# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  No Power Tool Mandolin

## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Anybody here done this before? Got any tips or such? Any pictures? Maybe talk about how you went about it? Thanks.

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## j. condino

Luthiers have been doing it for 100s of years....

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DavidKOS, 

MikeEdgerton

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Luthiers have been doing it for 100s of years....


Yeah but I can't find any tutorials, videos, materials, or anything. I am completely clueless.

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## Bill McCall

Sort of depends on what 'no power tool' means.  Fell your own tree by hand, hand split, hand resawn, all the way down the line?  What about the metal parts?  Or plastic parts?  How much is to be sourced from suppliers?  

I think Roger Siminoff's book would be useful just because all the steps there could be hand done.  This assumes, of course, that you are familiar and competent with all of the hand tools required.  You have to make sides which are bent, top and back, cut and carved, kerfing, head and tail blocks, neck, fingerboard and the assorted joinery.  

I think if you think of making parts and assembling your manufactured parts, the process is a lot simpler than 'making a mandolin.'  Not without a fair degree of skill, just a lot simpler.

Just my $.02.

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## amowry

I built my first F5 with no power tools. I didn't fell the trees, but I did rip the wood by hand. Frankly, it's not something I would do again, but it's a good learning experience. Every power tool has its hand-tool equivalent, so the process isn't hard to figure out if you're proficient with the tools to begin with.

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hank, 

j. condino, 

John Lloyd, 

MikeEdgerton

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## HoGo

What kind of mandolin are we talking about? For simple pancake style you can read any classical guitar tutorial, just change shape of body and neck joint (dovetail or tenon). If we omit the resawing of wood the process is pretty simple and straightforward. If you have all the wood prepared you can start in the morning and have body and neck/ fingerboard ready in the evening (without binding). No big deal.
For archtop there are critical steps of cutting the body blocks, especially the scroll where you need cuts as close to square as possible to get good results. On A style it is much simpler.
I think you should google for individual processes, not a full start-to-end tutorial for mandolin.

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## John Kelly

Over the past  several years I have built 40+ instruments, mainly mandolin family but a few guitars too, and the only power tools I use are my bandsaw and drill press.  I could get by without the drill press, but would not like to be without the bandsaw.  I attended the excellent Stringed Instruments Making course at the old Anniesland College in Glasgow in 2004/5 and we were taught by three superb luthiers who were very much into using hand tools.  There is a great feeling of satisfaction in thicknessing a top or back or sides with a hand plane and shaping necks with a variety of rasps, files and spokeshaves.

I have never made any carved-top or f-style instruments, only flat tops, so thicknessing is a lot more straightforward than graduating a carved top, but I know builders who happily use miniature finger planes and gouges to form their carved tops, both on fiddles and mandolins.

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Inklings, 

Ron McMillan

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## Marty Jacobson

Very few power tools leave a "ready to use" surface. Whether it's a jointer or a CNC machine, I always clean up surfaces with hand tools before jointing or assembly. So you'd just have to do more of the roughing by hand.

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## Paul Busman

How do you do bindings without a router?

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## Phil Goodson

> How do you do bindings without a router?


Wayne Henderson says he did them with a pocketknife in his youth. :Smile:  :Disbelief:

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MikeEdgerton

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## Charles E.

> How do you do bindings without a router?


Use a purfling cutter with a single blade and a small chisel.

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j. condino, 

Jim Garber, 

MikeEdgerton

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## John Kelly

Paul, I use a cutter which a machinist friend made for me which is based on a violin purfling cutter but a heavier build.  It is adjusted to the required depth then drawn round the body of the instrument, first against the soundboard then against the sides.  This scores a deep line which I then use to guide a chisel to cut the channel to the necessary depth.  Takes a while longer than a router would take, but there is a lot more control!  I have the StewMac cutter attachment for a Dremel-type drill, but rarely use it after I had an experience where the cutter slipped in the collet and made a bit of a mess!

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Charles E., 

DaveMorehouse, 

Inklings, 

j. condino, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Pete Jenner, 

Smyrna5

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## JEStanek

I know this has come up in the past - but over 5-10 years ago.  Most of the builders who responded said it just wasn't worth the extra work.  Using power tools to hog out most of the tops and then do the fine close work by hand saved their joints and a ton of time.  If I recall Brian Dean was the most likely one to do more of the work by hand eschewing power tools. You can certainly build the entire instrument by hand, but what does that really give you? I'm unsure it increases the tonal quality of the instrument (I think that comes from building a bunch and learning how the pieces make the whole respond).

My personal feeling - and I'm not a builder - is I really love riding my bike but I'll use my car for my 25 mile commute each way.

 Jamie

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## MikeEdgerton

I rebuilt a kitchen one time using just hand tools, no power tools. It was tough but it did teach me a few things. It taught me that no matter how proficient I was with a hand saw I could never cut anything as straight as I could with my table saw and drilling with a brace and bit can be very tiring. If someone doesn't own power tools then by all means have at it. I'm sure there will some satisfaction in doing that way. Most luthiers I know mix hand work with power tools. In this day and age of CNC machines and such almost anything can be automated if one has the resources. I'm always pleasantly surprised when I take the Martin tour and see those folks sitting there with a 6 inch high stack of 2 X 2 squares of sand paper.

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## yankees1

I don't think Stradivarius used any power tools !  :Smile:

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## MikeEdgerton

> I don't think Stradivarius used any power tools !


He couldn't cut a straight line either. That's why the top of a violin is shaped like it is  :Cool:

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Jim Garber

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## Jim Garber

I guess the question I would ask the OP is what his need/intention is in only using hand tools. Do you have a political or artistic statement to make by building this way? Do you have limited resources and can't afford a full shop of power tools?

You can also get some of the grunt work done either by buying a kit or else by buying partly finished parts.

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## pops1

I use a bandsaw and a drill press. I prefer to drill by hand with an old Millers Falls. I also have a couple of really small push drills. I use an electric drill for things outside of the shop, but rarely in. I do have a 4" belt sander now that I think of it for quick things. Old tools are far superior to use than new. My block plane is from the 20's, most likely so is the Millers Falls drill. When I built my shop my uncle, who is a carpenter, asked if I had a air hammer. I said I breathe air and I hammer. He couldn'g believe I would use a hammer and do it all by hand, but it was much more pleasing to hear the nail going in than a compressor running all day.

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## j. condino

I had a fairly productive  five year spell where I sold all of my power tools and had an analog shop, except for a drill press, in an old historic building downtown.  About once every four months I would visit a friend's shop and buy an hour of time to re-saw boards and run a few through the thickness sander and jointer. I also built several instruments when I lived off the grid out in the desert with a funky hippee chick, felling wood by hand, collecting redwood logs off the beach, and heating hide glue on the woodstove. As cool as that was back in the day, thoughts of the woman in the teepee come up a lot more than thoughts of getting rid of my big bandsaw....

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Bill Findley, 

Doghouse01, 

Drew Streip, 

hank, 

JEStanek, 

Jim Garber, 

Joe Mendel, 

John Lloyd, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Nick Gellie, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## JeffD

I would think most of the hand tools available today were made by power tools. Just sayin...

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## Jeff Mando

When I was younger that's what I thought a "handmade guitar" was!

FWIW, I am old enough to remember when Dad brought home his first electric drill!  Boy, he thought his worries were over, now he could drill this and drill that...........before that we used the old brace and bit -- which I'm sure is still in a cabinet somewhere.  :Smile:

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## MontanaMatt

> I don't think Stradivarius used any power tools !


He had apprentices and or lackeys.  Tradesmen in a guild, not in isolation like a modern solo builder.

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Jess L.

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## JeffD

> I don't think Stradivarius used any power tools !


Meaning what? He didn't have the choice. If power tools were available who is to say he would not have taken full advantage of them.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> I know this has come up in the past - but over 5-10 years ago.  Most of the builders who responded said it just wasn't worth the extra work.  Using power tools to hog out most of the tops and then do the fine close work by hand saved their joints and a ton of time.  If I recall Brian Dean was the most likely one to do more of the work by hand eschewing power tools. You can certainly build the entire instrument by hand, but what does that really give you? I'm unsure it increases the tonal quality of the instrument (I think that comes from building a bunch and learning how the pieces make the whole respond).
> 
> My personal feeling - and I'm not a builder - is I really love riding my bike but I'll use my car for my 25 mile commute each way.
> 
>  Jamie





> I guess the question I would ask the OP is what his need/intention is in only using hand tools. Do you have a political or artistic statement to make by building this way? Do you have limited resources and can't afford a full shop of power tools?
> 
> You can also get some of the grunt work done either by buying a kit or else by buying partly finished parts.


Here are my reasons:

Have absolutely no power tools. 
Can't afford them either.
Don't have space for them either. 

A different satisfaction to build something completely by hand, and using no power tools. A cool different connection between you and the instrument. A whole different ambiance. 

Improve dexterity and patience.

I've seen it being done with guitars, and violins, but not arch-top mandolins. I suppose it would be sort of like a mix between the two.

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AMandolin

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> I would think most of the hand tools available today were made by power tools. Just sayin...


Sorry, but what does that have to do with anything?

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## Timbofood

This is a question which goes across so many fields.
I have had the discussion with regard to cooking and as far as Im concerned, if Escoffier had a Cuisinart, he would surely have used one! But, a brigade of minions to beat panade for Gougere, grate cheese, et al, can get the job done.
Having done all those projects by hand prior to the acquisition of the Cuisinart, I prefer the electric assistant, thank you very much.
So the answer to a lot of it is, yes you surely can but, if you can make the project less sweat driven, why wouldnt you?

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DavidKOS

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## pops1

I don't see why building your own mandolin without power tools would be bad. It would be rewarding. Building for a living, well you do have to eat.

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hank

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## HoGo

> I've seen it being done with guitars, and violins, but not arch-top mandolins. I suppose it would be sort of like a mix between the two.


My workshop is too small for powertools all I have is handdrill (pretty sloppy one) and old Dremel knock-off which I rarely use, mostly just for cutting pieces of tubing for sanding sticks and such.
I've made several of F-5's with 95% or more handtools - I visited my friend to use his bandsaw for cutting body blocks and rough cutting neck contours - that's all, on some I used his router for binding channels. I could cut the scroll blocks reasonably well in three or four layers glued together but it vwould be very hard (though not impossible) to do in one piece with hand saw.
To pass the complete information I even made many of my tools - I made my thumbplanes, few gouges, many of the jigs and thickness calipers, knives, bending iron etc... On latest builds I used spruce that I split and dried and maple that we brought right from the forest (but had it cut into wedge pieces at local saw mill).

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hank, 

j. condino, 

Jeff Mando, 

Jess L., 

Nick Gellie, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## j. condino

Turn off the internet, sell your computer and phone; you'll have plenty of $$$ to buy some tools and whole lot more free time to build a nice mandolin!

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Timbofood

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Turn off the internet, sell your computer and phone; you'll have plenty of $$$ to buy some tools and whole lot more free time to build a nice mandolin!


Sorry, but I live in a household with other people, and I am a high school student, so that is most definitely not an option. Also, my phone was $15 and I am using a school computer to post this so don't give me that crap.

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Jess L.

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## Jeff Mando

shop tools at school?

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## Chris Pritchett

What sort of character are you after? If you are aiming for a mando that would pass for something from a factory or professional workshop I can see it would be a challenge and satisfying if you succeed. The joy of 'hand-made' instruments though is that they reflect the individual character of the builder. I make violin-style mandolins, and do use power tools for roughing out, but every thing is finished with scrapers etc. and very thin finishes used so that the 'workings' are shown.

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hank

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Just wondering, would it be ok to not put finish on a mandolin? I don't know why, but I find wood's natural shade attractive.

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## Timbofood

Sure, you can opt not to put a finish on, but what do you do when it gets sweatstained and dirty?

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## j. condino

> Sorry, but I live in a household with other people, and I am a high school student, so that is most definitely not an option. Also, my phone was $15 and I am using a school computer to post this so don't give me that crap.


I made my first guitar when I was 12, as a high school freshman, while living in a household with other people, without a computer, with no personal power tools, without a phone, then played it in a band for four years and later sold it for $450....so I'll comfortably give you a TON of crap every chance I get!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :Wink:

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Charles E.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> I made my first guitar when I was 12, as a high school freshman, while living in a household with other people, without a computer, with no personal power tools, without a phone, then played it in a band for four years and later sold it for $450....so I'll comfortably give you a TON of crap every chance I get!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


No personal power tools. So using only hand tools? Or like a school woodshop? Because I don't have that either. I was annoyed because you told me to sell stuff for power tools when I don't have stuff worth that much.

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## rcc56

> Just wondering, would it be ok to not put finish on a mandolin? I don't know why, but I find wood's natural shade attractive.


An unfinished instrument will be prone to cracking.  You might want to check out French polished shellac or violin maker's oil varnish, or a combination of the two.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The fellow who made the joke about Strad's workmanship apparently has not seen one of his instruments.  When I saw an early Strad at Fred Oster's shop some years ago, the beauty and quality of the craftsmanship literally jumped out at me.  I had never seen an instrument where the quality of the work was so obvious from a yard away before, nor have I seen anything like it since.  Now I understand--  it wasn't magic varnish, it wasn't salt water, it wasn't "little ice age" lumber, it was the worker.  Fred offered to let me play it, but I'm a poor violinist and I didn't want to insult the instrument.  The very late Strads are a bit sloppy, but he worked until he was 93 and his vision and his hands were going.

I suspect that Strad wouldn't have minded a belt sander, bandsaw, and drill press, or for that matter, 5 or 6 grits of store-bought sandpaper.  But he and his colleagues didn't need them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you don't have space or budget for power tools, you will need a good curved-bottom violin maker's plane, a purfling cutter, and several good quality scrapers.  You can by the individual blades for the plane from a violin supplier and make the plane body yourself if you want.  The factory made planes are somewhat pricey.

There are several good books on violin making.  Ed. Heron-Allen's 19th century work is not only useful, it's also a good look into the history of the craft.  H.S. Wake's "Technique of Violin Making" is easy reading in modern English, also centered mostly around building with hand tools.  The carving and bending techniques are the same that would be used for hand building a mandolin.

Good violin suppliers are International Violin Company, Metropolitan Music, and Howard Core.  The first two might have somewhat softer prices.

I believe using hand tools can be good for building character and patience.  It can also be a bit stressful to the joints.  I worked strictly with hand tools except for an electric drill for years, also due to space and limited budget.  I now have a belt sander and a drill press.  The belt sander gets a lot of use, and I would rather not do without it.  I know how to work without it, though.  The drill press is more accurate than my hands.  But I can get away without it, too.  A bandsaw would be nice, but I don't have to have it.  I still have space limitations, and I'm naturally frugal.

The Larson Brothers did not get power into their shop until at least 1920.  They built hundreds of instruments without power tools.

Have at it and have fun.

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Jess L.

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## Jess L.

> ... I live in a household with other people, and I am a high school student, ... Also, my phone was $15 and I am using a school computer to post this...


I understand. 

Many people won't, though. A common erroneous assumption is that anyone on the internet has some fancy broadband connection and oodles of money for new computers, and that anyone who has a cellphone is enjoying a 'luxury' item and paying boatloads of money for the phone. Clearly neither of those things is necessarily the case, but many people don't realize that. 

I once spent well over a year using the Lynx text-only browser on a landline phone from home to do a free dial in (*not* dial-up, those are two different things) to the nearest rural library phone system to tie in with the library's network (when they still used to offer that call-from-home service) to read internet message boards using no pictures, no Javascript etc. It worked (steep learning curve for me, but it was manageable after an oldschool computer-geek friend showed me how to use it), and it was free,  :Mandosmiley:  and that combined with other cost-cutting measures allowed me to pay off some medical bills. Rather than paying for the then-best home internet which at that time was still 28k dial-up and still high priced at the time. 

Also, I don't know what the *high schools* are like where you're at, but there can be vast differences between different school districts. Some have a wide variety of excellent classes available, some have almost nothing beyond the basics. 

Some people still seem unaware of such differences,  :Frown:  they assume that all high school students have access to all the good classes - including things like wood-shop. 

In _my_ rural school district, the local school-tax levies had failed to pass (that district's local taxpayers didn't want to, or couldn't afford to, pay more property taxes to fund schools which many adults regarded as already doing a lousy job of educating the kids) so the school admins got revenge on the parents by eliminating *all* of the following useful classes: wood shop, metal shop, auto shop, basic electronics, drafting (they called it "engineering drawing"), architectural drawing, and of course art & music classes.  :Frown:  All gone. The only thing they didn't eliminate was football  :Mad:  because the parents would have had the admins' hides if football disappeared. But artsy stuff, and practical stuff that would help the kids to get a job someday, gone. 

I hope your schools aren't _that_ under-featured, but my point is - for those who don't already know (judging by some of the comments) - schools can vary greatly by region. In the example I cited above, a couple hours' drive away was a far different school district which offered all sorts of wondrous things that our school district *never* had even during its best times, such as orchestra, many types of different art and vocational classes... a world apart from what we had in our district during the exact same years. 

So anyway, I can appreciate your wish to build stuff with tools that are obtainable, and that can be used in a normal room without having to have a whole shop. 

At first, reading this thread, I don't think anyone knew what your motivations were. Could have been anything, even possibly a dislike of technology and fear/hatred of machines (I have relatives like that, they made it through the 1930s Great Depression when the saying was "machines put men out of work") or some other such motivation.  

But since you've clarified what your reasons are, I would hope that the woodworkers here would continue to offer useful advice as to how to proceed with your plans.  :Smile: 

If I may, one thing I would advise, is that wherever you set up your mandolin-building operations, make sure you have adequate cross-ventilation when doing stuff with finishes, glues, solvents, etc. Not only for your own safety, but so that the other people in the house don't complain. That was an issue one place where we used to live, my man was doing automotive body-work & painting in a below-the-house garage, and the *very* strong fumes came up through the walls into the entire rest of the house (via gaps around plumbing, wiring etc). You don't want to be breathing a bunch of solvent fumes etc, not good for the central nervous system.

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## Walt

Just throwing this out there for OP in case he hasn't considered it. While it may not be as fulfilling, there are solid wood mandolin kits available for about $115.00. A lot of the heavy-lifting is already done, but there is still a lot of room left for you to work on your mandolin building chops. It's a great way to start (especially if you do not have access to power tools). 
The other thing to think about is that you can also spend a not-insignificant amount of money on the hand tools you'll need to build from scratch. Bookmatching the tops and back will probably require you to buy a long jack plane and build a shooting board. You'll also need a lot of clamps. If you don't have a bandsaw you'll need a coping saw. You'll need chisels. A hand drill of some type and drill bits. For fretting you'll need a hammer, wire snips, and files. You'll need special gauged files for the nut. If you're building from scratch you'll have to bend the sides yourself--without a commercial side bender you'll need to build some apparatus for that, which will probably require a torch of some sort. 
I built a guitar from scratch after high school, thinking I would end up with something nice for pretty cheap. After buying tools and parts, and building all of the necessary jigs, I could have bought a nice used D-28. 
In contrast, I put together one of those $115 mandolin kits this past summer for the purpose of practicing my French polishing skills. For that kit, I think you could get away with having some clamps, a coping saw, sand paper, and whatever you need for finishing. It will allow you to learn how to fit kerfed lining, fit the neck, glue the back and top on the rims, install the tonebars, fit the bridge, finish the instrument, and properly set up the instrument. There's still a lot of room for customization to make it your own. Just a thought.

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Jess L.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Just throwing this out there for OP in case he hasn't considered it. While it may not be as fulfilling, there are solid wood mandolin kits available for about $115.00. A lot of the heavy-lifting is already done, but there is still a lot of room left for you to work on your mandolin building chops. It's a great way to start (especially if you do not have access to power tools). 
> The other thing to think about is that you can also spend a not-insignificant amount of money on the hand tools you'll need to build from scratch. Bookmatching the tops and back will probably require you to buy a long jack plane and build a shooting board. You'll also need a lot of clamps. If you don't have a bandsaw you'll need a coping saw. You'll need chisels. A hand drill of some type and drill bits. For fretting you'll need a hammer, wire snips, and files. You'll need special gauged files for the nut. If you're building from scratch you'll have to bend the sides yourself--without a commercial side bender you'll need to build some apparatus for that, which will probably require a torch of some sort. 
> I built a guitar from scratch after high school, thinking I would end up with something nice for pretty cheap. After buying tools and parts, and building all of the necessary jigs, I could have bought a nice used D-28. 
> In contrast, I put together one of those $115 mandolin kits this past summer for the purpose of practicing my French polishing skills. For that kit, I think you could get away with having some clamps, a coping saw, sand paper, and whatever you need for finishing. It will allow you to learn how to fit kerfed lining, fit the neck, glue the back and top on the rims, install the tonebars, fit the bridge, finish the instrument, and properly set up the instrument. There's still a lot of room for customization to make it your own. Just a thought.


Thanks, but I'm not really interested in that. I want to build my own mandolin from blocks of wood to a beautiful instrument.

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j. condino

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## Paul Busman

> Just wondering, would it be ok to not put finish on a mandolin? I don't know why, but I find wood's natural shade attractive.


I love the look of natural wood too and don't like to hide it. I also wouldn't want it to get all discolored by skin oils and other things that might come in contact with it. A clear protective finish takes care of that.

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## Dfyngravity

> Anybody here done this before? Got any tips or such? Any pictures? Maybe talk about how you went about it? Thanks.


I would recommend getting a couple books....

The Mandolin Project by Graham McDonald

And

The Ultimate Bluegrass Mandolin Construction Manuel by Roger Siminoff

With these two or either one, you will find all of the information, plans, and plenty of photos needed to build your first archtop mandolin. I would highly recommend starting off with an A style mandolin...the forms are easier to make, only two internal blocks, bending sides is a breeze, no point protectors, no scroll to carve and bind, and much easier headstock design.

You will just have to substitute the "hand" tool version of any "power" tool you see in the books. I don't know what hand tools you have, but I can tell you that you will become very frustrated with cheap basic hand tools. Virtually every step of the way you will find yourself in need for a tool that is a little more than just basic. And good quality hand tools are not cheap by any stretch. 

Here is a basic list of what you will need, beyond a proper workbench:

1. Sharpening Station- this can be as basic as a small flat piece of granite and various grits of sandpaper. Your tools need to be beyond razor sharp!

2. Card scraper and a burnishing tool 

3. A nice gouge...or several with different sweeps, especially if you don't have and/or don't plan on getting any small finger planes.

4. Handsaws- Tenon saw (I'd recommend a Japanese Dozuki), Coping Saw

5. Chisels

6. Hobby knife with interchangeable blades or pocket knife

7. Clamps, clamps, clamps, and more clamps. 

8. Some sort of bending setup- cheapest is a metal pipe and torch

9. Pencils 

10. Sandpaper and sanding blocks

11. A square and straight edge that is dead straight 

12. Hand drill

13. Rasps

14. Files

15. A couple different size rules....12 and 24"

16. Thickness calipers- small handheld calipers and a deep throat thickness gauge for measuring top and back plate thickness/ graduations

17. Finger and Palm Planes

18. A vise

There is probably a bit I am leaving off but this is a pretty good start. I would get the books and read them several times through and just figure out what you need to do to get each step done. Take your time with each step. If you find that you don't have the proper tool, don't simply make due with what you have. Get on here and ask questions....you will find that most builders on here are more than willing to share how they do it and give you multiple ways of getting through each step.

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Nick Gellie, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Rodney Riley

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...96#post1633096
Little more info on what he wants to do to make his mando.

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Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

How would I make a mould for the mandolin without having any power tools?

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## sblock

Yes, well.  Ambition and lofty goals can be good things, but it sounds to me like you may be biting off just a bit more than you can chew.  

Maybe you should ramp up to this enormous effort before you go, by learning how to cut, plane, and bookmatch tops and backs, bend sides, cut and install kerfing, install binding (without using a router!), carve and graduate thickness, apply finish, and so on, all on some practice pieces of wood?

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Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## rcc56

> How would I make a mould for the mandolin without having any power tools?


Very slowly.  I'm not being a smart alec.  You can take out some of the wood with a carpenter's hand saw and keyhole saw, next you'll have to rough cut it oversize with a saw that can cut a curve, then work it down to final shape with rasps and shaped sanding blocks.  And you'll need to figure a way to get the finished surface square.  A lot of work.

Depending on the mandolin's shape, it may be possible to build with an inside mold, which is easier to make.  It is possible to build without a mold, but you would have less control over the symmetry of the instrument.

You might want to consider borrowing a hand-held electric jig saw to rough it out.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Can somebody please tell me the circumference of your F5 mandolin body? I don't know how big my sides should be, because I haven't printed out my plans yet.

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## Jim Hilburn

Irving Sloane's guitar building books show a lot of how things are done with hand tools.

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Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## HoGo

Hez PaniniWar... It took you 47 posts to reveal you want to build F-5 and so far you never mentioned what is your background - What (hand) tools do you have and how well you can work with them. Just that you WANT to build beautiful instruments from raw wood with just hand tools. F-5 may be one of the most difficult instruments to build (if you wish it be really beautiful)...
I would suggest that your first study a lot about traditional instrument making. There are zillions of articles and tutorials on internet, perhaps none is start to end with hand tools but all you need is just substitute the handtools instead of the power tools.
If you don't hane good drawing get one, it's one of the most important things on the way to success. I spent few years drawing plans and preparing for the actul work before I started on my first build (almost completely done with hand tools). Now you have everything within few clicks so take the time to do the homework and study how it is done and after that you will be able to ask specific questions like "I have some scrap wood and tools x, y, z and want to start making mould for my F-5 build, what would you suggest?..."
There are many generous builders here willing to help you but you are making it hard or impossible.

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Timbofood

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## j. condino

> How would I make a mould for the mandolin without having any power tools?


+1000 for calling it a mould, not mold!

Cardboard will work for limited use. You can't  make 100 mandolins out of the same mould, but if you cut, stack, and glue cardboard, it can be a very rigid material that you can cut with an exacto knife or razor blade. I've used it very successfully for one off mandolins and guitars. Structural insulation foam will also work well, like the purple stuff they sell at home depot...

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Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Hez PaniniWar... It took you 47 posts to reveal you want to build F-5 and so far you never mentioned what is your background - What (hand) tools do you have and how well you can work with them. Just that you WANT to build beautiful instruments from raw wood with just hand tools. F-5 may be one of the most difficult instruments to build (if you wish it be really beautiful)...
> I would suggest that your first study a lot about traditional instrument making. There are zillions of articles and tutorials on internet, perhaps none is start to end with hand tools but all you need is just substitute the handtools instead of the power tools.
> If you don't hane good drawing get one, it's one of the most important things on the way to success. I spent few years drawing plans and preparing for the actul work before I started on my first build (almost completely done with hand tools). Now you have everything within few clicks so take the time to do the homework and study how it is done and after that you will be able to ask specific questions like "I have some scrap wood and tools x, y, z and want to start making mould for my F-5 build, what would you suggest?..."
> There are many generous builders here willing to help you but you are making it hard or impossible.


Haha, sorry I didn't make my intentions clear.  I have no tools yet, but I know what tools I need.  I realize how annoying I was probably being, asking you all every question that popped into my mind before I took the time to find out myself. However, I have been watching tons of videos on making violins, mandolins, and guitars, and read many books in the library, over the past week, and I have my plans ready for my mandolin, I just need to print it out now. I have a plan to build my mandolin in India, so now I'm pretty much set. All I need to do now, is practice and get my woodworking skills developed. Not sure how I will approach that, but I'll find some way. Thanks for taking the time to write that!

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> +1000 for calling it a mould, not mold!
> 
> Cardboard will work for limited use. You can't  make 100 mandolins out of the same mould, but if you cut, stack, and glue cardboard, it can be a very rigid material that you can cut with an exacto knife or razor blade. I've used it very successfully for one off mandolins and guitars. Structural insulation foam will also work well, like the purple stuff they sell at home depot...


Thanks! I never even thought about that! Great idea.

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## Bill McCall

The first rule is:  don’t get hurt learning.  The tools should be very sharp and can inflict serious damage to you.

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Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Marty Jacobson

My advice for building your woodworking skills is not to bite off too much at once. The most important things that contribute to a functional and lasting musical instrument are the same things that contribute to any other woodworking project.
In no particular order, the most important skills are:
- the ability to measure accurately
- the ability to transfer (mark) measurements accurately
- the ability to cut accurately (straight or curved)
- the ability to make a surface flat
- the ability to make two surfaces flat and join them together- perfectly
- the ability to make complicated surfaces (dovetails, scarf joints) fit together - perfectly

And a lot of other things... but if you can do that, your instrument will most likely work and not fall apart. It will probably also look nice. Ugliness in instruments usually comes from shoddy measurement, shoddy surface preparation, and shoddy glue joints.

Build some dovetailed boxes for your Mom or loved one first -- they'll think you are amazing, and you'll learn crucial skills which will stand you in good stead. You'll develop confidence, and learn what not to do (which is at least as important as what TO do).

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Jim Garber

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Ok, thanks for posting that, that should help.

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## Jeff Mando

I think most people can learn basic woodworking skills, but not everyone can be an "artist" with those skills.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I would say building an F-5 takes some artistry.

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Pranav Ajay Warrier, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

Back when I was young and full of juice, two very good builders advised my to first learn to sharpen a tool. At first it was nothing more than X-acto blades but, the lesson was critical! There was a time I thought I might have attempted to build a mandolin and I still toy with the idea. I’d start with something a little less complicated to get a feel for the tools than an F-5 though and I’ve got access to some really talented help! Maybe a few dozen boxes and then a pancake, every step on the trip is a point to learn. Look at as many instruments as you can get close to, measure (with permission) them, keep a notebook, listen, talk with builders when you can.  
One of the first guys told me “Draw your plan, it does a couple of things, givens you a feel for the form and it makes it YOURS.” It took me years to understand the value of that statement. Draw sketches at least, make your head understand the shape then, teach your hands how to make it. Like learning a tune, get it in your head and then tell the fingers where to go.
Jeff is right, there’s artistry in the F-5, especially the fine ones!

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Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

OK, you guys have made me realize that maybe I was being a little too ambitious when planning to make an F5. I still think that an A5 takes artistry too!  :Smile:  I should readjust my expectations again. I will practice the basics and perfect the needed skills first, like you suggest, and then plan on building the mandolin. I am a little lucky in the fact that I am a violin player, so I can look at the craftsmanship of my violin, which does help. I really appreciate the advice you all have been giving me, and you've all been so helpful. I will definitely take your advice.

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## Timbofood

“Your patience will be rewarded!”
Start by making some really beautiful simple items, hey, maybe some small boxes pf various shapes and sizes to hold small parts on your work bench use techniques which will benefit your end project (the F-5) make tools and clamps and make them with some respect to the pride you will have in what you plan on making. There are tons of plans for clamps, moulds, etc. when the tool is beautifully made, the resulting product will benefit from the time taken to get the shapes right!
My brother and I built an Adirondack Guide Boat from plans which were “Not recommended for the home builder!” the time we spent lofting the plans and making the patterns before starting the actual boat took us almost six months of almost every night after work but, the moulds could be used to make 100 boats! The design was complicated yes but, we took the time to get the lines “right” before we cut anything. I wish he’d never sold the boat!

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Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Inklings

+1 on the idea of making your own tools and fixtures.  I learned a lot about the nature of oak when building my cam clamps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSO5QFQhQk8

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Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Dale Ludewig

I'd like to add this. Visualization of what you're making before the tool hits the wood. It's easy to plow into something sculptural without having a complete grasp of what has to be carved away and what has to be left. I remember all too well my first F5 scroll back in about 1978. I'd been doing woodworking full time as my business for 4 years. I could move wood away. But I didn't understand the geometry of the scroll and binding "dance" that goes on there until I was finished and looked and realized- it sucked. It was basically an F5 scroll but it wasn't pretty. It was close, but close doesn't count. You have to get what isn't the mandolin out of the way. But if you take what Is mandolin away, you can't put it back. The detail involved in making an F5 is far more than anyone who hasn't done it can appreciate.

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Jeff Mando, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> +1 on the idea of making your own tools and fixtures.  I learned a lot about the nature of oak when building my cam clamps:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSO5QFQhQk8


Perfect timing, haha! I was actually just looking at how to build tools. The problem is, so far all I have is a coping saw and a normal handsaw. Do you think there is anyway I could make a chisel or gouge with that? I saw a video where a guy made a gouge with a spoon, and that looks like a good idea to me, but that's all I got so far. I don't have much money. I would have to slowly acquire a collection of tools, and that is why I am extremely interested in making tools. I started by buying the coping saw today. The chisel seems most important to me right now.Also, I was wondering, would I be able to do the same thing a plane does, with a violin carving knife? Planes are looking extremely expensive from what I've found, especially the finger ones.

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## Walt

> Perfect timing, haha! I was actually just looking at how to build tools. The problem is, so far all I have is a coping saw and a normal handsaw. Do you think there is anyway I could make a chisel or gouge with that? I saw a video where a guy made a gouge with a spoon, and that looks like a good idea to me, but that's all I got so far. I don't have much money. I would have to slowly acquire a collection of tools, and that is why I am extremely interested in making tools. I started by buying the coping saw today. The chisel seems most important to me right now.Also, I was wondering, would I be able to do the same thing a plane does, with a violin carving knife? Planes are looking extremely expensive from what I've found, especially the finger ones.


Be sure to check out garage sales, pawn shops, and craigslist. You might be able to find some cheap hand tools. Also, I don't know if you're still planning on a carved top, but if you decide to go with a flattop, you may not even need a gouge. 
As far as tool "hacks" go, my uncle and I built an electric mandolin when I was in high school. Well, he did most of the building, but he left shaping the neck to me. He sent me home with a box of broken glass and that's what I shaped the neck with. It worked amazingly well. This was fairly thick glass, so it was not prone to breaking in my hands. Still I used gloves. *If you try this, please, please be careful!* It essentially worked like one of these scrapers. An old broken mirror might be perfect.
Anyone have any tool hack ideas? Something cheap or free that will work in a pinch?

EDIT: Video showing a broken glass scraper.

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Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Inklings

> Do you think there is anyway I could make a chisel or gouge with that?


If you delve deeper into Paul Seller's channel on Youtube, you can see several tools, fixtures, jigs and the like that he has made.  He has even made his own spokeshave, in the process giving a wonderful tutorial on the basics of hardening steel, and forming ergonomically designed tool handles.

Could you make your own chisels?  Yes, I suppose you could.  But as Paul often states on his programs, a set of chisels from a corner hardware store, costing less than $5 per tool, will likely serve you okay, if they are sharpened.  I have nicer chisels, and I find they are better for fine work.  I've made due with the cheaper ones for years before acquiring nicer ones, and have managed to get things done.  Likewise, I've found that $15 planes from Home Depot can cut just fine, with time-consuming registration and sharpening.  You just need a flat piece of glass, some water to lubricate, and a lot of sandpaper.

I think your point about acquiring inexpensive tools in India is a reasonable one.  Perhaps purchase a suitcase as well, and pay to have the bag checked on your way home?  Given the incredibly comfortable nature of the punjab, and other local garments, there is no need to bring many clothes with you!   :Smile:

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Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

I am going to buy a pack of chisels and a plane from Wal-Mart, so my toolbox is slowly getting bigger! After that I'm going to buy wood and slowly start buying other stuff when I need it. Thank you all for your help!

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## Inklings

You're on your way!  Thankfully, patience and experience are relatively inexpensive - they just cost a lot of time.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> You're on your way!  Thankfully, patience and experience are relatively inexpensive - they just cost a lot of time.


Haha, you should put that on a t-shirt.  :Wink:

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## pops1

> I am going to buy a pack of chisels and a plane from Wal-Mart, so my toolbox is slowly getting bigger! After that I'm going to buy wood and slowly start buying other stuff when I need it. Thank you all for your help!


I would buy used tools from antique stores or swap meets, old tools may need sharpening, but the quality of the steel is far superior than what you will buy at Walmart. Most likely they will be cheaper too. You will appreciate that quality when you start working with the tools. I had a new block plane, but after getting a 1920's block plane I never used it again.

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Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> I would buy used tools from antique stores or swap meets, old tools may need sharpening, but the quality of the steel is far superior than what you will buy at Walmart. Most likely they will be cheaper too. You will appreciate that quality when you start working with the tools. I had a new block plane, but after getting a 1920's block plane I never used it again.


How do I find swap meets? I will check my local antique stores but I doubt I will find what I need.Also, what size chisel and gouge do you recommend? I am considering buying used ones on eBay because they look like higher quality ones like you said.

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## pops1

If you can find used old chisels from ebay or any source they should be a higher quality than what you will buy at any discount store selling steel from China. Decide what you are going to make, the tools you need, and look for them used. You will have to sharpen new chisels any way. I am not saying new chisels are not good, because there are good new chisels, they are not cheap. And they are not made in China.

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## HoGo

> If you can find used old chisels from ebay or any source they should be a higher quality than what you will buy at any discount store selling steel from China. Decide what you are going to make, the tools you need, and look for them used. You will have to sharpen new chisels any way. I am not saying new chisels are not good, because there are good new chisels, they are not cheap. And they are not made in China.


Sometimes pawn shops have tools for sale. 
I believe Paul Sellers in one of his vids shows cheap set of chisels (from amaon or ebay) that is quite usable and shows how to sharpen them razor sharp. Have a look at it and find the same brand.
Some of the cheap sets are realy poor - I was given a set where the chisels were not even heat treated, just mild steel that bends and nicks by just looking at wood, even the handles were not of seasoned wood and soon started splitting and ferrules fell down.
When I started I was high school student (14-15 yo) as well and all I had was dads electric drill, small block plane (using thick razor blades instead of real iron) and two ordinary chisels (NAREX - its local producer to me and their chisels are not expensive and work well) I believe they were 12 and 8mm. I also had a set of common hosehold tools available like hammer nippers screwdrivers etc. Later I got old thrown away 6 mm chisel that is quite good (doesn't hold edge too long but is super easy to hone). Later I got old worn wooden smoothing plane that I repaired and flattened. I made my first gouge out of plate of steel, hammered it cold over small modelmakers wise till I got smooth curve then heated over gas stove to red and dipped into water. Made handle out of piece of walnut wood, looked good bud never worked well as the edge was not properly hardened (that steel requires higher temps than typical carbon steel). The next gouge I made from butchers knfe sharpener (over 1" wide and 3/16" thick) I just put a grinding cylinder into electric drill and ground from one side till U had nice smooth shallow U shape... The steel is the hardest I've ever held in my hands (when my hand slipped and I cut into steel vise there was no visible nick on the edge) but was hell to sharpen but at least got me started... Making thumbplaned is simple, you start with a block of hardwood and dig the inside with chisel at correct angle for blade I made blade out of broken kitchen knife (long 1/2" wide for cutting cakes so not much work was needed) using just grinding cylinder in drill (the drill was held in small modelmakers wise) carefully not to overheat the steel. I used wedge out oof hard wood and drilled for small steel pin across the plane body to hold the blade and wedeg in place. (if you ggogle for thumbplanes and replace brass for wood, that's exactly it - I left the sides 1/8" thick). My most used thumbplane I poured from epoxy resin into mould made of pieces of veneers. I had to use flat bone (from soup) cap on bottom as the epoxy did wear too much. I made simple spool clamps and some closing clamps out of threaded rod and wshers/wingnuts I made purfling marker out of leftover piece of wood and some bolts and nuts laying around and another piece of blade from that kitchen knife.... I made solid maple banjo resonator with these tools alone, bent the sides in three layers of walnut and used strip of maple veneer on top. I made my first mandolin with these as well. I invested no more than $10 into buying tools - I bought ebony board from LMI but the rest of wood was just given by violinmakers who thought it not worth a violin. In the meantime I spent hours and hours studying literature (no internet back then) preparing drawings and experimenting with repairs of old broken instruments. These same tools worked out well for my first mandolin some 5-6 years later...

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John Kelly

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Sometimes pawn shops have tools for sale. 
> I believe Paul Sellers in one of his vids shows cheap set of chisels (from amaon or ebay) that is quite usable and shows how to sharpen them razor sharp. Have a look at it and find the same brand.
> Some of the cheap sets are realy poor - I was given a set where the chisels were not even heat treated, just mild steel that bends and nicks by just looking at wood, even the handles were not of seasoned wood and soon started splitting and ferrules fell down.
> When I started I was high school student (14-15 yo) as well and all I had was dads electric drill, small block plane (using thick razor blades instead of real iron) and two ordinary chisels (NAREX - its local producer to me and their chisels are not expensive and work well) I believe they were 12 and 8mm. I also had a set of common hosehold tools available like hammer nippers screwdrivers etc. Later I got old thrown away 6 mm chisel that is quite good (doesn't hold edge too long but is super easy to hone). Later I got old worn wooden smoothing plane that I repaired and flattened. I made my first gouge out of plate of steel, hammered it cold over small modelmakers wise till I got smooth curve then heated over gas stove to red and dipped into water. Made handle out of piece of walnut wood, looked good bud never worked well as the edge was not properly hardened (that steel requires higher temps than typical carbon steel). The next gouge I made from butchers knfe sharpener (over 1" wide and 3/16" thick) I just put a grinding cylinder into electric drill and ground from one side till U had nice smooth shallow U shape... The steel is the hardest I've ever held in my hands (when my hand slipped and I cut into steel vise there was no visible nick on the edge) but was hell to sharpen but at least got me started... Making thumbplaned is simple, you start with a block of hardwood and dig the inside with chisel at correct angle for blade I made blade out of broken kitchen knife (long 1/2" wide for cutting cakes so not much work was needed) using just grinding cylinder in drill (the drill was held in small modelmakers wise) carefully not to overheat the steel. I used wedge out oof hard wood and drilled for small steel pin across the plane body to hold the blade and wedeg in place. (if you ggogle for thumbplanes and replace brass for wood, that's exactly it - I left the sides 1/8" thick). My most used thumbplane I poured from epoxy resin into mould made of pieces of veneers. I had to use flat bone (from soup) cap on bottom as the epoxy did wear too much. I made simple spool clamps and some closing clamps out of threaded rod and wshers/wingnuts I made purfling marker out of leftover piece of wood and some bolts and nuts laying around and another piece of blade from that kitchen knife.... I made solid maple banjo resonator with these tools alone, bent the sides in three layers of walnut and used strip of maple veneer on top. I made my first mandolin with these as well. I invested no more than $10 into buying tools - I bought ebony board from LMI but the rest of wood was just given by violinmakers who thought it not worth a violin. In the meantime I spent hours and hours studying literature (no internet back then) preparing drawings and experimenting with repairs of old broken instruments. These same tools worked out well for my first mandolin some 5-6 years later...


Thanks for letting me know about this. I was under the impression that Stanley chisels and planes would have been good quality. I will do some more research on this.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

So do you all think this would be a waste of money? It looks good to me and has great reviews. The only bad reviews are about it not being sharp, but sharpening it would fix that. And this looks good as well.

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## pops1

> Thanks for letting me know about this. I was under the impression that Stanley chisels and planes would have been good quality. I will do some more research on this.


My 1920 stanley block plane is great, the new one not so much. The new one by the way was purchased like 30 years ago.

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## pops1

> So do you all think this would be a waste of money? It looks good to me and has great reviews. The only bad reviews are about it not being sharp, but sharpening it would fix that.


The best review said he put them in a vise and bent them, that would tell me they are not hardened. The worst review is most likely accurate. In reading those reviews and ad they said they strike the chisels, you know when you sharpen for this work you don't strike them. If you sharpen not to razor sharp you could strike a chisel, I have never used anything to strike my chisels. I only push them.

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## HoGo

Here is link to the video:
https://youtu.be/Ki8tt-VjwqI
he tells it cost some $8 for a set.
Try to find out what brand it is. Perhaps you will find the same set under various brands - the shape of handle, package and material (ash handle) will show it.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Here is link to the video:
> https://youtu.be/Ki8tt-VjwqI
> he tells it cost some $8 for a set.
> Try to find out what brand it is. Perhaps you will find the same set under various brands - the shape of handle, package and material (ash handle) will show it.


Thanks, right after I reread your post, I found it. It was called workzone and it is sold at Aldi's but apparently it is a seasonal product and nobody has seen to find the same exact ones. However, I will take pops1's advice and go for some ebay ones. They seem to be great steel and most are made in the USA, or Germany. They just need some fixing up to do. However, I would find it helpful if you or pops1 know the ideal size chisel(s). I am unsure if I need more than one or not.

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## HoGo

> Thanks, right after I reread your post, I found it. It was called workzone and it is sold at Aldi's but apparently it is a seasonal product and nobody has seen to find the same exact ones. However, I will take pops1's advice and go for some ebay ones. They seem to be great steel and most are made in the USA, or Germany. They just need some fixing up to do. However, I would find it helpful if you or pops1 know the ideal size chisel(s). I am unsure if I need more than one or not.


I would go for 1", 1/2" and 1/4", that should cover most uses. I also like one 1/8" tiny chisel that I bent into "dogleg" but bevel down for cutting inside scrolls and other tight spaces. I made that from old chisel from children set, poor steel but easily honed.
I'll try to take pics of my arsenal of old homemade tools for your inspiration...

BTW. looking around net for chisels I found the exact set I was given
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Amtech-E060...NMH4V51T2DDG12
STAY AWAY FROM THESE!!!! POOR CRAP is weak name for them. Just look at the finish. The steel is barely harder than brass. Actually I made various one-off tools out of them - I bent 1/2" one around 1" dowel into hook for prying/pulling something....

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## Marty Jacobson

+1 for Narex chisels. They are excellent, pro-quality tools which will last a lifetime. And they cost under $10 apiece. Not bad for something you could hand down to your grandkids in perfect working order.
https://www.amazon.com/Narex-Republi.../dp/B00GPC74ZQ

Also check this out: http://www.dunwellguitar.com/FingerPlanes/MyDesign.htm
You can make blades out of an old file in a pinch.

----------

John Kelly, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier, 

Upis Land

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> +1 for Narex chisels. They are excellent, pro-quality tools which will last a lifetime. And they cost under $10 apiece. Not bad for something you could hand down to your grandkids in perfect working order.
> https://www.amazon.com/Narex-Republi.../dp/B00GPC74ZQ
> 
> Also check this out: http://www.dunwellguitar.com/FingerPlanes/MyDesign.htm
> You can make blades out of an old file in a pinch.


Thank you. Would it work to only buy one 1/4" chisel? I understand that it will take more time, but would it still work? Also, which is more important, a finger plane, or a block plane? Or will I need both? I have a pretty small budget so I really need to spend my money wisely.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> If you can find used old chisels from ebay or any source they should be a higher quality than what you will buy at any discount store selling steel from China. Decide what you are going to make, the tools you need, and look for them used. You will have to sharpen new chisels any way. I am not saying new chisels are not good, because there are good new chisels, they are not cheap. And they are not made in China.


Hey pops1, I understand you are much more experienced than me, and I really should listen to you, but I just can't force myself to believe that a pack of Stanley chisels could possibly be bad. I know brand names are deceiving, but it's just hard to believe. And China is a huge country, and I don't think everything they make is necessarily bad quality.

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## dadsaster

> Hey pops1, I understand you are much more experienced than me, and I really should listen to you, but I just can't force myself to believe that a pack of Stanley chisels could possibly be bad. I know brand names are deceiving, but it's just hard to believe. And China is a huge country, and I don't think everything they make is necessarily bad quality.


Modern Stanley chisel are pretty poor quality on average.  Their sweetheart line is okay but the quality of steel has declined.  I prefer modern japanese chisels or pre-60s American chisels.  Ocassionally you can find some good Swedish chisels.  I've found that the Stanleys take a lot of work just to get the backs flat and a good bevel on them.  Even after they are setup properly they tend to go dull quickly when working with harder woods.

As for "no powertools", in woodworking school out first exercise was to make a "perfect board".  We had to saw the board out by hand and using only hand tools, get it dead flat and square on all six sides.  School was 8-10 hours a day six days a week.  Most students spent at least 3 full days getting the board right.  One poor soul left his board on his bench without proper air flow and had it cup overnight.

IMO there is a big difference between "no powertools" and "light powertools".  You can get a lot of enjoyment from hand graduating a top, hand carving a scroll etc.  You will basically just tire yourself out trying to mill all your parts by hand.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Modern Stanley chisel are pretty poor quality on average.  Their sweetheart line is okay but the quality of steel has declined.  I prefer modern japanese chisels or pre-60s American chisels.  Ocassionally you can find some good Swedish chisels.  I've found that the Stanleys take a lot of work just to get the backs flat and a good bevel on them.  Even after they are setup properly they tend to go dull quickly when working with harder woods.
> 
> As for "no powertools", in woodworking school out first exercise was to make a "perfect board".  We had to saw the board out by hand and using only hand tools, get it dead flat and square on all six sides.  School was 8-10 hours a day six days a week.  Most students spent at least 3 full days getting the board right.  One poor soul left his board on his bench without proper air flow and had it cup overnight.
> 
> IMO there is a big difference between "no powertools" and "light powertools".  You can get a lot of enjoyment from hand graduating a top, hand carving a scroll etc.  You will basically just tire yourself out trying to mill all your parts by hand.


I am not going no powertools just because I want to, but because I don't have a bucketload of money, or space to spend on powertools, and because I don't have any access to them otherwise. Now I get why pops1 said what he did, thank you.

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## dadsaster

Consider building a foot-powered scroll saw.  They don't take up a lot of space (I use mine at the dining room table), there are pretty inexpensive to make, and it should save you a lot of time.  A good quality rip saw is a must if you are starting with lumber.

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## HoGo

> I am not going no powertools just because I want to, but because I don't have a bucketload of money, or space to spend on powertools, and because I don't have any access to them otherwise. Now I get why pops1 said what he did, thank you.


You don't have to have bucketload of money. The Schaller tuners and set of GHS strings for my first mandolin probably cost more then all the rest of the mandolin, including tools, together. Talk to folks around you (you don't live in desert) and you'll likely find out that many of them either have some powertools or can advice you how to get access to some, perhaps friendly local joiner/carpenter can help you with small five-minute jobs for bandsaw or jointer like cutting out body blocks, cutting neck profile or jointing top/back halves for nice word or a six-pack. I even had five tailpieces nickel plated for free when I knocked on door of large plating company and politely asked - the foreman just took them from me and week later I came to get them prepared to pay and he just waved his hand told me just that such small order is now worth the time it takes to calculate the invoice...
I'd say, where there's a will there's a way...
There is no violin making school in my whole country, I had no access to internet when I started and EXTREMELY limited budget as well. I had to learn from my own mistakes... Joiner at my fathers work gave him a bag of hide glue granules for me and told him "violin makers use this, you just have to heat it to use..." Well, I heated it till it smoked but couldn't make a glue out of it... the whole appartment building was stinking. REALLY! (don't laugh, I was barely a kid back then) Huge was the discovery that you had to soak it in water before use.... My first mandolin drawings were based upon tracings from still TV screen (not even flat back then and VCR picture was quite fuzzy and ) and scaled up to scale of old broken taterbug mandolin I had at hands... total disaster, I couldn't bend a rib as it was too thick and I just tried to cook it in water for bending as I had no bending iron. I thought the scroll is all hollow and ribs bent all the way inside scroll... I had to reinvent most of the things you can learn in one or two clicks on internet but I continued the fight for almost 10 years carving small items, repairing "lost case" instruments etc. and finally finished my first mandolin in 2001... 
My original workshop was small table in corner of basement not large enough for guitar and perhaps 10-15 square feet of space in front of table, one box with tools and hooks on the wall above the table. I did the french polishing at hoem on my school desk...
My current workshop is 6'x12' and part of it is occupied by stash of wood, skis and various raw materials. And I still use most of the crude tools I made 20 years ago.
Just for inspiration, here is the thread where I showed pics of my first effort... 
https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...?1760-My-first
too bad the pics were all hosted my old server account, I could probably find them somewhere in my computer if you wish.

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Bill Findley, 

Inklings

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## Inklings

Adrian, what a great example of "where there's a will, there's a way," indeed!  It was really interesting reading about your experiences.  Have you written a blog, or memoir, of how you got started?  It is really interesting!

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> You don't have to have bucketload of money. The Schaller tuners and set of GHS strings for my first mandolin probably cost more then all the rest of the mandolin, including tools, together. Talk to folks around you (you don't live in desert) and you'll likely find out that many of them either have some powertools or can advice you how to get access to some, perhaps friendly local joiner/carpenter can help you with small five-minute jobs for bandsaw or jointer like cutting out body blocks, cutting neck profile or jointing top/back halves for nice word or a six-pack. I even had five tailpieces nickel plated for free when I knocked on door of large plating company and politely asked - the foreman just took them from me and week later I came to get them prepared to pay and he just waved his hand told me just that such small order is now worth the time it takes to calculate the invoice...
> I'd say, where there's a will there's a way...
> There is no violin making school in my whole country, I had no access to internet when I started and EXTREMELY limited budget as well. I had to learn from my own mistakes... Joiner at my fathers work gave him a bag of hide glue granules for me and told him "violin makers use this, you just have to heat it to use..." Well, I heated it till it smoked but couldn't make a glue out of it... the whole appartment building was stinking. REALLY! (don't laugh, I was barely a kid back then) Huge was the discovery that you had to soak it in water before use.... My first mandolin drawings were based upon tracings from still TV screen (not even flat back then and VCR picture was quite fuzzy and ) and scaled up to scale of old broken taterbug mandolin I had at hands... total disaster, I couldn't bend a rib as it was too thick and I just tried to cook it in water for bending as I had no bending iron. I thought the scroll is all hollow and ribs bent all the way inside scroll... I had to reinvent most of the things you can learn in one or two clicks on internet but I continued the fight for almost 10 years carving small items, repairing "lost case" instruments etc. and finally finished my first mandolin in 2001... 
> My original workshop was small table in corner of basement not large enough for guitar and perhaps 10-15 square feet of space in front of table, one box with tools and hooks on the wall above the table. I did the french polishing at hoem on my school desk...
> My current workshop is 6'x12' and part of it is occupied by stash of wood, skis and various raw materials. And I still use most of the crude tools I made 20 years ago.
> Just for inspiration, here is the thread where I showed pics of my first effort... 
> https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...?1760-My-first
> too bad the pics were all hosted my old server account, I could probably find them somewhere in my computer if you wish.


Thanks for sharing your experience HoGo! You should write a book by the way. You're saying what I am thinking. Where there's a will there's a way. That's why I am building without power tools. That is my way for my will. I have contacted many people already, or else I wouldn't be going this route. The only thing I could possibly lose doing it this way, is money and time. Money for tools which can be used for more attempts, and wood, which is a loss that could be used for something else. Time, on the other hand is not at all an issue for me. I am a lonely person without friends or activities, so I have plenty of free time. I really think if I work hard enough and have the patience to do this, I can do it.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Adrian, what a great example of "where there's a will, there's a way," indeed!  It was really interesting reading about your experiences.  Have you written a blog, or memoir, of how you got started?  It is really interesting!


Didn't see your post earlier, but you are spot on. His experience is definitely interesting enough for me to read for days.

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## HoGo

Hre are some pics of that first one... I still have them in my MC account I wonder why they fell out from the posts... perhaps it was because of forum SW upgrade.

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WoMando

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## HoGo

The whole history is too far back to remember the details, but most of the tools are still with me to remind me of bits of my beginnings. Here is a pic of the tools mentioned earlier and basicly this is all I still have (I have one newer chisel but I don't remember I used it other than initial sharpening) and few items like hammers and metal cutting sawblade etc. (I don't even have frame for that and usually use it handheld wrapped with tape)
L-R my trusty Bowie knife (with old worn leather sheath I made myself back in 1991 or so -I ws 13 back then - it has "Hogan" written on backside that became my nickname back then)
my first gouge mede of cold hammered steel sheet, the "extra hard" gouge made from butcher knive sharpener (I've used it for many dirty jobs lately so it's not nice now), my most used gouge - simple work of blacksmith good carbon steel formed to U and sharpened I added the handle. My best chisel- 25mm wide very old Sheffield "cast steel" chisel I dug out of clay when helping in garden behind local church some 10 years ago (there used to be wheelmakers shop many years ago on the place) basically one ball of rust when I lifted it and I grinded the rust off just to see what it was and found faint "cast steel" and anough meat to still work even though there are pits in the blade. Definately great steel sharpens to incredible edge and holds it for long I use it very often,
My tiny dogleg chisel made out of old children set chisel, my old handplane (actually newer reincarnation as the original fell apart after few years of hard use), My binding/purfling cutter - made of whatever material I had at hand - piece of beech wood, old reused bolts and nuts (no two are same) and blade mede of recycled kitchen knife. My old folding knife (it was from russian army electrician set, it's already falling apart and the tape holds it in one piece, but I'm using it for dirty jobs like cutting sandpaper because the blade is soft and sharpens easily), exacto blade inserted into maple stick. I broke the exacto hande during first use so I did this and resharpen the blade as neccessary, 
My go-to epoxy cast thumbplane with blade from the kitchen knife and bone cap on bottom.
Some cheap files (I also have 3/16" finer square file with safe edges for fretwork somewhere and round chainsaw file 4mm or so thick)
The scrapers used to be my first fret saw when became too dull to resharpen I cut it into two pieces and made those (very good) scrapers, 0.5mm thick, sharpened to square edge. My old handsaw (soon to become more scrapers 0.8mm thick)
above are some sanding sticks and blocks and two very old Narex chisels with hard rubber/plastic handles that I've been using for hammering frets ever since I started (it offers more control than typical plastic hammer with long handle and is virtually indestructible, I hammer the frets with end of the handle where mallet would strike not by side - impossible to miss the fret this way) and one old chsel I got from my elementary school when they were throwing away damaged tools (it had broken part of the blade).

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Inklings

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Is it OK to use knotty Ponderosa pine for a top? I know the pine itself is OK, but is it OK that there are knots present? How would it sound?

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## Fergus Lester

I haven't made any mandolins. My Dad taught me how to make rectangular stuff by cutting close to the line with a hand saw and trimming with a hand plane. Without his 60+ years as a joiner, I can get it nearly right at best, but I could get it more right, and quicker using the RIGHT power tools. Presumably Stradivari used the best technology available at the time. But I think I get why someone would want to work totally by hand

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Hey everybody, just wanted to let you know I'm gonna be posting any progress I make, along with questions on here from now on. 
So far, I have a handsaw, coping saw, set of chisels and gouges, a drill, and a sharpening stone. All I really need now are some clamps and a plane, but I can make both of those. I have bought solid pine wood for my top, and some beautiful, beautiful solid poplar wood for the back and sides. I am printing my plans this weekend. We're off to a good start!

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## HoGo

Pine can be OK for top but I would prefer straight grained quartersawn piece even if You had to join several pieces. Knotty flatsawn pine may crack easier when used as thin top and will be bear to plane/ scrape withour chipping at the knots.
This reminds me that my first mandolin was a pancake wreck with totaled top where I made new top using five pieces of spruce roof shingles I got from guy showing ancient crafts on a fair. Trained my joining skills and planing to uniform thickness - I managed to do it on second attempt as I planed right through center of first plate during thicknessing (I had just that small block plane and watching egdes is not enough).
Poplar should be good, perhaps harder to bend as it may be brittle (depending on exact species).

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## tonydxn

Made my first 4 or 5 instruments using only my dad's hand tools. I still have (and use) some of them. Here in UK we have something called Freecycle - a website where people can post messages offering stuff they want to give away. You can do 'wanted' posts too. You must have something similar in US. You may be able to pick up some useful tools free.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Pine can be OK for top but I would prefer straight grained quartersawn piece even if You had to join several pieces. Knotty flatsawn pine may crack easier when used as thin top and will be bear to plane/ scrape withour chipping at the knots.
> This reminds me that my first mandolin was a pancake wreck with totaled top where I made new top using five pieces of spruce roof shingles I got from guy showing ancient crafts on a fair. Trained my joining skills and planing to uniform thickness - I managed to do it on second attempt as I planed right through center of first plate during thicknessing (I had just that small block plane and watching egdes is not enough).
> Poplar should be good, perhaps harder to bend as it may be brittle (depending on exact species).


I actually was lucky enough to find a piece without knots. It is also the size I need so I won't even have to bookmatch! It's great!

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Ignore this please.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Hez PaniniWar... It took you 47 posts to reveal you want to build F-5 and so far you never mentioned what is your background - What (hand) tools do you have and how well you can work with them. Just that you WANT to build beautiful instruments from raw wood with just hand tools. F-5 may be one of the most difficult instruments to build (if you wish it be really beautiful)...
> I would suggest that your first study a lot about traditional instrument making. There are zillions of articles and tutorials on internet, perhaps none is start to end with hand tools but all you need is just substitute the handtools instead of the power tools.
> If you don't hane good drawing get one, it's one of the most important things on the way to success. I spent few years drawing plans and preparing for the actul work before I started on my first build (almost completely done with hand tools). Now you have everything within few clicks so take the time to do the homework and study how it is done and after that you will be able to ask specific questions like "I have some scrap wood and tools x, y, z and want to start making mould for my F-5 build, what would you suggest?..."
> There are many generous builders here willing to help you but you are making it hard or impossible.


Hey Adrian, I am wondering how you went about making your plans. Did you trace from a mandolin you had access too, or what? I am eager to make my plans but I don't know where to start.

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## Marty Jacobson

PaniniWar, is your piece of pine quarter sawn? The grain should look like straight parallel lines, not like U or V shapes. If it's not quarter sawn, it is not likely to work well under tension or over time, but it will still be a good piece of wood to practice with.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> PaniniWar, is your piece of pine quarter sawn? The grain should look like straight parallel lines, not like U or V shapes. If it's not quarter sawn, it is not likely to work well under tension or over time, but it will still be a good piece of wood to practice with.


I'm not sure Marty, Ill check right when I get home.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Poplar

Ponderosa Pine

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Does this look ok? For reference it is 4' long and 12" wide.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Does this look ok? For reference it is 4' long and 12" wide.


FYI, I am referring to the Ponderosa Pine. It is not bookmatched.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

In case anybody came to this thread looking for the same thing I was looking for at the start, I strongly recommend Jerry Rosa's videos on his 182 RSW Mandolin. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_-FGzJ2Jzk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yORTHE1WV3M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uSEwG7bMVc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nckSwsTfgAk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ePuVhdF8mE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LRQkK7v5Ow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfEmddwCdN0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bjTZmQn91U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-3M8ZkdLrc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olvDu0lvR6E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulk7Lv-nHwk

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## Marty Jacobson

Hi Pranav, that piece of pine is not recommended for an instrument top due to the way it is sawn. It is considerably weaker in this orientation than if the grain is oriented 90 degrees to the face (quarter sawn). You'll still use it - there are lots of things you need wood like this for in building an instrument, including molds or corner blocks. In those applications it would be fine.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Hi Pranav, that piece of pine is not recommended for an instrument top due to the way it is sawn. It is considerably weaker in this orientation than if the grain is oriented 90 degrees to the face (quarter sawn). You'll still use it - there are lots of things you need wood like this for in building an instrument, including molds or corner blocks. In those applications it would be fine.


It's OK, I can return it. I got it from Home Depot, and have the receipt, so I should be fine. I plan to get much smaller pieces for the blocks and such. And also, I plan to use MDF or cardboard for the mould.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Just making sure, but you are looking at the 2nd pic, right?

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## HoGo

That looks like plain slab sawn pine board. I'd look into pile of SPF pieces and watch the endgrain to get as close to quarter |||||||||||||| some angle would be acceptable like 60 degrees from surface /////////////. I would stay away from slabcut because of potential cracks... wodd shrinks more across tangential surface so humidity cracks can occur and typically wood is also mechanically easier to split down the center of log so quartered wood is safer for two reasons. On hardwoods it is not as importand as most of the load it on the top.
For neck I would go for harder wood than poplar, maple, birch or similar should do well
What kind of instrument are you planning from this wood? F5 or something simpler like pancake or A style?

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> That looks like plain slab sawn pine board. I'd look into pile of SPF pieces and watch the endgrain to get as close to quarter |||||||||||||| some angle would be acceptable like 60 degrees from surface /////////////. I would stay away from slabcut because of potential cracks... wodd shrinks more across tangential surface so humidity cracks can occur and typically wood is also mechanically easier to split down the center of log so quartered wood is safer for two reasons. On hardwoods it is not as importand as most of the load it on the top.
> For neck I would go for harder wood than poplar, maple, birch or similar should do well
> What kind of instrument are you planning from this wood? F5 or something simpler like pancake or A style?


An arch-top, flat-back F style mandolin. I can switch out the wood, so it's OK. Maybe oak or walnut for the neck? I kind of wanted to build the main body first, and then make the neck, which is why I haven't focused much on the neck. I know this is a bit random, but I was just wondering, why is it that it isn't called top and bottom, or front and back, but rather top and back? I've always wondered but never questioned it.  :Smile:

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## HoGo

> Hey Adrian, I am wondering how you went about making your plans. Did you trace from a mandolin you had access too, or what? I am eager to make my plans but I don't know where to start.


That was a loooooong time effort... Back when I started I had no access to rel F-5 (I'm in central EU). There were some homemade mandolins in use by local musicians that would score quite high on "ugliest scroll of the century" thread built by some carpenter form shaky outline of chinese mandolin. All I knew was basic dimensions and scale length and had few VCR TV recordings of Monroe, Bush and some of the better bands so I stopped the vid whenever there was closeup and tried to trace the shaky screen on semitransparent drafting paper... then I got my ruler an calculator out and measured distances and sizes and ratios and slowly built up some basic outline and position of body points f holes etc... Later (a univ.) I had access to internet (1996, basic slooooooow connection DSL, sometimes working only in text mode...) and managed to download few pics from dealer/maker sites and some info from MC (I somehow stumbled upon it right at it's beginnings) took them home on 3.5" discs to my W95 computer and used them as base for further drawing/redrawing and by 2000 I had something you see in pic, I did wear through quite few layers of thet paper before I got there, you can see how it as alread falling apart at the fold/centerline. All handdrawn with no french curves. That's when I discovered Photoshop and its possibilities and managed to scan them into PC (in severalpieces and assembled back in PS).... Then I started overlaying them with Loar pics I could find over internet and since the pics and information got better basicly each month (that era was really "fast" in IT) I had better resolution pictures and more measurements etc. so I decided to follow and draw as close to Loar as possible. I had my first version of drawings finished just about the same time when the second Siminoff book was published with his new drawings and a friend sent me the book (not available in my country and internet sales were almost nonexistent here back then) and I found out that I liked my plans better and after I sent few copies out they persuaded me to publish them.... That was in 2005 or so... There are hundreds if not thousands hours of work in it (it was my passion like nothing else, sometimes spent 10 hours without leaving the PC, at average 1-3 hours a day)

I can save you few years of that hard work.... PM me, I think I have some of the earlier Loar drawings in my shop (perhaps slightly worn but will get you started).

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Also, I contacted Home Depot, and they said they do not have any quarter sawn wood. What do you think would happen if I still used this pine or if I used a hardwood for the top? What confuses me is that hardwood tops are used for guitars and ukuleles a lot, but seem to be condemned in mandolin world. Why is it that the guitar and ukulele soundboards vibrate well, but a mandolin one wouldn't?

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Or what about this spruce? https://www.homedepot.com/p/TemPlus-...1759/100003428 It isn't quarter sawn either, but I could probably find a somewhat good piece without any knots and such. Unfortunately, what they have at Home Depot is all I can get.

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## pops1

If you look thru all the wood piece by piece you may find a quarter sawn piece in their pile. They will say they don't have any, but some will be by accident. You will have to look to find it tho.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> If you look thru all the wood piece by piece you may find a quarter sawn piece in their pile. They will say they don't have any, but some will be by accident. You will have to look to find it tho.


Ok I will take my time looking then. So if it is quarter sawn, the lines will run straight down parallel to each other?

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## Marty Jacobson

Also look at cedar and fir... cedar has to be about 2x as thick when carved, and fir can split unexpectedly, but both have been used commonly for musical instrument tops.
If you find a piece like this, you're golden.

See how the grain is parallel on the face, and perpendicular (as Adrian said, |||||||) at the end grain:


By the way, if your first instrument does not look as good as Adrian's first, don't be disappointed. Basically nobody does as well on their first instrument as that. (Except Adrian, somehow, because he is a beast).
Your priorities for your first mandolin should be:
1. Perfect glue joints - don't glue it up if there are any gaps that you can't close with your fingers. Clamps are there to put pressure on the joint for proper adhesion, not to close gaps.
2. Good geometry - proper neck angle which will allow you the space for strings and bridge to lie correctly with room to adjust the bridge up and down.
3. Structure - blocks at the head and tail which are well sized to take the loads, peghead not too thin nor too thick, reasonable thickness of top and back based on plans.
4. Aesthetics last. You can always learn to make things look better, but making a functional instrument is more important. That being said, if you do the first three things accurately, it will not be ugly.

----------

John Kelly, 

Timbofood

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## Jeff Mando

Lotsa good info here for everyone.  I've enjoyed reading it!  Thanks, guys!

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## Timbofood

I’ve seen Adrian’s plans and have heard some of the stories of the collaboration with another Cafe member, who said it was a very interesting project indeed!  These very talented luthiers who share experience and talent so freely on this site are indeed special people, I’ve been lucky enough to have met a few and such generosity seems to be part of their nature! The information shared this and so many other threads restores my faith in the “Good of Man”.
Pranav, I wish you all the luck in the world for your undertaking, I would not trust most of the guys I’ve met working at Home Depot, they might be in lumber one week and grass seed the next, any real knowledge of wood is sadly missing from their labour force. Just my opinion based on the three branches around here. You will need to go paw through entire stacks of material before you find a “good” one. 
I have a friend (my banjo player) who’s straight job is cabinetmaker, he has found some very nice material from time to time for a very reasonable price at big box stores but, he A-knows what he sees and, B-has taken the time to learn what he is looking for.
He’s been a wood hound for as long as I’ve known him and I’m lucky to have gotten a few projects built from some of his “scrap”.
Take your time, don’t rush the project, be particular, wait for the right piece of material.
If you are going to carve the top, why not just dive in and carve the back too?  I think again that building something more basic until when you get a feel for the tools, think about it from the standpoint of the learning curve. An F-5 is an extremely complicated piece of engineering but, I fully understand the “Its just so COOL, I have got to build one!” point of view. Best of luck buddy!

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Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## HoGo

That old digital camera was very merciful to my first attempt ;-), sure there were few mistakes and many smaller "ooops". I re-topped it few years later so now it has more Loarish top and finished it again with bits of leftover varnish I used originally.
Ordinary boards will be very ulikely quartered, the whle logs are often cut to thin boards so only two three at the center of log are close to quarter. I would have a look at 2X4's and try to find something that looks like one on Marty's image. And has no knots, or at least in position where you can cut around it.
I would suggest carved back, poplar is fairly easy to carve and less "splintery" than spruce so it can be good one for start...
Walnut for neck wpould be OK, but a bit contrasting to your back... But if you are going to use stain it won't be too noticeable.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

What _would_ happen if I just used this piece? Would it be so weak that it wouldn't be able to hold the tension, or would it just be a bit weaker?

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## Bill McCall

going back to the plan and full sized drawing, if you make all of the parts to fit your accurately drawn plan, then the assembly is a much more manageable task.  Don't shortcut yourself on making the parts exactly to the plan.  They fit on the paper, they will fit in 3D if they are made the same.  I'm not a fan of building parts as you go along.  Think of it as your handmade kit.  Some assembly required :Smile:

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Jeff Mando

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## billhay4

It would probably crack over time, or sag.
Go to Home Depot. Sort through their pile piece by piece. You'll probably find a piece of quarter sawn. If not, wait a week, and repeat. But you live in Morgantown. There should be plenty of spruce available there at non-big-box lumber stores.
Bill

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> It would probably crack over time, or sag.
> Go to Home Depot. Sort through their pile piece by piece. You'll probably find a piece of quarter sawn. If not, wait a week, and repeat. But you live in Morgantown. There should be plenty of spruce available there at non-big-box lumber stores.
> Bill


Well, I can't find any. Do you think 84 Lumber, or Lowes would have quartersawn wood, because I have those nearby as well.

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## pops1

Anyplace that sells wood could have some.

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## HoGo

> Anyplace that sells wood could have some.


Firewood sellers not excluding. Don't fear of smaller pieces... I would prefer gluing four pieces of quartered to using that slab-cut.
The spruce tops in my recent mandolins were destined to fire. I noticed stash of logs and spruce butts at te road prepared for firewood. Some of the logs were 2' diameter or more with hollow rotten center but enough healthy wood for mandolin tops so we split 40 or so tops (wide grained - looks just like common red spruce in US) and it cost me virtually nothing but the sweat. These stashes are often left there for folks from nearby villages to take or left to rot as they are not worth enough to transport out of the forest. I go around the place often and most of the wood was still there two years later and slowly rotting.
Have a look here: https://benedettoguitars.com/2011/09...y-knot-so-bad/
It can be done, but carving such wood is not easy and for beginner straight grained quartered wood would still be enough of a challenge...

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## Timbofood

I agree with Bill, you need to look and, look and, look some more. The more you rush, the greater possibility of making mistakes. Take the time learning!  See,if you,can find someplace that is NOT a big box chain kind of place, an old time lumberyard! Someplace that smells like wood not plastic and cardboard, big box stores have their place but, by and large it is not a luthier supply unless you have a lot of time to sort through stacks of material. If you don’t have the patience to look for the wood, I’m worried about you causing your fingers some damage in rushing the carving. This is something you will have for a long time, slow down, take the time to find the best material you can, don’t just “use this” knowing it will fail, do the best you can!

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## Jim Garber

I would also suggest as another possibility local cabinet shops that might have cutoffs that could be used. And those might be good folks to become friends with. People who love wood!

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Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> I would also suggest as another possibility local cabinet shops that might have cutoffs that could be used. And those might be good folks to become friends with. People who love wood!


I did try this initially, and I contacted many cabinet makers nearby, but nearly none of them replied, and the ones that did, told me they couldn't help me.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Does anybody know any links to high quality wood on amazon? I'm looking and I can't find much.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Ignore this.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Has anybody here bought from Old Standard Musical Instrument Wood? Would you recommend it?

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## billhay4

Yes.
Bill

----------

Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

I found this nice cheap sitka spruce specifically for mandolins and violins. https://www.woodtoworks.com/Mandolin...4_p_12040.html Looks good and has free shipping too. Will come to a total of $12 for me. I am SUUUUPER excited, and glad you guys told me about buying good wood. If this website didn't exist, I would be dead.

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## Timbofood

Pranav, 
Practice on the pine with the tools to begin to develop a feel for what’s happening before you attack the nice stock. You would feel terrible if you damaged a nice piece of material with a simple (avoidable through a little experience) mistake.
You would not be dead but probably frustrated! 
How are your box projects going? Use the pine for one or two of those. Show your progress, please?

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Pranav, 
> Practice on the pine with the tools to begin to develop a feel for what’s happening before you attack the nice stock. You would feel terrible if you damaged a nice piece of material with a simple (avoidable through a little experience) mistake.
> You would not be dead but probably frustrated! 
> How are your box projects going? Use the pine for one or two of those. Show your progress, please?


OK, I'll try practicing some tomorrow and throughout the week as I wait for my wood and plans. I'll show you all how it goes.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

I don't have pine at my house, but I found some hardwood, and tried, but man was it hard. I only managed to make one side before my arm was aching like heck (I am super scrawny). I will still try to finish it, but doesn't seem likely. I also have some plywood at home, do you think I could practice with that?

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## pops1

Plywood would be harder, glue will dull your tools. I would stay with solid wood. How sharp are your tools? You should be able to shave hair with them. It also helps to keep your sharpening stone handy and make a few cuts, sharpen a few strokes, make a few cuts. It is easier to keep something sharp than to resharpen it. If you tools are sharp you won't have to push hard to make cuts, and don't make deep cuts, take your time and save your body and your tool edge.

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## Jess L.

oops nevermind, already answered...

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Plywood would be harder, glue will dull your tools. I would stay with solid wood. How sharp are your tools? You should be able to shave hair with them. It also helps to keep your sharpening stone handy and make a few cuts, sharpen a few strokes, make a few cuts. It is easier to keep something sharp than to resharpen it. If you tools are sharp you won't have to push hard to make cuts, and don't make deep cuts, take your time and save your body and your tool edge.


OK, so I need to sharpen my tools better. They can't shave hair. OK I will keep you all posted on the next attempt.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Don't mind this.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Also, unfortunately, my search for top wood is on again. There was a bit of a misunderstanding between me and woodtoworks.

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## Timbofood

Am I mistaken? I thought you had posted a couple of pictures of a couple of pieces of wood, no?
A small piece of pretty much anything shouldn’t be hard to find especially if there is a “real” lumberyard around. You need to find a place that smells of wood, there has to be someone dong some kind of woodworking around you. I suggest looking for them, ask if they have some scrap, go to the shop, look at what they do, this is face to face work not electronic annoyance stuff. You are looking into some “old school” kind of work here, it is a slower pace than the modern world seems to demand these days.
Too bad about the top wood deal, things happen.
There is a lot of material out there.
Have you looked at Stewmac.com for material? <$30.00 for a set of top wood.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

I know I am not supposed to, and that all of you will be super against this, but I am super tempted to buy a hardwood like poplar for the top. I might actually fall for the trap and do it. I know I should listen to all of you talented smart luthiers, but sometimes I like to give my curiosity a joyride. What's the worst that could happen anyways? A bad sounding instrument will come out of the money and time I spent. Money spent on tools that can be used more, and time that I use for absolutely nothing else. And it would be a cool learning experience. Even if it sounds like crap, I could make it a "showpiece" or replace the top with spruce. I feel bad for discounting all of your advice, but I might let myself do this.

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## Timbofood

So, just to get something cobbled out you feel like using the wrong (or material of questionable suitability) stock? This is really an interesting thread. I don’t see an up side to spending the time carving to just make something which has the cards stacked against it.
Do what you want but, you ask questions, get advice from very talented luthiers and choose to do what you were going to do in the first place. Why didn’t you just go chainsaw out some pallets and nail up something with some wire on it. If you want your effort to be rewarding, TAKE YOUR TIME and make something nice otherwise I think it’s time for me to move on to building a picnic table.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> So, just to get something cobbled out you feel like using the wrong (or material of questionable suitability) stock? This is really an interesting thread. I don’t see an up side to spending the time carving to just make something which has the cards stacked against it.
> Do what you want but, you ask questions, get advice from very talented luthiers and choose to do what you were going to do in the first place. Why didn’t you just go chainsaw out some pallets and nail up something with some wire on it. If you want your effort to be rewarding, TAKE YOUR TIME and make something nice otherwise I think it’s time for me to move on to building a picnic table.


I asked questions so I could be informed on the topic I am interested in and learn more, but I haven't seen anybody try a poplar top, so why should I not? There's no point in not trying. I want to see what will come out of it. I didn't take some wood, nail up something, and put wire on it because that isn't an effort. That is pathetic. That is a guaranteed failure. I am taking all of your advice and still plan to ask questions and listen to what you say, but this is just one of those things, where I want to try my hardest to make a work of art from something people doubted me for. This is why I said sorry so much. I don't want anybody to feel like I wasted their trying to help somebody. And I don't want anybody to feel disrespected by me outright not taking their advice. But I really want to try this. I hope you all will still help me and answer my questions, and please do not feel offended. I just really want to try this. Also, people generally say to use softwoods for tops, but poplar is softer than most softwoods, and mahogany and koa are commonly used on guitar tops, so I don't think I should limit myself to softwoods. I hope if you all don't stand with me, I will prove you wrong and show you I can do this.

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## Jim Garber

Do whatever you feel like you need to do. There is really no wrong path. Luthiers have tried all sorts of combinations. And you don’t have to accede to anyone here for sure. However, you did ask what would be the best way to do things to produce a good mandolin and you received opinions equal to a sum total of probably a few hundred years of professional luthiery experience. 

Should you decide to go a more conventional way, there is this wood seller in the classifieds. I don’t know but maybe he has some decent wood at a good price.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Do whatever you feel like you need to do. There is really no wrong path. Luthiers have tried all sorts of combinations. And you don’t have to accede to anyone here for sure. However, you did ask what would be the best way to do things to produce a good mandolin and you received opinions equal to a sum total of probably a few hundred years of professional luthiery experience. 
> 
> Should you decide to go a more conventional way, there is this wood seller in the classifieds. I don’t know but maybe he has some decent wood at a good price.


And I will try to take those few hundred years of professional luthierie experience and adapt it into what I am interested in, and experimenting with unconventional wood.

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## Jeff Mando

Just on the off-chance, I went ahead and checked the calendar -- NOPE, it's not April Fools Day, yet.  Nonetheless, this thread has many qualities that remind me of an infamous thread from a couple years ago that went 37 pages, largely unchecked, about a young man trying to buy a very expensive mandolin, then returning it, then buying another, then returning it, and on and on, and finally getting back one he had already returned, I think!  Featuring almost hourly updates, included in this journey was a thought process and range of emotion that I didn't know human beings were even capable of.  Much of which was captured on video....some of it even posted here!  Yes, I learned a lot from it.  No, not about mandolins, but about psychology, class, nuisance, impossible details, and the search for something that probably doesn't even exist.  Mostly, it was exhausting, but I found myself following the thread like a soap opera to get my daily fix!  No, this thread isn't there yet, but has some of the same makings, IMHO.

On a positive note, I think the beauty of youth, beside boundless energy, is the ability to try something that a person with more experience would talk themselves out of.  It doesn't hurt anything to try.  A few years ago at a vintage guitar show, there was a full sized guitar on display carved from a single log of wood.  One piece of wood.  No glue.  No nothing.  Who cares how it sounded?  It was amazing!

----------

John Kelly

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Just on the off-chance, I went ahead and checked the calendar -- NOPE, it's not April Fools Day, yet.  Nonetheless, this thread has many qualities that remind me of an infamous thread from a couple years ago that went 37 pages, largely unchecked, about a young man trying to buy a very expensive mandolin, then returning it, then buying another, then returning it, and on and on, and finally getting back one he had already returned, I think!  Featuring almost hourly updates, included in this journey was a thought process and range of emotion that I didn't know human beings were even capable of.  Much of which was captured on video....some of it even posted here!  Yes, I learned a lot from it.  No, not about mandolins, but about psychology, class, nuisance, impossible details, and the search for something that probably doesn't even exist.  Mostly, it was exhausting, but I found myself following the thread like a soap opera to get my daily fix!  No, this thread isn't there yet, but has some of the same makings, IMHO.
> 
> On a positive note, I think the beauty of youth, beside boundless energy, is the ability to try something that a person with more experience would talk themselves out of.  It doesn't hurt anything to try.  A few years ago at a vintage guitar show, there was a full sized guitar on display carved from a single log of wood.  One piece of wood.  No glue.  No nothing.  Who cares how it sounded?  It was amazing!


OK, I will calm down this thread a lot.

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## HoGo

Pranav, the drawings are packed and I will take them to Post office as soon as I will go around one. I even took one spruce top that I would send to you, but the shipping alone would cost more than just buying the wood in the US...
In the meanwhile try your hands at some simple jobs. If you don't have wood, have a walk around your town wth a handsaw in backpack and I'm suer you'll find more waste wood than you need for many smaller jobs just thrown out at recycle bins or at building sites... Much of it will be quite dry, and after short time inside stable enough for small projects. I know I could find enough spruce off-cuts for a top or two at few places I walked around few days ago. I have quite a few boards of exotic woods I scored from pallets or shipping crates coming from Asia.
SO sharpen your tools (I recommend Wet or dry paper for sharpening instead stones and good flat surface - even laminated particleboard or piece of flooring will do just don't wet the edges) and try to carve something.

----------

Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## John Kelly

> I know I am not supposed to, and that all of you will be super against this, but I am super tempted to buy a hardwood like poplar for the top. I might actually fall for the trap and do it. I know I should listen to all of you talented smart luthiers, but sometimes I like to give my curiosity a joyride. What's the worst that could happen anyways? A bad sounding instrument will come out of the money and time I spent. Money spent on tools that can be used more, and time that I use for absolutely nothing else. And it would be a cool learning experience. Even if it sounds like crap, I could make it a "showpiece" or replace the top with spruce. I feel bad for discounting all of your advice, but I might let myself do this.


Surely, Pranav, you were always going to go your own way, whatever advice you were being given in this thread.  Certainly no-one can fault you for your enthusiasm and drive.  Good luck with whatever you end up making, and you'll have the satisfaction of knowing, as the late Mr Frank Sinatra said in song, that "I did it my way!"

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Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Jim Garber

> And I will try to take those few hundred years of professional luthierie experience and adapt it into what I am interested in, and experimenting with unconventional wood.


Two thoughts:
An experiment usually has a controlsomething conventional to compare with the tested material. Go out and play some hardwood topped guitars and compare to those made with softer woods. Bear in mind that guitars have a much longer scale and play lower in pitch. And the best ukuleles, even with hardwood tops are braced super-lightly and use nylon strings which are much lower tension than mandolins.

My guess is that a poplar top even if created by an expert maker would accentuate the treble end of the mandolin range.

As far as experimentation, many artists, even Picasso, learned the essentials of their craft and gradually explored more edgy avant- garde ideas after many more conventional works.

----------

hank, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier, 

Timbofood

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## Seter

Poplar has and is used for instrument tops, it's just not very popular. Appalachian dulcimers pop up with poplar tops; traditionally dulcimers were built with whatever wood was on hand so you see a fairly wide variety of woods. I had mine built by a guy who specializes in dogwood tops, but he also uses poplar, chestnut, sycamore, walnut, cedar, spruce, cherry, you name it. This is his store if you are curious: https://appflutesrebelngrey.patternbyetsy.com/ For most acoustic instrument soundboards I prefer the sound of spruce with the exception of 12 string guitars where I think cedar sounds better.

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Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Two thoughts:
> An experiment usually has a “control”—something conventional to compare with the tested material. Go out and play some hardwood topped guitars and compare to those made with softer woods. Bear in mind that guitars have a much longer scale and play lower in pitch. And the best ukuleles, even with hardwood tops are braced super-lightly and use nylon strings which are much lower tension than mandolins.
> 
> My guess is that a poplar top even if created by an expert maker would accentuate the treble end of the mandolin range.
> 
> As far as experimentation, many artists, even Picasso, learned the essentials of their craft and gradually explored more edgy avant- garde ideas after many more conventional works.


I am curious as to why the poplar top wouldn't vibrate as well as spruce. A hardwood just comes from an angiosperm and a softwood comes from a gymnosperm, it has nothing to do with the hardness. Poplar is even softer than Pine and Spruce. Balsa is a hardwood as well, but it happens to be the softest wood in the world! Wouldn't the sound be affected by the softness and density of the wood itself rather than the seed it came from?

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Pranav, the drawings are packed and I will take them to Post office as soon as I will go around one. I even took one spruce top that I would send to you, but the shipping alone would cost more than just buying the wood in the US...
> In the meanwhile try your hands at some simple jobs. If you don't have wood, have a walk around your town wth a handsaw in backpack and I'm suer you'll find more waste wood than you need for many smaller jobs just thrown out at recycle bins or at building sites... Much of it will be quite dry, and after short time inside stable enough for small projects. I know I could find enough spruce off-cuts for a top or two at few places I walked around few days ago. I have quite a few boards of exotic woods I scored from pallets or shipping crates coming from Asia.
> SO sharpen your tools (I recommend Wet or dry paper for sharpening instead stones and good flat surface - even laminated particleboard or piece of flooring will do just don't wet the edges) and try to carve something.


Thanks a lot, Adrian! If this mandolin does come out ok, I will build one in India that is made with a softwood top and hardwood back and sides, so don't feel as if your effort to help was wasted.

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## Drew Streip

This thread has been interesting, because I am exploring building a mandolin and a dreadnought. I start with a lot of years of playing experience, a little bit of woodworking experience, and 30 years of common sense. 

I want to make good-sounding instruments. But first, I want to know why good-sounding instruments work. So just because you learn WHY conventional instruments work -- that doesn't mean you can make an unconventional instrument work on your first go around. 

It's like you're trying to write a best-selling book in a language you don't speak. And you're saying you're already prepared to screw it up and rewrite the whole thing. Why? Just learn the language. 

Some people say there's no such thing as failure, only learning. But if you don't know (or CARE) why you failed, then you wasted time that could have been spent learning. 

I'm making small boxes to give my groomsmen. Do you know how many pieces of wood have ended up in the kindling bin just trying to make square edges and hand-cut finger joints? How many hours I've spent on a 6-inch rectangle? Now multiply that by literally months of work. 

This isn't to dissuade you from experimenting, but to _persuade_ you to listen to common sense. You've spent so much time scrounging for scrap wood and saying why you can't buy normal stock that you could have spent $30 at StewMac and already roughed out the top of a mandolin, if you're as dedicated as you say you are.

----------

Timbofood

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> This thread has been interesting, because I am exploring building a mandolin and a dreadnought. I start with a lot of years of playing experience, a little bit of woodworking experience, and 30 years of common sense. 
> 
> I want to make good-sounding instruments. But first, I want to know why good-sounding instruments work. So just because you learn WHY conventional instruments work -- that doesn't mean you can make an unconventional instrument work on your first go around. 
> 
> It's like you're trying to write a best-selling book in a language you don't speak. And you're saying you're already prepared to screw it up and rewrite the whole thing. Why? Just learn the language. 
> 
> Some people say there's no such thing as failure, only learning. But if you don't know (or CARE) why you failed, then you wasted time that could have been spent learning. 
> 
> I'm making small boxes to give my groomsmen. Do you know how many pieces of wood have ended up in the kindling bin just trying to make square edges and hand-cut finger joints? How many hours I've spent on a 6-inch rectangle? Now multiply that by literally months of work. 
> ...


Again, I don't understand how the "common sense" makes sense. I haven't even seen a poplar top mandolin, and most other people on this forum probably haven't either. So why should I be expecting a bad result from this? The density of poplar is 22-31 lb per feet cubed. The density of spruce is 25-44 lb per feet cubed. Poplar is also proven to be much softer. I have my own brain. My brain can listen to others' experienced brains, but if it doesn't click, my brain will disregard it. I don't expect this to end up bad. I am just saying, that I won't be crying myself to sleep if my mandolin is super treble heavy or tinny. Also, like I said before, I have pretty much unlimited time. I have no friends, and no life. What I don't have is a ton of money. That is why I didn't go on StewMac and buy a $30 top. I already addressed this. My dad is a university instructor who makes $50,000 and we are in deep debt, so we have money to spend, but not much. Don't tell me to get a job either, because I am going to this summer.

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## Drew Streip

I guess I just don't understand why you're so willing to accept mediocrity or failure when you've been shown a clear path to success. You've said you'll make other instruments -- why does your first instrument have to be the one that's outside the box? 

Your plan offers no clear benefit in 1) cost 2) ease of construction 3) promise of good sound quality. Fine -- be different for the sake of being different. I wish you luck.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> I guess I just don't understand why you're so willing to accept mediocrity or failure when you've been shown a clear path to success. You've said you'll make other instruments -- why does your first instrument have to be the one that's outside the box? 
> 
> Your plan offers no clear benefit in 1) cost 2) ease of construction 3) promise of good sound quality. Fine -- be different for the sake of being different. I wish you luck.


Again, I don't think it will sound bad one bit. Also, poplar happens to be easier to carve so I guess number 2 is knocked down too. And getting a nice piece of poplar is much cheaper than getting a nice piece of Engelmann spruce, so there's number 1. I am not being different for the sake of being different. I am being different because I think it will still work, and why not? My first instrument has to be the outside the box one because prices in the USA are way higher than India, where I can get wood from my grandpa's plantation, take it to the mill, and kiln dry it for super cheap. Also, congratulations on getting married.

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## Jim Garber

Here's a *very short thread* from almost ten years ago on the subject of hardwood tops for flattop mandolins. There are some more top luthiers posting who give their opinions.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Here's a *very short thread* from almost ten years ago on the subject of hardwood tops for flattop mandolins. There are some more top luthiers posting who give their opinions.


Thanks Jim, but I already read that, and it doesn't say anything about the actual softness and density of the wood itself, except that birch worked fine, which further proves my point that a hardwood top doesn't directly translate to a bad instrument.

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## Jim Garber

> Also, poplar happens to be easier to carve so I guess number 2 is knocked down too.


Very confusing... I thought that you decided to make a flattop mandolin. 

Well, I think you are absolutely resolute on you decision. Please report back here. Let us know how it all works out and post photos of your progress.




> Thanks Jim, but I already read that, and it doesn't say anything about the actual softness and density of the wood itself, except that birch worked fine, which further proves my point that a hardwood top doesn't directly translate to a bad instrument.


Those birch mandolins from the 1930s are flattops and low budget models. They sound OK for what they are.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

I guess there is nothing I can do to convince you all unless I prove you wrong. Or I might just give in and buy some pine or spruce. But that just feels weak now that I've outright disrespected all of the talented people on here.

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## Jim Garber

> I guess there is nothing I can do to convince you all unless I prove you wrong. Or I might just give in and buy some pine or spruce. But that just feels weak now that I've outright disrespected all of the talented people on here.


This is getting pretty strange. Good luck and let us know how it goes... or where it goes.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Very confusing... I thought that you decided to make a flattop mandolin. 
> 
> Well, I think you are absolutely resolute on you decision. Please report back here. Let us know how it all works out and post photos of your progress.
> 
> 
> 
> Those birch mandolins from the 1930s are flattops and low budget models. They sound OK for what they are.


I said an arch-top flat-back.

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## Jeff Mando

> I have no friends, and no life. What I don't have is a ton of money. That is why I didn't go on StewMac and buy a $30 top.  Don't tell me to get a job either, because I am going to this summer.


This is about a $30 piece of wood?!!!!  Like I say, this thread is very addictive, IMHO!  :Grin: 

When I want to save $30, I just hop on a plane to India and get it cheaper there!!!!!  :Crying: 

I don't have much else to offer, EXCEPT there is an interesting and informative video on youtube about two homeless young people in New Orleans who, instead of feeling sorry for their situation, embrace it -- that is to say -- they panhandle enough in the morning everyday to hit the Logan's Steakhouse $8.99 early bird special from 3-6pm everyday.  They are homeless and they eat steak everyday.  I work everyday and I don't.  Gotta love it!  :Laughing:

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## Marty Jacobson

Hi Pranav, everyone here wants you to succeed. We're here to help you succeed. 

Take a look at this: 


This is my second mandolin. I was high on the success of my first mandolin (which still plays, but doesn't get played much). So I decided to bust my ideas out into the world in style. Extreme neck angle for "better projection"? Check. Nine piece neck of curly maple and cocobolo just because I can? Different styling (as I see it now, a mediocre D'angelico knockoff), check! Relieved bracing (bracing with holes drilled in it because engineering), check! A bunch of other stuff, check!

All this stuff that I'd read about on online forums, I piled it all into this instrument. 400 hours, man. 
I strung it up and the top collapsed. It didn't explode, it just flattened out. Unplayable.
Sounded great, the 2-3 notes I got to hear before the strings hit the fretboard.

So here's my advice to you. Build something.
Option A: Build conservatively and based on conventional wisdom, as we have all advised you. Probably get a playable instrument.

Option B: Do your thing. Show us all how it's done. Put all your theories to the test. Dump all the knowledge of Wikipedia into your work. As a result, you WILL learn something. And maybe we will, too. Maybe you'll end up with a playable instrument, maybe not. Who cares? You'll be smarter, and maybe more humble. :-)

----------

hank, 

Jim Garber, 

Matt Harris, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> This is about a $30 piece of wood?!!!!  Like I say, this thread is very addictive, IMHO!
> 
> I don't have much else to offer, EXCEPT there is an interesting and informative video on youtube about two homeless young people in New Orleans who, instead of feeling sorry for their situation, embrace it -- that is to say -- they panhandle enough in the morning everyday to hit the Logan's Steakhouse $8.99 early bird special from 3-6pm everyday.  They are homeless and they eat steak everyday.  I work everyday and I don't.  Gotta love it!


I'm not going to India for this. I am going to visit my sick grandparents, and go to a wedding, and spend time with my family. It's just that this is also a great opportunity to get some nice, exotic wood for very cheap  :Smile: .

----------

Jeff Mando

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Hi Pranav, everyone here wants you to succeed. We're here to help you succeed. 
> 
> Take a look at this: 
> 
> 
> This is my second mandolin. I was high on the success of my first mandolin (which still plays, but doesn't get played much). So I decided to bust my ideas out into the world in style. Extreme neck angle for "better projection"? Check. Nine piece neck of curly maple and cocobolo just because I can? Different styling (as I see it now, a mediocre D'angelico knockoff), check! Relieved bracing (bracing with holes drilled in it because engineering), check! A bunch of other stuff, check!
> 
> All this stuff that I'd read about on online forums, I piled it all into this instrument. 400 hours, man. 
> I strung it up and the top collapsed. It didn't explode, it just flattened out. Unplayable.
> ...


Thanks, that was super nice and also, that is a super cool mandolin. What is the wood on top? It is beautiful. I'm going to take a mix of mostly option A, but might swirl a bit of B in, haha.

----------


## sblock

Someone here on the MC has these very wise words from Pete Seeger in his profile, and they ring true for your case:

*Education is when you read the fine print.
Experience is what you get if you don't.*

The advice being offered to you here is well-intentioned, and it's good advice, for the most part.  It is unquestionably more efficient, when starting out, to learn by going down some well-tested path, and then to assimilate what you've learned, and take it in a new direction from there, if you have the desire to explore.  Not to start out blithely in an unknown direction in the vain hope that you will get lucky and it will all pan out, based on your untutored instincts.  We all know this is not really about saving $30 here or there!  In the final analysis, it's _your_ investment in time and money and hard labor, and you get to choose your own path. If you carry through with this project, you will gain an education or you will gain experience. Perhaps both. And you may find that your perspective will mature. In that case, you will gain humility along with experience. Nothing wrong with that, either.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Still curious if anybody can address this.



> The density of poplar is 22-31 lb per feet cubed. The density of spruce is 25-44 lb per feet cubed. Poplar is also proven to be much softer.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

I am solid on this now. Nobody will change my mind. And I will try my absolute hardest to prove you all wrong, but if it fails, I will take the humility, and I will build a "conventional" mandolin. If it doesn't fail, I will go with obnoxiously untraditional ideas. I realize I am naive, but I'd rather be naive while being a hormonal teenager than be naive while being an unemployed 30 year old.  :Laughing:

----------


## Marty Jacobson

> I am solid on this now. Nobody will change my mind. And I will try my absolute hardest to prove you all wrong, but if it fails, I will take the humility, and I will build a "conventional" mandolin. If it doesn't fail, I will go with obnoxiously untraditional ideas. I realize I am naive, but I'd rather be naive while being a hormonal teenager than be naive while being an unemployed 30 year old.


Go for it. Check out this walnut-topped mandolin made by Canadian luthier/genius Brian Dean (also with- you guessed it - no power tools). I've had one in my possession for a while, and it's amazing (and worth more than both of my cars combined). It doesn't sound like any other mandolin. But it's still a useful and inspiring musical tool.



You can be unconventional and make it work. Probably not on the first try.... but... you gotta start somewhere.

The wood on that mandolin I built is curly redwood. It's my favorite wood for mandolin tops because it is easy to work with, sounds fantastic, and looks the business.

As to your quibble about wood density, that's wood density averages for the species. The "poplar" you get at Home Depot isn't even poplar, so that's irrelevant to begin with. Further, tonewood selected for instruments will be different, because all the super dense stuff (or whatever you're selecting for) is discarded or turned into window frames. Also, at a more fundamental level, there is essentially 0 correlation between the numbers you read on Wikipedia and the actual sample of wood you have in your hand. You can make absolutely no assumptions. You have to measure the individual sample. Wood varies that much. You can have a top that's too stiff at a certain dimension from one part of a board, and a top that's too floppy a the same thickness from an adjacent place in the same board. Wood's part of a living thing, and there is a high level of stochasticity involved.

----------

hank, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## sblock

> Still curious if anybody can address this.


*Density*, *hardness*, and *stiffness* (modulus of elasticity, or Youngs modulus) are three entirely different material properties of wood. Two tonewoods with the same nominal density can nevertheless sound entirely different in a musical instrument because they may have rather different elastic properties. There are additional factors to consider, too, including things like the degree of _anisotropy_ in these three properties, because wood behaves differently in the grain direction and across it. 

Simply picking two woods that happen to have similar densities (in some table) is not a sufficient basis to conjecture that they will sound alike. Furthermore, as the previous poster noted, you need to know the values for _your_ selected piece of wood, not for the average values found in a table. Wood varies too much from tree to tree.

You could consult *here* is you want to look at a table, but it won't tell you much.

Finally, tonewoods also have a different propensity to 'settle in' over time, and they respond differently to changes in humidity, which induces dimensional changes. There's a lot to consider, and that is why some luthiers have developed genuine expertise over many years of experience.  Listen carefully to them, I'd advise.

----------

hank, 

Inklings, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Dale Ludewig

Pranav,

What we're seeking in tonewoods is a combination of density and weight and stiffness. Did you notice that softness isn't in that combination? All species of wood are different in these characteristics. And within species different pieces of wood can be vastly different. Red spruce, for example, tends to have a pretty high stiffness compared to a piece of Englemann, for a piece of wood that is the same dimensions. There's a boatload of characteristics that go into what will work as a top wood, side wood, neck wood. With all due respect, characteristics that you have no experience with measuring or sensing. There is a reason why certain woods have been found to be successful in instrument construction. 

And you must realize that even some firmly held beliefs by people that haven't built instruments aren't true. For example, it is often taken for granted that tight grain is stiffer and better for a top wood. I have some fir here, quartersawn, with a grain count of about 32 gpi. It's a stiff as a piece of cardboard. I have red spruce (from Old Standard, BTW) that has a grain count of about 4 gpi. It is really stiff and light and rings "like a bell".

The builders here have offered advice built on years of experience, mistakes, failures and successes. You'll do what you want. We all do, or at least try to. Good luck.

----------

hank, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Jeff Mando

> I realize I am naive, but I'd rather be naive while being a hormonal teenager than be naive while being an unemployed 30 year old.


I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say this might be about more than building a mandolin.......

I wouldn't worry about age, it is just a number, so they say.....well, actually I distinctly remember being a teenager and wanting people to take me seriously, so.....it never happened, of course, I had to wait to adulthood and sometimes they still don't!  LOL

But, actually, 30 is very young to be a master luthier, IMHO.  40 or 50 is probably young to make a great living from it!  Like the old joke goes, make sure your wife has a good job!

----------


## HoGo

Just for more inspiration, you can try to make yourslef some thumbplanes like this... You can see the guts as this one is case from epoxy resin. I've meade few like this out of any hard wood. You can do it out of single block (start with square and roud off after you chisel the inside) or make walls separate and twopieces for front and back and glue them together (in this case you will learn how to join small pieces precisely). For blade you can use piece of old knife (close to 1/16" thick would be best) or ask at local machinist for thrown awy piece of carbon steel or HSS (dull blade of machine saw is perfect).
You should make the sides a bit taller at the pin so the wood won't crack. The epoxy seems to hold well.

----------

Jim Garber, 

John Kelly, 

pops1, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## John Kelly

Gentlemen,  I have the distinct feeling that we are entering the world of classical mythology rather than luthierie in this thread.  I am minded of Hercules and the labour of cleaning out the Augean stables, and Sysiphus condemned eternally to rolling a huge boulder up the hill only for it to roll back to the bottom each time.

Pranav, you will have to be careful with your choices of wood you try to bring back to the USA from India.  Many species are now forbidden under CITES and other legislation and I would hate to hear of you turning up at Customs with your chosen timbers only to have the wood confiscated and maybe have a heavy fine imposed on you.  I'm sure some of the professional builders who have already input so much into this thread will be able to advise on current banned timbers, or you could just check on the internet.  Just typing in "luthiers and CITES" gave me 79,500 hits!

----------

Timbofood

----------


## pelone

What a lovely bird house!  I, at one time, was stubborn enough to persist in using exotic woods for a mando top other than those recommended to me by many of the expert builders and members of Mandolin Cafe.  The finished project was fantastic looking---very impressive.  When I had completed stringing it up and began to play, reality set in and I discovered how wrong my convictions were.  I redeemed my invested hours of labor by converting the mando into a bird house and hung it in my back yard.

----------

Drew Streip, 

hank, 

Jeff Mando, 

John Kelly

----------


## Jim Garber

> Just for more inspiration, you can try to make yourslef some thumbplanes like this...


Adrian, I love that resin thumbplane as well as that thumb that goes with it. Either that is a very big thumb or a very small thumbplane.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> What a lovely bird house!  I, at one time, was stubborn enough to persist in using exotic woods for a mando top other than those recommended to me by many of the expert builders and members of Mandolin Cafe.  The finished project was fantastic looking---very impressive.  When I had completed stringing it up and began to play, reality set in and I discovered how wrong my convictions were.  I redeemed my invested hours of labor by converting the mando into a bird house and hung it in my back yard.


Sorry, but if you were trying to change my mind, it's not going to happen. It might not sound like a Lloyd Loar, but I personally think I will like it. Time will tell how it turns out.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Also, I will be making a flattop because it will help balance out the shrill, loud, quick, treble from using a hardwood top, and it might just be me, but flattops always sound more bassy to me.

----------


## Jeff Mando

> I said an arch-top flat-back.


You are back to a flat top again, right?

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> You are back to a flat top again, right?


Now I am, yeah, because I am using poplar.

----------


## Jeff Mando

How can you be in high school and spend so much time on Mandolin Café?

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> How can you be in high school and spend so much time on Mandolin Café?


Lunch break, finishing work quickly, and a lot of free time at home.

----------

Jeff Mando

----------


## sblock

I hope you are aware that poplar does not handle humidity changes very well, and is reputed to warp over time, especially in thinner pieces.  It also can look "greenish" tinged, so unless you get a very white piece or plan to stain it dark, beware.  Poplar is used quite a bit for electric guitar bodies.  Not so much for acoustic instruments.  There are reasons for this!

----------


## HoGo

> Adrian, I love that resin thumbplane as well as that thumb that goes with it. Either that is a very big thumb or a very small thumbplane.


The thumb is of average size, blade is actually 12 mm (1/2") wide or so... The bottom is made of bone. Resin did wear in no time and wood was not hard enough as well so I replaced it with piece of bone I had at hand. My go-to thumbplane ever since...

PS: sorry for the unusually bad grammar and typos in my previous post. I was typing in hurry during short break and didn't read it it again before posting.

----------

hank

----------


## billhay4

> I hope you are aware that poplar does not handle humidity changes very well, and is reputed to warp over time, especially in thinner pieces. It also can look "greenish" tinged, so unless you get a very white piece or plan to stain it dark, beware. Poplar is used quite a bit for electric guitar bodies. Not so much for acoustic instruments. There are reasons for this!


I am not sure this is entirely accurate. Eastern poplar (Liriodendron tulipifera) is widely used in upholstered furniture as casing. I cannot believe they would use a wood warps easily is such a large commercial application but I may be wrong.
I does has a greenish tinge is some cases, but there are also wonderfully figured and colored (purplish) examples from old poplar trees. I would think a nice quarter sawn piece would be worth a risk.
Again, I may be wrong on all of this, but I've dealt with a lot of poplar.
Bill

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> I hope you are aware that poplar does not handle humidity changes very well, and is reputed to warp over time, especially in thinner pieces.  It also can look "greenish" tinged, so unless you get a very white piece or plan to stain it dark, beware.  Poplar is used quite a bit for electric guitar bodies.  Not so much for acoustic instruments.  There are reasons for this!


I am going to wait for others' comments on the humidity and warping, as for the green tinge, that's what I love about it. I find it very appealing. If the warping humidity problem is a thing, I will use spruce or pine. I'm not gonna build something if I know it's gonna be an outright failure. I will still keep it flat top though, because I think I like the sound, and I think I'll build an archtop in India, where the wood is cheaper. Also, I didn't mean I want to bring wood here from India, I meant I want to build the instrument while I am at India. I think this is looking good if I end up having to use spruce.

----------


## Dale Ludewig

From my experience, poplar is very stable at "furniture" thicknesses. Like 3/4" and up. I don't have any experience using it at like 1/8" thickness that you'd be using for a flat top mandolin which will be braced underneath. But it could still do what we call the "potato chip". The top could move and warp despite the bracing. In poplar, the green will go away and turn to tan. The purple will go away and turn darker brown. If you're looking at that $12 piece of spruce from StewMac, I'd say go for it. I'm not trying to convince you of something or change your mind. Just talking from experience and lessons learned the hard way.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Ok I am 100% no question using spruce or pine for the top. I know you probably don't trust this because I keep going back and forth, so I will calm down on this thread until I get my piece of wood, my plans, practice, and get started.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Would this  work as well? I should be getting a $20 amazon gift card this weekend, and I don't have to buy any more tools right now, so it would cover the cost.

----------


## Dale Ludewig

According to the dimensions of the wood based on your link, that stuff isn't long enough for a mandolin top. Technically, it could possibly work because you normally cut the top off where the neck comes in, but it would take careful planning by someone who's done it before. I know I wouldn't risk it. Pranav, do you have a set of plans?

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> According to the dimensions of the wood based on your link, that stuff isn't long enough for a mandolin top. Technically, it could possibly work because you normally cut the top off where the neck comes in, but it would take careful planning by someone who's done it before. I know I wouldn't risk it. Pranav, do you have a set of plans?


Not yet.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> According to the dimensions of the wood based on your link, that stuff isn't long enough for a mandolin top. Technically, it could possibly work because you normally cut the top off where the neck comes in, but it would take careful planning by someone who's done it before. I know I wouldn't risk it. Pranav, do you have a set of plans?


But it would be 18" long when put together. I thought that is enough?

----------


## Dale Ludewig

No. The boards are apparently 12.6" long and a little over 9" wide. You need 10" wide minimum for a mandolin. And you can't glue the "boards" together end to end. I would suggest humbly that you get a set of plans before you go on your adventure. Kind of like a map before you set out to sea. I forget the name of the Scandinavian guy that did his adventure, but check out Kon-Tiki. A wild ride on a raft across the ocean. Maps and plans are a good thing. At the least, they're helpful.

I believe you are of Indian descent. And I love Indian food and do my best to cook it often at home. And some things are problematic for me- like cooking dosa. I have recipes. I can buy the batter at a local store. I've watched videos and watched it cooked in restaurants and friends' homes. And it's still hard to do right. It's a lot like building a mandolin.  :Smile:

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> ...I forget the name of the Scandinavian guy that did his adventure, but check out Kon-Tiki. A wild ride on a raft across the ocean....


Thor Heyerdahl.

----------

Dale Ludewig

----------


## HoGo

Drawings are on the way. Hard to tell when they get there...

----------

pops1, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> No. The boards are apparently 12.6" long and a little over 9" wide. You need 10" wide minimum for a mandolin. And you can't glue the "boards" together end to end.
> 
> I believe you are of Indian descent. And I love Indian food and do my best to cook it often at home. And some things are problematic for me- like cooking dosa. I have recipes. I can buy the batter at a local store. I've watched videos and watched it cooked in restaurants and friends' homes. And it's still hard to do right. It's a lot like building a mandolin.


I thought that is how bookmatching works (at least for archtops)?

Haha, luckily, I happen to be good in that area  :Smile: . I'm surprised (and delighted) you know about dosas, considering the fact that most Americans only know about North Indian foods (it gets tiring telling people I don't know how to make naan and chicken tikka masala).

----------


## pops1

Bookmatching works with the long grain of the wood, not the end grain.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Would this work well? https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F162895467888

----------


## jwpope

Pranav,
 Contact John Preston over at Old World Tonewoods in Lewisburg, WV. I've purchased some beautiful spruce tops in the $15-$20 range from him in the past. Super Nice guy too!

----------

hank

----------


## Marty Jacobson

> Would this work well? https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F162895467888


Yep. I'd probably leave it 3mm thick as it is now, just sand it smooth and add an X brace and you're on your way. Alaskan cedar needs to be about 50% thicker than spruce, at least in the center.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Yep. I'd probably leave it 3mm thick as it is now, just sand it smooth and add an X brace and you're on your way. Alaskan cedar needs to be about 50% thicker than spruce, at least in the center.


Unfortunately, that was bought. Would this work?
http://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and...RoC8LQQAvD_BwE

----------


## Matt Harris

You need a plan before you start buying things. Otherwise you may (likely will) end up wasting money at some point in the process.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> You need a plan before you start buying things. Otherwise you may (likely will) end up wasting money at some point in the process.


I need a plan before buying wood? I thought I just need the minimum sizes.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

It's a good thing y'all told me to practice. I was practicing a few minutes ago by making a little plane, and the chisel slipped and made a huge deep gash in my left hand. Blood spurted out (I think I might have hit a vessel), and got all over my practice pine. If that were a real part of my mando, boy, would I have a story to tell people when they tell me, "that's a beautiful piece of cedar, love the red splotches".  :Laughing:

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

going to get stitches now

----------


## Jeff Mando

> going to get stitches now


Like I say, this is an entertaining thread.  Already at 9 pages, I think it has the potential to go the distance!

FWIW, Pranav, I hope you were joking about the stitches.  Otherwise, I hope you are OK.  Big, big disclaimer with all tools -- power or not -- be really careful EVERYTIME you pick one up.

30+ years ago I worked in a warehouse, packing boxes, using a tape gun and a box cutter.  First day there I cut myself.  Second day there I cut myself again.  Third day I cut myself deep and there was blood everywhere.  After that I never cut myself again.

----------

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## pops1

Talking to a friend of mine decades ago, who also was a luthier. He said he was at a dinner with friends, all luthiers, he was looking around the table and happened to notice he was the only one with all his fingers. BE CAREFUL!!! We work with sharp, very sharp tools and a slip can lead to blood, stitches, and or loss of something we all want to keep. Most all of us that work with sharp things cut ourselves at some point, usually earlier than later. When I worked in a printing shop many decades ago I would get paper cuts, they hurt, but were not serious. After several years printing it was extremely rare to get a paper cut. Most here have talked about going slow, there is a reason to take it easy and go slow. I hope you are all right and didn't cut too deeply.

----------

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Like I say, this is an entertaining thread.  Already at 9 pages, I think it has the potential to go the distance!
> 
> FWIW, Pranav, I hope you were joking about the stitches.  Otherwise, I hope you are OK.  Big, big disclaimer with all tools -- power or not -- be really careful EVERYTIME you pick one up.
> 
> 30+ years ago I worked in a warehouse, packing boxes, using a tape gun and a box cutter.  First day there I cut myself.  Second day there I cut myself again.  Third day I cut myself deep and there was blood everywhere.  After that I never cut myself again.


Not joking, my friend. Just got them. I can't tell if you say entertaining in a sarcastic mocking way, or genuinely think so, but I think so too. I might just make a soap opera based on an indecisive teenager making a mandolin.  :Smile:

----------


## Jeff Mando

It's all in good fun.  Maybe a little mockery.  Probably some sarcasm.  But, I certainly don't want to be entertained at the misery of others -- that's what COPS is for!  :Laughing:  :Crying:  :Laughing: 

I was comparing your journey to another thread called "the search continues" by Demetrius from a couple years ago.  I referred to it in post #147.  Anyway, do a Google search, it is worth reading, might take you an hour if you read fast.  It is a classic, IMHO.  But, totally different than from where you are coming from.  But, sure, extended internet forums are basically low budget reality tv!

And, I said this before on this forum and others, reading them is cheap therapy for many of us!

No hard feelings, Pranav!  I want you to succeed.

----------

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> It's all in good fun.  Maybe a little mockery.  Probably some sarcasm.  But, I certainly don't want to be entertained at the misery of others -- that's what COPS is for! 
> 
> I was comparing your journey to another thread called "the search continues" by Demetrius from a couple years ago.  I referred to it in post #147.  Anyway, do a Google search, it is worth reading, might take you an hour if you read fast.  It is a classic, IMHO.  But, totally different than from where you are coming from.  But, sure, extended internet forums are basically low budget reality tv!
> 
> And, I said this before on this forum and others, reading them is cheap therapy for many of us!
> 
> No hard feelings, Pranav!  I want you to succeed.


Haha found it. From the outside it sure is funny, but god do i hope i don't sound like that lol.  :Wink:

----------


## John Kelly

I really loved you post #208, Pranav - "_going to get stitches now_"  You have suddenly become a man of very few words.  The warnings re sharp tools are obviously something that is critical for us all when working with all the dangerous implements we use, but remember too that there is perhaps even greater danger from tools which have not been sharpened properly.  A blunted chisel will require much more force to get it to cut, and this is when a slip is much more likely.  Did you have the wood suitably gripped in a vise or other method of clamping?  

Hope you are not out of action for too long.  :Crying:

----------


## Marty Jacobson

Hey Pranav, I've been there, too. I was doing something stupid with a razor blade (i.e. trying to work efficiently rather than safely) and cut my hand. It was a miracle the blood didn't get on the curly redwood mandolin top, which would have been unusable since it was already sanded to final surface finish. 
What I realized from that was that you have to always be aware of:
1. What direction forces are being applied,
2. How big the forces are,
3. If the forces you're applying to the sharp thing are enough to move the sharp thing towards your hand, should something unexpected occur,
4. Then don't do that.

This basically works for any tool, including jointers, planers, bandsaws, chisels, etc. One of the reasons why people like to use a mallet with gouges for carving is that you give a sharp tap to the carving tool which moves it with a lot of force, but only moves it a very short distance. 

I also realized that I stopped to check the mandolin top before I checked my injury... dumb, I know. Anyway, since I did that, several years ago, I haven't hurt myself since. Other than the repetitive stress injuries I gave myself by sanding, so that's an ongoing battle.

Watch some videos online of people carving or cutting dovetails. Watch where their hands are, and set up your work like that. At no point should your tool be cutting towards a part of your body, even if there is wood (or a workbench) between the tool and you.

Also, are you clamping down your work? You cannot work safely, and you cannot work carefully, if your part that you are carving is not held down to your workbench.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Ehrm. I know you will facepalm when you read this, but no, I did not clamp it. What's worse is I don't have a workbench. I usually lay a mat down in my basement floor, and sit on there and work. I probably sound really stupid right now.

----------


## John Kelly

> Ehrm. I know you will facepalm when you read this, but no, I did not clamp it. What's worse is I don't have a workbench. I usually lay a mat down in my basement floor, and sit on there and work. I probably sound really stupid right now.


You are only stupid if you do not learn from it, Pranav.  Marty's post highlights how simple it is to injure yourself but to learn from it and be able to eliminate some potential accident scenarios.  I wrote my post above as one who has managed, many years ago, to put a power drill into my thumb while helping a friend to install a shower.  I had just warned him to keep his hands clear of what he was holding, as I was almost through the aluminium frame, when the drill broke through and I neatly skewered my left thumb.  I too had to go for stitches!

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> I really loved you post #208, Pranav - "going to get stitches now" You have suddenly become a man of very few words.


 Haha I became a man of few words because I can only type with my right hand.  :Laughing:  



> You are only stupid if you do not learn from it, Pranav.  Marty's post highlights how simple it is to injure yourself but to learn from it and be able to eliminate some potential accident scenarios.  I wrote my post above as one who has managed, many years ago, to put a power drill into my thumb while helping a friend to install a shower.  I had just warned him to keep his hands clear of what he was holding, as I was almost through the aluminium frame, when the drill broke through and I neatly skewered my left thumb.  I too had to go for stitches!


Yep, you learn from your mistakes. Does somebody know if you can convert a normal desk into a workbench? What exactly qualifies a workbench?

----------


## pops1

A desk or kitchen table, a board or piece of plywood. Anything can be a work bench, it's nice it you can reinforce it and screw or secure it to a wall to keep it solid and from moving. A bench with you sitting on it can work, it is also nice to be able to clamp your work to the bench to keep you hands on the tool and not having to hold the tool and the work.

----------


## Marty Jacobson

Many Japanese and Japanese-inspired woodworkers work on the floor. It's fine, you just need a way to secure your work. Look up Japanese woodworking videos, you will see lots of examples (and some very enviable sharpening skills...)

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> No. The boards are apparently 12.6" long and a little over 9" wide. You need 10" wide minimum for a mandolin. And you can't glue the "boards" together end to end. I would suggest humbly that you get a set of plans before you go on your adventure. Kind of like a map before you set out to sea. I forget the name of the Scandinavian guy that did his adventure, but check out Kon-Tiki. A wild ride on a raft across the ocean. Maps and plans are a good thing. At the least, they're helpful.
> 
> I believe you are of Indian descent. And I love Indian food and do my best to cook it often at home. And some things are problematic for me- like cooking dosa. I have recipes. I can buy the batter at a local store. I've watched videos and watched it cooked in restaurants and friends' homes. And it's still hard to do right. It's a lot like building a mandolin.





> Bookmatching works with the long grain of the wood, not the end grain.


 I was looking at the link once more and it seems to work by gluing the long grain. If you glue the two pieces together by the long grain, they should be 18" by 12". If you did it by the end grain it would be 9" by 24", which wouldn't work anyways.

----------


## Marty Jacobson

Gluing side grain, if the surfaces are perfectly flat, the glue is good, and the joint is clamped well, is stronger than the surrounding wood. Gluing end grain is always much weaker than the surrounding wood. This predicates how a lot of glue joints are designed.

Getting a good glue joint is one of the hardest parts of woodworking. You can't just take two pieces of wood and glue them together. They have to be planed perfectly in multiple axes (no twist or curve in any direction). Turns out that's not easy to do.

----------

Jess L., 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Gluing side grain, if the surfaces are perfectly flat, the glue is good, and the joint is clamped well, is stronger than the surrounding wood. Gluing end grain is always much weaker than the surrounding wood. This predicates how a lot of glue joints are designed.
> 
> Getting a good glue joint is one of the hardest parts of woodworking. You can't just take two pieces of wood and glue them together. They have to be planed perfectly in multiple axes (no twist or curve in any direction). Turns out that's not easy to do.


Still not completely understanding, but I'll take your word for it. Anybody have a recommendation for what to buy with the $20 gift card? Maybe a vice, ryoba saw, jigsaw, or tonewood? If anybody needs something on Amazon, I could also use it for that, and you could pay me $20 through PayPal.

----------


## Marty Jacobson

I'd get a couple of these if you don't have any clamps. Total should come to under $30 including shipping...
https://www.amazon.com/Bessey-GSCC2-...5%3A2470955011

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> I'd get a couple of these if you don't have any clamps. Total should come to under $30 including shipping...
> https://www.amazon.com/Bessey-GSCC2-...5%3A2470955011


Luckily, I already have access to various clamps, so I'm good in that department.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Bought a vice for 7.88. Saving the rest for later.

----------


## Marty Jacobson

> Luckily, I already have access to various clamps, so I'm good in that department.


Hmm... OK. I have a wall full of them, and still don't have enough. :-) 
A vise is useful to have, and everyone should have at least one vice.

----------

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Hmm... OK. I have a wall full of them, and still don't have enough. :-) 
> A vise is useful to have, and everyone should have at least one vice.


I guess you're right, you can always use more clamps, it's just not the top priority right now, and if I desperately need more, I could probably make some. I'm saving the rest of the Amazon money for the hardware at the end of the project. I found this nice, cheap tonewood here and it'll only cost $18 total after shipping, so that's great. Once my left hand becomes usable again (probably around the end of the week), I'll get right back to building. My plan right now is to wait for Adrian's plans to arrive, carve out the back, make an MDF or cardboard mould, prepare a side bending rig, bend the sides and fit them to the mould, buy the soundboard wood I linked earlier, make a top, buy some wood for the neck, cut it in half, put some veneers in the middle, glue it up, carve it up, make a fretboard, glue the fretboard to a neck, glue the overlay on the headstock, put together the body, glue it all up, and add hardware. If all goes as planned, this will be great fun.

----------


## pelone

Parnav-----Yeah...easy peasy....bata bing, bata boom. Please let me see a photo of your finished project.

----------


## Marty Jacobson

> My plan right now is to wait for Adrian's plans to arrive, carve out the back, make an MDF or cardboard mould, prepare a side bending rig, bend the sides and fit them to the mould, buy the soundboard wood I linked earlier, make a top, buy some wood for the neck, cut it in half, put some veneers in the middle, glue it up, carve it up, make a fretboard, glue the fretboard to a neck, glue the overlay on the headstock, put together the body, glue it all up, and add hardware. If all goes as planned, this will be great fun.


It will be great fun. And no, it won't go as planned. Be prepared for that. But that's exactly what makes it fun.

I tell my students all the time... don't make your vision a reality, let reality shape your vision. By making mistakes and figuring things out, you're making your idea far better than it was originally in your head. That's the whole point of building something.

----------


## Steve Sorensen

Pranav,

This is just painful.  

Spend your first $25.00 HERE and your next $22 HERE

When you've read the both books, cover to cover, you'll be in a place where what you are dreaming of doing makes some sense and you can ask questions which actually will help you get supplies and start.

If you don't have the drive, focus, and maturity to buy and read a couple of books before you get started, the odds are stacked against you.  Ignorance is not your friend.  

AND, for the love of all that is simple, Google "Building a mandolin" and spend a month reading all the many web sites and watching the hundreds of YouTube videos that are on the internet 24x7.

The worst part of reading this long and painful string is that so much information is at your fingertips . . . if you would take the time to look.  

Quit trying to take shortcuts and do your homework.

Steve

----------

hank, 

Jess L., 

John Kelly, 

Matt Harris, 

Timbofood

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Parnav-----Yeah...easy peasy....bata bing, bata boom. Please let me see a photo of your finished project.


I never said it will be easy. I don't see why the sarcasm was necessary. I just simply said my game plan for this project. This will likely take me months, maybe a year or two. I know it will be hard.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Pranav,
> 
> This is just painful.  
> 
> Spend your first $25.00 HERE and your next $22 HERE
> 
> When you've read the both books, cover to cover, you'll be in a place where what you are dreaming of doing makes some sense and you can ask questions which actually will help you get supplies and start.
> 
> If you don't have the drive, focus, and maturity to buy and read a couple of books before you get started, the odds are stacked against you.  Ignorance is not your friend.  
> ...


I don't see how I am taking shortcuts. I have spent literally all of my free time in the past 3 weeks figuring out what to do and studying the work of other luthiers. Why are you assuming I didn't? How do you think I made a plan for this project? I thought people on this forum were nice, and they have been, but that was some unnecessary hostility. Condescending as well.

----------


## Timbofood

Pranav, I had excused myself from this but your last comment is a little naive. 
Not one person here has said you CANT do this, they have almost without exception have supported your desire to build but, how do you espxpect to really glean expertise from some of the very, very talented luthiers if you don’t listen to the basic information that is offered. If you can’t afford the books to read and learn from the expense of the tools is wasted.
Steve is making a clear point, read the “How to” information first, they will become reference material you can use for a long time. Getting Adrian’s plans is all well and good, they are beautiful!  I’m glad you backed off the “I want to build an F-5” idea in favor of a more basic flat topped instrument, wise move.
The fact that you have admitted your limited knowledge and skills is equally refreshing but, until you have read some, and studied some plans, at least learned how to sharpen tools you should expect a little criticism.
Building an F-5 right out of the gate with no experience was a very grand thought but rather trying to build the Mackinaw Bridge with a hacksaw and a napkin sketch. 
You have made more than one reference to buying wood with no understanding of the joinery involved, another claim of having enough clamps with no idea of how things will need to be positioned. The books are excellent resources with plans and instructions, smart to use other peoples expertise.  You don’t really need to get your back up at Steve, he’s just trying to save you money, more injury and headache by telling you to learn some basics.
I’m sure now I have fallen into the condescending, mean spirit list but, that’s just the way I see it. Have fun, don’t hurt yourself, we’re all really trying to help no matter how it sounds.
Just for the record, three weeks is NOTHING in the learning curve of building instruments, Adrian spent YEARS drawing his plans, spend three weeks more reading the books than another three learning how to sharpen tools, then another three making the first joint...ad nauseum.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Pranav, I had excused myself from this but your last comment is a little naive. 
> Not one person here has said you CANT do this, they have almost without exception have supported your desire to build but, how do you espxpect to really glean expertise from some of the very, very talented luthiers if you don’t listen to the basic information that is offered. If you can’t afford the books to read and learn from the expense of the tools is wasted.
> Steve is making a clear point, read the “How to” information first, they will become reference material you can use for a long time. Getting Adrian’s plans is all well and good, they are beautiful!  I’m glad you backed off the “I want to build an F-5” idea in favor of a more basic flat topped instrument, wise move.
> The fact that you have admitted your limited knowledge and skills is equally refreshing but, until you have read some, and studied some plans, at least learned how to sharpen tools you should expect a little criticism.
> Building an F-5 right out of the gate with no experience was a very grand thought but rather trying to build the Mackinaw Bridge with a hacksaw and a napkin sketch. You have made more than one reference to buying wood with no understanding if the joinery involved, you don’t really need to get your back up at Steve, he’s just trying to save you more injury and headache by telling you to learn some basics.
> I’m sure now I have fallen into the condescending, mean spirit list but, that’s just the way I see it. Have fun, don’t hurt yourself, we’re all really trying to help no matter how it sounds.


I may have forgotten to mention this, but I actually got the Siminoff book from my local library. I have learned to sharpen tools, and that is why I am practicing using them before starting on the good stock. I don't at all find you in that list. You have been helpful all of this time. All I said is how I plan to approach this project.

----------


## Tom Haywood

A couple of questions, Pranav, to help me gain some clarity. No condescension intended, so please bear with me. These are based on your earliest comments in this thread and comments in another thread. I, too, want to see you succeed.

1. Do you intend to build a playable mandolin or a piece of art? If it's art, then most of the advice you are getting here won't seem necessary, because, really, it isn't necessary. The advice here so far is from very experienced builders of mandolins intended to be purchased and played. If the intention is art only, then all this business about tone woods and joinery and so forth are not important. I will look forward to seeing the art you produce.

2. What experience do you have in carpentry? Creativity is wonderful. But there are "rules" about wood choices, what tools to use for certain tasks, and how to use those tools and be safe. You've already gotten a taste of that with the chisel. These "rules" come from experience. Learning them comes from experience, but guidance from someone who already has the experience is necessary or else you likely won't get very far. Same with the design of mandolins that are playable and sound good. I would rate mandolin building at the very top level of required carpentry skills - basically the next step above furniture building. All of the builders who have responded to you, so far as I can tell, have that level of skill. It takes many years of wood working to acquire it, and I believe most builders here were already at that skill level before they took on mandolins.

3. What kind of budget do you have available? If this is to build a piece of art, then $20 here and there will work. A playable mandolin requires a complete plan of action from start to finish - before you start, and that includes a budget for the necessary materials and actually purchasing most of them in advance.

4. Do you play the mandolin? It is not necessary that you do, but playing gives you a lot of information about what a playable mandolin should do.

I admire your goal and determination to achieve it. As Marty indicated earlier, let your goal be flexible because what you actually are capable of doing will show up as you proceed, and that will determine what you produce. It may not be what you intended originally, but it will still be a very good thing. And you already know that.

----------

Jess L., 

John Kelly, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> A couple of questions, Pranav, to help me gain some clarity. No condescension intended, so please bear with me. These are based on your earliest comments in this thread and comments in another thread. I, too, want to see you succeed.
> 
> 1. Do you intend to build a playable mandolin or a piece of art? If it's art, then most of the advice you are getting here won't seem necessary, because, really, it isn't necessary. The advice here so far is from very experienced builders of mandolins intended to be purchased and played. If the intention is art only, then all this business about tone woods and joinery and so forth are not important. I will look forward to seeing the art you produce.
> 
> 2. What experience do you have in carpentry? Creativity is wonderful. But there are "rules" about wood choices, what tools to use for certain tasks, and how to use those tools and be safe. You've already gotten a taste of that with the chisel. These "rules" come from experience. Learning them comes from experience, but guidance from someone who already has the experience is necessary or else you likely won't get very far. Same with the design of mandolins that are playable and sound good. I would rate mandolin building at the very top level of required carpentry skills - basically the next step above furniture building. All of the builders who have responded to you, so far as I can tell, have that level of skill. It takes many years of wood working to acquire it, and I believe most builders here were already at that skill level before they took on mandolins.
> 
> 3. What kind of budget do you have available? If this is to build a piece of art, then $20 here and there will work. A playable mandolin requires a complete plan of action from start to finish - before you start, and that includes a budget for the necessary materials and actually purchasing most of them in advance.
> 
> 4. Do you play the mandolin? It is not necessary that you do, but playing gives you a lot of information about what a playable mandolin should do.
> ...


1. Both. I want a very playable instrument, but I want it to feel like my own work of art. I want it to be unique to only me, and don;t want it to be normal, per se.

2. I have a decent bit of experience of woodworking with power tools, but hand tools aren't the most familiar.

3. I don't completely know what my budget is, but all I have to buy at this point is a soundboard piece ($20), neck blank(~$10), tuning pegs ($10), strings($6), maybe a bit of decorative pieces of wood or MoP for little embellishments, and I will be set (for the time being).

4. I do not yet play the mandolin, but I have played the violin for 7 years, so I'm not completely clueless.

----------

Tom Haywood

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Just a note, I want to make a back and bend the sides before buying anything else, because I want to prove to my dad that I'm not just wasting our money. I plan to start on the back this weekend, and plan to bend the sides once I find a propane torch or heat gun I can use. Also, I want to make it clear that my goal isn't to make a sellable mandolin. It's to make a playable mandolin as a "first shot" at luthierie. I will make more instruments if this fails or if it succeeds. I will be happy with my results as long as it sounds better than the Rogue RM100. The poplar top has unfortunately made itself appealing again. Let's all just stay quiet and see what happens however. I'll post pictures at the first step I take. All I have done so far is to make a plywood template.

----------

Tom Haywood

----------


## JeffD

> Pranav, you will have to be careful with your choices of wood you try to bring back to the USA from India.  Many species are now forbidden under CITES and other legislation and I would hate to hear of you turning up at Customs with your chosen timbers only to have the wood confiscated and maybe have a heavy fine imposed on you.





> Also, I didn't mean I want to bring wood here from India, I meant I want to build the instrument while I am at India. .


If I am not mistaken the same rules apply to wood whether you bring in boards or a finished mandolin. You don't want to make a mandolin that gets impounded. Check into it please.

----------

Jess L., 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> If I am not mistaken the same rules apply to wood whether you bring in boards or a finished mandolin. You don't want to make a mandolin that gets impounded. Check into it please.


OK, thanks for letting me know, I'll check if I am bringing forbidden species.

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## Jeff Mando

I had my tulip bulbs from Holland confiscated by US Customs.....

I wish the agent had at least sent me a picture of how they looked at his house... :Frown:

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Should I use a truss rod in my build? I can't find a consistent answer when I look, so any experiences would be appreciated. I don't want adjustability, I have a bad habit of constantly adjusting if I have the choice to. Do I need any reinforcement for the neck?

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Also, would pine be too weak for a neck? How about Oak?

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

How would the sound change if you shaped the sides _around_ the soundboard rather than under it?

----------


## Marc Berman

Nope. But I would think it would be harder to clamp.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Nope. But I would think it would be harder to clamp.


Which question are you answering?

----------


## Marc Berman

> Which question are you answering?


The one about forming the sides around the soundboard.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> The one about forming the sides around the soundboard.


What did you mean by nope?

----------


## Dale Ludewig

Hey Pranav,

I've been away from the computer a couple days. At least as far as the MC goes. I'm sorry to hear of your self-inflicted wound. I've done the same with a chisel. I thought that was stupid when I did it. And continue to do it occasionally. Don't stick your thumb into a jointer. I've never cut myself making dosas! Although you could do it making sambar, especially trying to cut up those "lady fingers" or whatever they're called. Good stuff though.

Although you didn't ask for my thoughts right now, I shall donate them for free. One major thing that separates you and your expected experience in mandolin building from the experience and expectations of those of us who basically taught ourselves how to do this is that when we started doing this: there was no internet. There was almost nothing in "print" on how to build musical instruments, especially guitars and mandolins. Virtually nothing. Videos and internet forums? Nothing. The technology to present such information wasn't even born yet. Think about that for a minute or two.

Now look around at the world we live in. Information on how to do almost anything is a few mouse clicks away. And from your energetic youthful view (I wish I had more of it), it is easy to kind of think that acquiring the actual understanding and skills to "make stuff" has progressed as rapidly as the ability to find or view descriptions of the same. That's not reality in spite of the enthusiasm of youth. I admire and encourage you. I had similar aspirations when I was your age. I remember when I was in high school (back in the 1960's), a classmate and I made a model of a cotton gin, from scratch. With drawings from some book, I suppose. It must have made an impression on my classmate also, because we talked about it last year at our 50th high school reunion, and I hadn't seen him since high school.

Please be patient with yourself and the physics of the world. And please be patient with those of us who have walked your path before. We aren't doing anything but trying to guide you. To keep you out of the ditch, so to speak.

----------

dang, 

hank, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Marty Jacobson

> How would the sound change if you shaped the sides _around_ the soundboard rather than under it?


That's how I do it. It's not "a bit harder to clamp"... it's fiendishly difficult to do. Clamping isn't the problem. Getting the joint perfect is the problem, all the way around the perimeter, with two separate pieces of wood which are not touching. 

Here's an article about how I do it.
http://martinjacobson.com/id/shop-an...tegral-binding

In woodworking, you want to have structural joints, and decorative joints. And if you need a structural joint, which is also a decorative (visible) joint, and which bends around in multiple axes... then it might take you a thousand hours or so to figure out how to do it. At least that's how much time it took for me to figure out how to do it.

No pine for necks. It's not strong enough, and it's too dynamic (unstable) with weather changes. Oak or maple are both good choices. Oak will be heavier, and maple will be easier to work with. I use a 1/4" carbon fiber reinforcement for the neck, but a 1/4" steel rod would be OK too, though sub-optimal in terms of mass.

----------

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Marc Berman

> What did you mean by nope?


You asked if the sound would change if you formed the sides around the soundboard.

----------

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> That's how I do it. It's not "a bit harder to clamp"... it's fiendishly difficult to do. Clamping isn't the problem. Getting the joint perfect is the problem, all the way around the perimeter, with two separate pieces of wood which are not touching. 
> 
> Here's an article about how I do it.
> http://martinjacobson.com/id/shop-an...tegral-binding
> 
> In woodworking, you want to have structural joints, and decorative joints. And if you need a structural joint, which is also a decorative (visible) joint, and which bends around in multiple axes... then it might take you a thousand hours or so to figure out how to do it. At least that's how much time it took for me to figure out how to do it.
> 
> No pine for necks. It's not strong enough, and it's too dynamic (unstable) with weather changes. Oak or maple are both good choices. Oak will be heavier, and maple will be easier to work with. I use a 1/4" carbon fiber reinforcement for the neck, but a 1/4" steel rod would be OK too, though sub-optimal in terms of mass.


I think that's really cool. It unfortunately defeats the purpose of my question though. I wanted to hand bend sides without a mold, like classical
guitar luthier do. I felt that it would be cool and easier, to form the sides around the front, glue together, attach the neck, and then glue on the back but put a little resting ridge for the back to sit on. How does that sound?

----------


## Marty Jacobson

> I think that's really cool. It unfortunately defeats the purpose of my question though. I wanted to hand bend sides without a mold, like classical
> guitar luthier do. I felt that it would be cool and easier, to form the sides around the front, glue together, attach the neck, and then glue on the back but put a little resting ridge for the back to sit on. How does that sound?


Classical guitar luthiers do use molds. For positioning during gluing, if nothing else. It might not be the whole shape, but something to "indicate" your parts to where they need to be is essential, even if your parts are perfect (which they never are).
The problem with using the top is that it's so thin, it won't do much to control the wonkiness of the rim (which is inevitable, until it's glued to something). Also, you need significant glue surface area to attach the sides to the rim. The thickness of the rim itself is not enough. Plus it will be a real beast of a time to get a completely hand-bent rim to perfectly match the perimeter of your top.

You could do something similar to what Nigel Forster does, in the Sobell style which is similar to a Classical guitar Spanish heel, in some ways. (I hope you don't mind me posting your picture, Nigel...)

----------

Jess L., 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## dang

> ...Information on how to do almost anything is a few mouse clicks away. And from your energetic youthful view (I wish I had more of it), it is easy to kind of think that acquiring the actual understanding and skills to "make stuff" has progressed as rapidly as the ability to find or view descriptions of the same. That's not reality in spite of the enthusiasm of youth. I admire and encourage you. I had similar aspirations....


I think this is true, and its not as easy as the professionals make it look in the videos!

Martys time lapse videos are an exaggerated example of this, he makes it look fast, simple, and easy - but the hours and hours spent on his art can be seen in the finished product.  (I dont have time to find one and post it right now or I would)

Good luck Pranav!

----------

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> I think this is true, and it’s not as easy as the professionals make it look in the videos!
> 
> Marty’s time lapse videos are an exaggerated example of this, he makes it look fast, simple, and easy - but the hours and hours spent on his art can be seen in the finished product.  (I don’t have time to find one and post it right now or I would)
> 
> Good luck Pranav!


Yep, the problem is that I won't know what it's like until I spend tons of time myself on this. Even words can't tell us how much work this is. I will just have to learn it the hard way... AKA the only way.

----------


## Tom Haywood

There is one thing you can count on. There will be mistakes made in thinking and doing, there will be pieces of wood that do something unexpected, there will be tools that turn out to not be the best ones for the task. The deeper experience is figuring out how to fix these "setbacks" and not let them derail your goal. When you see how common this is to the process, it's amazing that these things can be built in factories. The goal of building something that sounds and plays better than the Rogue is very do-able.

----------

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> There is one thing you can count on. There will be mistakes made in thinking and doing, there will be pieces of wood that do something unexpected, there will be tools that turn out to not be the best ones for the task. The deeper experience is figuring out how to fix these "setbacks" and not let them derail your goal. When you see how common this is to the process, it's amazing that these things can be built in factories. The goal of building something that sounds and plays better than the Rogue is very do-able.


I agree. Also, I just wanted to let you know, but Georgia is one of my favorite states. I am sure you're immersed in music where you live  :Smile: .

----------


## Timbofood

Like a guy said to me years ago...
“Fast, Cheap, or Right, pick any two. Fast and cheap won’t be right, cheap and right won’t be fast  and fast and right will be far from cheap!”
And especially on a first build, expect things to go sideways from time to time, set backs are more the rule than exception in a builders early products, this is how we all learn.
Making moulds is a good way to be able to find the shape which serves your purpose best. Freehand bending might sound like fun but, you’re talking about graduate level skills, take small steps early and the product will improve as more are built.  Going too fast will end in disaster and damaged hands. Have you taken some found material and made any boxes yet or, have you cast those suggestions to the wind? Just curious.

----------

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Like a guy said to me years ago...
> “Fast, Cheap, or Right, pick any two. Fast and cheap won’t be right, cheap and right won’t be fast  and fast and right will be far from cheap!”
> And especially on a first build, expect things to go sideways from time to time, set backs are more the rule than exception in a builders early products, this is how we all learn.
> Making moulds is a good way to be able to find the shape which serves your purpose best. Freehand bending might sound like fun but, you’re talking about graduate level skills, take small steps early and the product will improve as more are built.  Going too fast will end in disaster and damaged hands. Have you taken some found material and made any boxes yet or, have you cast those suggestions to the wind? Just curious.


Like I said, my left hand is unusable because where there is an artery right where I got my stitches, and it was on my joint, so I will have to wait a bit to get started again. I will not be casting the suggestions to the wind however, I clearly need practice.

----------


## pelone

I originally was supportive of the OP but...as John Paul Sartre said..."The only reality is action."  I was intrigued by the OP at first and was lured along by the naivety of the topic---it has grown tiresome and boring.  If, indeed, the OP does exist as a motivated builder of a mandolin, he needs to get off of his duff and start building (even though he now claims the inability to use both of his hands).  In my many years of teaching writing at the college level I was careful to reward students for actually producing a story...not fantasizing about the story.  A writer writes, a scammer/obfuscator talks about what they intend to do with no actual and real action.  Come on OP--get something done and stop all of the blather.

----------

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## artboy

Irving Sloane wrote built classical guitars and wrote books on his construction methods,  and he mostly used hand tools.

----------

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Irving Sloane wrote built classical guitars and wrote books on his construction methods,  and he mostly used hand tools.


Thank you, I found some of his stuff. I'll check it out.

----------


## Bill Snyder

Take a look at Brian Dean's website. http://www.labraid.ca/ The man builds with no power tools. He holds some very strong prejudices against the use of them. I think that (directly or indirectly) has a lot to do with the fact that he no longer posts on Mandolin Cafe.

----------

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Tom Haywood

I believe in using mostly hand tools to build these instruments. My first couple of mandolins I proudly claimed to have been made with only hand tools. But then I realized that it just wasn't true and isn't really possible. I purchased the wood. It is almost a certainty that the trees were felled and taken from the forest using power equipment, and the the logs were milled and dried using power equipment. I purchased the hardware. It is a certainty that the fret wire, tuners and tailpiece were made with power equipment. I use a battery powered drill to inlay the side dots. I suspect the MOP inlay material is processed with power equipment. I buy pre-slotted fret boards for standard scale lengths because the CNC operated equipment is more accurate and so the mandolin sounds better. Heck, I even use an electric lamp on the work bench to see what I'm doing, and a propane torch to bend the sides. So, there is really nothing on the mandolin that is made completely without power tools. I added a bench sander, a drill press and a band saw to my shop, and these vastly reduce the time and effort for a number of tasks. That leaves more time and energy available to focus on the things that benefit from hand work. Finally, I like to french polish the finish, but I remember a teacher asking if I thought those furniture makers in France in the 1600s would have used spray equipment if they had it. The lesson learned was that there are many, many aspects of mandolin building that result in well-earned pride of accomplishment regardless of what tools you use.

----------

Jim Garber, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Nick Gellie, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Take a look at Brian Dean's website. http://www.labraid.ca/ The man builds with no power tools. He holds some very strong prejudices against the use of them. I think that (directly or indirectly) has a lot to do with the fact that he no longer posts on Mandolin Cafe.


Why would he stop posting on MC because he doesn't like using power tools?

----------


## MikeEdgerton

I don't think that's the reason he stopped posting. Carry on.

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Sawed out my back, need to figure out a way to flatten it out. It's an inch thick right now. To help that, my vise broke too, so I can't even saw it thinner safely. I'll try to find access to a planer.

----------


## pelone

How about posting a photo?

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> How about posting a photo?

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

My parents gave me an idea... Buy a cutting board that's fairly thin. Cutting boards also tend to be quarter sawn hardwoods, so it would be perfect. Opinions?

----------


## Jeff Mando

My wife just picked up a couple new cutting boards made from bamboo.  They are laminated in one inch strips side by side by about 3/8 inch thick.  I'm not sure how it would sound, but it does look pretty.  Has anyone ever used bamboo for mandolins?

----------


## Marty Jacobson

Bamboo would make good back and sides, I think.

----------

Jeff Mando

----------


## HoGo

Yamaha did make guitar some series out of bamboo, though I'm not sure if it was just veneer... and it was on both top and back. Sounded OK, perhaps a bit harsh because of the top. With spruce it would sound more refined.

----------

Jeff Mando

----------


## HoGo

BTW, Pranav, did you receive the drawings, yet?

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> BTW, Pranav, did you receive the drawings, yet?


Unfortunately, not yet. I'll PM you when they come.

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## Jim Garber

*Yamaha Bamboo Guitar*

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

All this time, I've heard that laminate instruments sound worse, but why is it bookmatching doesn't affect sound? Is it because side by side is OK, vs. layered on top? That would make sense to me considering the movement of sound waves. On a layered soundboard, the waves would have to penetrate multiple layers of wood along with glue, while side by side, it's just penetrating one solid layer of wood, but in multiple places. ???

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## Dale Ludewig

Sounding worse or better is completely subjective. But it does seem that most humans prefer the sound wood transfers to the air we hear as opposed to most glues and synthetics. On a bookmatched top and back, the ratio of glue to wood is of no consequence. The acoustics are the same. When you start laminating veneers together in layers with glue in between, you're veering away from wood into some composite which doesn't usually have the "warmth" of wood. I think a better way to think of the process of the top/back/system of a musical instrument- the sound waves aren't "penetrating" anything. They're exciting/ vibrating other things which in turn vibrate. What you hear from the instrument is the air being moved by this vibrating system. It's not like there's a lot of little sound elves bouncing around off of the walls. It's a system.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Sounding worse or better is completely subjective. But it does seem that most humans prefer the sound wood transfers to the air we hear as opposed to most glues and synthetics. On a bookmatched top and back, the ratio of glue to wood is of no consequence. The acoustics are the same. When you start laminating veneers together in layers with glue in between, you're veering away from wood into some composite which doesn't usually have the "warmth" of wood. I think a better way to think of the process of the top/back/system of a musical instrument- the sound waves aren't "penetrating" anything. They're exciting/ vibrating other things which in turn vibrate. What you hear from the instrument is the air being moved by this vibrating system. It's not like there's a lot of little sound elves bouncing around off of the walls. It's a system.


When I say penetrate, I mean the ability for it to transfer vibrations throughout the insides. That makes more sense, though. Thanks for clearing it up.

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## Dale Ludewig

Just a different use of terms. "The ability to transfer vibrations"- that's excellent. And it's important to understand it that way.
How's your hand?

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Just a different use of terms. "The ability to transfer vibrations"- that's excellent. And it's important to understand it that way.
> How's your hand?


Much better, completely usable now. Thanks for asking. Next step is to make a plane.

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## pops1

I have had guitars, one a 1930, with a laminated back and sides, solid spruce top. It was a great sounding instrument. It would be interesting to make two instruments with the same top and solid and laminated sides and back. Possibly use the same top for a comparison in sound.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

I like the idea of the bamboo. I know bamboo is a grass, but acoustically, would it work like a hardwood or a softwood?

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## Jim Garber

*Roger Borys*, working with James D'Aquisto, developed a method of using laminated wood for jazz guitars. They are all electric but sound very good acoustically as well. I have played one and it was very nice and reasonably priced for a handmade archtop.

There is lamination and lamination.

I can't recall the maker but there is a high-end classical guitar maker who uses a specifically designed laminated top with some sort honey-comb construction.

Ah, I found it. It is called *Nomex* and is used by *Hill Guitar Company* and probably a bunch of others.

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## HoGo

Laminate back can be quite good. I've heard more than enough laminated back guitars that were better than all soild wood even from the same factory...
But for tops laminate changes game completely. Laminate top means there are two VERY thin spruce veneers on the outside and one thick veneer of cheaper wood (often poplar or basswood mahogany or some kind of common cheap veneer woods) oriented *across*. So the stiffness of the result is very different from solid wood (most noticable on soft woods, less os on hardwoods where crossgrain stiffness is higher and the lighter/softer wood center lamination will not affect it as much).
If you glue two pieces of wood edge to edge it will act just like one larger piece of wood as the stifnesses in all three directions are unchanged. That's the difference between solid wood and plywood, only typical plywood ofen has more layers...
There are guitar makers who laminate backs and ribs out of two or more layers of wood oriented *the same way*. IMO, if in this case your joint is perfectly tight and no thick layer of glue is left inside (and assuming there is not much glue soaked into the wood), the result will again be very similar if not same as solid piece of wood.
On electric archtop jazz/blues guitars laminate top can be usefull as it is not as responsive to vibrations and helps reduce feedback of pickups.
One more note, I'm not sure about this but I read somewhere that the original Selmer - Maccaferi gypsy guitars were made with laminated back and sides... no one complained about their sound...

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hank, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## John Kelly

That is a really good summary, Adrian.  Thanks for posting .

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## Marty Jacobson

One other thing about using laminations. It takes much more setup and equipment than using solid woods (10 times as much work to get set up). Not something you're going to do on a shoestring budget, it's more of a long-term production process.

Hey Ajay, have you considered making a cigar box mandolin? All you have to make is the neck (which admittedly is probably the hardest single part to make of any instrument), and I guarantee you there will be important things to learn as you go. It will eliminate a lot of the initial problems, and will let you get your feet wet so you can start enjoying an instrument you've built with much less time invested so you don't get frustrated building it all from scratch.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> One other thing about using laminations. It takes much more setup and equipment than using solid woods (10 times as much work to get set up). Not something you're going to do on a shoestring budget, it's more of a long-term production process.
> 
> Hey Ajay, have you considered making a cigar box mandolin? All you have to make is the neck (which admittedly is probably the hardest single part to make of any instrument), and I guarantee you there will be important things to learn as you go. It will eliminate a lot of the initial problems, and will let you get your feet wet so you can start enjoying an instrument you've built with much less time invested so you don't get frustrated building it all from scratch.


I have thought about it, but it just doesn't feel like enough. I am happy to deal with frustrations, when it is something I care about. I have no problem dealing with them. Like I said before, I don't care if this takes 3 years, I just need to do it.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Got the plans, Adrian! Thank you so much! I'll definitely use these for my next build.

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## Jim Garber

Check out this guy making guitars from pallets. DEPALET- artisanal reclaimed wood guitars

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John Kelly, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

I am slowly but surely flattening out the piece of poplar. It might go to waste if I do the cutting board idea, but there's no such thing as too much practice, right?

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

I'll try to post a picture if I remember to, but heads up, it looks absolutely atrocious at this point. It is hard to flatten wood from 1.75 inches to .15" with a hammer and some chisels. But I am definitely enjoying the ride.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Hey everybody, I am a little curious about what would happen if I made a small body mandolin (kinda like a piccolo mandolin), but wound mandocello strings on it. Would it sound good? Is it even reasonable?

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

I am in Physics 101 right now and we're learning about the physics of waves, and part of the unit is sound waves, and I think I can gauge the velocity and frequencies of waves well, so that might come in handy as well.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Also, I am done with my search for wood at this point, but I was a bit surprised when I went to Lowes, and I repeatedly tapped on different pieces of poplar and pine. And the poplar ringed like a bell, while the pine made a bit of a tone, but nothing near what the poplar achieved. Definitely a bit interesting...

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## Walt

> Hey everybody, I am a little curious about what would happen if I made a small body mandolin (kinda like a piccolo mandolin), but wound mandocello strings on it. Would it sound good? Is it even reasonable?


Not sure this would work. What would the tuning be? This would be sort of like putting a set of cello strings on your violin. You couldn't tune it as a cello because the scale length is too short. You couldn't tune it as a violin because the string gauges are too large. I guess you could bring the strings to tension, see where they land, and construct a tuning around that. But I would guess that big 'cello strings on a tiny piccolo body would sound super, super, super thin.

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## pelone

Here in ranch country, when we encounter someone who is all talk and no action we say..."He is all hat and no cattle." The poster, in my humble opinion..is being rewarded for speculation with no action.  It also reminds me of the "jam" rule of.."get up, sing, sit down."

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## Timbofood

Pelone, in Michigan it’s
 “Big hat, no cattle” but the intent is the same.
Almost 300 posts and the fishing expedition continues.

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Pelone, in Michigan it’s
>  “Big hat, no cattle” but the intent is the same.
> Almost 300 posts and the fishing expedition continues.





> Here in ranch country, when we encounter someone who is all talk and no action we say..."He is all hat and no cattle." The poster, in my humble opinion..is being rewarded for speculation with no action.  It also reminds me of the "jam" rule of.."get up, sing, sit down."


I am working on my mandolin. I am literally chiseling away at a thick piece of wood for hours each weekend while my parents tell me to stop. I don't understand why you all are repeatedly saying I am not doing anything. If you don't think my questions are worthwhile, don't answer, just let other people who are willing to respond answer.

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## Matt Harris

Using chisels and a hammer to thickness wood is an enormous waste of time. Five bucks worth of tools at harbor freight would save you hours of time and loads of frustration. Honestly, you should know that at this point.

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Timbofood

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Using chisels and a hammer to thickness wood is an enormous waste of time. Five bucks worth of tools at harbor freight would save you hours of time and loads of frustration. Honestly, you should know that at this point.


Using a plane, or what? I feel like a plane would still take a long time.

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## Timbofood

Look, its 300 posts in and youve shared no progress just spilled blood and chat. Nothing wrong with that but, have you actually done anything other than beating on a piece of poplar with caveman tools after well meaning folks have offered insight as to taking steps to learn the woodworking skills which need to be developed?
Taking a hammer and chisel to a piece of wood is all well and good but, have you learned to make anything? If you are trying to level and smooth a piece of poplar needs a plane not a chisel, the right tool for the job will help with blood loss and quality workmanship.
How much more encouragement do you need to start showing your progress?  Have you made a box? Have you practiced any forms of joinery? Even sanding something level is a start.

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j. condino

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## Jim Garber

> I'll try to post a picture if I remember to, but heads up, it looks absolutely atrocious at this point. It is hard to flatten wood from 1.75 inches to .15" with a hammer and some chisels. But I am definitely enjoying the ride.


Perhaps the best course of action, Pranav, is to work on whatever you are doing and come back here with questions that show that you are following some sensible path. As you may have noticed, many of the knowledgeable people here are not posting any more and you may lose the other ones who are still here. 




> Hey everybody, I am a little curious about what would happen if I made a small body mandolin (kinda like a piccolo mandolin), but wound mandocello strings on it. Would it sound good? Is it even reasonable?





> I am in Physics 101 right now and we're learning about the physics of waves, and part of the unit is sound waves, and I think I can gauge the velocity and frequencies of waves well, so that might come in handy as well.


Why would you put mandocello strings on a piccolo body? Ask your Physics teacher what he or she thinks. Have yiu ever looked at mandocello strings? The lowest ones are considerably thicker than guitar strings. 

So far every time we tell you to stick to the mainstream methods and standards you want to veer off into outer limits. Very strange. Build a mandolin of mandolin size and put mandolin strings on it.

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hank

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## pelone

PVW----perhaps accessing Youtube and typing in "How to build a mandolin" would give you a huge assortment of videos that would point you in the right direction and would motivate you to take action and enable you to quit dithering.  I am starting to think that the time you have spent posting nonsense in previous posts is nothing more than "cat fishing".....you seem to be garnering a lot of attention but have little to show as far as producing a mandolin.  It reminds me of a girl I knew in high school who wanted to be asked to be in the play so she could say "no."  I am 100% supportive of you if you actually get on the stick and start building.  If it was easy---everyone could do it.

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## Bill McCall

Why don’t you share your plan?  I would think you would have a list of the tasks and have the steps arranged in order before you started beating on some wood.  Did you make a full sized layout so you could make the parts to match?  If you don’t have a plan you’re just wasting everyone’s time

Hopefully you won’t get hurt, again.

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## Eric C.

I was thinking this was a really long set up for April Fool's Day, but here it is the 3rd...

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## Steve Sorensen

Here's how you do it -- 




Steve

----------

Boharm, 

Drew Streip, 

hank, 

j. condino, 

pops1, 

Pranav Ajay Warrier, 

Walt, 

WoMando

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## Jeff Mando

Wow!  Amazing video, Steve, thanks for posting!  Who says you need a fancy vise or clamps?  This guy never heard of StewMac!  Reminds me of the old expression, "making a way out of no way!"

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## pops1

That guy has had a lot of practice to do what he does with what he has. Simply amazing.

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## JeffD

> That guy has had a lot of practice to do what he does with what he has. Simply amazing.


Yes, as evidenced by many subtle things, including that he has all his fingers.

----------

John Kelly, 

WoMando

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## Tom Haywood

Great video! Just about convinced me to quit machine sanding the top and back overhang and start using a machete.

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## HoGo

> Great video! Just about convinced me to quit machine sanding the top and back overhang and start using a machete.


I've used my trusty medium sized bowie knife quite often for initial neck shaping and even trimming back overhang when the maple was not too cooperative... Works pretty well but can do quite a damage if you miss the target. These days I try to cut with saw as close as possible to the "line" so no tools of mass destruction are needed.

----------

John Lloyd, 

Timbofood, 

Tom Haywood, 

WoMando

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## Pranav Ajay Warrier

> Here's how you do it -- 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve


Just rewatched that, and I think my computer skipped part of the video, because that was just amazing. I can't believe he shapes it like clay!

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## Timbofood

Ten days and not a peep!? Have we all been taken in by Pranav?
Or has this thread been a figment of our collective imagination?

----------

j. condino

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## John Kelly

Timothy, I fear you may be reopening Pandora's box.  I only hope there have been no more trips to the casualty department (or ER, as you folks across the Atlantic call it, I believe.

----------


## Timbofood

You know John, I thought that as soon as I posted the note!
I’d prefer to think the guy is trying to make a box or glue two pieces of something together!

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## Nick Gellie

> +1 for Narex chisels. They are excellent, pro-quality tools which will last a lifetime. And they cost under $10 apiece. Not bad for something you could hand down to your grandkids in perfect working order.
> https://www.amazon.com/Narex-Republi.../dp/B00GPC74ZQ
> 
> Also check this out: http://www.dunwellguitar.com/FingerPlanes/MyDesign.htm
> You can make blades out of an old file in a pinch.


++1 for Narex chisels.  I have a set of six Narex chisels.  They work really well.

----------

hank

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## printer2

OK, I am new here and don't want to annoy people right out of the gate, just looking through the Build and Repair section for build threads. I thought I would read this one as I did something similar but on the guitar side of life. I did read the first ten pages but then decided to see where things are currently and decided to skip some of the middle. No offense to any that stuck it out (and I commend you) but I don't have the patience. 

That all said and done I do have some woodworking experience and did a hack build with hand tools and questionable materials. While a short scale nylon guitar does not have the stress of a mandolin I managed to make a playable instrument out of a 2"x4", a fence board and a bit of maple for the fretboard and the bridge. While I would not really recommend anyone using the same wood (although the 2x4 was a good piece of wood) there may be a few ideas that Pranav might be able to use. 

https://forum.canadianwoodworking.co...yone-can-build

----------

bigbendhiker, 

dhergert, 

Inklings, 

Jess L., 

John Kelly, 

WoMando

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## Inklings

Printer2, That's a pretty neat job you did there - and really helpful.  

Although I really wish you guys would stop removing all my good excuses for not building...

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## Jim Garber

> While I would not really recommend anyone using the same wood (although the 2x4 was a good piece of wood) there may be a few ideas that Pranav might be able to use.


I don't know if Pranav is still reading this thread, but there are two things not visible in your thread on the shoestring guitar and thatm of course, is your patience and woodworking experience. A rank amateur needs to gain those attributes to do what you did, whether it was with low cost wood or AAAA quality.

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## pops1

Very ingenious ways to build, you also have something Pranav doesn't have, tools. I especially liked the way you cut the sound hole and flattened the saddle slot. Being able to improvise tools to do what you need is a valuable gift to have.

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## MikeEdgerton

The bigger point here is that someone is actually building. It's easy to talk about it, harder to execute the build. Nice work printer2.

----------

j. condino, 

Timbofood

----------


## printer2

> I don't know if Pranav is still reading this thread, but there are two things not visible in your thread on the shoestring guitar and thatm of course, is your patience and woodworking experience. A rank amateur needs to gain those attributes to do what you did, whether it was with low cost wood or AAAA quality.


And that is the nice thing of forums like this one, a wealth of experience available. Yes there is knowing how much to give and take with the tools and wood, you are only going to get that by working with your hands. But throughout the thread I read a lot of good suggestions that might have seen the OP a ways farther along.

It is one thing to know you built something with your bare hands but your first time out you probably will not get a visually great instrument or quite the sound you want. But then again I have seen people's instruments that look fantastic first time out. I am handy and my first guitar was pretty good but had its flaws, darn you wood bindings. 

Now if I were to go the limited tool route in building a mandolin I would spring for a hand drill at least. Using a bit and a depth stop should make carving out the top and back much easier than hammering away at a piece of wood. Going to have to drill holes for the tuners anyway. Otherwise I think I could build a mandolin with no more than I used in my budget guitar build. One thing I do like to tell people wanting to build a guitar is to build a ukulele first. Not as big a project and if it has a few things that could be done better your next build will probably see those corrected. A mandolin seems like it might have a little less latitude for error if you want a reasonable instrument. 

I do want to build one myself but the reason I am here is I saw a Rogue for sale yesterday and picked it up. I have too many guitars I need to finish than to start a new project, the few bucks I paid for the Rogue was worth it even though I can tell it is not as rich a sounding instrument as can be. My first dip in the mandolin pond, I'll build one at some point in time.

----------

dhergert, 

WoMando

----------


## Pranav Ajay Warrier

Hey everybody, it's been a while. I kind of put a hold on this project and I don't plan to get back to it until I have the stuff I need to do a good job. In the meantime, I will continue watching videos, reading, and looking at the forums. Thanks for the help though. I can't wait to get back on this project.

----------

