# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  The Loar LM-310F

## PsychoMedic

Saw this as a new offering from Guitar Center.  It's a hand-carved F-style Loar for $299.  Has anyone had any experience with these?  I can't find a review anywhere on this model.

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## Chris Daniels

> Saw this as a new offering from Guitar Center.  It's a hand-carved F-style Loar for $299.  Has anyone had any experience with these?  I can't find a review anywhere on this model.


Looks new enough of a model that very few will have had experience yet. Myself included, although I have owned a The Loar LM-500.

Checking the specs, it has laminate back and sides but a solid hand-carved (hmmm) top. Cheaper rosewood used for fretboard and bridge but it does have a bone nut. For $299 that's going hard at the low-end market where everything under $500 has a pressed solid top if you're lucky. An interesting business decision to say the least.

The Loar is a decent brand so if $300 is all ya got (plus $50 to $100 for the required setup if you can't do it yourself) and a new f-style mandolin is a non-negotiable requirement then it's great deal. Looking for a real instrument worth the entry fee? Better options are available.

C.

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ccravens, 

Folkmusician.com

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## Folkmusician.com

I haven't seen these yet (brand new model), but it should be pretty close to the LM-370/375, which you should be able to find some reviews on.

My take on the Grassroots series. 

Pros:
Nice straight necks. Good base fret work (they need leveling dressing, but they have a good starting point for this).
Great set of Grover tuners.
Lifetime warranty

Cons:
Laminated back and sides. Doesn't sound as good as the all solid models.


I have been happier with the Grassroots mandolins than many of the all solid instruments at the same price points and I am sure that will hold true for the 310 as well. I highly doubt that you will find a better $300 F-style.

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## Br1ck

You'd do better buying from one of our sponsors, IMHO. You'd get a nice setup done competently. Bottom dollar pricing not always the best value.

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## MikeZito

I bought one of these about a week ago.  I know someone who works at one of the major retailers who got me the mandolin at cost - a whopping $210.00, including tax and a RoadRunner gig bag.  

   Needless to say, to get an f-style Loar for that kind of money, you really can't go wrong.

   - Hand-carved solid spruce top. 
   - Maple back, sides and neck.
   - Rosewood fingerboard. 

   The sound is good, and reasonably loud (still 'breaking it in').  At first I found action a little stiff for my personal taste, but I made some fairly-quick bridge adjustments, and now I have no real complaints.   

   For several years I played a Rigel R-100, and a 1920's Martin Style 20.  Naturally, this mandolin doesn't hold a candle to those two classics - but for a guy who has been out of the loop for about 10 years, it works very well as a re-starter instrument.

    All-in-all, I would recommend at least giving one a try . . . even as just a knock-around instrument that you wouldn't mind throwing in the back seat of the car for an impromptu jam, practice or minor gig that you really don't want to bring the 'nice' mandolin to.

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## Loubrava

I've been looking for a decent (cheap) F I could put in mic/pu system in this may be it !
I had a Loar 600 that sounded great so I like the brand I will check these out at that price point I think most local music
stores will carry them.

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## rfd

any more scoop on this mando?

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## Br1ck

Is this a GC exclusive like the Martins they have made? Stripped of adornment, but functionally good?

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## Folkmusician.com

It will be a standard model (I have them on order). I imagine the first batch was presold before it hit the warehouse.

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## rfd

got one.  it's quite good in all aspects from build to tone.  it's NOT a $1k+ mando, but easily good enuf as knock-about for jams or practice.  worth the $260/shipped i paid for it.  :Smile:

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## rfd

now on sale at guitar center for $250/shipped!  yikes!  a steal!  :Cool:

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## Manjovi

I just got one last week at Guitar Center. I'm not a big fan of GC's acoustic selection, but I have been wanting a decent inexpensive mandolin to take on road trips and family vacations. Since I saw that GC had this one on sale I figured I would give it a try. I have played The Loar's higher tier models and have found them quite enjoyable to play with very nice tone. This one has those same qualities. The tuners seem to be far more than adequate and have already stayed in tune, or very close, in damp, cold, and warm situations (rainy camping and cold with a sunny day thrown in for good measure). In fact, it stays in tune better than some of my more expensive guitars. 
This seems to be the perfect instrument to be a sidekick. It is far better than any other mandolin in this price range I have tried. It was far superior to the Gretsch New Yorker I tried out that day, as well. I may lower the action just a bit by lowering the ebony bridge, but other than that it was perfect right off the wall hanger. If you go to GC get the $35 Roadrunner gig bag, too. Well worth the money.

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## Hudmister

> This seems to be the perfect instrument to be a sidekick. It is far better than any other mandolin in this price range I have tried. It was far superior to the Gretsch New Yorker I tried out that day, as well. I may lower the action just a bit by lowering the ebony bridge.


According to Chris Daniels at post No. 2 the spec for the bridge is rosewood.  Is yours actually ebony?  That would be a real plus.

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## Manjovi

Yes, I do believe it really is ebony. It is listed in the specs on The Loar website for this model and several others, as well. On the instruments they use the rosewood bridges it is listed as such. 

http://www.theloar.com/products/mand...-creek-lm-310f

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## Chris Daniels

> According to Chris Daniels at post No. 2 the spec for the bridge is rosewood.  Is yours actually ebony?  That would be a real plus.





> Yes, I do believe it really is ebony. It is listed in the specs on The Loar website for this model and several others, as well. On the instruments they use the rosewood bridges it is listed as such. 
> 
> http://www.theloar.com/products/mand...-creek-lm-310f


Hmmm...perhaps my eyes were crossed that day but it actually looks like I caught the GC listing with temporarily incorrect copy. A quick search finds a couple of smaller instrument vendor websites that still list LM-310F specs that match my recollection of the description. The finish is wrong too.

_Solid Hand-Carved, Fully Graduated Spruce Top
Maple Back and Sides
Maple Neck with Thin V Profile
Rosewood Fretboard
Scale Length: 13-29/32”
Nut Width: 1-1/8”
Bone Nut
Compensated Adjustable Rosewood Bridge
Grover Tuning Machines
The Loar Gold Decal
Ivory Body Binding
D’Addario Strings
Vintage Sunburst Matte Finish_

One funny thing is every single vendor site lists the fretboard as rosewood but The Loar site has it as 'Revebond'. Think maybe TML prefers the rosewood description...

Either way, an ebony bridge is certainly preferable as long as it's in decent shape. I had to replace the one on my old LM-500 with a CA.

C.

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Hudmister

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## rfd

'revebond' for the fretboard, whatever laminated stuff that is, don't much matter.  it's a knock-about instrument.  as to the bridge, the loar site sez ebony ... whatever.  the lm-310f is what it is, and is what it ain't.

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Hudmister, 

John Van Zandt

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## Eric Platt

Saw one Sunday at GC. Sounded fine for what it is, and I like the look. If I hadn't just purchased my 220, might have grabbed it.

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## Chris Daniels

Looks like they have one in-house at my local GC. Might have to make a stop to check it out for a report to the Cafe.

C.

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## rfd

as with most solid top stringed instros, it took about 5 hours of total playing time for the lm-310f to open up its top and get my ears in tuned to its nuances.  in comparison to the lm-590ms that has many days of playing, the lm-310f lacks that 'resonant depth' that all-solid wood mando can usually exhibit over playing time.  

i bought the lm-310f on a lark due to the lowered price of $260/shipped - which didn't last more than a few weeks when GC dropped it to $250/shipped.  regardless of what one thinks of the wood (or faux wood) used in its construction, i still think it's the best buy for a beginner - it has good tuners, and a good tweakable truss rod.  as with lots of fretted instruments, mine need an obligatory fret level and crown, which now allows a low action for easy and faster fingering mid-board and beyond, and the bridge position set for the best intonation compromise.  i'll probably electrify it with my fave k&k transducers.

the lm-310f gets two thumbs up from me as perfect newbie mando, or knock-about for the "pro".  :Mandosmiley:

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## Billkwando

I got one of these recently too. I posted elsewhere about it, but figured since it has its own thread, I'd post here as well...since anyone who googles it will find this thread first.



I'm really a guitarist, so I didn't need anything super expensive. Just wanted something to mess around with (I know a couple REM songs and Battle of Evermore, lol) as well as something to record with (so I have an extra texture in the musical toolbox).

I've had it for a few weeks, I really love it. I bought the display model at Guitar Center, and I'm not sure if they set those up special (since it's meant to sell it) or not, but mine plays super well, with a nice low action. Yesterday, I checked every fret for buzzes (even the silly high ones!) and there were none. I don't see any reason to mess with the frets. None are sharp on the sides or anything.

It's super loud....my wife could hear me playing in the basement, and she was on the 3rd floor. I installed JJB pickups in it, which she thought was hilarious, because it's so loud. When I explained to her that it was so I could record direct, suddenly it all made sense to her.  :Laughing: 

I did notice a slight (slight!) gap under the edge of the foot of the bridge on the treble side, and I'll probably fix that at some point using the frets.com tutorial, but I wouldn't have even known that was a thing until I read it here, so it shouldn't concern any beginner too much (and it may have only been this particular instrument). It doesn't make it sound any less awesome.

For what you pay for it, I consider it to be an incredible value (I think it may even be on sale right now for $250....I paid $300).

I've already made a few YouTube videos with it, the first being sort of "first impressions" review (I'll post another once I've played it for a bit longer) so here it is for anyone who is interested:






I also recorded a sound sample of it with the pickups I installed, which you can find at 10:30 in this video:





I also ordered an Empire viola shoulder rest to use as a Tone-Gard substitute (Hey, it's a $300 mandolin! LOL) and that should be delivered today, so we'll see how much better/louder it sounds without my body dampening the back of the mandolin.

If anybody has any questions or wants to know any specific info about it, let me know and I'll be happy to help!

Thanks,

Bill

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## MikeZito

As a follow-up to my post #5 above - over the past 3 months I have continued to play this mandolin, daily; (okay, so I play _all_ of my mandolins daily - but, that's another story.)  

The volume has opened up very nicely. The neck on mine is nicely sized and very comfortable to play; (I did try a another 310 the other day, and the neck was a little 'chunkier'). The action is still a bit stiff in some spots, but nothing that a hacker like me can't work around, or couldn't be fixed with a professional set-up. While the mandolin hardly has the 'deep woody' tone of a fine Gibson, the tone is still very respectable for a $200 mandolin - and (in my opinion) MUCH better sounding than my Eastman 415, which was 4-times the cost.

And, did I mention that it's a good-looking instrument, too?

I heartily recommend giving one a try - especially, (as other have also mentioned above) if you need a good knock-around instrument for playing in places where you wouldn't normally dare to bring your $3000 mandolin.

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## Billkwando

> As a follow-up to my post #5 above - over the past 3 months I have continued to play this mandolin, daily; (okay, so I play _all_ of my mandolins daily - but, that's another story.)  
> 
> The volume has opened up very nicely. The neck on mine is nicely sized and very comfortable to play; (I did try a another 310 the other day, and the neck was a little 'chunkier'). The action is still a bit stiff in some spots, but nothing that a hacker like me can't work around, or couldn't be fixed with a professional set-up. While the mandolin hardly has the 'deep woody' tone of a fine Gibson, the tone is still very respectable for a $200 mandolin - and (in my opinion) MUCH better sounding than my Eastman 415, which was 4-times the cost.
> 
> And, did I mention that it's a good-looking instrument, too?
> 
> I heartily recommend giving one a try - especially, (as other have also mentioned above) if you need a good knock-around instrument for playing in places where you wouldn't normally dare to bring your $3000 mandolin.


Mine doesn't seem chunky. I don't know what constitutes a true V neck, but mine definitely has some V to it. Maybe it's a cross between a C and a V.  :Wink:   Same for you?

Also, what do you mean when you say "stiff action"? High strings, or something else? Asking so I can check on mine.

Oh and I heard my viola shoulder rest was delivered today, so unless it's a total disaster, expect more info and a YouTube video about it before too long.  :Smile:

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## MikeZito

> Mine doesn't seem chunky. I don't know what constitutes a true V neck, but mine definitely has some V to it. Maybe it's a cross between a C and a V.   Same for you?
> 
> Also, what do you mean when you say "stiff action"? High strings, or something else? Asking so I can check on mine.


Hey Bill:

   Yes, you are right, the neck looks like it is something between a 'V' and a 'C' . . .  maybe a slightly elliptical 'C'?  (A little meatier than my Washburn, and less chunky than my Eastman). I am not an authority on instrument construction, so all I can say is that it is very comfortable to play. 

  The action on my 310 is pretty good all the way up and down the neck, except for the 'D' and 'G' strings - somewhere around the 7th fret, the action seems to be slightly higher than anywhere else . . . and the same is true of the 'A' and 'D' strings, at about the 8th and 9th frets.   I am not sure that anybody else would notice the difference too much, but because I have a light touch, it seems more pronounced to me - but like I said above, it's nothing that a hacker like me can't work around.  All-in-all, for $200, I am not going to complain!

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Billkwando

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## rfd

as with almost all pac rim mandos, the lm-310f could use a full L&C for it to really increase low string action playability.  the bone nut relief on the one i had (and just sold) was also a tad too high, and i recut the slots which in turn lowered the action even more.  it will need the bridge feet to be top contoured as well.  the grover worm under tuners are excellent.  this is the absolute best value "f" style mando, bar none.  

the most important thing about this mando is the solid wood top, which over time and a buncha playing (and/or vibrating the top with a radio in a closet), will augment the tone to the point that in blind sonic taste test comparison with most pac rim solid wood mandos one might be hard pressed to tell the tonal nuance differences.    

"carved top" just means the wood's been relief arched instead of steam press bent.  there is a world of difference between most offshore "carved tops" and onshore real tap tuned carved tops (done in violin style build), and add in a few thousand dollars, at least, for that custom built tap tuned mando.

i'll add - i don't consider laminated wood back and sides as a detriment to overall tone.  in fact, i find lam wood desirable for a traveling, under hot lights stage, outdoor in the sun stage, and/or knockabout instrument as solid wood will be less stable and more prone to reacting to the environment - the lam wood is actually an asset.  the amount of "tone/sound" one hears from a mando or guitar's back and sides is minimal if at all.  it's the vibrating top that holds the real signature tone, the rest is there to hold it all together.

but heck, i just used MF backstage dollars to order another one for .... $161/shipped.  it'll make a great knock-about instrument.  :Cool:

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John Van Zandt

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## Br1ck

How does the sound compare to a KM150, which would be a reasonable next tier up instrument? I found out with my MK just how nice a cheaper mandolin can be after a fret leveling.

I must admit to liking a scroll. LOL.

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## rfd

> How does the sound compare to a KM150, which would be a reasonable next tier up instrument? I found out with my MK just how nice a cheaper mandolin can be after a fret leveling.
> 
> I must admit to liking a scroll. LOL.


the lm-310f, as like most pac rim 'f' models, had less output and was less resonant than the pair of km-150a's that were in my shop at the time.  i don't take this at all as a bad, or unwanted thing.  i would still prefer that 'f' over that 'a' - personal subjectivity once again in control, as expected.  in that one lm-310f i had, it was easy to setup for excellent playability and with good strings the tone was quite pleasing and even across the board, and could only get better over time.

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## Billkwando

> the amount of "tone/sound" one hears from a mando or guitar's back and sides is minimal if at all.


Does that mean everyone can throw out their Tone-Gards? $75 seems like a lot to pay or something, if the item's effect on the tone/sound is minimal if at all.  :Laughing:

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## rfd

well, maybe.  there are a number of dependencies to consider.  lotta really good players hug their fully carved mandos and don't feel the need for a tone-guard thingy.  they can hold it out a bit and at an angle, and better hear what's being projected forward.  try doing that, then hug it and let the sound waves bounce off a solid wall a foot away and compare the tone and resonance.  for me, it's the top that does the real talking.  that's the voice, the vocal cords, while the back and sides are chiefly their for support.  do the back and sides sing?  how much does the back really contribute to the overall tone?  is it more of a sound reflector where shape is as, if not more, important than the material?  i don't see many string instruments with tone bars on the backs.  but again, many dependencies happening there, as well as defining that subjective "tone" word.  but hey, bill, ain't all this stuff fun?

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## Chris Daniels

> Does that mean everyone can throw out their Tone-Gards? $75 seems like a lot to pay or something, if the item's effect on the tone/sound is minimal if at all.


I've used a my Tone-Gard on both laminate and solid carved-backed mandolins and it's made a huge positive volume improvement for each so I will have to dispute the original claim that the back doesn't have an effect, even with nothing more than personal experience. However, a very many Cafe forum threads, including one very recently, also show that most of those who swear by one think the effect is far from merely 'minimal' regardless the instrument on which it is used.

C.

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## MikeZito

Granted, I play cheap mandolins, and I am not a good player . . .  but I actually prefer the sound of my mandolins when I hold them close, as opposed to moving them away from my body, like a tone guard would do.    

Go figure . . . .

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rfd

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## rfd

precisely, mike.  there is no right or wrong.  pay attention only to what appears best for us, and ignore opinions.  that may change, too.  it's all good.

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## Billkwando

I'm still working on the "viola shoulder rest as tone-gard" concept, but I don't think I'm gonna use it very much (maybe just for recording?). Honestly, my 310 is too flippin' loud!  :Laughing: 

It's fine for playing by itself, but I sat down to try and play along with a couple 10,000 Maniacs mandolin songs (Back O' the Moon & Everyone a Puzzle Lover) and I had to turn the CD volume up so ridiculously high to be able to hear it over _"The Loud"_ 310 (and that's with the back up against my body) that I started to think, "Do I really want to make this thing EVEN LOUDER?"  :Smile: 

Keep in mind, I'm playing with a regular medium (bendy) guitar pick. I can't imagine how much louder it would be with one of those super thick $50 "magical mandolin picks" people seem to use.

Plus, as I suggested in a previous thread, I'm sure someone here would say that it's not doing the tone any favors to give the (ostensibly?) laminated back of the 310 a louder voice.

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## rfd

in order to "make good music", the sum total of all mandolin (and most other instruments as well) required gear = 10% at best, whereas the person doing the deed, which includes their brain and fingers = 99.9%, regardless of the gear used.  IOW, playing trumps all the chatter about gear.  period.   :Cool:

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## Billkwando

> in order to "make good music", the sum total of all mandolin (and most other instruments as well) required gear = 10% at best, whereas the person doing the deed, which includes their brain and fingers = 99.9%, regardless of the gear used.  IOW, playing trumps all the chatter about gear.  period.


I've often thought that Chris Thile could use an off the rack mandolin, or even a The Loar, and the average listener (or maybe even most listeners) wouldn't be able to tell that it isn't his skazillion dollar Gibson. 

As guitarists often like to say, "tone is in the fingers".

Still, getting back to the topic at hand, I'm impressed by how insanely loud this LM-310 is. 

I still haven't fixed the tiny gap under the bridge foot yet, and I'm wondering if it will actually make any perceptible difference to the sound. 

I forget....what's that supposed to do/fix again? Does it provide more sustain? Volume? Mojo?

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## MikeZito

> I still haven't fixed the tiny gap under the bridge foot yet, and I'm wondering if it will actually make any perceptible difference to the sound. 
> 
> I forget....what's that supposed to do/fix again? Does it provide more sustain? Volume? Mojo?


Properly fixing the foot to the top will help the tone and the volume - but if it is a 'tiny' gap, the difference may not be very preceptable.

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## Loubrava

> in order to "make good music", the sum total of all mandolin (and most other instruments as well) required gear = 10% at best, whereas the person doing the deed, which includes their brain and fingers = 99.9%, regardless of the gear used.  IOW, playing trumps all the chatter about gear.  period.


Couldn't agree more. But when I upgraded from a Loar 600 to a Weber Bitteroot something happened the Wife immediately told me how much better the Weber sounded She was amazed at the difference. Something happened to my tone and it had nothing to do with my skill, when I took the Weber to a jam the 4 guys who were real familiar with my meager playing on the Loar told me the Weber sounds way better than the Loar. Awhile back are drummer bought a very expensive kit and He sounds better than ever. I'm not a big gear guy thinking that my sound will improve with better more expensive gear but IMO there is a big difference in sound from a $300 dollar ax compared to a $4000 ax at least for intermediate players I know a top notch mando player could squeeze a fantastic sound out of 300 buck ax but that will never be most us.
Lou

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## rfd

fwiw, over the last 6 decades of messing with fretted instruments, i can attest to seeing and hearing first hand where sometimes an "ok" acoustic player will clearly sound at least somewhat better with a far more expensive instrument that simply has an important acoustic ingredient - lively resonance.  again, this doesn't happen with every player who plays the "upgrade game", but sometimes magic of sorts do seem to occur.  hands down, the truly mastercraft players can take that cheap asian whatever and just mesmerize you with both their playing and the resulting instruments tone.  it's all about the brain guided fingers.  save yer money ... unless you want to gamble on an instant upgrade from that big dollar custom box.

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Billkwando

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## Billkwando

> I'm not a big gear guy thinking that my sound will improve with better more expensive gear but IMO there is a big difference in sound from a $300 dollar ax compared to a $4000 ax at least for intermediate players I know a top notch mando player could squeeze a fantastic sound out of 300 buck ax but that will never be most us.
> Lou


When your wife heard it, did she already know that you paid the price of a used car for it??  :Disbelief:

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## Billkwando

I went back to the Guitar Center where I got my LM-310 today to see if they had Primetone picks, just to try out something closer in line to what the "real" mandolin players are using. I currently use Dunlop USA Nylon .73mm guitar picks (the gray ones), which are plenty bendy, but I have no complaints. My mandolin, as I've already mentioned, is already crazy loud....and I don't have any pick noise (that I've noticed) like I hear other folks talking about.

They only had the standard shape "grippy" picks, and only in sizes 1.0mm and below, so I bought a 3-pack of the 1.0mm and headed into the acoustic room to check it out, since I had recently seen that they had restocked the LM-310 (since I had bought their floor model, being the only one in the store).

Man....the setup on that thing was a horror show. I've mentioned (maybe in my other thread) how amazing my 310 plays, and had posited the theory that perhaps it was setup already, with the intention of it being the display model (either by The Loar factory, or by someone at GC). The action is super duper low, with no buzzes. I could probably put a coin under the strings and it would stay (I tried it with a sub-1mm pick and that didn't fly). I could see at least 5 or 6 turns of thread under the bridge, whereas on my 310 you can barely see 1 or 2....it's cranked almost all the way down. 

I also noticed that the bridge had a weird forward lean to it, toward the fingerboard. I popped the G string out (uh-oh!) to see if maybe the bridge was reversed, but it had a nice thick slot, so that wasn't the case (I suppose the base of the bridge could've still been on backwards though). 

Soooo, instead of trying out the Primetone pick, I spent most of what little was left of my lunch break cranking the bridge down to where mine is (and trying to quickly re-tune it), in hopes that the next person who comes along might have the same magical experience I had, instead of going "Ewwww!" and putting it back on the rack, forgotten.

Moral of the story is: Try before you buy, or be ready to get it set up (or to lower the bridge yourself), but don't be discouraged if you pick one up and the strings are super high. They don't have to be. 

Also, it's possible that I just picked one that was on the other extreme, setup wise, or maybe it shipped on a Friday (lazy employees) or someone messed with it in the store ( more unlikely) ....or it could've even been a return that somebody messed with while they had it at home. 

It's also another reminder that, as with the guitar, a large part of what we think of as the "quality" of the instrument has to do with how the finishing touches were applied, and whether it's properly set up. You could (unknowingly) pick up and play a Fender Custom Shop guitar in the store, and if the action is really high, you could easily dismiss it as a crappy guitar.

I'm curious what other folks that have gotten The Loar mandos have experienced with the default setup, to see where on the spectrum they typically fall. I really have to take a pic my 310, from the side, because I'm curious if my action is as low as I think it is, or if that's more the norm for the mandolin. 

All I know is, it plays like a dream.

Edit: I just realized you can get a pretty good look at the action in this video, around 7:23 to 7:30. Forgive the fact that I thought the scroll was called a florentine. I'd since asked around about whether I was calling it the right thing, and was kindly corrected (nobody yelled at me for being wrong, haha):

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## rfd

it's almost a sure bet that ALL production line mandos (and guitars, banjos, elec basses, etc) will require some manner of "set up", either because the instrument is *that* off, or simply to suit yer personal preferences.  total rank newbies to fretting instruments have no yardstick as to what good playability is all about, and that's a disadvantage that could lead to an instrument deal breaker, which is why music emporium vendors, brick face and online, need to at least offer education to their consumers.

buying ANY acoustic instrument without first playing that instrument will be a krap shoot - more so true with any production line offering.

as to plectrums/picks, it's about mass density, shape/size, thickness and surface finish.  to know all there is to know about a pick, *you* gotta use it otherwise, yup, there goes another krap shoot, and maybe dollars down the drain.

it's fine to listen to opinions of others, but for the most part, popular opinion is also just another form of krap shoot.  feelin' lucky?

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## Chris Daniels

> ...
> 
> I also noticed that the bridge had a weird forward lean to it, toward the fingerboard...
> 
> Also, it's possible that I just picked one that was on the other extreme, setup wise, or maybe it shipped on a Friday (lazy employees) or someone messed with it in the store ( more unlikely) ....or it could've even been a return that somebody messed with while they had it at home. 
> 
> ...
> 
> I'm curious what other folks that have gotten The Loar mandos have experienced with the default setup, to see where on the spectrum they typically fall...


There are literally hundreds of pages on this website dealing with the universal need for mandolins to require a setup after manufacture and the fact that big box and/or online stores (as opposed to individual luthiers or specialized dealers) do no setup at all before they ship you the box. All of the things you describe and more are very common and the reason Rob Meldrum's setup book is so popular.

There are nearly as many discussions over the last few years regarding The Loar brand and it's known deficiencies, which has resulted in two opposed love 'em/hate 'em groups. The general consensus of both groups is that very often the brand is nearly unplayable out of the box and that the extent of that unplayability varies widely. Both sides also agree the name is annoying, but one thinks they are great-value instruments totally worth the effort to get them playable and the other that they are eye-candy junk better left on the rack while saving for something else. Opinions yes, but (mostly) backed by a wealth of experience.

I spent many months lurking this site researching before I bought a The Loar LM-500 from an online site as an upgrade to the Epiphone MM50 I had been playing so I knew what I was getting into. The first one arrived with a broken end pin so I don't recall what else was wrong with it but I got pretty lucky with the second. The big three things with a new mando that are usually 'wrong' are the nut, frets, and bridge. The nut on mine was nearly perfect and I never messed with it. The frets were level but needed some cleanup on the edges but overall were fine. The bridge was a complete mess. String placement and spacing were very poor and it needed to be fitted to the top something fierce. I eventually found a very small crack in the foot when tweaking the fit, which gave me the excuse I was looking for to replace it with a Cumberland Acoustic bridge. The sound difference from that one component alone was jaw dropping.

String height is always a preference but I could never get either bridge on The Loar as low as the Epi (to this day the easiest playing mandolin I've owned) without it shutting down the volume/tone. Super-low action is not always optimal and I now prefer my Northfield's 'modern' setup with higher strings (both NF and the dealer I bought it from do a pro setup prior to sale so I had to do nothing), although it's taken some considerable time for my fingers to be able to handle it.

From the number of personal experiences I read about the The Loar brand before, during, and since I've owned it, more than likely there was some amount of setup of your LM-310 by GC or perhaps what flaws do exist are minimal enough for you to overlook during the honeymoon phase. The most important thing is that you enjoy it and it makes you want to play. The time for accessories, upgrades, etc will come later.

As for picks, there are a couple of samplers with dozens upon dozen of picks to try out going around. Everyone who has run the gauntlet of trying them all can no longer say that a pick is a pick is a pick. Each and every one is different from the rest.

C.

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Billkwando

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## Billkwando

> From the number of personal experiences I read about the The Loar brand before, during, and since I've owned it, more than likely there was some amount of setup of your LM-310 by GC or perhaps what flaws do exist are minimal enough for you to overlook during the honeymoon phase. The most important thing is that you enjoy it and it makes you want to play. The time for accessories, upgrades, etc will come later.



Right. Now that I've looked at my 310 again, I realize that the lean I was seeing in the bridge just seemed more pronounced because it was cranked up so insanely high, coupled with the arch of the top, creating a "leaning tower" effect to my eye. It may even be that a previous customer lowered the bridge, as I did on the sad 310 they had on display today. 

The nut, the frets, and bridge on mine are all sweet, with the exception of the small bridge foot gap I mentioned previously. I own six guitars, so I know all about frets and nuts!  :Laughing:  The action at the first fret is amazing, and I've checked every fret on every string, and found zero buzzes. I can't even see space between the string and the first fret (at least in the dark man cave where I'm writing this from).

Also, I've seen the repair yoyo they have at my local GC, and I know there's no way he set this mando up. I'm guessing it came nice from the factory, or somebody cranked down the bridge and the rest was just quality Chinese workmanship....it does exist, after all. Good QC is where it counts.  :Wink: 


I went ahead and snapped some pics, so you guys can tell me if this looks like a normal action height or if you think I could/should go lower:









These pics show the only bridge feet gaps I can find, just on the corners. The paper wouldn't go in any further even if I tried to angle it further to one side or the other:






As far as upgrades, instrument wise, this is it. I assured my wife that this is basically the mandolin I'm gonna die with. I didn't go looking for it...it found me, haha.  After buying 2 different Japan-exclusive artist signature electric guitars, (and having them shipped from there) in the past 2 years, she's about had it with me getting instruments, and that's considering that she plays guitar herself. 

Luckily, she's ok with my "I need one of everything" philosophy (one has a 24 frets, which I didn't have one of...not counting my Rickenbacker 360....and the other is a strat with singles, which I also didn't have one of). Since she plays, that helps too...but I've basically assured her that I only need the 1 bass, 1 mandolin, 5 electric guitars (she has 3 of her own too, that I'm not counting...as well as a cheap Mahalo uke) so basically I've got room to get one nice acoustic (the last thing I'm missing) and then that's pretty much it. So no MAS for me.... I'm more of a "fix up what I got" kinda guy, anyway, though obviously that would probably be a little silly with The Loar. I put a pickup in it...may get an armrest, that's prolly gonna be it.....other than fixing the bridge feet, if you guys think it's worth the trouble.

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## MikeZito

> Rickenbacker 360....


Two words that always kick my GAS into gear . . . .

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## rfd

the playability of any stringed instrument - chiefly, string action as expressed by the setting of the neck, nut slots and bridge/saddle height, as expressed by the scale length, gauge and tension of the strings - belongs to the requirements of the player.  this is strictly a human feel/touch and hearing understanding and acknowledgement.

the more proper physical contact of the bridge to the soundboard, the better it will do its sound transmission job.

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## MikeZito

Bill: Everybody likes their action a bit different - and I am certainly no expert, by any stretch of the imagination . . . but if that were my mandolin, I would most definitely bring the action down quite a bit.  From what I can see of the pictures, it looks like you are getting high past the 5th fret or so.  My suggestion would be to turn the thumbwheels all the way down for the lowest possible action, and then begin to play - if the action seems too low, or you get dead notes, then slowly begin to bring it back up again, until you feel that it is comfortable.

NOTE: That is just my amateur opinion.  Anybody else want to chime in?

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## rfd

that's the way to go, mike - trust yer fingers and ears, as they are the absolute best and most truthful measuring tools for playability.  the rest is in tweaking the hardware to make it do want you alone want it to do, which WILL require tools.  not rocket science, just knowledge ... and a touch of craftsmanship, perhaps.

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## Folkmusician.com

> I went ahead and snapped some pics, so you guys can tell me if this looks like a normal action height or if you think I could/should go lower:


Hello Kitty Neck rest!  That is great.  I am a closet fan...  My wife has a fair amount that I secretly admire.  haha

It is always difficult to judge by pics, but in this case, it appears that the action is on the high side and there is too much relief. If this is truly the case (and not just an optical illusion), then removing some relief will also bring the action down.

The very basics of setup would go..
Set relief
Set Nut height
Set bridge height
Set intonation

There are many things this basic setup does not address. Such as, checking the height of the first fret before setting the nut height. It is not uncommon for the first fret to be high since frets are often leveled with the nut on and the first fret does not get enough leveling. Set the nut height to a high first fret, and your action ends up higher than it should be on every fret after the first. Moving the bridge for intonation, changes the string height, string height changes intonation...  You go back and forth through these two, until it comes together.  Many of the adjustments can be standardized with excellent results, but as you get down to the bleeding edge, everything becomes a factor and you may need to do multiple minor tweaks.  

With high action, minor fret issues go unnoticed, if your relief is close, that is good enough, etc...  as the action comes down, all of those minor issues, become major issues.

Everything is a compromise.  Want a low nut height and little to no relief. Get the frets completely level and dressed, everything seems perfect, but what is this terrible buzz?  It is the string buzzing behind the fretted note. You are fretting the 7th fret, and the string is lightly buzzing at the 6th.  Arg! Your seemingly perfect setup needs more relief, which means lower the bridge, adjusting the intonation, maybe the bridge is bottomed out and needs to be recut..  All fun stuff, and precisely why it is very rare to get lower priced mandolins with top level setups. It is not the quality of the instrument that is the problem. It is the lack of profit from the sale to cover the level of setup needed to get an instrument playing great.  A select handful of dealers do this, but it is probably less than 1%.

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## Folkmusician.com

On the subject of this mandolin....

These were first released as a GC exclusive. So far, only GC subsidiaries have them. The GC release was accompanied by special promo pricing, and I believe that just stopped. They will be released to all The Loar dealers soon. 

This model has a lot of potential, but I am not sure how many of the better dealers (those doing good setup work), will stock it. It is very difficult to roll the setup work in at this price point.

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## Hudmister

Bought the LM-310F about two weeks ago from GC on-line.  It need a full set up.  I have done many mandolin set ups and certainly it is to be expected that it will be required but I often wonder what happens to the first time player with no experience.  The fret work needed some leveling, the bridge was 3/8" too far forward and the truss rod was completely loose as if when it was installed no one tightened up the nut even a little.  This of course is to be expected with a new $249.99 instrument.  The top of the saddle was cut at an angle (see photo) and my first thought was, Oh this must be a new design approach.  I was able to get a very nice action with the saddle adjusted as low as it would go, touching the top of the bridge. The original strings were light gauge so I installed EJ-74s and this helped the tone but overall I was disappointed and returned the mandolin to my local GC.  They were very nice about the refund.

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## MikeZito

I recently had my 310 professionally set up - the whole 9 yards; bridge work, fret leveling, nut cut, intonation, etc.  Including the original cost of the mandolin, I am now into the Loar for $300.  While it does not play as well as my Eastman (which cost more than double my 310 investment), the Loar does have better tone - so, for those who are still thinking about buying a 310, in the end, it is all a matter of budget, and personal preference.

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## Billkwando

> Hello Kitty Neck rest!  That is great.  I am a closet fan...  My wife has a fair amount that I secretly admire.  haha
> 
> It is always difficult to judge by pics, but in this case, it appears that the action is on the high side and there is too much relief. If this is truly the case (and not just an optical illusion), then removing some relief will also bring the action down.
> 
> The very basics of setup would go..
> Set relief
> Set Nut height
> Set bridge height
> Set intonation
> ...





> I recently had my 310 professionally set up - the whole 9 yards; bridge work, fret leveling, nut cut, intonation, etc.  Including the original cost of the mandolin, I am now into the Loar for $300.  While it does not play as well as my Eastman (which cost more than double my 310 investment), the Loar does have better tone - so, for those who are still thinking about buying a 310, in the end, it is all a matter of budget, and personal preference.


The Hello Kitty neck rest! I made that myself and covered it with my wife's HK duct tape (she has quite the collection herself, including a Fender Hello Kitty electric guitar). It seemed like it would be a good conversation piece.  :Laughing: 



So anyway, I took a stab at setting mine up, since I do all my own guitars. Adjusted the truss rod, and now you can only fit a business card under the 7th fret (when you're capo-ing 1 and hold down 12) if you shove it under there. Lowered the action as low as I could get it, and fitted the bridge to top. I actually had the neck flatter at first, but had this mysterious buzz on the G string (only sometimes) when I'd strum really hard on chords, down around the 1st and 2nd frets. 

As a result, I ended up introducing a bit more relief back, to try to allow room for the vibration of the string. I swear it felt like it was buzzing against the upper part of the fingerboard. Still, it plays great (and it already did before, in my opinion, but then learned there was room for improvement).....but I figured maybe I was missing out by not getting it to play even better. I have no problems using my pinky, but again, I didn't before either.

Also, the aforementioned bit of buzz I'm referring to happened when I strummed pretty hard....we're talking Luka Bloom "Delirious" or Indigo Girls' "Land of Canaan" hard...which is maybe harder then you're even supposed to play on mandolin. I've certainly never heard Thile "hit it 'til it goes BONG", but I also have only seen random bits on YouTube. Maybe poor technique on my part.

I did make a video covering how to fit the bridge feet (much like the frets.com article, minus the pocket knife) because I couldn't find anything that specifically covered that on YouTube (unless I missed it somehow), and went ahead and covered intonation as well.

This way, if someone's a visual learner and only feels comfortable doing something after they've seen it done, they will be able to take this video and run with it.




I did notice that my nut is way taller than the slots, as my understanding is that the strings should be half in/half out of the grooves, whereas my strings are buried deep in the grooves, but it doesn't seem to be affecting the sound any. 

Maybe the next time I change strings I'll try grinding the top of the nut down, but I didn't know if it was different for a bone nut (which I don't think I've ever had to work on before), and since it didn't seem to be affecting the sound I figured I'd leave it alone.

Man, new strings sound HORRIBLE (D' J74s), totally unlike a guitar.....where for the first few days you get that nice "piano-esque" sound from the wound strings. On mandolin, it's just overtone city....mad tinny. I can already tell it's starting to pass, but I seriously almost reconsidered my usual habit of washing my hands every time I'm going to play, in hopes that the strings might go "dead" sooner......but I didn't.  :Wink: 

Also, I didn't think to ask Rob for his setup guide until AFTER I set mine up, but it turns out I'd already picked up 95% of the useful bits from reading the forums, or knew from past experience (plus the few bits that probably aren't detailed enough, or I didn't completely agree with, like where it seems to have folks sanding bridge feet freehand).

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## p.crane@sbcglobal.net

Recently bought  a The Loar lm310f and the action's a bit clunky/stiff, i.e. if you don't finger some of the frets precisely (especially the first) there are "dead spots" or buzzing. Because it wasn't set up when I got it, I suspect/hope that's the reason. Mando vets with experience with this instrument, can you help?Thanks.

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## Chris Daniels

> Recently bought  a The Loar lm310f and the action's a bit clunky/stiff, i.e. if you don't finger some of the frets precisely (especially the first) there are "dead spots" or buzzing. Because it wasn't set up when I got it, I suspect/hope that's the reason. Mando vets with experience with this instrument, can you help?Thanks.


Yes! Regardless of brand/model, this is exactly why a good pro setup is recommended. Frets leveled/dressed, neck relief set (if there's a truss rod), nut and bridge slots filed to proper depth, bridge set to optimal height, etc. The LM310 can be a great beginner/intermediate instrument, but they definitely require some work to play to their potential.

Of course, if you're handy and have basic tools, Rob Meldrum's e-book will get you most if not all the way there. Send him a PM and he'll hook you up.

C.

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## mondoslug

Well, no playing mando player me is sorta on a quest for an instrument.
There's so many factors that go into the sound, not the least of which is having no chops on the thing and I am definitely a snob as far as the next person concerning laminate vs. solid wood instruments go... but I played a 520 at GC today that I really wanted to like and and a 310 at a local mom & pop store & the 310 won. The 520 was shiny, the top end is possibly a little sweeter but not much low end, the 310 just felt and sounded good. They both had similar action. Maybe it's not having the extended fretboard causing me to play a little more towards the body. It was just a warmer sound. Of course I realize that this is a super low sample size. I dunno...I might do it.

That is all!

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## Good Vibrations

As a re-entry instrument I bought it a couple of months ago. And I looked for a good beginner mandolin. So this is the cheapest with a hand carved top. Although I'm not able to compare I'm very very happy with it. We haven't a lot of dealers here but maybe I'd like to find a better one in some years.
For the price I couldn't expect more. Great deal!

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