# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  The true meaning of "amateur"...

## John McGann

The true meaning of "amateur" is a lover- someone who loves something. It has taken on this strange other meaning: "non-professional", but even worse, "unskillful".

There are very few full time professional mandolinists, relative to the number of mandolinists in the world, many of whom play very well. I really dislike the dividing line of "amateur/professional", especially in music, where there are many highly paid entertainers who aren't much as players. There are plenty of highly skilled "non-professionals".

I know it's obvious, but in the true sense of the word, we are all "amateurs"! 

Love.  :Mandosmiley:

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## Tim2723

I think the last time this came up it was a debate on the meaning of 'professional'.  Went on for several pages before Ted locked 'er down, as I recall.  The problem stems from the original premise: the 'true' meaning of the word.  Both amateur and professional have their original meanings, but they have also developed additional definitions over time, all of which are legitimate, 'true' definitions.

Sometimes we use 'amateur' to describe a 'hobbyist', as we often use 'professional' when we really mean 'celebrity'.

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## JEStanek

I always assume proffesional means it is a source of income, either full or part time and amateur means you don't derive income, full or part time from it.  It doesn't imply skill to me or demean the enjoyment I get from either group.  I know TONS of "professionals" who hate their jobs.  I also know plenty of people who overthing the labels they apply to themselves and others.

Me, I'm an amateur, and a lover of many things, even my profession.

Jamie

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## Paul Cowham

Thanks for this John, I completely agree with your sentiments.

To my mind amateur is someone who does it for fun and a professional is someone who does it to earn a living (and I suppose semi professional is someone who earns money from it but isn't their main source of income).

This doesn't mean that all pro's are "better" than all amateurs, but if someone is making a living from it then it's probably safe to assume that they know their stuff. Like you say though, the word amateur can be used to imply that someone isn't very good when there is no reason for this to be the case.

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## Malcolm G.

How about this - and it applies to any and all endeavors - if you make your living from it (and only "it") you're professional.

Nothing to do with ability.

Ya beat me to it, Jamie and Paul.

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## Randi Gormley

I don't know if you can isolate any particular word from its context, especially its emotional context. I know it drives me nuts when someone tries to argue a point by saying "the dictionary defines X as ....." when the question is subtext/context or common usage. That being said, I'd love to hear the story behind what prompted this post. I was having a discussion last night with my husband over whether amateur players are more true to "folk" roots than professionals and your post title caught my eye!

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## 8ch(pl)

In French there is no negative conotation to the word Amateur.  The French word Debutant is used for newcomer, or to suggest a lack of skill.

An amateur is one who does something because he loves to do so, not because he is not proficient.

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## Tim2723

> ...when someone tries to argue a point by saying "the dictionary defines X as ....." when the question is subtext/context or common usage...


Ever notice how often someone will use that argument having never actually looked the word up to find it has multiple meanings?? That drives me nuts too.

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## JeffD

I have been invited to play a gig about an hour and a half away. They are paying about $40.00 for each of us, which is not worth the trip when looked at reasonably. Of course we are going to take the gig. Heck I have driven an hour and a half just to jam. And will again.

So "amateur" means that you love it so much you would do it for free.

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## Tim2723

A laudably phlegmatic attitude, Jeff.  :Wink:

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## William Smith

Me pickin after a 12 pack!!!!!!

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## John Rosett

The money I make from playing music is a significant part of my income, but I wouldn't do it if I didn't love it. If asked, I just say that I'm a musician.

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## mandobassman

This is an interesting topic and one I'm sure will never have a solid resolution.  I have a full time job that does not involve music.  I also play in two bands that work about 3-4 times per month combined.  One of the members of one band is a full time professional musician.  His entire income comes from performing, doing music seminars, on-line teaching, studio recording, and he has his own studio.  The rest of us have other jobs.  However, I still consider the rest of us professionals.  It has nothing to do with skill level, but we are working bands that get paid for each show we do.  Although it is not my main source of income, I still consider myself to be a part-time professional musician.

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## foldedpath

Clearly, someone who gets all their income from music is a professional musician, but I also think of that word as describing an attitude to what you're doing, whether you make most of your income from music, or just play a few minimal paid gigs here and there. 

Do you show up on time for rehearsals and gigs? Do you rehearse the set list, so you're not letting down the other band members? Do you have a friendly attitude and try to keep things running smoothly, regardless of any glitches at a gig? 

All of those are things I think of as being "professional." I've known some people who made a good income from music but lacked that attitude towards the work. And I've known other people who barely break even on gas money and strings, who do have that attitude.

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## John McGann

I am sad to report that there are well paid professional musicians out there who do not particularly love music; or have rather narrow definitions of what constitutes "music". 

I guess my reason for this thread is to celebrate the fact that music has such an important part in our lives- which absolutely transcends cash value. Cherish your connections as a fan and as a player. I think it makes us happier and healthier than we'd be otherwise!

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## Mandolin Mick

Usage determines meaning. Most people use the word amateur to mean somebody who isn't skilled at what they're doing. Oh, the dictionary gives that as *one* of the definitions ...  :Wink:

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## TonyP

Great points all, but as usual John and FP resonate where I'm at. Especially the point FP said about professional attitude. Performance has always been my bane, so I've just naturally had to work hard at overcoming the fear associated with it by over working everything. So working hard on all the other aspects of it has put me at odds with many a band. While all they wanted to do was "play" and have "fun", I was sweating the kickoffs, endings, arrangements, sound equipment and live execution of all the above. 

Ultimately they saw the point that being professional doesn't have to be bad. And the thing that has totally killed the music in me that I rely on to inspire me, is to play with people who just don't care. Those can be pro's that are burned out, and it's just about getting paid, those that think the finer points of music are unnecessary, like tuning and timing. 

I love the idea of amateur zest, with professional attitude.

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## catmandu2

You might be thinking of _dilettante_, 8ch(pl)

Folk music (indeed, all music) is an interesting concept when you think about things in these terms.  Of course it implies many things about societies and cultures, and how they *value* music.  In Western culture, we typically defer to specialists--whom we may generally agree deserve compensation for their services--while families, friends, and neighbors play music for leisure and perhaps other social function such as local ceremonies and celebrations, etc.  Sadly but not surprisingly, local DIY music has become devalued in our society.  I think when folks relenquished these ritualized activites--music and art-making--into the hands of "outisiders" complicated matters.  Even among friends, i think it conveys respect to compensate in some special or commemorative way those who are designated to render the discrete functions, like music for the dance or ceremony.  But symphony orchestras, etc., broadens the discussion into concepts of "high art" and "low art," etc.

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## OldSausage

I think I should be paid to stay amateur.

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## allenhopkins

Distinction between "amateur" and "professional" became a major issue around sports, when the Olympics were closed to "professional" athletes.  There were "amateurs" from the Soviet bloc, _e.g.,_ who were paid full-time wages for playing sports, but were technically "public employees" of one sort or another, with non-sports job titles.  And there were many American "amateurs" who were being given full scholarships, including room, board, and tuition, as "college students," but actually were being compensated for athletic performance.  Others had their "expenses" underwritten to the extent that they were being fully supported.

I would say that if you get paid to play music, that makes you a professional.  Whether it's your major source of support or not.  I've never relied on my music to support me (thank God!), but I surely do consider myself professional, since I have been performing for pay for 40 years.

"Professional attitude" (reliability, competence, etc.) is a whole 'nother thing, IMHO.  There are plenty of amateurs who have that attitude, and, unfortunately, a fair number of "pros" who don't.

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## Fran

Good writing, Allen! I fully agree with you.

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## barney 59

I guess "professional" would mean that you make your living at it. Semi-professional could mean that you are 1st and foremost a musician but you find it necessary to do some other type of work to supplement your income. An amateur I guess is someone that doesn't get paid. Another way to look at it might be to say that if a musician plays/records publicly as a performer as opposed to woodshedding and jamming or noodling around the camp fire that that could be considered professional--- and hang the money, what's money have to do with it anyway?

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## walt33

> The French word Debutant is used for newcomer, or to suggest a lack of skill.


It also means "beginner" in terms of levels of accomplishment (debutant, interme'diaire, avance'). Unfortunately, in American English usage anyway, "amateur" has also come to infer a level of accomplishment.

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## mandocrucian

There is *"Music"* and then there is the *"Music Business"* which are two _completely_ different things which happen to overlap to varying degrees. The terms _amatuer_ and _professional_ can mean different things depending on the context of "music" vs. "music business".

A "professional" (in the music biz) can range from being a "high-level *musician*" down to being a half-step above  "non-musician".  It also encompasses the original "artiste" on one end to the total hack/prostitute on the other. Balance the beach ball on your dome onstage and slap your flippers together on command and get tossed a fish...you're a _"professional"._   (What do you call an "artiste" without a gig?...... A "genius-in-despair".  more-or-less according to R.Crumb!)

The usage of "pro" and "amatuer" is too often determined by the ego of the person using it in order to put themself in the best light, or to put someone else down.  (Yeah, sport...you're playing in dive-bars 4 nights a week (hoo-ray), but that old geezer you are calling an "amatuer" used to play for Hank Thompson before he got sick of the road and quit.) 

_"Can you really play your instrument(s)?"_ is a totally different question from_ "Are you gigging/playing out, and how often?"_

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## Jean Fugal

Brother Dave Gardner sez " A professional is a Cat What Greases His Own Automobile."   Good enough for me!!!

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## Don Stiernberg

Once the great jazz guitarist Jim Hall was awarded a sum from the Nat'l Endowment for the Arts or some such organization in recognition of his brilliant artistry and contributions to jazz and American music. In an interview asking him what he would do with the money,how he felt about the financial difficulty of a life in the arts, etc, he coined a true and beautiful phrase:

                  "THE MUSIC IS IT'S OWN REWARD"

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## bobby bill

> Most people use the word amateur to mean somebody who isn't skilled at what they're doing.


Babe Zaharias won 17 straight women's amateur golf tournaments - a feat that has never been equaled.  Of course, she was playing against amateurs.  But most people would agree she was skilled . . . and loved to play golf.

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## Ivan Kelsall

I always think of amateurs & professionals in this way :- amateurs don't get paid for what they do,professionals do. Of course the word has taken on a different context, & amateur now seems to mean somebody 'not skilled'. Well i've witnessed some very un-skilled 'pro.' performances in my time as i suspect we all have. I've also seen 'amateurs' who can play/ sing like angels. When a person 'turns pro.' at something,we have to remember that first off,they usually have to achieve 'pro.' level at what they're doing before they become a 'pro.'.You simply can't be 'amateurish' one day & a fully accomplished 'pro.' with 'pro.' skills the next day - don't we wish we could ?!,
                       Ivan :Wink:

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## Rick Lindstrom

I've done it both ways.

As a paid "professional" I'm up there on stage working in a smokey bar on Saturday night while everyone else is having fun. Making music on demand whether I feel like it or not.

As an amateur, I'm playing when I feel like it, and always having fun.

In the end, being an amateur won out and I shed myself of the "pro" status. Never looked back either.  :Smile: 

Rick

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## Elliot Luber

I use the term amateur more like a hobbyist. When I want a negative connotation I call someone a hack.  :Smile:

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## Bertram Henze

> I was having a discussion last night with my husband over whether amateur players are more true to "folk" roots than professionals


Before business was invented, everything was done for your own pleasure and living at the same time, because that's all you had. Without food you'd die of hunger, without music you'd die of depression. Therefore, I'll say, at the root end of folks' culture the words amateur and professional have no meaning. Was Johnny Appleseed an amateur or a professional?
Having fun was a serious business at the time (now is that an oxymoron?)

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## wildpikr

> I am sad to report that there are well paid professional musicians out there who do not particularly love music; or have rather narrow definitions of what constitutes "music". 
> 
> I guess my reason for this thread is to celebrate the fact that music has such an important part in our lives- which absolutely transcends cash value. Cherish your connections as a fan and as a player. I think it makes us happier and healthier than we'd be otherwise!



Well said!  The word 'aficionado' comes to mind... :Coffee:

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## Steve Ostrander

I have been paid for playing, sometimes well, sometimes for tips, sometimes I do it for free. (One time I was paid with produce at a farm market)  

I don't consider myself a professional, because I don't make my living playing, and becasue I haven't formally studied music. If amateur means someone who plays because they love it, then I am the world's rankest amateur.

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## 250sc

When I earned 100% of my income from playing music (17 years) I often hated the music I played but had to take any job that was offered. On the other hand I learned a lot about music from some of those songs I didn't particulary like. 

Now I only play what I like and in todays market couldn't earn a living anymore as a musician.

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## Bertram Henze

> Now I only play what I like and in todays market couldn't earn a living anymore as a musician.


That points to a nice unheard-of definition of an amateur: someone who still has a choice.  :Smile:

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## 250sc

Good point Bertram. I have to say that I love playing more now than ever. In my living room I can take any musical path that catches my interest and never get sick anymore. (no smoky environments and less than clean bar glasses)

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## jim simpson

Could the difference be a Pro has to claim the income on one's tax form?

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## JEStanek

Ask Mr. Nelson about that  :Wink: 

Jamie

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## 250sc

In a previous thread about this, a couple years ago I stated that when the IRS recognizes you as a professional musician, you're a professional musician. Other people in the thread didn't agree. lol

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## John McGann

The only thing money and music have in common is the letter m at the start of each word.

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## catmandu2

I don't think that money--or compensation--is the problem.  As cited previously, "amateur" musicians are also often recognized and compensated in all manner of commerce including monetary.  There is always some discrepancy and ambiguity in defining roles and terms.

Rather, the problem, I believe, is in the mechanisms which govern our perceptions -- society's valuation, perception, and experience of music *in general*; that we have cultivated notions of "high art"--and included in this category some forms of musical expression--and ascribed to it value in recognized form (viz., monetary): "professional" music, often in the form of popular consumable media.  This is how a consumptive society such as ours works, too often.  It is abstracted from instrinsic meaning and value, and relies instead upon unrelated external references for these (e.g., marketing mechanisms).

Sorting terms is not all that challenging.  But what is "problematic" (and perhaps unsettling) is how society comes to these terms.

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## David Rambo

I guess that I kind of followed the sports concept in that professional sports, as opposed to amateur sports, are those in which athletes receive payment for their performance.  I was in high school when I first got paid for playing at a dance, and from then on considered myself a professional musician.  (I certainly wasn't going to get paid for my basketball and baseball skills, which I was playing at the same time.) 
The years I was with a big band, I declared all income on my taxes, and while it wasn't my primary income, it was several thousand per year, and bought me some rather expensive trumpets, trombones, cornets, and fluegelhorns.  At least one of them later "became" a mandolin.  The IRS certainly considered that I was a "professional" musician, and dug very carefully into my income and my expenses.  
I agree that the lines have been blured over time, and even the Olympics have changed their rules on "professionals."  
I think we will all have our own personal views on what and who is a "professional," and will have to "agree to disagree."

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## mandroid

...  anyhow when the bar tab is greater than the tip jar proceeds , 
it's what is called "normal"  ...   :Whistling:

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## OldSausage

He's playing his songs down in Nashville
He's picking for tips in a bar
He's broke and all alone, but he ain't ready to come home
Well he wants to be a bluegrass pickin star

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## P.D. Kirby

I guess I'm a Professional Amateur, we play out a few times a month and get paid to play poorly. Actually we get paid to play, we just happen to play poorly.

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## JeffD

> I guess my reason for this thread is to celebrate the fact that music has such an important part in our lives- which absolutely transcends cash value. Cherish your connections as a fan and as a player. !


My brother tells me I am healthier playing music. His comment was: "Heck, you can't fish all the time."

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## JeffD

> I was having a discussion last night with my husband over whether amateur players are more true to "folk" roots than professionals and your post title caught my eye!


There is a way that "professionalism" changes things. I have an acquaintence who is a well known fiddler, doing rather well as a full time professional musician. Every jam and party he goes to is, for him, a marketing opportunity, to either sell CDs or guide traffic to his website, or to get booked at some new venue. I suppose that is part of the job, but when do you just kick back and pick a little.

He plays achingly well, but he is a bit like the salesman for whom every friend is a client, and every client is a friend.

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## allenhopkins

> ...I was having a discussion last night with my husband over whether amateur players are more true to "folk" roots than professionals...


The question of whether folk music, no matter how you define it, is limited to non-professional music played for individual enjoyment and informal social events, or whether it includes highly-paid professionals who sell large numbers of recordings and play for big crowds, is an ongoing issue.

Many of the "folk" musicians who were "discovered" playing on back porches and small-town square dances, were as "professional" as they could get, considering the limitations of the market for which they performed.  They played local dances and concerts, had programs on regional radio stations, entered contests and sought opportunities to make recordings.  The fact that they were also farmers, millworkers, or salesmen/women was due to the fact that it's always been hard to support a decent lifestyle playing music, for the average musician.

_Q:  What's the difference between a folk musician and a large pizza?
A:  A large pizza can feed a family of four..._

It's instructive to read bios of old-time, blues and bluegrass musicians, some of them quite well-known, who left performing for years to work as auto mechanics or coal miners, because those were dependable sources of income, and trends and fads in the music "industry" had cut back their performing.

Still, I don't think the question of whether one is entirely supported by music earnings, really is the definition of "amateur" vs. "professional."  I get most of my income from civil service retirement and Social Security, but I make five figures of music revenue, declare it on my taxes, take strings and picks, mileage and the occasional new instrument, as business expense, and get around 150-175 gigs a year.  So still consider myself "professional."

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## catmandu2

> _Q:  What's the difference between a folk musician and a large pizza?
> A:  A large pizza can feed a family of four..._


The same scenario is also used for jazz musicians (have you heard the one about the ------ jazz musician?; he was in it for the money...), ad infinitum.

As has been mentioned, there are many factors determining whether or not one is paid regularly, and typically have as much or more to do with one's marketing wherewithal...which reveals that "professionalism" involves more than musical chops.  (The same is often true of other vocational fields--as complaints are often heard from graduates of various college professional training programs that, "they didn't teach me how to operate a business...")

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## Mark Robertson-Tessi

> It's instructive to read bios of old-time, blues and bluegrass musicians, some of them quite well-known, who left performing for years to work as auto mechanics or coal miners, because those were dependable sources of income, and trends and fads in the music "industry" had cut back their performing.


Jazz too.  Oscar Moore went from playing on most of Nat King Cole's early albums to leaving music behind and laying bricks for his last few decades of life.   

Cheers
MRT

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## Paul Cowham

Same is true of many things, football (soccer in the us) has changed dramatically.

In the 50's and maybe into the 60's, according to my dad, football players of top league tides (division 1) sometimes got the tram to the game with the fans and usually had somekind of job (usually manual) to earn money. These days, players for the same clubs earn more than 99% of us earn in a year in a week and are on the same "celebrity" rank as pop stars etc

Lots of football fans/players still love the game for what it is in the same way musicians and music lovers love music but probably not good for any of these things to be too dominated by money..

Amnyhow, a quick joke, 

Q what do you call a folk musician without a girlfriend?
A homeless..

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## David Rambo

Didn't Paul Hornung say that he took a pay cut when he went from college football to pro football?

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## Greg H.

I think this difference becomes more and more meaningless. I know a number of people who have to keep multiple jobs in order to keep food on the table. If one is a painter and a janitor does one become an amatuer in both because neither can keep the roof over the family's head. So.....In my mind one is a professional musician if one is being paid to play music. One is an amateur only if one is never expecting to be paid (or, for that matter, to be rembursed in some manner for your work at playing music--the fact that it's pure fun for most of us doesn't keeping it from being work there).

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

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## Grommet

Well,
I think there are varied definitions to most terms...and each can be of value in thoughtful discussion. Likewise each different defintion can provide a different perspective to our understanding. With that in mind, I would remind folk that once upon a time professional vocations were once though to consist only of the clergy, medicine, law, and academia. Why these? The deciding criterion was that only vocations who are self-regulating were considered true professions. A bakers performance is judged by each consumer of his goods. A physicians performance will be reviewed by one or more of his peers. These vocations have there own powerful governing bodies (like the AMA) to maintain the monopoly of control. By this admittedly outdated definition there have never been any professional bull riders, massueses, bass fishermen, etc. Musicians too can find their performance judged by any listener. My point is not to tout this victorian viewpoint, but to suggest that there are enough defintions and criteria as to render the distinction of little value in todays world. I've been listening to music long enough to know that you can't always tell a pro by listening, or by looking at their pay stub.  Professional attitudes and behaviour are more much modern constructs and can be applied/expected in any vocation or avocation(with disparite results).

Scott

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## Bill Snyder

Well I guess that I am have a different outlook. I have always that in things like music, art and photography that the *best* amateurs can frequently go head to head with the pros.

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## Bertram Henze

> having a discussion last night with my husband over whether amateur players are more true to "folk" roots than professionals


Just this minute I read page 1 of the O'Neill's Collection:




> To the multitude of nonprofessional musicians of the Gaelic and English speaking races all over the world, who enjoy and cherish the Melodies of Ireland, this work is respectfully Dedicated. _Francis O'Neill_


There, at least, you have the view of the Chicago police  :Grin:

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## allenhopkins

Finally decided that I've achieved "professional" status:

Played a harvest festival today at Helmer Nature Center in Irondequoit.  When I finished up, went to talk to Karen Mazzola, the center director, about payment.  "Did you get the purchase order?" she asked.

"Sure did," I said.  "Do you need an invoice?"

"Yes," she said.  "You can give me one today, or send it to me."

"No problem," I said.  "I carry a pad of invoices in my gig bag.  I'll just go write it up in my car and bring it to you."

Carrying a pad of invoices around to music gigs?  If that ain't "professional," don't know what is...

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## catmandu2

Well I don't know...maybe, it's when you accept credit cards   :Wink:

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## Dale Ludewig

Allen, I think you've met the mark.  By Georgie (or however it's spelled).!  No one here needs to go into details, but that is the most remarkable thing I've heard of.  Were you playing for a corporate gig where they hadn't yet heard of purchase orders and invoices and who knows what else before you can actually do the work?  Why don't they just pay you out of petty cash?

I now believe you must be a professional.  If you're not, come over near me, into Chicago, and I'll bet we can find some people who can empathize.  Or something like it.

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## Steve Davis

John, you're a pro, but I, (even though I get paid from time to time to play music,) am an amateur. (Music lover)  I play more benefits than paying gigs.

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## allenhopkins

> ...Were you playing for a corporate gig where they hadn't yet heard of purchase orders and invoices and who knows what else before you can actually do the work?  Why don't they just pay you out of petty cash?  I now believe you must be a professional.  If you're not, come over near me, into Chicago, and I'll bet we can find some people who can empathize.  Or something like it.


Well, the nature center where I was playing is run by a school district, and they won't pay me out of petty cash -- anyway, I was getting the "big buxx" ($100) for my stint, probably exceeding their petty cash limit.  Nah, to get paid for a couple hours at the harvest festival, I had to file a W-9 to give them my SSN, they had to send me a purchase order for the job, and I had to give them an invoice.  If I get near the minimum amount for IRS reporting, they'll send me a W-2 or a 1090 or something, and of course I'll declare it on my taxes -- which I do anyway.

Before I retired I did financial and personnel administration for the City of Rochester, so I have a bureaucrat's perspective on how business gets handled by public entities.  When I played bars, the bartender scooped a wad of cash out of the register; when I play farmers' markets or coffeehouses, there's a jar or a bucket for tips (you get better non-monetary compensation at farmers' markets; last one I played, I got three suppers' worth of pizza and calzones).  When I play private parties, usually it's a personal check; when I play seniors' facilities, "corporate" sends me a check a week later; and when I play for recreation bureaus and schools, there are purchase orders and invoices.  When I play for some towns, cities and libraries, there's an actual contract to sign.

"Pro" or "amateur," one has to deal with the financial system, if one's getting paid at all.  Do "amateurs" get paid, at all?  Yeah, they do, lots of times.  And don't we all get "paid" by the experience of just playing?

_Getting paid to play music, is like getting paid to eat ice cream_ -- Bob McQuillen.

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## Bertram Henze

> Do "amateurs" get paid, at all?  Yeah, they do, lots of times.  And don't we all get "paid" by the experience of just playing?


Experience or joy of playing might seem immaterial and abstract to some, but when you think of money being just an emotional dream about the value of green pieces of paper or numbers at NYSE, it is not so bad.

Maybe all that separates pros and amateurs is the currency they get paid in. 

And if the financial system breaks down (wouldn't be the first time), pros will be the ones who get paid in cigarettes or farm products, while amateurs are already often paid in coffee or beer today and are thereby tomorrow's pros.

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## GRW3

I've been mulling this over and, so rather than add something erudite, I thought it time to add another broad generalization:

Professional Musician: Plays what other people want to hear

Amatuer Musician: Plays what they want to hear

 :Smile:

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## catmandu2

Maybe...the definition of "pro" is being willing to drive out of town to play the same music with the same folks, as one could in their own living room.  As we don't actually get paid to _eat_ the ice cream, but rather--to refrigerate it, spoon it out when it's really hard, etc.   :Wink: 

Yes, there is really the aspect of discipline, commitment, etc.  Not everyone wants to play the tunes they play night after night, in some less than optimal venues, perhaps even cohabitating with some folks we may not always relish being around.  Not that Paul McCartney, for example, has been subject to less than optimal playing conditions lately, but, I can imagine that he may have tired of playing, say, "Maybe I'm Amazed" (maybe about 30 years ago?).  I guess if the money's good, one doesn't mind so much.

Or, perhaps for most of us, it's not the money (of course), but a desire to share.  In which case, one's tolerance for uniformity may be lowered.  Frankly, I think one of the more significant factors of a "pro mentality" is in approach--how one deals with the entire milieu--the myriad variables of being "on the road."  Pay just happens to correspond with this, usually, but is itself not the determining factor, IMO.

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## re simmers

Great thread.   Yes, music really is such a gift that it is, of its self, more valuable than money.   I guess I take it for granted because my daily life is so consumed with listening, playing, reading and discussing music. 

I never thought of carrying invoices.  Maybe I will do that.   

I guess we are all amateur.........'cept ol' Bill.    That could be a song!  :Smile: 

Here's a link to a bio of Frank Feather, one of the finest wood carvers of all time.   Mr. Feather, by anyone's definition was a professional.    But his life didn't refelect that........not in most people's terms.     It's not music, but this is worth reading:
http://www.greencastlemuseum.org/Spe...nk_feather.htm

Bob

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## Dale Ludewig

I've been mulling this over a bit more.  Is there a difference in perception as to the meaning of pro vs. amateur determined by if, in our discussion, one is a musician or not?  I think there must be.  And for that matter, there's a bunch of heavy hitting players that are admired by us and certainly are considered professionals.  Some of the best.  Lots of them have day jobs.

Although perhaps not directly related to this, but I know that the groups I play with get paid, sometimes better than others.  We'll play for nothing on occasion.  We'll play for fun in a public setting.  We will not play when asked to do it for "exposure".  For that matter, I don't build cabinets after 35+ years of doing it for "exposure".   :Smile:

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## Paul Cowham

I've just remembered a saying which is relevant to this topic which is:

Q:  What's the difference between an amateur and a pro?
A:  An amateur practices untill they can get it right and a pro practices untill they can't get it wrong

Now I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with this, afterall it's clear that some "amateurs" would fall into the second of those definitions (and vice versa). And, as several people have said - anyone who plays music for fun sometimes are amateurs and this would (hopefully) include most pros. Nonetheless, it's quite an interesting and potentially illuminating little expression...

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## allenhopkins

I think defining "amateur" and "professional" in terms of *levels of competence* is missing the point.  Given the fact that music is not a "profession" in the sense that medicine, law, or engineering is -- requiring a diploma, attainment of generally accepted standards, passage of an examination, certification by a licensing organization -- it seems to me that the distinction is related to the similar distinction in sports: does one do it for pay (primarily), or as a (generally) "volunteer" avocation/hobby/pastime?

Remember Twain's distinction between work and play:  _Work consists of whatever a body is obliged to do, and play consists of whatever a body is not obliged to do._  (From _Tom Sawyer,_ re: whitewashing the fence.)  If we are "obliged" to take our mandolins and go perform, because we're getting paid to do it and have to act like "professionals," that's different from just doing it because we feel like it -- as I did when I played for three-plus hours tonight at a country/bluegrass jam down in Allen's (no relation) Hill.

Lots of overlap: amateurs can get paid a bit sometimes, pros take "freebies" for a variety of reasons, but to me the basic distinction is whether it's a *job,* or just "for fun."

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