# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  Vintage Epiphone Mandolin

## gregpost

I am looking for info on this mandolin made by Epiphone.

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## Spruce

Whoa...

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## DataNick

I'm guessing a 70's era made in Japan model...don't enough about them, sorry!

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## Bill Snyder

Hasn't this model been discussed before? Doesn't it date from the 1930's? Model name Windsor perhaps?

Yep,* HERE* is a previous thread.

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## gregpost

Thanks for the reply Bill. I did a search and found one of the threads but the links for the mandozine article were/are dead. I didn't see majicfingers pictures on my first search, so thanks for those. I'm trying to get info for a family member who has this instrument.

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## allenhopkins

Epiphone Windsor Special, vintage 1934-48, if *this EpiphoneWiki article* is accurate.

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## gregpost

Thanks for the link, that's a great resource.

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allenhopkins

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## BradKlein

A rare and valuable mandolin, Greg. I'm sure folks around here would appreciate more photos and any history that you can learn about this instrument.

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## almeriastrings

Because of the 'degrading' of the Epiphone name/legacy as a result of being used on cheap 'copy' instruments, a lot of people these days are not even aware of the superb carved top guitars (in particular) they produced in the 1930's. They were absolutely top line instruments... right through the 50's and early 60's, they were still putting out some beautiful jazz guitars. A lady who had sadly lost her husband asked me to look at his guitar collection not too long back, and he had some fine instruments, and old tube amps - archtop Guild's mostly, a couple of Gibson solid body electrics, and a superb 50's era Epiphone Zephyr Emperor Regent.... she was quite surprised to find out how much they were all worth. Those mandolins are super-rare. It would be incredible to try one!

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## gregpost

I have better than average knowledge about guitars(mostly electrics) and so I'm aware of Epiphone's amazing history. Unfortunately I don't know much about Mandolins, so thanks again for everybody chiming in. This is a pretty great forum!

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## DataNick

My Bad!...Wow, those look great!

I'd love to try either the F model or the 2-point...good luck with it!

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## gregpost

I don't have high quality photos yet. But these show a bit more detail. I have been calling/emailing around trying to find some more info.

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BradKlein, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

William Smith

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## MikeEdgerton

A bunch of threads discussing the Epiphone Windsor can be found *here*.

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## johnl

Beautiful mandolin! The style of the Epiphone name on the headstock looks like the later style I've seen on New York Epi mandolins; so I'd guess that this one is from 1947 or 1948 (assuming that the last year they were made was 1948). Also, the style of the label (blue border, green, white, or gold) can give you an idea as to when it was made. I'm guessing it has the blue border.

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## gregpost

Thanks for the links and info. I read some of these threads upon first joining and searching the forum and they've been helpful. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of info about this model on the internet and whatever there is leads back to this forum, so I'm glad I joined.

 I talked to some vintage dealers and they let me know that from pictures it does appear to be a Epiphone Windsor model that we have and that it is rare and of value to certain collectors. We are going to take better photos, looking for a label/serial number.

 Also found an old Vega mandolin.

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## Joey Anchors

> I am looking for info on this mandolin made by Epiphone.


This is one gorgeous mandolin!

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## allenhopkins

> ...I talked to some vintage dealers and they let me know that from pictures it does appear to be a Epiphone Windsor model that we have and that it is rare and of value to certain collectors... Also found an old Vega mandolin.


_Where_ are you finding these instruments -- and how do I get there?

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## Petrus

> Because of the 'degrading' of the Epiphone name/legacy as a result of being used on cheap 'copy' instruments, a lot of people these days are not even aware of the superb carved top guitars (in particular) they produced in the 1930's. They were absolutely top line instruments... right through the 50's and early 60's, they were still putting out some beautiful jazz guitars.


I didn't know this at all.  I've always lumped Epiphones in with Ibanez and all that other low end stuff one finds at Guitar Center and so forth.  Gonna keep an eye out for them from now on.

BTW, it's been bugging me for years: Is the word pronounced just like it looks (like the final syllable of "telephone") or as a pun on "epiphany?"

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## Jim Garber

Epiphone (last syllable same as tele-phone) named after Epaminondas A. Stathopoulo, the company's president. it was founded by his father as the House of Stathopoulo. They changed the name to Epiphone around 1928.

I have a wonderful, if modest, 1934 Epiphone Spartan archtop guitar.

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## Givson

Epiphone was Gibson's chief competitor in the area of archtop guitars from the 30s to the 50's, and Epiphone carefully designed their guitar models to be a little wider and a little fancier looking than the comparable Gibson model.

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## Joey Anchors

Agreed. Early Epiphones (pre-gibson) were top notch instruments. I wish I had this early Epiphone mando!!

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## William Smith

As far as I know Harry West had one. "He said on his website that he didn't think the other one was for sale either", and he knew of one more! "I'm guessing the Dawg" It is a Windsor awesomely rare. Always wanted to find one of these ever since I was younger when Tone Poems came out and Grisman mentioned he wanted one because I believe it was one of those models that was questionable if it even was in existence!     Man O Man you lucky Dog! Great ya found one but too bad it wasn't ME!

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## William Smith

I forgot to ask is the case a Loar era case? It looks like one to me except handle and latches so maybe early Paganoni case?

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## Jim Garber

I have pics of three other scrolled Windsors in my jpeg files (including Harry West's -- in the red-lined case).  They all seem different from one another. The one with the pickup seems to have extra binding on the scroll.

IMHO the design is a little klunky compared to the Gibson F5. The body proportions are a bit off in comparison to the f-holes (tho the f-holes do seem different on each example) and I find the headstock overly large. Still it is a probably a well-built mandolin. 

I believe that Epiphone entered its mandolin manufacturing on the late side, in the 1930s. The Windsor was originally the two-point version and introduced the scrolled Windsor Special 1934. They eventually dropped the two-point and the scrolled one became the Windsor. They dropped if from the line in 1949.

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BradKlein, 

DataNick, 

William Smith

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## Jeff Mando

[QUOTE=Petrus;1325727]I didn't know this at all.  I've always lumped Epiphones in with Ibanez and all that other low end stuff one finds at Guitar Center and so forth.  Gonna keep an eye out for them from now on./QUOTE]

Yes, and keep in mind pawn shops don't always know this history, either.  My buddy bought a 1961 (USA Gibson made) Epiphone Casino at a pawn shop dirt cheap because they priced it as a recent Chinese import.  At the time, the Casino was worth $3-4K.

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## allenhopkins

*Here's* a somewhat hyped historical article on Epiphone.  Realize it's from the current owners of the name -- Gibson Inc. -- and they're naturally trying to link their current line of Epiphone-labeled Asian imports, to the Stathopoulo-founded company that was one of their strongest competitors in the arch-top guitar market through the 1930's and '40's.  So the "Epiphone passion for excellence" may or may not extend to current Epiphone instruments, IMHO.

Gibson bought Epiphone in 1957, and for 13 years built instruments labeled "Epiphone" in the Kalamazoo facility; basically, Epiphone became a quasi-separate Gibson line.  There were equivalent models: the Epiphone Texan flat-top guitar was a Gibson J-50 with a different label and headstock, _e.g._.  In 1970 Gibson shifted Epiphone production to Japan, and Epiphones have been Asian-made since, as far as I know.

Gibson's been tweaking the Epiphone line frequently in recent years, and Epiphones are not _just_ cheaper Asian-made versions of Gibson models now.  However, there are still many Epiphone "copies" of US-made Gibson guitars being cataloged; Epiphone has *almost every Gibson Les Paul model* covered.

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## Masterbilt

Late to the discussion since I am currently travelling ... Some of you know that I am working on a history research project on vintage Epiphone instruments (pre-1957 era), and recently launched this website: http://wiedler.ch/nyepireg/

I would love to document this historically interesting Windsor model in my Registry Database (which currently includes >2500 instruments): http://wiedler.ch/nyepireg/database.html

Here some info about the mandos:
http://wiedler.ch/nyepireg/models.html#MandoAc

The serial number and type of label would be very interesting to see. To my knowledge the NY  Epiphone company stopped producing f-hole mandolins around 1944. As JohnL has pointed out correctly, the headstock logo on the Windsor in this thread looks indeed later. Looking forward to more info!

Felix

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## Jim Garber

Epiphone's later reputation was due to its devaluation when Gibson bought them out. They were one of Gibson's big competitors esp in the archtop guitar market but by the 1950s were losing it. Gibson bought them out and made Epiphone their 2nd level brand. Later they used it for their imports. Some of the Gibson-made Epiphones are excellent guitars. A friend has a nice flattop, an Epiphone Texan, which is every bit as good as a 1950s Gibson flattop.

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## Joey Anchors

My holly grail mandolin is to find an Epiphone two-point some day. I just love that design so much!

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## gregpost

This instrument was sold to George Gruhn. We could not find a serial number/label. He also bought the Vega mandolin and some other instruments.

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## johnl

Now listed at Gruhn's:
http://guitars.com/inventory/mf8439-...iphone-windsor
I'm curious how they decided on ca 1940.

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## Joey Anchors

Really wish I had the money to buy that!!

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## Jim Garber

Ok, ok... I will preface this by saying that I love Epiphones and root for them always. I have a wonderful oddball Epiphone Spartan archtop guitar that is wonderful and I have owned a few other instruments over the years. 

However... this may be some rare instrument but unless it sounds and plays up to that $15,000 value, personally I am not attracted to it visually. The design seems off-balance to me. Maybe I am so used to the proportions of a Gibson F5 but to me it looks odd. The headtstock is a scaled down one off their Emperor guitar. The scrollwork looks sloppy and both the scroll and the treble point look stunted to my eye. The wood on the back is slab sawn maple.

I know...I know... sour grapes. Of course, if I found one at my local yard sale, you know I would buy it in a flash. However, for that price, not so sure. I hope someone gets down there and plays it and reports back honestly. I wish I could.

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## Jeff Mando

I would like to hear a sound report, also.  If Gruhn says it is one of three he has seen in 50 years, that is saying something to think of all the instruments that have passed through his shop.  I actually like the design, if you can get an F-5 out of one's mind....if it has a 15K sound, it could be a blue chip investment! (sorry, about that...)  You know, a great pick, I mean, err choice!

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## gregpost

I wish I could have kept it and taken up mandolin(wasn't mines to keep). Now I have an interest in an instrument that to be honest I never paid much attention to.

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## Jim Garber

> If Gruhn says it is one of three he has seen in 50 years, that is saying something to think of all the instruments that have passed through his shop.  I actually like the design, if you can get an F-5 out of one's mind.


Rarity doesn't mean much if no one will pay the "rare" price. Gruhn has seen only three but I have (I believe) five examples in my files. 

My prediction is that it will sit around there for quite a while and sell for under $10k. My estimate for value calculating the rarity factor would be more like $7500. 

As for the design, if it were not a vintage instrument and appeared with no name on eBay we would prob make fun of the open scroll and the stumpy points. Just sayin'...

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## BradKlein

That's a pretty severe appraisal, Jim. A lot depends on how this instrument sounds, but there's no arguing with the fact that it's a rare bird from one of the very finest makers of American musical instruments, particularly of carved top instruments in this period. There's really no competition aside from Gibson. And there are plenty of Epi collectors our there. The price seems realistic to me. 

As for the aesthetics of the design I certainly wouldn't throw it out of the jam!

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Jim Garber

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## Jim Garber

Of course, this is only my humblest of opinions.  :Smile: 

As I noted in my first post above, I happen to love Epiphone instruments. My favorite arch top guitar is my lowly Epiphone Spartan. However, Epiphone has been notoriously underrated and undervalued  in the vintage market as compared to Gibson over the years. There is also a reason for rarity which may be that these instruments just did not sell at the time. 

Also, let's put it in perspective. Gruhn is asking the equivalent of the price for a D'Angelico mandolin. It was made in a factory and unless I am not seeing things properly, the workmanship leaves something to be desired. I would still love to hear what someone who has played it thinks. BTW I am attracted to it as an ugly duckling -- after all you have seen the oddballs I have purchased over the years -- but not for that price.

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## Jeff Mando

Great points, Jim.  My point about Gruhn, beside being a known expert for the last 50+ years, has been in a position to see "the best of the best."  I also, see a bunch of instruments every week, but they don't have quality stuff like this at the local pawn shop and flea markets I attend! (when they do, I try to buy them!) My other point about Gruhn, is that he has only seen three in a time period where he has probably seen 50-100 signed Loars (I'm guessing on the number, but gives perspective to what he is saying concerning rarity).

As far as price, sure, Gruhn is in a position to "set" the price and has been for years.  He also brokered one of Buddy Holly's amplifiers a few years ago, a Magnatone, his asking price was over $100,000.  I don't know what it actually sold for, but it was an attention getter, for sure.  OTOH, I had the same model amp and I got $1500 for mine.....(not owned by BH).  There is a famous story overhead by a fly on the wall at Gruhn's when Scott Chinery was spending mega-bucks acquiring his collection--he also wanted the "best of the best".  Gruhn quoted him $50,000 on an instrument that normally went for less than that.  Chinery, said, fine, I'll paid it if you can justify your price!  Gruhn supposedly became indignant and said, I don't have to justify my price!

It is anybody's guess what the mandolin will bring, but I'm sure somebody will have to have it.  I saw a 40's Epiphone mandolin once at a guitar show and wished I had bought it.  Just something cool and a little different from the "normal" stuff one sees.

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Jim Garber

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## Jim Garber

Yes, George can certainly set the price but that doesn't mean that he will get anywhere near that price unless there is a collector of Epiphone instruments out there with very deep pockets. My guess is that he is trawling for the right price -- after all, if he has seen only three of them (and two of them not for sale) then how to determine the price. We will see.

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## BBarton

Not mentioned and perhaps less known by many is that Epiphone and before that House of Stathopoulo were huge in the banjo business in the teens and twenties, competing with Gibson, Bacon & Day, Lange Paramount, Vega and the like during the big-band jazz banjo heyday. The Recording series produced from about 1926 to the mid-thirties were great banjos, which because of their design, solid construction and sound are now much desired by Irish trad players.

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Joey Anchors

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## Masterbilt

Harry West's Epiphone Windsor is offered for sale by his daughter: http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/87044
And the example from this thread still at Gruhn's: http://guitars.com/inventory/mf8439-...iphone-windsor
So currently two on the market...
Felix

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## Jim Garber

Interesting to now see two of these and to see the Gruhn one still there for $15k. Now, that one looks like a bargain. Has anyone here actually played great one? Surely someone has been down to Gruhn's since this thread started.

BTW that Wilkanowski guitar she is also offering is about the fanciest I have ever seen. I never played one tho.

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## Jim Garber

> My prediction is that it will sit around there for quite a while and sell for under $10k. My estimate for value calculating the rarity factor would be more like $7500.


Ah, nice to return to this thread. So, the *Windsor at $15,000 at Gruhn's* is approaching it's 2-year anniversary.

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allenhopkins, 

Joey Anchors

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## Br1ck

> Epiphone's later reputation was due to its devaluation when Gibson bought them out. They were one of Gibson's big competitors esp in the archtop guitar market but by the 1950s were losing it. Gibson bought them out and made Epiphone their 2nd level brand. Later they used it for their imports. Some of the Gibson-made Epiphones are excellent guitars. A friend has a nice flattop, an Epiphone Texan, which is every bit as good as a 1950s Gibson flattop.


I have a 65 Epiphone Texan that will always be with me. Paid every bit as much as a comparable Gibson J 45. It smoked the four sixties J 45s in the store at the same time.
Basically it is a J 45 body with a long scale neck. The arch top guitars are first rate too. Really a shame Gibson turned the name into their import line.

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## soliver

This has been a very interesting thread to read through. I have always only ever know Epiphone for their lackluster reputation of the last 20 years and had no idea that they had a foundation in such fine quality.

Cool stuff for sure!

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## Br1ck

Gibson has just introduced a line of Epiphone arch tops trying to recreate the Epi glory years. They should pay Dave Rawlings royalties.

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Joey Anchors

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## Joey Anchors

If I had the cash I would buy this Epiphone in a heartbeat!

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## Jim Garber

> If I had the cash I would buy this Epiphone in a heartbeat!


Have you (or anyone else) actually played this? I sincerely want to hear form someone that it is an amazing instrument! I cannot believe after all this time that no one of us here has tried this mandolin.

I love Epiphones especially since they were always the underdog compared to Gibson. OTOH I had an opportunity to buy an Epiphone Strand years ago and it just didn't quite cut it for tone or playabiity.

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## Joey Anchors

> Have you (or anyone else) actually played this? I sincerely want to hear form someone that it is an amazing instrument! I cannot believe after all this time that no one of us here has tried this mandolin.
> 
> I love Epiphones especially since they were always the underdog compared to Gibson. OTOH I had an opportunity to buy an Epiphone Strand years ago and it just didn't quite cut it for tone or playabiity.


Sadly I haven't played it. It's a wish list dream for me.

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