# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  The End of Guitar Center

## Steve Lavelle

Came across this article today predicting that GC is about to fail under crushing debt obligations after being taken over by a private equity group. 

http://www.ericgarland.co/2015/02/03/end-guitar-center/

I was never a fan of the stores, but Musiciansfriend.com has been a good source of  recording equipment and other equipment, and they are owned by GC.

GC wasn't the best place to find a mandolin, so I won't miss that aspect of the store.

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## mandroid

Maybe the MF Warehouse division will be separated   and the retail stores will be let Go .. we Shall See..

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## foldedpath

I don't know enough about the financial world to disagree with that blog author's conclusions, but it doesn't take a degree in economics to know that big box retail is on the skids. 

Also, this quote from the conclusion in the article is both hilarious and frightening:




> "These conclusions were my instincts before I conducted research into the example of Guitar Center. I was reasonably sure then, and I am entirely convinced now. The only remaining question is where the industry will go from here. Go ask the good people at Behringer for a preview. Representatives from their company have informed me that since they parted ways with Guitar Center they discovered a network of smaller, more focused retailers who were more than excited to form a stronger relationship with their company, and in turn delight customers even more. This resulted in the companys greatest annual revenue in history, both in the United States and throughout the world. Behringer seems to think that a world without a single, corporate, banker-driven industry hegemon is not only possible, its preferable."


If Behringer is the future, then we're all in deep doodoo. It's the Wal-Mart ethos applied to music gear: don't care if it lasts, don't care what it sounds like, as long as it's cheaper than anything else.

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## Steve Lavelle

I had the exact same reaction to that paragraph, FoldedPath!

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

I guess using Behringer as an example probably doesn't resonate with musicians as well as it does with bankers. But I think the conclusion itself is reason for hope, if it means we are going to see music equipment manufacturers, large and small, working more and more with smaller retailers across the country in larger numbers to deliver better services and products.

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## Londy

Forget retail stores folks.  It's not part of the equation in the not so distant future.

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## foldedpath

> I guess using Behringer as an example probably doesn't resonate with musicians as well as it does with bankers. But I think the conclusion itself is reason for hope, if it means we are going to see music equipment manufacturers, large and small, working more and more with smaller retailers across the country in larger numbers to deliver better services and products.


I'm wondering what "small retailers" means in that context? 

I've done almost all my pro audio business in the last few years here in the USA with just two outfits -- Sweetwater and B&H. Both carry Behringer gear (although there was a period when Sweetwater didn't), and neither exactly qualifies as a "small retailer." They're both large retail online suppliers like Guitar Center, but without the brick & mortar overhead costs.

If you need an 8-channel analog or digital mixer now, is there anywhere you're going to go now to buy one, except an online purchase from Sweetwater, B&H, or maybe Full Compass? 

I'm not knocking that, BTW, because I've had great service from Sweetwater and B&H, and they carry a range of very high-end gear as well as the low end. But they don't carry everything (and GC didn't either, to be fair). There are still the smaller specialty pro audio suppliers like Atlas if you want really high end stuff like Manley, Great River, Buzz Audio, Thermionic Culture, or other exotica that doesn't sell in high enough numbers to be listed at Sweetwater. But these mid-level specialty online suppliers are expanding. A few years ago, I had to educate my sales rep at Sweetwater about what a DPA 4099 mic was, and now they carry the full line, including accessories.

It just seems like a general consolidation of the big fish eating the little fish. And I hope that in a few years, I still have a choice of ordering gear from *either* Sweetwater or B&H, and not just a single mega-online-retailer. Which might be owned by Behringer.
 :Chicken:

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## Willie Poole

Most retail stores deal mainly in guitars and when they do have a mandolin it usually is the lower end of Asian made crap, the only thing I have ever bought at G.C. is an electronic tuner and that is because it was on sale at 50% off...I sure as heck won`t miss them....

    Willie

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## Caleb

I know it's cool to hate Guitar Center, but this makes me a little sad.  I bought my first guitar (cheap Fender Strat) there back in 1992, and got my first acoustic (Takamine G330, still have it today!) the next year.  I have many fond memories of being a young man wandering around in that place in a sort of awe.  On Sunday afternoons a friend and I would go to see all the guitars we couldn't afford.  Man, it was fun, and those were special times for me.  So one of these days when I drive by our local GC all boarded up, I'll look on with a sigh.

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Jordan S., 

TC-in-NC

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## TonyP

Must have been more than 5yrs ago they got bought out and we all thought they would get gutted by the "investors" and would go away. So I guess I'm not going to count them out just yet. It's interesting what Berhinger said about banks. IMHO it seems their success was more about making a mixer that even the stalwarts here said was excellent. Guess it's time to break out the popcorn.

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Jim

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## JeffD

I don't know enough to agree or disagree, or even claim I understand what he is getting at. To me this is all insider talk, between experts.

But I know it is this persons opinion and prediction. Informed judgments. What I mean is it is not a report of the news, or even a report of the consensus of experts on what the future will bring.

For that we will just have to see.

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## Charles E.

We are lucky to have a small, independent guitar shop with a great staff in down town. I never felt comfortable in the big box music stores. Hopefully the small shops will survive.

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John Soper, 

Markus, 

TC-in-NC

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## darrylicshon

Berhinger bought Midas awhile ago and since there gear has been getting better, Midas is a big name in the sound business, ww were all shocked when we heard

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## JeffD

I have no problem with Guitar Center. They are what they are. I don't go to the IHOP and complain they don't have spaghetti.

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Bernie Daniel, 

Dan Krhla, 

DHopkins, 

Jim, 

lloving, 

sgrexa, 

Steve VandeWater, 

stevedenver, 

TC-in-NC

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## foldedpath

> Berhinger bought Midas awhile ago and since there gear has been getting better, Midas is a big name in the sound business, ww were all shocked when we heard


That's how they entered the mid-range digital mixer market (buying Midas). I don't think it's been established yet, that this means their entire lineup -- including the entry-level stuff we mostly talk abut here in the Cafe -- is improving across the entire range. And it's going to take a while to get beyond those "No Behringer, no Mackie" riders for touring groups.

The entry level stuff is still business as usual. It has to be, at those prices. You'll never get Midas tech in a Behringer 802 that sells for $65.

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## Chip Stewart

I purchased many things from Guitar Center before they were bought out.  I purchased very little from them in the last 5 years, and  I didn't even know about the buyout until I read the article.  Before the buyout Guitar Center had really good holiday sales (Memorial Day, Labor Day, etc.).  One Labor Day sale, my local Guitar Center handed out $10 gift cards just for entering the store and had guitar stands on sale for $5.00.  I received two free guitar stands that day!   :Smile:   They often would have 25% off coupons during their holiday sales as well.  I purchased two Yamaha MSR100 speakers to use as monitors at 25% off, which was a great deal.  Since the buyout those types of deals have disappeared and I basically stopped going to Guitar Center.  I'll still stop in for picks or a cable if I get caught short, but that's about it.  They certainly look like they are in bad shape.  Grab some popcorn and see what happens.   :Popcorn:

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stevedenver

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## Pete Braccio

Two things: #1 The issue of Guitar Centers possible soon demise is not because they did not do a good job at selling gear. It is because corporate raiders from Bain swept in and pumped the company full of debt from other sources. 

#2 If you know what you're looking for, you can get great deals at Guitar Center. Don't expect a lot of support from the staff all the time, but I've been really surprised (in a good way) by some of the people that work there.

Pete

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DataNick, 

stevedenver, 

TC-in-NC

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## Jeff Mando

In defense of Behringer......for two years I played a weekly gig as a guitarist and singer with a band.  To add some variety and mood to the electric guitar, I had a pedal board with a minimum of 5 pedals, sometimes more, you know, when ya need and 60's fuzz AND a 70's fuzz and delay as well as reverb....overkill, but fun stuff....anyway Behringer makes $29.95 effects pedals sold on a blister pack--the weird thing is--they sound good.  If you buy them used on eBay, they are even cheaper!!!  They make a superfuzz that is a copy of a vintage 60's fuzz that sells for $600 on eBay and they make a vintage overdrive, which is a copy of the good old TS-8 square button tube screamer, another mega-expensive vintage pedal.  I have used these effects alongside the originals and it never fails that when people ask what effect I played on a certain song--it was always the song that I used the Behringer pedal on.....so yeah, it's a bunch of cheap import junk, but I play live music for cheap drunks with "uneducated" ears......so we all have a good time!

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darrylicshon, 

Ed Goist, 

Jim, 

MikeEdgerton, 

sgrexa, 

stevedenver

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## darrylicshon

> That's how they entered the mid-range digital mixer market (buying Midas). I don't think it's been established yet, that this means their entire lineup -- including the entry-level stuff we mostly talk abut here in the Cafe -- is improving across the entire range. And it's going to take a while to get beyond those "No Behringer, no Mackie" riders for touring groups.
> 
> The entry level stuff is still business as usual. It has to be, at those prices. You'll never get Midas tech in a Behringer 802 that sells for $65.


You wouldn't believe how many touring bands i see using a behringer x32, a lot of the smaller ones, touring around 1,500 seat venues

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## almeriastrings

Behringer is a kind of odd company. They have relentlessly paid 'tribute' top other peoples designs - or to be more direct, openly ripped off everyone from Mackie onwards, and have produced some truly lousy sounding, unreliable stuff - especially in their early years. In between all the junk, they managed to put out a few real gems, that actually performed very well - if you knew what to look for. The ADA8000, for example, was a very decent little 8 channel ADAT pre at a cornflakes packet price point that found itself being used in plenty of serious studios and broadcast applications. Their DAW control surfaces were also surprisingly good and useful.  Some of their power amplifiers and acoustic amps were similarly OK (though the former looked suspiciously like Yamaha's!). They do seem to have changed direction in the past few years though, and have tightened up CQ considerably and are actually putting out original, totally new designs. As already mentioned, the X-32 has proved amazingly popular. I had a go on an early example, and it is a very serious, well made, great sounding console. While "no Behringer" certainly had some justification with their early stuff, I can't agree it does with the X-32 and similar new products in their range. The only Behringer gear I own myself, incidentally, is a couple of the AD-121 acoustic guitar DI pedals. I use those for guest performers regularly, and I can get a good sound of them very easily with just about any pickup system... I think I paid about $30 each... sometimes easier to dial in a decent tone on those than it is on the Radial or Headway....

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## allenhopkins

I have been using a little 5-channel Behringer EuroRack mixer for over ten years; it's what I use to "expand" my Fender Passport 150 and Fishman SoloAmp SA220 systems when I have to mic more musicians.  Heck, I've even used its 9v battery power capability, and plugged it into a Fender AmpCan for a micro-mini PA!

_Very_ small sample from which to draw conclusions, of course, but over that decade I have had zero problems with the Behringer; it's been totally reliable, and has had enough features to make it really useful to me.  So I must abstain from the Behringer-bashing that seems to be the conventional wisdom in this forum.

And, by the way, I purchased the mixer at Guitar Center.

I could live easily without Guitar Center. though I do like to stop in, see what they're stocking acoustically, maybe buy some accessories (instrument stands, line transformers, etc.).  Musician's Friend's loss would affect me more; most of my sound equipment -- mics, mic stands, has come from there, and I've also bought a bunch of Lee Oskar harmonicas.  If Guitar Center drags down Musician's Friend when it goes under, will be a real loss.

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Jim

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## zedmando

> Forget retail stores folks.  It's not part of the equation in the not so distant future.


I hope not--I realize that things are changing--but in an area where it is important to try things out--I'd miss it--and probably not buy anymore instruments, & possibly amps--but if someone had a pedal I could try first--maybe.
Accessories--sure--I guess.
(I play guitar & bass as well)

I just hope I wouldn't have to return anything.

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Gandalfa

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## allenhopkins

By the way, sounds like Radio Shack's going out of business; where will I get my tuner batteries?

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TC-in-NC

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## almeriastrings

Radio Shack.... brings back memories, but I'm not surprised. They were in the UK too... and as in the US, used to have a pretty decent stock of components, resistors, transistors, PCB's, etc. They were also the first place I remember encountering a real computer! The original TRS-80. Sadly, from an interesting store with stuff you _needed_, they morphed into some kind of bare emporium with high pressure salespeople trying to push new (unwanted) cell phones and exorbitant "extended warranties" on you if you so much as peeked in the window.   Changed beyond recognition.  Fortunately, you can get your tuner batteries online  :Smile:

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## Austin Bob

I'm not sure about the facts cited in the article, but the tone indicates that the writer takes a bit of delight in the current situation.

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## Astro

People, like store chains, are fickle things.

I was glad to see GC come here.

Then I resented it. I got caught up in the anti big box fervor.

Now, if it goes, I will miss it. 

Its amazing how much nicer the Mom and Pops got after GC came in. More services, better prices, and even more varied inventory. Once GC goes I wonder if things will eventually return back to the more snobby, overpriced, less varied inventory mode.

As some one above wisely said, GC is what it is. It had its place. And as far as retail stores being a thing of the past, well musicians perhaps more than anyone, appreciate the bricks and mortar interface. I think stores will remain even as mail order grows. They both have their place.

The article linked was very good. Thoughtful, smart, and I enjoyed it. Thanks for posting. And I don't doubt it. 

But there is one thing about economists. They give us important insights about trends and economic rational.  But they don't try to predict how humans respond to these circumstances because--who can? 

We humans don't always act using economic rational. In fact, I'd say when we do its the exception.

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Marty Jacobson, 

Steve VandeWater

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## Bertram Henze

> But there is one thing about economists. They give us important insights about trends and economic rational.  But they don't try to predict how humans respond to the circumstances because--who can?


MAS and GAS will die out and they never saw it coming...  :Cool:

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## journeybear

I have never set foot in a Guitar Center. I have gone to Sam Ash - though that's because the local big music store in my old home town sold out to it or went the franchise route - however you want to say it.

I wouldn't mind having one here, or within reasonable driving distance. There is nothing online that compares to being able to go to a store and pick up an instrument or plug into an amp and hear how it plays. Even though my experiences doing this have meant dealing with sales people who were more interested in making a sale than helping you find what you want, there were still some employees who were actual musicians, for whom this was a pretty good day job that helped them keep their own musical careers going. Also, they had bulletin boards which would help you meet other musicians, learn about shows and jams and lessons, and advertise your own gigs. The access to random information like this was invaluable. I don't think there's anything online that compares to all of this.

As to Radio Shack - What goes on there these days is a far cry from the old days. Used to be the stores were populated with serious electronics geeks, who were into this stuff to an almost unnatural degree. This was great from a consumer standpoint - you could really pick their brains, and there was plenty there. They could solve problems for you if you could describe what you wanted to do. Nowadays, they are trained in sales but not electronics, and you have to know what you want when you walk in.

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## Rush Burkhardt

The health of Music is related to the numbers of people able to experience it as listeners or players. To a great degree, stores like GC entice the low hanging fruit and the entry level participants. If they are looked at as a part of the Music food-chain, they serve a purpose, and we Music-lovers [whether we frequent them or not], might think twice [and maybe even mourn] their demise! I'm just sayin'...
 :Popcorn:

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Steve VandeWater

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## MikeEdgerton

I like Guitar Center, I like Musicians Friend. I buy from sources all over the Internet and the brick and mortar folks too. It all depends on who has what I want when I want it at the price I want it at. I'm not into hating a company. I only got screwed one time on an instrument deal and it was a local mom and pop that got me. They got my money and I never got my instrument. Never happened with GC or MF or Elderly, Mandolin Brothers, The Mandolin Store, Janet Davis, and a whole lot of others. We have some great local small chains that I shop as well (Russo's comes to mind). I would be very sorry to see that company fail.

Radio Shack isn't the same company it was 40 years ago, 30 years ago, 20 years ago or even 10 years ago. I remember when the first one opened in the town I lived in. It was in the basement of the Tandy Leather Store. Tandy leather stores went by the wayside, Radio Shack flourished (in the 60's they sold electric guitars and amps) but you can only reinvent yourself so many times. I rarely go into one these days but then again, I rarely build amplifiers from scratch any more either because you can now buy manufactured stuff so cheap. The world changes.

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## Jeff Mando

> Radio Shack.... brings back memories, but I'm not surprised. They were in the UK too... and as in the US, used to have a pretty decent stock of components, resistors, transistors, PCB's, etc. They were also the first place I remember encountering a real computer! The original TRS-80. Sadly, from an interesting store with stuff you _needed_, they morphed into some kind of bare emporium with high pressure salespeople trying to push new (unwanted) cell phones and exorbitant "extended warranties" on you if you so much as peeked in the window.   Changed beyond recognition.  Fortunately, you can get your tuner batteries online


I agree, I hate going to Radio Shack to buy some solder or fuses and have to wait behind a long line of (expletive deleted) cell phone customers....really slows things down.

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...so yeah, it's a bunch of cheap import junk, but I play live music for cheap drunks with "uneducated" ears......so we all have a good time!


The quote of the month! I love it.

By the way, I use a Behringer powered mixer and have for years.

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Steve Lavelle

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## Jeff Mando

> Also, they had bulletin boards which would help you meet other musicians, learn about shows and jams and lessons, and advertise your own gigs. The access to random information like this was invaluable. I don't think there's anything online that compares to all of this.


Mandolin Cafe, perhaps?

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## jaycat

Some years ago I sold GC a Gibson EB3 bass for about twice what it was worth. I think the kid I struck the deal with was a new hire. Other than picking up strings once in a while, that has been my sole interaction with them.

I would miss Radio Shack. They always seem to have the right doodad that you can't find anywhere else.

Then again, I am still waiting for Tower Records to reopen . . .

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## Jeff Mando

> Some years ago I sold GC a Gibson EB3 bass for about twice what it was worth. I think the kid I struck the deal with was a new hire.


One of the "advantages" of impersonal corporate America!  For years GC had two guys going to the vintage guitar shows as buyers to get prime vintage stuff for their "Hollywood Collection" in Los Angeles.  I heard that somebody bought a rare guitar (for cheap) at a GC, then took it to the vintage guitar show and sold it unknowingly back to their buyers for a much higher price.  When the serial number was entered into their database, needless to say it was quite embarassing and somebody probably got their bottom spanked, I'm guessing.........well, hoping, actually!  :Laughing: 

I had a similar experience at a corporate pawn shop chain.  I took in a made in Mexico Fender Stratocaster (worth about $300 back then) to see about getting a loan.  The employee was obviously new, but very confident in his abilities.  I believe I asked him, "do you think I could borrow $200 on this guitar?"  His response was, "yes, I am authorized to loan up to $400 on Fender guitars."  I said, "so you can loan me $400?"  He said yes, so I got the money and they "bought" a guitar.....

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## Timbofood

I went in to GC here one time, not a bad experience, just more like a non experience. Staff didn't know much and, didn't seem to care about much, I wasn't buying anything electric so, they pretty much blew me off. 
I won't miss them, just kind of sad to see any "store" go.

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## stevedenver

schadenfreude? we all have it with GC, kmart and other bully/giants.

I recall my first visit perhaps in '95.  A friend told me I simply had to check out Taylors. I was dumbfounded at the display, PRS, Fender, Gibson, Ricky, etc, walls of the stuff, brightly lighted -overwhelming. I had just bought a rare strat from a buddy and with no intent, walked out with a '66 twin, for $600.  Next week , found a super rare LP , out the door for $1k, FMV at the time $6K-they didn't know what it was, cause it wasn't in the 'book'.  I have had other such buys, and only, imho, ould this happen where interest and detail and caring from staff are 'corporate', and the sales staff are treated like fast food workers.  I used this to my advantage.  I recall once a blow out on Tomastiks, guitar and mando-$2 a set. New guitar cases, without needing to buy a guitar, for $20, these being a custom shop Fender, Gibson Cali girl, and a 54 Geib for a D45-which, came with a hidden HD 28, really-and which I returned some days later when I discovered this, although they walked me out with the case, unawares. That was .....ethically trying for me. :Grin: 

I have to say, I like GC. As one who loves gear, and is abreast of the market, I have gotten stupid buys there, often on obscure highest end instruments.  What I like, and what others hate, I think, is they are strictly business.  If you can find and evaluate a great guitar, and negotiate a great deal, they are unequaled. Unlike sole proprietors, they have less emotional investment, it seems to me. 

I would hate to see them go out of business, even thought they often DONT have what I want, certain strings, etc. OTOH, I think we will likely see much higher prices, but still less than many smaller shops.

I recall well, decades back, having to buy local, and paying way too much, because there was no competition, no net, etc.

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## Steve VandeWater

> I have never set foot in a Guitar Center. I have gone to Sam Ash - though that's because the local big music store in my old home town sold out to it or went the franchise route - however you want to say it.
> 
> I wouldn't mind having one here, or within reasonable driving distance. There is nothing online that compares to being able to go to a store and pick up an instrument or plug into an amp and hear how it plays. Even though my experiences doing this have meant dealing with sales people who were more interested in making a sale than helping you find what you want, there were still some employees who were actual musicians, for whom this was a pretty good day job that helped them keep their own musical careers going. Also, they had bulletin boards which would help you meet other musicians, learn about shows and jams and lessons, and advertise your own gigs. The access to random information like this was invaluable. I don't think there's anything online that compares to all of this.
> 
> As to Radio Shack - What goes on there these days is a far cry from the old days. Used to be the stores were populated with serious electronics geeks, who were into this stuff to an almost unnatural degree. This was great from a consumer standpoint - you could really pick their brains, and there was plenty there. They could solve problems for you if you could describe what you wanted to do. Nowadays, they are trained in sales but not electronics, and you have to know what you want when you walk in.


Funny story...I went to Radio Shack to buy some BUSS fuses.  While we were looking for them, the kid helping me asked if I was a bus driver.  It took me a minute to figure out why he asked me such a weird question.

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## Jeff Mando

> New guitar cases, without needing to buy a guitar, for $20, these being a custom shop Fender, Gibson Cali girl, and a 54 Geib for a D45-which, came with a hidden HD 28, really-and which I returned some days later when I discovered this, although they walked me out with the case, unawares. That was .....ethically trying for me.


I think a $20 HD28 would be ethically trying for most of us, Steve!  It could be justified, of course, in many ways--if there was an old guitar strap, strings, a songbook or pick inside the case--we wouldn't feel the need to return those items--just part of the deal, right?  And being corporate, there is no Mom or Pop being out the cost of an HD28.......jeesh, I hate these dilemmas....I guess if it were me, I would have taken two or three years to make sure I was making the right decision before returning it, just to be sure.  :Crying:

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## JeffD

I bought the best mandolin I own, a mandolin so good I cannot conceive of owning one better, my Stiver two point. Got it used at a GC in the Mid West for a very decent price. How they happened to have it I don't know, its probably a sad story. But would be a hypocrite to own such a gem, and complain about GC.

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## Ed Goist

> In defense of Behringer......snip...


Another post in defense of Behringer...

For the past year my acoustic amp was a Behringer ACX450 I purchased used. I thought it sounded great on both channels, with guitar, mandolin, harmonica, and vocals. I never gigged with it, but played through it just about everyday, and was never dissatisfied with the sound, effects, or features. Last month I sold it *for exactly what I purchased it for* to help fund a new acoustic amp purchase (a Carvin AG200).

My overall experience with the ACX450 was very positive, and I would have no problem recommending it to someone looking for an acoustic amp in that price range. YMMV

Personally, I find it heartening that a large, international producer like Behringer speaks positively of having a large network of smaller retailers vs. just a few mega-retailers. IMO, this is something that is beneficial for both the end user, and for our regional and local economies.

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## Steve Lavelle

> The ADA8000, for example, was a very decent little 8 channel ADAT pre at a cornflakes packet price point that found itself being used in plenty of serious studios and broadcast applications.


Couldn't agree more. I have 3 of these and use them as preamps for an ADAT HD24 for live sessions. I also have10" Behringer powered speaker and one of their little 7" monitors with a built in mixer that are great for little gigs and have been very reliable.

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## stevedenver

> I think a $20 HD28 would be ethically trying for most of us, Steve!  It could be justified, of course, in many ways--if there was an old guitar strap, strings, a songbook or pick inside the case--we wouldn't feel the need to return those items--just part of the deal, right?  And being corporate, there is no Mom or Pop being out the cost of an HD28.......jeesh, I hate these dilemmas....I guess if it were me, I would have taken two or three years to make sure I was making the right decision before returning it, just to be sure.


jeff it was really really hard
the guitar manager had actually fetched it for me at my inquiry, priced it, I paid him and walked me to the front giving the bouncer gorilla the 'all clear' , the case wasn't opened for inspection....
on the way out the door to my car trunk, I thought, wow this thing is built!  This is one solid case.

the case sat unopened in my basement for over two weeks before I needed it for a gig, 
inside was a new HD28, complete with GC over size hang tags-my initial reaction was not unlike the Lion finally getting the medal from the Wizard in Oz.....simply stupid joy at my good luck......
and then, I thought about the manager, and if he would get screwed somehow due to the loss.....

I actually had this once before when I found a lovely Rolex at a lacrosse game on the sidelines, no one in sight........(went to lengths to find its owner and did)

All self righteousness aside, I have to do some sort of emotional bond thing with my instruments, sort of a happy place, sort of an extension of me, if you will, and, that would have been impossible to ever feel good about....

however had it been the actual D45, im certain I could suspend what little ethics I may have had.............

this was like going out of your way to give Sam Walton back the 20 he dropped while valet parking....very hard to feel good about.....

worst part, not even a thank you....simply, oh we wondered where that had gone.... no good deed, as they say.....

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## spufman

I like going into the GCs 'round here. They periodically have some interesting used gear. I scored an absolute gem of an old G&L bass at an incredible price, as well as other great deals through the years. Made some decent trades, too. But to paraphrase JeffD above, I am excluded from dissing GC if for no other reason than that amazing SB-2, one of the finest basses I've played at any price. Cool shops are few and far between in Connecticut. GC may be hit and miss, but still a good place to check out in my experience. Hope they stay.

And yeah, I've been going to Radio Shack since the days when using their tube tester was a perfectly normal event. Again, they're very different but still have the odd neccessaries when I need 'em.

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## Tom Coletti

> Most retail stores deal mainly in guitars and when they do have a mandolin it usually is the lower end of Asian made crap,


Most retail stores I've been to usually carry at least a couple of Kentucky KM-150's in playable condition. To call them "the lower end of Asian made crap" on this site is about as prudent as screaming "bomb" in airport security.

--Tom

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Austin Bob

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## darrylicshon

As i said earlier i have gotten great deals at gc and if it goes under i will miss it, i don't go there much anymore, since i haven't bought any guitars in years, last time i went i was trying out some mandos and taking to the salesperson before i left he thanked me and said i learned a lot about mandolins today, i didn't buy one, but he was a really nice person

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## Caleb

I see a lot of posts here and on other forums slamming places like GC and praising the "mom and pop" shops.  What some forget or don't realize is that all small shops aren't automatically good shops.  I've been jerked around by local shops who are now out of business (I wasn't sad to see them go). I've even been jerked around by a Cafe sponsor and will never call on them again. It happens, but only once to me.  

After GC goes there will still be the Internet to keep some local shops more honest than they might've been otherwise.  I just don't believe that a small or local shop has a right to my business simply because they are there.  They need to earn it like anyone else.

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Steve VandeWater

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## Folkmusician.com

> After GC goes there will still be the Internet to keep some local shops more honest than they might've been otherwise. I just don't believe that a small or local shop has a right to my business simply because they are there. They need to earn it like anyone else.


I fully agree with this!  My only real problem with Guitar Center, or big box stores in general, is that they drive prices down to unsustainable levels. Investors pump capitol in, the company goes public, dragging in more cash. They go on a huge spree of launching new stores, revenue skyrockets, stock climbs.  Now they start buying up competitors..  Round and round it goes, all the while building on momentum rather than a long term sustainable business model.  This begins to take its toll on the industry and eventually does serious damage.  

Small shops are even more likely to have bad business models. The difference is that they don't have 28% market share, so the damage is more limited.  

I realize this is the way things work and it has been going on throughout history.  The new issue is the rate at which it is all accelerating. Of course, instruments hit a little closer to home and musical instruments are not quite the same as books and consumer electronics.

When I go into our local GC, I see a big shop in an expensive shopping plaza. The shop has a huge investment in inventory and 5+ employees I see walking around.  What I don't see, is a line of people at the checkout counter.   I don't think this is just about the debt.

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## mrmando

Yes, I participated in a thread not long ago about a small guitar shop in Florida doing things that Guitar Center employees would never get away with ... 

I'm not a guitar player; Guitar Center generally doesn't deal in the instruments I do play, or if they have a few of those instruments, they don't know anything about them. So to me it doesn't feel like a big loss. We have lots of members, however, who are guitarists and may have a softer spot for Guitar Center than I do. 

It's a shame that music retail can't succeed on a large scale the way it once did. Not just guitars -- there was a piece in national media not long ago about piano stores disappearing because people just aren't buying pianos the way they used to. Perhaps a GC closure will benefit regional chains (provided they're still independent and not loaded with debt themselves) and mom & pops, perhaps not. I'm sure a lot of GC's inventory will be moved online via Musician's Friend. anyway, along with the schadenfreude there should be some sadness that people are being deprived of access to the means for making their own music.

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## foldedpath

NYT story today, Radio Shack files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. 

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2015/02/...T.nav=top-news

Looks like Sprint as the major shareholder will benefit, so whatever brick & mortar stores left will be Sprint cellphone sales centers, until the lease runs out.

It's time now to figure out what weird batteries your gear uses that can't be bought locally, and stock up with online suppliers. Such is life in the 21st Century.

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## John Hill

Mr. Garland isn't the first to predict the demise of GC and it's very obvious he has a local/mom&pop bias vs. box retailers so I take his opinion with a grain of salt.  That said if his financial figures are accurate and they have to meet debt payments and only have 10 mil in cash...they're toast. I will add that their financing deals don't seem all that smart from the beginning if the info is accurate.  You can't refinance indefinitely, productive debt vs. stupid debt and all that.

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## zedmando

Radio Shack--haven't seen one in Canada in ages...

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## mandotim1955

Re the Behringer drift on this thread. I sold all my Behringer stuff years ago, and replaced some of it with Mackie equivalents. I had more trouble with the Mackie stuff than I ever did with Behringer gear. I bought an X32, then an X32 Compact, plus two of the S16 stage boxes. Couldn't be happier with them. Several things have changed about Behringer. They bought Midas, Turbosound, Klark Technik and other high end audio companies, and acquired their expertise and designs (legitimately this time). They also built their own huge manufacturing complex in China. Prior to this, they outsourced everything to local producers in China, and quality control was a nightmare. They now have full control of inventory and the manufacturing process. They have also built a dozen or so service centres worldwide, which means that their stuff can be repaired economically. Add to that; they are really listening to their customers. Uli Behringer is all over the discussion forums, and things happen as a result of discussions. Two recent (free) software updates to the X32 were a direct result of Uli chatting to users. (RTA and multiband compressors on every channel, and the facility to switch all the return channel strips so you can see all the sends at once). It's a really good example of a company shifting the way they do business.
I don't work for or with Behringer; just really impressed with the direction they are taking.

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Ed Goist

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## barney 59

If you read the Bio and history on Behringer's website he pretty much infers that there were problems all along with quality control due to dealing with  outsourced contractors. States that it took him 20 years to figure out how to do business with the Chinese. They now have there own factory and build many of their components from scratch and are in pretty much complete control of their product. It's a pretty good story --how a guy fussing around with some electronics because he couldn't afford what was available on the market  ends up becoming a major player in a very competitive industry.

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## JeffD

> I just don't believe that a small or local shop has a right to my business simply because they are there.  They need to earn it like anyone else.


Bingo.

If a local store responds to the local musical needs and becomes part of the local musical community, (and especially if they manage to get some killer mandolins to try out), who cares if its owned by Mom and Pop or Campbell Soup. I will buy my strings there.

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Caleb, 

Tommcgtx

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## Jeff Mando

> Bingo.
> 
> If a local store responds to the local musical needs and becomes part of the local musical community, (and especially if they manage to get some killer mandolins to try out), who cares if its owned by Mom and Pop or Campbell Soup. I will buy my strings there.


I think it is difficult to calculate the effect the internet has had on Mom and Pop stores in local communities.  As if the "walmartization" of America wasn't enough, I think the internet was 100 times worse on these stores.  I should say, well, it goes without saying, that for buyers online shopping was a game changer for price as well as selection.  Be that as it may, if a retail store is located in a high traffic urban area, tourist area, or a university area--it MIGHT stand a chance.  Keep in mind you are competing with online retailers who PAY NO RENT.......I love a local store to buy my strings, also, but you have to sell a lot of strings and picks to pay your rent and salaries....I'm no expert, but I think the times have changed and business was a tough game even BEFORE the changes, IMHO.

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Steve VandeWater

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## Perry Babasin

For me personally I have very fond memories of Guitar Center on Sunset Blvd. in Hollywood. I bought my first "good" acoustic Guild D-50 and my first "good' electric, '60s Gibson Cherry SG with Bixby Tailpiece in the early '70s. I loved them both, don't have either of them now but good memories. I know they turned into a giant corporate entity, but in the early '70s in Hollywood they were OK in my book...

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## Folkmusician.com

> I love a local store to buy my strings, also, but you have to sell a lot of strings and picks to pay your rent and salaries


This is exactly the case... Strings at retail price are not so bad, but strings at street prices?  You would need to sell 200+ sets per day to keep an average "small shop" open, let alone profitable. To justify stocking instruments, you need to sell said instruments at a reasonable markup. Most small shops will make good money on lessons, some on repairs, and progressively less from sales.  Brick and mortar sales of instruments is no longer a sound business decision.  Yes, some shop are doing ok and a handful are thriving.  As a whole, we are seeing more shops close.

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## mvlh

I have read that they (Radio Shack) are going to continue with many (not all - maybe half) of their stores and discontinue the cellphone/smartphones & contracts stuff. And they still DO have a great many things you often find you "need". Wonder where we'll be going to find some of that, if/once they go under for good. Like adapters, certain cables, etc etc. Online? And pay twice the cost of the article just for shipping/handling?

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## oldwave

This is more a function of predatory business practices that has destroyed lots of companies.  Large capital concerns buy the company load it up with debt, go public or the opposite and take all the equity out of the company.

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## MikeEdgerton

Adapters and cables? www.monoprice.com.

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## Caleb

> This is exactly the case... Strings at retail price are not so bad, but strings at street prices?  You would need to sell 200+ sets per day to keep an average "small shop" open, let alone profitable. To justify stocking instruments, you need to sell said instruments at a reasonable markup. Most small shops will make good money on lessons, some on repairs, and progressively less from sales.  Brick and mortar sales of instruments is no longer a sound business decision.  Yes, some shop are doing ok and a handful are thriving.  As a whole, we are seeing more shops close.


I remember back in the 90s all local shops (no such thing as Internet sales) had 2-for-1 strings all the time, and one local shop in DFW (the late great Player's Music - great shop) had 3-for-1 most of the time.  I haven't seen 2-for-1 strings in about 15 yrs or so though.  I guess once upon a time strings were just a way to get people in the door?

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## barney 59

> Bingo.
> 
> If a local store responds to the local musical needs and becomes part of the local musical community, (and especially if they manage to get some killer mandolins to try out), who cares if its owned by Mom and Pop or Campbell Soup. I will buy my strings there.


You did say "local" but we maybe differ in defining that. Local to me is locally owned.
   I provide a service to people and they pay me. My way of thinking is if I spend my money locally someone will have some money and hire me. That way I get some of my money back! If the profits are going to some distant corporation then my money is leaving town! I lived in a town where all the money went away. Eventually a lot of the people went away and I left with them found the place where the money was going and came out o.k. in the end or at least so far!
 But...more than that I find that if there is a quantity of smaller boutique stores selling a type of product that there is more variety and usually better service. Private owners seem to each have there own little area that they focus on and are or become expert at. Locally in the area where I live there is the music store that has great quantities of sheet music and caters to younger students specifically by offering lessons and band instruments, starter instruments,rentals and trade ups. That's their meat and potatoes .  We have two world class vintage/and new instrument dealerships. Several different places to go for all your rock and roll needs. A shop that sells nothing but drums. Some neighborhood music shops that I still plan to visit some day. A high end shop that caters to classical musicians pretty much exclusively. Almost every store will have for sale all the little junk that a musician will repeatedly buy -stings,picks tuners etc. most offer repairs, and all of them will offer at least some products and brands that none of the other shops carry. That's in the county --I can drive into the city and find plenty of other small music shops and a Guitar Center as well. I find that big box stores tend to offer what they offer, maybe at better prices for the most common items that puts a strain on the smaller shops that can offer real service in their specific area of expertise but maybe can't compete at chain store prices. I happen to now live in an area that can sustain small shops along with big box stores but that isn't always the case and a big box store can in some areas wipe out the smaller stores and it seems that in some places they do that intentionally, I've seen where a larger store manages to eliminate the smaller competitors in an area and then begins to cut back on their service/staff and products offered with a net result that consumers lose out. 
   This happened the other day to me. Home Depot--not music related but I think relevant to my point. I'm in their store and remember I need some 5 1/2" bolts for a project I'm doing. Bolts come in 1/2" increments but it seems that Home Depot has decided to only carry bolts on the inch--so do I leave Home Depot and go to a another store that I know will carry every size but at a somewhat higher price, spend another bunch of time is money doing that or do I decide that I can get the job done though somewhat imperfectly with a 6" bolt that is in my hand right now? The big box store pretends to be full service but in fact is not but they will provide all the more common items that people want or are willing to compromise for! The smaller stores tend to be very much full service and knowledgeable in their specific areas, carry specialty items  but they lose a great deal of business to the so-called "convenience" and price of the big chains.If they can't get the sales on the common items they may not be able to stay in business with only the specialty items they carry. AS consumers,again we lose!

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## lloving

From the point of view of an ex-instrument retailer I offer this observation:

Unless your shop offers something more than just instruments and accessories hanging on pegboard you ain't gonna make it. just read the posts on this site. There are special shops scattered all over the country from Missoula to Manhattan. Visit any one of those shops, they ain't GC and they will be right there after GC is gone. 

Just my .02 worth.

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## TonyP

All really good points. Bottom line for me is it has forced me to be a more informed consumer. To my mind we have gotten used to the idea we should be able to get everything we want in one place, but by all the well made points it's clear there is just too much available out there to stock it all in one place. And the specialist stores fill that gap.

To be a good businessman you have to be really into what you sell, not just some schmuck who wants to make a killing. I see this reflected in all kinds of local biz. And really in the big box stores. They have no clue, and if one big box doesn't have it, none of them do. It's like either they all have the same stocking program or the same suppliers or the same people on their boards, dunno. But it seems they want to force me to buy not only their inferior product, but their inferior way of doing biz. But not so with the advent of the Internet. It is a two edged sword for sure. But it's proved in my mind that the stores that really know what they are doing and stock what's relevant to their local clientele are still around. And to a man i see the owner in there everyday talking to his customers and helping them find what they need. Not some drone filling space saying "uh, I don't know" or " we could order that for you".

The Internet and pressure from the consumer to get the best deal because they are being squeezed and don't have the extra cash they once did could be a seed change for the good IMHO. My personal experience with companies is they get to a certain size and they lose their drive and efficiency if they are too focused on profits and not on their customers. So my hope is the idea you can spend all your time on the golf course with others looking to maximize your leverage making others run your biz will go away in favor of smaller more agile co's paying attention to making a better mousetrap.

There is a reason they call it the business cycle. Just like history it repeats itself and with the way public opinion has shifted I think we are in for some interesting changes. I just happened to be in one of the locally owned RadioShacks and was talking to the owner(!) and asked him about what was going on. He was very hopeful because it was Chapter 11, not 7. And the debt was with a long time partner. So it will be interesting to see where it goes. But we have like 5 RadioShacks in a 20mi radius and they are all different with each one reflecting it's local clientele. The one I was in was the closest to the university CalPoly and had a huge section of the store that was devoted to the Maker movement. The Arduino and the kits and stuff that go along with that. Robot kits, parts, books and magazines. The owner was lucky enough to have one of the instructors come in and tell him to start stocking stuff for this. And he did, and he and another store back east that's close to a university go back and forth with who's #1 in sales because of that. That would not have happened if the owner was not there. So I'm pretty sure even if RS goes away he's still got the connections and clientele to carry on if they fold. The franchises that survive will be the ones who help you, not force stuff on you that is not relevant to your area.

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## Jeff Mando

> From the point of view of an ex-instrument retailer I offer this observation:
> 
> Unless your shop offers something more than just instruments and accessories hanging on pegboard you ain't gonna make it. just read the posts on this site. There are special shops scattered all over the country from Missoula to Manhattan. Visit any one of those shops, they ain't GC and they will be right there after GC is gone. 
> 
> Just my .02 worth.



I wanted to add that in order to compete, you have to be very well funded, not just a specialty shop.  It amazes me when I travel and see "music" stores with 30 Johnson and First Act guitars and some cheapo amps and strings and picks and songbooks and THEY CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE IN BUSINESS????  I just shake my head.  Often their entire inventory isn't worth $5000, not to mention the fact the merchandise is so generic.  It's OK, not to deal in the high end, but I'm not sure I understand their thinking.  When I see stores like that I wonder how they stay open.  I figure it is just a hobby for someone who receives a monthy check and doesn't depend on it for (actual grown-up adult) income.

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## allenhopkins

So the chains and "big boxes" squeezed the locally-owned dealers, and now the internet is squeezing the chains and big boxes.  I'm shocked, shocked.

But there will always be room -- in the musical-instrument biz, anyway -- for local stores that offer more than just "lowest price."  We need repairs, adjustments, lessons, customizing, the ability to take trade-ins and sell on consignment.  Heck, we need places to hang out, and BS about instruments, and meet other people who play mandolin.  When I recently bought a century-plus-old Waldo bowl-back mandocello, from a fellow Cafe´member, I trotted off to show it to John Bernunzio and Dave Stutzman, two local dealers who handle vintage instruments of many types, and who really understand them.  No money in it for either of them, but they each were glad just to see the rare old instrument, and to talk about its origins and characteristics.

I've had similar interactions with Harry Tuft at Denver Folklore Center, Stu Cohen at the Music Emporium in Lexington MA, Buzzy Levine at Lark Street Music (when it was in Albany NY), David Colborn at Vintage Fret Shop in Ashland NH, and elsewhere.  Reading posts here, I find stories of dealers throughout the country who show their love of musical instruments, by doing more than just selling them.  These are places where musicians feel at home.

I've preached a few times about buying instruments and accessories locally, to keep these dealers in business, because there -- really -- are considerations other than price.  Not that price isn't important, and it can be a bit of a "hard sell" convincing people to pay $3 more for a set of strings, that's identical to the one available on-line from a discount dealer.

I shop at my local Guitar Center when I'm looking for particular things that they may carry, and others don't.  But it's not necessarily a place where one builds up personal friendships, where one would just drop in to chat about a new line of gear that one's probably not going to buy, or to pick the brains of the proprietor about manufacturers' policies and practices.

So if the "big boxes" undergo market stresses, could that open up a little more daylight for smaller, "boutique-y" stores?  Or are we going to be buying everything via the internet in a decade or so?  Stay tuned, perhaps...

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## Jeff Mando

> So if the "big boxes" undergo market stresses, could that open up a little more daylight for smaller, "boutique-y" stores?  Or are we going to be buying everything via the internet in a decade or so?  Stay tuned, perhaps...


Good points, Allen.  I think the age of buying everything on the internet is already here, for a lot of us.  My sister is a typical busy professional with a husband and two kids.  With the exception of groceries and gasoline, she buys 99.9 percent of everything she needs online.  I, myself, am guilty of buying things like razor blades online line, simply because they are cheaper (even with postage) and I don't have to go to the mall and deal with the great unwashed....(sorry, that sounded a little judgemental, didn't it?) and I get them delivered in a couple days.  I do believe in supporting local Mom and Pop boutique businesses, just like I believe it supporting flea markets, thrift stores, yard sales, pawn shops, etc.---if they have a good deal on an instrument that I am interested in--they get my business.

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allenhopkins

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## foldedpath

> So the chains and "big boxes" squeezed the locally-owned dealers, and now the internet is squeezing the chains and big boxes.  I'm shocked, shocked.
> 
> But there will always be room -- in the musical-instrument biz, anyway -- for local stores that offer more than just "lowest price."  We need repairs, adjustments, lessons, customizing, the ability to take trade-ins and sell on consignment.  Heck, we need places to hang out, and BS about instruments, and meet other people who play mandolin.


Five or six years ago, the owner of the local Mom & Pop music store decided put the business up for sale. I had done some repair biz with him, and he asked if I was interested. I tossed the idea around for about 5 seconds, but the deal-killer was that he wanted to retain the repair business for himself, in the upstairs shop. Repairs and setup work are one of the core income sources for a small store like that, although the current owners seem to be doing okay with retail sales and lessons. It helps that this is a very musician-heavy tourist town, and there are summer music festivals where they set up shop for selling strings, tuners and accessories. They carry some of the better instrument lines like Martin and National, and I don't think their inventory could be maintained at that level in just any town. 

I try to continue supporting them by buying things there every once in a while, but it's difficult at this stage of my musical life. I'm not looking to buy new instruments, and I'm full up on tuners, capos, and other gadgets. I buy strings online in large batches; not just to save money, but to have a consistent supply of oddball strings so I can stay on a regular changing schedule. About the only thing I can to to support that shop is recommend it to people traveling through the area. Which I do, frequently.




> So if the "big boxes" undergo market stresses, could that open up a little more daylight for smaller, "boutique-y" stores?  Or are we going to be buying everything via the internet in a decade or so?  Stay tuned, perhaps...


The next development is that you'll be buying a template online for your personal 3D printer, so you can make all your picks, strings, and other gadgets at home. Including instruments eventually. I've already seen 3D printed flutes, complete with springs and keys. The real money will be in the outfits selling the refill cartridges, just like regular inkjet printers today. 

That's both worrying (for the fate of retail sales outlets) and exciting, because it opens up the potential to create variations of existing designs, and even original designs yourself. The available materials are a limitation right now, but that will change as demand scales up. 

When it gets to mass-market 3D printed food, there's going to be a 3D printer in every kitchen. Just swap out the pasta cartridge for the cultured spruce and maple wood fiber cartridge, and print yourself a new mandolin.
 :Grin:

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allenhopkins

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## Mandobar

He's been preaching this sermon for several years.  You'd have to take a close look at their quarterly report from 2014 to really be able to make your own assessment.  I am a little wary of his assessment as it sounds like he's got a personal issue with the company, and more than likely with Bain.  I tried to look at his educational background and work experience, but could not find any professional or academic credentials aside from what his website states (which reflects nothing specific).  Reminds me of a lot of consultants we had around in the 90's.

While many "love to hate" GC and its other entities, if GC does go under it will leave a lot of vendors with unpaid invoices, which could lead to their demise also.  We could see virtually tens of thousands of individuals unemployed, which is never a good thing.  Think about what the short term (three to five years) economic impact would be in all of our communities.  It would take at least that long for smaller shops to pop up, if ever.  It takes a fair amount of capital to open a music store and some decent industry and business experience to sustain a going concern.

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## Mark Wilson

> I wanted to add that in order to compete, you have to be very well funded, not just a specialty shop.  It amazes me when I travel and see "music" stores with 30 Johnson and First Act guitars and some cheapo amps and strings and picks and songbooks and THEY CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE IN BUSINESS????  I just shake my head.  Often their entire inventory isn't worth $5000, not to mention the fact the merchandise is so generic.  It's OK, not to deal in the high end, but I'm not sure I understand their thinking.  When I see stores like that I wonder how they stay open.  I figure it is just a hobby for someone who receives a monthy check and doesn't depend on it for (actual grown-up adult) income.


I totally agree.  The one we have is exactly this. Whats the point?  

GC is a bad model imo.  Too much inventory and overhead for all the tire kickers and returns they have to deal with.

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## Folkmusician.com

> I travel and see "music" stores with 30 Johnson and First Act guitars and some cheapo amps and strings and picks and songbooks and THEY CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE IN BUSINESS????


In most demographics, this business model has at least as good, if not better chance of success than a mid-highend music store.
Why is Walmart the single largest retailer in the USA?  Cheap sells.  On Amazon, the top 8 mandolins are under $200.  2 out of the top 18 are over $200.

An average music store will have profit sources something like this (in order of importance):

Lessons 
Repairs
Accessories, books
Low cost instruments
Mid range instruments
High-end (least profitable to stock)

Almost without exception, it is the consumer that determines what a store stocks. If customers were constantly asking for $3000+ mandolins, there would be a shop that would try to carry them. Of course people's interest in the product is not enough. Customers need to purchase at prices that might be higher than those online + pay sales tax. The instruments have to turn in a reasonable amount of time. The shop may need to finance the inventory. They have to let customers try the instruments (and scratch or worse), provide good service, etc...  After a year or two, a dealer may look at the numbers and see that $100 mandolins are actually more profitable than $5000 mandolins. Then the question has to be asked? Do I want to have a cool shop with prized instruments, or do I want to pay the bills and maybe take a paycheck now and then? The former may not be an option at all if you can't cover the basic bills.  Some regions will support the cool "ideal" shop.  Very few though.

I don't see the demise of all music stores, just a decline.

My business is somewhat immune to all of this. If anything I am part of the problem, taking business away from local shops. I often think about relocating to an area that would support my dream music store, but I realize this is something I "want" to do vs. something I "should" do.

----------

rfloyd, 

Steve VandeWater

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## barney 59

----Why is Walmart the single largest retailer in the USA?  Cheap sells.  On Amazon, the top 8 mandolins are under $200.  2 out of the top 18 are over $200.---

  I once read how Henry Ford shocked the business world by voluntarily raising his workers wages....his figuring was if he paid them enough they could buy his car. Poor working people need to make their money go as far as possible and Walmart does in many cases have the lowest prices. It should be noted that Walmart has done more than it's fair share in helping to create those working poor. Same principle as Ford but in reverse!  I know of one rural town that services a huge area of much smaller towns and farm communities. All your shopping needs are available in that town. People travel two or more hours to go there to do their shopping, so this small town has a lot of shoppers. Walmart established a store there that did put the bite on the other businesses in that town but they were not content with that so just outside of town they established a Walmart "Super Store" in a building larger than anything Boeing ever had and eventually establishing a 3rd Walmart in the same community. Local businesses began to fail left and right,long time employees lost jobs and even if they could move over to Walmart it was for much less pay and almost completely without benefits ,making it almost certain that they would shop at the cheapest places they could find ---which were of course all Walmart!
From a Wall Street point of view Walmart's business model may be viewed as inspired genius but it doesn't look so great from Main Street. Big business and big box stores can and sometimes do stack the deck in their favor to the detriment of the communities they service. 
People will always want the best deal and buy for the least amount of money they can find even to the extent of possibly working against their own best interest. Buying your groceries at a store such as Walmart because YOUR dollar goes farther when you may have friends and relatives working at the struggling grocery up the road. I'm somewhat like that --I recently discovered The Dollar Store--and was amazed to find that everything there was a dollar!  I love internet sales -not even so much for the actual reduced price but because a lot of the time I can get away without paying tax--I love that!
  I agree that probably the biggest selling instruments are the real cheapies. People buying for their children who profess to want to learn an instrument or other people that just want to try it out. There is a large enough network of vendors that will sell you bad instruments--often in unplayable condition and sometimes unplayable set up as well as they can be. A very badly made instrument is probably the greatest insurance that you will never learn to play it at all! Walmart might sell you that instrument---I found Martin look alike 00 guitars once at a Ross Store for $20 a piece--3 of them---couldn't help myself and they've been real handy for things like nailing one to my garage door and I'm saving one for one of those really frustrating days when I really want to wrap my instrument around a tree! That $20 guitar may save me thousands and contribute to my mental health!  What astounds me most about instruments like that is that someone goes to the trouble to make them at all! There are some pretty decent instruments in the $200 range I'll admit -I've never picked up a Kentucky for example that was unplayable at any price point. A good vendor that is supplying "starter" instruments will find the good ones, set them up properly and know that at least some of those people will come back as repeat customers. A big box employee doesn't necessarily think like that and often doesn't care anything about the product or the customer and most are probably thinking or hoping that by the time that person is ready to upgrade that they have moved on to a better job and they could care less that the place where they work has a 28% market share!

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## Mark Wilson

> In most demographics, this business model has at least as good, if not better chance of success than a mid-highend music store.
> Why is Walmart the single largest retailer in the USA?  Cheap sells.  On Amazon, the top 8 mandolins are under $200.  2 out of the top 18 are over $200.


But... you have eliminated any reason for someone who has moved on from $200 mandolins to want to come into your store.  It's not an interesting place to be imo.  Stock a few quality used instruments and I'm in every week to see what's new.

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## Bertram Henze

> Stock a few quality used instruments and I'm in every week to see what's new.


And would you be the only one, maybe bringing a friend every other week? And would you also buy what's new? How long would it take for the fame to spread so that advanced musicians come from hundreds of miles away every week? What if that status is never achieved?

----------


## Jeff Mando

Besides being boring, the math just doesn't add up to have a store stocked with JUST cheapo instruments.  I live in a fairly cheap part of the country, but it would still cost me $1000 rent each month and another $1000 in utilities/overhead to open a shop.  (That's why I haven't done it--I can't pay $2000 a month for a place my friends can hang out at....)  That's $2000 in expenses every month BEFORE you make your first dime!  Let's say you have $5000 in inventory and you have a fantastic month and sell everything in the store---impossible--but this is just hypothetical--you take in the $5000, subtract rent/utilities, that leaves $3000, the merchandise cost you $2500, so you only made $500--but your store is empty and you need to reorder stock, which will cost you another $2500, so unless you are independently wealthy, you are out of business!  That is not to mention you haven't paid yourself or employees.....who pays your home mortgage? car payment?  health insurance? retirement?  Unless you do a lot of lessons and repairs to make up the difference, I just don't see it.  Now, if you live in an area where people walk in with used Gibsons and Martins that they want to sell cheap, you might make a buck that way.  I don't live in such an area.  Most successful brick and mortar stores I know of, have owners that work 24/7.  In addition to being well-funded and well-stocked, they also do eBay, Craigslist, whatever to make a buck.  Business is tough, especially in a bad economy.  Keep in mind to most people instruments are hobby/luxury items, not necessities.  My point is that some people have no business being IN business.

Back to the original subject, I guess that's why GC has appeal to so many, huge store & huge selection. (but maybe not so much, mandolin-wise.....) The old smoke and mirrors, bait and switch tactics, you know, the stuff that made America GREAT!!!!!  :Grin:

----------

TC-in-NC

----------


## lenf12

I think that a music store should use a vertically integrated cartel model and not only sell "supplies" to the few local musicians but also provide a selection of desirable instruments, and provide a venue to touring musicians who come to play concerts sponsored by the store. It's a sort of "soup to nuts" approach that caters to both the makers of music and the consumers/appreciators of music who might far outnumber the makers. 

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

----------

TC-in-NC

----------


## Folkmusician.com

> But... you have eliminated any reason for someone who has moved on from $200 mandolins to want to come into your store. It's not an interesting place to be imo. Stock a few quality used instruments and I'm in every week to see what's new.


I 100% agree with you!  That is the last place I would want to go. 

Should GC start closing stores, what will we see spring up as replacements?  While GC does stock some nice guitars, it appears the main sales come from the low-end. If GC is gone, the opportunity to fill the gap will predominantly be at the low price points.

There is a thread going on right now regarding shops in San Diego, CA.  It's sad that a metro area with 3 million people is watching their well established premier shops close. 

The last two cities I have lived in, both lost their long running family owned shops in the past couple of years. As far as I can tell, it was a market change more than the shops doing something wrong. Both well established in the community, lessons, repairs, rentals, put on concerts, etc.. Here in Reno, a GC did move in and I am sure that hurt. In Redding, there were no big box guys, so that was strictly a market change.

Allen says his area is doing well, so some areas will still support quality shops.

Great post Barney!  You nailed the problem.  We have a perfect storm combination of business tactics and consumer mindset.  I see more and more "buy local" campaigns going around, but I haven't seen much in the way of results yet.  It is really difficult to compete with someone like Amazon and it is hard to fault them. They have excellent service and really are a great company. Still, the damage is being done.  

Their holiday return policy: Anything purchased after Nov. 1st, can be returned by Jan. 1st for a full refund!  We can but a $5000 instrument from Amazon, take it on a 3 month tour, destroy it, check the defective box on the return form and they will pay for the return shipping and give a full refund.  All this after shipping it to you via air, for free! This is crazy and something no small dealer will ever be able to do.  I have no doubt that amazon contributed to GC's decline, and at their current rate of expansion, they are making it very difficult for new competitors to enter the market.  GC having a 28% market share is scary, yet this is nothing compared to Amazon having close to that marketshare in ALL US e-tail.  And doing this without the retail side being profitable (much like GC).  How can a company that needs to be profitable stand up to Amazon?  We are seeing, that most can't.

It is the very rare occasion I shop at Walmart. I would feel good about myself if it were not for my love of Amazon. I am drinking the Kool-Aid.

----------

allenhopkins, 

SincereCorgi, 

TC-in-NC

----------


## JSanta

I think that the new paradigm is that smaller, locally owned stores need to operate in the digital space as well.  A store like Bernuzio's in Rochester, NY for instance not only operates quite well locally, but their web presence makes them popular with musicians all over the country.  This way they are able to stock instruments at many price points and still turn a profit.

As I've gotten older, I still like visiting GC because they do have a wide selection, and it does remind me of being a 17 year old kid with no money but the dream to one day take something nice off the wall home.  A few of the local stores even have very knowledgeable people working there.  But there is something to be said about being treated like a person when visiting many locally owned stores, and that environment is difficult to replicate at the larger chains.

----------

allenhopkins, 

TC-in-NC

----------


## JeffD

Talking with a friend who told me that the internet is a godsend. He lives in a sparsely populated area of great beauty. Not much development. The downside is not many stores, so he is used to getting many things on line. I was talking about how on line stores can compete with physical stores and he surprised me by saying: "I hope so. The internet is helping to keep local development down which helps preserve the natural beauty of this place."

Just an interesting point of view.

----------

Bertram Henze, 

Rob Zamites

----------


## mandroid

Music in the Public school Curriculum, Went down the tubes , a while ago , in a cost cutting effort.

----------


## TC-in-NC

Several Radio Shack locations here are already having "store closing" sales.  Stock up now  :Wink:

----------


## Folkmusician.com

> Besides being boring, the math just doesn't add up to have a store stocked with JUST cheapo instruments.


Well,  I am not saying it is a good business model, I am just saying it has about as much chance of success as stocking a brick and mortar shop with expensive instruments and relying on that as the sole source of income.  You have a very slim chance for success.




> I live in a fairly cheap part of the country, but it would still cost me $1000 rent each month and another $1000 in utilities/overhead to open a shop. (That's why I haven't done it--I can't pay $2000 a month for a place my friends can hang out at....)


This sounds right. It is about what I have paid. And it hasn't been locations that cater well to foot traffic (which I prefer to limit, as it actually hurts our internet/repair business). We might be looking at double or triple in an average city for a better location.




> Let's say you have $5000 in inventory and you have a fantastic month and sell everything in the store---impossible--but this is just hypothetical--you take in the $5000, subtract rent/utilities, that leaves $3000, the merchandise cost you $2500, so you only made $500--but your store is empty and you need to reorder stock, which will cost you another $2500, so unless you are independently wealthy, you are out of business!


$5000 was just the example. $5000 is not remotely enough inventory even with cheap instruments and it would make sense to get at least a few mid-range instruments.  $25000 might be realistic as a base starting point.  It would be a severely limited inventory though.  If we took that same $25k and put it into high-end instruments, two really nice mandolins could eat up half of that. Lets say we use it to stock 10 premium mandolins. How many of these can we sell in a month?  If I had to take a wild guess, I would be lucky to sell these 10 mandolins in a year from a brick and mortar. In the meantime, these mandolins are accumulating shop wear and the value is going down. Maybe the customers that come in to see our mandolins will at least buy a pack of strings on the way out. But wait, we have the investment tied up in instruments and didn't stock strings.   :Smile:    In the end, I don't see either of these models as viable, but I would still give better odds to the shop that put the money into the lower priced inventory. Of course, if we were concentrating on the highend market, we would be stocking strings and accessories. We would also be looking at more of a $250k investment as a base starting point.

As we know, for a brick and mortar shop to have a chance, they need multiple income streams. If even one of those streams can cover the base expenses, the shop is doing well. Of course even covering the expenses with all streams combines can prove challenging. 




> Most successful brick and mortar stores I know of, have owners that work 24/7.


I fully agree! 

-------
Why is it that quality local shops have had a much harder time when a Guitar Center moves in? A shop that stocks a good selection of high-end mandolins, banjos, boutique guitars, nice used/vintage instruments, etc., has an entirely different offering than GC.  They should be unaffected, right? Yet GC starts cutting away at the other shops sales with their $159 guitar package, $189.95 mandolins, or worse yet, the $49.95 mandolin that we hear so much about!  It seems obvious that these lower end instruments do in fact make up a good portion of the market.  Guitar Center knows what sells. They have a HUGE database of information to tap. Not only from GC sales, but all of their internet companies. They know where the instruments get shipped.  Imagine having sales statistics for 28% of the market, down to the addresses of the customers.   :Smile: 

If the local market merits a selection of $5000 mandolins, GC will stock that store with them. They have the means to do so. From my observations, if a certain market shows demand for a particular type of instrument, it only takes weeks for GC to react and begin increasing the offerings. Despite Guitar Center's faults, I would not be quick to assume that they don't know the best inventory to stock.

----------


## Mark Wilson

> ...We can buy a $5000 instrument from Amazon...


Who knew but yes you can:

http://www.amazon.com/Gibson-Fern-Ma...3426526&sr=1-1

----------


## Jeff Mando

> I think that the new paradigm is that smaller, locally owned stores need to operate in the digital space as well.  A store like Bernuzio's in Rochester, NY for instance not only operates quite well locally, but their web presence makes them popular with musicians all over the country.  This way they are able to stock instruments at many price points and still turn a profit.


To elaborate on the vintage guitar market, prior to the internet--most shops in the late 70's/early 80's although local operated nationally with monthly mailing lists sent to collectors who requested them and many sales were done by mail order.  Some time in the 80's Vintage Guitar magazine was established and became the place for vintage dealers to advertise their inventory.  Also, some time in the mid-80's vintage guitar shows began, the larger shows attracting European and Japanese buyers to buy and export for their markets.  It is important to note that prior to the guitar shows only two or three vintage dealers did international business on a large scale.  This was due to the paperwork involved, exchange of money, and most importantly (on the part of the Japanese) a trust had to be established first with a dealer, usually with a face to face meeting.  In our current age of eBay, we take all this for granted, I can sell a guitar to a person in Japan just as easily as I can sell to a person in Ohio--this was not always the case in the not so distant past.  It should also be noted that many, many established brick and mortar stores closed in 1999-2001 due to the impact of eBay.  Basically, the internet customers outweighed the walk-in customers 10 to 1, and many dealers questioned the need for a storefront and overhead, opting for guitar shows and eBay.  Also, the number of guitars being traded-in dwindled, due to owners selling themselves on eBay.  The stores that decided to hang in there either had good foot traffic or established an internet presence, or both.  Change with the times, ya know.....

----------

Folkmusician.com, 

JSanta

----------


## JSanta

Jeff,

Thanks for the insight!  That was a little before my time, but you make several excellent points.  I still believe there is room for B&M stores, and an importance to maintain them.

----------

zedmando

----------


## zedmando

> Jeff,
> 
> Thanks for the insight!  That was a little before my time, but you make several excellent points.  I still believe there is room for B&M stores, and an importance to maintain them.


Definitely an importance.
1-For those who like to try before they buy.
2-Especially if you don't have time for it to be delivered &/or to deal with returns--no matter how convenient they are.
3-Renting an instrument--either as a spare or replacement for a broken one--or when travelling.
4-For accessories--especially for travelling/gigging musicians (I'm not one) who run out of stuff.

For me--mostly 1 & 3 and somewhat for 2.

I'm sure there are other reasons.

And nothing against online dealers--they have their place--especially for people who live in areas where a regular brick & mortar store doesn't make sense.

----------


## Bertram Henze

The mood of this thread seems to be captured here (and it features a luthier's shop, watch out!)

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

Denman John, 

Rob Zamites, 

Steve Baker

----------


## Astro

We are living through one of the most dramatic economic revolutions in recorded history. It will dwarf both the agricultural and industrial revolutions of the past and is sweeping through at wild fire pace. Because it is unprecedented, we can't know what will change exactly. And because we are living it, we can't even realize its full impacts.

I guess they will call it something like the Tech Revolution or Computer or Internet Revolutions?

At the same time we have a dramatic shift in US and world demographics and what I would call growing vs mature economic markets. In the US, we are slowing and shifting from consumer based to service and tech based economies. Eventually I would assume much of the tech based economy will drift out to asia leaving us more like service based of a mature or post growth economy as much of Europe is today. Not necessarily better or worse, just different. We will own less stuff, but maybe have more time to live life.

Energy will be a new frontier and unless we quit with the anti-intellectualism fervor that seems to be holding us back in this field,  we will miss the energy revolution and asia will sweep that one up too. Powers that be cant help being controlled by the status quo because thats where the money comes from (in this case established energy co) so we may well miss out on the future of this one as it will sweep through the world even if we ignore it and its developed elsewhere.

Yes it will be harder and harder for B&M stores to open or compete. More Mom and Pops will do what they can from home. Supplemental income will be everyones strategy.

It seems the "New Normal" is there is no longer a "normal" as change is happening so fast it will be harder and harder for the average bloke to recognize it in time to catch or ride "the wave" of their generation. Yet, life goes on. Maybe I'm just getting old ?

Thats just the economic part. With an accompanying frightening explosion of human population that pushes more primitive cultures (not trying to be judgmental, just lack of a better word right now) up against less dogmatic ones, conflicts on greater scales seems inevitable. We forget we live in a closed system and in any closed system there is a way of checking this type of thing. In the case of checking overpopulation, its called War and Pestilence. Its kept us humans in check before and it unfortunately seems our destiny to be subjected to its awful forces again. 

But always hopeful we can learn...


All in the rise and Fall of Guitar Center.

----------

Folkmusician.com, 

lukmanohnz, 

Rob Zamites, 

Steve VandeWater

----------


## Caleb

"We will own less stuff, but maybe have more time to live life."

Sign me up, and the sooner the better.

----------


## Timbofood

I think I have enough "stuff", I don't think this will have a huge impact on me.

----------


## mandroid

The  Are sub $90 Rogue Mandolins any Good?  threads Will come to an  end  with the  demise of MF importing them.

----------


## dan in va

Fender was some $230M in debt last year.  Now they let GC, MF, Music & Arts, etc, open stores anywhere and are allowed to violate any local store's territory and sell anything.  Add in the increasing loss to internet sales of stuff like accessories, pedals, amps, and anything else factory made.  Then there's all the discretionary income that's spent on electronics instead of learning to play string instruments.  

These things combined to put a truly great local guitar store store out of business that was started by what is now a Fender VP some 30 years ago.  It was a place where musicians congregated and met, and is sorely missed.  There was a bulletin board where customers could list music stuff for sale, because the store knew most of that money would just be spent in the store anyhow.  The store guys were working musicians and were free with their knowledge.  And they could almost meet the internet prices, and had a guarantee, unlike the online stores.  But too many of the younger customers would demo stuff and then order online.

Such losses are commonplace now, and are destroying the grass roots.  Sad, but true.  i'm grateful for the cafe.

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Astro

Well ordering instruments through the mail didn't start with Musicians Friend. Over one hundred years ago, Sears Roebuck and Montgomery Ward were a major force in instruments sales and dominated the mandolin, guitar, banjo market probably even more than onlines do today. Our Amazon was their mail order catalogue. 

For that matter, Mom and Pops having to double up and work and sell out of the home certainly isn't new either as that was the norm for shops until the large scale urbanization of this century allowed and required the increased floor space. So now with internet sales the larger floor space isnt supported so I guess what comes around goes around and comes back with its own modern day twists.

BTW, perhaps not by coincidence, I hear that as GC heads for a contraction, Best Buy is planning to expand into instrument sales and will be opening music rooms within the big box and will have  name brand guitars in the near future. Taking advantage of a predicted void with little additional risk ? Also, as department stores collapse from the draw of big box specialty discount stores, look for more of this type trend. Now the specialty big box stores are morphing toward more "multi-specialty" stores trying take advantage of voids and to optimize the inefficiencies of the brick and mortar overhead I suppose.

Around and round we go.

----------


## lflngpicker

I followed the link and read the article with mixed feelings.  On the personal level, it is bitter-sweet.  I bought my all-time best instrument, a Guild D55 acoustic guitar, at the first GC (on Sunset Blvd. in Hollywood-- a very small, storefront) in 1976.  I still play it and it sounds better than ever, today.  We raised our boys in the 1990's going to the mid-size version, before the big box era, when you could still go in and haggle for the price of guitars and drums.  It was a family place for us and holds many memories.  In recent years, I still buy most of my guitars and amplifiers at GC.  For these reasons, it will be missed. 

The other thought is that I am glad for the potential this could mean for the small, local retailers.  There may be a possibility that small town music store make a comeback, not possible with GC alive and well.  Great article.  Thanks for pointing it out to us!

----------


## Jeff Mando

[QUOTE=Astro;1372648  BTW, perhaps not by coincidence, I hear that as GC heads for a contraction, Best Buy is planning to expand into instrument sales and will be opening music rooms within the big box and will have  name brand guitars in the near future. Taking advantage of a predicted void with little additional risk ? [/QUOTE]

Best Buy--now there is a name you can trust!  I bought an $800 laptop from Best Buy with a 2-year service agreement.  I only used it when a traveled a couple times a month.  So after 2 years, it really had less than 40 hours on it, I'm guessing.  Looked just like new, in other words.  WELL, just like clockwork, at about 26 months, I started having an issue, so I took it back to Best Buy.  They informed me it was out of warranty, which I knew.  I said fine, just fix it.  The clerk said, repair starts at $89.  I said that will be fine, just fix it.  He said, well $89 won't fix it, it will probably be in the $350 range to get it working again, and suggested I shop for a new laptop, instead, which he was happy to show me.  It was clear they were in the business of selling, with little customer service after the fact.  His trained behavior was hard to describe, like a "polite rudeness", if you will.  Trying to move me along, so he could get to somebody else.  I left angry and took it to a local repair place and they got it working for $100 and it has been fine ever since.  I wonder how their mandolin setups are..........???

----------


## Astro

I wont even go into a Best Buy anymore. I can't figure out how they stay afloat. Their prices aren't a Best Buy and their service is dismal.

----------


## Timbofood

I worked in a small shop here in Kalamazoo pretty much all acoustic but, we did venture into the accessory pond, shallow end. There were other places we had excellent working relationships with who really understood electrics and all the related goods. Sunshine guitars, Proco sound, Uncle Dirty's sound machine studio. 
In fact, the store started in the upstairs bathroom space at ProCo and,progressed into the hallway, finally moving to it's own storefront. People came to meet, talk, pick, learn, tell lies, all that stuff. It was the old tackle shop kind of feel, everyone had a common interest and supported the place. I met some pretty amazing musicians when they were playing in Kalamazoo or passing through. Worked with people who have been my friends ever since, learned all kinds of things from them all. Some of the most cherished memories are from there.
It's this kind of store which suffers when a community changes buying habits, the internet, big box stores, eBay. There is no going back to the golden days of yesteryear anymore. The community wants it how it wants it, the human race will continue to change, that's just how the world turns. A very dear friend told me when I was starting to play mandolin,"If you miss a note, you can't go back for it, it's gone forever." So, if you miss that old store, you can't go back for it, it's gone forever.

----------


## multidon

I too have mixed feelings about GC. I have bought some really nice instruments there and made some good deals too. I remember when they used to have holiday sales, they were real sales and they would clean out the back room, haul out all the trade ins, scratch and dent, b stock, overstocks, everything but the floor sweepings. The line waiting for them to open would go around the block as people were enthusiastic as they never knew exactly what they could snap up. This was all before the capital companies took over. These type of sales went away and along with it the fun was gone too. The capitalists just sucked all the fun out of Shopping at GC. It is a different company now and I generally don't care for it as it now exists. Still go there occasionally for some things though. 

It is interesting that nobody on this thread has brought up Elderly. Now there's a business model that works. They do it all. A kick butt brick and mortar store and a world class Internet business all in one! I say world class because last year I had seven instruments on consignment there during a downsizing phase. All sold within 3 months. One of them went to Japan, and one went to England. Every musician I know checks out their web site regularly to look at their used inventory. I know there are other brick and mortar stores with a web presence but it seems to me Elderly is in a class of its own. I respect them tremendously.

----------

rfloyd

----------


## Jim Adwell

Elderly was the go-to place for higher end instruments, both selling and buying, long before the internet.  They do it with superior service, reliability, and honesty.

----------


## Folkmusician.com

> We are living through one of the most dramatic economic revolutions in recorded history. It will dwarf both the agricultural and industrial revolutions of the past and is sweeping through at wild fire pace. Because it is unprecedented, we can't know what will change exactly. And because we are living it, we can't even realize its full impacts.


What a great summary!  It puts a lot of things into perspective.

I might be more emotional about the whole mom & pop thing than most. It is not just about how it touches my life. Most of my family has been self employed for generations. I have always been self employed. My wife came into the business straight out of college. My parents, grandparents, great grandparents, were all self employed. 

Like Astro, I don't see all of this as necessarily being a bad thing (much of it is). It will be different (it already is). It is surely not the end of small business! Now brick and Mortar shops?  That is another story.... The consumers have spoken and Mom and Pop shops have been voted out. We will see demand for some in certain areas. Others will be a distant memory. Think record shop, book store, electronics store, etc..  Most of these are already endangered species. I am sad to see this part and again, not so much for me, as it has always been a very small percentage of my business. I have always wanted to own a cool acoustic shop that stood on it's own without the internet sales. The reality is that I ship more mandolins in one week than I can sell locally in a year.




> Yes it will be harder and harder for B&M stores to open or compete. More Mom and Pops will do what they can from home. Supplemental income will be everyones strategy.


It will also be harder and harder for internet stores to compete. There was a time when it was cheaper to launch a website than a physical storefront.  That has shifted with the complexity of the market. It is now very difficult (and expensive), to jump into e-commerce at a competitive level.  The additional problem is that you are not just competing with well established competitors. There is also a never ending supplying of business that are not sustainable, but do disrupt the market.  When one ill advised business jumps in with a crazy 100% trade-in policy, prices that are just too low, or whatever non-sustainable offer, it takes a toll on well run businesses. The ill-run business eventually goes under, but before it does, up pops another and the cycle continues.  This is nothing new and competition keeps everything in check. For the most part, this does benefit the consumer. However, there are certain business models that can't stand up to this. The music store is one that is especially vulnerable because of the nature of the product and level of service needed.  The B&M music shops that survive will be the standout versions that are exceptionally good at what they do and I don't believe that their main focus can be based around local sales of instruments. They will need multichannel sales and service income streams (this has been the case for years). In fact, even the best shops may find the local instrument showroom to be a liability more than an asset. The only way to change course, will be for the consumer to step in and support local shops. Of course, the online shops have better selection and better pricing, so is this realistic?  Probably not.

As Astro points out, this is all accelerating at a rapid pace. I have watched Amazon significantly up the instrument offerings in just the past year.  The real game changer, is that I am seeing the manufacturers jump on board with full support of this. This is not just a shift in consumer habits, much of the industry is now embracing the change as well. Maybe they don’t have a choice?

----------

David Rambo

----------


## Timbofood

Respectfully Robert, there is always a choice just, not always the one we want to make.
But, that being said, the only constant with everything is change.

----------

MikeEdgerton

----------


## John Flynn

This has far reaching societal implications! Where will all the pimple-faced teenagers and self-absorbed adults go to plug into the largest amp, turn it up to "11" and shred for hours on end? Every GC I've ever been seems to have a shredder on duty every time I come in. Where will these people go? Where else can they find an outlet for their pointless ego-tripping? They may try to force themselves on real music stores. They may turn to crime. They may become "sonic terrorists."

----------

Jeff Mando

----------


## Folkmusician.com

I think GC keeps a list of names on hand..

"Hey John, this is Steve over at GC.  Billy is out sick today, do you think you could fill his 2:30-3:30 slot? If you could just do your standard 60 minute noodling session, that would be great.  Will have the half stack ready to go for you!"

"Oh, I almost forgot..  the guitar is only tuned down one step. I know that is on the high side for you, but we don't have anyone here that knows how to retune!"

----------

Astro, 

David Rambo, 

Jackgaryk, 

John Flynn, 

Timbofood

----------


## zedmando

> I think GC keeps a list of names on hand..
> 
> "Hey John, this is Steve over at GC.  Billy is out sick today, do you think you could fill his 2:30-3:30 slot? If you could just do your standard 60 minute noodling session, that would be great.  Will have the half stack ready to go for you!"
> 
> "Oh, I almost forgot..  the guitar is only tuned down one step. I know that is on the high side for you, but we don't have anyone here that knows how to retune!"


I'm sure they have a schedule...

----------


## steve V. johnson

The four or five big music hardware retailers have come to stand alone as a result of the consolidation trends of big business in 
general, which I personally think is an effect of everyone getting high on the internet.   All business at that level seems to be 
cyclical, so I'd expect that in the next few years we'll see either some way that local stores can serve us better than the big 
retailers, or that some new form of retailing will emerge.

As for Behringer, to their credit they've evolved from doing the cheapest & worst iterations of stolen designs to making very 
useful stuff at very accessible prices.  Their products aren't always good quality in performance nor truly durable, but the overall
quality has come a long way, and they've had the drive to broaden their product range very widely.   Again, as with all cycles, 
it's interesting to find, especially outside the US, a bunch of other companies chewing away at the Behr' market share.  Still, I try not to let folks buy into that ... 'disposable crap' level of tech if I can help it.  ;-)

Another interesting thing is that there is a whole lot of great audio gear in the used market.  Products last well and with a minimum
of care, have long lives and present great alternatives and often far better quality than the mainstream (i.e., Behringer) gear on offer.

Enjoy,
stv

----------


## Emmett Marshall

Maybe they'll have a really huge liquidation sale on pro audio and stuff?  Yes, I know, I'm a vulture.

----------


## mandroid

GC  Still has Advertising  Time bought, as  seen on the Cable  last Night.

----------


## JeffD

> We are living through one of the most dramatic economic revolutions in recorded history. It will dwarf both the agricultural and industrial revolutions of the past and is sweeping through at wild fire pace. Because it is unprecedented, we can't know what will change exactly. And because we are living it, we can't even realize its full impacts..... It seems the "New Normal" is there is no longer a "normal" as change is happening so fast it will be harder and harder for the average bloke to recognize it in time to catch or ride "the wave" of their generation. Yet, life goes on.


Ummm, nah.  :Smile: 

I think we can never see our present times with the clarity and intellectual separation with which we can see the past. We don't have access to all the facts about our times that future historians will have. 

So the times we are in always look more dramatic, more chaotic, more confusing, and more unprecedented, than any other time in history. The only real difference in the ebb and flow of human society over time, is that _these_ are the times we are in. These are the only times we can be in. It is the traditions and norms that _we_ grew up with that are changing.

When I was a kid my father said similar things, and when he was a kid his father said similar things. In fact that gentleman lived through the coming apart of his whole world, the murder of most of his entire family and everyone he knew in that that city and the dispersal of the survivors to the four corners of the world. In context, the plight of Guitar Center and its impact seems kind of minor.




> We forget we live in a closed system and in any closed system there is a way of checking this type of thing. In the case of checking overpopulation, its called War and Pestilence.


Again, nah.  :Smile: 

There are some respected intellectuals who don't see population growth as inevitably rising to the point of a epic corrective disaster, but that in societies with healthier middle classes, technology, education, and where the average Joe can expect a reasonable amount of self determination, freedom, and a chance at success, the population growth is a kind of sigmoid function where instead of going off the charts it pans out to a more or less sustainable level.

The goal then, would be to work on making that kind of society more ubiquitous. 




> But always hopeful we can learn...


Yes. On that I agree.

This evening I have a date with a bourbon old fashioned, and a listen to Avi Avital playing some Bach. [Finally some mandolin content.] I will further consider your thoughts at that time.  :Smile:

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allenhopkins, 

Bernie Daniel, 

Caleb

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## Folkmusician.com

I just saw this interesting read:

http://geargods.net/white-collar-cri...nter-madhouse/

Guitar Center Corporate Is Apparently A Madhouse Right Now

Last week, we published a series of internal emails detailing layoffs at Guitar Center’s corporate offices, and now we are starting to hear that things are pretty crazy at GC HQ – more jobs are getting cut, people are under intense pressure to perform at all levels, and GC’s new CEO is attempting to maintain calm while the company’s stock continues to tank........

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Tom Haywood

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## Jeff Hildreth

Local GC manager ( 23rd in 18 years)   says "GC HQ has fired A FEW SUITS in order to better compensate the retail staff members."

I believe he knows the truth and bet he was given that directive to pass on to the plebes to quell the impending riot.

GC has been substandard since their inception. Best description I could give is : UNPROFESSIONAL.

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## Dan of SC

> I don't know enough about the financial world to disagree with that blog author's conclusions, but it doesn't take a degree in economics to know that big box retail is on the skids. 
> 
> Also, this quote from the conclusion in the article is both hilarious and frightening:
> 
> 
> 
> If Behringer is the future, then we're all in deep doodoo. It's the Wal-Mart ethos applied to music gear: don't care if it lasts, don't care what it sounds like, as long as it's cheaper than anything else.


I was recently reminded that the lowest price, regardless of quality, is driven by the consumer.

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## Chip Stewart

The Harmony Central forums (which are owned by Guitar Center) are currently down.  Hopefully it's just a technical snafu and not something permanent.  There have been some issues over there recently with GC being upset about people talking about their demise on the HC forums.

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## Chip Stewart

The Harmony Central forums are back up, so it must have just been a technical snafu.

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## Tobin

> I just saw this interesting read:
> 
> http://geargods.net/white-collar-cri...nter-madhouse/


Wow.  That does not paint a pretty picture for the future of the company.  Looks like this ship is sinking fast.

On a side note, one of the links in that article really gave me a chuckle, as it mirrors exactly my experience every time I go into a Guitar Center: 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x23...r-center_music

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## Mark Wilson

> On a side note, one of the links in that article really gave me a chuckle, as it mirrors exactly my experience every time I go into a Guitar Center: 
> 
> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x23...r-center_music


 :Grin:  Yep.  Deja vu.

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## Bertram Henze

> On a side note, one of the links in that article really gave me a chuckle, as it mirrors exactly my experience every time I go into a Guitar Center: 
> 
> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x23...r-center_music


 :Disbelief:  :Laughing:  No nay never would I even start considering going there to buy a mandolin.

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## Jeff Mando

While GC certainly made their mark in the world of consumer music, I'm sure another outfit is waiting in the wings to take over. (remember MARS music?)  Although, each new version is probably going to be more Walmart in appearance.  Heck, it might even be Walmart taking over--after all--they've "produced" albums by the Eagles and AC/DC exclusively for their patrons and you can't say their "distribution" ain't great--seems like there is a Walmart every 8 miles where I live....

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## Caleb

I liked Mars Music and was genuinely sad to see it go.  The one in Arlington, Texas was a really great store.

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