# General Mandolin Topics > Mandolin Cafe News Discussions >  The F-5L Mandolin - A turning point in the history of Gibson's ac

## NewsFetcher

The Mandolin Cafe has posted news:
The F-5L Mandolin - A turning point in the history of Gibson's acoustic string instruments
http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/publish/mandolins_001217.shtml

Roger Siminoff recounts his days working with Gibson during the 1970s and time that saw the birth of the F-5L and Gibson's return to once again building great mandolins.

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## wjsandman

Thank you so much for both your efforts in returning Gibson to old school craftsmanship and for this article.

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## Mike Bromley

Lovely Story.  And no, Roger, no trace of any vainglory.  It's clear you loved what you were doing.

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## Michael Lewis

Excellent article from a hero of mine.  Thanks Roger.

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## grassrootphilosopher

This is a nice piece of history revisited. It also shows the initial efforts that several people undertook to raise production standards and quality.

I also appreciate the nod towards Charlie Derrington and Dave Harvey and their efforts.

All in all this is an excellent read.

(And as a sidenote I´d like to see and hear more of Bill Halsey´s mandolins)

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## Skip Kelley

Very nice story! A great read!!

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## MikeEdgerton

Without a doubt this is historical information first hand that needs to be preserved. Wonderful.

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## violmando

Great story--thank you for sharing your history with us; it's so important to keep this all alive. Hey, can we have more like this? It's addicting and exciting to read about all the details!

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## JEStanek

Great history on the great Gibson Mandolin Revival.  Thanks, Roger.

Jamie

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## JimRym

Great article, Roger.  I'd love to hear your take on the current crop of Gibson F5L's and Gibson acoustic instruments in general.  The topic is always fodder for a lively debate. -Jim

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## woodwizard

I'm a sucker for Gibson history, very enjoyable read. Thanks for all you did for Gibson.

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## BadeInBulverde

It just doesn't get any better than a first hand historical account!!!  Thanks Roger!

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## Bernie Daniel

Thanks for the detailed historical account of a great chapter in American mandolin history.  This was a huge piece of the story

I knew that Roger had played a role in it but I had no idea how amazingly involved that he actually was.  And even better anyone can go to Roger's website, look up his number and end up getting advice right from him in real time!  

Fantastic job Roger we all owe you big time!

Now can someone fill in the Carlson/Weber/Flatiron part!  (<:

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## rhicksnm

Thank you, Roger, for writing this article. It is so important for its historical significance. If not for you and your Gibson team, the original Loar F-5 concept would have been lost. We who love the mandolin appreciate your great contribution to its revival and continuing improvement.

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## sgarrity

Great article.  Thanks Roger!!

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## Nelson Peddycoart

Thank you for the article.  I could read stuff like this all day!

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## Mike Romkey

What a fascinating tale! Thanks for everything you've done for mandolins and mandolin players.

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## D C Blood

I have a question...In 1996 I bought an F-5L at Gruhn's.  It was a 1982 model, very clearly marked on the label. (can't remember the exact date.)  Also very clearly marked was the signature.  It was signed by Steve Carlson.  Now I know he was not supposed to have been at Gibson until what? '86 or '87 or something like that?  But I know it was his signature as I had grown up as a Phillies fan and I immediately noted the similarity in his name to the Phillies great pitcher Steve Carlton.  Is there some way Carlson could have been there and signed that 1982 F-5L?  Unfortunately I didn't keep it, as I traded it back to Gruhn later.   Somebody help here...

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## jim_n_virginia

GREAT story! Thanks for all your work you deserve it Roger! I am on my second F-5L and I couldn't ask for a finer mandolin!

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## Plectrosaurus

Thanks for posting this article. I enjoyed reading about the 're-invention' of the 'Gibson' mandolin. A great article for those whose interest in the mandolin is deeper than just playing one.

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## bropete

Thank you Roger.

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## Rich Evans

Great article Roger. It was a real treat seeing you play the prototype F5L on Friday night at Parkfield. It must make you feel a real sense of accomplishment to see the mandolins Gibson had made in the last 10 years.

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## Bernie Daniel

If it exists, and if Roger approves, could anyone post a video of this performance? (referred to in the post #22 above)  Thanks!

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## hank

Roger your modesty is amazingly LARGE considering your contributions to acoustic excellence and the revival of Gibsons Master Model Mandolins.  Your selfless dedication and hard work are the foundation so many stand upon today.  Great read for "The rest of the story".

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## Denny Gies

Loved it, thanks.

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## siminoff

My deep appreciation to each of you for your kind and generous comments; I'm glad you found the story to be informative. I would also like to thank Scott Tichenor for recognizing the value of this piece and bringing it into MCs archives. Regarding Steve Carlson, when Gibson began its move from Kalamazoo to Nashville in June, 1984, the company began outsourcing certain models to outside firms, and Flatiron Mandolins (Steve's company in Bozeman, MT) was selected for mandolin production. As a result, for about two years, the F-5Ls were not made in Kalamazoo, were not deflection tuned, and were somewhat different from those made before and after the move. (I have no idea how Steve Carlson could have signed an F-5L with a 1982 date.)
Roger

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## MikeEdgerton

Roger wrote: "Regarding Steve Carlson, when Gibson began its move from Kalamazoo to Nashville in June, 1984, the company began outsourcing certain models to outside firms, and Flatiron Mandolins (Steve's company in Bozeman, MT) was selected for mandolin production. As a result, for about two years, the F-5Ls were not made in Kalamazoo, were not deflection tuned, and were somewhat different from those made before and after the move..."

Now there's a historical nugget of information.

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## f5loar

I remember it like yesterday one summer night in 1986 when I was sitting down at the Station Inn in Nashville and in walked Charlie Derrington and some other big wheels at Gibson with Steve Carlson.  Charlie told me that night about the deal with Flaitiron and I knew a new era for Gibson mandolins had begun.  A Steve Carlson signed 1982 F5L?  Impossible I say.
Steve working on a 1982 F5L later on say in 1987 and back dating a signed label?  Not likely.  Somebody else having a name similiar to Steve Carlson and signing in 1982.  Possible as it seems the floor sweepers would walk by the F5L bench and sign the labels.

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## Bernie Daniel

Roger: "Regarding Steve Carlson, when Gibson began its move from Kalamazoo to Nashville in June, 1984, the company began outsourcing certain models to outside firms, and Flatiron Mandolins... was selected for mandolin production. As a result, for about two years, the F-5Ls were not made in Kalamazoo, were not deflection tuned, and were somewhat different from those made before and after the move....

As Mike notes that is a great piece of information.  

I'd be interested hearing about how Gibson handled QA/QC issues for the mandolins during this period.  

My point is NOT to question any aspect of production or to suggest quality faded or even changed. I'm merely curious as to how this might have been done.   

The Flatiron produced F5-L's were not "deflection tuned" but were they at least tap tuned?   (Reading Roger's article it would seem that the deflection tuning something the Gibson mandolin crew developed and was neat way to remove listener bias and subjectivity from the tap tuning process) 

But even if they did not have the deflection tuning jig in Montana I would guess the Montana luthiers could still tap tuned them  by ear.  Even if they did Roger's point is certainly well taken -- these 1984 - 1986 F5-L were not made exactly like the 1978 - 1983 instruments and then post 1986 models.  

Who is going to pick up and continue Roger's F5-L story?

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## banjer23

Wow,,amazing reading,,a lot of history from Roger,,thanks to all!!!

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## Bernie Daniel

f5loar: "...A Steve Carlson signed 1982 F5L?  Impossible I say.  Steve working on a 1982 F5L later on say in 1987 and back dating a signed label?  Not likely.  Somebody else having a name similiar to Steve Carlson and signing in 1982.  Possible as it seems the floor sweepers would walk by the F5L bench and sign the labels."

With no disrespect at all intended to the member stating the existence of a 1982 Carlson-signed F5-L -- it is noted that this claim seems to be based entirely on memory.  All memories are subject to error.  Without a picture or a written statement of record it is pointless to go much further with this because the odds seem high that somewhere along the line an error exists.  

As per Roger's article, Gibson's serial number system in the period 1970-1985 was an eight-digit code.  So if it was a 1982 Gibson F5-L the instrument (thus made in Kalamazoo) the serial number would have been of the 8_ _ _2 _ _ _  format.  In this formula the first three spaces were for the Julian day of the year (155 = June 4th) and the last three spaces a number from 0 to 499 (Kalamazoo plant).

Say it was the 145th F5-L made and it happened to be June 4, 1982 -- this would be a serial number of: 81552145.  Seems to me it would be pretty easy to get a number like this scrambled over time -- say 81525145 -- instrument number 145 made on June 1, 1985.  It sure would be easy for me anyway!

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## Mark Walker

Wow - what a great story!  Thanks Roger!  Thanks Bill, and thanks Ken. 
And Bill - small world.  I never put 2 and 2 together until this article, that you're THAT Bill Halsey!  And just down the road from me here in West Michigan!    Great stuff here!

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## jan burda

What a story.  Being a friend of Bill H., and a maker, I've heard much of the story up until the 1980's.  It would be interesting to hear about the Steve Carlson/ Rem Ferguson involvement up to the present day evolution of the F5-L.  Jan Burda

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## Bill Halsey

Jan, welcome on board the MC!  As I recall, you have a very nice Carlson-signed F-5 in your shop... 
Let's get together and abuse a couple of flat picks!
Soon...

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## mandoisland

Great story! Thanks!

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## MandoNicity

Thanks for such a fact filled and informative article.  Totally fascinating to hear the insiders story on all the Gibson going ons.  Amazing, simply amazing.  

JR

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## GRW3

Periodically, someone will post about the percieved poor quality of '60s and '70s Gibson mandolins. This usually brings on a lot of controversy. Yet in paragraph 4 Mr. Siminoff says essentially the same thing and one of the other contributors talks about collapsing tops as a common occurence. So which is it, were there bad years that need to be avoided or is he mistaken too?

If there was a bad period, what did it span? The Sam Bush mandolin is an F-7 isn't it, made several years after Loar left? Maybe some good mandolins cme out of the lean years so wouldn't it be good to really discuss the issues. And based on his efforts with the guitar, would it be possible to rebuild/recarve a problem instrument into a decent performer?

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## Bernie Daniel

GRW3 stated: "Periodically, someone will post about the percieved poor quality of '60s and '70s Gibson mandolins. This usually brings on a lot of controversy. Yet in paragraph 4 Mr. Siminoff says essentially the same thing and one of the other contributors talks about collapsing tops as a common occurence. So which is it, were there bad years that need to be avoided or is he mistaken too?

If there was a bad period, what did it span? The Sam Bush mandolin is an F-7 isn't it, made several years after Loar left? Maybe some good mandolins cme out of the lean years so wouldn't it be good to really discuss the issues. And based on his efforts with the guitar, would it be possible to rebuild/recarve a problem instrument into a decent performer?"


In my opinion I think most acknowledge (including even some associated with the Gibson company) that mandolin quality suffered for a time which might roughly be the period you suggested early 50's to mid 70's.  So, I personally do not see this as a particularly "controversial" or a taboo subject.

Likewise, most will also note that some very good mandolins were also made during this period - but indeed the quality was "spotty" or less consistent than it might have been.  That is the issue Roger was trying to help Gibson to correct.

Sam Bush's main mandolin, is a Gibson F-5 (not F-7) and it was made over two decades after Loar left.  Further as far as I know it was not re-carved only the finish was scrapped off the top. 

However, many Gibson mandolins from these years have been re-carved or re-voiced -- this is well known also and has often been discussed in detail on this board -- again you imply there is an problem with discussing this matter and I would say clearly there is not.  Some of these mandolins have been dramatically improved by re-graduation -- others not so much -- at least that is my view.

You mentioned a guitar but that is something I am not familiar with.

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## Jordan Ramsey

Hey Bernie, Hoss was re-graduated by Randy Wood.

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## hank

Seems like I remember Sam talking about his mandolin on his Homespun Mandolin Method.  I believe he said it belonged to Norman Blake and that Norman had randomly sanded on the top and later had Randy Wood rework the top, tone bars and refinish with varnish.

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## woodwizard

Ahhhh yes... I believe the expression was hippie sanding. Am I wrong...

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## Bernie Daniel

> Seems like I remember Sam talking about his mandolin on his Homespun Mandolin Method.  I believe he said it belonged to Norman Blake and that Norman had randomly sanded on the top and later had Randy Wood rework the top, tone bars and refinish with varnish.


OK, I stand corrected on that.  I knew about the sanding but if I ever knew about the re-grad I forgot.  

I had a 1952 F-12 re-graduated in Randy Wood's shop some years ago.  I think it improved it significantly -- but the sound was not like like my F-5 Fern -- it was darker and deeper.  

David Grisman has that mandolin now -- or he did have it anyway.   If I ever get the chance I'd like to ask him how he thought it sounded.

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## f5loar

Hoss is a 1937 F5 that had already been refinished by the factory in the 50's.  The 50's lacquer finishes were rather heavy at times so Blake felt it was holding it back and removed the finish and sold it to Sam who had Wood put the finishing touches on it as you see it today.  I know of the 1937 F5 that is still all original that belonged to Dave Apollon and it is a "hoss" too so yes there were some gems during the 30's and 40's and on into the 50's.  The mid 60's is when things started a downward spinal in quality and sound but they still played fine.  By early 70's when the new "redesign" going back to a thick varnish and thinner necks they reached a peak in the dark era for the F5 until Roger got the F5L redesign going in 1978. And if I remember correctly you could still get the bad F5 in 1978 and 1979 as well as the new F5L.   The worst F5L ever made was far superior to the best 70's ever made so that speaks highly of what Roger did accomplish in his involvement at Gibson. I have a question for Roger.  Bill Monroe was given F5L serial no. 11568197 signed on June 1, 1978.  Was that one of the 3 prototypes and if so which one of them?

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## mandolirius

> Ahhhh yes... I believe the expression was hippie sanding. Am I wrong...


Random hippie sanding. You need all three words for the expression to attain its full comedic value.

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## Bernie Daniel

> .... so yes there were some gems [Gibson F-style mandolins] during the 30's and 40's and on into the 50's.  The mid 60's is when things started a downward spinal in quality and sound but they still played fine.  By early 70's when the new "redesign" going back to a thick varnish and thinner necks they reached a peak in the dark era for the F5 until Roger got the F5L redesign going in 1978. And if I remember correctly you could still get the bad F5 in 1978 and 1979 as well as the new F5L.   The worst F5L ever made was far superior to the best 70's ever made so that speaks highly of what Roger did accomplish in his involvement at Gibson....


Thanks for that additional bit of information.  Your information along with Roger's article, reading of past comments on the Cafe, as well as some PM's I think I am finally starting to see the complete outline of the entire "rise,fall, and revive" story of the Gibson F-5.   

Someone really needs to write a book or a least a long essay -- like Roger's but taking the story back and then forward from where Roger started and ended -- including the Flatiron/Carlson and Nashville/Derrington parts of the story.

I agree the early 1970's was, apparently, the lowest point in the F-5's evolution.  I owned two of them -- a 1972 F-12 and a 1972/3 F-5.   Both had the straight slot neck joint and the  "intermediate" slope or rise of the fretboard (relative to the top plate).  (This fretboard elevation pattern started in 1951 and was intermediate between the F-2/F-4 (and the pre-1951 F5/F-12) fretboards that laid ON the top and the original Loar F-5 that raised the fingerboard high off the top board.)

(It seems to me that for some reason when Gibson restarted F-style mandolins after WWII they completely abandoned the Loar F-5 template for a while?  I have seen at least 4 post-1948 and pre-1951 F-12's that had the F-2/F-4 style fretboard.  So was it Roger than that finally brought the high rise (Loar-style) fretboard back with the F-5L?)

These two early '70's mandolins of mine were beautiful mandolins to look at but in addition to the neck joint and "inferior" fretboard raiser they had very thick top plates and were covered with a heavy finish coats.  As a result both of mine from this time sounded pretty dull and "thuddy".  In fact my Morgan Monroe MM-3 was essentially equal to the two Gibsons.

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## Scott Tichenor

Roger asked me to post this because the content included an image and the ability to post those within this section commenting on news articles is turned off.

This post Roger authored references this image:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/at...1&d=1274463299

===
The story of what happened to the F-model line in the early '70s is interesting, amusing, and sad. While the change of each feature has its own unique story, the one that intrigues me the most is the modification to the shape of the soundboards and backboards, and the resultant removal of the recurve (thus making the boards too thick in that region). Early on, the soundboards and backboards were carved on a pattern carver, lengthwise, one at a time, as the company did its carved guitar models (see photo ca.1972 - a Citation guitar soundboard is ready to be carved). In the interest of production, someone got the bright idea that the bed of the pattern carver  was large enough that two mandolin patterns could be set up at once if the patterns were simply turned 90° - basically carving two boards side-by-side. This would cut the machining time in half. On the carver, the table moved back and forth and the cutting head and following wheel (joined together as one unit) moved up and down; basically, as the following wheel rolled up and down over the pattern, the cutting head moved up and down in unison over the piece to be cut. Well, the carver's head was rather delicately balanced - heavy and sturdy as it was. So, when the bed began moving, the following wheel would come out of the recurve of one pattern, skip over the recurve of the neighboring pattering, land with a clunk about 2" into the work, and the cutter would put a ding in the neighboring soundboard (or backboard). And, of course, this happened again when the machine's bed began moving in the opposite direction. So, someone (I'll leave names out of this story) got the brilliant idea to "just fill in the little low area [i.e., recurve] and the cutter won't bounce!" The recurves were filled, and the problem was solved - at least from a production standpoint. Sad, but true. (Dealer and owner complaints eventually forced the modification to be reversed but the replacement patterns were more poorly graduated than their predecessors.)

As to the F5L gifted to Monroe, yes, it is in the hands of a private owner, and I'll check with him to see if he wants to chime in.

Thanks for all your interesting viewpoints on this story...
Roger

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## Bill Junior

I am the current owner of the 1978 F5L that was given to Bill Monroe by the Gibson Company as a peace offering.  Roger Siminoff asked if would chime in with what information I have on the instrument.  Here is all that I know. If anyone else has any information about this mandolin, I would love to hear from them.

After the NAMM show, Roger encouraged Gibson to present a new F5L mandolin to Mr. Monroe as a gift to help mend fences with the Father of Bluegrass.   Sometime later, the Gibson Company gave Monroe one of the F5L prototypes.  This mandolin was signed by Gibson luthier Aaron Cowles on June 20, 1978, and bears the serial number, 71568197.  According to Roger, this mandolin was finished on June 5th.  And, if that's the case, yours had to be one of the first three (and I think I remember Aaron completing his first).  On the first half-dozen instruments, Roger tap tuned the mandolin before the body was closed, so this one would have been tuned personally by Roger. 

When I first acquired the mandolin, all I knew is that it had been owned and used by Monroe.  As a Big Mon disciple, that was good enough for me.  But one day I got a call from a friend of mine, Tom McKinney, of Asheville, North Carolina, and he said, Theres a publicity photo of Bill Monroe holding your mandolin.  I confess I was skeptical, but Tom was right.  After carefully comparing the headstocks of the two mandolins, specifically the inlays, I realized it was the very same mandolin.  I didnt know of any publicity photos of Monroe with anything other than his 1923 Loarespecially late in his career.  That started me on a little research project to find out what I could about the instrument.  I dont know if anyone else feels the same way I do about this, but most of us go through dozens of vintage instruments in our lives and dont know anything about the provenance or history of these things, and thats a shame.  So, I wanted to find out all I could.

Last year, the Mandolin Café posted a little audio clip of Monroe on stage where he talks about mending fences with the Gibson Company.  Monroe mentions acquiring the 1923 Gibson mandolin in a barber shop, the subsequent feud with Gibson, and how in 1978 Gibson convinced Monroe to have the Loar-signed instrument worked on back in Kalamazoo, Michigan.  At the end, Monroe says, And in the deal, they give me that new mandolin there in a brand new case.  This F5-L mandolin is what he refers to as that new mandolin there. 

Monroe played the 1978 F5L mandolin quite often when his number one mandolin was unavailable, such as in the 1980 White House concert for President Jimmy Carter.  In December 1981, I saw Monroe using the F5L to play My Last Days on Earth at an Orlando concert.  So for at least some of the time, Monroe had the F5L in that alternate mandolin tuning.  

Monroe used the F5L as his primary instrument after the infamous November 1985 vandal incident, in which an intruder smashed both of Monroes Loar-signed mandolins.  Curtis McPeake verified that Monroe used the F5L for a year or more until his 1923 Gibson was repaired by Charlie Derrington.  As evidence, Monroe was filmed using the F5L at a 1986 Colorado concert in the Scott Wright documentary titled, High, Blue, and Lonesome.

So how did I come to acquire the mandolin?  Bill Monroe was good friends with a Nashville-area police officer, Bill Hawkins.  Mr. Hawkins was not a professional musician, but played locally as an avocation.  Hawkins did a lot of favors for Monroe, such as helping to feed livestock when the Blue Grass Boys were on the road.  I understand Officer Hawkins was one of those called to the scene after the vandal incident, and helped gather mandolin pieces up into a paper bag.  Sometime in the late 1980s or early 90s, Bill Monroe saw Mr. Hawkins in town and called him over to his vehicle.  Monroe said, I have something here I want to give you.  It was the 1978 F5L mandolin.  Bill Hawkins treasured the F5L mandolin and played it until his passing.  In the summer of 2005, the mandolin was brought to McPeakes Unique Instruments, in Mount Joliet, Tennessee, and made available for sale; I purchased the mandolin from Curtis.

Sometime during its life, the mandolin lost its original pickguard, tailpiece, and bridge.  I repaired a crumbling bone point on the lower bout.  Other than that, the mandolin is intact and includes the original case.  I recently took the F5L mandolin to Bruce Weber in Logan, Montana, for a review.  After looking the instrument over for quite some time, studying the smallest details, Mr. Weber said he was impressed with the workmanship.  

I have played a few Loar-signed Gibson mandolins over the years, and I think the power and tone of this F5L mandolin is comparable.  As Big Mon, himself, would have said, its a wonderful instrument.  Im glad the behind-the-scenes story of the F5Ls development has been revealed.  Roger and everyone involved in making those early Gibson F5L mandolins should be proud of what they did.

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## carleshicks

I would love to see some pics of this mando. Also another note Aaron Cowles is still alive and building archtop guitars and mandolins in Vicksburg Mi. His instuments are built using the name Jubal .

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## Danny Clark

i agree with F5Loar ,about the bad years for Gibson, i have easily owned over 100 Gibson mandolins ,everything from 20's F-5's to 2010 F-5's , i have experienced good and bad from almost every decade, some of the worst i remember were a 1949 F-12,and a 1981 F-5,and surprising i also owned a killer sounding 1976 F-5,
good or bad i am still a Gibson fan.

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## Bill Halsey

Bill Junior, that is an important addition to the F-5L story, very well-written.  Thank you so much for joining us!

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## Bernie Daniel

Thanks Bill Junior!  This remarkable story just keeps growing.  Two things:

1) Now that this piece in the life of 71568197 has been elucidated can some of you who had personal contact with Monroe over the years in question (circa 1978 to the early '90's) take a look at your photos and recordings again to see if still photos or audio and video tape of this mandolin in action on stage?   

2) I don't completely follow the end number sequence of "197" of this mandolin.  Shouldn't the number of this mandolin have been something like 71568003?  Since it was the third F5-L where the last three digits 001 to 499 indicated the Kalamazoo plant?

Maybe a different way to think about it is how does this mandolin made by Aaron Cowles relate to the other prototype mentioned in Roger's original essay?   To quote the article:
"Gibson F-5L #71598129, one of the three prototypes made for the Summer 1978 NAMM show in Chicago. This instrument was built by Gibson luthier Wilbur Fuller."   This one would have been signed on June 9, 1978 159) but it carries #129 as the last three digits?

I guess this last part of the number (197 vs 129) must refer to some other aspect of the Gibson instrument production process?

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## hank

Bernie I came up with 159=June 8th 156=June 5th.  Am I correct that Aaron Cowles signature date June 20th is the finished product where the serial number date is the finished in the white date?  I'm baffled as well on the last three digits unless they were considered prototype with special designators specific to each of those three builds with #001 starting after the first three prototypes.  I didn't see in my search how to read modern Gibson serial numbers but I'm guessing from my FGR signed April 13th 2006 by Casey O'Sullivan 60413020 that the first and second or first and sixth digits=year with the third=the month and the fourth and fifth the day. The sequential number at the end with either the last three or two digits. year 06, month April, day 13th, the twentieth F5Gold Rush.

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## edance

I am not tooup on Gibson Mandoin serial numbering system. One of the threads state that from 1970 to 1985 Gibson used eight digit numbers. My F-12 has six numbers.  417904 I bought this instrument new in 1974 or 75. Can some one provide the meaning of this nmber?

Ed

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## f5loar

Ed,  A 400000 number would be made in 1974/75 so sounds like yours is indeed a 1974 most likely if you got in late 1974 or early 1975 as there was some lag time on delivery from time of order on the F5s and F12 both still custom ordered instruments.
These years and numbers can be found in Gruhn's Guide To Vintage Instruments.

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## Bernie Daniel

Hank:  "Bernie I came up with 159=June 8th 156=June 5th."

We could both be right it varies one number for a leap year for any date after Feb. 29th. (:

edance: "...threads state that from 1970 to 1985 Gibson used eight digit numbers. My F-12 has six numbers..." 

Yes, the 1990 F5-L I looked at last week had 6 numbers as well and did not follow the 8-digit model described either.

(wish I knew why the "reply with quote" and "advanced" button do not work about half the time -- I'm thinking it happens mostly with Firefox)

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## Bill Junior

In response to the question about hearing the 1978 F5L in action, here are a couple of options.  There is a video segment at the end of the first Monroe mandolin instructional DVD by Homsepun, which shows the 1980 concert at the White House.  Bill Monroe is playing the 1978 F5L at this event.  It was still relatively new at the time.  In addition, Smithsonian Folkways produced several records with Bill Monroe and Doc Watson, and I know that at least one song, Paddy on the Turnpike, was taken from that White House concert in 1980.  I am sure the DVD now available will allow folks to hear the tonal characteristics of the mandolin much better than the video.  There may be other tunes from that event that have been produced on a record, but I havent had time to thoroughly research that question.  

Here are the details.

The Mandolin of Bill Monroe (DVD One)
One-On-One with the Master
Smithsonian Folkway Recordings and Homespun Video


Bill Monroe & Doc Watson
Live Recordings 1963-1980:  Off the Record Volume 2
Smithsonian Folkway Recordings

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## f5loar

Bill,  In that promo photo of Monroe with this F5L you will notice a rather large piece of wood stuffed up in the lower end of the pickguard.  Do you know why Monroe had to put in that piece of wood on this mandolin?

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## Bernie Daniel

> In response to the question about hearing the 1978 F5L in action, here are a couple of options.  There is a video segment at the end of the first Monroe mandolin instructional DVD by Homsepun, which shows the 1980 concert at the White House.  Bill Monroe is playing the 1978 F5L at this event.  It was still relatively new at the time....


Great tip!  The DVD has five numbers played on the F5-L by Monroe:  Uncle Pen, Blue Moon of Kentucky, Rawhide, Rabbit in a log and Paddy on the Turnpike beautiful video of the mandolin and the performers -- it seems like a thousand years ago....

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## Bill Junior

F5Loar:

That's a good question.  It does look like a piece of wood, maybe a dowel, stuck under the pickguard.  I don't know anything about that.  

Or could it just be a strange reflection in the mandolin finish?

Junior

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## Bernie Daniel

> Bill,  In that promo photo of Monroe with this F5L you will notice a rather large piece of wood stuffed up in the lower end of the pickguard.  Do you know why Monroe had to put in that piece of wood on this mandolin?


Can you provide a link to that pic?  Thanks!

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## evanreilly

I always thought it was a cork that Bill had placed under the pickguard to keep it from vibrating/shaking loose when he beat on it.
the picture is the Decca/MCA promo picture that was current then. 
I have it somewhere and when I find it, I'll scan it.

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## f5loar

The story of the piece of wood goes back to when I went to see Monroe at a show in NC on 2/7/1986.  He had the F5L with the pickguard on it and I asked him backstage before the show why was there a piece of wood jammed under it.  He says he calls this mandolin "old Rattler" and then took out the piece of wood and showed me how it would make a really bad rattle when it did not have the hand carved piece of wood under it.  Dumb me asked Monroe why didn't he just take the pickguard off since he was use to picking without one anyway.  And his exact words were " Oh I can't hardly do that it was on there when they give it to me". It's an old folks belief that if someone gives you a gift you are not suppose to alter it in anyway as they may want it back. So Monroe simply adapted for the problem without altering the mandolin.  I then handed him my '23 F5 without the pickguard and he was most appreciative to be able to pick it that night.  He even got inspired enough to perform his newly written instrumental "Lloyd Loar" on it.  The next week I called Charlie Derrington at Gibson and told him about the pickguard problem and said it was not good for Gibson's image for Monroe going around with a piece of wood jammed up in the pickguard.  Charlie got the mandolin back from Monroe for a quick repair and removed the pickguard and gave it back to him.  So that would be what happened to that pickguard.  Most agree that particular '78 F5L is one of the best they ever made.

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## Bill Halsey

More great history from one who lived it.  Thank you, Tom!

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## siminoff

Don't let the sequence of the last three numbers throw you. This was the number assigned to that instrument of all the instruments in the Gibson plant that were in the final white-wood sequence that day. So, for example, one number lower it could have been a Les Paul, and one number higher could have been a jumbo acoustic guitar, etc.
Roger

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## Bernie Daniel

> Don't let the sequence of the last three numbers throw you. This was the number assigned to that instrument of all the instruments in the Gibson plant that were in the final white-wood sequence that day. So, for example, one number lower it could have been a Les Paul, and one number higher could have been a jumbo acoustic guitar, etc.
> Roger


Thanks Roger.  I kinda eventually came to a conclusion that it was something like that.

But its still a bit confusing if because it was specified that 0 - 499 is Kalamazoo plant production and 500 and above is some other production site?  

Maybe that was an original stipulation that was never adhered to?

I say this because it seems to me that one 3-digit number can't specify both the daily production as well as the production site.   

Actually its not a big deal because this system which DOES give the year and day in the first 5 numbers is much better than most of Gibson's numbering systems over the years!  (<:


Anyway thanks for the great history -- its great that it is now recorded for all to read.

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## Bernie Daniel

F5loar: "Most agree that particular '78 F5L is one of the best they ever made". 

For some unknown reason all the best mandolins ended up in Monroe's hands!  (<:

Divine intervention?

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## Bill Junior

F5Loar:

The wood stuck in the pickguard incident is 'Classic Monroe.'  Great story.  And I am glad to hear Big Mon gave the instrument a name.  I've tried out a couple different names for it but was never quite saitisfied with them.  Now I know what to call it:  Old Rattler.

Junior

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## f5loar

If I remember Monroe had a dog named Old Rattler after the Grandpa Jones song.  Funny he did call that mandolin that due to the problem with the pickguard but I don't recall a nickname for his No. 1 mandolin.

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## Bill Halsey

Well, I know of one nickname Mon had intended for #73987.  When I heard him explain his reason for leaving the word "The" in the headstock, he said had in mind to get someone to inlay a replacement for the company name so it would read "The Thing".

Of course, all that has long since been laid to rest, much to Gibson's credit.

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## carleshicks

That would have been pretty funny. He could have went down in History as the guy that played The Thing.

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## Bill Junior

Fellows:

Regarding his trusty 1923 Gibson, Monroe did name that instrument, but not until the twilight of his life.  I got this information from Bruce Weber, who was there.  In about 1995, Monroe came out here to Bozeman, Montana, maybe to visit the Gibson factory, and as part of his tour some folks took him to Yellowstone Park.  He was so taken with his experience at one of the park's signature sites, that he decided to name his mandolin, "Old Faithful."  When you consider the length of Monroe's amazing career and the role that mandolin played in it, I can't think of a better name for the instrument.   

Not many people know this story.  

Junior

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## hank

I'm glad Gibson straightened that out.  Old Faithful is way more better than The Thing.

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## Jim Triggs

I have enjoyed reading this thread with great information regarding the F5L and Roger Siminoff’s importance in Gibson history. If it wasn’t for Roger’s book and efforts no one knows where the mandolin’s place in today’s music market would be. I may have some anecdotal additions to the Bill Monroe story regarding his relationship with Gibson which many may not be aware of. Sorry this is kind of a long read.

Last year when rumors began surfacing about Monroe’s headplate being auctioned I had an interest in checking out the story. Several people contacted me asking if I knew anything about it. Over the years I had never heard that his original headplate existed and while working at Gibson I never recall Charlie Derrington mentioning it. With that being said, I did hear plenty about the restoration that Charlie and several other Custom Shop employees did on Monroe’s July 9th Loar. I didn’t have a hand in that project as I didn’t start with Gibson until the Fall of 1986 but Monroe’s other Loar (that was also damaged)was in my possession for a period of 8-10 months right when I started. It was on my bench and I used it for reference in constructing the first F-5 prototypes that I built there. I didn’t do any restoration work to that mandolin but I did fit the bridge and do all of the final setup work.

My curiosity about the headplate lead me to make two phone calls to investigate. First I called Tim Shaw. Tim was my former boss in the Custom Shop at Gibson. He worked for them while they were still in Kalamazoo and I thought he may know something about the repair. When asked about a saved peghead off of Monroe’s mandolin Tim was surprised to hear that one existed. He went on to mention that the repair department had a 2”x4” aluminum bar that was placed on a hot plate. When removing a headplate they would heat up the aluminum and set it on the peghead. Within minutes of applying heat the headplate would come off easily. The thing I found interesting is that he said after this process there would be a 2”x4” brand burnt right in the middle of the headplate and that the ivoroid celluloid binding would have lit up and melted with the intense heat.

My next call was to George Gruhn. He also hadn’t ever heard that the peghead was saved and doubted that it existed. We went on to talk about Monroe’s Loar for a while and  discussed the fall-out between Monroe and Gibson and him carving their logo off of the peghead. He then told me if I wanted to hear the story of how Monroe and Gibson made amends I should ask the man that got them back together. He said I should call Billy Grammer. I was surprised to hear that Billy got Monroe and Gibson on speaking terms again. George insisted that I just call him up. I mentioned to George that I didn’t know Billy was still alive and he said, “He may be old but he’s certainly not dead”, and then gave me Billy’s number. He told me it may take a couple times to reach him but once you get a hold of him expect a thorough version of the story.

After trying to get a hold of Mr. Grammer for two days he finally answered. He was pretty tight-lipped the first five minutes or so while I was telling him who I was. I filled him in on my history with Gibson and mentioned that I dealt with Monroe for six years and had set up his mandolin during my time there. I told him George Gruhn suggested that I call him to get the story about Monroe and Gibson first hand. He said, “I remember it like it was yesterday.” He said he was backstage at The Grand Ole Opry and there were four gentleman from The Gibson factory in Kalamazoo there standing in the hallway. He knew the Gibson folks well as they had built him some custom guitars over the years. Rendall Wall and Jim Duerloo were the ones that he knew. There were two other guys from Gibson there and one was holding a mandolin case.

They told him they had built Monroe a brand new mandolin and that they wanted to patch things up with Bill and get his mandolin fixed the way it should be. This included getting the scroll right and inlaying Gibson back in the peghead. They offered to fly the mandolin back to Michigan with them. They had purchased a seat for it in the First Class section of the plane and also took out a $50,000 insurance policy on the mandolin in case anything happened to it while it was in Gibson’s possession. They said they’d repair it and deliver it back to Monroe in 90 days.

The Gibson folks knew Bill was at the Opry that night but were unsure how to approach him about the repair. One of them asked Billy if he would talk to Monroe for them. Billy went into Monroe’s dressing room and was filling him in on the situation. Bill was apprehensive at first but he changed his tune when Billy asked him why he was mad at Gibson and Monroe said that it had been so long he couldn’t even remember. Billy told Monroe about all of the nice custom guitars he had received from the Gibson factory and how great their quality was at the time. He told Monroe that they had a beautiful new mandolin for him to use while they fixed his old one and told him about the insurance policy and the seat on the plane. He asked Billy if it were him, would he have them do the work. He convinced Monroe that he didn’t have anything to lose and Monroe said he’d do it as he thought the feud had gone on too long and he hated the way the mandolin looked with no scroll on it.

Billy brought in the folks from Gibson and they made their deal with Monroe. He said three months later they delivered the repaired mandolin to Bill’s office which he thought was up in a trailer he had in Goodlettsville at the time. When I asked Billy if he ever heard about the old headplate he said, “I never heard of that and I never saw it. Bill never said anything to me about it so I can’t speak to that but I did help get Monroe and Gibson back together.”

Before my conversation with Mr. Grammer was over he went on to fill me in on how the Opry took away his membership because he was now legally blind. He also told me that Gibson offered him the head QC job at the Nashville plant when they were in the process of moving from Kalamazoo. I thought his story was interesting enough to share with all of you on the cafe. It’s amazing to think that all of this stuff happened 30 years ago now.

For those that don’t know who Billy Grammer is you should look him up. He was a country star known most for his song “Gotta Travel On.” He and his band were playing at the location Gov. George Wallace was giving his speech when there was an assassination attempt on him during his campaign for Presidential Election. He also was the founder and co-owner of Grammer Guitars.

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## f5loar

I knew Grammer had become blind but I did not know that is why he is no longer a member of the Opry.  That's a shame they are doing that to Grammer and some other old time Opry members.  Most gave every weekend of their lives to the Opry for their fans often playing the same No. 1 hit(s) for decades over and over.  I guess Doc Watson never had a chance at becoming a member!
Those of us who lived during the first repair to the peghead of Monroe's Loar felt like the crack in the Liberty Bell had been repaired.  The broken scroll and removed Gibson logo was part of the legend.  While Monroe had independent luithers like Randy Wood to work on his Loar during the Gibson feud years he never asked any of them to fix the peghead when they could have easily done it.  Not long after that you saw the endorsement of the Gibson Monroe Signature Bronze strings.  There was more to it then just a willingness to fix the peghead.  Giving him a new F5L sure helped seal the deal.

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## MikeEdgerton

This thread just gets better by the day. Thanks to all for adding this piece of history to the mandolin world.

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## Sergio Lara

If you own one of these period Gibson F-5L's please check out this thread:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?62134-Gibson-F-5L-from-78-82-Serial-numbers-and-information.

Thanks,

Serge

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## Bill Halsey

> My curiosity about the headplate lead me to make two phone calls to investigate. First I called Tim Shaw. Tim was my former boss in the Custom Shop at Gibson. He worked for them while they were still in Kalamazoo and I thought he may know something about the repair. When asked about a saved peghead off of Monroe’s mandolin Tim was surprised to hear that one existed. He went on to mention that the repair department had a 2”x4” aluminum bar that was placed on a hot plate. When removing a headplate they would heat up the aluminum and set it on the peghead. Within minutes of applying heat the headplate would come off easily. The thing I found interesting is that he said after this process there would be a 2”x4” brand burnt right in the middle of the headplate and that the ivoroid celluloid binding would have lit up and melted with the intense heat.


The headstock restoration on #73987 was performed by Gibson mandolin maker Dick Doan.  (Dick was one of the three mandolin makers at Gibson during the F-5L project, and built one of those prototypes.)

I just gave Dick a call, and with his kind permission I can say that he confirmed the method of removing the headstock veneer.  He told me that he set a hot metal plate on it until he could work a knife under the veneer, then off it came.  He said that operation would sometimes damage the bindings, but perhaps this one came off more easily.

Dick verified that the instrument retained its original neck, and that he had restored the headstock scroll and replaced the headstock veneer and fingerboard, and that Abe Wechter tinted the new bindings to match the old body bindings.

I also spoke with my old band buddy Pat Mertaugh, who was an adjuster at Gibson for many years, and had done the final setup on Mon's mandolin before it was returned.  He said someone snapped a photo of him with that instrument before it went out -- I'll see if I can make a copy of it to post here, sometime.

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## f5loar

Bill,  sounds like you would know who made the F5s from 1970 to 1978.  Care to list those names?  Did one luthier build the whole mandolin or was it done in stages with different guys doing different stages in the mandolin?

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## Jim Hilburn

http://blog.mlive.com/kalamazoo_gaze...n_my_life.html

Following this thread has made me do some looking around online and I came up with this.

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## Jim Hilburn

I'm not sure i did that link correctly.

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## Bill Halsey

> Bill,  sounds like you would know who made the F5s from 1970 to 1978.  Care to list those names?  Did one luthier build the whole mandolin or was it done in stages with different guys doing different stages in the mandolin?


Tom, I knew only the three mandolin makers who were in that department in 1977 - 78 during the F-5L project; viz., Aaron Cowles, Wilbur Fuller and Dick Doan.  As I recall, the makers would receive the ribs & blocks glued up as an assembly, the necks were roughed on machines and of course the fingerboards and head veneers were made up ahead of time as well.  Each mandolin maker had his own bench, and they were lined up in front of the bottom level west windows near the front of the old building (see the "tap tuning" photos in Roger's piece -- that's one of the mandolin makers' benches).  (Sorry, I don't know if my link will work here -- something weird about this thread.)

At any rate, it was each mandolin maker's job to graduate and assemble the instrument, bandsaw and carve the scroll, set the neck, etc.  I'll try to get in a little chat time with these guys and see what else I can learn for the record.

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## MandoNicity

> This thread just gets better by the day. Thanks to all for adding this piece of history to the mandolin world.


I agree.  Fascinating.

JR

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## MikeEdgerton

Links don't work in this section. To get to Jim's link above cut and paste the following into your browser:

http://blog.mlive.com/kalamazoo_gazette_extra/2007/12/gibson_has_been_my_life.html

Do the same with Bill's link here:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/publish/mandolins_001217.shtml

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## f5loar

I'd like to know if those 3 guys were there in 1970 when the major changes were made from the previous postwar F5.
That would be interesting to hear of who came up with all those changes to the F5.

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## Bill Halsey

"I'd like to know if those 3 guys were there in 1970 when the major changes were made from the previous postwar F5."

I think they all were there in 1970, Tom -- surely, Aaron Cowles and Wilbur Fuller were.

I should mention that Gibson employees could bid on different job openings according to seniority, provided they were qualified at the requisite skill and experience levels.  "Mandolin maker" was considered a plum position, so those in that department usually stayed there for a long time.

   "That would be interesting to hear of who came up with all those changes to the F5."

Very good question.  It seems that Wilbur Marker may have had something to do with going retro on the F-5 headstocks (and possibly the revival of the lovely "Paramount" style fiddle headstock on the banjos, as well).  

My guesswork here is pretty foggy, so I'll do some digging for real facts.  Likely it'll take me a while, but I'm sure a lot of the information is still available first-hand.  Of course, it would be best if those who actually lived it could put it down here in their own words.  However, interaction with the internet understandably does not necessarily appeal to everyone, so perhaps I can do a little field work and try to gather a few answers.  I'll get back when I have something solid.

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## Bill Junior

Within the last year, I talked to Aaron Cowles about his 1978 F5L mandolin.  All these years had passed and he was still unaware that his mandolin was the one chosen to go to Bill Monroe.  I wonder--is there anyone out there who knows why this particular mandolin was selected as a gift to Big Mon.  Was it the first one made?  Was it the best sounding of the lot?  Was it the prettiest?  Was it the one that sounded the most like his 1923 Loar?  Or was it the only finished F5L left unaccounted for at the time?  There must have been some criteria used in the selection process.

During the discussion about building the instrument, Aaron also mentioned the fact that none of the three mandolin luthiers there at Gibson in 1978 knew anything about tap tuning an instrument.  It was Roger Siminoff that re-introduced that technique to the Gibson culture.

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## Bernie Daniel

Certainly Roger's article has stimulated some amazing discussion.  I would not want to intoduce any OT diversions here just raise a point that might be worth following up on later if it is actually possible to do so.  

In post #84 f5loar mentioned one addtional related story (the changes in mandolins that happend in 1970) -- I'm sure that's another great story in Gibson mandolin history.  

In like manner, I want to suggest another "story" that might be harder to investigate -- what decisions/reasons lead up to abandoning the Loar design when the F-5 (and F-12) were re-introduced to the line-up in 1948 (and 1949 respecitvely)?

Then I want to ask a question -- who is going to write a book about all this stuff?

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## MikeEdgerton

Quote from Bill Junior:  Within the last year, I talked to Aaron Cowles about his 1978 F5L mandolin.  All these years had passed and he was still unaware that his mandolin was the one chosen to go to Bill Monroe.  I wonder--is there anyone out there who knows why this particular mandolin was selected as a gift to Big Mon.  Was it the first one made?  Was it the best sounding of the lot?  Was it the prettiest?  Was it the one that sounded the most like his 1923 Loar?  Or was it the only finished F5L left unaccounted for at the time?  There must have been some criteria used in the selection process. 

During the discussion about building the instrument, Aaron also mentioned the fact that none of the three mandolin luthiers there at Gibson in 1978 knew anything about tap tuning an instrument.  It was Roger Siminoff that re-introduced that technique to the Gibson culture.  End Quote

I'm not sure we aren't mixing things up a bit here. The best sounding of the three original 1978 prototypes that were built went to to Roger. Here is the quote from the article that started this discussion:

During the main sales event preceding NAMM, Bruce and Tom invited me to the front of the room. Tom said, "Which of these three would you pick as the very best one for us to put on the show floor?" I played them and looked them over for a moment and said, "This one." Then, Tom and Bruce, thanking me for my help and asking for a round of applause, said, "Well thanks for your great efforts in bringing back one of our earliest models. Put it in its case. We want you to take this one home!"

From what I take from the Bill Graham article about the Bill's headstock repair that took place at a later date, closer to 1980. They gave Monroe a mandolin and promised to return his within 6 months if I recall. That quote is here:

"The work began in the winter of 1980," said Siminoff, a Gibson consultant. "I specifically remember being back to the plant when snow was on the ground, and Monroe's mandolin was there. I have a good visual imprint of the instrument on Dick's workbench and of him working on it. Dick did a really great job rebuilding the scroll and replacing the peghead veneer."

Perhaps Roger can clear this up. I'm not saying that Monroe didn't get a mandolin built by Aaron Cowles, I'm just assuming he got one from the production runs.

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## Bill Junior

Mike:

Sorry if my last post left anyone confused.  It is my understanding that by the time Gibson decided to give an F5L to Monroe, Roger had already left (presumably with his F5L prototype).  Regarding when 'Old Rattler' was made, I can only go by what Roger told me, which is that it was finished on June 5th.  And, if that's the case, yours had to be one of the first three (and I think I remember Aaron completing his first)." 

I guess as time passes there will always be some details to these kind of stories that will never be known.  I think we're lucky to know as much as we do, and most of that is thanks to Roger Siminoff. 

Junior

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## siminoff

First, I'd be remiss if I didn't say a word of thanks to all of you for your interest in this piece of history - it's exciting to read your comments and input. Regarding Mike's and Bill Junior's question about the mandolin given to Bill Monroe, F5L #71568197 was one of the first three prototypes (although for some reason this one did not get a "prototype" stamp on the back of the peghead). However, it was not made specifically for Monroe; it just happened to be one of the earliest F5Ls that was finished at the time the Gibson marketing folks agreed to give one to Monroe. While Mike extracted from my article that "the best sounding one went to (me)," I'm not sure that is the case and I am sorry if I mislead anyone by not providing a broader description of what happened. When Bruce Bolen and Jim Deurloo asked me to select the best one for the NAMM show, I played them as I described in the article, but I also considered a lot of issues including: playability, wood figure, coloring, binding work, action, general fit and finish of hardware, and of course tone and volume. However, I didn't pick the show mandolin based on tone and volume alone (especially for a noisy place like a NAMM show where appearance is equally importance to tone/volume). I don't want to mislead folks by saying that I have the best sounding F5L of the three as I'm not so sure that is actually the case - however, all three of them sounded pretty darn good and very similar to each other (a testament to tap tuning). I just felt that mine was the best of the three taking all of the foregoing issues into consideration. Actually, the binding work around the peghead on mine is not as good as the binding work on the ones made by Aaron and Dick. But, taking everything into consideration, I felt it was the mandolin that most properly represented both Gibson and what people thought of as "the classic F5." I also want to point out that the three luthiers who built these mandolins were not the same folks who did the shading and finishing. As Bill Halsey mentioned earlier, the luthiers at Gibson were given a lot of pre-fabricated parts. For them, it was more like working from a kit (and I don't mean to diminish the great work they did). The mandolin luthiers worked with a bunch of pre-shaped parts, did the assembly and binding, and then off the instruments went to another department for finishing. By comparison, the mandolin and banjo assembly process was much more consolidated than the assembly-line process Gibson used for its other instruments at the time.
Roger

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## kpbeddin

I really enjoyed this article and have admired Mr. Siminoff since purchasing his book "Constructing a Bluegrass Mandolin" in 1989 of which I used a lot of the information in building my first F Style Mandolin.  One question if someone can help me:  There is a picture in the article of Bill Monroe and Roger Siminoff at the 1978 NAMM show.  In the picture Mr. Monroe's mandolin has the repaired peghead, but I didn't think Gibson repaired the peghead until 1980.  Any insight on this inconsistency?

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## Bill Snyder

We never did get an answer to kpbeddin's question.

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## Con Dowd

It ain't bragging if it's true! Thanks for reprinting this story. Truly engrossing for mandolin afficiandos. Con

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## kpbeddin

> I really enjoyed this article and have admired Mr. Siminoff since purchasing his book "Constructing a Bluegrass Mandolin" in 1989 of which I used a lot of the information in building my first F Style Mandolin.  One question if someone can help me:  There is a picture in the article of Bill Monroe and Roger Siminoff at the 1978 NAMM show.  In the picture Mr. Monroe's mandolin has the repaired peghead, but I didn't think Gibson repaired the peghead until 1980.  Any insight on this inconsistency?


Here is information from the Mandoline Cafe article also ng that peghead was repaired in 1980:

"The work began in the winter of 1980," said Siminoff, a Gibson consultant. "I specifically remember being back to the plant when snow was on the ground, and Monroe's mandolin was there. I have a good visual imprint of the instrument on Dick's workbench and of him working on it. Dick did a really great job rebuilding the scroll and replacing the peghead veneer."

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## Steve Carlson

> I remember it like yesterday one summer night in 1986 when I was sitting down at the Station Inn in Nashville and in walked Charlie Derrington and some other big wheels at Gibson with Steve Carlson.  Charlie told me that night about the deal with Flaitiron and I knew a new era for Gibson mandolins had begun.  A Steve Carlson signed 1982 F5L?  Impossible I say.
> Steve working on a 1982 F5L later on say in 1987 and back dating a signed label?  Not likely.  Somebody else having a name similiar to Steve Carlson and signing in 1982.  Possible as it seems the floor sweepers would walk by the F5L bench and sign the labels.


Roland White was 'sitting in' that evening I believe. Impossible is correct. The 1st 6 F5L's (made in Montana) were shown at the Namm show in Chicago, the summer of 1987. I had no other 'in between period' affiliation with Gibson prior to this time.

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## MikeEdgerton

A post from the man himself, welcome to the Cafe Steve.

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## vyolynyst

I sure would like to own an F-5L.

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## coelhoe

Tremendous contribution to our understanding of F-5 and Gibson issues.  In '74 I bought a slightly used '72 Gibson F-5. Before that I had owned an A-2, F-2, and an A-50, and the chance to get a "real" F-5 was overwhelming.  Blond, with those intricate inlays. But it never justified my excitement. Heavy construction, no projection. I then discovered that the position of the "F" holes was off by about 1/2 inch.  That is, the points of the "F" holes, where the bridge is supposed to line up to produce an accurate scale were located too close to the fingerboard. At first, I couldn't believe that a reputable company would release such an instrument, but after several measurements, that was exactly the problem.  Once I had the chance to try a Flatiron in '84, I sold the Gibson.

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## f5loar

A blonde top 70's F5 was rare.  Had to have been a custom order that way.  Yeah no greater joy then owning your first Gibson F5.

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## Bill Halsey

> I'd like to know if those 3 guys were there in 1970 when the major changes were made from the previous postwar F5.
> That would be interesting to hear of who came up with all those changes to the F5.





> Very good question.  It seems that Wilbur Marker may have had something to do with going retro on the F-5 headstocks (and possibly the revival of the lovely "Paramount" style fiddle headstock on the banjos, as well).  
> 
> My guesswork here is pretty foggy, so I'll do some digging for real facts.  Likely it'll take me a while, but I'm sure a lot of the information is still available first-hand . . . I'll get back when I have something solid.


Well, it only took me a couple of years to get around to this . . .

I just spoke with Jim Duerloo this a.m., who told me that Stan Rendell (Gibson president, 1968 - 1976) initiated all those retro appearance changes, in time for introduction at the NAMM show in summer of 1969.    That included reverting to the narrow-waist mandolin headstock, script logo, V-neck profile, adding fancy f'bd inlays, etc.; the banjo fiddle headstock, early f'bd inlays, and so on.

It's interesting that all these changes to the F-5 mandolin at that time were only skin-deep, and that when Roger Siminoff approached Rendell about enhancing the tonality and function of the instrument, Stan wouldn't hear of it.

Apparently, Stan also insisted on introducing a flat-top guitar with a 12 fret neck and no dome in the (flat) top.  I don't know which model, but it was not perceived by middle management as one of his best ideas.

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## MikeEdgerton

Ahhh the 60's.  :Cool:

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## Mandolin Cafe

This article which was published six years ago today remains one we enjoy seeing again.

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## Mandolin Cafe

Noting today's anniversary of the publication of this very interesting article by Roger Siminoff.

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DataNick, 

MikeEdgerton

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## Mandolin Cafe

Noting today's anniversary of this feature article.

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bigskygirl

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