# Octaves, Zouks, Citterns, Tenors and Electrics > Tenor Guitars >  Tenor banjo tuned GDAE, 17 fret or 19 fret?

## dang

I have been looking at the deering tenor banjos, and really want to get one. I have a blue ridge tenor guitar tuned GDAE and I love it, so I figure this won't be much of a stretch to add a banjo sound to my arsenal. 

My main concern is about the 17 fret model tuned GDAE, a previous thread I read reported the dreaded "floppy G string" (let's keep that in context) and I really hate that. 

Looking for opinions about the 17 vs 19 fret models tuned GDAE and some information about the different models. Any big benefit from paying more, because these seem to get really pricey!

Thanks in advance,
Dan

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## fox

20 inch scale tenor banjos can be tuned GDAE but you need a .50 G string and some folk don't like such a thick string.
In my mind 23" scale tenor banjos work & sound better for Irish tunes, I use .42 .28 .17p .11p on my 23" scale banjo. That is quite a bit lighter than I would use on a 23" tenor guitar but for some reason 20" banjos don't seem to like light strings.
Of course that is just my findings with my own instruments.  
I played tenor banjo for years but since I got into tenor guitars I just don't like the banjos anymore. I find the lack of sustain and dull sound on short scale tenor banjos disappointing however you can fit them with heavy nylon & that is what is on my 20" banjo now.

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dang

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## Jim Garber

I found an amazing ca. 1921 Vega Tubaphone tenor banjo with an almost 12" head that is just about the right scale length (21") for me to pretty much use mandolin fingering in first position. Makes it easier to switch back and forth. I know that players do use that fingering even on the longer scale banjos but this one is just right for me. I do have a 19 fret B&D that I might try in Irish tuning but for right now the Vega is great.

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dang

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## fox

Tuned CGDA though Jim?

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## Jim Garber

Nope. The Vega is tuned GDAE. I think I have the GHS custom set ( https://www.elderly.com/accessories/...string-set.htm )from Elderly on it.

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## Jill McAuley

I played 17 fret tenors for years and last year switched to a 19 fret tenor (first a '92 Deering Standard model, and now my Ome Juniper open back). The bigger stretch was easier to acclimate to than I originally had anticipated. For me I prefer the sound, and there are also just more options out there if you play 19 fret tenors. I use mandolin fingering to play still and it hasn't been a problem.

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dang

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## Mike Snyder

My beloved is a Rettberg-Lange Orpheum #1 17 fret. Never measured, but it's short. I struggled with string sets for years until someone on the cafe suggested mandola sets. Now using Tomastic 174W light strings and problem solved. Excellent volume from the low G and the wound strings last forever. You get two sets per package and they are pricey but glorious sounding and no problems. The pack has no no numeric sizing, but the G cannot be any larger than .048 and feels great. The CGDA sound is just not for me. I want plunky with low end growl. Playing old-time and ITM and even heavily muted I must take care not to dig in too much. Great tone all night. The wires get replaced due to corrosion but the wound strings just play on and on. This has really been an eye opener discovery for me. I was really unhappy with banjo strings for a long time. Now it's pure joy.

Ok, just looked them up @ juststrings. It's an octave mandolin set and the G is .049. $65 before shipping. Good picking!

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dang

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## Jim Garber

> Ok, just looked them up @ juststrings. It's an octave mandolin set and the G is .049. $65 before shipping. Good picking!


About $10 cheaper for *those strings* on Amazon.

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## dang

Thanks for all the replies!

Wow, I feel like I need to play a couple of these to really know what is going on 

Glad there are solutions to the G string issue...

I have been doing some searches and I think I need to get to the Bradford and Franzke shop in KC, they have a bunch of tenor banjos listed in the classifieds.  

Any opinions about vintage vs new/newer tenors banjos?
I tend to gravitate towards newer instruments only because I have found some vintage stuff difficult to play.

Dan

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## Jill McAuley

I've had some lovely vintage tenor banjos, but my  preference is for newer banjos. My Ome Juniper open back tenor banjo is a joy to play.

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dang

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## Mike Snyder

I'll probably stay with juststrings.com for the Tomastics just because I know they'll be there when I need them. But thanks, Jim. Someone experimenting with strings needs all the break they can get.

Vintage banjos can have problems and one must shop carefully. I got mine by posting a want ad here on the cafe. Very straight forward and easy transaction. The most probable scenario is non-geared tuners. That was not a DIY project for me. A luthier or good banjo repair person has the right reamers to do it right the first time. The old friction tuners are a headache.

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dang

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## fox

I cant remember the last time I bought a string set for a 5th tuned instrument!
 I buy single guitar strings from my local music store.
You can get virtually any size string you want, not just single strings that make up a guitar set but any size or more importantly the correct size to match you own style and preference.
Some vintage tenor banjo have geared tuners and were built using other high quality materials, I have been down the vintage route, I personally think you get a far better deal buying new or nearly new. Unless you like the mojo & possible increasing value of a vintage banjo, I would, from a players perspective, choose a modern one.

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dang, 

Jill McAuley

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## Jill McAuley

Enda Scahill writes in his first Irish Tenor Banjo tutor about using guitar strings, and I remember asking Angelina Carberry about what strings she used back in the day and she too preferred to just buy guitar strings in her preferred gauges.

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fox

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## Jim Garber

As far as vintage vs. new, some depends on the tonal qualities you like. These days it looks like most of the upper echelon ITM players prefer new instruments with clear plastic heads that give the least overtones and that crisp tone that works well with a room full of fiddles or pipes. 

I have been exploring ITM tunes a bit on the TB but my main interest is Old Time and contradance musics. For me, mostly playing by myself or else playing with a few folks, I like the funky sound of a skin head or a more textured plastic one like Renaissance or Fiberskyn. The worst part of the Vega I have is the old friction pegs but I was able to find modern copies that will work and have gears in them. 

I am not sure that you can necessarily get a better deal on a new banjo. Mine was only $450 including shipping plus $135 for the tuners. The head is old but still has many more years left in it. The other thing with banjos is that, for the most part, they are much easier to work on than mandolins or guitars and you can adjust action or change a head pretty easily.

BTW I am not arguing for vintage instruments, just that it depends on what you want. I love the videos I have seen of Enda and Jill and some of the other excellent TB players out there and love the tone they get.

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dang, 

Jill McAuley

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## dang

I really appreciate everyone's opinions, now I've got to get a few in my hands so I can sort out what's in my head vs how they feel and sound in my hands. 

Stupid question, I was planning on using a flat pick. Is that mostly how people play these?  I don't do well at all with finger picks... is that pretty much a 5-string thing?

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## fox

Yep .60mm Dunlop grey pick is the standard recommendation - for GDAE Irish tunes anyway.

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dang

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## Bertram Henze

I used to play a 19fret back in my band time and never had any problems with mandolin fingering. What helps you is that the forces needed for fretting are so much less than on the mandolin (less tension, half the number of strings, softer picking for the same volume).

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dang

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## pheffernan

> I've had some lovely vintage tenor banjos, but my  preference is for newer banjos. My Ome Juniper open back tenor banjo is a joy to play.


So for players who might be looking for an excuse to buy another instrument, what builders are currently producing tenor banjos with vintage styling but more modern conveniences?  :Whistling:

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## Mike Snyder

I cannot play with a thin pick. Too much history with the mandolin. I use a Wegen TF 100 or 120. Causes some volume issues but gives me the plunky sound I like when heavily muted. Triplets sound like a snare drum.

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## Jill McAuley

> So for players who might be looking for an excuse to buy another instrument, what builders are currently producing tenor banjos with vintage styling but more modern conveniences?


I think Jim Patton's banjos would fall into that category - he has two different tone rings for his models, a Tubaphone style, and one he calls the Whitechapel. One of his banjos is definitely on my "want" list one of these days.

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dang, 

pheffernan

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## Jill McAuley

Here's Stevie Dunne playing one of Jim Patton's banjos:



And John Carty's daughter, Maggie Carty plays one as well:

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pheffernan

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## Jim Garber

Interesting, Jill. The tone is lot more mellow than the usual Irish TB. There are so many vintage Vega tenors out there, I wonder if you could get the same sound from one of those that you could get from a new one and what the difference would be. My TB was pretty inexpensive but, of course, I prefer a much different tone than most ITM players. I do like the sound of the JP banjos, tho I could not get the site to show up in my browser.

My Tubaphone has a skin head which is probably the polar opposite of what the ITM players want. At some point I might change it out for a Renaissance or similar. I still like the more mellow sound but I am not playing in any ITM sesiuns.

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## Jill McAuley

Having had an old Vega Style M myself, I think the attraction of spending more cash on one of Jim Patton's banjos (for me anyway) would be all the modern conveniences already in place, with a vintage look and sound. I'm sure you could dial in similar tone on a vintage banjo but for me I just got tired of seeking out vintage tenors only to discover that the neck was twisted, frets worn, friction tuners needing replaced etc.

The JP banjos do have a different tone from other banjos. My Ome Juniper would be similar in that trait, which is why I was drawn to it. I saw a video of John Carty playing one and immediately thought "That's the tone I want from a banjo..." He has played an old Clifford Essex Paragon for years, which itself had a slightly more mellow tone than your average resonator banjo, but has been playing the Ome open backs and endorsing them, citing the ease of play and lack of "finicky" traits that vintage banjos can have.

I also think my preference for tenor banjo tone was shaped by the fact that when I was starting out my two favourite players were (and still are) Angelina Carberry and John Carty. Angelina plays an open back Oakwood tenor and I've already mentioned how the Paragon John Carty used to play always had a warmer tone than you tend to hear from other banjos played in ITM. Additionally, when I used to take lessons from Angelina I had a wonderful old Chas. A. Stromberg open back tenor, which was slightly similar in looks to Angelina's Oakwood, but so different to play in comparison. One time she let me have a go of her Oakwood and the ease of play (low action, bigger fretwire, comfortable neck) was strikingly different to the Stromberg. Maybe that's what influenced me to lean towards modern builds as well.

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pheffernan

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## Jeff Hildreth

Just a note on "Irish" tenor banjo tuning.

Elmer Snowden, an African American banjoist, composer and band leader played in  GDAE tuning from the 1920's on through to the 1950s and beyond.   He played Jazz and Swing.. not certain he called it "Irish" tuning nor do I suspect he called the 17 fretters Irish Banjos.

An example of his playing can be found on a CD entitled Harlem Banjo   Riverside label   OJCCD-1756-2. Limited Edition Jazz Classics.
One of my favorites.

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Jill McAuley

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## Narayan Kersak

I had a 17 fretter that I played for a long time that I loved.  It let me really do some of those tunes that seemed out of reach on a 19 fret. 

I really don't know what brand it was.  It was old and it was cheap.  

https://youtu.be/Mvv1VBs_Wg0

You can see it in action there.

Everyone told me to get a longer scale and I didn't listen.  Until one day I did.

I found a killer early 90's Deering Sierra Model.  It took me a while to get used to, but eventually learned to just shift up the neck instead of trying to reach the higher notes.  I really like to have those lighter Deering strings I think that are meant to be used for a jazz tuning.  They have great sustain, and still tons of volume and lets me do some fun pull offs and vibrato.  And I tune it GDAE.  Sometimes I do swap out the G for a heavier gauge, especially when I know I'm going to be playing tunes like Farewell to Erin, or The Castle, which does give it more growl.  But I really have no problem with those thinner stock Deering lighter gauge strings.  I've noticed they give it more sustain.  Makes me feel like I have to do less rather than clutter it all up with all those hiccupy triplets... which are cool... for a while.

I also use a really thick pick, like a V-pick pointed 1.5 or so.  Most people say to use thin picks, but I've found you can hold a thicker pick super lightly and still have speed for triplets AND it really gives some great tone to the banjo.

The other day at a session in Durham, I had three people actually say... wow... that banjo sounds sweet AND we can hear it over the 10 other players.  I've never gotten that feedback using thinner picks... that's when you get that trebly biting sound (IMHO).

Long scale is great.  Got to learn to shift up the neck.  Heavy picks are awesome once you get the feel for it.

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## fox

In the same vane, Gerry O Conner (very well know Irish tenor banjo player & author) tunes CGDA.

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## dang

Well I finally got a tenor banjo in my hands, it was a really inexpensive one, 17 fret, and tuned GDAE. I didn’t like it. 

So I think I will be looking into the 19 fret versions, playability is a concern for me so vintage may not be an option. And I need to keep this on the less expensive side so small luthier is probably out of the question. 

The deering good time is my front runner, is the goodtime 2 worth the extra cost?

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## Jill McAuley

Gold Tone tenors are quite decent for the money. I've played several and was impressed with their playability. Of the two I prefer the Gold Tone over the Good Time, but that's just me.

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dang

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## Jim Garber

Here's a really strange question? I just got my very short scale Gibson TB-Jr back from the person I lent it to. I have some steel wound strings on it and the lowest do not sound all that great. The scale length is only 19". I was wondering how I would go about it to string it octave tuning with nylon or Nylgut strings. Anybody have a clue?

I have some classical guitar strings and I might try those and see how they work. It looks like you can't necessarily compare the gauges of steel strings to nylon.

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## fox

Hi Jim. I find that, generally speaking, banjos work best with pretty low tension strings compared to tenor guitars.
For GDAE in nylon you can try .30 .42 .36w .50w. You could use a wound .22 for the A that will sound great but feels a bit mismatched surrounded by thicker strings.
CGDA = .22 .30 .30w .40w the .22 A will be near breaking but feels good.
DGBE is the easy one for a 19" scale as any baritone uke set will be great.

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Jim Garber

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