# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Two Tuning Tips

## Andy Fielding

When you play a double-strung instrument like mandolin or mandola, you come to accept that you'll be spending more time tuning up than other people. Here are some tuning tips I've found helpful:

*1.* Electronic tuners are greatbut don't use them for _all_ your strings. The indicators on LED tuners move in small steps, and must always round off a bit to say "in tune". With single-strung instruments, this rounding-off is negligible. But with doubled strings, it can be maddeningor worse, it can make you doubt your own sense of unison pitch, which is usually much better than the tuner's.

   Instead, *use your tuner for only one string of each pair,* then go back and tune each 2nd string to its mate. (See tip #3 about this too.) It may seem more time-consuming, but you'll sound betterand the more you do it, the faster you'll get.

*2.* When you pick a string next to another string that's tuned on or around the same note, the unpicked string vibrates too. This is called "sympathetic vibration", and it's why piano tuners are careful to mute all but one string of each note when they start tuning.

   So when you're using your tuner, as soon as you pick the string you're tuning, *hold your pick against the other string* to keep it still. Then it won't interfere with your tuner's reading, and you'll get faster and better results.

*3.* It's better to *tune your 1st strings first, then your 2nd strings 2nd*, rather than doing each pair as you go. When you change a string's pitch, it changes the pressure on your mando's top, which subtly affects all the strings' pitches. Tuning your 1st strings, then your 2nd strings, evens out this affect as much as possible.

Cheers, Andy

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## Martin Whitehead

Andy, excellent advise.  I'm sorry I had to learn that stuff slowly over a period of years!  One additional piece of advice . . .

*4.*  It's better to tune up (from flat to sharp) than down to your target note.  This is because (1) most people can hear better whether a pitch is in tune when tuning up to it (I have no explanation why) and (2) even some of the better tuning gears have play in them.  By tuning up, tension is retained on the gear.  Tuning down can relieve tension on the gear, allowing slippage and going out of tune in the middle of a tune.

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## Rob Gerety

Good advice. I agree 100%.

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## Martin Whitehead

BTW Andy, you had three tuning tips.   :Wink:

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## Ivan Kelsall

*Andy* - That's really good advice for the 'clip-on' tuner & i agree totally. However, if somebody wants the best tuner that i've come across,there is one tuner that i use that's spot on,& perfectly capable of tuning a pair of strings in unison,that's the *Intelli IMT-103* 'dedicated' Violin tuner. I use one with an *Intelli IMP-100* clip on tuner lead.I use it clipped to the Mandolin bridge & the green indicator light is very,very accurate indeed & distinguishes perfectly one string from the other in a pair,
                                                                                                                                                  Ivan :Wink:

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## Rob Gerety

I have an Intelli 500 clip on.  I like it a lot.  I assume it is the same technology as your 103???  However - when clipped to the headstock there are many occasions when the tuner will show that both strings in a pair are spot on but my ear tells me otherwise.  I wonder if clipping to the bridge increases the accuracy.  

The problem of course is that when your tuner tells you both strings in a pair are in tune but your ear tells you no - how do you know which one is out?

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## Martin Whitehead

Trust your ear Rob.

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## Mandophyte

Most digital tuners (I have the Intelli IMT-500) claim to be accurate to 0.5%, although on the IMT-500 the divisions are 5% apart.

So if you tune two strings one and one down, that they just come into tune on the meter they could be just under 10% apart!

Tuning up is best as discussed above and if you do so that you just come into tune you may be lucky enough to be within 1-2% percentage points of each other and better than 5% from true pitch.

Apparently we humans can detect a pitch change at above 4% (wikipedia), so probably less that that is undetectable by most us.

Stay Tuned!

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## Bertram Henze

> I wonder if clipping to the bridge increases the accuracy.


I guess holding your ear to the headstock would reveal the problems an electronic tuner faces up there:
- what it must do: analyze the wave pattern and find the base frequency, use that to calculate the pitch to display.
- what it gets: a jumble of noises composed of the string oszillation between bridge and nut (the one that also makes it into the air) plus oszillations of several other parts of the strings and the instrument in general (which don't make it into the air).

All in all, the tuner on the headstock is as far away from the action as possible and performs a feat like talking to your bank account manager across the New York sewer system.

Seriously, don't hold your ear to the headstock, there's sharp string ends there. But try to attach your tuner to the bridge if mechanically feasible, because that's where the real uncluttered data come out. If that is not possible, the ear is the next best, because it gets what goes into the air, and that counts after all.

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## emitfo

Thanks, I'll give that tuning 1 of each pair a shot.  As far as 'deadening' the other strings I'm probably way too a___ retentive about it but I curl my other fingers onto all the other strings separately as well as the unison one to keep them from affecting the tone.  It was really awkward at first but now it's almost automatic.  I figured that the 'G' would be affected by 'D' and the 'A' by the 'E' since they are P5's apart.

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## Rob Gerety

> Trust your ear Rob.


I do.  I think I am fairly good at bringing one tone in tune with another - unison - and also I can hear other intervals fairly well.  But it is that first reference tone that is tricky.  I don't have perfect pitch - relative pitch yes, perfect pitch no.

Does anyone here tune with a tuning fork?  Could you explain the process you use start to finish?

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## Martin Whitehead

> I don't have perfect pitch - relative pitch yes, perfect pitch no.


I have met several people who claim to have perfect pitch, but I have yet to meet anyone who actually DOES have perfect pitch!   :Wink:

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## Bertram Henze

> Does anyone here tune with a tuning fork?  Could you explain the process you use start to finish?


I used to, back in the quiet days before I started to play in noisy pub sessions.
- how to produce the reference tone: ding the fork against some hard object (not the instrument) and hold its round tail end against your head (to hear the tone inside your head) or against the top of your mandolin (to hear the tone out of the instrument).
- tuning: tune one of the A strings to match the reference tone, then tune the other A string to match the first. Then tune the other strings against the A strings. If your instrument was way out of tune before, repeat this procedure to iron out mutual top pressure influences of the courses.

That's the procedure I learned in my violin lesson days, and I have seen it done by countless violinists in orchestras.

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## mandroid

I used a tuning fork, an A, for a long time., once the A is in tune with the fork, then  all the others are related to it, thru Octave and Unison relationships, at the 5th and 7th frets.

Re : perfect pitch , (see all the 'not hitting the side of the dumpster' jokes when you throw in the .. 
 [ name your target instrument here]  )  :Laughing:

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## 300win

All good advise. My question that I've asked my picking pals, is how in heck did we use to tune before they had tuners ? Course we had the little one with E,A,D, and G that you blow in, but they can get out of whack over time. We used to play at fiddler's conventions which were and still are popular here in my neck of the woods. Most times they are held in elementary schools, and sometimes there might be as many as 3 bands in one classroom practising before going into the competition, very noisy to say the least. One trick we used to do, and strange as it sounds it works, is place the headstock end against a window pane. For some reason this isolates your instrument from all the others somewhat, enough that you can hear it, well I used to could have, but my ears ain't what they used to be. Somehow we all were in tune back then, without all the gadgets we have now. I have a old Korg ca-20 with a clip I fasten to the bridge, it is dead on, but is not easy to use really in a ongoing picking situation. I recently got the new Korg clip on tuner kinda like the Intelli etc, but this one is more sensitive than any other I've owned. One of the things I do is always begin tuning with the top string in each course, then bring the other one to it with my ear. Just seems easier to me than going from the bottom to the top. another thing I do after getting the G's right is go over it again from E to G to fine tune any quirks I did when doing the initial tuning. Great advise on the other post guys, outstanding !

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## Martin Whitehead

A warning about tuning by ear off the 5th and 7th frets of the A string.  Inexpensive instruments, esp. those without a properly compensated bridge or those not properly set up, tend to go sharp as you work your way up the fretboard.  This may not even be perceptable when you play a tune or even a scale.  It is due to the string height above the fretboard becoming proportionally greater the further from the nut you are.  Consequently, when you tune against the 5th fret, for example, you might be tuning an open string slightly sharp and it will be proportionally sharper as you move up the fretboard.  Before relying on your ear you should be completely familiar with the tuning quirks of your instrument by comparing it against an electronic tuner.

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## Rob Gerety

That get into intonation.  Can't tune well if you don't have intonation set reasonably well. 

I remember in the old days the band would take time together to tune up one by one and keep quite for the other guy.  Took a few minutes but worked fine.

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## HddnKat

> I remember in the old days the band would take time together to tune up one by one and keep quite for the other guy.  Took a few minutes but worked fine.


Those were the days!  My solution now is to arrive at practice 30 mins early to tune up before the drummer gets there.

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## ...and Master of None

> I have met several people who claim to have perfect pitch, but I have yet to meet anyone who actually DOES have perfect pitch!


A friend of mine does.  Of course, he has an "advantage" in that he is blind and also has that wierd syndrome where he "sees" different pitches as different shades of color.  (I thought he was pulling my leg about that last part until I saw a documentary about it on Discovery channel or PBS - it's actually a well studied, if rare, phenomenon and isn't restricted to those who are blind.)

Anyway, he has perfect absolute pitch (it always amazes me when I watch him take all the strings off his guitar, clean the fretboard, then restring it and tune it up perfectly with no reference).  I don't envy him the ability, though.  He has spent untold thousands on having guitars that sound great to me reworked and reworked to get the intonation up and down the neck as close as humanly possible.  He also has a hard time actually enjoying listening to music, live or recorded, because even a slight mistuning sticks out like a throbbing sore thumb to him.

John

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## mandolirius

> I do.  I think I am fairly good at bringing one tone in tune with another - unison - and also I can hear other intervals fairly well.  But it is that first reference tone that is tricky.  I don't have perfect pitch - relative pitch yes, perfect pitch no.
> 
> Does anyone here tune with a tuning fork?  Could you explain the process you use start to finish?


I did for about 25 years (have recently gone to a strobe tuner). I found using an "A" fork frustrating so I invested in a G fork. I find it easier tuning low to high, so the G fork was a great investment. Even though I now have a very accurate strobe tuner, I use my fork sometimes. It makes me feel good to know I can still tune without electronic aid if I have to. As for process, I tune the G strings and them tune the rest by ear. Then I check at the seventh fret and also the octave.

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## Andy Fielding

> It's better to tune up (from flat to sharp) than down to your target note. This is because (1) most people can hear better whether a pitch is in tune when tuning up to it..


Absolutely, Martin. Thanks for mentioning that.




> BTW Andy, you had three tuning tips.


Ack! I remembered the third tip after I'd already started the thread. Oh well, absentminded musicians...




> Thanks, I'll give that tuning 1 of each pair a shot. As far as 'deadening' the other strings I'm probably way too a___ retentive about it but I curl my other fingers onto all the other strings separately...


Actually, it's quite easy to mute one string while tuning the otherI should've been more specific.

In any string pair, just play the string closest to you and, in the same motion, let your pick rest against the other string. Voila.

For this reason, it's also a good idea to tune each of the strings that are closest to you, then go back and tune their mates.




> Does anyone here tune with a tuning fork? Could you explain the process you use start to finish?


Sure. It's an oddly low-tech method these days, so you might get some strange looksand I don't think there'd be any advantages in terms of time or effort. 

That said, having used tuning forks in the past, here's how I'd use one with a mando:

1. Get a standard "A" fork (actual frequency 440 Hz, if you wanna be technical.). It's the same note as a mando's A string.

2. Tap the fork on your knee (the traditional place), then hold it up your ear to hear the note, or hold the fork's handle end against a hard object. (Personally, I'd use a table or something, not the top of my mandolintuning forks are metal, and I'm a scratch paranoid.)

3. Tune one A string to that note, then tune the other one to that.

4. Tune a G string to an A string by playing the G string at the 14th fret (the same A as the A string), then tune your other G string to the first.

5. Repeat step 4 for your D strings by playing an A at the 7th fret.

6. Tune an E string by playing an E on your A string (7th fret), then tune your other E string to that.




> I have met several people who claim to have perfect pitch, but I have yet to meet anyone who actually DOES have perfect pitch!


I do, actually. As a kid, I'd hear random notes (mom hits pot lid on counter, teacher plays some notes on piano in class, etc.) and I could always identify them.

I think perfect pitch is overrated. It's just a kind of parlor trick. It's much more useful to have _relative_ pitch, the ability to hear the relationships between notes once you know what one note is. And almost all good musicians have that.

Also, perfect pitch usually means just knowing the _names_ of notes you hear. No doubt some people's pitch is precise enough to tune instruments. Maybe people with perfect pitch can learn to be that accuratebut personally, I'd rather use my time learning to be a better musician, not a better magician.   :Wink: 




> ...How in heck did we use to tune before they had tuners?


Usually by playing notes on a piano. Even a piano that hasn't been tuned in years should still be within a 1/2 step of where you should be.

Otherwise, I guess people just guessed. I shiver to think about all the instruments that must've been tuned _way_ too high for lack of any reference.




> A warning about tuning by ear off the 5th and 7th frets of the A string. Inexpensive instruments, esp. those without a properly compensated bridge or those not properly set up, tend to go sharp as you work your way up the fretboard...


That's true. Before trying to use a tuning fork, you'd want to be especially sure your bridge was in the right place so your tuning was correct up and down the neck. Otherwise, it's a recipe for craziness.




> I [used a tuning fork] for about 25 years...I found using an "A" fork frustrating so I invested in a G fork...


Do they make forks for the same low G as a mando's G strings (one octave below the standard A fork)? Then you could tune the G strings first and work your way up from there by playing each next string's note on the current string's 7th fret.

But again, I think a $20 tuner is more practical, even if it isn't an "acoustic" method.   :Smile:

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## mandroid

Holding the ringing tuning fork in your teeth  allows you to hear it , and have both hands free.

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## Doug Hoople

It's been said, but I'll repeat... 

Always tune up to pitch. Never tune down to pitch.

It's not so much that we can hear better. It's just that even the best tuners will slip if you open a gap in the gears by tuning down. Tuning up leaves continuous bearing pressure on the gears, and they won't slip. 

I used to tune randomly (i.e., down or up, whichever) and could never understand why I was always out of tune. Since I started tuning exclusively up, I've been able to stay in tune consistently for long periods of time. 

The quality of your tuners is irrelevant. They all are capable of slipping. I have Waverly tuners on mine and they'll slip if tuned down. You can get some pretty crummy tuners to hold tune simply by always tuning up. 

Extra credit: It was totally redundant to say "Waverly tuners" above. If you say Waverly in a mandolin setting, you'll probably always mean tuners. Nevertheless, I was able to sidestep the plural spelling hazard for the word Waverly by including this little redundancy.  :Smile:

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## Doug Hoople

Another tip: 

Tune from your lower strings up, especially when making large changes (like when changing strings or repositioning your bridge). 

When you tune from E down to G, by the time you get done with your G, you almost always have to go back and clean up your E and A again, sometimes quite substantially.

But when you tune from G up to E, you generally don't have to go back and clean up your G & D.

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## jefflester

> BTW Andy, you had three tuning tips.


That, plus your #4 made me think of....

_Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again._

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## Andy Alexander

> It's been said, but I'll repeat... 
> 
> Always tune up to pitch. Never tune down to pitch.
> 
> It's not so much that we can hear better. It's just that even the best tuners will slip if you open a gap in the gears by tuning down. Tuning up leaves continuous bearing pressure on the gears, and they won't slip. 
> 
> I used to tune randomly (i.e., down or up, whichever) and could never understand why I was always out of tune. Since I started tuning exclusively up, I've been able to stay in tune consistently for long periods of time. 
> 
> The quality of your tuners is irrelevant. They all are capable of slipping. I have Waverly tuners on mine and they'll slip if tuned down. You can get some pretty crummy tuners to hold tune simply by always tuning up. 
> ...


  The tuners are usually not to blame when strings slip.  Usually it is the string hanging up in the nut groove and then slipping as it is played.  Lubricating the groove with graphite (pencil) will help as will tuning up rather than down.

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## AlanN

Yes to the pencil twirl in the grooves (bridge, too).

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## Rob Gerety

Not to say that it isn't best to tune up to pitch  - I don't think there is much disagreement about that, right?  Avoids problems.

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## Mike Bunting

Bands should use one tuner to avoid discrepancies between tuners.

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## Miked

In a different thread someone pionted out that you can put your ear up to the body of the mando and hear the differential frequency between a pair of strings.  When that low frequency oscillation goes down to 0 Hz, voila!  It's a little awkward, but if you want to get a pair spot-on, that's a pretty good way.

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## Rob Gerety

Yea, but you have to know which of the pair is out - otherwise you will carefully fine tune things so they are in tune to one another but still out of tune.

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## MandoNicity

I've used a tuning fork and only a tuning fork for years, going back to my days as a violist.  I have a really good blue steel fork,(A-440 ofc).  I bang it on my knee and hold it to the bone behind my ear, and then I place the fork on the bridge to fine tune it.  I wouldn't know what to do with one of those electronic thingys.   :Wink:

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## Martin Whitehead

> I do, actually . . . I think perfect pitch is overrated.


I would hazard to guess that perfect pitch could actually be a curse.  I think of all the ringing tones I hear throughout the day and wonder how many of them are ALMOST in tune.  I can't imagine having that feeling I sometimes get "Oh, that is FLAT (or sharp)!" 97 times a day!  It falls right behind fingernails on the chalkboard.

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## Pete Hicks

I have noticed many that players who have problems tuning have not put their strings on properly.  On the mandolin it's especially important to bring the string around  and under itself so that it locks at the tuning peg when you tune up.  Wraps alone do NOT hold. I have also seen many players readjust their tuning by ear AFTER using their tuner.  They almost invariably wind up sharp unless they are fine tuning one string of a pair.  Of course, the intonation must be set properly.
If you happen to play with someone with perfect pitch, let him/her be your tuner.
My favorite tuner is the little diamond shaped one withe the bright green light that doubles as a night light for getting around festivals in the dark.
I guess that was about 5 cents worth.

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## Kevin K

To second what Alan said, don't forget to pencil the grooves in nut and saddle, it helps.

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## Andy Fielding

> I would hazard to guess that perfect pitch could actually be a curse. I think of all the ringing tones I hear throughout the day and wonder how many of them are ALMOST in tune.


I can't speak for everyone, but for me, it's not like that. Sitting here at the desk, I can whistle an A, then go over to the piano and hear the same note when I play an A. But when I hear other tones, they're just what they areI don't have to make any judgments. Good thing... Otherwise it'd be pretty challenging just to venture outdoors, or turn on the TV, or do just about anything.




> Not to say that it isn't best to tune up to pitch - I don't think there is much disagreement about that, right? Avoids problems.


I agree with it. At the very least, why put more tension on your instrument than necessary? I'm not fond of breaking strings, either (although when it happens, it _is_ about the most exciting thing that happens here in the 'burbs). We mandolinists are "high-strung" enough.  :?)

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## 300win

> I have noticed many that players who have problems tuning have not put their strings on properly.  On the mandolin it's especially important to bring the string around  and under itself so that it locks at the tuning peg when you tune up.  Wraps alone do NOT hold. I have also seen many players readjust their tuning by ear AFTER using their tuner.  They almost invariably wind up sharp unless they are fine tuning one string of a pair.  Of course, the intonation must be set properly.
> If you happen to play with someone with perfect pitch, let him/her be your tuner.
> My favorite tuner is the little diamond shaped one withe the bright green light that doubles as a night light for getting around festivals in the dark.
> I guess that was about 5 cents worth.


Locking the string on the post ?. I can't tell any differance between doing that or making 4-5 good wraps. I've went both ways, no more locking for me.

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## T Little

I was at a workshop with Herschel Sizemore and when tuning he would push on the string afterward with the pick to stretch it. I asked him why and he said that if you tune up to the correct pitch and then start playing, the playing will stretch the string and you end up flat. So if you tune a bit sharp and then stretch it to bring it down to the correct pitch it won't stretch further when you're playing. I've been doing it and it's really a good tip. He knows his stuff.

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## Perry

Another tuning tip:

If you're string is a wee bit sharp push down on it (in the area where you pick) instead of using the tuning peg. This will bring the pitch down without messing with the tension on the tuner.

I got this tip from Tim Stafford's guitar DVD.

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## DougC

Temperment the musical kind, not the human condition, is the averaging of small differences among musical pitches. One can have an absolutely perfectly tuned A and E for example, using the most expensive electronic tuner and still have to adjust all of the strings once the whole instrument is 'tuned up'. 
Our beginner's orchestra tunes their instruments with electronic tuners, then the conductor comes and asks to hear everyone play an 'A' and wow, what an awful sound we make! So then we all tune to the piano, which is at least a half a step higher. Makes me cry in pain every time. But at least we are 'tempered'.

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## Martin Whitehead

> I was at a workshop with Herschel Sizemore and when tuning he would push on the string afterward with the pick to stretch it.


Indeed.  I've been doing that for a couple of decades.  Rather than merely push on it though, I actually pull the string up and away half an inch or so.  I never have problems with going out of tune with new strings that away.

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## Martin Whitehead

> I have noticed many that players who have problems tuning have not put their strings on properly.  On the mandolin it's especially important to bring the string around  and under itself so that it locks at the tuning peg when you tune up.  Wraps alone do NOT hold.


Pete I have heard this before, but it has not been my experience.  I have strung with the locking method, with several wraps w/o paying attention to "locking" and recently with just a couple of wraps.  I have never had an issue with string slippage.  I don't know why some people do.  Maybe it's the instrument.  A mystery to me anyway.

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## Rob Gerety

I have used the lock method for years and it is definitely secure - so I just tend to do it that way.  But I have tried the no - lock method too.  My experience is that it works fine if the posts are concave in profile which forces the wraps to tighten against themselves and up against the string where it passes through the post hole - but I have had some slipping with posts that are cylindrical.

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## Doug Hoople

> I have used the lock method for years and it is definitely secure - so I just tend to do it that way.  But I have tried the no - lock method too.  My experience is that it works fine if the posts are concave in profile which forces the wraps to tighten against themselves and up against the string where it passes through the post hole - but I have had some slipping with posts that are cylindrical.


A day spent as jib trimmer on a sailboat is very instructive in understanding the friction behaviors of a winch (which is essentially what the tuning pins are). 

If you have enough wraps on the winch, there will be no slippage, and no additional "locking" is required. On a sailboat, tangling the bitter end under one of the working wraps ("locking" on a tuning peg) is a recipe for disaster, and the wraps hold without it. 

If, however, you have too few wraps on the winch, you'll slip all day long. 

You can stop the slipping, even with too few wraps, by locking the bitter end under a working wrap. That's one of the reasons, I think, that it's commonly recommended for tuning pins. The number of wraps becomes far less significant. 

Disaster on a boat, but no problem on a musical instrument.

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## Rob Gerety

In my sailing days (long time ago) I liked to have just enough slippage so I could quickly and easily release a bit of sheet for better sail trim if the skipper fell off the wind a bit. If I remember correctly, and this may date me, our winches had jam cleats available for long tacks.  I guess the modern winches are self tailing.  I've never used a self tailing winch.  

Brings back old memories just talking about winches - I can hear the winches working in my head like it was yesterday - I can almost smell the salt in the air. 

With mandolins you don't have to worry about things like sudden gusts of wind laying you right over.

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## billkilpatrick

> Holding the ringing tuning fork in your teeth  allows you to hear it , and have both hands free.


wince ...

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## Doug Hoople

> In my sailing days (long time ago) I liked to have just enough slippage so I could quickly and easily release a bit of sheet for better sail trim if the skipper fell off the wind a bit. If I remember correctly, and this may date me, our winches had jam cleats available for long tacks.  I guess the modern winches are self tailing.  I've never used a self tailing winch.  
> 
> Brings back old memories just talking about winches - I can hear the winches working in my head like it was yesterday - I can almost smell the salt in the air. 
> 
> With mandolins you don't have to worry about things like sudden gusts of wind laying you right over.


Yes, exactly! 

With just enough wraps on the winch, and the bitter end held in your hand, you could ease the bitter end to slip the whole thing gradually. 

Which brings us to the essence of this discussion... 

In order to avoid slippage on your tuning pegs, you need 

1) to have enough wraps on your winch
2) immobilization of your bitter end

It's 2) that causes the trouble, which is why many choose to "lock" the bitter end under a wrap. There's always the possibility that, even with enough wraps on your winch, an insecure bitter end will come loose. A loose bitter end can and will undo the best of wraps. 

So I guess the answer is that, even with the right number of wraps, if you don't have a reliable way of immobilizing your bitter end, you'd better be a pathetic sailor and opt for trapping your bitter end under one of your good wraps. 

Count yourself as good with metaphors if you actually followed this all the way here.  Believe it or not, it stands up to analysis! (See the m7b5 thread for the subreference on this!)

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## Rob Gerety

As long as your not playing outside on a really gusty day you'll probably be safe. Fortunately, we don't have much need for a quick release on our mandolins. 

This has me thinking about sailing!  I miss it. 

But, to get back to planet earth here - if your tuner post has a concave profile, (like Waverly tuners), the no lock method works well with just a couple of wraps because the wraps are forced up to the post hole and lock the bitter end pretty solidly.

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## kazbah_707

If the following three statements apply, I've found tuning by harmonics works really well.

1) - You trust your ear
2) - You're comfortable at both generating and hearing harmonics
3) - You don't have a drummer/guitarist/banjo drowning out your listening.

Since I play OM mostly, I tune my D to one of the guitarists, since they're the same pitch. Then the other D.
Then 7th-fret harmonic on G should = 12th-fret harmonic on D
The same 7th-lower => 12th-higher relationship holds across the other strings.

Hope this helps someone.......Alan

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## Andy Fielding

> I have noticed many that players who have problems tuning have not put their strings on properly. On the mandolin it's especially important to bring the string around and under itself so that it locks at the tuning peg when you tune up. Wraps alone do NOT hold.


Pete, I'm sure some pegs are better than others, and some mandos are more stable than others... But I'm one of those people who just gives the string a few quick loops around the peg, then slips the end through above them and pulls it tight (there usually isn't time for more than that during a show, and that's where I break my strings). No "locking" here, and I don't have the problems you describe.

Of course, _new_ strings stretch and need retuning no matter how you put them on. But with strings that've been on for a while, if the temperature and humidity haven't changed, I often open the case the next day and find I don't need to retune. 




> Our beginner's orchestra tunes their instruments with electronic tuners, then the conductor comes and asks to hear everyone play an 'A' and wow, what an awful sound we make! So then we all tune to the piano, which is at least a half a step higher. Makes me cry in pain every time. But at least we are 'tempered'.


I sat onstage during a recent rehearsal of the Pasadena Orchestra. (My manager friend introduced me as "a composer". Everyone was impressed, not knowing that the biggest group I'd ever written for was 7 pieces.) 

I was quite surprised to hear how out-of-tune the orchestra seemed. Now, this is absolutely _not_ a put-down of the PO... Apparently, it's how every orchestra sounds when you're in the middle of them. When I later listened from a seat in the house, they sounded perfectly in-tune. Once the sound has traveled a bit, it evens out. It's really funny how that works.




> Lubricating the groove with graphite (pencil) will help...


Yeah, that's always a good idea. It probably makes it easier to keep the bridge squarely seated when putting on new strings, toothey don't pull on the bridge quite as much.




> In a different thread someone pointed out that you can put your ear up to the body of the mando and hear the differential frequency between a pair of strings. When that low frequency oscillation goes down to 0 Hz, voila!


Yep, that's how the piano tuners do it (the good ones, that isthose who don't use a meter for _everything_). When two strings are out of tune, they produce "beats", and as you tune them closer to each other, these "beats" speed upuntil finally, when the strings are matched, the beats disappear. It takes a bit of practice to hear it, but when you do, you wonder how you could've missed it.

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## JeffD

Tuning with a tuner is so much better than before. Its quicker, its more accurate, it can be done in a noisey hall, and if everyone is tuning a few clicks down to match the house piano, you can easily accomodate.

While I have always been a stickler for tuning, I think these days my ear for playing with others out of tune more accurate and my am less patient with small drifts.

Of course you trust your ear after using the machine. I find I have not lost any ability to entirely tune by ear, but I am very thankful that I don't have to.

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## ...and Master of None

On the subject of tuning tips, I'll add my $.02 - turn off the ceiling fan!  I never will forget the time a friend and I went nuts for about a half hour trying to figure out why we couldn't get the "beat note" to completely disappear - when we finally realized that the doppler effect of the fan over our heads was messing us up!

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## pops1

If you touch your tuning fork to the top of your bridge it will still sound thru the mandolin, but won't be able to scratch the top

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## Jan Ellefsen

Even though I have been tuning pianos by ear for 30 years, I still use a clip on tuner when tuning my mandolin, especially on gigs. I must admit that I end up doing some small adjustments by ear most of the time, if theres not too much noise in the background. If you tune by ear with a tuning fork you must be aware that there must be a slow oscillation between the different string pairs. As an example: if you play an A on the second fret of the G and an open D together (a fourth), the oscillation between them should be ca. one per second. The oscillation between an open G and an open D should be somewhat slower, close to one every other second. (Fifths go slower than fourths in the same position, fifths should be narrower and fourths wider than a non-oscillating interval). The oscillation between the notes in an interval gets faster the higher up you go. 
Also, Herschel Sizemore is an experienced player, and has a good point when he stretches the strings. The reason for this is that the string passes over the nut and the bridge with an angle, and when you tighten it, the tension will be highest between the tuner and the nut, a little less between the nut and the bridge and even less between the bridge and the tailpiece. After you start playing the tension will gradually become the same in all three places and it will go out of tune.
But I will also say that my friend Fred, CF5 in this forum, had a point when he said: Here we are, two piano tuners playing these untunable instruments.

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## fishtownmike

> I have met several people who claim to have perfect pitch, but I have yet to meet anyone who actually DOES have perfect pitch!


I often wondered if we changed the standard tuning reference pitch from 440hz which has happened over the last few hundred years would this confuse those who have perfect pitch?

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## rico mando

a monty python fan and i thought i was alone

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## Andy Fielding

> That, plus your #4 made me think of.... _Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency..._





> a monty python fan and i thought i was alone...


Indeed, when you carry on long enough with any esoteric topic like this, it often takes on Pythonesque qualities. I'm surprised no one has said anything from the Cheese Shop sketch yet.

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## Mike Snyder

........................she turned me into a newt.

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## TurboMick

Most of those people work at Guitar Center

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## TurboMick

That think they have perfict pitch

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## flatt

> All good advise. My question that I've asked my picking pals, is how in heck did we use to tune before they had tuners ? Course we had the little one with E,A,D, and G that you blow in....


In the early 80's I played in a rootsy blues/country duo with an amazing country-pickin' Strat player. At that time I played Fender Rhodes and the Korg "Hammond" organ. I would play him the notes to tune up to.

Funny, he NEVER heard it, but sometimes he would tune a wee bit flat across-the-board and I would say to myself _"Mmmm, a funky, laid-back kinda night ahead, I think"_. 

On other nights he would tune up a wee bit sharp and I would say to myself _"Hold on, boy! You're in for one helluva ride!"_

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## SincereCorgi

> I often wondered if we changed the standard tuning reference pitch from 440hz which has happened over the last few hundred years would this confuse those who have perfect pitch?


Perfect pitch it a weird thing, there are some very interesting studies available online that I am too lazy to lookup but the_ gist_ is that if you learned your 'perfect' pitch on an out-of-tune piano, you're stuck with it. It's not so much 'perfect pitch' as 'mom's piano' pitch. Also, most people actually have a little of it- if you ask the majority of people to sing a bit of a popular radio staple, they will usually be surprisingly accurate when it comes to getting the pitch right.

If we changed A from 440 to 432 tomorrow, it would irritate the hell out of the existing 'perfect' pitch-havers but the new batch of piano toddlers would learn it at 432. There's a great disparity in the accuracy level across subjects, and it's really hard to pick it up if you didn't learn it as a little kid. Interestingly, apparently it's not really *that* useful (I heard those grapes are sour, too) and sometimes hampers individuals when they need to transpose or do other commonplace musical activities. Another fun fact: as people age, their 'perfect' pitch drifts sharp for some reason.

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## Andy Fielding

Of course, there are those who think that "perfect pitch" is the ability to toss a banjo into a dumpster without hitting the sides.

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## Andy Fielding

BTW, I should never have mentioned the name of that orchestra. What got into me? Ack. They're really good, no kidding.

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## mculliton123

Cheddar? No, I'm afraid we don't much call for it around these parts, Sir.

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## cutterflys

Here's my take (please pardon if I mention something previously posted):

With an electronic tuner (I use the Intelli tuner) tune all strings to open pitch going through the process twice. This will apply the overall normal stress on strings and instrument's top.

Fret each string pair at the fifth fret adjust as necessary by ear and tuner. This serves as a "happy medium" allowing some compensation for the slight intonation differences and allows the ear to hear the string pair at a different frequency (I sometimes check each string pair at the seventh fret as well).

Play a few chords that your ear picks up on well (my ear likes the two finger D chord "2002" as far as picking out anything sharp or flat).

When the rest of the mandolin is in good order ie. properly wound strings, bridge set for proper G-E intonation this has served me well. It will also help to train your ear.

Hope It Helps

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## 300win

> Of course, there are those who think that "perfect pitch" is the ability to toss a banjo into a dumpster without hitting the sides.


Thanks, andy this got me laughing. The banjo picker I play with now is the same I used to pick with long ago in our youth. Back then he had a Baldwin Ode D I think was the model. Anyway a very great sounding banjo, lots of crack and pop to it, { I know because I can pick banjo also, but mandolin is my main thing } and my friend could play melodic on it as good as anybody. Now we are in our mid to late 50's. I know I can't hear as good as I once did and admit it, but my pal refuses to believe his ear is bad, heck he can't even get it in tune sometimes with a tuner. Also he has a Gibson Scruggs model now which is a very good banjo, but he has changed to the sloppy loose head and the what I call tubby sound. He can still pick good, but his banjo sounds like cra* now. Sometimes it gets on my nerves hearing it, a bad tone an not quite in tune. It's rough ! So I do feel like either grabbing it out of his hand and taking the resonator off and tightening the dang hide, or throwing it in a dumpster.

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## Andy Fielding

> Thanks, andy this got me laughing. The banjo picker I play with now is the same I used to pick with long ago in our youth... He has a Gibson Scruggs model now which is a very good banjo, but he has changed to the sloppy loose head and the what I call tubby sound... So I do feel like either grabbing it out of his hand and taking the resonator off and tightening the dang hide, or throwing it in a dumpster.


Yikes—it's an actual calfskin head? Like the old days, before they invented mylar and enabled banjos to actually, you know, play specific notes? 

_[30 seconds later]_ My gosh, you *can* still get calfskin heads. Well, some people are into that "über-authentic sound"... You have my sympathies, dude.

At this point I'll confess that I do also play banjo (as well as a few other instruments, he said, modestly). But I'd no sooner consider using a skin head than I'd tell my wife that, being female, she wasn't smart enough to vote.

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