# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Titebond Hide glue

## MANDOLINMYSTER

Anyone ever use this stuff...is it worth messin with?

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## Skip Kelley

It doesn't have the strength of granular hide glue. I would leave that stuff on the shelf.

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## barry k

RUN, RUN AWAY FROM THIS STUFF AS FAST AS YOU CAN.  Dont even know why they make it ?  no good for nothin.  Real hide glue (granular) only way to go.

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## Hans

Use it for stamps that won't stick...then put a piece of tape over it.

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## Gail Hester

> Use it for stamps that won't stick...then put a piece of tape over it.


Exactly. :Laughing:

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## MikeEdgerton

When I was young and stupid I used this stuff on three vintage guitar bridges. They're upstairs still in place after several years at tension. That doesn't meant I'd ever use it again.

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## barry k

That anwsers the question of why they still make it. tested and true

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## MikeEdgerton

After the horror stories I've heard I wouldn't use it again. If they ever pop off I won't blame my workmanship, I'll blame the glue and my inexperience.  :Smile:

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## Rick Turner

Please use it all you want.  The use of this stuff guarantees job security for future luthiers.

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## Dale Ludewig

And luthier repair persons.

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## MikeEdgerton

> And luthier repair persons.


Would that be people that repair luthiers?

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## Dale Ludewig

We all need help.  But please don't apply that stuff to me.  I'll need more repair later.  I speak only for myself.   :Smile:

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

I'm glad I asked...sounds like its not that liked. I'll stick(no pun intended) with the real McCoy :Laughing:

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## Walt

Has anyone used it to brush on a spruce top before staining? Does it work well for that?

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## Lefty Luthier

This stuff is so bad that it makes me wonder if it is really made by the same company. My wife tried some on a loose chair brace and it was less than successful.

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## Ivan Kelsall

You guys like this stuff - right !,
                                          Ivan :Laughing:

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## toddjoles

it's great for creating a crackled antiqued finish on furniture!

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## Dale Ludewig

Walt/ Matt:

no.

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## Meadowview

Titebond Hide glue, be sure to not confuse it with Titebond Wood glue, which Roger Siminoff recommends in his book, "Constructing A Bluegrass Mandolin". If you take a tour of the Martin Guitar Factory you will see bottles of Titebond Wood glue sitting all over the place.

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## Gail Hester

Liquid hide glue (cold) needs additives to keep it stable as a liquid.  These ingredients are contaminants to good bonding.  Urea is the main additive and it ruins the stuff as serious adhesive.  

In addition to powdered hide glue the MSDS sheet lists the folowing ingredients:

SECTION 2 - COMPOSITION AND INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS 
Hazardous Ingredients        Percent 
ammonium thiocyanate        8.30 
dicyandiamide                    3.70

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## Woodworker

Hello everyone,

This is my first time here. I wanted to put in my opinion about the Titebond Liquid Hide Glue. After reading these posts I can't disagree with you more.

First off before I get too long winded with my own opinion you can't say anything bad about this product until you have read this-

http://www.wag-aic.org/1990/WAG_90_buck.pdf

This is a study that Stanford University did on the stuff-

I have been working with wood and wood glue most of my life. And no I Do Not work for Titebond. This material not only works like hot hide glue but works better then hot hide glue. It is in fact real hide glue and not fake hide glue.

Time and time again I see people giving the liquid version a bad wrap. Normally this is based only on what they have heard and rarely their own experience. This material ( when used properly ) just like the hot version works. In fact if you do take the time to read through the Stanford study you will find that not only is it just as good as the hot glue in most cases it is better.

To summarize the study they found that THE ONLY times when hot glue was a bit better was when the test was subjected to 150 degrees at 84% humidty for at least 3 to 6 days consistently. But in fact the liquid stuff had a much better sheer threshold.

I dare to say that this glue has gotten a bad reputation mainly based on the opinions of people who aren't the most compotent of wood workers in general. And yes if you grabbed a bottle of it that sat around in really hot or really cold temps for a few years you may have issues. But you would have the same problems with hot hide glue. Just buy it 8oz at a time and you will be fine.

Everyone owes it to themselves to go buy a bottle and try it themselves before making blind accusations without really knowing the facts. Do a little experimenting and you will be pleased I can assure you. A mandolin can be put together with such a marginal amount of glue that the glue is almost inconsiquential. Maybe it's the glue joints not the glue iteself that are the bigger issue here.

All the best

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## Mario Proulx

:Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:

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## Jeff Hildreth

" this glue has gotten a bad reputation mainly based on the opinions of people who aren't the most competent of woodworkers"

So, given that statement, I am either not a competent wood worker or my opinion is not valid.

Liquid Hide Glue is a substandard product when compared to Titebond.  I have used it and dismissed it.  Not on one ocassion but many. It is an inferior glue.

I have been a professional furniture maker for 20 years and an "amateur" instrument maker for 40 years.  I have used Liquid Hide Glue. Not only is it not a good glue.. as a crackle medium it sucks.

If you want to use it as a crackle medium  .. mix it with water  50/50.  
Apply your base coat of acrylic or latex paint.  
Let it dry.
Apply the hide glue mixture.
If applied with a flat brush you get the usual retired persons amateur weekend hobby look with square blocls of cracle and linear break up
If apllied with a roller... a more controlled and smaller crackle.
Then apply your top coat of latex or acrylic paint.
Againi done vwith a brush, blocky and linear, with a roller smaller and ovoidish
I would caution you to work extremely fast and do NOT go over any portion .. it will gum up and look caca.
Basic rule, thin glue and thin paint, small crackle, Thick paint thick glue large crackle.. and don't over do it. 

Let dry.. you may want to paint a very light coat of paint over the first one. But work fast.
When dry top coat with a clear finish as this whole mess can be destroyed with the intrusion of water

My advise.. Liquid Hide glue is also a poor crackle  medium as often the brown color bleeds through
yellow.  Get Ralph Lauren crackle medium in the gallon. Cheaper, better.

Hey but what do I know,  I am a lowly maker of painted of period furniture supplied to nationally famous companies who rebrand my work.

And because I think this glue sucks, I am  not a competent woodworker and my opinion is therefore of little value.

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## Hans

Hey, use it all you want...I'll pass.

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## Woodworker

Jeff Hildreth 
Registered User said-

[QUOTE]Hey but what do I know, I am a lowly maker of painted of period furniture supplied to nationally famous companies who rebrand my work.

And because I think this glue sucks, I am not a competent woodworker and my opinion is therefore of little value.  
     [/QUOTE



Jeff I am sorry but I find it odd that you are rebuting a claim that you never made. What I mean is you never did have a reply in this thread until my post so what are you trying to defend?

Please get over yourself and relax I wasn't slamming you. You are feeling insecure about something if you have to boast about how famous you are. I didn't think people would have been so child like with their responses here. I was not intending to offend anyone it was merely a statement, my opinion that was also backed by substantiated evidence vis a vis the Stanford study. Jeff obviously needs more coffee  :Coffee:

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## Jim Hilburn

Bob Bennedetto went off on "liquid hide glue" in his archtop building video. He said he used it on quite a few fingerboards when he was first building and had to replace them all. He said it was like sticky paste when it came off. But he's been building a long time and I wonder if what he used was Titebond Hide Glue in particular. Maybe this is where some of the bad reviews came from.
I used some Titebond Hide for a repair on my wifes Kay bass which had a loose neck. This was a fix to try to avoid removing the neck and was prescribed by an older bass repairman in the Denver area. Basically, you worked in the glue from the sides and tried to get as much in the joint as possible that way. Then a strap clamp around the body to pull in the heel and let it set a few days. The liquid hide was the choice because of it doesn't set up very fast.
 So far that neck is rock solid. Having heard all the bad reports I had stayed clear but once I had some I was kind of surprised because it sure didn't look like it would be as bad as all the rep.
 I would like to here some specific reports of failure from experience because it does seem like a bandwagon.
 Disclaimer: I don't use this to make my mandolins.

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## Bill Snyder

Woodworker, some of the people who did discourage its use are some of the BEST luthiers in the nation. 
I don't mean to offend you, but I will listen to their opinions *about building mandolins* all day long and take them at their word. 
You will notice that most of them say that Titebond (the original with the red label) is a good option for those not comfortable with using hot hide glue. That is what I have used. I have some hide glue and a little crock pot ready for use sometime soon.

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## billhay4

Actually, Woodworker, your post was deliberately provocative. The offending language has already been quoted and I agree that some of the most renowned luthiers in the country are the ones who weighed in against this glue.
Insulting these people is not the way to argue your case.
Bill

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## Jake Wildwood

Personally, I think it's all a moot point because as far as bottled glues go, Titebond original is all I use for joint/seam repair work. It's so easy to work with, especially compared to bottled hide, that it's just far superior.

It also doesn't go sour like milk after a few months...

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## Dale Ludewig

Woodworker,
First off, why don't you use your real name?  Most all builders, at the least, use their real names, not some substitute.  Do you have a dog in the fight?  And for that matter, there isn't a fight.  It's a discussion on using this product in instrument building.  And for what it's worth, I've been building furniture and instruments since 1974, full time.  I've been around the block.

This subject has been discussed many times here and the use of it for luthier work has been pretty much uniformly agreed upon: no.  MHO.  But relatively informed.

Dale

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## Lefty Luthier

To add a bit more science to this debate: In 1995 the Boeing Acoustics Research Lab conducted a test on a wide variety of adhesives, including several hide glues, including Titebond on plastics, metal, paper and wood. To make a very long story short, the Titebond Liquid Hide Glue had marginal adhesive strength under ideal conditions and it was discovered that if the materials to be bonded were the least bit damp, ie high humidity, the glue never really became rigid. The other hide glues were all superior under every test conducted though none met all of the aerospace standards for in-flight applications. I have no idea what was going on at Stanford but their results are not consistent with those that I conducted.

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## Geoff B

Out of curiosity I glued a top to some rims with the stuff, and after a few days returned to it and found the glue had never set at all.  It was still sticky and came off the rims just as easily as it came on.  Maybe I got a bad bottle, but that has never happened to me with any other glue!  Maybe the is a way to know which bottles are fresh and which have gone bad, but in my opinion, there is no reason to use it over other viable options.

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## Woodworker

To those of you who I suggest I post my real name I prefer my anonimity if that's ok? It's the internet and I don't know anyone here personally and would prefer to keep it like that. Trust me I am not out to drive anyone crazy or make irrational points. But comments like this intrigue me-


Lefty Luthier said-

 QUOTE] I have no idea what was going on at Stanford but their results are not consistent with those that I conducted. Lefty no offense but until you can produce a document with as much technical data as Stanford I would be more inclined to believe the legitamacy of their findings. As opposed to what it is you may have done as far as tests go I am not sure? Did you by chance even read the entire Stanford report?

I am really not going to try and convince anyone to use the stuff I really don't care what anyone uses truthfully. I just found the study rather fascinating and thought I would share it because in the wood working world this issue is a huge point of contention.

I will say this. I know the gent ( not personally ) that came up with the most recent version of the formula and he is a glue genius. I have talked to him in length about this subject and he agrees whole heartedly that most of the time this product fails because of user error. 

I can't be there while everyone is using the product so I am going to not even try and argue the point anymore. I do know that I use both the liquid glue as well as the hot glue. They both work the same in my book. Unless you are always working with hide glue you may just find it difficult to work period.

1) You can't expect hide to set-up in 30 minutes. You need at least 12 to 36 hours at 75 degrees and 50% humidity. The glue film needs to dry to it's normal moisture content of 12%. Edge gluing will dry in 20 minutes to an hour where as fingerboards or large surface area can be much longer. For hot and liquid glue.

2) Your glue joints have to be perfect because hide glue is not a filler! You can't smoosh glue in a crack then clamp it and expect it to work. Both surfaces have to be properly machined or cleaned.

3) Insufficient clamping pressure is also a factor. 100 to 200 pounds per sq inch are recommended.

4) Whether it's hot ot liquid hide you can't expect to glue things up in a garage in the summer without proper environment control and expect it to work. The conditions have to be perfect for the set to occur properly and today most people are way too busy to afford the time to wait. You need an environment that doesn't exceed 75 degrees and preferably 40 to 45% humidity.

Now before someone starts yelling at me and tells me I am irrational or rude remember this. I have been providing tangable evidence on the subject. Everyone whom has given me a difficult time has not really offered any logical advice other than "band wagon" etc....

I am trying to help and be informative not trying to be rude abrasive. I know this subject very well and better then most. Someone actually said they will trust the word of a world class luthier any day of the week because they are pros etc. Well you don't even know if I am one of them?
 of their findings. As opposed to what it is you may have done as far as tests go I am not sure? Did you by chance even read the entire Stanford report?

Now before someone starts yelling at me and tells me I am irrational or rude remember this. I have been providing tangable evidence on the subject. Everyone whom has given me a difficult time has not really offered any logical advice other than "band wagon" etc....

I am trying to help and be informative not trying to be rude abrasive. I know this subject very well and better then most. Someone actually said they will trust the word of a world class luthier any day of the week because they are pros etc. Well you don't even know if I am one of them?
 of their findings. As opposed to what it is you may have done as far as tests go I am not sure? Did you by chance even read the entire Stanford report?

I am really not going to try and convince anyone to use the stuff I really don't care what anyone uses truthfully. I just found the study rather fascinating and thought I would share it because in the wood working world this issue is a huge point of contention.

I will say this. I know the gent ( not personally ) that came up with the most recent version of the formula and he is a glue genius. I have talked to him in length about this subject and he agrees whole heartedly that most of the time this product fails because of user error. 

I can't be there while everyone is using the product so I am going to not even try and argue the point anymore. I do know that I use both the liquid glue as well as the hot glue. They both work the same in my book. Unless you are always working with hide glue you may just find it difficult to work period.


Now before someone starts yelling at me and tells me I am irrational or rude remember this. I have been providing tangable evidence on the subject. Everyone whom has given me a difficult time has not really offered any logical advice other than "band wagon" etc....

I am trying to help and be informative not trying to be rude abrasive. I know this subject very well and better then most. Someone actually said they will trust the word of a world class luthier any day of the week because they are pros etc. Well you don't even know if I am one of them?

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## billhay4

A very odd post, Woodworker, and I won't address it directly.
Indirectly, however, your refusal to reveal who you are and what your credentials are is disingenuous at best, and completely damaging to any argument you are trying to present at worst.
We know who Hans, Dale, Lefty, etc. are. Your unsubstantiated assertion that you know glues better than others is weak in the face of their expertise.
Lastly, your claim that you aren't trying to be rude or insult people is absurd in the face of your original post. Perhaps you don't have a way with words. If this is the case, I'd recommend not making long, rambling, inaccurate, and flaming posts in the future.
Bill Hay

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## Woodworker

Bill,

You just have it wrong. Flaming posts? I don't know what you are talking about I am sorry? I went back and read my original post and by no means was it an assault on anyones or anyones in particular intelligence etc. 

I was merely stating the facts of the information that I have obtained and that I have learned. You included have been more insulting to me then I have been to anyone here. You included have not offered any information on this particular thread that would be enlighteing at all. If you look back through the thread no-one offered any info on the subject other then to chime in to give me a hard time. Does that seem fair to you?

Bill you owe me an apology I feel like you folks are ganging up on the new guy and it's completely unfounded and childish!!

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## Jeff Hildreth

I am not "famous"
I was  qualifying my experience...  not elevating my status which seems to be the impetus of your post.  

And  no I don't think I will get over myself.. we enjoy each other..

It is also obvious you are levity impaired

You are one guy with a single post hiding behind anonimity.

The glue is inferior. I won't use it

You like , use it ,  but please don't try to sell me on something based on your singular experience 
(unknown quantity) and a Stanford report. Your implication seems to be that since others find it inferior...
they are woefully deficient as  craftspersons.  Ergo  you are right, and a highly skilled woodworker.

You owe this group an apology for underestimating  experience and skill.

Get over yourself.  Who ever you are.

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## Jeff Hildreth

Woodworker

May I suggest that you carefully read your last post and either get off ,or take some more, meds.

Nothing personal ,you understand, as you are simply Anon .

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## Bill Snyder

I am the one that said I would take advice from some of the experienced luthiers who have posted over you or the Stanford study. It is because I am somewhat familiar with their credentials and the results they have been able to consistently get with their glue choices. 
It would seem like folly to me to try a product on an instrument that I am spending several hours on after being told by those more knowledgeable than me not to. 
If I knew more about your credentials then perhaps I would weigh your opinions equally with the likes of Hans Brentrup, Mario Proulx, Dale Ludewig, and others from previous posts on the topic.
I am a pretty skilled woodworker and I have built a few instruments but I certainly do not hold myself up as an expert on luthiery so I tend to listen to those who are experts.

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## Gail Hester

If you climb to the top of the mountain to get the real answer on this subject you'll get this:

"Commercial liquid hide glues have gel suppressants & remain liquid at room temperature. They are not quite as useful for most instrument work: slightly greater tendency for the joint to “creep,” lower moisture & heat resistance, short shelf life, no initial tack. Many instrument makers and repairers use liquid hide glue, but they are (or should be) careful to test each batch, in addition to watching the expiration date printed on the bottle.

Urea will extend the working time of the glue, and will not weaken the adhesion if it is mixed with the glue just before use. More than 5-10% urea (by dry weight) may increase the flexibility of the dried glue; it may allow glue joints to “creep” more, especially in heat stress. Most instrument builders and repairers try to avoid having to use urea."...Frank Ford, http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luth.../hideglue.html

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## Woodworker

_A tirade of no value to the community that falls well outside the POSTING GUIDELINES has been removed._

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## Mike Scott

Hmmm.....................I have a very stupid question.  I don't work with wood hardly at all and when I do the product would be considered crude to say the least.  Glue?  I have been known to use Gorilla Glue when I find glue a necessity.  

Now on to the question.  Is hide glue derived from animal hides or does it "hide when it dries"(does not show) or why is it called hide glue?  

Sorry to go off on a tangent after all the acrimony, but I am just curious.  :Confused: 

Thanks,

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## woodwizard

I kinda feel a shutdown/lock coming. This is a family site you know. Please watch the choice of words folks.

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## Mario Proulx

:Popcorn:

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## bennyb

Should I stay out of this?  Of course.  Am I gonna?  Evidently not.  The study woodworker links to was done by one Linda L. Buck, research fellow(grad student)at Univ. of Delaware in 1990.  She prepared 40 samples(20 each of hot hide and Liquid Hide) of glued blocks then stored them in different moisture environments(relative humidity) and at 150 degrees F. for 36 days before shipping them off to Franklin Int'l to conduct the tests on their equipment.  I've read the conclusion a couple of times, it's still kind of murky.  
     Hide glue is made of hides, possibly pig hides.

My best to all, benny

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## Lefty Luthier

The tests that I conducted in 1995 consisted of various materials bonded together, wood to wood, wood to metal, wood to plastic, plastic to metal etc. All were subjected to several tests including pull for creep and ultimate, twist to test lift off, bending and impact by dropping a 10 pound flat weight from 10 feet to test impact resistance. Of the natural glues, the best was Belens hide glue in a 50% water mix applied at 145 deg F. The only test that the Titebond Liquid Hide glue passed was impact. Sorry that proprietary rules prevent that data being made public but believe me, the tests were very carefully conducted by highly skilled technicians.

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## JEStanek

Having received multiple communications related to this thread I'm going to give it a very short leash from hence forward.  Those who wish to engage in personal remarks between each other are suggested to use private messages, ideally by filling in the message, walking away from the computer for 15 minutes, re-reading the text aloud five times knowing the recipient will likely not "hear" a word you have written and then promptly pushing the cancel button.

We have excellent posting guidelines.  They allow for spirited conversation.  Lets maintain a conversation or I'll close this down.

Jamie

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## Rick Turner

I'm going to jump in and say that fresh LMI white glue is superior to Titebond "ole yaller" in terms of handling slightly higher temperatures and having lower cold creep.  I find it dries harder as well.

If you want a slow tacking old time glue, try fish glue, preferably Russian sturgeon air bladder "isinglass".   It's used in a fair amount of museum conservation work and you can Google for suppliers.   Not cheap, but apparently really good stuff.   The sturgeon-derived fish glue has the highest resistance to humidity of all the fish glues.

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

Geez look what I started...it seemed like a simple question. I will say that I trust what the Known luthiers here have said. :Confused:

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## Peter LaMorte

This thread ain't worth squat until Mario tells us what he really thinks hahahahahahahahaaha  :Whistling:  :Whistling:  :Whistling: 
Peter

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## Rick Turner

Mario's "hot hide glue in a squeeze bottle" technique erases almost all objections to using the stuff.   It's incredibly convenient that way and once hot, it's no more difficult to use HHG than any other glue as long as you work quickly and have everything ready to go.   I think a lot of folks think they have to clamp up in five seconds, but even that is not true.  If you work even halfway efficiently, it's no big deal.   Why take chances with glue we know to be less than reliable?  Besides which, like it or not, saying you use hot hide glue is worth some money to the right customers; it's marketable.   Many of us are in this to make a living...

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## man dough nollij

I've heard that Gibson only uses HHG on their MM and DMM models. I wonder what they use on their other models? Something like regular Titebond?

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## Mario Proulx

_ain't worth squat until Mario tells us what he really thinks_


Just enjoying the show <lol> 

Glue; the final frontier....

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## Bill Snyder

Since Woodworker has had his posts removed it makes ours look a bit nonsensical. 
Oh well, probably not the first time and probably not the last.  :Smile:

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## Michael Lewis

Re prepared hide glue, it has a shelf life, and the older it gets the less dependable it becomes.  It CAN be strong if fairly new and as long as it doesn't pick up moisture.  I made a few instruments with Franklin Hide Glue and soon discovered it was not a good choice.  However, one mandolin survived more than 15 years in a dry climate but when subjected to excess humidity it let go and pretty much fell apart.  That glue sucks water out of the atmosphere like no other glue I have used.  As with most things, YMMV.

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## man dough nollij

> Since Woodworker has had his posts removed it makes ours look a bit nonsensical. 
> Oh well, probably not the first time and probably not the last.


I can see how a world famous furniture luthier like Mr Woodpecker wouldn't want to have his name besmirched by associating with the amateurs here.  :Whistling:

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## Woodworker

*



			
				I can see how a world famous furniture luthier like Mr Woodpecker wouldn't want to have his name besmirched by associating with the amateurs here.
			
		

*


Do you see what I mean about this situation. Here comes a guy who plays with penguins out of the blue just to be insulting. I would have thought the
ornithologist would have liked me since he referred to me as -

Mr Woodpecker?

And when did I ever say I was a world famous furniture maker? I never once said I made furniture did I? I just stated I was a woodworker.

Just goes to prove that this is just an old boys club where nobody is reading anything just jumping in to take a swipe. It's unkind and childish.

I can't believe that people like Mario Proulx have the time to sit around and make comments like-

*



			
				Just enjoying the show <lol>
			
		

*

Maybe we should be more focused on our guitar making so we can improve rather then being the creepy dude in the corner don't ya think Mario :Whistling:  :Whistling:  :Whistling: 

 :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:

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## IndyAnne

> Please use it all you want.  The use of this stuff guarantees job security for future luthiers.


Best answer! :-)

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## David Newton

As thread subjects go, none go longer than a thread about glue. This one, specifically about FLHG, is only 3 pages long.
If I started one with the title "what is the best glue for building instruments?" it would be twice as long by now.
If I started one with the title "what finish is best?" it would be longer than that.

If FLHG was as bad as you guys say, it is surely a wonder that Franklin is still stocking the shelves with it. Don't ask me who is using it, it is not me!

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## peter.coombe

Mmm, yes well I have to admit to using liquid hide glue many years ago when I knew no better and the Internet was not as it is today and Mandolincafe did not exist.  Two of my mandolins have been glued together with Franklin liquid hide glue.  One was left in the back of a car by stupid me.  The varnish melted, but the glue held firm.  It was re-varnished and is still going fine around 20 years later.  The last I heard about the other one is that it was also doing fine.  However, neither of these mandolins have been in high humidity for long periods as far as I am aware.  I stopped using it soon afterwards after some issues with fingerboards, probably because of the humidity created by sweat from the hands, and have only used it to glue temporary things such as pearl inlay before tracing after that.  It does have a short shelf life, so many of the problems may be because it was not fresh.  I won't use it again except for temporary joins where it is fine, even if not fresh.

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## CedarSlayer

> Hello everyone,
> 
> First off before I get too long winded with my own opinion you can't say anything bad about this product until you have read this-
> 
> http://www.wag-aic.org/1990/WAG_90_buck.pdf
> 
> This is a study that Stanford University did on the stuff- ............
> .........
>  A mandolin can be put together with such a marginal amount of glue that the glue is almost inconsiquential. Maybe it's the glue joints not the glue iteself that are the bigger issue here.
> ...


Reading the experiment, hot hide glue came out more consistent and reliable over a greater range of environments.  The liquid hide glue won wildly in a few areas but overall did not do as well.   This experiment does not take into account the age, and shipping issues that strongly effect liquid hide glue.  

When I reach for my hide glue, I know that it will be the same in 5 years.  Have the same strengths, weaknesses and behavior until I finish up the entire batch.  I will order more, way before I run out, and test it on less critical applications.  By having a 5 year or more supply, I can ensure a level of reliability that liquid hide glue can never have.

The argument that incompetent woodworkers might end up preferring hot hide glue to liquid hide glue is a very interesting.   

Full disclosure, I have had several very large projects ruined by bad glue.   I am very, very biased on this issue.  

Bob

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## pioneervalley

<Removed by Moderator. Please limit commerce to the classifieds>

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## MikeEdgerton

Just to update, the bridges I mentioned on page one of this thread years ago are still holding. A whole lot can be said about prepping your glue joint. I think I finally threw the bottle of this I had a way a few years ago.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Just to update, the bridges I mentioned on page one of this thread years ago are still holding. A whole lot can be said about prepping your glue joint. I think I finally threw the bottle of this I had a way a few years ago.




For what it is worth here is a second scientifically conducted study of glue bonding strength showing liquid hide glue coming out equal to (actually a slight bit *stronger*  even than) fresh hot hide glue......

This test seems very well conducted and includes other glues as well such a epoxy, polyurethane, and two types a aliphatic glues (PVA) as well.

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Dobe

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## AaronVW

If one chooses to use liquid hide glue, is there a good way to ensure that the batch is fresh other than the expiration date on the bottle?  Smell?  I have only used fresh made hot hide, Titebond Original and the LMII white instrument makers' glue.....

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## Larry Simonson

I was intrigued on an earlier thread on this subject by a suggestion that the additive (urea?) could be added to HHG at the last minute with the affect of increasing the glue set up time, which I sense is HHG's only significant drawback.   Any further thoughts on this procedure?

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## Bernie Daniel

> If one chooses to use liquid hide glue, is there a good way to ensure that the batch is fresh other than the expiration date on the bottle?  Smell?  I have only used fresh made hot hide, Titebond Original and the LMII white instrument makers' glue.....


Seems to me that might be one of the major limitations of the liquid hide glue?  A person would have to make sure they keep track of the purchase date by maybe writing it on the bottle when new?  A biochemist's rule of thumb is that the Q10 of most biochemical reactions is approximately 2 -3.  That is the reaction *slows* two to three-fold with each 10 degree *drop* in  Celsius (or each 18 degrees drop Fahrenheit) temperature.   So perhaps by storing your glue in the freezer you could extend its useful life span 4 - 6 fold?  I think common aliphatic glues have a shelf life too?

I also wonder if it would not be fairly easy to test the glue before you use it on your project?  For example glue the ends of two 1"X1/2" boards at a right angle and when the glue is set force the ends the two pieces together in the vice and see if the wood breaks or the glue fails first!   :Smile:

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## oldieone

I called Franklin International today.
The way there tech service gave to test whether the hide glue is still good is to spread a sample on a piece of paper, place in a 150F. oven till the glue is dry (about a half hour).
Bend the paper. If the glue cracks, it's still good.
Also, storing hide glue and Tight Bond Original,in the refrigerator will extend the shelf life.up to 10 years. Do not let either glue freeze. 
oldieone

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## Bernie Daniel

> I called Franklin International today.
> The way there tech service gave to test whether the hide glue is still good is to spread a sample on a piece of paper, place in a 150F. oven till the glue is dry (about a half hour).
> Bend the paper. If the glue cracks, it's still good.
> Also, storing hide glue and Tight Bond Original,in the refrigerator will extend the shelf life.up to 10 years. Do not let either glue freeze. 
> oldieone


Good info!

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