# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  The Loar 700 history

## Kevin Stevens

I just picked up a The Loar mandolin from Ebay. The sellers said is part of an estate. There was no sticker inside and the seller couldn't tell me what model it is. When I study the pictures on the Loar website at the different models it looks most like the 700. It is F style, the headstock has the fern design, no pickguard. The original owner seemed to be somewhat of a collector, the estate has sold quite a few banjos and other instruments. The binding looks most like the 700. It doesn't look like a brand new one in the following ways: The tuners have the same design, but on the website they look gold in color, these look more like nickel. The tailpiece is a plain silver color, it does not have The Loar engraved in it like the new ones. I had to clean the tail piece up a bit, it was kind of slightly dull, some polish my teacher had cleaned it right up.

The thing sounds great, especially after a new set of strings and a little adjustment to the bridge. It came with a nice case as well. I had my teacher take a look at it and he thought it looked and sounded great. The price was less than half of a new one.

Does anyone have an older model 700 or is familiar with what they looked like when they first came out? Any info would be appreciated. I am totally happy with it no matter what, everything seems solid and it really sounds awesome, while also being easier to play than my Kentucky 140 ( which was a great little mandolin to start on).

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Barry Smith

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## Fstpicker

I know a friend on another forum who has a 700 prototype. I let him know about this thread. Perhaps he can weigh in here.

Jeff

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## kydave

Thanks for pointing me this way, Jeff.  The 700 I have is a "prototype" in the sense that is was a one off experiment using an Adirondack top.  But the 700 series was already in full production when it was made. It has serial number and logo/tailpiece, everything you'd expect to see on a regular model and, if you didn't know its history, it would look like any other 700, since the Adi is pretty tight grained and under a sunburst.

Now the one-of-two Loar A style prototypes we have IS different.  No logo, no serial number, and a different shape headstock.

The one Spudo has sounds like it could be one of two things:
A prototype; OR
A production model which someone replaced the gold tone hardware with nickel and removed the label.

I'd like to see detailed photos and if you sent detailed photos to TML, they could tell you.  

Spudo, what part of the country did you get the mando from?  I saw/played the unmarked protos of the 600, but not the 700.  I'll be happy to drop Greg & Travis a line asking them, though.

Dave

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## Kevin Stevens

Thanks Dave! The mandolin came from Los Angeles.

 I will take some detailed pictures and either post them on this thread or send them to you via PM. To start, here is the ebay listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEWNX%3AIT

Thanks!

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## Paul Hostetter

I own the original 700 prototype, below. It looks like a 600. 



Also in this photo is the very first really good A prototype. I also played a number of the earlier A prototypes, and I managed to place one of them that had issues that made it unsellable or unshowable. The rest are just out there somewhere. 

I played a whole bunch of the early 600s as that model got ready for market, no two were quite alike, in terms of details. I managed to snag the very first 700 because I liked it so much, and have played a number of the followups in that line, prototypes and production models. 

The most obvious difference between the 700s and the 600s is the tone bars (or lack of them) inside. That's what I'd check before details such as the headstock decoration. 

There are often a flurry of prototypes before a model is launched, and the hardware varies, as the folks in the shop are usually focusing on refining details other than hardware. These often go to trade shows and then go off into the world from there.

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## Paul Hostetter

> To start, here is the ebay listing:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEWNX%3AIT


Link doesnt work. What was the item #?

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## Kevin Stevens

120712138717

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## Kevin Stevens

Now I am having trouble linking to it. I did find it by doing an advanced search on completed items. "The Loar Mandolin"

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## Kevin Stevens

I think I can feel tone bars in there.

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## dcoventry

Nurse, get me a mirror...stat!

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## Fstpicker

Here you go:

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## Fstpicker



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## Paul Hostetter

Does it have tone bars?

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## Kevin Stevens

Yes, I believe it does. I can feel them by reaching a finger in through the bottom f holes. So perhaps this is a 600?

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## Kevin Stevens

Thanks Fstpicker!

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## kydave

Since we've got a show & tell going:

This is my Adirondack top 700.  Greg & Travis showed me this during one of my visits to TML and I drooled all over it.  Eventually it became mine through some serious kindness on the part of the folks there.





This is one of two original A style carved Loar protos that evolved into the 400.  I snagged this for a Christmas present to MaryAnn.





And just for something different, this is one of two experimental "antiquing/distressed" versions of the Kentucky KM-750 that I got from Saga back when this model was fresh back from introduction at NAMM.

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## kydave

P.S. Paul - GREAT group photo!  I think we've got one of those "rest are just out there somewhere" early carved A styles.

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## Paul Hostetter

> Yes, I believe it does. I can feel them by reaching a finger in through the bottom f holes. So perhaps this is a 600?


It would seem to be so. Really weird tailpiece cover, never saw that one. You can't tell a book by its cover. Like my prototype is cosmetically a 600 with the top carved way different. Gibson was famous in the old Kalamazoo days for its prototypes, which often came in batches of 3 and would confound the experts forevermore. 




> I think we've got one of those "rest are just out there somewhere" early carved A styles.


Yep. Nothing on the headstock? Definite prototype. I'll be up to my ears in guitar prototypes next. The mandolin lines are settling down finally.

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## Kevin Stevens

I have e-mailed The Loar company the link to this thread to see if they would help identify it, hopefully they will respond. I am also taking it to a luthier in Madison Wi today to have him look at it and do a good setup on it. I am starting to think that the original owner came into a prototype/sample somehow. Oh well, the 600 is a good mando as well, and I do like the sound of it. It looks like it spent most of its time in the case, no marks or anything of any kind, so with a setup refresh and a good clean up I will be happy with it.  Knowing it is a very rare and mysterious model just adds to the charm for me.

Paul thanks for your expertise and time on this, if I was closer to Santa Cruz I would bring it there and let you look at it and set it up for me.

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## dcoventry

Paul is a whole helluva lot of fun to talk to about this stuff; helpful, too.

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## Kevin Stevens

TML Responded!! The plot really thickens! They think it might be one of the 2 original The Loar mandos made by a famous Japanese builder! Here is a copy of the e-mail:


From: info@axlmusiclink.com [mailto:info@axlmusiclink.com] On Behalf Of The Music Link Inquiries
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:52 AM
To: Kevin
Subject: Re: Need Help Identifying this The Loar mandolin model

Hi Kevin,

Thank you for your interest in The Loar. Without inspecting the mandolin it is impossible to give a definitive answer, but here is some information that may help out:

We had the very first two Loar pieces made by a famous Japanese builder, Sumi. Based on the headstock logo and tuners, this looks like one of the Sumi made mandolins.

The tailpiece is different however - making this either 
A) a Sumi made mando with a replacement tailpiece
B) a counterfeit of unknown origin

Without seeing the instrument in person, this is impossible to confirm. If the instrument is a Sumi made Loar, the current value would be around $3500 USD.

Best Regards

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## kydave

"Nothing on the headstock? Definite prototype."

There wasn't any doubt about that. I was sitting in Travis' office at The Music Link and he brought out the two and showed me, telling me they obviously weren't going to be sold retail and offered me my choice, since I wanted to get a Christmas present for MaryAnn.

All three of the mandolins I pictured above came to me in person at the offices of The Music Link or Saga.  So I don't have any questions about the provenance.  It gets more difficult when a seller, even with the best of intentions, has something they got second hand, put it on Ebay with the story they have, then the new buyer has to track down the real "Rest of the Story"...

That's what's great about forums like this!

p.s. Jeff: in post # 11, are those the pics from the ebay ad where Spudo first saw the mando in question?

p.p.s. Spudo: Great and interesting mando you got, however the story turns out. Congrats!

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## Kevin Stevens

Thanks Dave! Jeff can verify, but those are the exact pictures from the Ebay listing.

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## Fstpicker

> Thanks Dave! Jeff can verify, but those are the exact pictures from the Ebay listing.


Absolutely! I was able to "steal" those original Ebay pictures and save them, and then post them here. Thought it would help to sweetin' the plot.

Man, if your mandolin is indeed one of the Sumi mandos, you REALLY have a rare bird and the first one that any of us have ever heard about...especially that the first two were made in Japan. Anyone could have changed out the tailpiece cover, so that could be a non-issue here.

Theis story gets more interesting all the time...

Jeff

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## Kevin Stevens

Yes, what a roller coaster this has been. I studied the pictures so much thinking it was a 700. I thought once it arrived I would be able to see the sticker inside, but no sticker, so I got worried. Then the different tuners. Then finding the tone bars. 

Then getting the response from TML. Now I don't even want to take the thing out of the case. I am still taking it to the luthier today, but probably won't leave it there for any adjustments until I find out exactly what I have here. I have asked TML how to go about getting it verified and documented, might mean a plane flight.

This thing is really solid and looks high quality. I am not sure someone would waste their time counterfeiting a $1200 instrument. If it were a Gibson I could see it. Anyway, I'll proceed with getting the answer and document it.

So I am back to playing my beginner Kentucky for the time being.

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## G. Fisher

Spudo I think what you may have is one of very few "The Loar" mandolins built by Bruce Weber. He and Greg Rich orginally made some mandolins with "the Loar" name.  The headstock shape and scroll are very similair to that of Weber mandolins.

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## G. Fisher

Here's some info on the Weber built "The Loar" mandolins.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/ar...hp/t-9880.html


When you have the mandolin checked out have him look to see if it's signed inside on the top.

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## Kevin Stevens

Where would the signature be? I can't see anything inside. Would it be on the inside of the back of the mandolin?

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## G. Fisher

You would need a mirror to look at the top by the tone bars.

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

Wow this is really interesting. Had no idea that 'The Loar' line has been in the plans for so long, and that both Weber and Sumi had produced some prototypes. Let us know what you find out Spudo.

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## MONami

>>_The thing sounds great, especially after a new set of strings and a little adjustment to the bridge. It came with a nice case as well. I had my teacher take a look at it and he thought it looked and sounded great._ 

I don't get your frown. If you like it and it is sounding good, just play it. It doesn't matter what it is...
It isn't like being disappointed that the mando you bought wasn't an actual _Lloyd Loar_.
Just play play play.

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## Kevin Stevens

MONami- I definitely don't have a frown. I just would like to know the history of what I have, it part of the fun of it for me.

The trip to the luthier didn't go as well as I had hoped. He didn't seem to want to even look at it or listen to my story, and I didn't stay long. He was too busy due to the fact he had 2 people in  the store. Told me it was a perfectly good mandolin that didn't need any further set up. He was more of a guitar and violin person, and I could tell he didn't much care for Pac-Rim instruments. 

He did tell me that the instrument was x-braced and didn't have tone bars. I was under the impression that The Loar 400's and 700's didn't have either. I mentioned that to him and he was very insistent that all mandolins have one or the other or else the top would collapse. Not having time to discuss it any further with someone who didn't seem to want to assist me anyway, I left. He just lost a customer when I am ready to buy a Weber or Collings or other brands he stocked. 

Not sure if he is accurate about the X Bracing , but he did take it into the back to check it, I assume with a mirror or something.

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

I think finding out about the origins of your instruments, whatever it may be, can be fun; just like learning the history about a particular piece of music can enhance one's enjoyment of it.  

It is correct that both Loar 400 and 700 have no tone bars or bracing of any kind, at least in the production models.  The topic has been discussed before, and it is generally agreed by experts that unlike a flat top guitar, the arched mandolin top really doesn't need the braces to be structurally sound. The bars are there more for tonal reason, to enhance or dampen certain frequency range(s) in the tone of the mandolin.   

Given the lukewarm response of your luthier, I think you may want to do some of the inspection yourself.  It's actually quite easy, and I found this old thread on the cafe that sorta explains how.  Just be careful and I think you'll be fine: 

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ide-a-mandolin

I'm pretty excited for you. Let us know what you find out

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## G. Fisher

It does have tonebars if it's x-braced.

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## kydave

X braced Loar F-style mandolin?

He did you a favor by not looking. He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

Pardon... Did he actually look or just conclude it was X braced by looking at the headstock?  If he actually looked and saw an X, I apologize.  Of course, then it wouldn't be a Loar F-style mandolin... ;-)

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## Paul Hostetter

> Had no idea...that both Weber and Sumi had produced some prototypes.


The Weber instruments weren't made as prototypes, I'm pretty certain they predated Music Link's mandolin effort. "The Loar" is Greg Rich's trademark. Sumi did produce prototypes, I played at least one of them. I'm thinking Greg Fisher might be right about this mandolin. It does not look Shanghainese.




> Anyone could have changed out the tailpiece cover, so that could be a non-issue here.


Agreed.




> ...it is generally agreed by experts that unlike a flat top guitar, the arched mandolin top really doesn't need the braces to be structurally sound.


Usually. I don't think it's hard and fast. The 700 is not a 600 top without tonebarsit's graduated differently to do the work. 

And there are the old Gibson oval-hole A's which had a little transverse brace. 



Hard to believe they did much, but when they detach, you really see the top slump.




> The bars are there more for tonal reason, to enhance or dampen certain frequency range(s) in the tone of the mandolin.


Agreed.




> It does have tonebars if it's x-braced.


Correct, but most people think of this layout as tone bars: 

And this layout as x-bracing: 

In both cases they function more as tone bars, as opposed to braces. I wish the terminology was better, but we're stuck with it.

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## Brent Hutto

You could start calling them "X tone bars" and see if it catches on.

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## G. Fisher

Being that Weber originally used x-bracing in it's mandolins for many years. That would also lead me to believe that it's one of the  Weber build "The Loar" mandolins.

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## Paul Hostetter

Greg Rich just had a look and concurs. (And he would know!)

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## ColdBeerGoCubs

So Weber made prototypes for The Loar? 

This is a pretty interesting thread.

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## Brent Hutto

Dude, you've got a Weber!

It would be interesting to compare it to an F-style Weber and see if it sounds more like a Weber or a like a Shanghai LM-700...

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## G. Fisher

> So Weber made prototypes for The Loar? 
> 
> This is a pretty interesting thread.


Weber was contracted to build the original "The Loar" mandolins.

I posted this link earlier and it gives some info on the Weber built "The Loar" mandos.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/ar...hp/t-9880.html

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## Kevin Stevens

Well, I just used a mirror and light and can definitely see the X shape in there. Paul, you said that Greg Rich looked at the pictures? Wasn't he working with Bruce Weber on those prototypes? 
TML has offered to look at it if I ship it to them, or they said I could contact Elderly or Gruehn for appraisals. I really would like to find out the value, not because I am interested in selling, but simply to have documentation for insurance reasons. At the very least I am sure it would be hard to replace!

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## Paul Hostetter

> So Weber made prototypes for The Loar?


No, Weber made eight mandolins on order for Greg Rich in 1997—years before the Music Link initiated its "The Loar" line. 

Greg now works for Music Link and the current ones made in Shanghai are an entirely different event. The Webers were not prototypes at all. They made eight special mandolins for Greg on order.

Greg was running Gibson's custom shop in the era when Weber was making Gibson mandolins in Montana. It's all in Vern Brekke's old post, but again, Gibson 'set Weber free' at about the same time Greg also parted company with Gibson. The connections are long and deep.

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## Kevin Stevens

> Greg Rich just had a look and concurs. (And he would know!)


Did you mean he looked at the pictures and thinks it is the Weber produced model?

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## Brent Hutto

Boy I just thought the guitar business was a small world. These mandolin folks all seem so close they must send each other Christmas cards. Especially in Montana!

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## Paul Hostetter

Yep, Greg looked right at those photos and we talked about them on the phone. There are a number of things that would have narrowed it to Weber, not the least of which is Greg's having ordered them in the first place. Again it's all here.

Other things: scroll detail, varnish, the precise nature of the headstock inlays (which Greg did himself and supplied), the X-bracin...er, tonebars in X-formation. etc. Not a Sumi, not made in China either. I thank Greg Fisher for getting this thread on track.

And comparing an X-braced mandolin to either an unbraced 700 or a more normally executed tone bar iteration like the 600 or even an F-5 would not be tremendously informative. It would be fun, but there are too many fundamental differences in structural details. 

In any case, Spudo, good score! Find out what good transitional Montana F-5s from Flatiron/Gibson/Weber are going for and that's a fair basis for an insurance value. I'd up that simply because it's rareone of eight ever made.

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## Fstpicker

Oh my!! What an interesting thread!!!!!!!!! Keeps getting better and better. Who would have guessed it to be a Weber. No way I would have in a million years. So very cool!! 

Here's a quote from a post by VernBrekke (Sound to Earth) on the MC in Feb. 2005:



> VernBrekkeFeb-16-2005, 12:44pm
> When we were first starting out as Sound To Earth, we built eight custom mandolins for a customer. The instruments were built to his specifications. The customer provided the peghead veneers with "The Loar" logo and a fern design already completed. We built and finished the rest of the instrument. It was the first and last time that we have built an instrument without a "Weber" logo on the peghead. 
> 
> We believe that the customer had built some of these instruments before the instruments we that we were contracted to build and may have had others built after the eight that we finished. As a consequence, the construction details of these instruments may vary from instrument to instrument. For the record, none of the eight that we built were black-faced or oval holes.
> 
> I hope that this will clarify our role in the history of these instruments. 
> 
> Vern Brekke
> Sound To Earth, Ltd.


Jeff

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## Brent Hutto

Aren't some of Weber's current range X-braced? I guess the obvious "Music Link The Loar" for comparison would be the LM-300. IIRC that model has "X tone bars" like the prototype pictured.

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## Kevin Stevens

I have sent a PM to Vern to see if he can take a look at the pics and weigh in.

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## Big Joe

I would expect this to be a Weber "Loar" as well.  The photos seem to indicate that in so many ways.  It is very typical Weber from that era and the X bracing would pretty well seal that concept.  Greg would easily be able to tell by the photos as well.  The guys at TML are always a real joy to work with and are as helpful as any group of people can be.  Greg is the real deal and would know the origin from the photo with no doubt.  Again, it does not appear to be Sumi or Shanghai origin but would fit perfectly in the Weber mold from that era.  It should be a very good mandolin and would certainly be collectible.  Congratulations.

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## strings777

...and the truss rod cover resembles Weber's cover also.

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## G. Fisher

> ...and the truss rod cover resembles Weber's cover also.


Yes it does.

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## Mary Weber

Yup, It's one of mine.  We did 8 instruments for Greg from July to November of 99.  Pictured here is my personal "Loar" which is #8 with tone bars, (the way most of them were built). I still have two of the inlaid veneers that Greg did for them as originally 10 were going to be made. Be glad to answer any more questions that my CRS will allow.
~Bruce
*Greg, long time- if you're following this 'all the best, bud'.

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## Fstpicker

There you go....from the man himself! 

Love it!!

Jeff

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## Brent Hutto

So I think what we're saying here, Spudo, is *you got yourself a good 'un!*

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

.. or as they say - You done gooooood!

Congrats!

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## Kevin Stevens

Thanks Bruce! Do you remember signing the inside of these? Greg F mentioned I might find a signature in there somewhere but so far  haven't been able to see anything using my old dental mirror.

My compliments on the sound and beauty of this mandolin!

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## tkdboyd

I guess there is a new generation of finding a "Loar" under someone's bed-doesn't quite rank up the with a Loyd, but a Bruce is nothing to sneeze at!

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## Nonprophet

Great story, just goes to show you that you never know what you might find on ebay!


NP

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

Now the hunt for the Sumi 'the Loar' is in full swing....

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## Mary Weber

> Thanks Bruce! Do you remember signing the inside of these? Greg F mentioned I might find a signature in there somewhere but so far  haven't been able to see anything using my old dental mirror.
> 
> My compliments on the sound and beauty of this mandolin!


We are glad you like it- and that's the main thing. Bruce said that he doesn't remember actually signing any tops (as almost all will have labels), but he has written short notes in a handful of instruments- so the answer is most likely, 'no'. I didn't have any idea he had done this, but I do know he put a 'sign' on the Gibson mandos that he made totally himself, way back when- however I will never tell what it was :  )

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## Kevin Stevens

Hi Mary, I have one more question for Bruce and then I'll stop! In studying the picture you posted the only difference I can see is in the tail piece. His looks gold colored, mine is silver. They appear to be the same shape. I am just trying to figure out if the one I have is original, or if  maybe there were different tail pieces used. 

Thanks!

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## D tide

I was seriously considering buying this mandolin on ebay because of the low bides (dues to the fact it wasn't listed properly) I was scared due to what I figured was a wrong tail piece and the owner saying no label inside when I messaged him. o well should have keep on it, congrats on your find

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## Big Joe

Good to see Bruce chime in.  Bruce is a very fine man and gifted luthier.  He is building some very fine instruments.  I think that solves the 'mystery' of the Loar  :Smile:  .

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## Kevin Stevens

> I was seriously considering buying this mandolin on ebay because of the low bides (dues to the fact it wasn't listed properly) I was scared due to what I figured was a wrong tail piece and the owner saying no label inside when I messaged him. o well should have keep on it, congrats on your find


I too e-mailed the seller asking about the sticker. They told me the same thing. I also noticed that the tailpiece was different from what I expected.

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## Desert Rose

Regarding the Sumi Loar. While there were two made Musiclink only took delivery of ONE. The mandolin was a Sumi S5 in all respects with only the Loar logo added. When the second mandolin was never requested, Sumi removed the peghead overlay and replaced it with the original Sumi. It was sold here in Japan.

You cant mistake it for a Weber Loar or Shanghai Loar in any way

Scott

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## hank

I think I know what Paul Harvey might have said.

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## Mary Weber

> Hi Mary, I have one more question for Bruce and then I'll stop! In studying the picture you posted the only difference I can see is in the tail piece. His looks gold colored, mine is silver. They appear to be the same shape. I am just trying to figure out if the one I have is original, or if  maybe there were different tail pieces used. 
> 
> Thanks!


The plating on ours is pretty worn (although it shows up pretty gold looking in the photo) and it may be on yours. We noticed this the other day and thought this was most likely the case- if the tuners are gold, the TP was originally too. I am not sure if we actually had our new one-piece TP out quite yet at this time, but even so it wouldn't have fit with a 'Loar'. We used the standard 2 piece TP's in the beginning, too, and hadn't gotten to engraving them b4 the TP revolution began in earnest. Greg is a master engraver, maybe he had plans to engrave the covers at some point but that is speculation.

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## garyedelman

Fascinating thread.  Not sure this is on target, but about a year
ago I decided it was time to seriously learn the mandolin and quit
borrowing friends.  I was in the Bay Area, and found 2 that seemed
well priced, and in very good shape.  One was what I figured was
a Loar 700 prototype.  It was owned/being sold by a Stanford
prof (biology/medicine or something like that-highly regarded scientist-
even had his own lab).  The owner seemed to confirm
that it was a Loar 700 prototype. It was listed on craigslist.  
I have no idea what happened to it, as I fell in love with and
bought the other mandolin.

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