# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  How to play Lead Mandolin?

## ally

Hello,  I'm pretty much a newbie when it comes to playing a musical instrument.  After my husband began playing acoustic guitar and singing, i purchased a mandolin just over a year ago, and proceeded to learn to play it (self-taught).  I'm not going too badly - after a very rough start - and now can play a few relatively simple solo melodies etc, and i can now read very basic music.  My husband would like me to play 'lead mandolin' behind him.  I can play an intro (using the last line of the verse or chorus, as a play-in) and i can play a Lead Break, but - -  i'm having trouble working out what to play what seems to be called 'fill' notes.  I've been told that as long as i play notes of the scale of the key the song is in, and as long as i play the root note of each chord change at the right time, it should be easy.  I'm blaming the fact that i'm blonde, but it ain't easy!   Can someone help me please, and explain how i should work out exactly what notes to play so that it enhances and blends with the melody, rather than souding like totally foreign notes??  Thank you so much for any help you may be able to give me - Ally from Oz.

----------


## Jim Broyles

Welcome, Ally. What you want to achieve is only done by practice. If you can play intros, and lead breaks it is just a matter of doing it more and becoming more adept at hearing the changes so you can play the right notes over the chords and working on decreasing the "foreign" notes and increasing the "native" :Smile:  notes during your fills. You  are already  better at it than you think you are. Try this: repeat the last few notes of the vocal melody line as a fill.

----------


## Earl Gamage

Hello Ally: one way is to do just like you do on the intros, or in other words, repeat phrases of whatever the singer does.   Listen to country music from the 50's- 60's-70's.  I'm sure you will get a lot of answers on this one.

Have fun :Smile:

----------


## ally

Hello Jim, Thank you for your welcoming message!  And thank you for the tips - it looks like i'm kinda on the right track.   At first i was just playing the melody quietly behind my husband's singing - we play mainly Aussie Country Music, but trying all sorts really - but one of the other country musos told me not to do that 'cos apparently it tends to put the singer off??  I find it fairly easy to play the melody, but it seems as if i really have to work on playing the right notes over the chords as you suggest.  I just tried out your suggestion re repeating the last few notes of the vocal melody line as fill - and it works a treat!   Thank you!

----------


## ally

Hello Earl,  Thank you for your helpful reply - it has certainly clarified to me what i can do to create 'fill' notes.  Yep, i'm havin fun learning to play this mando!  

By the way, are 'fill' notes known by any other name?

----------


## journeybear

Fill notes are called that because they are used to fill gaps in the music being produced. Your mate who advised you not to play the melody while your husband sings it is spot on - very distracting, not only for he singer, but the audience. But playing _around_ the singing, without calling attention away from it, is a goal to shoot for. Even with that, though, less is more. You want to embellish, not distract. Best to concentrate on solos until you get comfortable enough with stringing notes together to be able to fit in a few here and there around the singing. Keep in mind, though, that a lot of times that empty space is useful in its own right, giving the singer room to breathe, and overdoing fill can make the whole seem too busy or cluttered. Balance, give and take - these are important considerations.

As to solos - quoting the melody is a good way to start and especially end a solo - that way, you establish yourself, improvise and express yourself for a while, then bring it back together and set up the singer to continue. An example of this is Willie Nelson - All Of Me. He and Mickey Raphael (harmonica) double a riff adapted from the end of the melody to use as an intro and again to bring it back at the end of his solo. He starts the solo with the melody, improvises a bit, then he and Mickey play that riff to end it. He actually sticks close to the melody longer than needed to illustrate my point, but that's just fine with me. Really sweet, actually; great tone. Note also his lead-in riff and the little bit he uses to tie in at the end. Sweet!



You needn't concern yourself with hitting the root note of a chord; in fact there are those who contend you should avoid them, too pedestrian or something. Joni Mitchell was big on doing that. Each chord has at least three notes anyway. One thing you can do is observe the way chord changes suggest melody notes. Say you're playing a three chord song in C, about to change to F. You could play an E note just before the change, then an F note with the change - anticipation and resolution. That kind of stuff. Then there's passing notes ...  :Whistling: 

Remember, there's more than one way to skin a cat. More than 1000, really.  :Mandosmiley: 

BTW, I have spent a lot of time playing with a fellow named Phil - Phil the Tip Bucket. Too often he's a silent partner.  :Wink:

----------


## ally

Hi Journeybear,  Thank you for your excellent and informative reply!  Hey, i love Willie Nelson's 'All of Me' - i played the video and can see what you mean.  it's excellent the way he plays it in and then plays it out with some of the melody.  Really works well!   I reckon i can just about do that, and i'm determined to one day get the hang of the 'fill' notes too!   Your suggestions will help me immensely.  That bit about playing an E note just before the chord changes to an F - that really makes sense!  

I can see i'll have to give up the ironing, the vacuuming, the dishes  . . .   in order to practice more!!

Again, thank you!

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

Hi Ally - I'm working on exactly the same thing as you.After 46 years of playing almost nothing but instrumentals on Banjo,i'm concentrating more on 'back-up' Mandolin,an art in itself. Jim Broyles has it covered in what he says. The business of playing the last few notes of the vocal part,is a typical Banjoey thing that i've been doing for ever (it seems !) & it works just as well for Mandolin.
   You're very fortunate to have a regular person to practice with,your husband,& again,as Jim says,you're better than you think you are,you just need to get it onto the Mandolin. I've found that playing along with I'net Bluegrass radio (ie. The Bluegrass Mix / Front Porch Bluegrass) has helped me a lot,who cares if you make a few mistakes as you pick along ? - good luck & enjoy it,
                                                                                                                                                                     Ivan :Chicken:

----------


## journeybear

> I can see i'll have to give up the ironing, the vacuuming, the dishes  . . .   in order to practice more!!


Glad you've got your priorities straight.  :Wink:  Attitude is half the battle!

----------


## ally

Many thanks, Ivan for your reply.  Aah, the banjo is a beautiful instrument.  If i ever manage to master this mandolin, i'd love to have a go at a banjo.   I've been picking along with some of our CDs, trying to put in fill notes and playing the lead breaks etc.  When i think back a few months, i guess i am getting better at it, but i tend to be a bit impatient - i want to play everything right now!   But it don't work that way, hey.  Like i said in an earlier post, we play a lot of Aussie Country, but i'm also picking some bluegrass as well, cos i love the sound of it.   My husband backs me on his acoustic guitar, and it don't sound too bad.  Main thing is we're havin fun tryin!  All the best with your mando.

----------


## roscoestring

Maybe pull up, on youtube, an Aussie country player and play along. Listen to the notes and work at doing the same. It will eventually become second nature.

. . .and continue to have fun at it.

----------


## D C Blood

Ally...You've already got the most important element of success, someone to pick with...makes it more fun and much ore of an incentive to learn.  Listen to albums...Listen to bluegrass more than other stuff, because in bluegrass they take the art of backup very seriously.  (it's more than just mindless chopping)...Then from bluegrass you can import the licks and ideas into almost any other form of music.  Best wishes, keep with it...

----------


## JeffD

> Ally...You've already got the most important element of success, someone to pick with...makes it more fun and much more of an incentive to learn. ...


Very true, especially in what you are working on. Practicing backup alone, or to a CD saps me of inspiration. Practicing the same things with a live musician, getting all the smiles, and musical interaction - priceless in its helpfullness.

----------


## 250sc

I think you'll find that working with the major scale and understanding major and minor penatonic scales will go a long way in moving you towards your goal quickly.

An harmonized major scale (double stops) works really well for leading to the next section of a song and the ability to play the same penatonic scale through most of the chords of most songs will be an eye opener. Then add some 'blue' notes to the penatonic and try to create some melodies.

Personally, I'm trying to move away from what I'm suggesting but it is a fast way to begin to learn how to solo.

----------


## Perry

Ally

As mentioned above the major pentatonic scale will get you a long way on being able to hit the right notes on most diatonic progressions. Diatonic progression refers to songs whose chords all belong to the key. Country music is by and large very diatonic in nature. So the major pentatonic scale gives you a great tool to start with.

If some of your Aussie country get's a little bluesy here's a YouTube lesson on a simple
blues box pattern that you can get a lot of mileage out of:

http://www.youtube.com/user/mcmule20.../4/6VPlos0ECTs

Finally I found the section on the "K" position in this book to be very helpful when playing double stop fills. Double stop fills can be a very effective tool for playing behind the singer's melody without stepping on him. Think of double stops as little partial chords that can be combined into little moving "lines"

http://www.halleonard.com/product/vi...57&menuid=519&

----------


## 300win

This is something that you will just learn over time as you progress. You will begin to "feel" the music and anticipate what to do without really thinking about it. Main thing as was said above, practise, practise, practise.

----------


## Denny Gies

Like most have said, learn the melody, learn the melody.  When it is second nature you will be able to stretch out and play off the melody and develop fills.  Listen to players you like and try to copy them.  Have fun.

----------


## JeffD

> on a simple
> blues box pattern that you can get a lot of mileage out of:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/mcmule20.../4/6VPlos0ECTs


I heard that and thought someone is steeling my stuff! I figured out something very much like that and have been doing it for years and didn't realize it could be so easily explained. I visualize kind of a different moveable pattern with different "essential" notes and different "color" notes, but its the same thing really. Same fingers in the same places. Its just how you think about it.

----------


## ally

Hi Roscoestring,  Thank you for your reply and helpful suggestion.   And yes, i will continue to have fun with it!  (Mind you, last year when i was first trying to figure what i then referred to as the 'mongrel mandolin' out, i wasn't havin' fun.)  But now it's all finally starting to come together, and with all the excellent tips i've gained from the helpful members of this forum, it's fun, fun, fun all the way!  And yes, i really love my cute little A-style F-Hole mandolin!   It's not a Gibson or a Kentucky, but an inexpensive second-hand Samick but it sounds great! - Again, thank you

----------


## ally

Hi DC Blood, Thank you for your reply, and yes i agree - having someone to pick with definitely makes it more fun (most of the time??) We've had our moments, especially when i get a bit frustrated that i cannot do anything remotely what the likes of our Aussie girl - Virginia Coad - an incredible mando player - can do.   But the more that I DO do, the more satisfaction i'm achieving, and the jam sessions with my husband are much more fun now. I watch bluegrass players on youtube a lot, and they are just soooo talented - what a great sound!

----------


## ally

Hi Jeff, Great to read your reply, but i had a little giggle to myself while reading it ----   '........getting all the smiles ........'   That didn't used to happen, believe me!   But as i mentioned in my reply to DC, it's good fun now.

----------


## ally

Hi 250sc,  Thank you for your reply.  I'm working on learning the scales, but so far i only know some of the major scales - C G D A E B F.   I still have to learn the others, the names of which are a bit confusing at this stage, names like minor penatonic, harmonized major scale (double stops).  I know that i really have to knuckle down and concentrate on learning them . . .   I probably sound dumb, but what is a 'double stop'.   Gosh, i have a lot to learn, but thanks to forum members like you, i'm gonna get there!

----------


## ally

Hi Perry, Thank you so much for your informative reply.   I'll check out the youtube links you sent me - i think one of the links sounds like it might answer my previous question on 'what are double stops?'    I refer to the few scales that i do know as 'major' scales.   Is that the same as 'major pentatonic scales'?   I don't have time at the moment to click on the links - you should see my house - i really do have to go do some tidying up! (i'm trying to give up vacuuming, ironing etc, but there comes a time when a little bit must be done).

----------


## ally

Hello 300win,  Thank you for your reply, and yes, i really do think i am beginning to progress.   When i think back to August last year, i was just barely playing.   Our cancer support group asked me (and my husband) to play at what they call their 'Pink Party' (raises funds for breast cancer research).   I very shakily got up - first time in public - in front of 60 people, and played ONE little song - Little Brown Jug - and managed to get thru it!  It does me good to think back a year, cos it proves to me that with lots of practise, i have progressed.    Yep, still have to practice more though - shame about that vacuuming i gotta do today!

----------


## ally

Thank you Denny for your encouraging reply.  It's been great that so many of you experienced mando players are coming to my aid with helpful tips and encouragement.

----------


## Perry

> I refer to the few scales that i do know as 'major' scales.   Is that the same as 'major pentatonic scales'?


A major pentatonic scale is five notes (penta=five) It is the same as a major scale *except* two notes are left out; the fourth note and the seventh note. So in C major leave out the F (4th) and the B (7th). When you leave out those two particular notes you make it safer and more fail proof; less chance of hitting clashing notes. It's a great tool for starting out.

So a C major pentatonic scale are these five notes: C, D, E, G, A.

Good luck!

----------


## journeybear

Ally  - I know vacuuming sucks - and having to do vacuuming sucks - but as long as you keep your priorities straight, and do more practicing than housework, you'll be fine!  :Wink: 

I don't know if you've ever seen "The Glenn Miller Story," starring Jimmy Stewart in the title role, June Allyson as his wife, and Harry Morgan as his best friend ... but June keeps after him for years to work up her favorite song, "Little Brown Jug," and he continually rebuffs her, at one point giving her a little bit of crockery with the inscription, "Ha ha ha you and me, this is the only little brown jug you'll get from me." Toward the end of the movie he surprises her with the band playing his arrangement of the song. I know, AWWW!!! Typical Hollywood claptrap, may or not be true, but charming nonetheless.

I relate this anecdote so you know you are in good company with that song. Mighty fine company.  :Wink:

----------


## ally

Hi again Perry,  Thank you for your reply.  Aha- so now i know what a pentatonic scale is!   It's only 5 notes instead of the normal 7!
So, does that mean if i was playing 'fill' for a song being sung and played in the key of C, i would only use those 5 notes for 'fill' ??

This is gettin' complicated - i reckon i'll need Good Luck !!

----------


## ally

Hi JourneyBear,  Good to hear fom you again.  Yes, i did see the Glenn Miller Story, years ago - it was awesome!   Little Brown Jug was song that got me going.   We were at the Bundy Aussie Muster (an Aussie Bush Balladeer show at Bundaberg in Queensland) when a young drummer - Michael Coad - got up from his drums, picked up a mando and proceeded to play a medley featuring Little Brown Jug.  Whenever i'd seen mando players before, everything seemed too difficult for me to even think about playing.  But i watched his fingers closely and i reckoned that i would be able to play it.   It is such a simple little song, but sounds so effective on the mandolin.  So, i set about learning to play it, and i was so pleased that i could actually play something, i went on to learn other simple melodies.   I've actually put Little Brown Jug into a medley along with - Knees up Mother Brown, and What will we do with the Drunken Sailor - all played in key of D.   I have other medleys now too, as well as learning some instrumentals - Winter Winds is a classic Australian country music instrumental (although it is sung too).   You may not have heard of some of our Aussie country icons, but it was written by a fellow called 'Shorty Ranger' - a mate of Slim Dusty's.   We had a wonderful guitarist called Barry Thornton (now deceased) who played it as an instrumental.   It has kind of become the Australian Bush Ballad Anthem, and i'm learning to play it!  It will sound awesome on the mando when i finally get it up to speed.  My husband backs me on rhythm guitar with all my medleys and instrumentals, and that's why i'm asking about the 'fill' notes, so i can play more backing for him.
Again, thank you for your interest and your help.

----------


## Perry

> So, does that mean if i was playing 'fill' for a song being sung and played in the key of C, i would only use those 5 notes for 'fill' ??


Ally; yes that is correct in the key of C try playing that five note scale over any of the chords in the tune; you can't hit a bad note!

Again it's a starting point. The major pentatonic scale is like vanilla ice cream..nothing wrong with it, taste great but not too exciting. Once you get the feel of using the major pentatonic look at that blues box pattern video I posted above to get some blues notes in there too. Pentatonics are just one tool in the endless pursuit of learning how to improvise.

----------


## journeybear

I agree - the pentatonic scale is a good starting point, and something you may want to use even after you progress beyond it, but you will want to move on and progress from it. You'll see after a while, it's a little simplistic. Which doesn't mean it doesn't get used a lot; far from it, in fact. You'll hear it used endlessly in hip-hop, for instance, both major and minor. But getting comfortable with it will help your confidence and enable you to play solidly in jam situations, and being able to hang in with players who are better than you is a great way to learn from them and improve your technique.

----------


## CES

Ally,

Understand where you're coming from as a fellow beginner, and the first example to pop into my head of someone who's really got this thing figured out is Mike Bing, of the Bing Brothers from West Va, USA.  He plays some great OT and BG mando, and while his solos/kick-offs are spectacular, the thing that really impressed me was how kinetic his backup playing is, without being frenetic.  He plays the right combination of melody/harmony, double stops, chops/chords, and silence (which is the hardest one to master, I think).  I honestly haven't tried to youtube search him, but have had the good fortune of seeing him play twice within the last couple of years...may be worth a look-see, though the effortlessness with which he does all that may be a bit frustrating to you  :Smile:  .

BTW, welcome, and it sounds like you're off to a great start!

----------


## ally

Hi again DC Blood - didn't have time yesterday to check out your myspace.com/mixtcompany.  Your music is awesome!   And i love the kilt in the photos!  My husband is a McRae and real interested in anything Scottish.   Meanwhile, i'm getting my head around all the excellent advice i've received from the helpful members of this forum.   Thanx!!

----------


## ally

Hi Perry,  I just checked out the blues box pattern video in the key of A.  Mmmm . . .  think i'm startin to figure out what you've been tellin me!  It's all one BIG learning curve, hey.  Thank you for all your help

----------


## ally

Hello CES,  Thank you for your reply and welcome note.   I just found Mike and Tim Bing on youtube, playing Sally Johnson.   Awesome!  Oh, to be able to play like that!  Would have been great to see them live.   Yes, they make it all look soooo easy!   As my husband and i often say - 'wish we'd started to learn playin music when our brains and fingers were young!'  and we also say, 'Better late that never!'   I'm stoked at just how helpful the mandolin cafe forum members have been!

----------


## Ed Goist

What awesome information being posted here! Thanks to all...

Ally; thanks so much for starting this thread. Also, I know exactly what you mean, I started playing mandolin 5 months ago just after my 50th birthday...It really IS harder to teach an Old Dog new tricks...

----------


## ally

Hi Ed,  Good on you for starting to play mandolin!   Did you play anything else before?   There are not too many mandolin players here in Oz - but over there in the US it is a really popular instrument.  I'm so pleased that i settled on a mandolin, after originally thinking - at my husband's suggestion - that i play guitar.   I mean, as much as i love guitar, it seems that every man and his dog plays guitar, but over here in Oz at least (especially up here in Queensland), the mando is quite a novelty.  Many people ask me what it is?   It's been called a ukelele, a piccolo, a banjo ....  by people who have never seen a mando played.   The previous owner of my Samick fitted it with an electric guitar pickup, and plugged in, it has an absolutely awesome sound, especially as i'm now beginning to get the hang of the tremolo.
I'd love to hear how you are going with your mando, and wish you all the best with it.   Main thing is - no matter how frustrating it perhaps might seem right now, at the 5 month stage, stick with it!!   I'm pleased i started the thread, even though i thought other forum members might think i was just asking dumb questions.    They have all been so helpful to me - thank you all!

----------


## journeybear

There is at least one mandolin player over there who has been getting some notice here - Jimi Hocking. (Ed is mad that I beat him to mentioning him.) Guitar is his main instrument, but a couple of years ago he put out "Blue Mandolin," which is excellent, and won some awards. There is also Totally Gourdgeous, who use a lot of homemade instruments with gourds for bodies - definitely non-traditional.

Don't let the popularity of the mandolin among _us_ persuade you that the instrument is all that popular here. Maybe more so than there, but still ... we all get our fair share of "What is that, a ukulele?" questions. But it's interesting to hear you have dogs playing guitars over there. Seems there should be a market for that.  :Wink: 

I keep wondering - what is the time difference between us? I think it's fifteen hours later here, which may be off an hour due to daylight saving time. It's coming up to midnight here, eastern time, the night of August 31. Is it already September there?  :Confused:

----------


## ally

Hi Journey Bear,  It's 2pm Eastern Standard Time here at the moment and it's September 1.  I dunno, but i think the saying 'every man and his dog' might be uniquely australian??   Your message came in about 15 minutes ago, so i'll leave you to do the math!  (re the time difference)
I'm gonna check out Jimi Hocking on youtube.

----------


## Ed Goist

Hi Ally: Thank you very much for your interest...And there aren't too many mandolin players in NE Ohio either. Here's my musical autobiography: played self-taught guitar (electric & acoustic - not very well) from about 1973 to 1982. Stopped pretty much cold in 1982. Life happened (cars, houses, jobs, wives, kids, etc). Decided in my late 40s to start playing guitar again. Got my old, beloved Gibson guitar set-up, bought a Martin 000-15, and began playing guitar from tabs (suddenly good tabs could be found in 'the wink of an eye' on-line...this wasn't the case in the 70s!). 

In the midst of getting fully back into guitar last year, a couple of things happened that made me want to play mandolin: I started regularly watching Marty Stuart's TV show (during which he would regularly play killer mandolin), and I heard Eddie Vedder's song Rise. These two things, especially the Vedder song, made me decide to get a mandolin...That was in March, and I basically haven't put it down since.

Thanks for asking about my playing. It's coming along. I have found a good instructor, and I seem to be making some progress. However, the great thing is that I feel no real pressure to improve at break-neck speed. What happens, happens. Interestingly, I find that I'm much more likely to have plenty of playing time on the mandolin with this attitude...I think the lack of self-imposed pressure makes it EASIER for me to play for hours and hours. Also, I find my patience with myself as a player to be much better than when I was younger. If you're interested here are a couple of videos I've made (mostly to let folks know what my mandolins sound like):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyjoyPi8nfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34CQXQ9KaAU

Finally, I am likewise pleased that you started this a thread. It is one of my favorites, and one of the most informative I have encountered here on the Cafe.

Good luck with you playing and with your lead work. Thanks again for the thread!

----------


## journeybear

Well, just kidding about the dogs. It was too easy, couldn't resist.  :Wink: 

So, 14 hours earlier than me. That means you're _more_ than halfway around the world. Hmmm ... or nearly halfway, reckoned the other way ... oh drat, I had it all figured out for a moment!  :Disbelief: 

If you go to this thread you'll find links to Jimi Hocking's sites, including one where you can listen to all the songs on the album. Plus some (ahem!) excellent insightful commentary ...  :Whistling:

----------


## ally

Hi again Ed,  Just watched both of your youtube videos.  Hey, you're doin' alright!!   (Not bad for 5 months playing!)  But i guess your having played the guitar would help a little bit, even though it's an entirely different setup?  

Dunno which mando i like best though - they both sound good, but each has its own sound.  I believe my Samick SM-20E/TS is an American brand.  I dunno how old it is, but it does have a nice sound.  I played a Fender, and it sounded dull compared to my Samick, but i guess even within brands, depending on the timber etc. each mando will have its own special sound.  Mine sounds particularly good 'plugged in' - the electric guitar pickup is the trick there i think.

----------


## Gelsenbury

> However, the great thing is that I feel no real pressure to improve at break-neck speed. What happens, happens. Interestingly, I find that I'm much more likely to have plenty of playing time on the mandolin with this attitude...I think the lack of self-imposed pressure makes it EASIER for me to play for hours and hours.


I couldn't agree more. You need dedication in order to make progress, but if you push yourself too hard you'll not only tense up (bad for your playing) but also take the very fun out of it that made mandolin playing your hobby in the first place. I think it was Anthony Hanigan who said in one of his instructional pieces that it shouldn't be called practice, it should be called playing.

By the way, your playing is awesome. I'm still a beginner, but if you've been playing for 5 months I've been playing twice as long as you. And I don't sound like that. 

Finally, I agree that this is a nice thread. It's good to see so much useful advice for us newbies.

----------


## ally

> Hi Ally:  . . . .
> 
> Finally, I am likewise pleased that you started this a thread. It is one of my favorites, and one of the most informative I have encountered here on the Cafe.
> 
> Good luck with you playing and with your lead work. Thanks again for the thread!


G'day again to the very helpful members of this forum.  It's more than two years since I posted a message asking for tips re playing the mandolin.  I was stoked to received so many helpful replies - replies which have helped me big-time.  I'm now playing - along with my husband - on the main stage at some of the country music shows we attend here in Oz, and have also begun playing bass guitar as well.  We entertain the campers in a coastal caravan park for 3 months of the year, playing 6 nights a week.

Again, thank you so much to those of you who have helped me!!  Cheers - Ally :Smile:

----------

