# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Vintage Gibson Shot of the Day (or week)

## danb

Here's a recent close up of a Torch & Wire F4

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## danb

Another shot

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## danb

Here's F4 # 13092, a very late 3-pointer. 

The back on this one is off the scale:

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## danb

Double Flowerpot on the peghead too, only one I know of on a three pointer:

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## danb

Deep carving in the scroll

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## danb

Two pickguard clamps

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## danb

And just a beauty overall..

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## danb

A2z #74106

Here's a nice macro of the black/white binding that is (largely) unique to this model:

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## danb

7 rings round the soundhole..

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## mandopete

Dan,

These photo's are off the scale!

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## danb

A4 #73626

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## danb

Thanks Pete, I've been practicing

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## danb

Unusually early tuning pegs for a snake, normally they are the arrow-end type! Compare my brown snake, 
A #71261 which also has the same smoother peghead profile

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## PaulD

I kinda like that deep carving around the scroll. I hadn't noticed that before, so I went back and looked through the archive. I found this one that I thought had a very interesting scroll carving...Late 3pt F2. Amazing artistry! 

Paul Doubek

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## mandoryan

Is that a replacement fingerboard for 73626 A4? Sure looks like one. Not in a good way either in my opinion.

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## danb

I think 73626 has an original board, very white binding is all. What do you see there that makes you wonder?

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## mandoryan

The little extension doesn't look right. It looks like it was kind of sloppily copied from an original. It could be that it was made originally that way though. I haven't seen enough to really know for sure.

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## danb

This one is similar.. I think it's right..

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## Eugene

Shot of the day (or week)!? There's enough here for a good month!

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## danb

Well I'm hoping to keep piling them in

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## danb

Here's one of the first of the raised Pickguards, with "Patent Applied for" stamp..

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## danb

And here's the clamp, made from modifed violin chin rest hardware..

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## danb

Underside view

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## danb

Almost completely a teens A, except for the "pineapple" tailpiece cover..

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## danb

Oof. I did 55 new images in the archives today, now bringing the total to 4673 pictures of 3172 instruments.

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## danb

Ok folks, this instrument (F4 #5713) is quite literally the reason I got into this whole archiving business in the first place (note the archive logo). These spectacular photos by Dave at Elderly instruments:

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## danb

The Back..

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## danb



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## danb

Senor Torchio:

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## danb

Handel tuners.. appear to have been left natural brass (like the tailpiece cover) which gives a sort of "gold hardware" look..

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## danb



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## grandmainger

Those pics are incredible. It's so har to take good photos of metal parts.

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## danb

yes, I've been in touch with the photographer at Elderly who took them- they are fantastic shots.

I think the brass parts aren't quite as tricky as chrome to photograph, they are more "scattering" of light than those mirror-finish ones are. Still, amazing details. I particularly like the shot of the Handels, the detail on the stamping is nice to see that sharply.

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## kyblue

Wow! Thanks for posting these.

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## danb

Playing with the flash tonight while I had the strings off. Here's a nice shot showing where the FON is on a snakehead..

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## danb

Another nice detail showing the serial that's pencilled under the bridge. The "T" and "B" are markers for Treble & Bass sides. I posted a shot of this once before, but this one came out nicer

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## danb

Kind of a nice view of the tailpiece cover. Stamp looks like it was wearing out a bit?

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## mandopete

Dan - You are the King Of The Camera!

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## Darryl Wolfe

Nice bridge top. It looks like it has some sort of stamp on it

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## danb

Sunken original on the base in this shot, Darryl's saddle on the top. *enormous* difference in tone for the better with the replacement..

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## Darryl Wolfe

Notice how I don't cut the compensations down so low on the saddle. #It may not be exactly/perfectly correct, but I have not heard of one cracking in that lower right corner where the original eventually do. I also cut the wheel relief a shade deeper so that the top will go all the way down to the base

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

Hey Darryl& Dan,

I remember reading someplace, (probally here) that you don't want the saddle resting on the base, keep it raised off the base via the thumbwheels for better vibration transmission (more focused) from saddle-thru the posts- to base- to the the tone bars. B.S.or truth?

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## goose 2

Wow, that's weird. Just last night I was talking to Sharon Gilchrist who is a good picker out of Santa Fe and she has a Gilchrist F-5 made in the 80's that had the exact same headstock inlay and vine that that 3-pointer has. I had never seen the inlay before and now within 24 hours I have seen it on a vintage gibson and a modern gilly. Kinda cool.

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## danb

Nugget did several of them too.. recenly, so has Hans Brentrup!

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## uncle ken

I had the strings off my F4 so I polished the abolone on the headstock. I can't seem to capture the depth of the color though with my camera. They did some nice work back in those days.

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## danb

Here's a truss rod F4 with an amazing back..

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## danb

Very nice..

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## danb

This image and the previous two are of #70946, a 1922 F4

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## neal

You guys see this one yet? It's a 1924 A-4 snakehead on ebay right now. It's really quite nice, I thought the bridge might have been replaced because of the small wheels, but feel free to enlighten me on that...here's the pic.

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## Charlie Derrington

Bridge looks period-correct to me.

Charlie

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## neal

Thanks Charlie.

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## PaulD

> It's a 1924 A-4 snakehead on ebay right now.


WOW!!! That's one amazing looking vintage mando! 2nd owner no less! I wish I had several thousand $$$ sitting around for a mando right now... I would love to own that instrument.

Paul Doubek

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## danb

I agree with Charlie, looks all original. I saw that one last night and made the appropriate Whoaaaaa noise. Very clean. One hint on stuff like that is a complete lack of scuffs on the case too!

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## Darryl Wolfe

I suspect that mandolin has a Virzi in it too..just not mentioned in the listing

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## levin4now

Dan,

There are many observant people commenting on these instruments, people who who know something about these instruments. I love irony, and found that one of your pics on this thread indicated an unusual location for the "flowerpot".

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## danb

heheh, yes.. that is also a flowerpot 

Darryl- I'll bet you $20 there's no virzi, it'd have the rounded end '25 tuners if so

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## ffpizza5

A few Black Face Gibson I had laying around.

Conrad

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## stevem

Wow. That is one awesome collection.

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## Darryl Wolfe

> Darryl- I'll bet you $20 there's no virzi, it'd have the rounded end '25 tuners if so


come on Dan...see 78660..arrow ends, Virzi, only a few numbers later

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## danb

doh

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## mandophil(e)

Dan:

You still win the $20. No Virzi--I checked with the seller. Were arrow ended tuners just used for a very short period on the A4's? 

Phil Laub

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## danb

Most of the A4/Virzi ones I know of have the '25 style rounded tuners. There are some anomalies, but Snakehead a4 rarely = virzi.. it was an option, not standard.

Arrow-end tuners roughly correspond to late '22 through end of '24, almost exactly the Loar period. Some snakes have the earlier style (like mine!) and a few have the later ones with the rounded ends..

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## Ken Waltham

Snakes with earlier style tuners, ie notched end, have had them replaced. Arrow end tuners definately appear on A4's that have Virzi's.

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## danb

I disagree Ken, serials roughly between 70000 and 72000 will have notched ones, arrow-ends after that.. There is no evidence that my snakehead (71261) had the tuners replaced..

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## danb

Here's 71462:


71598:


71249 (same batch as my 71261) also had identical tuners and the peghead "lips" were smaller as in my personal one.. and the F4 pictured earlier in this thread also has the notched tuners

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## danb

As for the virzi with arrow ends, you guys are all right.. there are some of them. There is a cluster of them, however, with the "bump end" style like so 

80618:


81564:

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## Darryl Wolfe

The notched end tuners vrs the arrow end tuners follows the same timeline as F5's and any other applicable instrument. Arrow end tuners appeared enmass early to mid 23. I've seen Feb 23 mandos both ways. Dan is right, the majority of Virzi A4's appears to be the "25" ones with the later tuners. But there were '24's with arrow ends too. I owe Dan $10 since it doesn't have a Virze (but there were Virzi A4's with arrow ends)

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## Charlie Derrington

They used what they had when they had it.

I've seen snakehead 4s with all three tuner configurations and although they do seem to follow a rough time-line, it appears that they just used what was handy at the time.

Charlie

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## danb

These 2 shots shows nicely two variations between roughly 71xxx and 72xxx.. Shape of peghead top, and tuners used

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## danb

Front..

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## danb

Pretty similar otherwise!

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## Ken Waltham

I'm going to respectfully disagree. Snakehead A4's, especially, should not have notched end tuners, unless they're changed.
Fluer dis lis, or later Waverly's for sure.
Having said that, I don't really think it's a big deal, but, there are a lot of spare parts floating around auction sites. They come from somewhere.

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## Darryl Wolfe

OK, there is no real argument here. That is because they made no snakehead A-4's until well into 1923..when they more or less ran out of the notch ended ones. My 73001 has a paddle head with arrow ends, 72795 is the earliest snake A-4. It should be noted that A-4 73656 is a snakehead and does have original notch end tuners. I see no more after that. It is probably the only one, and as Charlie said, "they used what they had". One set of tuners within only a month or so..big deal

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## Darryl Wolfe

I can assure you, these have not been changed

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## danb

It could be Ken, I suppose. The thing that makes me think they are original is the fact that they correspond to the serialization though, after around 73000 I've only seen a few.. my take on it was that whatever was in stock had to get used up eventually.. that sort of thinking helps explain some of the oddball Loars and later with interestingly different hardware, or finish.. or features. I personally think that there is a "trend" to features, where "most" have a certain set before serial XX, and most have a different after.. but if you find another box of notched end ones late in the game they'll get used, etc.

Personally, I think the arrow-ends were a new thing to the Loar specs, and they started rolling them out as the old stock of parts dried up. Same applies for some of the curious hold-over paddle-heads into the snake era!

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## keithd

Dan and Darryl,

A bit off topic, but were the snakehead, oval hole, mandolins braced the same as teh teens ovals, with a short transverse brace just south of the hole, or, was there some Loar influenced tweaking of the bracing?

Keith

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## danb

Same brace as far as I know

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## danb

A little 3-pointer scroll..

What do you guys think of the red marks up around the scroll? Any theories as to how those could get there? The case is red, and there's a wear pattern there, but I've not seen color transfer like that..

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## danb

Also got a better one of the back today

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## danb

Some nifty stamping on the Handel tuner plates:

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## danb

Probably just about enough pictures of this mando! One of Darryl's pickguards will go on soon, as well as hopefully a replacement single-piece bridge. I also need to decide if I should get a calton for it, or something else maybe. The original case could use a break!

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## danb

This is the scroll on 1922 F4 #70946

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## danb

And this is a detail of the peghead..

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## danb

There aren't many out there that sound as nice as this one either

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## mandoman15

oh about the red around the scrol area, it's probbably due to pigments in teh finish that sort of settled there, th finish was probbably mixed with several colours to get that pumpkin color, and red it was probably one of them. On a concave surface, especially if the mando was hung to dry, het heavier red pigment may have settled there, also a bit off topic... in my enthusiam in answering this question i didn'tmanage to spell "the" correctly once...except for just now.

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## mandoman15

also note the really nice closed inlay of the gibson. thats a right swell axe ya got thar

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## danb

Arr, I wish it were mine. Belongs to a friend.. Here're some nice shots of 1917 f4 #37254

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## danb

This one is pretty big (apologies to modem folks) but sure shows the coolness of it all

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## danb

I was feeling arty-farty..

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## danb

Finally, the tailpiece and a little bearclaw figure

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## phriend2spin

I have always wanted to know somehting about vintage mandos. So, how is the action (was it good back then) and are there not some serious problems like warping and cracking?

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## danb

Some problems sure.. they were pretty much just well-built. The F4 above had a neck heel crack repair.. that's about it. The action is roughly where it was then. They used a dovetail joint for the neck to body, and Honduran Mahogany for the necks (mostly) or adjustible truss rods later & adjustible bridges.. that particular 1917 above didn't need aything done at all to it in 88 years by the looks of it..

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## PaulD

Gorgeous instruments! I also wanted to comment on the quality of the pics... great close-up shots. 

pd

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## mandoman15

Dan, those pics are huge! in a very good way, for 88 years that tailpiece is rather mint, the stamp is soooo perfect. 

also another thing not on the topic of your amazing photos, some of the scroll carvings on the old gibson f's are different than others in their own batch! how were they carved, by duplicators, or by hand? also we know that Gibson was just pumping out their mandos in this time period, i was wondering what kind of persons did they have working on them? Certaintly not fifty master builders...anyways, along the lines of the scroll ridges, i have seen many different ones how many were there....some of these questions may be impossible to answer but i find these old instruments fascinating and would love to learn more.

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## danb

> The case is red, and there's a wear pattern there, but I've not seen color transfer like that..


OK, this is interesting. I was attempting to steam-clean the case (some nasty gunk in there) and my yuck-soaking cloth picked up the exact reddish-ping stain that's on the scroll. I think that red came from the case..

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## danb

I can't believe I didn't post these on the archive before.. just was cleaning up some folders and found these images from Rick Van Krugel that I hadn't posted to the site before.. this is mandolin #2526, possibly the 26th one made..





Can you see now why these are called "pan backs" ? 

How do you like your eggs...

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## danb

This is an unusual view too..

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## mandoman15

was the top braced at one point or is that the reason for teh large crack running down the center of the top...

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## danb

First ones didn't have the top brace..

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## JEStanek

Those split open pan-back ones almost made me ill. Kinda like seeing brain surgery. Dan, any chance of posting a guide of how you shoot your photos (camera, ideas on angles...etc.) My photos all look like junk compared to yours.

Jamie

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## danb

Those pan-back ones come from a friend.

My method is pretty low-tech.. I can compose well (ie make sure there isn't a pile of dog vomit in the background), but mostly I just go outside on a slightly hazy day and snap them with the digicam (Canon G5). A few are posed with backdrops etc.. Frank Ford has a very nice explanation of his setup somewhere lurking in the pages of Frets.com. Some day soon I'll upgrade to an SLR type digicam.

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## JEStanek

Thanks. I get tons of glare off of polished surfaces. I'll check out frets.com
Jamie

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## danb

That's one reason for slightly cloudy days. Not hard to come by in England

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## Spencer

With my old SLR, I used to use the bounce flash off a white ceiling. That's before built in flashes. If you use a kind of velvety blanket for a background, you can get lots of interesting effects with shadows and texture. The bounce flash gives good illumination without glare, and you can see a lot of features in the wood. Eats batteries in a hurry, though.

Nice pictures Dan!

Spencer

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## danb

Yeah, Jamie Wiens has been attempting to teach me bounce flash. My latest groupings shot with 3 fs was that trick. Needs work, and a better camera

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## danb

OK, this one takes the Biscuit. It's one of 3 known vintage Gibson Lefties..

#32618, now appearing at a mandolin archive near you..

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## Ken Waltham

Very cool.
There is alledgedly a lefty F7 around these parts. Someday I hope to find it.
Ken

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## c3hammer

Oh, my! I might actually be able to get MAS as a lefty afterall 

Cheers,
Pete

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## danb

I've heard from Frank Ford that there is a lefty three-pointer in circulation as well. I think it's time to open a new page on the archives.. "rumored instruments" to track down. I have a couple of doozies myself that I've hit a wall trying to locate

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## Darryl Wolfe

As always..The F5Journal has been there. Left handed 3-pt..pic taken at Tut Taylors in 1966

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## Darryl Wolfe

ps...the slide is not backwards...look at the clock. Of course Dad was interested in the Dobro Mandolin

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## f5loar

Makes sense they would make them afterall Orville was left handed!

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## PCypert

For photos, simply use bounce flash as noted above if possible (you'll need a DSLR for this but should have one anyways  ). Also, the cloudy day thing works. Cloudy days tend to have neutral, uneventful light for most pics, but are nice in the fact that you get even light with loads of saturation to your colors. Rainy days are the best for colors. For cheap, consumer cameras your options are limited. One major thing people do wrong is shoot with auto white balance if you camera will let you set it. If it will pick the white balance manually and learn the effects for your camera. Read your manual for this as each camera is so different I couldn't even explain. Also try and shoot raw if you camera offers it. Takes more time but great shots result. Lastly if you have a direct flash don't use it unless you absolutely have to. Turn it off, tape it over, etc. You can put some kind of translucent tuper ware dish or some other slightly opaque thing over the flash to difuse the light. You could even hold a small miror to direct the light up to the ceiling and then back down again. Trust me, most of the light will make it back. Speed of light is quick. Some of the best lighting you can get is inside around 12-2 near a window. Perfectly difused light, not too bright, good contrast and saturation. I'd love to get to photograph all these mandos. Get to play mandolins and take pictures...it's my dream day. Best of luck,
Paul

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## doc holiday

Hmm 32618. Just when I thought it was safe to gaze.....Thankfully there can't be too many lefty F4's out there.  It would be the perfect affordable vintage mando..  I'm drooling like a banjo player on a level stage, out both sides of my mouth!  Doc

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## Jim Hilburn

Darryl, I wonder what that F-hole A was in '66. A Givens?

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## Darryl Wolfe

I'm not really sure on that one

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## Jim Hilburn

After looking closer, I'd bet it's whatever Gibson was making at the time. It's a 12th fret neck and the trussrod cover looks like something they would have used. The only hint that it's an F hole is the little dot of reflection on the right.

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## danb

"Tulip" has a unique inlay:



And a very early patent stamp:



Cool finish cracking around the older style Gibson logo:

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## danb

And she looks a little like a water balloon..

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## PaulD

Very cool, Dan. Do you have a full-frontal shot?

pd

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## mandolooter

Dan, when you say water balloon what do ya mean...i suspect , if it's like mine, when compared to my 1914 A1, it has the same rim measurement but the front and back arches are HUGE and it holds way more air/sound. Gives it a different sound. Your tulip is a beauty, and mine as ya mention on the Archives, still needs a bath! It's wearing new fret now and the playability is so much better. Tha originals where down to the fret board. 
Jeff

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## Tom C

Left handed F-4 - You'd figure they would have angled the Gibs*n logo in the right direction so it would not be upside down while holding mando on angle of playing.
but I guess it's hard building backwards.

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## danb

Yeah, by "Water balloon" I mean it's super-arched, looks like it's hanging off the neck even. Quite funny. It took a little jiggering.. the tone is splendid! The G string needs tweaking (change gauge I think), but the DAE are very LOUD and have a very nice "ploonk" to them. It's remarkable how different from 3263 it is...

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## danb

3376 full frontal/oblique

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## mandolooter

wow Dan...that is sweet!!!! Yea that arching on the top is the sam as mine..maybe I will give it a bath soon...it just has such a "well used mojo" to it.

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## mandolooter

Dan...a few more things I noticed...mine has a 2 piece neck but instead of 2 pieces side by side they are one on top of the other. I've never seen that before. Its listed in the archives as black but it's brown. The top is dark except for inside the soundhole ring which is a lighter color. Fingerboard is the dyed maple also.

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## Bill Halsey

Here's something I did just for fun...Gibson Factory Order Numbers are stamped on the headblock and are not always noticed. Here are a couple, one in an F-4 and one in an A, both from c. 1915.

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## Bill Halsey

Oops, here's the F-4:

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## Bill Halsey

BTW, I did a series of these, and in each one the glue beads around the top linings and blocks indicated that the tops were glued on after the backs. Anyone know if the F-5s were done in the same order?

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## danb

Here's my 3263's Handel tuner button, with new macro lens..

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## MML

Holly "S" you could see a hemmoroid on a fleas butt with that lens

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## danb

That's as big as it gets

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## craigtoo

i feel so small...

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## mandolooter

I just found this place during a non-related web search...lots of goodies to interest us mandogeeks and music instrument lovers as well!
museum 
Check out the whole place if ya have time it's cool.
As for the guitar i don't CARE how it sounds, it's awesome!!!

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## danb

Wow.. I've never seen one of those before. Here's the dated Orville Label as an appetizer.. that's just too cool for words!

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## danb

2nd view

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## mandolooter

Dan..I had you in mind when i posted that BTW! Glad ya like it....it's too cool for words huh!
Hey and thanks for the heads up on that ebay mando...didn't have the moola but it was a great idea and i'll keep my eye and browser posted...kill 2 birds with one stone...TP & MAS
Jeff

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## mandolooter

Dan if you wanna take the time heres a link of Music related museums...

http://www.usd.edu/smm/links.html#coll

There's a few weeks of looking around easy...lol

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## Paul Hostetter

While we're stretching the bejeezus out of this page with oversized images, how's this for a signed Orville item?



These were taken by Michael Darnton of Chicago.

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## bluesmandolinman

this 3-pointer is a killer ! Thanks for the photos !

Look at the extra scroll at the fretboard extension  

Very nice bridge and very nice tailpiece ...and...and...and.....

this is so cooool !

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## danb

Fantastic Paul! I'd love to know more about that instrument. 1906 is a very late date for an Orville!

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## danb

Ah.. looks like the same instrument as this one George Gruhn wrote about**:

"Orville Gibson's Last Mandolin"

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## mandolooter

His "final glory" He did well! I'd love to hear that one.

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## Michael Gowell

I really like the way the banjo-style tuners leave the peghead shape uncluttered. #Since there are now geared banjo tuners available, have any builders used this idea? #Admittedly the tuners would be a bit crowded, but the use of a winder when changing strings would relieve the primary physical disadvantage of this design. The minor inconvenience of using crowded tuners while perfecting tuning in everyday use would, to some, be more than offset by the clean aesthetics.

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## Paul Hostetter

Yeah, the photo I posted was taken at Bein and Fushi just before it was sold to George. Strange back story, too. 

Banjo tuners like on this one are really not good: they're friction 1:1 pegs that work poorly even with gut or nylon strings, not to mention metal ones. Geared banjo tuners weigh a ton. I actually installed some on an old Mexican mandolin. The headstock weighed more than the mandolin, but it was easy to tune. Geared banjo pegs are 4:1. which is not the ideal ratio for high tensions strings like one routinely sees on mandolins and guitars. I think there are very good reasons for the types of gears we usually find on mandolins.

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## Philip Halcomb

You don't see those tuners too often anymore...

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## mandolooter

I like everything about that mandolin but the bridge is really intriguing and it's lightweight look has superseded the one one Fret's.com as my choice for a 1 piece on my Clark F5...I made a similar one for my OM but it wasn't near as intricate. I like the challenge! That's a 7 scroller mandolin...lol!

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## mandolooter

oh yea before i forget i have a banjo with those same tuners on it...they suck bad! No matter how tight ya go they still lose there tuning and mando's have even more tension.

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## mandomick

Outstanding!!! Wonder if it ever gets played?

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## danb

My wife convinced me to read a photo book..

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## danb

The gear/plate.. both exposures were really really silly,

f/45 30 seconds exposure @ISO 100

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## danb

Detail of the gear, a little extra sharp via photoshop

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## danb

Getting the hang of this finally I think... Cool to see that detail on the plate eh?

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## MML

As always... great pics Dan!!

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## Bill Halsey

Wowie! Dan, tell us about your camera & lens...(sorry if I missed it)...

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## Dfyngravity

Amazing detail! Dan what camera are you using and what's the megapixels? Lets hear some details about the camera.

That gear looks like something you wouldn't want your fingers getting caught in, and here I though mandolin playing was fairly harmless!! Other than stabbing yourself with the end of the A or E strings that come out of the tuners.

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## danb

Canon EOS 20d (8.5mp) and those are a sigma 50mm macro lens .The shots were fairly absurd, f/45 30 second exposures to get decent depth of field. I'm a brand new baby in the photography world, I'm finding. My new camera isn't drool proof, so I've started reading the manual

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## johnwilson

Well I'll be damned! #I didn't think you could "expose" pixels with long shutter speeds. #Guess I better get oout the manual as well.

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## man doh

Danb, Those photos are awesome. Looks like your really getting into the photography. It can be really rewarding.

Quick tip. Park youself next to a window in the early morning just after the sun comes up. you will get alot of strong natural cross light to take detail pics without a flash and quicker exposure times. to get true colors a camera is more gear toward natural light than bulb light.

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## danb

Unfortunately I'm in England in winter, so you blink & you miss the daylight here 

Agreed. I'll probably get a ring flash for the macro to do these kinds of close-ups indoors when needed, but the camera's achilles heel is incandescent light

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## mandolooter

3 years later im just getting used to the seemingly 2 second delay between when i thought i took the pic and when it actually happened!

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## danb

Hah! That's actually the biggest advantage to my untrained hands of this SLR so far. from power on to picture taken is well under a second.. and the focus-lock happens quickly

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

Dan... I've got a 10D and I know what you mean about shooting in incandescent light. Are you shooting jpg's? If so, that's not helping your color temperature issues. If you shoot in RAW format, use a good RAW converter (later versions of Photoshop, Phase One, or even the converter that came with your camera), you'll have a lot more control of the color balance. RAW is an unprocessed (for the most part), uncompressed file as opposed to a jpg that is highly processed and compressed. You can process the RAW image and convert it to a tiff (less compression) for printing/storage or to a jpg for e-mail/net use. Just offers a lot more control. I make it a habit of shooting an 18% grey card (available at phot stores) in the first frame for a reference to balance on. If you forget to do that, a solid white area will do almost as well.

Dude

----------


## Joe Parker

Lynn-do what??  

JPP

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

FWIW...yep, Lynn be one 'o the best photographers I've seen....he goes way back, and has always had 'da good stuff"

----------


## danb

Lynn- so far yes, jpegs. Need a better lens and less reliance on photoshop!

I have a great macro lens, and understand how to make a pinhole aperture and wait 45 seconds.. but I need a good wide-angle lens now. I think the main thing hurting me is the 20d kit lens

----------


## danb

Here's my calibration bar btw.. I also ordered a nice metric photgraphers rule form a crime scene company!

----------


## Lynn Dudenbostel

What lens came with your 20D Dan? The standard Canon zoom that comes with the 20D outfit is a really decent lens. Not a Canon L series, but darn good. If you are looking for a good all around Canon lens, the 28-135 IS is really nice for around $400. The 17-40 L series is fantastic, but quite a bit more expensive. Also, if you are going to get really serious about digital and want to get the most from your equipment, a top of the line CRT monitor (yes, they still beat LCD screens) and a colorimeter to calibrate your monitor are essential. You'd be suprised how poorly set-up most monitors are. If you want to skip the high end monitor, at least spend $100 on a Pantone Colorvision Spyder to set-up your monitor. You'll get a lot more consistent results this way. Your final images are only as good as your weakest link, and in most cases, it's the monitor set-up!

Dude

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## jasona

I'm going to need to invest in a professional digital SLR (heavy on the macro use) in the near future and this camera talk is really helping me. Do carry on!

----------


## Lynn Dudenbostel

Jasona... as you might can tell, I'm big on Canon. My brother is a professional photographer and has had Nikon and Canon digital. Both are fine cameras and both will give you great results, but Canon has far better customer service. Depending on your needs, a digital Rebel or Nikon D70 may just be the ticket at a reasonable price. Digital SLR's are great. None of the shutter lag associated with the "point and shoot" models and a larger sensor means better images with lower noise levels (at higher ISO settings). It's an addiction as bad as instruments. I shot and developed my first black and white film with my dad's help while in the 4th grade. I've shot everything from 35mm all the way up to 8x10. Didn't do much besides family photography for years, but digital has the juices flowing again. It's a blast, and my hands don't smell like fixer anymore!
Dude

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## JEStanek

And your shirts aren't covered in coffee colored splots. Thanks for chiming in with good advice, Dude. I did a ton of B/W photography/printing in college and am poorly satisfied with my point & shoot digital. The choice over the next year will be mandola or Rebel? Do you know if the Nikon lenses from their film SLRs will work on their digital cameras?

Jamie

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## danb

Lynn- it's the 18-xx lens.. I think I need it cleaned actually. Noticed this morning that the sigma macro shows perfectly clear, some fine black specs in the Canon one. I suspect it was dusty, it was a demo at the store.. this is probably the source of the noise.

dpreview suggests I get rid of the kit lens and get an ultrasonic. Hmm, those are about $750 

Regarding color- yes.. my wife is a graphic designer from a former life. We have a pretty good (BENQ) LCD for colors, but a CRT beats the pants off it on any given sunday. I've got it working pretty well at the moment, my prints match my screen color and the real world fairly well, but I could certainly tweak it!

I'm planning to shoot as many Loars as I can in bakersfield with the colorbar on them. Jamie's also going to help, we should have a big pile of content after that event!

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

The 18-55 is a good lens. You "should" get good results with it. If it's not giving you sharp photos, and it's still under warranty, have the dealer send it and the body to Canon for calibration. Most of the Canon's have ultrasonic motors. Just makes the lens focus faster. The 28-135 is a USM (ultrasonic). Best thing to do is totally ignore most of what is said in dpreview.com. About the only forum that is decent is at www.robgalbraith.com Mostly pros there, or at least use to be.
The Spyder colrimeter is down to about $99 now. Works with LCD and CRT. I've got a 19" Lacie CRT with a Mitsubishi tube. I don't think they make CRT's anymore though.

Jamie... as I understand it, the Nikon lenses that worked with the autofocus film bodies should work with the D70. Just remember, the sensor on the D70 and D100 aren't the same size as a piece of 35mm film, so you have a 1.5x crop factor. So, your "normal" 50mm lens becomes a mild tele equivalent to a 75mm on your old film camera. There are full frame Canon SLR sensors, but you are looking at $3000 up. The crop factory is why you see such wide zooms on the digital SLR's.

Dude

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## Darryl Wolfe

See, I told 'ya Dude knew his stuff

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

Thanks Darryl.... but I'll tell you, watching these guys frame up my shop right now shows me how much I DON'T know! I guess they couldn't build a guitar or mandolin though. I send Dan a photo of what's up already. He's welcome to post it if he wants. I'll send it to you too.
Dude

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## mandolooter

You guys are flaring up my CAS, now stop it! I got a Olympus C-720 and it's a great camera but the Canon I tried at Christmas made it feel like a 110 cardboard disposable! My film setup is all Canon but i haven't used it since I got the digi 2 years ago! Why would I...?

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## Darryl Wolfe

Same here mandolooter. Canon A-1 and EF laying in the drawer, along with the 24mmFD and 50mm1.4FD and 100mmFD macro. Sony DSC S85 now at shot number 5500

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## danb

oops, posted in the "Hey Dude" thread!

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## danb

Here's a close-up of an inlaid guard.. 3376

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## danb

Virzi Label in A4..

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## danb

FON (just above the virzi label)

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## danb

peghead

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## danb

Tuners are "Bump-end" type from '25

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## danb

More of Snakehead A4 #81564

It's nearly immaculate.. you can see some finish flaked near the pickguard clamp. Thos flakes follow a couple of crazing lines. Under very bright angular light you can see the fractures in the lacquer topcoat (it is a '25, they started to get that finish from there out). 

The pickguard comes by way of Mike Compton.. it was a spare he had that came from a 1925 or later Gibson. Michael Lewis kindly fitted it for me (as well as doing a superb setup on the mandolin as a whole). It was also fitted with a stew-mac saddle (upside down!) which came off in favor of one of Tony Williamson's replicas.

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## danb

Virzi..

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## danb

Back

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## danb

Cool case latch.. G&S is short for "Gieb & Sons", the Chicago company that made the cases for Gibson, Vega, others

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## danb

Serial

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## danb

here's an mp3 sound clip of me practicing a bit on it, gives a reasonable idea of the tone. It's opened up a bit already since recording this snippet..

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## red7flag

Very pretty tone. Thank you for sharing.
Tony

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## danb

Recent ebay buy.. these are a dissassembled (shafts & gears off) set of replacement tuning pegs that will fit 81564. Note the stamping, not a common thing to see unless you have tuners off a mandolin..

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## danb

Worm gear side..

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## danb

All back together after the cleanup

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## danb

nice to find a set that's exactly right. The ones on there are probably fine too.. I find most often there are little hunks of junk between the gear & the plate on the worm side, or the shaft and the plate on the other. Taking apart, cleaning them off, apply a little lubricant.. and they are like new machines!

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## MML

Hey Dan, on those tuners do you think someone drilled out the other two mounting holes. I thought most Gibson waverlies had only three holes. Also the posts do not have the recessed area for the string windings. I'm just getting a little anal I guess.Nice buttons though

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## danb

Some had 5 holes, some 3.. different batches.. The shapes of the posts changed too, so these are original like that with no recessed area

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## JEStanek

Great sound clip. Neat pictures too. I espescially like the herringbone on the tuner knobs.

Jamie

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## danb

Always good to add a little torch for sunday night/monday morning viewing

----------


## danb

!!!

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## danb

tp cover

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## JEStanek

MMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
Pumpkin....

Jamie

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## Jim Garber

> tp cover


Dan:
Is that an original (from the factory) tp cover? Gorgeous engraving. What is the story on that one?

Jim

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## danb

Not too much by way of historical info on it.. we acquired it from a fellow who purchased it at an estate sale some time ago. The TP is marked "STERLING" and is likely silver (heavy). To me it looks like a very fancy custom monogram piece for the original owner, though who can say if it was done by Gibson or as an aftermarket upgrade? 

I've always thought that the 3pointers like this one are the peak of Gibson's aesthetic mountain.. the body lines, the peghead inlay, the color.. all of these add up to a style and look that stands as a unique testament to the artistry of Orville + the practiciality and playability vibe the facroty had going.

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## danb

One more interesting note on this torch- compare the flames at the top with the very first page of this thread.. you'll see that some of the inlay is covered in the black. There are a couple examples like this, including a Loar-signed L5 where whole pieces of inlay are "blacked out" with the finish. I can't say why or how, but it's interesting to note

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## danb

The label on F4 #9100

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## danb

a little closer..

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## danb

Single piece top, some bear claw figure. Sitka? Spruce, what do you think? Lots of silking on it too

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## danb

The back

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## danb

Detail of the inlay. For some reason, some of the pearl was "inked over" on this one.. 2 "leaves" on either side of the flame.. you can see in this image

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## danb

I think this narrow range (roughly 9000-13500) has the best scroll carving of all the gibsons, a nice sharp ridge

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## danb

Back side of the scroll

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## danb

Pickguard has "Pat Applied for" stamp, meaning it's really probably 1910 or 1911.. the stamp with the date on the PG is 1911!

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## Bob DeVellis

I wonder if it's pearl under the ink or some sort of filler. I can't imagine covering perfectly good pearl but if the routed area and the inlay differed (e.g., if one or both of the missing leaves broke), they might have filled the routed out area and coverd the whole thing with ink or dye. I guess if the pearl had some serious flaw, that might be another reason. Just speculation.

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## danb

A macro of the top (bruce, mailed you a supermacro)

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## danb

Boy I wonder. I've seen this on a couple gibsons, including a Loar L5.. inlay that is clearly there, but inked over. Laziness? Check out this better macro that shows pretty clearly that the pieces are there.. I wonder what's going on on the right side. was it partially scraped then abandoned?

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## danb

One more of the torch & I'll quit.. I love the dog-eared look of the case in this photo

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## danb

Here's that torch retouched on the left side to show one of the "missing" pieces

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## Michael Gowell

Wow, Dan, what a beauty...

You may want to start that "best scroll carving" serial number range a little earlier. #I have 8431, a 3-point F-2, and it exhibits the same characteristics as the F-4 above.

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## danb

Michael, I could be off be even more, I have very few pictures for stuff in that range. Could you post some images of your 3 pointer?

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## danb

One more, got a nice shot today outdoors

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## sgarrity

Now that is a stunning mandolin. Not a thing I'd change.

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## danb

The whole shootin' match:

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## jim simpson

Thanks Dan,
It makes a wonderful background on the desk top!
Jim

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## danb

I'm a big fan of orange-topped mandolins, same with pure redbursts. I wish more builders would use them!

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## sgarrity

So how does the sound compare to a normal F4?

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## danb

It's much more like a teens F4 than an earlier 3pt. I'll catch some sound clips this week to post, It's really quite nice. Very sweet if that makes sense, quite similar to a 1917 F4 I had briefly. Nice even response and tone up the neck.

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## danb

As we're in the mood..

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## danb



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## danb



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## danb

One more..

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## danb

(listens for the sounds of jaws hitting the floor)

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## Darryl Wolfe

The Phoenix lifts off and takes to the air. #Or is it a Mockingbird? No, it's a yellow breasted string thrasher

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## sgarrity

I didn't thing they made any 3 point mandolas? Am I dreaming this?

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## danb

That's no mandola, that's a mandocello! 
&lt;/Obi Wan voice&gt;

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## johnwilson

With enough room for at least two more points...

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## danb

Here's what 9100 sounds like (mp3)

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## danb

June Apple on 9100

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## danb

Check this out- the K4 has the same scroll as a style O..

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## sgarrity

I guess I wasn't paying attention to the scale length. That deserves and even bigger WOW! So whats the story? I know there's gotta be a good one!

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## Darryl Wolfe

Now that is what I expect of us Dan...perfect point and perfect read..no conjecture

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## JD Cowles

Good God...more than my jaw hit the floor Dan. That m'chello is gorgeous.

 
(this coffee mug is actually catching the drool)

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## Hans

Here's good 'ole #13100...early body with the non-S type scroll ridge mated to a '12 F-4 neck with double flowerpot. Neck is cedar and has a flat set with low bridge.

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## Hans

Closeup of top.

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## Hans

Back.

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## Hans

Back closeup.

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## Hans

Peghead.

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## red7flag

I am stunned, that is lovely.
Tony

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## Darryl Wolfe

Hans, I'm slightly confused. Is that a mandolin or mandola

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## Hans

Darryl, it's a mandolin. It looks like Gibson had an old body laying around and stuck a new neck on it. It's very odd in that the body, pickguard (note the old style clamps), bridge, fingerboard, neck set all came out around 1902, while the neck and tailpiece are 1912. It is supposedly the last 3 point documented.

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## danb

Hans- I don't think that yours is a re-work or a frankenstein. There are a couple others right around your serial number that I've personally seen that are similar. Mine also has a teens style neck on it, and the neck set isn't particularly outrageous. What angle is yours? Yours looks exactly right to me for the bridge & fingerboard for a 1910-1912 instrument!

There is another numbered 13092 that you should compare.. Note that it's the same stamp number as yours!

This one has 2 clamps rather than 2 chin rest-style clamps like yours does, but is otherwise a dead ringer.

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## danb

This is F4 13406.. note the fingerboard, bridge, etc

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## Ken Waltham

That mandolin looks like one I used to own. It had a really nice back, for sure. And a really nice OHSC.
Ken

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## Hans

Dan, looks like I was wrong about the fingerboards and although I don't think the instrument is a "Frankenstein", I do find it an odd instrument as Gibson was making them with the S-shape scroll ridge at that time. That leads me to believe that this one and 13092 were just old bodies laying around. Note that they both have zero neck set with a very low bridge, while others with the S-shape ridge had some neck set and a higher bridge similar to the F-4 (2 pt) of the time. All this just reinforces my opinion that sometimes the factory workers just grabbed anything that was laying around to produce some of these instruments.
Ken, I do believe that you did own this instrument. Looks like your table on the archive!

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## danb

Flames..

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## danb

scroll

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## danb

81564 on the bench

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## Darryl Wolfe

Look too new, needs some distressing

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## mandowood

Dan- this is slightly off topic, and may have been asked before, but what camera do you use? Your pictures are always first rate- I'm very impressed. Thanks...

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## danb

Early photos in this thread were a Canon G5, recent are a Canon EOS 20d. Most of the pictures I take are hideous, I only post about 1/50 attempts.. I'm learning as I go along though I tip my hat to "real photographers"!

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## danb

I also do a fair amount of photoshop work to make them look good on screen- my wife taught me that stuff (she's a graphic designer by trade)

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## danb

81564 with a nekkid peghead. I was trying a set of vintage replacement tuners that didn't end up being better.. thought it was an interesting view though!

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## danb

Here's the truss pocket

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## Darryl Wolfe

Can I have that little truss nut. I lost mine and nothing fits.

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## carleshicks

darryl if you take some measurment my buddy has a machine shop I can probably make you one.

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## Scott Tichenor

Don't believe I've ever posted in this thread. Allow me to introduce my spiffy new H1. Some of you may remember this was for sale on eBay a couple of weeks ago but the seller pulled the auction early.

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## Scott Tichenor

It's #67802

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## Scott Tichenor



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## Scott Tichenor



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## Scott Tichenor



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## Scott Tichenor



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## Scott Tichenor

Last one. These photos have not been retouched at all, just resized. The instrument is marvelous. Terrific vintage sound. Striking.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Very cool Scott. I got one a few months ago too, but it's certainly not that nice. Happy Birthday

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## MML

Shes a beaut, one day I'd like to explore the sonic posibilities of the mandola

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## danb

This one has 2 pretty wow things about it..

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## danb



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## danb

Once more in case you missed it..

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## danb

That case wasn't cataloged as far as I know. I *think* I have one other record..

----------


## MML

Dan tell us more about that F4, and its fingerboard. Interesting extension and "dots", and the case.....way cooool

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## Darryl Wolfe

The case is cataloged in the service manual and on the price list. In 1923 the case is listed as "discontinued, in stock quantities only"

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## danb

Actually Darryl, that's a different case.. they are like Loar cases and have purple felt. Also very rare, but this particular diagonal one with red silk is even rarer. I think I've seen one on ebay recently, I have a large backlog of stuff for the archive to pick through.. but the older loar-shaped case for F4s were not this fancy. 

I think this one is a custom job, like the twin fern case.

I'm not 100% sure on the FB extension.. the owner points out quite rightly that the wood choices and case are quite premium, it seems plausible that the FB could be original, though I wonder- some examples got an F12 or F5 board that covers the soundhole later on. I'm curious if the fret spacing is the same on this as a "normal" F4 would be.. if the fret gaps are slightly wider it could be a retrofit from F5/f12 days, but if they are the same spacing (12 does join at right place) it might be original. 

It certainly looks undisturbed there.

Check the gorgeous woods- nice silking on the top, very nice maple back

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## danb

Here's the one I think is referenced in the service manual:

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## danb

10132 has a cool case too, this one went back to gibson during the Loar period and came home with what is probably the only 3pt Loar case

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## Darryl Wolfe

Well Dan, yes I agree it is different, but I think it's still the 440 case for F-4 referred to in the catalog, just a different supplier or year. Just like the a-model cases, some are nice shiny silk lined and some are pretty chintzy, all to do with when it was made. Just my opinion

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## danb

yeah on balance I think you're right, there are 2 part numbers for flannel/silk..

see left-hand page

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

well, we talked alot off-line just now, and the case business is hard to tell what they meant with any flannel, velvet, silk differentiation in part numbers. At most any time they had two or three differnt cases with differnt description, but usually other than one, the others were marked as" discontinued, quantities instock ony"

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## danb

More of the torch mando, I'm practicing with my new flash..

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## danb

This is pretty accurate in terms of color

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## danb

One more detail

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## MML

Who can't love them ole 3 points. Nice detail shot Dan.

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## danb

New from the Lens of our good friend Lowell "Banana" Levinger:

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## danb



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## danb



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## Scott Tichenor

This 24 virzi F4 is sitting in my house at the moment. Unfortunately I don't own it, but I may. Belongs to very good friends. More of it at the Mandolin Archive.

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## grandmainger

Scott, it looks lovely. What's the story with the two dark tuner buttons?

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## Scott Tichenor

No idea. Suspect they were a poorly chosen replacement at some point in its life.

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## danb

Scott & I discussed this- I'm not so sure they are replacements. There are quire a few of them in the same serial range with these "coffee-color" tuners, though I'm not aware of a set that mixed & matched them, it's not out of the question by any stretch.

It's the type of oddity that you just need to account for- different from most, but using parts that were clearly available on instruments with serial numbers so close they would have been in progress at the same time..

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## danb

The astute watchers of these various nitpick threads will notice something else is unusual/different from the norm. Anyone want to hazard a guess?

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## grandmainger

> The astute watchers of these various nitpick threads will notice something else is unusual/different from the norm. Anyone want to hazard a guess?


Isn't the "The Gibson" a little higher than usual?

Regarding the tuner buttons, do we know if they actually were of different colours or if a batch has aged into this coffee brown?

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## danb

Could be different aging. Maybe these looked nearly the same when they went on? 

Nothing more on the peghead.. check the body..

----------


## fatt-dad

Just out of curiosity, I would think that the virzi would be visible through the soundhole. Just where is it, posititioned directly under the bridge? I thought these things were 3 or so inches in diameter.

f-d

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## grandmainger

If you have a look at this mando: mandolinarchive.com/show_image.pl?3359 you'll see that it's just that little bit too far south to be seen head on. You need to look from the neck to see it.

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## danb

Fatt-Dad: they are visible at an angle, but not straight on:

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## danb

If memory serves the top of the virzi is in just about the same spot as the lateral brace, about 1-1.5" below the soundhole

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## fatt-dad

Cool photos danb! All this discussion on antiquity makes me hope for the lottery. I'd buy a few of these relics!

f-d

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## danb

Ok, my quiz.. all I was looking for is the PG clamp. It's a screw-type one, too early for this age.. should be a clamp guard. Scott tells me there are scars on the side showing there was once a clamp one fitted!

----------


## bluesmandolinman

hey Dan...your quiz... the screw type one is too early for the ´24 F-4 only, right?...

but not in general because for the F-5 they already started in ´23 right ? 

You fooled us   

René

----------


## danb

More or less right Rene  The screw-in clamps don't appear on Gibsons with a serial below the 80000 range in general. You pretty much need to get an instrument finished in lacquer for the screw-style pgs if it's just the plain tortiseshell celluloid type. The style 5 instruments had their own guards from the start, so the hardware was developed in tandem! Some of the post-Loar style 5 instruments get a simple metal (instead of W/B/W binding-like material) clamp. 

The metal one seems most common on &gt;= 1925 ajrs. I reckon they had a lot of clamp style ones to use up

----------


## danb

Here's a cremona brown F4 I recently visited, note- March 31 '24 Loar on the left!

----------


## danb

Detail showing the first pass at the adjustible bridge. Note it's not as "T" shaped as Loar ones and has an adjusting and a locking nut

----------


## danb

Playing with new tripod. F40, 10 sec exposure at ISO 200 50mm away

----------


## danb

Kinda cool as it shows the the less than perfect flatness of the lacquer

----------


## mandopete

Stunning photo's Dan, you're getting really, really good at this!

----------


## RI-Grass

Peghead closeup ... Can you guess the model?

----------


## RI-Grass

Top of the back and heel ...
Quite a bit of crazing.

----------


## RI-Grass

Closeup of the base side of the oval hole. Alas, this top has been refinished...

----------


## RI-Grass

Front of the mando. Notice shadow where the painted on pick guard has been removed and a non-vintage pick guard added...

----------


## RI-Grass

Side shot ... where's the recurve? Wait ... where's the curve?!...

----------


## RI-Grass

1932 Gibson C1. About as non-Loar as you can get. At $25, it was half the price of an A1 when it was built. It sounds pretty cool, though ... alot of ring and sustain.
Thought you might like to see one.
Sal

----------


## danb

Took this shot today, already posted in the pegheads section

----------


## Rick Albertson

My 1921 F-4.

----------


## F5G WIZ

Ralberts, Kewl picture!!

----------


## jasona

Cherry!

----------


## Rick Albertson

This will be the first in a series of posters of vintage mandolins. Any suggestions on other models and who might be willling to let me photograph them?

Rick

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Check out the cool case with this very early F-2

F2

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here we go

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

another

----------


## Lowell Levinger

Is that a viola case?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

It appears to be identical to a Loar case with just a different shape to the interior. Maybe it was ordered for the mando later or maybe it is for some other instrument like a viola

----------


## danb

Messing around photographing this F2. Serial illegible, but FON puts it in a group of late 1922 instruments.. interesting, as the Nickel Truss rod cover like that puts it in late '21.

So either 68xxx or 70xxx

----------


## Ken Waltham

I think it's a viola case. See where the bows go...

----------


## danb

Another photo of the same F2

----------


## danb

The back is interesting. I thought all this flame would imply maple, but Jamie Wiens tells me he has seen birch with this much figure

----------


## danb

Another angle

----------


## danb

Another shot showing the aluminum saddle I just had fitted

----------


## Ken Waltham

Yeah, I think that's a birch back, Dan.
That is a lovely F2, nice find....

----------


## danb

Thanks Ken (who is the source, of course).

----------


## Ken Waltham

Seriously, it is beautiful. Such nice condition, and a lovely colour. I think the saddle really looks cool on there, too. Sets the whole thing off, visually.
Ken

----------


## rbmando

The aluminum saddle is cool and I love the sound on my 1921 F4. Was the aluminum saddle used in late 1922? I thought it was a one year phenom in 1921.

----------


## evanreilly

Aluminum saddles. An erratic enigma, for sure.

----------


## f5loar

The AL saddle was Dave Apollon's best choice on his F5s over the years. Kinda gives it the original "heavy metal" sound long before KISS came around.

----------


## danb

Haven't made my mind up yet on this one.. it sounds very nice, though I'll do some serious A/B work with the wooden saddle before I stick with one. It's sure fun to experiment. I'll do the A/B sound clips thing for sure!

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## danb

> The aluminum saddle is cool and I love the sound on my 1921 F4. Was the aluminum saddle used in late 1922? I thought it was a one year phenom in 1921.


Hi Bob,

Yes as far as I know it's only original to late '21. This aluminum saddle is a repro, and Loar style vs the original "I-Beam" aluminum saddle. Coincidentally, there are also a very few wooden adjustible saddles in that "I-Beam" style with a top locking nut too.. I reckon they started to sag so they were redesigned soon after!

This F2 is probably of that vintage, the nickel silver truss rod cover and FON place it in that area +- 1 year probably.

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## danb

Another unusual feature-ette on this one is that the inside of the scroll on the front is bound.. usually the body binding stops at the end of the "outside scroll" and that last inch or so is unbound on an F2. Straight on it's not possible to tell from an F4.

No point protectors though.

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## danb

final note-- the scroll is a little oblong. It's bulgy at around 11 o'clock compared to other F2/F4s I've seen. I looked at it right next to a '22 F4 I have in the apartment on loan from a friend and that one is nearly perfectly round! This one seems to have extra meat on it.

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## markishandsome

Could it have been re-bound at some time?

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## danb

Nah, not this one.. it's all obviously original. It's more odd to see the unusual shape to the scroll!

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## bluesmandolinman

here is a photo of David Lindley having some fun on a nice 3-pointer

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## Darryl Wolfe

This beautiful F-4 came to visit this weekend. He needed some bridge and set-up work. I thought "she" was nice enough to post a few pictures

48898

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## Darryl Wolfe

and the eye-popping back

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## Darryl Wolfe

full front (those are not marks on the mando, some strange glare in both pics)

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## Darryl Wolfe

Peghead. #This is another one of those "transvestite" mandolins. #The thin crazed lacquer finish, finish color, pickguard and bridge are 1925ish. #Serial number is 1918ish. #There are no signs of repair, no overspray on the label, case is 1925 vintage with red lining. #The wriggle end tuners have amber buttons and the bushings are the wider 1925 style. #Pickguard screws on and there are no mars from a previous clamp type mount. It also has a pearl nut which I believe is a Loar era feature not usually seen pre-Loar era (I could be wrong on that one just for the record)

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here's another try at resizing the front shot. The first one is zagged out on the pixels

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## cooper4205

beautiful, those double-pots never get old. what kind of camera are you using to shoot with?

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## Darryl Wolfe

It's an older Sony DSC S85. 4Meg. I'm looking for something new as I see many others with better color rendition now.

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## Bill Halsey

> ..."It also has a pearl nut which I believe is a Loar era feature not usually seen pre-Loar era (I could be wrong on that one just for the record)"


Every F-4 I've owned, 1913 thru 1920, has a pearl nut. Just for the record.

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## danb

my 1909 F4's (presumably) original nut is pearl.. I think it was bone on anything but an F4 and pearl on the F4s

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## Darryl Wolfe

At least I covered myself. That was a detail I was not sure of..thanks

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## Ken Waltham

Darryl; Pearl nuts for sure. The colour looks too contrasting for a 1918, they tend to be more of a uniform stain, with subtle sunburst. If it is lacquer, with a screw on p/g clamp, it is definately not original.
The tuners and the bushings look fine for 1918, IMO. Amber buttons are not uncommon, and wriggle end is of course correct.
The bridge is 1921 or newer, and I notice the one pin for the p/g looks straight. If this is true, that is Loar period or later. The earlier ones have two finishing nails that are bent at an angle, and go down into the fretboard at an angle.
I see it appears there are two holes, but I see only the one pin.
Ken

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## Darryl Wolfe

Exactly Ken
-Too contrasting burst for 1918
-Definately lacquer, but the thin early type that it not so shiney
-Tuners could easily be 1918, but bushings are wider flanged
-old holes for two pin guard, but one pin existing for Loar period mount
-side/screw mount bracket
-24/25 case with the lighter red lining
-frets are on the large side, but appear original
-but most importantly - zero actual evidence of refin, no rounded off binding, no finish on label, no covered dents/impacts in the wood

All in all, a bit strange. #As I have stated before, there is a trend that indicates Gibson was doing something that we have not quite zeroed in on. #We tend to think all these mandolins were sent back to the factory for refinishing ect ect. #I think there is another answer that covers at least a portion of them. #I don't know what it is though.

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## Michael Gowell

re. pearl nuts...

my 1909 (3-point) F-2 has a pearl nut, so they were used earlier than 1914 and not just on F-4s.

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## f5loar

The answer might be that some repairmen at Gibson did a better job at refinishing and fixing things to new parts then others. Shouldn't be a problem to cover up the hole from the inside with a rag so you don't get that overspray look. Wouldn't you do that? If done in the mid 20's there were still plenty of good madolin luthiers left from Loar days. Maybe the regular repair guy was on vacation that week this one came in.

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## HoGo

Hi guys,
this one is not in the archives. Spectacular back/sides.
FON:11367. I could not read the serial #, but could be 67467, or the first two figures could also be 74...
Dan, PM me if you want pics for archive.

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## HoGo



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## HoGo



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## HoGo



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## HoGo



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## HoGo

This one shows interesting detail how rough the linings were left. The sawing traces are clearly visible even in this bad pic.

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## danb

Nice adrian,

probably starts 67 or it would have a truss rod and narrower fingerboard. Sure, send images if you have them. I'm behind on my updates on the archive but still accumulating them for the next mythical batch of free time

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## Darryl Wolfe

Does anyone else think that one might be refinished? What do you know HoGo

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## danb

Looks like a direct flash to me, that tends to make them look a little extra shiny and to make the color contrast stronger

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## markishandsome

> The answer might be that some repairmen at Gibson did a better job at refinishing and fixing things to new parts then others.


Once you start making up things like this the simplicity of the "refinished at the factory" line sort of goes out the window. I don't see the point in clinging to this explaination for every one of these that pops up. Probably most of them were, but there are enough "transvestites" out there for there to be exceptions to the rule, don't you think?

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## Darryl Wolfe

Thanks for the support Mark. #There are way too many instruments with anomolies for there to be only one answer. #Another odd observation is that the "transvestites" seem to be grouped in time periods. #That would mean they only did refinish work every 5 years or so at their whim:D

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## Darryl Wolfe

For example. #Here is another Loar, a '24. #Compare it to 73485 "transvestite Loar" in the classifieds. #It has the same finish, it had the same block inlay fingerboard and it has a later neck which is evident by the tuner locations. # There are four other similar Loars. #So are we to believe that six people sent their Loar back to the factory for new finish, fingerboard and neck during the same period.

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## Darryl Wolfe

73485

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## Ken Waltham

So are we to believe that four people sent their Loar back to the factory for new finish, fingerboard and neck during the same period. 

In a word, yes.

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## Darryl Wolfe

We all have opinions, and I cannot prove mine yet. #When we find some 1934 sales receipts for a new F5 mandolin, serial number 73485, 76780 and such our thinking may change. #I find it interesting that while they were "so-called refinishing" this one, they opted to rebind it and remove the Virzi and label, redrill the peghead, replace the overlay or replace the neck, replace the fingerboard and generally make it look like a brand new early '30's F5.

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## Darryl Wolfe

and by the way, Mandola 76966 is the same way, someone sent it back for complete refinishing and all new parts. They even decided to remove the Loar label on this one when they refinished it

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## Ken Waltham

Same thing really with Alan Neiderland's F5. Neck, binding, finish...
I have owned two F5's refinished in the 50's. Alan's makes three. Did you see the Loar signed L5 on ebay, refinished in the 50's? That makes four just off the top of my head.
Are we going to expound that Gibson "held them back", and didn't finish them until the 50's?
That's just as ridiculous as thinking these ones left the factory that way.
It doesn't mean they are wonderful instruments, but, really, it's just that simple.
I am very concerned that people who read these pages, that are trying to learn something about these great American fretted instruments will get totally the wrong idea. Those wrong ideas.. or misinformation, could lead someone to make a very serious monetary mistake on the premise that " it's totally original", just left the factory later.

If you followed the Skinner auction, you can see the public's perception of refinnished, high end instruments. I stopped bidding at 60K, and it did look good to me, but, you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. There was #a thread a while back on resale value when buying a mandolin.
This gets a lot more serious.

I think these discussions are healthy, and needed, and I treasure Darryl's comments on all this stuff, but I will "die on the hilltop" in my opinion of this kind of thing. I am in no way trying to be nasty, but I want to protect you folks looking for info on these, the most fantastic of Mandolins.
I'm ducking now, and will close my comments on this topic.
Ken
Photo is a case in point.

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## Ken Waltham

Here's a great 1924 F4. Total refin.

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## Ken Waltham

Here's a beautiful 1921 F4. Total Refin.
None of these left the factory that way.
Ken

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## Darryl Wolfe

Ken, #We are talking two different subjects and I certainly appreciate your input. #There is no question that a 20's instrument with an obvious '50's finish did not leave the factory that way.

That is a much different case than a ~1923 instrument and my unproven theory that some could have left the factory in the early thirties, less than ten years later. #Let us not forget that it was identified recently that Gibson was on the brink of bankruptcy in 1923, and there was this thing called the Great Depression that started in 1929. #By virtue of the Eugene Claycomb "red" Fern Loar, we already know that Gibson had a 2 year supply of Loar signed mandolins sitting on the shelf. #It was not even ordered from the music store until late 1926. 

I do not think I am dispelling false information any more than you seem to be insisting that any opinion other than yours is is absurd. #Should I be able to eventually prove my hunches correct, then your information could be considered misleading. #Furthermore, this is only a theory and does not try to include all examples. #I have not tagged any of these instruments as "totally original" nor have I implied that they are worth as much as an instrument that looks correct for it's age. #These are definitely oddball cases.

With that said, is the Red Fern Loar that was either refinished or finished red for the first time in 1926 a b####rd or is it original. It brought a record price at the time

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## f5loar

Maybe the red fern was bough new March '24 and the original owner in 1926 ordered a red F4 and sent the '24 back in to be matched to a new '26 F4. When something is wrong it's wrong. Now speculating on why it's wrong 75 or more years later is like finding a judge to conclude what AnnaNicoleSmith's wishes were for where she wanted to be buried after she died! We may never the truth to all things prescious.

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## f5loar

I will reflect back to the famous "PeeWee" '22 Loar in which it was found in a trash can with a broken neck. The neck was that of a mid-30's Fern. This was many years ago so things do happen to F5 necks to the point they need to be totally replaced and how you go about to replace that neck and basically send it back to the original owner in "as new" condition would be up to the repair guy and not so much Gibson's policies on warrenty work which I doubt they even had a policy. PeeWee not being the original owner broke the repaired F5 neck and said to heck with it and tossed it vs. a heafty repair bill from Gibson for not being original owner. Sorta like in a GM/Ford/Chrysler new car under warrenty that blows an engine. Do you replace the whole engine or rebuild it. Which is cheaper? One mystery in Loar F5 repair work was on the one that had the old holes plugged, new ones re-drilled for the then 30's tuners that would not fit Loar spacing, refinish the overlay and send it back to the customer with those old plugged holes visable. What was that repair guy thinking?
Or did Gibson even do that job? Maybe a violin luthier who was use to plugging holes for worn out violin pegs do the job and just ordered new Gibson tuners for an F5 not knowing they don't make them the same way 10 years later.
I don't consider that repair anymore bizzare then the guy at Gibson who thought it best for Earl to put on a new '49 BowTie fingerboard and toss out his nice vintage Granada fancy inlayed fingerboard vs. just putting in new frets. Did he think the new thick frets wouldn't fit the old style thin ones? I bet Earl is still scratching his head on that one.  Inquiring minds want to know!

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## markishandsome

Showing pictures of refinished mandos doesn't prove anything. No one is disputing that many Gibsons, including Loars, had factory refins. Asking questions and speculating as to possible explanations is the only way we learn anything.

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## danb

The explanation that I currently think fits best is the "Dealer refurb". Frank Ford ones posted an anecdote around his documentation of one of the last 3-pointers, 10132:



Here we see a particularly strange anomaly, what is clearly a 3-point Gibson F2 in a Loar case. The explanation for this piece that the original owner gave Frank was that it was a factory refurbishment, to be refretted, refinished, and fitted with a new case.

I'm looking for the conversation unsuccessfully, but we got into talking about how teacher-dealers at the time would look for neglected or damaged instruments for refurbishment.. an obvious good source of profit for them. 

Working to refurbish their old stock would also be in the best interests of the factory- much cheaper to make a new instrument from an existing one. I'd be very interested to look at old paperwork & receipts for this information. I expect that something of that nature will be very helpful to explain what went on.. especially a vintage receipt documenting a repair, for example.

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## chris

On a Loar F-5 there is a way to see if it was a refin or original finish. It has to be done under a black light and you have to know what to look for. Chances are even the best refin missed a tiny spot somewhere, Like under the fingerboard extension.
 I put a unsigned Loar that had the lacquer finish and found a trace of varnish on it. So it wasn't a original Lacquer finished unsigned.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Another thought might be comformance to factory specs. It could be possible that as they changed catalog specs, a few unsold/in-stock intruments were refinished or otherwise modified to conform to the latest specs at pictured and stated in the catalog. (ie gold parts, lacquer finish, block inlay and such)

Again, theories and thoughts simply intended to challenge the contention that all of these instruments were sent back to the factory by the owner to re-do. Obviously some were.

F5LOAR, the Red Fern Loar. Henry Garris had all the original paperwork showing where it was ordered on one date and received on another. Both dates were within a couple of months of each other in mid to late 1926. Eugene Claycomb paid full list price plus a token fee for the custom order. He received a March 31, 1924 signed and dated Red finished Loar F-5 with a 1924 serial number.

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## markishandsome

How many other Loars come with the original paperwork? Do they typically show purchase dates that line up with signature dates?

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## Bob Sayers

I find this thread so interesting. I'm a cultural anthropologist (as well as a long-time amateur musician), so it seems natural to look to the original context in which these instruments were owned and played. Indeed, I think that Dan B. has so far offered the most plausible explanation(s) for the anomalous instruments. Gibson presumably sold--and may very well have lent--some of its newest models (F-5s, L-5s, etc.) to noted players of the day in return for their endorsements. (Hasn't that always been the case?) As the instruments developed problems, they came back to the company periodically for replacement or refurbishment. I doubt that anyone at the time was particularly sensitive to preserving the "historical integrity" of the instruments. So they got new fingerboards, new tuners, new finishes--whatever was available and whatever it took to make them functionally and cosmetically whole again. I'm willing to bet that there was a little corner of the Gibson shop where, periodically, one of the workers would turn his attention to a batch of instruments in for repairs and refurbishment. 

Just as an aside: Back in the late '60s when I was in college, I managed to scrape together all of $300 which I hoped would be enough to purchase my first "good" guitar--I was thinking a slightly-used D-28. Improbable as it now seems, I turned up not just a good Martin, but a wonderful 1942 herringbone D-28 that someone had consigned to a local music store. It needed a new bridge and the crazed finish and wear around the soundhole bothered me a bit. So I wrote to Martin and asked how much it would cost to have the thing completely refurbished: new finish, Grover Rotomatics to replace the butterbean tuners, the works. Fortunately, the figure they quoted me was a good deal more than I could afford (in fact, more than I paid for the guitar!). So I was saved from making a colossal mistake. But that was typical for the times. 

Bob

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## f5loar

Ah, but had you been the original owner of that prewar Martin and needed those repairs in the 60's at no cost to you , then you would have done it! And that has happened to many prewars going back to Martin. They would retop vs. repair a crack. New neck vs. straighten old one, etc. Gibson had that same mentality in the 50's and 60's with no regard for the value of a prewar investment.

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## Michael Gowell

I agree, but that value is real only now, not then. #Back then guitars and mandolins were just "used" rather than "vintage."

Two associated questions -

Who was the first dealer (or player) to promote the "vintage" concept? #We usually hear about George Gruhn or Stan Jay & his long-departed partner (and what was the story on that guy?) #Anyone else noteworthy?

Were violins the only other instruments revered for their "vintage" qualities? #And how far back?

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## Bob Sayers

Exactly right, f5loar. I remember that time.     

Bob

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## Bob Sayers

Maine Michael, I can remember a couple of dealers in vintage stringed instruments that pre-date the Gruhn/Mandolin Bros. era. There was a famous place called the Fret Shop on the south side of Chicago run by a guy named Liebenguth, as I recall. He had some great pearl Martins. And, of course, Lundberg's in Berkeley, California. And maybe Vintage Instruments in Philadelphia; I don't know exactly when that came along. 

Bob

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## Bob Sayers

Oh, I forgot: There was a violin dealer named Sid Sherman in an upstairs shop on Michigan Avenue in the Chicago Loop. In addition to his super high-end violins (genuine Strads, Amatis, etc.), he had a glass wall case full of vintage mandolins. Some were Italian and, according to Sid, were worth big bucks. But he always had a pristine F-4 or A-4 in there, too. The other thing I remember about Sid: He was a very dignified little man; but he had hanging by the door a picture of himself playing violin in a Hollywood cowboy band during the 1930s. We always thought that was really cool!

Bob

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## AlanN

Ken brings up my Loar, I will tell what I know, based on Gilchrist, Dexter Johnson, Grisman and Charlie D. info:

73675, label signed by Loar on 13-Jun-23. Went back to the factory in the 50's, presumably for a re-fin. At that time, the body binding (front and back) was re-done into a wider motif. This apparently was in vogue at the time. The instrument was re-finished in lacquer. I have photos of it in this condition. A subsequent owner had a meatier neck built for it by Randy Wood. In 1998, Gilchrist re-installed the original neck, which had travelled with the thing. He also re-did the body binding to Loar spec and re-finished the whole thing in a period varnish, cremona stain. Even the 'new' binding was appropriately given an aged look. Someone described it as looking like it must have looked in 1923.

Steve G. worked his magic, and she is indeed a marvel.

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## Links

I also find this thread very interesting. As a collector and player of mostly Gibson banjos, but also older Martin Guitars and Gibson mandolins, I have always been interested in Gibson's manufacturing process.

We know that Gibson built banjos in "batches", and that most of the batch numbers were for similar, if not exactly, the same instruments. For example, all of the banjos from 9027 were TB-4 archtops tenors. However, as you get into the 1930's when the popularity of the banjo was starting to wane, Gibson was likely to do anything. During this period, Gibson built many "floorsweep" models in which they used any component that might be laying around in various bins. Batch numbers, although fairly reliable, could have also been all over the map.

Of course, banjos parts and components are much more interchangable, and basically bolted together, but it is certainly not beyond the realm of believability to think that mandolins could have suffered the same fate as banjos. I suspect that a number of mandolins (probably not a large number as there were not that many being produced) were built that defied the conventional model specifications. I might look at anything beyond the norm sceptically, but sure wouldn't presume that it could not be legit. It is my understanding that someone has Gibson shipping records for banjos (and could possibly include mandolins and guitars), but at present are not sharing the information. Hopefully, they will be available soon and clear up some cloudy issues.

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## HoGo

I'm a bit late here. Good eye, Darryl.
Yes the F4 I posted was refinished. And very poorly IMO. There are even some bubbles in the finish and some cracks where the finish is way too thick. Also looks like the back was sanded pretty thin in the center (it created a flat spot where it sits on the bottom of the case). Some other reapirs are visible, too. 
Dan, I will send you the pics when I have some free time.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Thanks the vote of confidence HOGO. If it looks like a duck, it usually is a duck

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here is my new "distressed" label that I put in the '23 snake the other night

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## Darryl Wolfe

another view with more accurate color

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## mandolooter

nice...but distressing!

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## Darryl Wolfe

> nice...but distressing!


It actually looks just like the original one in my '25 snake. That one has a couple of stains, a lifted slightly torn edge, ect ect

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## Darryl Wolfe

'25 label

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## danb

Messing around with the camera again

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## Jim Hilburn

You can see that the wire in the loops has been flattened where it crosses itself, indicating that it took a fair amount of force to press it into the plastic.

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## Jim Hilburn

Are the flower and star inlays missing in the dark spaces?

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## mandolooter

So Darryl...how did ya distress the label? It is nearly identical to the other one.

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## Jerry Byers

> You can see that the wire in the loops has been flattened where it crosses itself, indicating that it took a fair amount of force to press it into the plastic.


Unless they were looped and flattened prior to setting them.

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## cooper4205

here's my contribution to the thread

# 80377 1923 F2

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## cooper4205



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## Ken Waltham

I haven't checked any lists, but, I think that serial number is a little high to be a '23.
They would be like a 72XXX to 74XXX I think, off the top of my head. 75"s are in 1924, this one could be a late, late '24, or more likely a '25.
Again, this is me just in from a nightshift with no serial number list, just memory.
The logo is not a 23 logo style, I don't believe.

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## danb

Yes Ken's right.. 803xx is either Dec '24 by the last Loar signatures, or Jan '25 range. Some of the "unsigned" batch (varnish F5s with no signature label) hit that range roughly..

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## danb

> Are the flower and star inlays missing in the dark spaces?


No, they're there.. just a slightly odd focus thing going on there. They are inset

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## Darryl Wolfe

> So Darryl...how did ya distress the label? #It is nearly identical to the other one.


I have paper that is close in color to a clean aged original. I used an exacto knife to pull a wrinkle/tear or two in the label while the glue was still fresh. I mixed one tbl instant coffee with 3 tbls water and just dropped some on with the eraser end of a pencil for the little stain

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## mandolooter

wow...sounds pretty simple...I had imagined a lot lengthier process.

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## cooper4205

> I haven't checked any lists, but, I think that serial number is a little high to be a '23.
> They would be like a 72XXX to 74XXX I think, off the top of my head. 75"s are in 1924, this one could be a late, late '24, or more likely a '25.
> Again, this is me just in from a nightshift with no serial number list, just memory.
> The logo is not a 23 logo style, I don't believe.


really? the mandolin archive lists it as '23- you think its a mistake (on the archive)? 

i just went back looked at the list on the archive, instead of searching for the number, and the SN is in the middle of the other 1924's. so i guess it's a '24 F2 and not a '23. in fact it looks like the last F2 before loar quit signing the F5's (SN 80416) so i guess that settles it.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Very very late '24 or early 1925. #In fact there are earlier numbered F5's that are not signed, and there most likely is no exact correlation between the serial numbers and the signature dates for all cases. Theory has it that the labels were signed in groups for batches and placed in the mandos at a finished stage. Definately not 1923

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## cooper4205

thanks guys- is there any way to pinpoint the date, or is it mostly educated guesses?

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## Darryl Wolfe

coop..I edited my response slightly

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## danb

> really? the mandolin archive lists it as '23- you think its a mistake (on the archive)?


Oops yes, my mistake! I've corrected it.

Cooper- to some extent all of these are educated guesses. Loar signed the master model instruments on a label that came with a month and year date on it.. to some extent those signed instruments form the basis for the serial number to year correlations I put on the archive. I've also been working to correct what I feel are slight mistakes in some of the earlier charts- most Gibsons numbered 2500-12000 get bumped forward a few years from what I think was their real date of manufacture. 

The process is a slow one- every so often some interesting paperwork will turn up, either a date stamp in a catalog or an original receipt with an instrument, that forces us to re-evaluate these listings again.

For the 1922-1925 range, it's mostly checking proximity to a known signed Loar instrument.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Dan is right on. #The signature dates in style 5 instruments are the only correlation. #Finding sales receipts and such other paperwork is all anyone can go on at this late stage of the game.

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## danb

This F2 is a neat piece, it brakets the period and shows up right at the end of Lloyd's stint at Gibson. I had 81564 for a while, which was a virzi A4 snakehead.. that one had a lacquer topcoat on it so it showed signs of the post-Loar or what is called the "Fern" period (from the peghead overlays on the post-Loar F5s). You could probably go so far as to say "December 1924 or January 1925" if you wanted to keep it in the range of the serial numbers on known Loars.. The last signed Loar label we have is 80416, which is dated Dec 1 1924. I suppose I've made a second mistake now, and I should change the year in the archive to 1924 now!

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## cooper4205

thanks for clearing that up guys. 

i don't see how you guys have the patience to keep track of all those mando's and remember all the confusing details, but i sure am glad you do. keep it up

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## Darryl Wolfe

coop. one other thing to keep in mind is that "The Gibson" script on yours. #As Ken mentions, it is later. #By being later we can almost certainly take the instrument into 1925. #Yours is the earliest serial number I have seen it on. #I have only seen a few of that pattern and they are usually on 81xxx and 82xxx mandolins. The instrument also appears to have "worm over" tuners. Those are simply not seen on '24's to my knowlege.

But, again, nothing is exact in this science.

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## cooper4205

the tuner thing is interesting. the first mandolin i could find with the worm-overs (like mine has) was 75079, but then the next A-model's listed have worm-under gears and i couldn't find another picture of the worm-overs until number 77126. these seem to be the exact ones on mine

the first F2 i could find with tuners like mine was from '24 as well, 78221, which looks almost identical, even the headstock inlay seems to resemble it

the next one listed 78304 looks to have a slightly different inlay and the worm-under tuners


i noticed while looking that the A-styles seem to start using the worm-under gears fairly regularly for a few of the A-styles (low-ends) from SN 77126 and then as soon as it gets to 78xxx, they go back to worm-under except for the F2 linked above that looks close to mine.

i see why it's hard to pin down exact dates on these things. 

i wonder why the of the worm-over gears spread in amongst the worm-under ones?

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## Darryl Wolfe

good question coop., and good catch on the fact that there are some worm overs in 1924. #For signed Loar F-5's there is only one known worm-over style tunered mandolin.

Yes they are "splattered" and that is pretty much why I feel that pegheads are drilled after the mandos are finished and complete. #That would support a suggestion that they may not necessarily have been strung up and sent out the door in serialized order. #I will now go look at your references and I'm sure there will be additional anomolies with the specific mandos

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## Darryl Wolfe

My report back: #
75079 has replaced, newer worm over tuners and the peghead is drilled for worm under style
77126 has replaced older worm over tuners, peghead is drilled for worm under style.
78221 is original with original worm over tuners, however, it like yours has the 1925 style inlay, metal pickguard bracket and lacquer finish, all indicative of 1925 or later

So, my point is on 78221 and yours, other features for 1925 are present also, not just a simple set of tuners ect

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## cooper4205

is mine a varnish or a lacquer, if you can tell from a picture. it's not as shiny as in the pics i posted on the other page. 

sorry to keep bugging you about it, just trying to find out all i can about this thing and what some of the subtle differences are between the different years of manufacturing when it comes to these things. thanks alot

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## Darryl Wolfe

I'm guessing lacquer based on the dark and abrupt sunburst and how dark the binding is. The pictures alone are not enough to tell. Usually, varnished mando lose (or do not have) the finish over the pearl script and binding. Yours is there.

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## danb

Could you take a close up of the center of the scroll viewed from a slightly oblique angle? That's where I look usually for lacquer signs. What did Charles say it was? He certainly knows his stuff!

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## cooper4205

i'm at work now, but i'll try and get a shot up when i get out of class tomorrow. i guess i could also take it by Will Parsons' shop and see what his opinion is on type of finish. 

I can almost swear Charles told me it was a varnish finish, but i was looking at a couple of F2's and F4's at the time and can't remember 100% for sure. i took it for granted it was varnish, since i thought it was a '23 until earlier today!

thanks again for your time fellas

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## danb

Well again, this isn't always black & white! Some of the July 9 Loars appear to have a light lacquer topcoat sprayed over the varnish. I've had this conversation with a couple of builders, and definitely feel my limits of understanding.. but the lacquer topcoat sprayed on is a sealer, and could help the varnish cure faster. Maybe it was an experiment on the july 9 loars.. maybe it came back later. Usually the way the finish patinas is a little different.. lacquer seems to craze with larger space between cracks, varnish forms millions of tiny fractures. 

I look at that scroll area because sometimes lacquer is thicker, you can see the relief of the finish like the curvature of an eyeball there. Then again, thin lacquer is harder to spot, maybe a little extra sheen or shine to it.. I'd be curious to hear from folks in the know how they spot it too!

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## JimRichter

I've had a lot of nice instruments, but this is the one I still miss terribly.

I owned it about 5 or 6 years ago. It's a 27 F4. Was nearly mint, except for a repaired heel crack.

I never had any photos of it. I was searching stuff through the Wayback Machine internet archive the other day, and found these photos from Tony Williamson's site (I had traded the mando to Tony for a Gibson Sam Bush, which, of course, I no longer own and in way compared to the beauty and tone of this F4).

Jim

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## JimRichter

The exquisite back. can't recall the serial number of it.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Wow Jim, That is special

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## JimRichter

This was a nice little 1914 F2 that I played for awhile. The blacktop is a refin.

Jim

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## JimRichter

> Wow Jim, That is special


If only I'd known then what I know now. I don't mean in the sense of it's vintage value, but rather where I'd be going as far as my mandolin/musical direction. At that time I decided I needed a "Bluegrass" instrument and always loving the sound of Bush's mandolin, traded with Tony. But over time, my blues playing as well as my love of old time fiddle tunes has taken over taking me back to oval holes. If only I still had that mandolin.

But it seems I'm getting myself a nice '26 F2 w/ some pedigree, so things have almost come full circle. That was part of the reason for looking at some of the photos I have of oval holes I used to have.

Jim

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## squirrelabama

Jim- I almost bought that F4 from Tony!! I already had a '24 and was smitten (below). Wanted to start a harem, but my wife was agianst that idea....:D

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## squirrelabama

Helps to attach these things.

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## MML

Ok you guys stop posting those pics, your making me miss my ole 21 F4 I sold recentley. 
Wouldn't it be great if we could keep them all!

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## Driver8

What a lovely mandolin,one like that black F2 or a three pointer would be my dream instrument,beautiful.

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## f5loar

Sounds like your wife would rather have another house then a Loar era mandolin with F holes

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## carleshicks

here are a few vintage Gibson's, well one isn't

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## carleshicks

here are the headstocks

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## carleshicks

here is the 22 f-4 case and the 25 a-4 case they are in pretty rough shape. 
Bill Monroe signed the inside of my A-4 Case when I was 11 or 12 years old. He played a few songs on it and told me to hang on to it it was a good one.

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## carleshicks

here they are closed

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## carleshicks

here is the original price tag and case key for the A-4

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## JimRichter

My current mandolin:

1926 F2. John Reischman bought it in Alberta Canada from the widow of the original owner. Michael Heiden put on a radiused fretboard, otherwise original.

I haven't played an oval regularly in 5 or 6 years. It's definitely fun getting back into it. Been wearing out my Jethro and Norman Blake records this week!

Jim

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## JimRichter

back

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## cooper4205

She's a beauty, Jim. I can't wait to hear it on one of your youtube clips

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## MandoSquirrel

Congrats on the arrival, look forward to clips, also!

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## Calvin

WOW!

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## delsbrother

How about this pic off the 'bay? Love the binding, inlaid 'guard, and headstock damage!

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## danb

Here are a few macro shots from today on the 3pt

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## sprucetop1

Here's my mandolins.  F2 no. 16661   A4 no. 21171 and A1 no. 88214, all with orig. cases.  A 1976 GTR F5 has crept into the front of the pic.....

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## woodwizard

Nice macro shots there danb! and that's a nice looking love seat full of sweet things there for sure. I am so jealous.

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## danb

Sometimes I get something for the archive that just blows me away. This is H4 86134, and it is really a hum-dinger. It shows loar-period peghead inlay (slanted) so may have been a hold-over. The pictures really do the talking here

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## danb

Here's something really cool, a photo of the Gibson Parsons St Kalamazoo factory under construction, courtesy of Stan Werbin at Elderly

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## Scott Tichenor

I don't often get to post anything in this area some I'm happy to share pictures of my newly acquired 1924 A2Z, serial #74956. This is really a spectacular find, acquired from the classifieds.  :Smile:

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## f5loar

And a blonde nonetheless.  They say blondes have more fun.  No doubt you will plenty fun with this blonde. 
Beautiful example of a great model built in an even greater year. No doubt the Loar master was overlooking this one when it was built to last generations.

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## sgarrity

That looks like one exceptionally clean A2Z.  If it's the one I'm thinking of, that was a darn good deal on it too!

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## Scott Tichenor

It's official. I've had it with the stock market and my 401K (201k?) and am turning my attention to other methods of stimulating the economy... the mandolin economy that is.  :Grin: 

My newest toy which received a proper hour-long whomping on the patio this evening after decades (my guess) of sitting idle. There'll be none of that around this house. Just needed a proper bath, new strings, a visit to the beauty parlor, a bit of love and someone to treat it special. This baby is experiencing some new music it's never before played (OK, that's a guess). _Mon ami, you found the right man_. Alright, stop it, you two.

Bit of info from the Mandolin Archive. My camera battery ran out in shooting these pix or I'd have more. Dan tells me this is a number or two off a Loar. Maybe someone can chime in on that. This little guy sounds just terrific.

#72201, 1923 Gibson Snakehead

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## JEStanek

That's a good 10th Anniversary Present.

Jamie

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here's the latest addition to my stable

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## Darryl Wolfe

and this incredibly clean H2 mandola

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## Michael Gowell

Congrats, Daryl, especially on that snakehead A-4.  Don't I recall some discussion about the scarcity - some even claimed nonexistence - of snake A-4's?

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## Darryl Wolfe

Thanks...no it would be snake A-3's that maybe somewhere out there is one of them, but we doubt it.  A3's overlapped the start of snakeheads, but one has never been seen.

The A4's are quite scarce similar to A2z's

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## Bill Halsey

> The A4's are quite scarce similar to A2z's


Very rare, very desirable, AND very fine condition... great score, Darryl!

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## sgarrity

That A4 is mighty fine looking.  And it was a darn god deal too!

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## Darryl Wolfe

Holy cow, I got it and it is even cleaner than expected.  As far as a good deal, it worked out fine as I did a straight trade to get it

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## Glassweb

How's she sound Darryl?

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## Darryl Wolfe

Next to my '25 A2.  This thing is monster loud and does not back down when you drive it.  Very un-oval hole A model like.  The '25 A2 sounds very much the same as did two other '25 straight A's that Gruhn had.  I believe there is something different on these '25's.  Maybe it is the first use of the newer soft lacquer finish or maybe they are voiced out a little different.  Serial is 82619, a bit after the A2 81547

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## f5loar

Looks near mint to me in the first photos.  While the A4 from this era are indeed rare to find I never understood why Gibson did not follow the pattern of other 4s like the F4 and have a bound headstock.  It's the same as the 2Z with a little flower thrown in the middle of the head. A little fancier hole marque.  A slightly extended fingerboard and that's the difference.

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## squirrelabama

It's been a while since I've posted. Finally got off my rear and had a little photo session today! 1924 L-3; 1925 H-4 and 1924 F-4. Enjoy!

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## squirrelabama

one more...
1913 K-1; 1924 A2=Z

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## sgarrity

That's quite a collection.  Thanks for sharing!

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## squirrelabama

couple more......

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## Bill Halsey

Terrific collection -- thanks for sharing the great pix!

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## squirrelabama

Thanks! Glad you liked them. They sure are fun to play and listen to!

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## fatt-dad

Yeah, I got an old Gibson and an older father (he's c. 1919, it's 1920).

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## Darryl Wolfe

What are we looking at on the peghead of the L3 Geoff?

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## Mike Black

> What are we looking at on the peghead of the L3 Geoff?


Good eye Darryl, that's a good question.  What is that?  Inquiring minds want to know.   :Smile:

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## squirrelabama

Darryl & Mike- I have no idea what it is called, and have never seen it on a Mando ever. The serial # is 73690. While this might be '23 or '24 (Darryl?) the place ment of the truss rod cover makes me think the guitar was made earlier, kind of transitional. Or at least the neck was made earlier. Here is a shot of the HS. I'd be curious to know if anyone is familiar with this inlay,and what it is commonly called. Thanks! -Geoff

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## danb

> Darryl & Mike- I have no idea what it is called, and have never seen it on a Mando ever. The serial # is 73690. While this might be '23 or '24 (Darryl?) the place ment of the truss rod cover makes me think the guitar was made earlier, kind of transitional. Or at least the neck was made earlier. Here is a shot of the HS. I'd be curious to know if anyone is familiar with this inlay,and what it is commonly called. Thanks! -Geoff


I think that's the L3 "snowflake". Here're a couple from the archive, one "uncut" by the truss rod

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## Darryl Wolfe

Well,  I'll be tarred and feathered...I've never seen such

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## danb

Did Luke just teach Yoda a new trick?   :Grin: 

Geoff- I reckon you're right by the way, it's just like the A3 inlay shows up "cut" by the truss pocket on the first examples. I have at least one L3 later with a truss rod, but no inlay on the peghead

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## Bill Halsey

For mandolin content, we'll have to imagine one hidden under a workbench... well, Dan _did_ say 'Vintage Gibson Shot', so here goes anyway...


Photo courtesy of Clarence L. Miller Family local history room, Kalamazoo Public Library.

This is from a packet of reprinted cards available at the Kalamazoo Public Library. No indication of copyright, so I'll put it here.  Taken c. 1934 inside the Gibson "daylight" factory at 225 Parsons St., built in 1917.

The reverse states:

"In the 1930s the Gibson Guitar Company of Kalamazoo, Michigan, was the largest factory in the world devoted exclusively to making stringed musical instruments.  In 1934, the company's 250 workers produced about 200 instruments each day, most of which were guitars."

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## brunello97

Great photo, Bill, thanks for posting it. I love these Gibson factory photos.  I have a KM11 from just a couple years later, it is nice to see the context.  In the heart of the Depression, Gibson had 250 workers employed.  My KZoo is a nice axe, a credit to their workmanship at all levels.

Mick

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## mando1man

Big mandolin, regular mandolin
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/im.../jpg.gifndolin.

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## Bill Snyder

Your link doesn't do any good, just goes to the Mandolin Cafe "File Not Found" page.

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## JFDilmando

on a cold winters night, old folks make new friends....

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## Darryl Wolfe

Awesome photo

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## goaty76

Here's some of my Gibsons.  Since this photo was taken a few of these have been passed on to new owners but a few really cool ones have been added.

Phil

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## Annette Siegel

> Oof. I did 55 new images in the archives today, now bringing the total to 4673 pictures of 3172 instruments.


Alright your inspiring me to get going with my own Mandolin photo shoot!  Great photos & Mandolins Dan.  Thanks for your work on the archive, it's a great treasure.  :Smile: 

Annette
www.livingtreemusic.com

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## Bernie Daniel

> couple more......


Uff Dah Ollie!  Now der's the pic for the week by golly!  Next tell me the F-5 and H-5 are one number apart!

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## Ken Waltham

Do you mean F4 and H4?

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## lenf12

Here's my "go to" trio and although one is not a Gibson (Duff H-5 mandola), they all play together very well.



Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## pfox14

> Here's some of my Gibsons.  Since this photo was taken a few of these have been passed on to new owners but a few really cool ones have been added.
> 
> Phil


WOW! That is one impressive collection of vintage Gibson instruments. Love the Style J mando-bass and the early "paddle head" style L guitar. Is that an L-3? What year is it?

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## goaty76

The paddlehead guitar is a 1903 Style O.  It is serial number 2623 and has the build features of Orville Gibson's original instruments.  There is an L-3(refinished) there however.  It is between the Special #7 and the later Style O in the first pic.  Paul, I know your definitly familiar with one of my other Gibsons (having given it it's nick name).

Phil

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## Masterbilt

3 Gibsons - 2 small, 1 big:






Felix

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## ourgang

> Here's my "go to" trio and although one is not a Gibson (Duff H-5 mandola), they all play together very well.
> 
> 
> 
> Len B.
> Clearwater, FL


What model is the mandolin in the center?

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## lenf12

> What model is the mandolin in the center?


It's a 1956 F-12 (s/n A24586, FON V-6292) that apparently went back to Gibson at some point (I suspect during the early to mid 1970's) for a neck replacement. The "new" neck is maple rather than mahogany with the F-5 headstock leading me to conclude it's a replacement rather than an original variation on their standard specs from 1956. It appears that Gibson or the then owner elected to re-use the original fingerboard. I have owned this mandolin for about 10 years and sent it off to Randy Wood to have it revoiced (regraduate the top and back) and the tone bars (logs) replaced with properly sized and tuned tone bars. This work was done in 2008 and is one of the best decisions I've made to improve its tone and volume. This mandolin is soft and sweet or loud and mean and everything in between. It also has that checked nitro lacquer finish that just exudes vintage mojo imho. I love it!!! Thanks for asking "ourgang".

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## pfox14

> The paddlehead guitar is a 1903 Style O.  It is serial number 2623 and has the build features of Orville Gibson's original instruments.  There is an L-3(refinished) there however.  It is between the Special #7 and the later Style O in the first pic.  Paul, I know your definitly familiar with one of my other Gibsons (having given it it's nick name).
> 
> Phil


Would that happen to be your "cat's eye" special?

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## ourgang

Thanks Len.  Kind of what I was thinking.  Nice mando for sure.  A friend of mine played a great F-12 from the 50's.

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## Mike Black

Here are a few Gibson's that were hanging around the house.  



1919-H2, 1922-F2, 1924-A4, 1924-F2 & 1928-F2

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## Jim Garber

There are some fine looking sofas in this thread!

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## Mike Snyder

Which Gibson is your keeper, Mike?

----------


## Mike Black

> Which Gibson is your keeper, Mike?


Only the H2 and A4 are mine.  The A4 blows them all out of the water.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## Mike Romkey

Wow! You'll have to get those out next time.

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## Mike Black

Updated and finalized!   :Smile: 



1919-H2, 1922-F2, 1923-F4 and 1924-A4

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