# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Inexpensive (well less expensive than StewMac) source for tools?

## ...and Master of None

I finally broke down and ordered some nut slotting files and a fret crowning file from StewMac.  I've needed them for years but wasn't able to convince myself to lay out $140 for five small files until I'd collected a sufficiently large collection of boogered up guitar nuts. 

In the past I've used everything from a small pocket knife with ridges filed across it (actually worked pretty good for treble strings) to welder's tip cleaners, to 600-grit wet-or-dry paper around the edge of a credit card.  Results varied.  :Smile: 

Anyway, now that I've spent the $140 (plus $13+ shipping for ground shipping a box that couldn't weigh a pound) it occurs to me that someone here might have a great source for special tools like nut files from a supplier that isn't quite so proud of their stuff (I've bought other things from StewMac, too, but only when I couldn't find any other source).

I checked Warmoth first and they were about 15 or 20% cheaper on files but didn't have all of the ones I needed.  In fact, they only offer eight slotting files and six of them are basically sized for a .009 gage set of guitar strings.

Oddly, I think spending $13 for ground shipping for something that was not fragile, in a container that couldn't weigh half a pound, chapped my shorts more than paying $140 for four double-edged nut files and a quarter-round fret crowning file!

Well, I guess I should quit belly achin' and go get started on some of those tweaks I've been putting off...

John

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## Doug Edwards

Bill James at Axiom

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## JEStanek

Many people have suggested using welders files/torch tip cleaners for nuts in the builder area.  These are much less expensive.

Jamie

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## fishtownmike

I often search ebay for used stew mac tools and other brands of luthier tools. Many people get out of this hobby as fast as they get into it. So you get a used tool thats almost pristine in shape many times.

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## Hal Loflin

Here is a very inexpensive set on the bay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Guitar-Nut-F...item35a7a14d0e

No gauges listed but would work.

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## Hal Loflin

I bought a set of these awhile back and have used them on several occasions and they work great! The seller doesn't have any listed right now but I noticed he sold two sets today and will probably have more soon.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Norman-Guitar-Nu...item45f166f69f

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## fishtownmike

I bought the Norman files. Worked great for a short while then they lost their cutting edge. The problem with these are that hey are feeler gauges that are slotted. They are not case hardened like real files would be so they wear quite easy. I don't recommend these

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## KanMando

+1 on the Norman nut files.  They're really more like saws.  When viewed from the end the teeth have a rounded shape so that the string seats fully in the slot.  Cut with very little effort.   I haven't had a problem with them losing their edge.  Mine appear to have been heat tempered.

Bob

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## David Collins

I don't know, I'd say StewMac is pretty cheap on most things - _too_ cheap if you ask me. Not to be critical, but it seems to me that the Home Depot, Walmart, Harbor Freight generation has come to expect stuff for cheaper than what I think may be reasonable, and appear more than willing to to accept a "good enough" compromise in quality, just so long as the price is right. 

In the example of nut files mentioned here, I'm actually disappointed that StewMac no longer stocks the Grobet joint edge files they used to carry for nuts, and instead switched to a cheaper import version years back to better compete in the low-budget-driven market. It's a shame, as now I have to source many of my nut files elsewhere in order to get the professional quality tools I really prefer.

 Similar cases seem repeated through so many of the tools they carry. They will make many tools and parts good enough to function _okay_ for the occasional hobbyist, and maybe for light duty professional use. They generally seem to stop far short of ideal tool design and construction however, less they risk making them too expensive and loosing sales in the wider low-budget market. This leaves those who would be willing to pay a fair price for truly professional-grade tools having to either search elsewhere, or often make or have made their own custom specialty tools.

I think their tools are too cheap on average. I'd be more than happy to pay more for a high quality tool that will work perfectly and last, than get one that "works good enough" for a bargain price. As to shipping, maybe it did indeed cost less than half of what you paid to for the actual freight. Even so, a shipping department is not cheap to operate. Cost of space, labor, supplies, lighting, furniture, tape guns, foam peanuts, insurance, utilities - it all adds up. Heck, they may even pay health benefits to their employees in the shipping department. The "H" in S&H doesn't come free, and I guess I just don't see $13 as too much to get your order dropped off at your front door, especially considering how StewMac almost always manages to get orders out the same day if you order in the morning, or next day if you don't get your order in until afternoon. I'd call it more than fair.

 I'm not standing up for StewMac, and am honestly not trying to criticize or come off as confrontational, but rather just offering another point of view. I guess I see it from a completely opposite perspective.

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## Big Joe

Stew Mac often does not seem like a bargain place to shop, but you can get what you need when you need it.  They shop carefully for what they put in the catalog and take thier reputation quite seriously.  It would be nice to have alternative sources of quality tools, but it is certainly better than it was years ago when we had to make or retrofit most tools to work.  Stew Mac has put reasonable quality tools designed for lutherie in the market and makes the jobs much easier.  

You can find much of what you need from alternative sources, but Stew Mac has ensured the tools will work for the purpose stated.  The alternatives often have to be retrofitted to work or will only work marginally.  So, all things considered, the price is not that bad for their tools.  It is good to know you can get decent tools when you need them all at one place and save many hours searching for something that might...or might not work.  

For some jobs there still are not tools that are manufactured to do the job as well as you may like.  For those cases, which are getting more and more rare all the time, you have to make your own.  They are often the most used in your whole shop.  Also, you don't need every tool they sell for many of the jobs.  They can be useful, but many of them are an alternative way to do a job, but the job can be done as well and as fast with other means.  If you know what your are doing you would be amazed the tools you don't need.... and the ones you do.  Our shop is like walking through a tool store with about every known tool in our boxes.  We did not get them all at one time though and many of them are not used often, but are there when we need them  If you are not doing high volumes of work you would never need a good share of the tools we have.  However, to be able to do the volume we do we must have the right tool for the right job on hand and usable at all times.  That is not true for the weekend luthier or one who does not do many of the kinds of work we do.

Like most we are always thinking of new tools we could use or make but with as many as we have we are a bit more conservative in the acquisition department now.  Well..... sometimes!  :Smile:  .

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## ...and Master of None

Thanks all.  I've tried the tip cleaners and the small needle files mentioned above.  Both were some help but not really a permanent solution.  The tip cleaners lost their "bite" pretty quickly when I tried them on a bone nut and the smaller sizes were too flexible.  The cheap needle files will get you through cleaning a rough slot if you are very, very careful, but none of them really have a good profile for making clean snag free slots in all the needed string gage sizes.

I think maybe David got to the root of my angst - I wasn't that upset about the price of the files from StewMac until they arrived and I saw that they just aren't anything that super.  I've used them now and they work fine, but it seems like when you pay $25 for an eight-inch piece of steel it should look a little more "finished" than these do.  I.e. the only thing these files seem to have over a $5 set of cheap needle files from Lowes or Home Depot is that these have the size and profile needed for slotting nuts.  Otherwise, the files from Home Depot at least *look* like they're better made (finer, more uniform cutting teeth, etc.)!

John

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## David Collins

If it's any consolation, I've never been happy with their double-edge, two-size nut files either. From accurate sizing, to shape of the bottom of the slot, to consistency along their lengths, I've found them to be largely unsatisfactory. The individual gauged nut files I find better than the double-edged ones, but still not perfect. Their sizes vary, and you have to measure the thickness of the slots they actually cut to assign their sizes accurately rather than assuming they cut exactly the width they are labeled as. They also do not always yield a good, evenly rounded slot on the bottom, but can cut sometimes cut an uneven or off-centered curve. The Grobet files were much better in this regard, as well as having a better teeth which cut cleaner and wander less, and seem to prove more durable as well. The Grobets are almost twice the cost of StewMac's gauged files, but the difference is well worth it in my opinion. Of course their available range of sizes is limited, so I have to fill in the gaps with StewMac and other sources, but go for Grobet whenever possible. 

Likewise, their crowning files can leave something to be desired as well. I have several different types, and the actual shape they cut can vary quite a bit. Some of the "medium" crowning files I have may actually cut a flatter top shape than their "wide" counterparts. Any crowning file I get I will cut some square tabs on some brass plate stock and file them straight to accurately view what kind of shape they actually cut, so that I can better use the files with this in mind. 

Thing is, though tool quality may vary, StewMac's service is second to none. If I was really that dissatisfied with any of these tools I purchased, I could have called them knowing that they would bend over backward to make it right. It wouldn't surprise me if they would have just told me to keep the old tools, and searched through their stock to find the most accurate ones to send out as replacements. They actually do stuff like that.

 I rarely bother though, and rather just take them for what they are. Specialty tools like this are made in much lower quantity for a much smaller market than what you'll find at Home Depot, and therefore naturally come at a higher per item cost than similar tools made for a larger market. To get them made to greater precision and consistency may raise the cost even further, and thus appeal to a much smaller market - probably too small for StewMac to rely on to make the investment worth their while. 

Compare nut files to measuring calipers. Norman nut files are your plastic $2.99 vernier calipers - they'll work okay for occasional use with modest goals in precision. A full set of Grobet nut files is your Brown & Sharpe, or Mitutoyo or Starret dial calipers - as good as you can find for professional use, and worth spending $150-$200 for a full set if they are tools of your livelihood. Then there's your $30-$40 Fowler dial calipers, which is the relative market for StewMac's double edge nut files - good enough to get fairly accurate and professional results, but still leaving something to be desired when you get picky about the minutiae. 

It's a slippery slope for suppliers like StewMac. Make tools too cheap and they're worthless to anyone. Make them to impeccable precision, and they will cost too much for 95% of their current market. Given that you find them a bit too pricey, and I think they cut costs too much and end up a bit cheap, yet we both still buy tools from them, this is probably a good sign that their strategic compromises are ending up in a pretty good range.

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## rockies

Well, if you want to be really cheap (like me) get an inexpensive feeler guage set (.004 - .025 " with all the blades) fold out, put in a vise and with a small triangle file make teeth across and down the length of the blades. Now you have a set of small saw blades from .004 to .025 ". Cut your slots carefully (they cut fast) to almost depth required and then round / polish bottom with the welders orifice cleaners. For wider slots just pair up the blades as necessary. I've been using this method for years and saved that $150 plus.
Dave

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## Jim Garber

Micro Mark is a company that specializes in model making tools. I can't vouch for anything in particular but they do have a good selection of smaller gauged tools that could easily be adapted to luthiery.

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## Jim Rowland

I've been dealing with Stew Mac since their luthiery supply store was a bump out (literally) on a barn out in the county and have groused a bit from time to time about the cost of tools and supplies. As with most suppliers,their prices slowly rise. I notice,for instance,that the F 5 kits have taken a jump to the level where a completed instrument,finished,strung,and reasonably cased, nears the thousand dollar mark if you opt for decent tuners and tailpiece. BUT..they are a great company and continue to be a valuable asset to luthiers. Their service is quick,honest,and efficient,and their supplies are what they claim. I've just learned to swaller hard and send in my little orders. They can't do much about the postal charges or the danged sales tax I have to pay.
Jim

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## fishtownmike

> +1 on the Norman nut files.  They're really more like saws.  When viewed from the end the teeth have a rounded shape so that the string seats fully in the slot.  Cut with very little effort.   I haven't had a problem with them losing their edge.  Mine appear to have been heat tempered.
> 
> Bob


Well i think for a few set ups they will do the job but on a more semi professional level like i do for setups for local musicians and friends they didn't hold up to well. I got twenty good setups out of them and that was it. My stew mac and luthiers mercantile files are still going strong. I gave the norman files a fair try because i thought they were a unique idea. There have been other discussions on other forums about these same problems.

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## Payit Forward

> +1 on the Norman nut files.  They're really more like saws.  When viewed from the end the teeth have a rounded shape so that the string seats fully in the slot.  Cut with very little effort.   I haven't had a problem with them losing their edge.  Mine appear to have been heat tempered.
> 
> Bob


Where does one find these (Norman) files?  I googled/searched ebay and couldn't find them.  Maybe they're no longer available :Confused:   How long ago did you get yours?

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## Rick Turner

If you're a pro luthier, as many of us are, speed and accuracy count as money in the pocket.  I buy tools that are good, I make money with them.  The cost is tax deductible.   I find that Stew Mac's prices are reasonable for the most part for their proprietary lutherie tools. Tuners, hardware, etc. maybe not so much.  Wood, fuggedaboudit.  

You want to bitch about good tool prices, try being a machinist for a while...  Or be a dentist.  We've got it good.  

And, as has been said, Stew Mac's service is excellent...as is that of Allied Lutherie, LMI and AllParts

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## slausonm

In general I would prefer to purchase high quality tools at a reasonable price, however that is not at all possible on my budget.  I am not a Pro luthier. I'm haven't even worked my way up to novice yet. I do have about 30 years experience in repairing band instruments and I use to work for a band instrument tool supplier. Tooling is expensive to make and to keep in inventory. Yes Grobet files are wonderful, but if the supplier has to purchase 100 to get a reasonable price and have them set on the shelf for a long time to make 10% on the sale, then they won't be stocking Grobet files very long. 

What I would be more interested in seeing is home-made tooling that is simple to make and functions  well at a reasonably high level of reliability and accuracy. I've built very simple tooling and very complex, all at a fraction of the purchased price for a comparable tool. Time is the most expensive part of many of these tools I've made, which some people may not be able to afford to loose.

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## brunello97

Wow, David, for once it isn't me with the polemical rant.  However, unlike mine, yours is clear, concise and convincing.  I am a fan of the writings of William McDonough (http://www.mcdonough.com/cradle_to_cradle.htm) and Richard Sennett (in general: http://www.richardsennett.com/site/S....aspx?pageid=1) who both make the argument-in different ways-that products are too cheap.  I appreciate how you put it in the context of tools, something dear to my heart.  

BTW, I am still hoping we can find a chance to get together in AA.  Maybe we have another topic of conversation.....

Mick

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## Paul Hostetter

I'm with Rick. You pretty much get what you pay for. There's no substitute for the best tool you can get. If it costs more money, you make it up in saved time. Life is brief.

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## David Collins

Careful what you say Mick. Speak openly in favor of my long-winded rhetoric, and I imagine your Private Message box will soon be full of notes to the tune of "Don't encourage him!"  :Wink: 

I'm not familiar with either of those writers you linked to. I'll have to put those on my list to check out. I don't know if I have your email, but send it to me and perhaps we can meet up some time. Though less frequent lately, there are still a number of luthiers who meet around here to talk shop over lunch on occasion.

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## Joe Mendel

Stew Mac's service is as good as it gets. They almost alway have everything, and ship so fast you can hardly believe it. Most of the tools work very well, and on the rare occasion that something is not right, I have had them tell to keep the old one and they replace it too. 
 Not to hi-jack the thread, but which Grobet files are you using for nut files?
 Thanks,

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## Paul Hostetter

You asking me? I use a couple of 3-corners for the plain strings, and I get a mousetail they make from (dammit) Shar, which does from .018 to .070 pretty well. I don't find Grobets cut as well or last as long as the filemakers I started with in the early 60's. Grobet gets the "Pretty Good" rating from me. There have been much better quality files in days past.

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## David Collins

I have a set of 20 nut files that I use regularly, but unfortunately less than half of them are Grobet. They are called "Joint Round Edge" files if you want to look for them through jewelry supply shops and such. They are only offered in about 9 sizes in the Grobet catalog I have, but this covers the range that most would need. To fill in the gaps I use a variety of ones picked from the 8-piece set Allparts carries (not the same as the ones they sell individually, which are probably the same as StewMac carries), and a number of StewMac's gauged files. It's the only way I've found to piece together a set to fill all the ranges I need from banjos to basses. 

Just for the heck of it, I took some photos under a 20x scope to show the differences, all are similar sizes. I don't have a lens attachment so the quality is so-so, and I suppose I could have taken the reticle out for a clearer view, but oh well - here goes. 

Here is a StewMac file on the bottom, and a Grobet file on the top. They're not bent, it's just lens distortion at the edges. 



Here is one of the Allparts files, not sure if there is any brand or manufacturer associated with it -



Here is one of StewMac's double-sided combo files, which I think is just too square on the bottom, and was never satisfied with the shape of slot I could get from them.



And just for giggles, here's a tip cleaner that I think was mentioned above. 



These are all well-used files (except the tip cleaner), so some of the issues seen may be attributable to wear. I've never put them under the a scope before, but if anything this seems to verify why I've always preferred the Grobet files in their available sizes over any others I've tried. They are just a great tool company, they make great files, they may cost a bit more, but it is well worth it in my experience.

Of course here we're just talking about tool cost. In my experience, most will be likely to spend far more on bone alone than on tools by the time they really learn how to cut a perfect nut.  :Wink:

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## barney 59

I'd try jeweler suppliers and dental suppliers. My wife is in the dental business and many tools that they use cross over nicely to fretted instrument work. Contrary to what someone else said previously dental tools are often cheaper than their equivalent from luthier suppliers. It is unbelievably expensive to set up a dental practice to be sure. One chair costs more than most cars and you need more than one chair. You have to everything right from the start,you don't build up. If there is something you need you better have it, and now! Some of the  everyday stuff though is pretty reasonable.These things  sell in  high volume,have been manufactured unchanged for years, are more often than not of German manufacture and every dentist in the  world uses the same stuff.  Burrs for example from a dental supplier are cheaper and of much higher quality than anything Dremel makes.The dentist is done with them when most of us would think they are still razor sharp. They buy a lot of those. The assortment of pliers and files and edge tools that are listed in the dental supply catalog is unbelievable. They have more cool tools for getting into tight places and doing very precise and delicate(hopefully) work. I picked up a jewelers catalog not long ago and they have some nice stuff as well and there is a jeweler on every block. I think the volume of sales brings the price down and there are not all that many instrument builders so tools specifically manufactured for luthiers are and probably need to be expensive.

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## David Collins

As to the dental supplies, I used to have an account with Henry Schein, but without thinking much of it let it lapse when I was working with Elderly's. When I relocated and started my own shop, apparently laws and regulations had gone through some heavy-handed changes, and you can no longer purchase _anything_ from a medical or dental supply dealer unless you are licensed in that field. I guess applying blanket regulations to an entire industry is easier than regulating the individual products and chemicals that need to be controlled, but it did kind of suck to find I could no longer get miscellaneous burrs, tools, and other items I found useful. 

Oh well....  I do share a building with some goldsmiths, and will occasionally piggyback purchases for tools and parts with their orders. Suppliers for that field certainly do carry a lot of useful things you don't find through lutherie suppliers. I find prices on similar tools of similar quality often to be in the same ballpark, though individual cases can indeed fluctuate quite a bit. If it's a product that is only occasionally needed by luthiers but moves in high volume through jeweler suppliers, their prices will naturally be less.

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## ...and Master of None

Re. David's pictures...

Even to the naked eye the double sided files I got from StewMac struck me as being too flat across the bottom, and serrated too far up the tapered edges.  I've used them on a couple of guitars that needed touching up and they seem to work okay.  I guess the real test will be when I cut an entirely new nut.

John

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## fishtownmike

> Where does one find these (Norman) files?  I googled/searched ebay and couldn't find them.  Maybe they're no longer available  How long ago did you get yours?


 here is a new link for the norman files on ebay that just appeared recently if your still interested.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Norman-Guitar-Nu...item45f180fc1a.

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