# Octaves, Zouks, Citterns, Tenors and Electrics > Tenor Guitars >  Tenor guitar scale length vs mandola scale length

## Roman Pekar

I find it a bit strange that while tenor mandola and tenor guitar supposed to be tuned the same, mandola are usually under 20'' scale (starting probably at 17'') and 20'' tenor guitar is considered as short-scale instrument and 23'' scale length instruments are much more common.

Do you have any idea why is that so?

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## fox

I am not quite sure what you are tying to establish ... they are different instruments that produce completely different sounds? 
23" scale is just about the practical limit of CGDA tuning so maybe the 21" scale was made to avoid the A being near the breaking limit? 
I have never heard of a tenor mandola and apart from a mandola being a big mandolin with the same 8 strings I don't know the history.

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## mandroid

its a parallel to the Violin family .. a mandolin quartet would be 2 mandolins, 1 mandola and a mandocello.

 Europe uses 'tenor mandola' to have its own definition .. that can be looked up.    I'm not there. 

 H scale US term refers to the scale length Gibson uses on their model H Mandolas.

23" scale  very suitable to 'Chicago Tuning'..  DGBE.. 

As would be a Plectrum Banjo.  they @ 26" scale..

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## Charles E.

Like Fox said, they are different instruments all together. The tenor guitar is a hybrid instrument,developed as a crossover instrument for tenor banjo players to get a guitar sound but still have a banjo neck.

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## Roman Pekar

Well, what I meant is - isn't it strange that instruments designed to have the same tuning are so different in scale lengths?

But, of course, early Gibson mandolas probably have to short scale to be tuned CGDA and 23'' scale length tenor guitars are often tuned to low GDAE tuning and, from what I know, A string is really on the edge if tuned CGDA.

Probably they have scale length so different because they developed from the different instruments.

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## s1m0n

It might be an influence from the violin family, although I'm also not sure what you mean by 'tenor mandola'.

A standard viola is a deeply compromised instrument. An accoustically perfect viola would be a much larger instrument, as can be easily seen by the difference in size between it and the cello, the next-largest size. The compromises are driven by what fingers can do. I assume that Orville Gibson's mandola design, a conscious imitation of viola, perpetuated this compromise, and the size stuck.

Tenor Banjo (and TG after it, as the latter is a development of the former) arrived at its scale length by a different process, and is likelier closer to accoustically correct.

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## Chip Stewart

In the world of bass there are far greater differences in scale lengths to produce the same notes (EADG).  The following is a list of example bass instruments that are tuned EADG and their corresponding scale lengths.

21.0 inches - U Bass
28.6 inches - Mikro Bass Guitar
30.0 inches - Short Scale Bass Guitar
32.0 inches - Medium Scale Bass Guitar
34.0 inches - Long Scale Bass Guitar
38.0 inches - 1/2 Scale Upright Bass
41.3 inches - 3/4 Scale Upright Bass
43.3 inches - 4/4 Scale Upright Bass

The scale length of the 4/4 Scale Upright Bass is more than twice that of the U Bass, but they both produce the same notes.  Scale length alone is not the determining factor.  The combination of scale length and string size is what matters.  As an example, the typical E string size for a long scale bass guitar is 0.095 while the E string size on my short scale bass guitar is 0.108.  In order to achieve similar string tension with a shorter scale length the string size needs to increase.  If the mandola has larger strings than a 23 inch scale tenor guitar then the string tensions would be similar when tuned to the same notes.

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## Charles E.

A Mandola with a 23" scale length would be a Mandocello, no?    :Wink:

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## s1m0n

You get a lot more flexibility with amplification, when short, fat floppy strings that sound like rubber bands accoustically can via the magic of the pickup produce phat bass notes. I take your point, but I'm not sure that all the examples shorter than 'accoustic bass guitar' are directly comparable to TG and mandola, both of which have to have strings long enough to shift enough air to get heard in at least a medium sized room with no amp. The top half of your chart can't be heard from more than 20 feet away, unplugged.

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fox

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## Roman Pekar

Ok I got it, my confusion came from not enough knowledge, now I see that standard mandola strings are thicker than tenor guitar ones, that's why scale length difference

Thanks you guys, always helpful  :Smile:

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fox

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## fox

To be honest most of my guitar playing friends don't have a clue about string gauges or scale lenths or in fact have any interest in such matters! 
I really enjoy messing around with different tunings and experimenting with single strings ect but it is not everybody's interest!

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## sturob

So, if you had a 23"-scale tenor guitar, would a good "standard" tuning to use be CGDA?  

I've got a tenor, and when I started (from guitar) I messed around with DGBE, but now that I've had the mandolin-family bug, I'm thinking fifths would be more fun . . .

Stuart

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## fox

CGDA and GDAE are the two most popular.

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## jaycat

I have an old Yamaha guitar which I've strung up as a sort of tenor guitar/faux octave mandolin. The scale length is 24" and it is tuned GDAE.

Do not expect to be able to play mandolin chords or easily make the reaches you are used to on mandolin with this scale length.

I wonder what the "standard" scale length is for an octave mandolin??

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## SincereCorgi

> Do not expect to be able to play mandolin chords or easily make the reaches you are used to on mandolin with this scale length.


Yup. And, for that matter, I feel like tenor banjo technique doesn't transfer well to tenor guitar either. The difference in string tension and timbre makes them extremely different animals.

I used to want a shorter scale tenor, thinking it would let me use my mandolin skills more, but I appreciate it a lot now as its own instrument. It's changed my approach to mandolin enormously, in a good way, by making me jump around the neck a lot more and getting a lot of chromatic moves into my playing that don't occur as naturally on a mandolin scale.

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## mandroid

My Picking buddy  has an Irish bouzouki  it is like a banjo scale  (uses same Case)
 fitted with light gage strings   in GDAE..  one of the set options is to octave pair the G & D  strings. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_bouzouki

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## RussianDragon

> Well, what I meant is - isn't it strange that instruments designed to have the same tuning are so different in scale lengths?
> 
> But, of course, early Gibson mandolas probably have to short scale to be tuned CGDA and 23'' scale length tenor guitars are often tuned to low GDAE tuning and, from what I know, A string is really on the edge if tuned CGDA.
> 
> Probably they have scale length so different because they developed from the different instruments.


I'm not sure what is meant about the A string being "on the edge" at 23" scale and CGDA tuning. At that scale a .009 string is at 19 lbs pressure, a .0085 is about 17 lbs and an .008 is only at 15lbs pressure.

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## fox

All those strings are easy to break when tuned to pitch at 23" scale. 
I, like most people, like to use a similar tension for all four strings. If you used a .008 for the A then matching 15lb for the other strings would make the instrument awful to play.
.010 sounds just right when tuned to pitch on a 23" scale & you can match the other stings to get a fantastic overall sound.
However the .010 will be near the limit of it breaking strain so you have to be gentle while getting it in tune but they can still last well once there.

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## RussianDragon

Not so awful. The matching tension for an .008 string at A4 would be .028 and LaBella offers a popular tenor string set with a .027 for C3.  I've heard some old Martins that sound great with the LaBella set.  I'm with you and I like an even tension across the neck (I use a 9-32 set) but we are probably the exceptions. Most (by a wide margin) packaged guitar string sets have much wider variation in tension across the course of strings.  And while an .010 might sound great on your tenor, other instruments might sound better with an .0095 a .009, .0085 or even an 8 string. D It also depends on how the player attacks the strings. YMMV.

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## fox

> I'm not sure what is meant about the A string being "on the edge" at 23" scale and CGDA tuning. At that scale a .009 string is at 19 lbs pressure, a .0085 is about 17 lbs and an .008 is only at 15lbs pressure.


I could not find the post I was looking for, but somewhere on here, there are some figures suggesting that a .010 has a breaking strain of 25 lb or about 1lb above pitch and a .009 breaks around 20lb or about 1lb above pitch etc... However the lighter strings have an even shorter life than the standard .010 due to being weaker ?
This is a similar situation to using .010 super lights on a six string as the high E is near breaking strain as is a standard .012 but the 10s break far sooner than the 12s?

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## Explorer

> I'm not sure what is meant about the A string being "on the edge" at 23" scale and CGDA tuning. At that scale a .009 string is at 19 lbs pressure, a .0085 is about 17 lbs and an .008 is only at 15lbs pressure.


You may or may not know this, but a string on a guitar with a 25.5" scale length will break when tuned up to around G#4. If the string is thinner, it's weaker. If the string is thicker, it's stronger, but requires more tension to get to G#4. G#4 is the pitch where those factors converge.

The breaking point for a string at 24.07", just one fret up, is around A4. 

The breaking point for a string at 22.71', one fret up from that, is A#4. 

So, at 23", you're not right at the breaking point, but on the edge of that breaking point. 

On a different forum, where members routinely push the limits, there is a topic where all attempts to fight with the physics get placed. Over the years there have been many arguments that the physics don't apply, and practical attempts where people spend their money on strings and start tuning them up to see how long they last. 

I do think a 23"string tuned to A4 will last as long as the playyer treats it gently, don't use heavy picks, don't dig in, etc.

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## Roman Pekar

While doing some research about the topic I've also found interesting instrument - Gibson tenor lute. It's kind of mandola, but with tenor guitar (or, more correct, tenor banjo) scale length. Looks like cross-breed between mandola and tenor banjo.

I've tried a few mandolas and personally I can't say I like 16-17 scale length, but I'd love to try one of this longer scale tenor lutes.

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## Verne Andru

I've found tuning the high A on my Harmony tenor can lead to a lot of broken strings. But, I came about a method that seems to work. It may just be my imagination, but here's what I do.

I start tuning up the instrument as normal. I'll push the A string until it starts to feel tight, but still isn't to pitch - maybe down 3 or 4 semi-tones [F#-G]. With the other strings tuned to their proper pitches, I'll leave the guitar for 5 or so minutes, then tune it up a bit more, and leave it sit again.

Doing this tuning, resting thing 3 or 4 times, I find the string comes to and holds pitch without breaking.

I think it has something to do with the vibrations going on while tuning creating heat, which makes the string more susceptible to breaking. Leaving the instrument sit for a few minutes would allow the strings to settle and any heat that may have built up to dissipate.

Or I could be right out to lunch.

But after breaking a lot of strings by not stopping, and not breaking any with this method, I thought it worth tossing out there for others to try.

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## dburtnett

I use Verne's "sneak up on it" gradual method too. I usually leave it in CGDG and play for a while along the way, which is a nice side benefit.

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## Verne Andru

The "sneak up on it" tuning method. I like that!

I think this underscores the fact that 23" tenor guitars are too long a scale for what we're trying to get out of them. Sure, it can and does work, but it's pushing the extreme edge of what the tech can support.

IMHO the ideal scale length for tenor guitar is 21".

Why more are not made in that scale is a testament to entrenched dogma more than anything else.

Just cause it was "done in the day" doesn't mean they knew what they were doing because in many cases, they didn't have a clue!

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