# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Truss Rod Wrench Won't Fit Hole

## Emmett Marshall

Now that I've done a lot of homework, I am ready to take on my first attempt at adjusting my truss rod, but I've run into this issue before I even get started:

Click to enlarge photos



The socket is too long for the cutout access to the truss rod adjustment nut.  It fits well on the sides, but won't drop into the recess. Grinding off the back of the socket isn't going to make it short enough.  Am I faced with having to remove some wood so the wrench can get in there, or is there another tool made that will fit in there?  Any thoughts?

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## Jeff Mando

There is quite a bit of variation to the bodies of truss rod tools and wall thicknesses as well as depth.  I keep about 50 different ones around for that reason.  Before you think of removing wood, find someone with a bunch of truss rod tools and try to find the right size.  Sometimes the best ones are the little dinky ones that come with the instrument.  Of course, sometimes it is necessary to grind a truss rod tool shorter or thinner to make it work.  Sometimes there is a bunch of finish in there that can be removed with an x-acto knife (carefully)--usually on cheaper instruments.  Also, I've used small sockets to do this job.  Take your time and see what works.  If it doesn't fit well, by all means--STOP.

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Charles E., 

Emmett Marshall

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## Hadji36

As Jeff Mando said, I would try to grind and rework the tool to fit first.  You probably have 6-8 bucks into the wrench...how much do you have in the mandolin?  

How deep is the socket on the truss rod wrench?  You may be able to grind and polish enough to "slip" into the truss rod cavity.

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Emmett Marshall

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## Jeff Mando

You said that you've done your homework, but I want to stress that one of the worse feelings in the world is when the tool turns a little too far and the truss rod nut snaps off.....then you have real work ahead of you.  The first guitar I adjusted, 35+ years ago, turned just like butter, a text book example, I was able to dial in the lowest action on an old Silvertone electric guitar--literally changing it from unplayable to amazing.  The SECOND guitar I adjusted, well, the nut snapped right off....before I knew what happened.  My point is that it takes a while to develop the "feel" to know when the nut is turning vs when the nut has stopped (at the end of the threads) and the whole truss rod is bending.  Also, a good idea is to turn the nut in the opposite direction, apply a drop of lube, then begin adjusting your action.  Good luck.

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Emmett Marshall

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## Emmett Marshall

Hey Jeff!  Thank you for the excellent advice!  My plan, once I get a wrench to _fit very well,_ is similar to what you are suggesting.  I was going to back it off first (it's a two-way rod though) and very slowly start working with it.  I like the oil idea!  If it doesn't move smoothly, in either direction, I am going to send it out to a pro (don't know who yet).  I'm not willing to take any chances here.  I've already put $$$ into this Kentucky having the florida scooped and a finger rest installed - both very well done by Cumberland Acoustic.  I'm just thinking along the lines of, "If I can fix it easily, then I'll save a ton on shipping and labor, but if I can't, I'm just going to eat the cost of repair and play on."  Tomorrow, I'll grind away on that wrench and see where it gets me.

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## Emmett Marshall

> How deep is the socket on the truss rod wrench?  You may be able to grind and polish enough to "slip" into the truss rod cavity.


It's not very deep.  I'm going to go ahead and grind off the back of it, but I have to leave enough metal so the little handle on it doesn't get buggered up or fall out.  As far as finding other wrenches or sockets that will work - well I'm not having any luck with that.

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## sunburst

That's one of my pet peeves!
An instrument needs a simple truss rod adjustment to improve it's playability, I take the cover off and I can't get a wrench on the nut...

(It's an oversight by the maker. An adjusting tool should _fit_! We should not have to grind wrenches, we should not have to settle for a tool that fits part way into the nut.
When it happens, I cut away wood from the peghead until the tool fits; wood that the maker should have cut away before considering the instrument ready for finish.
(The longer I work on instruments the more I hate finishing someone else's work for them.))

...so I end up spending time with a gouge, files and sanding spindles removing wood instead of spending less than a minute adjusting the rod with a tool that fits easily, as it should be.

Cut away some wood until a 5/16" nut driver will slip right onto the nut. It is almost always just the overlay that interferes with the fit of the tool (and it usually looks like the opening in the overlay was cut by some mechanical production method designed by someone who didn't even realize that the opening is inadequate to allow a tool to fit) and removing wood does not noticeable reduce the strength of the neck when it is removed from the overlay. Even if I have to remove some wood from the neck itself, I still feel like the truss rod needs to be accessible if it is to be there, so it's not my fault if the neck is slightly weakened, I didn't design it.

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Aaron Smith, 

Bernie Daniel, 

Emmett Marshall

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## Ron McMillan

I continue to be amazed by the quality of highly specialised information available here.

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## MysTiK PiKn

> I continue to be amazed by the quality of highly specialised information available here.


Isn't it just wonderful?  We are very fortunate to have this.  And it keeps getting better.  There is no lack.

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## MysTiK PiKn

> Click to enlarge photos
> 
> 
> 
> The socket is too long for the cutout access to the truss rod adjustment nut.  It fits well on the sides, but won't drop into the recess. Grinding off the back of the socket isn't going to make it short enough.  Am I faced with having to remove some wood so the wrench can get in there, or is there another tool made that will fit in there?  Any thoughts?


That might fit if you use some dynamite.  Really, where did that tool come from?
*I'd take John's suggestion of a "nut driver".
Nut drivers often are like tiny 1/4" drive, and 1/4" drive socket on the end of it is not too big usually.  I'd try that.
Possibly a socket driver with an 6" extension - it should clear the hole an hover over the tuner pegs with that - kinda of long direct shot at the business end of the truss.*
You could also try a sweet grass ritual offering to appeal to the Great Spirit of Mandolins for assistance.  I mean like wow, you need a break here somewhere.
When I was starting mine, the info said a 5mm allen key; turned out to be a 4mm allen key.  Even that was hard to get at it - but I used the long end of the allen key to make sure, and that did fit.  But I always had to wiggle around before it popped on.  
I also used to detune the innermost strings to keep them out of the way, slip them over the next nutslot; or just detune all strings, depending wassup.
Yeh, smaller cheaper less fancy wrench.  That one's way too fancy.  This is just a minor inconvenience, right? Right.

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Emmett Marshall

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## Mandoplumb

I'm no repair man but I would never adjust truss rod with the neck under tension of the strings. Makes felling the movement of the rod harder.

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Emmett Marshall

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## Emmett Marshall

> That might fit if you use some dynamite.


Well, that is plan "B" if I can't get a socket in there.  Actually, I was thinking of C-4 instead.

The wrench came from Stew-Mac land.  And it's a little beauty too!  Well made, well thought out, elegant, and all nice and shiny.  The catalog said 5/16" truss rod wrench, so I bought it. I'm sure it works great on "some" instruments.

I'm going to make calls today and try to find out what these retailer's, who carry the Kentucky line, are using to adjust truss rods.




> I'd take John's suggestion of a "nut driver".
>  Nut drivers often are like tiny 1/4" drive, and 1/4" drive socket on the end of it is not too big usually. I'd try that..


That thought crossed my mind.  I can get one of those pretty cheap.  Looking at the depth of the nut in the recess, however, makes me think that I would have to *really* remove some material for it to slip onto the nut. This little wrench* may*  mean that I can get away with removing less wood because:  Instead of sanding out a longer sliding slope, I could possibly get away with just a shorter, steeper one. I will inspect that again though. Of course, if I do any cutting/sanding it all has to be hidden by the truss rod cover. I've only got about a quarter inch to play with there.  The truss rod nut recess is more like a straight walled hole as opposed to something designed for a person to slip something into at an angle. I have this feeling that John has seen this before - since his first response seems to be to remove some of the wood.

I'll take another picture so you can, maybe, see how deeply set into the peghead this thing really is.

The nut is made of *very soft* brass. All I did was try to stuff the socket onto the nut with my fingers, and just doing a little bit of wiggling around caused some damage. Unless I get a socket to fit perfectly, I am not going any further with this.

Click to enlarge photos



I am choosing my tools carefully.  *ONE* of these ought to do the trick?

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## Tom Haywood

I had the same problem recently with a Weber Y2K. None of my 50 nut wrenches fit. The rod past the nut was too long and the access area was too short and shallow. Looked around in my automotive socket wrenches and put this together. Worked perfectly. That's a short 5/16" socket, a 1/4" swivel head driver, and a 3' extension. This gives enough torque to turn a stuck nut or strip the rod.

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Emmett Marshall

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## sunburst

You can remove this much wood and still have the cover hide the pocket. Another thing you can do, after this nut is off, is change to a 1/4" nut. That will allow a thinner nut driver and better clearance. (The threads are usually 10 - 32, but be sure before you change the nut.)
That would be a round-bottomed ramp, sloping as far toward the tuners as needed to allow a nut driver to fit.

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Emmett Marshall, 

Tom Haywood

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## Tom Haywood

That should say 3" extension.

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Emmett Marshall, 

MysTiK PiKn

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## Folkmusician.com

Repair work might actually be enjoyable if not for all the unseen problems that arise!   :Confused: 

PM or email me your address,  I will send you a wrench that works.

The nuts are very soft.  This allows the nut to be sacrificial and "hopefully" save the truss rod if it is overtightened.

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Emmett Marshall, 

MysTiK PiKn

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## Cush

If you replace the nut with an allen head nut you can save some wood and lose the old nut.

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Emmett Marshall, 

MysTiK PiKn, 

Rob Meyer

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## Emmett Marshall

> Repair work might actually be enjoyable if not for all the unseen problems that arise!   PM or email me your address,  I will send you a wrench that works. The nuts are very soft.  This allows the nut to be sacrificial and "hopefully" save the truss rod if it is overtightened.


Wow Robert. That is so *very* kind of you!  I would much prefer to avoid carving out the hole any more than necessary to get the job done. I will PM you today with my address and phone number. Now it makes sense to me "why" they chose such a soft nut.  Since this is supposed to be a two-way truss rod, am I in danger of snapping the works even if I turn it counter-clockwise to begin with?

UPDATE:  PM Sent

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## Jim Hilburn

I have those Stew Mac wrenches and there's no good reason for them to be that long. It should be half as long with the handle sticking straight up. Here's my ground down unit.
Also, those brass 5/16" nuts should be banned from building. The 1/4" that Cumberland supply's should be the norm. Or Allen's.

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Emmett Marshall

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## Emmett Marshall

> You can remove this much wood and still have the cover hide the pocket.


Thanks John.  Looking at your drawing though....If I have to remove that much material, what happens with the top screw hole for the truss rod cover?  Do I just get a longer screw?

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## Emmett Marshall

> I have those Stew Mac wrenches and there's no good reason for them to be that long. It should be half as long with the handle sticking straight up. Here's my ground down unit.
> Also, those brass 5/16" nuts should be banned from building. The 1/4" that Cumberland supply's should be the norm. Or Allen's.


One thing is for sure!  I not going down a road that you guys haven't already, and it is REALLY nice to have some company!

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## sunburst

> ...what happens with the top screw hole for the truss rod cover?  Do I just get a longer screw?


No need for a longer screw, that photo just shows the extent to which wood _can be_ removed and still be covered by the truss rod cover. It might not take that much for tool clearance, and even if it does, there would be only a small amount removed at the screw hole because it would be a round-bottomed ramp, deeper toward the nut, shallower toward the tip of the peghead.

The only truss rod pocket I have handy to photograph right now is this old (30s) Gibson guitar peghead. Even this rather bulky Stanley 5/16" nut driver fits just fine because the pocket is designed and cut to allow clearance. There's no reason current makers can't do the same thing, if they are going to use a similar nut. If they would simply pay attention to the requirement of using a tool on the nut, and leave some space for it, all would be well and there wouldn't be a 20-some-post thread on Mandolin Cafe with all manner of suggestions of where to get wrenches, how to re-grind them to fit(!!), and how to modify things just to get the truss rod to be adjustable! The maker should have left some room for a tool, and if they don't, I'll do it for them when the instruments is in my shop.
I have a small collection of bent, welded, ground and otherwise modified tools that I've had to make or modify to adjust guitar necks. Why is that? It's just plain crazy that I've had to do that to accomplish a 15-second task (adjusting a truss rod). How many wrenches should we have to have to adjust necks? As I see it, if I can't use a normal nut driver or a normal allen wrench to adjust a peghead-accessible rod, the peghead is made wrong and I'm going to fix it. I don't want to go wrench hunting of start welding, grinding, bending or whatever.


OK, I'll step down off of my soap box now...

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Emmett Marshall, 

John Ellington, 

MysTiK PiKn

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## Emmett Marshall

John,  thank you for the pictures. I have to agree with you.  It doesn't make any sense.  It's almost like they make the assumption that nobody ever needs to get in there except them - using their own little, proprietary gizmo tools?  I'm putting the project on the back burner for awhile until I get to try Robert Fear's wrench first.  He says it will work.  I want to give all you guys a "virtual handshake" for walking me through this job.  You do it all day, but it's first for me, and frankly, I'm not about to screw up $2000 of mandolin.  I have a feeling that a pro is going to wind up working on the neck for me anyway.  :Mandosmiley:

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## David Houchens

5/16 nut and a washer. Are you sure this is a two way rod?

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## Folkmusician.com

> 5/16 nut and a washer. Are you sure this is a two way rod?


I was going to chime in on that..   This is not a two way truss rod.





> Since this is supposed to be a two-way truss rod, am I in danger of snapping the works even if I turn it counter-clockwise to begin with?


Not at all,  the nut will just spin off. It looks like there is a mistake on the Saga website about the truss rod being two way.  :Smile:

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## Folkmusician.com

To Piggyback on John's rant...

Last year I was setting up a mandolin and was just doing the final tweaking.  I was around two hours into leveling/dressing frets, fitting the bridge, etc...   I went to adjust the truss rod and there was a pocket, but no access under the nut. Now this wasn't the first time I had ran across mandolins missing the truss rod (models that are supposed to have one and even have a cover plate).

After a bit of questionable words blurted out, I decided to chisel out the wood.  Low and behold the truss rod was there (behind an 1/8" of wood) and worked fine.   Nothing surprises me anymore.   :Smile:

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Timbofood

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## MysTiK PiKn

> Repair work might actually be enjoyable if not for all the unseen problems that arise!  
> 
> PM or email me your address,  I will send you a wrench that works.
> 
> The nuts are very soft.  This allows the nut to be sacrificial and "hopefully" save the truss rod if it is overtightened.


Speechless.

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## MysTiK PiKn

> 5/16 nut and a washer. Are you sure this is a two way rod?


Really.  I take responsibility for *quoting the Saga website SPECS for this model*. (in a previous thread).  It specifies a 2way in the spec list on their site.

Knuckle ball? That's just not fair.  :Disbelief: 

Bryce = thanks.

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David Houchens

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## Emmett Marshall

> Really.  I take responsibility for *quoting the Saga website SPECS for this model*. (in a previous thread).  It specifies a 2way in the spec list on their site. Knuckle ball? That's just not fair.  Bryce = thanks.


Yet another reason to be so thankful for these fellas who are willing to take (literally) their precious time and spend some of it helping others out who are in need of the guidance that only experience and expertise can provide. It makes me wish I lived in another town so I could take people out to lunch, do a barbecue, something! 

Since my Kentucky is last year's model (pretty new), now I have to wonder when/if they *EVER* did use a two-way truss rod?  My older KM675 doesn't have a two-way.  What if somebody is shopping and looks at those specs today, and thinks, "Wow, it's even got a two-way truss rod!"   "Poor poor pitiful me"  :Coffee:

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## Rick Lindstrom

No one has asked yet, and my curiosity has finally gotten the best of me, so I will- why do you want to adjust the TR?

I know the reasons for adjusting truss rods, and I've adjusted many a rod. Just wondering which reason you have for adjusting yours?

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## Pete Jenner

My theory on adjustable truss rods FWIW: Adjustable truss rods only exist to compensate for neck bending that occurs as a result of weakness created by the truss rod pocket. CF rules.

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Robert Fear - _"The nuts are very soft. This allows the nut to be sacrificial and "hopefully" save the truss rod if it is overtightened."_. Whilst understanding the reasoning behind the concept of being 'sacrificial' to prevent damage,if the nut is too soft or the 'facets' on the nut aren't really well defined (bad hex.head milling),then the wrench could round the corners off very easily, leaving a nut that can't be turned one way or the other. Personally,i'm thinking of my Weber "Fern" bridge which can be adjusted up / down whilst under full string pressure.(pic.below) The screw threads on the bridge have integral,small brass hexagonal nuts at the base,which, using a Weber supplied wrench can be turned.However,the nuts are brass & the wrench is steel,one slip (i made several, as these are only about 1/16" thick) & the hexagonal nuts are missing a few corners. Why the heck weren't the threads + nuts made from steel as well ?. To me it makes as much sense as a chocolate teapot. In the case of a 'soft' truss rod nut,if it was to be overtightened & the hexagon corners were stripped off by the wrench - how do you loosen it,especially when typically there's usuall very little room around it to begin with ?. Far better IMHO,to have a strong hexagonal nut = steel,& to give an opportunity to reverse such a situation,or you could end up with a neck _under full compression_ & no way to relieve it, :Frown:  
                                                                                                                                                                Ivan

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Bernie Daniel

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## HoGo

Brass nut won'd get damaged if your TR wrench is good tight fit over the nut. Steel on steel may get some rust and will be stuck forever and also brass (better yet bronze) on steel will move smoother.

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Emmett Marshall

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## Rick Lindstrom

> (EDIT) Far better IMHO,to have a strong hexagonal nut = steel,& to give an opportunity to reverse such a situation,or you could end up with a neck _under full compression_ & no way to relieve it, 
>                                                                                                                                                                 Ivan


For the OCD nitpickers, brass supposedly has better acoustical properties than steel. LOL

I was making a flesh hoop for a skin banjo head once and would have used easily available steel rod, but the player insisted that steel would ruin the tone of the instrument and insisted that I use brass, which was much harder to source, and somewhat more difficult to work into a hoop. As someone pointed out, brass won't rust, which may be a consideration when in contact with a hygroscopic material like goat hide.

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## MysTiK PiKn

> No one has asked yet, and my curiosity has finally gotten the best of me, so I will- why do you want to adjust the TR?
> 
> I know the reasons for adjusting truss rods, and I've adjusted many a rod. Just wondering which reason you have for adjusting yours?


The problem lurking in the background from another thread:

Constant buzz on lower frets - bass side.
Bridge was max elevated on bass side to attempt to offset buzz. (=Fail) (Radical Tilt, max height bass side)
Buzz was mainly only happening on bass side.  Presumed cause being 'wound' strings buzz more noticeably.  Unwound strings perhaps buzzing slightly.
A "neck hump" was also indicated. And possibly was involved as being actual cause of buzz, or perhaps contributing to buzz.
Also neck was observed to be low in the bass wound strings, first few frets.
The truss rod adjust, was supposed to be an "easy" experiment to see if enough adjustment could be achieved to overcome buzz from low frets, and also to overcome the contributing factor, the neck/body hump. i.e. there was some hope for perfect alignment of entire neck.

If that failed, the plan was to ship the mando to a luthier, to deal with entire situation.  
Actual presumed complete solution would have probably also involved fret levelling, along with truss and bridge adjustments.
Player did not feel confident re DIY. But the truss rod was thought to be a simple test.

That's it in a nutshell.  There's also the original thread here somewhere w many contributors.
The "experiment" has been interrupted by trussrod nut - this was supposed to be, according to saga specs, a 2 way trussrod. (fail)


NOTE ALSO:
I just observed my own TheLoar 700 mandolin, truss rod IS a 2way on mine, and the ACCESS HOLE is identical to the one on this Saga Kentucky KM1500.  It seems it was perhaps original manu'd to be a 2way truss; but IT SEEMS it is NOW a 1way truss.  



The jury remains out however. What is going on? More will be revealed somehow.  Was the rod replaced? Was the spec changed?  Is it now a compression rod? Who knows. And what's with the soft brass?


So now we have many fascinating theories of what can be imagined.
.
Waiting for what's next. Or so it seems.

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## Folkmusician.com

I finally cleared enough space on my phone to take photos again!  I suppose I didn't need Angry Birds or incriminating photos anyway.   :Smile: 

Here is our tool in question: 

Now, how will using this steel version affect tone after the adjustment? Do you need a brass truss rod wrench?

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## J.Albert

*OP:*

The truss rod wrench you have isn't going to do it.

You need a different one, of a wholly different design.

I have a bunch of old "nut drivers" that look like screwdrivers with "fat blades".
The blades aren't actually blades, but rather, hollow tubes with the end designed to fit over the nut.

These are relatively thin in diameter and should fit your truss rod cutout.

You'll have to search and scrounge the net to find them.

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## MysTiK PiKn

I am wondering if Saga actually changed from the 2way truss to the 1way compression type.  It just doesn't make sense to me, in my somewhat limited experience.  Has anyone any info from Sage??

I am thinking this could be a quick fix hack.  That doesn't make sense either.  I can't see how removing a 2way and switching to a 1 way would make sense.  If the orig 2way was busted, a new 2way would not be prohibitively expensive. I also read somewhere that a 2way can be removed without pulling the fb. (??? is that true???).  With either type rod, I would expect pull the fb is needed.  The switch to a 1way is same work; but likely require other mods internally. wassup here??

In otherwords, I am not sure we have all the required info here. Perhaps we have not found the real problem. 

Wow, is this part of the test??  :Disbelief:

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## Folkmusician.com

I have never seen a KM-1500 with a two way truss rod.  Best guess: Whoever was writing the descriptions for their website was quickly copy/pasting specs and didn't pay attention, or was not familiar with the mandolin. Of course, countless dealers have copied the incorrect specs and spread it across the internet.   :Smile:

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MysTiK PiKn

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## sblock

Here is what a 5/16" nut driver with a deep and fairly slender socket looks like:



This one comes from Digikey.com and costs less than $8; Carr-MacMaster and others also stock the same or similar.

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Tom Haywood

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## Folkmusician.com

I knew I had some images of a 1500 truss rod nut somewhere! I believe this is a 2012.  One of our local players uses it for gigging and he needed it back together for a gig.


I did it as quickly as possible.  He was not concerned with cosmetics and just wanted a solid repair. I still did what I could without getting too into finish touchup.



And then it comes in again shortly after (note ear is busted off).  Strap popped off during a gig!  This time, it was just the ear though and he was actually bringing it in for a buzz it was having.



Did I mention that this is one of my best customers!   :Laughing: 
Anyway, note the truss rod is not two way.

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Emmett Marshall, 

Tom Haywood

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## MysTiK PiKn

> I have never seen a KM-1500 with a two way truss rod.  Best guess: Whoever was writing the descriptions for their website was quickly copy/pasting specs and didn't pay attention, or was not familiar with the mandolin. Of course, countless dealers have copied the incorrect specs and spread it across the internet.


Thank you for accurate information.

I will call off the posse.  :Grin: 

thx again.

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## Emmett Marshall

> A "neck hump" was also indicated. And possibly was involved as being actual cause of buzz, or perhaps contributing to buzz.


Thanks for the great synopsis Mystik, but to clarify a bit more, at this time, it does not appear to be a "neck hump" issue.  It's looking more like the neck is bowed forward creating a depression between the 2nd and 6th frets. I'll know a heck of a lot more once I'm able to adjust the truss rod.   :Mandosmiley:

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## Emmett Marshall

That's a big "OUCH" Robert!  From the looks of the photos, you did a fantastic job of getting him up and running again.

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## Emmett Marshall

> 5/16 nut and a washer. Are you sure this is a two way rod?


Not anymore! :Whistling:

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## Emmett Marshall

> Now, how will using this steel version affect tone after the adjustment? Do you need a brass truss rod wrench?


Hey Robert, did you make that, or find it somewhere?

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Ho Go -_"...TR wrench is good tight fit over the nut..."_ . I agree Adrian,but the nut does need to have a well defined,well milled hexagonal head. I've seen far too many with less then good corners on the hexagon mainly because the stock brass bar used to make them,was too small a diameter to begin with = keeping cost down. The hex.corners were already 'round' = one slip & you're up the creek !.Also the argument re-steel on steel doesn't really hold,in engineering in general,it's used millons of times everyday in 1000's of applications,
                                                      Ivan

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## Rick Lindstrom

> Hey Robert, did you make that, or find it somewhere?


Back in the day, when I worked in a music store, those wrenches were a dime a dozen and came with every Japanese stringed instrument as a standard accessory. I'm surprised that your mando didn't come with such a wrench.

You can see that the wrench is designed to fit easily into the truss rod pocket without removal of wood.

I should think that any music store that's been around for a while and dealt in Japanese stringed instruments would have those by the handful in a parts box somewhere.

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Timbofood

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## Folkmusician.com

> I should think that any music store that's been around for a while and dealt in Japanese stringed instruments would have those by the handful in a parts box somewhere.


This is the case...  I have several variations. I am honestly not sure exactly where they came from.   :Smile:

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## David Houchens

> This is the case... I have several variations. I am honestly not sure exactly where they came from.


 Are you talking about the voices in my head? :Grin:

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## Folkmusician.com

> Are you talking about the voices in my head?


Mine are in mutual agreement the vast majority of time. It is only a problem when they can not come to terms....

"I want a Porsche", "I need a Porsche", "we can't afford a Porsche", "who asked, you?"  "ok, how about a new power tool?"  "I think we can all agree on that".   :Wink:

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David Houchens, 

Timbofood

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## Michael Lewis

Robert, maybe you should have a radio playing when you are alone.  I find it quiets the voices by distracting my attention. :Wink:

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David Houchens, 

Folkmusician.com

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## MysTiK PiKn

Bryce, that's the 2nd time you've thrown a wrench into the works. Please, keep up the good work. My voices are all cheering for you.  It would seem you have been elevated to hero status. They all say "Thank YOU, Bryce".  :Mandosmiley:  It's really quite entertaining.

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## Emmett Marshall

The voices in my head are saying, "Can't wait for that wrench to get here!  I wanna play my Kentucky!  I love my Kentucky.  How come I've had it for 2 months and only got to play it for an hour or two.  Can't wait for that wrench to get here."  :Coffee:

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## Bernie Daniel

> From Robert Fear - _"The nuts are very soft. This allows the nut to be sacrificial and "hopefully" save the truss rod if it is overtightened."_. Whilst understanding the reasoning behind the concept of being 'sacrificial' to prevent damage,if the nut is too soft or the 'facets' on the nut aren't really well defined (bad hex.head milling),then the wrench could round the corners off very easily, leaving a nut that can't be turned one way or the other. Personally,i'm thinking of my Weber "Fern" bridge which can be adjusted up / down whilst under full string pressure.(pic.below) The screw threads on the bridge have integral,small brass hexagonal nuts at the base,which, using a Weber supplied wrench can be turned.However,the nuts are brass & the wrench is steel,one slip (i made several, as these are only about 1/16" thick) & the hexagonal nuts are missing a few corners. Why the heck weren't the threads + nuts made from steel as well ?. To me it makes as much sense as a chocolate teapot. In the case of a 'soft' truss rod nut,if it was to be overtightened & the hexagon corners were stripped off by the wrench - how do you loosen it,especially when typically there's usuall very little room around it to begin with ?. Far better IMHO,to have a strong hexagonal nut = steel,& to give an opportunity to reverse such a situation,or you could end up with a neck _under full compression_ & no way to relieve it, 
>                                                                                                                                                                 Ivan


"Makes as much sense as a chocolate teapot"!   :Laughing:  I agree I'd prefer a decent steel nut as well.

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## sunburst

When you can get a well-fitting nut driver fully on the nut, you can apply enough torque to compress the wood under the washer, over-torque the rod, or otherwise cause harm with no damage to the brass nut. Considering that, as long as the rod functions properly and adjustments are done correctly there is no danger to the nut. Another reason to have enough clearance around the nut for the proper tool to fit correctly.

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## Jeff Mando

Still kinda nervous, when a repairman talks about removing wood VS modifying a tool to accomplish the same job.  I say this based on 30+ years of doing repair and tinkering with truss rods.  EVEN IF we are talking about removing a small amount of wood--IT IS STILL WOOD--I think at the very least a courtesy call to the owner would be in order.  Of course, his reply should be, "Why don't you just grind a $2.00 wrench instead of chipping away at my Loar........?"  Kinda like your lawyer saying, "We're going for the death penalty, you're cool with that, right?"

I've seen every variation of truss rod nut ailment, including some that are actually angling down toward the peghead, making it impossible to even begin to get a wrench in there.  Fender Jazz basses come to mind--the proper prodcedure is placing the neck face down (with padding) between two kitchen chairs, while an assistant "leans" into the center of the neck (again, oh so carefully) to allow just enough flex in the truss rod to get a wrench on the nut and hopefully turn it. (without breaking it in two)  Obviously, this technique wouldn't work on a mandolin because there isn't enough length to the neck. (vs a bass) Sometimes the repairman is being asked to compensate & correct for years of bending from bass strings or sometimes a truss rod that was never tightened at the factory.  To name just a few repair ills.  Some just have too much finish globbed in there, and yes, can be easily removed with small tools and scraping.  I guess price would play a role, also.  If you can get a $100 mandolin playable by removing a small amount of wood, then you've saved an instrument.  But only, after trying everything else, IMHO.  On a vintage Gibson or a modern boutique mandolin--no way!

And keep in mind, grinding or shortening a tool doesn't ruin it--you can use it on the next repair that calls for it.  Like I say, I've got at least 50 by now and there's usually one in there that will solve the problem.

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## sunburst

> ...And keep in mind, grinding or shortening a tool doesn't ruin it--you can use it on the next repair that calls for it.  Like I say, I've got at least 50 by now and there's usually one in there that will solve the problem...


Here are some tools from the back of a drawer of set-up tools. Two cut-off Allen wrenches, and two bent box end wrenches, one with a welded-on handle. (Fortunately, I took a basic welding course many years ago. I didn't realized welding was a required skill for adjusting truss rods at the time, but it ended up coming in handy.) The two wrenches involved traveling to the store and spending money to buy the wrench, firing up the torch to heat and bend the handle, and in the one case taking time (and expense) to make the handle and weld it onto the wrench.
Each of these has been used _once_. How much should I charge for adjusting those truss rods? Wouldn't it be easier for guitar makers to design so that the truss rod adjustment can be easily reached and adjusted with a standard tool? CF Martin and others do...


I'm not talking about removing wood like cutting holes in things, only removing wood that _shouldn't be there in the first place_. Someone mentioned a truss rod nut too close to the bottom of the pocket so that a wrench would not go on the nut (I've seen that many times). In that case, I have three choices: 1. remove some wood 2. risk damage using a poor tool that doesn't fit well 3. leave the rod un-adjusted. I'll go with either 1 or 2.
Usually it's just the peghead overlay sticking up in the way, and removing some of it does no harm to the instrument. There is a cover for the truss rod pocket, and that is what it is for; to cover the pocket because it is not an attractive design feature. Why not make the un-attractive hole it the peghead useful rather than frustrating? It's covered up anyway. 
If it's a situation where it takes two people, one pushing down on the neck and one trying to fit a special tool onto or into a nut, that one will just have to be left unadjusted or adjusted in someone else's shop. I'm not doing it.

BTW, if you ever have to adjust a truss rod in one of my mandolins, a 1/4" nut driver will fit right in the pocket and right on the nut with no problem whatsoever.

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## sunburst

...

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## Emmett Marshall

Robert's wrench arrived this weekend, but it's going to be a few days before I can work on the Kentucky. My work has me "out in the field" until Thursday. THANKS Robert!

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## Emmett Marshall

> ...


What John said.

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## Emmett Marshall

Jeff, I could have missed it somewhere, but did John say that he carves out customer's truss rod holes without informing them first? 

I can honestly say that I wouldn't have a problem with him doing that on my Kentucky ($1500 mando), but I might have a problem with that if it was a high value collector's mandolin and not a work horse. 

What about all the people who scoop out the Florida on, well, even an F5 Loar? If I wanted to record with it, I sure wouldn't want to worry about any pick-click right?

I look at it like this: I have to play my mandolin every chance I get. I want it to be the way that "I" want it to be. It has to suit me in every single way, or something suffers. I've got no problem with a professional cutting, chopping, bending, sanding, gluing, or whatever it takes to make me and my mandolin merge into one happy music machine. If I'm playing with the natives in the Amazon Basin and my neck needs adjusting, I might be really happy that John had the foresight to shave some wood out of the way of the truss rod nut before the natives shrink my head.

I agree with you that customers should be given an "opt-out" before any permanent changes are made.  I just had such a moment when a finger rest needed to be glued at an attachment point on my instrument. That was appreciated.

I also think that an instrument that is going to be played a lot, maybe all around the world, should be easy for anyone with "know how" to make basic adjustments. John's modification makes that possible.  Not everyone travels with a toolbox - although Robert's wrench is going to live a nice, cozy life in a Calton case.

What's with the "losing" customer's wrenches anyway? Is it just me, or does anyone else find it a little "peculiar" that we (Kentucky owners) are "supposed" to have such a wrench included with the purchase of a Kentucky mandolin?  Then we learn that luthiers and retailers have a million of these Kentucky wrenches in their shops?  Ummmm hmmm. I am here and now calling on ALL Kentucky owners everywhere to go and claim their wrench! Robert is forgiven because he has come clean and now walks through life with purity and impunity.

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## sunburst

> ...I might have a problem with that if it was a high value collector's mandolin and not a work horse.


Generally speaking, a high value collector's mandolin will have good truss rod access. The design of valuable instruments is generally well thought out and executed, or they wouldn't have become valuable (with occasional exceptions). Where we run into problems is with instruments from inexperienced builders who just "never thought about" the situation, and with moderately priced (to higher priced) manufactured instruments where the designers are perhaps half a planet away from the people who do the actual building. Once things are in production, redesign and perhaps retooling are required to make changes, even if the change makes it down the chain of command to the production facility. It can be easier to just let it be and settle for the need for a custom tool.

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## Jeff Mando

emmettw, I agree with 99.99 percent of John's postings and opinions.  I have learned a lot from reading what he has to say.  I have never played one of his mandolins, but I have viewed his website and I am very impressed with his work.  I'm sure John would never damage an instrument or suggest a repair that would not be a safe solution to a problem.  I'm sure he is a great communicator, as well.  Everyone's opinion on this forum has merit and we can learn from sharing our various perspectives.

Part of any repair process, even a simple set-up, requires communication to make sure the goal is to make the customer happy.  We all (as repairman) have various tricks of the trade.  And sometimes we let our opinions show.  Most of my work has been with vintage instruments, where frankly, originality is the number one goal, sometimes taking preference over functionality, or at least walking hand in hand with functionality.  Your example of scooping the Florida on an F5 Loar would NEVER be attempted or even considered by a reputable repairman, IMHO.  There is a famous story of Ricky Skaggs, when he started to receive mainstream country success, purchasing a prewar Herringbone D-28 from Gruhn's and then immediately having a modern pickup system installed with onboard preamp, as well as drilling volume and tone controls--I had friends who worked for Gruhn at the time, who overheard Gruhn say that he would never sell Skaggs another guitar.  Same with Stephen Stills, who would throw his vintage Martin into the air on stage and catch it, as part of his stage act--one day he didn't catch it---similar reaction from Gruhn......I guess I'm trying to say we are caretakers of these instruments to some degree, especially vintage instruments.  Different people draw the line at different points.  I've heard bluegrass guys hate Jimi Hendrix because he set fire to his guitar.  I've heard other people say if you buy it, you can do whatever you want with it--Pete Townshend made a statement something to that effect (at least at one point in his career).  

Sometimes a repairman has to find a solution to solve a problem and sometimes the solution is not the most elegant one.  Sometimes it shows, even when we use all of our tricks.  Sometimes it doesn't show.

Finding a truss rod tool shouldn't be that big of a deal.  But sometimes it is.  I agree with John that manufacturers should have all this figured out.  I don't know what to charge when I have to make a tool.  I usually know that I am going to lose money, but I try to think of my "month" rather than a single repair job.  I had to make a tool to fit a Baldwin Burns gearbox to adjust the neck on a Baldwin Double Six electric 12 string--I owned the guitar and was trying to sell it and eventually did sell it, so it was worth my effort to make a truss rod tool for it.  I still have the tool and haven't used it since......

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Emmett Marshall

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## sunburst

I just noticed that in post #58  I said "1 or 2" when I meant to say "I'll go with either 1 or _3_", _not_ #2.
(It's too late to edit)

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## Emmett Marshall

Hi Jeff:  Interesting stuff to see these various perspectives and consider them.  One is an appreciation for the instruments themselves, and another is about just making music with the instrument. Some people will buy a pickup truck, keep it stock, waxed, serviced, etc.  Others will want to put in a lift kit, change the wheels and tires, modify the engine, and just run the heck out of it.  I think that both of these "stereotypes" would appreciate lots of things about the truck, but they just have a different purpose in mind.  One might be concerned about resale value, and the other might be concerned about getting through the mud on the way to a fishing hole? One might have a great appreciation for the genius of the engineers and talent of the craftsmen, and another might just be thinking, "Wow, I can do something with this!"  I see both sides and I think they both have merit. 

I LOVE vintage instruments, but I'm not a collector or trader.  For me, a mandolin is a means to an end - making music.  I'm also the same guy that you don't want to let drive you home after a wine tasting.  While others are sniffing aroma, I'm gulping and thinking to myself "Yep. Good stuff!"  Just so ya'll know though, I'd let you modify the heck out of my Kentucky but not my Gibson because I'm a bit like Jeff also.  Someday, I want my heirs to inherit an intact, original Gibson, but if they decided to scoop out the Florida, or elongate a truss rod hole, I wouldn't roll over in my grave either. If I had a boutique, custom, hand built mandolin costing 5 figures, I'd cry every time I put a ding or scratch on it, and it probably wouldn't get used as much either.  I agree totally about what you said about communication, and I think that's where that "communication" you mentioned is so important - what does this instrument "mean" to the customer? Obviously, not every customer is going to have the same "take" on the instrument that the repairman has on it.

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## Tom Haywood

I used to have over 100 truss rod wrenches/drivers available at the music store. We confiscated most that came in with new instruments, because owners don't usually want to do the adjustment themselves. There aren't that many nut sizes, but I think every producer uses a rod, nut and pocket size that fits some tool they have. The trick is to have their tool. About 10 minutes of the job at the store was spent looking for something that fit, and I rarely had two wrenches the same size. The lack of standardization within a line of instruments is what got my attention. The mandolin referred to in post #13 was about #540 in their model production. I've never seen a rod extend a half inch past the nut, but apparently this fit their tool perfectly. A thin automotive socket worked perfectly for me after a lot of cussing about their design, and it actually made more sense with the soft brass nut. Robert's photo reminds me that removing wood to make room for the rod and nut reduces strength at a critical spot. I'm sure every designer is attempting to minimize that problem as they work with the angles involved.

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## Emmett Marshall

> I used to have over 100 truss rod wrenches/drivers available at the music store. We confiscated most that came in with new instruments, because owners don't usually want to do the adjustment themselves.


I just want to say that I have the utmost respect for all of you guys who repair and build mandolins, BUT...

...whoever "confiscated" my truss rod wrench, or "forgot" to leave it in the instrument case, has shut me down from troubleshooting, and maybe even fixing my mandolin for 2 solid weeks.  I live in a remote town.  There are no luthiers around.  I had to spend a fair bit of time hunting down the correct tool.  In fact, I paid around 10 dollars for a wrench from Stewmac that won't fit. When nothing was coming together, I had to consider removing wood.  I purchased some Dremel bits - another $20 (but nice to have anyway).  I wound up posting my problem here, and Robert, John, Mystik and others took the time to advise me. Robert then sent me the correct wrench.  All this BS and wasted time just because someone else wanted another wrench to add to their collection, or decided for me what I, as a customer need, or do not need?  Why couldn't someone just say, "Hey Emmett, do you want this truss rod wrench that comes with your mandolin? The one you PAID for already, but didn't even know you had?"

It's just ethics and respect.  Of course, if your auto mechanic stole some of your tools........you might not have any choice but to pay him for a visit the next time you need a tuneup right?  Even worse if a car dealership decided to "confiscate" your jack and spare tire because most people don't want to change tires and would rather call "AAA."  I just don't think it's "right" for sellers to keep these wrenches.  If I had mine to begin with, I wouldn't be sitting here with a dead mandolin until, at least, Wednesday to figure out what to do next.  The mando would either be fixed by now, or on it's way to a luthier to get fixed.

With all of this said, I do hope anybody selling production mandolins will re-consider the idea of "hanging onto" these wrenches for their customers.

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houseworker

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## Michael Lewis

Some folks are capable of properly adjusting truss rods and many are not.  This is no personal reflection on you, just a perspective of the repair world.  I have worked at music stores that usually kept the truss rod adjustment tools because they kept folks from messing with and possibly damaging their new instruments.  For much this same reason some guitar makers place their truss rods in nearly inaccessible locations for which you need a special tool.

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Emmett Marshall

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## Tom Haywood

A regular situation in my experience is that someone attempts a repair or adjustment, makes the problem worse due to lack of experience, then brings it in for the repair without telling me that they attempted it first. Truss rods are a particular issue with this because the right tool and experience are absolutely necessary, and if somebody has a wrench and no experience, well...  Some manufacturers, including Martin, do not send truss rod wrenches with their instruments for this very reason. The only hope I have dealing with a buggered up nut is to have the correct wrench on hand, and it gives the best chance that the final price will be reasonable. Stripped threads - forget about it. I always ask if someone wants to keep the wrench, but 9 out of 10 folks take the advice to bring it in for adjustment and let me risk doing the damage. Don't know where you bought the instrument, whether you bought it new, or whether the manufacturer ships a wrench with it, but I do see a lack of experience leading to an attempt at adjustment without having the correct tool on hand. I'm all for you learning how to do it, but my advice for your first time is to take it to an experienced repair person who doesn't mind showing you how.

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Emmett Marshall

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## Jackgaryk

em...sorry again for your "trials and tribulations" with your mandolin.  it's got to be under warranty,  how about sending it back?  sorry if you already addressed this and I missed it.  I have been following your threads on this one and the other mandolin you had to send back,  you shouldn't have to put up with this.  I know the Kentucky gets a lot of love around here,  but duh.  I thought by now you would have heard from the guys you bought it from and the guy you had to do the upgrades.  good luck !

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Emmett Marshall

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## Emmett Marshall

Hi Jack, Thank you for the empathy. I've spoken to the dealer who sold me the mandolin, as well as a couple of luthiers. It's unanimous among them that I should attempt a gentle truss rod adjustment first.  In the event that adjusting the rod doesn't do the trick, the next course of action is to ask Saga if they will repair it under warranty.  Since I had the Florida scooped and a pick guard installed, they may, or may not, repair it under warranty.  If they don't, there are a couple of luthiers who are willing to tackle the job, but just the round trip shipping will be about $100.

Yep. This whole KM1500 decision of mine has been one challenge after another. What makes it worse is that the darn thing sounds fantastic minus the buzzing strings. I don't give up easy, and I believe that just the right person/people will enter into the equation and make this baby sing like a bird.

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## Jim Hilburn

Since this is still going, I'll add pix of the one I'm doing now. I just try to use all the length the cover allows so any tool, either wrench or driver can get to the nut.

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Emmett Marshall, 

sunburst

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## Wes Brandt

> Since this is still going, I'll add pix of the one I'm doing now. I just try to use all the length the cover allows so any tool, either wrench or driver can get to the nut.


Jim,

Can I ask where you get those nuts? They appear to be 1/4 drive… are they 10-32 thread?

Thanks

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## Jim Hilburn

That's what Steve at Cumberland supplies. Not sure where he gets them.

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## sunburst

I use 1/4", 10-32 standoffs, I get them from MSC.

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## Steevarino

Jim, I used to get my truss rod nuts from a supply house, but I had to buy so many to get a good price that it wound up being a better deal to have them made by a screw machine company that makes other parts for me. Still, to get a reasonable price, I have to buy 2000-3000 at a time. Historically, I look at the box when it comes in, and figure, man, I'll never use all of those. Then, before long, it's time to re-order. It's hard to believe how many truss rods there are out in the world!

A word or two about stand-offs, be careful not to get brass ones if you are worried about the hex shape rolling over on you. Also, many stand-offs are zinc plated, and that doesn't work for me, as I use these same nuts (1/4" hex on the outside, #10-32 thread on the inside) on some versions of our two way truss rods. In these cases, they have to be brazed on one end and silver soldered on the other. I'd probably be dead by now if I'd have been breathing all those zinc fumes that burn off during these welding processes.

Of course, that won't be a problem if you are simply replacing a nut on a single-rod truss rod. Also, I believe some places offer them in stainless steel, so there's another option.

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## sunburst

I've used brass standoffs with a zinc plating for many years with no problems. I can torque them as hard as I can with a nut driver with no damage. Stainless would be nice though (when the cover is off so we can see it...).

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## Emmett Marshall

Hi Steve! Since you're reading this thread, I just wanted to thank you again for the great work you guys did with the florida, pick guard, and bridge.  It sounded so much better when I got her back from you - even if she is a pain in the neck right now.  My roommate noticed how much better it sounded also.

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## Emmett Marshall

> Don't know where you bought the instrument, whether you bought it new, or whether the manufacturer ships a wrench with it, but I do see a lack of experience leading to an attempt at adjustment without having the correct tool on hand. I'm all for you learning how to do it, but my advice for your first time is to take it to an experienced repair person who doesn't mind showing you how.


Thank you and I can definitely understand you seeing "red flags" here.  I have zero experience adjusting truss rods, however, I was a jet aircraft mechanic for a dozen years or so.  I kind of have a "feel" for adjusting things.  I used to have to adjust tensions with turnbuckles for flight control cables, etc. The "key" here is going to be me knowing when to stop if things aren't going well.  If I'm not comfortable with the the way things are moving, or not moving, I'm done. I sure wish I had the option of someone teaching me, hands on, how to adjust neck relief etc.  I simply don't.  There's a pretty good chance I'm going to have to ship it out for adjustment/repair.

I did buy it new, but it's had some modifications, so the possibility of warranty work is questionable. I was told that it was supposed to come with a wrench.  - and all I got was a mandolin......sheeeeesh. :Mandosmiley:

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## MysTiK PiKn

A long time ago, I acquired a Gibson guitar.  I had some faint notion that the action could be better.  I had a whole bunch of thoughts ideas, and no information, no experience - except I had heard that I could cause damage by playing with the truss rod.  So I got a wrench, and turned the nut.  Not much happened.  I tried to turn it more, and it got tight very quickly.  I undid what I had done.  And stopped.
Years later, I somehow heard about flat filing frets to level them.  I did some of that carefully.  A friend loaned me crowning files; which I had never used.  I completed the operation, and noticed slight improvement.
Years later, again, and recently, I made a truss rod adjustment, same guitar, different wrench, a nut driver actually - and I had read, about 3 times, every word in Frank Ford's section on truss rod, on frets.com.  I now understood, so I thought.  I grabbed my guitar and pulled the neck to where I wanted it, by hand - that was easy.  So with all 3 hands, and both feet, I GENTLY pulled it again, and tightened the 1way compression rod, and it stayed where I wanted it.  Noticeably improved after decades of ownership.  With the theory that the back of the neck compressed when the rod tightened, I became confident, and still cautious; BUT now I knew what I was doing.
Les than a year later, I bought crowning files - so now I can inspect the relatively flat frets from the last time I filed them, and recrown, with some knowledge of what I am doing - and literally years of contemplating doing this kind of work.  And all the while, not trusting anyone else to work on my old J45 - the last work on it was done by Judy Threet of Threet Guitars.  I have a tendency to say it's easy work; but it took years for me to learn how, what, when, where, and what if.  I could fast track my decades of homework with what I know now - but I didn't know, then.

This story overlaps my mandolin project, which was about fixing a 'roller coaster' of a neck.  After years of contemplation, gathering info where possible - it still demanded caution, research, questions, reading others threads here, etc.  And I was experimenting with a 2way truss rod, files, and whatever I didn't know. I was always seeking more info - just to get the right "feel" for what was needed.  There wasn't much room for error, and I maxed out on it anyway.  
This was on a new mint mando with a neck problem.  I was risking a thousand to apply what I thought I had learned.  Big risk.  Big reward.  I don't treat this lightly.  If someone wants it; it's possible.  But if you are like me, it's going to take a month to do what an experienced individual can do in a couple of hours.  I could do it a lot quicker now that I have slowly dragged myself through it, testing everything a thousand times, all the while.  I devoted nearly 2 months to get this right.
Note that in the background, the real problem is I need to plane the fretboard - I have researched that also.  And when my highly reduced frets wear away, it's time to plane the fb.  
Experienced people would not do this to the extent my frets needed it - experienced people would know that there won't be much left of the frets.  Mine was roller coaster, neck hump, reverse bow - it had ALL the problems.  My inexperience caused me to miss the high end of the hump - thought I had it all - so in effect, I did it twice.  That will never happen again - but it happened, and that's the hard lesson - it's actually quite ok - it could have been better with more experience.  Overall, success.  It plays better, buzzes lots less, and has low action.  I like it.  Experience gained, no problem.
So now I study fb planing, making bridge, making nut, removing backs, and other great mysteries.

I want to do this; it's interesting; and attending to my interest actually creates the energy to do it.  That's the test, for me.  
But it's a process that started where I was, and went forward from that point, and it's still going forward.  

I can maintain my own, to excess. I charge $0 per hour + expenses.  It'll be ready when it's ready.   :Coffee: 

Don't push the river.

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## Tom Haywood

> I was a jet aircraft mechanic for a dozen years or so.  I kind of have a "feel" for adjusting things.


Glad to know your mechanical background. The "feel" is the key. All the required warnings have been posted here, but in the end the adjustment is usually quite easy. You are only going for a 1/8 turn at a time anyway, so you should get the feel pretty quickly.

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Emmett Marshall

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## Jeff Mando

Good points, MP.  A lot of the work is "easy" once you know what you are doing--which takes years of experience to learn.  It takes me about a half an hour to clip my dogs toenails and he hates it and I hate that I am making him uncomfortable.  When I take him to get his haircut, it takes the groomer about 30 seconds to clip his nails.  Of course, that is what she does--all day long.

We live in a wonderful age of information that didn't exist just a few years ago.  I started learning from a guy who knew a little more than I did and at that time there were probably three or four books (at the most) on the subject of guitar repair.  The rest came from doing it.  I still love to get a "second opinion" by watching tutorials on youtube--for instruments, as well as appliances, lawn mowers, cars, etc.

Another factor concerning the truss rod is letting the instrument "settle" before adjusting it more.  Sometimes fine tuning can take a couple weeks to get the optimum playability.  Nothing wrong with that.

----------

MysTiK PiKn

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## Emmett Marshall

Thanks Tom.  I think more stuff gets ruined by people rushing than probably anything else?  I have to laugh though.  I never imagined a 70+ message thread on adjusting one nut. Whether or not I'm the nut that needs an adjustment remains to be seen. I'm off work tomorrow, so I'll be getting started on the mandolin.

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## Tom Haywood

You can take a pen and put a mark on one face of the nut, then you can see exactly how much it turned with whatever pressure you applied and see when you are at 1/8, etc.  Gives you a way to bring it back where it was if you need to. You can make sure the nut is free to turn by loosening it a little first before trying to tighten it. Tighten it about an eighth, then as Jeff indicated leave it alone for at least an hour or two, then see what it did. Repeat as necessary. Loosen the strings before you tighten it, but you can leave it up to pitch if you need to back it off a little and allow more relief.

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## Emmett Marshall

UPDATE:  She's getting sent back to the dealer.  I did adjust the truss rod, but it made little difference in getting rid of the buzz.  There is absolutely no doubt about it.  My frets aren't level.  The first fret is much higher than the rest.  I discovered that by sliding a straight edge down the neck.  Adjusting the truss rod turned out to be no big deal though.  I first loosened the nut...took it off in fact.  Then put a drop of some good gun oil on the threads, and adjusted 1/8 turn at a time after I got her snugged up against the washer.  It was cool to actually see things change with the neck.  It just wasn't enough to fix my problems.

----------

MysTiK PiKn, 

Tom Haywood

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## Emmett Marshall

UPDATE #2.  Spent the weekend thinking, thinking, thinking.  Complete change of plans now.  I decided that if this thing goes back to Saga, heaven only knows what will happen to my pick guard, florida scoop, non-stock nut, Cumberland bridge, and James tailpiece.  At the very least, they would try to return the KM-1500 back to their specs probably - which would mean shipping it out for a set up - again.  And to be totally honest, after what I've been through with this whole KM-1500 "Saga," I just don't trust those rascals anymore!  (laughing)

I found a luthier that fixes things like 1924 F-5 Loars and such. He's got a great rep but doesn't advertise - all word of mouth.  Anyway, he "guarantees" he can fix this mandolin and that I'll be 100% pleased with the results.  Who could ask for more than that?  So off she goes in the morning and I'm eager to spend time playing this mandolin in the near future instead of beating my head against the wall.  I'll let ya'll know what he finds wrong with it.  PS:  I am stealing Robert's truss rod wrench - Karma.

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## Jackgaryk

I bet your mandolin will be glad when you can spend a little time with her.  what's it been?  5 mo.?  you need to name this mandolin....she's getting "famous" in the café. :Mandosmiley:

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## Emmett Marshall

Hi Jack.  It's surreal isn't it?  All I wanted was a nice KM-1500.  Is that asking too much?  (laughing)  I'm very optimistic that my new-found luthier is going to stop the madness.  I am so tired of shipping it out here, there, and everywhere.  I told him the whole story starting at day #1, and he really "gets it."  He literally "promised" it would return to me in totally "right" condition with a low action. He'll have it Thursday.  I just can't wait to hear his diagnosis and share it with you all. As far as a name for the mandolin goes, I'm not good with that, but if any of you guys have any suggestions, I'll give her a name.  Heck, I'll write a song about her after that too!

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## MysTiK PiKn

How about "Ahhnold"

"Ahhl be bekk"  :Cool:

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## Emmett Marshall

> How about "Ahhnold


Henceforth, this mandolin is to be called "Arnold." (pronounced Ahhnold)  :Mad:   So there ya go Mystik.  You named a mandolin today.

As for the song, I'm thinking about running through it's build/mod/repair history - China, California, Arizona, North Dakota, Tennessee, and Missouri.  On the musical end, I can perhaps alter the melody to something, that "I think" is representative of each state and, definitely, the modification/repair that it underwent. Perhaps name the song, "I'll be Back".  When I get to pick guard installation, I can rhythm on the pick guard with the pick a bit. For warped neck I'll do some string bending. High frets = a little buzzing. This is going to be much fun.

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Rob Zamites

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## MysTiK PiKn

You realize that makes it a "boy" mandolin.  Mine is a boy also.  So far, his name is "Brat".  Pronounced "brat".  Cos he's always misbehaving; so I keep an eye on him, keep him in line; especially his neck.  I got his tailpiece in line now also.  I think I gotta lower his nut.  Well, his nut slots anyway.  But maybe the whole thing.  I was thinking of removing his nut, and sanding the bottom of it. Sounds painful, huh.  :Laughing:   :Disbelief:  Anyway, it's too high.  The slots are good, so just the bottom might lower it a tad.

A lot of people have "girl" mandos.  Mine is definitely not a girl; he doesn't look like a girl; although he is beautiful.  He is in good shape too.  And he roars sometimes - he's The Loar that Roars.  Not very girly, huh.  :Wink: 

For your song, maybe a "train song" would be good; cos they are like travelling, moving, active kinda songs.  Just a thought.  And they have simple kind of melody - you wouldn't need to copy anything, other than the down/down up/ down /down up kinda rhythm. It's easy to fit lyrics into those also. Other people could contribute.  You could sing it and record it - and become a mando monster.
 :Mandosmiley: 


You know, this bizarre thread is going to hit 3000 views and likely 5 pages by Friday-ish.

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Emmett Marshall

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## Emmett Marshall

> You know, this bizarre thread is going to hit 3000 views and likely 5 pages by Friday-ish.


Probably the exact same number of factory truss rod wrenches that these thieving luthiers have stashed away in their shops.  You guys ought to be so ashamed of yourselves.  Coincidence?  I think not.  :Grin:

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## BradleyP

This is a great thread and many thanks to all the awesome contributions especially Sunburst (John)   I ordered a 8MM trus rod spanner off ebay for a guitar A fender Heartfield ,got it after a week of waiting and it wouldn't fall into the cutout for the truss rod I found this thread and went ahead and spent around 30 plus minuted filing it down and got it to fit. I agree with people here ,we should not have to be doing this is a tool is made to do a certain job it should be as small as possible to fit in a confined space. Thanks to all here for saving me a bunch of grief ,I adjusted the truss rod and now  the guitar plays fine .thanks again.

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Emmett Marshall

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## Emmett Marshall

> This is a great thread and many thanks to all the awesome contributions especially Sunburst (John)


I agree! I'd also like to thank John and all the others who helped me learn so much about truss adjustments - and Robert for donating his wrench. The mandolin is now on it's way back home.  I asked the luthier what he had to do on it.  Here's his reply:  "I got your mandolin all worked up this morning and I am pretty positive you're going to love it.  It plays good, and sounds good.  I leveled all the Frets, recrowned the frets, lowered the action at the nut a lot.  I raised the bridge some and adjusted the truss rod a little bit to let it down a little bit.   It was just a little bit tight.  All in all, its in very very good shape."

So I guess it was a combination of things that caused my bridge to have to be jacked up so high on the bass side.  I am very excited that it's coming home AND playable.  I might have to make this gentleman my "primary care physician".

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## Emmett Marshall

> You realize that makes it a "boy" mandolin.  Mine is a boy also.


That's perfect actually, because his girlfriend, "Abbie" (The girl who always has a good time.) is waiting patiently in her case for him to return.

As far as the nut lowering on "Brat;" it would seem to me that sanding off the bottom would be much easier and a lot more "goof proof" than filing the slots?

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## MysTiK PiKn

> That's perfect actually, because his girlfriend, "Abbie" (The girl who always has a good time.) is waiting patiently in her case for him to return.
> As far as the nut lowering on "Brat;" it would seem to me that sanding off the bottom would be much easier and a lot more "goof proof" than filing the slots?


Actually no; it's more goofy than I thought - it's angled, might be correct like that - still staring at it, and playing with feeler guages. Perhaps sanding the bottom will maintain the angle.  But if I mess it up, I need to make a nut - and that would be like sculpture, terrifying sculpture - esp. 7 blanks later; don't want to go there.  If I get it down a little it will be noticeable improvement.  I'm also tweaking the truss rod to see how that affects it. This is all the fun you missed out on; but it's kinda tedious fun; and a learning experience, as is all of the above.




> leveled all the Frets, recrowned the frets, lowered the action at the nut a lot. I raised the bridge some and adjusted the truss rod


That's what I did to mine.  Except the nut.  It's just a little high.  But I really want to work the bridge slots also. I think the first string is being slightly muffles by the bridge slot #1-string.  I'm studying how to better shape the bridge for intonation - as per usual, I am not quite sure what I can do, will do, might do.  I work slowly.  :Wink: 
I am also breaking 1st string a lot; various places where it breaks, usually just inside the tuner - this might be nut related also.  But, wow, I have busted 4x 1st string.  My music store gave me 2 even tho there's no warranty on strings.  I think I need to do a closeup on shiny gold tuner where the string winds - maybe a sharp edge. ????

I do hope you, and Abbie, still like Ahnold when he's 'beck', and all dressed up.  Sounds like it's gonna be good.

Brat has a new strap.  just a cheapy, basic straight black leather.  I modded it with some leather lace through the scroll, and got creative tying it onto the basic strap.  It's nice to wander around playing.  I still want a nicer strap; but I think it's going to take a leather shop to get there.

I also raised the TailPiece angle - aligned it - with the bridge.

Cheers.

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## Emmett Marshall

> I am also breaking 1st string a lot; various places where it breaks, usually just inside the tuner - this might be nut related also.  But, wow, I have busted 4x 1st string.  My music store gave me 2 even tho there's no warranty on strings.  I think I need to do a closeup on shiny gold tuner where the string winds - maybe a sharp edge. ????


If you've only snapped 4 "E" strings, you are doing good!  I think I've busted well over a dozen - mostly when tuning.  I've learned that those strings don't like to be tuned up too fast. I now raise them up to pitch slowly - maybe a semitone at a time after they hit "C".  Then I get them up to "D#" and wait a little bit more before going to "E".  I break a lot less of them nowadays. I used to use Elixer Mediums, but have recently started using the D'Addario Customs.  I haven't broken any of them yet.

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## David Houchens

Kentucky 1500

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Emmett Marshall, 

Tom Haywood

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## MysTiK PiKn

2wayTruss AllenKey -TLoar700
Can't see it - but you can 'feel the Allen lock in'.

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## multidon

Emmett, it is interesting to me that you found a luthier that "fixes things like Lloyd Loar F-5s and such". Only 326 Loar F-5s are believed to have been made, and only in the neighborhood of 230 have been accounted for. We all know that they are quite valuable, and as a result of that only a relative handful of luthiers are trusted enough for the owner of a Loar to have them do work on them. These relatively few top of the heap luthiers are very well known to the mandolin community. And all the Loars seem to gravitate to them. So I am a bit incredulous that an unknown luthier works on Loars (plural) and such. What is the such, by the way? Loars are unique. I can't think of anything that would go into that "such" category other than modern master grade instruments like Gilchrists or Dudenbostels.

Maybe you could ask him if he would mind sharing his name here? Surely it would be a great service to our community to have knowledge of another skilled luthier who seems to be flying under the radar.

Sounds like your guy talks good game. I hope for your sake he has the skills to back it up and you end up with a great instrument.

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## sunburst

> ...only a relative handful of luthiers are trusted enough for the owner of a Loar to have them do work on them. These relatively few top of the heap luthiers are very well known to the mandolin community. And all the Loars seem to gravitate to them...


It is true, what you say, that Loar owners often seek out the top names when the time comes to have work done on a Loar. However, there are excellent repair people, scattered about, flying under the radar, who are plenty competent to do repair work on Loars, Gilchrists and Dudenbostels. Heck, _I've_ worked on Loars, Gilchrists and Dudenbostels (yes, plural). Many more than a handful of people are capable of such work. 
What we tend to see now days is: people buy Loar mandolins as investments because of the high market value, When they need repairs, owners are thinking of resale value as well as preserving value in general, and if a top name can be listed as doing the repair, the perception is that that will look better to potential buyers. Interestingly top names of mandolin _builders_ seem to carry more weight than "top" repair people, who, after all, are generally not as well known as people whose names are inlaid prominently in the pegheads of star's mandolins.
No particular point to this post other than; more than just a handful of luthiers can fix a Loar (or other "high end" mandolin), and there's a good chance we've "never heard of" quite a few of them. Seeking out the "top names" for Loar repair is more political than it is practical because lesser known people may be equally competent and qualified (if not more so) as a top builder. 
Take frets, for example. Lets suppose a "top" builder has built 500 mandolins. If he/she doesn't also do repair work, he/she might have done only 500 fret jobs, and no re-frets. Compare that to someone who has worked in instrument repair for decades but has not built any instruments, or has built very few. He/she may have done thousands of re-frets and countless other repairs. Who is likely to be most well known? Who is likely to be the better repair person?

Anyway, back on topic...
Emmett, glad you found someone to fix your mando, and I hope it comes back to you playing great.

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Emmett Marshall, 

multidon

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## Dale Ludewig

I couldn't agree more with John.  Building and repair are very different areas.  I've seen instruments built by great builders that aren't set up very well, for example.  If you're building and you blow something, you can pitch it into the trash (or fire) and start over.  No such luxury if you're dealing with someone else's instrument.  Repair work is also done on a finished instrument.  The bulk of the work of building is done before the finish goes on.  All sorts of ways to cover your tracks in the latter case.  I know a couple of incredible repair people who haven't built an instrument.

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multidon

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## multidon

John, Dale, I am actually in agreement with both of you.

I use the term "luthier" to refer to both those who make instruments and those who repair them. Perhaps you guys think of luthiers only as makers, but the dictionary definition includes repair folks, too.

Notice in my post that I didn't say only a handful of luthiers were capable of repairing a Loar, but rather only a handful are trusted. That trust a Loar owner places in their repair person may be rational or irrational, but John you definitely hit the nail on the head when you bring up the investment and resale value. These days I think a lot of Loar owners want to be able to tell potential buyers that the work was done by a well known person to preserve that value. Being able to name the person with a reputation is a sales plus. It is so in the violin world as well and has been for as long as I can remember. The attitude is that you wouldn't take you Strad to just anybody.

The luthier who worked on my violins before I moved is one of the best repair people I know, but only tried to build an instrument once and apparently it turned out so badly it was destroyed and building was never attempted again. So I understand that aspect for sure.

If I used the term "luthier" incorrectly, my apologies. I really thought it applied to builders a repair peop,e both.

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## Robbie Hamlett

Hi Don, this is my first post, I have been reading Mandolin Café for quite sometime but never joined as I am not a mandolin player, my only real association with the mandolin is I'm a John Hamlett's sister!  After reading your last post here, I looked up the definition of "luthier" and in some cases, you are correct, luthier is defined as one who builds and/or repairs stringed instruments, in other cases it is defined as one who builds stringed instruments such as violins.  So there does seem to be some leeway in who is considered a luthier!  If I knew how to post a link I would.   :Smile:

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## Dale Ludewig

Robbie, he's kept you a secret!  Next time we talk, he's got some 'splainin' to do!   :Smile:

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## sunburst

> ...If I used the term "luthier" incorrectly, my apologies. I really thought it applied to builders a repair peop,e both...


The term "luthier" definitely _does_ apply to both builders and repairers. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Under the heading "luthier", however, there are specialists in building, specialists in repair, and those who function in both worlds.

So Dale, any siblings in your family? We don't know about them... :Wink:

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## Dale Ludewig

One brother.   :Smile: 

Aren't you going to have to change your "location" in your sign on info sometime soon?

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## multidon

Hi Robbie! Welcome to the Cafe!

I'm an only child, if anyone gives a #%^*.  :Smile:

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## sunburst

> Aren't you going to have to change your "location" in your sign on info sometime soon?


Seems like its taking forever(!) but yes, I guess I'll get around to changing my "location" eventually.
Let's see... what _was_ this thread about??

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## multidon

Five pages and over a hundred posts because someone's truss rod wrench wouldn't fit in the hole. In other words, business as usual around these parts.

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## Emmett Marshall

> Sounds like your guy talks good game. I hope for your sake he has the skills to back it up and you end up with a great instrument.


mutlidon:

It is not my place to "offer him up" to this community.  He does not advertise. He gets his work by word of mouth.  This is how he wants it. If it weren't for that, I'd have shared his name with you already. I can tell you for an absolute fact that he recently set up a 1923 Lloyd Loar F5.  There is more proof to this than him simply telling me that.  He has also been a luthier and builder for over 30 years.  There is nothing I can do about anyone finding this "incredulous."  No offense, but I actually had to laugh.  I find someone who fixes fine string instruments and probably doesn't want to get swamped. I don't understand why this would be an issue for anyone?

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Eric C., 

multidon

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## Jeff Mando

> mutlidon:
> 
> It is not my place to "offer him up" to this community.  He does not advertise. He gets his work by word of mouth.  This is how he wants it. If it weren't for that, I'd have shared his name with you already. I can tell you for an absolute fact that he recently set up a 1923 Lloyd Loar F5.  There is more proof to this than him simply telling me that.  He has also been a luthier and builder for over 30 years.  There is nothing I can do about anyone finding this "incredulous."  No offense, but I actually had to laugh.  I find someone who fixes fine string instruments and probably doesn't want to get swamped. I don't understand why this would be an issue for anyone?


I agree there is a whole world of collecting that exists outside of internet forums and has for many years.  Many older (and some younger) collectors don't even know what the internet is, and certainly don't care.  They would never dream of buying a guitar without first playing it and would never buy from eBay, for whatever reason they may have.   Many, also, have "world class" collections that most pros would be jealous of.  Speaking from my own experience, working at a vintage guitar store, I got to meet many of these people.  If I made a mental list of all the "rare" guitars and instruments I've worked on over the years, you wouldn't believe me, both vintage as well as modern boutique.  The instruments are out there and from time to time, need repair.  Some of the collectors will not leave an instrument overnight, for whatever fears they may have--fire, theft, etc.,--certainly paranoia to the extreme for the welfare of their instruments.  One man would drive two hours for me to work on his old Gibson J-35 on a Saturday morning, I would work on it all day while he shopped, ran errands, ate, etc., and when I was finished hours later, he would take it and drive two hours back home.  He would never dream of shipping an instrument and putting it to such risk.  If he felt it needed more work, we would schedule it again for another Saturday.  A totally different mentality than what we commonly consider the normal around here.  And "normal" for me is dealing with clientele who are fussy by nature.  My point is that I am not a "big name" luthier, but merely someone he trusts to work on his "baby".  Not to brag, but I don't advertise, either, and I have been lucky to have had plenty of work over the years.  It is not hard for me to believe that there would be repairmen all over the country with similar experiences.

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MysTiK PiKn

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## multidon

Hey there emmett, I meant no disrespect. The way you expressed it, "things like Loar F-5s and such", it just sounded a little off to me. Like an unsubstantiated boast perhaps? As discussed above, most Loar owners these days seem to want to have them worked on by "name" luthiers. Now your post and Jeff's above have taught me that there is an "underground" of "stealth" luthiers out there working on high level instruments. I really don't understand how ones finds out about these folk. "Word of mouth" is fine I guess, but what if someone needs a luthier like that but isn't plugged into whatever network or circle or whatever your guy travels in?

I have no particular interest, this is no issue for me, I don't live in your state and most likely never will. It's just if there is someone out there that's that good, well, folks like to know about it. But if he, and others like Jeff, prefer to stay under the radar, that's their business for sure.

Again, no offense intended. My apologies.

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## MysTiK PiKn

The "paranoia" is the only real insurance, or assurance, that's available. Unique pieces, usually "olde", but not necessarily, often cannot be replaced.  Insurance just doesn't cut it; money doesn't replace what THAT is.!!!
It's not easy finding someone to trust.  I trusted one person, offered his name, and recommended him - but when I needed work on my mando, he wouldn't go there - he referred me to some other person. So, Now what?  I called a well known luthier, left messages, emailed - no response, no contact.  Found out that person has a reputation for not responding - I suppose he's busy doing what he wants to do.  And why not?  For me, it's not only difficult finding someone, it's also difficult retaining such a trusted contact.  Threet Guitars was THE place when I lived in Alberta - but Threet stopped repairing due to a waiting list 2 years deep for new guitars. Anyway, all this led to me doing my own work, as much as possible.  But there's some other work I would like done - and I could perhaps do it myself; but I hesitate on that "perhaps" word.  Sometimes I think sell it; but I can't get another one.  And my situation is just tiny compared to bigtime collectors - that's a whole other world.  What are these guys doing with herds of instruments? Hopeless addiction?  maybe..........

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## Emmett Marshall

> Hey there emmett, I meant no disrespect. The way you expressed it, "things like Loar F-5s and such", it just sounded a little off to me. Like an unsubstantiated boast perhaps? As discussed above, most Loar owners these days seem to want to have them worked on by "name" luthiers. Now your post and Jeff's above have taught me that there is an "underground" of "stealth" luthiers out there working on high level instruments. I really don't understand how ones finds out about these folk. "Word of mouth" is fine I guess, but what if someone needs a luthier like that but isn't plugged into whatever network or circle or whatever your guy travels in?
> 
> I have no particular interest, this is no issue for me, I don't live in your state and most likely never will. It's just if there is someone out there that's that good, well, folks like to know about it. But if he, and others like Jeff, prefer to stay under the radar, that's their business for sure. Again, no offense intended. My apologies.


No offense taken Don.  It's just that my experience in finding this gentleman didn't seem weird to me.  I really don't know "why" He doesn't put himself "out there," so to speak.  He was highly recommended to me by someone I know personally that knows him. Perhaps he likes to choose his customers? If so, I'm honored. Frankly, I was surprised he even took the job, but I did tell him about the saga concerning this instrument. Perhaps he felt sorry for me? Don, he IS a resource to the mandolin community - just not here. He teaches, he builds, and obviously repairs as well.  

I am now also convinced that a lot happens outside these Internet walls - more now than ever.  When I first started playing, I would come here for just about everything, and a huge resource this cafe is! Little by little though, I am seeing some curtains open and learning that many things happen in the world of mandolins that are not discussed on the forums for, perhaps again, a variety of reasons.

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## sunburst

> ...Threet Guitars was THE place when I lived in Alberta...


There's an example right there. How many people here are familiar with Judy Threet? A first class luthier by any standard.

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## Tom Haywood

Posting this because I agree with John that it is easy enough to build in a truss rod slot that allows for a decent adjustment tool. I don't have any worries about this headstock being too thin.

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sunburst

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## Tom Haywood

Also, would like to hear Emmett's review after the setup. The luthier's earlier description shows that setups are a balance between a number of things, and rarely are a simple adjustment to one or two things.

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## Jackgaryk

> Also, would like to hear Emmett's review after the setup. The luthier's earlier description shows that setups are a balance between a number of things, and rarely are a simple adjustment to one or two things.


yeah im wanting to hear from him too.  poor ol' Emmett aint had a chance to bond with this mandolin since he bought it.

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## Emmett Marshall

> yeah im wanting to hear from him too.  poor ol' Emmett aint had a chance to bond with this mandolin since he bought it.


Hi Everybody!  Sorry it has taken me this long to share with you about Arnold's latest surgery.  I've had the mandolin back for about a week, but I've also been working 84 hours a week, so I didn't want to post the latest update until I had more playing time.

The luthier did a great job.  He lowered the action big time.  The bridge is no longer set at an extreme angle.  It is so easy to play now!  Would you believe he made a video for me of him doing the repair work?  He talks while he does the work and explains what he is doing and why. This guy amazes me.  He said that if I wasn't happy, to just send it back and he'll work on the setup again for FREE - plus shipping.

I couldn't be happier. After he leveled the frets, he did a very minimal crowning.  He said that leaving them a bit flat would not only make them last longer, but also allowed him to make my action lower than about 90% of the mandolins out there. I know this much, I can slide a 1.4mm pick between the strings and fret #7 and it won't go anywhere. Now I understand why he works on instruments for the pros.  There "are" little tricks.

At first, my "G" string still "buzzed," so I called him up with, "What the heck?"  Then he said it didn't buzz for him and that it probably settled a bit after he did the work.  Two turns of the nut on the bass side, and one turn on the treble side, and I'm up and running.  

It's just my luck that as soon as the mandolin gets fixed, I get swamped with 80+ hours of work a week with no end in sight.  The bright side is that I can start saving for a Danny Roberts F-5 Fern, and write soulful songs about being worn out from 16 hour shifts. 

I know I've already said "thanks," but I'm gonna say it again anyway.  Thanks to all who have tried to help me figure out what was wrong and get this baby singing.

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Jackgaryk

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