# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  dating an old Epiphone model Adelphi

## chrisbsc

I have an old Adelphi model A style.  The label reads "Epiphone Masterbuilt Instrument" and the serial number is clearly visible.  I have not been able to locate any good source of information about serial numbers from Epiphone for old instruments.  Any suggestions?

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## allenhopkins

Here's the *"Epiphone Serial Number Decoder,"* where you can _supposedly_ enter serial number and model and get the year it was built.  They claim to go back to 1932 with this.  Now, all the explanation talks about "guitars" so I have no idea if it works for mandolins.  I know _nada_ about Epiphone's serial numbering schemes; I'm just passing this link on as a possible resource.

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## journeybear

I once dated an old Epiphone model named _Adele._ Then I met a Gibson girl and never looked back.  :Whistling: 

As far as I know, the Gibson serial numbers apply to all instruments, or at least that seems to be commonly accepted. Different company, I know, but perhaps the same holds true for Epiphone.

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## mrmando

But Martin had an entirely different numbering scheme for mandolins than it did for guitars ... so who knows? 

AFAIK the Epiphone Masterbilt line is from the 1930s. Photos would help.

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## chrisbsc

Hi everyone.  NO luck with the "decoder" suggested above, but thanks.  THis looks 1930'3-ish  But I can't seem to get any more accurate info than that.  If there are other ideas out there I am still looking.

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## mrmando

Please post photos.

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## johnl

This site has good info on Epiphone serials (use the serial scheme for acoustic guitars).
http://home.provide.net/~cfh/epiphone.html#serial
 If the label uses a gothic-style font, it is probably from the mid to late 1930s. If it is gold and contains phrases like 'Epiphone Banjo Corp' or 'Makers of Art Musical Instruments', it is from earlier. If the label has green or blue trim, it is from 1940-onward. Regardless, please post some pictures if possible!

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## Masterbilt

chrsbsc, I also own a '30s Adelphi. It would be interesting to compare features. I am very interested in the history of the old NY  Epiphone instruments. Posting the serial number, and photos would really help, also the type of label.

(p.s. my first post after joining this great forum recently...)

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## johnl

Welcome to the Cafe, Masterbilt! The best source I know of for info on the NewYork-era Epiphones is Fisch and Fred's _House of Stathopoulo_. It's out of print, but copies turn up on ebay somewhat regularly. It's the best source for info on the guitars, but sadly doesn't cover the banjos in much detail. 
I, too, own an early thirties' Adelphi; I'll try to get some pics posted.

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## Masterbilt

John, I have the wonderful book by Fisch & Fred - still the best source on the old NY Epiphones, especially guitars. Nice photos of a 1937 Adelphi and the early non-scroll Windsor David Grisman used on Tone Poems II. The texts on mandolins more or less summarize the descriptions and pictures of the period Epiphone catalogs. I guess the authors didn't have the opportunity to inspect many mandolins to add additional first hand information (from the '30s era only that one Adelphi is listed in their serial number registry). So always interesting to hear about some "real" instruments and see info and pictures ... I will try to post pictures of mine.

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## eastmountain

> I once dated an old Epiphone model named _Adele._ Then I met a Gibson girl and never looked back.


Dating them is fine, but remember, journeybear, it is impolite to ask a lady how old she is.  :Whistling:

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## bamboone

I too have an Adelphi mandolin, and I have previously owned a couple 2-point Strands. I'm not sure how to attach pics here, so I'll just provide links: http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...i/P1010076.jpg , http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...i/P1010072.jpg , http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...i/P1010073.jpg , http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...i/P1010075.jpg . You'll note that the label in mine has the bright green border (and it says 'Guaranteed' in the largest font), and that the dip in the end of the head stock is in the center: these features date to 1939-1942 (mine's a 1940). If your label says 'Masterbilt', I'd guess that you have a brown paper label with black lettering, and that the dip in your headstock would be offset towards the treble side: this would be 1934-1938 (although some instruments retain these features in 1939). If your Adelphi was made prior to 1934, the label would be a silver oval, and would not mention the model name (also, the serial number would not be on the label, but would instead be stamped into the wood next to it).

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## John Rosett

Here's a picture of an Epiphone Rivoli mandolin that I used to own. A good friend of mine has it now. The serial number is 173xx.

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## John Rosett

Here's a picture of my 1944 Zenith archtop guitar. The serial number is 51744, but the peghead inlay is the same. In Gruhn Guide To Vintage Guitars, They list 1944 serial number as "19000's to 20000's", and "50000's to 52000's". I guess that the Rivoli I posted is from 1941.

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## Masterbilt

Great to see these pictures...

Adelphi model: From what I know only the early Strand and higher models had the asymmetric dip headstock. The c. 1932 version Adelphi had a headstock with a softly rounded peak, with Epiphone+Masterbilt banners, model name in between. By c. 1934 the rounded peak got more pronounced, with a banner logo/Masterbilt decal like the Olympic guitar. By c. 1935 there was a script logo with "tail" decal. In c. 1939 the headsock changed to the center dip style. 
Also all the early Epi mandolins (like their archtop guitars) had 3-segment f-holes, they changed to "cello" style f-holes in c. 1935. The pickguard shape and color also changed over time.
I noticed that the mandolin pictures in the mid-30s Epiphone catalogs weren't updated (they kept showing the first ones) until the 1939 catalog. Also the books by Fisch/Fred or Gruhn don't seem to be fully reliable/complete regarding the details about the earliest Epi mandolins (no wonder since these are rather rare).

Now here some pictures of mine - it's an odd bird in some details...:

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## bamboone

While we're on the subject of vintage Epiphones, I also have a 1934 Epiphone Hollywood Masterbilt archtop tenor guitar (the tenor version of the Epiphone Triumph: I have scoured the internet a found evidence of one other surviving Hollywood in some old bb posts. I have emailed 2 former owners (Peter Mix, and a sheriff whom I have forgotten his name), but neither of them know the instrument's current whereabouts. I am restoring mine, and I need a straight-on pic of the headstock. Do any of you possibly have it (or know who does)? I have also tried to get a straight-on pic of Harry West's 2-point banner headstock Strand mando (which should be the same size and shape), but his instrument tech never returns my emails...

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## Masterbilt

Bamboone - in the early '30s Epiphone kept changing the headstock shape and style of the Triumph model - possibly these changes also applied to the Hollywood as the Triumph's tenor version (although not quite sure). Has yours got the asymmetric dip or rounded peak headstock shape? Knowing the serial number would also help to narrow down the vintage correct features.

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## johnl

Hello, Bamboone; I have a 1932 (serial 52xx) Hollywood that has a headstock layout very similar to the Harry West Strand. I'll try to get some pics up this weekend to see if that's what you're after. 

But Masterbilt is right, 1934 is a pretty crazy year for Epi headstocks (the 2nd pic is a '34 Triumph):
  
(pics from archtop.com and AcousticMusic.org)

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## Masterbilt

BTW the mandolin pictured I my post above has s/n 5164 stamped on the inside back - actually the lowest s/n Epi mandolin I have heard about. Unusual is the long scale length of 15" (I have heard of another early Epi mandolin that is the same). A bit of a mystery is the blank headstock overlay (which looks original, but who knows for sure): the first catalog image of an Adelphi has the banners (I have seen photos of examples like that). On the other hand, also the earliest low-end guitars (Olympic and Beverly) had a blank headstock - so... It also has a fancy engraved tailpiece and threaded rod pickguard support as seen in the first Strand catalog picture (all instruments I have actually seen pictures of had the bent metal support). So maybe even an "Adelphi prototype"...?

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## MandoSquirrel

15 inch sounds like a Mandola; 1930's catalogs claimed they made 'dolas & 'cellos, so it sounds like you got one.

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## bamboone

Here a couple pics of my Hollywood. I'm pretty sure I took a series of it by itself, but so far I can't remember where they're at...     http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...d/P1010006.jpg http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...d/P1010002.jpg

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## Masterbilt

Bamboone, that's the early asymmetric headstock with inlaid banners. There are pictures of an Epiphone "Special" tenor guitar on this German website: 
http://www.banjoworld.de/Tenor05.htm



Similar to a Hollywood - maybe "Special" because of the black top?

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## bamboone

I am somewhat skeptical about some of Guenter's stuff: I once bought an Epiphone Dragon banjo uke from him that I'm pretty sure didn't leave the Epiphone factory sporting the dragon headstock inlay. Note the glossy finish on the 'Special' (even on the peghead)? It's been modified.

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## johnl

Here's some pics of my Hollywood. Sorry for the quality. The guitar overall is pretty well worn, and it looks like some work was done to the headstock inlay, but it looks to have a funky bridge and pickguard brace assembly similar to masterbilt's Adelphi (and I assume it's original).

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## bamboone

johnl, that's PERFECT!!! Might I impose upon you to attach to an email a straight-on pic for me (the larger the file size, the better!)? My email address is anthonyhendrix3843 (at) msn (dot) com. Mine has a brown Masterbilt label. Does yours have silver oval label? Also, the back on mine is laminated walnut (Fred&Fisch suggested it would be solid walnut in 1934), but the sides are solid walnut. Is the Hollywood the only Epiphone tenor you have? I previously had a 1941 Triumph Tenor (see pic): I traded a 1940 Epiphone Navarre to Palm Guitars in the Netherlands for it!

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## Masterbilt

Johnl, great looking Hollywood! Some early Masterbilts archtops had a very steep neck angle with high bridge. Interesting to see that same pickguard support. And also the bone saddle in the wooden bridge top - I have seen these on a number of early Masterbilts (of course parts such as bridges, pickguards, tailpieces or tuners often got replaced over the years). 

Bamboone - nice collection! I spot a very interesting Epi Spartan - from what I can see obviously a "transitional" model (from around 1935?): still with the "old" round soundhole, but with the "new" script logo and doric column headstock; is the back pressed/laminated or carved/solid?

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## bamboone

Masterbilt, you obviously love vintage Epiphones with what seems to me to be the correct level of enthusiasm! 1935 transitional featured round-hole Spartan is absolutely correct. I still have that one (it's my favorite 16" archtop): it has laminate b&s. I used to also own this one http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...7B3TQ7MR7L.jpg . Jim Fisch used to also have a 1934 Spartan (stripped top finish and no frets, last time I saw it) which his widow sold to Epiphone for their museum. Being as you've studied up (as you should), here's some trivia for you: http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/P1010018.jpg , and for everyone:

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## Masterbilt

Bamboone - stunning! I have some remarks and questions about some but maybe better discuss this via mail so not boring the folks here - it's a mandolin forum after all...  :Wink:  

Back to the Adelphi discussion: sure a 15" scale is long for a 'dolin, but seems a bit short for a 'dola, also the body size is sort of in between - 10 3/4" wide and the rims about 2" deep. (Btw Harry West's early Strand has the same 15" scale.) Currently I have the Epi tuned down a step to FCGD - works great: I like to use it for songs in B flat (we do often) - now I can "fake" that key playing like in C ...  :Mandosmiley:

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## bamboone

Masterbilt, you're right: I too easily get detoured into broader vintage Epiphone discussion! As apology to the group: a couple mandolins...

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## johnl

Bamboone, that's one beautiful set of vintage guitarage! And seeing that harp guitar (and some of the stuff on that German website) makes me wonder what other Epi stuff is still yet to be discovered. Anyhow, here's some pics of my two early 1930's mandos, an Adelphi and a Rivoli (and, yes, I do have another tenor guitar; it's a 1944 Olympic and it's a killer!).

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## johnl

Masterbilt, that's a fine looking Adelphi! I have a 1944 Adelphi with a blank headstock, but I've always heard that wartime shortages caused that 'no-frills' look (actually, 1944 seems to have been a bountiful year for the Adelphi, as I have seen several on the web). I've never seen a 15-inch scale version (both the Adelphi and Rivoli above have 14-inch scales), but Epi seems to have gone back and forth between 13-inch and 14-inch all through the 1930's.

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## Masterbilt

All fine looking Epis, thanks for posting. Johnl's early '30s banner versions show the evolution of the rounded peak headtock shape: the Rivoli's has a flatter peak like my nameless Adelphi - in theory this would indicate an earlier vintage. It would be great if you could post their serial number (or at least the first two figures) to get an idea where to place them in history...

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## johnl

I think you're correct again, Masterbilt. The Rivoli is 6057 (early 1933) and the Adelphi is 7030, making it late '33. Good observation!

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## Masterbilt

Bingo!  :Wink:  ... interesting to still see the early style banners on a s/n 7xxx - from what I recall most lower/mid range Epis had changed to the engraved "gothic" style banners by then (like the Zenith model in post #18). And a few s/n later the Adelphi seems to have adopted the plain headstock and decal logo of the Olympic archtop - as these pictures of s/n 7477 show:



These pictures are linked from an Adelphi currently for sale at Bernunzio's: http://bernunzio.com/products/1116604# (no affiliation). Btw if you look closely at the photos you may notice the somewhat odd shape of the segmented f-holes. There is an explanation for this: I have information that this instrument was retopped a few years ago (after a severe damage). Unfortunately this fact is not mentioned by the current seller... :Frown:

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## johnl

I'm suspicious of that pickguard, too; the placement of the support arm doesn't look right. And if that's a compensated saddle... 
But I do like that headstock decal; I think that's the one on top of David Rawlings' Olympic.
I remember awhile back there was another Adelphi with a new top listed on ebay. The seller was the person who retopped it (he put a black finish on it; looked really cool), and he made it clear in the listing that the top was not original. Sometime later I saw the same mandolin for sale from a different seller; no mention of the new top. Sad...

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## Masterbilt

Johnl - correct, that pickguard is indeed non-original.

I also like the Masterbilt decal ... it was used on the Olympic c. 1933-1935. 
Here the headstock of my c. '33 Olympic. Note the celluloid verneer. 
Dave Rawling's somewhat later example seems to have the same decal on a wood veneer.

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## julianvincent

Are you still looking for your headstock photo?  I have an Epiphone Hollywood Masterbilt in more or less mint condition (i.e. the varnish is a bit scratched here and there, but it has original frets, is unwarped or broken, etc) ser. 5095 which puts it a bit older than yours.  I've had a number of tenor guitars over the years, but this is by far the best.  Perfect fretting and intonation (though the bridge was wrongly fitted when I got it) and glorious tone (I tune it like a mandola - GDAE.  It doesn't really seem to work with tenor banjo tuning - CGDA - which makes it shriek and doesn't exploit its richness of tone).  Let me know if you need pix.




> While we're on the subject of vintage Epiphones, I also have a 1934 Epiphone Hollywood Masterbilt archtop tenor guitar (the tenor version of the Epiphone Triumph: I have scoured the internet a found evidence of one other surviving Hollywood in some old bb posts. I have emailed 2 former owners (Peter Mix, and a sheriff whom I have forgotten his name), but neither of them know the instrument's current whereabouts. I am restoring mine, and I need a straight-on pic of the headstock. Do any of you possibly have it (or know who does)? I have also tried to get a straight-on pic of Harry West's 2-point banner headstock Strand mando (which should be the same size and shape), but his instrument tech never returns my emails...

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## Masterbilt

julianvincent, welcome - we all need your pix  :Smile:  - please post...!

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## Masterbilt

What we haven't discussed yet: How do your old Epiphone Adelphi, Rivoli, Strand, Windsor ... mandolin(s) play and sound? How do they compare to Gibsons? 
What music styles do you use them for?

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## Masterbilt

Gruhn has an early Adelphi (no affiliation) - version with high peak headstock and "Olympic" style decal. Also a rather long scale. Nice!

---quote ---
MF7884 Epiphone	Adelphi
1933	VG+, early model with Epiphone Banjo Corp., Long Island City label, A-style, f-holes, 14 1/2" scale, fine sound, gig bag	$1,500.00

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## johnl

Nice looking mandolin! And I'd love to hear it, since Gruhn's added 'fine sound' to the description (I like my old Adelphi, but I don't think I'd use 'fine sound' to describe the tone, heh-heh).

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## Masterbilt

> since Gruhn's added 'fine sound' to the description


When Gruhn adds a comment on sound it's usually rather serious, unlike other dealers.

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## mrmando

Is that "fine" as in "an exceptionally fine wine of highest quality," or "fine" as in "No, really, you look fine in that dress"?

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## John Rosett

> Is that "fine" as in "an exceptionally fine wine of highest quality," or "fine" as in "No, really, you look fine in that dress"?


Does this mandolin make my tone sound fat?

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