# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Small hands!

## Misty Stanley-Jones

Hi everyone. This is my first post but I have been reading and reading. One of the first searches I ever did here was about small hands and ergonomics. I am afraid my tiny left hand will keep me from doing well on mandolin! 

I am a small woman at 4'11". Years ago I played around on the violin and my teacher even recommended a 7/8 scale violin to me. I stubbornly stuck to full size and never really advanced. The musical part wasn't the hard part (I am classically trained on brass instruments and have a minor in music), but I just could never make my hands behave. Of course I was busy and didn't practice enough either. Eventually I dropped violin. 

I have always loved bluegrass music and after attending the Redlands Bluegrass Festival in 2011 I decided to buy and learn guitar. Of course I bought a dreadnought! That's the "real bluegrass guitar", right?? I learned the G shapes pretty quickly and thanks to the capo I can hold my own in bluegrass jams (if I don't take any breaks), but the guitar never felt right to me. Also,the guitar wasn't what attracted me to bluegrass music. I have always loved the fiddle and mandolin, up there in the "high lonesome" voicing. 

So last year at the same festival, I foolishly bought a mandolin. It's a pretty good one as it turns out. I got lucky. I was completely clueless when I was buying it. No research, I didn't even plan on bringing an instrument home. The builder is local to me and I also connected with a teacher the very same weekend. I've been playing and taking lessons for about the past 6 months. In some ways I'm doing ok, but there are some road blocks I haven't been able to get past. I won't go into them all at once, but the first one I want to vent about is my left pinkie!

I can't do 4-finger chop chords at all! I've tried since the very first day I got he mandolin. Because I had so much trouble on guitar, I actually asked the following question when I was looking at buying a mandolin: What is the biggest and hardest shape I will need to make, so I can figure out if my hands are too small to do it? I was shown the G chop chord. I couldn't do it of course, but it looked to be close. So I figured with time I would get there. 

Well I'm not there yet! The only way I can get close is to angle the neck way up like a ukulele, so the headstock is up around my shoulder, and really twist the hell out of my wrist. If I have the headstock in a more flat position, like Pete Martin recommends in his videos for instance, the first three fingers  are fine, but the pinky doesn't even get close to touching that 7th fret. 

My pinky is seriously short. The tip stops about 1/4 of the way between the first and second joints of my ring finger. Am I just screwed? Do I actually need a reduced-scale mandolin? Does such a thing even exist? Do I need to adopt a weird ergonomic position to play these big shapes?

Of course I know about the 3-finger chords and that is what I have been playing for now. But it also affects my melody playing. A stretch from first to 6th or 7th fret on the same string is really tough for me to get with any accuracy at all. But I think I will probably get there by anchoring using finger 2 or 3 instead of 1, when I'm reaching for those high notes. There is no way to do that on the chords though. 

And I have tried practicing the chop chord shape up the neck. I have to go pretty far before it is a relatively easy reach. And I have not been able to just get it set up and then move down the neck gradually. 

Another problem i have with small hands is making the shape of the chords rigid enough to be movable without resetting my fingers. My teacher has tried to coach me that in the G shape, fingers 1 and 2 should be locked together and stay the same when I move between, say, the G and C chords. The problem is I can't seem to cleanly fret the notes if those fingers are together so they tend to be spread out just a bit (not quite touching), so it's harder to maintain the shape when moving chords. 

Any suggestions would be appreciated as I feel like these problems are really holding me back! I love my teacher but we have not made headway with this issue. It's hard for him because he has huge hands.

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## billhay4

I have the same issue and my pinky is about the size of yours. I play mostly 3 fingered G's when I really want a good sound. If I just want percussion, I can fake the 4 fingered chord.
Pete Martin showed me to finger the 4 finger chords starting on the pinky. Once you have the pinky and ring finger in place, the other two are easier than if you do it the opposite way. This isn't easy on the fly, though.
Frankly, I've learned to play a more rhythmic background that avoids simple chops. This is your real salvation.
That's a nice looking instrument you have.
Bill

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## Tobin

> Well I'm not there yet! The only way I can get close is to angle the neck way up like a ukulele, so the headstock is up around my shoulder, and really twist the hell out of my wrist. If I have the headstock in a more flat position, like Pete Martin recommends in his videos for instance, the first three fingers are fine, but the pinky doesn't even get close to touching that 7th fret.


I'm not sure what video you're referring to, but I'd be surprised if any instructors are telling people that the 'proper' way to play the mandolin is with the headstock down parallel to the ground.  The classical 'proper' position for a mandolin has always been up at around shoulder level.  Of course, lots of bluegrassers like to hold the neck flatter instead of angling upwards, presumably because it looks cool and casual to do so, but if you look at older photos of mandolin orchestras playing modern mandolins, they always hold them up in the proper position.

The lower you hold it, the less your elbow is able to be underneath the neck.  This changes your wrist angle.  Guys with huge hands may not care, because they can get the reach no matter what angle they play.  But I'm sure there have been women much smaller than you, with hands smaller than yours, who have played the mandolin OK.  It just takes proper technique and lots of work to train the hands and fingers to stretch correctly.  I have very small hands too.  Smaller than any other adult male I know.  But chop chords, while difficult at first, now seem easy.  My wife's hands are the same size as mine, but her pinky is slightly longer, and for some reason she can't even come close to making a chop chord.  IMHO, this has very little to do with hand size and everything to do with technique.

You really have to fold your hand in a unique way to execute a good chop chord.  The index and middle fingers fretting the 2nd and 3rd frets of a G-chop need to be curled pretty tightly, while the ring and pinkie stretch out to frets 5 and 7.  But keep in mind, they should stretch along their length, not try to splay outward (apart) from each other.  The lower half (i.e. ring and pinky half) of the hand has to fold or 'droop' towards the wrist.

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Brandon Sumner

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## onassis

Personally, I think the 4 finger chop chords are not essential, or even necessarily desirable. I see a lot of touring pros doing 3 (or even 2) finger chords and using the pinky as a damper, for percussive effect. I've begun using mostly 3 finger chords or double stops for rhythm playing, trying to add less clutter to the mix. Less really can be more, especially when playing with others.

Melody playing can certainly be a challenge, but even us guys with large hands have trouble taming the pinky. I've been playing this thing for about 8 years now, and I'm just starting to feel I can reliably hit 5 fret stretches with pinky. It was something I avoided for a long time, but in the last couple of years I've made a concerted effort to get more fluid with closed position scales, especially those that require 1st to 6th fret stretches (F, Bb, Eb). So I say, just give it time and effort. If you really enjoy it, you'll find a way to make it work.

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## Bill Baldridge

For starters, six months is that long to be learning, so don't get too discouraged before you learn good technique and your hand has time to adjust to the stretch.  I don't remember where, although I think it was on You-tube, that I  recently watched a video of Sara Hull discussing her small hands and her difficulty in making a four finger G Chop.  Among other things she said that she seldom needs to use a four finger G chord.  You also might want to view the video below where you can watch her playing a octave mandolin.  If she can play that with her hands, you can play a mandolin with your hands.  Good luck.  I am sure you will be getting more help and advice here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lewRHqq7zI

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## UsuallyPickin

I have a Gibson A5L model mandolin and the neck is darn near to small for me . It is copied from the only A model mandolin Lloyd Loar signed and it was , if memory serves , built for a female player of note , haha, from the time. To make a long story longer the neck is slightly thinner 1/16 of an inch and slightly smaller in depth as well. If you run into a used A5L or, A5G same size neck less trim, models give them a sit down and play for a bit. You might find them a better fit.... R/

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## Misty Stanley-Jones

> I'm not sure what video you're referring to, but I'd be surprised if any instructors are telling people that the 'proper' way to play the mandolin is with the headstock down parallel to the ground.  The classical 'proper' position for a mandolin has always been up at around shoulder level.  Of course, lots of bluegrassers like to hold the neck flatter instead of angling upwards, presumably because it looks cool and casual to do so, but if you look at older photos of mandolin orchestras playing modern mandolins, they always hold them up in the proper position.
> 
> The lower you hold it, the less your elbow is able to be underneath the neck.  This changes your wrist angle.  Guys with huge hands may not care, because they can get the reach no matter what angle they play.  But I'm sure there have been women much smaller than you, with hands smaller than yours, who have played the mandolin OK.  It just takes proper technique and lots of work to train the hands and fingers to stretch correctly.  I have very small hands too.  Smaller than any other adult male I know.  But chop chords, while difficult at first, now seem easy.  My wife's hands are the same size as mine, but her pinky is slightly longer, and for some reason she can't even come close to making a chop chord.  IMHO, this has very little to do with hand size and everything to do with technique.
> 
> You really have to fold your hand in a unique way to execute a good chop chord.  The index and middle fingers fretting the 2nd and 3rd frets of a G-chop need to be curled pretty tightly, while the ring and pinkie stretch out to frets 5 and 7.  But keep in mind, they should stretch along their length, not try to splay outward (apart) from each other.  The lower half (i.e. ring and pinky half) of the hand has to fold or 'droop' towards the wrist.


Thanks for that info. The video I was referring to was Pete Martin's video about holding the mandolin: 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mDNJnKVO6A





> For starters, six months is that long to be learning, so don't get too discouraged before you learn good technique and your hand has time to adjust to the stretch.  I don't remember where, although I think it was on You-tube, that I  recently watched a video of Sara Hull discussing her small hands and her difficulty in making a four finger G Chop.  Among other things she said that she seldom needs to use a four finger G chord.  You also might want to view the video below where you can watch her playing a octave mandolin.  If she can play that with her hands, you can play a mandolin with your hands.  Good luck.  I am sure you will be getting more help and advice here.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lewRHqq7zI


Thanks, I'll be sure and watch! That's encouraging that she is able to play the octave. I'm sure you are right and I will be able to find a way to manage it.  :Smile: 




> I have a Gibson A5L model mandolin and the neck is darn near to small for me . It is copied from the only A model mandolin Lloyd Loar signed and it was , if memory serves , built for a female player of note , haha, from the time. To make a long story longer the neck is slightly thinner 1/16 of an inch and slightly smaller in depth as well. If you run into a used A5L or, A5G same size neck less trim, models give them a sit down and play for a bit. You might find them a better fit.... R/


Cool, I will definitely try it out. I suppose I could get Greg to modify the neck of my existing mandolin if I decided I liked a lower profile neck. I have a Gibson F5G on order from the Mandolin Store and I specifically chose the model without the wide nut. We will see how I go.

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## robert.najlis

I ordered a mandolin with a 1" nut width (that was what Bill Monroe had by the way, so no one can say anything bad about it  :Smile:   )
I love it.  I have gotten used to it completely.  It never feels too narrow, and I don't have any problems with it being too wide.
I never had a problem with the 4 fingered chop chord, that was not the reason why I got this.  I just found the width much more comfortable.  It is easier for me to chord two strings with one finger, and some more complicated noting up the neck has become easier as well.

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## mandogerry

Hi Misty,

My hands also are small, and I've had to make some adjustments with mandolin playing (I played violin a million years ago). Lots of early 20th century mandolins had shorter scales (13", same as a violin) and some had narrow necks like the 1" that Robert refers to above, also more violinlike. Maybe this was because a lot of women played in mandolin orchestras then. Finding these dimensions in modern mandolins unfortunately requires a custom build. But other things can help those of us with small hands.

Neck bulkiness and shape differ among builders. For example, I had to give up my beloved 99-year-old Gibson A mandolin because the chubby neck was (for me) like holding a baseball bat and, after four years of trying to adapt to it, I had chronic thumb pain. It had to go, regardless of how beautiful its tone was.

I've found after much experimenting over a few years that the solution is NOT to adopt odd positions, like holding my mandolin facing the ground. I've also had to accept that I can't stretch as far as some of the boys with what I call (with no disrespect intended, really -- some of them use the same term) their "ham hands". I play mostly melody; when I do chords, two-finger or three-finger chords, or open string drones, work just fine. If I have to, I slide up the neck into different positions to get the fingering I need; how fortunate that frets get closer together as you go up the neck.  :Smile:   A radiused neck helps some and many builders use them as a standard feature now. Having a mandolin set up with low action is very important to me, too.

A few months ago I found an A5 mandolin for sale that had been custom made with a 13" scale and a slim radiused neck. On it I can play in the key of E, my former nemesis, without any need to contort my hand. I'm now having an A oval hole mandolin made that will have the tone I miss on my old chubby Gibson, but also a neck profile that is comfortable.

Maybe the biggest thing that has helped me since I started playing is not what instrument I have, but accepting that I might not be the fastest, loudest, or flashiest player, but I'm playing because I enjoy it -- and I enjoy it totally. There's always someone out there who will do it better than I do if I start comparing. Good luck.

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## RobinAronson

Glad this topic came up, as I am also struggling with the small hand problem.  I hold my hand up to that of my younger sister and her fingers are a good 1/4" longer than mine, however, she is not trying to play mandolin (SO not fair!).  It's good to know that we're not obligated to play 4-note chop chords.  I'm not to the point yet where I'm ready to show up at a jam, but I had assumed that I didn't dare show up only playing 2- or 3-note chords. In the slow jams that I've tried, I tend to want to just fill in some harmony, and am hoping that will be acceptable.  For now, if I really work at it, I can put my fingers down one at a time on the 4-finger G chop, but can't get the strings stopped well enough to make a clean sound.

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## Bertram Henze

I never tire in my quest to bust the small hands myth with this video:




If they can do it, you can. If closed chords are too much of a stretch, play open chords. There are ways around anything - find your own.

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## Jim Garber

> Another problem i have with small hands is making the shape of the chords rigid enough to be movable without resetting my fingers. My teacher has tried to coach me that in the G shape, fingers 1 and 2 should be locked together and stay the same when I move between, say, the G and C chords. The problem is I can't seem to cleanly fret the notes if those fingers are together so they tend to be spread out just a bit (not quite touching), so it's harder to maintain the shape when moving chords.


That is not just a problem for people with small hands. It is a coordination problem that can be remedied with practice. Have your teacher give you some simple exercises or just practice switching between the chords. Take it slow at first, don't overdo it and stretch your fingers or shake them out in between rest time. Little by little you will get there. Patience will also help a lot.

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Misty Stanley-Jones

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## Perry

If chopping is really what you need to do you can leave out the E string and to a lesser extent the A string and make some nice shapes on the two bottom strings...you will of course have to dampen the E and A strings so they don't sound but it is not necessary to fret them cleanly. Also as someone mentioned above...many players (Bush, Marshall, Thile) often  play two note double stops on the bottom two strings when playing rhythm.

The late great Jethro Burns tried to steer us all away from chopping.  :Mandosmiley:

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Misty Stanley-Jones

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## Earl Gamage

There's this Ricky Skaggs video you can watch him chop pretty good.

Chop chords will eventually work for you if you keep trying.

Also, watch Sam Bush and Adam Steffey for some other ideas on how to chop (or play rythym).

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Beanzy, 

Bill Baldridge, 

Misty Stanley-Jones

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## JeffD

> It's good to know that we're not obligated to play 4-note chop chords.


The importance of four finger chop chords depends on the genre. They are often not the prettiest sounding chord.

4 finger chop chords are important for being able to chop, which is important for bluegrass. If you are not playing bluegrass they are not so important, as you don't need to chop (and probably shouldn't). 

That being said, they are very useful, and they break up into lots of cool three finger chords and two finger double stops, that are moveable not just up the neck across the neck, giving endless opportunity for easy harmonies to fill out your sound.

So, yea you should learn them, but unless you are going into bluegrass, they are not the most important thing to learn.

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## belbein

I bought Mel Bay's Jethro Burn's Mandolin Book, a year or more ago.  All of the chords in the chord encyclopedia in the back are three finger chords.

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## belbein

> There's this Ricky Skaggs video you can watch him chop pretty good.
> 
> Chop chords will eventually work for you if you keep trying.
> 
> Also, watch Sam Bush and Adam Steffey for some other ideas on how to chop (or play rythym).


I wish someone had told me before I started mandolin that all the great players started when they were babies.  I would have taken up golf or something.

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## AlanN

> The late great Jethro Burns tried to steer us all away from chopping.


Yes he did...LOL!

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## JeffD

> I wish someone had told me before I started mandolin that all the great players started when they were babies.  I would have taken up golf or something.


The great golfers too I'm afraid. Tiger was introduced to golf at age two. At age three, he shot a 48 over nine holes. (I read that somewhere.)

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## Steve Zawacki

Misty, have patience and all will work out well.  You've already found with the guitar that there are ways to adjust to the situation despite being "finger-length challenged" and mandolin is no different. 

Short fingers, especially the pinky, is just a matter of adapting to what you've got.  I know pianists who scream at some piano chord arrangements which seem to have been developed solely for folk with hands which can easily palm a basketball.  I've got the same "pinky reality" and a 4-finger G just isn't happening.  When it rarely does, everything else stops for several beats before and after.  3-finger chords may not get me a spot with the Boston Pops or Mountain Heart, but there's still a lot of fun to be had.  As far as chops go, others have noted that chops can be faked enough to get by in many circumstances.  Eventually, a "proper" chop chord may happen, but if it doesn't, that's not going to stop the fun.

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Misty Stanley-Jones

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## Jim Garber

I think you should be fine with the mandolin you have now but just in case... 

There are actually many mandolins that have shorter scales. I know the Big Muddy ones come with 13"/33cm scales and mandy of the vintage bowlbacks were built with that same short scale. Later vintage Lyon & Healy mandolins have that same scale length as well. Many classical players prefer those due to some difficult pieces that do require some long reaches.

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## mandogerry

Has anyone ever done a thread on too-big hands?? When my mandolinist friend John, whose hands are probably twice my size, tried out my Newell A5 (with 13" scale and skinny neck), he looked puzzled and pretty much said he could not play it. Of course, he is a whiz on his Gibson A with fat neck. Frankly I don't know how you fellows with the big fingers can stay within just one fret, or on just one pair of strings. I remain convinced that one size does not fit all.

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## Beanzy

I've got big fat fingers and still do ok on my 1" nut short scale bowlback. The place where it tells is up around fret 9 onwards where sequential notes up the neck could be awkward. I needed to develop a feel for using one finger to guide the other out of the way as I fret it, so the lower finger is displaced by the other just as it frets the higher fret.

I don't do quite so well with chords, but am getting a feel for how to hide the 'excess' fingertip behind a fretted note. The "keeping the fingers down until they're needed" doesn't really happen either, as often the finger would interfere if left in the way of the one that's actually needed. However I'm being careful to make sure that's only where the big index and ring-finger-tips do actually cause problems.

I need to be careful to fret we'll behind the fret too so as not to un intentionally damp the strings. but then again I can pretty effectively damp the adjacent strings when I need to even if the pinky is occupied and I don't want to damp all with the heel of my hand.

The advantages outweigh the dis-advantages for me, with my being able to barre two courses with one finger and even do a run up of 5ths or down of 4ths with just a roll of the finger tip. I also never miss one of the pairs when fretting.

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## Tobin

> Has anyone ever done a thread on too-big hands?? When my mandolinist friend John, whose hands are probably twice my size, tried out my Newell A5 (with 13" scale and skinny neck), he looked puzzled and pretty much said he could not play it. Of course, he is a whiz on his Gibson A with fat neck. Frankly I don't know how you fellows with the big fingers can stay within just one fret, or on just one pair of strings. I remain convinced that one size does not fit all.


There are lots of threads here about people who need supersized mandolin necks to accommodate their "sausage fingers".  This is way more common than people having hands too small.  Although it usually relates to finger girth, not length.  I would think that having long skinny fingers should never be a problem for mandolin players.  

But yeah, "one size fits all" has never been true about ANYTHING in life, I don't care what the label or advertising says.  That mentality has been part of the decline of quality in everything produced today, as items are geared more towards mass markets instead of custom markets.  From socks to hats to anything in life that you need to be a good fit, there are very few who are actually the "ideal" size for them.  I've pretty much gotten to the point in life where I won't buy anything that's labeled as "one size fits all", because I know it's going to be a shoddy, sloppy fit and probably not work for me.  I'd rather spend my money on something better suited to my size.

That's actually one of the main things that drew me to the mandolin!  The 'standard' neck width and scale length suit me perfectly.  Wider and narrower nuts can accommodate different hand/finger sizes, but only to a point.

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## mandogerry

> There are lots of threads here about people who need supersized mandolin necks to accommodate their "sausage fingers".  This is way more common than people having hands too small.


Hmmmm. And I'm just guessing that there are lots more male hands than female hands here, too? In the sausage world, my fingers are more like Vienna Sausages than kielbasa-sized.  :Smile:

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## Misty Stanley-Jones

> There's this Ricky Skaggs video you can watch him chop pretty good.
> 
> Chop chords will eventually work for you if you keep trying.
> 
> Also, watch Sam Bush and Adam Steffey for some other ideas on how to chop (or play rythym).


I have seen Baby Ricky before. Too cute and yep if he could do it then I should be able to!

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## Misty Stanley-Jones

> The importance of four finger chop chords depends on the genre. They are often not the prettiest sounding chord.
> 
> 4 finger chop chords are important for being able to chop, which is important for bluegrass. If you are not playing bluegrass they are not so important, as you don't need to chop (and probably shouldn't). 
> 
> That being said, they are very useful, and they break up into lots of cool three finger chords and two finger double stops, that are moveable not just up the neck across the neck, giving endless opportunity for easy harmonies to fill out your sound.
> 
> So, yea you should learn them, but unless you are going into bluegrass, they are not the most important thing to learn.


Well bluegrass is mostly what I'm interested in so I will keep plugging away!

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## MWBailey

'Nother new person here, been lurking for a bit.

I have arthritis in my left thumbjoint, as well as other hand issues, so two-finger chords and 'noodled' melodies are about all I can comfortably play; I thus feel for you in a way. The uke-style hold does tend to be less stressful for me as well, so I tend to use it both for the mando and for the banjo; I've been told by a couple or three Old-time Music folks that such was the way that the mandolin was originally most commonly held, but I have no other provenance for that position. I'd say whatever position and method is most comfortable for you would be best for you.

(I've been playing mandolin for about two years, since I bought an inexpensive Savannah A-style to play in addition to the clawhammer banjo, fife, and irish flute that I play with some of the local dulcimer and bluegrass clubs/jam sessions around town. I've since (yesterday) replaced the Savannah with a new Washburn M1SDLB (it's black, a floor display that I've been visiting frequently for about a month or so). I love it, by the way).

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## Mark Wilson

On my mandolin (and with my playing) chop rhythm sounds best with the E string avoided or muted. Even on the four finger chords I can play I don't aim to hit the E string. 

Also I've noticed that in 8 months of playing mandolin, the distance I can achieve (in the fretting position) between my forefinger and pinkie has exceeded the same stretch on my left hand by a good bit.  So imo, reach on the fretboard can/will improve with practice.

Or just practice on a mandola and perform on a mandolin.  Like jogging with ankle weights  :Smile:

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Misty Stanley-Jones

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## harper

Small, female, aging hands speaking here.  I have found this thread very useful.  My solutions have been to use a mandolin with a slender neck and 13 inch scale and to study the cello (7/8 size).  The latter is helpful but not necessary.  The cello has helped me strengthen the 4th finger of my left hand and helped me understand the value of shifting out of 1st position.  At my current stage, 4 finger chords are out of the question.  In another few years, perhaps I will have the strength and flexibilty in my left hand of those 5 year old guitarists (or maybe not).

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## tree

I don't have small hands, but I think what others have said about not worrying about 4 finger chords (all the time) is good advice.  I played guitar for probably 30 years before I picked up the mandolin seriously, and for nearly the entire 30 years I had the same mindset about using all 6 strings for chords.  It was only when I began to seriously study and cop some of George Harrison's fills and licks that I realized that if the idea for a fill or chord or melodic motif fits the song, it doesn't matter if it only uses 2 or 3 strings.  There is a LOT that can be communicated with just 2 or 3 strings, and I think that works pretty much for most fretted instruments.  

Especially with mandolin, there are tons of 2- and 3- string chords all over the neck.  Keep working on the 4-finger chords in the meantime, because they do come easier eventually, just realize that they're only one tool in the toolbox.

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Misty Stanley-Jones, 

Steve Zawacki

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## Pasha Alden

Good luck, I am not sure but it sounds as if your hands are smaller than mine and I have small hands.  Been playing for over a year and now playing live.  It can be done, however, I found that it is a combination between accuracy and strength. There are also little tricks, of resting some fingers when playing.   

For melody, my hands are small, however, I found the trick is increasing fretting speed, and as I am also visually impaired, I have to find orientation points to make some of the stretches.   My small hands need strengthening and I find Pete Martin's exercises for the pinkie is great.

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Misty Stanley-Jones

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## Pasha Alden

Agreed with Tre and Chords all the time: three finger chords while you work on increasing hand strength and stamina.

Best and happy playing

Pasha Alden

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## JeffD

Sierra Hull has tiny hands and I have seen her tear it up on a mandola!

Don't be discouraged.

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Misty Stanley-Jones

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## Tobin

> Sierra Hull has tiny hands and I have seen her tear it up on a mandola!
> 
> Don't be discouraged.


She tears it up on an Octave Mandolin too.  Amazing!

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## JeffD

> She tears it up on an Octave Mandolin too.  Amazing!


Right you are!

It doesn't answer any questions directly, but I love this.

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## bratsche

> Hmmmm. And I'm just guessing that there are lots more male hands than female hands here, too? In the sausage world, my fingers are more like Vienna Sausages than kielbasa-sized.


And to risk pointing out the obvious, small male hands are usually like, or even larger than, large female hands.  A man here has called Sierra Hull's hands "tiny".  Well, this woman says they are probably more like "average", judging from what I can see in that video.  Her hands look to be about the size of mine, and I've always considered mine neither overly large nor small, for a woman.  (And I still prefer playing mandola over mandolin, for reasons of both sound and physical comfort while playing.)

Sure, there are times I've wished for a bit more finger length, but of course, I don't have any choice in the matter.  We "make do" the best we can with whatever we have, whether we've got Vienna sausages, kielbasa, or beef jerky.  :Wink: 

bratsche

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mandogerry, 

Misty Stanley-Jones

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## John Ritchhart

Look at Mike Marshall's hands. Huge. He manages OK. But back to the OP's dimensions. Misty can we see a picture of your hand? When you say 1/4 of the way between the first and second joint are you counting the knuckle joint as one? If so that's a seriously short pinkie. Let's see it.

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## stevedenver

misty

remember Django made it with 2 fingers
remember that all you need to do is compliment the music, 

as for chops, think three fingers-as I have had trigger finger recently in my ring finger, and previously my pinky, 
I made do, suing a g chop up at the tenth on the bottom 3 strings-sounds great-

remember that jazz players (guitarists) use three note chops and sound great in the mix

I frankly, do not think you have an option regarding scale length, in reality.

you might find the mando is your oyster playing above the seventh fret-it makes a drastic difference in fret space.  A good set up and a good mando will be 'instrumental' in doing this well.

think outside the box, and do not focus on being rigidly conventional if you are physically limited in your reach (ive been compensating this way now off and on for about a year when one finger needs rest-)

if you must, play in the open positions if you cannot manage the closed
or, find a chart of chord inversions for the mando-ie all the shapes for major and minor chords, and utilize these shapes.  Some are more closely spaced than others, and should help your reach.

over time, other options in playing what you wish will come to you 

and,* do not overstress your hand trying too hard, or too long* 
trigger finger comes from too much gripping, of anything
including mando necks making each and every note ring and sing

this I know from experience

what is the span of your hand from pinky end to thumb-stretched wide open?

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mandogerry

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## Misty Stanley-Jones

> what is the span of your hand from pinky end to thumb-stretched wide open?


OK, I didn't have a ruler here at work so I printed one out. Before you go and print out a ruler from online, make sure that it is scaled to the paper size you will be printing it on (in my case, A4) so you really are seeing inches and centimeters.

I'll assume most of you are in the US and convert it to inches. It looks like from the heel of my palm to the tip of my longest finger is just over 6.5" (16.5 cm). When my hand is spread as wide as it goes, from the tip of my pinky to the tip of my thumb is just over 7.5" (19.1 cm).

So, is that small? How does it compare to all of your hands? I'm curious now.  :Laughing:

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## Bertram Henze

The tip-to-tip thumb-pinky distance is 20.5 cm on my hand, heel-to-middle-finger is 18.5 cm.
The difference is there, but nothing dramatic that would justify a handicapped parking permit in Kalamazoo.

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Misty Stanley-Jones

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## stevedenver

> OK, I didn't have a ruler here at work so I printed one out. Before you go and print out a ruler from online, make sure that it is scaled to the paper size you will be printing it on (in my case, A4) so you really are seeing inches and centimeters.
> 
> I'll assume most of you are in the US and convert it to inches. It looks like from the heel of my palm to the tip of my longest finger is just over 6.5" (16.5 cm). When my hand is spread as wide as it goes, from the tip of my pinky to the tip of my thumb is just over 7.5" (19.1 cm).
> 
> So, is that small? How does it compare to all of your hands? I'm curious now.


im not versed in human averages, but , id say it is a smaller span-
and it does seem you have a short pinky-not that ive ever studied or done anything other than compare to my own, or what vague concepts or memories I might have in general
im a medium male, not long and tall, not short and squat, wide open hand span is 9.5 inches pinky tip to thumb.

I understand why you would have less reach.
I don't know, if span is necessarily tied to the low g 4 finger form, as it doesn't require a wide reach, but it does require some, as well as arching of the fingers.


chin up, march on!

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## Tobin

> I'll assume most of you are in the US and convert it to inches. It looks like from the heel of my palm to the tip of my longest finger is just over 6.5" (16.5 cm). When my hand is spread as wide as it goes, from the tip of my pinky to the tip of my thumb is just over 7.5" (19.1 cm).
> 
> So, is that small? How does it compare to all of your hands? I'm curious now.


This would be a great topic for a new thread (or poll) to see what kind of hand measurements people have.  It would be very interesting to see the averages.

I measured mine the same as yours, and my hand measures just under 7" from heel to fingertip.  From pinky to thumb, outstretched, is just under 8".  So my hands are slightly larger than yours, but not by much.

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## bratsche

> I'll assume most of you are in the US and convert it to inches. It looks like from the heel of my palm to the tip of my longest finger is just over 6.5" (16.5 cm). When my hand is spread as wide as it goes, from the tip of my pinky to the tip of my thumb is just over 7.5" (19.1 cm).
> 
> So, is that small? How does it compare to all of your hands? I'm curious now.


Those are just about the same measurements as I have.  Although judging from your pictures, my pinky might be about 1/4" longer than yours.

bratsche

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## Ted Eschliman

I hope I'm not stating something obvious, but even normal (whatever that is...) sized hands will struggle with an instrument that has poor adjustment or too heavy of strings. It could be the reach is there (or very close), but the strings aren't cooperating because the action is too high. You might consider a lighter gauge of strings or a good adjustment from a reputable repair tech. Might help.

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## belbein

How strange ... my mandolin teacher and I were talking about this today.  She is a petite woman with small hands, she says.  She had to learn to stretch.  The stretch she showed me was this:  to place your first finger on the first fret, second finger on the third fret, third finger on the 5th fret, and fourth finger on the 7th fret, all of the e string.  Then walk you fingers up the fretboard (up in the sense of--staying on those frets--from the e to the a to the d to the g strings).  You don't have to play the notes, you just have to pick your fingers up and move them.  She says that doing that exercise really helped her learn to stretch.  I have huge hands, and her wingspan is way greater than mine.  

She also told me that the fingers are assigned this way:  1st finger covers first and second fret, second finger covers third and fourth, third finger covers fifth fret, and fourth finger covers sixth and seventh.  This is a little different than what I've read elsewhere.  But trying it, I found that it improved my reach immediately.  I'm not sure why, but the effect was immediate.

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AubreyK, 

Misty Stanley-Jones

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## Misty Stanley-Jones

> I hope I'm not stating something obvious, but even normal (whatever that is...) sized hands will struggle with an instrument that has poor adjustment or too heavy of strings. It could be the reach is there (or very close), but the strings aren't cooperating because the action is too high. You might consider a lighter gauge of strings or a good adjustment from a reputable repair tech. Might help.


Ted, funny you should say that. I just had my mando in to the luthier for a 6-month physical. He lowered the action, adjusted the angle and depth of some of the string slots in the nut, adjusted the neck and did some other magic. The action is much better and it has helped with tension in my left hand. It has only been a week but my teacher also noticed a huge improvement. 




> How strange ... my mandolin teacher and I were talking about this today.  She is a petite woman with small hands, she says.  She had to learn to stretch.  The stretch she showed me was this:  to place your first finger on the first fret, second finger on the third fret, third finger on the 5th fret, and fourth finger on the 7th fret, all of the e string.  Then walk you fingers up the fretboard (up in the sense of--staying on those frets--from the e to the a to the d to the g strings).  You don't have to play the notes, you just have to pick your fingers up and move them.  She says that doing that exercise really helped her learn to stretch.  I have huge hands, and her wingspan is way greater than mine.  
> 
> She also told me that the fingers are assigned this way:  1st finger covers first and second fret, second finger covers third and fourth, third finger covers fifth fret, and fourth finger covers sixth and seventh.  This is a little different than what I've read elsewhere.  But trying it, I found that it improved my reach immediately.  I'm not sure why, but the effect was immediate.


Cool I will try this. I had been assigning two frets per finger. I think your teacher's method gets the pinky in the game more often. Maybe that strengthens it and helps it behave.

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## lorrainehornig

I don't have really small hands, but I do have smaller hands than most and a relatively short thumb. I have struggled with my left hand position because I kept thinking I have to have my thumb sticking up above the fret board as most players do. The result was that I started playing too parallel to the fret board. I have recently worked hard on adjusting my hand position to angle it with the knuckle of my index finger positioned just above the nut. I have found I can reach up the frets much easier and am even starting to play 4-finger chords (although my pinky is still somewhat rebellious). My thumb still does not reach above the fretboard, but I've stopped worrying about it. I have found a position that works for me even on the G and D strings that can be difficult with smaller hands. It took a lot of experimenting to find an angled positions that worked for me while keeping my wrist straight. It's not just hand size that impacts grip; but the elbow to wrist length as well. When I first started experimenting I discovered that if I didn't move my elbow out from my side a bit more, my wrist bent too far. I suspect that when it comes to left hand position, there are many, many factors that come into play in the overall mechanics. It would be great if your hand position could be analyzed by a professional...kind of like golf swings are analyzed. Good luck to you.

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## lorrainehornig

> It looks like from the heel of my palm to the tip of my longest finger is just over 6.5" (16.5 cm). When my hand is spread as wide as it goes, from the tip of my pinky to the tip of my thumb is just over 7.5" (19.1 cm).
> 
> So, is that small? How does it compare to all of your hands?


My hand is exactly the length of your hand but my hand spread is just over 8"...I guess the exercises I do are working and that's why I can now to 4-finger chords.

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Misty Stanley-Jones

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## Misty Stanley-Jones

> My hand is exactly the length of your hand but my hand spread is just over 8"...I guess the exercises I do are working and that's why I can now to 4-finger chords.


What exercises?? I have been trying the 1/3/5/7 fret ones.

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## John MacPhee

FFcP exercises Misty. www.jazzmando.com

Cheers
John
PS
Greg makes a mean mando, just brilliant.

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Misty Stanley-Jones

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## lorrainehornig

> What exercises?? I have been trying the 1/3/5/7 fret ones.


 Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I do fret board exercises by planting my index finger on the second fret and moving up the frets to the 7th or 8th fret with my other fingers. The index finger doesn't move. I move up all the strings. I also place my fingertips together (not palm to palm); then slowly move to a nearly palm to palm position (more like knuckles to knuckles) while fanning my fingers out. I can get quite a stretch. I hope I explained it well. I've been doing this for about 5 months. Back then there was no way I could reach very far with my pinky, but it's getting easier all the time. Now I have to train the little digit not to curl under when I'm playing chord progressions. My pinky is flexible, but lazy.

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AubreyK, 

Misty Stanley-Jones

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## yankees1

There are other four finger G chops than the traditional placement.

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Misty Stanley-Jones

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## Gerard Dick

6 months and you can't do it yet? You have high expectations. It took me 2 years to get it together. I have an involuntary reduced hand span due to  an industrial mishap. Try getting it together farther up the neck like around Bb position. The necessary reach is shorter there. When that works out OK start working it back towards the G.  If all else fails, then, as stated above, there are other 4 finger chops available.

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Misty Stanley-Jones

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## Misty Stanley-Jones

Thanks all! I'm being patient and having fun. Started playing with ffcp and also doing other stretching exercises. I've thought about using pinky for the 6th fret for a while and then stretching to 7th. But if you're supposed to use the third finger for that then I don't want to get into bad habits. 

Has anyone redone any tab for familiar fiddle tunes using closed positions? It's hard to remember not to use the open strings. 

I also have Mandolin for Dummies and the Bluegrass Mandolin book by Tottle to work through. I have plenty to do besides stretching my left hand. I signed up to the Mike Marshall lessons too. Gotta get myself ready for my new mandolin when it's ready!

The good news is that 3-finger chords are getting easier in G, D, A, E, C keys. I can handle chopping some of the simple 12-bar blues like Johnny Cash.

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## Beanzy

> Has anyone redone any tab for familiar fiddle tunes using closed positions? It's hard to remember not to use the open strings.


Here's a quick tip to get you right in the book of cool straight away. Wherever you see a 0 on one line write a 7 directly below it on the next course. Bingo! you're instantly the queen of double stops and using the pinky.  :Grin:  (If any sound weird just tippex out the 0.)

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Misty Stanley-Jones

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## Johnno

Hey Misty, new mandolin? What are you getting?
Cheers
Johnno

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## Misty Stanley-Jones

> Hey Misty, new mandolin? What are you getting?
> Cheers
> Johnno


A new Gibson Goldrush. Way more mandolin than I deserve!

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## Johnno

Hey Misty 
Just watched a vid on the gold rush now I got envy. I would like you to post a vid when you feel comfortable with it. well done and play hard Queenslander.
Cheers
Johnno

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## Misty Stanley-Jones

Thanks Johnno! What videos were you watching? I'd love to see them. Where do you play around Brissie? Nice to see local folks.

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## John MacPhee

Hey Misty
I just google searched and it was there. The only place I play is a small room with the door closed. I am not a competent player don't have a memory for tunes and I can't read fast enough to make anything sound reasonable so I just keep trying and one day it will all come together, I hope!
Cheers
Johnno

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## Misty Stanley-Jones

There is a jam at Everton Hills that is very accepting of newbies! My husband plays double bass and has sat in a few times. There is also the Friday night jams at Redlands but that's more country than bluegrass. Do you attend the festival out there each year? I'm sure we must have met by now. 

Is the video the Mandolin Store one? I've watched it heaps of times! Dennis just let me know they will be starting to make my mandolin soon and confirmed I don't want a radius or big frets. So excited!

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