# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  Snark tuners damaging finish

## multidon

I know this has been discussed before, but based on the recommendations here and the many who sing the praises of the Snark tuners I have acquired 2 red ones form The Mandolin Store's Black Friday special, at 8.99 each. I think that was ridiculous for such a nice tuner, and I felt lucky to get them for that.

But on the subject of possible finish damage, which as I said has come up before, I found this  in the Snark instruction sheet:

"Snark advises NOT (emphasis theirs) to use its tuner with any instruments having these types of finishes: Nitrocellulose Lacquer, Polyurethane, French Polish (scratches easily). These are some of the brands that currently or have used Nitrocellulose Lacquer finishes: Gibson, Gretsch, Taylor. These are some of the brands that have used or currently use Polyurethane finishes: Fender, Epiphone, Gretsch, Ibenez."

It seems funny to me that they are selling these clip on tuners with the clip/vibration sensor feature specifically to clip on a headstock (what other reason would there be for this feature?) and then say they recommend that you don't use it as it was designed. After all if you eliminate nitro, polyurethane, and shellac (French polish), that probably accounts for about 95 percent of all stringed instruments, doesn't it?

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## shortymack

Maybe if you left it attached for days they could do some damage but I've never had an issue with my snark on nitro and especially poly, which is actaully funny that they say it can damage. Poly would survive WW3.

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## Jim

I have all the listed finishes and have noticed no damage, sometimes leave tuner on for a few hours at a gig or jam. Take it off when I put it back in case or on wall hanger.

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## PJ Doland

I think that's just a CYA thing. They don't want to be legally liable for any damage the product may cause to somebody's **very** expensive vintage instrument.

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G. Fisher

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## MikeEdgerton

> I think that's just a CYA thing. They don't want to be legally liable for any damage the product may cause to somebody's **very** expensive vintage instrument.


Yup.

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## Texas

Here is a post I made a few weeks ago regarding this subject. The company replied to my question regarding damaged finished which is located close to the bottom of the thread.

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multidon

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## Shelagh Moore

I've not had a problem so far using Snarks on any of these finishes but do not leave my tuner permanently attached.

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## sunburst

> It seems funny to me that they are selling these clip on tuners with the clip/vibration sensor feature specifically to clip on a headstock (what other reason would there be for this feature?) and then say they recommend that you don't use it as it was designed. After all if you eliminate nitro, polyurethane, and shellac (French polish), that probably accounts for about 95 percent of all stringed instruments, doesn't it?


It doesn't seem that strange to me. They designed the tuner to clip on, not even considering what the reaction with finishes might be, then they started getting reports that finishes have been damaged. The things are selling pretty well, and they're choices are; a) take them off of the market immediately out of concern for the finish on people's instruments, or b) have their lawyers draw up a disclaimer advising against using them on the finishes that have been reported damaged (CYA, as mentioned) and keep selling them. 
Considering that their business model has more to do with selling than with protecting instrument finishes, they obviously chose "b".

I believe I'm already on record (in some ancient thread) wondering what the finishes on pegheads will look like in another 10 years or so, and also what guitar makers will do about their logos and "product placement" on TV when tunes cover up logos in the traditional position.

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## Chip Booth

I have marks on all of my instruments from clip on tuners.  I have yet to use one of any brand one that won't leave a mark, especially on varnish finishes.  It's just the price I pay for convenient tuning until someone comes up with something better.

Also, Snarks and every other clip on tuner I have tried except for one, the discontinued Korg AW-1, do not tune well.  I can hear differences in tuning from one string to another, and make changes in pitch I can clearly hear that don't register on the tuner.  If anyone wants to sell me their AW-1 cheap let me know, I have a stash of them.

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## Texas

> It doesn't seem that strange to me. They designed the tuner to clip on, not even considering what the reaction with finishes might be, then they started getting reports that finishes have been damaged. The things are selling pretty well, and they're choices are; a) take them off of the market immediately out of concern for the finish on people's instruments, or b) have their lawyers draw up a disclaimer advising against using them on the finishes that have been reported damaged (CYA, as mentioned) and keep selling them. 
> Considering that their business model has more to do with selling than with protecting instrument finishes, they obviously chose "b".
> 
> I believe I'm already on record (in some ancient thread) wondering what the finishes on pegheads will look like in another 10 years or so, and also what guitar makers will do about their logos and "product placement" on TV when tunes cover up logos in the traditional position.


*"They designed the tuner to clip on, not even considering what the reaction with finishes might be..."*

Sorry to be disagreeable, but these companies are very aware of the resulting blemishes that may be caused by their design and I strongly suspect have modified design over time to make the problem less of a problem.

Now, let me really upset folks...Anyone—including me—that clips one of these tuners on their headstock thinking there will be no damage is just not thinking very well. That very question prompted me to use a cotton cloth between the clip and my new Loar headstock because I figured a blemish was bound to happen sooner or later which further prompted me to send a note to DeltaLab for their response and that response is located in the link above. They clearly state that damage may occur. I have since started using the tuner app on my iPhone, but still use the clip-on on an old beater that I am practicing with.

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## sunburst

> Sorry to be disagreeable, but these companies are very aware of the resulting blemishes that may be caused by their design and I strongly suspect have modified design over time to make the problem less of a problem.


So you're saying they designed and marketed the clip knowing full well they would damage finishes? Why would they then modify the design over time if finish damage was intended in the first place?

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## fiddler37

I think that a VARNISH finish is the most delicate and probably should NOT have a tuner attached to it.  There are ways to use a tuner without clamping on to the instrument.

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## John McCoy

Could they just come up with some other material, that won't damage finishes, to face the jaws of the clamp?

I know there are materials scientists here; maybe one of you knows of something.

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## Gerard Dick

The pads are made with variations of silicon plastic that has traction so the tuner doesn't slip around.  It is similar to the plastic worms used in fishing. Not the same but sharing some attributes. One of those attributes is plasticizer to keep the plastic soft. That stuff also softens paint, lacquer, varnish, urethane...the list goes on.  I have some blemishes on my Weber Yellowstone head stock courtesy of a korg tuner. Live and learn.  Use it. Tune it. Don't park it there.  Ditto for the capo if you play guitar. Park it in your pocket if it is a clamp on unit with the plastic pads.

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John McCoy, 

robert.najlis

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## FL Dawg

It works fine in mic mode next to the instrument. Or maybe someone could figure out how to replace the rubber traction strip with something vintage friendly. I'm not surprised that nitro & varnish don't stand up well to plastic chemicals.

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## texaspaul

One also damaged the gold foil on my Martin headstock.

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## John McCoy

Thanks, Gerard; that's a clear and convincing answer. 

But now after thinking about it, I wonder whether it might work to attach the tuner to one of the tuning buttons.  Obviously, this won't work for someone who wants to leave the tuner in place, and would require moving the tuner once if you're tuning the entire instrument.  Are the tuner buttons more impervious to effects of the plasticizer?

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## Marty Jacobson

Makes me want to incorporate a "tuner tab" of uncoated aluminum or brass onto the back of the headstock of my instruments. Hmm....

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## multidon

> Makes me want to incorporate a "tuner tab" of uncoated aluminum or brass onto the back of the headstock of my instruments. Hmm....


Now that's a stroke of genius! A real case of making lemonade out of lemons would be to embrace the problem and incorporating some kind of impervious substance into the headstock design. A real modern touch.

Another possibility is oiled wood. I was informed recently by Weber that they do not put finish on their inlayed ebony headstock veneers anymore but simply oil them. Can't see how the rubber could harm that.

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## Bernie Daniel

FWIW, I have had no problems at all with Snark tuners even if left for extended periods of time on various Gibson, Weber, Eastman, Martin, Kentucky or Epiphone instruments.  Knock on wood.

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## KSmith

Interesting.  I bought one about 2 weeks ago.  Under the "Caution" heading, my instruction sheet states *"Leaving the tuner attached permanently to the instrument for a long time period could cause marring of the finish. We recommend you remove the tuner from the instrument after you fisnish playing"*   Nothing more, nor the naming of specific instrument makers or finishes.

Has all the hallmarks of a "use commonsense" blurb to me.  Nothing like the blurb on the back of my fly tying hooks - "found unsafe for human consumption in the state of California." That one was a head scratcher.

Maybe I'm using this thing wrong. I clip it on when I take the mando out of the case just to make sure everything is still in tune, and then put it away after all strings are checked.  2 minutes max.  

Ken

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## Texas

> Makes me want to incorporate a "tuner tab" of uncoated aluminum or brass onto the back of the headstock of my instruments. Hmm....


Excellent idea...

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## Paul Merlo

man, you guys had me scared about this one.  I'm sure you'll be happy to know my Weber headstock is just fine and I don't see any signs of damage after over a year of use.  I use a Snark tuner, then usually remove it immediately.  My mando stays in tune very well, so I"m guessing total contact time has been less than 3 hours total since Sept, 2011.

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## Ivan Kelsall

I've used my Red Snark on both my mandolins - the Weber with a lacquer finish & the Lebeda with a varnish finish & there's no sign of any damage.I do however only use the Snark to tune up initially & then it's off,so it's only attached to the headstock for a couple of minutes at a time. I also use a couple of Intelli tuners & again,no damage.I suppose that knowing what we do re.Neoprene rubber
affecting some finishes,we should all be a bit cautious anyway,
                                                                                   Ivan

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## Beanzy

> Makes me want to incorporate a "tuner tab" of uncoated aluminum or brass onto the back of the headstock of my instruments. Hmm....


Why not a swivel out tab behind the neck where it joins the body?. Could sell a wee clip on chord crib sheet / set list holder too. Oh and a coffee cup holder too, and a place for clipping the screen for You Tube lessons...... ok I think I can see where this is going.
 :Smile:  

But a wee fold of lint free cloth will be thin but put a barrier between the finish and the rubberised plastic. I've tried it and it's no poorer at tuning with it in there. I won't bother using it normally as I don't care about a bit of normal wear and tear on my cheapo.

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## Miked

I don't keep my Snark parked on the headstock, but i make sure to pay a little attention to how it's being removed.  How many scratches occur from dragging the pad across the headstock without the jaws being fully open?  FWIW, I shelled out $10 for the Peterson iStroboSoft for my phone and that's a great app; it really nails the tuning!

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## Robert Mitchell

> Could they just come up with some other material, that won't damage finishes, to face the jaws of the clamp?
> 
> I know there are materials scientists here; maybe one of you knows of something.


I noted that my intelli 500 has a round flat pad, maybe 7/16" in dia. but the Snark has a rectangular pad with
ridges. Seems to me, the round flat pad is a better design, Also,,the spring tension on the Snark is stronger.
I wouldn't leave the Snark on for any length of time,,just to tune.  Don't like the ridges!!

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## Astro

Theres only one good thing about having an inexpensive, used, satin finish  mando.

I dont care !

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## Tom Mylet

Like most things I buy, I immediately threw the instructions away and promptly left my Snark tuner on the headstock. The mark it left on my headstock was annoying but not unbearable. Next trip to the drugstore I picked up a packet of Dr. Scholls moleskin, a fleshcolored material with adhesive on the back. I think it's for corns or bunyons.

No further headstock marks. I've since put in the sides of capos (used on guitars only) and still have more than a life times supply.

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greg_tsam

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## AlanN

My camp: Clamp it, Tune it, Lose it.

I used to use a Boss tuner with a Matrix clip, which had a nice, light clamp grip. No danger of marring at all. But the Snark is so dang convenient...I actually think they could back off a bit on the jaws torque.

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greg_tsam, 

John Duncan

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## Steve Ostrander

I had a Eastman md varnish that had damge on the headstock from the PO who left a tuner clipped on. I have no idea if it was a Snark, but I suspect it was, or how long he left it on there.

Although I own one, I'm not a huge fan of the Snark. I think they look ridiculous when left clipped on the headstock. After tuning, I immediately remove the little bugger. And one of the little doodads that hold the tuning dial to the clip part broke off. I guess I can't expect much for less than $10.

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## Bill Baldridge

It is true that mandolins will start to look used if you use them.

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Alyx Hanson, 

Chip Booth, 

greg_tsam, 

H.P., 

Mike Bunting, 

Phil Goodson, 

zeeku777

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## greg_tsam

I've never had a problem with them leaving a mark I couldn't rub off.  I was thinking about gluing a small piece of leather on the grips but the moleskin solution seems easier.

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## Mandobart

> I have marks on all of my instruments from clip on tuners.  I have yet to use one of any brand one that won't leave a mark, especially on varnish finishes.  It's just the price I pay for convenient tuning until someone comes up with something better.


My same experience.  My planet waves tuners left worse marks than the snark.  I'll often keep the snark on for quite a while (4 - 5 hours) with instruments sitting on the stand or during a gig.  I've had good success removing/minimizing the marks with Meguiars.  I like the idea of using moleskin, chamois or other soft material between the tuner and headstock.

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## zeeku777

Just to throw in my two cents:

I do in fact have a snark clip on tuner - and it has in fact marred up the head-stock on my Loar LM-600 quite a bit. It just looks strange more than anything, and I was never really concerned about it considering I bought the instrument for it's gorgeous voice and not it's looks.

I do not know enough about my mando to know what finish it has on it - but the snark is definitely marring it a bit from me leaving it on through gigs and night-long jams with friends.


(Anyone know if it continues: will it cause any serious damage beyond cosmetic issues?)

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## Buck

I've been using headstock tuners since the first Intelletouch models came out.  (Still have a "patent pending" version.)  I've never left any of them on long enough to cause finish damage - tune, remove, repeat as needed.  I haven't done that to avoid damage as much as to minimize the visual distraction in my peripheral field of view.

I don't know the chemical makeup of moleskin, but I wouldn't assume that it is safe for lacquer finishes.  If the padding or adhesive layers are vinyl based, it could do far more damage than the original padding on the tuner.  Likewise, some chromium tanned leathers react with lacquer.  Vegetable tanned leather is safe, but may not be tacky enough to hold.  Thin cork padding is likely the safest alternative and it is fairly slip resistant.  That would be my first choice if I wanted to replace the original rubber pads.

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## Austin Bob

The Snark left a wavy mark on my new Gibson. It's very faint, and I was to rub most of it out with a polishing cloth. You have to know it's there and look for it at just the right angle under a light to see it.

Does anyone know if the Peterson StroboClip has the same issue? I looked at one and it has a softer, flat pad. It's also fairly pricey, and I've been known to drop them or lose them.

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## mandroid

Hmm , the bulkier intellitouch , tuner, and only issue is on it is fitting tapered thinner headstocks, loose,
 like on my A50.
It leaves no marks..  i've noticed.

I put a lanyard on my tuner, [like the tools used on  'space walks'.] 
 so if it falls it hits the arrest line before the ground.
[Or, rather than drifting into the junk cloud in orbit above the atmosphere..]

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## Ivan Kelsall

I'm with 'trainmaster' on this. The Snark springs are stronger than they need to be. I also don't see the need for 'tyre tread' pads on the thing either.Those things would look fine on an SUV !!.Personally slightly weaker clip springs & a thin felt pad would be much better,provided it was stuck on with double sided tape (or similar) & not any type of adhesive that could bleed through the felt & damage the finish. Having just mentioned that aspect,maybe _natural cork_ sheet (not the rubberised gasket type material) would do the trick.For anybody who wants (needs) to leave the tuner clipped to the headstock,replacing those rubber pads would be the answer (IMHO).
   There is one other option that the Snark tuner has,that of picking up the actual 'notes' played using the in-built mic. I've not tried it yet,but i'm wondering if the tuner was clipped to your strap close to the mandolin body,would that be sufficiently close to pick up the notes ?. It's worth a try,considering that it's meant to be clipped to the headstock & the mic.is intended to work from there- mmmmm !. Incidentally,i have tried the mic._held_ close to the strings & the tuner is spot on,
                              Ivan :Wink:

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## Robert Mitchell

I just removed the "ribs" w/sandpaper.
I feel a lot better with a flat surface...no effect in performance.

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## narrick

this is not a problem just for the snark tuners, it happens with just any other accesory with rubber parts in it, i have readed thousands of times the issues that can cause a guitar stands in the finish of guitars and mandolins with nitro finish...

they could put a cloth cover in the clamp, but the tuner would be more expensive and the cloth would wear soon... they sell a cheap product that can cause some problem (the same problem that pricier tuner can cause too), you must live with it or buy another tuner made of different materials, or a non clampable tuner

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## Alyx Hanson

I haven't had any trouble with my Snark tuners, and I left one clamped to my octave for a couple of weeks at one point. Although two of my three instruments (including that octave) have satin finishes, so that might be part of why I'm not seeing marks. Generally speaking, I take the same tack as most people seem to be doing: clamp it on, tune the instrument, take it off, play.

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## AlanN

I like the sanding-down-the-rubber-feet technique. Then how about covering (carefully, with glue) the nubs with those little green felt pads you see on the bottom of decorative plates and pottery?

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## shortymack

If you sand down the ribs there is going to be more rubber making contact, which if thats the culprit, will just make it worse.

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## Bill Bradshaw

> Why not a swivel out tab behind the neck where it joins the body?. Could sell a wee clip on chord crib sheet / set list holder too. Oh and a coffee cup holder too, and a place for clipping the screen for You Tube lessons...... ok I think I can see where this is going.
>  
> 
> But a wee fold of lint free cloth will be thin but put a barrier between the finish and the rubberised plastic. I've tried it and it's no poorer at tuning with it in there. I won't bother using it normally as I don't care about a bit of normal wear and tear on my cheapo.


That's what I did when I noticed some scuffing with a tuner I had before I got the Snark.  Just sewed up a little cotton bootie to slip over the rubber pads.  Didn't seem to affect the tuner function at all.  I'll probably get around to making one for the Snark too.

Bill

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## GDAE

Cork is NOT a better choice.  My armrest came with a leather bumper on the top and cork on the bottom.  The cork made a mark I cannot get off of the finish.  The leather did not. I have since replaced the cork with leather.  I've never had a tuner leave a mark, but I only use it to tune, I don't leave it on if I'm not using it.

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## jmp

For what it is worth I've left mine on the headstock for a year without any damage to the finish, though I do not have one of the delicate finishes mentioned above.  It actually seems to be that constantly putting it on and taking it off might lead to more chances for scratches and wear than just leaving it there.  However, I'll be more careful in the future.

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## Dennis Peacock

Wow. I am learning a lot here. I have a Snark tuner. I tune with it and I take it off. No problems here.

The way I see it...if you don't want anything to happen to your mando? Leave it in the case. I bought mine to play and enjoy.  :Mandosmiley:

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Mike Bunting

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## Mike Bunting

> Wow. I am learning a lot here. I have a Snark tuner. I tune with it and I take it off. No problems here.
> 
> The way I see it...if you don't want anything to happen to your mando? Leave it in the case. I bought mine to play and enjoy.


You are absolutely right. People sure seem to get worked up about mere cosmetic issues.

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## Buck

> Cork is NOT a better choice.  My armrest came with a leather bumper on the top and cork on the bottom.  The cork made a mark I cannot get off of the finish.  The leather did not. I have since replaced the cork with leather.  I've never had a tuner leave a mark, but I only use it to tune, I don't leave it on if I'm not using it.


I've no doubt that some rubberized cork might attack a lacquer finish, but natural cork will not.  Repairmen often use cork padded clamps on finished instruments without issue.

By the same token, some leather is safe while other isn't.  I bought a capo once that had leather padding.  I don't know anything about the origin of that particular leather, but it reacted with the finish on my guitar neck within the first week of use.  I replaced it with a vegetable tanned leather pad and have had no further issues.

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## Rob Meldrum

I'm with the "use it and remove it" crowd.  The Snark is so convenient when I'm plying with my band, and I have nothing bad to say about it.  I never leave my capo clamped on to the headstock of my instruments either.

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## mandolirius

> You are absolutely right. People sure seem to get worked up about mere cosmetic issues.


Despite the flack I'll probably receive, I'm going to say this thread is a perfect example of why it's getting so hard to find any kind of meaningful discussion here. There's so much drivel to wade through. This, technically-speaking, isn't even a mandolin-related issue. Finishes are finishes regardless the instrument. If I had any real concern, I'd be looking at the manufacturer's website, researching info on instrument finishes or even contacting a repairperson. Otherwise it's observing that a tuner left a mark on the headstock. I just don't find that very interesting or see how it's worthy of pages of discussion and not for the first time either. I'd like to see more discussions about actual mandolin playing but maybe that's expecting too much.

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Dobe, 

Mike Bunting

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## Mike Bunting

> Despite the flack I'll probably receive, I'm going to say this thread is a perfect example of why it's getting so hard to find any kind of meaningful discussion here. There's so much drivel to wade through. This, technically-speaking, isn't even a mandolin-related issue. Finishes are finishes regardless the instrument. If I had any real concern, I'd be looking at the manufacturer's website, researching info on instrument finishes or even contacting a repairperson. Otherwise it's observing that a tuner left a mark on the headstock. I just don't find that very interesting or see how it's worthy of pages of discussion and not for the first time either. I'd like to see more discussions about actual mandolin playing but maybe that's expecting too much.


You'll not be getting any flack from me, that's for sure.

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## multidon

> Despite the flack I'll probably receive, I'm going to say this thread is a perfect example of why it's getting so hard to find any kind of meaningful discussion here. There's so much drivel to wade through. This, technically-speaking, isn't even a mandolin-related issue. Finishes are finishes regardless the instrument. If I had any real concern, I'd be looking at the manufacturer's website, researching info on instrument finishes or even contacting a repairperson. Otherwise it's observing that a tuner left a mark on the headstock. I just don't find that very interesting or see how it's worthy of pages of discussion and not for the first time either. I'd like to see more discussions about actual mandolin playing but maybe that's expecting too much.


So, mandolirius, at the risk of being accused of giving you "flack", I would humbly ask you to read the description of what the "General Mandolin Discussion" area is. According to those who run this site, it is for mandolin related discussions that don't fit in the other areas. My concern for the Snark tuners could have been voiced in equipment, but I didn't want to know about the tuners per se. It didn't fit in Builders and Repairs because I didn't want to fix the marks, I wanted to avoid them. And my biggest concern was the fact that this tuner is enthusiastically recommended by many members here. So I bought some. And found out that the manufacturer designs them to be clipped to the headstock and then says don't clip them to the headstock. Am I the only one who finds that strange? And where do we clip these tuners? On our MANDOLIN headstocks. Doesn't that make the discussion mandolin-related? Personally, I felt it belonged in this section. Seems to me like if it was in the wrong place, a moderator would have moved it. Isn't that what happens to threads that are posted in the wrong place?

You seem to only want discussions in this area to be about playing the mandolin. I perused the recent threads and, truth be told, most discussions are not related to actual playing. It is a general area that covers a wide variety of topics. For that reason I find it one of the most fascinating areas. But if there is a thread I don't find interesting, I simply don't participate in it. It seems that some of us have a different theory. We like to get on threads we don't particularly like and tell the people involved what they SHOULD be talking about. It really makes me wonder. If you don't like it, why chime in at all? Is it really worth the time and trouble? With 53 responses and counting, my original post must be interesting to somebody.

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Beanzy

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## greg_tsam

> But if there is a thread I don't find interesting, I simply don't participate in it.


Option 1




> It seems that some of us have a different theory. We like to get on threads we don't particularly like and tell the people involved what they SHOULD be talking about.


Option 2




> If you don't like it, why chime in at all? Is it really worth the time and trouble? With 53 responses and counting, my original post must be interesting to somebody.


It takes all kinds and the Cafe is full of all of them.  Mandolirius did attack this thread topic but I don't really see why it needs to get personal which is what it sounds like when you take offense to his attack.   :Grin:   Well, anyway, who am I to play the mediator/peacemaker?  Just my $0.02 and also my opinion and we all have them and know what they're worth.   

Carry On. 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## multidon

Greg, I don't mean to be personal at all. I am just against forum "police" in general and I get a little tired of it. If I am doing something wrong, let a moderator tell me so, not a self-appointed "policeman". If a topic does not get shut down or moved then it must be operating within the rules. And if it is operating within the rules then it is just as legitimate as anyone else's. And it is difficult not to take it personally when someone calls the thread you started "drivel". 

Again as the OP I am interested in anyone who has an opinion or viewpoint regarding my original post. I am not interested in anyone telling me I shouldn't be talking about it since obviously I and several others are. I think the title of my thread was very clear and self explanatory. I don't understand why anyone would even click on it in the first place if they thought the topic was "drivel". I feel I am not the one who started this. We were having a good and useful discussion, on topic, until the "police" showed up. Can we please get back to it?

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## Bob Clark

Hi Folks,

I have found this thread useful.  Here's how...

I've been using a Snark on two of my mandolins for quite a while now, with no problems at all.  I've just recently started using it on another, newly purchased mandolin (brand new).  Because of this thread, I had a close look at the headstock of all three and discovered that it is, indeed, marking my newest mandolin.  I'll make changes to keep that from happening.

If not for this thread, I'd not have noticed the marks it is making until they became much worse.  Because of this thread, I saw the damage and will now take steps to make sure that won't happen.  For this reason, I thank the OP and those who posted.  

Yet another useful thread on the Cafe.  This place is great!

Best wishes,   Bob

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## raulb

It is logical that any clip on tuner can damage a nitro finish if you leave it on a long time.  There is some solvent involved in their manufacture.  

Bear in mind, however, that nitro cellulose finishes are easily damaged.  It is advised, for example, that guitar players NOT put one of those clear, electrostatic pick guards on their guitars and leave them there any length of time (e.g. take them off when not playing the guitar).  There is the possibility of static electricity with a synthetic material (such as the clear pickguard or tuner's pads), and that will damage nitro finishes (fear not, the problem does not exist with pickguards that are permanently attached to the instrument, only the removable ones).

Even your sweat while playing your instrument can and will damage the nitro finish.  This is why you MUST wipe down an instrument after you play it if it is finished in nitro, and NEVER, EVER use a solvent based cleaner. 

That having been said, use the Snark, or any other turner, on your nitro finish but take it off when you put the instrument away.  I have both a Martin and a Dobro mandolin, both with nitro finishes.  I also have 3 Snark tuners.  Nevertheless, I remove the tuners whenever I put the mando(s) in its case, or even if I put it aside for any length of time.  I also make sure that the pads do not cover the logo decals, just in case.  Plus, the case where I have the Dobro has no storage, so I keep the tuner in the bag in which it (the Snark tuner) came, so that the tuner will not contact the mando's finish directly.

In short, use the tuner.  Just don't leave it attached when you are not playing the instrument.

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## Bob Clark

Hi Raulb,

Good advice.  But I am seeing damage on that one instrument despite having the Snark on the mandolin only when tuning.  It's on, tune, off.  I don't even leave it on while I play (I find it distracting).  For that reason, I was really surprised to see the damage.  I'm now going to cover the pads with cloth, as others have suggested.

Bob

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## Ivan Kelsall

Bob - I had a look at my Weber yesterday to see if there were any marks on the headstock at all & i'm pleased to say that there weren't any. My Lebeda is varnished anyway,but that one seems to be totally impervious to any marking at all. I've only had my Snark for a few months & usually only use it right after re-stringing & to check the tuning prior to having a practice.So, the chances are that i've not used it for long enough to show any signs of marking 'yet'. But it's good to be made aware of the possibilities. If the makers were _aware of the possibility_ of the tuners marking an instrument enough to give a warning,surely they could also have used a more chemically inert material for the pads.They should have realised that 'possibly' more often than not,players leave the tuner on the headstock whilst playing, & that can add up to a great number of hours. Personally i'll keep a look out for any markings on my Weber headstock. If i see any,i'll remove the rubber pads & replace them with natural cork ones,a material that i can buy at my local handicraft store,
                                                                         Ivan

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## AlanN

> And found out that the manufacturer designs them to be clipped to the headstock and then says don't clip them to the headstock. Am I the only one who finds that strange?


Nope, indeed is a freaky thing.




> If the makers were _aware of the possibility_ of the tuners marking an instrument enough to give a warning,surely they could also have used a more chemically inert material for the pads.They should have realised that 'possibly' more often than not,players leave the tuner on the headstock whilst playing, & that can add up to a great number of hours. If i see any,i'll remove the rubber pads & replace them with natural cork ones,a material that i can buy at my local handicraft store,


Cogent points, as usual, Mr. Handyman.

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## AlanN

I don't leave it on, but I'm glad some pickers do...makes it easy for me to bum one if I need it. I just reach over and grab.....

And to the idea that this thread is lame...it ain't. With the spate of clip-on tuner use, it's a very timely topic. If you want to read about how to play a mandolin, there are other places to go.

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## Robert Mitchell

Ivan,, I'd not use cork as I've seen damage to the finish
when cork on used on armrest clamps. Excessive pressure
is also a culprit. I use the finished side of thin dearskin now.
I'll be doing this on the snark.
Regards from Rivendell!

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## Bob Clark

Hello Ivan and Others,

It's not my Webers that are being marked.  They are absolutely clean after many Snark uses (thank goodness!).  It's my new Crystal Forest.  I wonder if it's because the Crystal Forest's finish is new and not completely hardened.  

As for the cork idea, I understand the concerns about the processed cork sheets.  But how about carving little 'shoes' from wine bottle cork (which I have lots of   :Grin: ).  I'm not talking about engineered cork bottle closures (colmated, agglomerated etc.) but high-grade natural cork.  Sort of like making little wooden clogs.  If I can get to it, I'll experiment this weekend and report back.

Best wishes,

Bob

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## Alan Lackey

This sounds like there is a business opportunity for someone to make replacement, finish-compatible pads for clip on tuners.  There are accessories for everything else these days....

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## Dennis Peacock

The hard part of all this is understanding the various finishes. No, I don't mean on each mando.....I mean understanding each type of finish and their properties as well as time to totally cure. I've been a woodworker and furniture re-finisher for over 40 years now. I understand that I don't clip on tuners on my furniture..but...you still have to understand finishes for repairs as well as what to apply and how for new furniture pieces. At a very basic level:

Nitrocellulose Lacquer is a chemical type finish. Each subsequent coat applied to the previous coat will melt into the previous layer by about 50% making the new finish thicker and can easily be refinished or touched up without it looking like a patch. This is because the finish becomes one solid clear coat.

Varnish / Polyurethane is a mechanical type finish. Each subsequent coat applied to the previous coat requires sanding of the previous coat to allow the new coat to have something to grab a hold of. This creates micro-layers of finish and is why varnish finishes are more difficult to patch/fix because you will always be able to see the fix. I have a fix on my kitchen table and no matter what I did to fix the bad spot with varnish....it left a spot that could be seen with a trained eye.

Shellac is a chemical type finish. Much like lacquer finishes, shellac is a chemical finish and each subsequent coat applied does melt some of the previous finish making it a single thicker coat of finish as well. Shellac is a natural finish product, made from secretions from the Lac bug, refined, made into flakes and sold as an alcohol soluble finish.

Out of all the finishes, shellac and lacquer are the easiest to repair and blend without the repair ever being seen. Varnish finishes can be patched/fixed but extreme care must be taken to blend the fix in well so that the patch will be well hidden. Each typical finish takes about 7 weeks to cure. The old rule of thumb is....if you can smell the finish? It is still curing.

I'm not a know-it-all by any means....but I have studied and worked with multiple types of finishes since age 13. I may have not explained it all well or clear enough here....but I've at least given you enough to get ya started.  :Smile: 

My suspicion is that the chemicals put into the rubber pads can have an affect on your finish over time. It also could be that the tension applied to a wood spot can cause a slight impression as the finish or the wood may be soft enough there to give way to the focused pressure applied by the tuners spring-loaded foot.

Ok...I'm done.  :Whistling:

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multidon

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## Charley wild

> I don't leave it on, but I'm glad some pickers do...makes it easy for me to bum one if I need it. I just reach over and grab.....
> 
> And to the idea that this thread is lame...it ain't. With the spate of clip-on tuner use, it's a very timely topic. If you want to read about how to play a mandolin, there are other places to go.


Agreed. Last time I checked this is a forum for all things mandolin and clip on tuners have taken the world by storm so a timely topic I'd say. I take my Snark off after tuning and haven't had any problem so far but it's worth it to me to keep and eye on it. Normal wear is fine but I don't promote it.

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## multidon

I believe I have solved the problem to my satisfaction. I keep a cotton flannel cleaning cloth in my case at all times. A single layer between the headstock and the Snark clamp does not affect the performance at all. For me this will work. 

I appreciate all of you who chimed in and supported me in regards to the thread being useful and appropriate. I couldn't help but notice that after I started getting supportive posts the "police" have gone away. 

As to the issue of being overly sensitive about cosmetic issues: have you ever noticed how much easier it is to sell a mandolin that you can honestly say is in mint condition? Isn't there a reason for that? I like to keep my instruments as good looking as possible and try hard to minimize wear and tear. There are all kinds of mandolinists. Some of us love near mint condition; others love the scrapes, dings, scratches, wear spots, and so on from honest play wear. Both sides are valid; I don't think one side should deride the other. It all depends on what floats your boat. Think about this though: If you owned and played a 200,000 Loar would you think waffle shaped electronic tuner marks all over the headstock would be ok? Really? Seriously?

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## mandolirius

"I couldn't help but notice that after I started getting supportive posts the "police" have gone away."

I wasn't going to reply to your post  complaining about a site "policeman", since you seemed to be taking it so personally. The truth is my post was mainly a comment about the state of the site in general. This thread, and your post that started it, were not the main point. I cite it merely as one example (among many) of the type of thing that seems to occupy the minds of many who post here. 

As for being a policeman, I disagree. I made a comment, which is fair game as I understand it.

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## shortymack

A discussion wouldnt be a discussion without a discussion. (Hey that sounded yogi bera like)  :Laughing:

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## allenhopkins

I've been using red Snarks for about a year now, and haven't noticed that they're marking the finishes of the instruments.  I beat the (_solid waste noun removed_) out of my instruments, so a mark on the headstock would probably slip by unnoticed.

Problem with making a finish-specific comment, is that I have such a bewildering variety of instruments, vintage anywhere from 1860-ish to the present, that I honestly have *no idea* what the different finishes are!  Varnish, lacquer, poly, even just plain ol' paint -- could be any one on any instrument.  So suggestions to avoid one, while another's OK, won't be too helpful to me.

Finally, this thread has gone longer than I expected, but I don't see a need to criticize anyone for starting it or contributing to it.  Critiquing others' choice of topic, or expressed opinion, only has the effect of stretching out the thread, anyway.  I skip many threads, read others without chiming in, and try to concentrate on those topics and discussions, to which I think I have something to add.  Not to sound sanctimonious, but though others may not share my interests or perspectives, they have as much right as I to blather on about their stupid...no, wait, I'm losing it here...

Peace, bro's.

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multidon

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## multidon

Allen you are spot on as usual. The forum guidelines tell us to be "polite and courteous" at all times. Where I made my mistake is that in my displeasure I forgot a very important lesson I learned from my mother; that to point out the discourtesy of others is to be discourteous yourself. I was in a poor mood-no excuse of course- and that post just rubbed me the wrong way at the wrong time. For those who were distracted and or disturbed by that side exchange I apologize for part in it.

As opposed to those who see much wrong with this forum in the form of so much "drivel to wade through" I on the other hand love this site very much and I have learned so much from it words fail me. I appreciate it as is. It is not perfect obviously. There is always room for improvement. One thing that in my opinion would go a long way toward that improvement is to emulate Allen. After reading probably hundreds of his posts I would call him a model Care member. What he says he does I couldn't have put any better. Skip the posts that don't interest you- read the ones that are interesting- and post only if you have something to contribute. It boggles my mind to think what a paradise this forum would be if everyone just followed those guidelines instead of posting with alternate agendas.

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allenhopkins

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## Tom Haywood

I posted some time ago that the red Snark pressed through the Behlen violin varnish finish on mine after 30 minutes on the headstock. The varnish was two years old at the time. Since then, I put it on to tune and take it off. Haven't noticed any additional problems in about a year now.

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## Dobe

Sort of a related question; I'm a take off guy and haven't had any finish issues, but lots of folks seem to be in the leave on camp. Is it just me, or do you notice alot of people leaving them turned on after tuning?  It bugs the hell out of me. I used to continually tell them they left their tuner on, so as to save the battery. But it's been happening so much I've just given up. Let em' buy new ones. Pet peeves can be persnickety things !

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## woodwizard

> It is true that mandolins will start to look used if you use them.


That is so true  :Smile:

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## mandolirius

> Allen you are spot on as usual. The forum guidelines tell us to be "polite and courteous" at all times. Where I made my mistake is that in my displeasure I forgot a very important lesson I learned from my mother; that to point out the discourtesy of others is to be discourteous yourself. I was in a poor mood-no excuse of course- and that post just rubbed me the wrong way at the wrong time. For those who were distracted and or disturbed by that side exchange I apologize for part in it.
> 
> As opposed to those who see much wrong with this forum in the form of so much "drivel to wade through" I on the other hand love this site very much and I have learned so much from it words fail me. I appreciate it as is. It is not perfect obviously. There is always room for improvement. One thing that in my opinion would go a long way toward that improvement is to emulate Allen. After reading probably hundreds of his posts I would call him a model Care member. What he says he does I couldn't have put any better. Skip the posts that don't interest you- read the ones that are interesting- and post only if you have something to contribute. It boggles my mind to think what a paradise this forum would be if everyone just followed those guidelines instead of posting with alternate agendas.


I couldn't disagree more. One man's drivel may the next's valuable tidbit but I don't think it's being discourteous to make the comment. And I remind you that I didn't say this thread is not particularly aggregious in itself, nor probably is any particular thread and certainly not any individual poster. I took the opportunity to express a viewpoint. It's not a matter of attacking the thread topic or you...none of that is in my original post. I don't want to get into dueling alternate agendas, but I do feel some things have been attributed to me that I didn't actually say.

As for the site, I love it too. But it's not the place it was when I first joined. Better in some ways, not so much in others. And all that is merely opinion, so take it for what it's worth.

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## tburcham

> Like most things I buy, I immediately threw the instructions away and promptly left my Snark tuner on the headstock. The mark it left on my headstock was annoying but not unbearable. Next trip to the drugstore I picked up a packet of Dr. Scholls moleskin, a fleshcolored material with adhesive on the back. I think it's for corns or bunyons.
> 
> No further headstock marks. I've since put in the sides of capos (used on guitars only) and still have more than a life times supply.


Tom,

Thanks for the Moleskin idea.  I converted all my red Snarks last night and they work like a charm.  I actually took the small rubber pad off and applied the Moleskin to the base plastic.  On the upper U-shaped portion of the ribbed rubber grip, I affixed the Moloeskin to the ribbed rubber grip.  Seems to be adhering well.

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## multidon

Mandolirius, I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to you publicly on this forum. I behaved badly because your post caught me at a bad time and I was in a bad mood. That is meant as a reason, not an excuse. What I should have done with your post is simply read it and moved on. Another thing my mother taught me is that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. She also told me to make sure my words are soft and sweet, because someday I might have to eat them. Wise woman, my mother. I should remember her lessons better.

In the future, if we encounter each other posting in the same thread, I promise to give your posts whatever attention I feel they deserve, and act accordingly.

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## mandolirius

> Mandolirius, I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to you publicly on this forum. I behaved badly because your post caught me at a bad time and I was in a bad mood. That is meant as a reason, not an excuse. What I should have done with your post is simply read it and moved on. Another thing my mother taught me is that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. She also told me to make sure my words are soft and sweet, because someday I might have to eat them. Wise woman, my mother. I should remember her lessons better.
> 
> In the future, if we encounter each other posting in the same thread, I promise to give your posts whatever attention I feel they deserve, and act accordingly.



Ha! Good one. 

As I said, nothing about this thread or your OP bothered me. I just used it as a springboard to a more general comment and was feeling a bit bad that you were upset. Cetainly not my intention.

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## Johnny60

I recently bought a red snark, and the instructions basically say that it can react with varnish, poly and nitro!  That's virtually ALL bases covered!

It does, however, come with a little cotton-type bag, so I simply fold the bag over the top of the headstock, then clamp the tuner to the headstock with the bag acting as a buffer between the pads and the wood.  Tune up, then remove it.  No problems.

If you don't have a bag, then a cotton hanky would do just as well.

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## greg_tsam

> Another thing my mother taught me is that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. She also told me to make sure my words are soft and sweet, because someday I might have to eat them. Wise woman, my mother. I should remember her lessons better.


I wish I did this more often.

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## Bob Clark

In the November issue of _The Mandolin Journal_ (Newsletter of the Classical Mandolin Society of America) that just arrived in my mail today, there is an article by David Cohen entitled _Finish Damage from Plasticisers_ that does a good job of explaining this problem.    In the article, he is specifically addressing the use of drawer liner mesh to stabilize mandolins (presumably bowlbacks) in the players' lap, but the issue is the same one this thread is discussing.  Just thought I'd point it out in case anyone is looking for a little more information.

Best wishes,  Bob

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