# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  FAQ on big muddy mandolins?

## lastchair

I did try search and found some information, but none on the "violin scale" length. After some diligent digging on Google, I found this link to Big Muddy Mandolins. It has a complex table of model #'s, wood choices, and violin scale length instruments. Of course I could call and ask, but I wanted to get the opinion of our serious MAS experts.

1. what are the sound differences of the wood listed? Mahogany, Maple, Walnut, Rosewood [all with spruce tops], and All Mahogany. Anyone can describe the tonal characteristics of these woods, and which you prefer?

2. there is a mini-mo (is this for kids?) and hurray! a violin scale length one [short fingers here]. Being a violin player, I've been having trouble with my Eastman. Is this the answer? Has anyone played one? Is the tone compromised from the usual 14" scale length?

Any other opinions? I read that these are flattops and backs. How does the tone compare with the arched styles?

Thanks in advance!

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## rohan

Call MIke D. and explain your concerns. He a good guy.

BigMuddy

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## jefflester

correct Big Muddy link

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## lastchair

thanks, I'm sure he is a good guy. But last time I called a good guy for mandolin information I ended up ordering one.  

I was hoping fans of Big Muddy can tell me which one they like. Just procrastinating on calling Mike...

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## Keith Erickson

It was always refreshing to hear from the Mid-Mo owners when Mid-Mo was going strong. They were so positive and they were the best salesforce that Mid-Mo had.

Now that they are now Big Muddy, we don't hear anything like we did during the Mid-Mo days.

I would love to hear a review or two from a Big Muddy owner

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## bradeinhorn

i was very impressed with them out at mandolin bros a couple months back. can't give a full review as i didn't spend too much time with them. i'm sure others have....just a wait...

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## powercat

Since they, Big Muddy / Mid-Mo, have had to start all over again, their website has become quite minimal, and doesn't give you much information. One hopes that when / if they get back up to speed, they'll be able to publish at least as good a website as they used to have.
From the link previously mentioned (Big Muddy) they appear to still be making most of the models they used to. I am a beginning mandolin player who owns a Mid-Mo M-11w (Wide neck, all mahogany). A number of people have told me what a great sound it has for what it cost. Love that satin mahogany finish too.

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## rohan

I've had my MidMo M1 for about a year. I've been back to "The Music Emporium" a couple of times to test drive other, more expensive mando's but haven't found one I like more than the M1. Easy to play, good sound. It's my first stringed instrument. The differences seem to be mostly cosmetic. A good looking mando is not high on my list. Small hands? From my piano days long ago, stretch dem fingers. I'm currently trying to play some OM so maybe some compromizes might be necessary if your hands are mitt challenged.

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## Caleb

They really should get a good website up and running. It would be hard to tell how many folks have heard about them, went to their site and gave up. In my view, it would be better to have no website than one that offers little in the way of options and information. 

And, fwiw, I really hope they get back up on their feet and do even better than they did under the MM name.

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## Eric F.

I love my Big Muddy M-4, the one with the rosewood back. I bought it from a store with a good selection of oval hole mandos, including several other Big Muddy models. I preferred the M-4 to the more expensive mandolins there, including one that was more than 2 grand. I liked the M-11 - all mahogany - Big Muddy next best. In fact, I considered getting it as well, but cooler heads prevailed. 

Talking about tone is difficult. But I'd say this mando is dark and complex with a bit of snap to it. It sounds great played with a guitar. The M-11 had a funkier sound to me. It seemed to be begging to have some blues played on it. The M-4 made me want to play O'Carolan. 

The M-4 and M-11 are consistently my favorite Mid-Mo/Big Muddy models for tone. I can't comment on the violin scale length, but I also suggest contacting Mike Dulak for more info. I think he's been too busy making mandolins to worry much about the Web site.

These mandolins are very plain looking but sound great. They will tend to lack some of the "cut" of an archtop, but I've seen a bluegrass band where the mando player had a maple-backed Mid-Mo. Hope that helps.

Edit: I doubt the scale length is inhibiting your playing. I think you just need to get used to it, though I've been wrong before. I'd think your hands would have to be amazingly tiny to be the problem. Remember, the mandolin is a pretty small instrument.

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## lastchair

True... I need to work at it, but it's frustrating to be able to play Bach Sonata and Partitas on the violin, double and triple stops, then can't reach the exact same chords on the mandolin. And if I get tendonitis, my teacher will kill. I'm supposed to be preparing for a recital playing Beethoven violin concerto and I'm over here on Mandolin Cafe instead... one wonders why, I think it's escapism because I know I'll mess up on my recital... &lt;sigh&gt;

My fingers are pretty short, my pinkie (4.7 cm). My index finger is (6 cm), middle finger (6.8 cm) and the distance across my palm is 7.5 cm. Anyone have shorter fingers than me? Okay, I'm not giving up!

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## Michael H Geimer

Well, I've been less vocal only because I haven't found a catch phrase anywhere near as nice as " Go Mid-Mo! ".

I do have a Big Muddy mandola I picked up from another cafe member. I can easily say it is NICER than either of my Mid-mo's. It sounds great, looks great, plays great. Man! That thing sounds rich.

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## John Flynn

Here is a link to a review of tonewoods for guitars. The characteristics for Big-Muddys should be similar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonewood

Mike Dulak told me he likes the rosewood the best. It is the loudest. I think it is the most "guitar-like," which is not a bad thing. I think of mahogany as a "dry" sounding, without a lot of overtones, which I like. I have a flat top with walnut and it tends to have a sweeter sound, compared to the others. The all-mahogany is just going to have more of that wood's characteristics that one with a spruce top. But those are all just words. You should go somewhere that you can try each one. One thing to know about tonewood choices that have kept model lines alive: For every choice, there are people who think that is the best choice. It is all a matter of personal taste and choice.

The "Kid-Mo's" or "Mini-Mo's" are strictly beginners stuff IMHO. They sound tinny to me. They have bolt-on necks and they seem more "mass produced" than the regular line. They might be good travel mandos. I can not see any advantage to a smaller scale, except for a child.

You should call Mike. He is great.

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## Keith Erickson

> Well, I've been less vocal only because I haven't found a catch phrase anywhere near as nice as " Go Mid-Mo! ".


Ah yes I do remember that catch phrase from long ago. 

Just my opinion Michael...

...I always thought of you as the unofficial top sales person for Mid-Mo.

I'm glad to hear that your Big Muddy mandola has done right by you

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## JEStanek

I can't help with ideas on the scale length but go to Folk of the Wood video samplers to hear different back/top wood combos. May not be the best recordings but you can hear differences between models.

Jamie

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## lastchair

Anyway I did talk to Mike like you'all suggested. He's a fiddler for 30 years also and is the only guy making violin-scale mandolins these days. He's sending me out a demo violin-scale made of rosewood. He said he likes the rosewood because of tonal complexity. I think the next thing I'll do is mosey over to the folk of the wood videos and get a tonal comparison there.

I still like to hear what owners say, even if opinions are all over the place. Usually, violins are made of maple back and sides, with spruce top. It's pretty cool that mandolins can be made of all different woods.

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## Eric F.

> He's sending me out a demo violin-scale made of rosewood.


Mike rocks, doesn't he?

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## rohan

Big Muddy roll.

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## Keith Erickson

One thing that I did find surprising was that most of the Mid-Mo owners were proud on how "loud" their mandolin played.

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## Michael H Geimer

Oh yeah. That's true, and they project well, too. My M-0 is not overly loud, but I have played it unplugged at several (non-bluegrass) acoustic jams. I had no trouble getting my sound out, and after one session a friend actually said I was 'stepping on people' by playing too loud (I didn't expect to hear that, and I backed off afterwards).

What flattops DON'T have is "bark" and "chop" the way an F-holed archtop has those qualities. But, IMO it would be foolish to pass over a Big Muddy because of that caveat. It's more a of non-issue than a real issue in my experience.

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## steve V. johnson

The wood thing is tough without a bunch of experience... There are various discussions in the Builders' area about "tone," "loudness," et al, and there's some stuff in there about tonewood sounds. One generality (dangerous, those, and contested at almost every turn...) is that the top and bracing make more difference than the back & side woods, and this is somewhat more true in guitars than in mandolins.

It is a major difference in appearance and a much more subtle difference in tone.

I had a maple Mid-Mo octave mandolin thru here and it was sweet. I've heard a Mid-Mo octave that was rosewood b/s and I liked it better, but it had been played a -LOT- more, so I don't know if it was a fair comparison.

I've played four Mid-Mo mandolins, two maple, one mahogany and one rosewood. Not all in the same room, tho... _I_ liked the rosewood, but I'm a guitar and big bouzouki guy, so I have a bit of a prejudice.  

I can't honestly say that they sounded radically different from one another, as I recall it.

As others have noted, this is not an instrument with a traditional "A" nor "F" mandolin sound, and it has another character from many other flat-tops, too.

Good luck with your sample from Mike, and it's just wonderful that he does a violin scale model!

stv

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## lastchair

Okay thanks, I'll report back when I get it. I'm not trying to be funny, but I still don't know what a bark sounds like on a mandolin. Maybe I ought to go to a shop and ask for a demo, so I'll know. Does the Eastman f-hole I have bark? If so, how do I make it bark?

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## Eric F.

Dangle a bone in front and see what happens.

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## Michael H Geimer

Bark is subjective, of course. But I'll try to explain since I used the term.

Bark is a quality of sound you might hear when you overdrive an archtop. By overdrive I mean just that, putting more energy into the soundboard than it can handle. Overdrive a flat-top and the notes will lose definition, and paradoxically, might even sound wimpy and thin. Overdriving an archtop, OTOH, tends to compress the sound, producing a mid-range "honk" during the initial attack. That "honk" is what I meant by "bark".

"Bark" might also simply mean an aggressive, out front, loud, tone from a mandolin.

Does your Eastman 2-point have "bark"? It certainly might, but you'd to tell us what you hear. It also might have it, but perhaps you never coaxed that tone out of it. I wonder if it is a meaningful quality to all, after reading above about the Bach and Beethoven you work on. I would think one would rather not hear Bark on Bach!

(sp)

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## JGWoods

Waste deep in the Big Muddy

Finger length- hmmm my pinky is 7.5 cm, my index is 10 cm- definitely got big hands. then again i'm 203cm tall

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## lastchair

thanks for the replies. hmmmm, I've never overdriven anything, certainly not a dog, nor my mandolin. I will try. Although you're right, I haven't settled on a musical genre to play with my mandolin yet. I can play hymns for singalongs at church gatherings, as well as classical, fiddle tunes, and give a try at bluegrass, jazz and anything else. I'm afraid I'll have to get a mandolin for each style!

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## cbarry

How about, "Get Muddy!"
Kind of like Kinky Friedman's Texas governor's race slogan, "Go Kinky!"
I'm crazy about my Big Muddy M-11 mahogany-top wide neck. My Rigels are getting jealous.
Chuck
I don't bark or bite.

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## lastchair

They're great aren't they? I received the "demo" M-4 violin scale and can't believe how easy it is to play, how quick the response and how round and warm the sound is. It has lower tension than my archtops, an oval hole to give a nice sustain and nice big frets. I'm afraid my high tension archtops might get jealous too.   My violins are definitely jealous.

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## delsbrother

Just FYI for anyone in the LA area, McCabes in Santa Monica has a bunch of Mid-Mos in stock (like 4-5 in different wood configurations). This was the first time I'd been able to play one in the flesh, and like others have said they have a great flat-top sound. If you're in the market and are in the neighborhood, you should go check them out.

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## Jim MacDaniel

Thought I would post my question in this FAQ thread, rather than in a new thread:

What are the dimensions of a standard scale Mid-Mo/Big Muddy, including overall length, max body width, max width of the headstock including tuners, and height of the sides? 

I ask because have one of those Eastman A-style fiberglass cases which have never fit any mandolin I've owned (they've eather been too long, or the headstock too wide). But I think it might just work for a Big Muddy/Mid-Mo just, since if I recall, they are a little shorter than a Gibson Snakehead for example, and don't have the wide headstock like on a Flatiron Pancake. 

BTW, I already know it sounds crazy to buy a mandolin just to fit in a case, instead of the other way around -- but I love that case and can't bear to part with it. (But then again, I once bought a Mini since it fit in my 1920-built garage better than a four door sedan.)

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## Jim MacDaniel

Received an answer to my question off-line, but wanted to post it here for posterity:

Total length 24 ¼”, not counting the tailpin
Body width at widest part – 9 11/16th”
Distance from end of headstock to end of fingerboard – 15 ¼”
Max width of headstock including tuners –3 ½”
Approximate height from back of mandolin to top of bridge is 2 11/16th”

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## MandoSquirrel

So, will it fit? :Confused:

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## Jim MacDaniel

> So, will it fit?


Yes, although it won't fit snugly (but then I can always add extra padding to limit movement within the case).

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## Mandojulie

Hi,

Lastchair, did you like the violin scale Big Muddy.  My hands are just barely bigger than yours.  I've been working on it for 2-1/2 years and still cannot get the bluegrass G chord.  I've thought maybe the violin scale might help me too.  What's your experience?

Julie

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## uinsin42

Mike Dulak has a  Big Muddy M-4 Rosewood back and sides, Adirondack Spruce top and Ebony Fretboard in the post less that two weeks from the conversation I had with him!!!.  I live in Southern Ireland and by his calculations I should have the instrument in ten days approx.  Mike is a witty guy and fun to converse with.

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## Peter Kurtze

uinsin, you've made a fine choice!  :Wink: 

Enjoy it . . .

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## JEStanek

Excellent choice.  I'm sure you'll be well pleased.  Report back to us!

Jamie

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## uinsin42

Big Muddy M4 arrived WOW!!!

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## Steve Jeter

Im very confused, maybe you can share your opinions.  I had a Big Muddy  wide neck. I really liked it . Dont have it anymoe.  I can get another , for close to what I can get a Eastman 505 for. used. 
 It is a heck of a decision , not being able to play them side by side. I know I really liked the Muddy, but then wonder if I would like the 505 more. 
 If you could get either for around the same price , which would you get? 
 I like BG , but to be honest I dont really play it that much. I guess Grismans , type BG is the type I like best . 
 Love the Celtic , and melody stuff .  Peter Ostrusko sp??? 
 I guess this is like asking boxers or briefs , but I am in a quandry
 Steve

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## uinsin42

I have little knowledge of particular brands so I'm guided by the luthiers reputation and instrument reviews. My Big Muddy M4 cost $700 (with hard Case included) purchased direct from Mike Dulak and it's not a wide neck but thats of no consequence in my case. see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VATDL6j2q5Q.  Thats a Mid Missouri M4 on UTUBE and appears identical to the Big Muddy M4. The other mandolin I have is $100 Chinese job, obviously theres no contest.  I was not a great fan of mandolins but I've been converted by this Big Muddy M4.

Sorry I cannot be of more assistance as I have played a hand made Octave Mandola and a Chinese made McBride's Irish Bouzouki previously.  Folk and traditional music is a late vocation in my case.

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## bratsche

Steve - I seem to recall reading on here somewhere that the Eastman mandolins have very thin or narrow necks, so if you already liked playing on a wide neck, that might be a problem.  No personal experience here, but maybe an Eastman owner will provide more input.

uinsin42 - So you're the one I was chatting with on my YouTube page.  Glad you are "WOWed" by the M4 - I thought you would be!  :Smile: 

bratsche

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## Steve Jeter

> Steve - I seem to recall reading on here somewhere that the Eastman mandolins have very thin or narrow necks, so if you already liked playing on a wide neck, that might be a problem.  No personal experience here, but maybe an Eastman owner will provide more input.
> 
> uinsin42 - So you're the one I was chatting with on my YouTube page.  Glad you are "WOWed" by the M4 - I thought you would be! 
> 
> bratsche


Thanks 
 Yeah . I decided to go with what I know , Dulaks doozies  aka Big Muddy / Mid Mo

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## frshwtrbob

Steve, 
I just received a used Big Muddy MM-8 (aka the "mini-mo" w/ bolt on standard scale neck and 1 1/2 inch body - econo/traveller model) from Mike Dulak AND I also have a 2010 Eastman 515. The Eastman has a more pronounced/sharper "V" and a 1 3/16 nut and a 12" radius ebony board vs. the "softer and chunkier V" of the MM-8 w/a flat board and 1 1/8 nut.
---I think you may have to get used to the absence of the Eastman's glossy neck finish more than the shape. Not that the non laquer Big Muddy is uncomfortable at all. Some call it similiar to a speed neck. I agree w/ Bratsche's description of it having a roughly hewn feel to it. In fact, it's a welcomed change of pace - as much so, as the sound difference of an F hole's punch in relation to the throaty fullness of a flat top oval. 
One of the many things that drew me toward Mike's models are the ongoing compliments/opinions of how easy they are to play and the fact that you can request extra bridges of varying heights for high, low and medium action. 
I just changed mine today from medium to low and it worked like a charm. I was contemplating changing strings from the recommended 11 16 24 38 gauges to a lighter set to relax the natural slight bow/neck relief and induce a "tad" lower action but I didn't want to sacrifice the "beefier" sound that the medium lights are giving me. So I tried the lower bridge and it gave me the best of both worlds. Now the set of Bobby Osbourne GHS phosphour/bronze (same gauges as above) that i ordered will be put to good use. GHS advertises that they last a little longer than the regular medium lights.
Hope that helps in your decision making. 
Bob G

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## uinsin42

Why is the Mid-Missouri considered a "Beginners" mandolin?

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## Brent Hutto

I believe the "beginner" comment was regarding the "Mini" models, not the main Big Muddy range. Although that said, a lot of folks have reported buying Big Muddy instruments as their first mandolins. But no more so than any other brand which offers models reaching down into the entry-level price points.

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## epicentre

> Why is the Mid-Missouri considered a "Beginners" mandolin?


Because some people just CAN'T STAND made in USA excellence for under 1K.................or just live to diss............who knows.  Maybe they feel if they say it often enough, folks will believe it.........DON'T......... They're a great mandolin.

I've also heard them described as a "learners" mandolin.........True enough.......One should never stop learning.........

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