# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  About those 48 hour approval periods....

## mandotrout777

I've debated bringing this up for a while now and have decided I would like to see what others think. 

I recently bought a mandolin on a 48 hour approval agreement. The mandolin arrived and I initially thought it had potential, but the setup was extremely poor. There was an incredible amount of relief in the neck, the bridge saddle was all the way down, and the action was still a little on the high side. The strings were worn out and of the "flat top" variety which is not a string I would ever use. Since the mandolin was 13 years old and I knew it would need some setup work, I took it to my local luthier to have it checked out. Mainly I wanted to make sure the truss rod still functioned properly because I knew the bow in the neck was going to have to come out in order for me to keep it. When my luthier friend saw it he said it was a real mess. He checked out the truss rod, and it still functioned okay, so I had him make it more playable. Making the neck straighter made the action lower so it buzzed a bit and the saddle needed to be raised some. So I had him go ahead and do all that, plus I put on a set of J74s so I could hear the mandolin with the type of strings I typically use. The mandolin played much better, but the frets had a bit more wear than I liked (for the price I paid), and the bridge was poorly fit, you  could slide a business card underneath the tailpiece side of both bridge feet. Despite the mandolin's potential, I decided it wasn't quite what I was looking for and I didn't want to just keep it on the hope that it would be "better" after all the necessary work was done. So I decided to return it.

Now comes the interesting part. When I told the seller I wanted to return it, I also told him that my luthier had tweaked it some. He informed me that this was an unacceptable modification of the instrument and refused to take it back. I explained to him that I had a professional make the adjustments and that he was free to speak with him about it. I offered to have the instrument action returned to where it was upon my receipt of it. He still refused. We exchanged some emails and, I'm ashamed to say, I got rather unpleasant about it. Anyway, since he had my money, I didn't see any real option for me, so I ended up with the mandolin. I went ahead and had some work done on it, but the whole experience was just so sour that I couldn't really like the mandolin and I moved it along, even though it still showed some potential. 

So, what I would like to have people weigh in on is this: Is confirming that the truss rod still functions properly, on an older mandolin, an unacceptable modification that would void a 48-hour approval period? If it is, which I can kind of go either way on at this point, is it the responsibility of the seller to make sure a mandolin is adjusted properly prior to sending it out, or is it buyer beware and you better be sure to ask those questions before it gets shipped? Or... do you just adjust it while you have it and if you don't like it do you just put the action back where it was and send it back without telling the seller? 

In my own defense as far as buyer beware, I bought this from a reputable source and made the poor assumption that the mandolin would be set up well.

Also, I do not intend this as a bashing session of anybody. I left the seller's name out on purpose, because after the fact I can sort of see their point of view, even though I don't fully agree with it. Plus, like I said, I moved it along and I'm happy with what I have now, and the new owner is happy with this mandolin (albeit after both I and another party invested time and money in it to make it "right"). I'm just curious as to what others would have done and also offer my experience as something to think about before you have a used instrument shipped to you on approval.

For me, I don't think I'll be buying any more used mandolins from internet sources.

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Canoedad

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## Canoedad

Wow.  That sounds like a bad experience.  With all the other issues going on, perhaps I might have assumed a working truss rod and then pondered whether I would have still wanted it given the worn frets, the poorly fit bridge, and the saddle lowering range maxed out.  Or maybe I would have done exactly as you did and got stuck with an instrument I didn't want, just as you did.

Assuming as true the story as told, I'd think the reputable source didn't do so well on this one.   Thanks for posting this cautionary accounting.

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mandotrout777

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## Josh Levine

Once you made changes to the instrument I can understand the seller's position. Although, it seems somewhat rigid for an honest business transaction. In the future maybe consider:

1. Talking over the changes with the seller before you make them. 

2. Returning it back to the condition it was in before you made the changes (strings aside of course) and just telling the seller it did not meet your expectations.

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allenhopkins, 

Ed Goist, 

mandotrout777

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## Chief

I think once you start altering an instrument, you void any return policy. Having it checked over is one thing, but when you start "tweaking things", you've changed the instrument- no matter how small the change, and it becomes yours. Just my opinion. I've bought, sold, and traded many instruments, and wouldn't dream of messing with things until I was sure I wanted to keep it.

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Ed Goist, 

mandotrout777, 

Susan H.

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## Eddie Sheehy

It does seem like a disappointing transaction.  But given that there are at least two sides to each story it would be interesting to hear the other side...
I would have informed the Seller of my first impressions and then asked if I could get an extension on the 48hr window so a luthier could check it out (I have done this and had this done to me).  Then depending on the luthiers findings and recommendation we move forward from there or return the instrument.  Once you have made adjustments to the instrument you kinda give the Seller an "out", though without hearing his side of it it's hard to justify it.

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JEStanek, 

mandotrout777

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## Gary Alter

This type of thing can represent a delicate situation, if I received an instrument on approval and either had concerns about or wasn't satisfied with the setup I would contact the seller to let them know my thoughts and ask if they were okay with my changing the setup to see if I could set it to my preferences. Once you have their approval and you haven't done anything to damage the instrument I would think you'd still be within your rights to return the instrument within the approval period. This kind of thing can swing both ways, if I was selling on approval I wouldn't want the buyer to change the setup especially if I don't know that the instrument would be adjusted properly. I've had work done by 'professional' luthiers that wasn't always done to what I'd consider quality results. The safest route to me is having good communication with the buyer/seller so each side has a clear understanding of the situation.

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mandotrout777

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## Steve L

I can understand your point of view, but the bottom line for me would be if  I didn't like the condition when I opened the box it would go right back.

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Ed Goist, 

Eldon Dennis, 

mandotrout777, 

sacausey

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## Astro

This is exactly why I decided to not buy an instrument without playing it first, no matter how tempting.

I can understand buying an entry level mando from a reputable dealer off the internet. Or an occasional great buy on an known model. But I am past all that now and looking for the next "the one". I look at the classifieds longingly every day and see many I would likely buy if I could play.

But I have traveled far and wide and have played some expensive mandolins and that experience reinforces my decision in that if I had succumbed to temptation and bought any of the instruments I've visited so far, I would have sent them back and eaten the shipping and hours and trouble of boxing.

Once you know the feel of what you want, it just doesn't make any sense to buy without a try.

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mandotrout777

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## mandotrout777

> Once you made changes to the instrument I can understand the seller's position. Although, it seems somewhat rigid for an honest business transaction. In the future maybe consider:
> 
> 1. Talking over the changes with the seller before you make them. 
> 
> 2. Returning it back to the condition it was in before you made the changes (strings aside of course) and just telling the seller it did not meet your expectations.


Yes, these are both things I considered in hindsight. I'm not sure number 2 would have been an honest thing to do. I would add a third option, which is to discuss setup, strings, etc. before the instrument ships. Maybe a seller would be willing to try to have the mandolin set up to a buyer's specs ahead of time.

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## mandotrout777

> It does seem like a disappointing transaction.  But given that there are at least two sides to each story it would be interesting to hear the other side...
> I would have informed the Seller of my first impressions and then asked if I could get an extension on the 48hr window so a luthier could check it out (I have done this and had this done to me).  Then depending on the luthiers findings and recommendation we move forward from there or return the instrument.  Once you have made adjustments to the instrument you kinda give the Seller an "out", though without hearing his side of it it's hard to justify it.


@ Chief and Eddie: I think the seller would pretty much agree with my account, except he might say the frets weren't all that worn. His contention was of course once you "tweak it" you own it. As I said, I can see that point of view now that I've had some time to look at it in hindsight. My one point of contention on it was that I didn't tweak it myself, but had a professional instrument repair person do it. The seller was not interested in even discussing it with him. But you're probably right, I should have discussed it up front or maybe asked that he just take it back without my having to pay return shipping since I felt I couldn't really make a full assessment of the instrument without "tweaking" it.

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## multidon

I think you should have just had the luthier examine it and evaluate what was needed without tweaking it. That being said I would want to know if the truss rod worked on any instrument. Assuming a traditional one way I would always loosen it first. You can't hurt it by loosening. I would keep track of how many quarter turns it took to take it to just snug. That way you can return it to where it was quite easily. If nobody saw you do it did it really happen?

I returned a instrument to a music store due to this issue. I won't name the store but the make a distinction between "used" and " vintage". Bet you already figured it out. Anyways I was told not only had it been gone over by a luthier but a specially certified vintage luthier. I got it home and the truss rod nut wouldn't budge. Took it back and explained why. How can it have been "gone over" by a luthier if no one thought to check and see if the truss rod nut would move? Very embarrassing for them I think.

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mandotrout777

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## mandotrout777

Playing devil's advocate here, but isn't an instrument with a truss rod meant to be adjusted, and if you use that capability, are you really "modifying" anything? Especially when the adjustment is done by a qualified professional? Wouldn't that be similar to test driving a car and being told if you adjust the driver's seat position you're committed to buying it? I realize that's an extreme analogy, but you get the idea. Perhaps it's more analogous to taking a car in and doing a tuneup to see if it will run better before you buy it and then having the seller refuse to take it back because you fixed it for him?

I could have returned the instrument to the condition it was in when I received it and the seller wouldn't have known. In my opinion I just offered to leave the instrument in a better state than when I received it. Plus, how do you determine that a truss rod is still functional without tightening or loosening it, and thereby "modifying" the instrument?

And then there's this. Doesn't this concept make it possible for any seller to get an instrument back after a 48 hour return and then refuse to give the buyer's money back because they claim the action has been changed. That just turns into a case of one person's word against the other's and in that case the one who holds both the instrument and the money has complete control of the situation.

Just something to think about.

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9lbShellhamer, 

lflngpicker, 

Tommcgtx

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## Canoedad

> how do you determine that a truss rod is still functional without tightening or loosening it, and thereby "modifying" the instrument?


 This is exactly why I said I could see the potential for me to have found myself in the same position you did.  If I got an instrument with little to no neck relief I'd probably just assume the trust rod worked, since the neck is in good shape for some reason.  Likewise if I got one with a neck with way too much relief, I would also have to assume the neck is out of adjustment for some reason.  A faulty truss rod would be at or near the top of the list, especially coming from a source that knows how to set up an instrument.

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mandotrout777

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## Eddie Sheehy

An ounce of communication could have prevented a pound of hurt.  A simple email or phone call letting the seller know up front what you intended would have resulted in a return or he would have have bought in to you getting it tweaked.  By going ahead on your own you gave him an " out" as he saw it and he took it.

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JEStanek, 

mandotrout777, 

Tommcgtx

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## almeriastrings

On an older instrument establishing that the truss rod functions as intended is not really any different from checking the gears of the tuners work. Is is a "modification" to tune it up? I would define a modification as something not completely reversible -  like drilling a hole or sanding a bridge. Stripped threads on truss rods are a common defect (and can be costly to fix), so it makes perfect sense to test this function.

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mandotrout777, 

Tommcgtx

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## mandotrout777

> This is exactly why I said I could see the potential for me to have found myself in the same position you did.  If I got an instrument with little to no neck relief I'd probably just assume the trust rod worked, since the neck is in good shape for some reason.  Likewise if I got one with a neck with way too much relief, I would also have to assume the neck is out of adjustment for some reason.  A faulty truss rod would be at or near the top of the list, especially coming from a source that knows how to set up an instrument.


Exactly.

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## Eddie Sheehy

"and it still functioned okay, so I had him make it more playable. Making the neck straighter made the action lower so it buzzed a bit and the saddle needed to be raised some. So I had him go ahead and do all that"
You should have communicated with him before the work, he might even have offered to pay for it.  He certainly saw it as an excuse to not accept a return.

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mandotrout777

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## mandotrout777

> On an older instrument establishing that the truss rod functions as intended is not really any different from checking the gears of the tuners work. Is is a "modification" to tune it up? I would define a modification as something not completely reversible -  like drilling a hole or sanding a bridge. Stripped threads on truss rods are a common defect (and can be costly to fix), so it makes perfect sense to test this function.


This was my take on the definition of "modifications" as well. 

Again, I think it's important for people to know that this isn't necessarily the case, and the seller pretty much holds all the cards once they have your money. Communication ahead of the sale is your best bet.

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## Bernie Daniel

> .....Now comes the interesting part. When I told the seller I wanted to return it, I also told him that my luthier had tweaked it some. He informed me that this was an unacceptable modification of the instrument and refused to take it back. I explained to him that I had a professional make the adjustments and that he was free to speak with him about it. I offered to have the instrument action returned to where it was upon my receipt of it. He still refused. ....


*This is just my opinion* but I think that exchange indicates that seller was looking for an excuse to refuse the return and might well have come up with one on his own had you not made changes.  New strings, set up issues are not items causing irreversible damage and HAVE to be done if the instrument comes to the buyer out of alignment (e.g., old strings, poor set up etc).  

IMO, the seller should have made these right before shipment because the buyer is usually responsible for return costs  ---to protest such changes is nonsense and speaks to me of not such pure intentions?   *Again, IMO this was an example of an irresponsible seller.*

That said I would definitely not have done all things you did before deciding whether to fish or cut bait.  I assume that you really wanted it to work out and was trying to see if there was any chance you could find for making the transaction work.   I've been there and it IS a hassle to send something back -- but from minute one when a potential problem with the purchase is seen immediately contact the seller and tell them it is probably coming back but that you are willing to try a few things -- try to talk to the seller and get an agreement in writing.  

All this is easy to say in hind sight but some of us have been to this rodeo a time or twenty before.

*But my sense is* if it all went down exactly as you described that this seller had no intention of ever seeing the mandolin back.

Did you buy this instrument via some organization that "polices" their transactions (like the Cafe Classifieds or via PayPal) - if so it would not hurt to take a look see to determine if you have any recourse?

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mandotrout777, 

Tommcgtx

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## Canoedad

> if it all went down exactly as you described that this seller had no intention of ever seeing the mandolin back.


It sure sounds like sharp dealing, at a minimum.  Any return after an evaluation period gets scrutinized for damage.  Why should this situation be any different, assuming good faith all the way around.  If the instrument upon return was deemed to be damaged, then there is a problem to work out.  But to simply refuse to even look at the instrument after a neck and bridge adjustment sounds like sharp dealing to me.  

Yes, communication should have occurred.  It didn't.  Now what?  I guess it depends on who you're dealing with.

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mandotrout777, 

Tommcgtx

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## Danny Clark

ive sold hundreds and i never liked anyone messing with them ,a few times they have ask permission to have something checked out by a luthier but unless i knew of the issue i dont want them messed with
 to many so-called luthiers can really make a mess ,ive seen alot of mistakes made such as super glueing a bridge to the top on a carved top mandolin
i never ask for 48 hrs ,i think 24 hrs is plenty i normally know in 10 -15 mins if im keeping it or not 
Danny

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mandotrout777

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## yankees1

Sounds like he/she wouldn't have accepted a return anyway and probably would have came up with some other excuse.

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mandotrout777

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## wsugai

Yeah, I'm Danny on this one. Once you mess with the instrument, you've essentially accepted it and I consider a truss rod adjustment in that category. In fact, if you put new strings on it, I would consider that a sign of acceptance as well. No hard and fast rules here, just the wild west of mail order buying and selling.

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mandotrout777

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## Eddie Sheehy

I don't know about a truss-rod check, certainly not an adjustment (it's one of the few setup things I don't do myself for good reason), new strings are ok, sometimes I get an instrument with a broken string or no strings and you can't tell about things like intonation and sound without strings.  But like I said earlier, all these things can be agreed upon with a little communication - BEFORE doing them...

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mandotrout777

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## mandotrout777

> Yeah, I'm Danny on this one. Once you mess with the instrument, you've essentially accepted it and I consider a truss rod adjustment in that category. In fact, if you put new strings on it, I would consider that a sign of acceptance as well. No hard and fast rules here, just the wild west of mail order buying and selling.


This is the view of the seller I dealt with as well. 

As to the idea of "sharp dealing", I'm not convinced of that. The guy in question has a good reputation. We just had a disagreement about what a "modification" was, and now that it's all in the rear view mirror, I thought it would be a good idea to discuss this so that buyers and sellers can all better communicate on this issue.

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Steve VandeWater

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## yankees1

> Yeah, I'm Danny on this one. Once you mess with the instrument, you've essentially accepted it and I consider a truss rod adjustment in that category. In fact, if you put new strings on it, I would consider that a sign of acceptance as well. No hard and fast rules here, just the wild west of mail order buying and selling.


  New strings ? You've got to be kidding !

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George R. Lane, 

mandotrout777, 

nickster60, 

sgarrity

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## Astro

Jeff, Im glad to hear you're pretty even tempered about it all. The responses by the forum are weighing in both camps as to whats considered a modification so  I don't think either of you is wrong or unreasonable here. Just a difference in interpretation. So the moral of the story (and thanks for bringing it up)--when in doubt, talk it out. Before hand.

We just bought a "new" car. Used, of course. Its 2 years old. Part of our buy agreement was that our mechanic would check it out.

I wouldn't buy a car from someone who wouldn't allow that. Maybe a good idea to ask for the same for mandos from here on ?

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Charley wild, 

mandotrout777

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## sblock

> Yeah, I'm Danny on this one. Once you mess with the instrument, you've essentially accepted it and I consider a truss rod adjustment in that category. In fact, if you put new strings on it, I would consider that a sign of acceptance as well. No hard and fast rules here, just the wild west of mail order buying and selling.


Sorry, but I doubt that many of the folks here on the Cafe are likely to agree with that extreme view.  For example, what if one of the strings were missing, or broke during transit, or during tune-up? Would replacing that string constitute "acceptance" of the instrument, by your standards?  Put simply, the instrument has to be played by the would-be buyer -- not just examined by eye -- in order to be properly evaluated.  That aspect of the transaction is absolutely fundamental!

Let's face some facts:  there are parts of the mandolin that are *made* to be adjusted or tweaked. And adjusting these same things _reversibly_, in order to carry out an evaluation, does not constitute an "acceptance" of the instrument. 

In that category, I would tend to place (1) strings (which can be changed), (2) tuning gears (which can be turned), (3) finger rests (which can be removed and replaced), (4) endpins (which can be pulled and re-inserted), (5) bridges (whose position and height can be changed), (6) truss rod covers (which can be removed for inspection), (7) truss rods (which can be turned).  Also, some mandolins come with (8) straps (which can be removed), (9) Tone Gards (ditto),  and (10) other accessories.

These are all fair game for adjustment/change during an evaluation, _provided that the change is reversible_ and the instrument suffers no damage.  Yes, adjustments of the truss rod are probably the most "extreme" on this list, but they are a normal part of reversible mandolin adjustment.  And, as someone pointed out, it's a very good idea to check that the threads aren't stripped on it during any proper evaluation.

It's also fair game to clean up the instrument, if it's dirty.  And to place a tuner on the headstock. And to change out all the strings, especially if these are old. And to position the bridge properly. 

Things that one should _not do_ during an evaluation include filing the nut or the bridge, leveling the frets, sanding the bridge, scraping the neck, and anything else that cannot be undone!  That part should be obvious.

As for me, I even think it would be entirely fair to fit a new bridge to the mandolin top (but leave the original bridge untouched, in case it fails the evaluation and needs to be returned!), provided that this was done in a way that did not change the rest of the instrument.

The point is that the it should be possible to check out the instrument *in playing condition*, and to return the instrument in fundamentally the same condition (up to new strings) to the seller if it is not deemed acceptable.  Otherwise, what's the point of a 48-hour evaluation period?! Shipped mandolins are usually not playable straight out of the shipping box.  In most cases, the strings have been loosened, and the bridge often needs re-positioning.  The endpin may have been pulled.  The pickguard may be off.

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Bernie Daniel, 

Jim, 

mandotrout777, 

Petrus

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## delsbrother

Once you mess wih it, it's yours, and I would include restringing it. For example, if you put J74s on an old bowlback and it implodes, that's not the seller's fault. 

Most approval periods state the instrument must come back EXACTLY as sent. Will it be possible to tell if you've adjusted the truss rod? Probably not. But bridge and nut work? Congratulations, you just bought the instrument.

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jesserules, 

JEStanek

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## mandotrout777

> Once you mess wih it, it's yours, and I would include restringing it. For example, if you put J74s on an old bowlback and it implodes, that's not the seller's fault. 
> 
> Most approval periods state the instrument must come back EXACTLY as sent. Will it be possible to tell if you've adjusted the truss rod? Probably not. But bridge and nut work? Congratulations, you just bought the instrument.


This is why this discussion needs to happen. I think there are a lot of different misconceptions, on both sides, about "approval periods". In my opinion, if you put heavy strings on an old bowl back and it implodes, well then, it's yours. If you file the nut, or the bridge, or do something that's irreversible, it's yours. On and on.

Any seller who says you can't do ANYTHING, even change the strings, and even after reasonable discussion, isn't offering an approval period, they are just using it as a sales pitch, and the buyers need to be aware of this and ask the right questions up front.

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## Iron

> I've debated bringing this up for a while now and have decided I would like to see what others think. 
> 
> I recently bought a mandolin on a 48 hour approval agreement. The mandolin arrived and I initially thought it had potential, but the setup was extremely poor. There was an incredible amount of relief in the neck, the bridge saddle was all the way down, and the action was still a little on the high side. The strings were worn out and of the "flat top" variety which is not a string I would ever use. Since the mandolin was 13 years old and I knew it would need some setup work, I took it to my local luthier to have it checked out. Mainly I wanted to make sure the truss rod still functioned properly because I knew the bow in the neck was going to have to come out in order for me to keep it. When my luthier friend saw it he said it was a real mess. He checked out the truss rod, and it still functioned okay, so I had him make it more playable. Making the neck straighter made the action lower so it buzzed a bit and the saddle needed to be raised some. So I had him go ahead and do all that, plus I put on a set of J74s so I could hear the mandolin with the type of strings I typically use. The mandolin played much better, but the frets had a bit more wear than I liked (for the price I paid), and the bridge was poorly fit, you  could slide a business card underneath the tailpiece side of both bridge feet. Despite the mandolin's potential, I decided it wasn't quite what I was looking for and I didn't want to just keep it on the hope that it would be "better" after all the necessary work was done. So I decided to return it.
> 
> Now comes the interesting part. When I told the seller I wanted to return it, I also told him that my luthier had tweaked it some. He informed me that this was an unacceptable modification of the instrument and refused to take it back. I explained to him that I had a professional make the adjustments and that he was free to speak with him about it. I offered to have the instrument action returned to where it was upon my receipt of it. He still refused. We exchanged some emails and, I'm ashamed to say, I got rather unpleasant about it. Anyway, since he had my money, I didn't see any real option for me, so I ended up with the mandolin. I went ahead and had some work done on it, but the whole experience was just so sour that I couldn't really like the mandolin and I moved it along, even though it still showed some potential. 
> 
> So, what I would like to have people weigh in on is this: Is confirming that the truss rod still functions properly, on an older mandolin, an unacceptable modification that would void a 48-hour approval period? If it is, which I can kind of go either way on at this point, is it the responsibility of the seller to make sure a mandolin is adjusted properly prior to sending it out, or is it buyer beware and you better be sure to ask those questions before it gets shipped? Or... do you just adjust it while you have it and if you don't like it do you just put the action back where it was and send it back without telling the seller? 
> 
> In my own defense as far as buyer beware, I bought this from a reputable source and made the poor assumption that the mandolin would be set up well.
> ...


Hindsight is 20/20 but I think I would have done a couple things differnt #1 use Paypal and in the notes plainly stated seller agrees to a 48 hour unconditional approval period #2 I would have called him and asked if he wanted the mandolin back now or did he wanted an authorized luthier to look and tweak it
I have good luck buying online, don't let this episode spoil it for you.
Best

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Bernie Daniel, 

mandotrout777

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## Vernon Hughes

I thought I remembered a thread a while back (might not have been here) where a buyer bought an ebay instrument with a return policy and changed the very old rusty strings. Wasn't happy with it and decided to return it. Seller didn't want it back as it had been "altered" and went to ebay and paypal for negotiation. Long story short seller won as string changing fell under the heading of alteration. I sell my builds with a 48 hour approval and would rather a potential buyer contact me if something needs to be adjusted or addressed.I'd be happy to address the issues/setup/whatever for the customer and work it out.Rather not have someone else do something i'm perfectly capable of doing.It's called customer service!

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mandotrout777

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## mandotrout777

> I thought I remembered a thread a while back (might not have been here) where a buyer bought an ebay instrument with a return policy and changed the very old rusty strings. Wasn't happy with it and decided to return it. Seller didn't want it back as it had been "altered" and went to ebay and paypal for negotiation. Long story short seller won as string changing fell under the heading of alteration. I sell my builds with a 48 hour approval and would rather a potential buyer contact me if something needs to be adjusted or addressed.I'd be happy to address the issues/setup/whatever for the customer and work it out.Rather not have someone else do something i'm perfectly capable of doing.It's called customer service!


Not really the topic here, but any seller of used instruments who refuses to take a return just because a buyer changed old dead strings with similar new ones, is just looking for that "out", and is using the approval period as nothing more than a sales pitch. In that situation I might even go so far as accusing them of shipping it with dead strings for that purpose. Again, buyer beware and ask the questions up front.

I once tried out a mandolin in a store and the strings were shot. I asked them if they would put new ones on it so I could hear what that sounded like. They did. I didn't buy it. No problem. 

I don't think many, or maybe even any, of the issues I brought up would be a factor in a new build.

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nickster60

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## Jim

Comunication is the key, What you can and can't do has to be made clear and agreed upon. Changing strings is problematic. Can't tell if the mandolin is playable without 8 strings tuned to pitch, Tuning to pitch with any strings may cause instrument to self destruct. Same can be said of truss rod or any adjustable part. I say ask before making any changes.

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mandotrout777

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## mrmando

Adjusting a truss rod, changing the height of an adjustable bridge, even replacing strings all sound like things I'd be comfortable with as a guy who does a lot of Internet sales. The adjustments can be reversed. I guess if the strings had been Thomastiks I might ask the buyer to spring for a new set before sending the instrument back. 

But that's just me. I decided a while ago that the happiness of my customers was more important than their sheer numbers.

----------

mandotrout777

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## Jeff Mando

Great stuff, guys!  A few things went through my head regarding past buying and selling experiences.  1.  I remember working at a vintage guitar shop and a guy left an old lapsteel needing a jack replaced.  I replaced the jack and as a courtesy replaced the 40 year old strings--I didn't know he told the boss under no circumstances should the strings be replaced.  I didn't know, but when he came to pick up his lapsteel I could see he was crushed.  Those strings meant something to him.  That was years ago and I'm sure he is still not over it.  And in a weird way, I do understand.  Changing strings changes the tone and usually requires a new setup, action, etc...    2.  A wealthy collector I know, ordered 4 1970's Martin D-28's through eBay, with the idea of playing at home and choosing the best one and sending the other three back, taking advantage of eBay's no fault return policy....true story and as a seller I feel this is an abuse of an already too liberal return policy.  3.  I sold on eBay a 30's Stella guitar with a rare finish, but needing total restoration--neck set, etc for $800, describing it as a total project.  The man was thrilled to get it and had me send it directly to his luthier to begin restoration.  Upon receiving the repair quote of $2000, he promptly returned the guitar to me for a refund.  You can see in this case a luthier is not a friend to the seller and ruined my sale, quoting the need for black mold to be removed from "under" the braces, etc., you get the idea--I guess he had x-ray vision!  Basically, a luthier does not get paid unless he finds fault, right?  Would be nice if he just turned the truss rod and said, "no charge, have a nice day" at least once in a while...anyway, obviously as a seller I have no control over what a luthier charges, do I?  Another luthier could have quoted $125 for the same work, who knows?  Anyway, as a seller, I see a red flag when a customer talks "luthier".....  4.  Another common abuse of the return privelege is a dealer buying with a certain customer in mind and the customer passes on the instrument and the dealer makes up a reason for a return, when the real reason is the customer passed on it.  Sorry to be so long-winded, but as a seller I try not to sell anything I wouldn't own myself and do feel insulted when a customer is not thrilled with an instrument.  I do accept returns and want my customer to be happy, BUT this ain't Walmart, you can't return for buyer's remorse or if your wife yelled at you, or if you spent the insurance money on a new toy!  Most of this obviously doesn't apply to your situation, Jeff

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## delsbrother

Once you saw it had more issues than what was palatable to you, you needed to make the decision to return it then and there. That's all the "approval" period does for you. It protects you from buying something that was misrepresented. If you "see potential" in a beater - you buy it, and THEN explore its potential. You don't alter it and then cry foul when the seller won't take it back. You pays your money, you takes your chances.

The used car analogy is useful, but instead of comparing adjusting the action to adjusting the car seat, I'd say it was more like adjusting the alignment. It's the kind of thing you do to a car you OWN, not a car you're checking out.

----------

Austin Bob, 

jesserules, 

Jim, 

Peter Kurtze, 

Susan H.

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## Douglas McMullin

I ran into a similar issue once while selling a ukulele.  The buyer received the uke, kept it for 48hrs without communication, took it to a shop for an action adjustment, and then said he wanted to return it because there was a small hairline crack in the fret board wood.  I did not take the uke back based on it being past the 48hr period and because he had it worked on without checking with me first.  As to the crack, I was not aware of it when it was sent and at that point I had no way of knowing if it was pre-existing, if it happened in transport, or under the buyers care.

At the very least, I think a buyer has the responsibility of vetting any adjustment plans with the seller.  As a buyer, I would assume that the minute I start tweaking more than a bridge placement or maybe strings, that I am committed to keeping it.  If it needs more than that for me to be sure I want it, I would first have a conversation with the seller about the issues or I would send it back.

----------

mandotrout777

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## Dagger Gordon

I think this is an interesting discussion.

Personally I don't like to buy any instrument unless I'm pretty happy with it as I find it in the first place. I've been disappointed with instruments and indeed some makes that certainly had a good enough reputation but I guess weren't for me.

So ... potential?  

This seems to me to involve a certain leap of faith and it might well not be as good as you hoped, but if it's cheap enough it is probably worth a try. 

But if it looks worse than you thought when you see it my instinct would be to abandon the project at that point.  
As Eddie Sheehy noted "By going ahead on your own you gave him an " out" as he saw it and he took it."

Remember the seller does probably want shot of the thing and doesn't really want to have to deal with returning it or any other hassle.

----------

mandotrout777

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## Canoedad

Is everyone in agreement that bridge placement adjustments are OK as a matter of course?  Personally, I think I'd rather have someone tweak a truss rod or change strings before I'd want them shifting the bridge around.  Potential to mar the finish in the new location?  Heck yes! :Disbelief:

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## Ted Eschliman

Two things I see in this. The biggest is the notion that all repair techs are equal. One luthier's idea of "optimum" playing will be different than another's and I think it's dangerous to assume the buyer's "guy" has the only concept of performance acceptability. Standards are rarely universal. I wouldn't want another raising bridge height, changing to another brand of strings (flatwound to roundwound), or something major without knowing they wanted to do this in advance. If it comes back, I have to pay someone to reverse it all back.

Of course this all changes when you own the instrument, but during the approval period the instrument belongs to the seller. That's the second part. You have to pay for it before it's yours.

I've always seen the approval period as a courtesy of the seller. It would be be better to call it a "disapproval" trial, the final right to cancel the transaction in the sale, not the beginning.

----------

Eddie Sheehy, 

jesserules, 

Mandobar, 

mandotrout777, 

Scott Tichenor, 

Susan H.

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## Austin Bob

I agree this is an interesting discussion. While some feel that any change to the instrument (including strings) voids the return, others have a much more liberal view.

I guess this points to the need to put it in writing. If I were buying a used mandolin, the two things I would pay the most attention to are the action, and the condition of the tuners. If neither were in acceptable condition, I would notify the seller immediately.

I also don't like having to pay return shipping if the item is not as described. If the buy claims it's in very good condition, but when you receive it you find the instrument needs substantial work, why should you have to pay return shipping?

----------

mandotrout777

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## sachmo63

When you go into say Elderly to try out some guitars you wouldn't start changing the action would you? No, you wouldn't then what makes you think it's ok for a private seller. 

I think the buyer is just taking advantage of the situation. 

The "buyer" had every right to stick to his guns. Most adds say "exactly the same condition" not "take it to my luthier tweak it then decide it doesn't suit me"

This buyer is just silly and the he got hateful on the phone, my heart goes out to the seller.

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## Nick Gellie

Well, if you sees something wrong with it straightaway within the 48-h approval period, don't touch it.  Send it back and say it does not meet your buyer's specifications.   When a mandolin comes to you and it is not properly set up, the seller has no idea of what a good set up is.  He may have affected the instrument too while he has had it.

Being in Oz, it is too expensive to ask for a 48-h approval period, especially we have to pay for the 2-way trip.  I bought a fantastic Arches mandolin recently.  There were some slight teensy cracks in the lacquer where the tortoise shell binding met the ribs.  I discussed it with the buyer who I consider to be an honourable guy - he said that it had no cracks in the varnish when he had it.  It could have been dry humidity in transit travelling to  Oz that caused it.  I believed him and I still have the mando.

As always, buyer beware and take care!

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## spufman

I would consider the 48 hour period one to make sure you like the playability and tone of the instrument. Making that determination almost always requires at least a little setup tweaking. The things are designed to be adjusted within parameters that it sounds like your adjustments fell within. I see little point to an approval period if you need to make your judgement based on someone else's idea of comfortable setup. Changing strings, adjusting the truss rod and adjusting the bridge is not only acceptable but to be expected, in my opinion.

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mandotrout777

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## fatt-dad

I like what Ted said, "during the approval period the instrument belongs to the seller."  If you want to change anything, you'd need the owner's permission.  If you want to step into the shoes of the owner (i.e., not ask permission), then you are assuming ownership.

As a seller, I consider it my obligation for the instrument to arrive in a playable condition.  Sure, an owner may want to modify the setup or such to preference, but to me that's the owner's option.  So, step up to the plate and take ownership.  Alternately if it's not suited for playing upon arrival, send it back.

Sellers want to get rid of product.  Seller's don't want unnecessary uncertainty.  Seller's don't want to relist, 'cause it begs the question, "What happened to the first sale?"

So, I vote for, "Leave it alone!"

f-d

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mandotrout777

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## nickster60

I don't buy any instruments unless I can play them in person anymore. I have bought many violins over the years and some haven't had there strings changed in many years. I feel it is difficult to  access a instrument with old strings. The few mandolins I have purchased from the online sources including the cafe classifieds I have sold. They never seem to live up to my expectations and I am sure I am just fussy. I have a mandolin I am selling now I have grown weary of shipping instruments and all of the potential pitfalls involved.

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mandotrout777

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## terzinator

All good replies, so no need for a "+1" or whatever...

But bridge movement/placement can be tricky. Sometimes they shift during shipping, so I don't know that I'd worry too much about that, either as a seller or buyer. If the intonation is off, and moving the bridge would fix it, well, then... 

But you're right... anything that changes anything, even a string change (and, sure, a bridge adjustment, might as well), should be communicated first. Just to prevent what you're describing.

At least your guy responded and you had a conversation, albeit not with the outcome you would have liked. A few years ago, I bought an MT off the Classifieds that was described as a Wide-Nut and it was no such thing. (Checked serial # with Collings to confirm.) Contacted the seller, but he went off the grid. Nada. Bupkiss. 

THAT was s a bummer. Mando sounded great, though, so it wasn't a nightmare or anything.

When you're selling something, the last thing you wanna hear is that someone wants to send it back. The seller probably already spent the proceeds, at least in his mind, and now the hassle is back, and the dream is deferred. 

All you did was give him a "legitimate" reason to reject the return. And that was all he needed.

Some sellers, though, are stand-up folks. They want you to be happy, but more importantly, they see it as the honorable thing to make sure the item is presented honestly, described accurately, and priced fairly. Warts and all. We're all in this together, right?

Good communication BEFORE the sale often reveals many truths.

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mandotrout777, 

Vernon Hughes

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## Bernie Daniel

> Comunication is the key, What you can and can't do has to be made clear and agreed upon. Changing strings is problematic. Can't tell if the mandolin is playable without 8 strings tuned to pitch, Tuning to pitch with any strings may cause instrument to self destruct. Same can be said of truss rod or any adjustable part. I say ask before making any changes.


So keep the mandolin and then the first time you bring it to pitch after the 48 hour period has expired it self-destructs?  I don't like that plan!  :Smile:

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mandotrout777

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## Bernie Daniel

> I like what Ted said, "during the approval period the instrument belongs to the seller."  If you want to change anything, you'd need the owner's permission.  If you want to step into the shoes of the owner (i.e., not ask permission), then you are assuming ownership.
> 
> As a seller, I consider it my obligation for the instrument to arrive in a playable condition.  Sure, an owner may want to modify the setup or such to preference, but to me that's the owner's option.  So, step up to the plate and take ownership.  Alternately if it's not suited for playing upon arrival, send it back.
> 
> Sellers want to get rid of product.  Seller's don't want unnecessary uncertainty.  Seller's don't want to relist, 'cause it begs the question, "What happened to the first sale?"
> 
> So, I vote for, "Leave it alone!"
> 
> f-d


I assume bringing it up to pitch or putting in a string for a broken one is not on the list of no no? 

If sellers are going to be ultra picky on "their" instrument (I do agree it is theirs -- but I ASSUME they want to sell it or they would not have sent it out?) then they have to either lighten up or be prepared to get everything they send out back.  

IMO -- A seller who sends an instrument in non-playing, broken strings or badly out of set-up, of some other condition rendering it hard to play SHOULD get it back and THEY should have to pay for shipping both ways because they are not dealing in good faith.

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Austin Bob, 

mandotrout777

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## George R. Lane

I have hesitated to speak up on this matter, as the OP is a personal friend. I was at the music store when he showed the instrument to our local luthier , yes it was poorly set-up and did not play well. After the "Tweaking" it did play better, but the tone was a little on the thin side to me. I believe, as does Jeff, it was sent with no setup at all. Jeff has been very up front and honest in this whole incident. I know who the seller is and he has not lost one customer, but two.

The great thing that came out of this is Jeff now has his dream mandolin, a new Gibson F5L, and it is going to be a monster. I would like to thank the folks at the Mandolin Store for working with Jeff to make this bad experience into something good.

Jeff enjoy your new best friend.

----------

mandotrout777, 

robert.najlis

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## Jeff Mando

Years ago, when eBay first started, I tried to return an instrument and the seller said I do not accept returns, but you are welcome to list it yourself on eBay and I'm sure someone will buy it from you....I quickly understood that mail order presented it's own special set of "rules" in other words, not the same as an in person retail sale.  Basically, everything is tilted in the favor of the seller.  But, you have to remember a time before the internet when selection was limited to your own backyard or at least how far you were willing to travel.  So the selection is now amazing, but at a cost.

As a seller, both for upgrading my collection and making a side income, I have experienced that side, as well.  When, I buy an instrument to resell, I pay wholesale, when I sell it online, I sell it for retail (or hopefully something close to that), making a small profit.  When I accept a return, I am, in effect, buying the instrument back for retail, which I would never do normally.  That is called, 'the cost of doing business."  If I pay for the return shipping, then I have paid more than retail.  That's why with most returns, the customer pays shipping.  Or to make them think twice about returning it in the first place.  Fortunately, these are rare situations, normally the buyer loves the instrument and usually finds it to be better than I have described and everyone is happy.

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## AlanN

What this whole ordeal underscores is the need to know everything about the instrument _before_ it actually ships out. Every minute detail, blem, mark, nick, scrape, neck angle, condition of frets, strings....lordy.

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## wsugai

There are some replies that say it better than I did earlier, but the conclusion I draw from this thread (so far, anyway) is that there are a lot of people who shouldn't be buying mail order because they are unwilling to tolerate the underlying risk that is built into a remote transaction. If you want to sleep peacefully, always assume that any remote transaction is an as-is/where-is deal, regardless of the fine print or the reputation of the dealer. A good reputation only affects the odds of satisfaction, not the true underlying risk of dealing remotely.

----------

Austin Bob, 

delsbrother

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## Bernie Daniel

> What this whole ordeal underscores is the need to know everything about the instrument _before_ it actually ships out. Every minute detail, blem, mark, nick, scrape, neck angle, condition of frets, strings....lordy.


Yes and buy from individuals with a track record (100% score many eBay transactions), pay with something like PayPal that might back you up in a dispute or buy through something like the Mandolin Cafe Classifieds where there is monitoring and protection.  I bought one instrument off Craig's list years ago but only after a couple of detailed conversations with the buyer who I was 99% certain was a good straight up seller -- I got a great guitar out of it.  I'd never do Craig's list anymore without insisting on talking to the seller.

Sellers who say I don't know a thing about this instrument are not generally a good prospect to buy from IMO.   For example if I'm buying a flat top guitar and the seller can't do a few simple tests with a straight edge on the neck, run it out to see if it clears the bridge base, check for belly up behind the bridge, measure the action, and check that the truss is free. I just assume the guitar might come needing a neck reset and I'm not interested.

Further, IMO, if you are a seller the instrument should arrive for the buyer properly packed and in good playing condition, preferably with new or relatively new strings and properly set up otherwise you are unfairly wasting the buyer's time and money in shipping fees.

----------

Fred Young, 

mandotrout777, 

Vernon Hughes

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## sgarrity

And this is why I like doing business with people I know. If I don't have a connection with you either through the cafe or other musical sites, etc then we'll be having a long phone call before any money changes hands. And I always encourage people buying for me to call so we can talk. I want everything out in the open. The acoustic music world is wayyyy too small to get a bad reputation over selling an instrument. Karma is indeed a, well you know......

From the sounds of it this guy had a piece of junk he was trying to pawn off on someone else. Changing the strings is altering the mandolin?  That is beyond ridiculous. As a seller I almost always put new strings on an instrument before I ship it. On occasion I've just put a new set in the case so the buyer can change  them if he wants to. But I'm a seller that genuinely wants my buyers to be happy!

----------

almeriastrings, 

David Rambo, 

mandotrout777, 

Vernon Hughes

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## sblock

> There are some replies that say it better than I did earlier, but the conclusion I draw from this thread (so far, anyway) is that there are a lot of people who shouldn't be buying mail order because they are unwilling to tolerate the underlying risk that is built into a remote transaction. If you want to sleep peacefully, always assume that any remote transaction is an as-is/where-is deal, regardless of the fine print or the reputation of the dealer. A good reputation only affects the odds of satisfaction, not the true underlying risk of dealing remotely.


Like it our not, I'm afraid that buying remotely is a fact of life in today's Internet world.  It simply will not do to suggest that people who are not willing to accept "wild west" rules avoid all such transactions. If anything, remote transactions are likely to become _more_, not less, prevalent in the years to come.  And slowly -- _perhaps too slowly!_ -- the rules are getting more regularized, more apparent, and better understood by buyers and sellers alike.  We are quickly moving past the "wild west," and that is a Good Thing.

When it comes to mandolins, remote transactions are probably more the rule than the exception for many MC readers. We have little choice about this, actually. The selection of good mandolins in most local music stores is woefully small, and often non-existent.  There are perhaps only a dozen or so music shops in the entire country that offer a decent range of choices, particularly on the high end of the spectrum (Mandolin Store, Elderly, Mandolin Bros., Gryphon, Carter Vintage, Gruhns, Fiddler's Green, Fifth String, Janet Davis, and so on -- add your favorites to this list, and you will still find fewer than one per U.S. state, on average).  And even then, the range of options is WAY larger by remote sale.  And let's not forget that many of these stores also do a good share of their business via remote sales, not just walk-in customers.  It is no longer realistic to suggest to folks that they have to go to a store to purchase an instrument.  And it is it equally unrealistic to tell them that "all bets are off" if they try to buy remotely.  Buyer and seller protections do exist, even if these are still evolving.  And, I'd wager, most mandolin sales go pretty smoothly -- thanks, in no small part, to the good characters of both the buyer and seller.

A lot of us have had good experience with such transactions, in fact.  My favorite mandolin was purchased from the Classified right here on the MC -- and many others here can make that same claim.  Most high-end mandolins, I'd wager, change hands without even passing through a music store.  They come new from luthiers, and used from other musicians.  And they come with honest approval periods, where the "rules" are usually understood, at least in general.  It's never been: "Hey buddy, you changed a string, so now you just bought it!"  That's not the music world I live in, and it's not the world I want to live in.

Just as you wrote, most purchases of used musical instruments are, in fact, "as is" deals.  All the more reason to have meaningful approval periods, I say. 

YES, it is _absolutely imperative_ for the buyer to communicate with the seller, especially about the terms of any approval period. But it is equally imperative for the seller to allow the buyer to make "reasonable" adjustments that are _fully reversible and do not affect the instrument in any material way_ during the approval period.  Otherwise, the approval period is meaningless. Restringing a mandolin that has dead strings, and positioning the bridge, are completely reasonable, provided that the string gauges used are appropriate for the instrument. In the event that the mandolin is deemed unacceptable and returned, the seller gets back an instrument that is in no way inferior (and perhaps even a bit superior) to the one he sent out.  

Some of the posters on this thread seem to forget that many mandolins are shipped today with loosened strings -- which is good, because it protects the headstock! -- and that these strings must be brought up to pitch.  The bridge may well have moved during shipment with loose strings.  In fact, many mandolins are shipped out with their bridges entirely off.  Any many others have never had the bridge height properly set.  To suggest, as some here have done, that re-positioning the bridge, tightening the strings to pitch, or adjusting the bridge to the proper height should somehow void an approval period is downright ridiculous, in my personal opinion. What are you folks thinking?!  Sorry, but it had to be said.  Furthermore, changing out broken -- or replacing missing -- strings is equally not a valid reason to void an approval.  

When I last sold a (higher end) mandolin on the MC, I even provided a new set of strings for the prospective buyer, so he could hear what the mandolin really should sound like.  I did NOT install the strings, however, because I shipped it with the old strings, loosened.  I just put a new set for him in the case. That way, he wouldn't have to worry about bringing the old set up to pitch and having something snap and break. I wanted him to hear the instrument at its very best.  And he did. And he loved the mandolin.

What we're hearing about here is shenanigans.  Any seller who maintains that the approval period is somehow voided by changing the strings or positioning the bridge is looking to foist the instrument upon the buyer. He is not looking to find a happy home for his instrument, and he is not honoring the spirit of an approval period. Those sellers are not to be admired, and we should, very properly, condemn them in these pages. That's my opinion.

----------

almeriastrings, 

mandotrout777, 

Zissou Intern

----------


## mandotrout777

> Two things I see in this. The biggest is the notion that all repair techs are equal. One luthier's idea of "optimum" playing will be different than another's and I think it's dangerous to assume the buyer's "guy" has the only concept of performance acceptability. Standards are rarely universal. I wouldn't want another raising bridge height, changing to another brand of strings (flatwound to roundwound), or something major without knowing they wanted to do this in advance. If it comes back, I have to pay someone to reverse it all back.
> 
> Of course this all changes when you own the instrument, but during the approval period the instrument belongs to the seller. That's the second part. You have to pay for it before it's yours.
> 
> I've always seen the approval period as a courtesy of the seller. It would be be better to call it a "disapproval" trial, the final right to cancel the transaction in the sale, not the beginning.


Yes, but you are also making the assumption that a reputable, knowledgable, dealer is going to have the setup at least in the ballpark. This is the only time I've bought a used instrument that was so out of whack. Yes, I should have immediately returned it because the neck was so bowed. I guess I should have assumed the truss rod just didn't work. But who's going to pay the return shipping in that situation? You can see why, wanting the purchase to work out, and hoping that it just needed an adjustment, I went ahead and had the truss rod checked. Again, I've conceded that perhaps I shouldn't have done this, but then again, nothing I did was irreversible. I offered to put it back the way it was. The seller refused it. As others have said, if I had asked him to pay the return shipping because it was unplayable, he might have told me to go ahead and have it adjusted, we'll never know. However, that scenario also implies that he just saw the "out" and took it. Again, we'll never know.

Frankly I'm surprised at the number of experienced sellers who seem willing to send a mandolin out "on approval", possibly knowing that it needs new strings, or a setup, or whatever, and expecting the seller to take it or leave it, but have to pay for the return shipping. You can call that a "courtesy" if you want, but in my opinion it just borders on being a scam.

There are reputable dealers out there where you can confidently buy a used mandolin online and not have to worry about the level of minutiae that's been discussed in this thread. One of those is The Mandolin Store. Every instrument I've bought from them has been well set up, checked out, and ready to go. They provide the level of service that I think a customer spending any amount of money should be allowed to expect. I'm sure there are others out there, Elderly, Gruhns, Carters, etc. etc. It's not impossible.

----------


## Steve Zawacki

Have not had a lot of completed mandolin sales/trades (eight) off the Classifieds with commercial sellers and fellow amateurs.   Each transaction involved a lot of photos being passed and multiple phone calls getting into every nit-picking thing about the instrument in question.  I tend to over-disclose, and prefer dealing with folk who do the same - it just makes for an easier deal.  One trade even involved a Skype call demonstrating the instruments to be traded and that turned into a mini-jam.  All in all, there was no surprise in any transaction and any approval period was a formality which was unnecessary.  All transactions involving cash used PayPal.

There were a couple of times where the "due diligence" communications (photos, calls) ended up as a no-deal because of some issue.  However, that should be expected and better the deal I missed than the risk taken which backfired. There is no shortage of used instruments out there and every day brings a new crop of interesting stuff.  

EBay to me is much riskier, but if the seller is proud of his product, getting all the desired info (including more photos and data) that's rarely a problem.  I bought one mandolin that way and it's a favorite.  Any seller that balks at providing the info I ask is simply putting up a red light to the transaction.

----------

mandotrout777

----------


## sgarrity

I wonder what people would think if they went to test drive a car and when they started to adjust the seat and mirrors the salesman said, "You adjust it,you bought it!"

----------


## delsbrother

> Yes, but you are also making the assumption that a reputable, knowledgable, dealer is going to have the setup at least in the ballpark. This is the only time I've bought a used instrument that was so out of whack. Yes, I should have immediately returned it because the neck was so bowed. I guess I should have assumed the truss rod just didn't work. But who's going to pay the return shipping in that situation? You can see why, wanting the purchase to work out, and hoping that it just needed an adjustment, I went ahead and had the truss rod checked. Again, I've conceded that perhaps I shouldn't have done this, but then again, nothing I did was irreversible. I offered to put it back the way it was. The seller refused it. As others have said, if I had asked him to pay the return shipping because it was unplayable, he might have told me to go ahead and have it adjusted, we'll never know. However, that scenario also implies that he just saw the "out" and took it. Again, we'll never know.


You're doing a LOT of assuming there. Also, look at it from the seller's perspective. Why should he trust you to be able to "put it back exactly the way it was"? He can't vet your repairman, nor should he have to. 

This all boils down to an ethics question, but instead of wasting a lot of breath trying to decide whose ethics are "better" or "right" you should realize that assuming the seller's ethics are the same as yours was YOUR mistake. 

As far as losing you as a future customer.. He was going to lose you anyway, even if he took back the instrument. So why would he want to lose money as well? This may all seem super-shady to some of you, but I've had much worse happen with ebay transactions. This business can be really cutthroat at times. Best to keep your head up.

----------

Mike Bunting, 

Petrus

----------


## mandotrout777

> You're doing a LOT of assuming there. Also, look at it from the seller's perspective. Why should he trust you to be able to "put it back exactly the way it was"? He can't vet your repairman, nor should he have to. 
> 
> This all boils down to an ethics question, but instead of wasting a lot of breath trying to decide whose ethics are "better" or "right" you should realize that assuming the seller's ethics are the same as yours was YOUR mistake. 
> 
> As far as losing you as a future customer.. He was going to lose you anyway, even if he took back the instrument. So why would he want to lose money as well? This may all seem super-shady to some of you, but I've had much worse happen with ebay transactions. This business can be really cutthroat at times. Best to keep your head up.


I have freely admitted that I made some errors in this deal. There are valid points on all sides. I think it's important for both sides to be aware of the potential point of view of the other and have some communication. I believe there are some "wild west" mentality folks out there who might be using this whole approval period thing to make sales without explicitly stating that even something as simple as changing the strings is going be a modification that "voids" the approval period. These same people, not wanting to get caught up in this kind of thing, might gladly change the strings for you, adjust the action, or whatever, BEFORE they ship it, but only if you ask for it. So I say, ask the questions up front so you can truly evaluate the instrument when you get it, and be able to return it if it's not what your looking for tonally. Because, let's face it, you only get it for "evaluation" after the seller has your money. So they not only still own the instrument during the approval period, they also have your hard earned cash, and unless you specifically ask for it, up front, to be set up so that you can fairly evaluate it, you might well end up owning an instrument you would otherwise not keep, or at best have to pay to ship it back because you couldn't perform a real evaluation.

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## Bernie Daniel

> And this is why I like doing business with people I know. If I don't have a connection with you either through the cafe or other musical sites, etc then we'll be having a long phone call before any money changes hands. And I always encourage people buying for me to call so we can talk. I want everything out in the open. The acoustic music world is wayyyy too small to get a bad reputation over selling an instrument. Karma is indeed a, well you know......
> 
> From the sounds of it this guy had a piece of junk he was trying to pawn off on someone else. Changing the strings is altering the mandolin?  That is beyond ridiculous. As a seller I almost always put new strings on an instrument before I ship it. On occasion I've just put a new set in the case so the buyer can change  them if he wants to. But I'm a seller that genuinely wants my buyers to be happy!


I agree!

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## wsugai

"Caveat emptor"

     --an old saying





> Like it our not, I'm afraid that buying remotely is a fact of life in today's Internet world.  It simply will not do to suggest that people who are not willing to accept "wild west" rules avoid all such transactions. If anything, remote transactions are likely to become _more_, not less, prevalent in the years to come.  And slowly -- _perhaps too slowly!_ -- the rules are getting more regularized, more apparent, and better understood by buyers and sellers alike.  We are quickly moving past the "wild west," and that is a Good Thing.
> 
> When it comes to mandolins, remote transactions are probably more the rule than the exception for many MC readers. We have little choice about this, actually. The selection of good mandolins in most local music stores is woefully small, and often non-existent.  There are perhaps only a dozen or so music shops in the entire country that offer a decent range of choices, particularly on the high end of the spectrum (Mandolin Store, Elderly, Mandolin Bros., Gryphon, Carter Vintage, Gruhns, Fiddler's Green, Fifth String, Janet Davis, and so on -- add your favorites to this list, and you will still find fewer than one per U.S. state, on average).  And even then, the range of options is WAY larger by remote sale.  And let's not forget that many of these stores also do a good share of their business via remote sales, not just walk-in customers.  It is no longer realistic to suggest to folks that they have to go to a store to purchase an instrument.  And it is it equally unrealistic to tell them that "all bets are off" if they try to buy remotely.  Buyer and seller protections do exist, even if these are still evolving.  And, I'd wager, most mandolin sales go pretty smoothly -- thanks, in no small part, to the good characters of both the buyer and seller.
> 
> A lot of us have had good experience with such transactions, in fact.  My favorite mandolin was purchased from the Classified right here on the MC -- and many others here can make that same claim.  Most high-end mandolins, I'd wager, change hands without even passing through a music store.  They come new from luthiers, and used from other musicians.  And they come with honest approval periods, where the "rules" are usually understood, at least in general.  It's never been: "Hey buddy, you changed a string, so now you just bought it!"  That's not the music world I live in, and it's not the world I want to live in.
> 
> Just as you wrote, most purchases of used musical instruments are, in fact, "as is" deals.  All the more reason to have meaningful approval periods, I say. 
> 
> YES, it is _absolutely imperative_ for the buyer to communicate with the seller, especially about the terms of any approval period. But it is equally imperative for the seller to allow the buyer to make "reasonable" adjustments that are _fully reversible and do not affect the instrument in any material way_ during the approval period.  Otherwise, the approval period is meaningless. Restringing a mandolin that has dead strings, and positioning the bridge, are completely reasonable, provided that the string gauges used are appropriate for the instrument. In the event that the mandolin is deemed unacceptable and returned, the seller gets back an instrument that is in no way inferior (and perhaps even a bit superior) to the one he sent out.  
> ...

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## mtucker

> I wonder what people would think if they went to test drive a car


I have a slight twist on your test drive …it's part of my valuable cars and expensive mando's theory…

I think people test drive cars, especially valuable or new expensive ones, fully knowing they aren't going to ever buy the car… and like that car, there are people here that test drive high-end mandolins with the same intention, a few hundred for shipping in exchange for 48 hours of play. It's like renting a Viper for the weekend! I drove, I drove it, but I didn't bond with it, so I didn't buy it…!

----------

Mandobar

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## sgarrity

I'm certain that happens but I don't think it is a widespread issue. That's why I talk on the phone with anybody I'm about to have a transaction with. I wonder if Skype and FaceTime could also be used here so the buyer and seller could have a face to face conversation with mandolin in hand. I am not into shipping mandolins to people that just want to see if they like it or not. 

There is a percentage of both buyers and sellers out there that will always be dishonest. Fortunately for us I think that's a very small number in the mandolin world, especially on this site!

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mandotrout777

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## fatt-dad

I think most folks are pursuing a committed relationship when they purchase a mandolin.  I mean there are flippers, who buy to resell, but they are still looking to complete the purchase.  I somehow likened mtucker's suggestion to the john of a streetwalker.

f-d

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## ides1056

My only bad experience in this regard was an archtop guitar in "excellent condition" I had sent on 48 hour approval only to find there were two cracks in the top above the F holes that did not show in the photos, and went unmentioned in my discussions with the seller the several times we talked.  Returned the instrument because its condition did not qualify as excellent, and had to eat the shipping. I won't buy from them again.

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## Mike Bunting

> I'm certain that happens but I don't think it is a widespread issue. That's why I talk on the phone with anybody I'm about to have a transaction with. I wonder if Skype and FaceTime could also be used here so the buyer and seller could have a face to face conversation with mandolin in hand. I am not into shipping mandolins to people that just want to see if they like it or not. 
> 
> There is a percentage of both buyers and sellers out there that will always be dishonest. Fortunately for us I think that's a very small number in the mandolin world, especially on this site!


I'll second the use of Skype. My last purchase was a Duff from Australia and we spent more than a few hours on the Skype machine (I've had the ax for more than a month but even the other day we spent 1 1/2 hours on the horn) discussing mandolins and general "stuff". He establishes a great relationship with his customers and I was totally confident the arrival in Canada of the mandolin would be an auspicious day. I was not disappointed, stunning playability and tone. I guess that my point is that if you leave out the human contact part of any relationship, business or otherwise, you should not be surprised if difficulties occur.

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sgarrity

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## mtucker

> I somehow likened mtucker's suggestion to the john of a streetwalker.f-d


I agree that most folks want to follow through with the purchase but I've been _pimped_ a few times by people I've talked with in person and by phone. I'm getting better at detecting /disqualifying them. They're out there in little guitar land .. :Laughing:

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fatt-dad

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## Josh Levine

I really will only purchase used as I don't want to lose the markup when I sell. Knowing what I want and talking with the seller has been helpful. I have bought a few from Guitar Center too. I love their 30 day return policy. You can return to them no questions asked if you are not satisfied. They don't know jack about mandolin setups anyways...

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## Mandobar

You'd be surprised at how many people have the reputation as "renters"......they plunk down their credit cards, pay the shipping, etc.  One dealer told me a story recently about someone who "bought" and returned three instruments in a row.  The last one came back damaged, and that was the end of the cycle.

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## sblock

> You'd be surprised at how many people have the reputation as "renters"......they plunk down their credit cards, pay the shipping, etc.  One dealer told me a story recently about someone who "bought" and returned three instruments in a row.  The last one came back damaged, and that was the end of the cycle.


Yes, I would be surprised.  I don't think this is typical, at all. If the buyer pays for the return shipping and insurance on an instrument, then it would generally cost him (or her) between $60 and $200 to carry out the approval examination (or "rental", to use your words), depending on how far the instrument traveled.  Plus, he (or she) would have to put in the labor to pack it all up again.  And then to transport it to UPS or FedEx (or arrange for a pickup). Plus, if the carton was no longer usable, there may be some additional packaging costs. That's a pretty expensive and inconvenient "rental," all considered, given that the instrument is just held for one or two days, tops.  Buying and returning the three instruments in a row, as you mentioned above, would have cost this prospective buyer between $180 and $600, depending.  That's a good chunk of money wasted! There may be a few folks who choose to operate this way, and pay the penalty, but that is hardly the norm.  My own belief is that having to pay for all the return shipment costs is enough of a disincentive that most would-be buyers will avoid abusing the approval process in this way.  Yes, I suppose it can and does happen, but these bizarre horror stories are highly unusual.  Your "dealer's" story may have referred to a local buyer, in fact, and not to a remote (mail-order) transaction. I bet it happens a whole lot more often when the client suffers no loss for the return!

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## sgarrity

I know that dealers have this WAY worse than individual sellers.  It's happened to me in the past.  Just part of the fun of selling instruments online!!!  Do ya wonder why I've all but stopped?  Until the next time anyway....  :Wink:

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## Jeff Mando

The renting thing scares me.  We're not talking roller skates, we're talking fragile instruments that can be damaged, not only by careless packing, but by accidents in shipping.  I think I liked it better when instruments stayed in their own hometowns.....

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## mtucker

> Yes, I would be surprised.  I don't think this is typical, at all. If the buyer pays for the return shipping and insurance on an instrument, then it would generally cost him (or her) between $60 and $200 to carry out the approval examination (or "rental", to use your words)


Like Mary said... Yes, you would be surprised!  It's no different than renting a Ferrari for the night, a few hundred $$ for a few hours of pure ecstasy that you'd otherwise never have a shot at, and you've played yourself a Gil for the weekend … 48 hour returns accepted...  :Smile:

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## jesserules

> I recently bought a mandolin on a 48 hour approval agreement. The mandolin arrived and I initially thought it had potential, but the setup was extremely poor. There was an incredible amount of relief in the neck, the bridge saddle was all the way down, and the action was still a little on the high side. The strings were worn out and of the "flat top" variety which is not a string I would ever use. Since the mandolin was 13 years old and I knew it would need some setup work, I took it to my local luthier to have it checked out. Mainly I wanted to make sure the truss rod still functioned properly because I knew the bow in the neck was going to have to come out in order for me to keep it. When my luthier friend saw it he said it was a real mess. He checked out the truss rod, and it still functioned okay, so I had him make it more playable. Making the neck straighter made the action lower so it buzzed a bit and the saddle needed to be raised some. So I had him go ahead and do all that, plus I put on a set of J74s so I could hear the mandolin with the type of strings I typically use. The mandolin played much better, but the frets had a bit more wear than I liked (for the price I paid), and the bridge was poorly fit, you  could slide a business card underneath the tailpiece side of both bridge feet. Despite the mandolin's potential, I decided it wasn't quite what I was looking for and I didn't want to just keep it on the hope that it would be "better" after all the necessary work was done. So I decided to return it.
> 
> Now comes the interesting part. When I told the seller I wanted to return it, I also told him that my luthier had tweaked it some. . I went ahead and had some work done on it, but the whole experience was just so sour that I couldn't really like the mandolin and *I moved it along*, even though it still showed some potential.



Nothing here indicates that the OP thought the mandolin in question was "a piece of junk".  And notice the highlighted part ...

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## mandotrout777

> Nothing here indicates that the OP thought the mandolin in question was "a piece of junk".  And notice the highlighted part ...


Not sure what you're getting at with the highlighting. I put some money into it, including a fret dress and a little work on the bridge fit, and traded it for something better. It was in much better shape than when I received it when I "moved it along".

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## Mandobar

The dealer's story was NOT a local buyer.  The buyer paid shipping each time, both ways.  In fact, he was attempting to go a fourth round on the insanity, when the dealer discovered that the third instrument was damaged, and cut him off.  The shipping costs do not deter folks from exhibiting this behavior.  I can remember a very expensive guitar ($12k plus) at Cotten Music a few years back.  Two individuals "purchased" it and returned it, until the store owner refused to ship it out again.  So, this behavior is not as uncommon as some would like to think.  

I've personally witnessed two individuals try and return instruments they had for several weeks, one with a pick-up installed after the fact, and another who had his "luthier" work on the frets (his attempt to return the instrument was over a month after he'd purchased it).  There was nothing wrong with the frets when he bought it, but there sure was afterwards.  





> Yes, I would be surprised.  I don't think this is typical, at all. If the buyer pays for the return shipping and insurance on an instrument, then it would generally cost him (or her) between $60 and $200 to carry out the approval examination (or "rental", to use your words), depending on how far the instrument traveled.  Plus, he (or she) would have to put in the labor to pack it all up again.  And then to transport it to UPS or FedEx (or arrange for a pickup). Plus, if the carton was no longer usable, there may be some additional packaging costs. That's a pretty expensive and inconvenient "rental," all considered, given that the instrument is just held for one or two days, tops.  Buying and returning the three instruments in a row, as you mentioned above, would have cost this prospective buyer between $180 and $600, depending.  That's a good chunk of money wasted! There may be a few folks who choose to operate this way, and pay the penalty, but that is hardly the norm.  My own belief is that having to pay for all the return shipment costs is enough of a disincentive that most would-be buyers will avoid abusing the approval process in this way.  Yes, I suppose it can and does happen, but these bizarre horror stories are highly unusual.  Your "dealer's" story may have referred to a local buyer, in fact, and not to a remote (mail-order) transaction. I bet it happens a whole lot more often when the client suffers no loss for the return!

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## Petrus

I don't think eBay favors sellers over buyers at all. As it has evolved, eBay has gradually added buyer protections, which is a good thing, while also making life more difficult for sellers (the latest thing being the new fee changes they put into effect on May 1, to discourage fixed priced listings and encourage more auctions.)  There is a lot of leeway for purchasers to take advantage of eBay's loose interpretation of "item not as described" to make trouble for honest sellers.  That and their relationship with PayPal, where they can hold onto your money for an arbitrary period of time after the conclusion of a sale before releasing it (setting themselves up as an escrow service, even while providing the auction platform itself) have made eBay increasingly problematical.  Read the eBay members' forum discussions ... there is a lot of dissatisfaction and more and more people are migrating to other platforms like Etsy, etc.

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## AlanN

> I know that dealers have this WAY worse than individual sellers.  It's happened to me in the past.  Just part of the fun of selling instruments online!!!  Do ya wonder why I've all but stopped?  Until the next time anyway....


I ordered an instrument through the at-the-time domestic dealer/agent handling the sales/ordering of this particular mandolin maker's wares. When I received the mandolin, there was an odd finish scratch on the top under the strings. I asked the dealer/agent about it, he plead ignorance. Shortly after that, I saw the builder at IBMA and showed him the mandolin. He said no way did the mandolin leave his shop like that. I believed one over the other, and it soured my faith in the other. 

Non-in-person instrument sales are a recipe for disappointment or worse.

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nickster60

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## Stephen Perry

I'm not going to weigh in on this particular instance.  

I will point out that if one is going to buy and sell moderately expensive things, and generally get by in life, it is extremely useful to have a friendly or owes you favors business-oriented attorney at the end of a phone line.  My general advise to my clients is to not sign anything or spend a lot of money on anything without talking to me first.  On the other hand, I can make a good deal of money fixing things up on the back end.

I also strongly suggest learning basic contract law and the uniform commercial code.  Especially concerning the law about putting instruments into a shop for consignment sale or repair.

Have fun!

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## Atlanta Mando Mike

I think doing any work on the mandolin without getting permission is a deal breaker in terms of returns, regardless of how little.  I understand the issues brought up by the buyer but nothing should be changed about a mandolin without permission that you don't own, period.  Just my view.

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jesserules

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## sblock

> I think doing any work on the mandolin without getting permission is a deal breaker in terms of returns, regardless of how little.  I understand the issues brought up by the buyer but nothing should be changed about a mandolin without permission that you don't own, period.  Just my view.


Yes, that's all good and well, but the devil -- as always -- is in the details.  What, exactly do you mean by "doing any work?" At the risk of _reductio ad absurdum_, it takes work to turn the tuning pegs.  Is tuning the strings up to pitch doing work?  What about changing out the strings? How about adjusting the bridge position?  The bridge height?  How about removing the end pin and looking inside? Or taking off the pickguard? Or adjusting the truss rod?  All these things can be reversed.

I think nearly all of us can agree that doing things like filing the nut or saddle, or sanding the bridge, or having fretwork performed is *taking it too far*:  these are mainly irreversible alterations to the material instrument.  But what about other, completely reversible changes?  Some of them are absolutely necessary, in fact, if the instrument is to be played and evaluated properly.  And yet we have people writing into this forum suggesting that even replacing strings, or moving the bridge, should void the approval period. (Which I think is completely absurd, but that's my opinion.)

The debate, so to speak, is about what types of "work" are considered fair and which ones are not.  I myself draw the line when then change cannot be easily undone, so that the instrument can no longer be restored, in principle, to the way it was received.

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## wsugai

If you truly believe that completely restringing the instrument is so innocuous, try going on over to Elderly, pull a mando off the wall, and see what they say when you tell them, "I'm just going to take this mando into one of your back rooms, out of your sight, and restring it to see if it sounds like something I'd like to buy. If not, then I'll reverse this by restringing it with the old strings." If it's so completely reasonable to do that, why, they shouldn't have any objection to that at all. :Smile: 




> Yes, that's all good and well, but the devil -- as always -- is in the details.  What, exactly do you mean by "doing any work?" At the risk of _reductio ad absurdum_, it takes work to turn the tuning pegs.  Is tuning the strings up to pitch doing work?  What about changing out the strings? How about adjusting the bridge position?  The bridge height?  How about removing the end pin and looking inside? Or taking off the pickguard? Or adjusting the truss rod?  All these things can be reversed.
> 
> I think nearly all of us can agree that doing things like filing the nut or saddle, or sanding the bridge, or having fretwork performed is *taking it too far*:  these are mainly irreversible alterations to the material instrument.  But what about other, completely reversible changes?  Some of them are absolutely necessary, in fact, if the instrument is to be played and evaluated properly.  And yet we have people writing into this forum suggesting that even replacing strings, or moving the bridge, should void the approval period. (Which I think is completely absurd, but that's my opinion.)
> 
> The debate, so to speak, is about what types of "work" are considered fair and which ones are not.  I myself draw the line when then change cannot be easily undone, so that the instrument can no longer be restored, in principle, to the way it was received.

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## Canoedad

> If you truly believe that completely restringing the instrument is so innocuous, try going on over to Elderly, pull a mando off the wall, and see what they say when you tell them, "I'm just going to take this mando into one of your back rooms, out of your sight, and restring it to see if it sounds like something I'd like to buy. If not, then I'll reverse this by restringing it with the old strings." If it's so completely reasonable to do that, why, they shouldn't have any objection to that at all.


A better analogy (though still kind of silly) would be to walk into Elderly, tell them that you're going to hand them 100 percent of the purchase price of the instrument to hold onto while you evaluate it.  And you further tell them that they can deduct any damage *or simply keep the full amount* if you do any damage to the instrument while you evaluate it.   In this hypothetical/analogy you then proceed to change the strings.  

Silly?  Sure.  But closer to the situations being discussed.  Elderly doesn't do business like that.  There probably isn't much of a brick and mortar business model for it either.  Who's going to walk in and plunk down all the purchase money before they try?  

All that said, I would not want anyone changing the strings on a flawless mandolin.  They might scratch or otherwise damage it.  But if they did, I've got their money and we'd have a problem to work out.

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## sblock

> If you truly believe that completely restringing the instrument is so innocuous, try going on over to Elderly, pull a mando off the wall, and see what they say when you tell them, "I'm just going to take this mando into one of your back rooms, out of your sight, and restring it to see if it sounds like something I'd like to buy. If not, then I'll reverse this by restringing it with the old strings." If it's so completely reasonable to do that, why, they shouldn't have any objection to that at all.


Alas, I'm not sure you get it. Sorry, but your comparison is inappropriate and completely off-base, and it therefore poses a false dichotomy. _Elderly Instruments is a fine establishment, and it would not offer me a mandolin with dead, or broken, or loose strings to test in the first place!_  In fact, they do a great job of keeping their instruments in excellent playing condition in the showroom!  Ditto for the set-up. Furthermore, if I were visiting their showroom and serious about buying a particular model, and made a special request to change the strings (at my expense) to some other set, so I could evaluate the mandolin that way, I have little doubt that they would accommodate me. They have absolutely terrific customer service.

By contrast, many mandolins purchased remotely, particularly used instruments obtained from private parties, are NOT in excellent playing condition. First and foremost, they are typically shipped with old, corroded, or completely dead strings. Some of the strings may even be missing altogether. Some of the strings might even be the wrong gauge (I have seen this, including an E string where the A should be).  Furthermore, the strings are usually loosened for shipment -- which is the right thing to do! -- and these may not come back up to pitch without breaking, especially if they're shot.  Many of us who are experienced in this area have snapped the occasional E-string doing this, through no fault of our own.  Also, the bridge may well have moved during shipment or have been taken off altogether.  This is to be expected.  This is normal for mandolins.  (But you don't seem to understand that.)

The point to grasp is that the instrument, as it arrives, is _simply not playable in such a condition_, and cannot be evaluated during an approval period. To suggest, as you have, that it's not acceptable to put on a fresh set of strings, or to replace any broken ones, is completely absurd, to my way of thinking. It's also at variance with common practice.  I _want_ the shipper to loosen the mandolin strings before he sends it, to protect the instrument against damage _en route_! I fully _expect_ to have to tune it up to pitch when I get it, and to tweak the bridge position, and possibly adjust the bridge height as well, to bring the instrument into playable condition!  This is normal practice in the industry, and it's been that way for many years.

A meaningful approval period involves actually playing the instrument, not just staring at it.  With all respect, I think your position is too extreme, and it is at variance with common practice.

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## delsbrother

Let me be more clear - you can do whatever you want to the instrument during the approval period, including things that are "completely reversible". But if you TELL the seller you've done these things, chances are you'll have ruined your return possibility. Is it absurd? Maybe. But I don't think it is dishonest or unfair. MANY instruments have been damaged by restringing, bridge adjustment, and truss rod adjustment. Just think - what if, while "checking to see if the rod worked" the luthier had broken the rod in the neck (happened to me). Now what? Buyer says mando defective. Seller says you broke it you bought it. 

Most sellers* would not sell an instrument with obviously old/broken strings. Those that would usually would mention that the instrument would need these things (or a setup, or an action adjustment) in the description so a buyer would know that work would need to be done and consider that in the purchase price. But I would discuss whether I could do this work during the approval period with the seller before doing the work - even restringing. When you assume, you open yourself up to misunderstanding and potential conflict. Why take that chance?

EDIT *that I would buy from

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## Bluetickhound

I gather that all the instruments being spoken of here are cash purchases but what about instruments that have been bought over time.. say, three months. After the last payment has been made, should you still get a 48 hour approval period?

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## sblock

> Let me be more clear - you can do whatever you want to the instrument during the approval period, including things that are "completely reversible". But if you TELL the seller you've done these things, chances are you'll have ruined your return possibility. Is it absurd? Maybe. But I don't think it is dishonest or unfair. MANY instruments have been damaged by restringing, bridge adjustment, and truss rod adjustment. Just think - what if, while "checking to see if the rod worked" the luthier had broken the rod in the neck (happened to me). Now what? Buyer says mando defective. Seller says you broke it you bought it.


Two points:  If you manage to damage the the instrument during the approval period by making some change or adjustment to it (however slight), then -- _by definition!_ -- this is not a "reversible" change.  And you are liable for it. This even includes just tuning it up, snapping a string, and thereby scratching the peghead.  So the case-in-point that you raise has already been covered.  It is not OK to make irreversible changes.

The second point is that you wrote: "_Most sellers would not sell an instrument with obviously old/broken strings. Those that would usually would mention that the instrument would need these things (or a setup, or an action adjustment) in the description so a buyer would know that work would need to be done and consider that in the purchase price._"

Sorry, but that statement is just plain *wrong*! Mandolins, particularly used ones that are purchased remotely, are very often shipped with "obviously old or broken strings."  Often, these instruments are not even being sold by mandolinists themselves, but by family members who inherited them. Or by folks who bought them, but wound up never playing them! Or by mandolinists who moved on to other/better instruments long ago and finally got around to selling the old one. Some mandolins have been sitting for years (even decades!) without a string change. Many are missing strings. And many of the sellers would not even know enough about the instrument to mention a need for a "set-up" in their description.

If you start from an incorrect premise, you may well reach an incorrect conclusion.

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## Jeff Mando

Couldn't help myself on this one.  Everyone keeps mentioning new strings like they are the greatest thing since sliced bread.  An old story I heard about Duck Dunn of Booker T and the MG's, Stax house band bass player who played on 100's of hits in the 60's, never changed his strings because they recorded better with some age to them.  I guess one day he broke a string and cried!  Put a new one on and immediately rubbed Vaseline all over it to deaded the sound!  I guess geniuses like dead strings and us mere mortals need new ones!

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## delsbrother

Well, we were originally talking about dealers. My point is, you know (or should know) that the strings are old/broken. It's in the description, or in the pictures, or mentioned by the seller when you ask him about them, etc. There's that caveat emptor again.

I have bought many instruments in the state you've described. But I take that into consideration BEFORE I buy, and I don't ASSUME it is ok for me to fix these things during the approval period WITHOUT FIRST ASKING PERMISSION. Really, all we're talking about is avoiding trouble. If you like trouble, do whatever you'd like. Trouble will find you.

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## sblock

> Well, we were originally talking about dealers. My point is, you know (or should know) that the strings are old/broken. It's in the description, or in the pictures, or mentioned by the seller when you ask him about them, etc. There's that caveat emptor again.


No.  The OP referred to a "seller," not necessarily a dealer.  In a later post, he referred to him as "a guy."  This discussion has been about remote sales in general all along, and not just from dealers.  Besides, writing for myself, I fee that similar rules ought to obtain regardless of whether the seller is a dealer or private party, particularly for used instruments.

But if you claim (as you just did!) that one should somehow be able to tell, from pictures alone, that the strings on a mandolin are new or old, then you would seem to be invoking powers and abilities beyond those of mortal men!  And if you think that the descriptions of instruments by sellers actually mention that the strings or new or old, you're not reading the same descriptions that I am!   I just looked over at the Mandolin Cafe Classified section and could not find any mention of string age (old or new) in any single ad.

So NO, and contrary to what you wrote, it's not "in the description, or in the pictures, or mentioned by the seller."  I suppose one could ask the seller directly, but this is rarely done. Who cares if the strings are old or new, since you'll be replacing these, after all!?

I entirely agree with you that it's a good idea to ask the seller for the permission of the owner to make any modifications.  But I hardly think that replacing old strings with new ones (at your own expense) constitutes much of a "modification."  Still, better safe than sorry -- and we do agree about that, I think!

----------


## bayAreaDude

I wouldn't expect to do anything with the instrument other than play it.  If it's not playable for whatever reason when it arrives for my evaluation, I'd send it back saying so and ask for my shipping money back for wasting my time.  Setup is a personal thing.

----------


## sgarrity

Well this has been interesting.......  :Mandosmiley:

----------

Petrus

----------


## Canoedad

> I wouldn't expect to do anything with the instrument other than play it.  If it's not playable for whatever reason when it arrives for my evaluation, I'd send it back saying so and ask for my shipping money back for wasting my time.  Setup is a personal thing.


Better call and discuss this with the seller.  She might advise you to bring the strings back up to pitch or you aren't getting any shipping money back.  :Popcorn:

----------


## bayAreaDude

> Better call and discuss this with the seller.  She might advise you to bring the strings back up to pitch or you aren't getting any shipping money back.


C'mon dude, everyone tunes up before they play.

----------


## bratsche

Hard to comment on the OP, because it's so foreign to my thinking.  Let me first preface this by saying that if I needed to try out any mando-family instrument before buying it, I'd own none at all (which would stink, and be unacceptable).   I should also mention that I've never spent more than $550 on one, mainly because that's been my typical ceiling of affordability for such an item.

Whenever I buy something online that is pre-owned, I expect there to be a certain "unknown" - that much goes without saying.  And whether I find it on eBay, the Classifieds, or wherever, I never go into a deal with the expectation of  48, or any other number of hours, for my approval.  Sure, I ask a lot of questions beforehand.  But I've bought it, so I own it, period.   If something turns out not to my liking, my accepted practice is to "move it on," and when so doing, I offer no approval time to the buyer either, and will say so.  If an interested party doesn't like those terms, s/he doesn't have to buy.  Simple.  

So far, nothing to really complain about in 15+ years....  A few times, when something  that required some work that wasn't evident in photos or to the seller in ignorance, we'd haggle it out in e-mail, and I'd usually get some cash back to take care of it.  And then there was the time I *liked* something I'd bought so much, that when I said so, the seller retroactively tried to get me to send him _additional_ money for it, after I had paid his asking price, and already had the item in my hands.  (Ha ha ha! ...but that really happened!)

bratsche
who has bought every kind of thing imaginable, from my #1 viola to an almost-new repossesed automobile, on eBay... (Hooray for eBay!)

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> I wouldn't expect to do anything with the instrument other than play it.  If it's not playable for whatever reason when it arrives for my evaluation, I'd send it back saying so and ask for my shipping money back for wasting my time.





> C'mon dude, everyone tunes up before they play.


Dude...Your two posts perfectly illustrate the problem here. Hard to expect _two_ people to agree on something when _one_ person can't agree with himself.

----------

Canoedad, 

sblock

----------


## mrmando

If I sell an instrument with a floating bridge, I take the bridge down before shipping. So I have to allow for that amount of setup, at least...

----------


## bayAreaDude

> Dude...Your two posts perfectly illustrate the problem here. Hard to expect _two_ people to agree on something when _one_ person can't agree with himself.


I don't agree with your assessment - I think it's pedantic to think you need to mention tuning an instrument before playing it as some separate activity which might alter it in some way.  I'm sure moelcules of nickel probably flake off when my pick hits the strings too and therefore the instrument has been altered from the state it arrived in, but again, c'mon, who has time for that nonsense.

----------

cayuga red

----------


## sgarrity

I remember a story about a dealer who had sold a pretty high end guitar to a customer, with an approval period of course.  During said period the customer calls to talk to the dealer and says, "So I was going over the guitar with my *jeweler's loupe* and noticed a few faint pick marks on the pick guard....."  Legend has it that before the customer could say another word the dealer said, "Box it up, ship it back, and don't ever call here again!"   LOL

All kinds of people out there.  I prefer to buy from and sell to players.  I certainly don't buy them to look at!  Seems a lot of people do.....

I had another dealer tell me that you'd be amazed at the number of people that complain because the guitar wasn't in tune when the customer took it out of the box.  You can't make this stuff up!

----------

Mandobar, 

Mike Bunting, 

nickster60

----------


## Canoedad

> I wouldn't expect to do anything with the instrument other than play it.  If it's not playable for whatever reason when it arrives for my evaluation, I'd send it back saying so and ask for my shipping money back for wasting my time.  Setup is a personal thing.





> C'mon dude, everyone tunes up before they play.


What does everyone do when an adjustable bridge is too low and there is buzz up the neck?   

Better make that call before you send it back and expect your shipping paid for.  That's all I'm saying.

----------


## bayAreaDude

> What does everyone do when an adjustable bridge is too low and there is buzz up the neck?   
> 
> Better make that call before you send it back and expect your shipping paid for.  That's all I'm saying.


If it was described as being set up but it is not, I'd return it and expect shipping to be paid for by the seller misrepresenting their item.  It it was not described as set up, which I'd consider the default if not mentioned, I'd evaluate it as is, paying return shipping myself should I decide not to buy.

----------


## CES

In this scenario I think the seller is right to refuse return. I don't think the OP's actions were inappropriate, per se, but who knows what his "luthier" (who could be Bruce Weber for all we know) is actually competent to do. That said, I can totally understand why the OP is not happy with the transaction, and I sympathize.  Communicating before making the adjustments made would have probably prevented the disagreement.

My first mandolin was an Ebay disaster from a seller with a "100% money back guarantee" return policy. The thing came with a chipped nut, terrible neck bow, and a bridge that was barely functional.  I attempted to return it based on the chipped nut, to which the seller replied that he would send me a replacement nut and a new set of strings, as changing the nut out "is just part of a set-up."  He then completely disappeared (and the new nut and strings never arrived, not that it would have mattered to me). Email address changed, shipping address no longer valid for his "business," the name of his business disappeared from eBay, and I had neither the time or money to really pursue it legally.  Upon having a luthier adjust the truss rod, the fret board separated from the neck. Fortunately it was only a Kentucky 675-S (which I'm fairly convinced didn't leave Saga's plant in said condition) and not a more expensive mando. But, at the time, it was all I could afford. After putting as much into it in repair costs as I paid for it (over a couple of years), it's reasonably playable, and I use it as my beater and let everyone I play music with carve their name/initials into it Marty Stuart style, but it serves as a constant reminder of the perils of online buying.

Now, my other online purchases (all through the classifieds here or through brick and mortar stores) have all been good experiences. I've kept all of them (except one I gave to my brother as he needed one for his church's praise band and couldn't afford anything decent). My favorite mando is a Silverangel Econo I bought from a fellow cafe member. and I'm grateful the others worked out well.

That said, I always think hard about what I'm willing to lose in an online purchase, ask questions (just short of the point of being a pest) and ask for pictures.  But, that eBay disaster is forever on my mind, as is a trip I took to Carter Vintage, Gruhn's, and Artisan Guitar in Nashville last year. All had some great instruments, but I was surprised how many "top end" mandos weren't what I now consider to be a keeper.  There were a few "mid level" instruments that were phenomenal that really surprised me as well. I've pretty much concluded that I'm playing before buying my next mandolin, even if it means a 6 hour car trip.  Never say never, but now that I know what I really like, I don't think I'm willing to chance it.

----------


## delsbrother

The OP had a legitimate issue that bore discussion. All these hypothetical add-ons just stretch logic and common sense to theiir limits. Again, you can do whatever you'd like - I'm just saying it might be less stressful if you asked first.




> No.  The OP referred to a "seller," not necessarily a dealer.  In a later post, he referred to him as "a guy."  This discussion has been about remote sales in general all along, and not just from dealers.  Besides, writing for myself, I fee that similar rules ought to obtain regardless of whether the seller is a dealer or private party, particularly for used instruments.


If you buy from widows and orphans, they usually won't give you an approval period. Again, in my experience only. If you're talking about Paypal returns, I have yet to have them come back on the buyers side. YMMV When I sell I never offer an approval period. Does that cost me sales? Sure. But look at all the hassles it saves me!




> But if you claim (as you just did!) that one should somehow be able to tell, from pictures alone, that the strings on a mandolin are new or old, then you would seem to be invoking powers and abilities beyond those of mortal men!


Yes, I do claim to be able to recognize rusty, broken, or missing strings simply *with the powers of my own eyes*. I do not claim to be able to tell if the strings are simply "old" (or "dead"). However I do know I can make a reasonable decision on an instrument even with dead strings (wow!). Or if they're too far gone, again, I would simply ask permission to change them. 

I don't understand why it is so hard for people to just ask permission. It takes literally seconds on the phone. I have actually done this. I've had people call me for permission when I was a seller. If you don't feel comfortable talking to someone over the phone I cannot fathom being comfortable sending that person THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. 




> And if you think that the descriptions of instruments by sellers actually mention that the strings or new or old, you're not reading the same descriptions that I am!   I just looked over at the Mandolin Cafe Classified section and could not find any mention of string age (old or new) in any single ad.


That's why you ask questions. I ask about the quality of the strings. The nut and bridge. The action.




> So NO, and contrary to what you wrote, it's not "in the description, or in the pictures, or mentioned by the seller."  I suppose one could ask the seller directly, but this is rarely done. Who cares if the strings are old or new, since you'll be replacing these, after all!?


Caveat emptor. If you don't ask, you get what you deserve. The buyer has a right not to be deceived. I don't think they have a right to modify the instrument as they see fit, and then still be able to return it for refund. The seller may grant someone this right, however I don't think it is wise to believe it is implied.

Here's all it takes:

(ring)(ring)

Seller: Hello?

Buyer: Hi, Mrs. Appleby? This is Darrell, the guy who bought your late husband's commodium.

Seller: Oh yes, so nice to talk to you again! Did it arrive safely?

Buyer: Why yes, ma'am, it did. I know you don't know anything about mandolins and you've never sold anything onlline before, but the strings on it are very old and it's hard for me to get an idea of how it would sound. Do you mind if I restring it? Can I still take advantage of your very generous 48 hour (less shipping and insurance in the lower 48 states only) approval period?

Seller: Of course, dear, go right ahead.

(end scene)

It's just not that hard.

----------


## delsbrother

> If I sell an instrument with a floating bridge, I take the bridge down before shipping. So I have to allow for that amount of setup, at least...


On this I can agree - if I bought (or sold) an instrument like this, I think it is implied the buyer is allowed to set up the bridge and tune it up. Now if in the process of doing that the peghead flies off (happened to me) then we have a problem. In my case, the seller took the instrument back. But I wouldn't be surprised if they refused it. Disappointed, angry, and possible litigious, yes. But surprised, no.

----------


## Mandobar

I heard that story and know the person with the jeweler's loupe……he's famous for this type of behavior, and there are some dealers who absolutely refuse to sell to him.




> I remember a story about a dealer who had sold a pretty high end guitar to a customer, with an approval period of course.  During said period the customer calls to talk to the dealer and says, "So I was going over the guitar with my *jeweler's loupe* and noticed a few faint pick marks on the pick guard....."  Legend has it that before the customer could say another word the dealer said, "Box it up, ship it back, and don't ever call here again!"   LOL
> 
> All kinds of people out there.  I prefer to buy from and sell to players.  I certainly don't buy them to look at!  Seems a lot of people do.....
> 
> I had another dealer tell me that you'd be amazed at the number of people that complain because the guitar wasn't in tune when the customer took it out of the box.  You can't make this stuff up!

----------


## belbein

If you take this out of the realm of mandolins, and put it in the larger context of commercial law, this isn't hard to figure out and I think the law is pretty clear.  If the buyer makes any change, it indicates acceptance.  Period, end of story.  This is a very basic problem in the commercial law.  Heck, there's a whole section in the Commercial Code about refusal of goods, because this happens all the time, and has happened since there was commerce.

And I'd submit to y'all that it has to be that way.  Because if it were any other way, you throw the buyer into the slippery slope arguments that you all have done such a good job of illustrating.  (What if I tune the instrument?  That's OK.  What if I'm tuning and a string breaks, can I change it?  Ahhhh, that's sorta OK, but ...  What if I'm tuning it and the bridge moves--can I move it back?  Uhhh, well that's kinda a modification ...  What if I move the bridge and the sound board cracks?)  

I don't mean this to criticize anyone's opinion, by the way.  The commercial law developed out of just these types of conversations.  Everyone's opinion here--even the most cranky (you know who you are)--is reasonable.  But in a legal sense, there's no question of what the law is here.  This what we call black letter law; call it "holy writ":  If you modify it in any way, you own it.  

But think about it logically, too.  What other choice could there be other than that modification=acceptance?  The seller is sending off his goods and then becomes completely at the mercy of the buyer.  If your philosophy is that the seller must bear the risk of any modification by the buyer, then the seller is completely unable to control his risk, because he can't control what the buyer will do.  That will drive prices up as sellers try to hedge against the unknown risk of modifications of the goods they still own.  If, on the other hand, you put the burden or risk of modification on the buyer, then the buyer can look at the goods and decide whether he wants to take the chance of modification ... or whether he negotiate the terms of modification.  This mitigates the risk for both parties: assures the seller that his goods will not change, and assures the buyer that he has the choice to accept as is or renegotiate.  It allows the buyer to decide whether he likes the goods enough to invest time and money in modification at the risk of buying the goods he's destroyed trying to modify them; it lets the seller limit the acceptable modifications that's he's willing to risk; and it also lets the buyer say "No, I can't judge the goods without major modification, so if you won't allow them, I'm shipping them back."  I'm by no means a _caveat emptor_ kind of guy, but this is a place where the law makes perfect sense.

Some legal systems, by the way, would talk about this more as a kind of consideration than of risk apportionment.  But even they (the ones I know best) would deem a modification a symbolic act of acceptance.

----------

Bob Clark, 

Ryk Loske, 

Steve Zawacki

----------


## sgarrity

> I heard that story and know the person with the jeweler's loupehe's famous for this type of behavior, and there are some dealers who absolutely refuse to sell to him.



I figured you'd know the inside scoop!  :Wink:   I had a guy do that to me once.  Used a magnifying glass on a custom Martin.  Said he found a scratch and was sending it back.  BUT....he paid for shipping both ways and put a $100 bill in the case pocket.  Can't really complain about that!    :Grin:

----------


## mandotrout777

> If you take this out of the realm of mandolins, and put it in the larger context of commercial law, this isn't hard to figure out and I think the law is pretty clear.  If the buyer makes any change, it indicates acceptance.  Period, end of story.  This is a very basic problem in the commercial law.  Heck, there's a whole section in the Commercial Code about refusal of goods, because this happens all the time, and has happened since there was commerce.
> 
> And I'd submit to y'all that it has to be that way.  Because if it were any other way, you throw the buyer into the slippery slope arguments that you all have done such a good job of illustrating.  (What if I tune the instrument?  That's OK.  What if I'm tuning and a string breaks, can I change it?  Ahhhh, that's sorta OK, but ...  What if I'm tuning it and the bridge moves--can I move it back?  Uhhh, well that's kinda a modification ...  What if I move the bridge and the sound board cracks?)  
> 
> I don't mean this to criticize anyone's opinion, by the way.  The commercial law developed out of just these types of conversations.  Everyone's opinion here--even the most cranky (you know who you are)--is reasonable.  But in a legal sense, there's no question of what the law is here.  This what we call black letter law; call it "holy writ":  If you modify it in any way, you own it.  
> 
> But think about it logically, too.  What other choice could there be other than that modification=acceptance?  The seller is sending off his goods and then becomes completely at the mercy of the buyer.  If your philosophy is that the seller must bear the risk of any modification by the buyer, then the seller is completely unable to control his risk, because he can't control what the buyer will do.  That will drive prices up as sellers try to hedge against the unknown risk of modifications of the goods they still own.  If, on the other hand, you put the burden or risk of modification on the buyer, then the buyer can look at the goods and decide whether he wants to take the chance of modification ... or whether he negotiate the terms of modification.  This mitigates the risk for both parties: assures the seller that his goods will not change, and assures the buyer that he has the choice to accept as is or renegotiate.  It allows the buyer to decide whether he likes the goods enough to invest time and money in modification at the risk of buying the goods he's destroyed trying to modify them; it lets the seller limit the acceptable modifications that's he's willing to risk; and it also lets the buyer say "No, I can't judge the goods without major modification, so if you won't allow them, I'm shipping them back."  I'm by no means a _caveat emptor_ kind of guy, but this is a place where the law makes perfect sense.
> 
> Some legal systems, by the way, would talk about this more as a kind of consideration than of risk apportionment.  But even they (the ones I know best) would deem a modification a symbolic act of acceptance.


I'm sorry but I still maintain that checking that a truss rod functions (my original question) is not a "change" or "modification" subject to your reasoning here. If I check it and put it back where it was, there is no change. If the law says that there is, then the whole concept of inspecting a used instrument prior to purchase is worthless, because the buyer has no way to determine whether or not the goods are suitable without buying them first.

----------


## Mandobar

yes, but you run the risk of turning the truss rod and having it break or jam, and then???? that old adage, you break it you bought it.  So, if you are going to make adjustments and are not wedded to keeping the instrument, talk to the seller or just don't do it.  Send it back.

I had a guy move the bridge on a mandola I was selling and scrape the finish.  He also broke the tailpiece.  I have no idea what he thought he was doing.

----------


## mandotrout777

You break it you buy it. That's fine. I was fully prepared for this to happen and decided it was a risk I was willing to take. I didn't break it, but I still bought it, even though I didn't want to. 

The more I think about this the more I think dealers/brokers/sellers who don't want customers to check a truss rod on a used mandolin shouldn't be offering an approval period at all.

----------


## Canoedad

> If you take this out of the realm of mandolins, and put it in the larger context of commercial law, this isn't hard to figure out and I think the law is pretty clear.  If the buyer makes any change, it indicates acceptance.  Period, end of story.  This is a very basic problem in the commercial law.  Heck, there's a whole section in the Commercial Code about refusal of goods, because this happens all the time, and has happened since there was commerce.
> 
> And I'd submit to y'all that it has to be that way.  Because if it were any other way, you throw the buyer into the slippery slope arguments that you all have done such a good job of illustrating.  (What if I tune the instrument?  That's OK.  What if I'm tuning and a string breaks, can I change it?  Ahhhh, that's sorta OK, but ...  What if I'm tuning it and the bridge moves--can I move it back?  Uhhh, well that's kinda a modification ...  What if I move the bridge and the sound board cracks?)  
> 
> I don't mean this to criticize anyone's opinion, by the way.  The commercial law developed out of just these types of conversations.  Everyone's opinion here--even the most cranky (you know who you are)--is reasonable.  But in a legal sense, there's no question of what the law is here.  This what we call black letter law; call it "holy writ":  If you modify it in any way, you own it.  
> 
> But think about it logically, too.  What other choice could there be other than that modification=acceptance?  The seller is sending off his goods and then becomes completely at the mercy of the buyer.  If your philosophy is that the seller must bear the risk of any modification by the buyer, then the seller is completely unable to control his risk, because he can't control what the buyer will do.  That will drive prices up as sellers try to hedge against the unknown risk of modifications of the goods they still own.  If, on the other hand, you put the burden or risk of modification on the buyer, then the buyer can look at the goods and decide whether he wants to take the chance of modification ... or whether he negotiate the terms of modification.  This mitigates the risk for both parties: assures the seller that his goods will not change, and assures the buyer that he has the choice to accept as is or renegotiate.  It allows the buyer to decide whether he likes the goods enough to invest time and money in modification at the risk of buying the goods he's destroyed trying to modify them; it lets the seller limit the acceptable modifications that's he's willing to risk; and it also lets the buyer say "No, I can't judge the goods without major modification, so if you won't allow them, I'm shipping them back."  I'm by no means a _caveat emptor_ kind of guy, but this is a place where the law makes perfect sense.
> 
> Some legal systems, by the way, would talk about this more as a kind of consideration than of risk apportionment.  But even they (the ones I know best) would deem a modification a symbolic act of acceptance.


belbein, I know you know the UCC really well.  So if you don't mind, what constitutes a modification?  Is an adjustment of an adjustable feature a de facto a modification?  What if I try out an adjustable wrench?  What if I adjust the tire pressure in a car I'm trying out?  What if I adjust the bridge on a Weber mandolin that has a bridge adjustment tool in the case as a standard feature?  What if I only adjust the tuning?  What constitutes modification?  Thanks.

----------

Bob Clark

----------


## sblock

> If you take this out of the realm of mandolins, and put it in the larger context of commercial law, this isn't hard to figure out and I think the law is pretty clear.  If the buyer makes any change, it indicates acceptance.  Period, end of story.  This is a very basic problem in the commercial law.  Heck, there's a whole section in the Commercial Code about refusal of goods, because this happens all the time, and has happened since there was commerce.
> 
> And I'd submit to y'all that it has to be that way.  Because if it were any other way, you throw the buyer into the slippery slope arguments that you all have done such a good job of illustrating.  (What if I tune the instrument?  That's OK.  What if I'm tuning and a string breaks, can I change it?  Ahhhh, that's sorta OK, but ...  What if I'm tuning it and the bridge moves--can I move it back?  Uhhh, well that's kinda a modification ...  What if I move the bridge and the sound board cracks?)  
> 
> I don't mean this to criticize anyone's opinion, by the way.  The commercial law developed out of just these types of conversations.  Everyone's opinion here--even the most cranky (you know who you are)--is reasonable.  But in a legal sense, there's no question of what the law is here.  This what we call black letter law; call it "holy writ":  If you modify it in any way, you own it.  
> 
> But think about it logically, too.  What other choice could there be other than that modification=acceptance?  The seller is sending off his goods and then becomes completely at the mercy of the buyer.  If your philosophy is that the seller must bear the risk of any modification by the buyer, then the seller is completely unable to control his risk, because he can't control what the buyer will do.  That will drive prices up as sellers try to hedge against the unknown risk of modifications of the goods they still own.  If, on the other hand, you put the burden or risk of modification on the buyer, then the buyer can look at the goods and decide whether he wants to take the chance of modification ... or whether he negotiate the terms of modification.  This mitigates the risk for both parties: assures the seller that his goods will not change, and assures the buyer that he has the choice to accept as is or renegotiate.  It allows the buyer to decide whether he likes the goods enough to invest time and money in modification at the risk of buying the goods he's destroyed trying to modify them; it lets the seller limit the acceptable modifications that's he's willing to risk; and it also lets the buyer say "No, I can't judge the goods without major modification, so if you won't allow them, I'm shipping them back."  I'm by no means a _caveat emptor_ kind of guy, but this is a place where the law makes perfect sense.
> 
> Some legal systems, by the way, would talk about this more as a kind of consideration than of risk apportionment.  But even they (the ones I know best) would deem a modification a symbolic act of acceptance.


Thank you!  You raise some important -- and very general -- points about commerce, and your legal analysis makes perfect sense to me, actually. The bottom line is that (as you put it), *MODIFICATION => ACCEPTANCE*.
For a lot of perfectly good practical and legal reasons, this is probably where society ought to try to draw the line.  (But maybe we need a moot court on this? Read on.)

Unfortunately, however, this legal analysis doesn't really get us anywhere, I'd argue. The legal principle that "modification by the buyer implies acceptance"  completely begs the question of what -- _exactly_ -- constitutes "modification" in the context of the mandolin world.  In fact, I'd argue, based on what we're reading from some of the more "cranky" voices, is that there seems to be no real consensus on this point.

I tried to introduce the notion earlier that a _fully reversible change that leaves the mandolin itself in the same material state_ is _not_, _per se_, a "modification,"  but that anything that leaves the instrument permanently altered surely _is_.  By this standard, tuning up the strings, changing out the strings, adjusting the bridge, removing a strap or endpin, and so on, are NOT considered modifications.  They are not permanent. And they should not affect the sale value of the instrument. However, scratching or gouging the instrument, and filing, shimming, or sanding any items whatsoever, doing fretwork, and so on, ARE all modifications.  These are permanent.  They can, and do, affect the sale value.

Apparently, there are some here who think that simply tuning a loosened string up to pitch constitutes a "modification."  But these folks wouldn't be able to tune a mandolin during an approval period, by the legal standard you described! Or, if that string happens to break as it's being tuned up to pitch, then changing it out would be a "modification" by their lights. There are others who seem to feel that re-positioning or adjusting the height of an adjustable bridge -- which is designed for user adjustment -- constitutes a modification.  I don't hold with that view one bit, but clearly there are some here who apparently think that way.   

Of course, if, in the process of adjusting something reversible (anything!), you BREAK or DEGRADE something on the instrument, then you most certainly _have_ made a modification.  And thereby voided your approval rights! But that's a horse of a different color.  I just don't understand why folks keep confusing these different things, though.  You can reposition a bridge without scratching the instrument top. You can tune a string without breaking a tuner. You can change a set of strings without damaging an instrument.

I am astounded to learn that there are people here who would return a mandolin immediately to the seller if it were not properly set up right out of the shipping box (which it rarely is, so one wonders how they manage)!  I am equally astounded to learn, on the other extreme, that there are people who think that adjusting the thumbwheels on a bridge should void an approval period.

Of course, none of this is a substitute for good communication between buyer and seller. We all agree about that. But c'mon, people!  Let's get real, I say.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Petrus, 

Zissou Intern

----------


## mandotrout777

Before this thread devolves into a meaningless back and forth exchange and gets locked, I'd like to thank all of those who shared their thoughts on my original questions. It seems that most agree communication ahead of the sale is the key. If agreements about the questions raised here can't be reached at that time, it's probably best to move along and find somebody else to do business with. 

The truss rod question is a big one to me. I recommend nobody buy a used mandolin from a seller who is reluctant to assure that it works properly AND to let you or your luthier verify it. As somebody said earlier, it's a normal and important part of the instrument and the expectation to inspect it is more than reasonable.

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## delsbrother

> I'm sorry but I still maintain that checking that a truss rod functions (my original question) is not a "change" or "modification" subject to your reasoning here. If I check it and put it back where it was, there is no change. If the law says that there is, then the whole concept of inspecting a used instrument prior to purchase is worthless, because the buyer has no way to determine whether or not the goods are suitable without buying them first.


I think most people would've just checked the rod and not said anything about it to the seller.  :Whistling: 

..but I didn't say that was a good idea. :Chicken:

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## AlanN

Loose lips sink ships, someone once said.

This thread has shades of the Monroe/Gibson 1950's debacle. You know, the one where he got the mandolin back and did an unspeakable act. Talk about modification!

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## Mandobar

Jeff, from a legal standpoint it does not matter what we think, but what the Courts think, and if there is precedence, then theme the rules and we have to live by them.  Technically, we need to live with what the law will allow, and in many states the law is different.  

I think the best policy is to have all the cards up front, and ask first before doing anything to the mandolin.  I sold a vintage Gibson to a member here a few years back, and he called me to ask if he could put heavier strings on before making his decision.  Nice guy, and different strings (I had always put lighter gauge strings on it) made all the difference.

I believe this is an important thread, as it has made even me think twice about what could happen during a sale.

----------

Bob Clark

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## Bernie Daniel

Yes useful thread.  Even if everyone does not agree on the "rules" or what is or is not acceptable behavior on the part of the seller and the buyer during the 48 hours approval period everyone at least is thinking about how they might handle the matter so as to avoid issues.

Certainly it seems that everyone agrees on keeping up the communication part.  

That also implies that both parties make an effort to maintain some kind of practical communication access (phone, email, smoke signals?) during this evaluation window.

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## AlanN

> Yes useful thread.


Agreed.




> also implies that both parties make an effort to maintain some kind of practical communication access (phone, email, smoke signals?) during this evaluation window.


Yes, and hopefully not the "I'll have my lawyer contact your lawyer" kind.

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## nickster60

I buy and sell  quite often, I guess you could call me a high end picker and have been for many years. I have noticed in the past decade or so people will buy just about anything from a online source. I have had people contact me for my ads from clear across the country for motorcycles,cars and even boats. It is a convenient way to shop but there some horrendous pitfalls that could bestow the buyer. I had a guy fly from Utah to Florida to pickup a motorcycle and then hopped on it and drove home. I made sure the bike was in good ride-able condition and checked it over thoroughly. I wasn't obligated to  do anything but I didn't want the buyer to get hurt of stranded. I think in our electronic age where everything is conducted at accelerated rates it may be wise to take a breath and ponder is this a good item to buy from a online ad. If it runs or makes a music it may be better to hear it for yourself.

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## Steve Zawacki

One thing is certain - not every transaction will be satisfactory for the buyer and/or the seller.  What one person thinks is acceptable behavior, someone else or the law won't.  That's just the way of things.

Another thing is very clear - communication is everything.  If there is an "approval period," the buyer and seller need to agree ahead of time what will happen during that time frame, including what kind of physical inspections, adjustments or whatever will be permitted and accomplished.  Better to get it all on the table before money changes hands than think the other guy sees things as you do.  A reluctance to communicate this way, whether the buyer or seller, should be a red flag that "risk" has increased for a satisfactory transaction.  The greater the "failure to communicate," the greater the risk of downstream problems.

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## AlanN

> The greater the "failure to communicate," the greater the risk of downstream problems.


'Nuff said...

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## Tom Haywood

The rules of law are there because people see things so completely differently and because, often, they are only thinking about themselves. One person may say that if I strip the truss rod then of course I just bought the mandolin. Another person will say that I barely turned the nut and the rod stripped, so you were trying to sell me a mandolin with a defective truss rod, I discovered it before the sale was final, and I'm not going to buy it. Another person will just return the mandolin saying that the truss didn't work when he got it. And another will hold forth that he wants a substantially reduced price because he has to pay to fix a defective truss rod. And then there is the slippery slope of what can we agree on that constitutes a reasonable and reversible modification. In the car example, is it reasonable to put in super hot spark plugs, racing gas, and go drive the Viper at top speed for an hour, then put the factory plugs and regular gas back in it and claim you've put it back in it's original condition?  I'm in the camp that you look at it "as is", and if you want to do anything at all to it besides tune it then you call the seller and get permission (or get told to send it back), and get that permission in writing because it is a modification of the original understanding.

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## Jeff Mando

I think regardless of the law, it is about fairness.  I spent 35 plus years thinking I had to "win" on every deal I encountered in life, then I met someone who did business differently.  He sold me a lot of instruments over the years and I know he probably could have sold each of them for more than I paid.   But he usually accepted my offers.  I guess he was raised differently than me or maybe read books I hadn't read, but he told me, "a good deal is a good deal for both parties".  Kinda like the golden rule or karma we heard about as kids.  In selling, I try to keep that in mind, even though it is difficult, at times, to walk in another persons shoes.

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## Bernie Daniel

> The rules of law are there because people see things so completely differently and because, often, they are only thinking about themselves. One person may say that if I strip the truss rod then of course I just bought the mandolin. Another person will say that I barely turned the nut and the rod stripped, so you were trying to sell me a mandolin with a defective truss rod, I discovered it before the sale was final, and I'm not going to buy it. Another person will just return the mandolin saying that the truss didn't work when he got it. And another will hold forth that he wants a substantially reduced price because he has to pay to fix a defective truss rod. And then there is the slippery slope of what can we agree on that constitutes a reasonable and reversible modification. In the car example, is it reasonable to put in super hot spark plugs, racing gas, and go drive the Viper at top speed for an hour, then put the factory plugs and regular gas back in it and claim you've put it back in it's original condition?  I'm in the camp that you look at it "as is", and if you want to do anything at all to it besides tune it then you call the seller and get permission (or get told to send it back), and get that permission in writing because it is a modification of the original understanding.


Seems like a reasonable position.


Your Viper story reminds me of the 1966 Shelby GT350 mustangs from Hertz.  Shelby had to lower his of his inventory of cars so he talked Hertz into buying a hundred or so of them.  Hertz lost big time.  Racers would rent them for $17 a day, put in a roll cage and race them in professional sports car events and after the race take out the cage and return them in "original condition"!  Yeah right!

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

This has been a very informative and educational thread and I applaud Jeff for bringing it up.  I do a fair bit of catch and release on here, and I tend to not ask too many questions, preferring instead to do all the inspecting once I have the mandolin in hands.  I know now that I'll be asking a lot of questions the next time around.

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## Jeff Mando

> I think regardless of the law, it is about fairness.  I spent 35 plus years thinking I had to "win" on every deal I encountered in life, then I met someone who did business differently.  He sold me a lot of instruments over the years and I know he probably could have sold each of them for more than I paid.   But he usually accepted my offers.  I guess he was raised differently than me or maybe read books I hadn't read, but he told me, "a good deal is a good deal for both parties".  Kinda like the golden rule or karma we heard about as kids.  In selling, I try to keep that in mind, even though it is difficult, at times, to walk in another persons shoes.



Especially, when someone is yelling, "I WANT A REFUND AND I WANT MY SHIPPING REFUNDED, TOO...."  LOL

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## wsugai

So you restring the mando and the bridge develops a hairline crack. Did you induce it with a clumsy job of restringing (your fault, so you just bought it) or did it reveal an underlying defect in the bridge (faulty merchandise, so you can return it)?





> Thank you!  You raise some important -- and very general -- points about commerce, and your legal analysis makes perfect sense to me, actually. The bottom line is that (as you put it), *MODIFICATION => ACCEPTANCE*.
> For a lot of perfectly good practical and legal reasons, this is probably where society ought to try to draw the line.  (But maybe we need a moot court on this? Read on.)
> 
> Unfortunately, however, this legal analysis doesn't really get us anywhere, I'd argue. The legal principle that "modification by the buyer implies acceptance"  completely begs the question of what -- _exactly_ -- constitutes "modification" in the context of the mandolin world.  In fact, I'd argue, based on what we're reading from some of the more "cranky" voices, is that there seems to be no real consensus on this point.
> 
> I tried to introduce the notion earlier that a _fully reversible change that leaves the mandolin itself in the same material state_ is _not_, _per se_, a "modification,"  but that anything that leaves the instrument permanently altered surely _is_.  By this standard, tuning up the strings, changing out the strings, adjusting the bridge, removing a strap or endpin, and so on, are NOT considered modifications.  They are not permanent. And they should not affect the sale value of the instrument. However, scratching or gouging the instrument, and filing, shimming, or sanding any items whatsoever, doing fretwork, and so on, ARE all modifications.  These are permanent.  They can, and do, affect the sale value.
> 
> Apparently, there are some here who think that simply tuning a loosened string up to pitch constitutes a "modification."  But these folks wouldn't be able to tune a mandolin during an approval period, by the legal standard you described! Or, if that string happens to break as it's being tuned up to pitch, then changing it out would be a "modification" by their lights. There are others who seem to feel that re-positioning or adjusting the height of an adjustable bridge -- which is designed for user adjustment -- constitutes a modification.  I don't hold with that view one bit, but clearly there are some here who apparently think that way.   
> 
> ...

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## FLATROCK HILL

> So you restring the mando and the bridge develops a hairline crack. Did you induce it with a clumsy job of restringing (your fault, so you just bought it) or did it reveal an underlying defect in the bridge (faulty merchandise, so you can return it)?


Yes.

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## Jeff Mando

nuts have also been known to crack or fly across the room when restringing.

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## Jstring

This thread will make me more cautious when buying or selling instruments...

I've bought / sold several instruments on the Cafe, or on Ebay from Cafe regulars. I've never asked for / offered a 48 hour approval- if an instrument arrives "as described" in the ad with no surprises, I don't feel that I have the right to return it just because I'm not crazy about it. In that case, I play it for a few months and then sell it. 

I appreciate when others have this attitude as well. Last year I sold an octave mandolin to a Cafe member. Then, 2 months later, I saw it in the Classifieds again. I contacted the buyer to see if he had a problem with the instrument. No, he replied- he just wasn't that excited about it, so he was moving it along. I think that's the best way to buy / sell instruments on-line.... and thorough, accurate, unbiased descriptions avoid problems for both buyer and seller.

I sympathize with the OP, but if a buyer moved the bridge, adjusted the truss rod, or changed the strings, I wouldn't take it back either. However, I always put on new strings and describe any cosmetic / functional issues in detail before I sell an instrument. Sounds like the seller did NOT do that in his case, which is the root of the issue.

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## Jeff Mando

"Famous" phone call from my college days, me calling my landlord--"Hi, John.  I was removing frost from the freezer compartment of your refrigerator with a hammer and screwdriver and suddenly I heard the hissing sound of Freon escaping..." his reply, "Sounds like ya broke it!"

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## Jeff Mando

Part 2.  I then asked him, since it was used, would it be OK to replace it with another used refrigerator, me thinking a $50 refrigerator would work fine.  He says, "No, that's a good looking refrigerator, I want you to have that one repaired."  It cost me $175 back in 1981 money!  I think he might have been a mandolin dealer.....

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## bratsche

> Part 2.  I then asked him, since it was used, would it be OK to replace it with another used refrigerator, me thinking a $50 refrigerator would work fine.  He says, "No, that's a good looking refrigerator, I want you to have that one repaired."  It cost me $175 back in 1981 money!  I think he might have been a mandolin dealer.....


Those were the days!  (Freon? I remember that!)  We once bought a new refrigerator, with the intention of it replacing the one that came with the house when we moved in, that we prematurely thought was dead when it took 3 days to return to correct temperature after a prolonged hurricane outage.  The replacement went on the blink a few years ago, and we called a few local repair places.  The consensus?  If it's more than 5 years old, don't bother - buy a new one.  It was 6.  (The one that came with the house is still running, btw.  It's probably 25 or thereabouts.)  

bratsche

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## Jeff Mando

I should add that $175 was more than my yearly budget for "fun" back then.

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## J.Albert

Jstring wrote above in post #133:
[[ I've bought / sold several instruments on the Cafe, or on Ebay from Cafe regulars. I've never asked for / offered a 48 hour approval- if an instrument arrives "as described" in the ad with no surprises, I don't feel that I have the right to return it just because I'm not crazy about it. In that case, I play it for a few months and then sell it. ]]

I'm very much this way myself. I tend to keep what I buy. Sometimes it takes a while for an instrument to "grow on you".

Example 1: a year or two back I picked up a Huss & Dalton "D-H" on ebay for a decent price. It arrived in "like new" condition, but... somehow, it just didn't "play right" for me. It sat in its case from then until a week or two ago, and when I took it out, it was a whole new ball game. I like it now.

Example 2: about the same time, I bought a used Deering Golden Wreath banjo from Zepp's down in NC. When it arrived, I was kind of non-plussed. It played fine, but didn't really impress me. But gradually, over time, it's changed into my favorite. It holds its tune better than any other banjo I have, and has great sustain and "even-ness" all up the neck.

Glad I didn't reject these too soon.

Having said that... I'm getting ready to sell a few instruments (mandolins, guitars, banjos), and I'm thinking of a "two-way" price offering.

I just sold a motorcycle seat over at hdforums.com, and when I put up the ad, it was like this:
====
I am selling with your choice of two prices:
$75 - includes shipping and a return privilege (but you pay for return postage). If you don't like it or it doesn't fit, send it back within 24 hours for a refund.
or...
$60 - includes shipping WITHOUT return privileges. You buy it, it's yours.
====

So -- when my ads appear here on mandolincafe, I was thinking of thus:
====================
Offered at two prices:
1. $2,100 - includes shipping and a 48 hour return privilege (you pay for return shipping). If you don't like it, return it in unmodified condition for a refund of purchase price;
or.....
2. $1,875 - includes shipping but NO RETURN PRIVILEGES. You buy it, it's yours.
Your choice of the above.

I don't recall ever seeing an add like that here.
Scott -- if you're reading this, is this against classifieds policies ???

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## sblock

> So you restring the mando and the bridge develops a hairline crack. Did you induce it with a clumsy job of restringing (your fault, so you just bought it) or did it reveal an underlying defect in the bridge (faulty merchandise, so you can return it)?


This was already answered in the previous post!  Please read this part again, carefully:

"_Of course, if, in the process of adjusting something reversible (anything!), you BREAK or DEGRADE something on the instrument, then you most certainly have made a modification. And thereby voided your approval rights! But that's a horse of a different color. I just don't understand why folks keep confusing these different things, though. You can reposition a bridge without scratching the instrument top. You can tune a string without breaking a tuner. You can change a set of strings without damaging an instrument._"

That said, merely restringing a mandolin shouldn't EVER break the bridge. And here's where there is no substitute for communication -- and good faith on the part of both buyer and seller! Anyway, your imaginary scenario about the bridge breaking upon restringing could just as well have been concocted around the poor buyer merely tuning up the instrument, instead of restringing it.  Or simply from his removing it from its case, for that matter, only to find that the bridge is cracked. You seem to be really grasping at straws, here, in order to make suggest that buyers ought not be able to put instruments into some playable condition by making normal adjustments. This thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous.

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## nickster60

Ct Albert
I think you will have better luck with the "Cafe Crowd" than the knuckleheads in the HD forum

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## delsbrother

> You can reposition a bridge without scratching the instrument top. You can tune a string without breaking a tuner.... etc.


We understand what you keep posting - we just don't agree with it.

If it was _impossible_ to do those things, they would never happen; yet somehow, they do. How? They're accidents. Like all accidents, they'll never happen to you.. Until they do.




> That said, merely restringing a mandolin shouldn't EVER break the bridge.


Ever see what Sam Bush strings will do to a vintage ivory bridge? I have. You never know what some knucklehead will do.




> You seem to be really grasping at straws, here, in order to make suggest that buyers ought not be able to put instruments into some playable condition by making normal adjustments. This thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous.


You can do whatever you'd like to your instrument. But if you plan on returning it and you want to avoid conflict I wouldn't do anything without asking permission first. Heck, some stores won't take a sweater back if you've worn it. Why should the rules be any different for any other item?

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## Eddie Sheehy

> In this scenario I think the seller is right to refuse return. I don't think the OP's actions were inappropriate, per se, but who knows what his "luthier" (who could be Bruce Weber for all we know) is actually competent to do. That said, I can totally understand why the OP is not happy with the transaction, and I sympathize.  Communicating before making the adjustments made would have probably prevented the disagreement.
> 
> My first mandolin was an Ebay disaster from a seller with a "100% money back guarantee" return policy. The thing came with a chipped nut, terrible neck bow, and a bridge that was barely functional.  I attempted to return it based on the chipped nut, to which the seller replied that he would send me a replacement nut and a new set of strings, as changing the nut out "is just part of a set-up."  He then completely disappeared (and the new nut and strings never arrived, not that it would have mattered to me). Email address changed, shipping address no longer valid for his "business," the name of his business disappeared from eBay, and I had neither the time or money to really pursue it legally.  Upon having a luthier adjust the truss rod, the fret board separated from the neck. Fortunately it was only a Kentucky 675-S (which I'm fairly convinced didn't leave Saga's plant in said condition) and not a more expensive mando. But, at the time, it was all I could afford. After putting as much into it in repair costs as I paid for it (over a couple of years), it's reasonably playable, and I use it as my beater and let everyone I play music with carve their name/initials into it Marty Stuart style, but it serves as a constant reminder of the perils of online buying.
> 
> Now, my other online purchases (all through the classifieds here or through brick and mortar stores) have all been good experiences. I've kept all of them (except one I gave to my brother as he needed one for his church's praise band and couldn't afford anything decent). My favorite mando is a Silverangel Econo I bought from a fellow cafe member. and I'm grateful the others worked out well.
> 
> That said, I always think hard about what I'm willing to lose in an online purchase, ask questions (just short of the point of being a pest) and ask for pictures.  But, that eBay disaster is forever on my mind, as is a trip I took to Carter Vintage, Gruhn's, and Artisan Guitar in Nashville last year. All had some great instruments, but I was surprised how many "top end" mandos weren't what I now consider to be a keeper.  There were a few "mid level" instruments that were phenomenal that really surprised me as well. I've pretty much concluded that I'm playing before buying my next mandolin, even if it means a 6 hour car trip.  Never say never, but now that I know what I really like, I don't think I'm willing to chance it.


I don't understand this at all.  I have never NOT gotten a full refund from EBay if an item was not as described... Whether or not the Seller had a Return policy...  Several times and all documented, I think maybe twice I had to pay to ship it back because the Seller had a returns policy which stipulated exactly that...

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## Eddie Sheehy

> Jstring wrote above in post #133:
> [[ I've bought / sold several instruments on the Cafe, or on Ebay from Cafe regulars. I've never asked for / offered a 48 hour approval- if an instrument arrives "as described" in the ad with no surprises, I don't feel that I have the right to return it just because I'm not crazy about it. In that case, I play it for a few months and then sell it. ]]
> 
> I'm very much this way myself. I tend to keep what I buy. Sometimes it takes a while for an instrument to "grow on you".
> 
> Example 1: a year or two back I picked up a Huss & Dalton "D-H" on ebay for a decent price. It arrived in "like new" condition, but... somehow, it just didn't "play right" for me. It sat in its case from then until a week or two ago, and when I took it out, it was a whole new ball game. I like it now.
> 
> Example 2: about the same time, I bought a used Deering Golden Wreath banjo from Zepp's down in NC. When it arrived, I was kind of non-plussed. It played fine, but didn't really impress me. But gradually, over time, it's changed into my favorite. It holds its tune better than any other banjo I have, and has great sustain and "even-ness" all up the neck.
> 
> ...


I always offer a 48 hr approval period - return for any reason if not happy - I would expect a buyer to contact me before making any luthier-type changes, and I do communicate with the buyer after they receive the items.  When I get lowball offers, happening a lot lately, I have often offered a reduced price if the approval is waived, no-one has ever taken me up on it. The benefit of that to me is that I can spend money immediately instead of letting it sit there while the mandolin takes a week to get to the buyer and then the approval period.  I would not do anything different to the packing or the shipping whether or not the approval period was waived, so if they waive the approval to accommodate me I reduce the price to accommodate them... They don' t go for it.

I've only had 3 instruments returned by a buyer.  One was on the advice of his 'luthier' who said that all teens Gibsons had the frets placed wrong... He sent it back, I sold it on, new buyer loved it...
Another had an electrics problem, pickup worked but the equalizer sliders were problematic.  At my suggestion he had the sprayed and cleaned but they were still bad.  I took it back, gave a full refund, and had my luthier replace the unit with one from a 'lesser' model but the preamp was same make but a newer one.  After he swapped them, BOTH worked great.
I forget why the 3rd was returned...

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

sblock

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## Bernie Daniel

> I always offer a 48 hr approval period - return for any reason if not happy - I would expect a buyer to contact me before making any luthier-type changes, and I do communicate with the buyer after they receive the items.  When I get lowball offers, happening a lot lately, I have often offered a reduced price if the approval is waived......


That is a great idea!  :Smile:

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## Paul Kotapish

While I appreciate the notion of the 48-hour approval period, unless an instrument is an obvious lemon, that wouldn't be nearly enough time for me to make up my mind about whether or not it's a keeper. Like several folks above, I generally buy with the expectation that I'll own it for at least a few months or even years before I know how it works for me, and then sell it if it doesn't work out. 

The one time I did purchase and return to seller, it was on a 30-day policy. For the first two weeks I was in love with a G&L ASAT (Telecaster style) guitar that I'd purchased used online. It looked, sounded, and played great, but at 11 pounds it was a real anchor, and after I finally got around to standing up while playing the thing I realized that it would wreak havoc with my back and shoulder over time. I was able to send it back for a full refund (minus shipping, of course), and no problems. I would never have sorted that out in 48 hours--or even the first week--and I was grateful for the more lenient policy.

----------

stevedenver

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## stevedenver

I have said this before

pay with a credit card -always

rules of law are fine, but a good clear agreement is what will save you-
ask lots of specific questions and confirm the answer in writing via email prior to or as a condition of purchase
this isn't a commercial transaction between merchants, its a consumer deal, and 
one should have a checklist and some clear thoughts and language before hand-OR-have a trust or relationship -or-the ability to cancel the payment 


when you buy on line, read the deal, call and discuss concerns, and if you get a different answer, confirm in writing what was agreed upon-this is critical

spell out the terms of the deal, condition, acceptable adjustments, time for exam and return, risk of loss, shipping, packing, etc
and who pays shipping, insur in the event of misrepresentations


my initial, commonsense, non-legal thought was, you monkey, its yours, you keep.

but, being a little deeper in thought now, 
im kinda thinking that what jeff's luthier did wasn't a mod, but an adjustment/inspection, and likely part of being suitable for the intended use-ie one should be able to tune, intonate, and adjust adjustable bits -ie if you can tune a radio, you can adjust a bridge thumbwheel-all intended and implicit functions-NOT re-filing the nut, etc

and this is where language in a contract would have helped, (as would likely a simple phone call to the seller asking permission before anything was done-but that's another 6 page thread.....)


otoh....LOL...this is so predictable.....if I were the seller and didn't know who did what, and simply don't want surprises, id likely take the same position worrying about some latent malady that I wont notice until its too late-the problem is some folks are ham fisted and others aren't and you just don't know...

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## mandotrout777

> I always offer a 48 hr approval period - return for any reason if not happy - I would expect a buyer to contact me before making any luthier-type changes, and I do communicate with the buyer after they receive the items.  When I get lowball offers, happening a lot lately, I have often offered a reduced price if the approval is waived, no-one has ever taken me up on it. The benefit of that to me is that I can spend money immediately instead of letting it sit there while the mandolin takes a week to get to the buyer and then the approval period.  I would not do anything different to the packing or the shipping whether or not the approval period was waived, so if they waive the approval to accommodate me I reduce the price to accommodate them... They don' t go for it...



Depending on the instrument I would go for this offer. As long as you would provide a good description of it, with photos, and state that the major components like the truss rod (sorry to keep beating that one) and tuners worked (or not) I would commit to take it whether I liked the tone or not. Tone is subjective and if I don't like it somebody else will. That way the only expectation I have is that it's as described and I can immediately verify everything without asking you. If any of the other crazy stuff discussed in this thread happens, we're going to have a dispute whether there is an approval period or not, so why even have one.

This approach obviously wouldn't work out on a new instrument, where there's significant depreciation, I couldn't recoup my money, a warranty is in place for mechanical problems, and the ONLY real concern is whether or not I liked how it sounds. Approval periods work in that situation.

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## stevedenver

I wont buy without approval. And that , has to be, simply, 'in my sole opinion, reasonable or unreasonable....or....I cannot sleep knowing what I owe on this thing".  I always am willing to pay shipping and insurance for this. 

Im not flakey, but sometimes there's the feel of a neck shoulder, or, the god awful sunburst, simply the sound, little things you may not think could possibly be so bad, frets way too low, that you just know "this aint agonna work" and, I have paid full asking price based on a no issues, reasonable return period.  

when I decided I wanted a rigel, but had never touched one or heard one, I paid a forum member a bit more than market, simply to have the peace of mind, that im out shipping and nothing more if I hate this thing.  

its worth several hundred dollars to me, on higher end stuff,  to not have to worry about being a lawyer and fighting with someone.
while credit card companies tend to side with the card holder, you have to be able to support what you thought you were getting or the terms and representations.

because of this, bigger dealers with no questions asked return often appeal to me.

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## Eddie Sheehy

Lets get one thing straight about the truss-rod thing.  I have NEVER opened a truss-rod cover on a mandolin.  Asking me a question like "does the truss-rod' work will get you an "I haven't a clue" answer.  If I had a mandolin with a bowed neck and a truss-rod, I would have a luthier adjust it .  If the neck is straight that cover isn't going to be opened unless there's a rattle coming from inside which happened once with an Octave mandolin I got and I just snugged it up to stop the rattle.  So if you're telling me that if I send you a mandolin with a straight neck that plays in tune up the neck with spot-on intonation that you're going to open the truss-rod cover irregardless to make sure the truss-rod tightens and loosens ( both ways right?) then spare me the effort of shipping it to you because I'll say if you mess with the truss-rod you own it so if you don't like it send it back.

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## Jeff Mando

This thread has been very revealing.  Maybe, I'm from a different generation or something (playing since 1966, buying and trading used/vintage instruments for 30+ years) but most of the comments really strike me as people being selfish, feeling entitled, and bordering on insanely picky.  Maybe mandolin players are more picky than guitar players.  Or stamp collectors, or record collectors, or ???  I don't know.  My father, rest his soul, was one of the pickiest people who has ever lived.  He kept the cleanest car, had the neatest lawn, his shoes were shinier than anyone at work, etc.  I knew early on, I was going to try my best to not be so picky.  Not a slob, but more relaxed in my dealings.  He carried his pickiness into most of his purchases, doing endless research before buying, trying all options, and then usually being less than satisified in the end.  I'm sure his name is legend at the local Buick and Cadillac dealerships.  Fortunately, he didn't get to experience the internet age.  I don't think it would have been a good fit for him.  My point is I've had experience with picky.  And he did raise a great son!  LOL  Back to the comments, no seller can "guarantee or should guarantee" whether or not you will "bond" with an instrument.  That is like getting a money-back guarantee for marriage or life itself!  Impossible for me to even imagine, someone would think this way.  Again, we live in a Walmart era, where you can return anything for any reason.  And people like that, of course.  Living life without ever taking a gamble, how interesting?  And I know some large corporate sellers do offer a 30-day no questions asked policy.  Great, I guess, but back to the marriage example, I already knew I liked the girl before I asked her out the first time.  No private seller can compete with Walmart's policy, but fortunately they don't sell vintage instruments, do they?  I probably sound old fashioned, but I do feel lucky that very few of my internet sales have resulted in returns and I have done a bunch.  Sure, once in a while I meet the customer who is in search of the lost chord or the meaning of life itself, but I politely tell them buying a $300 mandolin probably won't get them there.  Usually as a seller you can gauge the "fussy factor" before the sale by the questions the potential buyer asks, etc.  And how many questions they ask.  Asking too many specifics about my return policy, etc.  In this case, I try to direct the customer away from an instrument by telling them, "I don't think you will be happy with this instrument."  Problem avoided before it becomes a problem.  With that said, 99.9999 percent of people have reasonable expectations for a used instrument. (remember the pre-internet days, where instruments were sold in Vintage Guitar Magazine one-line listings, no pictures, something like, "1966 Strat, VG+, sunburst, all orig, OHSC, great sound and playability, price"  Many, many instrument were sold with those brief descriptions back then and mostly everyone was happy because finding a dream guitar was worth some risk, and everyone was cool with that.)

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## belbein

> Offered at two prices:
> 1. $2,100 - includes shipping and a 48 hour return privilege (you pay for return shipping). If you don't like it, return it in unmodified condition for a refund of purchase price;
> or.....
> 2. $1,875 - includes shipping but NO RETURN PRIVILEGES. You buy it, it's yours.
> Your choice of the above.


To me, that's perfectly reasonable.  Your asking the buyer to share the risk of his own inspection.  That's as it should be. IMHO.

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## belbein

> im kinda thinking that what jeff's luthier did wasn't a mod, but an adjustment/inspection, and likely part of being suitable for the intended use-


I see your point, but I don't think that either under common law or UCC an "inspection" includes any adjustment of the goods.  I think it's simple:  Change it=bought it.  I recall something about "indicia of ownership" or "asserting ownership" as being marks of consideration sealing the deal.  Or something like that.  

All of this reminds me of a very funny practical joke Steve Allen played on someone at a very exclusive chocolatier (which is possibly relevant).  He went through a very expensive mixed sampler box of chocolates that was on offer, either mushing or taking a bit out of them one at a time.  His explanation was that he wanted to see what was in the mix.  He then "decided" not to buy the box.  The chocolatier was, needless to say, nonplussed.  to bring it back to this case: I don't think there's much question that his "inspection" crossed the line into assertion of ownership.

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## JLeather

If someone is selling an instrument its their responsibility to prepare it for sale.  I treat the trial period the same as finding a mando in a music shop or going to see one on craigslist.  No store or private seller is going to let you take the instrument to a shop and have it tweaked/setup.  If they want it sold at top dollar they have that done at their own discretion/risk or else they should be prepared to have difficulty selling it or receive less money for it because the buyer is now assuming the risk that once setup it still isn't what they wanted.  If I received an instrument in the shape you described I'd have sent it right back, or explained to the seller my concerns and asked for permission at the very least or a partial refund for an as-is sale.

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belbein

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## Steve Zawacki

This thread has been enlightening in that it shows the beliefs, expectations, perceived-as-proper actions and knowledge of the law regarding purchase-of-goods transactions are all over the place.

The law as in place in most jurisdictions regarding these type of transactions was accurately and succinctly summarized by belbein.  Where inspection becomes modification will always be arguable, which is why it needs to be clarified before cash/goods change hands.  Afterwards is always too late, and what is "customary" within the "musical instrument marketplace" is not defined or uniform, and that further muddies the waters.

Almost every mandolin sale won't exceed a state/territory/province/etc. threshold for a "small claims court" action (in my state it's $5,000).  In most circumstances, the claiming party must file the claim in the other party's jurisdiction.  As a result, the incurred costs for a claim can easily outstrip the price paid for the instrument.

With this thread we have seven pages of commentary, all showing that buyer-and-seller communication usually leaves a lot to chance and hope, and the disappointment and frustration occurring in many transactions could have been avoided with much better communication prior to money changing hands.  Buying and selling musical instruments is not about the music - it's about the item and the money, just like it is about buying and selling anything else.  The music comes later.

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## mandotrout777

I've learned a lot from this thread. Mainly, if you get a used instrument on inspection for 48 hours and end up not wanting it, just return it in the same condition in which it was received. If you move the truss rod, put it back where it was. Don't tell anybody. I'm not a luthier and I've adjusted dozens of truss rods. I haven't stripped or otherwise damaged one yet. You guys who think only a luthier should adjust a truss rod crack me up. In the situation described in the OP I took the mandolin to a qualified, professional repair person, partially because the mandolin wasn't technically mine yet, at least in my mind. I wanted the mandolin to work out for me, but I needed to know if the truss rod worked. Looking back on it, I doubt the person I bought it from would have allowed me check it without committing to buy it. So if I had asked it wouldn't have mattered. I'm sure some of you will say, "ah, but you don't know that for sure", and yes, that's true. That's just the vibe I got from him. So, as someone in earlier posts said, my real mistake was just being honest and telling him I'd checked it out. I should have simply put everything back the way it was and sent it back. No harm done.

Not that I'm really complaining about it anymore. The guy I bought it from told me "don't worry about getting stuck with it, you can resell it or trade it and get your money back", which turned out to be partially true. I got my money back "on paper" via a trade-in for a new mandolin. We all know how that works. In reality I lost some money. But I ended up with what is turning out to be about the best sounding and playing mandolin I've ever had my hands on, so it's all good.

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