# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  De Meglio Company and the House of Savoy

## MandolinoNapoletano

The label on ALL De Meglio labels has the Coat of Arms of the House of Savoy(Royal Family of Italy) and says(translated) "Suppliers of the Royal Family" and on other De Meglio labels a few years later "Commended by the King and Queen of Italy".  I find that very interesting given it is the only mandolin factoring business to carry the Coat of Arms and claim this.  Generally thinking you would think that possibly it was required by carry this emblem however no other mandolins from Naples carry it.  Surely it couldn't be just gloating, because penalties to say a factory is supported by the royal family and it isn't would carry a harsh penalty.  I'm wondering what the Royal Family had to do with this business.  Possibly it supplied instruments or luthier services for the musicians of the Royal Family? Any thoughts on this guys?

----------


## vkioulaphides

I would take it as a "stamp of approval", rather than anything more concrete than that. That is, at least, the customary significance of royal endorsement in other products. But perhaps Italy's monarchs —in excellent taste, I would hasten to add!— _did_ in fact engage the de Meglio company more substantively, vis-a-vis the instrumentarium of the royal household. 

After all, Restoration-era British monarchs had in their service some lowly, no-name "keeper of vialls, fluetes, bases, and vari'd other sortes of musikall instruments" to make sure everything sounded OK. His name was... Henry Purcell! The office of luthier and instrument repairman was in fact a highly respected one, and surely the de Meglio company would have delivered prime service to the House of Savoy.

I don't know the facts involved in this particular case, though...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

I probably have a better photo of a label at home (or could take one of mine) but here is one from a blog.

It is interesting that I don't think I have ever seen a DeMeglio mandolin that was sold in Italy. All the ones i have seen had bee imported to the UK.

Also, I don't see on this 1903 label that that is the coat of arms of the royal family in Italy. I thought is was DeMeglio's coat of arms. Of course, I am not familiar what that should look like anyway, so I could stand corrected.

I also see the "Commended by the royal family" but not the "Suppliers to".

----------


## vkioulaphides

It _may_ be a version of 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Savoy

as there are many, of varying graphic accuracy, and affixed to various items. 

But I am admittedly weak on matters royal, as I come from staunch adherents of the (Greek) First Republic, Velizelos, and all that. But all that was well before derivatives... ;-)

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

1. My best friend is a Royal Honor Guard of Italy.  They specialize in all the ceremonial events for the King and the Royal Family of Italy.  Also he certified that it is the coat of arms of the Savoy family.  He looked at the etichet and recognized immediately.  There's no doubt that it is that.  It's even written on it "REAL CASA" .  Go to this site and see where it leads you and look immediately at the logo on the site.  It's the SAME EXACT LOGO on the etichett of De Meglio Mandolins. LINK: http://www.crocerealedisavoia.it/ 

2.   On that particular label "encomiato dalle LL. MM ....." yes the phrase goes to say that it is "Approved by the King and Queen of Italy".  However I will refer you to MY mandolin label.   It says clearly at the top "FORNITORI (ROYAL SAVOY FAMILY LOGO) DELLA REAL CASA."  This translates clearly to "SUPPLIERS OF THE ROYAL HOUSE".  Even in modern day Italy if you want to say internet provider you say "FORNITORE DI SERVIZI...".   So there is no doubt that this is what it means.  Now if you look at the site look long and hard at that logo and compare it to that in the De Meglio... It's the same.  Being an Italian you wouldn't say "Real Casa" normally.  It's a thing of the royal family.


The REAL question is what did De Meglio have to do with the Royal Family.  I have emailed some prominent luthiers in Italy to see if they can figure this out.

----------


## brunello97

Here is a DeMeglio label including 'fornitori della real casa'.....Who they were supplying at the palace is anyone's guess.  Wasn't Margherita of Savoy, of pizza fame, also reputed to be a mandolin enthusiast?  

This first label attached has a warning against faux Meglios which at least hints at a wider market than just the UK--or it could simply be more marketing eyewash to go along with all the flourish on the signatures.  The second image is of a DeMeglio label from it seems before the sons were on on board.  It appears to lack the royal seal but I can't see the stamp well enough to read what it says.  I do enjoy the DeMeglio labels, they are probably my favorites right after the the Puglisi.

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE=MandolinoNapoletano;796077]My best friend is a Royal Honor Guard of Italy.[QUOTE]

Well... then he may be your best source and resource in this matter. Royal houses are known for keeping detailed inventories, records of purchase, payrolls, etc. That is, for example, how we know so much about musicians who served royal/noble households, since time immemorial. 

And this goes not only _music_, of course. The main reason, for example, that we have any record of Philodemus (of Gadara) was that he was "house philosopher" to Piso, Calpurnia's father, and thus Julius Caesar's father-in-law. It is from the charred scrolls of Herculanum, scorched along with Pompeii, that we have record of the library, what books were bought for it, what texts copied (in manuscript, of course), who paid whom and for what, etc. Ditto on all those Florentine, Mantuan, Ferrarese, etc. count-books, which tell us so very much about the contractual agreements that the great artists of the Renaissance entered into with their noble patrons.

So my suggestion would be to look into archival material of that particular court— the "buy-side" of the deal, so to speak.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Oh, I believe you and am fascinated by all this. It looks like the label changed after, say 1900 without the suppliers part. Maybe they lost the contract?

BTW I am uploading the coat of arms here for posterity.

----------


## Bruce Clausen

A quick search turns up such advertising claims as this:  "Crosse and Blackwell, Purveyors in Ordinary to Her Majesty, respectfully invite attention to their PICKLES, Sauces, Tart Fruits, and other table delicacies..."  As Mick suggests, someone in the family (a brother-in-law?) may have traded this kind of prestige for a nice mando now and then.

Funny that the warning against imitations is in French.  Also, is the actual stamp affixed to the label a "tax paid" stamp?  Like the old US liquor bottles had?

BC

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> Here is a DeMeglio label including 'fornitori della real casa'.....Who they were supplying at the palace is anyone's guess.  Wasn't Margherita of Savoy, of pizza fame, also reputed to be a mandolin enthusiast?  
> 
> This first label attached has a warning against faux Meglios which at least hints at a wider market than just the UK--or it could simply be more marketing eyewash to go along with all the flourish on the signatures.  The second image is of a DeMeglio label from it seems before the sons were on on board.  It appears to lack the royal seal but I can't see the stamp well enough to read what it says.  I do enjoy the DeMeglio labels, they are probably my favorites right after the the Puglisi.
> 
> Mick


Margherita of Savoy _was_ a mandolinist.  She was also the right age to be a potential _player_ of a De Meglio mandolin.  If any _logical_ inference would be made given this information, it would be that Margherita of Savoy was a De Meglio player and therefore endorsed this product.  It's a common fact since the Renaissance that families of wealth and power used to endorse different artists, inventors, and musicians.  It's quite possible Margherita fancied a De Meglio and used it as her personal instrument.  It's also quite possible De Meglio could have been her particular luthier of choice, given the longevity of the endorsement of De Meglio labels.

A little food for thought : In June 1889 the NEAPOLITAN Raffaele Esposito made the modern "pizza" and named it the "Pizza Margherita" in honor of Margherita of Savoy.  This is right _about_ the time period De Meglio mandolins start _rapidly_ appearing on the scene.  Who is to say that another NEAPOLITAN Giovanni De Meglio couldn't have had the honor to make a mandolin for Margherita and upon becoming the luthier of choice, start to advertise royal endorsement.  If any logical _guess_ could be made,  I think this would be it.

----------


## Schlegel

There are, interestingly, Neapolitan mandolins from that time made by a luthier named Raffaele Esposito. A relative or the same one? I do not know.

----------


## Graham McDonald

The Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia http://museo.santacecilia.it has a collection of Queen Margarita's instruments and other related musical items which include a very fancy mandolin made by Rosario Porto e Figli in Catania. It is inventory No7 and the link to it is here. Whether or not it is her favourite mandolin I have no idea, a search on the site for de Meglio gets no hits. The only modern (a century ago) mandolin in the instruments the Queen donated to the Musem is the Porto

cheers

graham

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

This is me just playing a sloppy version of Speranze Perdute on my De Meglio.  There are not many videos of them out there on the web so I thought I would make a quick video playing it with no accompaniment, so people could hear the true tune of the instrument.  I'm using a medium Dunlop pick with 9 month old Calace strings.

----------


## brunello97

Here is a label from a Raffaele Esposito mandolin touting his connection to the Vinaccias.  The image looks neither like a pizza nor the Savoy crest, unfortunately. Perhaps some type of lyre or harp.  I have labels from the Fratelli Esposito from earlier '90s, and closer in time to the pizza incident, but nothing from RE that old.  Were all of the Espositos--Gennaro, Pasquale and Raffaele--brothers?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> The Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia http://museo.santacecilia.it has a collection of Queen Margarita's instruments and other related musical items which include a very fancy mandolin made by Rosario Porto e Figli in Catania. It is inventory No7 and the link to it is here. Whether or not it is her favourite mandolin I have no idea, a search on the site for de Meglio gets no hits. The only modern (a century ago) mandolin in the instruments the Queen donated to the Musem is the Porto


Thanks for that link, Graham. The Savoy collectioin is interesting. There are some strange guitars there as well as mandoliras by Calace and Dabiero, a few Monzino instruments, a rather nice looking Pasquale Vinaccia from 1869, a David Tecchler mandolino and an unusual Embergher instrument called a chitarra-mandola bassa (looks like it has 6 strings but 8 tuners and a guitar bridge -- maybe converted from a mandocello?). Here is Porto and the Vinaccia. My guess is that Porto made this over-the-top ornamented mandolin and presented it to the queen. it is much too much glitz for me.

----------


## brunello97

Wow. The pickguard on the Porto is amazing.  A websearch for images of her highness yielded this one below.  It is of low quality, and nothing to give a positive ID to the woman in white in the front row.    Are there other images out there of her with mandolin(ists)?  With pizza?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Mick:
I think she might be sitting on that Porto. [Sorry: I have to... i think she had one mandolin built for outside use called a Porto-san]

Please forgive me. Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Thanks for the video, MandolinoNapoletano.  That's really nice fluent playing.  Wish I could get such a smooth tremolo!

BC

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> Thanks for the video, MandolinoNapoletano.  That's really nice fluent playing.  Wish I could get such a smooth tremolo!
> 
> BC


Hey thanks so much for the compliment.  It means a lot.

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> The Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia http://museo.santacecilia.it has a collection of Queen Margarita's instruments and other related musical items which include a very fancy mandolin made by Rosario Porto e Figli in Catania. It is inventory No7 and the link to it is here. Whether or not it is her favourite mandolin I have no idea, a search on the site for de Meglio gets no hits. The only modern (a century ago) mandolin in the instruments the Queen donated to the Musem is the Porto
> 
> cheers
> 
> graham


Thanks for the information.  Great link.  Getting back to the main topic, and De Meglio's connection with The Royal Family.  It's anyones guess at this stage of the game.  My friend who is in the honor guard said Emanuele Filiberto (The Now Prince of Italy)  took all of these Honor Guards to a special conservatory room when they were doing a vacation for their duty at the Pantheon, where he reported there were many _MANY_ different instruments in this room.  He said there were mandolins, *bigger* mandolins which obviously means mandolas, guitars, violins, and pianos of the Royal Family.  He said when he goes back to Rome to do his duty, he will be looking for this mark on one of the many mandolins.  I think then we might be able to get down to the bottom of this.

----------


## brunello97

Sounds like this could be un hareng rouge or else the plot of a new Dan Brown novel: young, beautiful mandolinista gets caught up with Propaganda Due, the King of Jerusalem, the Knights Templar (or course) for good measure.  Lots of great location shots in Napoli, Malta, Catania as Tom Hanks goes from pizzeria to liuteria chasing clues.  The soundtrack alone would be worth the movie. But all this speculation was worth it to remind me how much I like DeMeglio mandolins (and our new forno al legno--the pies are extraordinary.)  When the current herd is sufficiently thinned it will be time to be finding myself one.  There is some motivation there.

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

No idea about the De Meglio connection.  Queen Margherita was certainly a mandolinist, and while she may have played a De Meglio at some stage, the only mandolin I _know_ she played is a very fancy 1880s Vinaccia on display in the Victoria & Albert Museum in London -- I've seen it and it's way over the top (nicely made, though, and with the Savoy crest in the inlay).  Paul Sparks mentions the Queen seven times in his book "The Classical Mandolin", but only two of these citations mention the mandolin she was playing: one from 1865 (a Pasquale Vinaccia) and one from 1898 (again a Vinaccia "valued at 300 Pounds", possibly the one in the V&A).  Then there is this Vinaccia label from 1902, posted a few years ago by Jim Garber, showing the Savoy crest and the inscription "_Provveditori di S.M. LA REGINA MARGHERITA_".  All in all, it seems fairly clear that the Queen herself, at least, was a one-shop Vinaccia afficionado.  If De Meglio managed to get a royal endorsement it would appear not to have been from the Queen.

Martin

PS: I love your recording of Speranze Perdute!  Apart from the lovely tone of the De Meglio, you have a great groove.  I've recently recorded that tune myself for Youtube, but my playing is way wooden compared to yours!

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> No idea about the De Meglio connection.  Queen Margherita was certainly a mandolinist, and while she may have played a De Meglio at some stage, the only mandolin I _know_ she played is a very fancy 1880s Vinaccia on display in the Victoria & Albert Museum in London -- I've seen it and it's way over the top (nicely made, though, and with the Savoy crest in the inlay).  Paul Sparks mentions the Queen seven times in his book "The Classical Mandolin", but only two of these citations mention the mandolin she was playing: one from 1865 (a Pasquale Vinaccia) and one from 1898 (again a Vinaccia "valued at 300 Pounds", possibly the one in the V&A).  Then there is this Vinaccia label from 1902, posted a few years ago by Jim Garber, showing the Savoy crest and the inscription "_Provveditori di S.M. LA REGINA MARGHERITA_".  All in all, it seems fairly clear that the Queen herself, at least, was a one-shop Vinaccia afficionado.  If De Meglio managed to get a royal endorsement it would appear not to have been from the Queen.
> 
> Martin
> 
> PS: I love your recording of Speranze Perdute!  Apart from the lovely tone of the De Meglio, you have a great groove.  I've recently recorded that tune myself for Youtube, but my playing is way wooden compared to yours!



Thank you so much for your kind words.  I would like to hear your recording on youtube, if you could post a link.  Thank you once again.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Thank you so much for your kind words.  I would like to hear your recording on youtube, if you could post a link.  Thank you once again.


I've recorded it twice, once quite slowly (the speed we tend to play it at with our ensemble) on my Embergher (link) and again a bit faster on my Mid-Missouri (link).  There are also a fair number of other ballo liscio tunes in my channel (link), played on either my Embergher or my Ceccherini.  But, as I said, I am pretty wooden compared to you.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

For yet another one of my habitual trivia, the term _provveditore_ (spelled with a single "v" in Venetian) has had fairly broad connotations across the centuries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provveditore

We had such dogal "purveyors" on our islands since the Middle Ages. 

A more-recent-day purveyor is, well... any number of things, specific or non-specific. It would be nice to substantiate, not just by logical inference, but by factual data, some de Meglio connection with the House of Savoy. The likelihood that something _may_ be so does not of course constitute proof that it _is_ so. Due diligence, and all that...

The lovely instruments of this shop certainly _merit_ distinction! Sweet, even-sounding, and SO quintessentially Neapolitan!

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

Do I recall correctly that our friend, M-N, resides in the upstate NY area?  Is that correct?  In any event perhaps you might find this article of interest on the mandolin in early 20th c Buffalo:

http://wings.buffalo.edu/research/an...ickson-art.pdf

Forgive me if this is a repost.

Still puzzled by the question raised by Jim earlier as to why we don't see DeMeglio (or a range of other Italian bowlbacks--DeMureda, Stridente, Lanfranco, etc.) at sites other than in the UK--or perhaps downstream from there.  I regularly visit on ebay.it looking at old mandolins and have not seen one there or at the favorite purveyor sites of mandolino antico. Certainly no conclusions should be suggested by this very limited observation.  The history of the builders, shops, marketing, etc. of these old mandolins remains so elusive.  

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

As to Victor's repeat of my question -- I actually thought I made a mistake but I think it is generally true of Demeglio and moreso with Ceccherini -- almost all of those instrument s made their way to the UK via importers notably Alban Voight.

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> I've recorded it twice, once quite slowly (the speed we tend to play it at with our ensemble) on my Embergher (link) and again a bit faster on my Mid-Missouri (link).  There are also a fair number of other ballo liscio tunes in my channel (link), played on either my Embergher or my Ceccherini.  But, as I said, I am pretty wooden compared to you.
> 
> Martin


Great job beautiful mandolin tones.

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> Do I recall correctly that our friend, M-N, resides in the upstate NY area?  Is that correct?  In any event perhaps you might find this article of interest on the mandolin in early 20th c Buffalo:
> 
> http://wings.buffalo.edu/research/an...ickson-art.pdf
> 
> Forgive me if this is a repost.
> 
> Still puzzled by the question raised by Jim earlier as to why we don't see DeMeglio (or a range of other Italian bowlbacks--DeMureda, Stridente, Lanfranco, etc.) at sites other than in the UK--or perhaps downstream from there.  I regularly visit on ebay.it looking at old mandolins and have not seen one there or at the favorite purveyor sites of mandolino antico. Certainly no conclusions should be suggested by this very limited observation.  The history of the builders, shops, marketing, etc. of these old mandolins remains so elusive.  
> 
> Mick


Thanks so much for the article, it's very interesting.  Funny how I am doing the same thing here in Buffalo as they were doing 100 years a go. LOL! And yes I have spoken with many of my mandolin playing friends back in Napule and nobody knows of the De Meglios.  Quite odd if you ask me.  Most old italian men that play have typically mandolins by the luthier Carmelo Catania in Sicilia, even in Napule.  Go figure.

----------


## Graham McDonald

It is possible that we are reading entirely too much into labels. There certainly are lots of labels from Neapolitan mandolin manufacturers from the turn of last century and certainly there would have been lots of small workshops. That doesn't necessarily mean that there was a separate workshop for every label. There are lots of examples from the Chicago instrument industry a century ago of builders making instruments of several brands, and even today I understand one can go to a Korean musical instrument company and order 100 guitars/banjos/mandolins with your name on the headstock and on the label. If Demeglio only seems to exist in Britain, might it not be a brand built/labeled expressly for a British wholesaler? 

I suspect there are lots of old mandolins hanging around Naples. I had a look in a couple of retail music shops during my brief visit to Naples last year and both had a at least a couple of dozen old mandolins hanging on the wall and there is an enterprising person there who recycles old mandolin bodies by replacing the necks and soundboards http://www.oldmandolin.com/  Dave Hynds site contains an interesting listing of Italian mandolin labels and it would be an interesting avenue of research to try to work out possible builders, rather than just labels

cheers

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> It is possible that we are reading entirely too much into labels. There certainly are lots of labels from Neapolitan mandolin manufacturers from the turn of last century and certainly there would have been lots of small workshops. That doesn't necessarily mean that there was a separate workshop for every label. There are lots of examples from the Chicago instrument industry a century ago of builders making instruments of several brands, and even today I understand one can go to a Korean musical instrument company and order 100 guitars/banjos/mandolins with your name on the headstock and on the label. If Demeglio only seems to exist in Britain, might it not be a brand built/labeled expressly for a British wholesaler? 
> 
> I suspect there are lots of old mandolins hanging around Naples. I had a look in a couple of retail music shops during my brief visit to Naples last year and both had a at least a couple of dozen old mandolins hanging on the wall and there is an enterprising person there who recycles old mandolin bodies by replacing the necks and soundboards http://www.oldmandolin.com/  Dave Hynds site contains an interesting listing of Italian mandolin labels and it would be an interesting avenue of research to try to work out possible builders, rather than just labels
> 
> cheers


You make some very interesting points, but being an Italian let me assure you that The Royal Family is not something that would be just randomly placed on something for a unique design or advertising point if it wasn't true.  It is taken _very_ seriously, and even more so when there was a current King in Italy.  As to why wouldn't it be randomly placed there for advertisement benefit?  Simple.  What would be the benefit if no English people understand what "Real Casa" means or furthermore what the italian script means on the label.  In fact until I posted this, no one yet noticed it at all.  The fact is the "Real Casa" wouldn't normally be associated with mandolins or music for that matter, and mean virtually no significance to the non-italians who were buying these instruments.  There had to be some type of connection that Giovanni De Meglio took great pride in.  The problem why we are being so _questionable_ is we are thinking from the standpoint of very modern times, where the world now is so americanized and commercialized.   Italian luthiers took great _pride_ in their work, and surely a true italian luthier wouldn't put some BS fake endorsement on his label that would actually hold no benefit to him unless it was something that was true and he put great pride in declaring.

----------


## brunello97

Graham, you are speculating on precisely what we have been bandying about over the last few years.  Too much similarity between mandolins with different labels, too much variety under a given label. Dave no doubt has had his hands in many of these different labeled mandolins.  But any assumptions have been tempered by the (relatively scanty) understanding of US manufacturers in Chicago and the east coast, so extrapolation to Italy is muy sketchioso. If DeMegilio was consigned for exclusive sales in the UK then the thoroughness of the labeling 'backstory' is to be commended.   I don't think any of the bowl-heads here actually believe that each of these labeled Italian bowlbacks come from their own unique shop, despite the 'fabbrica' included on many labels.  I'd be interested to know what level of local involvement, besides gluing on a label, was involved.  Connecting the dots is difficult if not impossible from this side of the Atlantic.  It would make an enjoyable, if frustrating, research trip from Milano to Roma to Napoli to Sicilia.

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

I will cheerfully admit that I know nothing about the formalities around the Italian royal family, but understand a little about what is required to get a 'By Appointment' or whatever to the British royals, so no offense meant or implied. Perhaps we can be very cynical and raise questions like: 
1. was there ever an actual Giovanni de Meglio making mandolins in Naples, or
2. was the British importer simply bringing in a line of mandolins from de Meglio or an unknown manufacturer and sticking fancy looking labels on them with the royal coat of arms and the rest as a marketing tool working on the hope that no-one in Italy ever found out.

There is a fair bit of evidence for unlabeled mandolins being available to music shops at least. The first mando I bought nearly 40 years ago was a 12 string flatback with the label from G de Liso, Music Dealer Port Said. A few years ago a friend gave me another 12 string mando that was falling apart which I am pretty sure was from the same maker, but without any label. There was discussion here a few months back about those wonderful 'woman in a sailing boat' scratchplates and at least two different labels inside the instruments. There seems to be so little information available about how the mandolin industry in Naples worked a century ago. Were there people who just made scratch plates, as there would have been makers of tuners and strings. Did other just make bodies and necks and let others fit the soundboards? All manner of models of production are possible.

I am slowly working on the next book, an illustrated history of mandolin family instruments, and slowly trying to put together some way of cataloging Italian mandolins.  I am looking at pegheads and scratchplates as a possible approach. I am coming to the US in October to talk to a number of builders and collectors and want to spend a couple of days having a look at the instruments in the Stearns collection in Michigan, which seems to be a little tapped resource for research as well as Nashville and the bluegrass end of things as well as whatever else I can fit into three weeks.

cheers

graham

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> I will cheerfully admit that I know nothing about the formalities around the Italian royal family, but understand a little about what is required to get a 'By Appointment' or whatever to the British royals, so no offense meant or implied. Perhaps we can be very cynical and raise questions like: 
> 1. was there ever an actual Giovanni de Meglio making mandolins in Naples, or
> 2. was the British importer simply bringing in a line of mandolins from de Meglio or an unknown manufacturer and sticking fancy looking labels on them with the royal coat of arms and the rest as a marketing tool working on the hope that no-one in Italy ever found out.
> 
> There is a fair bit of evidence for unlabeled mandolins being available to music shops at least. The first mando I bought nearly 40 years ago was a 12 string flatback with the label from G de Liso, Music Dealer Port Said. A few years ago a friend gave me another 12 string mando that was falling apart which I am pretty sure was from the same maker, but without any label. There was discussion here a few months back about those wonderful 'woman in a sailing boat' scratchplates and at least two different labels inside the instruments. There seems to be so little information available about how the mandolin industry in Naples worked a century ago. Were there people who just made scratch plates, as there would have been makers of tuners and strings. Did other just make bodies and necks and let others fit the soundboards? All manner of models of production are possible.
> 
> I am slowly working on the next book, an illustrated history of mandolin family instruments, and slowly trying to put together some way of cataloging Italian mandolins.  I am looking at pegheads and scratchplates as a possible approach. I am coming to the US in October to talk to a number of builders and collectors and want to spend a couple of days having a look at the instruments in the Stearns collection in Michigan, which seems to be a little tapped resource for research as well as Nashville and the bluegrass end of things as well as whatever else I can fit into three weeks.
> 
> cheers
> ...



Was there a real De Meglio?  Was there a real Stradivari?  Was there a real Jesus Christ?  Hmmm well paper records point us to -- yes! However for all you skeptics, I will try calling the comune tomorrow to see if I can pull out a business record on the De Meglio company from Naples.  This WILL get us to the bottom if it really was a real company or not.

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

I'm not going to bother making the call and request because I just found out some information.  Well first off, De Meglio is NOT a  common name in Italy what so ever and a recent search in the white pages in Italy shows that there are still members of a "De Meglio" family in Napoli.  No English guy would be able to guess such an UNCOMMON name that just so happens to be from Napoli.  There are just some things that can't add up.  An English bloak couldn't guess that name and he couldn't just put a random advertisement of the Royal Family on a label.  It would make no sense and be of no avail to business.  -- If anything a marketing scheme would have some famous person or musician endorse it.  Not some random family that English people wouldn't even know.  And then what English mandolins were made in that period in that style?  I'm sorry but I am taking this a little offensively to downgrade not only my instrument but a piece of _history_ from my hometown.  The bracing and construction is that of a Neapolitan instrument.  Whether the De Meglio company had anything to do with the Royal Family is one thing, but to deny the fact that it's a mandolin made in Naples is absurd.

----------


## Graham McDonald

My sincere apologies if anything I wrote implied that the deMeglio mandolins were not made in Naples. I was not suggesting that at all, but raising the possibility that the 'deMeglio' brand might well have been a marketing idea by a British wholesaler rather than simply a Neapolitan family, who may or may not have built mandolins. Other than the crest of the House of Savoy on the mandolin label, little evidence has been offered of any connection between the De Meglio brand and Italian royalty in the late 19th century, and as you pointed out before, falsely claiming a royal warrant for your products could get you into trouble. An alternative explanation is that de Meglio labels were added in Britain to impress potential customers. Just an idea which sort of fits the sparse information available.

As Mick pointed out there could be an interesting few months trawling through archives in Italy to find out more about Italian mandolin building.

By the way, do you have a name? It seems silly to address you as MandolinoNapoletano all the time

cheers

graham

----------


## billkilpatrick

i'm reminded of those gold medalions you sometime see printed on the label of cigars and bottled mineral water, from around the turn of the last century ... "gran prix, exposition de havana, 1903." 

to compliment victor's dampening his wick in wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Warrant 

mandolinonapoletano - fabulous playing and a great sounding instrument - complimenti.

great thread - didn't know pizza margherita had a royal connection.  education is a wonderful thing.

----------


## Tavy

> I'm not going to bother making the call and request because I just found out some information.  Well first off, De Meglio is NOT a  common name in Italy what so ever and a recent search in the white pages in Italy shows that there are still members of a "De Meglio" family in Napoli.  No English guy would be able to guess such an UNCOMMON name that just so happens to be from Napoli.  There are just some things that can't add up.  An English bloak couldn't guess that name and he couldn't just put a random advertisement of the Royal Family on a label.  It would make no sense and be of no avail to business.  -- If anything a marketing scheme would have some famous person or musician endorse it.  Not some random family that English people wouldn't even know.  And then what English mandolins were made in that period in that style?  I'm sorry but I am taking this a little offensively to downgrade not only my instrument but a piece of _history_ from my hometown.  The bracing and construction is that of a Neapolitan instrument.  Whether the De Meglio company had anything to do with the Royal Family is one thing, but to deny the fact that it's a mandolin made in Naples is absurd.


I don't think Graham was out of order at all here - I'm sure the instruments were made in Naples (or round about), and I'm sure there are DeMeglio's living there, but the question was whether there was an actual DeMeglio factory/workshop, or whether these were "outsourced" as we would say today.  In a way it matters not: as long as these are fine sounding instruments _today_.  Still this is a very interesting thread - and it would be good to know a little more about how the industry was actually structured "back in the day".  And whatever you say, it is still odd that DeMeglios only seem to turn up in the UK.

Just thinking out loud.... I don't suppose there is any sensus information available from that time?  You know... with name address and occupation?  That would surely settle things  :Wink: 

Cheers, John.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Uhm... I think that the crux of this thread is not so much existential, as it is specific to the original question you raised, MandolinoNapoletano: was the de Meglio firm a supplier of instruments to the House of Savoy? Until/unless some evidence is found (e.g. an inventory of instruments, a purchase order, a shipping bill, some other documentary source), some healthy degree of skepticism is certainly warranted. Skepticism is the researcher's sharpest tool.

We are all grateful to you for bringing up this most interesting topic!

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

I do think our friend M-N is being a bit unnecessarily touchy here.  Following a good deal of speculation on the connections between DeMeglio and the House of Savoy, based solely on a 100 year old label, we have speculation on what else might have been possible given certain gaps in the paper/music/instrument trail.  No one is challenging the quality of the instrument or of liutero Napoletano in general.  The ongoing question is relative to who actually made these fine instruments and if some types of complex marketing deals were involved--no reason to assume that they couldn't have been, based on such examples as Antonio Grauso in the US at the same time.  How many made-in-China mandolins are marketed with 'Kentucky-Tennessee-West Virginia' sounding names?  If you were going to make up a faux Italian brand name wouldn't DeMeglio (or 'De Best' !) have a nice ring to it? The 19th C. was the era of 'The Grand Tour', correct, so Italia-philia was no doubt very high in England at the time.  No one is suggesting these weren't made in Napoli (or weren't made by G DeMeglio himself.) The quality of the instruments stand for themselves (though there is a range of quality of DeMeglios and their 'clones'--whoever made those.....) We've come across some evidence of Catania/Roma cross-stamping/labeling.  How widespread was the practice?  How widespread was it in other markets (Chicago-New York-Boston?)  I suggest a easing off on the take-offense-o-meter to keep the discussion going and keeping it productive.  A thorough search of city records in Napoli would be a very fascinating exercise for mandolin lovers the world over.

Graham, if you come to Michigan to see the Stearns collection, please give me a shout.  It is a great resource.  It would be a pleasure if we might meet up.

Mick

----------


## Bruce Clausen

The kind of scenario we're imagining here has been seen in the classical guitar world in the 1960s, when a Chicago businessman had an outfit building pretty decent guitars in Japan which were then marketed in N. America with labels identifying fictitious Spanish builders (Antonio Lorca, Marcelino Barbero, etc.), with Madrid prominently mentioned.  I do find it 'curious' that every Ceccherini mandolin we've seen has a label in Italian that adds the name of one or another British dealer. But they're very good instruments, and almost certainly built in Naples by SOMEbody.

BC

----------


## Schlegel

The fact that many of the De Meglio clones actually say "systema De Meglio" tends to support the idea that the De Meglio mandolins are the originator of the pattern, at least.  So many of the clones (90% at least) are so completely identical in every respect that one must suspect the possibility that they came from one factory.  Certainly the number of De Meglios makes me think of a family owned factory/large shop rather than a tiny father and son only shop.

Given the general agreement on the consistent high quality of the De Meglios, might they have kept the better mandolins for the family label and sold lesser ones for private labels?

----------


## vkioulaphides

The "price" and validity of royal patronage has also fluctuated widely— and _wildly_. My great-grandfather (a merchant mariner, as were his ancestors, going back perhaps all the way to the Middle Ages) had an imperial patent from the last Tsars, a "vendor contract", as we would say nowadays, as a _provveditore_ of the imperial cavalry: he shipped horse-feed *up*stream, as he would make his customary stops in the Black Sea, Odessa, Sevastopol, etc. unloading the cargo of his sea-faring ship onto barges— a fleet operated by yet another such "titled" merchant. I dread to think what those barges carried *down*stream, across Ukrainian farmlands... Might he may have been the most illustrious Comte de Manure?

So, while I may hail from such _noblesse parfumée_ myself (HA!), I reserve some doubt as to the true significance of royal patronage. Rule over Naples was, to say the very least, hotly contested; even after the unification of Italy, things remained fluid— we know so from accounts by musicians of the time, who had to contend with a myriad local authorities. Thus some hard facts regarding the de Meglio firm would be MOST welcome here. As a former owner of a lovely de Meglio myself, I'd be the first one to applaud the unearthing of some information about this important lutherie. 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> It is possible that we are reading entirely too much into labels. There certainly are lots of labels from Neapolitan mandolin manufacturers from the turn of last century and certainly there would have been lots of small workshops. That doesn't necessarily mean that there was a separate workshop for every label. There are lots of examples from the Chicago instrument industry a century ago of builders making instruments of several brands, and even today I understand one can go to a Korean musical instrument company and order 100 guitars/banjos/mandolins with your name on the headstock and on the label. If Demeglio only seems to exist in Britain, might it not be a brand built/labeled expressly for a British wholesaler? 
> 
> I suspect there are lots of old mandolins hanging around Naples. I had a look in a couple of retail music shops during my brief visit to Naples last year and both had a at least a couple of dozen old mandolins hanging on the wall and there is an enterprising person there who recycles old mandolin bodies by replacing the necks and soundboards http://www.oldmandolin.com/  Dave Hynds site contains an interesting listing of Italian mandolin labels and it would be an interesting avenue of research to try to work out possible builders, rather than just labels
> 
> cheers


Graham,  I understand your skepticism, but allow me to reassure you that these mandolins are true neapolitan pieces.  However, you can not compare italian luthiers with american luthiers.  I reference you to look at the bracing and cut of a DeMeglio.  These couldn't have been made anywhere else but in Napoli due to it's style and time period.  Replica De Meglios have different cuts, and different bracing patterns.  Giovanni De Meglio even got so upset about fake versions of his - he addressed it in his label.

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> i'm reminded of those gold medalions you sometime see printed on the label of cigars and bottled mineral water, from around the turn of the last century ... "gran prix, exposition de havana, 1903." 
> 
> to compliment victor's dampening his wick in wikipedia:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Warrant 
> 
> mandolinonapoletano - fabulous playing and a great sounding instrument - complimenti.
> 
> great thread - didn't know pizza margherita had a royal connection.  education is a wonderful thing.


Thank you so much for the compliments, I have followed you on youtube for quite sometime, and I love the all the unique videos you have.  You have a great tone and beautiful collection.

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

Getting back to the topic guys, we will be able to get down to the bottom of this.  This summer when I return I will visit the comune of Naples for the records.  We will see how it goes.  Italians kept all of these records, surely from 1890 onward(I got my great grandfathers birth certificate extract just a while back from 1887 in a small village) however some got destroyed in the events of World War II, so let's keep our fingers crossed.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Great job beautiful mandolin tones.


Thank you very much -- it means a lot to me, considering your obvious deep immersement in this style and this repertoire as apparent from your clip.  For what it's worth, I've been unhappy for a while with my Embergher version of Speranze Perdute -- it's too slow and the timing is wobbly as it was my first ever attempt to record my own playing of an Italian tune without an accompanist.  I've just today redone it on my 1890s Umberto Ceccherini mandolin -- it's arguably a more Neapolitan tone than either of my previous two attempts, but although this is a very de-Meglio-esque bowlback, it doesn't sound much like the tone of yours (link).  I've also recorded a large batch of other Italian tunes yesterday and today, which I'm about to put in my thread in the Celtic/European folk forum here.

Turning to the topic of this thread (and Ceccherini has some relevance to it, I think), there is a lot of interesting information on the economical and sociological factors of the Neapolitan lutherie trade in the Paul Sparks book "The Classical Mandolin".  Basically, my own reading of the situation is that the distribution of "surviving" bowlbacks now is the outcome of a fairly complex situation, governed by factors of economics and class.  Within Italy, and specifically within Naples, mandolins in the 1890s to 1910s were played by two very different social groups: "working class" (whether urban or rural) musicians playing folk tunes and dances, tarantellas, waltzes, Neapolitan songs, ballo liscio etc, and, quite separately, a big boom in middle class mandolin playing with classical aspirations.  At the top of this boom (and largely driving it with their burgeoning reputation) were the classical soloists, Raffaele Calace, Francia, Ranieri etc, but most middle class players were actually well-to-do women, "higher daughters" and the like.  My impression is that the working class players by and large played instruments coming out of Catania as this was the main source of sturdy honest affordable instruments in Italy, the equivalent of Markneukirchen in Germany and Mirecourt in France (the cheap-and-cheerful Neapolitan shops, I think, mostly served the tourist trade).  This is why mandolin players in that tradition in Naples now  don't have old De Meglio mandolins: their ancestors didn't play them either, they played Sicilian mandolins.

As far as the middle class mandolin boom is concerned, demand grew explosively throughout the 1890s, initially only within Italy, but then worldwide.  Naples itself was an impoverished city following the unification of Italy, so demand for high-grade (and therefore relatively expensive) mandolins within the city would have been limited.  Some makers had such stellar reputations that their products were distributed world-wide and are now found in small numbers everywhere -- they're the ones that are still famous now: Vinaccia, Calace, Embergher.  Others found that they could tap into specific markets which were much more lucrative than Naples, and by far the most obvious one was the UK.  

Britain was a rich country devoted to free trade (thus no import barriers) and without significant domestic mandolin luthiers.  France, Germany and the US all developed a sophisticated mandolin building industry in the 1890s, but the UK did not and instead simply bought them from the source.  One maker in particular had a unique selling point in the UK market, and this was Umberto Ceccherini.  The top classical concert mandolinist of the 1890s was Leopoldo Francia, and he played and endorsed Ceccherini mandolins.  Francia permanently relocated to London in 1895, followed by an avalanche of now lesser-known (but still very popular then) Italian players and teachers -- Sparks goes into some detail on this.  Francia spent much of his time teaching aristocratic ladies, and with the help of the other Italian teachers, amateur mandolin playing spread far and wide into upper and middle class households.  No doubt what we see now on Ebay UK are the thousands upon thousands of Italian mandolins bought by these rich (certainly in Neapolitan terms) British women.

Upon brief consideration of those market forces, it is not particularly surprising that good bowlbacks outside the "Big Three" top tier are now found mostly in the UK: a Neapolitan worker or peasant could not have competed with the buying power of the UK music wholesale trade.  There is little doubt at this stage that every single Umberto Ceccherini mandolin after the mid-1890s or so went to London: every label I have ever seen, or that was ever discussed here on the Cafe has the words "_Sole distributor: Alban Voigt, London_" printed on the label.  I would guess that this was the direct outcome of Francia's endorsement of this maker, and Francia may well have earned a commission from Alban Voigt.  As far as De Meglio is concerned, there is no such direct evidence on the labels, but I note that as far as the visual aspect is concerned, the de Meglio design is very similar indeed to the Ceccherini design (although this is only skin-deep -- the Ceccherini construction is quite different, as is the tone) and I can well imagine that De Meglio also mostly sold to the UK wholesale trade, leading to all those thousands of De Meglios in the UK now, and a lack of them in Italy.

So there is my theory: one third facts (via Sparks) plus two-thirds guesswork.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

A sensible proposition, Martin, from a business standpoint and an economic one as well---given the popularity of the mandolin during  this time period.   Did Italy go through a mandolin playing boom as did the rest of the western world?  Maybe the home market wasn't anywhere near large enough to absorb all these instruments.  Witness all the recent mandolin builders in Japan, Korea and China feeding the rebirth of interest in the instrument in the US.  This comparison is not in many ways compatible: one can't really speak to a mandolin PLAYING culture in Korea or China,  but one of manufacturing ability and low costs. Still, how many Chinese workers can afford The Loar?   Even my cheap Paracho mandolin from Mexico comes out of a historic string playing culture.  

If all those Ceccherinis and DeMeglios were being pumped out for the UK market one might think at least a few ought to have stayed on at home--to compete with the Big Three-on price point alone.  The low end DeMeglios aren't that much higher grade than those cranked out of Catania for home 
use or export.    Your projection viz the instrument and Napoli makes sense but I wonder if there is a different story to be told up in Milano, with a larger middle-class and a large Fabrik (Monzino.)  

If our Buffalo amigo can turn up some real information on his trip back home that would be astounding.  Think how valuable Keef's study of Washburn has been for the conversations around here.   Someday someone will venture to do such a thing for the breadth Neapolitan mandolin as well.  There must be an NEH grant out there for just such an enterprise.

BTW, great conversation, y'all.  (I'm listening to the Napoli Mandolin Orchestra while reading and typing.)

Mick

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> Thank you very much -- it means a lot to me, considering your obvious deep immersement in this style and this repertoire as apparent from your clip.  For what it's worth, I've been unhappy for a while with my Embergher version of Speranze Perdute -- it's too slow and the timing is wobbly as it was my first ever attempt to record my own playing of an Italian tune without an accompanist.  I've just today redone it on my 1890s Umberto Ceccherini mandolin -- it's arguably a more Neapolitan tone than either of my previous two attempts, but although this is a very de-Meglio-esque bowlback, it doesn't sound much like the tone of yours (link).  I've also recorded a large batch of other Italian tunes yesterday and today, which I'm about to put in my thread in the Celtic/European folk forum here.
> 
> Turning to the topic of this thread (and Ceccherini has some relevance to it, I think), there is a lot of interesting information on the economical and sociological factors of the Neapolitan lutherie trade in the Paul Sparks book "The Classical Mandolin".  Basically, my own reading of the situation is that the distribution of "surviving" bowlbacks now is the outcome of a fairly complex situation, governed by factors of economics and class.  Within Italy, and specifically within Naples, mandolins in the 1890s to 1910s were played by two very different social groups: "working class" (whether urban or rural) musicians playing folk tunes and dances, tarantellas, waltzes, Neapolitan songs, ballo liscio etc, and, quite separately, a big boom in middle class mandolin playing with classical aspirations.  At the top of this boom (and largely driving it with their burgeoning reputation) were the classical soloists, Raffaele Calace, Francia, Ranieri etc, but most middle class players were actually well-to-do women, "higher daughters" and the like.  My impression is that the working class players by and large played instruments coming out of Catania as this was the main source of sturdy honest affordable instruments in Italy, the equivalent of Markneukirchen in Germany and Mirecourt in France (the cheap-and-cheerful Neapolitan shops, I think, mostly served the tourist trade).  This is why mandolin players in that tradition in Naples now  don't have old De Meglio mandolins: their ancestors didn't play them either, they played Sicilian mandolins.
> 
> As far as the middle class mandolin boom is concerned, demand grew explosively throughout the 1890s, initially only within Italy, but then worldwide.  Naples itself was an impoverished city following the unification of Italy, so demand for high-grade (and therefore relatively expensive) mandolins within the city would have been limited.  Some makers had such stellar reputations that their products were distributed world-wide and are now found in small numbers everywhere -- they're the ones that are still famous now: Vinaccia, Calace, Embergher.  Others found that they could tap into specific markets which were much more lucrative than Naples, and by far the most obvious one was the UK.  
> 
> Britain was a rich country devoted to free trade (thus no import barriers) and without significant domestic mandolin luthiers.  France, Germany and the US all developed a sophisticated mandolin building industry in the 1890s, but the UK did not and instead simply bought them from the source.  One maker in particular had a unique selling point in the UK market, and this was Umberto Ceccherini.  The top classical concert mandolinist of the 1890s was Leopoldo Francia, and he played and endorsed Ceccherini mandolins.  Francia permanently relocated to London in 1895, followed by an avalanche of now lesser-known (but still very popular then) Italian players and teachers -- Sparks goes into some detail on this.  Francia spent much of his time teaching aristocratic ladies, and with the help of the other Italian teachers, amateur mandolin playing spread far and wide into upper and middle class households.  No doubt what we see now on Ebay UK are the thousands upon thousands of Italian mandolins bought by these rich (certainly in Neapolitan terms) British women.
> 
> Upon brief consideration of those market forces, it is not particularly surprising that good bowlbacks outside the "Big Three" top tier are now found mostly in the UK: a Neapolitan worker or peasant could not have competed with the buying power of the UK music wholesale trade.  There is little doubt at this stage that every single Umberto Ceccherini mandolin after the mid-1890s or so went to London: every label I have ever seen, or that was ever discussed here on the Cafe has the words "_Sole distributor: Alban Voigt, London_" printed on the label.  I would guess that this was the direct outcome of Francia's endorsement of this maker, and Francia may well have earned a commission from Alban Voigt.  As far as De Meglio is concerned, there is no such direct evidence on the labels, but I note that as far as the visual aspect is concerned, the de Meglio design is very similar indeed to the Ceccherini design (although this is only skin-deep -- the Ceccherini construction is quite different, as is the tone) and I can well imagine that De Meglio also mostly sold to the UK wholesale trade, leading to all those thousands of De Meglios in the UK now, and a lack of them in Italy.
> ...


Yeah you make some very good points.  Naples is poor now, but back then it was atrocious.  Many people couldn't afford to eat full meals everyday of the month and had to prepare for a day or so without significant food intakes.  If they had a few pairs of clothes they were lucky.  In fact many men used to wear the same clothes for decades upon decades.  That being said.... It would make perfect sense to export your goods if you could gain a tremendous profit.  Outsourcing to England to middle/upper class homes would signify tremendous wealth in comparison to the regular people of Naples.  No doubt with Calace and Vinaccia being the upper class first choice instruments for most serious mandolinists, who would these luthiers be left to sell to? Regular people.  With an economy _so_ bad, significant price reductions would have to be implemented.  Martin made me really realize it now.  You can see how many neapolitan immigrants came to the USA during that time period.  The money just wasn't there.  It makes perfect sense why De Meglio and Ceccherini would export fully to England.  It makes perfect sense now guys.  The one question is did the business records of Naples survive the traumatic events of WWII.  We will see this summer.  BTW Martin great job on your new recording.  That mandolin is _very_ beautiful.  It does remind me a lot of my De Meglio.  You are right the tone is a little different, but the fact of the matter is the De Meglio is the most "echoy" italian folk sounding mandolin I think ever.  Your mandolin is very sweet sounding.  Great job on the improvement.

----------


## dave17120

What a great discussion!!!
I'm glad James (mandolino napoletano) alerted me to this one........

I have a few things to post this evening, but the first one is de Meglio copyists.....
All of the following makers had at least some of their models that seem to be near enough de Meglio copies.... some actually say 'sistema de Meglio' as mentioned above.......

Fratelli Bellini
Romito and Carbone
Luigi Caserta
Carlo Cristini
Frabcesco Donadoni
Luigi Dorigo
Gennaro Maglioni
Carlo Marazini
Marco Rebora
Carlo Rinaldi
Salvatore Rogis
Francesco Scarpa
and Valapiglia.

I can't imagine all these guys imported de Meglio mandolins from England just so they could copy them.... more later after I've cooked dinner. Regards to all, Dave

----------


## Jim Garber

Dave I assume you are saying that there must have been DeMeglio mandolins for all those Italians to copy them. or else many of these guys could have worked for DeMeglio. Actually i wasn't saying that there were no DeMeglio only that the ones that have come to sale these days on the internet are largely in the UK.

One thing that would certainly help in this discussion would be a copy of Demeglio's patent. I haven;t a clue where to look tho. A search leads me to Italian patents but they go maybe back to the 1960s and that is it. Surely there must be a patent fir his _sistema_.

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> What a great discussion!!!
> I'm glad James (mandolino napoletano) alerted me to this one........
> 
> I have a few things to post this evening, but the first one is de Meglio copyists.....
> All of the following makers had at least some of their models that seem to be near enough de Meglio copies.... some actually say 'sistema de Meglio' as mentioned above.......
> 
> Fratelli Bellini
> Romito and Carbone
> Luigi Caserta
> ...


Wow that's a LOT of copies!  What do you mean you "can't imagine all these guys imported de Meglio mandolins from England just so they could copy them"  Are you rebutting the fact that someone claimed earlier that they might have not been made in Naples?  If so I agree.  How could all these luthiers from Napoli know about this mandolin if it wasn't made in Napoli?

----------


## dave17120

No problem, Jim, I was just throwing in my two-penneth. James certainly was worried that someone seemed to question whether de Meglios were in fact made in Naples....... my self I have no doubt.... at least two addresses in Naples on labels, and least two generations....... and plenty of copyists.

And on that subject....... a couple of photos. I have not been inside all the copyists that have come through my hands..... I only remove the top if I have to..... but these couple of photos seem to suggest to me that at least one of the copyists was NOT an employee whose name was maybe put on less well finished models.
One is the underside of a de Meglio top..... well finished in side and good quality wood. The other is a copyist I guess, Francesco Donadoni, much less well finished inside and out, and much poorer quality wood.

More in a bit, Dave

----------


## dave17120

Hello James, I finally found time to follow up your email........ yes, I am sure de Meglio made mandolins in Naples..... I've emailed a friend in Naples to see if he can find anything out about 'Sistema de Meglio' through the patents..... they must exist in Italy I guess. Dave

----------


## dave17120

I've checked on the online Naples maps, and the 2 addresses that appear on the de Meglio labels, Vico Lungo Gelso 53, (up to arouind 1900) and 14 Piazza Depretis (after 1900) both exist, and are fairly close together in old Naples near the harbour. I have a photo of a different label, but the address isn't visible.
Hopefully I will hear back from contact in Naples before too long.... Dave

----------


## Martin Jonas

I don't quite think that the existence of all these copyists has anything much to say about whether de Meglio served primarily a UK market or also had a significant turnover within Italy.  There's a big difference between managing to get hold of a single specimen to copy, and Neapolitan music shops overflowing with De Meglio mandolins.  Also, the De Meglio family clearly didn't work on their own: Victor has in the past said that he has been told (maybe he can tell us by whom) that the De Meglio shop made more than 10000 mandolin of the model 1A alone in the 20-odd years of the mandolin boom.  There must have been legions of apprentices and assitant luthiers passing through the De Meglio shop, all of them aware that here was a product that was in very great demand and that they had at least a serviceable idea of how to make.  I can see how they wanted a slice of the cake, and I can also see how this must have been very frustrating to the De Meglio family, leading to the ludicrous verbiage on their later labels.  It must have been especially galling to see their brand identity diluted by plainly inferior imitations.  I have a Carlo Rinaldi De Meglio clone, which is a reasonably pleasant instrument and on first glance looks a precise copy, but when seen side-by-side with a real one is plainly much cruder in the detailing and the craftsmanship.

I also note that the one maker that really seems to have sold _exclusively_ to the UK market was Umberto Ceccherini, and there are no Ceccherini clones out there -- nobody clamoured to copy his suspended second soundboards.

I don't have any doubt that most of the labels one sees (and certainly the de Meglio, Ceccherini, Calace and Vinaccia ones) correspond to actual workshops and actual makers, based exactly where they say they were based.  Some of the components may have been bought third-party, though.  For example those unmistakeable de Meglio style scratchplates (also used by Ceccherini in a more filigrane execution) may well have been from a specialised maker doing nothing else.  However, it would have been plainly unrealistic for each maker to develop an independent export trade and a dealer network, meaning that the real power was presumably in the hands of Naples-based agents of the UK (and other overseas) distributors, such as Alban Voigt.  That situation is similar to the one that existed in Germany, where the wholesalers were so powerful and the individual small master luthier shops so disenfranchised that most instruments were made without any sort of label because the wholesalers deliberately wanted to be able to obscure the identity of the actual maker and treat the instruments as a commodity.  The US went the opposite extreme: a small number of very-high volume makers supplying a much greater number of distributors and wholesalers, many of whom then relabelled the instruments with their own names in a perfunctury attempt at suggesting that they had some sort of input into the design and quality of the instruments.  

Martin

----------


## brunello97

I am glad Dave is on the case.......Hopefully, some concrete information will eventually turn-up.  A lot of breathlessness in this discussion and it will be good to have it get grounded.  I don't think anyone was seriously implying that deMeglios were not built in Napoli.  Maybe some jest or speculation to the contrary-related to their marketing in the UK, which has unfortunately caused our OP a bit of unnecessary concern.   To play a de Meglio in person would convince anyone of its Italian origins. As to the list of  copyists, I suggest a go-slow approach in the discussion for two reasons: 1. Are we even sure these labels were from actual 'makers' or are some perhaps from brokers or sellers?  2. What makes a mandolin a de Meglio copy?  That it looks alike (side vent holes, a particular style scratch plate?)   A label that says 'Sistema de Meglio' should be the standard for the moment in my view or we risk more speculation that hasn't necessarily served this conversation all so well.  (But which has certainly made it enjoyable.....)

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

> Victor has in the past said that he has been told (maybe he can tell us by whom) that the De Meglio shop made more than 10000 mandolin of the model 1A alone in the 20-odd years of the mandolin boom.


I did, indeed, and recall that this —unlike my other, free-associative verbiage— was something I actually _read_ in some source— although, of course, I cannot verify the credibility of the source. Let me look, please, and see whether I can retrace my steps. Could it have been Janssens? I am going through his *Geschiedenis van de Mandoline* (The History of the Mandolin) these days in some detail, and at a less-infantile-than-before level of reading comprehension (although my Dutch is still truly rudimentary at best). Let me see if/how I can corroborate my claim of yesteryear; I do recall distinctly that it was not "improvised", but based on some source.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Martin Jonas

Mick,

I don't think it's particularly difficult to identify an instrument as a De Meglio clone: it's a De Meglio if is says so on the label, and it's a clone if it has all of the De Meglio design features but a different label.  These design features add up to much more than the broad similarity of the various Vinaccia-like mandolins of the period, they are straight copycat:

- All-in-one scratchplate/rosette unit with silver/MOP vine inlay.
- String downholder.
- Side holes.
- Tulipwood binding.
- Bridge with brass saddle.
- Nut with brass spacer next to brass zero fret.
- Rectangular headstock with rectangular closed brass tuners.
- Large dots on 5, 7, 10, 12, small dots on 15, 17.
- Tailpiece with four brass string anchors.
- From 1898 onwards, aluminium decorations nailed onto the headstock.

One explanation for this extreme degree of standardisation across mandolins with all these different labels might be the one suggested by Mick, i.e. they were all (or most) made by De Meglio and brokers or wholesellers applied their own labels.  This is what one might call the American business model: Lyon & Healy or the Larson Brothers effectively did this.

I don't think that explanation washes for De Meglio, though: if they made all these instruments themselves, then why add dire warnings against counterfeiters to their labels?  Also, while some of the other-label instruments may have fine workmanship, the ones I have seen plainly weren't made to the standard of properly labelled De Meglios.  I tried for a long time to convince myself that my Carlo Rinaldi was actually a De Meglio relabelled by a wholesaler, but after seeing and playing a number of actual De Meglios I had to sadly wave goodbye to that comforting notion. There may not have been an actual Carlo Rinaldi, but I don't think it was a pseudonym for De Meglio.

While we're discussing them, another mystery is what precisely the model numbers on the labels mean.  What is the difference between a model 1A, a model A and a model B -- they all look exactly the same!  I have heard the suggestion that they were tested for tone once completed and graded/priced depending on how good they sounded.  Intriguing notion, but I am sceptical of its veracity.  I don't have a full database of labels against appointments (Jim, Mick and/or Dave are probably better placed), but I seem to remember that the higher numbers, model 2 and upwards, correspond to the fancier inlaid models, a look that I have always thought was particularly ill-suited to De Meglio instruments, with all of the fancy ones looking plain vulgar (unlike, say, the high-end Ceccherini ones which are much more tasteful).

Martin

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

I thought I'd upload a BETTER foto of my label guys.  It's not in bad condition for 114 years old.  I will also translate the whole label.  

" PROVIDERS OF THE ROYAL FAMILY "
KNIGHT JOHN DE MEGLIO AND SON
FACTORY OF PIANOS AND WAREHOUSE OF FOREIGN PIANOS (The second part of this phrase makes no sense in modern day Italian.  It's anyones guess.  I asked many other italians and no one has an idea.  We all think it just means he was shipping out pianos to other countries.)
HOUSE FOUNDED IN 1800

WE CONSTRUCT _CLASS A FINE_ MANDOLAS AND MANDOLINS
DRILLED HARMONIC HOLES AND PRESSURIZED STRINGS ( REFERS TO THE PRESSURE THE STRING TENSIONER PUTS ON THE STRINGS)
GOLD MEDALS AT THE NEAPOLITAN WORKSHOP EXHIBITION
YEAR:1896 MODEL: 1(A) SERIAL NUMBER: 2020
Vico Lungo del Geso 53  ( ROUGHLY TRANSLATED 53 MULBERRY RD)


To those that use a translator.  It doesn't translate directly.  I know it.  Before you shoot me down, I know both languages.  The translation is right according to how vocabulary shifts when changing languages.  When translating I just remembered I overlooked the fact that Giovanni was a Knight.  This is the connection with the royal family.  He was a Knight of the Royal Family.   There is no possible way anyone could MAKE UP this cazzata for advertising.  It's too much in depth.  And then I know EXACTLY where Vico Lungo Del Geso is.  WARNING to POTENTIAL skepticists: This IS HEAVY MAFIA ZONE. IT IS ALSO A NEIGHBORHOOD OF MANY YOUNG GANGS.  IT IS DENSELY POPULATED AND _VERY VERY_ DANGEROUS.   IF YOU ARE IN NAPLES DO NOT GO HERE.  YOU WILL BE  ROBBED AND OR KILLED.  I know the area very well.

That being said it was always a TYPICAL neapolitan poor area.  The spanish started it about 500 years ago, and it's VERY neapolitan-esque.

The questions have been answered.  Giovanni was a knight to the Royal family and a musical instrument exporter in general.   The street address is still there and it is in a typical area where a luthier would be found years ago.   That being said -- I still see you guys comparing Italian liuthiers with some random Chicago american manufacturers.  You can't compare American companies with Italian companies.  American companies had EFFICIENT MACHINES with some man work.  Neapolitans had -- well they had efficient hands in general. 

But still you say " Well it's a big assumption"  Let's consider some more facts. 

"In 1882 Vincenzo de Meglio gathered in 3 volumes comprised of those of Cottrau (A guy that took to publishing some neapolitan songs) in which it takes back all the anonymous popular songs and then those artists of the first part of the 1800s that goes by the title of "Echo of Naples"
Source: http://www.trioaragona.com/storia/il_XIX_secolo.html

This evidence shows that this de Meglio family was HEAVILY involved in Neapolitan song and EXACTLY around the time Knight John de Meglio was making mandolins.  Therefore the assumption that this was a fake-put-on-name or randomly selected instrument made by other makers or warehouses is laid to rest.  This family was heavily involved in the Neapolitan art tradition.
Hope this helps guys.

----------


## brunello97

My hunch is that this thread probably carries on a longer discussion about the de Meglio company than anything in quite some time.  Cudos to M-N for launching it and for all who are sustaining it.  I have a few more apples to roll out for the fairest.  The first is a mandolin a la "Sistema de Meglio" from one Arturo Farini, who doesn't appear on Dave's list, which apparently displays none of the long list of clone traits that Martin has set out--a list which is comprehensive cloning traits enough for me to feel 'Dolly Good' about.  And a couple more (later) de Meglio labels: one that refers to Vicenzo and Giovanni De Meglio (socii)  and one to Vicenzo as successore. Was this Giovanni the knight?  How would we know?  The last one has a lengthy caveat in English and yet another address 14, Piazza N. Amore--which hopefully isn't a place to avoid.   

Lots of interesting mention of patents, prizes etc. that ought to show up somewhere in some records somewhere.  I like the 'fretboard of crystal' description--purple enough for me to acknowledge the De Meglios' marketing skill even if I believe them.  

But as this conversation tightens up, it would be wise to avoid uninformed assumptions viz Chicago builders. L+H did operate at all levels of the market--writing them off as 'machine made' does little justice to their high end work, particularly their  archtop line-which apparently remain some of the most desired mandolins around.  The Larson Bros. shouldn't be too easily lumped in with L+H in this regard--I'm sure Martin is aware of that, if not others contributing to this discussion.  Their shop and production was nowhere near the production capacity of either L+H or, apparently, De Meglio, if Victor's mysterious German source is to be believed.  They operated at a far higher end of the food chain and one doesn't find the broad array of labels seen on low end L+H products.  M-N, the valuable comparison to Lyon and Healy was in regard to their business model, certainly shaped by many visits to Europe and no doubt to Napoli.  The many smaller shops on the east coast operated under different methods and wound up doing work for a variety of 'labeled' companies at least during the time period that our labeled De Meglios reference.  Marketing practices in the eastern US probably weren't all so foreign to those in the UK at this time--which was before the big boom in L+H production.

If De Meglio made pianos--then that would suggest a fairly substantive factory.  10,000 mandolins is a lot of mandolins. If they were a warehouse/distributor for foreign pianos (seems a likely meaning of the description, M-N)  you would expect such a place would show up in records/descriptions somewhere.  When did they go out of business?  Would newspaper or journals have their advertisements? Phone books?  I suppose there are a lot of places to look for clues when in town.  

Keep it stoked, gentlemen.

Mick

----------


## dave17120

I have some feelers out in Naples, so perhaps I'll have a little more information later........

Arturo Farini: I know I left him off the list, he indeed does state he used 'Sistema de Meglio', but the instrument that carried that label bore no resemblance to a de Meglio at all. A digression I know, but interesting nonetheless. Just an advertising gimmick perhaps. Attached are photos of the label (sorry about the quality :Frown: ) and the mandolin it was in. Dave

----------


## vkioulaphides

A few years ago, a denizen of the Café --was it Bob A?-- had bought, or was considering buying a latter-day de Meglio, one from the WWI era, or a bit later yet. I remember the conversation, as it revolved around the general deterioration of building materials: plastic instead of TS for the scratch-plate, cruder metal substitutes for what would have been "German silver", enamel-paste for the fingerboard-markers, and the like. (The same applies, of course, to the Calace firm, and to anyone trying to build things against the calamities of war; much to the suffering of its people, Naples has often had its famed bay and port blockaded by hostile fleets, its trade routes disrupted, etc. All that is self-explanatory.)

The point is that the ultimate demise of the de Meglio shop may be more recent that we may have imagined. And, of course, the more recent an event, the more vivid and substantive the information we may be able to find about it. If, say, we are looking at a business concern that finally bit the dust by the 1920's (or even later), that's hardly "prehistory". We should be able to find some hard evidence along the way.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## dave17120

I have in my possession a short autobiography of Luciano Grimaldi, (1891-1960) a luthier based in Catania, written by his grand-daughter, which says that....
_"..with the advent of fascism, the situation changed. The closure of trade with foreign countries, imposed by the regime, was the beginning of an inexorable decline..."_
The fascists came to power in the mid 1920s in Italy, just before the great depression, when the Italian lira lost a great deal of its value. All this, when the popularity of the mandolin was being supplanted by that of the banjo..... in retrospect, its no wonder such a lot of the small instrument builders suddenly just seem to have ceased production.

Apparently Grimaldi managed to stay in business until WWII, but during the war the factory was obliterated, and while they took refuge in the countryside, their house was stripped of everything valuable. Sadly, I'm sure others must have suffered similarly.

----------


## Graham McDonald

The discussion about the 'Sistema de Meglio' raises the point of what exactly that is. The inside of the soundboard that Dave posted is pretty standard for a bowlback - transverse braces above and below the soundhole and another, slightly angled, brace slightly in front of the bridge. The re-enforcement plate over the centre join below the cant is bigger than others I have seen and the two square plates, presumably to support the string hold-down device behind the bridge are really the only difference in the way they are built. Interestingly the two 'Sistema de Meglio' mandolin pics that have been posted don't have the string tensioner, so that may not be the core of the 'Sistema de Meglio'. The only other thing I can think of might be the amount of arch in the soundboard as it is bent over the braces. This does vary a lot in Italian mandolins from a couple of mm up to 5-6mm, which can complicate the centre join of the soundboard below the cant

I am looking at this from the point of view of a builder, not a player. Any thoughts.

cheers

----------


## Martin Jonas

Graham,

I think the two Farini mandolin with the "Sistema De Meglio" labels posted by Mick and by Dave were posted precisely because they were not typical, and therefore it's a mystery why they are labelled such when to all the world they look like run-of-the-mill Vinaccia copies.  I would think that the Farini labels are misleading and should be ignored for the purposes of this discussion.

My take is that the "Sistema De Meglio" is the sum total of the design features I had listed in one of my previous posts.  Some of this is functional, some is design, and some is somewhere in between (e.g. does the stiffness of the oversized onlaid scratchplate affect tone compared to the smaller inlaid one used by Vinaccia or the assymmetric Embergher ones?  Does the string downholder affect tone?).

It may be interesting to turn to my Ceccherinis again: I have two of them, one with double top and one without, the latter being the one featured in my Speranze Perdute video in this thread.  Both of them have a fair deal of the De Meglio design elements, in particular the large onlaid scratchplate, the tulipwood binding and the string downholder (although the double top one has hooks rather than the de Meglio bar).  However, the bracing and the shape of the bowl are quite different from De Meglio, and there are no side holes.  Consequently, the tone is also quite different between either of the Ceccherinis and a De Meglio, as well as between the two Ceccherinis, no doubt attributable to the presence of the double top.  Effectively, the single top Ceccherini is a halfway stage between the two designs.

I've just looked through some old picture threads to illustrate these points:

- This thread from 2004 shows my two Ceccherinis, as well as photos from Dave's very first ever De Meglio restoration, and has some discussion of repair and design features.  Please ignore the posts by "Finklestein" in that thread: he turned out to be a spoof by some of my work colleagues winding me up.  Also, this was posted during the time when I tried to convince myself that my Carlo Rinaldi was actually a relabelled genuine De Meglio, so the references to "my De Meglio" in that thread are to the Rinaldi, which explains why I considered it to be an inferior instrument.

- This thread has side-by-side pictures of my single-top Ceccherini and my Rinaldi.  As I said, the Rinaldi is much cruder than a genuine De Meglio, but as it copies the De Meglio design very closely, this may also serve as a guide to similarities and differences between Ceccherini and De Meglio.  One intriguing difference is that the Ceccherini has a longer scale length even though the length overall and the neck length are the same, meaning that the cant of the Ceccherini is a centimetre or so closer to the tailpiece than on the Rinaldi/De Meglio as can be seen in this photo:



Martin

----------


## dave17120

Well there is good news and bad news!!

First the good, my contact in Italy says the following...
_"The De Meglio system was patented in 1889.  Giovanni De Meglio was the son of Carlo De Meglio who was one of the main Neapolitan piano makers. Giovanni himself worked as a piano maker. His son Vincenzo patented a new mandolin in 1895."_
So a patent DOES exist for the Sistema de Meglio!

And now the bad news........
_"The patents are in the archives in Rome but they do not have a web-site. I will go there in a few weeks to make pictures of this and of many other patents (such as the one of Calace's mandolyre)."_

I think the only thing to say at this point is......... watch this space....  :Smile: 

And a couple of things with reference to some of the items above....
_"The inside of the soundboard that Dave posted is pretty standard for a bowlback..."_
Sorry to have to disagree with such an august personnage, but....... these are more typical for a bowlback soundboard.... de Meglio has a lot more well finished bracing beneath, and the method of joining the top to the bowl is very particular. Explained below.... Dave

----------


## dave17120

A small contribution to 'what is the system de Meglio'. Besides the extra bracing beneath the top, the top-side join in de Meglios system is different from the normal run of mandolins, and I wouldn't be surprised to see this somewhere in the patent........

Below is a diagram to explain the differences. The first is inherently weak (but cheap and fast to do..!!) as there is only a glue line in one plane, but it glues the top where it is at its most fragile, just below the purfling and edging. The second is a little better as it allows for the edge of the top to retain a little more thickness. De Meglios method has two definite glue lines, in 2 planes. Its not very often I've seen a de Meglio with the top hanging off.... bits of the edging pushed out by struts that have shrunk less longitudinally than the top has laterally, but usually the top is still firmly fixed. Dave

----------


## brunello97

> I have in my possession a short autobiography of Luciano Grimaldi, (1891-1960) a luthier based in Catania....Apparently Grimaldi managed to stay in business until WWII, but during the war the factory was obliterated, and while they took refuge in the countryside, their house was stripped of everything valuable. Sadly, I'm sure others must have suffered similarly.


I had read somewhere that Catania (as well as most port cities in Sicily) were heavily bombed and that the Puglisi factory was also destroyed at this time.  I found this website with some interesting (and frightening) aerial photos:

http://www.reddog1944.com/Missions_T...bat_Action.htm

Dave, that is interesting news viz the de Meglio patent.  I can't wait to see what your friend turns up.  More curiosities at each turn.  A piano-making Knight? Maybe he was knighted for his piano-making abilities.  Apparently in the kingdom there were   "the Chivalrous Order of Agricultural, Industrial and Commercial Merit" according to this site of (not-unimpeachable credentials)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ngdom_of_Italy

The Loyal Order of the Bowl, seemingly has some precedent.

Might Cav. Giovanni have been an earlier ancestor who 'founded the house' in 1800 and whose good name was applied by the later instrument making descendants?  If not him, then what was the relationship between Cav. Giovanni and Carlo, father of Giovanni, grandfather of Vincenzo?  The evolution of the labels helps fuel my curiosity.  Which Giovanni (senza Cavaliere) does the label I posted refer to?  Given all the accomplishments the de Meglios liked to include on their labels, forgetting to include that you were a Knight seems curious.  One would expect the patent of 1889 to be in Giovanni's name as the one from 1895 to be in the son's.  That should prove interesting.

Dave, I am a bit confused.  Are any of the top bracing examples you show from a de Meglio?

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Dave, I am a bit confused.  Are any of the top bracing examples you show from a de Meglio?


I think the one on the left in post #53 is from a de Meglio, the others are not.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

> I think the one on the left in post #53 is from a de Meglio, the others are not.
> 
> Martin


Sorry to have been so lazy, Martin.  I clicked on the images Dave posted and he had labeled the files.  The one on the upper left (with the distinctly carved bracing) is apparently from a de Mureda.

Mick

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> A small contribution to 'what is the system de Meglio'. Besides the extra bracing beneath the top, the top-side join in de Meglios system is different from the normal run of mandolins, and I wouldn't be surprised to see this somewhere in the patent........
> 
> Below is a diagram to explain the differences. The first is inherently weak (but cheap and fast to do..!!) as there is only a glue line in one plane, but it glues the top where it is at its most fragile, just below the purfling and edging. The second is a little better as it allows for the edge of the top to retain a little more thickness. De Meglios method has two definite glue lines, in 2 planes. Its not very often I've seen a de Meglio with the top hanging off.... bits of the edging pushed out by struts that have shrunk less longitudinally than the top has laterally, but usually the top is still firmly fixed. Dave



One word _INCREDIBLE_.  de Meglio was so eager to crearte quality mandolins.  No wonder he wanted to denounce the copy mandolins on his labels.  The way he glued the edges one side and then on going into that slant to secure pressure resistance is remarkable.  I never realized the gem I had.  It's just made me appreciate my instrument just that much more.  Thank you so much for the diagram.  You are an amazing luthier Dave.

----------


## Jim Garber

This is an excellent, ground-breaking thread!! I just voted it 5 stars. There is wonderful information we are uncovering. Thank you, MandolinoNapoletano (James?) for initiating it.

----------


## brunello97

Great diagrams, Dave!  You and Pablo H have a nice way of explaining things through simple clear drawings.  (If I could get my students to be so clear.)  The de Meglio edge joints are as much an area of curiosity as the rest of the company seems to be.  I always assumed the rounded over edge was one of both style and protection from edge damage-the way one might with furniture.   The grain direction runs counter to that in typical binding which makes for a striking appearance.  Do you have any photos of de-assembled de Meglios from your shop?  From photos it seems  they did use edge details similar to all three of your diagrams. Here are some other photos of de Meglio edge joints, the first two being the most curious.  The last (a poor quality image) appears to represent your third diagram in areas where the edging has broken away.  

I just hope this thread doesn't do for de Meglio prices what Eugene's did for Martin bowlbacks a couple years ago :-)

Mick

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> Great diagrams, Dave!  You and Pablo H have a nice way of explaining things through simple clear drawings.  (If I could get my students to be so clear.)  The de Meglio edge joints are as much an area of curiosity as the rest of the company seems to be.  I always assumed the rounded over edge was one of both style and protection from edge damage-the way one might with furniture.   The grain direction runs counter to that in typical binding which makes for a striking appearance.  Do you have any photos of de-assembled de Meglios from your shop?  From photos it seems  they did use edge details similar to all three of your diagrams. Here are some other photos of de Meglio edge joints, the first two being the most curious.  The last (a poor quality image) appears to represent your third diagram in areas where the edging has broken away.  
> 
> I just hope this thread doesn't do for de Meglio prices what Eugene's did for Martin bowlbacks a couple years ago :-)
> 
> Mick



You know Mick I always wondered why the de Meglios would always sell for nothing, like 200 or 300 dollars.  The quality, volume, and echo holds a place of it's own with even the big names like Calace and Vinaccia.  Calaces and Vinaccias sound beautiful, but these de Meglios seem to have their own unique voices for Neapolitan folk in particular.

----------


## brunello97

> You know Mick I always wondered why the de Meglios would always sell for nothing, like 200 or 300 dollars.  The quality, volume, and echo holds a place of it's own with even the big names like Calace and Vinaccia.  Calaces and Vinaccias sound beautiful, but these de Meglios seem to have their own unique voices for Neapolitan folk in particular.


That is a good question, but a lot of bowlbacks still remain happily undervalued (happy, that is if you are a buyer.) Maybe it had something to do with the number of them on the market, or else that folks mistakenly lumped them in with the run-of-the-mill Italian labels available by the score in the UK.  I have a hunch your thread will help change that, so I better get myself one in a hurry.  ;-)  Clearly the nicer de Meglios are in a different league.

M-N, you have spoken twice now about an 'echo' in regards to your mandolin.  The de Meglio I have played (which belonged to our amigo, Victor) had both a brass nut and saddle.  Does yours have either?  Some folks on other threads have panned the brassworks (albeit on other types of mandolins) but I found the sustain remarkably sonorous.  

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

Dave,

I happily defer to your much greater experience in pulling apart many more of these instruments than I have (august personage, indeed  :Laughing:  ) I suspect I have been guilty of having a higher expectation of the standard of construction of the base level/tourist grade instruments as those photos show. In my days as a full-time repairer I always avoided doing anymore than the most basic work on the cheap end of Italian bowlbacks because from the customers point of view it was just not economical. That De Emglio soundboard show what 'should' be the basic level of construction and attention to detail. The others you have illustrated really are just built to fail. Coming from a piano building background where there has to be attention to detail (otherwise they won't stay in tune, the action won't work and they will self-destruct from the tension) could well be the reason Giovanni decided in the late 1880s that he could build a better mandolin and sell them to the English gentry through Voigt. With the beginnings of the mandolin boom in the late 1880s he could see that there was a pound /lira to be made and contacts made through the piano trade could have been used to sell mandolins. Another thought is that the Royal Warrant on the labels might apply to the earlier piano end of the business.

It will be interesting to see what his patent claims to do to mandolin design.

Another question is where did all those mandolin makers come from in the late 1880s and 1890s. Sparkes in _The Classical Mandolin_ points out that by the mid 19th century the mandolin was at a low point in popularity and very much restricted to a local Neapolitan audience and market. Within a few years there were dozens if not hundreds of small workshops making mandolins or at least parts for them. As the vast numbers of not very good mandolins demonstrates there were a lot of barely competent builders and a few who could make an instrument that didn't collapse within a short time.

cheers

graham

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> That is a good question, but a lot of bowlbacks still remain happily undervalued (happy, that is if you are a buyer.) Maybe it had something to do with the number of them on the market, or else that folks mistakenly lumped them in with the run-of-the-mill Italian labels available by the score in the UK.  I have a hunch your thread will help change that, so I better get myself one in a hurry.  ;-)  Clearly the nicer de Meglios are in a different league.
> 
> M-N, you have spoken twice now about an 'echo' in regards to your mandolin.  The de Meglio I have played (which belonged to our amigo, Victor) had both a brass nut and saddle.  Does yours have either?  Some folks on other threads have panned the brassworks (albeit on other types of mandolins) but I found the sustain remarkably sonorous.  
> 
> Mick


Mick you can call me James.  My mandolin does not have either a brass nut or a brass saddle.  I wanted nothing to do with these as I felt they would wear down quicker for how often I play my instrument.   I felt if they got any of my sweat on them (like the saddle where the wrist sometimes go) it would erode quickly, so I had graph tech tusq used on both these parts.  But take a listen to my video that I posted earlier, you can really hear the sustain and echo it gives.  I really think this echo has A LOT to do with the sound holes on the side and something to do with the bracing and the unique way the top is joined with the back ribs.  I think perhaps the way the top is vibrating the pressure off to the sides, it may be adding it's only taste of uniqueness itself.

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

For any curiosities regarding what my mandolin is like, I recommend you to the album of my mandolin.  http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...1&l=b0d859bbd9  I hope this link publicly works like it said it would.  -.-

----------


## brunello97

Ah, James, thanks for the photos.  I had forgotten that you had said you were getting the fretboard replaced. This was for a bit of neck angle correction, right?  Looks like a very good job was done. Always great to see these repair process shots.  Are those stainless steel frets new then?  With these I see also why then the brass would be less desireable.  Is the fretwire the same dimension as the original?  Some folks across the way in the builders section laud the added sustain from the wider frets.  BTW I misspoke viz the brass nut on the Jeff/Victor de Meglio.  It has a zero fret and a brass string spacer, along with the brass saddle.

Mick

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> Ah, James, thanks for the photos.  I had forgotten that you had said you were getting the fretboard replaced. This was for a bit of neck angle correction, right?  Looks like a very good job was done. Always great to see these repair process shots.  Are those stainless steel frets new then?  With these I see also why then the brass would be less desireable.  Is the fretwire the same dimension as the original?  Some folks across the way in the builders section laud the added sustain from the wider frets.  BTW I misspoke viz the brass nut on the Jeff/Victor de Meglio.  It has a zero fret and a brass string spacer, along with the brass saddle.
> 
> Mick


They are just regular stainless steel frets with an average dimension.  I've heard a friend's de Meglio with calace strings, and it sounds the exact same as mine and he has everything all original.  He even had on the string tensioner.  That being said Mick, I am convinced this echo tone from these de Meglios come from those holes on the side and the bracing pattern.   The new fretboard was for a bit of neck angle correction.  The neck is now perfectly straight and I have gotten it checked every so often to see how it's been holding up.  Every luthier that I take it too said he did a fine job.  For all the repair work, parts, mandolin, and shipping from England it cost me about 490 bucks total. -- If this forum would have been a year ago, it would have cost me probably twice that :D

----------


## Jim Garber

James: Who did the work on your DeMeglio?

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> James: Who did the work on your DeMeglio?


David Bruce Johnson at Moseley's Violins did the work on my de Meglio.  He did an absolutely wonderful job.  I highly recommend him to anyone.

----------


## dave17120

With regard to the mandolin top I posted, the first 2 were a de Meglio (left) and a copyist, Donadoni I think. The other four, each jpg labelled, were by comparison, in terms of what is generally more typical underneath the top.

The de Meglio is well finished below, with a thin, curved, central bracing, as opposed to the thick chunks of what I guess must be scrap wood which one sometimes finds doing this job. The lateral braces are also nicely fitted into the linings, which is not really evident from that photo.

I will try to post some more photos of de Meglio edging this evening. Cheers, Dave

----------


## brunello97

Got it, Dave-I see now.  My apology to Martin, I missed Dave's first post when referring to the DeMureda top et al in his second posting of tops.  The competition at the low end of the market seems to have been putting out some muy sketchioso work.  The simple addition of the reinforcing 'plate' above the soundhole (as seen on Vinaccia and Martin mandolins) probably would have saved many an instrument.

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

Since the conversation has come to an instrument I myself once owned, I can speak in more factual terms— unlike my usual, ah... rather _imaginative_ conjecture. Indeed, it has a brass saddle, zero fret, and string-spacer. These are all _original_ to the instrument (vintage 1891), which should allay any fears of wear and tear. I wouldn't worry about that. Also, the tone-quality imparted by these structural elements of the instrument is IMHO a "core" element of the de Meglio sound.

As to the pricing, it must surely have to do with the amplitude of supply, relative to the paucity of demand. While I have not yet had a chance to verify the claim of 10,000+ Model 1A's produced in the company's heyday, the number may have been derived arithmetically, i.e. by the serial (series x item) number. And the plethora of knock-offs can't have helped, either. The bottom line, however, is not the "investment value" of these instruments, but how lovely they _sound_, what a pleasure they are to play and to listen to.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

> David Bruce Johnson at Moseley's Violins did the work on my de Meglio.  He did an absolutely wonderful job.  I highly recommend him to anyone.


Oh well... I was hoping for a good restorer here in the US. Moseley's Violins is in the UK. We bowlheads need some excellent luthiers here who understand our beloved instruments. Now, if we could only get Dave to move, even part of the year.   :Smile:

----------


## brunello97

> Oh well... I was hoping for a good restorer here in the US. ........ Now, if we could only get Dave to move, even part of the year.


Yes to that.  What does the South of France have that the South of (New) Jersey doesn't?

Mick

----------


## dave17120

Well, that's very heartening to hear..... and "what does the south of France have?"... I'm afraid my wife and her family.... three daughters who live in the area, and grandchildren. Sorry guys :Frown: 

Anyway, some photos of de Meglios, but first, I currently have a de Meglio in the shop, numbered 18,836, a model 1 (no 'A' visible) dated 1915........ is that the sort of evidence Victor was looking for?

Interestingly, I also have what maybe a clone, or perhaps a subcontracted instrument, where the label says 'Mandolini Uso de Meglio', with Alban Voigts name on the label. Maybe made in the factory for Voigt by apprentices???

Anyway, a few photos of the de Meglio set-up.
The first photo shows quite well the thickness of the side with lining, and the carefully cut slots into which the three bracing struts and the lower lateral strengtheners are fitted. The second shows the top attachjed, before the edging is fitted, and shows that these are usually quite tightly fitting.
The third is another view, but does illustrate the all-round lining well, something you don't find in many instruments.
And finally, the fourth shows the typical problems with this system..... because lateral shrinkage of the top is greater than the longitudinal shrinkage of the struts, these latter often end up pushing parts of the tulipwood edging off.

The last one even has a bit of a separation of the top-side join.... still, pobody's nerfect!! Dave

----------


## brunello97

Great stuff, Dave, one can see a lot of very interesting things in your photos. The beveled bowl-rim edge is nice, though I wonder about its contribution to the de Meglio 'sound' .   #18,000!  If that refers to production numbers it is extraordinary.   I read in Robert Hartmann's book today that he estimates the total production out of the Larson's shop to be 2500 instruments.  That sure turns upside-down the shibboleth of 'big Chicago factory v. small Napoletano workshop'.   That De Meglio could hold up quality standards at that level of production is what is of real importance.  Just like at CF Martin, it shows you can get it done right at that scale.  

Mick

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

> Well, that's very heartening to hear..... and "what does the south of France have?"... I'm afraid my wife and her family.... three daughters who live in the area, and grandchildren. Sorry guys
> 
> Anyway, some photos of de Meglios, but first, I currently have a de Meglio in the shop, numbered 18,836, a model 1 (no 'A' visible) dated 1915........ is that the sort of evidence Victor was looking for?
> 
> Interestingly, I also have what maybe a clone, or perhaps a subcontracted instrument, where the label says 'Mandolini Uso de Meglio', with Alban Voigts name on the label. Maybe made in the factory for Voigt by apprentices???
> 
> Anyway, a few photos of the de Meglio set-up.
> The first photo shows quite well the thickness of the side with lining, and the carefully cut slots into which the three bracing struts and the lower lateral strengtheners are fitted. The second shows the top attachjed, before the edging is fitted, and shows that these are usually quite tightly fitting.
> The third is another view, but does illustrate the all-round lining well, something you don't find in many instruments.
> ...


These are pictures of the real deal right?  Not the clone.  And wow guys de Meglio was so underrated for over 100 years.  Finally with this forum we're giving the man some respect that he deserves.

----------


## Schlegel

> Got it, Dave-I see now.  My apology to Martin, I missed Dave's first post when referring to the DeMureda top et al in his second posting of tops.  The competition at the low end of the market seems to have been putting out some muy sketchioso work.  The simple addition of the reinforcing 'plate' above the soundhole (as seen on Vinaccia and Martin mandolins) probably would have saved many an instrument.
> 
> Mick


Calaces also have the reinforcement "plate" as well, and I have seen it done on one Washburn, though not on several others.

----------


## dave17120

I Will admit I've never taken  Calace to bits...... mainly because I've never been able to afford one.... even a beaten up one!!   :Smile:

----------


## KristinEliza

A little off topic...but not much...

IT'S HERE!  I have my very own De Meglio in my pretty little hands!  Why didn't I bring a pick to work with me today???  Oh well, I have to teach those high school students 15 minutes from now anyway...

Thank you Victor and Jeff for her safe keeping these previous years...know that she is in good and appreciative hands.  I love that this mandolin has been kept 'in the family.'

Oh, it's sitting there teasing me...just a few more hours...

----------


## dave17120

_"Oh, it's sitting there teasing me...just a few more hours... "_

I may be nuts, but THAT'S why I spend hours putting these old ladies back together again!!  :Smile:

----------


## vkioulaphides

> Thank you Victor and Jeff for her safe keeping these previous years...know that she is in good and appreciative hands.  I love that this mandolin has been kept 'in the family.'


Oh, I am SO happy and delighted that it is you who has thus "inherited" my de Meglio! As you know, I was extremely fond of this instrument, and only parted ways with it simply because I was not playing it. So, via Jeff, it now comes to you. Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

> I was extremely fond of this instrument, and only parted ways with it simply because I was not playing it.


Oh, Victor, I should take lessons from you. Of course seeing how you live in a small apartment with two large instruments and a few smaller ones...

----------


## KristinEliza

> Oh, Victor, I should take lessons from you. Of course seeing how you live in a small apartment with two large instruments and a few smaller ones...


Jim...any time you need to make a little room...let me know!  I'm just starting my journey (if you don't count all those violins, saxophones, clarinets, oboes...)

----------


## vkioulaphides

Indeed, Jim, there's a Greek adage about "taking _pride_ in _necessity_" ;-) It's as you say, my friend. Your collection is the envy of the mando-world...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

> Jim...any time you need to make a little room...let me know!  I'm just starting my journey (if you don't count all those violins, saxophones, clarinets, oboes...)


I will be down to NC and back up my truck into your driveway.  :Smile:

----------


## onthefiddle

Just a quick addition pertinent to the original subject of this thread -  a couple of labels from my little collection, both featuing the same coat of arms. These are from another De Meglio, and a Fratelli Vinaccia. 

As Martin pointed out - Queen Margherita was a mandolinist and a Vinaccia that belonged to her is  (hopefully) currently housed in the V&A in London. To my mind this gives more credibility to the idea that the De Meglio workshop may have enjoyed similar royal patronage to the Vinaccias.

----------


## MandolinoNapoletano

Thanks for the pictures, it's always great to see more documented evidence on the subject.  The fact of the matter is you will see this coat of arms on many mandolin labels because it means it was approved to be sold by their government, which supports my point.  It wouldn't have got the royal coat of arms stamp if it contained fallacies in the label.  Therefore Giovanni De Meglio was a knight and a supplier to the Royal Family, and also to cancel out all the speculation that the label was just stuck on to sell to english people - it _was_ a Neapolitan produced mandolin.

----------

