# Instruments and Equipment > Videos, Pictures & Sound Files >  Sam Bush Fern '34 LE

## Mario D'Orrico

Hi this is my new Gibson Sam Bush Fern '34 Limited Edition arrived last thursday. It is a great mandolin with incredible chop! It's a "Hoss"!!! 

I like to know other owners of this fantastic mandolin. Please if there is anyone that has this mandolin feel free to use this thread to discuss about this.

It's Pilot #11.

----------

DataNick, 

KevinM

----------


## Larry S Sherman

Congrats...nice looking mandolin. I love the Sam Bush models.

Video: 



Larry

----------


## AlanN

Look like a dandy mandolin. How is the neck? Is it beefy?

----------


## Mario D'Orrico

> Look like a dandy mandolin. How is the neck? Is it beefy?


The neck is wider than a standard F5-L Fern, the fingerboard is radiused with the large fret wire as Sam likes.

----------


## mtucker

That's one Badd looking little axe!!  :Mandosmiley:  Love the blocks, flamey back and wide grain spruce top. Bet it sounds good...!

----------


## Mike Bunting

Who is Badd? Is he a builder?

----------


## Ancient

Looking at the picture of the top it looks like the F holes are off. One is closer to the edge than the other one. It looks like the right one is closer to the edge than the left one.

----------


## sunburst

Yes, I believe so. The strings also look to be off center in the bridge to help center the bridge between the F-holes. These things happen...

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

Mario,
it´s nice to see a Sam Bush video. How about you post a video (or MP3) of yourself playing your mando? I´d appreciate it.

----------


## Scotti Adams

Isnt this basically a ramped up SB Model? That F hole issue would drive me nuts. Its definently there.

----------


## AlanN

So it is, did not notice that F hole issue. QC slipped.

----------


## sachmo63

How can QC slip on a $10,000 instrument.........................?

Are you kidding me???? That doesn't say much for Gibson......

----------


## jim simpson

The photo in the middle at the top is taken from an angle not dead on. I believe the angle and the reflection are what's making the f-holes look off. Measurements would settles this.

----------


## Mario D'Orrico

> The photo in the middle at the top is taken from an angle not dead on. I believe the angle and the reflection are what's making the f-holes look off. Measurements would settles this.



It can be strange, but I see all pictures on the web about this mandolin and all show this particular f-holes. I think this is a special feature, because if is a little mistake of building, it's impossible that all instruments have the same mistake.
Look at this video and please stop at 1:06 and see the mandolin... there is this feature on the mandolin that FQM has reviewed in this video also. 
There is in the pictures on the gibson original web site.



I will ask to Dave Harvey why there is this feature.

----------


## Tom Sanderson

"The photo in the middle at the top is taken from an angle not dead on. I believe the angle and the reflection are what's making the f-holes look off. Measurements would settles this. "



I agree

----------


## sunburst

> ...if is a little mistake of building, it's impossible that all instruments have the same mistake...



Gibson is a production shop. Production processes can and and do repeat "mistakes" regularly. Off-center F-holes and center seams are common in mandolins in general, particularly F5 mandolins, from many makers. It often shows up because the bridge ends up sitting closer to one F-hole than the other, but someone setting up the mandolin can cut the string notches in the bridge off-center to make the bridge sit closer to the center between the f-holes and minimize the visual effect, and it looks like that was done here.

The strings are centered in the fingerboard and apparently the mandolin plays and sounds fine. Those are the important things, the position of the f-holes and/or center seam are purely cosmetic. it's no big deal.

The photo at the lower right, not the center one in first post, is the one that shows the effect. Here's a crop of that picture where I've marked (with yellow) the distance from each f-hole to the binding and the center of the bridge top.

----------


## Ancient

For what that mandolin costs,it should be better than that.

----------


## barry

Had that instrument been delivered to me, I would return it.  Whether or not the misalignment of the F-holes makes a sonic difference, it would bother me every time I picked it up.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

You should return it. IIRC, there was another guy on here who bought and returned two of these due to workmanship issues before he finally got a keeper. Unacceptable for a $12,000 mandolin.

----------


## Kevin Briggs

Marion

Congratulations on your new axe. I'll bet that thing is loud and with great tone.

Are you able to post any sound clips? A video would be awesome too.

----------


## woodwizard

Yes! Congrats on your new axe. A beautiful instrument for sure! I'm sure you will really enjoy that wonderful Gibson tone and get years of enjoyment. Wish I had one.

----------


## Mario D'Orrico

Hi, is there anybody owner of this model? I'd like know....

----------


## f5loar

Is it the photo or are those top two tuner shafts really long?  I thought Gibson was getting tuners with shorter shafts to look better.  Those long shafts won't fit in some modern cases.

----------


## Big Joe

I have only seen one of these in person and the F holes seemed correct on that one.  However, he did say he returned two of them because of that issue.  The tuners are probably the Gibson Grovers, which do have a bit longer shaft than many of the other tuners.  They are, however, an excellent tuner and I like them as much as the Waverly's.  The 34 Bush that came into our shop was her for other issues but was a great mandolin and sounded incredible as one would hope and expect.  Again, I have not seen the suspect mandolins personally so I cannot say for sure there was a problem but I had heard it was an issue from a couple sources. I don't know if it was intentional (???) or just happended.  I doubt it hurts the tone or playability.  Thank you.

----------


## Mario D'Orrico

> Is it the photo or are those top two tuner shafts really long?  I thought Gibson was getting tuners with shorter shafts to look better.  Those long shafts won't fit in some modern cases.


Yes the tuner are Gibson Groves with mother of pearl button. These are very excellent tuner. I have used this mandolin in two live concert and I have to tune once at the start of the live concert and the tune remain the same to the entire concert. Very good.

----------


## #14

Amazingly, mine looks just like yours. It gets better each time I play it. Yes it is loud.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

Hmmm -- not to raise any tempers here but is it not odd we hear one customer has returned two SB mandolins with "issues" and then a copy of the same model ends up in another's hands apparently having the same issue(s)?  

I would hope that Gibson would bite the bullet and fix a $10,000 mandolin rather than just resend it out to another buyer --hopefully this is not what has happened here.  

If Big Joe says he saw an SB model with "normal" f-holes then obviously the SB custom model is supposed to have normal f-holes.  

So if two mandolins came back with build defects I would assume Gibson would have immediately 1) fixed them and 2) checked the remaining stock for the same flaws????????????

There is a signed statement in my 2002 Gibson F-5 Fern claiming the my mandolin was inspected and approved........

As a long time Gibson supporter I find this story creepy.  :Confused:

----------


## hank

I personally would rather have one with the f holes off center if it had the best tonal qualities.  Who knows these three with the off center f holes may smoke the symmetrical ones.  Theres no guarantee that you'll get another Hoss like Mario's if you swap it for another one.  If your happy with your mandolin don't let these guys take away your thunder.  If you don't like the way it sounds roll the dice, it's a good excuse to swap it for hopefully a better sounding one.

----------


## Mario D'Orrico

> Amazingly, mine looks just like yours. It gets better each time I play it. Yes it is loud.



Has your mandolin the f holes off center?

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> hank: I personally would rather have one with the f holes off center if it had the best tonal qualities. Who knows these three with the off center f holes may smoke the symmetrical ones. Theres no guarantee that you'll get another Hoss like Mario's if you swap it for another one. If your happy with your mandolin don't let these guys take away your thunder. If you don't like the way it sounds roll the dice, it's a good excuse to swap it for hopefully a better sounding one.


That is surely true.  I should have noted Mario alone has to make the choice on the mandolin himself.   

Just for the record I think that within reason sound and playability are the most important thing -- and frankly I did not notice the issue myself until someone else pointed it out. 

But it does not change the fact that if what we think we see happening here is what it really going on it pretty sad.  Certainly there is no reasonable excuse for a factory to sell a $10 -12,000 mandolin that has obvious structural imperfections.

I hope someone from Gibson will come on and explain this.

Mario -- I just measure the distance from the bottom of the f-holes to the edge on my 2002 F-5 Fern.  I made 10 measurements on each side with a digital calipers and took the average (the standard deviation is very small) and it is 0.79 inches on the bass side and 0.83 inches on the treble.  This is not a noticeable difference but I had never thought to measure it before.

----------


## Bob Sayers

Hi All,

I ordered a custom Gold Rush mandolin about a year ago.  It has a 1 3/16 nut width and a rounded neck.   Oddly enough, it also lacks a pickguard and has a one-piece back--appointments that I didn't specify.  Until I saw this thread, I never paid much attention to the symmetry of the F-holes.  In fact, the treble F-hole is a bit closer to the binding than the bass F-hole, just like the Bush mandolin in question.  

The bottom line, though, is it's a wonderful instrument:  It sounds and plays as I'd hoped and I got it at substantially less than the advertised price.  So I'm not going to obsess about the F-holes.  I'd like to believe that was done deliberately (something to do with the bracing on the treble side or the heavier neck, perhaps).  But it really doesn't matter.   Each Gibson mandolin, as Big Joe has said, is slightly different from every other.  From what I've learned on this website over the past few years, it's been thus since the beginning!  

Bob

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> Bob Sayers: I never paid much attention to the symmetry of the F-holes....the treble F-hole is a bit closer to the binding than the bass F-hole, just like the Bush mandolin in question....bottom line, though, is it's a wonderful instrument..... sounds and plays as I'd hoped and I got it at substantially less than the advertised price. So I'm not going to obsess about the F-holes.


Well said!  In fact if you think about it no matter how excellent a luthier that distance will probably never be *exactly* the same on any mandolin -- and if it is not readily noticeable it all boils down to personal opinion. 

Maybe it was done purposely for tonal purposes (seems unlikely?) -- but its also possible that there is on set of templates at Gibson that are off. 

You mention that you have a Goldrush -- don't they (by design) have slightly smaller f-holes than other Gibson F-5's?  

I'd sure like to have a Gibson F-5 with that 1 3/16" nut -- I wonder how expensive of an option that is?

----------


## Benski

OK, well so now you guys got me intrigued....being an engineer, I grabbed a ruler and whaddayaknow: the treble side f-hole on my 2008 Goldrush is just shy of 1/8" closer to the rim than on the bass side. Totally not noticeable without the ruler, and like Bob Sayers above, I couldnt be happier with my GR...I love the way it looks, plays and sounds...off-kilter f-holes nonwithstanding.

I guess it would be interesting to see if other Gibsons (and/or mandos from other builders as well) had this same assymmetrical quirk. 

Cheers, Benski :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Mario D'Orrico

> The bottom line, though, is it's a wonderful instrument:  It sounds and plays as I'd hoped and I got it at substantially less than the advertised price.  So I'm not going to obsess about the F-holes.  I'd like to believe that was done deliberately (something to do with the bracing on the treble side or the heavier neck, perhaps).  But it really doesn't matter.   Each Gibson mandolin, as Big Joe has said, is slightly different from every other.  From what I've learned on this website over the past few years, it's been thus since the beginning!  
> 
> Bob


I think as you....

----------


## Bob Sayers

Bernie,

Yes, the Gold Rush has slightly smaller F-holes.  By the way, I wasn't charged anything extra for ordering my mandolin with a wider neck.  (I ordered it through Mandolin Bros.)  And the one-piece back was a freebie.

Benski,

I love my Gold Rush.  It looks, plays, and sounds great.  I also have a wonderful Gibson Wayne Benson signature F-5; but the neck is a bit too slender for my left hand.  That's the reason I ordered the 1 3/8 neck on my new mando.  

Mario,

I'm with you, too.  I'm sure your Bush '34 mandolin is a killer.

By the way, I was thinking that with all these slight variations from one mandolin to the next (and with Gibson's occasional lack of transparency), collectors 80 years from now are going to be totally confounded.  Why the wider neck on this one?  Why the asymetrical F-holes on this one?  Why the one-piece back on this one?   Maybe they're "floor sweeps."   Hah!

Bob

----------


## Mario D'Orrico

> Mario,
> 
> I'm with you, too.  I'm sure your Bush '34 mandolin is a killer.
> 
> By the way, I was thinking that with all these slight variations from one mandolin to the next (and with Gibson's occasional lack of transparency), collectors 80 years from now are going to be totally confounded.  Why the wider neck on this one?  Why the asymetrical F-holes on this one?  Why the one-piece back on this one?   Maybe they're "floor sweeps."   Hah!
> 
> Bob


 :Wink:   :Mandosmiley:

----------


## #14

> Amazingly, mine looks just like yours. It gets better each time I play it. Yes it is loud.


Here it is. .865 on bass side, .670 thousandth of an inch on treble side to the outside. .195 difference. If this is what makes it louder and sweeter than my two other F5's so be it.      :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Roland Sturm

Well, I'm not an engineer, so my measurements are suspect. On my 2003 Sam Bush, the difference seems to be about 1/16 of an inch (narrower on the treble side than the bass side), about 0.78 versus 0.72. I never noticed anything looking asymmetric with the holes and still don't see one, but my ruler seems to think there is one, although it would be about 1/3 of what #14 measured.

----------


## #14

Has anyone purchased # 25 yet?

----------


## Big Joe

Since Gibson mandolins are hand made, and the F holes are cut by hand, and not with a laser or CNC it makes it nearly impossible for each to be completely identical on all instruments.  Part of the mystique of the Loar is that each one is a little bit different from others, and there are even differences from each batch and year.  Pretty amazing, and yet they all sound incredible.  

I have not measured or paid any attention to the differences in F hole alignment on any particular mandolin, but the problem as I understood it on the 34 Bush was that they were not the same on the top and bottom.  What I assumed was meant was that one was farther back than the other, though I cannot say that is what the complaint was for sure.  In any case, if it sound good and plays good, that is far more important.  One of the best sounding mandolins I've ever heard is not the best in fit and finish.  It was the first one built by a very good luthier and he certainly learned a tremendous amount in the process.  The owner absolutely loves it and plays it to death.

Again, it truly is all about the sound.  If I had one that was visibly perfect, but sounded like a kitchen table, I would not be very happy.  On the other hand, if I had one that looked a bit weird and sounded like the best thing I've ever heard, well, I can live with a little weird in my life.  After all, look at who all my friends are... most are on the cafe  :Smile:  .

----------


## Bernie Daniel

Well this thread really wandered away for the purpose of admiring Mario's new Gibson '34 Sam Bush LE mandolin.  But it was interesting for sure.

From now on I will always look at how the two f-holes line up.  But I don't know why I'll do it!  :Laughing: 

But I thought Big Joe's last comment really brings home the point that Gibson mandolins are as "hand-made" as any out there -- it's just a bigger shop that's all.

Enjoy you wonderful new Gibson mandolin Mario!   :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Mario D'Orrico

> Well this thread really wandered away for the purpose of admiring Mario's new Gibson '34 Sam Bush LE mandolin.  But it was interesting for sure.
> 
> From now on I will always look at how the two f-holes line up.  But I don't know why I'll do it! 
> 
> But I thought Big Joe's last comment really brings home the point that Gibson mandolins are as "hand-made" as any out there -- it's just a bigger shop that's all.
> 
> Enjoy you wonderful new Gibson mandolin Mario!


Thanks Bernie....  :Wink:

----------


## jimbob

I don't think I would have noticed the F-holes unless someone pointed it out to me. I guess my eyes aren't that good....

Anyhow, these folks are correct, Mario....your mandolin is seriously flawed and I would be glad to take it off your hands !

I think it looks great, and from the video... I bet it sound great, too. :Grin:

----------


## Benski

Hey Mario - at the end of the day, when you close your eyes and sit and play it in your living room, does the mando make you smile? If the answer is "yes", as I'm sure it is, then that's pretty much all that matters. 

Looks like you got yourself a beautiful mandolin that any one of us would be happy to own. Enjoy it and congratulations!  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Tom C

Quote: "But I thought Big Joe's last comment really brings home the point that Gibson mandolins are  as "hand-made" as any out there -- it's just a bigger shop that's all."

You mean they eye-ball the f-holes? No template? Maybe template was flipped and wrong side used.

----------


## Big Joe

We all use templates for different things.  I cannot say how those mandolins were done (Bush 34's) but I seriously doubt they were eyeballed.  Who knows, maybe they just had a template that was messed up or not fit correctly or maybe they did it intentionally.  I have not discussed it with them but whatever the case, I have not seen the problem personally, only heard about it.  If I get time I will try to measure some of the other brand mandolins for F hole placement.  It may be interesting to see how other do it as well.

----------


## Tom C

I'm with the group where it it plays good and sounds good, I'm happy.

----------


## #14

> Has your mandolin the f holes off center?


Yes it does..
This must give it the deep sound it has.
Wonder where the other 23 of them are?
Congratulations to you.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> Tom C: You mean they eye-ball the f-holes? No template? Maybe template was flipped and wrong side used.


Why do you say "eye-ball" it?   I do not think that was implied.  There is no connection between "hand-made" and "templates used" or "templates not used" in my mind.   

But anyway flipping the template would just exchange which f-hole was farther from the edge    :Smile:     (actually you cannot flip the template because it does not have a line of symmetry.)

But I agree with you that , within reason, sound is the thing.  However we have no evidence either that this f-hole placement issue is related or not related to the sound of the mandolin do we?  We are just speculating on that.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> #14: 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Mario D'Orrico View Post
> Has your mandolin the f holes off center?
> Yes it does..
> This must give it the deep sound it has.
> Wonder where the other 23 of them are?


Interesting.

----------


## HoGo

I don't want to hijack this thread any further, just clarify some things.
1) You cannot measure distance of f holes from edge which is assymetrical, rather do it from centerline.
2) Gibson tops are CNC cut with f holes. See Gibson factory tour on frets.com
3) Exact position of f-holes doesn't have all that much impact on sound.

----------


## Hans

3) Exact position of f-holes doesn't have all that much impact on sound.[/QUOTE]

You can say that again!  :Laughing:

----------


## HoGo

Well, I meant exact like within few 16ths of an inch from perfectly symmetrical. I wanted to edit but was too late  :Smile:

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> HOGO:  Exact position of f-holes doesn't have all that much impact on sound...
> 
> Hans: You can say that again!


OK I'll bite this is "inside baseball" obviously -- what is the joke here?

I can see the mando in the picture has f-holes higher up on the top.  So how did it sound?

----------


## G. Fisher

> OK I'll bite this is "inside baseball" obviously -- what is the joke here?
> 
> I can see the mando in the picture has f-holes higher up on the top.  So how did it sound?


I got to play that mandolin and it sounds great.  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## hank

The point here is the OP has a really sweet sounding and looking new mandolin, Congratulations.  The exact symmetry of the F holes ain't no part of nothin here in this thread.  If you are lucky enough to get matched up with a mandolin that has the right stuff for you it still may not be the right stuff for someone else.  I think some of us are nit picky to the point of being obnoxious to those who are not.  Some of us are so obsessed with certain tonal requirements for a particular style of music that we dismiss instruments that are strong in other tonal qualities appropriate for other styles of music.  Any time I have gotten deeply involved with any activity I have learned to see or hear small imperfections that to the untrained eye or ear are unnoticeable.  So it is with our beloved instruments we hear and see things that are unnoticed and unimportant to the majority of our audiences.  Again Congratulations on your beautiful new Sammy.

----------

John Gardinsky

----------


## Mark Seale

It is a beautiful instrument and I guess I never paid it any mind whether the f holes were placed the same treble and bass side.  In thinking about it, I realized that I never considered the instrument to be one based on symmetry to begin with so if they were placed slightly differently it was for chasing sound purposes.

----------


## Andrew B. Carlson

Since this one was inspired by a picture in the 1934 catalog, does anyone have a copy of the said picture? I wanna see what sparked this new Hoss.

----------


## Mario D'Orrico

> Since this one was inspired by a picture in the 1934 catalog, does anyone have a copy of the said picture? I wanna see what sparked this new Hoss.


You can find the original catalog on this link:

http://www.acousticmusic.org/Instrum...87.html#Gibson

----------


## Andrew B. Carlson

> You can find the original catalog on this link:
> 
> http://www.acousticmusic.org/Instrum...87.html#Gibson


Thanks for the link. Doesn't it just hurt when you look at those prices? I wonder why Sam didn't want the 29 fret extension too. What does he have against semi-useless frets? Pick-click or not, it looks cool. 

I'm sure jealous of your new mando though. It's gorgeous.

----------


## Mario D'Orrico

> Thanks for the link. Doesn't it just hurt when you look at those prices? I wonder why Sam didn't want the 29 fret extension too. What does he have against semi-useless frets? Pick-click or not, it looks cool. 
> 
> I'm sure jealous of your new mando though. It's gorgeous.



Sam in a interview said: "About '74, somewhere in there, I had Bob Givens take out the frets on the fingerboard extension because my pick hit it and clicks so badly. So I had it that way for a while but the pick still would click on the extension. Then one day I saw Roland White, who had basically just sawed it off of his mandolin at that fret. I was always afraid that if you did that, that it would change your playing. So I asked Roland if it changed the sound and he goes, "Yeah, that click's gone!" So about 2 months later we were in New York and I had John Monteleone saw it off. So John did the work on it. I think they look better with the long extension, artistically, but it just doesn't agree with my playing the way my hand hits it."

I have choosen this model fot the same reason. I have a Kentucky KM-1000 with the fingerboard extension and for my playing I wanted to remove the frets and "scoop" the fingerboard thinner in that area.

----------


## Hans

> OK I'll bite this is "inside baseball" obviously -- what is the joke here?


No joke Bernie...I have put ff holes all over on instruments. Doesn't make that much difference and was just trying to point out that 1/16" isn't going to make any difference.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> Hans: I have put ff holes all over on instruments. Doesn't make that much difference and was just trying to point out that 1/16" isn't going to make any difference.


OK very cool - great information and it kind of drives home how "over the top" some of these discussions can get (Hank made reference above and I agree).  I find it amusing that some claim they can hear difference in the tiniest changes to a mandolin  -- no need to go into examples!   :Smile:

----------


## Hendrik Ahrend

Interesting thread here. I proudly own a 2005 DMM and a brand new varnished Fern (Dec. 2009), both of which, I believe, sound just great. And they both have the same f-hole issue as Mario's: The respective bass f-hole is definitely further away from the edge than the treble f-hole. However, the bridge on the Fern is right in the middle, with absolutely normal string spacing. (The bridge on the DMM is placed a bit towards the bass f-hole, though.)
The pictures on the mandolin archive show that a good deal of the original Loars have some misalignment of the f-holes. Beyond that, all those old Loars have a certain assymetry. (Check out Charlie Derrington's interview on Mandozine.) For instance, the treble f-hole is "higher", and the neck is tilted towards the body scroll, which, I believe, looks good; just from this aspect, most (older) copies look way different than the Loars. Placing the f-holes a touch towards the treble side helps the neck to lean towards the body scroll and the bridge still being in the middle, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe that's what they intend these days at Gibson, just my idea. I have yet to find a new Gibson with the f-holes towards the bass side, which is what some Loars actually show, very interesting.
There are, indeed, some irregularities in new Gibsons. I like to look at them as that additional authentic Loar touch. (However, no one has ever come up with a real close reproduction of the Loar period bridge, yet.)
Anyhow, i. m. h. o., the new Gibsons nail it when it comes to a great sound and appearance. And it sure took Gibson a whole lot of r & d work to get closer to the Loar principles. Better expensive than not available. Well, there are people in the world who work for $ 2.50 a day...

----------


## HoGo

> Interesting thread here. I proudly own a 2005 DMM and a brand new varnished Fern (Dec. 2009), both of which, I believe, sound just great. And they both have the same f-hole issue as Mario's: The respective bass f-hole is definitely further away from the edge than the treble f-hole. However, the bridge on the Fern is right in the middle, with absolutely normal string spacing. (The bridge on the DMM is placed a bit towards the bass f-hole, though.)
> The pictures on the mandolin archive show that a good deal of the original Loars have some misalignment of the f-holes. Beyond that, all those old Loars have a certain assymetry. (Check out Charlie Derrington's interview on Mandozine.) For instance, the treble f-hole is "higher", and the neck is tilted towards the body scroll, which, I believe, looks good; just from this aspect, most (older) copies look way different than the Loars. Placing the f-holes a touch towards the treble side helps the neck to lean towards the body scroll and the bridge still being in the middle, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe that's what they intend these days at Gibson, just my idea. I have yet to find a new Gibson with the f-holes towards the bass side, which is what some Loars actually show, very interesting.
> There are, indeed, some irregularities in new Gibsons. I like to look at them as that additional authentic Loar touch. (However, no one has ever come up with a real close reproduction of the Loar period bridge, yet.)


Yes, Loars have all kinds of asymmetries, but many were quite random (or at least not intentional by any means). From my measurements it sems like Loar two f holes were cut (routed?) using template with two f holes. Relative posiiton of f-holes is same but sometimes the template slipped towards bass side, treble side or rotated making one hole appear higher. Always within 1/16". The neck set to bisect center between f holes would make bridge look normal and centered as was typically done on Loars.
So the "problem" of mandolin in OP may as well be in neck set. The modern Gibson f body shape is different from Loar and the bass f-hole larger circle seems to be typically further from binding than on treble side.

----------


## #14

Do you still have your mandolin and do you still like it?
I have one also.
Where did all the rest of the 25 end up?
Your mandolin friend,
David.

----------


## glabbe

Could you tell me what the designation "pilot" mean. I understand there were 25 SB limited editions fern models produced. How does the pilot #11 fit into those production numbers?

----------


## Benski

> Could you tell me what the designation "pilot" mean. I understand there were 25 SB limited editions fern models produced. How does the pilot #11 fit into those production numbers?


I would be curious about this too and would hope that Big Joe, Danny Roberts of Dave Harvey might weigh in on this topic. I have Sam Bush Fern Pilot #2 which is simply a fantastic instrument. While I don't recall ever seeing one of the 25 "production" instruments for sale here on the Cafe or EBay or elsewhere, the OP has (or had in 2009) Pilot #11 and I see Pilot #8 is presently listed for sale on Reverb. So the question of just how many Pilots are out there as well as how do they differ from the 25 production models, if it all, are of interest to me. Also: did other "signature" models (the Bibey, the Steffey, etc.) also have Pilot's? Thanks, cheers and Merry Christmas, all.

----------


## William Smith

Gibson is famous for the inconsistences, my late 30's F-7 conversion has the treble F-hole very far in the body compared to the bass side, and is very off! But it sounds so great it has never bothered me and with a guard who cares? Not me as long as it has the tone, power and overall killer voice? Some people have to have everything perfect though but not this guy so play and enjoy if it has the sound! Some people can't even deal with playwear or scratch here and there but I have news unless you look at them in a glass case they will get wear!  Look at some old Loars and Ferns "inconsistences in most of them!-the imperfection of the old F-5's were discussed many moons ago!"

----------


## Benski

Gonna try once again to bring this thread back to the OP's original intent: to discuss the Limited Edition Bush Fern "Inspired by '34" mandolin. 

I'm curious, like the OP, to know more about them: who has them, how many pilots were made, what the pilot program entailed, were modifications made to the pilots prior to going into full production, etc. 

Thanks and cheers.

----------

cayuga red

----------


## Bogle

Perhaps "pilot" = "prototype"?

----------


## Benski

> Perhaps "pilot" = "prototype"?


Yea...I'm taking "pilot" to be synonymous with "prototype" too. 

I find it interesting that each of the SB'34LE pilots that I've encountered, including mine, all sport Sam's gold magic markered signature on the back of the headstock, just like the full production models...so I have to assume they were meant either to be given away or sold (perhaps to employees?). 

In addition to the questions I listed in my earlier posts above (#'s 68 and 70), were pilots released for the DMM's or RSDMM's or other limited production models? 

I know that the Goldrushes had a couple different versions: some with black binding, some with tortoise shell. Some standard Bushes had the abbreviated "cut off" fingerboard while others had the "birds beak" at the end. Were some of either of these "prototypes/pilots", or did Gibson issue these variations for some other reasons like customer requests, because the different materials were lying around, market testing or "just for fun"? 

Anybody from Gibson, or otherwise knowledgeable, feel like jumping in here?

And then there is the overarching question: anybody out there have one of the SB'34LE production models or pilots and, if so, whatcha think of them?

Cheers.

----------


## glabbe

I have been looking into this for a little bit. I must state that I am NO GIBSON EXPERT. I think that the 25 Sam Bush mandolins that were made were considered a pilot program. Right now on Reverb there is a Les Paul reissue that is called part of a pilot run and was 11 of 20 guitar made for a NAMM show. The guitars serial number is "PR 11",

So far the only serial numbers I have sen for any of the 34 Sam Bush Ferns have been "pilot #2", "pilot #8", and "pilot #11". There have been two other 34 Sam Bush Ferns that have been mentioned in threads #14, and #22. Could the owner of those two mandolins tell us their serial numbers? Are they "pilot #14", and "pilot #22"?. 

I saw a video on youtube of Dennis Vance from the Mandolin Shop playing a 34 Sam Bush Fern that is noted number 22. If anyone knows Dennis does he know what the serial number of that mandolin.

Additionally I spoke with the salesman who originally sold the 34 Sam Bush Fern with the serial number "pilot #8". He didn't understand the "pilot" part, but he said that when he contacted Gibson he told them he only wanted one if the serial number was single digit. He assumed that this mandolin was the 8th production mandolin built. 

Theories must be tested by the light.

----------


## glabbe

Benski - If I am right you have the first production 34 SB Fern. If "pilot #2" was the second 34 SB Fern made, Sam Bush got number 1 or "pilot #1". Which would mean that you have this first production model sold to the public.

----------


## #14

I still own Pilot #14 Acoustic Engineer. Sam Bush
It has great C, D, and G range. 
I heard a rumor they never finished the “run of 25”. They ran out of LIKE materials.

I have several Gibson F5’s from different years. Each and everyone has its own voice. Neck shape and size etc.
I enjoy each. 
Best regards

----------


## glabbe

#14, what is the date on the label, in your mandolin, that is signed by Sam Bush?

----------


## glabbe

#14, what is the date written on the label signed by Sam Bush in your mandolin. The 34 Sam Bush Fern mandolin for sale on Reverb is Pilot #8 and was signed April 22, 2009. Mario you have pilot #11 and Benski has pilot #2, What date were your mandolins signed. There is a very cool video on YouTube titled "the golden signature". It is a video of Dave Harvey dropping off 8 mandolin to Sam Bush for him to sign. It is dated May 1, 2009. Anyone have a signature date of May 1st. One of those mandolins could be yours. He is playing a mandolin and he and Dave Harvey mention that the mandolin is going to "Jim Elder". Has anyone heard of him?

----------


## Benski

> Benski - If I am right you have the first production 34 SB Fern. If "pilot #2" was the second 34 SB Fern made, Sam Bush got number 1 or "pilot #1". Which would mean that you have this first production model sold to the public.


Wow...now wouldn't that be cool!

Alright, now we're getting somewhere! 

So, what we've got so far: 

Serial Number	Date
Pilot 2	April 14, 2009
Pilot 8	April 22, 2009
Pilot 11	
Pilot 14	
Pilot (?) 22

Anybody else out there?

----------


## #14

My date is: April 20 2009

----------


## Benski

OK...updated....hopefully we will get more. 

And still hoping that someone can provide some definitive insight into this pilot thing....

----------


## glabbe

Alright Mario we need your input on the date you pilot #11 was signed. I believe that it is inside the mandolin on the label that Sam Bush signed. Mario I know it takes a little while for information on the interweb to get all the way over to Italy, but we need to hear from you.

Also is Jim Elder out there? Dave Harvey and Sam Bush, in the YouTube video "The Golden Signature", discusses the mandolin that Sam is playing and signing, and they mention that the mandolin was going to Jim Elder. So, Jim, What number did you get, what was the serial number, and what date was it signed. I am guessing May, 1st 2009.

I am going to try to call the Mandolin Store. I don't know if they are open on Sunday. I am sure they have a record of the serial number for the 31 SB Fern #22. I just don't know if they would be willing to spend the time to help with this question.

----------


## Karl Hoyt

I'm refretting and fitting a cumberland bridge to  Pilot #16, signed June 11, 09. I'm not the owner, just the instrument technician. Not sure if the owner wants to bandy his name about.....but I can ask.

----------


## Benski

Thanks, Karl. Much obliged. Please mention this thread to the current owner...would be fun to get his/her input. As far as the "pilot" designation goes, its starting to look like all 25 of the Bush Ferns had this as part of their serial numbers. Further, it appears that "pilot" was used for other Gibson special runs, including guitars. Somebody correct me if this info is incorrect. Cheers.

----------

Karl Hoyt

----------

