# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  F-10!

## bradeinhorn

on a fun trip to retrofret today to get a little tweak on the new mando, i got to play some cool old ones. the most unique among the bunch was an F-10 they just got in. very cool. it is all black, front, back and neck, and f-holed, but for some reason it has a short neck. it had a very neat boxey vintage tone and played great. i was expecting it to be more of a collectible, but i could see it being a nice player in the right environment. all on it is seemingly original, and apparently there are only a few known ones in existence, so that's pretty special. 

they recently got a very nice condition blacktop f-4 with gorgeous handel tuners which was one of the most impresive f-4s i've ever played. i typically don't care for this model but this one, i believe from 1913, is really quite nice. if anyone is in the market for one, i'd give this one a look over. also played a three pointer which was cool to look at, and better than the other one of these i've played which was pretty dead. 

once again, i'll note - this is a great shop not to be missed by those visiting the city. 

b

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## f5loar

Only prewar F5s had the long neck. The prewar F4,F2,F7,F10 and F12 had short necks. Big Mon got along fine with a short necker (F7) for many, many years before discovering the power of the long neckers.

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## Bob A

I understand Mr Grisman had an F10, which he agonised over converting, because of the rarity. The short neck places the bridge in the wrong place, too close to the tailpiece. While the instrument may be interesting in its original configuration, installing an F5 neck would no probably make it a better-sounding instrument.

And it's not like you're ruining a Stradivari; anyway, every Strad in existence has had neck replacement surgery for similar reasons. But I admit it takes a certain amount of nerve to take this route with a mandolin that will cost you 28 grand before conversion.

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## billhay4

bradeinhorn,
I don't believe you named the shop where you came across this one.
Bill

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## bradeinhorn

well...it's 28 grand so that's way off my radar, and i assume many others, except for the very serious. i hear the dawg is interested in this one. not sure he'll pony up though. 

the bridge being way back near the tailpiece is odd to look at. almost looks like the top is sinking, but it's just because it is on the down swing of the arch top.

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## Glassweb

The folks at Retrofret picked this mando up at the Christie's auction last month for about ten grand... perhaps another $2,500 with the ubiquitous "buyer's premium". Rare and cool as it may be, nobody in their right or left mind should consider paying $28K for this. Even at $15K you'd better really love the thing as there is not much demand for this type of instrument. With the appearance of all of these fantastic new mandolin luthiers comes choices. And with choices comes the devaluation of almost all vintage mandolins with the exception of Lyon and Healys, Loar era snakeheads, F4s and most certainly the Loar signed F5s and Master label Ferns.

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## bradeinhorn

> The folks at Retrofret picked this mando up at the Christie's auction last month for about ten grand... perhaps another $2,500 with the ubiquitous "buyer's premium". Rare and cool as it may be, nobody in their right or left mind should consider paying $28K for this. Even at $15K you'd better really love the thing as there is not much demand for this type of instrument. With the appearance of all of these fantastic new mandolin luthiers comes choices. And with choices comes the devaluation of almost all vintage mandolins with the exception of Lyon and Healys, Loar era snakeheads, F4s and most certainly the Loar signed F5s and Master label Ferns.


not sure i'd agree with that.

you don't need much demand for something that is basically the only known one available for sale (and one of arguably 3-4 in existence). the presence of fantastic new mandolin luthiers doesn't really come into the equation with someone interested in an instrument like this. the price is generated through its rarity and collectibility. all it takes is one person who really wants it to come along. retrofret and stores like it have incredible networks of instrument collectors and that is why they are able to ask and get top dollar for instruments like this f-10. It may sit around for a little while until that happens, but I'm certain it will go for something very near the asking price.

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## Jim Garber

To make it a little easier... here is one photo from the the Retrofret site.

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## dochardee

I just took another look at the Garcia/Grisman video 'The Thrill is Gone.' The mandolin Grisman was playing looked identical to this one but had a long neck. Did Grisman take an F10 and convert it?

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## bradeinhorn

he did.

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## h2o-X

This would be a cool mandolin if you scooped the extension, radiused and refretted the board with bigger wire, lost the pickguard, and put a James tailpiece on it.

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## bradeinhorn

it actually plays quite nicely. i'd tend to avoid those "upgrades" on this one.

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## lovethemf5s

Glassweb,
"nobody in their right or left mind should consider paying 28K for this."
Speak for yourself or add IMHO to your posts. Never give advice when MAS is concerned.

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## squirrelabama

Steven- as per usual, you nailed it right on the head.

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## Glassweb

OK, FWIW,IMHO,LOL I still feel it'll sit forever at that price... IMHO. No, actually it's a very cool piece. I was told by a knowledgeable player and dealer that it sounds pretty good too.

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## markishandsome

I seem to recall a previous discussion about Retrofret's incommensurately high prices. "Proud of their merchandise" i believe was the phrase used. They might operate on the business model where if you charge twice as much as the next guy, people will think your product is twice as good.

IMHO, i think adding "IMHO" to every single post where someone expresses their HO is a little excessive, considering that is really the only purpose of this sort of discussion board: expressing one's opinions.  Glassweb was just stating his opinion and we're all welcome to take it for what it's worth.   YMMV

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## sgarrity

You'd have to find one heckuva passionate Gibson collector that just HAD to have one of these to part with that much dough. I seriously doubt this mandolin appeals to many players. There are just many, many options at that price point. And I do agree whole heartedly, that store is very proud of their merchandise.

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## uncle ken

It is cool looking but if I had 28K to blow on vintage stuff I think I would look for a pre-war D-18 or maybe a F4, H4, K4 set.

I wonder what the guys at Gibson were doing back then when they came up with these short necked f holed models. It almost looks like they had leftover F4 parts that they needed to find a way to sell.

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## Glassweb

Funny to think that Monroe was playing an F7 before he played an F5 while the F5 was actually introduced years before the F7. The F10 seems to be a blacktop version of the F7 with fancy fingerboard and headstock inlays...

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## bradeinhorn

the neck is not like an f-4 neck at all though. much slimmer and rounder.

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## Brian Aldridge

I owned an F10 back in the mid 80s, in fact the one that is depicted in the Gruhn-Carter book. I must say, it did sound pretty darn good. I have also owned several F7s. I guess Gibson had a fair amount of F4 necks left over.

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## AlanN

Any idea how many F-10 mandolins were made?

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## cooper4205

> Any idea how many F-10 mandolins were made?


Looks like they were only made for three years in the mid-to-late '30s, so not too many I would think. The entry about them over at Mandozine (from Tone Poems) says there are only a three or four know to be in existence.


F-10

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## Paul Hostetter

Nice to see that mandolin. Dave Grisman brought that exact one and another in still-original condition by my place one time because he knew I had an L-10 guitar that matched. Though Steve Gilchrist did a masterful job on the conversion, of the two I greatly preferred the tone of the one with the original neck and bridge position. It's a great look for a mandolin in any case.

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## f5loar

Last time I saw one was at Gruhns about 1986 when he had a trio of prewars: F-7,F10,F12. The F12 sounded the best to me back then.

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## Darryl Wolfe

I've owned an F7 in the past. #At that time they were worth 33% of a Loar ($2500 vrs $7500) and a Loar era F4 was $1500. I would never fully reneck one, but I am not totally against the plices neck deal that you see on quite a few (Duffy's F-12 and many others)

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## BradKlein

Ive played the mandolin in question, and it has a fantastic and unique sound. Its quite unlike any other vintage Gibson that Ive played. Not a Loar, not an A, F-4, three point, etc. It really has its own gutsy and quite pleasing sound. I wish that I could own it.

As for those obsessing over Retrofrets pricing, they simply dont understand the difference between buying on e-bay, or through the classifieds, and buying through a reputable dealer who repairs, sets up, and stands behind their merchandise. Both approaches have their place, but they are just not the same thing. (That point will be obvious to most Café members, but it bears repeating.) 

These are talented, knowledgeable folks over at Retrofret. Im grateful to have such a dealer in NYC.

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## Glassweb

Some of us actually do understand the differences regarding point of purchase and we still feel it's way overpriced. Perhaps some rock star may walk in and have to have this cool-looking piece (actually a pretty likely scenario), but most mandolinists and collectors would walk on by at that price. $28K will buy at least a few great mandolins...

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## Gary S

Gruhn has a 37F-7 for sale for $15,000.

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## Glassweb

Yep... and it has been sitting there for a long time...

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## markishandsome

> As for those obsessing over Retrofrets pricing, they simply dont understand...


Looks like someone got up on the high side of the horse this morning. I'm not obsessed with retrofrets prices, I haven't really even examined their website very thoroughly. But you don't have to look too hard to see that their prices are high even compared to other reputable dealers who repair, set up, and stand behind their merchandise. Don't assume we're all a bunch of rubes just because we're not from the big apple.

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## BradKlein

Perhaps my previous comment on pricing should have been stated a bit more carefully. I dont mean to criticize any particular poster on this, or other threads.

My points are really two, and again, they are understood already by most here, but maybe they bear repeating.

One, is that it can be a very good deal, buying an instrument from a reputable dealer, and paying them a reasonable price for all the services they provide. 

Pricing rare and desirable instruments is really another question entirely. When you only need one buyer it makes sense to start high and work your way down. Matters of condition and rarity are greatly magnified in their effect on prices in these cases too, and that explains the difference between this mandolin and the Gruhn, for example. 

The great thing is that any interested party is free to determine the price that works for them... and then go ahead a make an offer. Thats how it works. (And that's why we 'onlookers from afar' seldom know the real price that rare instruments sell for.) Or buy a contemporary mandolin (or four) if that is what floats your boat.

Anyway, check out the very well researched, and stylish site at www.retrofret.com - and if youre like me, youll learn something and be glad that dealers like Steve and his crew are in business. I wish that more high end dealers supplied such informative descriptions. 

(no personal financial interest in this of course)

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## bradeinhorn

> #Don't assume we're all a bunch of rubes just because we're not from the big apple.


cmon....no one was making that insinuation. that's a little juvenile i think.

i agree with bradK. retrofret is a great and truly unique store with highly knowledgeable sales people and highly talented luthiers. their collection of instruments is absolutely top notch, and their policies are quite fair. I've known them to take back instruments after very long trial periods that other stores wouldn't dream of agreeing to, and additionally, they are very reasonable when it comes to working out financing.

as to their pricing, i don't really think it should be an issue of public debate. if you think a price is too high for something, don't buy it. market value is what a reasonable buyer, not under desperate circumstances, would pay for a good that has been on the open market for a reasonable amount of time. This store moves a ton of expensive instruments and has been doing so for decades. I think they have a pretty good idea of what people will pay. Will you get a steal there? Most likely not. If that's what you're looking for, try a less reputable, trustworthy and ultimately less secure seller.

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## markishandsome

> cmon....no one was making that insinuation. that's a little juvenile i think.


No name calling please.

Mr Klein seems like a reasonable guy and I don't think he was trying to insinuate anything. I did find his first post a little condescending, however, and I thought I saw a bias on his part that I've seen in a lot of other condescending New Yorkers: the idea that NYC is the only place that matters and that people from elsewhere aren't a port of the "real world". Maybe that's not the case at all and I'm only exposing my own bias towards New Yorkers, but regardless I think he's off base.

Here's why:
Brad thinks that those of us who have stated that retrofrets prices are high don't know "how it works" and are comparing apples to oranges because we're used to buying things from less-reputable sources. 
On the other hand, I think many of us were in fact comparing apples to apples and thought that if this exact instrument were for sale at Gruhn's or MandoBros or Elderly or any other reputable dealer it would have a smaller price tag. Maybe not a lot smaller, but smaller. 
End of story.

I think we've all been speaking a little colorfully on this thread and made things a little too personal. We should try to be more respectful and not assume that someone who disagrees with us is ignorant or immature. 

Anyway, back to mandolins:
How do these compare to 12-fret f-hole A's made around the same time? Have any contemporary builders tried 12 fret F5s?

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## Glassweb

I used to own an F7 and it was really a lovely sounding instrument... no f-hole A-model Gibson could compare with it. I'm sure it's the same with this F-10 which, from what I've been told, is a very good sounding mandolin. Unfortunately, these short scale f hole, F style mandolins don't have the playability of an F5 due to their shorter neck and the bridge placement. I found it difficult to get mine to play in tune... which is ultimately why I sold it.
There's a reason Big Mon traded in his F7 for an F5, but then again... Tennessee Blues was recorded on his F7 and Bill never sounded better! Retrofret made a good play by acquiring that mandolin at the price they did. Eventually it'll sell... maybe not for what they're asking, but in the meantime it's providing them with a lot of good publicity both on and off the wall.

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## Jonathan Peck

> Maybe that's not the case at all and I'm only exposing my own bias towards New Yorkers, but regardless I think he's off base.


Please don't go there. BTW - why don't you try posting under your real name. Anonymous slams don't carry much weight 

-jonathan
from NYC

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## markishandsome

Mark is my real name. And yes, I really am quite handsome  . Since I'm not out to "slam" anybody I don't really care if it carries much weight with you. Unless either of the Brads want to contact me off list I consider our conversation wrapped up. Please don't stir the pot unless you have something pertinent to add.

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I too had a chance to play the trio Mr Wolfe mentioned at Gruhn's. These short necked instruments are nice but all of them didn't have the projection and the "being alive" that most of today's well built F5's have. There is always the issue today of how to spend one's money....a collector's piece or going for the more "practical" side of a better playing instrument...I for one would pick the sound over the collector value....

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## Brian Aldridge

I think it would be better to remove the original neck and install a new long-scale neck than to do the splice job. That way the original neck could be saved intact and original and re-installed if so desired. They do this with banjos all the time and I don't see it as being any more invasive than a neck reset. The rub is the original neck will never be re-installed due to the improved playability state of the mandolin.

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## Paul Hostetter

A significant difference between converted banjos and mandolins is the mark on the top where the bridge lives. When you change the neck on an F mandolin, regardless of how it's done, the bridge gets moved significantly. 

Of the two F-10s I mentioned earlier, which I played side by side, the one that had been converted by Steve Gilchrist included a refinish to conceal the previous bridge location. Again, it didn't sound nearly as good as the unconverted one.

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## Bernie Daniel

Well since the rest of the world commented on the F-10 I will too. #I agree the asking is seems to me too high -- unless the person who just has to have one comes along -- in which case the price is just right (or maybe too low).

I am sure it sounds great - like some 30's era Gibsons do. #But not all of them did as Bush's Hoss was not too great until it was improved by some homestyle luthiery by Norman Blake.

But how great can it be as total player's package considering the Grisman decided to convert his?

Would you rather have a 30's short neck F-10 or a new DMM with a few bucks left to buy strings and polish? #

Easy choice for me.

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## jefflester

I was going to post that I came across an F-10 on Musurgia, but I did a search first and came up with this thread. It's the same instrument and listing, Musurgia is some sort of companion site to Retrofret.

F-10 on Musurgia

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## Zigeuner

> on a fun trip to retrofret today to get a little tweak on the new mando, i got to play some cool old ones. the most unique among the bunch was an F-10 they just got in. very cool. it is all black, front, back and neck, and f-holed, but for some reason it has a short neck. it had a very neat boxey vintage tone and played great. i was expecting it to be more of a collectible, but i could see it being a nice player in the right environment. all on it is seemingly original, and apparently there are only a few known ones in existence, so that's pretty special. 
> 
> they recently got a very nice condition blacktop f-4 with gorgeous handel tuners which was one of the most impresive f-4s i've ever played. i typically don't care for this model but this one, i believe from 1913, is really quite nice. if anyone is in the market for one, i'd give this one a look over. also played a three pointer which was cool to look at, and better than the other one of these i've played which was pretty dead. 
> 
> once again, i'll note - this is a great shop not to be missed by those visiting the city. 
> 
> b


Hi, 

I'm a relatively new guy here. I happen to own a 1949 F-12. I've not heard the term "short neck" and "long neck" applied to these instruments yet. Could you please explain this reference? I'd appreciate it. 

Thanks in advance.

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## man dough nollij

> Speak for yourself or add IMHO to your posts. Never give advice when MAS is concerned.


FWIW, IIRC YMMV IMHO. LOL.

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## MandoBen

TANSTAAFL

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## cooper4205

> I'm a relatively new guy here. I happen to own a 1949 F-12. I've not heard the term "short neck" and "long neck" applied to these instruments yet. Could you please explain this reference? I'd appreciate it. 
> 
> Thanks in advance. #


they're talking about the F-12s that came before yours, they had shorter necks, fancy inlays and were discontinued in 1937. When they talk about short necks on them, they mean that they join at the 12th fret, like an old F4, instead of joining at the 15th, like the original F5s (and your F-12). #When they reintroduced it in '49, they were completely different. 


F-12 link

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## lovethemf5s

man dough nollij...quoting a last november post the following may. do you always move with such speed?

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## man dough nollij

Hey, I read from the beginning, since I wasn't here last November.

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## f5loar

There were a few post war F12's that were short neckers.
The first postwar catalog shows a short neck F12. I've only seen a few so he could have one. To say all post war F12s are long neck is in error.

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## Gary Hedrick

Hmmm all this angst over this small blip in Gibson mandolin history. They are what they are.......and they can charge what the market will bear. The bottom line in my opinion is that the true value of that design is.....Any builders out there making a short necked F5 style instrument.......perhaps....but darned few of them .....they aren't designed with the bridge in the right place for the best sound generation....

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## Zigeuner

> Originally Posted by  (Zigeuner @ May 21 2008, 23:43)
> 
> I'm a relatively new guy here. I happen to own a 1949 F-12. I've not heard the term "short neck" and "long neck" applied to these instruments yet. Could you please explain this reference? I'd appreciate it. 
> 
> Thanks in advance. #
> 
> 
> they're talking about the F-12s that came before yours, they had shorter necks, fancy inlays and were discontinued in 1937. When they talk about short necks on them, they mean that they join at the 12th fret, like an old F4, instead of joining at the 15th, like the original F5s (and your F-12). #When they reintroduced it in '49, they were completely different. 
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot! I learn something new every day. 

I've sort of discovered that the F-2's, F-4's, F-5's are the ones to have for the "collectors". The lowly F-12, even though festooned with the title "Artist Model" was apparently less popular due, partly anyway, to it's square, low fingerboard.

I was lucky enough to inherit my F-12 about 25 years ago and I have grown to love its sound. I'm not going on the road anytime soon so it will do for parlor jamming. Ha. 

Thanks again!

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## Zigeuner

Hi, 

I looked at the F-12 link showing a short-neck mandoln and was struck as to just how far back the bridge was set, Apparently the short-neck didn't allow for a more forward setting. Being curious as I am, I opened up the case and got a picture of my 1949 (long-neck) F-12. As you can can see, the bridge is just above the center notch in the F-hole whereas the short-necked version is quite a bit farther down, actually, almost to the bottom of the F-hole. Very interesting!

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## f5loar

No pick click on those post war F12s! Don't forget the many pros that started out with the post war F12s: Bobby Osborne, Jesse McReynolds,Doyle Lawson,Herschel Sizemore,
Nat Bray,Vernon Derrick to name a few.

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## Zigeuner

> No pick click on those post war F12s! Don't forget the many pros that started out with the post war F12s: Bobby Osborne, Jesse McReynolds,Doyle Lawson,Herschel Sizemore,
> Nat Bray,Vernon Derrick to name a few.


Yep, I knew there were some great players who played them. Thanks for the list. 

In any case, my F-12 is a keeper since inherited it from a favorite uncle. Although it was 34 years old when I got it in the early 80's, it was unplayed. 

I understand that 1949 was the startup year again for the F-12. It lost the inlay on the headstock but I will keep it and play it anyway.

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## f5loar

Actually 1948 would be the start up year for the F12 but more than likely the 6 that were made are all short neckers. A few 1949's are short neckers also. A big production number of 85 F12s made in 1949 but production back down to only 47 in 1950.

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