# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

## beidlerp

I'm looking for insight into a question that has me stumped.  Perhaps some of you can help.

Why is it that a thriving mandolin orchestra seems to have difficulty reaching out to the many fantastic bluegrass players in the community?  Why are bluegrass, celtic, jazz, and other players seemingly ambivalent about an orchestra devoted solely to their chosen instrument that exists right in their community?  

This is not a rant but a genuine question.  More to the point, what have other thriving mandolin orchestras (I'm in Seattle) done to successfully attract new members?

Do people just not know about regional mandolin orchestras?
Do people think we only play dorky music?
Do people think they're not slick enough at sight-reading?
Do people just prefer more improvizational genres?
Do people not want to pay the membership dues?

If you were going to run an outreach campaign to attract new members, what do you think would be most likely to work?  Free seminars on sight-reading?  Getting access to the band and orchestra geeks in the schools?  Getting local teachers (who may be too busy to join) to send us their students?  Playing gigs with local bluegrass bands?  Or should we just stay small?

I'd love to hear what other mandolin orchestras have done to build their organizations.

Paul Beidler

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## barb knysz

When you figure it out please let us know.

We have an orchestra of about 10-12 very dedicated players.
It seems that new players came to us when we were doing regular 
concerts that were open to the public. We're not doing as many of those
types of concerts these days.

Also, we found that the many bluegrass mandolin players in the area, either
didn't read music, and/or didn't have any interest in the mandolin orchestra concept.

We have a dedicated 10-12 players plus an incredible conductor, and we play some really cool music.
It would make an interesting topic for a workshop at the upcoming 2012 CMSA convention.

Thoughts anyone else?

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## Ed Goist

I think a big part of it is that mandolin players are generally more like cats than dogs.

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## Beanzy

This is the organisation out of which came our one which is full of folkies / classical / bedroom players. 
I think I'm the only player, of the 27 so far, who does BG, folk & classical. 

Random thoughts and suggestions;

By having the scores and MP3s out there ahead of time (on that site; arrangements by Matt Norman) it's easier for our people new to ensemble playing to bone up before hand. 

It may be an idea to convert to Tablature for people coming from BG/ folk background who often use that rather than standard notation.

Not much room for tearing off taking breaks and trying out your own licks in an ensemble setting.

People do assume an 'orchestra' or 'ensemble' means it's going to be classical and maybe a bit formal. Need to pop that weasel without making it look like you're dweebs trying to 'get hip with the kids' or making serious players think it's some joke or sub-standard ensemble. High quality but accessible with support and enjoyable is a good balance to aim for.

Make sure there's room in the itinerary for relaxing / socialising.

Make sure people can get support from other members in learning to get over the start-up hurdles.

Change people between 'desks' so the good ones aren't always only in the 1sts. Helps to pull the overall level up if you've strong players moving in to the backing sections, and stops too much prima-donna behaviour or snootiness in the more capable players. If done right it also recognises the strengths of these better players, making them more confident that they are seen as good, so preventing too much friction and pecking-order displays.

'Steal' violinists from orchestras and lure them over to the dark side of fretted instruments.  :Smile:

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## Mandobar

I think the bit about "orchestra" leads many to think "classical" music.  Perhaps the vernacular should be "ensemble".  

I play in a small ensemble based out of a wonderful community music school.  There are six of us.  Four mandolin players, myself on Mandola and an octave player who doubles on mando.  As we enter our second year as a group I have to say we are a more balanced group with two others sharing an octave mandolin and getting the group thinking about harmonies and chords.  

Perhaps as more groups like ours appear in public more players will be drawn to this format.

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## margora

"I'm looking for insight into a question that has me stumped. Perhaps some of you can help.

Why is it that a thriving mandolin orchestra seems to have difficulty reaching out to the many fantastic bluegrass players in the community? Why are bluegrass, celtic, jazz, and other players seemingly ambivalent about an orchestra devoted solely to their chosen instrument that exists right in their community? 

This is not a rant but a genuine question. More to the point, what have other thriving mandolin orchestras (I'm in Seattle) done to successfully attract new members?"

Hi Paul,

These are all very good questions.   

I play (mandola most of the time, sometimes mandolin, occasionally something else like renaissance lute) with the Providece Mandolin Orchestra.   I've been with the PMO since 2003, the same year I started playing mandolin -- however, I played (and still play classical guitar) for many (30+ years) prior to the mandolin, and play that instrument at an advanced (prof.) level.

The PMO played at CMSA this year, two original pieces (a piece by Victor Kioulaphides, which was a US premiere; a piece by Owen Hartford, a world premiere; and one of my arrangements, of Astor Piazzolla).   After our performance, I met a member of the Seattle group (Sue, a lovely person), and we had a discussion about the state of MO's in the US, which touched upon some of your questions.   Several years ago I also met Alan Jacobson and also had a long conversation with him about the Seattle group and mandolin in general, so I am famiiar with some of your history, including recent.

During my conversation with Sue the issue of guitars-in-MOs came up.   I asked whether there were guitarists in the SMO and my recollection is that she said not at present.   Now, I checked your website, and it is clear that you welcome classical guitarists -- but the website also says that MOST (not ALL) of your pieces have parts for guitar.  None of the ensember photos appear to have guitars, but I can't be certain.

In any case, if you want to add members, this is something you can do readily because, as I am sure you know, Seattle is one of the best places in the US (actually, in the world) for classical guitar.   If you can tap into this community (via, say, the Seattle Classical Guitar Society) I am sure you will get very good players who certainly can read (whether they can sight read complicated parts is another mattter, but reading per se is not an issue).   The classical guitar world is shifting (pretty sharply) towards ensemble music and I think you can take advantage of this.  I think you will also find that, eventually, some guitarists will gravitate to the mandolin (that is what happened in my case), especially those that have some experience playing with a pick.

There is, though, a cost to this benefit -- you will have to amend your repertoire.   ALL of the pieces will have to have guitar parts, not just SOME of them.  Simply put, you can't ask people to sit out.  Some time ago the PMO was offered the opportunity to play the Mike Marshall mandolin concerto, which I believe the SMO has performed.   We turned it down, because there are no guitar parts (as soon as Mike writes some, I am sure we will play it).  

More generally, the guitar parts in the standard historical MO repertoire -- early 20th century stuff, in particular -- are, in a word, absolutely awful -- badly written for the guitar, usually, and no fun for the guitarist.   But the good news is that there is a vast modern repertoire, mostly European/Australian and some American (e.g. Kioulaphides) with excellent, well-written guitar parts.   The PMO currently plays NONE of the standard historical MO repertoire (and never will, at least with its current conductor, thank God).  I don't know everthing that you are playing, so don't interpret the above as critique -- my point is that if you import some good, contemporary classical guitarists, and give them something interesting to play, you will necessarily be giving your mandolin-family instruments something interesting to play, and this may attract more mandolin-family performers, since the music will soundm, well, more modern.   The guitarists are likely to know composers, another good thing to tap into.

I wouldn't worry about the bluegrassers, or make too many concessions.   The PMO certainly is willing to consider new members, and from time to time people sit in.   But we don't change the repertoire to make it more inviting (or easier) and we don't give people tab.  If they can handle the parts, great, if they can't, whatever.

Lastly, there is always Craigslist.   The PMO recently recruitied an outstanding string bassist this way.

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## Jim Garber

> Why is it that a thriving mandolin orchestra seems to have difficulty reaching out to the many fantastic bluegrass players in the community?  Why are bluegrass, celtic, jazz, and other players seemingly ambivalent about an orchestra devoted solely to their chosen instrument that exists right in their community?


I think Beanzy hit the nail on the head and in much more detail. I do think, however, that the prime reason for players of other folk genres is the emphasis (or impression thereof) that they have to read music. The other aspect is that they want to play in smaller ensembles and play the music that excites them. The third reason is that there are only so many hours in the day and most people -- even the top notch players -- have day jobs and families.

I was for many years in the New York Mandolin Orchestra. I no longer play since i live over 1 hour away and rarely go to the city.  We did have some excellent players when I was there -- Barry Mitterhoff was concertmaster. I think he occasionally plays the soloist parts if asked but he is very busy touring now. Other excellent players in the area were either too busy or did not read or prefer to play bluegrass or jazz.

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## Mandobar

perhaps the reading of music is some of it, but i do think that there is a socia-cultural hurdle that both sides need to make.  while i was still living in the ny metro area i approached several mandolin orchestras about participating and i cannot any one of them was welcoming.  (no one even asked if i could read music)  

while you won't attract folks who play mandolin for a living you might attract some very gifted, music reading individuals with a more open and welcoming outlook.  and it's not only with classical folks.  if you go to celtic or irish sessions things are a big tense also with the regulars not welcoming outsiders with open arms either.  same with bluegrass folks.  and then the word gets around.  

and for what it is worth, i have a formal classical background which includes training at several very well known conservatories and performances in some pretty impressive halls.  not something that i tell folks as this sometimes puts folks off.  unfortunately music seems to have social boundaries too.  shame.

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## margora

"I was for many years in the New York Mandolin Orchestra. I no longer play since i live over 1 hour away and rarely go to the city. We did have some excellent players when I was there -- Barry Mitterhoff was concertmaster. I think he occasionally plays the soloist parts if asked but he is very busy touring now. Other excellent players in the area were either too busy or did not read or prefer to play bluegrass or jazz. "

As Jim's comment implies, there are always idiosyncratic reasons why someone plays with a group, or not.   The PMO rehearses in Providence and I live in Boston.   Roundtrip door to door is 100 miles, and we rehearse every week.

On the other hand, in the 2008-09 academic year I was on sabbatical (my day job is economics professor) at the Russell Sage Foundation in Manhattan, living on the upper east side (64th and 3rd).   My good friend Steve Antonelli played mandocello from time to time with the New York Mandolin Orchestra, and invited me to sit in on one of their performances, which I did (sight-reading).   That was the only time that year that I played with the NYMO.   Distance had nothing to do with it -- I lived around the corner from the relevant subway, and it was, I think 2 subway stops to get to where the NYMO rehearsed.   I have friends in the NYMO but the music (arrangements from the string orchestra literature) did not appeal.  Instead, I played with Steve Antonelli's group, the New York Mandolin ENSEMBLE, which Victor K. also plays with, plus many other good players and good repertoire -- a total delight.

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## Jim Garber

Bob:  I think that after hearing PMO at CMSA, I can say that that orchestra you play in ranks one of the top mandolin ensembles around. The music is interesting and quite suited to the instruments. There is truly nothing really wrong with string orchestra repertoire but there are things that work quite nicely on out plucked instruments.

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## margora

"There is truly nothing really wrong with string orchestra repertoire but there are things that work quite nicely on out plucked instruments. "

Hi Jim, of course I agree.  In about a month the PMO is going to perform one of the Brandenburg concertos (#3)    I just wasn't into what the NYMO specifically was doing back in 2008 -- in other words, I was agreeing with one of your points (you have to like the repertoire enough to cover the costs of rehearsing, otherwise why bother?)

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## Jory

"Instead, I played with Steve Antonelli's group, the New York Mandolin ENSEMBLE, which Victor K. also plays with, plus many other good players and good repertoire -- a total delight. "

Margora-

What is the repertoire of the NY Mandolin Ensemble like? What composers besides Victor's (I really enjoy his music, too)? 

Thanks,

Jory

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## mrmando

The SMO does recruitment via its Web site and Craigslist. We actually do have new people coming in the door fairly often, but we also have a high churn rate: people will show up, attend a few rehearsals, maybe even play a gig or two, and then fall off the map. Sometimes we know the reason -- people's jobs or other life situations may change, after all -- but often we don't know, or at least I don't. There are also several great players in town who will show up if we're doing something cool -- like a gig with Mike Marshall or Carlo Aonzo -- but aren't interested enough to play on our other gigs. 

If we knew more of the reasons why people don't choose to stay with us for the long term, we might gain some insight into what we're doing wrong. 

I don't think it hurts to try to recruit bluegrass musicians, but I'd also want to look for people who played other instruments in school bands or orchestras while they were growing up, and are now picking up the mandolin. Most of our long-term members have that kind of background. In a group like ours, I think the ability to follow a conductor is even more important than how well you play. 

It also might not hurt to reach out to instructors in town. Geoff W. and Alan J. will send students our way, but I don't know which other mandolin teachers (a) teach using notation; (b) would think of referring students to an ensemble like ours.

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## margora

"What is the repertoire of the NY Mandolin Ensemble like? What composers besides Victor's (I really enjoy his music, too)?"

It is very eclectic -- some original works for mandolin ensemble; some arrangements, pop and otherwise; some straight classical.   In the 2008 performance we did Victor's "Hues of Dusk" and several of Steve's original works for mandolin ensemble (his music has celtic/pop influences, very well written and idiomatic).  We also did my arrangement of three galliards by John Dowland for renaissance lute (which I played) and mandolin ensemble; and several arrangements by Bob Rose, one of the founders of the NYME (no longer with the group, I understand), including a great version of Jobim's "Aguas de Marco" (Waters of March) with a vocal by Bob's wife.   Plus a Mozart flute quartet (with the flute part played by one of Bob's friends, a professional player).  There was a jazz piece (by Bob) and a even a bluegrass gospel set.

Steve has a great knack for putting together programs that win over an audience and are great fun for the performers.   He also has a knack for attracting real strong players -- in the 2008 performance, the bass player, I think, was just finishing up a run in the Broadway pit band for "Rent"; Bob Rose was a studio guitarist in NYC before retiring; the percussionist was also a Broadway pit musician (see above re: the flutist). Then there was Steve's friend Khabu, who is fabulous on smaller 4-string instruments like the uke and the cavaquino.  

While I am partial to the PMO for obvious reasons, we are a pretty specialized group and I think the NYME is in many ways a better model for mandolin ensembles wishing to diversify beyond the standard MO repertoire AND attract good players.   The idea, in other words, is to do a few larger ensemble pieces that may be notated, but then break into smaller groups that showcase particular talents, which may be non-classical.

The PMO is doing a joint gig with the NYME late this coming spring, not sure what we will be playing yet.

One last note: I've twice done Terry Riley's "In C" with Steve on mandolins, great fun.

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## margora

"I don't think it hurts to try to recruit bluegrass musicians, but I'd also want to look for people who played other instruments in school bands or orchestras while they were growing up, and are now picking up the mandolin. Most of our long-term members have that kind of background. In a group like ours, I think the ability to follow a conductor is even more important than how well you play."

This is a very good and highly relevant point.  The PMO has such types as well (such as our concermaster, who played French horn when young).   Following a conductor is obviously a critical skill.   That said this skill can be learned fairly quickly (I had, as noted, a background in classical guitar and it did not include working with conductors).

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## mrmando

> Following a conductor is obviously a critical skill.   That said this skill can be learned fairly quickly (I had, as noted, a background in classical guitar and it did not include working with conductors).


Sure, but as a pro-level performer you had a highly developed sense of rhythm, tempo and dynamics. Learning to follow a conductor's lead for those elements would be easier for someone with your background than for a person with less musical experience.

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## margora

"Sure, but as a pro-level performer you had a highly developed sense of rhythm, tempo and dynamics. Learning to follow a conductor's lead for those elements would be easier for someone with your background than for a person with less musical experience. "

Point taken, and fair enough.

"There are also several great players in town who will show up if we're doing something cool -- like a gig with Mike Marshall or Carlo Aonzo -- but aren't interested enough to play on our other gigs."

This is also an important point.  In all honesty, this does not happen with the PMO, and we do our share of gigs with Carlo and the like.   Part of the reason is that we wouldn't let people play unless they had rehearsed regularly (on rare occasions we do if the person is an excellent reader and player with lots of ensemble experience and we need s/he to fill out a section, eg. David Miller).    On the SMO gigs without Carlo or Mike -- that is, a normal gig not a special one -- what would you have the great players in town who otherwise don't show up do? Would they be doing something special -- say a featured solo, or one of their own pieces or something else they like  -- or would they be just part of the band?

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## Bob Clark

Hello Paul and others,

I'm not far from the Philadelphia area where there are two mandloin ensembles.  I have every intention of joining one, the other or both once my skill level is such that I think I'm ready, and when my schedule lightens up a bit to allow such a committment.  But here's where my questions for you come in.  I would like to know, for your group and others who might like to comment, what skill level is necessary, and how much of a time committment is needed.

As for my skills, I read music reasonably well, to the point that I can transcribe to notation from ear, as long as I have an instrument in hand (mandloin or piano) to work it through.  As a young person (many years ago) I played in a youth symphony (trumpet), so I get the ensemble playing/conductor issues but will be very rusty at first.  My mandolin skills are less developed but I am working on it.  I can read, but my sight-reading is slow (I would need to practice a piece prior to playing with a group at-tempo or even near it).  My tremolo needs lots of work.  So, how much would someone like me have to improve before I could even think about auditioning for a mandloin orchestra? What skills must I master before I can consider it?  I think being in an orchestra would help my playing greatly, as well as my playing-confidence-level, but I need to be good enough to participate first.

My second question has to do with time committment.  Are these orchestras year-round or just certain months?  How frequently are rehersals held?

Perhaps there are others like myself who want to do this, but are not aware of the answers to questions like these.  Is there anything else you would want an aspiring orchestra member to know?  There may be others like myself, perhaps in your area, reading these posts.

Best wishes on this.  I have a CD of the Providence Mandolin Orchestra that is a real favorite of mine.  The potential to play with one of the mandolin groups in the Philadelphia area in the future was one of the reasons I chose this great little instrument.

Bob

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## mrmando

> On the SMO gigs without Carlo or Mike -- that is, a normal gig not a special one -- what would you have the great players in town who otherwise don't show up do? Would they be doing something special -- say a featured solo, or one of their own pieces or something else they like  -- or would they be just part of the band?


I'm getting the hint, I think. Brian Oberlin is doing really creative programs with the Oregon Mandolin Orchestra that feature local as well as national talent. We've worked with a local flute soloist and a fantastic soprano soloist (she'll be on our new CD), both of whom happen to be married to orchestra members ... but if we offered a spotlight to a local mandolin cat (on the condition that he/she also play in the ensemble for the rest of the gig), that would create some more interest and possibly increase our audience reach, and maybe even help out with recruitment. I don't know that we'll end up directly recruiting any of the cats on a permanent basis, but we'd be building in a higher profile for our group.

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## mrmando

> So, how much would someone like me have to improve before I could even think about auditioning for a mandloin orchestra? What skills must I master before I can consider it?  I think being in an orchestra would help my playing greatly, as well as my playing-confidence-level, but I need to be good enough to participate first.


I can't speak for the Philadelphia groups, but you sound like just the kind of person we are looking for. Ever considered moving to Seattle? 



> My second question has to do with time committment.  Are these orchestras year-round or just certain months?  How frequently are rehersals held?


We rehearse weekly. We used to take summers off, but just in the past couple of years, folks have been rehearsing year round.

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## Bob Clark

> I can't speak for the Philadelphia groups, but you sound like just the kind of person we are looking for. Ever considered moving to Seattle?


How I wish I could!  I love Seattle.  That beautiful public library alone is enough to make me want to move there.  But alas, I am anchored in place. :Frown:

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## mrmando

> The classical guitar world is shifting (pretty sharply) towards ensemble music and I think you can take advantage of this.  I think you will also find that, eventually, some guitarists will gravitate to the mandolin (that is what happened in my case), especially those that have some experience playing with a pick.
> 
> There is, though, a cost to this benefit -- you will have to amend your repertoire.   ALL of the pieces will have to have guitar parts, not just SOME of them.  Simply put, you can't ask people to sit out.


Our mandobassist has some contacts in the classical guitar world, so I suppose that if we wanted to make inroads into classical guitar we could ask him about it. We have an on-and-off mandolinist who's also a performing blues guitarist and we'd gladly use her on guitar, but thus far it hasn't quite worked out that way, and I think she's been more interested in playing her mandolin when she's with us. (Now that I think of it, however, perhaps if we arranged a few pieces for blues guitar/vocal and mandolin ensemble, we could feature her in a concert...) 

Anyhow, if we find guitarists who are willing and able, from the get-go, to double on mandolin or bass, then we needn't perform an entire overhaul of our repertoire to accommodate them.

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## lukmanohnz

> I'm looking for insight into a question that has me stumped.  Perhaps some of you can help.
> 
> Why is it that a thriving mandolin orchestra seems to have difficulty reaching out to the many fantastic bluegrass players in the community?  Why are bluegrass, celtic, jazz, and other players seemingly ambivalent about an orchestra devoted solely to their chosen instrument that exists right in their community?  
> 
> This is not a rant but a genuine question.  More to the point, what have other thriving mandolin orchestras (I'm in Seattle) done to successfully attract new members?
> 
> Do people just not know about regional mandolin orchestras?
> Do people think we only play dorky music?
> Do people think they're not slick enough at sight-reading?
> ...


It seems you got a lot of useful feedback already, but as one of those pesky ambivalent bluegrassers (though no claim to being fantastic) I'll share my thoughts.  I was asked by a local teacher to join the mandolin orchestra he organizes here, and politely declined.  For starters I don't read standard notation (but am very comfortable with tab).  I also enjoy the sonic interplay of mandolin with guitar, fiddle, etc.  It's the contrast of mandolin with those instruments that draws me to it.

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## Mandobar

if you are looking to recruit, have an open house, an open rehearsal and post notices at all the local music haunts, including music stores, open miss, jams, etc.  the atmosphere should be open friendly and inviting.  like they say, you attract more bees with honey.  folks also like to know what they are getting themselves into.

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## JeffD

I suspect its little different from any community orchestra, except that there are so many more standard orchestral musicians to recruit from.

If there were a mandolin orchestra/ensemble/quartet/club within driving distance I would be there.

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## JeffD

> It seems you got a lot of useful feedback already, but as one of those pesky ambivalent bluegrassers (though no claim to being fantastic) I'll share my thoughts.  I was asked by a local teacher to join the mandolin orchestra he organizes here, and politely declined.  For starters I don't read standard notation (but am very comfortable with tab).  I also enjoy the sonic interplay of mandolin with guitar, fiddle, etc.  It's the contrast of mandolin with those instruments that draws me to it.


I think that this is true for most bluegrassers. The enthusiasm is starts with the music.

For me its the other direction. My love for bluegrass stems from the fact that is one of the many things I can do on the mandolin.

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## beidlerp

Bob: I'm sure you'll fit in fine.  Our group meets weekly and plays 5-8 gigs a year--not a huge time committment.  I would expect a ramp-up period, though.  Most new members play a little tentatively for the first few months, which is fine and expected.  Sight-reading is one of life's true pleasures, and in the beginning it will be all sight-reading.  After a few months, though, you'll have marked all the difficult passages, written in fingerings, and basically memorized them.

I love the open house idea--we should do that.  The Seattle group can generate tab for all parts--we should choose a good variety of pieces, not too hard, and have an open tab-fest one of these nights.

As for bluegrass players, I like them because they are passionate, high-energy players with real devotion to the instrument, the history of the instrument, and to acoustic music in general.  And there are so many of them! In my limited experience, some don't want to read standard notation because they think it will limit their creativity, and others think knowing how to read better will open doors to new ideas.  Both are correct, to some extent, but if we could reach out to the latter group, we could build our ranks and make a truly big and glorious sound.

As for breaks and solos and such: if you play in the first section, you will definitely get to play fast, difficult, show-offy, impressive material pretty regularly.  It won't be improvisational, necessarilly, but if you want the spotlight, we can make it happen.

As for conductors, the trick there is to find a conductor and then find a way to pay the conductor.  Following the conductor is more a decision than a skill.  It's just accepting and remembering that the conductor is someone other than yourself.  

Let me frame my original question another way.

Football players occasionally study ballet because they are told or convinced it will make them better football players.

Hockey players don't study figure skating because they are not told or convinced it will make them better hockey players.  But I bet it would.  

I think bluegrass players (and others) would play in orchestras if they thought it would make them better bluegrass pickers.  And I think it would.  So the question is HOW does playing in an orchestra (or "ensemble"--sheesh!) make you a better player in general--including a better improviser and jammer?  Once we're clear on the message, we just have to get the word out.  I have some thoughts on this, but I'd love to hear what others think.

Paul

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## mrmando

I can think of several qualities a good bluegrass player might bring to an orchestra. And I can articulate how playing in a mandolin orchestra contributes to one's all-around musicianship. But I'm not sure if there's anything one picks up in an orchestra setting that (a) can't be learned elsewhere and (b) is specifically beneficial for bluegrass.

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## Beanzy

You do learn some brilliant harmony, melody and counter-point ideas if you're listening to the other parts in an orchestra/ensemble.
Even more so if you move around between desks and learn the other parts as you really know what you're playing into. Many BG players would really benefit from much of that as I often hear others chiding themselves for not being more adventurous or for always playing the same riffs etc. Taking those 'composed' and often overwrought ideas back to BG playing would let many players get away from only having speed as their only way to excel. Being able to get folks to tip an ear by your new melody or harmony/back-up ideas would be a bit of a seller for me. .

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## John Flynn

I moved to Pittsburgh two years ago, which has one of the oldest (started in 1921, although it went dormant for a while) and largest (40 members) mandolin orchestras in the country. I know a guy who is in it, who really likes it, and they have an open invitation for people to sit in on their rehearsals. Yet I have to admit I have never had much interest in even attending a performance. I guess that makes me part of your target demographic, people who play mandolin but have yet to be interested. As such, I can offer my own personal answers to your questions:
Do people just not know about regional mandolin orchestras? Doubtful, however, if that is the case, then it's just a matter of advertising.Do people think we only play dorky music? I respect the music, it's just not what interests me.Do people think they're not slick enough at sight-reading? That is a concern I would have, although I read music, I just don't "sight-read-cold-at-speed."  I think I could get by, though. Our orchestra provides all the sheet music in advance and if I can learn a tune slowly on my own using notation, I could follow the music at performances.Do people just prefer more improvizational genres? I don't. I can improvize blues and bluegrass pretty well, but I don't prefer it. I am more of an old-time/Celtic melody player.Do people not want to pay the membership dues? Not an issue.

If you were going to run an outreach campaign to attract new members, what do you think would be most likely to work? Free seminars on sight-reading? Doubtful. I don't think you are going to improve someone's reading enough to make a difference in a few seminars. I could be wrong, but I can say it wouldn't motivate me.Getting access to the band and orchestra geeks in the schools? I think you might be on to something there. We have a big strings program in our school district and some of these teenagers are GOOD. They compete like crazy for a few slots in local amatuer orchestras. If you want to offer seminars, I would offer seminars in teaching good violin-family teenage players lessons on mandolin-family instruments, including holding out slots on your orchestra as an incentive. And don't just promote the idea directly to them, promote it to their schools and their parents. The adults will see they show up.Getting local teachers (who may be too busy to join) to send us their student? I would say doubtful, but I could be wrong. Playing gigs with local bluegrass bands? Really doubtful. There are exceptions, but I don't think most 'grassers, old-timers and session players are your prime recruiting group.Or should we just stay small? That's up to you guys, but I don't think that is your only option.

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## Mandobar

John, go sit in with the orchestra.  Charlie Rappaport does a great job with orchestration.  From what i understand he does the arranging and writes out parts.  He is a great player as well as a great teacher.  If I lived in Pittsburgh I'd join in a minute.  He has picked out quite a few mandolins for me at Acoustic Music Works (where he teaches).

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## uno

Hey Paul,

Chiming in a bit late here.  Although I may be repeating some of the previously mentioned blockers, here are the obstacles I faced in joining the SMO:

1) Time. Although rehearsals are only one night a week, to really ramp up, learn the songs, learn to sight read, and stay on top of the tunes takes a considerable amount of time. When I factor in other hobbies, family/social commitments, etc, I realize something else needed to be dropped to make it happen. 

2) Repertoire. As a few folks pointed out, many people play Bluegrass/Celtic/Folk because they know and love the music. I love bluegrass, and I love to play it with other people. Although I may recognize a few popular classical pieces, I do not know many songs and have not the faintest idea about the stylistic differences between Bach, Handel, Mozart, etc.  I just don’t know what I like and don’t like in classical compositions.  Part of the incentive for me to learn a song is that I have heard a version that really caught my ear.

3) Sight reading.  As mentioned above, this takes some time to learn.  It’s not a huge commitment to get this down, but it can be an intimidating task for those who have zero experience reading music.  When the music is played at speed, I just could not keep up with the tempo.  Practice and study would have addressed this in the long run, but I’ll point back to obstacle #1… 

That being said, the attraction of joining the SMO was the potential to expand my repertoire, learn to sight read, and play in a structured ensemble setting.   At the end of the day, though, it comes down to time for me. 

In regard to recruiting, here are some ideas:
1)	I think finding a channel to the youth in the classical scene could have a significant payoff. High school/college students probably have more free time to dedicate to practice and rehearsals. In addition, they may be able to pull in additional members from their school orchestras or music schools. (Local recruiting opportunity: http://www.acousticsound.org/youth.html  "The Wintergrass Youth Orchestra aims to bridge the gap between classical and oral traditions." I’ll bet you could get some violin students interested in picking up the mandolin and giving the SMO a try…)

2)	I like the idea of an SMO open house.   Providing a small collection of five popular, widely-recognized classical pieces in both tab and standard notation with an accompanying mp3 cd or access to downloadable content would be great.  The interested parties could then practice at their own pace and ideally have a few songs down when they come to their first rehearsal.  I think the key to the popular selection is that they are melodies everyone will recognize.  Having a strong and recognizable melody will make it easier to learn. These do not need to be pieces that the SMO performs regularly, but rather a hook to pull in new members unfamiliar with classical music.

The SMO is a wonderful group of players.  Everyone I met was extremely supportive and passionate about the music.  If/When I get some free time in the weekly schedule, I will certainly be contacting you guys to get involved.  In the meantime, please keep me in the loop for performances so I can come out and support!

Anthony

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## KristinEliza

> If there were a mandolin orchestra/ensemble/quartet/club within driving distance I would be there.


Me too  :Frown:   I've been trying to recruit (unsuccessfully) some of my fellow musicians to play mandolin for the past 5 years...

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## Jack Roberts

> I think a big part of it is that mandolin players are generally more like cats than dogs.


And the Dawg is one cool cat!

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## violmando

As a former member of the Dayton Mandolin Orchestra, I cannot say enough about using TAB. I know the Providence group and several others do not, but if you are in need of more members, TRY using TAB for some of them. Nowadays with computer programs it's not hard to do and we have gotten some good players who just weren't good enough music readers that way. I think having a varied repertoire also keeps membership up. I'm one of several who quit the group when the repertoire's emphasis became almost entirely classical, much of it string orchestra based. BTW, I am a bowed string musician with 2 music degrees; we tried to recruit from area orchestras, but there is actually a shortage in general of strings in town.

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## violmando

In regards to High School recruiting, today's HS student is VERY busy and MOST do not have the time to join another group unless you can get them in groups. The DMO has had young ones come to a few rehearsals, but since we've seldom had more than one at a time, they never last. The good musicians in HS are usually ALREADY in an outside musical group, plus sports, maybe theater or another club or a job. NO TIME. Nicer if you can start a feeder group for YOUNGER musicians....

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