# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Vega cylinder back

## Mike Buesseler

Well. I decided to start a new thread on this. This is about the same mandolin I was so excited about yesterday, but it's not about the strings. True to its reputation, this mandolin has a sunken area on its top, on the treble side, directly below (towards the outside edge of the mandolin) and in front (towards the neck) of he bridge.

I'm feeling a little sick about this. Someone added a shim under the treble end of the (probably not original) bridge, to compensate for the sinkage. I would estimate the sunken area to be about 3/16" deep. I held a straight edge along the top, first on the bass side, from bridge foot to edge. This area is slightly convex, actually. Looks normal. But, when I laid it across the treble half, the gap is about 3/16" under the straight edge.

Well, so now what? I wrote to the seller, asking for a total or partial refund. I will give him time to respond. I asked for the partial refund, hoping this problem can be fixed. Anyone (Gail Hester?) got any experience with these sunken tops? Doesn't look like an easy fix to me.

The other problem is not so bad. I've got a significant buzz on the G string course. I'm sure this can be fixed, first by taking down a few high frets (this is a very relative 'high'--these frets are [/I]really[I] small to start with) and maybe raising or replacing the bridge.

Perhaps I should have posted in the builders section, but for continuity's sake, I thought I'd start here.

I actually think the mandolin can be made more playable as it is with a better fitting (shimmed) bridge and some fret work. But, I'd like to know if the top can be raised in any way, because I do not expect the seller to come through. Thanks, as always....

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## David Newton

Mike, can you run your finger inside to the area that is sunken? What do you feel. Maybe the main transverse brace has come loose at it's end. That would be a pretty straightforeward repair. I'm just chatting with you until someone who has more knowledge of this one comes along.

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## Mike Buesseler

Thanks, Dave. I feel like someone is holding my hand until the doctor shows up.  

I should have changed the title of this topic. Or posted in the builder's thread. Anyway, I got out my dental mirror and flashlight, after feeling no problem with a loose brace. Things look solid in there. I don't know how the top could be this sunken, and not have that brace loose, but it's tight.

I tried taking a picture, but it's really tough (with my camera) to get it. Maybe I'll mess with that some more. Someone's going to ask, anyway. In the meantime, thanks very much for your concern. I'll survive this. I've been playing the mandolin for awhile. Where it doesn't buzz, it's really nice. If I can fix that buzz--looks like a couple of _low_ frets, not high ones...and raise the action a teeny bit, I think I can live with the wowzie top. Playability above all else, for me...Fingers crossed.

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## Mike Buesseler

This is a pretty lousy photo, but it's the best I can do for now. I hope it shows the degree and location of the warped top.

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## Jim Garber

Oh, man! I knew it. I am so sorry to hear that. 

I had emailed the same seller and asked if there was any top warpage and he said no. Of course he also said that he hadn't noticed the finish crack in the back either that was quite obvious on the photo.

Mike, I don't know the price you settled on, but if there is significant warpage I would send it back and buy the one from Charles. it is an upgrade from the 202 anyway, unless you prefer the mahagony or get a better deal.

BTW Peter Langdell at Rigel used to fix these but as I recall it was somewhat costly as it is a lot of work. Sort of depends on the extent of the warp. 

Jim

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## Mike Buesseler

My thoughts exactly, Jim. I'm just waiting this out.

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## Gail Hester

Mike, sorry to hear about this. #I was looking forward to pictures under better circumstances. #Ive never had one of these apart but the bracing is rather complex being a combination of diagonal and transverse braces. #I dont see how this could happen without there being a problem with a brace. #After looking at the one I have here, I would want to remove the fretboard and the top to fix it. #Anything that can be built can be fixed but its going to be allot of work. #You may get more feedback (someone with more experience with these) if you have the moderator move this to the builder section.

Note: I have modified this post to eliminate my strings on first impression that there was X-bracing, there is not and I apologize for any confusion.

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## Jim Garber

> I dont see how this could happen without there being a problem with a brace.


As I told Mike in our private emails prior to his buying this one, this is the number one concern with these Vegas. I think the general culprit is a combination of the standard available mandolin strings being too heavy and various climatic conditions possibly loosening the braces. I think you will find it rarer to find one without this problem.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

BTW here is the seller's first email to me (before I knew that Mike was interested):



> Hi Jim, Well its in very good condition, absolutly no repairs that i know of. I have not done any since I have had it for over 10 years now. It plays and sounds great. No warps or cracks. small repair on the very edge of the pickguard, just a re-glue, about 1/4 of an inch. Other than that, shes a beauty..With original case.


Oh well...

IMHO: I don't think he was trying to pull something, just not very observant or knowledgeable.

Jim

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## brunello97

Mike,

You may be self-critical of your photography, but that is a nice looking spruce top. And the purfling line is sweet. I'm with Jim on the return-to-sender idea. There is no reason to cotton such look-the-other-way salesmanship.

BTW, I've never owned a Vega (though I wish) but I think I have owned a version of the chair in the background.

Best of luck on the return/repurchase.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> Someone added a shim under the treble end of the (probably not original) bridge, to compensate for the sinkage.


Here is a photo the seller sent me. I prob would not have noticed the shim either except Mike did with mandolin in hand. Hard to tell anything sometimes from photos, esp subtle stuff.

BTW if the braces are all right, this sinkage is prob not horrible. My CB is prob a lot worse and it is playable.

Jim

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## atetone

Yeah, that's a real shame, but as you said it is not totally unexpected.
Too bad because the from the #pics of the mandolin it #looks like it is in really good condition.
If not for the sinkage it looks like a great example of a cylinderback.
That is far too nice a mandolin to be left with that sinkage.
Maybe it is not you at this time MikeB but sooner or later that mandolin deserves to be put right.

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## David Newton

Mike
I know we're dancing around the problem, not being there to handle the mandolin, but this is a good way to help diagnose the problem. If you can rig a small light bulb on a loose wire, place it inside the mandolin, about under the bridge. You have to loosen at least the center two pair of strings. Then turn the lights off in the room and see if the light will show through the top wood and show the shadow of the bracing. You may have to cover the soundhole to shield the light. Rig your camera for no-flash photo, and take a picture of the top. This has to be done quickly, so as not to heat up the insides too much. Compare the bracing with where the sinkage is.

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## Mike Buesseler

All of you should have the experience of posting something like I did here today, then go out (to a concert--our own Growling Old Men). To come home just now and find all these sympathetic and helpful messages is really heartwarming. *Thank you all.* 

So, having said that...well, ####, I guess.  Unfortunately, among my many emails when I got home, there were none from Mr Vega Salesman (I won't give his name. He could be out of town. I will give him the benefit of the doubt awhile longer).

Jim Garber and I did discuss this mandolin before I bought it, and we both agreed it seemed like a good one. In Jim's photo, you can see that whitish stuff on the base of the bridge. I asked specifically about that. He told me it was 'polish,' which in fact some of it was. But, that's where the shim is glued on under the bridge. 

Now that I have the mandolin, I can sort of see the top warpage. My seller mentioned that the edge of the pickguard had 'curled up' at one time, but had been repaired. The 'curling' as far as I can see, is the warping of the top, which most definitely has NOT been repaired. 

What really confuses me about this warping is that I've looked inside and FELT inside. The braces seem very solid. I can't figure out what causes (not that it really matters, I suppose) this on Vega CBs. 

Jim, your theory about too heavy strings leaves me some doubt. Paul Hostetter (I think) once wrote here that there weren't any choices in mandolin strings until recently; that all strings were sort of heavy back in the day. Besides, the warpage is out away from the bridge foot. Wouldn't it be more likely _under_ the bridge? When you see how close to the edge the top curls up, it just doesn't seem possible, and especially since the braces seem intact (I will check that again, Dave). 

Anyway, all this is mostly speculation. I'm going to give the seller a little more time, probably call him on the phone. If he's disappeared or does not reply, I think this can be salvaged two ways. The first seems drastic--removing the top, as Gail Hester suggests. I'll have to let an expert decide that one for me. The other choice is to have a carefully fit bridge custom made to compensate for the warping. I could live with either, but not sure I can afford the first. 

There is the fret problem, as well. I can see that the best solution there is a fret job. These frets are LOW. And so is the action, because the bridge is a bit low, for obvious reasons.

I can't even think of a lesson to pass on from this. I did all the 'checking out' of this guy and this mandolin I felt was reasonable. I actually recommended him to the Cafe to sell another item and I saw that he did post an ad...again, I'd rather not mention the specifics until this is resolved. In his add, he said "A good friend recommended that I advertise here (thanks, Mike--(_me)_)" How convincing of his sincerity was THAT?

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## Bill Snyder

> I actually recommended him to the Cafe to sell another item and I saw that he did post an ad...again, I'd rather not mention the specifics until this is resolved. #In his add, he said "A good friend recommended that I advertise here (thanks, Mike--(_me)_)" #How convincing of his sincerity was THAT?


With that information it takes all of 20 seconds to find the ad.

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## Mike Buesseler

This had occurred to me, Bill, but last time I looked, I didn't see the ad. I figured he'd sold his item, or pulled the ad. I guess I missed it...I have no intention of slandering this person--at least until I've given him time to make a fair response to my complaint. And, even if he fails, all I want anyone to know is what happened to me.

I'm not really angry about this deal, just a little sad, disappointed...and a little _more_ broke. Looks like I'm going to have to sell something, and I'll still be in the hole.

Nevertheless, I like what Atetone said, "That is far too nice a mandolin to be left with that sinkage. Maybe it is not you at this time MikeB but sooner or later that mandolin deserves to be put right."

It really is a very nice mandolin and Atetone is exactly right. All these old instruments are in a state of steady decline--if they are getting any playing at all. Somewhere in it's life, someone has to sort of rescue each one and turn it's fate around. Ideally, that should happen when someone buys it _knowing it's condition, and at a price reflective of the restoration or repair needed._ That didn't exactly happen here. I'm not sure I can afford to rescue this one, or not. That depends upon what it's going to cost me, obviously, and I don't have the expertise to determine that. I hope to post some better pictures, so maybe one of our esteemed luthiers will give me an estimate and be willing to take on the job. I'd also like to post good photos of the problem with this instrument because we are all hearing that this is common among Vega CBs. It would have helped me _immensely_ to know what I was supposed to be looking for. I did know that a lot of these instruments had "warped tops" but I could not see any evidence in the photos the seller provided, nor did he admit to any when I asked him about it on the phone. 

Yesterday, a friend of mine stopped by just after I had opened the box and was examining the mandolin. My friend is legally blind--macular degeneration. So, I put his hand on the _upper_ bout and then moved it to the lower bout and he almost jumped back when he felt that "dip" in the top. My 15 year-old step-daughter who knows next to nothing about mandolins, took one look and said, "The top is smushed in!" So, it's hard for me to believe that the seller wasn't aware of the issue.

As I wait this one out, any luthiers who are reading this: I'm wide open to suggestions and estimates of costs to repair/restore this mandolin. There is still a lot of magic in it for me. I would appreciate recommendations or referrals to a luthier who can and will do the job. I think it can be made playable with a customized bridge and some fret work--let's say replacement of _all_ frets. These are really low. OTOH, I would prefer to put the top back in order, but don't even know how to start on that one.

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## Mike Buesseler

Oh, FWIW, I did ask the seller if I could have an "approval period." He said, "Sure, but I'm certain you will be happy with this mandolin." Anyway, how much is a verbal agreement worth if I can't even get him to reply to me now? 

Just wanted people to know I was following recommended protocol.

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## David Newton

Mike, when I sell an instrument, and I think this is true of most humble luthiers, I stay right there, online, at the phone, waiting for immediate feedback from my customer. 48 hour approval period is normal, almost assumed, unless you state "no returns". If you've tried contacting him in the same way you were dealing with him beforehand, and he has gone missing, I don't think you need be making any apologies at this point. It is time for the seller to step up. The only recourse you have is his reputation, he either has it or he doesn't.

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## Jim Garber

I emailed the seller and he replied that the CB was sold. He is there, I hope he is not avoiding Mike and will deal honestly with him. I agree with Dave in Tejas that the ball is in his court and he should at least contact Mike and work out the details. He did agree to the approval period.

I wonder if the top can be rebraced after some sort of humidity treatment. I had a vintage bowlback that was worked on in that way. There was some sinkage and the luthier put it in a bag with some form of humidity for a considerable time and worked it back to a flat state. It plays very nicely now.

I had another with a warped crack that was fixed by another luthier in a similar way.

Jim

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## atetone

Mike these Vegas often have a "waviness" in that area and sometimes some finish cracking occurs from the points of the inlaid pickguard. The tops are very thin and my personal assumption is that the inlaid pickguard contributes to a general weakness in that area.
The cylinderback that Gail posted pics of is mine and if I remember correctly there is a very, very slight waviness going on that you can't really see but you can feel if you run your fingers along there and a slight finish crack that Gail and I decided was harmless so we left it alone.
I also have a 1920 Vega flatback, canted top, oval hole, with the identical inlaid pickguard that shows no signs of any sinkage but I am keeping a close watch on it just in case. It is a concern for me, knowing that it could start to happen.
Your Vega on the other hand is unfortunately in a more advanced state of top sinkage.
That is not a slight waviness. It is abundently obvious.
It might not get any worse and can be compensated for with a custom bridge but as you have stated, the price should have reflected that.
I don't know what you paid for it but obviously you feel that you paid too much considering the problem and don't feel that you got your moneys worth.
This has happened to me a couple of times and I know that it is a great dissapointment.
You have a right to be dissapointed with this one and should try to either return it or receive some compensation for its condition.
Maybe the seller will agree and will do one or the other but you should give him some time to respond. He might not be receiving your attempts at contact for some reason.
I would give him some benefit of the doubt for a few days.
Hopefully he will respond and do the right thing.

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## Mike Buesseler

Thanks, again, everyone. I am doing all the above. I tried calling him on cell phone, where he said he could be reached, "ANYTIME." Except now, apparently. JGarber emailed him this morning and got a quick reply. I got nuttin.

Stay tuned....

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## Mike Buesseler

I think it's only fair of me to keep this story running until it's resolved or all hope is lost. 

After emails from JGarber and me, plus two unanswered phone calls (made from two different phones), I got an email reply from my seller, offering to 'make it right.' Now I'm just waiting to see how or if he gets my money back. I am, of course, ready to pay to ship it back. There is hope....

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## Mike Buesseler

Well, it's been an interesting weekend. My seller says he'll get my money back to me, but doesn't say when...something about his funds being "tied up." I'm giving him time, though. What else can I do?  

While I have this mandolin, I thought I'd put down some of my theories and feelings about it--for archival purposes, at least.

This mandolin is pretty playable over the first 5 frets. And when I play it there, I am blown away! It is so responsive and has the voice of an angel. Plenty loud for anything I'd ever use if for. If you ever get an opportunity to play one of these, take it! You won't forget the experience.

I do not believe the 'cylinder' is carved, as some have suggested. Sure looks bent to me--no end grain run-out anywhere. It would take--and waste--a lot of wood to carve this shape. 

And, my theory about the top warping, which is so prevalent in these mandolins is this: It is the inlayed pickguard. I agree completely with Atetone. You carve out an area from an already thin top, glue a piece of plastic into it, give those two very different materials (the wood and plastic) 90 years, or so, of uneven expansion and shrinking, you get exactly what I have here. All the shrinking I've heard about is in the treble side of the top, right under that pickguard. Why some don't seem to do this just suggests they were better taken care of, or lived in more even climates. This is, of course, JMO, and it really doesn't change anything knowing what caused it. Maybe some luthier, thinking about inlaying a pickguard--or anything else--into the top of a mandolin will give pause, and rethink it. 

That's my $.02 worth. Oh...and my $1250 blunder. Hoping to get that back soon, and then find me another Vega CB with a flat top. There is a gorgeous model 205 Brazilian RW for sale in the classifieds and I write this, but it's a little out of my budget...well, way out, actually. But, oh my aching MAS!

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## Jim Garber

Mike:
Good luck on this. 

BTW I don't think I have heard anyone who said that these CB's had their backs carved. I think the consensus was that they were bent.

When Rigel built their CB copy they did carve it. 

Jim

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## Mike Buesseler

Actually, Jim, I read that at Bob Devellis' wonderful website on Vega CBs...but, I think you are right, he has changed his position on this. It's still up there, though, so I thought I'd make sure it got in print again.

I wonder if anyone here ever got to play one of Rigel's CB repros?

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## danb

I played Jimmy G's rigel vega-cback tribute mandola. A very fine instrument

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## Bob DeVellis

Mike:

I now see that the suggestions I made in the other thread were already made here. My bad for replying before checking this thread. Re the carved back issue -- Icame across a quote from a luthier/repair person who claimed that they were definitely carved and I quoted him on my webpage (which hasn't been updated in ages, I'm afraid). But I totally concur with the prevailing view that these were bent, not carved. Now, the Rigel copies may well have been carved but the originals were bent. Also, most of the people who have made copies, as discussed on this board, also bend the backs (sometimes as a single operation after joining the two pieces and sometimes bending before joining). Sorry if the web page has caused any confusion.

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## Mike Buesseler

Hey, Bob, almost everything you write _clears up_ confusion. I think Rigel _did_ carve their repro CB model. So, there is reason for confusion. Pete Langdell must have thought they were carved, or that a carved back would be, in some way, superior. 

At the moment, I'm a little more interested in the sunken top than the bent back. Such a beautiful, beautiful design with this often fatal flaw: The Inlaid Pickguard (which is only my own theory why they warp, btw).

Come to think of it, don't a lot of bowlback mandolins have inlaid pickguards? Are they prone to warp, too?

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## dunbarhamlin

Joining before or after bending back presents problems (joint needs protecting from heat if trad glues used for former, and jigging required to joint and join the bent halves for the latter) as well as new bending forms (a normal length bending iron isn't long enough) so since Rigel were used to carving instruments anyway and blanks needed wouldn't be much different in size than a Gibson style instrument I think it would have made sense to use their tried and true construction techniques.

I've wondered about the structural impact of an inlayed plastic scratch guard. Haven't tried doing it yet, but I'm toying with alternatives (including using rolled horn or burl instead of plastic and going very thin - veneer depth only)

Steve

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## Jim Garber

I am still not sure about the theory that the inlaid pickguard causes the warpage of the top. For instance, Martin flat mandolins have similarly structured top with cant and inlaid pickguard and yet there seem to be a lot less of those with sunken or warped tops. I can see that if Vega used thinner tops than other makers, or did not brace the tops strongly enough, but I cant understand how the pickguard would have that much effect on the top, whether it be plastic or any other material. In any case, the inlaid pickguard on my Vega looks mighty thin.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is something to make Mike feel better. This is my Vega 202 with super-warped top. The previous owner had shimmed this bridge as well to compensate for the warp. I have never tried to tune this to pitch, tho I amy try it now that I have it out. Pretty scary, eh?

One thing I noticed is that it is very difficult to take a good photo of this warp. Mine is pretty dramatic. I took quite a few pics at different angles but in person it is quite obvious.

Jim

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## Mike Buesseler

Nice photo, Jim. I've got to try getting a better one myself. It is very tough, but I'll try a position like you used and mess with the lighting. My warp pattern is a little different ( a sharper dip right near the left edge, using your photo for reference). Otherwise, very similar...under that pickguard. 

Mine came tuned almost to pitch, with light strings, so I didn't hesitate to tune 'er up. If yours is at all playable, I'd suggest you do the same. Even if only a few notes fret true, you are in for something wonderful. You'll want to fix that mandolin. I want mine restored (or replaced, would be fine  ) BADLY after hearing it and looking at it hanging on my wall. Sinking or no, these are extraordinary instruments.

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## Jim Garber

I did own one of these. In fact, it was my second mandolin -- I traded a bowlback for it. Played it for some time but I was in a 5 piece band and I could not hear myself. I wanted a Gibson, so I sold it to my bandmate who still has it. I offered to buy it back from him but he likes it. As I recall it was not warped.

This photo was from an early band shot from about 1977.

Jim

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## Mike Buesseler

Cool! I bet you don't look a day older.   No wonder we like those Vegas! That one is exactly like mine, of course. I've been enchanted, or something, by these things ever since I played Greg Boyd's. It makes my bones ache to think that if I'd known what I know now, I'd be playing that beauty from Charles Johnson....

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## Mike Buesseler

Oh, btw, Jim...that chord you are playing...Is that the famous "Bluegrass Chop G with smushed over thumb" that I've heard so much about? MAN, you have long fingers!

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## Jim Garber

Nah, my fingers have shrunk over the years. 

Jim

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## Mike Buesseler

I've got a set of photos that show the extent and nature of the warping of my Vega CB. My primary motivation for posting these is so they are archived here for future reference. If I had known exactly what to look for when I was considering buying this mandolin, I would have made a different decision or negotiated a better price.  

I hope these pictures are good enough so you luthier/repairmen types can get an idea of what kind of work I'm (probably---haven't gotten any satisfaction from my seller) going to need.

Thanks for your forebearance, and for all the helpful offers I've had so far.

So, here we go....I hope these speak for themselves, but I would be happy to answer questions or post other photos, if anyone is interested.

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## Mike Buesseler

First one...

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## Mike Buesseler

Number two...

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## Mike Buesseler

Three....nice looking top on that side.

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## Mike Buesseler

Another view of the top...

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## Jim Garber

I see what you mean that most of the warp is on the treble side where the pickguard is. Mine seems to run all the way across the top. I have to check to see what the shape of the braces is on mine. 

BTW I just spoke to one of the few luthiers I trust and he said he has had success fixing the warpage of these without removing the top. He did some work on one of my bowlbacks recently that had a significat warp and a large long-unrepaired crack. He was able to fix it with humidity and judicious clamping. Just another possibility, if you cannot return it.

Jim

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## delsbrother

Cylinder Back Mandola on the 'Bay - no points? But looks like another pickguard crack...

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## Mike Buesseler

It was a surprise to see my thread bumped back up here. Delsbro, I've seen a lot of Vegas for sale since my minor tragedy. Some looked to be in good shape, some not so hot. Mine is currently in Jim DeCava's mando hospital, getting the top fixed and new frets.  When I get it back (soon, I hope), I plan to post some pictures of what a GOOD one looks like, so people can avoid what happened to me. Mine had no top cracks, btw, just warping. My heart still aches for the sweet sound mine had even with the top sunken...can't wait to hear that again....

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## danb

My 10-string mandola/mandolin combo has some top sink. I've seen it on almost all of the vega mandolas. Still sounds wonderful and seems to be stable where it is

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## Darryl Wolfe

MikeB, Tell me about Jim Decava and how he plans to fix it. I have another mando with similar problems

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## Mike Buesseler

Darryl, Jim was recommended to me by JGarber, here at the Cafe. J DeCava lives and works in CT, I'm in Montana, so our communication has been through email or over the phone. 

JD says he repairs these tops using "moisture and judicious clamping." I'm not sure if he's removing the top, or not. It seems to me he would have to, but not sure. He has done quite a number of these Vegas with the same problem. Mine had a brace that was reglued--which made more work for JD. Otherwise, he says he's running into no special problems. He also has a convincing explanation why those Vega tops sink in the first place (inlaid, glued-on pickguard), and has a fix for that (flexible glue pickguard). 

Jim has a website, with a phone number. Check  him out.

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## Jim Garber

Jim worked many years ago for Liberty Banjo and has specialized in repairs and building new custom instruments for quite a few years. He is one of maybe three local folks i would trust withj my vintage instruments.

He fixed a Vinaccia mandolin I had with a warped top crack prob the same way he is doing Mike's. That one looks quite nice and plays well. I think patience is the key word here -- putting the instrument in a humidified environment and checking it periodically and waiting, waiting, waiting, checking and waiting.

Maybe a little more to it but I think you get the idea. I don't think he has to remove the top but I know he removes that evil pickguard before all this. 

Jim

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