# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  The dreaded black A2Z question. With a possible answer...

## Bfisher690

Hi,

We may be a step closer to solving the Gibson riddle. To start, I am no mandolin expert. I've written about and photographed vintage guitars for years and have a solid knowledge-base there. I mainly love and collect old Gibson and Martin guitars from 1927-1943. My real true love is Gibson acoustics from the 30s. And, man, are they odd. I have a 1932 L-00 12 fret that is translucent brown. Looks black. When you get it in the light, it's brown. My dealer friends have only found one other (same batch). It's all original. Even have a picture of the original owner's daughter learning to play on it! I have an early all mahogany 14 fret L-00 with an elevated fretboard (less rare, but rare) and have had banners with maple sides and a mahogany back- you name it. It was all fair game. I guess my point, and I'm hardly the first to make it, is that Gibson did things on the fly. They were trying to sell instruments and make them move. The idea of the scrap guitar (or mandolin) has been proven time and time again.

So, I recently bought this black 1923 A2 from Charles Johnson. It sounds great. All parts are original. Sounds incredible. Played to DEATH. Plays great. He sold it as an A2 with all the A2Z features (but it has plain white binding around the top. Cool.

Then, I looked at the label this morning (with my glasses finally on). Clear as day (a faded day): A2Z on the label with the serial number 74795. Now I remember hearing of another black a2z from this batch but never saw the label.

The black finish has been authenticated by 3 of the most experienced vintage dealers that I know. Plus, it has the same exact look and character as another black A from the same period that I had. Everything from the headstock to the body phosphoresces the same way- nice glowing green (under blacklight). So, this is the finish it's been wearing since the factory.

Of course, if you look at the arm wear area, you see a pumpkin top under the black (or some sealer coat before the black)! My pal Tom Crandall (TR Guitars) said this is very common (Statman's had this too, I think, but his label said A2). They pull a natural top off the line and paint it black if someone requested one. He's seen a ton of that from this period. I always wonder if they did a natural A2Z and found a wood flaw and painted it black to hide it. That's my guess. 

But, the top binding is white. So, A2Z features and label but white binding- Gibson! Maybe they wouldn't put black/white binding on a black instrument. Did they rebind it at the factory before shooting it black? Was it natural with white binding from the start? 

I guess that's what's so cool about the company and this era. Regardless, it's staying with me. Best snakehead I've heard (isn't that what we all say?!). And, I can now aspire to play as well as Mr. Statman (a guy can dream). Anyway, I'm sure the people with real knowledge will add their thoughts.

Hope everyone is staying safe and keeping themselves sane with music!

Brian

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Eric Platt, 

Jason Stein, 

Matt Bowe, 

pheffernan, 

William Smith

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## Mike Romkey

Interesting. I have a blonde A2Z that is very wonderful. They are marvelous instruments.

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## Bfisher690

Yours looks absolutely stunning.

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## danb

It's a beauty, and I bet it sounds great.

I haven't seen another with orange finish under black, so I scanned through the archive.. at least I can tell you that I don't have another one showing that sort of wear.

Gibson was certainly full of curiosities at this time, there are plenty of instruments with mis-matched features for the label.

That label though- I agree that's clear as day. I think it started out as a Z and had black finish over the orange top. I don't really see any lacquer checking either, so it has the right vibe for that 22-25 range. Could someone have carved up a pumpkin top A2z really fast? could it have been not only over-finished in black, but also re-bound? The latter seems unlikely. Gibson changing their mind and overfinishing it seems more likely.

All that said.. I think "black A2z" has been problematic.. the catalog is pretty clear that the blonde finish is one of the selling points, and indeed I think it would take some nice wood grain to pull that off without exposing flaws or having grain lines "too thirsty" for finish or discolored.

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## Bfisher690

Agreed. I think it was redone at the factory pre-shipping it out. There's a ton of precedent behind that idea. Very common. The white binding is a typical Gibson head-scratcher. Who knows? It's also factory for sure. The headstock finish phosphoresces exactly like the untouched headstock finish. So, the finish is all period. Pretty cool...

I bet any black A2Z that surfaces went something like this. "Hey, I want a fancy black A." "Bob, go grab that A2Z with the pitch pocket/weird anomaly on the top and paint it black" Problem solved...

The finish is period and original. It looks like any other of the piles of black mandolins I've seen (and owned) from the period. This has been around, for sure...

Thanks for the input. I'm certainly not trying to make this into some kind of legendary mandolin. But, it is actually a documented black A2Z. And, that's cool. How it came to be, well that's the fun.

Brian

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## Eric Hanson

“I see a pumpkin, and I want to paint it black” 

So sorry. I just couldn’t resist.

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40bpm, 

allenhopkins, 

Charles E., 

jim simpson, 

Joe Robinson, 

Nevin, 

Timbofood

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## pheffernan

> I always wonder if they did a natural A2Z and found a wood flaw and painted it black to hide it. That's my guess.


That has always been my guess too, but I would think that flaw would have surfaced and that decision would have been made before the orange finish was applied. 




> But, the top binding is white. So, A2Z features and label but white binding- Gibson! Maybe they wouldn't put black/white binding on a black instrument. Did they rebind it at the factory before shooting it black? Was it natural with white binding from the start?


I would have to believe that #74791 is from the same FON (11991) and it has the extra body binding:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/74791






> I bet any black A2Z that surfaces went something like this. "Hey, I want a fancy black A." "Bob, go grab that A2Z with the pitch pocket/weird anomaly on the top and paint it black" Problem solved...


I guess it’s possible that a black top was a demand-side issue in which a customer requested something particular, but my understanding is that Gibson reserved higher grade spruce (aesthetically speaking) for its A2-z’s and would be loath to cover it. Reading the tea leaves, I’d be more inclined to suspect that this mandolin was a supply-side event in which something happened between the completion of the instrument and shipment — a finish reaction? a physical scar? — that was more easily hidden with the black top. 

Cool instrument, regardless. I had looked at it many times, even linked to it in a recent post after which Charles listed it on hold. I wondered if I had played matchmaker but had no idea that the label would confirm my suspicions. 

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...94#post1764794

The closest I’ve come to a Black A2-z is the one I commissioned Mike to build for me. 



It too has A2-z clearly inscribed on the label:



I guess we’re on the lookout for this one next!

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/79224

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## yogiZ

What do you experts think of this beauty? A2 (Z?) SN not readable  FON 11999

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## pheffernan

> What do you experts think of this beauty? A2 (Z?) SN not readable  FON 11999


That’s the same FON as #79224 that I linked above which is listed as simply a “Style A” on Mandolin Archive.

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## yogiZ

There are two 11999 FONs on the Archive. One is a blond A2-Z #79845 and the one you mentioned.

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## Bfisher690

Pheffernan, I totally agree. It could be very possible that an A2Z had a finish issue or a scratch and they covered it with black paint at the factory and moved it along. But, it looks liker there is another black one like mine with the white binding. So, it seems they at least did a few with solid white binding, which makes sense for a black guitar where you wouldn't see the multi color binding anyway. So, it's a mystery.

It's like seeing a fiesta red Strat with a messed up sunburst underneath it in there wear spots. Typical but very cool. No one at the factory thought you'd wear through to the thing they were trying to cover up   ; )

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## pheffernan

> There are two 11999 FONs on the Archive. One is a blond A2-Z #79845 and the one you mentioned.


I’m sorry if I was unclear. I’ve posted about #79224 previously as being one black Style A in a FON that otherwise seems comprised of A2-z’s. It would be interesting (to me anyway) if #79845 is another blacktop from the same batch.




> But, it looks liker there is another black one like mine with the white binding.


Do you have a link for that one?

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## Bfisher690

Oh, I was just referring to the link you posted of the A. That has the same features as mine, but who knows what that label says...

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## pheffernan

> Oh, I was just referring to the link you posted of the A. That has the same features as mine, but who knows what that label says...


It’s listed as a Style A, but it’s from a different FON and a later range of serial numbers.

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## Bfisher690

Right. But maybe this happened through a range of batches. Maybe it was something Gibson did from time to time for a customer request or to two hide cosmetic issues...

Maybe they got hip to the idea of the upcharge (not on the early ones) and put A2Z on a few (like mine) to charge more ; ) Who knows...

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## pheffernan

> Right. But maybe this happened through a range of batches.


I think that’s very possible and explains the range of blacktop instruments with A2-z characteristics (though yours is the first I’ve seen with A2-z on the label). 




> Maybe it was something Gibson did from time to time for a customer request or to two hide cosmetic issues...


I’m far more inclined to think the latter than the former. 




> Maybe they got hip to the idea of the upcharge (not on the early ones) and put A2Z on a few (like mine) to charge more ; ) Who knows...


My guess is that the blacktop would be a downcharge at the time, as it was associated with the “lesser” Style A (like mine) during that period.

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## Bfisher690

All valid points. I am inclined towards the cosmetic cover, too ; )

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## yogiZ

My A2 has black lining on top which you can see where the black rubbed off 
Has black lining appeared on other mandos?

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## Dan Adams

I remember in the 70s hearing that the black top models were a result of cosmetic flaws or wood inconsistencies?  Im sure it falls in line with some of these current theories but whos going to strip off the finish to prove or disapprove the idea?

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## eightmoremiles

Herr yogiZ. I have a blacktop snakehead identical to the one you show (minus a few 'beauty marks'). The FON is 11999. The sn is 79212. According to Spann it was made in late 1923 "with a batch of A2Zs, and shipped in late 1925. Sold by Miles Music Store, a Gibson dealer in Knoxville TN. The label is clear , and it indicates Style A. Not A2, not A2Z. And yet it has the trim level of an A2Z, and sounds more like an A2Z than any simple A models that I have seen and played. The black is worn slightly on the bass side, and it has a natural or no finish underneath. What do you mean by "black lining on the top"?
pheffernan notes that yours (and mine) are identical to sn 79224 in the Archives, and I agree with that.

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## Bfisher690

This all points in one direction for me. If you have an A2Z batch and something messes up the finish, you paint it black. In my case it got the A2Z designation, and in many cases they marked it an A (or A2?)...

Seems fairly simple. Maybe if it was a wood flaw, you cover it in black with no other finish underneath. Maybe in the case of mine, a natural finish had an issue, and you shoot black over it like Fender did all the time. Maybe before that you rebind it with plain white binding like an A2...

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## yogiZ

The top has white binding all around, but on the spots where the black finish has gone you can see a black binding on the inner side of the white binding. Isn't typical for A2z and A3?

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## Masterbilt

> (...) Then, I looked at the label this morning (with my glasses finally on). Clear as day (a faded day): A2Z on the label with the serial number 74795. Now I remember hearing of another black a2z from this batch but never saw the label. (...)
> 
> Brian


Brian - wonderful looking mandolin! Question: What is the FON of your #74795? is it readable? (or did I miss it?)

Felix

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## pheffernan

> Brian - wonderful looking mandolin! Question: What is the FON of your #74795? is it readable? (or did I miss it?)


I guessed 11991 based on an A2-z in close proximity of serial numbers (#74791) on the Mandolin Archive.

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## Masterbilt

> I guessed 11991 based on an A2-z in close proximity of serial numbers (#74791) on the Mandolin Archive.


I doubt it - because they have different style soundhole rings: Known examples with FON 11991 have two thin wooden soundhole rings, while #74795 has the wide ivoroid soundhole ring. From what I have seen, examples with the same FON have the same soundhole ring style. 

With A2-z models, serial numbers and FONs don't all line up chronologically.

Felix

P.S. Moreover, #74791 may possibly be a misquoted number - the same instrument is also in the Mandolin Archive as #74971 ! - see pic.

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pheffernan

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## Jim Garber

> What do you experts think of this beauty? A2 (Z?) SN not readable  FON 11999


Same as mine... Label just says A  with not readable SN (someone wrote over with pencil but without the first 7) but same rosette, back binding and inlaid logo on headstock and same FON 11999.

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pheffernan

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## f5loar

I don't see how you could misread that label.  It's an A2-Z on a cloudy day.

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## Beanzy

Is there any way to tell if mandolins were originally part of one of the orchestra sets that Gibson used to make up and ship to orchestras? Just thinking there may be other reasons for refinishing other than cosmetic covering up. If an orchestra wanted a set of black instruments then the a bit of repurposing to make up a set would make sense too. Has anyone ever found any info that would allow those sets to be identified?

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## Bfisher690

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. Fascinating stuff. Sent the A2Z off to Cumberland Acoustics for a Refret and a setup. Really excited to have it back. It will be with me for the long-haul for sure. When I first picked it up, I knew it was a keeper. It's label is cool, for sure. But, I love the story and the discussion that is has generated. I write about guitars in my spare time, and the history and strange practices of Gibson fascinate me. I love Martins, but they are straight instruments ; ) I'm kinda crooked ; )

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## Jim Garber

Gibson was notoriously strange in its practices for sure. That is why we love them. I have had my A-2 for about 40 years. Sometimes the newer kids get more play time but I always pick it up and appreciate it.

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## j. condino

Anything is possible with a factory produced instrument.

I will occasionally _intentionally_ make a black topped mandolin that has a burst back or neck. For those instruments, I burst the initial coat of the top the same as the back, before the black gets added. It is a subtle little surprise for the future owner in 50 years when the finish starts getting worn, just like the English imported 1950s stratocasters that had red over an original burst finish that did not show up until recently when the topcoat finally was worn down.

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jim simpson

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## Matt Bowe

This mandolin was purchased from Mandolin Brothers advertised as a '1923 A2' with serial number 74753. FON 11971.
 After several years of playing part of the top finish revealed the characteristic 'black inside white' top binding
It also has two superimposed labels but doesn't indicate a model.

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## dhergert

Beautiful instruments...  

But, a word of caution...  I have a friend whose beautiful ca ~2000 black body Martin dreadnought's top-center-seam opened up while being played under about 30 minutes of direct southern California summer sun.  This wasn't in the desert, just in one of the towns outside of L.A., so there was nothing extraordinary going on.  And in that group, other people who had similar vintage natural finish Martins also in the sun had no problem.  

Since witnessing that I hesitate to play any black or dark finish instrument in direct sunlight.  They just get too hot, too fast.  Best to err on the side of caution.

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## Charles Johnson

> The top has white binding all around, but on the spots where the black finish has gone you can see a black binding on the inner side of the white binding. Isn't typical for A2z and A3?


Yes, thats is one of the identifing characteristics

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## Charles Johnson

Remember the mandolin was intended for classical music. The musicians wore formal dress, and it was not uncommon for them to request the Gibson respray their instrument black to be "more formal". I have had several instruments that were resprayed black, including a 1920 F4 and a 1915 A3.

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## Jeff Mando

> Remember the mandolin was intended for classical music. The musicians wore formal dress, and it was not uncommon for them to request the Gibson respray their instrument black to be "more formal". I have had several instruments that were resprayed black, including a 1920 F4 and a 1915 A3.


I have often heard that instruments were oversprayed in clear to "freshen them up" when sent back to Gibson to preserve a new appearance for musicians playing "tuxedo" gigs.

Similarly, I seem to remember Brian Epstein having John Lennon's Rickenbacker guitar repainted black to freshen up their image in the Beatles pre-fame days....

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## eightmoremiles

My "A" snakehead with A2Z trimmings. Note the black trim internal to the white binding on the bass side (which is obscured where the black top finish is intact)

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## pheffernan

> It will be with me for the long-haul for sure. When I first picked it up, I knew it was a keeper.


This long-haul keeper appears on the move again, having gone from Charles Johnson to the OP and more recently TR Crandall to the classifieds in the last year. I hope it finds a good home. 

https://trcrandall.com/collections/a...23-gibson-a2-z

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/168109#168109

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## Jim Garber

> This long-haul keeper appears on the move again, having gone from Charles Johnson to the OP and more recently TR Crandall to the classifieds in the last year. I hope it finds a good home. 
> 
> https://trcrandall.com/collections/a...23-gibson-a2-z
> 
> https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/168109#168109


I am sure it will be another long-haul keeper for the next owner as well as subsequent owners for the long haul after that.  :Smile: 

I will never say that about any instrument I own but this A2 has been with me for more than 40 years. I guess that is a long haul already. 

I still like coming back to it and its neck is perfect for me. If I ever commissioned a mandolin from a luthier I would show him or her that neck to duplicate.

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