# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  Barney Kessel Playing A Gibson 12 String Mandolin?

## guitarfool2002

Hello! I'm hoping someone can help me in this search for info on a Gibson mandolin. This photo was in the booklet from the Beach Boys "Pet Sounds Sessions" box set. Barney Kessel is holding what looks like a Gibson mandolin with 12 strings, and the instrument appears to be acoustic since a microphone is placed near the F hole just at the bottom of the shot and I see no signs of a pickup. I have found little information on this instrument other than this photo, and I've been looking for other photos and answers for years.



Was this a production model Gibson that would have been in their catalog, or was this a custom order for Barney, or even another session musician? Was this instrument electric, or acoustic? What year or era does it appear to be by the features shown in the photo? The only guess I can offer is that it may be closer to a Vox Mandoguitar, where it is tuned like a guitar but strung in pairs like a mandolin minus the octave strings of a normal 12-string.

Thank you in advance for any help or info, as this info could help settle a lot of questions and discussions. Specifically, one of them is whether this very instrument could have been used by Barney to play the intro to "Wouldn't It Be Nice" on Pet Sounds.

Thank you!

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## Bruce Clausen

Nifty.  Scale looks longer than mandolin, more like a kind of alto guitar range (A to a'?).  Maybe he wanted a 12-string guitar pitched higher, and Gibson found it easier to use a mandolin or mandola body than to design one from scratch.

This would also give him mandolin sound for playing melodic parts without the hassles of learning the tuning.  Six-string banjos exist for the same reason.

We may have heard this on records, jingles and sound tracks passing for guitar, mandolin, bouzouki, and heaven knows what else.

Does the truss-rod cover say "custom"?

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## Spruce

> and I've been looking for other photos and answers for years.


Me too!!




> ....this very instrument could have been used by Barney to play the intro to "Wouldn't It Be Nice" on Pet Sounds.


The _very_ out-of-tune intro to "Wouldn't It Be Nice"....   :Wink:

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## delsbrother

Did Tommy Tedesco have something to do with that?

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DavidKOS

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## Paul Hostetter

> Did Tommy Tedesco have something to do with that?


Same coast, but wrong cluster. Listen to those great tracks by the Coasters - Little Egypt, Shoppin' for Clothes, Searchin', Charlie Brown, Down In Mexico, Yakety Yak, Poison Ivy, Young Blood, Along Came Jones, Three Cool Cats, and so on. He was in that crew. Session personnel included: Jerry Leiber (vocals); Allen Hanlon (acoustic guitar); Sonny Clarke (electric guitar); George Barnes (guitar, banjo, bass); Barry Kessel, Adolph Jacobs (guitar, etc.); King Curtis, Gil Bernal (tenor saxophone); Mike Stoller (piano); Wendell Marshall, Ralph Waldo Hamilton (bass); Gary Chester, Jesse Sailes, Joe Marshall, Bernard Purdie (drums); Chico Guerrero (congas). Not the Wrecking Crew. 

Kessel was one of the guys Gibson liked, and to whom they floated prototypes and custom instruments.

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Russ Donahue

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## Jason Kessler

I've never thought that the intro to "Wouldn't It Be Nice" was played on any fretted instrument.  It sounds more like a harp to me.

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## guitarfool2002

Thanks for the replies so far!

I thought the truss rod cover may say "custom" as well, it's too bad a better quality photo hasn't been found. It would make perfect sense to have a custom instrument such as that made for session work, so you could play and read standard guitar tuning with the mandolin (or banjo) sound.

I've also heard Tommy Tedesco call it his "plectrum tuning", which basically meant tuning any non-guitar stringed instrument like a guitar and reading the notes. I'm guessing a lot of the mandolin parts on film sessions, TV themes and scores, etc. which feature Tommy playing mandolin were done this way, at least according to what Tommy himself said in the past. And if a more authentic part was called for, he'd bow out and recommend an expert on that instrument for the session. But for Barney Kessel, having a 12-string mando-guitar would seem to be a pretty helpful tool in the studio.

The Wouldn't It Be Nice intro, from what can be heard on the session tapes, consisted of (most likely) two 12-string electrics, one played high and one played low. If not, the other possibility is one definite 12-string electric played low, and perhaps a Mandoguitar type of instrument covering the high part. Later in the song that's joined by an acoustic rhythm guitar and an electric doubling the bass line. The players listed were Jerry Cole, Barney Kessel, Bill Pitman on guitars, and Ray Pohlman, Carol Kaye, and Lyle Ritz on basses.

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DavidKOS

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## Paul Hostetter

> I've never thought that the intro to "Wouldn't It Be Nice" was played on any fretted instrument.  It sounds more like a harp to me.


It's so out of tune, I can't imagine it's a harp, or even BK playing anything. But there's a mandolin-ish sound later in that mix that could be him playing that thing.

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## barney 59

On that "Pet Sounds" album there is an instrumental song with a xylophone and something that sounds kind of mandolin like.

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## Spruce

> It's so out of tune.....


I _love_ that kind of stuff, mainly because you never here such a thing on modern recordings...
Hell, you could sample that intro, loop it, and have yourself something that sounded like it came out of Bamako...

Hard to get something like that successfully to tape these days, much less on a hit record....

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Nevin

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## Paul Hostetter

True that.  :Smile:

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## Chip Booth

> The Wouldn't It Be Nice intro, from what can be heard on the session tapes, consisted of (most likely) two 12-string electrics, one played high and one played low. If not, the other possibility is one definite 12-string electric played low, and perhaps a Mandoguitar type of instrument covering the high part. Later in the song that's joined by an acoustic rhythm guitar and an electric doubling the bass line. The players listed were Jerry Cole, Barney Kessel, Bill Pitman on guitars, and Ray Pohlman, Carol Kaye, and Lyle Ritz on basses.


I just listened to this intro out of curiosity as I hadn't heard it in a long time.  It sounds like a completely unrelated, experimental use of a recording to me, it's not in the same key, or time, or anything as the rest of the recording, and I see no reason to assume the Beach Boys and these particular sessions players were even the ones who recorded it.  For all I can tell it could be a processed music box and the out of tuneness is tape warble.

Spruce I still hear experimental little intros and things all over the place these days, but I listen to a lot of off the path prog rock and things like that.  Some recent pop music does things like this such as the opening sounds of Sheryl Crow's self titled album.

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## polarbear

The classic beautiful beginning to such a wonderful song, i would love to have one of these !!  :Smile:

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## Paul Hostetter

You just revived a thread that's been slumbering for two years. And it's still out of tune after all these years.

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Spruce

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## Perry Babasin

Barney Kessel was good friends with my Dad. Pop probably had some insight to these questions. I wish he were still here...

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cayuga red

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## Perry Babasin



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cayuga red, 

Charlie Bernstein, 

GreenMTBoy, 

Russ Donahue

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## journeybear

Sorry for the bump. Collateral damage from another thread. 

It's not out of tune - it's a key change, from A to F.

_"Wouldn't It Be Nice" begins with an eight-beat introduction in the key of A major.[8] Following a single drum hit, the song shifts to the remote flat submediant key of F._

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## DavidKOS

> Did Tommy Tedesco have something to do with that?





> I've also heard Tommy Tedesco call it his "plectrum tuning", which basically meant tuning any non-guitar stringed instrument like a guitar and reading the notes. I'm guessing a lot of the mandolin parts on film sessions, TV themes and scores, etc. which feature Tommy playing mandolin were done this way, at least according to what Tommy himself said in the past.


I had a chance to talk to Tedesco at a workshop in the 80's, and indeed he tuned EVERYTHING like a guitar or at least the top 4 strings of a guitar - his mandolin was tuned DGBE.

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## Jeff Mando

Speaking of being out of tune--I've always felt the Beach Boys harmony singing was slightly out of tune, but they never seem to get called out on it?  It always catches my ear to the point where I almost feel it may have been intentional and by design?  Kind of a "hook" if you will.  Or, maybe it was just the nasal-y, whiney voice of youthful exuberance.....anyone else hear that?

PS:  I know Brian Wilson was/is a genius, and all.....

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## abaird85

> Hello! I'm hoping someone can help me in this search for info on a Gibson mandolin. This photo was in the booklet from the Beach Boys "Pet Sounds Sessions" box set. Barney Kessel is holding what looks like a Gibson mandolin with 12 strings, and the instrument appears to be acoustic since a microphone is placed near the F hole just at the bottom of the shot and I see no signs of a pickup. I have found little information on this instrument other than this photo, and I've been looking for other photos and answers for years.
> 
> 
> 
> Was this a production model Gibson that would have been in their catalog, or was this a custom order for Barney, or even another session musician? Was this instrument electric, or acoustic? What year or era does it appear to be by the features shown in the photo? The only guess I can offer is that it may be closer to a Vox Mandoguitar, where it is tuned like a guitar but strung in pairs like a mandolin minus the octave strings of a normal 12-string.
> 
> Thank you in advance for any help or info, as this info could help settle a lot of questions and discussions. Specifically, one of them is whether this very instrument could have been used by Barney to play the intro to "Wouldn't It Be Nice" on Pet Sounds.
> 
> Thank you!


I just saw one of these at an older gentlemans house. The inside states it's an A-40-12, tuned like a guitar and with that same huge headstock. It is from Gibson's custom shop and was made in Kalamazoo. The sticker does call it a Mandolin.

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allenhopkins, 

DavidKOS, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Timbofood

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## MikeZito

Just imagine how REALLY out of tune the intro to 'Wouldn't It Be Nice' would sound if there weren't so much echo on it!  Eeech!

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## Timbofood

abaird85, HOW COOL for you to have actually see one of these, I'm curious as to how my may have been built. Since it was from the "Custom shop" I would imagine there could not be more than a couple at most. It must have been rather like the time the guy walked into the shop I worked at with "THE Lyre mandolin"! There aren't many of those either. How cool to see some of these examples of exciting lutherie!

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## DavidKOS

[QUOTE=delsbrother;953893]




> I just saw one of these at an older gentlemans house. The inside states it's an A-40-12, *tuned like a guitar* and with that same huge headstock. It is from Gibson's custom shop and was made in Kalamazoo. The sticker does call it a Mandolin.


There you have it - guitar tuning, which makes it easy for guitar players to read the charts.

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## Spruce

> I just saw one of these at an older gentlemans house. The inside states it's an A-40-12, tuned like a guitar and with that same huge headstock. It is from Gibson's custom shop and was made in Kalamazoo. The sticker does call it a Mandolin.


I would do a bit of sleuthing and try to see if it's the one that Barney is holding in the Pet Sounds pic...
I just did a search for "Gibson A-40-12", and nothing came up...
There can't be too many of these out there...

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## Spruce

> Thank you in advance for any help or info, as this info could help settle a lot of questions and discussions. Specifically, one of them is whether this very instrument could have been used by Barney to play the intro to "Wouldn't It Be Nice" on Pet Sounds.


This, from Brian Wilson's autobiography:

_"...('Wouldn't It Be Nice') was a totally new bag of sounds for us--or anybody else, for that matter.  On the intro I had Barney Kessel playing this really great guitar he had, a one-of-a-kind twelve-string mando-guitar built by Gibson.  It sounded like nothing else.  He played right into the board."_

Nice!

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FLATROCK HILL, 

MikeZito, 

Perry Babasin, 

Timbofood

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## mandobassman

Hard to tell from the photo, but I was thinking it might be a 4-course instrument with 3 strings per course.

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## Paul Hostetter

No. Barney was a guitar player. Guitars have 6 strings. When you're a "can-do" studio musician as he was, and the call asks for a mandolin, an instrument like this will do the job. Six courses (fairly obvious in the photo) tuned to the same intervals as a guitar, probably simply up an octave, mean there's minimal relearning involved. 

And when you're Barney Kessell, and you need something a little different, Gibson is happy to oblige. 

My guess is that there may have been three of these made, and they're out there somewhere. Maybe Barney had the only one. I would love to know for sure.

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Perry Babasin, 

Timbofood

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## Spruce

I just listened to the Pet Sounds box set on a road trip, and that Gibson octave 12-string is _everywhere_, and not just "WIBN"...
It's pretty distinctive, especially after getting very familiar with my Hammertone--a similar instrument...
It's holding down the fort on "Sloop John B"...

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Bruce Clausen, 

Paul Hostetter

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## MikeEdgerton

Might as well add Barney. If you want to see the instrument it's there at 4:45 through 4:55.

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## Spruce

> Might as well add Barney.


Glad to see you're having as much problems as the rest of us with imbedding YouTube videos...    :Wink:

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## MikeEdgerton

It's embedded for me.

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## Spruce

> It's embedded for me.


...Hmmm, interesting.
Still not visible here...
Ad blocker, perhaps??

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## Paul Hostetter

I can see 'em fine. Interesting document!



Do tell!

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## MikeEdgerton

There's a picture of the instrument soon after that pops up. It's only on the screen a short time.

Brian Wilson's genius pretty much comes out in these sessions but you also realize it wasn't a real walk in the park for the session players.

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## Spruce

> Brian Wilson's genius pretty much comes out in these sessions but you also realize it wasn't a real walk in the park for the session players.


I think it was a hellova lot more interesting that a lot of the drivel that was going on during that period for them...
And, can you imagine playing the session, and then a few months later hearing the final result??
That had to feel pretty good...

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## MikeEdgerton

It's actually pretty incredible stuff. You listen to him conveying his desire for the piece ..."Hal, I want a Boom then on the next measure come in with bopta boom on the third beat" or something like that. When you figure most of the session players didn't hear it all together, yeah, that would be neat. I thought it was interesting that he had at least three different bass players on those tracks.

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## Paul Hostetter

Mike, I trust you've seen the Wrecking Crew documentary, yes? The final DVD release from 2015 has a ton of extra features that are really worth watching, just to see those people and how they all fit in together, with and without Brian Wilson. 

One more thing about dealing with Brian Wilson: they were all getting very decent union wages. I think it took the $ting out of all the time it took to finally get a take.

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## MikeEdgerton

I've seen that documentary yes. I'm sure they did well on that. It still looks like it was grueling.

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## Timbofood

Yes, I agree, the mind numbing hours of going through things over and over. But, while being paid "scale" was enough to keep the wolf from the door most of those amazing musicians were never recognized for the talent they were. 
I love the fact that Tommy Tedesco played the theme from "Bonanza" but who knew that until after he had died? Not me!

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## Paul Hostetter

So you never saw his monthly column in Guitar Player magazine, Studio Log? It was always one of my favorite things about that magazine. GP used to archive them, but their website seems pretty dead now.

_Among the movie soundtracks he's played on, he counts 45 alone whose titles begin with the letter "B," from "Baby It's You" to "Bye Bye Birdie."

For television, he played lead guitar for the themes from "Bonanza," "Batman," "MASH" and "Green Acres."

He also can be heard on such pop hits as Elvis Presley's "Viva Las Vegas," Johnny Rivers' "Poor Side of Town," 5th Dimension's "Up-Up and Away," Jan and Dean's "The Little Old Lady (From Pasadena)," Frank Sinatra's "Strangers in the Night" and the Mamas & the Papas' "Monday, Monday." He's even backed Alvin & the Chipmunks.

"It was the heyday of records," he says. "We worked from 9 a.m. until 2 a.m. seven days a week. We'd start with some movie score, then go work for Phil Spector late into the night. A lot of times, we didn't even know what it was we were doing. They put a piece of music in front of you, I play, it's over, they send me the money. That's it._

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MikeEdgerton, 

Spruce, 

Timbofood

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## Jeff Mando

I think in an old Guitar Player interview, Tedesco said he played on the Ventures stuff that was too "hard" for the band!  Or, at least too hard for them to get in one or two takes, I assume.....

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## Timbofood

"I play, it's over, they send a check"! I love it.

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## abaird85

How do you post images on this? I can get you guys a pic of it.

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## abaird85



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BradKlein, 

jesserules, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Russ Donahue, 

Timbofood

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## MikeEdgerton

Damn, there it is! OK, what is the story? Where is it now?

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## abaird85

I currently have it because he is letting me borrow it for a Christmas service. I don't know all of the story. He has lived all of his life within about an hour of the old Kalamazoo factory and bought it used years ago. I'm curious about it and sent all of the pertinent info to Gibson to see if they could help me out in identifying it.

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## abaird85

He's got quite a collection of various things from over the years. He also has what appears to be a '49 ES-175, but with no cutaway. I realize this sounds like it could be a 125 or 150, but all of the appointments are those of a 175. Been digging to try and find out about that as well, but nothing. The other really unique thing is a J-200 with a three piece back. He said that he got that one from someone that used to work in the factory, so I'm guessing that guy had it made for himself. I've not seen another vintage Gibson acoustic with a 3 piece back, just Martin's.

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William Smith

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## AlanN

Terrific.

What does the tailpiece look like under the cover?

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## abaird85

I have not opened it up yet. I'm going to take it to a tech that I trust to have the strings replaced and I'll get a look at it then.

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## abaird85



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jesserules, 

William Smith

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## jerrymartin

Oh, my. It's just like my little A-50 would look after a Popeye-spinach-and-steroids cocktail. Does it have an I-beam for a truss rod?

Oh my oh my oh my...  :Disbelief: 

Jerry M.

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## jesserules

I guess that truss rod cover answers some questions ...

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## Seter

How would/should this be tuned? Like a double course alto guitar or requinto? Or some sort of 5ths tuning?

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## abaird85

> How would/should this be tuned? Like a double course alto guitar or requinto? Or some sort of 5ths tuning?


It was explained to me that it should be in standard guitar tuning, but up an octave.

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## Timbofood

That is so cool! An hour from “home”?  That’s just amazing!
I live in Kalamazoo, I’d really love to see that! I hope that you have someone who knows what’s what do any of the maintenance, if it’s just stringing, I’d be happy to help but, if it needs more “attention” there are a few people I’d trust. Glad you know someone.
The TP looks like a “normal” mandolin design to me, I doubt they would have custom built a twelve hook design for the design, too expensive.
So, you have something very interesting right there! It would be a blast to spend an afternoon with!

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## Paul Hostetter

> I currently have it because he is letting me borrow it for a Christmas service.


Who is "he?" 

If this one has been around K'zoo, it may be a mate to Barney's, as Gibson routinely made prototypes in threes back then. 

A-40-12. Now we have a model designation for it, anyway. Too much!

Looking at the tailpiece, it appears that they just crammed 12 strings onto the tabs that were made to hold eight.

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Bill McCall, 

Charlieshafer, 

Russ Donahue

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## abaird85

> Who is "he?" 
> 
> If this one has been around K'zoo, it may be a mate to Barney's, as Gibson routinely made prototypes in threes back then. 
> 
> A-45-12. Now we have a model designation for it, anyway. Too much!
> 
> Looking at the tailpiece, it appears that they just crammed 12 strings onto the tabs that were made to hold eight.


He is a friend of mine in his 80s. Played primarily guitar, but some fiddle and mandolin in country, bluegrass and gospel groups. He also has a 1917 Gibson Mandolin, but I dont remember the designation.

Not to be nit picky, but the designation is A-40-12.

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## MikeEdgerton

> ..Now we have a model designation for it, anyway....


We actually had that back in message 20 of this thread.

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## Paul Hostetter

> He is a friend of mine in his 80s. Played primarily guitar, but some fiddle and mandolin in country, bluegrass and gospel groups. He also has a 1917 Gibson Mandolin, but I dont remember the designation.
> 
> Not to be nit picky, but the designation is A-40-12.


Right you are.

So he's owned this for its life? It's not, as far as you know, Barney's own instrument? Or is it?

What's the scale length on it? Body width, etc.?

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## AlanN

> I have not opened it up yet. I'm going to take it to a tech that I trust to have the strings replaced and I'll get a look at it then.


Paul H. is likely correct, strings look like they were simply doubled up on the standard t/p hooks. Cooleo stuff...

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## abaird85

> Right you are.
> 
> So he's owned this for its life? It's not, as far as you know, Barney's own instrument? Or is it?
> 
> What's the scale length on it? Body width, etc.?


He bought it used and Im not sure exactly when. Ill have to ask him.

Fretboard is 9 3/4. Headstock is 9. Body width is 10 1/2. Body height is 13 1/2.

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## MikeEdgerton

I wonder how close this is in size to the six string Gibson M-6?

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## Timbofood

Was the owner an employee back when this was produced? 
I agree the possibility of a couple being made is pretty high, three or four makes perfect sense.
Yep, I made the stock TP statement back in #55, makes way more sense than some kind of custom piece for an instrument with, dare I say it, very limited market?

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## MikeEdgerton

Limited enough that the M-6 died. I had a friend that had the Goldtone copy of the 6 string. It was pretty near impossible to play but then again I'm not Barney Kessel.

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## tree

Dang, the headstock is longer than the back of the neck.

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## Paul Hostetter

> Fretboard is 9 3/4”. Headstock is 9”. Body width is 10 1/2”. Body height is 13 1/2”.


Scale is the distance from the nut to the bridge. In other words, the vibrating string length. That's the measurement I was curious about.

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## tree

And I was responding to the 2nd photo in post #50 at the end of page 2, thinking it was the last post in the thread . . . then I realized I hadn't seen page 3.  :Redface: 

Anyway, that photo makes the headstock look really heavy, and the neck really short.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Anyway, that photo makes the headstock look really heavy, and the neck really short.


Kind of like this one?  :Cool:

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## abaird85

Sorry about that. The scale is 14".

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## abaird85

> Terrific.
> 
> What does the tailpiece look like under the cover?

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## MikeEdgerton

I kind of suspected that it would look like that.

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## AlanN

> 


Thanks. And it's the classic "Use what you got!"

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## Timbofood

Well, did anyone really think it was going to be a custom 12 string tailpiece? They maybe made what, 3 of these? Makes no sense for them to have gone to the expense to put something like that into production, does it?

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## AlanN

Yeah, and hard to tell from pic, but looks like a metal strap pin. My ca. late 50's, early 60's A-40 has the cream colored pin, more to match the binding. And this tailpiece also looks to be split?

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## Paul Hostetter

This tailpiece is indeed about to blow. They weren't engineered for the pull of 12 strings, especially not fat ones like these. Check the rip across the bottom by the edge of the body:



The sideways tabs would have ripped sooner, but I think the fold will die sooner. There are ways to fix this tailpiece. Any new base that you might put on will have the same engineering issues, so it makes more sense to rebuild the existing one.

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## AlanN

> This tailpiece is indeed about to blow. They weren't engineered for the pull of 12 strings, especially not fat ones like these. Check the rip across the bottom by the edge of the body:
> 
> 
> 
> The sideways tabs would have ripped sooner, but I think the fold will die sooner. There are ways to fix this tailpiece. Any new base that you might put on will have the same engineering issues, so it makes more sense to rebuild the existing one.


Via welding?

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## Timbofood

“Aye, Captain, she’s gonna blow, I canna change the laws of physics!”

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## Paul Hostetter

> Via welding?


You don't weld cuprous alloys, welding is strictly for iron-based alloys. And even silver soldering (AKA brazing, the correct term for joining copper-based alloys on a molecular basis) would yield a net loss in terms of strength over the original. Which was already not strong enough. 

But it's possible to braze/silver solder a patch over the entire bend where it's tearing. This would entail some high-level silversmithing and then replating, as the brazing would wreck the plating.

What gives me pause is how the little tabs or hooks holding the string loops are obviously failing as well. There might still be room enough to put in four new hooks that are oriented the right direction. Maybe it'd be wiser to make a whole new base from scratch that would accept and hold the original cover.

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AlanN, 

Russ Donahue

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## AlanN

And this well-informed post is precisely why I _play_ the mandolin...and leave the crafting to others...

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## MikeEdgerton

It's not surprising to see that it's failing on the bass side.

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...Maybe it'd be wiser to make a whole new base from scratch that would accept and hold the original cover.


That would probably be the best answer. Do you think they used that screw on strap button as extra holding power to keep the tailpiece in place?

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## Paul Hostetter

I've seen that type used when there's no tapered hole to hold a normal endpin. The screw in the center is a regular wood screw, it just goes into the wood of the endblock. The base of the aluminum button fits the hole in the tailpiece, but it's snugged up against wood. 

I'm still trying to work out the body size. Going by Mr Baird's measurements, it's built on neither a mandolin or a mandola body, it's somewhere in between. Which I find rather odd. The 14" scale is what I would interpret as Gibson's normal (13-7/8") mandolin scale.

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## MikeEdgerton

Is it anywhere near the wide body mandolins of the 30's? You would think they would have used some existing tooling and forms.

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Timbofood

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## Russ Donahue

This has been an awesome thread, and one of the most interesting things I have come across today. Thanks all (and its good to see Paul Hostetter in the mix).

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## Timbofood

> Is it anywhere near the wide body mandolins of the 30's? You would think they would have used some existing tooling and forms.


Just what I was thinking, Mike. Did they have a “wide track” body hiding under a bench?

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## John Rosett

Here's Tommy Tedesco's "A-50-12" for auction: https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vin...ription-071515

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Bob Bass, 

Timbofood

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## John Rosett

They have Barney Kessel's too: https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vin...ription-071515

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Bob Bass, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

So now we know there were two!
Any clues as to,starting bids?
I’m not in unless it’s under ten bucks..

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## f5loar

yes, two of them up for sale at the same time.  Both made in 1963.  Odd that one has the logo in gold stencil and the other has it in pearl inlay.  Truss rod covers are different.  Other than that are identical.  So no doubt a custom order and likely not more than 3 or 4 made in the mid 60's.  Hard to put a value on these but should bring more than a regular A40 or A50 from same era.

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## brunello97

> You don't weld cuprous alloys, welding is strictly for iron-based alloys. And even silver soldering (AKA brazing, the correct term for joining copper-based alloys on a molecular basis) would yield a net loss in terms of strength over the original. Which was already not strong enough......


I know this is an old post from our amigo, Paul, but we TIG weld non ferrous metals all the time in the shop: aluminum (of course) but also bronze and copper.  

I'm pretty good at it, but it can be a tricky, particularly with metals that rapidly conduct heat.  But that's what TIG is good for in my experience.

Whether it is the appropriate solution to this problem is another question.  I do a lot of brazing operations as well, but either the TIG or the brazing is likely to severely trouble the plating as Pablo correctly notes.  

Mick

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## Jeff Mando

People are talking about the tailpiece being "about to blow" after 54 years!  Sounds like it did it job just fine and they got their money's worth.  Just buy another used tailpiece and you'll be good for another 54 years.......jeesh!

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brunello97, 

Timbofood

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## f5loar

> People are talking about the tailpiece being "about to blow" after 54 years!  Sounds like it did it job just fine and they got their money's worth.  Just buy another used tailpiece and you'll be good for another 54 years.......jeesh!


An easy part to replace on a vintage Gibson.

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Jeff Mando

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## Bernie Daniel

> People are talking about the tailpiece being "about to blow" after 54 years!  Sounds like it did it job just fine and they got their money's worth.  Just buy another used tailpiece and you'll be good for another 54 years.......jeesh!


No need to replace it just break out the silver solder and LA-CO braising flux paste and that thing will be stronger than new.

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## Timbofood

OK, has the auction happened and, if so, which one of you lucky folk won?
Id replace the TP, since youd need to remove it to solder it anyway, no brained for me.

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## BradKlein

Eight out of ten mandolin players use LA-CO® for all their High Heat Resistance Silver Brazing Flux Paste needs! ;-)

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## John Rosett

One of these is for sale at Elderly now: https://www.elderly.com/products/gib...m_source=zaius

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Bob Bass

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## Bob Bass

Hi John-

The one at Elderly is likely the one that belonged to Tommy Tedesco, which Cafe member abaird85 borrowed from the "older gentleman" in the fall of 2017 for a performance. Tommy Tedesco's had the A model neck joint at the 12 fret, and Barney Kessel's had the A model neck joint at the 15th fret. I wonder if the tail piece base on Tommy Tedesco's has been repaired or replaced. A number of teens Gibson mandos had tailpiece bases w/12 hooks.

Bob

PS- enjoyed your mandolin playing on a couple of Django style jazz standard tunes you posted a couple of years back just after you had returned to the mandolin. On Django style jazz standards when playing w/a regular group of friends, I mostly play a brass bodied 1930s National guitar w/a spyder bridge lap style w/a Stevens bar, but play acoustic mandolin on "All of Me" and "Djangology".

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## John Rosett

Thanks Bob. I play lap steel also, and have been working on some HC tunes, as well as some other swing standards.

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## Bob Bass

Hi Folks-

Looks like I need to modify my post #97! After looking closely at the Heritage Auction pix of both the Kessel and Tedesco A50-12 Mandolins, it is more likely that the A40-12 mandolin at Elderly is the A40-12 that Cafe member abaird85 borrowed in 2017. And my remark on the fret #s at the neck joint for the two A50-12s should be disregarded.

Sorry for the error! Just jumped on it a bit too quickly without enough consideration.

Bob

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## allenhopkins

All of us with Gibson-esque tailpieces with the four "extra" hooks, originally designed to have the first two courses wrapped around the closer-to-the-bridge hooks, than anchored after a 90º bend to the perpendicular hooks further down -- we have to acknowledge that the _real_ reason for the design, was to provide 12 hooks total, to accommodate Kessel and Tedesco.

How did Orville G have such forethought?  A veritable Nostradamus...

Now, if the tension of 12 strings just didn't pull them tailpieces apart --

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Bob Bass, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Timbofood

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## MikeEdgerton

Indeed Allen and anyone wanting further confirmation of Allen's insight into Orville's genius could also look at *this* page on Frank Ford's www.frets.com to see a Gibson tailpiece strung the way it was intended and straight away as well.

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allenhopkins, 

Timbofood

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## beatlegeo

> Hello! I'm hoping someone can help me in this search for info on a Gibson mandolin. This photo was in the booklet from the Beach Boys "Pet Sounds Sessions" box set. Barney Kessel is holding what looks like a Gibson mandolin with 12 strings, and the instrument appears to be acoustic since a microphone is placed near the F hole just at the bottom of the shot and I see no signs of a pickup. I have found little information on this instrument other than this photo, and I've been looking for other photos and answers for years.
> 
> 
> 
> Was this a production model Gibson that would have been in their catalog, or was this a custom order for Barney, or even another session musician? Was this instrument electric, or acoustic? What year or era does it appear to be by the features shown in the photo? The only guess I can offer is that it may be closer to a Vox Mandoguitar, where it is tuned like a guitar but strung in pairs like a mandolin minus the octave strings of a normal 12-string.
> 
> Thank you in advance for any help or info, as this info could help settle a lot of questions and discussions. Specifically, one of them is whether this very instrument could have been used by Barney to play the intro to "Wouldn't It Be Nice" on Pet Sounds.
> 
> Thank you!


Here's the closest I can find for you.     http://www.vintageinstruments.com/mu...-4fulpage.html         He could have had it altered to a 6 course std. 12 string set up, by changing out the nut, and sanding down the bridge, and re-cutting  the slots???  As a luthier, this is possible, but I'm not too sure about the instrument being able to handle the physical stress of the octaves, however the instrument (presumably by the "Truss Rod" cover) HAS an adjustable Truss Rod? Could maybe begin the octaves at the "D", instead of at the "G"?  And use .008 (or less) diameter plains as much as possible.  Hope this helps?  I had never seen this before myself, but being on the "WRECKING CREW" anything could be possible, Ha!   Gb   beatlegeo

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