# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  What is Irish Mandolin?

## mikeyes

No, this is not one of those philosophical posts that asks to have the undefinable defined, I am just curious to see why anyone even thinks that there is an Irish (I won't use the work Celtic, which usually means Irish anyway) style of mandolin the way there is with fiddle, banjo, accordion, whistle, etc. 

My interest has been raised by several issues on this board. 

First, where are the "Irish Mandolin" CDs? In Bluegrass, Jazz, Choro, even Klezmer you can find a number of CDs that are still in print and thriving. Those that are out there are by members of this board (and Mick Moloney) most of whom are not Irish citizens. I say the latter because there seems to be no impetus in Ireland to develop a critical mass of mandolinists and develop a cadre of expert mandolin players. I don't think there is the interest there the way the banjo (or bouzouki) has caught on. The players most often named are only part time mandolinists and are better known for playing larger coursed instruments.

Second, What is distinctive about the existing use of mandolin in Irish music? To me it seems like it is neither fish nor fowl, there are banjo like triplets, occasional homage to fiddles and other instruments, but nothing that strikes you right between the eyes as "Irish mandolin.". The musicianship on such efforts as Dan B.'s "Shatter the Calm" is superb but I get the impression that he is developing a lot of the style on his own and is not influenced by other Irish mandolin players. (Dan, you might comment on that observation.) I listen to Simon Mayor and I say, "Man, this guy is good!" but he does not seem to have antecedents either (he acknowledges this) and he is playing in keys I don't recognize as belonging to the tunes.
So far, it seems that the mandolin is a stepchild to Irish music.

Third, and this is a correlate of the first issue, most of the elite level mandolinists seem to be in North America. (Not that there are that many.) This is probably natural since the vast majority of mandolin players reside in the States and Canada - the proof, since we don't have real numbers, is the existence of a viable mandolin industry driven by bluegrass but encompassing makers, recordings, and live shows plus this list and Co-Mando.
Will Irish music on the mandolin develop here instead of in Ireland? There are plenty of sophisticated influences available to a mandolinist in NA that could help such an effort. If you want to listen to one of these, get the Gaelic Roots album and listen to John McGann playing his set, killer stuff!

So my question boils down to "Where is the mandolin style in Irish music?" It doesn't seem to be in Ireland, so are we developing it in NA without knowing we are? If so, how can we encourage it and make it wonderful?

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## danb

Well, the use of the mandolin and tenor banjo both date back to around the 19-teens, and probably a bit after that even. I would put forth that there isn't as firmly established of a "way to play Irish Mandolin" as there is a "way to play Irish Uillean pipes", simply because it hasn't been used in Irish music as long.

Then again, you'll soon find there is a "Clare style", a "Donegal Style", a "Tyrone Style", a "North Dublin style", and soon you're down to naming individual players. Irish music is about organic variety and regional flavor. I think you'll find that's basically the secret to it, at first it looks like there is a style but soon you are faced with a group of unique players cross-influencing each other, and none of them is divisible into a "person playing generic Irish mandolin".

And sure, on my disk a lot of the stuff is my own tricks, but I'm not really being particularly inventive. 

"Creativity is a function of the obscurity of your source matierial"

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## mikeyes

Dan,

I like your "stuff", just like I like Mick Moloney's, Roger Landes', and Simon Mayor's stuff. My question as to whether an established style (or even an evolving style, which is more likely) is hampered by a lack of enough role models. I postulate that the reason for such is that most Irish music is played in sessions and the madnolin is lost in a session and as a result there are not a large number of sessioners playing the mandolin. Subsequently there are not enough people to generate a critical mass of players (in both senses of the word, there is very little, if any, critical viewing of the few records that we have and there are not enough mandolin players to generate any heat or light.) Also there are few stage performers who feature the mandolin alone. 

I went back into the archives and looked at the comments from performers. There is no doubt that there are master mandolinists playing Irish music. It's just that I never get a chance to hear them play and that is probably true of a lot of ITM fans. 

The banjo has been in Irish music (on a performance level) since the '60s according to Mick Moloney, and now you can't swing a cat without hitting a banjo player.   But the banjo is loud and raucous, the antithesis of the mandolin, and can be heard in a session just like the whistle, accordion, flute, fiddle, and even the zouk (because of the lower range) while the mandolin is possibly the only instrument that is swallowed up.

I think that there is a lot of potential in the mandolin and that it is not being utilized to its fullest because of these factors. With today's instant communication, it is unlikely that regional styles of mandolin will evolve. It hasn't happened all that much with the banjo (except possibly for London)and most regional styles have been hallmarked by one or two master players in each region who epitomise the style. To that extent we have the Milwaukee/London style (Dan B.), the Philadelphia style, the New Mexico Style, etc. 

The banjo may be the culprit. Most of the "Irish mandolin" courses that I have attended have been given by banjo players, some of whom did not play the mandolin. The banjo has special qualities that are not shared by mandolins, and vice versa. &lt;rant on&gt; It is time to throw down the shackles of the banjo and to fly on our own! &lt;rant off&gt; 

I am not saying that there is no style, just that it is hidden way back in a corner and needs to come out. This group may be the one to do it via sharing of ideas/mp3s/critiques and supporting each other the way the bluegrass mandolinists seem to do.


Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## jmcgann

Actually, within "Irish mandolin playing" there are already a wealth of different approaches, which is a great sign.

The King and Queen of Irish Trad are the fiddle and pipes, though flute players may disagree  I think it is REALLY important for mandolinists to not become "inbred" by copying each other, but to keep an open mind and keep an ear out toward (i.e. seriously study) all the deep traditions on those "other" primary instruments. I've based my own playing very much on trying to emulate what I hear the fiddlers do (and to a lesser extent pipes, accordion, flute etc.).

We'll never be heard much in a session, but in a concert hall with microphones, and a good sound person, and in the recording studio, all becomes equal!

Also, it is interesting that many of the great trad recordings were indeed made in the USA, many by native born Irish players, but some by Yanks like my pal, the accordion wizard Joe Derrane...recordings that were very influential in Ireland.

Mike, thanks for your kind comments!

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## Bob DeVellis

Style is tricky. I guess I think of style as residing in the music rather than the instrument. If you accept this premise (and many won't), then the issue for the instrument becomes how to capture the musical style, given the nature of the tool. There are many reasonable ways of tracing the evolution of melodic expression in Irish music and I'll offer one, recognizing that I'd have a very hard time claiming that it's the only version or the most correct one. But with that acknowledged, here goes:

I guess I think of the "style" as having arisen in sean nos singing, using the original "instrument," the human voice. The elaborate melismatic ornamentation is, I think, a hallmark of the Irish style. Pipers came along and captured aspects of that style through the use of a series of devices (crans, rolls, etc.) that suited their instrument and captured the gist of the vocal renditions. Fiddlers, did likewise, with the additional influence of the pipes. Many fiddle ornaments resemble pipe ornaments, and that's no accident. Whistles, flutes, concertinas, etc. were all arguably doing their versions of the same inherent style, adapting as the demands of their particular instrument's limitations dictated. Banjo, unlike the fiddles and wind instruments has little sustain, so rather than drawing out a note through melismatic embellishment, sustaining the note through the use of triplets seemed to be the way to go. Thus, triplets became a distinct element of Irish banjo. By the time banjos came on the scene (at least by the time they became popular in their current guise), rhythm had become more structured than it was with the free-flowing sean nos and early uillan pipe styles. So, an additional contribution a banjoist could make was to help establish a solid rhythm. This turned what might have been inherent limitations (a sharp tone with little sustain) into an asset. So, the banjo captured some of the established elements of Irish melodic style and added a percussiveness that few other instruments could match -- something old and something new. In both cases, the feel of the "Irish style" was accommodated to the strengths and weaknesses of the instrument, just as it had been with other, earlier instruments that found their way into the music.

So, with mandolin, what works and what doesn't? A mandolin can do some banjo stuff and some fiddle stuff, but only some. The sustain of the fiddle isn't there nor is the percussion and volume of the banjo. But many of the "classic" melodic ornamentations that make music sound Irish are readily available on the mandolin. One thing a mandolin can do better than a fiddle, pipes, or perhaps banjo, is play chords. Problem is, chords haven't been warmly embraced by Irish traditional music (probably because the earliest, most quintessentially Irish instruments couldn't produce them very effectively). So, if one wants to play Irish music, there may not be any obvious reason to gravitate first to the mandolin. Sure, it can get the job done, but there are other instrumental options that can also work. Why the mandolin?

As Mike suggested, most mandolins used in Irish music are in the hands of either (a) multi-instrumentalists who play Irish music and have decided to see how it works on mandolin, or (b) mandolinists who play in multiple genres and have decided to see how it would work for Irish music. I think I regard the first group as having a more distinctly "Irish style," not surprisingly. Mick Moloney's playing sounds very Irish to me and I find that whether he's playing banjo or mandolin doesn't seem to matter that much with respect to the feel of the music. When I pull tunes from his No Strings CD to play on mandolin, I find myself more often pulling banjo tunes than mandolin tunes. He tends to favor a more courtly repertoire for mandolin whereas I like to play dance tunes. The other group (mandolinists who've decided to explore Irish) often mix their primary musical type in with the Irish pretty heavily. The strongest case is the Steve Kaufman Celtic Workout series. Although I'd be thrilled to have a fraction of his musical abilities, that music has never sounded convincingly Irish to me. It sounds like a bluegrass player giving Irish a go. Likewise (ducking for cover now), Simon Mayor, who is a brilliant musician, doesn't sound convincingly Irish to me. Bluegrassers bring a rhythm and harmony to their playing of Irish that, to me, diminishes its Irishness. Mayor's playing has a classical sound that I don't associate with Irish dance music, although it's great music in its own right.

So, we have one group of musicians who use mandolin but really don't seem to be cultivating any particularly "mandolinistic" interpretations of the Irish repertoire, and another group who may be adding some new twists (a more articulated rhythm and use of harmony) that the Irish traditional community is slow to embrace. (As an aside, my less-than-astute perception of Scottish and Cape Breton music is that a sharper rhythmic articulation is an element of both and that harmony is well accepted at least in the latter. That may be why more of the "Celtic" mandolinists around seem to be from Scotland and the maritimes than Ireland.) Result: No new input to Irish music attributable to the mandolin. The mandolin hasn't left a distinctive stamp on the music as have other instruments.

Personally, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Some players (Michael Kerry comes to mind) seem to be able to "keep it Irish" while using the mandolin as their mode of expression. Others (OM and 'zouk players come to mind) have broadened the use of subtle harmony in a way that doesn't alter the Irishness but does bring something different (if not essentially mandolinistic) to the music. True, the former may not be breaking new ground and the latter may have done its ground-breaking with something other than the standard-sized mandolin, but the music we have as a result is very nice.

Irish traditional music is inherently consevative. Bringing something new to a genre (like "mandolin essence") is inherently progressive. The two are not mutually reinforcing. But they don't totally cancel each other out, either. I find that there is a certain type of pull-off that Irish mandolinists (or rather, mandolinists playing Irish music) use that may evolve into a distinctively mandolinistic yet traditional form of ornamentation. It sounds different on a mandolin than it does on a fiddle, whistle, or pipe. Simon Mayor actually does this sort of thing alot and I wonder if other, more traditionally-oriented players may have borrowed the technique from him but use it in a different way. I have a CD by a young Prince Edward's Islander named Elmer Deagle and he uses this type of pull-off to good effect on some cuts. His stuff ranges form more traditional Irish-sounding stuff to full-bore, piano-accompanied, Canadian Celtic to pop acoustic. But in places, the music is convincingly Irish and, to my ear, distictively mandolin-based. So, there may be some younger players out there that are laying the seeds of an "Irish mandolin" style.

I've gone on way to long, so I'll stop. Thanks for your patience.

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## zoukboy

Speaking from my own experience it is very easy for the mando to get lost in sessions. I think that many people who might otherwise want to play it opt for the louder tenor banjo, which also has the advantage of sounding an octave lower. I have even come to prefer (sacrilege!) playing TB in sessions over the mandolin because people can hear me. Fiddlers especially seem to be more able to discern the TB from the mando and I can only wonder if it is the difference in range.

I lead a small session here in Taos with several novice players who really need to hear me. I started the session on mando and it was a struggle to get them to hear me. I switched to banjo and it works much better now.

Part of the Irish trad aesthetic seems to be what works in sessions. If an instrument seems too soft (or too loud) it doesn't catch on, doesn't gather a constituency of players whose efforts would come to be identified as "the Irish mandolin style."

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## Dagger Gordon

Roger,

Regarding the difference in range between banjo and mandolin: I certainly find the banjo is more effective than a mando in a bar session, but I find the mandolin to be better than a CBOM (at least for melody playing).

Some interesting comments from everybody.

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## zoukboy

> Roger,
> 
> Regarding the difference in range between banjo and mandolin: I certainly find the banjo is more effective than a mando in a bar session, but I find the mandolin to be better than a CBOM (at least for melody playing).


Yeah, I hear ya. I first gained proficiency playing tunes on mandolin before transfering a lot of what I learned to the bouzouki, and then going from there, acquiring other, zouk-specific techniques that I feel even better suit Irish trad music.

As far as whether a mando or a CBOM is better in a session, I think it depends on the instrument. The zouk I've been playing the last few years is louder than any mando I've heard in a session.

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## EdSherry

In my experience, there are very few "role models" for "Irish mandolin." #Mick Moloney is (IMHO) still "the man." #Marla Fibish just taught a (very good) class in Irish Mando at the Lark in the Morning music camp. #

But a lot of "Irish" mando playing is (as others have said) applying tenor banjo technique to the mando, which is a bit problematic given the physical differences between the two (scale length, double-course vs. single string, preferred pick -- most TB players I know use a very light pick to make the triplets easier to play, which I find doesn't work well on mando). #

And, of course, TBs are loud puppies that cut through a session better than most mandos (especially the Gibson round-hole A-styles that are the preferred "weapon of choice" among most of the Irish mando players I know).

But I (generally!) prefer not to go over to THE DARK SIDE and play TB. #I much prefer the sound of mando in Irish music. #(Silly me.) #At sessions, it helps that I have a pretty loud mando (one of the first Flatiron F-5s, with a nice "woody" tone) and I'm not afraid to play hard.

I agree that the aesthetic in Irish music is for "lead" instruments not to play rhythm, but I sometimes use two-note dyads on my lower strings as backup/rhythm. #I haven't run across a lot of others who do it, but it seems to work OK.

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## Dagger Gordon

John makes a good point when he differentiates between sessions and stage and recordings.

Sessions are fun for what they are, but they aren't everything. It's worth remembering that other significant Irish instruments like the harp aren't best heard at a session either, but the harp is still one of the main instruments I think of in Irish music.

It's a question of using it when you can. If a session is too noisy, then by all means play banjo, rhythm mandolin etc just to join in and have some fun.

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## danb

> I like your "stuff", just like I like Mick Moloney's, Roger Landes', and Simon Mayor's stuff. My question as to whether an established style (or even an evolving style, which is more likely) is hampered by a lack of enough role models. 
> (...)
>  To that extent we have the Milwaukee/London style (Dan B.), the Philadelphia style, the New Mexico Style, etc.


heh, well before you go naming us for our cities too quickly, I should point out that I had a lesson with Mick back in the early 90s, and Roger & I are good friends who have played together often over the years and influenced each other. I think it'd be pretty big-headed of me to claim to have a Milwaukee-London style, I just have "the Beimborn muddle" which includes learning tunes and tricks from Roger, playing with Kevin now & again, some new stuff I've evolved from other instruments or invented while hunched over a mandolin, etc.

But you know, this is probably where our two points merge. This is a very interesting point- basically that I think once you really start investigating there is much less consistency than you think. This music is an oral (or aural, more appropriately) culture, which has variations but common themes. Just like storytelling, fables, etc.. no one person can claim ownership of it, and to prove your point.. there are only really vague styles. I can teach some of Roger & Mick's tricks, but they can teach them best, and vice versa.

Amd as far as this "you can't hear the mandolin" stuff, c'mon guys, try an F5.. for me...  Sometimes people complain they can't hear the accordian when I play an F5 at an Irish session

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## danb

> The banjo may be the culprit. Most of the "Irish mandolin" courses that I have attended have been given by banjo players, some of whom did not play the mandolin. The banjo has special qualities that are not shared by mandolins, and vice versa. &lt;rant on&gt; It is time to throw down the shackles of the banjo and to fly on our own! &lt;rant off&gt;


hah, I get you alright. A lot of banjo players whip the poor little things to death with super-heavy pickstrokes, no dynamics, and too many triplets picked right on top of the bridge. I swear you can see sparks fly sometimes. They can make a mandolin sound like a shrill angry little banjo, a chiuaua instead of a labrador 

Keep an eye peeled- Roger's zoukfest always has a great mandolin undercurrent, and I've occasionally snuck in a mando class in at festivals. Tim O'Brien teaches some very nice Irish stuff too I'm told, as do many fine players.

I think the main thing the banjo players who dabble with mandolin miss out on are dynamics (playing softly sometimes har), chords/double stops, some of the more delicate pull-off ornamentation styles (which work on banjo, but picked triplets are soooo temptingly easy once mastered), the occasional chop chord thrown in to make someone jump, and some of the bluegrass/american influences like alternate tunings, syncopation, cross-picking, etc.

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## Avi Ziv

> Speaking from my own experience it is very easy for the mando to get lost in sessions.........
> .......Part of the Irish trad aesthetic seems to be what works in sessions. If an instrument seems too soft (or too loud) it doesn't catch on, doesn't gather a constituency of players whose efforts would come to be identified as "the Irish mandolin style."


I agree with Roger. Although my experience is much more limited, it's been fairly consistent in several sessions over the past few years. For all mandolin players that I know, this is a problem. Maybe the sessions are too large. Maybe they are too loud. Maybe the acoustics are bad. Still the fact remains the same. The sound gets mostly lost. I envy Dan's volume and the respect he apparently gets from other musicians at his sessions but I dare say that his is experience is not the norm.

Apart from the volume there is the related issue of tone. Even if we can be heard - the tone is more like shouting than singing, if you know what I mean. Maybe people get used to it and it may even become a new standard for Irish mandolin tone but it's not always pleasing. This is what happened to Cajun singing. Without amplification, the singers had to yell to he heard and now it's a style even with microphones. To my ears, the sound of a properly amplified mandolin (like major bands use in performance) is a lot more pleasing and balanced than mandolins in sessions. They don't have to shout.

I love mandolins, play mine every day, and it's still my main session instrument. I did not come from a banjo background, but lately I started experimenting with the TB and I can see playing more of it at our sessions.

The mandolin is not the only instrument that is drowned in the session. If a guitar player wants to play the tune (not backup) can he/she be heard? I doubt it. Same for a harp player and how about the low D whistle?

Wouldn't it be nice if the sessions developed the same respect towards (and interest in) the mandolin as they do with singing? Why not stop once in a while, sit back and listen to a mandolin tune, as we do with the occasional song? I know - singing is at the core of Irish music and mandolin is not. I have to say, though, that the song breaks are a good place to show how nice a mandolin can sound, and I do it by providing some drones and counter melody figures around the singer. It can work well and people appreciate it.

Sometimes I think of mandolins as closer to finger-picking guitar players - more of a solo performance, with very small group. Once in a while, when only 3-4 people show up at the session, I feel like my mandolin is contributing nicely to the overall sound. I know, I know - people always tell me that I'm heard more than I think. Still....you know...

Avi

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## Rick C.

Get a National. They'll hear you.

 

 Rick

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## danb

there's a certain sort of F5 (my ex lebeda was a good example) that will out-cannon a national. There is a pretty big reluctance to play F5s in the Irish world. They are a lot more expensive (for good ones) which I think is a big part of it. Trad music wasn't music of the wealthy, so it's evolved into part of the vibe almost to have a threadbare instrument. But seriously, you can be heard on an F5 in a jam without even having to thrash the poor thing too hard

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## Roger Mace

IMHO typical Irish session music stems from the pipes, accordion, whistles, fiddles, flutes and instruments that can make continuous tone (not plucked. The continuous tone from bags, bows, bellows and blowing can facilitate and are essentinal for the rolls, crans, cuts, etc. that make the music sound typical "Irish" in nature - regardless of regional style. Triplets and grace notes are about the only ornaments that comes close on mando and triplets can't even be done on pipes :-(

The guitar family - if you will - seems best used as a back up and harmony instrument - even if you can hear the triplets (not counting solos - just sessions). And when they try to flatpick or use rock/OT chords - they ususally quickly find the exit door....

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## EdSherry

At one session I play in Berkeley, there was a fellow who used to flatpick melodies on an old National Tricone guitar. He could make himself heard. 

But I agree with other comments that many (not all) mandos get "drowned out" at sessions, which discourages mando players from playing them at sessions (and encourages people to take up TB instead so they can hear themselves). 

I fully agree with the suggestion to get a mando with adequate volume if you're going to play sessions. It need not be an F-5; I have a couple of nice A-5 style instruments that work very well.

As for getting people to quiet down so that one can hear the mando, at one of the sessions I go to I end up leading waltzes and airs on my mando -- a nice change from a relentless string of jigs and reels.

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## jmcgann

One sad (?) fact is that in the Irish tradition, the fiddle never does anything but play melody- there is NO concept of "accompaniment" or "backup"...indeed, with few exceptions, no harmonic concept whatsoever, and in fact, among the real hardcore, chords are barely tolerated!

Now that younger players are getting exposed to the incredible world of rhythm and grooves that fiddlers like Darol Anger can play, perhaps down the line we'll see a time where guitarists and mandolinists who play melody will be give space to do so rather that The Evil Eye.

At present, the Melody Players* shall remain Gods and Be Unyielding of the Limelight. If you are lucky YMMV 

* Thee Fydlle, Pipes, and Flute. Thee Accordion Also Recieveth Second-Class status unless Deade (Cooley) or Offically Sanctioned Pedigree of Trad Certificate Bearinge. Thee Self-Appointed Bearers of The Pure Drop shall Notte Tolerate Hybrid! (_ hey, I'm just as bad- my worst nightmare is to sound like a bluegrass player 'moonlighting' in Irish music!!!_)

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## Rick C.

Dang,

 Not only do I have to learn the tunes but now I gotta decode Chaucer...

 "Deade" accordion players, LMAO!

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## mikeyes

I think it is important to keep up this dialogue on the state of the Irish mandolin. #For one thing, the contributers are often a who's who of musicians in the field and a lot of ideas can ber batted around and developed. #In addition, we can learn where the venues are for learning face to face (e.g. Zoukfest and later on maybe one of the big mandolin festivals)so we can exchange ideas and hear what is new and interesting; #Why let the BG players have all the fun (of course most of us started out that way.)

It is rare that you get an "inside-out" view of an evolutionary process llike the Irish mandolin. #(I could give you the inside dope on the Irish nose flute. #I seem to be the only serious practitioner. #but I can't do much with it as in sessions people laugh, for a second, and they they tell me to stop because they are disgusted. #What is a musician to do?)  

I use an F-5 in session too, mostly because of its volume and the fact that it is the best mandolin I have. #It sounds OK but I end up with the TB half the time. #On stage, however, it is magic sometimes because it is much more versatile than the TB and can be used like a bouzouki for chordal and counterpoint, like a banjo for some percussive tones, and like a mandolin for a unique sound. #I don't use triplets all that much but do use double stops, slides, pull-offs, etc. #Of course, the mandolin is my first instrument and I have played it for 30 years. #My TB playing is really a sub-set of my mandolin playing with some triplets thrown in. #IF you watch John Carty play (you can see videos at Banjosessions if you search the archives and look at the tenor banjo articles. #He uses a lot of mandolin type licks that are tasteful and different from the GO'C style. #Of course, he is a fiddler and a flutist also.)

Exchanging ideas, videos/mp3s, and meeting periodically will help the effort a lot. #Just like the BG players!

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## jmcgann

John Carty! What a fabulous musician (on so many instruments too!)

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## mikeyes

John Carty (his initials are JC, think about it) does not play the mandolin because of an accident that cut off the very tips of some fingers on his left hand. He can play the fiddle and the banjo with little trouble and he incorporates all sorts of neat stuff in his playing. Here is a video of John Carty playing a tune. Just page down until you see it.

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## danb

> One sad (?) fact is that in the Irish tradition, the fiddle never does anything but play melody- there is NO concept of "accompaniment" or "backup"...indeed, with few exceptions, no harmonic concept whatsoever, and in fact, among the real hardcore, chords are barely tolerated!


To me, the hardcore are barely tolerable 

A separate can of worms to the current, but the attitute of what is and isn't hardcore or proper in a session goes against fun and joy with such vigor that it has been chased out of Irish sessions all the way over to America!

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## danb

Hey Mike,

If you don't mind the drive down to Milwaukee, I'm over to visit family fairly often and we can hook up some time. I'm sure you already know to make it down for Milwaukee Irish fest. If you attend the summer school (or just show up for the sessions) you'll find there are more than just a handfull of players.

I'd also add Dervish to the list. Mandola & Bouzouki mainly, but seamus plays a mandolin in the sessions after the gigs usually!

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## Dagger Gordon

I can't deny that Celtic usually means Irish to many people, but I have to point out that Scottish music is not the same as Irish, although it can certainly be similar. 
It was interesting that in the (apparently) ill-fated 'Glass Slipper' Irish mandolin project by Aidan crossey, there were more contributors from Scotland than Ireland itself (and several from the US). 

A second point is that the approach to the instrument itself is possibly different in Scotland than Ireland. Dan made a comment in some thread (can't remember where) that he thought most Irish mandolinists were primarily banjo players (correct me if I'm wrong Dan) to which Kevin and myself pointed out that we identified ourselves as mandolin players who also played banjo.

I suspect that is also true of Ian MacLeod, Gary Peterson and others. #

Perhaps a small observation, but I think quite a telling one.

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## danb

I'd call myself the same thing.. Mandolin first, banjo after. Interesting that you mention Gary as a mandolin player first- His speed and ornament fluidity sounds more like an Irish tenor player to me. One of my all-time favorite players.

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## Dagger Gordon

There is an interview with Gary on mandolin.org.uk where he discusses his different approach to mandolin and banjo.

There are other interviews as well, including Simon Mayor, Luke Plumb and myself.

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## arbarnhart

Irish mandolin? Would that be one made by someone with a good Irish name like Michael Kelly?

 running, ducking and hiding...

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## Clyde Clevenger

I learned most of my Irish tunes from a piper, Todd Denman, almost thirty years ago. We played in a band together for three years and Todd would always bring a new "gem" to practice. I didn't have the hand speed to play most of the orniments, only a few triplets, but I learned his rhythm and the pulse of the music. He alway said I had to think like a piper, think in phrases, not individual notes or even measures. I've been playing regularly for step dancers for almost thirty years now, often just solo mandolin and seem to please even the stud dancers. I quit trying to go to sessions as I have seen the "cold back" too many times and even a big ugly guy like me can be sensitive.

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## Ken Berner

Clyde, Cold back, cold shoulder, cold eyes; all too cruel for the lover of the music. Not all can be "hot" pickers and some with the cold parts aren't all that hot, either. Guess we just have to grin and bear it; take it with a grain of salt.

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## jackofall

jmcgann sums up a whole lot of it.

Fiddle and pipes are the real core of ITM, and pretty much all other instruments are johnny-come-lately by comparison. The trad approach is mostly unison melody, with minimal harmony or accomaniment. With that in mind, whatever is perceived as the 'correct' or 'definitive' style for any instrument in ITM other than the big two sacred ones is open to debate. 

Tin whistle players (of which I am one) emulate pipe techniques such as rolls, cuts, crans etc. Purists often advocate using these techniques to separate notes and to execute triplets rather than tonguing (when you go 'tuh tuh tuh' to separate notes as you blow) because it keeps the effect closer to that of uillean pipes.

Similarly, tenor banjo and mando players (I play both to a modest level) emulate many fiddle effects and techniques - again, the trademark Irish triplet is the example. In the case of these two instruments the unlimited sustain of the fiddle has to be achieved by tremolo - therefore a distinctive banjo/mando sound emerges.

I will prolly get flamed for this, but in Irish music the techniques for tenor banjo and mando are really very similar. There are variations due to obvious differences in string tension (drop GDAE on tenor banjo is VERY slack indeed) and tone, but generally the starting point for both is to try to approximate what a fiddle does.

Mike's question is a bit can-of-worms because Irish music is not just ITM. The mandolin is also used extensively in Irish and Scottish (Celtic) folk music. And then there is the no-man's-land in between, where people like Barney McKenna of The Dubliners thrive - traditional tunes played in a style that varies from the 'pure-drop' approach.

Barney is largely responsible for defining most people's idea of Irish banjo, and this has been achieved just since the 1960s. Similarly, Irish mandolin is a relatively young, and evolving thing.

If I had to sum up Irish banjo and mandolin I'd say they are fundamentally a way for fretted instrument players to pluck along with fiddle tunes. Anything over and above that is still in flux, and very much a matter of personal interpretation.

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## danb

I still say "pure drop" is just an invention to disguise an opinion of what is best as a cultural truth, but there you are

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## Dagger Gordon

Jackofall,

You may well think fiddle and pipes are the real action, but I don't think you could say the harp is a 'Johnny-come-lately'.

The harp has been known in Ireland from around the 12th century, and O'Carolan lived from 1670 to 1738.

I like the sound of the mandolin and harp, and in my own playing I sometimes go for a harp-like feel. My extra bass D on my Sobell 10 string mandolin is a help there.

We also share the fact that we are not heard at our best in a session situation.
What sometimes is referred to as 'Celtic' guitar (usually a fingerstyle solo style as opposed to rhythm guitar) seems to tend toward the harp repertoire a lot, but I rarely see much mention of it here.

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## mikeyes

We have a harp in our session group now and indeed, the combination was very nice along with fiddle. Our harper only plays O'Carolan and a few airs for now but it sounds great as does harp, guitar, and mandolin accompaniment of a song. 

I think that that points out the versatility of the mandolin. I do have to question the statement that banjo and mandolin are indistinguishable as far as technique goes. Triplets are OK on the mandolin but they don't have the impact of a triplet on the banjo. In addition, the mandolin is a double coursed instrument with a lot more tonal power than a banjo but less volume. Banjos can't sound sweet the way a mandolin can and the use of double stops, chord effects, and certain "rolls" done by hammeron-pull-off combinations is harder to do on the banjo. They are two distinct instruments that require different fingering and a different mind-set.

Of course, the way a lot of banjo players who are not mandolin players use the instrument is quite limited in my opinion as there are transfers of technique from mandolin to banjo that make the banjo sound better. The reverse is not as true mostly because there are very few techniques used by pure banjo players after you get past the triplet. Gerry O'Connor uses crosspicking, speed picking, and several other techniques derived from electric guitar (at least according to him when I talked to him about it.) That is how he achieves the sound and drive that he gets. He also uses cgda tuning and a capo which helps him quite a bit. Look at this Youtube cut of Bela and Gerry and note that he is capoed at the second fret. You could get the same energy and presentation on a mandolin in standard tuning, but not on a banjo in GDAE tuning.

Dagger,

I was listening to the Scottish style mandolin on the site you mentioned. I like it!

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## danb

Banjo and mandolin are vastly different in technique. You can get a basic sound using banjo technique on one, but it just then sounds like a banjo that's higher pitched

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## jackofall

> Banjo and mandolin are vastly different in technique. You can get a basic sound using banjo technique on one, but it just then sounds like a banjo that's higher pitched


You see that's where the 'newness' of the two to Irish music comes in. It is likely that both of them started off tring to play fiddle parts. What are now becoming accepted as distinct Irish banjo technique and distinct Irish mando technique have been emergent as the qualities of the two instruments have become more widely recognised.

I was clearly remiss in neglecting harp. To be honest I rarely see harps in sessions in Ireland, and I have *never* seen one in a session in England! I guess they may be less portable, and there are probably fewer players these days.

Certainly one less since the passing of Derek Bell...

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## jackofall

> I still say "pure drop" is just an invention to disguise an opinion of what is best as a cultural truth, but there you are


Hmm... noe THAT one is a debate for the chiff & fipple whistle board - if you have a hard hat handy. I nearly got crucified for saying something like that once...

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## danb

That's my litmus test for wether or not a session is ever worth coming to again. Drop that one and see who goes white with rage- those are the people generally to avoid

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## danb

Probably the nicest instrument duet sound to my ear is banjo & accordian or banjo & pipes. Stacatto & legato together.. 

arguably gerald trimble created quite a bit of what has now become mandolin technique in this sort of music with his cittern/bouzouki recordings. A lot of that technique transfers more readily to mandolin than banjo stuff.

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## Paul Kotapish

Dagger's right about the harp, and some zealous traditionalists argue that beyond the harp and the human voice and perhaps the bones, all the other instruments are latecomers. 

Although I've been attempting to play tunes of Irish lineage on the mandolin for about 30 years now, I long ago gave up the idea that I was playing actual "Irish" music. I've had the opportunity to play with some great fiddlers and pipers over the years, and two things became clear to me at some point. First, that the mandolin would forever remain a bit of a novelty instrument, and secondly, no matter how hard I tried to emulate the rhythmic pulse and the rolls, crans, slurs, triplets, and cuts of the pipers and fiddlers I was learning from, I would always play with a pronounced American accent.

I am at peace with those realities and continue to play (and even perform) a lot of jigs, reels, hornpipes, and polkas that started out in Ireland, but I'm not trying to kid anyone that it is in any way authentic. I really love Irish music and it makes me happy to play the tunes and to try to evoke the essence of them with my best understanding of the idiom, but in my mind, anyway, I will always differentiate between the playing of Irish tunes and the playing of Irish music.

I leave it up to the listeners to decide whether it worth bothering with on its own terms.

One guy's opinion.

PK

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## Dagger Gordon

Hey Paul,

If you're good enough for Kevin Burke I don't think you have to worry.

As regards numbers of harp players, I know heaps of them. For some reason they're mostly females - I'm not certain why that is.

Sometimes they show up playing accompaniment at sessions, but they're really best heard doing their own thing.

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## zoukboy

> Sometimes they [harpers] show up playing accompaniment at sessions, but they're really best heard doing their own thing.


like us mando players?  I love playing Irish music on mandolin, but I don't like trying to make it work in a session with any more than 2-3 people.

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## zoukboy

> arguably gerald trimble created quite a bit of what has now become mandolin technique in this sort of music with his cittern/bouzouki recordings. A lot of that technique transfers more readily to mandolin than banjo stuff.


I think Gerald's influence is really limited to this country (and perhaps to Canada?). I have yet to meet an Irish player influenced by him...

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## zoukboy

> I still say "pure drop" is just an invention to disguise an opinion of what is best as a cultural truth, but there you are


I'm not sure I understand this... Dan?

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## Keith Newell

Great topic! As a participant in an Irish jam that has been going on for about 16 years I have seen many trends and heard a lot of great players. Here in the Portland Oregon area we have many famous transplanted Irish musicians and their influence on the local music has been big. I have played the mandolin the whole time and all this time I listen to CD's and any media I can for Irish music. Over time I have developed a style that has been influenced by the fiddle of Kevin Burke, Guitar of Jed Foley and Mícheál Ó Domhnaill, the flute of Matt Malloy, bands like Solas, Craeb Rua, John Carty, Tim Obrien etc. We have a traveler show up every few weeks and about half of them are from Ireland and I tend to listen intently and pick up what and how they articulate the tune and in the data bank it goes.
 When playing I notice the style I play with is influenced by who or where I learned the tune. Many tunes I don't even know their name or where I got them. But the jist of this is I don't always play in one style. The mandolin is capable of so much and realy can be heard in a session very well. I am speaking from experience on some sessions that we had 16 to 20 people. 
  Mandolin in the U.S. is being influenced by recordings of the the early players like Mullhavile (spelling?) and modern bands like Lunasa that tour here. I really love to listen to Dervish and their Mandola/Bouzoukie work. Dan Beimborns CD Shatter the Calm is very good and does incompase several styles if you listen to it and I am sure he has picked them up the same way, by listening and direct contact with the players.
 Keith

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## Bertram Henze

> Originally Posted by  (danb @ Aug. 10 2006, 06:06)
> 
> I still say "pure drop" is just an invention to disguise an opinion of what is best as a cultural truth, but there you are 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I understand this... Dan?


Maybe I understand it, at least from my own view. Whoever tries to play irish but is not irish himself, involuntarily forms two pictures in his mind: what is "real irish" and what is himself. From then on forever, he'll be looking for that irish musical reality but never find it. I think the reason is there is no such thing as one true irish reality (or pure drop as Dan calls it); instead, there are as many viewpoints as there are people, and I have learned the viewpoints of irish people are the most variant and open-minded, because they don't have to look for reality, they just have them - each has his own. So anyone's picture of "real irish" is not neccessarily wrong, it's just different from other people's pictures, and that's all it can be compared to. E.g. The Dubliners and The Chieftains - are they from the same country? which one is Ireland? And that's ok for me; after all, music is for happiness, not for reality. 

Maybe I got it all wrong - Dan might correct me here, but that is how I understand it.
Authenticity, for me, is not a match between playing and "real playing". Anyone is authentic, whose playing matches his personality, i.e. who is not trying to represent something he isn't. Any instrument that fits the player is ok; then, even if it is late for history, it is at least not late for life.

Bertram

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## danb

I think "pure drop" is all opinion. The reality of it has changed vastly from the historical situation. Since the early 1900s, there have been recordings in circulation, and though there are still some players who learned from an unbroken line of handed-down techniques & styles, folks simply travel more, play with more people, and listen to CDs and tapes and the radio. I've yet to meet a musician from Ireland who would treat a style as "pure drop", meaning static and set at some time in the past.

My point is that using "traditional" or "pure drop" as a cructch to say "the way I'm playing is more correct" injects a poison directly into the heart of the thing. It's tantamount to the player saying "you're not playing that tune the way I prefer, and my preference is right, and yours is wrong".

I play a mixed bag of stuff but that's not really the point- the idea of a session is to have fun and play some tunes together, so in the worthwhile ones everyone will listen to each other, get a sense of what they have in common, and play some music. Somone playing that "Traditional" card is to me a power-play to set themselves up as the authority in the room to dictate what should be done, which is an affront to the communal fun of it all.

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## Dagger Gordon

I wouldn't worry about it, guys.

It's interesting to look at the Scottish piping competition scene. For some years now, pipers from New Zealand, America and elsewhere have literally been beating Scots at their own game at major piping events held in Scotland.

It's more than just getting the notes right, of course. These guys come to Scotland every year and get a feel of the place. 
I think the same is true of Irish trad. If you're serious about it, you've got to visit Ireland itself to get a feel for how the music is part of the culture of the people. They generally don't take themselves too seriously at all in my experience and will cheerfully add bits of country or pop if they feel like it.

So you get bands like Moving Hearts and Planxty, adding other styles and cultures to the mix. Even the Chieftains - look at all those albums they've done in the last few years which haven't been very Irish trad. They know what they're doing, though.

Dan is right. What it's largely about is the 'communal fun of it all'. Exactly! #It's also known as the craic.

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## Bertram Henze

> Dan is right. What it's largely about is the 'communal fun of it all'. Exactly! It's also known as the craic.


I see we are thinking in the same direction. Craic - I wish I had thought of that! ceol agus craic: can't separate them.

Bertram

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## zoukboy

> I think "pure drop" is all opinion. The reality of it has changed vastly from the historical situation. Since the early 1900s, there have been recordings in circulation, and though there are still some players who learned from an unbroken line of handed-down techniques & styles, folks simply travel more, play with more people, and listen to CDs and tapes and the radio. I've yet to meet a musician from Ireland who would treat a style as "pure drop", meaning static and set at some time in the past.
> 
> My point is that using "traditional" or "pure drop" as a crutch to say "the way I'm playing is more correct" injects a poison directly into the heart of the thing. It's tantamount to the player saying "you're not playing that tune the way I prefer, and my preference is right, and yours is wrong".
> 
> I play a mixed bag of stuff but that's not really the point- the idea of a session is to have fun and play some tunes together, so in the worthwhile ones everyone will listen to each other, get a sense of what they have in common, and play some music. Somone playing that "Traditional" card is to me a power-play to set themselves up as the authority in the room to dictate what should be done, which is an affront to the communal fun of it all.


Dan,

I see your point but I don't think that the concept of "the pure drop" is synonymous with "poisoning" or "using as a crutch." I think what you are describing are bad experiences you've had with individuals in sessions, people who abuse the notions of tradition.

IMHO what trips people up is thinking of "the" style or of "the tradition" or "the pure drop", as if it were one thing - one that can be analyzed musically.

I think of tradition as attitude as much as anything else. One that respects those who have come before and accepts the responsibility of learning that and integrating said knowledge into a personal approach that honors precedent while carrying it forward, and having a great time with other musicians while we're at it.

That said, there will probably always be people who don't like what players like you and me do because we're from outside the cultural context of the music. Most of the "begrudgers" I've run into are from outside the tradition, too, and who attempt to set themselves up as authorities. But that is not the music's or the culture's fault, nor is it indicative of "tradition" or "the pure drop". It's just a few petty tyrants trying to throw their weight around. Human nature, pecking order politics.

Sounds like you've either run into a few individuals who are confused about their opinion being more correct than yours, or perhaps they just didn't like your playing. Both have happened to me but I just say "to hell with the begrudgers" and enjoy myself in spite of them.

It's all a big conversation that we're having with the music and each other. The fact that there are a few bullys who try to dominate that conversation is not a reflection of the conversation itself.

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## jmcgann

> I just say "to hell with the begrudgers" and enjoy myself in spite of them.


I was complaining about some very negative reviews I recieved over "The Boston Edge" CD, and Seamus Connolly gave me the same advice about the begrudgers, although he used a different four letter word  

Michael Coleman had begrudgers, as did Joe Derrane, Johnny Doran, Seamus and anyone who ever played anything in any tradition that was a challenge to players of lesser abilities, or simply too 'personalized'. The self-appointed keepers of the flame are rarely the best players, so the hell with 'em anyway.

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## Paul Hostetter

All my life my Scottish relatives used the term "pure drop" in reference to single malt whisky, usually in admiration. I think the term, like the mandolin, must be a somewhat recent adoptee of the Iroid music world. Even if Thomas Hardy had a Dorset pub called Pure Drop Inn in his 1891 book _Tess of the D'Urbervilles_.

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## mikeyes

This "pure drop" discussion is present in all sorts of traditional music, the preservationists versus the progressives. Maybe not so delineated as most practicioners of a genera are a little of both but aften are stuck with a group-think opinion due to peer pressure. The discussion often gets very nasty, but this is because people are nasty, not necessarily due to content or persuasion. There are plenty of reasons to stay inventive within the parameters of the tradition as you know it and not to succumb to outside influences and plenty of reason to borrow. If you look at the old records of (primarily American made http://juneberry78s.com/sounds/ListenToIrishDance.htm) Irish dance music you will hear a lot of outside influences - but you can hear pipers who don't show that influence too. But if you compare the way they play a lot of the music then with how it is played nowadays by traditional musicians, there are obvious differences in pace, technique, and sometimes the tunes themselves. No music is static.

Just so I won't ruffle too many ITM feathers, let's examine bluegrass. BG is by no means a traditional music. It is exactly 60 years old this year and there is nearly 100% documentation of it's growth and origins. Yet this same pseudo-argument has arisen in spades with formal organizations, festivals, and recording companies on both sides. One familiar point is the composition of a bluegrass band: Acceptable instruments are five string banjo played with Scruggs style, mandolin, guitar, bass, fiddle, and sometimes dobro. If you tried to introduce electric guitar, string sections, new age bird sounds, drums, accordion, tenor banjo, harmonica (maybe), or the harmonium you would be drummed out of the corps. Of course, those are the other instruments used by Bill Monroe at some time or another (including one of his last hits before he died), but the total preservationists will not hear of that. There is one organization that bans the use of an electric bass on stage for the same reason even though the main reason for such is convenience of travel.

There is no justification for such shenanigans unless your idea of preserving the flame is to smother it. No tradition is not influenced by other good musics. The ironic thing is that BG is a synthesis of mountain, dance, blues (one of the most important influences was a bluesman named Arnold Schultz, who was not German), and shape note singing. R&B shares the same types of root of church and blues.

What happens is that some people become fanatics and the session nazi arises. I have been in a few of those sessions and they have all been very uncomfortable. Again, this is not to say that there isn't a legitimate discussion about the direction of the tradition (any of them) but what the practical answer is that there is not one direction only, but a lot of directions that end up influencing each other. The distillation to "it is what I say it is" is a false one in all traditions, unless you are a band leader with very strong ideas and then it works because you are trying to make music instead of some political point.

The Irishfest is upon us and you cannot find a more diverse presentation of ideas about Irish/Celtic (Cape Breton is the focus on the Roots stage this year) music. I try to go in with an open mind but always gravitate to the Gaeltacht area and listen to the Irish language, the pipes, and the old timers play their music. As do a lot of the progressive band members when they are finished playing on stage. That should tell you something.

Here is another question: who does define traditional music? Some obscure private or governmental body hidden away in a small town? The audience who show up at shows and festivals and by the records? The record companies, stores and festival owners? Or the musicians?

Before we jump to the obvious conclusion (the musicians) remember that musicians are a special group and for the most part cannot live without the others mentioned. Even early on the musicians were in a special place (high or low depending) and were so honored in a village because they facilitated an important cultural item, dance or entertainmemt. Virtually all the records we have are commercial products and the field recordings were usually of prominent musicians who had to have either a dance or an audience to be prominent. (Commercial doesn't always mean you were paid cash, pigs and goats, or a special place in society were also fair compensation.)

I think that the issue of defining the music is much more complex.


Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## jmcgann

> I think that the issue of defining the music is much more complex.


Amen. Reducing the music to an idea to "purity" does a disservice to the music. You can always find a traditional contradiction to whatever concept is supposed to be "pure" anyhow!

If you are closely involved in ANY style of music, you develop a sense of what makes the style tick, and what sort of things lie outside of general useage.

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## Bob DeVellis

No question, styles drift from their origins, usually for the better. But sometimes that drift coalesces around a distinctive form. In bluegrass, for example, the three-finger banjo style is an example. I don't think anything like that has happened with the mandolin in Irish music. I'm not sure that this is a bad thing. 

As others have said, the session may not be the ideal place for the mandolin for a variety of reasons (e.g., volume, pitch redundancy with other instruments, etc). But, as has also been noted, it's not ideal for harp, either, and that certainly doesn't make the harp unsuitable for Irish music. Perhaps the Irish mandolin style that should be cultivated is a "parlor style."  Personally, I prefer listening to Irish music on mandolin in a context that supports the instrument's sweet tone and seemingly limitless ornamental possibilities. That usually means less loud, less uniform, and less fast music than the typical session encourages. I'm, so far, incapable of playing mandolin at the speeds often encountered in sessions. But (and I guess this might be sour grapes to some degree) I'm not strongly motivated to do that, either. I enjoy listening to session music but it's the sound found on recordings of Irish mandolin music played solo or in very small groups that I really wish I could achieve and that I most enjoy. I wonder if the strong linkage between session music and Irish music is part of what's inhibiting the emergence of a recognizable Irish mandolin style.

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## danb

The only thing inhibiting a standard style is the fact that the instrument is so flexible. You couldn't point to a standard fiddle style.. there are too many dialects and virtuosos to divide it down. The same is true of the mandolin- they have the breadth and variety of any other instrument you could think of. The instrument is too darned flexible to reduce it to a single mono-culture

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## mikeyes

My vision of "Irish Mandolin" is not so much a codified style as a consensus of how much the mandolin can do and still stay within some boundaries that can be (if vaguely) in the family of Irish music. This includes some of the Scottish styles and some of the American styles incorporated into the music since there will be a place for new ideas that are mandolin-centric due to the instrument's peculiarities. Just within this group there are a lot of very good ideas on how to play the music and we can and will influence each other. The problem is access and a dearth of examples right now. I think that can be rectified.

As we explore the instrument, there will be a lot of surprises. Fewer plucked triplets and more techique triplets, for example. All the usual stuff we see from other types of music and maybe a brand new presentation for those non-Irish players too. I already know that when I play an Irish tune for my BG friends, they are very interested because they see the potential for new ideas. My BG playing has improved considerably since I started playing Irish music mostly out of improving my discipline, timing, and reading notation instead of tab. I have had to learn to develop variations in a more subtle manner. It's not just playing the notes, it is a matter of developing style.

Style is important. If you don't have a style, you are not totally immersed in the music. Style means that you have mastered (some, at least) the technical aspects of the instrument, are precise and accurate and have enough consitency that you can play what is in your head. At that point you are able to create or copy, whatever is important to you at the time. Players with style are unique even if they epitomise the style. Play the same fiddle tune by Martin Hayes, James Kelly, and Kevin Burke and you can tell who is who but if asked will say, "yes, that is Irish music" even though they are totally different in many respects. 

As a musician, that is one of your goals, to be recognized due to your style. Of course your style may be awful  but it is your style and it can evolve as time goes on. Playing Irish music means thinking "Irish" as you play in your style, not playing a specific way.

A lot of aspiring mandolinists will want to hear master musicians play and will try to emulate them. That is the way most people start out, but in Irish music there are not a lot of role models yet. This should change as time goes on.

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## Steve L

In some ways, I'm really glad we don't have someone like Bill Monroe casting a huge shadow over the way the instrument is played in this music. #There are people to listen to, learn from, and admire, but we all have to come to terms with the instument in the music our own way.

I'm starting to hear more and more John Doyle wannabes on guitar (Who is unquestionably a great player.)and that also makes me kind of glad there isn't a "Celtic" Thile.

This is one of the best threads I've read in a long time...thanks to all who have made it so!

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## jmcgann

> A lot of aspiring mandolinists will want to hear master musicians play and will try to emulate them. That is the way most people start out, but in Irish music there are not a lot of role models yet.


There are vast numbers of role models, they just aren't mandolinists...

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## mikeyes

"There are vast numbers of role models, they just aren't mandolinists..." 

John, that's true, but the banjo players want to hear the banjo, fiddle players want to hear fiddlers, etc. just to get an idea of what can be done. A master level musician can take ideas from anyone, but novice and late beginners need a little more inspiration from someone they recognize. That's why they look to you  and others on this list. Steve's point about becoming worshippers is valid too, but there are middle grounds. Besides seeing a good mandolin player play the music means that it can be done. You may need years of practice and outrageous talent, but it can be done and that frees up a lot of musicians psychologically to try things on their own. The advantage of seeing someone else palying your chosen instrument is not that you copy them, but that you are able to specifically hear the instrument played.


Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## zoukboy

> The self-appointed keepers of the flame are rarely the best players, so the hell with 'em anyway.


Amen, John. 

For me the important word here is "self-appointed." Anyone who makes begrudging remarks about specific players in a public forum [we know who we're talking about, don't we ;-) ] should be publicly shunned.

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## Bren

I think it's great that there's no accepted "authentic" way of playing Irish, or Scottish or Shetland etc, tunes on the mandolin. 
I listen to Dan, Dagger and Kevin's, and Gary Peterson's recordings for pleasure and never really think of trying to play like that (even if it were possible! well, I suppose I do think about it but something else comes out when I play ..), since I play along normally with fiddlers, whistlers and accordions and learn my tunes from them.
Andy Irvine would've been the first Irish mandolinist I really listened to, but his style is so personal and individual it would seem strange to copy it. Mind you, Bill Monroe's playing strikes me that way too, and they built a whole genre around copying him ....

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## Dagger Gordon

If I may be the devil's advocate for a while, it would be wrong to assume that absolutely anything is appropriate at a session. 
I have been to sessions where people make little effort to tune in to the essential vibe of the place and and who have spoilt it. Equally I have seen players sit in, spend some time assessing what kind of stuff the session is about and then make a contribution of their own which lifted everybody.
If you join in a session, I think you do need to show some awareness. 
Secondly, at the risk of being a session nazi, there are some things I just don't like to hear. For example, someone playing a 6/8 march like a jig. 
But you've always got to encourage people and not to put them off.

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## Bertram Henze

> But you've always got to encourage people and not to put them off.


Yeah, that's the way to go. 
In a regular session I attend, there is one singer who always bawls one or two unknown, blues-like, emphatic songs making everybody twist their eyes, but I say behind every singer there's a lonely soul that wants to be loved, so let him do it and not hurt him, because you never know what others think about what you do. 
And I am quite successful in playing lesser known non-traditional tunes on my OM, partly because the others get interested ("what's that called?" "Peter Barnes and Indian Summer" - thanks to Dan btw., or even "Loaves and Fishes"), partly because it prevents the others from picking up the tune with ridiculously high speed the OM can't follow (oh those fiddlers...), but with any luck one or two guitars will pick up the chords and I am not lonely, even get applause, although I check out of that highspeed would-be-traditional tourist-attraction steam-engine jukebox. 
Phew, someone will flame me for this, but you don't care so much when you're getting older...

Bertram

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## Paul Hostetter

Garsh, speaking of singing, one of the things I have noticed about real Irish sessions (inhabitated predominantly by Irish persons, not Americans who imagine or wish they were) is that when it comes to singing a song, there are no boundaries. "Ah Peter, now give us a song," and Peter launches into something by Tom Waits or Bob Marley. Initially it puzzled me, but I got over it. Some things in real Irish sessions are evidently not always supposed to flow from the 18th century or meet approval by the Music Police. Leaving certain folks in the dust with repertoire or speed choices is another issue, of course.

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## mandocrucian

> Garsh, speaking of singing, one of the things I have noticed about real Irish sessions (inhabitated predominantly by Irish persons, not Americans who imagine or wish they were) is that when it comes to singing a song, there are no boundaries. "Ah Peter, now give us a song," and Peter launches into something by Tom Waits or Bob Marley. Initially it puzzled me, but I got over it. Some things in real Irish sessions are evidently not always supposed to flow from the 18th century or meet approval by the Music Police.


When you really _are_ Irish, there's no need to continually _prove_ that you are. #I've seen the same phenomenna with folks that have taken up Cajun music (and other ethnic music). #Trying so hard to prove they are worthy of being awarded a "honorary Cajun merit badge" when there are real Cajuns in the jam, and too often becoming the style gestapo when it's all non-Cajuns. 

I guess it is the same as _new religious convert zealotry_ ......._new genre convert zealotry_

Ties into the thread about _"authenticity"_ #(*such a thing as too much diversity?, can jack-of-all be master of any?*). #I hate that concept/conceit. #You're only authentic if you grew up in that tradition. I don't care about being "authentic" because it ain't gonna happen - sounding _"convincing"_ is a more realistic goal/aspiration.

Actually, I started out playing UK/Irish stuff 35 years ago, inspired by Fairport Convention, Steeleye Span, Pentangle, etc. #and was ordering LPs (Chieftains, Planxty, High Level Ranters, Boys of The Lough, Carthy/Swarbrick, #etc. etc) from the UK long before any of this stuff was ever available on US labels. When I (also) started playing BG a few years later, the grassers (even the progressives) would roll their eyes at any tune (say _"Wind That Shakes The Barley", "Paddy Ryan's Dream"_) other than _"Red Haired Boy"_ (Tony Rice's version) as if it was a novelty song (at best).... and don't even think about trying to get them to attempt a jig or slip jig. #And now, it's so _"in"_.

But now there's old-time or grassers who only got the Irish bug 5 or 6 years back who now act like they are the experts and will tell you what is or what isn't appropriate to play. Their listening may go all the way back to Altan! You mention Martin Byrnes, Billy Pigg, and you can tell by the expression or comeback that they have no idea who you're talking about (although they'll often pretend like they're familiar with _all_ of it.) #




> My vision of "Irish Mandolin" is not so much a codified style as a consensus of how much the mandolin can do and still stay within some boundaries that can be (if vaguely) in the family of Irish music. #


Sorry, but having (American) bluegrassers defining the parameters of what is and isn't "Irish mandolin" seems like a steering committee meeting of _The Judean People's Front_ (or was the _The People's Front of Judea_?) <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(Monty Python *Life of Brian* reference)</span> #If anyone is gonna do that, it ought to be the Irish players - cause it's _their_ music.

NH

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## zoukboy

> Sorry, but having (American) bluegrassers defining the parameters of what is and isn't "Irish mandolin" seems like a steering committee meeting of _The Judean People's Front_ (or was the _The People's Front of Judea_?) <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(Monty Python *Life of Brian* reference)</span> If anyone is gonna do that, it ought to be the Irish players - cause it's _their_ music.
> 
> NH


Niles,

The Monty Python reference is funny, but I think it's worth noting that not all of us in this discussion are "bluegrassers". 

Re: it being "their" music - I agree. In a previous post I mentioned that the mandolin does not seem to have gathered "a constituency of players whose efforts would come to be identified as 'the Irish mandolin style'." While I wouldn't rule out the possibility of US-based (as opposed to Irish born immigrants to the States) Irish specialists having some affect on Irish mandolin playing in Ireland, it certainly isn't the norm. Some US-based fiddlers, fluters and box players (and yes, even banjo players) have had some influence but I have yet to notice any by (US-based) mando or bouzouki players.

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## Steve L

I came to this music in the 70's like many of the players I know and still have a stack of vinyl the size of the Acropolis in my living room that is the bane of my wife's existence. #When I decided to play this music exclusively, I felt I had so much baggage as a guitar player across a number of idioms that it was really getting in my way. #When I read Breandan Breathnach's advice that if you come to this music later in life, it's best to do so on an instrument upon which you've received no previous instruction, I chose to play the mandolin. #I've learned to love it, but at the time it was a pragmatic means to an end and it really worked for me. #I've never had the slightest interest in bluegrass.

It seems no stranger to me that Americans would play Irish music than Rory Gallagher or Clapton would play the blues.
And no matter what I feel or do, some people will like my playing, some will think it's garbage, and most of the inhabitants of the planet will remain spectacularly uninterested. #I will not sound like an native born Irishman any more than Mr. Gallagher or Mr. Clapton sound as if they crawled out of the mud of the Delta. But let's not pretend that there are no lame players in Erin. #Ezra Pound wrote in one of his Cantos "What thou love best is thy true heritage" and that's as close as I'll get and as close as I need to be.

By the way, the great piper Billy Pigg wasn't Irish...he was Northumbrian.

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## Dagger Gordon

I noted the reference to Billy Pigg myself, Steve, and was a bit surprised.

Having said that, the music of the North East of England is distinct from the rest of country, and often overlooked. Musicians like the wonderful Northumbrian pipes and fiddle player Katherine Tickell are essential listening.

There is also a strong Irish community, mainly in Newcastle, with some top players, and let's not forget the great instrument maker Stefan Sobell himself, who lives near Hexham.

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## Paul Kotapish

> By the way, the great piper Billy Pigg wasn't Irish...he was Northumbrian.


And speaking of digressions . . . there are many great "Irish" musicians who are--strictly speaking--not Irish.

Fiddler Kevin Burke and mandolinist Andy Irvine are both English, for example. Of Irish parents (or Irish and Scottish, in Andy's case), of course, but Kevin and Andy were born and bred in London. 

Seamus Egan, Liz Carroll, John Williams, and any number of All-Ireland Champions all hail from the U.S.

All of them, however, grew up in the tradition, no matter how far afield from the old sod.

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## mandocrucian

> By the way, the great piper Billy Pigg wasn't Irish...he was Northumbrian.


Yeah I know. That shows you've listened to the guy! #But anyone that pretensions of being the style-gestapo (Irish or Celtic) ought to have listened to enough stuff including Scottish, Shetland, Northumbrian,..... 




> not all of us in this discussion are "bluegrassers".


You're right. 

Actually to be technically correct, there probably aren't any truebluegrassers involved - cause a bona fide one would never cheat on the grass with another genre!

Re: Irvine, Egan etc. Geography isn't the total definer; as I said - "You're only authentic if you grew up in that tradition." #And I think they all fit that quite well.

NH

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>_"What's taking that asteroid so long?!"_</span>

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## Steve L

Dagger, a few years back Pauline Cato and Tom McConville played a concert here in my town of Arlington, Ma. Northumbrian music is really under-appreciated! They were wonderful. At one time, both Tony Cuffe and Johnny Cunningham lived here in town. A lot of great players come through here (with the notable exception of myself.).

Jaime Laval and Ashley Broder and Old Blind Dogs will be around shortly so Scotland is getting some of it's due. My buddies and I from Tony Cuffe's traditional repetoire class always play some Scottish and Shetland tunes in our "Irish" sessions.

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## Dagger Gordon

I hope to hear Jamie and Ashley. I heard a bit of him last year with Hans York. It'll be interesting to see how Ashley approaches the mandolin. I don't know anything about her.

Tony Cuffe will always be sadly missed.

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## mikeyes

I am sitting in the midst of the MIlwaukee Irishfest summer school surrounded by Irish, Cape Breton (including Jerry Holland), Scottish and who knows what else musicians looking for a mandolin and I seem to have the only one present. I made that remark about the mandolin to focus on technique and not style. The mandolin offers unique qualities that need to be taken advantage of instead of just being a minature banjo. The problem is that there are no Irish musicians who are doing that exploration while there are a number of musicians interested in Irish music who live elsewhere and play the mandolin as a primary instrument. While many of them have had a relationship with bluegrass, as far as I can tell they know the difference. Technique and style do not equate and in most cases, personal style and genera style don't have to equate, either.

The business of you can't play Irish if you are not Irish doesn't hold up. I will add John Carty (England) to the list. If it were true, we would have to wait a very long time to find an Irish born mandolin style and I am too old for that 

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## Bren

Martin Murray is a pretty distinctive Irish mandolin player but he's only made one solo record as far as I know, seems to be more often heard playing on recording sessions for other artists, playing fiddle, doing sound engineering etc etc
Admittedly his mandolin playing is not too far removed from his banjo style but like Gary Peterson he makes it sound "right" for the mandolin

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## Shana Aisenberg

Great thread. I've been playing Celtic music for about 30 years now. I started with guitar and mandolin, and have added other instruments along the way. I don't make any claim to play "pure drop", I'll leave that to listeners or "the experts" to decide, however I do my best to get inside the style and find ways of adding fiddle and pipes ornamentation to my instruments. 

I've never been much for sessions, probably because of playing quieter instruments, but also because I live in a rural area, and there aren't many sessions close by. I've always preferred to find folks I wanted to play with and play (and gig) with them in small groups. While I love playing mandolin, I tend to use bouzouki more often in groups, saving mandolin for certain tunes.

I also play klezmer music, among other styles, and find many parallels to this discussion. In large klezmer sessions with brass and wind instruments, a mandolin is easily drowned out. Yet it does have a tradition of use as a parlor instrument, and works well in smaller ensembles.

The other parallel I find is the notion about having to be Irish to be authentic. I am Jewish, however, this didn't automatically make me a great klezmer player. When I decided to get serious about klezmer I had to immerse in the music deeply, listening and learning to speak the "accent" properly. Just as I've had to do, and continue to do, for playing Celtic, old time, or blues. It's a lifelong process.

Seth

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## zoukboy

> When I decided to get serious about klezmer I had to immerse in the music deeply, listening and learning to speak the "accent" properly. Just as I've had to do, and continue to do, for playing Celtic, old time, or blues. It's a lifelong process.
> 
> Seth


Amen, Seth.

I often use language analogies when teaching Irish music and find them very useful. Acquiring an intelligible "accent" in playing a music to which one is a non-native is really difficult, and like language is easier for some folks than others, but it is essential to mastery of the idiom.

Of course much fun can be had "speaking" the language of Irish music with an American (or other) accent, too. One need not learn to speak like a native in order to enjoy it but is a good idea to become intelligible before trying to hang with the native speakers. You gotta read "Dick & Jane" and speak like a 5 year old before you can discuss English Lit. on a high level and there ain't no quick way to get there in a foreign language without a hell of a lot of hard work.

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## Rick C.

Sage words from Uncle Daddy.

 Great analogy, Roger.


 # #Rick

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## mikeyes

My research is coming to an end and I have found some masters of a Celtic Style on the mandolin, JP Cormier and Jerry Holland. After I lowered the action on my Bighorn, they were able to show me some pretty amazing stuff with triplets and especially the awsome (in the old meaning of the word - awe was produced) ornamentation that both put on the fiddle.

I only wished I had videoed their playing, but I have to tell you tha it was so effortless that if you were not right there, you would swear that they were not doing anything. 

The Cape Breton style is very square, i.e. everything is right on the beat, and the drive comes from the bowing and ornamentation. It is different from the Irish style (it is a Scottish style) but with some point-of-view changes it can be adapted. The trick is to get some of the Jerry Holland records and try to hear what he does. It is very quick and very subtle. 

The interesting thing is that they just "play around" with the mandolin as a fourth or fifth instrument (Jerry Holland has a Vega cylinder back) but are so talented that they can translate the style to the mando. The trick is to have the smaller guage strings and low action. I am going to get some choro strings, light weight standard strings and put the light TI's back on to see what happens. I will lose volume, I was warned about that, but I will gain the ability to play the ornamentations is I can figure them out. (Droning the A note on the D string like Bill Monroe, half rolled and have right hand triplets, Brenda Stubbert's starts with a roll instead of a quarter note, etc. Listen hard for a long time  

Jerry Holland will be starting a school on Cape Breton soon and his tunebooks and CDs are classic, get them both.

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## Dagger Gordon

JP and Jerry have both played the guitar for years, beside being great fiddlers. 
JP is known as much as a guitar player as a fiddler- he's brilliant at flatpicking tunes.
I suppose his mandolin playing is essentially the right hand of the guitar and the left hand of the fiddle, almost a by-product of both.
He has made a mandolin album though, which I haven't heard.

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## Steve L

Mike, you should see if you can contact Dave MacIssac. I'm sure you're familiar with him...he's a great Cape Breton fiddler as well as a fine guitarist and (I'm pretty sure) a mandolinist. I'm sure he'd have some great insights on interpreting and ornamenting tunes. I've been at a couple of fiddle club workshops to learn tunes that he's been part of and he seems like a nice guy and is a very powerful player.

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## mikeyes

I had breakfast with Jerry Holland and David MacIsaac yesterday but never thought to ask him about mandolin. Both of them told that JP Cormier was the one to talk to (which I did, and he showed me his mandolin, a varnished Collings A) and I did see both him and Jerry play. They told me that "no one played" in Cape Breton, meaning that no one played at the kitchen sessions or on stage. A lot of them played for their own pleasure, I guess, although everyone said to talk to JP.

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## keithd

Interesting to see some vintage Any Irvine playing (on a vintage Gibson A-2):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z3A5Tgy47M&NR

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## keithd

Oops - that's Andy Irvine...

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## Lawrence Molloy

thanks for that keith, nice one.

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## zoukboy

> Interesting to see some vintage Any Irvine playing (on a vintage Gibson A-2):
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z3A5Tgy47M&NR


I think that is a mandola. Andy used a Gibson during his years with Planxty, tuning it FCGc (a whole step below mando with the first string dropped like bouzouki tuning) and frequently capoing it.

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## danb

It's an A3 mandolin. I'd recognize the inlay from 40' away

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## zoukboy

> It's an A3 mandolin. I'd recognize the inlay from 40' away


I bet you would, Dan! ;-)

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## Tom A

> The only thing inhibiting a standard style is the fact that the instrument is so flexible. You couldn't point to a standard fiddle style.. there are too many dialects and virtuosos to divide it down. The same is true of the mandolin- they have the breadth and variety of any other instrument you could think of. The instrument is too darned flexible to reduce it to a single mono-culture


Seems like I always get to the party as everyone is leaving, but I recently ran across the following tidbit from an interview with Martin Hayes, which reinforces your point:




> Most of my ideas are picked up from musicians and Clare people like my father (P. J. Hayes), Paddy Canny, Junior Crehan, Bobby Casey. But it's not the complete picture. Anybody looking at a regional style will see it with their own set of blinkers on. I see one thing, where if somebody else went there, they might see another thing. And I've followed what I saw, what I believe it to be. There's a good degree of subjectivity when you're determining a regional style. And then there's also the problem, if I were to go to East Clare and pick out the definitive East Clare fiddle player, he or she couldn't be found. Because you'd have to have a collection of them before you begin to see that they all contain little parts of it. Maybe no one plays it completely. So I wouldn't be playing definitively in the "East Clare style." I'd be playing how I see it, and then I'd be further into seeing what that philosophically meant -- what were the reasons for them to play music, how did they see music, what did they aspire to in music -- and then taking those ideas and following on from those concepts. Leading you to things that might not necessarily have been heard within that tradition before -- but, in my subjective opinion, not inconsistent with it either. I find myself in that in-between world where in one sense I think it's absolutely traditional, and then with just a flick like that, suddenly it's something completely new and different. And it wavers. It just sits on that edge all the time.


I.e. the "tradition" is some average set of musical characteristics that "define" the style, providing a reference point and perhaps even an ideal to attain, but no matter what, each musician will unavoidably fingerprint it with their own personality. In this view, nobody can ever really be "true" to the tradition because it's inherently a fuzzy statistic - you just incorporate the average, common characteristics to a greater or lesser degree in your choice of instruments and your expression of the music.

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## mikeyes

Tom A,

You make an excellent point (that traditions and musicians don't always meet the same set of expectations and musicians can go beyond what is expected and stay within the tradition) that I think most of us will agree to. I think there are things that a mandolinist can do to make his or her mark on the tradition including listening to other musicians (we have few mandolin models, so we listen to fiddle, accordion, pipes, etc. as has been mentioned) and improving our own skills. I have set up my Bighorn using the suggestions of Jerry Holland and found that lowering the action and using a set of La Bella flatwounds (.033,.024W, .015, .010) makes it easier to play the ornaments without losing a lot of tone. Volume does go down some, but unless you are playing in a session volume is not as much of a consideration. Besides, as has been mentioned, you have to use a lot of force on your F holed mandolin to be heard in a session, and sessions are not conducive to good style unless you are playing solo.

I am learning to play the Tim O'Brien set of "Lancer's" and Gusty's Frolics (I don't know the real name of the first tune but it is a good one) and am able to play more ornaments that work with the music than I could with a conventional J74/higher action setup. With the lower action the music flows better, especially the slip jig, and it "feels" much better too. So far it is a start.

Mel Bay Banjo

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## Dagger Gordon

In one sense playing Celtic music is almost a state of mind - listen to lots of it and you'll get it etc.

However, I think there are some definite technical differences which we should discuss.

Top of these is plectrums.

I recently had a chance to jam with American old time band the Crooked Jades. They had an old Gibson oval holed mandolin which they offered to me to play. However, I simply couldn't do it with the big thick stiff pick they had. Equally, they were mystified by the Swedish-made white sharkfin which I invariably use.

I've never met anyone from the States who has seen a Sharkfin plectrum, but they suit me very well. Firm but flexible, never break.

No doubt someone will say that I would get more volume with something else, but in fact the Jades commented that my old Gibson was pretty loud so I think it's fine.

But the plectrums were certainly very different. It's worth mentioning that these folks play old time American music, which is quite like Celtic music in many ways.

So if we're looking at a US Irish style, it would be interesting to see how many of you over there are coming at it from an approach to the plectrum which I think is essentially American. What do guys like Mick Maloney use?

I definitely want to make it clear that I'm not suggesting anyone has to change. If it works for you, that's fine and you don't want to change. But I couldn't use what the Jades had.

Comments please. Have we any former bluegrass players who have changed pick as they got into Celtic for example?

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## danb

Hey Dagger,

I actually switch picks for different tones.. on an F5 if you want that bassy chunky/choppy sound, you need to use a thicker pick.. wheras to get nicely articulated triplets it works a bit more smoothly with a thinner one.. my normal is a clayton .72mm, though I have a couple of instruments that I will use an "Abnormal" pick on to get more bass, or more treble!

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## Steve L

I'm able to get smooth flowing triplets with a very heavy pick, but I need a very sharp point to do it. I use Jim Dunlop jazz guitar picks (either red nylon or purple tortex)with the very sharp points and it works really well for me. I cant do anything with the "Golden Gate" type mando picks. I do need a much thinner pick for zouk and banjo (Fender medium 358 teardrops).

I'm really gald to hear people recommending lighter gague strings for this music. I realized pretty quickly I couldn't even think about hammer ons and pull offs with the strings and action Bluegrass players use. I'm relieved to come out of the closet with my GHS A250s and Thomastik lights. I kind of came to the conclusion also that the way my playing sounds when I'm struggling for volume, I really don't want anyone to hear. I think if you're there at a session and playing and absorbing what's going on around you, something beneficial is happening to you. I'm convinced there are tangible physiological changes that happen to me sitting in the midst of acoustic intruments playing this music. 

Really enjoyed that quote from Martin Hayes. This thread just keeps getting better.

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## Shana Aisenberg

For years I used Dunlop nylon picks on mandolin, either .72 or .88. After 25 years of playing everything on mandolin except bluegrass, I got interested in Monroe style and now use heavy, 1.5 rounded picks on mandolin. I still prefer using a Herdim (very light nylon) on zouk though.

Seth

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## danb

I think that with medium or heavy picks you need to develop a loose grip.. I can triplet with heavy picks, but you have to really relax a bit more and the overall tone is much bassier with a heavy pick

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## mikeyes

I find that I can use the thicker picks (Dunlap 207/208, Proplec 1.5, etc. but not the "Dawg" style picks) and get well defined triplets as long as I hold the pick with a loose grip. #I have no problems keeping the pick in my hand either. #Another aspect to technique is that I don't have to press down so hard using the setup mentioned above. #I am still working on this, but my lighter left hand is leading to a lighter right hand resulting in easier ornamentation.

The low action will not tolerate a heavy BG style right hand (it tends to rattle if you strike the strings too hard) but the heavier pick gives more tone and is easier to drive through the strings with a minimum of effort. #I use flatwound strings which are denser than roundwounds so the strings will drive the top even though they feel light on the left hand. #The A and E courses are similar to most other medium sets of strings and, of course, are not wound.

I use .63 and .73 nylon Dunlaps with my banjo, but that technique is different from the mandolin technique and the instrument is naturally much louder, even with the lighter pick. #If you use the lighter picks on a mandolin you can gain some of the banjo riffs, but you sacrifice a lot of tone and sound. #I think that with practice, you can do just as well with a thicker pick.

Interestingly (although this is an N=1 for the pick), the TS pick that mysteriously appeared in my case one day does not do as well as the others I mentioned on any of my mandolins. #I find that the inexpensive plastic picks do work better. #Of course, this is a function of my playing, the instrument and the alignment of the planets so it will not be predictive for what you do. #The same is true for my Tortis picks. #

Matt Cranitch says that the music is in the right hand. #I have just started using his book and will try to adapt it to mandolin. #Also, Roger Landes is a gold mine for this kind of information. #If you ever get a chance to work with him (and there are plenty of chances) do so or at least get his DVD.

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## Paul Hostetter

Now this thread about music has veered off predictably into a thread about gear.  

For 20-some years I played guitar for a marvelous Italian mandolin player who played an unremarkable A-5 copy with the most insubstantial pick, a little extra-thin gray Herco or Dunlop nylon pick which he trimmed with scissors to a point. When he played you could hear him blocks away. Loud, strong, crisp, superb tremolo, he was a brilliant, powerful player by any measure. 

At the very end of his life we played for the San Francisco Mandolin Festival, and by chance on the same show was Jody Stecher, a longtime pal and client of mine, whose instruments I have been shepherding for decades. I also make picks for him, and they are serious items along the lines of Wegens before Wegens existed and beyond Grisperson picks, a few flavor variations for mandolin and guitar. Jody is an equally serious mandolin player, and gets really equivalent tone and volume to Tony's. His observation after an afternoon of watching Tony really closely and marveling over his playing technique was that the two of them had the same hand position when they played - which was spot on. You could have swapped Tony's Yasuma for Jody's Stanley Miller (having refretted them each many times, I know them well) and they would have still sounded like themselves: loud, strong, crisp, superb tremolo, brilliant, powerful. 

It's not about the pick, it's about technique and musicianship. It's at the very least about what you've become accustomed to. 

Those horn items from China are a joke as they come from the supplier. It is indeed as if they are cut with a cookie cutter. But once you dress the edges (easy enough with a nail file and so on), they don't hold up long before the edge gets raspy. 

Da stuff:



I like picks made of stuff like this because they are easy to find when you drop them, although when I used to play with the eminently losable tortoise, I engraved my name in them and they actually came back!

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## Dagger Gordon

It's certainly about musicianship rather than the pick, and I'm sorry if you feel this thread has taken a downward spiral.

I still think it's relevant though. I was particularly interested to know if playing Irish/Celtic music had involved a change of plectrum for anyone who had previously played in another style.

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## mikeyes

I hope that this thread is not going to talk about just equipment. The point of the pick comments is that many of the techniques used by musicians can be played with a thicker pick. Good technique is needed to do so and many of us (with good technique) just like the sound that a thicker pick gives.

After I wrote about using the thicker picks, I tried a .63 light gray Dunlop on my setup. It sounded fairly good and was as loud as the thicker pick (which must mean my technique is adequate) but I still prefer the fuller sound of a thicker pick, at least at this point in time. The picks I use have a point on them and the loose right hand allows the point to flow through the strings. Good tone should be the goal of any technique. The choice of pick does make a difference in the fullness of sound and it affects how the instrument is played but the latter is much less of an issue if the player has good techique.

Equipment and setup do make a difference in the ability of the musician to play the music. The goal should be to make it easier to play the musical style. Whether you use a thin or thick pick is irrelevant if your technique if faulty. A high action BG setup with heavy strings makes it hard to play all the ornaments and a technique that makes you sound like WSM is not the best way to approach Irish music (just like it is not the best way to approach classical, Choro, or jazz.) So discussing setup, strings, picks, etc. is an important aspect of technique.

Of course there are different techniques that can be employed. I prefer a "natural grip" with a wrist stroke and a solid base using my forearm on a armrest. My hand is fairly open and my fingers brush the pickguard or the top, but only barely to establish my orientation. The pick is held loosely and I am trying to minimize the movements of my left hand and apply only the amount of pressure needed to fret the note cleanly (and I press just behind the fret.) In order to develop good technique you have to pay attention to details and be consistent.

There are other techniques, just go to the Classical section and look up the threads, but the hallmarks are consistency and efficiency. As long as a good tone is produced, technique just has to follow those rules. And it takes a long time to develop such a technique.

The trap in talking about equipment alone is that it always ends up being a list of one-off testimonies that don't add that much to the body of knowledge. The constant threads about picks never do much for me other than to keep me current on what is out there. I have a group of a hundred picks or so that I experiment with whenever I change my setups on my mandolins. Each time I end up with a different pick that satisfies my ear - in fact I use a different pick with each mandolin. So there is no holy grail pick as far as I am concerned just as there is no best set of strings. Each mandolin is different including supposedly similar mandolins. 

Since my experimentation with the lower action and smaller strings is less than a month old, I have not yet settled on a pick for this setup. In three months I may have gone to a .73 Dunlop, part of the fun is in the journey.

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## zoukboy

I tend to use a different pick for each instrument. Rather than being confusing or more difficult it seems to facilitate the transition between them.

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## jmcgann

> It's not about the pick, it's about technique and musicianship.


The music one makes is a combination of the tools (the pick being one) AND musicianship IMHO. Try playing Django style on a Maccaferri type guitar with a .80 pick! Talk a reed player into using a #1 reed instead of a #4...or get Tony Rice to play with .008's...I don't care how great your musicianship is...there IS a difference. #

Of course, "Irish mandolin" can be played with any kind of pick, unless it's not the kind that you use

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## Mandolin-AL

if im playing the tune on the mandolin I use a HIO speedpick it realy brings out the tune.. but when just playing chordsand chugging along in the session I use a Jim Dunlop .73 

AL

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## plunkett5

I am lucky enough to have started playing with a great piper to emulate. Roy Rogers in Phila was a great open and giving guy who welcomed me into the session world. Nothing helped my early attempts to play Irish music than to listen to session tapes of Roy and to try to get that sound on the mandolin. My $.02.

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## Dagger Gordon

There's been a number of mentions of a lack of mandolin role models like Bill Monroe, and that people should listen to fiddlers, pipers etc.

However, if you think about the influential bands playing Irish music in the early seventies (which is when I started getting into this stuff) there is a surprising amount of mandolin playing. 

For example:

Planxty. We know about the huge influence they had on Irish music in general, and of course the mandolin/bouzouki combination was crucial to their sound.

De Danann. #In the early days, before they added a full time accordion there was a lot of mandolin. One of my favourite records is their second album, with ex-Planxty man Johnny Moynihan on vocals, bouzouki and mandolin. On most tracks either Johnny or Charlie Piggott plays mandolin, with plenty more bouzouki from them and Alec Finn.

Boys of the Lough. Not strictly an Irish band, but their early line-up with Robin Morton tended to feature Dave Richardson a lot more than their later albums. I've always enjoyed his mandolin playing on those albums, particularly the live albums. 

Clannad. #Before they became very big with a synth-based sound, they were much more of a string band. Their early Gael Linn albums were beautiful, with quite a lot of mandola from Padraig O Dugain.

The Fureys with Davy Arthur. #Before their chart success with slightly corny songs they were a very good Irish trad band. One summer I saw them twice when they called themselves Tam Lin. Eddie Furey and Davy were very good mandolin players.

The main other band I can think of at the time were the Chieftains, who of course were not a fretted instrument band at all. The Bothy Band would be getting started about then, and it was well before bands like Altan and Dervish were going. This was also a time when Fairport Convention had a big influence, with a lot of mandolin from Swarbrick, Thompson or Pegg. Not an Irish band of course, but nonetheless very influential and they played quite a few Irish tunes.

So in fact, it seems to me that at one time there actually was quite a lot of mandolin influence on the Irish music scene.

I'm sure there are some significant people I've forgotten.

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## Steve L

There has always been great mando family instrument playing on the Battlefield Band's recordings and Jaimie's great bouzouki playing in Kornog. I think a lot of stuff gets overlooked that isn't outright tune playing but great supporting stuff. A lot of the old ballad groups like the Dublin City Ramblers had mandolin in the mix. A lot of people sneer at that music, but it's the first exposure to the idiom for many and there are good songs mixed in with the corn.

The first mandolin player I ever saw was a guy in a Boston area ballad band in the 80's called the Bards named Barney McElhone. He'd play some tunes but mostly follow the melody behind a singer. Obviously made an impression on me.

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## mandocrucian

> I'm sure there are some significant people I've forgotten.


(a mix of English and Irish players......)

Martin Jenkins (Dando Shaft, Hedgehog Pie, Whippersnapper)
Peter Knight (Steeleye Span Mk2-5..)
Terry Woods (Sweeney's Men, Steeleye Span Mk1, The Woods Band, Gay & Terry Woods, The Pogues)
Charles O'Connor (Horslips)
Ray Jackson (Lindisfarne, the guy who played on "Maggie Mae")

Dave Swarbrick, of course with Fairport Convention, but also his pre-Fairport albums with Martin Carthy. He played fiddle mostly, but there are a few mandolin tracks on each record, and on a few of these, the track has only mandolin and Carthy's vocals. These _expositions_ in mandolin accompaniment are right up there with things Irvine has done, but, pre-dating Planxty by several years. And then there was his *Rags Reels & Airs* instrumental album which was split evenly between mandolin and fiddle.

From players I've talked to from the UK, Swarbrick probably had as much of a (mandolin) impact over there in the 60's and early 70s, as Grisman had in the US among the BG/newgrass listeners. (It was Swarb & Thompson (and Renbourn) that got me playing, although if I could have initially gotten anything besides a screech out of a fiddle I probably would have bought a fiddle instead of my first mando). #And Fairport's influence was far greater than their #acutal sales figures. And it wasn't just the Brits and Euros (Fungus, Rum), but people like Los Lobos, and Mike Doucet that had those records and thought, _"We should do with_ our _local music what Fairport has done with theirs."_

BTW, I first learned _"The Teetotaller" ("Temperance Reel")_ off Dick Gaughan's first solo album *No More Forever* (he played some mando on that one instrumental medley track). Though he's known for his singing and guitar playing, he certainly could do a good job on 8-strings. 

Niles Hokkanen

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## Uncle Choppy

> Martin Jenkins (Dando Shaft, Hedgehog Pie, Whippersnapper)


What a stunning band Whippersnapper were! 

I love Martin's playing (mandocello and mandolin) and singing and it's nice to see him get a mention here. 
I recently picked up a copy of his solo album "Nov Jhivot" which I've really enjoyed.

Brendan

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## Steph

I think I agree with Niles - but then we have spent several hours talking about early mandolin influences in the "Celtic" music world.
My first recollection of mandolins being used in UK folk music was in the Corries where they used mandolin and bandurria to accompany songs - don't remember any straight tunes. Around that time Swarb was playing with The Ian Campbell Folk Group and featured a few instrumentals, after that for me it was The Incredible String Band - Robin Williamson played just about everything you could imagine. Then it was really Planxty and the Battlefield Band from there, but Planxty never seemed to place too much emphasis on mando as a lead in tune sets - they had a piper for that. The Battlefield Band did a few instrumentals - Ged Foley on The Hurricane comes to mind.
Perhaps the mandolin has never really been accepted as a lead instrument in Irish music as played by most bands, appears it's more popular with Scottish players - that seemed to be the trend in Aiden's stillborn "Irish Mando" project.
Can't finish without mentioning Davey Johnson - fantastic player who ended up with the gig as Elton John's guitarist - not too shabby. If you ever get the chance - listen to a tune called Sponge - a souped up version of The Walls of Liscarrol.

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## Dagger Gordon

Forgot one of the most obvious. 

Barney McKenna of the Dubliners. Did any of the other Dubliners also sometimes play mandolin?

There were a number of Scottish players who were in various bands which popped up in the mid Seventies. Brian McNeil used to play a lot of mandolin in the early Battlefield Band. There was a good player called Alan Barty who used to accompany Archie Fisher, and a very good guitarist and singer called Brian Miller who made a record with fiddler Charlie Soane who was also a good mandolinist.

Mike Ward, who played fiddle with the Tannahill Weavers, recorded some very interesting fingerstyle mandolin in a group called Alba, which also included the late Tony Cuffe and Sean O'Rourke of the JSD Band.

There's a few others such as Nick Keir of the MacCalmans (who got me started actually) and Gordon Menzies of the Gaberlunzie. These may well be unfamiliar names in the US, but Scottish readers will know they have been around the Scottish scene for many years.

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## Steph

Gaberlunzies! - thanks Dagger I was racking my brains last night trying to remember the name - I saw them in Ullapool (partyed with them afterward in the hotel bar) in the early 70's, remembered they played a guitar shaped mandolin - went to their their web site and there is that mandolin in the main photograph - any idea who made the mando?

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## Dagger Gordon

Haven't a clue. Saw them at a camp site in Embo once. 

I arrived just as they were taking a break. I watched in amazement as they sold cassettes and videos (pre CD time) for about half an hour solid. They must make a fortune at these kind of gigs.

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## kmmando

That may have been a Hoyer mandolin. Malcolm Jones and Charlie Soane both had them at one stage, if my memory serves me right. I tried one once and it seemed to have about 6 inches from the strings to the soundboard - odd thing altogether but quite sweet.

Thanks for the call Dagger, I'll try and return it tonight after I've been out to buy a new Hoover with the missus! Could take a while!!
Kevin

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## mikeyes

> there are not very many role models is still valid, especially since the recordings mentioned are either out of print or not very prominent.


*cough* no Irish music (aside from, briefly, the Pogues) has been "prominent" if you mean "sold as much as even a slightly popular country music record", and certainly not on the levels of "sold as much as a swearing teenager with a drum machine" modern stuff

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## danb

Oops.. what the heck.. I seemed to have accidentally pressed the edit button on Mike's post. Dang sorry about that, Mike's real point got eaten in the process.. Mike can you please repost and I'll delete my mistake 

Sorry about that, geez..

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## mikeyes

Goodness, it is hard to re-establish the feel of posts without an older copy.

My basic point is that there are other musics such as choro, jazz, and classical that have a tradition because there are prominent and seminal players somewhere in the past who have set the tone for the use of the mandolin in their field. Those records are, for the most part, still available for people to listen to and there are current musicians who draw from that well.

In Irish music this does not seem to be the case. While there have been a number of examples mentioned, they are all from 20-30 years ago and have not endured in any way (just try to find most of those albums mentioned) and those present musicians on this list who remember them had to make an effort to do so.

In contrast, if you ask me about my influences in Irish tenor banjo, I could not only name off a dozen past and present musicians, but have their albums on hand in CD form for the most part.

Irish mandolin role models simply don't exist in large numbers or even small but influential numbers. I am sure there are reasons for this, but I suspect that no one has taken the instrument seriously until very recently. (I don't count bouzouki or other large coursed instruments in this dialogue because they have a different feel and different techniques are used with them.)

I did mention a flame proof suit in the deleted message  

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## mandocrucian

> _Besides, if you have to rack your brains for examples in a field in which you are an active participant and love dearly, then those examples probably did not contribute that much._


Mike, I've got a question for you:

When (year) did you start playing music, and when did you get into the Irish stuff? #

If you are going to speak with "authority", I'd like to know what your background and credentials are. Your Cafe profile lists your interest as _"Bluegrass, Irish Music, Irish Tenor Banjo"_, but I couldn't find much else out bio-wise, even on the _Light of The Moon_ band webpage.

Obviously you already have your mind firmly made up regarding your thesis, so why is the topic up for discussion if you don't want to hear any other views on it?

As far as the influence of those "dinosaurs" of 20-30 years ago, chances are you wouldn't even be playing that music without the popularizing influences of The Dubliners, Fairport, Planxty, Bothy Band, Sweeney's Men etc. etc. etc. #If those folks were not a direct influence on you, that's too bad (and maybe you should hunt up some of those records - and a lot of them are in print on CD), but they probably were an influence on the next lot of players and the ones you may have been listening to in Minnesota.  

NH

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## mikeyes

By the way, the message quoting me under my name above San's message is really Dan's. 

So to answer that message, I will point out that by "prominent" I mean to other mandolinists. If you go to the Grisman produced CD collection you will see what I am talking about in other fields. These instrumentalists are not household words to most of us, but if you are into choro or jazz, they are wonderful to listen to because of the ideas and originality that they bring. 

There are original and interesting Irish mandolinists out there (or perhaps I should say "Celtic" because a lot of them are Scottish or American) but they are just now coming to the attention of the rest of us. 

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## mikeyes

Niles,

I am not speaking as an authority, just posing a question. I am having a hard time finding an historical trail of Irish mandolin players who set the base for the use of the instrument. I am not saying that there are none, just that they are hard to find, and that there are no early mandolin players as influential to mandolinists as the early banjo players were to banjo players (and they are often the same people.)

This is not a criticism of the earlier mandolin players, but an inquiry as to whether there were significant influences from that era. One of the hallmarks of the influential players that I mention in the other fields is that they are referred to by the players in those fields either in the new players' own styles or in print, etc. 

I think that the mandolin had been relegated to a status of near insignificance in the recent history of Irish music and that there is a lot of room for growth. In addition, I think that that process has begun, but only fairly recently.

To be fair, Strings Attached by Mick Moloney (also one of the early banjo players) is influential, especially since it is still in print. But where are the others?

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## Paul Hostetter

Did Andy Irvine ever cease to be influential? Or is he not Irish enough?

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## zoukboy

> Did Andy Irvine ever cease to be influential? Or is he not Irish enough?


Of course Andy has never ceased to be influential. Not even for a moment, but I don't think he's an example of what Mike is talking about because he is not primarily a tune player. He is certainly capable of it and I have heard him do it brilliantly, but if I understand Mike correctly, he is looking for exemplars of traditional Irish tune-playing.

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## Steve L

My understanding of what Mike is saying is that there doesn't appear to be a line of "Celtic" mandolinists playing tunes the way there is a line from Charlie Christian to Tal Farlow, Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis, Jim Hall, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, John McLaughlin, Pat Martino, John Scofield, etc. in jazz guitar. And I think he's just wondering why that seems to be the case.

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## Paul Hostetter

Fair enough. But I've seen him over the last year or so with both Mosaic and with Patrick Street and he was kicking butt as an instrumentalist. 

Does anyone but me remember a band called How To Change A Flat Tire? Their quartet featured two mandolin players, Jim Cowdery and Jim Martin, who I remember had an astonishing right hand. Maggie, the fiddler, is still around and gigging, I've no idea what happened to the rest of them. I think Jim Cowdery went into early music.

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## keithd

The classic (eponymous) album that Andy Irvine & Paul Brady made together has some really nice Irish session tune on mandolin: Fred Finn's, Sailing into Walpole's Marsh, Little Stack of Wheat, etc. But I think, at least on some tracks, it's Paul Brady playing the straight tunes (as opposed to Irvine's amazing arrangements on the songs); it has the same staccato feel as Brady's tune playing on guitar. This CD is from 1976:

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## keithd

Another, more recent, recording with some great (if very different) mandolin playing is Declan Cory with the Josephine Marsh Band (and Josephine rocks too) CD, I can Hear You Smiling. I especially love track 5, The Egg / A new Day / Paddy Kelly's Reel:

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## keithd

Also, at the Tionol in St. Louis last April, among the amazing group of performers was Dennis Cahill, playing mandolin, not guitar. And, for gear heads, he was playing a Phil Crump, Masple/Spruce mandolin that sounded amazing (better than the Collings A I've heard him perform with before). I had the pleasure of meeting Mike Keyes there and having some tunes with him; what did you think of Dennis' playing Mike? Interesting that he's not a banjo player, but he defenitely has a different sound & technique than other mandolininsts I hear. I'm not sure if he's recorded his mandolin playing yet...

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## mandocrucian

Irish mando playing.....

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## mikeyes

Keithd,

I loved Dennis Cahill's mandolin playing. I hope he does record. And thanks for the pointers to the other CDs.

It was a pleasure to play with you, too.

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## keithd

Speaking of gear, what was the consensus; is Andy Irvine playing a Gibson A-3 or a capoed mandola? And, does that look like a Joe Foley mandolin that Declan Cory has there...?

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## zoukboy

> Irish mando playing.....


Ah... Rory Gallagher. I'm dating myself here but I remember seeing him on "Don Kirshner's Rock Concert" show on TV back in '73 or '74. Boy could he *play*

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## zoukboy

> My understanding of what Mike is saying is that there doesn't appear to be a line of "Celtic" mandolinists playing tunes the way there is a line from Charlie Christian to Tal Farlow, Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis, Jim Hall, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, John McLaughlin, Pat Martino, John Scofield, etc. in jazz guitar. And I think he's just wondering why that seems to be the case.


I agree with this but I think we're courting imprecision if we rely on the "Celtic" rubric too much. Of course we all know what is meant by the term but when trying to be specific about music it is not much help.

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## zoukboy

> My basic point is that there are other musics such as choro, jazz, and classical that have a tradition because there are prominent and seminal players somewhere in the past who have set the tone for the use of the mandolin in their field.


Yes, but the difference in Irish trad music seems to be a paucity of players who have picked up on the developments of the few influential players who have come before.




> In contrast, if you ask me about my influences in Irish tenor banjo, I could not only name off a dozen past and present musicians, but have their albums on hand in CD form for the most part.


I think that speaks to the popularity and perhaps the utility of the tenor banjo with Irish trad music as opposed to the influence of our mando progenitors.

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## Paul Hostetter

> Speaking of gear, what was the consensus; is Andy Irvine playing a Gibson A-3 or a capoed mandola?


Keith - it _has_ to be an A-3 mandolin because there was no Style 3 mandola.

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## zoukboy

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> Speaking of gear, what was the consensus; is Andy Irvine playing a Gibson A-3 or a capoed mandola?
> 
> 
> Keith - it _has_ to be an A-3 mandolin because there was no Style 3 mandola.


Andy did play a (black) Gibson mandola in the '70s and '80s but as was mentioned last week by DanB he is playing an A3 on the "Blacksmith" video on YouTube. So he must have played both at various times. He had the mandola the first time I saw him in '83.

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## danb

yeah going purely on mando-geek ninja skills here.. that inlay only appeared on A3s. The top doesn't look to be a white finish, so probably a 1910-1914 range one..

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## Dagger Gordon

When Zoukboy says there is a paucity of players picking up on the developments of a few influential players, I think he summarises what I meant when I tried to show how many mandolin players there were in those bands of the early seventies.

Despite there being the presence of these mandolins in the seventies, it seems to me that the long-term result has more been a huge rise in the numbers of CBOMs (which were largely unheard of before the early seventies), tenor banjos and of course a new approach to guitar playing, particularly the use of alternate tunings to accompany Irish music.

I should think many people who started playing mandolin after hearing Planxty etc already played guitar. It would be a question of finding out whether the guitar technique they already had would be most effectively transferred to mandolin or if they found other instruments like the bouzouki, banjo or guitar were what worked best for them in playing Irish stuff.

I think it probably is true to say that there have been disappointingly few people who have decided to major on mandolin. The bouzouki, banjo and Celtic guitar gain has to some extent been our loss.

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## POB

> does that look like a Joe Foley mandolin that Declan Cory has there...?


It does and it is. Declan has a couple of mandolins and a bouzouki all made by Joe Foley and all excellent instruments.

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## Steve L

Roger, I put the word Celtic in quotations in my post because I agree with you. It seemed to fit the context at the time as Scottish, British, and Cape Breton players had entered the conversation, but in general I try to avoid it.

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## mandocrucian

> _I think it probably is true to say that there have been disappointingly few people who have decided to major on mandolin. The bouzouki, banjo and Celtic guitar gain has to some extent been our loss._


This really isn't surprising. If your mandolin is continually being drowned out by other instruments the logical way to be heard (and the easiest from a playing standpoint) is to grab the tenor banjo. You could get a fiddle, but that requires a lot more practice time to get a decent sound out of it. Or opt for versatitlity and a lot more employment with the guitar.

Given that same group session conditions, of course the mando ornamentation is going to go the tenor banjo route of picked triplets - it's the _only_ thing that is going to cut through the sonic racket. You can use a heavily slurred way of phrasing and slurred ornaments, but unless you are doing it in a sparser environment, it's not loud enough.

Vocal Accompaniment - The lower the register, the easier it is to back up the vocals. #You can do it on a mandolin, but it is a lot trickier to pull it off on a mandolin than it is on an OM or cittern, or even mandola. And, if you are doing it on a mandolin, having a guitarist or other lower instrument can render it unecessary. #The ear hears backup from the bottom up; it'll will perceive the lower instrument as the (dominant) chordal/rhythm instrument first. #In the case of Planxty where you had an exceptional mandolin player (accompaniment) with an extremely tasteful bouzouki player with the two become a synergistic unit, it will work. But try putting an Irvine style on top of the "thrash rhythm" guitar strumming...? #Better go to the tenor banjo, or the zouk.

Face it, the mando is a second-class instrument in the food chain. It's too easily dominated on multiple fronts (volume, accompaniment function). It nice for sonic variety - which is why it's a second or third instrument for multi-instrumentalists.

Mandolin can work great in sripped down ensembles or ones with a non-standard lineup. When the top predators are absent, the mando can move up the ladder in the food chain. #But, you've got to be able to play the instrument differently to pull it off - playing the same way you would in a big session isn't enough.

So after you take away the mando players that opt out for other instruments or go the multi-instrument route, what are you left with? The ones that are willing to put up with Jim Crow status (either because of personality or their own musical limitations) or a few stubborn hardheads who are going to do it their own way regardless of what anyone says.

And then someone comes along complaining that the individualistic hardheads that stuck with the instrument aren't conforming to a particular "regional playing style"! #Well, when _mandos have been outlawed, only outlaws (and only a small percentage) will be still be playing mandos._

BTW - almost everything I've said here could be said of the other 2nd string instruments such as Anglo concertina. (Why, oh why, are all those anglo players abandoning it for accordion?)

Niles H

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## danb

When I play an F5 it's easily audible in a session with TB and 2 fiddles

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## stevebenn

I'm just deeply troubled to hear that Roger is now dating himself!

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## danb

He'll probably bring up politics and break up with himself acrimoniously

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## harwilli55

I don't have anything to add to the discussion as is. I do want to say, that threads like this are what's missing from the cafe. 

Kudo's to all who are participating and thank you !!!! I am enjoying and learning more from this thread than just about any I have read   

I hope this trend continues and fires up the thoughtful and thought-provoking citizens of the cafe.



Harlan

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## zoukboy

> He'll probably bring up politics and break up with himself acrimoniously


Ah, I acrimoniously broke with m'self long ago.. ;-)

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## zoukboy

> When Zoukboy says there is a paucity of players picking up on the developments of a few influential players, I think he summarises what I meant when I tried to show how many mandolin players there were in those bands of the early seventies.
> 
> I think it probably is true to say that there have been disappointingly few people who have decided to major on mandolin.


Yes, Dagger, I think you are right on there.

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## zoukboy

> When I play an F5 it's easily audible in a session with TB and 2 fiddles


Yeah, but then you're playing an F5. I'd rather play a good TB. ;-) (Ducking and running for the hills....)

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## zoukboy

> Roger, I put the word Celtic in quotations in my post because I agree with you. It seemed to fit the context at the time as Scottish, British, and Cape Breton players had entered the conversation, but in general I try to avoid it.


You and me, Steve. Thanks.

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## jmcgann

> You and me, Steve.


 That'd be many of us- "Celtic" has become a weird generic label that folks seem to think encompasses everything from Windham Hill type music to Riverdance and beyond- including lots of rock music that frankly has sod-all to do with the traditional music of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany, Cape Breton etc.

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## zoukboy

> That'd be many of us- "Celtic" has become a weird generic label that folks seem to think encompasses everything from Windham Hill type music to Riverdance and beyond- including lots of rock music that frankly has sod-all to do with the traditional music of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany, Cape Breton etc.


Yes, not to mention that those musics aren't *that* similar anyway. "Celtic" as applied to music doesn't make much sense, unless you run a record label. Its real value as a term is when it's used to describe a language group.

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## Bren

This is a really interesting thread to read. It's also very interesting to see so many great players conversing but I hope you don't mind if I poke my nose in again.
The first "Irish" mandolin I heard. I think, was the mandolin on Clancy Brothers recording of "Leaving of Liverpool". I think it might have been Mike Seeger, hence the quotation marks. I think John Sheahan also played mandolin on Dubliners recordings as well as Barney - there are two mandolins on "Boolavogue" I think.
In fact I'd say that the first slew of Irish/Scottish or even Australian traditional recordings I heard in the 60s and 70s all featured mandolin prominently, so much so that I thought that the mandolin was a well-established instrument, a leading instrument even, in this kind of music. Perhaps it was rock generation or 60s folk revival guitarists adapting their plectrum skills to a melody instrument, in the first wave of new trad or folk-rock bands? Then as people got deeper into the music, well-known bands featured "older" instruments...?

I think Dagger has named all the early ones I had heard , and a few I hadn't, in an earlier thread. 

Another one I heard a lot in the 70s, Louis MacManus, might have been more influential if he had recorded more and travelled more outside Australia perhaps

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## danb

> Originally Posted by  (danb @ Sep. 08 2006, 10:07)
> 
> When I play an F5 it's easily audible in a session with TB and 2 fiddles
> 
> 
> Yeah, but then you're playing an F5. I'd rather play a good TB. ;-) (Ducking and running for the hills....)


Yes Roger, I admit that the technique on an F5 can be tricky to master

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## zoukboy

> Originally Posted by  (zoukboy @ Sep. 09 2006, 03:29)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by  (danb @ Sep. 08 2006, 10:07)
> 
> ...


It's not the technique I was referring to, but the sound.

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## danb

I think we both know perfectly well what you are referring to!! 

OK, a long-standing friendly teasing discussion Roger and I have had cresting the tip of it's iceberg here!

Truly this is a sideshow of a topic in and of itself.. but you won't hear many Irish players play an F5. Luke Plumb & John McGann are notable exceptions.. some of the London guys I know will play with an F5 from time to time. 

If you are used to an oval-holed instrument, an F5 can produce some pretty blunt/clubby tone. It took me quite a while of soaking them up to get nice sounding notes out of them (actually this is where Roger & I have our difference of opinion, that an F5 can produce "nice" tone!). They don't sound very good at all with the tissue paper picks the tenor banjo guys use, you just get nothing out of an f5 unless you drive it with a minimally medium gauge pick or so.

What was the Bill Monroe quote? "You've got to whip it like a mule" ?

One set of opinions I maintain in my head is that there is a "tenor banjo" style of mandolin playing and a "mandolin style". The "Tenor banjo" style is easy to spot- triplets all over the place, sparks flying off the bridge, and generally very little in the way of dynamics, sustain, sliding notes, etc. That is to say, mostly banjo technique being used on the mandolin for a difference in tone. Often the mandolin will sound a bit strained.. TB guys often pick at "11" on a scale of 1-10 with those thin little picks.

What I would call "mandolin style" is much more varied, tricks that work on mandolin but not banjo.. more left hand work with multiple pull-offs, slides, chords, etc. The staccato purity of the banjo doesn't work on the mandolin because it doesn't start out that loud. 

OK, so my opinion is that an F5 has a wider dynamic range (the difference in volume between soft & loud playing), is much more sensitive to pick position than an oval-holed one (a narrower sweet spot to pick for the optimal tone), can produce more bass if you use a heavy pick, etc etc. I think Bluegrass players in general use more of the different sounds on a mandolin than TB-style Irish players. Generally they are used to a lighter touch, they don't have to play hard to get volume.

I definitely have a lot of mongrelized influences on my playing, I learned a lot of my initial sounds from players who'd mix Breton, Irish, Scottish, Old-Timey, contra dance music, Celidh & set dance playing, etc, so I certainly don't claim what I do is "Irish" in terms of using f-holed mandolins. Then again, I think there is pretty short history of mandolins being used in Irish music anyway, and also.. the music is alive, and change is part of the norm!

My story that's kind of unusual is that I have had a lot of different isntruments pass through my hands lately, and have had some time on the Loars etc. Playing on the couple of Loars I was lucky enough to borrow showed me that it really takes a while to "get" a great instrument. You need some time on those to find out how to get tone out of them and play in different volumes, dynamics, etc. Playing on a couple of Loars was like using a training mandolin- you get huge positive feedback out of them when your technique is right. Once you learn that, you can apply it back to instruments that don't give *as much* feedback when you play them right. 

This experience also applies to oval-holed mandolins. A really fine instrument owned by a friend of mine is an oval-holed F4. It took me quite a while of playing it to get a really nice sound out of it, it's trickier to find the right spot to pick, the right velocity, the type of pick to use, all that stuff.

So anyway, I think that playing that Loar was a great training camp for my right hand, which was pretty clumsy and picking too hard prior to that experience. Since then, I've found that F5s in general sound better to me when I play them now. And I do think they "do more" than oval-holed mandolins in terms of dynamics, though I also think that oval-holed ones often record better. If I've been playing an oval-holed one for a while, I sound worse on an F-holed one and vice-versa.

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## GBG

Paul Kelly plays an F5. Listen to him in the MP3 section of this website.

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## Dagger Gordon

It's worth remembering that the comparisons are not solely between tenor banjo Irish influences on the one hand and F5 bluegrass on the other.

Simon Mayor, whose technique and tone are exceptional, always seems to me to be quite classically influenced. He is certainly an important figure in British mandolin playing, which I'm sure has some influence in Ireland.

The influence of certain guitarists has been considerable in the mandolin world. For instance, I think Dan Crary's playing has had more impact on string players in Britain and Ireland than you might suppose. And indeed, a couple of weeks ago I heard the wonderful Scottish harp player Savourna Stevenson do an amazing imitation of Bela Fleck's banjo.

The influences from America on 'the old world' are often not what you expect them to be, and that is almost certainly true of many Celtic mandolinists, who probably listen to a wider range of music than just fiddles and pipes.

And or course one of the guys who is most often cited as a major influence on Irish mandolin - Andy Irvine - was himself an unlikely mixture of Eastern European folk and Woody Guthrie, which he very inventively grafted onto trad Irish and changed it forever.

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## Chadmills

Vey interesting post Dan, much appreciated.
Tom

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## danb

Yes Dagger, absolutely. I guess my point is that there is a "tenor banjo player's 2nd instrument" style of playing and then there is something else, in fact many somethings else. F5s weren't originally bluegrass instruments, they were designed for concert solists playing largely classical or popular dance music in the 30s. I think they sound fantastic for classical pieces like you say. 

It wasn't until Bill Monroe picked up a used F5 in a barbershop some years later that the Scottish & Irish-influced Appalachan music found it's way into Bill's fusion of Gospel, Old-timey, and adrenaline. Bluegrass is certainly around in the London scene- there are some great regular jams, and many of the players from those circulate into the Irish music scene too. *Most* sessions that I go to someone sings an American or Bluegrass song at some point in the evening

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## zoukboy

> (actually this is where Roger & I have our difference of opinion, that an F5 can produce "nice" tone!).


Dan, my friend, I don't think that's a fair characterization of what I've said at all! I have never, *ever* said that an F5 can't produce "nice" tone. That would be a ridiculous statement given all the fantastic players who use them.

My point is that I don't prefer the way Irish traditional music sounds on them - whether I'm playing one or someone else is. It's just not the sound I associate with Irish mandolin. And lest you think it has something to do with the scroll, it doesn't. I like (Irish music on) F2s and F4s but tend not to like (it on) f-hole A models. If I played Bluegrass or Jazz or Dawg music I would nab the nearest F5 I could (afford). 

"Tone" is mostly in the hands and heart of the player. An exceptional player can sound just like himself on a variety of instruments and doesn't rely on any particular one or type for his personal sound.

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## Dagger Gordon

I'm not sure many British/Irish players really think about the differences between F5s and anything else that much. Oval or round hole mandos by such makers as Jimmy Moon are much more readily available and are cheaper, so that's what people are likely to use. I think you'll find that they often simply have no idea that such instruments are not meant to be much good for bluegrass.

That's true of myself. I got my Sobell because I'd seen his instruments played by lots of Scots musicians.
Then in 1995 I decided to buy an old Gibson on a trip to the States. Now bear in mind this was well before I started logging onto Mandolin Cafe and became much more au fait with the various models there are. I had seen pictures of Andy Statman and Red Rector with oval Gibson models and assumed they were just as good as F models, and at the time I wasn't aware of the difference in price.

Anyway, I tried a number of Gibsons in Guilford, Conn, without knowing the cost of any of the instruments I was playing. I suppose these must have included some F models but I'm not sure.
Anyway, the one I liked best was a 1914 oval holed Gibson. I was surprised (and delighted) to find it was the cheapest instrument I tried, so I bought it.
If I knew then what I know now, I guess I might have approached things differently. 

My point is that I'm not at all sure people generally analyse things to the extent we do here on the Cafe.
Most people find a mando that they like and can afford and that's all there is to it. Therefore you find such a selection of mandolins in the the hands of players in Ireland and elsewhere.

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## danb

Hah, Agreed Dagger. I don't think of myself as normal in that regard, I certainly spend more time on the minutae of instruments than sane people do. When I start banging on about years of manufacture and details of individual instruments in sessions I get looks from most of the players like I'm some kind of bizzare fetishist.. which I suppose I am! I really do think that a fine musical instrument is nothing short of magic. 

Back to the whole F5 thing.. I think that good instruments will direct & lead you in certain ways, in the sense that they respond differently to different touches, so the techniques that sound great on your mandolin are more likely to become a part of your style etc. Playing an F5 generally leads you 180 degrees from the direction you were heading in if you came directly from an oval-holed Gibson A or similar, so it can be a fairly odd experience. I felt that I was re-learning how to pick when I had an F5 in the house. They do produce very different sounds oval vs f-holed. 

The sound I like to *hear* is the same as what I like to *play*, so when I get a real kick out of playing an F5 at home, I'm likely to bring that same sound out to a jam etc. 

At the end of the day, this is all just a really elaborate way of describing (and justifying) my personal preferences!

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## jmcgann

> My point is that I don't prefer the way Irish traditional music sounds on them


Sorry about that, Roger!

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## POB

I'm part of the already-mentioned phenomenon of Irish musicians who primarily play larger-bodied instruments. In my case, the large instruments are guitar and bouzouki. My mandolin playing is strictly at home at the moment, although I intend to work on my playing a bit and take it out more.

As to why the mandolin isn't more established in Irish music at this point, I'd be inclined to think that there's a kind of "It's very nice but..." factor at work, from a couple of perspectives. 

First, there's the perspective of the tradition (sorry, The Tradition  ): It's a relatively new instrument in a tradition whose cornerstone instruments (pipes, fiddle, flute) have a totally different, pretty much vocal, articulation to them - sustain, microtonal freedom etc. So, the mandolin arrives into Irish music, it doesn't just slot straight in - it has to make some modifications to the music because it can't do a lot of the stuff that up to this point is fairly intrinsic to the music. Well now, there's nothing wrong with that IMHO, but many musicians are not innovators and it's easier to learn the fiddle when you have an established style and loads of mentors to learn from. "It's very nice but I don't quite know what to do with it..."

Okay, so how come the button accordion or banjo, also newcomers to the tradition, have taken hold and acquired a recognisably Irish accent? Well, those guys have one thing to offer that the mandolin doesn't - volume. I know you can get serious volume with good technique from a good mandolin, but you can still get more volume with rubbish technique from a rubbish accordion. Sad but true. Since the pub session has been the main platform for Irish music over here for quite some time now, volume is an issue. "It's very nice but I can't quite hear it..." 

Here's one I'm not completely sure about...YMMV...a fair amount of people I've met down the years aren't hugely enthusiastic about the actual sound of the mandolin as applied to Irish music. (They've said this to me in my capacity as a guitar player, I hasten to add - nothing to do with my mandolin-playing, I swear  ) Possibly due to being exposed to unremarkable mandolinists who have to sacrifice tone and fluidity in order to get volume on plywood mandolins, I don't know. "It's very nice but it gets a bit harsh after a while..." 

Probably getting into a chicken and egg, supply versus demand thing, but it's bloody hard to buy a decent mandolin over here. You won't walk into a shop in Galway, Dublin or wherever, and see a wall full of good mandolins. Plenty of plywood things, but for a good machine you have to go to one of the few luthiers that make them around here. (Joe Foley in Dublin is one of the best-known, and rightly so). Much easier to buy an intermediate-level accordion or banjo off the shelf (with all the implications that has for the economics of the situation). "It's very nice but where will I get one..." 

Now then, this post is very nice but I'm getting hungry.

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## mikeyes

Speaking of Chicken and Eggs (the chicken came first according to some news article I read, it only makes sense), if there are no mandolins that sound good, then the solution is to have someone build a good sounding loud mandolin. This is what happen to the bouzouki from what I read. The original Greek bowl backs were not as suitable as the later Irish and English built ones. In fact they evolved into a different instrument much like the mandolin did from the Italian style to a (often carved)flat back form.

I have a Weber Bighorn that I am told is very loud (I can't tell because I am usually behind it, but I can't tell if my F5 is loud, either, for the same reason) and it definitely has a different sound. I am still in the process of learning how to play it.

One of the features of the round hole vs. F hole debate is that each instrument requires a significantly different technique to play and get the best sound. I think that Dan B. has touched on some of these issues: the size of the sweet spot, the best tone of each instrument, and issues of setup. There is no question in my mind that you can set up most (some?) O/D hole instruments for better playability without sacrificing tone but you do lose volume whereas F hole instruments require a higher action to get the full tonal range . This makes a big difference not only in how you play the instrument but also how you can play ornaments, etc. 

As for tone, Tommy Peoples book, Fifty Irish Fiddle Tunes, says (just to invoke a little authority into this discussion): "In the Irish tradition, however,the fiddler does not seek the sharp qualities of the classical player, but rather aims for the softer tone by bowing the instrument closer to the fingerboard. There is no absolute standard, and the regional variations are endless." (This was written by Molly McAnailly and, I assume, approved by Tommy Peoples.) This opinion may also apply to mandolins, although it is a big stretch, and this may be what Roger L. is talking about.

I can see why Pádraig might have a problem if the only instruments he can get are either plywood or nice sounding flat top instruments that have no volume. But some of the early Army-Navy style instruments from Flatiron have monster volume. I can't figure out why since they are only two inches thick  but they are loud. The instruments are out there if you don't want to go the F5 route.

I like some F5s for Irish music, but that is a personal preference. As the dedicated BG players will tell you, the sound/tone of F5s is all over the board depending on construction and the will of the mandolin gods. I like the Nugget (so I have expensive tastes) sound and wish I owned one, but I also like the varnished Gibson sound which is quite different. The same can be said for tenor banjos and there doesn't seem to be as much concern about them, probably because a wall of banjos (more than two in a session) kills so no one wants to say anything bad about them. 

Part of this discussion is to help define these issues and perhaps help find the mandolins that work best for the music from both playability and tone standpoints. It has opened my eyes.

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## POB

> I can see why Pádraig might have a problem if the only instruments he can get are either plywood or nice sounding flat top instruments that have no volume.


Not exactly what I was saying - people like Joe Foley make wonderful-sounding flat-tops with loads of volume. The two owned by Declan Corey are fine examples and I have an excellent Foley bouzouki. My regular weekly gigging partner has a lovely Davy Stewart mandolin that cuts through just fine. The problem lies in the fact that these instruments are not available off the shelf. 

What I was trying to articulate in a roundabout way is that the mandolin is not exactly the most convenient path for anyone wanting to play Irish music. This means that it hasn't reached "critical mass" where there would be plenty of players, mentors, instruments, recordings etc.

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## mikeyes

Pádraig,

I see what you mean, that is a problem.

That is not true in the States, a lot of stores carry good affordable mandolins on a regular basis and you can go into these stores and play all of them. Part of this dynamic is that there is a broader base of mandolin players here hence a greater availability of better mandolins. I am speaking of Eastman, Kelly, and similar brands that will find themselves in some of the larger music stores. In specialty stores in more musical communities you will also find Weber, Collings, Lebeda, and other small manufacturers (as opposed to single luthiers) available in good numbers. (Spruce Tree Music in Madison, WI for example) and these stores are very player friendly.

I am making an assumption that some mandolins are better for ITM. I could be wrong, or there may be a large number of mandolins that fit the bill (my take on the subject), but what you are saying is that these instruments are not availble in Ireland or GB anbd that is a shame. 

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## POB

That's pretty much it, Mike. I can't speak for the situation in Britain, but here in Ireland, were not exactly blessed with the kind of music shops you guys might take for granted.

I'm also of the opinion that Irish music doesn't necessarily demand flat topped mandolins. The old "good for Celtic" label that I see bandied about seems to me to be a bit wishy-washy and often seems to really be a charitable way of saying "no good for bluegrass". When (if) budget permits, I have every intention of gettng myself a decent A or F model of some sort and getting to know it well enough to see where we might go together. As has already been said, it takes time to "get" these things. I've mentioned before on here about a time when a friend of mine and myself utterly failed to "get" a Gilchrist that we had been kindly given the loan of for a couple of days. (We charitably concluded that it was probably "good for bluegrass"  )

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## keithd

Mike, et al,

As for mandolin types that are "good for Irish tunes" (and I assume we mean mainly session playing), I finally realized that my ear for this had been formed by the best local session players, especially my mandolin teacher, who plays an early 1920's Gibson A model. 

That is really the sound for me, because it's how I first experienced and began to learn the music, with respect to mandolin. I went through two mandolins since starting before I realized this; a Mid Missouri (all mahogony, because I had sold a beloved Martin 00-17 to finance my mandolin habit), then a Martin 2-15 (short scale, f-holes). When I finally had the chance to acquire a teens Gibson A-2, I knew I had found the sound I was looking for.

For the record, the player I'm referring to is Marla Fibish, but I don't think there are any recordings available of her playing (though Marla did record at least one cassette in the 1980's with the group, Out in the Rain, but playing mandola I think. For those who are in the Bay area, Marla hosts a session every (first?) Sunday at he Plough & Stars in San Francisco.

Of course, I would still jump at the chance to check out other types, like a Foley, or the Crump I mentioned above.

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## danb

> The old "good for Celtic" label that I see bandied about seems to me to be a bit wishy-washy and often seems to really be a charitable way of saying "no good for bluegrass".


precisely.

Good mandolins are good mandolins. I don't believe that an instrument that is decent is only capable one one kind of music. That's just silly talk. I find it condescending as well, something that is considered limited to some is suitible for "your music". Bah.

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## keithd

Yeah, as rigid as Irish music can seem sometimes, the Bluegrass (mandolin) sound seems much more narrowly defined, and the exceptions (and I'm not sure that Gibson snakehead players, like Andy Statman and Mike Compton count as exceptions - aren't snakeheads supposed to have that Loar sound too?) prove the rule. 

I don't think that's bad, it just is (for reasons much cited here). Yet even if/as a mandolin tradition develops in Irish music, I don't see any reason why it would, or should, develop any orthodoxy about instrument type or tone. Whereas Bluegrass started with one particular instrument, Irish mandolin playing has started with everything being fair game. 

As Mike Keyes observed (somewhere above), this kind of preference will be formed by having influential CD's out there that might define Irish mandolin playing, that would influence players to take up mandolin, and to copy, or learn from, their style of playing. 

Despite players like Andy Irvine having a huge influence on Irish music, and mandolin family instrument playing in Irish music, it didn't result in a strong tradition of mandolin session tune playing.

Dan, is your new CD coming out soon? Is it mostly mandolin, mostly Gibson, and mostly F-type instruments?

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## danb

Yes, it's still due "soon". There are about 50/50 F5 or f-holed mandos vs oval holed ones. One particular snakehead A is on half the tracks. Soon I hope!

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## Bren

Doesn't Gary Peterson play a "bluegrass" mandolin at least some of the time? And Kevin MacLeod too?
I'd play a Gilchrist if I could afford one!

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## Greg Ashton

This topic is of interest to me because someday I'd like to be good enough to play mandolin in an irish session. Someday - I'm working on it. I do my best to get ahold of any irish trad recordings with mandolin and have a number of the recordings mentioned. 

If we're taking votes, for recorded mando, I think Michael Kerry's the Rocky Road has the most pleasing tone - a Gibson oval, I believe. You could just listen to it all day and enjoy. Some of the other recordings, like Dan's Shatter the Calm are great- they make me either want to jump around or go grab my mandolin and start playing - but (no offence to Dan) I can't leave the CD in the player all day because it can kind of wears my ears out after 60 minutes. In the session environment on the other hand, I think it would be Dan's playing that would really get the heart pumping. So if you were aiming for that critical mass or mass appeal, I think you need one approach for recording and perhaps another for the session.

Secondly, and I could be misinformed here, I beleive I read that Seamus Egan (of Solas) won all-Ireland competions in flute, tenor banjo and mandolin. Leading me to believe that there was some kind of Irish trad competition which included mandolin. If so, there has to be some players over there. Incidentaly, Seamus' mando approach sounds kind of tenor banjoish to my ears. The latest Solas recordings, however, feature him playing a nylon string guitar to unique and wonderful effect.

Lastly, for some really good playing, check out the sound samples of Martin Reese on Peter Coombes website:

http://www.petercoombe.com/Sound.htm

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## jmcgann

Colmhaltas Fleadhanna Ceoil and contest rules (click at bottom of the page).

I didn't know there was a mando category-cool!

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## danb

> Yes, it's still due "soon". There are about 50/50 F5 or f-holed mandos vs oval holed ones. One particular snakehead A is on half the tracks. Soon I hope!


OK, Soon is starting to crystallize. I should be mastered by Mid-October, making a possible Halloween release. 

But then again, I have been at this for 2 years now. I sure want it ready for Christmas though!

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## mikeyes

> I didn't know there was a mando category-cool!


So the ITM mandolin exists offically! So where are the official restrictions?  

Mel; Bay Banjosessions

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## GBG

I notice the rules exclude the banjo-mandolin. Colmhaltas can't be all bad.

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## Rick C.

Tenor banjo style is what they want to hear at the All Ireland, from what I could tell. #A few competitors played the same tunes they'd just played on banjo an hour or so earlier. #Many Mando Cafenians would cringe at most of the instruments played in the All Ireland mando competition, though some of them sounded pretty decent.


 # # # # # Rick

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## mikeyes

Is that Mando CA Fenians? 

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## Rick C.

> Is that Mando CA Fenians? 
> 
> Mel Bay Banjosessions


Heh heh heh...

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## POB

> Tenor banjo style is what they want to hear at the All Ireland, from what I could tell.


I wouldn't even begin to let that fact influence how I want to play. Those competitions are a pet hate of mine (and before anyone asks, I'm not suffering from sour grapes having lost a competition in my youth - I've never entered one in my life).  

Comhaltas has among their ranks some wonderful muscicians, some very dedicated personnel who work very hard for the music, and lots and lots of enthusiastic members worldwide. They have done a lot of good. However, like any large organisation, they also have in their ranks some - let's be charitable - misguided souls. Like any organisation that has some sort of cultural preservation agenda going on, they are prone to the occasional bout of well-intentioned idiocy (and the very occasional bout of mean-spirited holier-than-thou idiocy as well). The backpages of thesession.org and the IRTRAD-L archives have numerous debates, slagging matches, propaganda bursts and dogma barrages on the topic of Comhaltas to keep the average reader bemused for weeks.

It is not unknown for adjudicators at competitions not to even play the instrument they're judging. A mandolin competition judged by banjo players who think they're judging the banjo-lite competition is certainly likely. (Not implying that this was the case for your mandolin competition, Rick. I don't know who was involved there. Neither am I in any way being disparaging towards you or anyone else who competes.)

I heard of a guy who was asked to judge a competition at a Fleadh a few years ago. He grudgingly agreed but on the day of the competition, he found himself playing in the middle of a great session in a pub. He lost all track of time and about an hour after the competition was due to start, one of the Comhaltas organisers, who had been scouring the town for the missing adjudicator, burst in the door of the pub, purple with fury. He pointed a shaking, accusing finger at the fugitive and roared across the session, "YOU! All you're good for is playing music and enjoying yourself!"

Well duh!

Moral of the story: Comhaltas might occasionally miss the point. Nobody should play the mandolin TB style just because that will win a medal in a Comhaltas competition.

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## Bertram Henze

> He pointed a shaking, accusing finger at the fugitive and roared across the session, "YOU! All you're good for is playing music and enjoying yourself!"


  Well, that teaches us not to speak in anger, we might be telling the truth... Back to the essentials: ceol agus craic.

Bertram

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## Rick C.

Padraig,

 Points taken, and right, I have no intention of changing how I play for the sake of a contest. #I will say that those who played in that style did so very well for the most part. #If I were 20 years younger and had unlimited funds, I might do that on 4 tunes and keep going until I placed higher or won, but it's not that important to me. #

 For my own part, I didn't play well enough to edge out those who placed and I knew it at the time, so no sour grapes here. #The competition ran late and I'd been sitting there for over two hours and had to go up cold-- and first. #But after hearing the style the better 15-18 players used, I knew it wouldn't matter if I nailed the tunes just as I had a hundred times in practice.

 One interesting thing, and I've mentioned this to a few people privately is that we came in on the tail end of the O-18 banjo competition. #Just before announcing the winners, one of the judges got up and said, "We are particularly dissapointed in the level of playing in the senior category this year. #Banjo is a rhythmic instrument and should carry the pulse and heart of the music, both of which were sorely lacking in the playing we just heard..."
Wow. #A flute player friend told me the flute judges did much the same thing. #So maybe that's another CCE tradition I didn't know about.

 But right, competing in the fleadh (any fleadh) is a world all its own, and most players in the senior level had been competing for years already and knew what to expect. #I didn't have a clue as to what they wanted. And the banjo style is something I have gone out of my way to _avoid_, so there you have it. #I'm not sorry I gave it a shot, but given the expense I don't think I'd do it again.

 I saw one Foley, and one which appeared to be a Martin A style (but with no name on the headstock), the rest looked to be Chinese/Korean/East European inexpensive instruments. #And none of them would have been heard in a session of any size. #So looking at it from the outside, I don't know how seriously mandolin is taken for ITM even in Ireland. #I should have just taken my National and pinned their ears back with tunes I just happened to like. #Wouldn't have been any worse off!

 And going back to a point earlier in this thread, the F models did sound thin in comparison to the flat tops most of the players used. #


 # # # # # # Rick

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## POB

I like your attitude, Rick. 

I hope you got a chance to play in a couple of sessions as well. In fairness to Comhaltas, the Fleadh does give a great opportunity for people to get together and play music _with_ each other at the informal sessions as much as it puts people playing _against_ each other in the competitions.

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## whistler

Forgive me if I'm reiterating an earlier point - there's a lot of pages to read here, so I might have skipped a line or two.

It seems to me that one of the most important ingredients of Irish Traditional dance music is the rhythm. I think most trad players would agree, it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that....lift. This applies regardless of whether you play fiddle, flute, box or bones. On fiddle, flute, pipes and whistle, ornaments such as rolls, cuts and crans are, at least in part, rhythmic devices. Whilst all these are possible and, if well done, effective on plucked instruments, I don't feel they have the same function - it is unlikely that a roll executed on mandolin by means of hammering-on and pulling-off will have the same rhythmic impact as a succession of cuts and rolls on the fiddle. 

I am not what you would call an 'elite' player (to use a term often seen in discussions on this forum) - I am primarily a session player. Much of the time people don't hear me in sessions, but this doesn't worry me too much, so long as I can hear myself. When they *do* hear me, they don't complain....much. I absorb the music I hear from other players, whatever instruments they play, and then play it back as best I can, altered by the shortcomings of my memory, musical perception and technical ability, and coloured by my sensibilities and emotions. When I am playing together with others, I try to embody the essence of their music in my playing. I play in what might be called 'tenor banjo style' - i.e. I pick every note I play. True, I have been influenced by banjo players, as there are not many mandolin players around to influence me. But I have never owned a banjo. When I borrow someone's banjo for a tune, I play it much as I would the mandolin - you could say I play it in a 'mandolin style'. But the point is, I play in the style I play in because, for me, it is the most effective way to capture the rhythmic nuances in the music of the other players I play with and listen to. I also play the whistle, so I am aware of other kinds of ornamentation, but I can't imagine using them to the same effect on mandolin. 

A few people have made reference to the full potential of the mandolin not being exploited. This is something that cannot be denied, but is it necessarily a bad thing? Surely it is true of every instrument. Is the violin used to its full potential in Irish music? How often do fiddlers go into higher positions, use bowed tremolo, or play _col legno_? Furthermore, the same is true in other musical genres - which is why Nigel Kennedy doesn't sound like Ola Bäckström and Bill Monroe doesn't sound like U. Srinivas. I'm not against anyone trying to discover the full potential of an instrument - I think it is highly commendable - but, for the most part, it seems to me to be surplus to requirement. I always believe that technique is utterly useless unless it is part of a system of musical expression. A crann is as useless to a classical musician as a chromatic scale is to someone whose only notion of music is diaphonic singing, as a pick axe is to a baker. 

I can't remember what all that had to do with mandolins, but hopefully some of you will find the connection.

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## GBG

How DO you manage to hear yourself in a session?

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## whistler

> How DO you manage to hear yourself in a session?


Keep your head down. Also, if you haven't already done so, learn to keep the back of the mandolin out of contact with your body - it can make a surprising amount of difference to the volume.

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## POB

Whistler has made some great points there. 

As was also alluded to in one of Rick's posts earlier, in Irish music the rhythm/pulse/lift is _hugely_ important. This is one of the areas that I most often see people fall down in if they come at Irish music from other genres. For example, someone coming from a Bluegrass background will be used to a very strong rhythmic underlay from the bass and guitar and the mandolin chop. Irish music has evolved primarily as a solo tradition and the melodist has to carry the pulse with them as they play. (The pulse is more subtle than a straight bass-chop-bass-chop rhtythm and that's part of the reason why you'll see people get a bit negative when someone suggests chopping along with Irish music). I've heard lots of players from backgrounds in jazz, classical, bluegrass, etc. play all the right notes in an Irish tune, with great technique, but without the rhythmic feel. It's nothing that can't be learned or absorbed with a bit of exposure, of course. 

Unquestionably, TB style helps out greatly with maintaining the pulse. I think a successful Irish mandoin style can draw from TB style and still place more emphasis on those aspects of the mandolin that make all of us here love it in the first place. Whistler, you probably do that anyway - I'm willing to bet that you coax better tone from a mandolin than someone who plays in a similar style but ususally on a different instrument. 

As regards "the full potential of the instrument", Whistler has talked a lot of sense. I, personally, see no great need to be doing 64th note chromatic runs up the neck. (Which is good because I'd never be capable of doing it anyway). That issue is always going to take you into the "tradition versus innovation" debate that seems intrinsic to any living form of music that has a tradition. It's a hot topic in Bluegrass which is decades old and it's a hot topic in Irish music which is centuries old. I have no interest in that debate - been there, done that, should just have played more  . Let's just say that if it's good music, some people will want to preserve it, some will want to push its limits, everyone finds their own level and no-one should fall out over it.

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## danb

Here's my old article on innovation in traditional Irish music, in case I haven't used up all the punches on my blather card

Very true on the pulse, that's the hardest part to teach, especially to established musicians who already know what they are doing musically. It's more to do with accents and confidence/certainty than simply keeping the beat, isn't it?

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## POB

> It's more to do with accents and confidence/certainty than simply keeping the beat, isn't it?


It is indeed - usually a kind of quiet assuredness rather than a brash over-confidence. It's like hearing a rock band that has a good groove as opposed to one that just has good timing. The really great players in Irish music can play with great pulse while still taking lovely liberties with the melody and phrasing, all without the safety net of a rhythm section.

Also, what's a blather card and where can I get one?

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## Dagger Gordon

Regarding the pulse, etc I always say that a good traditional musician should be able to play for dancing, even if that's not your main interest.

It's worth remembering that many tunes were originally directly connected with everyday activities for country people. 

I recently saw a fascinating talk by the Skye Gaelic singer Ann Martin, where she discussed this in some detail. Probably the best known examples in Celtic music terms are Gaelic waulking songs, but there are others - spinning songs, reaping songs etc. Indeed, she even talked about the different rhythms involved between reaping with a scythe (longer slower motion) and a sickle ( shorter and more frequent).

So what?

Well, we've obviously moved way ahead of that, and I can't think of many activities that go back to those old, old days that are still relevant apart from dancing. If we lose the habit of playing for dancing (it's a different mind-set from playing sessions or arranging for concerts) I think we are arguably in danger of losing our connection with the essence of what makes a country's music 'traditional'. #There is more to it than learning a tune from an older musician. You really need to see that musician playing the tune in the right context.

As I think playing for dancing is one of the few direct connections we still have with the origins of this music, it is important that we know how to do it properly. 

I'm all for progressive approaches to trad music, but before we know where we're going we have to know where we've come from.

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## danb

Yeah, that might be the special something. I guess when you don't see the dancers and their feedback you're missing 1/2 the process. As a listener, you notice when the band doesn't have the other half.

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## POB

While I'm in total agreement that being able to play for dancers is a very important element in the pulse/feel of our music(s), I'm also wary of the argument that the music should _always_ be danceable, even when there are no dancers present. I know that you're not saying that, Dagger, but there are some who do. The fiddle playing of Paddy Fahey is often more reflective than dance-oriented but is undeniably Irish. Tommy Potts would be another, more extreme example, while Martin Hayes would be a more modern (and slightly controversial) example. Similarly, a lot of the big uilleann piping show tunes were played as instrumental showpieces, not dances. But again, the dance music is part of the essential foundation on which these things were built.

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## Dagger Gordon

Irish piping is perhaps a bit different, and so is the harp probably.

Scottish piping is definitely used for dancing, as anyone who as ever been to a Highland Games will tell you.

I'm not saying that it's got to be strictly dance music to be any good - I think you know that - but I bet all the examples you give like Paddy Fahey could do a dance no bother. I think I'm right in saying that's how Martin Hayes started - didn't he play in his Dad's ceilidh band or something like that?

But I do think it helps put an inherent pulse, and indeed lift into your playing whether you're playing for a dance or not.

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## danb

my read of Dagger's comment was that if you've ever played for dancers you tend to get the pulse, and if you haven't you're missing on a big part of it

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## zoukboy

Good points, but as we all know, within Irish music especially there is dance music and then there is dance music. Some of the best music/dancing I ever witnessed was Katherine McEvoy and James Kelly playing for sean nos dancers Mick Mulkerrin and Mairead Casey (with no accompaniment). Pure magic. 

On the other hand, I was a guest performer at a step dancing extravaganza earlier this year and every second of their performance was sequenced to canned music, more like muzak, really, with full theatrical lighting and fog machines. The director of the dance company admitted to me that none of the dancers in that group had ever danced to live music. Incredible, I thought.

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## danb

The fun of playing for dancers is that as the musician you can really make them shine by matching the speed/pace/feel to their abilities. When we'd play for the trinity or cashdel-denehy girls in Milwaukee, that was always a blast.. they'd push us as much as we'd push them

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## mikeyes

One of the reasons that step dancers play to canned music (other than the non-avilability of musicians) is that they are preparing for contests and that all of their "serious" dancing is in those contests. As a result, they dance to very specific tempi which are mandated by the organization that governs the dancing and the schools. Step dancing has evolved from demonstrating local talents (the sean nos style of dancing) to a highly structured, highly regulated form that has little bearing on the historical styles of dancing - this is a controversy you will find in other lists, I have no intention of going in that direction, only to explain why many of the dancers rarely dance to live musicians. 

But in the larger contests, there are live musicians and the best ones are not only right on tempo, but they have the ability to bond with the dancer(s) and make them stay on tempo. Tony Nother may be the best example of this type of musician but there are plenty of others. Playing for these contests, while a lot of work and, frankly, a pain at times, is a worthwhile endeavor that is usually fun and fairly lucrative ($250 a day for one of the larger feis, although that is a full day of playing the same tunes time after time &lt;G&gt;.)

Playing for the exhibitions that the schools put on is more fun. (BTW, each of the schools has a separate set of routines, separate colors - sort of like gangs of bewigged 12 year old girls - and are exclusive. In other words, you can't switch schools without a 6 month hiatus from competition and a letter from the Pope. It is very regulated. There I go again, I promised not to mention all that stuff &lt;G&gt :Wink:  But the exhibitions are designed to entertain and to recruit, so they are looser and everyone seems to enjoy it.

More fun is had in playing for Set Dances or Ceili Dancing. If there are good dancers there, you get tremendous feedback both during and after each dance is over. Some very good bands (Sliabh Notes, for example) love to play for these dances and consider it part of the heritage. Our band does it as often as we can because it keeps us in the pulse and we have the most appreciative audience (mostly adults in this case) that a musician can find. Even more so than other musicians because there is no sense of rivalry, only synergy.

Dance music was one of the bases for ITM, probably the most common and obvious one (also singing, airs, laments, and in the Scottish tradition, work songs such as the milling songs, tec.), and playing for dances is one of the best ways to keep in the tradition. You can be innovative and still have dancers appreciate you, Ceili bands do it all the time (drummers, electronic instruments, etc.) and many of the best ITM musicians out there come from the ceili band tradition. Just not a whole lot of mandolin players &lt;G&gt;



Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## mikeyes

I'd like to address whistler's point about not having to use the full potential of the mandolin. Since I was one of those who brought up the idea, I probably need to clarify my concept of "full potential."

I have a "West Coast" Seamus Eagan tape on playing the TB and the mandolin. #In it he plays a number of tunes on the mandolin and the technique he uses is a duplicate of the TB stuff taught earlier in the tape (as an aside, it is a good tape to learn TB from) but in the process uses virtually no mandolin technique, at least as I know it from other genera of music. #He gets absolutley no tone out of the instrument because he uses the same pick he used on the banjo and played very close to the bridge. #In addition there were few pull-offs/hammer-ons, slides, crosspicking, etc. that I expect to see used by an expert mandolinist. #I do think that you can use these techniques (including cuts and rolls although they are not the same as the violin) to advantage in ITM on the mandolin along with the triplet. #Mandolins don't have the sustain of the bouzouki, but they do have some sustain and the mandolinist can take advantage of it.

The most important critique that I can make of his tape is his lack of good tone. #Simon Mayor has great tone (on an F style instrument, I might add) and while his style is different and not as appealing to me, he uses the mandolin to great advantage. #

If you play the fiddle, you don't need a lot of the specific techniques of the classical player, but classically trained ITM oriented fiddlers always have a great bow hand, tone, and intonation. #It was beaten into them as children and they automatically do it. #I think that a lot of classically trained players tend to be a little too square (by that I mean that they have a tendency to play as written instead of varying the micro-tempi, etc.) but that is probably true of anyone coming from another type of music that they use familiar patterns as they try to learn to play Irish music. #I know that I still tend to use American rythmic patterns if I don't watch out when I play a crossover tune such as St. Anne's Reel or Miss Mcleod's and I am hopeless unless I really concentrate on what the other musicians are doing.

But some of the strengths of the other styles are not antithetical to ITM (e.g. good tone) and can be incorporated into the music. #This is especially true of the mandolin since there is no model used other than the banjo style as far as I can tell. #I see using the banjo style not as a statement of some essential "Irishness" as much as a lack of understanding of the instrument and its potential. 

When the bouzouki and banjo entered ITM, there were players who made some very powerful statements with their instruments, so much so that we can all name those instrumentalists. #(We have done so above.) #While such giants as Andy Irvine play the mandolin, they don't have a dominant presence due to their mandolin playing the way Gerry O'Connor does with banjo. Hence there is not as much emphasis on those aspects of mandolin playing that we see in other styles where there were iconic mandolin players.

In the CCE competitions the banjo style dominates probably due to both the judge's expectations and the generally limited use of the mandolin, limited to triplets technically (so I gather, I am #only going by the descriptions in this thread), and to the same tunes played the same way as on banjo. #While this is fine, it is not exploring the instrument the way other instruments have been explored in ITM.

I think that there is a lot of unused potential that doesn't require going up and down the neck (ITM is mostly a first position music as described by Tommy Peoples, but I think that is changing, too) or doing McReynolds crosspicking, or blues runs, etc. but there is a lot not being used that would suit ITM well. #I believe Roger Landes will agree with this, I will find out soon as he is teaching a class in Texas next month that I will not miss. # (Check out O'Flaherty Irish Retreat)

Over to you, Roger &lt;G&gt;

Mel Bay Banjosessions

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## Bren

Well I'm not much of a player but I can relate to the dance style of playing. There's nothing better than hitting a note on your instrument over here and then seeing someone jump in the air over there as a direct result, as if connected by a string

Padraig or someone up there says it's a fallacy that playing should _always_ be danceable, and I agree. There's nothing better than hearing a good player stretch out and find the inside of a tune.
But it's far more common in sessions I've visited these days to find players, usually but not always young, who've obviously _never_ played at a dance, or if they have, resented the restriction and repetition.

I'm not even talking specifically of Irish music or any other - I'm just an itinerant mandolinier

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## whistler

Of course, there is Irish music that is not, and never was, meant to be danced to - slow airs, pipers' 'pieces', other 'airs' such as those by O'Carolan. #In fact, most Irish 'dance' music played today is meant primarily for listening to. #But I still think that that 'danceability' is a major factor of what draws the listener in. #Even in slower, more reflective renditions of tunes, by players such as Paddy Fahy and Martin Hayes (who, incidentally, both play or played in ceili bands), that underlying pulse is still there, even though it may not be instantly recognisable at a slower tempo. #You can interpret dance tunes in other ways, taking that pulse away completely, and still play good music. #The question is, are you still playing Irish Traditional Music?

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## Dagger Gordon

'taking that pulse away completely, and still play good music'.

Who do you have in mind, or is this essentially a theoretical statement?

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## Bertram Henze

This makes me think of the newer Irish tunes that are played in a very syncopated way. That does not mean, however, that they have no pulse - the pulse is just different, though I am not sure how to dance to that.

Bertram

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## Martin Jonas

One of the (many) good things about the weekend residential course in Wiston Lodge organised by the Lanarkshire Guitar & Mandolin Association was that there was a dance on the Saturday night, with an ad hoc ceilidh band recruited from the course participants. #Standard Scottish country dance repertoire, really. #If I remember right, the band was guitar, bouzouki and about five mandolins. #No fiddles, no pipes, no squeezeboxes (apart from Alan Jones getting out his English concertina now and then). #Worked very well, and yes, I do believe that being able to play for a dance helps a lot with putting the tunes on a solid rhythmic foundation. #It also stops the manic arms race for greatest speed, although I think that's more an Irish than a Scottish thing anyway.

Martin

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## Bertram Henze

> It also stops the manic arms race for greatest speed, although I think that's more an Irish than a Scottish thing anyway.


Well, I think speeding in Scotland's sessions is mainly prevented by the fact that there's always at least one dominant piper present, and the others can do nothing but play along with his pace.
One of the Irish sessions I attend has two or three step dancers; after supersonic tunesets they always complain, but it rarely helps. The fast track players (one of them on mandolin, yes) either want to impress the audience or, more probably, can't slow down because their muscle memory would fail, which is a pity because with the speed the individual rhythm of the single notes (which makes part of that Irish feel) gets lost. Many tricky hornpipes get flattened out into ringtone reels.

Bertram

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## whistler

[/QUOTE]It also stops the manic arms race for greatest speed, although I think that's more an Irish than a Scottish thing anyway.

[QUOTE]

Interesting. I've found that the Scottish players I have played with tend to be on the fast side. Also, pipers often play rather fast. I don't know much about the regional peculiarities of traditional music in Scotland, but in Ireland, the average speed certainly varies from place to place - Donegal musicians (BTW the most Scottish influenced) are famous for being in permamnent overdrive, whilst Clare and Galway musicians typically play at a much more laid back, or 'steady' pace. Of course, wherever you go, there are hares and tortoises - personally, I'd sooner play with the latter.

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## Avi Ziv

> I think that there is a lot of unused potential that doesn't require going up and down the neck (ITM is mostly a first position music as described by Tommy Peoples, but I think that is changing, too)


Interesting. Recently I started thinking that emulating fiddle fingering and technique is not the only way to map out a tune. Of course there is a huge influence there, but the instruments are quite different. More sepcifically - the amount of sound that a fiddler can get when bowing across the E string cannot be matched on the mandolin. I began identifying cases where I'm happier with the quality and flexibility of ornamentation when moving up the neck occasionally. I'm really at the infancy of this "discovery" and I'm sure I am not the first to notice it. However, for me it's been a revelation. To be even more specific - I've been working on a 3-part waltz called Waltz from Orsa, where in the second part there is a lot of back and fourth movement between g-b and f#-a. I found that I can get a lot bigger and complex sound by shifting up for the the b part and playing across the a/e strings and then shifting back down for the c part. I looked up some tunes in the Simon Mayor book and realized that he is mapping tunes on the fretboard to get certain effects and it finally clicked. Now, I don't have Mayor's sound as a goal of mine but I appreciate this aspect of his out-of-the-box thinking. Although emulation is very important, I think that at some point it has to give (a little) way to an instrument-specfiic approach.

Thanks for a most intersting thread
Avi

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## POB

> I bet all the examples you give like Paddy Fahey could do a dance no bother. I think I'm right in saying that's how Martin Hayes started - didn't he play in his Dad's ceilidh band or something like that?


Absolutely! Paddy Fahey was a member of the Aughrim Slopes Céilí Band and Martin Hayes and his late father P.J. were members of the Tulla Céilí band.

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## Bren

> I think speeding in Scotland's sessions is mainly prevented by the fact that there's always at least one dominant piper present


There's seldom a piper present in NE Scotland sessions - it's definitely fiddle country. Some of them play pretty fast sometimes and almost every musician you meet at a session here has played in, or currently plays in, a ceilidh band - that's how they make a few quid, because there's such a demand up here for ceilidhs.It definitely shows in their rhythm but a lot of the young musicians roll their eyes at ceilidh tunes, presumably because they play them so much that they must be bored with them, and want to try something different at a session. I like the dance tempo myself, but then I don't play dances as often as these folk, who are playing dances twice a week sometimes

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## Dagger Gordon

Bump. Too good a thread to lose.

I'm sure many of you have heard a lot more of this kind of thing since Aidan's labour of love finally appeared (and worth the wait! Thanks Aidan.) If you haven't heard it, it slipped out without much fanfare on the 'Getting there' thread.

I'm sure the different styles of players and mandos have given you plenty to talk about.

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## danb

Dagger, are you able to post a picture of your sobell? It's pretty impressive, suddenly it's like Thor's hammer when you hit that low c!

Yes, Aidan's a good lad, great to see that collection of tunes finally out in the world. Here's the link to An Maindilin, the collection of mp3s formerly known as "the glass slipper" in case anyone missed it

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## Dagger Gordon

I'll see what I can do. I'm pretty useless at that kind of thing. By the way, the low string is tuned to D. Far more useful to me than C

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## Dagger Gordon

Bump.

This was a really interesting thread. I see someone new is asking about this kind of thing, so I've revived it.

You should listen to Aidan Crossey's collection free on his Pay The Reckoning site. A lot of good stuff there.

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## Dagger Gordon

Bump in response to a question by Manicmando.

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## jc2

Remember when you're talking about doing other things, that the melody is what it is really all about in trad Irish music. In competition, even the trios must all play the melody all the time. So even though trad has it's charms, you don't often hear the pure dorp of it: even in sessions there will be strummers and other accompaniment. Are mandolins more suited to be solo or very small group instruments?

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## Caleb

Man, this is a great thread. #It should be required reading for anyone intersted in Irish mandolin!

I've been interested in Irish mandolin for about a year or so and it's been an interesting ride, both trying to learn how to play it (which I'm terrible at), and trying to find good CDs to listen to. #

The first real exposure I had to Irish mandolin was at a workshop with Rick C. #Up till then I'd only heard bits and pieces here and there of it, but knew that I wanted to learn more about it. #He told the "class" that it's best to listen to all sorts of other instruments in Irish music to get a "feel" for the music. #I had no clue what he really meant at that point, and for weeks later I still didn't get it. I actually found the entire subject pretty frustrating. But I *do* get it now. #I find myself trying to bring in some of the sounds of other instruments into my playing, and while I'm still mighty green, it's really fun. 

I'll be going to my first Irish music retreat this month and I'm really excited about learning more about this music. #

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## Lou Scuderi

I have to agree, this is a great thread. I've been playing irish trad on my mando for almost 6 years now, but I've had a very strange musical education (Classical cellist, mostly self-taught mandolinist, bagpiper, etc.), so until recently I haven't had many influences specifically on the mando.
@ Slacker,
Are you going to the O'Flaherty retreat in Texas? I play with Dave every Sunday in the local Tucson session, and he's an incredible mandolinist. You'll have a great time, wish I could join you (but being a physics and astronomy major in college means that I am trapped on campus  ).

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## Caleb

> @ Slacker,
> Are you going to the O'Flaherty retreat in Texas? #


Yes, that's the one.

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## JeffD

I haven't read all nine pages so if I repeat someone's point my apologies.

Focus on what the mandolin can do that no other instrument can do. One thing is tremolo. I have had great fun and success playing slower tunes, aires and such, on mandolin with a lot of what my New Mexico friends call "high lonesome" tremolo.

It works really well on a Scots Air like Archibald McDonald of Keppoch, or Limerick's Lament played painfully slow. Perhaps not good session choices, but great performance choices, and certainly the mandolin can do them justice in a way other instruments cannot.

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## Dagger Gordon

Actually tremolo wasn't discussed enough in the 9 pages.

I've just been teaching a mandolin class where we looked at the Scots air 'Mist covered mountains of home'. Using tremolo makes the tune sound much better, and is, as you say, very much a mandolin technique.

I think, on reading over some of the posts for the first time in about a year, that too much time was spent discussing the limitations of the mandolin.

Not being as loud as the banjo in sessions is perhaps the main problem. But the banjo isn't good for airs and lacks sustain. I would say mandolin is a much more versatile instrument.

I think the mandolin suffers as a result of the importance put on sessions, where it is not heard to best advantage.

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## jmcgann

> I think the mandolin suffers as a result of the importance put on sessions, where it is not heard to best advantage.


Very true...and I enjoy sessions, but it's such a 'group organism' that is so different from an performing band with arrangements where the mando can be featured. With a good PA system, all is well in Mandoland!

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