# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  Building ITM repertoire

## Jim Garber

I will be celebrating my 4th decade of playing fiddle and mandolin this month. I know -- I should be a much better player by now, but I figure I have a few more years left to work on it.  :Smile: 

I actually started learning Irish music when I first started and switched over to old time and other genres after a few years. I always loved Irish but didn't have the chops back then and figured I had to choose in order to become a moderately decent player.

A few months ago I started attending some Irish sessions near me lead by an excellent fiddler, Brian Conway. I have been to a bunch of those sessions. The upside is that the playing is excellent overall -- some seriously wonderful players, both young and old. The hard part is that the ITM tradition is to play medleys of tunes with each tune repeated only 2 or 3 times so it does not allow much time to learn on the fly. At the session I attend the tempi are rather reasonable -- I have heard that at other sessions the tunes are played at breakneck speed.

At old time sessions I lead or attend we almost never play medleys and end up playing the tunes for about 10 minutes straight with many repetitions. Even at std speed this allows even an intermediate player to pick up the tunes. This is the tradition of most OT sessions i have attended. 

In any case, I am a little overwhelmed but also energized by the prospect of learning a whole new repertoire of tunes with different nuances and rhythms (jigs and slip jigs, for instance). 

I try to get the tune names as often as I can at the sessions so I do have a list to work from for those. I have downloaded a bunch of those tunes from *thesession.org* but there are usually a bunch of versions and I can never tell which are the good ones.

I also have quite a few recordings including classic ones from yhears ago so can learn by ear from some of them as well as from youtube videos.

I did get a DVD set of Kevin Burke's (Homespun) which I learned a few tunes off of as well as some tunes I learned from Matt Cranitch's book. I plan to take some lessons with Brian Conway.

I also found an excellent free book online from the *Harp of Tara Kingston, Ontario*. Scroll down to the Download section of the page. You can download the whole book or parts of it. One part is the repertoire for slow sessions. The book includes some excellent background info for the tunes and the players of them. Having read thru quite a few tunes in the book, most are pretty presentable versions so I will prob use that as one of my main printed sources of tunes. I think many of the tunes are accurately transcribed as well.

There are a few slow ITM sessions somewhat near me (1 hour's drive) so I may try those out. I am a firm believer in immersing in a genre -- like learning a language, it works best for me.

I guess it is more my impatience to actually play this music, but also presented with a mass of tunes to learn and catch up on. On a positive note I notice that tunes I have in my head I can easily figure out on mandolin or fiddle.

Anyway, any other suggestions for repertoire building?

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Violingirl

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## Bertram Henze

> ...The hard part is that the ITM tradition is to play medleys of tunes with each tune repeated only 2 or 3 times so it does not allow much time to learn on the fly.


You're supposed to practise at home  :Wink: 
Players who are "quick to lift a tune" are very few and far between, nothing to shoot for in the beginning. This ability may come when you already play, say, 200 tunes - the high ratio of re-used phrases in Irish tunes will then give you a vague feeling of familiarity even with a completely unknown one. But until then, it's homework chores.

I recommend concentrating on really getting down one set of tunes at a time as played in your local session, rather than diluting resources over too many (there is a fiddler in our sessions who hardly can play one solid tune through and lead it, but he turns up every month with ten new ones he also cannot play; stubbornly he starts playing them anyway, hoping the others will pick up in time before he falls apart).

It's a long way, but it's also a scenic route.

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Jim Garber, 

Jim Nollman, 

jonny250

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## Randi Gormley

the comhaltas foin seisiun books are a good place to check out, too, since they come with CDs and a lot of their sets are some of the standards that other people play as sets. Interestingly enough, the Coleman (or Tarbolton) set -- the Tarbolton, Longford Collector and Sailor's Bonnet -- are pretty much played as is at any session I've attended. There was even a bumper sticker or T-shirt (or rumors of them) stating "Free the Tarbolton Three!" because they are usually kept as a set and that bothers some players.

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Violingirl

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, Bertram. I learned so many OT tunes over the years -- but that was over years. I am doing, more or less, what you say and, no, I don't expect to pick up all the tunes by osmosis. I think working on a set of tunes at a time is a good way. And practicing (or practising) at home is what I am doing. 

I will certainly remember this: "It's a long way, but it's also a scenic route." A good mottoo, indeed!!

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Ben Cooper

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, Randi. Yes, those books look good too, tho too many books spoil the musician -- I have learned that having accumulated a vast library of choro books -- yet another repertoire to tackle when I grow up!

Also, with the exception of Tarbolton, I guess the sets are variable depending on the session you attend. Except for the jig marathon roundrobin they seem to play mostly two tune sets at Brian's sessions with an occasional three-tune set thrown in when someone decide they want to add a tune.

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## Jim Abrams

Hi Jim,

One fun way to build repertoire for ITM would be to attend this summer's Catskills Irish Arts Week, July 13-19, in East Durham, NY. http://catskillsirishartsweek.com/    Accordion master Jimmy Keane will be teaching a class specifically on building tune repertoire.  Here's the class description:

*Accordionist Jimmy Keane, a six time All-Ireland champion, composer, and music collector will teach a tune intensive class open to all melody capable instruments.  Students should have a solid rudimentary understanding of their respective instruments and a basic knowledge of traditional Irish tunes and its many forms (jigs, reels, hornpipes, etc).  The classes will be taught by ear so please bring a recording device.  Don't worry --  students who have never learned by ear, were playing by ear after the first few tunes. The tunes will be played by Jimmy for students to record for future reference and practice, first at a regular pace then slowed down. Each tune will then be broken down in class and taught by ear in a phrase-by-phrase manner.  The tunes taught will range from some of Jimmy’s favorites, to unusual settings of more common tunes, to newly composed tunes within the traditional idiom. The overall aim is building repertoire (and having an enjoyable time during the learning experience)!*

I'll be attending the class with my mandolin and tenor banjo with the same goal in mind--to expand my tune repertoire.  Next year will mark the centennial of my grandfather serving as the grand marshal of the St. Patrick's Day Parade in New York City.  He was a flute player from Co, Roscommon.  I'm organizing a new marching contingent for next year's parade, which will be comprised of descendants of former grand marshals from past parades.  After the parade we'll host a party, which will involve music and a session etc.

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## Bertram Henze

> "Free the Tarbolton Three!"


I used to play a "customized" pair of Tarbolton and Mulqueens before I learned the other two - the other players always looked puzzled but followed.

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## zoukboy

Jim:

I would suggest you ask permission to record your session and/or ask one or two of the stalwarts to record a few dozen tunes for you. Then listen over and over, one tune (or set, if this session plays particular sets, not all of them do) at a time until you can _sing_ the melody along with the recording. 

At that point you'll have the tune in your head and should be able to play it. Also, you might consider at the time transcribing what you have learned in order to archive it. Writing it down after learning it aurally is a good way to complete the learning circle. Then you'll be well equipped to start the work of finding your own approach to the tune working from the basis of your session's setting.

If you are new to Irish fiddling I would definitely get some lessons from Brian - he can demystify the bowing. I have worked with several fiddle/mando players who have found it helpful to learn the tune first on the mando and then approach the tune on the fiddle already knowing where all the notes are.

I would suggest you avoid relying on any printed sources for learning session repertoire. If you were hours away from any decent sessions it might be different but since you are attending a great session already I think you would do well to let those musicians be your source.

Good luck!

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Jim Garber

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## Beanzy

It must be the wisdom of elders or something similar that led them to discover it, but I find sets of tunes work really well in threes. 
I've a rubbish memory but seem to be able to learn a set of tunes almost as easily as a single tune. It's really strange how that happens. It seems to me like it's something to do with our natural inclination to work with beginning-middle-end in stories or something like that. Anyway the bonus is if I learn a set I then can chop it up and extract the tunes fairly easily. If I learn a tune it just sits there on its own with no context to fit it in and I tend to forget I know the thing and it falls out of use.

Brains are weird things..... well mine is.  :Redface:

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Ben Cooper

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## neil argonaut

I'd tend to back up what Roger said about recording the session if folk allow it (which I'm sure they will), as that way you can get learning the tunes that they play - it can vary so much from session to session (and from week to week!); If after learning plenty of these you find yourself wanting to visit other sessions, one way to find out what tunes it is likely people will know is to go to the session.org, click on tunes and then popular tunes, and you will have them all listed in popularity, from 1 (drowsy maggie) to 12 272! (the election jig) , so you can work towards learning the top 10, then the top 100, and more or less all of these 100 if you played in a session at least someone will probably know it (just watch out, but, depending on the session, some of these might be deemed too popular or overplayed to play);

However, I wouldn't recommend learnign from the dots on the session unless you need to - i normally just use it to get the tuine name and some comments on it, then seek out recordings, or good versions on youtube, or such;

good luck

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, all, for the sage advice!

I was primarily a ear learner and do follow the singing suggestions. I tend to have tunes floating around in my inner ear/brain all day anyway -- the older Pipe on the Hob at this very moment. After playing classical mandolin for a number of years my reading has improved considerably  so I can easily use that as resource as well. I may very well try to record the session but it is usually pretty noisy with the bar crowd talking, laughing etc. Brian did run a short-lived session right in my town which did get me going. I should have recorded those tunes since it was pretty quiet in that bar -- it was a Sunday afternoon.

Anyway... there is a ITM slow session about and hour or so drive from me which I want to attend tonight. It sounds like a good group of players getting together to work on repertoire. I did a bunch of driving last night but might have the energy to do it again tonight for a good reason.

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## xiledscot

Hello Jim

I think we are of similar vintage,and as such,I have complete sympathy for the task,that you have set yourself.
Tunes come and Tunes go,some I have played regularly for thirty odd years and some are forgotten,until something sparks the old grey matter in the memory bank,and then the whole learning process starts again. As you say "my impatience to actually play this music, but also presented with a mass of tunes to learn and catch up on"
I found that I had to be very selective and learn/relearn one or two at a time .
I now have a list of 30 -40 sets of tunes (two or three in each set) that I play regularly.
Over time some are replaced and so it goes on.
I have to say that playing two or three tunes in a set is not as easy as it sounds.Finding the right mix is not easy and I have heard some awful tune selections.
I rarely attend large sessions.I find that I get very little from them.Five or six players of reasonable ability is sufficient,and for me,much more rewarding.
There is another issue here.Trying to play Mandolin,Fiddle and Tenor Banjo to all of the tunes.Not enough hours in one day.
In any case.........good luck!

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, xiledscot...

I do find some of the overlapping tunes with the old time repertoire: two I am working on are Kitty's Wedding (Belle of Lexington) and Lord MacDonald's (Leather Britches). The skeletal versions of these tunes are similar but the Irish versions are, well, more Irish with different approached to the notes and, of course, ornamentation. 

So there are those tunes plus ones I do remember from decades ago when I listened to early Chieftains, Na Fili, Planxty, De Danaan and the Bothy Band (among others). 

I do find, tho, that switching between fiddle and mandolin is not so bad. In fact, it sort of helps me to learn left hand stuff on the mandolin since my right is not as distracted by bowing strategies. OTOH the ornamentation is more limited on the mandolin -- very hard to do rolls without that sustain.

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## xiledscot

Now you've done it.  I had completely forgotten about Kitty's Wedding.
I think that a lot of music (even modern classical) have their roots in Scottish/Irish.
I enjoy mixing Genre. eg Silver Spear followed by Squirrel Hunters,or The Butterfly followed by Teddy Bears Picnic.

Nothing wrong with "early Chieftains, Na Fili, Planxty, De Danaan and the Bothy Band (among others). "  in fact I prefer some of the older versions.

and........of course you are quite correct.It is extremely difficult to replicate rolls and double stops,but then,I suppose that's where the improvisation comes in.
Leather Briches............hmmmm..........now that would sound good with.........

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Violingirl

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## foldedpath

> Now you've done it.  I had completely forgotten about Kitty's Wedding.
> I think that a lot of music (even modern classical) have their roots in Scottish/Irish.
> I enjoy mixing Genre. eg Silver Spear followed by Squirrel Hunters,or The Butterfly followed by Teddy Bears Picnic.


At our local Scottish/Cape Breton/Irish session, my S.O. and I have introduced the idea of following The Jolly Beggarman (hornpipe) with Red Haired Boy (Americana reel) at a brisk Bluegrassy pace. Same tune, just the migrated version. The notes between versions are a _little_ different here and there, but they're consonant so it doesn't matter. The two pipers at the session know the hornpipe version, and they're getting a kick out of playing it faster as a reel.

Gotta be careful about this though, unless everyone is on board. Some sessions can be pretty rigid (and necessarily so) about sticking with the genre the players are interested in.

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## mikeyes

I think you have already found the best way to develop a set of Irish tunes, lessons from Brian Conway (one of the best there is), and attendance at a good session.  In the beginning you will be listening and observing, but after a while you will develop a feel for the music and a get a lot of tunes following the advice above.  Enjoy the journey!

Mike Keyes
itmbanjo.blogspot.com

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## Jim Garber

I would never introduce "foreign" tunes at an established ITM session. I might as well bring an electric guitar and play some Hendrix lick on volume 11.  :Smile:  

Of course, I lead a monthly OT session and no one has a problem with playing other tunes or odd versions of whatever. Still... I would not introduce any Hendrix there...

I figure I am in the right realm and it is very lucky to have Brian's session in proximity -- he told me that it has been going on weekly for 16 years. I really do need to take advantage of his expertise and hope to do some soon. 

As far as a feel for the music, I am immersing myself, listening to a bunch in my car and inserting it in my brain (see above).

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## DougC

Repeating tunes as you play along is a very solid technique.  I played along with the computer and software called abc2win and learned that the computer always has a solid tempo and pitch and it has absolute patience. Then, or before that I got the name of the tune that inspired me, either at the sessiun or on a recording and listened closely to hear the lilt or placement of ornaments. I found favorite musicians who I wanted to emulate. And if I was really inspired, I slowed the recording down and learned every little sound that the player made. Then when I was uncertain how something was done, I'd ask a really good player at the session or a well known teacher like Brian to give me the scoop.  I did not learn tons of tunes right away. There is pressure to have a huge amount of tunes in your head. But I did not screw up at sessiuns either.  I'm sure you know this but I think it is important to put it out there.  I also found myself asking often, "What makes this sound so Irish? and not Old Time, or bluegrass or pop music, or jazzy".  Now I ask myself how can I improvise in the Irish way with real style. It is a deep well and the deeper I go the more I appreciate great players.

Another real asset that you have is in having a 'good ear'. If you are able to pick up something fairly quickly, or even on the fly, the better you can 'fake it' until the rest of the details follow. 

I have been a real good faker for years and I'm surprised that I have done things that are so methodical.  But having a good memory and a good ear and solid rhythm and pitch go a heck of a long way in any style.  You can rely on thoes skills.  You have them already.

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## Colin Lindsay

> Repeating tunes as you play along is a very solid technique.  
> 
> ...and listened closely to hear the lilt or placement of ornaments. I found favorite musicians who I wanted to emulate. And if I was really inspired, I slowed the recording down and learned every little sound that the player made.


In my young day (ahem!) I learned from LP records again and again and again, playing along until I had the tune. After all, the record didnt criticise or complain.
As for every little sound the player made... a lot of my early favourites have the lilts and ornaments that the piper Liam OFlynn put in, or that Alec Finn played. Its probably strange to have piping lilts in a tune played on mandola or guitar but thats the way I did it.
Once I got more confident, and knew the tune inside out, I then felt I could play it and enjoy it, and this is where my own little lilts and variations came in.

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## Bertram Henze

> As for every little sound the player made... a lot of my early favourites have the lilts and ornaments that the piper Liam O’Flynn put in, or that Alec Finn played. It’s probably strange to have piping lilts in a tune played on mandola or guitar… but that’s the way I did it.
> Once I got more confident, and knew the tune inside out, I then felt I could play it and enjoy it, and this is where my own little lilts and variations came in.


In the beginning, I used to hear the recorded tune in my head while I played along with that and was quite happy with it. Later, I found out that others can't hear what's in my head and started to invent my own ornaments and whatever was neccessary to exploit the strength of my instrument and get up to speed and volume, arriving on a style completely different from (but still compatible with) what other players do.

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## Nick Gellie

Thanks Jim for raising this.  This would have to be one of the best threads I have read for a long time.  Thanks all who have contributed.  For me,  I pick and chose what I play in ITM.  Some tunes just stand out on the mandolin, others don't.  I too like to learn tunes in sets but sometimes these sets don't match up the sets made in sessions - it depends who is leading.

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## Jim Garber

I went to an ITM slow jam last night and it was a nice way to check some progress. I played a few of the tunes I was working on and there was no problem since it was pretty much a learning session. I wrote down the names of the tunes we played and now I can go back and learn some of them. A long drive so I am not sure how often I can go but worth the trip at least for this time.

it is really great to play these tunes with folks for more than a couple of times each and at a lower than moderate learning tempo. We did not play dreadfully slow but at a nice pace.

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## catmandu2

> ... a lot of my early favourites have the lilts and ornaments that the piper Liam O’Flynn put in, or that Alec Finn played. It’s probably strange to have piping lilts in a tune played on mandola or guitar…


Some say to listen to the pipers and the flutes.   I understood why--when I began to listen to them myself.  The natural articulation of wind instruments...the *voice*...is what brings us here.  Seems we go back and back, to "understand" the music.  So there is a lot that can be uttered about why this is so, and this and that--someone else will be able to say it better than me, as I'll rhapsodize and technicalize the world of possibilities to no end




> ... listen over and over, one tune (or set, if this session plays particular sets, not all of them do) at a time until you can _sing_ the melody along with the recording. 
> 
> At that point you'll have the tune in your head and should be able to play it.


I'm with Roger and all else who mentioned: listen to the tune over and over--singing it bit by bit til you eventually can go all the way through...  Whatever instrument you play--it will come out--if you're singing it over and over all day... can't not.  Anyway, this is my experience

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## Jim Garber

I certainly understand listening to pipers for phrasing but I find that it is very difficult to imitate some of the ornaments from wind instruments or even from fiddle on the mandolin. Trebles and cuts work fine. Rolls are more difficult unless you either have a super-sustaining instrument or else can super-quickly pick each note.

I am currently playing this stuff on both mandolin and fiddle and each has its difficulties tho I find I can play more tunes at a faster tempo on the mandolin.

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## catmandu2

> I certainly understand listening to pipers for phrasing but I find that it is very difficult to imitate some of the ornaments from wind instruments or even from fiddle on the mandolin. Trebles and cuts work fine. Rolls are more difficult unless you either have a super-sustaining instrument or else can super-quickly pick each note.


Yep, it's done differently on each.  On harp--these techniques are completely different than on any of the other strings, for example: ornamentation is largely dictated by the technical capacities of the instrument (which, very generally speaking, is why a mandolin and a harp are "percussion" instruments, and winds and strings--"melody" instruments, etc.).  _Phrasing_ is what I'm getting at--as the primary element, while ornamentation skirts along the edges, if you will.  A mandolin tends to allow us to play fast, but may be quite challenging to emulate the voice, etc. "Emulation" may, or may not, involve "imitation," precisely.

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## DougC

> Yep, it's done differently on each.  On harp--these techniques are completely different than on any of the other strings, for example: ornamentation is largely dictated by the technical capacities of the instrument (which, very generally speaking, is why a mandolin and a harp are "percussion" instruments, and winds and strings--"melody" instruments, etc.).  _Phrasing_ is what I'm getting at--as the primary element, while ornamentation skirts along the edges, if you will.  A mandolin tends to allow us to play fast, but may be quite challenging to emulate the voice, etc. "Emulation" may, or may not, involve "imitation," precisely.


A very good point. However it may be a bit advanced for the beginners. But this is so insightful! Irish music is made in phrases and not measures on a staff. Like singing, when you run out of breath, it is the end of the phrase. And singing the tune, or lilting really puts this in order. 

Mandolins must emphasize their ability to create rhythm because they can't sustain notes like a voice, a whistle or violin. The good news is that Irish music is very rhythmic. It is dance music and to dance you need a beat!  Up beats, or back beats mostly. I've danced to just a bodhran many times. And it was very expressive music.

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## FatBear

> Brains are weird things..... well mine is.


It's good to know I am not alone.

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## Jim Garber

Slowly but surely I am getting a bunch of tunes under my fingers. So far I have collected more jigs than anything in my brain and fingers. The reels are a little more difficult in terms of actually playing them as Irish-sounding with proper ornamentation etc. I spent the better part of the afternoon plunging into Cooley's Reel and have gotten somewhere with that.

There is another slow session about an hour in another direction but I am not sure I can go this week.

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## Miss Lonelyhearts

Jim, Brian Conway knows a lot of tunes, but the heart of his repertoire is "NY Sligo," which narrows the focus on what tunes to learn, and also which recordings to listen to. If you like that style, Brian's a master. A great way to immerse yourself beyond the session and lessons would be to listen repeatedly to everything recorded by Michael Coleman, Andy McGann, and Brian himself. His cd, _First Through the Gate_, is excellent, full of classic sets. _The Apple in Winter_ and _A Tribute to Andy McGann_ are also cds worth having. If you decide to do lessons with Brian, you'd do well to first have a bunch of "his" tunes under your fingers. He'll drill you on his approach to bowing, which is a terrific window into Irish fiddle, especially Sligo fiddle. It's easier to learn the bowing if you already know the tunes.

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## catmandu2

> A very good point. However it may be a bit advanced for the beginners. But this is so insightful! Irish music is made in phrases and not measures on a staff. Like singing, when you run out of breath, it is the end of the phrase. And singing the tune, or lilting really puts this in order. 
> 
> Mandolins must emphasize their ability to create rhythm because they can't sustain notes like a voice, a whistle or violin. The good news is that Irish music is very rhythmic. It is dance music and to dance you need a beat!  Up beats, or back beats mostly. I've danced to just a bodhran many times. And it was very expressive music.


Well I simply have the perspective of having studied multiple instruments and enjoy comparisons among them.  I don't want to derail Jim's thread, (and apologize if I have)--and certainly ornaments are part of phrasing--but it's interesting: playing a wind instrument allows us to be quite delicate and nuanced wrt oranaments, dynamics and all phrasing (as anyone who plays can attest).  Not that mandolin is not expressive or require precision, but the breath--as well as the bellows, and bow to great extent--allow us to employ very fine gestures--the sensitivity of the instruments encourage such deployment and respond effectively.  With a plectrum--or even all our fingers (harp, guitar, etc)--the mechanism involves percussion, and evinces different character altogether.  Playing "lyrically" on a mandolin is about roughly "equivalent" to playing rhythmically on a wind instrument--not that this is any real basis for comparison, but just for fun  :Smile: 

But, this is why it can be to such benefit to study singers, pipers, all

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, ML. We think along the same lines. Yes the repertoire is doable (tho extensive). I have been to a number of Brian's sessions already and have a list of what it played. He actually wants me to start lessons sooner than later so as not develop bad habits. Maybe in a week or so. I do have a large collection of recordings -- I think all you mention above. What I have been doing is working on practicing one version of a tune then going to recordings for variations and using Amazing Slow Downer to hear the subtleties.

BTW speaking of styles, I found this in-depth look at Irish regional styles  by Pilippe Varlet *here*.

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## Jim Garber

Catmandu and DougC: this is a good derailment... actually I don't consider it derailment at all. Learning tunes you can hear differences with the different instruments for sure. I would imagine, for instance, that the button box might be also considered a sort of percussion instrument and also limited compared to fiddle. In any case, I consider phrasing of utmost importance and in a way, even in purely instrumental music you want to tell a story or evoke an emotion thru the music -- at least that is my ultimate goal.

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catmandu2

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## catmandu2

> Catmandu and DougC: this is a good derailment... actually I don't consider it derailment at all. Learning tunes you can hear differences with the different instruments for sure. I would imagine, for instance, that the button box might be also considered a sort of percussion instrument and also limited compared to fiddle. In any case, I consider phrasing of utmost importance and in a way, even in purely instrumental music you want to tell a story or evoke an emotion thru the music -- at least that is my ultimate goal.


Indeed, the box--with its discrete steps, mechanical buttons, etc--has _its_ limitations: its mechanical keyboard make the ornaments quite challenging.  Yet, it is a reed, and with its bellows has the benefit of sustain and very vocal-esque quality (cue Tony MacMahon "Dear Irish Boy"). 

Re: story and emotion...I was thinking of this the other day--thinking of phrasing wrt this thread--what _are_ the tunes?  We reel through them--faster and faster--one after the other...  Perhaps some of the oft-cited critique that "all the diddly-music sounds the same"; the players can't remember the names of the tunes, etc--may emanate from our vast collection of tunes and delivered with our usual ornaments--always a danger the further the expression travels from its source..  From where did they originate?  This is of course a vast topic requiring scholarship; how much of the tunes are contrivances (not pejoratively, but just for illustration) for dance, or court dalliance, and the bardic traditions?  

How do we approach the music?  Moreso, these days, I'm apt to talk about the tunes I'm playing...and the tunes themselves are requiring more study.  Must be old-age settin in   :Wink:

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## foldedpath

> In any case, I consider phrasing of utmost importance and in a way, even in purely instrumental music you want to tell a story or evoke an emotion thru the music -- at least that is my ultimate goal.





> Re: story and emotion...I was thinking of this the other day--thinking of phrasing wrt this thread--what _are_ the tunes?  We reel through them--faster and faster--one after the other...  Perhaps some of the oft-cited critique that "all the diddly-music sounds the same"; the players can't remember the names of the tunes, etc--may emanate from our vast collection of tunes and delivered with our usual ornaments--always a danger the further the expression travels from its source..


At the risk of throwing a wet blanket over the proceedings, I think y'all might be over-thinking this music. 
 :Wink: 

Ignoring for the moment the slow airs and O'Carolan tunes, most of what we play at Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton and related sessions is _dance music_! The ornamentation and expression is important to give it a 'trad feel, sure, but it's about getting people's feet tapping, even if it's just fellow musicians at a pub session and some of the patrons. 

Unless you play in a Céilidh band, it's no longer actually connected to playing for dances like it was in ye olden days (not that long ago, actually). But it was the original intent of most of the repertoire we play in sessions. The story a reel has to tell, is "get up and dance!" Or at least get your feet tapping.

Here's a video of Andrea Beaton playing at a house party. I've had the privilege of sitting next to her and playing along at an after-hours workshop Céilidh. Note the tempo of the dancer's motion compared to the tempo of the music. That's why some of this stuff seems so fast when you play it, but it _has_ to be that fast for the dance forms:



Here's a Breton tune I learned recently, and we're introducing it at our local Scottish/Irish session. It starts slow, but doesn't stay there:



When we get to the airs, yeah, that's a whole different story (literally). My S.O. and I play a Scottish air called Braes of Lochiel. At our local session there is a woman who sometimes shows up and is a great singer, who can sing the words in Gaelic. 

They say you should always learn the words, or at least listen to the pulse of a Gaelic singer to best interpret an air as an instrumental piece. Of course that could get into the whole issue of whether the mandolin is actually suited for true (non-rhythmic) airs in the first place, and this probably isn't the place for it. Now that I've taken up the study of Irish flute, that's what I use on this stuff. 

Also, when you do find the lyrics for many of these airs, it turns out to be yet another one with the lonely guy pining after a pretty girl (which is what Braes of Lochiel is about, apparently), and that's about it.
 :Wink:

----------

tangleweeds

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## foldedpath

> Learning tunes you can hear differences with the different instruments for sure. I would imagine, for instance, that the button box might be also considered a sort of percussion instrument and also limited compared to fiddle.


Couldn't resist one more video example. This is a bit like mentioning Chris Thile when the subject is the limitations of mandolin... mere mortals don't play like this. But listen to Damien Mullane on the box: 



Note the advantage it shares with mandolin, of being able to play bits of harmony along with the melody, but it also shares the sustaining quality of the "main" trad instruments. If your foot doesn't start tapping when he goes into the second tune, you're certifiably dead.

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## Jim Garber

Thanks for those videos. Yes, agree that the story is get up and dance, however, the overarching story is that there is a big difference between the best players (for dancing or for just listening) and those who may not be at that level and that is the subtleties of the phrasing that drives the dancing. I still think that there is a story to tell here. I don't  see any wet blankets, BTW, just an opinion ad i don't think we really disagree anyway. And I think you are taking my comment all too literally.

i love Damien's playing BTW.

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## foldedpath

> Thanks for those videos. Yes, agree that the story is get up and dance, however, the overarching story is that there is a big difference between the best players (for dancing or for just listening) and those who may not be at that level and that is the subtleties of the phrasing that drives the dancing. I still think that there is a story to tell here.


Okay, just a friendly disagreement then. Or maybe a different interpretation of the word "story?" Sorry if I took anything too literally, it's just a jumping off point for conversation about the music.

For me, the best players for both dancing and listening are playing pure music, and that's what one has to dig into, to learn how to play this genre. After you get the skeleton of a tune under your fingers, it's all about rhythm, pulse, and lift for dancing. And then whatever ornaments you need, to provide those things. The idea of a story to tell, is something I associate more with Irish and Scottish airs. So maybe we're just using terms in a different way.

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## Jim Garber

OK, more literally, a singer sings a song with an actual story to tell. Now, that person could just read it in a monotone or read it dramatically. But singing it takes it to another level because there is more emphasis on tone, phrasing and melody. A great singer will add much in the way of using his or her voice to express the whole story.

So then take away the literal story you still have the music which evokes some sort of feeling and emotion. 

All right... my use of the "story" may be far fetched and perhaps a useless analogy. Let's just say IMHO even a dance tune can get me excited when played by a wonderful player and I am no dancer. I listened this morning to Frankie Gavin and I had chills even tho he was just playing a reel or two.

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## catmandu2

I understand that the tunes--jigs, reels, strathspey and waltzes--are dance tunes, and this is the session fodder.  My interest, however--and again getting offtrack--is in the earlier stuff (being currently into the ap Huw MS material several Cs prior to Carolan).  Much of the court music of this time--feels and counts like dance music, and it seems reasonable to make the presumption that it was intended and deployed thusly.  Yet, some of the ap Huw MS, for example, includes pieces 10-15 minutes in length, where there are many changing modes and sonorities--almost like movements, etc, interspersed among the dance tempos, etc.  One question might be, for example--how the dances derive from this "ancient" music?  How are they preserved?  How derivative are they--from the original sources?

Perhaps, as you say f-path, they were merely chops to propel the feet and the custom.  And perhaps--among a planxty or love sonnet--a simple dance tempo was inserted (Carolan's planxtys are revered a gravitas today that they perhaps weren't afforded in their day?).  Perhaps the dance movements themselves were composed of such delicacy and beauty as to evoke such unintended resonances.  But perhaps, also, there was a more organic unity among the elements--tempos, movements, entire pieces, etc.  Considering the more "mystical" nature--or at least socially complex role--of music in early society, my inclination is to suspect that there may have been more to the music, in its orginal form, for example.  Clearly, there are both dance and "lyric" forms in the music: just how distinct the demarcation--and how it evolved--I wonder how much cross-pollination, etc

Well, such things must be approached with some historical scholarship--I'm simply not qualified.

One thing I came across--concerning how much of our fiddling tradition comes from pipe tunes:  the Pibroch:_ Piobaireachd or Ceòl Mòr is an art music genre associated primarily with the Scottish Highlands that is characterized by extended compositions with a melodic theme and elaborate formal variations. Strictly meaning "piping" in Scottish Gaelic, piobaireachd has for some four centuries been music of the Great Highland Bagpipe.[1] Music of a similar nature, predating the adoption on the Highland pipes, has historically been played on the wire-strung Gaelic harp (clarsach) and later on the Scottish fiddle, and this form is undergoing a revival.

A more general term is ceol mor (Scottish Gaelic ceòl mór) meaning the "great music," to distinguish this complex extended art-music from the more popular Scottish music such as dances, reels, marches and strathspeys which are called ceòl beag or "little music."_ 

_Pibroch is difficult to document accurately using traditional musical notation, and early attempts suffered from conventions which do not accurately convey tune expression.[9] More contemporary pibroch notation has attempted to address these issues, and has produced notation much closer to true expression of the tunes.[10][11]

Pibroch does not follow a strict metre but it does have a rhythmic flow or pulse; it does not follow a strict beat or tempo although it does have pacing (my bold). The written notation of pibroch serves mainly as a rough guide for the piper. The expression of the rhythms and tempos of the pibroch tune are primarily acquired from an experienced teacher and applied through interpretive performance practice._ ( -wiki ) ... made me think: I spend at least as much but probably more time on pacing as I do ornaments...


But then, there's always the dialectic--expressed well by Mr McMahon:

----------

DougC, 

Fretless, 

Jim Garber

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## catmandu2

After pondering this more this evening--I'm more inclined to pursue  another "sacred and profane" conundrum  :Wink:

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## Bertram Henze

> I would imagine, for instance, that the button box might be also considered a sort of percussion instrument and also limited compared to fiddle.


I'd like to see you walk up to a box player and tell him he's playing a percussion instrument...
I'd like to mention the difference in playing style suggested by playing either a C#/D box, like the late Joe Cooley, or a B/C box like Joe Burke. Different bellows action, different ornamental workarounds. The C#/D seems to be more of a breather, while the B/C is a clicker. Here's some of both:

----------

Fretless, 

Jim Garber

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## whistler

> The story a reel has to tell, is "get up and dance!"


I agree wholeheartedly with the overall sentiment of what you are saying here - the dance has to be there in the music, whether or not it is being played for dancing.  And there is definitely a risk of intellectualising the music to the point where it affects how it is played.  However, I don't think that the dance and the music are separable - that's how it manages still to be dance music, without having people dance to it.  The melodic 'story' is just as important as the 'get up and dance' story - in fact, they are the same thing.  I think, to understand this properly (not that I make any such claim), you need to look beyond set dancing and ceilis to sean nós dancing.  The following video was posted very recently on thesession.org: 


Here, the musician plays the dance and the dancer dances the tune.   The musician plays a story and the dancer dances a story.

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## Bertram Henze

> Here, the musician plays the dance and the dancer dances the tune.   The musician plays a story and the dancer dances a story.


Under ideal circumstances, the tune dances the dancer.

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## Jim Garber

Man, this thread is going in some wonderful directions IMHO. Keep up the good work, folks!

I was thinking about what foldedpath said in response to my comment about telling a story. I realized that I have been getting down to the molecular level on some of these tunes while both learning and practicing them. There is the danger of intellectualizing but I have never really succumbed to that state of mind. I doubt I could never over-intellectualize my playing. I tend to ignore overly technical playing in exchange for the emotional (read: "sloppy, but with feeling"). 

OTOH when you do take even a rollicking dance down to air-like tempi there is a story to tell (as in an air). And, of course, the term story would be used rather loosely.

As for calling a button box player a percussionist -- I would not do that to his or her face. However, playing any instrument with finite pitches (mandolin or button box) there has to be some limits as compared to violin (infinite pitches) and wind instruments (less finite). Thanks Bertram for those videos. I had seen the Gavin-Burke one but not the Joe Cooley.

BTW do any box players play the C#/D these days? I know little about that but I assume most play the B/C.

BTW I have been listening to *A Tribute to Joe Cooley* a lot. Wonderful recording.

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## Bertram Henze

The 2 most striking things (to me) in that Joe Cooley video are not his playing, but
- the creepiness of many of the audience, displaying extreme facial characters along with an extreme display of having fun. Some of these bear a remarkable family resemblance with Joe's brother, the bodhran player.
- that bodhran. Turn up at a modern session with a tambourine with jingle bells and call it a bodhran, but have your car right outside, motor running. Puts much of today's purism in perspective.

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Jim Garber

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## Jim Garber

Hah! That is very funny. I noticed the old guy moving his head and a few others in the audience. I missed the tambourine. Maybe he just came from a choro session.  :Smile:

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## catmandu2

> ...Here, the musician plays the dance and the dancer dances the tune.   The musician plays a story and the dancer dances a story.


Thank you.  My thoughts on this turned to dance--thinking about traditions around the world--and the depth of cultural expression encompassed.  Dance is really where the custom is seated, and will tell us much more about the music.  In this sense, "storytelling" is an essential aspect of the music--even as the music is subordinate to the dance..

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## MikeyG

> BTW do any box players play the C#/D these days? I know little about that but I assume most play the B/C.
> 
> BTW I have been listening to *A Tribute to Joe Cooley* a lot. Wonderful recording.


YES, Jim - there are plenty of C#/D box players left.  Jackie Daly is probably the most influential but there's also Conor Keane, Brendan Begley, Tony MacMahon, and Sharon Shannon plays BOTH C#/D and B/C.  But, you're right about most players chosing B/C - a reasonable guess might be about 70%.  

For anyone wanting to learn the basics of the 2-row C#/D Irish button accordion, here's a link to a very nice tutorial by my good friend Steve Jones of Montreal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxryj37OE4c

The cd you cited has many common session tunes - my current favorite is on the track 7 - The Sailor on the Rock, The Templehouse, and The Lilies of the Field.  You can't go wrong by learning all the tunes on that cd.

MikeyG

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## Jim Garber

So, Mike: Thanks!!  Which do you play... or do you play both?

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## FatBear

> And perhaps--among a planxty or love sonnet--a simple dance tempo was inserted


May I ask a noob question?  What is a "planxty"?  This implies that it is a musical form, but Google only produces an infinite list of hits for or about the group Planxty.

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## Bertram Henze

> What is a "planxty"?


Here is an explanation.

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FatBear

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## catmandu2

_Many of (Carolan's) songs are designated as "planxties", a word that Carolan apparently invented or popularized to signify a tribute to a merry host. In return for writing songs in honor of wealthy patrons_ -wiki -

Re - box: Somewhere around here I have a cd "100 tunes for button accordion" which I believe came with notation--if you're inclined.  I found CDs like these quite beneficial for learning tunes--as the tunes themselves are kept very short, without much elaboration or variation...aiding acquisition of the tune very simply

And, we must get round to discussing concertina! (anglo)--an instrument which allows us to play countermelodies and contrapuntal figures simultaneously--with the melody in both hands (as opposed to the harmonic limitation of melodeon basses)

Bertram--on playing the melodeon "rhythmically": indeed, acquiring the lilt in box playing is one of the higher pursuits!

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FatBear

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## MikeyG

> Here is an explanation.


And in this thread there is another (explanation of "planxty") that might be more complete:

http://thesession.org/discussions/1970

MikeyG

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FatBear

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## foldedpath

> Perhaps, as you say f-path, they were merely chops to propel the feet and the custom.  And perhaps--among a planxty or love sonnet--a simple dance tempo was inserted (Carolan's planxtys are revered a gravitas today that they perhaps weren't afforded in their day?).  Perhaps the dance movements themselves were composed of such delicacy and beauty as to evoke such unintended resonances.  But perhaps, also, there was a more organic unity among the elements--tempos, movements, entire pieces, etc.  Considering the more "mystical" nature--or at least socially complex role--of music in early society, my inclination is to suspect that there may have been more to the music, in its orginal form, for example.  Clearly, there are both dance and "lyric" forms in the music: just how distinct the demarcation--and how it evolved--I wonder how much cross-pollination, etc


There may indeed have been cross-pollination, but I think the lines are (and were) fairly distinct between the music meant for solo, expressive performance like Piobaireachd/Ceòl Mòr for the pipes, and the music of the Cláirseach (harp) tradition, vs. the music meant for dancing out in the countryside in someone's kitchen or barn. And it's the latter that you'll hear in sessions, aside from maybe one performance of an Air by a singer or solo fiddler, with the rest of the group sitting quietly with their instruments in their laps. 

This may be the "sacred vs. profane" distinction you were referring to? Although I'd call it more a difference between solo performance intended for the court or other formal occasions, vs. informal music played for dancing by amateur musicians, which later evolved into gathering at the local pub to play the tunes. 

Emotional expression ("telling a story") is far easier at the slower and un-metered tempos of an Air or Ceòl Mòr piece. It's easy to hear in that Port Na Bpucai clip by Tony MacMahon. But when you're playing a jig or reel at full speed, the avenue of expression is primarily rhythmic. The pulse must be steady and the notes are flying by quickly. One might argue that "ornaments" constitute expression, but I wonder if they're mainly just a holdover from the mechanical limitations of early un-stopped pipe music, carried over for traditional reasons so the music "sounds Irish." This is mentioned in the article Jim linked to, above, and I've also read that theory in a flute instruction book by Grey Larsen. If it's an expression of anything, it's about authenticity... yep, this sounds like Irish music!

As an aside, I never completely understood how a cut worked, until I started playing a little (very little, and still learning) Irish flute. Then I realized... ah ha! That's how you play two consecutive notes at the same pitch with an unvarying air flow. Makes perfect sense, as do the related techniques of taps, rolls, etc. That fed back into how I play mandolin, although the simulation is limited to a pull-off, which lacks the same percussive quality of a cut on the fiddle, flute, or pipes. 

Realizing that cuts, taps, and rolls probably evolved from the consecutive same-pitch note problem was also a great help in figuring out _where_ to add a treble ornament when playing mandolin. When I hear a note repeated in a tune, that's often a good opportunity for a treble ornament, if it doesn't break the flow of the tune.

----------

Jim Garber

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## catmandu2

Yes I think that seems plausible--the ornaments being a mechanism to impart rhythmic articulation.  My harp study--learning a whole new series of techniques--clearly reveals this to me.  In box playing, these ornaments are particularly essential--as the box lacks these natural percussive elements--so natural on the other instruments..

And yes--playing the flute is very instructive, beyond just flute-playing.  All study is beneficial, of course, but I always say--one should at least study a wind instrument and/or fiddle--which tend to impart great insights for all things musical

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## Bertram Henze

> And in this thread there is another (explanation of "planxty") that might be more complete:
> 
> http://thesession.org/discussions/1970
> 
> MikeyG


After reading that, I am certain that O'Carolan planted this word on us for the sole purpose of ROFLHAO...
I'll say Planxty is an anglicized translation of Whackfolalderah.

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## catmandu2

> This may be the "sacred vs. profane" distinction you were referring to? Although I'd call it more a difference between solo performance intended for the court or other formal occasions, vs. informal music played for dancing by amateur musicians, which later evolved into gathering at the local pub to play the tunes.


Yes that's pretty much what I mean.

I always wished I'd danced more.  I have zero experience with formal dancing.  I'm pretty compelled by dance--all the Mediterranean, Arabic, Asian, African...ballet too

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## Beanzy

Although the meaning of planxty and the surname is actually lost I always fancied it meant "plán sa tí" or "a plague on the house"  :Grin:  

(how long before that gets listed as historical fact somewhere else on the internet?)

As for the dance, there were many styles of dance in vogue and being developed in the period. Don't forget that in the case of O'Carolan you're looking at a composer who was very much influenced by the Italian composers such as Vivaldi and Corelli (and apparently was quite despised by his fellow harpers for that), so you need to see the tunes on the page as a framework then see what dance styles suggest themselves. Even in modern ceilidh dancing we have the vestiges of the formal steps and moves of those old baroque dances albeit through a modern form.

The other thing to work hard with on the mandolin is to get the phrasing for the push and draw or tension/release of these tunes. Something much easier with a bow or a bellows to give the physical feedback. On mandolin we really have to work out our own way of leaning into the tunes then laying back.

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## catmandu2

Yes I'm wondering about the occurrence of commonalities among dance forms--looking at popular forms of both court dance and country dance (late medieval-early renaissance).  Many recognizable  forms occur in Carolan's music, for example.  In the case of earlier music--such as the ap Huw MS--it's difficult to discern, exactly, as the manuscript is still being interpreted, and much we have no written record altogether

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## DougC

> Yes I think that seems plausible--the ornaments being a mechanism to impart rhythmic articulation.  My harp study--learning a whole new series of techniques--clearly reveals this to me.  In box playing, these ornaments are particularly essential--as the box lacks these natural percussive elements--so natural on the other instruments..
> 
> And yes--playing the flute is very instructive, beyond just flute-playing.  All study is beneficial, of course, but I always say--one should at least study a wind instrument and/or fiddle--which tend to impart great insights for all things musical



I've played a bit of flute and can say that it is a whole different experience than violin or mandolin. You don't need to play the other instruments to get this understanding, I believe. One can play in unison and as much as possible, play every nuance of articulation and phrasing with a bagpipe, for example. 

That kind of listening really gets to an understanding of the music.  BTW I used to discuss this online with Phillip Varlet back in the 1990's. 

 I also think one can determine, based on this kind of listening / playing what instrument was used to compose the tune. It's an interesting notion at any rate.

----------

bruce.b, 

catmandu2

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## catmandu2

> I've played a bit of flute and can say that it is a whole different experience than violin or mandolin. You don't need to play the other instruments to get this understanding, I believe. One can play in unison and as much as possible, play every nuance of articulation and phrasing with a bagpipe, for example. 
> 
> That kind of listening really gets to an understanding of the music.  BTW I used to discuss this online with Phillip Varlet back in the 1990's.


Yes, completely agree.  I've played a variety of woodwinds since youth;  the simple wood flute is all I'm blowing on now (and occ a whistle). 




> I also think one can determine, based on this kind of listening / playing what instrument was used to compose the tune. It's an interesting notion at any rate.


Wrt this, I listened to harp music (specifically--Gaelic harp and the lot) some 20+ years being inescapably captivated and wanting to play, and for many reasons put it off for decades.  Long story short: after playing harp tunes on about half-a-dozen other instruments--finally getting to play harp tunes on a harp was a confirmatory experience, completely (a bit like playing fiddle tunes on a fiddle...)

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## fatt-dad

I called one of the dudes that I see at local old-time jam and asked if he wanted to get together during the week and work on tunes.  That was a year and a half ago, meeting every other week.  We are doing all sorts of stuff (Classical, old-time) including Irish music. I have no idea what they play at the local ITM jams, but I'm having a blast, just now practicing a few O'Carolan tunes. I'm also learning, "The Morning Dew." Just fun duets of any ilk, 'cause I got a dude to work them up with!

f-d

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## catmandu2

> The other thing to work hard with on the mandolin is to get the phrasing for the push and draw or tension/release of these tunes. Something much easier with a bow or a bellows to give the physical feedback. On mandolin we really have to work out our own way of leaning into the tunes then laying back.


Yes.  Mandolin is a stiff little critter--generally (comparatively) more challenging to cull dynamics...always love when it breathes.  One of my problems--after listening to a lot of dense art/jazz music--I often like lots of space and breath in music...Jon Christensen/Paul Motian my new favorite drummers...so the mandolin often challenges me.  Long nails on my frkn left hand don't help me...

PS-sorry for yakking up your thread so much Jim.   :Redface:

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## foldedpath

> I also think one can determine, based on this kind of listening / playing what instrument was used to compose the tune. It's an interesting notion at any rate.


It's not only interesting detective work, it helps in figuring out how to approach the tune.

I'm certainly no expert in this music, since I came to it late in life as a player (although I've listened to it for much longer). I wasn't raised in the tradition. But if you spend enough time listening to the music, taking workshops with players who were raised in it, etc... you can start to pick up hints of the original composer's instrument.

Some of it is fairly obvious, like "modern" (20th-21st Century) Contra Dance tunes and tunes by modern Irish repertoire composers like Paddy Fahey, Sean Ryan and Liz Carroll that make extensive use of the G string on a fiddle, where whistle, flute, and pipes can't go. That's surely a hint that the composer was a fiddler, and it drives some of us keyless Irish flute players and whistlers nuts because we can't play the tune without "folding" the low notes up an octave. 

Likewise, tunes in G Dorian are most likely fiddler-composed, and relatively recent in the tradition (but there are exceptions). 

A tune that's in A mixolydian and has a small range of notes is _probably_ a pipe tune, possibly transposed from the Highland pipes to the more session friendly smallpipes and related "indoor" pipes. 

My Significant Other is a fiddler with an interest in Scottish and Cape Breton music, and when she reads off a new tune from sheet music, I'm often saying "Okay, that's a pipe tune, isn't it?" Because it's in A Mix and it doesn't really go anywhere.
 :Wink: 

Okay, that's an exaggeration. I love _some_ pipe tunes, but I'm still developing an ear for appreciating the repertoire. Maybe you have to actually be a piper to get that deep into it. Tons of expression available, but such a small range of notes...

And then you have the harp stuff like O'Carolan, which you can tell wasn't composed on fiddle because some of the tunes (in modern transcription) go past the B note on the E string, which puts fiddlers out of first position, and is an unusual (for ITM) stretch on flute and whistle.

It's all great music, but sometimes the fingerprint of the composer's instrument is obvious. And more often, not that obvious!

----------

DougC, 

Jim Garber

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## Jim Garber

> PS-sorry for yakking up your thread so much Jim.


Frankly, I find it all interesting and have no problem when thread get derailed in the right direction. Keep up the good work. it is all relevant.

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## Jim Nollman

My first inspiration for Irish tunes was also Kevin Burke. For some unclear reason, both his choice of tunes, and the way he bowed, seemed doable by an intermediate mandolin player. I still play a number of tunes I got from those old recordings. _Walsh's Horn Pipe_ is one I played last night. 

Although it's sometimes possible for me to figure out if a tune is Irish simply by listening to it sometimes, any hope for accuracy  seems downright impossible, and also a bit political. I have been playing _Swinging on a Gate_ for years now, and always believed it was a New England contra dance original, and fairly modern as well. recently some one told me it was 100% Irish and very old. I suspect there are hundreds of such tunes that get claimed by more than one tradition as their "official" origin.

One recent oddity I have acquired for playing dances.  I almost always reach for my F5 when playing a set of Irish jigs. It has to do with the fact that nearly every beat has a note. At dance speed, that can become a messy blur when played with an oval hole that has big sustain beaming right back to my own ear. The dry woodiness of an F5 focused a few feet in front of me simply sounds clearer at speed.

Sets of 3 tunes seems to be the established way of playing both Old Time and Irish for dances. Our fiddle player usually puts the tunes together, and has a great ear for matches that push each other. Lately we've been playing the chestnuts, _Kesh_ to _Morrison'_s to _Moon and Seven Stars_ as a set. The transitions really jump.  She also favors the approach of joining tunes that go from low to high based on the string arrangement. Many sets we play start with a G tune, then a D, then an A. But it's not a hard and fast rule. Lately I've been toying with _Salvation_ (F) — but is that Irish or New England? — into _High Up Tug_ (F: 100% Old Time) to _Garfield's Hornpipe_ (Bb) The name sounds American, and the phrasing sounds like Scott Joplin.

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

wrong topic

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## catmandu2

> I think you mean "The Little Beggarman (aka Ould Johnny Doo)"?  That and the Redhaired Boy are both Reels...  just at a different pace so you can sing the words...


I found RHB sounded much like "Down in the Coal Mine" (although I heard it sung with accordion/concertina...)

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## catmandu2

> ... I'm still developing an ear for appreciating the repertoire. Maybe you have to actually be a piper to get that deep into it. Tons of expression available, but such a small range of notes...


I find the pipes taking me back, and enjoy the sparseness.  I've been into the solo instrument thing most of my life--and enjoy the sound of the solo instrument tremendously (why I got into harps, accordians, etc).  The free-reed before the surge of the semitone box (B/C, C/C#, etc.) was the 10-button, single-row melodeon--which requires some deftness to exploit its smaller range--which would often be deployed solo, or song accompaniment.  The anglo concertina is another old school instrument often deployed solo..  Playing instruments in such a style--IME, we definitely tend to get into meditative, trance-like moods...the sparseness lends to its appeal





(not me there--I learned this tune yesterday)

You know, it occurs to me now--wrt "ornaments as rhythmic device"...playing instruments solo--and some pretty sparse ones at that--would be nowhere without grace notes to embellish melody..

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## catmandu2

Speaking of pipes (well, we _were_ speaking of them)...this beautiful vid exemplifies why they're probably king of them all



This film on regional styles is excellent for a number of things: one--what Caoimhin Raghallaigh is saying at about 23:00" (paraphrasing) -- "we can't really pass-on music (as was the tradition)--because there's too much around us, etc.--so we need to raise our level of understanding, and be aware of our response (how we respond to influences, etc)"...speaks to a number of levels of consideration...(on a fascinating subject)

----------

Fretless

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## Marty Jacobson

> Here is an explanation.


Interesting.. I had read several years ago that a "planxty" was usually written to honor an individual. For example, "Planxty George Brabazon", "Planxty Burke", "Planxty Drew",  "Planxty Bunting". I did not know that it mostly described the style or character of the tune.

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## catmandu2

> Interesting.. I had read several years ago that a "planxty" was usually written to honor an individual. For example, "Planxty George Brabazon", "Planxty Burke", "Planxty Drew",  "Planxty Bunting". I did not know that it mostly described the style or character of the tune.


I don't think that particular definition gives us much of an etiological perspective

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## Connor

What a fun thread! I'll respond to some of Jim's original comments about playing mandolin in Irish Traditional music sessions. 

*Learning new music*
I have been playing mandolin in local Irish sessions for the last 8-10 years. Being a reader and a lousy ear learner (I've been derisively called "paper trained"), I picked up a session book: Phil Rubenzer's Midwest Session Book, and waded in. I've since collected many more books. The sessions I attend have slowly evolved to the point that about half of the musicians are readers. I'm lucky enough to be a good sight reader - decades of playing second violin and church musician. As long as I could get the title, find the tune in a book, and they didn't start it too fast, I usually could stagger along. Slowly I got to the point where I knew tunes well enough that the notes served as a hint now and then. Now, I can play many tunes without the music, but I'm still lost sometimes if I don't have music to peek at. On the other hand, the ear players in our session sometimes rely on those of us who read music to teach new tunes and help start the vaguely remembered tune when nobody can quite remember the opening phrase.

*Ornamentation*
With fast tunes I find that on the mandolin I use a repeated triplet where a more elaborate ornament is played on a fiddle and it works OK. I use hammer-ons and pull-offs a lot, too.  Or, I just leave the ornament to the instruments that can do it easily. I find when I'm playing the octave mandolin I sometimes even just hint at the melody, sort of a modified bass line or counter melody, maybe with a chord or two here and there. 

*Variations on tunes*
I don't have a really broad range of experience with different sessions, but from the variety of people who flow through our local sessions, there are PLENTY of variations to tunes that have evolved. My "favorite" is Whiskey Before Breakfast. Whenever we play it there are at least three or four different versions of the A section. We sort of settle into a groove in the B section, but the A section is cacophony (my typo was cacaphony - a pretty good description - sounds like sh!t). It usually is OK, other than when some of the group know the tune with three sections and the rest with only two.

*Playing music fast*
OK, from time to time I'm guilty of pushing the tempo. However, some of my session buddies are notorious for it. Honest, I try to keep to a reasonable tempo, but there's something contagious about a rip-roaring reel. However, playing so fast that all the players end up skipping or slopping past many of the notes and phrases isn't all that fun. When we get to going too fast the reasonable players will just stop and watch the speedy ones flail about (I have noticed that they aren't playing a lot of the notes, something covered up by the group). Every now and then I do try a reel at a slow tempo, more like an air. Sometimes they are really quite delightful that way. One compromise that we have come up with is that we will play a tune at a reasonable pace for the learners and then kick it up for the speed demons.

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## Fretless

> Speaking of pipes (well, we _were_ speaking of them)...this beautiful vid exemplifies why they're probably king of them all
> 
> 
> 
> This film on regional styles is excellent for a number of things: one--what Caoimhin Raghallaigh is saying at about 23:00" (paraphrasing) -- "we can't really pass-on music (as was the tradition)--because there's too much around us, etc.--so we need to raise our level of understanding, and be aware of our response (how we respond to influences, etc)"...speaks to a number of levels of consideration...(on a fascinating subject)


Oooh, thanks for both of these! I'm a sucker for pipes. The second tune in the first video (starts at 1:20) is one of my all time favorites - The Ewie With the Crooked Horn. I've heard that it refers to a whisky still with the crooked horn being the distilling tube. Dunno for sure but it makes a good story.   :Smile:

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## grandomando

Hello all,

Thought I would throw in my 2 cents on the subject of repertoire building.

If you are switching over, or rather, explanding your horizons from OT to ITM, I think you're in for a treat (I'm doing the opposite, and its very refreshing). There are some nice time signatures and the basic lilt is definitely different. Not to mention some of the most beautiful tunes!

If you want to become a real session beast, I'll say get to know some influential recordings from the 60's and 70's. If you play those sets (yes, the whole sets) people world over will recognise you are referencing older masters, and immediately think you're in the know about the genre. And of course you would be at that point!

This is valuable regardless of the sets that are played regularly in your session. Our home session at least definitely allows freedom for every player to construct sets on the fly. And when you travel, Bothy (etc) sets are a reliable option when you are requested to lead a set; they are like a secret handshake.

Listen to the sets on repeat for several days, or until you can hum along. Then figure out them on the fingerboard. Use dots if need be -- you already know what it's supposed to sound like.

It helps if you get obsessed by a tune  :Wink: 

Btw, I find bluegrass incredibly difficult, since the players embellish the tunes so much. Like OT, ITM in a session context is much more "what you hear is what you need to learn", if you know what I mean. I'm trying to make the leap from ITM to OT to BG, and let me tell you, it isn't easy!

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## Jim Garber

Thanks to Connor and grandomando (and others) for your excellent suggestions. I have a good pile of source material including O'Neill's (bought way back in the 1970s and much dog-eared) plus recent acquisitions mentioned on my OP. I find myself using the Kingston (Ontario) session boom as my main source and take it from there. There is enough indication in the transcriptions to glean the ornamentation.

It is funny that i am primarily an ear-player but I am learning the tunes from that book to start. I figure I will then listen to some of the master recordings -- I do have a bunch of those even from the 1960s and 70s to draw from and even the classic reissues on 78 rpms as well. I generally have an Irish tune always bouncing around in my empty head (makes for good reverb). I definitely agree on the immersion experience. Luckily there are a few good sessions not too far from me.

Randi, who posts here often, invited me to her weekly session in Connecticut. That one is quite interesting since it starts really slow on the early end for the rank beginners and then as the evening progresses more and more experienced players show up and it turns into a full-fledged session, but welcoming to all.

Brian Conway runs a nice session in a local bar and often brings other excellent local folks up from New York City and elsewhere to join him. I am also going to my first fiddle lesson with Brian this coming weekend, so that will get me into the "code" or ITM, I would think.

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## Annette Siegel

And just to throw another idea at you.....Brian Conway & Marla Fibish are both instructors at the upcoming http://portalmusicweek.com/  I went last year and had a great time, it a smaller group and very relaxed.  A private lesson is also included in the week for you.

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## Jim Garber

Timing is everything. I was out in AZ for my niece's wedding but we didn't get too far from Phoenix and I don't think I can go back there. OTOH Brian and host of other ITM greats taught at the Catskill Irish Week closer to me up here in NY. I guess I will jusr have to settle for a lesson with Brian for right now.  :Smile:

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## Annette Siegel

> Timing is everything. I was out in AZ for my niece's wedding but we didn't get too far from Phoenix and I don't think I can go back there. OTOH Brian and host of other ITM greats taught at the Catskill Irish Week closer to me up here in NY. I guess I will jusr have to settle for a lesson with Brian for right now.


Oh you poor thing...I guess you'll just have to settle for that.  :Wink:

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## Jim Garber

Yes, I am looking fwd with some trepidation to my lesson. After 40 years of playing, no doubt there are many things I am doing wrong, tho for some reason the music does come out relatively all right.

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## Connor

You know, I have mixed feelings about the whole "doing it right/doing it wrong" thing. On the one hand, technique errors can get you in a bind that keeps you from playing well. On the other hand, if it works, and if you get to make music, enjoy it, and share it with others... what the heck! I have a friend that is of the opinion that if he can't do it extremely well, there's no point in trying at all. Thus, he has almost no hobbies. Somewhere along the line I acquired the philosophy: anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. Thus, I'm willing to wade in almost anywhere that I can do some musical damage. 

I also really like the Duke Ellington quote (quoted regularly by Peter Schikele): If it sounds good, it IS good. And, Jim, your final statement is the real justification - "for some reason the music does come out relatively all right." I like it.

Cheers!

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## Jim Garber

Connor: I can see your viewpoint for sure. I am certainly no perfectionist when it comes to playing various styles but I do consider and enjoy the challenge of getting close. I have enough facility on the fiddle and mandolin and a fairly well-trained ear to hear the difference. I know what it sounds like for a strictly old time player with no concern top stylistic differences to play ITM or a classical player to do the same to, say, bluegrass or blues. I do prefer the more authentic at least when it comes to listening and as for my playing I like the nuances. I do agree with the Duke but what sounds good to me is the more authentic or as close as I can get.

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## whistler

> I have mixed feelings about the whole "doing it right/doing it wrong" thing.


I agree. But, like Jim, I like stylistic nuances and try to capture them as best I can.  I like Irish music because of the way it sounds, and I like Old Time because of the way it sounds, so if I am trying to play either of them, the closer I get to the 'sound', the more I enjoy it.  The danger, I think, is placing so much weight on imitating a particular style, player - even a single performance - that the music is no longer a vehicle for your own expression.  Part of what makes these musical traditions so rich is the variety of personal approaches to the tunes.

Duke Ellington had it right, of course.  But 'good' is subjective.

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## Bertram Henze

> I like Irish music because of the way it sounds, and I like Old Time because of the way it sounds, so if I am trying to play either of them, the closer I get to the 'sound', the more I enjoy it.  The danger, I think, is placing so much weight on imitating a particular style, player - even a single performance - that the music is no longer a vehicle for your own expression.


These are the criteria indeed. Play it like it is Irish for you, because that is reachable. Don't try to make it sound Irish for everybody else, for you can't please everybody with a mandolin - there will always be the odd person who needs a set of uileann pipes or a spit stick (flute) to feel Irish  :Wink:

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## Connor

Another thing - there are folks that believe that there are correct and incorrect instruments for playing a particular genera of music. We wouldn't have the bouzouki/cittern in Irish music if groups in the '60s hadn't infused the Greek folk instrument into Irish music. Also consider the bodhrán, which evolved to what we hear today very recently. If I hear someone playing an older bodhrán using the older, simpler style I sometimes find myself cringing and thinking to myself: "amateur" before I reel in my orthodox thinking. 

I guess part of my realization as I moved from playing primarily classical, orchestral music to dabbling in all sorts of folk/traditional music, was that all of the styles we know of now as "authentic" are all an evolution of music due to the creativity and inventiveness of all of the great (and not so great) musicians through the ages. There is definitely joy to be found in nailing an Alisdair Fraiser lick or tune. But, there is also joy to be found in taking an old familiar reel and doing something completely new with it - especially when you and your musical friends create it together. There's room for both. Neither extreme is "right".

It's  pretty humbling to realize that some of what people call "traditional" Irish music evolved substantially within my lifetime. Makes me feel OLD.

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## Connor

ps... I always loved Peter Schikele's twitting of the authentic instrument folks in the classical world. On his radio show he would illustrate tunes with his "authentic" instrument, a cheezy Casio keyboard.

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## Connor

pps... After I posted my ps I decided to peek and see if there was any new info about Schikele Mix. On the website I found another phrase that I love (but had forgotten). It offers the flip side of my previous argument: "it don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that certain je ne sais quoi". There IS something "right" that has to be captured in the playing, too.

Keep on playing, folks!

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## Bertram Henze

> "it don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that certain je ne sais quoi"


Wonder why people always speak French when they don't know what to say. Reminds me of the Irish habit of speaking Irish for saying dirty things.  :Confused: 
It's all a kind of whack-fol-alderah...

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## pkev

Hi 

Some tunes from the O'Neills collection I'm re-discovering, might be worth checking out to add to your repertoire

Sergt Early's Jig
Tell her I am
Humors of Tralibane
Julia McMahon
Humors of Ballingarry
Road to Lurgan
Charley the Prayermaster
Fasten the leg in her
The Kneebuckle
The Flitch of Bacon
The Kilfinane Jig
Kitty of Oulart
Humors of Castle Comer

Reels

The Bantry lassies
Ladies Pantalettes
Flower of the Flock
Mountain Lark
Peggy on the settle
Downings Reel
The Ivy Leaf
Skibereen Lassies
My Honey in the House
The Callan Lassies
Maid in the Cherry tree
The Hag by the Fire

Hornpipes

Bantry Bay
Kit O'Mahony's
Glengariff Hornpipe
Thirty Years ago
Ballancollig in the Morning
Tomgraney Castle

Set Dances

The Job of Journey work
Hurry the Jug
The Spalpeen Fanach

Hope you find the list useful

Pkev

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## Jim Garber

Hey pkev: Thanks for your list. I sometimes read thru parts of O'Neill's and other tune books to see ones I might like. I will check out those.

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