# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  mandolin seconds

## RickPick

Hi. I'm looking at a mandolin on EBay that the seller says is a "second" that has had a couple of parts replaced and is now on auction. Otherwise, the condition is described as "new." Can anyone share cautions/thoughts/green lights with me about purchasing "seconds" without being able to see them or hear them? The seller on EBay has an excellent record, but I'm concerned about the "second" issue.  Thanks for any responses from those more experienced with "seconds."

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## Mandolin Mick

Ask the seller for *exact* details on *why* the mandolin is a second. High resolution pictures of the defects or abnormalities are a plus. Make sure that you have a good return policy agreement in place. That's a good start.

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## RickPick

Thanks for your thoughts, Mick. I will ask about why the instrument is a second. Sadly, though, the ad states clearly that there is no returns. Is this a strong signal to stay away? Or to stay away unless I can get the instrument for a song? (pun intended, I guess...)

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## Mandolin Mick

I've bought many mandolins online and unplayed, but they were all with a return policy. Personally, I would *never* buy a mandolin unplayed without being able to return it if it doesn't match the description or my expectations.

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## mandobassman

Being a "second" isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I bought a mandolin online once that was a factory second.  The store said it was a couple of finish blemishes.  When I received it, I couldn't even find the blemishes they were so minor.  However, I would also be cautious of the no return policy.  I would never buy an instrument online without a return policy.  If you don't like it you're stuck with trying to re-sell it.

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## allenhopkins

There are some eBay sellers -- I'm thinking in particular of one who sells a lot of Dobro-style instruments -- who seem to have a relationship with certain manufacturers, and receive and sell a lot of their "seconds."  In many cases, the flaws are so minor that they don't matter as far as actual playing goes; I put more "blems" on my instruments the first week I own 'em!

I do concur that the "no return" policy is a major red flag, though.  If a seller is offering an instrument that he/she says *up front* has a defect, prohibiting an approval period is close to a deal-killer for me.  The only way I'd go ahead with that deal, is if I could have a prolonged pre-purchase interchange, e-mail or phone, that satisfied me that I was getting a sound, playable mandolin.  And I'd want the posted photos to show explicitly the reason for the "second" designation.  Even then I'd be a bit worried.

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## Markus

I think it also depends on who made it/manufacturer.

I would get in line for a second from a number of American makers [or small shop builders] ... but wouldn't be so eager about  import seconds or from an unknown maker.

Without a return, I would be sure to get quite a complete description, photos, and the rest. I'm a little skeptical of no-return policies from internet vendors.

--

Personally, I have bought a `second' ukulele for my daughter online - I am not against it completely. The vendor was what Allen describes, was good with replies and additional photos, was good to deal with [helped sell me on it] ... and it was only $100 [as ukes are comparatively cheap].

While the `second' part on the finish is really nothing, my luthier needed to fix a fret and work on a nut slot. I would be sure that these seconds have been set up properly [or can be].

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## EdHanrahan

Also depends on the actual price vs. the risk/pain of losing that amount.

I bought a Rover blem from a local shop for really small bucks figuring that, at very worst, it'd be a challenge to take apart and -maybe- get it back together, being worth the education even if I failed.

It's problem was that the bridge was twisted out of position and the top had sunk, looking pretty ugly.  But the braces were okay, and after three weeks of hefty humidification (in a plastic bag!) with the bridge off, it swelled back into "somewhat reasonable" position.

Now it just lies around by the TV, helping to help drown out the commercials!

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## Rroyd

Instruments described as "seconds"  can vary greatly in what is wrong, but at one time there was a "standardized" description where seconds were supposed to have cosmetic defects, while instruments described as "thirds" were those with structural problems.  However, I don't know if that is used any more, as, I never see the latter description, and everything with a problem now seems to be a "second", and the problem can range from a finish ding to a broken neck.  I have bought a number of seconds over the years, and have been very happy with all of them. but they were purchased from dealers or distributors who gave very accurate descriptions as to why the instruments had been classified as seconds.   As others have stated, you should have a thorough description before making a final decision, but I wouldn't shy away from buying it just because it's a second, you could end up saving a lot of money on a good instrument.  (A friend of mine bought a new brand-name American-made guitar from a dealer who was selling it as defective; it had a loose brace that had been reglued, but the guitar sounded like the body was made of concrete, so they chose to sell it "as is" with about a 70% discount.  He was thrilled with how the sound came to life after he took out the sawed-off drumstick the repair shop had used to push the loose brace into position when they had reglued it, so sometimes it pays to take a chance on buying a defective instrument.)

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## jim simpson

Remember back in the day when Gibson would sell 2nds? The blemishes or whatever that caused them to be 2nds was never obvious to me.

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## CES

Run away, run away...

My first mandolin purchase was very similar.  The cosmetic blemishes described were there, but the thing also came with a huge neck bow, chipped nut, and the fretboard separating from the neck, a defect pronounced with truss adjustment.  I still have the thing and use it as a beater, but I spent almost as much having it fixed as I paid for it, and could have bought the same model new and set-up for only a little more.  That seller had great feedback and a 100% return policy, but essentially disappeared after the third email.  I had neither the time nor funds to really pursue it at the time.

That purchase was especially disappointing because my other "2nd" purchase, about a year earlier, was a Guild D-40 made not long after Fender bought them out...they were having some laquer issues, and so it came with some checking, and my arm's worn the finish a bit, but it's a great sounding and playing guitar.  It came from a shop with a good online and local reputation, the owner communicated honestly with me about the defects and positives (compared to other < 500 dollar guitars he had in stock, including an Alvarez I was looking at), and it came as advertised and well set-up, and remains the best "bargain" I've snagged from an instrument standpoint.  My daughter's now learning to play on it...

Seconds or B stocks can be excellent instruments, but can also be train wrecks.  Without a return policy I wouldn't do it, and, after my ebay experience, would only consider buying such an instrument from a seller that also had an actual storefront...

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## RickPick

Thanks again for all this helpful information. I have asked the seller for specifics about the status as a "second" but haven't had a response yet (still digesting turkey perhaps?). I don't know why a regular EBay seller wouldn't accept returns, but this seller doesn't seem to be the only one like that. I see that if I pay using PayPal, I will be insured by PayPal, so that's something to take into account, I guess. The description of the mandolin says it plays beautifully and is nicely set up, so THAT should count for something with PayPal if the instrument ends up being far less than desirable -- or not? What do you think? Bottom line is that it sure would be sweet to get an excellent price on a $1000 instrument that had some extremely minor shortcoming. Then again....

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## Mandolin Mick

I buy seconds for my Red Wing work shoes. Cost me $105 instead of $180. They're the best money can buy, but I still try them on to see if there's something wrong with them. Usually, it's just a blemish.

But, there's no way I'd spend more than $25 or so on a seconds mandolin without a return policy. At least then, I'd have an inexpensive wall hanger if I can't play it. 

I'd recommend patience or scour the Classifieds here and something better will turn up. Trust me ...  :Whistling:

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## Tom Sanderson

I agree that you should stay away from anything that doesn't offer some kind of trial period.

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## David Rambo

Sometimes a seller routinely adds that "no returns" policy.  In dealing on a 5 string bass, the seller agreed to a return policy, in spite of saying that he would not accept returns.  He thought that it weeded out the "frivolous" bidders, and serious bidders would contact him.  Maybe something can be worked out by e-mails with him?  If it's a good instrument it is well worth a try.

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## JeffD

> Being a "second" isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I bought a mandolin online once that was a factory second.  The store said it was a couple of finish blemishes.  .


The same here. I purchased one of the Paris Swing factory seconds, at a deep discount. I have yet to find the blemish or problem.  I play it regularly, and I cannot say I would enjoy it more if it was not a "blem".

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## mandobassman

> Remember back in the day when Gibson would sell 2nds? The blemishes or whatever that caused them to be 2nds was never obvious to me.


A good friend of mine worked for Gibson's QC dept. in electric guitars back in the early '90s.  He said instruments wouldn't go out unless they were perfect.  Said it killed him to have to destroy perfectly good guitars because they had barely visible blemishes.  They _had_ to destroy them.

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## Mandolin Mick

I bought a Hofner Cavern Bass at a several hundred dollar discount in 2003 because it had checking on the finish. I had to hold it at an angle to the light to even see it, so I bought it. Believe it or not, the checking actually disappeared within a few months; couldn't even tell where it had been.  :Smile: 

However, I still wouldn't spend money on a seconds mandolin unseen in person ...

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## Malcolm G.

It may also depend on the seller.

There are some folk who have arrangements with manufacturers and shippers to buy their seconds, refurbished and damaged instruments. They make their living moving these items, and must maintain impeccable credentials with both the suppliers and their customers. 

I've found several who are knowledgeable and extremely honest about the gear they list. Often they have 100% positive feedback - imagine how hard that is to maintain? They also have excellent return policies.

I have an Alvarez acoustic bass and an Alvarez 12 string that are essentially flawless (I mean I'm still looking for any problem).

However, I'd be very leery of any one-off sale with no trial and return clearly stated.

I've been one of those "born every minute" rubes in the past and learned the hard way.

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## almeriastrings

> A good friend of mine worked for Gibson's QC dept. in electric guitars back in the early '90s.  He said instruments wouldn't go out unless they were perfect.  Said it killed him to have to destroy perfectly good guitars because they had barely visible blemishes.  They _had_ to destroy them.


Yep. Same at Martin. They saw them in half... Dick Boak once gave me half of one. I asked for the other half and a pot of glue, but he wouldn't go there!  :Laughing:

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## RickPick

Well, couldn't somebody just DECIDE for me!?! I really appreciate all this information. I've been in touch with the seller and received an explanation I'm comfortable with in regard to the reason the instrument is/was a "second." I'm still very tempted, in spite of all the wise caution against buying from a seller with a "no returns" policy on this item. However, as the highest bid comes increasingly close to the selling price of a brand new instrument of the same variety, my temptation obviously lessens. And I suppose the bottom line is that some instruments -- no matter what their manufacturing pedigree -- just don't come out sounding like most others of their clones. So that would wipe out PayPal's warranty. hmmm.....   Is this Early Onset MAS?

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## Mandolin Mick

Sounds like your jonesing to buy a mandolin. Close your eyes, click your heels 3x, and say, "There's no axe like new, there's no axe like new ..."  :Wink:

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## CES

Lemme decide for you...don't do it!!

I realize that many people use ebay frequently for bigger purchases...heck, I personally know a lady who flipped a helicoptor on ebay once (but she ebays essentially for a living)...but my experience ruined me from buying an instrument, and probably anything else, for that matter, unless the seller has an actual storefront, even if they have a return policy.  The "no return" policy is an absolute deal killer, unless, as Mick suggested, they'll sell it for 25 bucks...

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## RickPick

Yeh, but the seller DOES have "an actual storefront!" He is a dealer for the brand that produced the "second", which is how he came by it. And then he upgraded a part or two, and set it up. Mick, I feel more like Alice than Dorothy -- "which way, which way?"

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## Mandolin Mick

OK ... maybe you should lift the curtain and tell us what kind of make, model, & year this mandolin is ... along with the price ... take the mystery out of it ...  :Wink:

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## JeffD

Second or not, it would be the no returns policy that would be the deal breaker for me.

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## CES

Unless it's a Gil, Dude, DMM, etc, I still wouldn't do it.  If the guy has a shop and does set-up work, what's with the refusal of a trial period, especially if you make it clear that you'll pay shipping both ways if you return it?  Mick's right, though, some details would help...if it's Elderly selling the thing, then I'd be more willing to accept their assessment of its condition than if it's Joe's Guitar shop that just happens to get a few Kentucky seconds in because they sell a lot of Blueridge dreads (Unless it's Big Joe's shop, then that's a different scenario, though I still wouldn't buy without a trial period!).  I've looked often at the Saga seconds sales page on ebay, but have never actually jumped at anything, either because the fairly and accurately reported defects were more than I was willing to risk without seeing it first, or because they were sold "as is."  Others have found some great deals on there...

But, if you want it that badly and are willing to accept the risk/loss if it turns out to be a train wreck, then by all means go for it, and I'll genuinely hope that you get the deal of the century!

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## allenhopkins

> Well, couldn't somebody just DECIDE for me!?!...


No.

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## Willie Poole

Buying a "second' with a "no return policy"  is walking on dangerous ground but without a description of what makes it a second I would pass....It could be a crooked neck, or fret spacing not correct... and the seller might have a no return policy because some one might buy it and try to make corrections to a major problem and when he can`t do it he will want to send it back in worse condition then when he bought it...."As is" deals on a lot of products means its a project item that the buyer will have to do some work to get it perfect....

   Too many good mandolins out there for sale to takes a chance with a second....

   Just my thoughts....Good luck....

   Willie

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## RickPick

Thanks, thanks, and thanks again! I've walked away, and that took a lot of encouragement from many of you, it seems! The instrument was a Loar LM-700, and it is still briefly for sale on EBay. But the price has now gone past what I'd be willing to risk, given the many bits of experience this site has passed on to me. I could handle the visible blemish, especially for a significant savings, but the No Returns policy was the deal-breaker --- even as much as I tried to believe otherwise. EBay can be a great marketplace, but it can be pretty scary place to purchase musical instruments, and I REALLY appreciate the cautions that this site has provided. Whoever gets this mandolin might get a good deal on a LM700, but you can always get a LM700 for just a little more than this one is likely to go for. With the inherent risk, I'll pass! Now I can look for the next one coming down the pike, and with a much better understanding of things, thanks to you folks!

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## mandobassman

Wise move!  You'll find a good deal. Be Patient.

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## almeriastrings

> Whoever gets this mandolin might get a good deal on a LM700, but you can always get a LM700 for just a little more than this one is likely to go for.


Very true - and it will likely have a blemish (or two, or three) thrown in for free, anyway....

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## Mandolin Mick

We're all very proud of you!  :Smile:

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