# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  Chris takes a shot at Henry - No mando content

## MikeEdgerton

OK, this isn't the first CEO model made by Martin that had a striking resemblance to a Gibson product but this one is pretty blatant.

*The Martin CEO-8*

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## Bernie Daniel

> OK, this isn't the first CEO model made by Martin that had a striking resemblance to a Gibson product but this one is pretty blatant.
> 
> *The Martin CEO-8*



Good grief -- how sad, are they running out of ideas over there in Nazareth?   :Frown: 
Then adding "The Martin" in Gibson-style script is positively juvenile at best and insulting at worst. IMO.  Who do they think would buy one anyway?

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f5joe

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## EdHanrahan

As a Martin fan w/ lots of respect for Gibson, that _is_ a fair bit cringe-worthy.  And "The Martin" headstock!?

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## Jeff Hildreth

I long ago lost any respect for C F M IV when he claimed to have designed the CEO-5, which he did not.

Note that no other maker seems to have a CEO model.  It is a mind set.

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## Jacob

Martin gives Gibson the Bird.

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mando on the side, 

Mark Wilson, 

SpencerMando, 

Timbofood

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## SpencerMando

"The Martin" on the headstock made me chuckle. I don't know how IP law works or anything but could this be grounds for a potential lawsuit? If so people should buy these, then they'll have a lawsuit martin to sell in 50 years.

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Bernie Daniel

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## MikeEdgerton

If Gibson went after Martin for "The Martin" they would have to go after a lot of mandolin builders as well. Gibson wasn't the only instrument builder using "The" in the early days either. I know of "The Dayton". There might be others. 

The CEO-5 was pretty much like the D-18S. I had one, it was a great little guitar. I wish I'd kept it. I think the CEO series has been a successful marketing ploy for Martin and some were obviously based on Gibson models, at least cosmetically.

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JEStanek

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## bruce.b

Wow. Martin has really jumped the shark with this one. "The Martin" on the headstock is a terrible idea.

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## Timbofood

Oh, NO they dit'n!

Oh good grief, they DID!
Ewww.

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## Fretbear

Tragic........

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## FLATROCK HILL

Wow...April 1st already!?!

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## Hudmister

I remember back in the 70's some Pac-rim manufacturer made a dreadnought guitar called C.F. Marlin.  This somehow reminds me of that.  Times must be tough at Martin.  The pickguard looks el-cheapo.  Time for a management change at Martin before they loose their loyal followers like me.

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## dcoventry

$5K+ and they couldn't put an Adi top on it?? 

For shame.

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## sunburst

:Grin: 
I think it hilarious!
Chris Martin said, when they introduced the Taylor-ish guitars a few years back, something like "People have been copying Martin guitars for years...". I think he's saying something like; OK, how does it feel when _your_ design gets copied?
I feel pretty sure Chris did his legal homework and knows exactly what he can get away with and have a sound legal foundation to stand on.

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almeriastrings, 

Gerry Cassidy, 

Markus, 

sgarrity

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## Gerry Cassidy

> I think it hilarious!
> Chris Martin said, when they introduced the Taylor-ish guitars a few years back, something like "People have been copying Martin guitars for years...". I think he's saying something like; OK, how does it feel when _your_ design gets copied?
> I feel pretty sure Chris did his legal homework and knows exactly what he can get away with and have a sound legal foundation to stand on.


I couldn't agree more. This is funny! Kudos to Chris.

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## MikeEdgerton

I have no problem with it, everybody else copies Martin and I'm sure Chris Martin knows what he's doing.

Actually, I'd like to try one of these. I've never cared much for the Gibson model. I should add I'd never pay this much for the Martin copy or the Gibson original, and yes I'm a Martin and a Gibson owner (as well as Taylor and Breedlove and a bunch more).

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## Bernie Daniel

> I have no problem with it, everybody else copies Martin and I'm sure Chris Martin knows what he's doing.
> 
> Actually, I'd like to try one of these. I've never cared much for the Gibson model. I should add I['d never pay this much for the Martin copy or the Gibson original, and yes I'm a Martin and a Gibson owner (as well as Taylor and Breedlove and a bunch more).


A lot of people copy Martin --that is certainly true.  Why?

I think mostly other makers copy Martin because their instruments do not have the name and image (and they are often inferior too) so they want the Martin halo for their own brand.

So does this mean Martin is now copying Gibson because they feel a little inferior and a need to emulate a better brand?  Just wondering.

You would probably know this if anyone would -- has Gibson ever copied Martin like this?    

When Gibson wanted go after the D-28 in 1935 they made the Advanced Jumbo and that could not be considered copying -- they did it their way.

Would the square shouldered dreadnought be considered something that Gibson copied?

Waiting for "The Martin" F-5?

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...Waiting for "The Martin" F-5?


Too late, they imported them years ago.

*Martin Sigma F-5*

And now we have mando content. Perfect!

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Bernie Daniel, 

DataNick, 

Petrus

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## atbuckner21

This seems like a rock throwing contest to me. All the rocks are landing on windows. I don't understand why they would create "The Martin" in such a blatant move.

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## Astro

I'll bet thats one of the best 2000 dollar guitars you can buy for 5300 dollars.

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atbuckner21, 

Bernie Daniel, 

bruce.b, 

Douglas McMullin, 

John Soper, 

Mickey King, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Petrus, 

SpencerMando, 

Timbofood

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## MikeEdgerton

> has Gibson ever copied Martin like this?


Actually the Advanced Jumbo would be close by the body style alone, the second line instruments with square cut head stocks in the 30's copied the look of the Martin headstock but I assume that was mainly for ease of construction of a budget line instrument. Beyond that Gibson has it's share of headstock shapes and body shapes to build so I would answer that "not that I recall". Keep in mind you probably can't buy a Gibson flat top guitar that isn't x-braced and that can be traced back to Martin so it's not just the outside that comes into play. I'm sure that they won't be building a thousand of these a year.

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## MikeEdgerton

> I'll bet thats one of the best 2000 dollar guitars you can buy for 5300 dollars.


Amen to that.

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atbuckner21

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## shelley.heard

I cannot imagine anyone playing this guitar model at the Ryman Auditorium or on the Grand Old Opry.

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atbuckner21

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## sgarrity

I won't be buying one but I do think it's funny.

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## SincereCorgi

Oh man, that's awesome. I'm imagining a nice little after-work party some Friday in Nazareth, and everybody's laughing, and then hey-let's-have-some-beers, and then somebody opens some good bourbon just for fun, and then more bourbon, and oh-man-wouldn't-it-be-hilarious-if... then 48 hours later everybody wakes up with a hangover and a production order for a batch of J-200s.

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atbuckner21, 

bassthumper, 

jochemgr

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## nordian

> Too late, they imported them years ago.
> 
> *Martin Sigma F-5*
> 
> And now we have mando content. Perfect!


That's pretty funny. I just happen to have one of those I bought off ebay about 7 years ago. Not too bad for what it is.

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## Jackgaryk

Hmm...Looks a lot like the wood the feds took from Gibson.  Wonder what happened to that wood pile?

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## foldedpath

Well, that's sad and also funny. 

Aside from the design borrowings, I'm not sure I'd want to pay that kind of money for a guitar with a "black Corian headplate." I know good ebony is scarce, maybe even in veneers now, but they couldn't find something else in wood that would look good? Maybe Corian cuts better for automated inlay, but that's no excuse on a guitar this expensive. 

Also, a sycamore neck? I haven't followed guitar trends in years. Is that a new thing? Something "green," or just short mahogany supply?

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## Spruce

> Oh man, that's awesome.


+1...
I think it might the hit of this week's NAMM show...   ;-)

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## Gerry Cassidy

> then 48 hours later everybody wakes up with a hangover and a production order for a batch of J-200s.


This would be the only way I'd buy a J-200.

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## Bernie Daniel

> I cannot imagine anyone playing this guitar model at the Ryman Auditorium or on the Grand Old Opry.


Due you suppose this is a Taylor Swift kind of guitar?

The old quote that the Gibson J-200 is the "King of the Flat tops" must have finally cause the Martin guys to suffer a bout of brain flatulence?.

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Charles E.

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## allenhopkins

I thought when Gibson "squared up" the silhouette on its J-45's and J-50's in the 1960's, that they were bowing to the influence of the Martin dreadnought (which, by the way, was originally developed by Martin only for sale to Ditson, and not for Martin instruments).

Almost every dreadnought-size guitar now looks much like a Martin, just as almost every F-model or near-F-model mandolin is a ringer for a Gibson.  Banjos -- well, not too much you can _do_ to make a banjo unique; change the headstock shape, but what else?

Gibson did fool around with the alternative Kasha bracing system on its guitars, but that met with little acceptance.  Mostly large-body steel-string guitars have bracing systems that may "tweak" the Martin template, but clearly show their ancestry.

I think it's sorta humorous that Martin's "knocking off" the Gibson jumbo profile, but I can't see where this'll be a big seller for them.  Surprisingly there's been a recent trend toward smaller-bodied guitars, probably because improvements in amplification systems have made the "big box" less necessary -- other than in bluegrass bands, where big boomy bass is still required.  I've been playing a 00-size Martin "mongrel" (re-make of an 00-28G into an 00-42) for nearly ten years now; I think it's big enough for what I'm doing.

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## jochemgr

That thing is nothing short of hilarious! I'm sure it was meant as a tribute to Gibson, but still.. Other than for a really expensive joke I can see no reason why you wouldn't just get a Gibson J-200 if that's what you're after.

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## bruce.b

Hilarious as in laughing with or laughing at Martin? For me it's hilarious as in laughing at them.

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atbuckner21

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## Bernie Daniel

> That thing is nothing short of hilarious! I'm sure it was meant as a tribute to Gibson, but still.. Other than for a really expensive joke I can see no reason why you wouldn't just get a Gibson J-200 if that's what you're after.


Imitation is the highest form of flattery?  Guys like Vince Gill and others like him will buy one for their collections I suppose so maybe it will make a little cash for Martin?  

FYI, Gibson has built any number of very fancy very limited editions of the J-200 - some these special models trade hands for MANY thousands of dollars.

Wonder what the guitar forums are saying?

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## Three-Dz

The funniest thing I've ever seen Martin do, was when they offered up the DX-1 in the low end market. Formica back and sides and that crazy layered neck. Come on, how expensive can laminate wood be! This really doesn't surprise me from what I've seen coming from them of late. I'm a big fan of their older guitars too, just sort of sad really! :Chicken:

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atbuckner21

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

This may give the term "Lawsuit" model a whole new meaning...

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## barney 59

> I cannot imagine anyone playing this guitar model at the Ryman Auditorium or on the Grand Old Opry.


Well, a lot of people played Grammer guitars back in the day on the Opry and they were pretty ghastly looking (Porter,Wilburn Bros. Dolly(a tiny one) Bobby Bare and JR all had Grammers . Billy Grammer was an Opry member.
The main thing that the Advanced Jumbo copied of the Martin was the fret scale. Die hard Martin fans think, if they ever get their hands on an AJ, that it's the best Gibson ever and largely because of the fret scale. I finally got to play one and I had to agree --best Gibson guitar for sure! So does this Martin/ Gibson copy thing have a Gibson scale or a Martin scale?

     Not with standing this particular model Martin does still manage to produce some really great guitars these days. Mostly though it seems these tangent things aren't them--think Fritz the Cat!

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## Timbofood

Exactly Bernie, I have a feeling this will be short lived. I kind of like J-200's they are different from the Martin sound not better just different.
An old friend (blues guy) played J-185's and they were killer for his style, I would still like to own one of those....too.
Another friend had a green Grammer, one of the least handsome dreadnaughts I have ever seen! Sounded great though.

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## Caleb

Buy a Larrivee, where the CEO still actually builds some of the guitars.

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atbuckner21, 

eadg145, 

Three-Dz

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## Dave Cohen

Since June, 2014, the Chief Product Officer at CF Martin has been Fred Greene.  At the 2013 ASIA convention, Chris Martin said in his Saturday evening talk that he was actively seeking a new CEO or COO so that he could step back from day-to-day operations.  Thus, this particular CEO Model guitar may or may not have been Chris Martin's idea.

Henry certainly has fired shots at Chris in the past.  Seems to me that product development types develop their lines to respond to market demand.  It does seem sad that market demand just circles around and around the same old stuff.

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## CES

> Oh man, that's awesome. I'm imagining a nice little after-work party some Friday in Nazareth, and everybody's laughing, and then hey-let's-have-some-beers, and then somebody opens some good bourbon just for fun, and then more bourbon, and oh-man-wouldn't-it-be-hilarious-if... then 48 hours later everybody wakes up with a hangover and a production order for a batch of J-200s.


I like the way you think!!

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## Paul Busman

On a slightly related note, I built a Les Paul clone from a kit 7-8 yrs ago. I matched the Fusion Orange Metallic finish of my wife's Pontiac Grand Am, which looks pretty sharp.  I was trying to figure out something for the headstock, and since my name is Paul, I came up with this:

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SincereCorgi

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## jochemgr

> Hilarious as in laughing with or laughing at Martin?


At. 
I'm not anti Martin at all, in fact I own a bunch of them that I hope to keep for the rest of my life. I wish they would focus on some more affordable variety in their 45 line-up. The new OM45 looks fab, but is well unaffordable to most of us with a list price $100k (approx $60k street). 

Their CEO line has had a few more Gibson inspired models. The CEO4  was basically a J-45, CEO6 got a Gibson styled logo too, CEO7 looks like a Gibson L-flattop model to me. From what I read the CEO7 sold quite well and is quite popular on the Martin forum. 

Nothing "tops" these though for me though.. 
DX175 and D28 Louvin Bros

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## Astro

Keep it on the down low Busman, or Gibson will make you change your first name.

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## Jeff Hildreth

X bracing pre dates Martin.. look back to Germany before 1833.

"The CEO-5 was pretty much like the D-18S."

That was not the basis of the CEO-5.. there's much more to it than that. and CFM IV had nothing to do with it but the label, the pearl and the gag me gold hardware.

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## Cheryl Watson

I think that it is humorous and blatant both at the same time. I'm just a bit shocked but there are so many other MUCH more shocking things in the world that I think that I will just chuckle and shake my head  :Laughing:  :Disbelief:

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Randolph

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## Bernie Daniel

> On a slightly related note, I built a Les Paul clone from a kit 7-8 yrs ago. I matched the Fusion Orange Metallic finish of my wife's Pontiac Grand Am, which looks pretty sharp.  I was trying to figure out something for the headstock, and since my name is Paul, I came up with this:


very cool!

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## MikeEdgerton

> X bracing pre dates Martin.. look back to Germany before 1833.
> 
> "The CEO-5 was pretty much like the D-18S."
> 
> That was not the basis of the CEO-5.. there's much more to it than that. and CFM IV had nothing to do with it but the label, the pearl and the gag me gold hardware.


Well, I can pretty much tell you the history of X bracing but the modern version as used by almost everyone is attributed to C. F. Martin, who happened to emigrate from Germany to the US. I'm real familiar with Martin history as well, having owned a dozen or so over the years, been to the factory, handled many more, and read all the books. I'm sure you've got some major vintage chops but it really doesn't matter. Really,  it's closer to the Ditson but it really was more like a D18S without the squared slots but you knew that. No sense in splitting hairs.

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## MikeEdgerton

> On a slightly related note, I built a Les Paul clone from a kit 7-8 yrs ago. I matched the Fusion Orange Metallic finish of my wife's Pontiac Grand Am, which looks pretty sharp.  I was trying to figure out something for the headstock, and since my name is Paul, I came up with this:


I have a Banjo playing friend whose last name is Gilson. He actually has that name inlaid on the headstock of a custom banjo in Gibson script. I envy you guys that can slip your name in there  :Smile:

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## MikeEdgerton

I'm sure you will see one of these on the Opry because Martin will give at least one to some star to play there. The funny thing is that from a distance it will look like a J-200 and when some person sees one and likes the way it looks they are probably going to find the Gibson model before they ever find a Martin. I don't see them making a ton of these to sell unless they start getting orders and at that price I don't see that happening. I think this is a poke and nothing more. I don't see it taking off at that price.

I should have kept my CEO-5. That's what happens when one gets MAS.

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## atbuckner21

Amen. My Larrivee is the best guitar I have ever played including vintage and new guitars ten times it's value.



> Buy a Larrivee, where the CEO still actually builds some of the guitars.

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Caleb, 

Three-Dz

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## Caleb

> Amen. My Larrivee is the best guitar I have ever played including vintage and new guitars ten times it's value.


The only guitar I've ever played that I liked more than my Larrivee, was another Larrivee.

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atbuckner21, 

Three-Dz

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## allenhopkins

> The funniest thing I've ever seen Martin do, was when they offered up the DX-1 in the low end market. Formica back and sides and that crazy layered neck. Come on, how expensive can laminate wood be!...


I bought a "High Pressure Laminate" (HPL), or Formica, Little Martin guitar a few years ago, to take as a travel instrument for a train trip to California.  Cost about $280 with a nice gig bag, and sounded like a decent little guitar.  Pretty hard to damage -- well worth the price, in my book.

Martin made an evident decision a few years ago to stop conceding the mid-range market to Asian imports.  Strategy seems to work out for them.  They keep spinning off "limited editions" and "signature" models at the top end, but they now have a number of decent instruments that younger musicians and the non-wealthy can afford.

Of course, these guitars pale in comparison to their classic models, but things were a bit different when I could pick up a D-18 for $300, gently used.  What Gibson has done, in comparison, is to catalog a broad range of Asian imports under its Epiphone (and now, Flatiron) label.  While it does seem a bit "wrong" to buy a guitar made out of paper and glue heat-pressed together, yet still labeled "Martin," I slightly prefer Martin's strategy to Gibson's.

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Paul Statman, 

Randy Smith

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## Three-Dz

I agree with what you are saying Allen, they did make their self affordable to that market. I'm just saying I think they could have done that with a laminate guitar. There are some cheap imports out there with better materials, I would have expected a little better from Martin. My friend had one and it did sound good, just couldn't get past that crazy layered wood neck!

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allenhopkins

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## foldedpath

> I bought a "High Pressure Laminate" (HPL), or Formica, Little Martin guitar a few years ago, to take as a travel instrument for a train trip to California.  Cost about $280 with a nice gig bag, and sounded like a decent little guitar.  Pretty hard to damage -- well worth the price, in my book.
> 
> Martin made an evident decision a few years ago to stop conceding the mid-range market to Asian imports.  Strategy seems to work out for them.  They keep spinning off "limited editions" and "signature" models at the top end, but they now have a number of decent instruments that younger musicians and the non-wealthy can afford.
> 
> Of course, these guitars pale in comparison to their classic models, but things were a bit different when I could pick up a D-18 for $300, gently used.  What Gibson has done, in comparison, is to catalog a broad range of Asian imports under its Epiphone (and now, Flatiron) label.  While it does seem a bit "wrong" to buy a guitar made out of paper and glue heat-pressed together, yet still labeled "Martin," I slightly prefer Martin's strategy to Gibson's.


At least the cheap Gibson offshore models are made of wood where it matters. 

The first thing that struck me about the CEO model wasn't the design, it was that "Corian headplate" spec for the headstock. On a $5,000 guitar? Really?

I sure hope Martin is still offering a lifetime warranty, because when wood decides to move and shrink a little bit over the years, the synthetic parts don't follow. And that's why all-wood guitars and other all-wood instruments have been valued over the years. Everything moves together.

I have a nice Weber octave mandolin, a bit less than 10 years old, where the frets are sticking out a tiny bit on the ends, and need to be dressed because the fingerboard has shrunk a little. That's normal. I expect that with frets. I don't expect the laminated face of the headstock on any of my wooden instruments to behave the same way, and I don't see how that won't be a problem down the line, with this Corian headplate. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks to me like they chose a material that was cheap and easy to laser-cut for inlay, and aren't thinking long-term for the instrument. Martin didn't used to be a company like that, not for $5k guitars. 

I'm still wondering about the sycamore neck too. Is that a new thing for guitars?

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allenhopkins

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## Jim Garber

CEO7 was also a Gibson copy of an L-00.

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## almeriastrings

> I agree with what you are saying Allen, they did make their self affordable to that market. I'm just saying I think they could have done that with a laminate guitar. There are some cheap imports out there with better materials, I would have expected a little better from Martin. My friend had one and it did sound good, just couldn't get past that crazy layered wood neck!


On that topic, I know a little background and also some of the folks who were involved in the project. It was not done for cost reasons, for one thing, because it would indeed have been cheaper (and involved less special tooling up) to use standard laminate. It was done to bring new ideas and materials to the market that had some unique properties. The 'stratabond' neck, for example (despite the fact that it looks rather obviously different) is incredibly stable - and tough. The backs and sides are highly temperature and humidity resistant and also resist scratching and impacts well. In one sense, a much cheaper way to achieve similar environmental 'proofing' than with carbon fiber. Companies often 'trial' new ideas and materials. Martin has done this a lot in recent years, with sustainable 'Smartwood' models using domestic woods, and with various other less 'traditional' materials.  They also have a bit of history in producing 'fun' guitars.... the famous (or infamous) fiery Louvin Brothers model, for example... or maybe this one  :Wink: 

Sycamore: Anyone know _which_ sycamore? If the European species (_Acer pseudoplatanus)_, this is what violin necks have been made from for centuries. The typical European 'flamed maple'. The American Sycamore (_Platanus occidentalis_), is a different thing entirely - a member of the 'plane tree' family.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Somebody at the Martin factory musy have a wry sense of humour !. Personally,i think it's as ghastly as the guitar it seems to be copying. I'd have thought that the Martin Co.would have thought twice before trotting that thing out.You might as well just buy the real thing & have done with it - if that happens to be your taste. It certainly ain't mine !,
                                                                                                                       Ivan :Wink:

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## Michael Lewis

I wonder what stories there are behind this 'event'. Pokes, jabs, and veiled threats, or not.   An obvious fake (out) move toward copying some aspects, like the term "cherry burst" that Gibson has certainly capitalized on over the years, but this so called cherry burst is just a 3 color dark burst, not at all like Gibson's version except for the term.

Maybe it's just some inside joke, but I bet there is a good story in there somewhere.  Maybe several stories, . . . I can imagine a movie about all this.

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## Bernie Daniel

> .....I'm still wondering about the sycamore neck too. Is that a new thing for guitars?






> ....Sycamore: Anyone know _which_ sycamore? If the European species (_Acer pseudoplatanus)_, this is what violin necks have been made from for centuries. The typical European 'flamed maple'. The American Sycamore (_Platanus occidentalis_), is a different thing entirely - a member of the 'plane tree' family.


I wondered about those two questions too -- but maybe it is not such a bad decision in the end?

I'd mostly like to see a pic of that sycamore back -- I ASSUME they mean American sycamore (Platanus occidentalis) and not the European maple.  

Because as you point out using the later would not be breaking new ground and if maple is the choice then it is much easier just to get an American maple?

That choice, Scycamore, is pretty cool IMO so pat on the back for Martin for that from me.   

Sycamore is a beautiful hardwood and probably should be used more.  It is not as dense as maple but it is very hard and also very tough.  Sycamore = 24 -37 pounds/cubic foot versus 39 - 47 for maple.

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## UsuallyPickin

Bad marketing ideas as well as poor taste seem to know no bounds ........... I truly love many Martin guitars but I am rapidly losing respect for the company........ R/

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## Mandobar

Rumor has it that there were some builders who paid Henry settlements and are free to go about their business unfettered by IP matters.

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## William Smith

That truly is one hideous Martin! I don't think I've ever seen one so. "UGLY" Well ugly girls need love to!

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## farmerjones

So just reading this thread there is a mixed interpretation of just what was trying to be accomplished.  
Usually, the risk of loosing a future sale trumps. So whatever goes on in the mind of the CEO is a bit more private. 
Maybe the idea was to generate chat. In that case he's a genius. Get you in the NAMM booth with this morphadyte. Then once you're there, why not try a custom D45?

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## Finger Stylish

Imitation being the highest form of flattery.
Showing your neighbor how close you can get without trespassing.

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## Jesse Harmon

With everything that is on the market today the only real thing about this that is truly bad in tragic proportions is the price imho.  I just had an 80 year old guitar student walk in with a Keith Urban guitar that he bought after watching an infomercial.  At least he only paid 200. for that and the cheap case is probably the best thing about it except it will tune.  He is enjoying it immensely and has no clue what anyone thinks about it.  If he would have bought the Martin, he still would be enjoying it, maybe a little poorer,  but still would have no clue about all these opinions.  At least until either falls apart, if they really do fall apart. No one would bet the farm on that one if you were cornered to bet.  I have seen some unbelievable old cheap instruments.

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## stevedenver

wow

I guess this guitar just isn't 'authentic' and thus the rancor and outrage.
I mean, only Martin can produce Matin designs, and only Gibson can produce Gibson designs? 


I guess, 
most don't complain about wearing blue jeans that don't say Levi
I guess most of us have no issues with F models, or, dreds that don't say Martin

I would HOPE, that
there's an understanding that if you're a Martin guy, 
and wanted a unique piece, this is certainly IT.
I think this is really relevant, as , just as there is the "Gibson lifestyle"  :Wink: , there are folks that simply adore Martin, ball caps, straps, picks, t shirts, mugs, etc ad nauseum.

and 'they aren't going to make a ton", which is something in and of itself, if you like Martin(s).
It is a collector's item imho. Nothing more , nothing less.

Aside from the marketing brainwash, which I like to think I might get 50% of the time, what's the problem?  

Gibson had no issue copping a PRS design for its double cutaway LP, strat designs, etc., nor did PRS in copping an LP.  Yet these 'fakes' would uniquely reflect, albeit subtly, the builders unique 'take'. etc.


I guess too, that the very fact they used "The Martin" is tongue in cheek. Or, a tip of the cap.

I would want to hear the martin version first, and then throw stones, not the other way around.
it may well be the best J200 ever.  And possibly that L-00 also, they just didn't come from Henry.

Certainly there are many current mando and guitar builders that greatly surpass Gibson at its own game, with nary a word about the legitimacy of those.  Nor has anyone ever doubted the legitimacy of a Gibson Southern Jumbo, created due to the success of the Martin Dreadnought.  In fact, dreds are the most popular and widespread of all guitar shapes, as I understand things, and I need not mention the basic 2 shapes of mandolins. But these are well established.  

So are we casting stones at the utility of these instruments, which I would expect to great, 
or the aestheticsor not being 'the real deal'?
or, price/value?

or just 'too damn different'; aint no part a nuthin

As for hideous and ugly, well, a J200 is a J200 by any other name
imho not one of the more elegant guitar shapes and sizes, I agree, but 
as for what company's /who's name is on the headstock, what color it is, and the sound and neck, I would love to hear one and play it to make an more informed assessment. 

As a dyed in the wool Martin dred player, I like the looks of that 200. I like triburst.


I have a telecaster that doesn't say fender, and its the best I've ever come across, vintage or otherwise, and likewise my two favorite mandolins don't say Gibson, go figure........

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Jesse Harmon

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## Bernie Daniel

> wow
> 
> I guess this guitar just isn't 'authentic' and thus the rancor and outrage.
> I mean, only Martin can produce Matin designs, and only Gibson can produce Gibson designs? 
> 
> 
> I guess, 
> most don't complain about wearing blue jeans that don't say Levi
> I guess most of us have no issues with F models, or, dreds that don't say Martin
> ...


Wow too!  I'm not sure how you feel about this matter but I suggest two Bayer aspirins and some bed rest!   :Smile:

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## lukmanohnz

Well, it's certainly getting people's attention.  From a marketing perspective that's often the goal.  Comedians like to say a groan is as good as a laugh.  And though it's beyond my pay grade and runs more peacock than my aesthetic preferences, isn't it possible that the model was designed as genuine homage - with the tongue clear of the cheek - rather than shot across the bow? Martin and Gibson are surely competitors in the flat top acoustic market, but I imagine there must be a mutual respect for their histories and legacy.

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## stevedenver

> Wow too!  I suggest two Bayer aspirins and some bed rest!


played one have you Bernie?

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## Jesse Harmon

That prescription could probably apply to the whole thread.

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## Bernie Daniel

> played one have you Bernie?


Don't need to Steve I have the REAL thing!  Comments were meant as just a little levity.  :Smile: 
But I'd try it out if it were offered.

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## stevedenver

my point exactly
sorry if I offended with my thoughts on a 200 shape.....

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## Bernie Daniel

> my point exactly
> sorry if I offended with my thoughts on a 200 shape.....



I'm just glad that Martin finally admitted that the J-200 really IS the "King of the flat tops"!

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## Steve Ostrander

> Too late, they imported them years ago. Martin Sigma F-5. And now we have mando content. Perfect!


Wow, that scroll is really bad. Gotta be in the bottom ten worst scrolls....

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## Steve Ostrander

> Buy a Larrivee, where the CEO still actually builds some of the guitars.


I took this advice about a year ago when I fell in love with a Larrivee at Elderly. A fabulous guitar that was priced lower than a comparable CFM, and sounds better to my ear.

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atbuckner21

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## Bob Buckingham

First of all, it is my humble opinion that Martin is currently making some of the best guitars of its long and storied history.  Secondly, I have a CEO-7 and when I went to a rehearsal for an upcoming show last night I took my Gibson L-00 as it has a Barcus-Berry in it and I will have to plug in for that show.  One of the fellows in the acoustic blues band had a worried look and asked if I still had the CEO-7.  I said yes and he was relieved as he thought it much better than the L-00 for all around sound.  I have to agree, it is much better but that Gibson is not real old and is exceptional as its back and sides are Bubinga and not mahogany.  It does make it darker than most and is a very good guitar, the CEO-7 is just  better.  This is just my opinion so carry on with your bad selves and have fun.  I've got guitars to play!

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## foldedpath

> So are we casting stones at the utility of these instruments, which I would expect to great, 
> or the aestheticsor not being 'the real deal'?
> or, price/value?


Well, like I said, for me the standout feature here is the the idea of using plastic instead of traditional wood veneer for the headplate on a $5,000+ guitar. To me, that's cheesy, no matter what brand name is inlaid into it. They use rosewood for the headplate on their standard series D-18, D-28 etc. guitars, which cost $2,000 less. It's not outrage or rancor, just "what the heck were they thinking?" And it goes directly to your questions above, in the price/value category. 

On the aesthetics side, apart from other borrowings from Gibson, I've just never liked any company using a "The" prefix ahead of the brand name. Including Gibson for their modern instruments. It just seems pretentious. If my mandolin had said "The Lebeda" on the headstock, I might not have bought it. Just a personal opinion there. The objection to the Corian headplate is a more objective criticism on price/value and possible future repair issues.

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atbuckner21

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## eadg145

Honestly, if I saw that guitar in a retail shop, I would just assume it's a cheap Asian knockoff by a clueless builder who doesn't know the difference between Martins and Gibsons.

And I'm definitely a Martin fan.

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## barney 59

No one is talking about how this guitar sounds or how it plays. Being as the Rev. Gary Davis has been a lifelong musical hero of mine and his signature guitar was a J200 and the young Emmy Lou is someone who I thought of as really hot I have been somewhat in awe of the J200 but have yet to own one. I figure that I'm either not big enough for a J200(Gary Davies' wing span and hands were huge!) or not small enough(Little Jimmy Dickens) for a J200.  I've owned a couple of other Gibson guitars and do in fact prefer Martin. I've read some stuff about Chris Martin and he's been a really savvy businessman and his strategies have rejuvenated Martin both in the quality of what they can produce and the finances of the company. One of the things I think he realized and adopted was that as a manufacturer that you have to appeal to all markets in order to stay in the game. There is a market for a guitar such as this and so why not make one? The styling of this guitar will  not be to everyone's taste but I don't think it's meant to be and if your haberdasher is "Manuel" it might look good with your clothes!

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## Givson

I think Martin should do a tribute to the Fender Wildwood series acoustic guitars.  They could do a Bigsby-style headstock as on the Merle Travis model, so not to infringe on the Fender copyrighted headstock.

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atbuckner21

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## Kevin K

Martin shouldn't had copied Gibson, very sad....While I do like the current Gibson mandolins a great deal, Dave and crew are doing great work.
When it comes to acoustic guitars, I'd rather have a Martin. .....not a Martin that looks like a Gibson.

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## Paul Kotapish

I think that some of us mandolincafe folks are taking this Gibson-knockoff model--and the whole CEO-model concept--a whole lot more seriously than Chris Martin and the Martin folks do. I spoke to Chris about this series some years ago, and my take is that it is just an excuse to have a little fun and try out some things.

I would agree that Martin is building some of its best guitars ever right now, and also that Martin has a long history of flubbed experiments (anybody out there playing a Martin electric?). Maybe the "Martin Gibson" is a flop, too, but its hardly a big deal. I got a laugh out of it, anyway, and I'm still curious to hear how it sounds.

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DavidKOS, 

Markus, 

SincereCorgi, 

stevedenver

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## barney 59

> Martin shouldn't had copied Gibson, very sad....While I do like the current Gibson mandolins a great deal, Dave and crew are doing great work.
> When it comes to acoustic guitars, I'd rather have a Martin. .....not a Martin that looks like a Gibson.


But....and we don't know if this is true about this one-----how about a Gibson that sounds like a Martin? I make my living doing custom work for people --one thing I have learned from that is that there is no accounting for taste---someone is going to think the thing is beautiful! 
By the way the earliest Martin guitars had a head stock very much like a Fender---They would have a very good case to "copy" and besides I think the horse is out of the barn on that anyway. They had their day in court and the flowerpot and the Gibson logo are the only things proprietary on the F5, anyone can build with a scroll and thousands of Fender clones out there would indicate that the Fender body shape or head stock design don't belong to Fender alone. This would probably apply to most features on a J200 as well.
     I doubt that if this is a "flop" it won't make too much difference to Martin. It's not like a car manufacturer --the Pontiac Aztec ended the whole division---they seem to have designed the ability to do limited runs of a lot of instruments into their manufacturing plan and they still manage to make a profit.

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Timbofood

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## Perry

delete

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## Perry

I own a CEO-7...great guitar and a reasonable $2,150 street for sunburst, addy top and a dovetail joint. The CEO-7 is hardly a flop as they have sold quite a few.

Is it copying or paying tribute?...

As Paul states above the CEO series is supposed to be a bit out of the normal Martin character so to speak.

Bill Collings now has the Warterloo which is also a type of L-00 tribute like the CEO-7.

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## EdSherry

Whatever happened to "Only a Gibson is Good Enough"?  Jeez.

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## Perry

> Whatever happened to "Only a Gibson is Good Enough"?  Jeez.


They're not anymore  :Smile:   Actually there might be some good new J-45's out there I usually pick up the new J-45's when visiting Guitar Center...some are ok.

Can't wait for the CEO-J45  :Smile:

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## MikeEdgerton

> Can't wait for the CEO-J45


I'm pretty sure that was the *CEO-4*. That doesn't mean they won't do it again I suppose.

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## j. condino

This whole thread looks suspiciously like one of Scott's early April fools pranks!

j.
www.condino.com

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jim simpson

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## JeffD

> Maybe the idea was to generate chat. In that case he's a genius.


Bingo. No chat is bad chat.

We've gone on 4 pages here, and I have even contributed.   :Crying:

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## MikeEdgerton

> This whole thread looks suspiciously like one of Scott's early April fools pranks!
> 
> j.
> www.condino.com


Life imitates art

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atbuckner21

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## J.Albert

_Lighten up, guys._

Henry's probably laughing at this one, too.

Looks like Chris Martin (who I bought a guitar from personally when he and Dick Boak used to travel around in a van in the early 80's, selling strings and stuff) has a sense of humor, and isn't above expressing it in his product!

I wonder how it -sounds- ??

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## Petrus

Gibson should return the joke by turning right around and copying something from Martin.  Then again ...  :Confused:

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## Jeff Mando

I was hoping this thread was going to be about Chris Thile taking a shot at Henry Kissinger, but then again, that wouldn't really make a lot of sense, would it?

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stevedenver

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## Bernie Daniel

> Gibson should return the joke by turning right around and copying something from Martin.  Then again ...



Exactly!  :Laughing:

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## Bob Sayers

I received a Martin email the other day about the new 2015 models.  Like other posters here, I did a double-take when I saw the CEO-8.  But I don't see any joke-on-Henry conspiracy here.  It may be that Martin is trying to gain a share of an important market that Gibson pioneered and has dominated for so long:  that is, the jumbo country-and-western guitar with a sunburst finish, large decorated pick guard, and other bling.  Nothing wrong with that, especially since Gibson has in the past produced (and continues to produce) models that look suspiciously like Martin dreadnaughts.  As they say, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."  Whether or not Martin will peel off some Gibson fans is hard to say.  Martin tried that, with very limited success, in the 1930s with their entry into the market for archtop F-hole jazz guitars.  But I presume, based on different construction methods, that the CEO-8 will sound more like a Martin guitar than a Gibson guitar--which may appeal to Martin fans looking for a little more bling.  Anyway, I like it.  I do think, however, that the "The Martin" logo is a little over the top.

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stevedenver

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## zoukboy

<yaaaaaawn>  Really, who gives a crap? Martin and Gibson are mediocre, overpriced factory guitars? Shall we argue over whether Tokai or Yamaha had the best Strat rip-off?  :-)

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## jochemgr

> <yaaaaaawn>  Really, who gives a crap?


Four pages of comments in less than two days should be an obvious answer to your question.

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## David Lewis

> <yaaaaaawn>  Really, who gives a crap? Martin and Gibson are mediocre, overpriced factory guitars? Shall we argue over whether Tokai or Yamaha had the best Strat rip-off?  :-)


It was Yamaha. Played one for 25 years. Then bought a telecaster...

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## Astro

Thanks to the creepy cyber stalking target ads that appear in that right hand column of facebook, I noticed this guitar's ad has over 800,000 "Likes".

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