# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  Musical loners?

## tangleweeds

I didn't want to hijack new member Ellen's intro thread, but it made me wonder how many other musical loners there were out there. Quoting from that other thread,



> For all you younger, newer hermits:  If it's how you truly want to approach your playing, that's cool, but be careful of letting it become a habit if you're just procrastinating joining in with others.


Being new but not so young anymore, I'm afraid I'm a prime example of the introvert/extrovert indicator: Does being around other people energize or exhaust you? Even spending much time with the people I love most tires me out enough that I'm useless for hours after, and interacting a group of people leaves me completely frazzled. I have decent social skills and am blessed with many wonderful friends... it just exhausts me to spend too much time with them.

Instead, I love nothing more than a day that I know I shall get to spend completely alone, because I can do intensive quality time with writing music, writing, or other recreational autodidactery.

Music-specific content: I think this may have something to do with why I've always had such horrible luck over the years with music lessons. Somehow, having another person attempting to interact with me when I'm attempting to interact with my musical instrument short-circuits my relationship with said instrument. I lose all enjoyment in playing that particular instrument, which can last for months or even years, and end up picking up another instrument to get my musical fix. 

So are there other musical loners out there? How has this trait shaped your musical experience?

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## Tobin

In real life (not necessarily on the web), I'm extremely introverted.  I absolutely refuse to go to places like shopping malls, crowded concerts, or other places where I'm around too many people.  It makes me want to flee, screaming.  So I wonder if I actually have a mild degree of agoraphobia along with my introvert personality.  Suffice it to say I ain't much of a people person or a party pleaser.

I have actually found that music forces me to want to be around others to share my passion.  So it's actually a good tool, and a good medium for social interaction.  But yes, it causes a lot of anxiety and wears me out.  I virtually never stay for the full duration of a jam.  And at weekend festivals or acoustic camp type events, I just can't make it to the evening jams.  I have to get away and recharge by being alone, or at home with my wife.

Silly as it may sound, even when I go to the weekly jam with folks I've known for at least a year, and who are very encouraging, I find my hands shaking and my armpits sweating profusely.  Not because I'm necessarily nervous around them.  In fact, I'm quite comfortable around them.  It's just how I react to being in a group.  I don't know if I'll ever really 'cure' myself of it, but hopefully the love of music with others will override most of it.

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## bayAreaDude

If your objective is to make money as a professional musician or to advance as quickly as possible, you're probably missing out on essential opportunities, but otherwise, I don't see anything at all wrong with playing solely for your own enjoyment by yourself.  Playing with strangers holds no appeal whatsoever to me - I played in a band 20 or so years ago and haven't since - just too much hassle.  The only people I ever play with are my kids and that's just because I want to teach them and they're always home.

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rgray

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## bohemianbiker

> ...Instead, I love nothing more than a day that I know I shall get to spend completely alone, because I can do intensive quality time with writing music, writing, or other recreational autodidactery.


This describes me a lot.  I really like a day when I can just be by myself.  But I find that at times I can go too far in this direction, and music helps me socialize.  I can enjoy sitting and talking to complete strangers about music, instruments, musicians etc.  But in other contexts, I find the small talk exhausting.  Or I sometimes feel too tired at the end of the day to go to rehearsal for my orchestra, but then when I get there I thoroughly enjoy the music and friendship.  I find music a great way to relate to people.  bb

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## JeffD

The only downside, as far as I can see, to being a musical loner, is that it will take greater discipline and drive to keep at the instrument. In some cases much much greater. 

Music teachers report that one of the best indicators of future retention (teacher retaining the student and student staying with the instrument) is regular playing with other people. 

Outside of music, I am very introverted. Music is my socializing. I am not saying I deliberately went about using music to instigate and motivate a social life. It just seems to have worked out that way. (Those who know me know that when out and about, but not playing music, I will likely be found alone at a diner reading over coffee.)

Also, as has been said - be sure of your motives. Joining a jam is a bump to get over. Even now, with years of jamming experience, I am reluctant for a moment to go out and play. I have to push myself just about ever time. Avoiding it is immediately rewarded by a reduction in anxiety.

Playing alone because you'd rather, is fine by me. I will miss playing with you. Playing alone because you haven't gotten over the bump, hmmmm, thats a different scenario.

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## Ellen T

What a relief to know there are others like me.  I love playing, but for me it is strictly a hobby and not a path to anything else.  I don't even like to play around my family, so I get a little too happy when I'm home alone.  I'm already trying to figure out out-of-the-house suggestions for my hubby when he retires so I can retain my playing time.  Sometimes it feels like I am having a mando affair, being too secretive in my time with it, and the rush I get knowing that it is something just for me and that I don't have to share it.  Or, I am just a perv.  :Disbelief:

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rgray

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## Steve Zawacki

I'm another who just enjoys playing for the sake of playing - not a career, not a moneymaker, not of "bondng" experience and not a problem.  Occassionally a mini-jam with granddaughter-guitarist is fine, but that's about it.  The time for being in a band, participating at festivals or anything close to it has gone by for me.  Music is now a totally relaxing experience, and anything which can add any stress to it is avoided at all costs.  

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate and admire those with the discipline to perform in public.  The level of practice and rehearsal necessary to do it right is much more than retiree-me wants to commit.  Those who do it get a sincere tip-of-the-hat from me.  

It's fun being a musical amateur who is only into it all for personal pleasure.   Keeping it "fun" makes it a joy.

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rgray

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## stevedenver

I post this not as a criticism, but more as reminder that there's a lot to be learned.

I too can be a loner, but, mostly out of convenience.
And I too love getting lost in my music.  Very internal.

It can be pita to travel to play at times, at some jam in the boonies, coordinating with other players, etc., and lets face it, you may not click , socially or musically with everyone.  And its not all 'productive time'. Dealing with others musically is an exercise/skill/discipline in itself.


I think, by not playing with others, you are missing many essentials of music.
not the least of which are:
music as an in the moment performance/delivery-ie unique each and every time.  I try to keep this in mind when i play.  It often dazzles me, as sometimes a song is superb, and other times its almost train wreck. Same guy on mando playing with the same folks, playing songs I really know.  Serendipity or oblivion on any give day.  Maybe not immediately noticeable from outside, but it is from inside.

There are music skills that are unique and can only be developed , imho, by playing with others; timing, listening, adapting, improvising, on demand delivery.  I am convinced that it develops part of you musical brain that nothing else can, not playing to backing tracks etc.

One can work and play alone nicely and possibly achieve a lot, but, playing with others is only learned by doing so, imho.
I love playing alone, but its not the only way i play.

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John Lloyd, 

Mandobart

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## TonyP

Having observed the tests for Asperger I feel like I fall somewhere on the mild end of the scale. My son is more towards the other end. What that did at first when I got into playing mandolin was give me an obsession that overrode my introverted nature. But as that passion lessened it's gotten harder and harder to make myself go to concerts and I've completely given up on jams and festivals. I'd rather comb my hair with a cheese grater while chewing on a ball of tin foil. I can't take the tension. 

But playing in a stable band setting lets my obsessive nature overcome the introvert. I'm long past being obsessed with the mandolin so playing in a band is the only thing that keeps me wanting to play. Otherwise I let my other passions take up my time.

 For me I know it's not good to let my introvert nature rule my life. Life is short and I value playing music with my musical buddies way too much. My wife thinks I have a ton of friends. But they are all my music buddies. Not until I pointed out to her that the only place I connect with them is music did she get it's not exactly the same. Some folks I've known for decades and I don't know their last name, or what they do. But that doesn't mean we can't pick right up where we left off last time we picked. 

Everybody has their own path, but if it weren't for playing mandolin I'd have never gotten dragged kicking and sweating into the wonderful wide world of the acoustic music community. It changed my life and it's not easy going against my nature but it's been for the good.

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Robert Billings

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## f5joe

Around these parts, if you pick "out" you'd better be good.  People don't have much room for folks like me.

I've tried for five years to get a few people together just to informally pick once a week.  Near impossible to find anyone interested.

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## Jonathan Bailey

While I am definitely an introverted person who needs time alone at the end of the day, I find I enjoy my instrument the most when I'm able to play with other people. I honestly don't think I'd still be playing if it weren't for the band I'm in. Something about being able to apply things I've learned to an actual band setting feels really rewarding. On the other hand, if you are content playing by yourself and for yourself, I don't see a problem. Getting outside of your comfort zone is good and all but everyone is wired differently.

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stevedenver

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## Steve Zawacki

> ....I think, by not playing with others, you are missing many essentials of music.
> not the least of which are:
> music as an in the moment performance/delivery-ie unique each and every time.  I try to keep this in mind when i play.  It often dazzles me, as sometimes a song is superb, and other times its almost train wreck. Same guy on mando playing with the same folks, playing songs I really know.  Serendipity or oblivion on any give day.  Maybe not immediately noticeable from outside, but it is from inside.
> 
> There are music skills that are unique and can only be developed , imho, by playing with others; timing, listening, adapting, improvising, on demand delivery.  I am convinced that it develops part of you musical brain that nothing else can, not playing to backing tracks etc.
> 
> One can work and play alone nicely and possibly achieve a lot, but, playing with others is only learned by doing so, imho.
> I love playing alone, but its not the only way i play.


A lot depends on what your life outside of music is like.  For most of my adult life every day involved major interactions with more folk than I'll ever remember, often in intense, demanding, sometimes chaotic and often combative situations.  Being able to separate myself from my fellow man for some much needed peace and solitude was cherished time.  Music as part of that time happened not often enough, but it did "soothe the savage...."  

For folk who see their non-work time as an opportunity to interact with others, good for you.  That's your choice and you deserve what pleasure you can get.  For folk who see that same non-work time as an opportunity to escape from society for a while, that too is an earned choice.

There are folk who see music as a quest toward some quasi-quantifiable level of perfection, and attainment of that requires whatever it takes - study, lessons, new gear, jams, etc.. Conversely, there's folk like me who play to _play_, not as a stepping stone to another level, but for the pure, simple enjoyment of it all.  I don't care if I get any better, acquire more knowledge in order to "graduate" to the next level, or become more skilled so I can say, "I can do that run just as good as ------." I'm happy to hear the sounds, relax my mind and heart, and be pleased that I have what I have.   

The reasons folk are involved with music are legion, and all of them good and none should be criticized.  This is not a one-size-fits-all world, no more than one-genre-is-best is true.  Enjoy it all while you can (especially that $&@%# chord I can't reach) because life's too short.

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rgray

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## Mark Wilson

> There are music skills that are unique and can only be developed , imho, by playing with others; timing, listening, adapting, improvising, on demand delivery.  I am convinced that it develops part of you musical brain that nothing else can, not playing to backing tracks etc.


Most of my musical instincts were gained playing bass in bands.  I'm sure it's more true for mandolin.  Stuff you never learn at home.

I have tried using craigslist and internet to find local groups to jam with. It has to be easier when you find folks playing at your current level. I'll wait until I get closer to their level to try that again.  Not that i want to play everything at full tilt but it's the normal that I've found so far.

Pretty content playing alone tho.  Doesn't involve planning or broken commitments. I pick the song and the speed.  If I get bored with that I can take up the banjo.

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stevedenver

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## JeffD

> Around these parts, if you pick "out" you'd better be good.  People don't have much room for...


Does that include getting together for a jam, or just performing. Jams can be pretty welcoming. Old time, blue grass, country, folk sing along, etc.

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## Ellen T

> There are folk who see music as a quest toward some quasi-quantifiable level of perfection, and attainment of that requires whatever it takes - study, lessons, new gear, jams, etc.. Conversely, there's folk like me who play to _play_, not as a stepping stone to another level, but for the pure, simple enjoyment of it all.  I don't care if I get any better, acquire more knowledge in order to "graduate" to the next level, or become more skilled so I can say, "I can do that run just as good as ------." I'm happy to hear the sounds, relax my mind and heart, and be pleased that I have what I have.   
> 
> The reasons folk are involved with music are legion, and all of them good and none should be criticized.  This is not a one-size-fits-all world, no more than one-genre-is-best is true.  Enjoy it all while you can (especially that $&@%# chord I can't reach) because life's too short.


Steve Z., I feel like you have crawled into my head and articulated exactly what I think and feel about playing.  I, too, spent years having to deal with pushy clients and ridiculous deadlines for them, and now that I am retired, I do not want any schedule or performance expectations imposed on me.  This is something I do for myself and I can pick the songs I play and the style without having to compromise with anyone.  It's total freedom for me.  I don't care if I get better, as long as I can play the tunes I like and they sound right to me.  It's truly "playing" - not working.

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Charles E., 

rgray

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## Mandobart

I fit the original posted definition of an introvert - I recharge alone vs with other people.  I would find it worse to spend all my time with others as opposed to spending my time alone.  I very much look forward to my weekdays off when my lovely and patient wife is at work and my daughter (truly my life's greatest blessing) is at school, so I can change strings, practice, try out new tunes, etc.  I like most people; grew up in a large family, spent many years on a submarine with ~100 other guys (wait, i hated that), I like parties and have friends.  But time alone is essential to what passes for sanity with me.

All that said, my favorite musical activity is playing music with other people.  Music to me is best as a communal experience.  And practically, my mandolin playing after 5 years is many levels above where my guitar playing was at 10 years.  The difference is I learned guitar by playing and practicing alone.  I learned mandolin by playing at jams and open mics several times each week, along with solo practice at home.  So if you want to improve (and I have musical friends who really _don't_ care to ever improve) you simply won't improve as quickly or as much by being a musical loner.  I know that more competent I become, the more I like the sound of my own playing, the more I enjoy it.  There are those as well who feel defeated after spending time with "better" players and it brings them down; if that's you then maybe its best not to be a communal player....

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## John Flynn

This is a great thread! My Myers Briggs scores (INTP) show me as far on the Introvert scale as you can go. I too hate crowds, shopping, lines to get into places and "open seating" workplaces, which as a consultant, is unfortunately what I'm in most of the time. Yet I have enjoyed being in bands, going to jams and I've played in church choirs continuously for over 35 years. I agree with Tobin that music is a great "bridge" for introverts to relate to other people. 

I do think it provides its challenges.  I like smaller groups rather than larger ones, although the choir I'm in now is huge. I deal with it by mentally relating more to the music than the people. I listen to what's going on and add my part, I hope tastefully. It's like I'm listening to a CD and playing along. I also prefer to sit on the edge of the group, not sandwiched in the middle. But on the other hand, I really don't like playing solo for an audience. I need to have at least one other instrumentalist playing with me to feel comfortable. I think four might be my ideal number. 

A psychologist turned me on to a book I can recommend: "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking" by Susan Cain. It makes two really good points IMHO: First, introverts have to plan for "quiet time" when doing extroverted activities. The book talks about a military officer who became a really powerful public speaker, but he was so introverted that he needed to go in a room by himself for 20 minutes before he could go out and speak. 

Second, introverts can really benefit by selectively doing extroverted activities, while respecting their need to be alone. Extroverts are two-thirds of our world and even a lot of introverts are denying their introversion, running around every day miserably trying to be extroverts to fit in. I think it's all about knowing yourself and respecting who you really are.

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John Lloyd

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## Astro

When I feel I need to be alone, I get a far away look in my eye, pick up my mandolin, and begin to play. 

Everyone leaves. 

Works like a charm.

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## nickster60

I guess I am in the same boat as the rest. I don't know if I am a introvert, I am friendly and strike up a conversation quickly. I just find most people annoying. Most I find are petty,silly and just plan juvenile. I prefer just to not deal with all of the baloney. I did advance quickly when I belonged to a bluegrass assn. but it was a gossipy affair with lots of in-fighting. The more people I meet the more I appreciate  my dog. If I need to recharge my batteries I like to go for a motorcycle ride,it seems to work the best for me.

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## Carl Robin

Introvert, extrovert--I don't want to define myself as either, it depends on the situation.  The way I see it is we all have a cycle, moving towards, and away from interacting with other people.  Both are rewarding, and have drawbacks.  So we cycle in and out of other people's company.  I practice alone, so that I can play better for and with other people.  They don't need to listen to me struggling with unfamiliar music.  A few errors are OK, perfection is too much to expect, from myself or others.  I don't want complete self-absorbtion, that's lonely and limiting.  Too much togetherness could be aggravating, tiring.  Everyone has to find their own happy medium.

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## JeffD

> A psychologist turned me on to a book I can recommend: "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking" by Susan Cain..


I am glad, John, that you mention that book. It really is wonderful. And uniquely relevant to this particular thread. The author, Susan Cain, did a TED talk that brings it all together. 

http://www.ted.com/talks/susan_cain_..._of_introverts

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John Lloyd

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## Steve Ostrander

I would join this introvert club, but I'm not a joiner :Smile:  I am not entirely comfortable with people one-on-one, but I do enjoy performing as part of a trio. Then, I tend to lose my intro and slide over to extro. I credit performing with helping me be more self-confident.

I have never performed solo, and probably never will. I need the support of my bandmates. I actually enjoy and look forward to our weekly practice sessions. So I guess I'm a split personality: mostly introverted but I do come out of my shell to perform. Stage fright isn't an issue for me. I do get anxious before a gig, but it's more like, "C'mon, let's go, I want to play!"

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## Ivan Kelsall

From f5joe - _"Around these parts, if you pick "out" you'd better be good. People don't have much room for folks like me."_. You need to move my friend !. I've been a 'bedroom picker' for over 35 years with the occassional excursion to a few UK  Bluegrass festivals,now mostly 'gone',but i've never encountered a_ 'we don't have room for you culture'_. That's pretty sad !.
  Back in the '60's when i was playing banjo regularly,there were so manyplaces to play & so many musicians around,that i could kick up a 'scratch band' almost weekly. These days,months if not years go by without i'm able to play with more than one like-minded musician. It's purely the love of Bluegrass music that's kept me interested all these years. If all us 'loner' Banjo / mandolin / guitar pickers & fiddlers could get together some time,we'd be the 'next generation' of Trad. Bluegrass bands all on our own !!!,
                    Ivan  :Wink:  :Mandosmiley:

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## JeffD

Jamming culture is a small part of the world. Especially the modern world. For most people music has three parts:

listen to it.
play it in high school band.
play it with the ambition of becoming a star.

You even see that innaccurate understanding within the community of musicians. I know many, many guitarists whose main motivation, whether explicitly stated or not, is to become a star. If someone were to convince them "you will never be a star, you will never make more than gas money or be known beyond your friends and family for your music" - they would give up on the spot. There would be no enjoyment for them otherwise.


I bring this up to dissuade folks who may have perhaps adopted the false dichotomy "I don't want to perform so I play at home alone". 

Jamming is another option. I hate performing. But I love playing, and I especially love jamming with others. For me, and for many with whom I play, there is no performance aspect, we do not seek an audience, we aren't looking to be listened too by anyone outside of our jam group. We respond to applause with embarrasment and to praise with deflection.

For many of us there is no competitive aspect. We go out of our way to encourage new players, and help each other with tips and tricks and encouragement, and work to play better for the love of playing better and for the love of the music. When one of us "nails it" the rest of us are genuinely happy. What little "showing off" there is comes off entirely good natured, like a child showing his parents his costume for the school play.

There is also an absence of "self expression". Its wonderful, really. We play expressively, absolutely, and value that in good playing, but we make no representation that it is us we are expressing, or that we even have something we need to express. If you were to decipher what we express in playing music, it would be something like "I love this tune, don't you love this tune, listen to this great tune, its a fun tune, here play it with me".

My point is that it is possible to seek to avoid performing, avoid showing off, avoid uncomfortably intimate expression, and still play with others regularly in a jam. 

It is great to play at home alone, I do it a lot. And if you prefer it to playing with others thats ok. I am just pointing out that the alternative to playing alone at home may not as onerous as one might think, and you don't have to become an ambitious show off emoting a broken heart with killer licks in front of strangers, to play music regularly with friends.

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doc holiday

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## JeffD

> If all us 'loner' Banjo / mandolin / guitar pickers & fiddlers could get together some time,we'd be the 'next generation' of Trad. Bluegrass bands all on our own !!!,


We independants have to stick together.

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## JoeyJoeJoe

I don't think I'm actually an introvert - I'm sort of a shy extrovert. But I think it's important to differentiate between the natural need of creative individuals (such as yourselves) to have periods of solitude from the type of introversion that leads us to stay in the basement rather than get out and play with others. I've recently been invited to play with some friends, and I really didn't feel ready (I posted about this in another thread - and thank you mandocafe for your help!) and was quite anxious about it. I still kind of am, but I'll be damned if I'm not going to do it. But I've been really focused on getting a few tunes down reasonably well - and I've made progress in the last few days that has honestly surprised me. I feel like I can probably survive at least a few tunes now, and I never would have focused on some serious flaws in my playing if I hadn't accepted the invitation. Amazing what the prospect of being hanged in the morning can do to your focus....

So, while I understand being an introvert can be really hard to overcome, I also wonder whether you'd be an ever stronger and more competent muscian in the long run for having forced yourself to do so.

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## stevedenver

I think so.  Music is to some extent, a discipline.

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## JeffD

I would never tell anyone you have to overcome being an introvert. Never. Its probably impossible anyway. I am not convinced, especially after reading the book mentioned by Susan Cain, I am not convvinced it is any better to be an extrovert.

I think one of the things that binds musicians is the shared experience of striving to play better, alone, at home, away from everyone. We all do this, we all have to do this, and it is a kind of shared "trauma" that binds us together. We are together in understanding first hand our necessarily separate experiences.

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Randolph, 

tangleweeds

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## Richard58

I used to get out to pick a lot, but enjoy staying home picking with CDs and jam tracks a lot more now.

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## Ellen T

I'm not an introvert, in fact I had a reputation when I was working for spending too much time socializing with my colleagues, and I'm not at all shy around strangers.  I'm not always nice to them, but I'm not shy around them  :Smile: .  My not wanting to play with others has nothing to do with the social aspect; it's just something that I do not want to share.  It's Gollumism.

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## JoeyJoeJoe

> I would never tell anyone you have to overcome being an introvert.


I should have been more precise. I meant that it may be beneficial to a person's progress as a musician to overcome those elements of the introverted personality that prevent him/her from playing with others. Obviously, if it's a fundamental part of a person's character, it's probably not something they should try to change - rather they should embrace it.

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## bayAreaDude

> I don't think I'm actually an introvert - I'm sort of a shy extrovert. But I think it's important to differentiate between the natural need of creative individuals (such as yourselves) to have periods of solitude from the type of introversion that leads us to stay in the basement rather than get out and play with others. I've recently been invited to play with some friends, and I really didn't feel ready (I posted about this in another thread - and thank you mandocafe for your help!) and was quite anxious about it. I still kind of am, but I'll be damned if I'm not going to do it. But I've been really focused on getting a few tunes down reasonably well - and I've made progress in the last few days that has honestly surprised me. I feel like I can probably survive at least a few tunes now, and I never would have focused on some serious flaws in my playing if I hadn't accepted the invitation. Amazing what the prospect of being hanged in the morning can do to your focus....
> 
> So, while I understand *being an introvert can be really hard to overcome*, I also wonder whether you'd be an ever stronger and more competent muscian in the long run for having forced yourself to do so.


It's unfortunate that an introvert would feel the need to 'overcome' who they are.  That really leads to much stress and unhappiness.  Susan Cain's book delves into this much deeper, but the gist is that an introvert is a much more content and happy person if they value who they are, and highly, rather than seeing their basic nature as a liability to overcome.  Introverts definitely need to push themselves in various ways as a minority in an extrovert culture, particularly in the states, but embracing being an introvert (realizing your unique needs, making sure they get met) works much better that attempting to overcome it.  Many famous performers and musicians are introverts, so it's not something that needs to prevent you from achieving those goals, if you have those goals.  Being shy is a much different thing, though it can look the same from the outside.

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## JoeyJoeJoe

> It's unfortunate that an introvert would feel the need to 'overcome' who they are.


See my comment above yours. I wasn't clear, and I apologize.

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## Tom Smart

I know a few people I wish would overcome being extroverts.

One good thing about having a lot of musicians in my circle of friends: Often, when I'm at a party and the small talk is driving me up the wall, I can find a couple of musicians and say, "let's pick."

Music is the perfect way for introverts to socialize without, you know, socializing.

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Cue Zephyr, 

Denman John, 

sgrexa, 

TheArimathean

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## Brandon Sumner

The only downside, as far as I can see, to being a musical loner, is that it will take greater discipline and drive to keep at the instrument. In some cases much much greater. 

 I agree with this statement, and it is the biggest struggle I face musically, I am very much the introvert, do wish I could find a group to play with though.

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## Ellen T

> I know a few people I wish would overcome being extroverts.
> 
> One good thing about having a lot of musicians in my circle of friends: Often, when I'm at a party and the small talk is driving me up the wall, I can find a couple of musicians and say, "let's pick."
> 
> Music is the perfect way for introverts to socialize without, you know, socializing.


Maybe it all comes down to comfort levels with different groups of people.  Back in the '60s nearly everyone I knew played an instrument of some sort, and after I quit band (I played string bass but they wanted me to alternate on tuba, ick), I bought a recorder and drifted into a Baroque recorder club with some friends.  I assumed that out in the real world, most of the people I would meet would play an instrument, and I am still in shock at how few adults I have known that do play one.  If I had run into fellow music-makers decades ago, I might have hooked up with some, but at my current age (retired) I don't feel the need to fit some strange new people into my life when I am content to do music on my own.

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## Ellen T

> The only downside, as far as I can see, to being a musical loner, is that it will take greater discipline and drive to keep at the instrument. In some cases much much greater. 
> 
>  I agree with this statement, and it is the biggest struggle I face musically, I am very much the introvert, do wish I could find a group to play with though.


Maybe this is why I never refer to myself as a musician, just as a player or a hobbyist.  I enjoy the heck out of playing, but I don't feel the need to aim to keep up with the pros.  Most bowlers will never have perfect games, most golfers will never make the pro circuit, most painters will not get their work into a museum or gallery.  Doesn't mean they can't still enjoy it at their own level without making themselves nuts over not advancing at some arbitrary pace.  If I am better today than I was last month or last year, that is good; if I'm the same, I can live with it.

And once I stopped differentiating between "practice" and "playing" I found I was spending MORE time doing it.

----------

Steve L

----------


## f5joe

> Does that include getting together for a jam, or just performing. Jams can be pretty welcoming. Old time, blue grass, country, folk sing along, etc.


Yes, jams.  Finding folks at your own skill level willing to pick is very difficult.

----------


## Steve Zawacki

> When I feel I need to be alone, I get a far away look in my eye, pick up my mandolin, and begin to play. 
> 
> Everyone leaves. 
> 
> Works like a charm.


Especially if I decide to sing at the same time.....

----------


## Charles E.

The Introvert Song..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_8UkYshoGQ

And an anthem........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L2MVUmonyQ

Great thread.

----------

Dobe, 

Jim, 

John Lloyd

----------


## OldSausage

When you pick with extroverts, what happens? Blah blah blah, this guy I know, my surgery, the cable company etc. All night long. Around 3am, oh, I guess let's pick one. 

I'm all for introverts, they get down to business. I just wish they'd get out more.

----------

2Sharp, 

Astro, 

Brandon Sumner, 

Cue Zephyr, 

hank, 

Jim, 

mandolinlee, 

Mark Wilson, 

Pete Jenner, 

Petrus, 

TheArimathean

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

A 'true' extrovert is actually the 'most' introverted of all. Their extrovert behaviour is all a 'put on'. If they're totally shunned by  folk who get sick of their behaviour,sit back & watch 'em crumble. Extroverts thrive on 'being noticed & being the centre of attention' & when all that goes,they're lost,something i find profoundly sad. There's also a difference between somebody who's an 'extrovert' & the _'common braggart'_,a dispicable species whom i do my very best to avoid. They're the one who usually can't play for ***t & have a hugely expensive instrument to brandish in front of folk in order to prove the fact - we've all met them. OS's example seems to be more in their character than an 'extrovert proper'. Extroverts can be calmed down if asked to do so,but a braggart just 'has to brag',how else would they get noticed ?.
   Years back at a Bluegrass festival over here in the UK,i was part of a group jamming away,when a guy rolled up with a beautiful Monteleone "F" style which he told us had once belonged to David Grisman. How true this was we didn't know, but he all but thrust it up our noses to prove the point. He then joined in & proceeded to totally screw us all up. The guy couldn't play a lick,but he had a nice mandolin. Maybe for him,that was all that was required to make the grade,& believe me,i've met many others like him over the years, :Frown: 
                          Ivan :Chicken:

----------


## Petrus

Agree with a lot of what's been said here ... and a lot has been said so I'm not sure how to approach this.

Playing for yourself is as legitimate as playing around anyone else. Ultimately, you only have yourself to satisfy -- or not. Even some great professional performers have confessed to being basically shy individuals, and that they struggle to get themselves up for each performance. It's sort of a release valve for super-introverts, maybe.

I'm introverted to an extreme extent, yet also make public outbursts from time to time, usually at the most inopportune time. I've evolved from playing alone to playing to accompany local gatherings of friends -- I'm doing something tomorrow night, in fact -- though I like to think of myself as providing background accompaniment to gatherings that would otherwise lack music altogether. So far, I haven't had any friends politely excuse themselves, so I can't be too bad.  :Grin:    I haven't jammed yet; I think I'd find the competitiveness daunting.  (An acquaintance of mine plays drums -- or thinks he does -- but he smashes them like Bonham and has no sense of what a "jam" is supposed to be; the last time he and I played in the same room, he on the drums and me with my fiddle, I just gave up as he was making no efforts to moderate his dynamics or keep a rhythm with me at all.)

I find the mando and fiddle to be relaxing and meditative, and musically challenging, on an intellectual level; instruments make my brain go to different areas and use different neurons than usual, opening up new channels. And so far it's kept me from picking up my .22, which is about my only other alternative right now. So I'm grateful for that. No audience required.

----------


## Beanzy

Back in the late '80s I used to go to totally isolated spots to play and practice my tin whiste or recorders. Up in the Mountains of Vizcaya/ Gipuzkoa or in Wicklow were favourites.

The headland above Plentzia used to be great. Loads of people a mile or so away but solitude there looking down on it all.


The thing is when you've got music you don't need to be with people. You can be, but you don't need to be.

----------

Jim, 

John Lloyd, 

Steve Zawacki, 

tangleweeds

----------


## Caleb

Great thread. 

I'm a husband and dad before anything else, so for someone like me it's not possible to get involved in a once a week kind of playing deal. Some weeks go by when I don't even have 10 minutes to pick up an instrument.  I would love to find someone who plays guitar that enjoys the old music I like to play. To me a guitar/mando duo is just so nice to hear. But I don't know anyone like that and have largely given up on finding anyone like that.  So I sit with my tune books and just enjoy being able to play and create music. 

I've gone out to festivals and things and they can be fun. But the older I get, the less I like flashy playing and so many out there are just flashy players. I can't play like that and don't even want to anymore anyway. 

I think there's a whole other aspect to "performing" or playing for/in front of others that has been created by music becoming a celebrity thing. Once upon a time a lot of people owned instruments and played, and it was common to go to someone's home and play/sing together.  But now there is a world accustomed to what they hear on radio/CD, etc.  It creates a lot of pressure when someone sees you have a guitar and wants to hear all their favorite songs played just like they're used to hearing them. I'm a decent guitarist but if I can't play every song the average fellow wants to hear (and often only bits of it that make it recognizable before they lose interest) then "I suck."   This kills a lot of the joy of sharing music.

----------


## Steve Zawacki

I'm not sure the introvert/extrovert labels are appropriate.  There are some things I do that are quite public, and include speaking before large audiences.  There are other things I do that are private, mainly because there are times I'm  honestly sick of being around people.  Those folk who have spent a large part of their lives in people-intensive businesses and such sometimes just want solitude to help recharge the mental/physical batteries.

Times, situations and conditions change.  The day may come when the desire to participate in "group music" returns, but until then I'm quite happy sitting in the back yard, serenading my dogs, the birds and the occasional butterfly.  That's all the audience I can tolerate at this time.  I don't feel like I'm missing anything.

----------


## TonyP

The first 10yrs I played, I played guitar and never played with anybody just practicing alone. I couldn't even think about how I would play with somebody, it was so scary and daunting. And could never play in front of anybody. Still can't if it's solo.

Then while at aircraft school and living on less than $200 a month(!) a friend from class played guitar so he talked me into picking with him. None of us had any $$ and had little to do outside of class because the curriculum was such you didn't have time for a job. So you had to find cheap entertainment and we did it by picking. 

I became the phantom roomate as there was already 3 guys jammed into a 2 bedroom apt. and I lived in a trailer outside of town. Most of the complex was students. Some were in our rotation and the rest either before us or behind us in rotation. 

 He was what I'd call a natural extrovert. He didn't do it for the attention, he just had been in so many situations(many life and death, like being a waist gunner on a Huey in Vietnam) he just had to live the day to day stuff to the fullest. He really didn't care what other people thought. I came to realize I could shield myself behind him as we'd get together after another tough week of practicals and exams and just lose myself in the music. Music has always been my escape whether listening or later when able to play it. So when the rest of the guys would come wandering in looking for something to do, it was always a party if we were pickin'. 

Because we came from totally different worlds he taught me Bluegrass and folk. I taught him some jazz. He was a great singer and rhythm player. I got pushed in ways I'd never have done on my own.  I learned how to sing while playing, and sing harmony. We both got that what we did together was greater than the sum of the parts. 

The last semester of school I was able to get my first mandolin and that changed everything.  I couldn't even practice somewhere without being asked to come and pick with people I didn't know. The whole time I played guitar I never had a problem being by myself. Ever since I got a mandolin I have only gone once without being in a band and that was because I quit playing for 4yrs. 

I HATE to perform. And only after almost 40yrs of being on stage with bands have I gotten to where I can most times relax enough to where I can have some fun. The only thing that keeps me going with it is the inspiration of doing the stuff I can't do alone. And I've made peace with the fact that the great front men/women I've been lucky to play with over the years are extroverts. So sooner or later you have to play out, or they leave. Even though most times those wonderful musical moments where the vocals give me a chill or I play some break that I have no clue where it came from, never happens on stage. It has been my refuge from the pressures of family, work and life. 

Yes, my name is Tony and I'm a introvert and a music junky.

----------

tangleweeds

----------


## John Lloyd

Simple question; complicated answer (at least in my case).

Short version: In most ways I fit the introvert profile--INTP, if that Meyers-Briggs stuff is any more valid than a tabloid's astrology column--solidly. Thus it's a bit odd that I don't necessarily mind being _in front of_ a couple thousand people.

Being _in_ a crowd, on the other hand, skeeves me right out of my socks. The difference between a crowd and a mob is just one wrong stimulus. Small groups, say anywhere up to a few dozen, are less of a problem.

For the most part I enjoy jamming. I find real-time musical interaction much easier than real-time verbal, for lifelong reasons which may well be neurological and which I won't go into right here. On the other hand I love solo musical exploration, to the point where 3 or 4 hours feel more like 20 minutes. Mood has a lot to do with it. Lots of people in this forum could probably say the same.

So I'm not really antisocial or classically agoraphobic; 'selectively gregarious' is a better way of putting it.

*John Flynn* and *JeffD*, thank you for your posts in this thread. Now I've got another book to add to my wishlist.

----------


## John Lloyd

Wow, good topic.

My take, short version: In most ways I fit the introvert profile--INTP, if that Meyers-Briggs stuff is any more valid than a tabloid's astrology column--solidly. Thus it's a bit odd that I don't necessarily mind being _in front of_ a couple thousand people.

Being _in_ a crowd, on the other hand, skeeves me right out of my socks. The difference between a crowd and a mob is just one wrong stimulus. Small groups, say anywhere up to a few dozen, are less of a problem.

For the most part I enjoy jamming. I find real-time musical interaction much easier than real-time verbal, for lifelong reasons which may well be neurological and which I won't go into right here. On the other hand I love solo musical exploration, to the point where 3 or 4 hours feel more like 20 minutes. Mood has a lot to do with it. Lots of people in this forum could probably say the same.

So I'm not really antisocial or classically agoraphobic; 'selectively gregarious' is a better way of putting it.

*John Flynn* and *JeffD*, thank you for your posts in this thread. Now I've got another book to add to my wishlist.

----------


## Jim

Music is one of the few things I am comfortable doing socially. That said I play by myself a lot. Like the OP I find I need significant recovery time from social activities. I am an introvert and shy and live alone in a cabin in the mountains 20 miles from a small town. I love it that way :Smile:  But I go to town to a jam once a week, play music with friends at other times and pick up jobs playing music both solo and with others, and enjoy it. I just need a few days alone to recover. Playing music both gives me a reason to be social and something to do while I am being social since I am terrible at small talk. It also gives me something to do when i'm alone. Pretty much a win win situation :Grin:

----------


## Ellen T

> Great thread. 
> 
> I'm a husband and dad before anything else, so for someone like me it's not possible to get involved in a once a week kind of playing deal. Some weeks go by when I don't even have 10 minutes to pick up an instrument.  I would love to find someone who plays guitar that enjoys the old music I like to play. To me a guitar/mando duo is just so nice to hear. But I don't know anyone like that and have largely given up on finding anyone like that.  So I sit with my tune books and just enjoy being able to play and create music. 
> 
> I've gone out to festivals and things and they can be fun. But the older I get, the less I like flashy playing and so many out there are just flashy players. I can't play like that and don't even want to anymore anyway. 
> 
> I think there's a whole other aspect to "performing" or playing for/in front of others that has been created by music becoming a celebrity thing. Once upon a time a lot of people owned instruments and played, and it was common to go to someone's home and play/sing together.  But now there is a world accustomed to what they hear on radio/CD, etc.  It creates a lot of pressure when someone sees you have a guitar and wants to hear all their favorite songs played just like they're used to hearing them. I'm a decent guitarist but if I can't play every song the average fellow wants to hear (and often only bits of it that make it recognizable before they lose interest) then "I suck."   This kills a lot of the joy of sharing music.


Brilliant!  I think that's why I enjoy buying CDs from small, local performers when we travel; they tend to be good but not flamboyant.  It's also why I dislike so many singers who over-embellish songs to the point where it seems like they are beating the tar out of some lovely melody that may never recover.  I'll take Dolly's plaintive, gentle "I Will Always Love You" over Whitney's steamroller-and-cannons overkill version any day.  I can admire the technical skills of musicians or singers who throw their entire arsenal at every.single.tune, but it won't make me LIKE it.

----------


## Cue Zephyr

Interesting topic. Generally speaking, I'm only extrovert when it comes to college and projects, my interests and hobbies. When it gets past that, I'm very much an introvert. When it comes to music, I become very much of an extrovert again. I love being myself while making music with others. I have three guitar playing friends who all play mostly electric. The most recent time we met to jam, I happily took my acoustic guitar and my banjo. It's fun, sure, but it never gets to playing music that I _really_ love (country/bluegrass) with others - for one it requires a decent set of specific skills and techniques as well as a good ear and a genuine interest in it. When it comes to that, I basically run into a wall because of my location.

Having said all that, I don't have to be a star, but I'd love to stand in the shadow of one, supporting them in the form of a band. That will most likely remain a dream, but I will practice and hope for some day...  :Smile: 

So basically, on one hand I'm not much of a musical loner, but when it really gets down to it, I sure am one.

----------


## Mike Bunting

> A 'true' extrovert is actually the 'most' introverted of all. Their extrovert behaviour is all a 'put on'. If they're totally shunned by  folk who get sick of their behaviour,sit back & watch 'em crumble. Extroverts thrive on 'being noticed & being the centre of attention' & when all that goes,they're lost,something i find profoundly sad. There's also a difference between somebody who's an 'extrovert' & the _'common braggart'_,a dispicable species whom i do my very best to avoid. They're the one who usually can't play for ***t & have a hugely expensive instrument to brandish in front of folk in order to prove the fact - we've all met them. OS's example seems to be more in their character than an 'extrovert proper'. Extroverts can be calmed down if asked to do so,but a braggart just 'has to brag',how else would they get noticed ?.
>    Years back at a Bluegrass festival over here in the UK,i was part of a group jamming away,when a guy rolled up with a beautiful Monteleone "F" style which he told us had once belonged to David Grisman. How true this was we didn't know, but he all but thrust it up our noses to prove the point. He then joined in & proceeded to totally screw us all up. The guy couldn't play a lick,but he had a nice mandolin. Maybe for him,that was all that was required to make the grade,& believe me,i've met many others like him over the years,
>                           Ivan


This doesn't "make' any sense at "all". The first sentence you are explaining the "true" extrovert and then two sentences later you differentiate the extrovert from the braggart, which is it?

----------

stevedenver

----------


## Caleb

> Brilliant!  I think that's why I enjoy buying CDs from small, local performers when we travel; they tend to be good but not flamboyant.  It's also why I dislike so many singers who over-embellish songs to the point where it seems like they are beating the tar out of some lovely melody that may never recover.  I'll take Dolly's plaintive, gentle "I Will Always Love You" over Whitney's steamroller-and-cannons overkill version any day.  I can admire the technical skills of musicians or singers who throw their entire arsenal at every.single.tune, but it won't make me LIKE it.


 I love simple songs with a nice melody, and solos that stay close to the melody. To me that is at the heart of what makes "folk" or acoustic music appealing.  I also listen to lots of classical music, mostly the stuff written for violin. And even when they're playing lots of notes, I never get the idea that the player is showboating. It's always tasteful and edifying, where blazing guitar solos or vibrato-soaked vocals just make me want to stop listening.

----------

Ellen T, 

tangleweeds

----------


## Amanda Gregg

Really interesting thread.  I used to think of myself as an introvert.  I spent all of high school playing guitar in my bedroom.  As I've gotten older, I'm much more of an extrovert.  Just hope I'm not one of these "common braggarts."  Sounds like a nasty disease.

This thread has also made me reflect on the left-brained vs. right-brained and visual-learner vs. auditory-learner dimensions.  One might think that all of us musicians are right-brained auditory learners, but I keep finding myself surrounded by mandolin-playing scientists, mathematicians, and accountants.

----------

DataNick

----------


## Mike Bunting

> I love simple songs with a nice melody, and solos that stay close to the melody. To me that is at the heart of what makes "folk" or acoustic music appealing.  I also listen to lots of classical music, mostly the stuff written for violin. And even when they're playing lots of notes, I never get the idea that the player is showboating. It's always tasteful and edifying, where blazing guitar solos or vibrato-soaked vocals just make me want to stop listening.


100% It doesn't make aesthetic sense to me take simple tune and play one of those overly busy solos that can never capture the beautiful simplicity of the melody. It's like a college student using 300 words to pad a 100 word essay and no matter how clever the language is, you know it's mostly B.S.

----------

Caleb, 

Ellen T, 

tangleweeds

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

Qoute -_ "This doesn't "make' any sense at "all"."_. Maybe not to you,but my ex-wife was a Clinical Psychologist & had had many patients who suffered in the way that i described. So whether it makes sense to you or not doesn't really matter. 
From the book 'The Unquiet Mind" :-_ "Extroverts tend to "fade" when alone and can easily become bored without other people around..."_. Hans Eysenk's book " Dimensions of Personality" might help you along.
   'Extraverts' are _energised by social interaction_,which is pretty hard going if you're on your own,a bit like having an itch you can't scratch,
                          Ivan

----------


## Ellen T

> Qoute -_ "This doesn't "make' any sense at "all"."_. Maybe not to you,but my ex-wife was a Clinical Psychologist & had had many patients who suffered in the way that i described. So whether it makes sense to you or not doesn't really matter. 
> From the book 'The Unquiet Mind" :-_ "Extroverts tend to "fade" when alone and can easily become bored without other people around..."_. Hans Eysenk's book " Dimensions of Personality" might help you along.
>    'Extraverts' are _energised by social interaction_,which is pretty hard going if you're on your own,a bit like having an itch you can't scratch,
>                           Ivan


Yes, the proverbial "people who need people."  I prefer them as musicians or entertainers because they can be quite annoying in professional settings - the ones who monopolize meetings because they have a captive audience, and can be REALLY annoying in social or family gatherings.

----------


## Amanda Gregg

Some conversation here seems to be equating extroverts with narcissists. There is also a variety of extrovert who watches a room and facilitates a conversation, helping to incorporate the quieter voices.  A minor point in defense of us moderate extroverts.

----------

Ellen T, 

Mike Bunting, 

sgrexa, 

stevedenver, 

tangleweeds

----------


## Jim

> Some conversation here seems to be equating extroverts with narcissists. There is also a variety of extrovert who watches a room and facilitates a conversation, helping to incorporate the quieter voices.  A minor point in defense of us moderate extroverts.


World needs every kind of people. It's mostly extroverts that find me jobs since they are more likely to be putting a social event together.

----------


## Steve Zawacki

> .... Music-specific content: I think this may have something to do with why I've always had such horrible luck over the years with music lessons. Somehow, having another person attempting to interact with me when I'm attempting to interact with my musical instrument short-circuits my relationship with said instrument. I lose all enjoyment in playing that particular instrument, which can last for months or even years, and end up picking up another instrument to get my musical fix. 
> 
> So are there other musical loners out there? How has this trait shaped your musical experience?


The above is from Post #1 and inspired all subsequent comments.  However, have we really addressed the OP's comment or drifted into a debate over what constitutes introvert versus extrovert?

The OP brings out a very good point regarding the playing of a musical instrument as relaxation and a means to de-stress, coupled with the quality of music instruction available in the marketplace.  The OP was very explicit in describing "horrible luck" in dealing with music instructors, the resulting abandonment of the instructor and the particular instrument, the loss of the purpose of musical instrument playing for the OP (i.e., enjoyment, relaxation) and the eventual return to music in spite of it all.

I have to admit that I shy away from musical instrument instructors because I haven't found any who really are instructors. Instead the folk I've found are "subject matter experts" with no understanding of how to instruct.  Training and education are disciplines in themselves, and not everyone can instruct, no matter how well they may know their subject matter.   A competent instructor analyzes a student's particular needs, goals, inherent skill level and attained knowledge; and then works with the student in developing a acceptable instructional plan (e.g., curriculum, program of instruction) which will maintain student interest and motivation.  If this isn't done, the student soon sees the instruction as not a path to a goal, but drudgery; and then the student is lost.  If the ultimate student goal is greater relaxation and enjoyment, then the instructor has become a catalyst to failure instead of a partner to success.

i have a lot of empathy with the OP.  With music I seek peace, relaxation and enjoyment in that peace and relaxation.  Mastery of what a subject matter expert musician sees as important (e.g., keep working on that bluegrass chord, or else!) means I, as a true amateur, must "work" at something to a level-of-perfection which meets the instructor's satisfaction rather than my ultimate goal, relaxation.  What a downer!

There are many types/levels of musician out there, and what makes a competent professional musician (i.e., work, study, intense practice, peer critique, more work, etc.) does not make for a satisfied amateur who only wants to "mess around" for the pure fun of it all.

If a "for myself only" amateur decides along the way to join others in music, or never do so at all, depends a lot on the quality of instruction, the friendliness of other musicians (I avoid musical snobs, show-offs and resulting cliques) and whether the opportunity to interact matches with my available time (have other commitments more important than playtime).

So, is it introvert versus extrovert, or a systemic problem with individual music education/instruction coupled with clique-ish jams/festivals?

----------

tangleweeds

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Qoute -_ "This doesn't "make' any sense at "all"."_. Maybe not to you,but my ex-wife was a Clinical Psychologist & had had many patients who suffered in the way that i described. So whether it makes sense to you or not doesn't really matter. 
> From the book 'The Unquiet Mind" :-_ "Extroverts tend to "fade" when alone and can easily become bored without other people around..."_. Hans Eysenk's book " Dimensions of Personality" might help you along.
>    'Extraverts' are _energised by social interaction_,which is pretty hard going if you're on your own,a bit like having an itch you can't scratch,
>                           Ivan


 :Laughing:

----------


## Mike Bunting

I enjoy playing gigs and jamming with others and I enjoy playing and being  by myself.

----------

bratsche

----------


## bratsche

I consider myself blessed to have been able to earn my living almost entirely as a musician.  It was the music that appealed, not particularly the camaraderie of orchestra membership (which may, or may not, exist at all, in my experience).  But for fun, I enjoy getting together with a small group of likeminded musicians to play chamber music.  And often, even to unwind after the end of a long day of rehearsing and/or performing, I'll retreat to my practice room to practice or play some Bach on the mandola.  (I can't get enough of that, as my secret goal is to become as competent on mandola as I am on viola, even at this late stage...)

I'm much more an introvert than an extrovert, more a listener than a talker, and am uncomfortable in any kind of leading role, or in speaking.   Take the instrument out of my hand, and I prefer being by myself than with a group of people; I can't stand crowds.  In social groups of no more than four, I'm fine, but I thrive more when that's not all that often, and remains a special circumstance.  Even with my husband, we both need a good deal of space to follow our individual interests.  Without a lot of time alone, I become frazzled and don't get properly recharged.

bratsche

----------


## fatt-dad

I think I'm introverted in music. I'm a flaming extrovert in society. To me they're different. (I enjoy the unison playing of old-time though 'cause you are with people but alone fitting your melody line into the din.)

f-d

----------


## stevedenver

There are times, the more I play with my band, the more playing alone appeals to me......LOL.....sometimes....... :Confused:

----------

Dobe, 

Jim

----------


## tangleweeds

> This thread has also made me reflect on the left-brained vs. right-brained and visual-learner vs. auditory-learner dimensions.  One might think that all of us musicians are right-brained auditory learners, but I keep finding myself surrounded by mandolin-playing scientists, mathematicians, and accountants.


I've been known to create software/websites or do abstract math for fun, so I suppose it's predictable that music theory is not just fun for me, but also provides me with a lucid structure and language to use in understanding and interpreting music.. I find it calming to run scales and arpeggios, and while I definitely enjoy playing music most, I also enjoy technical exercises as a meditative activity. 

For what it's worth, my Meyers-Briggs is a very consistent INTP. The same way that one can crave daily exercise, I crave a nice chunk focused left-brain activity per day... though, as with exercise, life can get crazy, and I suffer lapses (during which I'm consistently less happy).




> The OP brings out a very good point regarding the playing of a musical instrument as relaxation and a means to de-stress, coupled with the quality of music instruction available in the marketplace.  The OP was very explicit in describing "horrible luck" in dealing with music instructors, the resulting abandonment of the instructor and the particular instrument, the loss of the purpose of musical instrument playing for the OP (i.e., enjoyment, relaxation) and the eventual return to music in spite of it all.
> >snip<
> A competent instructor analyzes a student's particular needs, goals, inherent skill level and attained knowledge; and then works with the student in developing a acceptable instructional plan (e.g., curriculum, program of instruction) which will maintain student interest and motivation.  If this isn't done, the student soon sees the instruction as not a path to a goal, but drudgery; and then the student is lost.


Thanks for bringing this up again, Steve. Continuing what I mentioned above, I think one problem I've had with lessons, is that I've never had a teacher who was really comfortable with the music theory. They were all agreeable and encouraging people, but they also got a deer-in-the-headlights look when I mentioned that if they really wanted something to stick in my mind, just run through the music theory.

My typing peace is about to be interrupted by a basketball game, so I'll respond to some more posts later.

----------


## Ellen T

Except for my brief stint trying to play bass in a Junior High band, and a year in chorus, I've never had any musical instruction.  There must be a tie-in with math and music, because to this day there are certain types of math I have difficulties with, and I have never been able to figure out most music theory.  If you tell me a certain tune is the the key of [whatever], the best I can do is a blank stare.  I can do (and enjoy) geometry, and I've always assumed there was a relation between that and art, which I have also enjoyed.  Although I can sight-read, I mostly play by ear, but in a weird kind of Harold Hill way, where I have to go through the whole tune in my head, then visualize myself playing it.  So is there analytical playing and (not sure what word I need here - instinctive? Visual? Zen?) playing?

----------


## rgray

> Steve Z., I feel like you have crawled into my head and articulated exactly what I think and feel about playing.  I, too, spent years having to deal with pushy clients and ridiculous deadlines for them, and now that I am retired, I do not want any schedule or performance expectations imposed on me.  This is something I do for myself and I can pick the songs I play and the style without having to compromise with anyone.  It's total freedom for me.  I don't care if I get better, as long as I can play the tunes I like and they sound right to me.  It's truly "playing" - not working.


Steve Z and Ellen T - Ditto, ditto, ditto.

----------

Ellen T

----------


## furuta

I love the Harold Hill reference.  When my daughter was first starting violin, the similarities between the Suzuki Method and the Think Method amused me, so perhaps the Professor had it right after all.

----------

Ellen T

----------


## TonyP

> So, is it introvert versus extrovert, or a systemic problem with individual music education/instruction coupled with clique-ish jams/festivals?


The short answer is yes. I've only done a couple of lessons mainly because they were all with extroverts. Except for the one time lesson I did with John R. The others wore me out and scrambled me. To my way of thinking it takes a lot of somethings I don't have to teach somebody how to play. And sitting in a little room with a stranger judging me is about as bad as it gets. I don't mind giving people pointers if they ask, but I'm shocked when somebody wants to know if I give lessons. 

And jams/festivals are the bigger/worse extension of that. I am in NO way saying anybody absolutely has to get out there and do it. Even though it may seem like it. What I was trying to point out was I'm totally a musical loner but circumstance wouldn't let me be and I learned what worked for me and what doesn't. 

Bands work for me because they are smaller and less chaotic and I can quit if it gets too bad. I can choose to invest in interacting with folks that are serious about making the kind of music I want to be a part of. 

If I'm out of musical resources I'll go to a jam just to see if there's anybody to connect with. 99.9% of the time it's a exercise in futility. I always feel steamrolled by the extro's. But I've managed for the last 5yrs to find an evolving group of people to work with. As one leaves another seems to pop up and we're off in a new direction. Yes, it can be hard work but with the right people it's pretty satisfying, energizing and relaxing.

----------


## JeffD

> So is there analytical playing and (not sure what word I need here - instinctive? Visual? Zen?) playing?


Absosolutely. And over the years I have moved from the left brain (analytical) more to the center right. Whereas before I would need to figure it out before hand, and know where to go and why it works, I know have a developed musical intuition and I just go, and often later will figure out why did that work. It is still very valuable to know why, for me, because knowing why, I can generalize it to other situations and work on having a broader musical inutition.

----------


## OldSausage

> Really interesting thread.  I used to think of myself as an introvert.  I spent all of high school playing guitar in my bedroom.  As I've gotten older, I'm much more of an extrovert.  Just hope I'm not one of these "common braggarts."  Sounds like a nasty disease.
> 
> This thread has also made me reflect on the left-brained vs. right-brained and visual-learner vs. auditory-learner dimensions.  One might think that all of us musicians are right-brained auditory learners, but I keep finding myself surrounded by mandolin-playing scientists, mathematicians, and accountants.


All that left-brain, right-brain nonsense has been debunked quite soundly:
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/i...rain-nonsense/

----------

Amanda Gregg, 

Jim Adwell, 

SincereCorgi

----------


## JeffD

> All that left-brain, right-brain nonsense has been debunked quite soundly


Its like telling a jilted lover: "you know, your heart is not really physically broken". The concepts of left brain and right brain thinking have huge utility, however the physical reality is organized in the brain.

----------


## Beanzy

We seem to have bcome very centred on etrovertion and introversion as reasons for being a musical loner.
From my experiences I suspect there may be many more reasons why prefer to play alone. 
I jam with many very introverted people as well as play in orchestras with chronically shy ones. 
I don't find these examples to be particularly unusual.

I would class my self as fairly extrovert but find most pleasure pursuing music alone, even though I continue to get out there because it's got benefits I appreciate.

----------


## bayAreaDude

> Some conversation here seems to be equating extroverts with narcissists. There is also a variety of extrovert who watches a room and facilitates a conversation, helping to incorporate the quieter voices.  A minor point in defense of us moderate extroverts.


Introverts don't need an advocate to make their voices heard.  They will speak for themselves when they want to - sometimes their voice is quiet because they're not interested in the conversation or pretending to be, regardless of what impression that gives others.  When Bill Gates or Warren Buffet have something important to communicate, they do so easily, however force them to sit in a conversation that doesn't interest them, you'll probably get nothing.

----------


## Cue Zephyr

> There must be a tie-in with math and music


Can't be, that would mean I'm good at math and finding it interesting. Neither could be more wrong.  :Grin:

----------


## Randi Gormley

I find my own personal intro- or extro- proclivities have a lot more to do with my age than any innate pattern. like many others, I'm relatively shy and retiring, though I can interact if need be. But I've found that my high school-age shyness has been superceded by an adult's experience with the less-than-optimal people who crop up now and again in any lifetime; where I used to long to live in a lighthouse and eliminate all but the most necessary of human contact, now I just don't want to be bothered by idiots. 

Oddly enough, my musical experiences, while done expressly for my own pleasure, have more often than not been group things. Band in elementary/middle/high school; recorder consort music in college with friends at SCA events; playing duets with my husband when we were just courting and pretty consistently since then; playing in our community Irish band and gigging around with all of them; workshops with like-minded musicians from all over the place, Irish and classical. There is pleasure in playing by myself for myself, but I get a lot of personal satisfaction playing as part of a group, sitting in the back and making music without the pressure of soloing or leading. EllenT mentioned "gollumizing" her music, holding it to herself as a precious gem that needs no other hand to have value. In a way, I see group music almost as a "one ring" thing that brings together people for a common goal and exerts power over every aspect of the world ... or something. Perhaps the analogy is faulty, but while I love playing strictly by myself, I find myself drawn to playing wth others more because the shared experience of making music together, in all its complexity, adds something to my life. I may not have much to say to people in general, but I can talk with another musician about music. I can sit quietly by myself in the back at a session or an orchestra and be perfectly happy, but the joy of making music with others gives me warm fuzzies that playing at home alone doesn't. Consider that an alternate view!

----------

Ellen T

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## SincereCorgi

> Its like telling a jilted lover: "you know, your heart is not really physically broken". The concepts of left brain and right brain thinking have huge utility, however the physical reality is organized in the brain.


Right, it's like with witchcraft. Sure, it's not _real_ or anything, but it has such huge utility if you want to set someone on fire and take their stuff.

----------

Cue Zephyr

----------


## OldSausage

> Its like telling a jilted lover: "you know, your heart is not really physically broken". The concepts of left brain and right brain thinking have huge utility, however the physical reality is organized in the brain.


No, they don't. It really is all nonsense. If you read the article carefully.

----------


## JeffD

> I may not have much to say to people in general, but I can talk with another musician about music. I can sit quietly by myself in the back at a session or an orchestra and be perfectly happy, but the joy of making music with others gives me warm fuzzies that playing at home alone doesn't. Consider that an alternate view!


Music can be a way to relate and share with people that otherwise you might have nothing to say to. Works that way for me often.

----------


## JeffD

> No, they don't. It really is all nonsense. If you read the article carefully.


I did, and it didn't debunk the part of the left brain right brain meme that is useful here. That we can think of two ways of approaching tasks, and that we can see individual approaches being admixtures of these two, and that some people are more comfortable with one, or the other, or mostly one and some of the other or not. That its not physically on the left or the right, and that the dichotomy may more synthatic than actual, and that most of the time we are not all one or all the other, in no way impacts its utility in describing how one might approach music.

----------


## OldSausage

> I did, and it didn't debunk the part of the left brain right brain meme that is useful here. That we can think of two ways of approaching tasks, and that we can see individual approaches being admixtures of these two, and that some people are more comfortable with one, or the other, or mostly one and some of the other or not. That its not physically on the left or the right, and that the dichotomy may more synthatic than actual, and that most of the time we are not all one or all the other, in no way impacts its utility in describing how one might approach music.


Here are some parts I would stress:




> So while some specific functions do lateralize, our minds and personalities are the product of one integrated brain, not each hemisphere independently. It is misleading to the point of being wrong to describe people as either “left brain” or “right brain” in terms of their personality or how they process or learn information, and not just because it is a simplistic false dichotomy.
> ...
> The left-brain/right-brain dichotomy is pop-psychology pseudoscience. Be suspicious of anyone touting it as a legitimate or insightful way of looking at human personality or cognition.


The point is because it is wrong it provides false 'insights'. There are not just 2 ways of looking at things, there are thousands. The left brain/right brain thing just encourages us to be lazy and stop at 2. Nor are there just 2 dimensions on which our thought may be graphed in varying 'admixtures'.

But then, I'm a very left-brain guy, so I would say that.

----------

Jim

----------


## Ellen T

I think I left part of my brain back in the '60s.  Right.

----------


## rgray

> A psychologist turned me on to a book I can recommend: "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking" by Susan Cain.


John - Thanks for the recommendation.  Downloaded to my iPhone and enjoying it.  As a kid, introvert was just a word.  In my mind I was painfully shy and not happy with life. Ran out of Philly when I graduated high school thinking I would change.  No luck. Years and careers later, and with the help of a great wife, I came to my own understanding and acceptance of myself, along with increasing my ability to socialize with my own work arounds. This book is now helping me fine tune that understanding and I will be sharing with my son who has his own introvert tendencies.

Mandatory mando content - I relish the peaceful feelings attained when playing my mandolin plus this new hobby provides some added lubrication for social interaction.  I am not quite up to joining sessions (and may never be) and that is okay.

----------


## JeffD

> But then, I'm a very left-brain guy, so I would say that.


 :Laughing: 


There's two kinds of people in the world, those who divide everything into two kinds, and those that ummm.. don't.

----------

Jim, 

Steve Zawacki

----------


## John Flynn

> There's two kinds of people in the world, those who divide everything into two kinds, and those that ummm.. don't.


Actually there are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those that don't.

To the points about left vs. right brain, I do think it's been debunked as an actual physical phenomenon, and I also agree that it's only one polarized dimension of personality, just as introvert vs. extrovert, and therefore it tends to simplify something that is very complex. But polarized dimensions of personality still are very useful and are commonly used in the social sciences as ways to understand personality. "Thousands of dimensions" is too much for people to effectively deal with. The polar analyses help break down critical aspects of personality so they can be improved upon.

----------

Jim, 

Mandobart

----------


## Mandobart

John Flynn echoes my thoughts on the greater subject of "types."  I have absolutely no formal training in psychology, neural science, human behavior etc.  No formal training in mandolin playing either, as it turns out.  I have learned, through formal education, that most of western science is dedicated to classifying things, including people, to attempt to reduce our universe of infinite variation down to a manageable set of data points.  I believe the development of digital logic based systems have led to casting aside the real analog world.  Sound is not split into clearly delineated frequencies; it is a spectrum of which we select specific tones.  Personality and preference exist also on a continuous spectrum.  How many types of people are there in the world?  About 7 billion.

----------


## OldSausage

> Actually there are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those that don't.
> 
> To the points about left vs. right brain, I do think it's been debunked as an actual physical phenomenon, and I also agree that it's only one polarized dimension of personality, just as introvert vs. extrovert, and therefore it tends to simplify something that is very complex. But polarized dimensions of personality still are very useful and are commonly used in the social sciences as ways to understand personality. "Thousands of dimensions" is too much for people to effectively deal with. The polar analyses help break down critical aspects of personality so they can be improved upon.


This is all well and good, but if the categories "left-brain" and "right-brain" are entirely imaginary and don't really apply to anything in your actual brain, when you try to use them as tools to analyze the way your brain works, do you think they will give you the right answer, the wrong answer, or just a random answer that may or may not be correct? (Hint: it's the last one).

----------


## JeffD

> This is all well and good, but if the categories "left-brain" and "right-brain" are entirely imaginary and don't really apply to anything in your actual brain, when you try to use them as tools to analyze the way your brain works, do you think they will give you the right answer, the wrong answer, or just a random answer that may or may not be correct? (Hint: it's the last one).


Well, there are billions of directions one could walk from where they are. But everyone one of them can be described as so much east and so much north.  The actual east and north are man made, based on stuff that can be measured locally.

So as long as what we mean by left and right brain can be described and understood, which I beleive it has and can, then everyone will know what we mean, despite the verifiable fact that everyone is different and nobody is entirely one or the other and they don't refer to real places in the brain. 

The only way the system breaks down is if the descriptions of what we mean by left and right are not understood, or are not consistent, or have not included enough about behavior to capture what we are referring to.

----------


## catmandu2

> "Thousands of dimensions" is too much for people to effectively deal with.


The behavioral sciences have long acknowledged the lack of utility of much reductionism and are beginning to reconcile the indication for quantum approaches.  We are yet infants in our understanding of phenomena and application of conceptual models.

----------


## OldSausage

> So as long as what we mean by left and right brain can be described and understood, which I beleive it has and can, then everyone will know what we mean, despite the verifiable fact that everyone is different and nobody is entirely one or the other and they don't refer to real places in the brain.


This is just not true. Think of the phlogiston theory. Now, everyone knew what they meant by phlogiston, and because the theory was built to fit around some known facts, it appeared to work pretty well. Everyone was happy. 

But there was just one tiny flaw: because there is actually no such thing as phlogiston, the theory could never be used to *make an accurate prediction*. If it did make a prediction, you could never know if it would be true or false. 

Therefore, although everyone knew what it meant, and many people loved it and wanted phlogiston to exist, because it didn't refer to an actual substance in the real world it had no predictive power, and was finally abandoned after much kicking and screaming. In exactly the same way that the "left brain/right brain" false dichotomy will be once all the people who love it are dead.

----------


## John Flynn

> This is all well and good, but if the categories "left-brain" and "right-brain" are entirely imaginary and don't really apply to anything in your actual brain, when you try to use them as tools to analyze the way your brain works, do you think they will give you the right answer, the wrong answer, or just a random answer that may or may not be correct? (Hint: it's the last one).


They are not imaginary at all. I just said they are not physical, they are behavioral, based on long observations of human behaviors. The determinants of "left brain vs. right brain" (even though they do not physically pertain to the physical brain, at least as we know so far), just like introvert vs. extrovert can be tested, measured and determined reliably. This is long established. 

Your example of Phlogiston theory is interesting, but its apples and oranges. That was an example of physical sciences gone awry. The social sciences measure human perception and behavior, which is real, but is measured differently than physical science. It's like going to a neurologist and saying "I hear voices in my head that make me want to do X." He does a battery of tests that show nothing physical wrong with your brain. But a psychiatrist would come to a different conclusion entirely. Both are valid. One is more helpful than the other.

----------


## SincereCorgi

> They are not imaginary at all. I just said they are not physical, they are behavioral, based on long observations of human behaviors. The determinants of "left brain vs. right brain" (even though they do not physically pertain to the physical brain, at least as we know so far), just like introvert vs. extrovert can be tested, measured and determined reliably. This is long established.


None of it's real, though. All the 'mind' fields based on theory and observation are only a half a step ahead of phrenology, and the Minnesota Multiphasic and Myers-Briggs tests etc are the gussied-up version of reading tea leaves. I'm not the hugest Gladwell fan, but this essay was nicely done:

http://gladwell.com/personality-plus/

----------

Mandobart

----------


## OldSausage

> They are not imaginary at all. I just said they are not physical, they are behavioral, based on long observations of human behaviors. The determinants of "left brain vs. right brain" (even though they do not physically pertain to the physical brain, at least as we know so far), just like introvert vs. extrovert can be tested, measured and determined reliably. This is long established. 
> 
> Your example of Phlogiston theory is interesting, but its apples and oranges. That was an example of physical sciences gone awry. The social sciences measure human perception and behavior, which is real, but is measured differently than physical science. It's like going to a neurologist and saying "I hear voices in my head that make me want to do X." He does a battery of tests that show nothing physical wrong with your brain. But a psychiatrist would come to a different conclusion entirely. Both are valid. One is more helpful than the other.


Well, sure, each of the various attributes that get ascribed to left-brain, let's say, may be real. But since there is nothing to tie them together, they are just attributes. Grouping them together and calling them "left brain" makes no sense, since there is no level of reality to the grouping - the grouping itself really is imaginary.

In your second paragraph, you are just trying to use special pleading to pretend that social sciences don't need to be held to the same standards of reality that what you call "physical sciences" are. But they do. The brain really does work in the real physical world, so you really can apply the same standards to its study that you can apply to anything else. Just because we don't have the ability to physically test a brain yet, that doesn't mean that it could not be studied in that way. In your example the psychiatrist fails because he is applying the wrong tools to the situation, not because you can't use regular science to study the workings of the mind.

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## John Flynn

Cori and Sausage:

If you don't feel anthropology, economics, political science, psychology and sociology have contributed anything to the world, we will just have to disagree on that. I have no need to "plead," that social sciences involve people and therefore cannot be as precise or be held to the same standard a physical sciences, because that point is well established and even self-evident. That's a double-edged sword. On one hand, social sciences can never be as reliable a physical sciences. On the other, they can sometimes be more useful, because the physical sciences cannot predict at all how the billions of people around us will behave and how to influence that. 

BTW, David, I thought it was amusing that you said, "In your example the psychiatrist fails because he is applying the wrong tools to the situation, not because you can't use regular science to study the workings of the mind." That was the opposite of my point. In my example the neurologist fails because he can't diagnose the problem. The psychiatrist however, can diagnose it and help the patient before he hurts himself or others. 

Anyhow, I think we are far afield of mandolins, music or loners. So if you guys want to continue the debate on PMs I would be happy, but for this thread, continue on your own...

----------


## Astro

Left brain and right brain attributes are real and physical. However, they are only tendencies of where certain processing functions occur and there is lots of individual variation. They do not describe anything in regards to personality types. Never were intended to. That is where the false pop science part comes in. 

The original studies showing lateralization of certain language processing vs spacial processing were done in folks who had a disruption of the intersection of the hemispheres in the corpus callosum which links the two halves. That was cool stuff. If I remember correctly, one study was using dividers over their field of vision to assure all visual stimuli went only to the desired hemisphere/half the brain; then they projected a picture of an apple. The subject could not verbalize that they were looking at a slide of an apple. They didn't know what they saw. But then they were told to pick up the object they were seeing on the slide out of several objects placed in front of them, and they would pick up the apple. (or something like that- I don't recall exactly but I'm sure its googligable).

 Interesting stuff, but lots of individual variation and nothing to do with personality tendencies.

----------


## Bruce Cech

It's absolutely amazing that a simple statement of personal preference can generate this amount of activity.  Obviously we all spend way too much time at the keyboard when we should be practicing the mandolin.  We would be playing so well it wouldn't matter who listened.

----------


## Jeff Hildreth

I choose my friends carefully, therefore, I have few. I have one or two friends where we share music.

I choose  to play music alone the majority of the time  because I have a different agenda than most; I don't follow the mainstream. I choose to learn, more than that, I choose to teach myself. We get along fine, teacher and student. : )

I do not care to "jam" nor do I care to be in a band or strut my stuff on stage.

Someone who struts his stuff, and knows it.. it that a braggart or a boor ?

It ain't braggin' if you have the horsepower to back it up.

Folks seem not to care for other folks who really have talent and skill and have the audacity to show it , particularly when they aren't famous or rich.  An envy thing I would suggest.

Interesting conversation.

But I fear pigeon holing with the introvert/extrovert ideas.. too simplistic.

----------

Caleb, 

Ellen T, 

Mandobart, 

Mike Bunting

----------


## OldSausage

> BTW, David, I thought it was amusing that you said, "In your example the psychiatrist fails because he is applying the wrong tools to the situation, not because you can't use regular science to study the workings of the mind." That was the opposite of my point. In my example the neurologist fails because he can't diagnose the problem.


Clearly. That was my mistake in typing. Where I said psychiatrist, I meant to refer to the neurologist from your example. Sorry for the confusion.

I believe that real social scientists absolutely want to be held to the same rigorous standards as other scientists, and make great efforts to do so, and I fear they would be stung by your remarks.

----------


## mandroid

I'm alone now, What am I wearing?   :Confused:

----------


## Ellen T

> I'm alone now, What am I wearing?


Several strategically placed picks?

----------


## OldSausage

I'm hoping the answer is at least pants.

----------


## Steve Zawacki

There's a good reason this isn't an immediate-viewing, video-enhansed forum.....

----------


## allenhopkins

If there are so many introverts out there, how come they all seem comfy revealing themselves to hundreds of strangers on their computers?

Oh well.  I love playing alone, and I love jumping into jams with a dozen strangers and interacting with them.  Just got back from the New England Folk Festival, spending five or six hours a day jamming on fiddle tunes, singing in groups, etc.

After 50 or so years of performing, with mixed success, realize that I'm something of an "attention/approval/applause junkie," who gets psychic returns from audiences.  I cover it up by saying I'm a "professional musician" (in retirement from a _real_ job), but the fact is I'll play for free if people will listen.  And, just to show it _is_ about the music to some extent, I'll also play for free, or for cheap, for people who _don't_ listen.

Playing in groups for decades, either organized bands or informal jams, is mostly how I learned about the music.  Didn't necessarily have to be friends with the other musicians, but learned something from nearly every situation.  Now I'm asked how I can know how to join in a song/tune I've never heard before -- how anticipate a chord change before it even occurs -- and it's just the result of playing with others thousands and thousands of times, learning vocabulary and idiom, interactive skills and the roles of lead, harmony, rhythm, accompaniment, etc.

Guess you can learn these from observation, from teaching materials, from listening to recordings.  Maybe.

Music is very *personal,* but it's also somehow *communal.*  The sounds go out into the air, where any ear can hear them and react.  A solo voice or instrument can be beautiful, but _as_ beautiful as an ensemble of complementary, harmonious voices or instruments?  Dunno -- maybe, again.

No wish to put down those who seek solitary pleasure, or those who find trying to insert themselves into groups to be "annoying" or "off-putting."  Different strokes.  But I've made a helluva lotta friends from playing music with them -- or writing posts to them on the Cafe´-- and it's nice, in my declining years, to be asked repeatedly to lead group singing or jamming.

Hey, let's join hands and sing _Kumbayah,_ OK?

----------


## Jim Adwell

> Playing in groups for decades, either organized bands or informal jams, is mostly how I learned about the music.


I personally need an audience, even if only other musicians (especially other musicians!) to play my best.  This is something that has long been recognized in another performance art, acting.  One needs the feedback to grow as a musician (and an actor).  Even playing for your kids or spouse is musically healthier, so to speak, than playing alone.

On the other hand, playing alone, practicing, is also necessary to burn the stuff you learned from your audience into your brain and make it automatic, so you can learn new things and reach new heights in your musical journey.  Music is ultimately a shared experience between the performer and the audience, with both participating and being entertained.

----------

allenhopkins

----------


## bayAreaDude

> If there are so many introverts out there, *how come they all seem comfy revealing themselves to hundreds of strangers on their computers?*
> 
> Oh well.  I love playing alone, and I love jumping into jams with a dozen strangers and interacting with them.  Just got back from the New England Folk Festival, spending five or six hours a day jamming on fiddle tunes, singing in groups, etc.
> 
> After 50 or so years of performing, with mixed success, realize that I'm something of an "attention/approval/applause junkie," who gets psychic returns from audiences.  I cover it up by saying I'm a "professional musician" (in retirement from a _real_ job), but the fact is I'll play for free if people will listen.  And, just to show it _is_ about the music to some extent, I'll also play for free, or for cheap, for people who _don't_ listen.
> 
> Playing in groups for decades, either organized bands or informal jams, is mostly how I learned about the music.  Didn't necessarily have to be friends with the other musicians, but learned something from nearly every situation.  Now I'm asked how I can know how to join in a song/tune I've never heard before -- how anticipate a chord change before it even occurs -- and it's just the result of playing with others thousands and thousands of times, learning vocabulary and idiom, interactive skills and the roles of lead, harmony, rhythm, accompaniment, etc.
> 
> Guess you can learn these from observation, from teaching materials, from listening to recordings.  Maybe.
> ...


Basic misunderstanding of what introvert and extravert mean.  Lady GaGa is an introvert as well as many other folks in entertainment.  It's not about what you reveal of yourself or how many friends you have.

It's about sensitivity to your physical environment.  This has been measured in the brain.  Being in a highly stimulating environment, such as around lots of people for a long time is exhausting to an introvert.  After they hit a certain threshold, they've had enough and need to leave the situation for some peace and quiet.  An extravert is the opposite - they typically feel under stimulated while they're alone so they seek others out for company to feel better. That's really all there is too it.  Shy and insecure people exist in both camps though it looks very different.

----------

allenhopkins, 

Cue Zephyr, 

tangleweeds

----------


## mandocaster

We all have images of ourselves that may be entirely differerent from how others see us.  We may believe that we are skilled, coordinated, gifted, expressive, etc. as players, but performance anxiety can cripple you or energize you.  My 84 year old dad is a good classical guitar player.  He has just recently started to perform at the local classical guitar society meetings.  All of the faults that are easy to gloss over while playing alone become alarmingly evident in front of an audience.  I think for most people the only solution is to keep putting yourself out there.  Eventually you will relax a bit and it will be fun, mistakes and all.  

Everyone fights inertia.  It's hard to change, but it's good for you.  Really.

----------

Mandobart

----------


## SincereCorgi

> It's about sensitivity to your physical environment.  This has been measured in the brain.  Being in a highly stimulating environment, such as around lots of people for a long time is exhausting to an introvert.  After they hit a certain threshold, they've had enough and need to leave the situation for some peace and quiet.


I have always heard that, too, and it's appealing and straightforward but I don't think it has actually been 'measured in the brain'. This article has a lot of links to studies and the upshot seems to be that the whole introvert/extrovert concept is a pop culture simplification of a lot of different phenomena.

This has a lot of good links: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cr...lly-different/

----------


## Shanachie

I like playing music with others. I don't consider myself an introvert but I just don't know many folks that like acoustic music. Most of my musical friends play electric rock and blues. I need to branch out more.

Playing music is like making love. It's better when done with someone else.

----------


## allenhopkins

> Basic misunderstanding of what introvert and extravert mean….


Actually, a mild attempt at humor.  And it's *extrovert*…

The question of whether one draws energy from associating with groups of people, or is drained by such association, can have direct pertinence to musical choices.  Music can be a solitary activity, but the point I tried to make in my post is that avoiding group musical situations -- *in my case* -- would have impaired not only my enjoyment of my music, but also my musical development.

Would be a truism, to observe that we _all_ have elements of extroversion and introversion, some of which are situation-specific.  And also, that there's a wide spectrum of both tendencies, so that a mild introversion would have only subtle effects on one's musical participation, while a more intense introversion might preclude not only "jumping into" a jam or a sing-around, but also, as the OP said, affect one's ability to even take one-on-one music lessons.

It would be only people at the extreme ends of the spectrum, who would seek "peace and quiet" to the complete exclusion of group musical efforts, or alternatively would hardly play at all unless they were in a group that was playing.

The point I tried to make, perhaps clumsily, is that avoiding group musical interaction can make musical _advancement_ -- not _enjoyment_ -- more difficult by reducing opportunities to learn certain aspects of music.  Don't have to be in a band, or perform before audiences, to get some benefit from interaction with other musicians, or with listeners.

Just my 2¢.

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## Tom Smart

> And it's *extrovert*…


Extravert is a perfectly acceptable spelling.

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allenhopkins

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## Mandomonte

Am at a point in my life where it is hard to just get moving. In play a lot,every day at home on several instruments . Tho not recently. I enjoy going and jamming and some 8-9 hours of pick in'  @ festivals. Have played many bands and solo, duets, etc. A lot depends on who you j as m with. I have some friends,can little older than me that always ask me jams, but play really old stuff. I often ask them to do something that was popular from after my date of birth. When,  I play they often just sit and listen. A bluegrass jam, I have gone to for years was often fun but very, very repetitive every week and very few wanted to try newer stuff. I was asked to one time jam where the place wanted older country and rock, just to fill in, with two guys, I had never played with and had a great time. We had an awesome night and chemistry and they would just follow me a no matterwhere it went. You never know. I do know that after being sick for two months and not playing out, that my already somewhat sloppy timing had greatly worsened...Not everyone can, wants to or has to play out. Some of the best times are when it is just you and an instrument  you love. Sometimes when the fates are kind, healing and even a song that you come up with is more than enough.

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## bayAreaDude

> I have always heard that, too, and it's appealing and straightforward but I don't think it has actually been 'measured in the brain'. This article has a lot of links to studies and the upshot seems to be that the whole introvert/extrovert concept is a pop culture simplification of a lot of different phenomena.
> 
> This has a lot of good links: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cr...lly-different/


Susan Cain's book is a handy aggregation for the current state of research on this topic including several EEG based studies.  It's not limited to only being around people but even includes things like light and sound which generate stronger responses in both frequency and amplitude of alpha waves and voltage.

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## Mike Arakelian

I think there's room for both "others and yourself".  For years I've used my guitar(s) to play what I'm feeling whether that be happy, depressed or what have you, and I always do that as a "loner" kind of thing.  Now with my mandolin, I find that there are certain kinds of music that I prefer just to play for myself while other music craves for playing with other people.  At times I just want to be alone with my music and at other times I get great satisfaction out of playing with others...go with whichever one satisfies the mood you are in.  :Mandosmiley:

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## SincereCorgi

> Susan Cain's book is a handy aggregation for the current state of research on this topic including several EEG based studies.  It's not limited to only being around people but even includes things like light and sound which generate stronger responses in both frequency and amplitude of alpha waves and voltage.


I'll have to check the Cain book out of the library. It's one of those topics where the idea seem to make sense on a gut level, but I don't know if only seems like that from the inside of Western culture.

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