# Octaves, Zouks, Citterns, Tenors and Electrics > Tenor Guitars >  New Herb Taylor tenor guitar

## zoukboy

Haven't had a chance to shoot a full set of photos but here are two that should peak some interest here...

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ARK, 

Baron Collins-Hill, 

bruce.b, 

FatBear, 

fox, 

Marty Jacobson, 

MdJ, 

Mike Barber, 

Niall Anderson

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## mrmando

Well, be sure to tell us your tuning and explain how the extension works.

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## bruce.b

Wow! I can't wait to hear more about this one.

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FatBear

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## Londy

Very odd indeed. What is the advantage of the headstock design?

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## fox

I am interested.......

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## Niall Anderson

Happy n+1, Roger! Look forward to seeing more photos and perhaps a video? 

How are you finding the pinpoint capos so far? How's the intonation on the bass course?

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## Baron Collins-Hill

I have had dreams of something like this! Can't wait to hear/see more!

Thank
Baron

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## FatBear

That's quite a peg head.  Longer bass strings - one looks like aircraft cable - smaller string in the middle of the basses, guides and little pulleys at the top, storage holes for the little capo knobs.  The tuner for that big string almost looks like an anchor windlass.  How in the world is it tuned?  And what does the rest of it look like?

That Herb Taylor sure is an imaginative and innovative guy.

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## Marty Jacobson

Excellent. Herb is a clever guy and this is very well executed, a nice way to do this which doesn't require the stair-step headstock arrangement sometimes seen on Nordic-style instruments.

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## MdJ

> Haven't had a chance to shoot a full set of photos but here are two that should peak some interest here...


That Herb is a MASTERMIND! 
Just guessing... But does this deal the problem of excessivly heavy string gauges in a 5 ths tuned 5 course instrument (by lenghtening the scale of the bass course) ? But then the  bass string pair appears to be partially re-entrant... So that can't be right ... Can it?

Thanks for posting

MdJ

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## zoukboy

This is essentially a five string tenor guitar with extended bass range and the lowest string doubled at the octave. I borrowed the idea of extended basses from the Nordic luthiers who've pioneered the concept on the låtmandola. Herb Taylor masterfully turned my design ideas into a real functioning instrument.

Here's how it works:
1. start with a 4 string tenor tuned G2D3A3E4 on a 22.75" scale length.
2. extend the G2 by three frets so that it is now an E2 (on a 27" scale).
3. add a C2 string and extend that by three frets down to A1 (yes, that is the same as the A string on a bass guitar).
4. use an oversize classical guitar bass string (.062" Hannabach) for the A1.
5. double that A1 at the octave A2 with a phosphor bronze .034"***
6. Use pinpoint capos to stop bass strings as needed to change tunings.

I will post photos soon.

***(the idea of using a heavy classical guitar bass string couple with a phosphor bronze octave string comes from Roger Tallroth, guitarist with the Swedish group Väsen, who does that on his 12 string guitars. Swedish låtmandola makers use it for extending the range of their instruments below what is normal for fifths-tuned fretted instruments.)

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bruce.b

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## zoukboy



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bruce.b, 

MdJ, 

Rick Purcell

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## MdJ

What an interesting innovative and instrument ! But how in the wide wide world of sports is that tailpiece engineered?

All the best

MdJ

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## zoukboy

The neck runs through the body to the tail and the tailpiece is secured to the neckstick on a brass post through a hole in the top. The only tension on the lightly braced top is the small amount that is diverted through the floating bridge.

The neck-through the body is something that I had been after Herb to do for quite a while and he first tried it on a bouzouki prototype last year: http://www.herbtaylor.com/instruments/bouzouki/i186/

The rationale behind the through-neck is to let the neck take almost all the tension of the strings so that the top can be braced very, very lightly -- it essentially makes the top a resonating surface rather than a structural component. 

I have been interested in how loud and full sounding many non-Western instruments are, those with flat tops, low bridges, and almost no break angle of the strings over the bridge, and this  led me to ask Herb for several design features over the past 5 years or so. One was the zero down pressure bridge on my main bouzouki:

http://www.herbtaylor.com/instruments/bouzouki/i140/

The other was the neck-through bouzouki prototype, and the latest is this tenor guitar.

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## MdJ

Very very cool Roger .... A few years back I played several of Herbs' tenor guitars in Astoria at TGG4 and the one i liked best had a 'zero'd-out' bridge and the ultra thin top....tho it sported a standard tailpiece. ....  After Herb explained it to me i was even more impressed - with the instrument and especially with how he had succeeded in redefining the problem of transferring sound... Its obvious he has pushed the idea much further here. Congrats again on a really bitchen instrument.

All the best

MdJ

PS - Just checked Herbs website- the instrument i played in Astoria is #183 - demonstrated on the Herb Taylor website by .......Mr. Roger Landes.... 

http://www.herbtaylor.com/instruments/tenorguitar/i183/

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zoukboy

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## zoukboy

> Very very cool Roger .... A few years back I played several of Herbs' tenor guitars in Astoria at TGG4 and the one i liked best had a 'zero'd-out' bridge and the ultra thin top....tho it sported a standard tailpiece. ....  After Herb explained it to me i was even more impressed - with the instrument and especially with how he had succeeded in redefining the problem of transferring sound... Its obvious he has pushed the idea much further here. Congrats again on a really bitchen instrument.
> 
> All the best
> 
> MdJ
> 
> PS - Just checked Herbs website- the instrument i played in Astoria is #183 - demonstrated on the Herb Taylor website by .......Mr. Roger Landes.... 
> 
> http://www.herbtaylor.com/instruments/tenorguitar/i183/


Yes. That is a nice one, and it has the tenor version of the "zero down pressure" bridge.

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## zoukboy

After two days this puppy is really starting to open up. I put slightly heavier strings on the first three strings tonight and I like it better. Gauges are now:

len 22.75"
E4  .013" PL == 21.82#
A3  .021" NW == 21.52#
D3  .032" PB == 24.3#
G2  .045" PB == 21.5#
C3  .034" PB == 21.92#
C2  .00071196468 == 16.33# (this is the Hannabach .062" classical guitar bass string)
total == 127.4# 

Still very low tension overall, not much more than a classical guitar. (For comparison a six string acoustic with 13-56 strings will be almost 190#.)

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fox

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## mrmando

So this is liuto tuning plus an octave C, with the option of dropping the bass strings by a step and a half, yes?

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## fox

Really interesting design, I love anything that deviates  away from the norm.

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FatBear, 

zoukboy

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## bruce.b

I can't wait to hear this.

Here is a good video of the Nordic version mentioned in a post above.

https://silkwoodmusic.wordpress.com/...s-not-a-banjo/

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## bruce.b

Hmmm, I've often thought about how useful a a low C string would be on a tenor guitar tuned GDAE. I wouldn't want the other 4 strings longer than 22", and didn't know of a good way to get that low C string longer. This idea looks excellent. Now add in some pinpoint capos and it has many interesting possibilities for alternate tunings too. 

Maybe I'l ask Herb about this. I love my Herb archtops..... an archtop version? I'm just musing on the idea at this point since I'm so happy with my standard GDAE tenors.

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## zoukboy

> So this is liuto tuning plus an octave C, with the option of dropping the bass strings by a step and a half, yes?


Well, I suppose, but don't think of it that way. I think of it as Irish tenor banjo/OM tuning with an extra octave-doubled bass course:

C2   G2 D3 A3 E4
B1   F2#
B1b F2
A1   E2

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## zoukboy

> Hmmm, I've often thought about how useful a a low C string would be on a tenor guitar tuned GDAE. I wouldn't want the other 4 strings longer than 22", and didn't know of a good way to get that low C string longer. This idea looks excellent. Now add in some pinpoint capos and it has many interesting possibilities for alternate tunings too. 
> 
> Maybe I'l ask Herb about this. I love my Herb archtops..... an archtop version? I'm just musing on the idea at this point since I'm so happy with my standard GDAE tenors.


hey Bruce,

I would be nervous about trying the C2 string on anything shorter (22.75" in this case).

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## bruce.b

Hi Roger,
 I meant using this method to lengthen the C2 string. If it was about 27" that should be long enough. The rest of the strings 22".

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zoukboy

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## Charles E.

Very interesting tenor! That tailpiece is over the top.   Pun intended.

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zoukboy

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## zoukboy

> Hi Roger,
>  I meant using this method to lengthen the C2 string. If it was about 27" that should be long enough. The rest of the strings 22".


Ah! Sorry. I misunderstood. I can attest that A1 works very well on a 27" scale, so a slightly lighter string at C2 on that same length would probably sound amazing.  :-)

FWIW, if you want the GDAE strings on 22", you can easily add frets to that scale for the extension by dividing by .9438.  One fret would be 22/.9438=23.31".  Two frets=24.69". Three frets= 26.16".

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bruce.b

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## zoukboy

> Happy n+1, Roger! Look forward to seeing more photos and perhaps a video? 
> 
> How are you finding the pinpoint capos so far? How's the intonation on the bass course?


Hey Niall,

The capos work very well. There is a little tiny bit of a challenge when putting one on the low double course because of the big disparity in gauge between the .062" classical guitar bass string and the .034" phosphor bronze for its octave companion, but other than that they work very well. Sometimes I have to quickly fine tune the 4th string after capoing but that slight inconvenience is really worth having so many options for drone notes.

My favorites so far: 

"Open A"  -- sounds HUGE
E4 (open)
A3 (open)
E3 (capo II)
A2 (capo II)
A1 (open)

"8va Mando over D" -- really usable for Irish tunes, etc.
E4 (open)
A3 (open)
D3 (open)
G2 (open)
D2 (capo V)

"Open G over C"
D4 (tuned down 1 step)
G3 (tuned down 1 step)
D3 (open)
G2 (open)
C2 (capo III)

I haven't experimented with Bb or B tunings yet but I will soon.

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bruce.b

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## Baron Collins-Hill

I hope you can put up a video or sound clip at some point, Roger, I'd love to hear it! 

As a stylistic question, I am wondering whether you plan on strumming though all the strings on this thing or playing it more cross-picked zouk style? I ask because my style of tenor guitar playing is based around strumming rather than cross picking (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsLlTeZ2ZqI for an example) and that style really didn't hold up on the (very nice) nordic mandola that I played, though it sounded great when played more delicately. My dream instrument is something similar to what you've got (perhaps just with a single course on the low A) that I can really wail on without overdriving it in to a puddle of mush.

Part of me feels like once you get to that extended low A course there are some physical properties at play that require a more delicate touch due to the scale length and the guage of the string that make such and instrument impossible, but maybe some builder out there has done it.

Thanks again for sharing, that this is a beauty!

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zoukboy

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## bruce.b

I'm very happy with my GDAE tuned tenors, yet I go back and forth about possibly getting a 5 string with an added low C. Until this thread I didn't know of any good way to go about it since I don't want to go longer than 22" on the GDAE strings. I love the idea of 4 strings, it's part of what attracted me to tenors in the first place, and keeping the instrument as simple as possible, but I bet a low C with a long scale length using Roger's extended tenor idea would sound great. The pinpoint capos intrigue me also. I play a lot of Irish trad and using a pinpoint on the C string to have an open D would be so much fun and incredibly useful. I'm going to mull this idea over for a couple of months and if I decide to go for it I'll contact Herb and see what he has to say. It would be more than a year from now before I got it if I do it.

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zoukboy

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## zoukboy

> I hope you can put up a video or sound clip at some point, Roger, I'd love to hear it! 
> 
> As a stylistic question, I am wondering whether you plan on strumming though all the strings on this thing or playing it more cross-picked zouk style? I ask because my style of tenor guitar playing is based around strumming rather than cross picking (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsLlTeZ2ZqI for an example) and that style really didn't hold up on the (very nice) nordic mandola that I played, though it sounded great when played more delicately. My dream instrument is something similar to what you've got (perhaps just with a single course on the low A) that I can really wail on without overdriving it in to a puddle of mush.
> 
> Part of me feels like once you get to that extended low A course there are some physical properties at play that require a more delicate touch due to the scale length and the guage of the string that make such and instrument impossible, but maybe some builder out there has done it.
> 
> Thanks again for sharing, that this is a beauty!


Hello Baron,

Thanks!  Great playing on that clip, by the way!

You bring up an interesting point.  I first tried out the low A1 string idea on a 12 string and was immediately sold on it. There is a significant difference in string tension with that .062" NylW string compared to the phosphor bronze strings (16.77# vs 21-24#) but it does not present a major obstacle to me because the phosphor bronze octave string in the pair provides more resistance. To my way of thinking that would almost certainly be worse with just the NylW string in a single course.

One thing that might work well is to use the extension to lower a string to C2 or D2 while keeping the GDAE strings at 22"-23". That would be 26"-27" and with a C2 or D2 you could use a single core phosphor bronze string of .054-.056 and it would probably sound just great.

The other thing is I am approaching that low as almost being from a different instrument. For me the function of that low note is for drones, occasionally for chords, less so for melodies, so its having a different tone and requiring a slightly lighter touch is not really a disadvantage because those aspects simply reinforce that - for me - it has different function. Does that make any sense?

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Baron Collins-Hill, 

bruce.b

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## zoukboy

> I'm very happy with my GDAE tuned tenors, yet I go back and forth about possibly getting a 5 string with an added low C. Until this thread I didn't know of any good way to go about it since I don't want to go longer than 22" on the GDAE strings. I love the idea of 4 strings, it's part of what attracted me to tenors in the first place, and keeping the instrument as simple as possible, but I bet a low C with a long scale length using Roger's extended tenor idea would sound great. The pinpoint capos intrigue me also. I play a lot of Irish trad and using a pinpoint on the C string to have an open D would be so much fun and incredibly useful. I'm going to mull this idea over for a couple of months and if I decide to go for it I'll contact Herb and see what he has to say. It would be more than a year from now before I got it if I do it.


Bruce,

See my reply to Baron above re: a C2 extended bass string on a 22-23" tenor.  :-)

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## zoukboy

Played the new tenor in a session for the first time tonight and was very pleased. Everyone commented on how loud it is. I noticed it started to open up a couple of days ago and it is certainly louder than the other tenors I have owned. I used the low double string for drones (A1 and D2) and incorporated it into some accompaniments but I was mostly playing melody all night. So far so good!

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bruce.b, 

MdJ

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## mikeyes

Roger,

I loved the design with the zouk and it looks great with the TG.  Is it as loud as the zouk?  I am sure the tone is great if it is anything like the rest of his tenor guitars.

To me, Herb Taylor is the best zouk/TG luthier out there with his innovative ideas, his willingness to build anything that sounds feasible no matter how weird (I'm talking to you Roger <G>), and his consistently great instruments.  I'd love to have this one but I love my 173 and just played it in a session tonight where it not only held its own, but was played by everyone in the group because everyone seemed to love it so I won't bite the bullet, yet.  

Mike Keyes

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zoukboy

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## zoukboy

> Roger,
> 
> I loved the design with the zouk and it looks great with the TG.  Is it as loud as the zouk?  I am sure the tone is great if it is anything like the rest of his tenor guitars.


Yes, I think it is though I haven't A/B'd them. I think you would like it.  :-)

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## zoukboy

After playing this tenor for a about three months I have come to really love it. It sounds great, nice and punchy and loud. There is no problem being heard in the small session we have here. 

I have come up with three different approaches to using the pin capos to alter the tuning:

1. D²G²D³A³E⁴ with the A¹(C²) string capoed at V, and the E²(G²) string capoed at III. Low D drone + GDAE.
2. A¹A²E³A³E⁴ with the A¹(C²) string open, E²(G²) capoed at V, D³ string capoed at II. A drone tuning.
3. B¹F#²D³A³E⁴ with the A¹(C²) string capoed at II and the E²(G²) string capoed at II. Great for Bm tunes.

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bruce.b

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## Niall Anderson

> 1. D²G²D³A³E⁴ with the A¹(C²) string capoed at V, and the E²(G²) string capoed at III. Low D drone + GDAE.
> 2. A¹A²E³A³E⁴ with the A¹(C²) string open, E²(G²) capoed at V, D³ string capoed at II. A drone tuning.
> 3. B¹F#²D³A³E⁴ with the A¹(C²) string capoed at II and the E²(G²) string capoed at II. Great for Bm tunes.


I think DADAE is pretty great for D tunes - Marit Falt uses that a lot on her latmandola, particularly when swapping between melody and accompaniment. Useful for modulating to tunes in A in the same set, as well, perhaps, but that may be a particularly Scottish thing (all those GHB tunes).

Tuning 2, of course, registers on seismographs around the world when used...

Great to hear the instrument is working well for you. I have plans to go down the latmandola route at some point - will be interesting to compare notes when/ if that happens!

Niall

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zoukboy

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## fox

Hi Rodger, did you ever make a video  using this amazing instrument?

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## Lord of the Badgers

we MUST hear it!!!

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## Charles E.

Ditto.

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## zoukboy

I haven't yet but will try to get some thing recorded soon.

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## Niall Anderson

There's a video on Herb Taylor's website (gallery of sold tenor guitars). Be great to hear more of the instrument if you get a chance, though, Roger.

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## zoukboy

> There's a video on Herb Taylor's website (gallery of sold tenor guitars). Be great to hear more of the instrument if you get a chance, though, Roger.


I had forgotten about that, Niall. That clip doesn't really do the sound justice since Herb was just using the onboard mic on his video recorder.  I will try and get a proper recording of it and post it here before long.

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fox

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## Niall Anderson

For reference (having found the URL now), the video is at 

http://www.herbtaylor.com/instruments/tenorguitar/i207/

although I can't get it to run just now - my PC must not have the correct plug-ins installed currently! It has worked in the past though, so suspect it's just me...

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## Lord of the Badgers

I only got sound and no video... Confusing!

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## zoukboy

> Hi Roger,
>  I meant using this method to lengthen the C2 string. If it was about 27" that should be long enough. The rest of the strings 22".


Meant to reply to this and forgot - Bruce, I knew that I wanted approx. 23" scale for the shorter strings, and Herb determined that the longest advisable scale for the extended bass strings was 27", so working back from 27" and multiplying by .9438 (the formula to reduce a scale by one fret) three times we arrived at 22.69", which was well within the ballpark.

You could do the reverse, working back from 22", by dividing by .9438 three times (if you wanted the three fret extension). That would make the longer scale length 26.1"

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bruce.b

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## bruce.b

I just reread this thread because I'm in discussions with Herb about building me another tenor. I love #205 that Herb built for me, but I'm thinking about something very different. So far, a longer scale, 22.75 vs 21.25, a through body neck with the tailpiece post coming up through a hole in the soundboard, like Roger's, and a cutaway body to easily access the higher notes. I'm leaning towards a light soundboard construction and bridge, again like on the one here, or possibly a super light lattice soundboard and a zero down pressure bridge like on #183. Soundboard will be spruce. I was planning on a standard four string tenor in octave mandolin tuning (GDAE), but this thread has me thinking about a low fifth string. Probably not, but I'm thinking about it. Maybe pinpoint tuners on the G And D strings so I can play in AEAE without retuning. It will certainly sound unlike #205, which is a short scale archtop. I'm looking for a great sounding, powerful little tenor, mostly for fiddle tunes, but also to experiment with more chordal playing and maybe even some fingerpicking. Thoughts very welcome since I'm still in the early stages of this project.

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zoukboy

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## fox

That sounds exciting Bruce!
The last few I have built have one long neck right though the body & a pin in the tail block to take the strain, they work very well.  
I love my nylon string tenors though!

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## zoukboy

> I just reread this thread because I'm in discussions with Herb about building me another tenor. I love #205 that Herb built for me, but I'm thinking about something very different. So far, a longer scale, 22.75 vs 21.25, a through body neck with the tailpiece post coming up through a hole in the soundboard, like Roger's, and a cutaway body to easily access the higher notes. I'm leaning towards a light soundboard construction and bridge, again like on the one here, or possibly a super light lattice soundboard and a zero down pressure bridge like on #183. Soundboard will be spruce. I was planning on a standard four string tenor in octave mandolin tuning (GDAE), but this thread has me thinking about a low fifth string. Probably not, but I'm thinking about it. Maybe pinpoint tuners on the G And D strings so I can play in AEAE without retuning. It will certainly sound unlike #205, which is a short scale archtop. I'm looking for a great sounding, powerful little tenor, mostly for fiddle tunes, but also to experiment with more chordal playing and maybe even some fingerpicking. Thoughts very welcome since I'm still in the early stages of this project.


Bruce:

I don't know how a zero DP bridge would work with the through-neck and post tailpiece. Good question to ask Herb. The floating bridge on mine works great. The only thing I would do differently is to have Herb use an all wood bridge. Mine has a bone saddle on top and while that seems to work fine for the wound strings I think the tone of the one unwound string (E) could be better.

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## Jill McAuley

I emailed Herb yesterday inquiring about getting a tenor guitar built - question for folks who have his instruments: does he tend to reply quickly or should I anticipate a bit of a wait?

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## bruce.b

He's backpacking. Coming back sometime Sunday. What are you thinking about? His tenors are great, I love mine.

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## Jill McAuley

Ah, good to know, thanks Bruce!

Still not decided on whether to go flat top or arch top, but I'm particularly smitten with a few in his "sold" gallery: # 165, #172 (arch tops), and #173 (flat top).

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## bruce.b

I love the looks of both 172 and 173. Mike sounds really good on his videos where he's playing 173.

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## bruce.b

I've been listening to the tenor guitar videos on Herb's site. The video that I like best is of Roger playing #178. I believe it's the combination of that guitar's tone and the open C tuning. I just love the sound and Roger's playing. My guess is open C on a tenor, going from the starting point of GDAE would be GCGE. Roger, is this right? I'd love to play this tune like this!

Anyway, it has me completely rethinking a possible build. I think I'd like to pretty much copy this build, but with a 22" scale and trim like on 172. I really love this video, the sound is powerful and beautiful.

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zoukboy

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## zoukboy

Thanks, Bruce. It's CGCG, which are the same intervals of open G bouzouki tuning GDGD. That tune is one of mine, "Emergence," and I recorded it on "The Janissary Stomp" with Chipper Thompson. I posted the tab to it on our FaceBook page a while back: https://www.facebook.com/JanissaryStomp/

Now you got me thinking I need to try the tune on my Taylor tenor. I don't think I've tried it in open G yet...

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## bruce.b

Thanks Roger. I'll check it out.

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## bruce.b

Just a heads up here, I have no idea what I'm talking about. It's the tuning and Roger's playing. There is a spruce topped tenor that he's playing like this and it sounds great too. I like them all. I need to buy one of each.

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## Jill McAuley

And I of course obsessed on this thread and have been emailing Herb and will be having a tenor guitar made - sending the deposit off and getting on the list for his autumn build cycle! To keep it do-able for my finances we're going for a simple "no frills" tenor - super excited! Hopefully finished by the end of the year which would be just in time for my birthday/Christmas!

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fox

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## CES

Congrats, Jill!! Herb's really doing some awesome work!

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Jill McAuley

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## bruce.b

Hi Jill, what did you decide on? I love them all.

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## Jill McAuley

Herb had a cutaway build started that got abandoned, so he's building that one up for me now. Flat top, sound port, top binding only, sapele sides and back, and the top will be either cedar or spruce.

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## thx712517

Photos please, when you get it. If I ever win the lotto I'm going for one.

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Jill McAuley

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## Jill McAuley

No worries, will do!

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