# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  celtic jig picking patterns

## cliff anglen

I can play 6/8 time jigs with down/up/down/up/ picking patterns but is it better to play jigs with a down/up/down//down/up/down pattern or does it matter?  The first one is easier for me to play fast but the second might be better for adding ornamentation notes.

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## Loretta Callahan

Yes, it matters.  It's DU DDU DDU DDU DDU DDU for jigs.  DUDU DUDU DUDU for reels. It's important to get this rhythm nailed down for the mandolin.  You can add ornamentation with either pattern.  Good luck!  I struggled with this for years myself.

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albeham, 

Pete Braccio

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## Bertram Henze

Some do DUD DUD, others do DDU DDU, still others do whatever comes in handy. There should be some pattern, though, because it helps to stabilize timing and pronounce rhythm - you'll need stabilizing strategies when leading a set in a loud session where others must recognize which tune you are playing next (this requires that you yourself recognize what tune you are playing next, b.t.w., which is not always easy  :Wink: ).

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billkilpatrick, 

xiledscot

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## kmmando

DUD DUD works best for me, creates a nice wee hopping space just before the pulse note at the start of each of the 3 crotchets ... but I will vary it according to the tune, naturally, and the type of 6/8. Jigs are completely different from a Highland bagpipe 6/8 march, but often confused. best wishes Bertram
Kevin Macleod

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Bertram Henze

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## kmmando

lust for example, my rough old attempts at 6/8 march picking ...... not fun under the glare of a camera is it?







jigs

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albeham, 

Jesse Harmon, 

Larry Ayers, 

Rick Schneider, 

Werner Jaekel

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## Bertram Henze

> ...... not fun under the glare of a camera is it?


I guess that was exactly the facial expression of several thousand men with claymores and Lochaber axes marching south in 1745...  :Wink:  No wonder the English ran from Prestonpans.

That TG has a surprisingly strong tone, and your playing style demonstrates nicely what was said about picking patterns.

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## abuteague

The DUDDUD pattern does help with ornamentation. 

It goes DUDDUD DUDDUD and when I want to put in an ornament, it is easy as pie, you just put in a little udu where ever you want. It might look like this. Dudu DUD. This video has me using this ornament exclusively putting it in or not as it occurs to me while I play.




I'm learning myself. This tip comes from Marla Fibish.

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## cliff anglen

Thank you everybody.  Don't come knockin' I'll be working on my DUD DUD.
Cliff

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## cliff anglen

DUD UDU is so ingrained but I think I have a tip that seems to be helping me.  Since part of my brain is thinking about my left hand and part is thinking about which string to pick there isn't much brain left to make sure I use DUD DUD for jigs but if I tap my foot on the downbeats, I can make sure my pick is always going Down when my foot does.  Doesn't take much brain to keep my foot going.
Cliff

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Loretta Callahan

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## CelticDude

Yes, for groups of 3 8th notes, DUD works. However, a DUD UDU pattern is a nice change every once in a while.  Not sure what ornaments you are doing, but I don't find picking pattern affects left-hand ornaments.  Not sure whether it would affect right-hand ones (triplets are strange with jigs, although I've heard some folks do them perfectly in a jig.)

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## cliff anglen

I meant right hand ornaments (triplets) Dan Beimborn comes to mind. Picking pattern seems to effect mine.  
Thanks,
Cliff

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## whistler

From what I remember, Dan Beimborn is an advocate of DDU DDU.  Kieran Hanrahan, on the other hand, swears by alternate picking (DUD UDU).   I think DUD DUD for jigs is the general consensus among plectrum instrument players, though.   

I used to play jigs with more-or-less alternate picking - it just seemed the obvious way to do it.  But I would sometimes come unstuck.  So I decided one day to set about learning DUD DUD.  For the first few weeks, it was like walking in stilettoes (actually, I've never tried that), but after a while it started to pay off; I might even say I started to become not a bad mandolin player.  It is also worth mentioning that I 'streamlined' my reel picking as well, sticking strictly to DUDU DUDU on quaver passages, playing all triplets DUD (never UDU), and resuming with a DU after the triplet.  (I would previously reverse my picking pattern to UDUD after a triplet).  

In fact, my jig picking has its quirks, and I will sometimes slip in a UDU when it suits, or even an occasional UDU triplet.  In my limited experience of teaching mandolin (I have more fingers on one hand than I have had students), I always teach DUD DUD, but if my student incorporates some other pattern, and I don't notice it adversely affecting the flow or rhythm of their playing, then I don't try to 'correct' it.

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## kmmando

"In fact, my jig picking has its quirks, and I will sometimes slip in a UDU when it suits, or even an occasional UDU triplet. In my limited experience of teaching mandolin (I have more fingers on one hand than I have had students), I always teach DUD DUD, but if my student incorporates some other pattern, and I don't notice it adversely affecting the flow or rhythm of their playing, then I don't try to 'correct' it. "

Couldn't agree more, nothing's set in stone, and each tune and style of tune will have variations that are unique, so just play them s that the tune works, I think. 6/8 pipe marches for instance, work quite well with DUD UDU passages in places.

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## Richard Eskite

I also find the jig picking Dud Dud pattern to be difficult.  I think it's important to strive for picking "correctly" as it will eventually contribute to the musicality of the piece.  As an older beginner, if I don't force myself to do it the right way as I am learning a piece, I'll never get it right.  Since I cannot really play many tunes up to tempo right now, it doesn't seem as important but having the right picking pattern really demonstrates its worth as speed increases.  I understand there are exceptions to every rule, but one needs to learn the rules first in order to break them creatively and effectively.

One exercise I've been working on in practice is playing scales with the Dud Dud pattern, especially when you go up two notes, then back one, then up two, etc.  It's when I cross over strings both up and down the scales that I have the most trouble, but I'm getting there.

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## zoukboy

Over the years I have worked with a lot of students who have found DUD DUD to be counterintuitive, particularly if they have experience in American musics with strict reciprocal picking patterns. 

I have found that starting with a D-D D-D pattern of a quarter note + eighth note on every beat quickly gets them past the counterintuitive part, and the U between the two Ds can easily be added later. Interestingly, and this may be why it works, is that D-D D-D pattern is similar to the 12/8 Blues shuffle rhythm.  

The DUD DUD pattern that is so prevalent for jigs works well because in actual practice the first note of each group of three is often lengthened slightly by delaying the second note. With DUD DUD that second note is only and uniquely an upstroke.

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## whistler

> The DUD DUD pattern that is so prevalent for jigs works well because in actual practice the first note of each group of three is often lengthened slightly by delaying the second note.


That does seem to work in practice.  Logically, it ought to take more tome to play a _downstroke_ after a downstroke, since you have to bring the pick up in between.  I guess it must me something to do with the way our muscles and nervous system respond to the sensation of plucking the string.  It _feels_ a bit like the pick is bouncing off the string - although if it were _actually_ bouncing, without passing the string, it wouldn't make any sound.

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## DeamhanFola

> "In fact, my jig picking has its quirks, and I will sometimes slip in a UDU when it suits, or even an occasional UDU triplet. In my limited experience of teaching mandolin (I have more fingers on one hand than I have had students), I always teach DUD DUD, but if my student incorporates some other pattern, and I don't notice it adversely affecting the flow or rhythm of their playing, then I don't try to 'correct' it. "
> 
> Couldn't agree more, nothing's set in stone, and each tune and style of tune will have variations that are unique, so just play them s that the tune works, I think. 6/8 pipe marches for instance, work quite well with DUD UDU passages in places.


From back in the days of late-80s neo-classical metal, I worked really hard to be able to pick with equal force on up and down strokes. With the exception of instances where you're going to adjacent strings/double-stopping, having the ability to pick with equal power should take away some of the rigidity of the patterns (which inherently assume that up-strokes will be less powerful than downstrokes). It's something that I continue to work on. In my book, more flexibility=more opportunity for variation, especially with ornament placement.

Thank you, Paul Gilbert (ex-Racer X shredder and Guitar for the Practicing Musician columnist)! I'd like to erase all photos of my hair from that period, but I sure learned some good techniques to apply to mando.

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## whistler

On (Sliabh Luachra style) polkas, I generally use downstrokes for all quavers and dotted quavers, reserving down-up picking for the semiquaver passages (I think this is also the approach commonly used by bluegrass and oldtime players.  In theory, it applies equally to playing reels, except that reels tend not to contain as many half-time passages and, at the somewhat slower pace of a reel, there's more space for embellishment on the longer notes).  It entails using a lot of successive downstrokes, but has the advantage that the right hand uses the same repetitive movement throughout, either plucking a string on the upstroke or not, as the tune requires.  It may seem like a lot of wasted motion, but its advantage in playing dance music is that it allows you effectively to beat time with your right hand whilst playing the tune.  _But_, as when playing jigs, I don't necessarily adhere to the pattern throughout;  I sometimes find myself emphasising the offbeat (i.e. 2nd or 4th quaver in the bar) using _upstrokes_.  This is not a technique I have consciously cultivated - just something I have caught myself doing now and again, and that just _feels_ right for the tune.  I don't think the emphasis comes so much from playing the note more strongly as simply breaking out of the pattern.

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## gortnamona

when i started playing everything was played dudu, i played most of my triplets on an up stroke, i then relearned jigs using dud dud, it certainly suits jigs and its automatic now but at the same time i feel i've lost something, can't exactly put my finger on it but its definitely taken something away from up strokes. hope that makes sense.

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## Martin Jonas

What I concentrate on when picking jigs is to ensure that I tap along or nod along with the pulse which for jigs is two beats per bar.  A metronome helps with that.  Then, just make sure that the note on the beat gets special emphasis.  Everyelse then falls into place -- the natural way of getting that emphasis is by playing a downstroke on the beat although in rare exceptions the pick movement through a phrase is such that an upstroke feels more natural in which case I don't fight that.

Martin

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## zoukboy

> <snip> just make sure that the note on the beat gets special emphasis.  Everyelse then falls into place -- the natural way of getting that emphasis is by playing a downstroke on the beat although in rare exceptions the pick movement through a phrase is such that an upstroke feels more natural in which case I don't fight that.
> Martin


I think it depends on what is meant by "special emphasis." If you mean a dynamic accent, that is, those notes are louder, then I would be careful about that as it is often not the case, especially in Irish music, where that emphasis is often achieved by lengthening those notes rather than playing them louder.

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## Jock

I'm generally DUD UDU for jigs, but not exclusively so as I find it depends on the tune.

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## danb

> From what I remember, Dan Beimborn is an advocate of DDU DDU.


Yeah, I use that pattern. I think you need either DDU DDU or DUD DUD to get the "pulse" right. DUD UDU gives a different beat emphasis, or ends up making you work really hard to have it sound natural.

Irish jig rhythm is a heartbeat, often just called "the pulse". The down-beats that start each group of three are the ones you hear and feel thundering on the dance floor at a ceilidh. It's important to remember that an Irish Jig is music for dancing! That beat & pulse is what makes it what it is, highly intoxicating & aerobic. When I'm playing Jigs at my best, that's the imagery going on in my head when I play- the thundering hooves of a line of dancers.

I'm really getting into the downbeats (1 and 4 if you are counting 123 456!) in this clip

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albeham, 

Andy Boden, 

Bill Clements, 

hank, 

Loretta Callahan

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## billkilpatrick

a timely thread - thanks everyone.  this is all new to me but in terms of driving the tune along, doesn't the left-hand have more to do with it than any of the repetitive dudu etc., etc. patterns made with the right?

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## danb

> a timely thread - thanks everyone.  this is all new to me but in terms of driving the tune along, doesn't the left-hand have more to do with it than any of the repetitive dudu etc., etc. patterns made with the right?


Actually the right hand is the engine room. The rhythm is pretty important in dance tunes, and you want a really good beat & pulse laid down.

I do most of the twiddly bits with my left hand- a lot more pull-off and hammer-on than more traditional or tenor banjo-style players, but I'd say you could switch out the left hands and it'd still be Irish Jigging. Take away the rhythm and the right-hand and it loses something more important!

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billkilpatrick, 

hank, 

Loretta Callahan

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## neil argonaut

Each to there own and whatever works, but personally I couldn't Imagine getting the feel of it while playing DUD UDU, I'm more or less strictly DUD DUD unless playing a triplet Dudu DUD, though occasionally when there's a part with the middle note missed out, i e D_D D_D I'll play it D_U D_U  (hard to put into words, but, for example, the Butterfly has a lot of this rhythm);

Not tried DDU though, might give that a go for a bit and see how it works out, always good to have 2 ways to play the same thing.

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## katygrasslady

The whole thread has me a bit worried.  I've never thought about proper picking patterns.  It's a totally unconscious thing for me.  I tried to be aware of the pattern of picking for a few tunes, and being mindful of D or U patterns cripples me.  I think the picking pattern might change as I learn the basic's of a tune and start to add some ornamentation.   If it comes out OK, isn't it safe to trust this whole concept to intuition?  Do many self taught people get this all wrong?

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albeham, 

billkilpatrick

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## danb

> The whole thread has me a bit worried.  I've never thought about proper picking patterns.  It's a totally unconscious thing for me.  I tried to be aware of the pattern of picking for a few tunes, and being mindful of D or U patterns cripples me.  I think the picking pattern might change as I learn the basic's of a tune and start to add some ornamentation.   If it comes out OK, isn't it safe to trust this whole concept to intuition?  Do many self taught people get this all wrong?



I only discovered I was using DDU DDU while _teaching_ a class and telling everyone to use DUD DUD.. a student pointed out that I wasn't!

I had the benefit of learning by ear in situations often performed for dancers in large groups. Gaining confidence that I was doing it right was a direct product of many superior musicians sitting all around me taking the lead roles!

I realize that's pretty unusual, we had a very welcoming and thriving Irish music scene in Milwaukee & Chicago during my most musically formative years.. if you can't get that sort of feedback, it's often useful to visit a workshop or even browse the web for some advice.

I think a lot of these things may help a beginner or person struggling, but rarely make much of a dent on an established player's style!

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## neil argonaut

> The whole thread has me a bit worried.  I've never thought about proper picking patterns.  It's a totally unconscious thing for me.  I tried to be aware of the pattern of picking for a few tunes, and being mindful of D or U patterns cripples me.  I think the picking pattern might change as I learn the basic's of a tune and start to add some ornamentation.   If it comes out OK, isn't it safe to trust this whole concept to intuition?  Do many self taught people get this all wrong?


I'm undecided on this - on the one hand if it works, and you don't get into problems with your picking, it may be wise not to overthink things and needlessly complicate things. On the other hand, I've seen people starting to learn who in my opinion anyway, were being held back by not learning to pick DUDUDUDU for stuff in 4/4 and DUDDUD or DDUDDU for jigs.
Maybe it would be an idea to find a teacher or someone who has been playing for years, and get them to watch you and give an opinion on whether it's worth analysing and changing your picking patterns or just leaving it.

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Loretta Callahan

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## katygrasslady

> On the other hand, I've seen people starting to learn who in my opinion anyway, were being held back by not learning to pick DUDUDUDU for stuff in 4/4 and DUDDUD or DDUDDU for jigs.


OK, I played some slow and I think I stumbled onto doing this correctly.  Phew.  For me, music is a way to 'just go with the flow' and avoid my analytic tendencies.   A Gestalt, rather than dealing with pieces.  But you are correct.   But this is difficult without having folks to play with or watch.  




> Maybe it would be an idea to find a teacher or someone who has been playing for years, and get them to watch you and give an opinion on whether it's worth analysing and changing your picking patterns or just leaving it.


I'm trying to get together with  Roger Landes for just that in May.  Just have him watch me play and nip some bad habits in the bud.   I remember when I was learning to ride dressage on a horse- how difficult it was to relearn something already in muscle memory, and the breakthroughs when I could finally do it correctly.   
  I had a whistle lesson last fall while traveling.  The big revelation was that grace notes are percussive rather than melodic, as I had been playing them.   So much to learn.......
Thanks for your insights,
Kathryn

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## danb

> I'm trying to get together with  Roger Landes for just that in May.  Just have him watch me play and nip some bad habits in the bud.


There you go, Roger's a very good teacher. I'm sure you'll get the balanced approach you need this way!

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## billkilpatrick

i'm wondering if the various up-down-down-up patterns are applicable to bowing the fiddle.

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## neil argonaut

> i'm wondering if the various up-down-down-up patterns are applicable to bowing the fiddle.


Not a fiddler myself, but from observing them in sessions, it seems like they've got it easy and can play the three notes in one bow stroke, so instead of worrying over DUD DUD v DDU DDU v DUD UDU, it's just D U, and from what I've heard, most folk who play both find it easier to go a lot faster on the fiddle.

However, to compensate, they've not got frets to help with their intonation  :Smile:

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## whistler

> i'm wondering if the various up-down-down-up patterns are applicable to bowing the fiddle.


Not really.  As Neil says, a fiddler can play 3 (or any number of) notes in a single stroke.  I'm not really a fiddler either; I am, however, a mandolin player who tries to play the fiddle and, take it from me, bowing is not easy. :Disbelief:   The question of pick direction certainly has its parallels in fiddle playing, but the patterns themselves are not applicable.  There are ways to emphasise the strong notes without changing bow direction; in fact, a bow change on a _weak_ note whilst slurring across a _strong_ note is common technique for giving lift to the rhythm.

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billkilpatrick

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## Bertram Henze

> If it comes out OK, isn't it safe to trust this whole concept to intuition?  Do many self taught people get this all wrong?


If it comes out OK, it is safe for the moment. In my approx. 30 years of playing, I have had more picking strategies (all subconcious) and pick grips than I can remember. They all worked for the instrument and the circumstances of their time. But then circumstances change. I switched from tenor banjo to OM and suddenly had to strike harder to be heard in a session but still had to keep up with speed. Nothing stays the same. Only recently I made a slight change to my pick grip again.
Perfection is a rainbow - there is no end.

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## CelticDude

Maybe the way to think about this is to figure out what we're trying to accomplish, and then figure which picking pattern gets us there.

As I understand it, a jig is: ONE-two-Three TWO-two-Three, with the emphasis on the first note of each group of three, and with the other two being roughly equal to each other, with the third getting slightly more.  I personally can't really get much oomph, relatively, on an upstroke, so DUD UDU doesn't work for me (except for the occasional weird hemiola effect). So I use *D*UD *D*UD.  I guess DDU DDU would work, although I've never really tried it on mandolin.  (It works really well on guitar for the Tull song Thick as a Brick.)

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## zoukboy

> Maybe the way to think about this is to figure out what we're trying to accomplish, and then figure which picking pattern gets us there.
> 
> As I understand it, a jig is: ONE-two-Three TWO-two-Three, with the emphasis on the first note of each group of three, and with the other two being roughly equal to each other, with the third getting slightly more.


Well... maybe. As I said before, it depends on what you mean by "emphasis," and also which style we are talking about. The original poster asked about "Celtic jigs," but all the jigs I play are either Irish, Scottish, English, or Cape Breton, and none of those styles approach that rhythm the same way. The capitalization in your post implies a dynamic accent, i.e., notes played louder, and that is certainly a common way to approach jigs, especially here in the US, but if we're talking about Irish music that "emphasis" is achieved, more often than not, not by a dynamic accent but by an agogic one, i.e., lengthening the duration of the note (in this case by delaying the note that follows it). You can verbalize this rhythmic relationship by saying "taaah -tic -tee  taaah -tic -tee".

There is no set way to articulate this but it is a tendency (certainly not a "rule") that I have noticed in listening to many Irish players over the years. And it is fairly subtle, the unevenness between the first and second notes being somewhere between an equivalent 1:1 ratio and a dotted rhythm, which ratio would be 1.5 to .5.  In addition, many players will play a dynamic accent on the third note on the beat, verbalized as: "taaa -tic -TEE  taaa -tic -TEE"

I'd be very interested to hear if Kevin MacLeod or Dagger Gordon notice this in Scots players. My experience tells me that they are probably approaching it differently but I don't feel experienced enough to try and describe it.

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## Jock

Seems there's more going on with my jig picking than would first appear, to me at any rate. My neck's been sore for a week or so, so have't been doing much playing as a result. Last night though I found myself reacquainting myself with a couple of jigs I haven't played in a while and thinking of this thread I dissembled my picking a little just to see what's going on.

Turns out I'm mixing it up a bit, one tune used more DDU DDU than the other, which was mainly DUD DUD. Both had the odd passages where DUD UDU (how I like to think of myself as playing jigs) was used to embellish the odd linking phrase. A bit of a revelation as I tend not to think about it and as a result haven't really noticed this before  :Redface:  

Funny thing was, when I did think about it I interrupted the rhythm, forcing the picking to strict DUD UDU or DUD DUD, was simple enough but DDU DDU wasn't so natural for the second tune but the natural thing to do for the first, with the first and third parts at any rate. 

The conclusion I came to, thinking about it in bed with my tight fitting DIY towel neck brace keeping me awake longer than usual, was, best not to think about it too much and let the pick do what it has to do to produce the feel and keep the rhythm. I think if I analyses things too much it detracts from my playing, which was sounding ok enough for me given the handicap  :Smile:

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## billkilpatrick

it appears i'm incapable of repeating a pattern more than two or three times - something of a shock as i thought i could play the mandolin!

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## CelticDude

zoukboy: I had a contra dance musician/caller put it that way, in fact he described it as exactly a dotted eighth-sixteenth.  Your description is probably more accurate (I also have a new vocab word: agogic).  So, do any of the patterns described help with this, in your opinion?  I almost think DDU DDU would help, in that the extra time needed to get the pick back into position for a downstroke would lengthen the first note.  But retraining myself would be a bear.

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## zoukboy

> zoukboy: I had a contra dance musician/caller put it that way, in fact he described it as exactly a dotted eighth-sixteenth.  Your description is probably more accurate (I also have a new vocab word: agogic).  So, do any of the patterns described help with this, in your opinion?  I almost think DDU DDU would help, in that the extra time needed to get the pick back into position for a downstroke would lengthen the first note.  But retraining myself would be a bear.


It's not a dotted eighth-sixteenth - that would be lengthening the first note (and shortening the second one) by 50%. It's somewhere between equal and dotted and it does vary from player to player. 

The best pattern for this (in my experience) is DUD DUD.  Try playing a quarter note-eighth note pattern in 6/8 with only downstrokes and you will quickly see how natural that feels for a jig rhythm. Adding the upstroke in between those downstrokes is then relatively simple matter and since the middle notes are the ones being shortened/delayed it helps that they are the only notes played with an upstroke.  Also, having a downstroke on the third note supports its being dynamically accented if that is the player's choice.

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## kmmando

Roger, I'm not really sure what the answer is! But here's a simplified version of how I play a pipe jig

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albeham

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## zoukboy

> Roger, I'm not really sure what the answer is! But here's a simplified version of how I play a pipe jig


Thanks, Kevin. That's beautiful!  Picking looks totally familiar to me with maybe one or two minor exceptions. Great to see how you do it!

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## kmmando

Thanks, Roger, relieved to hear it makes sense, as I don't actually think about what I'm doing, just kind of "do it".
Thinking of all you kind and decent Americans in these troubled times .... best wishes, Kevin

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## PhillipeTaylor

So how does one go about practicing these new picking patterns.  I've been DUD UDU and that was what I was taught, but I think I'm ready to work on this, and I've been playing with it.  I know a couple jigs fairly well, but once I practice them with this picking pattern, no matter how slow, I loose track of the notes or the picking pattern... should I try practicing the pattern on one of two strings first and then try the transfer to a jig I know?  Or should I just grind through a new jig learning the pattern anew with the new jig?  Playing with all of them, just working with the pattern on one or two strings so far is getting the most traction, but the transfer to a song at this point is a struggle...

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## David Surette

Such a popular topic. I am of the DUD DUD persuasion, both in what I play and in what I teach. My experience has been that for the majority of folks, using the DUD pattern gets better results than other approaches (better here defined as rhythmic consistency and ability to develop speed). I don't discount other approaches as being invalid, as I have seen and heard beautiful music played with several different picking techniques. But as a teacher, I am looking for the best approach for the most folks. Here's a possible analogy. When I teach fingerpicking guitar, I suggest that folks use a thumb and two fingers. There are some great guitarists, like Doc Watson and Rev. Gary Davis, who play regularly with a thumb and one finger. They make great music this way, but for most people, that would be a much more difficult technique to master to get the same results. So I would suggest the approach that seems to work the best (and the easiest, eventually) for the most.
  My experience has also been that more good players use DUD than any other one particular approach. But there are many paths to the top of the mountain. And I'm glad so many folks like to play jigs!

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zoukboy

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## zoukboy

> So how does one go about practicing these new picking patterns.  I've been DUD UDU and that was what I was taught, but I think I'm ready to work on this, and I've been playing with it.  I know a couple jigs fairly well, but once I practice them with this picking pattern, no matter how slow, I loose track of the notes or the picking pattern... should I try practicing the pattern on one of two strings first and then try the transfer to a jig I know?  Or should I just grind through a new jig learning the pattern anew with the new jig?  Playing with all of them, just working with the pattern on one or two strings so far is getting the most traction, but the transfer to a song at this point is a struggle...


I suggest you do both. Practice the pattern on one string until you can do it unconsciously and then try playing that pattern as a rhythmic drone to a recording of a good player playing a jig.  When you can match the rhythm and tempo of the recording you are ready to apply that approach to a new tune. It's *really* important that you use a new tune so you are not fighting muscle memory of DUD UDU embedded in a tune you already know. Try a really simple tune, like "Jimmy Ward's Jig" and once you can play it with DUD DUD without thinking about the pattern then learn another new tune and do that same.  During this time of transition it is also a good idea to NOT play your older repertoire in which DUD UDU is embedded.

Good luck!

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PhillipeTaylor

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## JeffD

> If it comes out OK, isn't it safe to trust this whole concept to intuition?  Do many self taught people get this all wrong?


I started out (way back in the Pleistocene) doing D D D D on everything. Soon enough that was limiting me. I went to DUDU for everything and improved dramatically. Over the years I solved other problems that were limiting me, how I held the pick, how I planted or brushed or not, keeping my left hand fingers down, placement of my left thumb etc. Solving each problem as it became the limiting factor.

Soon enough I discovered DDU on jigs and boom, another plateau broken through.

I don't use it all the time for jigs, as some sound better, to my ear, with DUD UDU, but I do use it a lot.

To your question, I have always been one to start with my intuition, and be stubborn about it until I reach a plateau. Correcting and fixing all these little things only becomes relevant when they are the next impediment to progress. When ever I seem to reach a plateau, I take inventory and fix something in my technique. More often than not progress starts up again.

I am sure I could have saved time learning the "right" way from the beginning, but its been a heck of journey and a lesson learned when I needed it was learned better than something of theoretical value that I was told I "should" be doing. It ends up in the same place, so you decide.

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## foldedpath

I've recommended DUD, DUD pattern in the past, and I still think that's good advice for beginners who don't have jig rhythm burned into their reptile hind-brains as muscle memory. 

I also think it's important to think about where the main phrases are in a jig or reel, or any other Irish trad music rhythm, and make sure you begin those small phrases with a down-stroke for emphasis.

But once you've spent some years playing this music... and especially when you're working out where ornaments like "trebles" fit in... I think you have to adopt a Zen-like attitude and let the rigid picking patterns fall by the wayside. You do what you have to, so that your music "sounds Irish." Listen to fiddlers, pipers and flute players more than other mandolin players, and you'll get there.

In my home practice session this afternoon, I did something I almost never do. I actually _looked_ at how I was picking a jig; a tune I had well under my fingers. Sure enough, it was mostly DUD,UDU... alternate picking. That's where I've ended up, after spending some time on this music.

I wouldn't say it's a good place to start, especially for those coming from an Americana style like Bluegrass or OldTime. The "jiggy" DUD, DUD or DDU, DDU patterns are more useful for a beginner to this music. Learn the rules, and then break them.

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## Loretta Callahan

> I've recommended DUD, DUD pattern in the past, and I still think that's good advice for beginners who don't have jig rhythm burned into their reptile hind-brains as muscle memory. 
> 
> snip
> 
> I wouldn't say it's a good place to start, especially for those coming from an Americana style like Bluegrass or OldTime. The "jiggy" DUD, DUD or DDU, DDU patterns are more useful for a beginner to this music. Learn the rules, and then break them.


Well said.  You gotta play by (know) the rules the rules before you can break them.

I bagged every jig I knew because I had such terrible pick direction. (Not fun to see your teacher wince).  I re-learned old  jigs and  religiously practiced new jigs and reels using the "rules".  Took me about a year.  I'm sure there are times now when I miss the perfect pick pattern in a tune I know inside and out, but I can hear and feel when it sounds and feels right ... something I didn't know before I immersed myself in the rules.

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## xiledscot

I cannnot believe that you have used 50 threads discussing the correct way to play a Jig.

Quite frankly I have never heard the like.

Too much analysis,leads to paralysis!!............................PLAY THE TUNE , and don't let anyone tell you you are doing it wrong!

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billkilpatrick

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## Bertram Henze

> Learn the rules, and then break them.


I have a somewhat extended approach: Ignore the rules, then find out their purpose the hard way, then learn to break them.

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## foldedpath

> I have a somewhat extended approach: Ignore the rules, then find out their purpose the hard way, then learn to break them.


That's the way I've always done it. Takes longer, but you get there eventually.  :Smile: 

Not to get all philosophical or anything... but there's a famous saying in Buddhism that goes something like "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

I think the idea is that you wouldn't recognize the true Buddha on the road until you had spent enough years studying the formal teachings. Then, when you can recognize the Buddha, it's okay to let it go, and proceed down your own path to enlightenment. Or something like that. Maybe it's that third glass of wine tonight.

"If you meet rigid picking patterns in your tune, kill them." But learn them first.

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## Loretta Callahan

Emptiness is form and form is emptiness.  I killed the Buddha in my youth many times.  However, since I'm in my mid sixties, I don't seem to have the time to slog through backing into the rules by breaking them first, at least with jig and reel picking.  Kudos for those who do.  

The pendulum swung and whacked me on this one.

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houseworker

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## PhillipeTaylor

I just think it's fun to learn new things, and then listening to the subtle or overt ways something sounds different when you can do it different ways.  I love how the English language describes this - PLAY an instrument:  "Do you PLAY any instruments?"  "Yes, I PLAY mandolin,"  "Oh really, how long have you been PLAYING?"... and so forth.  

PLAY.  

Sometimes I think we forget that word, which is linguistically so intrinsic to how we talk about music.  I think there is wisdom in that simple word.

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## whistler

> I love how the English language describes this - PLAY an instrument


Just for comparison, in Welsh, you SING _(canu)_ an instrument, whilst in Spanish and Portuguese, you TOUCH _(tocar)_ an instrument.  Food for thought.

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PhillipeTaylor

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## Bertram Henze

> Just for comparison, in Welsh, you SING _(canu)_ an instrument, whilst in Spanish and Portuguese, you TOUCH _(tocar)_ an instrument.  Food for thought.


The Irish language has an extra word (_a sheinm_) for playing an instrument, which is completely different from, say, the word for playing games; it is, however, reused for CD players, mp3 players etc.

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PhillipeTaylor

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## PhillipeTaylor

I like the Welsh one... kind of give the instrument a voice, and therefore implicitly life...  cool stuff!

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## Narayan Kersak

I've found that when I'm picking a tune, I typically don't pay too much attention to a picking pattern.  HOWEVER, when I am accompanying a tune I find the pattern does make a difference, at least for me.  So picking a tune, I don't think too much about it. But playing chords I do try to follow DUD DUD or what seems appropriate based on syncopation of tune.  However, for a while I did pick a tune following different patterns mentioned, but didn't seem to matter.

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## Jill McAuley

One of the reasons we end up spending so much time talking about how to pick a jig is that there is a percentage of beginners new to playing irish trad/celtic music who don't know what a jig is supposed to sound like, aren't aware that it's a dance music etc. I agree that folk can basically play a jig any way they want to, as long as it sounds like a *jig*. Getting the right emphasis can sometimes be challenging for learners and in those cases, sticking to a set pattern that helps them achieve that emphasis, such as DUD DUD can be very helpful. There are a myriad of videos on Youtube of folks playing "jigs" that sound more like speed metal, or ones that are a bunch of notes strung together and sound more like reels - usually accompanied by text reading "Dude! I just learned this celtic song tonight on my roommate's mandolin, check it out!".... 

It's an aural tradition - listen to loads of the music, immerse yourself in it and the emphasis will feel natural to you. 

Cheers,
Jill

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Avi Ziv, 

PhillipeTaylor

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## xiledscot

Apologies to any beginners or challenged learners for my,possibly,dogmatic reply to this thread.
I just felt that it was important,not to get bogged down with theory.
I learned to play by listening to other musicians which is how they learned,and as Jill says it is an aural tradition.
If using dududud or whatever helps the newcomer to learn,then great! Whatever floats your boat,but leave room for your own interpretation and feelings.
Above all make it enjoyable and the emphasis will happen.

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Jill McAuley, 

PhillipeTaylor

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## John Kelly

Strongly support Jill and D Mac here.  Remember that the tunes are played for dances, whether jigs or reels, and make sure that you play in a way that a dancer can respond to.  I was teaching a young player for about 18 months and she was also a very able Highland dancer; often she would say to me that the timing was not quite as it should be and then she'd offer to dance so that I could follow her.  It was a great learning experience for me as a player and it applies to all the dances we play the tunes for - try to play a good Strathspey and get a dancer to move to your playing.  They know what they want to hear.
All too often now a lot of players and groups go for breakneck speed as they are technically very able and can perform at speed faultlessly, and often they are playing for an audience at a festival or concert where there is no dancing going on and the audience are fired up and wanting a rave!  (Or is this just my attempt to justify why the elderly Kelly does not play faster, rather than admitting that he can't?)

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Jill McAuley, 

PhillipeTaylor, 

xiledscot

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## PhillipeTaylor

Well, as a beginner with a little experience, I can testify that your help has been appreciated, and I'm working on it and very excited to find out what this new picking pattern is going to sound like... I can hear the difference between an up stroke and down stroke and hear how the up stroke can 'soften' transitions bewteen notes when a tune is played faster, though that could be my own skill level... all this discussin helped me come to the point where I investigated what the dud udu sounded like and wondered what the dud dud would do, and now I've got to try it...

I will probably curse you guys for a little while under my breath while I am still struggling to get the dud dud pattern down, though...  :Wink: .... but what do you expect, gotta have someone to blame!

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## JonZ

Does anyone know what our current batch of "super pickers" do--Marshall, Thiele, et al?

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## Steve L

I don't think those guys play a lot of jigs.

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## Gelsenbury

> One of the reasons we end up spending so much time talking about how to pick a jig is that there is a percentage of beginners new to playing irish trad/celtic music who don't know what a jig is supposed to sound like, aren't aware that it's a dance music etc.


Yes, the first step must be to realise that 6/8 isn't 4/4! The whole notion of pick direction follows from that.

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## jeromie

> Does anyone know what our current batch of "super pickers" do--Marshall, Thiele, et al?


Thile teaches "The Swallowtail jig" on his instructional DVD with a DUD DUD pattern. He emphasizes the pick pattern and the rhythmic feel it creates pretty strongly, so it was at least a part of his fundamental tool set. That was 10 years ago and he has certainly earned the right to break the rules if he wishes, but my guess is that he's a player who sticks with "correct" techniques.

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