# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  eBay experiences from Hell

## Mike Romkey

Like most of you I've bought and sold things on eBay and have learned the hard way a B.S. degree in the school of hard knocks. I _thought_ I had eBay figured out and knew how to avoid all the pitfalls. To buy something from me (in this case, an Apogee Duet) you had to have a PayPal account, a positive track record, and be willing to pay immediately. With those kind of conditions, I thought, what could go wrong? 

Oh, my foolish pride! 

End of March I put the Apogee for sale, instantly sell it, instantly get paid. As promised, the next day I box it up, take it to the Post Office and ship it Prioirty Mail, insured. 

That's when the fun starts. 

Within a few days I begin getting series of increasingly strident eBay messages wondering where the Duet is. They start out kind of "Where is my purchase!?!!" and over the course of a few days devolve into accusations of theft and fraud. A case is opened against me. 

This goes on until I figure, Phillip Marlow like, that the buyer has in fact moved to a new state without bothering to change her eBay shipping address. 

The rest of the story involves the Post Office -- or rather the Post Office's stunning ineptitude. I know the package is sitting in Allentown, but I can't get them to forward it or send it back. I submit a "return to sender" form. They ship it from Allentown to Philly, and then from Philly to Allentown. I, the sender, am in Illinois. 

Do you know there is no way to call or email the Post Office if you ship somebody, say, a new Duff F-5 and it ends up just sitting in the Post Office in Allentown? I get so frustrated I involve a local Congressman. His office thinks they can get the package back, but thus far haven't had any better luck than I. 

The local PO customer rep has been helpful and sympathetic but the Duet still doesn't return. We track it by its Priority Mail number and repeatedly ask for it to be returned. It goes to Philly and sits for nine days. 

More complaints from the buyer. More phone calls and emails from the post office rep and Congressman's staff. At last, on Friday, the tracking system says the package has left Philly. The rep tells me I'll have it Monday. 

Monday gets here. Tuesday. Wednesday. No Apogee. I go to the post office for (literally) like about the 12th time. By now they know me. I don't have to stand in line. They just call the service rep on the intercom when I walk in the door. 

The package has left Philly but has not been checked in anywhere else. 

I refund the buyer's money, which PayPal has locked up in my account anyway. In another week I'll subit an insurance claim. 

So to my growing school-of-hard-knocks eBay rules:

1. Confirm the shipping address with the buyer before shipping. Don't take the one eBay gives you for granted. 

2. Don't use the USPS. Use FedEx or UPS. 

Oye veh. 

MR

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## Ed Goist

Wow Mike, how awful! What a nightmare.
Since you have refunded the buyer, I certainly hope you get the Apogee back, or at least get it covered by insurance.
Would a "signature required on delivery" have prevented the problem? I think one can ship USPS sig required(?)
Hope it works out as well as possible.

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

This is really terrible Michael, and I can't even begin to know what you had been through.  Hopefully there is a happy ending to the story in a week or so.  And yes sounds like UPS or FedEx is the way to go.

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## f5loar

I would let the blame fall on the buyer for not changing their shipping addresses when they moved.  That being said they should expect a long delay as a result of their neglict not yours.  This is the reason I pass on these new fad buddle packages for internet,tv and phone.  You would have to change everything for 6 mos. when they jack up the price back to what you were paying before you got your steal of a deal on the bundle and then you change it again.  Not worth the hassle to do all the changes on your end IMO.

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## Bernie Daniel

Wow sorry to  hear that story.  Good luck to you in the resolution.   That's a pretty nerve wracking thing to have to endure.  In my court the buyer would be hung out to dry because it seems to me that it should be his/her responsibility to supply the seller with a valid address?  Isn't this a no-brainer?

If one moves to a different state and fails to update their PayPal address information how is ANY third party supposed to know that?  It seems hard to believe that eBay would be very sympathetic to such buyer negligence.  Obviously they supplied the seller, you (through PP), an invalid mailing address?   

More and more I am coming to the conclusion that eBay has outlived its usefulness to me -- it seems to have become a cess pool of politically correct nonsense and arcane rules that leaves the sellers hanging in the wind?  Just my opinion though.

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## rgray

Shame you had to suffer for the buyer's failures but I think the main take-away is to avoid the Post Office.  Their ineptitude seems to be your biggest problem.  Though it never got to it, I would add requiring signature service which I believe eBay recommends for purchases over $250.  The entire not delivered rules are complicated but it appears to be written with the assumption that you get it back from the shipper.  If the reason for non-delivery was because you used the eBay or PayPal address provided to you, and the buyer still wants the item, they pay the additional shipping fee.   http://pages.ebay.com/help/pay/shipping-problems.html If they want to walk away from the purchase, it appears you are out the first shipment fees.  Once the buyer opened a case against you, it will normally be considered part of your seller's performance review.  eBay MAY not count a case upon review if the case was opened by a buyer when the seller was provided with the inaccurate shipping address.  http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/cases.html#removed

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## Theo W.

That's terrible! I do some selling on Amazon of random items such as movies or old games or anything I can find really. The other day I sold a game and shipped it, the buyer emailed me saying they received an envelope torn open with no game in it. Well, I didn't have insurance put on it this one time and I of course had to refund the buyer... Live and learn!

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## Nonprophet

You wrote:

_So to my growing school-of-hard-knocks eBay rules:

1. Confirm the shipping address with the buyer before shipping. Don't take the one eBay gives you for granted._

You have to be careful with that as well as Paypal's "Seller Protection" only applies if you ship to the buyer's "paypal verified address." If you ship to any other address (and there are scammers on feebay who try this.....) then they can pretty much keep the package, say they never got it, and you have no recourse unless you requested a signature.

NP

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## Mike Romkey

Another nuance learned, Nonprophet. Excellent point. 

Thanks all for the sympathy. I just wanted to vent. (g) The only "horrible" aspects was having the buyer think I was ripping her off. 

BTW, the shipping method I used does require signature, and yes, it really was her fault over the address, although it took the post office to elevate it to the realm of Kafka. I am so glad I ensured the shipment, which I don't always bother to do, naive lamb that I am ... or was ... in the crooked ways of USPS Priority Mail.

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## Ed Goist

For everyone's info: 
I have a friend who sells a great deal on ebay, and he recently told me that ebay has shifted its philosophy somewhat to pretty much always side with the buyer. 
He claims that over the past few months this has become quite extreme.

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## Bob Borzelleri

I bought a windscreen for a scooter off eBay.  The picture showed the correct windscreen and when the box arrived, it had the correct part number printed on the outside.  Problem came when I opened the box to find the wrong model had been stuffed in. The seller blew off my emails so I opened a Paypal claim. In the meantime I researched a bit and discovered that the seller was a guy who had shut the doors on his motorcycle shop and was selling off his inventory.  

As part if the Paypal dispute, I was instructed to return the item to the shipper. Problem was his return address was a vacant building.  I had found his current address but PayPal staff told me that I had to return it to the address they had on file even if I knew it to be a dead end which might result in he package being lost or stolen.

Long story short, while I was working wth Paypal CS to arrive at a retune option that made sense, my time to return the item expired and I was told that my dispute was decided in favor of the seller.

Since I had used American Express for the Paypal payment, I then opened a dispute with Amex and they took on PayPal and won for me. Take away lesson when using Paypal is that they favor the seller in most instances and I will never use PP without paying with a credit card that will take PP on for a dispute.

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## Nonprophet

+1!

Never, EVER, pay for anything with Paypal NOT using your credit card!!!  If the money comes right out of your bank account, you have little to no leverage with Paypal if a problem arises and you're not happy with how paypal deals with it. 

If you pay with a credit card, the card issuer can and will act on your behalf.  Paypal knows this, and they go to great lengths to try and convince people into paying directly from their bank account so they don't have to deal with credit card issuers acting on your behalf. They are VERY sneaky about this (if you try and switch your source of funding to a credit card little pop-up windows come up saying in effect "are you sure?" and then they list the "benefits" of direct withdrawal--all self-interested attempts to steer you away from using a credit card...), and it's one of the things I really hate about Paypal......


NP

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## rgray

I also don't like how PayPal steers toward the bank withdrawal and I always have to go through the process to use my credit card.  It's either they have to pay a credit card surcharge or I miss out on credit card points on an account that is paid off monthly.  I win!   :Grin:  

I agree with Ed that eBay has leaned excessively toward the buyer and this is a major bone of contention with many long-standing sellers.  Not sure about PayPal.  I had one experience of "not as advertised" with a simple Kentucky 160.  The seller cut-n-paste a description from one of many Internet dealers and I thought it was a good deal.  Turned out to be an older model (plywood vs. solid wood was the major drawback.)  I filed a case and got my refund to include all shipping charges, even what I paid to ship back to the seller.  But I look at the policy now and it says "significantly" not as advertised, which I'm not sure I remember.  I could see losing out with the term "significant".  (A KM-160 was advertised, you got a KM-160, kwitcherbichin.)

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## Jim Nollman

I used to use EBay all the time, but stopped a few years ago, because it seems to be mostly populated by "pros" who are selling the same stuff, without the corporate backup you'd find on, say, Amazon. I will consider using EBay, when i am definitely in the market for something old, antique, second-hand, but not a musical instrument.  If I'm looking for something new, forget it. Amazon offers me free shipping, i don't even have to give them my credit card # because I trust them enough to keep it attached to my account. 

The only major glitch i ever had with EBay was buying an old Kay mandolin. It arrived here with a partially detached neck. Noticing all the dirt and grime in the crack, it was clear to me, and my local luthier, that no one had played this broken instrument for many years. I sent photos to the seller. He was really a jerk, sent me an email all in capitol letters, blaming me for breaking it on purpose just to hound him. When that failed to quiet me, he wrote another one, insisting  that it had been broken in transport (Fedex). I didn't want to deal with him, and immediately complained to EBay. I included the sellers' letters to me, a letter from my luthier with his price to repair the crack and a few other things, plus a photo of the grime encrusted Kay. 

EBay was great. They asked me if i wanted to return it at full recompense. I felt the instrument showed real promise as a player, so i suggest that the guy return $100 of the $300 sale price for not showing an accurate photo, and to pay the full amount of the luthier's quote.  The guy had 300 sales on EBay. He didn't want to get kicked off EBay, so he complied.  I still own the instrument. I play it mostly in my living room to learn new tunes. 

I had the hunch that the guy was not trying to cheat me, but that he was an estate buyer, and had bought a large lot of old goods, and had tried to sell it off piece by piece before examining any of it very closely. And he knew nothing about musical instruments. But his manner was way out of line, and it burned me out.  I have never bought another mandolin on EBay, and now use the Cafe's classifieds exclusively.

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## delsbrother

Wow, I wish eBay had this bias towards buyers when I had my dispute with an eBay "power seller" who emailed me to "go ahead and make your claim - I will win and you will get NOTHING!"

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## Nonprophet

I agree with what others have noted that the pendulum has swung way, way over to the buyer's side on feeBay these days.  Unfortunately, there were a fair number of scammer sellers and feeBay was afraid that if they didn't crack down on make the place more "buyer friendly" that word would get out and people would stop shopping there.

Of course what they forgot is that they make their money from the SELLERS, and I know quite a few people that have simply stopped selling on feeBay due to all the hassles and the ever-increasing fees.


NP

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## Goodin

It seems like less people are using Ebay these days, probably for many of the reasons you guys state in this thread.  I just saw a nice 1924 Gibson F-4 listed with no reserve go for $4600.  I believe the low highest bid was due to a lack of multiple interested bidders.  I think too many people have been jaded by bad experiences with Ebay and don't use it anymore.

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## Eddie Sheehy

Sorry to hear all that Mike.  I hope it works out well for you.

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## andyowens

Ebay is so fun. Last month, I had a student wanting something in the $400 to $500. I saw a nice mando on ebay, pics really nice, nice wood, looked hand made, bid on it. Well, was looking again, saw exactly the same pics but no bid by me, I thought maybe my bid just didnt go in or something, so I bid on it. So, next thing you know, I have won not one, but TWO auctions for a mando, one for 365 one for 385. I look closer, same EXACT pics, two different sellers, so, I call bullcorn on the deal, email them both, saying what is the deal, how do two people sell the same mando. Now, both these people are in HOuston, both Asian, both jerky and with over 10,000 sales each, so I guess they are real. I tell them both, send me real pics of the mando you are going to sell me and I will consider closing the deal. Both never explain why they have the same pics, one just says the pics are "typical" of the mandolins they sell, bull!!  One of them sends me another set of pics, again, really nice wood, looks like a $7500 mando, but, no bridge on it, no pics of the peghead, who knows. Send him an email "why send me a pic of a mando with no bridge, is it playable?" They write back, snotty, "why would we sell a mando not playable? Dont send me any more emails, only send me money, but my paypal is messed up, send money order" Right, yeah I'm gonna do that...ha ha.  Anyway, both have filed unpaid item claims on me, a real pain becuase lots of people wont let you bid with those on there. Both wont return my emails, so there you go. SO beware, one is violinking, one is houstonbrass.

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## MikeEdgerton

The mandolins you are describing have been discussed here several times. One cafe member actually bought one. Save your money and don't go though with the deal.

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## mrmando

Yes, those Houston sellers are #### merchants, but part of Andy's problem seems to be unfamiliarity with how to use eBay. Your "My eBay" page will show you the items you are bidding on ... there was no reason for you to enter another bid on a duplicate item.

When dealing with an unfamiliar seller, it can be a good idea to look at the other items that seller is selling or has sold.

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## michaelpthompson

File a fraud claim with eBay. They are very good at buyer protection. Otherwise you just look like somebody who doesn't pay.

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