# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Sorting out the Vinaccias

## Graham McDonald

I have been trawling back through posts from the past few years looking for reference to the late nineteenth century Vinaccias, as I am trying to get a more definitive picture of who was who from the 1880s onwards. I was interested to notice this thread which appeared a couple of days ago with a picture of the label clearly marked Guiseppe Vinaccia fu Gaetano with a date of 189*. From what I can work out 'fu' means 'was' or perhaps 'deceased' which I took as meaning that Guiseppe might be the son of Gaetano? Robert Lundberg gives Gaetano's active dates as 1887-1914, and he only knew of Guiseppe labels from 1914, but I seem to remember earlier ones that have been mentioned.

So as far as I can work out, there was 
Pasquale b.1806, d 1885
his three sons
Gennaro (1832-1908), Achille (1836-1920) & Federico (1839-1882)

Sometime after 1882 Gennaro and Achille started selling instruments under the Fratelli Vinaccia label. (although I did find an old post from Alex Timmermann suggesting that they were nephews of Pasquale, rather than sons?)

We have Gaetano building from 1887 until 1914, so we might expect that he was born within a few years of 1860, which would work well if he were the son of either Gennaro, Achille or Federico.

Then we have Guiseppe (fu Gaetano) from the 1890s and his relationship to the others and of course the question of who was running Fratelli Vinaccia after Gennaro and Achille, as there seems to have been instruments under that brand into the 1930s.

cheers

graham

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## Martin Jonas

Graham,

My Giuseppe Vinaccia also has the same label as the one posted in the other thread, and is dated 1898.  So, Giuseppe did definitely build in the 1890s.

Martin

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## brunello97

Graham, I don't know what Gennaro and Achille's relationships were to Pasquale, but on at least some of his labels he included 'e figli'.  If these were other guys then the family tree branches further.....

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I suppose you found this thread from 2004 in which I posted the same question.

My list from that thread (this is before I got as copy of the Sparks book):




> I have been trying to get that Sparks books for a few years now. It is very scarce. Supposedly it will be reprinted soon. I emailed Oxford but heard nothing. I will call.
> 
> In the meantime, I would like to establish some sort of chronology of the family. Here is what I have from various sources. These are dates of actual instruments or, in the case of Henley, working years:
> 
> Baines:
> Antonio 1772, 1773, 
> Gaetano 1744
> 
> Timmerman:
> ...


Then Bob A posted this:




> Vinaccia, Achille (1836-1920)
> Federico (1839-1884)
> Gaetano (1759-after 1831)
> Gaetano (c1900) - Described as the most significant luthier of the period (turn of the century Virtuoso Era in Italy). It was also mentioned that the family firm had split into two or more competing businesses by the turn of the cent).
> Gennaro (b. 1832)
> Giuseppe (c.1900)
> Pasquale (1806-c1885)

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## dave17120

Here is a label, can't remember where I got the photo.... but shows Giuseppe in 1890...

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## brunello97

Nice add, Dave. I notice on this label Giuseppe does not include the 'fu Gaetano' and has his shop in a different location from the label Graham posted.  I am including a couple of Gaetano Vinaccia labels one of which has a fairly illegible date which may be in the '20s. Both are rather graphically crude to my eye given the flourish of previous labels from members of the family. 

Mick

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## Bruce Clausen

From Roangelo.net:

fu: short for figlio (figlia) del fu: son (daughter) of
     the who-was-in-life.  For example, Giovanni
     Valente fu  Nicola: Giovanni Valente, son of the
     now deceased Nicola Valente.  (Fu is the third-
     person singular, simple past tense (preterit)
     of the verb to be: he or she or it was.)

The Gaetano in Rua Catalana who signed a label in 1906 shouldn't be the same man as the deceased Gaetano whose successor was in Via G. Mancinelli in the 1890's.  But maybe the same branch of the family?  And is the Giuseppe in Corso V. Emmanuele in 1890 the successor of Gaetano?  The label doesn't say so;  so perhaps that Gaetano was still living in 1890 but deceased by the time of the Mancinelli label (printed for use in the 1890s).  There are probably enough labels with date, signature AND street address to solve this.

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## brunello97

Bruce, that was my assumption: a possible Gaetano Due for those labels I posted. Or some such person.  This would be a great thread to gather up the assorted Vinaccia labels that folks have collected and track the name, location, date, signatures (if those are to be believed) and see what we have.

I don't have any labels from Gaetano, padre di Giuseppe, in my files. Maybe someone else does?

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I will check on labels etc.

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## Graham McDonald

The story so far...
Pasquale e figli at 53 Rua Catalana, which was where they had been for more than a century
Fratelli Vinaccia (Gennaro and Achille?), from the mid 1880s, same address. Sparks does mention that they had to move to larger premises in the 1890s

Gaetano (son of Gennarao, Achille or Federico?, born 1860s?) from 1890s to at least 1914. at 96 Rua Catalana in 1906 and at another address Chatamone 38? maybe in 1927

And then we have Guiseppe fu Gaetano at 45 Via Guiseppe Mancinelli in the 1890s, which would have meant he was born no later than the early/mid 1870s, which would make it hard for him to be Gaetano's son. As Bruce suggests, we may have two Gaetanos?

I suspect we need more labels  :Smile: 

graham

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## Bruce Clausen

Mick's 1906 label above says Gaetano Vinaccia di Gennaro (=Gennaro's son?). He's still in Rua Catalana, and is being distinguished from another (older?) Gaetano.  Do we have a street address for the "Fratelli" instruments?

The Gaetano whose son is a Giuseppe active in the 1890s should be of the same generation as the three born in the 1830s (Gennaro, Achille, Federico).  But a Pasquale still active in 1882 may be too young to be the father of those three.  

Too many Vinaccias with too few names!

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## Graham McDonald

It is a quiet morning at work, so I have been doing a little internet trawling looking for pics of Vinaccia labels. I am putting them into a spreadsheet with name, address and date so maybe that will illuminate things once I have a few more. Interestingly Mick's Gaetano 1927 label with the red printing has the same Via Chiatamone 32 address as a 1927 Flli Vinaccia fu Ple & Co label. 

Sparks' book has an excerpt from an article written by an English visitor to Rua Catalana 53 in the ealy 1880s where he mentions that old Pasquale (b. 1806) was still there with his three sons Gennaro, Archille and Federico involved in the business. It seems reasonable from those dates that a Gaetano could well be the son of one of these who could be doing things in 1906, but more unlikely in 1927. 

I will put the Excel spreadsheet somewhere accessible if that is useful, but it is a bit sparse at the moment.

cheers

graham

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Mandophile

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## Bruce Clausen

Good, Graham.  So P. is the father of the three G. A. and F.  I see now a Fratelli label from 1894 that specifies Gennaro and Achille (older first) as the brothers.  Address is rua Catalana.  I wonder how late these Fratelli labels persist.  In any case it looks like in the 1890s Giuseppe's was a separate operation.

(edit) I see also a label posted by Jim with Fratelli Vinaccia fu P.le e Co.  (V. brothers, sons of the late Pasquale), but without specifying which brothers.  Date is 1902 and address is now S. Chiara 32 33.  So that part of the operation had moved, but at least one member of the family continued in r. Catalana.

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## Jim Garber

Here are a few more labels to put into the mix. I don't know if this helps anything.

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## brunello97

Great, Jim, thanks. Those are awesome.  I picture Federico Vinaccia as kind of the Fredo Corleone character in this mix.  :Wink:   The Antonio V label you post surely looks later than the 18th C. Antonio in the list noted above. A lot of folks cashing in on the name it seems.  A spread sheet is a good idea Graham, maybe I can work to develop it into an illustrated albero genealogico.

Here is a label with Sonny and Michael at Rue Catalan 53, Pasquale's old place. 

I'll see what else I can turn up.

Mick

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## brunello97

Sorry that one had the same mystery dribbles on it that Giuseppe's did. Here is a cleaner version.

Mick

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## brunello97

One other label I turned up, with i fratelli (Pasquale's kids) and their nephew Munier. Got it all, Graham?  :Wink: 

Keep them coming, ragazzi.

Mick

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## dave17120

Here is another on ebay at the moment...

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## Jim Garber

> Here is another on ebay at the moment...


Dave, that is the one from this thread.

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## Graham McDonald

Here is the info to date. I have grouped the various Pasquale/Fratelli Vinaccia labels together by date, and then Guiseppe and the Gaetanos (if there were two!) Then of course the unexplained Antonio.

I think the big questions are:
1. Who was the second Gaetano? 
2. Why was he working from the same address as Fratelli Vinaccia in 1927?
3. Who were Fratelli Vinaccia in 1927?
4. Where does Antonio fit into this?


Pasquale Vinaccia e figli	- Rua Catalana 53 - 1882	
Frat GENro e Alle Vinaccia fu Ple - Rua Catalana 53 - 1892-1898
F.lli VINACCIA fu Ple e Nipote C. Munier - S. Maria la Nova 25 - 1901	
F.lli Vinaccia fu P.le e Co. -  S. Chiara 32-33 - 1902-1905
Flli Vinaccia fu Ple & Co - Guglielario Dan Felice 22 - 1915	
F.lli Vinaccia fu Ple & Co	 - Via Chiatomone 32 - 1927	

Guiseppe Vinaccia - Corso Vittrio Emmanuelle 466 - 1890	
Guiseppe Vinnacia fu Gaetano	 -- 1899	
Guiseppe Vinaccia e Comp -  No 9 S. Maria a Lanzata a Foria		

Gaetano Vinaccia di Gennaro - Rua Catalana 96 - 1906	
Gaetano Vinaccia	-  Via Chiatamone 32 - 1927?	

Antonio Vinaccia fu Pasquale	

cheers

graham

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## Bruce Clausen

Interesting stuff, Graham.

Maybe the "brothers" outfit developed something like this: At some point near 1900 Gennaro (and Achille?) died.  The company continued it was a large one, and of course we don't know for any period who was actually building the instruments.  But henceforth the Fratelli labels don't identify the brothers;  that is, "Fratelli Vinaccia" has become a brand.  (These labels do however claim a connection to old Pasquale.)  But one of the partners or heirs opts out and starts a separate operation, labeling his instruments Gaetano Vinaccia di Gennaro.  He opens up the street at no. 96 by 1906.  But by 1927  he has dropped the "di Gennaro" and is now occupying the same address as the Fratelli operation;  perhaps a general decline in the mandolin business was involved.

Meanwhile across town (?) we have Giuseppe, whose shop seems to have occupied four different addresses over (perhaps) a short period.  (Notice the crossed out address in the fifth label in Jim's post, dated 1899, and the Mancinelli address from 1898.) He is the "son of the late Gaetano", but we haven't seen a label from this Gaetano and we don't know his relationship to Pasquale's family.

Seem like reasonable possibilities?  Antonio remains a mystery, as does Rubino.

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## brunello97

I like your thinking, Bruce. No counter arguments from me, but just an added perspective. Think about Italy 1906-1927. They went through an unfathomable upheaval (in US/Canadian terms at least) during this time period that we are obsessing about mandolins.  Unification is only a few decades old; monarchy and the papacy is contracting. What else? World War Uno and Mussolini comes to power (when? 1922?)  How a business stays in business is amazing to me.  The family fracturing at this time would come as no surprise.

The latest Fratelli V label I have in my files listing both brothers, is 1909.  It is signed 'Fratelli' which apparently they had done all the way back into the '90s. There were also  around the turn of the century labels bearing 'Fratelli' w/ Gennaro ed Achille as well as 'Fratelli Vinaccia' without the front-names.  Are we talking the same set of brothers here? Both claim Fu Pasquale status.  Two different addresses for these (possible) pairs of brothers: Rue Catalana and S. Chiara. The last label has them (the non Gennaro/Achille labeled) brothers on Via S Sebastian.

Man, that was awful confusing to write.  I hope it makes some sense to y'all.

Does anyone have a Fratelli V label (with Gennaro ed Achille) from the 1900-02 period?  Anything from these bros post 1909?

Mick

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## Bruce Clausen

Excellent, Mick.  That 1909 label demolishes my idea about the occasion for Gaetano's separate operation.  Whatever Gaetano may have been up to in 1906, we clearly have two kinds of Fratelli label used in the same period: F.lli Gen.ro ed A.lle Vinaccia fu P.le (at least 1892 to 1909) and F.lli Vinaccia fu P.le & Co. (with or without Munier, at least 1901-27).  Both labels claim the makers are purveyors to Her Majesty, so it would seem they are the same company with the same founding brothers. So what do we know about the mandolins themselves— for example is one of these labels found on better instruments?

(edit)  I've just noticed that all the Fratelli labels without the brothers' first names mention prizes won in London and Chicago.  These might have little or no value locally but be considered important for the export trade. So maybe these labels went on export instruments?

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## dave17120

Sorry Jim, didn't see that fred?!  :Frown:

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## Graham McDonald

I know I will be probably be chastised by Alex T for such supposition based on incomplete evidence, but it might be that they used the F.lli Gen.ro ed A.lle Vinaccia fu P.le label until Gennaro died in 1908 and then went to the more ambiguous F.lli Vinaccia labels after that. Of course that then suggests that there were still people working from Rua Catalana 53 until at least 1909, when there are two other addresses on labels from 1901 until at least 1905. Sparks mentions a BMG magazine article from 1956 that says the 'most' of the Vinaccia workers moved from there in the 1890s to larger premises, so maybe manufacturing going on at two or more addresses.

Here is another label I found yesterday, which looks like it could be from the late 30s, though hard to read and a pic of the fairly plain instrument it is in. It is from a 'for sale' page in the Italian mandolin federation site (I think)

Thank you all for your suggestions and input. It is a tiny bit of mandolin history, but it would be good to have it sorted out, some some extent at least. The next big challenge is getting my head around Chicago and who was doing what to who there...

cheers

graham

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## brunello97

Graham, the 'Fratelli Vinaccia' (senza Gennaro e Achille) I posted above has a date of 1902 on it, a bit before Gennaro's passing.  Great to see such a late Vinaccia......

Chicago, eh?  (Good luck with that.) If someone can bring some clarity to the Regal/L+H/Larson/Mauer/Stahl/Bohmann/Brandt etc. incestuosity they would deserve the keys to the city. Keef's book on Washburn is a good start if you haven't checked it, but it is the tip of the iceberg.

Mick

Mick

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## Graham McDonald

Perhaps I was misreading. This one looks like 1909?

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## Jim Garber

Some labels from 1909 and after plus one later Antonio one.

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## brunello97

Graham, I meant this one: 'Fratelli V fu P senza G e A' label, 1902.

Whoa, Santiago, you are flooring me here with that 'label bomb'...... Muy excellente.  When folks have everything dealt, I'll try to put this altogether into a 'label-o-timeline' and post as a .pdf.

Mick

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## brunello97

Whoa, James, we have now two additional addresses for the peripatetic fratelli:

Via Guglielmo San Felice 22 on the 1909 label, and 

Via Chiatamone 32 on the 1923 label.

This is very curious.  

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> Whoa, Santiago, you are flooring me here with that 'label bomb'...... Muy excellente.  When folks have everything dealt, I'll try to put this altogether into a 'label-o-timeline' and post as a .pdf.


Hah! There is a cafe user named Santiago and I thought he posted here...   ¡Yo deseo de adquirir todas las etiquetas, mi amigo!

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## brunello97

Jim, among my oldest/best pals down in Austin is one Santiago Cotera.  I think of each of you when writing to the other!

Mick

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## Graham McDonald

I have Gugliarmo San Felice 22 on three labels from 1909 1913 and 1915
and Via Chatamone 32 on two from 1922 and 1927, as well as one from Guiseppe at the same address in 1927 (although the year is indistinct)

and then the Via S Sebastiono 35 from 1939 (if I read that one right)

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## Bruce Clausen

Nice work, lads.  The three 1923 labels in Jim's post are interesting;  looks like the New York importer E. Rossi has added a sticker expressly designed to obscure the Naples address of the workshop.  The German importer Moderne Musik simply puts their own label (like for example the Voigt Ceccherini labels), so that we don't even know which Vinaccia company built the instrument.  Do we have photos of the mandolin that label is in?

Interesting too that in 1923 the Fratelli outfit are still touting an award won 30 years earlier in Chicago.

Why are we seeing labels signed "Fratelli Vinaccia" twice in two different hands?

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## Graham McDonald

Two brothers, so even if one or both had passed on, there would still be two signatures...  :Wink:

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## Margriet

Here a photo of the label of a 1913 Gaetano Vinaccia. I would like to restore the markings for the place of the bridge. As there are only remains of them, I would like to see an example to draw them again. Does anyone have pictures of those ? How were these made, drawn with pencil, burned ? Were they only made by Gaetano or do you find them more often, at other makers ?
 



Margriet

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Margriet, 

Nice! 
Photo with measurements of such a (compleete) bridge will be on it's way to you soon.

Best, Alex  :Smile: .

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## roady43

Searching for late 18th century work drawings (templates) of Neapolitan mandolins as Domenico Vinaccia.
Does anyone have such or knows how and where to get it?

Thanks

roady43

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## vic-victor

Sorry to revive the old thread. 1934 Vinaccia. Plain instrument and needs work, but got it for a song.

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## brunello97

Nothing to apologize for, Victor, this is great to see, however modest.  Nice, actually, to keep these clearly titled, singularly focussed threads alive.

1934, Via Chiatamone.  That is a fairly late Vinaccia at least relative to examples in my files (which unfortunately I don't have access to right now.)

I hope it turns out playable and an enjoyable mandolin.

Mick

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## vic-victor

Maybe a statment far too bold, but it looks like it could be the latest known Vinaccia so far. At least I couldn't find the reference in the net to any later dated instrument. The latest I could find was a mentioning of 1933 mandola.

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## vic-victor

But according to Graham there is one from 1939

"and then the Via S Sebastiono 35 from 1939 (if I read that one right)" so my statement is incorrect

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## brunello97

The 1939 model is also a very modest instrument by Vinaccia-n standards.

Mick

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## vic-victor

I've found some genealogical records on Vinaccia family. https://familysearch.org/search/coll...ion_id=1937990

Thought it needs to be shared. Lots of information from 19C.

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## mrmando

Another Via San Sebastiano 35 label here, looks like: 

http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/msg/5198323970.html

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brunello97

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## vic-victor

Who knows we may be able to see the label from early 1940's there. Needs to be bought by a cafe member, I think.  Especially for $60.00 The case costs that much, so Vinaccia is thown in for free, actually.

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## vic-victor

Thre are over 300 entries for Vinaccia family in the database. It's a pity it only goes up to 1865.

Just some matches from which only Achille and Gennaro plus their father Pasquale appears to be a 100% match. Of the others I am not too sure about. Anyway, there we go:

Mariantonia De Grandi

Mother

Italy, Napoli, Civil Registration (State Archive), 1809-1865
		spouse:
Pasquale Vinaccia
child:
Gennaro Maria Giosuè Francesco Luigi Raimondo Salvatore

Achille Vinaccia

Italy, Napoli, Civil Registration (State Archive), 1809-1865
	birth:
29 October 1836
Quartiere San Ferdinando, Napoli, Napoli, Italy
	father:
Pasquale Vinaccia
mother:
Mariantonia De Grandi


Gaetano Vinaccia

Italy, Napoli, Civil Registration (State Archive), 1809-1865
	birth:
1813
Napoli
marriage:
14 August 1836
Quartiere San Ferdinando, Napoli, Napoli, Italy
	father:
Vincenzo Vinaccia
mother:
Silvia Cardamone
spouse:
Giovanna Contardi
other:
Francesco Contardi, Francesca Consales

Antonio Vinaccia

Italy, Napoli, Civil Registration (State Archive), 1809-1865
	birth:
28 December 1856
Quartiere Montecalvario, Napoli, Napoli, Italy
	father:
Matteo Vinaccia
mother:
Vincenza Panza


Antonio Vinaccia

Italy, Napoli, Civil Registration (State Archive), 1809-1865
	birth:
12 April 1848
Quartiere Vomero, Napoli, Napoli, Italy
	father:
Raffaele Vinaccia
mother:
Anna De Luca


Pasquale Vinaccia

Italy, Napoli, Civil Registration (State Archive), 1809-1865
	birth:
27 June 1837
Quartiere Vomero, Napoli, Napoli, Italy
	father:
Raffaele Vinaccia
mother:
Maria Gargiulo

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## vic-victor

There you go - 1940's

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brunello97

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## Text_Head

Firstly hello to fellow forum users,

This is my first forum post. I have an instrument inherited from my father's family that has an internal label that fits the format mentioned above by Bruce Clausen, i. e. it names the prizes gained at the 1893 and 1898 World Fairs. The instrument I have is in the UK now, but I don't know whether it was exported or bought during a journey to Italy. Any thoughts on the provenance indicated by the label would be welcome. The date appears to be 1929.

I've included the best shots I could get of the label, but it is still inside an instrument (also shown) so I am writing out the text as far as I can interpret it, below.

As far as I know this instrument is not a mandolin but may be a ukelele or guitar. It was left with my father's family by a family friend who sadly never came back from WWII, and I inherited it from my father. I am going to add a fuller text with a linked album to the "What have I got?' thread.

However adding to the VInaccia label thread, my best interpretation of the full label is:

At top of label what appears to be F.lli. Vinaccia handwritten
Then in print what appears to be 
F.LLI. VINACCIA fu P.LE & Co.
FABRICANTI DI STRUMENTI ARMONICI
fornitori della R Casa dItaliaPrimo Premio Chicago 1893					Primo Premio London 1898
RUE CHIATAMONTE 32 NAPOLI 1929 (last digit handwritten)
With thanks for any reflections and hoping this post meets the required forum etiquette!
Daisy (aka Text_Head)

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## brunello97

Hello, Daisy.... I don't think I can help you in terms of what your instrument _actually is_.   An Italo-Ukelele?  I don't know.

The label, though, is an example of one of the numerous branches of the Vinaccia family of instrument makers, which by 1929 were well into their second century of work.   

The label refers to the fratelli Vinaccia--the Vinaccia Brothers--fu Pasquale.  My understanding of "fu" as opposed to "di" is that the former refers to a deceased parent. 

Nice to have a date associated with the Via Chiatamonte location.  In addition to the various members of the family making mandolins (and small ukelele-like instruments apparently) they had a number of different addresses in Napoli.

Mick

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## Text_Head

Dear Mick,

Thank you for your swift reply and information. That certainly illuminates the context of the instrument's making. Also explains the 'fu' Pasquale, which wasn't clear previously. I'm glad that the date relating to Via Chiatamonte was helpful. 

With kind regards, Daisy

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## Jim Garber

It definitely looks like a ukulele. The date is 1929? Could've been a one off custom though you never know. People would walk into the shop and just want an instrument. I would love to see more pics of this uke.

Also can you measure it and post measurements?

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## Text_Head

Jim,
Many thanks for your reply and for identifying this as a ukelele. 
The instrument is around 20 inches long and the body is 9 1/2 by 9 inches.
Sorry not to have replied sooner. I tried to turn on automatic notification for this thread but I can't seem to get it to work properly yet...Anyway many thanks for your help and insight.
Daisy

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## Bruce Clausen

Interesting uke!  Looks like it still has the pre-war gut strings.

Built in a Vinaccia workshop, or was the workshop a wholesaler or retailer of instruments they brought in?

Same question arises with this violin, recently posted on another forum.  Gaetano Vinaccia label, printed for 19th century use, and with the address Rua Catalana no. 46.  Actual date isn't legible in the posted photos, but probably a cheap late-19th century French or German import, or possibly a cheap Italian violin of the same period. But there were two famous Vinaccias building violins in Naples in the 18th and early 19th centuries, so the forum discussion got side-tracked over whether this violin was an authentic old treasure, or a fake. Discussion is at:

http://www.violinist.com/discussion/...e.cfm?ID=27217

Presumably a dealer's label, not a builder's, and this may give us another angle on the business as it existed in Naples. Here's the best of the photos:

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## brunello97

> Presumably a dealer's label, not a builder's, and this may give us another angle on the business as it existed in Naples. Here's the best of the photos:


Here's a Gaetano Vinnacia mandolin and label that I have in my files.  It is Rua Catalana 96. Dated 1910.  Bruce, can you confirm that what you are seeing is a "46" or is that a typo?

Pasquale Vinaccia had a place at Rua Catalana 53 with labels including his figli, an address later used by the Fratelli V and also Gennaro V.  I need to check where 96 is relative to 53 but it would seem to be in the same neighborhood.  

The examples of Gaetano's work that I have on file show a wide range of stylistic differences between models and years.  Was he a maker or a dealer or both?  The violin discussion you linked seems to suggest options 2 or 3 might be valid.

By 1927 Gaetano's labels had him on Via Chiatamone 32 the same address used by the Fratelli V on the attached 1923 label.

I assumed the Fratelli V at this time were still Gennaro and Achille but perhaps not.  See attached example of their label from Rua Catalana 53 dated 1909.

This, of course, leads us back to the questions Graham asked in his first post on this thread.  The Fratelli V (Achille and Gennaro) were apparently deceased at this time and someone (Gaetano?) was minding the store--now back at the Via Chiatamone address.  Fratelli V label for things they made and Gaetano V for things they dealt?

"Sorting out the Vinaccia" indeed.  We have a bit of collective work ahead of us  :Smile: .

Thanks for posting this.  A very interesting addition to the thread.  I really need to spend some time on the ground in Napoli to help my understanding of all these Vinaccias.  The trip would do me a world of good besides.

Mick

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## Bruce Clausen

Hi, Mick.  Here's the other label photo posted on Violinist.com.  It does look like 46.



It was a big family.  The violin world knows a Gennaro who flourished in the late 18th century, and a Gaetano whose dates are given as c.1759- c.1831.  This Gaetano is said to be the first to build a six-string guitar (instead of 12), but also built violin family instruments.  Another Gaetano is identified as the inventor of the Neapolitan mandolin, around 1744.  Much confusion and oversimplification, for example here:

http://www.premiogeminiani.org/conte...63/28/lang,en/

Turns out there's also an architecture theoretician Gaetano Vinaccia, 1889-1971:

http://www.gses.it/pionieri/vinaccia.php

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## brunello97

Sure does, Bruce. Thanks. These folks moved around a lot--or owned a lot of property.  Or else had issues with their typesetting.  :Wink: 

I think we have a few Gennaros and Gaetanos in the mix now, as Graham--and the labeling evidence--imply. It is curious that contributions of the earlier Vinaccia sometimes seem clearer to us than the later.

Bummer on your architect-Vinaccia link.  Doesn't seem to be working  Can you check that? Never heard of _this_ Gaetano V in my profession. I wonder if he made wine as well.... :Wink: 

Mick

----------


## Text_Head

Bruce - thanks for uploading the label photos - very illuminating. 
Below are the best pictures I can get of the label inside the instrument. Full text is given higher up the thread.It is closest to your label 4 but with handwritten F.llli. Vinaccia at the top.
Yes the ukulele does seem to still have cat gut strings, although one is rather the worse for wear. Am hoping to take it to a luthier who specialises in ukuleles.
Daisy

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## Bruce Clausen

Good, Daisy.  Those strings are probably sheep gut-- you can still get them, but since nylon hit the market in 1948 almost no one wants them. 

Mick's 1909 label mentions the Queen of Italy.  Yours from 1929 says the Royal House.  Queen Margherita (really Queen Mother by then) died in 1926, so maybe that's when that change was made.

Mick, sorry about that link.  It works fine for me.  Gets you to an item in the newsletter of the Gruppo per la storia dell' energia solare. That name might get you there another way.

And yes, a little field trip to Naples might do us all good.

----------


## Text_Head

Thanks Bruce for the information on the strings and references to royal patronage. It would make sense that the reference would change after the death of Queen Margherita and this may help to confirm the instrument I have as late 1920's.
Daisy

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## Bruce Clausen

Just noticed Mick's 1923 label above. Same info as yours, Daisy, and the same street address, but with the reference to Margherita replaced.  So it does look like they had to make that change after she died.

I love the signatures on that label.  Two people have each signed "Vinaccia Brothers", one across the bottom and the other using the two side margins. Presumably by 1923 the brothers themselves (the two that were "fu Pasquale") were long gone.

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## Text_Head

Bruce, I'm sure that is right about Margerita. Love the label too. However the 29-er still has "fu P.LE & Co." on so wonder if P.LE still signifies Pasquale and if so why it's included?
Daisy

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## Bruce Clausen

Daisy, check out post 20 in this thread for a summary.  Briefly, Pasquale (d. 1885) was the patriarch.  Some labels show Pasquale and Sons.  Then we see Fratelli Vinaccia labels that identify the brothers as Gennaro and Achille "fu Pasquale" (sons of the late Pasquale). But after a while those names are dropped from the labels and the expression Fratelli Vinaccia becomes simply a brand name. We assume that Gennaro and Achille were no longer living or no longer active at this point.  But old Pasquale is still remembered on the labels as the founder of the business.

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## Text_Head

Bruce - that makes sense that Pasquale would be honoured as the founder of the business. Thank you for that insight. I have read entry 20 but my instrument comes after its last listing of Gaetano Vinaccia II at 32 Via Chiatamone in 1927, so I am happy to take F.lli. Vinaccia as a brand name. Good to know the label still honours the founder, though.
Daisy

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## Tavy

Time to revive this old thread, there's a 1937 (?) Vinaccia on eBay at present.

Label has:

F'llli Vinaccia Fu P.le & Co

and

Via S. Sebastiano 35 Napoli.

It's also signed by a Vinaccia, but I can't read which  :Frown:

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## Jim Garber

> It's also signed by a Vinaccia, but I can't read which


As far as I can tell, it was signed "Fratelli Vinaccia."  I assume whoever was around signed a bunch of labels. Unless we engage the services of a handwriting expert or find descendants of the family who were around back then, we will never know.

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## Tavy

> As far as I can tell, it was signed "Fratelli Vinaccia."  I assume whoever was around signed a bunch of labels. Unless we engage the services of a handwriting expert or find descendants of the family who were around back then, we will never know.


I fear you are correct: could have been signed by the janitor for all we can tell!

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## vic-victor

1940's are not that far away yet, so there must be people who know the answer in Napoli. Just a matter of asking around there I guess. There are a couple of shops nearby that have something to do to with musical instruments that still run the business, like Galleria Milletti, for instance. I think they are actually took over the premises Vinaccia used to have (or next door at least) I tried to work out via google street view, but it is not easy.

https://www.facebook.com/Galleria-Mi...8941878276022/

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## brunello97

Thanks, Victor.  Great "Timeline" collection of photos on the Miletti FB page

Here is a link to the Miletti site itself with images from an exhibit in 2012 in Amalfi, it seems.

Mick

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## vic-victor

Recently on ebay, card addressed to Gaetano Vinaccia.

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## Bruce Clausen

Cool!  Seems to be a message of cordial thanks for some atto generoso.  A collector probably took the stamp long ago.

I find at least one modern Corrado Sontini (in Milan), but none from 1924.

Wonder if it's addressed to the luthier or the architect?  Do we know the address from anywhere?

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## vic-victor

It is definitely addressed to the luthier. The address is correct for Vinaccia shop in 1920's-30's (Via Chiatamone 32) It was probably Gaetano that minded the business until it's end in early 1940's.

----------

Bruce Clausen

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## plinkey

> Recently on ebay, card addressed to Gaetano Vinaccia.


That is an interesting find: a postcard containing a picture of the Italian "Alcatraz" (on Asinara island), apparently dispatched from Asinara. 
There was a certain Camorra member by the name of Corrado Sortini on trial for murder etc. in Italy in 1911. Coincidences ? Both the Camorra and bb mandolin building are traditional Neapolitan phenomena.

----------

Bruce Clausen, 

brunello97, 

vic-victor

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## vic-victor

Interesting. I always thought that sucessful businesses in both Napoli and Catania could not go unnoticed by local mafia at that time.

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## plinkey

> Interesting. I always thought that sucessful businesses in both Napoli and Catania could no go unnoticed by local mafia at that time.


Victor, one major reason for the tenacity of those "honorable associations" was that they permeated into every segment of the society. The postcard you have discovered  opens a door to some fascinating speculations and research by history buffs.

----------

vic-victor

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## brunello97

Here's Sig. Sortini on the far right in what a guess is an Italian version of the "perp shot".

And a link to the story of the crime and trial.  Seems like Sortini was accused of being one of the button men in the murder of a guy who ratted out another guy for a supposed theft on _Via Chiatamone_.

The coincidences between the story of Sortini and Gaetano Vinaccia may have some deeper history. 

Mick

----------

DavidKOS, 

vic-victor

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## Bruce Clausen

Great stuff, Mick!

Here's some background in English on the case, including the New York arrest of Erricone and the subsequent assassination of Petrosino:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrico_Alfano

Connection to the Vinaccia shop is of course open to any and all theorizing...

----------

vic-victor

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## brunello97

Surely more to come on the Alfano-Sortini-Gaetano V story but in the meanwhile here is an interesting 1876 Pasquale Vinaccia with maple boaty / bulgy back design, beefy neck profile with a pronounced fb radius and slotted headstock.  

Cool looking mandolin.

Mick

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## vic-victor

Surely an unusual one. Thanks for posting!

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## vic-victor

An interesting 1900's Giuseppe fu Gaetano label. New address.

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## brunello97

Muy coolioso, Victor.  Thanks.  That address is in a dense and sketchy part of Napoli.  

Is there a mandolin that goes with the label? 

Mick

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## vic-victor

A very nice one, actually.

----------

Bruce Clausen, 

brunello97, 

Jim Garber

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## Tavy

> A very nice one, actually.


Wow, nice mandolin!

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vic-victor

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## gianni athens

hello my name is john and im from greece i found this mandolin from my wife can you please tell me if its worth and how much ? thanks in advance john.

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## vic-victor

Hi John. Nice instrument, from the photo that you provided it appears to be in a decent shape. Photo of the back and from the side would help. It is a very basic model though. It is very hard to give estimates without seeing the instrument physically. There are lots of things that can be wrong with a mandolin that affects it's price. A ready to play instrument is one thing and a shipwreck is an entirely different story. Similar madolins have sold for around $200-500 depending on condition. A trouble-free fully playable instrument can bring a bit more.

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## brunello97

An exceptional 1923 Vinaccia on the Ebay--exceptional for being so reminiscent of the flourished Calace style of the time, but still retaining the tiny carved head from earlier design aesthetics.

Looks to be in equally good and playable condition. Beautiful maple bowl and scratchplate.  Note the holes in the bridge. 

Helpful for me to see the tiny head at the end of the reverse tapered headstock.  My (much earlier) Vinaccia is missing the headstock ornament and I have seen few examples that suggest what might have been there with the similar shaped headstock.  The joint on this is in the same location as on mine.

I think it's time to model up one of these heads to replace on mine. A self portrait would be ideal. But, I'm thinking Garibaldi.... 

Mick

----------

vic-victor

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## vic-victor

Hi Mick. Nice instrument and very unusual. Lined with wood shavings in Roman style, Calace-like design and Vinaccia label. Funny these things popped up out of the blue recently. Embergher-like Calace, Calace-like Vinaccia  :Disbelief:  I've seen another Calacesque Vinaccia from the same period though. Here are the pics:

----------

Beanzy, 

brunello97

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## brunello97

Muy coolioso, Víctor. I enjoy the Calace design from the 20s, so no harm in seeing their influence. 
Note the label change between '23 and '29 (and what else was going down in Italy in the interim.)
Mandolin (and pizza) aficionado Queen Margherita passed in '26.
Mick

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vic-victor

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## Beanzy

Massive emigration up until after the Facists came to power in '22 then it slowed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_diaspora

Wasn't Calace at the peak of his fame in the early '20s & touring Japan etc? Maybe everyone wanted a part of that action?

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## JeffD

I won a 1989 Fratelli Vinaccia at a bricks and mortar auction, talked about here.

I picture the mandolin below. I have a question about something I have never seen before, and perhaps I feel very foolish for never seeing it before. 

The tail piece cover does not support itself in position. It is kept in position by running the lowest and highest strings over the "ears" of the tailpiece. At first I thought this was a mistake, or an attempt to hide a problem with the tail piece. But I looked at several pictures of Vinaccias on line everyone with a similar tail piece is held in place this way.  Really?!!  :Disbelief:

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## Beanzy

Nice one Jeff. Love the case too. 

It's really the same with those tortoiseshell string guards too, but they're separate from the structure and mostly seem to be missing by the time we get to buy them nowadays. The actual anchor for the tailpiece is the screw fittings, but the arm-guard is hooked under the outer courses. I think it's a bit like an anti-snag feature for cuffs & this one is a combined one rather than the separate add-on. When you play with the arm in-line with the strings, mandolin held high, some sort of cover can be important, less so if you come in from above & use a strap.

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## Tavy

As Beanzy says, that's the normal mode of fitting the sleeve guard to a bowl.

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## vic-victor

Latest known Vinaccia so far, from 1943, have been spotted in Italy !!!

----------

brunello97

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## brunello97

1943, Victor?  Wow.  That is super interesting.  During the war years....?
Very Calace-ian with the round sound hole, 'Australia' inlaid stratchplate and headstock.
Thanks for posting!
Mick

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## vic-victor

Yes, and the same style as another one from 1940 which I thought was the very latest. 

Here is another, the most unusual one, from Gaetano Vinaccia, from 1901

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## brunello97

Here's an interesting, se completamente distrutto, Giuseppe Vinaccia on the Ebay.

Dated 1896 the label has the address of Salita Arenella 66, the third address I have for Beppe V, and admittedly one I hadn't seen before.

I'll spare y'all the really scary images from the auction site.

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

Thanks for that update, Mick.  I've just double-checked and my 1898 Giuseppe has the "Via Giuseppe Mancinelli 45" address.  Looks like he moved around quite a bit in the 1890s.  The two addresses are about a mile apart and both houses still exist although either address is particularly central or prestigious.  For what it's worth, the earlier 1890 address in this thread, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 466, also still exists.  It's about half way between the other two and a rather grander affair, with views over the hills down to the Bay.

Martin

----------

brunello97

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## Martin Jonas

Also interesting to plot Giuseppe's addresses against those on the labels issued by the Fratelli and other family members -- Giuseppe is out in the hills of Materdei and Arenella, whereas the other Vinaccia addresses are all very close to each other in the city centre near the port.

Looks like by 1900, Giuseppe got fed up with ordering new labels whenever he moved and just said "Naples" without street address.

Martin

----------

brunello97

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## Jarek

Hello to all mandolin enthusiasts  :Smile:  I have just auctioned off the GAETANO VINACCIA 1921 mandolin, which I would like to rennovate because it is in a very bad condition  :Frown: . I read an extensive thread about the Geatano family but I cannot read the signature on the label. Please help with identification.

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Eugene

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## brunello97

Looks like "Gaetano Vinaccia" to me.   
Gaetano (someone from Gaeta,) would have been his first name.  
Vinaccia (actually the left over pulp and skins from wine making) is the family name.

Tell us more about your mandolin... :Wink: 

You've come to the right place.

Mick

----------

Jarek

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## Jarek

Thanks brunello97 for the answer 
Label similar to post # 6 and caption similar to post # 36.
Labels are similar too.
You're right the signature looks like Geatano Vinacia.
Is it possible that there was a Geatano in 1913, 1917, 1921?
I got the mandolin at an auction in Japan. I felt very sad when I saw her and I am going to bring her back to life  :Smile:

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Eugene

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## brunello97

Jarek, that looks to be in sad condition, but not impossible.  The top appears to be in good condition.
Poco a poco you could probably get the bowl staves realigned and glued before reattaching the top.

The key will be the condition / position / geometry of the neck once the mandolin returns to whole.
Good luck with the project.

If you are doing the work yourself, why not post a thread with photos of your progress in the "builders and repairs" section here?

While there isn't a lot of folks working with bowlbacks here, it would be a good place for you to catch the eye of folks who might offer advice and encouragement.

Of course we'd all love to see the process and progress here, I'm sure there will be many others in that section who don't come by to this part of the MC that would appreciate your efforts.

Good luck!

Mick

----------

Eugene, 

Jarek

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## vic-victor

New label:


A very interesting 1901 Vinaccia with Calace-like sound ports. Just about the time Calace first used this innovation. Label mentiones both brothers, Gennaro and Achille.

----------

brunello97, 

Eugene

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## vic-victor

1902 Label is already different:

And another great item found in the net:

----------

brunello97, 

Eugene

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## vic-victor

Also an interesting paper article from 1893 from here:
https://www.lucassobieranski.com/vin...dolins-history

----------

brunello97, 

Joe Bartl

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## brunello97

Incredible little website, Victor, and tantalizing little story.   
I wonder if the writer was truly from Wichita or if this was an early version of filler or "wire stories" to flesh out the newspaper.
1893 is pretty early on for US made mandolins the author refers to.

But what a story.

By 1893 Gennaro and Achille V were working out of the 53 Rua Catalan location.  I wonder, though, if "the old gentleman" was Pasquale V still hanging around while his sons were running the business?

Even more tantalizing is to think what became of his instrument.  I have a Fratelli V mandolin from this era that I bought in the states.  
No, it couldn't be.   :Wink: 

Attached is a recent shot of Rua Catalana.

I hope Lucas keeps updating his site with new discoveries!

Mick

----------

DavidKOS, 

vic-victor

----------


## vic-victor

Hi Mick,

It must have been an old Pasquale. He passed away in 1882, according to Wikipedia. The article is from 1883, but the actual voyage could have happened a year or more ago easily. By the way it looks like the brothers continued using old Pasquale label stock for at least two more years after his passing: (or perhaps P.'s passing date is incorrect).

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## brunello97

> Hi Mick,
> 
> It must have been an old Pasquale. He passed away in 1882, according to Wikipedia. The article is from 1883, but the actual voyage could have happened a year or more ago easily. By the way it looks like the brothers continued using old Pasquale label stock for at least two more years after his passing: (or perhaps P.'s passing date is incorrect).


Thanks, Victor....let's double check.
The Kansas newspaper article says 1893, that would be some years after Pasquale passed at age 76 if the Wiki article is to be believed.

But of course, the article could be relaying a story that had occurred many years before and became 'newsworthy' along with the mandolin craze in the US.

If all dates are correct, PV would be in his early '80s should he still be alive in 1893.  His sons, Gennaro and Achille could very well have been in their late 50s or early 60s...but perhaps not be the 'old white haired Italian gentleman' the author refers.

Could have been _another_ Vinaccia altogether minding the store....but that would really get confusing. 

As you suggest, Vecchio Pasquale makes the most sense to me with the Wichita linemen relaying a story from an earlier mandolin seeking voyage.

Mick

----------


## vic-victor

Thanks for picking up the date of a Kansas newspaper, I was out by 10 years. I guess we won't know for sure now, Vinaccia was a big family...

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## brunello97

> Thanks for picking up the date of a Kansas newspaper, I was out by 10 years. I guess we won't know for sure now, Vinaccia was a big family...


I'm no expert on midland American newspapers, Victor, but my hunch is that a story like this wouldn't necessarily be "hot off the presses".  
The storyteller could indeed be relating a much earlier visit to Napoli as you suggest.

In the Middle of the MidWest those kinds of 'exotic travelogue' stories might have well had a ready audience.
As they do for you and me, today.... :Wink: 

Mick

----------

vic-victor

----------


## vic-victor

Interesting that no one wrote a book on Vinaccia. All info is scattered in various places. There must be modern branches of V. family that know more and given there are still hundreds if not thousands V. instruments around it could have been an interesting album. Someone made that kind of job on Calace in the past. I read somewhere that there was a coffee table sort of book put together some 20 years ago, but I have not seen the actual book. And, there is one on Embergher by Ralf Leenen, of course. Also a rarity these days. I don't have one.

----------

Eugene

----------


## brunello97

> Interesting that no one wrote a book on Vinaccia. All info is scattered in various places. There must be modern branches of V. family that know more and given there are still hundreds if not thousands V. instruments around it could have been an interesting album. Someone made that kind of job on Calace in the past. I read somewhere that there was a coffee table sort of book put together some 20 years ago, but I have not seen the actual book. And, there is one on Embergher by Ralf Leenen, of course. Also a rarity these days. I don't have one.


Agreed.  Seems like a very ripe PhD dissertation topic for a host of Italian universities.  Perhaps it already has been but remains on a dusty shelf somewhere.

Mick

----------

vic-victor

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## Jim Garber

To add a question to this current discussion: Granted it was a large family, so where are the actual descendants of the makers? There must be some of them somewhere interested in their family history.

----------

vic-victor

----------


## Eugene

> And, there is one on Embergher by Ralf Leenen, of course. Also a rarity these days. I don't have one.


By Ralf Leenen and Barry Pratt.  I was fortunate to score my copy directly from the authors when initially released.  It's a lovely work.  Ralf is active and, last I knew, responsive to correspondence.  Even though his site declares "sold out," it might be worth it to drop him a line.  There appear to be surprisingly few copies in public library collections.

----------

brunello97, 

Joe Bartl, 

vic-victor

----------


## Eugene

Going way back to mandolins of the 1700s, but today's excursion into WorldCat has produced this bit of intrigue that discusses one early effort from the Vinaccia family: https://www.worldcat.org/title/the-g...=brief_results

----------

Joe Bartl

----------


## brunello97

> Going way back to mandolins of the 1700s, but today's excursion into WorldCat has produced this bit of intrigue that discusses one early effort from the Vinaccia family: https://www.worldcat.org/title/the-g...=brief_results


A deep dive:

"This paper reports the results of several scientific analyses carried out on ten mandolins made in the second half of the eighteenth century by the most important Neapolitan mandolin manufacturers such as the Filano, Fabricatore, Gagliano and Vinaccia families. Various elements of decoration were characterized for each mandolin: the resins of the sound hole decorations, the black wood strips of the purflings, the varnishes and the glues. Thanks to microscopy observations SEM-EDX, µFT-IR and µRaman analysis, a multi-technique approach was used in order to fully characterize and compare some of the decoration-making techniques peculiar of each family of makers. Shellac was the main organic material used both in the sound hole decorations and in the varnishes. Inorganic fillers such as aluminosilicates, particles of iron oxides/hydroxides and microfossils of diatoms were found within the false inlays. Black iron-based dyes were identified as dyes for the black wood strips of the purflings."

Interesting to see the Gagliano name included.

My goodness, Eug, there are a half dozen copies of this within range here in ATX.  I bike by the (newish) city central library every morning.  Will be stopping in.

Thanks!

Mick

----------


## Eugene

Cheers!  And I work at a place that holds a copy . . . although I haven't been to campus for more than a year now.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Going way back to mandolins of the 1700s, but today's excursion into WorldCat has produced this bit of intrigue that discusses one early effort from the Vinaccia family: https://www.worldcat.org/title/the-g...=brief_results


Any mention of the mysterious sound ports on the tops?

----------


## vic-victor

> Any mention of the mysterious sound ports on the tops?


Unlikely, as they only appeared in 1900-1901 and the article apparently discusses the earlier instruments.

----------

Eugene

----------


## vic-victor

Some music shop in Australia was recently selling an unusual mandolin, claiming to be Fratelli Vinaccia from the year 1953, which is very interesting, to say the least. The instrument doesn't look Vinaccia, but there is still a chance that some Vinaccia offspring was still functioning in 1950's and had something to do with this instrument. Anyway, here's the photos:

----------


## vic-victor

And the label

----------

Jim Garber

----------


## brunello97

Super strange and interesting, Victor.  Thanks for posting this.

About 20 years newer than any Vinaccia I've seen.

It's interesting that the label boasts of a prize from the _1950_ esposizione. 

Can't recall seeing a FV with a slotted headstock but I have seen a few of them from the 20s that do adopt 
very Calace-sque design features....not that I've ever seen a Calace with a slotted headstock though there's 
likely one out there.

Could be real or maybe a cheeky Catanese fake...I'm thinking of the type font and layout on the label, but that's not much of an indictment.

Or someone rebirthing the brand name as is is common practice with US names (eg. Washburn)

We've got a new benchmark it seems.

Mick

----------

vic-victor

----------


## Valbert

Here's a 1925/1926 Vinaccia I just acquired... apart from a crack in the middle of the soundboard (the big crack on the side seems to have been repaired/glued), it's in good condition, sounds and plays great. Any infos on who of the Vinaccias made this one?

Sorry, somehow the images got flipped during upload...

----------

brunello97

----------


## vic-victor

Looks like Gaetano was looking after the business until his passing in 1927. Who was doing that after him it is still a question. Vinaccia was a big family.

----------

brunello97

----------


## vic-victor

Here is another curious example of late Vinaccia (assuming it is original and not a fake) spotted being for sale in Japan, from 1968 (sic !). Can't work out the first name in the signature (is it Alfonso?) can anyone? Certainly interesting with no paper lining, but cleats between the ribs instead.

----------


## Jim Garber

Victor: I saw that one awhile ago on ebay. My first impression was that the first name was Alberto.

----------

vic-victor

----------


## Tavy

Those cleats must have taken for ever to do!

----------

vic-victor

----------

