# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  How Many of You Have Got To Play A Loar?

## Sam Bush Fan!

I was wondering how many of have got the chanse to play a Loar,I've played two and one of witch was released on the same day as Monroe's. I would  like to hear you experience with a Loar.

----------


## Rick Schmidlin

I played John Reishmans, what more can be said  :Smile:

----------


## Daniel Nestlerode

I've played two, including a July 9, 1923.
Neither impressed me.  They both sounded a little thin and were set up with higher action than I like.  So maybe it was like wearing someone else's shoes. But I'll take my Vessel over a Loar every time.

Scratch that.  If someone offered me a Loar for my Vessel, I'd swap 'em.  Then I'd sell the Loar and have Gary build me at least two new mandos before I pay off my mortgage.

This is just my heretical --some might say-- opinion.  :Wink: 

Daniel

----------


## George R. Lane

Like Tone Monster, I too played John Reischmans. I was incredibly light and loud. The other was one that Greg Boyd had in his shop, it was nice but nothing compared to Reischmans.  John played my Weber and made it sound wonderful, I on the other hand still sound the same.

----------


## staggarlee

I played a Loar about 3 years ago at a jam party for new year's eve.  At the time I did not know it was a Loar. The owner was interested in my mandolin which is made by a local luthier.  We traded for a few songs.   Since I did not know what I was playing I was concentrating more on what this guy was doing with MY mandolin.  I thought the Loar played nice and sounded pretty good but honestly liked mine better.

A couple hours later, my buddy Danny Knicely came up and said "so how'd you like the Loar?"  Of course my mouth dropped but I still insisted quietly that I liked mine better.

That is my ho-hum story about trying out a Loar.  I wonder what my opinion would have been had I known what it was beforehand?

Josh

----------


## Ken_P

> This is just my heretical --some might say-- opinion.


I agree, for what it's worth. I played a Loar when Mandolin Bros. had one in house eariler this year. Didn't like it at all. Sounded nice, but not spectacular, and I couldn't hold or play it comfortably. Between the pickguard, flat fretboard, full extension and super skinny neck, it just wasn't for me. I'd much rather commission one of the top builders to make something new - it would be vastly cheaper, sound as good (or better), and come built to my specifications. How can you beat that?

----------


## Mike Bunting

Mandolirious, where's your story. It's one of the best of all time.

----------


## Don Grieser

I've found that what you hear as the player is way different than what you hear standing in front of a Loar. They were made to project to back of the concert hall. My .02. 

I've played 3, mainly Reischman's several different times, another one with the same date as JR's, and Frank's. My 10 year old Model 5 Gilchrist is close--give it another 70 years. Let's see, I'll be 124 then.  :Grin:

----------


## sgarrity

I got to play one for a good half hour and I've been in the presence of several others.  What Don said about projection is very true.  The Loar I played was one of Herschel's and it was a spectacular mandolin in every way.  But ya know what.....when I played the Loar I sounded like Shaun Garrity.  And when Herschel played my Heiden, he sounded just like Herschel Sizemore.

----------


## Dan Cole

I got to play one once.  It was an April 1923 as I recall.  If I dig through the archives here I could find the original posting. Its a long story but the best part was that the owner allowed me to have the experience.  I'll never forget it.

----------


## Roger Kunkel

I've also played John Reishman's and it is everything they say. Power in the bass, and clear even tone as well - amazing responsiveness.

The other super instrument I got to play recently was Ed Neff's Nugget (#1). Super light and responsive, much like John's, I'd say.

----------


## Willie Poole

I have played four and only one did anything for me, It was one that Gene Johnson owned when he played mandolin with Cliff Waldron, one had a Virizi and didn`t impress me at all...I own a Loar copy that sounds much like Monroes Loar and I don`t take it out much any more...I like my new Ratliff as well as any of the Loars....Willie

----------


## johnwalser

I was at both LoarFests in Bakersfield a few years ago and think I played all that were brought each year.  A few were very good, one was excellent and the rest were just "nice little instruments".  At the second Loarfest, Steve Gilchrist let me play his personal F5 and if given a choice ( and no money considerations involved ), that's the one I would have brought home.
John

----------


## Tom Sanderson

I've played 3 or 4. One was a mandola

----------


## Brad Weiss

I've played Mike Marshall's for a short time.  It was really cool to see how he's tweaked it. Radiused fretboard, some funky paper wedges under the nut, and John Monteleone reworked the braces, after Mike and Todd Phillips ripped out the virzi.  I just loved the irreverence- it's one of the most well-played (and played SO well) mandolins you'll ever see. And I sounded like me, not like Mike, so I wasn't blown away by the sound, except when Mike played it.

----------


## D C Blood

I've played on quite a number of them, and probably at least half of them were not impressive to me.  A few were downright bad, a few were really great, and the big majority were above average.  My first Loar experience was when a good friend offered me a choice of two, one Virzi, one not.  Price was $1200, for my choice. (this was 1969)At the time I had the 1934 Duffey F-7, which is still the best mandolin I've ever played.  So I said to him, "why would I want one of those when I've got this (and chopped across a chord or two).  I added something like "Ill never pay that much for a mandolin" ...Just as well I didn't buy one.  I probably would have sold it as soon as the price hit $2000...John Paganoni had a good one he let me play a whole night at a club, when he was called away on USAF duty.  I played one of Benny Cain's that was real nice.  But most were just above average.

----------


## Rick Crenshaw

I played one and been up close to several.  The one I played is owned by a well known musician.  It was a good mandolin, but not knock your socks off good.  I think my current primary player sounds at least as good fundamentally.  You can't get that dry-airy aged sound from something that isn't old.  But the fundamental tone was not as satisfying as my #1 mando.  But then I've learned to pull the tone (well, as best I am able) from my main axe.

We truly are living in the Golden Age of Lutherie.  We owe a lot to L.Loar.

----------


## Sam Bush Fan!

> I've played two


I have actually Played three!

----------


## Tom Mullen

I have played 7,  including 2 in the same day. I also played THE Loar A5 many years ago that a buddy of mine owns.  3 of the Loars were before I appreciated them. They were just old mandolins that were called "Loars".

----------


## Matt Bowe

75313 & 75327.
Also John Duffey's F-12.
The longer you play them, the better they sound.

----------


## JAK

If you listen to the cd, "Tone Poets," you will have the opportunity to hear how a number of different mando players sound playing the same instrument.  The instrument is Grisman's 1922 Loar F5.  This recording, as the liner notes express, "...attempts to define the relationship between the musician and the instrument...."  It is very interesting to hear how each player pulls a different tone from the same instrument.  Sometimes the tone is loud and clear, and sometimes subdued and mellow, depending on who is playing.  I was particularly interested in the tone that John Reischman produced, and it was a more mello tone than some of the other players.  Tone Poets was produced in 2005, but it is timeless regarding the many wonderful musicians captured here, and the sound they produced....(no financial interest)

----------


## mandolirius

> Mandolirious, where's your story. It's one of the best of all time.


Reposted from the Monroe Appreciation Society social group:


Seems like a good time to tell this one. It took place in 1978 at the University of Calgary. Our friendly board moderator, Mr. Bunting knows this story because he was in the audience and thank goodness for that because it is a bit unbelievable.

I was in the opening band. We were called Back Up & Push. I know, not very original. Anyway, we got called up on stage towards the end of show to help sing on the gospel medley - Swing Low, I'll Fly Away, I Saw The Light - and at some point (I really don't remember when, Monroe turned around and handed me his mandolin. I stood there unable to move and had to be nudged into playing by Butch Robbins. For some reason, Bill kept going and went into John Henry. Someone else was taking a break when Monroe turned around and asked me if I would take a solo. I just shook my head and mumbled that I was too nervous. He nodded and turned back to the microphone. When the next break came around, Kenny Baker and Butch Robbins faked me out. They made it look like Kenny was going for the mic but Butch had gotten behind me and he shoved me right up to the mic. I think Bill might have been in on it to because he moved aside just at the right time.

In this pre-digital era, no one I knew had gotten a picture because they'd all run out of film by that point. As for what it was like playing the mandolin, all I remember was that the action was brutal and it was ridiculously loud.

----------


## evanreilly

I guess 'brutal' is a good description of the action on #73987.  The first time I picked it up, I was confused; can some one actually play this?  I played it after it was re-built; the action was a lot tamer.  I have a pic of me playing #73987 somewhere...  someday I'll find it.
I have played probably a dozen to two dozen; most were pretty impressive.  A few were doggier, but still you could tell they were very well made instruments.  Some needed work, period!!  Some had the elusive eau de Loar; some didn't.
But just remember: lots of other folks are still striving for the best copy of that model!

----------


## f5loar

I lost count after about a 100.  The worst one I played was still pretty darn good.  I've picked on about 2 dozen that would be called "near mint" and they sounded great.
Seems those '22 and '23 years are better then the '24 year.  Most Virzi ones not so great but some Virzi ones fantastic.  The best one I've played would have to be the William Place,Jr custom gold plated June 13, 1923.
I would assume Sir Place picked it out at the factory as he and Mr. Loar were best buds. While you could say they all pretty much are the same, no two sounded alike.  I've played about 3 sets of consective numbers and different as night and day yet still very similiar.

----------


## Chris Rogers

Wow, a hundred. How many do you suppose are out there?

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

Only seen one,never played it,(wasn't playing Mandolin then) - but Bill Monroe kept it in his case any way. It sounded ok though !,
                                            Ivan :Wink:

----------


## Mike Snyder

Frank Ray handed me one of his at the Starvy Creek BG Festival one time. I was trying out an F4 at his instrument sales booth, and mentioned that it sounded different than an F5. He said, "Here, try this." I was pretty dumb back then. I hit two chops and handed it back. I was scared I'd have a fit and drop it. The sound was scary too. I hope he got his health issues resolved.

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

May I turn the thread around? I would lilke to play a couple of Loar F-5 (the A-5 too) mandolins. I´d like to see and hear how they feel like, how they play like and then find out why they do sound and play like the way they do.

I think Loars (okay vintage F style mandolins) can be ear opening. You may think the sound is not for you. Norman Blake is reported to not like the "brash" sound of a Loar for his music. I find that the Loar F-5 has a sound of its own. It is the benchmark for the bluegrass sound and works for a great number of styles (though you may not want to use it for super sweet new age music...). I find that like with great guitars (or banjos etc.) there´s a "mystique" why the instrument sounds so darn good. People have tried to explain but I think that the number of factors involved is so great that it´s - almost - impossible to come up with an answer.

----------


## Glassweb

indeed, the Loar F5 is considered the benchmark for a bluegrass mandolin... if for no other reason than Monroe played one. but let's not forget that these instruments were actually designed long before bluegrass evolved and were really intended for the classical and popular music of the day. i find that the best mandolins allow one the freedom to go anywhere they like musically (look what Andy Statman did in his 30 years of playing an A2 snakehead... an oval hole mandolin!) and will enable the player to work easily with volume and dynamics. sure, plenty of mandolins can do certain things well, but a great F5 style mandolin can do a lot of things well and can help get you where you want to go.

----------


## Tim W

I've only played maybe a dozen of them, among them was John Reischmans many times in the 80's at nearly every festival I went to, seemed the Good Ol' Persons were always there too. He'd just hand that thing to you knowing you'd guard it with your life, plus we were aquainted at the time.

I don't really have a favorite from all those I just remember that none of them were dogs, all sounded good, some brighter, some muddier or dark sounding. The only one I played a lot was the one I wrote that history on for the journal, the  Sept 18, 1924 #76081 Loar that so many have owned at one time or another since I got to babysit it and try to wear it out. 

All of them were different in thier tonal qualities but one thing was the same on all of them, they all had great tone and were alive from being played constantly. None of them were wall hangers so to speak.

----------


## JeffD

> Wow, a hundred. How many do you suppose are out there?


I have heard there are several hundred presumed to be out there somewhere, four hundred or so made.

Is that right?

----------


## JeffD

> If you listen to the cd, "Tone Poets," you will have the opportunity to hear how a number of different mando players sound playing the same instrument.  The instrument is Grisman's 1922 Loar F5.



That is my main experience with a Loar.

And the sound of the mandolin on those recordings is really fantastic. It was a real ear opener for me. 

There are probably several extremely well made mandolins, vintage and modern that would sound as good to my ears, but not a whole lot of them.

----------


## Scotti Adams

Ive played probably half a dozen..the last being Bibeys...he handed it to me out of the clear blue sky...incredible mando.

Back in 85 (?) was the first time I played one. It was Charlie D's. That had to be the absolute best Loar Ive ever played. It was for sale at the time but I couldnt sway my dad to chalk up the $11,000 to buy it....yes I said $11,000. I was only 19 at the time..I didnt have that kind of jack. I know there was a Japanese fellow wanting awfully bad too. Maybe some of you in the know can elaborate on that Loar. I heard later that the Japanese guy did buy the mando..but I could never substantiate that. Since then Ive played 6 or 8.

----------


## BadeInBulverde

Well ... as I mentioned in the Siminoff Lutherie Camp thread ... I along with my fellow campers got to play Lloyd Loar's "personal" F5 ... I couldn't tell you what the serial number is or even what year it was made ... the story from Roger was that when he took possession of it it had a pickup mounted that has since been removed ... at the time the several of us there at the camp were so in awe of actually holding/playing a Loar and taking pictures I suspect none of us could tell you how it sounded or even if it played well ... it was one of those "I'm never gonna wash this hand again ..." moments ...  :Smile:   ... and we had access to it all week to take pictures of, examine closely ... so .. yeah ... I "played a Loar" ... but probably not in the same vein as the OP was asking ... 

Bade

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I've played a few over the years.  They are all different but all the same.  If you will notice, the great ones are in the hands of great players.  Funny how that works eh?  They just happened to buy the better sounding ones?

----------


## AlanN

> Ive played probably half a dozen..the last being Bibeys...he handed it to me out of the clear blue sky...incredible mando.


And it just so happens to be 09-Jul-1923

----------


## danb

> I have heard there are several hundred presumed to be out there somewhere, four hundred or so made.
> 
> Is that right?


Here's my count:
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/signature_dates.html

----------


## Jeff Harvey

I have probably played about 6 or 7. One I really liked I could of had for 8500.00, but like Scotti I was only about 19 then as well. I had a collector store a couple at my warehouse and he wanted me to play them, one was a fern. I played them but wasnt that impressed and my wife told me to put them back cause she was afraid the dog would get hold of one of them and bury it in the backyard! It was pretty cool to have 2 Loars in my hands. One time I was called into the warehouse by this collector. I was really busy so I didnt want to go out there. I'm glad I did. He had 8 pre-war D45's set out for me to play!! I had to take the time to play them cause I knew I probably wouldnt get the chance again!!

----------


## KristinEliza

I got to play Andy Owen's last summer (thank you ANDY!)...but I was more impressed with his newer Gibson model (sorry...the model escapes me right now), as well as his Gilchrist Mandola (man that was sweet).

I'm sure I wasn't paying much attention to the Loar...too nervous and excited to play it.  Don't know why, I've played a Stradivarious and an Amati violin before and they were worth substantially more!

----------


## Steve Perry

> But ya know what.....when I played the Loar I sounded like Shaun Garrity.  And when Herschel played my Heiden, he sounded just like Herschel Sizemore.



Don't ya hate when that happens!  :Laughing: 

I've only played one.  The July 9, 1923 that Elderly had at IBMA this year.  Granted, it was noisy in the hall and not a good venue for critical listening, but it didn't do anything for me.  It wasn't that it was bad, but it's just that it didn't sound any different than any MM or DMM.  I guess I was expecting one of those OMG moments and it just didn't happen.  Of course, it could have been like Shaun's experience above too.  :Laughing:   Sure would like to try one in a little more friendly environment though.

----------


## Sam Bush Fan!

It seems a lot of you have got to play John Reischman's Loar,what's the story behind that?

----------


## Willie Poole

A lot of us, myself included play one mandolin one time and make a judgment on how it sounds and if we are not in a room that has decent accoustics we are short changing ourselves as to our opinions of an instrument....I have visited many up grade music stores and those have a nice accousticly sounding place to play and listen to instruments because they want to sell them...That being said I posted earlier that I had played three Loars and none really didn`t do a lot for me and it could have been because of the place I was playing them....I have a nice room here at my house where I record my band and most of the instruments that I own are set up in that room by myself and of course I think they sound great, the ones that didn`t sound so great have long been gotten rid of and whether an instrument sounds good is a matter of opinion as to what the listener likes and wants....As far as all of the good Loars are in the hands of super pickers, it might just have something to do with them being super pickers, some mando pickers can make anything sound good, like Dempsy Young, he played one of my mandolins and made it sound just like his great sounding Hutto, but when I play it it don`t sound like that....Good post and a lot of good info and opinions here....Willie

----------


## gummia

I played Cris Thile's Loar last summer.  Dated on February 18th 1924 #75316
one serial nr. after Lloyd Loars own mandolin. 

It is a beautiful instrument, and felt light in my hands.  And I loved the setup. 
He has put on a radiused fingerboard, with 12,5" radius and thicker frets, and also Waverly tuners and a new nut. But everything else is original and no virzi. 
He also has a very low action so the strings felt loose.

It had a good tone and seemed loud. But I only played it for about 10 mins max.
And is the only one I have come into contact with so I have no comparison.

----------


## Sam Bush Fan!

> I played Cris Thile's Loar


Wow that must of been an experience just to meet Thile but to play his Loar! I envy you

----------


## Paul Kotapish

I've played a half-dozen or so. Some of them--John Reischman's for example--are mind blowing. Based on my limited experience and a lot of conversations with fanatics, I'd say that their charms are typically a little more subtle. They are not uniform in sound color or volume, and there is a range of workmanship in the fit and finish. A couple of characteristics that seem to define the best Loars are rich, crystal-clear mids and highs, and the capacity to take a lot of attack without breaking up. Lots of mandolins sound lush in the lower registers or really loud and bright at the high end, but the Loars seem particularly well balanced from the bottom G to that stratospheric C on the extension. And plenty of instruments sound fabulous with a light or medium attack but break up or sound thin when punched hard. The Loars I've played just keep delivering the sound. In fact, my experience is the Loars need a little extra push get moving and then . . . watch out.

----------


## Clamdigger

I got to play Joe Val's Loar which is now owned by Kevin Lynch.  Played and sounded great but to tell you the truth, the whole time it was in my hands I was afraid I was going to drop it.  Clamdigger

----------


## adizz

i've been lucky enough to play 3, and sit with ronnie mccoury while he picked his. 1 unsigned,1 july 9, and danny roberts dec 22. all of them were very cool, but danny's is probably the best mandolin I've ever heard/played. His was what i expected a loar to be

----------


## mandolirius

Loars I've played: Monroe's (onstage...see earlier post)
                         Wakefield's (just for a moment)
                         Reischman's (great but I couldn't make sound like John   
                         does)
                         Phil Williams' (Seattle area musician)
                         Two more belonging to non-famous people

I liked Phil Williams mandolin the best. But I got to play it for about two hours while doing some desk-duty at a bluegrass workshop. It felt like it was getting better and better every minute I played it.

----------


## re simmers

I played Benny Cain's 5 Loars back in about 1990.(I think)             I was just starting and didn't know much.   Benny said 4 were not any good, but one of them was insured for $25K.  
I played 4 of Herschel's briefly when I took a lesson a couple years ago.   To me, they made his living room seem to echo the sound.   
I played David  McLaughlin briefly backstage at Gettysburg.   Lots of volume.
I heard one played on stage at Gettysburg about 15 years ago.   It was loud, but out of tune all night and 'hard' sounding.....not musical. 

Bob

----------


## brianf

To sum it up, you are all saying that every mandolin sounds different, even Loars. :Mandosmiley:

----------


## f5loar

Benny Cain 5 Loars, Herschel 4 Loars, Grisman 4 Loars, Skaggs 3 Loars and I could name at least 10 more guys with 3 or more Loars so ain't no wonder there is not enough to go around....... too many pickers hogging them up.
I would think any mandolin picker would be ticked pink with just 2 Loars. Most would be happy with just one.

----------


## Glassweb

I've played more than 50 Loars to date and have owned 8 over the last fifteen years. I'm now happily married to #79719. Game over...  :Wink:

----------


## mandolirius

> Benny Cain 5 Loars, Herschel 4 Loars, Grisman 4 Loars, Skaggs 3 Loars and I could name at least 10 more guys with 3 or more Loars so ain't no wonder there is not enough to go around....... too many pickers hogging them up.
> I would think any mandolin picker would be ticked pink with just 2 Loars. Most would be happy with just one.


The one sure thing is that they are only temporary custodians. All these instruments will find new owners some day.

----------


## Glassweb

we're all just renters here...

----------


## mandolirius

> we're all just renters here...


Yep, livin' on borrowed time. Hey, it's a mortality fest! Time to sing a gospel song.

----------


## Mike Bunting

Further Along we'll all play Loars (and I don't mean The Loars)

----------


## man dough nollij

> Further Along we'll all play Loars (and I don't mean The Loars)


You mean it's "harp-optional"?  :Confused:

----------


## Glassweb

> Further Along we'll all play Loars (and I don't mean The Loars)


AMEN brother! Life is _definitely_ too short to be playing "The Loars" ...

----------


## sunburst

I can't really play mandolin, but I've "played" several, probably over a dozen.
David Mclaughlin's was my favorite for a long time, then I played Reishman's and I liked it a little better, then I played one owned by a friend who lives one state away and that one blew me away! Then I put frets in one from a couple of states away and that's the one!! It's a '24, and it does everything one could want a mandolin to do! It's my favorite mandolin that I've heard.
Many others have been just mandolins, some a little disappointing but only because they are Loars and that raises expectations, all are good mandolins. I haven't really liked any that I've played with Virzis. I got to play Monroe's once briefly, a few '22s that were very good.
I've yet to play Wakefield's, but I'm told by a couple of Loar owners that it is the best.

----------


## Glassweb

years ago Frank's was incredible... i played it a bunch in the 1970's when i used to shlep him around NYC as a teenage mandolin wannabee. i'm afraid it's been around the block a bit too much to sound like it did when it was "freshly baked"  :Wink: 

all you have to do is listen to Frank's classic recordings with Red Allen and you'll have a much better idea what all this Loar stuff is about.

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> ...A couple of characteristics that seem to define the best Loars are rich, crystal-clear mids and highs, and the capacity to take a lot of attack without breaking up. Lots of mandolins sound lush in the lower registers or really loud and bright at the high end, but the Loars seem particularly well balanced from the bottom G to that stratospheric C on the extension. And plenty of instruments sound fabulous with a light or medium attack but break up or sound thin when punched hard. The Loars I've played just keep delivering the sound. In fact, my experience is the Loars need a little extra push get moving and then . . . watch out.


This is an interesting post concerning the "mystique" of great instruments. While I have seen great musicians wearing themselves out on mediocre instruments pounding and pounding on them to turn out volume in order to be heard a great instrument just needs to be played. It will not fight you concerning volume, attack and projection.

When it comes to either guitars, banjos, mandolins (from a bluegrass perspective), great instruments will allways have a great projection at all volume levels without lacking tone while you don´t have to whip the instrument to death. This I found especially true with vintage F-5 mandolins, prewar/wartime Gibson and Martin guitars and vintage banjos. There are modern builders that come to mind that build instruments with these qualities but only age and constant playing give the instruments the "airyness" and openness of sound that a true vintage instrument has.

If you have never played an old instrument you ought to if only to experience this feeling. The way an instrument sounds is quite often a matter of taste. So if you like the Callace, Embergher, Lyon & Healy, Gibson etc. sound that´s up to you.

There are some videos by f5loar and evan riley on youtube. Why don´t you ( Loar owners) post your soundclips/videos here to complete this thread.  :Smile:

----------


## D C Blood

Lee ...reminds me of the cartoon I saw a long time ago...Man entering the Pearly Gates...St. Peter hands him a harp...man, looking suspiciously at the harp, looks up and says "is it a Gibson???" :Smile:

----------


## AlanN

I've played Numero Uno a couple of times. That has the tone.

----------


## Austin Koerner

AlanN, the guy who owns the first loar, does he live in Smithfield, nc?

----------


## Charles E.

I have played two, one owned by Tony Williamson ( of Mandolin Central ) and the other was Mike Marshall's. I met Mike, Darrol and Mat Hamovitz back stage before a show and Mike just handed his Mandolin to me and then played mine. It was an amazing experiance.

----------


## Brady Smith

I've messed around with a handful of them.  Frank's is still a dandy and smooth as butter to play.

----------


## AlanN

Think so.

----------


## Willie Poole

Mr. Simmers...you are refering to a Loar being out of tune, was it Ron`s of Dry Branch Fire Squad...His stays out of tune...Also I can assure you that Frank Wakefields Loar is not original, I was present when the thing was taken apart and new tone bars were added and I don`t know what all was done to it but it was a dog before a noted repairman worked on it back in the early `60`s...It`s possible I guess that it originally had a Virizi and it was removed so new tone bars would be normal in most cases....Some great reading on here as usuall, a person can gain a lot of info from most of you that have been around for a while....

   Wasn`t one of Bennie Caines Loars suspect since it had a serial number that was a duplicate of another mandolin? And again some don`t have stickers but experts still say they are Loars, it makes me wonder.....Regards....Willie

----------


## turpintony

My good friend owns 75324 which is listed as one of the ten best on the F-5 Journal. He has allowed me to play this fine instrument many times. What an experience ! The sound is amazing and pure. It is a special sound that is only surpassed by an instrument that defines the sound of bluegrass music.

----------


## Pete Martin

I have played several dozen.  I liked them all, but some stood above the crowd.  Reichmans and the A5 are the favorites!

To my ears, they all had "that sound".  Many sounded mostly unplayed, so they would need a few years of hard pounding to open them up, but they all had "it".

I've been lucky enough to play a small number of Stradavarious violins as well.  Two were the most incredible sounding machines I've ever held in my hands...  Many similarities in both makers about what your body felt when you played them (besides that big tug at your bank account). :Mandosmiley:

----------


## buckles

At times I've heard Loars compared to Stradivarius violins, but it seems to me a better comparison would be to Guarnerius del Gesu violins.  In another thread on mandolincafe, the one where the Loar A5 is being discussed, Hans Brentrup mentions that Loars tend to be graduated somewhat thicker than some of the fine modern mandolins.  Another post mentions that Loars sometimes feel as if they require more work to get the tone out, but when it gets out, it's a great sound.  Both the thicker graduation and the need to play harder are characteristics of del Gesus as compared to Strads.

I wonder if we shouldn't be comparing the Loar to the most famous del Gesu violin of all, the one owned and played by Paganini.  It is known as "The Cannon" (a term totally familiar to bluegrassers) and it's one of the most measured and copied violins in the world.

----------


## Glassweb

ANY mandolin that isn't set up properly will require plenty of struggle... and from my experience VERY few mandolins of any sort are set up properly. i've played many Loars that i thought were unplayable... all reasons relating to setup. so i think it's nonsense all this talk about having to play it a certain way to get the tone. any fine mandolin should respond equally well to a light or aggressive attack. come pay me a visit... i'll show you how a Loar can sound and play when it's properly rigged.

----------


## Loudloar

I never kept count but I've played a few dozen. They all have that signature sound. Some are clearly better than others, but proper set-up and playing-in can make a huge difference. 

No disrespect to those with different opinions, but I believe you can't fully appreciate a Loar until it's taught you what it's capable of. When I got mine I had to re-learn my approach to playing. I was moving up from a good hand made F5. But I discovered I could successfully pull off things on the Loar that would have fallen flat on my previous mando. Of course, now days there are some very fine quality mandos available, and there is not such a huge gap in quality between the top new instruments and a Loar, as there was when I was getting started. 

I'll share a related story. When I had first gotten my Loar I was at a Bluegrass festival and got a first row seat to watch Bill Monroe's set. He broke a string on the first song. I had my mando with me, so I walked to the side of the stage and handed it to one of the BG Boys. Big Mon played it for the rest of the set. That was a thrill. The next day Bill was scheduled to do a mandolin workshop. I showed up early and so did Bill. It was just him and me. He started playing one of his modal tunes, probably something he had just made up, and I was struggling. Just then one of the BG Boys called him away, I think to get paid by the promoter. Bill handed me his mandolin and said he'd be right back. Not a soul was around. I put my Loar down and played Bill's. It had that awesome Bill Monroe tone, not that I could begin to sound like him. But it was a special moment to be able to play the holy grail of mandolins. 
Steve

----------


## Spencer

Only had the chance to play one, not really long enough to get used to it, but I thought it was really responsive and a really fine instrument.  What impressed me most was when I played it with all the other instruments, how clearly you could hear it through everything else.

On that same trip I got to play Pete Martin's Gilchrist and Nate Bray's old F-12.  Talk about 3 great but very different mandolins!

Somebody at Bean Blossom was playing a Loar one night in the early 70's.  Even though it was before I started playing the mandolin and hadn't paid all the much attention to them, this one really made an impression. The sound was absolutely amazing, I can still hear it - deep and powerful. 

Spencer

----------


## Tim W

I'll share a related story. When I had first gotten my Loar I was at a Bluegrass festival and got a first row seat to watch Bill Monroe's set. He broke a string on the first song. I had my mando with me, so I walked to the side of the stage and handed it to one of the BG Boys. Big Mon played it for the rest of the set. That was a thrill. The next day Bill was scheduled to do a mandolin workshop. I showed up early and so did Bill. It was just him and me. He started playing one of his modal tunes, probably something he had just made up, and I was struggling. Just then one of the BG Boys called him away, I think to get paid by the promoter. Bill handed me his mandolin and said he'd be right back. Not a soul was around. I put my Loar down and played Bill's. It had that awesome Bill Monroe tone, not that I could begin to sound like him. But it was a special moment to be able to play the holy grail of mandolins. 
Steve[/QUOTE]


That's a wonderful story and a cherished moment you'll never forget. That's the same way I got to play Reischmans so many times; just being around and lucky enough to be a reciever of John's kindness and trust.

----------


## F5G WIZ

I got to play Brian Aldridge's Loar last night at a pickin party, what a beautiful instrument.  Has really been kept in great condition.  He said it layed in a closet for 50 years.  Got to play Frank's last year, it sounds great but it's not in pristine condition anymore to say the least!  Played one other a few years back that belonged to a local friend.  All were amazing instruments!  Just imagining all the different hands that had held these instruments is amazing.

----------


## danb

I've had the pleasure to try a handful of them from the overwhelmingly gracious owners. They are a treat, and can really tickle parts of your musical self you didn't know you had. As another commenter said- you can produce tone with much less effort on the really fine instruments, and that seems to be a common trait of the Loars I have had the fortune to encounter.

----------


## foolonhill

I have a very old copy of Webster's Dictionary, a big fat book about 8 inches thick that weighs about 40 pounds.  Guess who is the acoustic consultant to the dictionary?

Lloyd Loar.  His name is listed in the credits in the first few pages.

----------


## Elliot Luber

It's one of the items on my bucket list. :-)

----------


## LateBloomer

Darrin, 
You did a fine job playing that Loar!  So nice to hear the richness of Brian's instrument.
Leigh Ann

----------


## F5G WIZ

Thanks, I should have taken the opportunity to play it a little more but I didnt want to hog it.  Not to mention having a 200-250 G mandolin in my hands.

----------


## barney 59

The first mandolin that I ever "played" was Frank Wakefields who I met when I was a teenager. It went something like--" It's called a "mandolin" and this is how it works.".... I didn't know or care what a Loar was. I then went out and bought a '27 Gibson A-0 for $150 and my first lessons were with  Bob Artis who had a '23 Loar that he let me play some. So the 1st and 3rd mandolins that I ever saw or played were Loars. Bob Artis played with Mac Martin at the time and Mac would bring his Loar to a Wednesday night open jam at Walsh's Bar in Pittsburgh and I got to play that one --So I guess 3.

----------


## Mike Bunting

What ever happened to Bob Artis? Back in the 70's I bought his book on the history of bluegrass.
Played Wakefield's Loar back in 64.

----------


## barney 59

Mac Martin has been doing an annual trip to California and I asked him about Bob Artis. Bob still has a band that plays around the Western Pa. area. Still has his Loar. 
That book went out of print for a long time because of some kind of litigation --someone sued because Bob mentioned that they had been a bad drunk.....Bob was a really good start for me ---he is a good solid player and knew enough about bluegrass,well,.. to fill a book!

----------


## Vidshooter

I played one once in Mandolin Bros in 1985. It was very nice.
Interestingly enough, I also played an F5 Flatiron that was brand new on the wall. It was just as good.  Wish I'd bought it.

----------


## Amandalyn

I was at IBMA one year and met David McLaughlin, he had his Loar and said- here, play it. I was so nervous that I might scratch or drop it , I just played a few notes and gave it back.  I can remember it sounded real good. He told me it had a varnish top and said the finish was real thin, as he put his finger nail to it!  I was surprised at his easy- going manner about the Loar. On the other hand, I hosted a show with Alan Bibey, and before the performance we were talking and I asked if I could look at his Loar, he said no, he doesn't let anyone touch it. Can't say I don't blame him!

----------


## Rex Hart

Only one I have played was a 23' Loar of Jimmy Orchard's here in Missouri. It made my day....seems it may have had a neck repair in years past. It had that good old wood smell ! (You know what I mean...)

----------


## goldtopper

We had this same thread going about 4 years ago. When I said I hadn't, a gentleman who frequents this forum and is in my area offered to have me over and play his. What a guy that Avanti! Very neat experience.

My favorite sounding Loar has to be Ron Thomason's. I think it's 2/26/23. He has tone to spare.

----------


## Pete Hicks

I have played many Loars over the years, and I liked all of them.. Some sounded better to me than others, but they all had that sound.  I have also played many fine copies that were just as nice.

----------


## Scotti Adams

> I was at IBMA one year and met David McLaughlin, he had his Loar and said- here, play it. I was so nervous that I might scratch or drop it , I just played a few notes and gave it back.  I can remember it sounded real good. He told me it had a varnish top and said the finish was real thin, as he put his finger nail to it!  I was surprised at his easy- going manner about the Loar. On the other hand, I hosted a show with Alan Bibey, and before the performance we were talking and I asked if I could look at his Loar, he said no, he doesn't let anyone touch it. Can't say I don't blame him!


Thats odd what you mentioned about Alan..Ive always known him to be very gracious with his Loar.

----------


## AlanN

:Mandosmiley:

----------


## hank

On the special Loars mentioned that easily produced tone and seemed to help the player grow musically how were they set up so far as fret size, action, etc.?  Those that played more than one were they set up differently or is there some common thread of fretboard geometry that seemed to work well or was it simply the responsiveness of the sound chamber?

----------


## F5G WIZ

Me And Brian's Loar this past saturday.

----------


## Pete Heady

At Augusta Heritage Center last summer I was sitting next to 
David McLaughlin as he was juggling a few things. I offered to hold his mandolin not noticing it was a Loar. He handed it to me without a second thought. I started noodling and the mandolin responded with some serious mojo, I asked if it was a Loar he told me it was and told me to play it as long as I liked. what a thrill. Thanks David !

----------


## Willie Poole

F-5 Gee Whiz...Brian  had two Loars at one time, I played his first one at a festival in Gettysburg and it was nice, he also brought it to my house one day when he was returning home from making some trades with other owners...I like his Loar and it was a dream to play also...He don`t mind letting someone play it as long as they seem to know what they are holding and know how to play reasonably well, he`s a good guy for sure.....Willie

----------


## Ron Thomason

Mr. Simmers...you are refering to a Loar being out of tune, was it Ron`s of Dry Branch Fire Squad...His stays out of tune.

     This vicious, mean, rather arrogant post not only makes me mad, but should make others who love mandolins and mandolin music as I do take notice not only for its ignorance but also its destructive intent.  It's hard to say if this is a dig at my mandolin or at me.  In this present era when most professional mandolin players rely on "String deals", endorsements and the good will and support of those who are glad that mandolins are a part of the music scene, statements like these have little place.  
     I have always let folks who have requested to do so play my mandolin.  I have let many respected professionals record with it.  And I have always gotten a great pleasure out of seeing the joy that it brings to many who like mandolin music to get to play it.  Sometimes I have been afraid to hand it to someone that I didn't know, but I have never regretted it.  Some folks who have played it are obviously novices (who generally still really smile when they just hear the tone), and some are quite accomplished professionals.  None has ever handed it back and said anything about the tuning.  It is a small wonder that an owner of a fine (possibly vintage instrument) might have great reservations about handing his instrument to someone else to play when one of the possible outcomes is this kind of disrespect and venal negativism.
      Friends have sent me posts for years from Mandolin Cafe and I have always enjoyed them.  It is fun to see so many people write about things that I enjoy myself.  I have loved mandolins and mandolin music since I was a child.  The thrill of hearing Bill Bolick, Pee Wee Lambert, and Bill Monroe are some of my favorite memories from when I was just five or six.  Now that I am 65 I can say without qualification that that thrill has never left me.  And it makes me smile when I read a post that someone writes about being nervous or happy to play (theirs or someone else's mandolin).
     I would never show disrespect to the music that I am lucky enough to get to play by not taking time to tune.  I always give that my utmost effort out of respect for the audiences that we play for, myself, and for the instrument that I considered myself mightily blessed to own.  There have been times that I have been so flumonxed that I couldn't concentrate on tuning, though.  I remember when the Clinch Mt. Boys were about to play for President Nixon, I was scared to death and that wonderful gentleman, George Shuffler, took my F-12 and tuned it without saying a word.  I still have varying degress of stage fright to this day, and there are times when because of that or because of "having to conduct business with promoters, etc." that Brian Aldridge will take all my instruments and tune them.  I believe this has happened over the years because very nice people understand how I feel about being "in tune."
     Of course, that phrase "in tune" has a rather questionable meaning when dealing with individuals who love tone and attack and interpretation.  Once when Big Mon had grabbed me back stage and said, "Let's go out there and show them what this tune is all about."  (I it was "Virginia Darlin'", which he had just written.) We tuned for about 30 seconds, and looked up said, "That's right where they'll [I]feel[I] it."  He didn't have to finish that one; I knew he meant that for the audience to "feel" our playing was more important than what they "heard."
     I have been very lucky to have gotten to make my living playing the mandolin for almost 50 years.  I have represented the U.S. abroad through the USIA, NCTA, and the NEA--all at different times.  One of our albums was the first selected by the library of Congress to be sent to public libraries all over the world as "indicative of American folk music."  I used my own money to start the Bluegrass Scholarships which we at Grey Fox have given now for over a quarter of a century.  And I started and still present a festival in CO for the sole purpose of supporting our community clinic.  These are things that not many folks get to be lucky enough to do as a result of playing a mandolin.  And am thankful.  Those who have been to my workshops (I believe) would profess that what I try to promote more than anything is a LOVE of the instrument.  
     I have that love myself.  I hope this explains why I resent a post like this with all that makes me a man.  Ron Thomason

----------


## AlanN

Hi Ron,

I won't comment on the over-arching thrust of your retort (clearly spoken from the heart), but I will say thanks for sharing some of those personal stories, particularly the Bill Monroe on stage remembrance. Marvelous.

----------


## Spruce

> Mr. Simmers...you are refering to a Loar being out of tune, was it Ron`s of Dry Branch Fire Squad...His stays out of tune.
> 
>      This vicious, mean, rather arrogant post not only makes me mad, but should make others who love mandolins and mandolin music as I do take notice not only for its ignorance but also its destructive intent.  It's hard to say if this is a dig at my mandolin or at me.  In this present era when most professional mandolin players rely on "String deals", endorsements and the good will and support of those who are glad that mandolins are a part of the music scene, statements like these have little place.  
>      I have always let folks who have requested to do so play my mandolin.  I have let many respected professionals record with it.  And I have always gotten a great pleasure out of seeing the joy that it brings to many who like mandolin music to get to play it.  Sometimes I have been afraid to hand it to someone that I didn't know, but I have never regretted it.  Some folks who have played it are obviously novices (who generally still really smile when they just hear the tone), and some are quite accomplished professionals.  None has ever handed it back and said anything about the tuning.  It is a small wonder that an owner of a fine (possibly vintage instrument) might have great reservations about handing his instrument to someone else to play when one of the possible outcomes is this kind of disrespect and venal negativism.
>       Friends have sent me posts for years from Mandolin Cafe and I have always enjoyed them.  It is fun to see so many people write about things that I enjoy myself.  I have loved mandolins and mandolin music since I was a child.  The thrill of hearing Bill Bolick, Pee Wee Lambert, and Bill Monroe are some of my favorite memories from when I was just five or six.  Now that I am 65 I can say without qualification that that thrill has never left me.  And it makes me smile when I read a post that someone writes about being nervous or happy to play (theirs or someone else's mandolin).
>      I would never show disrespect to the music that I am lucky enough to get to play by not taking time to tune.  I always give that my utmost effort out of respect for the audiences that we play for, myself, and for the instrument that I considered myself mightily blessed to own.  There have been times that I have been so flumonxed that I couldn't concentrate on tuning, though.  I remember when the Clinch Mt. Boys were about to play for President Nixon, I was scared to death and that wonderful gentleman, George Shuffler, took my F-12 and tuned it without saying a word.  I still have varying degress of stage fright to this day, and there are times when because of that or because of "having to conduct business with promoters, etc." that Brian Aldridge will take all my instruments and tune them.  I believe this has happened over the years because very nice people understand how I feel about being "in tune."
>      Of course, that phrase "in tune" has a rather questionable meaning when dealing with individuals who love tone and attack and interpretation.  Once when Big Mon had grabbed me back stage and said, "Let's go out there and show them what this tune is all about."  (I it was "Virginia Darlin'", which he had just written.) We tuned for about 30 seconds, and looked up said, "That's right where they'll [I]feel[I] it."  He didn't have to finish that one; I knew he meant that for the audience to "feel" our playing was more important than what they "heard."
>      I have been very lucky to have gotten to make my living playing the mandolin for almost 50 years.  I have represented the U.S. abroad through the USIA, NCTA, and the NEA--all at different times.  One of our albums was the first selected by the library of Congress to be sent to public libraries all over the world as "indicative of American folk music."  I used my own money to start the Bluegrass Scholarships which we at Grey Fox have given now for over a quarter of a century.  And I started and still present a festival in CO for the sole purpose of supporting our community clinic.  These are things that not many folks get to be lucky enough to do as a result of playing a mandolin.  And am thankful.  Those who have been to my workshops (I believe) would profess that what I try to promote more than anything is a LOVE of the instrument.  
>      I have that love myself.  I hope this explains why I resent a post like this with all that makes me a man.  Ron Thomason


Best 1st post in Cafe history...    :Wink:

----------


## sgarrity

I'm just floored that the front man for one of my favorite bands is posting on the cafe.  Mr. Thomason sure does understand the ancient tones and that comes through in his mandolin pickin' as well as his singin'.  I hope you come back and post more and that it's on a happier subject next time!

----------


## sidewinder

I'm a big fan of Dry Branch and Mr. Thomason, never heard any tuning issues. Danny Roberts has honored me by letting me play his Loar twice. The first time was last year, and like most folks would be, I was pretty timid. Then about a month ago in Waldo he let me play it back stage. This time he told me to 'play it', and I did this time. I can't imagine a better mandolin. The tone and complete balance really caught my attention. The tone is impeccable accross the spectrum. Danny has added a slight radius and jumbo frets that really made it play like a dream. The great news for me was he told me about the TMS Gibsons out in Arizona. I do believe Mr. Harvey and the builders at Gibson are doing some great work. My TMS can't quite stand up to Danny's Loar, but you can sure tell it's a close cousin. I owe Danny big time for sharing his mandolin and his knowledge with me. I got to play one of the best, and he told me where to buy one I would be happy with.

----------


## fatt-dad

I saw Dry Branch Fire Squad at the Birchmier last Saturday night. They were the front band for the Seldom Scene.  Fully enjoyed the mandolin playin' and it was in tune.  You guys sounded just fine. . .

On the matter of playing a Loar.  I've played one.  I friend in town handed it to me and I was all kind of excited only to realize it had 7 strings.  I mean, don't you know when you have a broken string on your Loar?  Oh well, it was a Virzi Loar and it did have an interesting tone.  I liked it!

f-d

----------


## F5G WIZ

Hey Ron, nice to see you post, even if it was under bad circumstances.  Obviously you have stayed in the background and "trolled" the message board for a while.  Please don't let one negative comment keep you from coming back.  I am a big fan of your performances, I love the stories you tell between the songs.  We have spoken at festivals before, my old supervisor chainsaw carved your eagle in Ohio.  I still have his email address for the pictures you said you took of it.  Take care, thanks for posting and hopefully will get to see you again this year.  PS got to spend a few hours with Brian a couple weekends ago.  Great guy and very generous with his time and his Loar.

Darrin Tissandier

----------


## Scotti Adams

> Hi Ron,
> 
> I won't comment on the over-arching thrust of your retort (clearly spoken from the heart), but I will say thanks for sharing some of those personal stories, particularly the Bill Monroe on stage remembrance. Marvelous.


I agree and welcome aboard Ron. I hope you can join us again under better circumstances.

----------


## Tom C

I think Ron should have his own "thoughts" section here on the Cafe. Besides his great playing, singing and stage presence, I love hearing his stories.

----------


## Cullowheekid

I've been able to pick two. One a July 9 and the other a 24 Fern. Both great instruments. Ron, I love your music and you inspire me everytime I hear you. I particularly like the tone of your Loar and the way you play it. Eric

----------


## Ron Thomason

This is what I had meant to say when I got distracted by "Willie's" offensive post.

     This thread has had some of the most interesting observations that I have ever read.  There are several which come near to my own thinking about "trying" and "evaluating" a mandolin.  Some have specifically postulated what I believe to be a "truth", and one which can sometimes be obscured by the nature of the original question seeking to find "how many had.....played a Loar."
     I would first say that there are many reasons to play a mandolin, but chief among them is not to see how they sound.  (I am speaking here of very high quality and vintage instruments and concentrating mostly on F-5 Loars which are both.)  Playing an instrument allows one to evaluate things that relate to Design, Mechanics, Feel, Condition, and so on.  Even those things can be hard to determine if there are impediments to the proper conditions for evaluating them; such as, poor string quality, having no access to a good pick, nervousness and/or pressure, or having one item (such as a bridge or nut) that is in such bad condition as to make other things difficult or impossible to evaluate.
     However, in my experience I have found that playing any very good mandolin including vintage ones (and Loars in particular, for reasons that I'll suggest later) is about the worst way to "hear" them in a way that enables one to accurately evaluate their "sound."  (By "sound" I hope that I am using that as an intuitive term for anyone who would be reading this, but in general I am referring to tone, volume, presence, register, and specifically "that sound" that has come to be associated with great mandolins and Loars in particular.
     Let me say that I have played a mess of them and have never found a bad sounding one.  But then I have never tried to evaluate the sound of any that I have played while playing them.  Every one that I have ever played I had heard first, generally by hearing it played by its owner who almost always was a person very experienced with that particular instrument.
     I would suggest that the 2nd best way to evaluate the "sound" of a good instrment would be in this manner.  Loars project.  They do not "go backwards."  I have never encountered any other instruments that are harder to "hear" when you're playing them than F-5 Loars, although every Gilchrist and Red Diamond that I've been around comes so close in those qualities that even a good gun-fighter would not want to have to live on the difference.
     Many on this site have noticed and mentioned these qualities.  Others have noted that having someone very familiar with the instrument is necessary for an accurate evaluation.  I believe this is also true.  There are many excellent mandolins which enable players to self-actualize and express the music that they want to play.  Loars, in my opinion, are not particularly good for that.  They tend to form their players.  The instruments are so unique and have such enduring quality that they almost define those who play them.  Many on this site have noticed this characteristic as well, though they have expressed it differently saying things like (to paraphrase) "when I played Bill's, I didn't sound like Bill; I sounded like me."  That's what they do.  They take away a lot of things that one might imagine oneself playing and deliver such exquisit tone and register which is (literally) felt down deep in the gut of the player that he or she is sort of "driven" towards those sounds.
     The most pleasure I have ever gotten out of my own mandolin is when other folks play it for me.  I am very fortunate to be in a band with one of my all-time favorite players, Brian Aldridge.  When he plays my mandolin it almost always distracts me.  I love to hear it.  And I particularly love it because it sounds like Brian.  He has said the same with regards to the times that I have played his mandolin.  He's a lot funnier than I, though, and will usually say something like "Man, I love the sound you get when you play my mandolin but it still just sounds like you."
     Whenever anyone hands me a mandolin to play, I always assume that they are doing it so they can hear the mandolin--not so I can.
     It would make sense that the best way to evaluate one then might be to record yourself playing it.  But, alas, I've found that that doesn't work either.  There are too many anomalies involved in the "electronics" of recording to get a good feel for any high quality instrument.  The best way I've found to "evaluate" the "sound" of an F-5 Loar is to pluck it in its original case.  Those cases are loose enough so as not to inhibit the vibrations of the wood.  (More modern cases, mercifully, don't have this drawback and, therefore, don't work for letting one hear the true tone.)  If I were to try to get a feel for the sound of an F-5 Loar that I had not heard played by either an expert or someone who was very, very familiar with the instrument, I would try to replicate the conditions that one of those original cases presented.
     Another point that has been touched upon that I believe to be true is that Loars and vintage instruments in general are certainly not for everyone.  In fact, I believe the opposite to be true.  It would not make sense for someone who wants to hear him or herself all the time (this can be tested by how well one likes things like monitors) while they play to have an instrument for which one of the main characteristics is to impede this.  Also a person who wants to "explore new sounds", express himself in "new" ways, and so forth has little need for a sound that has become so well-defined as to be the goal of the best instrument makers of the day.
     There is another cogent point which needs to be addressed before giving an F-5 Loar a "bad evaluation."  What would be your opinion if you did not know it was a Loar?  If you did not know its value?  If your expectations were not so high?  If you knew that you could acquire the instrument within your "comfortable" means?  These are questions which must be answered honestly in the evaluation of any instrument.  There are many things which give value to Loars which are neither sound nor playability related:  rarity, original condition, verifiability of authenticity, availibility of original case and pick guard and bridge, etc.  There is also the worry of having something that might be tempting to a theif or that might get damaged and lose its value instantly like an injured "expensive" race horse.  The plain fact is that I have never heard an F-5 Loar that was not exquisite in tone.  That is what "tone-tested meant to Lloyd Loar.  That is why he rejected so many.  That might even explain the exceptional quality of those that Gibson "released" soon after his departure from the company.
     But there are still compelling reasons to play one, and many of them have been mentioned in this thread.  I believe that there is an honor to be given the privilege of playing one whether as an owner or (possibly even more so) as a borrower.  I further believe that there are very few mandolin lovers who ever forget any single one that they have ever "gotten" to play.

     Thanks so much for the nice welcome and the kind words of folks on this site.  And thanks to the site for providing access to people who literally love mandolins.  Wow!!!  Ron Thomason

----------


## fatt-dad

That was nice to read!  Thanks for taking the time and writing from you heart and experience!

f-d

p.s., you do have a mean sounding mandolin.

----------


## Glassweb

beautiful Ron... thanks for expressing the Loar "thing" so perfectly...

----------


## goldtopper

After commenting on Ron's Loar's tone (or is it Ron's tone?) on 11/23, I feel slightly compelled to tell this story-

I met Ron at the Bluegrass Festival in Zimmerman, Mn many years ago. I was a bit starstuck that a guy of his incredible talent and brains would stop and shoot the breeze. I forgot to ask him the question I meant to ask, so I wrote Ron a few years later for some chord changes on the beautiful "Memories that Bless and Burn". That whole Gm-Cm-C thing was a bit confusing to me. Anyhow I also asked about his Loar and his amazing tone.
Ron replied with his usual kind words and ended the note with "The day I got that Loar, my life changed forever".
I hope this isn't a breach of some sort of confidence, but just wanted to say that Ron is the kind of guy I'd want for a neighbor- even if I would drive his property value down!

----------


## Brian Aldridge

Thanks for sharing that "Ron" story goldtopper. That is a very typical one. Last year after we had finshed our last set and CD sales at the Gettysburg festival, Ron had a couple reasons he needed to get headed out and on the road. He was engaged into conversation by a kindly octogenarian, and his kindness and long suffering toward her was very warming to my soul. Then, the icing on the cake was when three youngsters under the age of 10 sought him out as we were getting in the van to get his autograph on their programs. He spent all the time with them that they wanted making sure they got to ask all their questions, and know that they were important to him. I have known Ron for about 45 years now, and have played in his band over 10, and I already had the utmost respect for him as a person in every way possible, but witnessing his treatment of those kids when he was so wanting to hit the road, kicked everything up a notch or two. I am so proud of my association with him. I am a bit dismayed that his first post on the Mandolin Cafe Message Board was because someone said something incredibly outrageous about him, but, I hope he will take time to share his knowledge and experience with mandolin and music now and then. I am sure it will enrich the community.
  I have played over 50 Loars- I have actually lost count. I loved them all.

----------


## f5loar

I have no doubt Ron said the Loar changed his life.  Ron was coming off a 50's F12 as I recall and that would be life changing to go straight to a Loar that many years ago.
I can think of many whos lives were changed when they got a Loar.  Monroe was coming off a mid 30's F7 and we pretty much know how it changed his life.  Bobby Osborne was coming off a late 40's F12 to his '26 Fern and that was life changing to him. Ralph Rinzler came off a 50's F5 to his '26 Fern and it got him too. I was coming off an early 60's F5 and it's still changing my life every day I pick it up.

----------


## Dobe

Played Caleb Roberts (Open Road)at mid-winter the year he bought it ; needed a ton of work (probably shouldn't have even had it under tension) Pretty sucky !. After repairs years later, much better but didn't knock my socks off. Probably could learn to love it, but simply a great mando with a valuable signature in it. Not stellar !

----------


## BradKlein

Let me add one more voice of appreciation to Ron for his thoughtful posts.  (By the way, I'm not sure I can think of a time when it would be important enough for me to 'run down' the quality of someone else's instrument on a public forum like this...  but that's not why I'm posting.)




> Loars project.  They do not "go backwards."  I have never encountered any other instruments that are harder to "hear" when you're playing them than F-5 Loars...


I thought I'd add this personal observation.  I had a vivid reminder the other day, that ff-hole instruments are much more 'directional' than round hole, or flat tops.  When I play country and BG with friends, I play it on this 16" 1929 L-10, (a Loar design as surely as the F-5 and L-5).  

Truth is, I can barely hear it in a typical crowded jam session, but the other day when I traded with another player, I was amazed at how it cut through.  It reminded me that an L-5 / L-10 is a LOUD guitar in its own way, and secondarily, that I was pushing it harder than I need to, (especially considering my limited skills) not having an accurate impression of how it sounds to the folks sitting right across the circle.

----------


## Willie Poole

Hey folks...I have sent Ron a personal e mail explaining exactly what was meant by my posting "His Loar was always out of tune", so I apoligize to anyone that might have gotten upset about that comment, It wasn`t what I originally said, it was something that was said to me at a jam session a few years ago.... I remember hearing Ron`s Loar many years ago and I thought it was as good as any I have ever heard, I never did get to play it though and the things Brian says about Ron shows what a kind person he is...I only hope he understands my explanation.....Regarsd....Willie

----------


## hank

Wow, what a great guitar Brian.  S##t  that baby is beginning to stir my long subdued GAS that I thought had gone by the way side.

----------


## Fretbear

What a beautiful guitar.....

----------


## BradKlein

Well thanks. (I think most everyone appreciates hearing compliments about their guitar or mandolin) It's a fun instrument to play, and less expensive than an L-5 of that era both then and now. It was an response that Gibson could take quickly in response to the economic 'downturn' of 1929.  Take the Loar designs, simplify the binding and wood selection, paint 'em black.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Brad,

Have you seen the one Gruhn has in his personal collection?   An odd combination of 1925 serial, Loar binding, fingerboard and wood on a L-10 labeled black guitar with 1929 logo

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Great post Ron

----------


## re simmers

"Mr. Simmers...you are refering to a Loar being out of tune, was it Ron`s of Dry Branch Fire Squad...His stays out of tune........"

Ron,

I just read your reply.    No, I was not referring to your playing or your Loar.   Nice post for making that assumption. 

As a picker who was inspired to play mandolin by the Gordo Brothers at Indian Springs in about 1980 I never thought you were out of tune.   You whack a mandolin pretty good, but I never thoguht it was out.

Bob

----------


## goldtopper

> Thanks for sharing that "Ron" story goldtopper. That is a very typical one. Last year after we had finshed our last set and CD sales at the Gettysburg festival, Ron had a couple reasons he needed to get headed out and on the road. He was engaged into conversation by a kindly octogenarian, and his kindness and long suffering toward her was very warming to my soul. Then, the icing on the cake was when three youngsters under the age of 10 sought him out as we were getting in the van to get his autograph on their programs. He spent all the time with them that they wanted making sure they got to ask all their questions, and know that they were important to him. I have known Ron for about 45 years now, and have played in his band over 10, and I already had the utmost respect for him as a person in every way possible, but witnessing his treatment of those kids when he was so wanting to hit the road, kicked everything up a notch or two. I am so proud of my association with him. I am a bit dismayed that his first post on the Mandolin Cafe Message Board was because someone said something incredibly outrageous about him, but, I hope he will take time to share his knowledge and experience with mandolin and music now and then. I am sure it will enrich the community.
>   I have played over 50 Loars- I have actually lost count. I loved them all.


Well and thank you Brian, because _you_ were the one that set me straight on those chords!

----------


## BradKlein

Darryl, 

Thanks so much for posting that photo of Gruhn and his L-10.  I have not seen that guitar, although I had heard that there were examples that clearly started life as L-5s.  That must be one.  And I've heard that Gruhn is a big fan of Loar's original 16" guitar design, and I'm certainly with him there.

----------


## John Gass

Slightly off topic, but is Marty Stuart's mandolin that has JRC carved in his Loar? Either way, I think that mando has one of the most incredible tones of any that I have ever heard.

----------


## evanreilly

Marty's "JRC" mandolin is not his Loar.  He may still have a Loar; he did sell one a few years ago.

----------


## f5loar

I think Marty has the most incrediable tone I've ever heard out of a mandolin or guitar. 
The JRC mandolin is his early 70's Loar copy by Chris Warner and others.

----------


## Fretbear

20 questions for Marty and what happened to his mandolin...... 

http://www.cmt.com/news/20-questions...y-stuart.jhtml

----------


## Chris Rogers

Played a Loar last night for the first time, a 1924 owned by a local musician. It was a big deal for me, one best appreciated by all of you Cafe denizens, not so much by friends, co-workers, etc. In my hands, and to my ears, it had a very sweet and pure upper register, but a righteous woofy bark, almost like two, two instruments in one. That surprised me. In light of Ron's comments and my inexperience with instruments of this caliber, I'll just say it was a treat, and yes, it sounded better in the hands of it's owner with me at the receiving end.

----------


## Alex Orr

Played my first Loar on saturday.  I was having the extension on my Brentrup scooped and the gentleman who was doing the work mentioned that he bases his own builds on the measurements he has done on his own '24 Loar.  I was sort've stunned and resisted the urge to immediately ask, "Can I play it?  Please, please, please, please, please?!?!?!"  Anyway, after finishing up the work on my mando he just brought out the Loar and asked if I wanted to check it out.  Like others have mentioned, I was far too nervous to play my best (which is admittedly not that great to begin with) though after jamming with the gentleman for about thirty minutes on his Loar I can say that I'd at least started breathing better and the nervous sweats had stopped  :Smile: 

It was hard for me to feel like I got to really push the Loar.  I didn't bring a pick and the owner preferred large, thin triangular picks.  I'd love to have really gone at that thing with a thicker pick that could drive it a bit more, but I had no idea I would be playing a real Loar when I left my house that morning to have some simple work done on my own axe and thus didn't really think about bringing my own picks.  Honestly, I wasn't as blown away by the Loar as I expected to be.  Don't get me wrong, it was a terrific sounding mandolin, but it didn't reshape how I view everything else I've ever played.  The one thing that really struck me was how well it played up the neck.  All the trebles from the 10-15th fret sounded very crisp and direct, and they had an exceptionally good sustain and just seemed far more full sounding in that region of the fretboard than most mandolins I've played.  Frankly, the sound up the neck was the best I've ever heard. However, when playing below the 7th fret, I can probably say that I've played some Weber's that felt like they had more volume and punch.  The chop on the thing was excellent and I can honestly say, it really had "that sound" that I love from Monroe and many of the the older players.  I've often thought that my Brentrup's chop can be a bit uneven - it's very loud but also leans towards the mid-range tone-wise.  The Loar was just as loud but was very well balanced with much stronger trebles.  In terms of playability, it felt much better than mine, which might be due in part to my growing feeling that I simply prefer flat fingerboards as opposed to the radiused board on my Brentrup.  All in all, it was a lovely instrument, with some nice flame on the neck and a rare (for Loars) one-piece back.  The Virzi had been removed and the tuners were original.  Although it may seem a bit trivial, the tuners were quite smooth.  More than anything though I was just thrilled to be holding a piece of history and also flattered that the owner would let someone he'd only known for about half an hour play such a valuable instrument.   :Mandosmiley:

----------


## AlanN

To be out and about on a mandolin day and have no pick? Never know when you'll need one, always best to have a suitable pick handy for just those times.

----------


## mandobassman

I keep three different picks in a pick pouch on my key chain and 1 primary pick in my wallet.  You never know!

I have only played one Loar.  It was at Mandolin Brothers back in 1985.  I had played only oval hole A models up 'till then (about 9 years) and was shopping for my first F model.  A friend of mine went with me to Mandolin Bros. and the first F model mandolin I ever played in my life was a Loar.  Of course they didn't command the price they do now but, even then, they were terribly expensive compared to others.  The salesman told me a list of working pros who had owned it and it was selling for $8000.  That was four times more than I paid for my first car!!!  Anyway I don't remember a thing about its sound.  It was the first F model I ever played and I had nothing to compare it with.

----------


## Alex Orr

> To be out and about on a mandolin day and have no pick?


I know.  Bad Alex  :Frown: 

I'm down to one Wegen pick and I always keep it with my mandolin, except when I'm taking it to a shop where I expect to leave it for an indefinite period of time.  If I'd known he'd scoop the thing in thirty minutes on the spot, I'd probably have just taken the thing over with the pick still in the strings

----------


## jmalmsteen

I was able to play two Loars at the Elderly booth at IBMA. It was a huge honor. I had a new appreciation for my Gibson F5 after that and was happy to learn how nice the new Gibsons sound. Thank you Elderly!

----------


## mandolirius

> I know.  Bad Alex 
> 
> I'm down to one Wegen pick and I always keep it with my mandolin, except when I'm taking it to a shop where I expect to leave it for an indefinite period of time.  If I'd known he'd scoop the thing in thirty minutes on the spot, I'd probably have just taken the thing over with the pick still in the strings


I keep a sparepick in my wallet. Ya never know.

----------


## D C Blood

Me playing the Loar at Mandolin Brothers, but a long way from being the only one...

----------


## Hendrik Ahrend

Played 9 Loars and 4 Ferns over the last 30 years. All different, but all wonderful, balanced sounding; and all had a very strong e-string, never harsh. John Reischman's a bit warmer, Kevin Lynch's definitely brighter. I loved them all. One of Mike Marshal's excuses for buying his was the esthetics. And you know what, I believe he's got a point there.

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

Check this out, Lloyd Loar seekers: http://www.mandolincentral.com/lloar.html

It ought to be interesting to listen to it. I find it a very interesting to listen to such projects. 

I dearly love to listen to the Tone Poems/Tone Poets projects as they show a wonderful variety of music, played wonderfully on very interesting sounding instruments (I think the first one had something to do with pushing vintage flattop guitar and mandolin prices, but that´s another topic). 

I also very much appreciated the Mando Tasting effort by Ken Cartwright! It drives your friends nuts but it´s worth the listening. 

If you are familiar with Tony Williamson you may remember "All for Naught" which is a recording with vintage instruments. It captures the essence of the instruments even though the recording does not sound super good (compared to the Tone Poems/Tone Poets for example). But take a listen to "At McBanes Mill"! Here the acoustic sound is preserved wonderfully. The tunes are not so familliar sounding and not super earcatchers but the recording sounds great. 

I have high expectancies with regards to the new recording project. 

Watch out and whoever gets the first record, please post a review.

----------


## Mando Matthew

John Reischman let me play a few chomps on his Loar many moons ago when he was on tour with the Jaybirds in the Netherlands... It blew me away!

----------


## jtsc

OK - I want to bring this thread back due to a story that I think is downright crazy.  It's about the Gibson F5 the fine folks at Carter Vintage call the "*Drunk Loar*" (sn: 73671 per the label, which was mistakenly listed as 73641 on their site and Siminoff site).  This Loar signed instrument dating to June 13, '23 clearly has stared in to the eyes of mandolin death and said _"not today my mandolin maker! For I've far more to play!!!"_  Here's what I've learned... 

This Loar has had some serious surgery.  The back of it appears to have a repair with a chunk of wood which doesn't line w/the grain of the rest of it and there are repaired rim cracks and more on the back.  *But it is the story I want to know more about:*  The story is that it was owned by someone named Dana Moore who was a rather rough character - a biker and a hard drinker. He carried it around in a backpack (no idea what decade this was). At some point he may have thrown the mandolin at somebody, or possibly it was damaged in a wreck - likely involving alcohol. Consequently, the folks at Carter lovingly refer to it as the "drunk Loar." It was acquired from Mr. Moore by someone at McCabe's in Santa Monica, who did the structural repair work. It was then sold to a collector in southern California who thought it would be a good idea to have Gibson refinish it. I think he sent it to Gibson's acoustic division in Bozeman, MT. (I can't imagine that the Nashville repair shop would have lacquered it.) In any case, Gibson put the thick lacquer finish on it.  

Does anyone on the cafe know anything more about it's hard livin' history or any more on this story?  

It's currently for sale at Carter Vintage and I found a nice video of Andy Leftwich playing it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6vBi-mnB68.   Sounds real nice in his hands (though perhaps a bit less loud due to thick refinish).

----------


## Treblemaker

I've played several.

On occasion I play bass for a pal of mine: Bob Blanchard (a fantastic mando picker and first chair bassist in the Oakland, CA Symphony Orchestra.)

It also brings a smile to my face that we play these dumpy little coffee house gigs for practically no money.
I play an old plywood '54 Kay Bass.  Bob plays his Lloyd Loar.  His instrument is generally worth more than the venues he plays in.

----------


## sgarrity

> ..... Loars project.  They do not "go backwards."  I have never encountered any other instruments that are harder to "hear" when you're playing them than F-5 Loars, although every Gilchrist and Red Diamond that I've been around comes so close in those qualities that even a good gun-fighter would not want to have to live on the difference.


Truer words have never been spoken concerning an exceptional F5 mandolin.  Since the beginning of this thread I got to spend some quality time with Byron Berline and his Loar.  We were sitting knee to knee in his shop and I played a few tunes on it and thought, "Man, that is one nice mandolin.  Not overly loud but so much tone."  Then I handed it Byron and he began to play.......WOW was it a different experience.  Obviously Byron is a MUCH better picker than I am but to experience the projection of a good Loar up close and personal like that was a truly magical educational experience.  That projection is one of the things that separates traditional from modern mandolins IMHO.

----------


## pops1

I have been lucky enough to play one, got to sit and play it as long as I wanted. While it sounded good the setup was not as good as it could have been and it hadn't been played in a while. Would have been nice to take it home and wake it up some more. Never figured I would get to play a piece of history.

----------


## Treblemaker

"That projection is one of the things that separates traditional from modern mandolins IMHO."

In my un-edumacated opinion this might be because the wood in these instruments is 90+ years old - not just the build specs.

----------


## Timbofood

Treblemaker, I have said the same thing many times before. Where all the "new" builds are trying to replicate the "old" sound right off the bat, I must wonder just what these amazing new pieces will sound like in time. I wish I could live another fifty years just to hear them!

----------


## f5loar

Beware of playing your first Loar and it's not a Loar!  Seriously, there are owners of fake Loars who honestly believe they own a real Loar.  Either they thought they got the deal of the century and never bothered to get it "authenticated" as they didn't want anyone to know they had it or they know it's not real but pass it off as real.  I think there is a thread here about those fake Loars (and Ferns).  I know I've meet several who thought they owned the real deal.  Depending on who they were would determine if I would break the news to them it's not real.  I have a policy not to argue with crazy people.  Even with the easy verification through the internet with photos of real ones, many miss the little subtle details the fakes always have.  Checking the serial no. list won't get it either as many of the fakes used unknown serial nos. that fit in the missing numbers.   Some use a real serial no. making it even more confusing.  The hardest fakes to determine are those 20's F4s converted to F5s with longer necks and new tops but use the F4 inlays along with period correct maple back and sides.

----------

