# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Any help identifying old Mandolin?

## Vagueperson

In my area this mandolin is for sale. The seller claims that three different appraisals all confirmed it was made in Italy, but it doesn't have any indications of who made it.

The ad states 1920's, but in a message he stated he thought it was from the 1890's:

"This is what I know this mandolin was a family Heirloom it holds a tune better than some mandolins and not as well as others.
I love string instruments, its a hundred years old ( I personally think its 1890s or so) its not in pristine shape.
If you try to find it on line. Every west Europiun country made the exact design. Germany, Poland, France, Italy,Scotland. So its in beautiful playing shape.
And one beautiful piece of history to me. Every thing on it is original, if you want to get all new parts from the bridge and the tensioners, on down. You will lose the original tone. Its a solid Mandolin."

Is there enough in these pictures to figure out anything more? Think it's worth sinking $180 (or visiting - it's 1.5 hours away)?

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## NickR

Is there an "Italy" district of Chicago? It's most probably a product of Regal, possibly Lyon & Healy. It may be worth the money if it is !00%. I was unaware that Scotland had a mandolin making tradition- a small number were made in England. There was a "Little Italy" district of London.

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DavidKOS

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## Vagueperson

> Is there an "Italy" district of Chicago? It's most probably a product of Regal, possibly Lyon & Healy. It may be worth the money if it is !00%. I was unaware that Scotland had a mandolin making tradition- a small number were made in England. There was a "Little Italy" district of London.


Yeah, I think Little Italy in Chicago is around Taylor Street.  :Laughing:

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## DavidKOS

> Is there an "Italy" district of Chicago? It's most probably a product of Regal, possibly Lyon & Healy. It may be worth the money if it is !00%. I was unaware that Scotland had a mandolin making tradition- a small number were made in England. There was a "Little Italy" district of London.


It sure looks like a Regal or another Chicago maker.

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## Simon DS

Interesting the background the seller has chosen for this one, the old cupboard. The headstock has a similar features.

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## Vagueperson

Think an old Regal is worth a 1.5 hour drive for a look at this price? I don't see much damage in the photos aside from some wear on the soundboard and some scratches on the bowl. I don't have experience playing any mandolins aside from my Kentucky.

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## allenhopkins

> Think an old Regal is worth a 1.5 hour drive for a look at this price? ...


Depends on how much you want a bowl-back.  Consensus is that it's early-20th-century American.  Generally, those were well-made mandolins, and if this one's in excellent playable condition, the price is in line with what they get on the market these days.

Bowl-backs sound different, have to be held differently, generally have shorter scales, and have to be strung with extra-light strings because they're built much more lightly than more modern flat-back mandolins.  They can be really pretty-sounding, and very suitable for classical, folk, Italian/European, and other non-bluegrass styles of music.  

This one's not a huge bargain, and there are many of these century-plus-old Chicago-made instruments on the market most of the time.  You could end up with a neat addition to your "collection," that would take your music in a new direction.  Or it could sit little-used in its case.  (By the way, does it have a case?  It can be hard to find a decently protective bowl-back case; both mine sit in chipboard cases that are pretty marginal.)

Your call.

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## NickR

Many Neapolitan made mandolins made circa 1900 were little more than tourist souvenirs- their build quality is low and their playability zilch- then there's 120 years of life and its tribulations on top of that. This mandolin looks to be in good order- what you cannot tell is its intonation which you can check in person. I think you have to expect it to be a little less player friendly than your Kentucky. I began learning on my great grandfather's 1890s bowl backs. One was a Ferrari and the other a Vinaccia- a good make. When I pick them up now, I wonder how I persevered. I would assume this Regal might be a little easier to play than those two I tangled with many years ago.

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## mrmando

Might be worth the $180 if it doesn't need any work.  As for the driving distance, try to get the seller to meet you halfway. 

Don't believe a thing the seller says about it ... the seller is singularly uninformed about mandolins in general and this mandolin in particular.

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Peter K

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## brunello97

> Many Neapolitan made mandolins made circa 1900 were little more than tourist souvenirs- their build quality is low and their playability zilch- then there's 120 years of life and its tribulations on top of that. This mandolin looks to be in good order- what you cannot tell is its intonation which you can check in person. I think you have to expect it to be a little less player friendly than your Kentucky. I began learning on my great grandfather's 1890s bowl backs. One was a Ferrari and the other a Vinaccia- a good make. When I pick them up now, I wonder how I persevered. I would assume this Regal might be a little easier to play than those two I tangled with many years ago.


Good point on the variable intonation on MOR Italian bowlbacks. With the Ferraris, DeMuredas, Lanfrancos, etc. etc. It can be pretty sketchioso in my experience. 
My Vinaccia (not an MOR builder) is spot on, however.  A joy to play.  
I've had any number of Great Lakes Rim bowlbacks and have found the intonation to be fairly reliable.  Or as reliable as one can expect from a short-scale mandolin.
Tone quality is another story, but I agree with Allen:  A _lot_ of nice mandolins came out of that L+H / Regal pipeline.  What else is $180 going to get you?

Mick

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allenhopkins

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## MikeEdgerton

Most likely Chicago made, date is after 1900 and before 1920 and I would hazard a guess that it's a Harmony or Lyon & Healy. If it's playable it's worth what you're willing to pay for it but don't assume you can sell it for that much. Bowlbacks regularly fail to sell weekly on eBay.

*Here* is every recent bowlback sale on eBay.

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...What else is $180 going to get you?


3 Rogues and some strings!

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brunello97

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## LadysSolo

Go and see it, if you like it and the sound, I would offer $150. I have several bowlbacks, paid less than $200 for each of them, and enjoy them for their sound. That's the main thing - do YOU Like the sound? And if you get it, get a piece of shelf liner from Lowe's or similar place to make it easier to keep on your lap, and string it with very light strings.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Think an old Regal is worth a 1.5 hour drive for a look at this price? I don't see much damage in the photos aside from some wear on the soundboard and some scratches on the bowl. I don't have experience playing any mandolins aside from my Kentucky.


The bigger issue will be the action where the neck meets the body. Get a picture of that. You can have him stack quarters at that point. There is really no way to adjust the neck on these.

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## Vagueperson

no mention of a case.

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## NickR

Here is a very similar mandolin- the one you have shown has more ribs in the bowl but a more utilitarian bridge- which is old. That type of bridge was around for quite a while and is typical of the 20s and 30s but it may be older. Same tuners. Your mandolin does not appear to have a tailpiece cover which it probably ought to have. The one on this is mandolin is hinged. Remember the asking price is not a measure of an instruments true value- it may well be too high. There is a demo.

https://reverb.com/item/117300-brazi...back-1890-1910

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## brunello97

L+H (and maybe others) deployed the dubious practive of insetting a thin strip of white edging within a single bowl rib to make it appear as two.  Easy to see with bowl in hand from the grain pattern.  Or when you have a bowl come appart.  The bowl curve geometry shows more distinct faceting than if there were only independent ribs.

I've got a suspicion about this one in that regard, but it is hard to tell for sure from the small photo.  Not that it should be a deal breaker, the rosewood used on even the most ordinary bowls out of Chicago was often very very nice.

Also from the small photos, the action looks pretty good.  Offer $150 and use the $30 you save on getting a nice cloud tailpiece. 

Pass on the Three Rogues.....

Mick

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## MikeEdgerton

> Here is a very similar mandolin- the one you have shown has more ribs in the bowl but a more utilitarian bridge- which is old. That type of bridge was around for quite a while and is typical of the 20s and 30s but it may be older. Same tuners. Your mandolin does not appear to have a tailpiece cover which it probably ought to have. The one on this is mandolin is hinged. Remember the asking price is not a measure of an instruments true value- it may well be too high. There is a demo.
> 
> https://reverb.com/item/117300-brazi...back-1890-1910


If it was built before 1924 a Regal would have been built by Wulschner in Indianapolis or Lyon and Healy. I've never seen an unlabeled Wulschner mandolin, I've seen plenty of Lyon & Healy's. Lyon and Healy bought the Regal brand name in 1904 and applied it to some of their instruments. Those instruments would have been labeled Regal, they would not have been unlabeled. Unlabeled the brand name meant nothing. They would have been built by Lyon and Healy. In 1924 Lyon & Healy set up Regal as an independent company. This mandolin is earlier than that. It wasn't built by Regal, it was either built by Lyon and Healy or some other builder like Harmony. For decades we have used Regal as a catch all, in this case it can't be. That would apply to the original poster's instrument as well. There's no way it's a Regal.

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## NickR

Pleijsier tells us that having bought the Regal trade name in 1904, a new company was incorporated using the Regal name in 1908. He suggests that Lyon & Healy kept a financial interest in this new enterprise as the Regal trademark was not transferred to the Regal Musical Instrument Company until 1924 as you mention.

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## MikeEdgerton

They wouldn't have been building for the trade, they would have been building branded instruments. Again, it doesn't make sense to lump it in. Sorry, I'm not buying it just because someone on Reverb has a Regal with a question mark on a similar instrument. Find a branded copy that's similar and it's plausible, other wise it much more likely to have been a L&H instrument or something that was built by one of the established builders. Nothing points this towards Regal. Regal became the bulk builder for the trade after this would have hit the market.

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## NickR

I don't disagree with your viewpoint at all. My only point was that the mandolins are similar and I was showing that some sellers are asking unrealistic prices- not that it was definitely made by Regal. My message to the original poster being don't be tempted to pay too much because somebody else was being unrealistic. My original post mentioned Regal and Lyon and Healy as possible makers but as you point out the original Regal company probably predates the era this mandolin was made so it is more likely Lyon & Healy. I can't comment on Harmony as that maker's bowlbacks do not appear to be common- or they are attributed to others which does not help matters. In conclusion if he drives for 180 minutes to view this mandolin, I hope it is time well spent.

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## Jim Garber

From the looks of it, it is very close to a American Conservatory style 602. These pages are from my 1912 catalog:

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brunello97, 

MikeEdgerton

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## NickR

Yes, I think you are right- you can see how the price goes up as the ribs increase. Let's hope that the potential buyer is happy- assuming he has made the journey. I would assume if he bought it, we would hear from him. So, it is definitely from Lyon & Healy- minus the tailpiece cover.

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## brunello97

> From the looks of it, it is very close to a American Conservatory style 602. These pages are from my 1912 catalog:


L+H American Conservatory mandolins: the best $/value ratio on the used mandolin market.

Mick

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## brunello97

Here's a telling example of the L+H "one rib into two" technique on a model built for the trade in Cleveland, OH.  

Not sure if this was ever fooling anyone, or whether it was used in concert with the "more ribs, more $$" approach as suggested by the catalogs. 

I've had a few "no name" or "our own label" L+H bowls apart where this trickery was evident.  

Can't say I've seen it on Washburn or AC bowls but who knows?

Absolutely lickable rosewood nonetheless.

Mick

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## Vagueperson

I asked the seller for a picture of the action where the neck meets the body. He hasn't responded to that. Since then he did, however, post a "Mandolin Ibenez 1976 2 point model 513" for $275. Not really interested in that, but I might continue to pester him about the bowlback.

I have a relative who lives in Greece, and I'm wondering if it might be more worth my while to have him look at local prices for a new Matsikas. How do well taken care of vintage Chicago instruments compared to a new European bowl-back? I'm guessing the quality of Rosewood isn't comparable, but I'm more interested in sound and playability.

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## NickR

Here is a Matsikas for sale by Thomann of Germany- a company known for its competitive pricing. This is their UK related website showing one at about $310. What the mandolin might cost in Greece I cannot say but Thomann does offer great deals. If you get a relative in Greece to buy you one then you have shipping and any import duty that may accrue. 
I always ask a seller to slide pennies on TOP of fret 12 under the G strings. It's not a perfect methodology but at 1.5mm thick then one penny would be great but most unlikely- two not so good but my Vinaccia at that point accepts two pennies and they push the strings up a little and it is a good instrument that has satisfied by guitar/mandolin man's high standards- not all my mandolins do! The body of my Vinaccia is just beyond fret 9 and at that fret the gap is about 2mm or so.Other coins can be used- a quarter is  1.75mm and so on until the coin or coins fill the gap. Here is the Thomann link:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/matsikas_m...d_mandolin.htm

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## Vagueperson

there's also this one in NY, apparently: http://www.stutzmansguitarcenter.com...lin%20sISI3703

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## NickR

At $200 that is a comparable price to the old Lyon & Healy you posted up. I  would not wish to make a comparison as the former is nearly new, the latter about 110 years old. I would imagine that the materials- certainly as mentioned in the Thomann link are very different and other factors come into the equation. I see the neck joins the body at fret 10 on both instruments- you might ask the seller of the L & H to do that coin check at fret 10- ideally photograph it. I have had measurements that mention "wiggle" room for the coins which actually meant that another would also fit on top! I suppose you have to decide if you want to own a vintage instrument- having made the right observations or just go to a new instrument that is possibly more functional. Many people here don't struggle with that conundrum- they just buy mandolins for pastime!

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## Vagueperson

Ah yes, but then to contend with the wife! Also, I primarily play classical guitar.

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## Jim Garber

From what I recall, the Greek makers have a different method of mandolin-making. I believe that the tops are not bent like other vintage European  (Italian, German, French, etc.) or American bowlbacks but that there is some internal carving of the tops.

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## Vagueperson

This one makes it look like the top is bent but perhaps less so? https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATSIKAS-GR...-/381681440251

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## Vagueperson

I asked for photos of the string height and this is what he sent me.






Lots of opportunity to guess whether they are legit separate or painted stripes

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## Vagueperson

Now he's sent one.

"And a quarter is very close ( if you lay the mandolin on it’s side the quarter drops threw the strings and the finger board at the neck and body cross."

He's not great at spelling, but he reduced the price to $160 without me making an offer.

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## MikeEdgerton

I'm guessing you are the only one showing any interest and he's afraid he's going to lose you now that your asking questions that he probably knows the answers to.

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## Vagueperson

Here's the demo video he sent

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## Steve 2E

To me it seems like a worthwhile venture to take an afternoon and check it out. You obviously have a lot of curiosity and if you dont end up buying it at least you will have gained some knowledge about vintage bowlbacks. Find a nice restaurant in the area and make a day of it. For me personally, if its playable at $160 its worth it. Though I would still negotiate a lower price.

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## Vagueperson

I was trying to find an instrument with the same style tuning machines (rectangular) and here they are on a LH American Conservatory.
https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/20...servatory.html


OP image:


Maybe this style/shape isn't unique, but most I saw had the solid metal plate or some curvature around the 3 on plate tuners.

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## NickR

Those tuners were very common and stayed in production for decades. You will find them on all manner of mandolins and date from early in the 20th century- those other styles are earlier and possibly as they are more elaborate, more expensive than the plain rectangular plates. As American Conservatory was a sub brand there was an element of shaving the price and more utilitarian tuners would be one way of doing this. However, this mandolin appears to be well built and in good order while the action looks very good as the photo demonstrates. I don't think anything thus far can be seen as a red flag and if he has dropped the price then that is in your favour. It's up to you now- as has been suggested if you go and visit, try and build something around the journey so it is less of a chore and more of a day or afternoon out.

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## Peter K

I would also ID that mandolin as American Conservatory (their lower grade instrument).
On one of their pictures I detect a hint of fretboard upward bow which would impose limitations on playability.
A proper repair of a bowed fretboard, plus any other repairs that invariably crop up, is sure to cost much more than what you'd be able to get for thus repaired mandolin, if you  decide to sell it some day.

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## brunello97

Let's be clear here folks.  This is NOT an American Conservatory mandolin, which L+H always clearly labeled as such.  That it _resembles_ the one in the page that Jim posted shouldn't then be a reason to get ahead of oneself with attribution.  

L+H made a lot of mandolins lines.  AC was not their lower grade instrument....check them out in terms of material quality and detailing.  They made a _lot_ of lower grade mandolins than the AC line (Jupiter, Lakeside, College Line...all manner of unlabeled mandolins.)  I've seen numerous AC mandolins that were nicer (in terms of materials and detailing) than mandolins from the Washburn line.   A proper AC mandolin (they made many with ebony fretboards) is a very good mandolin.

Hard to tell from the bowl photos, but I do have the feeling these are "two for one" ribs. Could be wrong about this.  Much easier to tell with mandolin in hand. Mind you, the extra faux rib separators were not painted on, but inset into the rosewood rib.   Again, I don't think it should be a deal killer.  L+H used it on a lot of mandolins.  Others might have as well.

The action appears a bit high to my playing preference, but that may be manageable with some simple bridge work.  As Peter suggests, if the neck has rotated up a bit, it could make the action adjustment through bridge work less effective.  Checking it with a metal straightedge should make its condition clear.  I wouldn't buy it and invest much in repairs unless you do them yourselves.  Lots of fish in the Chicago mando sea. 

You can talk yourself into it or talk yourself out of it, but only so much you can ascertain from a distance.  

Mick

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## NickR

Here is another American Conservatory mandolin which is very similar to the mandolin in question. It has exactly the same tuners as on that mandolin- and bridge. The tuners on the AC mandolin from Jake's website do in fact have what looks like brass plates and riveted gears- they are not identical. Obviously, there is no label inside the mandolin but it may have fallen out. There are some small differences to the pickguards  and other detailing but overall they are very alike. That does not prove the mandolin is an American Conservatory but it appears to be from the same maker and share the same build quality. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Bow...ndition=4%7C10

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## MikeEdgerton

Lyon & Healy built more instruments with no label than they did with a label. How do I know? You can tell by what shows up all these years later. There's a reason there is only a stick-on label inside. You could brand it or choose to not brand it anyway you wanted to. I was looking for a picture that I can't find of a stack of bowlback mandolins inside L&H's factory. I'm sure they weren't labeled but they were built to a certain trim level. If someone ordered a "for the trade" mandolin or two at a specific trim level and it matched a group of American Conservatory mandolins sitting there unlabeled I'm sure they would have done what any other factory does and fill the order. You also had the ability to have two or three dealers in the same area selling one of your brands exclusively while another dealer was selling the same product with a different brand name. That still happens in certain industries. I think Jim is pretty much right on with the identity, not as a brand name but as a L&H product that matched the specs of the AC. It's the only way to ID a large number of instruments from this era and later.

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Jim Garber

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...The action appears a bit high to my playing preference...


Mine too. I'm going to guess there's more than just bridge work to get that down.

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## brunello97

> Lyon & Healy built more instruments with no label than they did with a label. How do I know? You can tell by what shows up all these years later. There's a reason there is only a stick-on label inside. You could brand it or choose to not brand it anyway you wanted to. I was looking for a picture that I can't find of a stack of bowlback mandolins inside L&H's factory. I'm sure they weren't labeled but they were built to a certain trim level. If someone ordered a "for the trade" mandolin or two at a specific trim level and it matched a group of American Conservatory mandolins sitting there unlabeled I'm sure they would have done what any other factory does and fill the order. You also had the ability to have two or three dealers in the same area selling one of your brands exclusively while another dealer was selling the same product with a different brand name. That still happens in certain industries. *I think Jim is pretty much right on with the identity, not as a brand name but as a L&H product that matched the specs of the AC. It's the only way to ID a large number of instruments from this era and later.*


I think this is a broad brush description of L+H construction and labeling practices that contains both reasoned insight and some unhelpful hyperbole.  The 'match the specs of.....' is a worthy conclusion.

That great photo of the pile of bowls under construction, that Mike references just as likely was a production run or two of a particular line of mandolins as it was a smorgazbord made up of a range of parts of different details, materials, qualities. Hard to imagine it was some Washburns, some ACs, some Lakesides, etc. with the labels making the difference without a heavy degree of QC.  I run a fabrication shop and that type of assembly complexity doesn't make a lot of sense if you're trying to control quality.  Easier ways to do organize that kind of work.

Maybe they did do something approximating that...but it wasn't a process of making a bunch of things and then dishing out the labels. Too much variety in the extant work.  Quality of woods were probably consistent across such a run as well. But differe from line to line.  

You can imagine any guy on the line getting his work order for the day, just like in any other carpentry or fab shop.  When finished they go in the big pile for the next level of trim, hardware of finish.  Obviously, the fingerboards, tuners, scratchplates, tailpieces etc. varied with the "quality" of the final product line. 

AC as well as Washburn varied across the models as well as crossed over quality between the two. But they are pretty easy to tell apart.  Less so as you move down the L+H food chain.  I have had a couple "Our Own Brand"  L+Hs of quality higher than upper level Washburns, but with distinctly different detailing of headstock, neck joint, etc. They weren't making mudpies.  They wouldn't have been labeled Washburns or AC.  

Easy to imagine some mandolins getting "repurposed" to meet another order, though, but I think it a stretch to apply such thinking to an entire production process at L+H.   I've gone through my fair share of Chicago bowls, unlabled L+H mandos, "Our Own Label" L+Hs and also Washburns and ACs.  The label alone isn't what mades them different from each other.  Some details are similar, but there was enough distinction to make things clear.  That was a small sample of a dozen or so instruments.  

We jump through all kinds of hoops here to be clear in our attribution of Gibsons, for instance, or assumptions that eg. Luigi Embergher was sitting next to the guy who built my mandolin. I'm only lobbying for some of the same clarity with L+H bowls.    If this were an AC bowlback it would have a label.  They don't "fall out".  (Just try taking one out if you don't believe me....)  If it is "just like an AC model" well that's easy enough to type as well.

Mick

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## MikeEdgerton

> I think this is a broad brush description of L+H construction and labeling practices that contains both reasoned insight and some unhelpful hyperbole.  The 'match the specs of.....' is a worthy conclusion.
> 
> That great photo of the pile of bowls under construction, that Mike references just as likely was a production run or two of a particular line of mandolins as it was a smorgazbord made up of a range of parts of different details, materials, qualities. Hard to imagine it was some Washburns, some ACs, some Lakesides, etc. with the labels making the difference without a heavy degree of QC.  I run a fabrication shop and that type of assembly complexity doesn't make a lot of sense if you're trying to control quality.  Easier ways to do organize that kind of work.
> 
> Maybe they did do something approximating that...but it wasn't a process of making a bunch of things and then dishing out the labels. Too much variety in the extant work.  Quality of woods were probably consistent across such a run as well. But differe from line to line.  
> 
> You can imagine any guy on the line getting his work order for the day, just like in any other carpentry or fab shop.  When finished they go in the big pile for the next level of trim, hardware of finish.  Obviously, the fingerboards, tuners, scratchplates, tailpieces etc. varied with the "quality" of the final product line. 
> 
> AC as well as Washburn varied across the models as well as crossed over quality between the two. But they are pretty easy to tell apart.  Less so as you move down the L+H food chain.  I have had a couple "Our Own Brand"  L+Hs of quality higher than upper level Washburns, but with distinctly different detailing of headstock, neck joint, etc. They weren't making mudpies.  They wouldn't have been labeled Washburns or AC.  
> ...


I'm sure those bowls were finished to a point, separated by bowl, headstock shape, whatever and like you said, simply finished with the tuners, scratch plate, etc. Heck, they might have been unbound, I have no idea, I just understand how well run factories work. All you have to do is look at the early Gibson 2nd lines to understand that they didn't know what to do with all of their extra pieces until a declining economy made them think outside their normal box. Then they started building combinations that were unusual at best. I think L&H was better at building bulk than Gibson was but they were positioned differently in the market than Gibson was. I've never seen a Lyon & Healy "for the trade" catalog but there must have been one. If you had those you'd have a better chance of identifying these unlabeled instruments. Without them the best you can do is find a similar branded model. Heavens knows that Hubert's book gets a whole lot of mileage even though we rarely see these labeled Washburn.

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