# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Mandolincafe Restoration Challenge

## Darryl Wolfe

OK.  I have discussed this with Scott (and Dan) and we believe this will be a fun project.  I hereby donate this mandolin to the Cafe and will serve as a sub-moderator over this thread.  The object will be involve as many of our member luthiers and our equipment suppliers in a collaborative restoration of this instrument.  When the instrument is finished it will be auctioned off here and the proceeds will all go to Mandolincafe.com.  I will also provide some sort of signed label and a certificate will denote all of the participants and their part in the effort.

All members are invited to join in with discussion here of the various aspects of the project and participate in certain decisions that will be made during the course of time.  Each luthier that participates will be asked to donate their time and/or materials and pay for shipping to the next luthier that chimes in "I would like to..do such.."  It is hoped that the individual tasks can be broken down to where nobody would really be investing more than 2-4 hours of time plus shipping to the next volunteer.

The first task is for me to check a few things out on the mandolin so that there are no surprises later.  Then we can proceed with determining the order of tasks.  For example, I believe it will need a new rosette prior to a fingerboard.  So, obviously the first task cannot be a fingerboard.  

I also think it may be appropriate to throw historically correct restoration out the window and invite some modern taste and variety.  For example, it is really a straight A, but I have routed the back for binding.  At this point anything may go.  I think this might be the first thing we discuss and decide.

Game On.......... :Mandosmiley:

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WoMando

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## Darryl Wolfe

I need to check the neck angle and verify the the top and back channels are the same.  I believe the top channel needs to be recut (especially if we go with something other than a single piece of binding).

Please note that this is a composite mandolin.  The neck and body are period correct, but not from the same mando

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## Darryl Wolfe

Part of the back

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## MikeEdgerton

If it's going to be changed it might as well become a snakehead as well, my .02 worth.

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## mando.player

This will be a fun thread to watch.  I've already subscribed to it.  Radiused fretboard?

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## Jeff from Point of Rocks

This has got to be one of the coolest threads/projects/ideas if I have seen here!  With all of the collective braintrust in our resident luthiers and supplies from vendors and folks- this will be an awesome, very unique mandolin.  Thanks Darryl!

Jeff Arey

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## Jim Garber

Excellent and I look fwd to following this one. Darryl, will you or Scott be the overseer and arbiter of taste or is it the individual luthier's choice? In other words, might we see a paisley finished harp mandolin?

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## jimbob

:Popcorn:

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## Jim Nollman

unique purfling around the oval

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## JEStanek

If the rules keep the mandolin in it's current shape I don't have anything to ask for but, if you could change the neck, what about making a longer necked vintage Gibson oval hole!  That would be interesting.  Alternatively, what about a virzi?

Jamie

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## mrmando

Pickups, and a volume knob that goes to 11

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Jerusalem Ridge

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## Will Kimble

I would like to be involved, please let me know how I can help.  Fingerboard?  Staining?  French polishing?  Fretwork?  Set up?  Darryl, please send me an email to let me know what I can do.  I would love to give a little back to the Mandolincafe.

Thanks,
Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

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## barney 59

So,If it isn't a restoration will it end up an old mandolin with new features or a new mandolin with some vintage parts? Are there certain parts or features that are pre determined to save? Could it end up an f holed mandolin for example with a new neck and raised fingerboard?

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## Will Kimble

Gotta be a 12 fret oval hole so we can keep the vintage Gibson wood and design intact.  Could be a radiused fingerboard, banjo frets, adjustable bridge, James tailpiece, and so on.  Just my $.02...

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

I'd like to "give back" some as well!  I'll volunteer for the fingerboard installation.  I just did an A-jr. and have replaced the board on a Loar.  After the rosette and neck installation, get it over to me and I'll hide glue a new board (bound?) on it!  I think it should be a moderate radius.  Darryl, you can e-mail me at knoxdude@charter.net 

Lynn

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## Gail Hester

Me too.  Darryl, just let me know what I can help with.

I think a 16 inch radius works well on these since it's barely noticeable yet adds some playing comfort.

I like to know what the graduations are before proceeding with a project like this so we may want to consider that along with an internal inspection.

For Mike, I don't recommend a change from paddle head to snake head because that logo may not fit on a snake shape.  Some of the early snakes had the holes through the logo and there were various changes to the logo attempting to get it to fit on the narrower peg head.   The change would involve removing the overlay, plugging the holes, re-shaping, re-drilling and adding a new overlay with a smaller logo.  The peg head looks to be in great shape so I wouldn't change it.  But, if we want to do that I would be happy to take on that part or anything else I am asked to do.

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## grassrootphilosopher

This is a very interesting project!

Though I am no luthier, I would like to chime in with regards to the overall procedure. I think it might be overly interesting for all participants if a documentation of the restoration will be provided. There is the collaboration Zeidler archtop guitar that many a luthier worked on and that Stan Jay has/had for sale. This is the kind of documentation I am thinking of.

Aditionally I would like to see an "all hide glue" project.

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## Fretbear

Great project, Darryl. 
I was wondering why an A-Jr. or A-0, which would have no back binding or name on the peghead, had that peghead inlay until Darryl revealed that the neck and body are not from the same mandolin.

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## Tavy

I feel too inexperienced (and on the wrong side of the atlantic!) to help out with this, but for sure I wish you well, and will watch this with interest!

Regards, John.

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## megamafro

Amazing idea.  I will follow this thread with eager anticipation of what will happen next.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Yes, as Grassroot suggests, I intended for the participants to pictorially document things here.  Since Gail would like to check things out before we proceed, why don't we select her as the first participant.  She can then maybe correct a few things, or maybe do the rosette thing.  Her choice.

I did check a few things out last night.  The neck angle is a shade low, but workable.  The binding route on the back is 3/16" high at the glue surface.  The route on the top is 1/32" less at that surface.  This could be corrected in the way the binding is scraped or by reducing the significant recurve in the back a shade.  Just an observation, we will let the participants do their thing.  

Thanks Lynn.  I vote for the fingerboard.  Will lKimball, let us know what you suggest.  I will pack 'er up and send to Gail

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## Philippe Bony

What about a left handed one?
(Sorry, couldn't resist!) Nice project indeed.
 :Smile:

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## mandopete

Wow, what a cool idea Darryl!  This sure beats the hack outta watching America's Got Talent.

 :Smile:

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## Willie Poole

It`s a great idea and I`m sure all of the builders a good at what they do but some have different idea about things like graduations and bracing so what if this mando gets sent to someone that doest agree with something that a person ahead of him/her did...I guess they will just have to accept it and do what they are assigned to do or have promised to do....I will keep close watch on how this progresses....Willie

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## recon

Since this is a Cafe collaboration, would some visible acknowledgment of that be appropriate? Fingerboard inlay? headstock inlay? tailpiece engraving? incorporated in the sound hole rosette? I don't have any specific ideas about what the inlay would be or say.

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## Darryl Wolfe

> Since this is a Cafe collaboration, would some visible acknowledgment of that be appropriate? Fingerboard inlay? headstock inlay? tailpiece engraving? incorporated in the sound hole rosette? I don't have any specific ideas about what the inlay would be or say.


Again, this is what we are here to do and decide.  If a certain person offers to do a tree of life in the fingerboard do we say no..I don't think so.  Also as I said, I think a nicely done label with acknowlegements would be appropriate

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## Dan Hoover

this is really cool...i'll be watching...is there any way of documenting this on video too?obviously not the actual work,a slideshow?but maybe of some of the builders thoughts?inspection? just a thought...this is going to be a busy thread...good luck and have fun to everyone involved..

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here is a pretty cheesy shot right after I got the neck.  It fit virtually perfect.  It is not glued in here.  I got both pieces off eb@y about 1-1/2 yrs apart.  I guess there is some possibility that they were originally together, but I doubt it.  The date on the photo is 10/2003..ha

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## j. condino

You an count me in on the project.  In addition to any work involved, I'd be interested in writing an article or two on it.

I've been keeping it under close wrap for the better part of a year now, but I'll throw out a little tease for folks. If you like this idea, there is a much larger project involving a big cast of some of your favorite builders that I've been spearheading and laying the groundwork for almost a year. I'll release the full details to everyone as a Christmas present in a few months.

j.
www.condino.com

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## Gail Hester

Darryl, that sounds good, bring it on.

James, that sounds intriguing.

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## CES

We need a drooling emoticon...

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## Austin Clark

I am up for doing the binding.  Got pretty much the same thing on my bench right now.

Someone want to make a new heel button? I can do that too, if need be...

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## sunburst

If you don't have all you need already I can probable do a little work to it. Just bout any job still needed.

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## Marcus CA

> is there any way of documenting this on video too?obviously not the actual work,a slideshow?but maybe of some of the builders thoughts?inspection?


Seriously!  This would be a tremendous portrait of a 20th & 21st-Century American experience, worthy of the Smithsonian.

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## DougC

It looks like a great educational tool. I hope the questions keep coming as the project evolves. I'm wondering about the finish. It would make a nice pumpkin. And the plates, can someone examine and tune the top and back? Are they very good already?

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## fatt-dad

Warning:  I'm no luthier, but I have owned a 1920  A3 for many years.  I think if you want the paddle head sound, you can get it pretty cheap.  There are just alot of them.  I'd think the process should include conversion to snakehead gradations on the top, which could end up necessitating the use of x- or tone-bar bracing.  The little brace under the bridge location may not be enough if it were recarved.

There is a certain "feel" to these old wide-necked tubby mandolins.  If you go to a 15-fret "A4-hybrid" design, I'd consider a narrower nut. Then again, I guess this would warrant a new neck and that's alot of work, eh?

This will be fun!

f-d

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## j. condino

From the great posts on snakehead plate thickness dimensions that she's had up this year, I'd say Gail's got the numbers down well. If you want to convert the headstock to match, I'll take it on. I do grafts and conversions on mandolins on a regular basis. None of them are or were forgeries. If I'm working out a new headstock design, some days it is a lot easier to take one of my personal instruments and  v-graft or hybrid on a new headstock rather than build a whole new neck just to try out a subtle design change before it gets worked into a customer's model. Complete scroll grafts are common on historic upright bass restorations when the neck has been trashed; I'm also a double bass builder and nerd.

As this progresses, it will get fun for all of us. I just hope we don't start getting calls from customers who are patiently awaiting their new build complaining, "If you weren't working on that %$#@&%! collaborative project with your buddies, mine would be finished by now!!!!"

j.
www.condino.com

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## Michael Lewis

Interesting project Darryl.  Let me know if I can help, but it looks like the buss is pretty full already.

I think the mandolin should be kept close to period design, at least until Gail has had some time to read it.

If you want a project to go adventuring with, why not make a new one?

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## buddyellis

Actually thats not a half bad idea Michael.  Why not make this one a more or less straightforward 'restoration' and then go a little pie in the sky and do a new one for next year?  It'd be a great yearly fundraiser, I think, for the Cafe.  I'd be game to help whatever needs doing, although I'm obviously not in the same league as the rest of you guys.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Agree..close to period design.  I will send it to Gail on Monday and we can go from there

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WoMando

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## Trey Young

very cool idea, I'm looking forward to following this...

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## mrmando

How about an internal label with names and signatures of all the restorers? That would also be the place to acknowledge the Cafe. 

In addition, a CaseNotes journal with additional comments from the restorers would be nice.

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## Bill Snyder

Martin this is from Darryl's first post in this thread.
_"I will also provide some sort of signed label and a certificate will denote all of the participants and their part in the effort."_
I think the CaseNotes idea is a good one.
As for Buddy's idea of a team or committee built new instrument I know for certain that the Musical Instrument Maker's Forum have done it successfully at least once with an electric bass guitar. That was over 5 years ago. I think they may have done it before with another instrument as well.
After their success with the electric bass they decided to do it again with another bass. They started it (at least the planning) over 5 YEARS ago. The wood was acquired almost 5 years ago and sent to the first builder. There has been significant progress on the instrument in the intervening years but the bass still is not quite finished. Somewhere along the way it lost momentum and is creeping along.
Their current build is still being documented in a thread at the mimf.com in the Jazz Session section. The thread start date was July 15, 2004.

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## atetone

This is an interesting project indeed. I am no builder and have nothing to offer except my own opinions, rejection of which would not offend me at all.
For several years I have had an idea that one day I would like to commision a mandolin or have one of my existing Gibsons re-built with modern designs but still retaining the vintage vibe.
My thoughts were that it would be really cool to have a mandolin that at first glance was an understated rather normal looking vintage mandolin, but upon closer inspection displayed some quality adornments and workmanship that really set it apart from the pack.
Things like full tortoise bindings; a tortoise (or black MOP) headstock inlay below the "The Gibson" logo; unusual but understated dot materials; and all of the "modern" appointments like radiussed board, new vintage appearing tuners, etc,,,
My thoughts were a mandolin with a very nice vintage, but somewhat muted initial appearance whose real intracacies only become truly apparent upon closer inspection.
A sort of classy understated display of really quality workmanship.
Sort of the opposite of the Rhinestone look.
With such an interest displayed here by some real quality builders I think that one of the challenges might be in trying to keep the mandolin from becoming "overdone"?
Anyway,,, just throwing it out there.
You never know, I might end up being a bidder.

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## mrmando

> Martin this is from Darryl's first post in this thread.
> _"I will also provide some sort of signed label and a certificate will denote all of the participants and their part in the effort."_


Oh. um...  :Redface: 



> I think the CaseNotes idea is a good one.


At least one of my ideas was original!

What about hitting up Mike Blohm for some Handel repro tuners?

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## Daniel Nestlerode

How about finish colors...
sunburst? tobacco-burst? natural? white face? blacktop?  Other?

Love the idea of French polish!

What about bracing?  Does this little guy have the Gibson single lateral brace?  If so, how about an x-brace?

Darryl,  More pictures!  Give it the Mandolin Archive treatment!  :Smile: 

Daniel

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## ash89

> With such an interest displayed here by some real quality builders I think that one of the challenges might be in trying to keep the mandolin from becoming "overdone"?





> Agree..close to period design.  I will send it to Gail on Monday and we can go from there


good choice..
nice to see this thing come down to earth a little!

FWIW...please get it to gail so it gets off on the good foot!!  :Grin:

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## mandozilla

Dang! What a great idea! I'm no luthier but I'd like contribute to this project in some way. 

Would it be possible to set up a donation account (maybe via PayPal?) to help defray the cost to the volunteer luthiers of materials, shipping , and what have you?  :Grin: 

 :Coffee:  :Mandosmiley:

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## Steve Etter

I'm with Mandozilla - I would certainly like to contribute in some way and I like the idea of the Paypal method.  If there is some other way (digital editing for example) that would be cool, too.

Steve

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## Gail Hester

> Would it be possible to set up a donation account (maybe via PayPal?) to help defray the cost to the volunteer luthiers of materials, shipping , and what have you?


I don't think that any of the lineup of luthiers that have volunteered would accept anything for their portion of this effort.  

This is a very nice and generous idea however in the spirit of the project, giving something back to the cafe, maybe a donation to the Mandolin Cafe in the name of the "restoration project" would be a better way to contribute.

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## siminoff

Darryl...
What an excellent idea! I'd be glad to provide a rosette (although we only do the F4 style with celluloid center strip). We can either provide it and/or install it.
Going to be fun to watch this one...
Roger

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## Michael Lewis

I think non luthiers contributing to the project toward expenses would be a good thing.  Machines, supplies, shipping all cost something, but working out how it would work out might be more than a handful.   :Coffee: 

Your hearts are in the right place, lets see where it all goes.

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## mrmando

> Darryl...
> What an excellent idea! I'd be glad to provide a rosette (although we only do the F4 style with celluloid center strip).


That and the correct binding would make it a paddlehead A2Z ...

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## Gail Hester

Martin, I don't remember which rosette variation is on your A2Z but I have never seen the A4, F4 style black/white block rope rosette on an A2Z.  It does bring up an interesting question though in terms of what direction to go.  Since it will have back and fretboard binding it seems logical to make it either the A4 or A2Z.  It would require the correct rosette and headstock inlay for one of those models as well as a black stripe in the binding for an A2Z.  There were variations in the A2Z rosettes and here's an unusual paddle head from the archive.  

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2954

The A2Z rosette pictured below seems to be the most common for that model, same as on an A3.

I think it would be more straight forward to make it an A4 so I guess that would be my choice.

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## mando.player

I also think Martin's CaseNotes idea is an excellent one.  Sure the process will be documented here, but nothing beats the analog thoughts of these great builders assessing and working on this instrument.  I think it would definitely add quite a bit of value to the final price.

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## Darryl Wolfe

OK..I have given this some thought over the weekend.  I believe it best to make this an A4.  And I notice Gail came up with the same.  This will firmly establish the goal we are working to and will provide a few additional items such as the peghead inlay for folks to volunteer to do.  A period correct A4 would be blacktop with a large fleur de lis and rosette with the sortof herringbonish edges and ivoroid center.  We could also bring it forward some and make a 1920ish A4 with red burst and the smaller inlay.  Doing something collaborative would best be served on a scratch built instrument. 

I will work with Scott and weigh in later on the contribution idea.

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## Bill James

I would like to offer an engraved tailpiece. It could be a traditional shape or I have a few other options. We can work out the engraving at a later date. Let me know if that would be of interest.

Bill

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## Gail Hester

Wow, that is awesome Bill.  I thought I was going to have to grind my name off of one. :Laughing:  

My vote would be for the traditional design and maybe with the "Mandolin Cafe" engraved.  The last person working on the mandolin will have the pleasure of installing that and stringing it up for the first time.

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## Mike Romkey

GREAT IDEA! I have a fairly unplayable 1921 A, and have been thinking, "Hmmm...." What vintage are the neck and body? I hope to read a discussion of what is done to the sound plate and inside the mandolin.

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## mrmando

> Martin, I don't remember which rosette variation is on your A2Z but I have never seen the A4, F4 style black/white block rope rosette on an A2Z.


You're right, of course. Mine is the common straight-line rosette, like the photo you posted. I really should look before I leap sometimes. 

In one of Darryl's photos there's a number written in marker on the instrument's top: 143xx. Am I to assume that's the serial number? If so, we're talking 1913 or thereabouts, and here's a question: do you make it a slavishly period-correct A4 with a nonextended fretboard, or do you go ahead and do the fretboard extension? To many, it's not an A4 without a Florida, even though that feature didn't appear on A4s until 1914. 

What about a pickguard? Anyone doing repros of pickguards from this period? This would be not long after Gibson stopped using the chinrest clamps.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Yes that is the serial number.  Here it is next to a super clean same period mandola I picked up last Saturday

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## Darryl Wolfe

Thank you very much Bill.  I was hoping some of our supplier types would join in.

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## woodwizard

> Amazing idea.  I will follow this thread with eager anticipation of what will happen next.


Dito on that ... this is so cool!   :Smile:

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## Darryl Wolfe

Bump--Gail Hester has the mandolin and will be updating us on it.  She has discovered some interesting things that need some remediation

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## Michael Eck

Daryl,

I'm not a builder, I'm a writer (Fretboard Journal, No Depression, Billboard, Austin Chronicle and so on...).

If it would be of use, I would volunteer to interview the involved luthiers at the end of the project (or their portions thereof), to create either an article or an oral history regarding the restoration.

Michael

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## mrmando

Hey Gail, can we stop by Sunday night and have a look-see?

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## Daniel Nestlerode

> Bump--Gail Hester has the mandolin and will be updating us on it.  She has discovered some interesting things that need some remediation



Do tell!

Daniel

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## Eric Hanson

Michael
I think you have a wonderful idea. I hope it gets approved.

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## Darryl Wolfe

That sounds like a good idea Michael

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## Gail Hester

> Hey Gail, can we stop by Sunday night and have a look-see?


Martin, that would be great.  I sent you a PM.


I'm just about finished with my part and will be posting a bit later today.

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## Gail Hester

Hello All.  I have had a few days to evaluate the mandolin and to get started on the restoration work.  Once again I’d like to say how happy I am to be a part of this restoration to benefit the MC.  Along with the impressive list of luthiers (not referring to myself) who have volunteered to donate their time working on the mandolin there has been an outpouring of others from those volunteering to help with their talents and goods and services.  It is heartwarming and speaks volumes about how much the members here appreciate this site.

This mandolin is very rare in that it has both a one-piece back and a one-piece top.  I have never seen an old Gibson like this so that makes it an interesting mandolin to work on.  The wood is wonderful in the top and back and they are without issues although without a center line the mandolin poses some challenges for those who work on it.  Despite some restoration challenges I believe this mandolin will be very desirable when finished.  It is a circa 1918 A1 but there seems to be agreement to convert it to an A4 so that’s the direction we are headed. 

The Evaluation.  The first thing I noticed about the mandolin is that it is very heavy compared to others of the period.  Tapping on the top and back produce a thin/tight tap tone.  I used my Hacklinger gauge to map the graduations of the top and back and as suspected they are quite thick (see posted graduation maps).  The graduation maps shows the back measurements in red and the top in black.  Over all they thicker than I would expect to see on a teens mandolin and much thicker than on a Loar era mandolin.  The sides were about .098” which is on the thicker side of the normal range of between .060 to .100”.  In addition to the overall thickness of the mandolin the re-curve area is very minimal and is what I consider to be much too thick (on the top .160” vice the .118” that I would expect to see in a Loar era A4).  The only areas that I would question as being too thin are the inside or upslope of the recurve towards the center.  WARNING, Gail’s commentary to follow.  This is the kind of thing that makes me wonder what they were doing on some of the earlier mandolins and why I believe the Loar era mandolins are more refined as greater care was taken in the graduations and shaping.  I recently had to double the top on a 1918 A3 that was carved so thin that the entire top warped to the touch.  To me it was the consistency and refinement of graduations and shaping that makes the difference in volume and sound focus of the snakeheads over many of the older As.  Many say that Loar had nothing to do with the A-style mandolins and that maybe true but many things about them changed when he came along. 

So...the next thing I did was remove the rest of the finish and oxidation while re-shaping the neck and re-curve and taking a little off of some of the thick areas to bring the graduations closer to average.  That made a big difference in the way the box sounds and it is still plenty thick to allow for additional finish sanding when the time comes (see pictures).  

There were also a few other unanticipated issues.  

•	Neck surprise.  The neck had noticeable random hippie sanding on both sides in front of the nut so I removed the neck finish so that I could reshape the neck in that area.  I was surprised to find what looks like an original factory manufacture of repaired neck wood.  It seems stable and was under what appeared to be the original stain.  This kind of thing is not uncommon and I have found cracks in mandolins before where the original stain wicked through to the underside of the top.

•	Binding channels.  The back binding channel has been cut too deep in height making the ribs 1 3/8” in stead of the 1 ½” they should be.  This should not cause a problem for Austin Clark to install the binding when it gets to him.

My part of this restoration.  In addition to the evaluation and graduation mapping, sanding and shaping, taking some pictures and cleaning it out inside (I put in some rice and rolled it around which got some of it out but it still shows its age), I have made a replica/period end pin with MOP dot which I will send along with the mandolin.

Others will likely have their own observations and comments but these were the high points as I saw them.

Where to send it next?  I am finished with my part.  Normally I would bind the mandolin next and without binding the edges of the top and back are a bit fragile so we’ll have to be careful with it until it gets bound.  Since Roger Siminoff has offered to install one of his A4 rosettes I think it makes sense to keep the mandolin on the West coast for a bit and ship it his way.  After that it could be sent to Lynn Dudenbostel for the fretboard or Austin for the binding.  It will also need a red abalone A4 fleur-de-lis installed and a heel cap fashioned.  Then maybe it could be sent on to John Hamlett and Will Kimble for finishing.  It will then need the hardware installed and so on. 

I will start posting pictures somewhat in order from the evaluation/inpection on.

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## Gail Hester

More pictures after and during some work.

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## Gail Hester

Please let me know if I've missed anything that you wanted to see or if you have questions.

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## F-2 Dave

That top and bottom wood is beautiful. Nice work Gail. Looks like it'll be something to treasure.

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## Austin Clark

That looks great, Gail. A very thorough evaluation and nice pictures, too.  Email me when you are ready to send it on.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Nice work Gail.  I like the luthier with the mando photo concept too.  I hope our other participants will do the same.  It adds a nice touch to the story

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## Will Kimble

Thanks Gail, what a great way to get started!  Better to have too much wood than too little...  

Boy oh boy, that top wood is gorgeous!

Thinking ahead a little - I would love to help with the finish work but there are a couple things we should consider.  I have always used an oil varnish with a french polish, which means I am very comfortable with the final polish but I am not used to building with french polish.  If you want an all shellac finish (appropriate for this vintage) then I might not be the best choice.  However, I have played an outstanding '21 F4 that I believe was finished with the same materials as the F5s and it sounds spectacular.  

So I can offer an oil varnish finish with a french polish.  

I would also be happy to stain, scrape & seal with shellac.  If we choose to go with an all shellac finish, then it might be best for me to do the staining and then send it on.  Just food for thought.  

Best wishes,
Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

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## Gail Hester

Thanks Will.  Im not convinced that they were all shellac.  I use oil varnish and shellac French polish as a routine on old and new so that would be my vote.

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## mandopete

Excellent photo's and documentation Gail!

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## Charley wild

Nice work and great photos, Gail. I'm enjoying this. It's all I can do to change strings so this project is really fascinating for me! :Smile:

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## CES

This is so cool...

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## Fretbear

"Cinderella", the luckiest mandolin in the world......

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## sunburst

I'm not sure what the time frame is here, but right now my shop is shut down and I'm working on my shop building. If that's still the case when I might be called upon to work on this mandolin I was thinking staining and shellac sealing would be something I could do without having my shop totally back up and running, then send it on to Will for the finish.

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## Gail Hester

Thanks everyone and thanks to Darryl for coming up with the idea and donating the mandolin for the project.

John, I just talked to Roger Siminoff and he is ready to take the mandolin for the A4 rosette installation so I will be sending it to him.  I also talked to Austin Clark and Roger will send it to him next for the binding installation.  Logically it will need to go to Lynn next for the fretboard and then he can discuss with you and Will whats next.  I assume it will go to you at that point for a nice period A4 burst.

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## Jill McAuley

I'm really enjoying following this thread, and the great series of photos that Gail posted gave me a wee bit of an idea - might not be feasible but here goes:

Wouldn't it be awesome if there could a calendar made, using photos from various stages of the restoration for each month, and with the December photo being the completed mandolin? Maybe someone in the printing trade is a member of the cafe and might possibly donate printing costs? Then the calendar could be sold with the proceeds going to the cafe. Just a thought, and I know nothing about printing or the cost of printing so it may be a terrible idea! 

Cheers,
Jill

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## Darryl Wolfe

Bump.  I will send one of my repro teens A guards along at some point.  This way I did contribute on the work/luthier side of things other than just the mando hulk

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## Gail Hester

Darryl, if you are willing, I think you should get the mandolin back at the end and you can put that beautiful pick guard on yourself as the final step.  This was a great idea and you should be the one to send it to the new owner.  It just seems right to me I hope you agree and want to do it.  :Smile:

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## ShaneJ

What a cool idea and thread.  Kudos to all you luthiers.  Can't wait to see the finished product.

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## Steevarino

I got here kind of late, but what a great project!  I would be more than willing to offer up anything from the parts side of my business (Cumberland Acoustic) for this mandolin.  A new bridge comes to mind, if that has not been taken care of yet.  Or, anything else.  Just let me know.

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## mandolirius

> I'm really enjoying following this thread, and the great series of photos that Gail posted gave me a wee bit of an idea - might not be feasible but here goes:
> 
> Wouldn't it be awesome if there could a calendar made, using photos from various stages of the restoration for each month, and with the December photo being the completed mandolin? Maybe someone in the printing trade is a member of the cafe and might possibly donate printing costs? Then the calendar could be sold with the proceeds going to the cafe. Just a thought, and I know nothing about printing or the cost of printing so it may be a terrible idea! 
> 
> Cheers,
> Jill


This is a great idea. It would be a wonderful way for us average folks to appreciate all the time, effort and general good will that is going into this project.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Thanks Steve.  I was hoping you would jump in.  We will have to wait a while on the bridge as the mando has a pretty low neck angle.  Once Lynn D does the fingerboard we will have some more info

dgw

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## Steve Ostrander

This project would make a cool documentary film. I hope that it ends up as a webumentary...is that the correct term?

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## Fliss

What a fabulous thread, kudos to all involved. I'm looking forward to reading more!

Fliss

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## mickey.cole

is it some way to sticky this to the top of the board so i don't 
have to hunt for it please

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## JEStanek

Mickey, use the Thread Tools and subscribe to the thread.  The Thread Tools drop down is at the top of the thread near the top of the page.  Once you have subscribed, use the Quick Links drop down Closer to thte top of the page and go to your subscribed threads.  This way you can keep up with several of your personal favorite threads with out the Moderators managing the stick threads options and making some clutter.

Jamie

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## Bill James

I asked Gail what she thought we should engrave on the tailpiece and she suggested "Mandolin Cafe".  Anyone second the motion or, if I dare ask, are there any other suggestions?

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## Darryl Wolfe

agree

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## CES

No objection to either "Mandolin Cafe" or, simply, "Cafe."

Of course, Bill, you're the man...do what you think will work the best on one of your tailpieces!!

And, thanks again to all of you for doing this...too cool!

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## sunburst

:Coffee: 

What about a steaming cup o' joe?

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here is a summary:

Gail got it first and did the graduations and end pin and has sent it to
Roger for a rosette

Roger Siminoff is doing the rosette rosette and will send to Austin Clark for binding 

Lynn Dudenbostel will do the fingerboard


Sunburst John Hamlett Fleur de lis inlay and shading

Will Kimble final finish work

Bill James has offered a tailpiece

D Wolfe the pickguard 

Steve Smith has offered a bridge

Michael Lewis is a great candidate for overall setup/nut ect

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## Daniel Nestlerode

Darryl,
Would love to see Jason Verlinde and the folks at Fretboard Journal do a spread on this!
 :Smile: 

What a cool project.

Daniel

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## Charley wild

Another vote for "Mandolin Cafe".

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## man dough nollij

How about _The_ Cafe?

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## Daniel Nestlerode

How about  :Coffee:  ?

Daniel

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## Skip Kelley

This is a really cool project! If this mandolin is to be sold or auctioned off, would not a raffle generate more revenue? If tickets were sold to almost eveyone the Cafe', this would add up to a siginificant amount of money. Just my 2 cents. :Smile:

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## Max Girouard

> This is a really cool project! If this mandolin is to be sold or auctioned off, would not a raffle generate more revenue? If tickets were sold to almost eveyone the Cafe', this would add up to a siginificant amount of money. Just my 2 cents.


I agree with the whole raffle idea!  People who might not be in a position to bid might be able to come up wit a few bucks for a ticket.

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## wadeyankey

> How about _The_ Cafe?


That's my vote too.  I always just refer to mandolincafe.com as "The Cafe" to people who know what I'm talking about, it would be like "The Gibson". 

Another vote for the raffle too, 'cause there's no way I can pony up the dough to win that thing in an auction!!!

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## Charley wild

The problem with "Cafe" is that only members would know what it meant. JMHO

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## woodwizard

Either way... "Mandolin Cafe" or "The Cafe" both sound good to me. If they don't know what The Cafe is they probably won't know what Mandolin Cafe is either. Sure has be fun following this and watching it all come together. SO COOL! ... I'm for the raffle ticket idea.

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## JEStanek

I also like the idea of engraving it with The Café.  To me, the collect-ability of the instrument is because it is a Café project.  It has time, talent, and resources invested in it by the builders doing the work and supplying the parts, there is a great deal of community investment just in this thread.  

I'll leave the decision on how best to use the instrument as a fund raiser for the Café to Darryl and Scott.  I can't afford to buy it outright but a ticket or two I could swing (assuming the raffle is open to the moderation team too).

Jamie

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## mando.player

Ditto on the "The Cafe".

I never thought of a raffle, but that may have additional overhead that some folks may or may not want to deal with.  As Jamie suggested, this is probably best left to Darryl and Scott to work out.

Did the Case Notes suggestion ever take off?  I thought that was one of the better ideas.  Heck even a nice Moleskine notebook would do the trick.

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## JEStanek

I think having Micheal Eck, see post 65 and his recent article on Pete Seeger in Fretboard Journal #15, interview the builders and those involved is a superb idea.  The Case Notes thing is way cool too.

Jamie

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## jasonv

If someone will write it up (Michael E?) and there are good high-res shots available, I'm sure it'd make a great story. It won't run till months after the thread is wrapped up here (we have a long lead-time), but it's too cool.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Thank-you Jason

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## Darryl Wolfe

One thing we have not considered is a thin black overlay on the back of the peghead

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## fatt-dad

How about the last names of all involved luthiers on the tailpiece?  I bet Bill's machine could handle the font size (I mean they can carve the Lord's Prayer on the head of a pin and all).  Nobody reads these things from beyond arms length anyways.  I think the name of a web page (one that I love) just seems out of place on an acoustic instrument.  I think the collaboration should be immortalized on the instrument however.

f-d

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## Jim Garber

I would vote for "The Mandolin Cafe" engraved in the tp cover and the names of all the contributors (and their contribution) on a label inside.

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## BadeInBulverde

I'm here at the Siminoff Lutherie Camp for the week and one of the several interesting instruments Roger brought out for us to examine was the mandolin being restored as discussed in this thread.

Roger showed us the rosette he will be installing and brought out another old A-1 to give us an idea of what the target for this restoration would be.

It was interesting to see the mando and consider all of the skilled lutheriers that will have a hand in its restoration!

Between getting "hands on" with this "to be" unique instrument and Lloyd Loar's personal F5 and  the lectures and demonstrations ... the camp is turning out to be WAY more than a "how to build a mandolin from a kit" experience!  I'm really glad I decided to go for it.

My vote on the tailpiece is "The Mandolin Cafe".   :Mandosmiley:

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## Darryl Wolfe

This might be a good idea for our mandolin


QUOTE from Paul on another thread

Hey, guess what Stew-Mac is about to release (probably by or around the NAMM show in January):



These will be their "Teens Elite" machines. Nickel, molded knob, worm-under, etc. All I've seen so far are these drawings. They also have two other really interesting sets of guitar gears in the pipe as well. 
__________________

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## siminoff

Update (10/16): We've cut the channel and are readying to glue in the purfling ring today and then it will be going to Austin Clark early next week. This A1 (Sr#14374) is interesting in many regards. While the neck construction features the early V-shaped maple insert, it is also a fully laminated (i.e. three-piece) neck with ebony center strip, as compared to later versions that were one-piece necks with a thin inset filler strip to look like a three piece neck (on these later versions, the end of the peghead was painted in with a thin dark line to look like the laminate went all the way through the neck). The center laminate is obvious on this instrument and is seen under the peghead veneer. Lots of other interesting features on this mandolin, too, but I'll wait until we do the final wrap-up. Fun project...
Roger

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## Ken Olmstead

Now this is an oval hole to get excited about!!

As far as, the Raffle idea, I wonder if Scott would need a gaming permit to do that. I think one would be necessary in my state. Anyway it is a very cool idea/project!!

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## BradKlein

> While the neck construction features the early V-shaped maple insert...


You know, I've always been somewhat perplexed by that maple insert. I've never been able to make sense of it, or imagine exactly how it was done.

It would seem like a difficult job to make the insert and the mahogany neck fit well along their length -- hard to cut the recess in the neck -- AND, where is the advantage over simply making the neck entirely out of maple -- laminated or not.

Does anyone know what machine was used to cut the neck and fit that insert?

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## HoGo

> Does anyone know what machine was used to cut the neck and fit that insert?


Tablesaw. Two angled cuts (45 degrees) and voila! I guess it was done on rectangular neck blank.

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## BradKlein

Not to be glib, Adrian, but are you saying that the v-insert AND the recess in the neck blank definitely were made using a table saw (based on repair work that you have done or ?? ), or that it could have been done that way?

It seems plausible that the recess is sawn out of the neck blank and then the maple 'corner' of a maple block is laid in then the fretboard surface is jointed flat, and if that's the case there will be 'evidence' visible with the neck and fretboard off.

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## HoGo

You would have to remove not only f/b but also the insert to see toolmarks. I've seen those necks without f/b and the joints were quite clean. I'm guessing tablesaw as the simplest (cheapest) and very reliable way to do it in a teens' factory setting. Good tablesaw would leave pretty smooth surface ready for gluing. Or perhaps a special cutter in table saw that would do it in one step, but that is risky job... The angle seems to be 90 degrees so half of square maple stick would fit in nicely.

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## siminoff

I’ve had several of these necks apart over the years, and I don’t think the channel was done on a table saw. The bottom of the V is much too perfect and the sidewalls show no signs of saw cuts. My guess is that it was a V-shaped cutter with the neck secured in some kind of fixture. Yes, the cut and insert are 90°, and the wood is vertical-grain cherry (I inadvertently said “maple” in my previous post, focusing more on the lamination than the wood). Brad asks a good question about “why not just do a maple neck?” but I think the issue is that Gibson was searching for a way to laminate necks for strength and stability – and they clearly demonstrated it in this multi-laminated structure. The “argument” about neck laminations was important to them from both a marketing and a playability standpoint; the more hype they had for their sales literature, the better. I’ve also read comments in Gibson documents about their preference for the stability of cherry over other woods, but can’t locate it right now. If I get a minute, I see if I can dig it up. (Rosette is in and mando goes off to Austin tomorrow.)
Roger

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## Gail Hester

As Roger describes, that insert joint is seamless.  I wonder too how they did that.  Here's a couple pictures of a 1920 and a 1917 that I took awhile back.  I didn't know exactly what the wood was but I have other pictures that look even more like cherry so that makes lots of sense to me now.

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## BradKlein

It's a really interesting detail of Gibson mandolin construction that I think is seldom discussed.  Like most non-luthiers, I first became aware of it by noticing the 'telegraphed' distortion that is often visible in the headstock veneer.

I've never even known what to call the thing, but roger's 'V-shaped insert' describes it pretty well.  Seems to take up 1/2 or more of the volume of the neck?  Was in use from ??? until the Loar era. I don't know if it was ever applied to Gibson guitars, or where the idea originally came from.

It's actually a very significant construction element, although eclipsed for most players by the Loar era truss rod.

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## HoGo

> Yes, the cut and insert are 90°, and the wood is vertical-grain cherry (I inadvertently said maple in my previous post, focusing more on the lamination than the wood).


Are you sure? I've always seen maple in those necks and in Gails pics it looks like maple to me. The old catalogs don't mention cherry in neck, only mahogany and hard maple.
Well setup table saw can cut as smoothly as jointer, many classical guitar makers just cut the headstock end off the neck blank at an angle and glue it on without any jointing with invisible joints.

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## Jim Hilburn

I'd have to go with the tablesaw theory also just because as far as I know routing wasn't much of an option back then. They just didn't have the high speed motors to do it with.

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## delsbrother

Shaper?

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## Gail Hester

Here's another one, looks like it could be cherry.

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## jim simpson

What a great thread and concept. It is inspiring to me as I plan to do some restoration or recreation on an A3. A previous owner stripped it of it's white face and stained it. One can see the 1-piece top as a result of the paint removal. The headstock had been broken and reglued. The back of the headstock looks better than the front. 

I thought I would overlay a thin piece of some ebony that I have laying around. Removing the inlay without damaging it and then cutting for the reinstallation is a little daunting. I've watched a friend/luthier do it before and I've done simpler pieces. 

Gail - I wondered about the type of v-shaped wood in the neck. Here are a couple of shots of an extra neck that I have. I could imagine that being cut on a table saw prior to the rough shaping of the neck.

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## siminoff

Adrian, yes, I’m sure. And, actually it is mentioned in the early catalogs (I have the entire set). First mention I have found of it is in the 1908 “F” catalog, top of page 6. It reads. “_A large quantity of necks of almost every variety of wood were, therefore, put to the test under tension. Cherry proved the most satisfactory, although it sometimes warps. To eliminate these exceptional cases exacting tests of abnormal string tension were given cherry necks after having been sawed vertically and longitudinally and an ebonized piece of wood set in cross grain to the other two, when warping was found to be wholly eliminated. As satisfactory and permanent a construction is secured by setting into the neck beneath the finger-board a longitudinal strip, practically the same as above described but not extending to the surface, and is there not visible. The necks of the new model “Gibson” instruments are reinforced as per the above._” (Don’t you love the English of the day?) To Brad’s points, yes, I would say the cherry wedge comprises a good 50% of the volume of the neck shaft (not the peghead, of course). Interesting that they used vertical grain cherry for this when flat grain is actually stiffer. I have worked on one early L-1 guitar that was constructed this way but have not had fretboards off of an early mando-cello, or mandola of that period; I assume they were constructed the same way. Banjo necks did not have this feature, but the early banjo necks were laminated with an ebonized center strip. Gibson kept using this reinforced neck until Ted McHugh’s truss rod patent with the first truss rod usage being around SR#68500 (1920-21). (The patent was issued in 1923, but they began using the design as soon as the patent application was filed in April of 1921. The very first Gibson mandolins with truss rods boasted nickel-plated – or similar - truss rod covers.) While on the subject of cherry, many early A and A1 mandolins had cherry backboards (even though the catalog information specified maple).
Roger

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## BradKlein

Fascinating. Thanks Roger. It sounds likely that the factory really did do some experimental R&D to improve neck stability.

You know those early truss-rodded examples where the rod comes out right in the middle of the lower peghead inlay, and the metal cover plate covers part of the pearl?  I wonder if some of those have the 'longitudinal strip' AND the truss rod.  The ultimate 'belt and suspenders' mandolin!

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## HoGo

I never gave it enough attention but our local (Euro) cherry looks much darker and the newer catalogs mention only maple so I assumed it was used. But Gibson did strange things with instrument specs all the time.
I have to add that the first mahogany-necked instruments (around '21) with truss rod have also the triangular strenghtener above truss rod.
The specs sheets specify maple or birch for backs. I wonder how many were made with cherry? Or was that only during early teens?

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## siminoff

Our cherry is typically a bit darker than maple, too. Actually, all of the catalogs mention maple, but Gibson was a very marketing-focused company and stretched the facts a bit (the Federal Trade Commission wasn't established until 1914 and didn't really have impact on marketing hype until after the Great Depression - 1929-1934). I disagree that the early 1921 instruments with truss rods also had the cherry insert - it would have been a structural nightmare. Ted McHugh's cross-section patent drawing, Fig.2, shows that there is only the truss rod, truss rod filler strip, and the "ebonized" lower insert (to look like a three-piece neck). I worked on a rather intense truss rod project when I was at Gibson in the early '70s and in looking back at the history of Gibson's truss rods, I never found evidence of a truss rod AND a cherry insert. On the subject of cherry, I spoke to someone today who was following this thread and he was surprised that Gibson could get cherry. It should be no surprise; Michigan has always been a major producer of cherries and cherry wood. In fact, a 1998 study in the New York Times reported that Michigan provides about 3/4 of the U.S. cherries and (in 1998) had about 3.2 million bearing-age cherry trees! In the early 1900s, good cherry was more readily available to Gibson, Kalamazoo than practically any other wood they used for musical instruments. Also, I mentioned to Gail Hester today, that I believe the backboard on the mandolin that is the foundation of this thread has a slab-sawn cherry backboard.
Roger

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## Darryl Wolfe

> Our cherry is typically a bit darker than maple,  Also, I mentioned to Gail Hester today, that I believe the backboard on the mandolin that is the foundation of this thread has a slab-sawn cherry backboard.
> Roger


Interesting Roger..I may have to agree, I scraped alot on that back and the slightly pink hue never went away like it would if it were birch

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## HoGo

> I disagree that the early 1921 instruments with truss rods also had the cherry insert - it would have been a structural nightmare.


Catalog "N" shows such neck in crosssection (and I believe I've seen other pics of this in their other brochures). This pic may be just retouched (t/r added) older pic as the spline above t/r is not visible in the heel. On the left page of the two in the catalog (12/13), the spline is light color while the triangular insert is almost as dark as the mahogany.
But, there is this Gibson neck which indeed has both the V insert and truss rod...  I cannot see the thin t/r spline on the headstock end of this neck. I must ask the guy who took the pics whether it was there and the joint was that nice. Otherwise I would call THAT real nightmare to cut.

----------


## Rick Turner

Just a  word on tooling...  The use of shapers goes back to 1858.  Check out this brief history of woodworking machinery.  

http://wiki.owwm.com/Default.aspx?Pa...ookieSupport=1

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## Rick Turner

BTW, I'd expect that the Gibson of the early 1900s and into Loar's era was pretty much tooled up with the standard gear of the day, and a lot of work must have been done on shapers.  They're actually pretty crude machines, but capable of a lot of precision work with the right set of fixtures.

I remember seeing some Ekstrom Carlson "carving machines" at Gibson in the 1970s.  These things were like having a router on an extended grinder base, or like putting router bits and burrs on the end of a 20,000 rpm buffing machine arbor.  The bit geometry was such that they didn't tend to grab the wood, but the machines were incredibly scary looking...one of the worst shop hazards I ever saw.  They were used a lot in the furniture industry to do carved details, guided by hand.   At Gibson the were carving the hand stop area of necks that had come off of several stages of shaper table work where the shaper cutters could not get in without damaging other sections of the necks.

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## siminoff

Adrian...
The illustrations on page 12 and 13 of the N catalog don't show a wedge-shaped filler strip over the truss rod. If you look closely at the drawing (attachment A) you will see that the white piece is actually a thin filler strip and does not go the full width of the neck (as the wedge insert did), and what looks to be the point of the wedge in the peghead, is actually just a lighter section to illustrate the truss rod pocket. Most of these cut-away drawings are _renderings_ - that is, they are drawings of the parts, not actual photographs. In that time period, photos were _air brush retouched_ - as you suggested - in which an artist basically paints over an original photo to illustrate something like a cross-section drawing. And, often, these drawings are not 100% accurate. I think the artist was more focused on showing the truss rod (very important), and was less concerned with the precise shape of the filler strips (not important). But take another look at the top of page 12 you refer to (attachment B). It shows a new illustration of the dovetail joint with the thin filler strip over the truss rod (not the wedge-shaped insert). And this thin-filler strip drawing first appeared in the M catalog concurrent with the development of McHugh's truss rod design. (These illustrations did not appear in the preceding J, K, or L catalogs at the time of the wedge insert.) The photo of the neck you provided is a good example of the truss rod under a wedge insert - and I am not at all questioning that Gibson tried it. I just have not seen that the truss rod with the wedge-shaped insert above it went into regular continuous production. There are a LOT of Gibson instruments out there that have very unusual features that were, in essence, prototypes that became revenue units by necessity. When I licensed my truss rod patent to Gibson in the early 70s, we ran a large quantity of two different versions of the prototype truss rods that went into electric guitars that were sold (as FIRSTS not as SECONDS). They are out there, and lots of people own them (but probably don't know they do). This practice was not unusual and was a good way for Gibson to test how well the design worked out in the field. The 1925 banjo catalog produced just after the N catalog - and concurrent with the P catalog shows McHugh's truss rod drawing (attachment C), as do the catalogs that followed. These all show a thin filler strip. Lastly, I suggest not taking everything one sees in early Gibson catalogs as being deadly accurate. Print production wasn't as efficient in the 1920s as it is today, and images ("cuts") were used over and over, and sometimes in the wrong place. (Consider the attached cut [D] of an F5 mandolin in the W catalog, but wrongly described as an H5 mandola.)
Roger

----------


## siminoff

Rick...
Accurate description of Gibson's shapers and carving tools of the time. And, you might recall that the tool-crib was home to many custom shaper cutters. One was of special interest to me; a cutter for a spindle-shaper to cut the sides of the "double-cut" banjo peghead (but it did an ugly job and was quickly retired to collect dust). And I'm glad you referred to tools like this being used in the furniture industry. If you recall, Tom Fedders was plant manager then - he came out of the furniture industry and tried to apply a lot of that technology to instrument making.
Roger

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## Amandalyn

Hi All-
I'd be happy to give it a full Tonerite treatment when it's complete.
Teri

----------


## Rick Turner

Roger, I remember that banjo peghead cutter head.  That was one scary monster!  Major blow-out creation machine, as I recall.  The idea was that the neck could be run through the shaper with the peghead point down, neck shaft vertical riding in a fixture that ran in the slot in the shaper table.  Half of the peghead at a time would be completely profiled with the cutter running across the grain, front to back, then back to front.  In reality it liked to blow out big chunks and splinters.   Nice try...  Back to the pin router...

About ten years after I saw that setup at Gibson, I had to grind some shaper knives for doing pretty large crown molding, and I failed to sufficiently lock down the cutters when I fired it up for the first time.  One cutter slipped just a fraction of an inch, and the 5 hp shaper started do shimmy and dance on the concrete floor.  Everyone ducked and I managed to hit the off button before the cutterhead just exploded...which they can do.  It doesn't take much imbalance at 10,000 rpm to make things interesting.

----------


## Jim Hilburn

Were the belt driven machines of the early part of the 20th century capable of 10,000 plus rpm?
I realize this is a subject I know very little about.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

In my opinion they had a variety of machines including some sort of spinning vertically mounted rasps of various diameters used with and without templates.  There are way too many parts that display teeth marks that do not appear to be a band saw.  I also think they has some sort of round bladed band saw.   They did call this area the machine room

----------


## danb

I've heard it suggested that some parts (underside of fretboard) would be rasped to create cavities for glue grab

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Another thing to keep in mind is what I call perfect imprecision.  For example all 30's double cut banjo pegheads are off-center with the cuts on the right not being as deep.  I belive this to be from an asymetrical template in conjunction with one of the aforementioned devices.  We also see these rasp lines on original mandolin and guitar bridges

----------


## Woody Turner

"Michigan has always been a major producer of cherries and cherry wood. In fact, a 1998 study in the New York Times reported that Michigan provides about 3/4 of the U.S. cherries and (in 1998) had about 3.2 million bearing-age cherry trees!"

This statement suggests that cherry lumber is derived from orchard trees. I think it's safe to say that almost all commercial cherry wood is in fact black cherry (_Prunus serotina_), a tree native to American forests and roadsides that can produce substantial saw logs. I've worked cherry logs 30 inches in diameter. The largest stands in this part of the world occur in the northern Alleghenies, especially in Pennsylvania. Sweet cherries (_P. avium_) were introduced into North America as food crops in the 17th century; they are native to Europe and western Asia. They are much less suited for lumber because of their diminutive size (no one wants to harvest cherry fruit 50 feet off the ground) and structure (frequent branching and pruning). Wood from such trees would be prone to knots and dimensional instability.

----------


## Austin Clark

Hi all,
The mandolin arrived from Roger this weekend.  I will be installing the binding in a couple of days after I finish some dust free work I have going right now.  

The rosette looks very nice Roger, thank you for your time.

As Gail mentioned the binding channel is a bit uneven and needs a bit of cleanup.  Also the channel (edge height) is slightly deeper on the back than the front.  Initial inspection also reveals a couple chips in the side at the routed edge that may need to be replaced with matching wood.
Other than that, just a basic binding job!

I always am struck by the "Grandma's attic" odor of some of these older instruments.  This one is particularly pungent.  My wife even commented on it when she came in the shop yesterday after I had had the mandolin out.  :Coffee: 

On a side note regarding Dan's comment of rasp marks - On a few of these I have worked on, I've seen these marks on the insides of the back and top where they were glued to the sides, too.

I'll get some pictures into my next post.

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## Rick Turner

I believe that properly dried black cherry is more stable than the equivalent in maple, and that's one of the reasons that it was one of the favored woods for pattern makers working in foundries.  It's really a fantastic wood, and was often used for banjo necks in the 19th century.

----------


## Woody Turner

Hoadley notes that cherry has less of a tendency to warp than maple during seasoning. It is not, however, as resistant to abrasion as hard maple and readily scorches when machined with dull cutters. It truly is one of the most beautiful cabinet woods out there.

----------


## HoGo

I forgot to mention that the neck in pics is from '23 F-4. That is quite long after first trussrod instruments. They must have had quite a lot of the necks already cut for the insert when they introduced t/r.
Now I think the catalog pics are just redone pics of necks with v insert. The insert goes in straight line through the neck while spline over trussrod would follow it's curved shape (at least that was done on Loars) which is not the case of some catalog illustrations (pic A in Roger's post). There are lines on the surface of the neck in one illustration (B in Roger's post) that (in my catalog pics of poorer quality) look like remnants of joint of the insert but that could as well be tracings of fingerboard to be glued on the surface.
Shapers could be used for lot of things at Gibson. Dovetails sem to be cut very cleanly in necks. I would expect much poorer fit were they done by hand. I would still vote for tablesaw for the insert cut, shapers are dangerous when lot of wood is removed. And I believe it would be faster to make two tablesaw cuts than cutting the whole notch at once with shaper.

----------


## Rick Turner

Adrian, frankly, I think it highly unlikely that the did that in two passes on a table saw, and that is a nothing cut for a shaper.  This was a production setup, and they would not have wanted to re-register the part to make two passes unless you are implying a cutterhead mounted on a table saw...which would not be a bad way to do this with a jig to get the center line right.

The may have even had a matching pair of cutters, one for the slot, one for the cherry or maple insert, and that would certainly have been a shaper cutter.

I've got a lot of time in on shapers in my day shaping necks and bodies for (mostly) electric basses at Alembic, making moldings, etc.  I now prefer a pin router as the all around champ, but I'd use shapers again if I needed to.   I don't think that most luthiers do have hours of production time in on shapers...they're really mostly found in real production woodworking and cabinet shops, and then you're cranking at least dozens of identical parts at a time.  But in a production environment like Gibson has been for well over 100 years, you'd have "state of the art", more or less, at any time to save time.  That's how they made money...by making instruments quickly.  They knew that even for the "hand tuned" instruments, the name of the game was to get rid of 90% of the scrap wood and sawdust by the most efficient means possible, then do only what was necessary by hand.

I think we have this Geppetto image of the lofty craftsmen (and women...especially during WWII) toiling with gouges and finger planes, spokeshaves, rasps, and scrapers in a kind of Cremona shop atmosphere.   No, Gibson and Martin both were more like high end furniture factories of that era, hogging out as much as possible with machines, and then hand finishing the details.  I think it was more Stickley than Amati.

----------


## Jim Hilburn

Rick, I know you and Roger have had the opportunity to see Gibson from the inside in your time.
Still to me the question is what kind of tooling did they have in 1904?
If they had electricity at all it would have most likely been for lighting only. There were no plug-in tools. Everything had to be belt driven from a central steam-powered shaft. I just don't know what kind of machines they had that early on.
We should probably move this tooling discussion to another thread, don't you think?

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## Rick Turner

We can certainly take it to a "vintage tooling" discussion.

Yes, central shaft, big pulleys, leather belts flapping.  Pretty amazing tools in those days, though.  I'll get the link to the old woodworking machinery site; it's pretty cool.  Most of the pre-CNC machines that we still use were in use in one form or another (usually scary unguarded blades forms) before 1910.  Once again, you have to remember that the US made most of it's own furniture in those days, and house building was going nuts.  Just tooling up to make Victorian house trim was a pretty incredible undertaking.  

In the US, duplicating carving machines came on pretty early, too; the original impetus was for making gun stocks.  More up to date gun stock carving machines were still in use for Les Paul tops, and a lot of necks when I worked for the big G in the mid 1980's.  

RT

----------


## HoGo

Rick you are right. I know that the machinery was readily available to them but those idealistic thoughts about less machinery seem to overwhelm my brain :-).
I would love thread about vintage machinery. I used to search the net for info on it but never found enough.
Re. the tablesaw cutting: I can imagine tablesaw set at 45 degrees with a fence set (the blanks were dimensioned to given specs). One pass, flip the wood over and cut again. I've never worked with shapers but this seems as fast as it gets and without added cost of the shaper and it's maintenence. But I don't imply it was done this way.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I would tend to think they "modernized" when they moved into the Parsons St bldg in 1917.

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## Rick Turner

I too can easily imagine the table saw thing, and I equally doubt that they did it that way.  Too many chances for error, and table saws of that era generally had tilting tables, not arbors.   I suspect that in many ways, the Gibson factory of the early teens was maybe better equipped than many small lutherie shops of today.   I know the romantic image is wonderful, but the guys who took over Gibson were in it for the money, and that meant using the best of what was available.  Don't forget that Kalamazoo was in the middle of the country and close to many centers of major manufacturing.   

I've also been in touch with Roger off-forum, and as he has mentioned, it's likely that all the machine work, including rough carving of tops and backs, was done in "the machine room", and the "luthiers" essentially got kits of rough machined parts, bent sides, etc., and they finished them off.  It was not one man, one mandolin; that's a pretty modern and/or very small shop way of building.   It would not be all that different from any of us building from a Siminoff, IV, or Stew Mac kit.   That's how production works, and it's not a new concept.

----------


## Austin Clark

The mandolin is now on the way to Lynn and I am finally getting around to posting some pictures.

A brief summary of work:  Clean up and re-bind the body. Bind the oval hole. Glue down lifting wings of riser block.  Fit and install heel cap.
Binding was glued with solvent based glue and the riser block and heel cap with hot hide glue.

Also, I just want to say that this is a fun project and I am glad to be participating.  I hope to be able to see and play the final product sometime!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Wow!!!!!!...great job everyone.

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## Jill McAuley

Looks gorgeous already!

Cheers,
Jill

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## otterly2k

can't wait to buy raffle tix for this one!  awesome project...collaborative, educational, etc.
wonderful!

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## Gail Hester

Nice work Austin.

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## wildpikr

Kudos and thanks out to everyone for all the work, descriptions, explanations and pictures!  This is a great thread to follow. :Popcorn:

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## Skip Kelley

Very nice work everyone! It looks great! I love the wide grain top!!

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## Charley wild

Great work! This sort of thing is what makes the forum so much fun!!

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## sunburst

Austin, nice carpet on the workbench!
The bindings look good too.  :Wink:

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## Tavy

Ditto everyone elses comments - I know how hard it is to get a vintage instrument looking good when stripped - usually there's way more wood damage than that - or at least there is at the end of the market I try and restore  :Grin: 

This one though looks like it's going to be a real beauty!

Looking forward to the next installment yours, John.

----------


## atetone

Nice looking back on that mandolin.
It is good to see such a friendly collaboration on this project by so many talented people.
Fast too!
It will be very interesting to see the finished mandolin.
Good thread.

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## powercat

Holy Smokes, that has cleaned up nicely.   Great work, folks!

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

The mandolin arrived at my shop safe and sound just after lunch today.  The work done so far is top notch!  Someone is going to get a great little A when this is done.  The top has that great wider grained spruce with real good definition between the early and late growth.  Promises to be a fine sounding instrument!  I'll be putting a new fingerboard on.  Hopefully I'll be able to ship it out by this time next week.

Lynn

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## Daniel Nestlerode

'scuze me if I'm asking a redundant question, but...

Will the fretboard have a radius or will it be flat?

Daniel

----------


## Lynn Dudenbostel

The fingerboard will be radiused.

Lynn

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## Daniel Nestlerode

Thanks Lynn.
 :Smile: 

Daniel

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## DougC

Can someone post some 'before and after' pictures on the same page? This has cleaned up so much I can't imagine how it started. I really like seeing the old label inside the 'new' looking top. Great work everyone.

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## swampy

Where do I send my money for the raffle!!!

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## Charley wild

> Where do I send my money for the raffle!!!


Me too, me too! :Smile:

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## atetone

Was the plan to raffle this mandolin, or to put it up for auction?

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## bgjunkie

The plan was auction.  Someone threw out the idea of a raffle since a lot of us couldn't come close to winning an auction of this mandolin.  I know I would love to have it.

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## Scott Tichenor

This is a truly amazing project. It's a real beautiful piece of wood and wonderful to see it given a musical life by some wonderfully talented people... a second chance for it to make good sounds. I'd sure love a shot at playing it for a few days if it's in the cards  :Smile: .

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## sunburst

I'd like to get the chance to play and hear it too...
Here's an idea,  :Grin:  ! Some benevolent soul could pony up for tickets to fly all of those who have worked on this mandolin, along with Darryl and Scott, to Michael's shop for the first stringing!!

(OK, it was just an idea...)

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## Austin Clark

Yeah, I was thinking it is too bad we can't easily get a group picture with all the luthiers, the mandolin, Scott, Darryl and the new owner.   :Coffee:

----------


## Scott Tichenor

Tell me where and when and I'll be there.

----------


## Michael Cameron

I just learned about this project and first saw the thread today/read it in its entirety.

Very cool project;I even enjoyed the "tooling" posts;and,personally,do not think they are out of place here.

I just have to believe the neck-angle factor was/is being addressed. 

Many thanks to all contributors!

----------


## sgarrity

A YouTube video of the finished project would be nice too.

----------


## mandomania7923

any news on this project?

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## Gail Hester

> Yeah, I was thinking it is too bad we can't easily get a group picture with all the luthiers, the mandolin, Scott, Darryl and the new owner.





> Tell me where and when and I'll be there.


Hawaii - January  :Laughing: 




> any news on this project?


The mandolin is with Lynn Dudenbostel and he has one of the more involved portions of the restoration.

----------


## JEStanek

The Dude abides.  This project really is very fun to watch.

Jamie

----------


## Goodin

I stopped by Lynn's shop on Monday and he showed me the mandolin.  Wow it is going to be a nice one!  The work done so far is top notch!

----------


## Bill James

Here's a little macro of the under side of the tailpiece cover. Click on it to enlarge.

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## sunburst

Well Michael, guess we're well committed now, huh?! :Smile:

----------


## Gail Hester

Yeah, and don't make us have to scratch your names off. :Laughing:

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## JeffD

I would really enjoy hearing from the contributing luthiers how they feel about the differences between a collaboration such as this, and a single effort single vision project. To what extent were there decisions you might have made if the whole thing were up to you, or to the contrary, things that emerged from the collaboration that you might never have thought of or attempted. 

How does collaboration work among a bunch of independant folks?

----------


## Michael Lewis

Guess I'd better clear off some of those greasy motorcycle parts from my work bench and make some room. :Wink:  

Regarding my perception of this project, to me it is a single focus to get the instrument back to "as original" without much latitude for personal input.  

Now, if a new project were to be started with "from the ground up" design and completion as a collaboration among a group of luthiers, with every one contributing their own personal input, . . . . . . well, it would depend on the individual personalities and whether there was a cohesive design agreed upon by all concerned.  One could end up with an outstanding instrument or a piece of patchwork.

----------


## Phil Goodson

Is it update time yet?? :Smile:

----------


## j. condino

> .... if a new project were to be started with "from the ground up" design and completion as a collaboration among a group of luthiers, with every one contributing their own personal input, . . . . . . well, it would depend on the individual personalities and whether there was a cohesive design agreed upon by all concerned.  One could end up with an outstanding instrument or a piece of patchwork...


This new build project that you mentioned has already been in the works for over a year- long before the restoration project was started. A great group of some of the best builders in the country will be involved. Stay tuned during the upcoming year and you'll get to see and hear all about it. Have a little patience and the details will be coming out. Until then, NOPE, I won't be going over the details. The folks involved will be doing their best to focus on the instrument and not focus on if it will sound better with a blue chip pick vs a golden gate pick or hundreds of emails debating the merits over what type of strings to put on it.... :Wink: 

j.
www.condino.com

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## mandroid

Finished and strung up, again,  yet?

----------


## mrmando

Are we in the realm of timelines yet? 

If it won't be ready for the summer festival season, how about October? It could be unveiled first at CMSA in Seattle (I can set this up) and then perhaps at IBMA. It might be possible for some of the participating luthiers to visit one event or the other.

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

I got the new board on it today.  A little clean up tomorrow and it will be ready to send to the next luthier, whoever that is.  Gail called the other day and said Bill James is sending teh tailpiece to me so I can stick it in the box with the mando.  I'm guessing it'll be on it's way early next week!  It's nice to be a part of this project.

Lynn

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## woodwizard

Just want to say that this is such a fun & exciting thing for all of us cafe members to follow along. Sounds like it's getting closer all the time. What a wonderful thing to do to an old mandolin and to be done by some of the greatest luthiers there is. Just amazing! It's going to be alive again!

----------


## Lynn Dudenbostel

Just wanted to let folks know the mandolin has a new fingerboard and is on it's way to the capable hands of John Hamlett.  I thought I'd try to post a couple of photos of the fingerboard installation.  Please bear with me if it takes a few attempts....

Dude

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

And another....

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

And one more....

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

If I knew how to do those neat little thumbnails, I'd have done that.  I hope these are O.K.

Dude

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## MikeEdgerton

Those are fine, great shots. That thing is looking really good.

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## Mike Black

Lynn, Thanks for the photos of the progress.

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## grassrootphilosopher

Sweet thang, that. I like this thread.

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

I got the tailpiece from Bill James the other day and included it in the box as well.  It's very cool the way he engraved everyones name on the inside of the cover!  I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this venture.  I hope it brings a good amount of money for the Cafe!
Dude

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## Darryl Wolfe

That looks wonderful Lynn.

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## mculliton123

Bravo!!!! :Coffee:

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## amowry

Looks great, everbody!

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## sunburst

Just a note that the mandolin arrived here this morning, safe and sound, at 9:00 sharp. I'll have some scraping and sanding to do to get it ready for staining and I'll try to get started on that fairly soon.
I'll also take this opportunity to post a few pics, since I've already cut out the abalone inlay for this project.

I like to grab a photocopy of any good inlay example that passes through, and some years back I had an F4 with a particularly nice fleur-de-lis. I made some tracings of the inlay and compared it to an F4 that's in the shop now to be sure that the size is accurate.

----------


## sunburst

I chose a piece of abalone, superglued a cut-out tracing of the fleur-de-lis to it, and cut it out.
The pearl is ready, and I have another inlay project to do right now, so I'll probably have the inlay done in the next day or so.

----------


## Michael Lewis

From what the pics show, that sweet old baby cleaned up very nicely.  Good job folks, it looks very good from here.  I would like to watch the color process as John goes through it. :Coffee:

----------


## sunburst

One of my customers has become a freelance photographer. I've already talked to him about the possibility of shooting some pics and maybe even video of the coloring process. We'll see if it works out. I'll be staining some scraps for a while first. It's been a while since I've done a red burst and I'll have to mix the colors from scratch again.

----------


## Jim Rowland

Wow,John! I really hope you can get that photo/video project worked out. I've always admired your finishing skills,and would love to get a start on emulating them.
Jim

----------


## fatt-dad

I'll dive up from Richmond and take a photo (well, I mean lurk).

This is cool!

f-d

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## Patrick Hull

This is an absolutely outstanding project.  Kudos to everyone involved.  I would think that a journal and photos chronicling the project would increase the value.  By the way, has there been a decision as to how to market the finished product?

----------


## MandoNicity

I just discovered this thread, having been away from mandocentric interest for quite some time and just spent a good portion of my evening reading through it all.  Wow!  What a great project, sorry I'm late to it and didn't witness the excitement as it went along, but reading it all at once was quite an education.  I'm eager to see the stain.  Fantastic idea and project.  Adding my two cents to the topic, it would be nice if some sound clips of the finished mando could be posted.

----------


## sunburst

Well, this turned out to be a lot of work. I started with the peghead inlay, leveling and repairing the front surface of the peghead, then scraping to blend the contours of the top, back and neck to look mostly authentic following all the work that has been done over the years, bringing the recurve areas and neck heel into the new bindings. That was followed by sanding the whole thing to get it ready for stain, then staining and sealing, and finally by trying to figure out how to post pictures with the new forum software!  :Wink: 
I'll be shipping it off to Will Kimble early next week for varnish and french polish.

Here are some progress pictures, first the new fleur-de-lis inlay;

----------


## sunburst

I used several mandolins that are in the shop for color references and the sunburst turned out looking like this;

----------


## sunburst

Here it is between my 1920 F4 and a later "truss rod" F4 that belongs to a customer. Also a closer shot of it next to the newer F4, the one that the color matches closest.

----------


## sunburst

The back looks like this. It was fun and interesting being a part of this project, and whoever gets this mandolin will be getting something very nice when it's done!

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## Mike Black

Super job John.  The inlay and color are top notch!

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## ColdBeerGoCubs

Very, very nice.

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## JEStanek

Wonderful burst, John.  That inlay is fantastic too.

Jamie

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## amowry

Wow, that looks great John.

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## Jill McAuley

What a beauty!

Cheers,
Jill

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## Michael Lewis

Very very nice burst, John.  You are a wizard with this stuff.

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## MandoNicity

Wow!  That is gorgeous!  Fantastic Burst John!

----------


## Eric Hanson

It is a thing of beauty to see all the work that has gone into the resurrection of this instrument. It will be even better when it gets to be played, recorded and enjoyed by those who have worked on it, and more importantly, by the new owner, whoever that will come to be. 
 All the best to those who's hands have played a part in this project.

----------


## F-2 Dave

Beautiful.

----------


## tree

What a gorgeous mandolin this is turning out to be.  I sure hope I get a chance to play it someday.

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## grassrootphilosopher

That is a very cute color scheme. The headstock also is very tastily done.

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## powercat

I love how the wood grain really *pops* on the top.  That is a NICE red burst.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Fantastic job John.  Thanks for your effort, you tackled a bit more than I expected anyone to bite off.  Thanks again

----------


## sunburst

I posted this earlier, but the post was lost in the "massive technical issue that caused us to lose all posts since 6:30 a.m. this morning" so here it is again.
I managed to get Ben Hernandez, my friend, customer, fellow Cafe member, and freelance photographer/videographer to come out and get some high resolution photos and even some video of the staining process. We'll have to get together and edit what we have, but we should be able to put together a short video of the 'burst in progress and post it somewhere for those who are interested in seeing how it was done.
Ben donated his time and expertise to the project, by the way. You can check him out at http://www.benjaminhernandez.net/-/benjaminhernandez/

The mandolin is now on it's way to Will Kimble for varnish and french polish.

----------


## theCOOP

This is fascinating, turning out to be a magnificent instrument. It's the first I've stumbled upon the thread.

I know it's not exactly the same but my mother gets involved in _round robins_ with her quilt groups, where each member involved starts a quilt block, and sends it off to the next person who adds a block so that in the end, every member involved has a quilt or wall hanging consisting of blocks from each member. We have one such wall hanging in out front entryway where on each block is a hand written birthday wish for her.

It might be interesting to do something similar to her round robins with a group of members and an equal number of Saga kits. I'm not sure how it would work though, each member specialising in one specific task for each mandolin, or ...? Perhaps (I assume there are directions) each member performs direction #1 and sends it off to the next member and each member performs step 2 on the instrument they receive and so on...

Regardless, very interested in the idea of a raffle. It's the best way to ensure that the most members are involved and everyone has a nearly equal chance of collecting the prize.

I'd take it a step further and talk to vendors about donations for secondary prizes (gift certificates, straps, bridges, tuners, luthier tools...)

----------


## Jim Rowland

Bravo plus,John! Can't wait to see visuals of your process.
Jim

----------


## s1m0n

> Well, this turned out to be a lot of work.


Is it fair to ask if something happened to make it more work than you'd expected, or was this just a case of being overly generous with your time when you volunteered to tackle those jobs?

----------


## Skip Kelley

That mandolin is looking great! Nice burst John!!!
The inlay is incredible!!!

----------


## sunburst

Nothing happened, it just takes a lot of work to get an instrument ready for the finishing process, and since I knew I was only staining and not doing the rest of the finish, I fixed some things that I would normally fix during the finish work because I don't know Will's usual procedures and I didn't want to leave him with stuff to do that perhaps he normally doesn't do during the finish work. Basically, I felt the need to go the extra mile because I've been in the position of finishing instruments prepared by others, and I know what it can be like to find things during the finish process that should have been taken care of earlier. I don't think I was over generous, but there was no way to anticipate what would need to be done, where others left off and where I would need to start. We all want this done right, after all.

----------


## j. condino

Outstanding work John. 'So glad it went to you for all the extra effort ( rather than the dork with the sunburst video....). :Grin: 

Where do I get a lottery ticket?

j.
www.condino.com

----------


## toddjoles

John, WOW!  You certainly have lived up to your handle.  Did you have the recipe for the burst already?  How many test pieces did you go through to get those colors perfect?  

The extra mile often goes unnoticed, this is NOT one of those times.  This time you took it over the top.

----------


## sunburst

I'm still trying to figure out how you escaped this, James!  :Wink: 

Todd, no I didn't have "the formula", only one test piece, but it was a pretty big one and I did parts of it at a time. The color isn't "perfect", but it's real close and besides, the color is different on all the old ones so there's no perfect match and it's authentic enough, I figure.
Yeah, if was right much work, but it's for a good cause and it's rewarding to be associated with the other fine craftsmen (and craftswoman!) that are a part of the project too.

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> I managed to get Ben Hernandez, my friend, customer, fellow Cafe member, and freelance photographer/videographer to come out and get some high resolution photos and even some video of the staining process. ... You can check him out at http://www.benjaminhernandez.net/-/benjaminhernandez/


Way to go! Now that´s going to be interesting.

----------


## danb

> ...  the post was lost in the "massive technical issue that caused us to lose all posts since 6:30 a.m. this morning" so here it is again.


Whoops, sorry about that. Sometimes when I'm doing rocket surgery things explode  :Smile: 

Beautiful work there, that color is extremely sexy!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Let's turn our thoughts to the best way to handle the important part of this project...generating funds for The Mandolin Cafe.  I have put alot of thought into it, and I keep coming back to a raffle.  There may be several interested parties that would be willing to bid high on the mandolin, but that places all of the funding generated coming out of a single persons pocket

I feel like the raffle angle let's everyone participate.  I would also like to develop some method that guests and people outside of our close knit group could participate also.  Some sort of advertisement or word of mouth to other similar forums and such.

Ideas?  Pro or Con..let's discuss

----------


## boatman

How about the Mandolin Cafe maintain ownership and "lease " the mandolin to members for a short time (a week?). I'd pay $100 or so for this opportunity to examine and play a first rate vintage "A". It might generate more money than a sale or raffle and give lots of folks the opportunity to enjoy the experience. As a bonus, any appreciation in value would accrue to the Cafe.

----------


## sunburst

One possibility that comes to mind is; suppose it is raffled and the winner knows "interested parties that would be willing to bid high on the mandolin". There's nothing to keep him/her from flipping the mandolin and pocketing the cash. Do we care if that happens? Is it our business at all what the new owner does?
All in all, I think a raffle is the best way to get more people "in the running" for owning the mandolin, and I know there are many people who would love to have a chance to own it but fewer who would be able to bid competitively in an auction. OTOH, an auction would be a way for those who _really_ want the mandolin to sacrifice more to own it, and perhaps a way to increase the chances of the mandolin being appreciated by the owner.

Just philosophical ramblings there, really, to bring up some of the considerations involved in the decision. I suppose it really comes down to; what is the best way to get the most $$ for the Cafe and have the decided method generally deemed fair.

----------


## JEStanek

I like the idea of a raffle espescailly since then a moderator could buy a ticket or two, so long as Darryl manages the raffle so there is no appearance of impropriety.  

I'm not sure how much we could really force the owner to provide monies from subsequent sale back to the Café... maybe a contract with a held in trust?  You would have to include contingencies for if the Mandolin Café no longer exists when a subsequent sale is made (e.g., if it gets sold 20-30 years after the owner dies and this site isn't here). That may be a better suggestion to the new owner rather than a contract.

I definately prefer the (my) chances with a raffle to generate money more than an auction.  You could advertise at Gruhns, Mandolin Brothers, MIMF, etc to get it beyond just us.  We have members at Berklee.  What's a reasonable price per chance (Ild be willing to throw up to $30 at a chance or 2 or 3).  Just my musings on the subject.

Jamie

PS, I'll fully support whatever Darryl wants to do either way.  The goal is to support the Café, not et Jamie a sweet mandolin (I have several already).

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The "flipping it" angle is the only thing that bothers me about a raffle.  However, should that happen we could only hope that the person does it in the classifieds here and makes a good conscience donation back.  We cannot expect every raffle participant to have identical appreciation, musical taste, financial standing or longstanding mandolin interest.  So that is just part of the equation that we must accept instead of trying to equalize in some manner.  The finished product will always have MandolinCafe instrinsic value beyond this phase of the project, and it is possible that the mandolin will continue to return investment to the Cafe on it's own merit over the years.

So, I kinda like Boatmans idea, but it might be best to assume that the lucky recipient will do the right thing when the time comes.

----------


## sunburst

Would those of us involved in the project be eligible to bid or buy tickets?

----------


## Bill James

_"The "flipping it" angle is the only thing that bothers me about a raffle."_

If someone were to win it then re-sell it to make a profit, that could be a good thing since someone who is willing to pay a top price for it is likely someone who really wants it and will appreciate it.

If it's raffled, is it possible to limit one ticket per like the other raffles have done? FWIW, I like the idea of everyone having an equal chance.

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## Darryl Wolfe

I think the raffle should be open to all except one or two involved in the raffle itself.  Scott and I will have to discuss how to handle the raffle, and that will identify who is "too close to the fire".  Right now it appears to be only he and I.

I perceive a Paypal and or mail in donation with simple consecutive names and numbers assigned in order coming back by email.

We can use a random number generator with some sort of witness to draw the lucky number

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## Darryl Wolfe

We could also use a third party like this

http://www.random.org/draws/

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## James Sanford

FWIW, I think leasing the mandolin to various parties could result in damage due to shipping or even theft.

I vote for a raffle with a limit on how many tickets each party can purchase.

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## Marc Berman

I think a raffle would provide many more people who would appreciate this mandolin with the chance of owning it. I don't have the funds to compete for it in an auction. But speaking for myself even if the were tickets priced high ( $25 - $50) I would definitely take a chance on it.

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## Jim Garber

> FWIW, I think leasing the mandolin to various parties could result in damage due to shipping or even theft.
> 
> I vote for a raffle with a limit on how many tickets each party can purchase.


Not sure why there should be a limit since the intent is to raise funds. The more the merrier IMHO.

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## wildpikr

Raf-fle...raf-fle...raf-fle...

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## s1m0n

> Nothing happened, it just takes a lot of work to get an instrument ready for the finishing process, and since I knew I was only staining and not doing the rest of the finish, I fixed some things that I would normally fix during the finish work because I don't know Will's usual procedures and I didn't want to leave him with stuff to do that perhaps he normally doesn't do during the finish work. Basically, I felt the need to go the extra mile because I've been in the position of finishing instruments prepared by others, and I know what it can be like to find things during the finish process that should have been taken care of earlier. I don't think I was over generous, but there was no way to anticipate what would need to be done, where others left off and where I would need to start. We all want this done right, after all.


Sorry; I'm not trying to imply any kind of criticism. Perhaps 'abundantly generous' would have been a better phrase.

And thank you for satisfying my curiousity. It looks gorgeous!

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## barney 59

If someone were to win this mandolin they would then be the owners and would have the right to sell it or do whatever they want with it. It would be possible to attach a contract to the transaction whereby a royalty would have to be paid if this mandolin were resold. I don't know how that could be monitored. I know some artists have attempted to do that with works of art.  Artists selling their works before they became recognized and seeing their works selling for many times what they sold them for in their lifetime inspired some younger artists to attach contracts to their works so that they would benefit from future sales. I don't know how this has turned out. It would work maybe if something sold at public auction or a public gallery purchased it but a private sale would be hard to track.

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## Darryl Wolfe

As much as anything, this needs to turn out worthwhile to the participants of the restoration.  They have invested much time and effort.

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## swampy

Raffle! I personally do not have the money to purchase this kind of an instrument, but if I won it I'd hold on to it. Too many great hands have touched this puppy. I'd spend $25 bucks on the chance to own this beauty.

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## DougC

Could the instrument belong to an association or guild? I am in favor of showing it to everyone, at least for a while. Perhaps it could be owned by a raffle winner but not possessed for a year or two. Maybe it could be played by some winner of a competition?

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## fatt-dad

Wonderful project!!  That said, sell it.  Just sell it.  You all will do well for the 'cafe and simplify your lives.  I mean all this complication will not likely net you that much more money.  It's a $3,000.00 instrument, maybe a little more.  Maybe a little less. There was a lot of "love" poured into this project, but when it's done, set it free!  I seriously doubt there'll be some windfall potential in any short term that wouldn't be captured by the original sales price.  Frankly, I like the eBay option (i.e., keep it simple).

f-d

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## theCOOP

1) I don't see any reason why those involved in the restoration shoudn't be eligable to win it if there were a raffle. Such terms would have had to be negotiated before they agreed to get involved.

2) I think there should be SOME kind of limit for number of entries if it were to go to a raffle. On one hand, yes, the interest is to generate funds for the Cafe, but on the other hand, the reason most people are discussing a raffle is to make it more fair to more people. On the third hand however, though statistically speaking, more ballots = greater probability of winning, it doesn't however guarantee it. Perhaps one person may be willing to risk a few hundred dollars on multiple ballots, but at some point it doesn't make any more sense to have any more ballots.

3) Fatt-Dad has valid points, however because this project was taken on by Cafe members and for the benefit of the Cafe, I think it only best that a Cafe member should ultimately own it.

4) what happens once it goes to its new owner. Yeah, it'd be hard to enforce anything, but there should at least be some sort of "first refusal claus" for the Cafe, or members of the cafe through the classifieds.

5) will this mandolin get a proper appraisal?

6) surely there's somebody here with the know-how to determine which method is likely to generate the greater amound of funds...statistically speaking.

Cheers.
Coop

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## KristinEliza

Raffle...If I won it...I certainly wouldn't resell it.  I would love a chance to own this beauty...but would never survive an auction.

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## Michael Lewis

How about holding on to the mandolin until a set amount is raised from raffle tickets, say $3,000. (or?)  There may be some legal aspects depending on what terminology is used for the  process.  Like, don't call it a raffle, call it a drawing, or something else.

All monies raised go to the mandolincafe, a great cause, in my estimation.  Should help keep the lights on for a few more months.

Have it officially appraised by a reputable authority

Anyone willing to buy a large number of chances is very likely to appreciate the mandolin a great deal.  No matter how any limitations, or none, someone will not feel it fair, but you can't please everyone all the time.  Make a plan and go forward, and may the winner cherish the mandolin.

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## barney 59

I used to be involved with a raffle to help fund a program at my kids school. Businesses or individuals would donate prizes and the kids would sell the tickets. At first the tickets were $1.00 each. There was no fixed amount of tickets.  Everyone that was approached by a kid bought at least one ticket and some bought several. Someone came up with the grand idea that since it was for a worthy cause that the tickets should sell for $5.00 a piece and that people would pay it. The end result was that people didn't pay it and about 1/4 the revenue was produced by the higher ticket prices. My suggestion would be that there is a minimum number of tickets produced(to cover the true value of the mandolin) with no maximum and no limit to how many tickets that a person could buy. It would be nice if someone from the forum won it but if it was available to the public at large then it might raise more money. It could be displayed at say a NAMM show or something and tickets sold there. It could be advertised somewhere if someone could figure out where that is. This could be a nice story for FretBoard actually....Noted luthiers collaborate-- some nice pictures etc.  If the purpose is to raise money then raise it.  I would keep the individual ticket prices low. You can buy one chance or many. Like the lotto your chance of winning greatly increases if you buy a ticket. Of course if you kept the lottery in house the selfish side of me likes that ---more likely for ME to win it in a small pool..

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## PJ Doland

Before the instrument finds a permanent home, I would love to see 10 or 15 players on the board get a week with the instrument each to record something for a CD that could be sold here to benefit the Cafe.

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## Fretbear

Of course anyone would be delighted to personally own this very special instrument, but in my opinion the main focus regarding it's final fate should be one that most directly benefits the Mandolin Cafe itself. 
I would personally like to see the mandolin actually gifted to Scott Tichenor in thanks (and in return) for everything he has done for all of us mandolinists by undertaking the creation and management of the Mandolin Cafe. It is a trifle in consideration of what he must have sacrificed on dozens of levels, not to even mention financial. If this is not reasonable or possible for some reason, then I think that it should not be too hastily sold or raffled, but be widely photographed being played by lots of famous mandolin personalities, and in the process start to create photos and possibly even recordings that could ultimately all be packaged together with the instrument and which could then all be either sold or raffled off as a package. It's value would grow exponentially with this type of exposure, and the price it could attract become potentially much larger than it's intrinsic value.

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## fatt-dad

> When the instrument is finished it will be auctioned off here and the proceeds will all go to Mandolincafe.com.  I will also provide some sort of signed label and a certificate will denote all of the participants and their part in the effort.


Just to return this discussion from whence it came. . .  Trust me, I'm neither buying raffle tickets (well no more than $10.00 worth) and I'm not winning the auction.  I just want to point out, was there any doubt that this would be a spectacular instrument?  If the goal that brought the luthiers together was to give their time to return the most money, then an auction is the answer.  Consider a $20.00 raffle ticket:  A)  I wouldn't buy it (limit of $10.00, see above), B) You'd have to say when the drawing was going to be, C) You'd have to sell tickets.

Let's say, there are 500 active members.  Let's say half buy one ticket.  That's $5,000.00.  I think that's your cost model.  There is not a high likelihood that some high roller will buy $1,000.00 of tickets.  Too great of risk.

Let's say you get fewer ticket sales, that's no good either.  You'd limit your end result.  You'd do better with a prized item to sell it outright or at auction.

f-d

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## Daniel1975

> Before the instrument finds a permanent home, I would love to see 10 or 15 players on the board get a week with the instrument each to record something for a CD that could be sold here to benefit the Cafe.


I think this is a great idea!  In my opinion, this could easily result in as much money for the Cafe as the raffle/sale itself.

The mandolin looks great!  Thank you to all involved in this project.

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## Coy Wylie

When this project began it seemed there were two goals: 1) restore this mandolin by the hands of several notable craftsman b) sell it to raise money for the MC. It seems the first goal is almost realized. The second goal should should be approached by answering the question, "Which method of sale is most likely to net the greatest return for the MC?" If you can raise more money by selling raffle tickets, by all means use the raffle. If you think the cafe would net more income from an auction, then auction it. I realize this may be an over-simplification and quite pragmatic but again, what is the ultimate goal here? 

To me, whatever the new owner decides to do (keep it, sell it, donate it, etc...) is his or her business and not ours to judge or speculate.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Many very good ideas have been presented here.  I believe Michael Lewis's post along with several others has helped us zero in.

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## Ben Milne

I must say I have enjoyed watching this thread and am amazed at the wonderful work that has gone into this mandolin, and am completely blown away by the concept. It appears to have rebirthed what has become an amazing instrument.


Okay - I don't know if the following could work, and i'm no lawyer, but bear with me.  shoot me down if you must. -


What If the raffle was to win a 51% share of the mandolin... (or some other percentage perhaps? more?) 
Winner gets the mandolin full resonsibilities and priveleges of being an owner ('cept for major work) with the Cafe to have access to the instrument from time to time for designated functions, shows, events etc -maybe somewhat "a Cafe tour" per se

The remaining 49%(or whatever) would be owned by the cafe, (with Darryl, Scott and the luthiers involved) having a say in what happens to the instrument should it be sold. (i guess contracts would have to be drawn if details were finalised.)  The sale could be for the whole value of the mandolin, (In which case profits would be split appropriately) or the cafe may choose to keep its share. Should this be the case perhaps the Cafe could benefit from a percentage of profits made on each subsequent sale?

with regards to a contract it might be advised to draw a clause with some sort of insurance schedule.

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## Ron Hale

I'm not in tune with these guys who are advocating an ownership / future disposition contract with the "winning" of a raffle/auction.  I would not participate in such a plan, and suspect that many others would also stand by and watch instead of buying tickets.  If the Cafe wants to maintain hooks in ownership or have a say in the future disposition, then keep it.  If the idea is to raise funds, raffle it and let it go where it may.  Next thing, someone will come up with some idea that to qualify for ownership, the new awardee will have to demonstrate some ability to properly hold and play the instrument!  
The idea to pass it around the country for folks to play with for a week or so will surely age the instrument quickly, and possibly reduce the value.  Such a program may sound like fun, but the current owner(s) lose control of the welfare of the instrument before its sale.  
This restoration program is an excellent series, and gives us an inside peek at some of the genius and craft that these participating Luthiers hold.  Not only is it a wonderful progress report of the "old clunker" in its beginning, but also an education to many of us.  I am astounded by each new set of pictures that appear as the thread continues. 

Ronnie

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## JEStanek

Who will pay to ship the mandolin to these events?  Scott?  The new owners?  The Event Organizer?

At the end of the day, this instrument is like any other valuable item being donated for Darryl to raffle/sell/auction off.  There should be no strings, riders, other wierdness attached to it.  I say open it up to the larger world to gain participation too.  The more money raised the better.  Firehalls don't restrict their raffles to jsut firehall members.  The goal is to raise funds.  If we raise more than the fair market value for a restored mandolin great, if not, well the builders can still take pride in their efforts, the owner gets an incredible mandolin and a cool piece of luthier history, and the Café still gets some financial help.  Still a win win.

Provisions and contracts attached to this thing after it is won/bought by someone would do more to discourage participation than encourage it, IMO.  The decision on how to proceed is up to Darryl.  I'll abide by his decision and Michael Lewis is right, you can't please everyone.

Jamie

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## theCOOP

Yeah, getting too complicated. Sell outright, auction or raffle (no limits), no strings. It's all good.

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## Michael Lewis

Fatt Dad has a point, the quickest and cleanest way to raise money is to sell/auction the mandolin.  A drawing/raffle has the POTENTIAL to raise more money but certainly no guarantee and quite possibly less than a sale.  

OR,  give to Scott and let him do what he will, whether that be to keep it, sell it, burn it, or give it away.

Glad I don't have to make this decision.

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## mrmando

A way perhaps to raise additional funds would be to borrow the "Tone Poets" concept and get a number of good players to record solo tunes on this instrument. The resulting album could be download-only to keep overhead low. That way, people who don't win the raffle can still have the pleasure of hearing this mandolin whenever they choose.

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## atetone

First of all I have to say that this has been and still is a great project.
The services donated by the luthiers involved have been performed in an outstanding display of love of the art. 
 Great stuff!
On the topic of the eventual owner (however he/she aquires it) possibly re-selling it at some point,,, well,,, it happens all of the time with lots of highly desirable mandolins.
Peoples circumstances change and sometimes they are forced to sell their beloved mandolin, or,,, whatever the reason.. 
Does it really matter?
I think that maybe we are looking too deep into the "what-ifs" on this.
My opinion is that the mandolin at some point will be owned by someone and that persons circumstances will dictate what may or may not occur with it, if and when that time comes. I just don't see the problem here.
In the end of course we have to remember that it is completely up to Darryl.
I just hate to see such a great project end up causing any consternation to Darryl or anyone else.
It has been too much fun to watch to have that happen now.
I can't wait to see the finished mandolin! :Smile:

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## Dick Hutchings

Just raffle it and don't end the raffle until you have sold enough tickets to get what it's worth. Once you have that amount give an end date so folks can buy more chances right up to that day. 5 bucks is enough with this method.

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## Darryl Wolfe

I believe we have had enough discussion now.  Thank-you to everyone for sharing your opinions.

A drawing it will be. 

It is quite obvious that the participants in the restoration itself support the CAFE and were willing to donate their effort to this cause. 

I wish to keep Scott out of this as much as possible, as this is a member/luthier effort and should remain as such, all in the name of supporting this web site, the forum and the efforts put forth by Scott and all of the moderators.


We will make some further determinations shortly, but I am leaning toward leaving the end date open until a preliminary litmus test of donations to the drawing have been established.

With this type of format, it places the onus on our members to pass the word about the subject to others if we want involvement outside of the CAFE.  The drawing will be open to anyone who wishes to participate other than Scott and myself.

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## Darryl Wolfe

"Ticket" prices and any limitations will be determined in the next few days.  I am also leaning toward no specific limitation on number of chances that may be purchased.

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## fatt-dad

On August 26, 2009 this mandolin (and all it's blemishes) were donated to the Mandolincafe. Luthiers worked on it as an item owned by the Mandolincafe.  Leaving Scott out of this seems wrong - after all, it's his already.  Then again, he may want a project manager, whom I'd agree is Darryl.  Not trying to stir the pot, just wondering. . .

f-d

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## Darryl Wolfe

Agree, the mandolin has already been donated to Scott and the Cafe.  However, he from day one has wished to defer any decision making on the subject.  That seems appropriate to me.  Let's not assume that we do not talk offline to assure basic agreement

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## Darryl Wolfe

OK, this may not be received real favorably, but Scott and I have come up with some unforeseen ramifications regarding the direction we are heading.  After receiving some legal advice it appears that a "game of chance" is not the way we want to conduct business.

With this in mind, I intend to present the instrument when completed to Scott and the Mandolin Café on behalf of all of those involved.  He will then make any decisions regarding it's future.

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## Scott Tichenor

Couple of comments on this. I've had a lot of requests from folks wanting us to run raffles on the site over the years. On the advice of a close guitar playing friend I've been gigging with for 25+ years, this will not happen, and I've confirmed this with other lawyer friends. My friend Chris Biggs is the current Kansas Securities Commissioner and just missed being state Attorney General and he flat out told me, don't do it. A raffle requiring purchase is considered a "game of chance" in my state and running one is considered a felony crime. Secondly, all of those PayPal payments and checks--someone gets to assume the responsibility of dealing with the IRS or assuming that risk in doing so. It's not fair for me to ask someone to do this and I can't. If this was a school or church event and everyone tossed dollars into a fishbowl and we drew out a winner at the end, it'd be different. Doing it over the web complicates matters and provides a large paper trail.

That said, this project has been a huge amount of effort for Darryl and the luthiers involved and it goes without saying that I am humbled by this gesture.

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## buddyellis

I've been thinking the same thing Scott: a raffle (especially one across state lines) could be a potential legal nightmare.  States have widely varying laws on 'charity' raffles, so even if the Cafe is a 501 C 3 recognized corporation or a legally recognized charitable organization in your state, that doesn't necessarily mean it is in other states.  

I don't know what the appropriate course of action would be (auction?) but a raffle is a can of worms I wouldn't even want to start messing with across state lines.  Raffles are also potentially illegal under the 2006 expansion of the Federal Wire and Wager act, although this is a bit of a gray area.  I wouldn't want to be one to want to test that one out, though.  For instance, at least one state (Washington state) has declared internet raffles to be Illegal under that act.  While it may take a USSC decision to clarify that, does the Cafe want to be that petitioner? (I very much doubt not) ;-)

Also note,  if you were to award a single raffle prize of $600 or more, the Cafe would be required by federal law to file Form W-2G with the IRS as such winnings are subject to income tax under IRS guidelines.  I think it's a pretty good decision to 'just not go there'.

_P.S. IANAL but I deal with lawyery things all day as part of my job programming computers, etc.  I also slept in a holiday in express last night, or whatever.. :D_

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## Larry Simonson

I don't dispute the illegality of running a game of chance without a license, but on the other hand I can't begin to count the number of bluegrass festivals and concerts (in many states) I been at where raffle tix are openly advertised and sold under the conditions that you had to have a ticket to win.  The prizes have very often been nice guitars etc.  Looks like there is either some laws not enforced or actual wiggle room to me.  I'm hoping in the end a lottery can be run so I'd improve my odds of owning it from zero to slight.

If a lottery is not possible, maybe this gem should be put on the cafe's classified at an initial high price and drop $100 per week until sold.

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## dan in va

Y'know, an auction would take care of these sticking points.  It may preclude some hopes of getting so much for so little (lottery thinking), but it seems that a goal is to generate funding for the cafe.  I don't mean to speak out of turn or maybe I've missed something in the threads.  There's a lot of generosity around here to be appreciated.

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## Fretbear

Congratulations, we have a winner........!

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## buddyellis

> Looks like there is either some laws not enforced or actual wiggle room to me.  I'm hoping in the end a lottery can be run so I'd improve my odds of owning it from zero to slight.


It's the 'selling tickets over the internet' part that is potentially problematic.  After doing a little research this afternoon, I found several states that take the position that selling raffle tix over the internet is a violation of federal law.  Whether we agree it is or not (and I personally think it's somewhat of a gray area, especially if you don't REQUIRE purchase for entry into the raffle, but make it where the fee is really a convenience fee for paying over the internet and make obtaining an entry form somewhat cumbersome, i.e. requested by mail, etc, for example, google NPI Porsche Raffle for instance of how some 'skirt the law') 

I don't think Scott wants to expose himself or the cafe to any sense of impropriety or otherwise (and think that's a pretty smart position to take).  Some random state attorney's office bringing a lawsuit would erase any potential profit from a raffle, and then some, if not kill the Cafe.  :Coffee:

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## mculliton123

If it sounds too good to be true, It Is.

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## Will Kimble

Just a quick update that I have received the mandolin from John Hamlett and it looks beautiful.  I sent it on to my Dad (Fred Kimble) who will be applying the oil varnish with a brush - approximately 5 coats.  When I get it back from Dad I will take a few pics to show how it looks in raw oil varnish and also to show how I sand it back & french polish it.  

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

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## sunburst

Any chance of video of that Will? I'd like to see how you do the FP.

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## buddyellis

> Any chance of video of that Will? I'd like to see how you do the FP.


Second that, I'd love to get any details you're willing to share about the sealing done if any, and the varnish type.

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## fatt-dad

Yeah!  More discussion on the process!  This will be cool!

f-d

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## sunburst

I sealed the stains with sprayed blonde shellac before sending it to Will.

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## woodwizard

It's getting closer all the time. This will be an awesome mandolin!

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## Will Kimble

I don't know how to do video but I will try to share what I can with pictures.  French polish can seem very difficult when you read about it, and it can seem very difficult when you try it the first few times.  But it is very easy once you get a feel for it - I was lucky to get to visit Lynn Dudenbostel and watch him french polish after struggling for a little while myself.  Once you have tried a couple times, the very best thing you can do is watch somebody who has been doing it a while.  

Unfortunately pictures - or video - are no substitute for sitting next to somebody who is doing it.  

You have to seal the stain for two reasons - first is to keep the oil varnish from penetrating the wood and second is to keep the stains from bleeding.  I spray shellac for this, just like John did.  We use a linseed oil based alkyd resin oil varnish called Z-spar.  I won't be able to get any pictures of this since my Dad (in NC) does this part, but he uses a fairly big (like 3/4" or 1" wide) high quality brush and thins the varnish down a little with the recommended thinner.  We sand between each coat, starting with 600 and moving quickly to 1000 grit.  Obviously we sand very lightly at first, you do NOT want to go through and disturb the stain.  But you will...   :Smile: 

The key to french polishing - do I have your attention?  LOL! - is to build the oil varnish up until you can sand the whole thing perfectly smooth with 1000 grit paper.  No more and no less.  This usually takes us around 5 coats, sometimes 6.  The reason this is a key to french polishing is that a perfectly smooth surface makes everything easier.  I don't build or fill with french polish.  All I do is replace the garish sheen of the raw oil varnish with the warm glow of the french polish.  

All right, I am gonna get to work.  Pics once I get the mando back in my hands.  

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

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## amowry

That sure does make it sounds easy! I wish I could be there sitting next to you while you're doing it, Will!

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## Will Kimble

Hey Andrew - it is easy!  If you were closer I would just invite you over to the shop.   :Smile: 

Seriously, my Dad and I both have a lot of experience (hobby, not pro) painting cars and you learn quickly that prep is the key.  Don't stain until it sands out perfectly.  Don't french polish until the oil varnish sands out perfectly.  And so on.  

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

----------

jandrews

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## Will Kimble

All right, here's what's on the bench today:



This is 5 coats of oil varnish applied with a brush, sanded between each coat.  This is what they look like when I get them back from my Dad.  Thanks Dad, they look great!  

Notice the brassy, garish sheen of the raw oil varnish.  Also notice the dust, pits, and sanding marks in the finish - nothing too bad, but obvious when looking closely under fluorescent lights.  This is going to be a beautiful mandolin!

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## Will Kimble

OK, my job for today is to sand everything in preparation for french polish.  

Here's a shot where I am halfway through sanding the back, that is 1000 grit paper:



In this next shot, the back is fully sanded.  Notice the crumpled paper towel, that is to wipe the sanding dust off the surface.  The sanding dust will fill tiny pockets and other blemishes, so you have to wipe with the paper towel and then look for shiny spots or dimples.  When they are all gone, you're ready.  Oh yeah, don't sand through anywhere - LOL!!!



So now I will head back to the shop to finish sanding this mandolin and the two others that will get french polished with it.  When I have the whole thing sanded, I wipe it with a clean, wet paper towel and then dry with another clean paper towel.  Then I let it sit overnight to dry thoroughly.  

Hopefully I will have a few more pics to share tomorrow.  

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

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## Andrew B. Carlson

Looks amazing Will! I don't know if it's a good idea laying it next to those other 2 mandos though. They're so beautiful themselves! I couldn't take my eyes off the F sitting there!

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## Darryl Wolfe

Fantastic Will

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## Darryl Wolfe

OK...so DA me doesn't notice until now that we have no frets.  Have we worked our way into a corner....Looks like we might need to add another participant.  Ideas from those involved...

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## amowry

I could do it if you'd like, Darryl. I usually fret boards before they're on, but I always like a good challenge!

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## mando.player

Looks like fretting the integrated extension could prove to be quite a bit of fun.  Are there jigs available to support the top as the frets get pushed in?

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## sunburst

Yeah Darryl, I noticed we hadn't singled anyone out for the frets. I talked to Michael about it and he said he could do it when it came to him, but doing everything from fretting through the full set up seems like a lot. The only problem I see with adding another luthier now is the list of names on the tailpiece wouldn't include that person.

Lookin' good Will!

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## mandroid

would donations to a grass roots level  earthquake relief charity , and then the drawing out of a name from the hat  from the donors,
  but not having  the winning tied to the money directly , work? 

  seems, off hand, everyone but the winner can claim a deduction , including in-kind for the labor/ materials  .. 
 but I got no law or tax accountancy  background, to say anything useful other than what I just did. :Confused: 

back to the  form 1040 ..  :Mad:

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## tree

You know, for a long time I've been a one mando guy, my mandolin absolutely meets my needs. I've maintained and slightly modified it to suit me, and have never really been tempted to give in to MAS.  Don't get me wrong, I love to look, and hold, and pick other instruments, it's just that I've never really felt the desire to OWN another one.

With that last set of photos, I can no longer deny that this, too, has passed.   :Crying:

----------


## amowry

Hey, Will- thanks for the photos! Do you do all of your sanding dry? What brand of paper is that? Thanks for humoring my many questions  :Wink:

----------


## Bill James

_"The only problem I see with adding another luthier now is the list of names on the tailpiece wouldn't include that person."_

There's still some room below Lynn's name for engraving. Of course I would...ah.. have to have the mandolin in order to do that.  :Wink:

----------


## MANDOLINMYSTER

> _"The only problem I see with adding another luthier now is the list of names on the tailpiece wouldn't include that person."_
> 
> There's still some room below Lynn's name for engraving. Of course I would...ah.. have to have the mandolin in order to do that.


You got that  right! :Smile:

----------


## Will Kimble

Hey Andrew,

I do always sand dry.  It goes too fast wet and I can't see what's going on as well.  This is a special kind of sandpaper that doesn't load up and is great for sanding varnish.  Unfortunately I can't remember what its called - carborundum aluminum oxide or something like that?  

Will Kimble

----------


## Will Kimble

Just wanted to add that John Hamlett's stain and inlay work is remarkable.  Great job John!

Will Kimble

----------


## Michael Lewis

Will, you have taken the finish way over what a vintage instrument would be like, even (or especially) when new.   Somebody is going to think they are dreaming when they hold it in their hands.

I have the tiny and tall (.040"w X .050"h) stainless frets from Jescar that should suit, or several other sizes if requested.  That is unless someone else is appointed to do the frets.  My main concern is that the surface of the fingerboard be laser flat before installing frets so there is minimal if any material removal to get them all in the same plane.  That makes the rest of the set up procedure much easier.

What bridge is going on it?  Nut material?

----------


## Gail Hester

Awesome work everyone.  I’m so proud to be part of this project.

Michael, there should be an end pin that I made and fitted for it somewhere.  Darryl has offered up one of his pick guards and Steve Smith offered up a bridge back on page three or so but he needed the height required.  The nut should be bone if we are sticking to the period.  I can't recall if we identified a source for tuning machines or not.  I was hoping that Stew Mac's reproductions would be out by now.

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

You builders are a bunch of folks that are nuts for aestetics and I´m grateful for it. 

When the original finisch was strapped off, did the sanding diminish the top thickness and if yes how much? As this is allways a point of discussion with guitars I am wondering here. 

Looking forward to further pictures etc. A final soundbyte/youtube on this thread would be the icing on the cake.

----------


## Skip Kelley

Awesome work all! John, great job on the stain colors! Will, beautiful work by you and your dad!!

----------


## fatt-dad

All of a sudden I want to buy this mandolin!

f-d

----------


## mandopete

All of a sudden I want to hear this mandolin!

Hopefully we will get some sound clips when it gets strung up.

 :Wink:

----------


## Rroyd

What would the ramifications be on Mandroid's suggestion regarding donations and eligibility for a drawing for the mandolin?  This would seem to be a way of avoiding the legal problems of a raffle, yet allow for a maximum number of people to be involved in the possibility of ownership.  It might be a good way to raise money for the scholarship fund, if it could be done within the boundaries of the law.

----------


## Gail Hester

> When the original finisch was strapped off, did the sanding diminish the top thickness and if yes how much? As this is allways a point of discussion with guitars I am wondering here.


Before I did any sanding I made a graduation map of the top and back using a Hacklinger gauge.  I also provided before and after graduation maps that went along with the mandolin as a reference for the other builders.  You can review the preliminary work and findings starting at post #71.

----------


## sunburst

During final sanding, I paid attention to Gail's graduation map and sanded as little as possible to get it ready for the 'burst, avoiding thin places (one in particular). I did take off some wood at the neck heel and around the edges of the plates near the bindings to improve the contours in preparation for gloss (which will highlight any "off" contours), but that doesn't affect the grads. There's always some slight thinning during final sanding.

----------


## Rob Gerety

I've been lurking.  Wonderful thread and project.  That mandolin really is lovely.  I cannot tell you how much that mandolin looks like my A4.  The color is excellent.  The grain looks identical. The whole thing is gorgeous. It would be nice to fit some of the expected stew mac tuners - even if it means a bit of a wait.

----------


## Michael Lewis

Looks like there is some interest in this thread lately.  Small wonder, that.

Darryl, are you sourcing the parts?    You seem to be the "ring leader" in this adventure.

----------


## Will Kimble

Hi Michael,

It is a compound radius fingerboard.  After discussing it with Lynn, I used a 10" sanding block near the nut, a 12" in the middle, and a 16" near the soundhole.  Hopefully this info will help with planning for the fretwork.

Best wishes,
Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

----------


## steve V. johnson

It sure is fun to watch you luthiers collaborate on all this.  Just fantastic.

The mandolin is just one product of this;  the information and cooperative spirit and 
wonderfully among the others.

Respect, admiration and gratitude to you all. 

stv

----------


## Michael Lewis

Hey, thanks Will, compound radius is fine.  I have done several like that and like them very well.  My float glass faced 17" sanding block will be just fine.  Of course, it is what I use on nearly all my fret jobs. :Laughing:

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> Before I did any sanding I made a graduation map of the top and back using a Hacklinger gauge.  I also provided before and after graduation maps that went along with the mandolin as a reference for the other builders.  You can review the preliminary work and findings starting at post #71.


Ma´am, you proved that I was to lazy checking the thread for information in this direction.

Nevertheless - and may I stray a bit from the immediate topic of this thread - I found that while a vintage guitar not only looses half of its value with a refinish there is also discussion if a refinish does sacrifice the guitar´s structural integrity (generaly by sanding the top). What´s the general consensus with you luthiers. Is there room for this kind of discussion in the mandolin field also?

While I read post #71 and following I gathered that in this case the structure of the instrument was rather improved by taking some wood off in the process of sanding away the unwanted finish.  Though in general it would not necessarily be that way, right?

----------


## PaulO

This is so great that all you lootheers(my sp.) have gotten into the spirit of this.  Everyone who has touched this mando have just added to the magic of what this instrument will become. Perfect in every way.

----------


## mrmando

> I can't recall if we identified a source for tuning machines or not.  I was hoping that Stew Mac's reproductions would be out by now.


I have a set of period A-tuners I would consider donating, if they are needed.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Thank you everyone for your comments and offers.  Andrew, I believe it best to let Michael do the frets at this juncture of the project.  As far as parts, I think we should wait/hold out hope that we can get a set of the new Stew Mac, Steve is offering up a bridge, I will do the pickguard and the TP is already covered by Bill

I will contact Stew Mac

----------


## amowry

Sounds fine, Darryl. I can't wait to see the finished results!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I am happy to announce:

Hi Darryl,
StewMac would be happy to contribute a set to this project. At this point we only have the prototypes. Production sets could arrive in 4-8 weeks. How soon do you think you'd need them? I certainly could ask for a set of the proto's if that is required to meet a deadline. Below is a photo of an old original (above) and a new, antiqued half (below).

They will be available in antiqued and brite nickel metal, with buttons in either cream, black or ivoroid.

Let me know which ones you want and when you absolutely have to have them. 

Best Wishes,
Don

Don MacRostie
Stewart-MacDonald

----------


## Gail Hester

Wow Darryl, those are a dream come true.  I love the antiqued version with ivoroid.

----------


## amowry

Cool!

----------


## Michael Lewis

Will, are you there?  Could you lay a straight edge on the fingerboard and project it to the bridge area?  What is that distance between the top and the straight edge?  This will help Steve select a bridge.

Whatever plating you get I will be happy to install, and old looking stuff is nice, but many of the old Gibsons I have seen had nice shiny nickel plating with a little bit of "accumulation" down in the crevices.  I like ivoroid for the buttons too.

----------


## Gail Hester

I agree with Michael that the shiny ones would be better for this mandolin with its new finish.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Agree, I have notified Don of our selection

----------


## danb

Those are very nice looking tuners. Are they going to do an F set in that plate too?

----------


## Will Kimble

Hey Michael, I will try to remember to get a measurement for you when I get back to the shop.  Maybe I will just call Steve with the info?

OK, here is some more stuff about how I french polish.  This is my tool kit:



I started out mixing the shellac myself - first with Everclear and then denatured alcohol.  I switched to Zinsser Bullseye premixed french polish and really liked it, then they quit making it.  Now I am using a premixed french polish from Liberon that I buy on Ebay from an outfit on Long Island.  I really like the premixed stuff, I think it has some additives that makes it more forgiving to french polish with.  

I use walnut oil that I get at my local Kroger.  I like walnut oil because over time it will eventually polymerize and become part of the finish.  I tried some others, but this works for me.  

One mason jar has denatured alcohol in it, I use it to thin the premixed french polish.  I keep my pads (fads, tampons, whatever) in the other one.  

I use old t-shirts cut into roughly 4" X 4" squares.  And I use the pipettes to add shellac or alcohol to the pad.  

Here's a shot of my "workstation":



The pad material is from an old pair of long underwear.  I use the larger one 99% of the time.  The smaller one gets smeared with oil and french polish and I jam it under the fingerboard extension or any place else that is hard to reach.  By the way, I have been using these two bits for 10 years, LOL!

Here is how I add french polish (or alcohol) to the pad:



Fill the inside of the pad so it will disperse and come out slowly and uniformly.  If not, the pad will get too wet.  When you are rolling, a couple drops will do.  And when you are getting started, it might take a fair amount.  

Here is where I put the oil:



I just dab the outside (cover) of the pad on the back of my hand as necessary.  If you put the oil on the pad, you will inevitably get too much.  This helps me control the amount.  

I was taught (by Lynn Dudenbostel) that the pad should be wet enough to leave a textured print on paper.  A blot means it is too wet, and anything else is too dry.  I have a feel for it now and don't check it this way anymore, but it can be helpful when you are getting started.  

More in the next post,
Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

----------


## Will Kimble

OK, more french polish stuff.  

I use a fair amount of oil the first round, and I keep the pad pretty wet.  The pad wants to grab a lot on the sanded surface, and it will dry your pad quickly.  I use the french polish mix straight from the bottle.  Keep the pad moving, if it stops it will leave a mark that will have to be sanded out.  No problem, grab the 1000 grit, sand it flat, pick up a little oil and go back over it.  

I have a system and I prefer to french polish two mandolins at once.  First I go over the back and the back of the headstock, then set it down and do the same on the other mandolin.  By the time I am through, the first mandolin is ready to be handled.  I then do the bass side & side of headstock, the top & face of headstock, the treble side & side of headstock, then the neck.

On the first round, I am just trying to get good coverage.  By the way, I will probably go over each surface 4 or 5 times in this round before moving on.  Keep an eye on the pad, it can gum up with oil.  If it does, move the pad to a fresh spot on the cover, add some FP and oil and get back after it.  If the pad is too dry, add FP.  If it is too wet, move to a fresh spot on the cover and it will soak some up.  If it is wet you will need to move quickly in big circles.  Once it starts to dry you can slow down, but it will want to stick as it continues to dry.    

You aren't smearing the finish on, it is transferring from the pad to the surface.  It takes a while to get the feel of it.  

I generally do a second pass over the whole instrument with straight FP mix.  This time I try to use as little oil as possible and I am trying to clean everything up.  

I then do at least one more round (and sometimes two) where I thin the FP half & half with alcohol.  Keep the pad as dry as you can stand, keep moving to a fresh spot on the cover, and try not to use any oil.  This is my version of "spiriting off".  The oil will cause hazing, and I am trying to clean that up as much as possible here.  

It is best to spread this over a couple days.  I then let the instrument dry for a couple days and rub it out with Novus #2.  Put a small dab on a soft cotton cloth and rub it - just like you are french polishing - until it is all gone.  This will clean off any haze that might come up as the instrument continues to dry.  

If I think of anything else that might be helpful I will add it later.  Please let me know if there are any questions.  

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

----------


## Will Kimble

OK, here are a few pics of the mandolin.  Just starting:



First pass on back is done:





All right, I am going back to the shop - more pictures when I am done.  

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

----------


## F-2 Dave

cool.

----------


## megamafro

Looking incredible.  Good job everyone  :Smile:

----------


## James Sanford

Will,

Thank you for your photo essay on FP.  One picture is worth a thousand words or so it is said and I agree.

This project is really super. I have been following since day 1.  Thanks to all who have shared and or participated.  Not only will this be a unique mandolin but it has provided several very important lessons to those like myself who are still learning.

----------


## woodwizard

Wooooo hoooo!! This is exciting! Looking good!

----------


## Skip Kelley

Will, that is beautiful work! I love the finish!

----------


## amowry

Thanks Will-- lookin' good!

----------


## Will Kimble

After 4 sessions of french polishing:





I will let it dry over the weekend, rub it out with Novus #2 on Monday and then it will be ready to head to Michael Lewis.  

Hey, I just remembered I was supposed to measure the bridge height!  Back to the shop...

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

----------


## ColdBeerGoCubs

Breathtaking, if not awe inspiring.

----------


## Rob Fowler

Wow!! This is really an amazing project and it's so nice to witness it taking shape here!! :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:

----------


## MandoNicity

Will, thanks for your fascinating account on FPing.  I've heard the term used for many years and never quite understood how it was actually done so this was highly informative.  Great work!  The mandolin is looking awsome!

JR

----------


## buddyellis

Old gal is looking better than she ever did brand new.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

This is so cool.

----------


## Tavy

> Old gal is looking better than she ever did brand new.


Indeed she is, anyone know how I stop a pronounsed tendency to drool every time I read this thread?  :Grin: 

John.

----------


## danb

This has been a fantastic project to keep an eye on. Very fine work by all involved!

----------


## MANDOLINMYSTER

We often here that refinishing an instrument will decrease its value, not the case here!
Of course the Luthiers involved with this project are the best of the best and what a pedigree this instument will carry with it.

----------


## F-2 Dave

> Indeed she is, anyone know how I stop a pronounsed tendency to drool every time I read this thread? 
> 
> John.


Wish I did. Everything about it is great. The wood, finish, sunburst, binding, even the rosette. It's just about the prettiest dang thing I've ever seen.

----------


## Richard Morrison

I've been following this the whole time ,but i just went through the whole thread from the start and it really is something special. I'm sure i can speak for most of the novice players like myself who rarely post but are always lurking around the site when i say how much we appreciate the hard work and wealth of knowledge that's openly exchanged here every day. I've been a member of many forums on an array of subjects over the years...MC is by far the best community I've ever been a part of. Thanks again.

----------


## Skip Kelley

> Old gal is looking better than she ever did brand new.


Yeah, it looks better now than when it left Kalamazoo!

----------


## Rob Gerety

Can't wait to see and hear it all strung up.

----------


## Michael Lewis

Today I received the project mandolin from Will Kimble and it is a pretty thing.  Nice job, everyone.

I will install small stainless frets in the new fingerboard and make a nut for it while i wait for a bridge and machines to arrive.

One of these days before too long it is going to sing, and i expect it will sound pretty good.  I just refretted a Gibson A1 with the same frets and find them to be bright and quite playable.  They are taller ( .050" crown height) than most tiny frets I have come across in the past. :Coffee:  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Eric Hanson

Glad to hear it is in the hands of another master. We all look forward to the continued updates and the posting of a video for all to see. 
 Thank you for all the work so far and the sharing of the project with the rest of us.

----------


## Andrew B. Carlson

Once it's done, we'll definitely need some videos of it being played. If Mr. Sam Bush is lurking on here, he should find a way to play a set on it for us and get video of it.

----------


## Michael Lewis

Frets in today (Saturday).  Nut will be made soon, and waiting for machines.  Steve at Cumberland Acoustic is sending a bridge to fit.

----------


## Goodin

Any progress to report?  Any word from Stew-Mac on the tuners?

----------


## Michael Lewis

Waiting for parts at this time.  So for now it is just hanging in my shop, collecting dust, aging.

----------


## JEStanek

Geez, that sounds depressing!  Perhaps it's absorbing some Lewis mojo?  :Smile: 

Jamie

----------


## Willie Poole

I have been following this thread from the start and it seems to me that some of the builders on this site would have some suitable tuners laying around to be used...Anyway its such a good project I`m sure we all want it to be perfect, I just hope I get a chance to play a tune on it somewhere, somehow....Willie

----------


## Michael Lewis

Don McRostie of Stewart MacDonald is waiting for a shipment of new "vintage" machines and will be sending some when they arrive, so we are waiting along with a bunch of other folks for those "old string post spacing" machines.

The new frets are installed and dressed, the new bone nut is shaped and fitted, just waiting for the bridge and some machines.

The mandolin is hanging along with a 1954 D'Angelico Excel that will be getting new binding and a neck straightening.  So, it IS soaking up some mojo.

----------


## sunburst

While we're waiting for parts, I'll try linking this video.
Just to prove I'm not afraid to do stuff that I don't know how to do, I got the video files yesterday and started editing them in iMovie, something I've only tried a couple of times. I managed to get almost the whole staining process down to about 9 minutes, so on to the next thing I don't know how to do; upload to You Tube. I think that worked, so now for the final thing I don't know how to do; link to the video here. So, if all goes right here is the video of the 'burst.

(You Tube says it might look better when they're through processing it.)

----------

Boharm, 

jandrews

----------


## JEStanek

Wow.  What a great video to follow and watch the color develop.  Makes me miss doing black and white printing in a darkroom (the closest skill I have to what you just showed us) and watching a well done print come out.  Thanks for posting that, John.

Jamie

----------


## Avi Ziv

John - this is awesome! Thanks so much for your generosity

----------


## Bill Auld

Just amazing, John!

----------


## ColdBeerGoCubs

Wow, now that's inspiring.

----------


## Mike Black

That's a great video John.  I don't think it was asked or mentioned earlier.  Are you using a alcohol or water base for the stain?   From the Denatured Alcohol can on the side, I'm guessing Alcohol.   :Smile:

----------


## woodwizard

John you got the touch man! That was very cool to watch. Thanks

----------


## Gary Alter

Very cool John...

----------


## sunburst

> Are you using a alcohol or water base for the stain?   From the Denatured Alcohol can on the side, I'm guessing Alcohol.


Good guess, but you might be disqualified because you looked at the answer!
Yes those are alcohol soluble "Colortone" (Transtint) dyes mixed with denatured.

----------


## Mike Black

> Good guess, but you might be disqualified because you looked at the answer!
> Yes those are alcohol soluble "Colortone" (Transtint) dyes mixed with denatured.


I've always had that problem.   :Smile:   Thanks for the clarification!

----------


## Mike Black

One more thing John...At the end around 7:37, can you explain what are you doing?  Are you wiping with alcohol to blend?

----------


## sunburst

Explain what I was doing... I was afraid of that...
To tell you the truth, I don't remember. I wondered what I was doing too, when I saw that. That's the alcohol rag, so I suspect that either I was trying to remove a little surface color from the center, or more likely I had left the center too wet and I was keeping the dies moving with the wrung-out alcohol rag until things dried a little, to avoid those little convection cell-looking places that can show up when the dye is left to dry from a too-wet condition.

----------


## Michael Lewis

You make it look so easy, now everybody is going to try that. :Laughing:  :Crying:  :Disbelief: 

You did a great job John.

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> Explain what I was doing...


Since it looks so easy (and with very fine results), how timeconsuming was the process of applying the finish? (I really enjoyed the video)

----------


## sunburst

Olaf, if you look to the lower left of the video screen it says right there; it took 8 minutes and 56 seconds!

Actually, I couldn't have answered that question without just taking a wild guess, but I looked at the raw video clips files, and sure enough the time they were created is displayed. Looks like I started masking the rosette at 2:11 PM and I was scraping the rosette after the stain at 3:45 PM.
The actual stain started going on at 2:42 PM, so the staining itself took about an hour. I was "sneaking up on" the color, so it took longer than my normal sunburst. I was trying to match the look of an old Gibson with this one whereas on my own new work I don't usually have to strive for any particular color or shade so I can work faster and quit when I decide I'm done. Darker or lighter, redder or browner, it doesn't matter when you're not trying to match anything, but when you are, you're not done until you have a good match, and if you get it too dark; too bad, so you have to slowly approach the color and shade, and stop only after you've gotten there.

----------


## Mark Marino

Boy, this is great, and timely (at least for me).  I'm in the midst of building my first Siminoff kit, and been pondering how to make a good burts.  Thanks you very much!

----------


## tree

John, I for one am glad you forged ahead with the stuff you don't know how to do, 'cause it's really cool to be able to see what you DO know how to do!  This would've been a cool video for any mandolin, but for this one in particular it's just off the chart awesome.  

Thanks for all that you and the other builders take the time to share on this forum.  I feel like I learn something every time I visit.

----------


## j. condino

Nice video John!

j.
www.condino.com

----------


## Diamondback_Jack

Great vid John! Thanks for posting! I'm gonna have to try that on one of my CBGs

----------


## Skip Kelley

John, thanks so much for the great video!

----------


## Mike Romkey

Wow!

----------


## swinginmandolins

John thanks for the video.You make finishing an instrument look like art to me!

----------


## Daniel Nestlerode

This gets my vote for best thread ever.   :Smile: 
Thanks for video recording and editing the video along with doing such a great 'burst on the instrument!

Daniel

----------


## MandoNicity

John, thanks for sharing that video!  Fascinating!

JR

----------


## Denny Gies

Very, very neat and impressive work.  The video was fun.  Thanks

----------


## Agustin

Thank you very much John the video is great, thanks again for sharing

----------


## ISU Trout Bum

Thanks so much for posting that vid, John. You make it look SO painless and easy. It was very helpful to watch you do the burst. Thanks again!!

----------


## stringduster

As for the binding, I'm guessing you're not too concerned but will scrape away the stain at some point in the finishing process?

----------


## sunburst

Yes, the ivoroid bindings were scraped clean after the stain and before sending the mandolin to Will for varnish. The rosette, with it's wood purflings, would not have scraped clean and that's why I masked it with striping tape and sealed the tape with clear lacquer before the staining process. The last image in the video shows the instrument sealed with shellac, the bindings scraped and ready to send to Will.

----------


## NRMiller1958

Did you seal the top before staining?

----------


## sunburst

No sealer before staining.

----------


## amowry

Great video, John! Your experience really shines.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

Fascinating 10 minutes!  Thanks for taking the time to make that video.  Long have I wondered just how those beautiful sunbursts were created.  Thanks to you now I know.  The entire process is *at least* an order of magnitude more difficult and involved that I had imagined it to be.  Brilliant.

----------


## tjackson@furth.com

So how come ZoukFest can do an online raffle?

----------


## JEStanek

They may be based in a state that allows it.  Your local ordinances and regulations may vary.

Jamie

----------


## mando.player

I think Jamie is on the right track, Zoukfest is in New Mexico.  More importantly, ZoukFest is a 501(c)3 non-profit arts and education organization.

----------


## markd

Any update on this very cool project ?

----------


## Phil Goodson

Still waiting for parts?

----------


## Michael Lewis

"Still waiting for parts?"  Yes, just received an e-mail from Don McRostie with a tentative due date for the machines.  It doesn't look like we will have them for the CBA Grass Valley Bluegrass Festival (June 17 - 20) but may have them shortly thereafter, maybe.

----------


## wildpikr

This has been an interesting thread to follow; any updates available? :Coffee:

----------


## mando.player

:Popcorn:

----------


## MandoNicity

:Popcorn:

----------


## Michael Lewis

Yeah guys, me too.  Some things just take time.  I will contact Don again to see where that boat is.  Maybe we can get it together by Strawberry Music Festival the end of August.  The mandolin will be done the day I get the machines.

----------


## Michael Lewis

Some encouraging news from Don, we might have the machines by mid August!  If that is the case I will take the restoration project mandolin to the Strawberry Music Festival over Labor Day weekend.  It will be on display in my workshop/booth on the Music Meadow.

----------


## djweiss

Great news, Michael...Especially for me, as I'm going to Strawberry for the first time this year!  I hope I get a chance to play it...

----------


## Willie Poole

Where is that Strawberry fest being held and what are the dates....If my band is not busy that weekend I would like to come and see and play that axe.....Willie

----------


## AlanN

Better get your plane ticket now, Willie. It's in California.

----------


## djweiss

Yosemite, to be specific.

----------


## Michael Lewis

google Strawberry Music Festival

----------


## Mike Black

Stew-Mac finally has the new Mandolin tuners on their website. 

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/M..._Mandolin.html

In stock within 1-3 days or 5-7 days!!!!

----------


## sunburst

Cool!
I notice it says; "...long-awaited replacements for the A-style tuners used by Gibson and other makers from the 1910s until 1925...".
They sure got the 'long-awaited' part right!

----------


## Michael Lewis

They will be worth waiting for, I'm sure.  Can't wait to get this thing up and ready.

----------


## MandoNicity

I think collectively all of us can't wait to see the final outcome of this amazing collaborative effort.  It's been a fun ride for all us back seat viewers.  Here's to a great final outcome!  Cheers!

JR

----------


## Willie Poole

California?  I`ll just wait until I can hear some clips on this here Cafe...Maybe someone will take it on a tour and bring it this way....Willie

----------


## Michael Lewis

Good news folks!  The machines arrived this afternoon!  Don McRostie sent some nice machines, "vintage" nickel with ivoroid buttons.  I gotta say, they look old.

I will get them installed tomorrow and see where I go from there.  Should be fun. :Smile: 

In 3 weeks I will be at the Strawberry Music Festival, and if I still have the mandolin I will show it there.  It should be a good exposure to folks from all over.  Maybe someone should show it at IBMA in October.

----------


## MandoNicity

It's alive!!!

 :Wink: 


JR

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

Update the thread with a picture of the mandolin with its new vintage style tuners please.

----------


## yellowbarber

> Update the thread with a picture of the mandolin with its new vintage style tuners please.


ditto, curious about the quality of those tuners too!

----------


## Michael Lewis

I will try to get some pics tomorrow, it is a busy schedule for me this week.

Re the new vintage Stew/Mac machines, I like them.  They work easily.  Don chose to send the "distressed" nickel w/ivoroid buttons version so that is what we have on the Resto Mando.  They look old.  Pics coming sometime.

----------


## yellowbarber

> I will try to get some pics tomorrow, it is a busy schedule for me this week.
> 
> Re the new vintage Stew/Mac machines, I like them.  They work easily.  Don chose to send the "distressed" nickel w/ivoroid buttons version so that is what we have on the Resto Mando.  They look old.  Pics coming sometime.


That's good news, need tuners for an late teens A4. I hope I get to "taste" the restoration some day, it looks great!

----------


## Daniel Nestlerode

I'll be at Strawberry and will DEFINITELY some see (all) your work.  And I will definitely take pictures.  So if Michael has not been able to get them uploaded by September 6, look for them then.  (Strawberry is Labor Day weekend and Camp Mather, where the festival is held, lacks cell phone reception.)

Daniel

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Michael.  Keep it a while and show it around.  I have a guard ready for it and will do a label when you are done.

----------


## otterly2k

just caught up with this thread after a long hiatus...
what an astounding project-- so exciting to watch and learn from - great videos and photos
thanks to all who are making it possible!

----------


## mike twombley

Oh my!  We got to occupy the same cosmic space for a while this weekend!!!  I got a bunch of pix,  I just post them in dribs and drabs throughout the day.

My thoughts.

It's just a lovely instrument.  Sounds and plays beautifully.  I must say the STELLAR CREW HAS REALLY DELIVERED!!!! I really enjoyed the opportunity to spend some time with it.  It's as nice an A model as I have ever played.

Lots of "ooohs and aaahs" from the visitors to Michael and Sparky's luthier tent at Strawberry Music Festival. Talked a very nice lady, just starting the mandolin, and she just fell in love with it. She said it was amazing how easy to  it was to play compared to her Rover. She said it really changes her perspective and motivation.

I think the restoration challenge is successful if it inspires just one player... mission accomplished!!

Thanks to all who did such a wonderful job.

mike

----------


## mike twombley

some more!

----------


## mike twombley

some more

----------


## tree

Oh my.  This must be what a new one looked like back then, only it's better . . .

----------


## djweiss

I played it this weekend, too.  Sounds and plays great!  I think the top-notch set-up really helps these old instruments shine.  Kudos to all involved.

----------


## Will Kimble

Hooray!  Looks great!  

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

----------


## Jill McAuley

Drop dead gorgeous! Well done to all who were involved!

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## F-2 Dave

Anyone who thinks that F's are more beautiful than A's hasn't seen this one. It's beautiful. Thanks to all who contributed.

----------


## Steve Sorensen

What a stunning gem!  Perfection perfected.
Steve

----------


## John Soper

If it sounds anywhere near as good as it looks... WOW!

----------


## Daniel Nestlerode

Dang!
I wanted so badly to go to Strawberry last weekend but was laid low by a bout with pneumonia, a condition from which I am still recovering.  It would have been a highlight of the festival for me to get to hear and play that instrument.

Daniel

----------


## Hal Loflin

Man!!! What a great looking mandolin. Could someone do a video playing it so that we could hear it?

----------


## Ben Milne

Congratulations to all involved.  She's a stunner.

----------


## Bill Snyder

Over in the "Post a Picture" section builders and players post photos on a regular basis of some very stunning instruments. Judging by the photos this one is right up there with the best. This is no small feat considering the starting point but then the list of luthiers involved is pretty impressive as well.

----------


## Jim Rowland

I can not stop looking at that thing. Just goes to show you what you can do with an old instrument and a handful of the best luthiers in the world.
Jim

----------


## Michael Lewis

The mandolin will be sent to Darryl Wolfe to have a pickguard installed, and from there it will go to Scott to be 'disposed of' as he sees fit.

It has been a fun project most of the time and the mandolin is a little jewel that someone should enjoy for a long time.  It has a new lease on it's life, is quite solid, plays well, sounds good, and is very nice to look at.

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

Sweet!

And I´d like to see a video of someone playing it too (or a soundclip).

----------


## PaulO

I've followed this project from the beginning.  It has amazed me how energetically all of the participants have taken on their contribution to the challenge.

A new/old A4.  Very much one of a kind.  It was pure genius for Darryl to get this off of the ground.  What a joy to know how many talented and caring hands have transformed that old girl into such a beauty.  Truly a one of a kind.  Every one of you talented and generous luthiers should be very proud.  One day I hope I get to hear the results.

----------


## mrmando

'Twould be fun to have it on display at CMSA next month...

----------


## JEStanek

Excellent work to all involved with this restoration.  The mandolin looks fantastic.

Jamie

----------


## Steve-o

Oh my, I just now saw the finished project and am blown away.  Kudos to all the luthiers who contributed.  What a great project and a great thread.

----------


## Denny Gies

There are no words to describe what a neat drill this has been.  Thanks to all who worked to make such a beautiful instrument come back to life.

----------


## F-2 Dave

That was fun. Now what are we gonna do?

----------


## woodwizard

> Oh my.  This must be what a new one looked like back then, only it's better . . .


That's just what I was thinking. Now I know what my A4 might have looked like back in 1919 only mine has a pickguard. Will this one have a pickguard ?

----------


## Gail Hester

Yes, the pickguard is next.




> The mandolin will be sent to Darryl Wolfe to have a pickguard installed, and from there it will go to Scott to be 'disposed of' as he sees fit.





> That was fun. Now what are we gonna do?


Anyone have a beat up old mandocello :Laughing:

----------


## Michael Lewis

The restoration project mandolin was shipped off to Darryl Wolfe today, so he can deal with the pick guard and get it to Scott.  It would be nice to show it at the big IBMA event in Nashville, and also like Martin Stillion suggested, at the CMSA event shortly thereafter.  

The mandolin has a very nice clear voice with good volume, it is not tubby or choked but focused.  At present it seems a bit tight with more potential to develop it's tone.  Somebody is going to love this instrument.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I received the mandolin and it looks great.  This project is nearing completion.  The first post on this subject was made on August 26, 2009, roughly 13 months ago.  I will have some photos with pickguard soon.

----------


## Willie Poole

Michael Lewis....Maybe sending it to Big Joe to put the "Toneright" on it would open it up a bit.....Everything else has been done to it so why not that?.....Willie

----------


## bgjunkie

Yes, send it to Big Joe and let me know when it gets there so I can stop by and see it.  I can swing by on my lunch hour.  I would love a chance to see, hear and possibly play this wonderful looking instrument.

----------


## jackc

> Anyone have a beat up old mandocello


Yeah, I've got one...and an H-2 mandola in need of restoration too. Wouldn't it be nice to have a matching trio of restored Gibsons? And then get some really good players, like Sunburst, to do a recording.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

:Laughing:

----------


## wildpikr

Is that nice looking collage an indicator for something?   :Whistling:  a raffle maybe?  :Grin:   Just curious...

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

:Wink:

----------

MikeEdgerton

----------


## HoGo

Darryl, shouldn't that be Will and Fred Kimble?

----------


## Mike Black

Also, if your going to fix that better make it Mandolin Cafe, not Mandolin Café  

As per Scott's blog:  10-Things-You-Probably-Don-t-Know-About-The-Mandolin-Cafe

----------


## Michael Lewis

Very nice touch Darryl.  Will it be at IBMA?

----------


## mrmando

> Anyone have a beat up old mandocello


 More beat up than your K4?

----------


## danb

From Darryl:

----------

Gene Summers

----------


## Skip Kelley

Beautiful work to all!

----------


## Jill McAuley

That looks so awesome with the pickguard in place - drool inducing!

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## Scott Tichenor

Wanted to let everyone know I've taken possession of the mandolin. It's drop dead gorgeous with a wonderful vintage voice. On leaving the IBMA convention floor just now I ran into George Gruhn and Sam Gifford from Pegasus. George asked what was in the case so I showed him and told him about the project, and then listened while he played it for the next 15 minutes. Was beginning to think he wasn't going to give it back!

Tomorrow we'll head back home and I have plans to take it to a friend that has a photo studio. We'll take some good pictures to share and then I'd like at some point to do a more formal public thank you. For now I'm running on fumes a bit from IBMA and would prefer to do so when awake. Very touched by the generosity and look forward to seeing what happens to it in its new life.

----------


## MandoNicity

This has been a fantastic and educational project that has been a delight to follow.  It is truly amazing looking. All the luthiers involved seem to have given her extra special attention and a big round of thanks go out to them for their time and expertise!   Now someone donate a beat up mandocello so we can start following along on that one!    :Wink: 

JR

----------


## Lou Giordano

It is beautiful. I would love to hear it.

----------


## John Soper

What a wonderful collaborative celebration of mandolin luthier's art (and craft)!  Scott, post those pictures in a hurry.  And, you know that this type of project would never have happened without this website- so kudos to Scott, yet again.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

> Darryl, shouldn't that be Will and Fred Kimble?


I hate when I do that

----------


## MikeEdgerton

I always wondered what one of those looked like brand new  :Cool:

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

Don´t forget to take a video, when you´re at your friends photo studio, Scott!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

A picture of the presentation to MandoCafe at IBMA on Saturday
Darryl Wolfe, Scott Tichenor, Austin Clark and Don MacRostie

----------


## James Sanford

Any new info regarding "the mandolin"?

----------


## Scott Tichenor

The mandolin is back home after its visit to the photographer. I'll leave one full length shot below and hope to add more later this week as time permits. It's difficult to capture in an image how rich and beautiful the finish and sunburst is. I attempted a very modest amount of color correction to try to bring out a little more of that richness and although the end result looks good, I'm not sure it captures just how beautiful this mandolin is in person. And it plays like a dream and sounds, not surprisingly, just like you'd expect from the very best vintage Gibson mandolins from this period.

Although this one needed a lot of intense TLC to arrive back in playing condition (were it human, we would say it had received a heart transplant), the end result is undeniable--it's a real gem in every way.

My profound thanks to Darryl Wolfe for dreaming up this project and to all of the very talented hands that touched it on its journey back to playability. You have my eternal gratitude.

In the original post, Darryl opted to let mandolincafe.com keep the funds from the sale of the instrument. However, I strongly believe in passing on one's good fortune, and while I do intend to sell the mandolin at some point after playing it for awhile, 100% of the funds from its sale will go to support various mandolin related activities and events instead of my own financial gain. I've been in the process of developing a list of ideas and will communicate them as they become reality.

I've also decided there would be one more contribution. I had ordered a Small Dog case cover embroidered with the Mandolin Cafe logo several months ago for an instrument, which, alas, succumbed to catch and release. It perfectly fits the case Darryl generously provided so it becomes a part of the final project along with a copy of a Case Notes Musical Instrument Diary.

So, again, with my thanks, I'm declaring the project happily and successfully completed and the instrument once again making music.

----------

Gene Summers

----------


## Mike Bromley

Pretty darn pretty.  There's a lot of love mojo in there.  Any chance of a brief summary of its journey?

----------


## Fretbear

If there is anyone on this earth who more deserves to own, play and treasure that unique instrument than Mr. T., I don't know who it would be.

----------


## Cheryl Watson

This project is too cool for words; the mandolin too beautiful for words.

----------


## man dough nollij

It would be really cool if each of the luthiers who participated would write a little summary of what they did, describing any unusual writing they saw inside, etc. Then when all of them have chimed it, it would be great if they could sign it, to capture for posterity the wonderful collaboration for the mandolin's new owner(s).

----------


## Perry Babasin

I think I'm in love!!!! Again!!!

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> It would be really cool if each of the luthiers who participated would write a little summary of what they did, describing any unusual writing they saw inside, etc. Then when all of them have chimed it, it would be great if they could sign it, to capture for posterity the wonderful collaboration for the mandolin's new owner(s).


This thread details that and the journey it was on, you just have to go back through the messages. Most of the folks that worked on it included pictures of what they were doing.

----------


## Scott Tichenor



----------

Gene Summers

----------


## fredrob

I have a beat up A-4 that needs restoration,

----------


## John Soper

This thread deserves a permanent place at the top of this section, similar to the Loar picture of the day thread in Vintage Instruments.  I've gone thru all pages on several occasions just to relive the transformation...

----------


## Tom Wright

> This thread deserves a permanent place at the top of this section, similar to the Loar picture of the day thread in Vintage Instruments.  I've gone thru all pages on several occasions just to relive the transformation...


Add my vote to that.

----------


## dt in ky

i think this is one the most beautiful antique restorations i have ever seen. i guess the next question is where does it go ? perhapse a diserving child prodigy that might not ever have a chance to play such an instrement. just sayin

----------


## dt in ky

where's spell check anyway

----------


## Bill Van Liere

Super job by all.

Man O Man, John Hamlett sure did earn the right to his cafe handle on this one.

----------


## F-2 Dave

It'd be cool to have a CD featuring various artists playing a selection of tunes on this mandolin. Just sayin'.

----------


## BradKlein

One portion of this long thread, that I found particularly interesting was the seldom discussed, uniquely complex neck construction on the instruments of this era.  This is a three ply, mahogany-ebony-mahogany, neck with a maple insert that makes up maybe half the overall volume of the neck.  (the full discussion on pages 4-7 of the thread)  It's a major feature of the most popular era of the American mandolin, and yet, to the best of my knowledge, not one that any modern luthier tries to replicate. One of the many interesting tidbits brought out during this terrific project.

PS  I also admire the good will, and generosity of the many who posted as well as the luthiers involved.

----------


## DerTiefster

F-2 Dave said, " ...a CD featuring various artists..."

What -I- would find more compelling would be a set of music done by the luthiers who put this instrument aright.  I'm not in a position to ask for their further participation in such a venture, nor even to suggest what might be done with the proceeds of sales of digital copies, but I'd certainly be one of the purchasers of even an amateur-recording-quality version.  This also doesn't even address the transportation costs of the mandolin itself, much less the huge amount of time involved in it as a secondary project.

----------


## sunburst

> ...This is a three ply, mahogany-ebony-mahogany


To tell you the truth, I'm pretty sure this one's neck is cherry with an "ebonized" (dyed black... actually sort of greenish black) strip of some sort of mystery wood in the center. Some say the wood Gibson died black was maple, some say pear, some say other.

----------


## Jill McAuley

Jaw-droppingly beautiful (not even sure if that's a real word or not but oh well!)

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## Dave Greenspoon

> This is a three ply, mahogany-ebony-mahogany...It's a major feature of the most popular era of the American mandolin, and yet, to the best of my knowledge, not one that any modern luthier tries to replicate. One of the many interesting tidbits brought out during this terrific project.
> 
> PS  I also admire the good will, and generosity of the many who posted as well as the luthiers involved.


You might want to look at some of the "Loar style" necks on some of the Rigels, and I think I've seen at least one or two Olin Davis's Rattlesnakes with the three-ply neck.

----------


## F-2 Dave

> Jaw-droppingly beautiful (not even sure if that's a real word or not but oh well!)
> 
> Cheers,
> Jill


Beautiful is absolutely a real word.

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

That's not my favourite _'style'_ of Mandolin,but i have to say that i feel very covetous of that particular one.It has a beautiful elegance to it. Wonderful workmanship by all involved & i hope that Scott has the photos on here soon. That Mandolin is so unique that it's hard to think re.where it should end up. To be owned by one person after so many have put so much work into it,somehow doesn't seem 
fair - unless it was me of course !, :Grin: 
                                              Ivan :Mandosmiley:

----------


## mandolirius

> It'd be cool to have a CD featuring various artists playing a selection of tunes on this mandolin. Just sayin'.


You know, this has all the makings of a great Fretboard Journal photo-essay.

----------


## bluesmandolinman

one of the best threads ever, thanks for the fun !

----------


## Skip Kelley

That mandolin is simply beautiful!

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

I feel like I may want that instrument...

Would you please consider to put up a video/soundclip. There must be some mandolinists in Kansas, right?

----------


## Scott Tichenor

Seem large version of this image.

----------

Gene Summers

----------


## Scott Tichenor

See large version of this image.

----------

Gene Summers

----------


## BradKlein

> To tell you the truth, I'm pretty sure this one's neck is cherry with an "ebonized" (dyed black... actually sort of greenish black) strip of some sort of mystery wood in the center. Some say the wood Gibson died black was maple, some say pear, some say other.


Thanks for the clarification, John. I suspected that I didn't know exactly what I was talking about, not having seen the instrument in person.  And in fact, reading back through the thread, I'm not 100% sure we have unanimity of opinion on all the materials in this instrument.  Or do we?

Top: Adirondack Spruce
Back: Cherry?
Sides: ? could that be mahogany? birch?
Neck: laminated, Cherry-Dyed Something-Cherry, with a large maple insert, triangular in cross section. 
Headstock veneer: Is there one?
New ebony board, bridge, end pin.

----------


## sgarrity

What a beautiful mandolin.  Congratulations on a job very well done to all who participated!

----------


## Scott Tichenor

See large version of this image.

----------

Gene Summers

----------


## Mike Black

What's the deal with the end pin?  Scott, Do I need to come over with an end pin reamer and set that?

----------


## Scott Tichenor

See large version of this image.

----------

Gene Summers

----------


## sunburst

..

----------


## sunburst

> Top: Adirondack Spruce
> Back: Cherry?
> Sides: ? could that be mahogany? birch?
> Neck: laminated, Cherry-Dyed Something-Cherry, with a large maple insert, triangular in cross section. 
> Headstock veneer: Is there one?
> New ebony board, bridge, end pin.


Top: Not sure, really. I suspect sitka because of the width and evenness of grain and the width of the piece itself.
Back: birch
Sides: birch
Neck: cherry/dyed something/cherry
Headstock veneer: dyed something
Board, bridge, pin: ebony

----------


## mculliton123

If one picture is worth 1000 words, one MP3 would be worth 1000 pictures! let's quite lookin under the hood and take it for a spin.  Please???

----------


## walt33

Every time I look at this instrument, my heart races. I'm saving my pennies . . .

----------


## Michael Lewis

Scott, you are a very good musician, would you make a short recording with the mandolin playing something pretty, and post it here?

----------


## mandolirius

> Scott, you are a very good musician, would you make a short recording with the mandolin playing something pretty, and post it here?


Seconded!

----------


## mandopete

I'd like to request "Yakety Sax" by Boots Randolph!

 :Disbelief:

----------


## woodwizard

This is my favorite thread of all!

----------


## Mark Walker

I noticed this thread at its inception, and it sort of got buried a page or two deep over the past 14+ months.  I caught the headline on the Cafe home page today and gobbled up all 22 pages of the thread.

Just a stunning effort by all involved, and certainly among one of the coolest musical instrument restoration projects in history.  (I confess, I'd have to consider Charlie Derrington's restoration of Monroe's smashed Loar at the top of _my_ list.)  Regardless, this has to be the among the coolest threads to span a year as has been on Mandolin Cafe!

Congrats to everyone who touched this mandolin, and all of you who enlightened knuckleheads like me with interesting posts on history, technique, and every other aspect of it!    :Smile:

----------


## Paul Statman

Abbalutely gorgeous! What a job well done. Congratulations to all of you.

----------


## John Duncan

I would love to hear this mandolin as well.

----------


## jasona

Lovely work all. And a very inspiring story!

----------


## Scott Tichenor

Here's a very quick, very dirty MP3 of the mandolin. Not the best playing but that's what I get at 9:00 a.m. with no warm-up in a cold studio. I don't normally play short scale mandolins so am struggling a bit and the click-pick always throws me off. Also not used to that style of pickguard. And of course what do you choose to record when you go in? Why, you pick a fiddle tune you haven't played in about 15 years or play once a year. Let's see, that'd be enough excuses I think. Either way, it gives you an idea of the sound. This one has tone in spades and the low end is just as sweet as can be. It's strung with J74s and I'm using a Blue Chip TPR60 pick. Watch for this to be for sale (the mandolin, not the MP3) on the Classifieds on Monday. Believe the name of this piece is _Shelbourne Reel_ but likely has other names.

----------


## Willie Poole

Scott, A fine job, that is one of the best sounding oval hole mandolins that I have ever heard....I always liked the sound of the one that Red Rector played and this one tops that, IMO that is.....All of the builders that took part in this project should feel real proud and also be given some recognition in some way so that in years down the road all of the people that come in contact with the instrument will know who did this lovely restoration.....a long road from start to completion but the final product was worth the wait....GREAT JOB  EVERYONE....Willie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Please note that the certificate of provenance that Scott has is a draft.  I will be sending him (or the new owner) the final along with a CD of all photos taken

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I also found these two unposted "before" pictures

----------


## Mike Black

I got to see and play the instrument yesterday.  Everyone really did a super job and it even looks better than the pictures.   It plays very well and someone is really going to get cool piece of Mandolin Cafe history as well as a nice instrument to play.  Congrats again to all involved.

----------


## Elliot Luber

Very cool project. Congratulations to everyone who participated.

----------


## JFDilmando

As a matter of note, to keep this post alive, and perhaps to provide a touchstone moment in the life of this mandolin...
I am the thrilled new owner of this remarkable storybook mandolin.  I have been facinated and engrossed with this thread, and spellbound as this mandolin made it's way from master to master.  The dedication to luthiery, and love that has been devoted to bringing this poor orphan back to life has been remarkable.  The process touched me, and as a person that feels that we are but temporary, and fortunate caretakers in any instruments life, I was entranced by the story, and the result.

I have been blessed to have worked hard, and saved to be able to have many (by some count) wonderful instruments in my life.  Some have been passed on to others, and all but one have been passed on in better condition than when I acquired them(given the normal playing wear that does happen).  I commonly try and attend to ALL issues challenging the life of any instrument... No instrument that has an issue when acquired leaves my hands without that FIXED.  I feel it is a duty of all of us to make sure that any instrument you "own" leaves you in the best condition possible.  Play it, enjoy it, let others make music, but be a good moment in the life of the instrument... 
Scott was good enough to add even more charma to this instrument's new life, by turning the instrument over and selling it, in order to do more good for the mandolin community, and the youth who are learning our instrument, and creating more wonderful mandolin music for the world.  Scott obviously didn't need to do this.  It was freely donated to him and the cafe by the wonderful artisans that created it.  Even though the intent was that it could be sold somehow, it was up to Scott to determine the means.  He has desided to use the proceeds to further noble mandolin causes...  How perfect is that.

In portions of this thread, there was speculation on the value that might be realized by this project.  I am very pleased that my winning bid, equalled the greatest of these speculations, $5000.  This is one of those instruments that is unique, special, created in an amazing sequece, and documented here in the Cafe.  Here is a case, where I was actually happy to NOT have thought of it as a "bargain".  I have talked with Scott, and we are committed to include with this mandolin digital documentation of this remarkable process, that will remain with this mandolin throughout it's future life.  This will be a disc, or a flash drive of all the dedication of the luthiers, as well as the participation of the Cafe members of the thread.

As far as the future of this mandolin.  I intend to hold it for as long as it and I can make wonderful music.  I will share it with all those I can.  I will be a good steward. I take this responsibility seriously.

I will also make a promise.  If I do part ways with this instrument at sometime in the future, I will only do so with full disclosure to those of this Cafe community.  As part of this disclosure, I will offer first refusal to any and all on this cafe.  Threrefore, I will never sell this wonderful instrument without allowing this community the right of purchase within this community.  In addition, if at any time I do pass this instrument on... any and ALL proceeds beyond my winning $5000 bid paid to Scott, will be transferred to Scott for further distribution.  I will NEVER make a profit on this instrument.  Hopefully, this will set in motion... a wonderful instrument, created in Gibson's past, resurrected by Darryl, given new life by the wonderful people who have worked their magic... which will, from this time on, benefit the mandolin community, not only with the music it creates, but by the possibillity of future profit being donated time and again into the future.

I hope this gives those who did not win this mandolin in this sale, some solice... as well as giving the creators some good thoughts about who is now the curator of their mandolin, and what it might be in the future.

All of our thanks should be showered on these folks.

John D

----------

fox

----------


## ColdBeerGoCubs

Very well said John and congrats.

And, uh,  oh yeah, I'm not that far from Naperville.

----------


## sunburst

Thanks for that post!
I'm glad to know the outcome of this project, and I'm glad to know that it has gone to someone who truly appreciates it and understands the stewardship aspect of owning any quality instrument.
Congratulations on your acquisition, and I hope you enjoy it very much!

----------


## JEStanek

Congratulations and enjoy that mandolin!

Jamie

----------


## Paul Statman

Big congrats, John! Enjoy (we know you will)!

----------


## Lynn Dudenbostel

It's good to see this instrument go to a good home.  Wishing you many years of enjoyment!

Lynn

----------


## Fretbear

Congratulations on the acquisition of a wonderful instrument, a great post, and coining a new word: "Charma"......

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## Michael Lewis

The whole process and outcome give me more hope for the world we live in.  We all (that means YOU too) help make it a better place.  Thanks everyone, and especially Scott and John Dillon.

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## Gail Hester

Congratulations and thank you John.   It certainly is heartwarming to see how much this mandolin will be appreciated and that the proceeds will go to deserving causes through Scott and the Café.

It was really fun being part of this project both as a participant in the restoration and as a spectator watching the transformation at each stage by the other luthiers so thanks to all of the luthiers and suppliers.  A big thanks again to Darryl who got this project started and had the vision to know that it would be successful, fun and interesting for everyone.

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## Skip Kelley

Congratulations John! I wish you many years of making great music with the mandolin!

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## Darryl Wolfe

Congrats John and to everyone involved.  The outcome of this leaves me feeling gratified

Darryl

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## Bill James

Thanks so much for that John. I think this mandolin was destined to go to you and for you to be the one to kick off it's second life. What a great ending to the first chapter in the story of this instrument's rebirth. May there be many more!

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## Austin Clark

Congratulations John!  I hope this mandolin brings you many tunes over the years. 

It has been a pleasure to participate and thanks to all the luthiers involved and all the folks whose interest has kept this going and made it such a great project. And thank you, John, for bringing it to such a fine close.

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## jasona

Great ending to a very interesting process.

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## Scott Tichenor

The Restoration Mandolin played a few last tunes at my house today then went inside its vintage case, which was then zipped up into a Colorado Case Cover with mandolincafe.com embroidery and a leather-bound Case Notes record filled out with details on the instrument went into the case cover pocket. Then the entire package went into a box ready to head to John's house for some new tunes. Tomorrow I'll work on creating a very large and long PDF document of this entire thread to go into an email to John, or if it's too large to communicate via the web I'll just buy a USB Flash Drive and put in on there and mail to him. John is committed to keeping a long-term record of this thread in some kind of electronic format. Imagine someone 100 years from now picking up this instrument and wanting to know the story...

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Mark Gunter

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## MandoNicity

Congrats John!  This was a highly educational and entertaining endeavour to follow and nice to see it's finale.  [now someone get that beat up mando-cello out of the closet and start er' over again!]   :Wink: 

JR

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## Scott Tichenor

An update on where some of the funds from this project have gone so far. This afternoon I'm headed to El Dorado, Kansas to play an evening concert at the Iron Horse Concert Hall with some friends and will be delivering a $500 check going towards the Kansas Bluegrass Association's kid band going by the name of The KBA Treblemakers. The band is badly in need of new instruments, funds to offset travel expenses to some key festivals and some decent stage outfits. I'd promised the group last year the Mandolin Cafe would provide some support so I'll be meeting up with Mark Johnson, their teacher/leader and a great banjo player and tenor singer who said he'd be at the concert. Unless he reads it here, it'll be a surprise to him.

I also made a donation to the Sophie McCreary Fund while at NAMM in January. Sophie is the daughter of Steve McCreary, the man who _really_ makes Collings Guitars and Mandolins operate like a world class facility. If you haven't heard the story of this very remarkable family and their support for their daughter, it's definitely worth a few minutes of your time.

It's easy to give the money away, really. The generosity is not mine, but that of the talented builders that got this project going and donated their time, expertise and materials. I just get to do the fun part of donating it back. More to come in the future.

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Mark Gunter

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## Denny Gies

This is the kind of stuff that makes us better human beings.  Thank you Scott.

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## Dale Ludewig

How wonderful.  Mark isn't half bad on the banjo....  :Smile:

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## Jonathan James

Thanks for the update, Scott. Great work.

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## Dobe

Fans of this thread will like to watch these restorations:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...atore-mandolin

 :Popcorn:

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## Scott Tichenor

I'm still dolling out some funds from this project and thought it was time for an update. Received this note from Craig Wilson who is on the California Bluegrass Association board. For the third year in a row the Mandolin Cafe is going to sponsor the Wednesday night concert and activities between their Bluegrass Camp and Father's Day Festival, and I think without the restoration project funds I probably would not have chosen to do so again.

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_Hi Scott,

Thanks for your generous gift of $500 to again help sponsor the Wednesday night concert at this year's Fathers' Day Festival (FDF) in Grass Valley, CA. The FDF is the California Bluegrass Association's flagship event (check out: http://fathersdayfestival.com ) and one of the most prestigious outdoor Bluegrass festivals on the west coast, if not the whole country. The Wednesday night concert culminates our highly regarded music camp (6/12-6/15) and usually features a combination of our camp instructors. This year teaching mandolin we have Mike Compton who is out with the John Hartford String Band (also on staff), John Reischman, and Caleb Clauder of Foghorn String Band, all on staff and available for the concert._ 

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In addition, on May 31 here in Lawrence, KS, Dan Miller and Tim May will be making a stop at Mass St. Music for a guitar and mandolin improv class. I've notified my contact with the Kansas Bluegrass Association that the Mandolin Cafe would be offering to pay for two spots in this class for their mandolin and guitar player in their kids bluegrass band The Treblemakers (very good band!).

Your/our community funds are hard at work and making things happen.

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Darryl Wolfe

Nice move

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## Chris Keth

That's awesome. I was looking at photos to compare the tuners with those on my 1921 A2 and I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference, if I even could.

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## Larry S Sherman

Hey John,

How if your Restoration mando doing? Any new pics or stories?

Best, Larry

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## JFDilmando

Well it is in wonderful company... I paired down my collection awhile back to amass some Loar funds... have since found a couple of wonderful instruments.... so, this wonderful Restoration "A4" sits with several beautiful buds, and shares the playing time.  In fact, the "A4" has a place of honor in my bedroom, where it is within an arms reach.  Soemthing comes into my head, and it's right there waiting to express a thought or two...

Wonderful voice, and plays beautifully.  I a thinking of getting out one of these days and finding some jams, but seems like it always turns out to be next week...  this instrument will be one of the players that I will take, I believe.  But that said, I have no hesitation about taking any and all of my instruments out in the real world... that is what they are for... to play and share.  I take an instrument on every business trip I take, over seas, locally, you name it... and folks just love to hear the instruments themselves AND about the instruments...  The back story of this particular mandolin is so special, so unique, it's hard to beat.   

I sprung for this one with a lot of $$, but it was so important that Scott get some good bucks for his wonderful causes, that it was a perfect ending... or as I hope maybe a beginning... as the instrument has been rebord so to speak, and I have made the pledge that when it leaves my hands, all the funds will go onto Scott again....  If I had another person step up, and offer $4000 for it, I would pass it onto him immediately, and then send the check onto Scott, first light.  I paid 5k for Scott... it would be great if someone else might consider doing the same... 

Until the time is right, it will continue to be played, and appreciated.  we will know when the time is right.

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Jeff Mando, 

Larry S Sherman, 

mandolinlee, 

Paul Statman

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## mandolinlee

Thank you Larry S Sherman and John Dillon for the update on this project mandolin. Always interesting to learn what is happening w/ the instrument and what Scott is doing w/ the proceeds.
Thanks, again to all.
Lee

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## Darryl Wolfe

Excellent, thanks for the update

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## JFDilmando

As this thread appeared again, I thought that I would give a bit of an update on where this mandolin has been and the sounds it has made.  During the last four years, where has it been.... UK, Stavanger Norway, Kuala Lumpur, Dubai, as well as Illinois, Texas, Wisconsin, Ohio, Alabama, and GA....

It has played jazz, and bluegrass, but lately has been spending it's time with piano duets of Vivaldi, Bach, as well as Canon in D, and various arrangements of more pop tunes...

It is holding up well, and shows no significant play wear... I have been taking care of it, for sure.  All those talented folks that worked on this little gem should be proud of their work, and happy that wonderful sounds can continue to come form the fruits of their labor.

Thanks to them.... and thanks to Scott for all he is doing for the mandoiln community.

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fox, 

houseworker, 

John Soper, 

Paul Statman, 

Scott Tichenor

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## fatt-dad

Have you ever tried Thomastik Heavy strings on your A4?  I went to them a few years back on my A3 and have been very happy for my style of play - Celtic, Classical, Old-Time.  I'm mostly on the CT55 or Wegan TF 140.  I just love having my paddle head and enjoy knowing that this cool mandolin has a place in your collection.  It was a fun story to watch back as it unfolded.  Hard to believe it was over 5 years ago!

f-d

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## JFDilmando

I have never tried a set on this mando, but just so happens that I have a set, and it is about time to change out.... so....  I will get back on the results.

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## JFDilmando

It would be interesting to hear what the folks that actually worked on this mandolin might say about what they think would be a great set to try on this A "4"
Any thoughts any of you who worked in it ?

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Paul Statman

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## Gail Hester

Hi again John.  Among some other things, I re-graduated the top to Loar era oval hole specs.  I recommend using D'addario J73s or equivalent in terms of tension.  That top is lively and won't need heavier strings to drive it.

Glad to hear you've been enjoying it so much.  Best.

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Paul Statman

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## Will Kimble

Was really fun to see this thread pop back up, I had to go back and re-read it to remember exactly what I did!  lol

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

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## JFDilmando

If you remember, the mandolin was "acquired" at a really elevated sum, relative to the general market.... This is of course a matter of discussion as this mandolin is indeed unique, being the creation of an elite band of brothers and sisters who had a part in its rebirth.  We as a mandolin community LOVED following its path from one to another of the luthiers who took part, with all the commentary and love that was devoted to the instrument.  

Then, of course, ALL the proceeds went to Scott and the Cafe, which from my perspective, was how I justified the amount I was willing to pony up for this remarkable instrument.  

It has been "many" years now since this event took place.  Dare I hope that another such undertaking might be possible?  Might another challenge on behalf of the Cafe be possible?  Easy for me to wonder, as I wouldn't dare think I could contribute any talent to such an undertaking,       But I would be right up there bidding the creation up in value for the Cafe at the end.

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Jim Nollman, 

Paul Statman

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## Northwest Steve

This project was awesome. The talent of all the luthiers is impressive and that mandolin is stunning. I really appreciate seeing such craftsmanship in todays world. Keep up the great work.

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## Mike Arakelian

Fantastic idea and project.  Good for the Cafe' and lots of fun.  I'll follow for sure. 😄

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## JFDilmando

It has been seven years since this wonderful project was initiated, well actually longer, as Darryl acquired the body and neck before he proposed the restoration challenge.  Since that time, I have had this wonderful mandolin in my home and have loved it from the day Scott sent ot onto me.  It has traveled the world, and has been admired by many.  The creation was driven by the desire to give back to the Cafe, and was taken up by many wonderful folks who generously gave of their time and talent to recreate this wonderufl instrument, documented in this thread.  All the proceeds realized by Scott have been wonderfully given back to the Mandolin community via various donations and distributions... as one could only think Scott would do...

I think that the time has come to try and generate some additional funds for Scott... and this mandolin, reborn to give back, can keep on, keeping on, doing just that.  I am thinking that what I can do, is offer this mandolin back up to the cafe community, with the intent of getting some funds back to Scott and his mando-causes.  "Charma" as I slipped in previously.  

If you have read this thread before, you would know that this mandolin garnered a princely sum of $5000 for the Cafe, back in 2010.  I intend to offer this mandolin in the classifieds for $1502, (don't ask) or best offer..... "best offer" will be anything OVER that, with the promise that 100% of anything over that will go to Scott and the Cafe.  

With this in place, can I ask all the generous luthiers to bump this thread by reminiscing a bit about their contributions, and recollections of their work, so that we can appreciate their efforts, so long ago now.  Few mandolin creations have gone through this kind of documentation, and have been appreciated so intimately by so many...

I encourage all of us to read this thread from the beginning.  Even if you are not one to consider this mandolin as a future part of your family, the story here is remarkable, and reads as well as a good novel, with a great ending, and now another beginning.

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fatt-dad, 

Mark Seale, 

OlDanTucker, 

Paul Statman, 

Tavy

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## sunburst

> ...can I ask all the generous luthiers to bump this thread by reminiscing a bit about their contributions, and recollections of their work, so that we can appreciate their efforts, so long ago now...


My first thought was "7 years!". It just doesn't seem like it could have been that long ago.
I think most, if not all of us are still around here from time to time. I don't really have any specific recollections to add, it's all pretty well documented, though I haven't read through the thread for some time. My first (and last) attempt at uploading a video to youtube was involved, and I'll never remember my password, so there it is, as is, until all the gigabytes fade into oblivion. I believe people still link to that video from time to time when someone on some forum is interested in how a sunburst is done.
It is a rather unique mandolin due to it's history, and hopefully someone will now acquire it, play it and enjoy it as it continues it's way through this part of it's path through history.

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Paul Statman

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## JFDilmando

I have loved having this mandolin for the "many" years now that I have played it.... gently, with great care.  It is as pristine today as it was when these great luthiers finished their wonderful work.  I bump this thread not as an advertisement, but to add to this record of its existence, and a record of another milestone.  It will be passed onto another lucky person, and hoefully the bulk of the proceeds will go to Scott and his worthy mandolin projects.

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## JFDilmando

Just an uodate to say that a new high offer is in at $2500, which means that Scott will be assured of at least $100 additional dollars from this project.

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## JFDilmando

Wanted to correct this last post.... There was a personal issue with the previous high bidder, and it was best to relieve him of his commitment.   So, currently, the bid on this great mando, custom case and all, is $2,000... So Scott, at present will see another $500 from this great mando with mojo....
Bidding will close in a weeks time

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Paul Statman, 

WoMando

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## JFDilmando

Two days are left regarding this sale/donation to Cafe. 
Currently Scott is set up to get $500 for his great work. And the Mando worked on by all these great luthiers will keep on giving.

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## JFDilmando

This mandolin is now in the hands of a new custodian/owner.  After a couple of false starts a transaction was completed and I can proudly say that this mandolin has now generated another $500, donated to Scott and the Cafe.  The new owner had this to say regarding the mandolin, and it's creators :

"I appreciate your generosity in buying it and supporting the Mandolin Cafe, and also your generosity in passing the mandolin along to me.  I am also glad the Mandolin Cafe is getting another donation as a consequence of it.    As a long-time lurker on Mandolin Cafe, I had followed the story of the mandolin with great interest.  It was inspiring to see the effort, personal care,  and enthusiasm of the talented folks who restored the mandolin.  I particularly enjoyed hearing modern experts discuss the work of the Gibson shop, then restore and reinterpret it in ways that enhanced but respected the original construction.   What a pleasure it is to have it in-hand and see the results of that work! 

I will be using it to play English Country dance music for our monthly dances, Contra dance music (mostly open bands),  Irish sessions, and Old Time.  It might get some use for Scottish and Scandinavian music, but I usually play fiddle for them.  I’m expecting that I will not be bringing it to a lot of jams and sessions, as they are risky places for instruments, but it will be getting out for performances and other playing. "

Thanks to all those contributing luthiers, and to Scott for all he has done for the mandolin world.  May this mandolin continue to contribute in the years ahead.

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fatt-dad, 

Paul Statman

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## Paul Statman

I really dig the new custodian's response. It's good to know that this wonderful piece is still in good hands. Thanks for sharing that, John D.

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## fatt-dad

And a big thanks to JohnD. Like I needed another mandolin!  I was surely tempted; however.  Just a lovely project that included so many great people - almost cyber friends!  Congratulations!

f-d

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