# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Grover? Gotoh? Schaller? Golden Age Mandolin Tuners?

## Narayan Kersak

Grover? Gotoh? Schaller? Golden Age Mandolin Tuners?

I'm looking for tuners in the price range of the above mentioned brands.

Are these good tuners?  Do they hold up and their tuning well?

Any thoughts on one over the others?  or any other brands around that price range, or even slightly more that you'd advise checking out?

It's for an octave mandolin.  Looking for F style tuners.

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## fscotte

I like grovers.

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## multidon

Never used Schallers. Grover 309's are fantastic. "Economy" Grovers, not so much. Gotohs don't impress me either. The Golden Ages are pretty nice. I could go with either those or the Grovers.

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## amowry

I wish the new Golden Age tuners were available with gold plating. If they were I'd be tempted to use them on all my instruments. Maybe if I keep bugging Stew-mac  :Wink:

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## Narayan Kersak

hey andrew!  good to hear from you. you ever get any of my emails?

so the golden age, you like?  they hold everything together?  maybe you can remind me the tuners you put on my mando when you built it!  : )

the grover 309's are they in the 40-60 dollar range?

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## Narayan Kersak

what might be the difference between the golden age and the grover 309's except for looks?  The price is the same.

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## Cheryl Watson

While I really like the Golden Age tuners, which I have on one mandolin, the Grover 309s turn smoother than any tuner I have ever used for mandolin.  I had an Arches FT-F with the Grover 309s (A-style tuners).  The Grover 309s are a tiny bit longer in overall length (base plate) so I would check first to see if they would be too long on your mandolin's headstock.  I don't know about longevity, however.

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## Narayan Kersak

Ok. It's down to the grover 309's or the Golden Age Stew Mac.  Aside from the 37 cent price difference, is there that big of a difference other than looks?

Also, why are waverly's so darn expensive?  Are they plated in gold?  Seems like there'd be a cutoff to expenses on a simple crank device like a tuner.

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## George R. Lane

The Waverly's are individually machined and that requires a lot of time. And times means money. I have the 309's on both of my Webers and they turn buttery smooth.

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## j. condino

Once you step over to the dark side, you'll find that you are only limited by your imagination in terms of how much precision, how beautiful an aesthetic, and how much money you can spend for tuning machines. This set from Niccolo Alessi is a nice example. They were worth every penny and the year and a half wait while communicating in two different languages.On the other end of the spectrum, I use the Schaller F style regularly and re-machine them when the wait or price range is not appropriate for custom machines.

j.
www.condino.com

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Lane Pryce, 

Mandolinshockandawe, 

Rick Jones

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## baptist mando55

I dont really understad why everybody stresses over tuners.My lowly Eastman has shallers never ever had trouble Had a washburn no trouble Aria Pro II no trouble Yard sale mandos no troble.This is a big disscussion on the martin forum Ive just never had trouble. Hd28 with  Grover Rotomaticc no trouble Custon Rushing hog dred with gotohs no problem Yamaha with yamahs no problem. Never had trouble staying in tune but if i could just play like i want to

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yankees1

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## John Kelly

I have recently used Rubner tuners on a couple of instruments, one a bouzouki, the other a mandolin, and I like them a lot.  Cost me £34 over here in Scotland, whatever that is in dollars.  Smooth to use and well finished.  The mando ones I got in brass finish to go with the brass tailpiece I had fitted.

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## terzinator

> I dont really understad why everybody stresses over tuners.My lowly Eastman has shallers never ever had trouble Had a washburn no trouble Aria Pro II no trouble Yard sale mandos no troble.This is a big disscussion on the martin forum Ive just never had trouble. Hd28 with  Grover Rotomaticc no trouble Custon Rushing hog dred with gotohs no problem Yamaha with yamahs no problem. Never had trouble staying in tune but if i could just play like i want to


 I think you hit it on the head... you haven't had problems, so you don't understand why people stress out about it... 

I've had good and bad... tuners that slip, tuners that bind, tuners that feel crappy in my fingers, tuners that look cheap, tuners where the button has cracked and fallen off... I've also had some that have had NO PROBLEMS whatsoever.

Part of the issue is that it's not standard, like a set of tires that come in a thousand sizes for every application. Each mfr has a slightly different configuration with respect to shaft spacing, screwhole location, gear configuration, etc... And some swaps are easier than others.

Probably more like when you upgrade your car stereo. You might be happy with AM, or the slightly better FM, but there are others that appreciate HD Radio. And then, where some replacement units fit directly, some require minimal modifications, and some are just not worth the hassle because it would require too much drilling and cutting and retrofitting.

You mention the Martin forum. Definitely a place to discuss tuner swaps! On my Martins, I've got Waverlys. One set was stock (on my D-18VS), one set the previous owner installed (000-18GE), and one set I put on after replacing the cheapy-looking pearl-knobbed stock units with Grovers. Grovers worked just fine, but I LOVED the look of a certain set of brass Waves with Snakewood knobs. (000-15S, and the tuners were worth 1/3 the cost of the guitar!) 

So, it's form, function, aesthetic, feel, etc... you name it. So many reasons to swap out tuners.

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Paul Statman

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## amowry

Hi Ryan-- I don't think I have received any emails from you in a while. Maybe something's up with one of our accounts? Your mando has Schallers, that I reworked to make them turn smoother.

I haven't tried the 309s yet, but I'm sure they are smoother than the Golden Age. Grover's just have a few cosmetic differences that I've never been into, and I like the Golden Age's more traditional look.

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Paul Statman

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## M. Macica

Quick note On the schallers.You can improve on them if you have eny problems with strings going out of tune. There is a plastic and metal spacer underneath the main gear of each tuner. What you can do is add another plastic spacer to it. This will create more friction the tighter you tighten the screw.The more friction and less slipping.Kind of like what Waverlys do.

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## Verne Andru

I've used Grovers. Very nice machines.

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## Handy Hummingbird

> Quick note On the schallers.You can improve on them if you have eny problems with strings going out of tune. There is a plastic and metal spacer underneath the main gear of each tuner. What you can do is add another plastic spacer to it. This will create more friction the tighter you tighten the screw.The more friction and less slipping.Kind of like what Waverlys do.


I know this is travelling back in time slightly but wanted to know whether it was common practise to add another plastic spacer in this fashion, or whether it was only advised if problems were being experienced with slipping.  I'm replacing my Schallers imminently and wondered if I should add spacers to all of them?

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## peter.coombe

I have never added another plastic spacer on Schallers and I have been using them for 20years.  Never ever have had any problem with slippage, and have never needed to replace a set.  They don't hold a candle to Waverlies or Alessi, but cost a lot less.

Just received a set of golden age tuners from Stew Mac.  The look is certainly right, they look almost identical to a set of vintage tuners I have in the worn out spare parts drawer.   However, I was somewhat disappointed with them.  Not smooth and some inconsistency in stiffness.  The black plastic buttons are a bit cheesy and can be improved with a bit fine sanding and polishing.   Have fiddled with them and they are improved, but not sure I would buy another set unless the vintage look was important.

I have been using Rubners on my flatttops and have been quite impressed with these tuners.  They are made in the old East Germany part of Germany and there is a large range of options available, some of which are rather nice (e.g. Ebony or Rosewood knobs, black nickel).  However, I would recommend the teflon bearings, they are much smoother with this option.  Quality is very consistent (unlike Schaller), and price is good if you buy a few sets direct from the factory, and are prepared to wait for them to be manufactured.  Only problem is they live in the dinasaur age and don't take credit cards or Paypal so bank charges are an issue.

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Paul Statman

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## Jim Hilburn

There was a time Schallers were state of the art and were found on almost all new mandolins and used as replacements when vintage went caput. That's why the shafts are so long on the F's, to make sure they fit anything. Too bad they haven't kept up with the times.

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Paul Statman

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## Handy Hummingbird

As a general note, if there was the option of adding the exact same plastic spacers from an older set of Schallers to a new would this improve performance, even if not strictly necessary?

(The older set broke, hence parts going spare)

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## sblock

Some potentially good news:  I was in touch with the Rubner folks by email today.  Mr. Kent George wrote to tell me that they would be introducing tuners for F5-style mandolins within the next three weeks.  Currently, they only make tuners for A-style mandolins.

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## Perry Babasin

Rubner is currently offering A and F style tuners on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rubner-Mando...item43e09601fb

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## Mike Arakelian

$78.00 is a very good price for these engraved Rubner tuners.  I have these on my Black Tie and am very happy not only with their looks but also their performance.

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## mandobassman

There have been a few discussions here about stiffness problems with the Golden Age tuners.  I had a set on a previous mandolin and, while they looked great and held tune just fine, they were very stiff to turn.  I thought maybe they would get better after a while but they never did for the 5 years I had them.  It didn't bother me enough to replace them, but they were much stiffer than any other tuner set I've used.

If money wasn't an issue, I'd go with Alessi in a heartbeat.  But if I were buying now, I'd be real tempted to go with Rubner.  I've been hearing a lot of good comments about them and they look beautiful.

http://www.rubnertuners.com/mandolin-machines/

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atbuckner21

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## Ray(T)

I've expressed my personal opinion with respect to GA tuners elsewhere. I currently have mandolins with Alessi, Waverley, Robson, Schaller and Stew Mac Restoration tuners and the GAs don't even come close.

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atbuckner21, 

j. condino

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## Jay-bow

I know I'm digging up a bit of an old thread, but I recently purchased a set of Golden Age F-style tuners and found them overall a bit stiff as well, and I decided to use a technique that I normally do on new, stiff upright bass tuning machines. Before I installed them on the mando, I brush on a little lapping compound (1200 grit) and give them a spin with a power drill for a few minutes. That seems to induce just enough wear to help them break in and turn more smoothly. I then clean out the compound with window cleaner and hit the machines with just a touch of oil, that seemed to do it, we'll see how they perform.

I also found the Golden Age black plastic factory knobs very cheesy and cheap looking as well. I ordered the Waverley-style ebony knobs from Stew-Mac and they're a perfect fit, just a little tricky to get the originals off as they're on there snugly.

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## Martin Hense

> Grover? Gotoh? Schaller? Golden Age Mandolin Tuners?
> 
> I'm looking for tuners in the price range of the above mentioned brands.
> 
> Are these good tuners?  Do they hold up and their tuning well?
> 
> Any thoughts on one over the others?  or any other brands around that price range, or even slightly more that you'd advise checking out?
> 
> It's for an octave mandolin.  Looking for F style tuners.


Schaller will start the new GrandTune this year! They will be sooo good!!! Worth to wait a few months....

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## Jim Hilburn

I've been wishing Schaller would upgrade and update for a long time. Looking forward to them. The guitar tuners that they just introduced look great.

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## Martin Hense

> I've been wishing Schaller would upgrade and update for a long time. Looking forward to them. The guitar tuners that they just introduced look great.


and they are really good

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## MikeEdgerton

Martin, do you work for Schaller?

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lflngpicker

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## sblock

Mike Edgerton-- _Good guess!_  Martin Hense turns out to be a Schaller Specialist Dealer, according to their website, whose link is  *here*.  On the one hand, it's good to get some inside information from those in the know.  On the other hand, there should be full disclosure of personal financial interests, and a general avoidance of advertising by commercial suppliers in the Forum.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Mike Edgerton-- _Good guess!_...


It's a gift.

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lflngpicker

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## peter.coombe

> Schaller will start the new GrandTune this year! They will be sooo good!!! Worth to wait a few months....


That is good news.  I was hoping they would implement the technology in the GrandTune guitar tuners into their mandolin tuners.  It is about time they upgraded their mandolin tuners.  I can hardly wait to get a set.

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## Paul Hostetter

See below.

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## Paul Hostetter

> what might be the difference between the golden age and the grover 309's except for looks?  The price is the same.


A huge difference: one is worm-over and the other is worm-under. If you're making a mandolin from scratch, you need to lay out the headstock for one or the other. If you're retrofitting an existing mandolin, there's only one correct choice.

Stew-Mac's tuners, for some odd reason, are manufactured and shipped without a trace of lubrication. Once you hit them with some Tri-Flow and adjust the cog screw, they work great. Until then, they're stiff.

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lflngpicker

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## HoGo

> Stew-Mac's tuners, for some odd reason, are manufactured and shipped without a trace of lubrication. Once you hit them with some Tri-Flow and adjust the cog screw, they work great. Until then, they're stiff.


Another reason is that thay are plated all over which adds material and stiffens the gears. Once the plating wears off they are much better. Using lapping compound and turning them with electric screwdriver is good way to get them perfectly smooth. That's what Mike Kemnitzer was doing with Schallers on his builds.

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Gasawdust

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## peter.coombe

Just confirmed from the horses mouth (Schaller in Germany).  They will be offering mandolin tuners with their GrandTune technology in the European autumn.  They are already in production.

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## DataNick

> Mike Edgerton-- _Good guess!_  Martin Hense turns out to be a Schaller Specialist Dealer, according to their website, whose link is  *here*.  On the one hand, it's good to get some inside information from those in the know.  On the other hand, there should be full disclosure of personal financial interests, and a general avoidance of advertising by commercial suppliers in the Forum.


I know Martin as the _Happy Turtle Picks_ guy

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## peter.coombe

Also just confirmed by Schaller Germany, they will be offering Perloid, Galalith or Ebony knobs with their GT tuners.

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## Paul Hostetter

> There have been a few discussions here about stiffness problems with the Golden Age tuners.  I had a set on a previous mandolin and, while they looked great and held tune just fine, they were very stiff to turn.  I thought maybe they would get better after a while but they never did for the 5 years I had them.  It didn't bother me enough to replace them, but they were much stiffer than any other tuner set I've used.


The Stew-Mac tuners inexplicably are shipped without a trace of lubrication, and with the cog screws overtightened. Once you deal with those two issues, they work great. Assuming the holes in the headstock aren't causing friction problems because the spacing is off.

In fact, nearly any commercially available tuner is going to work great if they're installed and set up properly, even Pings and bottom-tier Gotohs. People really stress too much about this tuner thing. 

Rubner and Alessi make nice machines, but they often look wrong on vintage American instruments. 

And for the record, it's impossible for gears to slip. Strings may slip for a variety of reasons, including bad installation and/or adjustment of the machines, crappy nut slots, and lack of lubrication in the machines. Back in the 1920s, Grover made guitar machines with a 5½:1 gear ratio and they could slip. You could see the button go round backwards as the string tension overpowered the machines. I've also seen 4:1 banjo tuners slip when used for guitar strings. But any machine with a gear ratio of 8:1 or better simply cannot slip. If you think they are, you're looking in the wrong place.

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DougC, 

Larry Simonson

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## John Ritchhart

Alex at Collings Guitar told me that Golden Age used to be called Elite which Collings used before switching to Gotohs. I'm talking mandolins here. Are Golden Age and Elite the same design or did it change when the name changed? On closer inspection and doing some on-line research these tuners on my MT2 O look to be Gotoh MA40's.

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## Br1ck

IMHO, it is very rare that a tuner will ever slip, even the cheapest. Strings can be incorrectly wound, nuts can grab strings, and saddles can too. All a better quality tuner can give you is smooth and pretty, which is reason enough to change them. But slipping? Look elseware.

The gears on my 1913 A1 have what seems like a quarter turn of gear slop, but when they have tension on them, they are solid.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Alex at Collings Guitar told me that Golden Age used to be called Elite which Collings used before switching to Gotohs. I'm talking mandolins here. Are Golden Age and Elite the same design or did it change when the name changed? On closer inspection and doing some on-line research these tuners on my MT2 O look to be Gotoh MA40's.


I seem to recall a problem with some Elites before the name disappeared from Stewmac's site and was replaced by the Golden Age tuners. Post a picture of your tuners if you want an identification.

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## John Ritchhart

2009 MT2O tuners. I believe they are Gotoh MA40's

Upon closer inspection the shifts are not the same length. MF40's? On an A model? I'm confused.

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## MikeEdgerton

They are definitely Gotoh tuners.

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## John Ritchhart

Thanks Mike.

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## MikeEdgerton

I believe the model number is Gotoh MA40-G but there is supposed to be another designation for the black buttons and I don't know what that is.

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## Charlie Bernstein

I've used Grover, Gotoh, and Schaller, and they're all good. Each has its fans. Don't know anything about Golden Age except that it's a silly name.

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## William Smith

Golden Age makes some fine vintage replacements for your old Gibson's! They just need to start making the late 20's-early 40's bump end, worm over gear mandolin tuners! They already have the bump end "plain and engraved" for guitars. I have them on some old Gibson's and they work great, no problems yet.

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Brian Ebie

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## amowry

It's odd that the shafts appear to be different lengths, but I'd wager that the end buttons just aren't pressed on all the way. They look like standard Gotoh A-model tuners.

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## John Ritchhart

Andrew they screw onto the end of the shafts and I've checked the tightness of the screws so I think the shafts are different lengths. Having said all that they work well and I'm happy with how they look on this model.

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## John Ritchhart

Here's the rest of it. Great for Irish/Old Time.

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## pops1

I think they need to be different length as the headstock curves. Looks like the space between the headstock and the tuner buttons is the same on all. Most A's have a straight headstock, not curved like this one.

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## amowry

Interesting, I suppose Collings might special-order them from Gotoh with different shaft lengths, though I'd find that somewhat surprising. They might have also put a small spacer in the holes in the two end buttons so they don't get pulled in as far by the screws.

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## amowry

I looked at photos of Collings headstocks online, and I found several that appear to have different lengths like yours, and several that appear to have shafts of the same length. I've worked on a lot of Collings but I'd never noticed that before. I'm sure either one would work fine on your mando, if that's what you're wondering. Gotohs are better than the Elite or Golden Age tuners, IMHO.

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MikeEdgerton

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## MikeEdgerton

> It's odd that the shafts appear to be different lengths, but I'd wager that the end buttons just aren't pressed on all the way. They look like standard Gotoh A-model tuners.


I didn't even notice that. I wonder if you could take a hair off the middle two shafts with a grinder and still get the buttons on firm but farther down?

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## HoGo

> I didn't even notice that. I wonder if you could take a hair off the middle two shafts with a grinder and still get the buttons on firm but farther down?


That's what I was thinking about.

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cayuga red

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## John Ritchhart

Actually its the top and bottom that are longer shafts needed because of the shape of the headstock. Its fine as is. Its just interesting how its designed.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Actually its the top and bottom that are longer shafts needed because of the shape of the headstock. Its fine as is. Its just interesting how its designed.


The effect is the same, it's just easier to remove some than to add some and the posts are plenty long. The next time I end up with an A style mandolin family instrument that has any curve to the sides of the headstock I might try this.

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## Brian Ebie

Agreed.  I need a set for my '27 H4.  The second D string tuner is nearly impossible to turn at pitch.  Feels like you're going to twist the button off.  No one seems to be able to solve that one tuner's problem?

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## BeanJean

I need a set of tuning machines.  Folks in this thread like Grovers 309s.  Do people still have a high opinion of them?

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cayuga red

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## Rdeane

I have Gotohs on my Collings, but I prefer the Grover 309s. They are a bit easier to tune and hold tune beautifully. If you want to change the tuner buttons, it's easier to find replacements for Gotohs, though. It's hard to find ebony or black Grover replacement buttons.

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## pops1

> I didn't even notice that. I wonder if you could take a hair off the middle two shafts with a grinder and still get the buttons on firm but farther down?


You may have to also shorten the screw so it doesn't bottom out. Or not.

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## Bob Buckingham

Grover 309's get my vote.

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## Paul Statman

Rubner are making a comeback bid in an attempt to fill the gap between 'budget' and 'deluxe' tuners. Recovering from their fire damage, I am informed that they are on track to release their all new worm-under configured tuners this summer. 
Here's a preview from their site (NFI) 
https://www.rubnertuners.com/new-page-1

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## Paul Statman

> 2009 MT2O tuners. I believe they are Gotoh MA40's
> 
> Upon closer inspection the shifts are not the same length. MF40's? On an A model? I'm confused.


The staggered length shafts are a Gotoh MF40 option that suits the Collings peghead.

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## amowry

Yes, I noticed that the late Paul Hostetter mentioned them on his site. I'm not sure where you can get them, though.

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## MikeEdgerton

> You may have to also shorten the screw so it doesn't bottom out. Or not.


Generally the holes go a bit farther but that's not a big deal either. It could be done if need be.

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## Paul Statman

> Yes, I noticed that the late Paul Hostetter mentioned them on his site. I'm not sure where you can get them, though.


From Gotoh direct via their site, with a minimum order requirement.

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amowry

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