# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Hand position for bar chords

## AllWhoYonder

Hello,

I was wondering what the proper hand position was for bar chords such as 2245. I find that I must slide my thumb behind the neck in order to make this chord. Is that recommended? It is far more difficult for me to make that chord if I don't and I've found that it hurt my index finger and the joint near the tip if I don't.

What a great message board! I've already gotten so much help! Thanks everyone!

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## stratman62

That, IMHO, is what the opposable thumb is for. That is the only way I can do it also.

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## Pete Martin

Whenever you play barre chords, line the barre finger (the index in your example) up with the fret.  The thumb will often be most comfortable behind the neck in a classical guitar like position.

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## AllWhoYonder

Very helpful. Thanks!!

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## mandocrucian

There are _actually_ *SIX fingering variations* of the 2-2-4-5 shape.  Depends which finger you barre with (index or middle) or whether you barre it or use the tip. And the choice of m-r or r-p on the top strings.

i-i-m-r (1-1-2-3: flat 1st finger barre)
i-i-r-p (1-1-3-4: flat 1st finger barre)

NH

i-i-m-r (1-1-2-3:  Tip -1st finger)
i-i-r-p (1-1-3-4:   Tip- 1st finger)

m-m-r-p  (2-2-3-4:  Flat 2nd finger barre)
m-m-r-p  (2-2-3-4:  2nd finger Tip)

depending on where you are going to next, or, what you just came from, etc. will help determine which is the "best" option.

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## Adrienne

hello, first time poster, long time mandolin lover, brand new player.

here's my (first) question. (i am sure there will be many more!)

is there a magical trick to getting the hang of barre chords. (I am VERY new to string instruments and i find that this is causing me the most trouble so far.) or is it just practice practice practice?  :Smile: 

thanks in advance guys!

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## Jim Broyles

The key to barre chords is cleanly stopping the strings which will be fretted by the barre finger which is generally the index finger. Usually, this requires positioning your thumb behind the neck to provide additional clamping power to your finger. The only way to get them cleanly all the time is to practice them.

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## mandroid

FWIW  ... 2245 as a 'G' based- A form, 
and 4224, a D based- E form 
& 2455 C based shape,- D [that one is a pinky barre, 4th finger holds down A&E STRINGS ]

 minor ..  Flatten the 3rd  ~ 2235 'Am', likewise 4223 Em, , 2355 Dm

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## Miked

I got used to playing an open A chord on guitar with just my index finger, so it has a pretty good bend at the joint.  It works well for the index to take care of the 22 in the 2245 (for me anyway). :Coffee:

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## DougC

The 'v' neck on my collings MT gives me some challenges in putting my thumb right behind the neck. I'm forced to have my thumb to the side of the neck. I manage to get barre chords but I do have a callus on my thumb! Anyone have this too?

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## Michael Cameron

> The 'v' neck on my collings MT gives me some challenges in putting my thumb right behind the neck. I'm forced to have my thumb to the side of the neck. I manage to get barre chords but I do have a callus on my thumb! Anyone have this too?


How about the "V" of the old Gibsons!? 

Painful.

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## mandognome

I hadn't used some of Niles' suggestions. Thought I was pretty smart for alternating beween the index finger barre and tip in different situations though.

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## Rob Gerety

There is a series of lessons on line by Brad Laird.  Some are free, some are very inexpensive.  He advocates a different approach to fingering bar chords that involves wrapping your thumb over the index a bit and then pushing your wrist away from the neck using your index and thumb tip as a fulcrum driving your pinky and ring finger down onto the fretboard.  Seems to work pretty well. Hard to describe but if you look at his video lessons you will see.  What do the experienced players here thing of Brad's approach to this issue?

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## Jim Broyles

I just went  to look  for  a video by Brad showing this technique and I couldn't find it.  From what you are describing however, I'd say that I have never and would never use my thumb to hold down my index finger to play a barre chord on the mandolin. I wouldn't stick my thumb behind the neck for first position soloing either, the way Brad shows it, so I guess there's always more than one way to skin a cat.

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## mandolirius

<What do the experienced players here thing of Brad's approach to this issue?>

That's the way I learned to do it. After a while, I didn't need to wrap my thumb over my index finger for extra pressure, but I did at first. There is almost no difference in my hand position for barre or chop chords. My palm is flush with the back of the neck for chop chords but comes away a bit for the barre position. I never put my thumb behind the neck.

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## the_mahout

Rob, good question and one I have been pondering lately.  I started out as a guitar player and am used to doing barre chords with the thumb and fore finger parallel, thumb locked straight underneath the neck and fore finger on the fret board.  My main mandolin is a Howard Morris A5 (sweet mandolin!) with a V-shaped neck.  The V-shaped neck seems to require a slightly different approach to executing barre chords.  Mandolin necks are obviously much thinner than guitar necks so wrapping the left hand is possible in executing barre chords.   I am looking forward to the café “Long Manes” weighing in on your question….  

/r
 Mike in KY

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## mando.player

Here is the video of Brad Laird clamping down with hie thumb.

Mike Marshall also shows this in his chord video.

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## Jim Broyles

Well, those guys certainly have nothing to prove to me, but I wouldn't do it.

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## bsmando

I haven't seen you guys mention the angle of the fingers to the frets. With the thumb on the back of the neck, your wrist is facing up which makes the fingers parallel to the frets. Thumb wrapped up higher, meeting or touching the first finger, angles the fingers to the frets and the wrist is pointing more towards the heel of the mandolin. The first way works well on a longer scale length  but the second seems more comfortable on the little mandolin neck.  I play it like Mike Marshall and Brad Laird. My hands are a lot smaller so my thumb doesn't wrap over so much. It does some, but I don't consciously press it down to the first finger. It might look like I do, but it is just part of the rhythmic squeezing.
Clear as mud, right?

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## Man of Wax

> is there a magical trick to getting the hang of barre chords. (I am VERY new to string instruments and i find that this is causing me the most trouble so far.) or is it just practice practice practice? 
> !


I have a sneaking suspicion that practice is _always_ the answer. When I began playing about six months ago, I couldn't bar a chord either. But practicing really does help. I also had an equipment problem: my mandolin had extremely high tension at the nut. In some ways, this may have been a good thing because it helped me develop strength in my fingers. But I got a better instrument, and that has certainly made it easier.

The point is, it really does come along. Keep playing the chord, even if it sounds terrible. Eventually you'll surprise yourself and play it well. Then you'll hit it more and more often until, eventually, you'll get it every time. One of the great things about regular practice is that you observe regular improvement.

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## thrax0831

Coming from a classical guitar background. I keep my left thumb in the middle of the neck and look to barcode with the outside surface of the index finger. Bones are flatter there to make the bar

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## DougC

From a perspective of anatomy and perhaps a violin technique book. (my wife teaches violin and I'm gonna ask her some questions about this). If the thumb is in the middle of the neck, then it is easy to have directly opposing thumb and fingers. That is to me sort of 'locking' your fore arm muscles and it is difficult to undo the 'clamping motion'.   I have a Collings mandolin with a 'v' shaped neck. That prohibits opposing thumb and fingers and I think the function there is that the fingers and fore arm muscles never 'lock' in that position. At least I feel a freedom of muscle movement all the way to my shoulder.  Not sure why classical guitarists play that way but I'm sure it has much to do with the flattened shape of the neck.

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## bradlaird

I got tickled reading all these barre chord comments. Pete Martin, you are right, I guess, in saying line your barre-ing finger up with the fret and use your thumb on the back. For me that just doesn't work. I think it brings up the important point that all mandolin player's hands and all mandolin necks are not the same. 

If I did that with my '85 Flatiron I would have a sore thumb. It has a seriously "veed" neck and when I play the barres that way it isn't long until my thumb is throbbing like #$#@!. 

Pete's a great player and I love his Texas style fiddle translated over to mandolin, but I just want to make the point that we are all built differently (thankfully!) and you do what works for you! Play it with your toes if that works for you!!!

Brad
http://www.bradleylaird.com/playthemandolin

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## Rob Gerety

I play guitar and so I am completely accustomed to forming bar chords in the standard manner on a guitar neck. But I have bought into Brad's method on mando where you are really only needing to "bar" the G and D strings.  I think it is rather elegant actually, much easier to do than the standard bar and it involves an economy of motion compared to a standard bar which is always a good thing.  Also, I am finding that the more I play mando the less I use my thumb for that shape - it just sort of sits there but I'm getting good tone without much pressure from my thumb. 

But for bar chords where you need to cover the D and A string for example, I have been using a standard bar with my thumb behind the neck.

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## lenf12

It was alluded to in a previous thread but bears some repeating. For those having problems with the barre shape chords on mandolin, consider having the action, particularly at the nut, lowered as far a you can without string buzzing. It will take a lot less hand strength to hold the barre shape and will make your overall playing much easier and enjoyable.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## bradlaird

> I think it is rather elegant actually, much easier to do than the standard bar and it involves an economy of motion compared to a standard bar which is always a good thing.  Also, I am finding that the more I play mando the less I use my thumb for that shape - it just sort of sits there but I'm getting good tone without much pressure from my thumb.


That's one of the big points I try to make. The thumb isn't there to "mash" or "squeeze" it just sits there touching the index fingertip offering some tactile stability and helping to define the fulcrum of the total arm, hand, finger geometry.

One of my basic points of opposition to the thumb on the back approach to mando barre chords is that most people tend to line it up parallel with the frets which rotates the fretting fingers similarly which, in turn, decreases the number of frets you can span without spreading the fingers. With an angled approach with the fingers it is just natural extension which allows you to reach higher frets. No sideways spreading. Well, not much.

Also, I see a lot of folks dropping their wrist to an almost 90 degree angle to get the thumb back there in the "proper" position and those tendons have to grind around the corner to do their work. So, another advantage to my (and others) higher thumb location is to help those puppet strings (tendons) do their job with less resistance.

There's my 1 cent worth... and worth every penny!
Brad Laird
http://www.bradleylaird.com/playthemandolin

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## Rob Gerety

Well, since we have you Brad - how do you finger the 4223 barre cord?

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## mandroid

Em barre ? index finger holds down the E & B  notes, Middle the G , ring the 2nd B.

From the E Maj the ring and middle both move, middle the low B, and the ring, the Maj 3rd,G#, 
index finger stays on the Root/1 and 5th of the chord.

.. move the whole thing up and it's Fm  so learning which one is the root , is good.

I would avoid making the tendons go around a bent wrist.. 

 :Popcorn:

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## journeybear

I make my barres as close to parallel to the frets as possible. I don't understand the angled approach but if that works for you, fine.  :Cool:  I'll find myself doing it unconsciously sometimes, but I've never thought about it that much. As I am fond of telling folks when asked, "How do you get your fingers between those tiny frets?" - I don't. It doesn't matter where your fingers are _below_ the fret, as long as you don't go _over_ the fret.  :Wink:  

My thumb is usually in a position not unlike Brad's in that video - that is, the neck is resting in the crook of my thumb, for chords _and_ leads - even though I clearly remember the Mel Bay book I got when starting out eons ago showing me the "proper" technique was to put the tip of the thumb against the middle of the neck. That felt awfully unnatural and I never really tried to pursue that method.  :Mandosmiley:  Occasionally, after playing for a while, my index finger's first knuckle grumbles from scrunching down to make those barres, and I'll relieve it by adding some pressure with my thumb for several seconds. But usually my fingers aren't stuck in one position long enough for this to be a critical consideration. :Wink:   For some odd reason, barre chords across the D and A strings (especially the 1224 E form) may lure my thumb to the back of the neck from time to time. I'm not sure why. Maybe just to use my hand's physiognomy differently for a bit and reduce any tendency toward cramping. It's a little mysterious, maybe just instinctive, and I really put very little thought into it; I just notice myself doing it sometimes.  :Confused:

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## Rob Gerety

What I meant to ask more specifically - and hopefully Brad will chime in - with the 4223 minor shape (I understand it moves up and down the neck) what does your hand position look like.  Do you form the "barre" with your index laying across the entire neck the way you would on guitar - or do you use the tip of the index to cover both the A and D strings?  Is your thumb placed directly behind the neck?  Or is it along the side? (pictures would probably be the best way to so this, eh?)

And somewhat off topic but related (sorry!) if you have a wide fretboard - 1 3/16 for example - can you use the tip of your index to cover two stings?  I assume so - I do it to form a two finger E major chord on guitar - but I am on the verge of buying a mando with a wider board like that and I'm just wondering what it will feel like - I'm used to 1 1/16 but also comfortable with the notion of adjusting to new things.

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## AlanN

> I clearly remember the Mel Bay book I got when starting out eons ago showing me the "proper" technique was to put the tip of the thumb against the middle of the neck.



Yeah, I think I still have that same old book (now with yellowed pages), with Mel Bay hisownself pictured playing a very clean-looking A-50. He has the thumb behind the middle of the neck very often (as though pushing a tack into the wall), for many chord shapes...No Monroe chop shape to be found!... I actually used that book quite a bit starting out. He had several 9th voicings in there, cool.

I use that thumb position, also the thumb hanging over the top edge of the neck, it all depends.

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## EdHanrahan

> ... if you have a wide fretboard ... can you use the tip of your index to cover two stings?


Good question!  With average fingers, I often cover 2 courses with a fingertip, but could NOT (open Em 0220) on a friend's wider Mid-Mo.  But I normally play that 4223 formation with a flat index finger anyway 'cause the strings spread as you go up the neck.

But I also can't fingertip 2 strings on guitar (your E major), so you may have no problem on a wider mando neck.

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## journeybear

> Yeah, I think I still have that same old book  ... No Monroe chop shape to be found!... I actually used that book quite a bit starting out. He had several 9th voicings in there, cool.


It's been too long, so I can't say for sure if the G chop chord was in there (7523) but the related F chord was (5301) so that's not a big leap. I may be remembering the Mel Bay mandolin chord book more than his "How To Play The Mandolin" book, which was too simplistic even for me as a beginner ...  :Laughing:  ... I vaguely recall being shown the G chop in college, though ...




> ... with the 4223 minor shape ... what does your hand position look like...


I use the same hand position I would if I were playing it 0223 - index barring the D and A strings and midde on the E string - and reach the ring finger over to the G string. With chords that require that kind of stretch, I tend to rotate my hand a bit more to make the reach easier, which may bring the thumb more toward the back of the neck.

I think it's important to learn alternative means of making chords. It keeps you from getting locked into one position, and helps you be more comfortable with the fretboard as you move up and down the neck. Sometimes you have to change chords pretty quickly, and it's good to have as many possibilities in your bag of tricks as possible.  :Wink:

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## AlanN

Yes, the 5-3-0-1 F shape was in there (Mel played it pinky on 5, middle on 3, index on 1). 

Now thinking back on it, I can't quite recall where I first saw the big G shape. Maybe a photo on an album jacket (but have been doing it forever).

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## journeybear

Yep. Still use that F shape all the time. Have to be careful to blunt the open A string right after strumming, as with any chord that incorporates open strings. Had a revelation when I realized that sliding the fingers up a fret while leaving the A string open made an F#m chord, still my favorite way to finger that.  :Mandosmiley:  And then leaving the E string open made a really cool F#m7  :Cool:  ... but I'm veering ...

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## mandroid

Back to #28, I use the pad, laid down, not the end, of the 1st joint of my index finger.

Use that alone, fretting both, for  melody on E minor key stuff.

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## Rob Gerety

> But I also can't fingertip 2 strings on guitar (your E major), so you may have no problem on a wider mando neck.


Well, truth be known, on guitar I probably am muting one or the other of the strings I'm covering depending on the situation - although I think sometimes I may also get a ring out of both.  Not sure.

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## bradlaird

> Well, since we have you Brad - how do you finger the 4223 barre cord?


I had to go play one to see how I do it... I noticed that on that shape I am backing the neck up with more of the base of the thumb and the heel of my hand. Not sure why. It just seems easier to me. Here's a still shot from one of my videos that shows my hand playing that chord.  



I am playing a borrowed Eastman in this shot (my mando was being re-fretted) and it has a pretty rounded neck shape, not like the V of my Flatiron, so it's possible I changed my method of "mashing" for that moment.

Brad Laird
http://www.bradleylaird.com/playthemandolin

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## Rob Gerety

Very helpful.  Thanks for posted that Brad.  It looks like you are using just the pad of your index to cover both strings on the barre. I had been playing that more like a guitar full bar and I am going to give your method a try. I don't like having to move my thumb back behind the neck for the traditional guitar barre.  Too much movement.  Its really slow.

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## Fretbear

The overall string spacing at the nut becomes critical when wanting to barre four strings (two pair) with a "squashed" fingertip. When chording they are more forgiving, but when you start to use them more for leads, it becomes necessary to be able to get in and out of them very smoothly and quickly. As a 1 & 5 interval they are handy for all kinds of applications and have both a modern as well as an ancient sound. I adjusted my string spacing specifically to be able to grab barres like that, without having to overly flatten my finger.

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## Rob Gerety

You can also roll a bit - I've been working on this technique playing guitar and it is gradually becoming second nature and once you get the technique down it is very fast and efficient.

That fretboard that Brad is using looks fairly wide - maybe 1 1/8? - and still he is getting good coverage with the one finger.

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## Pete Martin

> If I did that with my '85 Flatiron I would have a sore thumb. It has a seriously "veed" neck and when I play the barres that way it isn't long until my thumb is throbbing like #$#@!. 
> 
> 
> 
> Brad
> http://www.bradleylaird.com/playthemandolin




Good points Brad.  Makes me remember when I had a lot of problems with barre chords and then remembering that I had a neck with a very serious V shape.  All mandos I've owned since have had rounded necks.  One thing that helped me a lot was playing Texas style guitar and tenor guitar backup.  You are barring all the time on those things.  Makes the mando a piece of cake.

The point Brad makes is worth dwelling on:  we have to be detectives of our own playing and find things that work for us.  When you find something that works, watch yourself CLOSELY in a mirror from many different angles.  Make sure you are not using excess tension (which can cause overuse injury).  The advice of a good teacher can really help here as well.

Best of luck!!

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