# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  Weber vs other high end mandolins

## sachmo63

OK, there's been a lot of discussion of the weber brand and many loyal fans are present here. Heck I've even owned a yellowstone for a while and I should have never sold it but thats another story.

What I'd like to know how do weber mandolins compare to other makers of similar pricing. There are too many builders to list but thats really what I'm interested in. If you've seen a weber that knocked your socks off or not.

I of course want to hear from everyone, but i'd like to know what non-weber owners think of the weber mandolins they've seen.

Thanks to any and all who help.

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## mandroid

Heard a couple players on their Weber Gallatins , sounded fine.

It is spare on the things that don't really make a sound,

 like binding and  labor intensive sunbursted finish colors.


My new favorite is a Mix A5.  very Schwartz.  :Cool:

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## allenhopkins

Don't own any Webers.  Played a few, and liked them.  My sox are still on my feet.

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## Rob Gerety

I had a used Weber Vintage A (Oval) in my house for a few day on approval recently when I was shopping for an oval.  I also went on a trip around to all the shops and played a lot of different ovals including Collings, Eastman, Weber, Capek, and a few others I can't remember.  I ended up going with a vintage Gibson A4 and I feel in love the Gibson ovals.  But, of all the modern ovals I played the Weber was the standout in my opinion.  It was extremely resonate and very well put together. I liked it a lot and I suspect someday down the road I might buy one if I can ever put the money together.  I think the one I played is still for sale at Mandolin Brothers.  I am new to mandolin but I have played guitar for years and I think I have a decent ear for quality instruments.  That Weber oval I played is a very nice instrument, no doubt about it.

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## Patrick Gunning

In my experience, put the average Weber at a given price point vs. the average Collings at that same price point, and the Collings wins by a pretty significant margin in terms of tone, response, and playability.

Not touching the topic of Gibson with a 10 foot pole.  Too many smaller builders to get into...

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## Rob Gerety

> In my experience, put the average Weber at a given price point vs. the average Collings at that same price point, and the Collings wins by a pretty significant margin in terms of tone, response, and playability.


I could not disagree more. 180 degrees out. At least on the oval holes.  See, this shows how subjective this can be.

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## Chris Biorkman

I'd guess that probably 75% of the posters on this board are forming their opinions of a builder based on f-holed mandolins.

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## sachmo63

F holes are my concern however its good to hear from the ovals also. Its interesting about the collings, sorta my thoughts also but that may just be inherent in the carving of the mandolin, i.e. gibsons sound like gibsons...

Oh and i'm not touching the gibson thing either. More interested in smaller builders.

The reason for the post is that I see most of the yellowstones and ferns are priced between 4 and 6K, moderately priced with most other builders out there.

Keep em coming.

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## Kevin Briggs

I am a happy Weber owner, and feel very justified in my decision to have a Weber. I have owned one since I was first getting into high end mandolins. 

I feel strongly about the quality of my mandolin, but I won't get too into that because I will let some videos I made be your reference point. I originally started making videos of my custom Fern to document the sound and how it may or may not change over a year. I recorded it at every opportunity. 

The recording device is actually a Canon digital camera, with what I think is digital sound. It is very close to what my mandolin sounds like in person, capturing the sustain, responsiveness, and volume. Some of the overtones are not captured, which is disappointing, but for about $100 it is a darn good recording device. Basically what's missing is the almost reverb kind of sound that I can hear inside the sound chamber. 

It's really a very complex sounding instrument. When I commissioned Weber to make it, I did so because I knew I would get a loud, supremely built F5. I had no doubts about what I was basically getting. I went with Weber because I knew I could trust their craftsmanship, and I was still reeling from an independent commission that was below my expectations. However, what Weber made me was far beyond anything I could have hoped for, and they have my loyalty and most sincere respect for what they are able to do.

That said, here are a few videos I made of Webers that may help you decide for yourself:

My buddy Jared playing his original Gallatin (spruce mahogany, original Brekke bridge, Thomastiks). He loves Chris Thile, so God bless him for going for this tough song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3LvsDOh_OE

A Big Sky A (cedar top, EXP74s). Appearance by my late little girl Cassie; bad rhythm; notice high notes at about 147:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK7KWKJA2IU

Me on my custom Fern, solo, trying to play "Katie Hill"; EXP74s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3JWfeYFEh8

Here's one that features the chop on my custom Fern (disregard dated Philadelphia Eagles rant). It also shows the playability and how it sounds up the neck, which in person is supersonic; EXP74s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkjF-CwBwKw

Here's Jared and I (custom Fern, EXP74s) playing "Amazing Grace," with Jared on guitar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7p0putshsw

Me playing with the Lancaster Mandolin Trio. My one buddy is playing an Eastman 600 series, and the other is playing Mortez #3 ("The Gibson" headstock). I am closest to the camera playing my then new custom Fern (EXP74s). Hint, I am the only one consistently chopping, so that's the Fern you hear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBaFS4umvww

My custom Fern (EXP74s) in a full group setting (Mighty Fine playing Wichita):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-mR8FZ4iG4

Please know that I posted these videos just so people could make their own judgements about Weber tone. Personally, it is what I want. I think there are many wonderful mandolin makers out there, but I am happy to have a strong preference. The videos represent the tone very well in my estimation, and I think you can get a basic idea of what Weber has to offer.

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## Marcus CA

Whenever I've played a new Weber in a store, it sounds pretty confined.  However, the used ones --- which have all been sub-Yellowstone --- have had a definite richness to them.

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## Charles E.

I have played quite a few Webers at a local shop and the sound has been hit or miss. I have a friend who worked with their custom department on an A-5 and it is one of the best mando's I have played. I think you just have to play them to find the sound for you.

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## kirksdad

I have a Weber Yellowstone Custom.  I couldn't disagree with the above any more when it comes to the Collings versus Weber comparison.  I think you get a lot more for your money on the Weber if you pick the dealer carefully.  Collings are very nice, but the only ones I have ever felt great were the varnish models, both oval and F, but they are very expensive.  I played a MT2V (?)A style that was awesome, but loved the Vintage A from Weber just as much.  It looked better and was much better priced.  I think the two most important features on any mando are sound and playability.

KD

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## tburcham

Sachmp63

I've yet to play a Collings that I would trade my 2008 Honey Tortoise Yellowstone (Red Spruce top) for.  I've played an MF at the Artisan in Nashville.  It was very nice, but didn't move my MAS meter at all.  I played an MF-5 (a much more expensive mandolin) that was just plain average...maybe it had very old strings on it...but it was average.  

Now to be completely candid, I've played some Webers that were just average as well.  In talking with Dennis at the Mandolin Store, he's convinced that Weber has "turned it up a notch" in the last couple of years (he's also favorably impressed with recent offerings from the _Mothership_).  My Yellowstone is an 08 model, but I've followed the comments of many new Weber owners during the past couple of years and it seems to me that they are all very pleased with their Webers.  

FYI....at the Mid South Mando Confab I recently was so fortunate to attend--there were 21 mandolins in the room...none of them were Collings.  Now I'm not saying Collings are not wonderful mandolins...they are, but among that group of Grassers, no one was on the Collings wagon (BTW...my Yellowstone was the only Weber there, as well).

In the end, it comes down to personal preference with regard to tone, volume, playability, etc.  I don't think a person could go wrong with any of big shop instruments (Weber, Gibson, Collings).  The small shop builders (Silverangel, Brentrup, Mowry, Stanley, Altman, etc.) are turning out phenomenal mandolins as a fair price.

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## GRW3

Based on a scale that sets Gibson as the neutral tone, I find Collings to be bright (and little tight new) and Webers to be warm, in comparison. Each of these three has a definable sound. I find the build quality to be roughly equivalent, factored for the differences in reported amount of hand work, for instruments of a similar finish level though at those levels the Gibson has a hefty premium. I don't think you can go wrong with any one of these if you find the sound you like.

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## woodwizard

I've never owned one but I've played quite a few Webers and thought they all sound pretty decent. Some better than others but none were terrible. Got to play a Weber mandola last Sat. for the first time for about an hour at an OT jam. I really liked it a lot. Had a really mello tone. The only negative might be that I thought it didn't appear to be loud enough. Sweet sounding tho.

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## Mike Snyder

I don't know, George. Seems to me that the Collings get the premium dollar, these days. Kinda hard to find models that equate across the board, but F5G- Yellowstone- MF5 should roughly be of equal value. The Yellowstone has more bling, as far as binding. The MF5 carries the highset price tag. I sure don't consider the Gibson tone neutral. I play frequently in a jam with exactly these three instruments, and my Gibson is the darkest of the three. I have it set-up that way, strings and pick chosen specifically for that sound, but.......there you have it. I really love the sound of the Weber AND the Collings. Heck, I love good mandolins, whatever it says on the label. To be quite truthful, the Weber and the Collings blow my Gibby out of the water in build quality, but not sound. They're both voiced brighter than the Gibson. There's no GOOD, BETTER, BEST, here. Three very good mandos. I like mine. They like theirs. Everybody's happy.

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## Ivan Kelsall

My own Weber Fern is a 'standard' Sitka Spruce topped model,nothing 'customised' about it. The most expensive & highly regarded Mandolins i've had chance to compare it to,was a couple of years back when i got the chance to play a bunch of 'Daleys' that were for sale at a Bluegrass festival stall. The most expensive was at the time, almost twice the price of my Fern. They were all nice & very well made,but i wouldn't have exchanged my Fern for any of them. There's a big *'but'* here - they were all brand new & not 'played in',something to remember when playing instruments 'in store' & comparing to one's own instrument,which may have been played in over many years. Or as our friend Kevin would put it _'matured'_.
  I've not had the opportunity that some of you guys have had,of playing many high quality Mandolins,but since i had a minor adjustment made to my Fern several weeks ago,which has increased it's volume quite out of proportion to what was done, & complemented by it's already excellent tone,i think i'd have to look at a LOT of Mandolins before i found one that was substantially 'better' than my Weber. But as always, it's a matter of personal taste,
                                                                                                               Ivan

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## Mike Snyder

Be aware, also, that Weber has a series of instruments called Bighorn that are, IMHO, a whole other species. They have a larger sound chamber that gives them a very large, deep sound. The mandola I played last summer had a voice that is haunting me to this day. It had the "D" hole, and would be in the top three instruments, if I were to consider buying another. Perfect for old-time music. These are two point bodies, immaculate builds. Beautiful. Weber is at the top of their game right now.

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## Chris "Bucket" Thomas

I have played a bunch of Webers.  The finish and appearance are top notch.  But, sound wise none have ever been "it" (for me).  Nice but not great.
I have wondered if this is because they are so heavy.

To my ear; there are others mandolins at similier prices that I prefer.

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## red7flag

I am a fan of Weber, but not when trying to get that Bill Monroe sound (think Stanley).  If you want to hear some really nice work on Webers in modern bluegrass listen to Daily and Vincent or Rhonda Vincent.  Both have a really nice sound.  I mostly play my Vintage A playing Irish music and the beautiful singing tone is just perfect.  For an old tymey sound I would lean to a Gibby snakehead.  While they are both oval a's they are very different.  I would agree with the above post about the Vintage A being a great manifistation of the oval.  I have played a Yellowstone that was set up for grass.  Nice instrument, but would not touch either my Stanley or Ellis.  I would agree with Dennis' comment about Weber "turning it up a notch" in recent years.

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## Rick Schmidlin

I had a Weber Custum Cedar Yellowstone, about five years ago. I traded up for my MF5. It was a neck thing. I still have MAS for a old wood A as a  partner!

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## Capt. E

> Be aware, also, that Weber has a series of instruments called Bighorn that are, IMHO, a whole other species. They have a larger sound chamber that gives them a very large, deep sound. The mandola I played last summer had a voice that is haunting me to this day. It had the "D" hole, and would be in the top three instruments, if I were to consider buying another. Perfect for old-time music. These are two point bodies, immaculate builds. Beautiful. Weber is at the top of their game right now.


I own a Weber Bighorn (ff holes) mandolin that I just love. See my avatar and photos. Very big sound and very nice balance tone. I agree the Bighorn is a bit of a different animal and I also agree about the Warm vs Bright sound of Weber vs Collings.  Weber vs Collings seems to be a matter of individual taste.

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## mikeyes

I suggest that when you test drive a Weber, that you have someone play it for you before you make a decision.  I find that the Collins instruments sound about the same to me from the player's position, but that Webers sound better when you are listening from the front.  

I have an Oval Hole Bighorn that sounds much better when I hear someone else play it or on video.  Other Webers that I have played have the same feature, they don't sound as good when I play it but are great when I hear them.  

It may be me  :Grin:  but I suspect not.  If you go to the social group for Webers you will see that I didn't have a terrific opinion of Webers, but since then I have had the opportunity to hear them from the front and the back.

Mike Keyes

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## Lefty Luthier

Over the past few years I have had the opportunity to scientifically test (frequency analysis & output amplitude) of most top of the line custom builders instruments and found significant similarity between them, all pretty good. The absolute best that I tested, including several of my manufacture, was one built by Stan Miller. It was absolutely fantastic by any measure.

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## DeamhanFola

> I could not disagree more. 180 degrees out. At least on the oval holes.  See, this shows how subjective this can be.


I definitely agree with Rob--I think oval hole Webers (in particular the Bridger A and the Vintage A) are second to none. On two occasions this I A/B/Cd a Weber Vintage A, a Collings Deluxe MT Oval, and a number of vintage Gibson ovals, and for my style the Weber was a hands down winner.

I actually had gone there to test a 'teens Gibson A3, as I'd always been in love with the sound of a former seisiun-mate's A3--while it sounded great, the Weber did more for me. I had high expectations for the Collings as well (I think they make the best dreadnaughts out there, bar none), and again it was nice, but didn't do it for me the way the Vintage A did. I might have walked out with it, but I like a wide nut. Somewhere down the line, a custom wide nut one's got my name on it.

I'm not an f-hole guy, but I tried a Yellowstone with a cedar top that was sweeeet too.

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## barry k

Lefty......I am, and Im sure others here are interested in your research of frequency and amplitude of the top brand make mandolins. Which mandolins were involved in the testing and what were the rankings in order of results?  What was your testing strategy, what equipment was used , what were the readings or outcome figures. Were there any Webers involved in this research, and where did they rank? I would love to have my mandolins tested to determine  exactly what they are putting out. Pardon the highjack.

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## re simmers

It's all subjective, but I like my Gallatin and I like my '91 Flatiron w/Bruce's signature.   The Gallatin is very good for the money.   The Flatiron is excellent.

Bob

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## Potosimando

Sachmo63:  You wrote, "...I of course want to hear from everyone, but i'd like to know what non-weber owners think of the weber mandolins they've seen..."

I have owned a couple a Webers (no longer own them), and have played several others...and I have never been overly impressed with them (I am sure some are great, but many/most others simply are not).  In fact, the title of this thread "Weber vs. other high-end mandolins" surprised me because I did not realize that anyone considered Webers as "high-end" mandolins.  I have heard that the old-wood oval-hole Webers are quite remarkable and that the tone of these particular Weber instruments do indeed compare favorably with high-end mandolins (I choose to believe this, for what it's worth, but I have not played one).

Please believe me that I am not trying to stir up controversy here or to cause hard feelings (heck, I have been madly in love with various mandolins that are much lesser mandolins than Webers).  In the interest of Mandolin-Cafe honesty however, I thought that it would be appropriate to point out that many (most?) of us certainly do not consider Webers to be "high-end" mandolin.  Yes, Webers are very nice mandolins, but from what I have seen and believe to be the case, Webers are somewhere in the middle of the mid-level mandolins.

Sorry for any offense in the above.  Again, without question Webers are fine mandos...just not anywhere near the top of the heap.

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## tburcham

> I am a happy Weber owner, and feel very justified in my decision to have a Weber. I have owned one since I was first getting into high end mandolins. 
> 
> I feel strongly about the quality of my mandolin, but I won't get too into that because I will let some videos I made be your reference point. I originally started making videos of my custom Fern to document the sound and how it may or may not change over a year. I recorded it at every opportunity.


Great post Kevin!

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## sachmo63

Kevin, the "high end" comment was because from what I can gather you'll pay anywhere from the low $4's to the mid $6's for anything from a Yellowstone to a Fern. Even the Oval A's go for around the mid $3's. And for that money you can certainly get a high end mando from a slew of builders.

Granted I'm sure some people don't even consider high end until you get to the $8K-25K but for the majority of players I would assume $6,000 is a fair amount to try and convince your spouse to spend on an instrument. It is for me at least........

I think Weber would love to be considered in the top tier of builders, whether they are or not remains to be seen. Who knows in 50 years they may be many peoples 401K.

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## Kip Welty

I would go with a custom builder, there are so many excellent builders.  I have played a few Webers and liked em but did not love em.

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## mandolirius

> Granted I'm sure some people don't even consider high end until you get to the $8K-25K but for the majority of players I would assume $6,000 is a fair amount to try and convince your spouse to spend on an instrument. It is for me at least........


I don't think you can determine the "high end" based on individual perspective. The scale is what it is. At the top is the "extreme" high end, the Loars and then the Ferns and some other exotic models like D'Angelicos.
Then you get into your Gilchrists, Nuggets, Dudenbostels and  Monteleones, instruments that can command 20K and up. After that, you've got Master Models, Ellis, Red Diamond, Heiden and so on. These are in the 10-20K, range. I guess the next range down is 5-10K, then maybe 2-5K down to 2K and under. Based on that, Webers are in the low to middle range. Definitely not high end.

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## Mike Snyder

Maybe that just makes them a bargain. I've not got a horse in this race, I'm a Gibson man, but my ears tell me that Weber makes mandos that can run with the upper middles, at least. Go to the Weber site and listen to Josh Bailey tear up the Cuckoos' Nest on his F Elite, or Briggs, or Bruce Graybill. Those are seriously GOOD mandolins.

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AquillaRoseTennant

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## rnjl

Two points: 

1) I've heard tremendous sounds coming from Webers in the hands of the right players. I've heard mediocre sounds coming out of more expensive mandolins in the hands of other players. 

2) I was in a shop with many mandolins recently and there was a Collings that I played a little and liked but didn't absolutely love. Another guy comes into the shop, picks it up, starts playing and it sounds great and he starts talking to me about how much he LOVES that mandolin and he can't wait to get his other Collings back from the repair dept. 

That day, I played a few Webers, Collings, Gibson and Breedlove mandolins, and if I had $3K in my pocket (and wanted another mando, which, today, I don't) I'd have gotten the Breedlove Alpine, because I loved the way it felt, looked, and sounded. It just clicked for me and my ears and hands. 

I don't think you can generalize about Webers any more than you can generalize about anything made from wood by human hands- there's going to be some variation and the process matching player to instrument is really particular to the individual person and his or her style and preferences and talents (or, in my case, lack thereof.)

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## Lefty Luthier

> Lefty......I am, and Im sure others here are interested in your research of frequency and amplitude of the top brand make mandolins. Which mandolins were involved in the testing and what were the rankings in order of results?  What was your testing strategy, what equipment was used , what were the readings or outcome figures. Were there any Webers involved in this research, and where did they rank? I would love to have my mandolins tested to determine  exactly what they are putting out. Pardon the highjack.


It is probably not politic to mention builder's names but suffice it that I tested 14 instruments owned by individuals, some who regularly participate here, plus 3 of mine. Technique for frequency was with Peterson Strobo Soft and high resolution microphone and a rapid sequence camera to record each string individually plus 4 basic cords. Acoustic output with a fairly good Db meter used for highway noise recording. As to my qualifications, MS in Acoustical Engineering and 35 years R&D in Boeing's Acoustic Research Lab.

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## Nick Triesch

Weber mandolins have wonderful fit and finish.  Mine is like a beautiful little very high polished music box.  Nick

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AquillaRoseTennant

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## barry k

I havent done any comparitive research on intruments, but if I did, I certainly would share it with this mandolin community. Independant testing like that is a public service, please share, the builders wont mind.. they will appriciate it.

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## Kevin Briggs

It's great to see that so many people chimed in on this thread. I think the "vs" tag definitely puts us all in a position to start debating about what's good and what's not. 

My take on Webers being "good" has always started with the knowledge that Bruce Weber knows what he is doing. History speaks for itself in that regard, starting with the Flatirons and existing most recently with the Resonator Guitars. The build, tone, finish, etc. of Weber acoustic instruments is most definitely intentional. 

There's this dated idea from some people that goes something like, "Well, they're trying to do a good job up there in Montana, but just can't quite get to the level of the Flatirons." It's absurd. How can the person who was in charge of building the Flatirons for most of the 90s not know how to build a mandolin that is at least equally as "good?" It's not like he forgot what he was doing when he decided not to move to Nashville. On the contrary, the experimenting and upgrading that has occurred at Weber has resulted in incredible instruments, and the most diverse line of acoustic instruments in the industry. 

The vague criticism of early Webers was mostly a result of two things: 

1. An idea to build a different kind of mandolin (how many mandolins built to exacting Loar specs do we actually need?)

2. A business plan that priced the instruments to be affordable.

Unfortunately, we often value something based on what we expect and the price tag. I think it is a detriment to the mandolin industry and to our collective artistic consciousness that so many players decide whether or not an instrument is good based on how much it sounds like a 90 year old Loar. That is not a comment about Loars, because they are obviously iconic, but it is a comment about us players. 

I did it just a few weeks ago when I played a Gil. I was expecting some kind of tone I couldn't even comprehend, something that was not humanly possible, all based on the knowledge that it was a $20,000 mandolin made by someone who I know is a gentleman and a quality musician. What I played was something that was wonderful, but I put it down feeling great about the mandolin I own. I was like, "the quality of this wonderful Gil is not over and above my mandolin."

Weber's business plan is obviously to produce a certain number of mandolins that people can actually buy. There are lots of Webers out there right now, and that alone makes some critics say, "Ah well, there are a lot of them, so...." This line of thinking is not based on experience. It is based on a general philosophy about the mandolin market, or ay market for that matter. 

Based on the price breakdown in an earlier post, that places early Gils in the low-mid range for "goodness." If we account for inflation, it places them in the high mid-range." I am often crious when people say they played five Webers and they thought they were all [insert negative comment here]. I've probably played over 20 of them in my life, three of which I played for extended periods of time, and I don't recall a lemon in the bunch. They were all in the atmosphere of the more expensive mandolins I've played, and often better to my ears.

In the end, as is always determined in these types of threads, that's what it comes down to. My ears, hands, eyes, and heart result in my affinity for Webers. I love my Fern, and thought the Big Sky A and maple Bitteroot I had were great as well. When I visited the company, I played all kinds of instruments that were top notch. When I've had the opportunity to consciously compare my instrument with another one, I am always glad I have what I have, for the simple reason that I love the tone and playability.

Please note that I never really think poorly of a fine, handcrafted mandolin. I've contacted everyone from Don Paine, Bulldog Barry, Steven Gilchrist, Gibson, Poe, John Hamlet, and many others because I know they would build me something awesome. They are also in what I would call a "high-end" category. I think that once we get to a certain level, whatever the cutoff is, everything has merits. It just depends on what we prefer. Trying to categorize it all by prices just defines the market. It's like a statistic in sports. It means something, but does not necessarily tell you who the champion is. In the mandolin world (not market), only individuals can decide what their "best" is.

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AquillaRoseTennant

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## Rob Gerety

Well put Kevin.  Based on my limited experience so far I know that when I am stricken with my next case of MAS Weber will be at the very top of my list.  I am very impressed with the quality of these instruments.

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## GTG

In the past I was not too impressed with Webers - I tried several at a few different shops and festivals, in 2004-2006 or so. They mostly sounded tight and a bit dull, although the finish was very clean and they looked well-made. But a year or so ago I played a late-1990s Yellowstone on consignment that was really excellent - sound just jumped out of the thing. It was tagged for Can$2500, as I recall, and is probably the best sounding instrument I've played at that price point. 

Something clicked for me not too long ago. I realized that my own Collings MF, when cold, sounded ok (a bit bright and thin), but after about 20-30 minutes of playing, really woke up, with a rich, full sound that could be so loud it almost hurts my ears. Somewhere here I read that this tends to be a characteristic of adirondack spruce tops; apparently the 'wake up' period can decrease as the instrument opens up over time too. So now I kind of regard many of these testimonials (and my earlier experiences) with a lot of skepticism. How often do we try out an instrument (in a store, for instance, or at a jam) and actually play it for more than 20 minutes straight? Sometimes, but often, after 5 minutes it's like "well, it's not bad, but I'll put it back on the wall and try the next one".

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## doc holiday

Forums are interesting cyberplaces.  They all have their own culture, language and style.  I have to admit that opinions frequently differ, and there is often the common trend towards generalities.  By the way, I agree with Mandolirius take on the thread title posted by the OP.  Personally I also could give a rat's tail whose name is on the mandolin each of you plays.  I am much more interested in the music, personalities, interesting stories than whose the best, which mandolin is best etc.  I also agree with Sachmo63 that 6k is a heck of a lot of money.  Even so, while you may get a lot of good mandolins and some great ones for 6k, that's still a low ceiling for an f-style mandolin from a builder of reputation.  Kevin B, there are two points on which I would take a different view than yours.  First "once we get to a certain level, whatever the cutoff is, everything has merits," I would suggest that whatever set of criteria you choose, everything has it's merits.  In other words I don't think that for example, every mandolin over 6k is equal.  Bruce Greybill on his Weber, or John Moore on his Kentucky can certainly produce more breath-taking music than 99 percent of the rest of us.  Their choice of instruments is their own, but
 the quality of their music does not elevate the status of those instruments.  When you say "In the mandolin world (not market), only individuals can decide what their "best" is." I agree that we each get to choose the instrument we play and how we feel about it.  But I also see that there are criteria apart from personal preference and "brand preference", that can objectively be examined to differentiate or categorize instruments.  Certainly you can interpret the thread  topic anyway you want.  Is Weber a hi-end mandolin? Is Weber a good/great mandolin?"  Is a Weber in the same category of instrument as...? 
I think market is relatively good way to differentiate instruments.  If there was a table at a Bluegrass Festival with a Gilchrist, a Weber and some others  all priced at $10K each , I have a pretty good idea which one I'd buy.
 :Smile:   :Popcorn:

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## re simmers

I have a Gallatin that I like, but it's not a 'high end' mandolin.   You mentioned $4-6K.   I've ordered a Buckeye, which I'm anxiously waiting for........spring.      I very nearly bought a Daley Standard, which is excellent, too.    I also tried a few used Gibson Bush mandolins in that price range.   All were super.      I've heard some excellent 'high end' Webers, but never got to play one.

Bob

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## kirksdad

I think one thing to consider with Webers, which is partially the reason I decided to custom build with them, is value.  They have very much become a well known brand name in the last few years.  There has to be a reason for that.  When I see what my money has bought in terms of overall construction and sound, I know why.  I don't have the money to spend on a Gilchrist or Dude....so to me Weber, Collings, and Gibson are high end.  This thread in a way reminds of the "debates" we had in school between which was the best; Fender, Gibson... and back then BC Rich or Alembic.  I see in the classifieds each day, people selling their smaller builder mandos for what appears to be far less than what they paid (maybe I'm reading it wrong) I think that is a big consideration in purchasing any mando over 2k-3k (which i consider high end coz I aint rich).  Somebody mentioned in another thread, we are in the Golden Age of Luthiery, I think that's true, not only for the smaller builders but for the stalwarts too.

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AquillaRoseTennant

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## sachmo63

Kirksdad, I agree people are selling stuff way below what they paid. I'm guessing the holiday's have a lot to do but this has been going on for some time.

I was talking to a Mandolin builder today about Webers and he has never seen too many but the Weber name meant a lot and we both agreed it was familiar to a lot of folks. I mean If I bought a Fern today would I get my money out of it next December if I needed to sell it? Probably not but I think the Webers would keep most of they're value. What'dia think?

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## Kevin Briggs

Doc,

Those are some good points too. I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from. Certainly everything has merits in some way. For example, a no name pancake A-style off of eBay is made out of materials that can make tone-like noises. That's usually a positive. My point is that good can only get so good, and at a certain point things become lateral. Our personal taste is what makes something desirable to us.

Any market is a strange thing. For example, some doctors are recommending that people get three flu shots this year, or at least two, or something like that. There is a trend in the flu market that is leading people to feel they need flu shots, and now up to three of them, one or two of which being the H1N1 vaccination. This is all in the face of a long history of flu shots being of questionable value because of the thousands of strains of the flu that exist, nonetheless the tens of thousands of other strains of things that are out there... but people will pay the money for what the masses perceive as being "good." That's not a great parallel to the mandolin market, but it's there.

It's really an impossible task to make specific comments that can legitimately be valid to another individual. Your last statement proves this point. You say you know what you would buy if you went up to a table with a Weber and a Gilchrist. This is probably true for a lot of people, but it's also true for lots of those people that they wouldn't even play the two mandolins before deciding, like you just admitted. That, to me, is a problem with the mandolin market.

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## doc holiday

Kevin.  I do believe that simply, across the span of instruments from a single luthier of high reputation, the instruments would be of higher quality than those coming out of a factory (we'll leave Loars out of this). That has been my experience. In other words, I would certainly buy the Gil (at 1/2 its market value) rather than the Weber (at above it's market value)...without playing them.  I've owned a couple of Webers.  Bruce is a great guy, with a wonderful vision, and Paula Jean drove customer service to new heights.  From my personal experience I can't consider them in the same class as Gilchrists, Nuggets or others mandolins of a certain caliber.  More importantly though, I've enjoyed your video clips.

Sachmo63...if you're concerned about resale within a year's time, I'd suggest the used Yellowstone in the classifieds for 2200 rather than a new one.

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## sgarrity

I think if there was a big mandolin store in every major city with 100 mandolins composed of 20+ brands for people to try out these discussions would be few and far between.  But since there's not, these discussions come up frequently on a site that is all about mandolins.  I've played a lot of exceedingly average Webers, usually the older ones, and I owned one of those.  I've also played some of the newer ones that were really good mandolins.  I'm also very impressed that Weber is so open to customizing for their customers and that they make such a wide range of instruments.  I really wouldn't mind having one of their Octars.  I'd like to play a Vintage Oval A too!

Kevin -- you need to play some more Gils.  They really are spectacular instruments!  I don't think Doc was saying he'd make a buying decision without playing them.  I think he was saying that there is a very high probability that he'd like the Gil over the Weber and I tend to agree as a generality.  

Like Doc said above, I really don't care what y'all are playing.  Buy what you like and can afford and play the heck out of it.  Music, oh yeh, that's why we're all here..... :Wink:

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robert.najlis

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## Kevin Briggs

Men,

Agreed! It's all about the music. I appreciate the discussion, even though my opinion's somewhere on the other side of the fence.  

You're good people.  :Smile:

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## mandolirius

> It's great to see that so many people chimed in on this thread. I think the "vs" tag definitely puts us all in a position to start debating about what's good and what's not. 
> 
> My take on Webers being "good" has always started with the knowledge that Bruce Weber knows what he is doing. History speaks for itself in that regard, starting with the Flatirons and existing most recently with the Resonator Guitars. The build, tone, finish, etc. of Weber acoustic instruments is most definitely intentional. 
> 
> There's this dated idea from some people that goes something like, "Well, they're trying to do a good job up there in Montana, but just can't quite get to the level of the Flatirons." It's absurd. How can the person who was in charge of building the Flatirons for most of the 90s not know how to build a mandolin that is at least equally as "good?" It's not like he forgot what he was doing when he decided not to move to Nashville. On the contrary, the experimenting and upgrading that has occurred at Weber has resulted in incredible instruments, and the most diverse line of acoustic instruments in the industry. 
> 
> The vague criticism of early Webers was mostly a result of two things: 
> 
> 1. An idea to build a different kind of mandolin (how many mandolins built to exacting Loar specs do we actually need?)
> ...


Yep, I've heard all kinds of great-sounding mandolins that didn't cost a fortune. But since so much of what might make a mandolin "high end" based on sound is highly subjective, the monetary scale is the only one that makes sense to me as far as defining the term. I agree that a mandolin doesn't have to be in the high end of price to be a great instrument.

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## Omer

> Yep, I've heard all kinds of great-sounding mandolins that didn't cost a fortune. But since so much of what might make a mandolin "high end" based on sound is highly subjective, the monetary scale is the only one that makes sense to me as far as defining the term. I agree that a mandolin doesn't have to be in the high end of price to be a great instrument.


Hmmm... it's obvious from this thread that Weber needs to triple their prices. :Wink:

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## sachmo63

"Hmmm... it's obvious from this thread that Weber needs to triple their prices"

Hasn't Weber come out with their 25th anniversary model with a price tag of $25k, seem like they already have....

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## Nick Triesch

I've played $20,000 "high end"  Gilchrists that sounded ordinary and a $3500 Weber bitteroot  that sounded like a dream mandolin.  My point is that it just does not matter.  It all comes down to finding the best sounding mandolin that you can at any price.    One of our most respected San Diego repairman summed it all up...."buying a good sounding F type is a ****shoot".     Nick

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## mandotrout777

I'll throw my 0.02 in on this one.  I own a Weber Yellowstone F that was built at the end of 08, beginning of 09 and I love it.  It's the best sounding Weber I've ever played and I play every one my local dealer gets in the shop.  That said, I haven't played any other "high end" mandolins ($4,000.00 is definitely high end to me) and am limited to listening to sound clips on various websites.  I like to listen to clips of different mandolins that are put up by the same shop, like the Mandolin Store or Greg Boyd's, and compare them.  GB has a Gilchrist right now that sounds really good and compared to the Weber and Collings mandos he has I would have to say the Gilchrist has a little more of what I like in a mandolin, but it's also used and presumably has been played, whereas the Webers and Collings are all new. 

My favorite mandolin tone came from Ronnie McCoury when he played his Gilchrist.  I used to think that was mostly just Ronnie's playing, but since he's started playing his Loar, I'd have to say I liked the sound of the Gilchrist better in his hands.  

But... I'm never gonna spend 20 or 25K on a mandolin.  The Weber is so good that there's no justification (for me) to spend the extra 16K to get that "little more" in the Gilchrist.  I would rather keep the Weber and buy a Gibson and a Collings or one from a small builder someday to round out the tone collection than sink that much cash into one instrument.  

My answer to the original question would be that yes, when you get to the 10to 25K and up price range, you're probably getting a little better sound but it's not enough for me to justify ever considering that kind of purchase.  That said, I would be willing to bet that there are Webers out there that would sound better to my ears than a Gilchrist or two.

As far as comparing Webers to the likes of Gibson and Collings (which I feel is more apples to apples), as others have said, I don't think any of them are "better", just different and each is worth the cash if you like the sound.

Sorry for the rambling post.  I think if you find a Weber you like and buy it you'll be more than happy; and they really do open up and sound more full during the first year.

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AquillaRoseTennant

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## George R. Lane

I own two Webers, a custom cedar/maple Gallatin and a Vintage A and I have been lucky enough to play a couple of Loars. I am not saying that my Webers sound as good as a Loar, but when I met John Reischman and he played my Weber and I, his Loar, he made my little Gallatin sound like 20k mandolin, while the Loar in my hands sounded like a 2k mando. I say play as many different ones as you can and buy the one that speaks to you, as you will be the final judge.
ps - the Vintage A's are fantastic.

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AquillaRoseTennant

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## kirksdad

Mandomonium:

Your custom Gallatin with the oval hole and snake head is awesome....maybe the basis for my next Weber Build

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## Rob Gerety

Note well, the Vintage A's are awesome.

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## re simmers

I think you just have to figure your price range, and then play as many affordable mandolins as you can.   Then buy the one you love.........that is slightly more than you thought you could afford.  :Smile: 

You're the one that has to be happy with it.   You'll want to play more, and you'll play better as a result.

It's obvious to me that Webers compare very well to 'other high end mandolins.'

Bob

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## red7flag

The high end Webers I have played are simply different.  Bruce Weber has gone for his own sound.  And even that is too limiting.  I have had three Webers, a mahogany Bitterroot Custom, a Vintage A and an Octar.  Each are excellent instruments, but each sound completely different.  You would not guess the common ancestry by hearing them.  Each approaches its concept with excellent results.  I will say that none that I have played really do that traditional bluegrass thing, but they can do a modern grass sound (Dailey and Vincent) with aces.  Webers are their own concept.

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AquillaRoseTennant

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## Kevin Briggs

Tony,

That's a good way of putting it. I always have thought that Webers were their own "concept," but have never arrived at that word. I agree with you. I think complex is a good word too.

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## Chris Biorkman

I'd be interested to try out one of their Elites. Price wise, they certainly are high-end. They look pretty nice.

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## Pointyhead

Just to throw in my two cents.  I settled on my Weber Gallatin as my first serious mandolin after sampling a slew of others at Mandolin Bros.  I am a new player, but even so I can tell that this instrument's sound holds its own with just about every other mandolin I've come into contact with.  It's got the same kind of rich woody sound I usually think of a cello having.  The only real deficiency I can readily point out is that this mandolin is not the loudest, although some would consider that a good thing trying to practice in an apartment building in NYC.  I have been dying to go back and sample a bunch of other mandolins again to see how my ears have adjusted.  Those Weber vintage As have definitely caught my eye.

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