# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  Rubber Grommets for the Mandolin

## Soupy1957

Nothing against the folks in here who sell the grommets for dampning the strings, but did you know that McMaster Carr sells them by the 100 count for just under $4.00?

"Item #9600K17:
Push-in Grommet 1/8" ID, 11/32" OD, 1/16" Thk for 3/16" Dia Panel Hole 
In stock at $3.54 per Pack 
This product is sold in Packs of 100"

-Soupy1957

----------


## MikeEdgerton

This isn't new information, you used to be able to get them at Radio Shack as well. Are they real 100% natural rubber? That's the latest requirement.

----------


## Charley wild

Oh no! Natural rubber, Mike? After I spent $1.98 for vinyl ones at Radio Shack? Now I gotta throw 'em away? :Laughing: 

What next?

----------


## JEStanek

Vinyl is a total tone killer.  I use only natural vulcanized leather.

You can drive to 20 miles to Costco to get a gallon of milk for $3.00 or go down the street to the 7-11 and pay $3.75.  Convienience is key, I guess. Convienience doesnot always equal cost effectiveness.

Jamie

----------


## Soupy1957

Again, it's not to take anything away from anyone in here who sells em..........just wondering if it was comparing apples to apples..........if so, 100 for THAT price, is more economical, is all.
They might be junk, for all I know........just wondered if anyone had tried em (knowing it was "old" news).

-Soupy1957

----------


## John Flynn

> Vinyl is a total tone killer.  I use only natural vulcanized leather.
> 
> You can drive to 20 miles to Costco to get a gallon of milk for $3.00 or go down the street to the 7-11 and pay $3.75.  Convienience is key, I guess. Convienience doesnot always equal cost effectiveness.
> 
> Jamie


Vulcanized LEATHER??? How do you do that?

----------


## barney 59

Got them at the hardware store. I bought 4 ,at top dollar.they were 8 cents a piece that way. I don't know for sure if they are rubber or vinyl but they are "rubbery" at least. They look like rubber and smell like rubber. How else do you tell-----does it really matter?

----------


## John Flynn

> Got them at the hardware store. I bought 4 ,at top dollar.they were 8 cents a piece that way. I don't know for sure if they are rubber or vinyl but they are "rubbery" at least. They look like rubber and smell like rubber. How else do you tell-----does it really matter?


No, it doesn't matter. Think about it. All they have to do is deaden the strings. I have see people do that with with rubber, vinyl, leather, shoe laces, yarn, velcro, felt and moleskin, not to mention that a lot of players rest their hands in that area and wind up deadening the strings that way. I've tried nearly all of those myself and it makes no difference. Plus, it's optional to deaden the strings at all and most people don't even bother.

----------


## barney 59

Never bothered before but I thought I would try it. I did think about and I thought "These things look like those deals they sell to dampen strings!"  I've seen people stuff leather under the tailpiece cover for years but these are extra cool-- you can slide them into patterns to make people think you know something they don't! You can move them between tunes! Kind of like a tennis player straightening out the strings after a big serve. The jury is still out as to whether I like them or not. They do eliminate some overtones but then I might like overtones. I'm still working on that.. My wife particularly likes them on the other side of the bridge. I was just wondering if there actually is a school of thought -vinyl vs natural rubber etc.-- after all, we can go on endlessly about various picks and hats.

----------


## Charley wild

Barney, Barney! Of COURSE there is a school of thought on rubber vs vinyl. Wait until the cosmics discover your post! :Laughing:  :Laughing:

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Actually it does matter if they come into contact with the lacquer on the mandolin. Vinyl will eat the lacquer. In a recent thread somebody suggested using them on the posts of armrests to protect the mandolin from the armrest bracket. Those should be 100% rubber and Steve Stone says his "Steve's Silencers" are 100% rubber. As far as using them as string dampeners, you could use a wad of Kleenex (or any generic brand) rolled up and braided through the strings and it would have the same effect as any of these grommets. You can also put a strip of leather beneath the strings on a Gibson style tailpiece and get the same effect, just make sure it hangs a little over the lip of the tailpiece. On the Waverly Cloud type tailpieces used on old Martins and a few others I always stick a strip of felt to the bottom of the tailpiece cover, it does the same thing. That doesn't work well on the sliding Gibson type of tailpiece but some put felt under their Gibson style tailpieces. Some folks like the way the grommets look, I don't (personally). You will however be able to play alot faster if you do have rubber grommets on your mandolin, that's for sure.

----------


## Randolph

John,
Regarding Jamie's comment about Vulcanized Leather...there are two ways of obtaining this material, one method is inherently more dangerous than the other, but it is more directly related to Vulcan.  The dangerous method involves running across a very warm lava bed with very thick leather soled shoes.  If you make it acroos the lava without having your feet burst into flames...well, there you have it, vulcanized leather.  Not surprisingly, this product is extremely rare and extremely expensive.  I found a source on the island of Hawaii, but even grommet size pieces retail for $35 apiece, plus $8S&H.  The simple way of vulcanizing leather is to simply throw a side of pig on the barbecue, and the cracklin's, though mighty poor for deadening strings, sure do taste good! :Smile:

----------


## barney 59

So after posting a bit ago I was playing "How High The Moon" which is apparently where my grommet is after breaking a string! Would vinyl do that? I don't think so! The advantages of buying a box of 100 as opposed to 4 is now perfectly clear to me. 
Faster? Faster!  Do you prefer the Parelli over the Michelin grommets? Does a factory authorized grommet installer fly in to install 200mph grommets on the higher end mandolins?

----------


## JEStanek

> Vulcanized LEATHER??? How do you do that?


You take punches out of a Vulcan's outfit, like this one, and place them in your Vulcan Mandolin.  16 strings are so much more logical...


Jamie

Ediot (idiot-get it)- Note the preference for large triangular plectrums in the center of the costume...  Dawg approved!

----------


## Mike Bromley

You guys are merciless, the rampant out-of-control twisting of context, the poo-poo-ing of gauche, out-of-style damping methods, the purveyors of vulcanized bullfeathers, the quashers of slim hope.  For shame.  All for the love of grommets, or total absence thereof.

Me, I think they're cooler than cool.  Damper than damp.  And like Mike says, they instantly add at LEAST 50 bpm to my already blistering speediness.

But I digress...

----------


## Soupy1957

> Actually it does matter if they come into contact with the lacquer on the mandolin.


Am I missing something here?  "My" strings on the mando are suspended in air from the saddle to the tailpiece.  How are the dampners gonna make contact with the lacquer?  

-Soupy1957

----------


## Tim2723

Well, they're not, unless you have an unusual mandolin.  But the grommets are not likely made of Vinyl anyway; that would be a poor choice for grommets in the first place.  Most of them are made from Neoprene or EPDM.

----------


## Scott Tichenor

> Am I missing something here?-Soupy1957


Please, no need to get down on your knees to beg us to make fun of all these threads you start.  :Smile:

----------

Kevin Stueve

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Alright, that wasn't fair, now I have to clean off my keyboard and monitor and I got a little diet coke on the guys in the next cube.

----------


## AlanN

:Laughing:  :Laughing:

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> *To Quote Soupy* How are the dampners gonna make contact with the lacquer?


And the answer is to simply read the message:




> *To Quote Mike* In a recent thread somebody suggested using them on the posts of armrests to protect the mandolin from the armrest bracket. Those should be 100% rubber...


Because vinyl will eat away a lacquer finish as per this article (linked above as well) on Frank Ford's www.frets.com.

----------


## Tim2723

Mike, just out of curiosity, can you or one of the members enlighten me?  Where did all this concern over Vinyl come from?  In 40 years playing I have never encountered a Vinyl product intended for direct, prolonged contact with a musical instrument.  In fact, the only application I can think of is the covering of an instrument case, where it doesn't contact the instrument at all.  In 25 years of rubber manufacturing, I have made grommets out of Vinyl exactly once for a customer with a specialized requirement, and I've never made them from natural rubber.

What was the Vinyl 'thing' that caused all the problems?

----------


## Bill Snyder

There are several things that fall into the "vinyl" category that might come into contact with an instrument. The "rubber" coating on some wall hooks (might be used to hang a mandolin) is a type of vinyl. Anything with plasticizers in it can wreak havoc on some finishes. I received a guitar wrapped in bubble wrap a few years ago and even after cleaning and polishing you could see everywhere the bubble wrap came into contact with the finish. Fortunately I had not paid much for the guitar.

----------


## Steve Ostrander

I use the little leather strips. I find that they don't dissapear when I restring like the little rubber doo-dads.  Of course, they must be 100% real leather. Hyde of the Wild Nauga is unacceptable...

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> Mike, just out of curiosity, can you or one of the members enlighten me?  Where did all this concern over Vinyl come from?...


This will be third time I've linked to this article in this thread.

LINK on Vinyl and Lacquer

I've seen a vinyl strap take the finish right off the top of a Martin mandolin (I bought the mandolin, the strap was in the case laying over the top) and I cringe whenever I see bubble wrap straight out on laquer because I had that mar a guitar finish as well on a guitar I stored for shipment. If it hasn't happened up to now feel lucky.

----------


## Tim2723

> There are several things that fall into the "vinyl" category that might come into contact with an instrument. The "rubber" coating on some wall hooks (might be used to hang a mandolin) is a type of vinyl. Anything with plasticizers in it can wreak havoc on some finishes. I received a guitar wrapped in bubble wrap a few years ago and even after cleaning and polishing you could see everywhere the bubble wrap came into contact with the finish. Fortunately I had not paid much for the guitar.



OK, that's what I was after.  The plasticizers (commonly dioctylpthalate and dicotlysebecate) are volatile and can cause some problems certainly, but I wouldn't expect that too many products were made with the intention of prolonged contact.  In the article above there was direct contact for long periods.  I was left to wonder how long that player in the article left his capo on to cause the damage.

It seems to me that the culprit is the degree of exposure, rather than the Vinyl itself.  Nevertheless, many rubber and plastic compounds use these same plasticizers, and should be avoided.

----------


## Hal Loflin

Just FYI...The total for the pack of grommets from McMasters is $8.34 once $4.80 UPS Ground shipping is added ($3.54 + $4.80). More for shipping than the actual product.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

The problem comes with prolonged contact, it might be hurried along by environmental factors as well. I'm sure that someone might be able to find the exact chemical that causes the reaction and I'm sure that there is a chance that all lacquers and all plastics might not react, the problem is that some do and there's no sense in taking a chance. The Martin mandolin I noted was from the 60's and I have no idea how long the strap had been there but the laquer finish had a perfect line that was just gone where the strap had been laying. The guitar that I was dealing with was a Red label yamaha from the late 60's as well. Perhaps we've advanced in the last 40 some years, I'm just not willing to be the test case.

----------


## Scott Tichenor

Will vinyl come in contact with an instrument? Will grommet pricing come under scrutiny and ultimately federal regulation? Will Soup1957 find the answer to his question? 

Stay tuned for another exciting episode of, _As The Grommet Turns_!

----------


## AlanN

> Just FYI...The total for the pack of grommets from McMasters is $8.34 once $4.80 UPS Ground shipping is added ($3.54 + $4.80). More for shipping than the actual product.


And isn't it better to go with a fellow mando-nerd for this type of thing than some anon. corporation? Even if you may be out a few cents. I think so.

----------


## Mike Bromley

> Alright, that wasn't fair, now I have to clean off my keyboard and monitor and I got a little diet coke on the guys in the next cube.


Like vinyl in contact with nitrocellulose?  Dintcha know that Aspartame is toxic?

And, nitrogen being as reactive as it is, and in compound with cellulose, makes a dandy explosive powder...for those smokers who at one time or another stuck a cigarette under their string and had it burn down to the NC, the popping and sizzling sounds were a bit unnerving.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Unfortunately sugar is more toxic to me  :Cool:

----------


## Charley wild

> Will vinyl come in contact with an instrument? Will grommet pricing come under scrutiny and ultimately federal regulation? Will Soup1957 find the answer to his question? 
> 
> Stay tuned for another exciting episode of, _As The Grommet Turns_!


And will the thread diversion gremlins strike Soupy again? 

Seriously, I've been aware of the bubble wrap problem for some time. And I'll take the advice of some on the thread if I ever buy an armrest. I'll use rubber grommets. Why take a chance? There's no huge expense involved.

----------


## Mike Bunting

I thought that Grommet was a muppet!

----------


## Tim2723

> This will be third time I've linked to this article in this thread.


Sorry for that, but thanks for the effort.  I keep forgetting that you have to mouse over the text to find the links.  I don't know how put them in like that.

On second thought, I'm probably not the best person to comment on how _NOT_ to damage a mandolin.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> ...On second thought, I'm probably not the best person to comment on how _NOT_ to damage a mandolin.




OK, that's twice in this thread. I have to go get another roll of paper towels.  :Laughing:

----------


## Tom C

I just chew a piece of Bazooka Bubble gum and stick it on the strings. 10 cents total.  :Smile:

----------


## JEStanek

Gromit is a plasticine dog (not a Muppet) created by Nick Park.  He plays a mean mandolin too.


Jamie

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Gromit is a plasticine dog (not a Muppet) created by Nick Park.  He plays a mean mandolin too.
> 
> 
> Jamie


I stand corrected.  :Smile:

----------


## barney 59

> There are several things that fall into the "vinyl" category that might come into contact with an instrument. The "rubber" coating on some wall hooks (might be used to hang a mandolin) is a type of vinyl. Anything with plasticizers in it can wreak havoc on some finishes. I received a guitar wrapped in bubble wrap a few years ago and even after cleaning and polishing you could see everywhere the bubble wrap came into contact with the finish. Fortunately I had not paid much for the guitar.


I've shipped instruments wrapped in bubble wrap and also received them as well. I've never had a problem or a complaint but I will modify my packageing I suppose now that I have a heads up.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

You may never have a problem but you might and that's why I now use a soft paper towel layer between the instrument and the vinyl wrap.

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

Howdya' do that Jamie ?? - those things intrigue me every time !.

   I think that the 'worry' over all things vinyl around instruments, came from the Guitar world. I seem to remember either an article or a pic. at least, in *Guitarist* Magazine. It had to do with the rubber resting pads on Guitar stands.The pic.(which i certainly DID see),showed the removal of a patch of the finish on a Guitar neck which had been caused by reaction with a component within the vinyl pad. I immediately covered the pads on my stands with 1/4" thick felt (Aircraft grade !).
   Anyway it seems the news spread & vinyl has been a 'suspect' material for a while now. Do instrument stand makers still use it,or have they changed to a 'safe' material ?.It would be interesting to know,as i can't imagine any stand maker selling a stand which is going to make mush out of a mega-buck Guitar,
                                    Ivan  :Grin:

----------


## mandroid

Never mind the Rubber ones ...  Cheese, Grommet ?   :Wink: 

 :Popcorn:

----------


## DougC

O.K. Now you've got me concerned - Mandolin Cafe consumer reports question here. Is my 'On Stage' brand guitar stand full of the bad stuff? Are my 'String Swing' instrument hangers all toxic? Yikes! 


I think cork would be a great material for string dampening.

----------


## Tim2723

Well, if you're using those products for long-term display of your instruments - that is, that they've been in contact with them for prolonged periods - and have seen no problem, then there's probably little cause for concern.  It also depends on the finish of your instruments.  

Outside of the polymer testing laboratory, it's very difficult to tell exactly what might be in a 'rubber' material.  The Vinyl plastics often, but not always, have a couple of telltale characteristics. They are often smooth and glossy, they can have a thin oily surface film that never really seems to wipe away, and, if very new, can have a distinct odor.  The plasticizers used to make them soft and pliable evaporate out of the plastic over time.  They are what gives the 'new car smell' to an automobile's interior.

Remember that the problem cases center around instruments with delicate, traditional finishes, and involve things like plastic guitar straps from the 60's and Bubble Pack that is used as a general purpose packaging material for everything under the sun.  The music world seems to be aware of the problem, so I would think (or at least like to think) that modern manufactures are sensitive to the issue.  But I still wouldn't bet a valuable instrument on it.

And given that there are reports of varnish being disturbed even by things like cork, it would suggest that chemical interaction is not always the culprit.  It appears that varnish can be harmed by a lot of things under the right circumstances, excessive pressure being suspect.  This is why I question some of the observations in the cited article.

----------


## DougC

> And given that there are many reports of varnish being disturbed even by cork, it would suggest that chemical interaction is not always the culprit.  It appears that varnish can be harmed by a lot of things under the right circumstances, excessive pressure being suspect.  This is why I question some of the observations in the cited article.


I agree that pressure and heat are the big concerns. I repair violins and most of the damage to the finish is from the clamp that holds the chin rest to the instrument. It's the same device as mandolin arm rests and under the clamp part that touches the instrument is cork, sometimes felt on older instruments. The pressure from the clamp damages the finish. The felt is sometimes imbeded into the finish from too much pressure.

----------


## JEStanek

> Howdya' do that Jamie ?? - those things intrigue me every time !.



Photoshop.  That's a particularly famous mandolin he's got his paws on too.  

Gromit says the best cheese grommets come from the moon.  It's a Grand Day Out if you want to get some.  Wallace has invented a new Back Plate Gaurd (Tone Guard is a liscensed product) out of old knitting needles.  Preston does the bending and Shaun provides the woollen pads.  You can get those at Wendolene's Yarn Shop for £40.

Jamie

----------


## Ole Joe Clark

If you think this thread is nuts, you should read the one on the Martin forum (UMGF) in the technical section about plastic binding on guitars.

----------


## CES

> On second thought, I'm probably not the best person to comment on how _NOT_ to damage a mandolin.


 :Grin:  :Laughing:  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## gregjones

> Never mind the Rubber ones ...  Cheese, Grommet ?


I _usually_ understand.  This time you're just gonna have to color me stupid.

Maybe, if I spent more time in the shadow of a volcano.......

----------


## Tim2723

> If you think this thread is nuts, you should read the one on the Martin forum (UMGF) in the technical section about plastic binding on guitars.


I don't think anyone should take this subject lightly.  There are some very serious concerns about plastic and rubber compounds in relation to musical instruments.  Some of the information in the music world at large is suspect from an observational standpoint - which is to say, being right for the wrong reasons - but as a polymer technology professional, I would never suggest that anyone take this lightly.

----------


## JEStanek

> Never mind the Rubber ones ...  Cheese, Grommet ?





> I _usually_ understand.  This time you're just gonna have to color me stupid.
> 
> Maybe, if I spent more time in the shadow of a volcano.......


See my earlier post #38 on Gromit (he's the dog in the British stop motion animation duo Wallace and Gromit.  People have been spelling his name Grommet like the string dampeners.  

The cheese reference is to the short film by Nick Park Wallace and Gromit's Grand Day Out where Wallace wants to go on holiday so they make a rocket and go to the moon because Wallace LOVES cheese.  They go, eat moon cheese then come home with some excitement along the way.  Check out Wallaceandgromit.com for other details.  Great films with fun soundtracks.  Very British.

Nick Park did the animation for the commercials for the Sealy (I think) mattress counting sheep and soem for Burger King too.  His is a recognizable style.  In my last post, it was full of references to A Grand Day Out and another short A Close Shave.

Sorry to have been a bit of an obscurist.  Check out the shorts (30 min each) or the Feature Film Wallace and Gromit and the Curse of the Wererabbit.  Highly recomended for adults and kids.

Jamie

----------


## mandroid

It is admittedly a Joke explanation, but Gregjones is  often on the road  in his truck, and so may be excused if " the culture " passes him by .. 

From film dialog,   Wallace : asking question ...  "Cheese , Gromit ? "

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108598/ 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104361/

 :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:

----------


## man dough nollij

> I _usually_ understand.  This time you're just gonna have to color me stupid.
> 
> Maybe, if I spent more time in the shadow of a volcano.......


Probably just a brain cloud...

----------


## wogster

> Well, if you're using those products for long-term display of your instruments - that is, that they've been in contact with them for prolonged periods - and have seen no problem, then there's probably little cause for concern.  It also depends on the finish of your instruments.  
> 
> Outside of the polymer testing laboratory, it's very difficult to tell exactly what might be in a 'rubber' material.  The Vinyl plastics often, but not always, have a couple of telltale characteristics. They are often smooth and glossy, they can have a thin oily surface film that never really seems to wipe away, and, if very new, can have a distinct odor.  The plasticizers used to make them soft and pliable evaporate out of the plastic over time.  They are what gives the 'new car smell' to an automobile's interior.
> 
> Remember that the problem cases center around instruments with delicate, traditional finishes, and involve things like plastic guitar straps from the 60's and Bubble Pack that is used as a general purpose packaging material for everything under the sun.  The music world seems to be aware of the problem, so I would think (or at least like to think) that modern manufactures are sensitive to the issue.  But I still wouldn't bet a valuable instrument on it.
> 
> And given that there are reports of varnish being disturbed even by things like cork, it would suggest that chemical interaction is not always the culprit.  It appears that varnish can be harmed by a lot of things under the right circumstances, excessive pressure being suspect.  This is why I question some of the observations in the cited article.


Yes that "new car smell" is mostly toxic gas.....   :Wink: 

Many things can affect a finish, various chemicals can interact with it, moisture is a big culprit as well, I would think that mechanical damage is also possible, pressure is mostly mechanical damage as two surfaces move slightly against each other.  This is why many violinists don't use chin rests at all, but put a cloth handkerchief between their chin and the instrument.  Damaging the finish on a $100 kids violin, no biggie, damaging the finish on a 400 year old instrument valued at $10,000,000, by a $10 chin rest, uh, not something you really want to do.  :Disbelief:

----------


## Coffeecup

> I've seen people stuff leather under the tailpiece cover for years but these are extra cool-- you can slide them into patterns to make people think you know something they don't!



Do it with grommets - graphic equaliser?



Do Gromits really damage mandolins?  I blame the penguins.

----------


## Tim2723

> Yes that "new car smell" is mostly toxic gas.....


At one time you could buy dioctyl-pthalate in a can.  Spray it on your dashboard and your car smells like new.  No kidding.  People would do that.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Manny, Moe, and Jack sell a "New Car Smell" spray. It really doesn't smell like a new car but it's pleasant.

----------


## Tim2723

Yeah, but it's not exactly the same stuff.  The public can't get their hands on the dioctyl plasticizers anymore.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Good because I don't like anything I can't pronounce.

----------


## barney 59

> Do it with grommets - graphic equaliser?
> 
> 
> 
> Do Gromits really damage mandolins?  I blame the penguins.


Someone wants to try your mandolin--"Yah o.k. !-but don't mess with my levels."

----------


## Steevarino

"Manny, Moe, and Jack.  The three best friends your car ever had".

Man, I used to just love my Pep Boys t-shirt.  Now it seems that most of my t-shirts have mandolins and/or guitars on them.

Anyone know where I can get a grommet t-shirt...?  Not a toxic one, just something nice and inert, that won't soften my skin if I leave it on too long . . .

----------


## John H.

Hey Steve,
I used to have a Wallace and Gromit T shirt years ago, I don't remember where I got it.
How could have I missed this thread,I got a bag of 'em from Mc-Carr last month. Got enough grommits to last 5 lifetimes!! Got more grommits than mandos! 
BTW Jamie, I really like my grommmits with a litte Wenslydale, been eatin' those little buggers like m&m's.

You's guys are a riot!  :Laughing: 
John Hudak

----------


## John H.

Btw, Soupy, how is The Loar opening up?

John

----------


## gregjones

Now I see why I missed it.  Film/movies.  The last time I went to a movie house I saw "The Right Stuff".  1983.  26 years ago.  That, and I don't have a TV in the truck.  

I hear folks talk about a lot of stuff that I don't know anything about.  Once they explain it to me it basically has the same  ol' Grace Slick/tree relationship.

I get Cheryl Netflix to keep her occupied while I'm on the road.  Once in awhile I sneak something in her queue so it will be there when I get home.   That takes careful timing or she'll send it back before I get there.

She is getting tired of David Allen Coe at Billy Bob's.  I'm not.

I think------"I need a little time off"..............(DAC)

----------


## CES

> Do Gromits really damage mandolins?  I blame the penguins.


It's not the penguins, silly, it's the squirrels...those guys are up to something... :Laughing:

----------


## CES

> but as a polymer technology professional.


Not even basketball season yet, but I'm already hearing Dicky V screaming that you're a "PTPer"... :Crying:

----------


## Russ Partain

I actually tried the grommets.  They did dampen the overtones of the tail piece.  THe problem was that they too dampened the volume as well.  My advice is to attack the source of the problem and no the symptoms.  I got a James tail piece and got rid of the overtones as well as the grommets.  My volume is back.

----------


## AlanN

My Gilchrist t/p dampens the overtones, too; hence, no need for the grommets. Before I installed that t/p, I used the grommets. I didn't notice a volume difference.

Chacun a son gout.

----------


## JEStanek

The James Tailpiece uses the grommets within the tailpiece itself.  I'm not sure how the different placement of the grommets affected your overall volume.  I'm not saying I don't believe you didn't hear a difference, I'm just saying I don't understand it.  Maybe when you changed the tailpiece out the bridge was refit better when placed bac on the instrument?

Jamie

----------


## MikeEdgerton

The Gibson's are shipped with a piece of leather under the strings in the tailpiece. They don't have the issue that the grommet's are there to fix. I don't see how the grommets would affect volume or tone (other than supressing overtones), they are beyond the spot where it should make a difference.

----------


## Tim2723

Well, since grometts, leather, what have you, eliminate sympathetic vibration by absorbing and re-directing energy, and since energy is at the source of volume, then reducing energy would reduce volume.  But the amount of energy is very small in this case, so the overall reduction in volume would probably be noticed only from the player's perspective.  And of course, the sympathetic vibrations are part of the overall sound of the instrument, so removing them would affect the 'tone' of the instrument.  Whether that affect is desireable or not is another question.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

That redirection of energy takes pace beyone the point where the srting touches the bridge, the point where the energy is transferred to the top. It should have no effect.

----------


## Tim2723

Yes, of course.  But the energy is still there, that's why we hear the sympathetic vibrations.  Without redirecting the energy, that sound energy would be noticed at close proximity.  Since it is unamplified by the sound chamber (or at least very inefficiently so), it wouldn't contribute to the overall volume greatly, and probably not beyond the player's perspective under most conditions.  The player might notice it, but no one else would. If you stretch a string between two points without a sound chamber and pluck it, it still makes a very faint sound because it vibrates air.  But the sound is very faint indeed.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

That's the point. The bridge is the point where that vibration is transferred down to the soundboard. What happens beyond that shouldn't affect (in my mind anyway) anything. The sympathtic vibrations from the bridge to the tailpiece is its own animal.

----------


## wogster

> Well, since grometts, leather, what have you, eliminate sympathetic vibration by absorbing and re-directing energy, and since energy is at the source of volume, then reducing energy would reduce volume.  But the amount of energy is very small in this case, so the overall reduction in volume would probably be noticed only from the player's perspective.  And of course, the sympathetic vibrations are part of the overall sound of the instrument, so removing them would affect the 'tone' of the instrument.  Whether that affect is desireable or not is another question.


I don't know about on mandolins but on violins they often use a felt doughnut, on the E string, for similar reasons.  Even if you use the grommets perhaps they are only needed on some strings, like the E string, has anyone tried using them on some strings, but not others.

----------


## Tim2723

The grometts or other types of 'supressors' used on the mandolin are intended to stop the vibrations of the short lengths of strings between the bridge and the tailpiece.  These can vibrate sympathetically with the main length of string and cause an unwanted extra set of tones.  Not exactly the same as the violin, where a string sleeve is often placed on the E string in order to reduce its energy input to the bridge itself.  It's not so much a similar reason, but it is a similar technique.

----------


## pickloser

Where is the empirical research?  We know nothing about the effect of any of these items on finishes or sound if there is no carefully controlled double blind testing of these phenomena.  I simply cannot accept anecdotal evidence as probative.  

 :Chicken: 
Oh, and it's good to see the Joker is back.

----------


## Coffeecup

> I simply cannot accept anecdotal evidence as probative.


I simply cannot accept that somebody requires evidence before forming an opinion.    :Grin:

----------


## Steven Stone

My personal experience after placing grommets on many instruments during the last seven years is quite different than Tim's.

I have found that grommets actually INCREASE the volume of a mandolin because they eliminate out of phase sympathetic vibrations which reduce overall volume. In some cases grommets also make it easier to accurately tune a mandolin since out of phase sound can fool a tuner and make it more difficult for it to lock in on the actual sound from the string itself.

And although Gibson does use leather and or cork under their stock stamped metal tailpiece, Silencers still reduce the tendency of the strings to vibrate in sympathy.

Also I find that placing grommets in the headstock reduces out of phase sympathetic ringing that can have a negative impact on volume and tone. On some instruments the headstock can actually generate more out of phase sympathetic vibrations than the tailpiece region.

----------

Paul Statman

----------


## AlanN

> Also I find that placing grommets in the headstock reduces out of phase sympathetic ringing that can have a negative impact on volume and tone.


For me, the grommets get in the way in this area. I take a small rope-like piece of leather and weave through the strings up there.

----------


## mandroid

_Tonitis_ takes care of my hearing a lot of tiny overtones..

----------


## MikeEdgerton

I don't buy the sound increase any more than the sound decrease. It's beyond where it should make a difference and a mandolin isn't a loud speaker and the in phase cancelling concept doesn't fly for me, YMMV.

----------


## Tim2723

While Steve's explanation of phase cancelling is possible, and even demonstrable, it's not in all likelyhood that probable.  True phase cancellation requires very specific manipulation of frequencies that is probably not commonly present in the chaotic environment of string lengths found in mandolins. But I do agree with his observation.  He and I are describing different facets the same phenomenon.  While I'm talking about undampened strings releasing energy to the air, he's talking about the redirection of that energy to the overall system through a different path.

Honestly though, this is more physics trivia than it is practical application for mandolinists.

----------


## DougC

> I don't buy the sound increase any more than the sound decrease. It's beyond where it should make a difference and a mandolin isn't a loud speaker and the in phase cancelling concept doesn't fly for me, YMMV.


It's the perception that counts here. You'll hear more sound related to the pitch with the odd signals dampened out. The tuner will show the 'improvement'. 
Acoustic instruments are very much like speakers because they convert mechanical vibrations into sound. The good news is that a good instrument will be responsive to this level of detail. 
Cellists deal with the 'wolftone' problem by dampening the bridge and / or top plate. It's part of a 'design flaw' in the instrument. I've been moving the grommets around to see if there is any difference in dampening effect and I think a mandolin is too small to show any change.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Perception becomes reality, but that doesn't make a stringed instrument behave like an audio speaker, they just aren't the same. I do agree though that it is perception. If a person believes it is louder, it will be louder to them. If a person believes it kills to the sound, then it kills the sound in their mind. Harmonic overtones are real and you can kill them with a folded up kleenex or rubber grommets or whatever. That doesn't mean that it affects the rest of the instrument either way.

----------


## DougC

Has anyone looked at different tailpieces with regard to the string length after the bridge? Some types of mandolins have the string attach at the edge of the instrument and others seem to have a short distance to the tailpiece. I figure if there is more string between the bridge and tailpiece, the more sympathetic vibrations might occur. There are very good instruments of both types so this must be trivial huh?

----------


## jim_n_virginia

> For me, the grommets get in the way in this area. I take a small rope-like piece of leather and weave through the strings up there.


This is what I do also ....
And also you gotta ask yourself  WWBD (what would bill do)

Can't help but think ole Bill would choose the leather over the rubber.  :Grin:

----------


## Charley wild

Usually I jump into these types of threads just ready to go! But this issue is a ho-hummer for me. I've tried them and didn't really hear much if any difference at all. It's nothing I can get to worked up about. I'm not scoffing it's just a non-issue to me.

----------


## AlanN

O behave

----------


## Philippe Bony

(again) Bill James tailpiece...
 :Cool:

----------

Paul Statman

----------


## Mike Bunting

> (again) Bill James tailpiece...


Yes.

----------


## tipptoggy

Grommits seem to be way over priced on Ebay. I cut up an old windscreen wiper and it works really well, I made easy to fit 1cm sections. It cuts out the harmonics of the strings behind the bridge, not much use in a session but is supposed to be good for recording. It cost me zero and I still have about 1 foot of the rubber left, the windscreen windshield I think in North America)  wiper rubber comes with grooves in it  and it fits real snug between the strings. Looks cool too, kinda gothic....

----------


## tipptoggy

It might have an appreciable effect if you have a  piezo pick up fitted, the top of the mandolin vibrates and this causes resonance in the free strings behind the bridge, it goes through the amp and builds up  energy in the room until it hits a feedback frequency. 

Effectively grommits turn  the floating bridge into a pin bridge.. but I'd like to see some acoustic evidence to back any of these thoughts up.

----------


## Giorgio5555

> No, it doesn't matter. Think about it. All they have to do is deaden the strings. I have see people do that with with rubber, vinyl, leather, shoe laces, yarn, velcro, felt and moleskin, not to mention that a lot of players rest their hands in that area and wind up deadening the strings that way. I've tried nearly all of those myself and it makes no difference. Plus, it's optional to deaden the strings at all and most people don't even bother.


Vinyl... perhaps silicon grommets as well. Are we talkin' 1/8" holes here?

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Watch vinyl grommets on instruments with a lacquer finish. Vinyl and lacquer don't coexist well. If you happen to drop one in a case and not realize it you could end up with serious finish issues.

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musi...nyl/vinyl.html

----------


## Giorgio5555

> For me, the grommets get in the way in this area. I take a small rope-like piece of leather and weave through the strings up there.


I haven't tried leather but I weave a 1/2" felt strip, 3 passes to hold it. 

I might try the leather. 

The felt also helps with tailpiece cover rattle.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Gibson used leather and felt inside the tailpiece under the strings. Basically anything that can damp the harmonics will do. The little grommets came into favor many years back but the problem existed before they were commonly used.

----------


## pops1

I think grommets started being used as cast tailpieces came out and there was no cover or place for the leather, or felt, to dampen unseen from the tailpiece.

----------


## B381

> My wife particularly likes them on the other side of the bridge.


Buwahahaha.....mine too.

----------

Rick Jones

----------

