# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Which mandolin for Calace?

## Jordan Ramsey

Hey All,

I've recently become obsessed with the Calace preludes, specifically the recording and book that Detlef Tewes put out on Edition 49.  I realize that if I truly want to work on these I'll need the right tool for the job, but I'm an F5 hound and know absolutely nothing about bowlbacks.  Can you all point me in the right direction in terms of what kind of mandolin would be best suited for this material and where on earth to find one?  I would guess the obvious answer is a Calace, but I don't think Detlef is playing one and I really love his sound.  Does anyone know what kind of mandolin he's playing in the video linked above?  Also, I read an old thread* where Ali Stephens says she preferred the size and sound of her Embergher over Calaces.  Not sure which direction to go and know absolutely nothing about the different styles in relation to size, sound, comfort, etc.  Also, I'm not really finding any Emberghers or Calaces for sale online.  Am I looking in the wrong places or are they rare?  Thanks for any information.

*While searching the forum tonight I came across this old thread and a beautifully poignant quote from Ali about her mandolin, "Baby".  Made me tear up a bit, RIP Ali.

"Jim, of course, is spot on about my "beloved baby"...... we're joined at the hip I'm afraid..... I've had him for nearly 20 years now and he sounds better than ever....roll on another 20....and another 20.....hopefully I'll still be hacking out Calace on him then.....might leave a few notes out by then though......!! Then, hopefully, someone else will enjoy a faithful 60 years with him after me....Glad the sound samples are going down well......
 All the best
 ALI"

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## Tavy

Looks like a modern German made instrument?  I suspect that pick and string choice will have a big effect on the tone he achieves as well...

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DavidKOS, 

Jordan Ramsey

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## DavidKOS

You could play the music on your F5 as long as the fingerboard extension is still there and is still fretted.  Use a pick more like what a classical player would use rather than a big thick round pick, and you're good to go.

Those F5's were invented to play classical mandolin music. Personally I prefer a bowlback, but you can use any mandolin with a full-length fingerboard.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## vic-victor

F5 is a right tool for classics, as shown by Chris Thile. But if juggling between Embergher and Calace, E. is superior. There is a stunning fully restored Embergher Orchestra Model 3 for sale by Lutherie Decorte in Belgium (if not sold already), but I am afraid it is a fairly expensive buy.

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DavidKOS, 

Jordan Ramsey

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## Martin Jonas

According to his homepage, Detlef Tewes plays a mandolin made by Manfred Bräuer.  There doesn't seem to be a web page for that maker, and the instrument's looks and tone seem to be a little bit different from most modern German bowlbacks.  

For what it's worth, there is a (very) young German luthier called Christoph Weis, whose homepage says that his mandolin design is modelled after Bräuer's.  No idea how good he is -- his mandolin photos look lovely, but it looks like his No. 8 instrument is dated Nov. 2014, with at least some of them being guitars, so there are very few examples out there.  On the other hand, a young luthier only just establishing himself may be more affordable and have a less full order book than some of the big hitters in German mandolin making.

Generally, the choice of instrument for Calace's composition is mainly personal.  The composer (obviously) wrote for his own mandolins, but as you have found, Ali Stephens used her Embergher.  She recorded a lovely album of Calace's mandolin & piano music for Naxos using her Embergher 5bis.  That album sounds very different from Tewes, so you can take your pick as to what type of tone you would prefer.  Other good examples of Embergher tone on the Calace preludes are the Youtube videos by Ralf Leenen and by Sebastiaan de Grebber.

Martin

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DavidKOS, 

Jordan Ramsey, 

Rick Schneider

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## Jordan Ramsey

Thank you for the replies, everyone!  @David, yeah, love my F5, and have played a lot of classical on it, but it's a Sam Bush with the factory florida-ectomy and 21 frets...  lacks the range to deal with most of the preludes.  @Martin, thanks for your input, I'm still getting my bearings in terms of Italian vs. German sound.  As far as possible vintage mandolins for sale or newer commissions...  I'll probably have to err on the side of fiscal caution with this purchase, as this instrument will mostly live in my practice room.  Based on availability and price, I've been looking at newer Eastmans or possibly older Japanese models, etc. (which would both be Italian style, correct?).  Regardless of style, I'd like a big sound with moderately easy setup, fretboard extension, and solid intonation all the way up the neck.  Any recommendations for other options that might fit these criteria without breaking the bank would be much appreciated.  Thank you all for any leads or other information!

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DavidKOS

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## vic-victor

The easiest one in your part of the world will be a good quality USA made bowlback. There are decent instruments around and they certainly do not break the bank while doing the job just fine.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## margora

"I've recently become obsessed with the Calace preludes, specifically the recording and book that Detlef Tewes put out on Edition 49. I realize that if I truly want to work on these I'll need the right tool for the job, but I'm an F5 hound and know absolutely nothing about bowlbacks. Can you all point me in the right direction in terms of what kind of mandolin would be best suited for this material and where on earth to find one?"

Dear Mr. Ramsey,

Very glad to see your post!  Several comments:

--The Tewes recording is excellent (I have a review forthcoming in the CMSA Mandolin Journal). As pointed out above, it is recorded on a modern German mandolin with a standard Wolle pick.  Other integral recordings are Gertrud Troester (OOP, but available from time to time on Ebay and other sources and Julien Martineau (readily available).  In its day the Troester was a revelation and it is still serves very well as a reference recording.   She recorded it on an early 20th century Calace.   I like the Martineau recording a lot (I reviewed it very favorably) and it is recorded on a modern Calace. 

--I have a three part article in the CMSA Journal that discusses the history of the Calace preludes, the skill set necessary to play the pieces, and a detailed walk-through of Prelude #2 (which I play and have performed in public several times on a Collings MT2, as well as a German Seiffert flatback).  PM me if you would like a copy.

--regarding which instrument to use, Calace wrote these pieces with the sounds of his own mandolins in mind and performed them (at least it is believed that he did the mandolin preludes, it is known for certain that he performed the preludes written for liuto cantabile on one of his own instruments) as such.   I know of no evidence that Emberghers were used to play this music in the early 20th century (e.g. no evidence that Silvio Ranieri ever performed them); ca. 1950s-60s, Hugo D'Alton and Guiseppe Anneda did.  I personally prefer this music on an authentic Calace (some an analogous Japanese instrument, such as an Ochiai) or a modern German instrument over an Embergher.

As far as carved back mandolins go, the Calace preludes likely made their way to the US around the time of their composition via Pettine.  His student Albert Bellson (the brother of the famous drummer) gave a performance of Prelude #1 in Salt Lake City in 1921 (the earliest public performance of any of the Preludes in the US that I can personally document) and again in Minneapolis in the late 1920s; he played #2 in 1933 at the annual convention of the American Guild of Banjoists, Mandolinists, and Guitarists (the predecessor of FIGA).  All of the Bellson performances were on Gibson instruments, the first two definitely on an F-4; the 1933 might have been on his Lloyd Loar.  The Bellson performances demonstrate that American carved back instruments were used in this repertoire shortly after it was composed (Calace wrote the pieces from ca. 1908-1920s) and thus are not anachronistic in any sense.  More recently, there are modern performances of #2 on carved back instruments by Paul Hooper (the great Australian player), Mike Schroeder (whom perhaps you know/heard of) and Mike Marshall (whom I am certain you have heard of).

--someone seriously working on these pieces should accumulate the various editions as well as manuscripts, as there are small discrepancies.   All of Calace's music is freely available on the web, including his own published versions of the Preludes (and the mss for the Gran Preludio).  I personally like the Beer-Demander/Gallucci edition published by Les Productions d'Oz.  Marga Wilden-Husgen has also issued edited versions of some of the preludes.

--Calace wrote his method with the idea that the Preludes (and other concert works of his) were the goal, and several of the exercises are intended to develop the necessary skill set.  This, as well as other practice material, is discussed in Part 2 of my Calace article.

--as noted above and reiterated by other commentators here, there is nothing anachronistic about performing this music on an F-5, so I wouldn't give it a second thought (and haven't, since I have performed this music on a Collings.  Other commentators above mention the need for many frets, but this is a very minor issue that, again, I wouldn't worry about). But if you wanted to go the bowlback route, say a Calace, one can certainly order directly from the source (www.calace.it). Not that long ago Victor Kioulaphides ordered a low end Calace directly from Calace; having heard it in person several times it is a perfectly satisfactory instrument (after, I believe, he got it set up in the US).   Carlo Mazzaccara usually has several early 20th century Calace instruments that he has restored for sale; he can be contacted through his website or on Ebay.  There are other sources in Italy.   If you send an email (info@trekel.de) to Trekel asking for assistance about a German-style instrument, I am sure that Maren Trekel would be happy to help you.

Good luck with these.   They are central to the repertoire for solo classical mandolin.

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DavidKOS, 

John Uhrig, 

Jordan Ramsey, 

kvehe, 

mikeyes

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## Jim Garber

Jordan: I think you will need to educate yourself on the differences among the various styles of bowlbacks. 

First of all, you are playing a Sam Bush F5 which AFAIK has a wider neck. The Roman/Embergher style has a very narrow neck with a radiused fretboard in comparison with the Neapolitan Calace/Vinaccia style which still would have a narrower neck than your SB. The German mandolins I believe have a wider neck than the Italian bowlbacks but aside from the very different design are generally voiced for Thomastik strings. The tone is meant to be mellow to blend with a classical guitar. Very different from the Italian sound which has emphasis more on treble and mid-range.

Take a listen to Sebastiaan de Grebber playing Calace on a Cerrone-made 5bis Embergher (one of the best of its kind):



As Bob says above it is a matter of preference of what sound you want. If you like the German tone then go for that. IMHO it will work on whatever sounds good to you. BTW another choice might be a 20s Lyon & Healy with Thomastiks.

Not Calace but nice tone from Marissa Carroll's style B:

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DavidKOS, 

John Uhrig, 

Jordan Ramsey, 

Rick Schneider, 

T.D.Nydn

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## margora

"Based on availability and price, I've been looking at newer Eastmans or possibly older Japanese models, etc. (which would both be Italian style, correct?)."

The Eastman is a perfectly fine instrument for the money.  There are two available currently (or were a few days ago) at Bernunzio in Rochester NY.  By "possibly older Japanese models" I am guessing you are referring to Suzuki or equivalent.  These are often available refurbished on Ebay from various Asian sources.  It is a gamble buying one of these sight unseen from the US but, putting this aside (because the prices are still pretty low) one of the higher end Suzuki's (M30-M50) should be fine (I used to own an M-30. It was a good instrument for the money).  It will still likely need a setup in the US.  Dave Hynds (in France) restores old bowlbacks for modest prices and is very reliable; in the last month or so he had an early 20th century low end Calace for 500 pounds, very attractive instrument, good sound.

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DavidKOS, 

Jordan Ramsey

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## Jim Garber

My caveat is to make sure that you will like the tone of the Eastmans or other bowlbacks. I played one years ago and did like it, but I had been playing bowlbacks for many years. It is a big jump in tone from your F5 to Italian style bowlback. Make sure if you can that you can sit and play one for a decent amount of time. Very different even holding and many people I know, even classical players, give up after awhile mainly because of a different way to keep it stable on your lap. 

Also, if you are enamored of Mr. Tewes playing and his tone, then an Italian style bowlback (like Eastman) might not be what you want. I would still take a look at Lyon& Healy mandolins. They are out there and if you get one in good shape it would not be as radical a transition as it would be to go to a bowlback. Just my 2 cents.

Also, check some of the other threads on classical playing. IMHO there is not one mandolin that would be considered a "classical" mandolin even back in the early part of the 20th century. Some played bowlbacks and some didn't.

That is not to say that I don't like bowlbacks. Look in my closet sometime. I have piles of them. But they are very different from an F5.

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DavidKOS, 

Jordan Ramsey

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## DavidKOS

> Thank you for the replies, everyone!  @David, yeah, love my F5, and have played a lot of classical on it, but it's a Sam Bush with the factory florida-ectomy and 21 frets...  lacks the range to deal with most of the preludes.


Now that sounds like a good excuse to buy a new mandolin! :Mandosmiley:

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Jordan Ramsey

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## Jordan Ramsey

Wow, thank you all so much, really great information!  I'm going to continue to research thoroughly before I drop any cash.  I am in no hurry, happy to take my time and find the right instrument.  I'll keep you updated as I go along, thanks again.

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## tkdboyd

> Wow, thank you all so much, really great information!  I'm going to continue to research thoroughly before I drop any cash.  I am in no hurry, happy to take my time and find the right instrument.  I'll keep you updated as I go along, thanks again.


Mr. Ramsey you are already a monster musician, I am very much looking forward to hearing you dig deep into Calace. Your YouTube video of Notturno-Cielo Stellato if fantastic. 

I have 3 inexpensive entry level bowl backs and 1 that I would consider a mid-level, I would think a player of your ability would need to jump into the deeper end or you'll be disappointed.

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DavidKOS, 

Jordan Ramsey

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## Beanzy

In case it helps when looking I think the main differences I notice in having a Calace are;
Scale length, I am much less constrained in when and whether I shift on the shorter scale instrument than on the carved top a etc.
Volume, the Calace is loud, really loud whenI need it to be and the whole mandolin top & bowl are vibrating except with the quietest playing. My other bowlback instruments are not nearly as lively.
The bass end response is very good, sometimes too dominant unless I rein it in, so there are aspects of playing and control that come with that liveliness which may not bea factor with other instruments ( Embergher models and copies I've played weren't the same in this respect)

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DavidKOS, 

Jordan Ramsey

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## margora

I have been FB messaging with Tom Edskes (one of the excellent guitarists with HET Consort) over the past 24 hours about early 20th century performances of the Calace preludes.  Tom found a reference in one of the Dutch mandolin journals of the era of a radio performance of Prelude #10 by Franz de Groodt in the late 1920s, for whom Calace wrote the piece ca. 1920.  De Groodt played an Embergher mandolin, so AFAIK this is the earliest performance of a Calace prelude on an Embergher mandolin that has been reliably documented.

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DavidKOS, 

Jordan Ramsey

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## Jordan Ramsey

Doing my best to resist selling the car, what timing!

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/93547#93547

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## Jordan Ramsey

A '97 Ford Taurus, btw, not sure selling it would even cover the shipping :Smile: .  Got an email in to Natalia for price and pics, we'll see.

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## Bob A

Shipping should be around 1-200 dollars, with insurance. There should be no import duties/customs fees, as the mandolin is over 100 years old, and thus an antique, per the regs. It should be so noted on the customs forms by the seller. It's not a particularly fancy instrument, from what little I can see of it, so the price should be commensurate. I'm not current on Calace prices, but the whole deal should end up in the low four figures, I'd imagine. 

If I were in your place, I'd probably go for it. That's why I have so many mandolins, and so little in the way of dollars and sense. Life is short. Consider it tuition, and bear in mind that the Euro is down, and you will likely get your money back if you decide to part with it eventually.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## Jordan Ramsey

Thanks, Bob.  Natalia's asking $2800, so I'm guessing that would put it at around $3000 to my door.  Not sure I can go that deep for this one, but I'm still scheming and dreaming :Smile: .

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## Manfred Hacker

Maybe you should also check out the guy's webpage who did the restoration work (if you haven't already done so):
http://www.woll-mandolinen.de/E_vers...tartseite.html

Mr. Ramsey, I put all the blame on you if I start lusting after one of these now ...  :Smile:  :Mandosmiley:

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Jordan Ramsey

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Mr. Ramsey, 

Here is a video with the II PRELUDIO (Op.49) by RAFFAELE CALACE (1863-1934) performed by Ferdinand Binnendijk in the church of Ripalimosani (Campobasso), Italy. With this performance, and two others, he won 1st prize during the 8th 'RAFFAELE CALACE' Contest for mandolin solo in 2011. 
Ferdinand played a 1930 Raffaele Sr. Calace mandolin with, if I remember well, a tortoise shell plectrum of the Neapolitan 'egg-shape' design.


By the way, the Belgian mandolinist Franz de Groodt not only played Roman concert mandolins by Luigi Embergher and Domenico Cerrone; he also is known for using the concert mandolins made by the French luthier Lucien Gelas... .


Anyway, good luck with your search for a fine Raff. Calace concert mandolin!

Best greetings,

Alex.

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brunello97, 

Jordan Ramsey

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi again,

Here is a photo showing Mrs. Annamaria Calace, me, Maestro Raffaele Calace Jr. and the President of the Italian Mandolin Federation Artemisio Gavioli conscientiously discussing the 'ins and outs' of the very same Raffaele Calace mandolin Ferdinand used during his performances at the Raffaele Calace contest.


Best greetings,

Alex.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## Jordan Ramsey

Hello Mr. Timmerman, 

Thanks for your posts, what an amazing performance by Mr. Binnendijk!  The Gibson mandolin I play was a contest prize at the RockyGrass festival here in Colorado, I won in '08.  I've also placed in the top five at the National Mandolin Championship in Winfield, KS a number of times.  I have the utmost respect for competition players, especially those playing Calace!  Would love to attend the Calace competition one of these years.  

In the meantime, I've concluded that the larger scale of my Sam Bush (1 & 3/16 nut, wider fretboard, string spacing, course spacing, etc.) combined with my "bluegrass" string gauge and action is making it very difficult to even practice the Preludes (currently working on II, XI, and XV).  I do not have a budget for a serious concert mandolin right now, but I need something with a smaller scale to practice on less I hurt myself (I'm a little sore after only two weeks of working on these with the Bush).  Just found this on craigslist last night:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/msg/5375359331.html

Sound sample should come tonight, if the sound is OK I'm thinking about pulling the trigger.  Guy says the intonation is really good all the way up, but the tone is a little tight / needs to be played.  Any thoughts from the experts?  Will this be a good interim instrument until I can get myself a worthy concert mandolin?

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DavidKOS

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## Beanzy

One of our trio plays an '87 version of that one and it sounds fine. Not as open and boomy on the G as the earlier ones from the '20s, but plenty of good sound to work with. Certainly if I were in your shoes I'd go for that approach. As for the sound you end up with, you can so radically alter the sound of these instruments that I wouldn't even worry about the sound clip. Get it in yer mitts and you'll be tweaking this and that for the next few years anyway.
The next part will be the great string journey  :Chicken: 

While making the transition to the bowlback it's a good idea to decide now what type of player you want to become. Will you be a lap, leg, strap or free holder. 
Will you be a crouched, upright sitter or a strutter? 
Then there's the pick picking process, whole other thread there.

It is a journey and you're already bringing a shed load of experience to this it should be a fascinating one for you, and interesting for the rest of us to see what you find on your road.  :Popcorn: 

Fingers crossed for this initial step.  :Mandosmiley:

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Jordan Ramsey

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## minuteman

> Hello Mr. Timmerman, 
> 
> I've concluded that the larger scale of my Sam Bush (1 & 3/16 nut, wider fretboard, string spacing, course spacing, etc.) combined with my "bluegrass" string gauge and action is making it very difficult to even practice the Preludes (currently working on II, XI, and XV).


Just wanted to say that I had the same problem to an extent. I learned mandolin from the older bluegrass pickers in my family and ended up with a Breedlove KO. Huge frets, wide nut and neck, long scale. Then I was introduced to Calace, Gioviale and the like. Now I've got girly hands and fingers also which compounded the problem. I could never make the stretches for some Duo Styles, and my fingers kept landing in the wrong place for the highs. 

Then one year the wife bought me an old Suzuki bowlback (No.45) as a gift and there it was. The sound and the feel I was looking for. Smaller frets, thinner neck, shorter scale, vibrant sound and no plunk, etc. The Neapolitan style mandolin was built for this style of music and in my opinion is the only thing for it. I was also surprised at how the shape of the bowl aids in dropping the left hand where it needs to be. 

Just my 2 cents. Hope it helps.

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DavidKOS, 

Jordan Ramsey

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## Jordan Ramsey

Thanks, you all!  I think I am going to get it, I've been staring at that ad all day.  Definitely feeling some of that old excitement and obsession that I had when I first started playing bluegrass mandolin at age 20.  I think the size difference will immediately aid in my ability to practice this material.  Also, I'm assuming that a name brand will hold it's value well when I decide to upgrade.  

Already thinking about logistics...  I'm fairly round in the front, so I believe I'll be an upright sitter, mandolin on my right leg on a footstool player, but I really won't know until I get the thing in my hands.  I'll definitely need some type of sticky pad to keep it stabilized in that zone.  I've been pondering pick and strings also, what little research I've done has led me to Dogal strings and picks as a starting point?  Any suggestions for these and other accessories much appreciated.

Thanks again, everyone.

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## minuteman

I use Dogal Calace RW92B strings for mine and love them. As far as picks, I've never tried the Dogal but they are on my list. Currently I use the Clayton Ultem picks in 1.2mm. 

If you end up trying the Dogal picks, be sure to let us know an opinion.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## tkdboyd

That is a great deal on a Calace in the US with those appointments, I think you will do no wrong getting that. Glad it wasn't on Ebay or the classifieds, I might have jumped on that one. 

I have a couple of Dogal plectrums, they can get you a sound that is unique to a lighter built mandolin, but I figure you'll want a stiffer pick on that Calace. I could easily be wrong though. The Dogal's work on getting a more traditional sound on one of my over built Suzuki mandolins. Never know until you get it into your hands. Am certainly looking forward to you playing it!

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Jordan Ramsey

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## Beanzy

I'm using DR Rare mediums (with the hexagonal core) I have used Tomastick, Dogal, and Dulop Elixir in the past, but for cost/ sound the DR ones are my favourite so far. They have a real clang to the sound that only the Dogal Calace strings had until I found these.

I just looked at your YT vid of you playing " Joy Spring" (nice job) and reckon if you keep the left hand position there and relax the right elbow in to your side, then the bowl will position just right under your sternum for your picking hand if you let it go high up and central. With the shorter scale it's important to let it shorten from the right bringing the instrument more central, rather than trying to twist your left arm around or pull your right elbow back (recipe for tension there) The deeper bowl naturally brings the strings out to where the F type would have the sweet spot you normally pick, but at a steeper angle from the body. Once you spend a bit of time getting the feel for it you'll likely find the position of your picking hand and fretting hand are probably able to remain almost as is, just make sure you relax the right elbow in to your side once you are on the shorter instrument, rather than shunting everything to the right as I have seen some people do.

As for the picks etc. You've a good relaxed hold which gives a good tone, so I'd say but start with what you know there, then as you get used to the instrument then experiment using that as your reference. I've taken to making my own & after a good few hundred experiments have come up with my pick shape, it really does become that personal as you get to know the instrument and respond to its feedback.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## LadysSolo

For sticky pad for your lap go to Lowes (or whatever home improvement store is in your area,) and get some non-slip shelf liner. Works great, and for ~ $6.00 you will have more than you will need for the rest of your life. Have fun!

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Jordan Ramsey

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## margora

"Just found this on craigslist last night:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/msg/5375359331.html

Sound sample should come tonight, if the sound is OK I'm thinking about pulling the trigger. Guy says the intonation is really good all the way up, but the tone is a little tight / needs to be played. Any thoughts from the experts? Will this be a good interim instrument until I can get myself a worthy concert mandolin?"

This is one of the lower end Calace's.  I own an example of this model.  It will be satisfactory for its purpose.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## margora

"For sticky pad for your lap go to Lowes (or whatever home improvement store is in your area,) and get some non-slip shelf liner. Works great, and for ~ $6.00 you will have more than you will need for the rest of your life."

Sooner or later, the home improvement non-shelf liner may damage the finish (the luthier Dave Cohen wrote about this in the CMSA Journal).  Much better to get the real thing from Trekel.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## margora

"The Neapolitan style mandolin was built for this style of music and in my opinion is the only thing for it."

As I pointed out in my posting and have written about in the CMSA Mandolin Journal, there is a long tradition in the US, dating back to WWI, of playing the Calace Preludes on long (by classical standards) scale American carved-back instruments (and Munier and the other Italians).   The vast majority of Germans who play this music do so on Seiffert-style instruments with wide fingerboards.  I've performed #2 several times on a Collings MT2 with no problems (and have no lh difficulties playing any of the others on the Collings) and sometimes play #2 on a Weber alto mandola with a 17inch scale (to be fair, with modifications to a measure or two where the scale length is indeed, too long).  The type of mandolin, strings, pick, etc. is much less important than the proper technique.

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Jim Garber, 

Jordan Ramsey

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## Jim Garber

> I've recently become obsessed with the Calace preludes, specifically the recording and book that Detlef Tewes put out on Edition 49.  I realize that if I truly want to work on these I'll need the right tool for the job, but I'm an F5 hound and know absolutely nothing about bowlbacks.  Can you all point me in the right direction in terms of what kind of mandolin would be best suited for this material and where on earth to find one?  I would guess the obvious answer is a Calace, but I don't think Detlef is playing one and I really love his sound.


It's been an interesting journey from Jordan's original post. Altho I am a fan of the Italian sound — Calace (or other Neapolitan mandolin) with Dogal Calace roundwound strings — this is very different from the German sound that Detlef Tewes gets. I assume that you are aware of that. Nevertheless it is not a bad thing to try a bowlback but, as Mr. Margo notes, not entirely necessary.

As I also noted on post #9, some classical players prefer the Lyon & Healy sound with Thomastik strings. Most of the Lyon & Healy mandolins, especially those made in the later years, have the shorter scales that some classical players prefer. My favorite is my 20s Washburn-labelled L&H pro with a 13 inch scale.

As far as picks go, I would experiment, regardless of what mandolin you end up with. The Dogal picks are (I believe) just tiny pointed celluloid picks. I believe that Bernunzio carries them. I am sure I have a few but they did not impress me or were especially suited to my playing. 

I have tried many picks including the Roman/Ranieri style picks which require a much different technique. I generally stick to jazz size picks and play with the pointy end. For some time I used John Pearse jazz picks (Carlo Aonzo was using them and might still) but usually just use the same Bluechip jazz I use for other musics I play.

BTW the Germans, in their general effort for mellow tone prefer a sort of small rubbery pick made (or sold) by Woll.  Here is a thread about *classical mandolin picks*. Here is anther: *classical style plectrum*. As you can see many players prefer a wide variety with no absolute just sensitivity to tone and playability.

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DavidKOS, 

Jordan Ramsey

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## DavidKOS

> "Just found this on craigslist last night:
> 
> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/msg/5375359331.html
> 
> Sound sample should come tonight, if the sound is OK I'm thinking about pulling the trigger. Guy says the intonation is really good all the way up, but the tone is a little tight / needs to be played. Any thoughts from the experts? Will this be a good interim instrument until I can get myself a worthy concert mandolin?"


You'd have to try it and see what it feels and sounds like.




> It's been an interesting journey from Jordan's original post. Altho I am a fan of the Italian sound  Calace (or other Neapolitan mandolin) with Dogal Calace_ roundwound_ strings


I wish I could find the section of some classical mandolin book where it is made clear that the old Italian tone was roundwound, not flatwound strings. 

I also don't really get the German soft rubber picks.

----------

Jordan Ramsey

----------


## Jim Garber

> I wish I could find the section of some classical mandolin book where it is made clear that the old Italian tone was roundwound, not flatwound strings.


I think we just need to follow by example (sorry for sound quality — the best I can find) Aonzo and Orlandi all play with Dogal Calace roundwound carbon steel strings. Carlo plays a modern mandolin made by Gabriele Pandini and Orlandi (I believe) plays one made by Calace:

----------

DavidKOS, 

Jordan Ramsey

----------


## Jordan Ramsey

> It's been an interesting journey from Jordan's original post.


It certainly has, I've learned a ton.  Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread.  Although I still love the recorded tone of the German instruments, I haven't completely made my mind up on preference.  I think both can be incredibly beautiful in the right hands.  I did realize that I wanted something sooner rather than later and a smaller scale and budget had to be my two big priorities right now.   I ended up pulling the trigger on the low level Calace, it'll be here Thursday.  Something that was easy with a decent price to get acclimated with, I look forward to moving up the rungs (and possibly sideways in terms of style and sound) as my skill, ear, and pocketbook grows. 

Thanks again for all this invaluable information,

Best,

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## DavidKOS

Welcome to Bowlback Land, home of the original mandolin and mandolin playing styles!

----------

Jordan Ramsey

----------


## crisscross

> I also don't really get the German soft rubber picks.


The Wolle pick, that most German mandolin players use, is neither soft nor rubbery. It's quite thick, but even the softer one isn't rubbery.
There's a Wedgie pick that is real soft and rubbery. I tried one once but it was impossible for me to play with it.

----------

DavidKOS, 

Jordan Ramsey

----------


## DavidKOS

> The Wolle pick, that most German mandolin players use, is neither soft nor rubbery. It's quite thick, but even the softer one isn't rubbery.
> There's a Wedgie pick that is real soft and rubbery. I tried one once but it was impossible for me to play with it.


It sure isn't a stiff Italian style pick, but thanks for the correction.

----------


## vic-victor

Jordan, please let us know how do you like your new Calace when it comes. Thanks.

----------


## Eugene

Late to this game, but "aye."  I'm curious to know how your quest concludes.

----------


## John Uhrig

Sooner or later, the home improvement non-shelf liner may damage the finish (the luthier Dave Cohen wrote about this in the CMSA Journal).  Much better to get the real thing from Trekel.[/QUOTE]

To Robert.........I can't seem to find this on the Trekel website. Could you post a link to it ? 
Thanks  John

----------


## margora

The Trekel non-slip cloth may be found at http://trekel.de/de/zubehor/9473-zup...th35x35cm.html

----------

John Uhrig

----------


## Jim Garber

> Sooner or later, the home improvement non-shelf liner may damage the finish (the luthier Dave Cohen wrote about this in the CMSA Journal).  Much better to get the real thing from Trekel.


If you are worried about destroying the finish you can also get some chamois leather which will work rather nicely. You don't have to buy it from Germany. After awhile I ended up not using anything and just found a way to hold the mandolin so it does not move while seated. I did find it easier on more demanding pieces to use a guitar foot rest to raise one leg. I go the cheap folding one on Amazon and it works fine.

Also, as far as strings, Dogal Calace RW92B are the dolce or very light strings and are recommended for vintage bowlbacks. When I played a modern Pandini it was strung with the medio strings which are RW92. I would guess that those medium strings would be fine on your modern Calace mandolin. Bernunzio has them *here*.

----------

DavidKOS, 

John Uhrig

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Sooner or later, the home improvement non-shelf liner may damage the finish (the luthier Dave Cohen wrote about this in the CMSA Journal).  Much better to get the real thing from Trekel
> 			
> 		
> 
> To Robert.........I can't seem to find this on the Trekel website. Could you post a link to it ? 
> Thanks  John


There may of course be differences depending on the precise formulation of the mandolin varnish, the type of shelf liner and the temperature, but in my personal experience I haven't had any problems with this.  I used to have the shelf liner stored inside the case permanently in contact with the bowl for years, without adverse effect, for my Embergher as well as Ceccherini.  While I don't do that any more (I now store the shelf liner in the space around the headstock), I'm fairly confident that the much shorter periods of contact between bowl and mat during playing won't unduly endanger the finish.

Martin

----------


## margora

"There may of course be differences depending on the precise formulation of the mandolin varnish, the type of shelf liner and the temperature, but in my personal experience I haven't had any problems with this."

I have.   Dave's article explains why this might happen.  I have had no problems since switching to the German product.

----------


## Eugene

I also use no tractionny substance between me and bowl.  It just feels natural now.

----------

DavidKOS

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## Jordan Ramsey

Hello All, sorry on the delayed response.  Got the Calace around Jan. 1st and immediately decided that it was not the right situation for me.  Just got confirmation that it's back home safely.  Bottom line, my ear has become accustomed to a voluminous, resonant sound with my current mandolin (which I've played exclusively for almost eight years).  Any mid-level instrument (especially a different style) is going to be disappointing to my ears.  It only cost me $150 to learn that I'd rather save my money and get something spectacular.  Geez, why didn't you all tell me :Smile: .  

The Calace was beautiful, and it was wonderful to have a full day with that shape and size.  Definitely takes some getting used to, but I did start to find some comfort.  I'm certainly dependent on the sticky pad and an elevated foot when sitting, but also had some success with standing up and holding the instrument to my chest.  Overall, I feel like I will be able to adjust when the right instrument comes along.  The neck size was very comfortable.  

Now that I know I will be playing these pieces on my wide-neck, long-scale F5 for the foreseeable future, I've been really concentrating on trying to relax when stretching and using as little pressure as possible. Also, incorporating more arched wrist (similar to the German players?) on some of the larger stretches.  I'm getting really close on XV, I'll post a video when I get it smoothed out.

Thanks,

----------

DavidKOS, 

tkdboyd

----------


## DavidKOS

> I also use no tractionny substance between me and bowl.  It just feels natural now.


I've never used any of those cloths and have had no issues with holding bowlback mandolins, ouds, Greek bouzoukis, etc.




> Hello All, sorry on the delayed response.  Got the Calace around Jan. 1st and immediately decided that it was not the right situation for me.


Well, just keep playing the pieces - and keep looking for a bowlback you like.

----------

Jordan Ramsey

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## Martin Jonas

> I've never used any of those cloths and have had no issues with holding bowlback mandolins, ouds, Greek bouzoukis, etc.


I think your profile picture may explain why -- there are a number of different techniques for holding and playing bowlbacks and this determines whether you need a slip mat.  From your picture, it looks like you're holding your forearm parallel with the strings so that your arm touches the rim of the mandolin more or less on the tailpiece.  With that hold, there is no rotational torque on the bowl and therefore no need for a slip mat.  An alternative technique involves having the forearm at about a 20 to 30 deg angle with the strings so that the arm touches the rim a few centimetres above the tailpiece.  That will exert a rotational torque and with a round bowl you either need to press the forearm very hard on the instrument to keep it in place (not recommended as it limits the movement of the arm) or increase the friction between bowl and leg.  Neither technique is wrong and both can be found in illustrations in old mandolin methods.

Martin

----------

Jordan Ramsey

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## DavidKOS

> I think your profile picture may explain why -- there are a number of different techniques for holding and playing bowlbacks and this determines whether you need a slip mat.  From your picture, it looks like you're holding your forearm parallel with the strings so that your arm touches the rim of the mandolin more or less on the tailpiece.  With that hold, there is no rotational torque on the bowl and therefore no need for a slip mat.


I don't rest my arm on the tailpiece and sometimes the arm is more in the other position you mention. But I've been playing bowlback mandolin  since I was 15 or so in 1972 and Greek bouzouki since 1975 or so, and I guess I'm pretty used to holding them even standing (although I have a strap for the bouzouki).

me holding bowlback lutes



oud



baglama saz



dutar



Greek bouzouki



and the only picture of my first bowlback

----------

Martin Jonas

----------


## Jim Garber

> Well, just keep playing the pieces - and keep looking for a bowlback you like.


I still contend that you may not need a bowlback _per se_ and may get the best tone (and satisfaction) from a shorter-scaled carved mandolin such as a Lyon & Healy or a modern version. That way you may not need to jump through hoops and completely and radically change your posture and playing technique especially when working on the high level of musicianship required for the Calace virtuoso pieces.

----------

Jordan Ramsey

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## Jordan Ramsey

> I still contend that you may not need a bowlback _per se_ and may get the best tone (and satisfaction) from a shorter-scaled carved mandolin such as a Lyon & Healy or a modern version. That way you may not need to jump through hoops and completely and radically change your posture and playing technique especially when working on the high level of musicianship required for the Calace virtuoso pieces.



Duly noted, Jim.  I saw the L&H model B in the classifieds a couple of days ago, would definitely be interested in trying one.  My problem is, by the time I pay for shipping to and fro with all these mandolins I want to try, I'm not going to have any money to buy one.  Ultimately, I think I'm going to have to luck into the right combination of financial readiness, ease of access, and guaranteed sound quality. Thanks for the input, I'll keep checking in here as it goes along.

----------


## DavidKOS

> I still contend that you may not need a bowlback _per se_ and may get the best tone (and satisfaction) from a shorter-scaled carved mandolin such as a Lyon & Healy or a modern version..


That would work too, of course. I just thought the OP wanted a bowlback. I really like those L and H mandolins, though.

----------


## Jim Garber

David: I am certainly an advocate for bowlbacks, as I know you are and a few of the inner circle of the Loyal Order of the Bowl here, but I figure he was looking for a sound before a particular instrument. I know quite a few folks who got their bowlbacks and then reverted to carved instruments either because they prefer a certain tone palette or find that the adjustments they have to make to play the bowlbacks are way different from how they play the more customary mandolins.

In addition, an L&H with T-I strings might be fairly close to the German sound he liked in his original post.

----------

DavidKOS, 

Jordan Ramsey

----------


## Eugene

I'm also an advocate for bowlbacks.  I simply like the sound and feel in this context.  The better vintage American mass-production pieces might be a good place to explore affordably if you have some vintage savvy and can assess playability.  I also hear pretty substantial difference between the vintage Calace's (ca. '20s) and their modern production.

Regarding Lyon & Healy archtops (styles A, B, and C), I think they are some of the most elegant (especially the asymmetric A) and comfortable archtop mandolins to have been produced, but do try one before you commit.  The sound is different than oval-holed Gibsons, e.g., and might also not be to your liking.

----------

DavidKOS, 

Jordan Ramsey

----------


## DavidKOS

> Regarding Lyon & Healy archtops (styles A, B, and C), I think they are some of the most elegant (especially the asymmetric A) and comfortable archtop mandolins to have been produced, but do try one before you commit.  *The sound is different than oval-holed Gibsons, e.g., and might also not be to your liking*.


It's definitely to my liking, and would probably get an L & H before a similar vintage Gibson.

----------

Jordan Ramsey

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## Jordan Ramsey

Hey All, I pulled the trigger on this mandolin last night.  It should be here next week sometime.  



I know it has issues, but I got it for a song.  My plan is to put money into it and get it up to prime playing condition, if not fully restored.  Based on the pictures, what can you tell me about the possible work that will need to be done.  Seller says the crack has been "stabilized".  Not sure what that means.  The armrest is obviously aftermarket, and appears to be screwed into the top or binding.  Something's weird with the nut.  The case looks to be in great shape, though (super cool!!!).  Here's what the seller said:




> Raffaele Calace, (1863 - 1934) was a world famous mandolin virtuoso and mandolin luthier.  This instrument is the work of his hands and bears his signature dated 1913 along with the gold seal and has great drive and resonance.  It was made in Naples, Italy and although not all original, it is a beautiful and rare instrument.  Fortunately the work that it received was professional.  The dealers label is from Switzerland.  I do not know how it traveled to an estate sale in Aiken, South Carolina.  It comes in the original solid wood case.
> 
> A thin crack in the soundboard has been stabilized and the original tail décor has been replaced with walnut.


Thanks for any information and advice.

----------


## Beanzy

I own a later 1922 model and can certainly vouch for the resonance comment. They're a mandolin well worth bringing fully back to par.
The good news about the armrest is that they're the kind of thing you could knock up from a decently thick piece of pick-guard modern faux tortoise material for scratch plates. I also have one which has a softer black plastic armrest the one on my 1922 model has a couple of tapering curved blocks which the armrest is attached to.

You'll get great value out of that. Congratulations on getting it.

----------

Jordan Ramsey

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## Jordan Ramsey

For later comparison, still needs some work.

----------

Eugene

----------


## Tavy

> I know it has issues, but I got it for a song.  My plan is to put money into it and get it up to prime playing condition, if not fully restored.  Based on the pictures, what can you tell me about the possible work that will need to be done.  Seller says the crack has been "stabilized".  Not sure what that means.  The armrest is obviously aftermarket, and appears to be screwed into the top or binding.  Something's weird with the nut.  The case looks to be in great shape, though (super cool!!!).  Here's what the seller said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for any information and advice.


That looks basically OK to me - the arm rest is horrid but can be replaced, no doubt needs a good setup if not an actual  refret.  I've no idea what "stabilized" means in relation to a crack either - either it's been repaired or it's not - from the photo's looks like it might be all glued up already.  Based on a casual look at the photos looks like you found a good one there - let us know how you get on!

----------

Jordan Ramsey

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## tkdboyd

> For later comparison, still needs some work.


I would play $59.95 Rogue mandolins for the rest of my life if I could play like you! 

Congrats on the Calace!

----------

Jordan Ramsey

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## Martin Jonas

> That looks basically OK to me - the arm rest is horrid but can be replaced, no doubt needs a good setup if not an actual  refret.  I've no idea what "stabilized" means in relation to a crack either - either it's been repaired or it's not - from the photo's looks like it might be all glued up already.  Based on a casual look at the photos looks like you found a good one there - let us know how you get on!


I agree with John that this looks a nice one.  I think two aspects will need looking at when you have it in your hands: the nut and the action.  The nut is as sketchy as it gets: a piece of wood with eight equally-spaced grooves.  A new nut should be fairly easy.  The fact that the previous owner was happy with that nut (and that arm rest!) rather undermines any claims for professionalism in previous repair works.  None of the photos are very clear on the action, but the side-on shot of the whole mandolin suggests it may be high.  If so, some work on the bridge may resolve this if the neck angle is OK (which it seems to be).  With this type of bridge, the easiest way of lowering the action is to lower the ledge which supports the bone saddle insert.  That way, there is no need to refit the base of the bridge to the soundboard (assuming it's a good fit to start with).

As to strings, while I agree with the sentiment that Dogal Calace are the default choice, I would also consider the Fisoma Consort strings.  They have a wound A string which gives better tone consistency across the courses, greater stability in tuning, and (possibly most importantly) intonate better with a non-compensated bridge as on this Calace.

Martin

----------

Jordan Ramsey

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## Jim Garber

I am not sure where the crack is located— is that the one on the base side of the fretboard on the body? In any case, I agree with Martin and John's assessments. It is very hard to tell from the photos but there may be some slight warpage on the top so make sure your luthier does check all the internal braces. 

As far as strings, I still prefer the Dogal Calace roundwounds (RW92b dolce) which can actually be bought here in the US —*Bernunzio* has them. Fisoma AFAIK are much harder to get here but IMHO not worth the extra cost to ship from Europe. Actually, Jordan, if you do want to try a set of the Fisoma Consort I may have a set I can give you. I have to check my stash.

----------

Jordan Ramsey

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## Martin Jonas

> Actually, Jordan, if you do want to try a set of the Fisoma Consort I may have a set I can give you. I have to check my stash.


They changed the A strings in the Fisoma Consort set a few years ago.  It used to be aluminium flatwounds, which had a problem with the windings coming undone.  The new sets have the A strings with the same construction as the D and G: polished bronze roundwounds (similar to the d'Addario flat tops).

I've never used the Calace strings as they're not sold in either the UK or in Germany as far as I can tell, so I don't have Jim's experience of side-by-side comparison.

Martin

----------

Jordan Ramsey

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## Jim Garber

Martin: it looks like you can get Calace RW92b sets from *Thomann* in Germany. *Schneidermusik* also carries lots of Dogal strings but, for some reason no mandolin ones. perhaps they can order them for you if you deal with them for other things.

They would be very different from the Fisoma ad they are carbon steel vs. 80/20 bronze. I like the sweetness and purity of tone of the Calace strings. They also last a long time. When I still had my Pandini (picked out by Carlo Aonzo) it came with medium gauge Calaces and I never strung it with any other for the decade or so i used that as my primary bowlback. As for the vintage bowlbacks I like the dolce Calaces. I strung my Vega with them and it sounded wonderful to my ears. YMMV, of course!

It does look like *Big City Strings* has Fisoma Consorts but I would make sure to check whether they have them in stock.

----------

Jordan Ramsey

----------


## Jordan Ramsey

Thank you all very much for the information, I'm really excited to see the condition in hand.  I'll take it to a local shop for a good once over and new nut.  As for strings, I actually ordered the RW92b set from Bernunzio's right after I won the auction.  They should beat the mandolin here.  Thank you, Jim, for the generous offer to try the Fisomas.  I'm going to give the Calaces a go first, but might be interested in experimenting down the road.  If the Fisomas have a wound A, would you need a different nut and bridge slot set up?  Updates to come upon arrival.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Thank you, Jim, for the generous offer to try the Fisomas.  I'm going to give the Calaces a go first, but might be interested in experimenting down the road.  If the Fisomas have a wound A, would you need a different nut and bridge slot set up?  Updates to come upon arrival.


You're unlikely to need a different nut: the wound A is 15w which is much the same as the plain A in other sets.  As for the bridge, you don't have bridge slots as such with the style of bridge on you Calace. It's a bit like a zero fret: the slots are simply spacers and can (and should) be comfortably wider than the strings.  The actual saddle is unslotted and sits on a ledge in front of those spacers.  What will be different with the wound A is bridge compensation.  With this style of bridge, the saddle is usually straight without any compensation.  Using a plain A string is likely to intonate slightly sharp, which is why the A slot is set back a bit on compensated bridges.  You don't need compensation with a wound A, so intonation should be slightly better assuming otherwise equally good setup.

There are plenty other options in classical strings, by the way, from makers unknown in the US.  Optima used to claim their chromewound strings are the most popular mandolin string in the world, for example, which I have no way of verifying.  I have used and like their 80/20 bronze-wounds, though.

Martin

----------

Jordan Ramsey

----------


## T.D.Nydn

What I think is really great is that the first Calace pieces played in this country were on Gibsons....Jim Garber,you are right,,the blue chip jazz is the best pick by far I've ever used right now. I use the Jazz LG 35...the thin one,and it makes my mandolin just sing..

----------


## Jordan Ramsey

Hey guys, what can you tell me about this Calace mandolin?:




It seems to be the same model as the one I'm getting, and possibly close to the same year based on the front "port holes".  I noticed it has more frets and a replacement bridge (with compensated saddle?).  Were extra frets added / fretboard changed, or is this a different model?  Also, what kind of strings would you guess?  They have red wrap around the ends, and seems to have a steel A string.  I sent Izumi a facebook message with garbled google translated Japanese asking him about all this equipment.  He has not responded :Smile: .  I really love the tone he gets here.   

Based on Martin's statement about the bridge, I'm thinking it will it be in my best interest to get a replacement bridge to solve intonation issues?  Where would be my best option for parts in this situation?  

Thank you all,

----------


## vic-victor

Congrats on your purchase. It is Calace's most famous "Brevetto 900" model, sometimes called D-hole model. The first one appeared in 1900 and Calace family were making them all through the 1900's up until 1950's. The bulk was produced between 1900-1920 and later models in the same style are available, but not so common, possibly special orders.  There were several grades of that model. Yours is an orchestra model. Soloist models had fluted backs. It does make sense to make a replacement compensated bridge as it is improves the sound and intonation.

----------

Jordan Ramsey

----------


## Jim Garber

Izumi has some unusual technique for a classical player notably posting his pinky and some eccentric fingering. He is an excellent player tho and I agree his tone and playing are wonderful.

----------

Jordan Ramsey

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Also, what kind of strings would you guess?  They have red wrap around the ends, and seems to have a steel A string.  I sent Izumi a facebook message with garbled google translated Japanese asking him about all this equipment.  He has not responded.  I really love the tone he gets here.   
> 
> Based on Martin's statement about the bridge, I'm thinking it will it be in my best interest to get a replacement bridge to solve intonation issues?  Where would be my best option for parts in this situation?


I suspect those may be the Optima chrome strings I mentioned in my previous email -- Optima strings have fabric-wound ends (as do TI, for that matter), and while from the visual these could also be flatwounds of either maker, the tone doesn't sound like flatwounds.  Jim: do Calace strings have fabric winding at the ends?

Regarding a compensated replacement bridge, as Victor has said that is indeed an option.  Another option is to replace only the bone saddle insert with one that has added compensation.  I have done this in the past with a Ceccherini mandolin with similar bridge design: see this old discussion thread.  This would also give you the option of switching between plain and wound A strings by swapping out only the bone saddle.

However, in the first instance you may just want to see how the intonation and tone are with the existing bridge and the Calace Dolce strings -- you may find that you are happy with it as it is.

Martin

----------

Jordan Ramsey

----------


## Jim Garber

Yes the Dogal Calace have thread wound on the ends. The dolce set I just looked at on my Martin are light blue. IIRC the medios are red. That would not surprise me that he was using those strings on  his Calace mandolin since the Japanese classical mandolin players have been big fans of Calace, both the music and instruments, since around 1905 when Raphael visited the country and performed there.

I agree with Martin about the bridge. That looks like it might be the original bridge so see how it intonates with new strings. I also like the idea of intonating a replacement insert (if necessary).

----------

Jordan Ramsey

----------


## Jordan Ramsey

Hey All, I received the mandolin today.  Unfortunately, it is not in playable condition.  I thought about returning, but I got it for such a good price I feel I should just invest as opposed to going through the hassle of return shipping and refund.  I got it to my luthier this afternoon for a quick glance.  Here are the major issues:

Neck:  Not straight.  Bass side is good, treble side seems to have been pulled or warped by string tension so there's a slight "twist" on the treble side.  The neck has been previously broken, although it seems the repair was done cleanly.  The frets are a mess right now, lots of them are unseated and the board is basically unplayable as is.  My guy said he could either plane the existing board or add a new fingerboard.  He favored the latter, but said that he would possibly have to use a rosewood shim that could be sanded if the neck is warped below the fretboard.

Cracks:  two major ones in the top.  Someone, at some point, put glue in the cracks, but light shines through both of them.  My guy said they seem stable and suggested just leaving them alone.  Said that trying to completely fix it could do more damage than good (that the cleats/dowels would add mass and stiffen the top, possibly not conducive to better sound).  I will certainly keep the instrument humidified to help prevent any further shrinkage.  Overall, it seems like the top is fairly straight, not warped.

Bridge/Nut:  Both need attention.  The bone insert for the bridge is missing, and the bridge has a slight warp in one of the pointy ends (doesn't sit flush with the top).  The nut is a total disaster, looks completely homemade.  Easy enough fix for both of these things.  My guy said he could try to compensate an insert for the original bridge, or we could just replace with a modern replacement that could be fully compensated.

Arm rest: the current replacement has been glued and screwed to the top, I'm assuming finish damage where it's been glued.

Tuners:  All knobs work, two buttons on the treble side are tight.  Hoping that opening up the case and lubricating will help.

The case is in great shape, as is the actual bowl.  

My luthier quoted me $1,200 dollars for a new fingerboard with possible shim, frets, bridge, nut.  Basically to just get it playable, not dealing with the armrest or finish issues.  This shop is routinely on the high side of the price scale, $600 for a board plane and full refret with stainless a few years ago on my F5.  He also will not be available to work on the instrument for another month or so.  In the meantime, I'm certainly going to shop around.  I'm thinking if I'm going to go that deep to get it playable, it seems like I might as well just save up money and go all out to get it fully restored.  Searches here yielded the name Yuriy Kovalev in New York as a primo repair guy for this type of situation.  Any other recommendations of folks in the US?  I know this has been addressed a few times without much consensus, thought I would ask again anyway.

Thanks for any advice/ information, all the best.

----------


## tkdboyd

Sorry to hear it has so many issues. Your situation as described has been a prime reason for me not taking the risks of 65+ year old mandolins. If I had a luthier around that I could trust I would be more inclined, but I haven't found one that I am completely comfortable with, so I have avoided what could have been fantastic instruments. I am glad to hear that you are at least contemplating getting it fully restored.  

I have nothing else to offer but best wishes!

----------

Jordan Ramsey

----------


## vic-victor

I'd consider return ( depending on what you've spent) or simply putting it aside as a fun project for later. $1200 can buy you a decent bowlback in Europe in a playable condition.  I'd contact well known luthiers there, they usually have one or two already restored mandolins for sale and that way you can be sure you are not getting a cactus.

And with the airfares between US and Europe so low it can certainly be a good excuse for a trip to Europe  :Smile:  That way you can try quite a few before you buy and enjoy it even more :Mandosmiley:

----------

Jordan Ramsey

----------


## brunello97

Hard to argue with Victor on this, but I haven't seen the mandolin.  It is a nice model.  Don't know what initial $$ + repair leads you to.

A <$1200 Calace on the Classifieds now., which isn't quite as lovely as yours once was (or might again be.)

But, hey, if you just got an invitation over to Victor's place, I'd recommend considering it.  :Wink: 

Mick

----------

Jordan Ramsey

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## vic-victor

Sure thing, but I am in Australia. If you want a decent classical guitar that can certainly be an option  :Smile:

----------


## brunello97

> Sure thing, but I am in Australia. If you want a decent classical guitar that can certainly be an option


Ahh.  So thats it, Victor.  I had you placed in St. Petersburg or Latvia or someplace exotic like that.  (Not that Down Under isn't.....)

Mick

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## vic-victor

I was born in Russia and actually have Latvian connections in a family, but living in Oz for nearly 20 years now...

----------


## brunello97

> I was born in Russia and actually have Latvian connections in a family, but living in Oz for nearly 20 years now...


DMIS, Victor, that is great to know. I was wondering about your tie-in to the area(s).  I worked with a Latvian architect for awhile when we were doing the new airport in Austin.  Was pretty proud to say I knew someone from there. (Texas remains pretty provincial.)

I _love_ this place.

Mick

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vic-victor

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## Beanzy

If it's lik my model you can flip any worn frets upside-down and dress them in. 
If you remove them all you could take the fretboard to level if needed.

I can send you a couple of images of the arm rests of two with a ruler for scale so you could copy whichever suits you. It's only cutting out some 2mm celluloid with a coping saw, then sanding to round the edges.

Maybe just rejoin the crack while under compression if it doesn't look good. It'll just be hot-hide glue. 

If you're anyway handy you could take it slow and go for it your self. You've got the forum to steer you.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## Acquavella

Hello, 

I would recommend contacting Brian N. Dean in Nova Scotia. He just restored an old Calace mandolin. If not Brian, then maybe Dan Larson (Minnesota, I think). If you have a higher end Calace it will be worth the investment to get it restored. $1200 bowlback mandolins tend not to be good enough for someone of your ability. They are good options for beginners or lower intermediate players. Based on what I've seen in your videos, you deserve a high quality mandolin. You want an instrument that will respond to any variation of your touch. That's my 2 cents. 

FYI - Detlef Tewes is playing a Seiffert model by Alfred Woll. He has been playing Woll's instruments for 3+ years now. Alfred is one of the best makers in the world. His instruments are incredible and super loud. I believe he has a 7 year waiting list at the moment. 

Anyways, best of luck to you in enjoying the Calace Preludes. Best wishes, 

Chris Acquavella

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Jordan Ramsey, 

Rick Schneider

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## Jordan Ramsey

Finally got it playable, still needs a lot of work.  I had the fretboard planed, frets polished and leveled, new bone nut, new bone bridge insert with compensation, removed the crazy armguard, glued and tightened up some seams and cracks, lubricated the machines.  Still need to fine tune the action and intonation (it's going back in on Monday).  Also need to get a replacement armguard.  Is Mazzaccara the best option, anyone in the US?   

I've only had it in hand for a couple of days.  I have to say, I'm thrilled with how it sounds:




It plays so much easier than my F5!  Night and day, half the left-hand pressure.  The difference in scale is substantial, as well, the larger reaches are much more accessible.  I've been playing it non-stop, totally enamored with the sound and feel.    

Thank you all again for helping me along this journey, all the best.

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crisscross, 

DavidKOS, 

derbex, 

fatt-dad, 

Tavy, 

vic-victor

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## Beanzy

Great news Jordan. That put a smile on my face here. It's great to see one of the mistreated ones brought back to life and played by someone who appreciates it. (Nice playing there too) It's also great that you're playing the music written for the instrument by the maker. Like stepping into an acoustic time machine.

I'll get some arm-guard pics including a scale up for you later. 
There's nothing really special about them that you couldn't get made locally by a competent DIYer if you're not up for having a go yourself. You can make them from wood, or something like this or this Carlo would certainly be a good one to get, he even has his own designs you can look at on the many pics of his mandolins.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## vic-victor

There were several versions of armguards for these models, the earlier ones were made of wood, the later ones were of celluloid. Just a couple of examples for you.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## Beanzy

Here are those photos 
 
oops! Upside-down, but it may still help...
  


Another design on a mandolin I still have to fettle up...

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Jordan Ramsey

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## DavidKOS

> It plays so much easier than my F5!  Night and day, half the left-hand pressure.  The difference in scale is substantial, as well, the larger reaches are much more accessible.  I've been playing it non-stop, totally enamored with the sound and feel.


And that's what it's all about - I'm happy the mandolin is playing again. That shorter scale will make some of those stretches easier for sure.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## mandobassman

> Finally got it playable, still needs a lot of work.  I had the fretboard planed, frets polished and leveled, new bone nut, new bone bridge insert with compensation, removed the crazy armguard, glued and tightened up some seams and cracks, lubricated the machines.  Still need to fine tune the action and intonation (it's going back in on Monday).  Also need to get a replacement armguard.  Is Mazzaccara the best option, anyone in the US?   
> 
> I've only had it in hand for a couple of days.  I have to say, I'm thrilled with how it sounds:
> 
> It plays so much easier than my F5!  Night and day, half the left-hand pressure.  The difference in scale is substantial, as well, the larger reaches are much more accessible.  I've been playing it non-stop, totally enamored with the sound and feel.    
> 
> Thank you all again for helping me along this journey, all the best.


Sounds amazing Jordan.  I have admired your playing since I first heard you playing David Peters' music.  You play Bluegrass with such power and authority and to hear you playing this style with such grace and so much tremolo smoothness is wonderful.  You are a fine musician and I always enjoy hearing you play.  Looking forward to more.

BTW, what strings and pick are you using in the video.  That has also got to be a huge change in what you are used to.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## DavidKOS

> Sounds amazing Jordan. .....
> 
> BTW, what strings and pick are you using in the video.  That has also got to be a huge change in what you are used to.


Yes, well done indeed. I should have complimented the playing in my previous post.

And I bet the setup is quite a departure from the BG mandolin setup.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## JeffD

> I've been playing it non-stop, totally enamored with the sound and feel.


There is a certain ancient magic in picking up and playing a bowl back. To see your own hands holding the object and to be aware, even vaguely, of the long long history of objects shaped like that in music, art, literature, folk culture, all over the world.

Whether you play Calace, Bach, Soldiers Joy, Bluegrass, Broadway tunes, parallel fifths or just stroke the strings.

To me it is and will always be a certain ancient magic.

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Bill Clements, 

DavidKOS, 

Jordan Ramsey

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## Bill Clements

Bravo, Jordan.  That mandolin deserves to be played by someone like you.
You are a fine player and I enjoyed your performance!

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Jordan Ramsey

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## Jordan Ramsey

Thank you all very much!  

I'll show those armguard pictures to my luthier and some of my handier friends, see if I can get something fabricated locally.  Is it just glued down?  Hot hide glue?  

The setup and playing position are both very different than what I'm used to, it will take some time to get acclimated.  I'm feeling a little more comfortable every day, got a few hours in this afternoon.  Really have to focus on sitting up straight, my tendency is to lean over the instrument and I'm noticing minor backaches.  Losing some weight would probably help the whole endeavor :Smile:  

@Larry, thanks so much.  I hope brother Dave is looking down smiling at this, I sure would have loved to hear him play this stuff on the Nugget A.  As for equipment, I'm using Calace strings by Dogal, the light gauge set.  I'm still trying to figure out which pick, I used a Wegen guitar shaped pick in the video.  Have also been experimenting with heavy Fender style celluloid, Bluechip TP 50, various thicknesses of nylon, and some organic material.  Not sure if I have a preference yet, all different.  Would like to try a thinner BC large jazz style.

I'll post more videos as I get stuff worked up.  All the best.

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## Beanzy

> I'll show those armguard pictures to my luthier and some of my handier friends, see if I can get something fabricated locally.  Is it just glued down?  Hot hide glue?


Yes, there are a couple of curved sloping pieces of wood, glued either side of the strings. 
Mine are trimmed with the same rosewood as the bowl. You can see their shape through the celluloid on a couple of the photos. Those are fitted to the top then they give support to the curve of the celluloid. I suspect it may have been been bent to shape first to allow it to be glued accurately. 
The black one is made from a fairly soft plastic which has a similar feel to something like one of those builders buckets. That has little registration pips matching tiny holes in the supporting wood pieces. But the celluloid one is just glued to them. I presume like much of the process they are made oversized and then trimmed once located.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## vic-victor

Looks like Beanzy's black plastic one is non-original  :Smile:

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## Beanzy

No it looks contemporary with the rest of the instrument which is 1926, (daubed on the bowl lining in ink) but I'm not sure what make that one is. 
It's definitely trying to look like a Calace, but it's not as well bound, a real Friday afternoon one if it is from the same house. Even the authentic one has plastic tuner buttons made from what looks like Galalith. You have to remember how much a part of the modernist thrust in music and luthiery these instruments were & I've see a good few with the same buttons.

I meant to say to Jordan; the ruler is so you can print them off to cut out as a template & check for size, but you'll need to allow a bit for the curve as shown.

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Jordan Ramsey, 

vic-victor

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## Jim Garber

Hi Jordan: Nice playing on that newly acquired Calace. As far as armrests, I would think the best would be for your luthier to work from the photos but I would be hesitant to use those for any accuracy. For one thing, the camera might capture some distortion and secondly the mandolins might have slightly different dimensions. Give the luthier the mandolin to make his/her measurements or leave it with him/her.

Here are a few more photos of Calace mandolins similar to yours in style and from circa 1913. It is hard to say whether these were installed by the shop or were aftermarket.

If it were me, I would go with something simple, elegant and functional and that will also allow you to change the strings easily.

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Jordan Ramsey, 

vic-victor

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## Jordan Ramsey

Little update.....   Still no armguard, but I've been playing the hell out of this thing.  It continues to sound great and I'm slowly becoming more comfortable with the logistics.  I've got Preludes 2, 11, 14, and 15 off the page, still struggling with putting them all together in time.  I'll get there someday.  Thank you all again, all the best.

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August Watters, 

crisscross, 

DavidKOS, 

derbex, 

Jim Garber, 

Rick Schneider, 

tom.gibson, 

vic-victor

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## Beanzy

:Smile: .  :Mandosmiley: 
Bravo! Jordan, this is just a great journey to follow. You're really on top of the new one now & it's a pleasure to hear.

 :Mandosmiley:

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Jordan Ramsey

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## Jim Garber

Lovely touch, Jordan. I love your playing.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## crisscross

Wow! Nice playing.
Back to the initial question: I guess it is possible to play Calace on an Italian bowlback as well as on a German style.
Searching Youtube for "Calace Prelude"; I found Katsia Prakopchyk


and Mochalova


Both seem to play larger German bowlbacks with flatwound strings, and to my ears, they also coax nice sounds from their instruments.
So the choice of the instrument just seems to be a matter of personal taste.
And as much as I admire Jordan's playing, I guess, If I had the chops, I'd go for the darker German tone.
At least as long as my ears are still sensible to high frequencies... :Wink:

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DavidKOS

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## Jim Garber

> Wow! Nice playing.
> Back to the initial question: I guess it is possible to play Calace on an Italian bowlback as well as on a German style.
> <snip>
> So the choice of the instrument just seems to be a matter of personal taste.
> And as much as I admire Jordan's playing, I guess, If I had the chops, I'd go for the darker German tone.
> At least as long as my ears are still sensible to high frequencies...


I think the discussion at the beginning of this thread covered as much ground as necessary. Personally, I do like the varied tones you get from all the aforementioned mandolins as well as even a Loar-style F-5 and Lyon & Healy carved mandolins. The tone you get is also dependent on the strings you play on, the plectra you use  — note that Ms. Mochalova switches to a different pick at the beginning of that movement in the video above — and to technique you use to play. 

It occurred to me... I wonder if violinists have long involved discussions on what they use to for a particular piece of music in terms of maker/style of violin (Strad, Guaneri, Amati, etc?) and type of strings. Come to think of it do classical guitarist have similar discussions?

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Jordan Ramsey

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## Beanzy

Yep, especially playing period music they do. Many have their pit instruments and a different solo one. 
Then there's the whole question of sound reinforcement in celebrity performances. Bridges get discussed too, and artificial vs real gut, e strings, synthetic vs real horse hair for the bow, bleached or unbleached? Rosin, which tree, from which place? Just as nerdy & niggly as us.

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DavidKOS

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## crisscross

> Come to think of it do classical guitarist have similar discussions?


Usually, classical guitarists play one instrument to cover the whole range of classical guitar music from renaissance to contemporary music in a guitar concert.
But there are players like Rob MacKillop who choose their guitar according to the music they play.
A Torres model for Tarrega


A Lacote copy for Sor



Concerning the two bowlback videos, I just saw them , liked the sound and thought I'll present them in this context here.

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DavidKOS

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## Rob MacKillop

I was surprised to see my face here all of a sudden. One of the problems with having an instrument for each style and period is, of course, the cost. Thankfully those two instruments were freely loaned to me by their maker, doubtless in the hope I would make a video for his website, where they can now be seen. I've been lucky in having a few luthiers lend me instruments, sometimes for up to a year. But it's always difficult to hand them back! I would have to be very wealthy to own all the instruments in my videos. 

As it happens, since the start of 2016 I've returned to having one classical guitar for everything from Renaissance to modern. I've been down the road and around the bend with the Early Music movement, and all the fascinating nerdy details that distinguish periods and styles. But these days I'm after a different kind of authenticity, one that (it sounds pretentious to say so) resides within me. There is something utterly authentic in, for example, Segovia's approach to music - he expressed himself through the instrument. He might have done everything "wrong" in terms of historical performance practice, but he had a straight-forward honesty in his playing that I find missing from more period-correct performances - not all, of course, but enough to make me rethink what it is to play music in the first place. 

But in mandolin terms, I'm a complete novice, and still learning the difference between instruments, strings, techniques, etc. I'm in no position to really give an opinion on the discussion at hand.

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August Watters, 

crisscross

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## crisscross

> I'm in no position to really give an opinion on the discussion at hand.


I wouldn't really call it a discussion. It's just that I found those two nice examples of Calace played on a larger German style bowlback and thought that this was the right place to share them. 
I for my part prefer the more mellow sound of flatwound strings, but as you say, the main source of the sound resides within the player.
Your approach of playing CG without nails and with right hand concepts similar to Sor's is at least as big a part of the beautiful sound you achieve as is the romantic guitar.

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Rob MacKillop

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## Jordan Ramsey

Update...  Got a rosewood armguard installed, I'm almost to the end of my second set of strings, and the old girl has taken her first (for me) flight.  Played some Calace in the Old Church in Portland as part of the River of the West faculy concert.  Still working on the Preludes, and have taken one duo style lesson from Evan Marshall (working on Ave Maria).  Having a ton of fun with this thing, here's the latest video.  Cheers,

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Bruce Clausen, 

brunello97, 

crisscross, 

derbex, 

Jim Garber, 

tkdboyd

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## vic-victor

Bravo! Very nice playing! Thanks for sharing the video. Your Calace really sings!

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Jordan Ramsey

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## Jim Garber

Nice playing, Jordan. That is one of my favorite Calace pieces, too.

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Jordan Ramsey

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