# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  Loar-signed mandolin banjo?

## mrmando

Seller is claiming that this mando-banjo has Lloyd's signature on the underside of the head! 

A photo would be nice. For $2,999 you'd think the seller could manage to document this particular claim. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Gibs...AAAOSw~otWcd4A

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## JeffD

It would be a legitimate question to ask the seller I would think. I am not an ebay member myself so I can't ask. (I do ebay through a proxy, a friend of mine).

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## jtsc

So interesting.  Also, FON 8699-22 - does that mean it was an Factory Order # 8699 and instrument #22 of that production batch?  If 8699 is chronological for MB's and other "banjo" instruments, wouldn't that date it to '26 or even '27, right after Loar left Gibson?

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## MikeEdgerton

I'd still love to see the label.

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## jtsc

Here's an eBay listing for a pretty TB-3 with a FON of only 8719, only 20 #'s away and it appears to be a '27.  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1927-Vintage...25.m3641.l6368

Did Loar sign anything in 1926?

I've asked the seller for an image and await reply.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Did Loar sign anything in 1926?


Possibly his rent check. He was gone from Gibson (according to F5Loar) right after the office Christmas party in 1924.

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## G7MOF

Curiouser and curiouser!

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Timbofood

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## jtsc

Seller replied to my inquiry that he is unable photo the signature until he takes the instrument apart and he may take it off eBay for a while until he can do that.  He said he saw the signature last when it was cleaned before he posted.  Seems absurd that he never thought about taking a pic of the signature.  Hey, the whole listing seems absurd.

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## northfolk

> Seller replied to my inquiry that he is unable photo the signature until he takes the instrument apart and he may take it off eBay for a while until he can do that.  He said he saw the signature last when it was cleaned before he posted.  Seems absurd that he never thought about taking a pic of the signature.  Hey, the whole listing seems absurd.


To my knowledge you only have to remove four screws that hold the resonator in place?   :Coffee:  :Mandosmiley:

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## MikeEdgerton

Four thumb screws. That is correct.

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## journeybear

Learned sirs/madams, you seem to not be seeing the elephant in the room. It's a banjolin. It doesn't matter who's signed it, it will still sound like shinola, or that other stuff. Unless it can be demonstrated that Lloyd Loar's sonic design wizardry could somehow have had an extraordinary effect on this item's design and resultant sound production, of course. Yes, as a collectible it might generate some interest, of course. But as an instrument, worth playing and hearing and paying ten times the going rate for similar instruments - not so much. In my humble opinion, of course.  :Cool:

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Timbofood, 

Tom Sanderson

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## MikeEdgerton

Actually, if it had a signed Lloyd Loar label in it it would rewrite history of sorts even if it did sound like shinola. If it has Lloyd's signature on the bottom of the head it is somewhat interesting but no much more. I'm going to guess that it has Jos. Rogers signature on the bottom of the head.

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## journeybear

Oh, for sure. I'm just shaking my head at the thought that a master luthier would have had anything to do with this sort of a contraption. Such a consideration doesn't seem to have perturbed the seller.  :Wink:

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## mrmando

> Oh, for sure. I'm just shaking my head at the thought that a master luthier would have had anything to do with this sort of a contraption.


A man who played an electric viola and a musical saw would have had no qualms about going near a mandolin-banjo, methinks...

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bassthumper

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## Ray(T)

> Possibly his rent check. He was gone from Gibson (according to F5Loar) right after the office Christmas party in 1924.


Could he have signed it "at" the Christmas party? It does have '25 style tuners but these were used in '24.

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## goaty76

If it was an instrument he personally owned he might have put his signature on it. 

Phil

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## T.D.Nydn

What's the differences between a mandolin banjo,a banjo mandolin, and a banjolin?

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## Jim Garber

I will bet that the signature is Rogers who signed many skin heads, not LL.

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## journeybear

> A man who played an electric viola and a musical saw would have had no qualms about going near a mandolin-banjo, methinks...


What he did on his own time was probably different from what he did on the company's time. I understand he was quite accomplished on the saw, not a mean feat. I usually lump the "instrument" in with other objects of derogation in those kinds of jokes - the others being bagpipes, accordion, bassoon, b*njo, one or two more - even though I have heard some amazing music come from what masters have been able to wring from them. His ventures into electrics ... Well, that may be ascribed to his proclivity for innovation. He'd already conquered acoustic instruments, after all .  :Wink: 




> What's the differences between a mandolin banjo,a banjo mandolin, and a banjolin?


None, really. Price, maybe.  :Wink:

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T.D.Nydn

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## Bob Bass

Hi T.D.Nydn-

Mandolin Banjo (MB) is the term used most frequently here on the Cafe and also in Gibson historical catalog i.d.s for the instrument pictured in the ebay offering- 4 pairs of strings in mandolin tuning, banjo head, neck joining the head at 12th or 10th fret. 

Banjo Mandolin is used by some folks interchangeably w/Mandolin Banjo, despite Gibson history and custom here. Some manufacturers have used this and other different terms to describe their instruments in this category. Vega and Orpheum also made frequently seen instruments in this category.

"Banjolin" usually describes the MB configuration w/4 single, rather than paired strings, in mandolin tuning.

It is possible that journeybear was using this term ("banjolin") loosely because of the well-known difficulties in setting up MB instruments with both ease of playing, and good tone w/reasonable (as opposed to too loud or too soft) volume. This sometimes leads MB owners to go to a 4 single string configuration to be able to handle both melody & chord playing. It is easier to set up the 8 string (4 pair) version for melody work, rather than chord work. Persistent application can yield an instrument that does both effectively. Vol Stevens w/the Memphis Jug Band in the late '20s and early '30s comes to mind on this, and it's likely that there are a number of Cafe members who have managed MB w/4 pairs of strings set-ups to handle both melody and chord work.

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T.D.Nydn

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## journeybear

Actually, I was using "banjolin" for convenience's sake. I view the term as interchangeable with mandolin-banjo, it just has fewer syllables and letters. Heck, "mandolin" has too many syllables and letters,  :Wink:  but I'm stuck with it.  :Whistling:  I've always gone with double strings, BTW. It would sound too banjo-like otherwise. Or so I'd think. I've never even considered going with single strings on one. The only single-string mandolin family instruments I own are electrics. BTW & FWIW.  :Cool:

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## WW52

I'd think if he was actually going to sign a banjo-lin (for historical purposes) he'd have signed it on a more permanent surface. The skin head is usually the first thing to go.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Oh, for sure. I'm just shaking my head at the thought that a master luthier would have had anything to do with this sort of a contraption. Such a consideration doesn't seem to have perturbed the seller.


From the Siminoff website:




> Lloyd’s work on banjos was equally astute. Loar developed a new banjo design with a hollow tubular tone chamber supported by spring-loaded ball bearings. This instrument was the foundation of the heralded Gibson Mastertone banjo line and the many pot-assembly hardware derivations that were to follow.

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journeybear

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## MikeEdgerton

> I'd think if he was actually going to sign a banjo-lin (for historical purposes) he'd have signed it on a more permanent surface. The skin head is usually the first thing to go.


I suggested it was on the skin, it might be on a label on the rim.

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## HonketyHank

I bet the signature is that of 'J. B. Rogers Jr', the company that supplied many manufacturers with premade banjo and drum heads. Usually this is rather faint and thus could be deciphered as belonging to just about anybody, especially in hazy hindsight. So I second Jim Garber's response, above.

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## MikeEdgerton

> I bet the signature is that of 'J. B. Rogers Jr', the company that supplied many manufacturers with premade banjo and drum heads. Usually this is rather faint and thus could be deciphered as belonging to just about anybody, especially in hazy hindsight. So I second Jim Garber's response, above.


See post 12 above  :Smile:

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## Tobin

> Learned sirs/madams, you seem to not be seeing the elephant in the room. It's a banjolin. It doesn't matter who's signed it, it will still sound like shinola, or that other stuff.


Don't hold back, man.  Tell us how you really feel!

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journeybear

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## Jeff Mando

All it takes is a celebrity to start playing one on tv and everybody will be wanting one....

like Dwayne Johnson playing ukulele....

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## journeybear

> From the Siminoff website:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Lloyd’s work on banjos was equally astute.


OK, I'm still shaking my head ... only a bit more rapidly.  :Disbelief:   :Disbelief:   :Disbelief:  The sheer volume and detail of information about all manner of string instruments provided by the membership here is staggering. It now seems much more possible than I'd imagined that Loar might have dabbled in banjolins, and this item could indeed be worth its weight in pennies, or even nickels. I am coming around to anticipating the discovery of substantiated evidence of Loar lending his genius to such efforts with both dread and glee.

It may be worth noting that I have owned three of these devices over the years, though none of them a Gibson. The first, a Vega Little Wonder, was purchased from  friend's sister for half a C-note in the mid-80s for the purpose of adding variety to the sound of a jug band. I was fond of calling it "an instrument utterly devoid of subtlety."  :Grin:  What it lacked in tone it more than made up for in volume.  :Cool:

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## Petrus

> Mandolin Banjo (MB) is the term used most frequently here on the Cafe and also in Gibson historical catalog i.d.s for the instrument pictured in the ebay offering- 4 pairs of strings in mandolin tuning, banjo head, neck joining the head at 12th or 10th fret.  Banjo Mandolin is used by some folks interchangeably w/Mandolin Banjo, despite Gibson history and custom here. Some manufacturers have used this and other different terms to describe their instruments in this category. Vega and Orpheum also made frequently seen instruments in this category.


But nobody ever came from Alabama with no "mandolin banjo" / "banjo mandolin" on their knee.   :Laughing:

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## Timbofood

Good to see the recollection of the "Ball bearing" tone rings design mentioned! As far as I knew that was pretty much all the esteemed Mr. Loar did to try to remove the shinola aspect of the mysterious "quality" of banjo tone.
Apologies to all the banjo players out there, just hackin' on you. :Wink: 
Nice new picture JB it rather reminds me of this :Disbelief: 
 :Grin:

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## WW52

Regarding mandolin banjos, I don't understand why some folks are dissin' them so much. The way I see it, a mandolin banjo is the most versatile of all banjos --you can re-neck them easily enough and covert them to a 5-string, tenor, or plectrum banjo, not to mention a banjo uke or banjo guitar, and with or without a resonator!

Seriously, though, I like them and have enjoyed playing mandolin banjos I've had. A decent one can sound quite good if set up properly.

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## Ken Waltham

Mandolin banjos certainly had their place back in the day, and Loar certainly did work on, improve, and play banjos. I don't think, however, that he signed this particular one. As stated, it is probably the skin manufacturer. 
Unless, it was a personal item, marked to show ownership.

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Timbofood

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## Tobin

I owned a mando-banjo a few years back.  It looked like somebody's weekend project.  Very crude, high action, poor intonation, basically everything you could think of that would make it undesirable.  It sort of soured me on the whole idea, and I ended up giving it away to a guy who wanted to hang it on the wall of his saloon.  Wall decoration was the best use for that hunk of junk, and the only thing that kept it out of the dumpster.

But I do remain hopeful that one day I might find another one that's playable, and quality-made.  I'm just not sure what I'd do with it.  I don't play ragtime or jazz or any of the other genres where these things seemed to find a place in the past.

WW52, what kind of music or role do you find them useful for?

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## Timbofood

I have a 1919 Gibson MB which my wife's grandfather made for his wife, I need to give it some TLC but, I agree with you Tobin, don't quite know what to play on it! I will get it squared away and start exploring it's intricacies, one of these days.

Unfortunately, it was "restored" about a year before my wife and I met! The job was done by the factory and the original FB was lost and, I believe the peghead overlay may have gone the way of the FB. My wife recalls that the design is not what her Grandfather had done. Sad but, not much to be done, no pictures of the "before".

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## Mandoplumb

> I have a 1919 Gibson MB which my wife's grandfather made for his wife, I need to give it some TLC but, I agree with you Tobin, don't quite know what to play on it! I will get it squared away and start exploring it's intricacies, one of these days.
> Unfortunately, it was "restored" about a year before my wife and I met! The job was done by the factory and the original FB was lost and, I believe the peghead overlay may have gone the way of the FB. My wife recalls that the design is not what her Grandfather had done. Sad but, not much to be done, no pictures of the "before".


I don't understand, did you wife's grandfather work at Gibson?

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## Timbofood

Yes, yes he did.
He was there until about '21 or '22
Two brothers, John Fred and Fred John Miller. I never got the chance to meet either or their children, sadly, grandchildren with no clear first hand knowledge of their positions with the company are the end of that too.

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## Jeff Mando

Ebay listing ended early by the seller because of an error in the listing.

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## WW52

> I owned a mando-banjo a few years back.  It looked like somebody's weekend project.  Very crude, high action, poor intonation, basically everything you could think of that would make it undesirable.  It sort of soured me on the whole idea, and I ended up giving it away to a guy who wanted to hang it on the wall of his saloon.  Wall decoration was the best use for that hunk of junk, and the only thing that kept it out of the dumpster.
> 
> But I do remain hopeful that one day I might find another one that's playable, and quality-made.  I'm just not sure what I'd do with it.  I don't play ragtime or jazz or any of the other genres where these things seemed to find a place in the past.
> 
> WW52, what kind of music or role do you find them useful for?


Mostly I just played OT fiddle tunes on them at home and generally thought of them as a novelty. They make for a nice variation in sound if inserted _briefly_ into a set of tunes when playing for a dance, but I wouldn't want to overdo it.  Since they can produce some really awful overtones, it's essential to stuff a sock or rag up under the dowel stick to sweeten them up and also adjust the tension on the head so's it's not to tight.

Finding a decent one is the hard thing and there are plenty of horrific ones out there.  I'm under the impression that most people who've experienced them think that the marriage of a mandolin neck to a banjo pot was a huge mistake. That's probably right, but they do look cool and can be fun to tinker with.  I think most of the decent ones with desirable tone rings have been converted to 5-strings. I once converted one I had to a fretless 5-string.

A lot of them tuly are a hunk of junk.

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## Bob Bass

Hi Timbofood-

That's a nice picture of the family MB, and it's still a pretty good looking instrument, even w/the factory tinkering. good to hear the back-story, too.

and I noticed the neck joint to the head at the 14th fret.....I guess I need to keep paying good attention when these pictures float by...

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## jaycat

Timmy, that is very cool, both the instrument and the family history. Not sure about that pickguard though, wonder if it might look better gone.

If you do decide to restore it . . .

"Vivian Rutledge: What will your first step be?

Philip Marlowe: The usual one."

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pheffernan, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

The pick guard is original to the instrument so, it will stay but I do know what you mean.
If there were any photos of it in its original dress, I might be more inclined to return it to is original splendor but, since they are non existent I will just get the set up addressed see if I can find some "trap door" hardware which the company did not repair, oddly enough. It's a coordinator rod set up again, kind of interesting, I didn't realize that was that old a design concept.


Mrs. Rutledge- "Why, I didn't know there was one!"

Marlowe-"Yes, it's on page twelve of "How to be a detective in ten easy lessons." And your father offered me a drink."

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## allenhopkins

1.  As I understand it, Lloyd Loar was involved in many aspects of development of Gibson's "Master" models, including the Mastertone banjos.  I own a "ball-bearing" GB-3 guitar banjo (six-string), for which I've had an RB-3 five-string neck made.  Dates from the so-called "Loar era."  The ball-bearing banjos, which were the first to be labeled "Mastertone," were initially issued in 1925, when Loar had left Gibson, and were only made for a couple years, being replaced by the raised-head type. Therefore, Loar would not have signed any Mastertone banjo labels -- or the underside of the head -- as a certification of inspection.

2.  Images with the eBay listing have apparently been taken down; does anyone know what "MB" model was being sold?

3.  There's a pretty universal disdain for the mandolin-banjo here on the Cafe, which perhaps is understandable, but also a bit unfair.  In the right hands, the instrument is capable of contributing to several genres of music.  I've posted a link to some Celtic tunes by my band _Innisfree,_ with Mark Deprez playing a large-bodied mandolin-banjo (which he built himself).  If you have a chance, listen and see if you don't agree the instrument's well-suited for this style, not overly raucous or harsh -- and well-played by Mark:

*Irish Washerwoman/Swallowtail Jig/Saddle the Pony*

*PS:* I'm playing a Sobell mandola; other musicians are Kathleen Cappon on 12-string guitar, Barbara Jablonski on hammered dulcimer.

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Randolph, 

WW52

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## Jeff Mando

> 2.  Images with the eBay listing have apparently been taken down; does anyone know what "MB" model was being sold?


If you click the link above and then click to the right of the title where it says "see original listing", then you can view the pictures.

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## Bob Bass

Hi Allen-

very nicely played by everyone!

thanks for posting the medley!

Bob

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allenhopkins

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## Timbofood

Allen, you and I are mostly on the same page with respect to instruments generally less "appreciated" than the norm. Frankly, I wish "norm" would lighten up, even just a little bit.
From what I gather, the MB I have has made several people do the "happy" dance when they see the bloomin' case! I am totally on board with the realization that this style of instrument is really more narrowly scoped with respect to genre of music played. Disdain? Sure, choose what you play on one, "Rawhide" may not be the best application. A ragtime piece? You bet! The mandolin banjo is. Let's face it, not quite the best of either but, it can still be enjoyed! I think I have to just get on it and start using this little wonder!  Apologies to all the Vega fans!
As for fun, funky, banjo family pals...I want a Vega banjaurine! Something like a sixteen inch scale(?) I had a friend who owned one, it was really fun!

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allenhopkins

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## f5loar

That's a good FON for a 1927 MB-2 and that's exactly what it looks like.  No Mr. Loar did not sign any banjos with his famous label.  And yes, he was long gone when this mandolin-banjo was being built.  I'm surprised this seller even knew Loar had anything to do with the 20's banjos.  Signed inside?  If Loar had signed it the seller would show that detailed photo.  I don't buy the crap he was too lazy to take the back off again.  Something smells here and it's not just the high price.

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## WW52

> 3.  There's a pretty universal disdain for the mandolin-banjo here on the Cafe, which perhaps is understandable, but also a bit unfair.  In the right hands, the instrument is capable of contributing to several genres of music.  I've posted a link to some Celtic tunes by my band _Innisfree,_ with Mark Deprez playing a large-bodied mandolin-banjo (which he built himself).  If you have a chance, listen and see if you don't agree the instrument's well-suited for this style, not overly raucous or harsh -- and well-played by Mark:
> 
> *Irish Washerwoman/Swallowtail Jig/Saddle the Pony*


Allen... Yes, that mandolin banjo does sound nice and works really well there. A very well done set.

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allenhopkins

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## journeybear

> Don't hold back, man.  Tell us how you really feel!


I guess I *should* say how I really feel. Even though I vastly prefer the sound of mandolin to banjolin, I don't really have an ax to grind with these hybrid instruments, nor the musicians who play them, nor the music played on them. Not altogether. I did say, I've owned three of them, and played one - occasionally, not all the time - in a band for years. I have more of a problem with the sound of cheap instruments, which can be really painful to my ears, even more so if they are loud. That Little Wonder was one such - as I said, utterly devoid of subtlety. Subtlety wasn't really being called for in the songs in which I was playing it, so this point was really moot. 

I did eventually trade it for a much older instrument with a smaller body and skin head, which produced a kinder, gentler, sweeter sound. This was a vast improvement, and I would probably still be playing it today - could have used it in the skiffle band - if it weren't for the fact that when the skin broke and needed to be replaced, my luthier said it needed so much work on the warped neck and some other issues that it would cost $200-300. This was more than I was interested in paying, particularly since I was no longer in the jug band, so I told him I'd think about it and left it with him meanwhile. It may still be in his shop's basement decades later.  :Confused:  I picked up a new inexpensive one early this year to use in the skiffle band, but it needed some set-up work to be playable, mainly where intonation is concerned. The band hit the skids not long after, so it was not the best instrument purchase of my career.  :Frown: 

Now, I could have said all or some of that earlier, but you know what? There's not a whole lot of funny in it. The instrument that started this discussion and the circumstances thereunto appertaining seemed to call for some humor, so that's the direction I took. If I ruffled anyone's feathers in the process, I apologize, though not whole-heartedly. I'm still not crazy about these babies, and even though I admit some of my attitude toward them has been affected by my encounters with inexpensive examples and my own capabilities regarding playing them, this is probably not going to change much. Nor should the attitude of anyone reading this. Mine is but one small voice in a dithering din of opinions being bandied about, so what does it matter? The twenty minutes I spent composing represents more time spent thinking about banjolins than I have done in unmeasurable time. Take it with several grains of salt; that way it may indeed taste like something.  :Grin:

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## Timbofood

I know what you mean JB. Subtle, they ain't. Interesting they may well be.
Proper seasoning improves most things.
Merry Christmas JB

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## journeybear

Yes, it does. Especially in matters concerning grilling (as I'm sure you know) and making soup (as JeffD and I concur).  :Grin:  Some instruments can be helped only so much. My late lamented F-12 Mandy Lynn, which I had for thirty years before being stolen, took forever to open up some, and that took a LOT of playing. She was a mid-to-late 1970s model, which seems to have been a low point in Gibson's history. Just my luck, I reckon. So it goes. 

It's worth mentioning that same luthier had one of Charlie Daniels' banjos on his bench when I dropped by one time. He said it was worth $50,000. I was astonished, and asked how could this be, what would make a banjo be worth that much. He said I should play it and see. I can't play one, but I gave it a few strokes, and that thing rang like a bell, echoed like a wooded vale, burbled like a mountain stream, whispered like a summer breeze. It was astounding. Such things are possible when a master craftsman puts his skill and expertise into his work.

Please don't quote me next time we get into banjo joke territory.  :Whistling:

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## skipdog

Lloyd Loar was a visionary with the gumschun on how to make, what he concidered extensively, to be the best acousticly resonant mandolins. He was NOT a builder, he was an acoustic engineer/ designer. His signature is worth $100,000, and these most sought after Lloyd Loar Era mandolins were made during the banjo explosion of the roaring twenties. I would guess that after his trap door banjo invention was denied his feelings for the contraption would have left a very bad taste in his mouth and contempt for the instrument and I feel he would NEVER have signed anything that resembled a banjo.

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## skipdog

No difference, they are all worth about two hundred fifty dollars.

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## skipdog

As my mentor and mandolin teacher Jethro Burns would say," those bluegrass players will take a five thousand dollar mandolin and make it sound just like a twenty dollar snare drum!" Lloyd Loar 
DID NOT sign this instrument and Robert Johnson did NOT sell his soul to the devil!

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## skipdog

Journeybear, I have come to the same view as you 'cept I never purchased to arrive at this conclusion. I am a wide neck, inch and a quarter, mandolin player, I am fascinated by the Lloyd Loar story. Too bad he sent  everybody down the narrow neck road, with flat fret boards and skinny frets, traditional, and then gets sent pack in' from Gibson after their 1924 Christmas party. The man with "the hundred thousand dollar signature".

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## Timbofood

So JB, your waxing poetic about a banjo makes me wonder if you've got one hidden away under a bed somewhere!  A friend of longstanding made me the keeper of his 1890's vintage Washburn. I have not made the time to actually do anything with it and I've had it almost a year! I learned how to play on another friends like design Washburn so, I do have projects on that score for the coming year!
Merry Christmas!

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## JeffD

I am still smiling about 


> circumstances thereunto appertaining


Woo hoo. I love it.




> Touching the order and manner of all which things are done, with the notes, arguments, and all circumstances thereunto pertaining to deduce the matter from the beginning, leaving out nothing (as near as we may) that shall seem necessary to be added


There is a fellow I met at Clifftop that refurbishes old banjo-mandolins, and strings them with nylon. I played an old Clarophone, same brand as my tenor banjo, and truth is, I kind of liked the sound. Actually, I really liked the sound.

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## slimt

So why was Loar gone from Gibson in 1924? Not being productive enough? and why was the F5 the only one to gain popularity? and none of the other era Instruments?  anyone from that era still around that has the right answers?   

Im learning here..

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## Jeff Mando

> anyone from that era still around that has the right answers?


Let's see....that was 91 years ago.  If you were 18 back then, you would be 109 now.......more than likely if you were in a position to know the answers, you were older than 18 by a good bit.....just applying some logic.  I guess it would be a simple matter to round up all the former Kalamazoo employees 109 years old or older and interview them on the matter....at least the ones with sound minds....don't think it would take too long................. :Mandosmiley:

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## Timbofood

I have a buddy that owns an old Bacon MB, strung very very lightly, nifty as all get out!  I think mine (well, my wife's) was strung, too heavily. I need to restring it more delicately and get it set up, one of these days.

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## MikeEdgerton

> So why was Loar gone from Gibson in 1924? Not being productive enough? and why was the F5 the only one to gain popularity? and none of the other era Instruments?  anyone from that era still around that has the right answers?   
> 
> Im learning here..


Nobody knows for sure, but one can guess. The mandolin had dropped from favor as the instrument of choice in the US. The banjo was king. Loar was brought in to bring the mandolin back to it's former glory. As good as he was nobody could have done that. F5loar attributes his sudden departure to something that happened at the Gibson Christmas party that year. That's tongue in cheek but Loar was gone by the end of the year.

The F5 is the popular instrument it is today because Bill Monroe saw one hanging in a Florida barbershop window for sale used in the early 40's and bought it. That mandolin became the bluegrass standard. Others played the F5 but none had the effect on the market that Monroe had. Keep in mind Loar didn't build instruments at Gibson he designed and approved them.

Roger Siminoff has a page devoted to Loar that can found *here*.

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## Timbofood

I kind of like the Christmas party faux pas idea! It cracks me up living in the bastion of Dutch conservativism that Kalamazoo strives to be! It still is somewhat lost in the '80's on some fronts. The idea of the starched collars and neckties "cutting loose" at a company party makes he smile! 
Thanks Mike for reminding us "Why the F-5 is the instrument of choice" in the bluegrass genre.
Merry Christmas!
Oh, that would be the 1880's BTW :Grin:

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## Ken Waltham

> So why was Loar gone from Gibson in 1924? Not being productive enough? and why was the F5 the only one to gain popularity? and none of the other era Instruments?  anyone from that era still around that has the right answers?   
> 
> Im learning here..


Just one point. I think it may be safe to say that the real success of Lloyd was perhaps the L5 guitar. As mandolin players, we tend to overlook it, but, it changed the role of the guitar forever. All modern archtops are based on the L5, and it became the instrument of choice for big band and jazz players alike. Still produced and loved today. I can hardly imagine that Loar could have foreseen such a thing at the time, the L5 seems almost like an afterthought in the Style 5 lineup.

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MikeEdgerton, 

Timbofood

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## Hendrik Ahrend

What Ken said. Also, I find it interesting that the starting list price of the F5 was a bold $ 431.60 (in August '22), which dropped down to a mere $ 250 in 1923; the F5 was a shelf-hugger, and Loar was its creator to a large degree.

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## Mandoplumb

It's easy to say the F-5 is the bluegrass mandolin because Bill Monroe played one, and to a certain extent that is true, but the fact is the F5 and its decendents are so much better suited for BG than any mandolin before Loar, so Loar did what Gibson hired him to do it just took 20+ years for it to happen.

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## allenhopkins

> ...the F5 and its decendents are so much better suited for BG than any mandolin before Loar, so Loar did what Gibson hired him to do it just took 20+ years for it to happen.


Except there _was_ no bluegrass when Lloyd Loar developed the "Master Model" carved-top, f-hole mandolins and guitars at Gibson.  Loar himself apparently visualized the F-5 as being used for classical, or at least orchestral, music -- one reason why he went beyond Orville G's designs and made the mandolin even more violin-like.

The F-5 design did produce an instrument with exceptional projection and tone; mandolinists like Dave Apollon, who played everything from jazz to pop to ethnic music -- very flamboyantly, with amazing technique -- used Gibson F-5's  (Actually, there _were_ no mandolinists "like Dave Apollon!")  And of course Bill Monroe found Gibson mandolins, first an F-7, then his Loar F-5, to be perfect for the music he was developing through the late 1920's, that culminated in his 1946 band with Flatt, Scruggs, Wise, _et. al._

Would/did Lloyd Loar feel vindicated when Monroe's F-5 became the iconic mandolin?  Well, he died in 1943, before "bluegrass" was even a recognized genre.  There's no record that he was a fan of "hillbilly" music, listened to the pre-Scruggs Monroe bands, or even spent much time thinking about the "heritage" he left at Gibson.  He was on to Vivi-Tone, other acoustic experiments, relatively unknown and unsuccessful compared to his time at Gibson.

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Timbofood

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## Mandoplumb

Everything allenhopkins said is true. My point was that Loar did what Gibson wanted in spite of whatever he personally was trying to do. Gibson became " the" mandolin to own and the best selling mandolin for at least 35 to 40 years.

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allenhopkins

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## Timbofood

So fellers, I got a kwestin'?
Chikkin or ayg?
Now, obnoxiousness aside, I just have to think that even Bill had an inkling of the idea he was on to something. He had recorded and performed on other models for some time. The "Grail" mandolin was as much luck as choice, let's get back to earth. Loar did his job, Bill found one, made a musical impact. I think one might just as easily infer that were it not for Perlman there would be no interest in Stradivarius! But, what does any of this have to do with mandolin banjos?
The mechanics have nothing, or everything, to do with the excitement over any instrument. 
Loar's "hot" year was (arguably) '23 so, it's more like 90 years, pretty far from 40 or am I being obtuse?  :Wink:

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## allenhopkins

> ...I just have to think that even Bill had an inkling of the idea he was on to something. He had recorded and performed on other models for some time. The "Grail" mandolin was as much luck as choice, let's get back to earth.


Monroe did keep his eye out for good instruments as he and his band toured; he had a favorite D-28 guitar, which he had his guitarists play on many recordings, and regarding his Lloyd Loar mandolin,  he stated to Charles Wolfe, as quoted in Richard Smith's _Can't You Hear Me Callin': The Life of Bill Monroe_ (p.78): _"...that mandolin will always come through for you.  It's got plenty of volume and it carries good, and if you want to soften up it's got a beautiful tone.  So it's just perfect for what we use it for."_  I wouldn't ascribe his use of #73987 just to luck; Monroe would have kept looking until he found the instrument that he thought was best-suited for his music.




> Loar did his job, Bill found one, made a musical impact. I think one might just as easily infer that were it not for Perlman there would be no interest in Stradivarius!


Not quite; Strads were considered the apex of violin design and construction long before he came along, and commanded premium prices back in the 19th century, if not before.




> But, what does any of this have to do with mandolin banjos?


Not much -- but a fair amount with Lloyd Loar, and why his disputable signature on the head of an instrument he probably never saw during construction, would enhance its value.





> The mechanics have nothing, or everything, to do with the excitement over any instrument.


In this case, the mechanics -- design -- of the MB-3 have very little to do with the presence or absence of a Loar signature.  Mandolin-banjos are pretty common, and older Gibsons are at the highest end of the market, but generally less in-demand than comparable mandolins -- or 5-string and tenor banjos -- of the same vintage.  Only thing that makes this one more than usually interesting, is the seller's contention that Loar signed it.




> ...am I being obtuse?


Nah.

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Timbofood

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## Mark Wilson

Well answered Allen but you left out..



> Chikkin or ayg?

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allenhopkins

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## Mandoplumb

This discussion has nothing to do with the OP's original post. That's never happened before on this forum has it?

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## mrmando

I am the OP and I don't mind a bit.

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## journeybear

> This discussion has nothing to do with the OP's original post. That's never happened before on this forum has it?


Only on rare occasions.  :Whistling: 




> Well answered Allen but you left out..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Timbofood
> 
> ...




 :Whistling:

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Petrus, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

Allen, I was really just using Perlman as an example, but you make a valid point indeed.
Mandoplumb, we never stray from the OP! This is the first time I've seen any divergence from it. :Laughing: 
Martin, glad you don't mind. Good sport!
Mark, I knew JB would provide a reference sooner or later.
Merry Christmas to all!

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allenhopkins, 

journeybear

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## slimt

I don't mind reading..  :Smile:

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## mrmando

Look, there are some times when I'm looking for a specific piece of information and the conversation goes off the rails and my question never gets answered, and those times do grate my cheese a little bit. But other times, like this one, I'm just throwing something interesting out for discussion.

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journeybear

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## Timbofood

There's always tons of good information here, some of it isn't always what one might be originally looking for but, then there is all the fun of threads like this, I love all this. The brain is happiest when it's working, I'm usually pretty happy here.
You guys share so much so freely it's just fun to read!
Nice conversation starter Martin.

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## slimt

> Seller is claiming that this mando-banjo has Lloyd's signature on the underside of the head! 
> 
> A photo would be nice. For $2,999 you'd think the seller could manage to document this particular claim. 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Gibs...AAAOSw~otWcd4A


Not a Loar sig at all..  got the answer required from the banjo seller..

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allenhopkins

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## journeybear

Dang!  :Mad:  And I was really hoping, too ...  :Crying:

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## LazyRiver

I have a Gibson Jr mandolin banjo. There's a "signature" (really just script) on the underside of the skin head which says J?? B Rogers Jr (probably Jos B Rogers Jr). Below that in caps and smaller type: UNION BRAND WARRANTED. Both appear to be stamped. I would say it's more a seal of quality approval than anything else. A quick search on Google doesn't turn up very much.

BTW - I really like my MBs. I also have a Vega Little Wonder, which I like a bit better than the Gibson. I'm using ultra light strings on both (.009, .013, .020, .032"). These critters can be played very beautifully. They can also kick butt in a jazz setting with brass instruments. I've tried the Gibson in combo with tenor sax, baritone horn, and drum set. It holds its own very nicely. Another name for these guys is soprano banjo, since the tenor is an evolution of same.

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## MikeEdgerton

Actually that's the name of the company that made the banjo head. Jos. B. Rogers Company. One of their locations was in Farmingdale, NJ near where I live. They made drum heads and thus banjo heads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_Drums

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Jess L.

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## LazyRiver

Thanks for clearing that up.

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