# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  John Duffey - controversial stage persona?

## tiltman

Hey There,

I've read over the years that sometimes John Duffey could be...um,...controversial on stage.  I'm wondering if anyone who had the pleasure of seeing him in person could share some stories of what he was like.

Thanks,

Kirk

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## Rroyd

I don't know that the word "controversial" would be an appropriate description.  It has been said that he did not suffer fools lightly, but I recall only quick witted retorts to audience members, sometimes with a hint of sarcasm, but they always struck me as having a humorous tone.  I should say, however, that I only saw him perform in person 12 or 15 times, and I have heard rumors that he could be a bit caustic.

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## sunburst

He could come out with some audacious stuff sometimes, from some of the stories I've heard, but I think my favorite was at an outdoor concert, probably around 1980. There was an area where a group of people was "dancing", actually more like drunkenly stomping the ground. One particularly drunk and sloppy guy climbed the steps onto the stage, stepped right up to the mic and slurred to the audience: "I wanna know why all of you are sitting on your asses and not up here dancing!!". John Duffy said to him: "Why, are you Arthur Murry?". John went on to say to him "Maybe they just want to sit there and _listen_."
The guy was quickly, and rather roughly removed from the stage by the uniformed officers in attendance.

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DataNick

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## jim simpson

I had the pleasure of seeing John quite a number of times over the years. He was a big guy!  Got to see the Scene at the Birchmere once. Different atmosphere as it was a club rather than a festival stage. It was also their weekly home base. There seemed to be some interesting exchanges between John and one or two of the band members - that was entertaining.

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## Andy B

I was a Birchmere regular 30 years ago and I loved the Seldom Scene.  John Duffey was a powerhouse musically, both on the mandolin and vocally.  His sense of humor was his own.

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## journeybear

I saw him with Seldom Scene several times, always at festivals. Never thought of him as controversial. Apart from a tendency toward corny jokes (some of them were real groaners), the most egregious part of his stage presence was his choice in clothes, particularly pants. The ones in jim's photo are pretty tame for him.  :Wink:  If the BGPD want to take issue with that, for being not in keeping with classic bluegrass dress codes - well, can't argue with that, but don't care either. Didn't seem to affect his playing a bit.  :Mandosmiley:

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John McKernan

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## allenhopkins

Believe he was heard to say once, to a talky audience: "Lotta chit-chat here tonight; let's cut the chit out."

I found an *ibluegrass.com article* that references Duffey's "outrageous stage antics" without being specific.  Perhaps we can get some more anecdotal evidence...?

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lukmanohnz

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## Mandolin Mick

This photo's hanging in the Bluegrass Museum in Owensboro.  :Smile:

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BradKlein

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## AlanN

To a randy couple at a show:

You squirm much more like that, you're gonna cause a problem.

I met JD once, at the Waterloo festival in Stanhope, NJ, 1981. I had my A-40 with me, sheepishly went up to him at a break and handed it to him. He put down his *cup* just long enough to whack on it a bit, then handed it back. I slinked away.

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## Rush Burkhardt

When comparing John to the traditional BG front-man, he would seem controversial. Definitely, a large, over-the-top, personality. He was an entertainer and often, to keep the audience entertained, he may have offended some audience members, used to the calm, humble demeanor of the typical bluegrass band member! He was unique - and that's a good thing! His talents - his creative mandolin playing and his tremendous tenor voice - are missed...at least by me!

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stevedenver

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## journeybear

He was the Clown Prince of bluegrass. I seriously doubt anyone else could get away with what he did there with Bill Monroe's hat! And rbvintage sums him up very well - he was an entertainer as well as a fine musician, one of the best front men in the history of bluegrass.

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## Perry

Was it John D. who had the wry quote:

_"We don't have much fun playing this bluegrass music but we sure do make a lot of money!"_

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## AlanN

His schtick on stage was hard to take, at times, particularly as he got older. But, in the studio and on record - even the early live CG shows where he wasn't quite the sarcastic/ornery showman, yet -, he was the man. The Scene albums, all of them so very great, displayed his musical breadth and talent to no end. ACT II I think is the ultimate, for perfect vocal harmony, tune selection/arranging and low-key styling. Reason For Being is a magnificent (Hi, John...) number.

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## sunburst

> Was it John D. who had the wry quote:
> 
> _"We don't have much fun playing this bluegrass music but we sure do make a lot of money!"_


I think that was Charlie Waller, who also said; "I'd like to say that this is one of my favorite songs... but... I can't say that...".

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DataNick, 

Timbofood

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## fatt-dad

He would make some comment like, "we're going to take a break now 'cause the drugs are wearing off."  It just seemed so out of character, 'cause nobody would have considered them as pot heads or drug users, but the audience would usually respond to such a comment.

f-d

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## D C Blood

Allen-The "chit-chat" remark was generally said by Eddie Adcock...,John was not what you could call "politically correct".  A good part of his repartee consisted of "gay" spoofs.
e.g. Big Bad Bruce... :Disbelief:

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## tiltman

> I found an ibluegrass.com article that references Duffey's "outrageous stage antics" without being specific. Perhaps we can get some more anecdotal evidence...?


That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.  I've run across the same sort of statement in Bluegrass Unlimited...

Thanks for the stories and please keep them coming.

Kirk

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## re simmers

The best front man in bluegrass.....prior to Steve Martin.    Duffey was 'Johnny Carson with a mandolin.'    His humor was usually up to date with what was going on in the world, plus he was more quick-witted than any of the Hee Haw hecklers in the front row of any venue.     He had unbelievable energy in his voice and stage presence, and, as Jethro Burns said, "....muscles in his pick."   The man commanded attention.   Today, at her few rare appearances, Alison Krauss will silence a crowd when she starts to sing some beautiful slow ballad.   It was the same when Duffey stepped up to the mike......speaking or singing.

A memorable story: Many yrs ago, after the Jimmy Swaggart story, Duffey closed out a show at a festival by saying, "we'll close with this gospel selection.   We asked Jimmy Swaggart to sing along, but he said, no thanks, I'll just watch."      (If you don't remember the incident, google Swaggart) 

Bob

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stevedenver

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## fatt-dad

I think there was a time in John's early life when there was some calling to sing opera.  He had a voice!

f-d

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## sunburst

He was an opera singer's son, but I don't think he ever "got the call".

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## Willie Poole

I knew John real well and a lot of stories about him, like any star, were not always quoted properely......John came across as a concieted person, and on stage that is what he wanted but in real life away from bluegrass he was a down to earth as anyone I ever knew...In his early playing years he sought perfection from other band members and when he became more of a star he just loved to have fun, sometimes at others expense but it was all in good fun and most people knew that, if he really got anyones goat it is because they didn`t know him real well, people that followed him through the years knew his demeanor and took it all as good fun..

   I told one of his short jokes at a show that my band did last year and some lady got all bent out of shape and I really had a tough time explaining the punch line to her....I still use the line about not having any fun playing the music but making a lot of money...I guess I picked that up from the Country Gents somewhere along the way...

    To sum it up, John was a pussy cat in lions clothes.... I miss him as much as anyone...What a great loss to the bluegrass field........

     Willie

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## TEE

Some good stuff here from band members and others...

http://www.seldomscene.com/fr_johnduffey.cfm

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## swampstomper

I saw the Scene many times over the Duffey years. I do remember once when the band was delayed for their portion of a festival show, I am fairly sure they were the evening's closing act (GreyFox in the old hillside location?? 1982?? memory is fading....) so they were about an hour later than scheduled. The band came on and Duffey checked out his mike, and said to the audience something like "Well, I hope this goes OK because we took our uppers right on time... y'all will forgive us if we go catatonic about half-way through".

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## Ivan Kelsall

I stayed over in Alexandria for 2 nights prior to flying back to the UK in '92.The Birchmere was close to where i was staying & so it was a 'must see'. Tony Rice was guesting that evening & i got to talk to all the SS & with TR as well. Apart from JD's 'PJ pants',there was nothing unusual about him that i can remember noticing.On stage it seemed to me that he was the driving force behind the band & boy did they need it. He said that they'd been playing the Birchmere for 13 years - it showed. I have to say  with all due respect,that they sounded tired.They must have played the same songs etc.until they got sick of them.However,they were consumately professional & i'll never forget seeing them. I still have a Birchmere menu in my desk drawer,
                                                                                                                                                    Ivan

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## AlanN

Two Giants

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## Spruce

Two Giants and uhhhh...

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djweiss, 

Marty Henrickson, 

michaelcj, 

stevedenver

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## re simmers

Spruce,  THAT picture is priceless.   Where did it come from?   What's the story?

Bob

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## sunburst

What's the story? That picture tells a story better than any description of the event possibly could! :Laughing:

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## fatt-dad

. . . and then there was, "the Duck."

f-d

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## Mandolin Mick

Another from the Bluegrass Museum ... actually, Bill and John look like they were separated at birth here ...  :Wink:

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## Spruce

> Spruce,  THAT picture is priceless.   Where did it come from?   What's the story?


Ironically, it just showed up on Bookface today....
No idea on the backstory...
Or backstage-after-the-show story...    :Wink:

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## mandolirius

> Ironically, it just showed up on Bookface today....
> No idea on the backstory...
> Or backstage-after-the-show story...


I recall reading about that incident somewhere. I think it was at Bean Blossom. From what I understand it was another battle in a long but good-natured war between Monroe and Duffey.

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## mandopete

Wow, no lockdown yet...this Mandolin Cafe has come a long ways in 10 years!

Great thread and love the photo above.  I know it was said that John Duffey was one of the very few people who could kid around with Bill Monroe.

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## fredfrank

I heard a story that a festival promoter called John to get the Scene to a festival in California. When he told John they could pay $10,000, John asked: "Which one of us do you want?"

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## JeffD

Wow.

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## AlanN

> I heard a story that a festival promoter called John to get the Scene to a festival in California. When he told John they could pay $10,000, John asked: "Which one of us do you want?"


Heard the same story, but like the proverbial one that got away, the $$ get bigger and bigger over the years....

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## Spruce

> Heard the same story, but like the proverbial one that got away, the $$ get bigger and bigger over the years....


Yeah, that's rock n' roll money....

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## ralph johansson

The picture is from a festival and the song is most likely Can't You Hear Me Calling. You can read about in Smith's bio.

I met John a couple of times when I needed repair work on my mandolin. He was very friendly and professional. I also met him at a picking party at Dianne Sims's house in Silver Springs, Md. Dianne Sims in those days was the editor of Bluegrass Unlimited. Bill Emerson, Cliff Waldron, and Tom Gray were there, too and we jammed in the garden. John spent the whole night just talking to Dianne and her husband. He had left the Gentlemen a few months earlier but subbed two nights for Gaudreau on a gig near DC. I was fortunate to be there. That was the high point of my trip to the U.S. He was one of very few players in thos days to have his mandolin slung around his neck. One of his favorite ploys was to play a very wild mandolin solo and on finishing just drop the instrument. The Gentlemen did some fantastic show numbers like Cripple Creek, simulating an LP played at half speed in the beginning.

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## Alex Orr

> What's the story? That picture tells a story better than any description of the event possibly could!


Based on the story in _Can't You Hear Me Calling_, both Duff and Monroe were going for the same high harmony line and Duff reached over and put his hand over Monroe's mic, in effect silencing him.  From what I recall, Richard Smith basically said the relationship between the two was initially somewhat frigid on Monroe's end, and perhaps a bit antagonistically competitive on Duffey's, but it quickly evolved into one of mutual respect and friendship (I say mutual because Duffey always had the utmost respect and admiration for Monroe, but Monroe...well...it seems you had to earn his respect on his terms).  Smith, as best as I recall, also noted that Monroe let Duffey get away with things that he would have not tolerated in the slightest from other folks.  In music, I've always had the notion that to truly get away with being a jester onstage, you need the musical chops to back it up, otherwise, you're a buffoon who grows tiresome quickly.  My guess is that also held true with Monroe: if you were going to try some of the playful jests around him that Duffey supposedly pulled, you better be one hell of picker and a singer.

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## tiltman

> Wow, no lockdown yet...this Mandolin Cafe has come a long ways in 10 years!


Right?  I was a little nervous starting this tread because I didn't want to start any "controversy"... :Grin: 

Kirk

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## TonyP

The first bluegrass fester I ever went to was Strawberry in '85. And it was because the Scene, Grisman Quintet and New Grass Revival were going to be there. My friends son disappeared and the next thing we see him(I think he was 11) he's back stage with the bands and he and John are throwing the football back and forth!

When John came on everything seemed great. One of my favorite lines he used to say and I still use it today is " well bless your hearts and all vital organs" in between songs. There was so many funny things that went on like one of the guys introduced John as the singing barber because of those shirts he used to wear. 

But things got pretty tense when John asked the soundman to fix something, and I guess it either didn't get fixed or got worse. It was like seeing Don Rickles go after someone, funny but pretty scary too. Finally the soundmen( front of house and the stage monitor tech) both just left. Even though the system was like rock concert size, John could get away from his vocal mic and you could hear his ringing tenor just fine. His voice literally was echoing off the mountains. Amazing. We lost a lot when we lost John Duffy.

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## Paul Kotapish

I saw Duffy quite a few times in the early '70s, and although he had a lively stage persona and clearly loved to poke fun at folks, I never heard him say--or saw him do--anything that was out of bounds. Certainly not in comparison with what came out of Jimmy Martin's mouth or from Birch Monroe at some of the same festivals. Yikes!

His playing was always engaging and often surprising, although I wasn't that familiar with mandolin at the time. His singing was the thing that got my attention, though. Man, he could blow the roof off the place and shake the acorns down when the roof was gone. 

At my first bluegrass festival I saw Duffy play the Duck few sets in, following an old-time act with an A model, another band with an F-4, and another with an F-5. To me, at that point, they were all pretty exotic, and when Duffy came out with his quirky hatchet, I just figured that it was the thing for every mandolin player to have a different, weird-shaped instrument. Took another festival or two to figure out that I had witnessed an exception to the rule.

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## Mike Bunting

I'm familiar with the Jimmy Martin stories but what's the scoop on Birch Monroe?  :Smile:

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## Paul Kotapish

> I'm familiar with the Jimmy Martin stories but what's the scoop on Birch Monroe?


He was certainly dignified and gentlemanly in many respects, but his stage patter depended heavily on overtly racist jokes with slurs that were hard to take and never raised much of a giggle from the decidedly white, rural audience of 40 years ago. I know he was raised in a different time and--in many ways--a different culture, but I found it really obnoxious and completely unnecessary.

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## Andy Alexander

It seems that John Duffey was in a grocery store in the DC area and was asked by a women shopper who recognized him, "aren't you John Duffey".  He replied, "That's right lady, I got to eat too!" and walked away.  Classic.

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## journeybear

> Two Giants and uhhhh...


... some big galoot!

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## mrbook

I saw a concert in the early 80s (or maybe the 70s) with the Seldom Scene and Bill Monroe (with Mac Wiseman opening). The Scene did their set, and during Monroe's show Duffy came out with a push broom, cigarette hanging from his lip, and walked up and bumped into Monroe, telling him to get out of the way so he could clean up. Hijinks ensued. Monroe was pretty intense and serious at that time, and I saw other well known musicians become quiet in his presence, but not Duffy. I was stunned, and didn't think anyone could do that to Monroe, but it was funny. I wasn't quite sure of Monroe's reaction - he seemed a bit surprised - but they seemed to be having fun with it.

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## Spruce

> I saw a concert in the early 80s (or maybe the 70s) with the Seldom Scene and Bill Monroe (with Mac Wiseman opening). The Scene did their set, and during Monroe's show Duffy came out with a push broom, cigarette hanging from his lip, and walked up and bumped into Monroe, telling him to get out of the way so he could clean up. Hijinks ensued. Monroe was pretty intense and serious at that time, and I saw other well known musicians become quiet in his presence, but not Duffy. I was stunned, and didn't think anyone could do that to Monroe, but it was funny. I wasn't quite sure of Monroe's reaction - he seemed a bit surprised - but they seemed to be having fun with it.


Are _we_ positive that Mr. Duffy died of natural causes?  

 :Disbelief:

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## Tim

Perhaps close to what the OP was asking happened at a show in the early 90s.  JD asked for a change from the lighting guy and the response was slow.  He implied the guy hadn't seen his girlfriend in a while and was masturbating.

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## Tim Pike

Check out about the 2:00 mark on...

http://youtu.be/zdBpBehEAJ0

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## Rob Parnell

Many thanks Tim Pike for posting http://youtu.be/zdBpBehEAJ0
I live in Canberra, Australia and saw the Seldom Scene at the Birchmere in 1992. I was travelling from the New Orleans Jazz & Heritage Festival up to visit friends in Rhode Island. So to say I was primed would be correct. We met a guy called Dusk at the festival and he invited us to stay in Washington, which we did. He took us to the Birchmere and I have held the memory of John playing the mandolin on that night all these years. He was dressed in a colorful outfit that you would not describe as subdued.  Some of the colors matched. I remember Mike Auldridge was on dobro and if memory serves me well Norman Blake was a guest player. However it was Johns performance that is the cornerstone of that memory. He was so entertaining, a real force of nature. Ben Eldridge is correct when he says John pushed the envelope.
Ive just received a copy in the mail of Jonathon Edwards & The Seldom Scene from 1988. John Duffey on mandolin. I cant wait to crack it.
Does anyone know Dusk? He used to do a typed music rave that he would post out. His wifes name was Dawn and he changed his name for sweet reasons. He would be all over social media if he were still alive. Ive tried to find him there but no luck.
I love this forum and the discussion re that photo of John shielding Bill Monroes microphone.

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## AlanN

That album  - The Seldom Scene with J. Edwards - was quite the event. Duffey's tenor on Sunshine go away today was piercing. I think there may have been a 2nd LP, if memory serves. John passed away the same year as Monroe, didn't he? A life cut short by poor choices.

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## Denny Gies

My wife and I got to see the Seldom Scene a couple of times.  We both thought John was a great entertainer and never did or said anything that we thought was controversial or inappropriate.  We also got to meet him and spent some time with the band back stage...he seemed to be genuine and a nice guy.

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## Willie Poole

Danny, John did say some things that some people took the wrong way, all of his "put downs" were done in a jokingly manner but not everyone took them that way, you can`t please everyone all of the time...I have even seen times when his own band members were thrown back by what he said but they soon realized that he was just joking...a lot of it depended on where and who he was playing for, he was dead serious when playing at The White house for instance....

   Have you ever heard his take off on "Big Bad John"? He called it "Big Bad Bruce"  if not, google it and see if it is on there, now some stations wouldn`t play that cut and some took it the wrong way and I can understand that...

     One thing he did do and that was enjoy picking that mandolin, and of course, bowling, I almost forgot about that, I spent quite a bit of time with him at a bowling alley...

       Willie

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## Timbofood

No press is bad press!its fairly clear that we all have special spots for Mr. Duffey. I have told my Jhn Duffey story before so I won't plow through it again now. Suffice to say, he treated me very kindly, I did not know him well but, miss him.

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## chris.burcher

I can't help but chime in on this one.  For whatever reason, I was drawn to Duffey when i first started playing mandolin.  I was a Tony Rice guitar head and was pulled for years to mandolin, finally giving in and considering myself primarily a mandolin player.  It was an odd combination of grisman, sam bush, and john duffey that changed my ways.  I was a huge Scene head, getting to see them close to 100 times in the 'reincarnated' John Starling era in the 90s with T. Michael Coleman on bass.  

I guess it was their harmonies that drew me in, but as a budding mandolin player I watched and listened to Duffey a lot.  I think he really 'shaped' me as a player, in large part subconsciously, and probably led to a lot of my sloppy habits.  But he also provided an example to have fun and explore craziness on the mandolin.  His style is so interesting and perplexing, I used to ask myself, "is he a genius, or is he just not that good".  Of course, he was exceptionally talented but he often played pretty sloppy for reasons known only to him, I guess.  Either way, it was interesting to have my style be influenced in so many ways by him.  In the era of crazy Thile clones, maybe we need a little more John Duffey. 

I don't remember if I read this, heard a rumor, or heard him say it, but when asked about practicing he replied "I open my case when the man opens his wallet."

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Drew Egerton, 

stevedenver

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## Willie Poole

Chris, That sounds like John....One time a promoter in California called and asked if The Scene would come out and appear on his festival, he told John that he had $2500, and John said "Which one of us do you want"...A true story...he did play for the money but when he made a repair for a friend most of the time it was "no charge", there are a lot of things about John that most people don`t know, they judge him by what they have seen on the stage...Two different people....

    Willie

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## Timbofood

I came into John Duffey the same way Chris, " He's either a genius or, totally nuts!"  I loved his power, he was great. My wife gave me the CD of "The Rebel Years", it hasn't yet gotten out of the player in the car, it's a great collection!

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## Mandoplumb

I don't call Duffy's playing sloppy. It is less precise than Thile, but that is style not sloppy. Duffy couldn't play like Thile but Thile couldn't play like Duffy, their approach is so different and I think each is a master of his style. Which is better? A matter of opinion,I could listen to Duffy all day long, about two numbers from Thile and I'm hunting something.else to listen to, your opinion could be opposite.

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## f5joe

I first met John in 1981 in D.C. at a show.  He actually took his entire break between sets to sit with me and discuss mandolin.  I asked if he ever considered writing a method book.  He laughed and said he just "plays at" the mandolin.  He was very modest.

Got to spend more time with him over the years.  He was quite the kidder/teaser, sarcastic guy.  Just my kind.  Miss him a lot.

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## Jeff Hildreth

"...,I could listen to Duffy all day long, about two numbers from Thile and I'm hunting something.else to listen to, your opinion could be opposite. "

I am also in that camp.

I have saved a very few Bluegrass recordings, Seldom scene among them.

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## Andy B

I am also a big fan of John Duffey's music.  His instantly recognizable voice and powerful tenor, as well as his innovative vocal arrangements, defined the vocal sound of the the Country Gentlemen and the Seldom Scene.  He was a mandolin innovator starting in the late 50s.  His powerful melodic kickoffs, often featuring his stinging tremolo, made him, as David Grisman said, an expert at setting tunes in motion with his mandolin. One of his most famous mandolin pieces was the Gentlemen's version of "The World is Waiting For The Sunrise" recorded early on.  The last time I saw John Duffey with the Scene at Winterhawk in 1994, they played "Sunrise" and there was nothing sloppy about his picking--just really inspired music.

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## Timbofood

Let's face it, for some of us John Duffey was "Da Man!"

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stevedenver

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## dbilello

All this John Duffey talk is making me thirsty!

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Timbofood

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## AlanN

Duffey had a wonderful chop and a very good tremble. Before Bush, Dawg, Statman, there was John. He was the father of newgrass mandolin. When I was first starting out, his playing on those Country Gentlemen tunes like Katy Dear, Make Me A Pallet, 500 Miles, etc. really excited me.

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Glassweb

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## Willie Poole

Like Alan says, If you want to hear the real Duffey just listen to his early recordings with the country Gents.  Alan sent me a CD of their music for 25 years and the early Duffey mandolin is "the real stuff", when he played "Sloppy" it was when he trying to be funny on stage.....I took an A-50 mandolin to him once to have him look at it and asked what he could do to improve it and after he played it he told me that some repairmen would take it and just sit it on a shelf and and do nothing to it and then charge me a tidy sum, he said it sound great the way it was and played it for about an hour and just smiled and told me I had a good one and to not do anything to it...I don`t think he cared about getting rich repairing instruments that didn`t need anything done to them, seems that a lot of repairmen should be that honest...

   One thing about him though in his later years is that would not show you any of his "fancy licks" because he said he just played what came to mind and didn`t think about it very much....He`s gone and I miss him..a lot...

     Willie

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