# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  I don't like the sound of tremolo.

## fscotte

Whether it's flemenco guitar, acoustic guitar (i really hate it on acoustic), or even mandolin, I simply have never liked the sound of tremolo.  No matter the tempo of the music I can just never find myself saying, wow that really fits, or that really sounds good.  And I don't mean my own playing either, I mean on anything, anywhere, any music.  

I guess the mandolin is the best instrument for tremolo - I guess if I had to choose my favorite then it would be mandolin.  But I really don't want to play it.  Here's the problem however, I cannot find a good substitute for tremolo.  What else do I do when I come to a part in music that just screams for tremolo?  You know the classics where God comes down and says, YOU HAVE TO PLAY TREMOLO HERE OR LOSE YOUR SOUL FOREVER!  I guess I'm not good enough because I don't know what else to do.  

You know violin can just play the same note forever to fill in that space, piano has sustain.  For those that hate tremolo too, what do you do?  Is there some other technique that will fill the space?

----------


## Dan Johnson

if it's worth losing your soul forever.. you could do a variation on a crosspicking thing like Mr. McReynolds... but I think if tremolo bugs you crosspicking might, too

----------


## AlanN

What?! 

You mean that 12 bar trem that Tony Rice does on Mar West is no good? Well, I never....!

----------


## M.Marmot

i don't know why but i found your thread title hilarious... nearly spat my coffee on the screen.

it seems like one of those moments where in a noisy bar, suddenly everyone goes quite, and you find yourself shouting something terrible or embarassing for all to hear.

I suppose that tremolo can be quite upsetting for some, especially bad tremolo, but then if that was the case for me i would'nt be picking up mandolin anytime soon. Tremolo is actually one of the areas i am really interested in right now, thanks mostly to listening to Mike Compton's playing.

So, i can't answer your question directly in that i dont really have any substitution for temolo other than playing open chords/double stops and letting them ring out, but answering indirectly, i would suggest that you could search out mandolin players who use tremolo well and inventively and i'll imagine that way you might find that maybe, just maybe, not all tremolo is terrible.

----------


## Jacob Hagerty

Tremolo is the Mandolins sustain. it is a feeling that works well on waltzes.  (when u are amplified the sustain is much longer)  it's ok if u dont like it there is no rule saying Mandolin has to tremolo.  your could try something simple like an arpeggio of the chord. where it recommends the unliked tremolo.  but keep in mind it is a good tool to keep in your little tool belt.  i Agree with post above me too

----------


## fscotte

Specifically speaking, a song like Banks of the Ohio, if played at the usual slower tempo, simply screams for tremolo.  What would you guys do if you couldn't tremolo and still make it sound interesting?

----------


## Jacob Hagerty

i would use arpeggios if no tremolo was allowed  :Smile:   like this key of D Maj open d string 2 twice "I ASKED" d string 2nd fret E "MY" d string 4th fret (F#) "LOVE" Tremolo right well instead of tremolo try 4th fret then the open A then the 2nd fret B note then the A and back to the 4th fret on the D string and continue onward with the song very very easy way around the tremolo is use other notes that work.

----------


## Fred Keller

There's different kinds of tremolo to consider.  The kind we appear to be discussing here is the really fast, sounds-like-one-long-note kind.  But you can slow it down and it's still tremolo.  For example, if the "fast tremolo" is cooking along at something like 4-8 pick strokes per quarter note (16-32 pick strokes in one measure of 4/4 time; adjust accordingly for waltz), then you halve it.  Instead of one-ee-and-ah two-ee-and-ah, play one-and two-and.  Maybe that moves you away from the tremolo sound you don't like but still fills up the soundscape.

----------


## JeffD

What do you think of double stop tremolo? Instead of extending the length of one note, bring in a high lonesome harmony. Let the coyotes out.

The best tremolo, IMO, is when you don't hear it. What I mean is that it fits so comfortably in the music that you don't notice it, the tune just flows, and you don't see the wheels and gears, like tremolo, that make it work.

----------


## pglasse

I'm really not trying to be a "smart alec" here.... Often, in certain styles of music, sustain and space can be better options. Though using these tools can run contrary to our mandolinist reflexes.

Paul Glasse
Austin Texas
http://paulglasse.com

----------

Paul Statman

----------


## Jim MacDaniel

Sounds like you chose the wrong instrument.  :Wink:  

Perhaps an instrument with more sustain might click better with your, such as a longer scale and/or larger body mandolin family instrument, or guitar?

----------


## fscotte

> There's different kinds of tremolo to consider.  The kind we appear to be discussing here is the really fast, sounds-like-one-long-note kind.  But you can slow it down and it's still tremolo.  For example, if the "fast tremolo" is cooking along at something like 4-8 pick strokes per quarter note (16-32 pick strokes in one measure of 4/4 time; adjust accordingly for waltz), then you halve it.  Instead of one-ee-and-ah two-ee-and-ah, play one-and two-and.  Maybe that moves you away from the tremolo sound you don't like but still fills up the soundscape.


Are you referring to the type of sound Adam Steffey gets?  It sounds like he doesn't do really fast tremolo but I'm not sure is he just slowing the tremolo down a bit?

----------


## JeffD

> I'm really not trying to be a "smart alec" here.... Often, in certain styles of music, sustain and space can be better options.


Very true. And I understand, you are not just refering to the mandolin sitting out for a spell, you are talking about within a break or a solo, letting in some air, letting the notes land gently on the water before you start taking up the slack.

Jeeez, I need to go fishing.

----------


## Jacob Hagerty

i did a workshop with Steffey where he talked about his tremolo and he does eighth note tremolo in time with the music

----------


## Fretbear

Check out some of Ronny McCoury's bluesy back-up tremolo on Steve Earle's "The Mountain"; "Texas Eagle", "Graveyard Shift", "Yours Forever Blue" .......if there's anything about that you don't like, maybe you did pick the wrong instrument.....

----------


## M.Marmot

> i did a workshop with Steffey where he talked about his tremolo and he does eighth note tremolo in time with the music


I was reading through comments by, i think it was, Mike Compton in the cafe interview, and he was saying something pretty similar about playing the tremolo with respect to, and emphasizing certain notes on, the rhythm... i dunno it seems obvious now, but at the time it was like a little low watt bulb clicked on my head, i think before i had just been doing interminable tremolo noodle strings but could never work out why they sometimes worked and sometimes didn't.

----------


## mrmando

Get an electric mandolin and some effects pedals.

----------


## Pete Hicks

If you REALLY hate tremolo and are playing the mandolin, you are in the wrong body.  You must be a banjo player in a mandolinists body.

----------

Bill Cameron, 

DavidKOS, 

Paul Statman

----------


## fscotte

> If you REALLY hate tremolo and are playing the mandolin, you are in the wrong body.  You must be a banjo player in a mandolinists body.



Hehe, funny that you mentioned that... I was a banjo picker years ago.  Maybe it's somehow subconsciously directing my path in life.

----------


## grumpycoyote

> i would use arpeggios if no tremolo was allowed   like this key of D Maj open d string 2 twice "I ASKED" d string 2nd fret E "MY" d string 4th fret (F#) "LOVE" Tremolo right well instead of tremolo try 4th fret then the open A then the 2nd fret B note then the A and back to the 4th fret on the D string and continue onward with the song very very easy way around the tremolo is use other notes that work.


+1 

Tremolo, like any technique, can be over-used. It often is.

----------


## woodwizard

I love tremolo! ...  :Disbelief:  there! I said it... I feel better now.  :Grin:   :Mandosmiley:

----------

Paul Statman

----------


## Philippe Bony

> What?! 
> 
> You mean that 12 bar trem that Tony Rice does on Mar West is no good? Well, I never....!


 :Laughing: 
Alan, listen to the DGQ 1979 new Acoustic Oasis release! Tony did some extra ordinary one...

----------


## David Miller

> Tremolo, like any technique, can be over-used. It often is.


I dont know that I have much original to add to this discussion, but I agree with this particular statement. My take on tremolo is that is but another of the many different parts of mandolin vocabulary that can be brought into a musical conversation. It has never been my favorite either, and I have done what I can to develop a technique and an instrument that will sustain as much as possible, but I have also found that there are those moments where it is appropriate, and contributes rather than detracts from the music, so I go for it. As far as the original question about what can replace it, aside from developing long tones on the instrument, I have found that a touch of vibrato can also go a long way to providing a bit of interest to a long note that otherwise would just lie there, uninteresting. That may just be a hold-over from my violin days, but it can be effective...

----------


## M.Marmot

Just a note in sympathy with the original post...

I have noticed that the appearance of a mandolin at a jam session has the odd effect of causing guitarists to go tremolo crazy. Just a look at a mandolin is all it takes and off they go twiddling away tremoloing to distraction. 

Maybe tremolo is contagious, like yawning or whistling? 

I dont know, anyhow, however annoying bad tremolo can be on mandolin, for me it is far more annoysome on guitar.

I'll also add that i agree with others who suggest that instead of tremolo maybe a bit of silence or space is in order

----------


## CES

My first thought was, "Then play the banjo!"  Realizing how jackA$$ that sounded (and I meant it as a joke), I didn't post...but, you used to pick a 5 string, so I think you'd get it...

Anyway, my second thought was, "Get an electric mandolin."  I found very early that when playing my mandobird, there were very FEW places that tremolo fits at all.  You can get the sustain built into the electronics or do a classical guitar fretting type tremolo to sustain the notes without making them sound all "tremoloeee."

----------


## Pete Hicks

I agree with the electric mandolin comments.  Tremolo is not so nice on electric mandolin, especially if it is a 4 or 5 string mando.

----------


## JeffD

> As far as the original question about what can replace it, aside from developing long tones on the instrument, I have found that a touch of vibrato can also go a long way to providing a bit of interest to a long note that otherwise would just lie there, uninteresting. That may just be a hold-over from my violin days, but it can be effective...


I didn't know one could do vibrato on a fretted instrument. I'm confused.

----------


## bratsche

Sure, you can do vibrato, but it just doesn't sound as pronounced as it does on a non-fretted instrument.  The degree to which it does sound is higher with less string tension and lighter action on an instrument.  

I sort of agree with the OP, and am not a big fan of playing tremolo.  That's ironic, since the first time someone stuck a mandolin in my hand and asked me to play, it was in an opera, and the conductor wanted the refrain of a particular aria reinforced with eight bars of mandolin tremolo (it wasn't in the score, but he "heard" it that way), and I obliged.  I didn't find it difficult, because nobody told me it was difficult, I just did it.  But now, I play music pretty much all of the time that doesn't have tremolo.

bratsche

----------


## Richard Watts

if it wasnt for tremolo id have a lot of wait time in my songs tremolo O holy night all the way through nice soft and lightly- its wonderful

----------


## Jim MacDaniel

> Get an electric mandolin and some effects pedals.


There you go -- you can get Santana-like sustain with the right setup!  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Oggy

Tremolo is a stylistic choice, not a necessity... let the notes ring or fill the void with other interesting notes. To say that the mandolin MUST be played with tremolo represents a narrow minded view of the instrument IMHO. 

I love to play tremolo, when it's appropriate or when I choose to play in a certain style.

Now I have to go play Banks of the Ohio just to prove my point.  :Wink:

----------


## mzurer

JeffD, ever hear BB King?  Lucille's got frets all up and down, but he manages.

----------


## Jim Garber

Even in classical music, tremelo is a *choice* not mandatory. I think, esp in baroque, it just clutters up the music. it is the same with vibrato on a violin or voice -- you don't need it constantly, it is like a spice that should be used sparingly and appropriately.

----------


## Charley wild

For medical reasons if I couldn't do tremolo I wouldn't be able to play the mandolin! Luckily I love hearing it and doing it. BUT I do sympathize with the OP. I played dobro for years and have always disliked the trill technique no matter who was doing it. I have used it a times but VERY sparingly!

----------


## rico mando

i am not a fan of slow songs with lots of whole note being played tremolo .i do like bills waltzs though.but the mandolin is not a sustain monster and never will be .i do play electric myself  and with effects and loops i can sustain all nite long.

----------


## yankees1

I think you need an instructor!

----------


## John Flynn

I think tremolo is a great technique, very useful, and it is a defining technique for mandolin, more so than for any other instrument. When I think of mandolins being played, in any genre, I automatically think of them being played with some tremolo. As has been said, tremolo can be overused and it may be optional, but I think that a mandolin player who cannot do it well and make it sound good where it is appropriate is missing something important on the instrument. I can't think of a player I admire who does not do great tremolo and who does not regularly find ways to use it well when they play.

----------


## JeffD

> JeffD, ever hear BB King?  Lucille's got frets all up and down, but he manages.


Well perhaps it is a terminology question. I thought vibrato was moving up and down the neck along the string - as a violin does to imitate the human voice doing the slight pulsation in the frequency of the pitch, and would clearly be pointless on a fretted instrument.

Pulling or pushing a string across the neck, parallel to the string I would call string bending.

Pulsating your finger harder an softer on the string (up and down into the neck), fretted or not, would be going into and out of good intonation.

----------


## JeffD

I much prefer a song or tune, slow or fast, that evokes some strong emotions, rather than a tune that is designed to show off playing technique. Tremolo is one way to bring out an expressive line.

----------


## johnwalser

Because of the short scale length of the mandolin and almost total lack of sustain, I find tremolo absolutely necessary.  Even an electric mandolin with a great sustain pedal just can't give me what my Fender Strat guitar delivers effortlessly.  Mandolin will always be my fun instrument, played with gusto and a great amount of the tremolo I worked so hard to perfect.
John

----------


## M.Marmot

> Whether it's flemenco guitar, acoustic guitar (i really hate it on acoustic), or even mandolin, I simply have never liked the sound of tremolo.  No matter the tempo of the music I can just never find myself saying, wow that really fits, or that really sounds good.  And I don't mean my own playing either, I mean on anything, anywhere, any music.


Just out of curiosity, seeing as your so adamant about your dislike of tremolo, whats your stance on triplets? 

Thats in terms of picking now, not three siblings  :Smile:

----------


## JeffD

> Pulling or pushing a string across the neck, parallel to the string I would call string bending.
> .


I meant perpendicular.

----------


## catmandu2

> Well perhaps it is a terminology question. I thought vibrato was moving up and down the neck along the string - as a violin does to imitate the human voice doing the slight pulsation in the frequency of the pitch, and would clearly be pointless on a fretted instrument.
> 
> Pulling or pushing a string across the neck, parallel to the string I would call string bending.
> 
> Pulsating your finger harder an softer on the string (up and down into the neck), fretted or not, would be going into and out of good intonation.


Vibrato is common to most all types of instrument playing; players even effect vibrato on instruments with fixed skins and string scale length and mechanical action such as drums, banjo, piano and hammered dulcimer through any manner of manipulation of keys, strings, or body of the instrument--basically any way they can.  The relative mechanics employed to render vibrato vary widely--all of the examples you've mentioned are techniques that render vibrato; they range from very slight pulsations to long glissandos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glissando , which can be less than a full portamento.

----------


## fscotte

> Just out of curiosity, seeing as your so adamant about your dislike of tremolo, whats your stance on triplets? 
> 
> Thats in terms of picking now, not three siblings


Triplets are really a different thing to me.  They sound wonderful in the right places.  I guess when I hear tremolo I hear something wrong in the picking.  Short, fast, staccato like sounds of the same note many times per beat just doesn't sound good to me.

----------


## journeybear

If you hear "short, fast, staccato like sounds of the same note many times per beat" when you're listening to tremolo, you probably _are_ hearing something wrong in the picking. Tremolo is supposed to sound smooth, to a point where the individual notes almost blur into a seamless whole. Tremolo is just one picking technique, one color in the sonic pallette available for the mandolin, and you would be limiting your effectiveness if you were to dismiss it from your repertoire - continuing with the analogy, like trying to paint without blue. Of course, you don't want to overdo it - Picasso lingered in his "blue period" for just a couple of years - but when appropriate, nothing else will work as well instead. 

Tremolo has uses besides sustain, too, such as varying volume, and even tempo. But it is true that it's often used to create a long note, something that is difficult to achieve otherwise on the instrument. Vibrato, achieved by either bending the string back and forth quickly parallel to the fret or just wiggling the finger or whole hand rapidly in place, may add a _bit_ of sustain, but can also sound unnatural and be easily overused. Striking a note and letting it decay naturally can easily sound pretty plinky if you don't have a fabulous-sounding instrument. I think your best bet is to practice your tremolo technique until you can make it sound acceptable to your ears. It's in there; you just have to find a way to get it out.  :Wink: 

I agree with those who don't care for tremolo on single-string instruments. It is really hard and thus rare for it to sound - gee, I need a better word - non-plinky. My favorite example of an exception, the best use of tremolo on an electric guitar I know, is Eric Clapton's interludes on "Dance The Night Away" from "Disraeli Gears" - there's probably some effect being used too, but it's amazing. It was partially responsible for my interest in the mandolin - I wanted to make sounds like that.  :Cool:  This capability is pretty much a basic characteristic of the mandolin.  :Mandosmiley: 

I'm angling for a job playing in an Italian restaurant. I may well be adjusting my opinions after playing "Santa Lucia," "Return To Sorrento," "Lara's Theme," etc etc over and over day after day.  :Wink:

----------


## Bertram Henze

> If you hear "short, fast, staccato like sounds of the same note many times per beat" when you're listening to tremolo, you probably _are_ hearing something wrong in the picking. Tremolo is supposed to sound smooth, to a point where the individual notes almost blur into a seamless whole.


Exactly that - good tremolo is an even stream with just the slightest surface ripple (like creamy peanut butter, not the crunchy one). It has much to do with pick choice and pick angle, and the mandolin should provide - irconically -  a good sustain of its own which the tremolo is supposed to keep alive, not to replace it if absent.

----------


## bratsche

> Well perhaps it is a terminology question. I thought vibrato was moving up and down the neck along the string - as a violin does to imitate the human voice doing the slight pulsation in the frequency of the pitch, and would clearly be pointless on a fretted instrument.


That is the vibrato definition I was referring to, and while it's effects on a fretted instrument are certainly subtle compared to the violin, it is definitely not pointless.  You can hear it.  And as I said before, it is more pronounced with low tension strings and low action (both of which I prefer to use).

As a violist, I find it hard to avoid vibrato completely, no matter what instrument I am playing.  It comes so naturally to want to do it.  But with mandos I generally reserve it for a long-held note within or especially at the end of a phrase, when it needs a bit of added emphasis or color.  A slight vibration here and there is just another way of adding ornamentation to a note.  

bratsche

----------


## rico mando

i thought violinists used vibrato to hide the fact that were not fully on the right note?

----------


## ralph johansson

Tremolo is an effect to use sparingly on mandolin, and on the guitar it's very cheap. Something I really dislike is the repeated eighth notes that BG players often lapse into in those atrocious tempos. ANyway, one player who does use tremolo to great dramatic and dynamic effect is Sam Bush. Grisman and Stiernberg use it with great restraint and economy. And Flinner hardly uses it all.

----------


## JeffD

> ANyway, one player who does use tremolo to great dramatic and dynamic effect is Sam Bush. Grisman and Stiernberg use it with great restraint and economy. And Flinner hardly uses it all.


One of my favorite tremolos would be Butch Baldassari's.

----------


## Randi Gormley

depending on the music, you might try triplets instead of tremolo, to go with arpeggios and turns and other filler. just a thought.

----------


## marksmithhfx

> Well perhaps it is a terminology question. I thought vibrato was moving up and down the neck along the string - as a violin does to imitate the human voice doing the slight pulsation in the frequency of the pitch, and would clearly be pointless on a fretted instrument.
> 
> Pulling or pushing a string across the neck, parallel to the string I would call string bending.


I know this is an ancient thread, but as a listener (not a musician) I've just become aware of this in a piece I was listening to on guitar and wasn't sure if it was tremolo or something else. Actually (to my ear) it sounds like the strings are being bowed like a violin not picked like a guitar. I wonder what your take is? The part I am referring to starts about 8-9 seconds into this piece... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCJWo6WUyY8 
PS I am aware this music won't be to everyone's taste... it was more the technique I was interested in, not something I have heard on a guitar very often. Cheers!

----------


## JeffD

> Actually (to my ear) it sounds like the strings are being bowed like a violin not picked like a guitar.


What I hear is using the edge of the pick to scratch along the length of the string. I could be wrong. Its an interesting effect.

----------


## Johnny60

Agree with JeffD - it's an old and well-established rock guitar technique.  You kind of drag the pick edge down one of the wound strings while performing a slight sawing 

It's how Billy Idol's White Wedding starts. A far cry from country, Old Time and bluegrass!

----------


## ralph johansson

> Tremolo is an effect to use sparingly on mandolin, and on the guitar it's very cheap. Something I really dislike is the repeated eighth notes that BG players often lapse into in those atrocious tempos. ANyway, one player who does use tremolo to great dramatic and dynamic effect is Sam Bush. Grisman and Stiernberg use it with great restraint and economy. And Flinner hardly uses it all.


it all -> it at all, of course. As I was reading through this old thread I found myself almost composing the same post again. As for the guitar, what I *really* dislike is the double stop tremolo favored by Don Reno. I also dislike the continuous tremolo I often hear in classical mandolin. Over the years I've tried to economize my use of tremolo, also I've found that a very light tremolo is enough to create the impression of sustain and decay.


But sometimes, when listening back to recordings of mine I cringe at the sometimes unmotivated use of tremolo.

 In 1972 I made a very conscious effort to record a slow song without the use of  tremolo, the Swedish gospel song O store Gud (How Great Thou Art): 
http://www.mandohangout.com/myhangou...c.asp?id=22331
In retrospect I must confess that my treatment of the chorus and the  improvisation over the verse was more successful than that of the verse. I would use a less complex approach today. (Incidentally, the chord sequence towards the end was inspired by the Osborne Brothers' version, issued in 1969).

On that same page there's a group performance (1969) of Bye Bye Blues, where,  in the last two bars of my solo, I use tremolo to lead into the second guitar solo.

----------


## Mandoplumb

Everybody's different. I could listen to Reno play a guitar all day long, as well as Shufler. After about 3 songs Tony Rice starts sounding like the same thing over and over. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> What I hear is using the edge of the pick to scratch along the length of the string. I could be wrong. Its an interesting effect.


Many rock guitar effects are possible because the magnetic pickups only transmit the oscillation of the fretted string, as opposed to the whole-instrument oscillation radiating from an acoustic instrument. I've never heard a squealie from an acoustic guitar (not a good-sounding one, anyway), for instance. if the grass looks greener over there, it's because of many cans of green paint.

----------


## JeffD

> Many rock guitar effects are possible because the magnetic pickups only transmit the oscillation of the fretted string, as opposed to the whole-instrument oscillation radiating from an acoustic instrument. I've never heard a squealie from an acoustic guitar.


I was thinking you could get one on a wound string maybe, but not on the others.

----------


## marksmithhfx

> What I hear is using the edge of the pick to scratch along the length of the string. I could be wrong. Its an interesting effect.


Right after that part. Is it possible to pick fast enough to sound like a bow on a string... cause that's what I hear (I know what you mean about the scratching along the string, that's how that piece starts out... but just after that it doesn't sound like guitar playing anymore... it sounds like violin playing to me, and I was wondering "how the hell is she doing that?")

Thanks for the many comments. Interesting stuff.

Sort of like this sound, but on a guitar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E8rMLHIpag&t=18s

----------


## Explorer

Although people are talking about dragging a pick along a wound string, the string on which the harmonic squeals are being produced is a plain string, the high E string. 

That tne has more to do with the high gain and the harmonics available through diatortion/feedback. 

However... I did at some point use cut up pet flea combs as "bows" because the dragging of the teeth gave that bowed quality to the string. A flea comb is a few bucks at a pet store, but a Jellifish pick was about $10 each IIRC.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Jellifish pick


Why stop there, when you can get a better bargain...  :Grin:

----------


## Bertram Henze

> the string on which the harmonic squeals are being produced is a plain string, the high E string.


The term "squeal" is used in several contexts, and I should have  made myself clearer: I meant the harmonic pick squeal or pinch squeal as described here, and that's possible on wound and plain strings, but the effect is hardly audible on an acoustic instrument, and it doesn't help with the sustained tone problem adressed in this thread, of course.

----------


## James Rankine

> Right after that part. Is it possible to pick fast enough to sound like a bow on a string... cause that's what I hear (I know what you mean about the scratching along the string, that's how that piece starts out... but just after that it doesn't sound like guitar playing anymore... it sounds like violin playing to me, and I was wondering "how the hell is she doing that?")


16th note alternate picking - it is the basis of shred guitar. She's very good  -if you like that sort of thing, or even if you don't.

----------


## Johnny60

+1 James - She certainly is!

Pinched harmonics are usually used at the top end of the E or B stringing guitar - you kind of pick it with the tip of the pick and the fleshy side of your thumb at the same time - easier said than done, and you need to do it 50 times or so before you get it right - by which time your thumb is bleeding!  Once you've nailed it, though, it's a technique that can be used on either electric or acoustic guitar.  

The wound string "sawing and dragging" is a totally different technique.  Sounds good (if you like it) on electric with the distortion and gain dialled up.  Can sound awful on acoustic (in my opinion and experience).

----------


## AlanN

Here's some beautiful and expressive tremble by Jimmy Gaudreau. What's not to like?

----------

mandocrucian

----------


## DavidKOS

As a mandolin player of primarily Italian style originally, I find it difficult to conceive of liking the sound of the mandolin but not liking the sound of tremolo.

Tremolo is an important tool in the mandolin player's bag of tricks.  Of course certain styles of music work better with little or no tremolo, but much of the music I love is based on using tremolo in an expressive way.

----------

mandopops, 

T.D.Nydn

----------


## ralph johansson

> Here's some beautiful and expressive tremble by Jimmy Gaudreau. What's not to like?


Well what's to really like is the subtle dynamics and rhythm, e.g., off-beat accents in places. In fact I find his mandolin playing a bit more refined than the fiddle solo - that's unusual

----------


## JeffD

> Right after that part. Is it possible to pick fast enough to sound like a bow on a string... cause that's what I hear (I know what you mean about the scratching along the string, that's how that piece starts out... but just after that it doesn't sound like guitar playing anymore... it sounds like violin playing to me, and I was wondering "how the hell is she doing that?")


I think you are referring to "plain old" tremolo, on a guitar. Just very even very fast alternating picking. And while she is real good at it, I think its a pretty normal technique in that genre of guitar rock.

I think of it as mandolin envy  :Smile:

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I think of it as mandolin envy


 :Grin: 
Retracing my own post 7 years ago in this thread, I must quote myself here: "...and the mandolin should provide - irconically - a good sustain of its own which the tremolo is supposed to keep alive, not to replace it if absent."
I guess the tremolo must be done the faster the less natural sustain the instrument has to sound smooth. Electric guitar players have so much sustain on their hands that the mandolin envy must be enourmous indeed to justify the effort of fast tremolo, for they don't really need it (what would Mr Clapton say to that?)

----------


## AlanN

> Well what's to really like is the subtle dynamics and rhythm, e.g., off-beat accents in places. In fact I find his mandolin playing a bit more refined than the fiddle solo - that's unusual


Yes, JAG gets the ebb and flow in good stead here. And fiddle was Rickie Simpkins, who usually nails it pretty good. On this cut (and others on this 1989 release), he is a tad underdone. Maybe he was out of sorts a bit...it happens.

----------


## red7flag

I am one of those who does not, for the most part, especially when playing, like tremolo.  I think that is one one reason I gravitate to oval holes to gain in sustain.  I really liked that Jimmy Gaudreau tune, but for me that is an exception.  I tend to use some of the techniques mentioned to add sustain to a slower tune, arpeggios especially.  The band leader of the praise band really likes tremolo and is trying to get me up to speed.   Since he is the leader...

----------


## T.D.Nydn

Did you have a bad tremolo experience when you were younger or something?...

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Relio

Maybe tremolo doesn't like the sound of you. ;-) I play bluegrass so tremolo is one of my primary tools. Sometimes I will crosspick instead of tremolo on slow songs.

----------


## jesserules

> , I simply have never liked the sound of tremolo.


Okay.

----------


## catmandu2

I use trem a lot, particularly if playing standards, rags, solo work, etc.  (I just started playing mndln again, and made this observation).  I also use it playing 12-str gtr, particularly as I occasionally lead sing-along stuff - trem allows more dynamics in codas, outros, etc.

----------


## MediumMando5722

I can sort of relate, but with vibrato. I hate when singers sound like someone is shaking their throat at the end of every line, or when an electric guitarist does spazzy convulsions on every held out note.

----------

ajh

----------


## marksmithhfx

> I think you are referring to "plain old" tremolo, on a guitar. Just very even very fast alternating picking. And while she is real good at it, I think its a pretty normal technique in that genre of guitar rock.
> 
> I think of it as mandolin envy


Super, thanks. I think you've answered my question.

PS tried playing the Florentine Waltz mp3 in iTunes but it didn't work. Guess I need a good midi player?

----------


## MediumMando5722

> What I hear is using the edge of the pick to scratch along the length of the string. I could be wrong. Its an interesting effect.


Pick slides are awful. That almost died out with the awful 80's rock guitar sounds.

----------


## billkilpatrick

> ... I simply have never liked the sound of tremolo


Avoid Naples ...

----------

ajh, 

DavidKOS

----------


## mandocrucian

> Here's some beautiful and expressive tremble by Jimmy Gaudreau. What's not to like?


Yeah, Jimmy did a great job on that track. (Been years since I listened to that* Classic JAG* LP.)  On that he's got that Curly Lambert (Stanley Bros.) slow tremolo, with a touch of Buzz Busby.  *Jimmy Gaudreau* is one of the few players that will do (or can do) the full-blown Buzz buzz (though he's not doing it on this tune).

I'm not a big tremolo fan myself (in my own playing), usually preferring left hand vibrato ala electric guitar, and a lot of those other e.g. techniques that others have mention including the harmonic pick squeals, string scraping, etc.  But depending on the tune, sometimes one of the varieties of tremolo is the most appropriate choice for the material.

*Curly Lambert* is a good example of that older, slower tempo tremolo that's so effective on old country and mountain tunes.*Busby* takes things up to "eleven" (more like ""eighteen"!) and is in a category all be himself with that destructo-tornado havoc.*Doyle Lawson* has the precision to come off the tremolo right-on-time and without interruption on faster stuff and fiddle tunes. It's as much about his "stopping on a dime" that elevates him to the top rung.*Grisman* on the slow moody stuff ("Rain & Snow", "Her Name Is Written There") is at his best (imo). He's got a ton of volume dynamics as well a tone variation including that breathy-scratchy stuff. My suspicion is that he found that by going after the breathy sound of low volume sax on ballads (such a _"Naima")._




Here's Busby at his best. (Honky tonk if George Jones had hung out with Ralph Stanley) Be sure to check out _"Rambler"_   BTW, it was Jimmy Gaudreau who made it a point to turn me onto Buzz (for his dublestop mania) way back in 1976; his folks happened to live 4 miles down the road from where I was living in my late grandmother's house in southern RI. His uncle ran the Shannock, RI post office and gave me the heads up when JG was gonna be in 'town'.

----------

AlanN, 

Drew Streip

----------


## AlanN

Per Jimmy, Classic JAG never made it to CD due to some issue with the record company (Wayne Busbice) at the time. Too bad, as it has some nice cuts on it - the title track (which, btw, I played for JAG one time at Merlefest. He was impressed, not so much with my playing, but with the fact that someone actually learned one of his tunes...haha), Adrienne's Reel, New Sweet Home, some pleasing vocal numbers + Wyatt Rice stepping out a bit more than he did at that time. 

I dropped it down to the computer for ease of play and lick thievery...

further thoughts: that older, bygone era of tremolo - Frank W., Vernon Derrick, Dorsey Harvey, Buzz, Duffey, some others is hardly heard these days. Practiced at the time by the wilder/younger-than-Monroe cats, it was raw and intense. Listening to the Buzz/Leon Morris record, it harkens back to a style that was hot and cool, and seems to have fallen out of favor. Now, it's pretty and clean; I dig the down and dirty, meself.

----------


## sbhikes

I've never learned tremolo. I think I would be embarrassed to try it now. It would call too much attention to myself. Now I wonder if it calls too much attention to myself that I don't ever do it?

I never took lessons on mandolin. I learned from another player at the jam, just watching him. He never played any tremolo. I guess I either just let a long note go or I strum it like a guitar.

----------


## fredfrank

Tremolo was the technique that saved my mandolin playing. I had been struggling with being able to get any speed for a long time. Then, one day I noticed that when I played tremolo, I used a different right hand position than my regular playing. I began to wonder, if I can play tremolo which is just a lot of single notes played very quickly, why couldn't I use the tremolo technique slowed down slightly to play blazing speeds of regular picking. Turns out, I could. It took a while to perfect it, but now I don't struggle with fast material any more. 

The technique I was using to play my tremolo was that I tilted my pick upwards slightly, rather than the square strike I had been using to play regular notes. By upwards, I mean the pick end closest to the fingerboard was raised at about a thirty degree angle. Also known as a left hand tilt or opposite of Thile's tilt. Combined with a pick that has a left hand speed bevel, the technique works very well for me. I have also strived to keep my thumb and forefinger from squirming around, and use only my wrist. 

I just can't imagine mandolin playing without tremolo. Seems like you'd be missing a valuable tool in your picking toolbox.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## JeffD

> I began to wonder, if I can play tremolo which is just a lot of single notes played very quickly, why couldn't I use the tremolo technique slowed down slightly to play blazing speeds of regular picking. Turns out, I could.


I had a similar experience. I could do the tremolo, (not sure how), but then I expanded it to do runs and arpeggios and stuff and wow! In fact the way I do Irish triples is to just go into a quick machine gun burst of tremolo and get out of it quickly. I have honed it down to three notes in a burst.

----------

DavidKOS, 

fredfrank

----------


## sbhikes

I mentioned to my friends that one thing I don't know how to do, where to use, is tremolo. The reaction I got was "Oh god no, don't do tremelo!" I think they're okay with it in extreme moderation on waltzes but otherwise it seems universally hated. I play strictly old-time.

----------


## JeffD

My default is to tremolo everything a quarter note or longer. There are exceptions but that is my general practice.

That includes old time. I haven't gotten the hairy eyeball for it. 

For example the B part of Greasy Coat has those two dramatic extended notes. Well of course I have to tremolo them.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## foldedpath

> I mentioned to my friends that one thing I don't know how to do, where to use, is tremolo. The reaction I got was "Oh god no, don't do tremelo!" I think they're okay with it in extreme moderation on waltzes but otherwise it seems universally hated. I play strictly old-time.


That's interesting, maybe a regional difference? Out here in the Pacific Northwest, I don't think tremolo is frowned on in local OldTime jams. What else are you gonna do on a slower tune like Ashokan Farewell, or a waltz? 

Irish/Scottish trad is a different thing though, and I've already gotten into trouble here by saying I think it sounds out of place in that music. Just a personal preference, and I can't really articulate why it sounds good to me in OldTime and not in Irish trad. Maybe something to do with the usual mix of instruments... string band vs. more sustaining instruments, something like that.

----------


## billkilpatrick

Imagine a mandolin player from 100 to 150 years ago repeating to him/herself, over and over again: "I must not play tremolo … I must not play tremolo …"

----------


## sbhikes

> That's interesting, maybe a regional difference? Out here in the Pacific Northwest, I don't think tremolo is frowned on in local OldTime jams. What else are you gonna do on a slower tune like Ashokan Farewell, or a waltz? 
> 
> Irish/Scottish trad is a different thing though, and I've already gotten into trouble here by saying I think it sounds out of place in that music. Just a personal preference, and I can't really articulate why it sounds good to me in OldTime and not in Irish trad. Maybe something to do with the usual mix of instruments... string band vs. more sustaining instruments, something like that.


Well, Ashokan Farewell would also be frowned on in the circles I attend. Maybe this is California-style old-time.

----------


## DavidKOS

> I just can't imagine mandolin playing without tremolo. Seems like you'd be missing a valuable tool in your picking toolbox.


I don't consider it a tool, it's an essential part of playing the mandolin. I can't imagine NOT using tremolo.

----------

mandopops, 

T.D.Nydn

----------


## JeffD

> Irish/Scottish trad is a different thing though, and I've already gotten into trouble here by saying I think it sounds out of place in that music. Just a personal preference, and I can't really articulate why it sounds good to me in OldTime and not in Irish trad. Maybe something to do with the usual mix of instruments... string band vs. more sustaining instruments, something like that.


What do you think of using tremolo on slow airs. I have done that tastefully. (I think.)

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## foldedpath

> What do you think of using tremolo on slow airs. I have done that tastefully. (I think.)


Again just a personal opinion, but I don't like it. It sounds like the music is suddenly shifting to Italian or Classical mode, and not distinctly Irish (or Scottish). 

When Classical violinists, flute players, and vocalists start learning to play (or sing) Irish traditional music, they learn that the conventions are different. The violinist learns to shed heavy Classical hand vibrato (there are exceptions, but it's used sparingly when done at all). The flute player learns to stop using Classical tongue articulation and diaphragm vibrato in favor of a more pure and flowing melody line, which basically emulates the pipes. Singers in the Sean-nós style learn to use a pure, unwavering tone instead of Classical voice vibrato. 

If all these other instrumentalists and singers learn to ditch some of the defining conventions of Euro-centric, Classical music when they learn to play Irish trad, then maybe we mandolin players should be doing it too. 
 :Wink:

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## JeffD

Well thankfully, most of the fiddle tunes, Irish, Scottish, are mostly eighth notes or faster and quarter notes used rhythmically and not as an extend note, so it doesn't come up too often.

But something like Limericks Lament, I love doing tremolo on that. Or Archibald McDonald of Keppoch. Man without tremolo I don't know how I would play them.

----------


## catmandu2

Consider another aspect: on the other 'slow / fast' thread, we observed how much 'faster' we can play/attack on wind and bowed instruments (continuous).  This provides more control over the shape and character of the note.  Listen to the subtle modulations we can impart on our long tones - amounting to trem on mndln - on especially wind, and bowed strings. WRT to trem on mndln, I hear much less character/modulation/complexity of the note - which makes much of what I hear a a series of 16th, 32nd notes repeated in fast staccato, as opposed to the range of emotions imparted by the wind, and the bow, playing a single tone.

----------


## foldedpath

> Well thankfully, most of the fiddle tunes, Irish, Scottish, are mostly eighth notes or faster and quarter notes used rhythmically and not as an extend note, so it doesn't come up too often.
> 
> But something like Limericks Lament, I love doing tremolo on that. Or Archibald McDonald of Keppoch. Man without tremolo I don't know how I would play them.


I can understand that. My personal choice when playing solo at home, is just not to attempt the true slow airs like Pórt Na BPúcaí that are in rubato time, with long pauses between notes. I'll play the "airs" like Hector the Hero that are often played in steady 3/4 time, because there is enough sustain to carry the notes across the gap. I've heard Archibald MacDonald of Keppoch played both ways, either rubato (a great version on YouTube by Alasdair Fraser), or as a steady 3/4 tune at a slightly faster clip. Everyone's mileage will vary on how to handle these slower tunes.

In a pub session when someone starts a slow air, I just play the notes without tremolo. There are enough other sustaining instruments to carry the tune, so I don't really need to fill that space when everyone else is doing it.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Explorer

> Irish/Scottish trad is a different thing though, and I've already gotten into trouble here by saying I think it sounds out of place in that music. Just a personal preference, and I can't really articulate why it sounds good to me in OldTime and not in Irish trad. Maybe something to do with the usual mix of instruments... string band vs. more sustaining instruments, something like that.





> What do you think of using tremolo on slow airs. I have done that tastefully. (I think.)





> Again just a personal opinion, but I don't like it. It sounds like the music is suddenly shifting to Italian or Classical mode, and not distinctly Irish (or Scottish). 
> 
> When Classical violinists, flute players, and vocalists start learning to play (or sing) Irish traditional music, they learn that the conventions are different. The violinist learns to shed heavy Classical hand vibrato (there are exceptions, but it's used sparingly when done at all). The flute player learns to stop using Classical tongue articulation and diaphragm vibrato in favor of a more pure and flowing melody line, which basically emulates the pipes. Singers in the Sean-nós style learn to use a pure, unwavering tone instead of Classical voice vibrato. 
> 
> If all these other instrumentalists and singers learn to ditch some of the defining conventions of Euro-centric, Classical music when they learn to play Irish trad, then maybe we mandolin players should be doing it too.


Speaking as someone who is *not* Irish, but who has numbered such wonderful people as Irish fiddler Brendan Mulvihill as treasured friends, I often remember Brendan laughing about those who talk about what should and shouldn't be allowed in irish traditional music, especially those who are not actually Irish and didn't grow up in the tradition. 

If one really wants to avoid introducing American, Italian or Greek notions into Irish traditional music, one should avoid introducing those instruments as well. Banjos, mandolins, bouzoukis and even accordions are newcomers to the tradition, as opposed to flutes, pipes, harps and fiddles. 

Me? If Brendan can be agnostic about drawing strong lines, I can be as well. That keeps me consistent across the board.

----------

billkilpatrick, 

DavidKOS

----------


## foldedpath

> Me? If Brendan can be agnostic about drawing strong lines, I can be as well. That keeps me consistent across the board.


Nobody is drawing strong lines here. We're talking personal preference, that's all. Every time I bring up the fact that I don't like tremolo on slow Irish airs in this forum, I get accused of stating that as an absolute proscription of some sort. It's just personal opinion, I don't think it works very well. I pick up my OM with long sustain if I want to play a slower tune, or I pick up my flute. Personal choice, that's all.

And give us a break on "_those who are not actually Irish and didn't grow up in the tradition_", please. 

If I thought I had to be born in Ireland to play this music, I wouldn't be playing it at all. The tunes are too good to ignore on that basis. I do have one Great-Grandmother from a transplanted Irish family in Appalachia, although the rest of my family is descended from sassenach Brits. And I hate Morris tunes, so I'm not gonna play that stuff. I'll play the music I like, whether I was born into the tradition or not.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Bertram Henze

> And give us a break on "_those who are not actually Irish and didn't grow up in the tradition_", please.


+1
Many Irish didn't grow up in the tradition and only learned about it by the advent of radio in the 50s. Many non-Irish people play this music for decades and may well be said to have grown into the tradition by now. 

It's a Celtic thing by nature, and the Celts have never been nailed to one place.
It's also a thing of the soul, and souls don't wave nations' flags, but they are entitled to different taste - some draw lines, others don't, and yet others trip over them.

Anybody looking for strong lines in Irish music should consult Mr Seamus Tansey, a man with a strong Sligo tradition and a strong opinion about it.
For more strong opinions, you may refer to the movie _The Boys and Girls from County Clare_  :Wink:

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## JeffD

Getting back to tremolo, in traditional or indeed any other kind of music.

I am thinking about how one might play tremolo in a way that did not evoke Italian music so strongly. Are their differences in how one does tremolo that we can use to make it fit better or more seamlessly in other kinds of music.

Is there an iconic "Italian expressiveness" that perhaps we can tone down when it is not called for? And is there a way we can do an effective tremolo that is expressive within the tradition we are playing.

Something I have not thought about enough it seems.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## catmandu2

> ...is there a way we can do an effective tremolo that is expressive within the tradition we are playing.


We've been discussing this some on another thread, for I think it's a legitimate question - especially as we're seeing, not only mandolins, but increasing presence of other non-traditional instruments involved in ITM, for example.  Something I mentioned was the tremolo technique in charango playing.  For obvious reasons, chrng likely won't be an efficacious instrument in rendering ITM, but the technique of executing trem on the instrument, while still essentially the same mechanics, mitigates the sound of discrete-note staccato picking of mandolin tremolo.  Succinctly, one can achieve a more expressive trem on chrng than on mandolin (imo).  The technique involves attacking the string with fingernail, or fingertip, or both.  I think a more effective trem - greater dynamics, modulation, nuance - can be achieved on metal-strung mandolin by applying similar approaches.  Plectrum trem can also be 'softened' by varied attack of the plectrum.  But I expect we'll see more creative approaches involving use of the hand, rather than plectrums, on all instruments in years to come.  In harping, for example, technique is being extended to involve expanded use of the hand - flamenco-style techniques, etc.  Naturally technical innovation disperses among all instruments.

----------


## DavidKOS

> If one really wants to avoid introducing American, Italian or Greek notions into Irish traditional music, one should avoid introducing those instruments as well. Banjos, mandolins, bouzoukis and even accordions are newcomers to the tradition, as opposed to flutes, pipes, harps and fiddles. 
> .


Good point...but

the flute used in ITM is based on the 1800's wooden simple system concert flutes...from France, England and Germany. The English style with the wide bore and big fingerholes became popular, often without using the keywork. (cut long discourse on the history of the Irish flute)

Not an Irish native instrument.

The fiddle is a Renaissance Italian invention.

The modern nylon string harp is NOT the same instrument as the traditional Irish wire strung harp.

Even the tin whistle is an English invention.

And that leaves the pipes!

So if we eliminate non-Irish instruments, not much is left but the pipes. 




> Getting back to tremolo, in traditional or indeed any other kind of music.
> 
> *I am thinking about how one might play tremolo in a way that did not evoke Italian music so strongly. Are their differences in how one does tremolo that we can use to make it fit better or more seamlessly in other kinds of music.
> 
> Is there an iconic "Italian expressiveness" that perhaps we can tone down when it is not ca**lled for? And is there a way we can do an effective tremolo that is expressive within the tradition we are playing.*


I was reading the discussion about using - or not using - tremolo on slow airs in ITM.

I would think that would be great for solo mandolin - but you would have to try to imitate the way a Uilleann piper plays to get close to the style, since from what I was taught all ITM instrumental styling is based on the pipe and fiddle phrasing and ornaments.

There certainly would not be the type of dynamics used in a long Italian style tremolo!

Anyway I'd love to hear other players comment on how to use the tremolo and not sound Italian.

----------

brunello97, 

catmandu2

----------


## catmandu2

> So if we eliminate non-Irish instruments, not much is left but the pipes.


And _Irish_ (Uilleann) pipes are said to have derived from earlier ones (naturally)..   :Wink: 
   In my readings (studying wire harp), I came across the notion that the clarsach preceded even the pipes (Scotland, Wales, etc).  So...who knows - maybe pipe tunes derived from harp tunes, which are said to date back to medieval period, and quite likely earlier.  The field of Gaelic Archaeology is often intermeshed with early music of this idiom.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Sakamichi

I don't like the sound of tremolo either.

When _I_ try it, that is.  :Smile:

----------


## Explorer

My only thought is that when extra-cultural revivalists talk about what's appropriate, my old friend would laugh. He was open to new innovations, as am I, and neither of us complained about Italian instruments like the mandolin making in-roads at seisiúns. I found it humorous that the line has to be drawn somewhere... but only after the instrument itself has snuck past that line.  :Grin:

----------

billkilpatrick, 

DavidKOS

----------


## foldedpath

> For more strong opinions, you may refer to the movie _The Boys and Girls from County Clare_


"_We are not playing Jazz. Leave that to the Beatles!_"

Fun movie, although you have to suffer through Andrea Corr pretending she's a fiddler. Here's the relevant clip, one of them, featuring the erstwhile engineer of the starship Enterprise (embedding the clip didn't work for some reason). Strong language alert:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6YS...Xf_hj6LJgPKovB

----------


## derbex

> Anyway I'd love to hear other players comment on how to use the tremolo and not sound Italian.


No help from me -I have been accused (unjustly obviously) of turning anything into an ice cream advert  :Smile:

----------

Bertram Henze

----------


## billkilpatrick

> … Anyway I'd love to hear other players comment on how to use the tremolo and not sound Italian.


No rule of thumb - Like old hippy-button says: "If it feels good, I'll do it."

----------

DavidKOS, 

derbex

----------


## billkilpatrick

> Anyway I'd love to hear other players comment on how to use the tremolo and not sound Italian.


Cruise Youtube and listen to the "The Blue Sky Boys" - there's tremolo a plenty, particularly on their jesus stuff.  No one could accuse them of sounding Italian.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## T.D.Nydn

How to use tremolo and not sound italian? Learning "rawhide" is a good start...

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## JeffD

> Cruise Youtube and listen to the "The Blue Sky Boys" - there's tremolo a plenty, particularly on their jesus stuff.  No one could accuse them of sounding Italian.


Yes. Good point. The Blue Sky Boys is the Harvard and Yale of old time mandolin, or perhaps of a certain kind of old time mandolin. I try and emulate them. Its a good model.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## mandopops

I love tremolo & use it in my Bluegrass band & at the jams. I even had a guy at the jam tell me it sounded like I learned to play Mandolin while riding on a Gondola. Loved it. Good line. Also, I've been told I sound too "Jazzy". O well, I'm not offended. Before I played Bluegrass, I was playing more Italian & Jazz tunes, so I'm sure it shows up in my playing. I really dig Monroe & try to pick up & apply some of his ideas, as well. 
In the end, I want to play like me.
Joe B

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## jshane

I've now read all 111 posts-- from the beginning in 2010.

I guess it has reinforced my belief that words/phrases like:

"shouldn't"
"ought to"
"appropriate"
"doesn't belong"

make me feel really nervous when used in a musical context.

----------

Bill Cameron, 

billkilpatrick, 

Bob Clark, 

DavidKOS, 

Mark Wilson, 

sblock

----------


## DavidKOS

> I even had a guy at the jam tell me it sounded like I learned to play Mandolin while riding on a Gondola.


That sounds like a _compliment_ to me, although I fear it was not meant that way!

----------

mandopops

----------


## mandopops

> That sounds like a compliment to me, although I fear it was not meant that way!


David, 
As a comment on the sound of my tremolo, I did take it as a compliment.
He's a nice fellow. I think it was a tongue in cheek way of him describing my style of playing. 
No harm, no foul.
Joe B

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## foldedpath

> I've now read all 111 posts-- from the beginning in 2010.
> 
> I guess it has reinforced my belief that words/phrases like:
> 
> "shouldn't"
> "ought to"
> "appropriate"
> "doesn't belong"
> 
> make me feel really nervous when used in a musical context.


I can understand that, with phrases like "shouldn't" and "ought to." That's a combination of personal opinion and instruction, or proscription.

However, the other two ("appropriate" or "doesn't belong") are merely personal opinion. Why would someone expressing a personal opinion make you nervous? You're liable to run into a few opinions expressed on Internet forums, I've found. 
 :Smile:

----------


## jshane

> I can understand that, with phrases like "shouldn't" and "ought to." That's a combination of personal opinion and instruction, or proscription.
> 
> However, the other two ("appropriate" or "doesn't belong") are merely personal opinion. Why would someone expressing a personal opinion make you nervous? You're liable to run into a few opinions expressed on Internet forums, I've found.


Well--
If someone says they don't care for something, that's one thing. No issues at all. Personal opinion. We all have preferences.

If someone tells me that something I do isn't appropriate (in the musical sense), then they are telling me that MY tastes aren't welcome, and are subordinate to theirs.   This makes me uncomfortable.

If someone tells me that something I like "doesn't belong", then I feel this is getting close to musical bigotry. After all, who gets to decide that?

Expressing opinions is fine. Insisting that yours are correct isn't. At least in the music-world I prefer to inhabit......

----------

Bill Cameron

----------


## foldedpath

> Well--
> If someone says they don't care for something, that's one thing. No issues at all. Personal opinion. We all have preferences.
> 
> If someone tells me that something I do isn't appropriate (in the musical sense), then they are telling me that MY tastes aren't welcome, and are subordinate to theirs.   This makes me uncomfortable.
> 
> If someone tells me that something I like "doesn't belong", then I feel this is getting close to musical bigotry. After all, who gets to decide that?
> 
> Expressing opinions is fine. Insisting that yours are correct isn't. At least in the music-world I prefer to inhabit......


That's a fairly narrow path to tread (personal opinion, to be clear). When a person says they don't like something, and leaves that hanging without further explanation, it's not much of a topic for conversation is it? 

When I say I don't like something, I feel it might be useful to explain why. And that reason might be that I don't think X,Y,or Z is appropriate for a certain genre. I don't think we should always have to bend over backwards to put disclaimers around every statement to make it clear that it's "just" personal opinion. It should be assumed. Or at least that's the way I treat other posts I read here. 

I respect that you have a different view of this, but I think I'll probably keep stating opinions here and there. And I'll try to avoid the more proscriptive phrasing, with apologies if I've done that in the past.

----------


## Bill McCall

> Well--
> If someone tells me that something I like "doesn't belong", then I feel this is getting close to musical bigotry. After all, who gets to decide that?


I believe old WSM felt differently, at least at the time he expressed 'that ain't no part of nothing'.  His proprietary point of view only, of course.

The comment expressed here just states that there are different opinions about opinions and maybe different weights.

----------


## Tobin

> Anyway I'd love to hear other players comment on how to use the tremolo and not sound Italian.


Well, I would imagine that everyone hears it differently.  What may sound Italian to you may not sound Italian to someone else.

To me personally, an Italian style tremolo is long, metered, and very articulate.  And I'll be the first to admit that I don't listen to Italian music, or know much about it aside from what I have seen in movies (I further admit I don't much care for mafia flicks and have never seen any of the Godfather movies).  So I may be completely off-base.  But when I think of the stereotypical Italian mandolin tremolo, I can hear every pick stroke across the strings, and they sound very sharply punctuated.  Staccato.  It's the sound of a very pointy pick, and it usually sounds like it's only played on one course.

That sounds completely different (again, to me) than what I think of as an American-style tremolo in bluegrass style.  I think of a bluegrass tremolo as more of a rolling, gliding tremolo.  Not as sharp and punctuated as Italian, but more flowing and smooth and played with a lighter touch across the strings.  And more often than not, it's played over two courses with a double-stop so it sounds more like a thrumming motor.  But that seems like a more modern development of the tremolo, whereas Bill Monroe did like to play machine-gun style tremolo.  But when he did it, it seemed to be in short bursts rather than long sustained notes like Italian music.

----------

billkilpatrick, 

DavidKOS

----------


## billkilpatrick

Difficult to imagine anyone on the planet who hasn't seen God Fathers I, II … and III (!) but I agree that a single note, tremoloed to the death is as boring as too many notes crammed into a densely packed, incomprehensible, cacophonic mess.  Tremolo's an ornament - a little dab here and a little dab there is music to the ear.

----------

Bob Clark, 

DavidKOS

----------


## s1m0n

> Difficult to imagine anyone on the planet who hasn't seen God Fathers I, II … and III


[raises hand]

----------


## bratsche

> Difficult to imagine anyone on the planet who hasn't seen God Fathers I, II … and III (!)


Raises hand to that, and a whole lot more (never seen a Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, or Harry Potter flick, either) ... some of us are just not into what's "popular"...

bratsche

----------


## AlanN

> some of us are just not into what's "popular"...


hence, our instrument of choice... :Mandosmiley:

----------

Bob Clark

----------


## billkilpatrick

Well … I'm in shock …

----------


## bratsche

(Offers Bill a cold glass of lemonade....)   :Smile: 

bratsche

----------


## DavidKOS

> Tremolo's an ornament - a little dab here and a little dab there is music to the ear.


In some styles, yes. Tremolo is an ornament to be used judiciously. If at all, as some folks say for certain music.

In other styles, tremolo is certainly _not_ merely an ornament, but instead is a basic way of sustaining a note, same as for a woodwind, brass or bowed string player.

As you say, this can get boring if it is static and by rote, but like a violinist, a good mandolin player can _vary_ the tremolo's dynamics and tone color and even speed, from slow to fast, measured or unmeasured, etc. 

This creates a wide variety of musical expression - and why some mandolin playing sounds like this particular style or another style.

----------


## billkilpatrick

bratsche - mmm … nice. (Al Pacino wants a meet …)

----------


## Tobin

> In some styles, yes. Tremolo is an ornament to be used judiciously. If at all, as some folks say for certain music.
> 
> In other styles, tremolo is certainly _not_ merely an ornament, but instead is a basic way of sustaining a note, same as for a woodwind, brass or bowed string player.
> 
> As you say, this can get boring if it is static and by rote, but like a violinist, a good mandolin player can _vary_ the tremolo's dynamics and tone color and even speed, from slow to fast, measured or unmeasured, etc. 
> 
> This creates a wide variety of musical expression - and why some mandolin playing sounds like this particular style or another style.


Yup.  And the long, sustained tremolo (or the entire melody made up completely of tremolo) is what sounds Italian to me.  In a shockingly never-seen-The-Godfather sort of way.  :Grin:

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## billkilpatrick

Also, it depends on circumstances - A moonlit stroll back to the hotel in Napoli after a lovely meal, a bottle or two of some very nice wine and the distant sound of a tremolo-ing mandolin would be just what the doctor ordered.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## ralph johansson

> How to use tremolo and not sound italian? Learning "rawhide" is a good start...


Nothing to do with tremolo, at all.

----------


## ralph johansson

> Good point...but
> 
> tAnyway I'd love to hear other players comment on how to use the tremolo and not sound Italian.



By staying away from Italian mandolin music altogether (as I did when learning)? I have indeed watched a few videos with Caterina Lichtenberg using that continuous tremolo, into the tiniest hemisemidemiquaver, playing fairly close to the bridge, and I can safely say I've never been even close to that sound. E.g., I like to finish a short tremolo with a gliss, a drop or a snap, completely alien to the classic tradition. Also, already the choice of a flat or creased top instrument will affect the sound or expression you achieve.

----------


## Randi Gormley

The discussion on the distinction between types of tremolo playing made me suddenly remember when I invited my cousin, who has thrown herself into classical guitar, to come to my mandolin lesson and play with my teacher and me. We were playing something baroque or something with a sustained note that we were messing around with and tremolo-ing to draw it out (yes, I know, tremolo isn't the right style for baroque in general) and she was playing some sort of melody and she stopped and asked how many strokes we were giving each measure. both my teacher and I were mostly just shimmering the note and the two of us were building a wall of sound -- she was expecting tremolo to be our two picks moving as one in a measured and distinct number of notes per beat. It made me wonder if that sort of tremolo was a convention that I had ignored in simply stretching to fill three measures of whole notes. I don't remember tremolo being that precise even playing Italian music during my attendance at Carlo Aonzo's mandolin workshops when we had a whole room doing Callace or Munier. Of course, my cousin came from a family filled with engineers, and maybe it was just her preference for definition...

----------


## AlanN

> Nothing to do with tremolo, at all.


Spot on.

For clear, non-Italian-ated exanples, check out Grisman on 

- Knockin' On Your Door - OAITW
- Janice - his solo after the head, from Hot Dawg

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Willie Poole

In my younger years I learned the tremolo from the master, Buzz Busby, I used it on all of the slow songs that I played but as the years went by I just lost the touch or maybe in my mind I just got bored with doing it but just a few months ago the bass player in my band said he loved the way I did the tremolo and I should use it more often so I am now throwing it in more often,   Have to keep your band members happy or they will move on to another band...It does seem to me though that with bluegrass changing the tremolo isn`t used as much as it was in the "Old days"...The pickers now prefer to play a lot of scales and mostly at warp speed...Yes, I am an old man....

      Willie

----------


## ralph johansson

> Spot on.
> 
> For clear, non-Italian-ated exanples, check out Grisman on 
> 
> - Knockin' On Your Door - OAITW
> - Janice - his solo after the head, from Hot Dawg


Had to pull out the CD and check. Yes, and perhaps an even better example is Dawgola, also on Hot Dawg, featuring that very light tremolo that I like.

----------


## T.D.Nydn

> Nothing to do with tremolo, at all.


You don't think so? I doubt you'll be playing rawhide if you don't have a tremolo..

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Bill Foss

> You don't think so? I doubt you'll be playing rawhide if you don't have a tremolo..


I agree. I've taken enough workshops with Mike Compton to know that he would consider the technique used in Rawhide to be tremolo. Certainly not Italian style tremolo.

----------

DavidKOS, 

T.D.Nydn

----------


## ralph johansson

> You don't think so? I doubt you'll be playing rawhide if you don't have a tremolo..


I am expressing a fact, not opinion. What you hear in Rawhide
 is a lot of eighth noes repeated in rhythmic fashion, often accenting the first and fourth eighth note, sometimes tying the middle, first or last two.  And that aint tremolo. A tremolo may be misurato or non misurato, it can be varied in intensity or volyme, and it may even be glissed; but still the idea of the tremolo is the illusion of one single note played in a trembling fashion. 

Really, Rawhide is mainly about rhythm, a sort of fast shuffle. If you want an example of a typically Monrovian tremolo in medium uptempo  refer, e.g.,  to the mandolin intro to A Beautiful Life.

I could play Rawhide, and similar fast numbers, long before I hade developed a credible approach to tremolo. But Im not attracted to that kind of playing; when I started out on the mandolin I much preferred tunes like Brilliancy and Rutlands Reel, which  feature hardly any repeated notes, at all. 45 years ago I performed this little experiment, in slowing down and abandoning the melody altogether, in the interest of creating more melodic and rhythmic variety, even resorting to the cheap trick of rests. 

http://www.flatpickerhangout.com/myh...ic.asp?id=4924

More seriously, on the same page you can find my rendition of Willie Nelsons Crazy (my motive for posting to a flatpicking site of course was the accompaniment), where the tremolo is used very sparingly. You may not like it, but no one can deny that this is far outside the classical tradition.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## AlanN

Here's another example of solid, understated, ebb and flow tremolo in a country/bluegrass setting. Byron knows how to manage it....

----------


## DavidKOS

> Spot on.
> 
> For clear, non-Italian-ated examples, check out Grisman on 
> 
> - Knockin' On Your Door - OAITW
> - Janice - his solo after the head, from Hot Dawg


Yup, that big round Dawg pick sure doesn't sound like an Italian tremolo!

----------

