# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  Celtic Standards?

## min7b5

I've been thinking about learning some celtic tunes, maybe someday going to a jam.. Anyone feel like listing the top twenty or so most called tunes?  Or should I break into down in sub groups like jigs, reels, hornpipes? Any guidance appreciated :Smile:

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## Eddie Sheehy

Jigs: The Kesh, Merrily Kisssed the Quaker, The Swallowtail,  Brian Boru's March
Slip Jigs: Kid on The Mountain, The Snowy Path, The Butterfly, Boys of Ballisodare
Hornpipes: Boys of Blue Hill, Harvest Home, Rights of Man, The Belfast
Reels: Master Crowley's, The Rakes of Mallow, The Musical Priest
Polkas: John Ryan's, Dennis Murphy's, The 42 pound cheque

Check out the Song-A-Week Social Group for samples of these and more...

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## Jill McAuley

If you go over to www.thesession.org and do a search for "dow's list" you'll get a lengthy list of tunes you'll potentially encounter at a session, you can also get ABC's/notation for the tunes there. 

A few I'd add to Eddie's list: 
Reels: The Silver Spear, Maid Behind the Bar, Cooleys, The Merry Blacksmith, The Congress, Rolling in the Ryegrass, Toss the Feathers, Maud Millar, Master McDermott's, The Earls Chair, Lucy Farr's, The Star of Munster, The Bag of Spuds

Jigs: Out on the Ocean, The Rambling Pitchfork, The Mist Covered Mountain, Cliffs of Moher, Humours of Ennistymon, Lark in the Morning, The Geese in the Bog, Banish Misfortune

Hornpipes: The Liverpool, The Galway, Stack of Barley, Plains of Boyle, The Kildare Fancy 

If you check out the Song-A-Week social group here we've done quite a few trad tunes - you'll find the ABC's for them and a variety of video examples of folks playing them.

You can also check out www.mandolinsessions.com and click on the "irish/celtic" tab, where you'll find tunes, notation/tab for them, tips on technique and mp3's giving you both a slowed down and at speed version of the tune in question.

Cheers,
Jill

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## Coffeecup

The trouble with picking tunes like this is, what is in the top twenty list at one session may rarely appear at a different session.  The usual recommendation at The Session is pay a few visits first with no intention of playing, just listen and pick up some of the tunes and the session etiquette.

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## Eddie Sheehy

It won't hurt to get a bunch of the tunes we've listed under your belt.  Jump in at the deep end...

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## min7b5

:Smile: thanks, this is great :Smile:

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## Jill McAuley

I agree with Eddie - while the catalog of tunes played at individual sessions varies, it still can't hurt to start learning some tunes before attending a session as you'll get an idea of the feel/emphasis/timing of jigs, reels, hornpipes, polkas etc. Once you get to grips with that then learning new tunes tends to happen quite quickly. Coffeecup is right that it's always a good idea to drop into a session to listen a few times, without an instrument, to get an idea of the tunes they're playing, check in to find out what's the etiquette for joining in at that session etc. Even if they're playing tune sets you're unfamiliar with, you'll likely find that learning those new tunes occurs much faster if you've already got a good feel for trad music. Oh, and one other resource that's kinda fun is the BBC's "Virtual Session", no substitute for the real thing, but good craic nonetheless. Here's the link for it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/sessions/

Cheers,
Jill

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## Pete Braccio

If you like the Virtual Session, I've got them saved as PDFs and MP3s on my web site.

Pete

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## Coffeecup

OK, Eddie and Jill make good points about learning some tunes first.  As a newcomer to Irish music my list is small, but these are what we've learned at a slow session here:
The Banshee, Bill Sullivans Polka, Black Rogue, Egans Polka, Hills of Tara, Kesh Jig, Kevin McHughs (slide), Rolling in the Ryegrass, Hardiman the Fiddler, Concertina Reel, Na Ceannabhain Bhana, Calliope House, Humours of Lisheen, Brenda Stubberts Reel, Dusty Windowsills, Peacocks Feather, The Ash Plant, Willie Colemans Jig, Star of Munster, Craigs Pipes, Ship in Full Sail, My Darlings Asleep (or A Sheep), St Annes Reel, The Wise Maid, Rakes of Mallow.

So, a few of those were previously mentioned but a number of different ones.

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## Randi Gormley

Kitty's Wedding, Rose in the Heather -- oh! and Fanny Power. Mustn't forget O'Carolan.

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## harihari

Also, note that Irish sessions are not "jams" in the sense that bluegrass sessions are (where you follow the chords and each instrument gets a solo).  

In Irish music, YOU MUST KNOW THE TUNE.  If you show up at a session and try to "play along" you will be told to f**k off.  So good for you for wanting to learn a set of tunes!

Session etiquette that applies all over the world (for Irish music):

a)  do not play tunes you don't know.  Listen and learn.
b)  one bodhran or backing guitar at a time
c)  do not improvise except for ornamentation
d)  if you playing a backing instrument (guitar, zouk, etc) LEARN THE TUNE FIRST and do NOT play cowboy chords...unless you know DADGAD, leave the guitar at home.

This may sound harsh, but Irish music either sounds magnificent when everybody is on the same page, or it sounds like muddy #### when you have too many guitars and drums or people "jamming."  I have heard people say "stop it, you're ruining the music" or "best leave those noodles in the kitchen." :Wink: 


chris

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## John McGann

> d)  if you playing a backing instrument (guitar, zouk, etc) LEARN THE TUNE FIRST and do NOT play cowboy chords...unless you know DADGAD, leave the guitar at home.


Good advice up to the DADGAD- if that were true, you'd be sending the likes of Arty McGlynn, Paul Brady and John Doyle home...I'd sooner have a standard tuned guitarist with good rhythm playing than a DADGAD player with shaky time...the tuning doesn't matter, it's the _approach._

Besides, Whitey Andrew's 'cowboy chords' on the Coleman records sounded way better than just about any of the utterly clueless piano backing...

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## John McGann

> I've been thinking about learning some celtic tunes, maybe someday going to a jam.. Anyone feel like listing the top twenty or so most called tunes?  Or should I break into down in sub groups like jigs, reels, hornpipes? Any guidance appreciated


Whatever the tunes, it's really a good idea to learn from classic recordings, by ear, than from ABCs or tune books. You'll get the real important elements of the style sonically, rather than visually...

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## Eddie Sheehy

There's no substitute for going to a session and listening.  You can join in - keep the volume low - and concentrate on the rhythm strokes.  Use your strokes to keep the beat.  Once you get the beat for the tunes, fit the chords in - then run your arpeggios/counterpoint to the beat..

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## Rob Gerety

> ...unless you know DADGAD, leave the guitar at home.


Many extremely competent Celtic guitar players use standard tuning and drop D as well.  Not sure way you would say this.

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## Bertram Henze

You play either melody or accompaniment:

- melody: you have to know the tunes. Don't worry if your repository is touched only once or twice in 4 hours at first and you're sitting up the rest - that's perfectly normal. Try to learn by ear (after all, aural tradition is what makes Celts); if you use sheet music in the beginning for a new tune, try to hatch from it as soon as possible.

- accompaniment: in Irish music, the roles of melody and accompaniment are reversed - the melody is definitive, chords are improvised. This makes accompaniment the real challenge, because even if you have practised chords for a tune you know, somebody else may have practised other chords, and the collision is sometimes unpleasant. The key is to learn to listen and immerse yourself into the harmonic environment by ear. Under no circumstances bother a melody player by asking what chords you should play - many players can't speak while playing (I am one of them) and the chords are not "official". Some melody players shout out the general key at the beginning of the tune ("A minor!"), but that's optional and all you will get. You can watch more experienced accompanists' left hands, but reckon with a multitude of tunings. As a rule, it is a good idea to not play full chords but stick with double stops to minimize the danger of collision and to avoid drowning the melody in sound sauce.

I recommend visiting the Song-A-Week social group here on the Cafe, where there are many Irish tunes covered and you can actually see what is possible on mandolin family instruments.

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## John McGann

It can be good to go to your local session and just record it first- take the recording home and learn some of the tunes so that you have some confidence when you sit in for the first time...and it's practical  :Mandosmiley:

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## harihari

> Many extremely competent Celtic guitar players use standard tuning and drop D as well.  Not sure way you would say this.


Ya, sorry, i should have clarified:  DADGAD is ideal, but there are loads of folks who don't play in it (Arty McGlynn is God and he doesn't always use DADGAD).  I like DADGAD but often use drop D and a capo.  Here is Richard Thompson (with hair!) playing Banish Misfortune in DADGAD http://www.youtube.com/user/fastabul.../6/AHx8xsp8EMI

In Irish music, broadly speaking, the accompaniment generally (but not always) leaves out the thirds.  E.g. If you are playing in A, you want to leave out the c natural or c sharp most of the time-- the melody lines will fill in these notes.  The idea is to "paint around" the melody by building a set of layered drones.  This is why standard cowboy chords (e.g. a G chord that is played GBDGBG) don't sound good-- you are better off playing it GDGDG (with the A string silent) and adding (depending on tune) an F natural here and there.  

A tune like "Scatter the Mud" (played in A) can be accompanied by an A chord that consists only of AEA with the occasional G and B thrown in.  Playing it with A major or minor would screw it up, because the tune itself is modal and doesn't use those notes.

BUT...for every rule there are exceptions (e.g. Paddy Fahy's D reel, which is in both major and minor, or "FArewell to Eire" whihc is in both Dorian and Mixolydian and requires accompaniment in both major and modal)...and this is why the #1 rule of accompanying Irish trad is, LEARN THE TUNE.  A really good accompanist will sit out a tune that s/he doesn't know rather than jump in and improvise.  And a good accompanist can utterly transform a tune-- the first time I heard Dave Marshall accompany "The Holly Bush" it might as well have been a new tune.

OK I am sure that Irish trads are gonna jump on me for these comments heh heh  :Grin:

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## Jock

In trad accompaniment the tuning used is secondary as is knowing the tune TBH as there are a few tricks that an experienced backer employs to help out when an unknown tune crops up in the middle of a set. Sessions where the same old tunes are pumped out week after week maybe good for learning but this type of session is pants from craic point of view (IMHO).

At a good session where tunes are happening/flowing the tune starter will usually give the heads up on any strange progressions that are about to crop up. Ears are the essential equipment to bring along irrespective of backing or melody playing. 

Cowboy chords are just as valid as any other and a few different chordal approaches help the texture from becoming same same same. 

Treatment of 3rds is important. Leaving out the 3rd and inserting it is what makes accompaniment interesting. Irish music tends to be more modally dynamic than scottish in that many more Irish tunes often contain a mix of minor and modal elements in the same tune. While the minor 3rd can be left out of the root chord in a minor tune (provided the rest of the progression remains minor in character) playing a major 3rd in the root chord of a modal tune helps to define the tune (and shows that your listening). Many good backers will insert the major 3rd just at the right point giving the music a real lift.

Most (almost all) of the sessions I go to would more than welcome a bit bluegrass mandolin especially the backing, bluegrass mandolin off beat rhythm is mighty behind a trad tune, but then again I'm in scotland. 

Anthems/standards: 

irish slip jig; O'Farrell's welcome to limerick (an phis fluich, the ready wife).
irish jig; The gold ring

scots strathspey; Munlochy bridge
scots reel; Jenny dang the weever 

To name but a few...........
 :Mandosmiley:

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## Dagger Gordon

Interesting post, Jock.  Also good to remind people that 'Celtic' doesn't just mean Irish.

I would say, incidentally, that most people I tend to see use standard guitar tuning in Scotland for tune accompaniment.  Song accompaniment and solo things are perhaps more likely to use various tunings (not necessarily DADGAD).

Also my limited exposure to Breton accompaniment suggests that they often use DADGAD.  There was once a group of Bretons (over 20 of them) travelling around our part of the world and all 3 guitarists who were there used DADGAD all the time.

Worth noting too that many Scottish players often play for ceilidh dances which I think affects how they play.  Dancers have little interest in what tuning a guitar is in.  What is important is 'lift'.

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## Jock

I tend to use standard for backing because the music is often mixed scots irish canadian french-canadian breton galician asturian, phew... and as you point out Dagger; playing for dancing ( that boring old bottom A root chord being mighty for lift can't be replicated satisfactorily in other tunings, I know many a peer who'd disagree tuning wise but we all get by in our own way). So because scots dance music is never far from the radar, here in scotland, standard is the best compromise for me.    

Sessions are now such serious affairs that I tend to favour tunes at home. When once craic was the essential ingredient it seems now to have been abandoned, by many, as a leading principal in favour of an anal compliance to a nonsense etiquette which stifles spontaneity and massages the ego of the regulars. Can't even get drunk any more as pubs turn into restaurants and session music turns into business.

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## John McGann

> (Arty McGlynn is God and he doesn't always use DADGAD).


Arty is actually a carbon-based human life form- and he doesn't use DADGAD, he's a dropped D guy.

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## Shelagh Moore

_In Irish music, YOU MUST KNOW THE TUNE. If you show up at a session and try to "play along" you will be told to f**k off._

Not in any Irish session I've organised or have been involved in over the past 45 years. Sessions are also about learning and improving and to tell someone to $**€ off is rude, unnecessary and totally against the spirit of a true session. At least that's how it is here.

That excepted, great to get some tunes under your belt and the suggestions here are good ones.

Richard (Irish and living in Scotland)

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Violingirl

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## Matt DeBlass

Usually at our session (Lambertville, NJ), the only rule seems to be "if you don't know what you're doing, do it quietly." I've been a bodhran player there for years, but now that we seem to be swamped with bodhrans some nights I've started making tentative forays into mandolin playing. If it's a tune I know, I play melody, if I don't, I'll play chords or chord fragments (and I'll watch the guitar player to make sure I'm playing the same ones as he does). So far they've all been pretty patient with my stumbling, which at last session at least, was probably made easier by the fact that I was next to the box player and nobody (including myself) could hear me. 

It's usually good to see what's played most at your local session. In my experience the actual name of the tunes will come up after the set is done, usually in a discussion like this: Fiddler 1- "what was that second tune called again?" Fiddler 2- "Maggie something, I think." Guitar Player- "Are you sure it wasn't a 'Mary' tune?" Bodhran player - "Whatever, who wants to get another pitcher?"

Which brings us to two other important tips:
1- not only do you want to learn the popular tunes, but learn which ones usually go together at your local session. Usually, two or three run right into each other, and the groupings and orders vary from place to place. 
2- don't be afraid to ask what a tune or tunes was called after it's done. Usually someone will remember the name eventually and be able to tell you. Bring a little notebook and write them down.  If you ask and get nothing but attitude in response, you're at the wrong session. 
3 (bonus)- Much musical fumbling will be forgiven of he who bought the last pitcher. :Mandosmiley:

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## DougC

All great comments here. I hope Eric read all of this stuff. In St. Paul Minnesota we started a Slow Sessiun and had more tolerance for beginners. We brought in sheet music too and caught hell from the traditionalists. Well not actually hell, everyone is very nice. I compiled a book of our favorite tunes that included a page on sessiun etiquette as well as a chart showing common guitar chord progressions, as well as a big recommendation to listen to recordings. After 15 years a number of people went from total bumblers to real good sessiun players. But there needs to be someone there to guide the clueless guitar or bodhran player towards civility.

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## min7b5

> All great comments here. I hope Eric read all of this stuff. ...


This is all fantastic. Thank you. 

I haven't jumped in yet though. Maybe a list of essential recordings is next :Smile:

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## John Kelly

Can I jump in here to support the comments by Jock, Dagger and Richard.  I too am based in Scotland and have never encountered the brusque dismissal suggested in this thread.  Back in July we were over playing at a festival in Cairncastle in County Antrim and got invited to an afternoon session in a pub just outside Larne where we were welcomed warmly and offered the chance to perform with the regulars and in  fact to start tunes ourselves which the local musicians joined in with.  Guitars were standard and DADGAD.  Scots and Irish share common roots, certainly, and yes, we were invited back.
I have heard it said from some Irish players that traditional sessions are dying out in many parts of Ireland especially in the larger towns/cities and have been replaced by what is seen as more "tourist-friendly" music in many pubs - this has happened here in Scotland too and in my own area in Argyllshire there are many hotels who rely on coach parties who expect "authentic" Scottish entertainment which is redolent of the "shortbread tin" view of Scotland!  Think back to the days of "The White Heather Club", The Alexander Brothers, Fran and Anna, etc.
Learn your tunes and make sure they are passed on to others in turn - this is how we preserve and continue the tradition.

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## Rob Gerety

> Arty is actually a carbon-based human life form- and he doesn't use DADGAD, he's a dropped D guy.


As is John Doyle if I'm not mistaken.  I may be a little defensive here because I am frankly not a huge fan of DADGAD - and I know I'm in the minority.  I made a decision a while back to resist all the pressure I was getting to play in DADGAD, (for now anyway).  

Of course my real reason for resisting was that I have enough to deal with in standard and tons to learn! Two things at a time (mandolin and guitar in standard) in various genres has me wallowing in confusion most of the time as it is.

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## DougC

Eric you did not say what instrument you will use on the new tunes. I assume it's guitar or mandolin. I started out on guitar and quickly started up on fiddle. 

The instrument does make a difference because guitar is mostly an accompanying instrument in Irish and Scottish music. I did do lead guitar for a number of years but that's not it's main role in Celtic styles. And the recordings you emulate obviously would have guitar if that's your instrument.

 I have a list of both well known guitarists / mandolin / bouzouki players as well as 'must have' recordings in my book. There is so much stuff out there now, it's easy to get fine examples. 

This is one of the best. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...9078725&sr=8-1





 le Ceoltóiri Cultúrlainne 
The Irish Music Cultural Center has made a couple of standard session tune CD's and it is the best out there. (In my opinion but see for yourself!)

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## Jill McAuley

You can also get the Foinn recordings on iTunes.

Cheers,
Jill

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## DougC

While I'm thinking about this, here is 'the best' Guitar Book with CD. (If you can't visit with some of the folks on this discussion!)
 Frank Killkelley  Accompanying Irish Music on Guitar
http://www.irishguitar.net/



He shows how Johnny Doyle, Daithi Sproule and others do it. TAB, notation recordings.

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## foldedpath

> As is John Doyle if I'm not mistaken.  I may be a little defensive here because I am frankly not a huge fan of DADGAD - and I know I'm in the minority.  I made a decision a while back to resist all the pressure I was getting to play in DADGAD, (for now anyway).


Preach on, brother.  :Smile:  I play Drop-D too, when backing Irish 'trad, or even OldTime. The local Irish 'trad guitar players around here seem split about 2/3 DADGAD and 1/3 Drop-D. 

I think one reason guitar players get into DADGAD is not just for backing, but for the way it can be used for solo fingerstyle pieces, especially the slow stuff like airs and O'Carolan arrangements. That's one of the big advantages of DADGAD. On the other hand, a disadvantage from my perspective is how it can require a capo when a tune moves into an inconvenient mode for the open tuning. Drop-D puts the guitar into a more "equal opportunity" state for moving around to different keys and modes.

For example, see this great YouTube clip of Paul Meehan on guitar backing Liz Carroll (I'm pretty sure he's a DADGAD player based on his online info). Watch how he starts with the capo behind the nut for the first tune, and then quickly switches it up the neck at the 1:38 mark for the next tune in the set. Being able to do that _in the middle of a set of tunes_ is impressive! And it sounds great. But I don't personally want to deal with that level of Capo-Fu skills, or the related intonation issues with a capo. 




> Of course my real reason for resisting was that I have enough to deal with in standard and tons to learn! Two things at a time (mandolin and guitar in standard) in various genres has me wallowing in confusion most of the time as it is.


Same here. I've never had complete mastery of the guitar fretboard... which is kind of pitiful, after playing it for 30+ years... but I want to leverage what I do know. My Significant Other is a fiddler, and she likes playing a few Bulgarian, Macedonian, and Israeli folk tunes, as well as the usual Irish and Scottish 'trad tunes. In a tune like "Zemir Atik" (from the Pete Cooper book), you can see a chord sequence like Cm, G, Fm, G, Eb, Bb, Cm. Now, maybe someone who has completely mastered DADGAD could plow through that, but I sure can't. I can do it in Drop-D though, based on what I already know of the fretboard. A lot of this Eastern European stuff seems to lay out better with the bottom string tuned back up to E for full standard tuning. That option is also there for the occasional blues or ragtime tune. Of course, if you only play Irish 'trad, that argument goes out the window. I admit that I'm sometimes in awe of what a good DADGAD player can do. It's all good... different strokes, etc. 

Sorry for the OT diversion into guitar talk, but us Drop-D players have to stick together against the DADGAD brigade.  :Mandosmiley:  

And I'll agree with the other points made about ideal sessions, although "b) one bodhran or backing guitar at a time" is easier said than done in my area, which is flooded with guitar players. It's a very hard thing to get across to session newbies; this idea that it's usually a train wreck to have more than one guitar backing the melody. This is one area where it can help to have a strong session leader who can guide the "rhythm section" to understand how this is primarily a melody-based music, and too much backup can kill it.

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## Rob Gerety

I can't believe I am saying this - but just a couple of weeks after selling a guitar and buying a vintage Gibson oval I'm feeling a case of MCAS (or whatever you call it when it involves mandocello).  I have no money, (although there is a guy out there interested in one of my canoes) so it is particularly painful. A mandocello would solve all these guitar related issues.

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## harihari

> Arty is actually a carbon-based human life form- and he doesn't use DADGAD, he's a dropped D guy.


och Christ now we are being called on our figurative language.  missing craic indeed!

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## John McGann

> och Christ now we are being called on our figurative language.  missing craic indeed!


Actually you are being called on your own pedantic POV, and not just by me ( Try telling Arty, or John Doyle, or myself  for that matter, that we aren't 'allowed' to use standard tuning at a session...). 

The carbon-based life form comment was tongue in cheek. Sorry you missed the craic!

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## Matt DeBlass

I think what John Kelly said about actual Celtic music being often replaced with "authentic" music for the tourists sometimes goes doubly so here in the States. It seems like some of the folks at sessions or who hang around the pubs try to be "more Irish than the Irish" at times and get stuck on what's the One True Proper Way It's Always Been Played. 
Personally, I think the reason that ITM has been around so long and has such a broad appeal is that it does grow and change, and adapt whatever's going on around it into the flow. When we get stuck in "that's the only way to do it," it stops being a musical culture and turns into a Living History exhibit. 
That being said, not everything new that's been tried actually sounds good, but as Martin Carthy said, it's pretty resilient music, if it doesn't work this time, the next guy might pick it up and play it right. 
Er... I guess a bit of a tangent there. But seriously, remember this music is all about the craic, sit in and listen, learn the tunes as best you can, play along softly till you're confident to really join in, and, so long as you're respectful of everyone else's enjoyment of the music, just try to have fun.

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## sgarrity

Now that I've looked up "craic" some of these comments make more sense.  Gotta love the Google!   LOL

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## harihari

There have been some good points made--esp. by Mr McGann-- re etiquette.

There are two agendas at work.  
a)  You need to keep the music functionally genre-based and sounding good enough for the experienced-- all genres of music eventually sound similar if the peculiar properties of each are not respected.

b)  You need to allow the newbies to participate, otherwise your scene slowly dies as the old guard gets bored and the newbies resent the oldsters' "elitism."

In our neck of the Irish woods, there's a beginner's sess where sometimes the advanced show up.  Sheet music OK, play slow, etc.  It's called "The Family Car Session" and it "operates on traditional roads at slower speeds" as the organiser puts it, and it's held in a Legion Hall...the irony of Irish trad being played in a British military establishment is not lost on us...

There's also the advanced session.  Anybody can come; anybody can play, but if you are "jamming" or you are the second or third guitarist or bodhran player, you are asked to be quiet and listen.  We are fortunate that we have some very gifted modal (and non-modal, Mr McGann!) backing players (e.g. Dave Marshall) who only an idiot or the uninformed would want to play over.  The beginners do come to this but they generally play along only when they know the tunes well.  This seems to be working-- the newbies glom onto more and more tunes and turn into great experienced players.  

Also at the advanced session nobody cares if you have sheet music-- if you can play the tune well, whatever that takes, knock yourself out!  New phenomenon:  people bring iPhones and look up the sheet music on www.thesession.org so they can play along!

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## DougC

This is some guitar fest here! So while we can get away with non mandolin stuff, I'd like mention some Irish guitar players up on Erick's side of the USA. If you don't know of these guys, you should.

Randal Bays from Seattle is just amazing. He plays Irish fiddle too and he has a recording with a mandolin-bouzouki playing friend Roger Landes. Two records stand out House to House and Like Magic. 

Junji Shirota plays guitar with Dale Russ - Irish Fiddler in San Francisco, California. Despite a Japanese name, Junji one heck of an Irish guitar player. They have a great recording in 'Jody's Heaven - Garden of Butterflies with Jack Guilder on concertina, flute and whistles. 

William Coulter is another California Irish guitar player who has a recording that seems to be for the guitar lovers because all of the tunes showcase guitar with players that make up a 'who's who' in Celtic music. Alasdair Fraser, Martin Hayes, Seamus Egan and others. It's called Celtic Sessions - Airs and Dances of Ireland and Scotland.

And everyone probably knows Dennis Cahill who plays a kind of jazzy Irish guitar and mandolin with Martin Hayes. I think they are still in Portland, OR.  Kevin Burke lives there and has a guitar playing friend who's name escapes me right now, but they are on you-tube.

These are just a few great Irish guitarists each covering just about all of the 'styles' of  Drop-D, DADGAD, and regular tuning.

They also play some solo stuff which can be very different from sessiun playing.  I think that is where guys like Eric are at; the 'solo guitar coffeehouse gig' - showcasing the guitar. 

All of these guys have done that and still do 'sessiun' playing too. They know their stuff on the instrument as well as the 'idiom' of traditional Irish music. 
 :Coffee:

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## foldedpath

> This is some guitar fest here! So while we can get away with non mandolin stuff, I'd like mention some Irish guitar players up on Erick's side of the USA. If you don't know of these guys, you should.
> 
> Randal Bays from Seattle is just amazing. He plays Irish fiddle too and he has a recording with a mandolin-bouzouki playing friend Roger Landes. Two records stand out House to House and Like Magic.


Randal Bays is a great fiddler and guitar player. He's also a wonderful teacher. My S.O has taken a few fiddle lessons from him, and he has a rotating selection of tunes for learning on his web site. As it happens, we're hosting a house concert for Randal this weekend, and I'm really looking forward to that.  :Grin:  

While we're listing Pacific Northwest artists and resources, there is the Friday Harbor Irish Music Camp every winter, where people like Randal teach. Next year Tony McManus is an instructor for Irish guitar.




> Kevin Burke lives there and has a guitar playing friend who's name escapes me right now, but they are on you-tube.


I think that guitar player would be Cal Scott. I saw him backing Kevin Burke at a concert last summer.




> These are just a few great Irish guitarists each covering just about all of the 'styles' of  Drop-D, DADGAD, and regular tuning.


And sometimes covering all the styles in a single performance or album. That's something that may have been obscured in the thread above. I stick to Drop-D because it's the easiest for me to handle at the moment, and guitar isn't the only thing I'm trying to improve on (mandolin is taking up most of my time at the moment). But many of these pro guitar players skip around to whatever tuning is appropriate. After the recent Kevin Burke concert I talked briefly with Cal Scott, and he said (if I remember this right) that he started the set backing Kevin in DADGAD, then moved through Drop-D and standard tuning as the set progressed. It all sounded great. Tony McManus has some interesting things to say about the way DADGAD can become something of a cliché for backing in this recent Modern Guitars interview.

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## Bertram Henze

Just last night I was reminded of this thread. At one of our sessions, a new guitar player turns up, asks "I heard there's a session here, you need a guitar player?" and "what kind of music do you play?". You might guess the rest.  :Crying: 

Most of the time he was busy tuning his guitar over and over again, which was lucky for us, because for the rest of the time he stubbornly boomed along with the wrong chords, clearly not accustomed to hearing the chords out of the melody. Yet nobody kicked him out, that would contravene our style; instead, he was repeatedly put on track by shouting "G! G!", like. After one set he succeeded to find chords for, he kept on repeating the chords to himself, incredulously muttering "hey there's a B minor in there - and E minor!" Sometimes I could see him peering at my left hand, apparently wondering how my OM was tuned.
In short, he behaved like Mr. Bean parking a bulldozer.

If you go to a session, not being this guy will get you far. Everybody needs an experimental phase to get into this music, but you should do it by yourself, with recordings instead of real people.

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## John Kelly

> ....and it's held in a Legion Hall...the irony of Irish trad being played in a British military establishment is not lost on us...


Harihari mentions the irony of playing Irish music in a British Legion Hall - yet there is that wealth of Ulster/Scots music which is really at home in such venues, in fact is very at home in Orange Halls!
While playing at the annual Cairncastle festival near Larne (County Antrim) we played and jammed in the village's Orange Hall under the watchful (and, we hope), approving eye of King William on his white horse!  There is quite a catalogue of material which belongs to this Ulster/Scots tradition, rooted in the Protestant and Covenanting culture and a great deal of it is flute/fife-based and frequently involves that fearsome instrument the Lambeg Drum.  This drum is an instrument to be experienced when played by a dedicated drummer, though I'd suggest that you might not want your first experience to be indoors and up close to the drum, as mine was! 
It is interesting that Ireland has this great musical breadth which comes in large part from its sadly-divided history.  But all that broadens  our music range is surely welcome.

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## JeffD

> When once craic was the essential ingredient it seems now to have been abandoned, by many, as a leading principal in favour of an anal compliance to a nonsense etiquette which stifles spontaneity and massages the ego of the regulars. Can't even get drunk any more as pubs turn into restaurants and session music turns into business.


While there is some truth to this, there are still a lot of fun jams out there. Don't be afraid or negative. There is no substitute for knowing the tunes. That being said, expect the best from people, listen more than play, the bunny (big ears little mouth) not the alligator (big mouth tiny ears).


I would rather jam than perform in front of an audience, I would rather jam than play a dance, I would rather jam than practice, heck I would rather jam than eat most times.

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## POB

> It is interesting that Ireland has this great musical breadth which comes in large part from its sadly-divided history.  But all that broadens  our music range is surely welcome.


Interesting to note that in a lot of cases, the two sides of the division aren't actually as far apart musically as either side might have thought (and as some on either side wanted). I've posted this link before, but it's worth posting again:  Rev. Gary Hastings talking and playing

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## Jock

> *I would rather jam than perform in front of an audience, I would rather jam than play a dance, I would rather jam than practice, heck I would rather jam than eat most times*.


Goodman yourself Mr D wouldn't it be good if everybody took that attitude to a tune. I have to say playing for good dancers is on a par with playing for playings sake IMO, but given the choice, just give me a chair an instrument a kitchen a party and the top ingredient, good company. Bliss.

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## JeffD

> just give me a chair an instrument a kitchen a party and the top ingredient, good company.


A little something in a glass for the times when I don't know the tune - I will have died and gone to heaven.

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## bbain

This has been an interesting thread. I'm a noob on mandolin aand dipping my toe into the Irish Sea by straying from the traditional bluegrass guitar flatpicking repetoire into some of the tunes that "cross over" by not using any mando tab and playing them on mando by ear from having learned them on the guitar:  Drowsy Maggie, Flowers of Edinburgh (sp?), Temperance Reel and trying to figure out the distinction between how those tunes would be played in the two styles.  I'm also struggling with breaking the DUDU picking pattern to play jigs DUD DUD, although the only jig I seem to be able to keep the tune well enough in my head to concentrate on pick direction is The Irish Washerwoman.  At this point I haven't clue what the accompaniment would be, except that it's not "boom chuck."

Question: none of those tunes seem to be listed above.  Are they not "real" Celtic/Irish tunes?

TIA

Bill

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## EdSherry

Drowsy Maggie and Irish Washerwoman are indeed traditional tunes.  It's just that they've been done so much (especially IW) that the "regulars" are sick of playing them.  (When I used to live in New Orleans, the Preservation Hall Jazz Band had a sign up by the bandstand:  "Requests, $5.  'The Saints,' $10.") 

I regularly play Flowers of Edinburgh at our local ITM session, though some think it's "Scottish" or "English" rather than "Irish."   Ditto Temperance Reel (aka Teetotaller's Reel).  

As for the difference between bluegrass and ITM:  the main differences are improvization, breaks and ornamentation.  In bluegrass, players take turns playing breaks, and "the aesthetic" is to play something other than the straight melody, especially the second (etc.) time around.  In ITM, every lead player plays the melody all the time, you're expected to stick pretty closely to the melody, and there are a lot of instrument-idiosyncratic "tricks" for ornamentation (such as crans on the pipes and triplets on tenor b*nj*).   

Also, in ITM, it's common to play "sets" of tunes (most commonly three tunes) back-to-back, typically playing three times through a tune before moving on to the second and then to the third.  I've rarely seen that in BG circles.  

Hang in there on the DUD DUD picking for jigs.  I had to break myself of the ingrained DUDUDU habit acquired from years of playing bluegrass, but it's worth it.

As for accompanying jigs, you're right, it's definitely not "boom-chuck."  Playing mandolin accompaniment on jigs is actually pretty fun.

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## Rob Gerety

I am new to mandolin and fairly new to Celtic stuff and it took me a good while to get the DUD DUD thing down for jigs. But all of a sudden one day I realized I was doing in instinctively and now I use it on jig strumming guitar back up as well. It a lot easier to play jigs at dance speed.  The reels can be a bear at speed.

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## KCrook

I am interested in playing Irish music with others, but as a lifelong Bluegrasser, it is clear that there is a learning curve involved that I will need to work out before I would ever feel comfortable playing in a session. The part where everyone plays the melody is somewhat alien to me  .. and all those minor chords that come so fast .. its a challenge!

I still need to practice alot before I try to sit in .. I would hate to detract from a session, and being the 'guy' that Bertram was talking about is not how I roll.  So, best to keep practicing .. 

Btw, anyone know where I can find a good tab for The Star of Munster?

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## Eddie Sheehy

Check out the song-a-week Social Group.  The Star of Munster was done recently.  Lots of vids and interesting variations.

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## Coffeecup

There are squillions of tunes, including Star of Munster, at http://www.thesession.org/tunes/ in abc format.  There are quite a number of programs that can produce TAB from ABC.

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## dambekpapa

...why not just sit in on the session?  You can do that and learn.  The key is to make the experience about the music, not you.  No one really cares what someone know or doesn't know....they just care that you (it) fit in......it's sorta like talking for the sake of hearing one's self vs. talking to participate in a conversation.  Learn quietly, but learn...the problem with practicing alone is you can't even touch the number of tunes you need to learn or worse....get the feel......

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## Jock

> I regularly play *Flowers of Edinburgh* at our local ITM session, though some think it's "*Scottish*" or "English" rather than "Irish."   Ditto Temperance Reel (aka Teetotaller's Reel).


The tune name "Flowers of Edinburgh" is a euphemistic term to describe the stench of raw sewage common to the city in the days before sanitation.

I think that the tune smith who composed this tune was musically expressing the careful foot work needed to avoid, literally "putting ones foot in it" as one navigated the narrow streets of city back in the day. 

The descending phrase at the beginning of the second part being, to my mind, the downward journey of the said sewage as it's thrown from a high window to the street below.

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## Bren

Great, now I will hear PLOP PLOP splashy splashy PLOP PLOP splashy splashy whenever I hear that tune.

Irish Washerwoman is a good one to practice, from the point of view that you probably have it in your head already, although it is a bit more challenging than it might seem for a newcomer. I don't think anyone will object to hearing it well-played at a session. Tenpenny Bit is a another good learning jig that goes well with it

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## JeffD

> The tune name "Flowers of Edinburgh" is a euphemistic term to describe the stench of raw sewage common to the city in the days before sanitation.
> 
> I think that the tune smith who composed this tune was musically expressing the careful foot work needed to avoid, literally "putting ones foot in it" as one navigated the narrow streets of city back in the day. 
> 
> The descending phrase at the beginning of the second part being, to my mind, the downward journey of the said sewage as it's thrown from a high window to the street below.



Now that is totally different from what I was told. I heard the "Flowers" were professional women, the oldest profession, and that the song was in honor of the "fun" someone might anticipate in "Auld Reekie".

Of course I heard the story at the end of an evening of jamming and drinking, so everything is suspect.

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## Jock

> Now that is totally different from what I was told. I heard the "Flowers" were professional women, the oldest profession, and that the song was in honor of the "fun" someone might anticipate in "Auld Reekie".
> 
> Of course I heard the story at the end of an evening of jamming and drinking, so *everything is suspect*.


I agree.

Apparently from the middle ages up and to the advent of a sewerage system (late 1800's) Edinburgh could be detected by nose from some distance, if your approach happened to be from down wind. 

"Aye, the fluers urr in bloom the day".  :Laughing: 

But as I wasn't around then myself it may all be a crock (bucket even) of $£t

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## John Kelly

> I agree.
> 
> Apparently from the middle ages up and to the advent of a sewerage system (late 1800's) Edinburgh could be detected by nose from some distance, if your approach happened to be from down wind. 
> 
> "Aye, the fluers urr in bloom the day". 
> 
> But as I wasn't around then myself it may all be a crock (bucket even) of $£t


I'd go with the idea of the raw sewage too.  In the Edinburgh of the time there was a cry well known in the Old Town of "Gardyloo" - from the French "Gardez l'eau" (watch for the water - Edinburgh of that time being known as the Athens of the North, city of European culture, etc) which was given prior to the emptying of the chamber pots from the high tenement windows.  Anyone hearing this cry as they passed along below quickly learned not to look up when they heard this! :Crying: 
Furthermore, on our highest mountain, Ben Nevis, there is a famous gully called Gardyloo Gully, a great winter ice climb, so named because it was the gully down which the men who manned the observatory on the Ben way back at the turn  of last century emptied their nightsoil and rubbish.  Good Trivial Pursuit item, this.  Have a great Christmas!

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