# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  '24 Fern Loar on Antiques Roadshow

## sgarrity

Anybody seen this yet?  The fingerboard extension doesn't look right.

http://video.pbs.org/video/2183115246

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## f5loar

the fingerboard extension is correct only the binding is loose so it looks funky. If it got too hot it could cause this binding in those bended areas to turn loose.  Also caused the strings to break and possible other damage like loosen the neck joints and cause cracks in the top.  This one does not look to have been a bluegrass pickers Loar and does indeed look untouched since it's original owner stopped playing it 50 or more years ago.  This is what the American Pickers call "Farm Fresh" or is it?  The girl sure has a nice story to go with the mandolin however according to the F5Journal this F5 Loar No. 76550 signed 3/31/24 was reported stolen in 2007 from the Grand Canyon, AZ.  I guess we will see how this one plays out.

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## John Rosett

It looked like the binding was loose around the extension.

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## Andrew B. Carlson

> the fingerboard extension is correct only the binding is loose so it looks funky. If it got too hot it could cause this binding in those bended areas to turn loose.  Also caused the strings to break and possible other damage like loosen the neck joints and cause cracks in the top.  This one does not look to have been a bluegrass pickers Loar and does indeed look untouched since it's original owner stopped playing it 50 or more years ago.  This is what the American Pickers call "Farm Fresh" or is it?  The girl sure has a nice story to go with the mandolin however according to the F5Journal this F5 Loar No. 76550 signed 3/31/24 was reported stolen in 2007 from the Grand Canyon, AZ.  I guess we will see how this one plays out.


Que the dramatic music. Dun-dun-DUUUNNNN!

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## mrmando

IIRC the Grand Canyon theft turned out to be a hoax.

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

> however according to the F5Journal this F5 Loar No. 76550 signed 3/31/24 was reported stolen in 2007 from the Grand Canyon, AZ.  I guess we will see how this one plays out.


Just watched it and the mandolin sure looks like a beauty.  And the fact that it was stolen got me real curious about the whole thing so I went searching for it and found this old thread:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...01-Stolen-loar

And it seems to correlate to the theft announcement on the Mandolin Archives here:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/news.shtml

Based on the little information I was able to glean from the thread, the instrument in the theft turns out to be a reproduction model.  So maybe this one on the Antiques Roadshow is the real deal?

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

> IIRC the Grand Canyon theft turned out to be a hoax.


Ah Martin you beat me to it  :Smile:

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## Wesley

Does anyone think it was undervalued at $175,000.00 ? I'm hardly an expect - I've never even held one - but with some Loars valued at $250,000 their appraisal sounded a little light. What do you think?

Also - it bugs me about these shows that I never seem to hear anyone actually play one of the instruments that is appraised. The true of these instruments is in the tone - so why not play it for us?

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## f5loar

Play it?  Heck it would take some setting up on that one to do that.  Strings all busted, bridge post too high, binding coming loose. I hate they didn't at least show the grains on the back.  Nice close up of the labels though. 
I think his $175,000 would be what a dealer would offer if you were to consign it to a vintage dealer.  They add their 15%-20% on top of the $175,000 and it gets it up to the $200,000 or more which is the price the buyer would pay.  At least that's what I got out of what he said.  He didn't mention going to auction either which would likely bring less in that condition.  You do understand these are edited for TV show apprasials.   The guy had already researched it and called someone for that price before they sat down in front of the camera.  He likely sent email photos to someone like Gruhn/Mando Bros/Elderly and being a Fern Loar likely got that price as an offer from that dealer.  Didn't Gruhn just sell a few weeks ago a '23 Fern Loar for $225,000 and in worse shape than this one.  So do we say now it was not stolen, that it was a hoax of a fake, or an insurance scam by these owners?  The numbers match so there has to be more to the story.  Dan still has it listed on the cafe archives as stolen. If Dan knew otherwise he would have removed that and likely been able to post photos.

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## Jim Ferguson

Fantastic discussion here one & all........what a great video & the subsequent enlightening info is great.  Thanks for sharing.

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## Ed Goist

I agree with Jim, this is a great thread and discussion.
I'll definitely stay tuned to see how this all plays out...
FWIW, my money is on the young woman's story being legit. 
BTW, her reaction to the appraisal was just delightful.

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## Scott Tichenor

Ellis Hershman might enjoy seeing that video. He's with Heritage Insurance where many of us insure our mandolins. They were the insurer of the mandolin with that serial number that turned out bogus. I was unaware they had discovered it was a fake (the one reported stolen in 2007, not this one). Going to forward it to him. Interesting bit of news.

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## Rob Norton

The appraiser is Fred Oster, who runs Vintage Instruments in Philadelphia.  He always has a nice selection of vintage Gibsons, and knows his stuff.   Given the lead times in TV production, the appraisal may have been done some months back, when the economy was a bit more depressed.

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## Ed Goist

> Just watched it and the mandolin sure looks like a beauty.  And the fact that it was stolen got me real curious about the whole thing so I went searching for it and found this old thread:
> 
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...01-Stolen-loar
> 
> And it seems to correlate to the theft announcement on the Mandolin Archives here:
> 
> http://www.mandolinarchive.com/news.shtml
> 
> Based on the little information I was able to glean from the thread, the instrument in the theft turns out to be a reproduction model.  So maybe this one on the Antiques Roadshow is the real deal?


Here is the post in the above referenced thread that states the theft was not of an actual Loar.

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## mrmando

> So do we say now it was not stolen, that it was a hoax of a fake, or an insurance scam by these owners?  The numbers match so there has to be more to the story.  Dan still has it listed on the cafe archives as stolen. If Dan knew otherwise he would have removed that and likely been able to post photos.


The Grand Canyon scammer knew enough about Loars to find a then-unreported serial number from the 3/31/24 batch, take out a policy, then report the instrument stolen.

In the other thread, Rroyd reports that the scammer used a Loar copy to obtain a photo appraisal. So it must have been good enough to fool an expert. But do we know for sure that an actual, corporeal fake instrument existed? One could begin with a set of photos of a real Loar, doctor the serial number digitally, and have a fake that didn't even really exist. That would be very difficult to catch if the appraiser didn't recognize the photos and wasn't an expert in digital photography.

There doesn't appear to be any connection between the scammer and the lady on Antiques Roadshow, except for the serial number.

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## Scott Tichenor

If I find out any new information from Ellis I'll check with him to see it's OK to share.

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## Ken Waltham

To me, the on the Roadshow is totally legit, and, really looks like a nice one. Those kind of numbers should make that one surface for sale, I would think.
Fern Loars are truly beautiful, and, of the ones that I've owned, they sound fantastic. The Virzi's in those ones really seem to work properly.
I have never heard this scam story before, but, I would wager it has nothing to do with the young woman on the roadshow.

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## journeybear

The good news is, a very nice mandolin will soon be hitting the market, judging by the owner's response. If I am computing correctly, she stands to realize an 875,000% return on her grandfather's investment - hard to resist. The bad news is, I am in all likelihood going to have to keep on believing I am perfectly happy with my plain A pumpkin. This is still just a bit out of my price range. Unless we can work out some crazy extremely long-term payment plan.  :Wink:

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## Andrew B. Carlson

I like the quote from some player (I don't remember who) about taking out a loan on a Loar that he bought rather than a house. He made it sound logical and pretty darn financially savvy.

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## Andrew DeMarco

nice to see Philly represent!

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## Jim Garber

IU can see the dollar signs in Fred's eyes... I wonder what the rules are for appraisers on that show to contact the owners.

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## JeffD

> The bad news is, I am in all likelihood going to have to keep on believing I am perfectly happy with my plain A pumpkin. This is still just a bit out of my price range. Unless we can work out some crazy extremely long-term payment plan.



Were I to score what turns out to be a signed Loar from a garage sale, I would sure as heck play it for a week or two, and then sell it. In my world that kind of folding money can be better spent elsewhere. 

Even if I put all the money in my MAS ATTACK war chest, I think I would ultimate have more fun ordering five or six custom mandolins from top shelf luthiers than I would being the steward of a Loar. 


What is it they say, "I spent 80% of it on lottery tickets and beer, and I blew the rest."

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## journeybear

I'm very happy with my A. Its sound suits my music very well. It has a full, resonant presence with a lot of versatility. Which is not to say I wouldn't mind having a Loar. I think I could adjust. I can see how worrying about its upkeep and security could be issues, though. And, yes, a lot more could be done with that amount of money than just buying one instrument, however nice it is. Somehow I am reminded of this old joke:

Luke: Wish I had the money to buy an elephant. 
Lem: Why in tarnation do you want an elephant?
Luke: I don't. I just wish I had the money.

My feeling about the lottery is, you can't _lose_ if you don't play.  :Wink:  I was saying just the other day, that I've been keeping my eye on the numbers since I stopped playing, and they still haven't come in. The only difference is, I haven't been spending any more money on tickets.  :Grin: 

Anyway, that sure is $20 well spent. Heck, I'd even be happy to pay the list price, she said $600. I've got that right here in the coffee can under my mattress.  :Wink:

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## allenhopkins

One of those rare discoveries that gives the rest of us hope, that maybe, just maybe, at that next estate auction...

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## danb

Ah yes, that's Fred Oster from Vintage Instruments in Philadelphia, PA. He's right on target in all areas, and made a really nice presentation too I thought. Beautiful Loar, right in my favorite period for features too! 

His web site is worth adding to your list for vintage pieces, he's had amazing mandolins over the years.. 2 A2zs & an A4 virzi in stock right now.

A few years back, I did have the original report of that serial as a "Stolen Loar", though serious doubts were raised about that right here on the message board. Based on what others said, it sounded like that serial number was indeed picked as one not yet documented as part of some kind of insurance scam.

The one shown in the segment was examined by a recognized expert in the field- therefore is clearly a real one, and in very nice condition too.

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## danb

Just a few serials up from the http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/76547 Schultz Loar too!

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## Ivan Kelsall

If it's not 'legit' (which i feel sure it is),then it's the absolute ultimate in 'distressing' technique. I'll go with the loose binding on the 'Florida' which makes it look as thought the frets are too short on one side.I'd like to get my hands on that when a good luthier such as Lynn Dudenbostel or Steve Gilchrist, had worked their magic on it. Where is it now ?,
                                                                                                                     Ivan

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## Darryl Wolfe

I am not able to view the video.  But I was involved in the investigation of the stolen mandolin via both Heritage and Grand Canyon officials..  I find it hard to believe Fred would be fooled.  So are we saying that this is the real one with that serial number.

I do remember all the details about the Photo Appraisal of the other one.  Nobody could produce photo's to verify anything about it after it was reported stolen.  And the "Appraiser" could not either

Could the photo's have been of this one????

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## journeybear

I don't think so. The owner makes it sound as if she found it only recently, while the Grand Canyon fracas was three years ago. To quote: "It's been in a closet in a farm house for many, many years."

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## Wesley

"One of those rare discoveries that gives the rest of us hope, that maybe, just maybe, at that next estate auction... "

A few years back a friend of mine - a pastor back in Texas - asked me to look at a guitar a church member found in the back of their dads closet. They wanted to know if it was worth keeping or fixing up. It turned out to be a 1936 00-42 Martin in almost pristine condition considering it's age. So yeah - I keep hoping the same thing about the next estate or garage sale I drive by.

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## Darryl Wolfe

> I don't think so. The owner makes it sound as if she found it only recently, while the Grand Canyon fracas was three years ago. To quote: "It's been in a closet in a farm house for many, many years."


OK, that supports the assumption that the other incident involved finding an unused serial number off the Journal list

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## Willie Poole

Some of those Antique Road shows ae old, and this could be the same mandolin that was stolen only after the show aired originally...Might be worth checking into that....

    Willie

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## f5loar

The show airs tonight at 8PM (EST) on PBS.  Check your local PBS listing for your time.  Fred was not fooled.  It's the real 76550 that he held in his hands on the show.  Good close up of serial no. label and signed Loar label plus close ups of the headstock and other areas but not the back.  There was no mention of a Virzi but couldn't see it either. Likely it had one as most all Fern Loars did during that sign date.  Sure the girl was believeable but then so was Casey Anthony and Susan Smith.  If an insurance claim was paid on that serial no. I suspect Heritage will get involved with the girl real soon.

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## MikeEdgerton

Yup, airs 1/9/2012. I was just looking that up when Tom posted.

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## mrmando

> If an insurance claim was paid on that serial no. I suspect Heritage will get involved with the girl real soon.


Heritage already knows that the Grand Canyon incident was attempted insurance fraud, and they know who made the claim. What does "the girl" have to do with it? If she was involved with the insurance fraud, or stole the mandolin from Bright Angel Lodge, she'd have to be pretty stupid to go on national TV with the instrument.

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## f5loar

Well it has been over 5 years.  Stupid is as stupid does.

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## evanreilly

I think the young lady is sincere and I know that Fred Oster knows his instruments!!

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## John McCoy

> IU can see the dollar signs in Fred's eyes... I wonder what the rules are for appraisers on that show to contact the owners.


I happen to know the answer to that one.  A while back one of the ARS appraisers was interviewed on local TV here (Chicago) and that exact question was asked.  They are not allowed to conduct or attempt to conduct any business on the premises of the venue used by the program or to seek or even accept contact information from any of the item owners.  They may, however, after taping has wrapped, give their contact info to item owners and invite them to initiate contact; but that's all:  they can't make any kind of an offer at all, not even "I'll do the best I can."  And if they get caught low-balling or high-balling an appraisal with an eye to future business (even with the viewing public), it's "Bye-Bye" forever.

  ==  John  ==

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## jim simpson

> nice to see Philly represent!


Yes indeed! I used to run into Fred Oster all the time when I lived in Philly. He would approach me as to what I was carrying at the guitar shows. I always told him junk as I knew anything I had was below his league. He would laugh and nod knowingly.
Fred won a 1929 Fern at an auction I attended along with many other starry eyed dreamers. It sold for $29,000 plus 15% buyer's fee. Fred told me there were a number of issues to ready it for sale and I believe he sold it for about $45,000 a month or so later. This was about 8 years ago if memory is correct.

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## Ken Waltham

I just watched the Roadshow, and there is no doubt whatsoever that the mandolin presented was the real deal, and in all likelihood has nothing at all to do with this scandal.
I have one very close to that in serial number, and even the limey green of the case interior is exactly the same. I know Fred as well, and he knows what it is.
So, Darryl, you can rest assured that the "real" F5 with the serial number in question has surfaced. A VERY nice one, indeed!

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## Andrew B. Carlson

Maybe it's better that she didn't know exactly what she had found in the closet. I'd have a heart attack in the closet and no one would find me for awhile.

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## allenhopkins

It was a _Roadshow_ full of surprises, good and bad: a collection of fake Remington and Russell bronze Western sculptures, for which the owner had overpaid 100%.  A similarly over-priced late-19th-century settee.  Some very valuable art, including a Lichtenstein print that the owner found "ugly," but learned to love when she got its value -- and a Forrest Bess painting, brought in by a friend of Bess, a semi-reclusive painter who ended up running a live bait store.  Check out *the owner's reaction* when he gets a $75K appraisal!

But of course, the _first_ broadcast hour of the Tulsa _Roadshow_ brought the all-time highest _AR_ appraisal, $1-1.5 million for a collection of Chinese rhino-horn cups:



Now I'm waiting for a collection of old tortoise-shell mandolin picks to be appraised for $2 million...

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## David Newton

Hoot!
It was a great night for us Roadshow freaks!

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## Bob Clark

> "It's been in a closet in a farm house for many, many years."


Since I live in a farmhouse, JB's post got me excited for a minute there.  I ran around and checked all my closets twice.  Nope, no Loar.  Too bad.  I must live in the wrong farmhouse. :Frown:   Oh well, could be worse.  I could have found banjos. :Grin:

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billhay4

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## journeybear

Best keep looking till you're sure there aren't any lurking in the shadows. Especially tenors - crafty little devils. You don't want to wake up to find you're the victim of a killer banjo.  :Wink:

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## allenhopkins

*Short follow-up interview with the Loar's owner.*  Apparently the mandolin hasn't been played since her family bought it in the 1930's.

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## terzinator

Yeah, she says they're going to buy a safe to put it in. Hopefully they'll find a reputable person to give it a thorough setup and give it a go. If I found it, I would have so many more cool ideas about what to do than just put it in a safe! 

"Hello, David Grisman? Are you free for lunch?"

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## JeffD

I would not store something like that in a safe on my property. Not after being on national television. I would store it off site, and I would have said so in that interview.

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## Dan Hoover

maybe we could all scrape together a few dollars and kind of create a time share user group? :Grin:

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## journeybear

Also, she has known about it and knew it was valuable (if not how much) for a "couple of years" - so you conspiracy theorists can go on and have some fun with that.  :Grin:  But as thrilled as I am to learn of another one of these being discovered, I am disheartened by the thought of it being locked away. Keeping it secure and well-maintained is one thing, but under lock and key when they are supposed to be played is another. Too many of these have been squirrelled away by investors.

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## terzinator

Could be a situation, too, where she got some advice that it might be worth $250K when the market turns around (whenever that will be), so maybe the under-lock-and-key plan is only temporary.

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## Canoedad

What are the odds that someone has clear title to that instrument?  Maybe some things need sorted out within the family first.   Maybe we'll see that Loar on TV again.  Judge Judy?

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## f5loar

Yeah now all of sudden the family cares about Grandpa who died pennyless.  Before they didn't even bother to clean out his closests.  And maybe the IRS watched the show too and will line up for their % handout.   The mandolin sure needed a set up.   Most Loar owners I know just leave them sitting out on the couch at home.  I've only seen a few that kept them in safes.

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Jim

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## allenhopkins

> ...And maybe the IRS watched the show too and will line up for their % handout...


Not sure why she'd have any tax liability, unless she were to sell it.  Assume it was inherited years ago, and any inheritance tax (unlikely) was paid at that time.  You don't have to pay income tax unless the mandolin generates "income..."

I think she should learn to play it.  And the heck with a safe, just get a decent alarm system for the house.  The show doesn't give a person's name, or tell where they live, and the Tulsa area's big enough that I assume she can't be ID'ed just from her pic on TV.

There are lots of goods equally valuable, and easier to re-sell, in the homes of any city.  Hot-wiring a Lexus in someone's driveway is probably going to yield a much quicker and more certain immediate profit, than stealing a Lloyd Loar F-5 and then trying to sell it.  Sadly, the most motivated potential thieves might be envious mandolin pickers!

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## f5loar

The IRS watches the show for future sale of the mandolin.  Ask James Monroe about the sale of an F5 later on and how the IRS gets involved in past estate matters.  Of coarse none due if they don't sell it but you can bet your bottom dollar this F5 will be sold sometime in the future. She didn't go to that show to be the next Serria Hull.

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## journeybear

> Sadly, the most motivated potential thieves might be envious mandolin pickers!


Oops!  :Redface: 

And yep - she won't be hanging onto this very long. Not when she can get a swimming pool and a new truck with all that loot, and still have enough left over for a trip to Disney World.  :Smile:

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## allenhopkins

Interesting tid-bits of history, though: the mandolin was bought for a pittance (though a pittance went a lot farther in the 1930's), in the hope that someone in the family would learn to play it.  No one did, so it went into the closet.  The owner says that her family includes musicians, but no mandolinists.  Apparently none of these musicians thought to take the ol' mandolin out of the closet, string it up, and learn a chord or two.  Then she hears/reads about someone finding an old Gibson mandolin that has some value, so she exhumes the Lloyd Loar and heads down to _Antiques Roadshow_ with it.  Evidently it wasn't *forgotten* -- they knew they had a mandolin tucked away -- but it just lay there ignored for 75 years or so.  Odd, really, for a family with musicians; you'd think someone would have been curious, over the years, enough to take out the F-5 and bring it to a dealer for a look-see.

I concur that it's likely to be on the market soon.  Nowhere in the interview did I hear "I'd love to hear what it sounds like."  Wonder if she'll take it to Oster?  Working out of Tulsa, might be more likely to hit *Strings West.*

Oh, and the Tulsa area's apparently no stranger to vintage instrument thievery: *article.*  Says the thief was caught.

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## Andrew B. Carlson

I found an old gramophone in an abandoned house once. Maybe it's time to go exploring again...

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## Jake Wildwood

> IU can see the dollar signs in Fred's eyes... I wonder what the rules are for appraisers on that show to contact the owners.


When I saw it in the preview glimpses for the episode I did, too, I have to admit.

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## f5loar

I saw some droll coming out his mouth and down his chin.  I can't believe he didn't say "I've got a set of Gibson mandolin strings in my pocket right now, let's string this baby up and see what she will do after 80 years of sitting in a closet"  Talk about ancient tones.  Big Mon would be so proud.  I'm still upset we didn't get a glimpse of the back.

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## Rroyd

When the investigation was going on regarding the "stolen Loar" sharing the serial number with the  mandolin appearing on Roadshow, the family of the "owner" (whom we shall refer to as "Bob" for clarity in this post) was questioned regarding "Bob's" statement that the mandolin had been given to him by his father.  "Bob" was apparently the black sheep of the family, as their paraphrased response was that "dad never had a mandolin like that, and if he did have, he sure as hell wouldn't have given it to "Bob."  I don't know the final results, but at the time, it was being dealt with as a case of insurance fraud, and the Roadshow mandolin just happens to be the real one with the shared serial number.  As mentioned earlier, the photos used in the appraisal of the mandolin involved in the fraud have disappeared, but had the Roadshow mandolin actually been the one in those photos, (as someone conjectured earlier in this thread) one would certainly assume that the damage would have been mentioned in the appraisal and would have affected the insurance value.

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## mrmando

Rroyd, thanks for weighing in. By "damage" do you mean the loose binding? Don't see any other damage on the Roadshow Loar.

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## Links

> When I saw it in the preview glimpses for the episode I did, too, I have to admit.


I believe the Roadshow has very explicit rules for their appraisers regarding what they can and cannot do regarding contact with the people having their items appraised.  In the past several of their appraisers have been banned from the show (for having "salted" the show with their own merchandise) and others eventually sentenced to prison for fraudulent activity.  I doubt that Fred will have anything to do with the disposal of this mandolin.

Incidentally, the tax on collectibles is about 28% and not 15% that you may think would be on a long term capitol gain!

Sorry John  -  I just saw your answer to the question of the appaiser/apraisee relationship on another post and I am sure you are correct.  I knew at some point the appraiser could become involved, as the lady that brought in a period New England game table that she had paid $20 for, sold it at auction at I believe, Sothebys.  One of the Keno brothers who appraised the table at ARS, helped arrange for it to be a part of the auction.

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## Rroyd

Perhaps damage was too harsh a term, but, yes, I was referring to the binding issue.  It would have taken a hands-on evaluation to determine the extent of the problem and its solution, but it certainly would have been mentioned in any appraisal.

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## danb

Hmm, re-gluing a little loose binding isn't much of a problem. I wouldn't call that damage, or even an issue. If that's all that needs to be done, we can pretty much call this one "mint" !

Looking forward to hearing more.. it's a great pleasure to see the reaction of the owner too. Everyone should be so happy to discover a mandolin, eh?  :Smile:

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## Links

The word "mint", IMHO, is way overused.  An item is either mint or it isn't and this mandolin isn't.  It looks in very nice condition from the photos, but it would be difficult ro assess the condition without seeing it in person.  Like Tom, I would have liked to have seen the back.  The loose binding could mean that in the 50 plus years in an Oklahoma farm house closet it could have been exposed to excessive heat, humidity (or lack of it during the winter).

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## Michael H Geimer

I just saw the episode and wondered if the Virzi remains intact, but there was no mention of it. Anyone know? Care to guess?

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## almeriastrings

Least they could do is take some mandolin lessons and learn to play "Rawhide"....

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## Capt. E

The episode featuring this F-5 played again this week.   I have an on-going fantasy of my fiddle playing grandfather purchasing a Loar F-5 in Chicago at a railroad convention in the mid-1920's (he had the money and the musical interest), handed it down to me through my dad, thus inspiring me to learn to play at 10 years old or so. We got his fiddle and my sister got that to learn on (nice, but not terribly valuable instrument), but alas....   Might make for some nice detail in a novel.

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## Capt. E

> IU can see the dollar signs in Fred's eyes... I wonder what the rules are for appraisers on that show to contact the owners.


The appraisers on Road Show are NEVER allowed to make any kind of offer or referral on any item appraised. That would be grounds for dismissal from the show. I wonder if Fred was able to give her his card after the filming.
As far as the IRS is concerned, wouldn't the sale be below the amount taxable for an estate?

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## f5loar

It would be impossible for us to figure the tax rate when or if that mandolin is sold.  Depends mostly on the size of the Estate as probated and the tax rates after tax credits for the State it was found.  Every US State has their own tax rates for Estates.  I'm surprised we have not heard more about this Loar in the past 2 years since it first aired.

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