# Music by Genre > Jazz/Blues Variants, Bossa, Choro, Klezmer >  Transposing tunes composed for horns

## Jim Nollman

I've been playing a bit of 1920's era trad Jazz lately. Not being a facile reader, I learn tunes by repetition using the amazing slow downer (ASD).

 So many of these tunes were recorded in keys favored by horn players, especially  Bb and Eb. Being primarily an old time music player, I am new to these keys. Its getting a bit easier to play in these horn keys as I expand my jazz repertoire, but remains a worthy challenge to my improv fluidity. 

Today I tried something new, using ASD to lower the Bix classic, singing the Blues
From Eb to D. Doing that, I learned the changes and started developing lines and phrases immediately. It was a breath of fresh air. 

I'm curious what experiences the rest of you might share regarding the question: do I transpose or not?

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DavidKOS, 

James Vwaal

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## Bill McCall

Eb and Bb are pretty common keys for jazz and swing.  I would/did learn them.

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DavidKOS

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## Jim Bevan

I have long wished that someone would transpose the Charlie Parker Omnibook into G.  :Smile:

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## James Vwaal

I hear you, Jim, but sorry that I can't help you. If a song is in Bb or Eb, my trio pretty much plays it in that key since I am usually the one singing the lyrics and flat keys fit my vocal range better than the sharps. Bb, in particular, is a pretty cool key and I actually enjoy doing tunes in it.

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DavidKOS

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## stevojack665

If you're playing jazz, you're going to have to learn to play in those keys. A few reasons, a bunch of the repertoire is recorded in those keys and transcribed in those keys. If you're going to jam with other folks who know those tunes, they will play them in those keys. Asking them to transpose for you isn't going to go over well, unless you're a singer and that tune isn't in your range.
So, the long answer is get used to playing in closed positions where you have few or no open strings. 
The quick answer, and one this jazz mandolin player uses (which I'm sure some will bash me for) is a capo. Buy one. use it. Don't give a damn what other people think. 
Capo at 1st fret and play in A and D. 
That doesn't mean not to learn to play closed position and develop a facility for playing in Bb and Eb. That will help you all over the finger board. 
In the meantime, you can still rely on what you already know to play those tunes now with the help of a capo. 
Spend time after you play with the capo and play without it to see what the differences are and learn about closed position playing. That in itself is an instructive lesson.
Most of all, have fun!

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DavidKOS, 

Jim Nollman

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## Pete Martin

A friend of mine always says "there are no hard keys, just unfamiliar ones".  He's right.  If you spend time in a key, you will get comfortable there.

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DavidKOS, 

ralph johansson, 

stevojack665

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## mandocrucian

Jazz players get *so smug* about playing in the flat keys. 

But face it, Bb, Eb, Ab etc. is about the same for horn players as playing in C, G, D and/or A on a stringed instrument such as fiddle/mandolin.  Let's see some of them hornies whip through an unfamiliar tune in concert E or B without some fumbling.

Gb/F# is *not* a _"friendly key"_ for C flute fingering.

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DavidKOS, 

Jess L., 

Jim Garber

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## Don Stiernberg

One of the main things that make the mandolin the greatest instrument in the world is it's symmetrical layout. By virtue of being tuned in fifths, patterns are consistent up, down and all around the fretboard. Learn a G major scale with open strings, you need only repeat that pattern up one string to play the D scale..up another yields A.
    Learn an A major scale using all fretted notes(no open strings).Now you have just learned all your major scales(!) as relocating that scale pattern to another fret yields a scale in another key..
      What does this mean concerning what key we play tunes in? Once one familiarizes oneself with patterns of tonality on the fretboard, aren't all keys accessible, same level of challenge? I think the answer is yes, and definitely easier to achieve on mandolin than other instruments.
        Concerning flat keys, I've found hanging out with Eb, Bb, F, Ab that they actually end up making more sense and offering more possibilities for improv ideas.
      Johnny Gimble was right though, "There aint nothing natural about B natuaral".. :Smile: 
     And Jethro often moved things to sharp keys, Jitterbug Waltz from Eb to D for example. But also said "get in one spot and milk it for all it's worth.." which I took to mean learn those closed fretted positions up and down the neck and live there...saves jumping around a lot.
         Yes there are tone differences between open and fretted strings, you'll want to have all of it at your disposal.
      Turn in your capos!
         The mandolin is your friend, sent from heaven. Easy to see where your going and find your own ideas on. Keep it fun and lots of good notes in all keys will come out.

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DavidKOS, 

DSDarr, 

Mark Gunter, 

ralph johansson, 

Rick Jones

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## Jim Garber

Jim Nollman: what is unclear about your question is whether you are playing with other musicians or just fooling around with the tunes for yourself. Nothing wrong with transposing but also nothing wrong with playing in those unfamiliar keys. I have been exploring Quebecois and contra dance tunes originally written in F and Bb and (rarely Eb). Mandolin is pretty easy to find your way in these keys but I am also trying to work on intonation on the fiddle and even change positions. Challenges are good. However, I have not really played too many of these in public.

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DavidKOS

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## Jim Nollman

Thanks for all the good comments. Actually what I am doing is threefold. First, I'm practicing alone to learn some of the old jazz tunes I have always loved. I am fairly familiar with F from Scottish reels and strathspeys, but I have only ever played Bb on Garfield's Hornpipe, which sounds a lot like a simple version of something by Scott Joplin.  So confronting Eb and Bb is my first challenge. If I ever play with a jazz band, I won't ask them to transpose to some key outside the canon. I have no interest to use a capo. And yet,  it seemed effortless to play along with Bix's "Singing the Blues"  after  bumping it down to D.

Second, I'm listening not only to the melody but also to the general technique of early jazz jamming. How do all those horns improvise almost all the time without actual soloing or even getting in each other's way? It is so much more captivating to me than the soloing structure of bluegrass or modern jazz. 

Third, once I get a grounding of old jazz improv technique, I plan to experiment with some of the more talented old time musicians I play with regularly. I think Bill Monroe probably did something similar when he introduced improvization to old time and called it bluegrass. He chose to introduce it as a series of solos, one at a time, rather than structuring it like New Orleans improv which is all at once and almost all the time. I do hear the influence of New Orleans jazz on  arrangements by southern string band groups like Skillet Lickers and Leake County Revelers, although the scales, the syncopation and phrasing structure of early jazz is very different than most other old time, so I have no idea what the result will sound like.

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DavidKOS

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## Bruce Clausen

> I have long wished that someone would transpose the Charlie Parker Omnibook into G.


I'm pretty sure that book (like many other transcription books and fake books) came out in three forms:  one each for C, Eb, and Bb instruments.  A tune played in Bb on piano/guitar/etc. is in G for an alto sax player and in C for a trumpet or tenor sax.  So you could get the Eb book and play all the tunes in the easy keys Bird himself was in.  

(But they still may not be all that easy to play.)

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DavidKOS

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## Jim Bevan

Ya, but there's no Omnibook for Ab instruments ('cuz, do they exist?), where a tune that's in Eb (so, in C for Bird) would be written out in G.

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## Jacob

*Horns* -  Low brass:
*Valves* - All keys & modes are equally difficult/easy.
3 or 4 valves - push the key, open the valve, play the note.
Not quite in tune for all notes? 
"The fleas come with the dog."
*Slides* - Different strokes.
All notes can be played in tune, but, they do change locations. 
Hide & seek? (Alternate positions?) 
*Sing through the horn.*
*Play on.*

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## ralph johansson

> Second, I'm listening not only to the melody but also to the general technique of early jazz jamming. How do all those horns improvise almost all the time without actual soloing or even getting in each other's way? It is so much more captivating to me than the soloing structure of bluegrass or modern jazz. 
> 
> Third, once I get a grounding of old jazz improv technique, I plan to experiment with some of the more talented old time musicians I play with regularly. I think Bill Monroe probably did something similar when he introduced improvization to old time and called it bluegrass. He chose to introduce it as a series of solos, one at a time, rather than structuring it like New Orleans improv which is all at once and almost all the time. I do hear the influence of New Orleans jazz on  arrangements by southern string band groups like Skillet Lickers and Leake County Revelers, although the scales, the syncopation and phrasing structure of early jazz is very different than most other old time, so I have no idea what the result will sound like.


I'm not at all sure that Monroe "introduced" improvisation to string band music (what about Western Swing and its immediate predecessors?). But one thing is certain, he did NOT name a genre and it never was his intention to "invent" or originate one. The Bluegrass Boys were formed i 1939 and went through various stages of experimentation (mostly undocumented because of the recording ban) before Earl Scruggs joined the band in late 1945. And, really, BG as a _genre_ did not exist until 1949 when Flatt & Scruggs took off on their own and early bands like the Stanley Brothers and Reno & Smiley were formed.  The label "bluegrass" came even later. No one knows exactly when, but it was well established by the time Alan Lomax published his article in Esquire magazine  in the late 50's.

As for ensemble playing in NO jazz it's made possible by the farily well defined and formulaic roles of the clarinet and trombone (assuming the cornet or trumpet playing lead) in their respective ranges.

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DavidKOS

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## ralph johansson

> Jazz players get *so smug* about playing in the flat keys. 
> 
> But face it, Bb, Eb, Ab etc. is about the same for horn players as playing in C, G, D and/or A on a stringed instrument such as fiddle/mandolin.  Let's see some of them hornies whip through an unfamiliar tune in concert E or B without some fumbling.
> 
> Gb/F# is *not* a _"friendly key"_ for C flute fingering.


Jazz players are supposed to master all keys; this is strongly emphasized in most books devoted to jazz didactics. One book exemplifies by citing All the Things You Are (5 keys), Body and Soul (3 keys), and Cherokee (4). Done in their printed keys they cover 10 major keys, only F (a rather common key) and F# are missing.
However,  a few keys, like A, E, and B, aren't used that much. 

And, of course, on mandolin and guitar that is no big issue at all (although Joe Pass advised beginners to avoid D, A, and E, because of those open strings).

 If you can play in A on mandolin you can play in Ab, just move your fingerings one fret back.

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DavidKOS

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## ralph johansson

> Concerning flat keys, I've found hanging out with Eb, Bb, F, Ab that they actually end up making more sense and offering more possibilities for improv ideas.
>       Johnny Gimble was right though, "There aint nothing natural about B natuaral"..
> 
>      And Jethro often moved things to sharp keys, Jitterbug Waltz from Eb to D for example.


ANd, to quote Svend Asmussen (Danish is such a sexy language): "H dur (B major) har fem krydser (five sharps)  og er en ikke eksisterende tonart (key) i jazz". 

Jehtro chose very strange keys, indeed, e.g., Corinne, Corinne (usually done in Bb) in G.

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## Joel Glassman

Learning to play in F Bb Eb etc is a good idea. I have a couple of thoughts.
First, if you like swing music, Django and Stephane generally played in G C F and 
associated minor keys. There's a lot of repertoire and maybe local hot club musicians.
The music is definitely Jazz -- 1930s and 40s American Songbook standards.
Second, if you capo at the first fret and play in A, you are playing 
in Bb. Learn to avoid open strings [after a while] and then play them without the capo.
You are playing movable scales. Do the same with D to Eb etc. This is just an exercise 
to get the feel of avoiding open strings, and recognize familiar chord forms. 
You do have to memorize the flat key progressions, and to think in those keys.
Also, its really helpful to think in terms of "the 2 chord" "5 chord" etc.
Basic Jazz stuff...

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DavidKOS

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## Joel Glassman

> ANd, to quote Svend Asmussen (Danish is such a sexy language): "H dur (B major) har fem krydser (five sharps)  og er en ikke eksisterende tonart (key) i jazz"...


That was a funny quote from Svend: "B major has five sharps and is a non-existent key in jazz".
What a great musician he was. I was friends with him. 
Will send you a personal message here on Mandolin Cafe in a few days.
--Joel

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## mandocrucian

Frankly, if I was playing with horn players (but *why* would a mando [acoustic] even try to compete with them sonically? unless it was on electric and then you might as well go to a mandola or short scale octave down where lower sounds better)…… but say it was jazz with people (sonically compatible instruments) who insisted for some inane reason that it was criminal to play _"Lullaby of Birdland"_ in Gm/Bb instead of Fm/Ab, I'd simply have a mandolin tuned down to *F-C-G-D*, and read off Bb instrument transposed lead sheets.

PS: Aside from Boots Randolph, how many sax players played a *C Sax*? So why do mando players insist on jazz tunes on a G tuned instrument.

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## DavidKOS

> J  Let's see some of them hornies whip through an unfamiliar tune in concert E or B without some fumbling.


I know of any number of horn players that can rip in those keys...even sightreading.

- - - Updated - - -




> I'd simply have a mandolin tuned down to *F-C-G-D*, and read off Bb instrument transposed lead sheets.


I have one mandolin tuned down to Bb so I can read duets with my clarinet playing buddy.

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## Joel Glassman

> I'd simply have a mandolin tuned down to *F-C-G-D*, and read off Bb instrument transposed lead sheets.


What a good idea. I never thought of doing that.

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## Jim Nollman

A few more  thoughts. As far as a mandolin playing with horns, I’ve done it a few times, my favorite was a few old time sessions with a tuba player. I recall having great fun with notey tunes without a lot of chord changes. Things like sandy boys, grub springs. 

I had dinner the other night with a clarinet player who has been playing trad jazz for many years. I asked him if New Orleans horn improv could be translated successfully to a string band of fiddle, banjo, mandolin, and bass. He told me that jug bands sometimes try that approach and it works ok up to a point.. He thought the New Orleans traditional style works so well because  different horns sounds very different from each another, and all of them are able to play long sustained  notes. String instruments are mostly a sound of many “pin pricks”, and it’s simply more difficult to differentiate what is what. For example an arpeggiating banjo can’t stay out of the niche of a fast cross picking mandolin, so to make it work for trad jazz, both would have to be restrained to playing single notes. To make his point, he described how  trad jazz relies on the simple vamping of a percussive tenor banjo. That’s also one reason I own a mandolin built and sold as a jazz instrument. Slightly tubby with lots of pop and sustain. 

As far as the history of bluegrass. I wasn’t commenting on bill Monroe’s historical awareness of what he started, (of which I know nothing), but his evolved style of instrumentalists who were mostly steeped in Appalachian music, getting to play distinct solos one at a time. Even today, some session leaders I know refuse to allow even the hint of alternative note selection in an old time session.

And lastly, can anyone here offer any recorded examples of a string band playing in the multiple improv style of New Orleans trad jazz?

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DavidKOS

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## James Vwaal

> And lastly, can anyone here offer any recorded examples of a string band playing in the multiple improv style of New Orleans trad jazz?


Well, the last "jam" that I attended had two guitarists playing over the top of my solo even though I had given each space to take their own solos earlier. It wasn't pretty and you should be glad it wasn't recorded.  :Crying: 

Have you seen this site? http://www.offbeat.com/articles/new-...f-the-century/

_This band, Edmond “Doc” Souchon’s 6 7/8 String Band, with rhythm guitar, mandolin, “Hawaiian” slide guitar and bass, may be the best surviving evidence of a string band in the style of collective improvisation on early ragtime, society, pop and novelty tunes played around the turn of the century._

Isn't this the "collective improv" that you are looking for?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeFEAtFudCI

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DavidKOS, 

Jim Nollman

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## James Vwaal

Here is what I came up with a youtube search on the string: "string band collective improvisation".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntruYgVlFVM

Not the same as collective horn improv, as you said the "tinky tinky tinky" of stringed melody lines doesn't work like smooth horn lines. Thus, they ended up chomping chords behind each solo.

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## DavidKOS

> I asked him if New Orleans horn improv could be translated successfully to a string band of fiddle, banjo, mandolin, and bass. He told me that jug bands sometimes try that approach and it works ok up to a point..


As a native New Orleans string player, this guy is _wrong_.

You can play jazz with a string band!




> Have you seen this site? http://www.offbeat.com/articles/new-...f-the-century/
> 
> _This band, Edmond Doc Souchons 6 7/8 String Band, with rhythm guitar, mandolin, Hawaiian slide guitar and bass, may be the best surviving evidence of a string band in the style of collective improvisation on early ragtime, society, pop and novelty tunes played around the turn of the century._



Perfect example, the 6 7/8 String Band.

There used to be others in the past, the 6 7/8 String Band was together for many decades and is well known.

So what about all the Gypsy jazz players? They sure play string band jazz.

Eddie Lang and Joe Venuti?

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James Vwaal, 

Jim Nollman, 

Rick Jones

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## Tom Wright

One can play jazz on any instrument, but some work better than others. (Please, no bagpipes, oboe, bassoon, french horn, or harp.) For me, 10-string blows away my violin or viola. Not only easier to amplify, it serves as a comping instrument, without piano or guitar.

An associated question is, do you want to stay in the trad-jazz/swing genre of old stuff? If you want to join with the icons of jazz, Parker, Coltrane, Monk, Sonny Rollins, Miles, Bill Evans, Jm Hall, etc., and newer names like John Scofield and Michael Brecker, go electric, with a C course. Best, convert a 5-string to 10 for the richer tone.

One genre that welcomes everybody blowing is contra dance. Instrumentation is ad hoc, often with winds like flute and saxophone. My contra band is piano, acoustic 10-string, violin, and flute. We vary the sound, sometimes unison, sometimes one solo, and sometimes a free-for-all. Tunes edge into rags and marches, but are mostly reels and jigs.

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DavidKOS, 

James Vwaal

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## James Vwaal

> Perfect example, the 6 7/8 String Band.
> 
> There used to be others in the past, the 6 7/8 String Band was together for many decades and is well known.
> 
> So what about all the Gypsy jazz players? They sure play string band jazz.
> 
> Eddie Lang and Joe Venuti?


With all due respect, David, I think the main question that Jim Nollman had was regarding "collective improv" or "simultaneous improv" whereby several instruments are playing solos at the same time. One hears that all of the time in NO jazz bands which have horns mostly (with comping banjo).

I have listened to a LOT of gypsy jazz, and rarely if ever hear two instruments taking a solo at the same time. Or maybe not solos so much as different lines (e.g., a descending trombone line against an ascending trumpet line). If there is such a band (other than The 6 7/8 String Band), it seems that one of those instruments is a clarinet or other horn that plays flowing lines that don't get covered up by the "tinky tinky" lines of strings.

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> With all due respect, David, I think the main question that Jim Nollman had was regarding "collective improv" or "simultaneous improv" whereby several instruments are playing solos at the same time. One hears that all of the time in NO jazz bands which have horns mostly (with comping banjo).


We used to play collective group improv "New Orleans style" with strings. It may not be common but it can be done!




> I have listened to a LOT of gypsy jazz, and rarely if ever hear two instruments taking a solo at the same time. Or maybe not solos so much as different lines (e.g., a descending trombone line against an ascending trumpet line). If there is such a band (other than The 6 7/8 String Band), it seems that one of those instruments is a clarinet or other horn that plays flowing lines that don't get covered up by the "tinky tinky" lines of strings.


Point taken about Gypsy jazz....it is more of a soloists' style.

I guess I don't hear jazz strings as "tinky tink"...that's not the way we were taught to play.

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James Vwaal

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## stevojack665

I play mandolin in a string swing jazz band. Our lineup is upright bass, guitar, mandolin, violin, clarinet. We often have 2 or 3 instruments "soloing" at the same time. Usually mandolin, violin & clarinet. As long as we're all playing it pretty straight it works out well. We also have some sections worked up where everyone goes at the same time, but those are well rehearsed with specific parts for everyone.

PS- to the OP, if you're looking for a specific piece of music to work on Bb, check out David Grisman's "Sea of Cortez". In his Latin - Book of the Dawg, he says he wrote it as part of a practicing Bb minor scale.
Great song and well presented notation in the book.

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DavidKOS, 

DSDarr, 

James Vwaal, 

Jim Nollman

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## James Vwaal

> I guess I don't hear jazz strings as "tinky tink"...that's not the way we were taught to play.


Yeah, "tinky tinky" was my poor and off-the-cuff attempt to express how the timbre of stringed instruments is too similar to be clearly distinguished as opposed to the timbre of the different horn sounds. Your point is taken.

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DavidKOS

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## James Vwaal

> I play mandolin in a string swing jazz band. Our lineup is upright bass, guitar, mandolin, violin, clarinet. We often have 2 or 3 instruments "soloing" at the same time. Usually mandolin, violin & clarinet. As long as we're all playing it pretty straight it works out well. We also have some sections worked up where everyone goes at the same time, but those are well rehearsed with specific parts for everyone.


Cool. Do you have any recorded examples for us to hear?

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DavidKOS

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## UsuallyPickin

OK people … THIS is the kind of thread I like to run into. Thanks … carry on. R/

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DavidKOS, 

stevojack665

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## stevojack665

> Cool. Do you have any recorded examples for us to hear?


Our recorded material has mostly individual solos.



When we play live it's looser with overlapping parts

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Bill McCall, 

DavidKOS, 

James Vwaal, 

Rick Jones

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## James Vwaal

> Our recorded material has mostly individual solos.
> 
> 
> When we play live it's looser with overlapping parts


Wait a minute. I have listened to this before. Someone with the handle "colorado_al" posted a link to this back in January.

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...-Coucou-New-EP

Did you replace Al in that group, or are there two mandolinists in the band? Or are you and Al one and the same?

The music, I like. But, as you said, it doesn't show simultaneous improv or simultaneous melody or contra-melody lines.

Good gypsy jazz; the singer sells the style well. What I mean by that is by both dress and vocal style. While it might be okay to dress scruffily to play newgrass or "progressive" bluegrass, Gypsy jazz really requires good grooming (clothing and personal) to sell the style. You didn't see Django and Stephane wearing T-shirts and ripped jeans.

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DavidKOS

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## Jim Nollman

Im thinking of the concurrent improv style of tuba skinny. Especially the slower stuff where they often start with all three horns improvising in very strict niches  at the same time. Anyone doing what they do on trumpet, trombone, and clarinet, but with fiddle, guitar and mandolin? I guess thats the essence of my first post, but I didnt say it very clearly.

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## ralph johansson

> Jazz players are supposed to master all keys; this is strongly emphasized in most books devoted to jazz didactics. One book exemplifies by citing All the Things You Are (5 keys), Body and Soul (3 keys), and Cherokee (4). Done in their printed keys they cover 10 major keys, only F (a rather common key) and F# are missing.
> However,  a few keys, like A, E, and B, aren't used that much. 
> 
> And, of course, on mandolin and guitar that is no big issue at all (although Joe Pass advised beginners to avoid D, A, and E, because of those open strings).
> 
>  If you can play in A on mandolin you can play in Ab, just move your fingerings one fret back.



I forgot Joy Spring, which passes throught the keys of F, F#, and G. So there you are, four songs to cover all 12 major keys.

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## ralph johansson

> If you're playing jazz, you're going to have to learn to play in those keys. A few reasons, a bunch of the repertoire is recorded in those keys and transcribed in those keys. If you're going to jam with other folks who know those tunes, they will play them in those keys. Asking them to transpose for you isn't going to go over well, unless you're a singer and that tune isn't in your range.
> So, the long answer is get used to playing in closed positions where you have few or no open strings. 
> The quick answer, and one this jazz mandolin player uses (which I'm sure some will bash me for) is a capo. Buy one. use it. Don't give a damn what other people think. 
> Capo at 1st fret and play in A and D. 
> That doesn't mean not to learn to play closed position and develop a facility for playing in Bb and Eb. That will help you all over the finger board. 
> In the meantime, you can still rely on what you already know to play those tunes now with the help of a capo. 
> Spend time after you play with the capo and play without it to see what the differences are and learn about closed position playing. That in itself is an instructive lesson.
> Most of all, have fun!


Capoing seems like very curcuitous route, capo first, then remove it and start all over? I've never used a capo on mandolin, and only very rarely on guitar, in harmonically limited genres, like Bluegrass (but I often play slower tunes without capo, e.g., Beaumont Rag and Peach Picking Time (in F), and I Am a Pilgrim (in A, Bb or B). I wouldn't use a capo in the keys of A or D.

Furthermore  I've always found capos a bit confusing, thinking one key in the capoed position, another up the neck. Also, in genres like jazz, open strings in sharp keys don't offer any particular advantages, because you will have to avoid them. By that token the key of Bb is easier than A, at least in first position. In keys like F, Bb, and Eb, open strings are useful as phrase turns, pivot notes and approach notes, at least to me, because I'm used to them. They also seem to fit the position markers particularly well.

I never learned the mandolin as systematically as the guitar, which I learned key by key in first position, traveling along the circle of fifths in both directions: C, F, F, Bb, D, etc. I would recommend that approach to a rank (serious) beginner on mandolin. (next step, transposing C and F forms up the neck - since the C and F scales use only three frets in first position, and, after that, total freedom).

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## lowtone2

> Im thinking of the concurrent improv style of tuba skinny. Especially the slower stuff where they often start with all three horns improvising in very strict niches  at the same time. Anyone doing what they do on trumpet, trombone, and clarinet, but with fiddle, guitar and mandolin? I guess thats the essence of my first post, but I didnt say it very clearly.


That trad jazz style does usually have a section of collective improv, and usually everybody solos too. Its really fun to watch Shaye Cohn arrange on the fly with Tuba Skinny. 

 I dont know of anyone doing that with strings, but i dont see why it wouldnt work. It is possible to mix horns and strings, with strings soloing. I have done it playing saxophone. The horn players just have to lay back and listen. As for keys, were supposed to be fluent in all keys on the horns, and if youre going to play a saxophone with guitars you had better be tight on E and A. 

 Ive learned to read and transpose on the fly, because I play Bb and Eb saxes, mandolins, and bass. So I just get my lead sheets/fake books in C. Believe me, if I can do it, anyone can. Its very doable.

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