# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  Is it possible to get an "in tune" mandolin?

## Wupeide

Hi all!  

I am new to this site and new to the mandolin. I've been trying to learn for about a year, more seriously of the past few months. I used to play violin and viola when I was young, played them quite seriously for a few years.  So when it comes to intonation, I am very picky. 

I have purchased 4 mandolins (one was a gift).  The first was a A-style cheap mandolin that I bought online in China (where I am currently living).  It looked nice but was not playable, because the intonation was totally off. Next I took a trip to Beijing and bought a classical style mandolin which was kind of playable, but still has intonation problems. 

I find that the A string always has the most noticeable problems - going from A to B is always painful, because the B is always sharp - and this kills the G chord, at least for me. (every mandolin that I have played on has had this problem). 

Next I had a friend ship a 4 string Epiphone Mandobird - a gift from a friend - it was absolutely, completely unplayable!  On the back it a sticker which says 100& inspected and set up in the USA by E - what a disgrace!!!! And people wonder why customers go for overseas products!

Needless to say I was getting very disappointed and figured that my problem was my price range and the fact that I was buy factory made instruments. So I searched for and found a maker in the US and bought a beautiful looking 4-string electric mandolin for $1,350 (for now I will leave his name out of this). :Laughing:  

This new mandolin is better than all the previous instruments I have played... However, it still has problems.  The strings bind in the nut so that it's impossible to tune (a problem that I am probably going to be able to solve), the G string goes a little flat as you move up the scale and as usual the B on the A string is slightly sharp - though closer this time than it has been on previous instruments. :Crying:  

Today I feel like giving up on the mandolin!  Is it not possible to get one with accurate intonation, without spending 10K? Should give up and just start playing guitar instead? 

Below are images of the instruments that I bought and tried... I have not included pics of the most recent one since I am hoping to resolve the issues somehow, and I don't want to hurt someone's business... Well that's not exactly true, I would like to hurt Epiphone's business, if possible.
I

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## sunburst

Because they have frets, no mandolins can be played as "in tune" as violin or viola, but they can be pretty good, considering the frets are set up for equal temperament. Any of the mandolins you have had could/can be set up to play pretty well in tune, assuming the frets are accurately placed (a rather big assumption, sometimes). Someone has to set the instrument up, including adjusting the nut and bridge, in order for it to play in tune. Almost any instrument that has been shipped a long distance, including $10000 ones, perhaps, may need to have the set up and intonation adjusted.
If you have a particularly good ear (can hear whether notes are in tune to tolerances much less than 3 cents), and you are used to instruments without frets, you'll probably have to get used to fretted instruments and they're intonation "personalities".

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## JeffD

I have experienced some of those things with my mandolins, and had them set up to solve the problem(s). A good set up is essential.

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## Schlegel

These all sound like simple set-up issues, not quality of construction.  A tight nut just needs the slot slightly enlarged, or even just some graphite lube might do the trick.  Likely a saddle adjustment (if you have a movable saddle) will fix the G intonation easily.  Fret 1 being sharp just means the strings are high at the nut.  These are all easy for an experienced person to take care of, and are the kind of thing one always sees on new instruments.  I've never bought a new mandolin that didn't need a bit of set-up work.  

If you are picky about intonation a factory set-up is never going to be good enough on mandolins. You will have to fine-tune the setup yourself, or use a real luthier with experience of mandolin set-ups, i.e., not just a random guitar guy.

I do my own set-ups, mostly.  My Mandobird plays exactly in tune after I made a new nut and adjusted the saddles. Your new mando sounds like it just needs a slight saddle adjustment and a little filing at a slot.  Not a big deal.

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## Tom Wright

As a violin/viola player that also played guitar, I also found getting good results from my mandolins an issue at first. One thing is that we fiddlers like the whole step B or F# to produce a sweet 6th interval to the string below. Unfortunately, I think you will always feel this note is slightly harsh, since it must be tempered--you can't easily adjust for playing the B/open E 4th. Another issue for me is that it took time to get comfortable with the ever-so-slightly-narrow tempered 5ths needed. (We usually tune our bowed 5ths perfect.) Your electric bridge has separately adjustable pieces, I presume, so either go to a thicker G or move the G bridge piece closer to the neck so it doesn't play flat up the fingerboard.

That said, it is possible you squeeze too hard, but more likely, I think, is the nut being a little high. It is a safe policy to set it up a little high, (since too low is unplayable, and it will wear over time). This will manifest as the first few frets seeming to play sharp, when open strings and 12th fret tests are in tune. I found my electric very fussy about those first frets, and spent some time making a nut that was suited to my heavy handed style, i.e. as low as possible. Uneven height of pairs can make it hard to get play clean unisons on double-course instruments.

You can go to a shop and spend a session there while the repair guy files the slots and you test them. Or you can buy some slotting files of appropriate size and do it yourself. If you go too far, the nut can be shimmed up with a piece of paper. I think mandolin is much less forgiving of a high nut than guitar, since the angle produced by depressing the string is much steeper with the short distance to the first frets. This means the pitch will change noticeably from fretting deflection. So you need the lowest possible nut height.

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## MikeEdgerton

Mandolin is Italian for "out of tune".

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Paul Hostetter

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## almeriastrings

Yes, it is a setup issue, as others have said. Some (most?) cheap mandolins are very, very badly setup when you buy them. They can need quite a lot of work. Even 'serious' expensive instruments are going to need at least some adjustment to get them to play right, and comfortably. The nut is usually the main area that needs work - but the bridge can also be "off". It may not be in exactly the right place, or indeed, it can be badly made and of poor quality (a very common problem on many mandolins). Finally, the frets may not be crowned to perfection... all of these can affect intonation - but they can all be fixed. I suspect your difficulty is going to be finding a setup person who _really_ understands mandolins.. unfortunately, most guitar people don't.

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Paul Statman

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## Wupeide

Thanks to everybody for the information. It seems to me that the answer to my question is - no, you can't buy a 'new mandolin' and expect to be perfectly in tune.  I have to say that is pretty sad, since I am living in China and there is nobody anywhere near me who adjust an instrument. 

I don't really understand the temperament issue.  If I play a G chord, for example, the B shouldn't noticeably sharp should it?

Thanks again guys!

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## greg_tsam

> ...I am living in China and there is nobody anywhere near me who adjust an instrument.


You could try learning how to do it yourself.  I was amazed at how much info there is floating around.  Try searching this forum and  www.frets.com

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## almeriastrings

That is what I would do. Practice on as many cheap instruments as possible to start with. Your confidence and skills will improve.

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## Fretbear

We feel your pain, it is a right of passage with this instrument, and anyone that has played one for any length of time will have dealt with this issue. First of all, not every mandolin can be tuned or will stay in tune, set-up or not; some are just junk and always will be. This is one area where they differ from guitars, as while there may be lots of cheap guitars, there are very few guitars that will simply not be able to be tuned up. Mandolins can be extremely unforgiving, and I personally believe that the first, last and most important obstacle to be overcome in playing the instrument is to be able to reliably get it and have it stay in tune, as there is little else one can do without first mastering that. Keep trying and don't give up.

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## journeybear

In a word - no. Might as well give up right now and cut your losses. Or when you are dissatisfied with your new electric, let me know. I'll be happy to take if off your hands at no charge.  :Wink: 

But I understand about the MandoBird. I have two of them (thought I could convert one to mandola), and yes, the intonation could be better. I have just about maxed out the set screws on the bridges to get close to in tune. Fortunately, I play a lot of rock and blues and such so I get to bend notes a lot, so there is some leeway for me. But it has been getting more and more unsatisfactory, and my 95 year old Gibson A sounds delightful in comparison to this, despite all the modern technological advances made in the interim. Supposedly. My solution is the same as yours - buying another one handmade by a small builder. I assume the extra investment is going toward (among other things) the time it takes for a knowledgeable craftsman to ensure the production of a fine and fit instrument.

One would like to think standardized measurements for correct fret placement would be available to all manufacturer, and they could be incorporated into even mass-produced instruments. It seems odd that so many MandoBirds could be produced without this key factor being addressed. But a lot of people do complain about this, and even though I have been managing with mine, my audiences at bars and clubs tend to be less discerning than, say, classical ones. Also, there is the "wow" factor associated with hearing an electric mandolin for the first time. I am probably getting away with a bit, as people are unfamiliar with the instrument and don't know what it's supposed to sound like. If they only knew ...  :Whistling:

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## billkilpatrick

> Mandolin is Italian for "out of tune".


ha!

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## Shelagh Moore

No... due to the temperament issues with frets on what is a very short-scale instrument. But, with a good setup, it is possible to get an almost in-tune instrument (those with a very fine ear will still be able to detect slight intonation anomalies as John Hamlett said above). It also saddens me that some very expensive factory-made instruments (and a few luthier-made ones as well) are set free without due care and attention to a good setup, even bearing in mind people will have individual preferences fore action and string type.

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Paul Statman

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## Pete Summers

> Because they have frets, no mandolins can be played as "in tune" as violin or viola, but they can be pretty good, considering the frets are set up for equal temperament. Any of the mandolins you have had could/can be set up to play pretty well in tune, assuming the frets are accurately placed (a rather big assumption, sometimes). Someone has to set the instrument up, including adjusting the nut and bridge, in order for it to play in tune. Almost any instrument that has been shipped a long distance, including $10000 ones, perhaps, may need to have the set up and intonation adjusted.
> If you have a particularly good ear (can hear whether notes are in tune to tolerances much less than 3 cents), and you are used to instruments without frets, you'll probably have to get used to fretted instruments and they're intonation "personalities".


Exactly so. There is no such thing as perfect intonation on any instrument of fixed pitch due to the requirement of the Tempered scale in Western music. That includes mandolins, banjos, guitars, pianos, organs, harmonicas, accordions, etc. - and any other instrument with "keys" or frets. 

Unless you go screaming into the night every time you hear a piano, however, you should have no trouble adjusting to the imperfections of mandolin intonation.

That having been said, with mandolins the issue is set-up, set-up, set-up - and for good measure, set-up.
 :Mandosmiley:

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Paul Statman

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## sunburst

> One would like to think standardized measurements for correct fret placement would be available to all manufacturer, and they could be incorporated into even mass-produced instruments...


One would think that, wouldn't one?
Early in my mandolin building adventures, I bought slotted fretboards from several different suppliers (well known ones), and one day, just out of curiosity, I held two of them side by side to check that the fret slots were all the same. You guessed it, hardly any two were the same. That's when I made my own fret slot cutting jig and I've been using it ever since.
Now there are "numerically controlled" (CNC) machines sitting around everywhere, and yes, every manufacturer could have accurately cut fingerboards, but some of them my have old stock 'boards, some may have their own (caveman era) systems, some may be buying from suppliers who haven't upgraded to contemporary standards... Things can be slow to change in manufacturing, and when changes don't directly affect the bottom line, well, there's just not much incentive up there in the top office.
Be that as it may, frets are a compromise anyway. Even when correctly placed mathematically, the best we can hope for is equal temperament and that means some notes are "wrong". Add to that different string sets, string age and condition, differences in action height, and just the variation in how strings behave at different lengths and there are enough errors at play that they will negate some surprisingly large fret placement errors. 
Mt best efforts over three sessions with a customer's guitar, a customer who plays in a duo with his violin playing wife (both Berkley grads with excellent ears), in DADGAD tuning, on a very well built guitar, was every string within 3 cents at each fret. That was as close as it was going to get because "correcting" any note from there was going to make another note worse. I did similar things to two of his other guitars and they couldn't be gotten that close.
It's a fact; we can't get fretted instruments in tune, but close is good enough.

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## Wupeide

Once again - thanks to everyone.  I played for about half an hour tonight and the strings stayed in tune - so I guess I have just about sorted the nut binding issue. (it used to go out of tune in about 30 seconds) I also filed the nut slightly under the A and that seems to have helped, possibly.  I think I may be able to live with it as it is now... I will try to play it for a few more weeks... and see if I can get used to it. To be sure, it's close to in tune.

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## Jim Ferguson

Two words: "SET UP"....:-)
There is no way you are going to purchase a new or used mando & have it shipped to you & have it be in tune. Simply not going to happen.  The only way you are going to buy a new or used mando in tune is if you buy one directly at the music store where it has been set up before being placed out on the floor.
I am willing to bet that your mando issues all stem from a lack of or poor set up.  A good set up can make even the least expensive (I hate the word cheap) mando playable & sound somewhat decent.
Have your mando set up & you'll be the happier for it.
Peace,

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## allenhopkins

> ...Next I had a friend ship a 4 string Epiphone Mandobird - a gift from a friend - it was absolutely, completely unplayable!  On the back it a sticker which says 100& inspected and set up in the USA by E - what a disgrace!!!! And people wonder why customers go for overseas products!...


Regardless of what the sticker said, Mandobirds are Chinese-made.  One could speculate how intensive and lengthy the "inspection and set-up" provided was, once the instrument came off the boat from Asia -- only to be sent back there to you!

There are a variety of "tweaks" that can address intonation problems: bridge height, nut height, bridge location, bridge saddle compensation, adjustment of string gauges, fret height, and so forth.  You might be surprised at the accessibility of experienced instrument-tech skills in China, which produces millions of fretted instruments annually.  True, most destined for export, but I'd wager enough get sold "in country" to justify instrument repair and set-up shops there.

And, as pointed out above, any fret layout pattern involves some compromise, unless you're building a strictly diatonic instrument.  Situation's exacerbated by the mandolin's short scale.  I'd predict you will get somewhat "used to it," but you'll never get the intonation exactitude you can achieve with a fretless instrument.

On the other hand, it won't sound as *bad* as a badly-fingered violin, so there's a silver lining...

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## Ben Milne

> Regardless of what the sticker said, Mandobirds are Chinese-made.  .


Quite a few are from Indonesia. 

But yeh.

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## journeybear

From my small sample set - one was made in China, the other Indonesia. The one I use for gigs is the Indonesian one - no real reason, just the first one I got, and as it's the one with the string holes through the body slightly out of line with the bridge plate, not the better one. But they were both 100% inspected and set-up in the USA, both by #7 - who has some 'splainin' to do, regarding the aforementioned.  :Mad: 

But yeah ...  :Wink:

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## allenhopkins

Hypotheses:

1. "Inspector #7" does nothing but take Mandobirds out of shipping boxes, attach "Inspected and set-up in the USA" stickers to them, and put them in other shipping boxes.

2. "Inspector #7" may in fact be a robot.

3. "Inspector #7" may be a robot located in Jakarta or Shanghai, and the Mandobirds sold in Asia, never leave Asia.

4. _All_ inspectors -- assuming there are more than one -- are "#7", just as all the customer service reps in Bangalore are named "Bob."

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Terry Allan Hall

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## Jake Wildwood

> Hypotheses:
> 
> 1. "Inspector #7" does nothing but take Mandobirds out of shipping boxes, attach "Inspected and set-up in the USA" stickers to them, and put them in other shipping boxes.
> 
> 2. "Inspector #7" may in fact be a robot.
> 
> 3. "Inspector #7" may be a robot located in Jakarta or Shanghai, and the Mandobirds sold in Asia, never leave Asia.
> 
> 4. _All_ inspectors -- assuming there are more than one -- are "#7", just as all the customer service reps in Bangalore are named "Bob."


Very true.

Also true: 95% of all setup problems with Asian-made instruments could be solved very quickly with a replacement of the standard nut with a nut + zero-fret that matches the height of all the other frets, rather than the usual whopper makers pop in there. Then we wouldn't have zillions of guitars, ukes, mandos, etc. flooding the market causing folks to wince when they try to play ANYTHING.

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Terry Allan Hall

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## Fretbear

> 95% of all setup problems with Asian-made instruments could be solved very quickly with a replacement of the standard nut with a nut + zero-fret that matches the height of all the other frets, rather than the usual whopper makers pop in there.


The first thing people can do if they start hearing something strange going on with a new instrument (a guitar or mandolin) is to try a capo at the first fret. If it suddenly starts to play perfectly everywhere, it is because you have taken the offending nut out of the equation. I have spend days (very slowly!) working a new guitar nut to be exactly where I want it, just so that it will play in open position (almost) the way it already plays capoed at any other fret, which is a test for how a properly set-up nut should sound and feel. With the mandolin, which is generally played without a capo (let's not go there!) it is even more critical.

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## Rob Meldrum

Short answer. Email me at rob.meldrum@gmail.com for a free ebook on how to set up a mandolin. in two hours you'll have a vastly improved instrument.  All of the issues you mentioned are common to factory - shipped instruments.  Rob

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Dragonfly Dreamer

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## Adam Sweet

Mandolins are hard to tune.  It takes practice.

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Earthwood

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## narrick

i think i'm playing slightly out of tune most of the time with my mandolin... but i just don't allow that to be a problem, i tune all the times needed, and as i play most of the time in the higher frets, the intonation problems aren't so bad...

it happens to me all the time: i find a problem in my instrument and later (maybe weeks or months later) i find the solution to overcome it... be it adjusting it or just playing a difficult part in a different way. i think it is all part of the learning process.

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## Barry Wilson

I'm a robster fanboy :P ... seriously though, I learned a great deal about setup and he provides links to frets.com etc for more learning. 

and my mandobird plays great in tune and intonation, I still need to change the pickup though, I think that is it's biggest downfall. and tuning always go below the note and tune up to it, things stay in tune better then.

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## mandroid

as previously observed: 8 strings increases the odds that one of them may be in tune..

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## Charlieshafer

> as previously observed: 8 strings increases the odds that one of them may be in tune..


 :Smile:  at least one, maybe.

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## FatBear

> Likely a saddle adjustment (if you have a movable saddle)


What is the saddle?

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## Schlegel

> What is the saddle?


Part of the bridge, on an electric instrument, it's the little wedge or barrel nut that the string runs over. generally these are riding on a screw so the exact vibrating length of the string can be changed easily, and are propped up by a pair of small screws for adjusting the height.  Here's an example from a J Bovier.  (I have an EMC5, they definitely are one of the better factory electric mandolins, BTW.)

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## FatBear

Ah, that explains why I didn't know about it.  My mandolin is about the simplest acoustic one you can get.  :-)

Thanks!

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## Richard Eskite

You know what they say, a mandolin player spends half his life tuning and the other half playing out of tune...

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## Jim

> Ah, that explains why I didn't know about it. My mandolin is about the simplest acoustic one you can get. :-)


Likely it has a saddle/bridge that can be moved to adjust intonation and action.

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## FatBear

> You know what they say, a mandolin player spends half his life tuning and the other half playing out of tune...


I'm not particular about C on my A string sounding exactly like C on the piano.  I don't play with a piano, or with a band, just by myself in my living room.  But I sure would like C on both A strings to sound the same as each other.  When they are not tuned alike it just makes my skin crawl.

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## FatBear

> Likely it has a saddle/bridge that can be moved to adjust intonation and action.


   Mine has a nice, simple ebony bridge.  I'm in the process of learning all kinds of new things about mandolins right now.  If I remove (or loosen?) the strings my bridge will presumably be moveable.  I'm going to experiment with that.  I suppose I can always put a piece of blue tape down in case I want to move it back.

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## Charlieshafer

Yes, do that with the tape, and only loosen the strings enough to slide the bridge in tiny increments without scratching the finish. Sometimes it needs a little twist, sometimes a parallel movement in relation to it's current position, but go slowly.

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## JeffD

[QUOTE]


> Thanks to everybody for the information. It seems to me that the answer to my question is - no, you can't buy a 'new mandolin' and expect to be perfectly in tune.


?

Geting a proper set up is essential, for any mandolin, and most other wooden stringed musical intruments as well. And not just once, but at intervals throughout the life of the instrument.





> I have to say that is pretty sad,


Nah. It is what it is. I am not saying everyone has as much hassle as you apparently have had, but perfect out of the box? this is a thing more ardently to be wished than seriously to be expected.

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## mandroid

Well an electronic signal can be run thru a pitch correction  devise, 

IDK,they may be helping out 'American Idol' contestants.. with those..

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## FatBear

> Yes, do that with the tape, and only loosen the strings enough to slide the bridge in tiny increments without scratching the finish. Sometimes it needs a little twist, sometimes a parallel movement in relation to it's current position, but go slowly.


Thank you!  But now I have two more questions:  First, what is a tiny increment?  1mm?  0.1mm?  

Second, when I take up tension on the strings, do they move enough to make the bridge tilt?  It's only about 1/8" wide or so where it rests on the top and probably 3/8" to 1/2" high which seems kind of tippy if you pull the strings across the top of it.

Thanks.

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## kkmm

To the OP: do not give up on mandolins, all of yours are good, just need simple setup and they will play pretty in tune (not always perfect but close).
I had the same issue, can never tune my very first mandolin (brought on a trip abroad), and had to leave it in the closet for 7 years. Then I learn from the Web that I need to move the bridge to the proper place. Just a 5 mins job and I start playing mandolin like a mad man, I meant I really enjoy it.
18 months go by now and I have setup myself about a dozen mandolins and two guitars. FRETS.COM teach a lot about these.
If you learn this stuff, you could help your countrymen to setup their mandolins.

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## Charlieshafer

> Thank you!  But now I have two more questions:  First, what is a tiny increment?  1mm?  0.1mm?  
> 
> Second, when I take up tension on the strings, do they move enough to make the bridge tilt?  It's only about 1/8" wide or so where it rests on the top and probably 3/8" to 1/2" high which seems kind of tippy if you pull the strings across the top of it.
> 
> Thanks.


That's a normal concern, and you can get the skinny bridges to tip if you simply tighten away. Simply use your thumb and fingers to straighten the bridge during tightening. AS you tighten, just look to see if it's twisting, and if so, stop, straighten, and tighten some more. Obviously, with really nice mandolins and bridges, this is much less of a problem, but with the lower priced stuff, it's normal. I spend a lot of time messing around with old beater mandolins and kids, so the bridges are always getting knocked out, not because they're really careless, they're just kids. As far as increments of adjustment, that's not a hard and fast rule, as it depends on how much the intonation is out. Sometimes they're half an inch out, but most of the time, play with 1-2 mm increments until you start getting close, then go smaller. Again, don't be afraid, you won't hurt anything that can't be put right back again.

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## kjbllc

after playing a number of different instruments I found out getting a quality instrument really paid off in the long run. Of course this isn't always possible, but if you are sort of serious about it take the jump if you don't end up continuing with it you get a much better resale value. I have bought a lot of crappy instruments, They make it much harder to learn and increases your desire not to practice. good luck with you journey in music.

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## FatBear

> Short answer. Email me at rob.meldrum@gmail.com for a free ebook on how to set up a mandolin.


I saw this and requested the book.  Wow, it's thorough!  And full of down to earth advice that a non-luthier can use, like buying feeler gauges at Harbor Freight.  (I got mine at NAPA, it's closer.)  Even if you don't do your own work, this seems like a great overview.  You will understand what can or can't be done so you can talk intelligently to the luthier if you choose not to do it yourself.

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## JeffD

> so you can talk intelligently to the luthier if you choose not to do it yourself.


Or so you can talk intelligently to your luthier after you try to do it yourself.  :Smile:

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## JeffD

> But I sure would like C on both A strings to sound the same as each other.  When they are not tuned alike it just makes my skin crawl.


Now that I look this over, I have had this problem twice in my life. Both times on an E string. Once because the week before at a jam I had replaced a broken E string with what ever I had with me, and it turned out to be a different gauge, but I didn't notice and forgot. Back home a week later I could not get the two into perfect tune when fretted up the neck. It drove me crazy till I borrowed a neighbor's micrometer (I have the coolest neighbors) and checked, and sure enough the strings were different gauges.

Another time, also on the E string, also could not tune them in unison all the way up and down the neck. I then noticed that one of the E strings was securly in the nut slot, while the other was caught somehow up on the edge of the nut slot. 


Stuff happens.

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## Earthwood

> Short answer. Email me at rob.meldrum@gmail.com for a free ebook on how to set up a mandolin. in two hours you'll have a vastly improved instrument.  All of the issues you mentioned are common to factory - shipped instruments.  Rob


Do This!  I got the ebook last night and it is chock-full of great tweaks and setup tips that I had no knowledge of when I first transitioned from guitar to mandolin.

I have a Rogue and an Eastman MD315.  When I got my Eastman, I was ready to turn my Rogue into wall art, but decided to keep it as a project mandolin for practicing setup.  After adjusting and fitting my bridge, the Rogue sounded MUCH better.  I let a friend borrow my Rogue a couple weeks ago because his rock band has a few songs they want to throw some mandolin on (with how loud they play I doubt the mandolin would even be heard, so tone quallity is not a big concern).  As soon as get it back, I plan on using the ebook to help me adjust the nut.




> Today I feel like giving up on the mandolin!  Is it not possible to get one with accurate intonation, without spending 10K? Should give up and just start playing guitar instead?


Don't give up!  You can get a good sounding instrument for less than $1000.  People have been really pleased with Eastmans and The Loar mandolins on this forum when they get them from someone who does a good setup.  Use this forum because it is full of people with a wealth of knowledge and experience, and are willing to share it with people who need help.  There are plenty of people like Rob who have taken the time to write ebooks, guides, make videos, etc...  Also, use the cafe sponsors if you order anything.  You are guarenteed a fair price and an excellent setup.

I must say this is the best forum I have ever been a member of.  People are far kinder and far less critical than anywhere else on the internet where people have a little box to type their opinions without any repercussions  :Wink:

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## Turnip Mountain Picker

My MK was about the same as what you describe and it had way to much relief in the neck.  I set the intonation as best I could and it still was bad.  I quit playing ot for months and just played my Loar.  I finally decided to pay the $90 for a pro set up.  It was amazing the differance.  He lowered the nut, straightened the neck via the truss rod. set the bridge and string highth and it plays and sounds awsome, I love playing it now and the Loar is only used now and then just to paly it.

One more thing about staying in tune.  New strings have to reach a certain stretch before they will stay in tune.  When I put on new strings I hammer away on chhop cords for about a week and then they sound great and stay in tune through whoe jam sessions.

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## J.Albert

"Is it possible to get an "in tune" mandolin?"

Yes. But not for very long....

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## LM_in_KY

This thread just answered something that has been tugging at me for a few days. I _CANNOT_ get my cheepie in tune. The only thing I _had_ going for me was a somewhat good ear for tuning, but now that has proven to be sort of a curse. The first fret on my cheep-o-lin is all but unplayable, and when you get furhter up, it's almost as if the notes are almost a half step off ----oO0F  :Mad:   Ive lowered the bridge, but it really needs a thicker gauge first fret and the bridge reglued further back.
As a rank, lowest rung, n00b, I dont feel Ive "earned" the right to a nice mando yet. So, I guess after reading all of this stuff, I am just going to tolerate/embrace the out-of-tunity and know better days are ahead when the 'real' one comes along. :Chicken: 

My mando was a very thoughtful gift from my Wife after I talked about it for months, so I will feel better about stubbing my fingers on it for a while, anyway.

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## Tavy

LM: this sounds to me like the nut is too high, and the bridge in the wrong place.

Note that the bridges are not glued on - they're "floating" - so just slacken off the D and A strings and then you should be able to move the bridge to where it needs to be.  I suggest you wander over to frets.com as you should be able to find the info you need to fix this up properly there.

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LM_in_KY

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## LM_in_KY

> LM: this sounds to me like the nut is too high, and the bridge in the wrong place.
> 
> Note that the bridges are not glued on - they're "floating" - so just slacken off the D and A strings and then you should be able to move the bridge to where it needs to be.  I suggest you wander over to frets.com as you should be able to find the info you need to fix this up properly there.


Thank you Tavy . . . I loosened the strings and had to move the bridge a full 10mm back  to get it intone (almost) correctly. There were small dimples in the top Im not too happy about, but it with the lowering of the strings, it sounds like a new instrument !  This just adds an exclamation point to the "_GET A PROPER SET-UP_" advice the seasoned players give here, over and over . . . Thanks again. :Mandosmiley:

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## Toni Schula

The following theory aplies to any instrument, not only mandolins and especially banjos.

According to Heisenberg:
T = h * 1/t

With T being the quailty of being in tune and t being the noticeable timespan of a note. And h of course is the Heisenberg constant which you better google.

In other words, the instrument either is perfectly in tune OR you can hear it produce a sound ;-)

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## hvalrgir

> The following theory aplies to any instrument, not only mandolins and especially banjos.
> 
> According to Heisenberg:
> T = h * 1/t
> 
> With T being the quailty of being in tune and t being the noticeable timespan of a note. And h of course is the Heisenberg constant which you better google.
> 
> In other words, the instrument either is perfectly in tune OR you can hear it produce a sound ;-)


It's only in tune when you dont play a note (as t=>0, T=>∞).

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## Tavy

> It's only in tune when you dont play a note (as t=>0, T=>∞).


You can have volume or pitch, but never both at the same time (Pauli exclusion principle).

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## JeffD

:Laughing:

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## mandroid

Like Schrödinger's cat, If you leave it in the box, it can be both at the same time only in probability theory.

FWIW,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat

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## Tavy

> Like Schrödinger's cat, If you leave it in the box, it can be both at the same time only in probability theory.


Schrödinger's mandolin is both an A and an F style at once, just don't look at it or it'll collapse...

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## Wupeide

This tread took on a life of its own after I left it.  :Smile:  Funny.

Suffice it to say, I have not achieved intonation yet, but I am getting closer every day. 

I think a good set up is really the key, as many have mentioned.  The tolerances for error with such a small instrument are miniscule.  


Then again, there are some interesting solutions out there that I haven't yet seen on the forum here.  Jon Mann send me this link the other day:

http://www.earvana.com/

Interesting indeed.

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## mandroid

> I'm not particular about C on my A string sounding exactly like C on the piano. I don't play with a piano, or with a band, just by myself in my living room. But I sure would like C on both A strings to sound the same as each other. When they are not tuned alike it just makes my skin crawl.



 Might have to work on that reflex, instead, its a prompt to tune the out of unison string properly, 
as soon as you notice it.. 
one of the things about a short scale stringed instrument, is  it only needs to be off a little bit to be noticed,
 because  even a half scale step note, space between frets, is not that far.  


You may need to write some amusing stage patter to  fill the time on stage, 
that you will be retuning , in live sets, (write tuning  jokes, they may or may not include 
 sub-atomic partical physics, theory , depending on your audience)
 its part of being an Entertaining musician.

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## jumppin james

I wonder if fanned frets are possible for such a short scale length. And, how about the Buzz Feiten Tuning System? (It's way different from the tuning I have on my Mando-Bird IV--the Feiten Buzz Tuning.)

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## Pete Summers

> This tread took on a life of its own after I left it.  Funny.
> 
> Suffice it to say, I have not achieved intonation yet, but I am getting closer every day. 
> 
> I think a good set up is really the key, as many have mentioned.  The tolerances for error with such a small instrument are miniscule.  
> 
> 
> Then again, there are some interesting solutions out there that I haven't yet seen on the forum here.  Jon Mann send me this link the other day:
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, here is my understanding of the elements of mandolin setup:

The first thing to be determined in setting up a factory mandolin is the length of the scale. On a typical modern A or F style mandolin the scale is 13-7/8 inches. That means the speaking length of the strings should be divided in half at the 12th fret. That fret should produce an perfect octave to the open string. So the length of the speaking length of the strings from the nut to the 12th fret should be EXACTLY the same distance as it is from the 12 fret to the bridge. A good ruler will help find the proper bridge position. 

This string length can be tweaked somewhat by compensated bridges, but the fundamental rule is: nut to 12th fret equals 12th fret to bridge. Just placing the bridge in this position to start will seriously improve intonation. 

Once the bridge is in the right spot, the nut height can be tested according to the tests given at http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musi...nutaction.html (using the example of the guitar in that link, but applicable to mandolin also). If the nut has the strings too high above the first fret, it will stretch the string when played, particularly on the first few frets, causing the notes to sound sharp, not to mention hard to play. So adjusting the nut is next in line.

With the nut and bridge position corrected, the height of the bridge to produce proper fret clearance at the 12th fret is the next step. Assuming a straight neck and level frets (a big assumption in some cases) the clearance of the string above the 12th fret should be about two millimeters, more or less depending on string gauge and preference. Once the instrument has been setup in this manner even the lowly laminated Rogues and Savannahs will sound surprising good.

All of this can be learned and Rob's ebook and Frets.com are good places to start. The peculiar flaws of the Tempered Scale are always present in any instrument of fixed pitch, however, there's not much that can be done about that.

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Jim Garber

Maybe you need a mandolin with frets like this Sanden guitar (currently at Mandolin Brothers).

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## Tom Cherubini

About nut to 12th fret and 12th fret to bridge distances, some instruments will actually sound the string when fretted above the 12th fret and plucked below the 12th fret. Not a very good tone but often good enough for a tuner to pick up. To position the bridge precisely, fret the E string in the regular way and watch the tuner, Then fret ABOVE the 12th fret and pluck the string over the fret board. 
The two notes of course, should be exactly the same pitch. If not, move the bridge until they are. Do the same procedure for the G string. Being able to sound the note over the fret board depends on the height of the strings above the frets, a higher action making it easier. Not every mandolin will voice a note. You may just get a 'plunk' which a tuner won't pick up, in which case the measuring method has to be used, but it's not quite as accurate.
I think it's a bit easier on archtop guitars. 

Thomas

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## stevedenver

to be brief
set up and bridge poistion is critical as mentioned

i had a '35 A-50 (with raised fingerboard extention in triburst, red line geib, pretty rare -stolen from me some fifteen years back and likely still in Yuma, Colorado with an ex-nannys trash rock and roll boyfriend/thief) , and like many older gibbys, not all that easy to play, and old tuners too

and now have a 02 fern
started on both with phosphor bronze strings-but thomastiks made both play better and stay in tune

the epiphany for me regarding stability and ease of playing (and i often play above the fifteenth fret, in tune!

are the very pricey *thomastik strings* -simply, once these strings settle, they stay tuned-for me often needing NO tuning after three hours of playing with my band, hard

i prefer the sound of bronze strings by far, but use thomastiks exclusively now becuase of the tuning stability and softness and slickness, which allow me to play my fern like a fretless wonder-and in tune!

i cannot overstate the difference these make for me in terms of staying in tune-

the tradeoff is not being able to bury the banjo player volume-wise, un-mic'd

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## Tavy

> This string length can be tweaked somewhat by compensated bridges, but the fundamental rule is: nut to 12th fret equals 12th fret to bridge. Just placing the bridge in this position to start will seriously improve intonation.


Yes the bridge need to be in the right place, but I couldn't disagree more that the 12th fret should bisect the strings - that would only ever be true if the strings were infinitely flexible.  In practice there's a section of string at either end which doesn't really participate in string vibration so the effective vibrating length is always shorter than what you measure.  Added to which we bend the string slightly sharp when we fret it.  These are the reasons why we compensate bridges, and why they should always be slightly closer to the tailpiece than measuring would indicate is correct.  I confess I've never measured how much this is on a mandolin 'cos there's no need - just adjust bridge position until everything is in tune - but on guitars the amount of compensation is typically 2mm on the high e and 5-6mm on the low e.  I would imagine mandolins to be similar.

BTW don't get too strung up on getting the 12th fret in tune - check it everywhere and move the bridge until you get the best compromise over the whole fretboard.  At the end of the day all the theory, trick and tips are irrelevant - the bridge is _moveable_, so trial and error small movements until you reach the best compromise position is as good a method as any!

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## Paul Statman

On one of my mandos I can get everything set up electronically and in tune, but for the A course, which frets sharp up to the sixth fret.
The nut slots couldn't be cut any lower, so I'm starting to think that either the saddle is not compensated correctly, or Buzz Feiten needs to make an entrance..

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## Tom Wright

> ...The nut slots couldn't be cut any lower, so I'm starting to think that either the saddle is not compensated correctly, or Buzz Feiten needs to make an entrance...


Until you have indeed cut the slots too low, e.g. the string bottoming out on the first fret, the slots may still be too high. I thought I had my Buchanan dialed in, but checked more carefully and found I needed to match my pairs better. That of course meant going a little lower on the high string of a pair, and the result was that what I thought to be a tempering challenge was just the D, A, and E strings being a tiny bit high at the nut. I mean a tiny bit, as in three or four strokes total with the file. Now it is no effort to tune up perfectly, excellent intonation at 5th fret as well as 12th from my fixed bridge. And making the pairs more accurately matched meant my unisons were spot-on instead of unreliable.

If the A plays sharp in the low frets it is too high at the nut. The bridge location is least noticed in the low frets; the reverse is true for nut height. The string should deflect downward when fingered at the first fret by no more than it does when going from fret 1 to 2, which is to say almost unnoticeably. The difference between high enough and too high (or too low) is really small.

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## Paul Statman

> The string should deflect downward when fingered at the first fret by no more than it does when going from fret 1 to 2, which is to say almost unnoticeably. The difference between high enough and too high (or too low) is really small.


Thanks, Tom. I knew this, and to that end, had already fine tuned (filed) the nut slots with a feeler gauge.

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## Steve Ostrander

An in-tune mandolin exists, like some radioactive isotopes, for a nanosecond, then dissapear into the ether, never to be seen nor heard from again....

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## aneumann01

Everyone here is more seasoned than I am but I can't help but throw in my two cents. You mentioned "unplayable." I'm guessing the action is too high. High action can kill your intonation. Maybe the bridge is set too high? I had one with a bridge set high. The action and intonation was ridiculous. I took the screws off the bridge and dropped the saddle all the way down on the bridge and it was such a big difference. Playability and intonation improved greatly. I find the mandolin to be an interesting creature.  :Smile:  I make it a point to learn everything I can about them but that's kind of hard since no two are the same. If you don't feel comfortable trouble shooting issues, take it to a professional for a set ups and he'll do it for you.

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## Paul Statman

The break point in the slots at the nut and saddle must be correct.

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## Dragonfly Dreamer

Well....now I am totally terrorized :Chicken:  at the advanced age of 65, happily collecting my social security and deciding I needed to tend to my "bucket List"...I had the wild thought that as I had always wanted to learn an instrument and never did...and that instrumental music has always made my heart sing....I decided to learn to read music AND play the violin at the same time.... :Disbelief: 
18 months later....I have realized I will not live long enough to become a proud "fiddler"...so...the mandolin, such a lovely romantic instrument, seemed a viable alternative as it has the same string chords and tunes in a similar fashion...after due diligence, and some reading and wandering about on Ebay and Amazon, I have a used a style Appalachian (Amazon cheapie touted to have a solid maple top) in the mail on its way to me, have bought  D'Addario FW74's to replace the existing strings, learn to play book and CD by Mel Bay, been studying the tabs charts....oh my......and now having found the Mandolin Cafe and reading the applicable forums....oh my.....it would seem I have lept from the skillet into the fire!  :Whistling:  But I must say...everyone is so knowledgeable and helpful, I look forward to the coming adventure!! And I will be looking for someone to do the set up!

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Loretta Callahan, 

Paul Statman

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## Paul Statman

Welcome to the 'cafe, Dragonfly Dreamer! A whole world of things mandolin awaits you here. Happy picking.. :Mandosmiley:

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Dragonfly Dreamer

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