# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Rudy Cipolla Mandolin Sheet Music Manuscripts on CList

## Pete Braccio

Hey there,

A listing for hundred's of pages of Rudy Cipolla Mandolin Sheet Music Manuscripts keeps on popping up on the local Craig's List for $750. I'm not sure if there would be any interest for this from anyone in this group, so I'm just passing it on. NFI.

The listing is http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/msd/5162861015.html

Pete

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## August Watters

Wow, great find, thanks for passing it on. I remember visiting Rudy's store in the early 80's, and all the mandolin music stacked around. It would be interesting to find out from someone closer where that music went, and how much of it is in this archive now from the CL guy.

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## John Goodin

I agree with August. It's hard from the pictures to tell how much of Rudy's legacy is part of this sale. It looks like a significant quantity of music. It would be great if someone in the bay area could check it out and report back. It would also be great to hear from other members here who might possess more of Rudy's music or know of its whereabouts.

I always imagined that David Grisman would have a big piece of Rudy's music because of those great recordings that he produced.

John G.

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## Owen Hartford

> I agree with August. It's hard from the pictures to tell how much of Rudy's legacy is part of this sale. It looks like a significant quantity of music. It would be great if someone in the bay area could check it out and report back. It would also be great to hear from other members here who might possess more of Rudy's music or know of its whereabouts.
> 
> I always imagined that David Grisman would have a big piece of Rudy's music because of those great recordings that he produced.
> 
> John G.


(I didn't see a way to write something without the previous quote, but anyway...) I'm pleased to report that at least one manuscript won't be in the collection. It's a piece that Rudy wrote for me and my wife Betsey for our wedding in 1988!

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## Jim Garber

I believe that is Randy Osbourne of Fine Fretted String Instruments. He sometimes posts ads for mandolin sheet music in the classifieds.

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Bill Clements, 

John Goodin

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## mrmando

Yep, it's Randy. I tried to press him for details but didn't get an intelligible reply, so most likely the only way of knowing what he's actually offering is to go and have a look.

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John Goodin

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## Jim Garber

Check out this thread from 2010: Rudy Cipolla. 

Some guy in NM had these. Maybe Randy bought them from him or is selling them for him. Maybe Sheri could chime in here.

For that price you would think he could at least catalog the pieces.

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John Goodin

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## August Watters

OK, I've had some emails and got a bit more info. The archive on Craig's List consists of stacks "many feet thick" of Rudi's work, and the seller says most of it is photocopies. I've been told by two sources that it probably descends from the Berkeley mandolin quartet.

The main archive is in New Mexico however, and Bob Bruen is consolidating these into  new editions, and has a few pieces on his website, adding more as they become available. Our friend Sheri Mignano Crawford (who contributed many scans of early 20th-century ballo liscio music to the MC community) is making these as time permits. Sheri has also published two significant publications on the early Bay Area mandolin scene, including a collection of published music in PDF format.

Thanks to Bob, Sheri, and all who are archiving all of this early American mandolin music. It takes a lot of time and effort, but understanding historical styles and achievements shines light on the future possibilities.

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Bill Clements, 

DavidKOS, 

John Goodin

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## Mandophile

Yes, I became aware of this situation a while back now. Bob and I discussed what to do. I'm afraid there's not much we can do besides protest and vent. It is sad though that someone would want to make money (off the body of titles on consignment to Randy) and also that he would hope to make a buck off Rudy, too. Rudy explicitly said on many an occasion that his work should be publicly shared and enjoyed. He didn't see the point of hoarding music so as to deny musicians the opportunity to access and to enjoy it. He didn't want copyrights on his music (although as I recall he was a member of ASCAP at some brief point in his career). That's why Bob and I have been working to get it out there. I transcribe the manuscripts and we make them freely accessible.

Rudy could drive anyone nuts with his individualized exercises, editions, arrangements, and specific instrumentation. He composed for an ensemble (with variations even within each instrumentation). My guess is that someone from the Berkeley Mandolin Ensemble finally off-loaded a ton of those arrangements composed and performed in the 80s when I was a member. I can only hope that whoever buys it will transcribe the various complex, and nerve-racking error-prone versions. Transcription of Rudy's music is a nightmare--and I know the music and have a black belt in Sibelius! 

Rudy's music belongs in a climate-controlled properly cared for archive, not to be sold and then thrown into, yet another, damp basement or an infested garage to disintegrate thanks to microorganisms. There needs to be a bonafide museum and library for the mandolin history in the U.S.  We need a mando hero to endow the library, preferably in the San Francisco bay area, to ensure that the manuscripts be housed properly. 

As you know I'm salvaging 100 year old sheet music that is literally disintegrating in my hands, it's become dust! The incredible service done by others who are slowly enabling me to preserve and to archive music of my Italian heritage is a whole other story. We need a musician/composer like Gordon Getty who's also a member of the 1% to become a Lorenzo di Medici and SAVE THE SHEET MUSIC! NOT HOARD IT! BUT SHARE IT~ no strings attached ~

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August Watters, 

Beanzy, 

Bill Clements, 

DavidKOS, 

Jim Garber, 

John Goodin, 

Rick Schneider

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## August Watters

> There needs to be a bonafide museum and library for the mandolin history in the U.S.  SAVE THE SHEET MUSIC!


Yes! Yes! Yes!

I think there are several places around the country where archives exist and really need to be documented. We've discussed this before in terms of what's in the Library of Congress, but they really don't have the resources to document and make available what's there, let alone become a repository for the other surviving archives.

I myself have about 40 boxes' worth, much of it from the Providence, RI area, going back to Pettine. It started with just two boxes that came to me by chance from Michigan, full of lovingly-preserved mandolin compositions, mostly from the 1890s. My hope is that these can somehow get documented, and also become part of something new.

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## Pete Braccio

These just reappeared on the local Craig's List. Now at $300. Still NFI. Just passing it on if anyone here is interested.

Pete

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/msd/5616411845.html

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## Jim Garber

FFIW I think that is Randy Osborne who used to have a web site and business called Fine Fretted String Instruments.

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## LadysSolo

I wonder what it weighs and what the shipping would be to Ohio........or if someone would like to split the collection, or.....

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## Jim Garber

> FFIW I think that is Randy Osborne who used to have a web site and business called Fine Fretted String Instruments.


Whoops! I ma echoing myself in that older thread. Oh well...

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## Bob A

http://www.usd.edu/fine-arts/national-music-museum

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## Jim Garber

> http://www.usd.edu/fine-arts/national-music-museum


Bob: your link goes to the USD page of the National Music Museum. Did you find another page relating directly to Rudy Cipolla? Are you saying that that pile of sheet music was purchased by the Museum? Please elucidate!

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## bennyb

I googled 'Cipolla' and, separately, 'Rudy Cipolla' at site:nmmusd.org.  Nothing.  Only Bob knows.

benny

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## Mandophile

Bob Bruen and I have been working on getting more titles out there. Because of other major projects, I have not been able to continue conversion of manuscripts into Sibelius. I do want to complete more...soon.
As to the manuscripts at Randy's place, I would strongly advise that unless you want to go full-tilt nuts, I feel one should avoid buying them. First, Having played with Rudy many years, and performed nearly everything he composed, either with him or the Berkeley Mandolin Ensemble and other groups, you should know that Rudy was notorious for missing measures and pages, melodic and harmonic lacunae, horrible 'Whiteout' messy errors and sloppy corrections. Second, every time he'd get a commission, he'd create a new arrangement specific to that ensemble. Thus, you''ll find dozens of slightly altered editions/arrangements with the same title but without the key to unlock which part goes with which arrangement. It is a guaranteed nightmare!
I know I've mentioned this earlier and I wholeheartedly want to see his music not only just salvaged but preserved for generations. This requires a professional librarian who is a trained musician with the patience of Job. 
Rudy could really use a patron who could endow a university library and work toward the goal of synchronizing these arrangements so that they can be performed.

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## Bob A

Merely suggesting them as a possible repository for otherwise irreplaceable sheet music. Probably more likely to be interested than some upscale music school like Eastman, was my thinking.

Sorry to get you all excited, Jim.

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## Jim Garber

I don't know that the National Music Museum has a sheet music archive. Bob, do you know if they do? Library of Congress does, for sure plus a number of universities. I seem to remember one archive for sheet music at the University of Colorado. Otherwise, I would think that the CMSA would be a very appropriate location. I know John Goodin is involved with their sheet music archive. Now if someone wanted to fund their purchase of this collection, that might be a good thing. Plus they would make it available to the public vs. a private owner who may not.

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## Martin Jonas

> Plus they would make it available to the public vs. a private owner who may not.


That may not be as easy as simply buying the manuscripts: the copyright in the arrangements would remain with Rudy's estate not with the owner of the physical manuscripts, and presumably their authorisation would be needed before the material can be made available, whether free or not.

Martin

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## Mandophile

Bob Bruen has 40-50 boxes of hundreds of arrangements in New Mexico. He is the current 'repository'. He would more than likely need to be consulted about an appropriate place for eventual placement. I would think that UC Berkeley is an ideal appropriate location for various reasons. I feel it needs to be connected to Rudy's life here in the Bay Area; otherwise, just dropping off sheet music to an unconnected organization will result in its continued neglect. I believe the mandolin world needs one unified repository for public domain sheet music. An online repository such as my free Drop Box is one solution (it costs me just a little annually to house the sheet music). That said, preserving it online is a huge step forward since it rots away with microorganisms destroying it on a daily, hourly, minute by minute basis. It will disintegrate before it can all be scanned. It took me several months to nearly a year just to scan & convert the ballo liscio & canzone sheet music in my Drop Box folders. It would take at least that long for Rudy's stuff to be prepared for scanning and half the sheet music lacks a title on 2nd and 3rd pages; furthermore, each title has several arrangements/editions for specific instrumentation/ensembles, and that has always caused total chaos. The CMSA does not have enough volunteer time, discretionary funds, space, or even a heartfelt interest in Rudy's music. You can't just drop it from the sky and think it will be preserved. It takes a village, and a considerable investment. It requires follow through as well. I'm not saying it's impossible but given these challenges and lack of any commitment to play the music as well (one can't just throw stuff in a cellar and think it will miraculously be there when you get back to it), the entire collection is bound for the dustbin of history as Carlyle would say. Sad.

Not to conclude on a sad note, I'm happy to say that one of his titles "Sunset in Capri" (as arranged by me) will be heard in an upcoming movie that's supposed to come out later this year: "We Happy Few."  The rumba written in 1969 will be heard in a Italian restaurant scene as recorded by my old mandolin ensemble. Thanks to Martin Jonas who sent the British Director Lone Scherfig to me about the rights etc. Her scouts had heard MJ's version on YouTube. He was nice enough to direct them to me. 

So there you have it! Celebrate the Fourth with whatever music you enjoy!

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## John Goodin

Since Jim mentioned me in his recent post I'll throw in my two cents on this important issue. [I wrote the following just before reading Mandophile's most recent, and equally important, posting, and Martin's important reminder about the challenges of copyright law.]

First, I was fortunate to meet Rudy Cipolla once, at the 1996 CMSA convention in San Francisco. He had long been an inspiration to me for his dedication to writing music for the mandolin from his own perspective and it was a real honor for me to be introduced to him. So I am always interested when I see some of his music for sale.

I think, however, that Mandophile's post from June 28 is right on target. Rudy's legacy is just one example of a much larger problem, not just for the preservation of mandolin music (which is our chief concern here) but for the preservation and curation of the historical and cultural record from (pick any date you want) on and into the future.  

My perspective as a (now retired) professional librarian teaches me that this kind of work is expensive in many ways. It takes not only well-intentioned but well-trained people to do this work. These people need all kinds of support, money, equipment, storage (physical and digital). Most of all it takes time, time that could be spent doing other, perhaps equally important, things.

My perspective as an active, albeit amateur, composer teaches me that it is very difficult just to keep track of my own work. Any time I spend trying to organize my own chaotic output (years of notebooks, printed music, digital scores in multiple formats, recordings in multiple formats, etc.) is time not spent working on new music.

My perspective as a long-time member of CMSA (recently rotating off of the Board after two 3 year terms) is that CMSA has long been interested in what to do about preserving the huge quantity of mandolin sheet music from the "Golden Era", most of which (but not all) is beyond the reach of U.S. copyright and lives in the public domain. Former President Lou Chouinard has been especially helpful in keeping this issue alive but it has proven difficult to make much progress. CMSA is a volunteer organization operating on a tiny budget and organizing a serious mandolin music preservation project would require dedicated and committed volunteers willing to spend significant  amounts of their own time to meet this goal.

So, back to Rudy's music. I see Mandophile's red flag as a serious warning. Someone else (maybe you?) might see this offer as a great opportunity and derive enormous pleasure from diving into the world of a great man's work. This could lead that someone into solving some of these vexing problems and provide great benefit to mandolin players everywhere. Or maybe this someone might just get a taste of what it's like to go "full tilt nuts".  :Smile:  If you've got the money, the inclination, and the time, go for it.

John G.

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## Jim Garber

Randy Osbourne just listed *these scores again* here in the classifieds and a friend of mine bought them. I guess we can hear more of what he bought when he receives it.



> This collection of pieces is a 3 foot tall stack of sheet music-15" and 21".
> 
> I have hundreds of pieces of Rudy Cipolla's Mandolin Ensemble music-many songs have 1st Mandolin, 2nd Mandolin, Mandola, Mandocello, Guitar parts., a few in manuscript form, others in Zerox format as he used them with his ensemble, these date from about 1983-1992. The majority of pieces are 1905-1935 mandolin publications copied and in the complete ensemble sets.
> 
> The are also many L. G. Auletti handwritten manuscripts from the 1930'-1940s all parts 1st, 2nd, mandola, guitar, mandocello. He had an ensemble for many years and all this sheet music comes from the archive of the late Paul Segedin-a member of the Berkeley Mandolin Ensemble in the 1980's.
> 
> Also there is one Demetrius Dounis manuscript handwritten circa 1905 (value $300-500)-he recorded in 1913.

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS

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## Classicalcomp

hopefully your friend will digitize the collection (or at least some of it). What a collection.

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## Jim Garber

I will keep you posted. He is a member of a prominent mandolin orchestra.

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## brunello97

> I will keep you posted. He is a member of a prominent mandolin orchestra.


And he lives outside a major NE American city.  And he has an extensive collection of mandolins, guitars, vioins, banjos, etc.
And he has fingers that mysteriously stretch to the envy of contortionists......

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> I will keep you posted. He is a member of a prominent mandolin orchestra.





> And he lives outside a major NE American city.  And he has an extensive collection of mandolins, guitars, vioins, banjos, etc.
> And he has fingers that mysteriously stretch to the envy of contortionists......
> 
> Mick


Mick, are you assuming something here? No, not me. I have seen ads for this collection and I was not interested in it at that price for even a small fraction. My thoughts were if Grisman or similar folks were not interested there may not be much there that we would get too excited about. Perhaps I am wrong and for my friend's sake, I hope so.

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## brunello97

Check.  Was just teasing, Jim, based on your mysterious post and membership in a prominent mandolin orchestra (I think.)

Heck, I'd love to have a look at Rudy's archives but have tended to agree with Sheri's thoughts that these need to go to a public institution that can properly sort through these and make them available to the public. 

None of my business, really, but selling these for 700 bucks?  Come on. I'm glad your friend bought these and hopefully has both an altruistic motive and that there are many a worthwhile nugget to discover.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I figured there was no real reason to mention his name since he is not a member. I am curious what this pile is like but will see if i can meet with him when he receives it. I will let you know. He is altruistic and I would think he would made copies available to the mandolin-playing public.

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brunello97

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## Mandophile

I'm busy at work transcribing the remaining titles in the Rudy Cipolla archive from the unreadable manuscripts to readable scores vetted through my software system to eliminate the annoying prevalent mistakes and errors that exist on the originals. I should have quite a few more titles available in PDF format by late spring.

Today, I'm on a fishing expedition. THE CMSA will meet in San Diego this year, toward November, and I'd like to have a group of mandolinists and guitarists signed up to play Cipolla's music. I anticipate that we would rehearse for a couple of days at the convention and present his music on a Saturday. You would receive the PDFs of the sheet music and audio files to help you prepare so that we can arrive at the convention ready to
rehearse.

Does that appeal to anyone? Please PM with the instrument you play and level of interest so I can decide how to proceed. I would need mandolins! but also octave mandolin, mandocello, banjo mandolin, guitar, flute (or clarinet on some), drums, bass viol.

or send email to zighi@sonic.net

Thank you and Happy New Year, Sheri

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