# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  What instrument is the hardest? My experience

## Gunnar

So someone on another forum asked me how I would rank the instruments I play by difficulty, and those of you who are multi-instrumentalists will know this is difficult, but I did my best to break it down, heres my essay.
Ok, little disclaimer here, I picked these instruments up in about six month intervals, so the ones I started later would be easier proportionally.

Ok, to the topic at hand, Im gonna try to rank my five main instruments by difficulty, in a few different categories. The instruments are (in the order I picked them up) Guitar, Harmonica, Fiddle and Mandolin, and Ill add Ukulele for fun.

Beginning phase:

1. Mandolin

2. Banjo

3. Fiddle

4. Harmonica

5. Guitar

Bonus

1.5 Ukulele

So, that list was for just starting out each instrument, and its not objective because I had a different level of experience before picking each one up. The mandolin was easiest because I already had lots of experience, and the Ukulele cuz its similar to guitar. Guitar was hardest cuz I had no prior experience.

Getting good:

1. Banjo

2. Guitar

3. Mandolin

4. Fiddle

5. Harmonica

Bonus

4.5 Ukulele

So, this is a very different list, its about when youve been playing a while, how easy is it to start improvising or playing more advanced material, and just being comfortable just randomly playing with the instrument. This list is influenced by both the amount of time Ive played each instrument as well as the layout of the instrument. I find the banjo to be super intuitive and easy to play, and play with, but others may feel differently (but theyre not making this list, so they cant complain :joy :Smile:  definitely the harmonica is the hardest to get good at because there is a lack of both learning materials, and good players to emulate, and same with ukulele, most people who play it only play a few chords and sing.

Physically:

1. Guitar

2. Banjo

3. Mandolin

4. Harmonica

5. Fiddle

Bonus

3.5 Ukulele

6. Bass
So, (I say that a lot), this is basically which one is physically the easiest. Honestly, it depends on whether Im sitting and where, but the only reason banjo is lower than guitar is my shoulder gets tired holding my arm up in first position. Ive always found ukuleles awkward to hold, and depending on your lungs and the shape of your harmonica, it can be unpleasant too. And its no secret that the fiddle is an awkward thing to hold, I havent had any trouble holding it in a long time, but my bowing arm gets very tired. I added bass for giggles, its bass guitar (not upright) and theyre super heavy.

Overall:

1. Guitar

2. Banjo

3. Mandolin

4. Harmonica

5. Fiddle

Bonus

0.5 Ukulele

So, this is the last one, its an all things considered list. The Ukulele is the easiest, because the simplicity of the chords and the forgiving nature of the instrument make it very easy to make nice music. Theres a reason why so many people play them, and if youre a serious musician, there is some advanced material to learn, a lot of innovation waiting to happen, and a very low Audience expectation when you take it out.

The guitar is next, everyone has one, and its very forgiving similar to ukulele. Theres a reason everyone plays one. And when youre advancing, theres so much material out there to learn and numerous artists to look up to.

Banjo, I found the open tuning super easy to use and think about, and theres a lot of material to learn.

Mandolin, this one is pretty easy cuz theres such a devoted following, information isnt too hard to find, and theres lots of material and great players. Also, since its rather obscure, its a great conversation starter.

Harmonica, this one is hard both to think about and to get good at, theres several notes missing unless you can do advanced overblowing techniques. Theres very few real musicians playing these, and material is hard to find. On the upside, expectations are low when you get one out, and people will be surprised if you play well.

Fiddle wins most difficult, this wasnt a blowout victory, it was a close contest, but fiddle is more difficult because theres no frets, the bow is a **** and its loud, so not forgiving. But there is a great community of players you can find, lots of instructional materials, and no limits to the possibilities of the instrument.

I hope you enjoyed this list, its by no means scripture, its just my experience.

And for the record, when I say harmonica I mean ten hole diatonic, not chromatic

Now all of these were very close decisions hard to make, but its what I felt at the time.

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Billy Packard

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## mandocrucian



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Astro, 

Bob Clark, 

Eric Platt, 

Gunnar, 

hank, 

Hudmister, 

Jess L., 

Joey Anchors, 

Mark Gunter, 

Spencer, 

T.D.Nydn, 

Timbofood, 

zedmando

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## DaveGinNJ

> 


I used to play the Zu Zitter Carzay and the Trum Tupers.  Very difficult.  You don't see them much except in the Whoville area

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Amanda Lyn, 

Bob Clark, 

hank, 

MikeEdgerton, 

soliver, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

The hardest instrument would be the one you have not started yet!
I never felt like the mandolin was “hard” because I really fell in love with it, the desire was a greater driving force than discomfort.
It is always a challenge which is the fun!

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## DHopkins

I don't believe I'm coordinated enough to play a pedal steel guitar.

(For what it's worth, the jury's still out on my mandolin playing ability, too,)   ♫

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Timbofood

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## dhergert

Double bass is an extremely physical instrument to play and transport.  I highly recommend it for us older retirees, you'll get lots of exercise.  Especially on cruise ships, walking corridors, going up and down circular staircases or through revolving doorways, etc. (don't ask how I know).

In comparison, Mandolins, ukes and fiddles are kids's stuff, bluegrass banjos come close because of weight (but not size), acoustic guitars are lightweights and Dobros are closer but are still outclassed in this category.

(If you're mobility impaired like me, there are some pretty nice wheels available for double bass, but it's still very physical.)

On the bright side, you may actually get more work with double bass -- they are audience magnets.

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DavidKOS, 

j. condino, 

oinkstrings

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## Bob Clark

Forget the instruments; Tuvan throat singing seems pretty difficult to me.

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Jim Garber

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## dhergert

> ... Tuvan throat singing seems pretty difficult to me.


Hmmm, that's me, unintentionally, just about every morning.

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j. condino

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## JeffD

> So someone on another forum asked me how I would rank the instruments I play by difficulty,.


While I applaud the effort you put into making sense of the chaos, I do not think your results are universal. 

There are many individual differences that in large part determine or influence what is hard or not for an individual. A person without great muscle memory might find violin more difficult than others. Or depending on the muscle memory issues, might find concertina easier. A person whose only conception of the music is a keyboard, or woodwinds, comes at all of these other instruments very differently.

And then there is what you expect to do on the instrument. If the extent of your guitar playing expectations are four or five chords and strumming, while you look to play melody on mandolin, then of course the guitar looks easier. But if your goal is to play melody on the guitar, and chord slamming on the mandolin, the reverse is true. 

If you learn to read notation there is a ton of music out there for all the instruments.

I find mandolin much easier than guitar, because of all the symmetry. I know what is next to, above, and below anywhere my finger happens to be, because it is always the same. Guitar is not the same across the neck and having to know where you are across the neck is such a pain.

I find violin very hard because of the bowing. It doesn't do anything for you. You have to not only accurately start each note, but you are responsible for extending each note its proper length in time, and you are in charge of when each note stops. The mandolin you pluck it and move on. 

And so on. I don't think you could make a list that most people agree with.

I would say that playing any instrument well, is much much harder than playing at that instrument. So in a way, you could say that the hardest instrument you are going to find is the one you make a commitment to playing well.

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## gtani7

There was  a book in the library that recommended (band and orchestra) instruments for kids who are not especailly disciplined, up to really determined kids.  It said sax, clarinet and flute were easiest and then I don't remember which ones are in the middle but I think it said bassoon and French horn and maybe trumpet and violin were the hardest.  I think anybody that's ever tried bassoon and French horn would agree. I'll have to see if I can locate the book

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## Br1ck

> I don't believe I'm coordinated enough to play a pedal steel guitar.
> 
> (For what it's worth, the jury's still out on my mandolin playing ability, too,)   ♫


There was a time where I could not play guitar. My fingertips would go numb. I had to play something so I bought a pedal steel. I took lessons, practiced like the devil, and amused myself for two years. Another ten or so and maybe I could have played in a band. Hardest instrument I ever tried. But I did learn to use metal fingerpicks and a lot of skills ported over to Dobro. Luckily I could still play bass guitar.

My feeling is what folks consider folk instruments, guitar, banjo, etc., are all easy to play simply and sing with. After all, there was no big structure of learning materials. Skill was passed down by family members. Instruments had to be cheap to buy or easy to build. How the fiddle thrived in these conditions is beyond me. But advancing on any instrument takes time and dedication. Playing tambourine is a skill few people have mastered. Learning a fourth instrument is easier by far than the first.

I can play and sing with my banjo after three weeks. My daughter, a violist, picked up my mandolin and played a prelude to a Bach suite without error. Never laid her hands on one. I just told her it was like a violin.

But that pedal steel takes feet moving separately, knees moving separately both left and right, one hand moving a bar with intonation, and a right hand working ten strings while palm blocking. Hardest by far than anything else. French Horn is a bitch too.

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John Lloyd

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## Gunnar

> While I applaud the effort you put into making sense of the chaos, I do not think your results are universal. 
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that playing any instrument well, is much much harder than playing at that instrument. So in a way, you could say that the hardest instrument you are going to find is the one you make a commitment to playing well.


Nor do I think they are universal, and I think I made that pretty clear in the OP, I just listed my personal experience with a few instruments (at the request of someone else) it is not meant to be a comprehensive guide to all instruments, just something to think about. For the record, I hope to in the future tackle the Concertina, the Accordion, Dobro, Uilleann pipes, GHBP, Bodhran, and more. I currently can play several more than listed also.
I agree totally with that last statement. I sort of covered that in my OP, but not as clearly

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## MikeZito

Over the years I have taken a crack at many instruments:
- Guitar
- Bass
- Keyboards
- Drums
- Hand Percussion
- Trombone
- Banjo
- Pedal Steel Guitar
- Accordion
- Harmonica
- Lap Steel
- Violin
- Dobro
- Recorder
- Ukulele

In my experience I have found that I personally cannot play any instrument that involves breath/blowing (harmonica, recorder, trombone). . . come to find out I have low-lung capacity, and a very narrow throat opening; (one doctor was surprised that I could even breathe, much less play an instrument - but that's another story).

Like DHopkins above, my lack of physical coordination made my short attempt at playing pedal steel a frustrating attempt at getting two hands, knees and feet to work at the same time - however (like the violin) I did 'master' it just enough to play the instrument on one recording - so I was able to wipe that instrument off of my musical bucket list before I sold it.

In the end however, for me personally, I had the hardest time attempting to play the accordion.  Trying to coordinate left-hand bass notes, right hand chords and squeeze the instrument in-and-out all at the same time was just plain impossible for my un-coordinated body and brain.  The accordion that I had was a loaneer from a friend, and I gave it my best shot for the entire day - but in the end it was my biggest musical failure.  (Pete Townshend of The Who one said that he 'learned to play the accordion for this demo of the song 'Squeeze Box' , but he didn't play it properly, he learned it just enough so that he didn't fall over while playing it'.)

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## Simon DS

Yes the diatonic accordion is pretty hard. The worst thing about it is that whereas with a guitar if you forget some part in a song, you can improvise and fake it by ear till the next part, with the diatonic there’s nothing, you just trip over and stop. For me the learning process is long and technical with lots of unintuitive memorisation involved. 
One sure sign is that if I get it out, or even if I just carry the case around the apartment then the cat scowls at me, and slinks over to the front door pleading to go out. Meooooow! -even if it’s raining, which is often why I get the thing out in the first place. Yes, cats know things. Harmonica is another instrument that the cat doesn’t appreciate.

I did try a sort of hunting horn one time, can’t remember the name of it, it had two circles of tubing. 
Anyway that was really easy, just a couple of days, because it naturally resonated on a couple of main notes of 2 keys and the rest was like whistling. It’s actually a great instrument for someone with a dog.
The tone improved after just four days.

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Eric Platt

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## Eric Platt

Yes, diatonic accordion has me stumped. Mainly because I haven't taken the time to practice it enough. 

But watching folks play English concertina makes me think that's more difficult. Maybe not as bad as being a good violin player, but close.

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allenhopkins

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## DavidKOS

"What instrument is the hardest?"

The one you don't practice.

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Eric Platt, 

j. condino, 

Timbofood

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## yankees1

I don't play it but I have always heard that a Harp is the most difficult ! Any Harp players out there ? With not much ability and starting late ( 64) any instrument would be difficult for me ! One quality I do have is determination !

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## Gunnar

> I don't play it but I have always heard that a Harp is the most difficult ! Any Harp players out there ? With not much ability and starting late ( 64) any instrument would be difficult for me ! One quality I do have is determination !


I can play two different types of harp, the blues (mouth) harp, and the auto harp. I do love good harping though, and would love to learn some Celtic harp music 
..

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## Polecat

I would say the Yaybahar. Apart from the fact that they are not commercially available, I can imagine that there are a fair few people one might have difficulty persuading that what one is producing is actually music.

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V70416

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## Greg P. Stone

I've been a drummer my whole life. In the 80's, when I told my friend Mike I had bought a guitar, he asked me to start playing a gig with him once a week because he had just lost his guitar partner. I asked, "shouldn't I learn to play it first?" He replied, "No problem, come by the house and I'll show you what to do." We ran through two Grateful Dead songs and a few days later I was in front of an audience. Playing electric rhythm guitar I quickly discovered I only needed a few bar chords, eventually a dozen or so. Another advantage to electric was that I started with the amp so low that only I could hear it. It took two months before I was using normal volume. The rhythms were brush patterns. In fact as a trio, with his wife on piano, I sometimes brought a drum set and played with brushes and it seemed somewhat interchangeable.

A few years later I was playing guitar with the world class harmonica player Sandy Weltman. Sandy was on bass in this group and when he had to miss a performance he asked me to play bass, "come by my place and I'll show you what to do." Sandy gave me two rules, "start every measure on the root" and "the rhythm is more important than what notes you play" so I limited myself to arpeggios. It worked very well.

All these years later, I can't call myself a guitarist or bassist because, while the access to playing is easy, mastery is hard and elusive.

I call myself a drummer because I can sit down with anyone in almost any genre and make music. 

I hope to call myself a mandolinist one day. Access to playing isn't much harder than a guitar. But the real payoff, possibly due to the residual learning of decades at the outer edges of guitar, is that the intermediate level, wherein I understand the theory and potential of the instrument, has opened up to me readily. I think this is mainly about having seven frets under your fingers on each string, as well as the consistency of fifths.

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Monkeyhat

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## Simon DS

> I would say the Yaybahar. Apart from the fact that they are not commercially available, I can imagine that there are a fair few people one might have difficulty persuading that what one is producing is actually music.


Sounds like someone drumming on a sheet of ice on a lake in winter, or if they happened to have a bow and arrows, they’d put an arrow into the ice and play it with the bow?

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## Caleb

I only play guitar (electric and acoustic) and mandolin, and I find the mandolin absolutely unforgiving in every way.

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## catmandu2

For me, the "hardest" ones are: 

Violin (hdgfl foremost for various reasons - 11.5" SL being one..)

Pedal steel (long learning curve)

Guzheng

Dance music (instrument played in folk or dance idioms) tends to be "easier" than more complicated forms, etc.

For me, (lever/celtic) harp was intuitive because I had technically prepared for it for decades with classical & flamenco guitar.  I also found diatonic accordions "easy" after two weeks to get comfortable with bisonorics (you dont have that problem with unisonoric english or duet concertina for example).

Of course, context is everything; playing anything at a high level is "hard."  Performing Bach may perhaps be no more challenging than your fastest fiddle tune.  Playing Bach on a guzheng or erhu would be quite difficult indeed.  And so on.

For me, Chinese and Arabic music is most challenging.  But of course, it wouldn't be for those raised in Chinese or Arabic cultures.

For some reason, I was never a keyboard person - perhaps having grown up with strings - and it took me 10 years learning as an adult to get comfortable playing professor longhair on piano accordion.

Aside from ergonomic, cultural and stylistic considerations, _the "hardest" instrument is the most expressive one._

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## Mike Scott

Being a no talent hack, there is no easiest one.  The most difficult is what ever I happen to be playing at the time......

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## foldedpath

There are so many different angles to this question. Even if it's limited to just one person's experience, some of the issues are more about the style of music than the instrument itself.

For example, if we're just talking about the mechanics of playing, then the mandolin is much easier for me to play than one of my other instruments, the wooden "Irish" flute. Part of that is all the years I played guitar before discovering mandolin, but the flute is just a very physically demanding instrument. It's more of a whole-body workout than mandolin, combining finger articulation with mouth articulation and breath control. 

Now approach the question from a different question, and ask which instrument is easier for playing Irish traditional dance music? 

For me, there is no question that flute is easier than mandolin for playing this music. It just fits naturally, because the techniques for ornamentation borrow so many elements from the early pipes. It's more of a struggle for me to get a mandolin to sound authentically "Irish." I'm not saying it can't be done, and the mandolin has certain advantages in partial harmonization within the melody line. But it takes more work, and the options for ornamentation and rhythm pulse within the melody are far more limited on mandolin. 

We could take this through one more iteration and ask which of those two instruments is easier for playing Bluegrass? 
 :Smile: 

The answer there is clear (flute ain't no part of nuthin'). So music style matters as much as the instrument, if we're talking about "what's easier."

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Jess L.

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## dhergert

For me, the instrument I enjoy playing the least usually turns out to be the instrument that is hardest to learn.

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## T.D.Nydn

I've heard the Sitar is hard to learn,I would think something like the Basoon isn't to easy either..playing a left handed strung guitar ,right handed is really hard,I've tried it ,,playing bluegrass mandolin hard is very demanding on the right arm and sliding double stops is a whole new level of calous...

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Simon DS

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## Eric Platt

> I don't play it but I have always heard that a Harp is the most difficult ! Any Harp players out there ? With not much ability and starting late ( 64) any instrument would be difficult for me ! One quality I do have is determination !


Yes, it's hard. Tried it for a while, but then lost it. Seems like I left my harp in San Francisco.

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Simon DS, 

Timbofood

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## catmandu2

> I've heard the Sitar is hard to learn...


It is the _form_ (raga) that is challenging (to Westerners; conversely not so much for those fluent in Indian classical music).  So it is with guzheng and TCM: on the surface it is the simplest of instruments - pentatonically arranged strings on a piece of timber - but the (trad form) music consists in microtonal subtleties..

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DavidKOS, 

T.D.Nydn

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## CWRoyds

For me, Sitar and Fiddle. 

Fiddle for the bowing and fretless fingerboard.

Sitar is hard on several levels. 
Sitar is technically difficult to play because you play mostly horizontally across the first string using mostly just your first finger (like slide but without the slide). 
Add to that bending entire passages from one fret that can go up about 7 semi-tones. 
The right hand is very difficult as well. 
Then you have the fact that the music system for sitar is another world completely. 
You can spend years on one Raga, so looking at the list of several hundred ragas can be daunting. 
Definitely worth it though, as the sitar is an unbelievably amazing acoustic machine.

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DavidKOS, 

T.D.Nydn

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## Joel Glassman

The hardest:
Fluba
Singing Ringing Tree
Cross-Grainger Kangaroo-Pouch Tone-Tool
The Great Stalacpipe Organ
Pyrophone Organ
Hyperbass Flute
Hornucopian dronepipe
Aquaggaswack
Sandata ng lolo ni tatay
Xaphoon
Cloud Chamber Bowls
Dynamophone

The easiest:
Wind Chimes

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Christine Robins

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## T.D.Nydn

I always thought the triangle guy had it pretty easy..

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## DaveGinNJ

> I always thought the triangle guy had it pretty easy..


It can take decades to master the subtle nuances of the triangle

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DavidKOS

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## Denny Gies

For me it was the fiddle.  My wife told me either the fiddle or me were going to sleep in the outhouse, it was my choice.  I think the fiddle is still there.

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## V70416

Polecat,at first I didn't much care for the sound of the Yaybahar,but I think he was just tuning up. I was into it by the end of the performance. Thank you for that.

Trying to play a violin made me appreciate the instrument and what it takes to make one really sound good.

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## Gunnar

Well, if you want to get into instruments you haven't played but have only heard of, the Chapman stick is epic and looks very hard

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MikeZito

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## catmandu2

I really enjoy the varieties of experience.  Btw when I wrote things are "easy" and "hard" I just mean in relation. I'm too wore out to be able to play guitar and mndlns etc so I spend all my time on boxes.

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## Simon DS

I can just see my friends reactions when I tell them I m taking Sandata ng lolo ni tatay classes.

I dont think Id ever feel comfortable playing an instrument whose name I cant pronounce.
Youd play a tune, really focused, no mistakes, but knowing for certain that when the tune is over, perfect performance, someone is going to say, whats it called?
And youre going to say, uhhh.

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T.D.Nydn

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## foldedpath

> Well, if you want to get into instruments you haven't played but have only heard of, the Chapman stick is epic and looks very hard


I _almost_ bought a Chapman Stick at one point in my electric guitar phase. I backed off when I realized that it's basically a string version of an electric keyboard without dynamic range, like a Fender Rhodes with a little more sustain. The lack of dynamics starts to sound monotonous to my ears when I hear enough of it.

YMMV, and it's still impressive to see one played by someone who knows what they're doing, like that clip above. But there's a reason it hasn't taken over the world, while there are still plenty of guitars and keyboards being played.

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Gunnar

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## Bill McCall

> .......Chapman Stick...... I backed off when I realized that it's basically a string version of an electric keyboard without dynamic range, like a Fender Rhodes with a little more sustain. The lack of dynamics starts to sound monotonous to my ears when I hear enough of it.......................


Sounds perfect for Cajun music :Popcorn:

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Gunnar

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## DaveGinNJ

> I would say the Yaybahar. Apart from the fact that they are not commercially available, I can imagine that there are a fair few people one might have difficulty persuading that what one is producing is actually music.


Other than producing special effects sounds for horror movies, the role of that things seems awfully limited when it comes to music

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Simon DS

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## Simon DS

...

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## catmandu2

> I don't play it but I have always heard that a Harp is the most difficult ! Any Harp players out there ? With not much ability and starting late ( 64) any instrument would be difficult for me ! One quality I do have is determination !


Fyi, many beginners (writing on the harp forum) are older adults - many are older than you.  Harp seems to be an instrument that many folks aspire to play, but don't undertake until at a later point in life, if at all - when they're finally ready to do something wholly irrational  :Smile:   .  Of course there are the usual barriers, and access is no doubt one.

I was one of these - always had the sound in my head (gaelic airs) but never thought I'd do it, always reasoning that I had too much going on already..  I encourage you (and anyone) to try - you may find it highly intuitive.  Of course more complex music is more difficult, but simple tunes are rather easy, and sound quite nice out of the gate.  And your grandkids will love it.

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## allenhopkins

> But watching folks play English concertina makes me think that's more difficult. Maybe not as bad as being a good violin player, but close.


Tried playing my grandfather's fiddle, didn't get very far -- had a hard time getting consistent bow pressure and speed, missed having frets -- but didn't really make a serious attempt to learn it.

Of the instruments I _do_ play, professionally and in front of audiences, concur that English-system concertina is the most difficult.  After playing it more than 25 years, I can still find myself wandering off the correct buttons and not being able to get back -- not frequently, now, but still happens.  Irrational button layout, no visual cues, and no way to "hide" with that piercing, oboe-esque voice.  Still, I love it, and will take the risk of the occasional melt-down.

Mandolin?  Piece of cake (as long as you don't listen _too_ closely...).

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## Sterling

I’ve got a MOOG Theremin that’s pretty tricky to play. Just waving in thin air with no reference points. Left hand for volume and articulation and right hand for pitch.

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Bob Clark, 

Timbofood

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## mtm

> Other than producing special effects sounds for horror movies, the role of that thing [yaybahar] seems awfully limited when it comes to music


I have s slew of pedals to try to make those psych sounds.  Is there a wrong way to play it?  why do I want one?

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Simon DS

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## Simon DS

> Tried playing my grandfather's fiddle, didn't get very far -- had a hard time getting consistent bow pressure and speed, missed having frets -- but didn't really make a serious attempt to learn it.
> 
> Of the instruments I _do_ play, professionally and in front of audiences, concur that English-system concertina is the most difficult.  After playing it more than 25 years, I can still find myself wandering off the correct buttons and not being able to get back -- not frequently, now, but still happens.  Irrational button layout, no visual cues, and no way to "hide" with that piercing, oboe-esque voice.  Still, I love it, and will take the risk of the occasional melt-down.
> 
> Mandolin?  Piece of cake (as long as you don't listen _too_ closely...).


Mandolin a piece of cake? No way... well, what sort of cake?

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allenhopkins, 

Timbofood

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## foldedpath

> Of the instruments I _do_ play, professionally and in front of audiences, concur that English-system concertina is the most difficult.  After playing it more than 25 years, I can still find myself wandering off the correct buttons and not being able to get back -- not frequently, now, but still happens.  Irrational button layout, no visual cues, and no way to "hide" with that piercing, oboe-esque voice.  Still, I love it, and will take the risk of the occasional melt-down.


The guitar player in a local mixed Scottish/Cape Breton/Irish session can occasionally be coaxed to bring out his concertina. He's very good at it, knows a ton of mostly Irish tunes. He doesn't always hit every note or quasi-chord right, but he hits most of them so the clams don't really matter. The sound is great and it adds so much to the session. 

The clams in a trad session or OldTime jam are how you know you're not listening to a recording, after all. It's "authentic!"
 :Wink:

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allenhopkins, 

Simon DS

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## Timbofood

> Mandolin a piece of cake? No way... well, what sort of cake?


That would be a.....
Wait for it...



A shortcake!

Ok, I’m on the road 2000 miles this week and I miss my own bed so, I’ll stand in my corner when I get home tomorrow!

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Simon DS

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## zedmando

I play guitar, bass & mandolin.

I'm probably best at guitar, then bass & then mandolin-which is also the order of when I started playing each.
But difficulty?
They all have their difficulties.

I think part of it depends on hand size, your body size, the physical instrument, and what you want to do with it.

I know people who play each--and they would give different answers.

----------


## Gunnar

> Fyi, many beginners (writing on the harp forum) are older adults - many are older than you.  Harp seems to be an instrument that many folks aspire to play, but don't undertake until at a later point in life, if at all - when they're finally ready to do something wholly irrational.


Maybe it's cuz they realize they might not have much more time and want to invest it in something that might be useful later?  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

----------

Ranald

----------


## DaveGinNJ

> I have s slew of pedals to try to make those psych sounds.  Is there a wrong way to play it?  why do I want one?


Truth be told, I would love to borrow that contraption for a day and play around with it.  Whether its "music" or not is debatable, but it certainly looks fun to play

----------


## fatt-dad

I think the hardest instrument is the larynx followed by the pucker.  I mean, think of the 10,000 hrs we invested between the ages of  birth and 4 to learn how to operate the larynx.  Not everybody takes the time to learn to whistle; however. . .

f-d

----------

Jim Garber, 

Simon DS, 

Timbofood

----------


## allenhopkins

> Mandolin a piece of cake? No way... well, what sort of cake?


Tiramisu, maybe?  Something Italian, at any rate.

The mandolin, with its equal tuning intervals -- allowing chord patterns to be moved around the fingerboard, and "rationalizing" scale patterns -- compact size, lively voice, and versatility as a chord-_and_-melody instrument, is pretty accessible and friendly, IMHO.  Not saying that it's easy to achieve virtuosity on it, but it never seemed forbidding and frustrating, as some other instruments do -- see my post on the English-system concertina...

----------


## Jim Garber

When I was younger I wanted to play everything. I still own instruments I barely can play any more including button and piano accordion(s), flute, recorders, musical saw, harmonicas, melodica, bowed psaltery and dobro. I even borrowed a nyckelharpa for a few years. As I grow older though I realize the most sensible thing to do is to stick with the ones I can play, mostly those with frets and fiddle and viola. 

It is not that any are so much more difficult. It is really that it would take me lots more time to get pleasure from playing them and the ones I have been playing for decades I still enjoy learning new things about**: trying out new tunes, new genres, new techniques and improving the sounds and rhythms I can produce from what I am used to.

For instance, I just watched this video by these two characters, both excellent classical violinists and the laughs they have trying to play cello. Each of them can play circles around me on violin with their virtuosic technique (they are friends with Hilary Hahn) but when confronted with an instrument requiring different technique, they are like beginners.

----------

bratsche

----------


## Simon DS

With 150 million views, you guys have almost certainly seen this vid.
THAT is how you hold a cello. With a waist strap too.

----------


## catmandu2

> -- see my post on the English-system concertina...


Alright, Ive gotta give EC love here  :Smile:  - yes its layout is different from most instruments we play with its alternating-hand scalar system.  But it's really an elegant and logical design.  It has user-friendly buttons after all.  We were all perhaps more fluid of tool adaptation and even-handed at some early point (right, concertina-playing cave people!).  They have their own logic and advantages.

I guess I'm kind of a free reed charlatan - we did this on the last comparative instrument thread.  I haven't played mine in 4 or so years (I play accrdns instead) ..  But EC are also accessible! (and the grandkids love them  :Smile:   )


And BTW, thank you! ...for inspiring me to get one out and play. https://youtu.be/H3xvLN8nP2s

----------

allenhopkins, 

Simon DS

----------


## Jim Garber

> Alright, Ive gotta give EC love here  - yes its layout is different from most instruments we play with its alternating-hand scalar system.  But it's really an elegant and logical design.  It has user-friendly buttons after all.  We were all perhaps more fluid of tool adaptation and even-handed at some early point (right, concertina-playing cave people!).  They have their own logic and advantages.
> 
> I guess I'm kind of a free reed charlatan - we did this on the last comparative instrument thread.  I haven't played mine in 4 or so years (I play accrdns instead) ..  But EC are also accessible! (and the grandkids love them   )
> 
> And BTW, thank you! ...for inspiring me to get one out and play.


Hah! When you said EC I thought you meant Eric Clapton and I thought the video of him trying to play a concertina.  :Smile: 

Alternate hand scalar arrangement is used for modernized kalimba (thumb piano) and (I believe) kora.

----------


## catmandu2

Right.  I think of these things (concertina) as simply just idiophones of a nature - just striking the buttons is not appreciably different than a 'mbira tang or harp string or...

Like, my point above is just to show that merely drumming the fingers in rhythmic fashion - after actually more like 5 or 6 years abstinence - renders some musical efficacy (and that Caughtenman's Rambles or Saddle the Pony or whatever the tune is - is easier on the EC than AC  :Smile:   )

----------


## Jim Garber

As with everything else, it is what you get used to. One friend of mine excels on the Anglo Concertina. Gets great rhythms for playing for dances.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## catmandu2

> As with everything else, it is what you get used to. One friend of mine excels on the Anglo Concertina. Gets great rhythms for playing for dances.



Well, yes, I played anglo mostly - generally prefer it for ITM - as is customary.  But playing the tunes on EC provides yet a different lilt.  Playing these tunes on AC or DBA (dia button accrdn) requires a bit of bellows work  :Wink:  ... That's one big reason I like EC - I'm lazy - I dont have to work the bellows...i got into boxes in the first place to avoid the work of fiddle playing for dances.  Squeezing is just so easy...    :Smile:   )

----------

Jess L.

----------


## Jim Garber

I played around on DBA for accompanying singing in OT and a little norteño polkas. In my old mandolin orchestra they used the concertinas to play the wind parts. We did Handel's Water Music one year with a full quartet of EC's two violin-tuned ones, a viola- and a cello-tuned EC. I guess they had whole orchestras of these playing classical repertoire.

----------


## catmandu2

I play out on accordions once a week.  Upon seeing the box, it never fails that someone yells out, "polka!"  Now, this would have bothered me some years ago, for I grew up loathing the words polka and accrdn...not really the words, but the very idea and image of it.  For I was into zeppelin, not Welk..

Well, now I play chamame and cumbia and other cool things that Latinos have done with the polka rhythm and accrdns.  Not to mention some straight up quebecois or std "North American' style polka - folks actually enjoy hearing this stuff  :Smile:  

*Oh, btw - it's generally held that bandoneon is the "hardest" of the free reeds.

----------


## catmandu2

And I dont mean to bag on Lawrence W and N American stuff.   Sorry if it sounded that way.  But it's surprising how often people ask for it.  People often mention old Myron et al..  that's part of music too.  I just havent gotten into much of that  oom-pa or light classical or whatever kind of stuff.

----------


## Jess L.

> What instrument is the hardest?


For me, one of the hardest beasts I've ever tried to tame was the Uilleann pipes, as far as trying to achieve (and maintain!)  :Crying:  a good *setup* so the darned things play right. *Seven reeds* (comprising both double and single reeds) in a full set of pipes. It's hard to know, for beginners especially, if funky sound is because of defective technique or out-of-adjustment/defective equipment. It's in the player's best interest to have some knowledge of the basics of how the instrument is supposed to function:    

Chanter reed problems.Drone reed problems.Regulator reed problems.

Worth the effort though, when everything's working right.  :Mandosmiley:  There are some good and inspiring players these days. Some random YouTube links - here's Louise Mulcahy on Uilleann pipes, *skip ahead to 0:43* for hauntingly wonderful dance music:



_(or direct link)_


Below, Uilleann pipes played by Pamela Schweblin (Argentina), with fiddle played by Carolina Arango (Colombia).



_(or direct link)_

----------


## Gunnar

So are the Uilleann pipes harder than the Great Highland Bagpipes?

----------


## John Lloyd

I used to think fiddle was hardest, and it would have been harder if I hadn't already been playing mandolin for 20-odd years. Then I tried flute. Ow. My lips just won't bend that way, and my lung capacity isn't what it used to be either. As far as wind instruments are concerned I'll stick with clarinet, which was also the first real instrument of any kind that I studied.

Guitar is deceptive. Learning enough open-position chords to strum along with casual vocals is dead easy. Mastering the guitar, as either a solo instrument or the backbone of a rhythm section, is a lot harder and takes a lot longer.

Piano and organ are comparatively easy. Name a note; there's one way to make it happen.

On a drum kit I can bang out the simplest rhythms imaginable, but attempting anything really interesting will tie me in knots. Cheap jokes aside, I have a lot of respect for good drummers and in my experience they're the hardest member of a band to find. Really good bass players are almost as rare. When you do find them they usually have two or more steady gigs already.

Pedal steel looks terrifying. I'd love to try it, but most of my real effort right now is going into the mandolin and violin families. I'm trying to work alto fiddle into the mix anywhere I can get away with it.

----------


## Miltown

My experience, for the little it's worth:

I started on mandolin about four years ago, and then picked up an acoustic guitar, an electric bass, and, most recently, a fiddle. 

The mandolin was hardest, but only because...wait for it...it was my first instrument! I remember first trying to tune it, and trying to use an electric tuner, and assuming the tuner clipped onto the fretboard somewhere over the strings. Yeah, that didn't work so well. (I also quickly discovered YouTube lessons after that, and realized there's no excuse for wallowing in ignorance these days.)

Also, counting, and keeping the beat--something that my brain wasn't used to, and that I had to devote a fair amount of time drilling into it--took some real discipline.

When I picked up the guitar, I already had some of the basics of a fretted instrument down, and so things moved pretty quickly, though getting the barre chords under  my fingers did take a while.

Electric bass was easiest, at least to play in a very basic way. I watched a couple of YouTube videos, and afterwards I could play some simple accompaniments to folk-type songs (all that counting and metronome-work with the mandolin paid off).

And fiddle? I just recently got my fiddle, and yeah, it's going to be a project, but I was also surprised by how much I could do with it right out of the gate...thanks entirely to mandolin. I can play very mediocre versions of most fiddle tunes I can play on the mandolin, and while my bowing is poor, my left hand and intonation are actually fairly decent...decent enough to encourage me to continue with it. I'm going to seek out some lessons to address bow issues, but overall I've been surprised with my fiddle chops.

In other words, no step is harder than the first. I didn't start playing an instrument until middle age, for all sorts of reasons, but certainly one of them was self-doubt. I only wish I had started earlier.

And if anyone has been contemplating getting a fiddle, I say take the plunge!

----------

Bob Clark, 

Gunnar, 

John Lloyd

----------


## catmandu2

> So are the Uilleann pipes harder than the Great Highland Bagpipes?


The form of trad music played on each is quite different. The diddley music of ITM is generally more complex than the Scots piping tradition.

----------


## Gunnar

> The form of trad music played on each is quite different. The diddley music of ITM is generally more complex than the Scots piping tradition.


That makes sense. I really want to learn both, but there's a few other (cheaper) instruments in line before them

----------


## foldedpath

> So are the Uilleann pipes harder than the Great Highland Bagpipes?


The Uilleann pipes are a little more complex with the partial harmony regulators in a full set, and a technique of stopping the note. But both types of pipes involve a huge range of ornamentation that has to be mastered. The Scottish repertoire can be difficult because it involves so many of those blasted 4 and 5 piece tunes with theme and variations, difficult to memorize (for me anyway, playing it on mandolin and flute). 

In my non-piper opinion (although I have piper friends who I play with), both the Scottish and Uilleann pipes require similar amounts of dedication and effort. I don't think it's something you just pick up as a side instrument. All the good pipers I know in my area have either played them all their lives, or picked it up somewhat later as a sole instrument focus. You don't see many multi-instrument pipers, unless it's something like flute or low whistle that has some similarities in fingering.

----------


## catmandu2

Ya the pibroch style ("theme and variations") is called an _ornamental_ style - as opposed to the _melodic_ style of most of our folk forms.  It's unknown which came first - the pipes or (wire) harp; they share much the same ornamental style, repertoire, etc in the Scots tradition.

I was too old for the pipes, so it was the clarsach for me.  I really enjoy the ornamental style of playing. 

Here's piper Brendan Ring:

----------


## allenhopkins

Let me state clearly that I _love_ the English-system concertina.  If I didn't, I would have discarded mine long ago (I have two trebles and a baritone), and stuck to the stringed instruments I mostly play.

However, the alternate side/alternate finger layout of the buttons is unusual, whether "logical" or not, and I sadly miss the visual cues.  Not that I stare fixedly at the stringed-instrument fingerboard when playing lead or rhythm, but the opportunity does exist to check whether I'm at the 8th or 9th fret.  With concertina, you can be one button off (and they're very close together), laterally or longitudinally, and you've got an obvious "clam."

So. I take the Morse treble to many a sing-around or Celtic jam, and persistently add it to the mix when suitable.  But -- to me, anyway -- still the hardest instrument I've "mastered" over my 50+ years of playing.

----------


## Aldwyn

> So are the Uilleann pipes harder than the Great Highland Bagpipes?


Absolutely.    Two octaves over one.  You have to keep constant pressure on the bag, and that pressure varies depending on what octave you are playing!  You also have to pump the billows with your opposite arm, and that pumping is based on air in the bag, not the beat of the tune, so your pumping is 99% of the time off beat!  Further, a full set will not just have drones, but regulators, as well, causing you to pump even more, AND be playing notes on them with the side of your fingering arm, all while fingering the chanter, pumping the billows, and maintaining pressure with the other arm!  Oy!





> For me, one of the hardest beasts I've ever tried to tame was the Uilleann pipes, as far as trying to achieve (and maintain!)  a good *setup* so the darned things play right. *Seven reeds* (comprising both double and single reeds) in a full set of pipes. It's hard to know, for beginners especially, if funky sound is because of defective technique or out-of-adjustment/defective equipment. It's in the player's best interest to have some knowledge of the basics of how the instrument is supposed to function:



Completely agree on the pipes... I took lessons and tried for 2 years, and finally gave up.  I never got past a half set, either...  I still have my pipes (made by Kirk Lynch), and still play them from time to time, but my repertoire has srunk to just a couple of songs, so I tend to simply noodle.

I found irish whistle difficult, as well.  I just think I am a string player, and anything else is more difficult for me.

Guitar and ukulele were pretty easy (though been playing guitar for 46 years, so, dont remember what it was like to first learn!).  Banjo I gave up on pretty quick.  Upright bass has been a challenge, but enjoying it quite a bit (just started playing in Jan)!  And picking up on Mando pretty quick as well...

But the Uilliann pipes?  Fer-get-about-it!

----------

Jess L.

----------


## catmandu2

But for an aspirer - one _can_ start off with a chanter without drones and regulators; don't need to start off with a full set, but build up incrementally.  Some pros make little use of regulators anyway..

----------


## NursingDaBlues

I truly enjoyed this video of Mike Katz playing the Scottish smallpipes with Mike Whellans on harmonica. 




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui5h_ip_Un8

I was initially tempted to get some smallpipes after seeing this video, but I came to my senses rather quickly.  I think I'll just stick with stringed instruments.

----------

Gunnar, 

Jess L., 

Simon DS

----------


## Simon DS

Here’s another one that comes with safety instructions. 

‘Hold on to the table or something heavy... your feet WILL dance away without warning!’



This is why sometimes, in a pub, you’ll hear someone look over, nod sideways, and say, ‘careful now, he plays the concertina!’

----------


## foldedpath

Just my $0,02 opinion here, but that TALISK clip above sounds like phenomenal technique on concertina in search of a good melody to use it on. Very impressive, I just wasn't moved by the melody. 

Here's a clip I could dance to (if I could dance). And there is a discussion worth having here about how some instruments are easier to play fast than others, not just easier to play at all. How many mandolin players could keep up with either of these two clips, the one above or the one below?

----------

Jess L., 

Simon DS

----------


## Gunnar

> I truly enjoyed this video of Mike Katz playing the Scottish smallpipes with Mike Whellans on harmonica. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui5h_ip_Un8
> 
> I was initially tempted to get some smallpipes after seeing this video, but I came to my senses rather quickly.  I think I'll just stick with stringed instruments.


That was awesome! I love well played harmonica

----------


## Gunnar

All y'all's talk about how hard Uilleann pipes are is making me want to learn them even more! I've not yet met an instrument that I couldn't play after a few months of committed practice

----------


## catmandu2

> ... some instruments are easier to play fast than others...


For sure.  Boxes/concertinas are basically limited by how fast you can twiddle your fingers.  Similarly woodwinds..  fiddle is aided by the bow...hammered dulcimer by sticks...

Yesterday I was asked for a cheerful song - somewhere in the midst of my melancholic French tunes.  I fired up some jigs at increasingly fast tempos which brought delight.  Which I want to mention about bisonoric boxes: they're very effective rhythm machines and easy to impart syncopation which makes people dance (whether bodily or simply emotionally).  In addition to dynamics, polyphony and the rest, it has many attributes in a small, handy kit.  People really enjoy hearing them.  ...Just extolling their virtues - why I feel they're so accessible and "easy" - push the button, make a nice sound.  Try em!

----------

Simon DS

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> Forget the instruments; Tuvan throat singing seems pretty difficult to me.


Funny you should mention that. One of the foremost experts on Tuvan throat singing is named Michael Edgerton. He isn't me but we have common friends.

http://www.uvm.edu/~outreach/ThroatSingingArticle.pdf

----------

Bob Clark, 

Timbofood

----------


## foldedpath

> All y'all's talk about how hard Uilleann pipes are is making me want to learn them even more! I've not yet met an instrument that I couldn't play after a few months of committed practice


Go for it! You can make it more affordable by starting with a chanter, then adding drones later, and finally the regulators. 

As for the time needed... well, you can probably play scales on the chanter and get comfortable with the elbow motion on the bag fairly soon. What takes years of effort is learning to play the pipes "idiomatically" with the full range of ornaments and expression, so it sounds like you're playing authentic Irish music and not just fooling around on a very specialized instrument. 

Do you currently play any Irish traditional music on mandolin or anything else? If not, you could start with a cheap high D whistle to get familiar with the different dance rhythms, and get at least a taste of ornamentation with cuts, taps, and rolls. 

The Online Academy of Irish Music has some free introductory lessons you might want to check out. There's a 7 day free trial before monthly fees, and there is usually one or two free videos for each instrument to get an idea of what the instructor is like. Here's the free introductory one on Uilleann pipes, a preview of the third set of lessons where the instructor talks about ornamentation:

https://www.oaim.ie/uilleann-pipes/u...pes-technique/

----------

Gunnar

----------


## Aldwyn

> All y'all's talk about how hard Uilleann pipes are is making me want to learn them even more! I've not yet met an instrument that I couldn't play after a few months of committed practice


Go for it!  While they kicked my butt, and I stopped taking lessons after 2 years, its still fun, and unique to play.

My piping teacher told me that it takes 21 years to be a piper:  7 years of learning, 7 of practicing, 7 years of mastering, and then you can call yourself a piper!  :D  So get started soon!

----------

Gunnar

----------


## catmandu2

Also, if it's challenge you want, there are plenty of things to do with instruments you already have.  One of the greatest challenges / hardest instruments for me was flamenco guitar.    




FTR, you can hear this person's six-beat rasqueado isn't very good yet - I use a different technique employing thumb for 6-beat that is quite smooth.  This can all be done with a $60 Yamaha nylon guitar..

Likewise with hdg fdl... idioms are so distinct that styles often are like completely different instruments.  Playing arco bass, or jazz drums is really distinct from folk/rock et al.  Pick up a clarinet or violin - enough to keep you busy if you explore idioms around the world..

----------

Simon DS

----------


## Gunnar

> Go for it! You can make it more affordable by starting with a chanter, then adding drones later, and finally the regulators. 
> 
> As for the time needed... well, you can probably play scales on the chanter and get comfortable with the elbow motion on the bag fairly soon. What takes years of effort is learning to play the pipes "idiomatically" with the full range of ornaments and expression, so it sounds like you're playing authentic Irish music and not just fooling around on a very specialized instrument. 
> 
> Do you currently play any Irish traditional music on mandolin or anything else? If not, you could start with a cheap high D whistle to get familiar with the different dance rhythms, and get at least a taste of ornamentation with cuts, taps, and rolls. 
> 
> The Online Academy of Irish Music has some free introductory lessons you might want to check out. There's a 7 day free trial before monthly fees, and there is usually one or two free videos for each instrument to get an idea of what the instructor is like. Here's the free introductory one on Uilleann pipes, a preview of the third set of lessons where the instructor talks about ornamentation:
> 
> https://www.oaim.ie/uilleann-pipes/u...pes-technique/


Are you aware of a decent pipe builder who can ship reliably to Africa? I have done a basic internet study of the pipes, and I know basically the path most folks take, but I don't have money, nor any way to generate, replicate, confiscate, or earn any. I also am interested in buying/learning dobro and Irish (Anglo) concertina first. But I'll try to get to the pipes asap, I'm currently two months behind schedule to pick up a new instrument

----------


## catmandu2

> ... but I don't have money, nor any way to generate, replicate, confiscate, or earn any.


Busking?

Traditionally, building was how one would enter playing the pipes or clarsach.  I was about ready to do this myself until I finally found one on ebay that I could afford..

----------

Gunnar

----------


## foldedpath

> Are you aware of a decent pipe builder who can ship reliably to Africa? I have done a basic internet study of the pipes, and I know basically the path most folks take, but I don't have money, nor any way to generate, replicate, confiscate, or earn any.


The place to ask about that is in the Chiff & Fipple forum, in the sub-section on Uilleann Pipes. They'll be able to help you find a source. Also, be sure to read the sticky post in that sub-forum about inexpensive Pakistani-made pipes (pro and con, but mostly con).

----------


## JeffD

> I used to think fiddle was hardest, and it would have been harder if I hadn't already been playing mandolin for 20-odd years..


I found just the opposite. I think I would have found the fiddle much easier if I hadn't been playing mandolin and been in the folk music community for all those years. The reason is I developed a good appreciation for what the fiddle can do, and what a good fiddle should sound like. Before I started learning it. My "experience" really undermined my confidence and patience with how pathetic I sounded. 

Had I started with the fiddle first, with an ear as yet under developed and less discerning, I would have gleefully gone about sounding awful as I climbed the first few rungs of that ladder.

----------

Gunnar, 

John Lloyd

----------


## Gunnar

> Busking?
> 
> Traditionally, building was how one would enter playing the pipes or clarsach.  I was about ready to do this myself until I finally found one on ebay that I could afford..


Busking is unprofitable as I live in a village where few people have jobs and no one has extra money, and even if they did they wouldn't be giving it to a white kid, they know we have more money and don't need theirs. 
Building would be an interesting option. I might just have to investigate that

----------


## Gunnar

> The place to ask about that is in the Chiff & Fipple forum, in the sub-section on Uilleann Pipes. They'll be able to help you find a source. Also, be sure to read the sticky post in that sub-forum about inexpensive Pakistani-made pipes (pro and con, but mostly con).


I have browsed a few forum pages at chiff and fipple, including the one you mentioned, and I definitely will not be buying a Pakistani set. Most likely I'll have to wait a couple years till I move back to the states (if I do in fact move back there and not elsewhere) and they save up and get some

----------


## Gunnar

> Are you aware of a decent pipe builder who can ship reliably to Africa? I have done a basic internet study of the pipes, and I know basically the path most folks take, but I don't have money, nor any way to generate, replicate, confiscate, or earn any. I also am interested in buying/learning dobro and Irish (Anglo) concertina first. But I'll try to get to the pipes asap, I'm currently two months behind schedule to pick up a new instrument


Oh, I forgot to mention, yes, I play Irish (and Scottish) traditional music on mandolin and fiddle, and sometimes harmonica, guitar and even five string banjo

----------


## SincereCorgi

> I found just the opposite. I think I would have found the fiddle much easier if I hadn't been playing mandolin and been in the folk music community for all those years. The reason is I developed a good appreciation for what the fiddle can do, and what a good fiddle should sound like. Before I started learning it. My "experience" really undermined my confidence and patience with how pathetic I sounded.


Totally agree, sadly. If  you've been around decent violin players for years it _really_ highlights how lousy you sound starting out. And, of course, it's ungodly loud so you can't exactly scrape away quietly until you get better. Violin's the hardest thing I've ever played by a mile.

----------


## Bob Clark

> Funny you should mention that. One of the foremost experts on Tuvan throat singing is named Michael Edgerton. He isn't me but we have common friends.
> 
> http://www.uvm.edu/~outreach/ThroatSingingArticle.pdf


Thanks Mike, that's pretty funny.  I am used to being confused with others, including a criminal at one point (and the Police took some convincing. . .) because of my common name.  In this case, you ended up sharing your name with someone interesting.

I just gave the article a look, and it will take some time to read through it in detail.  I'll save it for after the harvest season here on the farm.  It is the best explanation for that phenomenon I have seen.  I really enjoy this music and thanks to the Internet, it's now readily available.  One of the more accessible groups is Altai from Mongolia.  The 1999 documentary _Genghis Blues_, about an American competing in a Tuvan throat singing competition is a bit odd, but worth a look.

Boy, have I traveled off the mandolin topic! :Grin:  Still, it's all music and that is good.

----------


## foldedpath

> Oh, I forgot to mention, yes, I play Irish (and Scottish) traditional music on mandolin and fiddle, and sometimes harmonica, guitar and even five string banjo


Ah, okay so you're already playing within the genre, good. One alternative to pipes you might consider while saving up for a set, is "Irish" flute. It gets you into a similar range of expression with a sustained tone and ornaments, very different from mandolin but a nice complement. 

It's the path I took a few years ago, starting on Irish flute as a way to get a little deeper into Irish trad, while still playing mandolin for what it does well like partial harmony within the melody line. 

You can get a very good Delrin conical bore flute for $300-$400, or a wooden Casey Burns Folk Flute for $450. Might be a good stepping stone to pipes later on.

----------

Gunnar

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> Thanks Mike, that's pretty funny.  I am used to being confused with others, including a criminal at one point (and the Police took some convincing. . .) because of my common name.  In this case, you ended up sharing your name with someone interesting.


Actually there are two others that share my name that I'm not real happy about. Make that three. There's a former police officer from North Jersey that lives in the next county that has a huge child support bill that always comes up whenever I need a credit check.

I'm surprised Michael Edgerton isn't mentioned in that documentary.

----------

DHopkins

----------


## Gunnar

> Ah, okay so you're already playing within the genre, good. One alternative to pipes you might consider while saving up for a set, is "Irish" flute. It gets you into a similar range of expression with a sustained tone and ornaments, very different from mandolin but a nice complement. 
> 
> It's the path I took a few years ago, starting on Irish flute as a way to get a little deeper into Irish trad, while still playing mandolin for what it does well like partial harmony within the melody line. 
> 
> You can get a very good Delrin conical bore flute for $300-$400, or a wooden Casey Burns Folk Flute for $450. Might be a good stepping stone to pipes later on.


Is a classical flute played the same as an Irish one? My mom has a silver classical flute, but I don't know if Irish flutes have keys?

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## catmandu2

> Busking is unprofitable as I live in a village where few people have jobs and no one has extra money, and even if they did they wouldn't be giving it to a white kid, they know we have more money and don't need theirs. 
> Building would be an interesting option. I might just have to investigate that


Yes, unfortunately I live in a rural community as well - therefore I don't try to make $ from playing.

….

Re metal/Boehm vs wood flute:  there are differences in bore, mouthpiece, etc., but by and large the playing and fingering is much the same, so if you start on Boehm flute it's easy to transition to wood; the fundamental techniques of embouchure, tone production, etc are essentially the same.  However a keyed metal flute _feels_ much different from a wood flute; you can use "piper's grip" on a wood flute - which is further preparation for eventually moving to the pipes.  Recorder is also a nice entrée.

Some wood flutes utilize keywork - such as on the metal flute - to enable playing "accidentals"/chromaticity.

One nice thing about learning metal/Boehm flute is the common fingering among woodwinds - essentially the same fingering for sax, some double reeds, and to a lesser extent clarinets.

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## foldedpath

> Is a classical flute played the same as an Irish one? My mom has a silver classical flute, but I don't know if Irish flutes have keys?


Classical ("silver") flutes in the Boehm design are played almost the same, I think there is one fingering difference. 

The technique with an "Irish" flute (i.e. a 19th Century conical bore design) is different, because your fingers rest on open tone holes like a pipe chanter or whistle, which allows distinctive ornamentation, and the conical bore tone facilitates a "hard" or dirty sound, especially on the low D note. 

The modern silver/Boehm flutes used in Classical music are designed for a very pure, sweet tone. There are a few people who play Irish trad on silver/Boehm flute like Joanie Madden, but the vast majority of trad players use the 19th Century conical bore design, either in synthetic materials like Delrin or wood. It's just easier to get that distinctive "Irish" sound with that flute design. And they can be had fairly inexpensively if you don't need keys. 

There are keyed "Irish" flutes but they tend to be expensive, much more so than the silver/Boehm flutes that are sold in the thousands as mass-produced band and orchestra flutes, with big name manufacturers like Yamaha. Irish flutes, especially keyed models, are hand-crafted items.

My first "Irish" flute was a keyless wooden model and I played it for two years when I was just starting out. Last year I replaced it with a keyed flute, so I could have access to a few tunes with notes that are either difficult to play at speed with half-holing like G# and Fnat, or impossible to play even with half-holing like Eb. But there aren't many tunes in the Irish and Scottish repertoire with those notes. You can play probably 95% of the trad tunes on an Irish flute without keys. I just happen to love a few of the odd ones, so it was worth investing in a keyed flute once I could make a halfway decent sound on a keyless one. YMMV, plenty of Irish fluters never play anything but a keyless flute.

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## Gunnar

Ok, I asked cuz my mom has a (very nice and expensive) silver flute, but I couldn't even hold it up last time I tried to play it. I would rather play a wooden one (I have a bamboo piccolo tuned the same as an Irish whistle in C) but I don't have one. Was just wondering should I try to learn on my mom's flute, or wait and play Irish whistle meanwhile?

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## foldedpath

> Ok, I asked cuz my mom has a (very nice and expensive) silver flute, but I couldn't even hold it up last time I tried to play it. I would rather play a wooden one (I have a bamboo piccolo tuned the same as an Irish whistle in C) but I don't have one. Was just wondering should I try to learn on my mom's flute, or wait and play Irish whistle meanwhile?


If your goal is to end up playing a wooden (or Delrin) "Irish" flute, then I'd suggest starting on your Mom's silver flute instead of whistle. 

You won't have to make many adjustments if you get an Irish flute later on. A big part of the early learning curve on any type of flute is embouchure development; training all those small muscles around your mouth to make the correct shapes, which are actually different for each note pitch. That can take years, and in fact you never stop working on embouchure. It's completely different from playing a whistle. Whistle will give you a jump start on fingering, ornaments, and breathing, but not what to do with your mouth.

A silver/Boehm with keys is also fully chromatic, which means you could easily shift into playing Jazz, Blues, Rock, Classical, or other styles and not just Irish trad. The "Irish" flute is also chromatic when it has keys, but it tends to be used more narrowly for Irish, Scottish, Breton, and related styles. Something to think about.

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DavidKOS

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## Gunnar

Ok, I'll see about starting learning that, is the fingerings similar enough to use the OAIM flute course? I also play harmonica, Trumpet and bamboo piccolo, so I'm familiar with the difficulty/training of embouchure

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## foldedpath

> Ok, I'll see about starting learning that, is the fingerings similar enough to use the OAIM flute course? I also play harmonica, Trumpet and bamboo piccolo, so I'm familiar with the difficulty/training of embouchure


I can't remember exactly how the fingering differs (I once had a Gemeinhardt silver flute a long, long time ago and it didn't "stick"). Look online for fingering charts and that well tell you. There are Irish flute fingering charts on Terry McGee's web site, as well as a ton of useful information on the history and mechanics of Irish flute on that web site.

A practical example: Last night we hosted a regional band GallowGlass for a house concert in our home. They spent the night, and I had a chance to talk to the singer, who is just starting on Irish flute. She had previously played Classical flute, and is now using a Casey Burns "Folk Flute" in the band, just slowly getting into it. We traded some tips after breakfast, and she didn't seem to be having any problems with the fingering transition from Classical/silver flute to a wooden Irish flute. She was mainly looking for info on how to start with ornaments, so we spent some time on that.

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DavidKOS, 

Gunnar

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## catmandu2

Wood flute is in D.  The F natural (first finger, right hand) on a metal flute (keyed in C) is an F# on a wood flute.

I grew up playing Boehm flute (but only casually as my primary was sax), and when I went to wood flute 35 years later it was "easy":  without keys the playing is very fast, ornaments seem "natural."  Of course it's also challenging in that you must be precise in technique - covering the holes with fingers...you don't have that challenge with keys as they do that work of covering the holes.

Caveat - I suppose being a clarinet player helped me as I was accustomed to open hole woodwinds..

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DavidKOS, 

Gunnar

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## majorbanjo

The first instrument you learn to play is the hardest....

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DavidKOS

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## foldedpath

> The first instrument you learn to play is the hardest....


Probably true if your first instrument is learned later in life. If your first instrument was learned as a child, it may not seem that hard. I started piano lessons at age 6 and don't remember it being that difficult, I just hated being forced to take lessons when I would rather be outside playing. Kids don't have the same degree of self-criticism and comparison with others that you build up as an adult. So you don't know you suck at first. 
 :Wink: 

At least that was true in the past. These days, with everyone comparing themselves to their peers on social media even from a fairly young age, it may be different.

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## mandocrucian

Mel Bay's _The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle_ by Gray Larson



This is *the book* to get for Irish flute ornamentation etc.  There have been several different editions,( with CDs, or online audio). $30-40. Some of the exercises are on the OCD side, but that's really no different than anally-retentive classical flute technical exercises, imo.  But you can easily get the gist of what/how to do, and to what degree of _"authenticity"_ you want to achieve is up to you.  

Personally I don't care about adhering to some particular regional style for _"purity's sake". _ I'm playing a "C"metal flute - cause I like that sound (but I would prefer an alto flute), and do not want limitations as to what keys I play in.  Plus, I like players like James Moody, Yusef Lateef, Johnny Almond, Chris Wood, Jeremy Steig, Ian Anderson, and not just Irish, Nordic or Asturian/Gallician players. (And I prefer sax doublers to (jazz) flutists who are dedicated flute players who came up through classical training.  I really don't want to hear classical vibrato, articulation and that aesthetic in anything other than the genre in which it was developed (classical).  I prefer to hear a flute being played like a sax.)  I tend to play the sounds in my head, depending on what player has imprinted the tune on my brain. If my my ear likes Swarbrick on fiddle, or Martin Carthy on acoustic guitat, John Kirkpatrick (accordion), Santana/Hendrix (elec guitar) etc. etc.  that's more-or-less how it's going to come out.  (on any instrument, mando or flute ….or whatever) 

My suggestion for those contemplating buying a wooden simple system flute.....get yourself a low-D whistle (first) for $45- 125. It should give you an idea of whether you like open holes or the finger stretches etc.  Besides, listen to someone like *Brian Finnegan* ( Flook, Kan) who's a monster player and can wring more than you ever think is possible out of the instrument.   Personally, I think he slurs/articulates more like a fiddler of sax player which is why I find his playing so much expressive than hardcore ITM flutists.

At the outset, getting a decent sound out of a flute is probably harder than getting something bearable on a fiddle, imo.  But when you can get a bit better, it's probably as close as you can get to _"singing on an instrument."_

Niles H

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> Mel Bay's [I][B]
> 
> My suggestion for those contemplating buying a wooden simple system flute.....get yourself a low-D whistle (first) for $45- 125. It should give you an idea of whether you like open holes or the finger stretches etc.


 That works really well for some folks....but the embouchure is the difference. A basic keyless  "Irish" flute would work better for many Boehm flute player. Additionally, the finger stretches for low d whistles are often harder than simple system keyless flutes.

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## dan in va

Pedal steel guitar gets my vote.  The theory alone is mind boggling with tunings that are constantly changing with combinations of pedals and knee levers...10 string necks in E9 and C6, and few pro's set up their guitars alike.  Along with the picks, damping, the bar, and volume pedal i'm reminded of a drummer using all 4 limbs together.  It's pretty amazing to google up the copendent charts to see what the changes are.  My favorites are Weldon Myrick and Paul Franklin when teamed up with Brent Mason's telecaster, Pig Rollins' piano, Hank Singer's fiddle, Robbie Flint's acoustic slide, and Roy Husky Jr's bass on the early Alan Jackson CD's.

And check out a little baroque/classical number Paul made up.  Can be found on YouTube "Baritone Pedal Steel"

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## mandroid

I'd Say ... the Steel Drum,... If all you have is an old empty steel barrel..

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## Timbofood

> I'd Say ... the Steel Drum,... If all you have is an old empty steel barrel..


The hard thing is the tuning, but, if you have time...

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## Simon DS

Heres a guy whos just done a little hike from his town onto this hill. 
Hes doing singing and playing a big fiddle with only two strings.

Is this easier than playing the concertina? I think so.


https://youtu.be/p_5yt5IX38I

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NursingDaBlues

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## Jack Roberts

I torture myself, my dogs, and my family with violin, and although I can make notes that are almost in tune, I wouldn't represent myself as being able to play, even after 10 years.  But the most impossible instrument to play I have found so far is the theremin.  I built one, worked at it for a year, and finally gave up and gave it away.

The easiest and one of the most enjoyable instruments I have found is the mountain dulcimer.  What a great instrument!  I built one to replace the theremin, and it is beautiful to listen to, look at, and play.

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## Jess L.

> The easiest and one of the most enjoyable instruments I have found is the mountain dulcimer.  What a great instrument!  I built one to replace the theremin, and it is beautiful to listen to, look at, and play.


Yep dulcimer can sound very nice.  :Mandosmiley:  And that's cool that you built one!  :Mandosmiley:

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## Jim Garber

> Oh, I forgot to mention, yes, I play Irish (and Scottish) traditional music on mandolin and fiddle, and sometimes harmonica, guitar and even five string banjo


Gunnar: even more interesting to me... do you play Mozambique music? Are you from there? If not, how did you end up there and what are you doing there?

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## Jim Garber

> Here’s a guy who’s just done a little hike from his town onto this hill. 
> He’s doing singing and playing a big fiddle with only two strings.
> 
> Is this easier than playing the concertina? I think so.
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/p_5yt5IX38I


I don't know. I think that the instrument is deceptively difficult though it sounds simple and the throat singing is not at all easy to master. Try it sometime.

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Simon DS

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## Simon DS

Sorry Jim, I wasn’t clear about. I was joking, I meant I love this music, and I think the guy’s the equivalent, but not better than Bill Monroe.
Am also wondering how he can sing up there without oxygen! 
What a man!  :Smile: 

But seriously, I think you’re right,  I should try it some time.

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## Gunnar

> Gunnar: even more interesting to me... do you play Mozambique music? Are you from there? If not, how did you end up there and what are you doing there?


No, I don't play Mozambique music, cuz it's mostly Brazilian radio, and not very stylistically interesting to me (too much like pop and rap). I'm not originally from here, I was born in Texas, to Texan parents, but we moved to Cape town south Africa when I was six months old. We've been here in Mozambique about thirteen years now. My parents are missionaries, which is how they ended up here, and my siblings (all seven of them) and I are here cuz that's where our parents are. It's honestly a fair sight better IMHO, than growing up in the states, for various reasons

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## Jim Garber

> Sorry Jim, I wasn’t clear about. I was joking, I meant I love this music, and I think the guy’s the equivalent, but not better than Bill Monroe.
> Am also wondering how he can sing up there without oxygen! 
> What a man! 
> 
> But seriously, I think you’re right,  I should try it some time.


No need to apologize. I get it and I love the video. As you might tell by my post to Gunnar, I love world musics.

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Simon DS

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## Bob Clark

> I get it and I love the video.


Amen to that, Jim.  This musician is amazing.  I was surprised to see him using a Western-style bow, but have seen it before in this style of music from time to time.

I'd love to be able to do throat singing but absolutely lack the skill to pull it off (hence post #7 on this thread).  

As I sat here listening to that video, I had a kitten on my lap.  She perked up and purred loudly as this man began to sing.  I suppose it reminded her of purring.  Even a kitten finds something to love in this music.  That's how I strive to be; finding something to love in the music of all cultures.  Music really can bring us all together.  I believe that in my heart of hearts.

If only we all had the time and inclination to make it happen. . .one can hope.

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## Phil Goodson

This thread is starting to look like a Seinfeld show. :Wink:

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## NursingDaBlues

> Here’s a guy who’s just done a little hike from his town onto this hill. 
> He’s doing singing and playing a big fiddle with only two strings.
> 
> Is this easier than playing the concertina? I think so.
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/p_5yt5IX38I


Wow! I really enjoyed that!

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## Polecat

> Wow! I really enjoyed that!


This may appeal, too

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Simon DS

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## Jack Roberts

[QUOTE=atsunrise;1739076]Here’s a guy who’s just done a little hike from his town onto this hill. 
He’s doing singing and playing a big fiddle with only two strings.

Is this easier than playing the concertina? I think so.[ /QUOTE]

I saw a performance hosted by Bela Fleck one Christmas, and the act had these throat singers in it.  They did Jingle Bells.

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## catmandu2

Here's a word on one of the "easiest" instruments to learn - happens to reinforce my own opinion, in many respects: https://youtu.be/qbrjgvYO5dI

* I scrolled through the comments a bit, and many of them are from folks starting in their 50s, 60s, 70s..

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