# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  Bill Monroe Question

## neebee

I have been listening to Will the Circle Be Unbroken alot lately and also just finished the Bill Monroe biography.  Anybody out there know if Bill was asked to participate in that recording?  Seems like he would have been a good fit, musically anyway.

Neal

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

The story I heard after the album came out is that Bill declined to participate... something about too much long hair involvment.  Don't know how much truth there is to this, but I can certainly see that as an issue for him.  There was some pretty progressive stuff on there, at least for that time period.

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## evanreilly

Apparently Bill was put off by the the use of 'Nitty" in the name of the band.  Nits lived in long hair and Bill did not approve; consequently, he declined the invitation to participate in the recordings.

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## swampstomper

Also, the musicianship of the backup band was not up to his standards. Just listen to Jimmy Martin chewing them out, you can imagine how Bill would have reacted. Now, playing duets with Doc, or reprising instrumentals with Vassar, I am sure he'd have been happy doing. That whole project is sub-par every time the backing musicians take a break. Luckily they hired an excellent bassman (Junior Huskey) or the whole thing would have fallen apart.

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## Denny Gies

I have always heard the same story as Lynn has noted.

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## Mando Bondage

Making this comment, and preparing for "verbal castration"!! as well as enlightenment: I have ALWAYS been aware of Bill Monroe and his influence on Music, but have only been more interested, due to this forum, the mandolin, Bluegrass, etc., and I must admit he seems to come off to me, in my opinion, as a rather gruff, grumpy individual! While I have not read the biographies about him, (I have viewed "High and Lonesome" though!), I am somewhat puzzled as to what to think of Mr Monroe! I have read about his disdain and feelings of betrayal, etc for other Bluegrass performers, (i.e. Flatt and Scruggs, Ralph Stanley, etc.), his attitudes toward other performers, comments concerning  his rumored womanizing, his use of his band members to perform manual labor,etc. for him and his personal property, the claims of composing songs that he may actually have not written, (i.e. Footprints In The Snow), etc., etc., etc.,.....please can someone enlighten me? While I DO love Traditional Bluegrass and am aware of his talent and contribution to Music in general, and feel that he is very worthy of many of the accolades and recognition that he has received, but, is my Image of the Man WAY off base??

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## D C Blood

" is my Image of the Man WAY off base?? "          Yes...and no.    Read Richard Smith's "Can't You Hear Me Calling", to get both sides of Bill Monroe, the Man, The Myth, The Legend...

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## Mando Bondage

D.C. BLOOD:Yes, that is on my "Need to Read" List indeed! 

 Also, as with this thread's topic and the story of his lack of participation on the project due to too much "long hair" involvement,...it seems to me that it was those very same "long hairs" that helped revive his slowly fading career in the late 60's,..am I wrong?

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## Spruce

> ...am I wrong?


No.
And I'm sure Mr. Bill heavily regretted not participating in that project in retrospect...

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## poymando

> Also, the musicianship of the backup band was not up to his standards. Just listen to Jimmy Martin chewing them out, you can imagine how Bill would have reacted. Now, playing duets with Doc, or reprising instrumentals with Vassar, I am sure he'd have been happy doing. That whole project is sub-par every time the backing musicians take a break. Luckily they hired an excellent bassman (Junior Huskey) or the whole thing would have fallen apart.


I respectfully disagree that the "Circle" project is sub par. Perhaps another close listen would change your perspective. As to the musicians not being up to Monroe's standards...well...Ol' Bill hit the stage with some pretty rough bands over the course of his career so that should not have kept him away from this session. 
While Jimmy is caught on tape giving McEuen a hard time about his kick off, I would be willing to bet that he was giving him a poke in fun rather than truly chewing him out. Jimmy appreciated his hosts and was thankful to the NGDB for the rest of his life for being able to participate in that record. It was a major boost for his career and got him exposed to a whole new audience. Jimmy was unique in that he was the only one of the guest musicians who realized the sales potential of that record. It was just another session for the other folks. Jimmy was also unique in that he was the only one of the guests who wanted to rehearse before the recording session at Woodland. 
It is a shame that Monroe did not have the foresight to be a part of that project.

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## EggerRidgeBoy

I don't know if it was really a matter of the "long hair" and progressive attitudes - Bill did play with younger, long-haired musicians on occasion (although he often seemed compelled to make a joke about their hairstyles), and the mid-60s line-up of the Bluegrass Boys was, in an admittedly narrow context, a fairly progressive break from his earlier sound.  From what I have read (wish I could remember where, since without citing a reference this is just a half-remembered anecdote), Bill's well-documented pride wouldn't let him be simply a guest artist on a Nitty Gritty Dirt Band record. I believe he said something along the lines of "Those boys can play on one of my records, but I'm not going to play on theirs". (Again, that is a rough paraphrase of something I read a few years back - if I can track down the actual quote I'll post it).

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## J.Albert

"I'm sure Mr. Bill heavily regretted not participating in that project in retrospect..."

I wonder if Ralph Rinzler was still advising/managing Bill at the time. I'm sure Mr. Rinzler would have recommended that Bill participate -- perhaps he didn't know the offer had been extended. A shortsighted decision on Mr. Monroe's part, but not "out of his character", to his misfortune.

Look what the Circle Album did for Doc Watson's career. Ironically, Doc at first had it in his mind to reject The Dirt Band's offer because they wanted only him (and not Merle as well), but Merle advised his father to go anyway because of what it might do for his (their) career. Good advice on Merle's part, and Doc was wise enough to reconsider.

I believe Roy Acuff was not interested at first, but was persuaded to reconsider, again put off a bit by the "longhairs" of The Dirt Band.

I disagree with the post regarding the musicianship of The Dirt Band, as not being up to Monroe's "standards". They were a quite capable group of guys.

- John

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## f5loar

While Bill had made up his cold war with Flatt by this time (where was Flatt on the late 1971 project?) he had not been so keen to be on a project with Scruggs and Maybell taking the spotlight as he still held onto the cold war with Scruggs.  I think Bill's exact words when asked to participate was "why that ain't no part of nothin' "   Ralph Rinzler was not managing Monroe at this time. 
A lot of this is in Smith's book and for anyone who wants to learn more about the man and his music it is a must read as well as Tom Ewing's book and several other Bluegrass Boys books. They all give an insight into the man and the music.  He never was mean towards me!

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## evanreilly

> He never was mean towards me!


I think Bill liked me too; he stated, in front of me to another mandolin player. that I was a "... pretty good mandolin player".  He also invited me to his farm and had me onstage with him a few times.  
If Bill thought you were serious about 'HIS' music, he was pretty easy to get along with.

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## allenhopkins

If I remember some of the discussion around the time _WTCBU_ came out, Jimmy Martin expressed praise for the Dirt Band, and John McEuen in particular -- in his particular left-handed way, contrasting the Dirt Band's musicianship and ability to back him up, with his own banjo player, who he said was "probably asleep somewhere."

I'm wondering if this was in the Chet Flippo _Rolling Stone_ article about the album, or in some similar in-depth review.  In any case, I haven't been able to find a specific reference in Smith's Monroe biography, to Monroe's reaction to an invitation to play on _WTCBU_.  It's not indexed, in any case, so I've been reading through the section covering 1970-71 or so; haven't found anything.

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## almeriastrings

From all my reading of him (and regrettably only once meeting him), also quite a bit of time I spent with the late Carl Story (who knew him very well) Bill Monroe comes over as a very, very complex individual, and also a pretty uncompromising one when he felt he was right. The story about not swerving to get out of the way of an oncoming car that led to his accident is a prime example. He was also, in many ways, very open minded and progressive. Good examples of that would be how open he was to 'northern' musicians joining the BG boys, and his considerable respect for black musicians (such as Arnold Schultz and others) - not entirely typical of the time. He could be very patient and kind, but equally, he could clearly be a rather ornery old cuss when it suited him. Certainly a man of powerful character who plowed his own furrow. The fact remains that he was without question a giant of the mandolin, and a fantastic composer of wonderful music. Those who try to paint him as a one-dimensional caricature should listen to 'My Last Days on Earth', 'Southern Flavor', 'Old Dangerfield', 'Come Hither to Go Yonder' and 'Old Ebenezer Scrooge' just for starters. Then there are the songs.....There is real depth, taste and creative genius there. I have also read the same story about declining to take part in the 'Circle' album, but cannot recall which book it is in.

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## Mike Bunting

We can't forget this side of Bill.

or this

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## Ivan Kelsall

From *Almeira* - _"....Bill Monroe comes over as a very, very complex individual, and also a pretty uncompromising one..."_.
If you read either of the 2 main books about Bill Monroe,"The Bill Monroe Reader" or "Can't You Hear Me Callin'" you'll know that to be true. Re.his unwillingness to participate in the WTCBU recording,i read the same thing that Lynn D. & Evan Reilly mention.
   Complex & stubborn possibly sum up Bill Monroe very well,& praise the Lord that he was just like that. If Bill Monroe hadn't stubbornly stuck to 'his music' the way 'he' played it,we might have had watered down 'pseudo-grass' a long time before now,& many of the recordings of his that we cherish,might never have seen the light of day if he'd have 'gone commercial',
                                                                                                                                                          Ivan

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## Fretbear

Tony Conway, a Kentuckian that Bill trusted, played a bit part in rescuing his career from financial disaster once he started to work for him. Bill had this idea that everyone who got near Bluegrass wanted to "steal his music" which was a ridiculous idea as there was precious little money to had from it if they did (at least the way he ran it) as his own balance sheet was showing as his finances began to implode. There is much time given in "Can't You Hear Me Callin'" to the atrocious and inappropriate ways that Bill handled money, business and people, and Tony Conway made it his business to turn that around for him. Turning down high-profile recording gigs like WTCBU because of hairstyle preference and over-weaning pride is a classic example of these blunders. If people are really interested in WSM and his legacy they should read all the books that have been published about him and his life, including Bob Black's excellent "Come Hither to Go Yonder: Playing Bluegrass with Bill Monroe" and Butch Robins' "What I Know About What I Know" as well as the Smith and Ewing books. There is a story in Butch's book about a day-off mix-up(!) that is worth the price of the book alone.

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## ralph johansson

> While Bill had made up his cold war with Flatt by this time (where was Flatt on the late 1971 project?) he had not been so keen to be on a project with Scruggs and Maybell taking the spotlight as he still held onto the cold war with Scruggs.  I think Bill's exact words when asked to participate was "why that ain't no part of nothin' "   Ralph Rinzler was not managing Monroe at this time. 
> A lot of this is in Smith's book and for anyone who wants to learn more about the man and his music it is a must read as well as Tom Ewing's book and several other Bluegrass Boys books. They all give an insight into the man and the music.  He never was mean towards me!


The truth is that Monroe made up with Scruggs before Flatt. He invited the Revue to Bean Blossom in 1970 and also appeared with Scruggs on TV that same year.

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## ralph johansson

> Making this comment, and preparing for "verbal castration"!! as well as enlightenment: I have ALWAYS been aware of Bill Monroe and his influence on Music, but have only been more interested, due to this forum, the mandolin, Bluegrass, etc., and I must admit he seems to come off to me, in my opinion, as a rather gruff, grumpy individual! While I have not read the biographies about him, (I have viewed "High and Lonesome" though!), I am somewhat puzzled as to what to think of Mr Monroe! I have read about his disdain and feelings of betrayal, etc for other Bluegrass performers, (i.e. Flatt and Scruggs, Ralph Stanley, etc.), his attitudes toward other performers, comments concerning  his rumored womanizing, his use of his band members to perform manual labor,etc. for him and his personal property, the claims of composing songs that he may actually have not written, (i.e. Footprints In The Snow), etc., etc., etc.,.....please can someone enlighten me? While I DO love Traditional Bluegrass and am aware of his talent and contribution to Music in general, and feel that he is very worthy of many of the accolades and recognition that he has received, but, is my Image of the Man WAY off base??


Monroe did not claim authorship to Footprints in the Snow.

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## Gary Hedrick

Complex???  That's a vast understatement...a lot to the man both in his music and in his personal makeup. He was driven by many different "fears". He was also a real set of contradictions......books could be written on the many different sides to the fellow (and they have!!!)  Having seen him up close for many years he is both simple and complex at the same time. I'd suggest that many of these discussions center upon expectations that if you are a "founder" of a music.....the "greatest" mandolin player of all time...a muscial wunderkin etc that you must be beyond the typical human......he wasn't.....he put his pants on the same the rest of us do. Don't put a deity status on him and then get disappointed because parts of him don't measure up to that standard. 

I just listen to his music. I like and dislike some of it. I have fond memories of him and  some memories of being intimidated out my gourd by him. I am honored to have known him.

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## JeffD

I don't think it has ever been possible to become a successfull innovator about whom several books are written, without torking off a few people. I liken Bill Monroe to Frank Lloyd Wright.

What an honor, to be controversial and both loved and hated, long after you have passed on. Its a worthy goal.

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## Fretbear

The first recordings of his that I heard were his 30's Bluebird sides with brother Charlie. It was (and still is) some of the smoothest, sweetest and most curiously exciting instrumental and vocal music I had ever heard. 

Bob Dylan has called them some of the best music recordings that have ever been made, bar none. 

When I first got hold of "The High Lonesome Sound" LP, I remember thinking that I should like it alot more than I actually did, and was actually in denial about it for a long time, and would defend him against anyone's attempt to find any fault whatsoever with his music. It wasn't until alot later that I had to admit that I had never really liked much of his post-Monroe Brothers' lead singing, with the exception of some of his amazing tenor gospel work, like on the "I Saw the Light" LP.

It wasn't until I read what Tony Rice said in his autobiography about his feeling that Bill had "kind of blown his voice out" (a topic that Rice is intimately familiar with) in the Fifties that I was able to more realistically appreciate everything that he did in a more balanced light. Every note that has ever been or ever will be played or sung by any Bluegrass band from now until the end of time bears his Kentucky "Maker's Mark."

"She ain't no Picasso-o-o, She ain't no Bill Monroe,
She plays steel guitar with history, but she looks like Rock & Roll..."

Eric Anderson-"Wild Crow"

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## J.Albert

"Bill Monroe comes over as a very, very complex individual, and also a pretty uncompromising one when he felt he was right."

How many folks here have ever tried reading Ayn Rand's "The Fountainhead"?

Rand's character Howard Roark was of course fictional, but if ever in this world there was a real-life version of Roark (with his uncompromising vision) -- it was Bill Monroe.

That's why he may be the most important figure in American music that has ever lived….

- John

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## swampstomper

> That's why he may be the most important figure in American music that has ever lived….


Well, I'm as much a Monrovian as the next picker, but this is somewhat over the top... how about Stephen Foster, Charles Mingus, Cole Porter, Duke Ellington, Miles Davis.... the list could go on.

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## Mike Bunting

> Well, I'm as much a Monrovian as the next picker, but this is somewhat over the top... how about Stephen Foster, Charles Mingus, Cole Porter, Duke Ellington, Miles Davis.... the list could go on.


And Louis Armstrong.

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## Ivan Kelsall

*Swampy* - I understand your point,but the musicians you mention simply 'added to' existing musical genres.Bill Monroe began a whole NEW genre _of his own_,Bluegrass Music.Very,very few people have done that - in fact i can't think of one _single other_ person who has done that. Most 'new' forms of music simply being 'add-ons' to existing forms. In that respect,i agree entirely with J.Albert,& in fact i've said the same thing in many previous threads re.Bill Monroe.Not only was BM one of the greatest innovators in _American_ music,he gained a following across the globe for Bluegrass music.
    BM's decision not to participate in the WTCBU recording may have been a wrong decision financially,but for him,it was more than finance that was at stake,it was his 'vision of himself' as participating in a recording with a 'bunch of hippies' that mattered most. He was certainly not a man to sell himself for pure gain. Ihave to admit that i'm very much the same way,some things i'll go along with & some things i'll just say no way !. Years back i turned down a job as Banjo player in a very successful UK band because they used an electric Bass Guitar & not a Bass Fiddle. For me Bluegrass is acoustic music,pure & simple.I'll listen to bands with elec.instruments,but i want no part of playing in one - but maybe that's just me,
                                                                                                                      Ivan :Chicken:

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## swampstomper

Well, not to get into a loooong discussion, but Monroe didn't invent out of whole cloth. He took elements that were already there (Monroe Brothers, Skillet Lickers, Charlie Poole, field hollers and other African-American styles, western swing [where do you think the multiple fiddle idea came from??] etc.) and created a personal vision. So-called "blue grass music" went through many stages also, as he was always innovating. He certainly was not afraid to incorporate the best from his sidemen, Scruggs, Keith and K Baker may be the best examples, but what about Flatt, Martin, Mayfield? I wouldn't say that Monroe was more "original" or promethian than several in my list above.

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## Jmoss

> ... but, is my Image of the Man WAY off base??


Bondage, you just never met him and therefore rely on these books which may have an agenda of their own.  He might have been different to different people, but I liked him.  I never found him mean.  He went so far out of his way for people.  He gave me 10 or 12 tunes that he wrote to use on my albums. These had either not be recorded yet, or never even copyrighted.  These were just his musical thoughts that had taken tune form.  I never asked him for that, he just showed me the tunes and said, here is a number that would sound good on your album. I was lucky to have recorders on me or nearby when that happened or I would have forgotten them by the next day.   

If you were interested in his music, Bluegrass... the way he played it, then you were in.  Bill bought me a meal on more than one occasion.  He was kind of quiet.  So when he said something, it got your attention.  I had to negotiate contracts with him... and learned tunes from him...   You had to be on your toes and not say anything that didn't fly in his world, but then, I was from Northern California.  The general feeling was that we were all drug addicts or gay.  Back there in the 1970s the folks standing around you would most likely not think you were so great if you were back in their states... down south.  Bill and Baker on the other hand had been all over the world and were more understanding toward different cultures.   So I can't fault the guy as he was very honest and kept his word in my dealings with him.  

And being a traditionalist, I thought it was a great statement when at Bean Blossom he fired the McLain Family for not playing traditional sounding Bluegrass.  He called them vaudeville.   They were pretty sweetsy sounding. I mean, it is his festival, he wanted to make a statement... and by god that's what he did.  :-)

Jim Moss

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## JeffD

I am loving it.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Quite correct *Swampy*,but it was Bill Monroe who _had it in his head what he thought his band_ _should sound like_. Othe country musicians 'might' have thought of doing it,in the same way that maybe several folk _thought_ of inventing the 'light bulb',but only one guy actually did it - Thomas Edison,so,it's _his_ invention. We all know that it wasn't Bill Monroe himself who 'named' the music Bluegrass,so i wonder what he thought it was,simply another form of 'rural country music',an off-shoot of Old Timey music or ......?.
*JeffD* - Stop sittin' on the fence & dive in !!!, :Chicken: 
                                                                       Ivan :Wink:

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## almeriastrings

> maybe several folk _thought_ of inventing the 'light bulb',but only one guy actually did it - Thomas Edison,so,it's _his_ invention.


I believe that was actually Joseph Swan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swan

Back to Monroe...  :Mandosmiley:

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## pefjr

> That's why he may be the _most important figure_ in _American music_ that has _ever lived_.
> 			
> 		
> 
> - John


Now, I know it says in your profile, you are from CT, but when I read your statement above I thought, "hmm...this guy's from Texas making two tall boasts... and in one sentence." Then I re read and saw "may be", so I guess it's OK. Actually I don't agree he is even close, but I do like some of his music. :Grin:

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## Marty Henrickson

Bill Monroe is definitely the most important American musician I am thinking of RIGHT NOW.  That is a true statement just about all the time.

I must say, it is great to hear from those with first-hand knowledge of the man.  Thank you for chiming in, Mr. Moss.

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## Ivan Kelsall

*Almeria* - http://www.enchantedlearning.com/inv...ightbulb.shtml   I think it's down to who you believe invented the first 'real' light bulb of the type we use today.But we're off topic !, :Grin: 
                                                                                        Ivan :Mandosmiley:

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## Jmoss

> I must say, it is great to hear from those with first-hand knowledge of the man.  Thank you for chiming in, Mr. Moss.


I mean, Bill Monroe said if I recorded Tanyards and Real Foot Real that he would record an introduction which I could use as I saw fit.  So when my LP came out with all that landscape that LPs had, I had his words typeset for the back.  Of course, as you might expect in these situations the graphics artist got the wording ALMOST right. It was a girlfriend of mine so I let it slide.   When I went to CD for that album I used Bill's actual words... I dug out the cassette tape which he recorded his intro on and I just EQ'ed it and put that on the CD.   How many Big Biscuits of Bluegrass would ever do that for you?  

A lot of people don't know this, but at festivals like Bean Blossom, the band would ditch Monroe.  They would sometimes hide from him... so that they could have time to themselves I guess.  That happened at Bean Blossom.  Of course, I was glued to the guy.  I had either driven to or hitch hiked to Bean Blossom from California and I was not going to miss a chance to hang out with these cats.   It was at one of these times when Baker and whoever were spending some time at one of the camps, at Bean Blossom... after all of the shows... about midnight or so... that Monroe went looking to jam some.  He knew what was up and walked up to this back camp and saw Baker and at least one of the other band members there.  I was with him.  When he got within eye shot of them, you could hear the comments from the band members there...  SO could Monroe.  So he just as Baker something regarding business and then walked away toward the road near the back clearing there where the power lines are.   He looked at me with my fiddle case in my hand and said, why don't you get that out and lets play some.  So I did...  it took a few seconds for the shock to wear off, but we started playing.   Soon we had picked up a guitar player and we went at it for about 3 hours.  It was great.  That is where he first started showing me tunes for my albums.   In the dark about midnight at Bean Blossom. 

I could tell you a bunch of stories like this.  To me, he was not a grouchy guy at all.  You do have to keep in mind that he was from another time before my time and my time is most likely before many people on this list's time.  That is a lot of time back and you need to always be aware of the potential for communication breakdown.  I mean, how much is that to ask?  I am from the 1960s born in 1952.  The big musicians of my time would never speak to you.  So to have such easy access to this all time great... well... I can watch how I phrase things for that.  I mean, it is a different way of life.  Not my way of life.  So what?  Think about the day to day issues he had to deal with managing the Bluegrass Boys and getting gigs.    And there are some people out there who are just off the wall.  I mean, they say things that are beyond belief.    I ran into that in the 10 years I managed Frank Wakefield.  Not often, but they are there and you just seem to run into them when you don't expect it.  There were a hand full that were just there to run interference.   Ramp that up to a band like Monroe's add to that his problems with his eyes and his quiet nature and you have some issues that might give the impression that you are grumpy.  That might be what people saw from a distance who thought he was as Bondage stated.  You just had to get past that and walk up and meet the guy.   Then it was, "Yes sir, what can I do for you?"

Jim Moss

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## Big Joe

Bill was certainly a complex character to say the least.  I think that is a good thing and fairly normal for highly intelligent people.  Bill was always kind and wonderful to me and nearly everyone.  Certainly there were periods of his life where he may have been a fairly tough and austere individual.  That was not unusual for those who lived and worked through the Great Depression.  Even the little things we take for granted were major expenses to him.  When he started, life was tough and money was nonexistent.  Many from this era were considered hard, but truly were just reflecting the times in which they were raised.

Bill would come to the shop occasionally.   He would tell me to grab a mandolin and he would play a bit for me.  He would say that I "needed to get it down real good".  It was his "gift to me".  He would expect me to play it back right then.  It was an honor to have him to that.  

I have been honored to know many of the great musicians of the last number of decades from many genres of music.  In nearly every case the musician or artist has been very good and kind to me and those around me.  Many have a "stage personality" that has nothing to do with who they are in person.  While most were quite eclectic in many ways, they were all great experiences.  The same is true with Bill.

Bill seemed to either like someone or not.  If he liked you he treated you very well.  If he did not like you, he had no use for you so there was not reason to bother with you.  That is not an unusual trait.  However, it can be viewed as mean or hard to get along with.  I never experienced that with Bill.  I did see a couple occasions he did not want to be bothered and could be a bit elusive, but usually he relished a crowd and he certainly dominated the audience.  He was usually very approachable and friendly.

It was my joy to have the opportunity to know Bill Monroe and a host of other incredible people.

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## Ivan Kelsall

From *Jim Moss* -_ " They would sometimes hide from him... so that they could have time to themselves I guess......."_.That's exactly what happened when Bill Monroe & the Boys played the 'Manchester Sports Guild' (MSG) over here in Manchester UK in June 1966. My band opened for them & Bill Clifton was on next. During the interval,after his first spot,Bill Monroe put his Mandolin in it's case & took it & stood over near the bar in the corner of the room. Lamar Grier sat near the stage,but Richard Green,Peter Rowan & James Monroe disappeared. Having learned in latter years that Bill Monroe was a non-drinker,i suspect that the 'missing boys' went to the public bar downstairs for a drink. That was when i took the opportunity to speak to Bill Monroe & get his & Lamar Grier's autograph on the back of Bill's LP "Bluegrass Ramble".Unfortunately i didn't get the chance to obtain the autographs of the 3 others. As a 21 year old banjo player,3 years into it,all i knew about Bill Monroe was that 'he had a Bluegrass band'.I knew nothing of his role as 'the father of Bluegrass music'. I wish i could have met him 100's of times more. I hold him in the very highest esteem for what he was & for what he did for Country music. 
   When i spoke to him,he was the very soul of courtesy & politeness.One thing though,you could tell that he was a 'no nonsense' type guy - polite,but firm & direct in what he said. It was certainly THE most memorable experience in 50 years of being involved in Bluegrass music,50 years of enjoying 'his' musical legacy,
                                                                              Ivan :Wink:

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## Bernie Daniel

Terrific thread!

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## neebee

This is a good thread.  My OP was soley about WTCBU, no intent to get argumentive about this or that.  There are some great personal stories about Big Mon.  Keep it positive!

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## Big Joe

Bill and Jimmy Martin were not considered "close friends".  Jimmy was not a fan of Bill's at all.  I understood it that there were just too many that might not get along.  However, I was not there so any information I have is just hearsay.  That's a fancy name for gossip.  He certainly could have been a great asset and the band for the album was more than capable of doing anything they wanted to do.  Sometimes a conglomerate project such as that can be a bit less than the sum of the individual parts.  Still, I loved the album and never felt anything was lacking by any means and the musicianship was pretty good for what was essentially a jam session.

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## swampstomper

"the musicianship was pretty good for what was essentially a jam session." That's what I was trying to say about the level. Whereas, when Monroe was in the studio he controlled things himself (not always with the best results -- the terrible mastering on "Master of BG" is a good example) but anyway it ending up sounding like HE wanted it. On someone else's product he couldn't control the outcome. Which is perhaps why he reportedly said they could maybe be on his project but he wasn't going to be on theirs.

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## Ivan Kelsall

*Big Joe* - From what i've read about the man,Jimmy Martin was as prickly a character as Bill Monroe was & maybe a bit too 'up-front' in his behaviour for some folks.That said,i love the guy's music. His recording, "Big & Country Instrumentals",is never far away from my record deck,& "Big Country" for me, is an all-time classic,(despite the drums !), :Disbelief: 
                                                                                                                              Ivan :Wink:

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## Big Joe

Jimmy, like Bill, was certainly a character and, like Bill, came from the same era and held somewhat similar ideas about who should lead their respective bands.  Jimmy was a bit more flamboyant than Bill, but his bands were still under his thumb.  Like Bill, Jimmy had some great musicians working with him.  While each were great in their own way, the musicians they surrounded themselves with certainly added to their greatness.

I knew Jimmy a bit.  Not as well as Bill, but just like Bill, Jimmy always treated me very nice and was a gentleman.  He was very clear on what he wanted and expected that to be the way it was done, but I don't see that as a problem.  Both were very colorful characters but still a real joy to have known.  I love Jimmy's music as much as Bill's.  They are just different musically.

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## mando_dan

Hey posters- thanks so much for telling us about your experiences!  My introduction to the bluegrass world occurred long after Mr. Monroe died so it's wonderful to hear these accounts of a such a challenging, fascinating, and talented artist.

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## AlanN

Oh yes, Bill could be obstinate or gracious, depending on the situation. I remember a workshop he did at a festival in the late 80's. Smallish crowd. A question came out: "Bill, isn't it true that bluegrass music was never the same after Lester and Earl left your band?" You could have heard a pin drop.

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## rockies

I saw and met Bill in Edmonton Alberta when he was I believe 84 years old. I had just finished reading the book " The Boss Man" about Bill and Muddy Waters and how their careeers paralleled one anothers. In the book it mentioned that Bill was very much from the "old school" and preferred the old fahioned terms of respect (ie. Mr Monroe )when dealing with strangers. I had purchased a CD and thought I would get him to autograph it. Everyone was yelling Bill, Bill Bill etc. He was on autopilot signing one after the other, I caught his eye and said quietly "Mr Monroe would you sign my CD" He immediately stopped and came over to me, asked my name, asked if I played and carried on a conversation with me to the chagrin of the others waiting. It was a great experience and I believe it was due to that term of respect using the "Mister Monroe".
Dave

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## pefjr

Interesting conversation. You mention BB, he is my neighbor, and very friendly. I have often wondered how some of these guys relate to each other. Vasser was playing with Jerry and Grisman in a band in the 70's yet when you see the pictures of that group it is clear that Vasser does not fit in, except musically. His hair is high on the head and combed slick(Vitalis look) and he is with a group of the drug culture.  :Laughing: They didn't stick long but the music they made is still very popular.

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## Ivan Kelsall

> "Bill, isn't it true that bluegrass music was never the same after Lester and Earl left your band?" You could have heard a pin drop.


  Cripes !!! - I bet steam was coming out of Bill Monroe's ears - THE question of all time NOT to ask Bill Monroe.
As i said above,i love Jimmy Martin's music,his style was his own & he wrote some great songs. He rather shot himself in the foot by being a tad ungracious to folk he should have been nice to at times,from what i've read. I have the DVD "King of Bluegrass" - well worth buying if you don't have it - & Jimmy despite his protestations to the contrary,was obviously very distressed by not being a 'member' of The Grand Ole Opry. IMO,despite his in your face character (at times) i think he deserved to be. Sorry to sort of sideline the OP thread,
                                 Ivan

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## Jmoss

A pin drop?   I am surprised you didn't hear a gun going off.
Them's Fight'n Words!  

Well, now you can see what I mean about some people.  How can you
blame the guy for being off when he gets a question like that from time to time.
Someone put that person up to it I am sure. Most people would have more
brain cells then to ask that kind of a question of Monroe himself.  Clearly,
this person had a chip on their shoulder about something.  

In 1974 I was in Denver Colorado at a festival... it turned out to be 
a very colorful experience for me.  Some good, some bad. 
I did get to take this GREAT picture of Baker flipping off Monroe.  Classic!
If I ever write a book I will dig that one out.  
Baker wanted to go off somewhere after their performance and Monroe
wanted him to stay near by.   Baker was having a hissy fit, you know...
turning around fast and stomping his feet... that kind of thing.  
And about that time I said "Baker, I want to take a picture".  
Baker said, "I'll give you a picture!"  :-)  
SOooo I have this photo of Monroe walking away to the right of frame
and about 5 feet behind him Kenny Baker is holding his fiddle by his belt line, 
glaring at Monroe.  
And... with his right hand holding his fiddle, he is flipping him off.  Classic! 
I printed one out on paper for Baker and titled it "The Best In Tension". 

The night we got there, I was with Kim... the girl in the Bean Blossom 1975 
photo pages, Monroe was on stage and had been on stage for a bit. 
Picture this, it is dark out. The stage has the Bluegrass Boys with Monroe
on it.  The audience is pretty good in size.  Everyone is listening to
Monroe's show.  What could be better for a summer night?   
Monroe starts to play Kentucky Mandolin. The audience is riveted...   
You can sense the magic in the air...   
Then some 20ish shirtless guy stands up and yells out at FULL VOICE, 
"Hey, Mike!  Over Here!  Mike!  Hey!"   

Monroe... stops in mid tune. 
He looks up slowly... and out into the audience at this guy.  

It was like that Twilight Zone where everything on the planet is frozen in time.

Total Quiet falls over the audience!

It was like that for what seemed an eternity.  However,
when I moved my gaze from Monroe to this guy... he had vanished
into thin air!  It was only 2 to 3 seconds... but poof!  Gone!  
It was like Monroe vaporized this guy!  :-) 
After a moment Monroe started Kentucky Mandolin again.  
This time Nobody said a word.  

Now...
The last story I would be wise to put in another post because
it will surely fail the censor's test here.  I would not want to
have this post taken down over a story about Jack Cook which 
involved my girlfriend at the time, Kim.  

So, if I post it, you had better read it fast...  
I have to think about this...   
Kim was a babe!  However, she wasn't perfect...
She hadn't been around the south much... and she 
thought Jack Cook was French because of his accent.
The story goes downhill from there.  :-)

...to be continued.  

Jim Moss

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## Marty Henrickson

:Popcorn:

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## Jim Yates

> Also, the musicianship of the backup band was not up to his standards. Just listen to Jimmy Martin chewing them out, you can imagine how Bill would have reacted. Now, playing duets with Doc, or reprising instrumentals with Vassar, I am sure he'd have been happy doing. That whole project is sub-par every time the backing musicians take a break. Luckily they hired an excellent bassman (Junior Huskey) or the whole thing would have fallen apart.


I have always admired the musicianship on this record.  When I heard Jimmy Martin telling John McEuen off, I was surprised that John decided to leave it on there, but I feel he is not playing below the level of the others on the record.  I can't understand calling John McEuen of Jimmy Fadden sub par musicians.

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## swampstomper

> I can't understand calling John McEuen of Jimmy Fadden sub par musicians.


I could perhaps have phrased this better. The NGDB did not have "blue grass time", an intangible that drives the music forward even on slow songs. I discovered this concept in the Trischka/Wernick "Masters of the 5-string Banjo" book, where they ask each profiled musician to define "bluegrass time". It's hard for me to imagine NGDB musicians working as Blue Grass Boys.

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## onassis

> The NGDB did not have "blue grass time", an intangible that drives the music forward even on slow songs.


This is a great point, IMO, and one of those things that make it difficult to play BG with people who, even if they're excellent musicians, aren't really 'grassers. There's a certain push from the bass, a pop to the rhythm guitar, crisp staccato of the mando chop that give the music propulsion and forward momentum, whatever the BPM. Very hard to define, but easy to recognize.

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## Fretbear

It's called "Drive"......Jimmy Martin and Flatt & Scruggs had as much in their music as anyone ever did. It's also one of those "get it" things. When I was a child my big brother put on a Flatt & Scruggs record, and I jumped up and down on the bed and was so excited I could barely contain myself. If that music leaves you cold or you just don't like it, then there's not much more to be said about it for you. If it does get you, it's the same thing.

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## poymando

> I have always admired the musicianship on this record.  When I heard Jimmy Martin telling John McEuen off, I was surprised that John decided to leave it on there, but I feel he is not playing below the level of the others on the record.  I can't understand calling John McEuen of Jimmy Fadden sub par musicians.


As I had mentioned in my earlier post, I don't think Jimmy was telling McEuen off. Rather, I think he was giving him a a poke in fun for missing his kick.

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## f5loar

What I heard Jimmy tell McEuen I've heard dozens of times backstage and sometimes on stage to many of the newer Sunny Mtn. Boys.  It's just Jimmy.  He wants it his way or it's the highway.  Was there more  Sunny Mtn. Boys then Bluegrass Boys?  I think so and in far less time.

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## Gary Hedrick

In the Jim Moss posting above"Monroe... stops in mid tune. 
He looks up slowly... and out into the audience at this guy. 

It was like that Twilight Zone where everything on the planet is frozen in time.

Total Quiet falls over the audience!"

This is EXACTLY what happen one night at Bean Blossom....night show.....drunk in the crowd shouting for a certain song....Uncle Pen I think....I'm in the control room looking out on the stage and suddenly time stops and then the man just leaves.....and voila' Bill starts to play another song...

Drunks were a real deal with him.......a really big deal with him .....sure made an impression on this young man......HE was not someone to be triffled with......just by pure force of presence....

One other interjection......I can remember him doing a cha-cha type of a chop on a song if he was really really peeved at the guitar player.....it was like an out of time smack up the side of the head to the guitar player.....and the look was intense....

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## swampstomper

A little off topic but still a good story -- Jim and Garys' story remind me of one night when I went to see the Seldom Scene at the Red Fox in Bethesda, this was before their move to the Birchmere, so must have been early 80's. Some drunk kept heckling John Starling, and after some attempts to placate him, Starling just quit in disgust. Walked off the stage and wouldn't come back. Hey, he had a good day job (Eyes, Ears, Nose, Throat and Wallet as Duffey said). So here is the Scene on stage with no guitarist with two more sets to play. Solution (more or less): Auldridge takes the guitar and Duffey decides he can still remember to play the dobro, which he hasn't touched for about 15 years. Duffey sings most of the leads and Auldridge has a few songs that are not in the Scene repertoire but which suit his very nice baritone voice. With Tom Gray holding it down, things are more-or-less together -- except for Duffey's wild attempts to play dobro. A fun evening anyway.

OK, back on topic...

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## Mandolin Mick

Maybe Mr. Bill wished them into the corn field? ...  :Smile:

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## Jmoss

> Now...
> The last story I would be wise to put in another post because
> it will surely fail the censor's test here.  I would not want to
> have this post taken down over a story about Jack Cook which 
> involved my girlfriend at the time, Kim.  
> 
> So, if I post it, you had better read it fast...  
> I have to think about this...   
> Kim was a babe!  However, she wasn't perfect...
> ...



I have been receiving emails regarding the outcome of this story. So I had
better not leave it hanging.  After giving it some thought I have decided
not to post it other than to say that it was pretty gross and resulted in
my getting yelled at.  Kim told on no uncertain terms that I was never to
leave her alone at a Bluegrass festival again.   I had left her in the stands
so I could go photograph Lester Flatt, backstage.  It was then
that Jack Cook came up and started a conversation with her.  This girl
was not easily offended, but what he said to her was gross.  This was
back just post 1960s when there was a widespread misunderstanding
of the young west coast people.  To see an attractive woman in a
tank top was more than some could handle.  I think this is why women
would hang out near Kenny Baker at these events. They would
feel safe around him.  So this is the story.  The actual words spoken
are not necessary other than to know that they would offend most
anyone in this day and age.  I realized that going forward I should
never leave an attractive woman alone at a festival.
It was a good lesson for me.  You wouldn't leave your mandolin,
guitar or fiddle out unattended.  

Jim Moss

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