# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  Cadillac sky fired at mountain view, ark

## Ted Lehmann

This weekend Cadillac Sky was scheduled to play five sets over three days at the Mountain View Bluegrass Festival in Mountain View, ARK. After playing one set, according to Lilozarkfiddler at Bluegrass Rules they were sent home. You can read Cadillac Sky's own account of this disgraceful event here.
The ethical and professional lapse by the promoter far exceeds any damage that may or may not have been done to this very fine group. Nevertheless, such behavior deserves your attention. 

_&lt;Comment edited. It is not appropriate to list the email address of people outside of this web site without their permission&gt;_

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## Chris Biorkman

That's pretty lame if you ask me.

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## bradeinhorn

"bluegrass isn't bluegrass" 

-fred s.

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## AlanN

Now, fred s. may be on to something

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## mandopete

Couldn't get the article - what happened?

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## mboucher

Same here. I couldn't find it.

Mark

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## Chris Biorkman

This is from their Myspace page:

Gather round kids and lemme tell you the tale of the Mtn. View Mishap.....

The Mtn. View, Arkansas tourism board has an easy job. They have lots to boast about**: beautiful rustic scenery, charming inhabitants, a quaint town square, etc. But there is one feature that they don't let the rest of the world know about in the pamphlets: Andy, the "Bluegrass Emperor".
I'm not quite sure when he was brought to power, but he does reign supreme at the 5th Annual Mtn. View Bluegrass Festival, with the Ozark Folk Center his palace. I'm guessing that many have already made the long, switchback-filled, pilgrimage to Mountain View to find out the answer to that ever-ellusive question- what "is" and "isn't" bluegrass? Well, Cadillac Sky, unknowingly, went off to see the "Wizard" this past weekend. With our three-part harmonies and banjo-fiddle-acoustic guitar- mandolin-and upright-bass-instrumentation in tow, we approached "Andy the All-Knowing" (unofficial, but very deserving, nickname). And to our surprise, we were sent away from the "Wizard" with watery eyes and slumped shoulders, under the proclamation that we "weren't bluegrass". We were cast out of Mtn. View, never to return, as the crowds of one person chanted "that's not bluegrass!", "that's not bluegrass!".
We were suppose to play five sets of music there in Mtn. View, but a 45-minute gospel set laced with such new-wave progressive titles like "Cryin' Holy?", "Wayfaring Stranger", "Rock in a Weary Land", and finally, "Never Been so Blue" (A tribute song to THE Father of Bluegrass Music: Bill Monroe with twin-fiddles?) sealed our fate, and led to our undoing. 
So to all of you who were there, expecting to hear us and instead got " the truths of Andy, the Bluegrass Nazi" (uh-oh, did I say that?), we apologize for our misgivings that we could, like wolves in sheep's clothing, play a "bluegrass" festival. "Andy" knows better than you do what you like and it should not be left up to you to decide. Thanks Andy for the insight......

- Cap'n Dook!

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## mandopete

No contract?

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## woodwizard

That is so sad! After hearing of this ...being from Arkansas I was ashamed of Mt. View. I have been to the folk center many times to see some great shows. The Nashville Bluegrass Band, Norman & Nancy Blake, The Jerry Douglas Band (do you think they sound like Bluegrass?), to name a few good shows, and did the traditional jamming around the old courthouse many times but this is just crazy. I don't think my band will go back there anymore.

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## mandopete

So did this promoter have no idea who Cadillac Sky was? I find it hard to believe that they didn't at least listen to the band before hiring them.

I also find it hard to believe that they didn't have some sort contract for the performance, perhaps they did. In any event I hope they got paid.

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## lovethemf5s

I don't want to offend anyone but I saw Cadillac Sky perform at the 2007 RiverCity Bluegrass Festival in Portland, Oregon. These guys were talented musicians but loud. I mean really loud. I went to some rock concerts in the 1960's and they could compete in volume with some of them. After one song I exercised my right to not stay and left the venue as fast as possible.

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## sgarrity

I'd have to agree. They are extremely progressive, to put it lightly.
If the promoter didn't want them there, that wouold be his right if and ONLY IF he honored their contract and paid them. If he stiffed 'em, he deserves a whoopin!

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## AlanN

Excessive loudness is not good, IMO.

Progressive is good, IMO.

Getting stiffed is not good, IMO.

Getting people to talk about the band is good, IMO.

The mandolin and guitar guy think/play alike, IMO.

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## andrew gates

He could have asked them to play a little more traditional set, asked them to lower the volume (who runs the sound board anywho?) and done an number of other things to tolerate the band if they offended him so much. But to fire them outright in the middle of the festival is just really without class. Reward the guy with empty seats next year, what an egomaniac. I agree also with the post that said did he not listen to them prior to hiring the band?  

If he didn't he is the one who is unprofessional and he should be nailed to the floor. What a complete jerk to dishonor people who showed up to do what they were hired to do. An ego trip pure and simple... Now pay the price for your own actions.  

All you have done is make a Martyr out of a fine young band....

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## MikeEdgerton

I was under the impression that promoters listened to what the band sounded like before they booked them. Some bands that aren't bluegrass fit in quite nicely at bluegrass festivals. An example would be the Riders in the Sky. I'm going to guess that nobody bothered to audition this band via tape or whatever. Seems like a lot of wasted effort and I hope they had a contract and got paid any way.

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## drewgrass

i saw them open for skaggs and thunder, and sam bush, on the same bill.i thought they were good and i had never heard of them. sam bush was way more progressive than them but thats not any new news. i love sam i wonder what this guy would have to say about his credentials, i thought i remebered a quote about learning to play bluegrass and then adding your spin to it. or something like that. i cant remember who said it, oh yeah it was bill monroe but what the hell does he know about bluegrass.

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## Tony Sz

IMHO, Cadillac Sky is a fantastic progressive Bluegrass band. One of the bright spots on the Bluegrass scene. OK, they're progressive. If all you like is traditional bluegrass, well, they might not be your favorite, but to dismiss them as not bluegrass makes no sense to me. It's a good thing Ricky Skaags didn't show up with Bruce Hornsby!

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## woodwizard

If you think they are loud check a Sam Bush show sometime. Loud in a good way...IMHO
With all that I've heard and read so far this guy in Mt. View appears to be a jerk!

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## mandopete

> He could have asked them to play a little more traditional set...


That's not right.

Again, how do hire a performer without any idea of what they sound like?

I mean, maybe he should have hired Carrie Underwood - she's gonna save county music ya know!

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## j-hill

I heard the band at IBMA and their live performance was more 'progressive' than their CD, 'Blind Man Walking.' #Their performance at IBMA, if I recall, had a bow being used on the bass for a jam-band-esque portion. #Mountain Heart, among other bands, will occasionally go into a jam-band type of performance for some of their tunes and I really enjoy it. #I thought Cadillac Sky's was a little more self-indulgent than really showing off their musicianship, but thats my opinion. # 

I bring this up only to say that a band's live performance may come across much more progressive than their CD.

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## mandolirius

&lt;Again, how do hire a performer without any idea of what they sound like?&gt;

By being a rank amateur which, unfortunately, too many people running bluegrass festivals are. I've spent a lifetime in the entertainment biz and continue to be amazed at the egomanical know-nothings I come across who think their little festival is a major entertainment event and they are some kind of kingpin. It's not exclusive to bluegrass of course, but there's still way too much of it. Most festival promoters are great, but the few who aren't tend to be completely over-the-top in terms of their self-image. They are, in a word, insufferable.

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## lgc

Has anyone heard the other side of the story? Maybe the meterial that he got when he booked them was more tradtionally oriented because thier booker knew that's what he wanted. Thats what good bookers do-target promoters. I don't think that there is anything wrong with a festival that wants to be more tradtional than less and that being the case isthere any possiblity the promoters were misled in any way. Albums and show can be VERY different and if this festival is known for being staunchly traditional maybe CS should not have opted to get into it.  I guess I'd wanna hear his side bfore deminizing the whole festival.
It also sounds like thier egos were bruised because he didn't think they were BG.  If CS was totally secure with thier status as a BG band why were they seeking his apporval in the first place and why did they write such an unsophisticated and sarcastic attack instead of showing they were above it?

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## Nick Alberty

I believe the promoter has the right to his opinion. There is music I can't stand that's called "bluegrass". I won't name names, but you'd know them for sure.

You have just as much right to disagree with him as he does to not like them because they "aren't bluegrass" enough for him.

Everybody has an opinion. 

Forget about it and let it go.

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## mandopete

No, we don't know the other side of story and I suppose it's in the realm of possibility that Cadillac Sky got up on stage and performed a vastly different set of music than what they have on their CD (Blind Man Walking). #I doubt it.

I saw them last year at Wintergrass and their performance was pretty much what was on the recording. #They had some difficulty with the sound system, but that's no reason to fire a band IMHO. #If they were too loud that's an issue for the sound man. #Again no reason to fire a band.

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## mandolirius

Of course there are two sides to every story, but firing a band in the middle of a festival is such a drastic and unusual thing to do that it practically invites comment. As for the promoter having the right to do whatever he wants cause it's his festival - well, that's the kind of attitude that often results in exactly the type of individual I described earlier. Plus, it's total BS. You don't have that right as a festival promoter because you have obligations, both contractual to the performers and moral to the paying customers. It's highly unprofessional. I expect the band received some negative feedback from the promoter, gave him some of his own back and he got mad a told them to take a hike. The truth is often tawdry.

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## woodwizard

Sure ... we haven't heard Andy (the bluegrass emperperor's) side. Having been to Mt. View serveral times thru out the years I always got a strange feeling about the way things were ran up that way so I kinda think that CS was telling it truthfully the way it all happened and I might add as nice as they could. If I had to deal with something like that I'm not sure I could have been as nice in my discription of the man as they were.

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## coletrickle

And you don't have the right as a promoter to tell the crowd and those who would come to see a show, perhaps something they had been looking forward to for a while, what is and isn't a particular genre of music. The job of the promoter is to secure talent within the ideals of the festival (in this case evidently traditional blugrass) and to ensure that financial obligations are met and not exceeded. Once those bands are booked and it is official, that's it. 

It is not the job of the promoter to decide what he thinks a band should and shouldn't be even if they play acoustic on their album and show up with electric instruments for the show. If it is a festival attendies pay for then they have the right to say they don't like it. If the festival is free, then count your loses and look elsewhere next year. If the festival is sponsered and those parties have a vested interest, then they get to drop their 2 cents and decide whether or not they want to bring their money back.

If your going to book one band for 5 show in a weekend, your putting a lot of stock in that band and saying "these guys are so good we are going to have them play 5 times for you so you can't miss it!" Thats why most festivals stick to the one or two performance schedule.

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## imstrider

Like them or not, Cadillac Sky has joined the ranks of some great musicians/composers. Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky are just a few of the famous classical composers who were booed of stage for being non-traditional. I seem to remember that the Beatles had some rough gigs too.

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## Ted Lehmann

Dan Ruby at Festival Preview has posted an article here presenting the promoters side of the story. In fairness, this ought to be read and considered. - Ted

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## Jonathan Peck

Well that's a horse of a completely different color.

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## mrmando

> Like them or not, Cadillac Sky has joined the ranks of some great musicians/composers.


Stravinsky, sure -- the riot at the 1907 debut of _Le sacre du printemps_ is well documented. But please tell me when Mozart was ever "booed off the stage." I have Maynard Solomon's biography of Mozart here and I am reasonably certain it contains no such episode. I know Beethoven had his troubles with critics and patrons, but again I would like to hear more about an incident where he was booed off the stage. 

And, sorry, _Amadeus_ and _Immortal Beloved_ don't count.

CS wasn't booed off the stage either ... they actually don't say anything about how their set was received by the _audience,_ just by the festival promoter.

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## mandopete

Thanks for the info Ted.

Yep, 2 sides to every story. Glad to hear they got paid. I still think a good review of their CD should have given the festival organizers a perspective on what the performance would be.

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## Jimmy Sample

You guys are all making some pretty serious assumptions here without hearing the full story. Sometimes it takes a while for the real story to come out...

Also, please don't let this incident be a reflection of Mt. View as a folk/bluegrass destination...If you're coming to Arkansas, don't miss the Ozark Folk Center and the court house square...it's a community rich in heritage and culture.

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## mrmando

Wait a minute -- their sound tech wouldn't turn the volume down even after being instructed to do so by the promoter? 

I have run sound at festivals once or twice, and you won't believe how many people think they have the right to tell you to turn it down. I ignore all such requests ... UNLESS THEY COME FROM THE PROMOTER.

Both the guitarists in my band plug in, so naturally I plug in as well, to make it easier for the sound tech to mix us. But this doesn't mean we have to crank it to 11.

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## words2singwith

So they got paid for the whole weekend wow. #Anyway I heard the sky at IBMA the room was huge and they were to loud on an instrumental there. #The bass was vibrating I blamed ole blue sound system, sorry old blue. #People were leaving some friends from Wisconsin told us they were very disappointed since they had #heard such great things about the band. #If it is true they were asked to turn the sound down at Mt View and refused. Well you can't please all the folks all the time but you are suppose to please the folks paying you. #I can't help but love so many of their songs, but I agree with turning the volume down. #

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## mrmando

> I still think a good review of their CD should have given the festival organizers a perspective on what the performance would be.


No, listening to the CD wouldn't address the issue of stage volume, and that seems to be the main sticking point here.

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## Jonathan Peck

> You guys are all making some pretty serious assumptions here without hearing the full story.


Like what? The promoter told them to turn it down, they refused. The promoter executed his right to terminate the contract. Since the band decided to air it out in the court of public opion, what's wrong with hearing the other side of the story?

What am I missing here?

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## mandolirius

Well, speaking as someone who was quite ready to criticize the promoter, I think I take it back. The reason is the part about the soundman not being willing to turn down the overall volume. That would be a promoter's perogative, unless it was specifically covered in the contract. That I can see as enough of a reason to cancel the rest of the weekend shows. I mean, if the first set is causing people to complaina and the band won't do something simple like turn down the overall volume, the promoter is left with little choice. I think, in retrospect, the band wrote a pretty disingenuous review of the weekend's events.

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## mandopete

From the information in the link that Ted posted it sounded like the soundperson was part of the band and not the festival itself (perhaps an assumption on my part). #I have been to festivals where the sound gets pretty cranked up and not always a good thing.

But that's where my curiousity about contractual agreements comes in. #If a performer refuses to do something that they are contractually required to do, then it's whole different ball game. #I have seen contracts for bluegrass festivals that specifically forbid electric instruments.

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## Jonathan Peck

One more thing. I've lost enough of my hearing due to being stupid with amplified instruments as a youngster that I protect what I have left from further damage. I think that the promoter deserves a huge thank you in this case. 

I won't even mention that they dress like a bunch of dirt bags...Ooops. I can definitely see the phrase 'traditional bluegrass' being used in this instance.

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## Jimmy Sample

No, I expect the band got A LOT of negative feedback from the customers...the audience, for the most part, are seniors and pretty conservative, so yep, I bet tyou had a good amount of fussin' And, don't you think the band shares a litte blame here...c'mon folks, I've heard some of this stuff and it don't fly with me. Cut the the promoter a little slack, I think he did the right thing!!!

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## coletrickle

Two sides come in every argument, take your pick or stay on the fence, so it is no surprise that following the initial post a second leveling perspective would surface. But the fact remains that this band was paid a lot of money (presumably) for a number of shows at the booking of the promoter, who in reaction to things not going as he/she liked/dictated pulled the plug. 

I'm not a promoter and I am not a patron of bluegrass festivals other than attending, but I know that if I was going to put that much stock in one band I would be 100% sure that a) they would be well received by the majority of the audience b) they understood the terms of the contract and that if amplified the festival reserved the right to reduce that noise and c) that the music played would fall into a certain relm of expectation. Whether that happened or not...I do not know but it seems some miscommunication occured, on-sided or not. 

The "falling out of traditional-bluegrass" argument coming from the festival side is really rather weak. Certainly this band did not show up to this festival with fresh material aimed at derailing those expecting 20 covers of gospel and I would venture to say that 90+% of their music had been heard in public prior to this festival. Promoters and bookers are responsible for the bands they book, not the other way around. They are not a cover band and live samples of their music is readily accessable online for those who do their homework. Furthermore they are not a gospel band, although they play some gospel numbers, so those expecting a traditional gospel show were either mis-lead by the festival or came unknowing and left unhappy.

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## coletrickle

> I won't even mention that they dress like a bunch of dirt bags...Ooops. I can definitely see the phrase 'traditional bluegrass' being used in this instance.


Great response...seriously if you don't like it don't listen and if you don't like the way they dress don't pay to see it live. I'm sure plenty of others would be happy to have a band like this come to their area/festival even if they showed up with dresses on.

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## Gutbucket

Gee, I wish we had a Bluegrass "Nazi" at the so called Bluegrass jams I attend. You would'nt believe what sneaks thru the door. Saxaphone one night, drum circle dudes another night. If it wasn't so sad, I'd laugh. Nobody has the guts to cut the stage mics. and show them to the door. These are widely advertised and promoted as "BLUEGRASS jams, but yet they still come. Gives a whole new meaning to open mic.

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## Crowder

I applaud the promoter for sticking to his guns, and I applaud C-Sky for sticking to theirs. I'm all for them doing what they are drawn to do in a creative sense, but it would be more professional for them to let promoters know that they aren't the typical bluegrass band. It might be that a traditional bluegrass festival is not the best gig for them. FWIW I think Thile's band would run into the same issue if they didn't do the "one mic" thing that makes their music come across as being somewhat more traditional than it actually is.

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## kmando

As a person who goes to Moutain View quite a bit, I finnd the atmosphere there to be great. While bluegrass is the main genre there, you will hear other types of music played throughout the town square and at the Folk Center. I think that all should take note of the apparent attitude of CS when writing about the incident. Using terms like "Bluegrass Nazi" would seem to me to point to a childish ATTITUDE and defensiveness. I tend to believe the promotor's side of the story now that I have read it. No name calling there. Just a statement of what happened. CS's blog paragraph is like the child who cannot admit he is wrong so he resorts to name-calling. Just my 2 cents here.

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## mrmando

> The "falling out of traditional-bluegrass" argument coming from the festival side is really rather weak. Certainly this band did not show up to this festival with fresh material aimed at derailing those expecting 20 covers of gospel and I would venture to say that 90+% of their music had been heard in public prior to this festival. Promoters and bookers are responsible for the bands they book, not the other way around. They are not a cover band and live samples of their music is readily accessable online for those who do their homework. Furthermore they are not a gospel band, although they play some gospel numbers, so those expecting a traditional gospel show were either mis-lead by the festival or came unknowing and left unhappy.


Nowhere in the festival side of the matter is the argument made that the band didn't conform to someone's idea of trad bluegrass, or that it didn't play enough gospel songs. Such arguments are attributed by the band to the promoter, but since the band also called him a bunch of names, you have to wonder whether they're really interested in fairly representing his side of the story. All the promoter has actually said on record is that the band was too loud and their tech refused to turn down the volume when asked to do so.

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## dcoxmandolin

Well I can't see anything posted on the C Sky website I went to the my space one and Ricky Skaggs music one. ##As for a real reason to kick a band off the stage I suggest #this secernio. #Tons of families spread out over the grass and lots of sunshine and then the screeching sound of Laura Love bluegrass band singing "GET YOUR FREAK ON" Now you see parents grab up their kids and head back away from the speakers as Laura Love continues to sing about piercing your private parts. #Well I don't think she would be welcome at Mt view, but this is what did happen at Rocky Grass this year. #Some called her the Janis Joplin of bluegrass, does bluegrass really need a Janis Joplin with lyrics like that?? #I know Lyons, Colorado and Planet Bluegrass is a far cry and pretty left of Mountain View. #But if anyone needs a Bluegrass Nazi planet bluegrass does, do you think Andy would relocate??

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## mrmando

The CS blog entry was quoted earlier in this thread, but it's here if you really want what they said straight from the horse's ... uh ... mouth.

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## words2singwith

I read all the comments people made on the sky website actually I am really sadden by them. #Everyone just assumes Mountain View is a back woods sort of dueling banjo type of town. #It's not. #There is more talent in that little Arkansas town then in a lot of bands out there right now. #Mt View is one of those places you have to take the Meca trek to, if you really want to hear blugrass. Don't let this one incident keep you from going there. For those who have never made it there the town sits in the Arkansas Ozarks, #it is not easy to get to coming from Memphis, or Eureka Springs. #But once there you are welcomed by geniue folk. #There is a large courthouse with a well worn grassy square around it. #On each corner on about any night you will find friendly pickers. #Then walk down a side street and as you pass several old homes turned into B & B and B for bluegrass. Pickers run most of these establisments. #Pickin on the porch, pickin on the square, pickin at the ice cream parlour, the barber, ever where you go. #Can we just seperate the man "Andy" #from the town in this situation.

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## Cedartop

I'm not sure if Andy went overboard or not by sending them packing. I can tell you that I have only walked out early on two "bluegrass" shows. One was a group whose name I can't remember but they were recent winners of the best new award at Telluride. The other was Cadillac Sky.

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## words2singwith

Wait until you hear Laura Love screeching as dcoxmandolin man says. I am sure you would walk out on her too.

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## Gutbucket

Laura Love is the new "Janis Joplin"? What a terrible thing to say about a person.

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## coletrickle

> Originally Posted by  (coletrickle @ Nov. 13 2007, 18:18)
> 
> The "falling out of traditional-bluegrass" argument coming from the festival side is really rather weak. Certainly this band did not show up to this festival with fresh material aimed at derailing those expecting 20 covers of gospel and I would venture to say that 90+% of their music had been heard in public prior to this festival. Promoters and bookers are responsible for the bands they book, not the other way around. They are not a cover band and live samples of their music is readily accessable online for those who do their homework. Furthermore they are not a gospel band, although they play some gospel numbers, so those expecting a traditional gospel show were either mis-lead by the festival or came unknowing and left unhappy.
> 
> 
> Nowhere in the festival side of the matter is the argument made that the band didn't conform to someone's idea of trad bluegrass, or that it didn't play enough gospel songs. Such arguments are attributed by the band to the promoter, but since the band also called him a bunch of names, you have to wonder whether they're really interested in fairly representing his side of the story. All the promoter has actually said on record is that the band was too loud and their tech refused to turn down the volume when asked to do so.


"According to festival director Andy Rutledge, the band didn't live up to the terms of its contract by playing amplified instruments and by straying from traditional bluegrass material"

While that is not a quote from the promoter, seems like this article has become "the" side of the argument. 

Did I read something criticising people bringing "other" instruments to bluegrass jam sessions? Come on, with so much clout made for beginners and music lovers to come to jams and be accepted on this site, I would expect bluegrass, of all music, and mando pickers, of all instruments, to be open to out of the box instruments at their jams. Which is worse, creating community with a sax player or having a jam session with three people because it has become so inclusive no one else can get in?

Enough hi-jacking on my part. I apologize.

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## mrmando

> "According to festival director Andy Rutledge, the band didn't live up to the terms of its contract by playing amplified instruments and by straying from traditional bluegrass material"


Thanks for the clarification. Makes me curious about that contract, then. Wonder whether and how explicitly it specified trad material and unplugged instruments, or what exactly they played that wasn't trad enough. 

It sounds to me as though any concerns about the set list might have been worked out if the band had been willing to turn the volume down ... but I wasn't there. 

As for non-trad instruments in bluegrass jams, I'd say it's more about the player than the instrument. I've jammed with some accordion, harmonica, and percussion players who were great musicians and able to play something on their instruments that fit within a bluegrass setting. I've also jammed with fiddlers, banjo pickers, guitarists and singers who hadn't the slightest clue what they were doing and ruined the song by soloing all the way through it, or playing the wrong chords, or not knowing the words, or insisting on doing John Denver covers.

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## coletrickle

mrmando:

Agreed. I really wonder what happened here. Obviously a bit of stubborness on both sides. Perhaps CS felt that the festival was trying to make them be something they don't want to be, and perhaps the festival felt that CS was going out of their way to be difficult and get want they want. I'd say a bit of both. I've worked with plenty of bands as a writer and have helped with festivals and even done some contributions to booking bands and most bands are just great to work with. I just wonder what the festival thought they were getting. Even for our smaller festival, that is anything but a bluegrass-only festival, we spend the whole year researching bands and trying to get a flavor for what they are going to bring.

I'm just having a hard time beliving that CS went out of their way to offend this crowd. That's the sort of thing that over-indulgent rock stars are notorious for, not young bluegrass bands looking to make new fans. 

I hear people on the volume issue, but at some point amplification is amplification. In any light, the contract should have stated that the festival reserves the right to control the sound and that each band may bring their own sound person, but that the festival reserves the right to overule any sound man's decision. Perhaps it was there in the ink and we are just arguing about a breech of contract. 

One way or another it is a shame that this happens at bluegrass events. We need all the supporters we can get and shedding a negative light on any festival is a step in the wrong direction, regardless of who is at fault. Too bad CS had to throw it out there like that did. Definetley a crass and uncouth way to express their disdain.

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## Philip Halcomb

> I won't even mention that they dress like a bunch of dirt bags...


Wow, that's real positive. That's the kind of thing you think to yourself. Anyway, I'll stay away from you, I'd hate to hear what you think about how I dress. Good grief...

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## words2singwith

hmmm I think I would even take 3 banjos over a sax at a jam. did I really say that??

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## words2singwith

ok ok I take it back I take it back

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## mrmando

If CS really did break their contract, then they were lucky to get paid. Bands (or their managers, anyway) should read contracts carefully. On the other hand, if the contract specifies a certain type of music, the promoter shouldn't offer that contract to any band without knowing what the band sounds like. (Sorry, thought I saw the dead horse twitch a little.) 

I would really be interested in hearing bluegrass played competently on a saxophone, but I am not holding my breath.

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## woodwizard

I haven't changed my mind. Andy was wrong. I agree with someone who said let's just seperate Andy from Mt. View because it's a great little town.
The town just needs to get rid of him looks like to me. He went overboard on this. No doubt in my mind. That's just the way I see it. Unbeleaveable IMHO

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## mandolirius

&lt;I haven't changed my mind. Andy was wrong.&gt;

I think it's pretty hard for anyone who wasn't there and involved in the situation to say who was, or wasn't wrong. If paying customers were complaining about the volume, perhaps leaving or demanding a refund, I think you'd agree the promoter has to do something. If it was as simple as him asking for a lower volume level and being refused (assuming that issue was not covered in the contract), I'd have a hard time saying the promoter was wrong. Since the band got paid, I'm going to assume the promoter had no contractual leverage over the band on the matter of volume level, and was left with only the bad options of letting them continue to antagonize his fan base for four more sets or cut his losses and dismiss them. In that case, I could actually sympathize. It's a rotten spot to be in. So for now, the whole thing goes into my "not enough information" file.

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## allenhopkins

Years ago our little folk festival had a problem  a group (four women, oddly enough) who dropped "f-bombs" on stage, threw condoms into the audience (!), and totally grossed out the festival chair. He wanted to send them packing, albeit after paying them what we'd contracted. Intercession by another of the performers, and a little heart-to-heart behind the main stage, smoothed things over and the event went on as advertised.

I would never stick up for the Mountain View promoter; I think what he did was unconscionable, and (without ever hearing Cadillac Sky) would maintain that a band that shows up and plays its music as contracted should never get treated as they were. I only offer the minor mitigating opinion, that many of the smaller community festivals are put on by volunteers who do it out of love for the music, get no compensation, and often are less versed in the ways of the music "biz" than the musicians they hire. That's not an excuse for making bad and unprofessional decisions, but it may lead to some understanding of why things go so wrong now and then.

I used to read articles written by musicians complaining about how they were treated on the folk club/coffeehouse/small festival circuit, and, while I sympathized as a part-time musician who'd experienced some unprofessional treatment, I also realized that at a lot of these venues, the performer is *the only one* getting paid (well, possibly the sound person). As I said, not an excuse for behaving like a jerk, but perhaps a perspective on why it happens sometimes.

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## Peter Hackman

Quite generally, when you hire a group you hire a name, a trademark. There's really no accounting for changes in personnel or musical style. Band members come and go, living music is changing music.

It's hard to believe that a highly original group was contracted to do "traditional material" or even "traditional music", according to some specified genre, as tradition survives by change.

So what was the real issue?

As for volume, there's a separate thread on that important topic. Suffice it to say that the level of one group determines the way you hear - or don't - the next group, so there has be some kind of consensus or coordination here. Don't ask me how.

Incidentally, judging from the sound clips on myspace, Cadillac Sky is a very traditional-sounding band. According to SOME tradition.

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## Jonathan Peck

> Originally Posted by  (Jonathan Peck @ Nov. 13 2007, 17:58)
> 
> I won't even mention that they dress like a bunch of dirt bags...
> 
> 
> Wow, that's real positive. That's the kind of thing you think to yourself. Anyway, I'll stay away from you, I'd hate to hear what you think about how I dress. Good grief...


In all seriousness, when I'm paying to see a ticketed show, I would like to see a band who looks more like a group of professionals than a garage grunge band. If that's the image that they are after, well then ok, but if you want to be non traditional then you open yourself up for critisism. If you think that people want to pay to suffer through loud music, that's ok also. If you want to refuse to turn it down after being asked by the person paying you, that's not ok.

I seriously hope that the band appologizes and moves on. It's bound to get around that the band is loud and difficult to work with. This could hurt them in the long run.

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## Jonathan James

If you read the story on this on Bluegrass Review that Ted posted (http://www.personalbee.com/371/22916213), you'll see a comment at the bottom from one of the band members, Bryan. There he states that they turned down the volume each time the promoter requested they do so...

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## laddy jota

You mean that the guy who hires you can fire you if he doesn't like your work? That's not fair.

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## lgc

I think that them posting the term "bluegrass nazi" is horrible. It is too serious a reference to use to equate the promoter to a group who committed genocide. I think it shows a real lack of maturity and a high level of ignorance on thier part. If thier business presentation was anything like their letter then I think the promoter has a much higher level of implied credibility. To me it sounds like they haveNO understanding of history let alone tradition. Bluegrass nazi indeed.

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## Klaus Wutscher

> I think that them posting the term "bluegrass nazi" is horrible. #


My thoughts exactly.

Regarding the business end of it, I assume that the band got paid? If yes, there is not much to complain about. Live music is (among other things) a service bands offer in exchange for money. If they got paid and their service is not wanted, so be it.Grin and bear it. Finding out what the problem is may be a good move and may or may not provide an opportunity to rethink the musical approach. But dragging the matter on the internet is not a smart move, imo. They will not be invited back anyway, so why make a fuss about it? I never heard of the band before, and from now on, I will remember them as "that band that got fired at some festival". Nice introduction.

Of course, if they did not get paid, that´s another issue...

Yet another thing: any decent festival has a sound guy. In that case, volume level is not an issue that any band is resposible for. If nobody is running the sound and the bands are mixing themselves , what kind of festival is this anyway?

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## woodwizard

A lot of people are trying to make a point about the loud volume and CS not turning it down but as was mentioned by one of the band members in a statement the volume was turned down everytime they were asked ...to the point of only being able to hear the monitors. At this point who knows what really happened unless you were actually there. If it went down the way CS said I think that what they said about Andy afterwards was pretty low key. The way I read the Nazi discription was kinda halfway a joke to get the point across that they were grossly mistreated. You have to put yourself in their shoes. I'm sure they love Bluegrass and feel they are playing and trying to do their part to keep Bluegrass alive. So when someone tells you that you don't play Bluegrass and that you're fired ...there was most likely some severe hurting going on to the band. I don't think the nazi statement was very cool to say but it got the point across to me. I hope things work out for both sides and it all smooths out. A lot of people are going to make a judgement and have an opinion from reading all the info available (most of us here are all pretty opinionated), but who knows what really happened. (unless you were there) Right

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## Jonathan Peck

> A lot of people are going to make a judgement and have an opinion from reading all the info available (most of us here are all pretty opinionated), but who knows what really happened. (unless you were there) Right


Actually, it looks like the band is trying to get back at the promoter via the virtual lynch mob. Looks like this plan has backfired, to me anyway. Hurt, no. P.O'd and looking for revenge is more like it. Looks like they've made one dumb decision after another.

In the interest of fairness, how many bands has the promoter fired? Is this the only one or is there a history here? It's very odd that the band is painting this promoter as some type of over the top comic book villian

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## MandoBen

> ... I assume that the band got paid? If yes, there is not much to complain about.


Exactly. There is nothing to complain about.

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## Tim

One other perspective - On the band's myspace page, there was a message from a fan saying she was looking forward to seeing them at that festival. If she showed up just to see them and missed their first (and only set) is she entitled to a refund?

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## lgc

"The way I read the Nazi discription was kinda halfway a joke to get the point across"

Again, if a group has so little historical understanding to find that funny or appropriate then I can't imagine they have any understanding of tradition or respect either.

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## dan@kins

If a promoter hired my group, then fired us following our first set (for whatever reason), I'd certainly want to get that info on the internet and warn other bands.

To me it sounds like heavy mis-communication.

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## lovethemf5s

As I said in an earlier post, I saw Cadillac Sky at the 2007 RiverCity Bluegrass Festival in Portland, Oregon. I think it's interesting to note that they were not booked to appear at the 2008 festival. This year's festival lineup is fantastic and I'm only too happy to return without being blasted out of the hall by the loudness of this group.

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## mandocrucian

> Nazi discription


The politically correct term would be _Bluegrassofascist_.

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## words2singwith

The Mt view festival has been there a long time, I think it would be an honor to be invited to play there. #The promoter said they did pay the band in full. I am discouraged by the negativity coming off the band web site. Mainly from fans. Why not just say hey there was some miscommunication and we were asked at this time not to finish our sets. #If you came to see us and only us and would like a free ticket to our next gig or cd let us know. #But all the junk about the promoters taste in muisic and trying to censor, in a Nazi type of way is a bit over the top.

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## words2singwith

" The politically correct term would be Bluegrassofascist."

Would you please add this to Wikepedia for future reference.:D

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## Spruce

This has got to be the best career move that a band could ever wish for.....

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## mandopete

Yeah, it worked so well for people like Britney Spears!

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## SternART

I'm with Spruce......I'll make a point to check them out this year at Wgrass!

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## Peter Hackman

I think I'll buy their CD ...

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## mrmando

> I'm with Spruce......I'll make a point to check them out this year at Wgrass!


See you there, Art. I'll bring the earplugs.

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## lgc

I just lked at thier myspace and it was the first time I"ve heard them Sounds a lot lke pop country to me. Definetly not trad. I think it is discgraceful that they would post that blog and then let ther fans spew hate and childish insults. I think that that this has been good advertising for MT View cause if they aren't letting bands like them play then I'll be a lot more likly to attend.

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## coletrickle

Agree or disagree with the band's response following this incident, personally I think it was out of line and in poor taste, the point still remains that they were booked for the show as a traditional bluegrass band on gospel night. They are not responsible for not sounding traditional enough, and do not have to live up to some sort of traditional bluegrass expectations. They are who they are and the festival is ultimetly responsible for bringing them in and booking them for multiple shows. No band should have to sacrifice "their sound" or their music to align with the ideals of a festival once they are on the bill, regardless of who said what and what really happened.

Obviously the volume situation was and is a big issue with many people, but the truth behind what really happened is only known to the band and those who were on the other side (promoter, etc.). And, just like they are not responsible for being something they are not musically, they are also not responsible for being too loud.

Conversely, they (CS) are responsible for adhearing the policies of the festival and the dictation of festival authorities, but you can't fault this band for cranking it up, even if you can't stand it. You can fault them for not following the rules of the festival, if that is what really transpired.

One way or another I'd say they did some damage to their image and credibility as a concert band (which is obvious by the reaction on this site), and just as much as the festival is responsible for bringing them in, they (CS) are responsible for their reaction to this situation, albeit positive or negative. A better action would have been to walk away to the next show and be the bigger people, but unfortunetly many people like to react as a matter of emotion and not always as a matter of rational thinking.

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## pigpen

New poster, but I just gotta talk about one of my favorite places. #I apologize for not mentioning CS directly, but I only know Mt. View, not the band. # # #
 # # During the sole summer I lived in Mt View, I found that the courthouse lawn pickers very politely and kindly discouraged anything music that they viewed as "too new" which included many of the bluegrass songs that I (poorly) played. #One night I tried a Gillian Welch tune out, and was told afterwards "That's a fine song, but I only like to play the ones I've heard before." #It's a fantastic town and has a very welcoming and thriving acoustic music community. #As a then-young music rookie, it was a great, rookie-friendly place to do alotta musical learning. #However, I found it to definitely favor music made before the Beatles were on Ed Sullivan. #
 # # #What does that have to do with CS? #I'm not sure, but I think that the prevailing spirit of the town and many of the festival-goers is that good music is adored and encouraged and supported, but only "the ones I've heard before."

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## mandolirius

&lt;And, just like they are not responsible for being something they are not musically, they are also not responsible for being too loud.&gt;

No problem with the first part but the second? They used their own sound person, which was probably stipulated in the contract. So how could they *not* be responsible for being too loud, if indeed they were. 

At any rate, I think the being too loud issue is neither here nor there. I doubt there was an established decibel measure of how loud was too loud, so they probably cranked it to normal (for them) level and that's apparently when the problem began. It was, according to the promoter's story, their refusal to turn it down when asked. 

I can't see any reason not to go along with such a request, especially if the promoter has a lot of unhappy patrons who are complaining. You seem to think doing nothing was an option but that is surely not the case. The promoter definitely had to do something. Think of how easy it would have been for the sound guy just to turn it down.

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## K3NTUCKI8oy

For people who drive away fans from traditional or (REAL) Bluegrass music
I believe this is the treatment they deserve. This is by no means
an offense to anyone who likes the music they make or Ricky Skaggs
makes for them and his pocket book.

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## Larry S Sherman

> Tons of families spread out over the grass and lots of sunshine and then the screeching sound of Laura Love bluegrass band singing "GET YOUR FREAK ON" Now you see parents grab up their kids and head back away from the speakers as Laura Love continues to sing about piercing your private parts. Well I don't think she would be welcome at Mt view, but this is what did happen at Rocky Grass this year. Some called her the Janis Joplin of bluegrass, does bluegrass really need a Janis Joplin with lyrics like that?? I know Lyons, Colorado and Planet Bluegrass is a far cry and pretty left of Mountain View. But if anyone needs a Bluegrass Nazi planet bluegrass does, do you think Andy would relocate??


Laura Love is a tremendously talented musician and singer, I've seen her many times, have all of her CDs, etc. I can't even begin to imagine how she could be called _"Screeching."_ 

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy her set, but I can't help but think you're exaggerating a bit here. I see she's opening for Del McCoury soon. I would imagine that others aren't as shocked as you describe.

With respect, Larry

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## Stephen Perry

I notice a few things:

1. We don't have the contract.
2. We don't have any power to resolve anything.

But it's an interesting question. Generally, would the typical contract allow a promoter to pay off a band and prevent them from playing the contracted number of sets? I would think so. A kill fee is pretty common in print. Does anyone here know? Other than lack of exposure, what damage would the band absorb?

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## GVD

Good points Stephen. Without having a copy of the contract and without being there to judge the crowd's reaction to the band we're just engaging in speculation. I promote a bluegrass festival myself and feel both sides failed their audience by not reaching some sort of compromise.

The show I promote is attended primarily by bluegrass purists so I make darn sure I research the acts very carefully before offering a contract. Besides just listening to CD's if I haven't seen an act I'll get opinions from people who have seen them. I like traditional and progressive myself but just because I like an act doesn't mean my crowd will so I book according to what I think they will enjoy.

Some band's sign our standard conract while others have their own contacts. If they have their own contract I scrutinze it very carefully and redline any terms that I don't agree with. I certainly wouldn't give any band control over the PA. You can bring your own sound guy with you if you want but the man I pay to provide the sound is going to be the one at the controls. He is a consumate professional who knows how to make acoustic bands sound good and is very familiar with our venue. 

I saw CS at another festival earlier this year that was attended primarily by an older crowd. The sound system really wasn't set up very good to start with and when CS started playing the sound was pretty loud but what made it worse was the intermittent feedback blast. About half the crowd got up and left. Now I must admit that I don't mind the sound turned up since I misspent a large part of my youth attending rock and roll shows that were ungodly loud. It wasn't unusual to not be able to hear for a few days after seeing The Who. Then as an adult I raced circle track for several years and have been on the starting line at NHRA events standing a few feet away from a 8,000 HP fuel car so if the sound annoyed me it probably really bothered everyone else. When I talked to CS after the show and mentioned the sound problems they just kind of laughed about it and acted like it was no big deal. That kind of attitude doesn't exactly endear you to BG crowds or promoters.

GVD

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## Larry Simonson

Thus be it resolved:

Promoters need to do their homework a little better
Contracts need to be more specific
Performers need to sniff out their gigs a little deeper

Even if the goal is a huge publicity squabble with two winners.

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## homeslice

The last time I saw Del McCoury....it was LOUD. I dont know how you could really argue with Del being traditional. As for my observations on this situation, I think both sides could be a little more professional and a lot more tolerant/understanding. Hopefully nobody banks too many regrets.

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## Don Grieser

From my one encounter with CS, I don't have a very high regard for their development as fully actualized human beings. That's as nice as I can put it.

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## mythicfish

You can't buy publicity this good.

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## metalmandolin

If they had drums, they would sound like Rascal Flatts! Good pickers and singers, though. I can see how the kids would like it, but the definition of Bluegrass is growing more vague with the passage of time. Musical relativism is setting in.Now Porter Wagoner, he knew how to dress for a show!! Do they still call it a "show"?

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## Klaus Wutscher

> You can't buy publicity this good.


Not sure, really. Scandals may get the word out about a band short term, but I notice that in BG, bands that have staying powers are not known for their scandals, but rather an absence thereof. Sucessful BG bands are known to be professional, reliable, easy to work with, entertaining and going over well with BG audiences. There are exceptions, but those act have to have something unique to make all the hassle worthwile (God bless Jimmy Martin). Even then, their behavour comes at a price (in Jimmys case, becoming an Opry member).

If you think in a pop context, the scandal thing will probably work. But you should better be sure that your audience is tuned into pop marketing concepts as much as you are because otherwise...

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## Scott Tichenor

Some of the comments being made are pushing the boundaries of this board's posting guidelines. Some of the comments are simply inappropriate and uncalled for. There's no need for us to lower ourselves by resorting to name calling either party or the city where this occurred. Calling someone a "dirt bag" is only one example that is out of bounds. I won't tolerate this further. 

Expect to possibly see one or more of the parties directly involved from either side here in the near future to post a comment. I'd expect we'd treat them with respect and realize there's two sides to every story, and that both sides are entitled to their opinion about what happened.

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## Peter Hackman

> Thus be it resolved:
> 
> Promoters need to do their homework a little better
> Contracts need to be more specific
> Performers need to sniff out their gigs a little deeper
> 
> Even if the goal is a huge publicity squabble with two winners.


According to Bryan's post to BGR, they used CS's own contract. Of course, that contract does not say anything about "traditional material", etc. "Tradition" by its very nature can't be defined, specified, predicted or prescribed, so such a clause would be absolutely meaningless from a legal point of view. And this IS a legal issue, with some ethic implications, not the matter of "taste" or "opinion" that some posters want it to be, because it's so much easier. A contract is a contract, a gig is a gig.

 Of course, BG fans often give the word "traditional" a very restrictive meaning as not too much of this or that, e.g., instrumental virtuosity, harmonic or rhythmic complexity.

Ironically, in very real and objective sense, CS are a much more traditional act than, say, the Country Gentlemen, Emerson-Waldron, the Seldom Scene, and
the Osborne Brothers, to name but a few of the most frequent acts at festivals in the early festival days of the 60's and 70's. They didn't please everybody and nobody expected to like everything at a festival.

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## Mandobar

boy, look at all the PR they are getting over this. i for one checked out their myspace site (and i loathe myspace) and am looking around for their album. rap stars pay their PR people $$$$ for this kind of publicity.

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## cadillacsky

Alright, I can't help myself- so here it is....this is Bryan of Cadillac Sky. First of all, I love the passion that you guys (and gals) have written with on this subject. Secondly, I think debate and discussion is a good thing for bluegrass. But I must clear up a few things here and now:

1. There is a notion out there that our sound man refused to turn down the volume of the band when asked to by Mr. Rutledge. Our sound man related to me immediately after the show that he, at Andy's request, turned it down three times- every time he ask him to. And that, by the third time, we were far quieter than the band before us- a local family group on mics.... And does anybody really believe Danny, our sound man, crossed his arms, stuck out his tongue, and shook his head at Mr. Rutledge's request to turn it down?!

2. The contract in question: Andy says that Cadillac Sky didn't "live up to the terms of its contract by playing amplified instruments and by straying from traditional bluegrass material." The contract in question is our contract. Our contract. And one thing I know- in that contract, approved by the band and our booking agent, there is no mention of performing "traditional bluegrass material" nor is there a mention of doing a Thursday night gospel show- which we did do at the festival's request- and there is no mention in the promoter's comments about our use of DI boxes. The only thing mentioned is that he would prefer us to not sing the songs on our cd that reference the "wilder side of life"?- which we did not do in our "Cryin Holy", "Wayfaring Stranger", fiddle-banjo duet, laced set. And honestly, I don't know what songs he's referencing on our cd- maybe "Wish I Could Say I was Drinking"- which is a song about the fact that you were without a good excuse for something stupid you did because you weren't drinking. 

3. And, finally, we were not asked to leave when speaking to Andy because of our volume- I made it perfectly clear when the post-show discussion was underway that we were willing to turn down even further if that would satisfy the situation. But that was not what Andy's angst was about. We were asked to leave because he said we weren't "playing bluegrass". And that is where it hit the fan with me. We are passionate about what we do, passionate about the roots of our music, and that passion led to some passionate blogging and, one term in particular (Bluegrass Nazi?), that I would like to have back if I could; and for that I apologize. But I took offense with Andy's statement because, bluegrass, is the key ingredient in what we do and that's something we take pride in. Yes, we are trying to paint our masterpiece with every recording and every live show and create a sound that is completely Cadillac Sky, but bluegrass and traditional string band music are always the first color on the canvas. 

Oh, and one last thing- we love you all. Those that like us and those that don't. (Well, we love those that like us a little more). Love us or hate us(nobody hates us...right??)- we just want you to feel something. There is too much apathy at times in bluegrass audiences...in my humble opinion. We play with our heart on our sleeve and emotion is a big part of what we do- and we want to effect each audience emotionally. Right or wrong that will never change. Bluegrass, simply put, is an emotional music. Obviously. 
              Respectfully yours, Cap'n Dook- aka Bryan- the dirt-bag dressing, infamous writer of The Exhile of Cadillac Sky: The Mtn. View Mishap (myspace.com/cadillacsky)

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## Jimmy Sample

Mr. Simpson, 

Thank you for that thoughtfull, well written response. You've made your point! I understand your side of the story now!

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## sully542

Sounds like maybe the person took a personal dislike [or hurt or offense] for the band or person in the band and tried to find some professional justification to act upon his personal issues. When you do that you end up being neither personable nor professional. Some people don't learn with age.

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## Bill Van Liere

Very good Bryan

So Rock On budd...(no I guess that won't work) So Grass On, (oh that might not work either). Well, just play music and have a good time. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

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## GVD

Bryan,

I agree with the Mrhotsprings. Thank you for giving us your side.

BTW for better or worse the Seinfield show made using the term _Nazi_ to describe someone acting in a rigid/capricious manner part of the American lexicon. If you look around this site you can actually see a thread titled *"No Soup For You"* which is from the Seinfield episode The Soup Nazi. I certainly didn't take any offense from your use of that term.

GVD

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## ira

not being a bg type i generally don't chime in on these discussions. however, this one goes to the heart of the issue of musical snobbery... this crosses genre and is not just a bg issue. it is always interesting to me when this is brought up as all musical genres, including relatively new ones like bluegrass, were created and expanded by people who were progressive and took off from another genre. monroe, flatt and scruggs, et al...took country to a new place by adding in some new elements, playing with instrumentation and speeding it up a whole bunch,as well as, focusing a lot on musical precision and exploration...well, guess what folks thats all that the sam bush types were doing 25ish years ago and what many of the prog type bands are doing now...

what is considered traditional classical music as stated by another poster on the thread was bordering on heretical in its day... what is "classic" rock? should we have stopped at bill haley and the comets? 
what about modern day gospel, modern folk (sorry for those who refer to the 60s stuff as "the folk scare"- lots of great music came out of it that helped people discover the more traditional stuff through that "scare")
if not for the "progressive types" you wouldn't even have bluegrass today....
again, this isn't just a bluegrass isssue, but it shocks me nonetheless when ever i see it rear its ugly head...

get over yourselves folks....

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## Jonathan Peck

Hey Bryan,

First let me start by appologizing publicly for the dirt bag comment. While I was using it in a context speaking to 'tradition', the term itself was unecessary.

It's good to hear your side of the story first hand, although I would still like to hear the other side of the story as well. It takes two parties unable to reach a happy medium to have such a drastic outcome and I would imagine that the promoter has a different view of what transpired. 

I first heard your band on Bluegrass Junction doing an 'in the studio' segment. I enjoyed your music and bought your CD the next day. You are all talented musicians and the music is tight. Regardless of what transpires here, I like the music and will continue to listen to it and look for future releases.

I will admit howerever, that what has been said here has influenced me in a negative way in regards to seeing a live CS show. The general opinion of the few that have commented has been that the shows are too loud and the acoustics from the audiences perspective are somewhat less than optimal. Whithout experiencing it myself first hand, and in the absence of any contrary opinions, I'd have to say that I'm left with the impression that it is entirely possible that I would think it too loud as well.

As to the issues of dress and professionalism, I would imagine that it's a personal choice. I have a nine year old who performs regularly and my wife and I stress these points to her in everything that she participates in so it is something for me that has importance. 

Anyway, good luck to you you and your band. When your in NYC again, maybe we can laugh about the whole thing

-jonathan

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## lgc

I think you are misinterpreting. There are people who genuinly like those forms called traditional. Most people who prefer early BG as opposed to progressive BG is bcause they think it sounds better. THere is also a push by those who like progressive music to have all festivals and forums be welcoming to anything anyone wants to calls BG. It seems that many don't want there to be any place where what is WITHOUT A QUESTION BG can be heard without having to listen to people play BG influenced music that is cross genreal. Thats fine but I'm still going to push to have venues where the early stuff is still the focus cause that is what I like. There are less and less. It isn't snobbery it is a personal taste and having an informed opinion about what one feels has value and what doesn't. We all make those choices. Some stuff we like and some stuff we don't. Barely anyone argues that all music is equal in worth or communicative ability. That's why heavy metal bands don't open for the opera. They both have their place.

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## ira

lgc,i respectfully disagree and don'think its a misinterpretation, but appreciate hearing your opinion.

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## allenhopkins

Also, even if lgc is right that not all "bluegrass" is _real_ bluegrass (whatever that is), the recourse for the promoter is to say, "Well, made a mistake, won't book 'em again," and then to *honor the terms of his contract with the band.*

And, IMHO, that includes having them play the concerts for which they were hired, with whatever sound level adjustments the promoter deems necessary.

Thank you, Bryan, for coming on this board -- where you certainly had your detractors -- and clearly stating the band's view of the incident. There's no substitute for honest airing of viewpoints, and rational discussion thereof.

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## Tom Smart

Bryan,

I caught your act last summer at the Snowbird, Utah festival. Along with April Verch's set, I thought it was the highlight of the entire weekend. Very creative music, played with great passion and stellar technique.

That said, I had my fingers in my ears throughout the entire set. It was painfully loud. No matter who the performer is, I would like to enjoy the music without risk of damage to my hearing. I would also imagine that you, as an entertainer, would like the audience to hear you at your best. That simply can't happen when the volume levels are overdriving everyone's eardrums. This was just one performance, and may have been an anomaly. But if your usual volume level is anywhere near what I heard at Snowbird, my opinion is that you'd be doing yourself and your fans a favor by turning it way down.

PS, I truly feel sorry for the "that ain't bluegrass" and the "I only like what I've heard before" crowd. How sad it must be to go through life placing such strict limits on what you're willing to experience. As someone who worships the Bluegrass Boys and the Stanley Brothers, I find a group like Cadillac Sky to be an invigorating and exciting breath of fresh air (when my ears aren't bleeding).

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## sgarrity

_&lt;Comment removed. Violates board posting guidelines.&gt;_

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## Paul Kotapish

> Yet another thing: any decent festival has a sound guy. In that case, volume level is not an issue that any band is resposible for. If nobody is running the sound and the bands are mixing themselves , what kind of festival is this anyway?


Klaus,

Just for clarification, many (edit of original post which said "most") serious touring bands travel with their own sound engineer. In most cases this results in a much better mix than what can be expected with the front-of-house engineer provided at festivals and concert venues. The band's sound person will have a better sense of what the band is aiming for in their mix and will know the cues if they require special mixing during the course of the show.

It usually the smaller, local acts that depend solely on the festival sound guy.

There are, of course, many instances when the festival crew does a better job on the fly than the band's own tech.

As to the perception of volume at the concert in question, this is all a matter of conjecture, since there wasn't an acoustical engineer on site measuring decibels and recording the data. And absolute volume is only part of the equation. EQ, effects, and balance all contribute to one's perception of how loud something is. A harsh, tinny sound with high-register feedback becomes annoying at a lot lower decibel threshold than a rich, clean, well-balanced mix.

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## woodwizard

Thanks Bryan,
I'm kind of ashamed of the Mt. View folks. Please don't hold it against the state of Arkansas and come back to play in the state some time. Fayettville Ark would be a perfect area for you guys. Being from Ark I sure would love to have a chance to see you guys. Don't give up on us. Thanks

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## Kevin Briggs

I just viewed this thread for the first time.

I know one thing. I'm going to buy that CD from those crazy cats the Cadillac Sky! Anyone who gets kicked out of a festival because their music is too heavy-duty is okay in my book.

Hey, Bob Dylan didn't do a few big TV shows when he was a youngster because the promoters thought it was too much for the audience. I think most will agree it turned out okay for him.

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## mrmando

I can certainly respect someone's desire to run an all-trad festival, if that's what you want to do and you can make it work economically. I can even see that, to protect the integrity of the festival, it might be necessary to pay a band and send them home early, with your apologies, if you didn't do your homework and you discover that the band's material or style doesn't fit with your concept.

But I must draw the line at alleging things that aren't true, i.e., that the band broke its contract and wouldn't turn its levels down. Obviously, if we trust what Bryan has said here, then we must have serious doubts about what Andy has said. They can't both be telling the truth.

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## lgc

Sure they can. Modern physics says that I'm a mix of your space time and you are a mix of mine. Thus our realities are directly dependant on our position reletive to an event.

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## Spruce

_"And does anybody really believe Danny, our sound man, crossed his arms, stuck out his tongue, and shook his head at Mr. Rutledge's request to turn it down?!"_

Welllll, there _is_ a reason why the old joke is funny.....
That being:

_Q: #What's the difference betweeen God and a FOH soundman?
A: #God doesn't think he's a FOH soundman....._

Whether it happened in this case or not I do not know (or really care).....

But what I _do_ know from personal experience over the years is that the infamous gulf of communication between many FOH mixers and just about _anyone else within their proximity_ has led to many-a-disagreement, and threads like this one....

Oh, the _stories_....

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## words2singwith

hey Bryan, #

I missed you guys at Rocky Grass(got there to late in the day) and I could not wait to see you at IBMA. #I stayed for most of the set and love some songs. #But during the instrumental with the heavy bass I had to leave, I blamed the sound guys it just was too strong and sorry to say to loud. I was vibrating in my seat. #Now I like a lot of BG fans have a strong old rock and roll history so loud does not bother me but pounding loud does. #I don't know if that was the song that turned off the MT View folks, but #I know a lot of folks were turned off by it at IBMA and left the audiotruim when I did. #We gathered outside the door and discussed it. Just an fyi. #Keep in mind a am a CS fan and do buy and listen to your cd's.

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## Spruce

_"Now I like a lot of BG fans have a strong old rock and roll history so loud does not bother me but pounding loud does."_

Want to get your head bit off??
Just try having that conversation with just about any FOH (usually) guy....

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## words2singwith

larrydata #"Laura Love is a tremendously talented musician and singer, I've seen her many times, have all of her CDs, etc. I can't even begin to imagine how she could be called "Screeching." 

I think she is an excellant musican too. That is why I was soooooo disappointed. I also saw the Rocky Grass performance and yes walked away. #Do you think there is a place at any festival for someone to sing #"get your freak on" #by #piercing your privates?? #I doubt if Del will allow her to sing that song. You have all her CD's#Larry have you heard it?? Maybe this should be a new thread regarding over the top Lyrics for a crowd filled with childern.

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## mandolirius

Since I've participated fairly actively in this thread, and we've now heard about as much pertinant info as we're likely to, I'm going to reach a conclusion and hope I'm close to the truth. I think is was a mistake in the booking. It doesn't sound to me like this band, and this festival, were a very good match. And if that's the case, it's not surprising to me there were problems. 

Maybe there's a need for different categories of bluegrass festivals. I hate the word "traditional" but maybe a "retro-fest" or something. The thing is, bluegrass music is young and as it continues to develop, the term will reach it's limitation of usefulness, as jazz has. You can't just say something is jazz now. You have to define it within the huge range of what exists under the jazz tent, everything from dixieland to sampler bands that feature maybe one musician playing an actual instrument, like three guys with laptops and a tenor sax. 

In the circles I hang out in (granted it's on the loosey-goosey west coast) the younger folks don't make these same distinctions. Old time, folky stuff, Bill Monroe tunes...it doesn't matter to them. So bluegrass had taken two big developmental jumps that I can think of. One was in the early 60's with the folk boom, when bluegrass was potentially going to disappear due in part to the influence of rock and roll, but also because there was such a limited repertoire and not many new songs being written. The Country Gentlemen and others actively fought that by expanding their repertoir and introducing songs form other genres. The second one was the advent of women into the music in non-token roles, leading their own bands, playing leads, writing songs etc. I'm convinced bluegrass would be all but dead by now if it had remained mostly a male-dominated musical form.

To me, all this is good news. I like the traditional stuff probably the most, but I'm not afraid of bands like Cadillac Sky, or the Newgrass Revival in another era. I have no fear of traditional bluegrass disappearing or being snowed under by more modern influences. Like pure bebop, the "true vine" stuff will always be available. The question is how to present this mixed bag. Jazz festivals are different, in that they generally take place over a longer period of time than a weekend and involve different locations. BG festivals are, of course, much different animals and maybe defining the character of a festival and sticking to it is becoming necessary. It wouldn't work where I live, because the bluegrass scene is still too young and the audiences are too small to ge fragmented that way. But this is Canada. We don't have a lot of people. American festivals are maybe now at a crossroads that we haven't arrived at yet. Just a thought. 

Speaking of which, to wrap the the CadSky/MtnVu thing, I play in a klezmer band and are singer has an expression she uses to describe gigs where things were less than perfect - "hey, nobody died and everybody got paid". In other words, it wasn't *that* bad.

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## Gutbucket

Bryan's cool. Just don't drag out a saxaphone or start a drum circle. Well, not in Mountain View anyway.

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## GVD

> Paul Kotapish posted
> 
> Just for clarification, *most* serious touring bands travel with their own sound engineer. In most cases this results in a much better mix than what can be expected with the front-of-house engineer provided at festivals and concert venues. The band's sound person will have a better sense of what the band is aiming for in their mix and will know the cues if they require special mixing during the course of the show.
> 
> It usually the smaller, local acts that depend solely on the festival sound guy.


Paul, 

Could you please name a few of these _serious_ bands? Are you talking Bluegrass bands or some other form of music? I've either been involved in booking most of the biggest name bands in BG or talked to other promoters who have and while there may be a couple who have their own sound man *most* do not. Serious band or not most feel they would rather not have the added expense of their own sound guy.

GVD

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## mandosage

Wow..... I'll bet John Hartford is reliving those years w/ Vassar Sam and Norman right now- I know I am.

" The more things change, the more......"

I love everything about traditional bluegrass, but I have always loved hearing artists move it forward into uncharted territory as well. 

Never heard Cadillac Sky, but I probably will now.

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## Klaus Wutscher

"smaller, local bands" - that would be me.  

I probably did not get my point across properly, nor did I read the whole blog. What I meant was that bands are supposed to PLAY, and not be concerned with things like FOH volume levels. Even if they brought their own soundguy, the promoter could have sent him packing, and not necessarily the whole band. You cannot lay the blame on them. 

Still, I´m not sure that the incident is great marketing - no matter how many clicks on a myspace site, in the end promoters hire you, not fans. If I was a promoter, I would think twice to hire any band based on such a "reputation". But maybe that´s just me.

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## Paul Kotapish

> Paul, 
> 
> Could you please name a few of these _serious_ bands? Are you talking Bluegrass bands or some other form of music? I've either been involved in booking most of the biggest name bands in BG or talked to other promoters who have and while there may be a couple who have their own sound man *most* do not. Serious band or not most feel they would rather not have the added expense of their own sound guy.
> 
> GVD


George,

I should have written "many" rather than "most," and I amended my post above. The inclusion of a sound person in the traveling entourage is certainly not an indicator of quality--or seriousness. 

My observation is based on my past years on festival circuits, my discussions with various soundpersons who are regularly hired by touring bands, and by my experiences at local Bay Area venues. The last several shows I attended at the our local acoustic music venue in Berkeley have been mixed by techs traveling with the bands, for example.

You are undoubtedly correct that this practice is less common among bluegrass bands than it is among out acoustic-music groups in other idioms. 

My point--overstated, I'm sure--was that having one's own sound person is typically viewed by the performers as a step up rather than as a step down.

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## Ted Lehmann

I really like I really liked mandolirius' summation of the Cadillac Sky issue. Whether bluegrass festivals should be sub-divided, however, is another question. The broad spectrum of what is generally called "bluegrass" covers a lot of territory. This weekend we're attending, with eager anticipation, a two day festival in New Hampshire where the four bands are Sam Bush and The Greencards on Friday, and Del McCoury along with Crooked Still on Saturday. That's three of four bands that might be categorized as progressive. For some people that's a pretty strong dose. On the other hand, my wife and I will be going to a series of festivals in Florida which would best be categorized as traditional. We expect to have a great time at them, too. The point is, that there's lots of room for diversity. Musicians as far removed from each other in their sound and approach to the music as Sam and Alan Bibey both pay honor and respect to Bill Monroe. He deserves it! But the music will be at its best if it can incorporate deep respect for the founders, develop bands which honor their contribution by playing their work, and welcome new bands which are informed by the forms of music they grew up with. After all, Monroe synthesized the sounds surrounding his growing up in the thirties and forties, incorporating those sounds into what came to be known as bluegrass. There's been lots of music come down the pike since then, and today's bluegrass musician cannot help but be influenced by those sounds. Even so, what they produce is bluegrass. The best festivals , for me, are ones that lean one direction or the other while offering a range of opporunties to hear interpretations of the music. Any person reading a lineup should be able to know what's what. - Ted

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## Brandywino

Reminds me of a situation that happened to me 17 years ago here in philly with a band I was fronting. See our agent sent tapes and profiles through out the city and due to the nature of our music we were promptly booked as the local headliner for the african american festival. No one asked for our race or lack of. In preparation for taking the stage the mc declared over the mic how shocked they all were to see this next act and that was our intro. The sound man not hired by the band looped echo and feedback through the monitors as their demonstration of ignorance to what music really is. However the show went off well and after putting a gun to the side of the promoter who refused to pay we got our money for the show and sold lots of music. The music business and the business of music can be one of the more ugly experiences that any artist may have to deal with.:blues: Today 17 years later I play mandolin in an original band where the bluegrass format is our canvas and goes over quiet well in an area where traditional music would not sell. Here in philly bluegrass can be defined by the instrumentation not necessarily the music itself example: red wine as arranged by steel pulse played on traditional bluegrass instruments is still considered bluegrass. Jazz Played on bluegrass instruments is not considered Jazz. younger musicians cant help but being exposed and influenced by a wide variety of music available to them today. BTW if bill Manroe ain't there it ain't bluegrass anyways.

CH33R5

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## mandolirius

&lt;But the music will be at its best if it can incorporate deep respect for the founders, develop bands which honor their contribution by playing their work, and welcome new bands which are informed by the forms of music they grew up with.&gt;

Philosophically, it's hard to argue with that. And in general, I think that's exactly what's happening in bluegrass. That said, there does seem to be certain festivals that, for one reason or another, see themeselves as representing or even championing a certain type of bluegrass. In those cases, they probably shouldn't be seeking diversity. I'm thinking that may have happened in this case. Someone possibly convinced the promoter he needed to expand his horizons for whatever reason and got him to hire this group, and it was clearly a mistake. I used to go to some small little festivals in the Pacific Northwest where it was like stepping through a time warp. Nothing you wouldn't have heard forty years ago. And I loved it, cause I love that stuff. But I have friends who would have considered a weekend of torture. They don't mind a bit of Monroe-style bluegrass, but a weekend's worth? Not for them!

These days there are more festivals around than ever. A glut, in fact. So it makes sense that festivals need to think about defining themselves and figuring out what they want to be when they grow up. Some do it by refusing to be pigeon-holed. Some of my favourite festivals in recent years have been what are called "music festivals". No style, no boundries - acoustic, electric, anything goes. One friend who is the A.D. at one of these says the only criteria for getting booked at his event is that you have to be people who are easy to work with and fun to be around.

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## homeslice

Bryan, That was a thoughtful and appreciated response. I agree with your statement about "apathy" in the BG scene (at least in my neck of the woods), and think your apology shows taste. I go buy your cd now.

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## Mental Floss

Traditional.....Non traditional
Loud.....un-miked acoutistic
I do #know this, Cadillac Sky is a seriously talented band.
Tight
Original
Lyrics that are riviting
Vocals that are unique
I saw them at Winfield this year and did not know them from Adam. I even had a short conversation with Brian about mandolins before I saw them play. He was soo down to earth and #real that I just thought I was talking mandos with a mando fan. Later I saw their first set and the first few seconds I #thought, "HMMM is that traditional...?"
By the end of the first song I was hooked.
I caught all of their sets and bought their cd and it my most listened to cd...and get this, I get the traditional better as a player because I am listening to Cadillac Sky and for some reason they make me understand the breaks and how a song is put together.
Anyway I wish I could have gone to see their one set at Mt View Ark...it would have been worth it!

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## Brian Aldridge

I have seen Cadilac Sky at some festivals, and met the guys backstage. They are very friendly, talented, passionate and dedicated musicians. I really liked them. Their music is tight and presented very professionally. I think this incident at Mountain View with Andy is quite a shame, but unfortunatly, not all that surprising. Fortunatly, there are many, in fact most Bluegrass venues that are happy to have such a great band as Cadilac Sky on the bill, and music lovers everywhere entertained by these guys. I am happy that Bluegrass is progressing, and that it is giving something to the younger crowd too. The young people I see at the Festivals are just wonderful people, and I would hate to see "bluegrass" loose them as fans because of intolerant regressives. I say all this even though in my mind, Red Allen rules. I am sorry to say I haven't seen him at a Festival in quite some time though.

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## allenhopkins

> I say all this even though in my mind, Red Allen rules. I am sorry to say I haven't seen him at a Festival in quite some time though.


I believe Red Allen died in 1993 (?).

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## andrew gates

Harley "Red" Allen (1930-1993) was a bluegrass singer and guitarist known for his powerful tenor voice. He grew up in the music-rich hills of eastern Kentucky, and in the early 1950s began performing in and around Dayton, Ohio. He first came to broad public attention in 1956, when he signed on with the Osborne Brothers to fill out one of the most influential vocal trios in the history of country music. Until the Osbornes' 1958 hit "Once More," the typical arrangement called for a "lead" singer to provide the melody with a "tenor" singing a higher part, and a "baritone" below. "Once More," which reached number 13 on the charts, had the lead sung by the band's highest voice, mandolinist Bobby Osborne. Allen sang the "baritone" just below the melody and banjo player Sonny Osborne provided the "tenor" a full octave below its place in a traditional arrangement. The result, as the Osbornes themselves observed, allowed singers to mimic the sliding tonal effects of the pedal-steel guitar. Contemporary singers using this device include Rhonda Vincent.

Allen left the Osbornes soon after recording "Once More," and resettled in the Washington, D.C. area, which had a thriving bluegrass scene including the Country Gentlemen. There, with the innovative mandolin player Frank Wakefield, he formed the Kentuckians. During this period he and Wakefield made a much-admired record for Folkways, entitled simply "Bluegrass," which showed a larger public that he was a true disciple of "the high lonesome sound" associated with Bill Monroe. At his best, Allen drenched his material in emotion, each song propelled by his surging rhythm guitar playing. As he later said, "Bluegrass is sad music. I't always been sad and the people that's never lived it, it'll take them a long time to know what it is."

He later recorded for County records and King Bluegrass, with noted banjo player J.D. Crowe. Among his proteges was mandolinist David Grisman, the inventor of "dawg music," who said that by hiring him for the Kentuckians, Allen gave the younger man "a college education in bluegrass music."

Allen's sons, Ronnie, Greg, Neal, and Harley, performed and recorded (with and without their father) as the Allen Brothers in the 1970s and 1980s. Harley Allen is one of the most respected songwriters and musicians in Nashville 


Article credited to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Allen_(bluegrass)

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## Mandomax

I think Brian was joking

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## lgc

"regressives"

That was a nice sublte snipe. The board needs more sublty like that.

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## kymandolin29

i saw them briefly in owensboro ky at the romp.....imho,not even close to bg...and really loud too...lrb is always too loud too...but anyway i left the show quickly....

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