# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  K4 on Ebay

## Gary Hedrick

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181303690940

Interesting.....says it is Loar "Era".....1922 to 1924 yet has Handel's....the pictures are so dark you can't tell anything about it...the serial number is in the right set but has been inked over....it has a truss rod....but you can't see anything and the price is wellllllll Nuts..

I feel like saying what they do on ESPN......"Come on Man!!!!"

Getting Cranky in my old age I guess....

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## Glassweb

Probably not the original tuners... I can see a different footprint and there was probably some work done on the headstock... maybe a break on the headstock scroll... hard to tell. The rest of it looks pretty straight... price seems steep to me but hey... it's a truss-rodded K4!

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## pfox14

S/N 75542 dates to 1924, so technically it is a "Loar era" K-4. Definitely not the original tuners as Gibson stopped using Handel tuners during WW1, because they were German. Price is ridiculous.

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## Gary Hedrick

I remember a thread that finally flushed out that Handel tuners weren't German but made in New York if I recall correctly... That thread caused me to question whether Santa Claus was real also......two long held beliefs crushed by the Internet.....now what's next.......Elvis isn't dead????

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hank

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## JFDilmando

This one has been for sale for some time, as one could imagine with the asking price.... it was discussed at some length here in the Cafe, in another thread.... Owner is expressing an increased interest in selling, and so the ebay advert...
The appraisal is a hand written one from a "reputable instrument dealer".  $25 thousand is about as high as I have EVER seen anyone reference for a K4.... I have been told that one changed hands for $16k recently, but I personally have never seen one sell for anything approaching that kind of number....  who knows.

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## Barry Platnick

Definitely scroll repair.

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## goaty76

I'm going to go against the grain on this one and say I don't find the price so outrageous.  Yes it's high. But for what it is, not crazy. If this instrument was at a major dealer I think they would probably price it for at least 15k. It has a lot going for it. It's a very desired instrument from the most desirable era with the most desired features.  It looks to be in nice condition with original case and mostly original hardware.  And the tuners are replaced with real F-style Handels. I don't know if I would take off any points for that. 
One thing I do find a little odd is that the Mandolin Cafe itself has commented on it's price being too high. I really enjoy, respect, and appreciate this forum, as I'm sure most of the mandolin community does. From the Cafe's comment you can almost guaranty it won't sell. Maybe Scott or who ever put up the comments could have used their personal account to discuss the price. I know if I was the seller I would be pissed about it. 
And who's to say what's an outragous price. Remember in the 70's when those crazy guys were asking 10k for a Loar F-5. It reminds me of something I once heard, "You can't pay too much for a vintage instrument, only too soon."  No ill intention meant by any of this, just my personal opinion. 

Phil

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Bluejay, 

Hendrik Ahrend

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## pfox14

I think that you have to take into account that a K-4 is for all intents and purposes a pretty obscure instrument. We're not talking about a mandolin or guitar, which command high prices because of the popularity of the instruments themselves. We're not even talking about a K-5, which IMO was one of the most beautiful instruments Gibson ever made. Is it fairly rare? Yes. Does that mean it's valuable? I don't know.

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## allenhopkins

> ...If this instrument was at a major dealer I think they would probably price it for at least 15k…It's a *very desired instrument* from the most desirable era with the most desired features...


Yeah, but the seller's asking $3.5K _more_ than that -- as an opening bid.  And I'm not sure it's a "very desired instrument" -- perhaps as far as mandocellos go, but as pointed out, that's a limited universe of potential purchasers.

A very nice instrument, but not at that price, IMHO.

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## goaty76

Not desired?  Really?  It's pretty up there for Vintage Instrument enthusiasts as well as mandocello players. There are hundreds of guitars and mandolins that have sat in dealer inventory waiting for the market to catch up to them. Have you ever seen a K-4 sit around?  I know of two that have sold in the last year at dealers. They went almost immediately, one before it could even be publicly listed. 

Phil

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allenhopkins

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## Jim Garber

> I remember a thread that finally flushed out that Handel tuners weren't German but made in New York if I recall correctly... That thread caused me to question whether Santa Claus was real also......two long held beliefs crushed by the Internet.....now what's next.......Elvis isn't dead????


*Big thread on Handel tuners* from back in 2005. The final conclusion (and I verified with a few vintage big names... Handels were either made by or for the Louis Handel Company which also supplied hardware and pearl to luthiers around the country. I am not sure why Gibson stopped using them or even to say they were not made in Germany but it would not make all that much sense to stop importing them in 1918 since WWI was actually coming to a close then -- the war started in 1914.

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## Gary Hedrick

that's the thread I remembered.......

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## allenhopkins

> ...Have you ever seen a K-4 sit around?  I know of two that have sold in the last year at dealers. They went almost immediately...


1. Haven't seen K-4's "sit around," but have seen very few on the market.  Don't disagree that they'd be attractive to certain players and collectors, only opining that this is a quite restricted universe of potential buyers.

2. Did the ones that went "almost immediately" go for $18.5K, which is what this seller's asking?

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## JFDilmando

goaty...
I take your point about discussion of price being possibly detrimental to sellers wishes, hopes, expectations.... I then assume that a free discussion regarding opinions, thoughts, comments, on any issue... in a free, and open discussion forum, is then in appropriate, if it might impact the interests of a third party?

Sorry, but I am not going there.  I would argue that this forum is exactly the place where open discussion of the value of mandolin related items should reside.  Would I be pissed off, if I were this seller, and this forum was challenging my asking price.... absolutely.  I think your point is very well taken.  Should we feel that no one should comment upon this because it might upset the seller.... absolutely not.

Should this community sit on it's hands when a fake appears for fear of disappointing a seller who wishes to move it to an unsuspecting ignorant???  Where does the free discussion of value stop for fear of financial interests....  not here I hope.

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Bluejay

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## goaty76

> 2. Did the ones that went "almost immediately" go for $18.5K, which is what this seller's asking?



I don't know but probably not.  But it raises the question "If something sells immediately was it priced correctly or below value?"  K-4's are hard to accurately value because you can't really follow market sales trends on them like you would an F-4.  It's hard and this seller was given poor information in a professional appraisal that really helps no one.  I think he is just trying to figure it out.  

Phil

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## goaty76

> goaty...
> I take your point about discussion of price being possibly detrimental to sellers wishes, hopes, expectations.... I then assume that a free discussion regarding opinions, thoughts, comments, on any issue... in a free, and open discussion forum, is then in appropriate, if it might impact the interests of a third party?
> 
> Sorry, but I am not going there.  I would argue that this forum is exactly the place where open discussion of the value of mandolin related items should reside.  Would I be pissed off, if I were this seller, and this forum was challenging my asking price.... absolutely.  I think your point is very well taken.  Should we feel that no one should comment upon this because it might upset the seller.... absolutely not.
> 
> Should this community sit on it's hands when a fake appears for fear of disappointing a seller who wishes to move it to an unsuspecting ignorant???  Where does the free discussion of value stop for fear of financial interests....  not here I hope.



John,
I think you might have missed the point of what I was trying to say with that.  Maybe I wasn't clear.  It was not that I feel the *people* in this forum should not discuss the price of an instrument. I am all for that.  I just found it a little off putting that the "Mandolin Café", which I find to be a great resource, put up on their homepage and social media feeds that this instrument way to overpriced.  I know they are free to put up whatever they want it just seemed odd how adamant they were about it.  

Phil

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## goaty76

> John,
> I think you might have missed the point of what I was trying to say with that.  Maybe I wasn't clear.  It was not that I feel the *people* in this forum should not discuss the price of an instrument. I am all for that.  I just found it a little off putting that the "Mandolin Café", which I find to be a great resource, put up on their homepage and social media feeds that this instrument way to overpriced.  I know they are free to put up whatever they want it just seemed odd how adamant they were about it.  
> 
> Phil


Yeah, I just replied to my own reply.  Maybe they should point out pricing both high and low.  Maybe it is a good thing.  I'm torn on the issue now.  I don't think I'm going to discuss it any further if I can't even convince myself of the argument one way or the other.  I'll end it the way I ended a post on another forum this morning, "Or I could be wrong about everything.  Wouldn't be the first or last time."

Phil

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## sgarrity

It's free publicity for the seller and maybe they'll see this discussion and come to their senses.  That price is ridiculous.  I'd ask that guitar shop how many K4's they've sold for $25,000.

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## allenhopkins

*This one* apparently sold for $12.5K.  Skinner sold *this one* for $7K, 12 years ago.

Darn few data points to construct a sales profile.  The one that's currently being offered for $18.5K shows up several times on the web, but few others -- which, I guess, is one of my points: not many on the market, so while they're undoubtedly rare, there's not a bustling market in Gibson mandocelli, and what data we find about K-4 prices doesn't show a $18K+ precedent.

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## JFDilmando

Goaty.... I can see your point very well, regarding the "site" coming out with a statement of value, rather than the community discussing the value....  you have a valid point there I think....

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## mrmando

Not really. It's the site owner's opinion, and he is an individual just like the rest of us, with every right to express himself. 

Not to mention that he's right. There's no reason this should be more than $14K.

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## Gail Hester

Worth it at twice the price. :Grin:

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Bluejay

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## BradKlein

…says the tiny woman holding the Gibson F-4.

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## Gail Hester

Brad, you made me spill tea on my keyboard but it made my day. :Laughing:

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## Glassweb

> …says the tiny woman holding the Gibson F-4.


brilliant!

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## Hendrik Ahrend

> says the tiny woman holding the Gibson F-4.


Of course you thought of that, Brad. Your last name is haunting you. The German "klein" means "tiny".  :Laughing:

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