# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  Chinese flatiron

## John Ritchhart

I saw a Chinese made mando with the Flatiron logo in the Gibson booth at Merlefest yesterday. So the rumors were true. I think I understand why they did it but as an owner of two really great American made Flatirons I felt a little sad when I saw it. Ah, progress.

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## bradeinhorn

interesting- anyone get a chance to play one? i am sure we'll hear about it on monday...

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## MikeEdgerton

Did it look like a re-branded Epiphone or was it a different instrument all together?

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## mythicfish

Not to worry ... I doubt if yours will relinquish their "citizenship"
BTW ... since this brand hasn't been available for years I don't understand why anyone would/ should care where they're made. 

Curt

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## bradeinhorn

i agree with curt. anyone who cares to know, will know the difference. i am just curious if they'll be another pacrim junker or a competitor for the km1000 or eastmans.

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## John Ritchhart

Curt, do you own one?

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## Greenmando

I have been hoping to buy a Flatiron F4 for years now, I wish I had not passed on the prototype now.

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## mando_dan

jbrwky, I'm right there with you- I own two Flatirons, a pre-Gibson and a Gibson Nashville, and I'm a bit distressed that another icon (yes, Flatirons are icons in the mandolin world) is now a cheap knock-off. I'm sure the Collings contingent (or fill in the blank with another current American-made mandolin company) would feel equally betrayed if their company's production were moved over seas. A Korean Collings is not the same as a Texas Collings. And an American Flatiron is not the same a Chinese Flatiron. Yes, I care. In fact I'll go on record saying that what Gibson is doing with the Flatiron name is dishonorable.

Flame away, but please, do not call me a jingoist or xenophobic as those names do not apply.

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## allenhopkins

> BTW ... since this brand hasn't been available for years I don't understand why anyone would/ should care where they're made.


The point I tried to make in this lengthy thread on Chinese Flatirons, when Greg Boyd announced that he'd heard a rumor that Gibson was going to make them in China -- was that it's too bad when an established American brand, associated with excellence, is co-opted for a "budget line" of imported instruments. Examples such as Epiphone, Washburn, Regal (well, maybe not _totally_ "associated with excellence") abound.

Maybe Gibson is going to give the "Flatiron" label to high-quality imported instruments, similar to Eastman or Kentucky. Experience with their Epiphones isn't all that encouraging, although the recent introduction of a "Masterbilt" line of quality Epiphone guitars is hopeful.

It's a bit sad when it just becomes a marketing ploy, not an effort to carry on the quality of the original line. I've heard that Fender Co. has taken the Guild line overseas, and of course the label "Fender" has long since been attached to a variety of inexpensive imported instruments, as well as quality imports and domestically-made models.

I also recall from the former thread, that our friends who work for Gibson stated they weren't informed that "export" of the Flatiron label was under consideration. Wonder if their opinions or input were solicited at any point in the decision process?

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## MikeEdgerton

As far as marketing goes I totally understand why Gibson would use the Flatiron name on an imported line of instruments. There is still value to the brand and this is obviously an attempt to profit from that value, and as they say, that's business. 

With that said I also understand the distress this might cause those loyal Flatiron owners, but in reality the brand changed when Gibson bought Flatiron, this is just a continuation of that change. If anything it will probably add value to your American made instruments. 

There's a part of me that hopes this is simply Gibson trying to grab market share in the Eastman et al portion of the mandolin market and that they will be selling a high end, high quality import brand as opposed to simply re-branding the Epiphone instruments as Flatiron's.

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## jk245

Today, search of the Gibson website has no indication of the said Flatiron either on product pages or press release. 
Until product is available for testing and evaluated it is not fair to make a value judgment on this product. 

If you have questions call Big Joe and he will tell you whatever the Gibson company wants you to know. As recent as last month on this he said



	Posted: Mar. 28 2007, 16:27 	QUOTE
"Rumors are always flying about Gibson products and its subsidiary products. That is nothing new. Some of them actually become true, but most do not. Could there be an imported Flatiron at some time in the future? Who knows. It has been discussed and several options have been included, including European imports. What will occur in the future? We will just have to wait to find out. I will only state what I know to be fact concerning these issues. There is always lots of speculation and that seems to make the cafe readers joyful. Just always take what someone who "knows" with a grain of salt. Until it is announced publicly it is just another idea someone may have passed around that will not likely ever see the light of day. " 

Big Joe Quote

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## MikeEdgerton

I don't think anyone is making a value judgment, you're talking raw emotions here, and the fact that it was on display in a Gibson booth at a major festival pretty much says that it exists no matter what anyone has said in the past. Big Joe put forth that message based on either what he knew or what he was allowed to say, it really doesn't matter either way. It sounds as if Greg Boyd knew something that the rest of the industry didn't.

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## John Flynn

> BTW ... since this brand hasn't been available for years I don't understand why anyone would/ should care where they're made.


I have no bias about where mandolins are made. I'd be proud to own a good mandolin from anywhere. I do think people are justifiably reacting to couple of ironies. 1) The perception, possibly true, that Gibson and its supporters have led the editorial opposition to Asian-made mandolins, but now Gibson is launching a brand of Asian-made mandolins, and 2) That Gibson hinted strongly that the new Flatirons would all be made here and now they are obviously not. It is much like the US car companies who led the outcry against Japanese cars at the same time they were cutting deals with Toyota, Suzuki, Mazda and a host of Asian parts suppliers. It's not so much the action itself, it's the hypocrisy.

For that reason, I would never choose to buy a new Gibson, Flatiron or Epiphone, even if I thought they were the best mandolin for the money, which I don't think they are. Just MHO.

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## MikeEdgerton

> The perception, possibly true, that Gibson and its supporters have led the editorial opposition to Asian-made mandolins, but are now launching a brand of Asian-made mandolins


That couldn't possibly be true, they've marketed two brands of Asian instruments for years. The Epiphone's were outsourced to the far east in the early 70's. 

Gibson is in business to make money. If they are bringing on a new line of import instruments they are simply following the market. They have a major share of the high-end market but I doubt they even scratch the middle of the market or for that matter the low end of the market. The same dealers that sell high end instruments generally sell mid and low end instruments. It's found money if they can get brand acceptance without diluting their high end models.

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## John Flynn

> That couldn't possibly be true, they've marketed two brands of Asian instruments for years. The Epiphone's were outsourced to the far east in the early 70's.


I didn't imply they only became hypocritical just recently. You should do some searches to threads that go back a few years, if they still exist. See if it "can't possibly be true."

The "just in the business to make money...just following the market" arguments are true and they are fine as far as they go. But if your target market doesn't like what you are doing, your market won't follow you and you won't make money.

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## MikeEdgerton

Actually, I've been a member under another name for a few years. I've read them. 

Gibson's target market does support their high end market and you need to take into account he fact that Gibson doesn't just sell mandolins. This move won't lose any market share for Gibson. If nothing else it gets them the entry to mid customers that will move up to more expensive instruments later on. If they bought from a Gibson dealer the first time there's a good chance they will go to the same place when they move up.

Just because a few people here don't like what they are doing doesn't mean that translates across the entire spectrum. The members here are an elite group of mandolin enthusiasts. I won't deny that. It would be silly to assume that the majority of any portion of the mandolin buying public is here on any level. The market is much larger than we are.

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## Chip Booth

I believe that I have said it before, but I will say it again. #I don't like that Gibson is doing this. #I proudly own a pre-Gibson Flatiron and would like the brand name to retain it's status. #

When I was in school we all ate at a late night diner called "The Kettle". It was the place to hang out after hours. #Some years later a chain moved into town called The Kettle and forced the mom and pop diner to change it's name to Akle's. #When that happened the next generation of school kids all went to "The Kettle" because that was where they always heard they should go. #Akle's is no longer in business.

Chip

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## jk245

From a marketing standpoint Gibson can still demand a high esteem for their top of the line "Gibson" labeled merchandise. 
Gibson is entitled to make a value judgment and use a purchased name for their lower end product line. 
I do not think they have a choice since other makers of good reputation are making good quality products in the Orient. A well known name gives them a startup advantage. 

Recently the prestige British Rover said it will become a Chinese Made Rover. Business is business.
If you still have an old original Rover it is still a great car.
If you still have an old original Flatiron it is still a great mando.

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## mandroid

The Gibson products , like Epiphone , and presumably Flatiron, have different distributorship arraingements, than OMI , as I learned in local shop chat, the minimums for each are hefty , and separate.

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## MikeEdgerton

That doesn't mean that these won't dovetail in behind the OMI instruments, and it doesn't mean that all OMI guys don't carry Epiphones.

When you sell anything that has a high to low end you try to hit the price points where people buy, that holds true if you're a manufacturer, distributor, or retailer. I'm assuming Gibson saw a hole in it's price points and is looking to fill it. 

It isn't the first time they've created inexpensive second lines to sell to non-Gibson dealers either.

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## fatt-dad

bummer. . . . As a geologist, I should know this, but are there even "flatirons" in China? It's Madison-Avenue-type exploitation and inconsistent with the "traditional values" I'm familiar with. By the way, I have no problems with world economics, ala "outsourcing" or overseas manufacturing. I just see this for what it is - getting the most money out of a name that they own.

f-d

f-d

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## Fretbear

It has become clear in the last six months that the demand for higher quality mandolins at consumer reachable prices has been recognized. Visiting this website alone, both by the potential consumers and marketers, could have seen to that, just another reason to like Scott Tichenor. I have always been dismayed that a decent guitar could long be had for around a $1000 or less but that a comparable mandolin was not (Eastman notwithstanding). I solved my problem by building, but am aware that (that) is not an option for many. Even if the motive is only for common profit, which it surely is, I am still glad that mandolins like the new Kentucky KM-1000 are starting to become available to players.

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## sunburst

This one even bugs me a little.
I don't care what Gibson does in business dealings. I don't care where a mandolin is made if it is well made. I don't care if Gibson thinks they can profit from an import line. All that's none of my business.

What bothers me is this:
When Flatiron worked out the bugs in their mandolin building process, they were about the best mandolins on the market at the time, other than a handful of small builders. Gibson hadn't had any apparent interest in making quality mandolins for years. The mandolin market wasn't very strong, and Les Pauls and such were Gibson's bread and butter in those days.
Some Japanese companies were getting pretty good at making mandolins, but it was Flatiron that finally brought a quality USA made mandolin back to the market. 
Rather than try to compete, Gibson bought the competition, eventually discontinued the brand, and now is reviving it only to send production where they can get cheap labor.

Flatiron, the brand that revived quality American mandolin production, is being attached to a new product for name recognition by a corporation. That's what sort of bugs me. Gibson is well within their rights. There's nothing ethically wrong with any of it. It just seems to me, and apparently to some others, that the Flatiron name deserves more than that.

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DataNick

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## cooper4205

> There's nothing ethically wrong with any of it. It just seems to me, and apparently to some others, that the Flatiron name deserves more than that.


well put, John

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## pickinNgrinnin

[quote]BTW ... since this brand hasn't been available for years I don't understand why anyone would/ should care where they're made.

Apparently some folks do:

[quote]This one even bugs me a little.
I don't care what Gibson does in business dealings. I don't care where a mandolin is made if it is well made. I don't care if Gibson thinks they can profit from an import line. All that's none of my business.

What bothers me is this:
When Flatiron worked out the bugs in their mandolin building process, they were about the best mandolins on the market at the time, other than a handful of small builders. Gibson hadn't had any apparent interest in making quality mandolins for years. The mandolin market wasn't very strong, and Les Pauls and such were Gibson's bread and butter in those days.
Some Japanese companies were getting pretty good at making mandolins, but it was Flatiron that finally brought a quality USA made mandolin back to the market.
Rather than try to compete, Gibson bought the competition, eventually discontinued the brand, and now is reviving it only to send production where they can get cheap labor.

Flatiron, the brand that revived quality American mandolin production, is being attached to a new product for name recognition by a corporation. That's what sort of bugs me. Gibson is well within their rights. There's nothing ethically wrong with any of it. It just seems to me, and apparently to some others, that the Flatiron name deserves more than that.


I suspect more folks will be weighing in who care where the Flatirons are now being made. I agree with John's view as stated above.

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## delsbrother

If the product is good, the model line is interesting, and the price is right, I've got no problem where they're made and what they're called. And if they're hunks of ####, then I won't buy one. Gibson's not the first nor the last company to do this. Let the market be their judge.

Do we really need to cry over this great injustice to the NAME of Flatiron? I suppose some of us are _Jonzeing_ to do that... Perhaps they should buy a new Weber. #

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## John Ritchhart

I agree that as a Flatiron owner I have some emotion on this which has nothing to do with business. Gibson bought Flatiron and I'm sure still has considerable "Goodwill" on the balance sheet. In order to make a Return on Total Capital, it makes sense that Gibson would want an income stream under this Brand Name. Doesn't stop me sticking my lip out though. I did play the Flatbamboo and for $800 it is an attractive entry level F5. The sound is typical of this range and it looks good. I really like Gibson and my two old Flatirons. It's good to have a venue like this to talk about it.

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## GTison

I don't like it. Seems to cheapen a brand that is held dear by everyone who owns the now older American built mandos. Makes you wonder If they would consider exporting the main line of mandolins (Gibson) too. (The employees would never be told of a move such as this either). Perhaps this is a trial balloon to that end. As it has been stated on here before that The Gibson OMI line is such a high cost affair. If the Chinese can build the equal of it wouldn't it make business sense in the wonderful "global economy" that we live in to ship the mfg over there and get a higher return on investment? Would it be great to get a DMM from China for only $6000? I don't know about that. It's kinda like my music store buddy said of Gibson, 'I think they wake up in the morning every day and say "I wonder what I can do Today to piss my dealers off"' I don't like it.

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## hanknc

Dear Flatiron,

It won't hurt much. Just a little pinprick and...there! That wasn't so bad, was it?

Hope you feel better soon!

Best Regards,
The Epiphone Company

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## mando_dan

[QUOTE]Do we really need to cry over this great injustice to the NAME of Flatiron? I suppose some of us are Jonzeing to do that... Perhaps they should buy a new Weber. 

It's not just the name, obviously, but what the name represents. The name Flatiron now represents a very well built and respected American-made instrument; the new Flatirons will represent well built American-made instruments. Who knows what the new line will be like but I feel quite confident in saying that the Chinese Flatirons won't be comparable in terms of tone, finish, playability, etc. to their older brothers and sisters. Does anyone disagree with that assertion?

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## Bill Van Liere

The name lives on and on

1. Flatiron
2. Flatson
3. Flatnash
4. Flat...(insert Chinese sound)

Thanks for the names fatt-dad

I am not bothered by this. I am original owner of two Flatirons (Montanta), and this does not change those individual instruments, which are not for sale anyway. There are only so many 1939 Martins and only so many specific period Flatirons.

So how do these Flatpacs sound anyway?

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## Ted Eschliman

> Who knows what the new line will be like but I feel quite confident in saying that the Chinese Flatirons won't be comparable in terms of tone, finish, playability, etc. to their older brothers and sisters. #Does anyone disagree with that assertion?


Yup. Guilty until proven innocent...

All this talk about how bad these instruments are going to be. WHO has tried one? News alert: there are some Chinese builders making lots of junk, but there are some making scary good product. And some continue to learn, get better and adapt to an "American" discretion of what is quality.

All this internet chatter, but can anybody reserve judgment until spending quality time with a Chinese Flatiron in their lap? Who has played one? That's who I will listen to.

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## Ken Sager

> The name lives on and on
> 
> 1. Flatiron
> 2. Flatson
> 3. Flatnash
> 4. Flat...(insert Chinese sound)
> 
> Thanks for the names fatt-dad
> 
> ...


Flatchin?
Flatjing?

Don't like? Don't buy.

Love to all,
Ken

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## mythicfish

"It's not just the name, obviously, but what the name represents."

The name represents a brand of mandolin that has been out of production for years. The fact that some folks have some "emotional relationship" to what is essentially a commodity/tool speaks to an aspect of the human psyche which resembles
a belief in superstition or magic; which plays a large part in traditional or "primative" societies in which folks define themselves by brand preference/ownership.



Curt

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## MikeEdgerton

> Who has played one? That's who I will listen to


Amen.

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## cooper4205

i think the OP has played one

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## mando_dan

[QUOTE]The name represents a brand of mandolin that has been out of production for years. The fact that some folks have some "emotional relationship" to what is essentially a commodity/tool speaks to an aspect of the human psyche which resembles
a belief in superstition or magic; which plays a large part in traditional or "primative" societies in which folks define themselves by brand preference/ownership.

Uh, thanks Curt. Interesting reply, but I'm not biting.

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## mando_dan

Ted, I respect you greatly (I'm a long long time lurker who finally signed up ) and guess you're right that I shouldn't have been to so quick to judge the new line. Who knows, maybe they will be a great lower priced mando... When I wrote I was thinking of the many imports I shuffled through over the years until I bought my used Flatiron. The price wasn't all that much more than the imports, but the instrument was on a whole another level. That's another story, but I'll chill (quit posting on this thread), enjoy what I have, and wait for the reviews to roll in. Thanks for the sanity check.

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## tiltman

I'm fairly ambivalent (sp?)...bugs me a little but there are other things in the world that bother me more.

If I owned a Flatiron I wouldn't worry about this diluting the brand. I own a vintage Fender Stratocaster (USA made) that I bought used (and cheap) in High School - yes, my High School years are now called vintage. Anyway, Fender moving Stratocaster building to Japan, Mexico, etc. has not hurt the value of this instrument - people know what it is.
(please don't think less of me - I don't actually play the electric instrument...just can't bring myself to part with it!)

Kirk

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## Chris Biorkman

> "It's not just the name, obviously, but what the name represents."
> 
> The name represents a brand of mandolin that has been out of production for years. The fact that some folks have some "emotional relationship" to what is essentially a commodity/tool speaks to an aspect of the human psyche which resembles
> a belief in superstition or magic; which plays a large part in traditional or "primative" societies in which folks define themselves by brand preference/ownership.
> 
> 
> 
> Curt


So what you are saying is that attachment to the mandolin leads to suffering? Buddha was right...

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## Ed Lutz

Hi everyone!
Interesting thread. Haven't read everything 'cause it's lengthy and I'm short on time for the moment. (Retired? -Go figure)
But if their new product sounds as good or better than my humble Gloucester, sign me up! I just know it won't be a deal like my Fullerton Gloucester. 
I like competition,(sp)? especially for us'n down here on the low end of the mandolin marketing food chain. If I ever get a chance to own a genuine Gibson or Flatiron I am going to be a happy dude if I can latch on to it. (or a Collings, or a Weber or a custom too)
Again, this is a very interesting topic!

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## pickinNgrinnin

[QUOTE] News alert: there are some Chinese builders making lots of junk, but there are some making scary good product. And some continue to learn, get better and adapt to an "American" discretion of what is quality.

Ted...I doubt anyone here will be drinking that much Cool Aid to convince themselves the the Chinese made Flatirons will be scary good. Look at what Gibson did to Epiphone.

I've seen and played a boatload of Chinese made Mandos and they are not in the same league as the Flatiron's made in Montana or Nashville.

So in this case, yes - guilty till proven innocent. Call me doubting Thomas

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## John Ritchhart

I played it Ted. As I said, it sounds OK for this range of product. I think it's going to be a great entry level F5. Gibson now has an inexpensive starter, the 9's, the F5G, and the Master Model line. All pointsd covered in the market.

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## cooper4205

jbrwky-

did it look like the typical import F5 (with the lumpy scroll, thick finish, etc.) or was it more along the lines of an Eastman F or a Kentucky KM-1000?

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## JEStanek

The Montana Flatiron's are still being made, more or less by Sound To Earth and the Weber line, right? Bruce Weber and his folks who opted to stay in Montana rather than go to Nashville made their own product out of what they learned from Flatiron, right?

If you take the prices on the Montana Flatirons new at the time of production and adjust for the same general inflation/increases in the mando market aren't similar Weber models right on where they would be if they retained the name?

Tone is tone and builders are builders. There's variability and evolution to designs and sounds over time. The new Chinese Flatiron may be a fine or not, the Original Poster, jbrwky, didn't report on playing one only seeing one in a Gibson booth. We don't know price, specs, model shape even from the OP.

We're into 2 pages on a siting and no real data on build quality (fit n finish) or sound. I can appreciate peoples concerns over the branding but do people really think this will decrease the value of their Montana, or Nashville Flatiron? When you go to sell it you list the year and frequently who even signed it, now you can add US Made and continue with the existing prices that have been received and hopefully trend upwards.

I'm with Ted, let the market decide, let some of us get their hands on one and give an unvarnished (ha!) report on it. The cat's outta the bag. Will it be lucky for Gibson or unfortunate? Time will tell.

Jamie

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## mandomick

> Originally Posted by  (mando_dan @ April 28 2007, 08:46)
> 
> Who knows what the new line will be like but I feel quite confident in saying that the Chinese Flatirons won't be comparable in terms of tone, finish, playability, etc. to their older brothers and sisters. #Does anyone disagree with that assertion?
> 
> 
> Yup. Guilty until proven innocent...
> 
> All this talk about how bad these instruments are going to be. WHO has tried one? News alert: there are some Chinese builders making lots of junk, but there are some making scary good product. And some continue to learn, get better and adapt to an "American" discretion of what is quality.
> 
> All this internet chatter, but can anybody reserve judgment until spending quality time with a Chinese Flatiron in their lap? Who has played one? That's who I will listen to.



I see very little of this thread devoted to "how bad " these instruments are going to be. Looks like 90+% is based on sentiment. To a biker it'd be like finding out that vintage Harleys will be reproduced over seas or a rifleman hearing that Winchester's Model 70 will now be imported.

I think it's more the sadness caused by seeing another part of American tradition leaving the country than the urge to bash imports.

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## Chip Booth

> I think it's more the sadness caused by seeing another part of American tradition leaving the country than the urge to bash imports.


Well said Mick. I am not worried that this move will devalue my Flatiron. #And my concern over Gibson using the name has nothing to do with the actual new Flatiron mandolins themsleves. #They may be great, or they may be just another cheap import, but regardless the Flatiron name has a rich history related to American craftmanship. #Gibson could have produced these under any name such as Epiphone, but clearly that name doesn't have much meaning any more, and they are hoping to attract buyers using the existing Flatiron reputation. #They could call them "Gibsons", but instead they protect the main company name and exploit the others they own. #Business is business and they are well within their rights to do whatever they want, but it doesn't sit well with me. #I don't like the fact that Epiphone was trashed either.

Jamie, I would say that Weber is not really a direct continuation of the Flatiron line. #They have changed many things. #I think they make a fine product, but it isn't the SAME product. 

Chip

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## MikeEdgerton

I work in an industry that has been basically destroyed by outsourcing. I could be bitter but I'm not. It is what it is. When you think of Flatiron think about Sylvania, GE, Westinghouse and a slew of other American brands that no longer manufacture anything in the US. A major portion of the GM "This is my country" pickup truck is manufactured overseas as are all American made automobiles. This is what the global economy is, good or bad. With that said be thankful there are mandolins still manufactured in this country. Beyond the slew of small builders you still have Collings, Weber, Breedlove, and Gibson (and anybody else I missed). You can also be thankful that there are decent pacrim mandolins being made that will allow you to enjoy the instrument even if you can't afford the US made mandolins.

What you are seeing just happens to belong to Gibson, it's not that unusual in the grand scheme of things. If you're angry about this get real angry about your Car, VCR and Microwave. Otherwise it's just Gibson bashing.

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## cooper4205

Mike-

i don't think its Gibson bashing if you don't agree. i have nothing against the Gibson or their mandolins, and some day when i'm in the market for a good F5, i'll give Gibson a look.

_"You can also be thankful that there are decent pacrim mandolins being made that will allow you to enjoy the instrument even if you can't afford the US made mandolins."_

i think the reason that people (mostly Flatiron owners) are talking about this is Flatiron represented a quality alternative to having to buy an imported mandolin, and i think that's what a lot of people will miss. the Flatiron gave you the chance to buy a well-made mandolin from the U.S. for not too much money. i think the A5-Jr. went for around $700 new back before the Gibson buyout, which was less than the highest end Kentucky's (or other imports) of the time that would have been the import alternative

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## Chip Booth

Mike, I think one difference here is that Gibson is resurrecting a brand name, not just outsourcing an existing product. Also I admit I have an emotional attachment to my instrument that I do not have to my microwave. But your point is valid, and I expect a lot of Ford owners may have felt the same way. In this case I would be bashing whoever owned the Flatiron name, it's not just because it's Gibson.

Chip

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## Bill Van Liere

Copper, I paid $380.00 less the case for my A5-JR in 1984. Then, and still a great value, which will be a tough act to follow. Good luck with that one.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Mike, I think one difference here is that Gibson is resurrecting a brand name, not just outsourcing an existing product.


Basically that's what all of the manufacturers mentioned have done. Once you get beyond the emotions it's really no different than any other consumer product. Worst case we'll start seeing bumper stickers that say "Friends don't let friends buy Flatirons".

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## JEStanek

Looks like I missed the post by jbrky (posted while I was composing mine I guess) where he spelled out $800, F5 that sounded fine for that price range.

And Chip, I'll leave it to those who have played both Flatirons and Webers (I've only played a Weber) to compare but I'll take your word for them being different. I didn't mean to imply that they were identical. Just that Weber's had the Flatiron as a starting point. Bruce continues to refine his line (as we've seen this spring).

It will be interesting to learn more about these and where they will be marketed.

Jamie

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## jk245

If anything, with the right price, decent quality looks and sound, and Gibson's marketing ability,
the new line will bring more mando players. 
The only thing that I worry about is that this message board will be over the top with new members and Scott will have to get a bigger server. 
New players will bring new (MAS) business to Gibson, other makers, and the Mando-Cafe classifieds, when these new players 'step up' to other models.

IMO, without anyone having played the new instruments I think this topic has run out of steam.

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## Hal Loflin

I am at Merlefest and took the following pictures this afternoon. First let me say that I am not going to attempt to "fuel the fire" in this post...just provide some pictures and my hopefully unbiased opinion.

I did not get a chance to play it due to having to work a stage assignment but I did listen to a very talented young man wear it our for about five minutes.

This mandolin is not at a Gibson booth but an independant booth. They told me that this one is a prototype and that they have them on order but do not know when they will get them. It has the identical Flatiron tailpiece engraving as well as the headstock as the original Flatirons but the label on the inside says Ephiphone and the white sticker pictured on the back of the headstock says "Made in China".

The sound and tone was good but it seemed to not have the punch of other higher priced mandolins. The finish is perfect and it has all of the trimmings of the original Flatiorn Artist. Binding on both sides and neck. The pickguard still had the plastic on it so that is why it appears the way it does in the pictures. The set up was just about as good as it gets though and it is probably worth the $799 they are asking.

One more thing...I owned an imaculate 80's Montana Flatiron Artist and side-by-side thay are comparable. The weight in my hands seemed lighter than the one I owned and it appears to be a fine mandolin for that price range.

Now my personal opinion...It sort of made me sad that what we treasured as an outstanding American made, recognized by the mandolin community, mandolin has been replicated to fit a competitive market that is very present in today's mandolin market. But I can understand a company wanting to capitalize on the name...they are in the business of making money and that drives a lot of other markets other than just mandolins. Those of you that are traditionlist please don't crucify me because of my comments. I own a wonderful custom Weber Yellowstone and have driven Fords for over 20 years and would have loved to see the Flatiron return just as we all knew it. Personally I feel that this will probably add value to the Montana and Gibson Flatirons that Bruce Weber was a part of but only time will tell.

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## Hal Loflin

Picture #2

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## Hal Loflin

Picture #3

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## Hal Loflin

Picture #3 (Sorry...)

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## Hal Loflin

and #4 (last one)

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## John Ritchhart

coops- It has a balanced look. Not lumpy, not ugly. The color was ash blond with dark edging. Different but nice in it's own way.

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## John Ritchhart

[QUOTE]This mandolin is not at a Gibson booth but an independant booth. 
Are you kidding me? I ask this Tom Evans where the Gibson booth was and he said this is it! I asked him if Big Joe was around and he said he didn't make it this year. Are you saying this guy Evans is not a Gibson employee? Big Joe are you there?

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## Hal Loflin

Not kidding jbrwky...I don't know who Tom Evans is but I went to the Gibson trailer that is outside the Expo tent and talked with them. I asked it they had mandolins and the guy told me that ***(I don't want to mention the distributor)*** had Gibson mandolins on display in the Expo tent. 

I then went to their booth and they are a Gibson distributor and sell many other "non-GIbson" produts. So my interpretation was that this was not an/the official Gibson booth but an independant business that is selling Gibsons and had a Flatiron prototype for sale. So compared to the Fender/Guild booth, the Eastman booth, the Taylor booth, the Gallagher booth, etc., I did not see this as Gibson's area where they were displaying their instruments.

Just my perception...

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## allenhopkins

OK, OK, I'm a grouch, curmudgeon, dinosaur, whatever you want to call me -- BUT --

Epiphone instruments as sold now bear damn little resemblance to those that Epi Stathopoulo used to craft, and not much resemblance to the "nearly a Gibson" line that used to come out of the Kalamazoo factory. Obviously, people who know something about instruments are aware that the modern imported Epis aren't comparable. But the reason the "Epiphone" label is on each of the modern low-end instruments, is to evoke some relationship to the first-class instruments of the past. Otherwise, they could be called "Thudpucker" or "Yangtze" or whatever.

I think it's probably a good thing that Gibson's importing a line of decent instruments to fill the gap between the Epis and the least expensive Gibsons. Look at Martin, for heaven's sake: they've covered so many bases, from plastic guitars with Felix the Cat on them to ornate limited editions, that almost anyone with a few hundred bucks can end up with a product of America's most prestigous guitar company. (How prestigous that particular product is, I leave others to evaluate.)

But it still bothers me that these new imports are called "Flatiron." They have nothing to do with the Flatiron Co., other than that Gibson bought the company, absorbed it, and retained rights to the name. Maybe they're built to Flatiron specs, maybe not. There is a certain basic disingenuousness in evoking a respected name, to trademark an unrelated product line.

And I don't buy the argument that "everybody knows the difference" between the old Flatiron and the new. If "everybody" knew, and discounted the possibility of a relationship between old and new, there'd be no purpose in putting the "Flatiron" label on the new products. Might as well call them "Thudpucker" or "Yangtze..."

So, whatever the merits or demerits of the new imported instruments, I just wish they'd called them something else.

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## MandoChop

I agree Gibson's made money at buying out the competition and sending it packing. I'm not knocking Gibson as Gibson has garnered plenty of respect with high quality mandolins and arch top guitars. One day I might purchase an F5 when I'm done w/ investing in retirement and kid stuff (priorities kind of thing). Until then, it's import city for me. Does it devalue an American made Flatiron when new ones are made in China? Unfortunately, quality of tone and status of an instrument is often based subjectively upon who and where the manufacturer is. Japan makes and has made fine instruments that will likely never reach the level of recognition/price/respect American made products are able to command.

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## John Ritchhart

OK thanks smyrnagc, The Gibson representation was disjointed and in several locations. Mostly I just wanted to meet Big Joe and was disappointed he hadn't made it this year. Someday I'll get up to Nashville and meet him.

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## manicmando

i played the Epi Flatiron sat at merle fest its not a Gibson by no means thats why its got Epi inside it right? It doesnt compare to the Eastmans or Kentuckys or even the MK's ive played

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## MikeEdgerton

> I agree Gibson's made money at buying out the competition and sending it packing


I don't think that Gibson bought Flatiron to send the competition packing. I think they bought them because they were making better mandolins at the time and Gibson wanted to get their quality back up to that level. I may be wrong but it appears that the competition eventually got back in the game after the obvious required period of time that was specified in the sales contract.

I think if they really wanted to send the competition packing they would have bought Fender, JMHO.

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## fatt-dad

Flatiron (pre-1987)
Flatson (Montana, post-1987)
Nash-Flatson (Nashville, c. 1998)
New-Nash-Flatson (there was that F4 prototype a year or so ago)
CFM (Chinese Flatiron Mandolin - not to be confused with Charles F. Martin).

At least JVC (the Japanese Victor Corporation) had the tact to change the name of RCA Victor when they bought the company and moved production to Japan. I bought one and it was a great TV!

f-d

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## MikeEdgerton

> CFM (Chinese Flatiron Mandolin - not to be confused with Charles F. Martin)


Is it OK to confuse it with Christian Frederick Martin?

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## Walter

huh?

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## fatt-dad

my bad - I just like his guitars. . . .

f-d

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## Chip Booth

F-D, the Flatiron Archive is now more important than ever!

Chip

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## fatt-dad

> F-D, the Flatiron Archive is now more important than ever!
> 
> Chip


I keep collecting photos. I've even added several hundred photos (about) to the database. I really need to get some work on the web pages, though. . . . 

All in good time. One day, www.flatironarchive.com will come alive!

f-d

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## MikeEdgerton

> my bad - I just like his guitars


Me too, only I had to sell four of them to pay for my mandolin.

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## Hal Loflin

Hey Flat Dad...oh excuse me...my finger must have hit the L.

Did you add the FlatEpi to your archive? This might be a barometer test for what is and what truely is not a Flatiron... 

"Just poking fun at cha"...

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## Tom C

It seems Gibson is just putting the "Flatiron" name on Epiphone mandos for prototype and these new mandos will be built(or maybe just the assembly) in China.

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## bradeinhorn

I think I like "The Flatiphone".

Kind of missed out on the fun of this thread since the initial replies...

C'mon fellers. Each individual mandolin should be judged on its own merits, not the maker's reputation, not even the particular model's reputation. #This is especially true as the maker's business gets larger. I have played a lot of US made flatirons. Some are individually awesome, some are good, some I found to be kind of bland. If I was in the market for one, I would play it, see how it feels and sounds and choose whether to buy it or not regardless of the signed builder, location of factory, corporate status, or even, gasp, nation of origin.

I really don't see the big deal here. ALL MANDOLIN MAKERS - be they a corporation as big as Gibson or individual luthiers - are IN BUSINESS to make money. Yes, bigger businesses purchase smaller ones and get to use the tradenames for those purchases. they can do what they want with them. period. how would you feel if you bought a mandolin and someone told you that you could only play death metal on it? If you are anything like me, you'd probably be pretty angry that someone was restricting your legal rights. though we might get some pretty interesting additions to the mp3 section....

We need to just pick up mandolins and make individual opinions on the unique instruments themselves more and let the lawyers and marketing departments do what they feel they need to do. Flatiron mandolin owners - be happy with what you have. If anything, your instruments have probably increased in value. Discriminating purchasers and players will most definately know the difference. The flatirion company has been for all and intents and purposes done for years. Think of these new ones as a tribute album or band -(appreciably good intentions but probably no chance of being as good as the original version).

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## Ed Lutz

bradeinhorn,

this is a great post! Amen

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## Tighthead

> they can do what they want with them. period. how would you feel if you bought a mandolin and someone told you that you could only play death metal on it?


Not to be confrontational, but I don't think anyone in this whole long discussion has suggested that Gibson or anyone else should be legally prohibited from making Flatiron mandolins in China. No one will dispute that Gibson CAN make Flatirons in China or Mozambique if they want to.

Most of the discussion centers around the question of whether Gibson "should" make Flatiron-branded mandolins in China. That's a different question.

My guess is most people who don't like the idea have the feeling that it's just another little tiny piece of American culture that's become meaningless. Happens a lot these days. Some will say "get over it," others will say "it's too bad when that happens."

Personally, there's just something that makes me uncomfortable about the idea. My hope is that some American company figures out a way to make mandolins that compete with the Chinese imports in price, quality, and availability.

Milan

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## fatt-dad

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I look at this thread in that light.

f-d

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## Keith Erickson

> Originally Posted by  (mando_dan @ April 28 2007, 08:46)
> 
> Who knows what the new line will be like but I feel quite confident in saying that the Chinese Flatirons won't be comparable in terms of tone, finish, playability, etc. to their older brothers and sisters. #Does anyone disagree with that assertion?
> 
> 
> Yup. Guilty until proven innocent...
> 
> All this talk about how bad these instruments are going to be. WHO has tried one? News alert: there are some Chinese builders making lots of junk, but there are some making scary good product. And some continue to learn, get better and adapt to an "American" discretion of what is quality.
> 
> All this internet chatter, but can anybody reserve judgment until spending quality time with a Chinese Flatiron in their lap? Who has played one? That's who I will listen to.


*...and after 4 pages of reading doom and gloom, it's great to read an intelligent post on this subject.*

I'm sorry but maybe I should take my pacrim and hang out in the corner like a geek at a prom. 

For now it's the only dependable mandolin that I can afford

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## bradeinhorn

> Most of the discussion centers around the question of whether Gibson "should" make Flatiron-branded mandolins in China. That's a different question.
> 
> My guess is most people who don't like the idea have the feeling that it's just another little tiny piece of American culture that's become meaningless. Happens a lot these days. Some will say "get over it," others will say "it's too bad when that happens."


Flatiron sold out to gibson - it was their decision whether or not to be bought out. It's not like gibson swept into the flatiron workshop and comandeered the place...

Again-a business decision. 

So - "should terms"

Should Gibson profit off the good will name of a brand they own. Yes....with an emphatic "Duh". That is one of the biggest reasons they bought it.

Additionally, I think it is totally silly and hypocritical to complain about this now when they were bought out several years ago. The little piece of American culture known as The Flatiron Company was swallowed up years ago. luckily many of their mandolins live on for our enjoyment. As for the new ones, time will tell if they are worth it or not. Clearly there is more demand right now for solid entry level mandolins in the a-5 and f-5 style. Maybe they will fill that gap as Eastman has. As for an American company beating that price point, unfortunately, I feel that is a bit of a dream scenario....

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## Ken Berner

I just got home from MerleFest and am the bearer of sad news for Flatiron (real Flatiron) enthusiasts. There is a new Flatiron F made in China, available. It is made of all solid woods and right out of the box sounded better to my old ears than the top Eastmans I played (not 10 minutes before), but that is all I can say for the sound. Fit and finish looked OK and for about $800 it is not a bad deal at all. I don't have any specs, as the dealer didn't have any particulars. I guess Big Joe will have to fill us in, now that the cat is out of the bag.

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## Dan Adams

We citizens of the United States are an odd lot? Generally we continue to request high quality goods, want an affordable price point, but will not support US Industry that has a higher production cost, therefore a higher cost to the consumer. We then complain about outsourcing to achieve exactly what we request; high quality at an affordable price point. Not that this is right or wrong, it's just the way it is with the vast majority of imported products. If a US company makes decisions to supply what we demand, than what options are there? I agree with 'mandohack', the quality of the product will be a determining factor with these mandolins, much like it is with any other product we import. I'm willing to wait and see the outcome of a business decision. Just and observation. Dan

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## 8ch(pl)

I'd be happy if the line included their Pancake at a decent price. Might even buy one.

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## Tighthead

> As for an American company beating that price point, unfortunately, I feel that is a bit of a dream scenario....


That I agree with. And I'm sorry it has to be so. 

It's not a big emotional thing for me. Just an opinion.

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## Mikey G

Think of these new ones as a tribute album or band -(appreciably good intentions but probably no chance of being as good as the original version). 

Here, Here!

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## EdSherry

The way I see it, Gibson is trying to market a model line that will fit that "middle" range between the Epiphone (and its competition) and the Gibson US-made products. #

They elected to use the Flatiron brand name (which they bought fair and square, then retired) on the new line, presumably to differentiate it from both Epiphone and Gibson. #

Maybe they'll be competitive (on a price-performance basis) with the Eastmans; we'll have to see. #But they have the prospect of filling a "niche" that Gibson currently doesn't serve.

Personally, I was more disappointed when Gibson started using the venerable old Epiphone name on its (lower-end) imported stuff than I am that they're using the Flatiron name on the (middle-range) imported stuff. #

And that's from a proud owner of one of the very first Flatiron F-5s that I bought from Mandolin Brothers back in 1985, which is still one of the finest instruments I've ever heard. #(When I bought mine, they had two Loar F-5s in stock; mine blew both of them away.)

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## fatt-dad

> We citizens of the United States are an odd lot?


Amen to that! A person changes their mind and they are a hypocrite (heck it's their mind can't they do what they want with it?). But corporate policy can just go with the money? Sure it's a person's right to change their mind and it's a right of corporate America to follow the money, but it's just fair and reasonable to discuss both of these processes.

I trust that the new CFM will be a fine instrument.

fatt I'm-really-not-bitter-but-enjoying-the-discussion dad

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## bgmando

I hate it, it triggers emotions deep within related not only to my '83 Flatiron pancake and my wonderful '84 Flatiron F-5 -- but also how corporate suits will cheapen anything to make a buck.

  Including a fine luther brand name that many of us who actually own and play them hold dear.

  This stinks.

  I feel sorry for Gibson luthiers who perform their labor of love under the callous thumb of greedy American and Chinese business managers.

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## mythicfish

I really don't see the reason for all this wailing and gnashing of teeth. How can we feel sorry for ourselves when we have the best government that money can buy?

Curt

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## MikeEdgerton

> I feel sorry for Gibson luthiers who perform their labor of love under the callous thumb of greedy American and Chinese business managers.


Ok, that's just silly. If you have a job you're laboring under the same "callous thumb". Look around your house. Do you have any imported appliances, tools, clothing, automobiles? Think about what you're saying here. What makes Gibson the bad guys?

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## Michael H Geimer

Ya' know ... If people didn't have an emotional attachment to the name Flatiron, Gibson would not be using that brand name. Seems odd to tell folks to "hush up" about what Gibson is doing, when in fact the emotional element of the Flatiron name is precisely what they hope to leverage.

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## MikeEdgerton

OK, so let's assume that everyone at Gibson is being squashed by the greedy thumb of Gibson management. Why are they still there performing their labors of love? Probably because they are not being squashed by the greedy thumb of Gibson management. I'm assuming the folks that work for Gibson are a smart lot that could simply pick themselves up and take themselves elswhere for employment. To assume they are being mistreated is, well, silly. They make a choice to go to work each day and personally I'm thankful they do. 

To rant and rave about this venerable brand being moved to the far east is a bit silly as well as long as you are still buying imported products for use in the other parts of your life. You didn't start ranting an raving soon enough, the horse is out of the barn. 

Now, if you tell me that this is the straw that broke the camel's back and you're fed up with all of this manufacturing being sent overseas and here is where you're taking your stand then I'm with you. I'll say it's about time. But if all were doing is bashing Gibson and not worrying about what else we buy that's imported then it doesn't have a whole lot of value.

As consumers you do have the ultimate power.

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## Michael H Geimer

... and a lot of that power comes from conversations among consumers. This is not a silly discussion at all. Maybe it's futile, and Gibson cares not a whit for our opinions, but it's not silly to talk about behavior we like and dislike in a corporation.

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## Chip Booth

Mike, you can take comfort in the fact that won't be buying an imported Flatiron. Again, I don't have much emotional attachment to my toaster, so it's hard to get too excited by those brands being outsourced.

Curt, wasn't it you that said you don't put stickers on your mandolin case because "I don't advertise my "preferences" -political or otherwise- in public"? I'm not disagreeing with your statement, just saying...

I think Fatt-Dad said it best here: "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

Chip

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## MikeEdgerton

> ... and a lot of that power comes from conversations among consumers


That's not where the power comes from at all. Discusions don't change corporations, money does. Your ultimate power is to not buy a product from a company.

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## Michael H Geimer

People come here all the time asking for advice on their purchases, so discussion is clearly part of the free market equation. It often steers the money. Viral Marketing relies on the idea that peer discussion can alter purchasing decisions. We can disagree on the amount of influence, but I don't think the effect can be denied.

Edit to add: My gripe is not with the PRC (at least on this issue ... pet food is a whole 'nuther thing right now) producing mandolins. Rather, I don't think any company should capitalize on a reputation they did not earn themselves. We would generally condemn that sort of behavior in a person, and I say the same goes for a company.

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## fatt-dad

I really don't care if Mr. Clean is made in the USA or China. Some commodity products can be made wherever and it just doesn't affect me. I with Benignus, there is an exploitable emotional attachment and Gibson knows what they are doing. The fact I don't like it is one side of this discussion. After all, this is a discussion forum. . . . . 

f-d

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## DryBones

At the least they could have taken the manufacturing to S.Korea and helped out an Ally instead of giving more trade inbalance to China. (stirring the pot, sorry folks  )

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## bradeinhorn

> Rather, I don't think any company should capitalize on a reputation they did not earn themselves. We would generally condemn that sort of behavior in a person, and I say the same goes for a company.


This happens all the time uncondemned. I don't really see why it should be. "Good Will" value is established when businesses are bought and sold, and this value is often the main reason for purchasing another business. To call it unearned is not really correct. Gibson paid good, hard earned money and for that, Flatiron gave up the right to its name. (Remember when Bart sells his soul to Millhouse?). The same connection can be made to other intagible assets, like patent and copyright. These properties are sold all the time and someone other than the inventor or artist profit of the royalties. Michael Jackson and the Beatles is a populat example.

You make an interesting observation:

"If people didn't have an emotional attachment to the name Flatiron, Gibson would not be using that brand name. Seems odd to tell folks to "hush up" about what Gibson is doing, when in fact the emotional element of the Flatiron name is precisely what they hope to leverage."

This is great and totally encompasses this whole thread perfectly. Certainly this plan was a long time in the making for Gibson, and with so much fervor around the Flatiron name years later and the market conditions for a solid entry level instrument producers, the time is right to capitalize on their ownership of the flatiron name. I say power to them.

And why is no one angry with Flatiron??? Interesting how the we've made the instrument into such an emotional object when all along it's parents sold it down the river in the first place when the price was right.

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## Michael H Geimer

> To call it unearned is not really correct. Gibson paid good, hard earned money and for that ...


LOL It sounds great when you put it that way!

Unearned, I say! Anyone with the cash can buy a PHD from an off-shore university, too. Doesn't mean they earned a doctorate. This is no different.

 - Benignus ... with a PHD in posting-too-much!

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## bradeinhorn

> Unearned, I say! Anyone with the cash can buy a PHD from an off-shore university, too. Doesn't mean they earned a doctorate. This is no different.
> 
>  - Benignus ... with a PHD in posting-too-much!


wait a second -for someone who makes some great points, you are now just being silly - that last post sounds like the ramblings of an ex-patriot offshore university professor in a hawaiin shirt and flip flops....

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## cooper4205

> And why is no one angry with Flatiron??? Interesting how the we've made the instrument into such an emotional object when all along it's parents sold it down the river in the first place when the price was right.


they were threatened by a lawsuit from Gibson and sold rather than face litigation

see steve stone's post on this thread

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## Crowder

The real business risk for Gibson is the probability that the Chinese-made instruments will sound better and be more consistent than the entry-level instruments they make in Nashville.

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## MikeEdgerton

> they were threatened by a lawsuit from Gibson and sold rather than face litigation


If that was the case why are there so many F copies still being made? None of these small builders could survive a protracted legal battle with a major corporation. I suspect there might be more to that story.

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## bradeinhorn

> they were threatened by a lawsuit from Gibson and sold rather than face litigation
> 
> see steve stone's post on this thread


ok.....checked it out ....

and yeah-no one ever really provided much information on this "threatened lawsuit" - care to elaborate on that one a bit? sounds a bit defamatory.

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## PCypert

It looks cheap in the pictures. With so many wonderful folks building small shop stuff and the new Breedlove FF fitting the lower end price nicely there's not a drop of interest in these for me. Then again I'd rather buy a Mid Mo than an Eastman any day...and I have no US love (I am proud to come from the US but am just as proud to live in Thailand now) influencing my decision...just have played both and the MidMo feels more solid. 

It's an interesting debate though. There are lazy, sloppy bulders and workers in the states. I've seen plenty of inconsistent instruments off the lot from major builders in guitars and mandolins. I've picked up 3K+ Taylors that were rubbish. I've played a Blueridge that had amazing sound for the dollar (but looked so cheap and cheesy). I've seen Webers that need tons of setup work before they play well same as any Chinese made instrument. I'll buy the one that plays well and has style. 

I was actually just thinking of bringing a builder over here to Thailand. We have a bunch of teenage boys that have been rescued from the street. We've got a loan to help them develop some type of business. Was thinking of having them make pancake mandolins to sell. They are currently making handi crafts (a little too feminine for my tastes) and have an attention to detail I don't have. I'd rather have a mandolin made in Thailand from those guys than one made in the US from me  and they need the money and jobs WAY more than someone in the US. 

Paul

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## cooper4205

i'm not trying to start an argument or anything here, i should have explained a little better. 

 I'm not stating its a fact that litigation was threatened, but I don't think statements like they sold when the price was right are completely true, either. truth is, neither of us knows why Flatiron was sold, so both of us are most likely wrong somewhere in our assessment of the situation. 

I don't harbor any ill will towards Gibson for moving the operation overseas, I still like their mandolins and glad they do what they do as far as mandolins are concerned. In the grand scheme of things, I know its not that big of a deal.

It just that Flatiron used to represent a reasonably priced, quality instrument that was handmade with the same attention to detail and sound as more expensive mandolins. 

I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would agree that imported instruments are consistently as good or better than those that are hand made in the the U.S. (or Europe, Japan or Australia) that are built in a small shop environment. 

I'm not saying that an instrument is automatically good if its handmade or from the U.S. (or the places mentioned above); its just more likely that it will be better than one that was built in a factory.

Regardless of why the company was sold, Flatirons were a good option for people wanting to upgrade to a handmade mandolin without breaking the bank and it stinks that option is gone. that's my opinion and we may have to agree to disagree.

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## JeffS

Gibson has to compete to stay in business and they can't do that selling a small number of $5000+ instruments a year. They need to move product that is cheaper to make and that can be mass produced in order to support the high end business. If they don't then they either fold or their biggest competitor, Yamaha, buys them. I don't blame them at all for using the Flatiron brand for a quality import. Personally I'd rather see them produced somewhere other than China because of human rights issues. Korea or Mexico come to mind.   

I think you guys with original Flatirons should be happy you have an original. They'll probably go up in value, especially if the import line is successful.

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## bradeinhorn

cooper-flatiron was sold to gibson for the same reason every other company is acquired. both parties negotiated to an agreed upon price and then when one was reached, the transaction took place. you are self-admittedly arguing with emotion instead of facts. i hear your frustration about the lack of quality upgrades for a reasonable price but that is not the fault of gibson - if anything- the a-9 is one of the best values in this market. all i'm saying is think about both players in the scenario and think about the state of the market before all blame is put on the large corporate company.

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## MikeEdgerton

> It just that Flatiron used to represent a reasonably priced, quality instrument that was handmade with the same attention to detail and sound as more expensive mandolins.


Until you see the actual production instruments you can't say that this will not be the end result of Gibson's current action.

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## Michael H Geimer

> ex-patriot offshore university professor in a hawaiin shirt and flip flops....


bradeinhorn, yea I was being a bit silly (mostly, in order to keep a friendly tone) but that whole south-of-the-border-ex-pat lifestyle isn't too far from my real dreams.

Thanks for truly getting most of my points. I think at heart there is a basic disagreement about what constitutes ethical business. Plenty of people would consider that an oxymoron (ethical business), but that's a slippery slope.

Reliable honest branding is something consumers absolutely need, akin to accurate labeling. If a brand is not honest, what does it stand for? Are brands nothing more than logos at this point? Hardly. Brand Managers know exactly what they are doing when they leverage Good WIll value, trouble is none of us are speaking up loud enough, and we losing our ability to judge value based on the brand.

What created the Good Will value of the Flatiron name? Does that source still exist? If so, then everything is kosher. If not, then Gibson is pulling a fast one marketing-wise. Fake-it till you make it, so to speak.

The way I see it, there is practically no connection at all between the factory, employees, and instrument that created the Good WIll value and the current import version. This is partly because the new Flats aren't out in the world being played and reviewed by the public. In that sense they have not had the chance to build up their own value, on their own merits.

Gibson knows this, and so they 'up' their chances of a successful product launch by using the Good Will value they legally own. It's legal, but it's still a fast one, and at its heart it breaks down the value of branding in general.

Do a lot of companies do this? Yes. So what. A lot of people do a lot of lousy things, and we can't make laws against everything. This is an issue to be settle in the public, just like this (though we won't settle anything in this thread).

I think I'm done. Time to actually work on some ... Brand Redesigns!

 - Benig

AFAIK: Mr. Clean is still made in the U.S.A. (but that is a different side of my account, so I don't actually deal with El Señor Limpido)

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## MikeEdgerton

> Mr. Clean is still made in the U.S.A.


And still owned by a USA company by the way, unlike some other major cleaning brands. I don't recommend using Mr. Clean on your made in the USA mandolin by the way. It works fine on most imports.

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## Jonathan James

Here's a related question: How much might the Nashville-made Flatirons appreciate in the wake of this news, let alone the Montana-built Flatirons?

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## EdSherry

A bit of a thread shift: #

This is not the first time that Gibson's management has done something that makes sense to them but makes little sense to others. #

In particular, their decision to limit the sales of Gibson mandolins and b*nj*s to only those dealers who would agree to carry the full line of instruments, rather than stocking what the dealers thought they would be able to sell, led a number of fine dealers (Gryphon in Palo Alto, CA comes to mind) to drop their Gibson dealerships rather than "knucke under" to Gibson's new "full-line forcing" policy.

The result? #Look at the map of Gibson's OAI dealerships:

http://www.gibson.com/Product....r%20Map

ONE dealer in California, but none in Northern California; ONE dealer in Texas; one in the Florida panhandle, but none in the rest of Florida; none in the Rocky Mtns or plains states. #

Makes you wonder what Gibson's management is thinking. #At least I can understand them trying to get some value out of the Flatiron "brand," however much that disconcerts those of us with fond memories of the "old" Flatiron company and its instruments. 

Maybe they're trying to develop a product line of higher-quality instruments than the Epiphones that they can sell to "regular" (non-OAI) Gibson dealers without undercutting their OAI "exclusive" dealer network.

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## Ken Berner

Interesting question, Mr. Boone. In corresponding with Mary Weber of Sound To Earth a few days back, I mentioned the China-made instruments to her. Her reply speaks volumes to me of the skills and dedication of a very few American luthiers, turning out a product so superior to that of a giant corporation (that the giant couldn't wait to buy the little company). Here is what Mary wrote, "Well, you know, to Bruce and I (and several people here), FLATIRON means the memory of a "little red shop of 10 people and an exacting boss named Steve Carlson". Those fine FLATIRON instruments built in Montana under Steve Carlson and Bruce Weber will continue to speak of that quality with their own voices, regardless of the value placed upon them. I am blessed to own two of them.

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## JEStanek

Frankly, I doubt the advent of the new Flatiron line will have much of an impact on the Montana or Nashville Flatirons unless people try and jack the prices out of sentimentality. No more Montana or Nashville Flatirons will be made (well at least Montana ones!). Their value on the market has been determined and will appreciate over time due to their quality and supply in the market.

To expect them to radically increase or decrease based on the new line is odd to me... nothing has changed about the older instruments. If there is a chage I expect it to be short lived and return to their expected levels within a month or two of all of this.

Did the value of older American made Washburns change signifigantly when Washburn branded mandolins came out of Asia?

Jamie

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## bgmando

I think the financial value of my two early '80s Flatirons will stay the same, or more likley, drop in value.

  Gibson churned out some lower quality Flatirons compared to the Carlson years.

  Now the quality likely drops even more. The one in the photo looks terrible to me in terms of finish.

  Mandolin experts will appreciate early Flatirons and buy them. But the average pickers will consider them run of the mill imports.
  If Gibson wants to build mandos in China. Ok. 
  Too bad they're not creative enough to think up their own name.

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## Michael H Geimer

> ... unlike some other major cleaning brands.


Same folks who make Mr. Clean make a whole mess of cleaning products. Mr. Clean is the exception, I work on many of Clorox's other cleaning products. They are not immune from the pressures of globalization, but they try their best to work with domestic sources, and especially local vendors. They are a good community servant, IMO.

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## testore

Crowder makes a very fine observation. And I have to agree with PCypert. I think it looks kinda ###### too. The market will ALWAYS treat this stuff as it should...a cheaper product. Take the Fender electric guitar market for instance.The have stuff made for them from all over the world and they are all priced differently.All of the Pacrim products will be heaped together in one catagory like they should be.It's been going on in the violin market for about 300 years.

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## delsbrother

Fatt-Dadd needs to add the Capslock models to his timeline...

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## MandoGordon

As someone who used to work for Eastman and had a hand in putting them on the map this news is not suprising at all. I am amazed that Gibson allowed Eastman to dominate that end of the market for so long. Gibson has the wherewithal to give my old friends a real run for their money and from what I'm hearing they are doing just that with these "Flatirons". 

It gives me some satisfaction that people are no longer dismissing chinese product since I was told over and over that there was no demand for a high quality chinese f-style mandolin in the US market and that the serious american mando player was so loyal to his brand that he could not be persuaded to part with his hard earned cash for anything with a made in china sticker on it. That was a little over 5 years ago, things have certainly changed. I don't see anyone here predicting that these instruments will be unsellable. Let's face reality here, people consult their wallets more than their hearts and their ears (sadly)when they make a purchase (not to mention in most cases their wives). If you put a good sounding, great playing instrument out there for a hundred bucks and called it the George Bush model it would sell like hotcakes (pun)even though some die hard enthusiasts in Texas might object to the use of the name. # 

 #
Joking aside, I would be very nervous if I still worked at Eastman methinks,
Gordon

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## MikeEdgerton

> Same folks who make Mr. Clean make a whole mess of cleaning products


I'm familiar with them. In a previous life I owned a trucking company that was the house carrier for another major national brand of household cleaners that was purchased by a company from the UK. I don't recommend using their products on any mandolin either.

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## otterly2k

[/QUOTE]If you put a good sounding, great playing instrument out there for a hundred bucks and called it the George Bush model it would sell like hotcakes [QUOTE]

I think that already happened...and look at the results...

  

...sorry, couldn't resist.

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## chip

Wow,I can't believe the outcry over a company trying to gain marketshare and grow. Who cares, just play your mandolin and let the companies be profitable. The value of your Flatirons is only going to increase anyway. geez

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## Jim Broyles

This thread has evidenced a phenomenon I have noticed and largely overlooked during my time as a Mandolin Cafe member. 
There seems to be a mystical reverence, an almost sacrosanct aspect to everything "generic mandolin" and an equal and opposite irreverence or out and out disdain for everything "certain mandolins." For example, if someone posts an audio clip of him/herself abusing a mandolin there will be gushing over it. If someone posts the umpteen-hundredth picture of a quilted back or a flawless headstock binding, it will be the prettiest mandolin someone ever saw. If a clip of any esteemed pro is posted, the inevitable "coaxing tone out of a (insert the name of your favorite inanimate, dense wooden object)" posts will appear. The best example is the Grisman playing an Eastman clip. The mandolin's tone in that clip is not very good, but the hyperbolic descriptions defied logic. It led me to conclude that some folks hear tone with their heart. If someone posts a picture of a truly silly looking accessory, made by a cafe member or a friend of a cafe member, it will be gushed over for two reasons - one, it's on a mandolin, thereby rendering it unassailable, and two, a Cafe member provided it, rendering it the work of a community member which must be supported. The exception to this rule is that if a weird looking mandolin is listed on eBay, no holds are barred. Let 'er rip. Folks, sometimes the emperor has no clothes.
And now, the name of Flatiron, which essentially ceased to exist when the company was sold, will be attached to an Asian import. Get over it. Enjoy your original Flatirons. Enjoy your Gibson Flatirons. Don't buy an Asian Flatiron if you don't want to. But Don't have the silly notion that just because a brand has a sentimental history, it is required to remain unchanged in perpetuity.

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## fatt-dad

> This thread has evidenced a phenomenon I have noticed and largely overlooked during my time as a Mandolin Cafe member.


It's a phenomenon that you've notice, but others may be noticing something different. I liken social discussions (whether on the internet or a cocktail party) as requiring social decorum. When you see somebody's newborn, you say s/he's beautiful, whether it is your true feeling or not (reminds me of a Seinfield show). I'm not sure you get the purpose of this discussion if your reply is to "get over it". I doubt that's how you'd reply at a cocktail party if somebody was discussing the new style of a Corvette. . . .

I'm fully aware that Gibson can do what they want and I have an emotional reaction to the new Flatiron. One way to deal with emotional reactions is to discuss them. I guess if you don't want the discussion, you can reply to other threads.

f-d

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## Jim Broyles

f-d, my point is that the emotional attachment to "Flatiron" is borderline irrational, because THAT Flatiron was gone when Gibson bought the brand. Today's VW Beetle bears no real resemblance to the bug we all loved in the 60's. Today's Ford Mustang has little to do with the 64-1/2 classic, and if these two cars were discontinued, any nostalgic lamentation of their demise would be irrational. The original Mustang and Bug have long ceased to exist. Same for the Flatiron mandolin.

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## thistle3585

Several years ago a company built a small, singlehanded sailboat that was designed for kids who didn't have the upper body strength to sail the bigger singlehanders. Then they built a little bit larger boat, then another and another and eventually ended up building two olympic class boats.

The point is, that they kept their "customers" in the family. They created loyalty. They worked them from an entry level boat all the way up to a high end boat. I see Gibson doing the same thing. They bridged a gap between two price points, the Epi and the OAI lines. They will be able to create loyalty without there being a big gap between the low end and high end.

Honestly, if I were to buy a mandolin in that price range, I would gravitate to the Flatiron over an Eastman, or anything else comparable, simply because of the Gibson name and tradition.

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## Tim

> ...the emotional attachment to "Flatiron" is borderline irrational...


You could argue that any emotional attachment that you don't personally have is borderline irrational. #I don't understand my coworker's attachment to baseball cards. #I really didn't understand a former coworker who competed with his stamp collection (stamps from the Panama Canal during the construction period were his specialty). #When those conversations rolled around I politely listened and nodded occasionally. #It cost me little and spread good will. #Heck ignoring them would have spread goodwill. #What would have been disruptive would have been to say they were irrational in their choice of hobby.

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## Avi Ziv

I also feel that it would have felt "better" if Gibson chose another name for this new line of mandolins. 

But do we really think that anyone will buy one of these by mistake just because the name is the same that great old company? Many products in the market go through this kind of branding "re-use" (to say it nicely). It probably evokes some positive memory and causes someone to buy it but I don't think it affects the value of any vintage original product.

in 1998 I walked into Mandolin Brothers and bought my first mandolin. It was a Flatiron A5-Artist and I still play it every day. At the time, I didn't know a thing about mandolins and never even heard the name Flatiron. I bought it because (to my ears) it was the best sounding mandolin in the store at my price range. I had one of the salespeople there play about 20 mandolins for me , in case you are wondering how I knew that it sounded the best at that time... As it turns out, this mandolin was made in Nashville by Gibson, and NOT by the original company. Is my mandolin in fact identical to the ones made by the original company? I don't know. Frankly, it doesn't matter to me. I think it's an excellent mandolin. Should I too feel cheated by Gibson? I don't. I simply evaluate it on it's own merit. The instrument tells me everything I need to know. If I picked up a Gibson mandolin and didn't like the sound, I would put it down in spite of the name. I have done that more than once.

It's a shame that (like the movie industry) companies have to ride on the waves of previous successes and make sequels that rarely are as good as the originals but at least we here - on the mandolincafe - are all smart (obsessed?) enough to do our homework and know what's what.

If these new instruments prove a good value and develop a following, then they deserve it. If not, then they deserve it too.

Avi

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## Jim Broyles

Tim, I don't disagree with what you say about others' hobbies. This is not such a case, in my estimation, because there has become a mystical, mythical assignation of value to a name which has changed since it was acquired by Gibson, and to "venerable" things concerning the mandolin in general, regardless of the actual quality thereof.

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## Lee

Personally, I've always thought Flatiron was a rather stupid name for a mandolin. A flat iron is something to cook griddle cakes on, or maybe whack a golf ball with. Yes, I lusted over them in Elderly's old catalogs, but in the back of my mind there was always the stigma of that ridiculous name. 
Is there some story behind the name that I've never heard?
(I'm sorry if I've committed sacrilege. Then again, this comes from a fellow who doesn't appreciate scrolls either.)

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## fatt-dad

> Is there some story behind the name that I've never heard?


The Front Range of the Rocky Mountains (i.e., the eastern slope) include a geologic (geomorphic) landform called "Flatirons". They are inclined beds of rock that were lifted nearly vertical during the Rocky Mountain building event. As they were lifted, fast-flowing waters from the seasonal ice melts incised the inclined beds and as the canyons were formed the beds took on a "Flatiron" shape.

Prominent flatirons are present in Montana and Colorado. Owing to Flatiron's original presence in Bozeman (and the geologic flatiron backdrop) the name was fitting.

If you've ever been to Red Rocks (Golden Colorado), you've seen some great flatirons. Whether you remember, well that depends on the show. . . . 

f-d

jmando: I liked your reply and I can relate. I'll just add, that as the Mustang evolved, there remained some dedicated Mustang lovers (well maybe not the Mustang II - ha).

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## Michael H Geimer



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## bgmando

Maybe they should have moved the Gibson brand name to China, seems like that would have been more sensible and profitable even than moving Flatiron.
  That's the approach many of you seem to prefer.

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## pickinNgrinnin

Of course it's an emotional attachment. You either have it or you don't. If you don't have it, there is not need to ride those of us who do. It's a feeling you have in your gut - not in some cerebral context.

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## fatt-dad

Ah, I can smell the pine trees from here. . . .

Thanks for the photo Benignus!

fatt spent-alot-of-time-in-the-Front-Range-but-now-in-Virginia dad

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## kvk

> .....
> If you've ever been to Red Rocks (Golden Colorado), you've seen some great flatirons. Whether you remember, well that depends on the show. . . . 
> 
> f-d
> ....


Hey f-d, Que pasa?

Yeah, I saw Jerry and the Boyze at Red Rocks three nights in a row back in '84. I remember there were some real cool rocks, and the moon was cool, it came out after the rain, and the sun, no wait that wasn't at night, the sun was nice when we were hanging out at the campground and the moon was at the concert at night, and wait, something like that, they played a lot a rain songs the night it rained, Cold Rain and Snow, I'd Shine My Light Thru the Cool Colorado Rain, but It Looks Like Rain they played the night before; How'd they know?

 

-kvk

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## jefflester

> .....
> If you've ever been to Red Rocks (Golden Colorado), you've seen some great flatirons. #Whether you remember, well that depends on the show. . . . 
> 
> f-d
> ....


Not Golden (that's where Coors is :-). Red Rocks is outside Morrison, about 10 miles south.
Red Rocks Amp from space - Google Maps

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## allenhopkins

I'm just saying (for about the fourth time) --

I hope the imported Flatirons are good mandolins, filling Gibson's niche between the (fairly disposable) Epiphones and the (pretty expensive) US-made Gibsons. I hope Gibson sells a million of them, and we can all say, "Thank you, Big G!"

I just wish they'd called them something else. The attempt to invoke the memory of American makers by transferring their nameplates to imported instruments -- especially in cases where the quality of the imports doesn't approach that of their namesakes -- bothers me. I'm also a bit put off by attempts to hang pseudo-American names on imported instruments (Rover, Blue Ridge, Kentucky, Morgan Monroe, Shenandoah etc.). Same goes for pseudo-Celtic names (Michael Kelly, Trinity College, etc.). If they're made in Japan, call 'em Yamaha or Takamine or Suni or Tama. If they're made in China, give 'em a Chinese name. I don't think anyone is embarrassed to drive a Toyota or watch a Sony TV any more. 

Well, this subject has probably been driven into the ground by two multi-page threads. As noted above, the new Flatties will stand or fall based on their quality; gray-bearded pickers like me may grumble, but the overall market won't care. It's just another little instance of globalization, and a tiny erosion of tradition. So it goes.

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## Hal Loflin

I have been following this thread for about a week now, reading the posts everynight, and improziv really summed it up a couple posts ago.

Gibson has every right to capitalize on the name Flatiron and that is exactly what they are doing. They bought it...they own it...wheither we like it or not (and I don't but that is capitalism). Other than the quality of workmanship, the prototype mandolin that I saw and took pictures of at Merlefest is identical in appearance to the Montana Flatiron Artist. That in itself is basically waht is bothering a lot of us.

I owned one for two years and it was a great mandolin. Had to part with it when my second son went to college. I personally believe that it will drive the value of the original Flatirons, especially the Montana Carlson/Weber ones. Only time will tell.

I am a golf professional by trade and I have seen sort of something similar in the golf buisness. Several years ago, and still to this day, we were flooded with imitation Pings, Callaways, Titeleist, Taylormade irons that were predominantly built in Asia. We did not like it but boy did they sell. The reason was that they were a fraction of the cost and looked just like the real irons.

But here is what was interesting. Many of those individuals that bought the copy would later come back and want the real deal. You can't imagine how many sets of Pings I have sold to previous "knock off" owners.

I know it is not exactly the same thing here but the new Flatiron is definantly a copy from Asia and I think that there will be some entry level players that will buy in cheap and then move up to Montana or Nashville Flatirons. Watch the price go up.

And finally...This is what I love the most about the Cafe. We can express our feelings and opinions and usually come to a better understanding about a topic and not be chastised (too much) in the process.

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## bikebum

It's business. Pure and simple. When they bought the company it included the brand name and the 'goodwill' attached to the name. I'd be tempted to say "Yeah man. I've got one of the original good ones." If I had one and felt that way. I can somewhat relate to when Gibson bought Dobro. I have one of the original OMI dobros, pre-Gibson. Doesn't bother me at all. Some day when I go to sell it I'll advertise it as an 'Original Dobro'.

Jerry

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## Rick Cadger

> I have been following this thread for about a week now, reading the posts everynight, and improziv really summed it up a couple posts ago.
> 
> Gibson has every right to capitalize on the name Flatiron and that is exactly what they are doing. They bought it...they own it...wheither we like it or not (and I don't but that is capitalism). Other than the quality of workmanship, the prototype mandolin that I saw and took pictures of at Merlefest is identical in appearance to the Montana Flatiron Artist. That in itself is basically waht is bothering a lot of us.
> 
> I owned one for two years and it was a great mandolin. Had to part with it when my second son went to college. I personally believe that it will drive the value of the original Flatirons, especially the Montana Carlson/Weber ones. Only time will tell.
> 
> I am a golf professional by trade and I have seen sort of something similar in the golf buisness. Several years ago, and still to this day, we were flooded with imitation Pings, Callaways, Titeleist, Taylormade irons that were predominantly built in Asia. We did not like it but boy did they sell. The reason was that they were a fraction of the cost and looked just like the real irons.
> 
> But here is what was interesting. Many of those individuals that bought the copy would later come back and want the real deal. You can't imagine how many sets of Pings I have sold to previous "knock off" owners.
> ...


good post, and i agree with the point about people who start with copies eventually aspiring to own the product that provided the inspiration for those copies.

my Antoria and Ibanez copies of electric guitars were eventually replaced with real Gibsons and Fenders.

(but then i discovered mandolin!)

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## latentaudio

Does anyone know when these new Flatirons will be available and what models the will have? It would be interesting to see how they compare with mandos in the same price range.

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## Dave Schimming

I too am sad to see the Flatiron line go to Asian production. Having said that, lower priced playable instruments do allow more people try and learn to play. I would never considered trying mandolin if the only option was a $5,000 Gibson. I learned to play on a Washburn F style that stayed in tune, was easy to play and had somewhat decent sound (little light on volume) and then moved up to a USA made Summit F.

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## om21ed

I have a Nashville built Performer A, that aside, isn't anything that puts more mandolins in more hands a good thing ?
Ed

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## Lee

Nice photo! And thanks for clearing up the name for me. So, if I ever move south and begin building mandolins let me have first dibs on the name "The Kudzu".

The same "name migration" has already occured in America's lost lamented piano building industry. As the factories of Sohmer, Story & Clark, Kimball, etc closed their doors across the country, the names were resurrected overseas and the products were not the same caliber, though some have been noble attempts and some are getting much better.
The Chinese Pearl River pianos have become respected. So there is definately great potential for that country to produce fine mandolins as well. Whatever the name.

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## Michael H Geimer

> "The Kudzu"


LOL Oh, the irony! Did you know Kudzu was originally an ... (wait for it) ... ASIAN IMPORT!

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## Michael H Geimer

> The same "name migration" has already occured in America's lost lamented piano building industry.


*Cough*(Baldwin)*Cough*

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## Lee

Purchased by none other than...

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## Mikey G

Having a 2001 Flatiron Festival that I bought new, I'd like to see one of these "new" Flatirons. From the pictures, they don't look that much like the one I have. They have the same headstock logo and fleur-de-lis, and the engraved, "The Flatiron" tail piece, but the color does not look like mine. I wonder how these compare to an Eastman, which seems to be very popular with a lot of people. I also am curious as to how much these will sell for used, after being out for a couple of years.

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## jk245

The Gibson family of brands:

Gibson, (new) Flatirion, Epiphone, Baldwin, Maestro, Wurlitzer, Tobias, Valley Arts Guitar, Slingerland Drums, Magic, Hamilton, Chickering Grands, Steinberger, Electar, Acolian

With these famous names in it's stable it is very likely that Gibson will make the NEW Flatirons an important source for their mandos. With availability of popular priced and high quality instruments the Flatirion will, in the future, bring many new mando players. This is good.

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## sbarnes

i'd like to see one.....
those of you who have referenced pictures....where?

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## JEStanek

sbarnes,
See page 3 of this thread.

Jamie

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## The Mandolin Store

I spoke with the product manager for OAI and I expect to have these in later this week or early next week. I am really excited to check these out.  The first run is called the Flatiron Festival F-2 and will have a flat fingerboard.  Anyone interested in pics, shoot me an email and I'll send them to you along with a review once I have played them. Of course as with Gibson mandolins, we are not allowed to photograph and put these on our website. 
Thanks,
Dennis
www.themandolinstore.com

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## JeffS

> I spoke with the product manager for OAI and I expect to have these in later this week or early next week. I am really excited to check these out.  The first run is called the Flatiron Festival F-2 and will have a flat fingerboard.  Anyone interested in pics, shoot me an email and I'll send them to you along with a review once I have played them. Of course as with Gibson mandolins, we are not allowed to photograph and put these on our website. 
> Thanks,
> Dennis
> www.themandolinstore.com


What if you photographed them with a mandolin stand that was for sale and just used the mandolin to demo the stand? Does that fly?

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## JEStanek

Epiphones can be photographed, right? Is the new Flatiron considered to be an OAI product and falls under their marketing rules? That really strikes me as odd. If Gibson wants to get into the mid priced mando market they need to have saturation levels of photographs and dealers. Ideally, they should be trying to generate the buzz that MK, then Eastman, and now J Bovier and Fullerton seem to be generating.

I think keeping their imported product behind the curtain won't help it any. Just my thoughts...

Jamie

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## MikeEdgerton

> Ideally, they should be trying to generate the buzz that MK, then Eastman, and now J Bovier and Fullerton seem to be generating.


I'm assuming that Gibson is selling this like the rest of the OAI line and isn't looking to expand it's dealer network just it's market penetration. Give the dealers a Gibson product to sell instead of the Eastmans, etc. I think you'll find that the bigger retailers are selling them alongside their Gibson mandolins.

By the way, as much as the folks here love those Fullertons they really don't belong in that list. I don't think you're going to see that brand in the future.

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## JEStanek

Maybe the Fullerton doesn't belong in the list of other imports as they are lower priced, but they sure have their fans here in our community (12 pages in one thread only 1.5 months old! That's serious buzz). The list was more about generating buzz with people early in their MAS cycle or with lower budgets. If people can't see it, and see it often and raved over, they will be less inclined to buy it.

Early in my MAS cycle, prior to finding the Cafe', I spent tons of time at Folk of the Wood's website. Their mandos were organized very well. They had a whole cycle of MAS to go through there from Johnsons - Webers and a couple of others beyond. Great photos, prices for most published, and video and sound clips. I've learned much more about the instruments and brands here but, FOTW did an excellent marketing job on their web page (please no further FOTW discussion).

Eastman generated a lot of buzz here and did very well early on due in no small part to Gordon Roberts (I love him) and Stephen Perry (Great Guy too!). This thread is up to 7 pages without weigh in from our Unofficial OAI spokesman BigJoe Vest (whom I think the world of from his posts and reputation here).

I do wish the line success. I feel competition will only make other brands improve their product or fade away. I'm just curious about their marketing strategy with them. Then again... it's awfully early in the game... There hasn't even been an official launch. A search on the gibson site for Flatiron had nothing returned.

Jamie

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## MikeEdgerton

Keep in mind that the Fullerton's went out at fire sale prices (except jbmandos's). The Gloucester as far as I can see could have been the sleeper of the year. I didn't care that much for mine but everyone else seems to think they are great so it's my ears that are wrong. The buzz was really based on the great deal people were getting on a closeout instrument. This was a bargain but doesn't seem to be brand building and it certainly wasn't intentional. If jb hadn't trumpeted the word I doubt that it would have been a blip on the radar screen. MK and Eastman (and it looks like JBovier now) were building a brand. Music123 was trying to get rid of inventory.

With that said I hope that the Flatiron's take the pacrim mandolin to a new level. 

As for the American Flatiron's, I am now intrigued enough that I want one and will try to buy one when I can. It's another piece of history. Amazingly the domain name of flatiron.com hasn't been registered.

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## Chip Booth

> Amazingly the domain name of flatiron.com hasn't been registered.


Well it has been now. I went to grab it, but it was gone already. 

Chip

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## MikeEdgerton

> Well it has been now. I went to grab it, but it was gone already.


That's pretty funny. I was surprised when I ran it yesterday.

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## fatt-dad

Yeah, but I got flatironarchive.com - just have to continue working on the site. . . . 

Meanwhile, (at the risk of repeating myself) if anybody has a pre-Gibson Flatiron (i.e., 1987 or earlier) give me a shout. I'm collecting photos and serial numbers, going head to head with DanB on the mando-archive market!

f-d

f-d

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## Elliot Luber

I have a Kohler and Campbell Piano... from Korea.

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## no tyme flat

Lets face it Gibson would like to rewrite some history concerning the flatiron. They say hostile takeover, but most see as as a cry for help. Now that gibson is up and strong as ever, lets bury the past.

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## no tyme flat

Fat dad I have an A5 Jr with from Carlson. Fwi

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## manicmando

ive said once ill say it again its not Gibson its a Epiphone

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## Jim Broyles

But can it core a apple?

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## Bing Cullen

I havn't had time to read all the posts, but someone did say Gibson manufacturing in China under the Flatiron name was ethical. Surely its not ethical...legal maybe, but not ethical. Its business strategy and that's not necessarily ethical..not many businesses are. Ethics is for saps like us who buy the stuff and lawyers and doctors. And there are probably some contributors to this thread who have business motives too..and some of us are influenced enough to buy a cheap asian copy of an F5 or whatever, because someone has said they are of good quality and sound. One thing for sure though, they ain't going to get any cheaper than they are right now...and IMHO they ARE well made high quality and sound good. (I have no association with any manufacturer...yet)

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## Jim Broyles

Is it unethical for Black and Decker to sell consumer grade power tools made in China? How about Sears Roebuck's Craftsman label being made in China? Is this unethical as well? How is it unethical for a corporation to sell a product under a brand name which it owns, regardless of where the brand is manufactured? It would be unethical for Gibson to promote the Flatiron as made in the USA while in fact making it in China, but it's no more unethical to sell Chinese Flatirons than it is for GE, Philips, RCA or any other originally American company to manufacture their products anywhere they choose to do so.

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## MikeEdgerton

> it's no more unethical to sell Chinese Flatirons than it is for GE, Philips, RCA or any other originally American company to manufacture their products anywhere they choose to do so.


And that is the truth jb. Gibson paid for the Flatiron company, they own the brand. There is nothing unethical about making money using what they own. 

As consumers we have the ultimate power. We can choose to NOT buy the product. Rather than castigate Gibson for doing what they have every right to do, we can make a personal decision not to buy one. This is the right that all of us have. Anyone that has issues with Gibson's business decision should simply exercise that right. Beyond that there really isn't an argument to be made. 

As for me, I'm not looking for a pacrim mandolin but hey, I might actually look at them along with everything else on the day I might be looking for one.

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It is certainly no less ethical to make Flatiron brand instruments in China than it is to make Gibson brand instruments in Nashville.

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## MikeEdgerton

> It is certainly no less ethical to make Flatiron brand instruments in China than it is to make Gibson brand instruments in Nashville.


Well said, or in Montana for that matter.

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## JEStanek

What about a Ford or a GM vehicle built in China? Washburn Mandolins? Is this really an ethical delima or a nostalgia? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean its unethical.

Jamie

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## Bing Cullen

Whilst not being a student or scholar in ethics, I doubt very much whether ethics can be decided by popular vote. I would say anything that sets out to deceive whether deliberately or not is unethical, but this is only my opinion. Most of that maunfacturing of your product overseas because labour is cheaper is, to me, unethical..but obviously there are strong business drivers to do it and its obviously not illegal..in fact there are some benefits to be had for both sides. I don't think I would be bothered by ethics if the business opportunity arose for me either...but I wouldn't defend it as being ethical. Anyway it doesn't really matter whether it is or or isn't its purely semantics. The fact is it is happening and will continue to happen. Obviously a touchy subject this ethics business...any feelings on stem cell research and how it could apply to mando clones?

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## sbarnes

anybody know if they are available yet and if so where.....

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## Jim Broyles

The main difference here is that Gibson is not deceiving anyone deliberately or otherwise. Nobody thinks Epiphones are made in Kalamazoo today, and nobody will believe that Flatirons are made in Nashville. This is not pure semantics at all, it is one misguided opinion, due to nostalgia or something, and in my opinion, it is incorrect. As to the stem cell issue, I hope no one touches that with a ten foot pole.

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## MikeEdgerton

> I would say anything that sets out to deceive whether deliberately or not is unethical, but this is only my opinion.


You are correct, anybody that did that would be unethical. 

With that said, a corporation buys another company. At some time in the future they decide to market a product that bears the old brand name that they rightfully own. U.S. laws dictates that the country of origin must be clearly marked on all imported goods. They announce a new product that will carry the old brand name and say it will be built in another country. They import the product properly labeled for sale. 

Where did they do anything that might even be considered misleading? Do you know where the toothpaste you use is made? Big shock to me to find out that some brands were made in China. Nobody said anything that I can recall when that change occurred. Was that unethical? Not really, it's that whole global economy thing. 

This is an emotional issue based on people's attachment to a brand name. It's not an ethical issue. It really is OK to be upset about this, it's just wrong to label it something that it isn't.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Nobody thinks Epiphones are made in Kalamazoo today


Nobody thinks Gibson's are made there either

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## JEStanek

Using cheaper labor is unethical? #If you need work done on your car/ house/ boat/ mandolin/ body/ _whatever_ do you get use the most expensive service? #Do you feel bad about using the person with a more competitive price?

If you have a 401K or stock portfolio you're using to help fund your retirement you should hope your investments are using cheaper, leaner supply chains and manufacturing methods to increase earnings per share.

If you have another means of funding your retirement, great!


I would say anything that sets out to deceive whether deliberately or not is unethical, but this is only my opinion. 


I think if anyone is being decieved by the new product using an old brand name, that person failed to do their homework before making a purchase.

Every advertisment attempts to decieve you... drink buzz cola and be younger, wear froo-froo undies and be sexier, try our diet and loose 100 pounds... That's marketing. As a consumer you need to be smart about what you buy and what it can/can't really do for you.

Jamie

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## Steve L

I think Gibson using that sense of "nostalgia" you are talking about using the brand name Epiphone, a once fine instrument maker with a long established reputation, for some pretty lousy instruments. #I wouldn't feel any different about this stuff if it were made in the USA vs China...bad is bad. #I see a lot of Epiphone electric guitars and they have lots of problems.

We'll have too wait and see what comes down the pike with Flatiron. #I don't think what Gibson is doing is illegal or even "unethical" #I do think it sucks and I have every right to think so.

By the way, it's recommended that you throw away any toothpaste made in China...they have recently discovered toxic substances in it. #

Caveat emptor.

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## MikeEdgerton

> I do think it sucks and I have every right to think so.


I think I agreed with that when I said "It really is OK to be upset about this..."




> By the way, it's recommended that you throw away any toothpaste made in China...they have recently discovered toxic substances in it.


Not all just some. Think of it as an exciting way to start and end your day.

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## Steve L

The word "some" does not appear in the warning on the FDA's website.

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## Bing Cullen

I am not saying that making in a different location is unethical per say. They probably impose strict standards in their factories and ensure the quality is maintained. Also Chinese craftsmen are highly skilled and take pride in their work...they would be ashamed to make a shoddy product. But that's not the point. My feeling is that the goodwill (which Gibson purchased in the name #Flatiron), was built from the perception that this was a quality product made in America by American craftsman. Gibson are relying on this "brand" recognition to achieve sales. Also Fender does the same. Now Gibson in the past (probably)thought Flatiron were unethical in copying their F5 design and competing in their market...also they thought it was illegal. The upshot was they sued then bought the company. Flatiron probably would have won the case, because so many precedents have been set re copied designs eg the violin, all the Martin designs etc. Remember Martin in the 70's were so concerned about cheap japanese imports copying their designs that they set up Sigma Guitars to compete. This was a good business decision on their part. But they didn't call them Martins. I also doubt that the name Gibson will be used for a instrument manufactured #outside the States...it would just be too confusing for the buying public and would devalue their instruments. However most people on this thread seem to feel that stateside made Flatirons will increase in value due to them now being made in the China. I'm not so sure.

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## Ted Eschliman

> They probably impose strict standards in their factories and ensure the quality is maintained. Also Chinese craftsmen are highly skilled and take pride in their work...they would be ashamed to make a shoddy product.


I just spent two days in Beijing (& Chuong Li), and am on my second day touring factories in Taipei (& Kuolin), all the manufacturing facilities of Jupiter Band Instruments (KHS Music Co.) and Mapex Drums. I can't speak for all the other Chinese factories, but the ones I've just spent hours walking through are filled with happy, loyal, focused employees. When I left the factory yesterday, the employee band was having there regular Thursday night rehearsal. They not only make the instruments, they LIVE them.

This has been a most enlightening trip.

The Great Wall

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## Bing Cullen

In reply to Jamie's argument about cheap labour etc. These are valid points, but I don't think they are relevant to the question of ethics. We all do things that make economic sense but are possibly unethical eg buy pirated goods. I have never worked for a company that had an ethical box in their decision tree about proceedng with a project...you know...is this ethical?..no, don't do it...yes, proceed. With regard to using cheap labour...no that's not unethical, but if you saw the conditions workers endure in China, then you might think again about having your goods manufactured there. There are no minimum safety conditions, toilet facilities, paid leave etc and wages are minimal. If someone gets hurt, they get replaced. I have met several Americans in Beijing in all different industries who now get their equipment manufactured in China...they have to because they would go out of business otherwise. The Chinese are ripping off designs of just about everything you can make and making them for a tenth the price they can elsewhere. All the people I have spoken to who have visited the factories say the same thing...workers conditions are shocking.

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## JEStanek

I'm guessing you were writing as Ted was posting (great photo Ted - I'm green with envy). I know at my company, we do have an ethical box we send decisions through. I know because I was the box. Granted I was a lower level manager but my decisions could have cost the release of questionable quality vaccine going to market. There are ethical "boxes" at all levels. Most of the times my company, at least, seems to make the right choices. Mistakes occasionally happen. These are human institutions after all.

A similar example to the Flatiron line is Coors beer. Remember their claim of Rocky Mountain Spring Water? You don't hear that so much any more because there is more than just Rocky Mountain Spring water in it, like Shenandoah River water from Elkton, VA by one of their bottling plants working with beer brought in on train tank cars. See their website as the VA plant will soon be a full brewery. They also brew and distribute in China (the largest beer drinking country on the planet - from their website).

Does anyone assume their VW car, for instance, is all made in Germany? Still has German engineering... I think Gibson may capitalize on a name recognition but how many people who are educated about their purchase (including seeing the MADE IN CHINA sticker on the instrument) will assume this is a "real Gibson"? I just don't see it.

I do accept that people don't like it. I don't own a modern Gibson or Flatiron and I still don't like the idea but I don't think it's unethical. I also firmly believe this line will not have a negative impact on the value of US Flatirons (from any of their birth places).

Jamie

edit: for all you bubble wrap freaks.

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## Bing Cullen

All the made in China stickers are just that..stickers that come off easily....I'm glad of that because I can take it off my Epiphone banjo and no one knows where it was made. Ted's post was the same time as mine. I don't think this is the forum to discuss those issues any further, so I'll drop it. China is culturaly different and what we consider poor working conditions are probably considered good over there.

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## Bing Cullen

Incidentally when I was writing that bit about ethical box I thought about pharmaceutical companies...one of my daughters works for one and does precisely that too. So does Gibson have an ethics department?

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## allenhopkins

> So does Gibson have an ethics department?


Yeah, that's where they build their Ethicsphone instruments...

But seriously, folks, I see nothing inherently unethical or immoral about reassigning the "Flatiron" label to a line of imported instruments. It is, however (for want of a better word), a bit icky. It's trying to capitalize on the good reputation established by Weber and Carlson and the other Flatiron founders, and carried on to some extent by Gibson's own employees who built the American/Gibson/Flatirons -- and to transfer that reputation to a line of instruments which may or may not approach, equal or exceed the quality of those Flatirons of yore. Just as the "Epiphone" label is supposed to evoke the skill and quality of the instruments Epi Stathopoulo and his associates produced in the 1930's and 40's.

This thread wouldn't be dragging on for months and pages, were there not many people, Flatiron owners and others, who feel some identification with the excellent instruments that have carried that label. No one needs to keep reminding us about the reality of the global economy, or the cost advantages of making things in East Asia. In an era when fast-food restaurants are considering having their drive-up orders filled through operators in India, we all know the score.

But I still wish that Gibson would call its new Chinese line the Yangtze or the Chairman Mao or something other than Flatiron. Ain't gonna happen, and we all know it, but somehow, calling 'em Flatirons seems wrong. Just does.

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## Scott Tichenor

This conversation is heading into territory away from what this site is for, and becoming more and more of a few select people attempting to win an argument and push personal hot button topics. If you want to discuss labor practices of foreign countries, speculate that what you don't like has to be unethical... might be best to take it somewhere else.

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## mythicfish

"they were threatened by a lawsuit from Gibson and sold rather than face litigation

see steve stone's post on this thread "

You are citing a post which gives no sources (primary or otherwise) to establish it's validity. 
Kind of like the Ibanez mandolins and all that "lawsuite era" rubbish.

Curt

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## sbarnes

i think it's unethical for them to say it exists and we discuss 8 pages about it and i can't find one to try.....

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## cooper4205

> "they were threatened by a lawsuit from Gibson and sold rather than face litigation
> 
> see steve stone's post on this thread "
> 
> You are citing a post which gives no sources (primary or otherwise) to establish it's validity. 
> Kind of like the Ibanez mandolins and all that "lawsuite era" rubbish.
> 
> Curt


I know Curt, I didn't quote it as it was gospel. i put it up to show that there could be another side to why the company was sold to Gibson, besides purely making a profit. 

The poster I was replying to seemed to be pretty sure the company was sold to solely make a buck and for greed, I just tried to show that there are other opinions on the matter (and given the field of work the person the quote was from works in, its is not unreasonable to think it would have some merit). I know all about citing sources (primary or otherwise)that's what I do at work, but this is no newspaper just an internet message board. 

Now, I am not in this discussion anymore and that post was well over a month ago, so just let it rest.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Remember Martin in the 70's were so concerned about cheap japanese imports copying their designs that they set up Sigma Guitars to compete


You are a bit misinformed. The Sigma's came after Martin imported guitars labeled as "Martin Shenandoah". Built in Japan, and minimally finished in the USA.

----------

What bothers me more than putting "famous" brand names on imported goods is the practice of putting "by Gibson" type statements on those products and their packaging. I run into people all the time who think their Epiphone was really _made_ by Gibson.

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## saznpins

I haven't been around for a couple of years... busy birthing two beautiful sons in 2 years (2 months and 21 months)  :Wink:  The older one loves to join in and whack the strings on my Sweet Pea 

I came on here to see if anyone had seen the Sesame Street that has a mandolin player playing "jump up" and noticed this thread. As a Montana Flatiron owner it makes me sad. I guess Gibson owns the name and can do whatever makes business sense. It just makes me sad.

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## JEStanek

Saznpins, that Sesame Street player is Dan Zanes. I think he makes great music. He plays a couple of old Gibsons (ff and oval hole) A models. He also has more videos getting air time on the Disney Channel. His music is good and I wouldn't say restricted to kids music.

Jamie

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## salleyann

Personally I'm glad to see it come about. All it's going to do 
is increase the value of my two American made Flatirons.
Since everyone knows the quality is going to be sub-standard,
the originals will be much more sought after.

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## F5G WIZ

Got to play one today, knew from the second I picked it up it was poor quality. #Very weak chop, no bottom end at all. #As to be expected, but disappointing. #

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## Pete Braccio

Where was there one in stock?

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## F5G WIZ

The Mandolin Store has one, he may have taken it in on trade I'm not sure. But I think it was new. It was the only one he had.

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## jk245

> This conversation is heading into territory away from what this site is for, and becoming more and more of a few select people attempting to win an argument and push personal hot button topics. If you want to discuss labor practices of foreign countries, speculate that what you don't like has to be unethical... might be best to take it somewhere else.


I agree with Scott. The Gibson website has no information about this new line (as of June 9 2007). Anyone who claims to have see or played the said instrument is likely to not have seen a production product (ie: they saw a prototype). Give Gibson a chance to make their formal presentation before making any statements about the new line.

With regard to the Gibson commitment to make high quality products overseas, please take a look at Gibson's promo page at:

http://www.epiphone.com/news.asp?NewsID=868

Gibson site

Once again, respect Scott by refraining from commenting upon practices in the far east which have nothing to do with either Gibson or the Flatirion products.
Let us make judgements on their *products* when Gibson is ready to show us their goods.

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## jk245

> The Mandolin Store has one, he may have taken it in on trade I'm not sure. But I think it was new. It was the only one he had.


Is the said insrument an old model? How could they have a product 'in trade' if Gibson has not yet released the product?

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## Steve L

With regard to Gibson's commitment to make high quality products overseas, please take a look at:

The little mounds of white metal shavings collecting under the tune-o-matic bridge of a Les Paul Special as you attempt to adjust the intonation in vain.

The uncanny ability to install trus rod cover screws , the heads of which strip almost instantly, at 3 different 45 degree angles.

Uneven fret jobs on Epiphone SGs that look like abandoned railroad tracks on a hot August day.

The new Flatirons might well be the most wonderful thing since the Salk vaccine, but propaganda is propaganda.

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## F5G WIZ

It was not an old Montana or Nashville Flatiron, it is one of the new Chinese Flatirons, pretty much looked like an Epiphone with a Flatiron inlay and sounded about the same. Had a price of less than 1000 and is an F model.

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## flairbzzt

As someone who has owned under one thousand and multi-thousand $$ mandos as finances permitted, I just want to know how they stack up against the others in this price point point as far as quality. Eastman took the top spot in recent years- this model line is obviously seems to be after them. This is no surprise to anyone who's been around here and heard of this more than a year ago. We do and will always know the difference between old and new, or can come here to learn it. SO, what does it sound like, what does it play/feel like? That's what I'm interested in.

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## misterc

_&lt;Comment removed for violating board posting guidelines&gt;._

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## ashemando

_&lt;Comment removed for violating board posting guidelines&gt;._

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## Scott Tichenor

I've already asked once that this conversation stay away from flaming and political viewpoints. Doing so does not serve this community and will not be tolerated further.

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## allenhopkins

Scott, might be time to shut 'er down. After nine pages I think almost everyone's got his or her opinion out here multiple times.

The next relevant thread, as pointed out above, will the the one featuring postings by people who've actually bought and/or played the Forbidden City Flatirons. If they're genius-grade, impeccably constructed, and a fine value for the money, I will reluctantly chow down on my chapeau. If they're just Epi's with a new nameplate, I will continue to lament the commercial impulse that relegated one more respected, historical instrument name to "just another cheapo from the Shanghai Depot," as it were.

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## MikeEdgerton

I can honestly say that up to now I've never seen one of those new Chinese Flatirons that sounded bad.

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## John Ritchhart

Well I started this. (Sorry Scott) The one I played was at Merlefest and was for sale for approx. $800. It felt OK, the tone was starter model level. I'd guess the Eastmans are still the leader. The inlay on the headstock was not standard Flatiron but a Fleur-de-Lis.

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## ashemando

I am not really sure why my post was removed but I think it is relevant to everyone's mandolin hobby to consider the
ramifications of what brand they purchase.

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## brianf

The new Weber F model STE looks and sounds much like the old Weber Flatiron. #The top and fingerboard are integral, and the tone has that bell-like quality. #Looks like Bruce decided to resurrect the Flatiron under a different name.

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## Ted Eschliman

> it is relevant to everyone's mandolin hobby to consider the ramifications of what brand they purchase.


While you're at it, the country of origin of that computer you're typing on. How about the TV set (VCR, DVD player) you watch, car you drive, cell phone you talk on, batteries for the flashlight or smoke alarm. 

This mentality reminds me of the 70's "All in the Family" episode where Archie chides his wife, Edith for making Cow Tongue for the evening meal. "Edith, you know where the tongue's been? I'm not eating none of that... 

'Now go back in the kitchen and make me an egg."

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## Keith Erickson

> While you're at it, the country of origin of that computer you're typing on. How about the TV set (VCR, DVD player) you watch, car you drive, cell phone you talk on, batteries for the flashlight or smoke alarm.


Thanks Ted....  ...I loved your post  

I just sprayed sprite all over my monitor that was made in Taiwan

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## mando_dan

QUOTE:
"While you're at it, the country of origin of that computer you're typing on. How about the TV set (VCR, DVD player) you watch, car you drive, cell phone you talk on, batteries for the flashlight or smoke alarm.

"This mentality reminds me of the 70's "All in the Family" episode where Archie chides his wife, Edith for making Cow Tongue for the evening meal. "Edith, you know where the tongue's been? I'm not eating none of that...

"'Now go back in the kitchen and make me an egg." While you're at it, the country of origin of that computer you're typing on. How about the TV set (VCR, DVD player) you watch, car you drive, cell phone you talk on, batteries for the flashlight or smoke alarm.

"This mentality reminds me of the 70's "All in the Family" episode where Archie chides his wife, Edith for making Cow Tongue for the evening meal. "Edith, you know where the tongue's been? I'm not eating none of that...

'Now go back in the kitchen and make me an egg." 


Ted, with all due respect, those big ticket items you ticked off are essentially commodities and mandolins aren't. (Commodity, as stolen from Wikipedia, is something for which there is demand, but which is supplied without qualitative differentiation across a given market. Characteristic of commodities is that their prices are determined as a function of their market as a whole. Well-established physical commodities have actively traded spot and derivative markets... In essence, commoditization occurs as a good or service becomes undifferentiated across its supply base by the diffusion of the intellectual capital necessary to acquire or produce it efficiently. As such, many products which formerly carried premium margins for market participants have become commodities, such as generic pharmaceuticals and silicon chips.)

In my opinion, and it's just that, paying no attention to a product's country of origin does have impacts, mostly small, but when combined with others in the market, quite large. For example, several west African nations no longer export tropcical hardwoods. This is not a choice, but a consequence that their forests largely no longer exist and and therefore cannot support and active export trade. I won't go into further as I believe that avenue of discussion is negatively viewed on this thread. However, I think your comparison of mandolins to cell phones is flawed and I'll leave it at that.

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## Big Joe

My watch is imported...from Switzerland! #Is that bad???  .

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## Ted Eschliman

iPods, Single Malts, oil, Coronas, Old Navy clothes, coffee, fireworks, Mr. Bean movies?

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## Keith Erickson

> My watch is imported...from Switzerland! #Is that bad??? # #.


Joe,

That's not bad at all...... 

....but if Gibson goes over to Switzerland to make mandolins and to take advantage of the extreme low cost of labor in Switzerland then that would be bad

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## MikeEdgerton

If I could buy things made in America and be happy with the quality I would. The problem is that I can't. I drive a German automobile. It gets 49 miles to the gallon. I couldn't find an American car that did the same. I can't go to a department store and buy clothes that are made in America even if I want to. Forget electronics. My former father-in-law was determined to buy a television that was made in the USA in 1975. He bought a Muntz, took the back off and was really angry that all the components were made outside the US. That was over 30 years ago. I do own an American made mandolin. Three actually. More by choice of brands than anything else. The truth is that you simply can't get by buying things that are made only in this country. This global economy is here like it or not. You learn to make the best of it. It's a reality that you can't ignore.

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## allenhopkins

I think it's too bad this thread turned into a debate over "buy American." Although I do have to state that when I bought my first Dodge minivan back in the mid-'80's, I listened to Mr. Iacocca and all his rhetoric about supporting domestic auto producers. When I bought the Caravan, I found that the body had been made in Canada, the engine was Japanese, and the tires were French (Michelins). I believe the owner's manual was printed in the US.

But I think the main question this thread raised, was the propriety of taking an American nameplate (Flatiron), purchasing the company, closing down its independent operations, then using the trademark on a line of less-expensive imported instruments. Buy wherever and whatever you wish; I have instruments made in China, Japan, Germany, England, and the US. I only ask that manufacturers and distributors be upfront about what is and isn't a domestic product. Many pages and posts were devoted to determining whether a particular eBay Flatiron was American or Chinese. 

Gibson can do what it damn well pleases with a trademark it owns. And I can say what I damn well please about what I think of Gibson's decision. And we all can buy whatever instruments we damn well please, right?

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## JEStanek

I think the discussion would be the same if Gibson used the Flatiron brand name on an American produced instrument made by folks who weren't trained as builders but just ran wood through jigs and CNCs and sprayed them down. #Hand made vs cookie cutter.

I feel _where_ the new Flatiron comes from is less important than how a repected/venerated small line of hand built, low volume, production instruments of high quality are now being mass produced. #Beating up on the global economy is, to me, a red herring compared with the fundamental shift between how the original Flatiron was produced and how it will be manufactured now.

Jamie

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## Ed Lutz

Allenhopkins: Posted on Aug. 30 2007, 10:27
Gibson can do what it damn well pleases with a trademark it owns. #And I can say what I damn well please about what I think of Gibson's decision. #And we all can buy whatever instruments we damn well please, right? 
[QUOTE]

Hooray...good stuff..but only as long as America stays America.

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## Big Joe

I went by the Showcase today. They got a bunch of the Flatiron F2's in. I played three of them and they were dang good for the money. I've played a lot of higher priced mandolins that did not sound that good or play that good. I am impressed. Not because they have anything to do with Gibson, just that they are a good mandolin for the money.

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## brianf

If Gibson really believes that any Asian manufacturer can make an instrument that equals the quality of their own American-made mandolins, why are they still making any here at home? If they don't believe that, why would they allow the use of their brand name on anything other than the original American-made? #Yes, the brand name of Flatiron is still theirs, even though they discontinued the line.

By now, we should all know that name does not garantee quality. #Gibson suffered through a banjo quality decline, which many buyers didn't know until too late. Even today the price that one can get on a used Gibson banjo depends on the year of manufacture. They had to make a good effort to correct that, and the same thing can happen to the vaunted Gibson mandolin line, unless the PacRim Flatiron quality closely matches the Gibson reputation.

Weber put out feelers on the STE mandolin, which was built on the lines of the original Flatiron, but which didn't have the shiny finish and ornamental bells and whistles that the buying public loves so much. #The market wasn't there.

Ironically, The most prestigious maker, Gibson, has come out with a very expensive "distressed" model which allows the owner to feel a little more like Bill Monroe, and the wannabees, who can afford it, are buying.

Go figure.

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## Big Joe

brianf...no one in Gibson even remotely thinks the pac rim production will equal anything done by OAI. That is not the point. If you want a mid range mandolin that is nicely playable, and sounds decent then the big G has to go overseas to have it built. The cost to build that same mandolin in the USA will be what they charge for the Gibson line. When the Flatirons were built in Nashville, it cost just as much to build them as it did the other mandolins of comparable trim. That is why they stopped the production. They could not afford to build an instrument that cost the same to build, but sold for substantially less. They were losing money on the Flatiron production. It was a multi-year search to find the niche they wanted for the Flatiron and where it could be built for the price point they desired. 

Unfortunately, it is a case of American cost of manufacture exceeding the limits and the product became endangered. While you may not like its present build locastion, at least it is not doomed to extinction.

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## brianf

Thanks, Joe. #Marketing strategies are among the many areas about which I know very little. #It is just that I seem to notice that the plain-jane, well built mandolin styles #are becoming much more noticeable in the market. #I mention the success of the Gibson stressed model, as an example. #

The question is, if Gibson, or any maker can make a comparable quality instrument overseas, why are they not making all of their product there, and realizing a higher profit margin?

The other side of that question is, if I can buy an Asian-made Flatiron (Gibson owned name)of a quality equal to that of an American-made instrument, why would I spend my money on the higher priced one, just because it has the Gibson name on it?

And, finally, if the quality of the overseas construction is brought to higher standards, due to the insistence of the parent American company, will they not soon independently offer comparable products, and do so at serious competition to their former bosses?

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## Ed Lutz

I would love to try out the pac-rim Flatiron. I just want another mandolin on the market and see capitalism at work here at home. I am happy as can be over Gibson doing this for the mandolin players and future players in this round world. Makes me feel good too. 

Unfortunately for me, there is a bit of travel to find one to try out. I hope the Fiddler's Green Music shop in Memphis will handle the line. 

 #

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## Ed Lutz

I forgot to ask about variations and the price range of the new Flatirons. Anyone have it?

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## Big Joe

Brian...Neither Gibson or anyones assumes a comparable mandolin to those produced in the USA are available. There are a few exceptions from small buidlers, but the mandolins produced in the Orient are a good product for the money...not competition for the upper mid range or upper end of the mandolin spectrum. This may be largely because they do not play the instruments they build or because they do not understand the voicing for western music or because they do not have the same quality woods and the time to hand build each instrument to the specs needed. They have learned to build great factory made products but in the mandolin community, they lack that little extra that makes a mandolin great. In other words, they cannot currently build a mandolin to replicate the Gibson DMM or any of the Gibson line. They cannot equal the quality and tone of the builders who frequent the cafe. We must remember they do a good job at their price point only.

The Flatiron is not equal to the Gibson brand instruments in tone. Quality is another issue. They may be able to build one with substantial structural quality, but the tonal output will be far short. This is largely due to the fact they will all be overbuilt due to the way they build. The braces for each are the same. No adjustment. They build the necks a bit larger and the bodies a bit thicker to avoid returns on warranty....especially since they are made ten thousand miles from their market. Returns don't happen. They just destroy them and build more. Again, they don't currently have the ability to build a comparable instrument. 

If you want a good mandolin for about $800, then the Flatiron is a great product for the money. Just don't dilude yourself into thinking it is the same as a Gibson or any of the other good mandolins. 

Your last question was if they could bring the quality up by the guidance of the American companies. There is a vested interest in not doing this. There is only a certain level they wish to achieve with the import line. It is not intended to be a competitive product for the American made line. Couple that with the philosophy of the owner that the Gibson product be Amercian made. Should they be able to teach the Chinese factories to build a comparable product, they would be destroying the name plate they have spent the last twenty plus years building. While many may question the methods of Gibsons ownership, the owners are fully intent on the flagship brand being American made and retaining thier pride in making that possible. They have sent some of the brands overseas to be able to hit a price point in the market, but the top brand of the line continues to be American made. 

I have no vested interest in what they do anymore. However, I do know enough about the philosophy and desires of the company to speak what I know or experienced. The Gibson line will continue to be American made. While Epiphone makes a Great guitar for the money, it is not the same as the Montana made acoustics. The same for the Flatiron line of mandolins. Great for the money, but if you want a real mandolin, save a few more pennies and get the real deal. If you want a good introductory to intermediate mandolin, it will do nicely. I only wish we had the selection in that spectrum of the market when I started playing.

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## Keith Erickson

Just an observation...

It seems like many folks are upset over the Flatiron-China connection.

My advice would be... # ....if you are that upset about it, go to Gibson and purchase the Flatiron name and produce those mandolins yourself, at your workshop and in your home town.

I don't know what else to say that hasn't been said here already in the previous 10 pages.

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## Keith Erickson

You know what's going to be sad?

When that poor newby shows up there at the Mandolin Café... 

...all proud of his/her new Flatiron mandolin and then
*BAMMO*...  ...he/ she will get ripped to shreds for just owning the darn thing because it was made in China.

How inspired to you think that newby will be to stick with the mandolin after coming here and listening to some of the comments made about their mandolin?

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## brianf

> Brian...Neither Gibson or anyones assumes a comparable mandolin to those produced in the USA are available. #There are a few exceptions from small buidlers, but the mandolins produced in the Orient are a good product for the money...not competition for the upper mid range or upper end of the mandolin spectrum. #This may be largely because they do not play the instruments they build or because they do not understand the voicing for western music or because they do not have the same quality woods and the time to hand build each instrument to the specs needed. #They have learned to build great factory made products but in the mandolin community, they lack that little extra that makes a mandolin great. #In other words, they cannot currently build a mandolin to replicate the Gibson DMM or any of the Gibson line. #They cannot equal the quality and tone of the builders who frequent the cafe. #We must remember they do a good job at their price point only.
> 
> The Flatiron is not equal to the Gibson brand instruments in tone. #Quality is another issue. #They may be able to build one with substantial structural quality, but the tonal output will be far short. #This is largely due to the fact they will all be overbuilt due to the way they build. #The braces for each are the same. #No adjustment. #They build the necks a bit larger and the bodies a bit thicker to avoid returns on warranty....especially since they are made ten thousand miles from their market. #Returns don't happen. #They just destroy them and build more. #Again, they don't currently have the ability to build a comparable instrument. 
> 
> If you want a good mandolin for about $800, then the Flatiron is a great product for the money. #Just don't dilude yourself into thinking it is the same as a Gibson or any of the other good mandolins. #
> 
> Your last question was if they could bring the quality up by the guidance of the American companies. #There is a vested interest in not doing this. #There is only a certain level they wish to achieve with the import line. #It is not intended to be a competitive product for the American made line. #Couple that with the philosophy of the owner that the Gibson product be Amercian made. #Should they be able to teach the Chinese factories to build a comparable product, they would be destroying the name plate they have spent the last twenty plus years building. #While many may question the methods of Gibsons ownership, the owners are fully intent on the flagship brand being American made and retaining thier pride in making that possible. #They have sent some of the brands overseas to be able to hit a price point in the market, but the top brand of the line continues to be American made. #
> 
> I have no vested interest in what they do anymore. #However, I do know enough about the philosophy and desires of the company to speak what I know or experienced. #The Gibson line will continue to be American made. #While Epiphone makes a Great guitar for the money, it is not the same as the Montana made acoustics. #The same for the Flatiron line of mandolins. #Great for the money, but if you want a real mandolin, save a few more pennies and get the real deal. #If you want a good introductory to intermediate mandolin, it will do nicely. #I only wish we had the selection in that spectrum of the market when I started playing.


Thanks, Big Joe, for the long and detailed explanation. Your post is one to which future questions should be directed. #I guess a dependable indication of quality would be a matter of who signs the label.
 #

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## allenhopkins

> You know what's going to be sad?
> When that poor newby shows up there at the Mandolin Café...all proud of his/her new Flatiron mandolin and then
> *BAMMO*...he/ she will get ripped to shreds for just owning the darn thing because it was made in China.


This straw man has been demolished so many times, in this thread and others, that it's really surprising that someone keeps resurrecting him.

I don't hear very many people saying that people should not buy Asian-made instruments. Given the realities of the current market, one has no alternative if one wants to purchase a student-grade instrument, and few if one is buying an "intermediate" (&lt;$1K) mandolin.

What sparked this thread was the fact that Gibson's new line of Asian imports bears the "Flatiron" nameplate. The resultant confusion with the former American-made Flatiron instruments, discussed at length in this and other threads, stems from the (perfectly legal) use of the former American trademark, on (*admittedly* -- check Joe V's post above) lesser instruments.

While I may sympathize with Keith's hypothetical "poor newby," I also have some sympathy for the less-experienced buyer who purchases a new Asian Flatiron, thinking he or she is picking up the equivalent of the former Montana or Nashville Flatirons.

This is a problem elsewhere. Look at the bewildering variety of "Fender Stratocasters" on the market, made in three or four different countries, ranging several thousand dollars in price, and looking remarkably similar. Again, nothing really unethical, but highly confusing. Clever marketing trumping clarity and transparency.

Yeah, I know, I know, _caveat emptor_ and all that. It's the "poor newby's" own fault if he/she doesn't know any better, and thinks "I've scored a $2.5K mandolin for $800." It's the teenage rocker's bad luck if he or she can't tell a Squier from an American Standard Strat. But somehow, I find myself pinning some of the responsibility on the companies who play three-card monte with nameplates and model designations. Too bad, IMHO.

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## MikeEdgerton

Basically newbies buy what they can afford or want to spend. If taking the people posting on this thread to task for their negative views of this brand is anybody's idea of a good idea, then you'd better go after the Gibson bashers, the Johnson bashers, the Kentucky bashers, the MK bashers etc. To single out this thread as being demoralizing to the new mandolin community is just a little short sighted. This community seems to speak their mind on all issues. A quick search of almost any brand name can bring up a negative thread or multiple negative threads. Honestly I'd rather see all sides of an issue discussed, not just the rosy side.

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## Keith Erickson

> This straw man has been demolished so many times, in this thread and others, that it's really surprising that someone keeps resurrecting him.


Allen,

I sure hope that you're right. But how many new folks know the history of Flatiron as well as we do. I sure didn't know anything about anything when I started with this community.




> I don't hear very many people saying that people should not buy Asian-made instruments.


Take a look at some of the comments on this thread and others.

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## cooper4205

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> I don't hear very many people saying that people should not buy Asian-made instruments.
> 
> 
> Take a look at some of the comments on this thread and others.


I actually went back and re-read the thread (I know I have no life), no comments like that were ever made (in this thread at least, and I think I remember maybe two posts out of ten pages on the other). 

No one is arguing against import mandolins and saying they shouldn't be bought, just saying they don't like the fact that one certain brand is now being imported. 

It's ok for people to not share the same ideas, why do many on this thread and others think they should. The main theme that I saw recur in this thread, besides the sentiments expressed by some former Flatiron owners, was "Your stupid for caring what is being done with a brand name". 

It's within Gibson's right to do whatever they want with any name brand they hold. they could make Flatirons on the moon out dead kittens for all I care, but it's also my right to be able to say I don't like it.

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## JEStanek

I've not read a single thread where a person says "I'm new to the mando and got a great new instrument a Brand X F style!" And then seen people reply with, "What a piece of ####!" So far I've seen and try to encourage someone getting started. When someone asks for advice on a first/upgrade I give it based on my experiences. And it's worth what they pay for it. Are people really being duped?

Jamie

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## JeffS

> Yeah, I know, I know, _caveat emptor_ and all that. It's the "poor newby's" own fault if he/she doesn't know any better, and thinks "I've scored a $2.5K mandolin for $800." It's the teenage rocker's bad luck if he or she can't tell a Squier from an American Standard Strat. But somehow, I find myself pinning some of the responsibility on the companies who play three-card monte with nameplates and model designations. Too bad, IMHO.


I think that if the person knows enough about mandolins to even think they're getting a $2500 Flatiron for $800 then they should probably also know what year Flatiron went out of production, what the labels look like, they should know a little bit about serial numbers, etc. Therefore it wouldn't be a problem unless the seller stated it was something it was not. I wouldn't buy any used instrument without some kind of proof of when it was built.

Also I'd like to go back a few pages and touch on the topic of new Flatirons hurting the resale value of old flatirons...

I have an Asian built Epiphone guitar that looks very similar to the Epiphone guitars played by some big names in the mid 1960's. I could put it up on eBay for $500 and while it looks very much like the ones from Kalamazoo I doubt anyone would think it was a vintage instrument. And while there are thousands of these guys floating around it hasn't hurt the value of a 1960's Casino one bit. If anything I think it has made them more sought after. So I don't see the new Flatirons doing much to hurt the value of the old ones. For one, like Joe said it is a different market. So someone who has $800 to spend on a new Mandolin wouldn't have $2500 to spend on a used Flatiron. However, that person who started out with a $800 import will probably have wet dreams about owning an original and end up willing to pay a lot more for one.

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## JeffS

> I've not read a single thread where a person says "I'm new to the mando and got a great new instrument a Brand X F style!" And then seen people reply with, "What a piece of ####!" So far I've seen and try to encourage someone getting started. When someone asks for advice on a first/upgrade I give it based on my experiences. And it's worth what they pay for it. Are people really being duped?
> 
> Jamie


There haven't been any of those recently but I have seen people get their feelings hurt in more than one "What do you think about a Michael Kelly/Kentucky/Morgan Monroe/Bean Blossom?" thread. Things were much worse 2-3 years ago I think. Back then people even got bent over BRW threads. However this was all back before Chris Thile was the best ever. Now that everyone knows it, things are much more civilized or _civilised_ for those who know there is more to mandolin than bluegrass and don't understand this made in America debate.

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## mandomick

Would anybody be upset if I took this broke legged horse of a thread out behind the barn and shot it?

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## allenhopkins

> I think that if the person knows enough about mandolins to even think they're getting a $2500 Flatiron for $800 then they should probably also know what year Flatiron went out of production, what the labels look like, they should know a little bit about serial numbers, etc. *Therefore it wouldn't be a problem unless the seller stated it was something it was not.* I wouldn't buy any used instrument without some kind of proof of when it was built.


I assume if you're following this discussion, you may have seen this earlier thread in which _another_ ten pages were spent trying to decipher whether a Flatiron listed in eBay was Chinese or American. The seller's description was a bit enigmatic, and a lot of high-level brain power was devoted to analyzing his language and peering at the associated photos.

So it's not just the naive and uninformed who can be confused by the use of an established domestic nameplate, on a line of imported instruments. So my point, which I've repeated _ad nauseum_ (for my own and others' nausea), is that when Gibson says "Flatiron," most of us think of the products of Mr. Carlsen & Co. in Montana and later, Tennessee. Which is, of course, why Gibson chose to use the name it owns, on its new line of lesser-quality imports.

Perhaps Gibson could have called this new line of mandolins Great Wall or Forbidden City, or Great Leap Forward, or Beijing Breakdown. It's undoubtedly smarter marketing to call them Flatiron, so they can shine in the reflected glory of a small firm that produced some damn fine instruments for a decade or more, then infused some of that care and quality into a major manufacturer -- a company that was turning into the Les Paul Guitar Co., with a sideline of undistinguished acoustic instruments, unworthy heirs of a half-century-old legacy of Loars and Mastertones.

Jeez, that's long-winded! Hope you take my point. As I said a few posts ago, Gibson can do what it damn well pleases with the Flatiron label it owns. And some of us can say what we damn well please about what they're doing.

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## Ken Berner

Here is a unique thought for you; wouldn't it be neat and simple if the Gibson folks (immediately after the Montana era) decided to add another Gibson model called "Flatiron"? A model that would be an EXACT replica of what was being built in Montana (perhaps the Artist model), just one A model and one F model, plain and simple without any other designation at all (Gibson Flatiron F Model). With this scheme, I think the Flatiron name would still be highly valued as in the past, and would bring good prices. Let the pac-rim instruments bear a name that has already been degraded.

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## Big Joe

When Gibson moved the line to Nashville and Charlie D was put in charge, one of his first priorities was to do away with the things he felt were wrong with the Montana produced instruments. These include the neck joint, the body graduations and shape, the finish, and the bracing. He was very particular in what he wanted and what he felt was best for the company and product line. The Montana line was not moving in the direction the company wanted and sales were not that great. While those made in Montana were much better than those made for a good number of years before, they were not the zenith of mandolin production or tone. Charlie held a firm belief that he knew how to produce a mandolin that would restore the Gibson name in the Bluegrass community. While we may each have our opinions on what is a great mandolin, Charlie certainly accomplished his goal. He was never hesitant to discuss this or share his information with other builders or hobbiests. In Charlie's mind the mandolins produced at OAI in Nashville were superior in every way to those produced in Montana. I would agree with that. That does not mean the Montana mandolins were not good, only that Charlie felt they were better after production began at OAI. They were certainly more traditional and representative of the Gibson heritage.

Charlie would not build a bolt neck mandolin or mortise and tenon joint mandolin. He would not build an X braced mandolin, though it was discussed late in his term at OAI and we did built one. For Gibson to build the same thing they built in Montana would go against the grain of then management and the time and cost to retool and teach the builders how to make this other product would cost more than you would likely be willing to pay for the mandolin. In addition, the warranty cost on those mandolins would increase in time as has occured with those built in Montana. Neck joint failure is much higher in those mandolins with a mortise and tenon joint...with or without the bolt...than on dovetail neck joints. Charlie had more than enough experience as a repair person to recognize that if he were to head up mandolins for any company he would do it only with dovetail joints.

You may agree or disagree with his philosophy and it really does not matter. That is why and how the mandolins got to where they were in Nashville. If you want a mandolin representative of the Montana era, Bruce Weber builds a fine mandolin and he is a fine man. It is wonderful that we have so many choices and can find the model we like. If everyone built them all the same, it would be a very boring world. My preference is from having seen thousands of mandolins in the last couple decades in various states of disrepair and seeing them get back to where they need to be. I suspect Charlie drew his opinions the same way. Thank you.

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## bradeinhorn

[QUOTE= (allenhopkins @ Sep. 04 2007, 00:06)]


> I think that if the person knows enough about mandolins to even think they're getting a $2500 Flatiron for $800 then they should probably also know what year Flatiron went out of production, what the labels look like, they should know a little bit about serial numbers, etc. #*Therefore it wouldn't be a problem unless the seller stated it was something it was not.* #I wouldn't buy any used instrument without some kind of proof of when it was built.


I assume if you're following this discussion, you may have seen this earlier thread in which _another_ ten pages were spent trying to decipher whether a Flatiron listed in eBay was Chinese or American. #The seller's description was a bit enigmatic, and a lot of high-level brain power was devoted to analyzing his language and peering at the associated photos."

just so we're clear-it didn't take ten pages to come to that determination. it was proposed and seconded twice in the first three posts. not a lot of high level brain power. the sited thread concerned the individual seller's actions. those who saw it as a misrepresentation put blame on him, and those who saw Gibson to blame, put the blame on gibson. luckily the buyer was warned and didn't complete the transaction.

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## sgarrity

Well I played one of these Chinese Flatirons this weekend and I have to say was pleasantly surprised. Had a price of $789 and was a WHOLE lot of mando for the money. Nice fit and finish and pretty decent tone. These will definitely give Eastman a run for their money.

My only complaint is the Made in China Sticker. It's a small removeable sticker on the back of the headstock. If Gibson was a responsible corporate citizen, it would be on the label on the inside of the mando. Let's not make fraud any easier than it already is...

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## MikeEdgerton

Actually Brad, when I started the other thread I already knew it as Chinese, I was just being polite.

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## Keith Erickson

I hope these Flatirons are free of lead paint

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## earthsave

> I hope these Flatirons are free of lead paint


Just dont lick em and wash you hands after playing.

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## dirty harry

Ah Flatirons.......... I've owned a few. F-5 Atrist, A5 std (Carlson) and the Perf F. Best one ever was the Flt F-5 Perf F. Did a trade in with Dexter at Carmel Music. No regetes now. Wonder who ever wound up with this banjo killer. $ spent does not always equal sound! New Flats will only raise the values of the older ones. 
Harry
Harry

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