# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  Peghead Nation

## John Bertotti

Just curious what level of player you need to be to participate int he Marla Fibish Irish course on peghead nation? Anyone have any experience with it? This is interesting to me because of the amount of travel I do. No teacher of anything here will really work with me much. Thanks all!

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## John Bertotti

Well, impatience got the best of me, ready or not here I come. Paid up for a year. I hope I'm not in over my head! Thanks all. Sorry to waste your time!

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## foldedpath

It won't be a waste of time if you come back to this thread and let us know how it's going!  :Smile: 

You're not alone in lacking any local source of instruction for something as specialized as Irish trad, so I'm sure people will be interested in this.

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John Bertotti

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## John Bertotti

Will do!

One things already, it is breaking me out of the DDD or DUDUDU routine!

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## Gary Leonard

As you already upped for a year, I will add my two cents worth. I think anybody who has the desire to play ITM can benefit from this course. The only pre-requisite is to be somewhat familiar with the mandolin. While it won't teach you basic mandolin techniques, it does start with some basic rhythms in celtic music. 

Keep the DDD right hand around, it can be another tool in the toolbox, you just have to find the right job for it. I was surprised to find a waltz, Spancil Hill that was all quarter and half notes. DUDU is still around of course, for all those reels.

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John Bertotti

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## John Bertotti

Going into theory farther then I thought it would but again that shouldn't surprise me and I need the knowledge so it's all good.

I've been trying to get a better grip on the circle of fifths and how people take a major scale then drop into a relative minor then seemingly wander all over the place then back to the relative minor and into the major again. I can't do that but I want to!

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## John Bertotti

Well, only a couple of lessons vids in but I got hung up on the first pattern she was doing. So I took a couple of days of using it to get to know it better. What didn't seem like a hard pattern turned out to be hard for me to maintain over a longer period of time. So far so good. It was a simple DU DU but the second down was a string below and the up on the original string. Why that messed me up I don't know. I have also found I am having a hard time playing my ups at a lower volume than my downs. I always tried to play them the same and hit both strings both way. I can honestly say if every lesson hones something for me it will be well worth it.

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## John Bertotti

I am still only in the third video. I have never done her rhythmic picking and it is kicking my butt! She has you keeping your hand going on 1/8th notes and for 1/4 notes you keep going. I unintentionally want to pause rather than have a ghost note, it is really throwing what little timing I had off! I see the value in learning it. I'm sure this is all very basic for you all but I promised updates and this is how it's going so far. URrrrggggg. I guess its metronome time and slow it way down until I can get it. Sorry just venting, I want to learn it. I want to learn it all. I want to learn it now.

What was that song? I want it all. I want it all. I want it all. I want it now.

as a side note can you belive Urrrrggggg wasn't caught by spell check or gramerly? I guess I spelled it correctly! :Mandosmiley:

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## Jill McAuley

Keep persevering with it John and it'll come to you! It'll also make a world of difference in the feel of the tunes you play. Practicing it just on an open string or when playing scales can help because that way you don't have the added variable of playing the tune AND trying to adapt to a new way of picking. Keep the progress reports coming!

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John Bertotti

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## Mandolin Cafe

Nice snippet of Marla playing on PHN's Instagram account that hit a few days ago.

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hank, 

Jill McAuley, 

John Bertotti, 

Simon DS

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## bigskygirl

Thanks for the update and the cool reminder of the Queen song.  I never got the hang of Irish picking and really don't play but one tune - Irish Washerwoman during St. Patrick's Day month...

In regards to Queen, I've been working on Bohemian Rhapsody from the video by Andy Wood...cool tune and really not too difficult, I'm almost to the end and then need to work on putting it all together...I love Queen!

Now, back to regularly scheduled programming...

Keep the updates coming, it's inspiring me to practice more...

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John Bertotti

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## John Bertotti

HAHAHA I was brain dead at the time I typed that, the group's name was l literally eluding me. I'll blame the cold medicine!
Thanks everyone!

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## THK

> Well, impatience got the best of me, ready or not here I come. Paid up for a year. I hope I'm not in over my head! Thanks all. Sorry to waste your time!


Marla does Skype lessons as well. As a going on 5 year student of hers via Skype, I can't recommend her enough. She is simply an amazing teacher.

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John Bertotti

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## John Bertotti

I might give that a shot at sometime but currently I am only
Just getting her ghost note lesson it’s only the third video, at least made some progress today. Ice storm no power generator and kerosene running to keep some heat bit cold but no frozen pipes! Nice to have acoustic instruments to play. And now plenty of time to practice!

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## John Bertotti

I have several different metronomes but learning to use the StroboplusHD was a bit confusing at first but worth it. I am now working very slowly but I am able to keep the hand going and ghost note if I pay very close attention. If my mind wanders even a bit I lose it. Then the creative words pop out.

THK thanks for piping up. Like I said I might try the skype thing someday but most people don't want to work with me because I have a very fluid schedule, which means if I want to do something sure as hell I will have to work. That's why the peghead nation was so appealing to me.

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## John Bertotti

Still working on the same lesson, getting that rhythmic picking and ghost notes going. I find the more I can hear it the better I understand it and now can do it very slowly.

But the big news is today, and I'm sure you all figured this out long ago, but it concerns pick grip and how it changes your techniques while picking. I put the TI Stark strings on my mandolin, didn't notice any volume change but wondered could I get louder. I have always had a really loose grip but to get double or more volume, I can with this instrument do that, I need a much firmer grip. I have only tried this on my pointy pick but it definitely changed the way I pick the strings. I got more volume it still sounded good but it was almost too loud for my ears. I was surprised I could get that loud. I also noticed the notes naturally had more initial attack and were a bit brighter. So I am working on a happy medium for my pick grip and string attack. I tend to play very quietly because I didn't want to disturb anyone around me, they really don't care if I play loud, and maybe some self-consciousness kept me quieter as well. I also think where I was playing limited my dynamics within a song a because I was soft enough that I could only get louder and stronger on my attack so I think a happy medium will allow me to either increase and now also give room to decrease my playing volume and attack as compared to before I could only go up.

Hope my rambles didn't bore you. I also hope it makes sense, let me know if I seem to be out in left field with my thought process please.

Thanks, everyone!

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## Al Trujillo

Marla is a good instructor and her course is a lot of fun.  As you’re already aware for $10 a month you can sign up for a second Peghead Nation course.  Take a look at Sharon Gilchrists beginning mandolin course. It’s well worth the money - two courses helps spread your time around so you won’t get bored with one genre.

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John Bertotti

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## Joe DiLorenzo

What is the name of that jig they are playing in that video? That was awesome!

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## John Bertotti

> Marla is a good instructor and her course is a lot of fun.  As you’re already aware for $10 a month you can sign up for a second Peghead Nation course.  Take a look at Sharon Gilchrists beginning mandolin course. It’s well worth the money - two courses helps spread your time around so you won’t get bored with one genre.


I have actually considered this and it looks like it will fill in the beginner blanks I still have.

Joe, I have no idea what the name of that song is but I bet someone here does.

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## BeachMando

> Still working on the same lesson, getting that rhythmic picking and ghost notes going. I find the more I can hear it the better I understand it and now can do it very slowly.
> 
> But the big news is today, and I'm sure you all figured this out long ago, but it concerns pick grip and how it changes your techniques while picking. I put the TI Stark strings on my mandolin, didn't notice any volume change but wondered could I get louder. I have always had a really loose grip but to get double or more volume, I can with this instrument do that, I need a much firmer grip. I have only tried this on my pointy pick but it definitely changed the way I pick the strings. I got more volume it still sounded good but it was almost too loud for my ears. I was surprised I could get that loud. I also noticed the notes naturally had more initial attack and were a bit brighter. So I am working on a happy medium for my pick grip and string attack. I tend to play very quietly because I didn't want to disturb anyone around me, they really don't care if I play loud, and maybe some self-consciousness kept me quieter as well. I also think where I was playing limited my dynamics within a song a because I was soft enough that I could only get louder and stronger on my attack so I think a happy medium will allow me to either increase and now also give room to decrease my playing volume and attack as compared to before I could only go up.
> 
> Hope my rambles didn't bore you. I also hope it makes sense, let me know if I seem to be out in left field with my thought process please.
> 
> Thanks, everyone!


Just a word of caution here, yes, a firmer pick grip can deliver more sound, but it is going to hinder you down the road. 

You should be delivering power to the string from your wrist, not your grip. I have been down this road. It is hard to correct.

Sharons course recommended above can help you get this right at the outset. Her lesson on left hand technique in the Intermediate course in particular completely changed the way I play and got me off a major plateau.

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John Bertotti

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## John Bertotti

Not to worry, I'm not death gripping the pick it was just an observation. I think I have found a happy medium of pick grip, still fairly loose, and volume. I am still altering it a bit with both grip and wrist. Maybe at some point, it will be all wrist. I will keep practicing. I did sign up for the second course, Sharon's as suggested. Thanks all!

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## Baron Collins-Hill

> What is the name of that jig they are playing in that video? That was awesome!


The tune is Anthony Frawley's.

Thanks,
Baron

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Joe DiLorenzo

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## John Bertotti

Well, I haven't hit the Irish course for a week, been trying to get through he Beginner one. So far so good. I give my self another week then jump back into the Irish one, that is what I want to really master.

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## John Bertotti

Well, hells bells! OK, that keeping the wrist moving and having ghost notes is a butt kicker. I did however finally got through it today for the first time. I didn't have the range of motion like Marla in the video but there was the continuation of motion ever so slightly so I was able to keep the proper picking stroke on the notes. So this morning I consider this a win. I never would have thought this seemingly simple exercise would have been so challenging! Part of it was the motion itself but also listening, ear training? Once I got the progression in my head it made a lot more sense. If any of this makes sense at all. I might just be typing and rambling.

FYI the beginner course hasn't exactly been a simple journey either, doing it all by ear has proved a big challenge as well but I notice my listening is getting more accurate so I imagine that is a win that if it continues to improve can only helo in the long run.

I don't know very many chords or chords shapes and will tackle some of these on the side because I can foresee their use but also because I am wondering just how many songs or tunes, whatever we call them, are being played and or composed from within a progression of chord shapes. Does that make sense? Like composing from within arpeggios. Is that even a thing?

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## foldedpath

> I don't know very many chords or chords shapes and will tackle some of these on the side because I can foresee their use but also because I am wondering just how many songs or tunes, whatever we call them, are being played and or composed from within a progression of chord shapes. Does that make sense? Like composing from within arpeggios. Is that even a thing?


It's a thing, but I believe it's more common for guitar players, and maybe piano players, to think this way about composition because so many notes are under your fingers. There is an entire genre of guitar music that used to be called New Age, or New Acoustic Fingerstyle, that sounds to my ears like most of the original tunes are composed that way. 

My personal view, having lived in that guitar fingerstyle world for years before getting into mandolin, is that it's not a great way to build a melody compared to "through-composing" a single melody line. 

If you're working through Marla's Irish course and that's the music you want to focus on, keep in mind that the vast majority of Irish trad tunes are composed on "linear" instruments like pipes, flutes, whistles, and fiddles. The players of these instruments aren't thinking in terms of melody within chord shapes, because chords just aren't available to begin with. The instruments can only play a single note melody line.* 

There will be implied chords running through the melody, but I think this idea of linear, "through-composition" explains why there are so many Irish trad tunes that are weird in their implied harmony. Minor and major feel can shift back and forth within a tune, or be completely ambiguous (hexatonic or gapped scale). It can drive guitar players crazy trying to accompany some of these tunes, hence the popularity of DADGAD tuning or other means to leave out the third interval in a chord. One of the things that attracted me to this music is how "non-chord based" it is, compared to Western folk and pop music.

* The Irish Harp is the exception of course, and it may explain why O'Carolan compositions sound so different from the dance tune repertoire composed on pipes, fiddles, and other linear melody instruments.

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John Bertotti

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## John Bertotti

It makes much more sense now, thanks for explaining it for me!

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## John Bertotti

Well, a bit surprised yesterday. I have been traveling and not practicing as I should, long drives, long hours in manufacturing plants working, and more drives to the next facility. So, I get online, I pull up a lesson in Irish and decide that since the vids are short I would go back a couple and brush up before moving on to the next. Only I find that at the end of one of them an entire bit I missed. So I went back and gave a watch to everything I did so far and realized there was quite a bit to be learned from it. As I progress through the lessons I can go back and readdress bits in each that maybe now make more sense or I am just more proficient at doing, well, worth the effort even though I get irritated it isn't all just sinking in and magically appearing at my fingers. hahaha


I also realized that I was trying to rush mu right hand. My fingers can keep up but not cleanly and my right hand as I pick up speed loses the pick stroke and I am left stumbling trying to get it all back in sync. So I assume it means I just need to slow down until it is flawless then and only then try to pick the speed up a bit, rinse and repeat.

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## John Bertotti

Can someone tell me when doing a lesson before moving on to the next should it be perfect? Or competent, I can after a quick review does one competently with few issues but not at full speed more just at the speed she teaches at. If I can do that I assume it is ok to move on to the next lesson? I tend to get hung up on perfection and if I don't think it was perfect I will keep with it for many months. I have had this issue in the past as well.

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## FredK

If I hung out on a lesson until perfection, I would never advance and would, ultimately, get discouraged. Too, it depends on the lesson. Perfection is elusive. I watch a lesson, then go back and take notes. After that comes practice to burn it into my head and work on muscle memory. It stays a part of my routine but I may move on and, at least, watch other lessons. You've got to find what works for you. Above all, stick with it. The old saying holds true, "Practice makes permanent" .

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John Bertotti

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## bigskygirl

I generally have 8-10 tunes in various stages of learning/reviewing/perfecting in rotation at any time - like Fred if I waited until they were perfect I'd still be on tune #1.  The fun thing about music is its not perfect - unless you're playing at Carnegie, etc.  Like any skill it is fine tuned over time and with repetition, many times learning something new helps with something you may already know, and vice versa.

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FredK, 

John Bertotti

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## Barry Canada

I have an old Doc Watson book with tunes along with short anecdotes about the tunes.
An interesting quote about the tune Deep River Blues states that it took the Doc 10 years before he felt comfortable enough with it  to play the tune in public!
Just enjoy every day you wake up along with every breath you take. its an ongoing journey with no fixed destination!
Best! :Mandosmiley:

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John Bertotti

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## John Bertotti

Had an interesting thought today. I have noticed I can't pick as quick as I once did. I also noticed I was getting my tip snagged on the strings more than I remember I used to. So I decided to try and play over the fretboard and sure enough, I had a lot of sewing machine going on too much verticle movement. So for about 20 minutes, I tried some exercises over the fret board. What a mess, to begin with, sounded like I was trying to send morse code but everything was spelled wrong. Towards the end of the 20 minutes and with slowing down the speed I played the exercises I was well on my way to playing cleanly over the fretboard, minimal tapping. I then tried a couple of the songs from the lessons and everyone was quicker and cleaner. I am very happy with this extra practice, especially if I can get these kinds of results so quickly! FYI might be something anyone could try to improve their right-hand technique. I see a lot of people that have scooped the fretboard on their F style mandolins and perhaps with more practice it wouldn't have been necessary, just a thought. Has anyone else tried practicing this way? Did you have similar results? I think all the extra verticle motion was why my pick felt like it was snagging and why I felt slower than I felt I should be.

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## John Bertotti

Well, perhaps I shouldn't revive my thoughts in this thread but I'm going to anyway. @ years into the Peghead Nation. I pay for two courses and haven't gotten through either. I got so focused on other projects and a bit dismayed at the inability to grasp a concept and technique in the Celtic course that I started a more beginner course, then didn't follow up with the needed practice. I am once again still focused on other projects but make time every day for the last couple of weeks to practice these courses as well and finally made it past my hurdles. Now the most important part is you have to be consistent and diligent about getting in and using the program! Watch the vids, rewind where needed, as much as needed, and practice. They really do work. I am upset with myself for not following through but sometimes life drags us away. I have made it a point that no matter what and even if it is only 15 minutes I get my practice in and it is working. Sometimes I miss a day but not often currently and sometimes I get 30 minutes or three or four 15 minutes breaks to dive in. Sometimes the short spurts seem more valuable than the longer ones. in the end anytime playing is better than no time playing. Early am thoughts thanks.

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## bbowdendds

Thanks for your input. Have been trying the course and know what you mean about rhythmic picking lesson. Keep us informed on your progress.

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## oldsoldier181

I currently work with an in person tutor, and admittedly dont always remember what I am taught. I have considered a PHN subscription, and I think I am going to pull the trigger on the beginner series one. I only really want to play Irish trad, and will look into that course later. I am still wrapping my head around music theory as well, so sometimes it feels like drinking from a fire hose  :Smile:

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