# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Marilynn mair book!

## harper

What a great way to start the new year! I just saw the announcement on the Cafe home page that Marilynn Mair's new book "The Complete Mandolinist" is out and available from Mel Bay. I ordered mine from Elderly Instruments minutes ago (at a lower shipping cost than from Mel Bay). Last July at Summerkeys, Marilynn taught from several pre-publication pages of this book, and I expect the completed book is going to be outstanding. I have been awaiting it eagerly, and anticipate that it will be valuable to anyone who wants to develop solid technique and play choro or classical music.

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## Rick Schmidlin

Can't wait to get mine.

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## billkilpatrick

me too - been waiting for this book for a long time. think i've made a grave error in choosing the normal postal rate however ... should be here with me in italy sometime in june - if that.

che serà ... grazie marilynn!

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## surfandstrum

Just placed my order tonight...was thinking about waiting, but then I thought what better way to start the new year than learning how to break bad habits...

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## telepbrman

Is it a tab book?

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## JeffD

First of you to get a copy, please give us a review.

I love MM's playing so I have every expectation that the book is excellent.

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## AlanN

Knowing the little I do of this artist, I would guess music notation only.

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## mando.player

I guess a better question would be does it have a section (i.e. more than a few pages) on learning to read. Or does it just jump right into the notation? The book is directed at all levels of players, so I'll be interested in finding this out. I wonder if there is a table of contents floating around.

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## gnelson651

I just love it when tab-only-readers shiver in their boots that they might have to learn to read standard notation. Oh the horror!

Really, learning to read standard notation is not that difficult. Six year-olds do it daily in their piano/violin/clarinet lessons. If a six year old can do it, why not adults? 

Using my daughther's beginning violin book, I was able to teach myself to read basic standard notation in about a month. Further study after about three months and I was pretty comfortable with it.

So go ahead, jump in with both feet, the water is fine.

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## chip

You'll become a better player by learning notation. It opens you up to more availability of tunes as there are 1000's of songs that aren't available in tab but are in notation. I wish that people that put out these books would also include a cd/dvd so we can hear and see how the songs are supposed to be played. At least for me I prefer hearing what's on the pages...

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## Jeff Hoelter

> I wish that people that put out these books would also include a cd/dvd so we can hear and see how the songs are supposed to be played. At least for me I prefer hearing what's on the pages...


On Mel Bay's info page, it says this is a "Format: Book/CD Set" - so I suppose it does include a CD?

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## mando.player

> If a six year old can do it, why not adults?


Technically, I believe children have a higher capacity for learning than adults. At least that's what I keep telling myself...LOL.

With the New Year upon us, I'm really looking to focus on my playing. Last year the focus was on me. I ditched a bunch of weight, changed jobs and took care of some other stalled projects.

I'm thinking Marilynn's book may be the ticket for me. I tend to gravitate towards methods and frameworks, as opposed to tune oriented instruction. That's not to say I don't learn tunes, it's just a book full of tunes doesn't constitute an instructional method for me.

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## chip

Thanks Jeff: I missed that information regarding the CD. I'm glad that's the case as it's helpful for me to hear the way a passage should be played.

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## gnelson651

> Technically, I believe children have a higher capacity for learning than adults. #At least that's what I keep telling myself...LOL.


Personally, I believe it has to more with attitude than capacity. Children are more open to new ideas and concepts than adults. Adults can be rigid and set in their ways.

 The thought of learning something new, especially something like standard notation, seems like a step backwards. For me, it was a leap forward. Now, I can play (or attempt to play) #anything written in standard or tab. The possibilities are limitless. I don't have to worry if Mair's book is in tab, or any other music book. My only limitation is my capacity to set down and play it.

The title of the book is "The Complete Mandolinist." To be complete, standard notation should be in your musical arsenal/toolbox as a mandolinist.

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## Scott Tichenor

No tab. Marilynn refuses to do tablature. Even her Mandolin Magazine columns don't go there. Let's not let this discussion degenerate into another lame tab haters vs. tab lovers free-for-all, please. There's room for everyone.

Interesting side note, I specifically asked her if Mel Bay requested tablature for this and she said the discussion never even came up. Seems &lt;cough&gt;, I heard another Mel Bay author that frequents this forum and rants anti-tab state they *insist* on it with anything mandolin. Interesting.

And for the record, I make wide use of standard, rarely tablature, but have no problem with it. It's everyone's personal choice. Some of you wish to engage in those pros and cons arguments and that's fine, but let's leave it out of this thread.

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## mando.player

Scott, thanks for the update. I was wondering the same thing, if Mel Bay requested TAB or not.


I guess my only question now is how much time the method spends on teaching notation.

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## Scott Tichenor

Don't know. Marilynn said she's mailed a copy to me. I'd actually be surprised if there would be any. Debora Chen's book would be good for that.

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## JimD

> Interesting side note, I specifically asked her if Mel Bay requested tablature for this and she said the discussion never even came up. Seems &lt;cough&gt;, I heard another Mel Bay author that frequents this forum and rants anti-tab state they *insist* on it with anything mandolin. Interesting.


I haven't dealt with Mel Bay -- but I can tell you that when I did my book for Alfred, they insisted on tab for EVERY page. Including the chapter on note reading.

That little bit of intransigence basically ruined the usefulness of that chapter.

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## Got8Strings

Ignoring the religious part of the tab/notation argument, from a publisher's position you can see where requiring both would be to their benefit - helping them sell books to both camps. There would definitely be a business rationale for that.

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## JimD

> Ignoring the religious part of the tab/notation argument, from a publisher's position you can see where requiring both would be to their benefit - helping them sell books to both camps. #There would definitely be a business rationale for that.


Frankly, no.

Not in the situation that I described (and a number of others that I can think of) This has nothing to do with the "religious question". It has to do with simple common sense.

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## billkilpatrick

just heard from elderly that they're already out of stock ... which means a three week wait for them - to get new copies - and who knows how long till the italian postal service does the right thing?

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## surfandstrum

The rumor is true...I thought I made it in via e-mail yesterday, but those of you who called in beat me to the punch...They won't get more for awhile now...

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## surfandstrum

I just off the phone with Mel Bay...The lady said there is over 700 in stock there...but the shipping is a bit more at around $7 in the 48...Looks like there is where I have to place my order

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## Got8Strings

> Originally Posted by  (Got8Strings @ Jan. 02 2008, 11:54)
> 
> Ignoring the religious part of the tab/notation argument, from a publisher's position you can see where requiring both would be to their benefit - helping them sell books to both camps. There would definitely be a business rationale for that.
> 
> 
> Frankly, no.
> 
> Not in the situation that I described (and a number of others that I can think of) This has nothing to do with the "religious question". It has to do with simple common sense.


Obviously requiring tab for a "how to read notation" chapter or book is silly. 

But surely you can understand the publisher's broad perspective. Publishing a book with only notation precludes sales to the tab-addicted/notation-averse. And a tab-only book would not appeal to the notation-only crowd. A publisher would want to publish a product that has the broadest commercial appeal. 

That is simple business sense, though it may result in some goofy musical sense, as you pointed out.

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## JimD

Well, as usual, business sense flies in the face of pedagogical or artistic sense.

But, back to the original topic:

I am glad that Marilynn was able to have some control over her product and I wish her the best with it. I am certainly looking forward to seeing it.

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## John Flynn

> That is simple business sense, though it may result in some goofy musical sense, as you pointed out.


I agree. Besides, not everyone buys an instructional book in the same mindset the author wrote it. While I have bought some method books to use as method books, I have bought other method books for reasons such as one chapter covers a technique that I have not seen covered elsewhere or because the book contains some tunes I have not seen elsewhere. I play by ear, tab and notation, but I'm all for people learning however they want to learn and I find tab to be a nice "shorthand" sometimes. Including tab seems to widen the audience for any music book and as Jeff pointed out, that just makes sense, it makes the book more useful to a wider number of people. Besides, if an author really feels that a publisher's policies are unacceptable, there are other publishers and self-publishing options out there.

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## Peter Hackman

_&lt;Comment removed. Violates board posting guidelines&gt;._

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## JimD

I just love the phrase "rants anti-tab".

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## Bob_Blackman

Re Elderly (where I work), I saw this thread today and advised our book purchaser to get some copies ASAP. We should have a big batch here by Monday 1/7 if all goes well, and all backorders will be filled as soon as we get that shipment.

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## mando.player

I've often wondered why more authors don't self-publish. I don't pretend to know how these book deals are setup, but I would guess that if you were a known mandolin personality you'd have more upside doing this yourself. There are more than a few options out there for just in time publishing, where books are published as they are purchased.

I understand that Mel Bay offers the benefits of a distributor, but really how many mandolin books do you see in actual retail stores. I'd like to see some sales trends on mandolin books:
- online v. retail (not sure if that one's possible)
- sales through MelBay.com v. other retailers
- sales over time
- etc.

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## surfandstrum

Bob...that's great news...too bad the sales rep didn't know that...He said it would be 16 days till more would come in...My immediate gratification cause me to order from Mel Bay...cest la vie...

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## jmcgann

> Seems &lt;cough&gt;, I heard another Mel Bay author that frequents this forum and rants anti-tab state they *insist* on it with anything mandolin. Interesting.


I hope that cough clears up soon, Scott!  

I think you mean someone else, since I am not anti-tab, but rather pro-notation. I'd rather see people use tab than nothing at all, but I also feel happy to point out the benefits of reading notation, and what it provides that tab doesn't.

Even if you mean someone else, though, I'm happy to share my little story:

I was told directly, in no uncertain terms, by Bill Bay when I did my books for Mel Bay, starting in 1999 or so, that tablature was required with the standard notation. Others that I have spoken to have told me the same was required of them.

My "Creating Melodic Variations" books rarely venture up the neck anyway, and we could have saved a lot of paper going the notation only route, but again, that wasn't my choice at the time.

Meanwhile, here's a free .pdf file to help those interested in converting their tab reading skills into standard notation. A little daily practice will prove eating your vegetables is good for you and actually they taste great too  

I'm delighted Marilynn has her book out, and I am also excited to see it.

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## Barb Friedland

I just ordered the Mair book from: http://www.musicbooksplus.com
They have a number of shipping options. 

From the description of the book, it appears to me that some music reading info may be included and if not, there are resources on the internet that cover music theory including how to read standard notation. #It truly is not all that hard to learn and I wouldn't let that issue keep me away from a book the looks this good. Let me know if you want links.

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## Rick Schmidlin

> You'll become a better player by learning notation. It opens you up to more availability of tunes as there are 1000's of songs that aren't available in tab but are in notation. I wish that people that put out these books would also include a cd/dvd so we can hear and see how the songs are supposed to be played. At least for me I prefer hearing what's on the pages...


I saw James Taylor on Travis Smiley the other night and he said he never learned to read music.

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## JeffD

I am looking forward to MM's book to plug some gaps in my mando-education. Its a chance to "go back and do it right" and I can't wait to take advantage of it.

Or, to avoid needless conflict, (and to state my case more accurately) its a chance to go back and do it the way I would have rather done it had the resources been there when I started playing years ago.

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## jmcgann

> I saw James Taylor on Travis Smiley the other night and he said he never learned to read music.


Hey, when you are as talented and lucky, you won't have to either! 

Remember, whoever sells the mostest records without reading music is the winner!

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## The Old Sarge

A million years ago I took violin lessons. Of course, I learned to read standard notation. After giving the violin up I didn't play any instrument for about forty-five or fifty years so I can't sight read anymore. But I recently started playing around with the mandolin and I wanted tab for a particular song. Couldn't locate it but I did find it in standard notation so I printed that out, sit down with my tab paper and worked it out on an imaginary mandolin neck while my wife was watching TV. It was a little slow, but worked perfectly.

Mr. McGann, when I retire later this year (good Lord willing) I think I will learn standard notation again and appreciate your free book. I don't expect I'll ever be great on the mandolin but I'm doing it for my own enjoyment anyway and if re-learning notation increases that enjoyment, then I'm willing to give it a try. And it might open some new books, like Ms Mair's book, which may help me be a little better than I would be otherwise.

BTW, my teacher uses tab in teaching me but he is, to a large degree, trying to train me to play by ear. That is a real new experience for me. And I am one of two people in the town where I live that drinks TAB.

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## mando.player

My motivation is in the same vein as Jeff's (going back). I've tried to start reading notation on several occasions with limited success. The main problem is everything I was trying to read had TAB right under the notation.

Human nature being what it is...I eventually ended up peeking. With Marilynn's book that's not an issue. I'm hoping that it's enough to occupy the majority of my instructional needs until the reading skills have sunk in. At which point, I'll be able to NOT look at the tab.

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## CraigF

I too, have been waiting a long time for this.

Please stop turning this into a tab vs notation war. There are tons of tab books out there. This is THE ONLY book published for Classical Mandolin in the US. All others have been out of print for a long time. Classical Mandolin uses notation not tab, so tab serves no purpose here. Can't you just allow us our one book?

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## jmcgann

Charlie, you might try some fiddle tune books like O"Neills Music of Ireland which doesn't have tab. so you can't peak. 99% of the tunes are in 1st position, the best place to start IMHO. Also, very mando friendly keys, and not too many rhythms to juggle.

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## mando.player

Thanks John. Once I get the ball rolling I'll take a look at that book. I think I'm going to have to put my ego on the shelf for a few months in order to buckle down and get this notation thing taken care of once and for all.

I did this once already, but it was in regard to my playing technique. My left hand was serviceable, but was starting to present problems technically and physically. I broke down the mechanics and came up with a much better approach for myself. Brad Laird's books helped in breaking down the process and somewhere along the way I read The Art of Practice which served as a general guideline. Anyhow, I think I'm going to have to take the same approach with learning notation.

Just another step in the process

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## billkilpatrick

sight unseen - viz. notation - i feel the same way: the mandolin is the first instrument i've ever come across that i'd like to know how to play it "properly." i've always trusted women to steer me right and ... "la mair" has all the credentials.

time to "get right ..." - bill

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## JeffD

> Charlie, you might try some fiddle tune books like O"Neills Music of Ireland which doesn't have tab. so you can't peak. 99% of the tunes are in 1st position, the best place to start IMHO. Also, very mando friendly keys, and not too many rhythms to juggle.


There are about 1,850 reasons to by O'Niells. I have warn out one copy and am working on the second.

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## JeffD

> Please stop turning this into a tab vs notation war. There are tons of tab books out there.


And quite a few other threads around in which to pick up the war if you must.

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## John Flynn

> I too, have been waiting a long time for this.
> 
> Please stop turning this into a tab vs notation war. There are tons of tab books out there. This is THE ONLY book published for Classical Mandolin in the US. All others have been out of print for a long time. Classical Mandolin uses notation not tab, so tab serves no purpose here. Can't you just allow us our one book?


I suggest that you re-read the thread and see which side initiated the war on this one. 

On a different note, if you read the article on Mair's new book it does not seem to be classical mandolin book. It is a complete mandolin book, including fiddle tunes, choro, etc.

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## Eugene

This isn't the only classical method in print in the US, and even if so, there are plenty of others easily enough accessible in the US if you're willing to broaden your shopping. At least volume one of Bickford is still in print in the US, at least last I knew. ...And Marshall's duo-style book? ...That edition of Cristofaro sold by Elderly forever? Etc?

...And if anybody is curious, I have humbly launched a new staff notation vs. tablature thread, but my intent is more to sing the praises of both in a "classical" context than to belittle either.

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## John Flynn

Bless you, Eugene!

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## August Watters

> This isn't the only classical method in print in the US, and even if so, there are plenty of others easily enough accessible in the US if you're willing to broaden your shopping. #At least volume one of Bickford is still in print in the US, at least last I knew. #...And Marshall's duo-style book? #...That edition of Cristofaro sold by Elderly forever?


The Bickford and Cristofaro books still have value, but they're generations old. Marshall has some great material, but hasn't published a method book. There hasn't been a method for classical mandolin published in English for many decades.

This book is a milestone, by any measure.

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## telepbrman

No tab...thanks for the info gang, I'll skip the book. I love the cafe, because I can get helpful info before I buy something, later, dy.

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## jasona

Sorry to hear the notation is driving you off. Its really not that hard to pick up.

I am really looking forward to this book. My problem is however too many resources, not enough time to work through all of them effectively.

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## Robert Moreau

Just ordered my copy from Elderly. I can't wait! I've gotten some great tips from Marilyn Mair's site in the past and have been looking for a "complete" book like this for ages!  

My notation reading isn't the best at the moment but I won't let that get in the way of sharpening my skills as a player. I welcome the opportunity to improve in all areas. 

Rob

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## Eugene

> The Bickford and Cristofaro books still have value, but they're generations old. Marshall has some great material, but hasn't published a method book. There hasn't been a method for classical mandolin published in English for many decades.
> 
> This book is a milestone, by any measure.


I agree. #However, I was disputing the idea that this is the only classical method in print in the US; it isn't even if it is the _newest_ one to hit print. #I like Ms. Mair personally, and am eager to score a copy, but once you have so many methods under your belt, new ones to address the basics of music and technique serve mostly to satiate curiosity. #Whether or not those methods are generations old isn't a huge deal because the basics--notation, fingerboard layout, many aspects of mechanics, etc.--are relatively stable.

...And it doesn't detract from the achievement of Marilynn's book in the slightest, but I would consider this book to be both a US "classical" method to and to not be generations old.

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## Don Christy

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> I too, have been waiting a long time for this.
> 
> Please stop turning this into a tab vs notation war. There are tons of tab books out there. This is THE ONLY book published for Classical Mandolin in the US. All others have been out of print for a long time. Classical Mandolin uses notation not tab, so tab serves no purpose here. Can't you just allow us our one book?
> 
> 
> I suggest that you re-read the thread and see which side initiated the war on this one. 
> 
> On a different note, if you read the article on Mair's new book it does not seem to be classical mandolin book. It is a complete mandolin book, including fiddle tunes, choro, etc.


I just ordered my copy from elderly. I'll post my review from a reforming-tab-addicted-struggling-to-learn-notation perspective once I dig in.

Don

PS: I'm with John. Why do so many people ask us not to make this a tab/notation thread just before posting their tab/notation comment!

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If a book doesn't have Mandolin Tablature how can it be a _Mandolin_ book? It could be a piano book, a guitar book, a tenor banjo book or any number of other instruments.

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## JimD

> If a book doesn't have Mandolin Tablature how can it be a _Mandolin_ book? It could be a piano book, a guitar book, a tenor banjo book or any number of other instruments.


Piano music has a greater range and is written on 2 staves. Tenor banjo has a lower range than mandolin...

There have been mandolin books without tab before.

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&lt;&lt; Piano music has a greater range and is written on 2 staves. Tenor banjo has a lower range than mandolin... &gt;&gt;

Which notes exactly are on a mandolin that aren't on a piano? Why couldn't standard notation for a mandolin be played on a piano? Tenor banjo and guitar music are typically written on the treble clef and are played one octave below what is written.

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## JimD

> &lt;&lt; Piano music has a greater range and is written on 2 staves. Tenor banjo has a lower range than mandolin... &gt;&gt;
> 
> Which notes exactly are on a mandolin that aren't on a piano? Why couldn't standard notation for a mandolin be played on a piano? Tenor banjo and guitar music are typically written on the treble clef and are played one octave below what is written.


Your point?

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## Don Christy

> If a book doesn't have Mandolin Tablature how can it be a _Mandolin_ book? It could be a piano book, a guitar book, a tenor banjo book or any number of other instruments.


It will presumably deal with technique issues that follow from the mandolin's unique set of features (four doubled string courses tuned in fifths, use of plectrum, scale length, etc).

So even though it may not have tab per se, I suspect it will have some "tab looking" charts that describe positions and finger strategies that are (somewhat) unique to the mandolin. 

(all speculation until i get my copy)
Don

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&lt;&lt; Your point? &gt;&gt;

Without Tab it isn't a _Mandolin_ book. It is a book of music that can be played on the Mandolin but that requires the player to interpret the music to the mandolin. It cannot be "the most comprehensive American mandolin method published in nearly a century" because it does not provide the explicit information that would make it specific to the mandolin.

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## Eugene

This has descended into the slightly silly. #The author's intent is what makes it mandolin music, independent of the notation system. #Sure, you could play most flute music on mandolin, but if it was written with the intent to be flute music, it's flute music. #Why isn't a book of mandolin tablature without any staff notation really violin music...or mandola music...or violoncello music (relative tuning by intervals is the same)? #Have a look at Aubrey Stauffer's mandolin studies. #Some of the effects, harmonics, duo-style passages, etc. would be very difficult or impossible to realize on piano, flute, or almost anything else that isn't a mandolin. #Stauffer wrote only in staff notation. #It's still mandolin music. Similarly, Mair's method is for mandolin especially in addressing mandolin technique and tuning in addition to musical examples in staff notation (assuming so without seeing yet).

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## coletrickle

This book is the second step on my New Year's resolution to re-learn standard notation that I have forgot since high school. The first is the recent "Standard Notation for the Tab Addicted Mandolinist". What timing for my motivation! 

At $24 buying Mair's book is the one of the least risky ventures I made in the world of mandolin sheet music. Even if I find I don't utilize it as much as I should, I have it and it is a 200+ page anthology worth every penny.

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## JimD

> &lt;&lt; Your point? &gt;&gt;
> 
> Without Tab it isn't a _Mandolin_ book. It is a book of music that can be played on the Mandolin but that requires the player to interpret the music to the mandolin. It cannot be "the most comprehensive American mandolin method published in nearly a century" because it does not provide the explicit information that would make it specific to the mandolin.


There was mandolin music without tab for @200 years and there will continue to be mandolin music without tab.

I'll refrain from commenting any further on this thread -- if you want to discuss it --go to the tablature vs. staff notation thread.

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Of course there has been mandolin music in standard notation for a long time. But there is a difference between a music book and a _method_ book.

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## JimD

> Of course there has been mandolin music in standard notation for a long time. But there is a difference between a music book and a _method_ book.


See my post in the other thread.

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## Eugene

There have been a great many excellent and wholly legitimate mandolin methods to excellently address mandolin-specific technique without any tablature whatsoever: Leone, Denis, Gervasio, etc. on through Calace, Siegel, Mair, etc. Well-crafted text, diagrams, etc. make such things mandolin methods independent of a notation system. ...And again, tablature for four courses in 5ths isn't necessarily more mandolin-specific than staff notation.

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## mando.player

I tried to resist commenting, but I will 

Method: a way of doing something, especially a systematic way; implies an orderly logical arrangement

With that out of the way, it sounds like Marilynn's book can accomplish this w/o the use of TAB. If it were just a music book, it would just have pieces of music in it. A method would suggest fair bit explanatory text, specific exercises (scales, arpeggios, etc) and purposeful pieces/etudes to play. All of this information is then arranged and organized with the mandolin in mind as the primary instrument. I think the mandolin "point of view" the book takes makes it a mandolin book.

I think a more important question would be what constitutes a method. There are far to many tune books out there that are considered methods. As much as I like Mike Marshall's books, I would not consider them a method (even though they are billed as such). They are more of a brain dump with some supporting text. It's up to the player to connect the dots.

The Mandolin series of books (Horne/Fugate) is a method in my opinion. I'll have to wait until Marilynn's book shows up, but at 200+ pages my guess is it's going to be more method than "music book".

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## Eugene

> As much as I like Mike Marshall's books, I would not consider them a method (even though they are billed as such).


To be clear, I was referring to _Evan_ Marshall's method. See link above.

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## mando.player

I wasn't referring to your reference Eugene. Just coincidence that I picked Mike Marshall's books as an example.

Did anyone order from Bayside Press (mel bay)? I haven't received an order confirmation email yet. Just wondering if anyone else has.

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## chip

[quote=Tone Monster,Jan. 02 2008, 15:31 &lt;I saw James Taylor on Travis Smiley the other night and he said he never learned to read music.[/quote]&gt;
Rick..what does that have to do with my post? I don't understand what James Taylor not reading music relates to reading notation vs. tab....
I know lots of musicians who don't read music and when playing a new song with them it's a little irritating asking them what chord they are playing and they don't know...This seems to be prevalent with guitar players for some reason...

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_&lt;Comment removed. Violates board posting guidelines&gt;._

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## meem

Queridos~ I am in Rio now & have only sporadic internet access. But, yes, there is a reading section. In fact there´s a whole beginners' section, added at the request of many teachers who reviewed the prototype a couple of years back. Then there are 4 sections-- left hand, right hand, coordination, & musicianship-- that you´re to work through simultaneously. There´s a 70-minute CD that I recorded w/ Bob Sullivan that includes 38 tracks of duet exercises & concert pieces, from the first notes-on-the-G-string duet to the Vivaldi solo concerto. I'm really happy with the job Mel Bay did in printing the book. I can't believe they can sell the package for $25-- bless them! It´s really big (224 pages), so just pay the postage! Thanks to all of you who have sent me emails. I'll write back when I can-- I'm in an internet cafe now on my way elsewhere. I just got my copies a day and a half before I left home so it hasn't really sunk in that the years of writing & many many editing re-writes has actually become a book. wow. enjoy it-- I did it for you.
bjs.
m

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## mando.player

_&lt;Quoted comment removed. Violates board posting guidelines&gt;._

Would you buy this book if it had TAB?

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## JimD

_&lt;Quoted comment removed. Violates board posting guidelines&gt;._
I am surprised to see this post still standing -- considering that it is far more egregious than other posts that were removed.

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## chip

_&lt;Quoted comment removed. Violates board posting guidelines&gt;._
It's not always about money you know...

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## Tom Gibson

> Did anyone order from Bayside Press (mel bay)? I haven't received an order confirmation email yet. Just wondering if anyone else has.


I also purchased from Bayside/Mel Bay (yesterday) and am still waiting for my order confirmation. Glad to hear it's not just me.

Can't wait for the book!

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## John Flynn

> It's not always about money you know...


Well, that raises a good point. I agree that music should definitely not be about money. In this particular case, though, that "money" translates into a book being useful to a lot more people, as opposed to the book being offensive to some purists.

----------


## Jim MacDaniel

I -- a recovering tab-reader -- just ordered this book, and I am looking forward to working with it. I am also surprised that this specific method has triggered this tab vs. notation arguement, since Mair's target market is clearly those who enjoy musical genres that rely upon standard notation. There is also no right or wrong on this issue, because for some genres you must know notation to learn new pieces, for others you must know tab -- and for others it might not really matter how you read music since you may need to learn those by ear.

The way I see it:

a. _Mair's background is in music styles that heavily rely upon standard notation (e.g., Classical), #so it is not surprising that her method relies upon standard notation_

b. _If one is interested in further exploring those genres (esp. Classical), it is critical to learn to read notation -- especially if you want to be able to pick up a music book or sheet music part intended for another instrument, or that is instrument agnostic_

c. _Of the universe of music that exists in this world, only a very small subset is tabbed out for mandolin, so by learning to read standard notation, literally a world of music will be opened to you_

d. _If one is only interested in music genres that rely upon tab, then there are more appropriate teaching tools out there that will focus on techniques unique to their genre(s) of interest, so a method such as Mair's -- as well as learning to read standard notation in general -- may be a distraction instead of a benefit_

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## Linda Binder

Congratulations Marilynn Mair on bringing this big project to fruition! #
And....Thank you Mel Bay for continuing to publish interesting materials for mandolinists!

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## mando.player

I think "offensive to purists" might be overstating it a bit. Going with notation only is clearly a choice the author made. Heck, she may have had to fight for it judging from previous comments about Mel Bay policies. So, good for Marilynn for sticking to her principals. I find it hard to believe that familiar with Marilynn's work or writing would expect to see any TAB.

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## CraigF

jimmacd, very well said.

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## Steve L

I ordered a copy from Mel Bay this morning and the sales rep I spoke with said it is selling like crazy.

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## MLT

Marilynn, 

Have a Great Time in Brazil! I look forward to getting your book and learning a great deal!

Thank you for writing it!

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## Jeff Hoelter

Anyone able to find a table of contents or a few sample pages?

Thanks,
Jeff

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## mando.player

I haven't been able to find anything. Marilynn did give a brief breakdown of the organization:
- beginners section
- left hand
- right hand
- coordination
- musicianship

Where left hand, right hand, coordination, & musicianship are to be studied simultaneously. This approach suites my style of learning very much. Once I get the reading part out of the way, I'll probably break these sections up by the day of the week.

Now I just need to wait for the book...which isn't bad in my case. My father in law has a "show" he puts on for his birthday each year. I usually play bass (I have a little ashbory bass) for his band in these situations. This year he wants to do a fiddle tune medley with me on mando. So I've got to get ready for that. I don't play out too often, so I need to prepare. Should be fun. After that, it's the Mair Method.

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## BradB

I've been looking forward to this method book for a long time, but now that I see the description I'm wondering if it will be too beginner-oriented for me. I was hoping for a comprehensive classical mandolin method that goes from fundamentals to advanced playing, but this is described as a beginner's book. I'm wondering if intermediate-advanced players will get much out of it.

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## Alex Fields

> If a six year old can do it, why not adults?






> Personally, I believe it has to more with attitude than capacity. Children are more open to new ideas and concepts than adults. Adults can be rigid and set in their ways.


Actually children do have a considerably higher capacity for learning than adults. That's well researched in experimental psychology and neuroscience. Still, adults can learn too, and learning standard notation isn't very hard.

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## Alex Fields

> Anyone able to find a table of contents or a few sample pages?


I would love that too. I almost bought this book but decided not to until I've looked through a copy or at least seen a table of contents and some sample pages. Usually Amazon will have this but this book isn't on Amazon yet.

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## mando.player

The Mel Bay site just posted the TOC and some sample pages....woot!

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## Scott Tichenor

> The Mel Bay site just posted the TOC and some sample pages....woot!


Good catch. Here's the link:

Link to Mel Bay page

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## mando.player

Try this one:
Table of Contents

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## Robert Moreau

Thanks for posting the link to the additional info (table of contents, samples etc). I am doubly excited about receiving the book now!

Rob

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## meem

Queridos~ I´m happy the Table of Contents is up. I've been reading the posts & I'm glad so many of you are psyched about this! To answer the questions about level of material, this is a book you'll spend a couple of years in at least. And all the exercises are such that you can play them slowly if you like, or move up the tempo when you are more advanced. I still include many of these exercises in my warm-up, usually played 6 or so times in repetition. If you are an absolute beginner it would be good to work w/ a teacher who can add more same-level material to the first section if needed until you get on your musical feet. But if there isn't a teacher in your area, just jump in & email me for suggestions for further beginner-level material. I'll probably put a list up on my website if many folks ask. Off to a lesson w/ Joel Nascimento... heaven!
beijinhos~
m

----------


## JEStanek

This looks like a great resouce. Will someone that has the book comment on how it lays on a table or music stand? 225 Pages is pretty thick! I doubt this will deter me. It's like a dime a page for a ton of learning materials.

Jamie

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## Avi Ziv

Good point Jamie. A few years ago Mel Bay made a poor decision with Grey Larsen's The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle book. It is absolutely impossible to keep that book open and play through it due to the size and the type of binding. I've known people to take it to Kinko's, disassemble it and re-bind with a spiral. I hope this is better. 

I'm looking forward to working with this book
Avi

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## John Craton

> This looks like a great resouce. #Will someone that has the book comment on how it lays on a table or music stand? #225 Pages is pretty thick! #


The pre-pub edition Marilynn sent me to review long ago was comb bound and lay very well on a music stand. I hope Mel Bay has opted for this binding. I haven't yet seen the "official" publication yet. I can say that this is a superb method that can be used either with a teacher (the best way to learn) or by flying solo. It is excellently arranged and pretty much self-explanatory, and her choice of exercises and selected solos are really wonderful and should fit all tastes.

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## mando.player

The Mel Bay site says the binding type is "Perfect". If the spine of the cover is not glued, the book should lay flat. I guess we'll know soon enough.

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## coletrickle

I've never understood why the do anything but spiral binding. Books for reading should have bound spines. Books for instruction or anything when at least one of your hands must be occupied with something else should be able to lay flat out of the box. 

Several of my worn books simply fall about from "breaking" the binding to get them to lay flat. Page after page as time wears on...and the new ones are quite frustrating to move from page to page until they reach a worn state. Not much sweet spot time between stiff and falling apart.

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## mando.player

I've got lots of computer books from a publisher called O'Reilly. They've got the perfect "perfect" binding. A perfect binding is where the pages and cover are glued to the spine of the book. O'Reilly doesn't glue the spine of the cover and this allows the book to lay flat. I've got an 800+ page manual that just stays open.

I like spiral binding until it starts to wear. Frayed pages and bent spirals drive me nuts. Comb bound is a little more durable, but the pages don't turn as easily.

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## John Flynn

I am pretty sure you can still take a perfect bound book to Kinko's (or probably thier competitors), and for a few bucks, they can saw off the binding, drill it and install a plastic spiral. The plastic spirals are kind of the best of both worlds. They don't get bent very easily but the pages still turn smoothly. If it is a book that you are going to use a lot, it may be worth it.

----------


## Avi Ziv

In my experience, the most convenient and lasting music books were the very thin ones - like the traditional classical violin and piano (etc) books. The binding (staples) was simple and durable. The pages turned easy and remain in place. The old music publishers would put out a series of methods instead of one large one. I wonder why this methodology could not be applied to some of the newer books? 

Avi

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## JimD

> In my experience, the most convenient and lasting music books were the very thin ones - like the traditional #classical violin and piano (etc) books. The binding (staples) was simple and durable. The pages turned easy and remain in place. The old music publishers would put out a series of methods instead of one large one. I wonder why this methodology could not be applied to some of the newer books? 
> 
> Avi


Probably because they sell thousands of volume one, dozens of volume 2, five copies of volume 3 and no copies of 4 thru 7.

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## John Flynn

> In my experience, the most convenient and lasting music books were the very thin ones - like the traditional #classical violin and piano (etc) books. The binding (staples) was simple and durable. The pages turned easy and remain in place. The old music publishers would put out a series of methods instead of one large one. I wonder why this methodology could not be applied to some of the newer books?


I think you are referring to what publishers still call "saddle stitching," a term that is a historical hold-over from the days before staples. As you mentioned, saddle stitching can only be used on thin publications, so for a book like Mair's, each chapter, or even sub-chapter, would have to be a seperate book with a seperate cover, then the whole set would have to be assembled and packaged. In the publishing production process, this would be prohibitively more work and expense than it would be worth. 

Also, as a consumer, I prefer a work to be all under one cover if possible. When I buy Mair's book, which I will do once I worked through the pile of instructional books I already have, if it comes perfect bound, I will just get it changed at Kinko's.

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## mando.player

FYI...for anyone that ordered from Bayside Press (Mel Bay). I ordered my copy on 01/02/2008 and it shipped the afternoon of 01/03/2008. I just got an email notice with the UPS tracking ID. Should arrive on Monday sometime.

----------


## surfandstrum

Same here, but mine is out for delivery today...  They ship out very quickly, which is a plus...

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## mando.player

Post back about the binding when your copy arrives.

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## Ted Eschliman

> I've never understood why the do anything but spiral binding. Books for reading should have bound spines. Books for instruction or anything when at least one of your hands must be occupied with something else should be able to lay flat out of the box.


When MB contracted me to do my Jazz Mandolin book (hopefully out later this year, it's been at the engraving department for over two years...), I requested Spiral Bound. I lost the battle because it's part of their already established "Getting Into" series, and a good share of these books end up at the Public Libraries. The libraries will not take Spiral Bound books, according to my inside people.

Also, for what it's worth, there was nothing in my contract about TAB. However, I made a personal "marketing" decision that if this as to be a "bridge" method with univeral appeal, TAB needed to be included. Also, a CD has now become the standard, although there were no demands specified. I just figured if I wanted it to sell to a broader market, TAB and CD were necessary, at least for who this project was aimed at.

----------


## surfandstrum

I just got it as I was heading off to work...I opened it and wanted to give a quick update...Well, there are no tabs, like people were discussing...It is not in a spiral binding...Thus, I'm thinking about cutting the edge off and spiraling it myself...From what I can tell is that it looks very comprehensive and will put my past knowledge of sight reading...Hope to hear more reviews...I'll take it to work and check it out more...

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## jasona

I just bought my copy too.

Perhaps we should have a "group therapy" thread for those of us working through it in the coming months?

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## John Craton

> The old music publishers would put out a series of methods instead of one large one. I wonder why this methodology could not be applied to some of the newer books?


This style of publication would not work well with Marilynn's method because after completing the "Basics" section the other four sections (Left Hand, Right Hand, Coordination, and Musicianship) should be studied concurrently. I really like the way she has introduced the various aspects of playing to be worked on simultaneously rather than consecutively. It certainly helps keep younger students from getting bored! But such an approach does mean, for the publisher, the necessity of printing everything in one volume.

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## Avi Ziv

Thanks for the explanation, John. I'm looking forward to experiencing it in person soon

Avi

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## Curtis

> Originally Posted by  (mando.player @ Jan. 02 2008, 11:20)
> 
> Technically, I believe children have a higher capacity for learning than adults. At least that's what I keep telling myself...LOL.
> 
> 
> Personally, I believe it has to more with attitude than capacity. Children are more open to new ideas and concepts than adults. Adults can be rigid and set in their ways.


I'm a bit confused what "capacity for learning" actually means. Does it mean that "learning" is like a gas tank and once it's full--you're done? Yikes! I hope not. 

Obviously, children can pick up new concepts faster than adults some times because they have no old concepts that need broken or reworked first.

But even an adult should have no problem learning to read music notation. Just buy a beginner mando/gtr/piano book and go from there. Before you know it you'll be reading more complex stuff. It really is no harder than reading tab. I look at tab and say "no thanks".

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## sboneill

I just purchased mine folks. Certainly someone has had a chance to really look through it by now. Anyone willing to share your thoughts. 

-S

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## barricwiley

I just got back from Kinkos and having a "comb" binding put on, looks like it will be much easier to use now. Acually I had no idea that this service was available so I took 4 books total in for the comb binding. The 4 books only costs $14 and change to have done, I was really suprised at the low cost. So, now I will spend some time this eve going through the whole thing and see what it is all about. I love new things.
Richard

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## gnelson651

Today I dropped off a couple of books at Office Depot to have a spiral binding put on. I do this for all my fakebooks because it makes it easier to open to a page where it will lay flat. No need for a clothespin or music clip. It costs about $2-3 per book to have it done.

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## jamface

Seems to have gone a bit quiet on this thread over the past few days. Is everyone busy trying out the new book? I do hope my copy arrives in the UK soon.

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## mando.player

I got mine yesterday. It's a pretty complete method from my point of view. I had the bind cut off and had a spiral binding put on. Since I don't know how to read notation yet, I'm working through Debora Chen's book fix that. From what I can tell, the Mair book pretty much picks up where Chen leaves off. Which is nice.

I figure the Mair book will take a year or more to get through. I'm looking forward to getting the reading skills acquired and getting to work.

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## JeffD

> Originally Posted by  (gnelson651 @ Jan. 02 2008, 11:41)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by  (mando.player @ Jan. 02 2008, 11:20)
> 
> ...


An old timer I knew as a kid (and who played banjo and fiddle) explained it to me. He said as you get older you get all kinds of ideas about how things are "supposed to be" and you get to thinking you have some knowledge. It becomes harder to learn because you have to first un-learn how you thought things were supposed to be and you have to admit you are ignorant - putting you two steps behind the kids right from the start.

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## Jim MacDaniel

That makes sense, but I think it goes hand in hand with the differences between the growing brain of a child, and a mature brain or one in decline due to age. The way I understand it is, since kid's brains are still growing, they have better neuroplasticity that do we with older brains -- meaning that their brains can more quickly create new "circuits" to support new skills that they are learning. (Is there a neurosurgeon in the house?  )

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## Bob DeVellis

Surprisingly, a big part of what kids' brains also do is sever connections. Think of a kid's brain like a new computer just shipped from a large retailer. Many of the programs that will eventually be critical are not yet on the system and, in addition, many that are not needed or wanted may be there by default. In addition to loading new "software," the kid's brain learns to delete all the stuff he/she doesn't need (i.e., circuits that go unused), which frees up capacity for new circuits to form.

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## Jim MacDaniel

I've heard that (the "delete function") as well in the context of language skills: children learn new languages very easily but quickly forget them when not used, while adults find it more of a challenge to learn a new language but tend to retain them longer.

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## Ken Olmstead

I started working in this book a couple days ago. My resolution this year was to learn standard notation and explore styles other than bluegrass and fiddle tunes. I would consider myself an intermediate player. It is great not having any tab! I never noticed before how much my eye would drift to the tab while trying to play the notation. Starting to read notation with this book is working out great, it is sufficiently progressive in my opinion. She covers technique in a formal manner and I can't wait to hear how my tremelo improves as it has extensive use of it. She is quite particular as to what picks to use, no rounded Dawg picks here. Only pointy, slender picks that are thick enough to drive the top. She argues that anything else will compromise brightness and as your technique improves you will have a greater tonal palete. Her point is well taken after some experimentation. I laughed however when I noticed the picture on the back of the book. She is holding her really cool mandolin and the pick wedged in between the strings looks to be tortise and of a shape even the Dawg would be proud of!! Any way tons of information and a really well done book. The included CD is so great just to listen to and I have several times! My hat is off to her and I am really looking forward to maybe being able to refer to myself as an advanced player after working on the gobs of material in this book Direction at last!!

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## mando.player

I'm in the same position as tenorbanjoguy and am working towards this method for the same reasons. It should be a fun ride.

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## MLT

> I've heard that (the "delete function") as well in the context of language skills: children learn new languages very easily but quickly forget them when not used, while adults find it more of a challenge to learn a new language but tend to retain them longer.


That is so true. When I was 4 I spoke Spanish fluently (English was the language of my home) with all of my neighbors. But now, although I understand more than the average non-spanish speaker it's a stretch.

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## MLT

Based on this discussion I just ordered my copy from Elderly...As soon as it arrives it is off to Kinko's for comb binding job.

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## Ken Olmstead

Had my copy spiral bound at KINKOs for $5.48 and what a difference! I have other books that are bound this way and I take them for granted. I have changed my pick (not quite what she would recommend but more in that direction), got my wrist off the bridge, and am now sight reading with a metronome set on 54!!! Look mom, I'm maturing!!!

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## Jim Garber

Interesting... I wonder why MelBay did not spiral bind it originally. I have quite a few of their books that were produced that way. A 224 pager can be quite unwieldy esp used as a method book.

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## AlanN

Yep, the Jethro compilation book (2 previously-issued books into 1) is spiraled. Makes it a snap to use.

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## Tim

I don't know the printing/binding technology/terminology. #When you say spiral bound, I think of the notebooks from my childhood with a single wire spiraling through the holes. #Is that what you are doing or is it the plastic comb-like binding?

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## AlanN

I am thinking of the coiled wire going top to bottom. The plastic comb is also an option, but I think it doesn't work as well. If you have Tom Ohmsen's books, this is what is used there and it gets a bit flaky over time.

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## gnelson651

> I don't know the printing/binding technology/terminology. #When you say spiral bound, I think of the notebooks from my childhood with a single wire spiraling through the holes. #Is that what you are doing or is it the plastic comb-like binding?


I have my books spiral bound like the spiral notebooks. Usually the music book is slightly longer than the sprial binding but it still works.

This binding allows the book to stay open flat without having to use something to hold it open or creasing the bookbinding to make it lay flat.

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## mando.player

tenorbanjoguy...

What pick did you end up going with? I couldn't find the Fender pick she recommends, so I ended up with a Dunlop Tortex. It's pointy and smaller than a regular guitar pick. It is a bit bigger than the Fender Jazz pick she shows. I estimated the thickness and went with a 1.14mm.

I'm still working on the left and right hand techniques a bit, but it's starting to come along. I've got some habits to break on my left hand, but my right is falling into place.

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## Ken Olmstead

Charlie, I am using a Wegen Blugrass pick. It has a beveled pointed tip but is thicker than she would recommend. It is soooo hard to break the tortise habit...that stuff is like crack!! Plastic sounds dull in comparison, really notice it on the bass side. However, there is a lot less clicking against the strings which my wife says is a good thing. I was playing with 2 mm tortise and very over size. I am enjoying the improved accuracy. I could not find the Fender or Gibson picks she recommended either, but a Fender Heavy is probably still under 1 mm maybe a .88mm. I found the tortex as you did but I am going through a 12 step process to appreciate those!!  Thanks, Ken

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## JeffD

Are the inside (spine side) margins wide enough to allow a spiral re-binding without cutting into anything?

I can't wait to get one.

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## Ken Olmstead

> Are the inside (spine side) margins wide enough to allow a spiral re-binding without cutting into anything?


Yes they are. It looks factory original when its done.

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## mando.player

I had mine done at Kinko's and it turned out better than I expected. If it wears out down the road I'll probably just scan it into a PDF or something. If I do in fact wear out the book, I guess that would mean I put it to good use

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## Jeff Hildreth

This is the first Mandolin tutorial #purchased since I quit playing in 1994. #I was a standard notation and TAB player but preferred standard notation given the universality of the system
I owned many of the older tutorials from Bickford and Cristofaro the Cotten and many other obscure authors.

I received my copy of the "Complete Mandolinist" a couple days ago. #Mel Bay.. 3 days...

First I will state I am a long time fan of Marilynn Mair...enjoy her playing and her writing.

I have only made a cursory look through the book.. but I am confused as there are times when I think the book is directed at readers who have some theory and playing experience and places where it apperars the text is directed at those who have limited experience...and I mean throughout the book.

I also found places where I thought the information was "cart before the horse".. meaning that a subject was introduced with no explanaiton then at a later date there was an explanation.


And.. the biggie... there is a part where the information appears to be #incorrect...page 34 #second paragraph

Fingering and number of frets covered by one finger.. and the comparison of mandolin to guitar as one being "diatonic" and the other "chromatic" defies all definitions of diatonic and chromatic

The way an instrument is fingered has nothing whatever to do with diatonic and chromatic

Both instruments are fully chromatic... and can be diatonic with the right position (fret/note) selection.

I feel this would raise an issue with lesser experienced musicians and create an unnecessary confusion.

I'll give the book a more thorough read later when I have the time.

I think some of the word choices and language are a bit too time period (too in the moment/modern and perhaps will be historically temporary)

A fine effort and very welcomed... thanks to Marilynn for her contribution.

And a special thanks for playing and photographing a "proper" mandolin suited to the work : )


Jeff

RIP Norman Levine

PS

a music tutorial (or any tutorial) #not spiral bound is contemptuous/disrespectful of the student/user/customer. #

spiral bind them and add a couple bucks...

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## harper

About the pick Marilynn recommends: I also had trouble finding the Fender, but finally did in a local music store. However, at SummerKeys last June I took my 1.5 mm Dunlop Gater Grip standard guitar picks. Marilynn liked them and recommended merely reshaping them to the small pick size, which meant trimming the width down. These picks are sold by Music 123 here.

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## Ken Olmstead

Harper, did she speak or expand on why the slender shape. I assume a greater control of angle and tone. Since you were up close and personal, did she expand on her pick selection reasoning? The pointed tip I get as it mimics the sound obtained with the classical quill feather picks and tremolo feel. Anyway, if she conveyed her thoughts there, a couple of us are exploring this section of the book at this time and would be interested in anything you could add. Thanks.

----------


## Jkf_Alone

I just browsed over this thread, but it seems to me that Jeff H is the only one to give a review of the BOOK. can anyone else give some opinions of the method?

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## CraigF

> tenorbanjoguy...
> 
> What pick did you end up going with? I couldn't find the Fender pick she recommends, so I ended up with a Dunlop Tortex. It's pointy and smaller than a regular guitar pick. It is a bit bigger than the Fender Jazz pick she shows. I estimated the thickness and went with a 1.14mm.


I use the Dunlop Tortex 1.00 mm sharp point. I found a Pettine pick on e-bay, which is her favorite. I measured it and it is 0.97 mm. I trim the Dunlops to fit the shape of the Pettine.

----------


## CraigF

Jeff H,

What she means by Diatonic vs Chromatic is this. Guitars are one finger per fret (chromatic). If the next note in the scale is 2 frets away, you skip a finger. Mandolin (Diatonic) on the other hand, each finger plays the next note of the diatonic scale. No skipping fingers.

It is a generalization, yes. But it outlines the basic difference.

----------


## harper

Tenorbanjoguy: In the first class at Summerkeys, Marilynn asked us all to show her which picks we used. She recommended the small, teardrop-shaped Fender pick. She did not recommend the small jazz pick, because it is not flexible enough. She also likes Pettine picks, which are long and slender, but they are no longer made and hard to get. We spent part of every class on pick technique, and my perception was that the small, somewhat flexible, thick pick allowed good control of tone in up and down strokes, as you suggested, and it could be done with the pick held loosely (very important). The slender shape allowed greater flexibility than a wide pick. Marilynn's well-stated explanation of pick selection for tremolo is as follows (from her website):

"First, you need to buy a small heavy pick -- Fender picks are good, Gibson's are a bit on the light side, but OK. This pick is not the traditional guitar-sized number, it really is called a "small". The pick should have a modicum of flex: the tiny inflexible jazz picks don't work well either. And you need to be sure the pick has a good point. You might even want to file the pick down a bit to make it skinnier and pointier. Why? Well, the pick has to be heavy so it's firm enough to set your strings in motion with enough force to move the body of your instrument to produce a good, warm "body" tone. But it has to be slightly flexible so the string can move the pick in your hand as the pick moves the string, giving you a smooth sound. It has to be small enough so you can have good control without hanging on too tight. And it has to have a point so you strike the string at a precise place to create a clear vibration pattern."

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## Ken Olmstead

Thanks Harper. That answers my question fully. Sorry to all if this has become too much of a pick selection thread. Marylynn does seem to address the pick selection issue far more than anyone I have heard and I just wanted to completely understand her reasoning on the topic. Thanks for your input and indulgence.

----------


## mandogerry

I just got my book, too, and I can see I will be very busy over the next few months or so.....

There are still a few Pettine picks at one seller on *bay. However, they would cost $10 for one pick after you throw in shipping. Think I'll just experiment with my $1 or so pick collection and some sandpaper. I have several old Cool picks that are a compact and pointed triangle (with a rough grip, which I like), and they were only 75 cents each at my local shop. They might meet the flexible yet sturdy test.

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## Bryon Winger

Just ordered my copy today - the later parts of this thread have me very excited! Looking forward to improving my sight reading skills too.

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## CraigF

> There are still a few Pettine picks at one seller on *bay. However, they would cost $10 for one pick after you throw in shipping. Think I'll just experiment with my $1 or so pick collection and some sandpaper. I have several old Cool picks that are a compact and pointed triangle (with a rough grip, which I like), and they were only 75 cents each at my local shop. They might meet the flexible yet sturdy test.


Here is a scan of my Pettine Pick. Print out at 300 dpi, and you should get the exact size.

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## Ken Olmstead

Thanks CraigF, that is a really cool idea!! I was trying my hand this evening with the dremel tool but not having much luck. I will try your shape and let you know how it goes!

----------


## CraigF

> Thanks CraigF, that is a really cool idea!! I was trying my hand this evening with the dremel tool but not having much luck. I will try your shape and let you know how it goes!


Dremel was my first try as well. But, I found a sharp pair of scissors, to get the bulk trimmed. Then, an emory board to finish it off works quite well.

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## mando.player

I traced the outline on a couple of picks and used the Dremel with the cutting wheel to get the bulk off. Then I filed it down and buffed it out. Now I have a Clayton Delerin 1mm and a Dunlop Ultex 1.14mm at my disposal. I like the Ultex a little better.

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## gnelson651

I played classical, Italian and Celtic music for about two years when I was in the Las Vegas Mandoliers. I found that the Wegen M150 was a great pick for this type of music. I could get an excellent tremelo with this pick. In fact, after I let the other members of the Mandoliers try the Wegen, they all bought one to use. 

I have since moved on and I am now heavy into bluegrass. I found the Wegan M150 harder to hold as I tried to pull more volume out of my mandolin. I switch to the Wegan TF140 which is a larger pick and has finger holes. I find I can get greater volume and hold onto the pick much easier because of both the size and the finger holes.

I believe that pick choice can depend on many factors, including the demand of the type of music played.

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## meem

Queridos-- You do not know how happy it makes me to hear y'all going on about my book. This is EXACTLY why I wanted to write it. The mando world needs these sorts of discussions about substantial musical things. But be careful about taking everything I write as literal gospel (or what anyone writes or says for that matter). Experiment! I tried to be a bit playful about the pick thing by including a picture of one that I cut from my old Blue Cross card :-) Notice that there is a ruler in the pick example photo. Just get some sissors and cut down any heavy pick. Then sand it w/ that black sandpaper you can get in a hardware store & finish by buffing it on leather (your shoe or belt will do). The point is needed for a precise tone, and is crucual for a good clear tremolo. RE: the big one stuck in the neck of my mando on the back cover-- It was one Joel Nasciment gave me @ my lesson that day & I hadn't cut it down yet. Checking out the sound for choro. I'm in Rio now, but will try to check into this thread from time to time. So onward, have fun-- e boa sorte!
m

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## Ken Olmstead

How cool is the time we live in? The author of the book we are discussing is able to drop in on us and be part of the conversation, while she is Rio no less!! At 41 years old, personal computers have been around my whole adult life and I am still amazed at the progress! Thanks for the encouragement Marilynn! It is not just the content of a book or method that counts it is whether or not it inspires one to action. Speaking for myself, mission accomplished!

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## guitharsis

Wow, didn't find this thread until today. #Actually ordered the book yesterday! #I'm going back to read over all of the comments. It is amazing that the author was able to drop in and comment too. #Thanks, Marilyn and thanks for all of your hard work compiling this book.

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## mandosis

My copy just arrived in the mail!!

This is better than Christmas morning!

Thanks to those who clued me in to getting it spiral bound at an office supply store - I think I need to make a trip into Rochester or Buffalo tomorrow. Today I'm reading and practicing  

Thank you Ms. Mair -- I have been anxiously waiting for your book for many months. I am sure I will be reading it cover to cover: a book combined with music, life sure is good.

Vicky

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## Jeff Hildreth

CraigF

I appreciate the reply to the "diatonic/chromatic" #comments and I fully understand your explanation

however

that is NOT the defintion of diatonic and chromatic #and some of us play both guitar and mandolin with successive fingering on both and or skip frets

I stand that it is a confusing comment # 
and fingering still has zip all to do with the definition of either diatonic or chromatic

Hi Marilynn, 
I noticed you posted

Could you kindly give us your comments on the diatonic/chromatic topic,,,

thanks

Jeff



Oh, the requisite instrument list ( caveat #I currently do not #own many of these, they have gone to new homes)

Seiffert #flatback/flattop mandolin
Seiffert flattop/flat back tenor American CGDA tenor mandola (dissapointing after an 8 month wait.. poor sound and not appointed as ordered)
1915 Gibson A
Gibson Snakehead... Dec 1922
1958 ish Gibson Em150 (I believe)
Givens A-3 (genuine deal and much better than my costlier A-6) 
Givens A-6 (genuine deal.. ok #but I had played better.. nut width narrowly ridiculous like an Eastman..virtually unplayble)
Washburn 2 point custom made for Jethro Burns and Purchased from Chet Atkins.. an outstanding instrument.. I left it with low action med strings..superb
Teens Washburn Bowl Back #my great aunts
Another teens Washburn Bowl Back.. another from another great aunt 
Kay mando
Martin #Custom made all koa and Pearl and ebony A style diamonds and snowflake inlays( total dog , #custom shop should not have sent this out)
Self made A style
Self made Octave mandolin
Self Made F style
Self made Mandocello
Dottsauer (sp) bowl back mandolin (top of the line)
Dottsauer (sp) Portugiese semi bowl back "Club Model"
Washburn Jethro Burns top of the line F with herringbone #Japanese made 1979 #.. simply outstanding.. Tiny Moore thought so as well... 
Tacoma #M #something acoustic Electric.. good bolt on neck bang around #paid $119 #at GC blowout #retail was a grand 
Joao Bautista Bandolim # Brazilian Rosewood....niggling fit and finish problems loud and fun 
Red Diamond A style (thin flappy sound and sloppy workmanship very disappointing after a long wait around 1999 ?) 
Early Harmony A style

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## JeffD

> that is NOT the defintion of diatonic and chromatic #and some of us play both guitar and mandolin with successive fingering on both and or skip frets


I think it fine to apply diatonic and chromatic to the way of placing fingers on the instrument, acknowledging fully that both instruments are, as instruments, fully chromatic.

It makes sense to me.

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## harper

Here are some picks for comparison. Im sorry there is so much glare, but you can get an idea of their shapes and sizes.
Top row: Dunlop Gator Grip 1.5 mm untrimmed, Golden Gate Dawg-type pick, penny
Bottom row: Dunlop Gator Grip 1.5 mm trimmed, Pettine, Fender Heavy, Dunlop Tortex 1.14 mm.

I trimmed the Gator Grip pick in the manner described above by Marilynn, and this is a nice pick. I made it about the same shape as the Fender Heavy except that I did not trim its length. I also made it more pointed than the Fender Heavy. It is a good deal thicker than the Fender Heavy, which I estimate is less than 0.9 mm thick (without micrometer). The Tortex is a very nice shape for me and I like the non-slick feel of it, but it is very stiff. The Pettine is the thinnest, most pointed, and most flexible of the lot. I have not used it yet (until I am a better player).

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## meem

Yeah, JeffH-- Craig & JeffD have it right-- and it's not a new idea to me. but you asked me to reply so I will. Guitar is played (and taught) so your LH plays w/ one finger per fret. So a guitarist's fingers always keep the same relationship to each other. Mandolin (& violin) play w/ one finger per scale note. So the LH fingers of the mandolinist to have to constantly readjust between 2 or 3 possible places to be on the fingerboard in relationship to the other LH fingers. In the book I was talking about this need to differentiate, and how you have to train your fingers to do this quickly & accurately. I used the terms diatonic & chromatic in relationship to the fingering patterns, not the instruments-- guitar is chromatic because the fingers are always 1-fret apart, and mandolin is diatonic, because each finger is responsible for one scale tone & its +/- (mandolin: A-string, 1st position, the 3rd finger plays D, Db & D# all 3 notes, all 3 frets-- that's diatonic fingering. The guitarist would use 3 fingers-- that's chromatic fingering.) Beautiful day here- 3 hours ahead of my usual East Coast time zone. I played in a muito legal (very cool) roda today @ Praca Sao Salvador & right now I'm sitting on my balcony typing this just as the sun is setting. it'll be hard to leave & go back to the snow.
tchau~
m

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## mandosis

This may be a really dumb question, but......

Michel Wegen makes picks, he will make custom picks if you know what to ask for. 

Would a "Pettine-shaped pick" work with the type of material Michel Wegen uses? As a beginner, I certainly do not know enough about picks or mandolins to accurately describe what is needed, but does anyone here have any constructive suggestions about such an idea? 

The Wegen picks I have are 1.5mm and pretty stiff; would a thinner and narrower pick (same material) have that "solid but flexible" characteristic Marilynn Mair suggests?

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## Jeff Hildreth

Thanks for the reply Marilynn

That will be the first time I have seen that explanation of the fingering ..and the terms diatonic and chromatic applied to the method of fingering

I understand the explanation.. however..( again) I believe it is confusing and is not the definition of diatonic or chromatic

( I believe that the comparison of the mandolin and guitar fingering was unneccesary...it assumes the reader is a guitar player)

The example of the A string with three adjacent notes being played is truly the beginning of a fully chromatic scale.. no matter what fingers are used

 I showed this to an experienced violinist who thought that this was confusing

I understand the use of one finger for adjacent strings... as did this violinist... and played that way for many years
but never have I seen this called "diatonic"

I accept the explanation but my atrophied brain simply cannot let go of 40 plus years of another definition of diatonic and chromatic

Diatonic by definition would be the notes ONLY found in a specific scale...( nothing to do with fingering)
chromatic would add notes not in the scale 
or a chromatic scale would be every note.. naturals and sharps ( or flats)

My neighbor and (famous to some)veteran classical guitar player, Segovia student of many years ( one of the genuine few) Concert touring and CD puibished foremr classical guitar department head of well known university etc  has never heard the one finger one note guitar fingering referred to as "chromatic" fingering.

I appreciate the explanation.. I believe it is a difference of terminology and will let it go....truly a mnior point in a very well written and large work

Thanks 

Jeff

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## meem

Aiii-- querido-- and down the rabbit hole we go... I'm not here to debate. I stick by my choice, sorry it doesn't work for you & your friends. Just play the notes cleanly.
beijinhos~
m

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## surfandstrum

Unbelievable...Monday Morning Quarterbacking a professional and professor (shouldn't these type of critiques be taken off-line rather than soap-boxing in a public forum?)... 

Great Job Marilynn!!

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## Ken Olmstead

Well put surfandstrum. Today I begin the lessons on Tremolo. I am sight reading at the amazing rate of 1/4 =68 bps! My ADD is making it a LONG process. I can concentrate for a few minutes then I start noodleing for a half hour then back at it but I am gaining on it anyway. It will improve soon though. Once you get throught the Basics section, the book is designed to work the other sections at the same time. So I will be able to bounce between left hand scale studies, right hand picking work ( if I can't make the switch to a pointy pick does that make me a bad person?) Coordination exercises and finally beautiful tunes to play. Now that is the stuff that creates an ADD heaven!

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## mando.player

Until I get my reading up to snuff, I'm spending my spare time working on my technique. You can only practice reading for so long.

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## Jim Garber

Best Music Source has Pettine picks for sale. Make sure tho that they are the larger of the two varieties.

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## August Watters

> The Wegen picks I have are 1.5mm and pretty stiff; would a thinner and narrower pick (same material) have that "solid but flexible" characteristic Marilynn Mair suggests?


I used to use the lighter Wegen picks, which do have the flex you need. Still there were two problems: excessive pick noise, and lack of overtones. I used to think of this as a "warmer" sound, but Marilynn pointed out to me with correct right hand technique you can learn to produce any type of tone. If you take a short cut with a "warmer" sounding pick, you're trading off brilliance -- and your right hand won't develop the same level of technique to coax both bright and warm sounds from your instrument. Better to go with a pick that can produce all types of tone, and work on learning to control it!

August W

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## robbyford

Hello everyone. I'll start by saying that I plan on ordering this book soon and hope this discussion can continue to help us all improve as mandolinists. My comment is in regards to the pick discussion. Though there have been many threads on this subject I have never heard any mention of the Fender "california clears." In my first year of playing I tried just about every kind of pick out there; rounded, pointy, thick, thin, and I finally arrived at the dawg pick or golden gate variety. I was completely stubborn about it. All pointy picks just sounded awful to me. 
  Then one day a friend of mine gave me an old box of picks and in it was a fender heavy that looked competely different. I started playing with the shoulder and found that it gave me the fat tone of the dawg pick plus more control because it was thinner. Then on a lark I tried using the pointed edge and it sounded the same but with even more control and dynamic range. I have since been playing with these and my technique has been able to develope much easier over the years.
   I don't want this to sound like an endorsement and I have no ties to fender at all. However the califonia clears are sold at Elderly and cost no more than the regular fender heavys. They're stiff but flexible, and slighly glossy but not like a D'Andrea. While no pick can substitute for solid right hand technique these allowed me to focus on technique rather than the pick. And they even come in neon pink  :Wink:

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## John Hill

> Unbelievable...Monday Morning Quarterbacking a professional and professor (shouldn't these type of critiques be taken off-line rather than soap-boxing in a public forum?)... 
> 
> Great Job Marilynn!!


Exactly. I've sat bemused and befuddled over the whole international affair that has become _The Diatonic/Chromatic Incident_. What people will fixate on never ceases to amaze.

The Diatonic/Chromatic Incident. Sounds like a bad Robert Ludlum book...

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## Tim

Just so I don't make the same mistake, how many years of being a professional and professor does someone have to have before they are exempt from evaluation by their customers and/or potential customers?

Don't get me wrong, I have no idea about any of this stuff but it seemed that the question was asked in a reasonably polite manner. #A quick search of music definitions on the internet certainly seems to indicate that these are terms that have multiple variations in definiton.

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## pickloser

I agree with Tim. The chromatic/diatonic complaint was well-put and polite. I don't think Prof. Mair will lose any sleep over it, especially since her book is selling so well.

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## mando.player

I think it was the "Thanks for your response, but I still think you're wrong" reply that might have set some folks off. I agree that the initial question was fine.

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## mandosis

Jim and August,

Thank you for responding to my pick related question, Your information is quite helpful and I believe I will order a Pettine pick. It will have a much different sound initially (vs. my current triangle pick), but in the long run it seems only logical to focus on developing a range of technical skills. I will act on faith that I will be able to eventually get "warm" sounds with it!


robbyford, 

Thanks for your suggestion re: the california clears. I have never heard of them, but as Marilynn commented, exploration is a good thing. 

Vicky

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## BradB

I got my copy and had it spiral bound. I think Marilynn is right that this book will keep me busy for a long time. I thought I'd just breeze through the basics section, but I'm finding that some of my basics need work, especially tremelo.

I had been playing more clawhammer banjo lately, but this book has motivated me to start playing the mando more regularly again. Thanks, Marilynn.

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## AlanN

> Thanks for your suggestion re: the california clears. #I have never heard of them,


Maybe Barry Bonds has  

I think Marilyn's book is the cat's meow.

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## guitharsis

Just checked with ebay seller, Best Music Source, and the Pettine picks they have are the smaller ones. They don't have any of the larger Pettine picks at this time.

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## meem

The small Pettine's are the ones I use on mandolin. I use the big ones on mandola. But really you can just take a green or purple pick w/ the alligator on them (can you tell I'm not a tech-head? :-) and cut them a bit narrower w/ sissors & sand them down. The Pettine picks are about 80 years old-- hence so rare-- & are made of a defunct plastic. I sent some to an engineer to analyze & just maybe the outcome will be a new version. Time (lots of it so far) will tell. Sunny & beautiful in Rio today. I'm going to hear Deo & Bruno Rian play Jacob tonight-- doesn't get much better than that!
bjs.
m

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## guitharsis

Thanks Marilynn. I ordered a couple of the small Pettine picks from Best Music Source. They still have a couple of them left.
Enjoy your time in Rio!

Doreen

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## MLT

I got my copy on Wednesday and already have it spiral bound. I see I have a long way to go to get an understanding of reading standard notation, but as I have read here on the Cafe many, many times it will be worth it. I also have one of the Pettine Picks on order but my plan is to use it as a template to make others--

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## mando.player

Since MLT mentioned getting his reading skills up to par, I figured I would report back with how I'm doing on the Chen book.

I'm taking it easy, basically 1 week per string. Since this is my first week (D string) it's not too bad. I think the real test will come next week when I have to review the past material (D string) and learn the new material (A string).

So far I like how Chen approaches learning to read. In addition to "these are the notes on the D string" excercises, she stresses recognition of scale and interval patterns. For me, these are a big help. The book starts off with a clever first position tip. Notes that fall on the lines are fretted with fingers 1 and 3. Notes that fall between the lines are either open or fretted with fingers 2 and 4. It's tips like these that help give that little extra reminder when you're sight reading at 60bpm 

Anyhow, I though just learning notation would not be enough to fill my mando time. That's not the case. Between warm-ups, technique practice (I'm un-doing some stuff  ) and Chen's material I'm taking up about an hour. If there is time left I'll just play tunes. It'll be interesting to see where I'm at when the 4 or 5 weeks is up.

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## 2manytendons

I've had my M.M. book for about a week now and I solved the binding issue with two very big rubber bands (ones left over from those sponge shoulder rests). #I bent the book open as best I could at a few spots, then set it on the music stand, then the rubber bands go vertical over each page and the stand. #So far, aside from holding my pick in my mouth to turn pages with both hands, it's working well. :Smile:  

My problem comes from relearning my picking technique. #I was taught by a former fiddler who didn't have any particular how-to, so I kinda figured it out myself, but I have tendon problems (intersection syndrome) in both hands, so I'm still trying to see if I can play more comfortably. #I keep telling myself, "relax, relax, relax!"

The book is great. #I already know how to read music, so that's not a problem, and the material is quite varied. #Elderly got it to me in about two or three days. #Already my Breedlove seems to sound so much better!

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## mandosis

The book is great, but I also find myself simply listening to the CD. It's lovely music. Listening to expressive and cleanly played music is a joy.  

I guess Marilynn has practiced a bit, huh?

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## jasona

My copy just arrived! I was surprised to see that the binding can allow for the book to be opened flat, and am rethinking whether it will be necessary to spiral bind (I hate that) it.

More when I get a chance to go over it in more detail. Looks a winner however!

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## Don Christy

Got mine last week and immediately had it spiral bound (which is working out great). I'm really enjoying the book. I spent a little time before getting it with some mandozine notation flash card work and now I'm reading first position reasonably well. So far the book seems great. I haven't listened to the CD yet though. Need to break it out next. 
Don

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## guitharsis

Received the book Friday and had it spiral bound immediately.
Well worth the $3  
The CD is a joy to listen to. I've played it many times. I love the way Marilynn plays, totally controlled but with so much feeling and passion.
I do read music but have to work on hand positioning etc.

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## MLT

I got my copy last week and immediatley spiral bound (like guitharsis said "Well workth the $3  ")#My progress is slow but steady. #

I also ordered one of those Pettine Picks that were available from Best Music (through eBay). #It came yesterday. #Wow! #What a difference. #I have estimated that it is a .63 mm #and need to find a micrometer to be sure, afterwhich I will be attempting fabrication of more so I can put the expensive one away--before I loose it.

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## CraigF

> I also ordered one of those Pettine Picks that were available from Best Music (through eBay). It came yesterday. Wow! What a difference. I have estimated that it is a .63 mm and need to find a micrometer to be sure, afterwhich I will be attempting fabrication of more so I can put the expensive one away--before I loose it.


It's 0.97 according to my micrometer.

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## MLT

Great! #Thanks. #I am off to the store to get picks...  Oh, I better wait until they open.

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## Don Christy

I cut down a couple of dunlop ultex after receiving my Pettine. They are 1.0mm and 1.14 mm respectively. I haven't filed/polished the edges yet, so I don't know how they will compare. The pettine is quite interesting though compared to the large triangle styles I've been used to.
DOn

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## JeffD

My copy of the said book should be arriving early next week. I can't wait to dive in. If it means that my playing can eventually bear any resemblance to the playing of MM, you will have to peel me off the ceiling I'll be so happy.

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## mandogerry

Perhaps I am being too "picky" and should just get deeper into MM's wonderful book. But this week I started playing around with my toybox of Picks Through The Ages. Lo and behold, the Cool Picks Juratex picks I had overlooked for a while are not only a small pointed triangle shape, but they also have a rough sanded grip, so I don't drop them while sweating over mm's arpeggios. I got mine a long time ago at my local shop for 75 cents or so each. Elderly also sells them. The thin gauge or medium seem to be in the mm ballpark. 

Inspired by this success, I then took one of my Fender Heavy California Clear picks, the kind that robbyford mentioned a while back. Once upon a time I bought a dozen of these in assorted colors from a guy on *Bay for about $4, so I sacrificed my least favorite color and cut it to the Cool Pick size and shape with kitchen scissors. It came out pretty smooth without any other tools involved. 

Now, if the rest of the method were so easy....:D

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## mandogerry

Oops, I just saw on Elderly that there are two kinds of Juratex picks. Mine are the jazz pick, not the guitar pick.

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## norseman

> Here is a scan of my Pettine Pick. Print out at 300 dpi, and you should get the exact size.


My printer only has 600 or 400 dpi. If I still print at 600 dpi but scale it to 50%, will that do the same thing? I tried that, but it still looks pretty big - 1 3/4 inches on the paper.

Thanks,
Bob

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## meem

queridos-- I'm giving a workshop on my method & a week-end workshop on mandolin Feb. 29 - Mar. 2. Scott has more info up here &lt;http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/pub...0777.shtml&gt; 
hope y'all can come!
m

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## CraigF

> My printer only has 600 or 400 dpi. If I still print at 600 dpi but scale it to 50%, will that do the same thing? I tried that, but it still looks pretty big - 1 3/4 inches on the paper.


The pic size at 300 dpi is 0.677" W X 1.3" H. Your software may do dpi conversion. The gif file I posted comes up as 72 dpi in Photoshop. If you PM me your email, I can send you a 600 dpi TIFF file.

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## Philip Higgins

I couldn't order her book quick enough. I ordered it through amazon.com and I think the charge for sending it to me in the U.K is very reasonable.
                   Philip Higgins.

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## billkilpatrick

just had my copy of the m.m booklet bound with a spiral binding - so that it lays flat on the table. never would have thought of it if i hadn't followed this thread. grazie mille!

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## gnelson651

I think I'll take a bye of MM's book, atleast for now. I've been really concentrating on BG improvisation and BG mandolin in general.

 I'm not ready to be distracted to go back to classical playing. After about a year from when I started playing the mandolin ( four years now), I was in a mandolin ensemble for several years where we played classical music, along with Itailian and Celtic. Perhaps when I become more proficient at playing bluegrass mandolin, I'll think about returning to classical playing. 

Good luck to those of you who have started on this journey.  Keep us posted on your progress.

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## JeffD

My copy of the book came in today. I have been poking around in it all evening. I am having a lot of fun pushing (slogging) through the Vivaldi. 

I am going to go back to the beginning of the book and move forward systematically as a routine part of my practice.

The section on musicianship is really worth reading. Really, really. MM nails it, IMO, the difference between playing a tune, and playing music. That chapter alone is worth the price of the whole book, in terms of what it is going to inspire me to attempt.

I don't doubt that the book has the potential to make a difference in all of our playing, all of us, regardless of our present ability and regardless of the musical genre we play. I think that working through The Complete Mandolinist has every bit as much, and likely a lot more power to improve our playing than blind emulation of [insert your mandolin hero here]. (OK I am going to get shot for that, but it is my opinion.)

MM thanks again for writing the book, I wish you a lot of success with it. I will see if I can make the workshop end of this month.

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## 2manytendons

Am I missing something, or is it an error?

pg.75 - In exercise 5 it says that you're going from 1st position on the D-string to 4th position on the G-string - shouldn't that be to 5th position? #I see in the next two lines she has another version of the exercise which says you're going from 5th to 1st. #My fingers end up on the same frets both times, wouldn't they be the same position?

I have been skipping about the book, trying not to get into too much tremolo yet. #I have played the violin for many years so reading the notes is not a problem, but the picking is still a new task to master! #I really like the variety of material and the advice - earlier posters are right - well worth reading. #I also like the pictures of her sitting and showing how to hold the pick and mando. #It has helped to ease some right hand pain from earlier tendonitis problems(not associated with playing).

----------


## JeffD

> I have been skipping about the book, trying not to get into too much tremolo yet.


I think the method of learning to tremolo presented in Marilynn's book is really good, and should lead a lot of folks into it without a lot of pain.

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## Mandobar

marilyn's book is first and foremost about technique and learning "the neck". #i am working with todd collins (no stranger to bluegrass there) on parts of the book along with deborah chen's bach inventions along with bill monroe style playing.......marilyn's exercises have helped me improve my finger dexterity immensely over the past 6 weeks.

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## JeffD

I have xeroxed the pages in the section on coordination exercises, and made myself a separate practice notebook.

----------


## Rick Schmidlin

Just bought mine today

----------


## kudzugypsy

so how is the method?? how does it differ from the old methods? is it just scales and shifting, etc.. i'd like to know

i've been interested in hearing about it for months and all i see here is 5 pages of how its bound and where to buy a bigger pick

----------


## Jonathan Peck

I've had the book for several weeks. I've not worked in it, but I've gone through it from cover to cover several times. There isn't alot of dialog in the book. It appears to be alot of scales and exercises as you suspect. 

Take this at face value as I personally don't like to work in books from cover to cover, and this one would take months/year. On the whole, it does look like a good resource to have for the classically inclined player. It appears to be very comprehensive in building left and right hand technique through a course of study that also builds up your musical vocabulary - ie. scales, arpeggios, shifting and position playing, and time signatures that you will encounter in master works in the classical repetoire.

for example, she might take a scale, or scale intervals and put it in an odd time signature so that you are also working on building picking technique. The book appears to be progressive in nature getting more challenging on the picking hand as you progress.

As Emiril might say, she takes scales and adds a little POW! BAM!

If my memory serves me correctly, the first part of the book deals with the left hand. The next section with the right hand, and I believe it concludes with numerous duet pieces for which alot are recorded on an included CD. She also does get into more advanced right hand picking patterns and time signatures as you advance through the pages. This book will take a very large commitment by any individual who will try and work through it from cover to cover.

----------


## Don Christy

I was just on Mel Bay's site and see that this book is now offered with a DVD.

Anyone tried the DVD yet?
Don

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## barricwiley

Is it possible you looked at the the "complete Mandolin Method" and not the "Complete Mandolinist"?
Richard

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## Don Christy

> Is it possible you looked at the the "complete Mandolin Method" and not the "Complete Mandolinist"?
> Richard


... oops. It would appear that's precisely what I did. AND I have the MM book already. 

Thanks for catching that.
Don

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## barricwiley

You're welcome. The CD is nice-but-a DVD would be pretty durn great wouldn't it? Wonder if she ever thought about it.
Enjoy the weekend all.
Richard

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## Jonathan Peck

As to not let this book become 'the best book I'll never use', I've decided to start working through it. While I did not take my copy to Kinko's to have it bound, I was able to safely deploy two clothespins to good effect.

I'll try and post and update after I work through the first section.

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## Dragonflyeye

I've been playing mandolin for a huge total of about 4 months now, and have had the MM book and CD for about a month. Making progress though, and I really look forward to working through the program. I love the way the book is laid out, and how rigorous it is. (Sharpened up my pick - thanks, MM!) I do have an issue though, with the CD - the music starts right as you press play. There's absolutely no count, or wind-up, or whatever you call it, as my other book/CD packages have. I want to play along (especially on the gorgeous duets), but have to start 3-4 notes in, and that makes me feel kinda frantic. When you want to play a particular piece (rather than play the pieces in sequence), you have to hit the play button on either your CD player or a remote control, and there's no way to get your hands on the fretboard at the moment the tune starts. I thought I might be able to back a bit into the previous tune, so I can start at the beginning of the piece I want, but the not-too sophisticated CD player I work with in my practice area doesn't allow this. For the most part, I've just used the CD to hear what something should sound like (or for travel music in the car), but so far, can't use it for play-along, as I was hoping. 

Does anyone have any ideas? 

I realize this is a little "waawaa" (what did students do before teaching guides came with CDs?), but this is the first time I've run into this. . . 

P.S. I had the book re-bound with that plastic "comb binding," and it's already starting to tear a bit. The edges on that kind of binding are sharp. I think the smooth, spiral binding is the way to go. Oh well, that's what I'll do for my NEXT copy!

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## dj coffey

Mandolin Cafe never ceases to be the source of great ideas.

After decades of playing the piano and now taking up the mandolin, I've frequently cursed those books that would never lay flat. #Who knew it would be so inexpensive and so worth it to take those books to Office Depot and have them spiral bound!

I too purchased Ms. Mair's book. I've played a few of the exercises and am thrilled to find that, not only are they challenging, they also are tuneful which makes it a pleasure to play them!

Very nice work.

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## August Watters

Marilynn will be teaching a workshop on her book at Cape Cod Mandolin Camp in September. 

Here's the workshop description:

The Complete Mandolinist- An Insider's Guide
Marilynn Mair will give a hands-on tour through her
new 224-page method book, published by Mel Bay in
December 2007. Bring your own copy, or buy or borrow
one at the workshop. Technique for the right & left
hand-- including tremolo, shifting, duo-style;
coordination exercises to develop speed and dexterity;
and advice on developing musicianship will all be
included, as they fit the interests of students. It's
your opportunity to ask the author questions directly.

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