# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Classical mandolins and more

## John Bertotti

Greetings,
 #My thought here is to start a thread as sort of an encyclopedia of what most would call classical mandolins. I have seen here mandolinos, mandolins, and an assortment of instruments that all seem to fit into this category. From gut strung three coursers to many with so many strings I lost count. The people that participate, here is what I'm looking for. A pic with they type of instrument it is, mando and mando family of course. How it is tuned and type of strings gut or nylon or metal. #The region it is from the the general type of music it was used for. As with all things threads evolve. It is not my intention to replace the bowlbacks of note thread but to sort of index what has been. I'm not looking for duplicate instruments just types with physical differences not including ornamentation. I don't know that there are that many different ones and some may look the same but be different in sound. Like a Neapolitan mandolin or heavier German. Thanks all John
I hope this is a good idea. #

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## Eugene

This is a massive topic and one I occasionally used to roll out on earlier incarnations of the Cafe discussion board. #I concocted a wee slide show on mandolin history that I give to elementary schools. #It's probably a little more basic than you'd like. #If you use Powerpoint, I could try to get it to you by e-mail. #It is rather image-heavy and I'm not sure my university server could handle it. #If you connect by phone, you certainly wouldn't want to receive it.

Fortunately, most mandolin types are named for the place where they seemed to originate, killing two of the proverbial birds on your roster with one stone. #There are also fine glossaries in The Early Mandolin and The Classical Mandolin, although they use some terms interchangeably that I would distinguish between. #Much of my personal concept of the nomenclature came out of correspondence with several coauthors towards a mandolin book (the project seems to be in limbo). #Regarding the early instruments, it is largely informed by the nomenclature schemes of Alex Timmerman. #Also, many of these construction types came in various sizes. #I've pretty much stuck to the sopranos here.

Here's a skeletal start. #I've omitted things that predate mandolin-like names (e.g., renaissance mandore/mandora/mandour, quintern, etc.). #Dates are approximate in the extreme with plenty of trickle over. #I'm happy and eager to receive correction and fine tuning. #I know of more images, but this should give a flavor.

Amandorla/Mandola/Mandolino, 4 to 6 gut courses: (g)-(b)-e'-a'-d"-g", ca. 1600-1790
Barber & Harris
Daniel Larson
Federico Gabrielli
Matthias Wagner
Matthias Wagner
Sebastián Núñez
Luciano Faria
Anon. 5-course, 17th c.
Antonio Stradivari, 1680
Giovanni Smorsone, 1729
Jean-Nicolas Lambert, 1765
Domenico Brambilla, 1771 (scratchplate added)
Giovanni Battista Fabricatore, 1793

Mandolino Milanese, 6 gut strings: g-b-e'-a'-d"-g", ca. 1730-1850
Anon., ca. 1730 and Sebastián Núñez (from "Historic mandolins...")

Neapolitan mandolin (early), 4 wound, wire, and gut courses: g (octave)-d'-a'-e", ca. 1740-1850
Daniel Larson
Federico Gabrielli
Giuseppe Tumiati
Alfred Woll
Giovanni Vinaccia, 18th c.
Antonio Vinaccia, late 18th c.
Antonio Vinaccia, 1772
Anon., ca. 1835 (from "Post a Picture...")

Mandolino Cremonese, 4 gut strings: g-d'-a'-e", ca. 1750-1850
Matthias Wagner

Mandolino Genovese, 6 wire courses: e-a-d'-g'-b'-e", ca. 1770-1800
Federico Gabrielli
Matthias Wagner
Anon. (Christiano Nonemacher?)

Mandolino Lombardo, 6 wound and gut strings: g-b-e'-a'-d"-g", ca. 1880-present
Musikalia
Gabriele Pandini (from  Duo Zigiotti-Merlante) 
Anon., ca. 1900
Serafino Casini, 1896 (from "Post a Picture...")

Mandolino Bresciano, 4 wound and gut strings: g-d'-a'-e", ca. 1880-present
Gabriele Pandini (from  Duo Zigiotti-Merlante)

Hooey, this is taking longer that I thought it would. #I'll get to modern 4-course stuff later.

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## Eugene

For some reason, I cannot link directly to documents from Paris' Cité de la Musique site. You can search there for images aplenty.

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## Arto

Bravo, Eugene! Impressive.

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## Jim Garber

As usual, Eugene, an excellent job of presentation. I am looking fwd to your elucidations on the later variants.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

Hi Eugene,

Nice list. I seem to remember that the trick to linking to the Cite de la Musique pages is to actually link to a page with an individual photograph. Lets see if this works:

Smorzone 1729, E.980.2.346

Smorsone 1730, E.2314

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## Eugene

You lot are too kind for this rather shallow sketch. #Thank you, Eric. #I have edited links accordingly. #A few more musings. #The Brescian and Lombard instruments are descended from the Cremonese and Milanese respectively. #The names of the recent derivatives are often used interchangeably with these ancestral forms (including by Tyler & Sparks and in late 19th c. advertisements/literature). #Thus, I think pinning names to these things is still problematic.

...Then there is the "barockmandoline" which is a modern development by German luthiers to ape the original mandolino in playing baroque-era music. #I intentionally did not list images of it with the mandolino.

Barockmandoline, 6 gut courses: g-b-e'-a'-d"-g", present
Albert & Mueller
Frank-Peter Dietrich

In a bizarre twist, Albert & Mueller applied this same early-inspired aesthetic to a modern Cremoneser mandoline.

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## John Bertotti

Eugene wholly cow! Man if that is jut a flavor I imagine your book will actually be encyclopedic. Thank you very much this will keep me busy for awhile. I didn't realize how broad this subject was. John #

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## JimD

Eugene,

Thanks for such a concise resource. Saving this one to my hard drive for later reference..

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## Eugene

Alrighty, I'll try to add a wee bit more. #Really, you could play "classical" music on any mandolin you durn well please. #There are even art-music compositions specifically for electric mandolin. #Solid-bodied electrics are a realm in which I am not well versed, so I won't venture there. #Again, mandolinists at large, please feel free to augment my sketching. #All of what I'll address here is descended from the Neapolitan mandolin listed above, is strung in wire (both plain and wound), and tuned g-d'-a'-e". #Builders in Catania have built and continue to build mandolins in many styles, especially Neapolitan and Roman.

Neapolitan mandolin (modern), ca. 1880-present
This is the modern incarnation of previous Neapolitan mandolins, once again, refined and standardized by the Vinaccia clan.
Liuteria Calace
Federico Gabrielli
Musikalia
Alfred Woll
Fratelli Vinaccia, 1899
Raffaele Calace, 1911

American bowlback mandolin, ca. 1890-present
These were directly descended/copied from the Neapolitan type, and I don't consider the better pieces to be significantly different from the original form. #Some do, so here they are. #You can make up your own mind.
Daniel Larson
Lyon & Healy Co. "Washburn," ca. 1897 (from Bill's Banjos)
C.F. Martin & Co., 1902
The Vega Co., 1908
C.F. Martin & Co., 1908 (from "Post a picture...")
Lyon & Healy Co. "Washburn," ca. 1910 (from Gruhn Guitars)

Roman mandolin, ca. 1890-present
This is similar to the Neapolitan, but with a radiused fretboard, a pronounced "V" neck, and typically with narrower shoulders. #It was developed by Giovanni de Santis and refined by Luigi Embergher.
Musikalia
Ochiai Mandolin
Gabriele Pandini (from Eye Candy: Bowlback Mandolins)
Alfred Woll
Luigi Embergher (from Il Museo della Liuteria, Arpino)
Everything you need to know about Embergher

American archtop mandolin, ca. 1890-present
Quality pieces have pronounced violin-like arches carved into the top and back plates. #These were pioneered by Orville Gibson and the subsequent Gibson Co. #Many modern classical players to play arched mandolins favor those by the Lyon & Healy Co. or reproductions of their classic ca. 1920 style A. #Classical players also tend to favor oval holes, but this is by no means universal. #There are so many current builders, it would be impossible to list them. #Here are just a couple favoring "A" styles, oval soundholes, and/or those off the beaten path.
BRW Musical Instruments
Cohen Musical Instruments
Peter Coombe
The Gibson Co.'s historic pieces
Old Wave Mandolins
Rigel Instruments
Stephen Owsley Smith
Weber Mandolins
Doug Woodley
Lyon & Healy Co. "Washburn," ca. 1920 (from Gruhn Guitars)
C.F. Martin & Co., 1932 (from Gruhn Guitars)

Flat mandolins, ca. 1900-present
There were some earlier flat examples, dating even to the early-mid 19th c. in Vienna (as described by Alex Timmerman), but they certainly weren't common. #Martin began introducing its flat series in 1914. #Many early ones of this generation essentially were like the Neapolitan type, only with flat (or very nearly flat) backs. #Early pieces had canted tops, but later examples are completely flat. #Some will even carry very slight catenary arches, but they will not be so pronounced and evident as those with carved, violin-like arches.
Albert & Mueller
Celtic Cross Instruments
Mid-Missouri Mandolin Co.
Stefan Sobell
Weber Mandolins
Alfred Woll
C.F. Martin & Co., overview
Larson Bros. "Stahl," ca. 1915 (from Bill's Banjos)
from the shop of C.F. Martin & Co., 1919
Weymann, ca, 1920 (from Gruhn Guitars)

German bowlback mandolin, ca. 1975-present
Developed to be big-voiced and noise-free. #They are usually played with a heavy, rubbery plectrum and strung with flat-wound strings. #As I recall the tale (and please correct me if I'm off), it was developed by Reinhold Seiffert through consultation with Prof. Marga Wilden-Hüsgen.
Albert & Mueller
Albert & Mueller
Frank-Peter Dietrich
Klaus Knorr
Musikalia
Reinhold Seiffert (from Neil's site)
Alfred Woll
Alfred Woll

Finally, a bit from what I wrote for the FAQ here:



> Unique designs: There have been several pioneering efforts to improve mandolin construction. These are often cherished by collectors and players, but never became established as standard construction techniques. These include Vega "lute-" (i.e., cylinderback) mandolins, Howe-Orme mandolinettos, Gelas double tops, etc. 
> 
> Hybrids: There have been many efforts to make mandolins more broadly accessible by attracting other instrumentalists. Mandolins have been hybridized with all manner of other instruments. Some of these could be categorized as guitar-like (flat tops with strings fixed to an immovable bridge like Ovations or Crafters), solid-bodied or semi-hollow electric mandolins (those that need amplification for practical use like little electric guitars), banjo-mandolins, National-/Dobro-like resonators, etc.

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## billkilpatrick

dear eugene - 

impressive, as always. 

you say: #"I've omitted things that predate mandolin-like names (e.g., renaissance mandore/mandora/mandour, quintern, etc.)." 

you know i'd like to add charango to the list as well ... but purely out of curiosity, why have you omitted the early, mandolin prototypes?

regards - bill

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## Eugene

Just because John's original request was for "an encyclopedia of what most would call classical _mandolins_." I am a great fan of the earlier, related, lute-like kin, but they were not mandolins. A list of mandolin ancestors would be just as interesting, but much earlier and the nomenclature of things gets really spotty.

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## Eugene

I was also negligent in overlooking Greek mandolins. They are similar to the modern Neapolitan, but they are a bit more heavily built and the top is usually cant-less. They are usually gratuitously adorned in highly decorated scratchplates, much like the modern bouzouki. I don't know when this Greek folk aesthetic was first applied to mandolins. I expect some folks here could elaborate and link to images.

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## John Bertotti

Hey if you guys want to elaborate on older lute like instruments go for it I don't mind. Just more data for the hard drive. There's always something to be learned. John

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## billkilpatrick

that being the case, i'd like to suggest that the charango is also a mandolin related instrument. i'd also like to ask when the first, guitar-shaped mandolin appeared?

i appreciate that this "everything is everything" philosophy is pretty much of a non sequitur but ... what to do? their similarities far outweigh their differences.

has anyone considered taking a look at the linguistic links between the man-something instruments? the dimunitive doesn't function in english like it does in italian but if i made a half-size or smaller mandola, i'd be tempted to call it a mandolino.

tuscans go nuts for the dimunitive. a guest of ours for dinner one night allowed herself a slice of cake but only "un illusione di un pezzetino."

- bill

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## Bob A

When mentioning Roman instruments, it might be well to recall Cerrone and Pecoraro, thru whom the line descends. Cerrone was Embergher's picked successor, and Pecoraro followed Cerrone. On his death his tools were sold to a Japanese maker, who continues the tradition, according to Sparks.

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## vkioulaphides

Welcome back, Bob. It's a pleasure to have you amongst us again.

As for Greek mandolin-builders, I can think of Sakis Mátsikas (a factory, really, not a individual luthier), Karolos Tsakirian, Pavlos Kevorkian, Christos Spourdalakis in Athens, Victor Dekavallas and Manolis Paraskevas in Thessaloniki, a couple more in Crete and Corfu, I think. I am also told that master bouzouki-builder Babbis Kleftoyiannis has been building mandolins, too only to tempt ME, I am sure!  

All this off-hand, of course. I will need to do some homework, come up with some website addresses, etc. 

Eugene's estimate is fair. The "folk aesthetic" is quite lovely, although odd by "classical" Neapolitan standards. On occasion, however, "folk" slips into "kitsch" with rather painful results...

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## Eugene

Ah bill, this business of the linguistics of plucky nomenclature is a tricky one that has been hashed out unsatisfactorily for as long as people have been thinking about such stuff. #Venerable scholars like Galpin addressed it, Summerfield addressed it, Baines addressed it...all from an instrumentocentric way and from a relatively small corner of that domain. #I think the perspective of a proper linguist would prove more enlightening. #I think it likely that all the early two-syllable roots of such things--mandore, pandur, chartar, gittern, etc. _ad nauseam_--and their related diminutives likely share a common mid-eastern source in antiquity. #I can definitely say that "mandolin" in English resulted from the diminutive of mandola. #Much early literature for our little instrument specifies "mandola." #The distinction between larger and smaller came shortly thereafter. #Check out Tyler & Sparks for a bit on such stuff.

If one goes back far enough, all these things are usually considered to have evolved from two groups: 1) long-neck lutes and 2) short-neck lutes. #Odd as it may seem, both the mandolin and guitar are generally considered to have evolved from long-neck kin and the related names seem to imply this. #Short-neck kin served as the ancestors of proper lutes.

On charango, absolutely it is related to mandolins, but only as it is also related to all other necked chordophones, including violins. #I think guitar-like things and mandolin-like things separated from a common ancestor earlier, and those which inspired the charango are more of the guitar-like branch. #This seems to me to be a commonly held view, but I'm certain you know more of charango than I do.

The cladistics of biology are far easier to grasp; all living things are by necessity directly derived from the living things that came before them. #As I've said before, it takes a couple horses to make a horse. #Put a horse and a#donkey together, and you get an obviously intermediary hybrid, the mule. #Nobody is giving birth to dragons and chimeras.

Unfortunately, no luthier is confined to the rules of heredity and can generate chimeras at whim. #Luthiers are free to draw inspiration from anywhere. #There often are no direct relationships evident between intermediary steps, and if you try to concoct a cladogram of necked chordophones, you'll end up with crossing and undefinable or isolated branches.

On "when the first guitar-shaped mandolin appeared," I guess that would depend upon what one considers to define guitar-shaped: waisted profile, flat back, both, etc. #Many early guitars, especially Italian and Portuguese, had a vaulted bowl-like, many-ribbed back along with a waisted profile. #If guitar-like means only the waisted soundboard, I would argue proper mandolins in guitar shape are purely modern, from the Howe-Orme co.'s efforts in the late 1800s on. #However, the medieval cittern ancestor, the citole, was predominantly waisted (of sorts) but shed the waist to become the cittern of the renaissance (an odd little lump is preserved as a vestigial upper bout in early renaissance citterns, kind of the cittern version of the appendix). #The citole's contemporary oval-shaped kin, the gittern, is taken by modern scholars to have developed a waist independently and serve as conceptual ansestor to guitar. #I think Baines wrote a decent, concise description of the citole:cittern::gittern:guitar waist shedding/evolving crossover. #Sometimes such long-neck lute derivatives as citole and gittern are referred to as gitarra Latina (waisted) and gitarra Morisca (oval) after Spain's Alfonso X.

Sorry, have I clouded this all beyond recognition?

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## vkioulaphides

Clouded? Not at all! I gladly second 

[QUOTE]"#I can definitely say that "mandolin" in English resulted from the diminutive of mandola."

Beyond that, linguistics will take you all sorts of places. What those have to do with musical instruments _ad rem_, who knows?

I am familiar with the (current or dated) Arabic root "mndr" for "almond", hence the Spanish (obviously Moorish) "al mendr", preceded by the definite article in the Arabic fashion, hence _almendro/a_ (the almond-tree and its seed, respectively); hence the Italian _mandorla_, all from the vowel-less "mndr". Intriguing but... how much does it tell you in concrete terms about the instrument(s) we actually play?

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## Eugene

One relevant nugget for thought: somewhere I read (maybe it's in Tyler & Sparks) that representatives of the wee mandolino far outnumber their contemporary lutes in collections of historic instruments. Still, look how much attention lute gets in modern early-music circles. Hmmm...

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## etbarbaric

&gt;&gt; representatives of the wee mandolino far outnumber 
&gt;&gt; their contemporary lutes in collections of historic
&gt;&gt; instruments. 

No surprise... lutes burn longer.... :-)

&gt;&gt; Still, look how much attention lute 
&gt;&gt; gets in modern early-music circles. Hmmm...

The lute is popular because it is reasonably well understood. The story of the lute in the Renaissance is well documented with lots surviving music... more quality stuff than most of us will ever play in a lifetime. Unfortunately for our little instrument, much still lies clouded historically. At the turn of the last century there were only a couple of Renaissance sources for mando/re/a/our/ino music and those are now missing... likely incinerated in one of our little 20th-century wars.

Fire Bad! (Frankenstein)

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## billkilpatrick

i understand that it wasn't until the 1930's that people in south america began to show some interest in the charango. considering it had been there - under one alias or another - for almost 500 years, i think you could call that a gross oversite. it wasn't fire that obscured it, more like indifference.

could it be that all diminutive-sized, plucked stringed instruments - ukulele, mandolin, citole, charango, banjo ... the guitar - suffered from "official" neglect because of their popularity with the - ahem - hoi polloi?

- bill

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## etbarbaric

&gt;&gt; could it be that all diminutive-sized, plucked 
&gt;&gt; stringed instruments - ukulele, mandolin, citole, 
&gt;&gt; charango, banjo ... the guitar - suffered from 
&gt;&gt; "official" neglect because of their popularity 
&gt;&gt; with the - ahem - hoi polloi?

Since we're talking about the mandolino in this case, I don't think so. From what I've seen, the mandolino traveled in the same circles as the lute (archlute, and theorbo) and there was considerable "art music" left for it.

That said, it is quite possible that the mandolino has been overlooked by modern scholars because of the naming confusion, and the association of the name with the Neapolitan instrument... which certainly was embraced by "strollers" as well as those in some regional 18th century aristocracies.

Eric

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## vkioulaphides

Soooooooooo, then: What we need at this point in time is a whole lot of _strolling aristocrats_ (in the Brechtian sense, of course).

Dear friends: Do you have YOUR passports and luggage ready?

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## etbarbaric

Just in the off chance that anyone listening will be near southern New Mexico in early October.... I'll be participating in a local choral concert playing a variety of early mandolin types, including some subset of:
- Borlazzi T&V duo (restored original Cremonese mandolin (with cherry-wood plectrum) accompanied by a copy of a 19th-century guitar)
- Vivaldi aria Transit Aetas (singer, copy of an early/mid 18th-century 5-course mandolino, finger-style, accompanied with baroque guitar)
- Mozart aria "deh vienne alla finestra" (singer, 6-course single-strung Milanese mandolin (copy), finger-style, also with 19th-century guitar)
- Mozart songs (singer, 5-course mandolino, finger-style)
- Some misc. lute duos...

.. oh yes... and three, count 'em, 3 reference pitches!

This is all fairly light fare... following the concert's "parlour music" theme... but I'm having enormous fun putting it together given the choice of instruments for the pieces. This is, to some extent, an experiment to see how these instruments work with these pieces in a large modern hall. It is also perhaps an experiment to see how much patience an uninitiated audience has for historical mandolin music! :-)

Eric

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## Eugene

That sounds awesome...but I'll be floating around on Lake Erie and harvesting yellow perch for a bit o' recreation, and that's a great distance from the US SW (and it's been a mighty long time since I've enjoyed some recreation). #I do wish I could hear, hope it goes well, and expect it will. #Is this part of a concert series or just your own effort to carry our wee instruments to the world at large, Eric? #*Three* reference pitches! #Why not settle for one gig-wide pitch in service to convenience? #Why did you opt for the 5-course instrument and not the Milanese in the Mozart songs? #Won't you miss that low g in the final chord of "Die Zufriedenheit?" #Just for my own curiosity, can you fill me in on the repro 19th-c. guitar to be used in the Bortolazzi and the baroque guitar in the Vivaldi?

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## etbarbaric

Hi Eugene,

By then I'll probably wish I were floating around on a lake! :-)

The concert is just a fluke. The choral director is married to my duo partner... and she wanted a little more "color" for this concert. we jumped at the opportunity to showcase some historic instruments with some music related to her theme.

&gt;&gt; Why did you opt for the 5-course instrument and not 
&gt;&gt; the Milanese in the Mozart songs? Won't you miss 
&gt;&gt; that low g in the final chord of "Die Zufriedenheit?

I chose the 5-course instrument over the six-course for the two Mozart songs simply because they fit entirely on the 5-course instrument. In all of the versions of Die Zufriedenheit that I have looked at (2 or 3), there is only a two-note final chord (which seems consistent to me). Sometimes these additional notes creep into subsequent editions based on the editor's intended instruments, presumed plectrum use, etc. I'd be interested to know what edition you have. Anyone have the original?

&gt;&gt; Three reference pitches! Why not settle for one gig-wide &gt;&gt; pitch in service to convenience? 

Obviously any historical pitch selection is a compromise... ours is a mix of presumed historical appropriateness and practical reality. For this concert we're spanning early 16th century (Francesco da Milano, lute duos) through early 19th century (Bortolazzi). Here are the details:

- Renaissance lutes: A-440... I'm no pitch scholar but many/most seem to select A-440 for lutes these days. Some informed folks I've spoken with claim there is ammple evidence for this higher pitch in the Renaissance. Plus... it makes the lutes project a little better in a big hall.

- A-415: Baroque stuff (5-course mandolino and Baroque guitar (an ornate Larry Brown copy of a 1680s Voboam instrument). I generally keep my double-gut-strung mandolinos at A-415 as a maximum. This pitch is a common baroque-era compromise. In the case of the mandolino, it lets me keep gut strings a little longer... and my bridges don't pop off as much as with higher pitch. Olaf Chris Hendricksen (Boston Catlines) claims that pitches as low as A-380 (!) were common in Rome at the early part of the 18th century (those with Smorsone copies take note!) This may be why we can't keep gut chanterelles on our replica instruments at A-415!

- A-430: Classical-era stuff (Cremonese and Milanese mandolins, and 19th-century guitar (a beautiful LaCote copy... sorry, can't remember the builder)). This is another popular compromise for classical-era stuff. We probably could have gone to A-440 but I'm much too nervous about the restored 203-year-old Cremonese mandolin. So far the Cremonese is happy and very stable at A-430... but it had *major* restoration to its original bridge and I simply want to keep things as low as I can (my restorer will simply kill me if I break it!) Plus, the gut-strung 19th-century guitar and Milanese mandolin sound just peachy at A-430.

Best,

Eric

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## etbarbaric

ps - In addition to coping with different pitches and instruments, the interesting challenge to this concert is bringing a wide variety of techniques up to speed simultaneously:

- Both plectrum and finger-style playing
- Both single and double stringing
- Both thumb-under (lutes) and thumb-out
 (mandolinos) finger-style playing

Its been a very worthwhile exercise, if nothing else.

Eric

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Eric,

It all sounds great! And indeed - like Eugene - #I whish I could be there.


Good luck!

Alex.

PS. I´m sure Mozart will be happy to here his songs performed this way!

_Drawing W. A. Mozart © A. Timmerman._

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## etbarbaric

Thanks for the kind wishes Alex. Your drawing of Herr Mozart is absolutely stunning. You are indeed a man of many talents.

Best,

Eric

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## Eugene

I know the Voboam and Lacote models are Larry's standard braoque- and classical/romantic-era reproductions. #A friend of mine has one of each and they are quite nice. #Could the Lacote copy be by Larry Brown too?

On stretching too thinly, I seem to have that bad habit too. #Mediocre as it is, it is my _modus operandi_ to play on both modern guitar and mandolin (not simultaneously, but at least within the same gig) on the rare occasions that I do gig for hire. #I once played on 19th-c. guitar, modern guitar, and the early incarnation of Neapolitan mandolin. #We tuned by ear to each other (maybe at roughly 430) when we rehearsed the few minutes before. #When we took the stage, I discovered that Nancy had used a tuner to retune the 19th-c. guitar without telling me, and she thus had brought it quite a bit sharp from where we had been and had come to equilibreum with the room's environment. #I vainly tried to bring the mandolin up to where she was, but we ended up finishing the whole set with the mandolin still in a state of constant tonal flux. #Bah!

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## etbarbaric

Hi Eugene,

No, the LaCote copy is not by Larry Brown. I'll see my duo partner today and refresh my memory as to its maker. I don't belive the builder is active any more... and I don't think he made too many instruments. Still, this one is beautiful... with stunning bird's-eye maple on the back and sides. Did you perhaps see this guitar at LSA? I can't remember.

And yes... tuning is one of my major paranoias for this gig... among others...

Eric

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## Eugene

Nope, I saw not a single guitar at the LSA, not even in the continuo course! Given your description, Eric, I wish I had seen it.

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## etbarbaric

Hey Eugene,

The maker of Kerry's guitar was Scott Tremblay. And there were actually lots of guitars at LSA... but you know... there's that rule about keeping them under lock and key until after dark... can't have people playing with their thumbs out in the daylight... :-)

Eric

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## Eugene

I might have seen a couple if I'd toughed it out for more than one afternoon there. Again, ah well...

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## Eugene

Well, surrounded by agency biologists and ichthyic professorial types, I managed to win the big perch pool with a _Perca flavescens_ clocking 12 3/4". HA! And how did your gig go, Eric? Hopefully with fewer scales and less mucus.

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## Jim Garber

I just happened on this page. 

I am especially interested in his mandolin categories:



> There are various models of mandolin:
> - the classic Neapolitan;
> - the Milanese ( with a not very deep music box and 6 chords);
> - the Roman (with a curled neck and the capotasto more elevated);
> - the Sicilian (with double chords on the bass and triple in the high notes);
> - the Paduan (with 5 double chords and a small music box);
> - the Sienese (with 4/6 simple chords);
> - the Florentine (with a large neck and 5 types of chords);
> - the Genoese (with the peg shaped like a sickle and 5/6 simple chords).
> The origin of the Neapolitan mandolin dates back to the 17th century; at that time, in fact, the CasaVinaccia manufacturer factory begins the production.


Jim

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## etbarbaric

Hmmm... highly suspect. Note that the same page puts the origins of the Neapolitan mandolin in the 17th century... and credits Pasquale Vinaccia with the invention of the tuning machine.

Eric

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## etbarbaric

Oh... and I just now saw Eugene's note asking how the gig went... back in October! :-)

As I think I summarized on another thread, it actually went quite well. They made a small production DVD of the concert... if I can figure out how to peel off some of the bits I might post them. It will be a while in any case...

Eric

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## John Kavanagh

Another voice of ignorance here. I'm interested in the g b e'a'd"g" tuning. What's the historical pedigree for it? Are there tutors or tablature that describe it? Do we know how it started? 

It's quite a head-scratcher how that third has migrated around in fourths-based six-stringers. It seems intuitive to have it in the middle, like the lute, viol, and vihuela. The history of guitar tuning seems to be that a high a' string was dropped off the 6-sting A d g b e'a' vihuela to make the guitar, and then a hundred or more years later a bass E was added back onto the bottom. 

For several years, until it was stolen, I played and loved #a six-string bowed _pardessus de viole_. I tuned it g c'f'a'd"g" at first, an octave above the tenor viol (or tenor lute, which I also play). After having the instrument for awhile I researched it some and found that the commonest six-string tuning was g c'e'a'd"g". (The five-string g d'a'd"g" was at least as common,)

When I found some solo music actually intended for the instrument, I found the tuning with the 4th string at e' was obviously the intended one - some chords were only playable that way. Most good viol players in the 17th century played the 7-string bass viola da gamba tuned A,D G c e a d' as their main instrument, and treating the tiny pardessus as the top five of that, plus a g" string, must have felt right to them. Once I was used to it, it felt better to me, since bass gamba is my main instrument too. I didn't have to think about transposing a fourth, I just had an extra string on top. 

What's the repertoire for a 4-course e'a'd"g" mando? It seems like a high note for a lowest string - so much 16th-17th music for "miscellaneous treble" uses c' or d' as the lowest note. If you had a period where the 5-course b e'a'd"g" was standard, then I can see adding a low g. #Since the lowest sting on any six-stringer with all plain gut is going to be punky and sound best as an open string, violin g is preferable to f#. Isn't F#Bead'g' an oud tuning? They're thinking more pure melody, or perhaps just more logically, and of course they have wound strings. I bet some of them drop that 6th to E.

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## Eugene

Tyler & Sparks (1989/1992. The early mandolin. Clarendon Press, Oxford) is an excellent reference for all such stuff. #They detail a fair number of tablature sources and sources with tuning charts, from four courses very early on to six. #The text reproduces an "Alemanda" and "Fuga" for "mandola" by Niccolo Ceccherini to never descend below f#'; the same manuscript has a tuning chart for the 4-course instrument. #The archlute book of Filippo Dalla Casa has a "scala per mandolino" that compares standard notation to tablature and clearly is in the 5-course, b-to-g" tuning. #There is plenty of music for g-to-g" tuning as it persisted from the time six courses became widespread in the mid 1700s into the 20th c. mandolino Lombardo...and yes, the third displaced to the bass edge of the range is odd. #The lowest course was sometimes tuned to f#. #For 5- and 6-course mandolini, there is plenty: Vivaldi, Scarlatti, Sammartini, Arrigoni, Handel, Hasse, Hoffman, etc. # ...And your bass viols would make for fine basso continuo too.

I'm not so certain about guitar tuning as some kind of modification of vihuela tuning. #There were 4-course guitars active parallel to vihuela. #Mudarra even wrote for both in his vihuela book. #4-course guitar's most common intervals were, low to high, fourth-third-fourth (i.e., third right in the middle) with basses (or kinda basses given reentrant tuning) added later. #Those early guitars were probably soprano instruments, tuned to a' or so.

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## etbarbaric

Hi all,

The low third on the six-course mandolino seems pretty straightforward to me... ignoring for the moment, the earlier "mandore" tunings. My every-day mandolino is a five-course instrument tuned in straight fourths, and I find it a highly natural configuration. When adding a lower sixth course, the interval of a third would also be somewhat natural to produce the double octave (and thus all kinds of complementary resonance) with the highest course. The low sixth course is rather rarely used, in my experience. At least one mandolino composer requires the low sixth course to drop a half step, but that seems to be the exception.

If I were a biologist (sorry Eugene!), I might even posit that the double-octave config between outer courses is an evolutionary imperitive of some sort for instruments tuned in fourths. They all got there eventually (lute, guitar, and mandolino) but each took a slightly different road.

And I'm interested, John, by your viol experience. As a neophyte lutenest myself, I find it pretty easy to go back and fourth between lute and mandolino given the tuning similarities. Playing a treble on the upper courses of a lute from written notation (rather than tabliture) is somewhat natural for one who plays the mandolino... and visa versa, of course. The viol would be no different in this regard given its similar intervals, as you point out. The Skene manuscript is at least one place that requires tuning the five-course "mandour" "to the old tuning of the lvte" for some pieces... up an octave, of course.

And who would steal a pardessus de viole? Not the sort of thing one sees in a pawn shop every day. Thieves are often idiots eh (or is that redundant)? Sorry for your loss!

Best,

Eric

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## etbarbaric

And speaking of the mandolino Lombardo... I managed to snag a copy of the 1913 printing of Agostino Pisani's little tutor. To my knowledge, this is pretty much the end of the line for the mandolino.

It is a wonderful little book, and very nicely printed.

Eric

ps - Anyone ever hear of a mandolinist named Oscar Natoli?

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## Eugene

Very cool. Congrats! I love the wild-eyed, wild-haired player of Neapolitan mandolin in "Fig. 7." I also like the Italianate cittern head on the cover.

Nope, Oscar Natoli is a new name to me.

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## Jim Garber

Eric:
That is fanstastic. What is confusing to me is that they picture (I assume) one of the authors with a mandolino lombardi and the other with a Neapolitan. I look fwd to hearing more about this book and whether the method is intended for one or the other (or both).

Jim

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## John Kavanagh

> And who would steal a pardessus de viole? Not the sort of thing one sees in a pawn shop every day. #Thieves are often idiots eh (or is that redundant)? #Sorry for your loss!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Eric


They broke into our apartment and took took five guitars, two viols, and some other instruments - they knew enough to take the expensive chromatic harmonica and leave the blues harps. My bass viol was found in a back yard a half-mile away a few days later, but nothing else was ever recovered. What really hurts is that they probably dumped the pardessus somewhere, too, when they opened the violin case and saw something weird and therefore traceable in it - it may have wound up in a dumpster. # #

On topic - what's interesting to me is how tunings "evolve" based on what players are used to. The banjo g'cgbd' tuning doesn't make much sense until you think of the original four-string version: a major triad plus a high drone. The extra string was tuned to c as a way of extending the range down as low as possible (same as the 7-string guitar with a low A) - they've been squabbling about whether it should be a d or not ever since.

When they added bass strings to the lute, they tended to go down by scale steps, partly because of the problem with fretting unwound basses in tune, but also because they were seen as "extensions" to a six-string tuning everyone was comfortable with. (Some logical folks, like Dowland, did use a 7th string a fourth below the 6th.) So with the pattern on the 6-string mando - it makes most sense if there's an existing five-string tuning everybody used: otherwise they'd likely have used the lute pattern. 

My source for the evolution of guitar tuning is Harvey Vinson's _The Guitar from the Renaissance to the Present Day_. I don't know enough about Baroque guitar to insist on it, but it always made sense to me: you take the top string off because it's always breaking, and the bass string off because it's hard to keep in tune, and you want a simplified instrument for strumming chords. Then, later, you want a fifth string, a re-entrant high one, so you can get more chords and more campanile effects. You keep the A-tuning pattern because a lot of people are used to it from the vihuela or the lute. Eventually, you want more bass again, since there aren't so many deep plucked instruments as there used to be; you essentially re-invent the parent instrument, but this time you've got wound strings and you add another string in the bass, keeping the chords the same on the top five strings for people who know that tuning.

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## Eugene

Your story of thievery truly saddens me, John. #My sincere condolences.




> My source for the evolution of guitar tuning is Harvey Vinson's _The Guitar from the Renaissance to the Present Day_. I don't know enough about Baroque guitar to insist on it, but it always made sense to me: you take the top string off because it's always breaking, and the bass string off because it's hard to keep in tune, and you want a simplified instrument for strumming chords. Then, later, you want a fifth string, a re-entrant high one, so you can get more chords and more campanile effects. You keep the A-tuning pattern because a lot of people are used to it from the vihuela or the lute. Eventually, you want more bass again, since there aren't so many deep plucked instruments as there used to be; you essentially re-invent the parent instrument, but this time you've got wound strings and you add another string in the bass, keeping the chords the same on the top five strings for people who know that tuning.


The major flaw I see in Vinson's theory is, again, that that vihuela and guitar existed side by side, simultaneously as independent entities. #If anything, 4-course/4-string proto-guitar-like things may be older than vihuela de mano-like things...but the history and assumptions applied to gittern, citole, guitarra Latino, etc. are really pretty spotty.

While they certainly influenced each other, guitar is not derived from vihuela, but is its own thing. #Thanks to tablature, guitar tuning is fairly well documented dating to roughly the same era of the vihuela books; check out Morlaye in France and Mudarra in Spain. #The former published a number of songs with guitar accompaniment; this implies a renaissance-era guitar tuning of g-c'-e'-a' (i.e., really high pitched and not terminating in high e'). #Guitar's intervals were preserved throughout while its pitch was dropped and basses were added.

You might want to look into:

Tyler & Sparks. 2002.The guitar and its music from the renaissance to the classical era. Oxford University Press, Oxford.

Tyler. The early guitar: a history and handbook. 1980. Oxford University Press, Oxford.

Another flaw lies in assuming there is any real "phylogeny" to be uncovered in the relationships amongst musical instruments. #Luthiers plying their trade are not required to apply the rules of inheritance and evolution to their creations. #Such notions can't really offer any more than occasional, semi-useful analogy. #Every instrument that is recognized by its players and makers as having an identity is its own thing in relative isolation to its "kin:" constantly conceptually interacting with others, but not in a genetic inheritance sense.

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## etbarbaric

Hi Jim,

As to the Pisani method, it is indeed for *both* the Lombardian mandolin and the Neapolitan/Roman mandolin, and there is a major section dedicated to each. What's hard to tell from the photos is that the book is very tiny... but it is hard-bound, and the printing is very nicely done.

There are little musical studies, and even a longer piece or two. Technique is discussed and from a quick glance, it looks like fairly standard Neapolitan right-hand technique is advised (more later when I've had a chance to study it a bit). Larger (Ranieri-style) plectra seem to feature in the photos from what I can remember (I don't have it in front of me as a write). Some of the musical studies seem tailored for the Lombardian tuning... but then, there are some that appear identical between the two sections as well...

One very interesting bit is a listing at the end of the book of other contemporary (circa 1889) mandolin methods. *Many* of the listed methods are specified for the Lombardian instrument. We should all keep our eyes open! I would certainly be interested in hearing of any other Lombardian methods that anyone knows about.

Best,

Eric

ps - There are anachronistic drawings of supposedly historic lutes, etc. in various illustrations in the method. The instrument on the cover is actually a very ornate surviving cittern by none other than A. Stradivari. Historical musical instrument scholarship of the time was not the most informed.

pps - Pisani was, however, well known for writing about mandolin happenings in his own time. He was a member of one of the big "Circulo". There is more info on Pisani in Sparks' "The Classical Mandolin".

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## RSW

I have a copy of the Enrico Marucelli method (3rd edition). It's mostly left hand studies and goes from elementary scales to some good lefthand workouts at an advanced level.

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## Eugene

> There are anachronistic drawings of supposedly historic lutes, etc. in various illustrations in the method. #The instrument on the cover is actually a very ornate surviving cittern by none other than A. Stradivari. Historical musical instrument scholarship of the time was not the most informed.


I'm pretty certain it's now widely accepted that that cittern really has nothing at all to do with Stradivari's shop. There is a bizarre, nicely built reproduction of it by the Lyon & Healy Co. (!) as a 6-string guitar at the Stearns Collection, MI.

I think the drawings (at least those pictured at the auction page) were lifted from old images. That dated 1500, e.g., looks similar in style to Le Roy (1574) and other period drawings.

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## John Kavanagh

> #If anything, 4-course/4-string proto-guitar-like things may be older than vihuela de mano-like things...While they certainly influenced each other, guitar is not derived from vihuela, but is its own thing. ...#Luthiers plying their trade are not required to apply the rules of inheritance and evolution to their creations. #Every instrument that is recognized by its players and makers as having an identity is its own thing in relative isolation to its "kin:" constantly conceptually interacting with others, but not in a genetic inheritance sense.


I concede; I am undone. Most of my reading in organology is a couple decades old, and people learn stuff all the time. I'll look around for the Tyler and Sparks books. Vinson's book does make it clear that the guitar and vihula, (to the extent that they were really separate instruments and not just different names for differnt forms of the same instrument), co-existed for most of their period. But I do not defend Vinson.

It's an excellent point that cross-fertilization is a good analogy for how instruments change; good at least as often as comparing it to natural evolution. I should know better. For instance, I get exasperated with the notion that the gamba is the "ancestor" of the cello in any sense. It makes more sense to think of it as a bowed guitar that came to resemble its cello cousin over the years.

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