# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  eBay seller refuses return - what would you do?

## Seonachan

Hi all,

I'm looking for some advice. I recently bought this Flatiron mandola off ebay. According to the description and pics it was very clean other than a mar on the headstock. But it arrived in a F mandolin hard case, barely fit it lengthwise. I had to tug at it a couple of times to get it out. And now it has finish cracks all over it. I requested a return (even providing a link to pics of the cracks), but the seller refused. Amusingly, he stated that he received the mandola shipped in the same case and it didn't have any cracks (thus admitting there weren't any before shipping it to me).

So, do I go through the hassle of filing a claim through ebay, or is it worth keeping? If it's just cosmetic I don't mind so much, though I'm concerned about resale value. But I'm also worried the time spent wedged in the case like that may result in structural damage down the line.

Advice appreciated.

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## catmandu2

To alleviate your present and the possibility of future consternation, I advise proceeding to formal action; based on the info provided, it doesn't appear likely that seller will be of much help.  Part of successful transactions of musical instruments includes proper packing and shipping method (and honesty).  

FWIW, I would always inquire _specifically_ about details of packing and shipping involving any valued instrument--_prior_ to payment.

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## Jeff Mando

Finish cracks, also known as lacquer checking, are usually caused by going from cold weather to warm weather and thus "shocking" the finish.  My guess (if the checks weren't there before he sent it) is that the instrument sat for hours or days in a cold warehouse or truck and then when you brought it inside and opened it the finish cracked, due to the difference in temperatures.  Usually I let an instrument warm up for several hours before opening the case, if it has been in my vehicle for a long time in cold weather.  I've seen the finish of instruments crack before my eyes at guitar shows when dealers are unloading and setting up for display.  It has a lot to do with the formulation of the finish, also.  I don't believe the case was the cause, in my opinion.

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## mandotool

he has to take it back..contact ebay..you pay the shipping+ insurance

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## Seonachan

Thanks Jeff, I realize I made an assumption that the cracks were caused by the case and wondered about that. The worst cracks being around the neck at the heel and headstock ends made me think it wasn't just weather-related. I did let it sit a couple hours before opening it. Is it normal for finish checking to be deep enough to catch a fingernail on?

If the checking is unrelated and innocuous, should I still be concerned about the time spent wedged in a small case?

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## Mark Wilson

> .. or is it worth keeping? If it's just cosmetic I don't mind so much


Bummer. I feel your pain.  Recently had a luthier fubar the finish on a repair and it plays nice but resell is shot.

How does it play and sound?

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## bratsche

I agree with Jeff Mando.  The type of finish cracking you describe wouldn't be likely to come from a tightly fitting case, but more likely from a fast temperature change.

And just FWIW, I have a very similar mandola, but it's the IN version (natural).  The finish was so thick and ugly to me that I hated it for so long, until I stripped and re-finished it myself much more lightly.  (You can probably tell I don't give two hoots about resale. LOL) 

bratsche

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## Jeff Mando

As a long time eBay seller of 15 years and 3000+ feedbacks, I would first check the photos in his ad and see if the cracking can be seen.  If he did not disclose the cracks, that can be grounds for a return, but looks like he says they weren't there.  The cracks are just cosmetic and do not affect anything, but you may not want a instrument like that.  If you file a claim with eBay, you will get a full refund, minus your return shipping cost, which you will have to pay.  eBay always sides with the buyer, so you have that on your side.  Question is, was it the seller's fault?  Hard to say.  He can't control the weather or the seasons, can he?  A couple times a year I have a customer return something for issues that were not my fault and in order to remain a seller with eBay I have to accept their rules and take the return.  It stings, but I figure that is the cost of doing business, as they say.  Good luck with your decision.

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## catmandu2

_Of course_ the finish cracking is particularly associated with temp fluctuations--which could have resulted during transit.  This is why you should register the problem--which provides you recourse should it be determined that carrier produced the damage, and you decide that it bothers you.   FWIW, based on your description--the case did *not* fit it; is a pair of shoes into which you cram your toes--fitting? 

Unless, you just want to play it and not worry about it.  Your decision, but you can always cancel your claim if you decide to just accept it.

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## fatt-dad

my pancake has so many finish cracks!  I don't worry about them at all.  Mines an '84 and I love it!

f-d

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lflngpicker

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## Seonachan

Yep, I've been on both ends of ebay scuffle before, and I know I can win a claim, but if it's a) cosmetic only and b) solely weather-induced, then I'll live with it. I can't blame the seller for living in California.

I like the dola otherwise - tons of sustain. I'm not crazy about the tone, but that might be due to the flatwounds, which I've never experienced before (my fingers are slipping all over the place [but quietly!]). I don't know that mandola is for me though, which is why resale value is on my mind.

BTW there was no checking evident in the original listing, though the pics are dark.

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## Eddie Sheehy

Since he refuses a Return you can file your claim with Ebay and request a FULL refund - the Ebay Refund should cover your shipping too.  It's only when the Seller honors a Return that you are stuck with shipping...

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## Jean Fugal

Sez in the listing "seller does NOT offer returns"   so there you go.

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## Seonachan

> _Of course_ the finish cracking is particularly associated with temp fluctuations--which could have resulted during transit.  This is why you should register the problem--which provides you recourse should it be determined that carrier produced the damage, and you decide that it bothers you.   FWIW, based on your description--the case did *not* fit it; is a pair of shoes into which you cram your toes--fitting?


I'm holding off an a decision for now, but I'm mostly concerned with any possible weakening/future damage to the neck, body or headstock. I guess there's also the issue of not having a case for it (I've got it in a spare baritone uke bag for now), and a mandolin case I don't need (though I can always sell that).

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## Seonachan

> Sez in the listing "seller does NOT offer returns"   so there you go.


Yes but that only applies to returns for a change of mind, etc. All sellers on eBay agree to the terms that allow buyers to return damaged/not-as-described goods.

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## Eddie Sheehy

> Sez in the listing "seller does NOT offer returns"   so there you go.


That's good then.  Send Ebay the pics of the cracks, say the Seller will not take it back and ask for a full Ebay Refund since instrument is not as described.  Since you are sure that you did not put the cracks in it...

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## CSIMelissa

Was it insured?  Maybe you could make a claim with the company that actually shipped it?  UPS damaged a Gibson guitar I shipped once (Not my fault! VERY well packed but someone opened it and played around with it at UPS.)  Anyway, they paid.

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## Jeff Mando

> BTW there was no checking evident in the original listing, though the pics are dark.


Sometimes I will brighten my monitor settings on my computer to show more details.  Sometimes simply tilting the screen will show additional details.

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## mrmando

If it's a question of getting your money back, open the claim WITH EBAY, and NOT with the shipper. UPS and Postal Service insurance claims take a lot longer than the eBay process, and if the shipper can find any excuse to deny your claim, they'll do it. 

In cold-weather situations I advise letting the box sit indoors for 24 hours before you open it. Two hours isn't long enough.

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## Eddie Sheehy

> Was it insured?  Maybe you could make a claim with the company that actually shipped it?  UPS damaged a Gibson guitar I shipped once (Not my fault! VERY well packed but someone opened it and played around with it at UPS.)  Anyway, they paid.


Forget the Shipper.  That's up to the Seller if he wants to do that, since the shipping contract/insurance is in his name.  Your only recourse here is with EBAY.

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## nickster60

As all have said file the claim and go from there if you wait it doesn't help your case.

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## Jean Fugal

I would say that the item was not described well enough to form an opinion about what is and what is not reasonable condition for "used"  If they are just finish cracks I would tend to accept them as normal. In a case is different than original case or mandola case. I once got a banjo in a guitar case, It was a fair price and I didn't expect new. Usually if the seller sez' no returns, I shy away from the deal. Good luck to you whatever you chose.

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## Seonachan

Thanks everyone for the input. Just to be clear, I'm not interested in returning it because of the finish cracks, given the consensus that they came about due to weather and not the stress of the tight case fit. I'm annoyed at not having a hard case for it, but I'm not sure that I'd want to pursue a return for that reason alone. But if there's any chance its structural integrity was compromised by the time spent in that case, then I do want to return it. If anyone could speak to that risk, even in general terms, I'd appreciate it.

Given that I first pursued a "return request", I have until Nov 20 to settle that with the seller, at which point ebay will allow me to submit a claim.

Oh, and while I was busy photographing and uploading etc. my dog ate my brand new winter hat. Maybe I should just go to bed and start over in the morning  :Smile:

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## Jeff Mando

> If it's a question of getting your money back, open the claim WITH EBAY, and NOT with the shipper. UPS and Postal Service insurance claims take a lot longer than the eBay process, and if the shipper can find any excuse to deny your claim, they'll do it.


Well, it is a question of who caused the damage, not which is easier.  If the shipper is at fault, the seller should not be responsible for that. (not saying that is the case here, don't know)  As a seller, I get that with buyers not wanting to wait and take the easy route and file the claim with eBay, rather than the shipper.  I call that "being slick" and not being honest.  As a seller, I insure shipments for that reason, damage can occur.  If a buyer sends the instrument back to me, I am stuck with a damaged instrument, I cannot sell.  I think most people would agree, that a $1000 return is not something I can "absorb" as a small time seller.  $1000 will disrupt my month, for sure. (I absorb $25-100 returns, all the time, rather than fill out a bunch of paperwork)  And you are correct, the shipper will deny any reponsibility and say it is your fault, either the buyer or the seller.  If you do get a refund, it will take a minumum of 30 days, probably months, in actual practice.  So, I see why people take the easy route.

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## JeffD

> I did let it sit a couple hours before opening it.


Was the box cold to the touch, or the case, or the instrument?

I once had to wait a lot longer that a couple hours, maybe as much as 7 or 8 before I took out the instrument. I let the box sit until it was room temperature, then I let the case sit until it was at room temperature. Even then the instrument was cool to the touch, and I dared not take it out of the case and tune it up until it was. I thought maybe it was left outside over night somewhere. 

Im really sorry. If the cracks are just finish cracks, there should not be any structural concerns.

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lflngpicker

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## Tom C

So you want to return it because you are not happy with the case? Good luck. It's an auction. There are some risks in buying this way.

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## Eddie Sheehy

> Well, it is a question of who caused the damage, not which is easier.  If the shipper is at fault, the seller should not be responsible for that. (not saying that is the case here, don't know)  As a seller, I get that with buyers not wanting to wait and take the easy route and file the claim with eBay, rather than the shipper.  I call that "being slick" and not being honest.  As a seller, I insure shipments for that reason, damage can occur.  If a buyer sends the instrument back to me, I am stuck with a damaged instrument, I cannot sell.  I think most people would agree, that a $1000 return is not something I can "absorb" as a small time seller.  $1000 will disrupt my month, for sure. (I absorb $25-100 returns, all the time, rather than fill out a bunch of paperwork)  And you are correct, the shipper will deny any responsibility and say it is your fault, either the buyer or the seller.  If you do get a refund, it will take a minumum of 30 days, probably months, in actual practice.  So, I see why people take the easy route.


If the SHIPPER is at fault then the onus is on the Seller to file a claim with them.  EBAY rules state that the Seller is responsible for the item until the Buyer receives it in good condition...  Since the Seller has a NO RETURN policy, the Buyers only course is to file with Ebay.

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## Seonachan

> So you want to return it because you are not happy with the case?


No. Nor did I say that I did.

But I do think it's irresponsible of a seller to a) jam a 17" scale mandola into a mandolin case (something that required force to do); and b) not mention this fact in the listing. I wouldn't have a legitimate complaint if it was a mandola case in abysmal condition, since the seller stated nothing about the case's condition. But I hardly think it was a failure of due diligence on my part not to ask the seller before bidding whether the case matches the instrument.

Let me clarify once again: my main concern - and the only thing that would make me definitely want to pursue a return right now - is whether the time spent in a too-short case could have compromised the integrity of the instrument.

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## barney 59

I guess your saying that you got this instrument at a very good below market price ---or ---- after receiving it you played it and it is the best sounding flatiron that you ever heard---because you were sold an item that you received that was not what was described
 A) An ill fitting  and unusable case, (if the listing said "case included" it is fair that you would expect it to be a case for what you purchased otherwise he could have sent it in a cardboard box with a jewel case thrown in and to my mind it's really exactly the same thing ---other that one is an obvious rip and the other just a little less so !     B) Finish damage that was not in the description but was present when you received the package- It's of no consequence how it happened,it's there! You can speculate how and when it happened but you really don't know. The seller should make good on the deal,if nothing else an adjustment for the purchase of a proper (used maybe) case and something back for the finish damage(if in fact that is all it is). The question is-- Is it feasible that you can get a replacement for the price you paid with a real case and without the damage? Since the seller is reluctant you should start the ball rolling with ebay while you investigate that option.

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## mrmando

> I think most people would agree, that a $1000 return is not something I can "absorb" as a small time seller.


Well, then, if you were the seller in this instance, you'd need to persuade eBay that the buyer caused the damage by opening the box too soon, and make darn sure you followed all your shipper's recommendations for packing. 

I have an instrument going to Montana right now, where it's butt cold ... I'd better remind the buyer not to be in too much of a hurry to open the box.

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## catmandu2

> Let me clarify once again: my main concern - and the only thing that would make me definitely want to pursue a return right now - is whether the time spent in a too-short case could have compromised the integrity of the instrument.


Likely, any structural compromise resulting from such improper, short-term abuse would be immediately evident; it wasn't happy being impinged as it was, but it has a short memory and now that it's free, it's happy again.

I once did this to my upright: placed it in the bed of a pick-up, and while I was thinking that maybe it wasn't going to fit--someone slammed up the tailgate.  It rode all the way to the gig like that--I was wondering whether it was going to implode when we opened up the tailgate (it didn't...still, an excruciating experience)

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## mrmando

> I guess your saying that you got this instrument at a very good below market price


I don't think $500 is below market for a Flatiron Scout mandola ... at least not significantly so. 

Either it fits in the case or it doesn't ... if structural damage occurs from stuffing a mandola into a case, it's most likely to happen right away, I should think, if it's going to happen at all. Look inside with a flashlight and a dental mirror, and look carefully at the headstock, especially where it joins the neck. If you don't see any stress fractures around the neck block and tail block, or along the neck, I doubt any are going to develop later on. 

But then I'm no expert.

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## Jeff Mando

Getting a little tedious at this point, but I'll try.

1. Buyer opened a cold instrument too soon and the finish cracked.  Seller is not at fault.  Buyer didn't know, so who pays?  Buyer's Homeowner's Insurance possibly?  Buyer now says the finish cracking is not an issue, so nobody needs to pay now.

2. Instrument jammed into too small of a case.  Did it break in two?  No.  Is there damage showing?  No.  Did it flex?  Possibly.  Does it play fine?  He says it does.  Again, no issue here.  You can't predict possible future damage from being in a state of flex.  I'm guessing there will never be a problem.  Same as if you yell loudly at your instrument, you might hurt your instrument's feelings deeply, but again, we cannot see any damage, so nobody pays.

3.  Buyer does not like the case.  You can sell the case and buy a proper one.  Everything is now good.

4.  Or, if you decide you really don't like the instrument, just sell it yourself to someone else, either here or eBay or wherever.  No need to involve the seller at all.  No problem.  Like ya say, you probably want to sell the case separately.

5.  I don't see an issue with the seller at this point.  I think in fairness to the buyer, eBay encourages returns, which makes a small time seller have to conform to a Walmart level of customer service. (even when stating on the front end--NO RETURNS.)

6.  If you return the guitar to the seller, damage could also occur in the return transit.  My best guess is that the truck was loaded the night before and spent the night outside in sub-freezing temps.  Just bad luck.  But the buyer seems to be confused as to what the problem actually is.

7.  I've been in situations like this before with buyers and it gets to a point where we seem to be speaking different languages, and neither wants to give in because money is at stake.

8.  Like I said before, regardless of the details or even the blame, eBay will always give the buyer a refund.

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Petrus

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## Petrus

I've had a couple of issues with returns and share most people's concerns with eBays peculiar and often labyrinthine rules and regulations.  I don't like the so-called "hassle free" return policy which puts small sellers at a disadvantage.  I do my best to describe items accurately.  And what's to stop a purchaser from deliberately doing a little bit of damage to an item and then claiming it was already there?  It's hard to prove unless you really take a lot of photos for your own archives ahead of time (not a bad idea now that I think of it.)

I had sold a vintage comic book and upon receipt, the buyer claimed two (advertising) pages were missing.  That's something I easily could have missed on my end (I now make it a point of counting the pages before listing the item, but I didn't do it before then); I can't prove the buyer got buyer's remorse and removed the two pages himself.  (They were ad pages, not story pages, otherwise I would have caught it; I think it was petty of the buyer to make a fuss about missing ad pages, but it's his right.)

I recently sold an acoustic bass that I had bought with a broken-off headstock and repaired with epoxy.  The repair was fine; I made it clear in the description and the photos that the thing did once have a broken head stock and that I repaired it and that the repair was clearly visible (and showed photos which clearly showed the repair.)  The buyer ended up saying that the break by the head wasn't the problem, but that the instrument had a curve in the neck causing buzzing on many frets, which I hadn't noticed myself.  The buyer struck me as a decent guy, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt on that one and refunded him about half the purchase price and let him keep the instrument (it's a big damn thing to have to repack and ship, and I didn't want it coming back again.) I suggested he try replacing the saddle and nut to make the action higher.  He was mollified, but I ended up just breaking even at best.  Not a sustainable business model.

Ebay doesn't give you an option to dispute; when a buyer requests a return, a page pops up that gives you three options: 1) full refund, buyer sends back item at your expense; 2) partial refund subject to buyer's approval, and buyer keeps item; 3) full refund and you let the buyer keep the item (!)   There's no option to dispute the return request.

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bluegrassforme

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## Petrus

> Since the Seller has a NO RETURN policy, the Buyers only course is to file with Ebay.


Which is actually the easiest thing to do; far easier than filing a claim with any shipper.  You just click a button that says "request return," type in a sentence or two for your reason, and eBay immediately puts the onus on the seller to give you a full refund or offer a partial refund (which you may refuse.)  Those are the only options that eBay allows the seller.  It doesn't matter whether the seller has a no returns policy or not.  Most sellers have a no returns policy, but they realize it doesn't make any difference.

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## allenhopkins

> ...if there's any chance its structural integrity was compromised by the time spent in that case, then I do want to return it. If anyone could speak to that risk, even in general terms, I'd appreciate it.


I'd take the mandola to your usual instrument repair place, and get it checked over thoroughly (dental mirror and light inside, etc.).  *Probably* no structural damage if you're playing it without problems, but it might set your mind at ease, at least partially.

If the too-tight case was packed inside a shipping container, with sufficient packing material, it probably didn't sustain enough of an impact to damage the instrument.  I've had mandolins damaged by too-tight cases, but those incidents occurred when I was carrying them around in the case to gigs etc., and they bumped into sides of cars, were set down too hard, and other hazards.

Sounds to me like the seller's a bit of a corner-cutter, not obtaining a proper case and perhaps not totally forthcoming about the condition of the mandola's finish.  If you're basically satisfied with the price, sound and playability, and if a pro inspection shows no damage,  you're not likely to find and equivalent or better Flatiron mandola; not too many of 'em around.  At least that's been my experience.

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## Seonachan

> But the buyer seems to be confused as to what the problem actually is.


I suppose that's fair, which is why I came here for advice. I thank you and the others here for setting me straight on the cause of the checking and the reassurance on the possibility of damage. I appreciate having this community to go to when issues like this arise.

I was never going to file a claim just because I could, or because of cosmetic finish checking, or because I feared for its resale value. I was only going to do so if it had been damaged or compromised, and I wrongly thought the finish cracks might be indicative of either.

As for the case, I'm not sure I'm fully understanding the risk, or lack thereof, of shipping/keeping it in there. If it's no more damaging than yelling at it, shouldn't I just keep jamming it back in there? It certainly won't rattle around. But since no one has advised me to do that, I'm skeptical. (By the way, two people now have said that I "don't like" the case; in fact I like it just fine - for an F style mandolin.)

Another thing I didn't mention is that the listed shipping terms were Priority, but he sent it parcel post (or whatever they're calling it now), because he apparently miscalculated the price. Between that and the whole case thing I certainly don't have a high regard for the seller, but pushing a return claim isn't going to rectify any of those issues.

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## Petrus

You can ask for a partial refund, if you can argue your case convincingly about the mismatched case and cracks. You might get $50 back if it's worth a positive rating for the seller.

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## darrylicshon

Just last week i bought a 100 year old reverse scroll mando asked her to loosen the strings before shipping,  well when i opened the case the neck had broken off fairly clean break i can tell she didn't loosen the strings,  but i took a photo sent it to her, had to send it back, but she has issued a refund the mandolin wasn't worth much but i like those reverse scroll mandos atleast i got to touch one all in all the seller didn't pack right, but did the right thing in the end without involving ebay

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## westsideryan

This thread really got me thinking.  

I am starting to get nervous about selling on eBay.  If you send out a perfectly good instrument and the buyer doesn't wait for it to adjust to the temperature and it happens to check, then the seller pretty much eats the cost of the instrument.  Seems a little unfair to me.

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## Timbofood

There will always be a buyer that can't wait for a box to warm up, there will always be a seller somewhere with no idea how to safely package, these are the risks that come with eBay or in the first case any shipped instrument.Ryan, pack as carefully as you can, mark the package with a "Wait xxx hours before opening" label (which will be ignored most likely)if you wish. But, it's all a bit of a crapshoot. Win some, lose some.

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## lflngpicker

I too am sorry to hear of the problem.  I wouldn't think the structural integrity of your Flatiron was compromised by the case unless the headstock, neck or body were actually broken during shipping, which it sounds like they weren't.  The checking was likely on the instrument prior to shipping because that usually occurs over time and is associated with certain instruments.  Gibson guitars from the sixties are more likely to have checking than Martins from the same period, as an example.  The checking on those Gibsons has little effect on their value, appearance or quality. Best of luck!

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## Eddie Sheehy

> Just last week i bought a 100 year old reverse scroll mando asked her to loosen the strings before shipping,  well when i opened the case the neck had broken off fairly clean break i can tell she didn't loosen the strings,  but i took a photo sent it to her, had to send it back, but she has issued a refund the mandolin wasn't worth much but i like those reverse scroll mandos atleast i got to touch one all in all the seller didn't pack right, but did the right thing in the end without involving ebay


String tension, while certainly not helping a neck that suffers trauma, isn't going to cause the trauma... and most shippers will not entertain a claim if the outside box doesn't show significant damage.

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## Jeff Mando

> Just last week i bought a 100 year old reverse scroll mando asked her to loosen the strings before shipping,  well when i opened the case the neck had broken off fairly clean break i can tell she didn't loosen the strings,  but i took a photo sent it to her, had to send it back, but she has issued a refund the mandolin wasn't worth much but i like those reverse scroll mandos atleast i got to touch one all in all the seller didn't pack right, but did the right thing in the end without involving ebay



I had a similar thing happen a number of years ago on eBay.  I bought a really mint condition 60's Silvertone hollowbody electric guitar and the seller being a newbie, didn't loosen the string tension.  The guitar, while mint, had a perfectly clean peghead break when it arrived.  I handled the situation differently than most people probably would have.  Of course, I had a cut and dried case for a full refund, but I decided to keep the guitar anyway and fix it myself, since I got it for such a good price.  I felt even repaired it was worth much more than I had in it.  I did send the seller pics, mostly to educate him for future sales.  I'm sure when I told him I wasn't returning it, he must have felt he won the lottery.  I've repaired hundreds of pegheads when I worked at a guitar shop, so I wasn't worried about that.  At the time, about 10 years ago, I paid $300 for the guitar and at that time a nice one went for $600 on eBay.  Now they are about $1800 on eBay and I recently sold my repaired one for a $1000.  So, I'm sure glad I didn't return it!  And, it worked out well for both buyer and seller.

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## Tom C

> Thanks everyone for the input. Just to be clear, I'm not interested in returning it because of the finish cracks, given the consensus that they came about due to weather and not the stress of the tight case fit. I'm annoyed at not having a hard case for it, but I'm not sure that I'd want to pursue a return for that reason alone. But if there's any chance its structural integrity was compromised by the time spent in that case, then I do want to return it. If anyone could speak to that risk, even in general terms, I'd appreciate it.
> 
> Given that I first pursued a "return request", I have until Nov 20 to settle that with the seller, at which point ebay will allow me to submit a claim.
> 
> Oh, and while I was busy photographing and uploading etc. my dog ate my brand new winter hat. Maybe I should just go to bed and start over in the morning


OK. Sounds like you did.

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## barney 59

> String tension, while certainly not helping a neck that suffers trauma, isn't going to cause the trauma... and most shippers will not entertain a claim if the outside box doesn't show significant damage.


No,but a big thump or big temperature shift while the instrument is under tension might!
Never done it myself but they sell these room temperature gel packs ---a couple of those and some styrofoam might not be a bad idea when shipping an instrument.

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## Jeff Mando

Picture a shipping warehouse, with a boxed guitar 15 feet in the air falling off of a forklift or a shelf.  Under tension, even in a hardshell case, the neck will snap and if the box lands flat on concrete--the box will show no damage on the outside.  Happens all the time.  (that's why they use it to refute your claim, sounds logical, but in reality it happens.)

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## Petrus

> String tension, while certainly not helping a neck that suffers trauma, isn't going to cause the trauma... and most shippers will not entertain a claim if the outside box doesn't show significant damage.


Better make sure the outside of the box shows significant damage, then.  :Whistling:

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## barney 59

There has been a big assumption in this thread that the buyer likely caused the damage by opening the package too soon --or that the package had been through subfreezing temperatures. I saw a weather map on TV a couple of days ago and unless we're talking about the far North --like  Montana high country, the weather has been pretty mild everywhere. I don't think anyone here knows where or when the damage occurred. We just know it's there and that the buyer wasn't expecting it to be there. It could have been there before it was packed or happened anywhere in route, or yes, happen when the receiver opened it. Case in point ---once I had a guitar that I repaired and listed on ebay. I had a buyer and the guitar was still on the stand from when I took the photos for the listing(my bad). My wife in a cleaning frenzy inadvertently knocked it over and snapped the heal of the neck. Now if I was a dirty rotten scum bag I could have glued it together and shipped it, or better yet not fix it at all! "Well it wasn't that way when I shipped It. See, here's the photos!" ---I had the money! 
 I doubt that this is the case in this particular situation but people get packages all the time. I get work related parts and materials shipped to me nearly everyday. Often I'm not sure what is in the box until I open it or I think it's one thing that I've been waiting for and it's something else---"oops it's a frozen mandolin!"!  Fed Ex has a whole page on how to package items from freezing-- or thawing,as the case may be, I guess it would be a good idea for all of us that ship stuff to read and follow their guidelines which I'll bet few of us actually do!  If we did then the receiver of the package would be off the hook, you shouldn't be liable for damage caused by simply opening your mail!

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## nickster60

i have bought sold things on eBay since it started and it seems lately I use eBay less and less. I don't buy or sell instruments anymore on the site. I had a run of bad luck with instruments and I don't feel it is worth the aggravation. I do still buy motorcycle parts and books but if it has strings I will pass. There are just so many things that can wrong with instruments I will buy from the big guys who do it everyday. Elderly,Folkmusician,Mandolin Store, etc,etc.

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## thistle3585

My experience has been that if a seller has sold a lot of higher priced instruments without negative feedback then they probably have a good idea how to describe them and ship them properly. If they haven't then I'd be cautious.  There are a lot of people flipping stuff they get at flea markets, estate sales or garage sales that don't understand how to describe or package an instrument for shipping.  A 100% feedback rating on selling 5000 trinkets doesn't mean much when it comes to selling an expensive, vintage instrument for the first time.

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## journeybear

Let me know if this goes on much longer without the seller being cooperative. I know a guy, he knows some people, they get things done, end of story. You know what I mean?  :Wink:  No problem.  :Cool:

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## acousticphd

I remember this instrument on ebay.  It's not really a question of whether you are justified to return something that is damaged or not as described (I would say you are).  It sounds like you want it, would like to keep it and use it.  That being the case, unless there has been any structural damage, I think you will probably be glad in the long run you didn't return it.

Having the instrument jammed forcibly into a case longways makes me cringe a little, as I have seen instruments damaged and even completely ruined by trauma along the end-to-end axis, even when properly cased.  On the other hand, if this one was never dropped or experienced sharp impact, it could well be fine.  I would look really carefully at the headstock bend, neck-body joint, and the body for any signs of cracks, dipping of the top, loosening of braces, that end-to-end pressure might have caused.  

If possible have a guitar or mandolin tech look it over carefully to hopefully ease your concerns.  The position of these finish cracks - back of the neck just below the headstock, near the neck joint, and on the top next to the FB, all seem to me what could be expected it there was strain/force applied along the neck axis, and some force of the FB rotating into the top.  But if it was limited to a little finish damage (which is likely to occur in time due to other factors), I wouldn't be too concerned.

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## barney 59

> My experience has been that if a seller has sold a lot of higher priced instruments without negative feedback then they probably have a good idea how to describe them and ship them properly. If they haven't then I'd be cautious.  There are a lot of people flipping stuff they get at flea markets, estate sales or garage sales that don't understand how to describe or package an instrument for shipping.  A 100% feedback rating on selling 5000 trinkets doesn't mean much when it comes to selling an expensive, vintage instrument for the first time.


This is true but if your buying via an auction you might find that what you are looking for is a better deal dealing with an "amateur" ebayer than a professional. I stumbled on a pile of top of the line vintage radio test equipment--old General Radio stuff that formerly belonged to RCA  --probably the best in the world in it's day and I have done some research and have seen what pros who deal with this stuff are asking. I don't know anything about radio test equipment -don't know if it's working properly or what to do with it if it was. I will list it and will be happy with a price well below what I have been seeing these things sell for. By that I mean there is about 4 or $5000 worth of stuff here if I go by the prices that dealers are asking, but I assume they are selling something that is in working order. If I got a grand out of what I have I'd be happy as a clam!  Some people do this with musical instruments --but not the people that do it everyday.

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## Colin Lindsay

> This is true but if your buying via an auction you might find that what you are looking for is a better deal dealing with an "amateur" ebayer than a professional.



I made the mistake of announcing an absolute eBay bargain a few years back on another hobby forum; I bought two items for wayyy less than their worth, realised it on receipt and relisted immediately -  and quadrupled my price on resale seven days later. I was then accused of being the unacceptable face of Capitalism by another forum member.  :Frown: 
However re the OP - if youre going to argue your case, do it sooner rather the later to avoid accusations of causing the damage yourself. As other wiser posters have said - if you want to keep it and have it repaired, go ahead; if not then eBay will probably side with you and get a refund.

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