# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Freshwater Instruments close down

## pgrose

A few months ago I posted asking if anyone knew why Freshwater Instruments had gone quiet. I waited 9 months for an octave mandola I was assured by Dave Freshwater was finished. His initial estimate was 9 weeks from order to delivery. But there always seemed to be an excuse as to why it had not arrived. This morning I received the following email. So.... no octave mandola, I guess! For other reasons, I feel pretty badly let down.

Hello,
Now that our trustee has allowed us to do this  we are sadly writing to let you know that it is with much regret that  Freshwater Instruments  has been forced into bankrupcy ( liquidation), due to our bank and also the  effect of the recession.

We sincerely apologise for the waiting you have endured , without the outcome of an instrument at the end of this, but unfortunately the situation is unavoidable.

If you have paid by credit card, you are able to contact your card company to make a claim under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act , and by law,they have to reimburse you the full amount , even when liquidation is involved.  There is more info at; www.wheresmyrefund.co.uk.

                    Freshwater Instruments.

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## Jill McAuley

Oh no! Did you pay in full or just put a deposit down with him? So sorry to hear about this unfortunate situation.

Cheers,
Jill

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## pgrose

I lost the purchase price. Dave had rung several times (only after repeated inquiries from me), always with assurances that everything was fine and the last time a couple of months ago to say it was finished. But even by then I had growing doubts. I feel quite deceived and there's a personal dimension to this, too as I had a special intention for this instrument. And even if the partly-finished instrument was sent to me COD I'd settle for that because I would finish it here. But the Freshwater website is gone as well.

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## Daithio

This is the first I've heard--he didn't send me an email.  Perhaps it's coming.  I'm more than a little angry about this.  He strung me along for 2 1/2 years.  That was about 800 bucks lost.  There wasn't anything I could do from across the ocean.  He probably won't answer, but his name on here is Stringer.

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## DerTiefster

Bankruptcy laws are interesting. Customers obligations are (to my limited knowledge) generally treated as unsecured obligations, and the products they order are generally treated as assets of the producer until they are shipped. Other groups of suppliers to the producer have their claims viewed as superior, and I can see how it developed. The suppliers of a producer are "in the business" and common law, with such concepts as the journeyman's lien, essentially developed to ensure that the wheels of commerce don't fall off immediately. The government has a continuing interest in keeping the rest of things moving even when one party collapses.

This works logically when you are dealing with a commodity supplier, such as a bakery or lumber mill.  But when you are dealing with a custom order business, in which the customer contracts for a particular instrument with particular characteristics, and especially when he makes "progress payments," cannot he argue successfully that he is indeed in the first rank of -secured- creditors on the basis of the construction agreement as a contract, and possibly in truth is the -owner- of the item as it is built?  While maybe this is not the  place for a discussion of legal philosophy, it -may- be possible to make such a case.  Of course, the other creditors would disagree, as this position removes assets from their pot of recoverable money.  Perhaps it is a question of the nature of proof required to substantiate such a position.

i am sorry for Mr. Freshwater, for his unsatisfied creditors, and for his customers such as you, who are left without recourse.

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## Ron McMillan

As a fellow Scot, I am embarrassed and ashamed by this fiasco. Bankruptcy can affect any business, and Freshwater is almost certainly a victim of the recession, but stringing along customers for years and in the end never delivering products long ago paid for is unforgiveable. 

If he comes back into business, I'd avoid him like the plague.

rm

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

I was very close in ordering one from Dave one year or two ago, and spoke with him a couple times on the phone. He was always friendly, sincere and helpful, and in the end I was almost sorry that I did not go through with my order. When some of the cafe members started asking questions a few months back, I thought to myself no way would Dave disappear just like that and not make good on his obligations.  I am both saddened and disappointed to be proved wrong this time around. 

I really hope that those who had given money to Freshwater can find some kind of recourse to recoup some, if not all, of their money. I was not around when the Ron Oates affair happened, so I didn't know how that whole ordeal worked out, except that there was a Attorney General case of some sort.  Is there anything that people had done in the Ron Oates case that could be helpful here?

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## michaelpthompson

It's hard to say what's really going on without more information than has been presented here. Many business fail financially despite the best intentions. He may sincerely have been trying to make good on those orders, but when you're in a hole, it can be difficult to find the resources to deliver on your promises. But you can't tell your customers that, or they may deprive you of the very resources you need to deliver their orders. Kind of like a run on the bank. It may be triggered by actual financial instability, or just as easily by rumours of that same instability.

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## Ron McMillan

Someone from Freshwater used to post here on the forum occasionally. I seem to recall that perhaps it was Dave's daughter.

This thread is a chance for Freshwater to clear the air and, if possible, to send some reassurances to customers who are rightly feeling hard done by. I will be very interested to see if they have the decency to respond.

ron

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## Jill McAuley

It was his daughter if I remember correctly - every so often she'd post, but generally only in response to any negative posts about her dad that might show up on that long thread about Freshwater instruments.

Cheers,
Jill

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## mandofun

Bonjour à tous . Je suis français. J'espère me faire comprendre
En septembre 2010 j'ai commandé et payé une mandole (octave mandola) à David Freshwater (via le site). Hésitant au début à cause de la distance, je me suis laissé convaincre par sa notoriété et ses coups de fils. Fin décembre, ne  voyant rien venir , j'ai demandé des nouvelles par mail. On me répond que du retard a été pris en raison du mauvais temps (sic), mais que cela allait s'arranger. Je me renseigne de nouveau en mars : même réponse par téléphone de D.F. me disant de ne pas me faire de soucis et me promettant l'instrument pour avril. Fin mai ,  après un nouveau mail de ma part, je reçois de nouveau un coup de fil  de D.F me disant que l'instrument est prêt , que je serai satisfait et qu'il sera envoyé par UPS le 2 juin. Le 18 juin, n'ayant toujours pas reçu cet envoi, je me renseigne par mail. Et quelle est ma (mauvaise) surprise de recevoir ce mail en retour :
  <<          _Now that our trustee has allowed us to do this ; we are sadly writing to let you know that it is with much regret that " Freshwater Instruments" have been forced into liquidation, partly due to our bank and also the effects of the recession .
             We sincerely apologise for the waiting you have endured , without the outcome of an instrument at the end of this, but unfortunately the situation is unavoidable now.
           If you have paid by credit card , you are able to contact your card company to make a claim under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act , and by law they have to reinburse you the full amount , even when liquidation is involved .   There is more info at; www.wheresmyrefund.co.uk .
             If you have paid by debit card, you can put in a claim to the bank that provides your card , which is called a "chargeback" ,and you should still get your money back , even with liquidation involved ._ >>

Je considère que j'ai été trompé et victime d'un abus de confiance. Je vais porter plainte, mais sans véritable espoir de récupérer mon argent. Jusqu'à présent je trouvais l'Ecosse plutôt sympathique !

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## mandofun

Hello to all. I am French. This is a (bad) translation of my precedent post

In September, 2010 I ordered and paid a mandole (octave mandola) to David Freshwater (via the site).Hesitating at the beginning because of the distance, I was allowed convince by its fame and its phone calls.At the end of December, seeing nothing coming, I asked for news by e-mail. We answer me that of the delay was taken because of the bad weather (sic), but that it was going to arrange. I inquire again in March: the same answer  by telephone. D.F. telling me not to worry and promising me the instrument for April. At the end of May, after a new e-mail of my part, I receive again a phone call of D.F saying to me that the instrument is ready, that I shall be satisfied and that it will be sent by UPS on June 2nd. June 18th, not having still received this sending, I inquire by e-mail.  And which is my (bad) surprise to receive this e-mail in return:

<< Now that our trustee has allowed us to do this ; we are sadly writing to let you know that it is with much regret that " Freshwater Instruments" have been forced into liquidation, partly due to our bank and also the effects of the recession .
We sincerely apologise for the waiting you have endured , without the outcome of an instrument at the end of this, but unfortunately the situation is unavoidable now.
If you have paid by credit card , you are able to contact your card company to make a claim under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act , and by law they have to reinburse you the full amount , even when liquidation is involved . 
 There is more info at; www.wheresmyrefund.co.uk .  If you have paid by debit card, you can put in a claim to the bank that provides your card ,  which is called a "chargeback" ,and you should still get your money back , even with liquidation involved .>>

I consider that I was deceived and victim of a breach of trust.

I am going to lodge a complaint, but without real hope to get back my money.

Until now I found the Scotland sympatico !

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## Ron McMillan

Mandofun provided a translation before I could post my own, rather poor, effort at translating for him.

In my opinion his story reflects very poorly on Freshwater.

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## Bertram Henze

> It's hard to say what's really going on without more information than has been presented here. Many business fail financially despite the best intentions. He may sincerely have been trying to make good on those orders, but when you're in a hole, it can be difficult to find the resources to deliver on your promises. But you can't tell your customers that, or they may deprive you of the very resources you need to deliver their orders. Kind of like a run on the bank. It may be triggered by actual financial instability, or just as easily by rumours of that same instability.


Second that - a good luthier does not neccessarily make a good businessman, and that is what you need to be to know the exact moment to pull out; it is a skill that involves seeing the future and is therefore hard to find. Probably, Mr. Freshwater is the one to feel worst about it, there's no reason to suspect fraud. Some poor businessmen become better businessmen by experience - after your 4th or 5th bankrupcy you get the knack - but customers are not inclined to bear with that. Giving money in advance is always a risky thing, and business risks are not abstract accidents happening to other people: they mean you, yes, you are bound to lose money every now and then. You should be aware of that and only do it if you have no other, safer use for the money.

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## Dagger Gordon

I'm sorry to hear this.

Freshwater operated from a town only about half an hour from me, but curiously I have never met him.  

There was something about last winter having been very bad in Scotland given as a reason for a delay on one of these threads.  I have to say I wasn't convinced by that at the time, and I wondered if all was well. 

It is embarrassing to have a Scotsman letting people down in this way, though as Bertram points out he probably feels the worst about it.  That's obviously no consolation to those who have been affected though.

I hope most of you will continue to find 'the Scotland symatico'.

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## Bertram Henze

> I hope most of you will continue to find 'the Scotland symatico'.


I sure will. The masters of long-term business (think: Single Malt) have my trust.  :Smile:

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## Tavy

I'm very very sorry to hear about all the folks that have lost out here, but a word of caution here before blaming Dave for being dishonest: Bankrupsy laws here in the UK are pretty strict; businesses are pretty much required to continue to take money from customers, and tell everyone that everything is just fine right up to the last second.  If the owner does anything else, they can quite literally end up in jail.  So no matter what the owner may wish to do for his customers, often they are prevented in law from doing so once the business is in trouble.

I should add, that I've never met or done business with Dave, just a heads up that businesses can be constrained in unfortunate ways from the point of view of the customer.  One can only hope that some of you will see some money back, but I'm afraid customers are at the end of the list of creditors under UK law  :Frown:

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## Ivan Kelsall

Bad news all round !. From *Tavy* - _"businesses are pretty much required to continue to take money from customers, and tell everyone that everything is just fine"_  . For 2 1/2 years as in the case of *Daithio* ?. If that really is the case,then it's almost collusion between the receivers & the company going into receivership to 'deceive' people - that's fraud,pure & simple.
  If i were to take money from say,6 people on here to build an instrument of their choosing,whilst unable to do so for 'whatever' reason,i'd be guilty of _'obtaining money under false pretences'_. It's exactly the same as offering goods for sale that you haven't got & taking money for them.
    Whilst feeling sorry for Dave Freshwater,i'm sure he wishes things were other wise,it's hard to think that he couldn't have made (tried) some recourse to reimburse the customers that he knew wouldn't be getting their instruments. It's hard to make a judgement without knowing all the facts,but it's a sorry case indeed,
                                             Ivan :Frown:

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## Silly Moustache

Hi, I'm no legal eagle, but I guess that for some time this business was in trouble. Unpayable debts and insufficient income etc. 

At such times the bank trends to take over, and would be instructing the business to get in all the income possible, and probably take all income against the bank's debt. 
At this time the business , it's proprietor or directors would be working hard to find some way out of the mess.  At some point the bank or the largest claimant would take action to take over the administration of the business. This may also mean taking ownership of products, facilities and all other assets. 
I guess they don't call it "receivership" for nut'n. 

The owner may well find themselves in a helpless position, and effectively working for the claimants on his debts. 

It's tricky, vicious and soul destroying. I used to have a lot of dealings with small businesses, I've seen them fail, and I've seen people, their dreams and their finances destroyed. This is part of the risk of running a business that many don't understand. 

I wouldn't be surprised if this business had been struggling with an increasing overdraft and/or business loan, and we know that banks aren't keen to lend at present (unless it is obvious that you donlt need it!)

Your friendly bank will always put their loans at the top of the priority heap, and can become quite ruthless. 

Andy

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## Elliot Luber

The end of a company is nearly always messy. It's sad that there is one less mandolin maker in Scotland, one who wants to make mandolins, and patient folks who still want them. It's a lose-lose situation, save for the banks (I won't get political).

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## pgrose

I am angry at the deception. I was always assured everything was OK (but only after I left numerous messages on an answering machine) and, like others, I also received occasional telephone calls explaining that the bad weather had cut off power or that the cold made it impossible to lacquer the instrument and then, two months ago, that it was finished (as Mandofun pointed out, there was always an excuse) but that Dave needed to organise a new contract with couriers etc etc etc
I always opted for patience but it's hard to see how it was never anything else but deception. I am beginning to suspect that there was never an octave mandola made at all, just a notebook with names and telephone numbers and a phone call every three months or more to say that everything was progressing. I had a very special purpose for that instrument and I had always given him the benefit of the doubt on time delays. I doubt I'll be hearing from Freshwater Instruments again.

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## Bill James

"but when you're in a hole, it can be difficult to find the resources to deliver on your promises."

*That* my friends, is the difference between an ethical businessman and a shark. When the going gets tough, the shark will always take good people down with him because that's his nature. I especially love the suggestion that you force the credit card company take the burden for your misdeeds and thus stick it to the rest of us.

"It's a lose-lose situation, save for the banks (I won't get political)."

It's easy to vilify the bank but the fact is that they are nothing more than businesses made up of good people. Most of the time they get taken for a ride as well as everyone else.  Frequently it's a win-lose situation because the bad guy gets a whole lot of money and has to provide nothing in return for it.

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## Daithio

I agree with pgrose on this. We both listened to a lot of stories.  Can't say I feel much pity for his legal troubles.

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## thistle3585

I can see both sides of the issue, the customers and Freshwater's, and it is an unfortunate situation. When a business is going under you literally feel like you're drowning and there is a lot of hopelessness and helplessness as you are at the mercy of the banks and courts.  However, I have seen three builders go through similar situations in the last couple years and all three turned things around and began making reparations.  Obviously not as quickly, and smoothly, as many would hope but they have put forth the effort so I'm still willing to give Dave the benefit of the doubt.  I think that people need to remember that there is always a risk when putting a deposit down.   What I don't understand is why a retailer would charge a credit card before the product is shipped.  My credit card contract prohibits that for this very reason.

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## Tavy

> I especially love the suggestion that you force the credit card company take the burden for your misdeeds and thus stick it to the rest of us.


Sigh, this is the issue with international transactions - over here _it's the law_ that anything bought on credit must insure you against this very situation.  Therefore all consumer groups here _strongly_ recomend that major purchases are made on credit cards: getting your money back from the card company when things go wrong is common practice here, albeit not something any of us would ever want to have to do.

That said, IMO no builder should be taking money up front for something that hasn't been built yet!!

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## Daithio

VISA has guarantees in the US.  I'll talk to my bank about it, but it has been since Feb. 2009 and it was an international transaction so I  don't know if it would work.  I'd love to be able to put the money toward another instrument.

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## Tavy

> VISA has guarantees in the US.  I'll talk to my bank about it, but it has been since Feb. 2009 and it was an international transaction so I  don't know if it would work.  I'd love to be able to put the money toward another instrument.


Wow, that's one long period of time.  Had it been me I think I would have been going to the County Court long before that, but ... _sigh_... international transaction again  :Frown: 

Anyhow I really hope you can get something back.

Regards, John.

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## Noahs Warning

I'm affected by the Freshwater closure too, although since I paid on my credit card I hope that I get my money back.  There is another dimension to this though, I can understand the desperation of trying to keep a business that has been your way of life for many years, but the deception is difficult to take.  I really thought he had become a distant friend; I chatted to him about my experience of scotland and my job, years ago, in the Raigmore hospital in Inverness.  Now reading all of the postings in this thread, I realise just how formulaic were his assurances and responses; I've heard most of these too.  I guess I shall come out of this with my money, I'm sorry that others will lose out financially, but the feeling of being used and deceived, quite deliberately takes some understanding.

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## MikeEdgerton

I don't know the man, I've never seen any of his instruments but this is not a new problem and will unfortunately reel it's ugly head every few years just as it has in the past. We've seen similar cases three or four times in the last four or five years. Some have attempted to come out of it. Some are still operating, owing folks money and instruments, and some disappear forever.

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## jim_n_virginia

I own a Freshwater octave mandolin that I was thinking about putting up for sale in the classifieds ... now that I know no more will be built maybe mine is worth more now! LOL! 

But seriously ... even if you are protected by bankruptcy laws and legally you get out of having to deliver to customers who have already been paid you would think one's conscience come into play.

If it were me I'd make the instruments in my garage to at least give to those who paid in full and and were already promised instruments. I feel for the small businessmen who go under but there is a such thing as honor.

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## Stephen Perry

Most business people learn the law by blundering into it.  Relatively few do the research to figure out what's what.  Even fewer follow up on what's what.  The bankrupt firm owing $$ to many runs business people and their clients into the law very hard.  

Here in the US, one can perfect a security interest in one's goods held at someone else's business.  I know how to do this, but am not in the business of advising others.  If you're having something built that's expensive, having something worked on that's expensive, or otherwise giving someone else something expensive of yours, it will be useful for you to ensure that, should anything happen, you can relatively easily retrieve what is yours.  

For example, in the US, should one contract (and there should be a written contract) for a custom instrument, one could set up that contract so that the first payment actually purchases the materials for your instrument (identifies them specifically as much as feasible), gives you a security interest in those materials, and is followed by your filing of a UCC-1 with the state.  Then the materials are yours.  You're at the top of the heap with respect to those materials should the firm fall into bankruptcy.  

Even big firms sometimes fail to do this.  In the musical instrument business this type of thing happens, where unsecured trade creditors fail to perfect a security interest and have stuff not yet paid for sold.  With no recourse.  See, e.g., http://www.vaticinate.com/musings/au...brooksmays.htm where some familiar names show up. Note that this site gets a malware warning for me, but I didn't detect or find any.  Look at the unsecured creditors on the right.  When you give someone cash for something to be delivered in the future without any effort to be secured, you end up on the right. 

People good at instruments can easily find themselves out of their depth in the business end of things, and unable to determine whose advice or direction to follow when difficulties occur.  I know several small luthiers who have barely avoided bankruptcy and have been unable to easily figure out how to protect assets sufficient to repay trade creditors.  They've all come through, but had to engage in some creative solutions and work like mad.

Note that my comments above refer to the US.  Please research credit card protections in the US prior to relying on them.

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## michaelpthompson

> If it were me I'd make the instruments in my garage to at least give to those who paid in full and and were already promised instruments. I feel for the small businessmen who go under but there is a such thing as honor.


As Stephen pointed out, there are weird things that come into play with bankruptcy laws. I have no idea if it applies in this instance, but it is possible that any instruments crafted by the business owner would become assets, and assets must be distributed according to bankruptcy laws. So it may not even be possible for him to do something like that. It's a tremendously complex morass and impossible to make any specific comments without more facts.

Sounds unconscionable that the man would continue to promise instruments to people, and even say they are finished and ready to be shipped when he must have known this was on the horizon. But again, we have no real facts to deal with here. It's obvious from the content of the message received by the OP that Dave Freshwater was not allowed to share any information previously, so that accounts for some of it. And although the hope has been expressed here that the business might reopen or he might be able to make good on some of the instruments, the message said the bankruptcy was liquidation not reorganization, which means the bank has probably seized all of his assets and will sell them to recover whatever they can. He must have been pretty heavily in debt with little prospect of paying it off for them to take such action. He mentions no prospect of an instrument at the outcome and offers only the hope of recovering funds from a credit card payment, so I guess there's no real hope of delivery. He'll probably still owe the bank money after the liquidation, so any instruments he makes after that may be required in payment as well.

This is all speculation based on a few words in an e-mail, but mostly to say I wouldn't judge the man too harshly nor exonerate him either, based on the sparse knowledge we have. Too many unknowns.

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## John F

My inquiries so far suggest that Freshwater customers from Canada and probably the US will not be able to recover their credit card payments.  I will be interested if anyone has any other information.

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## P.D. Kirby

Whats unfortunate with things of this nature is, in a already flat market, the folks that have finally gotten to the financial position to commission a build must now question, where 6 month to 1 year lead times are the norm if they are just lining some bankers pocket. I had considered buying from a small builder recently and even spoke to a few. Then not too long ago I was doing some searching to see what all the fuss about Rono Mandolins was and got a rude awaking of the perils of Small Shops. Now I read this thread and I am convinced that I will purchase (new or used) from a dealer that has the Mandolin in stock. I for one can't afford to just throw the money away as was suggested in a previous post.

Mr. Perry is offering some very sound legal advice. Thanks Stephen.

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## Ivan Kelsall

We will probably never know the 'real story' behind the demise of Dave Freshwater's business,i wish we could,it could offer a few pointers in the direction of _'pitfalls to watch out for'_  when building instruments.
   In the UK,filing for bankrupcy has become more widespread amongst people running into financial problems, as a way to escape the burden of debt.
   Until the recent banking crisis,money had never been easier to borrow,with credit companies offering loans with months of 'free credit' & loans of all sorts which resulted in people borrowing more than they can now afford to pay back,due to the change in financial circumstances. It's not rocket science to understand that if you borrow more than you can pay back,when the bank or 'whoever' calls in the loan - you're dust !,but i'd like a £1 UK for every over-stretched business out there right now,i bet that there are 1000's of them just hanging on. The situation has been made infinitely worse by the world wide banking crisis,with businesses hoping to survive by obtaining (further) bank loans which at least in the UK, are simply un-available right now - unless you're a bank that is, :Mad: 
         Ivan

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## Bertram Henze

> i'd like a £1 UK for every over-stretched business out there right now,i bet that there are 1000's of them just hanging on. The situation has been made infinitely worse by the world wide banking crisis,with businesses hoping to survive by obtaining (further) bank loans which at least in the UK, are simply un-available right now - unless you're a bank that is


In times like these when everybody seems to be in debt - even whole countries - I come to think that money is just a figment of our imagination (or computers' imagination), and one morning we will wake up to reality and find that all we got is our mandolins.

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## Stephen Perry

The imaginary nature of money is likely much worse than you realize.  Especially the way money is manufactured by the banking system.  Fortunately the level of reserves required is gradually increasing.  Money with real intrinsic value has generally been flushed out by governments that do not wish to actually encumber themselves with physical reserves.  It does make sense in a general way, but has both an inherent unreality and a temptation to just print more of the stuff.  

Money these days primarily consists of numbers stored in computers.  An odd world.

I've started accepting (preferring) silver and gold in payment.  Gold seems quite stable at an interesting price. Silver at about 40 times less.  For those interested, a wide range of numerical games suggest a ratio of 15:1 is more typical, perhaps indicating an eventual drop in gold or rise in silver is possible.  Regardless, the coin is worth something and serves as a hedge.  I wouldn't go out and buy such things as an investment.  It's like ammunition and tobacco - if bad things happen, one can buy things with it.  

But we're stuck in that digital money world.  

A.  One has to investigate a little.  If a business has no resources now, one might consider not letting that business have your money or other goodies.  Little recourse if there are no assets.

B.  If a business has assets and one decides to do business with them, put things in writing.  

C.  Don't let the business just have your money.  Make sure they have your stuff, that's clearly yours.  If you send in an instrument, photograph it, describe it (serial number etc.), get a receipt from the business specifying that the item is yours.  Be aware than a bankruptcy trustee or other fiduciary will likely consider everything in the business as inventory.  If you're buying something that will take some time to get to you or be made, make sure a physical thing is identified specifically.  As I mention above, picking out the wood and getting paper showing that you now own the wood may well prove useful.  Think of this as if it were a consignment of something already yours.  Imagine your thing simply hanging in the shop with everything else that's for sale, and someone buys the whole shop.  They believe your thing is theirs.  The law will back them up under many circumstances.  You need to be able to prove to the new owner (the bankruptcy trustee or judge, for example), that the thing is yours.  

D.  For expensive things, the UCC filings and other paperwork will prove quite useful.  Think "title" and this will make sense.  Some points here on consignments: http://www.allbusiness.com/accounting/3486374-1.html  Also investigate "bailee liability."

E.  Off the top of my head, I believe CC companies will generally allow 120 days to reverse a charge.  Past that, one seems to be treading in deep water.  And with offshore entities one may well be in very deep water.  I'm not at all sure how to protect oneself.  In this specific matter, if several US citizens are owed money, they might be able to split the cost of further investigation, perhaps securing some stake in whatever division of assets occurs.  I would first investigate the system, the rules, and the specific assets.  If there's no hope, then I'd give up.  But I'd really make sure there was no hope.


I am amazed at how some people will take money and keep it.  I've suffered from similar things, and been barely able to come out ahead, even with apparently proper paperwork.  I've also over reacted and probably kept things I shouldn't have.  I don't feel good about this, but I wasn't nearly as experienced then and possibly overreacted to hostility and threats.  I've found that over communication is generally superior to under communication in matters involving goods and money.  This does place a burden on a very small business.  Nevertheless, in any circumstance a business owes, in my assessment, a duty of honesty to it's clients.  I suspect many of the apparent dishonest things spring from self-delusion, wishful thinking, or a gradual slippage into bad habits, rather than the transition of someone into a "bad person."  Or simply forgetting or getting confused when things in the business get overwhelming or outside events interfere.  Certainly when Gianna was injured I was greatly stretched in getting everything done that needed doing and missed a number of deadlines.

When something starts to come to light I recommend developing a plan after doing some research and investigation.  Usually a sequenced progression of inquiry and pressure works to get one at the top of the heap, or allows one to retrieve one's assets before the collapse.  In other circumstances, a grand slam may be more effective.  The first process server seems to have the most impact.  Having served defendants personally, I can tell you that it does gain some attention!!  

Certainly, threatening legal action informally is not a good path.  It warns the opponent, if one is serious, and more importantly, is rarely followed through.  I have been informally threatened with legal action.  Without considering the merits of the matters, my general response is to immediately sequester the funds at stake or put the items at issue into storage with labels.  To start a file.  And to await arrival of the plaintiff's attorney's first certified demand letter.  At that point, I stop and wait.  I will wait for six years if required to let the UCC statute of limitations run out.  So I do not recommend any form of threat, even something like "I will have my attorney write the so and so" on a forum.  That type of thing might ground the matter very hard, and require some cash outlay to break free.  One of those lines that once crossed proves difficult to uncross.  Actually, my tendency to stand my ground very hard and very quietly has resulted in at least two quick and equitable settlements of matters not of my making that I got sucked into.  Leaving the resulting actions (if any) solely between others, and me out of it.  

In general, I strongly suggest that those doing business with expensive things involved learn the basics of contract law, the Uniform Commercial Code, and the general outlines of bailee liability, consignee liability, and carrier liability.  Joining and using constantly a service such as Prepaid Legal can prove very useful.  Not falling into a hole is so much easier than climbing out of a hole!

In the music business, the business owners I know would recover from bankruptcy and start filling the orders or refunding money as circumstances allow.  That can be a difficult thing, but everyone ultimately ends up OK with the matter.  In contrast, corporations and other non-person entities tend to simply snuff themselves out, with nobody personally taking responsibility.  

This type of thing does happen.  The Brooks Mays example shows the corporate dissolution approach - where bankruptcy liquidation led to substantial loss to creditors - while the Mid-Mo example shows an appropriate personal business approach.  I personally know of two violin shops with different approaches.  One owes a supplier over $20K and simply stopped paying, but remains in business.  I'd have gone after the shop, but this supplier just wrote it off.  The other owed the same supplier $20K, and worked night and day to pay that off prior to closing up shop and moving to another state.  Both were sole proprietors.  Anyone commissioning an instrument might do well to consider which one of those models the owner is following.

Myself, I won't take commissions.  There's too much variability in my business for me to reliably produce things.  I'm working towards changing the business model, but the time being, that's the situation.

Good luck all.

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## Daithio

Finance confuses me (I'm a historian by trade and not much of a theoretician), but I certainly will not try to order an instrument online again.  The internet is great for books, downloading music, even buying computers (Apple seems pretty solvent these days), but I'll only buy an instrument face-to-face.  However, I am also taking a different view than before of Asian factory-built instruments:  the Johnson I've been playing for five years is an infinitely better instrument than the Freshwater that never came.

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## cedartower

I bought a Freshwater cittern a few years ago. Dave said it would take two months. It took a year and when I went to pick it up he offered me a wide necked mandola which he said I ordered because of my big hands. My hands are so small that when I buy gardening gloves I have to buy ladies. He refused to accept that I had ordered a cittern. As a favour he said he could let me have a cittern in three  months; it took six. It was unplayable at the nut end and fretted out at the twelfth fret. I was so pissed off by this time took it and tried to sort it our myself. I'm still waiting for the case for it that I paid £75 for.
The thing that I find odd about the current situation is why people have been contacted by Freshwater Instruments and not the Liquidator? Dave Freshwater crook or incompetent businessman? Your guess is as good as mine.

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## Crieftan

In Scotland a partnership, sole trader or individual is Sequestrated (bankrupt). Only limited companies are Liquidated. 
Has anyone actually checked that he has been made bankrupt? 
The Accountant in Bankruptcy based in Kilwinning maintain records of those made bankrupt and details of their trustee. 
I would suggest anyone with a claim notifies the trustee as soon as possible.

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## Bertram Henze

> I bought a Freshwater cittern a few years ago. Dave said it would take two months. It took a year and when I went to pick it up he offered me a wide necked mandola which he said I ordered because of my big hands. My hands are so small that when I buy gardening gloves I have to buy ladies. He refused to accept that I had ordered a cittern. As a favour he said he could let me have a cittern in three  months; it took six. It was unplayable at the nut end and fretted out at the twelfth fret. I was so pissed off by this time took it and tried to sort it our myself. I'm still waiting for the case for it that I paid £75 for.


That story describes someone who seems to have problems with reality in general. Confusing orders is a symptom raising the question "what else escapes this man's attention on a daily basis?" It appears that now we know.

Since confusing orders normally happens to larger but poorly managed organizations, it also raises the question "who is he and if yes how many?"  :Grin:

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## resophil

A lot of things, some of them emotional, come into play in the business of purchasing a custom instrument...

Customers are sometimes swept away with the idea of buying the instrument of their dreams. Some have not only dreamed, they've worked, saved, considered, researched, e-mailed back-and-forth, and generally invested time, effort and money in the business transaction. But then a lot of people forget that it IS INDEED business...

How many people actually enter into purchasing an instrument WITHOUT preparing a contract? How many people might actually seek out legal advice in preparing such a contract? How many would research, as Stephen suggests, the legal ramifications if something goes wrong? Usually, a customer's efforts are so focused on the joy, anticipation and excitement of the new purchase, that the "business" stuff is swept aside. Emotions trump business sense in a lot of these cases.

Then we come to the actual mechanics of the transaction... How many people would pay a plumber or renovator in full to do a new bathroom for their home, and then expect to wait years for the completion of that bathroom? Yet, that model seems to be the norm in the world of custom instruments... What makes instrument builders different from renovators? It's emotion coming into play yet again!

Potential customers of instrument builders congregate on sites like this one, we natter back and forth about the instruments we crave, we read threads entitled, "My New Fr******* tel Mandolin. Fantastic!!!" and we all pile on with congratulations to the new owner. Once again, it's emotions at play! 

The not-so-long-ago thread that ran for several months, about a talented builder who left a lot of people hanging, and is now hopefully finding his feet again, might have served as a warning to some, but I'll bet that they're lining up again to offer their money as down payments.  Then, if a potential customer proposes a deal which actually protects both sides of a business transaction, the builder will refuse it because he has all these people waiting to throw money at him, hoping to be one of the few who can get a mandolin, and get it quickly. Our host allowed that thread to run for as long as it did because he stated that he had had more complaints about that one builder than any other in his history hosting this site.

I was a contractor for many years. I strived to give my customers great service and prices. Not every potential customer hired me, just as I told some people that I was "too busy" to do their work after talking to them and doing my due diligence about them... (Yes, I "fired" the customer!) When I hire someone (and I've ordered custom instruments myself...) I do my due diligence before I think about the emotional side of purchasing. But then I may be different; I tend to think of my instruments as tools.

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## Darryl Wolfe

> In times like these when everybody seems to be in debt - even whole countries - I come to think that money is just a figment of our imagination (or computers' imagination), and one morning we will wake up to reality and find that all we got is our mandolins.



+10

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## Crieftan

Further to my post above this is the website of the Accountant in Bankruptcy http://www.aib.gov.uk/

They will be able to explain the process to anyone who is worried - but first of all they will be able to confirm if he actually has been sequestrated.

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## fscotte

> This is the first I've heard--he didn't send me an email.  Perhaps it's coming.  I'm more than a little angry about this.  He strung me along for 2 1/2 years.  That was about 800 bucks lost.  There wasn't anything I could do from across the ocean.  He probably won't answer, but his name on here is *Stringer*.



I think the nickname should have been a warning sign.  As in, I'm gonna string you along all the way...

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## Daithio

fscotte,  Yes indeed!

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## cedartower

> I'm sorry to hear this.
> 
> Freshwater operated from a town only about half an hour from me, but curiously I have never met him.  
> 
> There was something about last winter having been very bad in Scotland given as a reason for a delay on one of these threads.  I have to say I wasn't convinced by that at the time, and I wondered if all was well. 
> 
> It is embarrassing to have a Scotsman letting people down in this way, though as Bertram points out he probably feels the worst about it.  That's obviously no consolation to those who have been affected though.
> 
> I hope most of you will continue to find 'the Scotland symatico'.


Dagger, Dave Freshwater wasn't Scottish.

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## John F

> Dagger, Dave Freshwater wasn't Scottish.


That much was clear in a telephone conversation.

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## brunello97

> It is embarrassing to have a Scotsman letting people down in this way, though as Bertram points out he probably feels the worst about it.  That's obviously no consolation to those who have been affected though.
> 
> I hope most of you will continue to find 'the Scotland symatico'.


No worries, Dagger, our enthusiasm for "all things Scottish" is hardly curbed. But, as a Texan who shares Natalie Maines's pain, I know where you are coming from. But in our case the torture never stops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrQxQPG8JdE

Mick

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## CES

Stephen, I agree with your post completely, but it saddens me very much to do so.  I truly wish an agreement and a handshake were still enough...further pontification deleted...

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## Ivan Kelsall

From *cedartower* - _"Dave Freshwater crook or incompetent businessman ?"_. Without a FULL understanding of DF's current plight,it's very hard indeed to attribute either appelation to the man.Certainly in your case,there's a definte incompetence,but was his real intention to deceive ? - we don't know. We can however extrapolate your situation,& say that if this happened to other people,then his reputation would have suffered & he'd have lost business. Maybe our 'Cafe colleague David Gordon ( or others of the Scottish persuasion) would kindly keep an eye (ear) open for further information in the Scottish news. I have to say that unless DF is found to be an out & out crook,then he has my deepest sympathy,incompetence or not,some of us are born that way,we can't help it !. That doesn't mean that i'm not also sympathetic with those who've had fruitless dealings with him. As i said in my first post - it's bad news all round,but only by knowing the true story will we have any understanding of what's happened. Mere 'supposition' isn't ever a good thing, :Frown: 
                                                      Ivan

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## Crieftan

Folks

The best source of info about banruptcy (sequestration) in Scotland is the Accountant in Bankruptcy (see my link in a previous post above)

If someone is bankrupt, as Freshwater states in his email, his whole affairs will fall under the control of a trustee (a professional person) and this person will be able to give you details of how to make a claim against his estate

DF will no longer have a say in anything relating to his business - he answers to his trustee. He like most bankrupts he should be more than happy to tell you who this person is as it will stop folk contacting him for answers. If not then that would raise my suspicions as to the veracity of his status.

For his sake I hope he is telling the truth about being bankrupt. If not it may be verging on a matter for the police to investigate.

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## Stephen Perry

Crieftan makes a very important point.  Those who believe DF owes instrument or refund either need to, must, should go through the proper channels or simply let whatever they've put in disappear, and ideally never bring the matter up again.  Should the Accountant in Bankruptcy not have records on this matter, then a different path for recourse would be possibly worth pursuing.

In matters here in the US, I have never found that anyone telling me they were bankrupt as an avenue out of difficulties actually showed up in the legal system as having filed.  We would always check immediately to avoid spinning our wheels.  

Again, following the legal system's rules are essential in resolving such matters.  My personal tendency is to work on legal matters behind the scenes.  

Good luck, all.

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## Dagger Gordon

Quote    "Maybe our 'Cafe colleague David Gordon ( or others of the Scottish persuasion) would kindly keep an eye (ear) open for further information in the Scottish news."



As I said, Ivan, I don't know the man at all and the only place I have heard about this is here.  

I have seen some of his instruments over the years, but I have made it my policy not to comment directly on a public forum about the work of individual makers as what I am looking for in an instrument may not be the same as other people and perhaps any unfavourable comments from me might unfairly put potential customers off, which I wouldn't want to do.  

I do, of course, have my own views on his instruments and I am aware that some people seem to be very unhappy both with their dealings with him and with his actual instruments (before the business closed).  I think it is fair to note though that he does also seem to have had a number of satisfied customers judging from comments made on the Cafe. 

But I don't have any more information really.  I also don't wish to be seen as 'kicking a man when he's down' when I really have no involvement in this sorry saga.

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## Stephen Perry

Pardon me for butting in again, but I wish to reinforce Dagger's points and my own.

First, nobody in Scotland is in any better position than anyone else to check with the cognizant authorities.  It's not really fair to ask others to follow up.  

Second, the affected parties have a duty to act if they wish a resolution other than the default.  That action needs to be in the appropriate venue.  This is not the appropriate venue, especially now that the business seems closed.

Finally, the "facts" in this matter are hardly proven, and they cannot be proven here.  This discussion reads more like gossip than a fact-based inquiry.  

Some here have been directing the curious intermeddlers and affected parties to appropriate actions and venues, while suggesting methods of avoiding such problems in the future.  I urge the affected to quietly pursue the real process.  Gossip generally does nothing but muddy the waters and usually ends in hurt feelings all around.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming.  Perhaps it will include real facts about the situation with Freshwater.  It certainly doesn't need to include speculation or gossip, in my assessment.

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## Daithio

Is there anyone in the UK who would be interested in checking the register of insolvencies?  It requires a registration, and while the form accepts a long list of countries, it does not recognize American ZIP codes as postal codes. The notion that liquidation happens to limited companies makes me wonder if his email is truthful. Nowhere on his website (I checked cached versions) or on my order receipt was he identified as a limited company.  If we can know that his business has failed then at least we know something.

This is the link:  http://roi.aib.gov.uk/roi/

Thanks

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## ccravens

> Gossip generally does nothing but muddy the waters and usually ends in hurt feelings all around.
> 
> Back to our regularly scheduled programming.  Perhaps it will include real facts about the situation with Freshwater.  It certainly doesn't need to include speculation or gossip, in my assessment.



While your idea about the situation is certainly accurate, and I pretty much agree with all you said, don't underestimate the power off letting off some frustration that this forum provides for those who have lost money and/or instruments, or both. After what they've been through, I have no problem with allowing them at least this measure of satisfaction (especially since they may never get anything else!) in blowing off some steam. As long as libelous statements are kept out, I have no problem with it. In what other forum could they discuss shared problems with a specific luthier/businessperson? This forum serves an important function in that respect.

I also appreciate the fact that this may serve as a warning to others who already ordered instruments and are just now finding out info on the situation, and/or finding out for the first time that there are others in the same boat. Also for those who have thought about, or might think about an instrument purchase from this individual in the future, should such a situation ever arise. I haven't seen anything yet here that rises to the level of libel. One man's "gossip" is another man's much needed information or warning.

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## Marc Berman

> Is there anyone in the UK who would be interested in checking the register of insolvencies?  It requires a registration, and while the form accepts a long list of countries, it does not recognize American ZIP codes as postal codes. The notion that liquidation happens to limited companies makes me wonder if his email is truthful. Nowhere on his website (I checked cached versions) or on my order receipt was he identified as a limited company.  If we can know that his business has failed then at least we know something.
> 
> This is the link:  http://roi.aib.gov.uk/roi/
> 
> Thanks


You can register by just leaving out the postal code, it's not required. I couldn't find any listing for Dave Freshwater or Freshwater Instruments.

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## Stephen Perry

> While your idea about the situation is certainly accurate, and I pretty much agree with all you said, don't underestimate the power off letting off some frustration that this forum provides for those who have lost money and/or instruments, or both. After what they've been through, I have no problem with allowing them at least this measure of satisfaction (especially since they may never get anything else!) in blowing off some steam. As long as libelous statements are kept out, I have no problem with it. In what other forum could they discuss shared problems with a specific luthier/businessperson? This forum serves an important function in that respect.
> 
> I also appreciate the fact that this may serve as a warning to others who already ordered instruments and are just now finding out info on the situation, and/or finding out for the first time that there are others in the same boat. Also for those who have thought about, or might think about an instrument purchase from this individual in the future, should such a situation ever arise. I haven't seen anything yet here that rises to the level of libel. One man's "gossip" is another man's much needed information or warning.


I don't mind facts.

We used to check fora, facebook, everywhere when assessing an opponent.  Very interesting things came up, most useful for us in assessing and otherwise dealing with the opposition.  Just something well worth keeping in mind.

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## Daithio

Marc,

Thanks--I need to pay attention to asterisks.  I couldn't find anything either, under Freshwater or "Fretted Folk Musical Instruments," which is the name on my order receipt.  I don't know where else to look from this distance.  If Freshwater has indeed failed then so be it, but I'd like to be assured that he actually has.  

David

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## Ivan Kelsall

My sincere apologies to* David Gordon* if he was thinking that i was asking him specifically to 'report back' on this issue - i wasn't. It's only the fact that sometimes,snippets of 'local news' appear on TV or in newspapers. The demise of the 'Sound Control' music stores hit the local news in Manchester,both on TV & in the newspaper. I was thinking that if such a story were to appear on Scottish TV or in a local Scottish newspaper,it might offer some factual information,
                                                                                                                Ivan

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## Dagger Gordon

No problem.  

But as yet I have only heard about it here.

Dagger

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## theCOOP

duh.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Hi David - The probability is that it won't make the news in the same way that the closing of the "Sound Control" chain of stores did.
Mr.Freshwater was a 'lone builder',whereas SC employed 100's of people in their stores,
                                                                                                                    Ivan

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## Noahs Warning

I've spent some time on the site listing Scottish Insolvencies (mentioned above), using different names for the business, address and even searching over the span of dates that I imagine would include his own insolvency: nothing.  The register, when I checked was up to date for 24th June, I supose it possible that the registration has yet to be included in the database.

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## Daithio

I notice in the listings for personal bankruptcies that there is a lag time between filing and posting.  The company listings don't offer a date search, but I'd think the same would be true.  I don't know how to find out any other way.  It would give me some peace of mind to know I lost the money through failure and not fraud.  There was never an indication in any of my dealings with him that his workshop was organized as a company.  I'd think the failure would have to be personal.  Don't British companies have to be designated as "Ltd" or "plc" or something?

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## larsjohanssonblank

Hi,
I've too have been waiting for a FW cittern ordered march 2010, and I share the same story as many others (everytime I spoke to and e-mailed Dave the answer was "a couple of weeks") until the bankrupcies mail arrived.
I'm going to try to reclaim the money from my credit card company but a couple of questions arise:
Who is the trustee? 
Nobody here has seen Freshwater on the site listing Scottish Insolvencies, what does that mean?

If anyone has some more information to share please do this here.

/Lars - from Gothenburg Sweden

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## Ivan Kelsall

From *Daitho* - _"Don't British companies have to be designated as "Ltd" or "plc" or something ? "_. They do if they have 'shareholders'. Dave Freshwater would be most likely considered as a _'sole trader'_,a totally different animal,subject to different trading laws & tax regulations & with very different liabilities. There's lots of info.on the I'net re. British Co. structures ie.Sole Traders / Partnerships / Limited Liability Companies (LLC's) etc. 
                                                                       Ivan

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## Jazz Ad

I'm disappointed to see this but I can't say I'm surprised.
I ordered a mandocello from him 3 years ago. Great phone contact, too much phone contact actually. A bit pushy, so to say.

I'm in France and he called me 3-4 times while I was thinking about ordering, then 4-5 other times during the building.
I've had interesting conversations with him but all the time I couldn't help thinking, shouldn't he be busy building? Phone calls are expensive.

Delivery was expected to be 2 months, it took almost a year with a lot of unrealistic deadlines given and poor excuses.

I would not say he's a crook though. It's obvious that he's got passion for his craft and tried to give the best.

He cut corners in the wrong areas IMHO. His instruments are good, with just a bit more attention to finish they could have been great and sold for 300-400 more.

So yeah, bad management and hard economic times killed his business.
I'm still happy with my instrument and it's always a joy to play it.

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## Crieftan

Folks - it is official. David Freshwater has been declared bankrupt as of 11 August 2011.	 Anyone owed money should get in touch with the undernoted: -

Case Ref: 2011/12677

Trustee details
Date appointed: 11/08/2011
Name: Rosemary Winter-Scott
Company Name: Accountant In Bankruptcy
Address: 1, Pennyburn Road, KILWINNING, Ayrshire, KA13 6SA
Phone number: 0300 200 2600
Email:	AiBenquiries@aib.gsi.gov.uk

Trustees Agent: Lynne Flower
Company Name: KPMG
Address: Department 811, 191 PO Box 26967, West George Street, GLASGOW, G2 9DX
Phone number: 0141 300 5888
Email:	aib@kpmg.co.uk

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## Mandotorious

Thanks, Crieftan. I contacted both people parties you listed, and the first one referred me to the second, so it appears that Lynne Flower is the one to get in touch with.

You all can add me to the list of sad stories: I paid in full for my octave mandolin in September 2009(!), and have been hearing Freshwater's stories about couriers and heavy frost ever since then.

M

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## Crieftan

Sorry to hear that Mandotorious - hopefully you might get something back.

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## Mandotorious

Don't know if anyone's still following this story, but I've got some traction in my efforts to get my money back, and I want the same to be true for many others in my situation. So here are three things that have happened:

First, using the info Crieftan provided above, I eventually got in touch with Lesley Alexander, the person who is in charge of Freshwater's bankruptcy case. Her email address is Lesley.Alexander@kpmg.co.uk, and if you're owed money by David Freshwater, I'd strongly encourage you to get in touch with her. She emailed me back with the proper form to fill out, and today I received a snailmail from her firm showing that my name is in their records as one of Freshwater's creditors. They're still sorting everything out, but his debt to me is at least one of the things they'll sort.

Second, I emailed Freshwater himself explaining my disappointment at having lost both money and mando, but also sympathizing with the loss of his business. I basically wanted to keep on good terms in case he became solvent again and found himself in a position to make reparations. (Also, I genuinely felt bad for him. Maybe he had turned out to be a swindler, I guessed, but you could tell from his instruments that he loved making them. And whatever he had gained, losing that would be hard.) Anyway, as is his way, Dave called me back on the phone the next day. I was teaching, but he left a voicemail stridently insisting that no one was going to lose any money. He sounded angry at the insinuation that he was a crook. He encouraged me to get my credit card people on the case, because he wanted me to get my money back.

Third, I got my credit card people on the case. At first I talked to them on the phone, and they said that I was out of luck because there was no written contract, but I emailed customer service again after hearing Freshwater's voicemail and suggested that it _must_ be possible for me to get money back from someone who _wants_ to give me a refund. They transferred the issue to another department, who promised to investigate it. And a few weeks later, I received a credit on my account for the full amount of the mandolin while they continue the investigation. (That was a surprise: I paid for this instrument two years ago and never carry a balance on the credit card. It was like free--but tentative--money.)

Light at the end of the tunnel? Dunno. But at least there's a tunnel, and at least I seem to be moving in the right direction.

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## Ed Goist

Mandotorious; I applaud your stick-to-ativeness, and the general manner you have gone about this.
Well done.

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## allenhopkins

> ...Dave called me back on the phone the next day...he left a voicemail stridently insisting that no one was going to lose any money. He sounded angry at the insinuation that he was a crook...


Haven't heard the word "crook" brought up, just an over-his-head business owner who promised product he couldn't deliver.  No one seems to think he set out to swindle people, only that as his situation got more serious, he continued to take deposits and payments, and promise delivery of instruments that he was unable to produce.  As a result, I'd be surprised if some of his creditors didn't have to settle for a percentage of what they're owed -- _i.e.,_ "lose money."

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## Mandotorious

Thanks, Ed. Allen: your characterization of David Freshwater as "an over-his-head business owner" matches my impression of him exactly.

M

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Before we all speak negatively about how bad "shark-businesses" can be, one might ask, whether we have gone mad to entrust others with our well-earned money in these times of hundreds of insolvencies per year. We are quick to think and talk of Mr. Freshwater as not being good at business. But are we, ourselves, any good? We have to remember that we hardly ever deal with friends, though most instrument builders seem to be nice people with best intentions. If we buy a costly instrument, the first thing we might want to consider is looking at what kind of company we are dealing with. A good ol' privately owned business is different from a private limited liability company. At this point already, we should be aware that we are at the risk of losing money. (This is, to some very little degree, already a bit like trying to make a fast dollar at the stock market - one might lose.) But if we still decide to do business with this company, why don't we stand up and argue for our own idea of the terms of payment. Why don't we ask for a declaration of surety at the local bank? They gladly take over the risk, and they sure know how much the fee should be. We shouldn't complain and just blame it all on that "shark-luthier" with questionable business ethics. If we do, we are like children not responsible for themselves. The world sure feels nicer (and tends to bring people closer together) with most deals being done with a handshake and without a bank declaration of surety for any few hundred dollars. I usually prefer the handshake, but I'm well aware of the risk. 
Henry (pipe organ maker)

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## MikeEdgerton

Every day instruments are ordered from luthiers in this country and elsewhere around the world and if the history we have here on the cafe is any indication, the vast majority of them are delivered within a reasonable amount of time to happy customers. I can pull up (but won't) 4 names of builders that for whatever reason caused problems for their clients. Two of them are still building. Of those, three were people that for whatever reason got in over thier heads and one, for whatever reason is still building sought after electrics and apparently stiffing a few people now and again. You have to question the business practices of all of them but the vast majority of the luthiers building that we are seeing are honorable people that are doing what they should be doing.

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## allenhopkins

Very good points, Mike!  It's also instructive to look at *this current thread* about problems with eBay, where Scott T has adduced data where the site admits to a .5% rate of "fraudulent transactions."  Now, with eBay's huge volume, even a relatively low rate of fraud produces a very large number of frauds, an issue that any eBay patron should be concerned about.

But in the relatively limited world of mandolin luthiers, I'd guess there's a minuscule rate of actual, intentional fraud.  There are clearly mandolin builders who are less than totally reliable and scrupulous about their business practices, but this seems generally attributable to attempts to "bite off more than they can chew" in terms of taking orders and scheduling deliveries.  A small business, a self-employed craftsperson like a luthier, must make hay when the sun shines (boy, lotsa cliches today!), taking orders when orders are available, and just trying his/her best to meet the demand.  It takes quite a while to become an established and respected luthier, who can say to a customer, "Have to put you on the waiting list; you'll get your mandolin in two years, but I need a deposit *now* to hold your place in line."

Henry E also advocates doing some research with regard to a luthier's business record -- but so many times the "record" is a series of testimonials from satisfied customers: "I ordered a mandola from Sammy Sprucefingers, and it was delivered six months later than he originally promised, but it's a wonderful instrument and I love it!!"  We're willing to forgive a lot of unbusinesslike behavior, if we finally end up with a well-constructed mandolin at an acceptable price.  That may well be just as it should be, but in an extreme case like Freshwater's, seems a fair number of people are left holding the bag, or at best a possibly uncollectable bankruptcy chit.

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## Hendrik Ahrend

We should call ourselves very lucky that delays in filing for insolvency or even fraudulent bankruptcies seem to be rare in the world of luthiers. Those things shouldn't happen, and in many cases - as it appears, Freshwater included - the luthier is to blame to a very high degree. Unfortunately, whenever insolvencies occur, some parties are left high and dry. And I agree with all of you, this can be very annoying, whether it hits a supplier of wood (e. g.) or us "end-users". So basically, I absolutely sympathize with a certain closing of ranks of the betrayed, and I don't even mind a sermon here and there. Also, I have no intention to turn the tables on the customer. Precautions for everything would make my life dull, and awareness of my own responsibility and residual risk might even contribute to an adventurous life (well, to some degree). I'm glad I have a choice - in most cases - and freedom can be tough at times.
Henry

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## Tavy

Just curious, but how common is it for luthiers to ask for payment up-front?  I woundn't dream of asking for payment up front for a repair, heck, if I'm not completely happy with the result I don't ask for payment afterwards either - but then I'm a lousy business person  :Wink:   Generally speaking we wouldn't pay a builder for a house extension up front - maybe stage payments if it's a long job - so why pay a luthier up front for something that isn't built (or even started!) yet?

Curiously yours, John.

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## Hendrik Ahrend

How about a look back to Europe 350 years ago for comparism? If you wanted to purchase a valuable custom made instrument (like a pipe organ), you'd have to pay one third when the contract was signed and another third when the building work started (or various sums throughout the project). The remaining sum was payed after the work was done. This custom basically hasn't changed: Due to today's relatively low material costs, the down payment is only 10 to 20 % today. No more than 50 % down payment is what I heard from different mandolin makers. Compared to that, vintage instrument dealers tend to be way more careful towards us responsible citizens.
Henry

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## Bertram Henze

> Just curious, but how common is it for luthiers to ask for payment up-front? ... Generally speaking we wouldn't pay a builder for a house extension up front - maybe stage payments if it's a long job - so why pay a luthier up front for something that isn't built (or even started!) yet?
> 
> Curiously yours, John.


I guess there is the point of sharing the risk - the luthier might never finish, or the customer might suddenly change his mind and leave the luthier with a custom job nobody else wants. 
Risk-sharing strategies have been around for ages, but they all live or die with continuous evidence to support the trust, i.e. the customer dropping by on a regular basis to see how things are going and thereby demonstrate his own constant interest in getting the item. Our modern remote communication and delivery world has made this part of business more difficult. E-mails and pictures are but poor substitutes.

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## Bill Snyder

Tavy, I think for a custom instrument a down payment is reasonable, especially if the instrument in question has something about it that makes it very personal. The luthier wants some assurance that the customer will actually purchase said instrument when it is completed. The question is what constitutes a reasonable down payment.

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## allenhopkins

Heck, I sometimes get a deposit for a musical gig, just to make sure the person booking me is serious and is willing to reserve the date and time, so I won't take another job that might come along.

Luthier has to purchase materials, and as Bill S states, the purchaser may request unique features that could make the mandolin hard to sell on the general market.  Not uncommon for contractors to request a percentage "up front" if they have to purchase materials and supplies.

It's similar to the "earnest payment" in real estate transactions as well: a demonstration by the purchaser that he/she can be counted on to complete the transaction.  In the case being discussed, however, it was the luthier who apparently couldn't be counted on!

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## Mandotorious

Wow. Didn't really mean to rekindle this thread, but it looks like I have. I think everyone who's posted recently has made good points that help to map the risks and practical wisdom of buying from small, independent luthiers (or merchants of any kind). 

In my case, I still don't think that my trust in Freshwater was ill-founded. Based on all of the evidence I had at the time, he was a bit of a character but a reliable luthier. And since then I have had no positive evidence that he has done anything wrong. It certainly seems that he did: circumstantial evidence suggests that he lied to me repeatedly about the state of the instrument. But I don't know that for sure. Nor do I know whether he was the victim of circumstances beyond his control. 

So I'll err on the side of trust, because I think that's a better way to go through life. (Although it might also be why I am not a wealthy man.)

The loss I most regret: two years worth of music that I could have been playing on another instrument! And he can't give me that back. I can make more money, and even trust can be re-gained. But time goes away for good.

M

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WaxwellHaus

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## marticus

hi all, this is my first ever post but i felt i had to comment on the above.
last year i was contemplating the purchase of a mid priced octave mandola having played guitar for years and messed around with a mandolin. i considered several but narrowed it down to either a freshwater or a paul hathway as recommened on an other forum. reports of his time scheduals put me off a bit, though i thought if it was going to be that good it was worth waiting for.
my head was turned when i encountered a hathway mandolin at whitby folk festival,the sweetness suited my ear so much and so i contacted paul hathway and within weeks had my ceder top octave. i have never looked back and i woulndt swap it for a gold clock! i feel lucky that i didnt invest time and money on an instrument that never arrived as it would have broke my heart. thanks for reading this, mart

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## Bertram Henze

> The loss I most regret: two years worth of music that I could have been playing on another instrument! And he can't give me that back. I can make more money, and even trust can be re-gained. But time goes away for good.





> i feel lucky that i didnt invest time and money on an instrument that never arrived as it would have broke my heart.


This time angle is not to be underestimated. Time is limited, it can be converted into money, but not vice versa. The time of waiting must be added to the price to make options comparable. At the end of your life, all the mandolins of the world won't buy you another minute.

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## guitarmandoguy

I'm way late to this discussion party, yet wanted to add some belated comments on this entire topic. I'm a Freshwater octave mandola owner, and a very happy one at that, _once I got the correct instrument in my hands (more on this later)_. I, too, suffered the agonizing wait for my mandola for 9 months, after a promised two-month delivery date. A wrong octave mandolin (not the requested shorter mandola) was delivered, so I had some headaches and lengthy discussions with Dave Freshwater about that exchange. Explanations for delays echoed the comments of others. But first my good reviews on my Freshwater . . . I absolutely love my Freshwater Octave Mandola (acoustic/electric). Someone elsewhere said of a Freshwater instrument, it has "oceans of sustain." It resounds with beautiful sound, and playing it is as soothing to me as petting a loudly purring cat, or more like petting a rumbling, large Bengal Tiger. I still marvel at the fun I have in simply strumming light chords in a quiet room . . . marveling at the forever resonance emanating from it. I tune this mandola to an open D tuning (ADAD) and the combination of that tuning and the oceans of sustain out of the instrument, have led me to compose a surprising number of original tunes, continually surprising me in the process. The instrument itself has some cosmetic imperfections (much like me, come to think of it...), but all is forgiven when I start playing the thing. I own a Taylor 910ce guitar, which is a lot more expensive instrument than Freshwater's mandola, and yet I play the Freshwater 90% of the time that I leisurely play, while the Taylor draws me only 10% of my time. Despite my agonizing wait for this beloved instrument, I've seriously considered ordering another one, but would want to specify that I wouldn't pay more than half of the cost up front, until delivery, but I'm not sure Dave would go for that. Lastly, I ordered a solid spruce top on my mandola, but a solid spruce top did not arrive. I called Dave on this and he explained that my octave mandola top was made of a special "Mojo Wood." I Googled "Mojo Wood" and found . . . nothing. It looks like a cedar, or even a mahogany top (or some such wood) but I asked my woodworking father-in-law if he recognized the wood. He said it definitely wasn't cedar or mahogany, and yet wood expert that he was, he couldn't name the wood. Whatever the top is, I love the sound that reverberates from it, and if anyone else can clue me in to "Mojo Wood" I'm all ears. This post is already getting too long, so I'll submit and possibly revisit my interesting experience in finally securing my Freshwater Octave Mandola. In conclusion, for about $900 I got a mandola that is way beyond any octave mandolin (or mandola) that I've ever played in any music store, which correlates with one of Dave Freshwater's sale's pitches . . . that you're getting a heck of an instrument for half the cost, but the insufferable wait drives many customers nuts (me included).

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## Brent Hutto

So you fronted all the money, waited a long time, got an instrument you didn't order, waited a while longer and finally got an instrument that still isn't exactly what you ordered. And beyond that, he won't even tell you what kind of wood he actually used instead of what you paid for.

But the instrument you finally ended up with, even though it's not as ordered, sounds real good so you're ready to do it all again?

Unbelievable. As in I literally find that impossible to believe. Sorry to be blunt.

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## guitarmandoguy

Well, bluntness and unbelievability aside (along with all logic), yes, that's it in a brutal nutshell. I can't deny it. I may sound like a shill for Dave Freshwater, but I'm not. I'm just laying out my particular experience and honest thoughts. I regretted fronting all of that money (I wouldn't do it again), but I was lucky enough to not get burned. I purchased my octave mandola based on my friend's experience in buying a Freshwater Octave Mandolin a couple years before mine. By utter dumb luck, I emerged out of my own complicated Freshwater fiasco with an octave mandola that I really, truly enjoy. A Bob Dylan song verse comes to mind . . . "I can't help it if I'm lucky" (from "Idiot Wind" I believe...). I've learned a lot from all of the previous posts and from my own Freshwater experience, and have learned to be a much more careful online instrument shopper in the future, should I ever venture out in to that untamed wilderness again.

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## allenhopkins

> ...I may sound like a shill for Dave Freshwater, but I'm not. I'm just laying out my particular experience and honest thoughts. I regretted fronting all of that money (I wouldn't do it again), but I was lucky enough to not get burned. I purchased my octave mandola based on my friend's experience...I emerged out of my own complicated Freshwater fiasco with an octave mandola that I really, truly enjoy...


But your experience, and the (pardon my saying so) somewhat starry-eyed testimonial you provide after being treated in a pretty unbusinesslike fashion, really illustrate the problem of "checking out a builder's record before making a contract or sending money."  As I wrote in Post #79 above:
_Henry E also advocates doing some research with regard to a luthier's business record -- but so many times the "record" is a series of testimonials from satisfied customers: "I ordered a mandola from Sammy Sprucefingers, and it was delivered six months later than he originally promised, but it's a wonderful instrument and I love it!!" We're willing to forgive a lot of unbusinesslike behavior, if we finally end up with a well-constructed mandolin at an acceptable price._

It's quite admirable to be trusting and forgiving, but in the end Mr. Freshwater apparently has a number of customers who sent in deposits, got a string of excuses and postponements instead of the instruments they ordered, and may well end up losing their money, getting no instruments, and, as also pointed out above, wasting time waiting for mandolins that will never come, when they could have been playing mandolins purchased from "reliable sources."

So, glad you have an instrument you like, but your story doesn't make me feel any better about Mr. F or the overall situation.

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## Bertram Henze

This recent story confirms my suspicion that some people experience the suspense of waiting as quality time, to the extent that the imagined instrument to come is more thrilling than the real instrument when it arrives. If it turns out to be the wrong instrument, then - hurrah - another ecstatic cycle of unfulfilled longing starts...

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WaxwellHaus

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## fergmaun

I have a Irish Bouzouki by Dave Freshwater I got in May 2007.  I am very happy with it since I got it.  

You will have to use  guitar capo with this bouzouki.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ki-photo&#39;s

Sorry to hear this workshop has closed down

You can see photos of my Bouzouki at the above link.

Cheers

Ferg

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## John F

Back from three months in the UK where I found a Freshwater octave mandolin/mandola in the Music Room, Cleckheaton in "as new" shape.  It almost makes up for the one I had on order and it has become my favourite instrument.

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## belbein

> Giving money in advance is always a risky thing, and business risks are not abstract accidents happening to other people: they mean you


I shall make my comment and move on to ORFs and JPEGs, while I get flamed in absentia as I always am on this subject. 

	This story is a tragedy for everyone.  I'm sorry for everyone who lost money, or lost their business.  Its also an object lesson.  
	In every agreement, theres the risk, as Mr. Henze says, of problems.  To not acknowledge that is the height of childish arrogance.  The way adults handle risk is to talk up front about each sides risk and how to make everyone secure.  This can be resolved in a simple one page contract that could be ginned up in 30 minutes.
	Luthiery is a business.  It should be dealt with as a business by all parties.  Even though thats not nice and not friendly to think about contract terms and delivery dates and progress payments, and even if Id rather not ever build another mandolin than to have to deal with contracts (as one of you angrily told me in a prior discussion) this is a business and should be dealt with by all concerned as a business so that this kind of loss is mitigated. 
	In the world of commerce, in my opinion, its CRAZY for someone to pay 100% of the purchase price to a maker/builder/producer before hes driven the first nail.  Its as crazy in luthiery as it is in commercial construction.  Its C-R-A-Z-Y.   I don't care if, as some have said, it's traditional in this world.  It's crazy.  And it should change, for everyone's benefit ... particularly the luthiers' benefit.
	So this story--and the one before it, and the one before that, and the ones on this site and on other sites and in various magazines and in various consumer complaint websites--all prove the absurdity of that kneejerk parrot response: "Don't badmouth."   When someone asks a question or expresses their sense that something's not right, they're doing the right thing.  And every time the "don't badmouth" birds start cawing, it mutes the people who might dare to ask timid little questions like Hey, does this sound right to you? or Should I be worried?  And that means that the even quieter folks who are just reading along while they're thinking of doing business with that company, aren't going to know what they should know about a big-money decision.  

The complete impotence of the "Oh we all love music and so we're all brothers and don't need no stinkin' contracts" philosophy is proven by the fact that this story happens over and over and over again.  And nearly every time the loss was preventable or manageable, had everyone only acted like an adult. 

Now, just feel free to flame away.

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Bob Clark, 

David Rambo, 

doc holiday, 

fatt-dad, 

John McCoy, 

Rob Zamites, 

WaxwellHaus

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## belbein

> This time angle is not to be underestimated. Time is limited, it can be converted into money, but not vice versa. The time of waiting must be added to the price to make options comparable. At the end of your life, all the mandolins of the world won't buy you another minute.


I completely agree: "Time value of money"--and money value of time--is usually the thing that people forget to take into account.

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## Pete Jenner

> I shall make my comment and move on to ORFs and JPEGs, while I get flamed in absentia as I always am on this subject. 
> 
>  This can be resolved in a simple one page contract that could be ginned up in 30 minutes.


Ishmael, does the contract have to be ginned or would another spirit be an adequate substitute? Could I for example have a contract vodka'd up?

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## Mike Snyder

I'm thinkin' that might Scotch the deal.

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## belbein

Whether it's ginned up or scotched up depends on how cosmopolitan you are.

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## O'Riabh

I must have been one of the last customers to receive an instrument from Dave, my Octave Mandola. It's dated 17/11/08 gulp!!

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## Killian King

nevermind

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## Jeff Mando

Not to sound like a horse's patoot, but is there a such thing as an organized, prompt, on-time, quick, ahead of schedule luthier/repairman?  I once had a telecaster in for a refret, it took 15 months to get the guitar back.  Nice job, too.  BUT, it could have been completed in 3-4 hours if the guy just sat down and did it!  Seems to be a trend.  A disturbing one.

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## Jstring

Well, I've used Lou Stiver (western PA) a bunch of times for mandolin work... His work is great, prices are cheap, and he never takes longer than a week to return my instruments... 

It seems like we focus on the horror stories, while most luthiers are honest and hard-working....

Of course, we all tend to do this in every aspect of life, don't we??

I sure feel bad for those who gave this guy money and didn't get an instrument...

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## Jeff Mando

> It seems like we focus on the horror stories, while most luthiers are honest and hard-working....



Right you are!  I don't mean to sound like I'm talking about the fine members of the Cafe, of course!

Reminds me of a joke my late father liked to tell.  A guy is cleaning out the closet and goes through the pocket of his old suit and finds a shoe repair ticket dated 1946.  Well, the repair shop was still in business, so the next day, the guy goes by the shop, just for a joke, and presents the repair ticket.  The owner goes in the back room and comes back, "They'll be ready NEXT TUESDAY!!!"  LOL

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Jstring

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## Bertram Henze

> is there a such thing as an organized, prompt, on-time, quick, ahead of schedule luthier/repairman?


The one who does my refret jobs is. Maybe that's because I'm creating the right impression...  :Whistling:

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## Andrew Faltesek

Many of us are Craftsmen. I do not use the term lightly. We decide to take on projects for persons based on good faith and a desire to make them satisfied with our work within an acceptable timeframe and cost. You can do one project at a time from small to large scope and deliver it satisfactorily to the client; or take on several jobs and juggle them, hopefully making everybody happy.

You can decide that your commercial endeavor was ill-managed...but you cannot ignore the responsibility of the specific commitment you made to any client. If demand exceeds your capacity, then ongoing you have to be honest with prospective clients about expected completion time or cost. I see few reasons that a Craftsman cannot procure materials and complete builds as promised aside from the will to uphold his end of the bargain. If the promised calculation was faulty, then there is either a negotiation, or you work for less than you planned.

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## David Houchens

I'm not familiar with Freshwater's product or business practices. But as to being on schedule;
 I build new instruments as well as doing repair. My main goal is building new instruments. Though I do stay fairly busy as a repair person. What irritates me is when I'm booked up and people insist on leaving their instrument even though I explain it will be 2-3 months before I can start on it. It never fails, within 3 weeks they call to see how its going, is it ready, or how much longer its gonna take.

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## Bernie Daniel

> I'm not familiar with Freshwater's product or business practices. But as to being on schedule;
>  I build new instruments as well as doing repair. My main goal is building new instruments. Though I do stay fairly busy as a repair person. What irritates me is when I'm booked up and people insist on leaving their instrument even though I explain it will be 2-3 months before I can start on it. It never fails, within 3 weeks they call to see how its going, is it ready, or how much longer its gonna take.


I don' know a thing about the Freshwater thing either but I sure recall with this thread and related ones came up a few years ago.

I do think those kind of calls that would be annoying.   Maybe in those cases you should take to writing on their ticket -- this repair will not be even STARTED until such and such a date!  :Smile:  

Just to reinforce the point made by others -- over the years I have dealt with a number of luthiers/repair folks and some do over commit  (or in some cases have other interests that compete for their time in the shop).  This can result in so pretty long (even unreasonable) delays and some irritation.  

Typically, I will only go through that once with repair person and then it is on to someone else for me.  I deal with a few folks here in this part of Ohio who are almost always right on time with their high quality workmanship.

Sometimes, if it merits, they will even call you if they are running behind and the work will be delayed. I'm good with that.  Like the song says  "ya gotta shop around".

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## Tavy

> Not to sound like a horse's patoot, but is there a such thing as an organized, prompt, on-time, quick, ahead of schedule luthier/repairman?  I once had a telecaster in for a refret, it took 15 months to get the guitar back.  Nice job, too.  BUT, it could have been completed in 3-4 hours if the guy just sat down and did it!  Seems to be a trend.  A disturbing one.


While 15 months is clearly unacceptible, if you think you can do a decent refret in 3 or 4 hours then you may need to redfine your concept of "hour" somewhat  :Wink: 

I guess the first rule must always be "keep the customer informed"... which reminds me of something I need to do...!

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## Petrus

And avoid shops with these sorts of signs hanging on the wall.  :Grin:

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## Gerry Cassidy

> Many of us are Craftsmen. I do not use the term lightly. We decide to take on projects for persons based on good faith and a desire to make them satisfied with our work within an acceptable timeframe and cost. You can do one project at a time from small to large scope and deliver it satisfactorily to the client; or take on several jobs and juggle them, hopefully making everybody happy.
> 
> You can decide that your commercial endeavor was ill-managed...but you cannot ignore the responsibility of the specific commitment you made to any client. If demand exceeds your capacity, then ongoing you have to be honest with prospective clients about expected completion time or cost. I see few reasons that a Craftsman cannot procure materials and complete builds as promised aside from the will to uphold his end of the bargain. If the promised calculation was faulty, then there is either a negotiation, or you work for less than you planned.


Amen! I am seeing a common happening on the wonderful worldwide web, and this isn't just instrument makers. It's covers a gamut of small shops that get their "15 Minutes of Fame" on the internet. Orders go through the roof, prices go way up (way too much in many cases), and then, in the ensuing months the disgruntled customer feedback starts showing up on the forums, and websites.

As a person, I believe in free enterprise, profit motive, and the right to start a venture as we would please. As a consumer, I also REALLY enjoy being able to purchase from a wonderful artist/builder/craftsman in a one-off, small town, cut-the-hype way. 

In my own experience, I have noticed a common thread that a wonderful, friendly, and incredibly talented luthier isn't necessarily a good businessman. In fact, I have met folks that, in my own estimation, shouldn't be running a business at all. It makes a very good person look like a bad person. It's really not fair to all involved. 

Hopefully these horror stories we see will become a thing of the past as folks get a handle on their businesses. I think we all will benefit.

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## Paulb19

I can beat that - 20.02.09! Also an Octave. I had no idea of the problems people were having - just that he hadn't been well (he's since passed away). I'd asked for electrics but it arrived without. The instrument was sent back to Scotland and within 2 weeks came back as ordered. Lucky me!
I'd also had a tenor mandola a couple of years before - pear wood, cedar and ebony!

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## Dagger Gordon

I must say I do find it very peculiar that this thread has been revived after so long when you know that Mr Freshwater has passed away (some time ago).


Why?

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