# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Loar's Mando/Viola 70321

## Ken Waltham

I am curious about this instrument, and have a couple of questions for discussion.
First, I see this as very possibly having what later became the Tenor Lute body. I've had three TL's, and it looks spot on to me. However, none of those have, to my knowledge, a maple back and sides. They are birch. Could this be true, and they later became TL's for the simple reason F holed mandolas, or 10 strings wouldn't have caught on?
Secondly, has anyone ever played this instrument? How would a 10 string sound?? I have toyed with idea of converting a TL to these specs, but, is that a bad idea?
Third; looking at the archive, the tuning Lloyd used was ADGCF. I am not sure I could make sense out of that. Why that tuning, and not a mandolin/mandola tuning?

I have entered some photos of a TL for discussion, but, cannot seem to figure out how to get the real thing from the archives. Can someone help with that?
Thanks!

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## Eddie Sheehy

F being the 5th BELOW the C - Mandola tuning?  You could probably push it up a string to CGDAE... or if going high to low EADGC... and that means adding a peg - so for a 10-string you would double the strings and add 6 pegs?  
I'm missing the whole point of this, am I not?

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## BradKlein

From the Archive.

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Bob Bass

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## Timbofood

I really like the inclusion of the saw!  He must have "kerf" tuned that, no?

Dobbs, "Say mister, can you stake a fellow American to a meal?"
Sorry Jaycat, can't top the beans line! Too funny!!

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## Ken Waltham

> F being the 5th BELOW the C - Mandola tuning?  You could probably push it up a string to CGDAE... or if going high to low EADGC... and that means adding a peg - so for a 10-string you would double the strings and add 6 pegs?  
> I'm missing the whole point of this, am I not?


 So are you thinking the F is the low string? Hadn't looked at it like that...

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## mrmando

According to Siminoff the tuning was (high to low) Eb, C, F, Bb, and Eb. So, a major third below mandolin tuning, but with the high string tuned to the same note as the bass string. 

There were two mando-violas; the other had an oval hole and AFAIK is lost.

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hank

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## Darryl Wolfe

I played it.  It was tuned down.  I tried my best to tune it up as-is to something that felt right and arrived at mandola tuning plus a fret or two in timbre

I believe it would be good to note, that the instument does not seem to be completely a June '22 experimentation.  If so, then we have some of our other thinking a bit out of kilter.

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hank

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## pfox14

I really don't know what Gibson was thinking with the TL. Seems like a bad idea from the get go, and sales certainly proved that there wasn't much interest in such an odd instrument.

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## BradKlein

Has anyone taken exact measurements of the Loar 10 string and compared them to the Tenor Lutes out there? And did the TL body share dimensions exactly with the oval hole H mandolas?  We should be able to figure this out on this thread.

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## Darryl Wolfe

> Has anyone taken exact measurements of the Loar 10 string and compared them to the Tenor Lutes out there? And did the TL body share dimensions exactly with the oval hole H mandolas?  We should be able to figure this out on this thread.



Yes, yes and yes.

And additionally, the FON's on the TL's pre-date their completion and support my theory on the 1925 A suffixed instruments

| 77282  | 3247   | TL    | NULL |     0 | 1924 |
| 77598  | 11180a | TL    | NULL |     0 | 1924 |
| 77260  | 11177A | TL    | NULL |     0 | NULL |
| 77636  | 11177  | TL    | NULL |     0 | NULL |
| 77637  | 11177  | TL    | NULL |     0 | NULL |
| 77259  | 11177A | TL    | NULL |     0 | 1924 |
| 77290  | 11177A | TL    | NULL |     0 | NULL |
+--------+--------+-------+------+-------+------+


We can also see that the Mando-viola FON 70321/11729 roughly fits with the serial number.  This supports that it was a one-off instrument constructed mainly in the experimental stages of the F5 time.


70308   11669   L3
70321   11729   (no model)
70336   11692   A
70383   11696   F4
70409   11693   A2
70556   11480   H1
70603   11169   A
70610   11699   A
70625   11668   L1
70660   11634   Ajr
70669   11667   F2
70795   11720   A
70909   11707   H4
70946   11703   F4
70982   11698   Ljr
71069   11609   F5
71074   11721   F4
71080   11548   F4
71234   11711   A4
71239   11711   A4
71249   11753   A
71261   11753   A
71303   11750   A2
71458   11755   A
71462   11755   A

But look at the FON's and serial numbers in the time frame of the TL FON's  (11177)

46848   11121   F4
46856   11131   F4
46977   11090   F2
47269   11132   H1
47300   11095   O
47601   11128   L3
47641   11144   A
47897   11164   A3
48010   11145   A
48043   11145   A
48401   11032   F4
48851   1170    H2
49171   11200   O
49190   11163   A3
49230   11193   A3
49534   11186   F4

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Bob Bass, 

BradKlein, 

hank

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Thanks a lot, Darryl. It all makes sense.

The "1925 A suffixes" just like the 1924 A suffixes support the idea of a company desperately needing to save money.
Unlike 1922 and 1923, when Gibson got into financial trouble, 1924 was hardly a year for overproduction. Apparently, lots of hitherto incomplete instruments were completed that year, including at least two H5s. The same year, many F4s were sold, complete F4s with 1923 FONs that is, no need for producing new F4s. Hence, I wouldn't expect many F4 FONs in 1924. In fact, Joe Spann lists only one. Possibly a bad year for producing new models from scratch, especially expensive F mandos...   :Grin:  (Sorry Ken, I couldn't resist.)

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## goaty76

We know the Mando-Viola is a Loar instrument because of the photo of Loar with it in the "experimental laboratory".  One thing I've always wondered about the Mando-Viola is if we found it today without any pictures of it from the past would it be considered a "Loar" instrument or would it simply be an interesting one off piece from that period.  I say that currently owning another one of these experimental instruments from this period also not having a label directly tying it to Loar.  Sure would be nice if I had a pic of him holding it though.


(Details on it in Fretboard Journal #25)


Phil

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## mrmando

Well, you could try PhotoShop but I doubt you'd fool anyone.

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## BradKlein

> Thanks a lot, Darryl. It all makes sense.


I can't quite say the same for me, but I'm happy to thank Darryl even if the nuances of Loar FON and serial numbers elude me!

So IF I understand correctly, the Tenor Lutes all have an FON that suggest that they were begun as early as the late teens, but serial numbers that place them in the 'Loar years' of 1923 and 1924? And the lone mando-viola also basically conforms to that. 

So does the FON 11177 suggest that there was an idea to create an A-5 style mandolas as early as 1918 (around the time of 48000 serial numbers)? Or would Gibson have roughed out H sized mandola bodies without a sound hole, and then in 1923? after they'd been lying around for a while, decided to cut ff-holes for the tenor lutes?

Please forgive me if I've completely misunderstood the posts above!

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## Ken Waltham

Brad; I think that is what we are seeing. I believe..( and I'm not exactly sure I'm getting this data either) is that these were all H1 style mandola bodies that at this point were without tops. Then, during Loar's tenure, and the whole violin to mandolin thing, they put F hole style tops on these incomplete bodies. My guess would be the mando/viola comes first, then, when wondering what on earth to do with the rest of these, and, in the start of the banjo/tango craze, they stick tenor banjo necks on the rest.
Just my guess.
Ken

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## Ken Waltham

So, I want to go back to my original question for a moment. How does the 10 string version, when tuned properly, sound for today's player? Is it a bad idea to convert a TL to Loar's idea of a 10 string??

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## mrmando

When was the Lyon & Healy pear-shaped tenor guitar first available? 

AFAIK the first commercially available tenor guitars were either the Gibson tenor lutes or the L&Hs. It's possible that one was conceived to compete with the other.

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## bratsche

> According to Siminoff the tuning was (high to low) Eb, C, F, Bb, and Eb. So, a major third below mandolin tuning, but with the high string tuned to the same note as the bass string. 
> 
> There were two mando-violas; the other had an oval hole and AFAIK is lost.


I don't even get why "viola" is in the name anywhere, if it's not tuned anything like one.   :Confused: 

bratsche

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## William Smith

> So, I want to go back to my original question for a moment. How does the 10 string version, when tuned properly, sound for today's player? Is it a bad idea to convert a TL to Loar's idea of a 10 string??


Convert it Ken, Ya may have something fun to mess around with? Hell I like my F-7 conversions! If ya have one or so that needs work anyway go for it. I've thaught about converting one, I believe ya can also convert the wide bell shaped bodied A models from the 30's to a mandola? Billy Smith

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## mrmando

> I don't even get why "viola" is in the name anywhere, if it's not tuned anything like one.


And there's nothing English about the English horn. And French fries originated in Belgium.

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bratsche

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## Dawg

Greetings fellow lovers of Loar lore. I borrowed this unique instrument from it's very knowledgeable custodian (at the time) to see how it would sound on a recording. I tuned the instrument (as I thought it was intended) to CGDAE (low to high) and recall that due to the scale length I had to use the very thinnest of E strings (.009 I believe) and still broke a few during the process. The results were issued on the Warner's LP Dawg Grass/Dawg Jazz (currently out of print) and more recently on Dawg Plays Big Mon. Here are the results of this experience!

----------

Andrew B. Carlson, 

Bernie Daniel, 

billhay4, 

Bluetickhound, 

Bob Bass, 

BradKlein, 

Charlieshafer, 

danb, 

dang, 

Daniel Nestlerode, 

Darryl Wolfe, 

delsbrother, 

doc holiday, 

Elliot Luber, 

Ethan Setiawan, 

f5joe, 

fentonjames, 

hank, 

Ivyguitar, 

Jim Garber, 

Jordan Ramsey, 

lottarope, 

mandomedic, 

MarkELynch, 

Marty Jacobson, 

Masterbilt, 

Mike Crocker, 

mikeyjc, 

mrmando, 

Perry Babasin, 

Robert Moreau, 

roberto, 

Roman Pekar, 

Scott Tichenor, 

sgarrity, 

SternART, 

testore, 

Tommcgtx, 

Toni Schula, 

weindan, 

William Smith

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## bluesmandolinman

now THAT is a 1. Post !

Thanks !

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## Ivyguitar

I was the first person to say thanks to the DAWG!!!!  

Scott, Please record me in the footnotes of Mandolin Cafe History!


Edit- Well, I was the second person.  Maybe I will get to be a footnote in the unabridged second addtion.

Hey Dawg- you are the best.

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, Dawg, for that wonderful mp3! Do you remember what the scale length was?

I was wondering if any luthier has attempted to make an accurate copy of that mandolin.

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## Larry S Sherman

I have a similar style 10-string, although oval and not a copy of Loar's instrument. Like the Dawg I use a very light E string, but they don't break anymore than normal strings.

I love it for the extended range and ability to move 4-string chords up and down.

Larry

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## Dawg

I wasn't measuring scale lengths back then Jim, however my personal scale length was 5' 10.5" at the time so you might be able to deduce it from the photo!

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mandoross, 

Perry Babasin, 

Timbofood

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## danb

nice clip Dawg  :Smile: 

A couple notes to add.. I reckon A TL -> 10-string would work just fine. The birch back would probably sound different on a TL than on the Mando-viola.

This one with the F-holes was not the first 10-string of this type.. not even the first Gibson. Loar is pictured with an oval-holed H2 (we think) that obviously has 10 tuning pegs. Where's that one, I have often wondered!

I owned a couple Vegas at one point that were 10-string.. one mandolin-scale, one mandola-scale. I currently have a sobell "Cittern" (also called "large bodied mandola" for disambiguation purposes) that has a 20 3/4 scale, and is tuned GDAEA bass to treble.

Having 5 courses in 5ths seems to result in a shrill top string (as Dawg says, a .009 that is very easy to snap too!), or a floppy bottom string that gives intonation problems from not enough tension. It looks like Lawrence Smart has worked around this very well with fanned fretted 10-string instruments. 

There are some Monteleone 10-string Grand Artists about.. I've never been in the right place/right time to get my hands on one though.

My personal suggestion for these would be to go with a ~21" scale, and work roughly in the range of OM + a top A to get best results. Myself and other Irish bouzoukist pals have tried all sorts of tunings with different positive results- mostly finding that drones, open tunings, old-timey sawmill/dead man's tuning/irish bouzouki GDAD etc all have very nice synergies and a truly great haunting tone.

I reckon I'll go down this path too at some point, seeking an F-holed 10-string OM + top A  :Smile:

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hank

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## danb

a couple photos showing the older 10-string

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hank

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## Jim Garber

> I wasn't measuring scale lengths back then Jim, however my personal scale length was 5' 10.5" at the time so you might be able to deduce it from the photo!


My guess would be 16"-17" -- prob same as a Gibson mandola. Some of the more engineering types here can prob extrapolate from your PSL. 




> This one with the F-holes was not the first 10-string of this type.. not even the first Gibson. Loar is pictured with an oval-holed H2 (we think) that obviously has 10 tuning pegs. Where's that one, I have often wondered!


I remember seeing at least one 12-string A-oval at We Buy Guitars in NYC back in the early 1980s. I don't recall any 10 strings tho.




> I owned a couple Vegas at one point that were 10-string.. one mandolin-scale, one mandola-scale. I currently have a sobell "Cittern" (also called "large bodied mandola" for disambiguation purposes) that has a 20 3/4 scale, and is tuned GDAEA bass to treble.
> 
> Having 5 courses in 5ths seems to result in a shrill top string (as Dawg says, a .009 that is very easy to snap too!), or a floppy bottom string that gives intonation problems from not enough tension. It looks like Lawrence Smart has worked around this very well with fanned fretted 10-string instruments.


I had the short-scale Vega and the c-string just didn't make it. I think it would have to be either super heavy or super floppy. I was going to say that the fan-fret idea might be the best solution, tho, personally I would prefer the least amount of fanning, in other words, the minimum for allowing optimum string gauges. 




> There are some Monteleone 10-string Grand Artists about.. I've never been in the right place/right time to get my hands on one though.


I played a Monteleone 10-string prob at Mandolin Brothers many decades ago. I don't know if John has built any recent 10-strings but I recall that I thought that that one also had the same problem with string gauges.

I know that Sobell made 10 string citterns and I believe that those were pretty successful. What scales did those have?

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## danb

> I know that Sobell made 10 string citterns and I believe that those were pretty successful. What scales did those have?


Lots of different ones! Here's an old ascii chart I did of some variations Stefan Sobell used at the time compared to some other more common things like fiddles, guitars, etc

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hank, 

Jim Garber, 

Marty Jacobson

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## sgarrity

This is the coolest site on the internet!

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hank, 

testore

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## Ken Waltham

[QUOTE=Dawg;1282570]Greetings fellow lovers of Loar lore. I borrowed this unique instrument from it's very knowledgeable custodian (at the time) to see how it would sound on a recording. I tuned the instrument (as I thought it was intended) to CGDAE (low to high) and recall that due to the scale length I had to use the very thinnest of E strings (.009 I believe) and still broke a few during the process. 
Thanks, David. I too would have tuned it that way until I looked at the note on the archives. I figured it would have doubled as a mandolin/mandola all in one instrument, but, I don't believe that's what Lloyd was thinking.
BTW, it really sounds great, with nice tone. It pushes all my Loar buttons!
Dan, where did we get that tuning note from? Didn't Roger have a different idea of tuning the mando/viola?
My guess on scale length would be 15 7/8, like an H5.

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## Ivyguitar

In the first photo of A. Loar above, it appears that he is whipping it like a mule.

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## Bernie Daniel

> I wasn't measuring scale lengths back then Jim, however my personal scale length was 5' 10.5" at the time so you might be able to deduce it from the photo!


*Then* you were 70.5 inches Mr. Dawg?  Has all the picking taken a toll on your scale length?   Thanks for the great mp3 -- WS has always been one of my favorites tunes and the best version is the one on the Mandolin Extravaganza project with you and Mr. Sam --IMO.

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## Perry Babasin

Love this!!

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## danb

Ken- I had older notes of Eb Bb F C F too! If it's mandola scale, CGDAE makes the most sense to me. I have scans somewhere of the Vega catalog describing the 10-stringers (though I lost my originals somehow!).. I will also hunt for those.

I let Roger know about the thread as I'm quite curious to hear his recollections too

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## Buffalo Sam

Back in 1992 I got Oliver Apitius to build me a 10-string mandolin.  Loar's 10-string, which I believe was mandola scale length, as that is what I believe he played for the most part, was at least partly the inspiration for it.  As I was a mandolin player, it was built to mandolin scale length. Oliver called it a mandalto. It's been GREAT as is really the only mandolin I've played for 22 years. And now I finally have a good 5-string fiddle to match it.  I realize this is just slightly off topic but add it for interest to people thinking about 10-string mandolin family instruments.

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## Charlieshafer

This thread has obviously passed the way-cool stage, but back, for some unknown reason, to Ken's original picture. The wood-topped tenor or 5-string banjo seems to crop up from time to time, and I'm not sure why. I had one from the turn of the century, possibly a Buckbee, which was one quiet instrument but cool to look at. Far from being an extinct species, here's a recent sighting from Romero banjos:

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## brent1308

My question: did no one try to register as Dawg prior to February 2013 or did Scott have the foresight to reject Dawg- wannabes until the real one came along?  What a great site!

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## Scott Tichenor

You're correct. Only one person was ever going to get that user name.

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Bluetickhound, 

brent1308, 

hank, 

lottarope, 

Marty Jacobson, 

Michael Weaver, 

robert.najlis, 

sgrexa

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## Mandomusic

Regarding the Monteleone 10 string Grand Artist hybrids (mandolin/mandola). I played several in John's shop circa the late 70's, early 80's. The C notes seemed compromised. While the high notes sound good, judgmentally, you can hear similar (less then ideal) C note tone in this recent video being played at Carter's in Nashville:

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## Darryl Wolfe

> I can't quite say the same for me, but I'm happy to thank Darryl even if the nuances of Loar FON and serial numbers elude me!
> 
> So IF I understand correctly, the Tenor Lutes all have an FON that suggest that they were begun as early as the late teens, but serial numbers that place them in the 'Loar years' of 1923 and 1924? And the lone mando-viola also basically conforms to that. 
> 
> So does the FON 11177 suggest that there was an idea to create an A-5 style mandolas as early as 1918 (around the time of 48000 serial numbers)? Or would Gibson have roughed out H sized mandola bodies without a sound hole, and then in 1923? after they'd been lying around for a while, decided to cut ff-holes for the tenor lutes?
> 
> Please forgive me if I've completely misunderstood the posts above!




First off, Thanks Dawg for posting

Regarding Brad's comment....what I am suggesting is that FON 11177 started life intended to be a 1918 era H1 mandola.  There probably are some.  But left over sides and backs eventually became TL's in the Loar era of 1924/1925.  The carving form for the Mando viola top was likely used and simply paired with a banjo neck.

Mr. Waltham (or someone with access to a TL) could likely solve this piece of the discussion by looking through the end pin to verify that there is an FON on the headblock in addition to the readable 11177A (or what ever it is) under the f-hole

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## Tavy

> Lots of different ones! Here's an old ascii chart I did of some variations Stefan Sobell used at the time compared to some other more common things like fiddles, guitars, etc


Excellent!  But your middle C is an octave too low - it should be the C above the mandolin G string (261.6Hz).

Nitpickingly yours, John.

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hank

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## BradKlein

Thanks again, Darryl. It's just hard for me to imagine that any part of the TL was fully shaped as early as 1918. And if they had assembled H1 bodies, it's hard for me to imagine Gibson deciding to de-top and re-top them! And hardest to imagine is back and side assemblies sitting around for years with no tops, warping out of shape.

I can report that TL#77289 has an FON#11177A stamped on its back, but nothing visibly stamped or written on what appears to be a mahogany neck block. Seems to also have a maple neck and quite modest 2 piece plain-sawn birch or maple back.

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## re simmers

Thanks for the great clip of Wayfaring Stranger.

I'm an engineer wannabe.    But, I need to know if the 5' 10.5" is including the semi-afro?   :Wink: 

Bob

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## Ken Waltham

Mr. Waltham (or someone with access to a TL) could likely solve this piece of the discussion by looking through the end pin to verify that there is an FON on the headblock in addition to the readable 11177A (or what ever it is) under the f-hole[/QUOTE]

OK, had a look inside the TL tonight. Stamped FON in the treble F hole is 11180A.
There are no markings on the neck block, internally.
The other one I own is not here currently, but, I remember it had no mark on the neck block either, only in the treble F hole. 11177A.
Ken

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## Lorenzo LaRue

> Greetings fellow lovers of Loar lore. I borrowed this unique instrument from it's very knowledgeable custodian (at the time) to see how it would sound on a recording. I tuned the instrument (as I thought it was intended) to CGDAE (low to high) and recall that due to the scale length I had to use the very thinnest of E strings (.009 I believe) and still broke a few during the process. The results were issued on the Warner's LP Dawg Grass/Dawg Jazz (currently out of print) and more recently on Dawg Plays Big Mon. Here are the results of this experience!


The Wayfaring Stranger mp3 seems to connect to an *.htm file that when opened comes up just as coding.

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## siminoff

Loar's 10-string mandoviola is a wonderful instrument and as mrmando mentioned, Loar tuned it to _Eb, C, F, Bb and Eb_ (treble to bass). When Dawg borrowed it from me for the "Wayfairing Stranger" cut on his Dawg Grass album (1982), he tuned it to the conventional _E, A, D, G, C_ mandola tuning, and as only Dawg could, he brought out the wonderful voice of this instrument and tuning. If my memory serves me correctly, the scale length was 15-5/8", it has a Virzi Tone Producer and a real three-piece neck (I say this because as you all know, most other Gibson instruments of the time that looked like a three-piece neck were actually one piece with an inset dyed pear wood strip to give the appearance of a three-piece neck). Here is another photo of it being played by Nell VerCies (left to right are Loar, Dorothy Crane, (Sally) Fisher Shipp (standing, Loar's first wife), James Johnstone (also head of Gibson's string division), Nell, and Lucille Campbell; all of the Fisher Shipp Orchestra. 

The instruments in the case included a musical saw, and Loar's electric viola from his Nov. 1935 patent (#2,020,842), So while the mandoviola was made while he was a Gibson, all three instruments were not combined in this case until the early 1930s.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

hank, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

SternART, 

Timbofood, 

Tommcgtx

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## Darryl Wolfe

Brad....my theory does not include de-topping.  I firmly believe rims sets and tops and backs layed around unfinished but with FON's to indicate what they were for and for tracking costs and inventory

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BradKlein

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## Wolfbane Stevens

> Loar's 10-string mandoviola is a wonderful instrument and as mrmando mentioned, Loar tuned it to _Eb, C, F, Bb and Eb_ (treble to bass). When Dawg borrowed it from me for the "Wayfairing Stranger" cut on his Dawg Grass album (1982), he tuned it to the conventional _E, A, D, G, C_ mandola tuning, and as only Dawg could, he brought out the wonderful voice of this instrument and tuning. If my memory serves me correctly, the scale length was 15-5/8", it has a Virzi Tone Producer and a real three-piece neck (I say this because as you all know, most other Gibson instruments of the time that looked like a three-piece neck were actually one piece with an inset dyed pear wood strip to give the appearance of a three-piece neck). Here is another photo of it being played by Nell VerCies (left to right are Loar, Dorothy Crane, (Sally) Fisher Shipp (standing, Loar's first wife), James Johnstone (also head of Gibson's string division), Nell, and Lucille Campbell; all of the Fisher Shipp Orchestra. 
> 
> The instruments in the case included a musical saw, and Loar's electric viola from his Nov. 1935 patent (#2,020,842), So while the mandoviola was made while he was a Gibson, all three instruments were not combined in this case until the early 1930s.


Mr. Siminoff - I often wondered about the statement _"Loar tuned it to Eb, C, F, Bb and Eb (treble to bass)"_. Is this something you found in his notes, was it the way it was tuned when you discovered it, or is there something else I am missing? While I have your ear, I also wondered if he had left his stringed instruments you found in storage tuned to pitch, or if he had detuned them to relieve some tension. Must have been quite the afternoon discovering these treasures! Thank you for your time in advance if you have a moment to answer.

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## siminoff

Wolfbane… The tunings were publicized along with various announcements of his mandoviola, not in his notes. I really don't remember how that instrument was tuned when I got it - I was much less concerned about how it was tuned and more excited that I had found the instrument that was in the "workbench" photo. The electric viola was not tuned up to pitch. His F5 was moderately out of tune when I got it, but not slacked, and a few strings were broken. His August Diehl viola was also moderately out of tune, but not slacked; the bows were slacked but needed re-hairing. (The string tubes with his name written on the side, still have new viola strings in them.) There were actually four discovery times: 1-mandoviola with electric viola and musical saw; 2-August Diehl viola; 3-keyboard instruments/amplifiers/books of notes; and 4-F5 with electric pickup. And you are absolutely right about it being "quite the afternoon" - I still savor the memories, and I'm glad to be able to share the excitement and information with you all.  Roger

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

BradKlein, 

Darryl Wolfe, 

hank, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

SternART, 

Tommcgtx, 

William Smith, 

Wolfbane Stevens

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## Timbofood

So Roger, how does the saw sound? :Grin:

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## JeffD

> You're correct. Only one person was ever going to get that user name.


 :Smile:

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## William Smith

We are all very blessed with this knowledge, Kudos to Roger and Dawg. can one just imagine talking with some widow about her long gone husband and showing massive interest !she mentions  "by the way" I have all his crates he packed up! would ya like to see whats in em?, If thats how the story goes remember kindness goes a long way!

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## siminoff

Bluegrasser78 I was very close with Loar's widow Bertha until her death in 1998 (first meeting her in 1975); she had a sister in South Carolina, but no local friends or family. The time with her and the stories she shared were wonderful. (I had the pleasure of bringing both Mike Longworth and John Monteleone to meet with her, and they too enjoyed the experience - but that's another story.) Actually, I never pressed Bertha about Loar's instruments and focused more on ensuring that she was well taken care of. I spoke to her almost daily. After she broke her hip in 1990 and went into a nursing home, I took over custodial care and financial responsibility for her, paying her bills - what little there was of them - and so on. (My son Mark lived in Santa Monica - a nearby town to where Bertha lived in Englewood, CA - and he would often go over to change a light bulb, move something for her, and similar.) One day I went to her house (which was not yet sold at the time) to pick up the mail and there was an invoice from a local storage facility for "three crates." When I went over to visit Bertha, I asked her what the invoice was for and she said "I don't know, I just get the invoice so I pay it." (I'm sure glad she did!) So I called Mark and asked him to get the crates and bring them to Bertha's garage (which turned out to be a back-and-forth ordeal because he needed her signature, etc.). Anyway, I think I stopped breathing when Mark called me to tell me what was in the crates.  -- Now you know how "the story goes." . R

----------

alfie, 

Bernie Daniel, 

Bigtuna, 

BradKlein, 

CharlieKnuth, 

chasray, 

Darryl Wolfe, 

hank, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Jim Garber, 

Mike Black, 

Timbofood, 

Tommcgtx, 

William Smith

----------


## Timbofood

It's so important to honor and take care of elders! Blessings on you and your house Roger! There are too many instances of neglect.

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## j. condino

> ..I firmly believe rims sets and tops and backs layed around unfinished but with FON's to indicate what they were for and for tracking costs and inventory


Anyone that has worked in a production setup or instrument factory can tell endless stories of mind numbing days when you make up parts for the next few months- hundreds of partially worked neck blanks, fingerboards, rim assemblies.....factory work is factory work, regardless of the company or end product. Often the overstock will wind up lost in a backroom until someone remembers it or it is dragged out a few years later.

j.
www.condino.com

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BradKlein

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## Andy Hatfield

sounds good while Tyler's playing it!

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## William Smith

Life has truly blessed you Roger. And its great that you took care of her in her final days, anyone should hope for some kind of kindness like that in the twilight years,when so many old timers are simply put forgot about! And I bet the stories she told were amazing! she was pry in awe with the interest that you had after so many years in Loars studies/experiments.  Would've been a treasure to unearth all them goods/notebooks after 50 years or so. All that history by a modern genius well a head of his time, pickups in the mid 20's etc...Simply Kool,

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## mandolino maximus

> It's so important to honor and take care of elders! Blessings on you and your house Roger! There are too many instances of neglect.


One instance of neglect is "too many."  That said, I wouldn't assume that every lonely elder necessarily got that way by way of the irresponsibility of others.  After seeing off the grandparents and a couple of friends by way of old age, nursing home and hospice, there is one couple closely related to me that are now proving that human beings who are petty, selfish, arrogant, mean and drive friends and family away get old and worse too.  And no, it isn't dementia or alzheimer's.  No automatic pedestals and no blanket condemnations.

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## Glassweb

Mr. Siminoff... you are a _mench_ and I mean that in the best of ways... good on ya!

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## Scott Tichenor

Some of the images of the instrument in question (and others) in this thread can be accessed in higher resolution form from the University of Iowa database that has a wealth of early Fisher Shipp information and pictures of Lloyd Loar. We've shared these links and images off and on for years now. There are other bits of interesting mandolin information in this database if you want to dig around and spend some time searching.

----------

BradKlein, 

hank, 

Jim Garber, 

Mandomusic, 

SternART

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## William Smith

Now this may be a dumb ?! Maybe its been answered but I've always been curious and into the history of everything. So here it goes Is there any recordings that Loar made in the teens up till the 30's? You'd think he would, there were recording devices back then? He was considered a virtuoso talent on many instruments. Like Roger said in a way it would've been something to "hear" what Loa was doin with a pickup on his F-5! I just find it odd I can't find any recordings. Dave Appolan even had recordings, some real old and while Dave was a fantastic player, I think he got terrible tone out of his F-5's on some recordings.

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## danb

... 


> are there any recordings that Loar made


 ...



I've often wondered that perhaps we just haven't found them. Seems like the odds were fairly good! There's a good list of well-known players from back in the day, it would make for an interesting library of congress search. I'm not sure quite what's involved in that, anyone here a library science specialist or knowledgeable on those matters?

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## Martin Jonas

> Greetings fellow lovers of Loar lore. I borrowed this unique instrument from it's very knowledgeable custodian (at the time) to see how it would sound on a recording. I tuned the instrument (as I thought it was intended) to CGDAE (low to high) and recall that due to the scale length I had to use the very thinnest of E strings (.009 I believe) and still broke a few during the process. The results were issued on the Warner's LP Dawg Grass/Dawg Jazz (currently out of print) and more recently on Dawg Plays Big Mon. Here are the results of this experience!


Great recording!

For what it's worth, I also own a 10-string of similar 1920s vintage and similar 16"-ish scale, but much more modest pedigree: an anonymous German waldzither.  These are normally 9-string and around 18" scale, but mine is 16" (41cm) and has an additional bass string (originally a free unfretted bass), making it a 10-string:



I reconfigured it to five double courses and tuned it to the same tuning as on Dawg's recording, CGDAE, using 0.008" d'Addario singles on the top E.  Tuning up to pitch is a bit nerve-wracking but it does work with that tension and keeps its pitch with strong tone.  It's very handy sometimes to have a combined mandola/mandolin.

Martin

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## siminoff

I concur with Dan on this; I'm confident there are - or were - recordings of Loar. The use of electronics was a very important focus for him and there is no question in my mind that he would have pursued recording. (Wire recording dates back to the late 1800s and was very much in use in the 1930s - so the technology was there for him to use.) He was scheduled (cataloged) to teach electronics and recording in 1944 at Northwestern University in addition to his regular Physics of Music class (but unfortunately his last class was in the summer of '43 before his death that September). He was feature editor of _The Collaborator_, a weekly student magazine of the American Television Laboratories. So… clearly his interest was there, and recording means were available to him, and it is very hard to believe that he didn't take full advantage of it. I just hope that when we do find it, it is salvageable. …R

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BradKlein, 

hank, 

William Smith

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## William Smith

My thinking exactly Dan, there has to be some somewhere!, maybe in some archives somewhere? Also back in them days as advertisement didn't little groups get air play in some of the towns they were going to perform in? Loar played with many "Gibson" type groups and by all of the instruments that he was photographed playing on. I'm sure he was no slouch so to say. I'm very curious to all this "what would a "Loar" sound like in Loars hands/ Maybe someday time will tell. It sems every year more and more Loar instruments surface from the unknown.

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## Jim Garber

I would especially love to hear what he played on his musical saw.  :Smile:

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## mrmando

> I would especially love to hear what he played on his musical saw.


"Working on a Building," perhaps.

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## Scott Tichenor

I emailed Neil Gladd who worked archiving music for the Library of Congress for a long time as his day job in addition to being editor for the now defunct Mandolin Quarterly. Here's part of his reply about the possibility of a recording by Loar:

----------------

I did... (worked archive music for LOC) until 1998! I vaguely remember reading in one of the mandolin magazines from the teens that Loar was seen coming out of a recording studio, but they must have never been released. MAYBE the masters exist in one of the record company vaults. I'll try to remember to look it up when I get home. I may know what year it was, at least...

Neil

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## Timbofood

This is so, so cool!
I wonder what tunes he may have "cut" too.
I will go stand in the corner now.

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## CES

This is awesome...appreciate everyone's input! Would love to hear recording's of Loar as well...wonder if there are any orchestra recordings out there he may be heard on, though, I guess, it'd be difficult to pick him out of the crowd in that setting...

Dawg, Roger, etc, thanks for posting. These are experiences and knowledge that we don't need to lose...

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## Bluetickhound

If there are extant recordings, lets hope they have been preserved in.a way that they can be remastered... I magine the buzz in the acoustic music world a Lloyd Loar CD would produce!!

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## CedarSlayer

Chicago in the 30's is an interesting time.  Depression, Gangsters, Dillinger, Jazz and Blues.  There was a large shift in the racial mix at the time, so the musical melting pot was at one of it's peaks.   If Loar was seen at a studio, it could have been as a technical expert or he could have been making a touch of extra money as a session musician.    If this the case, then there may be a lot of music recorded with Loar playing.   

Someone should analyze samples of his instruments for unique qualities, (As if that hasn't been done already  :Wink:  ) and then check Chicago area recordings for those musical signatures.    

Bob

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## delsbrother

Do you mean _Inglewood_? If so, that's a tough part of town. How did Loar's widow end up in Inglewood? 

The chances that Loar instruments could have possibly ended up on Storage Wars is... chilling.

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hank

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## siminoff

Delsbrother - yes, thanks, "Inglewood" - my bad. Yes, it's a pretty tough part of town today, but was rather mild back when Bertha moved there from Chicago with her second husband Ralph Westerberg. She lived a few blocks north of Manchester, and half block east of the Inglewood cemetery.  ..R

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## goaty76

I found this online.  It was labeled as from Mandolin Brothers from around '88/'89.  The only thing that consoles me about missing out on it is the fact that even if I did see it back then I couldn't have come close to affording it.  Plus I wasn't educated on the subject at the time and would not have understood the significance of the listing.

Phil

----------

BradKlein

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## Timbofood

I vaguely remember that listing, interesting how things come back to nudge you from your past!

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## Givson

The Loar collection sold by Mando Brothers also included Loar's personal musical saw.  Does anyone know if it was tap-tuned?

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## Timbofood

Kerf bound? Most likely "set" up by professionals.
I will go stand in the corner now.

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## Darryl Wolfe

> I found this online.  It was labeled as from Mandolin Brothers from around '88/'89.  The only thing that consoles me about missing out on it is the fact that even if I did see it back then I couldn't have come close to affording it.  Plus I wasn't educated on the subject at the time and would not have understood the significance of the listing.
> 
> Phil



I remember that.  I believe that is when the current owner acquired it.

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## Glassweb

> The Loar collection sold by Mando Brothers also included Loar's personal musical saw.  Does anyone know if it was tap-tuned?


I believe it was TIG tuned...

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## Timbofood

It may have been tig tuned but is it still playing a little sharp?
Back to the corner, I know.

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## goaty76

Just saw this pic on Picker's Supply's Facebook page.  It's not one I'm familiar with but it's pretty neat.  What a group of instruments with the 10 string mando/viola, a K-5, and a mandobass with a pickguard!

Phil

----------

Benjamin T, 

Bob Bass, 

BradKlein, 

carleshicks, 

Darryl Wolfe, 

Elliot Luber, 

hank, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Jim Garber, 

Jim Nollman, 

Mike Black, 

Paul Statman, 

Scott Tichenor, 

William Smith

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## Darryl Wolfe

Holy Cow Phil

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## Steve Roberts

> Just saw this pic on Picker's Supply's Facebook page.  It's not one I'm familiar with but it's pretty neat.  What a group of instruments with the 10 string mando/viola, a K-5, and a mandobass with a pickguard!
> 
> Phil



At the risk of stating the obvious, I believe that is the White House behind them.

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## Tom C

And that must be the Griffith A5 Loar?

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## Spruce

...and which K5???

 :Disbelief:

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## Joe Mendel

Not the Griffith A-5, that has 8 strings. This one has 10 strings, it's the mando/viola mentioned.

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Paul Statman

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## Timbofood

Ok, so is the saw in the case? Poor thing, relegated to its box for an important gig!
Do we know who this cast is by chance?
Too bad we don't see the saw, it must not have been right for the cutting edge set they had planned.

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## Bob Bass

Phil- Thanks for the great picture!

Spruce- The first signed K5 in the Archive is #75255, dated February 11, 1924. The headstock apparently showed signs that it had been modified from a guitar configuration. This instrument apparently had a large Virzi. There is a suggestion that this instrument may have been the prototype. David Grisman played it in Tone Poems 2.

Some of our resident experts may be able to further refine this information and/or pin-point the date & event.

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Spruce

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## f5loar

And the two chicks are picking on F5s!  I bet that was on hot line up for the Gibsonians band.

----------

Paul Statman, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

But who are they? Interesting that the gents have removed their hats for the photo.
We know that that's Mr. Loar, hat in hand, ten string under his arm but, who is with him?
That's some interesting trivia, and obviously we are all about details on this site! :Grin:

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## siminoff

This photo is an absolutely wonderful find - I've not see it before. This is a "Gibsonite" band and not the Sally Shipp group. The gentleman with the bass is James H Johnstone who was also head of Gibson's string division. I don't know the two ladies with the F5s or the man with the K5. The K5 is one of the earliest production truss-rodded K5s (evidenced by nickel truss rod cover) made just prior to or during Feb 1923. And yes, that's the same 10-string mandoviola that Loar is seen in the well published "workbench" (i.e., "Corner of Experimental Laboratory") photo. No way of knowing if the case had the saw in it, but that's the same case that would have also held Loar's electric viola. I agree that it is absolutely the White House. Had to be taken in 1923 or 1924. Now someone has to do some newspaper research and find out what they were doing there. So great!!!… R

Darryl and goaty76 - Mandolin Brothers ran that ad when I owned the mandoviola, saw, electric viola, and case. They were acting as a seller for me but believe it or not, we had no offers for the year or so that they had it up for sale (it was always in my possession during the time of sale). It was purchase by the current owner a few years later.

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Bob Bass, 

BradKlein, 

hank, 

Scott Tichenor, 

Timbofood

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## goaty76

Yeah I thought everyone would get a kick out of that pic.  When I first saw it I just stared at it for a while on the edge of my seat.  I know Bran from Picker's Supply from a few years ago when he sold me a beauty of a Mandobass.  I'll try and contact him and see if he has any info on where the photo is from.

Also just wanted to say as cool as everything in that picture is I can't stop looking at that pickguard on that mandobass.  Who would need/put it there?

Phil

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## billkilpatrick

is that the white house in the background?

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## mu1tom

Yep, that's the White House. I bet they have info...

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## Timbofood

This is the kind of thing that makes this site so much fun! 
Roger how kind of you to weigh in on this, you're perspective is always interesting.

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## Capt. E

I'm not sure the White House archives would have information on the "Gibson" visit. The WH was a much more open place then, from the line in the back it was likely a public open house. The photo may have come from the National Archives. My mother grew up in D.C. and has stories of going to the Easter Egg Roll, even one story of my grandmother almost running over the President while driving by the WH in 1925 as he was taking his morning stroll (she was not a good driver).

Thank you to everyone for a wonderful thread.

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## John Flynn

Of course back in that day, people could just walk in front of the White House and if they wanted to, pose for a picture. Now, the closest you can get is a block away and even then, if a group of people started unpacking instrument cases, I guarantee the picture would look more like this:

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## Lorenzo LaRue

> And that must be the Griffith A5 Loar?


That "A" mandolin/mandola has 10 strings.

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## BradKlein

I never knew Teddy Roosevelt played the mandobass! 




> Just saw this pic on Picker's Supply's Facebook page.  It's not one I'm familiar with but it's pretty neat.  What a group of instruments with the 10 string mando/viola, a K-5, and a mandobass with a pickguard!
> 
> Phil

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## mandolinstew

is that a bow holder on the mandobass?

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## Joe Spann

The photo showing the Gibsonians at the White House was taken on April 22, 1923. 

The people in the photo are (left to right) Margaret Lichti, Ethel Johnstone, Jimmy "Jazz" Johnstone, C.A. Templeman and of course, Master Loar.  The 1923 Annual Meeting of the Guild of Banjoists, Mandolinists and Guitarists was held in Washington, D.C. at the Hotel Raleigh. On the opening day of the convention all the delegates were received at the White House by President Harding.

Joe Spann

----------

Annette Siegel, 

Bernie Daniel, 

billkilpatrick, 

Bob Bass, 

BradKlein, 

brunello97, 

Ed Goist, 

hank, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Ivyguitar, 

Jim Nollman, 

Mike Romkey, 

Scott Tichenor, 

shelley.heard, 

Spruce, 

windhavn

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## Timbofood

No, I think it's an arm rest, I have seen other pictures with them in place.  I wonder if they were factory options? One of you old catalog hounds may be able to answer that one, please?

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## Timbofood

Thanks Joe, I just had a hunch someone would have that information!!!

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## Joe Spann

Here's another photo taken the same day. Master Loar is in the front row, fourth from the left.

----------

brunello97, 

hank, 

Scott Tichenor

----------


## siminoff

Joe - great data - thanks!!!… Roger

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## shelley.heard

I have never heard of an mando-bass being played arco.  I believe that is an arm rest.

----------


## mrmando

The arm rest was available on all Gibson mandobasses. Not sure if it was standard or an option. Most of the extant ones today have had the arm rest removed. What's unusual about THIS mandobass is that it also has a pickguard. Never seen that before.

----------

Bob Bass

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## Petrus

> Now, the closest you can get is a block away and even then, if a group of people started unpacking instrument cases, I guarantee the picture would look more like this:


That's only if you tried to pull out a banjo.  :Grin:

----------


## Tom Cook

> That's only if you tried to pull out a banjo.


PLEASE make the white house Loar photo into a Mandolin Café Tshirt! I will order 6 right now. Thanks

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## Tom Cook

Hi Can I pay for a copy of this photo? How bout tshirts? Thanks tom24cook@gmail.com

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## EdHanrahan

> I never knew Teddy Roosevelt played the mandobass!


Sure!  Didn't he say something like "*Speak softly and carry a big mandolin*"?

HEY!!  Now _there's_ a caption to go under this picture on the next Cafe T-shirt!!

----------


## trevor

Re the mandoviola, from Roger Siminoff  "It was purchase by the current owner a few years later." Is there any chance of seeing some photos? I would also love to know the scale length..

As to value, it must be priceless? Signed by Loar... owned by Loar and unique...

EDIT: I just went back to the begging of the thread and see that my questions have been answered.

----------


## Timbofood

I'm in on the t-shirt too!

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## Darryl Wolfe

I submit that the instrument on the left is a mandola...at least that was my first impression

April 22, 1923 was on a Sunday

and some more research says   

"One of the most famous early conventions was the 1923 convention held in Washington DC at the historical Mayflower hotel. It was at this convention, that the members were invited to the White House to perform. This concert established the Guild as an elite music organization throughout the United States."

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## Ken Waltham

For what it's worth, I thought it was a mandola too.
Ken

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## Timbofood

I kind of thought it was a mandola not "just" another F-5.
I still want the t-shirt

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