# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Snakehead H-2 mandola?

## blidgood

Looking around on the cafe, I've found that folks here aren't aware of any extant Gibson-made snakehead mandolas.  I realize that this ground has been covered, but I want to raise the question again :Has anyone else turned up news of mandolas with the snakehead headstock shape?  I've recently become aware of the mando-viola that Loar made, etc.  (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...do-Viola-70321) that makes this possibility seem at least remotely likely.  Is there a possibility that someone might have custom-ordered a snakehead mandola to complement their similarly-headstocked-mandolin?

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## mrmando

I wouldn't stay up late worrying about it.

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Glassweb

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## goaty76

Never say never but until you see one I wouldn't think there are any out there. 


Phil

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## Gail Hester

I don't think Gibson ever made one but they should have.  Here's one that I'm working for a customer.

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Clement Barrera-Ng, 

DataNick, 

Dobe, 

Mandocarver, 

Mike Black, 

Paul Statman, 

pheffernan

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## Skip Kelley

Nice work, Gail! I'd like to see more pictures!

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## MikeEdgerton

Interesting. There are none in the archive with images.

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/...olas_cellos:1:

By the way Gail, nice work.

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## blidgood

The institution where I work received an instrument donation, some older axes of various kinds and qualities.  Along with this beauty, which looks to be a 1924-ish snakehead, with "H2" printed on the label. 
What do _we_make of this?  I'd love to hear from folks!

 
Apologies for the quick and dirty images, will work on figuring out how to get better quality images posted here.

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Bob Bass, 

Dobe, 

Paul Statman

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## goaty76

Wow. That was quick.

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## MikeEdgerton

Could you submit the pictures and the serial number and FON to the Mandolin Archive? Like I said, there are none with pictures. The serial might already be there.

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/contact.shtml

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## MikeEdgerton

Look at the headblock through the sound hole. Are there numbers stamped on it? That would be the Factory Order Number (FON). That should show up in Joe Spann's Gibson book along with a shipping date.

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## jim simpson

> The institution where I work received an instrument donation, some older axes of various kinds and qualities.  Along with this beauty, which looks to be a 1924-ish snakehead, with "H2" printed on the label. 
> What do _we_make of this?  I'd love to hear from folks!
> 
> 
> Apologies for the quick and dirty images, will work on figuring out how to get better quality images posted here.


I want to work at your institution, lol!

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## allenhopkins

Would be a great find -- and I know you can't tell a whole lot from a single picture -- but size-wise, doesn't this look more like an *A-2* than an *H-2?*  Sorta going by the hand size of the person holding it...

Could the "A" in "A-2" be partially obscured/erased, making it look like an "H"?  The Gibson factory batch records should tell us how many mandolas were built during the "snakehead" period.

Hope my skepticism's unfounded, as a snakehead H-2 would be a wonderful discovery.

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## MikeEdgerton

That's a mandolin pickguard on a mandola body. I'm pretty sure it's an H.

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allenhopkins

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## Glassweb

from the pic it looks like an A4 size body but the end of the fingerboard is not the typical A4 extension... more like a mandola extension. have never seen the like before! if it does turn out to be a mandola that will indeed be a "first". ya never know...
Tom, Darryl, Ken... what sayeth ye good men?

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## mrmando

Well, there's always the possibility that someone did a conversion job: start with a paddlehead mandola, plug the tuner holes, reshape headstock, cover it all up with a new headplate and back veneer, and redrill. 

Our experts will want a real close look at that headstock, front and back, particularly the logo inlay. It looks fairly well done but I don't have the expertise to declare it authentic or inauthentic.  

The tuners appear to be an example of the "coffee-colored" buttons that appear on some high-end snakehead mandolins from the Loar period. The pickguard bracket is a replacement and part of the pickguard itself is broken. 

If it's an authentic, factory-made, custom-ordered snakehead H2 it'll be worth some coin for your organization, replacement parts notwithstanding. If it's a converted paddlehead, then not so much. If you know anyone in the medical imaging line, an X-ray shot of the headstock would reveal all.  

blidgood, what's your location? It would be helpful to take some side-by-side photos with a snakehead A4 and paddlehead H2. There might be a Cafe member nearby who'd be willing to help.

It's definitely a correct 21-fret mandola fretboard, and the 12th fret lines up with the end of the riser block just as it should, and it extends over the soundhole just about as much as it should ... which wouldn't be the case if the body were mandolin-sized. Good photos of a Loar-period paddlehead H2 here, for comparison: http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/71983

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## Glassweb

wait a minute... that photo is a composite of 2 different images... i'm all confused now!

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## mrmando

Right, we need a single photo showing the whole instrument, and if you can take a ruler and measure the distance from the nut to the 12th fret, that'll lay to rest any qualms about the scale.

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## allenhopkins

> wait a minute... that photo is a composite of 2 different images... i'm all confused now!


The plot thickens...

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

> The plot thickens...


fingerboard is to skinny in the top photo. I thinks its a mandola body ad a mando neck. 

We need the full Monte.: :Disbelief:

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allenhopkins

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## mrmando

> fingerboard is to skinny in the top photo.


True, unless the fellow holding it is a basketball player. blidgood: please measure the nut width! 



> I thinks its a mandola body ad a mando neck.


That would be a major Frankenstein job, especially getting the mandola fretboard to fit correctly. You'd have to make a dovetail for the dovetail!

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## MikeEdgerton

Am I the only one that knew that was two photos to begin with? I'm waiting for more photos. I suspect it's real but won't know until we see some pictures of the back as well and get the serial and FON.

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## Glassweb

A4 mandolin headstock in the top photo and a H2 body in the lower photo. i didn't know today was April Fool's Day!

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## goaty76

This could be like the boy who is supposedly trapped down the well when in reality he is in the barn hiding. In this case I hope we find that boy in the well. 

*No boys or wells were harmed in this post.

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## MikeEdgerton

Using the totally unscientific approach of trying to get a known snakehead headstock from an A2Z to be the same size as this image. The buttons and the truss rod cover should be close.

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Bob Bass, 

Dobe

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## mrmando

Mike, can you do the same with an H2 paddlehead headstock? 
(To me it looks as though the tuner buttons in your A2Z photo are just a bit bigger than those in the purported H2 photo ... but even so we can see that the H2 headstock and nut are wider ... )

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## MikeEdgerton

I can try in a little while. I know the buttons aren't exact but they are close. If I made them smaller the difference in the headstock width would be even greater. That's not a normal snake headstock. By the way, Darryl already pointed that out in a private conversation. I can't see why Gibson wouldn't have tooled up to make a snakehead mandola. I can however understand why they may not have made many of them.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Looks fully real to me. Peg head is wider at lower shoulders just like they widened the F Mandola. Bridge would not be in that location with a Mandola fingerboard.  12th fret would not be in that location with mandolin neck

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## Darryl Wolfe

Same strap is in both pictures. Drop the conspiracy theories

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## Glassweb

> Same strap is in both pictures. Drop the conspiracy theories


leave it to the pros... Darryl is spot on... perhaps this is the holy grail of Gibson A-model mandolas... an H2 snakehead... would be an amazing find!

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## Darryl Wolfe

> I can try in a little while. I know the buttons aren't exact but they are close. If I made them smaller the difference in the headstock width would be even greater. That's not a normal snake headstock. By the way, Darryl already pointed that out in a private conversation. I can't see why Gibson wouldn't have tooled up to make a snakehead mandola. I can however understand why they may not have made many of them.


Gut check says this is special ordered, or the only one made as an example. They never catalogued snake Mandola

Additionally, I believe/speculate that they had plenty of finished mando las in stock

There are unbelievably few truss rodded mandolas of any kind. Those known tend to be pre snake head or post Loar

I have a narrow neck '26 H1 with the odd The Gibson inlay found only in a narrow swath of time when they appear to have been forced to make a few mandolas and the last batch of snake A4s

I suspect they had plenty of roughed out paddle head Mandola necks and never gave any thought to aligning snake mandolas and snake mandolins....hence the return to paddle head A's.....they had the necks

Speculation

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Dobe, 

Paul Statman

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## MikeEdgerton

If it only had f holes  :Smile:

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## mrmando

There was a short run of F-hole, A-style mandolas in the mid-'30s (not snakehead, though) ... one was on eBay a few days ago for $1,200, not a bad price. 

But yes, I suppose if this had F-holes it would be the Griffith Loar's big sister.

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MikeEdgerton, 

Paul Statman

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## Paul Statman

> Using the totally unscientific approach of trying to get a known snakehead headstock from an A2Z to be the same size as this image. The buttons and the truss rod cover should be close.


Now it looks like a mandola: We can see a wider peghead and definitely wider nut than a snakehead mandolin. What a find!
Thanks, Mike!

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## blidgood

Goodness, folks, hold your horses.  I was working all day in the office pictured behind both of the photos!

The serial is not on the mando archive list, I checked.  It _is_ a mandola, the "H2" is clearly on the label, and...well, it just IS.  I have been using it with my mandolin orchestra ensemble here at ETSU for the past two weeks and it is regaining the lovely baritone voice it lost during a decade-long stint in a closet.  

As promised, better photos and video are forthcoming.  (...and measurements - - are you going to sew it a dress?)

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Dobe

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## MikeEdgerton

This is generally how we react to the discovery of an instrument that is rewriting history.  :Cool: 

Looking forward to seeing more pictures.

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Timbofood

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## Ken Waltham

> Am I the only one that knew that was two photos to begin with? I'm waiting for more photos. I suspect it's real but won't know until we see some pictures of the back as well and get the serial and FON.


Isn't this just a plainly a joke? Come on guys...
It's pretty funny.

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## mandotool

The matching original gibson cord/straps ...a very nice touch..
almost a poetic sort of hoax..yes?

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## j. condino

Snakehead or snakeoil from a new account with only 3 postingzzzzzz?????

OK, so I'll play along and call your bluff:

Is this Lee anonymously posting?

Since it is just over at ETSU, can I come down the hill from Asheville with my hacklinger guage and magnifying glasses to authenticate it? I can bring along other ETSU mandolin faculty if needed or the department head, since I do regular work there and am a registered vendor with the school. If it is real, this would make a great addition to the commercial blueprint I have in the works with another entity featuring a Loar era snakehead mandolin and a matching mandola. In the last 8 years I have worked with the Metropolitain Museum of Art, The Smithsonian, The Heinze Museum, and the National Music Museum with their instrument collections, so I'll bring my fuzzy white gloves and be nice with it, and the rest of the community here will get a follow up on it.

j.
www.condino.com

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Charles E., 

darrylicshon, 

DataNick, 

Mike Black, 

mrmando, 

Paul Statman, 

sgarrity, 

Trey Young

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## Walt

I saw a centaur today, everyone. No, I didn't take a picture of its entire body, but here is one picture of a horse's hind quarters and another picture of a guy's head.

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## mrmando

Goodness, people join the forum with questions about instruments all the time. Let's give the OP a chance and the benefit of the doubt here.

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40bpm, 

Dobe, 

MikeEdgerton

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## MikeEdgerton

First off, to the original poster let me apologize for the collective behavior here, it's a little embarrassing. Yes, we know who the poster is, Darryl has already said he thinks it might be real and chances are it is. Let's all take a step back and wait for the rest of the pictures if the OP even feels like he wants to post them here after this display. He does work for who he says he works for, there's nothing for him to gain here. This is possibly a very unique instrument. I'm not too sure how I would react after that sort of a welcome.

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Bob Bass, 

DataNick, 

Dobe, 

Eric Hanson, 

lloving, 

Mike Black, 

Nat, 

Scot Thayer, 

Scott Tichenor, 

Timbofood

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## j. condino

After some further investigation, I can't yet comment on the instrument but I can vouch for the person. He's solid, honest, a great musician, and we have a prior established relationship, so a little more patience and I'll report back on the mandola. 

A little poking around the café insides also showed that one of my favorite mandolin players has been taking a few minutes off the Dell and Dawg tour to follow this thread! 

Fun, exciting new stuff...and I thought it was going to be another one of those boring regular weekends giging with my Django trio surrounded by all the hot hipster ladies shakin' and grindin' at the pub.... :Wink: 

j.

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DataNick, 

Dobe, 

Mike Black

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## mandotool

you have to admit...that franken photo sure looks like someone with a sense of humor is behind it..
I would love nothing more than to be completely wrong and to add this to my long and growing list of
things I have been wrong about.. 
The suspense is killin me..
Next thing you know...Loar's paddle head 10 string mandola will pop up..
Anybody ??

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## Eric Foulke

Wow, harsh crowd.
Frankly, given Gibson's history of mixing and matching from the "parts bin" in the 20's and 30's, I would have been surprised if there weren't a snakehead mandola. All we need now is a snakehead K-2.
I await more pictures.

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Dobe, 

Scott Tichenor

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## MikeEdgerton

If you click on the picture it is two pictures that by the virtue of the forum software some people took to be one picture. The poster had no say in how that image posted he just attempted to post two pictures and apologized for the resolution. Had he changed the order that he posted in they would have been reversed with the body on the top and the headstock on the bottom.

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lloving, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

Aw, c'mon Mike, surely that was one picture, I couldn't hardly see the giant fold in the middle! :Laughing: 
But seriously, did anyone really think that was one shot? Time for new glasses or screens gang. The occurrence of these little gems floating to the surface still happens, I did not doubt the reality of the photograph, it didn't appear to be the least bit bogus to me and, I'm not that bright, axe anywun!  :Grin:

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lloving

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## allenhopkins

> Am I the only one that knew that was two photos to begin with?....


Well, I for one didn't pick up on that.  _Mea culpa._  Hence, my post that the instrument looked "mandolin-sized."

Hope it's authentic.

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## Vernon Hughes

I see an obvious difference in the peghead width and also the truss rod cover is certainly higher up the peghead on the mandola than on the mandolin. My 2 cents...

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## Scott Tichenor

> The institution where I work received an instrument donation, some older axes of various kinds and qualities.  Along with this beauty, which looks to be a 1924-ish snakehead, with "H2" printed on the label. 
> What do _we_make of this?  I'd love to hear from folks!
> 
>  
> Apologies for the quick and dirty images, will work on figuring out how to get better quality images posted here.


Here we go. How's this now? Pictures side by side.

Those of you that don't have anything courteous to add are welcome to leave the conversation to espouse your wisdom elsewhere. Some of the complainers in this thread are the same people that pull the trigger to moderators anytime they don't like something. I've had enough of it. Belly ache or comment on my post to find out just how short my fuse is over how this individual has been welcomed to our community.

 :Smile:

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Bob Bass, 

Dan Co1e, 

Dobe, 

Eric Foulke, 

Eric Hanson, 

jerrymartin, 

lloving, 

MikeEdgerton, 

mrmando, 

Paul Statman, 

Scot Thayer, 

Timbofood, 

Tom Sanderson, 

Vernon Hughes

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## danb

As Darryl pointed out, the proportions of the snakehead, nut width, etc are definitely credible. I'm curious to see a back view as well as the neck joint, but there's no reason to immediately shout hoax.

It's very cool, and potentially one of the most interesting mandolas we've seen yet! 

The snakehead itself reminds me of proportions on style L guitars.. I had an Ljr at one point with one that was "Fatter" than you'd see on a mandolin too. It makes perfect sense because the bottom width is dictated by the width of the nut/number of strings/string spacing.

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MikeEdgerton, 

Paul Statman

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## blidgood

More images:




Any idea what the back and sides are made of?


Here's the neck joint - looks good to me!


and a video:
https://vimeo.com/144142155

----------

Bob Bass, 

BradKlein, 

darrylicshon, 

DataNick, 

Dave Kirkpatrick, 

Dobe, 

Eric Hanson, 

F-2 Dave, 

Jim Garber, 

lloving, 

Mike Black, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Scott Tichenor, 

Timbofood, 

Vernon Hughes

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## Ken Waltham

Wow.
I have to say, when I only glanced at those first pictures, I sincerely thought it was a joke, and, that it was left kind of amateurish, ie not lined up, to make sure that was understood, tongue in cheek. I never even clicked on them.
But, now this above.
That is way too cool.

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## danb

Everything looks good to me. Blidgood, are you able to read the serial number and stamp number? Stamp number is purple ink up inside above the label on the block.

We've never seen another one of these.. so there is possibly an interesting set of possible explanations. 

The size of the nut, scale, truss position, neck join type, 3-piece neck.. these all look right to me.

The pickguard bracket isn't an original Gibson one from 1924 of course, but that's about the only thing that doesn't look 1924 to me in that instrument

The back & sides are birch- exactly period correct.

Some interesting finish crazing on the back, possibly a little lacquer overspray or old polish.. what do you think Darryl?

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## MikeEdgerton

Thank you for posting the images. This is truly a neat instrument.

That video is great as well, thanks again for posting this. Excellent.

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Wonderful instrument, thanks for posting (and you all for discussing). 
Are there any snake A4s with a three-piece neck? This H2 has just that, making it seem like a factory reworked paddle blank.

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Timbofood

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## sgarrity

You just never know what might pop up with the Gibson name on it.  Just look at Lil Pup, Grisman's two point, or that three point octave he had.  What a cool find.  Thanks for sharing with the rest of us mando-geeks!

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DataNick

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## Tobin

> Wonderful instrument, thanks for posting (and you all for discussing). 
> Are there any snake A4s with a three-piece neck? This H2 has just that, making it seem like a factory reworked paddle blank.


Yeah, I think it really needs to be proven beyond all doubt that this is not just a reworked paddle head (either reworked at the factory or by a later owner) before we all start drooling about it being a one-of-a-kind prize.  I mean, it's cool and all, even if it is a rework.  But obviously not in the same league as it would be if it were original.

It would be nice to see some really up-close photos of the peg head details.  Maybe get someone to overlay this image with an H2 paddle head to see what we should be looking for in terms of filled tuner peg holes, etc.  

I really want this to be original.  But we need to disprove the most likely alternative first.

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## Timbofood

I like it! I am particularly interested if there is any way to find out if the "rework" was done at Parsons Street! Given the provenance of other "unusual" items which have come from the original shop through economy of using what was on hand or what might have been modified from the factory, this is quite a pearl indeed!
Where's my popcorn!?

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## MikeEdgerton

I'm amazed. Does anyone commenting actually understand what "making it seem like a factory reworked paddle *blank*" means? There would have been no tuner holes to fill, it's a blank. Thanks to www.archesmandolin.com for the picture.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Wonderful instrument, thanks for posting (and you all for discussing). 
> Are there any snake A4s with a three-piece neck? This H2 has just that, making it seem like a factory reworked paddle blank.


I just took a quick tour through the 1923 A4's that had image files and didn't find any three piece necks. I would assume that they would have occurred early. I'd guess that they planned on selling enough mandolins to justify building snakehead blanks for them. If you look at the Spann book there aren't a ton of mandola's being built in that period and if as Darryl has suggested they had the neck blanks then I'd assume they'd rework blanks on hand to match that snakehead spec. The numbers of mandolins vs mandolas is really lopsided.

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## MikeEdgerton

> I like it! I am particularly interested if there is any way to find out if the "rework" was done at Parsons Street! Given the provenance of other "unusual" items which have come from the original shop through economy of using what was on hand or what might have been modified from the factory, this is quite a pearl indeed!
> Where's my popcorn!?


I'm sure the neck blank was reworked before it was installed and the mandola left the factory so the answer would be that the rework of the neck blank was done at Parsons Street because that's where the instrument was built.

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Hendrik Ahrend

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## Tobin

> I'm amazed. Does anyone commenting actually understand what "making it seem like a factory reworked paddle *blank*" means? There would have been no tuner holes to fill, it's a blank. Thanks to www.archesmandolin.com for the picture.


If you're referring to my comments about filling holes, I was talking about if a later owner had it reworked.  It would be nice to rule that out definitively.

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## Jim Garber

It looks like there is only one Loar Era H2 with accompanying photos in the Archive: 1923 H2 Mandola.

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## MikeEdgerton

That one has the mandolin sized pickguard and the correct bracket. There weren't a heck of a lot of mandolas even listed in the Spann book.

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## Timbofood

> I'm sure the neck blank was reworked before it was installed and the mandola left the factory so the answer would be that the rework of the neck blank was done at Parsons Street because that's where the instrument was built.


Mike, I am in total agreement though, maybe I expressed myself poorly, the concept that "Here we have a neck blank (albeit a paddlehead) and, we have a order for a mandola, let's make it the design currently in the catalog, even if we only make a couple"  strikes me as both practical and forward thinking should additional orders have come up.
As I say, I may have expressed myself poorly. I'm just glad it was made! And only a mile or less from where I sit!!

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## mandroid

Proportionally, it looks like another Mandolin pictured , not a Mandola 


Aint Gibson But i got a Mandola from the Builder , Greg Biller  with  a 'Surf' scroll and a snake head
 Black walnut neck sides and Back ...  Its Got all the Notes ..  

H scale seems to Be 0.4M. / 400mm

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## Timbofood

For some reason I feel a small itch for a mandola! Thank God it's small, can't afford one, I will just use bamboo and scratch my back until something improves in the job market for me. Drat, drat and double drat!

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## MikeEdgerton

> For some reason I feel a small itch for a mandola! Thank God it's small, can't afford one, I will just use bamboo and scratch my back until something improves in the job market for me. Drat, drat and double drat!


Yeah, me too. I'm lamenting not knowing about the one Martin (mrmando) mentioned. It's *here*. I've been looking at the Trinity College models all day.

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## sgarrity

I could help you scratch that itch........ :Mandosmiley:

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## Timbofood

With which Shaun? The job I need, the mandola, not so much but, thanks!!!

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## oldwave maker

Most inspiring old Gibson I've seen here since the teardrop 21.25 scale octave.
Sign me up for the blueprint, Mr. Condino, especially if you can mic the octave too.
Thanks to Scott T. for enabling this worldwide deep well of mandoarchaeology!

----------

Bob Clark, 

Eric Hanson, 

Mike Black, 

MikeEdgerton

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## Timbofood

I like the term "mandoarchaeology" and yes, thanks so much for all your effort Scott et al.

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## Hendrik Ahrend

> I like the term "mandoarchaeology" and yes, thanks so much for all your effort Scott et al.


Yes, I agree, it's wonderful. Others may want to call it "organology": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organology

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## Kevin Stueve

> Yeah, me too. I'm lamenting not knowing about the one Martin (mrmando) mentioned. It's *here*. I've been looking at the Trinity College models all day.


I'm drooling over the mandola that Old Wave just posted for sale in the classifieds.  (but I really wanted my next one to be an OM)

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MikeEdgerton

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## Fretbear

Well that's one for the books
Very sweet and penetrating tone, similar to that ancient banjo-sounding-like A that Grisman recorded "Turn of the Century" with.

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## jdsobol

> That's a mandolin pickguard on a mandola body. I'm pretty sure it's an H.


I happen to work at that institution as well, and Lee showed me the mandola last week. It's the real deal. Replaced pickguard, everything else original. Quite a jaw-dropping find.
Joseph

----------

MikeEdgerton, 

Paul Statman

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## jdsobol

When he showed it to me I did suggest he post some pictures on this forum, and then listen for the sound of mandolin geeks (excuse me, mando-archeologists) collectively befouling their knickers.

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Paul Statman

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## MikeEdgerton

Darryl had mentioned that they put mandolin pickguards on mandolas in the Loar years. The bracket is definitely replaced. Really a nice find.

*1921*
*1924*

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## MikeEdgerton

> When he showed it to me I did suggest he post some pictures on this forum, and then listen for the sound of mandolin geeks (excuse me, mando-archeologists) collectively befouling their knickers.


Yeah, pretty much  :Smile:

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## mandobassman

> wait a minute... that photo is a composite of 2 different images... i'm all confused now!


It's not a composit image. It's the same two images from post 7, only they're stacked on top of each other instead of side by side. I don't think the intent was to make it look like one image.

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## mandobassman

Of course, I typed the above comment and THEN realized that this thread was already 4 pages long and my contribution had already been covered. Perhaps I should read ahead next time.

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## blidgood

James Condino came over the mountain to examine the centaur today - more info to come.

----------

Charles E., 

darrylicshon, 

Mike Black, 

MikeEdgerton

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## j. condino

'Spent a couple of hours with this instrument this afternoon....very, very, very cool.

A couple of years ago I was up doing some research at the Metropolitain Museum of Art, both amazed at the scope of humanity represented and amused at the generally accepted fact that likely 30% or more of the what is on display at the great worlds museums are generally credited as forgeries. Over the years, I have seen many great instruments that the finest "exeperts" in the country assured me were original that later turned out to be forgeries and I have know of several instruments that every person in the country told me in no way possibly existed because they were " the dude" and had never seen one, while I patiently tried to explain over the phone that, no, I have one right here in my hands, while they called me a fool and talked of $20 garage sale Stradivarius labeled cheap violin copies....

Without question, there will be skeptics, there will be claims made, there will be people calling me a fool again and saying that I am no vintage Gibson mandola expert (who really is??? Better yet, who really wants that title???), and my favorite, " That's a whole lotta nuthin' ..." (...from some punk who paints mandolinz green...).  In the end, does any of it really matter? What really matters is if it is a great instrument. Does it captivate you, does it move and inspire your music, does it make your heart weap and excite you and stay up late at night lusting after expressions of sound that once only existed in your mind and now you can somehow express that to others????? Is life better with this instrument in your hands?

I'm having some issues posting tonight, so I'll do this in several postings rather than one long one....

j.
www.condino.com

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Paul Statman

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## j. condino

Well..... this is one damned fine mandola; if Gibson made them all like this, they would have sold 1000s of them and I would own one....and play it every day.

I did not check it with a black light, and I did not xray or catscan it; there seemed to be no reason or doubt necessitating that. I ran all of the numbers, made a pretty complete blueprint of it, I checked every mm inside and outside, 'hacked'it, tapped, prodded, and played the full range, and went over it all with a magnifying glass. I have handled a couple of dozen Loar signed instruments, including my favorite - the Griffith A5, for extended periods as a musician, a luthier, and a geeked out engineer with all of the nerdy measuring tools at hand. I can find no reason too doubt the authenticity of this one. 

Everything about the neck  seems correct and well executed, the setup is fantastic and it plays with ease with nothing but a fresh set of strings, the back and sides are very consistent with several other Gibson mandolas of this period that I have measured- almost down to 1/10 mm. The top shows eveidence that this had special attention and was about 20% thinner than the recorded blueprints that I brought with me (like a lot of snakehead A mandolins vs earlier paddleheads) and the recurve is a bit tighter, not like the typical lazy curves- like you would expect if someone gave it some hand attention.  The voice is beautiful, the neck and body area are very consistent with the color balance and patina, and there are the usual Gibson production quirks- the slight anomalies right at the joint around the binding that always show, suggesting the same production technique. The single transverse brace under the bridge is intact and shows no signs of prior repairs. The entire headstock shows no signs of modification or manipulation and from looking at it very closely, I think today may have been the first time the truss rod cover has ever been removed. The caramel buttoned Waverly machines work great and show no signs of altering or monkeybusiness.

The serial number- 75109 is clearly visible form the label, but I looked everywhere inside for about 15 minutes and found no sign of a Factory Order Number, suggesting the possibility that this was a spec or prototype instrument. Does anyone know what the 3 digit number on the outside edge of the tailpiece is? 

Given his fondness for snakehead A mandolins, the production if the Griffith Loar, and the fact that his personal giging instrument was often a mandola and NOT a precious F5, it seems reasonable to think that LL had a hand with this one. Could this possibly be one of the mandolas in the white sitting on Loar's workbench in the well known photo of him in a lab coat holding up his ten string while lookng down at the workbench full of chaos?

Regardless of the history or backstory, this is a great mandola...like I said, if it were mine, I would play it every single day! Plenty more to tell, stop by the shop for a visit and you can see the real details and a bit of laughter...

Did I mention the exceptionally clean shaped 1920s Geib hardshell case????

j.
www.condino.com

----------

Bob Bass, 

Gypsy, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Ken Waltham, 

Mandomusic, 

Mike Black, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Paul Statman, 

Timbofood, 

Tobin

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## j. condino

Very frustrating night; it took me about 70 minutes to upload the last two postings (should have taken 10) and I am unable to load the images I'd like to share. Scott, I sent you an email with about 20 new photos attached so you as an MC jedi can upload them. thx.

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Mike Black, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Paul Statman

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## allenhopkins

> ...I am no vintage Gibson mandola expert (who really is??? Better yet, who really want[s] that title???)...


George Gruhn, that's who.




> In the end, does any of it really matter? NO what really matters is if it is a great instrument. Does it captivate you, does it move and inspire your music, does it make your hea[r]t we[e]p and excite you and stay up late at night lusting after expressions of sound that once only existed in your mind and now you can somehow express that to others????? Is life better with this instrument in your hands?...


Disagree a bit here: it _does_ matter if one is interested in Gibson history, in whether they made this possible "one-of" mandola, or whether it was re-engineered from a more conventional instrument.  Whether it's a "great, captivating instrument" or not, its provenance and history do matter; they put it in context, suggest a hitherto unmentioned production decision, during Gibson's "golden age" of mandolin production.

The history of a particular instrument can bring insight into the whole history of music -- the changing types and styles of instrumental music, and of the instruments that were created to play it.  Not to make too much of this "discovery," if in fact it is one, but I for one look forward with interest, to what your examination might disclose.

"Expressions of sound that...only [exist] in your mind and now you can somehow express...to others" can be realized on a $8 million Stradivarius, or on a 99¢ kazoo.  This mandola may elicit such expressions, or it may not.  That question aside, I'd like to know [a] if it's a gen-you-wine 1920's snakehead, to the extent we can tell, and [b] what its path to Lee's "institution" was, to the extent _that_ can be determined.

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## j. condino

Everyone that has seen it and played it agrees that it is genuine; the only people suggesting it is not have had no contact with it.... :Popcorn:

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MikeEdgerton, 

Paul Statman, 

Timbofood

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## danb

The one in the archive looks like an oddity. 3pc neck, truss cut in, paddle, '22 style tuners..

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Paul Statman

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## MikeEdgerton

The path to the institution was that it was donated with a number of other instruments to the institution. I'm going to guess that the family that donated it (the name is in the video posted) must have had the means to secure an instrument of this quality if they actually had a number of instruments to donate to the institution. I own a whole lot of musical instruments, some old some new and I'm pretty sure that my "collection" probably wouldn't be welcomed with open arms by most institutions. They wouldn't know what to with them. We have people on the Cafe that do know and have seen the pictures and a well respected luthier that dismisses himself as a Gibson expert but has enough experience to be able to tell you that it doesn't look like it was modified and that he believes it is real vouching for the authenticity. Having one more expert that by the way, makes a mistake on occasion,  certify that he thinks it's real does nothing for me. I for one am going to accept that what you have here is a snakehead H2 mandola previously unknown to the mandolin community.

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## Timbofood

Thanks James for providing so much real hands on information! This is one more reason I spend as much time here as I do! It's always so cool to have the "oyster provide the pearl" from time to time!

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Paul Statman

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## Tobin

> The entire headstock shows no signs of modification or manipulation and from looking at it very closely, I think today may have been the first time the truss rod cover has ever been removed.


Cool!  This is what I was hoping for, in terms of authentication that it wasn't a later modification.

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## Fretbear

Using the words Mandola and Snakehead together would previously have only showed one's ignorance on the matter at hand...
_
but that was then_

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MikeEdgerton, 

Paul Statman

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## Jeff Mando

> Using the words Mandola and Snakehead together would previously have only showed one's ignorance on the matter at hand...
> _
> but that was then_


/

I think it is an exciting and cool discovery!   And, I'm sure, there is equal excitement on the "Antique Butter Churn" forum when a new discovery is made there, as well.....if there is such a forum!

And, we're talking about an instrument less than 100 years old, probably owned by the same family all these years, maybe kept in the same house/closet/attic.  Not so hard to imagine, really.  We're not talking King Tut's tomb or anything, but still great and educational!   :Cool: 

When, I moved to the South years ago, I had the chance to meet a lot of old musicians that I admired.  I always asked them what happened to their old guitars that were pictured on their albums......you know, 50's Stratocasters, National resonators, Martins, etc......in every case, the instruments got sold off or ended up in the pawn shop to pay a bill over the "lean" years.  I think Mike makes a good point that the family probably had the means to hang onto their collection over the years and later donate it to the institution.

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## blidgood

Now, apart from joyfully and gratefully playing (and listening to this instrument being played) in our Mandolin Orchestra, I am going to direct my energies towards finding out more about the history of the instrument by speaking with the donor's family.  I'll likely have more questions for the group as I delve.

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darrylicshon, 

Mike Black, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Timbofood, 

Tom Sanderson

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## Timbofood

Looking forward to hearing about this instruments history!

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## tim noble

Wow what a great story unfolding. Thank you for sharing it with this community and the video was outstanding. I'm curious if the sound differences between snake head and paddle head mandos was translated to this mandola? Looking forward to more photos and the history of the family that donated the instruments to a worthy institution.
Tim

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Paul Statman

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## Scott Tichenor

Here is the first set of images of the H-2 taken by James Condino. He didn't have the software to resize these from 300 dpi so I too the liberty.

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Bob Bass, 

Mandomusic, 

Paul Statman

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## Scott Tichenor

Second batch:

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Bob Bass, 

John Soper, 

Paul Statman, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

Thanks Scott! It's so interesting to see these historical instruments getting kind treatment!

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## Jeff Mando

Great pics, Scott & James!  Thanks!

It's been a while since I was in an "institution", but did the USA switch to using Millimeters recently?   :Wink:

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## Spruce

> It's been a while since I was in an "institution", but did the USA switch to using Millimeters recently?


Luthiers have been ahead of the curve for quite a few centuries now...   :Wink:

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j. condino, 

Mike Black

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## j. condino

> Great pics, Scott & James!  Thanks!
> 
> It's been a while since I was in an "institution", but did the USA switch to using Millimeters recently?


December 23, 1975 when Gerald Ford signed The Metric Conversion Act!

My phone has been ringing constant with folks asking for the blueprint and the measurements, so I tried to give some accurate reference for all of the folks out there who are chopping up the current half built paddlehead mandolas they have under construction and making it a snakehead. The rest of the specs are basically standard issue '20s era Gibson mandola with a top that has been given some special attention....'hope that helps. Stop by for a visit in person with some malt beverages and you can get a look at all of it. :Wink: 
J.

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MikeEdgerton

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## mrmando

> I'm curious if the sound differences between snake head and paddle head mandos was translated to this mandola?


The video clip again, with forum-friendly embedding so it's easier to find:

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Gary Leonard, 

Gypsy, 

John Soper

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## John Rosett

Really cool! Any chance of some "whole instrument" pictures?

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## Mike Black

> Really cool! Any chance of some "whole instrument" pictures?


Look at post #51.  TOP of page 3 of this thread.

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## Charles E.

This has been a very exciting thread. The discovery of the only known snake head Gibson mandola. Just out of curiosity, what would be the insurance value for such an instrument?  Would it be twice the value of a regular H model mandola or if a Lloyd Loar connection could be made, would the sky be the limit?

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## Timbofood

Not sure that an "inland marine" policy would be warranted but, that would be an interesting little bit of information.

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## mrmando

It might be worth the $35 (or whatever the fee is) to send those photos to George Gruhn and see what he says.

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Timbofood

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## MikeEdgerton

> This has been a very exciting thread. The discovery of the only known snake head Gibson mandola. Just out of curiosity, what would be the insurance value for such an instrument?  Would it be twice the value of a regular H model mandola or if a Lloyd Loar connection could be made, would the sky be the limit?


If it had F holes and Lloyd's signature it would be a huge price.

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## Tobin

> This has been a very exciting thread. The discovery of the only known snake head Gibson mandola. Just out of curiosity, what would be the insurance value for such an instrument?  Would it be twice the value of a regular H model mandola or if a Lloyd Loar connection could be made, would the sky be the limit?


Shoot, if it were on the market for double the price of a regular H2, he would have to beat off the potential buyers with a stick!

Since there is no existing comparison for this, there's really no way to know what it's worth unless it were to be auctioned off.  It would be interesting to see how high the bids would go.

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MikeEdgerton, 

Timbofood

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## JeffD

I wonder if it is the only one, or the only one found thus far. Would it make sense that only one was made?

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## MikeEdgerton

You can never say never I guess. This one came out of left field. With Gibson anything is possible. Years ago a famous Gibson expert said that a certain Gibson second line instruments was never made only to have two or three surface in the next few years. Honestly eBay brought a lot of stuff out from under beds and into the market. A few years back another seller of vintage instruments called another Gibson second line instrument a fake when they saw it. The owner assumed it was a fake. It was eventually identified here as real and more have surfaced. I use these as examples because there's no real great value to them other than historical so nobody would go to the trouble of making a counterfeit instrument. We've never seen another signed Loar A model mandolin and I don't think we will but you never know.

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Charles E.

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## mrmando

I'd say it's worth somewhere between $10K and $25K, for a wild guess.

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## blidgood

All,
more videos - the camera is working again:

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Bob Bass, 

Mike Black, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Paul Statman

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## blidgood

In other news, if you are in striking distance of Northeast Tennessee, come see this instrument in action at the second annual Mandolin Orchestra concert, at St. John's Episcopal Church in Johnson City, TN - Tuesday November 17, 2015  starting at 8:15pm.  

- with Special guests Adam Steffey (yes, THAT Adam Steffey), and Adam Tanner (yes, THAT Adam Tanner) among others.

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## sgarrity

What a great sounding instrument!  Thanks for doing the videos and that's some nice playing too!!

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Mike Black, 

Paul Statman

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## Eddie Sheehy

I picked this paddlehead up as a '24 H1.  The serial number and FON number are illegible.  I had some correspondence with Joe Spann and Dan Beimborn to try to determine the year.  They say that after 1924 the finish on the topcoat was lacquer.  I don't know lacquer from liquor but my friend Spruce says it's not lacquer on top, but he's not 100% sure of that either...  Anyway, here' a clip for sound comparison with the Snake  - the TI strings give it a softer tone.

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## MikeEdgerton

> In other news, if you are in striking distance of Northeast Tennessee, come see this instrument in action at the second annual Mandolin Orchestra concert, at St. John's Episcopal Church in Johnson City, TN - Tuesday November 17, 2015  starting at 8:15pm.  
> 
> - with Special guests Adam Steffey (yes, THAT Adam Steffey), and Adam Tanner (yes, THAT Adam Tanner) among others.


OK, that's three times in the last week the old cafe Wallpaper has been posted.  :Smile: 

That graphic originated here.

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## blidgood

Thanks, Mike!  i'll credit all future use of it. Can someone photoshop in the Snakehead mandola to that graphic? That would be the right hook for this show...

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## Ken Waltham

Here's an interesting look at a Tenor Lute converted to a snakehead mandola. I have had this idea a long time, and had this completed about 3 months ago. It is just as I suspected, after having the Hacklinger measurements compared to an H5 LL mandola, they are scary the same. So, you can guess what this sounds like. Tuners are original Loar period, silver plated with oak leaves. The mandola has all the attributes of a Loar era mandola, raised fingerboard, and, even a Master Model Label!

After seeing the H2 mandola in this thread, I am even more convinced that Loar had an idea for a line of snakehead A model, f holed instruments.

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Bob Bass, 

BradKlein, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Paul Statman, 

Roman Pekar, 

sgarrity

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## MikeEdgerton

Great Ken, another instrument I can seriously lust after  :Cool:

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## MikeEdgerton

> Thanks, Mike!  i'll credit all future use of it. Can someone photoshop in the Snakehead mandola to that graphic? That would be the right hook for this show...



That's pretty much up to Scott.

*Here's* an explanation of where it came from.

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## MikeEdgerton

For those that haven't seen one, this is a tenor lute. Ken who made the neck and did the conversion?

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## Ken Waltham

Bill Halsey. The TL in the photo has an unusual, and, I would say non original case.

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## MikeEdgerton

Cool. You couldn't ask for a better luthier to do that conversion. It's probably an inexpensive but vintage banjo case. It looks great.

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## Timbofood

Very cool to see this done Ken! I had a very "general" conversation about this project with Bill last early summer. He is such a great guy to have a chat with, I am proud to know him. Glad to see more of his work! Sunday after I hit the lotto, I'm calling him for a "set" F-4 and F-5!  I don't know that I can get him away from his new passion, pursuing ITM fiddle but, I will sure as shooting try!
I can hardly wait!
Film at eleven!

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Great move Ken, wonderful instrument" I remember you posted about that possibility a while ago. Where did you get those tuners? Did you slaughter a second LL A5 - or an MB 5?

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## Ken Waltham

Henry....... :Grin:

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## lenf12

You guys are killin' me  :Wink: 

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## Timbofood

Aw Len, you love it just like the rest of us! 
This stuff keeps the popcorn growers in business!
"I love this site!" With apologies to Toby Keith.

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## mandotool

Beautifully done Ken...I'm sure loyd would approve ..
Love to hear that 17.5" scale lenth..any chance for a video ?

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## mandotool

Here's Ken's original Mando/lute/viola thread...
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ght=mandoviolahttp://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ght=mandoviola

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## MikeEdgerton

> Here's Ken's original Mando/lute/viola thread...
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ght=mandoviolahttp://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ght=mandoviola


That's an intense thread  :Cool:

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## William Smith

> Here's an interesting look at a Tenor Lute converted to a snakehead mandola. I have had this idea a long time, and had this completed about 3 months ago. It is just as I suspected, after having the Hacklinger measurements compared to an H5 LL mandola, they are scary the same. So, you can guess what this sounds like. Tuners are original Loar period, silver plated with oak leaves. The mandola has all the attributes of a Loar era mandola, raised fingerboard, and, even a Master Model Label!
> 
> After seeing the H2 mandola in this thread, I am even more convinced that Loar had an idea for a line of snakehead A model, f holed instruments.


Great deal Ken!, I know ya had this idea floating around  for a while now, I'm very pleased ya went with it! I'd love to hear it. I'm a huge fan of conversions,

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## blidgood

I think this thread is winding down (I will post any more information that I can find about the history of the H-2 snakehead), but wanted to add a report from a concert last night featuring the instrument.

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## blidgood

One more, showing the Centaur in a different setting:

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## MikeEdgerton

We like threads that are years old. Please continue to post what you find. Thanks.

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## j. condino

Here is another nice video of that show featuring Black Cohosh written and performed by Adam Tanner and crew:

http://youtu.be/nKHRD3C9a4A

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## goaty76

> Wow, harsh crowd.
>  All we need now is a snakehead K-2.
> I await more pictures.


Ask and you will receive.  I'll start a new thread but here's the preview.

Phil

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## blidgood

Folks, if you are still tuned in to this thread: I just spoke last week to the wife of the original owner of the H-2 snakehead mandola, (tentatively named "The Centaur").  She told me that her husbands' parents bought the instrument for him at a pawn shop in Knoxville, TN in the late 1930s.  Will ask around more, but that is all I have for now.

----------

MikeEdgerton, 

Roman Pekar, 

Tobin, 

Tom Sanderson

----------

