# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Info on 1927 Calace lyra/lyre mandolin?

## Joziasse

Hello Cafémembers

I am new to the forum but have read many threads over the last few years. I still am not knowledgeable enough to chide in on any discussion, but I have in my possession a Calace lyra/lyre mandolin and thought I'd show it on the forum - if I'm succesful in putting pictures up.

Also, I wanted to have your opinions on the best way of handling this possession. That might sound odd, but on the net I found out that these Calace mandolins are museum pieces or held by serious collectors and/or musicians, and I have never owned an instrument of that sort. I am the noodle-around-kind of player who likes the old and odd and thus stumbled upon this one. So I'm considering the option of having it inducted in a Musical Instrument Museum, on loan or donated or sold or however they work. The other option is having it restaured, I guess, seeing as there is slight separation on two ribs as I hope the pictures show, and a small piece of the binding (is it bone?) between the ribs is missing. A final option is selling it to a better player than me. This last option would have me contact someone for an estimate, I'd think? Prices they sold for on the net seem highly variable. This one was made in 1927, and it has the 'Rafaelle Calace' autographed info inside. He was still alive at the time, but I don't know if this necessarily means he made it.

What I wanted to ask you good people is whether maybe you could tell me if you know someone in Europe who is an expert on these things? Or who could give an educted estimate on the value of this, and whether it should be insured or anything. Also, should I do something special to store it properly? I have no case for it.

Anyway, any info or shout-out would be appreciated, but I'll show some images now, I hope they show you the instrument properly and may you enjoy them.

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## Joziasse

Some more pictures, of the woodwork on and around the bowl, and the tailpiece:

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## Jim Garber

Joziasse: Welcome to the Mandolin Cafe. That is a very nice-looking mandolira and it sounds like it does not need too much work. You should tell us where you are located in Europe and I am sure that someone can recommend a good luthier to restore it.

I believe tho that this is really more of a novelty instrument that would appeal more to a collector. It would be a nice playing mandolin for sure but I do not know of any top level player who chooses this as they main instrument.

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## Joziasse

> Joziasse: Welcome to the Mandolin Cafe. That is a very nice-looking mandolira and it sounds like it does not need too much work. You should tell us where you are located in Europe and I am sure that someone can recommend a good luthier to restore it.
> 
> I believe tho that this is really more of a novelty instrument that would appeal more to a collector. It would be a nice playing mandolin for sure but I do not know of any top level player who chooses this as they main instrument.


Hi Jim

Thanks very much for your response. I knew it was an oddity from what I've read about them. I haven't the ear to discern between high-class instruments, but I've read praise on the lyre mandolin's playability and sound too. Maybe it's more for a collector or museum, is what I hear you're saying, and I think that's probably true.

This one found its way to Belgium. I like its historical aura and present odness. But, as I said, keeping it for myself might not be the way to go. I have just acquired it, so I'm musing. Will contact a museum dedicated to musical instruments in Belgium and also the current Calace workshop, seeing as they might know something interesting about it or want to hear about it or can recommend a restauration that would not kill its historical and/or monetary value.

Thanks again! If anyone has a question, feel free.

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## Jim Garber

Ah, you are in luck. I know an excellent luthier in Ghent: *Kurt DeCorte*. He did a wonderful restoration on my prized 1904 Embergher mandolin. I would bring it to him and you can mention my name. he certainly knows how to restore instruments and not kill its historical value.

I am not sure how many museums would be interested in this mandolin. It is no all that uncommon and was made in a small factory and is not as old as some museums would prefer. Of course, you can always try.

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## Joziasse

> Ah, you are in luck. I know an excellent luthier in Ghent: *Kurt DeCorte*. He did a wonderful restoration on my prized 1904 Embergher mandolin. I would bring it to him and you can mention my name. he certainly knows how to restore instruments and not kill its historical value.
> 
> I am not sure how many museums would be interested in this mandolin. It is no all that uncommon and was made in a small factory and is not as old as some museums would prefer. Of course, you can always try.


Hi Jim

Once again, thanks for the directions. If a museum might nog be the way to go, it would be left for me to keep it or sell it. I wanted to ask if it is a good idea to have it restaured if I was to sell it, seeing as a collector might nog be a player but someone who wants it in original form with no subsequent work done. I don't know how the antique world of instruments thinks about these things. Maybe someone has an insight on this?

If I'm to sell it, there is still the matter of the price. Antiquarians around here, I'll want to skip over, but it would be hard to settle on an asking price because the selling prices vary greatly on the interweb. In Belgium, I suspect the market to be quite small for something like this, as it is for most things of a 'different' nature. Maybe someone has experience with selling or buying one of these?

Always nice to hear anything. Thanks again, Jim!

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## allenhopkins

> ...I wanted to ask if it is a good idea to have it restaured if I was to sell it, seeing as a collector might nog be a player but someone who wants it in original form with no subsequent work done. I don't know how the antique world of instruments thinks about these things. Maybe someone has an insight on this?...


Small repairs do not impair the value of a collectors' instrument; if done by a skilled person, they would rather enhance the value.  The "restorations" that impact the value negatively include: refinishing, replacement with non-original parts or materials, and attempts at "modernizing" or counterfeiting, such as additional inlays, ornamentation etc.

If you don't want to keep the instrument, I think that its unusual design and good pedigree -- Calace being one of the more respected Italian builders -- should make it attractive to collectors.  Did a brief Google search on Calace lyre mandolins and found several that were for sale or had been sold; *here's* one listed for $7,000 and apparently sold.  *Lazar's Early Music* lists another one for $4,500.  As Jim G points out, they're not the one-of-a-kind "rare birds" that bring really high prices, but they do command respectable asking prices.

So I'd guess there's a players' market as well as collectors, especially for those doing "early music" (though this particular instrument's not that old).  Don't think of it only as a museum piece, although it would make an attractive display item.

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## Joziasse

> Small repairs do not impair the value of a collectors' instrument; if done by a skilled person, they would rather enhance the value.  The "restorations" that impact the value negatively include: refinishing, replacement with non-original parts or materials, and attempts at "modernizing" or counterfeiting, such as additional inlays, ornamentation etc.
> 
> If you don't want to keep the instrument, I think that its unusual design and good pedigree -- Calace being one of the more respected Italian builders -- should make it attractive to collectors.  Did a brief Google search on Calace lyre mandolins and found several that were for sale or had been sold; *here's* one listed for $7,000 and apparently sold.  *Lazar's Early Music* lists another one for $4,500.  As Jim G points out, they're not the one-of-a-kind "rare birds" that bring really high prices, but they do command respectable asking prices.
> 
> So I'd guess there's a players' market as well as collectors, especially for those doing "early music" (though this particular instrument's not that old).  Don't think of it only as a museum piece, although it would make an attractive display item.


Hi Allen

Thanks for joining in! I saw those ads and their prices, and you referring to them makes me believe they can be used as actual reference prices. What I think I'll do is contact the luthier Jim Garber recommended and see what the restauration would amount to. I'll simultaneuously start asking around if anyone knows anyone who might be interested in buying this instrument. I'm not familiar with the classical milieu around these parts, but the allmighty interweb might point me in the right direction.

Thanks so much for the info and tips so far! Mandolincafe is truly a virtual treasurehouse.

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## Jim Garber

I can't imagine that many early music players would be interested in this as a playing instrument. Perhaps a renaissance fair player but this is not any authentic instrument or even a repro from an earlier era. As i said, really more of a novelty but well made and worth something to someone.

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## Joziasse

> I can't imagine that many early music players would be interested in this as a playing instrument. Perhaps a renaissance fair player but this is not any authentic instrument or even a repro from an earlier era. As i said, really more of a novelty but well made and worth something to someone.


Hi Jim

I have not found a review of the instrument comparing it to the normal-shaped bowlbacks of Raffaele Calace. The 'arms' do not feel to be in the way when playing the instrument, so I don't know why these shouldn't be played as much.

Do you think it was made then as a novelty as well? Intentionally inferior in construction for sound and thus with lesser tonal qualities? Could be, ofcourse. I sent an email to the current Calace workshop, maybe they will have an opinion on this.

It's a shame there's no detailed evaluation of the musical qualities of these instruments, and I know I'm not the guy to do it. Maybe Kurt Decorte could provide more insight into this. I'll let you know as soon as I learn something more.

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## Matt Vuksinich

I AM a fan of the Calace mandolira!  In 1972 I had the pleasure of seeing Lorenzo Andrini from San Francisco playing one--it was his stage instrument for years (he had a long-standing gig in Las Vegas), and I had always craved but never found one, until maybe about 5 yrs ago, when one showed up at Tall Toad Music in Petaluma, CA . . . . it was wonderful!  I'm at work now, but I think it's a 1918.  I've also been able to play Lorenzo's two (1898, and 1906--the 1906 was by far the better of the 2, despite the fact that he had cut off the back of the bowl to make it flat, and easier to play standing, and a huge hole in the soundboard for a D'Armand pickup--yet, those alterations didn't adversely affect the tone!).  I've also played another 2 owned by a friend in Calf, both good but not great in tone.  I loved mine, though . . . . until a couple yrs ago when a string broke, then I restrung it with Calace strings, and it's never been the same since.  I can tell you categorically that it is NOT inferior in construction or tonal quality to normal Calace bowlbacks.  The "horns" of the lyre do not add anything sonically--nor do they detract--they just look cool.

I heartily second Jim's advice about Kurt DeCorte--he's actually working on my Embergher mandolin and mandola right now.  If I were local like you, I'd send my mandolira to him in a heartbeat!

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## brunello97

Matt,  why do you think the sound of your mandolira turned sour with the Calace strings?  What type strings were on it before?

Mick

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## Joziasse

> I AM a fan of the Calace mandolira!  In 1972 I had the pleasure of seeing Lorenzo Andrini from San Francisco playing one--it was his stage instrument for years (he had a long-standing gig in Las Vegas), and I had always craved but never found one, until maybe about 5 yrs ago, when one showed up at Tall Toad Music in Petaluma, CA . . . . it was wonderful!  I'm at work now, but I think it's a 1918.  I've also been able to play Lorenzo's two (1898, and 1906--the 1906 was by far the better of the 2, despite the fact that he had cut off the back of the bowl to make it flat, and easier to play standing, and a huge hole in the soundboard for a D'Armand pickup--yet, those alterations didn't adversely affect the tone!).  I've also played another 2 owned by a friend in Calf, both good but not great in tone.  I loved mine, though . . . . until a couple yrs ago when a string broke, then I restrung it with Calace strings, and it's never been the same since.  I can tell you categorically that it is NOT inferior in construction or tonal quality to normal Calace bowlbacks.  The "horns" of the lyre do not add anything sonically--nor do they detract--they just look cool.
> 
> I heartily second Jim's advice about Kurt DeCorte--he's actually working on my Embergher mandolin and mandola right now.  If I were local like you, I'd send my mandolira to him in a heartbeat!


Hi Matt

Thanks for sharing your experience with and appreciation of the instrument. I'm glad you found one you like and I too find it fascinating that the sound went with the strings. Were they the original strings before you changed them? Or just a totally different type from the Calace ones?

Btw, cafe members, if you know someone who is looking for a Calace lyre mandolin, and might be interested in buying this one, feel free to let me know. I'll probably end up selling it - seems the best thing to do from what I hear around here, and I think it means more to others than it does to me. For now, Im trying to fix some kind of case for it and will take it to luthier Decorte for an examination. I'll update when I find out something interesting.

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## allenhopkins

> ...Btw, cafe members, if you know someone who is looking for a Calace lyre mandolin, and might be interested in buying this one, feel free to let me know. I'll probably end up selling it - seems the best thing to do from what I hear around here, and I think it means more to others than it does to me...


Listing it in the Cafe classifieds might be a good selling strategy.  Shipping it from Belgium might make it a bit pricy, but it's an unusual and interesting mandolin, and you're hitting an audience that might well be receptive.

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## Matt Vuksinich

[QUOTE=brunello97;1124895]Matt,  why do you think the sound of your mandolira turned sour with the Calace strings?  What type strings were on it before?

I suspect that I may have knocked a brace loose, or something as mundane than that--I think the string change was actually coincidental, as I always restring one string at a time.  I'm embarrassed to admit that I've never tried re-stringing it again.  I've had a couple famous luthiers who we all hear of on the Cafe look at it, but they couldn't find the problem (just re-emphasizes the lack of bowlback-knowledgable luthiers in the U.S.--I know there are a couple of others I could send it to, but, you know, expense and effort once you become disheartened!).

Attached is a photo of Andrini's mandolira.

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## Joziasse

> Listing it in the Cafe classifieds might be a good selling strategy.  Shipping it from Belgium might make it a bit pricy, but it's an unusual and interesting mandolin, and you're hitting an audience that might well be receptive.


Hi Allen

Thanks for the tip! A friend told me about the 'classifieds', seems the right way to go. When I have it ready for an international sale, which I imagine would have it pass throught the luthier and snugly fit into some kind of solid box, I'll put it up there.

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## Joziasse

Hi Matt

Thanks so much for putting that picture up, it looks so much like this one, except for the pickguard! Lovely to see another one so much like it. Glad they're being enjoyed! A shame it disheartened you, they're might be music in its old bones yet!

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## Joziasse

Hi everyone

I have decided to sell this mandolira and listed it in the classifieds section of the website. If you are interested in owning this one, you are welcome to check out the ad.

Thanks again for the information provided!

Joziasse

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## JeffD

That is so cool. I am rushing right now to the classifieds to see your ad. I could really enjoy something like that. It would get played. Alot.

I would love to hear how it sounds.

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## brunello97

> That is so cool. I am rushing right now to the classifieds to see your ad. I could really enjoy something like that. It would get played. Alot.
> 
> I would love to hear how it sounds.


Take a deep breath, amigo.  "$4500-7000 will be used as guidelines".  Now I'm cleaning limonata off my computer screen.  Guidelines for what?  Numbers-to-be-divisible-by-four? (Add to that the restoration costs from a repairperson the seller has only recently gleaned from conversation here at the MC....) Is it a laugh or gag reflex that kicks in?

Caveat Emptor.

Mick

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## Joziasse

> Take a deep breath, amigo.  "$4500-7000 will be used as guidelines".  Now I'm cleaning limonata off my computer screen.  Guidelines for what?  Numbers-to-be-divisible-by-four? (Add to that the restoration costs from a repairperson the seller has only recently gleaned from conversation here at the MC....) Is it a laugh or gag reflex that kicks in?
> 
> Caveat Emptor.
> 
> Mick



Hi Mick

There is no possible factual basis for a price on this instrument, making it necessarily subjective, i.e. the amount a buyer would spend. The only buying prices I have are the ones I have seen on the net and no other prices have surfaced here. You may notice I didn't go for the highest as a set price, which in my apparent naive greed I would have. 

It is only fair to say: where did you get your buying price, other than what you would be willing to spend on it, arbitrarily? I'm not saying the instrument should bring that amount, but you are saying it shouldn't. So, I'd like to hear what you are basing your dispraisal on.

Other than that, I must say I didn't like reading the contempt in your reply. It must have to do with either the price, or the fact that I learned what to to do with the mando on this forum. Since I can only hope this forum is not elitist, I would say that 'gleaning' the name of a suitable local luthier is exactly the kind of help this forum wishes to purvey. I since have learned that a friend of mine lives close to this workshop and we paid it a visit. I didn't have the mandolin with me at the time, since I have not yet found a decent box for it, but it didn't seem it would take all that much work. Again, I said I would use the known prices as guidelines, meaning I would discuss the final price with the bidder.

Bringing both remarks together, the question seems to be: had I listed the instrument in the classifieds and presented it here without asking any information on it, would that have been more suitable? It's not poker - caveat venditor.

I know that Beckett quote like I know my name. It seems at odds here.

I didn't like seeing this thread turn nasty, so I suggest that, if someone wants to comment on prices for this, please do reply. As I said in my previous posts, I'd like nothing better than to learn about this.

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## allenhopkins

Well, there were on-line offerings of similar instruments in the price range Joziasse listed:




> Did a brief Google search on Calace lyre mandolins and found several that were for sale or had been sold; *here's* one listed for $7,000 and apparently sold. *Lazar's Early Music* lists another one for $4,500.


-- if you don't mind my quoting myself.  So we're not talking lunacy or ridiculousness here.

If the price range is unrealistic, Joziasse will get no response to his listing, and will have to consider reducing the price or listing it elsewhere -- perhaps consigning it to a dealer.

I see no need to make fun of him ("laugh or gag reflex").  He doesn't know what the mandolira will bring on the market, and is only going by what others have asked for them.  It's an unusual instrument, not often sold, so there's going to be a trial-and-error period while it's determined "what the traffic will bear."  He's also asking for bids -- "best offer" -- so if you think it's worth $80, $800 or $8000, send in your bid.

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## Jim Garber

As I noted above, this is really a novelty instrument tho well-made in the Calace tradition. Most likely it will sell to someone in Europe and unless someone is familiar with it and is seriously looking for one, will be priced as the market will bear. It is a mandolin with a larger collectible factor than one that one would want as a playing instrument. In other words, a regular quality Calace mandolin from that same era with the same acoustic qualities might sell for tops $2000-3000 these days so the higher priced quoted are for the peculiar design of this model.

I dunno about that More Music site -- the one with the $7k mandolira. Has anybody from CA been to that store in Santa Cruz? They have a few instruments there that have been there for years. I wonder if that mandolira really sold for anywhere near $7000.

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## Jim Garber

the novelty aspect of this is similar to this *Dyer harp mandolin*: the price is way over what its intrinsic worth as a musical instrument is. However, the collectibility and rarity adds to the price. The dealer is asking $9,500 for this one.

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## Joziasse

> the novelty aspect of this is similar to this *Dyer harp mandolin*: the price is way over what its intrinsic worth as a musical instrument is. However, the collectibility and rarity adds to the price. The dealer is asking $9,500 for this one.


Hi Jim

Thanks for the added info. I understand this one's not for everyone. If it was, It'd be for me too. We'll see what turns up. I'm willing to ship it anywhere, but it would need to be in a strong box before I do that, I'm still thinking on what to use for that.

Also, I'm considering having it restaured anyway, and see if someone with an ear for this will play it and give their thoughts on it. We have some excellent classical mandolin players in Belgium, perhaps one of them would want to give it a whirl.

The picture you put up, that's a nice looking oddity indeed. It really has you imagining why exactly they wanted to build an instrument like this. Seems to me the out-of-the-ordinary parts on these would serve to show out-of-the-ordinary capacities in the maker. Everyone can build the one shape (albeit to diffferent effect), so I'll build an extravagant shape? Something like that maybe.

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

> I dunno about that More Music site -- the one with the $7k mandolira. Has anybody from CA been to that store in Santa Cruz? They have a few instruments there that have been there for years. I wonder if that mandolira really sold for anywhere near $7000.


I just poked around on that store's website. Some of the mandos seems reasonably priced, while others may be a bit optimistic. For instance, a pre-war A-00 listed for $3200? I don't know about that.  I wonder if the Calace was in that same vein. 

But in any case, I think the OP is entitled to asking whatever he feels this unique instrument is worth.  Maybe he won't get that much, but if he's not in a hurry to sell, he just needs to wait for that one person who really wants this particular instrument.

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## JeffD

> The picture you put up, that's a nice looking oddity indeed. It really has you imagining why exactly they wanted to build an instrument like this.


In the case of the harp mandolin Jim posted, it evolved from an earlier form, where the extended arm had its own strings and tuners, without frets, to be played like a harp or drone. In later forms the extra harp strings were dropped but the extension remains. What effect it has on the sound is up for debate.

In the case of your Calace, those extension are probably purley decorative, evoking a lyre obviously, but probably never in any previous incarnation being strung like a lyre.

I saw one like yours in a museum catalog once, but I have never held one or played one. I think they are very very cool looking, and I can think of many occations in which I would play it, even if it sounded no better than my bowlback, where it would be perhaps a little striking, but not inappropriate. As long as it sounded no worse than my worst bowlback.

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