# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  Speed on fiddle tunes-- Buddy MacMaster

## Bernie Daniel

Along the lines of the recent thread about playing speed...

I have been slowly picking up some of the tune sets off Buddy MacMaster's classic project "Judique on the floor".  This was project was apparently created during Buddy's mid-age years -- in cover picture he looks to be early '50's or so.

What prompts this note is my attempts this week to play a fairly simple 4-part reel called "Lasses of Stewarton".  With slowdown software I learned the tune.  It is the final tune in a D-major set on the CD.

The problem is that no matter what I do I cannot get to more than 90% of Buddy's tempo on the CD - in fact I really cannot get to an "honest" 90%.  

I have to dial back to 85% if I actually want to get through it consistently and then its by my finger nails -- 75 - 80% of his speed is truely MY speed.

I do not by any means claim to be a good mandolin player --but I have never felt I lacked in finger speed -- even at 65 I can move my fingers very quickly but this is impossible.  I do think in this case my right hand is the sticking point -- cannot go back and forth fast enough.

Just wondering if anyone else happens to have tried this tune on the mandolin -- I have "fiddled" a little with the fiddle and I know it takes less pressure to note a string -- is this perhaps just a case of a mechanically superior insturment when it comes to very fast playing?  But I wonder if this most likely is that he can maintain a consant one direction motion on the bow and let his left hand fly?

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## Rob Gerety

I think it might be because he is a super human musician. I saw him play a couple of years ago in Mabou up in Cape Breton.  I think he was in his 80s at the time.  Stunningly good even now and I cannot imagine how solid he must have been in his prime.

Might have to throw a few hammer ons and pull offs in the mix to give that right hand a break, eh?

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## Steve L

A fiddle can play a lot faster...especially in the hands of a magnificent player.  I also think if you've just learned the tune, you don't really know yet what your maximum speed is.  You might be able to play it faster in time. But I would worry less about the 15-20% speed and try to get as much of the bounce and feel of his playing into yours.  There are lots of players who aren't incredibly fast who play with a wonderful feel.  Try to be one of those while you work on your tempo.  I don't mean to hit a sore spot, but at 65 (I'm 54), speed might not be the best focus of your playing.

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## woodwizard

I think it takes pressure but at the same time a light touch to play fast. In my experience a new tune will seem to always take a little time to finally get up to what one would call a up to speed pace or performance tempo. Starting slow, memorize, playing clean, working on getting the best tone and gradually speeding up a little by little. Some tunes just click and some just take longer.
But you'll get there in time. ...practice practice ... thats the fun part.

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## Bernie Daniel

> SteveL: There are lots of players who aren't incredibly fast who play with a wonderful feel. Try to be one of those while you work on your tempo. I don't mean to hit a sore spot, but at 65 (I'm 54), speed might not be the best focus of your playing.


I see where you got that impression -- my issue was not that I actually wanted to play that fast -- in fact I doubt a dancer would want it that fast either.  Rather my point was I did not see how it was *possible* to do cleanly.  

I was just interested to see if others encountered this.  Do you play the fiddle?

As to age?  I can still run 10 miles reasonably close to the same time as when I was 40 (although I have to admit not so painlessly!!) so I don't think I'm too worried about that --just yet  :Laughing:   But I take it one day at a time -- you never know.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Rob Gerety: I think it might be because he is a super human musician. I saw him play a couple of years ago in Mabou up in Cape Breton. I think he was in his 80s at the time. Stunningly good even now and I cannot imagine how solid he must have been in his prime.


Bob I saw him at the Red Shoe also!!  This was about 3 years ago and also at few other places in CB.  And yes he is very good even now - - nealy 90 or so? 

BTW I just found this quote about him that bears to your point: "Buddy MacMaster of Judique, Nova Scotia, surely must rank alongside of Neil Gow as one of the greatest Scottish fiddlers to have lived" -- K.E. Dunlay, historian

And he is not even Scottish!!!  :Laughing:

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## Bertram Henze

Watch those fiddlers like a hawk when they speed away - look at their right hand: they don't make a move per note, so why should a mandolinist try that? Trying to play exactly like a different instrument is bound to fail. These tunes are supposed to be a framework for every instrument to build it's own version on. Simplification is the key to give the right hand a rest, like Rob said. The result should be that you and the fiddler would not play exactly the same notes, but that it would sound good together.

Bertram

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## 8ch(pl)

Buddy Mac Master will be 85 sometime in the fall.  I worked as a security guard 5 years ago at the Halifax airport.  I remember his niece Natalie coming on a CB Radio program and giving a nice tribute to him, when he turned 80.  I was at work then, so that's how I can pinpoint the date. I only worked at this job for 8 months.

A local fiddler (Dartmouth area, although Cape Breton born), was known to describe Mr MacMaster as "An adequate dance fiddler."  It just shows what envy can spawn. The other fiddler (who passed away a year or so ago) was well known and extremely proficient in his own right.

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## Rob Gerety

Actually, we saw Buddy at a community hall across the street.  But we did spend a few wonderful evenings at the Red Shoe.  Here is a shot of Buddy at the Community Hall, Andrea Beaton at the Red Shoe, and a shot of a wonderful elderly man sitting in his standard seat at the Shoe.  Also a shot of the Red Shoe from the outside.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Rob Gerety: Andrea Beaton at the Red Shoe, and a shot of a wonderful elderly man sitting in his standard seat at the Shoe. Also a shot of the Red Shoe from the outside.


The Beaton's are great too!  Of course Buddy is Andrea's uncle and her dad Kinnon is just awesome as well so she sure has the good genes eh?  You got a nice shot of Joey Beaton on piano there as well.  He is a fine man and his wife Karen duo's with Buddy a lot -- she's a wonderful fiddler.

You must have been sitting at the same table we were at!  

We came an hour early just to get the best seat possible -- the locals kind of laughed and said its just Buddy afterall -- just Buddy imagine!  My dad was with us and he is about the same age as Buddy -- they hit it off great.

But the beer was good and the food was great we had no trouble filling the time!  Lovely little part of the universe there.

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## Bernie Daniel

> 8ch(pl): A local fiddler (Dartmouth area, although Cape Breton born), was known to describe Mr MacMaster as "An adequate dance fiddler."


Yeah I'd have to agree he sure is an adequate dance fiddler  :Laughing: 

I think last year Buddy and Ali Bain were given Scotland's royal medal for their advancement of folk music tradition -- must have been quite a dance indeed.

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## Rob Gerety

Well, its your thread so I guess I'm not taking over or anything - 

Which one is Joey, the middle aged guy playing with Buddy, the young man playing with Andrea - or the older man facing the camera?

I believe we were there in 07.  We spent 3 evenings at the Red Shoe.  Camped at the National Park. Toured and took a few hikes during the day.  Gorgeous scenery up in the north along the coast.

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## Coffeecup

However well practiced a player is, and how experienced on the instrument, I don't think that everybody is physically capable of moving at the same speed.  That's my excuse anyway.
We seem to get hooked on the quest for speed but see if you can find some Martin Hayes to listen to then decide how fast you need to be.

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## JeffD

In my experience the fiddle can be played faster, if we are considering a single note melody like a fiddle tune, and especially in first position. The water is certainly muddied by the relative talent of the players and other factors, but the same player playing the same tune in the same way, I think can go faster on a fiddle.

What that translates to is that all things being equal, it is harder for a mandolin to compete with a fiddle for speed. 

But there are so many variables. Playing double stops and harmonies, or playing way up the neck, its harder to compare.

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## Bernie Daniel

> JeffD: What that translates to is that all things being equal, it is harder for a mandolin to compete with a fiddle for speed.


Thanks for the comments and the analysis -- I think that you have stated the entire issue well and it is more or less the same general conclusion I came up with too.

Also, Bertram Henze add similar sentiments and note that all insturments have their own "forte". And that trying to directly match the sounds from two different mechanical set ups may not pay useful dividends.

Things like being able to include three and four string chords with are near impossible on the fiddle are some things that can be done on the mandolin of course.

Rob Gerety's point about MacMaster as a super human musician is part of it and of course -- others like coffeecup and you mentioned that as well -- individual differences in the human factors.   Incidently Rob, Joey Beaton is the piano play for Buddy in your photo -- no idea who the older man is.

Anyway, I thank all for the "hand holding" that I seemed to need that day.

I feel much better about the song right now as woodwizard point out practice helps and since writing the origianl note I've played the song a few hundred more times (probably really that many) and I can now fly through it at 90% of MacMaster's pace and could probably play along with him eventually   :Smile: 

Albeit with less than all of his wonderful style!!!!!!  :Frown: 

Thanks to all who took the time to comment.

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## whistler

I've been playing mandolin about 15 years, since my very early 20s, and have resigned myself to (and am quite comfortable with) being a 'slow player'. I can keep up in most sessions I go to, but I wouldn't fancy listening back to myself playing in a fast session, if all the other instruments could somehow be removed from the mix.  I much prefer to give myself the time to play all the notes cleanly and put in some ornamentation and variation.  I am often amazed, when learning tunes from recordings, how fast some people play, even though it may not _sound_ particularly fast.  Of course, a few players (e.g. Buddy McMaster - and Martin Hayes) can do all those things I mention (and far, far better than me) even at what, to my fingers, feels like an absurdly fast tempo.  But I think a lot of people who habitually play fast actually leave out a lot of the tune - if not actual notes, then clarity and 'involvement' with the tune.

No doubt, with practice and perhaps a bit of guidance from a good teacher, I could play faster.  Perhaps it's arrogance or laziness or both, but I like playing at a 'shteady' pace - and I know enough other players who are similarly inclined that I don't feel any particular need to speed up.

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## whistler

> all things being equal, it is harder for a mandolin to compete with a fiddle for speed.


Maybe so.  But you only have to listen to some bluegrass (if I may use that word on this forum  :Disbelief: ) players to realize that  speed is no object given the requisite practice/technique/aptitude/ whatever it takes.

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## JeffD

> Maybe so.  But you only have to listen to some bluegrass (if I may use that word on this forum ) players to realize that  speed is no object given the requisite practice/technique/aptitude/ whatever it takes.


Oh I quite agree. 

What I would say is that a fiddle player, if the leash is removed, will be able to play those tunes faster.


Now there are exceptions - and I find things like fast rhythms over double stops etc., things mandolinney, the mandolin can do faster than anyone. But the fiddle would do something fiddley at that point, and if the mandolin was to try and emulate what is essentially a fiddley riff, he would not be able to do it as fast.

It is a gross oversimplification but you know what I mean.

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## foldedpath

> Oh I quite agree. 
> 
> What I would say is that a fiddle player, if the leash is removed, will be able to play those tunes faster.
> 
> 
> Now there are exceptions - and I find things like fast rhythms over double stops etc., things mandolinney, the mandolin can do faster than anyone. But the fiddle would do something fiddley at that point, and if the mandolin was to try and emulate what is essentially a fiddley riff, he would not be able to do it as fast.
> 
> It is a gross oversimplification but you know what I mean.


I agree. The way I think of it, is that fiddle players have _more ways to articulate notes_ at any speed compared to a mandolin player, due to the sustain and varied bow/finger techniques. When a mandolin player goes really fast, it starts sounding like a typewriter to me (does anyone remember typewriters?). 

For example, compare these two video clips of a fast fiddler and a fast mandolinist. Look at all the different ways Perlman has to play fast, compared to Apollon's very impressive but (to me, anyway) "typewriter" approach. And by the way, I know there are modern players like Thile who can play a blazingly fast run with articulation and sensitivity, but that's pretty rare. 

Itzhak Perlman plays Bazzini:


Dave Apollon and Victor Borge:

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## Rob Gerety

That stuff gives me a headache.

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## Bernie Daniel

> whistler: Maybe so. But you only have to listen to some bluegrass (if I may use that word on this forum ) players to realize that speed is no object given the requisite practice/technique/aptitude/ whatever it takes.


Point well made.

No doubt some BG players are very fleet of finger -- but don't think for a minute that the best players of celtic music are not just as fast. 

In fact,  I don't know if you happen to have access to it or not but if you do I would be interested in your comments on the particular cut in question from MacMaster's CD -- "Lasses of Stewarton".  

If you just listen to it -- it seems "reasonable" but once you try to follow along with your pick you find yourself several notes behind almost at once -- its crazy.

Now I do not at all claim to be a good or even fair mandolin player but I can move my fingers and hands very quickly -- I can generally keep up with recordings of fast BG tunes -- if I know them.   For example I  can play along with most recordings of say "Amanda Jewel" or "Banjo Signal" or "Talahassee" but this reel that MacMaster is playing is insanely fast.

I think he is just better that me that's all -- no news there.

foldedpath:  What an incredible set of videos -- amazing and uplifting!!!

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## Bertram Henze

> That stuff gives me a headache.


Ouch, me too.
There are people out there who use this sort of permanent tremolo to play Irish tunes (I meet one regularly at sessions), but they are not doing anyone a favor.
There are no hummingbirds in Ireland.

Bertram

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## Bernie Daniel

> There are people out there who use this sort of permanent tremolo to play Irish tunes (I meet one regularly at sessions), but they are not doing anyone a favorThere are no hummingbirds in Ireland.


You are no doubt correct -- but I do not think that playing sessions is very high on Itzhak Perlman's list of musical concerns!   Anyway his hands and Dave Apollon's are pretty awesome -- IMO  :Smile: 

But I agree with you staggering technical overkill aside, the Pearlman piece is not very endearing and I could get along without hearing it again -- not much of a melody -- I loved Apollon's piece though.

I pity Ireland for not having the wonderful little hummingbirds but they do have the european bumblebee _Bombus terrestris_  there don't they?  the pieces seems a better imitation of those wingbeats -- you think?   :Laughing:

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## Bertram Henze

> ...they do have the european bumblebee _Bombus terrestris_  there don't they?  the pieces seems a better imitation of those wingbeats -- you think?


Definitely yes.  :Smile:

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## mandocrucian

> _The way I think of it, is that fiddle players have more ways to_ articulate_ notes at any speed compared to a mandolin player, due to the sustain and varied bow/finger techniques. When a mandolin player goes really fast, it starts sounding like a typewriter to me (does anyone remember typewriters?)._


*Exactly.*  But it goes even further with more options for tone, intonation, ornamentation etc.  All the things that make violin so difficult in the beginning are the same things which allow  it do _so much more_ later on.  While you *can* play mandolin with slurred  (fiddle bowing) phrasing using hammers/pulls/slides/pick glides, and you can tweak your intonation (and vibrato) with bending, it's never going to give you as much as doing it on a fiddle or a wind instrument. (Electric mandolin will give you more in these areas, and in fact, it becomes almost a necessity to start using these techniques, because there is nothing in the world worse sounding than a "typewriter" than an *"amplified typewriter"*, except, perhaps a nailgun - (apt description for the high E string on an e-mando)).

You have to work much harder (and harder), to get these sonic things out of a mandolin than you do a fiddle (or an electic guitar), and still, not getting as much as a fiddle will get comparitively. You are now paying the price for having it much easier (on mando) at the beginning, because those aspects of the instrument are now becoming limitations.

The only area where the mando retains a clear advantage (over fiddle) is with chordal playing.  However, due to the high register, mando chording will almost always be inferior to what guitars can do. If you want an sonic ecosystem where carniverous mandos are the top predators, you need to remove the guitars and fiddles so the mandos can evolve into 300 pound sabre toothed raccoons.  :Laughing: 

And there is the issue of sonic natural selection. The sonic attractions of  fiddle (or guitar) mean that there are plenty of beginner players who will go straight for the fiddle. And then there will be defections by existing mando players (before they get too old for "new tricks") desiring the sonic options more inherent and apparent in the fiddle. 

Personally it's hard for me to understand why someone like Mike Marshall, who _can_ play fiddle decently (or he did back in his Florida days) would not choose that as his primary instrument.  (Does Thile play fiddle at all?)   Same for Ricky Skaggs.

NH

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## Bernie Daniel

> madocrucian: Personally it's hard for me to understand why someone like Mike Marshall, who can play fiddle decently (or he did back in his Florida days) would not choose that as his primary instrument. (Does Thile play fiddle at all?) Same for Ricky Skaggs.


Actually, there are other players I know who play both and yet seem to prefer the mandolin over the fiddle -- you mentioned Skaggs and Marshall - then there is Sam Bush, Skip Gorman, Rhonda Vincent, Jesse McReynolds -- there are others but I'm blocking out on them....of course I only know what the mostly play so what they truely prefer is a guess.




> The only area where the mando retains a clear advantage (over fiddle) is with chordal playing. However, due to the high register, mando chording will almost always be inferior to what guitars can do.


I think this more a function of what you want the chords to do.  If you want them to back up your singing I'd sure say guitar -- but it you want them to substitute for the drum you don't have - how can you top mandolin chop chords?

I could say that your arguement really is more or less pitting the mandolin against both the fiddle and the guitar as a COMBINED insturment -- i.e., the mandolin trumps the fiddle in chording -- so then why say but the guitar is better here?  That statement has no bearing on the fiddle mando comparo does it?  :Smile:

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## JeffD

> I could say that your arguement really is more or less pitting the mandolin against both the fiddle and the guitar as a COMBINED insturment -- i.e., the mandolin trumps the fiddle in chording -- so then why say but the guitar is better here?  That statement has no bearing on the fiddle mando comparo does it?


There is no better or worse in general. Ever instrument has those things it does best, and playing, learning, or carrying advantages. 

And every instrument has things that are better done on another instrument.

Nothing does it all.

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## Bernie Daniel

> JeffD: And every instrument has things that are better done on another instrument.


That is certainly true.  But I will say the mandocrucian does have a very good case that the fiddle is a very versatile insturment -- maybe it covers a large range of uses than the mandolin.   

I've heard it said that Monroe himself had on occasion expressed the opinion that the fiddle was "the king of insturments."   This is probably a result of his youthful ventures with Uncle Pen.  

From my limited experience I would agree with the point ventured by several already that for a given individual it is probably true that you can make speed easier on a fiddle than on a mando.  

But as it was also pointed out speed -- as in note for note -- is not a valid measure because as you point out every insturment has its own inherent advantages.

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## Jill McAuley

> Y
> 
> I pity Ireland for not having the wonderful little hummingbirds but they do have the european bumblebee _Bombus terrestris_  there don't they?  the pieces seems a better imitation of those wingbeats -- you think?


There does be hummingbirds all around my farmhouse back home. Don't know if they're native to our wee island or not or just passing thru but they are most certainly there...

Bit more on topic - I have never been one for crazy speed meself - can completely appreciate the skill involved but it's just not my cup of tea. Just got the new CD by "Pride of New York", who's members are: Brian Conway (fiddle), Joanie Madden (flute and whistle) Brendan Dolan (piano), and Billy Comiskey (button box) and I really like it, tunes played at a good steady pace, rather than "breaking landspeed record" pace. Have heard a few tunes from flute player Mike Rafferty's new CD, "The New Broom" as well and the tunes there are played in a similar fashion so it's definitely going to be by next purchase.

Cheers,
Jill

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## JeffD

> Bit more on topic - I have never been one for crazy speed meself - can completely appreciate the skill involved but it's just not my cup of tea.



Jill that is a good point. The OP was originally talking about speed, but speed by itself is a silly criteria. So much else goes in to good musical playing, and the abiliy to play fast is often obtained at the expense of the other aspects of good playing.


I don't care for a lot of pyrotechnics in playing - and I don't care for tunes that are mostly to impress others. (I like to play with others much more than to play for others.)

So for example, a tune like Sally in the Garden, Wild Rose of the Mountain, or a great old waltz like Archibald McDonald Of Keppoch, at a reasonable speed, or even a little slower is much more to my taste than hearing Brilliancy, or Blackberry Blossom at full tilt.

I don't want to hear how well someone can play, I want to hear a beautiful tune played well. The tune should transcend the player, and the dexterity requred to play the tune should be invisible.

Some tunes are by their nature fast tunes, and should be played fast. But no faster than necessary.

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## mandocrucian

> _but if you want them to substitute for the drum you don't have - how can you top mandolin chop chords?_


Hire a drummer or percussionist!  Or just buy the bass player a high-hat to get the backbeat. (NGR always sounded best, imo, on their albums when they used a drummer)




> _I could say that your arguement really is more or less pitting the mandolin against both the fiddle and the guitar as a COMBINED insturment -- i.e., the mandolin trumps the fiddle in chording -- so then why say but the guitar is better here? That statement has no bearing on the fiddle mando comparo does it?_


My point is, that in most areas, the fiddle is a whole lot more expressive. In the particular area where it has an advantage over fiddle, that advantage is minimalized by the probable presence of a guitar which can render the mando fairly redundant as a chordal rhythm instrument within the ensemble.  On my scales, the overall capabilites of what can be done with the fiddle (when you are dealing with higher playing levels) far outweighs the chordal deficiences.  (However, if you can play rock/blues/funk rhythm mando, you could also make a lot of that same stuff work on fiddle, and it may well come across with even more punch.)




> _Actually, there are other players I know who play both and yet seem to prefer the mandolin over the fiddle -- you mentioned Skaggs and Marshall - then there is Sam Bush, Skip Gorman, Rhonda Vincent, Jesse McReynolds -- there are others but I'm blocking out on them....of course I only know what the mostly play so what they truely prefer is a guess._


There is the business/monetary aspect, what instrument the public identifies the player with, etc.,  Bush may get a lot more call for "mandolin" than fiddle, and the public may also prefer to hear him on that.  Stuart Duncan is probably as good a mandolin player (take a listen to Larry Sparks' *Lonesome Guitar*) as any of them, but he gets the "fiddle jobs."  When playing is your "job", one usually prefers to go with what brings in more $$$.

Many of my favorite mandolin players are really doublers, with mando as a secondary instrument: Swarbrick (fiddle), Thompson (guitars), Albert Lee (guitars), Dave Pegg (bass), Ian Anderson (flute), Martin Carthy (guitar), Ry Cooder (guitars), David Lindley (guitars and more).

At a beginner level - a student is going to sound better sooner on a mandolin than on a fiddle. Their notes are in tune (frets), the strings don't squawk (pickstrokes vs. bow). They'll play tunes sooner (that sound OK) because the fiddler is still learning to control the bow and find the precise finger placements for intonation.  The learning curve is fairly flat for fiddle at the outset because it is just a lot more complicated.  At some point, the fiddler will start catching up, and past that, will sonically overtake the mando player because of the very elements that made it hard in the beginning.  At the playing levels where_ "how the notes are connected"_ and _"how the notes are intonated"_ become as important as _"what pitches do I play"_ - the mando is at an increasing disadvantage. At these levels you have to work twice as hard as a fiddle, to pull the same amount of expressiveness (if you can even reach the "same amount"). (Analogy: watercolor painting vs. "paint by number" kit) And you need to increasiingly control the sonic context in which you play, so that what you do play is not absorbed/swallowed up sonically, or rendered redundant by other "standard ensemble instrumentation."  Good luck selling some unorthodox instrument lineup!

I've been pushing the boundaries (of mando) for a long time, and I have concluded that it just isn't worth the effort anymore. 

Anyway, if you get good enough that you begin bumping into the sonic glass ceiling of the mando, you're viewpoint my evolve.  But until you do, the matter will probably be purely hypothetical and irrelevant.  But, do a survey of Joe Sixpack or Ian Q. Public to find what instrument(s) grab their non-playing ears the most; I doubt if they'll respond with mando as top choice.

NH

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## JeffD

> At a beginner level - a student is going to sound better sooner on a mandolin than on a fiddle. Their notes are in tune (frets), the strings don't squawk (pickstrokes vs. bow). They'll play tunes sooner (that sound OK) because the fiddler is still learning to control the bow and find the precise finger placements for intonation.  The learning curve is fairly flat for fiddle at the outset because it is just a lot more complicated.  At some point, the fiddler will start catching up, and past that, will sonically overtake the mando player because of the very elements that made it hard in the beginning.  At the playing levels where_ "how the notes are connected"_ and _"how the notes are intonated"_ become as important as _"what pitches do I play"_ - the mando is at an increasing disadvantage. At these levels you have to work twice as hard as a fiddle, to pull the same amount of expressiveness (if you can even reach the "same amount"). 
> 
> 
> .... you begin bumping into the sonic glass ceiling of the mando,...




Good stuff here. Really good. 

I am taking fiddle lessons and it kills me how difficult I find it to play a simple tune well. There is just way more to pay attention to. 

Just one example - on the violin you are responsible not only for the start of the note but also how the note ends. This is really someting hard to get used to for a plectrum player. On the mandolin I pluck, I move on. The mandolin does the rest. On the violin, I start the note, continue the note, stop the note, and then go on to the next note. And I have to be mindful of my technique in each of those three phases. The violin helps me not at all.

I haven't bumped into any sonic glass ceilings in my own playing, but I can see the truth here. 

And what does a violin do when it bumps into the violin sonic ceiling - well thats where the chamber music repertory, and orchestral music comes in. 

As much as I like mandolin orchestras and quartets, it is broth and soup to the stew of a regular orchestra.

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## Rob Gerety

I love violin.  I love mandolin.  Violin is a more rich in many ways it is true.  But a violin is not a mandolin.  I can totally understand way an expert at mandolin would continue with mandolin as his/her number one instrument.  Maybe he just likes the sound of a mandolin better in the grand scheme of things.

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## Bernie Daniel

> mandocrucian: I've been pushing the boundaries (of mando) for a long time, and I have concluded that it just isn't worth the effort anymore.


Wow. This was such a friendly discussion too........

That is a pretty amazing viewpoint really.  How do you know that?  For sure its pretty implausible.  Rather it seems intuitively obvious to even a casual observer of the scene that a mandolin will continue to respond linearly to a more input long after ANY human limit is exceeded.  

As to adding a drummer?  Some kinds of musical genre do not have drums so the mandolin fills in -- better than a guitar or fiddle -- basses were not part of the conversation.

Whether you decide to play the fiddle or the mandolin is your call.  And the rest of us will make a similar decision for ourselves.  No big deal.  

As to some mythical poll of the musical universe as to what insturment they prefer?  What is that all about?  That is was never part of the discussion and would be pretty useless anyway.  

I don't know why you made up the "contraversy" of what instrument is "BETTER" -- I believe you are the only one worried about that point several stated frankly that was not the case.  

The discussion WAS which could you play faster -- see title of the thread for reference.

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## mandocrucian

> On the violin, I start the note, continue the note, stop the note, and then go on to the next note. And I have to be mindful of my technique in each of those three phases. 
> 
> And what does a violin do when it bumps into the violin sonic ceiling.


If one is a classical player, in which case they might actually hit the ceiling (unlikely) within their genre, they can move on to various non-classical fiddle - Hungarian folk, Indian ragas, Irish, Old-time, jazz and learn techniques for different artistic aesthetics.

But fiddle...even on one note, you can swell the note and increase the volume, or let the volume fall off, make it bell-clear, or let be raspy. Pitchwise, unless it is an open string, it can be microtonally shaded either up or down.  Or if you slide into the note, it can be 1/8 tone, quarter tone, or whatever you want, and the speed of the slide can be slow, fast, or if can accelerate. And then several notes.....are they on separate bow strokes (how legato or staccato?), are are some notes slurred together? and if they are, what is the bow doing with the volume/tone/texture in the meantime?  Endless combinations of subtleties.

On mando, I can microtonally shade the pitch of notes, but only above the fret. I'll bend strings. I've even come up, in my experimenttions, with a way. to control the volume of the note after the pickstroke. But I have to work really hard to do thinkgs which are, in comparison, relatively straightforward on a fiddle/viola.  To play mandolin well is not easy, but in comparison to a bowed instrument, it is a violin with training wheels.  

When you (Jeff) get a better handle on the mechanics of the fiddle (both with the bow and the mainpulation/shading of intonation), and the old-time tunes start to moan, where are you going direct you energies?  Provided you stick with the bow to a certain point, you'll probably pass the point of no return as to what the obvious choice for the big sonic payoff is.  The trouble is, it takes time - and if you don't have the patience and want instant progress, .....well, the mando is waiting for you to give up.




> _I don't know why you made up the "contraversy" of what instrument is "BETTER" -- I believe you are the only one worried about that point several stated frankly that was not the case. 
> 
> The discussion WAS which could you play faster -- see title of the thread for reference_.


It's called _"thread drift"_ Bernie, and I didn't start the drift away from the issue of only "speed." 

"Better" is a values issue. Better could mean ...fast progress on an instrument?  The harder an instrument is to control initially, the more it can produce in the hands of someone who has managed to get a high level of control.  Only Pecos Bill could ride Pecos Bill's horse, but when he did, it outperformed every other horse in Texas.

A bowed instrument is inherently (in the hands of a good player) capable of a lot more expressiveness than a mandolin is.  

There are things that I prefer to hear myself playing on either viola, or flute (both with a fraction of the technique I have on mandos) than on the mando playing with 35 years accumulated experience.  Because I think it sounds better and even with my limited technique on those instruments, I can pull more out of the tune. So why should I continue to spend time and effort for some miniscule advance of subtlety on a mandolin, which will be ignored, or drowned out, when I can put that time to (imo) much "better" use for a sonic payoff?



NH

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## Rob Gerety

I agree - you don't have anything left to say with a mandolin.  You have said all that can be said.   Time to start saying things with other instruments.

I doubt I will ever reach that point, but I can totally understand your feelings.

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## Bernie Daniel

Very good.  Thanks for the clarification.   Yes, I suppose you are right and the topic did drift.  As well maybe I did my part to help that along.  As to your general point -- I really don't take issue with it -- never have.

You don't have to convience me that there is more flexibility i.e., such things as expressiveness -- however difficult to define -- in the fiddle.  That was never a question in my mind.   

Anyway thanks for the detailed insights they were interesting comparisons for sure.

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## Bertram Henze

> [B]The only area where the mando retains a clear advantage (over fiddle) is with chordal playing.  However, due to the high register, mando chording will almost always be inferior to what guitars can do. If you want an sonic ecosystem where carniverous mandos are the top predators, you need to remove the guitars and fiddles so the mandos can evolve into 300 pound sabre toothed raccoons.


These are called Octave Mandolins.  :Grin: 

Bertram

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## Bernie Daniel

> These are called Octave Mandolins.


        And mandocellos...giant mandolins which once roamed the earth.  :Smile:

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## Jim Nollman

If fiddle tunes are your game, you just can't sound right without a fiddle. Fiddle and mandolin may not be precisely as different as apples and oranges, but they are emphatically not interchangeable in terms of musical function.

I play in a traditional band: contra dances, occasional concerts, festivals etc. Last week, our fiddler took off for 6 weeks. The gigs remain. I can play all of the 50 or so melodies just fine, and at the speed of our fiddler. Since I have to play each one of these melodies for several verses, the concertina player has had to alter his style to a more straightforward rhythm with slightly more bass than usual. When he takes a turn playing melody, I can get back to what I like to do best on mandolin, which is a syncopated vamping of double-stop "chord" melodies. Actually, without the fiddler, my vamping seems to gather much more interest from our audiences. The piano/banjo player still holds down the "one", but she also plays more obvious rhythm too, now that i am so caught up in the melodies. Everyone agrees, that we are handling the challenge of no fiddle, just fine. 

But the tunes don't quite sound right. Actually, they remind me more of traditional jazz, (not the same as dixieland) which is OK I suppose. But as i say, it is not that we haven't acclimated creatively  to the altered instrumentation. It's that the fiddler handles a specific melodic task of a "fiddle tune" set list, that a mandolin simply is not equipped to handle over an entire evening. I notice myself constantly trying to add gingerbread (hammering and slurring, compulsory tremolo on every half note, etc) just to keep that obligatory melodic hop, so related both to the legato and the decay of a bowed note, and which every good fiddler handles so effortlessly. 

I not only can't wait until the fiddler returns, but my bandmate is now looking for a backup fiddler just in case this happens again.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Jim Nolan:If fiddle tunes are your game, you just can't sound right without a fiddle.


I understand where you are coming from Jim, but who defines what is a "fiddle tune"?

I think the description is often applied to all reels, hornpipe, strathspeys and shottisches just on general principle.  For example, on the bluegrass side Bill Monroe wrote almost all of his tunes on the mandolin (i.e., he composed them on his mando) yet there are many who want to declare all of his tunes as "fiddle tunes" -- who says?  

There was a string on the MC here a while back in which one member "argued to the death"  :Smile:   that even "Kentucky Mandolin" (by Monroe) was a "fiddle tune"  :Laughing: 

But I take your point too -- if you are *expecting* a tune to be played on the fiddle and want that fiddle sound, then you are not likely to be happy with any other insturment taking over.  

That said I have heard some celtic fiddle tunes that are clearly fiddle tunes done on an electric guitar that sounded very very good!  :Smile:

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## Jim Nollman

Actually, Bernie I mostly agree with you. In fact I have recently started a recording project. A group of us are now choosing "fiddle tunes", based on modality and harmonic structure. We will be slowing them down quite a bit from the usual dance speed, and then deconstructing them, hopefully in some innovative and nice sounding way. If the concept sounds a bit too much like Tone Poems, or Bill Frissell's recent work, or Chris Thile's explorations, it will, no doubt, include a bit of all of this. But not as traditional in sound as the Grisman, nor as electronic and guitar-focused as the Frissell. And hopefully,  with very little of the obligatory overdrive of the Thile stuff.  I plan to record our song choices on any number of instruments, including some unorthodox choices, maybe even a cappella, and even some ambient sampled sounds. I am a big fan of a cappella versions of Smells Like Teen Spirit, Wild Horses,  etc. I do smile on the idea of an a cappella version of some standard mixolydian tune, like Sandy Boys. 

Sure, we'll use a fiddle on some of it, but I do choose to get away from that "old timey" SOUND, and instead create an unpredictable showcase for the harmonies and melodies to fly. 

In my previous post, I was mostly commenting on how to play "fiddle" tunes optimally well while performing onstage, and at normal breakneck speed, and primarily to fulfill its traditional format of accompanying a contra dance. I'm doing a lot of that right now. I have come to believe, perhaps contrary to all my usual nontraditional sentiments, that you just can't beat a fiddle to keep the melody churning, at speed, which lets everyone else in the band do their own part, best.

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## Bren

I understand where Niles is coming from. I'm still struggling to play mandolin so I'm not about to switch to fiddle, but I do suffer from fiddle envy. And they can play much faster.

Except, as one fiddler pointed out to me, you can't really play fiddle while lying on the couch watching TV

Really, I just wish I could sing!

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## Bertram Henze

Once again, dumbfounded I stand, watching the crowd stampede the wrong way...

As a kid, I had to learn to play the violin, but - to cut a long sad story short - the mandolin eventually reconciled me with playing music in general. After this lucky escape, I clearly perceive the violin as an instrument to come from, not to go to, an invention older than waterboarding but no less effective.

Not meaning to discourage anybody of course, I wish you good luck...  :Grin:

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## Dagger Gordon

In my experience Cape Breton fiddlers know quite a lot about playing for dancing.  I'm not sure if I would describe Buddy MacMaster as 'an adequate dance player' but at least it says he knows how to play for a dance.

The speed people do traditional dances at IS the speed their tunes should be played at.  All this stuff about playing slowly like Martin Hayes is all very well but I'm afraid I think it's beside the point (and yes - I know he comes from a ceili band background and can do it perfectly well if he wants to).  The speed Buddy plays at will be a good speed for traditional dance tunes, I'm fairly sure.

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## Rob Gerety

Right around 120 bbm most of the time.

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## 8ch(pl)

I sort of regret that I posted the comment about someone saying that Buddy MacMaster was an Adequate Dance Fiddler.  The fellow who said it passed away last year.  He was not being complimentary and although it was said out of jealousy, it isn't right for me to bring it up.  He was a fine fiddler in his own right.

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## JeffD

The speeds for dances, as played by Packie Byrne of Donegal

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## whistler

> If fiddle tunes are your game, you just can't sound right without a fiddle. Fiddle and mandolin may not be precisely as different as apples and oranges, but they are emphatically not interchangeable in terms of musical function.


Fiddle tunes are _fiddle_ tunes because they are normally or traditionally played on fiddle, in a genre that is dominated by the fiddle.  They may have been composed by fiddlers for fiddlers, many more were adapted (from songs or from other instruments) by fiddlers for the fiddle.  But once a mandolin player or an accordionist or flautist gets hold of it, it becomes adapted to _their_ instrument.  You can still call it a fiddle tune, because it comes from a repertoire that is principally the domain of fiddlers.  But a few generations down the line and it will have evolved into something different.  We rarely hear the term _fiddle tunes_ in connection with Irish traditional music because there is such a range of instruments on which any tune might be played - fiddle, flute, concertina, uilleann pipes, tenor banjo etc.  Even a tune that was composed by a fiddler, with an obvious bias toward that instrument, once taken up by players of other instruments, will very quickly be adapted to those instruments and may eventually evolve into a form that sits equally comfortably on all of them.   North American traditions*, on the other hand, tend overwhelmingly to have the fiddle as the dominant melody instrument, so the term _fiddle tunes_ makes sense - but I don't take this to mean that they cannot be done justice on any other instrument.

*My knowledge of North American traditional music is limited, so please forgive any gross generalizations. I am aware, of course, that accordions of various types are a major part of French Canadian and Louisana music.

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## whistler

...That said, I took up the fiddle after nearly 10 years of playing Irish music on mandolin, because, unlike the mandolin, the fiddle has a long and involved tradition in Irish music.  Much of the music has grown up around the fiddle (among other instruments), so I felt that it would give me a more direct route _into_ the music.  Nearly 6 years on, my fiddle playing is as scratchy as a hair shirt - I don't expect my fiddle technique will ever come close to catch up my mandolin technique (not that I'm anything special on the mandolin) - but I can capture nuances of the genre on the fiddle that I was only ever able to hear in my head when playing the mandolin.   Conversely, though, through playing the fiddle, those nuances have been impressed deeper on my musical consciousness and i have subsequently come closer to expressing them through the mandolin.

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## whistler

> Point well made.
> No doubt some BG players are very fleet of finger -- but don't think for a minute that the best players of celtic music are not just as fast.


I have absolutely no doubt that the best (and even some of the worst :Smile:  Irish, Scots and Cape Breton players _can_ play just as fast.  But not many _do_, in my experience.

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## whistler

> There does be hummingbirds all around my farmhouse back home. Don't know if they're native to our wee island or not or just passing thru but they are most certainly there...
> Jill


Hummingbirds in Ireland, Jill? That seems unlikely.  Are you sure you haven't been seeing hummingbird _hawk moths_? http://karennovak.files.wordpress.co...-hawk-moth.jpg

Sorry for the diversion.

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## Jill McAuley

Nope, it was definitely hummingbirds - which I myself thought was a bit odd, but having seen them before in California I knew what they looked like. My ma has seen them as well as they visited my front garden quite a bit...Really...

Cheers,
Jill

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## Bernie Daniel

Well I'm sure going to OT this one!  

For sure I was not there so I do not know for sure what you saw Jill – however, there are roughly 350 species of hummingbirds  (family Trochilidae).  The natural distribution all of these species is the Western Hemisphere.  No exceptions.   :Smile: 

Most hummingbird species live in Central America (Cost Rica and Panama are hot beds).  The contiguous USA has around 15 – 17 or so species and only one of them the Ruby-throated is typically found east of Mississippi River – you might on occasion find a few additional species in the extreme central south and southwestern USA and Mexico.   These birds do not use maps so it is not impossible to see them on the USA side of the boarder but the populations are centered in Mexico.  Sometimes they are blown far off-range in storms.

Humming birds in Europe?  No – at least not naturally.  Fossil records indicate that ancestral hummingbirds or a similar species may have been in Europe eons ago but I don’t think all ornithologists agree on this point.

Sometimes birds of all kinds are illegally transported from one country to another and I suppose it can happen with hummingbirds -- but where would they go for the winter in Ireland?.  They’d starve to death with no blooming flowers.

Some kind of human intervention is the only way they could be in Ireland or any other part of the “Old World” – they are “New World species having evolved only here (as far as we know) -- and there are no natural exceptions to that (as far as we know).

As whistler pointed out many people especially folks from Europe or Asia who have seen hummingbirds in the US will often mistake hummingbird moths – some such as the Clearwing moth (_Hemaris thysbe_), which looks very much like a hummingbird and are often mistaken for them because unlike many larger moths these are diurnal not nocturnal.  These moths are also nectar feeders and address flowers in the same way and their hovering is very hummingbird like – hence the name.  

In Ohio where I live we have the Sphinx Moth, (_Amphion floridensis_) which gives VERY good hummingbird imitation.  They have momentarily fooled me more than once --and I roughly know all of the 600+ North American species (although I get pretty rusty and flakey on ones I seldom see and I usually have to consult a handbook on a lot of the shore and coastal species).

Now back to your regular scheduled programming.....   :Smile:

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## Jill McAuley

Do these hummingbird-like moths sit on branches when not flying? I would see what I will now call a HSO - hummingbird shaped object, flying about, snacking or whatnot, and then it would alight on a branch for a wee rest and look for all the world just like the hummingbirds I see here in California.

Mandolin content: I would occasionally spy a HSO flying about while I would be out sitting on the bench in front of my farmhouse playing my *mandolin*....

Cheers,
Jill

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## 8ch(pl)

In a "related" subject,  I am listening to CBC Weekend Morning.  A duet with Natalie Mac Master and Bela Fleck just played.  Natalie is Buddy MacMaster's niece and she sure can play.  She is also a lovely girl.  She has been known to show up unannounced to play at a dance in Judique if she was visiting her family.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Natalie is Buddy MacMaster's niece and she sure can play. She is also a lovely girl. She has been known to show up unannounced to play at a dance in Judique if she was visiting her family.


Yes Cape Breton should make her their unofficial ambassador of good will -- she is a very outgoing individual.  She  starts all of her concerts by asking "OK is there anyone here from Cape Breton?"   :Smile: 

Unlike her uncle though she often strays off the reservation and plays all kinds of non-traditional music.  But its her call and her career of course -- I was just mentioning it.

She is a great fiddle player too. 

The song that started this string was Lasses of Stewarton reel -- I have not worked on it for about a week and went back to it last night for a while.

Since I have memorized the tune now I can actually play on with Buddy but not with any semblence of control -- he is simply playing notes faster than I came reliably move my fingers in an orderly manner.  So in the end I do not think it would matter what kind of an insturment I was playing -- on this tune he is just outrageously quick and it is as simple as that.   :Smile: 

Jill about moths alighting -- the moths we have here do not seem to do that but then I really do not recall watching them too closely and I don't know about what's in Europe -- maybe you did see a hummingbird in Ireland but some person would have probably had to bring it in -- interesting.

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## catmandu2

> ...you can't really play fiddle while lying on the couch watching TV


Oh, but you can!  It isn't the most natural, relaxed position--but still, it's the couch  :Sleepy:  :Mandosmiley:

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