# Octaves, Zouks, Citterns, Tenors and Electrics > Tenor Guitars >  Tenor Guitar tuning - CGDA vs GDAE ????

## Taylor and Tenor

I recently purchased a tenor guitar that came from the manufacturer tuned CGDA which I intent to play at traditional Irish music sessions along with my mandolin.

The tenor guitar can be tuned to GDAE with the proper set of strings thus allowing me to play tunes I know with the same fingering as a mandolin.  Thus avoiding go through the re-learning process or always be forced into playing tunes in the key of C for now.

What is the most common tuning of a tenor guitar -  CGDA or GDAE ?  How do you have your tenor guitar tuned and why?

Your input will be greatly appreciated

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s11141827

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## acousticphd

This has been discussed in several previous threads, if you hunt down the list. 
"True" tenor enthusiasts will tell you that CGDA is "true" tenor tuning, which is also used by many (most?) tenor banjo players.

I think the best answer is it doesn't matter.  One tuning may suit your guitar better than another though, depending on the scale length, strings, and other variables.   
Though I don't play much tenor lately, I mostly use CGDA; or I will sometimes tune down to Bb and capo up two, to shorten up the scale.  When I play tuned CGDA, I inevitably mentalize as though I have transposed to a different key/scale/fingerings, even though this is an illusion.   But it may help to start thinking of tenor fingerings this way:  They are essentially the same fingering as on mandolin, except shifted by one string.  It is a mandolin, with the top E removed, and a low C added, which extends and/or shifts your fingerings.  

Octave GDAE tuning will also work fine, but with heavier gauge strings - there were numerous suggestions on string guages in a recent thread.  One factor I find can be a nuisance is that your saddle really needs to be compensated differently when using a wound 2nd string, which will probably need to be the case with GDAE tuning.

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Christine Robins

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## acousticphd

I wanted to add that, after replying above, I noticed your post & review of the Aria tenor.
I've noticed these guitars online.  I believe these guitars differ from most traditional tenors in that they do not have a shortened (tenor) scale - they are essentially a normal ~25" scale guitar with 4 strings - do I remember this right?  
In this case, I think it really would be much better suited for GDAE (and I'm surprised the mfr or distributor strung it up for CGDA).

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## Taylor and Tenor

Although body on Aria AF is rather large (15LB x 11UB x 4D x 19L), the scale length on the Aria AF is 23.125 inches.  Well below the normal six string guitar 25 inch scale length and I think more in line with an octave mandolin.

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## mandroid

A 3rd tuning is common too, DGBE..  just sayin' ..

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DavidKOS

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## Charles E.

If you want to play fiddle tunes, esp Irish, GDAE is the way to go. I tune my tenors CGDA. I think this tuning is more versitile for a wider range of music. I play in a large Oldtime stringband and also play Swing and Dixiland. The CGDA tuning sounds better when playing chords and also lends it's self to playing in C and F, common swing keys. I use a capo on the second fret for playing fiddle tunes in D and A.

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## Eddie Sheehy

I prefer my Tenor guitar tuned GDAE.  I used to cringe when tuning the A string in CGDA - and usually broke it...

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nultylynch, 

s11141827

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## WillFly

I have both tenor guitar and tenor banjo tuned CGDA - the reason being that, as they're tuned in 5ths like my mandolin and violin, the fingering for traditional tunes is all very similar. Like Charles E., I often use a capo for tunes in D and A. F (without capo) is a particularly good key for the CGDA tuning - and nearly all the jazz stuff I do is in that key. :-)

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## Eddie Sheehy

GDAE is also in fifths and even more like mandolin and violin tuning... (down a fifth from Mandola/Tenor and equal to OM or Zouk - requires no auto-transposing of keys e.g G on GDAE = C on CGDA etc.)

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## Lefty3

I've been playing mine in Open C, tuned CGCG, but then everything is in C or I'll use a capo.

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## mrmando

I didn't realize you had to tune them.

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ChuckNOS, 

Explorer

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## swankerme

Tenor guitars are normally tuned CGDA and are said to typically have a 23" scale. Does this mean that for a tenor guitar be tuned GDAE, the scale length should theoretically be longer? The low G is fairly close to a guitars low E, so shouldn't the scale be just slightly less than 25.5? (If attempting to maintain a guitar-like sustain/sound)

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## bruce.b

I think the 23" scale is pretty much perfect for GDAE. If you took a regular 6 stringer and capoed on the third fret to get a G on the low string you'd probably be close to 23". I'd say 21" would be better than 23" for CGDA, but then it all depends on what you like.

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## Ed Goist

Bumping...

I'll be getting my first tenor guitar, and although I may eventually have it set-up for GDAE, I've decided to keep it in CGDA to begin with. I figure this will give me an opportunity to explore this new (to me) tuning.

Also, since I usually play alone, I figure that I'll just use my mandolin/octave mandolin fingerings, and thereby play stuff in the typical key + 4. So, there will be plenty of 'Blues in C to begin with'  :Smile: 

For others who have done this (gone to CGDA after being familiar with GDAE), did you find CGDA easy to pick-up? Do you now easily go back and forth?

Which tuning sounds better on the average box (say a Blueridge BR-40t)?

Other comments or observations?

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## Eddie Sheehy

There's no difference.  You just play in a different key...

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Christine Robins

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## multidon

Ed- My tenor is a $5 yard sale former basket case by an unknown maker that I restored myself. You can read about my restoration project if you're interested, just search the threads for "mystery yard sale find" and "tenor guitar restoration complete". It has a 20 inch scale, short even for TG standards. Body is about the size of a Martin #5 "Terz". I really wanted GDAE tuning so I used Graham's online string tension calculator to find the best gauges that would give me tension equal to CGDA, or at least no higher (it has no neck stiffener as far as I know. Certainly no adjustable truss rod). I found that GHS OM strings did it. No problem with nut or bridge, it was missing both so I had to make new ones and just cut them to the needed gauges. I used a non-compensated floating bridge so I just tilt it a bit and it's pretty darned close. I think it sounds really sweet in GDAE! So glad I did it. Tenors in CGDA sound kind of tinny to me. Plus I like staying consistent with my mando and fiddle.

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## Beanzy

I tend to think of the CGDA tuning as more natural for the transition between mandolin and tenor guitar.
I read the mandolin in treble and am using the bass clef for the tenor guitar. 
When I pick it up I do a switch about in my head which says reading bass clef = going down to the C string/losing the E.
So lower sounding instrument = lower tuning; just a little trigger to make it easier to switch.
The scale patterns are ok as I play CGDA (cello) anyway, but 4 finger chords with the low string are a whole new kettle of fish for me.

As for the sound I did tune my Martin LMX down again to the lower GDAE but it lost a lot of the resonance and went a bit dead.
I know it's a HPLaminate body, but I was surprised at the difference in performance. I love the sound when up in CDGA, I didn't think you could do laminates to sound this good. I'm sure some would be a bit sniffy about them, but it's got me to drop some of my 'must be' solid wood prejudgices.

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## delsbrother

The OP was talking about using the tenor in an Irish setting - most Irish tenor banjo players I know tune GDAE, so if you want to sound/finger like them then I would go that route. 

If your goal was to play _violao tenor_ like _Garoto_, then I would tune CGDA.  :Smile:

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DavidKOS

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## martinedwards

In Ireland we like to be contrary....

or to use a good Donegal word, "Thrand"

HERE, tenor banjo is tuned GDAE

tenor guitars?

the ONLY one I've ever seen in Ireland is the one that I made myself.......

theres a thread here if youre interested.....

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...t-tenor-guitar

and I tune it GDAE with 56, 45, 26, 17 strings which are canabalized from a set of D'Addario mediums that I bought bulk a while back

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## multidon

> I know it's a HPLaminate body, but I was surprised at the difference in performance. I love the sound when up in CDGA, I didn't think you could do laminates to sound this good. I'm sure some would be a bit sniffy about them, but it's got me to drop some of my 'must be' solid wood prejudgices.


It is true that HPL Martins sound better than one would think they should. I had a chance to buy the tenor version but passed because I had heard GDAE was a problem with them. It was a worthy idea though. Too bad they didn't make one with a solid wood top.

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## Ed Goist

:Smile:

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## Ed Goist

I just used the McDonald Patent Universal String Tension Calculator to determine the tension differences between CGDA and GDAE tunings on a standard scale tenor guitar (22 7/8" or 58.1 cm) using common string gauges. The tensions seem to be nearly identical!

I used the _'long scale mandola'_ setting (with properly adjusted scale) to get the CGDA string tensions, and the _'short scale Bouzouki'_ setting (again with properly adjusted scale) to get the GDAE tensions. Here's what I came up with:

* A tenor guitar (22 7/8" scale), tuned CGDA with strings .010, .014, .022W, .032W has a total string tension of *40.18 kg.*

* A tenor guitar (22 7/8" scale), tuned GDAE with strings .013, .020W,.030W, .042W has a total string tension of *38.97 kg.*

Very interesting!

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DavidKOS, 

MarkHunter

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## multidon

Ed- You did EXACTLY what I did and came to the same conclusion- a typical CGDA set and a typical GSAE set have very close to the same tension (with appropriate string gauges of course). That's why it works so well! The only problem is the nut and saddle slots- nothing a set of properly gauged nut files won't fix! I use GHS OM strings on mine- 12, 22W, 32W, 44W- plus you get 2 sets for the price of one!

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## Ed Goist

> Ed- You did EXACTLY what I did and came to the same conclusion- a typical CGDA set and a typical GSAE set have very close to the same tension (with appropriate string gauges of course). That's why it works so well! The only problem is the nut and saddle slots- nothing a set of properly gauged nut files won't fix! I use GHS OM strings on mine- 12, 22W, 32W, 44W- plus you get 2 sets for the price of one!


So loop end strings work okay with bridge pins? Do you place the loop over the end of the pin?

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## multidon

Ed, my tenor has a floating bridge and a mandolin tailpiece. The original tailpiece was a clamshell banjo tailpiece but it caused me problems so I just replaced it. That tailpiece was built for loop end too. I am guessing that you will have to buy single strings to get a set of ball ends in the gauges you want for your Blueridge. Good luck!

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s11141827

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## Ed Goist

Looks like these are the ticket...
John Pearse 450L Tenor Guitar Strings: For GDAE tuning, 80/20 Bronze wound, ball ended. Gauges: .013, .020w, .030w, .042w

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s11141827

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## tashook

Don, if you modify the nut and bridge with a file will this prohibit you from changing back to CDGA strings?

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s11141827

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## multidon

> Don, if you modify the nut and bridge with a file will this prohibit you from changing back to CDGA strings?


I never really thought about it, but now that you bring it up it is possible you can't go back. The slots would be too big- .012 for a .010 string, .022 for a .014, .032 for a .022, and .044 for a .032. Now, if you were to go back to CGDA it is POSSIBLE you could get a buzz or rattle in the slots...or not. It the strings don't make noise you're good to go. If they are noisy you are up a creek. Only way to tell if that would work would be to try it.

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s11141827

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## multidon

If you cut the slots for the John Pearse set Ed wants to try it might be a little better. They aren't quite as fat as the ones I use. Another thought: if you have a floating bridge like I do you could make 2 bridges, one for each set, very easily. You could make different saddles for each set for a pin bridge IF the saddle is removable. Nut would be more problematic.

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s11141827

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## Ed Goist

> If you cut the slots for the John Pearse set Ed wants to try it might be a little better. They aren't quite as fat as the ones I use. ...snip...


Don, during my search for a first tenor I was told that one of the biggest benefits of the longer 23" scale tenor guitars is that the longer scale facilitates GDAE strings that are low enough in gauge to make it possible to go back and forth between GDAE & CGDA without needing to adjust the nut and saddle.

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s11141827

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## Beanzy

> 


Bingo! Thanks Ed that's going straight in the gig-bag.  :Smile:

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s11141827

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## Malcolm G.

> Bingo! Thanks Ed that's going straight in the gig-bag.


Moi, as well! 

You're a wealth of info, Ed!

Would saddle compensation change? I'd have no problem making up multiple nuts and multiple saddles - just have to get the correct compensated blanks.

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s11141827

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## multidon

> Would saddle compensation change? I'd have no problem making up multiple nuts and multiple saddles - just have to get the correct compensated blanks.


Yes, saddle compensation would change in GDAE if you use a wound A. I have a floating bridge and I get acceptable intonation using a straight uncompensated saddle with a slight tilt up on the treble side.

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## Terry Allan Hall

Prefer Irish (GDAE) for both of my Tenors (guitar and banjo), because by the time I'd taken them up, I'd been playing mandolin for about 20 years, so all I had to do is adapt to the longer scales. Did keep another tenor banjo in Dixieland (CGDA) for jazz gigs, but found that Irish tuning works just as well, and none of the bands I worked with cared one way or the other, really, so I eventually gifted it to one of my mandolin students.

Also, the Irish tuning covers about the range of the guitar, so it's good for backing up other instruments, as well as for lead lines.  :Cool:

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## Dolamon

re loop ends on a pin bridge guitar. Jack Spira came up with a nifty trick for his pin bridge instruments ... he drills a hole across the channel for the strings. What you do is thread the string through the hole, then loop the string over the bottom of the pin. So simple and so elegant. I have used them on both my Spira Mandola and O/M and as simple as it is ... it works. 

(If you want to try this, drill the hole @ 1/16 or less, at least half way down the peg. After the string is threaded and looped, give it a good pull or two to set the string and keep it from moving when you install it. I even tried it on a few of the brass pins which are available - I would get an extra set of pegs before you try this.)

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## Mike Herlihy

Hate to bring up the dreaded "C-word" but if you capo on the second fret of CGDA - you get the DAEB and are able to play most Irish tunes (GDAE - DAEB).

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## Brad Weiss

Ok, late to this thread, and just picking it up now.  I'm sure the GDAE tuning is the way to go for the Irish music the OP asked about.  I had my Gibson TG-50 tuned in G for a month, but found it too slack, and the chords were muddy, so I thought I'd try CGDA tuning.  And I love it! A much brighter and tighter sounds, with fuller chords, and nice resonance for jazzier leads, too. But the fingering for the choro I like to play meant I had to relearn a bunch of tunes, which I found maddening. So I found a solution.  A capo at the second fret turns the tuning to DAEB - the top of the mandolin, plus a high B. It's perfect for almost every choro, except for the ones that have a note or two below C (and there aren't all that many of those), and the fingering is the same. Cool! I love the tone of the tenors, and may be unloading some mandolins since I'm so taken with this new sound, I never pick up a mando these days.

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s11141827

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## Shelagh Moore

I used to tune GDAE but these days play it in CDGA as I prefer the sound and chords in the higher tuning... also better for songs for me.

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## Mandobar

> Hate to bring up the dreaded "C-word" but if you capo on the second fret of CGDA - you get the DAEB and are able to play most Irish tunes (GDAE - DAEB).


see, now capo on a tenor is totally acceptable in my book, and even on a longer scale mandola (19")

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## Capt. E

Bumping an old thread here...
Just acquired a nice 20's vintage Stromberg Voisinet tenor guitar. Strung it with medium Octave Mandolin strings (D'Addario EJ80-unwound E string) and tuned it to GDAE. I don't think the instrument will take heavier strings. I have been trying out GDAD lately, which is a pretty cool tuning with wonderful open string tone on the two high strings. Great for blues.

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## Capt. E

Finally made some photos of my new tenor.  Enjoying it very much. The tone and volume is great all the way up the neck and the new Grover tuners work just fine (the originals are gone and someone had put on some cheap replacements). The guitar is 23" scale, floating bridge, and I am using octave mandolin strings, GDAE tuning (sometimes GDAD).

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fox

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## Capt. E

More photos: A previous owner had fun with the headstock. Considering having the stencil removed, but I kind of like it.

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## fox

Looks great!!

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## PhilGox

Hello,

I have a tenor banjo and barytone uke, both tuned GDAE.
They sound good.
When I want CGDA I put my capo at the 5th fret and they sound good to.
The neck is shortened but I don't often go past the 12th fret anyway.

So I ask to myself:

Suppose one hesitate between GDAE and CGDA.
Isn't it better to advice him GDAE?
GDAE can be easily changed in CGDA with a capo.
CGDA can't become GDAE.
So, regardless of taste, sound, style of music played etc... GDAE seems to me more interesting just because you can access both tunings.

Please correct me if what I say is stupid  :Smile:

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fox

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## fox

Quite correct Phil, not stupid at all & a good way to hear the different sound but, it might depend on what you are playing & how you approach the tenor guitar.
If you play your tenor guitar like a mandolin then that makes most sense.
If you play it like a guitar using chords, the shortened strings wont sustain very well and will also feel tight if you finger pick.
So yes you can capo GDAE to find out what CGDA might sound like but it wont sound or feel the same as CGDA on a full 23" scale.

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Dolamon

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## Cornfield

I recently converted from Chicago tuning to CGDA on my Martin 5-17  and tenor banjo. Wow! I never tried fifths tuning before. The chords are pretty easy to learn but the sound range is so much better. I love playing the D as a modal chord, without the regular or flatted third. I throw in the minor third (F) with some bending occasionally to get a real down sound.
Playing A, pulling odd to the open G, then open C hammer on the D gives it a real kick too.

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## Tim N

As a player of chords, it took me about a year to settle down with tenor guitar generally, and I  was frustrated by the tuning issue - because I initially wanted GDAE, but realised that the guitars which are easily available/affordable off the shelf (and in Germany that means online...) are not suited to it. The sellers can (and do) tell you what they like, but a short scale guitar like the Osark just doesn't work with Irish tuning, and even the 23" Blueridge only just about works with a really thick G string. Both of them really _want_ to be played in CGDA (or possibly CGDG), and sound good when tuned thus. If I played them with a capo on the 5th fret just for the sake of acheiving GDAE, I would have no joy in it.
So I think , ideally  you just have to have two instuments of different scales if you want to have the pleasure of both worlds. My long scale instrument is actually an Irish Bouzouki (c26"). It would be nice to have a long scale tenor too... but I'd probably have to look much further afield, and spend more to find one - or commission a build.

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## Seonachan

I realize there are advantages to standard tunings (whether CGDA or GDAE), especially when playing with others and/or in genres like ITM where certain keys are common-to-ubiquitous. But if you're not constrained by such things, there are other keys that can sound fantastic on a tenor guitar. I'm a big fan of BbFCG. On a 23" scale, a standard CGDA string set sounds and feels better to me tuned down that full step - more in the instrument's comfort zone as opposed to pushing the edge. A little mellower, a little darker. And of course you can always capo up to standard if desired. Just my 2¢, knowing I'm in a minority.

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## Tim N

That's a good tip; I might well try it out. I must admit that CGDA can sound a little _too_ bright sometimes, and it's the top string that really does it. I tried a while with CGDG, which helps, but I personally find some of the the chord shapes less satisfactory. 
I've noticed that capoing a tenor isn't quite so straightforward. I have a whole range of normal guitar capos, but none sit very happily. I tried buying a banjo capo, but it was too small for the Blueridge which has a deep neck profile. Any tips?

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## fox

I agree with Secnachan, I find the A (cgda) far to stressed on a 23" scale but of course thousands of folk use just that format very successfully so it might just be us.

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## bbcee

I have a Harmony 1201T that really likes to be tuned GDAE. when i first got it, coming from mando, I capo'd up two frets & tuned the same, as the finger stretch was killing me. Now that I'm used to it, I play uncapo'd in GDAE. It has a wonderful, deep and mellow sound.

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s11141827

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## Tim N

[QUOTE= On a 23" scale, a standard CGDA string set sounds and feels better to me tuned down that full step - more in the instrument's comfort zone as opposed to pushing the edge. A little mellower, a little darker. And of course you can always capo up to standard if desired. [/QUOTE]

Tried it now - and you're absolutely right! Have now got my Blueridge tuned to BbFCG. Along with the flatwound strings I feel I've got a sound and a feel I'm really happy with. Both tips from folk on this forum.  :Smile:

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s11141827

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## s11141827

I found these John Pearse 450 Tenor Guitar Strings they're 80/20 Bronze Wound Custom gauge:https://www.elderly.com/products/joh...nor-guitar-set & are designed to tune the Tenor Guitar like a Violin/Mandolin (but down an Octave) that's GDAE, the gauges from top to bottom are 13, 20w, 30w, 42w. Warren Ellis uses this Tuning on his Tenor Guitar so we can play his music pretty easily. GDAE Tuning isn't just for Irish Music, it's also great for playing Jazz because Tenor Guitars tend to be tuned pretty high at CGDA, & tuning them down a perfect fourth to GDAE w/ strings designed for that tuning really mellows it out so that it doesn't sound too thin. The Wound 2nd String (Eddie Lang popularized having a Wound 2nd String BTW) gives you a more consistent tone. GDAE Tuning is also great for Singer-Song writers when you're singing & strumming:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6XZ0pIymq4

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## s11141827

> Ok, late to this thread, and just picking it up now.  I'm sure the GDAE tuning is the way to go for the Irish music the OP asked about.  I had my Gibson TG-50 tuned in G for a month, but found it too slack, and the chords were muddy, so I thought I'd try CGDA tuning.  And I love it! A much brighter and tighter sounds, with fuller chords, and nice resonance for jazzier leads, too. But the fingering for the choro I like to play meant I had to relearn a bunch of tunes, which I found maddening. So I found a solution.  A capo at the second fret turns the tuning to DAEB - the top of the mandolin, plus a high B. It's perfect for almost every choro, except for the ones that have a note or two below C (and there aren't all that many of those), and the fingering is the same. Cool! I love the tone of the tenors, and may be unloading some mandolins since I'm so taken with this new sound, I never pick up a mando these days.


Actually the strings are really slack cause they're not heavy gauge enough. John Pearse Strings are designed for that tuning w/o being slack.

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## s11141827

> I prefer my Tenor guitar tuned GDAE.  I used to cringe when tuning the A string in CGDA - and usually broke it...


I think this lower tuning reduces the amount of tension so that it won't break.

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## s11141827

Also alot of Tenor Guitars have slightly deeper (sometimes bigger) bodies than most of you think so that when tuned GDAE w/ John Pearse 450s, they sound amazing.

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## s11141827

Also GDAE Tuning w/ John Pearse 450 Strings will reduce the string breakage since the tension is lower. The Lower Tension makes the strings easier to press down & the heavier gauge prevents them from sounding too thin.

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## s11141827

First of all CGDA isn't a true Tenor Range, it's an Alto Range. GDAE is the True Tenor Range.

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## Monte Barnett

> First of all CGDA isn't a true Tenor Range, it's an Alto Range. GDAE is the True Tenor Range.


So if it's tuned CGDA it's really an alto guitar? I'm curious if anyone (maybe John Pearse) makes strings for alto guitar ..... not really .... I'm just being sarcastic responding to a dead thread.  :Disbelief:  :Disbelief:

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fox, 

Jill McAuley

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## Jill McAuley

> So if it's tuned CGDA it's really an alto guitar? I'm curious if anyone (maybe John Pearse) makes strings for alto guitar ..... not really .... I'm just being sarcastic responding to a dead thread.


s11141827 seems to be on a mission to resurrect all the dead threads so they can recommend John Pearse strings. I'm sure they're not connecting to the company in any way though.......

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Monte Barnett

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## s11141827

> I just used the McDonald Patent Universal String Tension Calculator to determine the tension differences between CGDA and GDAE tunings on a standard scale tenor guitar (22 7/8" or 58.1 cm) using common string gauges. The tensions seem to be nearly identical!
> 
> I used the _'long scale mandola'_ setting (with properly adjusted scale) to get the CGDA string tensions, and the _'short scale Bouzouki'_ setting (again with properly adjusted scale) to get the GDAE tensions. Here's what I came up with:
> 
> * A tenor guitar (22 7/8" scale), tuned CGDA with strings .010, .014, .022W, .032W has a total string tension of *40.18 kg.*
> 
> * A tenor guitar (22 7/8" scale), tuned GDAE with strings .013, .020W,.030W, .042W has a total string tension of *38.97 kg.*
> 
> Very interesting!


Having less tension in GDAE Tuning than CGDA is actually great because alot of Tenor Guitars (especially those w/ a Scale Length longer than 23) are known to have the High A String pop. So w/ GDAE Tuning you'll be able to get the strings tuned up to pitch more easily, plus it mellows out the instrument's sound.

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## Explorer

> First of all CGDA isn't a true Tenor Range, it's an Alto Range. GDAE is the True Tenor Range.


Wow... nope. 

Tenor banjo was tuned to match viola tuning. I think the first documented commercial tenor banjo dates to 1908, with a method for its CGDA tuning dating to 1913.

4-string tenor guitar developed so tenor banjo players could easily double on a guitar-bodied instrument.

Tunings for tenor banjo and tenor guitar have been generally recognized, and set in print in books, as Standard Tenor CGDA, Chicago Tuning DGBE, and Irish Tenor Tuning GDAE. 

Quite a few of the original method books for tenor banjo are now available as free downloads. I highly recommend doing a little research on those materials, dating back more than a century, to avoid embarassing pronouncements which are incorrect.

I can understand and sympathise if you are assuming that tenor banjo nomenclature in North America, subsequently applied to the tenor guitar developed in that same region, should match the "alto mandola" and "tenor mandola" classifications in the UK and elsewhere. Still, they don't, being from a completely different region and tradition. Sorry!




> s11141827 seems to be on a mission to resurrect all the dead threads so they can recommend John Pearse strings. I'm sure they're not connecting to the company in any way though.......


I didn't catch the JP Strings thing, but was astonished when the user necrobumped *two* of my old topics regarding my Ovation 12-string mandophone, recommending strings which were so light they would bend sharp just by fretting them. I had actually put in a lot of effort figuring out what worked in actual practice, so it was a bit amusing to see the armchair declarations which didn't seem to originate in the real world.

Still, given that forum posts can be helpful to those who come later in search of information, I figure it's good to call that stuff out when it happens. Otherwise things which are easily disproven by the historical record might be repeated to the point where misinformation takes on a life of its own.

Cheers!

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Beanzy, 

DavidKOS, 

Jill McAuley, 

Monte Barnett

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## Explorer

> Having less tension in GDAE Tuning than CGDA is actually great because alot of T*enor Guitars (especially those w/ a Scale Length longer than 23) are known to have the High A String pop*. So w/ GDAE Tuning you'll be able to get the strings tuned up to pitch more easily, plus it mellows out the instrument's sound.


It's worth knowing that a normal plain steel string will break fairly quickly when tuned above G4 at a 25.5" scale length. 

If it's a heavier string, it's stronger, but requires higher tension, leading to breakage.

If it's a lighter string, it doesn't require as much tension, but it's weaker, leading to breakage.

It's a weird area of convergence between the two related factors of strength and required tension.

A plain string will also break above G#4 at around a 24" scale length.

It's not a surprise that "alot" break when tuned higher than the scale length permits. The surprise would be that any normal plain steel string would hold up for long under such conditions.

Anyway, hopefully this is useful information for anyone considering their tuning options at a scale length greater than 23".

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Monte Barnett

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## mandroid

Longer scale (23") I am using FCGD .. & a capo..  :Whistling:

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## sounds_good

> Longer scale (23") I am using FCGD .. & a capo..


_Which_ D ?
And what gauge string are you using for that?

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## Explorer

> Longer scale (23") I am using FCGD .. & a capo..


So, a whole step below GDAE, capoed at the second fret. Interesting!





> _Which_ D ?
> And what gauge string are you using for that?


At that pitch and scale length, of course, no strings will pop, but yeah... how heavily do you string that set?

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## mandroid

Or,  E B F# C#. still ascending 5ths ...

Strings? I'm still using what came on the Ibanez AVT1


you have short scale motor skills issues? capo to the 5th.

 :Whistling:

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## Explorer

> you have short scale motor skills issues? capo to the 5th.


It's funny that you mention going shorter.

I have Jeff Cowherd's Army/Navy prototype, with a 14" scale length. He had listed another mandolin at the same time which he had strung as a mandola, using it as a travel mandola.. He was offering to restring it back as a mandolin, and to include the mandola bridge as well.

I thought about it a bit, and wound up restringing *my* J. Bovier pancake as a mandola, and have happily used it as a travel instrument since then when space is *really* an issue, like when flying. (Otherwise I take my Flatiron 1SH beater mandola, purchased at a low price because of its condition and need for repairs. It will never be pretty, but now plays like a dream.)

That successful J. Bovier mandolin-to-mandola experiment led to me retuning another of the Flatiron mandolas, with a 17" scale length, to an octave mandolin. It's incredibly comfortable to use. (As of now, two of the five Flatiron mandolas are tuned as octaves.)

Capoing that 23" scale length tenor guitar to E B F# C#, and capoing at the fifth fret as you suggest to get to GDAE, gets you to a 17 1/4" acale length, just a bit longer than the 17" GDAE. That sounds comfortably playable.

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## Ryk Loske

I want to thank the posters in this thread for all the information ... especially about the Pearse tenor set.  I purchased a '38 Epiphone Triumph arch top tenor.  I hadn't been as happy as I could have been with the sound and changed the strings over this morning ... and the tuners.  This set of John Pearse tenors dramatically improves the sound for everything from trad jazz to Irish-Celtic to contra dance fiddle tunes.  Many thanks for the headzup.  What a community!
Ryk

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## s11141827

> Wow... nope. 
> 
> Tenor banjo was tuned to match viola tuning. I think the first documented commercial tenor banjo dates to 1908, with a method for its CGDA tuning dating to 1913.
> 
> 4-string tenor guitar developed so tenor banjo players could easily double on a guitar-bodied instrument.
> 
> Tunings for tenor banjo and tenor guitar have been generally recognized, and set in print in books, as Standard Tenor CGDA, Chicago Tuning DGBE, and Irish Tenor Tuning GDAE. 
> 
> Quite a few of the original method books for tenor banjo are now available as free downloads. I highly recommend doing a little research on those materials, dating back more than a century, to avoid embarassing pronouncements which are incorrect.
> ...


They recommend switching the bridge to an adjustable intonatable one.

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## s11141827

> It's worth knowing that a normal plain steel string will break fairly quickly when tuned above G4 at a 25.5" scale length. 
> 
> If it's a heavier string, it's stronger, but requires higher tension, leading to breakage.
> 
> If it's a lighter string, it doesn't require as much tension, but it's weaker, leading to breakage.
> 
> It's a weird area of convergence between the two related factors of strength and required tension.
> 
> A plain string will also break above G#4 at around a 24" scale length.
> ...


Octave4Plus makes special strings that can tune that high but you'd have to be gentle w/ them.

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## Explorer

> Octave4Plus makes special strings that can tune that high but you'd have to be gentle w/ them.


Interesting! Other than my now absent brother-in-music Groveland, I think I am the only one here who has extensively used O4+ strings. Have you used them... or are you just telling me what I've already said about them on the forum, minus actual details and experience?

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## maxr

Posts mentioned the John Pearse Tenor set - I use those on my Harley Benton tenor tuned G D A E, and they work well. A post above also mentiones that tenor guitars can be deeper bodied than you might expect. This one is 4"deep at the bottom, which seems a lot when you consider the top is shape like a tiny Dreadnought, less than 12 1/2" wide.

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## s11141827

> So, a whole step below GDAE, capoed at the second fret. Interesting!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At that pitch and scale length, of course, no strings will pop, but yeah... how heavily do you string that set?


Actually I tune GDAE for Jazz cause our Horn Section had their instruments converted up a whole step & they're now in the Keys of C & F. This also revived the Rare F Baritone Sax.

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## s11141827

> I tend to think of the CGDA tuning as more natural for the transition between mandolin and tenor guitar.
> I read the mandolin in treble and am using the bass clef for the tenor guitar. 
> When I pick it up I do a switch about in my head which says reading bass clef = going down to the C string/losing the E.
> So lower sounding instrument = lower tuning; just a little trigger to make it easier to switch.
> The scale patterns are ok as I play CGDA (cello) anyway, but 4 finger chords with the low string are a whole new kettle of fish for me.
> 
> As for the sound I did tune my Martin LMX down again to the lower GDAE but it lost a lot of the resonance and went a bit dead.
> I know it's a HPLaminate body, but I was surprised at the difference in performance. I love the sound when up in CDGA, I didn't think you could do laminates to sound this good. I'm sure some would be a bit sniffy about them, but it's got me to drop some of my 'must be' solid wood prejudgices.


Actually w/ GDAE you'll need John Pearse #450 Strings & there's less tension so it'll vibrate more freely.

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## s11141827

> I never really thought about it, but now that you bring it up it is possible you can't go back. The slots would be too big- .012 for a .010 string, .022 for a .014, .032 for a .022, and .044 for a .032. Now, if you were to go back to CGDA it is POSSIBLE you could get a buzz or rattle in the slots...or not. It the strings don't make noise you're good to go. If they are noisy you are up a creek. Only way to tell if that would work would be to try it.


I recommend getting a Zero Glide nut. It's an updated version of the Zero Fret system where the Zero fret is now attached to the nut, plus it enhances the longevity of the strings by 93% & it's really easy all you need to do is change the nut. An Intonatable bridge (like an Electric Guitar) would allow you to fine tune the intonation on each string.

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## s11141827

Actually John Pearse has a good set

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## s11141827

> If you cut the slots for the John Pearse set Ed wants to try it might be a little better. They aren't quite as fat as the ones I use. Another thought: if you have a floating bridge like I do you could make 2 bridges, one for each set, very easily. You could make different saddles for each set for a pin bridge IF the saddle is removable. Nut would be more problematic.


They recommend using a Zero Glide Banjo nut

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## s11141827

> It is true that HPL Martins sound better than one would think they should. I had a chance to buy the tenor version but passed because I had heard GDAE was a problem with them. It was a worthy idea though. Too bad they didn't make one with a solid wood top.


They worked around this issue by making the body a bit deeper

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## maxr

There's another business that does a range of Tenor G D A E string - Clifford Essex, currently online on Ebay UK (and maybe other countries?), website apparently developing. They make chrome tape wound, nickel and PB round wound tenor strings, for various tunings, in Light to Extra Heavy, .009 to .014 1st string depending on tuning and gauge required. Must try their GDAE tape wounds to see if they get rid of my squeaks.

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