# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  Just how scared should you be of ebay?

## f5loar

If this don't scare you about buying mandolins ebay nothing will. Both running at same time.  Check both out before the first one gets pulled:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1936-Gibson-Fern...QQcmdZViewItem
and again at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1936-Gibson-Fern...QQcmdZViewItem
Now who wouldn't want to save $18,000 on the same mandolin?
I've already reported the first one.

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## Kip Welty

i offered em 100 bucs

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## MikeEdgerton

The second one is Mitch Simpson. He's had this up before.

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## Dave Greenspoon

OK, now what am I missing here?  How do you know that this is a bogus mando?  I see the headstock binding doesn't match the rest of the instrument, and that the fretboard extension seems out of place, but what are the real giveaways here?

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## f5loar

How can 2 sellers living 1000s of miles apart sell the exact same mandolin on ebay at the same time.  There's your sign!  As stated, Mitch Simpson of GA owns the mandolin and the 2nd listing for a lessor price stole his whole ad and photos.  What is scary is had not the real seller still had his running at the same time how would know?  You wouldn't.  The 2nd ad is very real except the last line about contact seller before bid.  Another scray fact is I reported it this morning and ebay still has not stopped the bogus one.

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## f5loar

Oh and Dave, there is nothing bogas about the real '36 Fern. It's the 2nd ad that is bogus.  Nothing funny about headstock binding. Nothing funny about fretboard extension.  All componets correct for year stated.  This is a very nice Fern and to be honest I'm shocked the real one has not sold yet at this price. To stay a '36 F5 Fern is rare is an understatement.  Any 30's all original F5 is rare.

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## Dave Greenspoon

Ahh, now I get it.  It's about the hijack!  Thanks for the help.

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## grassrootphilosopher

Like I mentioned in the other thread, ebay does not care about customer relation.

In a case like this one I would not think about paying that kind of money without scheduling a personal handover or a transfer in person via a trusted individual. 

The mandolin community that might consider the purchase of an instrument this valuable is small, no doubt. I wonder if anyone that is not much into playing music would buy an instrument like this one for the investment purpose alone. I have my doubts. Therefore I think that prospective buyers would insist in a personal transfer. Here the "game" would stop, I guess. 

What I think in these cases is that data mining is what it´s all about. People contact these criminals for whatever purpose (like telling them off, making fun of their scam scheme, offering them low money or even offering them the buy now price). These gangsters therefore have email and maybe other data (through a little research), that they can use for other schemes. This is what´s really scary.

So go law and track these folks down and give them a hard time.

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## MikeEdgerton

Let me expand on that a bit. We all tend to get our hackles up and want to tell scammers off, make their lives tougher, let them know we're on to them. We fire off an e-mail, maybe a few dozen. The problem is that in most cases (not all) these guys are better at being mean than we are. I'm a computer professional, I work in this field and have for many years. I've seen people absolutely devistated by making an argument personal with a hacker. I did it once and the guy managed to hack an online account that wasn't even associated with the account that made it personal to the tune of several hundred dollars out of my pocket. That was many years ago. Many of you post a lot of personal information online, almost anyone can be found online. Don't become a target. Report these things but don't feel the need to show these guys how smart you are by getting into a personal war. Nothing online is anonymous no matter what you think.

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## John Flynn

Mike: Take the "Gandhi" approach if you want, that's your choice, but I believe in what Edmund Burke said: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Also, I disagree that it is a computer issue. It is a criminal issue. These folks are no different from any other kind of criminal, they just use different methods and tools. 

I applaud those people to strike back and realize it IS personal. The hackers and scammers have already made it personal. Think about this: What would happen if every honest person online committed to full out assualts on these folks? My guess is that it would cut into their profits, make them desperate, get more of them caught. Making crime personal is the fuel that gets that kind of thing done.

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## MikeEdgerton

I don't take the Gandhi approach, I report everything. If I err it's on the side of caution. Throw that to the wind if you want and make it personal with a criminal. Hopefully you don't end up with more problems than you figured. I do this for a living and I don't play with fire, you can choose to do so if you'd like. If you even think you're denting a scammers business by throwing yourself into the fray on a personal nature you don't understand what they are doing. They exist by the sheer volume of things and you're just a blip. Witness the way they just keep popping up. There are methods of reporting in most sales venues. Concentrate your efforts there, you have a better chance of slowing it down. Take it to a personal level and you're now at a disadvantage simply because they know more about you than you know about them. Good luck, I hope this works out for you.

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## Steve Cantrell

Ditto to what Mike has said. I've been in IT Security for several years and before that was a fraud investigator for a multi-billion dollar business. You'd be surprised at what kind of info someone with knowledge of public databases can gather and then use to make your life a torment. There are good channels out there for reporting this scum, and somewhere behind them is a guy buried under a mountain of leads to chase. It takes time, but it usually turns out for the best.

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## TomTyrrell

I agree with Mike on this one. All of these scammers have "Delete" keys and they know how to use them. They will NOT be bothered by any emails they receive. Send a thousand if you want, they won't be bothered. If they have some spare time they might use whatever info you send them to make a little more money hacking your identity but there is nothing you can do to make life or "business" difficult for them. You are wasting your time.

As far as blaming eBay for all this, it isn't their fault. If you want to report the bogus listing don't tell eBay (unless the _real_ listing is YOURS), tell the guy with the _real_ listing. HE can report the bogus listing as a copy of HIS listing. Joe Public cannot do that. Joe Public has no standing with eBay. It doesn't matter how much of an expert you think you are, to eBay you are just another PITA trying to get somebody's auction cancelled.

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## Skip Kelley

Mike, That is excellent advice to be extremely cautious online! There are some people who are just plain evil who will do anything.

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## ApK

As another IT pro and old-school hacker, I agree, Mike, Steve and Tom have it right.  If you try to engage, you will at absolute best accomplish nothing, more likely get frustrated at your failure, and at worst get seriously damaged yourself.

But, Tom, I'm pretty certain you are mistaken about one thing.
Joe Public can and should report it and eBay does process and act on those reports.
Just like if it was not a duplicate but some other obvious illegal ad.
The owner of a competing ad is probably MORE likely to be the PITA than a disinterested potential bidder.

Observe, and report. 
It is very surprising that the first ad is still up.  I've just reported it as well.

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## JEStanek

Think of it as if it were a real world crime instead of a cyber crime.  If I saw someone shop lifting an object in a store, I would tell the store.  Would I go up to the thief personally and tell them I'm on to them?  Nope.  I don't know anything about them, what they might do immediately to me.  Telling the store is safe and gets their trained staff to deal with the problem and keeps me safe.

Jamie

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## Mike Bromley

Oh yes, and if you put your birthday up on a BBS, try to make sure you lie about your age.  That's the first thing a harvester will get, and a very essential piece of info!  And for all of you lovely folks with classifieds on here, try NOT to put your street address in the ad.  That makes you a sitting duck.

The above remarks fall into the category of:  "don't advertise", that is, don't make it easy for the thieves to nail ya!

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## TomTyrrell

> But, Tom, I'm pretty certain you are mistaken about one thing.
> Joe Public can and should report it and eBay does process and act on those reports.
> Just like if it was not a duplicate but some other obvious illegal ad.
> The owner of a competing ad is probably MORE likely to be the PITA than a disinterested potential bidder.
> 
> Observe, and report. 
> It is very surprising that the first ad is still up.  I've just reported it as well.


You reported ONE of the listings as a fraud. How does eBay know that one is the fraud? Maybe this item was listed before and the _first_ one is the copy. Maybe they are BOTH copies of a previous listing. EBay can't just take the word of an uninvolved party, they have to do some research. Research takes time. Time costs money.

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## TomTyrrell

> Oh yes, and if you put your birthday up on a BBS, try to make sure you lie about your age.  That's the first thing a harvester will get, and a very essential piece of info!  And for all of you lovely folks with classifieds on here, try NOT to put your street address in the ad.  That makes you a sitting duck.
> 
> The above remarks fall into the category of:  "don't advertise", that is, don't make it easy for the thieves to nail ya!


Another thing that can make you a target is listing your inventory of "Things To Steal" in your signature block.

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## ApK

> You reported ONE of the listings as a fraud. How does eBay know that one is the fraud? Maybe this item was listed before and the _first_ one is the copy. Maybe they are BOTH copies of a previous listing. EBay can't just take the word of an uninvolved party, they have to do some research. Research takes time. Time costs money.


Yeah, I made that same point about research, time and money that other thread, remember?
Doesn't matter who reports it.  The bad guy can report the real listing and claim the good guy copied him.  They have to investigate no matter what.  And they do.  Sometimes it's not as quickly as some people would like.  My automated report said they will likely get to checking it out within 72 hours, and I suspect the more reports from customers that they get, the quicker they might look a particular issue.
And, as it happens, many fraud ads are detected and pulled sooner than that.
As I said in that other other thread, I think they do a pretty reasonable job considering what has to be done.
Maybe the SafeHarbor department just needs to hire some extra people for the holiday fraud season.

ApK
p.s. while both ads are still up, I'll make a prediction:  either, 1) the ad we believe is the fraud will disappear within 24 hours.  or 2) both ads will be suspended within 24 hrs while they sort it out (the duplicate serials is a flag no matter which one is real).  Mark my words.  Really..check your watches and MARK!  ;-)

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## allenhopkins

> Another thing that can make you a target is listing your inventory of "Things To Steal" in your signature block.


Hey, Tom, I'm taking this personally...!!

In general agreement with the tenor of the last few replies.  I think many of us want to be Charles Bronson (in the _Death Wish_ films), exacting personal revenge against the evil around us.  Especially when we can do it sitting at our keyboards, without having to tuck a Glock in our pants and cruise the mean streets.  On the other hand, unless we've been personally swindled, the best course would seem to be to use our specialized mandolin expertise to inform the auction site administrators that there's a fox in the henhouse.

As for being scared of eBay -- I'm not, and I don't think most careful purchasers need to be.  I'd never spend $31K or $49K on an on-line transaction over an auction site.  I wouldn't spend a tenth of that on an instrument I hadn't played, from a seller I didn't know, even with the protections offered by PayPal or my credit card company.

I've bought about a half-dozen instruments on eBay: Merrill aluminum bowl-back, Howe-Orme mandolinetto, Oscar Schmidt Guitaro autoharp, Polk-A-Lay-Lee (don't ask!), Mexican Weissenborn copy, and two Johnson resonator instruments, a ukulele and a tri-cone guitar.  Most I've spent was $450.  Never risked more than I could afford to lose, always checked seller feedback, and only went the eBay route when the instruments were unobtainable locally, or through the Internet sellers (like Elderly) that I know I can trust.  So by being sensible and cautious, and knowing a little bit about the territory, I felt that I didn't need to be scared.

There's another current thread about a "Gibson F-5" eBay scam, in which F5Loar states that the person who'll probably get hurt is the newbie buyer who thinks he/she's getting the bargain of a lifetime, only to find that the mandolin is a fake.  I agree.  But if one has accumulated a little knowledge and experience, eBay buying can be pretty unthreatening, as long as one exercises "due diligence," as they say.

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## man dough nollij

Hey all you IT guys: wouldn't it be fairly easy for E-Bay to set it up so that pictures can't be poached from their site? That would make it a lot harder for this type of scam to work.  :Confused:

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## Tom C

For an instrument that expensive, I would buy a plane ticket for a few hundred and pick it up under the conditions that it would be like I was buying from an independent seller. Not because I bid the highest so I am obligated.

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## ApK

My prediction #1 has come to pass. 

The first ad is dead.

Batting a thousand so far  :Cool:

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## ApK

> Hey all you IT guys: wouldn't it be fairly easy for E-Bay to set it up so that pictures can't be poached from their site? That would make it a lot harder for this type of scam to work.


Nope, they cannot.  They can only make it slightly more difficult to grab a picture, and anyway, that would not affect this sort of thing one Iota.

People do not perpetrate (much less succeed) in auction scams just because they can borrow someone's low-res picture.

ApK

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## man dough nollij

I have tried to copy pictures from websites, and got a pop up that said "this photo is copyrighted. Please contact blahblah for permission to use this photo". Seems like E-Bay could use the same kind of code.

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## violmando

I just started selling on eBay in the past two months, but I've been buying off eBay for over 10 years. Most of the instruments I've bought have been pretty inexpensive and nothing like the Fern, but I've bought alot: berde bass, my Larson/Stahl mandocello, bass domra, contrabass domra, Washburn M7SW mandolin, Johnson F mandolin, cuatro, Washburn bajo sexto, 5 string violin, blue violin, Roessler alto and bass recorders, soprano and baritone ukeleles, cavaquinho..I KNOW there has been more. I also buy CDs and most of my funky wardrobe. If you are careful and check our your seller, feedback and all the signs, you'll be OK. If it seems too good, something's feels off, then it is.  I usually watch anything I'm interested in for awhile anyway. Yvonne

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## fatt-dad

As long as there is a "print-screen" button on a computer, you can get images:

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## ApK

> I have tried to copy pictures from websites, and got a pop up that said "this photo is copyrighted. Please contact blahblah for permission to use this photo". Seems like E-Bay could use the same kind of code.



1. (and the only thing that matters in this topic), reusing someones picture has nothing to do with auction fraud.  It's a minor convenience.  It's irrelevant.   In fact, the fraud mentioned here could have thrown in a picture of any old F-style for all it would have mattered, and in fact that probably would have draw LESS suspicion because the identical picture probably caught people's eye.

Thinking that making the images harder to copy would reduce auction fraud is like thinking that making manila envelopes harder to get would reduce mail fraud.

Now for the related general off-topic issues:

2.  The protections you see on those web sites are to protect the artist's rights on the images themselves.  Someone reusing a photo for an auction is not interested in claiming credit for the photography or showing off a high quality work of photo art.  It's usually pretty easy to grab a low-res, watermaked copy as fatt-dad showed you.  Heck, I could point my digital camera at my screen if I really cared to, and that's all I'd want for an auction listing.

3.  Relying on technology or a big company to protect you is a bad idea.
Airbags in cars don't keep you from crashing, safeties on guns don't keep you from accidentally getting shot,  locks don't keep out bad guys and clever web tricks don't stop you from being scammed.

ApK

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## MikeEdgerton

> I have tried to copy pictures from websites, and got a pop up that said "this photo is copyrighted. Please contact blahblah for permission to use this photo". Seems like E-Bay could use the same kind of code.


If you want to give me the name of a site that does that I'll get you all the photos off it. Some sellers do that on eBay as well. It only stops those that don't know how to get them. As fatt-dad has noted you can always do a print screen. You can also get them out of your browsers cache or temporary files. That stops nothing really.




> ...If you are careful and check our your seller, feedback and all the signs, you'll be OK...


Actually Yvonne, many of these accounts have been hijacked and have perfect feedback. The owner just doesn't control the account anymore and so that theory fades quickly. Most fraud auctions give you other signs.

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## Mike Bromley

> Another thing that can make you a target is listing your inventory of "Things To Steal" in your signature block.


Touché!
 :Popcorn:

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## John Flynn

> Think of it as if it were a real world crime instead of a cyber crime.  If I saw someone shop lifting an object in a store, I would tell the store.  Would I go up to the thief personally and tell them I'm on to them?  Nope.  I don't know anything about them, what they might do immediately to me.  Telling the store is safe and gets their trained staff to deal with the problem and keeps me safe.
> 
> Jamie


Jamie:
I have to say that's a bad example. Many moons ago I worked department store security, back when they had "trained staff." I made over 50 busts for felony levels of merchandise and many more misdemeanors. Since then, as a private citizen, I have reported shoplifters to stores and once testified in court against one. Also, my wife has spent her career in retailing. So I know that area. 

Retail establishments, in all but the highest-end stores, do not have "trained staffs" anymore. They tell their people essentially to do nothing. They have a certain amount of "shrinkage" in their business plans and they carry insurance. So proficient shoplifters pretty much do what they want nowadays. 

But it's also a bad example because it's not personal as in the OP. In a store, no one is trying to rip ME off. But if someone breaks into my house, there is going to be more action taken than reporting. The same for goes for breaking into my computer or my bank account.

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## Mike Bromley

> I have tried to copy pictures from websites, and got a pop up that said "this photo is copyrighted. Please contact blahblah for permission to use this photo". Seems like E-Bay could use the same kind of code.


Easily bypassed by alt-PrtSc and a little crude pasting in Paint (Photoshop not required).  No, I'm not one of them.

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## MikeEdgerton

You don't even have to go that far. Go to the Internet Explorer properties, clear your temporary internet files, refresh the page, go to properties again and view the files. They'll be right there.

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## ApK

> You don't even have to go that far. Go to the Internet Explorer properties, clear your temporary internet files, refresh the page, go to properties again and view the files. They'll be right there.


I'd have to count mouse clicks but the print screen is probably faster than clearing your temp files.  Certainly is faster if you have lots of temp data to clear.

Nonetheless, is everyone getting the point by now that we are talking about these protections slowing us down to 5 seconds and 5 mouse clicks, rather than the 3 seconds and 3 clicks it takes without the protection?  

Even if this was relevant to preventing fraud.

Which it isn't.

ApK

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## MikeEdgerton

I can generally get the files off the cache faster than I can get them into paint, heck I do that all the time. Pictures do make it easier to sell things so they do contribute to the scam. They may not be a necessary part of the project but they do make it easier to sell things.

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## ApK

C'mon.  Of course a nice looking page with a nice picture makes for a better lure.

But I type "Gibson fern f-5" into Google image search and get my choice of dozens of pictures from various articles, catalogs, etc, or I could go scan a picture from a book at a library or buy a magazine and get a pic from there.  There's no special reason why I'd have need to grab one from another ebay auction.  It's just a minor convenience. 

http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...h+Images&gbv=2

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## man dough nollij

Thanks for the technical background on the picture thing. My only point is that being able to copy/paste from E-Bay makes it easier to make to make an identical auctions. I looked at both of them, and couldn't spot which one was the fake.

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## ApK

> My only point is that being able to copy/paste from E-Bay makes it easier to make to make an identical auctions.


Sure does.  But an identical auction does not make for a better scam*, as I said, even though these WEREN'T identical, it was probably similarities (like the picture and, um...the serial number!) that tipped off our alert OP.

Had he used a different picture and made up a different serial number would the OP have caught on as readily?  Would eBay have been able to pull it as quickly as they did with out those obvious flags?

The frauds we identify and report are NOT the ones that succeed!

One other thing: very often, when a seller needs to use a pic to prove he has an item (like when the Nintendo Wii was in short supply last year) they will often post a pic of the item, with a current newspaper, and their ebay username handwritten on it.  THAT is a case when the picture (and clever photoshopping) can be really relevent to a scam!

ApK

*there are scams involving exact copies of auctions, sometimes involving fake eBay sites or other related subterfuge.  But even in those scams, the people who perpetrate them will not stop just because they have to do a little typing and photoshopping rather than just cutting and pasting.  Someone once observed that it takes just as much hard work to make a dishonest dollar as an honest one.   Crooks can be quite industrious.

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## TomTyrrell

I sent a message to the seller this morning asking if anyone else had told him about the fake listing.

His reply:

"Yes they have and thanks for looking out as well. We will take care of it immediately. 

- oldrailroadantiques"

And HE took care of it. That's how things work.


Anybody want to buy a nice mandolin?

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## ApK

> And HE took care of it. That's how things work.


You have no proof of exactly what action eBay responded to, do you?

Are you seriously trying to discourage people from using eBay's fraud reporting system?

I think you're way off the mark here.

ApK

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## Schlegel

> I have tried to copy pictures from websites, and got a pop up that said "this photo is copyrighted. Please contact blahblah for permission to use this photo". Seems like E-Bay could use the same kind of code.


Wouldn't work.  All you have to do to get around this is a screencapture.

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## JEStanek

That's a shame retailers are no longer trying to get thieves, but I won't endanger myself (nor would I advocate anyone else do it) for a store's property (I might stop a kid smaller than me- does that mean I'm an honorable bully?) if they won't do it when notified.  

Unless it is my own e-bay account that has been captured I won't get involved personally there either.  I don't need to give myself up to a crazy person or internet hacker/thief.  I'm still in favor of letting the police, my insurance and the FBI handle it.  

These are just my opinions of the moment safe and sound, who knows what they would be under duress. I would hope the same.  How _you_ interact with these cyber criminals is _your_ decision.

Jamie

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## man dough nollij

> Think of it as if it were a real world crime instead of a cyber crime.  If I saw someone shop lifting an object in a store, I would tell the store.  Would I go up to the thief personally and tell them I'm on to them?  Nope.  I don't know anything about them, what they might do immediately to me.  Telling the store is safe and gets their trained staff to deal with the problem and keeps me safe.
> 
> Jamie


Getting personally confrontive with a hacker is kind of like going up to a mugger in the commision of a crime, giving him my name, address, and phone number, and asking that he look me up sometime so I can explain why mugging is wrong. Oops.

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## Goodin

All I have to say is after my experiences I will not buy instruments on ebay any more.

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## evanreilly

I have had many successful transactions on Ebay, both as buyer and seller.  At the risk of being simplistic, I always say remember, as the Latins said: "*Caveat Emptor*
Always be an informed buyer.

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## Bernie Daniel

> evanreilly:I have had many successful transactions on Ebay, both as buyer and seller. At the risk of being simplistic, I always say remember, as the Latins said: "Caveat Emptor Always be an informed buyer.


Likewise!  

Between the description of the instrument how it is presented, the pictures, the listed history of the seller, and how he/she responds to questions (or does not respond or obfuscates) -- I feel that you can be reasonably certain about a potential transaction.

Still I would never think seriously about buying an expensive mandolin from some source like eBay -- how can anyone buy a high end mandolin without playing it or at least having a firm hands-on recommendation of a knowledgable person from a trusted, and accessible store or dealer?

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## jim_n_virginia

> Think of it as if it were a real world crime instead of a cyber crime.  If I saw someone shop lifting an object in a store, I would tell the store.  Would I go up to the thief personally and tell them I'm on to them?  Nope.  
> Jamie


My brother-in-law saw a young man stealing in Walmart and he went up to the guy and told him to put it back and the guy did.

The thief shot my b-in-law in the back out in the parking lot when he was leaving.

It pays to be careful when dealing with low lifes.

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## lovethemf5s

Don't be scared, be careful. Nothing is 100% sure, not even buying from a good friend, relative, trusted store or dealer. eBay sales probably fall into the 99% or better category. No one can lead your life for you and protect you from the mean world. Try to be smart and if the deal smells, walk.

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## lovethemf5s

> My brother-in-law saw a young man stealing in Walmart and he went up to the guy and told him to put it back and the guy did.
> 
> The thief shot my b-in-law in the back out in the parking lot when he was leaving.
> 
> It pays to be careful when dealing with low lifes.


Did your brother-in-law survive?

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## markishandsome

No mando content:
A "better" way to steal pictures that have the right-click protection is to look at the html source and find the link to the original full-size hi-res image.  Some pages of course block your ability to view the page source, but you can get that out of your cache.  I'm not advocating stealing copyrighted material, but it can be done by anyone with basic computer skills, let alone professional hackers.  

I tend to think that ebay scammers are not high-tech villains capable of doing a lot of damage.  You have to be pretty thickheaded to think you can copy a current auction for a high-ticked one of a kind item and nobody will notice.  Like someone already said, the scams that get posted here are pretty obvious and almost always get taken down.  Successful scammers are more subtle.

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## TomTyrrell

> You have no proof of exactly what action eBay responded to, do you?
> 
> Are you seriously trying to discourage people from using eBay's fraud reporting system?
> 
> I think you're way off the mark here.
> 
> ApK


Nope, _I'm_ not the one off the mark here. 


On another thread F5Loar posted the reply he got from eBay when he reported a fraudulent item. Here it is:

"Thank you for writing eBay in regard to your report on image and text theft.
I reviewed all the information you sent, but I don't have enough evidence to show that the seller violated any eBay policies.
Sometimes members allow others to use their images. It's also possible that the seller got the photo from the same source or from a source we can't verify. In either case, we can't remove the listing.
*The only way we can take action in a case like this is if the person who owns the image or text writes to us directly.* 
If you feel strongly about this issue, *I recommend that you contact the content owner and suggest that he or she contact us.* Once we hear from the owner, we can respond appropriately.
It is my pleasure to assist you. 
Thank you for choosing eBay."

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## ApK

Nope.  The "case like this" in that case was use of copyrighted content -- text and image, says so right there, and of course only the copyright holder can say whether protected content is being used with out permission.  No one else would know.
We are talking about reporting a fraud and other violations of eBay rules.   Totally different cases. 
In the case in this thread, we're reporting that someone was claiming to sell a mandolin that he doesn't own.  The fatc that he copied pictures or text was irrelevant.   It just so happened that the evidence of the fraud was right there in another auction, so it was easy for us, and for eBay to see.  He could have been claiming to sell a mando that didn't ever exisit with a photo-shopped picture.  Any expert from this site may have noticed it and reported it.  It may have taken longer to get pulled...don't know what eBay may or may not have not done to validate the claim...but it sure would not have required the report to come from a non-existent owner of an imaginary mando.

 There doesn't even have to be another eBayer involved.  If I saw someone advertising a stick of dynamite, I report it to eBay as a violation, and it gets taken down. eBay does not wait for the ghost of Alfred Nobel to write in about it.

We don't need to argue about it here.  Read the message you get if you submit a report through the fraud system.  It tells you what they do for fraud claims just like the message you quoted says what they do for copyright infringement claims. 

*"Thank you for writing eBay's SafeHarbor Department about a listing or
seller you would like us to investigate for fraudulent activity. We are
concerned about this type of activity and want to assure you that we
will review your report as soon as possible, usually within 72 hours.

Due to privacy concerns, we will not keep you informed about the status
of our investigation. While you will only receive this acknowledgement
of the receipt of your report, please be assured that we will thoroughly
review the situation."
*

You'll notice that's says nothing about content owners, or text and images.
If what you were saying applied here, I should have gotten the same message f5loar got.

eBay's stated policy, observation of fraudulent auctions, and Occam's Razor makes it quite clear:
If you see evidence of a scam or other illegal activity in an auction, no matter who you are, report it to eBay.  That's the only way it can be noticed, investigated, and addressed. 


ApK

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## TomTyrrell

ApK, PLEASE spend some time learning about eBay's policies before you go spouting a bunch of untrue theories and misleading others. 

Your example of dynamite is useless. Dynamite is one of the things not allowed on eBay. A listing for the sale of dynamite is a violation of _eBay's_ policies and as soon as eBay becomes aware of it they will cancel the listing. Offering to sell outside of eBay is ALSO a violation of eBay policies.

Please read this line again "*The only way we can take action in a case like this is if the person who owns the image or text writes to us directly.*" 

Or take a few minutes and read this page http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/...ext-theft.html . Please take particular note of the line that says "*Note: You must own the rights to the text or images you are reporting for unauthorized use*." A listing that uses another person's photos or descriptions is only a violation of eBay policy if the owner of the photos and descriptions did NOT give permission to copy. The OWNER of the photos and descriptions is the ONLY person who really knows he didn't give permission. Ebay has no way to know beyond any doubt whether the seller actually does have the item he is listing.

If you see a listing that violates someone's copyright or Trademark contact the OWNER of the copyright or Trademark. If you see a listing that uses photos or descriptions from another seller's listing contact that SELLER. If you see a listing that obviously violates eBay's policies report it to eBay. It really isn't all that difficult to understand.

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## Scott Tichenor

While we're asking others to read, let me chime in and encourage a few of you to read this, the first rule of the forum posting guidelines that is also a part of your continuing membership and participation here:

Avoid flaming or trolling – posts intended to create discord, antagonize others or create general mayhem. Be polite and courteous at all times. We expect spirited discussions and widely varying opinions that some may even find offensive, but exercise caution. A good rule of thumb is don't say anything on the message board that you wouldn’t say to someone in person.

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## ApK

> ApK, *Note: You must own the rights to the text or images you are reporting for unauthorized use*."


OK, since reading IS fundamental, and we're encouraging people to read stuff, my LAST comment on this particular issue is:  Read this thread.  We are not talking about "the unauthorized use of text or images."  If we were, I'd be agreeing with you.  
We are talking about fraud, in this case, the attempt to get $31,000 for a mandolin that you don't have.  The reuse of the picture and and text, as I've said here a number of times, was incidental to the issue and irrelevant.
Totally different issue, totally different policy, totally different requirements for action, all spelled out in black and white, or the text colors of your choice, on eBay's site and in this thread in quoted policy messages.

The only point of arguing this here as long as we have: Making cafe members in the eBay community more vigilant, and therefore safer.
If you see signs of fraud in an eBay auction, report it to eBay.  Kind of a no-brainer, really.
IF there happens to be an other ebay seller involved you think has stake in the matter, tell them, too, by all means, the more the merrier.

Happy Hanukkah!

ApK

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## TomTyrrell

> We are not talking about "the unauthorized use of text or images."  If we were, I'd be agreeing with you.  
> We are talking about fraud, in this case, the attempt to get $31,000 for a mandolin that you don't have.  The reuse of the picture and and text, as I've said here a number of times, was incidental to the issue and irrelevant.


The reuse of the photos and description is the ONLY _relevant_ issue. 
Read eBay's policies. There is no restriction against two people selling the same product on eBay for different prices. There are _thousands_ of items on eBay offered by multiple sellers for different prices.

How do you or eBay know _for sure, without a shadow of a doubt_ that individual doesn't have that mandolin?

The answer is you don't and neither does eBay. You are _pretty sure_ he doesn't have it based on what you read here. BUT, you don't actually have that mandolin in your possession so your conclusions are based solely on your belief that the other party does indeed have the mandolin and that it is the ONLY mandolin like that in the world. Even the Gibson company does not have records showing that they did not make two identical mandolins with the same serial number. 

The ONLY valid reason eBay would have to cancel that auction was due to unauthorized copying of the photos and descriptions. And the ONLY person, other than the "seller", who knows the copying was unauthorized is the OWNER of the photos and description.

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## Charles Johnson

As a website owner with a lot of pictures of mandolins, I have them ripped off for eBay auctions several times a year. There is not a lot I can do to stop my pics from being ripped off. I think the watermarks that some sites use detract from the visuals. I do use a distinctive background for all of my pictures which helps to identify the source of the pics. There is a program that turns a .jpg into sort of jigsaw puzzle with several segments, but I have not found a reliable source for it. 

I usually get several emails almost immediately informing me of the fake ad. If I email eBay they usually take it down in a day or two. Thats cutting it close with a three day auction. It is a PITA however, and sometimes I am busy and do not have time to send long detailed emails to large impersonal auction sites. 

Bottom line, ask questions and know your seller. A real seller has nothing to hide and will give you a phone number and address to contact him. They will send pics that are not in the listing.  If you get evasive answers, or no answer to your emails, buy somewhere else. If you win the auction and do not have good info from the seller, don't send any money. Better a non-paying bidder strike than losing lots of $$. 

Charles Johnson

 PS - does anyone know where to get the jpeg-to-jigsaw-puzzle software?

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## Scott Tichenor

> PS - does anyone know where to get the jpeg-to-jigsaw-puzzle software?


I wouldn't suggest investing any money or effort in such a program. It's just going to create more work for you. Anyone can do a screen shot and paste into any image program and have your image in seconds. There's money in crime. Count on the fact that people engaging in this will find ways to get around your efforts.

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## MikeEdgerton

Charles, you could adopt the policy of one of your online competitors that answered an e-mail I sent to him about images from his web site being used in a fraudulent auction on eBay. His reply to me was "Mike, it isn't my job to fix the competition's problems." As hard as that might be for some to swallow I can see his point. One easy thing to do is to simply add your your name to the picture without covering any of the parts. Yes, it can be removed but most of these guys seem to want to do things the easy way. You can add that on with Microsoft Paint.

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## theBlood

...Bottom line, ask questions and know your seller. A real seller has nothing to hide and will give you a phone number and address to contact him. They will send pics that are not in the listing.  If you get evasive answers, or no answer to your emails, buy somewhere else....Charles Johnson


This was my thought while reading the flood of exchanges about ebay's policies. I can't imagine someone buying a good instrument without at least a few emails. I've found you can tell a great deal from the seller's writing style. The likelihood of getting a thoughtful and well written response from a thief is quite small.

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## jim_n_virginia

[QUOTE=Charles Johnson;609786]
Bottom line, ask questions and know your seller. A real seller has nothing to hide and will give you a phone number and address to contact him. They will send pics that are not in the listing.  If you get evasive answers, or no answer to your emails, buy somewhere else. QUOTE]


good advice! You have to play detective a little to be safe. You'd be surprised what you can learn from someone with just a friendly chat on the phone and a few emails.

When I buy and instrument I almost always find out where they live and verify it, do a reverse phone trace on their home phones, find out where they work etc. It's not hard to do.

And like Mr Johnson said if you get any evasive answers kill the deal a real seller will bend over backwards to sell you the instrument.

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## Mandobar

jim,

i'm not sure of the "bending over backwards" part as anyone who has ever sold anything on-line knows that the amount of tire kicking that goes on can be maddening.  

know who you are selling to and know who you are buying from.  that is a hard and fast rule in any transaction.  

when a deal looks too good to be true, it generally is.  so, use your noggin when dealing with ebay folks and folks selling stuff in general.  ebay has changed a lot and the buyers seem to have all the power now.  i'd be more scared as a seller than a buyer.

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## markishandsome

Elderly instruments puts up a little sign with their logo on it when they take pictures of their instruments.  Can't do that on close-up detail shots, but it would inhibit scammers from stealing the full-body shots....maybe...

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## Scott Tichenor

How many ways can I change thee, let me count the ways.  :Redface:

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## Scott Tichenor

I think I may be onto something. Be on the watch for the chickenman seller on eBay!  :Laughing:  And, swapping out the mandolin would be a ten-minute job... maybe.

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## Mandobar

:Chicken:

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## Mike Bromley

> I think I may be onto something. Be on the watch for the chickenman seller on eBay!  And, swapping out the mandolin would be a ten-minute job... maybe.


The chicken, on the other hand, took only three... :Whistling:

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## Charles Johnson

Hi Mike,
Yes, I can add text to pictures. I have used Photoshop to do that but I think it detracts a lot from the listing. 




As to the jpeg to puzzle software, what is does is slice up the picture into segments and reassemble them as a table in the browser. The software ensures that edges line up correctly. When you right click an image all you get is the one segment. Sure, you could download each picture and build a table but that is a LOT of work. 

Perhaps an image mapping software? Any help from you technical computer types out there? 

Thanks!
Charles

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## Mike Bromley

Interesting approach.  Easy to set up, not so easy to disassemble.

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## MikeEdgerton

Charles, what Scott was saying about the Jigsaw software is that a simple screen shot defeats it. Put the text off to one side if need be. That will deter a large number of these people, they'll go someplace with no text first.

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## JEStanek

I thought you meant something like the below image with a puzzle...  This is a free photoshop action using Photoshop CS3 available from  the special effects section here.

Here is the original image to compare it with.  I don't see this as a particularly good solution.


Jamie

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## JeffD

> There's money in crime. Count on the fact that people engaging in this will find ways to get around your efforts.


Way too true, unfortunately.

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