# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  Gibson head luthiers

## jochemgr

Can someone point me to who was in charge of Gibson Mandolins throughout the years? Not sure what the correct terminology is, would they be a head luthier or a foreman, or..? I mean the person who would have signed the label, although I understand they didn't sign them for a few decades (1950s-1970s?)

Is there a list somewhere? I searched the cafe and the internet in general but am struggling to find much. I've got the Loar and Derrington years, but have huge gaps in my overview. I'm especially interested in the "middle years" between Loar and Derrington.

Thanks
Jochem

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## jim simpson

A few names come to mind, not sure if Roger Siminoff worked for Gibson or just consulted, Allen Jones (Glenn mandolin) was there, then left, now back but not in mandolin division, & Simeon (Sim) Daley before setting up his own shop in Nashville.

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## MikeEdgerton

This comes up now and again. You have to dig to really find it.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ers-Signatures

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hank

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## trevor

Jim Triggs and Paul Schneider (Summit mandolins) worked there.. I don't know their positions.

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## jim simpson

Mike,
Thanks for digging for us.

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## MikeEdgerton

More...
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...stic-Engineers

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Boge Quinn, 

hank

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## OldSausage

I tried putting all that together, just the signers. It's a bit vague:

Lloyd Loar (1923 - 1924)
Stanley E. Rendell (1970 - 1973?)
Arron Cowels (late 70s?)
Steve Carlson (1983?-1995?)
Dennis Balin (?)
Phil Brug (199?)
Larry Barnwell (199?)
Bruce Weber (?)
Charlie Derrington (2000 - 2004)
Danny Roberts (2004 - 2005)
Casey Sullivan (2005 - 2006)
David Harvey (2008 -)

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Flame Maple, 

GreenMTBoy, 

hank, 

Hudmister, 

Joey Anchors, 

lflngpicker, 

Rush Burkhardt

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## MikeEdgerton

*Carlson says he left at the end of 1993*.

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## MikeEdgerton

It would be good to note that nobody was signing labels after Lloyd left until decades later.

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## OldSausage

> *Carlson says he left at the end of 1993*.


True enough. I was going by this post:




> I had a 1995 Gibson F5L that was signed by Steve Carlson


http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...l=1#post697779

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## MikeEdgerton

Yeah, I get that but I'm thinking Steve knows when he left or at least he should know when he left. When I get some more time I'll see if I can find some more to firm up a few of the unknowns.

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## Mark Christensen

My understanding is Steve Carlson started signing for Gibson in '87 (with exceptions) and left the company in '93, then Bruce Weber for the majority (with exceptions) until the move to Nashville and the founding of Weber etc. The exceptions being Brug, Barnwell and Balin.

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## Bernie Daniel

> I tried putting all that together, just the signers. It's a bit vague:
> 
> Lloyd Loar (1923 - 1924)
> Stanley E. Rendell (1970 - 1973?)
> Arron Cowels (late 70s?)
> Steve Carlson (1983?-1995?)
> Dennis Balin (?)
> Phil Brug (199?)
> Larry Barnwell (199?)
> ...


One comment --  Danny Roberts was signing Gibson Ferns, Sams and Goldies in 2001 -- 2004 and maybe later.

Also FYI -- from about 1969 until 1983 President of Gibson (part of the Norlin Company) signed a lot of Gibson F-5 and F-12 mandolins.

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## Timbofood

I didn't know that Aaron Cowles signed in those "mid-late '70's". I do know that that when the "redesign" was in the works, Bill Halsey and Roger Siminoff were at Parsons St. quite a bit. So, Aaron's signature would have been "'75-'78?" Maybe a bit later. Always something to file in the mental attic!

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## jochemgr

Thanks all for the replies! It appears to be a very unclear area with many exceptions to the rule, like most things Gibson!

Adding everything together from the different threads I come down to this

Lloyd Loar (1923 - 1924)
Julius Bellson (1925 - ?)
Stanley E. Rendell (1970 - 1973?)
Arron Cowels (late 70s?)
Herman Meintz (? -1980 -?)
Steve Carlson (1986-1993) Bozeman
Jim Triggs (?)
Dennis Balin (?) Bozeman
Phil Brug (199?) Bozeman
Larry Barnwell (1994 - 1995?) Bozeman
Bruce Weber (1994? - 1997) Bozeman
Charlie Derrington (2000 - 2004) Nashville
Danny Roberts (2004 - 2005) (signing since 2001) Nashville
Simeon Daley (?) Nashville
Casey Sullivan (2005 - 2007)
David Harvey (2008-)


Roger Siminoff (?)
Alan Jones (?)
Helen Beausoleil (?)
Paul Schneider (?)

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GreenMTBoy

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## Willie Poole

Another question is :  Were all of those people acoustic engineers and checked every mandolin to make sure it sounded like they wanted, or exactly what was the reason for signing labels?   Probably just approving the craftsmanship....

    Willie

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## mandroid

& 1922 and Before?

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## jochemgr

> & 1922 and Before?


Orville Gibson (1900 - 1910)
Not sure who was between Gibson and Loar.

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## Jim Garber

> Orville Gibson (1900 - 1910)


According to Roger Siminoff, there is some doubt of Orville Gibson having much of a role at the factory at all:




> Beyond the sale of his patent, Orville’s contribution to the Gibson Company in the following few years is unclear, but it does appear that there was question about the quantity and quality of time he spent at the plant. Within a short period after the foundation of the company, the Board passed a motion that “O. H. Gibson be paid only for the actual time he works for the Company.” After that time, the records do not clearly indicate whether he was a full-time employee, a consultant, or just an occasional visitor to the factory.

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## jochemgr

Interesting about Orville! Did he sign labels at all or did they just mention his name? I based it on the top tab on Mandolinarchive.com which says "Orville label 1900-1910".

Just found these two:
1981 Jerry Rowland - See Elderly current stock F-5L
1986 Jim Triggs - See Carter Vintage current stock F-5

That brings my rough list list to:
Orville Gibson (1900 - 1910)
Lloyd Loar (1923 - 1924)
Julius Bellson (1925 - ?)
Stanley E. Rendell (1970 - 1973?)
Arron Cowels (late 70s?)
Herman Meintz (1980)
Jerry Rowland (1981)
Roger Siminoff (?)
Jim Triggs (1986 - ?)
Steve Carlson (1986-1993) Bozeman
Dennis Balin (?) Bozeman
Phil Brug (199?) Bozeman
Larry Barnwell (1994 - 1995?) Bozeman
Bruce Weber (1994? - 1997) Bozeman
Charlie Derrington (2000 - 2004) Nashville
Danny Roberts (2004 - 2005) (signing since 2001) Nashville
Simeon Daley (?) Nashville
Casey Sullivan (2005 - 2007)
David Harvey (2008-)


Alan Jones (?)
Helen Beausoleil (?)
Paul Schneider (?)

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## MikeEdgerton

The Orville label refers to labels that had his picture on them. Labels weren't signed before Loar as far as I know. Jim Triggs should be in the Builder's database, drop him an e-mail and he might be able to clear up the dates for you. Roger Siminoff was never a Gibson employee, he was a consultant, I doubt he signed any labels. You could e-mail him as well from his website. I still don't think Allen Jones signed any Gibson mandolins. He did work for Gibson pre-flood building. Prior to that he was building his own Glenn brand mandolins. I know Helen signed Flatirons, I don't know if she ever signed Gibsons. I believe she is still working for Weber, she could probably be contacted as well. Sim Daley is an e-mail away as well.

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jochemgr

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## David Smith

I just got a call from "Picker's Supply" in Fredericksburg, Va. They took in a signed 1998 F5-G with a signed label. I will be going Saturday to take a look at it and might be able to fill in one of the mystery signers from 1998-2000.

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jochemgr

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## jochemgr

Probably signed by Derrington, I just found another '98 that was signed by him. (http://mandoweb.com/Instruments/Gibs...gton-1998/2476) Looks like he started signing in 1998.  Please let me know though, especially if not signed by him.

Thanks Mike for your additional information, much appreciated. I will look up their emails and share what I get back!

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## Timbofood

Orville was the "Guy", without him this site may not even exist. The question I see here is not anything about "Head Luthier" but how many "Acoustical Engineers" had any credence?
Lloyd Loar was an anomaly wasn't he? I am not saying it's a "Bogus" title but, how many other factories had them?
Head Luthier is something else entirely, isn't it?
What accreditation does one need to wear that mantle?
Not pot stirring, I promise!

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j. condino

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## jochemgr

My assumption at the beginning of the thread was that there would be a person in charge of building Gibson Mandolins who is signing the labels. As it turned out that is the case sometimes, but definitely not always. It looks like Triggs and Carlson were signing labels at the same time and so were Derrington and Roberts. The job titles have changed throughout the years, which makes sense. 

So I guess my question now is more three-fold:
- Who was in charge of Gibson Mandolins over the years?
- Did they sign labels?
- Did anyone else sign labels during these years?

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## MikeEdgerton

> My assumption at the beginning of the thread was that there would be a person in charge of building Gibson Mandolins who is signing the labels. As it turned out that is the case sometimes, but definitely not always. It looks like Triggs and Carlson were signing labels at the same time and so were Derrington and Roberts. The job titles have changed throughout the years, which makes sense. 
> 
> So I guess my question now is more three-fold:
> - Who was in charge of Gibson Mandolins over the years?
> - Did they sign labels?
> - Did anyone else sign labels during these years?


Now you are in a totally different world. The guys signing the label are more like Quality Assurance folks plus some. Loar didn't build at Gibson but his influence was felt. There are some historical records with names of plant managers and some employee names but keep in mind that Gibson was a factory and that people did pieces of the instruments being built.

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## Timbofood

Not sure what you are saying there Mike, can you clarify?
Loar was surely(and don't call me Shirley) the man who cast the die for "Quality Assurance" as an acoustical engineer.
Mr. Loar was the designer though not the "Man on the line" at the factory. And, in my mind there is the determining factor with respect to the value of the signature. As none of the subsequent signatory staff were not so noted, how much weight can be given them other than, "Opinionated Luthier?" Or "Talented Craftsman"?
I see it as "A rose by any other name" argument. 
There might be a whole (large) kettle of fish on this subject.
I have been mistaken before and doubtless will be in the future. Signatures by themselves,don't hold much water unless an improvement has been made. 
Not trying to agitate or belittle but, I don't see how much added value "Ferd Berfel's" name has.
I miss Rowan and Martin's "Laugh In"!

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## jochemgr

Just to clarify, with "in charge" I didn't mean financially as it would presumably be a Gibson CFO who at times may not have known the difference between a mando and a uke (Who cares about a few hundred mandolins if you're selling 1000's of electric guitars a year!?)
I meant the person who's in charge of the Mandolin (acoustic?) department and makes decisions for the mandolins specifically, changes in design, approval of finished instruments. I realise now it's a fine line and not always clearly defined. 

Maybe we should stick to who signed the mandolin labels to keep it simpler.

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## Willie Poole

If the person that signed the labels didn`t have anything to do with quality control then what is the big deal about a signed mandolin?

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## MikeEdgerton

> If the person that signed the labels didn`t have anything to do with quality control then what is the big deal about a signed mandolin?


You got me Willie. I have no idea what you're responding to.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Not sure what you are saying there Mike, can you clarify?
> Loar was surely(and don't call me Shirley) the man who cast the die for "Quality Assurance" as an acoustical engineer.
> Mr. Loar was the designer though not the "Man on the line" at the factory. And, in my mind there is the determining factor with respect to the value of the signature. As none of the subsequent signatory staff were not so noted, how much weight can be given them other than, "Opinionated Luthier?" Or "Talented Craftsman"?
> I see it as "A rose by any other name" argument. 
> There might be a whole (large) kettle of fish on this subject.
> I have been mistaken before and doubtless will be in the future. Signatures by themselves,don't hold much water unless an improvement has been made. 
> Not trying to agitate or belittle but, I don't see how much added value "Ferd Berfel's" name has.
> I miss Rowan and Martin's "Laugh In"!


Again, I'm not sure what you're questioning. Loar didn't build the mandolins at Gibson. He may have asked for things that the management then approved for the instrument, the f holes, the longer neck, etc. That could be considered designing but I'd guess there was a luthier with knowledge of building mandolins putting those desired things in place and a group building the instrument. Loar then approved the instrument with his signature and Gibson sent it on it's way. I'm assuming that if he got one that was a dog he sent it back to be reworked but that's an assumption. He signed the labels, he was quality control plus a little more as I stated in my post. What am I missing? If someone wanted to buy a Loar designed and built mandolin they had a chance to when he started his own company after he left Gibson. You can buy a ViviTone mandolin for a lot less than a Loar signed Gibson. I'm sure he was a bright guy that added to the instruments maturity but others built those instruments, his signature identifies them.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Maybe we should stick to who signed the mandolin labels to keep it simpler.


You've got a better chance of identifying them. Otherwise you need some Gibson factory employment documents that probably don't exist. The modern documents probably wouldn't be made available anyway. Joe Spann's Gibson book has some information about what was happening up through the 30's. It's an incredible book for certain information and has changed what many of us took as gospel but I'm not sure how much it will provide for you on your quest.

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## Timbofood

I think we are pretty much one the same page Mike, no, Loar didn't build, he improved the design and was the acoustical engineer. And the label signatures reflected that he had approved each one specifically. 
Excellent point about the ViVi tones too!

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## David Smith

The attached photo is the label in a 1998 Gibson F5-G for sale at "Picker's Supply" in Fredericksburg, Va.  Let's see who signed this instrument.  It's obviously Paul somebody.  What say ye?

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## siminoff

This is a great post idea and it would be wonderful to get all the data down somewhere. But it's going to be hard to connect all the dots as to _who was in charge_ vs _who was the builder_ vs _who signed the labels_. Loar was not a builder, and to my knowledge he was not even "in charge" of mandolin production. During his tenure at Gibson he wore many hats, including demo artist, marketing, training the sales team (from a musician's perspective), and being the company's self-appointed "acoustical engineer." Loar was very focused, highly motivated, and responsible for the design of many wonderful instruments include the F5, H5, L5, as well as the development of the Master Tone (later to become one word) banjo line, and several accessories. You can think of Loar's contributions much in the same light as that of Les Paul, except that Loar lived in Kalamazoo and was at the plant regularly whereas Paul lived in NJ and was to the plant rarely. As Mike E pointed out, I was never an "employee" of Gibson but was instead a consultant from 1973 to 1985 traveling to the plant almost monthly from my NJ home and shop. I had access to the plant, and was responsible for numerous projects - including the launch of the F5L and the Earl Scruggs Banjo line - but never was responsible for any employees. As previously mentioned, Bill Halsey - a talented mandolin builder and fiddle bow maker - lived in Kalamazoo and was a consultant who worked with me on the F5L project as draftsman (his drawings were amazing). Another consultant working with us was Abe Wechter who lived in Kalamazoo, and was charged with seeing that the various stages of development of the F5L (and other projects) were seen to completion at the plant. The mandolins and banjos were assembled in the "old building" in a small area on the first floor by only a few luthiers. All of the guitars - electric and acoustic - as well as preparation of parts and final finishing went through the main plant, adjacent to the "old building." Although Stan Rendell signed some labels, he was company president until 1975 and had virtually nothing to do with mandolin production. During the time I was working on the F5L (1977-1979) there were three mandolin luthiers; Aaron Cowles, Wilbur Fuller, and Dick Doan and each of them built an F5L prototype for the June 1978 NAMM show (the F5L prototype I have was signed by Wilbur). (Aaron was a great builder and I just learned from Aaron's son that Aaron passed away last year.) There were department managers throughout the plant, and at the moment I can see the face of the person who was in charge of the mandolin department in the late 1970s, but at the moment I can't remember his name (I'll post it when I think of it). All of department managers were under plant manager, Tom Fedders who came out of the furniture business and understood cabinets and dressers, but I was always a bit unclear on how deep his understanding was of musical instruments. Within a few months after Rendell left in 1974, Norlin brought in Carl Spinoso to replace Fedders as plant manager. Carl understood less than Fedders about musical instruments and did little more than just oversee things. He was there for about a year and a half, or maybe less, and when he left, Jim Deurloo took over as plant manager until the plant moved to Nashville in 1983-84. Jim was with Gibson earlier, then left to manage Guild, then came back to Gibson. Jim really understands stringed musical instruments, is sensitive to what musicians need, and is an amazing guy who I think of as the penultimate manager. When the plant moved to Nashville, Jim stayed back in Kalamazoo and he and a few former Gibson employees - Marv Lamb included - started Heritage Guitars, renting space in the Gibson's "old building" where they are today. The deal with how Steve Carlson got involved is an interesting and twisted story - and I hope he'll come on some day and tell the story. I'm sure Joe Spann has some info to share on this. I'm sure I'll think of more to add later.  …R

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Bob Bass, 

DataNick, 

hank, 

jochemgr, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Timbofood

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## MikeEdgerton

> The attached photo is the label in a 1998 Gibson F5-G for sale at "Picker's Supply" in Fredericksburg, Va.  Let's see who signed this instrument.  It's obviously Paul somebody.  What say ye?


Paul Schneider. See *this* post.

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## Ken Waltham

Just for the record, Julius Bellson never signed any mandolins. That stopped after Loar left, and was started again in the 70's, as noted in these posts. .....I wonder if there were signatures in the immediate post Loar F5's..would they be much more valuable? I bet they would.
Comments?

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hank, 

jochemgr

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## MikeEdgerton

I don't know. The serial number/FON combination identifies the post Loar instruments and the "unsigned Loars" do command a bit of a premium. Who knows.

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## jochemgr

Wow, thanks all so much for responding. Great post by Mr Siminoff, much appreciated. I love reading this kind of history. Also received a great email from Mr Daley who confirmed he signed labels from 1998 to Thanksgiving of 2001. Quote: _Although I supervised ALL the mandolins built during my time there Charlie signed the Master Model labels and I signed the rest. I also signed 90% of all the mandolins that were build under my supervise on the inside of the top, either up by the headlock in the earlier days or later back by the tailpiece._

That makes the list of label signatories look like this:
Lloyd Loar (1923-1924)
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1974)
Arron Cowles (1978-?)
Wilbur Fuller (1978)
Dick Doan (1978)
Herman Meintz (1980)
Jerry Rowland (1981-?)
Jim Triggs (1986-?)
Steve Carlson (1986-1993) 
Dennis Balin (?)
Phil Brug (199?)
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) 
Bruce Weber (1994?-1997)
Paul Schneider (1997-1998)
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) 
Charlie Derrington (1998-2004) 
Danny Roberts (2001-2005)
Casey Sullivan (2005-2007)
David Harvey (2008-2014)

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## MikeEdgerton

Somewhere here we have a post by Joe Vest, a former Gibson employee that mentions that Sim was the only one signing the underside of the top on mandolins. The other builders apparently didn't do that. I think you should just remove Julius Bellson from the list. The next thing to do would be to identify the years missing.

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## jochemgr

> I think you should just remove Julius Bellson from the list. The next thing to do would be to identify the years missing.


Agree, have edited my post and removed Bellson. Thanks!

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## MikeEdgerton

If you post the years that you're missing (obviously not 24 to 70) and we ask folks that own Gibson mandolins from those years to post who signed them we might be able to fill in the list a little more.

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## jochemgr

I've done a good bit of research, mainly on Google, found a few more details on some of the signatories. Updated list below. Biggest question-mark is Dennis A. Balin, I haven't been able to find any Gibsons signed by him, although I can find Flatirons. Also not sure who signed between 1981 and 1986, although I found a guitar signed by Jerry Rowland in 1984 so possibly he was still signing mandolins back then as well. I could be missing more but there were often multiple signatories at the same time so it's hard to spot the gaps.

Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984)
Wilbur Fuller (1978)
Richard Doan (1978-1980) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980)
Jerry Rowland (1981)
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Steve B. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Dennis A. Balin (?)
Phil Brug (1993-1994)
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997)
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) 
Charlie Derrington (1998-2004) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007)
David W. Harvey (2008-2014) *

If followed by a * I've placed a picture of the label below. If anyone has a picture of a label signed by the others please share!

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E.R. Villalobos

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## Ken Roddick

> I've done a good bit of research, mainly on Google, found a few more details on some of the signatories. Updated list below. Biggest question-mark is Dennis A. Balin, I haven't been able to find any Gibsons signed by him, although I can find Flatirons. Also not sure who signed between 1981 and 1986, although I found a guitar signed by Jerry Rowland in 1984 so possibly he was still signing mandolins back then as well. I could be missing more but there were often multiple signatories at the same time so it's hard to spot the gaps.
> 
> Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
> Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
> Aaron Cowles (1978-1984)
> Wilbur Fuller (1978)
> Richard Doan (1978-1980) *
> Herman Meints (1979-1980)
> Jerry Rowland (1981)
> ...

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jochemgr

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## Ken Roddick

>

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## JeffD

> Mr. Loar was the designer though not the "Man on the line" at the factory. And, in my mind there is the determining factor with respect to the value of the signature.


I think, in real reality, the signature only matters if the mandolins produced under that signature are distinguished in quality. I don't think it matters, today, what the official position of the signer was. If mandolins signed by Count Dracula are consistently great, then the signature has value in identifying great Gibsons.




> Signatures by themselves,don't hold much water unless an improvement has been made.


Yea. I would only add that this is true whether or not the signer had anything, in reality, to do with the improvement.


The other thing that I can't help musing on is that Lloyd Loar would be almost entirely unknown, if not for Bill playing a signed Loar. Mandolins produced under his signature would still have a characteristic sound, but one wonders if that sound would even be appreciated today, if Bill hadn't chosen a Loar.

I guess the point is that Bill didn't sit down and read the resume of the famous Loar, and try out various mandolins and confirm that the Loar signed instruments sounded how he wanted to sound, and then go with it.

Bill may have been attracted to the sound of the Loar, but I doubt even that. The match up was probably pure happenstance. If Bill had built bluegrass around a different model mandolin with a different sound, Loar and his improvements would be the exclusive stuff of academics and company historians.

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j. condino, 

Timbofood

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## siminoff

The issue of who signed the labels and why is certainly an interesting one. I think at the onset - Loar's tenure - the signature label was a way of certifying the instrument as a quality product (not really saying who made it). After Loar's time, it was a mixture of marketing hype at some times and the luthier who made it at other times. 

Regarding the Meints label that Ken Roddick posted, here is a sharper image of it (Ken took another photo and I brightened it a bit in Photoshop). I can share with you - with Ken's permission - that this F5L was Wayne Benson's sidekick for a few years and it is an outstanding instrument. The tone bars in the Dick Doan-signed mandolin were rather severely worked on by some previous owner(s) and it was a comparatively poor sounding instrument. Ken left it at my shop one weekend and I decided to surprise him and rebuild the tone bars and tap tune it from the outside (without taking the instrument apart) - very much like building a ship in a bottle - a project I'd not necessarily want to do again. I'll see if I can urge Ken to tell the rest of the story, but it was a rather impressive change and I think the instrument sounds pretty great today. (The soundboards and backboards on both of these F5Ls came off my pattern carver.) R

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## MikeEdgerton

From what I can see Loar's signature on the inside was probably more akin to having one of the later signature models that Gibson would produce that carried the artists name (Ricky Skaggs, etc.) on the outside.

Musicians had been endorsing other musical instruments over the years, Fred Van Eps comes to mind. Lloyd Loar was Gibson's attempt to use a rock star from that era to their marketing advantage. It was an interesting experiment that they probably didn't profit greatly from until decades afterwards.

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j. condino

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## DataNick

Mr. Siminoff,

On a side note, a mando buddy of mine has an F-5L from December of 1980 with Aaron Cowles signature. We were wondering if you indeed did the carving/tap-tuning on his mando.

BTW: His 1980 F-5L was remarkably very similar to my Bozeman 1994 F-5L in appearance, feel, and sound!

Thanks in advance for whatever you can share!

Attachment 125012 Attachment 125013

Attachment 125014 Attachment 125015

Attachment 125016

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## DataNick

Here's the pics inbedded...

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## siminoff

DataNick… Yes, I carved the soundboards and backboards for the F5Ls through early 1981. I'm uncertain of the last day they actually used parts from my machine because a) there was still an inventory of carved soundboards and backboards as I was sending new ones, b) I don't know how may boards were damaged and not used either at the outset or somewhere during production, and c) we finally set up their carver with some master patterns from my machine and I don't know the exact break point between my carving and their carving. (If there are more questions on this topic, let's take it off to a new thread so we don't hijack this great thread). …R

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## DataNick

> DataNick Yes, I carved the soundboards and backboards for the F5Ls through early 1981. I'm uncertain of the last day they actually used parts from my machine because a) there was still an inventory of carved soundboards and backboards as I was sending new ones, b) I don't know how may boards were damaged and not used either at the outset or somewhere during production, and c) we finally set up their carver with some master patterns from my machine and I don't know the exact break point between my carving and their carving. (If there are more questions on this topic, let's take it off to a new thread so we don't hijack this great thread). R


Mr. Siminoff,

I've bumped another thread with a followup question.

Much thanks!

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...92#post1340292

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## siminoff

Mike I think your assessment is pretty accurate. And probably similar to having "Earl Scruggs" or "B.B King" or "Les Paul" on the truss rod cover. I think it is also important to consider that this was a time when flowery boastful marketing was rampant and having a deck of heavy hitters in your back pocket was important. Consider for a moment of the 50- and 60-page Gibson catalogs of the day with abundant rationale on why Gibson's acoustic instruments were superior. To top it off, having an "acoustic engineer" sign your product was a real product differentiator. As to Loar's fame then, he was certainly known, performing on his own, with Gibsonites, and with Fisher Shipp, but I don't think his fame flourished as quickly or vividly in the communication tools of the day. The press was the only messenger then, and the absence of TV and of today's real-time communications methods certainly made it harder for artists to become widely recognized.

When we were introducing the F5Ls in 1978, Jim Deurloo (plant manager at the time) didn't think it was right for him (Jim) to sign labels. Bruce Bolen thought I should sign them (after all, he thought there would only be three F5L mandolins) but I felt that was wrong and I wanted the three luthiers (Doan, Fuller, and Cowles) to sign them. Believe it or not, getting that to happen took an act of congress and it had to go through Norlin (Gibson's parent company then) legal for approval. They finally said "okay" but again thinking there would only be three mandolins - sort of a "what the heck.." kind of answer. The rest is history. R

----------

hank, 

MikeEdgerton

----------


## Timbofood

Roger, thank you for the continuing insight into the "redesign" project! The redirection for the mandolin "division" using the ideas you and the rest of team came up with shows, there is hope for "corporations" to see they do need help.
Should you find yourself in Kalamazoo, feel free to come for some feasting!

----------


## Mark Christensen

My understanding is that Gibson didn't buy out Flatiron until 1987 therefore Steve Carlson couldn't have signed labels for Gibson in 1986 as posted. I'm sure he didn't sign labels for Gibson until '87 possibly '88. Anyone have a Carlson signed gibson from '87?

----------


## jan281969

The label in my 1980 F-5L is signed by Rick Brown.I have tried unsuccessfully to find any information about him.  I am very proud of the fact that Mr. Siminoff carved/graduated the top and back on my Mandolin,it seems to make the mandolin sound better just knowing that fact.Concerning RICK BROWN if anyone has any info,dirt,or war stories I would love to hear it.
Also------why is the word I believe to be "President" marked out on all the early F-5Ls I have saw in previous posts?????

----------


## DataNick

> My understanding is that Gibson didn't buy out Flatiron until 1987 therefore Steve Carlson couldn't have signed labels for Gibson in 1986 as posted. I'm sure he didn't sign labels for Gibson until '87 possibly '88. Anyone have a Carlson signed gibson from '87?


I believe Gibson contracted out F5L production to Flatiron in 1986-87 before the purchase because of their inability to keep up with F5L orders. The luthiers from Kalamazoo who made mandos apparently chose not to relocate to Nashville in 83'-84'.

----------


## siminoff

Ooops - yes, forgot about Rick Brown. There was also a woman building there for a while. I'll do some digging and get back with some data… R

PS: Yes, the word "President" was struck out after Stan Rendell retired (since the other folks signing were luthiers, not the Pres.) One would think that Gibson could have afforded to print new labels.

----------


## siminoff

DataNick.. Regarding your comment: "The luthiers from Kalamazoo who made mandos apparently chose not to relocate to Nashville in 83'-84'." This was a period of some turmoil at Gibson: The plant was moving from Kalamazoo to Nashville, mandolin production moved to Flatiron, Norlin (Gibson's parent company) wasn't terribly supportive and didn't know how to run a guitar company, and a private company bought Gibson from Norlin Industries (in 1986). From the luthier's perspective, mandolin building wasn't the highest thing on their priority list, many Kalamazoo employees had long tenure with Gibson Kalamazoo, some of their ancestors worked at Gibson Kalamazoo, most of their families were in Kalamazoo, and in the middle of all the aforementioned turmoil, the move to Nashville had questionable appeal. Jim Deurloo decided to stay in Kalamazoo and a new plant manager - Whitey Morrison - was assigned to the Nashville facility. Only a modest number of folks relocated.  …R

----------

DataNick

----------


## DataNick

Thank you Mr. Siminoff for the interesting background on that. So this is the backdrop in which apparently as I've read that initially F5L production was "contracted out" to Flatiron, and hence Steve Carlson signatures on  F5L mandolins in 1986....

----------


## siminoff

Seeing all the labels reminds me that the first three F5L prototypes had different labels from the F5Ls that followed. When we got to the labeling stage, I prepared the artwork for the F5L labels with the goal of replicating the size, shape, graphics, font, and feel of the original Loar-signed labels. However, the label I prepared included the Gibson guarantee statement and Norlin legal shot it down. So I re-did them (actually, I think there were two more changes) until we arrived at what you see in this photo. Again, these labels were only for the first three, and they might have used them for a few mandolins once production ramped up in Sept of 1978 but I don't know where the cutoff point was to the next version of the label. (Yes, the writing on one label is blurry - a over zealous bozo onlooker at a festival leaned over to look at the labels and had a Coke in his hand. !@#$!@#$) …R

PS: These are the labels in the F5L prototype I own.

----------

DataNick, 

hank, 

jochemgr

----------


## Links

I guess though the years all of the signers have been called "Acoustic Engineers", yet I don't think anyone is sure that any of the signers are either engineers or professional acoustic experts.  As a matter of fact, the fact that they are not is probably one of the reasons that so many of them sound outstanding.  I don't know about Michigan, but in the state of Tennessee it is illegal to call yourself an "engineer" unless you are one and are registered in the state as one.  Same with the term "architect".  I know because I found out the hard way!!!!!  It is my guess that the state authorities have never paid attention that the term is being used by Gibson or that it has never been brought to their attention whereas the labels would have been changed.

----------

j. condino

----------


## jochemgr

Thanks all once again for all this great information!
Which artists signed the labels on their signature editions? I know Bill Monroe and Ricky Skaggs did, but am not sure of the others. I assume Bill Monroe simply signed 200 labels rather than personally inspected everyone of them. 

Gibson employees
Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
Rick Brown (1980) *
Jerry Rowland (1981)
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Steve B. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Dennis A. Balin (?)
Phil Brug (1993-1994)
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997)
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) 
Charlie Derrington (1998-2004) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007)
David W. Harvey (2008-2014) *

Signature models
Bill Monroe (1991-1994) *
Ricky Skaggs (2008)

Not sure..
Adam Steffey (?)
Alan Bibey (?)
Bobby Osborne (?)
Doyle Lawson (?)
Sam Bush (?)
Wayne Benson (?)

----------


## jochemgr

Small update on this. I've removed Dennis Balian from the list as I can't find any Gibsons signed by him, only Flatirons. Also came across a 1989 model signed by Greg Rich, a new name to me! Also a few minor changes to the years, based on models I've seen online. 

Gibson signatories
Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
Rick Brown (1980) *
Jerry Rowland (1981)
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Greg Rich (1989)
Steve B. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997)
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
Charlie Derrington (1998-2005) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007)
David W. Harvey (2008-2014) *

Artists signatures
Bill Monroe (1991-1994) *
Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)

Not sure if these people signed their signature labels. If anyone can confirm that would be great
Adam Steffey (?)
Alan Bibey (?)
Bobby Osborne (?)
Doyle Lawson (?)
Sam Bush (?)
Wayne Benson (?)

Found images of a Sim Daley and a Phil Brug label:


If anyone has a Gibson label signed by Rowland, Triggs, Rich, Weber, Sullivan, Ricky Skaggs or anyone not on the list, please post a scan of it in this thread. 

We'll get this list complete someday!!
Cheers, Jochem

----------

Bob Bass

----------


## DataNick

Jochem,

Apparently Charlie Derrington was making/signing mandolins in 1987, and possibly other late 80s years as well. Jim Triggs could confirm that, but at least in this case 1987. See this thread 
Derrington-Gibson-F5-mandolins Post #8 has the pic of the signature label.

----------

jochemgr

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## MikeEdgerton

Greg Rich was behind some pretty intense one off Gibson instruments. I don't know if he ever signed any general production. You could probably ask him if you dig out his e-mail address. He's one of the people behind the instruments imported by *The Music Link*. You'll probably recognize a few of those brands. If you're on Linked-In he is as well.

----------

jochemgr

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## David Smith

There is a Gibson Sam Bush model currently listed on EBay with a photo of the interior label signed by Sam Bush as the accoustic engineer.

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## jochemgr

Great! Thank you David!

----------


## jochemgr

I just found a signature I can't place. This is from a 1976 F-5 on eBay a while ago. First name looks like Carl. Any help appreciated!



Thanks! Jochem

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## jochemgr

It's Carl Spinoso who replaced Stan Rendell in the mid 1970s.

Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Carl Spinoso (1976) *
Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
Rick Brown (1980) *
Jerry Rowland (1981)
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Greg Rich (1989)
Steve P. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Bill Monroe (1991-1995) *
Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997)
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
Charles Derrington (1987-2005) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007)
Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)
David W. Harvey (2008-2014) *
Sam Bush (2012) *

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## trevor

1980 Marvin Luck (?) ... more info soon.

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## siminoff

Yes, please provide more info on "Marvin Luck" - if you are referring to Martin Lock, he was Gibson's president after move to Nashville. …R

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## trevor

Hi Roger,

That's interesting it as labelled Kalamazoo, maybe it was started there and finished in Nashville. Some photos below, more on my website here http://www.theacousticmusicco.co.uk/...olins-121.html

----------

DataNick, 

Timbofood

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## siminoff

Thanks Trevor… Now that I see photos, this mandolin is of the pre-1978 design period (backboard wood, pointed neck heel, size of f-holes, inlays) and very well could have hung around the plant for one reason or another, finally getting finished in 1980. I don't recognize signature. Not very surprising… R

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## trevor

Thanks Roger.

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## jochemgr

Thanks Trevor from saving this thread from obscurity! I believe it's Marvin Lamb, who later co-founded Heritage Guitars. I added him to the photoalbum on my Cafe profile a while ago but forgot to update this thread.

Updated list below, the ones with a * have a picture somewhere on these 4 pages.

_Gibson F5 label signatories_
Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Carl Spinoso (1976) *
Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
Rick Brown (1980) *
Marvin Lamb (1980) *
Jerry Rowland (1981)
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Greg Rich (1989)
Steve P. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Bill Monroe (1991-1995) *
Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997)
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
Charles Derrington (1987-2005) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Doyle Lawson (2003?)
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007)
Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)
David W. Harvey (2008-2015) *
Sam Bush (2012) *

I wonder how many names are still missing!

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## Timbofood

Trevor, I think that's Marvin Lamb as well

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## KGreene

According to Danny, during his tenure as "Mandolin Division Supervisor" and before Dave Harvey...only the Ferns and up were signed with some exceptions to custom work on other models. Since Harvey became the Division Supervisor, most are signed after inspection.

JMTCW.

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## siminoff

Jochemgr… It wasn't Marv. You are right that Marv was with Gibson and stayed in Kalamazoo to start Heritage Guitars with Rendall Wall and Jim Deurloo, but Marv didn't work in the mandolin shop and he never signed mandolin labels. I'll do more digging on that signature. Best to all… R

----------

DataNick, 

hank, 

Ivan Kelsall

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## Benski

If the list above is including signers who weren't Gibson luthiers (e.g. Monroe, Lawson, Bush, etc.), then Bobby Osborne should be added. I had a 1996 F5L that was signed by both Bruce Weber and Bobby Osborne (see pics below).  

 

Beyond mine, there are at least two other Bobby Osborne F5L's out there that were once listed at Gruhn's, one from 1993 (Carlson) and one from 1994 (Weber). 

Cheers.

----------


## siminoff

Benski's comment that "… not all signatures were luthiers…." brought to mind that during Stan Rendell's tenure (1968-1976), he occasionally had various folks in the plant sign a label as a "thank you" for their service. I think the signature in question on that "April 2, 1980" mandolin (a page back) is that of Maurice McKlisch. Maurice was a maintenance guy at Gibson - he was NOT a builder. As I mentioned in a previous post, that instrument is pre-1978, and it could have been hanging around the plant (as many of them did) finally getting dated and released in 1980. Looking at how the date was written, it wouldn't surprise me if it was dated through the f-hole. And, of course Maurice's signature on the "president" line is silly because he wasn't president of Gibson at that time (or any time). A nice gesture that Stan made, but kind of ridiculous in the scheme of things. (And, it certainly complicates developing an accurate list of Gibson luthiers.) …R

----------

DataNick, 

hank, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

jochemgr, 

Timbofood

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## jochemgr

If Stan Randell let various folks sign is there a chance it might be Marvin Lamb after all? That first name looks more like Marvin to me.

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## MikeEdgerton

That looks like Marvin Lamb to me.

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## siminoff

I've doubled back with Jim Deurloo, Rendell Wall, and Marv - and Marv did not sign any. …R

----------

hank, 

jochemgr, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

Thanks Roger, I was considering going down to the shop and asking Marv but, I am way too busy fiddling around on this site!

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## MikeEdgerton

Has anyone showed Marv that picture?

----------


## Rick3628

This clearly looks like a photoshop job...check the different colors and consistency of the inks.
Although I can't fathom why...

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## Bernie Daniel

> It would be good to note that nobody was signing labels after Lloyd left until decades later.


Yeah I think there was a nationwide shortage of acoustical engineers,at least ones willing to move to Kalamazoo.

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## travellerbytrade

> Interesting about Orville! Did he sign labels at all or did they just mention his name? I based it on the top tab on Mandolinarchive.com which says "Orville label 1900-1910".
> 
> Just found these two:
> 1981 Jerry Rowland - See Elderly current stock F-5L
> 1986 Jim Triggs - See Carter Vintage current stock F-5
> 
> That brings my rough list list to:
> Orville Gibson (1900 - 1910)
> Lloyd Loar (1923 - 1924)
> ...


Orville's title was 'superintendent,' the next super was George D. Laurian in 1907. Orville was back living in New York State by September of 1909. In my humble researcher's opinion, Orville would have never ever signed anything he didn't make himself...never...ever. He was like that.  :Smile: 

I feel that when Lloyd Loar  was hired, signing became a thing because he was the first person since Orville to have a public reputation that the company could take to the bank.

Documentation for the previous comments can be found in my (hopefully soon to be published) biography of Orville H. Gibson.

----------

hank, 

jochemgr

----------


## Timbofood

So Joyce, how many of O.H.G's instruments have you had the pleasure of inspecting? I have seen three, maybe four, time muddies memory.
I agree that he probably didn't sign anything that he had not built, very reasonable assumption.
I am ready for the book to come out! I want a signed copy!  :Grin:

----------


## travellerbytrade

> So Joyce, how many of O.H.G's instruments have you had the pleasure of inspecting? I have seen three, maybe four, time muddies memory.
> I agree that he probably didn't sign anything that he had not built, very reasonable assumption.
> I am ready for the book to come out! I want a signed copy!


Only two, but I've seen detailed (inside and out) photographs of many. I'm ready for the book, too. It's been a long row to hoe.

----------


## trevor

"This clearly looks like a photoshop job...check the different colors and consistency of the inks.
Although I can't fathom why..."

Are you serious? If it was a photoshop job why do it that way?

----------

MikeEdgerton

----------


## Benski

Saw this today in an Ebay listing

----------

jochemgr

----------


## hank

I lost touch with this thread and just caught up today.  Here is Casey Q. Sullivan's signature in my April 2006 Goldrush, YellowBell.  They got it right in this one.  Thank you Mr. Sullivan. I posted a couple new photos on the Goldrush Facebook Registry.

----------


## siminoff

Jerry Rowland was a shaper operator (running the shaping machines that carved necks). He didn't build instruments nor did he work in any of the finishing departments. As I mentioned somewhere earlier in this post, Stan Rendall allowed various folks in the plant to sign labels as a courtesy for their involvement and efforts. (Sure doesn't help to keep track of who actually built instruments at Gibson.) Best regards to all… R

----------

DataNick, 

hank, 

Timbofood

----------


## dhmando

Cool thread! 
I actually started signing Gibson mandolins in the middle of 2007. 
David Harvey
Master Luthier
Gibson Original Acoustic Instruments/Gibson Custom Shop

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

carleshicks, 

DataNick, 

hank, 

jochemgr

----------


## hank

I'm trying to imagine how much of the Master Model tuning Mr. Loar actually performed.  The R&D photo of Loyd's work bench gives the impression that he did in fact have some hands on in the final tuning of his Master line of instruments as the signed labels inside states.  Can we assume that he shop trained Gibson's luthier's to carve the proper graduations and recurve.  Tuning of the plates and his tone bar bracing along with proper neck set for precise break angles most likely couldn't be taught solely in the classroom with details given in his Master Model drawings. It must have been quite a change in the methods from mandolin building to Stradivarius like plate tuning and bowed instrument neck angles.  Mr. Siminoff's experience at teaching and training builders these methods both at Gibson and his luthier's classes makes him the most qualified person I can think of to accurately guess Mr. Loars active role in tuning besides signing the labels for sales purposes.

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## jochemgr

Thanks all for the input.. Below the updated list. Those with a * have a photo in this thread somewhere! There was an '81 F-5 signed by Donald Doans in the classifieds recently as well which I've added below too. The list keeps on growing!!

Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Carl Spinoso (1976) *
Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
Rick Brown (1980) *
Marvin Lamb (1980) *
Donald L. Doans (1981)
Jerry Rowland (1981) *
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Greg Rich (1989)
Steve P. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Bill Monroe (1991-1995) *
Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997) *
Bobby Osborne (1993-1996) *
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
Charles Derrington (1987-2005) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Doyle Lawson (2003?)
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007) *
Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)
David W. Harvey (2007-2015) *
Sam Bush (2012) *

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## Timbofood

"Head luthier" is a bit misleading given some of the signers.
Bill Monroe wasn't a luthier
Nor
Bobby Osborne
Doyle Lawson 
Ricky Skaggs
Sam Bush

So it rather seems to me that this is not about whether or not they were luthiers but, more about simply who signed what label and when, isn't it?
I guess it's the contrarian in me.
Cool list no matter what you call it!

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## MikeEdgerton

> "Head luthier" is a bit misleading given some of the signers.
> Bill Monroe wasn't a luthier
> Nor
> Bobby Osborne
> Doyle Lawson 
> Ricky Skaggs
> Sam Bush
> 
> So it rather seems to me that this is not about whether or not they were luthiers but, more about simply who signed what label and when, isn't it?
> ...


Agreed.

----------

Timbofood

----------


## jochemgr

Yeah completely agree. It kind of evolved to something else.. I don't think I can change the subject though at this stage. Happy for a moderator to change it to something more reflective of what it is now - people that have signed Gibson F5 labels!

Jochem

----------


## travellerbytrade

> It kind of evolved to something else.
> 
> Jochem


You all just followed the winding path of the researcher. After collecting and organizing our information, new questions always arise. So we regroup, reorganize, and ask the next set of questions. The old information doesn't become obsolete, it's what the new questions are built upon. The latter can't happen without the former. Personally, I think it's cool. It's like putting together pieces of a puzzle. The result is a better understanding of the bigger picture (see quote below).

----------

jochemgr

----------


## Bill McCall

In the interest of accuracy for the list, my 1980 f 5l was signed by Jerry Rowland.

----------

jochemgr

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## MikeEdgerton

> I've doubled back with Jim Deurloo, Rendell Wall, and Marv - and Marv did not sign any. R


I'm pretty sure he did. *Here's* another one.

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## hank

Mike the date caught my eye on both labels as the same so I saved both and viewed them side by side.  They are the same Photo and likely the same mandolin.

----------

MikeEdgerton

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## hank

Maybe that one was so less than perfect that they had to draw straws to decide who had to sign it before they went home for the evening and could forget about it at the local pub.

----------


## manolo

Hi
I think I' now the owner of the mandolin signed by Paul Schneider shown in your post. I bought in Picker's shop near Washington DC a couple of years ago and now in with me in Italy
Do any one has info about previous owner ?

Thank you
Manolo

manolocacciatori@aol.com

----------


## Voodoo South

Check for David Harvey. I was fortunate enough to take a few months of mando lessons from him several years ago, and he's a fantastic player and luthier.

----------


## manolo

> Check for David Harvey. I was fortunate enough to take a few months of mando lessons from him several years ago, and he's a fantastic player and luthier.


Do you think he can have info on my mando's previous owners ?
Have you any contact of David ?

Thank's

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## FPhil

He's on Facebook, you can send him a pm.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Do you think he can have info on my mando's previous owners ?
> Have you any contact of David ?
> 
> Thank's


I seriously doubt Dave will have any information on the previous owner. Even if Gibson checked their sales records that mandolin was probably in several hands before you bought it. They "might" have the information on the original owner but I doubt they would share that information.

----------


## manolo

I agree with you. 
But the question was another: I've seen in this post a picture of a master model signed by Paul Schneider 19th may 1998. Compared with mine I found out that is the same label of my mandolin. I mean that picture was taken from the mandolin I've bought near Washington a couple of years ago
I was asking if some one knows who were the previous owner, just to track the history of this mando...

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> I agree with you. 
> But the question was another: I've seen in this post a picture of a master model signed by Paul Schneider 19th may 1998. Compared with mine I found out that is the same label of my mandolin. I mean that picture was taken from the mandolin I've bought near Washington a couple of years ago
> I was asking if some one knows who were the previous owner, just to track the history of this mando...


I totally understand that. That image might have come from a Google search that popped up the images from a previous advertisement for the mandolin.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

*This* post says the image came from an ad for a mandolin for sale at Picker's Supply. I'm going to hazard a guess that the store you bought it from might have been Picker's Supply.

----------


## manolo

I really bought this mandolin by Picker's supply...!!!

Mistery solved !!
Thank you

----------


## Skip Brownlow

I now own the F5 G which is signed by Paul Schneider and is the same serial number as shown on Pickers supply website. I would love to have any information anyone else has on my  Mando.

----------


## Dacraw54

How come Roger Siminoff isn’t on the list?

----------


## Benski

"_How come Roger Siminoff isn’t on the list?"_ 

See posts #35 and #53. Cheers.

----------

MikeEdgerton

----------


## Big Joe

Gibson does not have a list of retail buyers of their instruments.  They only have the dealer it was sold to.  Remember, Gibson is a wholesale manufacturer whose customers are the dealers.  The retail buyer is the customer of the dealer.  Most dealers don’t keep very good records of their customers, especially if it was a number of years ago.

----------


## jan281969

Big Joe that brings up a fun fact for me,,,,my mandolin is an F-5L dated Feb 12 1980----serial#-83110018,,,,,How could i found out where/what store it was originally sold to?I would be interested to know this!!

----------


## Dacraw54

> Somewhere here we have a post by Joe Vest, a former Gibson employee that mentions that Sim was the only one signing the underside of the top on mandolins. The other builders apparently didn't do that. I think you should just remove Julius Bellson from the list. The next thing to do would be to identify the years missing.


Sim also signed the underside of the tops of Flatirons built by Gibson.  So the same teams worked on F5-L/F5-G and Flatiron Artist/Festival?  I have a Flatiron Artist and a Festival from 2000 with Sims signatures on the tops.

----------


## Hendrik Ahrend

> Sim also signed the underside of the tops of Flatirons built by Gibson.  So the same teams worked on F5-L/F5-G and Flatiron Artist/Festival?  I have a Flatiron Artist and a Festival from 2000 with Sims signatures on the tops.


Apparently, not only Sim signed mandolin tops. The top on my DMM F5 is signed "Michael Owens Sept. 2005".

----------


## MikeEdgerton

I wonder if Big Joe knew that.

----------


## Dacraw54

Any idea whose signature is on this Bozeman F5-L from 1994?

----------


## MikeEdgerton

That appears to be a new one.

----------


## Big Joe

Yes, I knew Sim and Michael signed the underside of some of the tops.  I even signed a few, but usually shied away from it.  As far as which dealer Jacks mandolin came from is hard to say.  Records were a bit sketchy at that time.  You may be able to call Gibson customer service and see if they can help you.  It may be a lost cause, but it cost you nothing to try.

----------


## AMandolin

Dacraw54 Looks like a Rick signature.
Rick Gembar

----------


## Dacraw54

Is that a guess based on the signature or is Rick Gembar an actual person who worked at Gibson?

----------


## slimt

> Is that a guess based on the signature or is Rick Gembar an actual person who worked at Gibson?


Bozeman had a actual Custom shop at the time.. and if Im not mistaken they were building Gibson Mandolins out of the old Flatiron Building in Belgrade Montana..  Ren Ferguson was part of Flatiron at the time prior to Heading up the Head Luthier posistion at Gibson Montana under Manager Larry English.. It went from Belgrade to Nashville..   I bet Ren would know a fair bit of who was Building those..

a good friend of mind Bill Gonder did a artical about the whole ordeal.. he worked alond side of Ren and John , and Kevin and so on.

. 
Gibson Flatiron is closing its mandolin plant in Belgrade and moving to Nashville, Tenn.

The plant’s 32 employees were told Friday. All are being offered a job either in Nashville or with a sister plant, Gibson Guitar in Bozeman, said Bruce Weber, general manager of the mandolin plant.

Gibson Flatiron opened on Frontage Road in Belgrade in April 1994. It and the guitar company are controlled from Gibson’s corporate headquarters in Nashville.

----------


## AMandolin

Rick was GM of the Gibson custom shop in 1994. He signed labels then.
That is a real person.

----------

Dacraw54

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## MikeEdgerton

Apparently he was let go by Gibson in 2017. Beloved by the Les Paul community. I just found a 1994 F5G label he signed.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

I'll update the list as the OP hasn't been on in quite a while.

Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Carl Spinoso (1976) *
Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
Rick Brown (1980) *
Marvin Lamb (1980) *
Donald L. Doans (1981)
Jerry Rowland (1981) *
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Greg Rich (1989)
Steve P. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Rick Gembar (1994)
Bill Monroe (1991-1995) *
Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997) *
Bobby Osborne (1993-1996) *
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
Charles Derrington (1987-2005) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Doyle Lawson (2003?)
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007) *
Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)
David W. Harvey (2007-2015) *
Sam Bush (2012) *

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## V70416

Thank you,MikeE. 

I read and re-read the names in the ongoing list of Gibson mandolin signers/head luthiers etc. Lots to read between-
the-lines as the years rolled by.

Two of my mandolins have three of the names;Steve P. Carlson,Bill Monroe,and Charles Derrington. 
Yes,I'm bragging. 

Helps me make up for poor playing abilities.

----------

MikeEdgerton

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## carleshicks

Here is a name I have never seen on a Gibson label. Any idea who it is.

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## pheffernan

It looks to me to read Jeff Allen, which is apparently the name of a Gibson USA General Manager:

https://www.lespaulforum.com/slubart...e/supreme.html

I'm wondering if it's the same Jeff Allen who has managed Martin's Custom Shop.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Adding Jeff Allen.

Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Carl Spinoso (1976) *
Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
Rick Brown (1980) *
Marvin Lamb (1980) *
Donald L. Doans (1981)
Jerry Rowland (1981) *
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Greg Rich (1989)
Steve P. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Rick Gembar (1994)
Bill Monroe (1991-1995) *
Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997) *
Bobby Osborne (1993-1996) *
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Jeff Allen (2000) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
Charles Derrington (1987-2005) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Doyle Lawson (2003?)
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007) *
Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)
David W. Harvey (2007-2015) *
Sam Bush (2012) *

* Denotes there is a picture of the label in this thread

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## MikeEdgerton

*This* has recently surfaced. An A-5G from Montana with three signatures on the label. In the interest of maintaining this history the label is below. The signatures appear to be Neal Klemmer, Helen Beausoleil, and Jean Swan.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

The new list would be:

Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Carl Spinoso (1976) *
Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
Rick Brown (1980) *
Marvin Lamb (1980) *
Donald L. Doans (1981)
Jerry Rowland (1981) *
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Greg Rich (1989)
Steve P. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Rick Gembar (1994)
Bill Monroe (1991-1995) *
Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
Neal Klemmer, Helen Beausoleil, and Jean Swan (all signed the same label) (1996) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997) *
Bobby Osborne (1993-1996) *
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Jeff Allen (2000) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
Charles Derrington (1987-2005) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Doyle Lawson (2003?)
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007) *
Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)
David W. Harvey (2007-2015) *
Sam Bush (2012) *

* Denotes there is a picture of the label in this thread

----------

T.D.Nydn

----------


## Mary Weber

> *This* has recently surfaced. An A-5G from Montana with three signatures on the label. In the interest of maintaining this history the label is below. The signatures appear to be Neal Klemmer, Helen Beausoleil, and Jean Swan.


Was looking for something and saw this...in his Gibson/Flatiron Division years Bruce started teams of builders who built models from start to finish (except finish :  ) and they got to sign them when proficient.  People could also build their own instrument on their off hours for cost of materials.  The mandos moved to Nashville before the whole thing really got into high gear. Helen is a long time builder, and still around.

----------

AMandolin, 

Bernie Daniel, 

hank, 

lflngpicker

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## MikeEdgerton

Added a new year for Carl Spinoso. The new list is:

Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Carl Spinoso (1976-1977) *
Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
Rick Brown (1980) *
Marvin Lamb (1980) *
Donald L. Doans (1981)
Jerry Rowland (1981) *
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Greg Rich (1989)
Steve P. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Rick Gembar (1994)
Bill Monroe (1991-1995) *
Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
Neal Klemmer, Helen Beausoleil, and Jean Swan (all signed the same label) (1996) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997) *
Bobby Osborne (1993-1996) *
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Jeff Allen (2000) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
Charles Derrington (1987-2005) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Doyle Lawson (2003?)
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007) *
Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)
David W. Harvey (2007-2015) *
Sam Bush (2012) *

* Denotes there is a picture of the label in this thread

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## Bernie Daniel

> Added a new year for Carl Spinoso. The new list is:
> 
> Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
> Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
> Carl Spinoso (1976-1977) *
> Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
> Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
> Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
> Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
> ...


Maybe the date range for David Harvey should be updated?

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## MikeEdgerton

Updated to reflect David Harvey's continued activities.

Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Carl Spinoso (1976-1977) *
Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
Rick Brown (1980) *
Marvin Lamb (1980) *
Donald L. Doans (1981)
Jerry Rowland (1981) *
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Greg Rich (1989)
Steve P. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Rick Gembar (1994)
Bill Monroe (1991-1995) *
Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
Neal Klemmer, Helen Beausoleil, and Jean Swan (all signed the same label) (1996) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997) *
Bobby Osborne (1993-1996) *
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Jeff Allen (2000) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
Charles Derrington (1987-2005) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Doyle Lawson (2003?)
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007) *
Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)
David W. Harvey (2007-2019) *
Sam Bush (2012) *

* Denotes there is a picture of the label in this thread

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

FLATROCK HILL

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## AllenPitts

Hello Mandolin Cafe Forum,

Well looks like I am a bit late to the party since the
the last post was a year and a half ago, but
I just found this recently and find it fascinating.
Mostly because about a year ago a
Gibson 5-AG was acquired for
$1750 from Fiddler's Green Music Shop
in Lockhart Tx, (used to be in Austin).


Gibson mandolin built 
December 17 1990
by Steve P. Carlson
Gibson Master Model A-5G
number 0117129
Gibson Inc Boseman MT USA



Before that I had my starter mando,
a Kay mandolin, which was acquired on Craig's List
in a swap for a Hughes and Kettner Tube Rotosphere (Digital Leslie)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p76UNOX9CVU
I think I got gypped because the Rotosphere was worth about
$200 and the Kay was worth about $150. Subsequent research
revealed that the only thing that was Kay about the starter mando
was the logo on the tail piece. And that it probably was from a flood
of low end mandos from Japan and Korea in the folk music craze
in the 60's and 70's The Asian manufacturers bought loads 
of Kay tail pieces and slapped them on 
less expensive instruments as marketing bate. The Kay is very pretty with some
nice inlay and it is about a half an inch thicker than any other mando 
I have ever seen. This makes the Kay a little deeper and louder
than most mandos. But a chord or double stop played at the nut
is in tune but played above, say, above the tenth fret, is sour and out of tune.

The move to the 5-AG from the Kay was a huge jump in sound
and playability. Some trepidation was experienced because the
Gibson was purchased sight unseen from Lockhart to Dallas.
But a friend, Gerald Jones, who is something of a legend
in the Dallas acoustical music scene, said that Fiddler Green is
a righteous group that would stand by their sales.

Particularly interesting is the list of 33 luthiers which
includes Bill Monroe (certainly an interesting coincidence,
like a guy named Willie Nelson working at the Martin guitar shop),
Ricky Scaggs and Sam Bush.

Also to have Steve P. Carlson join the thread was very cool.
The mandolin players that have been met at acoustic and
bluegrass jams in Dallas speak of Mr. Carlson in reverent tones.

This a ton of good information.

Thanks.

Allen Pitts
Dallas Texas

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## siminoff

Allen... 
I've not reviewed the six pages of this post so I'm not sure if this was mentioned before but... during the time Stan Rendell was Gibson president from around 1968 or 1969 to around 1973. He looked down his nose at Gibson's mandolin business - not believing they were worthy instruments - and because of that he thought it would be fun if various folks - NOT the mandolin builders - signed the mandolin labels! @#$!. Carl Spinoso followed Stan as President and he didn't know better so the _everyone-can-sign-one_ fiasco continued. Tom Fedders was plant manager (not President) - he came out of the furniture business and really didn't understand the stringed instrument business, and didn't know what a mandolin was let alone care who signed one. Steve Carlson rightfully signed instruments because his company - Flatiron - had an arrangement with Gibson to build Gibson mandolins during the period when Gibson was moving from Kalamazoo to Nashville (1984-1985). Actually, I think the move started in 1983. After a few years, the deal soured for Steve (very much more of Gibson's doing than Steve's doing!!!) and around 1987 mandolins were being made back at Gibson, but in Nashville - and eventually under Charlie Derrington's watchful eye. The primary mandolin builders at Gibson Kalamazoo during the _everyone-can-sign-one_ period were Aaron Cowles, Dick Doan, and Wilbur Fuller - and they were the real builders and were good, sensitive, caring, and focused luthiers!  
R

----------

Billy Packard, 

BradKlein

----------


## siminoff

Allen's post and my previous response triggered some memories and I wanted to share them to shed a bit more light on the relevance of mandolin production at Gibson Kalamazoo. 

The "original" Gibson building was a three-story structure built in 1917. Over the years, several additions were made with the last expansion in the early 1960s to a total of about 120,000 square feet, I think. In addition to office space, the new buildings featured several streamlined production lines for solid body, semi-hollow body, acoustic guitars. The production line in the main plant was a showpiece. But the original building wasn't always part of the "ten-cent tour" - it housed a prototype/R&D shop, a few offices, the parts department (under the watchful eye of Wanda Montgomery), the tool crib, a steam bending room (where one guy rolled all the banjo rims and steam-bent the mandolin ribs, one two banjo production benches (I don't remember for sure), and three workspaces for the mandolin luthiers. So, while the mandolin soundboards, backboards, and necks were carved in the main plant, all mandolin construction was done in the original building. Bear in mind that mandolin sales prior to 1978 were meager at best. They really didn't make a dent in the company's sales reports So, while mandolins were clearly part of Gibson's heritage, it's little wonder how letting anyone who happened to walk in the front door sign a label. 

R

----------

Billy Packard, 

cayuga red, 

FLATROCK HILL

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> ...Particularly interesting is the list of 33 luthiers which includes Bill Monroe (certainly an interesting coincidence, like a guy named Willie Nelson working at the Martin guitar shop), Ricky Scaggs and Sam Bush



If you go through the entire thread it kind of morphed and ended up really being a list of people that signed Gibson labels and has nothing to do with "Head Luthiers". Lloyd Loar never had that title at Gibson and you'll note that he starts the list. The title was left intact so that people looking for this thread could find it.

----------


## walter carter

> It looks to me to read Jeff Allen, which is apparently the name of a Gibson USA General Manager:
> 
> https://www.lespaulforum.com/slubart...e/supreme.html
> 
> I'm wondering if it's the same Jeff Allen who has managed Martin's Custom Shop.


As usual, the more information that comes to light about Gibson, the more questions are raised. I can tie up a couple of loose ends.

Jeff Allen was indeed GM of Gibson USA, and he is the same Jeff Allen who now works for Martin. 

Rick Gembar is a real person. He came to Gibson in late 1993 to be GM of the Custom Shop when it became a standalone division. He held the position for 23 years.

----------

FLATROCK HILL, 

pheffernan

----------


## dhmando

I started signing Gibson mandolins in 2007 and I continue to do so! 

David Harvey

----------

BradKlein

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Yeah, we should probably take that end date out of the list. Updated to remove the David Harvey end date.

Updated to reflect David Harvey's continued activities.

Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Carl Spinoso (1976-1977) *
Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
Rick Brown (1980) *
Marvin Lamb (1980) *
Donald L. Doans (1981)
Jerry Rowland (1981) *
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Greg Rich (1989)
Steve P. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Rick Gembar (1994)
Bill Monroe (1991-1995) *
Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
Neal Klemmer, Helen Beausoleil, and Jean Swan (all signed the same label) (1996) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997) *
Bobby Osborne (1993-1996) *
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Jeff Allen (2000) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
Charles Derrington (1987-2005) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Doyle Lawson (2003?)
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007) *
Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)
David W. Harvey (2007-Present) *
Sam Bush (2012) *

* Denotes there is a picture of the label in this thread

----------


## Bill McCall

Jerry Rowland 1980, in 83380065, if I understand the numbering correctly.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> Jerry Rowland 1980, in 83380065, if I understand the numbering correctly.


*This* says 1980, assuming that's correct I'll change his listing to reflect that.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Changed to add a year to Jerry Rowland.

Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Carl Spinoso (1976-1977) *
Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
Rick Brown (1980) *
Marvin Lamb (1980) *
Donald L. Doans (1981)
Jerry Rowland (1980-1981) *
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Greg Rich (1989)
Steve P. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Rick Gembar (1994)
Bill Monroe (1991-1995) *
Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
Neal Klemmer, Helen Beausoleil, and Jean Swan (all signed the same label) (1996) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997) *
Bobby Osborne (1993-1996) *
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Jeff Allen (2000) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
Charles Derrington (1987-2005) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Doyle Lawson (2003?)
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007) *
Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)
David W. Harvey (2007-Present) *
Sam Bush (2012) *

* Denotes there is a picture of a signed label in this thread

----------

LKN2MYIS

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Just an added note that is elsewhere in this thread: Although this is called Gibson Head Luthiers it is in reality a list as close as can be determined by labels and records of who signed Gibson and Flatiron labels by year. If you have a signed label that you cannot recognize, a label signed by someone not listed, or have a label with a signature that falls outside the dates listed for the particular signer of labels please post a picture of the label. I'd like to thank the OP for starting this thread an everyone that has contributed. This is actually a nice resource.

----------


## Calforester

Found this listing for an F5-L

Serial No. 80551083

Signed by Gene M Rufel, 5/27/1981

Great history in this thread!

Laura Alber

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Changed to add Gene M. Rufel.

Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Carl Spinoso (1976-1977) *
Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
Rick Brown (1980) *
Marvin Lamb (1980) *
Donald L. Doans (1981)
Jerry Rowland (1980-1981) *
Gene M Rufel (1981) *
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Greg Rich (1989)
Steve P. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Rick Gembar (1994)
Bill Monroe (1991-1995) *
Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
Neal Klemmer, Helen Beausoleil, and Jean Swan (all signed the same label) (1996) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997) *
Bobby Osborne (1993-1996) *
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Jeff Allen (2000) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
Charles Derrington (1987-2005) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Doyle Lawson (2003?)
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007) *
Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)
David W. Harvey (2007-Present) *
Sam Bush (2012) *

----------


## 108 Mile

If Bobby Osborne, Ricky Skaggs and Doyle Lawson etc can be considered for the list, I would suggest Dennis Balian be added. He was general manager during the switchover, and had a role in the shop for years with “hands on the mandolins” work…

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Did he sign any labels? Has anyone got an image of a signed label? I'm more than happy to add people if there is something that shows they had a signature on a label. We have a few Gibson General managers that signed labels.

The subject is misleading. What it says isn't what this turned out to be.

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...=1#post1836126

----------

108 Mile

----------


## 108 Mile



----------


## MikeEdgerton

Can anyone determine the actual spelling of the name on that label? I don't want to guess and get it wrong.

----------


## 108 Mile

Most often misspelled name ever….lol!  Dennis A Balian

----------


## 108 Mile

https://zetaviolins.com/dennis-balian

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Added Dennis A. Balian:

Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Carl Spinoso (1976-1977) *
Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
Rick Brown (1980) *
Marvin Lamb (1980) *
Donald L. Doans (1981)
Jerry Rowland (1980-1981) *
Gene M Rufel (1981) *
Dennis A. Balien (1988) * 
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Greg Rich (1989)
Steve P. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Rick Gembar (1994)
Bill Monroe (1991-1995) *
Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
Neal Klemmer, Helen Beausoleil, and Jean Swan (all signed the same label) (1996) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997) *
Bobby Osborne (1993-1996) *
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Jeff Allen (2000) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
Charles Derrington (1987-2005) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Doyle Lawson (2003?)
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007) *
Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)
David W. Harvey (2007-Present) *
Sam Bush (2012) *

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Another clarifying note. Gibson purchased Flatiron in 1987. Flatiron labels signed after that time are technically Gibson products built by Gibson employees.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Mac Morris, 1980. No label yet but an ad for an F5L sold at Carter's that mentions the instrument, signature and date.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Added Mac Morris:

Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
Carl Spinoso (1976-1977) *
Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
Rick Brown (1980) *
Marvin Lamb (1980) *
Mac Morris (1980)
Donald L. Doans (1981)
Jerry Rowland (1980-1981) *
Gene M Rufel (1981) *
Dennis A. Balien (1988) *
Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
Greg Rich (1989)
Steve P. Carlson (1986-1993) *
Rick Gembar (1994)
Bill Monroe (1991-1995) *
Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
Neal Klemmer, Helen Beausoleil, and Jean Swan (all signed the same label) (1996) *
Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997) *
Bobby Osborne (1993-1996) *
Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
Jeff Allen (2000) *
Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
Charles Derrington (1987-2005) *
Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
Doyle Lawson (2003?)
Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007) *
Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)
David W. Harvey (2007-Present) *
Sam Bush (2012) * 

* Signed label in thread

----------

108 Mile

----------

