# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Hand rubbed sunburst finish

## crazymandolinist

Anyone do these? I'm a bit attracted to the idea because of my lack of spray equipment, but I also think that it would be a more enjoyable experiance too. I'd like to know also a bit about the technique behind it, as well as some examples from instruments.

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## Bill Snyder

John Hamlett does them and I believe James Condino does as well.

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## man dough nollij

There's a good video of James Condino doing a (green!) burst on a practice block of maple. I'm sure somebody will show up with a link.

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## Bill Snyder

Been looking for the link to James' video on hand rubbing a sunburst. You may have seen it before, but since you are interested now, it is worth another view.
James Condino Video.

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## sunburst

I usually rub 'em. It gives a different look than a sprayed burst.
Some types of dyes are pretty easy to use for rubbing a good 'burst and some types make it "well nigh" impossible. I found it easiest to rub a burst with alcohol soluble aniline dyes, but I was having trouble with the colors fading and changing over time so I went to metal complex dyes, still alcohol soluble but not nearly so easy to rub a good burst.

Here are the steps I use for rubbing a sunburst, starting with the mandolin sanded completely, the grain raised and re-sanded at least once.

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## sunburst

This step is optional. I rubbed some dilute neutral brown dye on several time to build contrast in the curly maple.

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## sunburst

The whole thing gets rubbed with yellow and/or amber...

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## sunburst

I took these pictures myself so I couldn't show the 'burst in progress, but I rub medium brown dye around the edges and blend it into the center with a rag soaked in alcohol and wrung out. When that color is done, I use a dark reddish brown and repeat the process but I don't go as far toward the center.

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## sunburst

I did a little touch up around the edges with dark brown dye in an airbrush then sealed the whole thing with a light spray of blonde shellac.

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## sunburst

The bindings are then scraped and the instrument is finished, this one with lacquer.
This particular mandolin is one of the main ones that made me switch from anilines. I get to see this one from time to time, and I've refretted it once since it was sold. It is no longer this color! I want them to stay the same color, so I changed to the more difficult metal complex dyes.

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## Ivan Kelsall

I think that Hans Brentrup has made several Mandolins finished in that way,including,i believe either one or both of these. I remember a remark of his regarding how he liked the fact that the wood took the staining differently in different areas - my apologies to Hans if i'm incorrect.
(pic.of 2 wonderful instruments courtesy of Brentrup Mandolins - that "F" style is to die for !!),
                                                                                                                      Ivan

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## Tony Francis

John,

Could you describe how the color faded?

Beautiful mando, by the way.

Best,

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## sunburst

Tony, mostly the color has less red now. It doesn't look as warm, the center has less glow and the edge color is more of a neutral dark color than the red-brown you see here. The owner says he keeps it on a stand in his office a lot of the time so that he can grab it and play it when he has time, and he says he doesn't notice that the color has changed because it's been gradual. When I refretted it, the area of the top covered by the bridge looked about like it started out.
The dyes I'm using now are reputed to be much more light fast.

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## Lefty Luthier

I use a similar process with one addition, I raise the wood grain with a bit of potassium dichromate dissolved in distilled water, wait a couple of hours before final sanding. This step enhances the contrast between light and dark in maple and adds a bit of patina to a spruce top.

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## sunburst

Before all the comments on the dangers of potassium dichromate start rolling in (and it is dangerous stuff), it should be said that all of this stuff is toxic and must be handles carefully. Anilines, metal complex dyes, denatured alcohol, all toxic.

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## crazymandolinist

That second one that John posted is exactly the result I'm looking for. Doesn't LMI carry the dyes? And am I right in saying that the dyes should be very thin and then sort of "stacked on", getting progressively darker as I go? Thanks for the help too guys. Those pictures really are purty!

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## Tony Francis

Thanks John. Its interesting to hear how colors fade. I was using the black from LMI (over other colors) and it turned green after about a year or so. Im starting to wonder what quality the LMI dyes really are. 

I switched over to the metal complex dyes from Transtint about a year ago, but I still dont like the way they rub. Ive herd the best traditional dyes available are the ones from Hammerl in Germany (which are also sold by international Violin), they are said to be very lightfast and exceptional quality. Heres hoping, I have some on order to try out!

Lefty, How do you prepare the potassium dichromate for use with the water?


Best,

Tony

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## crazymandolinist

I do believe now is the time for us to share experiances on dyes then! LMI sells two, the dye concentrates and the powered stuff, both come water soluble and alcohol soluble. And then Stewert MacDonald sells Colortone products.

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## barry k

Alcohol soluble  leather dyes work great, colorfast and easy to use and blend well when bursting. Been using them for 17 years without a problem.  No need for the toxic chemistry to raise grain with this stuff.  Then everything cleans up with rubbing alcohol,  not too toxic  or messy.  Do not use the oil leather  dyes.... different critter.

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## Lefty Luthier

> Thanks John. Its interesting to hear how colors fade. I was using the black from LMI (over other colors) and it turned green after about a year or so. Im starting to wonder what quality the LMI dyes really are. 
> 
> I switched over to the metal complex dyes from Transtint about a year ago, but I still dont like the way they rub. Ive herd the best traditional dyes available are the ones from Hammerl in Germany (which are also sold by international Violin), they are said to be very lightfast and exceptional quality. Heres hoping, I have some on order to try out!
> 
> Lefty, How do you prepare the potassium dichromate for use with the water?
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> ...



I generally mix 1/2 teaspoon of Potassium Dichromate with 4 oz distilled water. Shake well to make sure it is all dissolved. I apply liberally with a q-tip and let it sit for 4 hours to overnight. Then sand with 320 grit to remove any raised grain then with 600 grit on the maple only. Let sit for at least 2 days before staining. I use Transtint amber or lemon yellow as a base then work either tobacco brown or a black/red mix around the edge. As Sunburst described above.

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## sunburst

Tony, take a look at this, then consider that potassium dichromate merely darkens the wood, more where it soaks in deeper and less where it rubs off easier. That highlights the figure. Dyes do that too, they darken more where they soak in more and less where they rub off easier, and the color can be chosen. In short, potassium dichromate is seriously dangerous stuff, and dyes can be used to highlight contrast similarly and more control-ably.

I was using the LMI powdered alcohol soluble anilines and they were fairly easy to work with, but they were the ones that faded. I'm currently using Transtint alcohol soluble dyes and I can eventually get a good 'burst but I have to work my butt of to do it.

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## Mario Proulx

I like the MEK based dyes from LMI. They also mix well with alcohol, and thus with shellac. As lightfast as can be. I found some scraps in my -outdoor- firewood pile a year or two ago that I'd tested color mixes on, and the colors were still vivid, though the unfinished wood was turning gray.

I also had severe fading with alcohol based aniline dyes way back when. My first F-5 has completely lost its burst, and is now a mere pumpkin sort of color! I tried water soluble aniline, which were said to be more lightfast, but I couldn't get the colors to blend properly at all with it by wiping, but they sprayed nicely.

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## sunburst

Any dyes will spray well, in my experience, but most are not easy to rub.

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## Geoff B

I borrowed some potassium dichromate a few years ago from a high school lab because I saw that Dudenbostel used it in his photo essay (I think...).  Then I looked up the MSDS (John's link above is one) on the stuff and swiftly got rid of it.  It is a very serious chemical!  As John says, for something that works ostensibly the same as a dye, I don't see a reason to add all the extra danger that it adds.  I've often thought since it darkens the wood by oxidizing, perhaps there is an easier way to do that (let it sit in the sun for a long time, unfinished, use some other less dangerour oxidizer, or even some sort of flame--though I don't have the cahones to try that!).  Yeah, almost everything involved in building, or just living, is toxic on some level, K2Cr2O7 just doesn't make sense to me to throw into the mix.  

On the other hand, I've heard it gets used a lot in furniture making, especially for artificially aging furniture...

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## buddyellis

Well to get the patina on the spruce, which I think is probably the 'most useful' use for P-D, you can certainly leave the unfinished (totally sanded, ready for staining) instrument out in direct sunlight for a few days. Be careful that it doesn't get too hot though.

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## Rick Turner

I've gone to a combination of water based stain for a grain heightening...stain and then sand back.  I follow this with airbrushed metal acid dyes from what used to be US Cellulose directly on the wood followed by Waterlox to set the stains and to do a pre-seal before going on to other clear materials.

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## mandolinplucker

I tried alcohol based dies and had lots of trouble , especially on the spruce, with blotching. I just couldn't get it even. I use ( don't laugh ) Rite cloth dye now. I have a uke and a mandolin that are about 3 years old and have been played a lot and haven't noticed any change or fading. It is readily available locally and comes in about any color that you want and it is water soluable so you can mix it the way you want. I am sure that my trouble with the alcohol dies was something that I was doing wrong but I found that water is easier to work with for me. If I wet the wood first it doesn't blotch and dies more evenly. Time will tell if the colors last without fading but so far I like it. I am just a hobbiest so don't try any of my ideas without seeing for yourself on some scrap wood.

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## Bill Snyder

I don't mean to nitpick, but it is Rit dye not Rite.

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## buckhorn

i've always hand applied alcohol based dyes and then sprayed nitro over...yes there is the blotching problem,but with me , i try to stay with the "hand made" look....my first build was a dark shade burst that was sprayed on and was not happy with the look...just covered up all the wood grain...i guess it's all goes to what kind of look you are trying for.....keith

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## Mario Proulx

The hand rubbed VS sprayed look is definitely a matter of personal choice, but there's also a third option, and that's to do both. I like rubbing the amber and medium browns into the maple, but only the amber into the spruce top. The tobacco brown is sprayed. I stray from this from time to time to try spraying all of them, but keep returning to the hybrid 'burst.

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## Rick Turner

Mario, that's a lot of what I do now...really a combination of three techniques...rubbed in water based stains, sprayed MEK stains, and then sprayed pure MEK stains onto tacky sealer if I need to get more opaque at the edges of a 'burst.

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## mandolinplucker

You are absolutely correct. I had it right the first time and when I read it over before I posted, "Rit" just didn't look like a real word so I added an "e". I don't mind being corrected. I am sometimes reluctant to post my ideas when there are so many folks with so much knowledge and experience on the board. That is why I  usually notify people of my hobbiest status and experience level when I post.

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## Yonkle

I have hand rubbed my sunburst finish on every mandolin I have ever made. I don't know any other way, seems like spraying would be difficult unless you are just spraying to blend one color to the next.
 I use 4 different colors of stain and straight alcohol and a bunch of rags, thats it. I really enjoy making a sunburst it's fun (until your done) then the dreaded "scraping of the binding" starts and all the fun goes away.

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## buckhorn

i am with you on this, Yonkie.....as stated in an earlier post, i enjoy applying my bursts by hand and keeping it as much "hand made" as possible...glad also to read that others so much more tallented then i feel the same way...and yes, scrapeing the binding is a pain....and great to know you are back in the shop after that nasty fire....can't keep a good guy down.......keith

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## Rick Turner

Spraying 'bursts is not all that difficult, and you can spray metal acid dyes directly on wood to get that hand rubbed look.  You can also spray the dyes onto tacky sealer to get a more opaque look if need be, and then lock in the dye with another coat of sealer.  The more modern method is using transluscent colored lacquer or urethanes, but that goes too opaque for my taste much of the time.  

When I do spray the metal acid dyes for a 'burst, I do the medium dark edge in a warm brown first, then the yellow, then a dark Van Dyke brown just at the very edge.  If I'm doing a three color 'burst (really four), I'll do the red last.  Then I lock in the stain with a couple of coats of Waterlox before moving forward with sealers and clear topcoats.  If I need to hide something near an edge, I'll spray brown dye into the first coat of sealer when it's tacky, and then shoot another coat over that.

My favorite gun for colors is a Sata Mini-Jet.  These guns are stupidly expensive, but they last for decades and you can easily rebuild them.  They also spray decently when they're on their last legs before a rebuild.  I've been using the same two Sata guns now since about 1995, so they've well paid for themselves.

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## David Houchens

I am using liquid stains from Mohawk. I'm not sure what the make-up is but I can rub a nice sunburst with them. I prep the instrument very much the same as John (Sunburst).
 John, you are familiar with this type of stain. How does it compare to what you are using?

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## sunburst

David, I've never used the Mohawk stains. I used the Star Chemical stains before Mohawk bought them and changed all the colors. The Star stains were by far the easiest I've used to get good rubbed 'burst, and if the Mohawk version of those is still the same other than the colors they're very easy to work with and quite a bit easier than the ones I'm using now.

Rick, I sometime spray 'bursts directly on the wood, and to my eye they do not look like a hand rubbed burst. Close, but not the same. As for which is easier, to me spraying a 'burst is much easier than rubbing.

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## j. condino

As you can easily tell from all of the different posts, there are a ton of ways to achieve a great sunburst finish, some very technical and equipment intensive, some brilliantly simple. Most of us learn a method that works for us after trying many that were unsuccessful, and then stick with that one. I use several motheods, depending upont the outcome I'm after, what the individual instrument seems to tell me to do, and based on the rewuests of the person who will be getting the instrument asks for. Pick one, practice practice practice, and know that at some point everything will change and you'll be back to the drawing board again...

The irony in that handrubbed finish video of mine is that the instrument I'm actually playing at the end of the segment (Cricket) was finished with a spray gun, not handrubbed....

I'm about 50 / 50 handrubbed vs. sprayed or a combination of both- for just the color application- everything else is French polished. I used to use the Sata minijet that Rick mentions; these days my favorite gun is the Devilbis 503 traditional touch up gun- incredible fine atomization without needing a separate hvlp system. I'll likely stick with it until something breaks....

j.
www.condino.com

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## Dale Ludewig

John, as far as I can tell, some of the Star products just got moved into Mohawk's line.  I'm using some of their dyes and am pleased by and large.  But when you get into certain colors, eh.....  

I also do the multiple apllication thing, rub, seal, tint, MEK is a wonderful thing for some colors, and mixing with some finish or spraying onto a still wet sealer to get a toner is to dye for.

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## Rick Turner

It's really great to have more than one trick up your sleeve for doing 'bursts.  Glad to see others have come to this as well.   

For me, even the sprayed 'bursts take on a bit of the hand rubbed aspect as I use Waterlox brushed on and then rubbed off with a blue paper shop towel.  This helps blend the colors really nicely and softens the whole look.  It also sets the MEK stain nicely so sprayed sealer or FP doesn't pull the color out of the wood.

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## piiman

To qualify my Ignorence I haven't ever tried a burst as it's been a mystery to me. However this thread has me inspired so i got some stu mac metal complex dyes. 
Vintage amber, medium brown and cherry red.
I'd very much like to duplicate the Martin/ collings amberburst on a guitar I'm about to finish.
so far I have only been applying french polished shellac so would like to continue in the hand applied mode.
Can anyone be of any assistance in the process, with the colors I have?

Peter

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## sunburst

Martin sprays their 'bursts and I believe Collings does too. At any rate, If I need to duplicate a Martin 'burst, I spray it with amber and brown, and that pretty much does it.

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## piiman

Thanks for your reply John.
I just made a color board with the colors I have straight up and also some blends.
I think I've got it now.

Peter

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## Rick Turner

Martin has a history of doing the most hideous sunbursts of all time, and I say this as a long time fan of Martin guitars.   I prefer the 'bursts done by the thousands at the old Chicago Harmony factory!

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## sunburst

True, it looks like the folks at Martin just didn't get the concept or a 'burst a lot of the time, but there are some pretty good examples from the late 30s and early 40s. 
Don't get me started on bad bursts, there certainly are a lot of them out there (IMO), and some of them sell for big bucks at auction!!

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## piiman

I holheartedly agree, those dark busts are probably the worst you'll see out there.
What I do particularly like though are the Martin/Collings amberburst, they arn't so much a burst as just a shaded top  very gradually getting a little darker toward the edges.

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## majorbanjo

Leo Posch hand rubs his finishes on his guitars with a very nice effect....the guitars sound better than they look....

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## Rick Turner

Are the strings really as far off the centerline of the sound hole as they look?  Check the distance from each E string to the nearest edge of the soundhole...

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## John Gardinsky

That photo is not straight on.  You can see the side dots on the fretboard.

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## sunburst

Yep, I think it's the camera angle, look at the back graft.

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## Jim Hilburn

Sooo... I just did my first application of potassium dichromate, handling it like nuclear waste. I put some on both spruce and maple. At this point it just looks like bright yellow dye. Should I expect that to change?

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## Jim Hilburn

Answered my own question. went away for a couple of hours and it turned a yucky green-brown. Don't like it. Didn't seem to enhance the maple figure as much as I expected.
Maybe i made too strong a concentrate.

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## sunburst

That's the main reason I don't use oxidizers like that. The toxicity is bad enough, but unpredictability is what bothers me. I feel like I can get the same, or similar grain enhancement with dyes, along with predictability.

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## Lefty Luthier

> Answered my own question. went away for a couple of hours and it turned a yucky green-brown. Don't like it. Didn't seem to enhance the maple figure as much as I expected.
> Maybe i made too strong a concentrate.


The yucky green-brown is exactly how it should look before sanding. Wait a couple of days and it will take on a more uniform grayish tone that can be greatly enhanced with any water or alcohol based dyes.

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## barry k

How does one even get that stuff,  I though it is by prescription only from a foot doctor? or am I thinking of some other chemical?

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## Jim Hilburn

Woodfinishing Enterprises in Wisconsin has it. 
The smallest they sell is 4 oz. and it's bright orange granules. About a teaspoon in a little water is plenty so I have several lifetimes of it.

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## Geoff B

I "borrowed" some from a school I was at and tried it with the same results.  The oxidation looked very much like a brown-amber dye when all was said and done and I put it away, never to come back.  Also, you need to take it to a special place to be disposed of...

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## Ron Hale

> --snip--
>   Also, you need to take it to a special place to be disposed of...


You mean in the back yard, on the neighbor's side of the fence?

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## llg

I have a question for the experts...I plan on finishing a mandolin soon and have been doing my research.  This older thread has been very helpful.   Okay, question is...I really want to try my hand at french polish  shellac finish.   And want to hand rub the burst, but it looks like alcohol dyes will be more difficult than water based.  Is this correct?  And will you get a color stable  result using water based burst with french polish shellac top coat?

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## Loudloar

Potassium Dichromate is a known carcinogen. You do not want to breath the powder form or have skin contact in any form. I can't recommend its use because of the health hazard. Its effect on wood is enhanced by exposing it to sunlight. A dilute form will result in light brown stain, stronger solutions can get very dark brown. Violin makers have used it for eons to enhance grain, antique the insides of instruments before assembly, etc. There are safer ways to do the job. If you do use it you should use rubber gloves, a breathing mask and eye protection.

Steve

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## Tavy

Not sure where dichromate comes into this...   llg, I use water based dyes with shellac over and it works just fine.  That said, I have found that the water based dyes I use (Liberon) don't penetrate the wood that much - maybe 'cos the water doesn't penetrate?  So be sure to raise the grain and rub back a few times before applying the dye as if you need to sand after applying the dye, you have to be _very_ careful.  You do also get some leakage of the dye onto the pad when applying the first coat or two - it doesn't really lift the dye much, just make your pad dirty, so be careful when moving from dyed to un-dyed areas not to spread the color.  Obviously spraying the first coat would fix that issue, but as long as you're careful and quick with a light touch with the pad you're basically OK.

HTH, John.

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## llg

Thanks for the response.   By raising the grain, do you mean wet the wood with water rag first as in the Cordino video, or do you mean just rub back and forth considerably with the first dye rag to achieve a more thorough penetration of the base color?

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## Tavy

> Thanks for the response.   By raising the grain, do you mean wet the wood with water rag first as in the Cordino video, or do you mean just rub back and forth considerably with the first dye rag to achieve a more thorough penetration of the base color?


I mean wet, let it dry, sand off the raised grain, then repeat till the grain stops rising up.  Obviously don't sand too much with each iteration or you're back to square one - a light sand with 320 grit or so is fine.

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## llg

Thanks for clarifying...I'll give that a try.

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## Andy Morton

Water based dyes (transtint and transfast from woodcraft) worked really well for me under a classic french polish.  Here is a good youtube video that I found helpful:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a159B...feature=relmfu

Andy

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## Nick Gellie

> I took these pictures myself so I couldn't show the 'burst in progress, but I rub medium brown dye around the edges and blend it into the center with a rag soaked in alcohol and wrung out. When that color is done, I use a dark reddish brown and repeat the process but I don't go as far toward the center.


John

When you use the reddish brown, do you go all over and leave out the centre as per the medium brown mentioned in the start of your reply.

Have you changed any of your approach since 2009?

Thanks

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## Jeff Hildreth

"Martin has a history of doing the most hideous sunbursts of all time, and I say this as a long time fan of Martin guitars."

Completely agree.. absolutely the worst; and the worst of the worst is when they built the CEO 4 ( I believe)  a copy of a Gibson, and they used cheap low grade Adirondack for the top and to hide it  slathered on a hideous eggplant to yellow "sun" burst that looked like Martian vomit.


I use alcohol based stains applied with a cloth ...

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## sunburst

> John
> 
> When you use the reddish brown, do you go all over and leave out the centre as per the medium brown mentioned in the start of your reply.
> 
> Have you changed any of your approach since 2009?


The dark red/brown goes around the outside edge, is blended into the medium brown, which blends into the center color. So, you have a dark edge that blends into a medium brown that blends into the center. It's like concentric rings of color that blend from one to another.
I have not changed my approach since 1988 or so, other than adapting to various different dyes.

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## Nick Gellie

> The dark red/brown goes around the outside edge, is blended into the medium brown, which blends into the center color. So, you have a dark edge that blends into a medium brown that blends into the center. It's like concentric rings of color that blend from one to another.
> I have not changed my approach since 1988 or so, other than adapting to various different dyes.


Thanks John.  That helps to clarify your method you outlined.  The concentric rings approach makes it easier to understand.  Do you use any different colours now?  If so, what sort of burst are you after now, given that you had a preference back then based on a photo you inserted into the thread.

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## David Houchens

I learned the art of sunbursting from John "Sunburst". The only thing I've added ( and maybe he taught me and I forgot) is I like to use a clean dry rag at times to help in blending when I'm very close to the look I want. 
 If you follow John's procedure you should end up with a very nice burst.
 John, I signed up for a 3-4 week "tour of duty" at the factory spray booth, as Ethan left without notice. Didn't take long to remember why I work for myself. Training new employee.

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## sunburst

David, you must have figured out the dry rag by yourself, I don't remember ever doing that. (Sounds like you need an agent to negotiate contracts for you!)

Nick, I'm still going for the same traditional color as always. On those occasions when I can put one of my mando's next to a Loar, the colors match pretty darned well. I don't always use the same dyes in the same proportions to achieve that, though, because different wood responds differently to the dyes.
Sometimes I do 'bursts that are custom colors, and sometimes "redbursts" like Teens and early '20's Gibsons.

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## Bill Snyder

I am being lazy and not looking to see if John's video on sunbursting has been linked to previously.

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## Mandoborg

I LOVE doing banjo resonators like this. It's hard to stop and you can get into trouble really fast !!  :Laughing:

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## Nick Gellie

John, What colour dyes do you use to get your reddish bursts?  The reason I am asking is that I plan to build an H-4 and like the orange Cremona look that Tom Ellis and Andrew Mowry create- somewhere in between the classic Loar look you are after and the teens Gibson look.

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## sunburst

That "A-4" was done with Transtint "vintage amber" all over, then a mixed red color using "red" and little bits of whatever I needed to get the color to match the old Gibsons I had in the shop, followed by a darker mixed color. You might notice, if you watch the video, that I occasionally pick up a damaged F-4 top to check the color match. I use primary colors (red, blue and yellow) to "push" colors closer if they don't match what I need to match. I can't tell you what I used to mix either the intermediate color or the dark red/brown outer color because I added drops of primary colors and some black aniline powder until I had the color I needed. I think the darkest dye was a dark brown, black, red and some blue to counter the underlying yellow. There may have been other bits of color, and I have no idea what proportions. Basically, it's something you have to figure out for yourself depending on the dyes you use, the colors you want, your experience with 'bursts, and the wood you're working with. You'll have to practice on scrap to learn your dyes and how to get the results you want.

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## jwpope

John, What brand/type of sprayer are you using in the video? Also, If you pad on shellac afterwards (not sure you do) how do you keep the alcohol from moving the color around?

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## sunburst

That's a Badger airbrush. Nothing fancy. (I've used other brands that I like better, but I bought this one before I knew any better, and it does the job.)
I spray shellac to seal. First coat just a mist and let it dry a bit. That locks the colors in place, then another light coat or two and that's it.

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## Kennyz55

John,  what type of alcohol do you thin the colors with?  Behlens?
Thanks,
Newbie Kenny

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## Kennyz55

I ask because Charlie Derrington said "I think I have already answered this question. I don't like the Behlen's. In reference to the oil question: Always use a sealer (shellac works good) before applying oil. Remember, each coat will be a mechanical bond (non-chemical) and as you apply each coat, the previous has to be scuffed to accept the next. We used to brush the oil varnish but I have found a way to spray it. Very, very, thin coats and you have to experiment with the varnish/turpentine mix to get it right. You also have to try different air/mix settings and gun proximity to get it just right. It is very difficult to spray and you'll have to do a lot of tests to make sure you don't get it too thick or thin in application and coat thickness." in this article http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...77#post1289577

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## sunburst

Hardware store denatured alcohol.

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## Nick Gellie

John, I have a question on which solvent you use in relation to the kind of final finish.  If your preference is for alcohol based dyes, then how would Shellac sealer affect the tint and colour if one was to use Shellac and French polish finish?  If you finished with lacquer or varnish, would you go with a water-based Transtint sunburst?

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## sunburst

I'm not good at FP, so I don't do it for full finishes, only for occasional touch-ups, therefore, I can't comment on what to do with dyes under a FP finish.
I've never used water soluble Transtints, only alcohol soluble. I seal with sprayed shellac, and follow the sealer with lacquer or varnish. I've used several different varnishes, but the prep is the same. I use Golden Grain alcohol (from the liquor store) in my shellac, rather than denatured.

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## amowry

Once Transtint dries, it's the same whether you used alcohol or water to dilute it. So, the choice of alcohol vs. water is purely one of which you prefer for application. They each have their pros and cons. Water raises the grain more and dries more slowly (the latter can be good for blending sunbursts). Alcohol tends to bite into the binding more, making it more difficult to scrape the dye off later.

If you're French polishing on top of Transtint, you need to spray a couple of coats of shellac first to seal it well, and then be careful when you begin French polishing not to disturb it.

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Tommcgtx

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## Nick Gellie

Thanks Andrew and John,

Very useful replies.  Interesting about the alcohol causing the dye to blend into the binding more.  Make sense.  I might try on some scraps of timber first using the dyes diluted in water or alcohol and test the results.

BTW Andrew your article on binding an F5 mandolin in American Luthiery Magazine is excellent.  Thanks for spending the time doing it.

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## amowry

Thanks very much, Nick!

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