# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  Looks like Flatiron's back

## Steve Perry

Well, the name Flatiron anyway. #I was in First Quality last night picking up some strings when on my way out the door I spied what looked to be a blonde Gibson F-9 hanging on the wall. #It actually turned out to be a Flatiron... F hole, blonde, tortoise top bound body, aaaannnddd... X-braced. #Jeff told me that they are US made (Gibson/Opry Mills, I assume) and that within a year an F style oval hole and an A style with F or Oval, all X-braced will be available. #Street price on the one at FQMS was $2275, I think. #As far as fit, finish... #think Gibson F-9. #Tone?... again, think F-9... maybe just a tad softer, rounder... #not quite as punchy.

Steve Perry

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## flairbzzt

It makes sense that they broaden their offerings in that price range. Everybody knows or can find out here the difference between 1st, 2nd, and now 3rd generation Flatirons. X-bracing is interesting.

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## Nathan Sanders

You gotta be kiddin' me? Big Joe, where are you? Is this true?

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## tiltman

Any Gibson oval holes on the way???
Kirk

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## Chip Booth

Wow, this could be fun.

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## J. Mark Lane

Hm. Vertical restraints, coupled with horizontal integration. Now all we need is price fixing.... Or...do we already have that? I forget.

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## Big Joe

Guys...we are always busy trying to get you some great products. #Just be a bit patient and see what may turn up. #I think you are going to like it!  .

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## acousticphd

Wait - so what the whole years-plus long shpiel we read here, there, and everywhere how the venerable Flatiron name had been retired, there were no future plans to revive Flatiron instruments (except in the cheap plywood Opryland souvenir toys), how Gibson would only be competing with itself by continuing to make Flatirons, etc,etc? Why not just offer the Gibson F9X, F9O, etc?  

Not a criticism, just confused bemusement. Or bemused confusion.

Now, if they bring back the A Jr, I might perk up.

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## om21ed

"I spied what looked to be a blonde Gibson F-9 hanging on the wall. It actually turned out to be a Flatiron... F hole, blonde, tortoise top bound body, aaaannnddd... X-braced.... was $2275"

Big Joe,
Any chance of a radiused fretboard on something like that ?
Please. Man, I think that would be my dream.

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## Ken Berner

This sort of reminds me of the Judd's so-called "Farewell Tour". Finally, we thought they were outta here and damned if they didn't show up again. Wasn't too long ago, someone at Gibson was knocking X-bracing in mandolins, as something that would not stand the test of time, etc. Maybe Steve Carlson and sevceral other fine luthiers were not so stupid after all. Anyway, this latest news is very interesting and the Flatiron name lives on, and on. I want to play one (or more) as soon as they become available. Now, how will the dealership system work with the Flatiron name; same as Gibson?

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## Wesley

I guess I've been suprised that Gibson doesn't currently offer any oval hole mandolins. I hope that is going to change.

Dare I ask where these Flatirons will be sold {as I prepare to duck and run for cover}?

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## pickinNgrinnin

Not surprised. The venerable Flatiron brand is too marketable to retire. Now it's back but not as before. A 4th generation line perhaps downgraded from it's kin. X braced to boot. That seems to fly in the face of previous OAI leadership.

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## Big Joe

Flatiron has always had X braced mandolins as part of its lineup. We never intended Flatiron to be dead forever, just had to find its place in our lineup. This is a project that has been worked on for a very long time until the right product at the right price and the right time came together. I think it is worth the wait. 

The Flatirons will be available through the Gibson Bluegrass Dealers just like the other bluegrass products. We are still in the early stages, so don't run out to find a bunch of them yet. In the next couple months we hope to have a supply available. Again, I think you are going to like what is to come.

Remember also, we had to do a lot of work to get the Gibson mandolin back where it needed to be and as close to the original as we could. Once that was accomplished (thought we NEVER stop working on making everything better), we had opportunity to spread our wings. OAI is a small division and nothing seems to come fast.

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## Nolan

Wait a second ... what was all that talk about X braced mandos crapping out over time and the Loar being the gold standard ?!?    

Maybe for the Flatiron line they could use a really old X braced Gilchrist for the gold standard! That would be cool!

Actually, I'm pretty interested. I'm sure they'll be great.

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## John Flynn

> The Flatirons will be available through the Gibson Bluegrass Dealers


Yeah, all three of them!

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## AlanN

Boy, you guys are ready to pounce on anything/everything Gibson does/doesn't do. This attention and scrutiny are either very flattering to the firm or annoying (or neither).

Let them boys do their business, buy 'em if you like 'em, don't if you don't.

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## J. Mark Lane

> ... so don't run out to find a bunch of them yet. #


Darn...and it would have been such a nice jog.... All the way to, what, California?

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## Big Joe

Hey J.Mark Lane...you could be like Forrest Gump...he liked jogging. Only thing was, he did not play the mandolin. Oh well, I guess you can't have everything!  .

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## J. Mark Lane

Well, I can't play the mandolin, either. (Assuming I could fine one.   )

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## Wesley

Joe - A serious question please. About oval mandolins - do you see the market improving for ovals ? I'm sure that F hole A styles are better sellers in the long run but a lot of us are interested in Gibson bringing back an oval hole mandolin. Any thoughts on recreating the snakeheads of years gone by ?

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## Dave Schimming

Glad to see that the resurrected Flatiron will be American made and not a pacrim job.

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## fatt-dad

I'm curious. . . .

fatt wondering-about-a-new-pancake dad

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## Tom C

Gibson will bring back ovals. Price them above Flatiron, them drop the flatiron line again.

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## delsbrother

Are all these new Flatirons made in the USA?

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## flairbzzt

I'm anxious to see an F in blonde  ! I wonder why Elderly wasn't the first dealer to carry these??

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## mandoJeremy

I think that you guys who are speaking of the whole x-braced, OAI against it thing should do some research on this message board and you would see that BigJoe has always liked the x-braced mandos and wanted to build one at Gibson. He even said that he and Charlie didn't agree on x-braced mandos. I am always happy to see a new product and I think I am going to have to go down to the Showcase to play one of these Flatirons.

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## Mando4Life

And I was just saying to the wife...we need to head down Louisville way soon.....awww...such timing.

That's cool they are bringing them back. I almost bought one as my first. The few I played were some nice mandolins.

WBL

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## BigJoe

Oval holes??? Blondes??? X braces??? What will we think of next! Just keep a bit patient. You may be greatly overjoyed. Flatiron is not our only product, by the way. Oh, for those that asked. The Flatiron line is ALL American made...right in Nashville...right at Opry Mills.

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## Pete Braccio

This all sounds great to me. I'm looking forward to seeing what Big Joe and his co-workers are going to introduce. This could be an interesting couple of months.

Pete

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## mrbook

A new line of mandolins sounds good to me, too. It's too bad Gibson didn't think to use Flatiron like they used Epiphone in the 60s - as a line of good instruments for non-Gibson dealers to carry. I probably won't see one too soon - not that it would keep me from wanting one.

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## Willie Poole

FISH....And I thought I was good at luring fish in....Watch out for that Gibson lure.....Why would they put the same axpertise into a mando and sell it cheaper? If it looks loke an F-9 why isn`t it sold as an F-9???I`m glad I have all and what I need....Willie

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## jim simpson

Willie,
That's a Lloyd Lure - sorry that joke smells fishy!
Jim

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## Nick Triesch

Big Joe, Since the new Flatirons will be priced lower than the Gibson line I think you folks should sell them at places like Guitar Center and make them availible to the many folks who can afford them. Also you could sell them at the local guitar stores in neighborhoods all over America.  It would be just like the Flatiron of the old days!!!! A great mandolin for not a ton of cash. I think you would sell a ton of them.  Nick....the real mandocat!

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## Ken Berner

Hey Nick, Do you suppose we can get some sort of travel allowance to go test these new Flatirons for ourselves? I sure don't like buying something sight-unseen; 48 hours is not enough time to test drive a mandolin, either! Maybe Gibson will offer an air shuttle service for us folks who live nowhere near an authorized dealer.

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## Nathan Sanders

Man, I can't wait to see what Gibson has up their sleeve. I wonder what this will do the value of Montana-made Flatirons. Hey Big Joe,...oh wait....I was going to ask if there will be a new Flatiron Army-Navy model but you probably cannot reveal details like that yet...Ok...I will wait. Like many, I kind of want an oval hole F or A model. I think a Gibson A-9 with an oval hole would be really cool. Would that be an A-4?

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## Nick Triesch

Bummer Ken you live so far away. I guess I'm lucky. I only live 650 miles away from my nearest Gibson dealer! Let's see, I do own a tent trailer. Hey Ken, I will alway have a soft spot for Flatiron because It was my very first mando. I bougfht one of those cool little flat mandolins for $300 in 1979. It was blond with birdseye maple and sounded really cool. Then later I had a cool F5 Artist (Weber signed) for about 6 years. I really like Flatiron.  Just wish I could play one when they arrive!! Nick :Smile:

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## pickinNgrinnin

[QUOTE]I think that you guys who are speaking of the whole x-braced, OAI against it thing should do some research on this message board and you would see that BigJoe has always liked the x-braced mandos and wanted to build one at Gibson. 

I was referring to Charlie when I mentioned former OAI leadership. I'm glad to see the line coming back. Over the years, the Flatiron name has been associated with great quality and value.

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## Big Joe

Ok. Here goes. I'm trying to make your dreams come true. I have 3 Flatirons in stock. One is an oval hole A model. One is an oval hole F model The other is an A model with F holes. They are all blonde and soung GREAT! I don't have the price yet, but will post it as soon as I get it firmed up. It is a great product at a great price! I don't try to sell on this forum, but you can reach me at 615-533-6830 or the store at 615-514-22-- x 3006. They won't last long!

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## Jack Roberts

> One is an oval hole F model


!!!Gasp!!!

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## Big Joe

Now I'm gonna make your day. The F model Oval hole list is $2495.00 and the A model Oval hole or F hole is $1695.00. You will love these! Price is right and the tone is right. What more could one want!

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## man doh

Any photos?

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## JEStanek

Wow. Great news Joe. Can't wait to see photos and hear reviews.

Jamie

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## thistle3585

How is it different, other than the X bracing, from an A-9?

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## johnsmusic

Bang! Pulled the trigger on the F Oval, having the Baggs installed. Thanks, Big Joe

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## Moose

You da' man, Joe!!

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## Nick Triesch

I wonder what Charlie D thinks about all this?  I know he is very traditional in his thinking. But it just seems like a great idea bringing back Flatiron. I wonder if part of all this is why Charlie left the mandolin dept.? Anyway, I do wish Gibson would wise up and sell Flatiron in music stores like most big makers do.  Flatirons priced right should be sold where everyone can try them . Nick

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## J. Mark Lane

> ...What more could one want!


Uh...fair and reasonable marketing practices? A willingness to live side by side with the competition? An understanding that filing lawsuits against your best distributors is not a very nice thing to do? 

Nah. These things are, well, obviously just too much to expect of a Great Company like Gibson. 

Flatiron Schmatiron. Who cares? Not me.

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## flairbzzt

I guess we could all be armchair marketing guys, but at this price point, it's good business. Right now you've got Eastman atop things in the far east producers with their prices under the "flats", and Bruce Weber's instruments that had been in the same range but have gone up as their reqested discount from list for their dealers was cut in half and they seem to put out more upgraded models. And maybe, just maybe, they're trying to make things up from big $$ losses of the high end standards. I think the pricing in these economic times will give them back some of this cash flow. But what do I know-I'm an electrician (who plays acoustic).

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## Jack Roberts

> Bang! Pulled the trigger on the F Oval, having the Baggs installed. Thanks, Big Joe


Thanks, man. You probably saved my marriage by snagging that before I could get home and start begging...

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## Tim Saxton

Makes me wonder if Eastman and others are getting in to Gibson's lower end pocket book?? 

Don't let that market get away!!!!

Tim

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## A9cp

"Makes me wonder if Eastman and others are getting in to Gibson's lower end pocket book?? ""

You bet

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## yoods

Big Joe,
I was trying to stay out of this thread, but you got me curious

On the oval F, what will the fret board width be at the nut, and what will the length of the fret board be like, an F-4 or F-5? 

Lastly, will the width and fret board length be the same for the A model (as the F)? 

I can wait for these answers until you really come out with the new Flatiron line, but if you are willing to go into the details now

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## freddyu

My 2 cents or theory on this sudden revival of Flatiron. In 2001 Gibson discontinues flatiron production to come out with the F9 and F5g. In my local Gibson store the F9 retails for over $3000.00 and an F5g their asking over $4000, I think. In the meantime you've got all these Montana flatirons and the Nashville flatirons out there selling for around 1800-2500. Who in the know is gonna pay 3k and 4k for the new Gibson line when you can buy the exact equivalent in a used Flatiron. So if you are Gibson, come back out with a maybe lesser quality flatiron to compete with the past really good flatirons. Muddy the flatiron waters a little bit and get back into the 1500-2500 mando market, which is probably where most folks are. Maybe this switch to fewer dealers and way higher prices ain't work'in out so well. Just a thought. Not bashing Gibson, I love my 2001 Nashville made Flatiron (read "F5G")that I bought used last year for a great price.

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## arbarnhart

My opinion... 

I think Eastman in particular (though there are others) lowered the premium for "final purchase". I know that is a foreign concept to a lot of MAS sufferers, but a lot of amateur musicians work their way up to a premium instrument and then just play that one the rest of their lives. Gibsons are in that class. I think Eastmans are perceived as being in that class by a lot of us (myself included). I am using the word "perceived" because I don't want to argue whether it is true or not; it doesn't matter. What matters is that more people are getting that lifetime instrument without getting into the $2K+ range, so they never really even consider a Gibson product. Seems like they could have filled out the Epi line a little more, but then it would be a "me too". But bringing back US made Flatirons gives them a distinction. I think it's a smart play.

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## Lane Pryce

Anyone have any pics or a link to pics of these new Flatirons?
Lp

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## GTison

Flatiron is a great brand name. Gibson paid good money for it. I think it is a good idea to use it. One can't ignore competition like any of the pac rims esp. the Chi-Coms. I think you also have to look at the Oval hole issue here. When vintage F-2s and F-4s are priced as high as they are it's time for Gibson to make some attempt at the market.  Martin guitar once said that it's biggest competition is the vintage market of use Martin guitars. Perhaps this is true to a degree here as well. Also This revival of Flatiron seems like it has been in the works for a while maybe even before they discontinued the line.

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## flairbzzt

Well if I sell the boat in the driveway maybe I can swing one......so what if it's not my driveway!

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## mandoJeremy

Hey freddyu, the F-5G has been around quite a few years before 2001.

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## Nathan Sanders

I bought my F-5G new in 1996. It was built in 1995 in Montana. I'm really excited to see the new Flatirons by the way.

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## sgarrity

F-style oval hole...........hhmmmmm, where'd I put that checkbook.......:p

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## Jim Garber

I am waiting for a three point... 

Jim

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## man doh

Did I miss something. What do these new Flatirons look like? Any photos Big Joe?

Rumor has it they have a gold silk screened flatiron logo.

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## Rob Griffin

I am curious that since the Flatirons appear to be less expensive than their Gibson counterparts, what are the construction and materials differences that allow Gibson to still make a profit at the lower prices? Such as, is the neck a bolt on neck? I know the Gibson name and mojo on the headstock is probably part of the difference but there must be some more tangible differences. Maybe Big Joe could chime in here or anyone else that has already seen or bought a new Flatiron.

thanks,
Rob

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## man doh

How did this topic die so fast??

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## Rob Griffin

man doh, I was wondering the same thing myself. I hope it wasn't anything I said. 

Rob

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## WireBoy

maybe we need some visuals or www links to see what all the fuss is (was) about?

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## johnsmusic

Big Joe has promised my F Oval hole by the weekend. Waiting not-so-patiently-John

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## man doh

DAY TWO of the Big Joe Stand Off!!!

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## fatt-dad

Yeah, where's the photos?

fatt stuck-with-a-dang-old-flatiron dad

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## BigJoe

Don't have any pictures. Do you think we have progressed into the 21st century??? Still working on the line and getting everything ready. No photos yet. I'll be happy to post as soon as I can get some, but don't be in too much of a rush.

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## PCypert

I am so jealous you beat me to the F oval. Serves me right for just logging on and checking the classifieds every day. Blonde with tortoise is my dream mandolin.
Paul

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## johnsmusic

F Oval hole has arrived. Had the Baggs installed. Sounds good for the few minutes that I have played it, looks fine, gotta catch a boat to a gig so I can't give all of my thoughts right now. Also, don't know if it's OK to put photos up (how about it Joe?) Satin finish, tortoise bound front, MOP "Flatiron" (not silkscreened) Unbound headstock.....gotta go....

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## Lee

John,if you own it, I see no reason you can't post photos.

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## BigJoe

Hey John...Knock yourself out. I hope you like it as much as we did in the shop.

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## jim_n_virginia

OK .... I have been sitting here for two freakin days now staring in this screen waiting patiently for a few pictures of the new Flatiron Oval Hole.

If this isn't CRUEL and unusual punishment I don't know what IS!

Come on have a freakin heart post some pics WILL YA!

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## johnsmusic

Sorry, later today. I play on the weekends on an island reachable only by boat. Takes up alot of my time and energy. Will shoot some photos this afternoon. Hang in there..

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## johnsmusic

I have been trying for an hour to upload photos and keep receiving the "files too big message no matter what size I reduce them to. What am I doing wrong? John

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## jasona

they have to fit the file size specifications. If you don't have image processing software, email them to me and I'll post them for you.

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## diamond ace

Oval holes??? Blondes??? X braces??? What will we think of next! Just keep a bit patient. You may be greatly overjoyed. Flatiron is not our only product, by the way. Oh, for those that asked. The Flatiron line is ALL American made...right in Nashville...right at Opry Mills. 

Joe, I don't think you invented any of the above ideas. Looks like gibson is just trying to get into the market that som eothers have been so sucessful in here latley to me. 

No flames please. I think it's great for gibson to finaly offer mandolins at a resonable price. I wouldn't look for those spec diferances to get posted no time sone if I were you. If their are no major differnaces how will they justify charging so much for for the ones that say Gibson.

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## BigJoe

Our bluegrass division has NEVER responded to what others are doing. We have always done what we think is best and possible for our facility to accomplish. In actuality, we did invent the modern mandolin and all of the various items I mentioned. That was not what I was referring to, but we did invent the modern mandolin body shape, extended fingerboards, eleveated bridges and adjustable, truss rods for adjustments, bracing patterns used by most on the planet, the modern pickguard, just about everything to do with modern mandolins. We don't have to worry about what others are doing in the market. We wish them well and hope they succeed at what they do. For us, we will continue to do what we do. Thank you.

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> In actuality, we did invent the modern mandolin and all of the various items I mentioned. #we did invent the modern mandolin body shape, extended fingerboards, eleveated bridges and adjustable, truss rods for adjustments, bracing patterns used by most on the planet, the modern pickguard


Yeah, but what has Gib$on done for us lately (last 75 years) ??

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## glauber

> In actuality, we did invent the modern mandolin and all of the various items I mentioned. That was not what I was referring to, but we did invent the modern mandolin body shape, extended fingerboards, eleveated bridges and adjustable, truss rods for adjustments, bracing patterns used by most on the planet, the modern pickguard, just about everything to do with modern mandolins.


Yowza, Joe! Gibson invented the carved top mandolin, but it's a big planet out there; there's a lot more to the modern mandolin than Gibson.

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## mandoJeremy

Here we go again! Just for the record though glauber, what can you specifically name about modern mandolins that Gibson didn't invent? I am curious to the answer.

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## mandoJeremy

Of course, leave out the Monteleone Grand Artist because that one speaks for itself.

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## BigJoe

Actually, Gibson did invent the carved top mandolin as well as most other features of the moderm mandolin. In the last number of years we have provided the best mandolins since Lloyd Loar and possibly ever. The MM and distressed MM are the equal or better than any other mandolin ever produced and this was done by using Gibson design and inventions solely. While John Monteleone makes a great product it is still largely a copy of what we designed. 

There are a number of good mandolin makers out there, but few who are not duplicating what we have already done eighty years ago. I encourage new and innovative design and work on the mandolin, but there has not been much in the last 100 years except what Gibson has done. Nearly everyone else takes what we set on the table and has just done the same basic thing over and over. Some of them do a very very good job at it, but not any better than we do. They have never beat the original and while they may make a beatiful mandolin, it is not that innovative. It would sure be great to see some of the talent and artistic ability many have to do something new and exciting.

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## J. Mark Lane

Does your arrogance really have no boudaries at all?

Your use of the word "we" is particularly amusing. #As if current OAI (really a useless term if ever there was one, as "OAI" is totally beholden to the Gibson corporate powers) was the same thing as Loar's shop of the 1920's. #You really could use a little bit of humility. #

That said, Gibson surely makes fine mandolins these days. #So do lots of other people. Most of them, however, do not go around loudly proclaiming that they are "the best." Presumably most of them realize how silly that would sound.

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## Jim Hilburn

Everyone who had anything to do with the creation of the modern mandolin is dead.

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## BigJoe

Mark...I have no problem believing the mandolins we make today are the best on the planet. I have played the best available and I am quite capable of telling the good ones from the rest. The MM and DMM are as good as any other ever made. Period. That is not arrogance. It is a fact. There are other really great mandolins and some really great builders, but they do not build a better one by any means. You may have a favorite that is not a Gibson, but it is no better than ours. Your personal animosity with Gibson over something that has nothing to do with you has clouded your rationale and that has been shown over and over. My rationale is clouded by the privilege I've had to play the very best of mandolins from all over the world. That has allowed me to develop my choice clearly. While I would certainly not turn down a few other mandolins if I had opportunity, and I've owned some incredible mandolins from other makers, none are any better than what I have now. I have recommended several other builders on this forum and personally to those who may not want a Gibson. I have no problem with that and I believe there are some INCREDIBLE builders out there, but none better than us. If I felt there was a better builder on the planet I would not want to work where I do. Part of the joy of my job is working with what I believe to be the best. 

Our division is no more beholden to the corporate entity than the mandolin division of Loar's era. Both are Gibson products. The current OAI is about as close to the original Gibson mandoin builders as it could get. We use the same woods, the same finish, the same methods and tools with few exceptions. We have good men and women who do the work who are as dedicated as any have ever been to what they do. While you may be blinded by ignorance of our operation, we do not have big corporate suits looking over our backs telling us how to make mandolins and destroy you and others. Our shop is in plain view of the world. You want to know how Gibson mandolins are built, come on in and see. You would be amazed at how little your perception has to reality.

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## J. Mark Lane

Joe,

How do you know what my "perception" is? Maybe my perception of how that shop looks and functions is completely in line with reality. That has nothing to do with it. 

And I did not say that the current shop is less beholden to the "suits" than Loar's was. I said that the term "OAI" is misleading. There is no OAI. It's just a division of Gibson. It's not even a separate subsidiary with separate corporate governance. It is totally in the control of the Gibson Board of Directors. Correct me if I am wrong. 

As for my "rationale" being "clouded," it is not. Plain and simple. Unlike yourself, I have no financial or vested interest in this discussion whatsoever. And I would maintain quite adamantly that, far from "having nothing to do with me," the Gibson policies and actions that have angered me have everything to do with me: they effect the market for an item that I love as much as you do. 

Recently, a very good independent luthier (who shall remain nameless) asked me, "Why are you so pissed off at Gibson?" I responded by pointing out that if Gibson had its way, none of his instruments would ever appear in the major acoustic instrument shops in this country. I think he "got it" at that point. 

But this wasn't, and isn't, about Gibson's corporate policies. What I was commenting on was the amazing (and embarassing, really) propensity you have to boldly assert that the product your employer makes is "the best in the world, bar none!" That's all fine as simple puffery, in an advertising context. But when you really mean it...when you expect people to take you seriously? Gimme a freakin break. You just sound foolish.

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## fatt-dad

> Our bluegrass division has NEVER responded to what others are doing. . . . . .We don't have to worry about what others are doing in the market.


(from the historical perspective. . .)

But you did buy Flatiron in response to what they were doing.

fatt I-have-no-dog-in-this-hunt dad

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## Hal Loflin

So.......LOOKS LIKE FLATIRON'S BACK....

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## mandoJeremy

Just my guess here but I think when Joe said our bluegrass division he was referring to the OAI division in Nashville and that wasn't around when they bought out Flatiron.

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## mandoJeremy

And I do agree with BigJoe on the Distressed Master Models and Master Models....I haven't played a mandolin that I would take over several DMMs and MMs that I have played. They certainly are the best in my opinion.

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## jasona

I interrupt this Gibson flamewar with a little eyecandy...

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## jasona

another...

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## jasona

and a third...

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## jasona

final image. Hope the Photoshopping hasn't hurt the images at all...

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## Lane Pryce

Jason thats a purty mandolin!! It reminds me of a Breedlove that I once had. I'll bet it has great tone. Congratulations on your new baby!! Joe show some pics of the F5's!! Lp

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## jasona

Its not mine. I photoshopped and posted these images for John.

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## glauber

> Here we go again! Just for the record though glauber, what can you specifically name about modern mandolins that Gibson didn't invent? I am curious to the answer.


Define modern mandolin, first.

But frankly, i don't care to be in this conversation. Carry on...

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## Mando4Life

Nice looking mandolin. Glad to see the line is coming back.

OAI...Original Acoustic Instruments...I think that is a suitable name.

WBL

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## mandoJeremy

That is very nice looking. #glauber, I would rather you define the term modern mandolin since those were your words. #I just used the term that you used. #But since you asked here is Webster's definition:

1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of the present or the immediate past : CONTEMPORARY b : of, relating to, or characteristic of a period extending from a relevant remote past to the present time
2 : involving recent techniques, methods, or ideas : UP-TO-DATE
3 capitalized : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of the present or most recent period of development of a language
4 : of or relating to modernism

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## glauber

mandoJeremy, if i believed that there would be the slightest profit, for anybody, in me getting involved in this "discussion", i'd be an even bigger fool than i'm willing to admit. As i said, kindly carry on without me.

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## Ted Eschliman

> The MM and DMM are as good as any other ever made. #Period. #That is not arrogance. #It is a fact. #There are other really great mandolins and some really great builders, but they do not build a better one by any means.


Amazing, five pages of thread that had every possibility of introducing unadulterated impartial opinion of a new Gibson OAI product. It was gaining momentum, unrelenting potential in neutral parties claiming positives and hope about a resurrected Flatiron product. Heck, even I was getting excited (one who suffers personally as a dealer, the ravages of Gibsons ugly maneuvering).

But like a 2nd grader trying to hatch an egg for a class science project by poking, prodding, pushing, the unbiased voice has to step in an offer his two cents, and once again, unremitting pro-Gibson arrogance, and unnaturally crack this egg before it can hatch of its own accord.

Those pictures are beautiful, certainly a line that appears quite promising. But why must OAIs biggest, most visible insider persist in peeing in his own pool with this narrow-minded pomposity?

How about giving it some time and letting Flatiron sell itself for once?

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## PhilGE

Wow, don't anyone tell any of the folks at Rigel about this thread. They haven't done anything innovative whatseover. Of course, we all know they're willing to make copies of Vega Cylinderback instruments, so, I guess they can't be all that original. I could take Mid-Mo to task, too, for their decidedly non-creative attempts to sell something *affordable with good tone* to most. And watch out, Dr. Cohen...

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## BigJoe

Rigel is one of the few innovators and I love what they do. However, they build a different product from ours, but not better. While some may decry the value of Gibson's place in the market for whatever reason, it is still as good a product as can be found period. It is not marketing or salesmanship that prompts my words. I make no more money if you buy one of our products or someone else's. I have my preferences just as you do. In addition, my voice is as valid whether I work for one company or another. Remember, I speak with my pocketbook just like you. If I felt there were a better product I would own it. I have been priveleged to own some great mandolins, but the current Gibson's are my choice and I have no problem standing by that. One of the reasons I work at Gibson is BECAUSE I belive they make the best. If I did not there would be no purpose for me being there. It may amaze some of you how many of us Gibson employees actually love the company we work for. We don't set policy and it does not matter what we think of the policy but we still love the product we build. If we did not think it was the best, why would we build it? Arrogance would be to buld a substandard instrument and proclaim it to be great. That is not the case. No one with any credibility would deny our instruments are great. They may not be the choice of some, but the certainly are top notch. It is not peeing in your pool to stand against the ridiculous statements of some who love to post on this forum constantly looking for an opportunity to blast what I spend a good share of my life doing. I don't put your product down, don't put mine down. Not a difficult concept. I have as much pride in what I do and who I do it for as anyone else on this forum for what they do. When I think Gibson is not doing the best it can on a daily basis to make the best product possible, I'll hang up my hat and go home and build my own or something.

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## Jeff Hildreth

" no one with any credibility would deny our instruments are great"

I will let that comment stand without comment except to say..

that comment and attitude are among reasons I will not own a Gibson product.

jjh

----------

> Rigel is one of the few innovators and I love what they do. #However, they build a different product from ours, but not better.


To be honest, I have to disagree. I played a Rigel G5 the it was that best sounding mandolin that I have ever played. Better than the half-dozen gib$son MM that I have played.

----------

I am actually disappointed in the looks of this mandolin. It looks cheap. It doesn't look as good as any blonde Eastman or any low-end Weber. 

And I liked the old Flatirons.

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## jasona

To be fair, the photograph wasn't well focused (no offence John), so I ran it through a few photoshop processes to clarify the image. I also increased the size of the image, and the pixel resampling isn't always true. What I'm tring to say is wait to pass judgement on the looks until you see a more lifelike, less computer enhanced, image.

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## Frank Russell

You know, I used to find a lot of Big Joe's statements arrogant and overbearing. Then I started thinking: this is not the guy that owns the company, or has his name on any model of Gibson mandolins. This is just a guy who takes great pride in his work and the products that he helps produce. I'd be a little sketchy about anybody who doesn't have this kind of fiery devotion to their product. He may come on a little strong at times, but I've never seen him say that Gibson is the only mandolin. He just believes nobody makes a better one. This is not a bad thing, especially if you are going to buy a mandolin from this man. I don't want a product whose makers say "well, it's pretty good," I want what that maker thinks is the best out there. It may be a little strongly stated at times, but it just seems like good old American pride in craftmanship to me. For what it's worth, the two Master Models and the two DMM's I've seen, played and heard were four of the top five mandolins I've ever held, and I've held a few.  I try to keep in mind that Big Joe is an invaluable resource of new information on upcoming Gibson products, and a voice for us mandolin lovers who would like to see the big company try some new things, like x-bracing and oval-holes. Add to that the fact that he is exceedingly ready to help out with any repair issue or questions Gibson owners might have. I am real glad to see Flatiron brought back, and could care less about any mando-political ramifications. There are bigger things to get worked up over right now. These Gibson threads even draw out sharp comments from usually even-tempered moderators. There's got to be something better for all of us to get so hot over. Geez, that was long. Frank

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## mandoJeremy

Well said frussell.

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## PCypert

Yeah,
If it were some other company we could all just enjoy a new offering out there. I could care less what Gibson's said in the past or have produced. I'm just glad they are putting out new oval hole mandolins (something I've been requesting from them and Collings - to sucess I might add...get ready for the Collings oval). 

I wish I had gotten it. I'm a photographer professionally and spotted the problems in the original capture immediately. It's still pretty plain, but it's also a prototype. Heck, still looks better than the Larrivees . I think with better lighting, camera, etc you'd see a whole different mandolin if I'm reading the image right.

I'm really glad for the price point and if Big Joe gets another one sqaured away to sell I plan on buying one of them. I used to work at Starbucks and people love to pick on who's on top. Same with America. People love to pick on us (I'm living in Thailand now and New Zealanders, Aussies, Europeans, etc) love to talk so much smack about us. If Gibson were just some other company people would really cut them some more slack. I think they do an amazing job considering the legacy, expectation, and everything else that's placed on them by other people. People knock the quality control and what not, but all the other builders aren't having to churn them out at quite the pace as Gibson. I've never wanted to own a new Gibson before this time (sorry Big Joe but I'm not a straight BG player). If I were I would have snapped up any of the Gibsons and had a great player. It's funny to hear all the post everytime Gibson is mentioned. There are some people who seem like they got beat up by a Gibson in the playground when they were a kid and now have their panties all in a wad as adults.

I've been sucked in now too to this discussion of things other than the actual instrument. I'm sorry for that. I'd love to hear more about the sound, playability, tone, etc. Can't wait to get my paws on one and try it for myself. I'm glad they're trying new things and hope that others will encourage them to continue expanding their horizons. I love reading about and playing new mandos.
Paul

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## good_ol_al_61

I've lurked around this thread since it's inception. I do not have any vested interest in this subject matter since none of the products I own and none of the persons involved I personally know or will know in the future. This is just an uninvolved, unemotional observation of what is continuing to be said here.

Big Joe: If you ever need work in a nice part of Florida, do not hesitate to call me first. If you can represent my product as well as you represent your current employer's product (even with all of the corporate hub-bub) with the confidence that you have displayed, you have a lifetime job here with me.

As with mandolin makers and instrument qualities, we all have an opinion based on our life experiences. That is my opinion of Big Joe from an employer's standpoint. 

Now, back to the regularly scheduled comment tossing.

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## thistle3585

I am always impressed by someone who gets excited about what they do. I honestly believe they couldn't maintain that level of commitment and loyalty if they didn't believe in what they were doing. I also think that attitude is infectous and will extend to Joe's employees which will only result in a better product and service.

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## John Ritchhart

It really makes 'em mad when we call it the "World Series" ! # #

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## jmkatcher

I like it quite a lot, but I prefer spare looking instruments. Comparing it to a plain Weber is a compliment, not an insult, if anyone has looked closely at the woodwork on those models.

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## stevem

No political comments to make here. I'm just happy to see Flatiron is back in production and expanding its horizons. The history of Flatiron is one of development and change while still making quality, affordable mandolins. I'm glad to see the experimentation with new designs and finishes. 

The basic F-4 design is, to myself and others, the apex of mandolin beauty. The more the merrier, IMO. 

The only problem is that now when a newbie asks for an opinion on Flatirons we have one more era to explain. For simplicity sake let's just call it the "post Montana Steve Carlson, Bruce Weber, post Gibson buyout and move to Nasville and then eventually shutting down in 2001 (date?) but now reopened in 2005 Era".

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## fatt-dad

Flatiron, Flatson, Flatson-Nash, New Flatson-Nash

f-d

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## AlanN

Flotsam and Jetsam.

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## Tom C

I'm disappointed by the looks but I guess this would be equal to the Festival model. No headstock,fretboard and back binding. No rosette around sound hole, no fretboard extension. But for $2XXX + you can't have everything. I bet a higher model will be made available with those options for a bit more $. Then of course a Gibs*n version will come out for about 10 grand more.

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## fatt-dad

Then again for about $3,000.00 you can have an independent builder make you a nice F-4 with binding all around, a varnish finish and gold hardware. That is if you want something like that. . . . 

f-d

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## Nathan Sanders

I like the looks of the new Flatiron! Thanks for the pictures. Hey, if you want to send the original full size pictures or even better pictures of it, I'd be happy to set up a web page for all to view.

As for the heated discussion about Gibson--please give it a rest already. I really do not understand why some people get so passionate about their disgust with Gibson. In my opinion, Gibson still makes the best mandolins. I have 2 Gibsons, plus a Montana era Flatiron, all of which are awesome instruments. Now that is not to say that today's independent builders do not compare. On the contrary, there are some fantastic builders. In fact, I know of a Summit mandolin which I hope I can buy someday soon when I get the bucks. And I'm still keeping Pomeroy in the back of my mind. And I've been really amazed at the few players who have protested Gibson by either scratching the name off the peghead or taping over it, yet they still play the instrument? Hmmmm....anyway....let's talk more about the new Flatirons. I'm anxious to see what they have up their sleeve.

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## J. Mark Lane

> Then again for about $3,000.00 you can have an independent builder make you a nice F-4 with binding all around, a varnish finish and gold hardware. #That is if you want something like that. . . . 
> 
> f-d


LOL! Right. Assuming you would want such a dreadful thing (and mine from Don Paine will be here any day now).

But then...all those independent luthiers are just a bunch of pathetic hacks, copy-catting Gibson...and Gibson makes the Best Mandolins In the Whole Wide World, Bar None, Period, End of Story, and Everyone Else Is Just Trying to Copy Gibson and Doing a Poor Job of It. Yes. That is The Absolute Truth. ..... Just ask Gibson.

As for giving it a rest...well, I've thought about it...and in a word, well, ... No.

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## AlanN

Joe, Joe, Joe...

Take it from me, you will NOT get the last word in here, just go pick Big Sandy River, or Crazy Creek, or Wheel Hoss, or Dawg's Bull (advice I think about 80% of the people here could stand to heed...or not).

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## mikeh

what's the difference between an attorney and a beligerent chicken?


The chicken clucks defiance (rim shot)

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## Tim Saxton

J. Mark Lane,

I love you man. You always say what I have thought and never had the brain wattage to come up with.

Thanks man!!

Tim Saxton

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## fatt-dad

Upon reflection. . . .

Flatiron, Flatson, Nash Flatson and New Nash Flatson (copyright fatt-dad). I had to add the parenthetical as www.flatson.com happens to be available (oh my, I let the secret out - onto another business plan. . . .)

fatt I-couldn't-resist dad

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## delsbrother

> J. Mark Lane,
> 
> I love you man. You always say what I have though and never had the brain wattage to come up with.
> 
> Thanks man!!
> 
> Tim Saxton


Please don't feed the troll.

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## Ken Sager

Flatiron isn't back. If it doesn't say Montana somewhere on the label it just isn't a Flatiron. No offense intended to any Nashville Flatiron owners. I'm sure they're fine instruments. Gibson BOUGHT the name Flatiron. It didn't do anything to improve them.

You decide whether my statement, or Joe's for that matter, are Fact or Opinion.

Regardless, I love you all.

Ken

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## John Ritchhart

I have both kinds and both are great. What's in a name? A Rose by any other name would be a treat. Frankly, I wish both the prosecution and the defense would rest. "I was married by a judge. I should have asked for a jury." - G. Marx

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## jim_n_virginia

What started out as a promising thread about a great mandolin has turned once again into a Gibson bash. I just don't get it, if you want one buy one and if you don't then don't buy one, it's that simple.

But to go on and on about company politics.... GEEZ!

I for one thank you John for sending the pics in. Nice looking mando.

The mandolin looks very light and responsive and I bet is sweet sounding.

One question I would like to ask anyone though is WHY... can we loudly proclaim to the world that we live in the GREATEST country in the world but be thought of as arrogant for thinking you work for the greatest company in the world?

I don't think there is anything wrong with being proud of who you work for.

You know, most of the mandolin players I meet are pretty nice fellas. Thank God for that!

----------

> But to go on and on about company politics.... GEEZ!


We're talking about the product!

It is not the best mandolin made as Vest goes on and on and on about. You can easily find a better looking/sounding mandolin compared to what you pay for any new Gibson. 

Remember the new price/marketing tack is just 10% off retail! ouch!

----------

> Joe, Joe, Joe...
> 
> Take it from me, you will NOT get the last word in here, just go pick Big Sandy River, or Crazy Creek, or Wheel Hoss, or Dawg's Bull (advice I think about 80% of the people here could stand to heed...or not).


Please don't feed the troll.

----------


## J. Mark Lane

> We're talking about the product!


Exactly. I was reacting to Joe's overblown comments about the product. It was Joe who imported into this thread the company policies issue, by trying to insinuate that my comments about the product (and about his statements) were based on my anger regarding Gibson policies. They were not, and that effort was a transparent and weak attempt to undermine anything I happen to say -- "Mark, you're just angry at the company, that's all." That's not all. I'm also tired of the silly arrogance regarding the product displayed on this Board by representatives of the company. 

Whatever. If you don't get it, it's not likely that you will. But there is no reason in the world for me to refrain from pointing out the obvious. And as far as that goes, there is no reason in the world for me to not criticize the companies policies, either. So I will keep on doing it. And those of you who feel the need to respond to my very specific and reasoned comments with insults and "lawyer jokes" will only reveal your own weaknesses. I certainly have the last laugh in that regard.

Thanks.

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## John Ritchhart

Fine, you win. Can we move on now?

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## Chadah77

I agree.

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## PCypert

Anyone remember the new mandolin....

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## Nathan Sanders

The pictures of the new Flatiron were neat to see, but how does it sound?

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## Nolan

Was Flatiron forced to sell the name "Flatiron" to Gibson? #Did they hold their arm behind their back and make them say uncle? #Maybe they did, I don't know... but it would seem that one of the "Small, independent luthiers" decided he/she liked to make money too... just like Gibson!

I think Gibson did improve the Flatiron line when they changed the neck joint back to the compound dovetail and brought them back in-line with what the Loars were built like.
I do think the idea of an X-braced mandolin though....

Thanks for the pics guys, looks great.

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## Keith Erickson

Oh boy it's Gibson bashing again....

...wait a minute, I need to start putting more nickels in my Oldwave fund jar. 

I'm almost there.

Keep the posts coming

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## Tom Smart

> One question I would like to ask anyone though is WHY... can we louding proclaim to the world that we live in the GREATEST country in the world but be thought of as arrogant for thinking you work for the greatest company in the world?


I've been trying to avoid the temptation of adding something, but since you asked, and asked "anyone"...

I think loudly proclaiming your superiority in anything is boorish, disrespectful, juvenile and, yes, arrogant.

People that loudly proclaim the USA to be the greatest country in the world aren't doing the country any favors in terms of its image and respect around the world.

People that loudly proclaim the superiority of Brunkalla, Moonbeam, BRW or whatever other mandolin they happen to play have been justifiably criticized and even banned from this board in the past. It's obnoxious behavior, and people will only stand for so much.

Why should BigJoe get a free pass where no one else does? He's making his company--and more sadly, himself--look very bad.

----------


## Keith Erickson

> Why should BigJoe get a free pass where no one else does? He's making his company--and more sadly, himself--look very bad.


Tom,

Good morning to you. #I've seen a lot on this board in the year that I've been here. #I can honestly say that BigJoe has never given a free pass as long as I have been here. #Almost every time he posts, he has been followed by some sort of negative comment or flame by others.

As a matter of fact, I wonder why BigJoe comes to this board to put up with all of the sniper-shot's he's had to deal with.

I don't know how long you've been posting on this board, but I will tell you that if you slam Gibson, you are thought of as a hero and will be praised.

I know of one particular individual who will probably cridge reading this post and will flame me for defending Gibson just existing.

I don't understand the utter hatred that people have. #It's something that I don't understand and will never understand from now until eternity.

To each his/her own. #We all have our preferences in what we play.

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## futrconslr

Damn arrogant Americans......Where did I park my SUV. Oh yeah, do any of you brainiac science types know how I can melt down my recycle bin in order to squeeze out the petroleum by-products to convert to a gallon of gas?

Just curious.

AMERICA RULES!

LOL

----------


## Nathan Sanders

So we shouldn't brag on the USA being the greatest place to live? We shouldn't brag on our choice of mandolin? One of the beauties of this country is the freedom to air one's opinion. But let's not get political.

I've never understood the Gibson-bashing that happens in this forum. Is it just because they are a huge corporation which has existed for a long time? Granted, some of their business practices are unclear at times, but they still make a great mandolin, if not the greatest (oops, that sounded like an opinion). Maybe we need to start another thread and let J. Mark and anyone else spell out specifically the reasons for their apparent hatred of all things Gibson.

Meanwhile, let's get back to the Flatiron. How about a review?

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## Nick Triesch

Remember in the movie Jurassic Park when the lawyer was hiding in the outhouse and the T-Rex yelled and the walls fell down and then Rex ate the lawyer? Just kidding Mark but dang, these are just mandolins! Holy smokes! I'm mad at Gibson also but I'm sure not going to sell "23" Snakehead. Have you checked out the buliders list? There are a ton of those guys out there. Nick :Smile:

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## Keith Erickson

> Maybe we need to start another thread and let J. Mark and anyone else spell out specifically the reasons for their apparent hatred of all things Gibson.


That would be nice if we saw substance in these posts but I'm afraid that a thread like this would degenerate into a diatribe of hate-spewing goofy conspiracy theories.

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## Nathan Sanders

Good point Keith! Besides we get enough of the hate-spewing goofy conspiracy theory type of hogwash as it is, just about any time Gibson is mentioned. Thanks!

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## Tom Smart

> So we shouldn't brag on the USA being the greatest place to live? We shouldn't brag on our choice of mandolin? One of the beauties of this country is the freedom to air one's opinion.


I agree. Brag all you want; it's a free country. Joe can brag all he wants too. Just don't be too surprised if all that bragging makes some people want to puke.

By the way, my old Gibson A-1 is the finest mandolin ever made, and I can pick circles around Chris Thile. Sure, there are other good mandolins out there, and Thile can pick pretty good, but I challenge anyone to prove that my mandolin and my picking are not the best in the world.

USA! USA!

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## Tim

> So we shouldn't brag on the USA being the greatest place to live? We shouldn't brag on our choice of mandolin? One of the beauties of this country is the freedom to air one's opinion. But let's not get political.


No one said you shouldn't do that, just that if you do you run the risk of coming across as arrogant...

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## fatt-dad

O.K., I'll weigh in yet again. . . .

The fifth post on page 4 is the start of the emotion in this thread. Irrespective of what Gibson invented (and much to their credit), they lost sight of the mark up-and-until they acquired Flatiron. Some may say that Flatiron may not have been building the "best" mandolin either, but it was better than what Gibson was doing (i.e., Flatiron was not using a conventional dovetail neck joint). What I find intolerable is the endless claims of their superiority. I liken boasting to all of the other deadly sins. As such from the boast comes the ire. It's the way it goes on these threads. The question is as a community, should we just let the boast float by or should we call it what it is? I think we've all got it - nobody is ever going to tell Gibson that thay have a better mandolin - fine! I try my best to let it float by, other's call it as they see it, but to just figure that it should remain the #### on the table (i.e., that nobody will say anything about it) is crazy.

f-d

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## Ken Sager

Taste, timing, and tone. It is revealed in posts as much as in mandolin playing. Declaring the greatness of ones mandolins, country, shoes, whatever, over others shows questionable taste, an arrogant tone, and usually poor timing.

I'm as guilty of poor taste, nasty tone, and bad timing as anybody on this board. I'm usually not boastful, though, having little to boast about.

I still love you all,
Ken

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## Spruce

_"Besides we get enough of the hate-spewing goofy conspiracy theory type of hogwash as it is, just about any time Gibson is mentioned."_

This isn't about Gibson Bashing...
It's about Shill Bashing....

So, here goes....

_"I don't put your product down, don't put mine down."_

_Please_ feel free to bust my chops (and my product) if I come on this board and make a statement like this:

"_Orcas Island Tonewoods cuts the best tonewoods ever milled. #Period. #That is not arrogance. #It is a fact. #There are other really great tonewoods and some really great sawyers, but they do not cut better wood by any means."_

Or how about this imaginary post last January from John Monteleone:

_"The GA is as good as any other ever made. #Period. #That is not arrogance. #It is a fact. #There are other really great mandolins and some really great builders, but they do not build a better one by any means."_

I always thought John had a lot more class than that and would let the instrument speak for itself...
_But wait! #It's imaginary!_

Bottom line?

There's a _lot_ of shilling going on around here, and it's been going on for a long long time...

From the Big Boys on down to the Moonbeams....

Hell, I saw a show on the tube the other day about a car company that has completely forsaken traditional advertising in order to concentrate on word-of-mouth type advertising, including well-placed posts on groups like this one _from paid employees_...

It's called micro-targeting...
And it's _very_ effective....

And it happens to be banned on _all_ the other boards I tend to frequent, sometimes unfortunately to the extreme as in the case of the Musical Instrument Maker's Forum, who will _immediately_ remove any post that even hints of a commercial endorsement or link to a website that is commercial.

This policy is much to their detriment, IMO, creating an atmosphere of Big Brother-ism. #
It also makes the site much less effective in terms of networking and opinion sharing... 
But hey, that's their call....

That's what I like about this site.
You can recommend (or diss) mandolin makers, case suppliers, string makers, tonewood cutters, etc. etc. to your heart's content.

So-ooo, we rely on self-regulation, which is the point of this post.

The point?

Can we keep the self-hype and Mando-Jingoism in the IBMA booth where it belongs?

If not, expect a reaction.
(Oh right. #That's called "Gibson Bashing") #

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## Tom Smart

Well said, Bruce.

As fatt-dad hinted, Pride/Vanity is the first of the seven deadly sins, and the one which gives rise to all the other deadly sins.

I was only kidding about me being the best. Ken Sager can kick my butt all the way around the block on mandolin, but he's way too humble to brag about it.

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## Nathan Sanders

A final thought...

As the old saying goes, "If you can do it, it ain't bragging."

I guess I'll wait for a Flatiron review until the official unveiling and the introduction of the full line.

See you guys on another thread.

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## JimW

I really don't think what Big Joe is doing is any different than say "One of the Busch's touting their Budweiser brand of beer saying it tastes best, or say, one of the Ford's proclaiming their trucks are the best built." Let us not forget, Gibson *isn't* an individual, it's a for profit corporation. Like it or not, Big Joe is very confident in his product and I wouldn't buy their product unless they (employees and corporate suits) thought they were building the best product of it's kind on the market.

The facts as I know them are Gibson actually invented the F5 style of mandolin that probably over 75% of the current mandolins sold today mimic. Also, you can bet the owners of Flatiron were handsomely paid for their company, and I don't think anyone held a gun to their heads and made them sell to Gibson in the first place. I also believe that if you purchase an F5 style mandolin, you can thank Gibson for designing and perfecting what most of us consider the epitome of mandolins. If you buy an F5 style mandolin, it's either a Gibson, or a Gibson knockoff.

I really don't understand the few that constantly bash Gibson. It never fails, every post dealing with Gibson will turn into a free-for-all. I respect everyone's opinion, but my god, as Charlie D. and Big Joe have repeatedly stated, no one is making you purchase a Gibson instrument. 

It really must be consoling to Gibson to see everyone taking pot shots at them because if they weren't at the top of the hierarchy chain, no one would really care nor would all this bashing take place. It's like the subdominant dog in a pack always looking for a weakness to exploit to overtake the alpha dog.

Jim 
(And no, I don't currently own a Gibson)

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## delsbrother

> "_Orcas Island Tonewoods cuts the best tonewoods ever milled. #Period. #That is not arrogance. #It is a fact. #There are other really great tonewoods and some really great sawyers, but they do not cut better wood by any means."_


But Bruce, if you read that carefully, it's true. Sure, you come across as arrogant, but maybe that's just your personality.  In any event, it's still true - or at least I cannot prove it is false. Any "test" to prove the "value" of your woodcutting could be disputed by someone (you).. I wouldn't fault you because you were proud of what you do. The "slack" I cut Joe is based on this, though he is as guilty of trolling here as others are (I just called JML out because he's being really idiotic about it). Considering the long history of Gibson advertising claims, I'm surprised there's so much furor over Big Joe's posts. 

BTW it's obvious the "shilling" going on is happening from both sides - there are plenty of independent luthiers and dealers on this board. But like you, I usually appreciate this for what it is - an opportunity to share information about different mandolins. I trust myself to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I'm not a "shill" by any means. I'm just a frustrated reader of the boards. Gibson-bashing may be "right" in many of your minds, but at least for me it is really, really really boring. Perhaps we could have a different room in MC where Joe and JML could just keep going around and around the same issue. At least that way _neither_ of their Gibson-related posts would infect others.

BTW, I like the new oval Flatiron... It looks kinda Pomeroyian to me.. LOL

Darrell (Only a Kent is Good Enough)

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## Ken Sager

One doesn't need to brag when your friends will do it for you, thanks Tom! I do, however, prefer a less violent metaphor than kicking your butt around the block. The 2 or 3 licks I do on the mandolin don't compare at all to the incredible number of tunes you've mastered.

Besides, neither of us play a Flatiron. Maybe we should start a new thread?

I like Bruce's post a lot, too.

Best,
Ken

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## pickinNgrinnin

Ken - didn't I see you playing at the last Mandobrunch? If that was you, I'd say you know a bit more than 2 or 3 licks!

I'd like to play 2 or 3 licks like that

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## Ken Sager

That was a great day, wasn't it? Mass Street had a couple nice Flatirons, if I recall correctly (trying to keep this thread on topic) and it was a geniuine delight to play with Ted Eschliman (Mandohack) and Peter Mix. The jam we had on the patio with Peter's Domino tenor guitar was too much fun.

More to the topic, I'd love to see Flatirons reintroduced to the world, but without the hot air about Gibson's greatness. Let the mandolins speak for themselves. I'd love to find out they really are better than what came out of Montana. 

The proof shall be in the pudding, as they say.

By the way, I'm writing a book of hot licks. It's three pages, one for each lick.

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## fatt-dad

I'd like to know more about each of the New Nash Flatson specifications and how they compare to the Nash Gibsons. There has to be some distinction in appointments, maybe hand work, maybe wood selction, etc. There is clearly a distinction in the bracing (I mean if they have x-bracing in their f-hole models). I'd also be interested in how their pricing (even at retail) looks and whether they will be available through their custom shop, i.e., if somebody wants a unique finish.

This is the interesting mando-geek stuff in my opinion.

fatt I-love-my-flatirons dad

f-d

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## mrbook

I don't think anyone compares new Washburn instruments to the ones made 100 years ago, even though the company tried to make the connection. I won't compare my Harmony instruments from the 60s to the Chinese ones around today (although I was always embarassed by my plastic banjo, even though it was the Roy Smeck "professional" model). This is a new line of instruments made by Gibson with the Flatiron name, but with no connection to the old line that I can see other than that name. Like them or don't like on their own terms, if you are lucky enough to be near a place to see and play one.

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## danb

> The facts as I know them are Gibson actually invented the F5 style of mandolin that probably over 75% of the current mandolins sold today mimic.


That's true enough, but since 1925 or so..

-the mandolin waned in popularity, Lloyd Loar left Gibson to make electric instruments at ViVi-Tone
-gibson shifted focus to tenor banjos, then ukes, then guitars, following the market
-many guitar models introduced, including solid-body electrics that became a staple earner for them
-rock 'n roll endorsers (continuing today) and Gibson guitars in every local shop. Mandolins? less so!

They certainly lost their way "mandolin-wise" in the 60s/70s.. and were bought out by Henry in the not-too-distant past when the company hit a low ebb. They have had a several shop managers calling the shots on mandolin production.. (Carlson, Weber, others..), moved production multiple times to new places with new tooling under new management.. There isn't quite the magic thread to the past there that some think.. at the very least it's taken an indirect route.

I feel Charlie's efforts at Gibson have been a wonderful tribute to the vintage Gibsons. He *really* gets it (lives it!). Lots of people I met there do (including Big Joe, Danny Roberts, other folks).. there is passion all around you, a lot of pride and very nice instruments.

If you think about it, what then does "Gibson" mean on the peghead? About the same thing that "Flatiron" means on the new Flatirons? Maybe more.. there is a loving tribute there. Modern Gibson F5s are quite literally (vintage) Gibson copies too! The value in the brand is what the current crop of guys are putting into it now.

I think a lot of folks here rebell against "advertising speak", I shake my head when I see hyperbole like Joe has been posting.. not because it's true or not, just because it seems to assume that everyone here is that easy to manipulate. It's a natural response to mock boastfulness and hyperbole. I think we all see Joe as a company representative, and sort of expect him to be respectful, and let the mandolins do the talking.

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## David M.

Dang. #Just now reading this thread. #I tell you WHAT, if this flatty sounds as good as the 2000 flatty I just bought, then it'll speak for itself w/out all this other hot air.

Dang.

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## Big Joe

Let me try to clear something up. #I have stated no one makes a better mandolin. #I believe that. #Is that a put down to anyone else's work? #I certainly hope not. #I did not say "Gibson is the BEST". #Just that no one makes a better mandolin. #If you take all the posts I have written you will see I have supported many, many builders and have encouraged them and the sale of their product at every opportunity. #I have never put anothers work down or said it was inferior in any way. #It may be different, but that is not always bad. #It increases choices and that is always good. #I have always tried to encourage others to become more inventive and set themselves apart from what everyone else is doing. #I am personal friends with many of the builders and it is always a joy to be around them. #The pooled knowledge on this forum is greater than most of your realize. #We don't all agree on technique or methodology or theory, but we are all interested in what the others are doing. #It is the love of the instrument that drives all of us. #There is not enough money in it to think there is any chance of riches for anyone. #We are all hoping to make a living doing what we love. #

Now, with that being said, if I felt there was anyone making a better mandolin, I would not want to work where I do. #I have voted with my pocketbook just like the rest of the mandolin owning public. #I may have my personal preferences, as do all of you. #However, I am not going to back down from my personal belief about our product. #Why would I want to own a product I felt was inferior in any way? #Just like most of you, the mandolin you spent your money on is the best one to you in that price point at that time. #I hope you believe that. #That is human nature.

I hope the rhetoric can ease off a bit. #This thread was about Flatiron. #It is a Gibson product. #It is not the same as the Monana product in any way. #What will it be? #That is still being determined. #A lot of work is going on to see what we can do to provide an excellent product at a price point that is affordable. #That is not as easy as many seem to think. #We will not sacrifice quality just to make a product. #It may be sparsely decorated but it will be well build and functional and sound good or we don't want to build it. #It will have its own voice. #We don't need to replicate what we are already doing with a new name. #It should be different from the Gibson line to offer more tones and looks. #That is what we are working on. #The jury is out on what the result will be. #You will have opportunity to vote on that issue in time.

If you wish to think of me as arrogant or shilling or advertising that is your right. #I really don't mind. #The truth is I truly believe what I say and that is nothing to apolagize for. #If I say I like someone's work you can believe I do. #If I say someone is a great picker, I really mean it. #I won't speak what I don't believe. #For that I do not apolagize. That is the case whether I am talking about Gibson products or anyone else's. #With this in mind, understand I will always say no one builds a better mandolin until I think they do. #Then I will correct the situation here or find my way elsewhere. #That's where I am. #Thank you.

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## Ken Sager

No one is arguing with whether you believe that, Joe. One thing that is disputable (arguable, if you will) is the factual claim you made that no one makes a better mandolin. You've stated opinions as facts. It is a fact that your opinion is as stated above. That does not make your opinions facts.

You also state what you believe, but beliefs are not facts. I believe I'll have a tuna sandwich for lunch, and I believe that no one makes a better tuna sandwich than I do. Would I eat it if I didn't believe that? No, I would not. Does that make it a fact?

No.

I've said it above, and it bears repeating. When the mandolins come out players will judge whether they will be worth their money. The mandolins will speak for themselves, and the players will state their opinions (not facts) on their comparative quality.

Humbly, 
Ken

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## Scott Tichenor

> If you wish to think of me as arrogant or shilling or advertising that is your right. I really don't mind.


Message understood, loud and clear. Please disregard the email I sent you earlier this afternoon as it appears I simply wasted my time.

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## pickinpox

> Everyone who had anything to do with the creation of the modern mandolin is dead.


So there you have it folks....mandolin innovation is hazardous to one's health

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## Ted Eschliman

I'm laughing so hard, milk is coming out of my nose...

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## danb

Sometimes it just feels like we're talking in the living room and suddenly a beer commercial walks through

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## johnsmusic

Gee, wonder why John got this new Flatiron and hasn't commented on it...... Well, actually I have, but to the few people who actually cared about my opinion and were not spending their time or fingertips bashing Gibson or Big Joe. 
 For the record, Big Joe followed through on everything that he promised me by the time we both agreed upon. Installing the Baggs pickup and shipping it so that I could use it by the weekend. The mandolin is fine, action is good, sounds great, finish work is fine. It is not quite as plain as my bad photos would lead you to believe. The front and sound hole are bound in tortoise. The back and sides are very nicely figured, which would show up more if it had been stained with a color intead of being blonde. BTW the pickup is great. 
 I own a music shop, do not carry Gibson, probably never will, and don't really care for their policies. But I know that it has been a positive experience to deal with Joe. 
               that's all from me. John

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## Frank Russell

Used to be I would check in at the Cafe to learn about mandolins. Now I just enjoy the bitter, venomous arguing and semantics lessons I can get here for free. Things are getting a little ripe. I have a set of dishes at home that are from a company also named Gibson. To show my feelings about Gibson and that horrible old Big Joe, I'm only going to eat on paper plates from now on. That'll teach them. Frank

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## thistle3585

John,
 What is the serial number? I wondered if they would start with a new number, where they left off on the old Flatirons or maybe coincide with the Gibson numbers.

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## Ken Sager

Monkey screams? When will these insults cease?

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## johnsmusic

serial number is: 50824120

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## J. Mark Lane

I just want to say that every single one of you are invited to my house for a beer, on me. Any time. Open invitation. 

We may disagree on things sometimes, and I know I am not very good at keeping the tone where I would like it (civil and friendly). But I know with absolute certainty that each of you would be wonderful guests in my home, and I would love it if you came by (some of you have, it has been fun). I have an entire book of lawyer jokes (I love lawyer jokes). We can all bash me for a while. It would be fun. Maybe we'll pick a tune or two. 

Forgive the perhaps overly sentimental thoughts...but (I am inspired by Ken Sager, whom I admire)...I do love you all.

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## Keith Erickson

San Rafael,

You said it best.

You know I want to add something as well. Each and everyone of us is here because of our love for the mandolin. We also want to see younger players join our ranks here at the cafe.

That being said, we also have younger members that are joining us with questions. Besides worrying about their safety from on-line preditors, we should also be setting a good example of how we treat each other. What kind of message are we sending to the younger members when they read these obvious flames? 

I can tell you if I was young musician starting the mandolin and reading these posts, I would drop it like a hot potato and run as far and as fast in the other direction as possible.

Gibson, Flatiron, Sears, Wallmart.....

...who really cares what we play? 

I think we should be more worried about answering each others questions and spreading the good word on how wonderful the mandolin is.

Yes we all should make recommendations on our preferences. Yes we should love what we play and produce. But that's not an excuse to cut down others for what they play and prefer.

....I don't know what else to add other than for the first time I feel like I've been disappointed here at the Mandolin Cafe.

I'm taking a vacation for a while from here....

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## Ken Sager

Keith,

It's easy to be a little harsh when typing, rather than talking face to face with someone. We all know that, and we all try to police ourselves. It seems this discussion forum is mostly self-righting, and frequented by folks with genuine respect for others. This particular discussion is nothing new. It seems any discussion about Gibson's production, policies, quality, or raises a little ire and prompts Joe to reply with his usual factual claims about no one building a better mandolin, which raises a little more ire. Eventually everybody comes around, calms down, says sorry, and continues on.

Enjoy your break, but please note that no one is cutting down others for what they play and prefer. We've already established that we all love each other. You'll be missed, but life goes on. We're all just trying to be happy. When we wake up and quit trying we might actually find that we already are happy.

Sincerely,
Ken

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## fatt-dad

I would certainly agree with Ken. In any discourse, it's important for folks to air out their thoughts. That's how I see it. There have also been equally spirited discussion on other topics - it's not always Gibson.

f-d

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## Ken Berner

I have a unique idea! How about we (Flatiron owners) gather with our examples of the various generations of this marque, perhaps once each year, to compare notes (ha, ha), tones, finishes, bindings, hardware, etc. Anyone like to start organizing this event?

I have played Flatiron mandolins from Generations I, II and III; looking forward to pickin' some from Generation IV as well. My two are of Generation II (Montana, early '90s) and would welcome you to pick 'em both.

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## fatt-dad

I'll gladly arrainge to host a Flatiron fly-in in Richmond, Virginia. We'd likely have to know that we're having at least 20 folks committed for $10.00 each to secure a place for the event, but I bet I could find one.

f-d

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## jim_n_virginia

> I'll gladly arrainge to host a Flatiron fly-in in Richmond, Virginia. #We'd likely have to know that we're having at least 20 folks committed for $10.00 each to secure a place for the event, but I bet I could find one.
> 
> f-d


If that translates to FREE BEER.... count me in!!!

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## kyblue

I respectfully have to disagree that because someone makes a statement that they are claiming it as fact. It's an opinion, and should be taken as such. Do we really always have to put silly disclaimers like 'IMHO' when we make a statement? If I said 'The Lonesome River Band is the best band in bluegrass' would you really get all upset that I was proclaiming that as a fact written in stone? It's only a fact to me, it's my opinion. I'm entitled to mine, and everyone else is entitled to theirs. I can understand why someone else might think Doyle is better, or Sam, there are plenty of other bands that I can't begin to understand why anyone would even consider are even close.

I have a Rose mandolin, and a Gibson, and I don't think either is the best one out there. I think both may be as good as any out there, I haven't heard any better yet.  But again, it's just my perception and opinion. 

Are both Joe and JML opinionated? Appears so. But, it seems like one is vilified while the other is sanctified, for similar behavior. Makes no sense to me. 

Paula

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## John Ritchhart

No fair bringing common sense into this Paula. The real question is why don't you have a Flatiron like the rest of us? What are you trying to hide? You're conspiring against us aren't you....well, i can't take it anymore, do you hear me? We're all going to be condemned to playing the Microsoft OS-5 with swoosh! Just do it! AAAARRRRGGGHH! # # #OK, I'm just kidding. I feel better now. No, really I do. Hey! let go! Leave me alone! I don't wanna go!

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## kyblue

Hey, actually I failed to mention that I do have a Flatiron Zouk 3MC that I really like. Unfortunately, the scale length is a bit long for me, so I've commissioned Chris Baird to bill me an OM with a shorter scale, which I hope to like even better!!! 

Paula

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## Scott Tichenor

Paula, nothing against your statement but it's too bad we don't share email inboxes so you could see the grief I've taken over the past two years on the subject of this conversation. There aren't just a few people angry about this. There are a lot of people angry. It's both sides, and both think I have the answer.

Ongoing conversations often come with a limit on the behavior the community will tolerate. When the noise becomes too strong, people speak up and out, and loudly so at times. Some of this is ultimately good and some of it is not. Everyone has their own opinion and what they will tolerate. It's a wide-ranging community with a lot of different opinions and backgrounds. 

Am I the only one that can see that this board gets simultaneously accused of being the protector of Gibson and an outright basher/enemy at the same time within the same threads? No one ever points that out because they're too blind to see past their own opinion.

Yesterday I attempted to calm a few things privately behind the scenes instead of doing so publically. I asked for help from several key players. The result? A few private "I agree, I'll help" responses. One party publically apologized. The other thumbed his nose at me. Fine. The bottom line, like for you Paula, is that I'm not satisfied right now and am doing some evaluating on how to make this subject matter a bit more palatable for the masses. Right now it leaves an extremely sour taste in my mouth.

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## John Ritchhart

Scott, most of us think you're doing a great job with this board. Maybe we could do like that comedian suggests and be made to wear a sign if we say something really offensive or stupid, in order to warn people. So when you post there's a sign that is attached to your signature that says, "Danger! Potentially Stupid Comments Possible". Maybe add a frowny face with a dunce cap on it. It could be time limited like thirty posts or something before the sign is pulled or worked off by good behavior. You would be the sole judge of who deserves the recognition. That would cut the emails down to just one. From the guy who got it.

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## Ken Sager

> I have no problem believing the mandolins we make today are the best on the planet. #I have played the best available and I am quite capable of telling the good ones from the rest. #The MM and DMM are as good as any other ever made. #Period. #That is not arrogance. #It is a fact. #


Paula,

Here's a quote of the factual claim I mentioned. It begins with a belief statement but goes far past stating an opinion.

One can't say "I believe" and "It is a fact" when stating what is plainly an opinion. 

I hope this helps clear things up a bit.

Best,
Ken

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## good_ol_al_61

Scott:

You run a great place here...uhh...no, THE BEST place!

That is my opinion.  

I thank you for your last post. I can really see that you are in a no win situation. Any decision that you take will offend someone. I know that you will not try to please everyone. You know that is impossible. Simply do what is right in your heart and everyone else will just have to live with it.

You have done a fantastic job so far and I am confident that you will do what is best for the board regardless of who it offends.

My very best and sincere wishes are with you.

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## kyblue

Scott, 

One thing I'm sure we can all agree on is that this thread has left a sour taste in almost everyone's mouth. Too bad. But, I guess if we can take anything positive out of this is that everyone is passionate about mandolins. 

Ken, I agree that statement was a bit over the top. I'm a bit (this is definitely an opinion on my part and you'd get a lot of argument from people who know me well about whether 'bit' is an appropriate adjective!) opinionated myself so I tend to cut people a lot of slack with expressing themselves.

Paula

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## Tim

For me, it is simple. #If someone is making a statement of comparison/evaluation they are giving an opinion whether they say it is a "fact" or not. #The reality is that opinions/beliefs are facts that have a range of the outer layer of skin. #That is, for my decision making beliefs and opinions are just as important as facts I just can't expect you to reach the same conclusion/decision.

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## Ken Sager

> I'm a bit (this is definitely an opinion on my part and you'd get a lot of argument from people who know me well about whether 'bit' is an appropriate adjective!) opinionated myself so I tend to cut people a lot of slack with expressing themselves.
> 
> Paula


Paula,

We're all a bit opinionated, and no, most expressions don't need to be prefaced with "In my opinion..." We all know I could be more generous with folks and cut more slack, I try, but sometimes statements of facts need to be shown that they are really opinions. 

Joe offers fantastic advice and valuable information to this board regularly. We should all be as kind as Joe. If I have offended Joe I apologize.

Sincerely,
Ken

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## Moose

Scott: I absolutely agree with your above post! - For me..., please do whatever you deem necessary - just don't shut the CAFE down. I really thought - and hoped - the thing would just "rol-over-and-die". It seems to for a 'couple 'a daze - I, personaly, have stopped scanning/lurking/surfing several of the "other" BG/music/personalities/mando& BG related FORUMS due to exactly what is happening here! - An "outsider" scanning this "hoop-la" surely would think ALL BG folks(i.e. mando-related).., are VERY opinionated, unsophisticated...,narrow-mined, "red-neckers" of the worse kind!##?? - The CAFE - for me - is, and continues to be, the "bright-spot" of this "retired"!?#, burnt-out, cynical 'ol mando pickers day. I'm outta' here ; my apologies for "venting"....## - Again, thanks for this FORUM - Let's put the "class" back.... Moose.

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## Scott Tichenor

First, I'm not looking for sympathy. I point out obvious things I view because I think many of have never had the pleasure of viewing this resource from my vantage point. I'd like many of you to take an objective look at this from both sides for a change instead of your own view. There are two very opposing views here. You may think there are simple cut and dried answers to all of this issues. There aren't. "Just tell so-and-so to shut up and everything will be alright" isn't an appropriate fix. I do wish some of you who are so insistent on being critical of discussions to ask yourself what you're doing to either assist in the matter, or ask if you're part of the problem. And there is a difference between flaming someone and simply complaining or having a spirited discussion (if handled appropriately), and some of you clearly need to get a handle on that. We aren't going to stop praising or complaining about Gibson from this point out, but we should do so in an appropriate fashion.

A bigger point is that individuals making statements--particularly when there's a financial component (sorry business owners, your hat has to stay on when you walk through the door), and doubly so when representing a business--should be very careful about what is said. Intent and belief in one's statements are fine, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with or like it, and they have a right to say so. I swallow a lot of statements from a number of people I don't agree with and ignore most of it. People have been hurt in this matter and relationships have been strained at best, and permanently ruined at worse. When problems crop up and it starts to become an overwhelming time issue for me personally is when the straw breaks the camel's back.

I don't run this resource by myself, and nor do Dan and Ted. They assist, and do a fine job, and I'm thankful for their assistance. Like myself, they aren't always perfect, but they have the best intentions of the community in mind.

From time to time I ask for people who've chosen to make themselves major players in this game we play for assistance in maintaining the health of the community. This is a critical compoment. When backs get visibly turned to that request, trust me, from that point forward I will pay very close attention.

This board isn't about me, and shouldn't be about any one individual in particular. Whether we can move on to soemthing better only time will tell. How sad that this has become nothing more than a shrill outlet for emotions when it should have been about the joy some people were finding in a new model and a place to ask legitimate questions.

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## Tom Smart

Opinion or fact, Joe has an obvious conflict of interest when he comes onto a public board repeatedly to tout his own product as "the best on the planet, period, that's a fact."

If I were to repeatedly post along those lines about my F5 mandolin, I think the builder of my mando would be very embarrassed by my behavior and would possibly even suffer a loss of business. No one would be defending me.

HOWEVER, Bruce and a couple of others have hinted at something that has changed my thinking about this topic a bit.

It's entirely possible that Joe's manager is pressuring him to actively push Gibson mandos on this board. If that's the case, he's not really being a jerk; he's just doing his job. We've all done things for our employers that we wished we didn't have to do. Maybe that's what's happening here.

If so, Joe, I apologize for any grief I've given you. I'll stand by my statement that this behavior is making Gibson look bad...but I'm not sure it's fair to place the blame on you personally. I hope your manager is reading this thread.

TS

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## Scott Tichenor

Sorry, Tom. I'm not buying that one. People don't get hounded off the board by us, they hound themselves into submission. Everyone that posts here is ultimately responsible for their own behavior and ultimately the community will hold them to that if they act irresponsibly or outside of the guidelines. If golfguy wants to be a moderator on other boards where the moderators openly criticize people's political beliefs that's fine with me. Just don't do it here.

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## Tom Smart

You're right, Scott. I will edit my post accordingly. Thanks for running the only board I've ever seen where sanity truly prevails.

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## Scott Tichenor

No need to edit anything for me. It's just that of late there's been a rife of incorrect statements about board policy, status of someone that's disappeared, etc., and I'm tired of reading it. Some people can't handle the heat their own comments create. Solution? Blame us. That way you don't have to take responsibility for your own actions, or so one might think.

Some thrive on the discord they create. But ultimately the community is going to attempt to correct that. When it happens it isn't always pretty. We lose members. Some come back, some never return. New people show up. This is just one conversation in thousands out here and there's plenty of other good things to read. The only consistent for me is that some people are willing to be a healthy part of this, and some choose their own path.

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## Tom Smart

> No need to edit anything for me.


Too late. I edited it not "for you" but because you made a good point that I agree with. I often say things before I've thought it all through. I'm sure no one else ever does that....

I had a personal goal of keeping my average posts below one per day. I'm guessing I've just blown it.

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## Ted Eschliman

> I don't run this resource by myself, and nor do Dan and Ted. They assist, and do a fine job, and I'm thankful for their assistance. Like myself, they aren't always perfect...


Wuh??? 
I'm _not_ perfect? You mean my wife's been right all along?

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## Scott Tichenor

Uh, Ted. Our wives are _always_  right, whether they are or not. You know the drill.

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## John Rosett

whew... and to think that i scrolled through this whole thing hoping to see a photo of the A oval hole.....

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## JimRichter

Wives are always right, but my wife is _better_ than any wife out there today. #And, I don't say that just because she's my wife! I don't brag on my wife cause I'm married to her; I married her because I think she's better than any out there.

(I can hear the groans and see the tomatoes being tossed at me as I type)

Jim

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## Big Joe

Ken...no apology needed. I always value your input.

Tom...no one encourages me to post on the cafe nor do they care if I do nor don't. My presence here if really because I am an avid fan of the mandolin. The fact I work for Gibson is just coincidence. I do understand many see me as a representative of the company and will view anything I say in that context. I may forget from time to time that I am viewed as such. I have no financial interest in any product bought or sold on the cafe on a personal basis. 

Scott...I have e-mailed you personally. I do apologize if my rhetoric was over the top. It was not intended to be such. I still believe no one make a better mandolin but I do not want to say Gibson is the best. There are lots of good ones out there and I have never failed to say so. From a personal standpoint I do think my own DMM is the finest mandolin made. For what it cost I'd better think that!  . 

To all...I am first and foremost a mandolin addict. Just like you. My passions are as deep as yours. I love all kinds of mandolins and if I had an endless budget I would have one from a good number of the builders on this cafe. However, I am a working stiff like most of you. I bought what I thought was the best for me. I don't have any money left for others at the current time  . Maybe someday. However, as hard as I try not to get caught up in the nonsense that occasionally goes on here, I am only human and cannot seem to stay away when I should. I enjoy being on the cafe and the interplay between wonderful people who have the same love. I would be nearly as passionate with Swiss watches and dachshunds (especially long hairs), but I don't know of any of those sights. I try to word my response carefully. I succeed at times and don't at others. It's called being human. I want to bring some insight many might never have because of my position, yet my position is not why I am here. I do not try to sell mandolins on the cafe. I would not get one more cent if I did. I will try to be more careful in the future about how I phrase things. On the other hand, no matter what I say or how I say it some are always going to be upset because I work for Gibson. That is part of what I live with and I understand that. It may not be valid, but it is the way things are and I'm a big boy and can handle that.

Now, can we talk about Flatiron or baseball or politics or religion or something less volitile?  .

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## Dave Schimming

Joe - Keep posting; I like the looks of the new Flatiron mando; regarding baseball the nearest pro team to me (Royals) not very good; probably best to pass on politics & religion in these days and times (although perhaps less controversial than discussing Gibson?).

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## thistle3585

Joe, when will more info be available on the Flatiron line? Whats going to be available? Also, is Gibson going to introduce other instruments using the Flatiron name?

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## Big Joe

We are just a bit above the curve on the Flatiron introduction. We are working dilligently to get the product ready for release. We have a number of pieces we are hoping to get on the market very soon. I will be happy to post pictures or give more information when I can. Please understand I just don't have definitive word on the exact details yet. I don't anticipate it will be long but anything I say till then will be less than informative. Thank you.

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## fatt-dad

In summary - outstanding questions:

-Fretboard width at the nut.
-Neck joint position for f and a models, oval and f-hole
-Photos!
-Comparisons between the Flatiron and the Gibson lineup (i.e., appointments, structure, finish, tonewood, etc.)

On a separate note, I'd like to personally thank the moderators and Scott for thier hard work, recognizing full well that in any community there are diverging opinions and emotions. If there is any time that I can help, I will. First though, I must complete my 12 step program for my name is fatt-dad and I'm a recovering annoyance - ha.

fatt day-3-without-cigars dad

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## PCypert

This thread reminds me of that line in Alice's Restaraunt where he says, "Remember Alice, this is a song about Alice" like seven minutes into the song. 

Paul

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## Moose

Hey fatt-dad!: "keep com'n back"!

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## PaulD

Big Joe said: 


> no one encourages me to post on the cafe nor do they care if I do nor don't


 and 


> I want to bring some insight many might never have because of my position


I followed this thread because I'm interested in the Flatiron and oval-hole reintroductions... but I started checking in only occasionally when it got ugly. I don't necessarily agree that Gibson builds as good a mandolin as anybody... but I think they're generally top notch instruments (I'm pleased with my F-9). I _do_ care if you post and I appreciate your insight... I'm glad you weigh in on these issues... we don't all have to agree all the time!  

Paul Doubek

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## JEStanek

The photo from page 4 shows the Oval Hole with a neck joining at 14/15 instead of 12 like the F4. Based on one picture we don't know the final product specs or if these mandos were the prototypes being sold... 

I am looking forward to seeing Fatt-no Tobac-Dad's questions answered as well and more tone reviews.

Jamie

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## pickinNgrinnin

I too, followed along with this thread because I'm a Flatiron fan. Somewhere along the way the thread took a weird and perhaps predictable turn. 

A good portion of what I read at the cafe is opinion based. I don't understand why some members become so emotional over the content of a particular thread. I've been here for a long time now. During my stay, I've yet to feel an urge to email Scott and complain about the content of a thread. It's possible a handful of members log the most complaints. If you get to a point where you become that upset, perhaps a break from the cafe would be a good move. If Big Joe wants to puff up on Gibson products, that's fine with me. Consider the source - he works there. 

There is certainly a lot going on in our nation and in the world around us to be upset about. Being upset with Big Joe or Gibson or what Mandolin is the best, shouldn't rank that high in the greand scheme of things.

I'm with FD, I'd like to hear more details on the new Flatirons and I'm happy to see they are back.

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## fatt-dad

Oh, and when we start to hear of rumors that there will be a New Nash Flatson pancake (say that 5 times fast), we will have to move over to the "page 20 and counting pancake" thread. It's only fair.

Moving on to the neck joint matter - yes the photo clearly shows that the neck joint for the NNF (New-Nash-Flatson) is at the 15th fret. From what I gather this is the "right" modern thing to do. If I understand correctly, using a conventionally-sized f-top and the shorter neck joint puts the bridge off center (i.e., towards the tailpiece) and can temper the voice of the instrument. What I don't know is whether this is correct, whether the voice is different, but also beautiful, or whether this is even an issue. Better minds than mine can comment at will. . . . .

fatt got-any-chewing-gum dad

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## Scott Tichenor

> It's possible a handful of members log the most complaints.


This is another common misconception I see posted from time to time and I'm going to challenge this as well because a few people read these, and suddenly everyone thinks it's a fact. Sorry, but this is simply not the case. User complaints don't dictate policy, but it's pretty easy to spot ongoing hot points when you see the same subject matter continually repeated.

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## pickinNgrinnin

Quote (pickinNgrinnin @ Sep. 08 2005, 13:31)
It's possible a handful of members log the most complaints.

[QUOTE]This is another common misconception I see posted from time to time and I'm going to challenge this as well because a few people read these, and suddenly everyone thinks it's a fact. Sorry, but there is simply not the case. 

Well...I did say it was possible. Guess there are more complainers here than I thought. Sigh.

Back to Flatirons

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## Scott Tichenor

Well, I could send you to a place where that's all they do, but I think you and I already had that discussion awhile back.

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## pickinNgrinnin



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## Bluegrass Boy

Boy, I hate to jump into these waters, but what the heck. Not to try to defend Big Joe, but first off, I don't think he says we make the best mandos, just that no one makes a better mando. I haven't re-read all his posts so I could be wrong. However, and I realize it is history, of all the mandolin makers, who besides Gibson can actually claim to have made The Best mandolin? 

And for the record, I would like to go with the following PERMANENT disclaimer (and this is for all aspects of my life):
"Danger! Potentially Stupid Comments Likely"

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## JEStanek

> Moving on to the neck joint matter - yes the photo clearly shows that the neck joint for the NNF (New-Nash-Flatson) is at the 15th fret. From what I gather this is the "right" modern thing to do. If I understand correctly, using a conventionally-sized f-top and the shorter neck joint puts the bridge off center (i.e., towards the tailpiece) and can temper the voice of the instrument. What I don't know is whether this is correct, whether the voice is different, but also beautiful, or whether this is even an issue. Better minds than mine can comment at will. . . . .
> 
> fatt got-any-chewing-gum dad


I was looking through photos of Brentrups, Bairds, Pomeroys, Eastmans, Rigel, MK all seem to be using the 12 fret for oval hole mandos. I would imagine the custom guys could give the 15th fret joint on request for those who go up high. There was a thread on this earlier... can't find it. But if I remember, people in the know thought there would be tonal differences unless bracing patterns were changed for closer to headstock 15 fret/neck oval hole.

Jamie

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## glauber

Isn't the biggest advantage of 15th fret joint a longer neck and more string tension?

g

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## danb

A little perspective:

I think Joe Vest is a very nice open friendly guy, and I've steered a lot of folks his way to buy mandolins. Including one earlier today, about 6 hours after I admonished him for hyperbole on the boards here.

The problem you get on a message board is that certain types of communication don't work. It's very hard to communicate sarcasm.. or irony.. without the absurd use of little smiley faces etc.

It's equally hard to try to prepare an opinion for a large audience and then defend it. That takes a lot of writing skills. I think "Advertising speech" online is just like sitting a bunch of teen-age kids in front of an anti-beer ad. The first thing you'll here is all the making fun of it, poking holes in it.. it's natural.. 

So here's YET ANOTHER take on this perhaps to help the situation.. 

It's best to minimize claims of best of better or superlatives. You'll always get someone who disagrees.. right away.. which means the carefeul reader will think "gee I better try for myself" which is what they should do in the first place...

I think a vendor serves their best interests by not letting competing special interests dissect their product "on air" like this, ie by not making big claims about them.

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## fatt-dad

> Isn't the biggest advantage of 15th fret joint a longer neck and more string tension?
> 
> g


Clearly there's better access up the fretboard, which is quite a draw for the folks that can really navigate up there (I'm still working up the nerve - ha). I'm not sure how the string tension plays into this, not to say it doesn't. It figures that a shorter string tuned to the same note as a longer string would have less tension, which would in turn create less pressure on the bridge, which would (could) in turn affect the volume or "voice" of the instrument. What I continue to wonder is whether the position of the bridge on the top (i.e., in the center v. shifted towards the tailpiece) is much of a factor in the voicing of two otherwise identical sound boxes.

From what I saw of the above photo, the New Nash Flatson is using the 15 fret neck joint, which I guess is the "modern" approach. Other's may build toward the historical 12-fret neck joint, whether it's for nostalgia, tonal value or some other reason, I just don't quite understand (can somebody help here?)

fatt looking-for-another-vice dad

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## John Rosett

i've given alot of thought to the string tension thing lately, due to my left hand problems. my teens gibson A is much more comfortable to play than my collings MT, even though the string length is the same. i think that it has more to do with bridge height and the raised neck joint of the more modern style instruments. it looks like the flatiron oval hole mandos have a raised neck joint and higher bridge. i guess i'll just have to wait and try one.

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## steve V. johnson

I've just read thru enough of this stuff, while waiting for real data on the instruments, to feel as tho I would like to comment.

I really, really, really wish that there were some Answers To Technical and Spec's Questions about these Flatirons by some one. Maybe from someone who might really know ... like... maybe... someone who works with Flatiron/OAI and actually has access to the information?

I'm still waiting for responses to intelligent, caring (yes, and kind and sympathetic &lt;GG&gt;) questions from Truly Interested Persons.  People asked for literal, simple information, measurements that have no hint of "opinion" nor controversy (well, not yet, anyway... &lt;GG&gt;) about them.  I, too, would like to know about the fretboard width at the nut, the reasons (math and construction data, not opinions) for the design of the neck joint. In short, what are these tantalizing New Instruments about, eh?

When I saw that Mr. Big Joe Vest had put up a post, I expected a good, clear reply with actual data, presented in a helpful and clear manner. Um... nope, not yet...  And my experience of Mr. BJVest's posts (the ones that I've read) here is mixed. I'm very glad for any representative of any instrument manufacturer/maker/luthier to be here, and would wish none away. Access to the folks who design 'em, build 'em and even sell 'em is very valuable!  Here's the mixed bit... I wasn't all that surprised that there -wasn't- a concise recitation of tech data to be had, and I wasn't surprised at what it was that he offered. I wasn't surprised at the reactions, either.  *sigh* Old stuff... not helpful.

But I am still excited to know more about the New Flatiron Mandolins, and it seems that there is a lot that is yet to be known.

I love oval-hole mandolins, so I hope we get some Real, Helpful Information from a Well-Informed Source very soon.

Thanks, all,

stv

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## flairbzzt

Like Carl, I'd like to see specs, photos, options, and models that will initially be available. I'd like to see an offset two point myself. Then again I'd like to see them from a lot more makers period. 
 If you want to a)love or hate on company or another, go ahead-whatever your reasons. If you want to love or hate their instruments, I hope you b)play them first, and c)know the difference between a and b. 
 So Joe, about those 2 points??

 And JML, is that invitation for everyone at the same time on the same day? I've got to recover from this back surgery 2 days ago (which makes it hard to sit here and read through all of this....).

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## J. Mark Lane

> #And JML, is that invitation for everyone at the same time on the same day? I've got to recover from this back surgery 2 days ago (which makes it hard to sit here and read through all of this....).


Well, hey, why not? There's a beer store right around the corner, and we can load up the Jeep and all spread out in the yard. The neighbors already think we're nuts here, so what the heck. 

And while I'm venturing back in here....

I think a lot of the modern F4's are, in fact, 15 fret instruments. I know Eastman makes a 12 fret, which looks more like an original Gibson. Others do, I imagine. When I was ordering my Pomeroy F4 (which will be here tomorrow), I spoke to a lot of people about this. I never really got a definitive sounding viewpoint. Don himself has mostly made 15 fret instruments as F4's, and that's what mine will be. I think his view seemed to be sort of like this -- that F mandolins were originally 12 frets, the F5 came along (invented by...oh, never mind &lt;g&gt :Wink: ...and it was 15 frets (I guess), and then the instrument evolved from there. Is there really a reason to build a new F4 with only 12 frets out? I dunno. Luthiers? Somebody must have really tried and compared them. 

Uh, let's see...Flatirons.... I always loved the name. There's even a very cool NYC building named after them. 

Now...where's my beer?

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## fatt-dad

> Like Carl,


Who's that? 

Oh, and on the subject of "Flatiron", I too love the name. It harkens to my days in Boulder where the "Flatirons" of the front range are spectacular! (I guess too in Bozeman as the image of their logo shows a flatiron scene.) Anybody that's seen a show at Red Rocks, knows how cool the geomorphic "flatirons" can look.

fatt a-geologist-named-something-other-than-fatt-dad dad

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## Jim M.

This thread shows the 2 different neck styles on a pair of Brentrups:

Brentrup F4 comparison

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## PaulD

I started to write this awhile ago, but then backed off. There was a recent thread in which the virtues of 12 fret vs. 14 fret vs. 15 fret neck joins on F-4 style instruments were discussed. I wasn't able to find it earlier, and seeing as I actually have had work to do I figured I shouldn't spend a lot of time looking today!  IIRC, some builders and/or players that had experimented said they thought the shorter neck/different bridge position gave the instrument a more "authentic" F-4 sound (I think "tubbier" was used to describe it). That's not to say that elevating the fingerboard and moving the bridge wouldn't be an improvement... it's kinda like the earlier debate about whether one is "Better", "Best", "As good as"... it depends on what you like! I wish I could link y'all to the thread as it sounds like at least a couple people are interested and I've probably got the details wrong. 

Paul Doubek

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## John Rosett

i was looking at the old wave C# for sale on the classifieds (f holes), and the one for sale at elderly (oval hole). the oval hole one has a shorter necklike a vintage gibson, while the f hole one has a longer neck like an F5. i wish that i could have them both to compare for a week or two.

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## Professor PT

The Flatiron news is promising, but I wonder will Gibson make F-4's now? I recall that in the past they( Joe, actually )said that the re-tooling would be too much trouble or something like that...but if they're making oval hole Flatirons, it would seem that an oval hole Gibson should be coming soon.

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> From a personal standpoint I do think my own DMM is the finest mandolin made. #For what it cost I'd better think that!


I bet you would have bought another make if you had to pay the price that the average Joe would have to pay for a new Gib$on. Heck, even I would buy a MM if could buy one at your discount. What do you pay - about 50% of retail? Can the average Joe buy one for less than 10% off retail? Where? 

Thanks

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## BigJoe

First: Flatiron is not quite out of the blocks yet. I would love to give more specific details, but until it is ready for release I cannot. John was fortunate to get the only one built with an oval hole and the only one we are yet allowed to release. It was a 15 fret. I can't imagine doing another 12 fret, but things change in this world. The 15 fret version was chosen for several reasons. First, it places the bridge in a more desireable place to properly drive the top and give the maximum volume and tone (yes...tone is subjective...this is just the theory). Secondly, it is more playable for many modern mandolin players. It allows easier access to the upper registers of the fingerboard. Third, it allows use of a thinner neck when coupled with a truss rod to give more adjustability of action to meet a variety of playing styles. Fourth, it will play more like the F5's that most are used to playing. Fifth, we already build long scales instrument so there is less difficult tooling to make these mandolins. This is very important in keeping cost to a reasonable level.

The rest will be available when the approval for the rest of the line is ready and we can get those to you. Until then, be patient and we will get this done as quickly as possible. I would love to have them ready for you today, but we are not quite ready yet. 

Now GregF5...I do not get a 50% discount on mandolins. It would be nice, but that does not work in the real world. Seconds, I could have bought whatever make I wanted and I did just that. I hope you did the same thing when you bought yours. Why settle for your second in line when you can get your first in line?  .

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> Now GregF5...I do not get a 50% discount on mandolins. #It would be nice, but that does not work in the real world. #Seconds, I could have bought whatever make I wanted and I did just that. #I hope you did the same thing when you bought yours. #Why settle for your second in line when you can get your first in line?  .


Well, let's say that you have convinced me (and others here) and I want to buy a brand new DMM. What would be the lowest out-the-door price could I buy one for? And where?

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## Hal Loflin

Don't do it Joe....gregF5...this is a discussion about Flatirons. Please start a new thread about Gibson DMMs if you are really interested in purchasing one. Or better yet, call Big Joe at OAI and discuss the details.

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## JEStanek

Thanks. smyrnagc.

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## PCypert

We were studying this in communication today. The tendency for some to form an opinion and then filter everything that comes in through that opinion. I deal with it all the time here in Thailand when I meet exPats or Backpackers and they find out I'm a "missionary". In our little community some have very obviously been hurt, burned, or let down by what their ideal of a Gibson mando "should be" or whatever got their panties in a wad. Now any info that comes in they filter the info through those past hurts and junk and only take out what supports their premade judgements. It's a slippery slope and we all fall into it somewhere along the line at times. Too bad to because every mandolin is different. I've heard a F9 that blew the doors off of a Gil. I've heard a F5L that was whooped up on by a Mid Mo. To dismiss all that Gibson has to offer based on a couple of past experiences or perceptions is sad because you could be missing out on something great. I'm not the biggest Gibson fan, but they pretty consistently do what they do very well. I've never heard a mandolin more consistently deliver a Bluegrass sound...unfortunately I've never really wanted that sound...but they do it well. That is as close as an opinion can get to being a fact .
Paul

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## steve V. johnson

Big Joe wrote: " would love to give more specific details, but until it is ready for release I cannot. John was fortunate to get the only one built with an oval hole and the only one we are yet allowed to release. "

Is it classified, illegal or restricted to measure the nut width of that one (or other measurements) and let us know what they are?

Boy getting a direct question answered simple data is tough around here. Well... in certain neighborhoods...

Petitioning the Department of Mandolin Security...

stv

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## Steve Perry

Hooo Boy! #I started this thread almost... what, three weeks ago? #When I hit the enter button I had hoped it wouldn't turn into one of *THOSE* threads! #Oh well... #wrong again.

Anyway... for those looking for exact specs... I don't have 'em. #But I did have the mandolin in hand and what I saw was a blonde F-9... only X-braced... and with Flatiron on the headstock instead of Gibson. #But everything else, tone, feel, playability was identical to the Gibson F-9 hanging on the hook next to it.

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## Professor PT

Tone was the same even though it's an X-braced oval hole? Just curious...

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## Steve Perry

> Tone was the same even though it's an X-braced oval hole? #Just curious...


OK... let me qualify.  # I don't have the greatest ears, but they ain't too bad... the mando I played was F-hole, not oval... and, I spent all of 2 minutes.. maybe 3 with the mando before I had to head out the door.

But, yeah... for the most part, it was pretty much the same as the F-9.

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## PaulD

> Boy getting a direct question answered simple data is tough around here.


Frankly, I'm grateful for the fact that we got a preview of the new Flatiron even if the details are sketchy. I don't get the acoustic music periodicals but I doubt the press release would have given us as much info as Joe has passed along. It will be good to get more details (like nut width), and I'm sure that will come with time. Based on what Joe said about using current production sized necks likely limits the potential neck widths at the nut.

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## Ken Berner

If the tones from the new Flatirons sound very similar (to most folks) to the Gibson "9" mandolins, which name will prevail? I would assume that most mandolin afficianados would rather own an instrument with the long-recognized name of Gibson on it, than Flatiron. I'm thinking that since even the Generation III Flatirons bear little resemblance to those from Montana, there is no mystique attached to Generation IV Flatiron name.

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## glauber

I think the new Flatiron will be a cheaper priced Gibson. Same construction, but fewer accoutrements, ala MidMo. This could be a good thing.

I remember not long ago BigJoe said they had produced a prototype x-braced F (9?). That might have been the prototype for the Flatiron we've been talking about.

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## johnsmusic

"Is it classified, illegal or restricted to measure the nut width of that one (or other measurements) and let us know what they are?"
 # # # # # # # # # # # # #welllll.....actually, it is, I am sworn to double secret plus, so sorry, you'll just have to wait.... #oh, by the way, I measured it at 1"

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## Moose

No harm intended, but I am continualy amazed - and sometimes amused - at the way some of these "threads" take on a life-of-their-own.., and go on..., and on.., and on. AND, these usually wind-up as "Gibson-bashing". Charlie D. I'm certain - got "enough" - now Joe is in the "hot-seat"! - (Incidently, I do not currently own a Gibson product so I have no "axe-to-grind" in any form - or factor) Try it - if ya' don't like it(mando).., don't buy it! - let's go back to "...who's the best mandolin player!?" - Who has/had the "best BG band!? - or better still, what's "better"...flat or radioused FB's... - This is just my .02 and thanks for letting me "vent". Moose.

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## BigJoe

I can't measure what I don't have in hand and until the final specs are approved any specs I give may well be wrong. There is no conspiracy to hide anything from anyone. I don't have anything to reveal. Please be patient (3rd request) and I will be happy to get you what information I can when the information is available to me. 

Now, the differnces from the Gibson line. As it stands today, Gibson is a tone bar braced instrument and the Flatiron are X braced. The Flatiron should be available in both F hole and Oval hole. The Gibson is just F hole. The Flatiron will be at a lower price point. The tone will be different from the current Gibson due to the bracing difference. Obviously the oval hole will sound different from the F hole. All the Flatiron prototypes I've played and heard have been really good sounding instruments. Just different due to the bracing change. That is about all I can tell you at the moment about the product. Thank you.

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## CRowe1118

Hey Joe Vest, #About 3 weeks ago I recieved my brand spankin new Flatiron Performer A which was a warranty replacement for my old (Gibson made) one. #Is this the future or was this one built to be a copy of an older model? ... Jeez this is confusing ... if not then I am looking forward to seeing what you guys have in store. #The mandolin is beautiful and plays great! #It seems to be far superior to the one that I sent to Gibson a few months ago. #I really can't get over how nice the thing looks. #I looked on the Gibson website and the top looks just like one of the A-5L models. #Actually the mandolin looks much like the A-5L's without the pick gard and the gold plated hardware. #Let me know if you can I am curious. #You got one customer out here that is "plum tickled" with his FlatironKeep up the good work.

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## fatt-dad

Welcome CRowe1118!

Is your new flatiron x-braced?

fatt-dad

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## BigJoe

Hey Chris...It is likely not one of the new models. I have not seen it personally, but on replacements it would be the closest thing to the original. I will be happy to find out more for you on Monday. I'm glad you like it!

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## fatt-dad

Wow! So would Chris' warrantee-replacement Flatiron be from the Custom shop? What is the serial number? I wonder whether Gibson made some stelth Flatirons over the last few years, whether for custom order or in the case of Chris for a replacement. Not that it matters, but now's the time to figure it out, 'cause in a few years maybe nobody will have any better ideas.

fatt I-am-just-curious dad

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## stevem

Uh oh. We're in for some trouble with our classification system if someone's been making stealth flatty's this whole time. Post Montana, Post Nashville Death, but Pre-2005 Resurrection Flatirons. I guess we could call them Purgatory Flatirons.

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## BigJoe

We have built Flatirons for warranty replacement as needed and have taken special orders for them. Not many, but a few. Now you have the "Pergatory" model???  .

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## fatt-dad

So, do the Pergatory Nash-Flatson's use the conventional Gibson serial numbering system?

Wow, what a little known, interesting and perhaps useless piece of mandolin history!

f-d

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## flairbzzt

Oh no, more mid-thread controversy? I think we're looking at a 30+ pager here.

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## PCypert

Just think of the thread we'd have it Gibson started selling imports! 

Paul

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## steve V. johnson

"Pergatory Nash-Flatson's"

It took me a long time to stop laughing so I could type...!!!!  Excellent!!!

stv

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## BigJoe

I think we switched to the Nashville Numbering System  .

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