# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  Whoa Boy....can't wait until this gets discussed..

## Gary Hedrick

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1924...item53eb8ec3ab

Well there you have it....an undocumented "Loar"

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## Eddie Sheehy

I'm in...

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## Jeffff

But it now  :Cool:

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## mrmando

Not a lot of energy put into fooling the experts here. Wonder who built it? The serial number would fit the Feb. 18, 1924 batch, if it were real.

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## MikeEdgerton

Got to love the missing Florida.  :Cool: 

The Mandolin Cafe case sticker does ad some semblance of authenticity. It had to pass through the hands of somebody that's been here. I wonder if that is the original Loar case?

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## Scott Tichenor

> The Mandolin Cafe case sticker does ad some semblance of authenticity.


I wasn't exactly thrilled to see that.

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## MikeEdgerton

I figured you weren't too thrilled.

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## Jeffff

The sticker may actually help. A potential buyer might just log on and ask about that particular mandolin.

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## Jim Garber

Lots of strangeness here...

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## baptist mando55

Might sound a lot better than it looks.  Dempseys Hutto wasnt pretty but it did soud real good.Could be an early Ward , Shue or a lot of carolinas builders who knows. It may peel the paint off the wall and blow you hair back.Some of the prettiest mandolinsive seen didnt sound all that good :Mandosmiley:

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## Jeffff

That's not really the point. The point is, it is being represented as something it isn't.

Unless it really IS a...remodled? Loar.

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## MikeEdgerton

It's not.

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## Jeffff

I need a sarcasm icon.

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## baptist mando55

it says f5 style in the description I dont think the expect to fool anybody

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## Jeffff

It's uo to $2,025 Better hurry.

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## barney 59

It's real but Sam Bush got to it or a maybe just a Sam Bush devotee. I bet it gets pulled. Just for grins I would love to see this one play out though.

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## Mike Black

Besides way too much flame in the sides and back, are there any side bound Feb 18th's?  At least they are not trying to pass it off as an unsigned Loar.

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## MikeEdgerton

> it says f5 style in the description I dont think the expect to fool anybody


I wouldn't bank on that. The text from the auction is, and I quote:

"You Are Bidding On A Pre-Owned 1924 The Gibson Master Model Style F5 Mandolin Numbers 75337"

I don't see anything there that would even suggest that they weren't selling it as the real deal.

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## Eddie Sheehy

Dang, I thought I had it for $2,001... maybe next year....

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## f5loar

All this puppy needs is a Loar style fingerboard, tailpiece cover,waverly tuners and pickguard and a change of label to read a July 9, 1923 serial no. and add the signed and dated Lloyd Loar label and you are good to go with an authentic fake July 9th Loar with side binding.  So close yet so far away.  
When you are showing a serial no. and adding the date to the mandolin you are selling it as the real deal.  I don't see using the word "style" as a protection agains forgery.

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## f5loar

hey Gary, Ken and Darryl, This may be one of those rare unsigned Loar years "2nds" we heard so much about from that dealer in the midwest that claims to have seen dozens of them and has documentation and photos of all the '22,'23,24 unsigned Loars.

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## Byrdmando

Im pretty sure that MandolinCafe sticker is a fake too.   :Smile:

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## Eddie Sheehy

Check that Mandolincafe sticker for Scott's signature!

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## mrmando

> hey Gary, Ken and Darryl, This may be one of those rare unsigned Loar years "2nds" we heard so much about


More like a 3rd, or a 4th.

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## Ben Milne

Only twenty frets and a scroll like that I'm not surprised Lloyd didn't sign it.

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## Fretbear

D'oh..!!

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## Gary Hedrick

Oh Martin you stole my line.......this is at least a 5th....

What a bunch of hooie this is......Cafe Sticker.....showing the "serial number"....saying that it is a '24 etc etc....This jerk is indeed trying to pull one over on the public.

Now all that said....it may very well be worth a few thousand dollars as a good mandolin but really the pandering that is going on here is really over the top....

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## PJ Doland

Why would anyone bother putting a serial number and date on it, but then omit the Loar signature?

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## Gary Hedrick

Tom, surely this MUST be an unsigned Loar.......after all there have been a number of "new" Loars discovered in the past few years.....why not an  unsigned one?   This is such a "perfect"  example of the master's craft......everything just like Lloyd would have wanted.....

Now where is that spare hundred and fifty grand that I have saved back for a rainy day  .....I gotta have this one...

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## Chip Booth

Even for me that took about 3 seconds to confirm there is no chance of it being anything even vaguely Gibson made.

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## Gary Hedrick

Well I received my reply from notifying the seller that he wasn't selling a real Gibson...

"What would make you say this is not? I only ask so I can look into it a little more and verify what you are telling me. Gibson told me this was a 1924. Thanks for the help."

Sheesh where do I start?

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## MikeEdgerton

Send him a link to this thread. Hopefully he'll join.

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## George R. Lane

If he does look at this link no one has given any specifics as to why this is a fake. You folks  know it is a fake,(I don't know) so let's tell him why. And his reference to Gibson telling him it is a 1924 I bet was just from the serial number.

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## mrmando

> Why would anyone bother putting a serial number and date on it, but then omit the Loar signature?


Actually, there's no date in it. There's one VERY poorly done "Master Model" label (they didn't even bother using the right font) with a serial number on it. But the second label, which would have borne the date and signature, isn't there at all.

There are some good photos of Feb. 18 Loars in the Mandolin Archive, so you can acquaint the seller with what the real thing looks like. 

Meanwhile, has anyone reported this to eBay?

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## Gary Hedrick

Well I've reported it to Ebay and I've gotten a further reply from the seller. In my intial response to him I detailed a number of the thing that are amiss and explained the value of a real one.  I don't think the fellow has an idea of what he was trying to sell....maybe I'm just too trusting in folks but....
Here is the response...I even mentioned to him that he should check out the Cafe and noted to him that the sticker was on the case....
"Thanks again for all your information. I am getting this appraised today or tomorrow and will edit the auction once I have all the information. "

It should be interesting who "appraises" the instrument and what they have to say....

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## f5loar

In defense of Mr. Loar and the Gibson Co. circa 1920's they didn't use the best paper glue and some of their labels did fall out after a half decade or more. So a missing label is not always your first sign it's not real.  However under the signed label is a FON and I see none in this one.  There is so much wrong with this one it wouldn't mean a thing to this seller if we pointed out the details here.  High Tech Loar terms would be way over his head.  Had he done any minor research on the web before he listed it he would have found this mandolin to be worth way over $150,000 and as much as $250,000.  If he truly believed it to be worth that much he would have sought out a 2nd even a 3rd opinion before he listed it on ebay along with his ipods.  Unless of coarse this seller has been living in a cave then I apologize for his dumbness and ignorance in a matter of which he knows nothing about.

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## MikeEdgerton

> If he does look at this link no one has given any specifics as to why this is a fake. You folks  know it is a fake,(I don't know) so let's tell him why. And his reference to Gibson telling him it is a 1924 I bet was just from the serial number.


I just counted 12 references to things that point it out as a fake prior to this message, not counting Jim's pictures that would have to be intrepreted.

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## multidon

It is possible there was no intent to defraud. Lots of eBayers are just trying to buy low and sell high. The actual item they are selling is of no importance to them if they make a profit. They will sell books, ipods, jewelry, watches, digital cameras, gee-haw whimididdles, or mandolins. They just don't care. This attitude make it highly probable they will acquire something to sell that they know absolutely nothing about. He may have done a little research but in this case a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You guys are experts of course (I don't count myself in your company by any means) but most people aren't. Even as a mandolin player I admit i just don't know every detail of every Gibson model for the last 100 years. To me, this is sort of a specialized area of study.

 I compare it to the American Pickers. Those guys really know bicycles! They'll bargain with someone over some super rare bicycle, and they'll say "Well, you know those aren't the original handlebars". And I'll think to myself, I would have never known that in a million years. If that were me, I would have probably looked at the brand badge, said "Wow! This is rare" and just bought it without a second thought. That's because I'm not a person who has spent huge numbers of hours memorizing every tiny detail of every brand and model of bicycle ever made. So, most people, including I think many mandolinists like myself, just don't know enough and could be defrauded. That's why I would NEVER buy a vintage Gibson without its authenticity being confirmed by a disinterested 3rd party expert professional appraiser. Now, nobody has brought up the maker of this instrument yet. Was it HIS intention to defraud? Or is it just a "homage"? In the violin world usually a Strad copy has "copy of" on the label or the label itself is so different from anything Stradivari actually used that its "homage" status is self-evident. Is that the case with Gibson "tributes"? This label is nothing like it should be. Does that make its status self-evident? One big difference, Stradivari isn't around to sue anymore, but Gibson sure is!

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## Wolfboy

> Now, nobody has brought up the maker of this instrument yet. Was it HIS intention to defraud? Or is it just a "homage"? In the violin world usually a Strad copy has "copy of" on the label or the label itself is so different from anything Stradivari actually used that its "homage" status is self-evident. Is that the case with Gibson "tributes"?


I remember there being something of a trend back in the '70s for banjos and mandolins built by independent makers to sport the name "Gibson" on the headstock. I imagine the intention varied from maker to maker, with some intending mere homage and others a deliberate attempt at deception. In either case, though, I have to admit I never quite understood the point. I saw some that were fine instruments indeed, and I thought, if you could build something that good, why wouldn't you want your own name on it?

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## mrmando

> I thought, if you could build something that good, why wouldn't you want your own name on it?


Same reason that somebody's putting "Gibson" on cheap Chinese knockoffs and selling them to pawnshops. Brand recognition sells instruments. Even fake instruments.

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## PJ Doland

In all fairness, the seller has sold almost 24,000 items and they have reasonably good feedback history of 99.7% positive. 

I would be inclined to attribute this to ignorance instead of willful deception.

I was, however, more than a little amused to find this entry in their neutral feedback history:




> Just found out from a music teacher that it's a cornet, not a trumpet.

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## multidon

> Just found out from a music teacher that it's a cornet, not a trumpet.


At least they didn't call it a "coronet". That one gets me every time. I imagine someone wearing a brass instrument on their head!

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## John McCoy

> At least they didn't call it a "coronet". That one gets me every time. I imagine someone wearing a brass instrument on their head!


Couldn't that also be a 1956 Dodge automobile?

And, worse (better ??  :Crying:  ??) yet would be:




> Just found out from a music teacher that it's a French horn, not an English horn.



==  John  ==

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## f5loar

Seller has contacted Gruhns for a fair and balanced appraisal.  Can't wait to see George's comments on this one.  I bet he won't know who made it either from the photos.  It's a $50 clear easy profit for Gruhn and a $50 peace of mind for the seller.  I'm surprised the previous cafe owner has not come forth with details.

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## Perry Babasin

The Dollar Store Loar!

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## Bernie Daniel

> Seller has contacted Gruhns for a fair and balanced appraisal.  Can't wait to see George's comments on this one.  I bet he won't know who made it either from the photos.  It's a $50 clear easy profit for Gruhn and a $50 peace of mind for the seller.  I'm surprised the previous cafe owner has not come forth with details.


Maybe the previous Cafe owner is not anxious to discuss the details?  Just speculating that we do not know how the instrument was represented on the previous sale or sales?  Also, of course there could be more than one owner between the person who attached the Mandolin Cafe sticker and the current seller?  I guess with the sloppy binding it is clearly not even a Gibson mandolin -- but the fingerboard like that was put on the '50's F-12's and is sure looks perhaps that old?

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## mrmando

The tuners are certainly not that old, and I don't see any evidence that it ever had any other tuners. 

Was it ever possible to order an F5 with no pickguard? This one doesn't show any evidence of ever having one. 

The headstock inlay is clearly meant to emulate a Loar-period instrument, but it never would have gotten out the door at Gibson looking like that. If this were a Gibson from the '50s it would have a different headstock logo.

I don't think this one is more than 35 years old.

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## Paul Weber

Judging by the variety of items for sale by the seller it almost looks like it might be a pawn shop.

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## Bernie Daniel

> The tuners are certainly not that old, and I don't see any evidence that it ever had any other tuners. 
> 
> Was it ever possible to order an F5 with no pickguard? This one doesn't show any evidence of ever having one. 
> 
> The headstock inlay is clearly meant to emulate a Loar-period instrument, but it never would have gotten out the door at Gibson looking like that. If this were a Gibson from the '50s it would have a different headstock logo.
> 
> I don't think this one is more than 35 years old.


Yes I agree it is not a Gibson mandolin -- I just mentioned that the cut-off board was used by them -- still is today on F-9's and A-9's etc.  
The tuners are Schallers aren't they?  Agreed on the headstock script and also that flowerpot -- MOP flower and abalone pot was never used by Gibson either was it?  They used abalone for the water in the pot on some models?  

In fact doesn't the overall shape (length to wide ratio) of the headstock look a bit off?  Could be a photographic illusion I suppose.  The bridge is Chinese made...the scroll is sloppy.  But the tailpiece cover is a genuine vintage Gibson piece?

All said however its a cool looking mandolin and I would not mind having it.

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## SternART

If the seller knew what it's potential value was, it probably wouldn't have been set up as a no reserve auction.

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## MnRoss

Looking at the sellers other auctions makes me think it's a pawn shop or something like that. Looks like nice wood on the mando and for what it's worth even if it's not a 24 Gibson or a Gibson at all it's fairly nice work and might sound great. Be fun to try 1st..

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## f5loar

yes it would be nice to pick on it before buying it.  Usually not possible on ebay auctions.  I don't see anything Gibson about it except maybe the TP.  Possible the fingerboard is an F12 of some year in 50's or 60's.  And why that type fingerboard?  Getting an F5 fingerboard should not be that hard.  The truss rod cover is not at the right place for a Loar, is one big red flag.  The builder obviously was pretty good and got many of the details right and yet was so far off on many other details that would not have been that hard to get right.  Is it a $2000 copy or a $5000 copy?  Really hard to tell on this one. So many times backyard builders will get the neck angle wrong making it hard to play.  He didn't drill the tuner holes right so I suspect many details are not spot on Loar spec.  Could this be a late 60's attempt by such well known luthiers as Wood,Kirk,Warner, Pag, Mont, Ward,Shue,Thompson?

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## Bernie Daniel

Going on what f5loar just said maybe it was purposely built that way in the 1960's on request by someone who wanted a vintage looking (Monroe like?) mandolin but who also thought that the cut-off fingerboards on the F-12's of the day made a lot of sense in terms easier picking?

It looks to me like it has a normal 1 1/16" nut -- if that fingerboard was an F-12 board with the wider nut I'd be strong tempted to bid aggressively on it.

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## Dobe

[QUOTE=Bernie Daniel;1023125] headstock script and also that flowerpot -- MOP flower and abalone pot was never used by Gibson either was it?  They used abalone for the water in the pot on some models?  
In fact doesn't the overall shape (length to wide ratio) of the headstock look a bit off?  

A bit stretched out looking from nut to first flare of headstock.  Also, no dot for the i connected to the bottom of the capital T in The (or was that teens ?)

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## baptist mando55

> yes it would be nice to pick on it before buying it.  Usually not possible on ebay auctions.  I don't see anything Gibson about it except maybe the TP.  Possible the fingerboard is an F12 of some year in 50's or 60's.  And why that type fingerboard?  Getting an F5 fingerboard should not be that hard.  The truss rod cover is not at the right place for a Loar, is one big red flag.  The builder obviously was pretty good and got many of the details right and yet was so far off on many other details that would not have been that hard to get right.  Is it a $2000 copy or a $5000 copy?  Really hard to tell on this one. So many times backyard builders will get the neck angle wrong making it hard to play.  He didn't drill the tuner holes right so I suspect many details are not spot on Loar spec.  Could this be a late 60's attempt by such well known luthiers as Wood,Kirk,Warner, Pag, Mont, Ward,Shue,Thompson?


If it came from any of the builders f5loar it could be a real  hoss of a deal at 2000 dollars all pretty good builders :Mandosmiley:

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## MnRoss

And poof it's gone. Maybe he got the appraisal from Gruhns. CVSALES1 (the seller) appears to be a pawn shop in Austin Tx. http://www.cashpawnsales.com/index.html is their website and his Ebay store is called CVSALES1.

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## Links

> And poof it's gone. Maybe he got the appraisal from Gruhns. CVSALES1 (the seller) appears to be a pawn shop in Austin Tx. http://www.cashpawnsales.com/index.html is their website and his Ebay store is called CVSALES1.


I think we could probably eliminate a couple of the builders mentioned as their work was never even close to as good as this (not to mention any names).  I wonder if anyone (maybe even Gruhn's guys) mentioned using a mirror to see if anyone signed the mandolin top.  I know Hutto did that and probably some of the others too.  As someone mentioned earlier, this might be a heck of a mandolin for $2000!

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## Eddie Sheehy

Maybe a Sargeant?  Weren't the earlier ones The Gibson logos?

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## f5loar

I was listing builders that I know started out using "the Gibson" logos in their early creations.  Pretty common back in the late 60's and early 70's.  I meant to add Sargeant to the list but drew a blank since he is not an east coast builder I am familier with.  But I've never seen any of those guys use the wrong pearl inlay for the headstock and most of them got the truss rod postion better than this one.  Not sure why they tied the reverse "Monroe" style binding with a Feb. 24 serial no.  The penciled in "F5" and serial no. is in the style Loar/Gibson used so this mandolin was made to decieve it is a real Gibson.  The only homage they were paying was to themselves for more money for using the gibson name and fake label.  Many of the builder I mentioned did not go the extra mile and put in fake serial no. labels.  Some even used their own labels and others didn't put any labels in it and may have signed the top as mentioned.

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## mrmando

Well, it is back on eBay now, minus the photos of the label and headstock logo.

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## fretbored

I won the second auction of this mandolin on Ebay... got it for what I thought might be a fair price... waited with anticipation for the arrival...

And then the mando arrived...

Wow.  This is a good one.

I had played some very good F5 copies/tributes/fakes/counterfeits over the years and know that some very good builders have done some good ones... I took a chance here and am VERY happy with it so far.  I wanted a good player that I could get hold of within my budget... this is definitely that at a bare minimum.

So far I cannot find any signature on the underside of the top, but need to get in there with a better light and mirror.

Some of the binding finish work is a little rough/sloppy, but most of it is similar/better than i've seen on some pretty good mandos (Huttos, Bryant, etc.).  

The flame on the back and sides is absolutely gorgeous... nice sunburst in person.  The finish seems to be pretty well applied and not too thick.  There is enough play wear on it (pick area, arm above tailpiece, and top edge on back) to make me think this was picked a bunch by someone... for a good many years.

There was a pickguard on it at one point, but gone now.

The fingerboard looks to be from an F12 for sure... I am not sure what other parts might be.  The binding is all definitely not F12 binding.  It is sidebound.  There is the ghost of an older flowerpot inlay that can be seen under the finish in just the right lighting angle... it was maybe a 1/2 inch lower than the current base of the flowerpot.  Strange...

Tuners are good quality and pretty steady, but not sure the exact type/model.  Can anyone tell what they are?  Tailpiece is an old Gibson I think.

The mando plays great all over the neck with pretty dead on intonation.  I haven't found any dead or funky spots across the strings or even way up the neck.  It was built VERY well and plays better than some pretty good mandos that i've played.

I have only played it around the house so far... going to a jam tomorrow and can't wait.  I don't play a whole lot the past few years, but finally found a good pick lying around last night to really dig in with.  It sounds phenomenal.  The tone is very woody in the right way... not sloppy/thuddy/bassy.  Woody with clarity of voice and some sweet overtones.  I've only played 3 Loar F5s personally, but... this thing sounds like what I remember from the better one!

Now... I gotta find out who built this thing and am looking for any and all clues.  The way it plays and sounds... I am getting a hunch it was built by a very good luthier in his early days before making a name for himself.  A whole bunch of them did it that way from what I gather...

Pictures of some of the details to come!

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## fretbored

Played it some more this evening... even more impressed (other than my chops bein out of practice).  Very focused in the midrange with tight bass and sweet highs alongside.  From mandos I've run into and a bunch of 'tone studying' online with clips and vids,  I have to say it sounds most like a Givens or Gilchrist.

Anyone have any pics of early Givens F5s or conversions?   

Looking at a lot of top shapes I'm seeing a different shape to the top carving... less of a recurve than and more of a slope than many builders.  Several Givens pictures I've seen have a very similar look to the top plate.

Gonna be a fun mystery to solve...
L

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## pefjr

And I thought all the crooks were in the Violin business! This is iron E with a capital. The Crook , in his efforts to capitalize on a "Name" outshines himself and make his instrument so good, or equal, and in some cases exceeds his model, then dies before his talents can be recognized. I have an Italian copy Violin, made in early 1900s' that fits that description. I also have a Dauphin Classical guitar made in Japan in the 70's. My two instruments can not be replaced, they were made to duplicate quality and the maker succeeded, and then nature took over with the proper aging of the woods and voi-la'........

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## jim simpson

I have to add my voice in praise of this mandolin. I got to play it earlier this evening as fretbored brought it to the jam. It is everything he says it is in terms of playability and tone. It has volume to spare. I wish the Chris Warner Gibson copy I used to own had the sound of this one, I would have kept it. This was a great purchase and a keeper, very lucky buyer.

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## Justus True Waldron

any chance for a sound clip? Interesting saga

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## fretbored

I will try at some point to get a sound clip up, and definitely more pictures.

I have to think that at some point, someone on Mandolincafe has had their pick laid to these strings!  The Bobelock case was cleaned of stickers when they shipped it to me, but at one point had the Mandolincafe bumper sticker on it.

Another possible clue is below... on a thread called "Post a picture opost a picture of your fake gibson", mandodan posts a picture of what I believe strongly to be the same mandolin and says "here is one I recently sold".  I talked to him and he thought it might have been a Vern Bryant, but honestly didn't remember because he also had several from unknown builders.  (I get the feeling alot of good mandos pass through his hands...).

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ur-fake-gibson

Jim - it was great jamming with you last night!  I had a blast and that Collings is a good mandolin.  It was great to hear you picking my new mando and finally hearing the sound coming back at me.  

I wasn't so sure about the volume of the mando in the jam at first, but I tend to play a bit quieter than I should.  Once I dug in, it really responded and came alive over the two hours.  Gotta get back in practice!

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## fretbored

[IMG][/IMG]




Someone has played this thing up high on the board...






Tried to get some different angles to show a shape of the top... not a whole bunch of recurve







Old Gibson tailpiece?  (Not Loar era I know... but wondering from what period?)



The points are all done with binding across them



Alot of nice flame in the sides

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## fretbored

The neck shape is wonderful to play... very lightly finished






Only a label for the model and serial number... no signature label.  Can't find anything underneath the top with a mirror yet

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## fretbored

Notice the 'ghost' of a flowerpot inlay a little further down... fingerboard looks like an F12, but did any have flowerpots on them?



Old holes from a pickguard



Nice maple... pics don't even do it justice at all



Elevated fingerboard

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## fretbored

Played...

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## fretbored

Sorry about the order of the images... i'll try to add some commentary about the idiosyncracies with some of them!

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## fretbored

I was lucky enough to spend some time with f5loar a few Fridays ago and sample some of his mandolins... what a great evening!  I am happy to say I was pleasantly surprised to see and hear how well my mystery mando compared with some of his beautiful old instruments.   Some of the details were way closer than I would have imagined, and some were off in surprising ways.

I am hoping he'll chime in with some commentary that might help boost the mystery along...!

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## fretbored

Here are a few pics from my visit with f5loar...



f5loar with my mystery mandolin... playing some Monroe licks I believe



My mandolin on the couch with some good company... from left to right:  4/25/1923 Loar F5, 7/9/23 Loar F5, mine, 3/31/24 Loar Fern w/Virzi, non-loar Fern (forget the date on this one)



The above mandolins plus a Kentucky KM-1500 on the right... it wasn't bad!

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## Darryl Wolfe

To my eye, this mandolin is not as old as much of the discussion about it is indicating.  There are certain nuances that point to inlay and binding materials that have only been available  for 10 years or so at the max.  The The Gibson and the Flowerpot are CNC cut by a noted company for a noted company

The execution of this points to someone intimately familiar with Loars and who had one sitting beside him as they built the mandolin.  It is possible, but I highly doubt that it started as an F-12 or such.  It is also possible that it is a re-do of a little bit older "do" to bring it closer to a Loar

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## fretbored

Darryl,

Thank you for the comments!  I was hoping to eventually catch your eye on this one...

The comment about the inlay materials being stock CNC from a noted company are a new twist and i'm glad to learn that clue... same with the binding material. 

Seeing the mandolin side by side within inches of a real deal July 9 Loar really opened my eyes on how close the execution was... the main things that were just really off are astounding, because they would probably have been easier to get right than some of the minute details that were executed very well. 

After getting to compare the mandolin, I was very pleased to come to the same conclusion... that the builder had been around some Loar F5s and might have even been working from one.  To hear you say the execution points to someone 'intimately familiar' sounds even better!  Tom felt as well that it may be a 're-do'... that is almost definitely the case because the shadow of a flowerpot further down can be faintly seen when looking at the headstock at just the right angle.

I still haven't looked under that huge MM label for a signature, but a luthier friend with a steam needle is going to help me remove it hopefully within the week.  It's obnoxiously large... the handwriting of the model and serial number are well imitated, but the fake serial number was from the 2/18/24 batch (probably) and most appointments of this mandolin jibe with a 7/9/23 Loar from everything i've seen.

In Tom's eyes (and easily seen when comparing to the wonderful pics you have posted in the Loar of the Day posts), the main things that were off are:

-The flare on the bottom portion of the headstock is too long as it curves and widens
-Truss rod cover position way too low
-Tailpiece cover
-Inlay width/materials
-Bridge
-Carvings at 15th fret too small (treble side way too small)
-fingerboard chopped and 12 fret dots too narrow
-tuners
-master model label way too big and 'flipped'
-no signature label
-heel 'point' carving

Oh yeah... and I learned about that incredible SMELL the old ones have...

Thanks guys for the attention!

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## f5loar

The F holes are the right size for a Loar so that along with back neck heel shape would rule out it being started from an F12 or any import F model of any year. No F12 would have this type of maple flame either.  This is high quality fiddle flame maple. 
No doubt the builder(s) had actual Loars or recent MMs to go by.  I could narrow it down to mid 80's but Darryl noting that it can't be that old may still lend it to being first built in 80's by one first timer guy and then finished in late 90's by another guy who knew his stuff in which case the "The Gibson" was added at that time along with the new repositioned flowerpot and new binding.  Why a really good builder could bomb on so many details is the mystery. But they got the cremona sunburst pretty darn close. Note how this fake blends in amoung the real ones.  Whomever finished it knew what they were doing.  I'm guessing the 2nd refurbish builder didn't bother to correct those details as it would have involved much more time and money to do so.  I'm guessing the owner who paid to get the "re-do" also wanted a short fingerboard (again not an original F12 short board) to suit his picking style.  F5 style Mando builders in the late 90's to present would not likely come forth and say they used the good Gibson logo, label and name in vain even under oath in a court of law so I 'm not looking for the buidler to step up to the plate here on a public forum.  I'm still shocked a previous owner has not come forth with more info.

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## Texas

I am not an expert, but the question comes to mind: Why? Why would someone obviously take so much time and pain to recreate a fake; to the point that it actually turns out to be something worth having?

I buy and sell Rolex and Omega watches and I see fakes frequently, but they are relatively easy to make with cnc machines and an Asian movement, so I can understand the attraction of fake watches, but someone spent a bunch of time on this Mandolin probably knowing that it would eventually be shown to be fake.

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## f5loar

Because a fake Gibson would be worth more $$$ than a real import/handmade XXX is my guess.  Same as the watch.  You are buying the name not the watch.

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## stevejay

This story is interesting, and has a great outcome. What a conversation piece, and a bit of a mystery as well. If only the mandolin could tell us the story. In any event it has a great voice, even if it is an imposter.

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## Texas

> This story is interesting, and has a great outcome. What a conversation piece, and a bit of a mystery as well. If only the mandolin could tell us the story. In any event it has a great voice, even if it is an imposter.


Steve, and that is why it's an even bigger mystery than usual. I wonder if the original builder built it for his/her personal use and never intended it for the open market?

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## Darryl Wolfe

I think I know the answer to this mystery...and it could get messy....stay tuned

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## Earthwood

> I think I know the answer to this mystery...and it could get messy....stay tuned


Still tuned in here!  Whatcha got?!?

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## Darryl Wolfe

I need to check some old pictures first.  That will be this evening

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## fretbored

Darryl... how can you tease me like this!  Hehe... I am so hoping you are able to post this evening.

I am also waiting on a Blue Chip pick in the mail... and that didn't come today.

Oh yeah... and our Hyundai Tucson may have been totaled this afternoon... so I hope you have something neat!

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## fretbored

Ye gods... messy... messy he says... what could it all MEAN man?

(Hunter S. Thompson phrasing and cadence implied)

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## f5loar

He means someone may have gotten suied by Gibson for that fake.  I seem to recall one a long time ago using a fake serial number.  As you probably know by now from that Fake Gibson thread that the USA is full of Gibson Fake Loars/F5s.  More fakes then real ones.  Some easy to tell and a few not so easy.

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## Jim Garber

Come back, Darryl -- don't leave us hanging. All is forgiven!

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## f5loar

Me thinks Sir Wolfe's photo file system is not so organised and he is likely have trouble finding that needle in the haystack.

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## Darryl Wolfe

OK...sorry for the delay.  I fully believe this is a Wayne Henderson mandolin.  NOW, when that thought dawned on me, my memory went straight to Gary Browns Wayne Henderson mandolin that was stolen along with all the rest of Boot Hills instruments long ago.  I found my pictures of said mandolin and this one is NOT it.  It is very close but not the same mandolin.

Sorry for the drama, but I was very very sure this was the missing mandolin, because I do have an elephant memory on details.

I'll post some photo's of the other mandolin and you will see the similarities

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## Darryl Wolfe

> Me thinks Sir Wolfe's photo file system is not so organised and he is likely have trouble finding that needle in the haystack.


That's because you have seen it  :-)

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## fretbored

Oh that's nice to hear... especially happy to hear that the stolen angle didn't pan out.  Cause I love this mando...

Off work today trying to find out what's gonna happen with the wrecked vehicle.  Grrr...

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## Jim Garber

That would be quite cool if it were one of Wayne's.

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## jim simpson

Chad and I discussed the possibility of Gerald Anderson as a possibility. Gerald of course worked with Wayne, there were similarities in the finish work. Chad asked me if I saw any as I formerly owned an Anderson. Who knows?

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## Mandolin Mick

I love these Loar threads with a CSI slant to them!  :Smile:

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## fretbored

Most definitely... have had some great conversations with some great people already just trying to solve this one.

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## Dan Co1e

Any chance it is the unfinished Cliff Sargeant that was around years ago?

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here is the Henderson I mentioned

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## fretbored

Darryl... thanks for posting this!  Taking a look at some of the shapes and lines now...

I would love for you to be able to hear this thing... I will be looking for a chance to run into you.

It had pretty ratty strings on it at Tom's... I had only changed a broken E string on it from when I got it back in Feb/March.  Not sure how old they were from the previous owner.  It sounds pretty incredible now with the new wires.

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## fretbored

The mystery is solved.

It came from Texas, but was built within a 3 hour range of Wheeling, WV...

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## Jim Garber

> The mystery is solved.
> 
> It came from Texas, but was built within a 3 hour range of Wheeling, WV...


More details? How do you know that?

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## fretbored

I will post em very soon!   I finally removed the big, badly done fake MM label and found the builder's original label underneath.  I think his original inlay was reworked to The Gibson later on, but wanna try to make contact with him first.

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## Jim Garber

I love when you can actually get to the bottom of things like this. Excellent. Looking fwd to the updates.

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## fretbored

He is a top notch guitar builder and has done at least 19 or 20 mandolins.  I say that because mine is marked at #19!

More to follow in the near future.

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## Paul Kotapish

> I am not an expert, but the question comes to mind: Why? Why would someone obviously take so much time and pain to recreate a fake; to the point that it actually turns out to be something worth having?


There is a long and venerable tradition of making replicas of famous violins--down to mimicking the very specific coloring and details of distressing on well-known Cremona instruments. Some of these were undoubtedly intended to be passed off as genuine, but for many, the art of the re-creation was the point more than any great scam.

The tradition continues, with world-class luthiers making reproductions (aka "fakes") and world-class violinists purchasing them, although these days many luthiers include their own labels--sometimes in the obvious f-hole spot, other times in an area that can only be seen with a mirror by another luthier.

Back in the dark ages when Gibson mandolins were at their nadir and before the rise of so many great mandolin makers with international name recognition, a lot of fine luthiers made copies of the classic Loars and Ferns--with no particular intention to pass them off as genuine, but because a lot of good players were demanding classic-era-style F-5s that Gibson wasn't producing. 

A lot of makers who went on to develop their own line with their own labels and logos on the peghead started off building accurate Loar and fern copies--down to the logo inlay and label. 

The practice is somewhat akin to a player trying to learn all of Monroe's solos note perfect before going to craft a more personal musical style.

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## fretbored

Very well stated!

Almost all of the top guys did it with the Loar F5s (most of them pretty early on in the 70s)... Randy Wood, Bob Givens, John Monteleone, Nugget (Mike Kemnitzer), Wayne Henderson... and that's the cream of the crop (not to mention what i'd call some second tier names like Hutto, Sargeant, etc...  Almost a rite of passage as they moved into their own techniques and styles.

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## Darryl Wolfe

I am glad this is solved.  I am not very familiar with his work

dw

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## Jim Garber

Are we still waiting for the big drum roll and the name of this maker? Seems like Darryl knows. How about share it with the rest of us.

Maybe give us a hint or two and we can guess?

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## fretbored

It was built by Todd Sams in southern Ohio.

He lives a couple of doors down from Don MacRostie (Red Diamond mandolins), and they have worked together at Stewart Macdonald for many years.  He's not far from legendary luthier Bob White either (several miles by the crow).

I got to talk with Todd for a short while about the instrument and he DID NOT do the Gibson inlay or the fake label that was overtop his original label.  Still some history to the mandolin that I may never know, but i'm very happy with the builder.


Sorry for the additional suspense, Jim... I wanted to have a word with Todd on the instrument first regarding the Gibson inlay and label before I threw his name out there!

He mainly builds guitars and hasn't built an F style in years (too busy with the guitars).  He has built guitars for Wyatt Rice and a number of others.  Todd's a great multi-instrument performer and is playing again with the Rarely Herd.

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## Jim Garber

That is great news and you made an excellent purchase, it sounds.

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## fretbored

I had a very neat evening centered around this mandolin this past Friday night... the Rarely Herd was playing at the Pennyroyal Opera House in Fairview, OH (a great small bluegrass venue with a history of great bands that have played there).  The luthier Todd Sams is once again playing banjo (and a little guitar) for the Rarely Herd...

I got to reunite this mando with the guy who built it back in 2001 and he (and I) got a real kick out of it.  The pieces that had been 'reworked' since his construction were the label that covered his label, and the headstock inlays in total.  He thinks he did this one with just a gold decal.  So.... both the 'older' flowerpot that shows under the finish and the current flowerpot and 'The Gibson' inlay were done by someone later on.

I learned that the top is definitely Adirondack Spruce... he thinks he remembers getting that piece from Don MacRostie.  He remembers finishing this one with a can of spray varnish that he found.  He became a fan of side bound F5s as soon as he used that technique rather than top bindings!  Todd said that he thinks he built around 20 F5s in total, but no longer builds Fs.  With the time involved, he can turn out 3-4 guitars in the same time frame.  He thinks he probably sold it for around $3500 originally, but would want $5500 plus at this point... IF he were to build any Fs.  He does still build the occasional A.

Todd put it this way... when you live two doors down from Don MacRostie building Red Diamond mandolins, it's smart to specialize in guitars instead of mandos!

Now here's where the story takes another neat turn...

The current mando player for the Rarely Herd is a guy named Brandon Shuping... who happens to be a son-in-law of f5loar.  Todd handed the mandolin over to Brandon to pick on some while they warmed up in a small dressing room.  It sounded decent right out of the case... about 3 tunes in, it began to warm up...

Brandon's eyes and smile got a little bigger the more he played it... and I found that I couldn't keep a smile off my face as the red spruce woke up in the hands of a good player (I just don't have the same level of mojo...).  To put it shortly... he liked it well enough that his Tucker stayed in the case thru the warm up before the show.  At that point I offered that he could play it on stage for the gig and I was very happy that he wanted to.

I haven't had this mando miked yet because I haven't gigged anywhere in about 5 years... heck... it's rare enough to get to a jam these days.  When they started up on stage and he put it into the mic with his first break, I couldn't quit smiling and actually chuckled out loud.  It sounded incredible through the mic and sound system.  Brandon ended up playing it (other than one fast and furious tune on the Tucker) for the whole show... I was loving it!  He's a tremendous picker and a top notch guy... had a great time talking with him thru the evening and was glad to know he's a fellow West Virginian now.  

I got some video and pics of Todd and Brandon with the mando and will get some posted in the near future.  

I'm not sure if Brandon reads/posts here at all, but if he does, i'll let him post what he thought of it in his own words... I was just happy to hear it get picked at a level that showcased its potential.

I picked the Tucker a little bit backstage... very nice mando and MAN what a scroll those things have carved on them...

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## belbein

Scott:  Is the "Mandolin Cafe" sticker registered as a trademark and/or copyrighted?  If it is, then you should let E-bay know that this is a trademark/copyright infringement and they'll pull it toot sweet.  

If it's NOT ... tsk tsk tsk.  Let me know and I can maybe guide you through the process.  This site is a valuable "property," as the Entertainment guys say.  You shouldn't let it get nibbled at.

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## AlanN

Cool story about that mandolin and the builder Sams. Thought that name sounded familiar and sure enough, I have a recording in the stack of something called Skeletones, In The Dark. Todd Sams was on it (on mando?, or was it John Staats), along with Wyatt Rice and some other cats. Good picking.

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## fretbored

I still have 11 years worth of story on this mandolin to uncover... gonna keep at it!  Hehe...

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## almeriastrings

Fascinating. Great story and obviously a very serious quality instrument... you did very well on that deal.

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## Bernie Daniel

Great sting and interesting story.  Certainly was a great find and buy.  For some reason fretbored I was thinking you lived in Flushing, Ohio or somewhere near there in southeast Ohio.  Did you move?

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## fretbored

Very near where you are thinking Bernie... I live in Wheeling, WV.  My (outdated) profile may have said Martins Ferry, OH at one point.  You are the guy that mentioned Egypt Valley, right?

If so, the Pennyroyal is pretty much out in that neck of the woods right off of I-70.  It is a great place to hear bluegrass, and also has a wealth of great people and some good food!

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## belbein

> Scott:  Is the "Mandolin Cafe" sticker registered as a trademark and/or copyrighted?  If it is, then you should let E-bay know that this is a trademark/copyright infringement and they'll pull it toot sweet.  
> 
> If it's NOT ... tsk tsk tsk.  Let me know and I can maybe guide you through the process.  This site is a valuable "property," as the Entertainment guys say.  You shouldn't let it get nibbled at.


Sorry, wasn't clear.  I'm not looking for business--I've got too many instruments on my bench and too many cases on my desk.  I meant I could give you some tips on how to protect yourself.

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## Travis Wilson

Interesting story.  Have you given any thought to having Mr. Sams restore the head stock to its original specifications?

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## fretbored

Nah... I like it as is!  Makes for a better story in my book... although those are the chapters that are in the dark still...

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## Willie Poole

Fretbored....Looking back at some of the photos on "Fake Gibsons" thread:  your mandolin looks very much like the one that Danny Clark said he sold...Have you talked to Danny?  Maybe he could shed some light on who did the inlays etc.  Not that it really matters...I am glad to hear that it found a good home with someone that will cherish it....I too have a "Loar" copy but the labels inside tell who actually made it and it is not intended to decieve anyone although I let people think what they want to think unless they ask questions about it, I don`t play it out in public much any more....

   All of this was very interesting to me and I am amazed at how the Loar experts can spot such differences....

    Willie

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## Bernie Daniel

> Great sting and interesting story.  Certainly was a great find and buy.  For some reason fretbored I was thinking you lived in Flushing, Ohio or somewhere near there in southeast Ohio.  Did you move?


That's me!  :Smile:   HNY!

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## fretbored

Willie, talked with Danny several times about it... it was one of the ones where he didn't know who built it.

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