# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  Hornpipe rhythm

## HonketyHank

Well, I have been enjoying Irish fiddle tunes for several years now and I understand that hornpipes are usually written in 4/4 time as a string of eighth notes which are understood to be not of equal length. Specifically, the eighth note that is on the beat is understood to be longer than the one appears to be on the upbeat in the written notation.

The question I have, largely because I don't play in a group (either Irish or other genre) and I came to Irish music late in life, is just how unequal the two notes should be.

I understand that it may vary from one group to another, perhaps from one region to another. But are there limits? I have seen hornpipes notated as dotted eighth followed by a sixteenth. That seems really "snappy". I have also heard them played with almost imperceptible difference, sounded more like a reel. I tend to play them almost like a quarter note and eighth note pair (triplet). So for what I do, a hornpipe could easily be written in 12/8.

I would love to hear some opinions.

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Simon DS

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## Bertram Henze

since Irish music is supposed to be played as heard, not as written, the notation is not that important. I have heard all the variations you mentioned and tend to the jig-like one myself. I doubt the existance of an orthodox rule, and if the feeling is right, the playing is right.

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## Beanzy

There are different types of hornpipe rhythm, some are very even, rather than what is often called 'dotted' rhythm. I would find it difficult to give any absolutes about which tunes or styles should be played in a particular manner. The Northumbrian dances tend to have a more noticeably dotted style of playing & I find tunes in the south east of England can be player very straight, but it's only a general impression. 

Here's a video of mandolinist Matt Norman stepping some Devonshire, South Zeal style tunes. I think the rhythms get more context when you see & hear the steps. the little rhythmic fills illustrate how what can seem like a long note in the tune can actually be quite busy in the steps.

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Ben Vierra, 

derbex, 

Simon DS

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## rcc56

A 2 to 1 ratio on weighted eighth notes at moderate tempo [or, as you said, treating it as if it was notated in 12/8] is always a reasonable place to start for a traditional Irish hornpipe.  If it doesn't sound or feel right, you can always adjust the rhythm and tempo until it does.

It seems that many US musicians don't understand hornpipes at all, and often want to treat all their tunes as if they were bluegrass banjo breakdowns.

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## Simon DS

Not sure what the comment about Bluegrass and Breakdowns means, but personally I find a lot of music theory to be confusing. 
Here are two metronome examples where the rhythms can be seen. 
Example 1 and 2. 
So your average Hornpipe would be somewhere between these two?

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## liestman

I would just listen to YouTube videos of good players of Irish music. For the most part hornpipes are played with a dotted timing but how "straight" or dotted they are depends on taste really. 

Here are a couple of examples of the same tune (Flowing Tide) with some variation of straightness or dottedness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onsFUSFasxE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--A4wmCUFTI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX51_24AFOU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63zT9KE8mJo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=197t9x65R1w

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bruce.b, 

Jill McAuley

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## Jill McAuley

As it's dance music looking up videos of set dancers dancing hornpipe sets vs. reel sets might help highlight where the emphasis goes.

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## whistler

Here are a few examples of hornpipes played by Irish musicians.  They range from very slightly 'swung' in the first  couple of examples (perhaps 4:3 ~ 3:2), through 2:1 in the third, to very 'pointed' (close to 1:3) in the last (in a separate post below, as only 3 videos are allowed per post).








The differences may be partly regional (Clare, Kerry, Tipperary and Sligo, respectively) and connected with the prevailing styles of dancing in each region, and perhaps partly due to changes in fashion over time (the last example is from the period 1920-36, the others are from the 1960s and 1970s).  But it cannot be assumed that a given musician will necessarily treat every hornpipe the same way, or even play one tune with the same rhythmic emphasis every time.  What is clear is that, in Irish traditional playing, hornpipes are consistently differentiated from reels.  In most cases, this distinction is inherent in the structure of the tune but also in the manner of playing - i.e. a slower tempo (sometimes only slightly so) and a marked emphasis on all 4 beats of the bar (as distinct from a main emphasis on beats 1 and 3 in a reel - sometimes leading to reels being notated in 2/2 instead of 4/4).  It is worth to note that reels are often played with a considerable amount of 'swing' - sometimes just as much as, or even more than, hornpipes.

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Aidan Crossey, 

Jill McAuley, 

Randi Gormley, 

Simon DS

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## whistler

See previous post

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Aidan Crossey, 

Randi Gormley, 

Simon DS

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## Aidan Crossey

Whistler's post is, as ever, very helpful.  I'd echo what others have said in that there's no universally accepted "right" way to play hornpipes as the videos which he's posted show.  It's all about listening to various players' approaches to tunes and developing for yourself your own angle on these tunes - informed by such listening.

For what it's worth I'm pretty much a late convert to the beauty and grace of hornpipes.  I've been thinking a lot about this over the course of the past few days and I've come to the conclusion that I was put off hornpipes as a child.  I was often brought to dances and other musical occasions as a small child by my parents and I heard various players rendering "hackneyed" hornpipes.  It seemed that there were only two or three hornpipes in general circulation at such events and pretty soon they became played out.  (I'm thinking, for example of tricksy hornpipes such as The Belfast with its long runs of descending triplets.  Or a simply ubiquitous hornpipe such as The Harvest Home which lots of newcomers to the music seem to be drawn to but which - in my opinion, yours may differ! - is actually quite a difficult tune to play with any degree of fluidity...)

My epiphany came with "The Tailor's Twist" which opened my ears to - again in my opinion, please feel free to disagree! - a hornpipe which has a really arresting melody and which feels delightful to play.  Others which I've since been drawn to include "The Showman's Fancy" - one of my all-time "go to" tunes and I was bowled over by John Carty's rendering of "The Harp And Shamrock" - one of those tunes which, once heard, had me itching to learn it!  The second track in the video below...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEKSV-DLmq4

But I really have to commend one of the most electrifying pieces of music I've heard in many years of listening to and playing the tunes.  James Kellys' version of "The Stage/The Western Hornpipe" with Daithi Sproule on guitar.  Simply spellbinding.  I must have listened to this recording a thousand times and it never gets old!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWBdayMTBE8

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Jill McAuley, 

Simon DS, 

whistler

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## foldedpath

Just echoing what others have said above, there doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule for hornpipes with regard to a dotted feel, or bounce as I think of it. Some hornpipes seem to "want" a steadier rhythm like those minor key ones I posted in the other thread. Others benefit from it. I can't imagine playing Off to California without at least a little of a dotted feel. 

I've always liked this old clip below from 1963, the Liverpool Hornpipe with a single fiddler and a dancer. Partly it's the slower tempo than we usually play them in a session, allowing for all that intricate footwork from the dancer. But also for the contrast between the straight-ahead playing of the fiddle and the footwork. I can almost hear a dotted feel or bounce in the dancer's feet against that steady fiddle playing. Maybe the reason we sometimes like a little bounce when playing hornpipes is because we don't have the dancers doing it for us?

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Aidan Crossey, 

DavidKOS, 

Jonathan Reinhardt, 

whistler

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## whistler

@Aidan Crossey: No, it's not just you.  The Tailor's Twist is a beautiful tune, with a beautifully fitting title - and The Showman's Fancy has a nice lightness to it.  I've just listened to the John Carty track and am spellbound (although that has as much to do with the playing as with the tunes) - the second tune especially gets me.  I will check out the other link...

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Aidan Crossey

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## HonketyHank

I am enjoying all the examples and listening to the seemingly unanimous opinion saying "it varies". :Smile:  Thanks for all the above. There seem to be some real masters in the links above.

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Aidan Crossey

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## wormpicker

In Appalachian old-time music, many (maybe most) standards that have “hornpipe” in their title usually aren’t played with much of a hornpipe rhythm.  I’m thinking of some of the most often played tunes, like Fishar’s Hornpipe, Sailors Hornpipe, Durang’s Hornpipe. Most jams usually play them pretty straight.

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Aidan Crossey

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## Randi Gormley

Lass on the Strand is another hornpipe that's loads of fun to play, lots of arpeggios. I was going to mention the difference between the bluegrass/old time hornpipe rhythm and that of ITM (or at least the ITM I'm familiar with), but wormpicker got there first. I once heard that there were two different hornpipe rhythms (bouncy and smooth) and proponents of either type simply cannot play with people who play the other! I've also heard the slower the hornpipe, the more steps you can put to them.

I find I like to play a bouncier variety -- and it helps me memorize them faster. Think of that what you will ... I will say that people in my neck of the woods tend to play hornpipes fast -- faster than reels in a lot of cases, which i think takes some of their beauty away. Must be the New York City influence. So what do you put with Tailor's Twist? I played with someone who followed it with Smell of the Bog.

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Aidan Crossey

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## Bren

I like hornpipes and I like them with swing.
But it's no problem to play them straight if that's what the other musician(s) are doing.

Two favourites at the moment (it's been a 2-year "moment,") are John Sheahan's Impish Hornpipe and his Foxrock.

The accordionist likes them too and we've been talking for months about doing another online collaboration, with those two tunes, so if it happens, I'll post in the video file branch.

Another couple of favourites are the Galway and the Poppy Leaf.

Here are Shetland's Hom Bru with Davie Henry (I think) and Gary Peterson on mandolins and typical Shetland swing guitar from Brian Nicholson.

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Aidan Crossey, 

Randi Gormley

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## Aidan Crossey

> So what do you put with Tailor's Twist? I played with someone who followed it with Smell of the Bog.


I play a set "The Harp And Shamrock/The Tailor's Twist".

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Bren

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## JeffD

> I would love to hear some opinions.


I work with rules of thumb, and then work my way out to the exceptions. I am never happy with answers that seem like a heaping big pile of special cases.

I use fruit.

A reel would be: watermelon watermelon watermelon watermelon, 
while the same eighth notes played as a hornpipe would be:  apple-apple apple-apple apple-apple apple-apple.

Regardless of how its written and until someone corrects me, that is how I hornpipe.

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## Simon DS

Seeing the wonderful diversity of rhythms of hornpipes, images and stories, I thought I’d metronome a certain number of examples just to give fixed numerical values to each one.

On the playlist I’ve given a number in brackets it’s the last note value divided by the first, so a straight reel would be (1) and a straight jig would be (.5). I suppose anything with a value below (.50) would be getting on to slip jig, maybe?

On the mando, for hornpipes at least, the first note is often played down beat and the last note is upbeat... but sometimes it’s downbeat, downbeat. And when there are the three notes together it’s probably DUD, or the middle note is hammered/pull offed...

Here’s the playlist with 8 vids:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...vW8cs9eVTuZsp4

and some examples below:

Enjoy!  :Smile: 


Standard, flat jig


https://youtu.be/D6Z2geLgaSM

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## Simon DS

Another two of them:

I really like this one, the (.57) speeded up on YouTube by x1.5...

https://youtu.be/mtg3w7pmz_s


https://youtu.be/qRLN0KHNYFo

And one more, (.66) which sounds a bit to me like an English Country Dance, a very sprightly ‘Teddy Bear’s Picnic’ !   :Laughing: 


https://youtu.be/6JvqgVLd-e8

[Note, the tempo displayed on these vids is not necessarily correct, I had to speed some of them up]

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## Simon DS

I was going to post another metronome vid (‘Oh no, please don’t!’  :Laughing:   )
-but the app I have doesn’t do them so close to a Reel.

So in the interest of diversity here’s another vid, I think it’s just off (1) meaning a slightly swung standard Reel, there’s a _very_ slight hesitation. And yet there’s a sort of long slip jig (-.50) in there too?
And 2/4 time? Not sure. Any ideas?


https://youtu.be/O-2VPVhkTXY

And in reply to the OP, I have often played hornpipes in the same way with the first note twice as long as the second, but since playing more triplets I’ve started to flatten the hornpipe out to sound more like (.66) or more, as in one of the vids above.

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HonketyHank, 

Jesse Harmon

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## DougC

There are a million hornpipes out there. And many are not from Ireland. By the name of this one, it is from England. But to me, it sounds very much like a French (Brittany) tune. Here is another version. (Very cool fiddle BTW).

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HonketyHank, 

whistler

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## DavidKOS

> I've always liked this old clip below from 1963, the Liverpool Hornpipe with a single fiddler and a dancer. Partly it's the slower tempo than we usually play them in a session, allowing for all that intricate footwork from the dancer.


I guess that's similar to "strict tempo" playing?

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## HonketyHank

I really like that video, Doug -- for several reasons. One, I do like the tune. Two, it is very interesting to hear how she modulates volume in the middle of a note with her bowing - it really contributes additional hornpipiness. 

And yes, the fiddle makes me think, is that really a fiddle? It looks almost like a viola. But I checked and she is at least tuned the same as my mandolin.

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Simon DS, 

whistler

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## Simon DS

> There are a million hornpipes out there. And many are not from Ireland. By the name of this one, it is from England. But to me, it sounds very much like a French (Brittany) tune. Here is another version. (Very cool fiddle BTW).


Her playing sounds quite classical to me, but I actually dont know a lot of English Country Dance tunes so maybe its just the way I associate it. The rhythm seems to be around (.95) to (.90)? So its straight 4/4 with a small amount of swing. The metronome Im using doesnt have a great range, up to (.875) but this tune seems straighter than that. And the weight of each pulse seems uniform or even slightly louder on the second beat (if thats what French is? I dont know), giving it a spritely, upbeat feel.

I think Im hearing this, I dont know, not sure, each time I listen to these tunes I hear something else. I feel like a beginner, and I dont have a rich enough musical vocabulary or even good enough ear to describe the differences. So its easier just to use metric values to describe hornpipes.

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## whistler

> There are a million hornpipes out there. And many are not from Ireland. By the name of this one, it is from England. But to me, it sounds very much like a French (Brittany) tune. Here is another version. (Very cool fiddle BTW).


Hornpipes are generally regarded as having originated in England and spread from there to the rest of Britain and Ireland (and sporadically to continental Europe).  I don't hear the similarity with Breton music myself - it sounds typically English to me - but we all hear things differently (and I am from England, so I probably have a more fully-formed idea of what English traditional music sounds like).  English hornpipes too can be played 'straight' or 'dotted' ('swung'), but the difference tends to be quite categorical, not like the 'sliding scale' of swing that can be heard in Irish hornpipe playing.

...Then there are the English 3/2 hornpipes, which are a completely different animal (not really relevant to this thread, just an interesting aside - and they do have a certain similarity with the Breton _hanter dro_ and a certain type of Swedish _polska_).




> Her playing sounds quite classical to me, but I actually don’t know a lot of English Country Dance tunes so maybe it’s just the way I associate it.


Again, you may be hearing something I am not, but her playing sounds quite typical of how English dance tunes are played 'in the tradition' at the present time.

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## whistler

> is that really a fiddle?


There are a handful of makers in the UK making 'pointless' fiddles.  One of them, Tim Phillips (recently retired), lives near me - but I don't think this is one of his.

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## DougC

For years I've said that the subtle lilt, or swing, or dotted feeling, takes a lot of careful listening. It is much like learning a language and getting it 'right' so that native speakers say that you are 'fluent' in the language. 

So many people want to have instant success. Mechanical methods of recording and analysis show accurate results, however the human side needs a lot of time to 'catch up'.  My advice is much like a language instructors, study only one language at a time (if you are a beginner) and choose a good example.

BTW that is a custom violin. Check out the strange peg box. (And it does sound like a Polska to me too.)

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catmandu2, 

Eric Platt

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## catmandu2

> Posted by Simon DS 
> Her playing sounds quite classical to me, but I actually don’t know a lot of English Country Dance tunes so maybe it’s just the way I associate it.


These forms, both overtly and otherwise, often show up in "classical" music.  Composers have long drawn from folk sources, as well as synthesize stylized dances and melodies into their works.  This may account for such associations.

This is something I quite enjoy about European folk traditions - it often assuages the "genteel" quality of music to which I'm most familiar (as a former classical music student) in somewhat of an abstract or oblique way.

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Simon DS

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## HonketyHank

> There are a handful of makers in the UK making 'pointless' fiddles.  One of them, Tim Phillips (recently retired), lives near me - but I don't think this is one of his.


Actually, the lady playing said fiddle, Deb Chalmers, says in one of her videos that it was indeed made by Tim Phillips. His website is https://www.timsviolins.co.uk/ .

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## Eric Platt

And to take the discussion further off course, I don't hear any polska rhythm in the video from Ms. Chalmers. The only polskas that are usually played straighter are slangpolskas or Finnish polskas and I've not heard that bounce in the Finnish version. We usually play them straight. To the point where a 3/4 tune sounds to many listeners (and musicians) like a 4/4 tune.

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## DougC

Eric is right about the Scandinavian accent being odd. Ha, ha. So let's 'pick on' classical players now. (I am one ya know...). 

When I started classical violin after playing Irish music for 20 years I learned that 'they' work on technique of playing very even notes. Meaning that a quarter note played fills up exactly the time it takes to make up a quarter note. The full amount of time for every darned note. And that includes rests too. 

Now as a folk fiddler who plays as one talks, you can imagine the trouble I had in behaving myself! Furthermore the tone of the note must be exact and beautifully played unless 'told otherwise'. I'm happy to report that I'm doing it, almost...and I can spot a violinist playing fiddle music right away.



Now go back and listen to that guy from the Tulla Ceili Band playing slowly for the dancer. He was the guy that could control his playing. He has great concentration and I'm sure he worked with a metronome.

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## whistler

> the lady playing said fiddle, Deb Chalmers, says in one of her videos that it was indeed made by Tim Phillips


Ah.  Sorry, Tim!

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## whistler

> I don't hear any polska rhythm in the video from Ms. Chalmers


Sorry if I didn't express myself clearly enough.  I did not mean to suggest that the hornpipe in the Deb Chalmers clip was in any way reminiscent of a polska.  I was referring to 3/2 hornpipes, which can be somewhat similar to the 'semiquaver' polskas, which are played in an even 3/4 metre (not only slängpolskas or Finnish polskas - although perhaps the 'straight' kind are more common in the Finnish repertoire).  Of course, there are stylistic and structural differences that mark them out as being either a 3/2 hornpipe or a polska.  But I am reminded of this tune https://thesession.org/tunes/7962 , written by Northumbrian piper Andy May, who was playing in a band with Finnish musicians; he had set out to compose a 3/2 hornpipe (a staple of the Northumbrian piping repertoire) but his Finnish colleagues informed him that he had just composed a very nice Finnish polska!

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Eric Platt

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## Eric Platt

> Sorry if I didn't express myself clearly enough.  I did not mean to suggest that the hornpipe in the Deb Chalmers clip was in any way reminiscent of a polska.  I was referring to 3/2 hornpipes, which can be somewhat similar to the 'semiquaver' polskas, which are played in an even 3/4 metre (not only slängpolskas or Finnish polskas - although perhaps the 'straight' kind are more common in the Finnish repertoire).  Of course, there are stylistic and structural differences that mark them out as being either a 3/2 hornpipe or a polska.  But I am reminded of this tune https://thesession.org/tunes/7962 , written by Northumbrian piper Andy May, who was playing in a band with Finnish musicians; he had set out to compose a 3/2 hornpipe (a staple of the Northumbrian piping repertoire) but his Finnish colleagues informed him that he had just composed a very nice Finnish polska!


Okay. Thank you! That makes more sense. Yes. That tune definitely sounds more like a polska than a regular tune - here's Baltic Crossing playing it with Robbie Sherratt who also seems to be playing a similar fiddle to Deb Chalmers 
https://youtu.be/7UNLDht-XtE

What I meant by a Finnish polska often being even is more like what Antti Jarvela plays in this video. Again, it's 3/4 time although one might not know it by the foot taps - 
https://youtu.be/Hm1tI5kBQLY

Sorry that I've taken this way far afield from the actual hornpipes. I will now go sit in the corner and work on Vankarin Polska for penance.

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whistler

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## whistler

> ... it's 3/4 time although one might not know it by the foot taps ...


Yes, the 3-pulse is not immediately obvious without counting it.  Traditions and conventions notwithstanding, there would be a case for notating a tune like this in 3/2, since each of the beats has quite a lot going on in it (But what is notation anyway? It's what it sounds like that matters).  The phrase structure is certainly very different from any 3/2 hornpipe, though - in 3/2 hornpipes, the phrases tend to line up squarely with the barlines (allowing for anacruses).

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