# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Fern Loar F5 Attic Find

## Hendrik Ahrend

Looks like there just another never before documented LL: http://www.gbase.com/gear/gibson-f-5...-1924-sunburst

As it apparently sounds great, looks absolutely gorgeous and only costs 165k, it'd really tempting. As for the original frets, they are not, as far as I can tell.

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hank, 

RichieK

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## William Smith

I believe this is the San Jose CA, flea market Loar that was bought for 20 bucks over a year ago? There is some Lore right there!

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Pilot172000

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## Hendrik Ahrend

I believe, you're right, Billy, that should be the one. Don't know, how long it has been available through g.base.

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## allenhopkins

> ... only costs 165k...


"Only" and ""165k" don't belong in the same sentence, IMHO -- unless you're talking about a house...

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Bob Schmidt, 

doc holiday, 

G7MOF, 

hank, 

Rick Jones

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## FLATROCK HILL

That's a beauty for sure! 

One thing (maybe a few things) that I don't understand. If you're Joe Weed (who is quoted in the ad) and you own a Loar, why would you make the statement "This one blows mine away!"? 

First of all, if it's really that good, I'd think you'd want to keep still and work out some kind of a trade. I know I would. 
And second, doesn't that statement sort of devalue the one you own? 

I don't know. It doesn't matter I guess, but it doesn't make much sense.

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hank, 

O. Apitius

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## rcc56

That instrument has been listed on Reverb for the past 7 months.

Anyone who is seriously interested in the mandolin would probably be best off inspecting it _very_ carefully in person before they pull the trigger.  "This instrument falls under our used/vintage policy and is therefore not eligible for return."  In other words, if something is not right, "Sorry Charlie."

I will add that most of the long established vintage dealers who handle Loars, pre-war Martin 45s, and original Granadas have a return policy.

The instrument is probably fine, but I would advise any buyer to require a current letter of authentication from Gryphon [since the instrument is in California] or another highly qualified third party; unless you know old Gibsons _really_ well.

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## mrmando

Well, it does say Gary Vessel had a go at it; Gary has built some acclaimed Loar copies and certainly is no dummy when it comes to authenticity. One could ask him about it.

Ad begins, "Not only is this one of the rarest of all Loar signed F-5’s ..." I am not sure what that is supposed to mean. In what sense is an individual Loar rarer than another? There are 34 other known Loar mandolins with the same signature date, not to mention a number of H5 mandolas and L5 guitars. 

This one is currently listed in the Archive, without photos. Archive and the Reverb ad mention that it has a Virzi.

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hank, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Paul Statman

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## William Smith

Its the real deal, They said they haven't even set it up? To me that's nuts! Get that thing running right and I'm sure it may sell better but lots of Loars have been sitting a long time without getting bought at dealers. I believe its a small market on who buys these things, not everyone is going to shell out their hard earned cash like that unless they are die hard man! Loar prices sure aint what they were. I believe its because there are so many great independent builders out there, but still there is only so many of the REAL deal!

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## Jeff Mando

> I will add that most of the long established vintage dealers who handle Loars, pre-war Martin 45s, and original Granadas have a return policy.


In addition, I will add that someone is paying for the item to be authentic, which goes beyond just a normal return period.  Many "vintage dealers" have been taken to court for misrepresenting a high dollar instrument, if it is later to be found to be repaired, or otherwise non-original, etc.  THIS can occur YEARS after the sale has taken place.

Not saying anything is wrong with this instrument, of course.  It looks very nice.  NFI.

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## MikeZito

As is sometimes the case - the 'story' can be just as (or more) entertaining as the mandolin . . .

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## rcc56

> Ad begins, "Not only is this one of the rarest of all Loar signed F-5’s ..." I am not sure what that is supposed to mean. In what sense is an individual Loar rarer than another? There are 34 other known Loar mandolins with the same signature date, not to mention a number of H5 mandolas and L5 guitars.


They are calling it rare because it has a fern peghead.

They are also selling a 1942 L-00 that they are calling "one of the latest pre-war Gibsons we have seen."   :Whistling:   They are asking $6000 for it [!!!].  They didn't bother to clip the string ends at the tuners before they took the pictures.

They are also selling a 1964 LG-1 for $2400 [!!!!].

There are enough disclaimers in their "Returns-used/vintage gear" no returns policy to keep a lawyer busy for 3 months.  Caveat emptor.

'Nuff said.

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## William Smith

If I had cash I'd offer 100G for the F-5 and they would still be making a profit! Nowadays Loars aren't bringing 150-200K!

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## rcc56

My concept of "rare" in Loar signed instruments would include the following:

1.   F-5 with one piece back
2.   F-5 with "side binding"
3.   K-5 mandocello

There are 24 ferns listed in the archive.  Undoubtedly, there are others that are not listed.

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Paul Statman, 

Timbofood

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## RichieK

Billy, I think if you offered $40 they’d be ahead..haha.

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William Smith

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## O. Apitius

> That's a beauty for sure! 
> 
> One thing (maybe a few things) that I don't understand. If you're Joe Weed (who is quoted in the ad) and you own a Loar, why would you make the statement "This one blows mine away!"? 
> 
> First of all, if it's really that good, I'd think you'd want to keep still and work out some kind of a trade. I know I would. 
> And second, doesn't that statement sort of devalue the one you own? 
> 
> I don't know. It doesn't matter I guess, but it doesn't make much sense.


I like your powers of reason. I have a a couple of mottoes that I live by, one goes, 'if it don't make sense, it isn't.'

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FLATROCK HILL, 

hank

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## Mandolin Cafe

Actually, this one has been documented for awhile, just not with pictures, so says Dan at the Mandolin Archive.

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/76785

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hank, 

Paul Statman

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## Timbofood

Well, let me check my lotto numbers and I’ll get right on that one! Well, after the bathroom remodel.

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## slimt

Lot of money for a conversation piece..

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## f5joe

> My concept of "rare" in Loar signed instruments would include the following:
> 
> 1.   F-5 with one piece back
> 2.   F-5 with "side binding"
> 3.   K-5 mandocello
> 
> There are 24 ferns listed in the archive.  Undoubtedly, there are others that are not listed.


I may be wrong, but I'm thinking there are only two Loars with one-piece backs.  I've seen them both.  Have heard of a third but have not seen it.

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RichieK

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Well then: "only" 165k.  :Smile:

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## fatt-dad

> My concept of "rare" in Loar signed instruments would include the following:
> 
> 1.   F-5 with one piece back
> 2.   F-5 with "side binding"
> 3.   K-5 mandocello
> 
> There are 24 ferns listed in the archive.  Undoubtedly, there are others that are not listed.


Can we also add the A5?  I'd love to play a few notes on that one. But buying it?!?!?  That's a rare instrument!

f-d

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j. condino, 

Paul Statman

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## f5joe

> Can we also add the A5?  I'd love to play a few notes on that one. But buying it?!?!?  That's a rare instrument!
> 
> f-d


The A-5 is a fabulous instrument with all the Loar tone.  Tut was kind enough to let me play it about 20 years ago.

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fatt-dad, 

hank, 

j. condino

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## fatt-dad

> The A-5 is a fabulous instrument with all the Loar tone.  Tut was kind enough to let me play it about 20 years ago.


Yes!  I know a few of our café folks have played that Loar A5.  What fun!

f-d

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## Willie Poole

F-5 Joe...Are you sure it was only 20 years ago that Tut let you play the A-5...I didn`t know he had it then, but I don`t keep up with such things.....

    Willie

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## j. condino

> The A-5 is a fabulous instrument with all the Loar tone.  Tut was kind enough to let me play it about 20 years ago.



That is my personal favorite of all I have played. If I had the $$$, I'd pair it up with the snakehead mandola for everything I'd ever need! Ok, maybee a snakehead L5 too....

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## William Smith

> That is my personal favorite of all I have played. If I had the $$$, I'd pair it up with the snakehead mandola for everything I'd ever need! Ok, maybee a snakehead L5 too....


Pretty soon I'll have a snakehead 1924 Tenor Lute to Mandola conversion, Gary Vessel is doing it for me as I had a really beat to almost death TL so they have a mandola body and I've heard they make a great mandola. Also heard they have the same internal graduations as a Loar H-5?

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## Br1ck

They are looking for a collector to buy it, not a player, hence the hands off approach. I mean, who wouldn't want a Loar with original strings?

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Jeff Mando

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## f5joe

> F-5 Joe...Are you sure it was only 20 years ago that Tut let you play the A-5...I didn`t know he had it then, but I don`t keep up with such things.....
> 
>     Willie


I'd have to dig ....... it may have been slightly over 20 years ago.  It was fairly soon before he sold it, as best I remember.

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## j. condino

> Pretty soon I'll have a snakehead 1924 Tenor Lute to Mandola conversion, Gary Vessel is doing it for me as I had a really beat to almost death TL so they have a mandola body and I've heard they make a great mandola. Also heard they have the same internal graduations as a Loar H-5?


As far as I know, I have the only graduation map of the snakehead mandola in existence, 'hacked a couple of years ago when it first surfaced. You or Gary can call the shop and we'll nerd out on the details if it helps........

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## Jeff Mando

> They are looking for a collector to buy it, not a player, hence the hands off approach. I mean, who wouldn't want a Loar with original strings?


I was at a major collector car show 25-30 years ago, and they had a pair of 1955 Ford Thunderbirds that were from a collection, neither car was ever used or driven any distance, each had LESS THAN 50 original miles (that's 50, NOT 50K!, OK?) and both cars had the original tires.  In this case, I don't think anyone would want to buy them to actually use, just display, IMHO.  I'm not sure if music people would feel the same about owning a Loar and not playing it???

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## Timbofood

> They are looking for a collector to buy it, not a player, hence the hands off approach. I mean, who wouldn't want a Loar with original strings?


Like an original model T with factory oil!

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## Timbofood

> I was at a major collector car show 25-30 years ago, and they had a pair of 1955 Ford Thunderbirds that were from a collection, neither car was ever used or driven any distance, each had LESS THAN 50 original miles (that's 50, NOT 50K!, OK?) and both cars had the original tires.  In this case, I don't think anyone would want to buy them to actually use, just display, IMHO.  I'm not sure if music people would feel the same about owning a Loar and not playing it???


Yep, collectors are an “interesting” bunch, I’d play it for a while at least, but, I would put fresh strings on it.

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## testore

Its a GREAT mandolin!!

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Timbofood, 

William Smith

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## Todd Bowman

Would the binding really be that white if its been "untouched"  My 1925 F4 has been touched, and its binding is yellow where the varnish has aged, and white(r) where the varnish is worn off (e.g., neck binding).  Just curious?

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## hank

I contacted the sellers before the holidays and requested their assistance in a forum discussion with a photo of the original string packs in the case.  I thanked him for the window into time for our discussion.  He said it might be a while but would try to get a photo to me.  Perhaps if he is following this thread he could post it here.

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## Timbofood

Really? String chronology is the point here? This is derailment at deadmans curve on the old 97!
Sorry Hank but, this is pretty far afield from the OP, case contents seems like an odd pursuit on this one but, I’m not in the market either way.

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hank

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## RichieK

Oddly, Feb 18 and March 31 ‘24 Loars do have white binding in those areas. Definitely unique.

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William Smith

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## hank

Omit my post.  As you were.

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## Jack-0

I have a story:
I worked with a fellow in 1999-2000 in Silicon Valley (Cupertino), I cant remember his name-Richard something, maybe. When he was introduced to me I gave him my personal card with my illustration of a generic F5 mandolin on it. It was a conversation starter because when people would say "nice guitar, do you play?", I would reply "No, it's not a guitar-it's a 1923, Gibson F5 Master Model Mandolin, Lloyd Loar signature model". Then I would have to explain what that was and it was only a picture and not real etc, etc. Richard replied "Oh, I have one of those and several other old Gibson banjos and guitars that I am collecting for my retirement fund". My jaw dropped and I said "you have a 1923, Gibson F5 Master Model Mandolin, Lloyd Loar signature model??!!" He says, "Well technically no, because it's a 1924". I was still incredulous and asked him to bring it into work and show it to me. He said-no problem. Next day, there it was. In original case, with original green canvas zip up bag around the case. He said he was second owner and got it in 60's era from widow of original owner. Original owner rarely played it and it sat under the bed after he passed. It looked absolutely pristine to my eye, had original strings, and Virzi.  Just as if it had sat under the bed all these years. I looked at the label but only remember March, 1924 and "The  Signature" but not the date. I seem to remember some extra strings in the case-brand unknown.  When I picked it up, I started to tune it and Richard immediately freaked and said "No tuning, I don't want any tension on it!" Embarrassed, I said no problem but at least take my picture holding it. Which he did with my old Sony 1megapixel  digicam. It's very low res but I will see if I can find it and post it. 
When I see these Loar find stories I always think of Richard and what ever happened to him and his collection. Is this the same one?

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Hendrik Ahrend, 

Jeff Mando, 

William Smith

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## William Smith

A friend of mines Dad, said he knew a guy I want to say from Ohio that's Blind and he has a Loar F-5 that he plays all the time, I don't remember any names but knowing my friends Dad he's not one to BS! So there is one that more than likely isn't in the archives? Loars are still out there for sure! Just take a look at serial #'s and you can see the perhaps missing ones.

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## Hendrik Ahrend

> Really? String chronology is the point here? This is derailment at deadmans curve on the old 97!
> Sorry Hank but, this is pretty far afield from the OP, case contents seems like an odd pursuit on this one but, I’m not in the market either way.


Interesting derailment, keep going friends! :Smile:

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Timbofood

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## Timbofood

Hank’s post did jog the little grey cells a bit so, I started an”Odd case stuff” thread in equipment subheading.
It is an interesting tangent, I agree. It always strikes me funny how things can head off in so many directions, we are an interested bunch aren’t we?

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## Jeff Mando

> When I picked it up, I started to tune it and Richard immediately freaked and said "No tuning, I don't want any tension on it!"


Another reason not to tune -- not hardly a Loar, but a couple years ago I picked up an Army Navy from eBay and when I got it, I unwrapped it and immediately started to tune the old rusty strings.  Normal curiosity, I guess.  Well, about three half-turns of the D-string tuner and the knob crumbles into three pieces!  I was in shock -- why didn't I just wait?  Why did I want to tune it so bad, habit?  Why couldn't I have waited to check it out and lubricate the tuners first and put fresh strings on it?  I just sat there, feeling really stupid!

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## Hendrik Ahrend

No kidding; I‘ve always enjoyed your posts, Timothy.

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Timbofood

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## Buck

It's not unheard to sell rare/valuable vintage instruments without having even routine repair work done first.  Some buyers are very concerned about original condition and they have their own preferences in repairmen and methods.  Not having the work done before the sale allows the buyer complete control of that, and may drive the price higher than having the work done first.  That's very different than something like a 1950's player grade instrument.  I've seen prewar Martins sold as-is for that exact reason.

I know of at least one similar Loar example.  A friend of mine who is a well know repairman/restoration expert on vintage Martins, up to and including prewar D-45's, bought an F-5 Loar that needed some minor work.  Even though he had the skills to execute those repairs, he had Steve Gilchrist do the work.  If he or his heirs decided to sell the mandolin, he wanted Gilchrist's name associated with the repairs rather than his own.  When we start talking about six figure instruments, buyers are necessarily concerned about future value and how to protect their investment - even if they ultimately intend to play that investment.

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AlanN

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## Timbofood

Thanks Henry, I can be pretty cantankerous and very opinionated. The good thing is, I know that about myself!

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Hendrik Ahrend

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## danb

I've got gibson branded strings from the 1900s-1930s.. enough to string up a Loar. Some years ago we pooled together and measured the gauges on them, there is probably an old thread.. they were pretty close to D'Addario J74s

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jim simpson

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## GTison

Jeff: "the knob crumbles into three pieces!"

I understand about the not tuning the investment instrument.  Years ago now I was playing my friends 29 Fern.  It was out of tune so I was trying to tune it.  It was hard to turn, I knew the real shell key button looked weak.  So, I told him it looked like it would break. He said go ahead tune it.  I tried but the key fractured in two pieces.  I felt terrible about that.  He subsequently had a new set of Waverlys installed and put the old ones in the case.  So, now it can be tuned anyway.  I haven't seen it since.  I wonder why?

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Jeff Mando

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## Paul Statman

> Can we also add the A5?  I'd love to play a few notes on that one. But buying it?!?!?  That's a rare instrument!
> 
> f-d


Beyond rare, being the one and only 'Griffith Loar' A-5, it is unique.

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## mrmando

Well, the San Jose Loar has made its way into the Cafe Classifieds now.

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## Jeff Mando

Just an observation, but it seems they sell quicker at $20 than they do at $165,000

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Paul Statman

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## shylock3

[    I got a call from an older dealer about a month back, I had bought a Loar and a 26 Fern from him a few years back. He wanted to know if I need a another Loar, I told him I had 5 and wasn't in the market. He ask me what I thought he should give for it, so he could make some money on it. I told him if I was buying I wouldn't want to have over about 90k in it. He in turn ask would I give that for it, to which I told him no. The price has come down considerable, the millennials could care less about one. All antiques are declining in price because of this.
    I went to Tuts house several years back and looked at the A5 Loar. I begged him to price it. He told me a fellow in California owned it and it wasn't for sale. Owning that would be a feather in your cap.

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## Paul Statman

> Just an observation, but it seems they sell quicker at $20 than they do at $165,000


Good catch, there, Jeff.

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Jeff Mando

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## Links

> [    I got a call from an older dealer about a month back, I had bought a Loar and a 26 Fern from him a few years back. He wanted to know if I need a another Loar, I told him I had 5 and wasn't in the market. He ask me what I thought he should give for it, so he could make some money on it. I told him if I was buying I wouldn't want to have over about 90k in it. He in turn ask would I give that for it, to which I told him no. The price has come down considerable, the millennials could care less about one. All antiques are declining in price because of this.
>     I went to Tuts house several years back and looked at the A5 Loar. I begged him to price it. He told me a fellow in California owned it and it wasn't for sale. Owning that would be a feather in your cap.


"All antiques are declining in price because of this."

No exactly the case.  Certainly many stringed instruments have gone down considerably, including Loars, but many antiques have remained strong and have increased in value.  Southern furniture, like I collect, isn't one of those though. UGH!

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## f5loar

Agree.  Many collectibles are going up, up, up.  One area I have noticed is old Universal monster movie poster from the 30's.  I've seen some priced more than this Loar and it's just an old piece of paper.   I get a few collector magazines sent to "high rollers", (not me) and I am shocked at some of the prices on antiques and collectibles from the 40's,50's and 60's.

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Paul Statman

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## Timbofood

Whatever I collect begins to decline the minute I decide I think I want to share the bounty!  The thing we used to say in the jewelry business when someone would come in and ask”Is gold up or down?” The answer is always “Yep!” Fluid markets are always going to be just that!

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## Links

> Whatever I collect begins to decline the minute I decide I think I want to share the bounty!  The thing we used to say in the jewelry business when someone would come in and ask”Is gold up or down?” The answer is always “Yep!” Fluid markets are always going to be just that!


Sounds like we go after the same kind of stuff.  Only my friends buy stuff that increase in price.  I love jewelry (or at least my wife does) and the only advice I give people paying retail for jewelry is buy it because you like it, not because you think you will ever get your money back out of it!  Most jewelry (if you are lucky) is about worth half of what you paid for it as soon as you leave the store.

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## tjmangum

I'm an auctioneer and have an auction gallery, but also love fretted instruments.  It makes me sad to see flippers who are only into it for the "quick" return regardless of what they may find.
Certainly have never come across a Loar, but if I did, I would tell the seller what they had and offer to sell for them at a fair commission.  What do they say about the stock market? Bulls make money, Bears make money and Hogs get slaughtered.

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## testore

I have an update on this attic find Loar. Everybody was shocked to learn that this instrument was purchased at a flea market two years ago for $25. That story is true, sadly. This morning I received a phone call from the son of the probable former owner of that instrument. This probable owner purchased the instrument in San Jose in the 1950s, from the original owner. He went on to play with Jerry Garcia long before the Grateful Dead came about. He played in a band called The Hart Valley Drifters. I am just gathering information at the moment but it appears the owner had some troubles in his life that led to the loss of his storage unit. That may have happened as long ago as the 1980s, but that is not 100% known. Nobody knows how it ended up at the San Jose flea market two years ago but nonetheless it did. The son of the owner called me this morning with a few questions. He’s going to visit the mandolin Wednesday where it sits with its current owner. I hope in someway to help facilitate it getting back into the family of the gentleman who lost it in the storage unit. There doesn’t appear to be any Illegal activity, or illegal purchase that took place. It only appears that there have been several sad episodes that led to this mandolin leaving the family. I will try to give more updates as I receive them.

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Eric Platt, 

Paul Statman, 

William Smith

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## William Smith

Thanks for the info Gary, unfortunately I doubt he'll get it back! And at 165 in two+ years and no takers it'll stay there for a long while! What a bummer!

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## testore

The mans son knows he has no legal position in regard to ownership. He’s hoping to make a settlement that would be fair to the current owner too. Hard spot to be in. I feel for the family.

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William Smith

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## William Smith

I agree Gary and their price these days is out there! "why its still sitting over two years later!" Maybe 10-15 years ago when all were 250K or about?

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## testore

The mans son knows he has no legal position in regard to ownership. Hes hoping to make a settlement that would be fair to the current owner too. Hard spot to be in. I feel for the family.

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## William Smith

When I was on the hunt for a nice Loar I was seriously looking into this one, "but at 165 I thought tht was a bit too much!" but I'm thrilled with the one I was able to get, now I'm thinking if I can unload a bunch of my goods I'll be going after a very worn/played in one, some repairs don't bother me at all. Mine is very clean with Virzi so I'd like one without the Virzi-one ripped out may be fine? So if anyone knows of a beat one message me here or my private email and I have some mighty fine old Ferns "a monster 1926 and a 34 Fern that's surprisingly one of the better 30's F-5's-way better than the loads I've played!"and rare Gibson's from the 20's and 30's! I'll throw in a bunch of extra goods depending on what I find?
  Its a shame that the original owners family lost this Loar and for 25 bucks! I wonder if it was in a storage unit and they defaulted on their monthly rent?

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## RichieK

This story is heartbreaking to me.

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Old Growth, 

William Smith

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## Tom C

That's why I hate those storage units shows on TV. Somebody may have been sick and couldn't pay at the time, or passed away and family members didnt know about it, or just fell on hard times....but it sucks to see somebody make money at other peoples expense.

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## Jeff Mando

> That's why I hate those storage units shows on TV. Somebody may have been sick and couldn't pay at the time, or passed away and family members didnt know about it, or just fell on hard times....but it sucks to see somebody make money at other peoples expense.


Life probably got in the way or it wasn't important at the time, they might have been elderly or not playing anymore, etc.  Who knows?  As far as making money goes, NOBODY has made money unless you count the person who sold it for $25, and I don't call that making money.  It hasn't sold in two years at the other figure, so that is just POTENTIAL money and you can't pay bills with potential money...........well, I guess you could call JG Wentworth.........!

But, I know what you are saying about the vulture mentality -- it doesn't sit well with me, either.

On a brighter note, I work at a repair shop and people are always bringing their old guitars, etc., that they sold off or lost 35+ years ago and had a chance to buy back and boy are they happy campers!  Sure, it's gonna cost you more than you sold it for in 1982, but the point it is -- IT IS STILL AVAILABLE!

That's how I see this situation with the Fern Loar.  The AMAZING thing is that BECAUSE of the greed, the silver lining is that it is still available!  That is an opportunity for the original owner's son, IMHO.  Worse would be if it was in the hands of a new happy owner who doesn't want to sell........

And, sometimes it doesn't come down to just money.  Maybe the son can offer property, vehicles, instruments, or other items that could make the sale happen.  That happens all the time in the rare record world.  Rarely does somebody just plop down the cash.....

I hope he gets it back!  In a sense, I wish it was a $5K instrument rather than a signed Loar.  That would make it easier to get back, but then it wouldn't be as good of a story, would it?

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## testore

Im not sure that greed has anything to do with this story. What I heard from the son yesterday is that his father had a series of bad choices or unfortunate events happen. He hasnt seen his dad since he was 8. Im not sure how old the son is but Im guessing late 40s. He cant find his father, nor has he found a death certificate. Its a very sad story. One that I hope can end happily for everyone involved.
As for the current owner, he paid a very fair wholesale price for the mandolin. His asking price is fair, if you consider the prices of other Loars currently available. This one is a very fine mandolin. If greed is motivating this then every other Loar seller could be called greedy. I dont see it that way.

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Eric Platt, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

William Smith

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## Jeff Mando

Thanks for clarifying, I missed that part of the story.  OK, the guy who bought it for $25 sold it to the current owner, who is a vintage dealer.  So, the guy who bought it for $25 did make a profit.  Now the vintage dealer wants to make his profit.  Not greed, just doing business.

I agree, "greed" is a poor word choice, in this case.  I should have said "asking top retail" or something like that.  My point being the fact it was priced as such is why it is still available, as are others at various vintage dealers.  Being available means he may be able to get it back -- a good thing.

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## testore

Jeff, I hope you didn’t hear a harsh tone in my reply, none intended. I know the current owner a little and we have some mutual friends. I’d be very surprised if he wouldn’t be willing to find some wiggle room for this mandolin to find its way back home. There’s no crime in making profit, even in this sad situation. He’s been out his money for 2 years. That money in a good mutual fund would have done pretty well in that time. Hopefully there’s a way to get a deal done.

- - - Updated - - -

Jeff, I hope you didnt hear a harsh tone in my reply, none intended. I know the current owner a little and we have some mutual friends. Id be very surprised if he wouldnt be willing to find some wiggle room for this mandolin to find its way back home. Theres no crime in making profit, even in this sad situation. Hes been out his money for 2 years. That money in a good mutual fund would have done pretty well in that time. Hopefully theres a way to get a deal done.

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## Jeff Mando

No, I wasn't offended.  I think it is a fascinating story.  I've been a flea market guy for most of my adult life and while I've never found a Loar, it is quite common, actually, to find things for $5 that are worth $100 and sometimes things for $50 that are worth $3000, especially if you can think outside the box.  

Everybody likes a bargain.  The reason it is hard to find a bargain is because it involves someone being misinformed as to the value.  Today, with the internet, it is very easy to find an items value in a few minutes, if not seconds.  That assumes everyone is trying to get top dollar for their items.  Some people just price stuff cheap to get rid of it -- another strategy.  But, it is safe to say if an item has a high value eventually someone will price it for the going rate.  The guy who bought it for $25 was smart and went for the quick money by wholesaling it to a dealer, IMHO.

It goes without saying to get the top money, you have to be willing to wait for the right buyer.  Sometimes that takes years.

The "probable former owner" addition to the story is great and adds a moral dilemma.......great stuff!

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## Jeff Mando

Just for fun I googled "Hart Valley Drifters" and, lo and behold, there are a bunch of photos from 1962 online -- thanks to the Grateful Dead connection.  Jerry Garcia and Robert Hunter were in this band.  Supposedly they only did one gig and did one recording -- I'm no expert, this is from doing 5 minutes "research" online -- if anyone has more info, feel free to correct this.  Sure enough, there is someone playing an an F5 mandolin in some of the photos, but not all.  Could be the flea market Loar, hard to say from old blurry pictures.  Some of the names of the band members are unknown, at least in some of the photos I saw.  There is another 1963 photo of Jerry's wedding that shows Robert Hunter playing an F5 mandolin and the photo credits this group as "The Wildwood Boys." On Jerry's website there is another mandolin player credited with the Wildwood Boys as Ken Frankel.  I googled Ken Frankel and his website lists the Hart Valley Drifters members as Jerry Garcia, Robert Hunter, David Nelson, Ken Frankel, and Norm van Maastricht.

Again, this is a cool connection, IMHO.  There may have been other band members, who knows?  I don't know if a Dead-related pedigree would make the mandolin any easier to sell or not?  It seems many Loars offered for sale have similar celebrity pedigrees -- and they languish on the current market.

Keep in mind, this is just some quickie internet research I did that proves nothing.  There is no way to know if the F5 in the photos is even a Gibson, let alone a signed Loar -- due to the quality of the pictures.  And, as Testore stated previously, even if it was the flea market Loar it would not give the son of the probable former owner any legal claim.

Interesting stuff!

I should add that in the photos of the Hart Valley Drifters there seems to be quite a bit of instrument swapping going on.  Jerry is usually pictured with banjo, but sometimes guitar.  The mandolin player is also pictured playing fiddle, FWIW.....

Also, please excuse my ignorance if the Hart Valley Drifters have been previously discussed on the Cafe.

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BradKlein, 

Paul Statman

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## testore

I have spoken to two former members of the Hart Valley Drifters and Worth Handley did in fact own a Loar. It’s been confirmed to my satisfaction. I just got off the phone with his son 5 minutes ago. He might add some better details here in the future.

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## rstytnsp

Greetings, my name is Grant Handley. It was my father, Worth Handley who played in the Hart Valley Drifters briefly in 1962. The flea market find, the $25 Loar F5 Fern, was his. An early photo of the band shows him playing it. My sister and I, the only surviving family, went to visit it last Thursday in San Jose. We hadn't seen it in 50 years. My sister doesn't play, but I play guitar. I know a couple of mando chords so I played it a little, although I was a little intimidated by it's preciousness. It was still in perfect tune, probably because of the previous player to try it tuned it. It had a sweet sound, surprising lingering sustain, even when strummed lightly, perhaps the Verzi was contributing to this. I'm no judge. There were several small clues in the case, and the case itself, that brought back some feelings.
      My father was a big bluegrass fan and his hero was Bill Monroe. He used to play BM records and play along and sing too. My guess is he met Garcia when we lived on Perry lane, in Palo Alto. Digging through pre Dead lore, it appears there was a "Perry lane" period, that coincides with the dates. My mother, who died last July, remembered going to 3 gigs, two in SF and one in San Carlos or San Mateo, she said, "they were rough". My parents got divorced in 1966, and my father soon left.  He lived in the underworld of San Jose his whole life, determined to not be found. He lived in cars, had a room sometimes, bartered various skills to survive etc...Because of his "lifestyle choice" he couldn't keep the mandolin with him, so he had it in a storage locker. Somehow he either died or lost the storage locker, we still don't know, but he clearly lost possession of his prize piece. This explains the "time capsule" nature of it now, it hasn't been played since 1966. He told me as boy that his main mandolin
(the Fern) was special because it was signed by Loar. He explained that the ones overseen by him were "special" and that this became recognized by players later on, including is hero, Monroe. And for all you hunters out there, check this: He had 2 Loars, the other one was in pieces with the back off in a box. Perhaps it was getting Verzi removal surgery or who knows, but it was most likely also in the storage locker he lost. Sadly, if the nice one was sold for $25, the one in pieces in a box may have been thrown away! But... it may be out there somewhere in SJ. 
     As for my sister and I, we don't know what to do. We always missed our dad, wondered what ever happened to him, and finding his mandolin does mean to us that "something" happened. We also have to recognize that he seemingly had no interest in us, and made no effort to contact us for decades, in fact, never did. So we feel rather torn about it. We have so little of our family, the family itself is just my sister, her kids and me. We have no "heirlooms". It would be quite a stretch for us to buy it. To us, it seems like he didn't want us to have it, otherwise he would have given it to us. We still don't know what happened to him. 
      I hope whoever gets it, loves it and Plays it. As I sat with it, it was clearly happy to get out of the case and be itself.

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40bpm, 

bbcee, 

Bob Bass, 

Bob Clark, 

BradKlein, 

Brian Ebie, 

Dale Ludewig, 

dang, 

danmills, 

Dave Bradford, 

EdHanrahan, 

Eric Platt, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

FredK, 

Jess L., 

John Soper, 

kmmando, 

LadysSolo, 

mreidsma, 

Northwest Steve, 

Paul Statman, 

pops1, 

Scot Thayer, 

sgarrity, 

Timbofood, 

tjmangum, 

Willem, 

William Smith

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## Jeff Mando

Thanks for sharing your personal story, Grant.  Heartbreaking, for sure, but an amazing story on so many levels.  Best of luck to you and your sister.

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danmills, 

tjmangum

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## William Smith

Thanks for sharing that story! We all go through hardships "some more so" So another Loar busted in a box-there is a song in there folks!

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## rstytnsp

Worth with his mandolin and Jerry

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40bpm, 

Bob Bass, 

BradKlein, 

Brian Ebie, 

John Soper, 

Northwest Steve, 

Paul Statman, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

Scot Thayer, 

Timbofood

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## rstytnsp

Worth and Grant around 1973. This was a rare visit we had with him, I'm about 13 in this photo. The last time I saw him was 1983. I was only 2 when Worth played with the Drifters. I now recall the last era when he was still at home with us, he got my sister and I to sing with him when he played, like in a "round" type song, and others. "Salty Dog" was one of them.

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## Hendrik Ahrend

> Worth with his mandolin and Jerry


Grant IMHO the mandolin pictured is an early '30s (non-Loar) F5 rather than the attic find. Worth's other F5?

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## rstytnsp

Here's pics of our recent visit to Guitar Showcase in SJ. I live about 300 miles away, so I picked up my sister Margaret on the way. Gary Wineroth was very nice, and let us spend some time pondering this, and to play it a little. We felt like some kind of loop had been completed, yet this experience now raises new questions. We recognize this moment/window in time has a finite nature to it, and so IF we were to try to act on this,
we don't have forever to think about it. Part of me wants my dad's old mandolin to "come home". But, this is more a purely emotional response to the present circumstances. Once I get "rational" again, I feel rather frozen and perplexed if I'm honest with myself. The fact still remains, that our father basically ditched us, and made no effort or gesture to see this F5 go to us.

----------

Brian Ebie, 

Paul Statman, 

Rush Burkhardt

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## rstytnsp

Hendrik, all the picture really shows is that it's a Fern F5, and not a flower pot type. It's true that there are "unsigned Loar" Fern F5's from 1925, and a few more later as you suggest. So this photo doesn't "prove" much. It's all the other evidence surrounding this "discovery", and the relative rarity of Ferns in general that leads myself and others including Frank Ford at Gryphon to feel fairly convinced that this was Worth's. Frank knew Worth and years ago saw this piece with him. Up until 1967 or so, my father had a graphics business with his office on California st. in south Palo Alto, about 2 blocks from Gryphon. The mystery of the "other" one I don't have much to say about other than it "was" in a box partly disassembled in 1966.

Honestly, if this know-it-all crowd of experts can convince me that that the flea market F5 is NOT my lost father's, it would be a relief.
I wouldn't then have to worry about what to do or not, seriously.

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Hendrik Ahrend

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## testore

I’m not sure how anyone can say that the pic with Garcia is a 30’s mandolin. All we can see for sure is that it’s a fern.

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Brian Ebie

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## djweiss

I just spoke with my friend Brooks Otis who played banjo with the Hart Valley Drifters and remembers Worth Handley from those days.  He recalls that Worth was given the Gibson F5 from a neighbor for which he did yard work/etc for...everyone in the musical circle recognized it as a particularly nice and special instrument.

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## BradKlein

> Greetings, my name is Grant Handley...


Grant, Thanks for sharing your story, and in such a sensitive and articulate way. I won't try and tell you how to feel about it, and I suspect that you know full well that you're not alone - even in the endless variations of the parent/child story. Wishing you peace and all the best.

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## HoGo

The mandolin in the pics is clearly not the same as the "attic Fern". Look at the tuners the mandolin has tuners farther apart at the top of headstock and the holes appear to be drilled right through the inlays (or very very close). Gibson did that from time to time...

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## William Smith

> The mandolin in the pics is clearly not the same as the "attic Fern". Look at the tuners the mandolin has tuners farther apart at the top of headstock and the holes appear to be drilled right through the inlays (or very very close). Gibson did that from time to time...


I noticed that myself before Henry "Henrik" mentioned it! But didn't want to ruffle feathers. That one is more than likely a late 1929-early 30's F-5, you can see the post through the fern leaves as by then Gibson was using those bump end worm over gear tuners instead of the Loar style tuners. Still all GREAT mandolins!

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Hendrik Ahrend

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## rstytnsp

Now that I've looked into the difference in the inlay placement of 1924 Ferns and later 1929 Ferns, I have to agree that the photo seems to show the later placement.
The only other thing to consider is that this may have been a flash photo, and that can lead to "blurring" of lighter to darker types of contrasts, thus being a little less clear than ideal. So perhaps this is a false alarm, my apologies if so. Or maybe the photo is of his "other one" before it was disassembled? My memory of 53 years ago
must be compromised for understandable reasons, yet I distinctly remember Worth telling/bragging to me as a boy that he had "Loars". Frank Ford remembers this too.

The for sures are: Worth lived in the underworld of San Jose from 1967-ish until now or his death (he would be 87 if alive). He had his mandolins in a storage locker in San Jose. At numerous times he was on the verge of loosing the locker. He had more than one mandolin, 2 in 1966 I saw them both then. 

The question remains, what 2 mandolins? From another source I learned that he somehow picked up at least one more "old gibson" mandolin that was taken to Lundberg in Berkeley in 1993, 10 years after the last time I saw him, to be sold. He was offered $7-8K for it then, and was told it needed some binding repaired and a refret, he refused the offer and went back to SJ.

It's tough when one of the sudo clues in this process has been probability itself. What are the odds of there being 2 Ferns of any date coming out of SJ?
Especially when the usual destiny of storage locker auctions is the local flea market, so this part seems to "line up". The time capsule nature of the piece in SJ also lines up with it's being in storage for 50 years. At this point, even with "some" compelling tidbits, I don't feel certain now, and I'm not sure how I ever could feel certain short of some yet unfound photo or other absolute proof. The obvious deduction from this is that the one in the photo is still at large, and that the one at Guitar Showcase is "some other one" that still "could" have been one of his 2 primary mandolins. He may have held back his favorite one in situations that included risk, such as playing out with it. I would.

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Eric Platt, 

William Smith

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## William Smith

Every year or so a newly discovered Loar or post Loar Fern or even a late 30's-early 40's Gibson F-5 comes back to the light and for us geeks its very exciting! Prices seem down right now as compared to say 2008 when most all original Loars were about 250K "I know some people bought then and well took a bath as they can't get that now" Even this great San Jose Loar at 165 is stretching it quite a bit, it would sell if it was 100-120 and that's just my personal opinion on what I know they can go for privately "I actually was looking at this one before I found mine!"

So we know he had another late 20's early 30's Fern at some point besides the Fern Loar-interesting!

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Brian Ebie

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## Jeff Mando

A couple things caught my "ears" as the story unravels....

The busted Loar in a box lends a fantastic quality to the story, but keep in mind an average guy in 1962 could own a Loar, maybe even two.  There was no established "vintage guitar market" like we have today.  The first I ever heard of there being an appreciation for older instruments (vs new instruments) was by bluegrass players -- specifically that an old herringbone Martin sounded better than the then current ones made in the 60's.  Gruhn has noted a similar experience trading guitars while in graduate school in the early 60's, before opening his shop.  Monroe being the other well-known example of someone who recognized Loars were a cut above the current Gibson offerings.  Earl Scruggs, as well with the Granada flathead banjo.  As far as the probability of two Loars in one town, I agree.  In an age before the internet and mail order, instruments basically stayed in their "own" hometowns, for the most part.  The exception would be instruments bought by people who traveled as part of their job, such as Monroe.  There were musicians, like your father, who were aware of Loars and able to seek them out.  It was more about knowledge and sound than money.   It is difficult for us to imagine with today's prices, a more simple era.  

The other thing that came to mind was what about the old pictures showing Robert Hunter, Ken Frankel, and Scott Hambly all playing old F-style Gibson mandolins, Loars, we assume.  My question is was it the same mandolin being passed around?  Or, did they all own old Loars?  That is, players associated with pre-fame Garcia.

----------

Paul Statman

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## rstytnsp

Worth told me he bought his favorite F5 (I assume it was a Loar) from a lady in SJ for $75 in the early 1950's when he attended SJ State. That was cheap even then, but it's clearly Not the one he's playing in the photo w/Garcia. I believe the others who played mandolin had their own instruments, and they were not F5's. It's true that in the early 1960's there was no established "vintage market", and it was just a matter of classified adds in newspapers or other word of mouth transactions. My father was a talented scrounger who just had a way of coming up with stuff, so considering that, and the era, it's not unimaginable that he had rounded up at least 2 F5's, with at least one being a Loar. I want to apologize again for the false alarm here, it took just a couple days for me to get up to speed on this topic, and to see that one photo associating Worth with a Fern, is not the Fern at Guitar Showcase. I still feel it's quite possible that the SJ Fern was his though, it's just a weaker case now. Worth was also a kite builder among numerous things, and we used to go fly his creations on windy days when we were kids. He made his own custom reels and used a special string specifically for kite flying. In the case of the flea market Loar, we found packages of mandolin strings bound together with "that" kite string. That tiny clue and the appearance of the fading of the green case interior (which I "seem" to remember) is all I have of anything tangible. The rest is what he said or told me, and the fact that he did store his mandolins in a storage locker in SJ, basically unplayed since the mid 1960's. Add in his age, location and dubious life style and we get a high likelihood of his instruments being "lost" into the abyss, in SJ. I just heard from another dealer in the bay area that he had a post Loar Fern on consignment recently, and that it didn't sell and the consigner took it back. It had a smaller form fitting case, not the bigger rectangular one. Another possibility is that the Fern he had in the photo in 1962 is the one I saw disassembled in a box in 1966. At that same time he had a running F5, in a case with a green interior....At this point I feel rather perplexed, luckily I don't have any innate lust to own a Loar F5, the only exception would be if it was clear that one of Worth's was available to me. Proving this definitively is what I'd need to move forward, and I just don't have "enough", most likely, never will. It's all been interesting though (a little upsetting too) and I want to thank the experts for their help in sorting this out.

----------

BradKlein, 

Jeff Mando, 

Paul Statman, 

William Smith

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## Jeff Mando

I think all in all there is some great detective work and clues revealed.  Especially, the kite string.  Again, what are the odds?  But, is it proof?  That is the question, IMHO.

Working at a vintage guitar store in a large city and also going to pawn shops and flea markets on a regular basis -- I would see the same exact guitar being traded from store to store, owner to owner, flea market to flea market, over the years -- not really that odd, musicians are usually part of a fairly small community, regardless of the size of the town. Also, I went to at least one guitar show a month somewhere in the country and again, would see the same guitars float from dealer to dealer.  And, those were pre-internet days.  Today, of course, even more so, I would think.  People who are into instruments, remember instruments -- that is what we do.  But, usually the guys who ran the guitar shops knew who owned what in their community, especially if you are talking something as rare as a Loar.

Unfortunately, that doesn't get you any closer, but in the age of social media another clue could be right around the corner.  I'm not a facebook person, but my friend is and he is always in contact with people from high school 55 years ago that he hasn't spoke to in 55 years -- so anything is possible and someone might know something about your father's instruments from a source as unlikely as facebook, for example.

I just read a story on Reverb where John Lennon's Gibson J-160E, which was stolen from Abbey Road in the 60's was just found in California and auctioned off for something like $2.4 or 2.6 million dollars -- the point is not the money, but that these things can be traced by serial numbers, receipts, shipping orders, photos, and in the case of John Lennon's guitar -- the grain of the wood was used like a fingerprint to confirm the identity by a Beatle expert.  So, there is hope, IMHO.

I'm sure the good feelings garnered by people like Frank Ford who knew your father must at least give you some insight, if not hope, exactly.

Fascinating story.  Good luck.

----------


## f5loar

for sure the Garcia photo Fern is not a Loar Fern.  The inlay's position puts it in late 20's to early 30's.  I'd say it's likely that one is out there and who has it don't know this previous owner.  There's not that many with that type inlay position.

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Paul Statman

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## William Smith

> for sure the Garcia photo Fern is not a Loar Fern.  The inlay's position puts it in late 20's to early 30's.  I'd say it's likely that one is out there and who has it don't know this previous owner.  There's not that many with that type inlay position.


Right on, I remember this Fern and it was a 29 by the looks and #'s, I think its in the archives but no PIX yet? I'm hopefully remembering correctly but the leaves were drilled through the Fern outer leaves like my 34ish, and was also around out that way "California" two years or so as I was looking into it from the shop it was at, as it was on consignment we couldn't come to an arrangement and I decided to shy away. As far as I know its still out there so the dealer may be able to help the family members-I was told it went back to owner!

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## Jeff Mando

Not to change the subject, but I just realized how much Garcia looks like a young Col Sanders with the goatee and the bow tie!  :Cool:

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## barry

> for sure the Garcia photo Fern is not a Loar Fern.  The inlay's position puts it in late 20's to early 30's.  I'd say it's likely that one is out there and who has it don't know this previous owner.  There's not that many with that type inlay position.


In the early 2000s, there was a fern listed on EBay as a 29 that looked like that.  It was listed by a pawn shop with a Buy It Now price of 15,000.  One of this forums former members scooped it up.  Later, it was lost in shipment to get a refret.  Im pretty sure it was eventually recovered.
Does anyone else remember that one?

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## barry

> for sure the Garcia photo Fern is not a Loar Fern.  The inlay's position puts it in late 20's to early 30's.  I'd say it's likely that one is out there and who has it don't know this previous owner.  There's not that many with that type inlay position.


Cropped photo from above vs. photo from Mandolin Archive



I think is is possibly this one.

#87346

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FLATROCK HILL, 

Paul Statman

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## rstytnsp

This is the '29 Fern that was consigned in Oakland recently :  https://reverb.com/item/14365635-gib...-1929-sunburst

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Paul Statman

----------


## rstytnsp

BTW, this (my fathers's demise and/or his mandolin's fate) all started because I was looking for cool old precision bass to play again. It was just a couple weeks ago while searching on Reverb, that a side bar add popped up, that was the flea marker Loar in SJ. That's what started this. Years ago, I had a '59 blonde (ash) slab board gold guard p-bass, that I never should have sold. That would be a tall order now. So what's in your closet? Who's got a bass for me?  I got tested recently, and there are  small traces of Jerry sparkle dust in me that must have landed on Worth and then rubbed off on me, 57 years ago.... thanks in advance.

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## William Smith

> This is the '29 Fern that was consigned in Oakland recently :  https://reverb.com/item/14365635-gib...-1929-sunburst


This is the 1929 Fern I was talking about I looked into!

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