# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  You don't know a fiddle tune until...

## marcja

I had been building up my repertoire of fiddle tunes, getting them clean and up to speed, when my mandolin teacher (who I sit with every other month) proved to me, after a serious of thought-provoking questions and experiments, that I really didn't know any of those fiddle tunes as well as I thought. 

Here's what I'm slowly discovering to be a rubric for _really_ knowing a fiddle tune:
- Can you play it slowly, with a metronome and with clean, buzz-free notes, strong timing, and strict alternate picking (DUDU)?
- Can you play it equally well with reverse alternate picking (UDUD)?
- Can you play it up-to-speed, with relaxed hands, wrists, arms, and neck, without needing to stare at the fingerboard?
- Can you consistently control the amount of swing/shuffle in your playing?
- Can you "stay in your lane" -- that is, play the tune with another player or backing track without getting distracted by what they're playing?
- Can you easily play the tune three to four times through without stopping, flubbing, or tensing up?
- Can you transpose it to a different octave?
- Can you transpose it to a different key?
- Can you play it in both open and closed positions?
- Can you play all the chords of the tune and maintain a strong rhythm part for another player?
- Can you easily alternate between rhythm and lead without a break in rhythm?
- Can you play at least one melodic variant of the tune?
- Can you integrate double-stops or drones into the tune and still be on the right chord?
- Can you play a tag intro or tag ending to the tune?
- Have you listened to at least two different recordings of the tune?
- Have you attempted to learn and/or transcribe one of those recordings?
- Have you attempted to translate the way a different instrument (such as fiddle, guitar, banjo, pennywhistle) plays the tune to mandolin?

With all of these learning possibilities, suddenly a tune like "Red Haired Boy" seems like an a full-blown etude. Now the trick is to decide when to learn a new tune instead of digging deeper into one I already "know".

When do you feel you really know a tune? Do you agree with this rubric? What would you add or remove?

----------

Bhiyao, 

CHASAX, 

Mandophyte, 

stevedenver, 

Woodrow Wilson

----------


## Mark Wilson

I always thought it was mine when I could play it up to speed in a group of pickers I just met. 
It's nice to have more than one version. And a tag I guess

Past that I don't have time to think too much about it.

----------


## Mandobart

I think those are all great ideas, but IMO not knowing all of that for every tune doesn't mean you don't know a tune.  The keys to "knowing" to me consists of:  being able to easily play the tune three to four times through without stopping, flubbing, or tensing up; play at least one melodic variant; transpose it to a different octave; play all the chords of the tune and maintain a strong rhythm part for another player and easily alternate between rhythm and lead without a break in rhythm.

All the other items are part of all around proficiency and not specific to learning an individual tune.

----------

farmerjones, 

Jim Garber

----------


## foldedpath

Hello and welcome to the forum!

That sounds like maybe a good way to approach fiddle tunes from a Bluegrass perspective. On the other hand, I would disagree that some of those items would apply to anyone playing fiddle tunes in other genres like OldTime, or Irish/Scottish traditional music. 

The latter is what I mostly play these days -- Irish/Scottish/Cape Breton fiddle tunes. also pipe tunes shifted into fiddle register. The following items don't apply to most players in my musical world. They're fairly Bluegrass-centric:

_- Can you play it equally well with reverse alternate picking (UDUD)
- Can you transpose it to a different octave?
- Can you transpose it to a different key?
- Can you play it in both open and closed positions?
- Can you play all the chords of the tune and maintain a strong rhythm part for another player?
- Can you easily alternate between rhythm and lead without a break in rhythm?
- Can you play a tag intro or tag ending to the tune?_

Traditional Irish/Scottish music is played on mandolin the same way it's played by a fiddler in those traditions: in first position, not closed positions. We don't usually play rhythm mandolin in Irish sessions, although there are exceptions. The more valued skill is being able to play unison melody with the rest of the group. No tag intros or outros. Instead, the skill you need is smoothly switching tunes nonstop in the middle of a three or four tune set. For Irish and Scottish music, "knowing" a tune also means having it well enough under your fingers to add articulations (ornaments) around the main melody notes. 

It's just a different world of "fiddle tunes."  :Smile:

----------

Bertram Henze, 

Cindy, 

DataNick, 

GreenMTBoy, 

Jess L., 

MandoDave1, 

marcja

----------


## marcja

Thanks for the great clarification. You're right. Even though I do play some ITM, this list was clearly inspired by my experience with my Bluegrass-focused teacher. I also probably wouldn't think to apply the ones you highlighted to ITM.

----------


## foldedpath

I wanted to add one thing about transposing an octave:

That's actually a cool thing to do in one specific case for fiddle tunes played in OldTime or Irish/Scottish trad, and that's when a tune is in A (or A mixolydian) and the melody line sits mostly (or entirely) on the A and E strings. Many of the old piper-derived tunes are like that.

It's often possible to transpose tunes like that down an octave onto the G and D strings, with different fingerings. I do that sometimes when playing with session pipers (the indoor versions) because it makes the mandolin voice more easily heard. Cape Breton fiddlers use this idea frequently with tunes in A, to play octave variations in different repeats of a tune's A section.

For tunes other than those in A or A mix, you'll have to get into closed position playing to drop an octave, and you may not have room down there to do it. 
 :Smile: 

Edit to add: My fiddler S.O. just reminded me that in Cape Breton trad this is called a "low turn."

----------


## Bertram Henze

A TB player in our sessions sometimes switches up one octave by just shifting his hand above the 12th fret, but he leaves the open strings open (kind of Seamus Tansey style octave jumps), so it doesn't properly count as "transposition", I guess.

----------


## Mandoplumb

I doubt that there is a handful of players, professional or amateur, that know a fiddle tune if all that is a requirement. Even those that make their living playing must enjoy playing for the most part. To think I had to know all that before I "knew" a tune would make me pack up my mandolin and take up fishing.

----------

ajh, 

billykatzz, 

BJ O'Day, 

Cindy, 

DataNick, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Jess L., 

Mandobart

----------


## Michael Neverisky

> .... playing fiddle tunes in other genres like OldTime, or Irish/Scottish traditional music.... The more valued skill is being able to play unison melody with the rest of the group...



Well said. I would like to place some emphasis on unison playing. In the old-time world there are both historical variants of tunes plus whatever the current "alpha fiddler" has chosen to play. The key is listening and making real time changes to the way you learned the tune to match what the fiddler is playing.

----------


## mandocrucian

I like the way you think. 

You are *definitely on the right track* to improving your ear, your mental flexibility, and technical abilities. If you stay on the program, "positions" will replaced by the *unified neck*!

You omitted:
- Can you SING/VOCALIZE the tune?
- Can you transpose it into parallel minor (D into Dm) or minor modes  (and vice versa)?
- Can you transpose it into other time signatures (3/4, 6/8, 5/4, 7/8, 9/8 etc.) while maintaining the identity of the melody?


and you may want to add these as further exercises:
- Can you play it with only index and middle fingers? (index/ring, middle/ring etc.)
- Can you play it on only one string (as much as possible)?
- Can you play it anywhere on the neck, starting with any finger or open string?
- Can you play it with the common fiddle bowing/slurring patterns? (This will open your ears to the world of articulation!)
- Can you play it with alternate plectrum patterns (all downstrokes, all upstrokes, Udud, DDUU, et.) and a RH that also incorporates use of the middle finger in addition to the pickstrokes?)  (This, along with the slurring, will develop independence between the two hands. Almost every classical violin etude will have 12+ bowings the piece is to be practiced with, not just one.)
- Can you transpose into another key AND another meter AND another position, etc. simultaneously? (This will test your mental flexibility and your ear>hand progress)

You won't have to practice _every_ fiddle tune with the multiple variations. You will be training your mind to have the ability to manipulate any tune 'on the fly'. It's like magic mushrooms for your fingers!

----------

F-2 Dave, 

Mandophyte, 

marcja, 

stevedenver

----------


## Earl Gamage

If you have the ability to practice two or three hours a day, you can get that good on every fiddle tune you know.  Thank goodness you don't have to be that good to enjoy playing.


> I had been building up my repertoire of fiddle tunes, getting them clean and up to speed, when my mandolin teacher (who I sit with every other month) proved to me, after a serious of thought-provoking questions and experiments, that I really didn't know any of those fiddle tunes as well as I thought. 
> 
> Here's what I'm slowly discovering to be a rubric for _really_ knowing a fiddle tune:
> - Can you play it slowly, with a metronome and with clean, buzz-free notes, strong timing, and strict alternate picking (DUDU)?
> - Can you play it equally well with reverse alternate picking (UDUD)?
> - Can you play it up-to-speed, with relaxed hands, wrists, arms, and neck, without needing to stare at the fingerboard?
> - Can you consistently control the amount of swing/shuffle in your playing?
> - Can you "stay in your lane" -- that is, play the tune with another player or backing track without getting distracted by what they're playing?
> - Can you easily play the tune three to four times through without stopping, flubbing, or tensing up?
> ...

----------

Bob Clark, 

Cindy, 

stevedenver

----------


## Mandobart

Well if we're going _this_ far (see Mandocrucian's and the original by marcja) we need to add the ability to play the tune left handed (or right handed if you already play lefty), the ability to play the tune backwards (starting with the last note and ending on the first), also be able to sing the lyrics backwards while playing it (like Steve Goodman) and of course you can't say you know a fiddle tune if you can't do all of the above on a fiddle.

----------

Cindy, 

Mandoplumb, 

Manfred Hacker, 

SincereCorgi, 

T.D.Nydn, 

Tom Haywood

----------


## bigskygirl

I consider myself knowing a tune if I can get thru it reasonably well at my local jam and maybe get some of the chords...then I cheat off the guitar player or fake it...some tunes we play I barely know but jump out there and try something anyway and have fun.

Seriously, in the quiet of the practice room I do dive into tunes deeper and have done a lot on that list with a lot of tunes but to hold myself to those standards for all tunes...I'd just not bother...

----------

Cindy, 

Mandoplumb

----------


## Jim Garber

I have been playing mandolin and fiddle for more than 4 decades. While I would not consider myself a virtuoso, I think I am a pretty competent player who can take (for instance) simple fiddle tunes and play them for listening or dancing pleasure.

I thoroughly agree that the list compiled above by Marc and Niles is worthwhile and an excellent way to dive into musical exploration. However, I would retitle this thread. I think that you can "know" a fiddle tune without doing all those things but it does improve your musicianship to certainly try these exercises and many would certainly improve your playing. In other words, I don't think you have to be able to do that long list of things in order to know a tune. I estimate that I probably know a few hundred tunes on both instruments which I can comfortably play in public or even in concert but I would never say that you have to do all those things in order to really know how to play those tunes.

In any case, I do love this list on this thread and will save it for further reference and to explore. Thanks to Marc, Niles and anyone else who wants to add to it.

----------

DataNick, 

marcja, 

Mark Gunter, 

Randolph, 

stevedenver

----------


## Denny Gies

You can play it backwards?  I don't know, just guessing.

----------

Mark Wilson

----------


## billykatzz

Yow!  I better sell my mandolin and take up the kazoo.

----------

Cindy

----------


## Randi Gormley

Huh. I read the list to my-husband-the-guitar-player and he said that the list was fine, but only the most dedicated of professional musicians can probably do all of that.

I figure I know a tune when I can start the thing for the other players in the session. A lot of the rest -- picking UDU or DUD, playing in different keys, playing without looking at the fretboard, playing a tune three or more times and not being distracted by what's going on around you, playing slowly (yes, even with a metronome) and keeping rhythm, playing or picking up a tune from another instrument, adding double-stops or countermelody -- all that is simply what happens when you play a long time, at least in ITM. Some of the other stuff -- chords or backup or taking a break and intros and outtros and backing up singers isn't part of the tradition, for me, and may be good technique but not useful to me when I play in session. So perhaps it might be interesting to make a list of what's needed to "know" a fiddle tune in each genre?

----------


## Jim Garber

> Huh. I read the list to my-husband-the-guitar-player and he said that the list was fine, but only the most dedicated of professional musicians can probably do all of that.


I am not sure that even most pro musicians can do that with every tune... well, maybe a few of the upper echelon... but do they need or want to?

I would boil it all down to a few of these that are important in general to playing music on this instrument, regardless of genre:

- Can you play it slowly, with a metronome and with clean, buzz-free notes, strong timing?
- Can you play it up-to-speed, with relaxed hands, wrists, arms, and neck, without needing to stare at the fingerboard?
- Can you consistently control the amount of swing/shuffle in your playing?
- Can you transpose it to a different octave?
- Can you play it in both open and closed positions?
- Can you play at least one melodic variant of the tune?
- Can you integrate double-stops or drones into the tune and still be on the right chord?
- Can you SING/VOCALIZE the tune?
- Can you play it anywhere on the neck, starting with any finger or open string?
- Can you play it with the common fiddle bowing/slurring patterns? (This will open your ears to the world of articulation!)

Some of the other stuff I consider parlor tricks and while they do have their usefulness in working on your musicianship, are not all that necessary in learning traditional folk genres or, for that matter really any genre -- even jazz or classical.

I actually find that if I hear a tune on a recording, video or in person, I can actually visualize where my fingers are placed as well as the phrasing. That also comes from playing fiddle tunes for a long time.

----------


## foldedpath

> I would boil it all down to a few of these that are important in general to playing music on this instrument, regardless of genre:
> 
> (snip)
> 
> - Can you transpose it to a different octave?
> - Can you play it in both open and closed positions?
> - Can you play it anywhere on the neck, starting with any finger or open string?


I would still take issue with that "regardless of genre" part. There are plenty of folk traditions involving fiddle-based tunes where playing out of first position is simply not required or relevant. 

In some cases, like Irish trad, you will actually limit yourself by playing a fiddle tune further up the neck. Not only because you won't be playing it with anyone else, but because you won't have access to open string drones, or certain ornaments that only work well in first position.

Irish, Scottish, and related OldTime fiddle tunes have been played in first position on fiddle for hundreds of years, and for a number of reasons. First, it's folk music and easier for amateurs to stay in first position. Second, the tunes are primarily based on the keys of D and G with their related minors, which falls naturally under the fingers in first position. Finally, first position playing in those specific keys allows the use of open string drones, and frees up the fingers to play the very complex ornaments that have developed in the tradition (at least for Irish and Scottish trad, not so much for OldTime). 

If a fiddler playing OldTime or Irish trad never leaves first position, then there is no reason for a mandolin player to do it either. Not unless they also want to learn to play Bluegrass, Blues, Jazz, or one of the other "fiddle tune" traditions like Klezmer or Roma music where you need it. 

I know we've all had variations of this discussion before. There are proponents of being a generalist mandolin player who feel you're not complete as a musician unless you have full mastery of the neck, transposition, etc. Then there are those who like to dive deep down the well of a single folk tradition, learning only the relevant techniques. You can probably tell which side of that divide I land on. 
 :Smile:

----------

DataNick, 

Jess L.

----------


## T.D.Nydn

Not just with fiddle tunes,but that Calace piece also,,you got to be able to play that backwards  if you ever want to be somebody...

----------


## marcja

Niles, thanks for the supportive ideas! A few comments/questions:




> - Can you transpose it into parallel minor (D into Dm) or minor modes  (and vice versa)?


Reminds me of how tunes like "Shady Grove" and "Cold Frosty Morning" can be played in both major and minor/modal keys...




> - Can you transpose it into other time signatures (3/4, 6/8, 5/4, 7/8, 9/8 etc.) while maintaining the identity of the melody?


I had to think about this one for a bit. Imagining how I'd play "Whiskey Before Breakfast" in 3/4 time took a while, but once it came to me, it sounded pretty cool. Worth exploring.




> - Can you play it with only index and middle fingers? (index/ring, middle/ring etc.)


Is the point here to practice position shifts and slides (beyond finger strengthening)?




> - Can you play it with the common fiddle bowing/slurring patterns? (This will open your ears to the world of articulation!)


I had actually considered this one before, but I haven't figured out how to do it yet. Do you emulate the bowing patterns through accents? picked legato runs separated with a staccato? hammer-ons/pull-offs? All of the above? I recall a Bill Monroe interview at the end of "Live Recordings 1956-1969: Off the Record Volume 1" where he is asked to attempt to do a fiddle shuffle on mandolin. Got to give that another listen...

In retrospect, I agree with Jim Garber that this thread would have been better titled, "How to extract the maximum learning potential out a fiddle tune" or similar.

----------


## mandocrucian



----------


## Manfred Hacker

So many notes, so little time .... :Mandosmiley:

----------


## catmandu2

> Numerous things...
> 
> You train your mind to get past the rehearsed finger habits. You want to get to the point that it doesn't


Jazz is a potent form - art a language (and salvation).

----------


## Jim Garber

> I would still take issue with that "regardless of genre" part. There are plenty of folk traditions involving fiddle-based tunes where playing out of first position is simply not required or relevant.


Your points are well-taken, FP. I have been lately playing lots of old time tunes with variations on standard parts either played an octave lower or octave higher without actually leaving first position. That certainly goes for OT times played in key of A cross tuning on fiddle which is quite easy but i also do it in standard tuning in other keys as well.

Certainly, it is not necessary to do so in these trad genres but is not a bad exercise to work on your chops. I have heard some ITM fiddlers play in upper positions tho I agree that it is probably as common as OT players.

----------


## Jess L.

First of all, let me say that I'm no expert, I'm just getting back into mandolin after 30+ years of not playing, so I'm still pretty rusty. So anyway... 

About *changing from 3/4 to 4/4* etc, and *changing between minor and major*... 

I do stuff like that once in a while with various types of tunes, but it's just for *fun* and because I like experimenting with different sounds. 

As an example of *how such things might progress*,  :Laughing:   :Grin:  a while back at MandolinCafe Song-A-Week I set about to learn a tune in D minor, 3/4 time, but I wasn't happy with the 'mood' I was getting when I was playing it using the minor scale like it's supposed to be played. I wondered what it would sound like with some major notes instead of minor. So... 

*1.* As my first experiment with this tune, I *changed the tune from D minor to D major*.  :Disbelief:  This is mandolin and my wannabe-'tenor' (GDAEB guitar, capo'd at 5th fret to about 19-inch scale length or approx. 48.3 cm scale length):



_(or direct link)_

Hmm...

*2.* Then I found myself wanting to play it in 4/4 instead of 3/4, it just seemed like it might fit ok that way... here it is *changed from 3/4 time to 4/4* time,  :Disbelief:  *WARNING*, NOT TRADITIONAL  :Disbelief:  and has oddball fun canned backing track:  :Grin:   :Laughing:   :Smile: 



_(or direct link)_

*3.* Lastly, I buckled down and tried to learn the tune *the way it's written, sort of*...  :Whistling:  the following video is the best I could do with a quasi-'normal' version of the tune... meh... I just don't like the minor-key sound on my mandolin, I like the other versions better: 



_(or direct link)_

So in _this_ particular case, I can't say that such tinkering helped me to learn the *original* tune better, because it turns out I prefer playing my odd variations more than the original.  :Whistling:   :Laughing:   :Mandosmiley:  Nevertheless, it's fun to experiment with the different possibilities.  :Smile:

----------

BJ O'Day, 

Woodrow Wilson

----------


## Jim Garber

This is a very thought-provoking thread. I think the basic premises as outlined by the OP need to be divided into two areas:
The learning, playing and possibly performing of fiddle tunesa more general goal of increasing musical skills
So, yes, if all you want to do it to play ITM or OT or even, say, Swedish or other trad musics and play them simply and traditionally, then there is no need, for the most part, to "fiddle" (sorry!) with these tunes in different keys or meters or whatever. However, if you want to delve further into the possibilities of your instrument then these simple tunes are useful as jumping-off point and etudes to get there. 

I think that is what the OP's teacher was getting at in that long list of possible ways to "know" a fiddle tune. However, as I mentioned already, I think it is more a path to "know" your instrument through these relatively simple tunes.

----------

DataNick, 

marcja, 

Woodrow Wilson

----------


## Woodrow Wilson

I think that some of you took the OP WAY too literally. Great post! :D There's almost always room for improvement, that doesn't make it necessary to learn a song on multiple levels, it just means that doors exist if we wish to take them. I could go out and buy a dozen new books, or I could look at the OP again and look at a few of my favorite books in a new light.

----------

marcja

----------


## foldedpath

> I think that some of you took the OP WAY too literally. Great post! :D There's almost always room for improvement, that doesn't make it necessary to learn a song on multiple levels, it just means that doors exist if we wish to take them.


Well, I don't know how advice like being able to play the same fiddle tune in both open and closed positions can be taken as anything other than literal. 
 :Smile: 

One has to be familiar enough with each fiddle tune tradition to know whether that's an appropriate skill to learn or not. 

And these doors you speak of, that open? I agree with the premise, but please realize that different and equally important doors open when one dives deep into a fiddle tune tradition and tries to play in a way that honors the tradition, instead of just banging out the notes. Fiddle tunes are not "simple" when you approach them that way.

Here's an example. It takes just as much effort over a lifetime to reach this level with "simple" fiddle tunes, as it does to be a great Bluegrass or Jazz improviser moving all over the neck. This set of jigs is far more than the notes on the page:

----------

DataNick, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## ajh

C'mon.  Really?  Just play!

----------

MikeyG

----------


## Drew Egerton

Can you play it in a box?
Can you play it with a fox?
In the dark? On a train? In the rain? With a goat? On a boat?

 :Laughing: 

My serious answer to this is, can you play it and sound LIKE YOU? One of the many little things that struck me at the Alan Bibey camp was that Alan could play whatever random fiddle tune we picked to jam on and it sounded like Alan's style. I'm guilty as anybody for trying to emulate my favorite pickers and licks but I am always impressed when somebody can put their own unique flavor in a tune rather than just playing the "standard" way.

----------

Jess L., 

Mandoplumb

----------


## Jess L.

> Can you play it in a box?
> Can you play it with a fox?
> In the dark? On a train? In the rain? With a goat? On a boat?
> 
>   ...


 :Laughing:  



 :Laughing:   :Grin:   :Smile:  




> ... My serious answer to this is, can you play it and sound LIKE YOU? One of the many little things that struck me at the Alan Bibey camp was that Alan could play whatever random fiddle tune we picked to jam on and it sounded like Alan's style. I'm guilty as anybody for trying to emulate my favorite pickers and licks but I am always impressed when somebody can put their own unique flavor in a tune rather than just playing the "standard" way.


Good point. Comes with experience I guess. And lots of practice.

----------

Drew Egerton

----------


## Bertram Henze



----------

Jess L.

----------


## AlanN

> My serious answer to this is, can you play it and sound LIKE YOU? One of the many little things that struck me at the Alan Bibey camp was that Alan could play whatever random fiddle tune we picked to jam on and it sounded like Alan's style. I'm guilty as anybody for trying to emulate my favorite pickers and licks but I am always impressed when somebody can put their own unique flavor in a tune rather than just playing the "standard" way.


So true, buddy.

Imitate
Emulate
Innovate

That's it, right there.

----------

DataNick, 

Drew Egerton, 

Jess L., 

Mark Wilson

----------


## JeffD

I think the most important item, in either the OPs list or Mandocrucian's list - is can you sing the tune. To my mind that is the criteria which differentiates knowing the tune from not knowing the tune.

It is even possible to play a tune you don't know. I do it all the time, as when sight reading. 

You work to be able to play what you can sing, or to be able to play it starting somewhere else on the fret board, or to decorate it interestingly or whatever. But all those things are "knowing the mandolin". What is essential, to my way of thinking, is "knowing the tune".  If you can sing the tune, you can get to work on all the rest as may be needed. 

If you can't sing the tune, you don't know the tune. IMOYMMV etc., etc.

----------

Jess L., 

jshane

----------


## AlanN

And to further that...even if you don't know the tune, my criteria for assessing someone's musical worth is, can you play it? It goes around one time, maybe the guitar kicks it, or the fiddle. When it comes to you, can you play a convincing thing? It's what I look for in jamming situations.

----------

farmerjones, 

Mandoplumb

----------


## farmerjones

Y'know, at first it sounds like an argument put before a fiddle tune collector.  And I've read and been involved in building repertoire. 
I'm starting to think it's sort of a standard/normal stage of development.  And there is a lot of value to collecting tunes because of what you learn with each.  It's a common way to develop technique. Otherwise there would be no such thing as etudes. but as the discussion/thread progressed so does one's approach. Sure, at one point I knew maybe a couple hundred tunes.  Now-a-days I know maybe twenty or thirty, the rest I can re-learn in a round or two. The best part is, I can relearn stuff I never knew to begin with. How many times has it happened. The song/tune ends. We've been a jamming away. Either me or somebody else will ask, "What was the name of that one?" This is the point where it becomes a speak-able (sing-able for JeffD) language.

----------


## Mark Seale

> Well, I don't know how advice like being able to play the same fiddle tune in both open and closed positions can be taken as anything other than literal. 
> 
> 
> One has to be familiar enough with each fiddle tune tradition to know whether that's an appropriate skill to learn or not.


When is developing skills ever not appropriate?  Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you would DO it.  I absolutely agree that traditional music, when performed, is most appropriately done in a traditional manner.  Developing skills in order to go deep in any tradition requires knowledge of your instrument and music.  The list of items from the original post are designed to increase musicianship and knowledge of your instrument. Is it a requirement for learning any given tune, of course not, but being able to develop the skill to do that and work through tunes in that manner increases your overall musical ability.

----------

marcja

----------


## Mandoplumb

I agree that everything you learn is beneficial and you can't learn too much. Just don't tell me I don't know a tune if I can't do all of the above. If OP wants to learn all that more power to him but I wouldn't continue to go to a teacher that stressed knowing all that to " Know " a tune. I play for my enjoyment and the enjoyment of those in the audience listening, and as has been said I doubt that there is anyone that plays for a living that "knows" many tunes if that is the definition of knowing a tune.

----------


## bratsche

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys _(*strings, frets)_ at the right time and the instrument plays itself.

- Johann Sebastian Bach

 :Grin:

----------


## JeffD

Following on from my initial statement - there are several good skills to develop:

being able to work out on the fret board what is in your head
being able to play a note a defined interval from another note, i.e. land on a note randomly - play a note a fifth higher, a third higher etc.
being able to work out the tune on the fret board from any fret

Those and a metric ton of other things are things I work on a lot, and struggle with in many cases. 

But those are mandolin skills. And we have our whole lives to develop mandolin skills. Other than playing music and changing strings, what else is there for a non luthier to do with a mandolin but learn skills.  :Smile: 



Tune learning / knowing skills:

Being able to sing the tune.
Being able to identify the intervals between the notes of the tune in your head, here is a fifth, there is a third, etc., 
Bing able to identify the chord changes in the tune in my head and what chords work where, (normally in I, IV V format).

These are also things I struggle with, especially the last two. I was born with an ability to quickly learn sequences and remember them, phone numbers, zip codes, arcane mathematical constants. And learning a tune till I can sing it is somehow not different in my head. I struggle with the other two skills however, and I see some progress.

----------

marcja

----------


## mandocrucian

It all hinges on how you define *KNOW*.

----------

farmerjones, 

Jim Garber, 

stevedenver

----------


## Jim Garber

> It all hinges on how you define *KNOW*.


So frightlfully true, Niles. That is the essence of the Mandocrucian philosophy, right? And the corollary: That all depends on how you define *HINGE*.  :Smile:

----------


## Bertram Henze

> It all hinges on how you define *KNOW*.


It all hinges on how you define YOU. Is it procedural memory, as usual, silently working (or not) and never reporting back, or is it declarative memory, always doubting if it is in control (and rightfully so)?

----------


## mandocrucian

There is *"know"* as *"acquainted with"*; on the other end there is *"know it inside out"*

Muscle memory isn't enough to _"know"_ a tune (imo); you may be able to play it (in that one particular key) by muscle memory, but if you can't hum/vocalize it without an instrument in hand, *it's just not in your head/ear.* I'd say that you were acquainted with the tune.

As far as the _"traditional fiddlers play the tune in the first position"_ response .....  What is ignored or unadressed is the articulation of the bow. You can have 6 fiddlers play the exact same tune with the exact same notes, and you'll get a couple of boring versions, a few decent ones, and maybe one that stands out.  Why? Because of the bowings (slurrings) accenting, phrasing, not to mention whatever ornamentations(gracings, doublestops, drones). So *ask yourself.....WHY* is _so-and-so's_ version, _your favorite_ or *the version?*

Sorry...the _"every-note-with-a-pickstroke"_ approach ignores that whole other aspect of playing the "tune". Look at a classical violin etude book - every piece will have instructions to play the notes with a dozen (or more) different articulations and bowings. Their underlying reasoning for this is to make the violinist technically proficient to regurgitate written /arrangements/scores that his/her ensemble is to perform. But, for the *traditionally oriented player*, these variations are there to let *you* experience/hear the various *phrasing effects and subtleties of the various bowings*. If you don't try them all out yourself....how the hell will you ever discover/realize the bowing(s) you like best, and what bowings bring out the soul of the tune in particular phrases/sections/note sequences?

Similarly, this also relates to playing the tune in different spots on the neck.  First, you increase your physical technical abilities, but playing certain phrases (especially with hammer-on/pull-off/slide slurrings) may be more physically do-able (fingering friendly) or sonically superior in say, 3rd position, or moving up (or down) the neck, or across-the-strings, or easier with alternate fingerings. If you stay in the first position, you'll *never* discover what the alternate positions can give you (and the tune). (A lot of Scottish fiddlers seem comfortable with playing up and down the neck, btw.)

When you get into improvising off the tune/melody, that's where all the practice with alternate scales and modes comes in handy. Also, something I neglected to mention earlier, being able to *play the harmony line to the tune both above and below the tune*. What is a harmony other than motivic imitation?  Easing from straight melody into harmony lines and back - the listener can still recognize the raw material and relate your variation (or improvisation) the basic tune.

OK, so you can make your list of 20, or 30, etc. tunes that you can play (in one key, in one setting) - (and I admit used to do that same thing 40 years ago; it's probably universal) - but it's really a list of tunes that you are *getting acquainted* with.  That saying about _"Seven years of learning, seven years of practicing, seven years of playing"_ is a lot more accurate than it sounds (now), but it probably won't really sink in until you put in your 20+ years on the instrument.

NH

----------

DataNick, 

Jim Garber, 

marcja, 

stevedenver

----------


## catmandu2

Re M-crucian's..

While my involvement with 'fiddle tunes' is no doubt highly typical by the aforementioned criteria (I play basically one version, in one key, etc. - notwithstanding my penchant for playing tunes on several trad instruments), I think my compulsion to explore in this way is assuaged by other means - other forms and mostly on other instruments.  Were I not involved in exploration in other (than 'fiddle tunes,' per se) musical realms - if trad was my sole 'access,' I would probably engage in these mechanisms as described, in trad repertoire, etc., simply to assuage fundamental impulses.

For me, Niles is essentially explicating methods and approaches of assuaging curiosity - imo the most prolific impulse in musical development and creativity - via the form (fiddle tunes).  i would tend to agree, in that - a given form is the effective means of transmission (heuristic), given one's fluency and/or immersion in that form.  Trad is of course not typically the first musical form one thinks as the means of exploration - there's probably a relative lack of established pedagogy in such approaches (as Niles advocates here).

WRT -'why?'  Some folks like to play a tune; others like to explore.  There are certainly benefits to be gleaned from exploration.  If trad is what one does, it can be an effective vehicle.

----------

marcja

----------


## foldedpath

> When is developing skills ever not appropriate?  Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you would DO it.  I absolutely agree that traditional music, when performed, is most appropriately done in a traditional manner.  Developing skills in order to go deep in any tradition requires knowledge of your instrument and music.  The list of items from the original post are designed to increase musicianship and knowledge of your instrument. Is it a requirement for learning any given tune, of course not, but being able to develop the skill to do that and work through tunes in that manner increases your overall musical ability.


No, I disagree. It's a question of opportunity cost. 

The hours I would spend practicing scales, arpeggios, position playing and improvising up the neck are hours I'm not spending practicing my trad ornaments in first position, and figuring out how to express a tune on mandolin with the depth of understanding that Burke is using on those "simple" jigs in the video I linked above. Or any of the other musicians I follow now for ideas and inspiration... Matt Molloy, Mike Rafferty, and Sylvain Barou on flute, and too many fiddlers to name. Even a few pipers, although that's such an alien world... 

Anyway, for what it's worth, I do know how to improvise and move around on the neck on guitar, if only in the more limited extended Pentatonic patterns, not full-blown Jazz improv moving through chord changes. I used to be not too terrible at it for years, playing in Blues bands as lead guitarist. 

I understand that kind of thing, and more power to anyone who wants to go there, or go deeper into improv with an understanding of playing through the changes. But that was me, 20 years ago. I have no interest in doing that now on mandolin. It's not the music I'm interested in playing now. It has no application. And frankly, I wouldn't recommend anyone interested _only_ in delving deep into Irish trad to spend any time on it, when there is so much to learn in this one area. 

Maybe it's due to being on the wrong side of 60 now, but I'm appreciating the fact that none of us lives forever, and there is only so much time one can spend on one's music and one's instrument. I've made my choice, and it doesn't involve moving out of first position. So there.
 :Smile:

----------


## Mandoplumb

Mandocrucian said I know a tune when I can hum or vocalize it. With that definition I know a tune before I pick up a mandolin. That's the advantage of playing by ear, if I can't hum it I can't pick it. Given enough time I can figure out a tune from notation if I need to but it is very seldom that I do, I play by ear for the most part. Some points in the original post could be detrimental. Example. Pick DUDU and UDUD concentrate on that and you'll sone sound very mechanical. The fiddler that stands out is not bowing in any pattern why should our picking be. No harm in learning all that OP said his teacher said he had to but that is far past knowing a tune

----------


## catmandu2

> The fiddler that stands out is not bowing in any pattern why should our picking be.


There ARE patterns - individualistic and idiomatic.  Patterns vary - though some will vary less, and perhaps little at all among fiddlers of a region depending on plenty of factors - but there are fundamentals, rudiments and basic techniques - upon which we build our personal vocabulary, phrasing, inflection and nuance.  But yes there are patterns.  FWIW, Burke explains this in detail in his excellent Irish Fiddle instructional materials on DVD - highly recommended.  Further fwiw - Niles' point about experimenting with bowing is something I've always stressed in fiddle pedagogy - ultimately striving for 'independence' (a term from drumming, but contextually applicable here as well) - a facility with multiple patterns, enabling greater freedom of expression.  I try every pattern I can think of - to stretch my facility, generate ideas, isolate technical exercises, alleviate boredom, whatever...novelty is often a key to other aspects





> No harm in learning all that OP said his teacher said he had to but that is far past knowing a tune


Yes.  Using f-path's example: no one's advocating (i think) actually _playing_ trad as one would improvising a blues on guitar; yet aspects derived generally from _study_ can be of benefit.    Yet his point about 'taking away time from study elsewhere' is axiomatic.

----------

marcja

----------


## Mandoplumb

I know there are patterns, and yes they are fundamental and yes we should learn every one we can but after we learn them we should quit thinking about them and let our musical use of them or the habits developed take over. Listen to early Scruggs banjo and see if you can detect his rolls, I'm sure he knew every banjo roll but his music sounds freehand.

----------


## catmandu2

> I know there are patterns, and yes they are fundamental and yes we should learn every one we can but after we learn them we should quit thinking about them and let our musical use of them or the habits developed take over. Listen to early Scruggs banjo and see if you can detect his rolls, I'm sure he knew every banjo roll but his music sounds freehand.


Ah I see what you're saying.  Right, the goal of developing techne into intuition -

Might be said for all our pursuits ... a sort of alchemy.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Muscle memory isn't enough to _"know"_ a tune (imo); you may be able to play it (in that one particular key) by muscle memory, but if you can't hum/vocalize it without an instrument in hand, *it's just not in your head/ear.* I'd say that you were acquainted with the tune.


Being able to hum a tune is what I am taking for granted, so I forgot about that one. But that ability can be transferred into procedural memory as well (and will be recalled more reliably from there - did you ever find yourself humming some melody to yourself, subconsciously, while mowing the lawn, for instance?)

In other words: You don't know a tune, the tune knows you  :Cool: 
Or, in other words yet: You don't know the tune, you are the tune (and do you know yourself?)

----------


## mandocrucian

The *whole point* of developing the *ear>hand connections* is so you can *play what you think*, or remember, or are hearing at the moment (if it's an unfamiliar tune, or one that needs refreshing in your memory.)

This is not to say that if you are working up the tune as a _performance piece_, you won't be wise to take time to work up and practice a version(s) with all the phrasing/ornamentation/doublestop bells and whistles.  But your "ear" will direct you to what sounds _"right"._

As for various patterns applied to etudes/tunes: this is simply the most efficient way to integrate the coordination of the hands with various bowing/slurring patterns  (i.e. Down-hammer Down-Up; D-h D-h; DU D-h; D-U-h-u etc. etc.)  It's also training your hands to follow the articulation/phrasing in your head/ear.  Once you've gotten comfortable with playing various bowings, your ear will take over and start spontaneously mixing them up for the optimum *flow* for the tune.

There are hundreds or tunes that I *know* including the ones I've played for ages on mandos.  I still "know" *the tune* even if I can't play it up to _performance speed_ on concert flute without physically practicing it for the digital dexterity. It's just that the hands don't respond _quickly enough_ to the ear/memory on a physically different instrument.

----------

marcja

----------


## Bertram Henze

> The *whole point* of developing the *ear>hand connections* is so you can [B]_play what you think[/_B], or remember, or are hearing at the moment (if it's an unfamiliar tune, or one that needs refreshing in your memory.)


Aha, the meta-level. I kind of can do that for doublestop accompaniment (and all chord accompanists in ITM sessions should be able to do something like that in order to not annoy the melody players). This is more generic than just knowing a tune, it's knowing the blueprint of the genre, so to speak.

----------


## Cindy

I can play it outside my house without totally choking and bursting into tears. :Grin:

----------

Bertram Henze, 

FatBear, 

Jess L., 

Jstring, 

marcja

----------


## JeffD

> I can play it outside my house without totally choking and bursting into tears.


Love it.

----------


## catmandu2

Now that I think - don't quote me on the k Burke material I invoked above going on so much of varying regional styles etc - i dont remember .. probably not...but a superb tutorial for bow stroking : )

----------


## jshane

My musical goal is to be able to reproduce on the mandolin, anything that I can hear/imagine in my head. 

So, I guess I figure I know a tune (fiddle or otherwise) when I can make a series of sounds emanate from the mandolin that do not differ from the (imaginary) sounds emanating from.... wherever they come from...in my head.  So, I guess I am only interested in playing a song backwards if that happens to be what I "hear" in my head, and want to reproduce it.... hasn't happened yet. I HAVE played songs in alternative modes/scales at times, but not because I thought, "Hey, lets try this is Dorian..."  but rather because I "heard" it differently, played it that way, and later found out that I had "heard" it in a different mode. That is, the understanding happened after the event. I like understanding music, but I like experiencing it and playing it better.

I hasten to say that I have not perfected this ability, by any means--- I am strictly a mediocre mandolinist--- but it is now what I spend my time practicing (often in the context of learning how to play specific songs the way I "hear" them.

----------


## farmerjones

> My musical goal is to be able to reproduce on the mandolin, anything that I can hear/imagine in my head. 
> 
> So, I guess I figure I know a tune (fiddle or otherwise) when I can make a series of sounds emanate from the mandolin that do not differ from the (imaginary) sounds emanating from.... wherever they come from...in my head.  So, I guess I am only interested in playing a song backwards if that happens to be what I "hear" in my head, and want to reproduce it.... hasn't happened yet. . . .


If I hear a melody, an ear-worm type melody. By the time I get an instrument in my hands, chances are it will come out in D. Then after playing in D for however long. I'll find out the original version is in the key of X. So i'll move it over to the key of X. I didn't even know this was called transposing, for several years. Some people think it's difficult, I did it out of ignorance or necessity.
  I have the problem of curiosity, with things like Music Theory. Sometimes I really have to shut all that off. Like watching a guitar players hands to learn a tune. It's better if I shut my eyes, or turn away. That way my ears will engage and override my eyes.

----------


## Mandobart

On the subject of transposing fiddle tunes to different keys - I know I risk angering some of my fellow bluegrassers here - but there are several cases of near identical tunes whose only difference is the key.  At Tuesday's jam the fiddler calls "Sally Anne" in A, which is the exact same tune as "Sail Away Ladies" normally played in G.  So when you move the intervals of a given fiddle tune to another key do you now "know that tune better" or have you just started to learn a new tune?

----------

farmerjones

----------


## Mandoplumb

My side of the ridge Sally Ann and Sail Away Ladies are not the same tune, not exactly even the same chord progression.

----------


## JeffD

> My side of the ridge Sally Ann and Sail Away Ladies are not the same tune, not exactly even the same chord progression.


Yep.

----------


## UsuallyPickin

Until you can remember the title and the melody at the same time....... R/

----------

Cindy, 

Jstring

----------


## JeffD

> My side of the ridge Sally Ann and Sail Away Ladies are not the same tune, not exactly even the same chord progression.


I was messing around last night and "dang" they are pretty close. I never noticed that. I learned them separately, I decorate them separately with separate emphasis, and nobody has thought they heard one when I played the other, and yet when I put them next to each other, I can see how they are related.

----------


## farmerjones

It's my fault for not learning from the dots, but Sally Goodin, Katy Hill, and Jenny Lynn, and to some extent Sally Jonson. While yes, they are in different keys, I have to play them in their respective key to separate them melodically.  I think Mr. Monroe commented,  or rather did not comment upon such, at one time. 

So you'll get no trouble from me Bart.

----------


## AlanN

I thought Sally Johnson and Katy Hill were identical melodies and both in G, only the title differed east or west of the Mississippi River.

Lost Indian and Cherokee Shuffle (D and A) are essentially the same numbers, with slight emphasis diffs.

----------


## Mark Wilson

> Lost Indian and Cherokee Shuffle (D and A) are essentially the same numbers, with slight emphasis diffs.


cool.  I just learned a new fiddle tune in 15 secs.

----------

Cindy

----------


## Mark Gunter

> cool.  I just learned a new fiddle tune in 15 secs.


 :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Mark Seale

> I thought Sally Johnson and Katy Hill were identical melodies and both in G, only the title differed east or west of the Mississippi River.
> 
> Lost Indian and Cherokee Shuffle (D and A) are essentially the same numbers, with slight emphasis diffs.


Sally Johnson has an E chord in it (in Texas and contest fiddling) and that separates it most from Katy Hill.

----------


## AlanN

Here is what Dawg has to say about these 2 tunes, from his cool little book 10 Tunes in 9 Keys....and it looks like an Em is in Sally Johnson

----------


## Jstring

....you can play it on the fiddle??

----------

Cindy, 

Jess L., 

jshane

----------


## Steve L

My story is similar to Foldedpath's and I agree with his statement about opportunity cost.  I started out as a guitarist and have a decent facility with scales, harmonic structure, ability to play single lines and chords all over the neck, transpose, etc.  In many ways I came to the mandolin to not do that, I wanted to play only what I wanted to play for the pleasure of playing it.  When I decided to play Traditional Irish Music the mandolin, in which I had no previous interest,was a good choice as I had the technical facility of fretted strings but the tuning and fingering wouldn't allow me to just fall back on what I already knew.  The mandolin, which I've come to love, was simply a tool...a means to a specific end.

I've had opportunities to play outside the idiom with some outstanding musicians and I take that very seriously and learn what I need to know as well as I can play it.  But I can't for the life of me see what I would really gain sitting around playing The Green Fields of Rosbeigh in all 12 keys up and down the neck.  I admire that some people can do that, but I really don't "care". I'd rather listen to 12 different versions of the tune played on various instruments and incorporate the variations, ornaments and phrasing while playing the tune in ways people are actually going to play it. 

 I'm on the wrong side of 60 too and I could learn a lot of tunes that have actual currency in my chosen idiom in the time it would take me to satisfy some grim,abstract  construct of what constitutes "musicianship".

----------


## ralph johansson

> There is *"know"* as *"acquainted with"*; on the other end there is *"know it inside out"*
> 
> Muscle memory isn't enough to _"know"_ a tune (imo); you may be able to play it (in that one particular key) by muscle memory, but if you can't hum/vocalize it without an instrument in hand, *it's just not in your head/ear.* I'd say that you were acquainted with the tune.
> 
> 
> 
> NH



I've never really understood this emphasis on singing. If I can't sing a tune it's because of my lack of singing ability, I suppose - which is one reason I've concentrated on playing  instrumental music on  the guitar and mandolin.

 Actually, what attracted me to fiddle tunes 50 years ago was the high degree of mobility that makes them all but impossible to sing, even when transposed to a lower octave. And my main motive for learning the mandolin, after about 10 years of guitar, was the advantage of  tuning in fifths- on the guitar there were too many string crossings. 

My main source was Howdy Forrester's album "Fancy Fiddlin' Country Style" and the first tunes I transposed were Brilliancy, with a total range of two octaves plus a fourth, and Rutland's Reel, which covers two octaves within the first four bars, and has a descending two-octave run over little more than one bar. Quite a challenge for even a well-trained singer and out of reach for me. Anyway, these tunes, with their combination of arpeggios and scale-wise movement helped me build a repertoire for soloing in an old-time and bluegrass context. Today I'm not that interested in that stuff anymore, I'm looking for a greater variety of note values, rest, and phrasing devices, and sometimes a more percussive approach to soloing

----------


## catmandu2

> I've never really understood this emphasis on singing. If I can't sing a tune it's because of my lack of singing ability, I suppose - which is one reason I've concentrated on playing  instrumental music on  the guitar and mandolin.


The idea is not so much about the _aural product_ of singing - indeed, it could be hummed, grunted, or any sound one makes - but rather, that one _conceptualizes_ (intervals, melodies, etc); typically, 'singing' is the most direct path for techne to express psyche.  The same pedagogic emphasis - of singing - exists in jazz, for bassists and drummers, for example.  So, it's not so much about your vocal technical chops as it is about cognition.

----------

farmerjones, 

Jim Garber, 

jshane

----------


## JeffD

> - but rather, that one _conceptualizes_ (intervals, melodies, etc); typically, 'singing' is the most direct path for techne to express psyche. .


Well said.

----------


## catmandu2

Even in horns, it's standard practice to emulate the physiology (with the throat, shape of the mouth, etc) of 'singing'/vocalization.  Might be of interest - pertaining to the above ..

*listening to Alice Parker (on 'on being'/Krista tippet), someone said, "There's an aspect of sound not realized until it is embodied in the human throat" (prphr).

Ms Parker iterated that - it - is all about "the sound" ( of singing/vocalization - from a nonrational perspective, etc).

----------


## Joel Glassman

These are all great things to do, but I don't agree they mean you "really" know a tune. Knowing a tune means being able to play it up to speed, clean and with consistency. Everything else is gravy :^) I suppose the "really" part for me is being able to play lots of melodic variations which are still recognizable as the tune.

----------


## catmandu2

> These are all great things to do, but I don't agree they mean you "really" know a tune. Knowing a tune means being able to play it up to speed, clean and with consistency. Everything else is gravy :^) I suppose the "really" part for me is being able to play lots of melodic variations which are still recognizable as the tune.


Certainly, especially from a rational standpoint.  Some of the reflections I mention above are coming from less overt angles - taking the word "know" in a more gnostic sense, perhaps.

----------


## jshane

I've been thinking about this thread....

What I think I have concluded is this:  If I knew a fiddle tune in the manner that some folks on this thread have suggested, then I would be able to "hear" the tune in virtually every possible incarnation and variation-- and if (BIG IF) I could play all of that extemporaneously, I would be able to "play anything I could hear in my head", which is actually my personal musical goal.

So, in that sense, knowing ONE fiddle tune to that extent would be the equivalent of knowing ANY fiddle tune (or any other piece of music, or improvisation) that I could imagine.

So-- COOL..... count me in.

----------

J Walsh, 

Tom Haywood

----------


## Tom Haywood

I asked a man once if there is a source for definitive transcriptions or recordings of fiddle tunes - a way to know the actual tune. He looked very puzzled about the question. Then he told me in a very definitive manner that it is all interpretation. So, I would say it is impossible to know a fiddle tune beyond your own interpretation at the moment. The OP's teacher and others here have given a comprehensive list of mechanical and mental practices that will expand your interpretive horizons. However, I would say your interpretation is just as valid as anyone's, no matter how well or little you know your instrument technique and music theory.

----------

bigskygirl, 

Jess L., 

Tobin

----------


## AlanN

And this is why the guys who transcribed and generously circulated fiddle tunes - when this music started taking hold and becoming popular some years ago (Dawg, Dave Peters, Niles, Joe Carr, among others) - would often include several 'takes' of the same tune, as picked by different musicians. Slight variations abound, and contribute to individual styles. It's all good.

----------

DataNick

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I would say your interpretation is just as valid as anyone's, no matter how well or little you know your instrument technique and music theory.


Yeah, we're sentenced to local views. It's a bit like saying "you don't know the universe until...".

----------

Mark Gunter

----------


## catmandu2

> Yeah, we're sentenced to local views. It's a bit like saying "you don't know the universe until...".


Tradition dictates parochialism of the mind.  Yet, in music there's a universe of opportunity to unbound oneself.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## Jstring

....you listen to how Kenny Baker plays it.

----------

bigskygirl, 

Jess L., 

Tom Haywood

----------


## Tobin

> I asked a man once if there is a source for definitive transcriptions or recordings of fiddle tunes - a way to know the actual tune. He looked very puzzled about the question. Then he told me in a very definitive manner that it is all interpretation. So, I would say it is impossible to know a fiddle tune beyond your own interpretation at the moment. The OP's teacher and others here have given a comprehensive list of mechanical and mental practices that will expand your interpretive horizons. However, I would say your interpretation is just as valid as anyone's, no matter how well or little you know your instrument technique and music theory.


Exactly.  Fiddle tunes are like soup.  There's no definitive definition of most fiddle tunes, just like there's no definitive recipe that defines potato soup or pea soup.  But we all know what pea soup tastes like and we know when we've eaten it, just as we can (mostly) recognize a particular fiddle tune when we hear it.  It loosely revolves around a melody and chord structure (if there are even chords that fit the tune, which many tunes will defy).  

Truly knowing a fiddle tune is all about capturing the essence of the tune, whatever that may be.  Some folks will completely change the chords, but the tune still works.  Some will play wildly different variations of the melody, but the tune still works.  Knowing all the different variations, or methods to vary the tune, while still being able to make it recognizable, is what's fun about fiddle tunes.  It's an art form in and of itself.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## Bertram Henze

Neo: _What is the tune_?
Trinity: _The answer is out there, Neo, and it's looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to_. 
 :Cool:  :Grin:

----------

Tom Haywood

----------


## Jess L.

> ....you listen to how Kenny *Baker* plays it.


 :Smile:  Or Kenny *Hall* too,  :Grin:   :Mandosmiley:  yup fiddle (in addition to the mandolin that he was more well-known for). Music starts about 0:46: 



_(or direct link)_

----------

Jstring

----------


## Joel Glassman

jshane--This has been my goal also, and I've been at it for about 40 years. Singing is the key. Johnny Gimble talked about improv. in an interview. "You need to be able to sing what you play and play what you sing". He does it here in a jazz solo which starts at 7:08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx1lNJ-jebc
Learning to sing along with every melody you can play on the instrument is a start. Learning a bunch of versions of common tunes [or Texas style fiddling, which incorporates them] is the next step. Getting very comfortable with departing from familiar melodies while playing them is another. Its building flexibility with melody. I make lots of exercise patterns with different intervals to try and stump myself too.

----------

mandocrucian, 

UsuallyPickin

----------


## sblock

You don't know a fiddle tune until...

1) You can name at least two more alternative titles for it.
2) You complain about the other ways they play it Down South, Out West, Back East, Up in the Hills, Back in the Old Country, etc.
3) You know at least five acceptable variations on the melody ...  plus five more unacceptable variations.
4) You can claim who learned it from whom, and so on down the line, covering at least three generations of fiddlers.
5) You dismiss certain phrases as coming from "the banjo version" or "the tin whistle version."
6) You ornament it  (or play it crooked) in such a way that few people can follow it, let alone "steal," your version. Only one person you regularly play with is able to accompany you.

 :Grin:

----------

bigskygirl, 

Mandobart, 

Randi Gormley

----------


## jshane

> ........ Singing is the key. ........


yep. I agree.  Both out loud, and "in your head"...

----------


## AlanN

> yep. I agree.  Both out loud, and "in your head"...


Yes to this. But...nothing drives me more batty than picking with someone who insists on audibly singing or humming the tune when others are taking a break. They do this because they will get lost if they don't do it. Hate it.

----------

farmerjones

----------


## Tom Haywood

A couple more thoughts that may have been stated already.

1. The style of playing the fiddle tune. The Irish style of playing differs in a lot of ways from the Appalachian style in terms of timing, melody note choices, and ornamentation. So, do we need to master the tune in every imaginable style - including jazz and hip hop - before we can claim to know it?

2. The key. Most fiddle tunes are traditionally played in particular keys. Since they generally are not sung, we have to ask why insist on a certain key. What I find is that each tune captures a particular technique, fingering, riff, or other musical statement, or two, to practice for improving one's violin playing. Trying to play that series of notes in another key or position is informative, but the technique is lost and it does not sound the same. So, I would add that knowing a fiddle tune involves discerning the technique that it teaches in it's traditional key and mastering that bit of technique or sound. Not so much playing those notes in another key or position.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## KarlinJackson

Great thread, regardless of "really knowing" a tune or not, this is certainly a great list of things to work on to improve your musicianship with tunes you already have in your bag

----------


## Bill Slovin

I think all of those things are good practice approaches but not necessary for every tune you learn. If you took one or two tunes that you knew well and went through that list of items you'd become a better player overall. You'd learn more of the fingerboard and would understand more about the attention to detail needed to play cleanly.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> ...improve your musicianship with tunes you already have in your bag


Very important. I have known many musicians who could barely stumble through their old tunes but were already working on a new one. And every month they would come into the session with ten new tunes to trainwreck.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## cb2859

This guy may never learn the tune!

----------

Jess L.

----------


## fatt-dad

Love the soup analogy for old-time tunes!!  Haha!!

Completely agree on, "Singing" the mandolin. The tune is the framework.  I'm not there!!

f-d

----------


## FatBear

> So true, buddy.
> 
> Imitate
> Emulate
> Innovate
> 
> That's it, right there.


You left out my specialty: Irritate.

----------


## Joel Glassman

> You left out my specialty: Irritate.


Extrapolate is an excellent descriptive word:
extend the application of a method or conclusion, to an unknown situation by assuming that existing trends will continue or similar methods will be applicable.

----------


## Stubs

Good grief I was playing for fun and to jam a few times with friends. If I have to play it forwards, backwards, up down, down up. I guess I'll just throw the mando in the fire place and take up knitting.

----------

Bob Clark, 

FatBear, 

Jess L., 

Mandoplumb

----------


## Bertram Henze

> ... and take up knitting.


Yes, but you don't know how to knit a pair of socks until...

----------

Bob Clark

----------


## AlanN

> The idea is not so much about the _aural product_ of singing - indeed, it could be hummed, grunted, or any sound one makes - but rather, that one _conceptualizes_ (intervals, melodies, etc); typically, 'singing' is the most direct path for techne to express psyche.  The same pedagogic emphasis - of singing - exists in jazz, for bassists and drummers, for example.  So, it's not so much about your vocal technical chops as it is about cognition.


Agree. I wouldn't call what Slam Stewart does singing (maybe closer to grunting), but he often vocalized his bass lines. And if you check out videos of the great Herb Ellis, he is seen moving his mouth (think Mumbles from Dick Tracy) when he solos. He was in the right band, as Oscar Peterson surely mumbled and grunted his way through his intricate solos.

----------


## ajh

Been watching this one with interest to see where it heads.  

My own take is that you "know" a tune when you can play with someone else/others...... mess up and get back into synch immediately.

----------

Cindy, 

Jess L.

----------


## FatBear

> Good grief I was playing for fun and to jam a few times with friends. If I have to play it forwards, backwards, up down, down up. I guess I'll just throw the mando in the fire place and take up knitting.


We're all different.  Some people are A+ personalities and actually enjoy going to the extreme.  I bet most of the really awesome players are of the A+ type.  Others of us are more easy going about things and just enjoy having some fun.  That's where I am, too.  Neither view is right or wrong.  There's room for all of us.  

If you do take up knitting, be sure and do it in 4/4 time.  Then you can at least double as the percussion session.

----------


## JeffD

You don't know a fiddle tune until you have forgotten it.

----------

Charlieshafer, 

Cindy, 

Mike Snyder

----------


## FatBear

> You don't know a fiddle tune until you have forgotten it.


By that criteria I know almost everything.

----------

Cindy

----------


## fatt-dad

> You don't know a fiddle tune until you have forgotten it.


I love it when folks call, "possum up a gum stump" 'cause I never can remember that melody!  After the first lap though, I'm all on board!  There are so many tunes like that I just don't care any more.  It's what makes a jam fun!  I typically practice what I'm recording or working on in my duet.  All that other stuff surfaces in jams and it's fun to return to memory lane!

f-d

----------


## Tobin

I never forget fiddle tunes.   I forget that I know them if they slip off my regular playing regimen,  and I seem to have a tough time remembering their names.  I'll even get rusty on the fingering or picking patterns.  I also forget how to get them started.    But the tune is always there,  ready to be played in my mind once I hear the first bar or two.   Like an old friend.

----------

Cindy

----------


## fatt-dad

> I never forget fiddle tunes.   I forget that I know them if they slip off my regular playing regimen,  and I seem to have a tough time remembering their names.  I'll even get rusty on the fingering or picking patterns.  I also forget how to get them started.    But the tune is always there,  ready to be played in my mind once I hear the first bar or two.   Like an old friend.


yes, I guess this is sort of me too.

f-d

----------


## ralph johansson

> I never forget fiddle tunes.   I forget that I know them if they slip off my regular playing regimen,  and I seem to have a tough time remembering their names.  I'll even get rusty on the fingering or picking patterns.  I also forget how to get them started.    But the tune is always there,  ready to be played in my mind once I hear the first bar or two.   Like an old friend.


Bill Monroe at U of Wisconsin, ca. 1966:

-Richard (Greene), we have a request here for Bucking Mule. You know that one?
-Uh, under some other name, probably.
-Well, we're gonna play it under the name of Bucking Mule.

Monroe kicks it off, and after one chorus of mandolin Greene enters forcefully. He may very well have learned the tune right there, on stage.

----------


## Jess L.

> ... My own take is that you "know" a tune when you can play with someone else/others...... *mess up* and *get back into synch immediately*.


Excellent point.  :Mandosmiley:  Being able to gracefully recover from errors and get back into the tune where it's at *now*, not where one left off. 

My piano teacher used to nag me about the fact that I would stop after making an error, I wanted to restart the piece, she said no, keep going, don't stop. It was hard to learn to do that! But her incessant encouragement to "keep on playing" finally had an effect and so I worked really hard to get over that hurdle, glad I did, it made it easier for my other music (like fiddle tunes). 

And as you said, getting back into sync *is* greatly facilitated by knowing the tune well enough to know where to quickly jump back in again after an error. Or at the very least, knowing or 'hearing' that particular tune's chordal structure well enough to play some harmless non-clashy generic notes (that don't conflict with the current chord) as filler for a few notes until you get your bearings and pick up the melody again.

----------


## farmerjones

> . . . .she said no, keep going, don't stop.


A valuable, valuable thing to learn. Also, as you said, a hard habit to break. Piano aside, fiddle tunes are dance tunes. So keeping rhythm is important. 

Seems once you get good at recovering, the need to do so diminishes. Then one picks up a new tune and the process starts again. But also play and enjoy tunes you consider you know already.  We keep learning subconsciously.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## Mark Wilson

> Seems once you get good at recovering, the need to do so diminishes.


 :Mandosmiley: 

Truth

----------


## ralph johansson

> A couple more thoughts that may have been stated already.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. The key. Most fiddle tunes are traditionally played in particular keys. Since they generally are not sung, we have to ask why insist on a certain key. What I find is that each tune captures a particular technique, fingering, riff, or other musical statement, or two, to practice for improving one's violin playing. Trying to play that series of notes in another key or position is informative, but the technique is lost and it does not sound the same. So, I would add that knowing a fiddle tune involves discerning the technique that it teaches in it's traditional key and mastering that bit of technique or sound. Not so much playing those notes in another key or position.


Indeed. Just look at the examples I posted earlier. That passage in Brilliancy for 2 1/2 bars alternates between fretted and open notes on the e string. If you transpose it to different key the effect is lost. Sailor's Hornpipe is played in several different keys, but the most natural (and possibly traditional) one is Bb because it offers nice phrase turns on the open d and a strings. Bluegrass guitarists for some odd reason like to play Beaumont Rag in C or D (capoing up), but really, the traditional key of F gives a lot more bounce because it offers a wealth of nice closed chord forms on the guitar. And, with two guitars, it separates their ranges better. 

Often the choice of key involves drone effects on open strings. I suppose that is the case with tunes like The Gold Rush and St. Anne's Reel. Hoswever, I find these effects less effective on mandolin, so I sometimes play these tunes a half step higher, in Bb and Eb, respectively. These keys have a very nice physical feel to them. And the keys of Bb and F may be the most versatile of all on mandolin, because you can combine open and 2nd position in intriguing ways.

Arkansas Traveler is traditionally in D, and guitarists like to use a capo on the second fret - I've found some nice effects and some very guitaristic stuff playing it open, including a high (just below the 12th fret) arpeggiated version of the 1st part.  On mandolin I don't find much of interest.

----------


## Charlieshafer

Not having read all the posts, this may be a repeat, but the whole point of fiddle tunes is not having to know this stuff. You just learn the bones of it and play. By ear, by sheet music, who cares. Once you're in a group setting, you just go with the flow. You know a few bowing patterns, or picking patterns, and just apply those when it sounds right. Moving up ir down a key or two, no big deal, it's all the same pattern when you have an instrument tuned in fifths, so you just have a different starting point. Some of the most influential string bands were just big happy messes, and that's the fiddle tune vibe, at least as far as old-time goes. yeah, ITM and Scots are more precise, and you can go that way if you want, but if it's not fun, it's not fiddling.

----------


## foldedpath

> Not having read all the posts, this may be a repeat, but the whole point of fiddle tunes is not having to know this stuff. You just learn the bones of it and play. By ear, by sheet music, who cares. Once you're in a group setting, you just go with the flow. You know a few bowing patterns, or picking patterns, and just apply those when it sounds right. Moving up ir down a key or two, no big deal, it's all the same pattern when you have an instrument tuned in fifths, so you just have a different starting point. Some of the most influential string bands were just big happy messes, and that's the fiddle tune vibe, at least as far as old-time goes. yeah, ITM and Scots are more precise, and you can go that way if you want, but if it's not fun, it's not fiddling.


Well, it's not that Irish and Scottish trad musicians are more precise. It's that they're using far more ornamentation than OldTIme or string band fiddlers. That style of ornamentation developed in first position, which allows free fingers for cuts, taps, and rolls that simply can't be done with the same degree of ease and expression in closed position and unusual keys. The open strings in G,D,A,E also facilitate double-stops in the keys commonly used for fiddle tunes, which is one common ground with OldTime players.

And finally, there is the "playing with other instruments" factor. An Irish trad fiddler (or mandolinist) is likely to be sitting next to someone at a session playing high D whistle, keyless D flute, pipes, concertina, or button box accordion. All of these are diatonic instruments, not fully chromatic. Many of the common "fiddle tunes" were originally composed on these other diatonic instruments, which is why players in this genre generally stick to the tonal centers of D, G, and their related minors and modes. 

You can't just arbitrarily decide that you're going to shift a tune into Bb when playing with instruments that can't handle the key change, even aside from how it would screw up ornamentation. At least not in a social setting like that. 

Sometimes you have to even change how you call or play fiddle tunes with certain instruments in the room. For example, avoiding too many modern fiddle compositions with important phrases on the fiddle/mandolin G string, because keyless flutes and whistles can't play lower than your D string. Or avoiding tunes with important notes that fall on a G# if you play with pipers, because they don't have that note, and it's tough to finger with half-holing on a keyless flute or D whistle. An important thing to learn when playing Irish/Scottish trad is understanding how the _other_ instruments work, not just your own.

I actually find it fascinating that so many great tunes can be played in such a narrow scale range, and in so few keys and modes. Sometimes restrictions lead to magic.

----------


## Charlieshafer

> Well, it's not that Irish and Scottish trad musicians are more precise. It's that they're using far more ornamentation than OldTIme or string band fiddlers. That style of ornamentation developed in first position, which allows free fingers for cuts, taps, and rolls that simply can't be done with the same degree of ease and expression in closed position and unusual keys. The open strings in G,D,A,E also facilitate double-stops in the keys commonly used for fiddle tunes, which is one common ground with OldTime players.
> 
> I actually find it fascinating that so many great tunes can be played in such a narrow scale range, and in so few keys and modes. Sometimes restrictions lead to magic.


You're right about he position issues,and I'm aware of that, as we play it all, but a lot of Celtic is in the first position as well, with an occasional shift. The preponderance of Scots/cape Breton are in A, and Irish in D. Not everyone, of course, but it's pretty typical.  Right now we're working on a James Scott Skinner set. Anyway, that's not the point of what I was trying to say.  I think I'd disagree on the ornamentation, though.  While some of the early old timers didn't do much, the past 20 years or so have seen an explosion in old-time ornamentation. But I guess the point there (that I'm sort of coming to in my own mind right now) is that old-time is far more open to interpretation and experimentation. Starting with the first wave of new-old-timers, like Highwoods and The Correctones, things morphed quickly with bands like the Horseflies and Crooked Still. And beyond ornamentation, at our last workshop, we had a great time talking with Darol Anger as he tried to count how many different variations in just bow holds he now uses, teaches at Berklee, just for old time alone. 

So my point really was this: do you know a fiddle tune for the enjoyment of playing, or as an example to be used in music theory, or as a tool for technical development? If it's just for fun, the second two don't matter.

----------


## foldedpath

> You're right about he position issues,and I'm aware of that, as we play it all, but a lot of Celtic is in the first position as well, with an occasional shift. The preponderance of Scots/cape Breton are in A, and Irish in D. Not everyone, of course, but it's pretty typical.


We must travel in difference circles. Sure, a lot of the pipe tunes are in A (actually A mixo, often), but Scottish and Cape Breton pipers play plenty of D, G, A dorian and E dorian tunes too. There are a _ton_ of great Irish tunes that get played in sessions around here in Bm, A dorian, E dorian, G, D dorian. It's not all in D major by a long shot. 




> Right now we're working on a James Scott Skinner set. Anyway, that's not the point of what I was trying to say.  I think I'd disagree on the ornamentation, though.  While some of the early old timers didn't do much, the past 20 years or so have seen an explosion in old-time ornamentation. But I guess the point there (that I'm sort of coming to in my own mind right now) is that old-time is far more open to interpretation and experimentation. Starting with the first wave of new-old-timers, like Highwoods and The Correctones, things morphed quickly with bands like the Horseflies and Crooked Still. And beyond ornamentation, at our last workshop, we had a great time talking with Darol Anger as he tried to count how many different variations in just bow holds he now uses, teaches at Berklee, just for old time alone.


With respect, I think you're conflating variation with ornamentation as if it's the same thing, and it's not. I've never heard an OldTime player, or even a modernist like Darol Anger, play _additional_ notes (often not directly pitched) around the main melody notes the way it's done in Irish/Scottish trad. 

But variations, often improvised on the spot, sure! And the same thing happens with higher-level Irish/Scottis trad players, who use variation in addition to ornamentation so you're not hearing the tune played exactly the same way through several repetitions. That's more of a performance thing. But a little of that can work in pub sessions too, as long as it's harmonically consonant and doesn't throw the rest of the group off the rails.




> So my point really was this: do you know a fiddle tune for the enjoyment of playing, or as an example to be used in music theory, or as a tool for technical development? If it's just for fun, the second two don't matter.


I don't know anyone in the groups I play with socially who doesn't play the music for the enjoyment of playing, and not as some technical or theory exercise. The same thing goes for the world-class Irish, Scottish, and Cape Breton musicians I've met. There are better paying gigs if you don't love the music and have fun playing it.

But I don't see how you can separate technical development, or even a little bit of theory, from playing for enjoyment and fun. It's all mixed together. That is, unless one is content to remain at the beginner level forever. There are some things that simply aren't achievable without a little bit of knowledge and technical skill, while you're on the way to having all that fun.

----------


## Charlieshafer

> We must travel in difference circles. 
> With respect, I think you're conflating variation with ornamentation as if it's the same thing, and it's not. I've never heard an OldTime player, or even a modernist like Darol Anger, play _additional_ notes (often not directly pitched) around the main melody notes the way it's done in Irish/Scottish trad.


I'm sure we do travel indifferent circles! No problem with that at all. But I do know the difference between ornamentation and variation,  and that's probably the main difference between the two. True, triplets or cuts or trills don't often appear in old-time. But, ornamentation around notes of other types surely does. That too, is perhaps regional difference. 

When I speak of different bow holds and bowing, there's a whole vocabulary of stutters, jumps, chunks and chops that are in pretty much every young fiddler's toolbox, at least in New England. All these get used to ornament various notes within a phrase. Not a variation, they're ornaments. The length of the note, and a subtle variation in pitch, greater than vibrato, becomes ornamentation as well, much like the way Albert King would bend strings join his guitar.

I think what we're running into here isn't as much a technique thing, but a generational thing. We've hosted a large number of Irish/Scots fiddlers through the years, and they do all hold very tightly to their tradition when playing the old tunes. And then you have players like Alasdair Fraser who, after sticking tight to some traditional stuff, will then switch gears and turn to a classical/jazz crossover section. It happens with old time fiddlers as well, where half are set in their ways, the other half not so much.

And by all means, theory and technique are important, we're pretty intense on those at the workshops we hold, and even the youngest kids inner "fiddle" club have to take classical lessons for technique. But, my phrasing was in response to the original post, where it seemed like the poster was way too worried about aspects that can get in the way if those become the main goal. We're strongly considering using movement as a way to "get to know" fiddling. Soon as the weather breaks, we're going to try having a couple of our our really great technical classical players, who have a hard time loosening up, head outside in the sun and play while walking around, then eventually sort of swing to the beat, then even trying to dance while they're playing. They'll protest, but then we'll bring April Verch on down and turn her loose on them. Anything to get past the technical angst and on to the emotional drive.

----------

