# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Tonerite questions

## Bill Van Liere

I was going to contact Teri directly but I think others might also be interested.

1. From the pictures the Toneright looks mando specific. Can this same (Tonerite for Mandolin) device be used to any effect on guitars also?

2. If the answer is no; are there any plans to build a model that is interchangable between the two?

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## Amandalyn

Yes Bill, the Guitar model is available, as well as Violin, Viola, Cello,Bass.
When I found out about the Tonerite for violins, that's when I started working with the inventor on developing the mandolin model. If you will contact me directly I can share some quotes with you  on users of the guitar model. (probablynot mandoliny enough for here, although the physics are the same). I can say luthier Micheal Lewis has tried the mandolin model with positive results,and is currently trying the guitar model on his instruments.
Teri
info@musicgrowshere.com

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## John Flynn

I just submitted some questions to Tonerite re: the mandolin model. The questions were:
1. Does this device vary its amplitude and frequency? 
2. If so, what are the ranges? 
3. Also, if so, what is the cycle, meaning how long does it take to run through all variations? 
4. Re: question #1, if not, how does it open up all frequencies on the instrument?
5. How long can the device be safely left in operation on an instrument?

The reply to my questions was quick, but not completely satisfactory, IMHO:

_"We have researched the play-in process extensively and we focus on the physics of playing your instrument as well as the interaction between nodes. It is important to not just focus on the frequencies from an input/output relationship but also the intermodulation / summing / destructive interference that is caused by nodes being excited at different frequencies along the instrument. Each type of instrument has their own important factors to consider and we go through a lot of variations and lessons to make sure each ToneRite is tailored to it's specific instrument.  Most users keep the ToneRite on their instrument whenever they are not playing it.  In the four years of testing we have not seen an instrument have "too much" or be "played out".  In fact, current research shows that gentle playing of an instrument eases the natural tensions of the wood and prevent cracks and strain on it. "_

I think he danced around question 1, so I will take that as a "no," making 2 and 3 moot. I thought he answered 4 with a lot of technical jargon. I have to wonder if that is just being precise, or an attempt at obfuscation. It would be great to have some of our acoustic experts here translate/critique. 

I am hoping this device has merit. I would be interested in it if it does. But I need some more information and testimonials before my "nodes get excited" enough to buy one!

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## Amandalyn

I will see if I can get more technical information for you. That's not my genre, I helped in other design aspects of the product design.  Let me talk to the inventor and see if I can get some specs for you. I do know he is not apt to give out too much technical info  because of his patent pending. We are open to forwarding a trial model to a tester who would be a good acoustic evaluator. So far we have done testing with luthiers and musicians alike. As far as it being left on the instrument, I have left mine on overnight, and for hours when not a home, with no problems, the inventor leaves his on his cello all the time when not played.
Teri 
info@musicgrowshere.com

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## Rick Turner

I have to say that patent pending is no reason not to disclose if you are selling the products.  If the units are available, then they can be easily "reverse engineered", and the knowledge you're trying to protect will become quickly known.   I'd suggest that you either not sell units until you're ready to disclose, or go ahead and disclose now because you're not going to be able to control disclosure once these things get into the hands of anyone who knows a bit about audio.  

I assume you've got a variable frequency vibrator in there.  The parameters that could be tweaked would be frequency and amplitude and maybe the direction of the force.  It's not rocket surgery or brain science!

And this is me, a believer in the concept here...

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## Amandalyn

As I said I'm not a tech head - my comment about patents was just a gut feeling.

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## Michael Lewis

Hi folks, maybe I can offer a little information here.  I have used the units on both mandolins and guitars with noticeable results.  You can vary the amplitude but not the frequency, but that doesn't seem to make much difference in the results.  The frequency is below any fretted note that the instrument would make, and it works.  What more do you need to know?

I first tried the unit on a mandolin that had been in a case for nearly a year, dead strings and all.  Actually, the A strings sounded fairly good before I started.  I left the unit on overnight at full throttle, which is still pretty gentle, and in the morning the instrument sounded great on all strings.  This instrument had never sounded so good with new strings, but was even, warm, rich, loud, clear, etc.  I immediately saw that the concept worked better than I expected.  

Now, a word of caution, not all instruments will respond equally.  I think that much like with the ToneGard, some instruments will be more effected and some less.  Perhaps it just takes more time for some instruments, I really don't know yet, as this is still pretty hew to me.

You wedge the bars on the underside of the unit between strings, that is what holds it on.  Slide it back to the bridge and plug it in.  It will hum at a low frequency and work on your instrument while you go do something else, like sleep or work.  

Possibly there could be some improvements with a frequency control, but as far as I can see it works well the way it is.  It ain't broke, so don't fix  it. :Mandosmiley:  

I don't think the unit needs to be on an instrument very frequently, just enough to keep it awake.  If you know you are going to a jam or a gig you might buzz it for an hour or two beforehand.  My assessment might change over time if I find some instruments require more buzzing time than others, but so far I think the unit is a success.

no financial interest here, just interest, and it IS interesting.

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## Rick Turner

I'm guessing the frequency is 60 Hz...line frequency, and yes, well below the lowest note on a mandolin.  I'm going to try plugging one of my ConAire vibrators into the speaker output of an amplifier to see what happens...  

You could drive one of these suckers with recordings of your favorite music...  Yes, you could have Bill wake up your mandolin...

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## John Flynn

Michael Lewis said, "The frequency is below any fretted note that the instrument would make, and it works. What more do you need to know?"

Michael, If you say it works, I believe that. Your reputation precedes you. But what more I want to know is what makes it worth $295. If it is just a simple 60 Hz vibrator, I could do as well to epoxy a drug store vibrator attachment to a home-made equivalent of a Weber Wood Nymph and have the same thing for ten cents on the dollar. But if they have some science behind their product that makes it worth $295, I'd just like to know what that science is, get some discussion of it here and if it makes sense to me, I'll spend the extra money. But if a vendor invites questions on their website, I ask a simple question and they dance around the answer, I get suspicious and I save my money.

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## greg_tsam

> But if a vendor invites questions on their website, I ask a simple question and they dance around the answer, I get suspicious and I save my money.


+1

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## Bill Van Liere

+2

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## Amandalyn

John, the advantage of the Tonerite over a dime store vibrator rig is it is designed specifically to fit each instrument IE: mandolin model, guitar model, etc. The strings are vibrated which transfers to the bridge, and whole body of the mandolin. You can feel all parts of the instrument resonating, yet is gentle. I am trying to get the guys at Tonerite to respond here and answer some of your technical questions.
Teri LaMarco

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## foldedpath

> Hi folks, maybe I can offer a little information here.  I have used the units on both mandolins and guitars with noticeable results.


I respect the experience and opinions of the notable builders here, but 'ya know...  a few good before-and-after recordings, under carefully controlled and repeatable conditions, released without identifying which file was which... would save a ton of discussion on forums like this one. And maybe even convince a few of us old crusty skeptics.  :Wink:

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## Amandalyn

I can do a recording test. Give me a couple of days, I'll let one of my mandolins sit so it's gone asleep.  What do you suggest for "controlled conditions"? Also, as suggested a trial model is available to a reputable tester. I was thinking Dr. Cohen or Roger S.
Teri LaMarco

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## Rick Turner

One of the things I've noticed about the phenomenon of guitars "opening up" is that a lot of it is how the instrument feels to play.  There's an ease that comes that makes the instrument more of a joy to play.  I don't know whether this translates to recording.   I do believe that it is true, whether or not it can be "proven".   All of the good musicians I know and do work for believe this as well.  A nice played in instrument practically plays itself...

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## Amandalyn

Ok, I relayed your concerns to Ryan of Tonerite and here is his response:

"There are a lot of factors in the design of the ToneRite other then the frequency input/output relationship.  It is more than what frequency you put into the instrument, how you get the frequency in and using the most efficient means possible is extremely important.  Also, factors such as providing a device that can support a lifetime of operation, manageable size, and near-silent operation are not trivial tasks.  People tend to get caught up in the 'what frequencies are you using questions' and honestly our research started in that same direction due to papers from Reumont, Strobel,  etc.  We have found that these factors are not the most important when trying to design a device to accelerate the play-in process.  We have found that an efficient mechanical connection, gentle vibration, and quality contact with the bridge are significantly more important.  Also, you need to do this in a safe and gentle manner.  I.E. The ToneRite is specifically made so that it falling from the instrument is very unlikely and if it did it would not cause damage, also due to the fact that the ToneRite does not touch the varnish long term use does not cause a 'weraing out' of a certain spot.   


All in all, what I was trying to explain to John in that focusing on the frequency I/O (transfer function) of an instrument is not the only factor, and in fact is not the most important.  3-D modeling of an acoustic generator such as a mandolin is a VERY difficult problem, not only does the model have to be accurate, but accounting for the random and imperfect nature of wood is tough.  The interference caused by the waves coming from the instrument and the surrounding space is also a large factor.  Next is the quantification of sound (a topic which I will avoid).  Anyways, to completely scientifically design a product such as the ToneRite would be nearly impossible.  


As for cost, we are working hard to bring the cost down.  We understand this is expensive and we are currently manufacturing these by hand in house and are very backordered due to the incredible response we have had from the violin, viola, cello community.  In mid-2009 we will be manufacturing some parts out of house that will make these much easier to produce and the cost will reflect that.  As you have found, entering a new market (such as the mandolin) results in difficult questions and we welcome them, but we want people to HEAR the difference.  You will soon notice, people that have used the ToneRite KNOW it works and don't end up posting very frequently on forums, but people that have not used it and doubt it do.  If you want a closed mathematical solution to the play-in process it is just not going to happen.  


A few people have discussed testing set-ups for an apples-to-apples test.  We are more then willing to do this!  The issues with things like acoustic instruments is that the test set-up influences the results.  Mics/room dryness/wetness, instrument quality, etc are factors that need to be de-embedded from the test.  If someone thinks they have a perfect set-up PLEASE let us know and we will visit and prove our results.  We have done a lot of testing with a lot of test set-ups that shows this works, but you will find as soon as you post/mention them you will have more questions/"nay-sayers" then you did before.


You can post this on the forum if you would like, but we encourage questions via phone or e-mail directly to us.  People can decide if/how/when the want to try this and if it "works" or not.  We are not trying to sell a 'gimmick' or rip people off.  We are more then happy to give a 100% refund to anyone that thinks this is a gimmick and will pay for shipping back.  We love music and like to think that maybe we can play a small part in advancing the science/sound of modern instruments.  When we started discovering the results we could get, we wanted to share the same joy that we got from the incredible enhancements our instruments made.  We all had comfortable engineering jobs that we have quit to try and put our passion for music and engineering together, regardless of the financial gain/loss.


Again, I apologize to John if I was unclear in my response, I hope this helps."  

 Ryan S. Frankel

ToneRite, Inc.
www.tonerite.com
110 SE 1st Street
4th Floor, Suite 320
Gainesville, FL 32601
O: (352) 214-2760
C: (352) 262-4434
E: ryan.frankel@tonerite.com

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## foldedpath

> One of the things I've noticed about the phenomenon of guitars "opening up" is that a lot of it is how the instrument feels to play.  There's an ease that comes that makes the instrument more of a joy to play.


Sure, I've felt that myself with various instruments over time. I think most of us notice it. I just don't know how much of that is due to the way I might have improved as a player over the years, and learned how to "grow into" the instrument. Also, like most players I fuss with strings, setup, and picks to find what brings out the best tone. That process can take years. So if I think that an instrument is sounding better after 5 or 10 years, am I hearing all these factors? Or am I hearing some other physical process in the wood that's independent of these things? 

Even in the short term; this idea that instruments "go to sleep" over fairly short periods of time if they're not constantly played.... is that actually what's happening? Or does it take a few minutes or hours of playing to remember what kind of attack and playing style an instrument needs, when you haven't touched it for a month? Is it the instrument warming up, or the player?

There may also be something going on with pure vibration in the wood. But far too little attention is paid to these other factors (IMO), which tend to complicate the picture, and make one suspicious of anecdotal claims that the _only_ factor in break-in is vibration that can be applied by an external gadget.

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## Cheryl Watson

Mandolins definitely "Go to sleep" from my experience; some more so than others and it may take a week or in some cases only a few days for an instrument to become less responsive and lose its fullness and depth of tone.  

I read an article a while back that I wish I could now find so that I could quote it verbatim...but it was about a theory stated by a luthier that the wood molecules in a musical instrument loosen up with vibration from playing and conversely, the molecules can settle if the instrument goes unplayed for a while which causes the wood to be physically less responsive.

All of us know that a good player who is warmed up can pull the tone out of his or her instrument better than when not warmed up. At one time I believed that this was the only reason why instruments seemed to "go to sleep" when it was the player who was not warmed up yet.  I still believe that this is part of the equation but not the only reason why an instrument sounds better when it has been played.

So a few years back, I tested this theory by letting mandolin A sit in its case for a week while I  played only mandolin B for at least an hour a day for a whole week. Then, with my hands warmed up after about a half an hour of play on mandolin B,  I pulled mandolin A out of its case and played it. It definitely lacked the response and fullness and depth that I knew it to have.  I picked up mandolin B again and it was honking--went directly back to mandolin A and it took over a half an hour of hard play to have the response and tone start to come back and even longer to bring it all the way back again. So I concluded that since my hands were warmed up and I was coaxing the tone quite easily out of mandolin B, that mandolin A had indeed gone to sleep.

It was not a scientific or mathematical experiment but I think that it was a "real life" practical experiment.

Cheryl :Mandosmiley:

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## Michael Lewis

I don't know how to measure the frequency of the Tonerite, but it sounds slower than 60 cycle hum.  The vibration is more of a throbbing than a buzz, and it can make the instrument generate sound a bit as it does it's work , especially if it is allowed to rattle anything like a cord or touch the bridge.  At MAX setting it produces a noticeable hum from an instrument, but lower settings are less noticeable.

Since I can't see the wood cells or the vibration waves to understand what exactly happens in this process I can't comment on the science involved, but I can hear the results.  My guess is that it causes the all the parts to "learn" to move together more efficiently.  Maybe Dr. Cohen could offer some light in this area.

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## John Malayter

Can we rent them????

$300 is a bundle, Siminoff charges $125 I think?? and he states the effects on the instrument are permanent but not all instruments respond the same. When I spoke with him, he was open ended on the timeframe as it depends on the instrument some take longer, which he will do if he deems necessary.

I too am interested in this product, as stated earlier it seems with a little ingenuity and elbow grease you could put one together at home.

I'll gamble the $125 and send mine to Roger then go to the drug store and buy some aspirin!

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## Bill Van Liere

Instuments going to sleep: I am starting to believe this is possible. Like is so often stated in these _opening up_ discussions; "I can't prove it but I can hear it." I have a well played in 46 D-18 that the sound just jumps out of. About a year back I acquired a really sweet Bourgeois to carry about and leave the old Martin at home. The instrument has been much less played for about a year now, poor old guy. The tone on the 18 seems thinned down and less full, has lost ground with the others; 79 HD-28, 68 O-16NY and the Bourgeois which is improving as expected. The humidity is the same for all the instruments, so I don't think it is a winter time/low humidity, thin tone issue which can be common at my latitude, think winter heaters. I think it has to do with not being played as much. 

I am primarily a Mandolin player with no plans to sell any guitars. I am very intersted in the concept of exciting an instrument at my discression as opposed to shipping it away to have this done.

Rental: not a bad idea for a music shop.

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## MikeEdgerton

Change the strings on the Martin, it will open up right away.

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## Amandalyn

The advantage of the Tonerite is you don't have to send your instrument away, have you considered  the total cost with shipping? With the Tonerite you have it for continuous or as needed use. As far as the science- has Siminoff's method been proven to last permanetly? I can't imagine any instrument not played for awhile that doesn't lose tone.
Here's a quote on a violin model:
   "_In my new violin, the TOnerite has greatly improved the response in all strings and somehow turned the sound somehow sweeter after one night"
                          Jose Belmonte
                          Professor of Violin
                          Seville Conservatory_

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## Bill Van Liere

A good suggetion Mike. The strings are in good shape though.

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## D C Blood

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, so I'll ask what might seem like a "dumb" question...Would there be any remote kind of chance that a constant vibration on a mando (or other instrument) might cause some glued pieces (such as tone bars or bracing) to loosen???

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## Amandalyn

Here's a pic of the Tonerite on a violin ( mandolin model is same size)

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## MikeEdgerton

> A good suggetion Mike. The strings are in good shape though.


That really doesn't make any difference, they have been out in the air even inside the case.

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## Bill Van Liere

> That really doesn't make any difference, they have been out in the air even inside the case.


Same air as the strings on the other guitars.

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## MikeEdgerton

Take my word for it, a guitar that's been sitting in a case for a year will have dead strings. If that's not the case why are these old mandolins coming out from under beds with dead strings? You don't have to play strings for them to die, they'll die on their own. It's environmental.

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## John Flynn

> Take my word for it, a guitar that's been sitting in a case for a year will have dead strings. If that's not the case why are these old mandolins coming out from under beds with dead strings? You don't have to play strings for them to die, they'll die on their own. It's environmental.


That's true, but I've always wondered about that. Why do unplayed strings die more quickly when they are on an instrument than when they in the package they come in, even though the pack is NOT one of those air-tight sealed ones? So a set of J74s, in drawer, in the D'Addario "paper-envelope" packaging will stay good for a long time. But if I put them on an instrument, even if I don't play it they will be dead in a few months. Anybody else notice this? Anyone know why?

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## Sean Greer

> So a set of J74s, in drawer, in the D'Addario "paper-envelope" packaging will stay good for a long time. But if I put them on an instrument, even if I don't play it they will be dead in a few months. Anybody else notice this? Anyone know why?


Perhaps it has to do with the 23 pounds of tension that are on the string?

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## Michael Lewis

The first instrument I tried the Tonerite on had old dead strings, and it came to life across all the strings with an overnight session.  

Just thinking about what MAY happen to strings as they are tuned to pitch.  They do stretch noticeably, which logically would tend to separate the windings slightly.  Whether this is enough to allow air to contact the core wire or not I don't know.

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## Rick Turner

One of the many "tricks of the trade" of string winding is setting the tension on the winding lathe of the core wire.  It is usually set a bit above "tuned up" string tension so the windings don't separate when the string is up to pitch. This is one of the reasons it's not a good idea to cut strings to length before putting them on the instrument; the windings can loosen and result in a weird sounding string.

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## JEStanek

> I haven't seen this mentioned yet, so I'll ask what might seem like a "dumb" question...Would there be any remote kind of chance that a constant vibration on a mando (or other instrument) might cause some glued pieces (such as tone bars or bracing) to loosen???


Probably no more than on an instrument that is played very frequently.  A good question though, any data for this on the tonerite?

Jamie

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## MikeEdgerton

I'm going to guess that if this small amount of vibration was to cause a glue joint to fail then the folks at Tonerite simply showed you something that was going to fail at a later date.

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## Amandalyn

I'd agree that the vibrations from the Tonerite are not any different ( and probably more gentle) than vigorous playing. That being said,I don't think it's advisable to put a Tonerite or any other vibration device on a newly glued instrument until it's cured. Those that are using it have reported no known side effects to the structure of their instruments. IE:Here's a quote-
_'I am extremely impressed with the Tonerite. Since using it,I have noticed an immense improvemnet in response, resonace and tone of my cello. And probably most impressively, I have observed no negative side effects"_
_Jeffrey Zeigler, Professional Cellist, Kronos Quartet_

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## MikeEdgerton

I wouldn't suggest putting strings on a mandolin that the glue hadn't completely dried on.

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## John Flynn

> Perhaps it has to do with the 23 pounds of tension that are on the string?


Well, the post I was reacting to claimed the cause was enviornmental. I would not consider the tension factor to be enviornmental (humidity, pollution, light, etc.). Also, I've noticed that a wound string will even tarnish when put on an instrument, even if it is not played. Why would tension cause a string to tarnish more quickly than if it were in an envelope? Just curious.

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## Michael Lewis

Strings at tension are usually installed on an instrument in my world.  That makes them prone to having fingers touch them, and there by become "contaminated" with organic body chemistry, which can hasten the demise of the strings.

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## Rick Turner

Ewww!  Gross!

I hear that pig grease and barbecue sauce on the strings will prevent tarnish...

On a more serious note, the out-gassing of nitro lacquer and celluloid bindings releases nitric acid which will tarnish strings and metal hardware on instruments in cases.

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## John M. Riley

Just curious.... but has anyone placed an order for one yet?

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## John Malayter

$300 buckerrroooo's is a lot of cash. At least to me, however I called Siminoff and he charges $125 for his services which isn't bad particually if it works. But i'm certian shipping each way would run me 50 bucks easy this brings the total to $225, which I could still swallow maybe.......

That being said, the $300 isn't really out of the question but only if you could get something out of it would it be worth it......

Opinions???? :Whistling:

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## John M. Riley

well i just sold a truck and an atv so i had a little extra money floating around... which doesnt happen very often.  So I went ahead and placed an order for one last week. We will see....

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## John M. Riley

got mine in today...  its definately gentle... lets give it some time

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## John M. Riley

I havent seen a post on the tonerite in a couple of days, so you all may have lost interest.  We all know that this is just an opinion... but I left the tonerite on one of my mandolins for a little over 72 hrs (which the recommended first use is 24 to 72 hrs). I really can tell a difference. No doubt about it.

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## mandozilla

I just pulled the trigger on a Tonerite mandolin dedamping device.  :Grin:  I was planning on buying one in the near future but found out they have a special going for the month of February on the Luthier Mandolin model...$100.00 off! Such a deal!  :Wink:  No financial interest but what a chance to save a bundle! I'll let you know how it works on my axe soon!  :Mandosmiley:

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## Dave Cohen

Y'know, as I understand it, the Tone Rite is essentially what is known as a stinger.  You can make one of those things with a single rare earth magnet, a coil, a freeware signal generator for your computer, and maybe a pot to give you the amplitude control to reduce the noise coming from the mandolin.  Really, a few bucks for parts from Radio Shack and a freeware program.  Now that's a deal.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

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## mandozilla

Yeah...if you're an electrical engineer or something...I'm scientifically and mathematically challenged...if I built my own I'd probably electrocute myself or burn down the house and my instruments with it. HA HA HA  :Laughing:

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## John M. Riley

Yeah, thats how I looked at it... 
To get the full effect, you need something that you can leave on for long amounts of time and something that you can leave on there when your gone.  Ive been into "rigging up" stuff to vibrate the mandolins for a while now.  One of my nice ones got damaged a couple of years ago and that was enough to make me quit trying on my own.  I wanted something that I could put on there and walk off and not have to worry about.  I feel that is what I have now.  Like I said.  I left it on one mandolin for over 72 hrs... no worries at all.

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## bluegrassgm

So John - which of your mandos did you have it on and what specific changes did you notice after the 72+ hours?

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## Keith Newell

I will add some comments about the one I received. First let me say that Hans at Tonerite is very nice to deal with. I got mine a week ago and put it on a new A style I built. I turned it up to max and let it stay for 24hrs. I then took it off and played it and it really did make a difference. I put it back on for about another 50 hrs on a setting that was not the lowest but a notch above that. I then took it to a jam session and wow. It sounded like a seasoned warrior. I play at Irish jam sessions and when it gets many players I find I switch to my Irish tenor banjo, but this time I didn't need to bring it at all.
  I feel I could leave this thing on 24/7 and trust it to not hurt anything on the instrument. To use it I found it best to take a bath towel and fold it a couple times and put the tailpiece end on the center of it, then prop up the neck at about a 30 deg angle and take a smaller folded towel and let the area of the nut cradle in the towel. The mandolin is now kind of suspended and free to vibrate. The unit wedges lightly between the strings and slide it down to the bridge. Make sure no chord or anything touches the instrument.
  I noticed something about the vibrations, when you first set it up and turn it to max touch the top/back with your thumb/index finger and feel the vibrations. While still feeling them slide the amplitude adjuster down to low and back up and feel the difference in the top back vibrations. I noticed that after 24hrs I could turn it down to almost low and still get as much vibration out of the top/back plates.
  I don't think it will make a "better" instrument out of your mandolin but it will take it a lot closer to it's potential very quickly. As a builder you get to hear the changes that happen when you first string it up to the various stages of play time and this seems to do it quickly without the fret wear, string wear or any visible play wear. I have no financial interest but think if someone has a good idea and it works, then good for them. I could make one of these but the time spent on getting the parts putting it together and most importantly designing the application or the case it comes in I would rather have them do it and work the bugs out of it.
 Keith Newell
http://www.newellmandolin.com

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## jswag

I've been reading this thread, and have also contacted Teri at music tree about the mando model. A few things that come to my mind are: It sure would be nice if a model was available that would work on a few different instruments, like mandolin, mandola, and guitar too.   Are the effects lasting? I would guess they are on opening up newer instruments, but maybe not on those instruments that always seem to need to wake up" a bit before they sound good; course, that's another reason to use it before playing those "sleepy" instruments.
I could also see a music store carrying the various "models" and renting them out, kinda like the rental stores rent things. 
I'm very intrigued, but I would want one that is versatile on a few different instruments.
Jeff

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## EffimoFunk

--

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## gregjones

> well i just sold a truck and an atv so i had a little extra money floating around... which doesnt happen very often.  So I went ahead and placed an order for one last week. We will see....


With your list of instruments, it looks like you need another half dozen or so.

TAS??

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## John M. Riley

yeah i really do.... im wanting to try it on all of them.. but so far i am just done with one and almost done with another...... jeeze i do need about 3 or 4 more, haha

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## woodwiz

As for the patent pending:  I believe there is already an existing patent for a similar device, which may or may not hold up to a challenge.  (I know the patent holder.)  There is just way to much prior art for a patent on an electromechanical device for vibrating instrument bridges to hold up.  IIRC, there are a few discussions and illustrations of similar devices on this very forum.

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## pops1

This is an interesting topic. In the old days we just put the instrument on a stand in front of the stereo, cranked up the bass and volume and went to work. Do that everyday for as long as it took to open up the instrument. Vibration is vibration. I believe that playing or vibrating an instrument help the wood stay stronger also, avoiding the constant stress of the string tension.

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...In the old days we just put the instrument on a stand in front of the stereo, cranked up the bass and volume and went to work. Do that everyday for as long as it took to open up the instrument. Vibration is vibration...


Do you see anything that might be more convenient about having a small, quiet device that attaches to an instrument vs. standing your mandolin in front of your speakers with the sound playing loud enough to vibrate the wood? If you're so inclined to want to do this I think your family and neighbors might appreciate this method.

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## Cheryl Watson

As Mike E. stated- the convenience of the Tonerite is the advantage. 

The beauty of the design is that all the amateur ways that have been created to get an instrument to open up and increase tone, have been worked out in a professional product. It's gentle, specific to the instrument. Another advantage is that it's portable, and can be taken to gigs and used before a performance.

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## TomTyrrell

For those who are really interested, the current Patent Application Number for this is 20080190260. You can see it at www.uspto.gov.

When Patent applications are pending everything you can expect to find out about the invention is on that application. The art of the patent application is in being as broad and non-specific as possible while remaining specific enough to actually get the patent granted. Anything you don't have to disclose you keep as a company secret.

The Tonerite is definately a product that could be reverse-engineered. Unless you are just plain weird the only reason to do that would be to copy the product and sell your copies at a lower price than the original. This is exactly the action a Patent protects the inventor from so it would be illogical to expect the inventor to disclose the specific details of his invention.

So if you want to make yourself a mandolin vibrator by all means do so! Just keep in mind that for only $195 you could have saved yourself all that trouble and purchased something that actually works.

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## MikeEdgerton

When they down around twenty five bucks I'm gonna get me one.

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## Bill Snyder

> When they (get) down around twenty five bucks I'm gonna get me one.


I understand players interest in them but I don't think I personally would be interested in one if they were to give them away.

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## mandozilla

Mike said;
"Do you see anything that might be more convenient about having a small, quiet device that attaches to an instrument vs. standing your mandolin in front of your speakers with the sound playing loud enough to vibrate the wood? If you're so inclined to want to do this I think your family and neighbors might appreciate this method."

Right on Mike! If I tried the speaker thing my dear wife would probably turn  the stereo off as soon as I left for work and then turn it back on before I got home and then I'd be saying that speakerizing your instrument doesn't work. HaHaHa  :Laughing:

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## Bill Van Liere

> When they down around twenty five bucks I'm gonna get me one.


I hear ya Mike, do figure that will be before or after you get those Waverly tuners?

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## MikeEdgerton

> I hear ya Mike, do figure that will be before or after you get those Waverly tuners?



I'm really still on the fence about those. If they get down around $25.00 I'm in for those as well. Everytime I get ready to jump on the Waverly's I start thinking I need new PA speakers or something.

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## mandozilla

Well, my Tonerite Mandolin de-damping device arrived yesterday afternoon.  :Smile: 

It's de-damping away on my mandolin as I write this.  :Grin: 

Instructions recommend having it on the instrument for 24 to 72 hours (72 hours preferrably).  :Whistling: 

I started it at 7 PM yesterday and can only leave it on continuously for 44 hours  :Crying: ...gotta use the mando on Thursday night...sooo we'll see what the effects are after this initial use.  :Mandosmiley: 

BTW, this is a *REALLY WELL* made device...*very substantial*...I'm impressed so far...NFI.

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## mandozilla

You know, I'm amazed at the number of viewers of this, and other, de-damping related threads...Dang!  :Disbelief: 

I never paid attention to the viewership. I guess there's a lot of folks are waiting for the jury to come in on these gizmos.  :Grin: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Michael Lewis

I think the jury is already in, and all the folks looking in on this thread are just waiting to be convinced.  

I think that if your mandolin can ever be played in these gizmos can help.  I'm sure there are some instruments out there in the world that won't show much response to this treatment, but I think most instruments will.

Just playing your mandolin a lot (and aggressively) will do much the same for the development of the tone and volume, but not as soon as when massaged/de damped by the Tonerite.

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## mandozilla

JEEPERS! I've had my new Tonerite device on my mandolin for 44 hours straight. It's recommended to have it on initially for 72 hours but couldn't do it.  :Crying:  Had to go to a jam. 

Anyhow, my mandolin had good volume and tone before de-damping but now WOW!  :Disbelief: 

My observations are strictly anecdotal and not scientific but I'm really impressed. We know what our mandolins sound like to us so I believe we can tell the difference. Just wish I could quantify it somehow.  It definately has more volume and the tone is awesome. The notes seem to pop off the top plate.  :Grin: 

I played it in a jam last night. There were 4, count 'em, 4 B***O's there and I had *NO* difficulty hearing myself...for the first time. It really made a difference in my speed and accuracy.  :Laughing: 

The tonerite is back on and it's gonna stay on all the time...best $200 Bucks I've spent in a long time...I'm a very happy camper!  :Mandosmiley:

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## Kerry Krishna

So there are still people wondering whether 'Instruments go to sleep'? Wow. I thought that was understood years ago. The bowed instrument  players have known about this for maybe 150 years.(imagine a violin that has been sitting in a case for 80 years) A quick story. A close friend bought a D28Herringbone back in '89. Now how many D28Hs does the factory put out in a month? Say 15 of them. Well this axe was heads above the other 14. I don't have to gush about this guitar. Just trust me that I know what I'm talking about with this axe when I say it was amazing. So fastforward to '06. I have a jam with my friend  Zimmy after many years. The instrument has seen about twenty hours playing time in the last 10 years. He had put a new set od strings on right before I walked in the door. It sounded like an El Degas guitar. Horrible. Amazingly horrible. When he went to the bathroom, I gave the guitar a tapping test all over to make sure no braces had fallen out. It was all solid. So it went from sounding almost broken in right from the factory, to sounding like an $160 El Degas... It was needing some heavy duty playing is what it needed.It was SO asleep, that it did'nt want to wake up at all. I never said anything to Zimmy about it. 8 months later he had sold it. When I asked why he started laughing and said 'It went to sleep! Everyone knows you can't wake an instrument thats gone to sleep. " He is wrong of course...Kerry K

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## craigw

So I've had my Tonerite for about two weeks now and in that time frame I've treated four mandolins. The first was a 2001 Gibson Fern with very dead strings, at least a year old and hardly played at all during that period. After only 24 hours the changes were remarkable. Primarily with brighter more focused tone as if the strings were not dead and as if it had been getting regular play. This instrument is very dry, especially on the low end and remained so. The three other instruments have been treated for periods of 36 to 72 hours and and across the board I would have to say each has become much brighter and noticibly louder. Seems like a pretty good investment to me.

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## foldedpath

> You know, I'm amazed at the number of viewers of this, and other, de-damping related threads...Dang! 
> 
> I never paid attention to the viewership. I guess there's a lot of folks are waiting for the jury to come in on these gizmos.


I don't think the jury will ever come in for some of us skeptics, until someone makes a careful, objective before-and-after recording that shows a noticeable difference in a blind A/B/X test. Is that so hard to do? Or are we all going to spend a few more years reading personal, anecdotal reports about this sort of thing (including blasting a mandolin with stereo speakers, and all the other related "de-damping" stuff)?

Seriously... if it worked, and some actual objective evidence could be shown that it worked, then I might buy one of these gadgets for the next new instrument I buy. So far, I've seen nothing but the same kind of anecdotal voodoo "evidence" that people tout for thousand dollar speaker cables, and magic magnets that make your stereo system sound better.

As for the view stats on the thread, I suspect for some it's auto wreck syndrome.... can't help but look at things that are morbidly fascinating.  :Smile:

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## John M. Riley

Not only did I notice a differenc eafter using my tonerite for over 72 hours on one of my mandos, but I was jamming some with my dad afterwards, and he commented that the mandolin was hurting his ears because it was so loud, haha... i do tend to play with a heavy right hand, but he had never complained before...  he said he could definately tell a difference, and he made the comment before he knew i had used the tonerite

----------


## Keith Newell

I don't know if this topic is "morbidly fascinating" but I do know that when somebody with more knowledge, skill, respect and no financial interest says something I tend to listen and not require them to absolutely prove it to me unless it was a life or death situation. When Mr. Lewis had a good word I figured it was worth a try. As with most people I don't have a professional sound set-up that could record all the nuances and the full spectrum of what our ears hear so most don't tend to take time recording a before/after situation. In fact if I did have the set-up I don't think I would bother as I'm pretty time poor and project rich. All I know is that I'm a glass is half full kind of guy and when you find the glass all the way topped I am pretty pleased.
 Keith

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## mandozilla

In my last post I said that we all know what our mandolins sound like and what the tonal qualities are like, albeit totally anecdotal, due to our intimate contact with them. (Intimate contact HaHaHa)  :Laughing: 

I have no axe to grind here and if there was no difference to me I'd be trying for a refund.  :Crying: 

I repeat, although I can't quantitavely or qualitavely prove it, this device has made a BIG difference in my mandolins' volume and tone and I couldn't be more satisfied.  :Grin: 

I only wish that this device could also be used on guitars...I kind of tried it but it doesn't stay put...But I'll find a way...  :Confused: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## jswag

Mark, let us know if you figure a way to use it on your guitar too! 
Has anyone tried to see if it will fit on a mandola? I'm not ready/can't yet (for me) justify the expense for just my couple of mandolins...But maybe if it will fit my mandola's too...and even better on guitars.
I do appreciate all the "reviews" that have been given so far, thanks everyone!
Hope that didn't sound "morbid" :Smile: 
Jeff

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## Rick Turner

If glue joint are going to fail from the fairly gentle vibration of the ToneRite, then those glue joints are just going to fail anyway.

I've had a ToneRite on a Gitane Sel-Mac style guitar for about ten days straight now.  The vibrations even at full tilt are less than you get playing moderately hard.   I can't imagine a problem.

The results so far?  The guitar speaks easier and the sound is warmer without losing the typical cut of a Sel-Mac guitar.   I'm going to loan the device to Paul Hostetter and Jeff Traugott, then send it up to my friends at Acoustic Guitar Magazine.   We'll do and eval/follow up to the article on the TimbreTech process that I wrote about 12 years ago.

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## R. Kane

I had the device on one mandolin for 60 hours and then took the mandolin out to a session with folks that I play with every week. They wanted to know what I had done to make the mandolin so much louder. It was a terrific instrument to start with, but they kept staring at it. Is the Toneright the silicone implant of acoustic instruments? Pretty soon, we're going to hear great loud mandolins all over the place, and wonder if they're "real" or not.  :Wink:

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## Michael Lewis

Arcane, :Laughing:   That's pretty good!

The sound a mandolin puts out is real, whether it is the result of being "treated" with a Tonerite, or untreated.  This device just helps bring out the potential of the instrument.

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## mandozilla

I've got my tonerite going on a pac-rim (Loar 500 solid but pressed top) that is so quiet that I can barely hear it (literally) when I play it...very disappointing except I got it dirt cheap...Anyhow, I'm going to leave it on for the full recommended initial 72 hours and see if it helps...If this doesn't work I'm definately donating it to the 'Bluegrass in the Schools" program here in Socal.  :Crying: 

My main mando continues to impress...me and others...I'm very satisfied.  :Grin: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Michael Lewis

Mandozilla, your mando may need a  lot more time with the Tonerite if it is  currently really quiet.  This is usually due to there being too much wood in the wrong places, like thick top, large tone bars, thick back.  I don't know how much the Tonerite can overcome, but keep it on there for a week or two is you can.  Take it off to play it from time to time for comparison.

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## Treble in mind

Tried my new Tone-Rite for around 72 hrs. on an unusual Bulldog (F-4/Virzi) that hasn't been played much, and there's no question that the tone opened up considerably.  It's not even a judgement call.  The next test beds will be a Brian Dean cittern and a Sobell mandolin, both of which also lack enough miles.

The gadget isn't rocket science, fairly simple actually, but it works.  And simple is good. Kudos to the guys who made it.

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## Treble in mind

Whoops.  How does one delete a message?

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## Kerry Krishna

Mr. Zilla, I look forward to 'hearing' about what the Tonerite does to that axe of yours..... waitin....Kerry K

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## mandozilla

Thanks for the tip Michael, I will leave it on as you suggested and I'll let yall know what happens.  :Grin: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Treble in mind

Another plug for Tone-Rite, this time to the integrity of the people making it. 

Immediately after I ordered my mando model on the web, I realized that it would be a lot easier for me if it were delivered to my street address rather than to my PO box.  So I called Tone-Rite, got Ryan Frankel on the line and asked him to make the change to my mailing address, which he promptly and courteously did.

About ten days later the unit hadn't arrived: it turned out it had been delivered to the PO box a couple of days earlier.  I emailed Ryan, asking what happened.  He quickly emailed back, apologized for a computer glitch in their system that he explained in detail, and with absolutely no expectation or prompting on my part refunded 20 bucks to my PayPal account!

I emailed him again, telling him I was disappointed in him because he hadn't yet learned the rules of Corporate America, the first of which is never to admit a mistake.

Decent folks, these Tone-Rite guys.

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## mandozilla

UPDATE!

I've had the Tonerite on my "The Loar" LM-500 for 96 hours straight. When I tried the mandolin, the volume had increased appreciably but not to the point where I'd rave about it.  :Crying:  And, the highs were considerably clearer.  :Smile: 

Keep in mind that the top on this one isn't solid and carved but rather it's solid and pressed into shape. I didn't hold out much hope for significant improvements but as it is I'm encouraged enough to try further de-damping.  :Grin: 

Michael Lewis (whose mandolins I have played and greatly admire) said I should leave her going for up to two weeks so it's back to the Tonerite for this one.  :Laughing: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Bigtuna

So, what are the chances if any that this device will drop in price in the future. A $100 off makes me want to pull the trigger, but if I wait, lets say a year or so. Will they be a $100? I know I read somewhere on here he was looking to drop the cost in the future. Looking at the regular price, and the prices of the other models, they are out of my price range (for mandolin gizmos). I guess I need someone else to justify the $200 cost for me. I really don't know what its going to take to make me pull the trigger on this one. Maybe my tax return and that the Feb special is about to expire.

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## Amandalyn

Well, it's been kinda quiet here for awhile- how are those Tonerites working for you guys? Hopefully with this great weather (at least in FL) you've all been out picking this weekend. :Mandosmiley:

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## mandozilla

Okay, I've had the Tonerite this "The Loar" LM-500 for 2 weeks solid (I took it off for 5 minutes about a week ago because I was curious)... :Redface: 

The volume has improved as has the tone but not to where it makes a huge difference to me...I think the mandolin is just a dud...But, it has improved enough where will actually play it a bit and not just put it back in the case in disgust.  :Smile: 

It, the Tonerite, continues to do wonders on my main mando.   :Grin: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## mandozilla

*HUH? How did this happen?*  :Redface:

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## MikeEdgerton

How did what happen?

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## mandozilla

Somehow I mistakenly entered the last post twice. DUH! I don't know what I did.  :Redface: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## papawhisky

The topic of dedamping holds more than normal interest for me since I am waiting for the arrival of a new mandolin.  A price of $300 for the Tonerite does provide a little motivation to attempt a homemade solution.  Respecting the fact that this a family show, I'll just say that there are stores that sell plenty of devices with vibration generators.  I'm just saying.

Papawhisky

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## mandozilla

True. But having bought and used a Tonerite, I think it might be pretty difficult to adapt the 'odd' shape of some of those devices to achieve the same results. HaHaHa  :Laughing: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Keith Newell

Bought it, love it, use it.....now instead of playing in an instrument for hours I pick it up the next day and it sounds two weeks old. Use it 2 weeks the instrument sounds a month of playing mature. Please don't argue or post contraire posts unless you have experienced a new unplayed instrument from the first note to a few weeks of playing. I am so tired of sceptics that have no real experience.....really people if you want to post opinion's please log some experience! I guess I'm getting old in my Patience. Forgive me if I offend but continual non- informative posts get tedious over the years. I wish I got some kickbackback from posting positive on this but they were a straight up company and solved a problem most generously so they are A1 in my book.
 Keith Newell
Http://www.newellmandolin.com

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## Rick Turner

Keith, very few players have that experience that we builders do of stringing up an instrument for the first time and hearing the incredible changes that happen in the first 24, 48, 72 hours and beyond.  Our hands on, ears on, empirical experience does count for something, and I don't know a single builder of wooden instruments who doesn't believe in the phenomenon of our creations "opening up" as they age.  In my experience, it's only the tone deaf, contrary, and not particularly talented among players who claim not to believe in instruments changing with playing and time...and yes, sometimes with some help.

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## mandozilla

Or refuse to believe it works out of hand without trying it because there is no scientific proof to satisfy them. Our ears gotta count for something I know there's a difference, I can hear it and I know squat about science.  :Grin: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Michael Lewis

Yeah, the Tonerite is a great gadget.  It works.  I like it.  There will be some that won't have anything to do with them for whatever reason, and that is their loss.  Do we NEED a Tonerite?  Do we NEED a ToneGard?  Do we NEED Waverly machines?  No, we don't NEED them, but these things make our lives better by increasing our enjoyment of our mandolins.  I think that is a GOOD thing.

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## MikeEdgerton

I'm still trying to figure out how to handle Papawhisky's post. If anyone wants to try that keep in mind that vinyl can kill a laquered finish. See this article from Frank Ford's www.frets.com.

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## Rick Turner

A pal sent me a couple of "ConAire" vibrators that have suction cups on them, and I've put them on guitar tops and let them go for a while, and yes, they work, too.   The suction cups are probably made out of something that would harm varnish or lacquer, but I didn't have a problem on polyester finishes.  They are not as gentle as the ToneRite, but they're still way under what the TimbreTech process did.

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## MikeEdgerton

My other concern is somebody throwing  somthing into a case that would beat the tar out of the wood. This has to be secured in some way.

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## man dough nollij

> I'm still trying to figure out how to handle Papawhisky's post. If anyone wants to try that keep in mind that vinyl can kill a laquered finish. See this article from Frank Ford's www.frets.com.


What needs to be handled? He was obviously referring to these:

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## Rick Lindstrom

I pulled the trigger on a Tonerite during the sale they were having. The price seemed good and I was hoping to use it to resurrect a mando that should have been better rather than selling it. Here are my thoughts:

First, I want to chime in and say that the Tonerite folks provide class A+ customer service. When I placed the order, Hans promptly emailed thanking me for the order and letting me know that it'd be a week or so before the Tonerite was mailed because they were having a hard time making them fast enough to keep up with the demand. I got another email later telling me about the status of my order, and another when it was shipped. 

I wanted the Tonerite to try on a Yellowstone that I had acquired when I thought that all real mandolin players had to use F-styles. The mando had never been really played in, and still sounded tight and new. Getting played in by me wasn't going to happen either because I had realized that I'm an A-style kind of guy and my Bridger was getting all of my playing time. The Yellowstone has been sleeping in its case for the better part of three years since I bought it. Anyway, when the Tonerite came, I set it up on the Yellowstone and left it for 72 hours. The results where undeniable, and no judgement call was required. It really woke up the E string on this mando, balancing the instrument nicely. The E string had always been weak compared to the rest of the strings; now it's much louder and clear, and the mando overall sounds very good (like it probably would have if I'd been playing it all this time <G>). I'm probably still going to sell it because I've just gotten to the point that I want to play A models, but at least I'll be able to send it on to its next owner sounding much better and knowing that it has some really good potential if it gets played. Score one for Tonerite.

Of course, I had to try it next on the Bridger. This mando has seen a lot of play time, and to my mind needs nothing, but who knows, right? After an overnight session with Tonerite, the Bridger was unmistakeably changed too- more open, more presence, and the E string was louder too. Score another one for Toneright. Most of my mando playing happens during the week, so the Bridger will be spending weekends being caressed by the Tonerite  :Smile: 

I think I've discovered something about how to use one of these devices: the instructions say to place it as close to the bridge as possible. When you do that, you hear a lot of racket coming from the Tonerite- motor noise I think. Curiosity lead me to experiment by moving it to different locations between the bridge and fingerboard end, and I found a place where the Tonerite goes nearly silent and the vibrations in the body of the mando increase dramatically. Ironically, this location corresponds to what we usually call the "sweet spot" on the strings. Not much surprise there, in retrospect- it's the place where we use the pick to most efficiently transfer energy to the mando, and the Tonerite does the same thing. Instead of wasting energy as noise, the Tonerite becomes quiet because it is transferring its energy efficiently to the mando body. How elegant. This reminds me a little of impedance matching of a power source to a load in electronics, but let's not go there right now. Neither of my mandos have fingerboard extensions, so I can put the Tonerite on the sweet spot; I'm thinking that this might be hard to do on a mando with a traditional extension.

This post is getting long, so I'll wind it up by saying that I'm a happy camper. I doubt that a Tonerite can transform a sow's ear into a silk purse, but it definitely brings out whatever potential a mandolin has. 

Rick

----------


## Randolph

I agree, Hans at ToneRite has been a great person to deal with.  I am old enough to remember when excellent customer service was the norm, and the folks at ToneRite are a refreshing example of those old standards.  :Smile: 
I have used the ToneRite on my "second" mandolin for approximately 150 hours since its arrival ten days ago. In fact, now it is vibrating away for most of the hours of a day when I am not playing.  Since I alternate between my two mandolins on a six month rotation, after a half a year of being encased in the closet, this particular mandolin, with a red spruce top, would sound near "dead" in comparison to the other, actively played, mandolin.  This time, however, it has opened up much more quickly than usual.  There has been a noticeable increase in volume, and very subjectively speaking, the overall tone seems to have evened out with a better balance between bass and treble. Some of the tonal change is probably due to gradual adjustments in playing style necessitated by the mandolins' markedly different neck profiles, different sweet spots and different pick attacks needed to maximize tone.  And, some of that change in tone I will credit to the "good vibrations" emanating from the ToneRite.  I say this because of the noticeable change in vibrational patterns across the top of the mando over time.  For the first several days the mando top would vibrate like crazy along the outer edge with very little vibration beyond the recurve.  Now, after many hours, the entire top vibrates with strong vibrations being felt passing through the thickest part of the top.  Even the bridge has taken on a vibrational life of its own, while the entire back is vibrating more freely as well. 
Overall, I am pleased that I may have found a solution to the problem created by my mando rotation schedule.  My one complaint is the poor quality rheostat.  The rheostat on my unit offers little in the way of fine tuning, and other than full on or full "off" it is a crapshoot trying to set the slider somewhere in the middle ranges. And I say "off" because the unit never turns off at the switch.  This means getting down on the floor to plug/unplug it every time its used.   :Frown:   For something costing this much, this is not cool.  Its kind of like having to crawl through the trunk of a brand new car because the electronic door locks don't work. :Laughing:  And for the record, I notified ToneRite about my concerns before posting here.  And please remember:YMMV.

----------


## jswag

Can any of you who have a mandolin tonerite tell me if it will  also fit on a Mandola? Or an Octave Mandolin? If it will fit these instruments also, it would sure be nice, and (for me) make the cost more acceptable for my current budget/finances. Thanks for any information.
Jeff

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## mandozilla

:Wink: Randolph
As a fellow happy Tonerite owner I bet they'll make the improvements you suggeted...they seem like the kind of businessmen interested in the continuous improvement of their product.  :Grin: 

Hey Jeff
The unit fits snugly between the ggdd courses and the aaee courses. I don't have anything bigger than a mando right now but I don't think it would be an easy fit...it will fit on a guitar with one foot between say the D  and G with the other between the G and B if that helps. 

 :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Randolph

Update on the ToneRite rheostat:  Hans emailed me regarding my concerns about the poor quality rheostat.   He allowed that the original part was not the best, that they have moved to a higher quality rheostat with a genuine on/off switch, and that he would be happy to pay for shipping both ways and replace the rheostat free of charge.  What can I say?  Such business ethics speak for themselves. :Grin:

----------


## papawhisky

That is a level of service that builds a reputation.  I have looked on sites for the classical violin community and see a lot of praise for Tonerite.  I am convinced, but need a little bail out or stimulus to come up with the full suggested manufacturers price.

----------


## CharlesW

Hey everyone. I was doing some research to see how far along the tonerite is and came across this forum in the process.

I'm actually the original "inventor" of the tonerite in concept. I've known Augi for many years and have had a business meeting with Hans as well prior to his working with Augi. 

Where did the idea come from? We (Augi, my brother, and I) were watching an episode of Modern Marvels on musical instruments where it discussed the improvement in sound quality due to playing. I personally have no musical knowledge whatsoever, but Augi has extensive knowledge in the subject. The next question was obvious. Why hasnt someone created a device to simulate playing to improve the sound quality? That's when the idea was born.

Augi at the time was finishing up his EE and started working on the concept. Although he had the capability of designing the simple circuit, he had little to no manufacturing skills to develop a prototype required for the patent application. This is where my brother Edward (mechanical engineer) came into the picture. My brother knew Augi longer than I did from them having lived at UF together for several years. So prior to the patent application, Augi and Edward started the housing design to fit on the violin along with component improvement. Other models were to follow for guitar, cello, etc. based on the similar design.

I'm a statistician by degree, so my input into the design process beyond having had the original idea was negligible. However, I suggested and was willing to do the experimental design and analysis in order to quantify the improvements in sound quality. Neither of them cared about the analysis at the time and were only concerned with just getting a product out to sell. Engineers, I am right?

So after doing all the cad work, material selection, milling, etc., Augi and Edward had plans to go into business together doing small scale manufacturing of the product. Of course, that's where the plan fell through as Augi was demanding something in the neighborhood of a 70/30 split and my brother wanted 50/50. Augi has always been very eccentric and greedy, "I left my wallet at home", so it was no surprise to me what happened. Augi of course continued his pursuit towards the patent.

Now it's where it gets interesting. According to patent law and discussions with an old high school friend who is now a top notch patent/intellectual property lawyer, Augi was by law required to include both my name and my brother's name in the patent application as having contributed to the invention and design. All contributions were prior to the patent application date. We have extensive documentation of the contributions to the concept, complete cad designs for the original, DOW chemical receipts/shipping, correspondence, etc. to prove this. From what my friend the patent lawyer has advised me, the case here is a slam dunk should we pursue legal actions against Augi in regards to the patent application.

I personally haven't talked to Augi in probably a year or better. It was always a waiting game on when he would screw you over for his personal gain. Still want to know why a device worth several dollars in materials is selling for $300? I think you can figure that out.

So anyway, I just wanted to rant about that. We have not decided to pursue legal action as of yet to claim any royalties owed. I didn't care about the money, but it would have been nice to at least have my name on the patent. My brother on the other hand, especially after all the work he contributed to the design, feels otherwise.

So that's the story of the "tonerite".

----------


## mandozilla

Charles this is hardly the place for this stuff. How do we know you're not just a flamer and impuning someones reputation with no proof to back it up. Sounds like it might be a case of sour grapes to me.  :Crying: 

I don't know Augi personally, but I'll tell you what, I LOVE my Tonerite and It has brought me well over the asking price in the joy I've experienced with the enhancement of volume and tone in my mando.  :Grin: 

*CUT IT OUT!!*  :Mad: 

 :Mandosmiley:

----------


## CharlesW

Flamer? It's the truth. I have known Augi for many years and would say I know him better than most. Hell, I was one of the few who understood where he was coming from when others felt otherwise. I only met Hans once over a business lunch, and by all first impressions he is a great guy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not impuning the product, it was an idea we all contributed to. I always thought it was great and had a high potential for success. I think it's safe to say that's the case.

I just wanted to vent and explain some of the background to people discussing the product. Forgive me for being upset for someone not crediting the contributions others have made to it. It isn't right.

----------


## Rick Turner

I'd like to point out that the concept of electro-mechanically driving an instrument top or the entire instrument is not new.  I first came across the concept in 1964.  A guitar maker by the name of Clyde Tinsdale was putting his instruments in a closet with a stereo speaker turned up loud to drive the instrument.  About 35 years later, I wrote an article for Acoustic Guitar Magazine in the TimbreTech process that involved clamping instruments to an industrial shaker table and driving them hard for close to an hour with a frequency sweep from about 100 Hz up to 5K.   A number of people have designed mechanical string plucking machines (and chicken plucking machines, too :-)).   So patent, smatent; it may cover specifics of packaging, but I guarantee you, it won't protect the concept of artificially aging an instrument with vibrations.  

That said, the ToneRite works, from what I can tell so far.   And it's convenient.   And it probably adds more than its cost in value to the tone of the instrument, and that's what really counts.   That's for players to decide.

----------


## Paul Hostetter

impugn |imˈpyoōn|
verb [ trans. ]
dispute the truth, validity, or honesty of (a statement or motive); call into question : the father does not impugn her capacity as a good mother.
DERIVATIVES
impugnable _adjective_
impugnment _noun_
ORIGIN late Middle English (also in the sense [assault, attack physically] ): from Latin impugnare assail, from in- toward + pugnare fight.

Lern to spel. Your crabbing will have more impact.

----------


## CharlesW

Hey Rick, I'm sure there have been many ideas to achieve the same goal as you've pointed out, the only real difference I can see between the ones you mentioned and the tonerite is the packaging as you've mentioned. I'm not sure if the patent will be approved or not, but I feel as though I should have been listed jointly at the very least.

Ironically, the current form of the tonerite is actually a reduction of original idea I had as far as the device, but Augi and Edward being engineers decided on a design that would be easier to manufacture resulting in the "block" design.

Anyway, I'm just venting. I guess seeing all the success it has had and not being acknowledged for our contributions to it pisses me off.

To be continued...

----------


## CharlesW

I'd like to thank those of you splashing the sour grapes. You've made my decision on how to proceed.

/vent

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## Paul Hostetter

Charles, I didn't have a problem with what you wrote. I'm not sure how much of it was really appropriate for general consumption, but it seemed truthful, not bitter or slanderous. It's not like Tesla and Edison, anyway!  :Disbelief:

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## Cheryl Watson

> True. But having bought and used a Tonerite, I think it might be pretty difficult to adapt the 'odd' shape of some of those devices to achieve the same results. HaHaHa



Oh, GAAAWWWD!  :Redface:  Too funny!!   :Laughing: 

Yeah, the Tonerite WORKS!

----------


## Keith Newell

In 1970 I had an idea of "water in a can".....this was before mass produced plastic bottles.
Keith

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## mandozilla

Charles sorry you didn't get in on the Tonerite Patent...I still maintain that there must be a good reason why. All I can say is that it is *STILL* inappropriate to engage in personal attacks here IMHO.  :Crying: 

Just so you don't feel completely left out...*HERE'S MINE!*  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing: 

 :Mandosmiley:

----------


## pops1

I just set an aquarium air pump on the strings above the bridge, the top, and back is vibrating nicely, using the strings to transmit the vibration. We'll see if it works.

----------


## mandozilla

Just make sure you don't get any fish poop on your mando...it can play hell with the finish!  :Laughing: 

But seriously, interesting idea...hope it works for you.  :Cool: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Amandalyn

> I just set an aquarium air pump on the strings above the bridge, the top, and back is vibrating nicely, using the strings to transmit the vibration. We'll see if it works.


You guys crack me up :Laughing:

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## pops1

If i had a Mix i could fill it with water and put some fish inside and use the air pump to not only vibrate the top, but give the fish some air.  :Laughing: 
This is not my good mando by the way, but it is newer so is a good test to see if i can save $290.

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## Rick Turner

Fill the mando with water and put the fish in it.   Put a side port in but glaze it in plexiglas...

Mandoquarium!

----------


## mandozilla

Whoa! A clear mandolin...now that would be novel and so would a mandolin shaped aquarium...or a clear mandolin with a built in de-damper...or a combination de-damper aquarium pump...what was the subject of this thread? Oh yeah! The Tonerite De-damper...I almost forgot.  :Laughing: 

BTW, I've had my Tonerite going on my beater...all I can say is it continues to impress me.  :Grin: 

 :Mandosmiley:

----------


## papawhisky

> Can any of you who have a mandolin tonerite tell me if it will  also fit on a Mandola? Or an Octave Mandolin? If it will fit these instruments also, it would sure be nice, and (for me) make the cost more acceptable for my current budget/finances. Thanks for any information.
> Jeff


JSwag-
I ordered mine last Friday and hope to have it soon.  I want it for my mandolins, but I also have an OM.  I'll try it out and let you know.

----------


## mandozilla

Hey Jeff

I don't know if it would work on a mandola or an octave, it depends on the string spacing.  :Confused: 

I've tried my Tonerite on my D35. It fits but a little off center due to the string spacing. However, I haven't figured out how to keep it in place yet as the fit isn't snug enough to hold it. I'd have to wrap something around the guitar to get her done.  :Grin: 

The Tonerite folks are developing a unit for guitars I believe and I'll probably get one of those as well...I'm sold on these darn things. (NFI)  :Laughing: 

 :Mandosmiley:

----------


## pops1

Well after just one night the fish air pump has made a difference in my mandolin. I believe that any way to vibrate the top will have the same effect. As Rick said in the old days you would put it near a stereo speaker (loud) and vibrate it that way. I remember those days and have thought of that way, but my stereo is not that loud these days. If i play my old Gibson, it only vibrates the top nicely when i play chords and not when i play single notes, since that's what i do mostly i'm sure that the air pump would help that even tho it sounds great and has been broken in for at least 80 years. Bottom line, if you can afford it buy one, if not there is always the air pump for $10 or play like carazy 20 hours a day.  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## rgray

How about putting the mandolin in front of a powered subwoofer?  My home theater receiver has a feature to calibrate the volume level from each of the surround speakers.  I can push a continuous signal to the powered subwoofer and use the subwoofer's own volume control to increase the intensity.  All you have to hear is the low level subwoofer vibration - not ear-splitting music.

Another option might be home theater tactile transducers.  These things are mounted to the frame of your furniture and wired to the amp to shake your butt when the bombs go off during the movie.

----------


## mandozilla

> Another option might be home theater tactile transducers. These things are mounted to the frame of your furniture and wired to the amp to shake your butt when the bombs go off during the movie.


Whoa rgray, I think the theater tactile transducer thingy might deserve some investigation. :Disbelief: 

Can they be mounted somehow on a mandolin without damaging it? What do they look like? :Confused: 




> How about putting the mandolin in front of a powered subwoofer


Yeah rgray folks do that with good results that can't be proven either...I think the Tonerite accomplishes the same thing much faster. :Grin: 

 :Mandosmiley:

----------


## rgray

> Whoa rgray, I think the theater tactile transducer thingy might deserve some investigation.
> Can they be mounted somehow on a mandolin without damaging it? What do they look like?




More tongue in cheek.  Cheaper than the Tonerite at about $99 (www.buttkicker.com) but are meant to be permanently mounted onto furniture using screws.  I'm sure that someone can rig up something if they already owned one.




> Yeah rgray folks do that with good results that can't be proven either...I think the Tonerite accomplishes the same thing much faster.


It just seemed that a subwoofer would be better than a standard speaker by just putting out the low freq vibrations without all of the other sound.  Might have to try it with my two subs when I get my mando.  Just a way to combine the mando experience  :Mandosmiley:  with the home theater experience :Popcorn: .

----------


## mandozilla

That looks weird rgray, I mean interesting.  :Disbelief:  Maybe the screws could be swapped out for suction cups...I duuno.  :Confused: 


BTW, I know the Tonerite seems pricey but occassionaly they have sales or specials...When I got mine, around six weeks ago, they were on sale for $199.00...still pricey but I went for it. I'm glad I did. Would I have paid full price? Absolutely!  :Laughing: 

 :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Amandalyn

That Buttkicker is appropriately named......... :Wink:

----------


## kestrel

I just took my mandolin down to the crossroads at midnight, last night, and now it's louder; sounds amazingly better; has more sustain; phenomenal chop; now growls while it barks; changes it's own strings;  the balance, from bass to treble is purrfect; intonation is a small fraction of a cent at every fret; it's always in tune, and this morning it was playing "Rawhide" in the case, before I got up. It didn't cost me 300-bucks. I just traded my soul for it. "I wasn't using it." :Laughing: 

Three-hundred dollars for a vibrator, and 134 posts about it. Man, I really don't mean to offend anybody, but isn't there just a little bit of weird going on here? :Disbelief:

----------


## mandozilla

Okay so we know you don't buy into de-damping already...but I wonder why it is you keep popping up in these de-damper/Tonerite threads? I don't like emandos but I don't go there and stir up ****.  :Grin: 

I think the compulsion to be contrary and start arguments is a sort of mental illness. Can any shrinks out there confirm this?  :Disbelief: 

Bottom line Kestrel, if you think de-damping and the Tonerite  is a complete waste of time, why do you waste your time ogreing around these types of threads...Kestrel! Fly away little gremlin!  :Laughing: 

 :Mandosmiley: 

(Oops, sorry Lee.)

----------


## Michael Lewis

The reason there are so many posts on this subject is that there is a lot of interest.  Even the skeptics are interested or they wouldn't post in this thread.

The point I don't understand is the constant request for PROOF, MEASURED NUMBERS.  Nobody asks for that from a ToneGard because you can hear it, and the tonal improvement is similar with the Tonerite I think.  If anyone wants measured proof they can make the measurements them selves, then they will not doubt the  results, not so much from the figures but because they can hear the difference. :Coffee:

----------


## Mike Snyder

It's fairly obvious to me, now, that Tonerite has data that proves their claims. It is not offered up, probably for proprietary reasons. The opinions of M.Lewis, R.Turner, K.Newell and f5loar were enough for me. I plan to purchase one, although the money would be better spent on instruction, no doubt.

----------


## Amandalyn

Thank you M Snyder & MLewis- well put. Here's what I said in another thread:

 Re: TONERITE DE-DAMPER - Results, anyone?
With my personal involvement in the development the Mandolin model Tonerite, I suspect you will find my comments biased. First let me say that I am primarily a musician, and yes I have a Music Business. But, I am also a skeptic and would not recommend or endorse something I didn't completely believe in. Some have suggested a test like "Folded Path" recommened, and at one time I was going to do that myself, but not having the proper sound equipment to make a controlled test, opted out. The proof is in the usage and positive response I have gotten from clients,and also the scientific tests that the company has made. For me the most useful quality of the Tonerite, is when I pick up my mandolin to play it is open and responsive, giving me more confidence and enjoyable playability. Most will attest an instrument that sounds better makes you play better.

----------


## kestrel

_“Okay so we know you don't buy into de-damping already...but I wonder why it is you keep popping up in these de-damper/Tonerite threads? I don't like emandos but I don't go there and stir up ****.  ”_

Actually, what it is that I don’t buy into is not de-damping, but paying $300.00 to buy a vibrator for my mandolin. I’m not saying that others shouldn’t, but I figure I have just as much right to state my opinion, as you have to spout off about everything, anything, and nothing. If you don’t like the way I say it, I see that as being your problem. And, yeah, alright – IMO, “The Emperor has no clothes.”

_”I think the compulsion to be contrary and start arguments is a sort of mental illness. Can any shrinks out there confirm this?  ”_

Now, here, my man, I think you’ve stepped way over the line. But, you seem to do that quite regularly, so I’ll just attempt to pass it off as - you don’t really know any better. I believe that before making such ignorant comments on a public forum, I would question what appears to be your intense need to be noticed, by being apparently unable to make even the simplest statement without attempting to use as many emoticons as possible ; bright red, bold, fonts; and every other outlandish attention getter at your disposal. Uhhhhh. Any “shrinks” out there care to confirm this? 

_”Bottom line Kestrel, if you think de-damping and the Tonerite is a complete waste of time, why do you waste your time ogreing around these types of threads...Kestrel! Fly away little gremlin!  ”_

I happen to come here to the “Builders and Repair” section to learn about “Building” and Repairing” of instruments, from folks who actually know what they are talking about. I can’t, for the life of me, understand how discussing a commercial device to tickle your mandolin into thinking it’s a Loar, has ANYTHING to do with building and repairing mandolins. I have always been under the impression that that is what the “Equipment” and General Mandolin Discussion” sections are for. I’ve read everything in “Building and Repair” for going on three-years now, so I naturally drop in to see what’s so fascinating about a Tone-Rite. When I find that the class clown, who seems to think he’s the Marx Brothers, Jim Varney, and Larry The Cable Guy, all rolled into one, I find it to be so absolutely annoying that it brings out the worst in me. 

"Bottom line", Godzilla: I will now be bowing out of this conversation. I have far better things to do, but thanks for attempting to – enlighten?

Gene

----------


## Amandalyn

> >I happen to come here to the Builders and Repair section to learn about Building and Repairing of instruments, from folks who actually know what they are talking about. I cant, for the life of me, understand how discussing a commercial device to tickle your mandolin ..........has ANYTHING to do with building and repairing mandolins.>


The reason it's in this forum is because it is of interest to luthiers. They know about the opening up process. It's the luthiers I first sought after to try out the Tonerite, and they have responded in kind. FYI-The topic is also discussed in the" equipment" forum.

I'd also like to add- I never thought I'd pay $35.00 for a Blue Chip Pick - but I did and it's well worth it- it's all I use now. :Whistling:

----------


## Mike Snyder

kestrel, sorry, but I take offense of yer reference to those HACKS in context concerning the Marxs Brothers. Please!

----------


## Paul Hostetter

At the risk of being a wet blanket in this lovefest, I just finished doing the Toneright Treatment to a third instrument (3-5 days each) and I don't really think it did much at all. In fairness, the instruments, two guitars and a mandolin, were good ones to begin with. They went in sounding A-OK, came out about the same. A change of strings would result in a more dramatic improvement.

----------


## Frank Russell

Thanks Kestrel, you read my mind.  Not so much about the Tonerite, I'll wait until I see one, but the other stuff you were talking about was just what I was thinking.  Frank

----------


## foldedpath

> The point I don't understand is the constant request for PROOF, MEASURED NUMBERS.  Nobody asks for that from a ToneGard because you can hear it, and the tonal improvement is similar with the Tonerite I think.


It's the elapsed time required by the process that makes it different. The principal behind the ToneGard can be demonstrated before purchase, with a simple test. Press the mandolin against your belly, then hold it away from you while playing it. If you have a mandolin where the back resonance adds noticeably to the tone, and you don't normally hold the mandolin away from your body when playing, then a ToneGard is likely to be a worthwhile purchase. If you don't hear a difference, a ToneGard probably wouldn't do anything. It doesn't rely on comparisons over time.

Anecdotal claims for de-damping processes are all based on what people remember an instrument sounding like days ago, weeks ago, months ago. Human memory is fallible, and it's also subject to confirmation bias and cultural reinforcement -- the idea that instruments always break in over time, and the corollary idea that instruments need to "wake up" when they haven't been played for a while (when it might actually be the player that's waking up). Blind comparison of recordings isn't subject to memory errors or emotional bias. 




> If anyone wants measured proof they can make the measurements them selves, then they will not doubt the  results, not so much from the figures but because they can hear the difference.


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The burden is on those making the claim, not the skeptics. Sorry to insert a stock answer, but that's really the case here. 

Nobody (including me) complains when someone makes an anecdotal claim like "my mandolin sounds better after X," when X is a different set of strings, or a new type of pick, or a different playing technique. That's a personal opinion, and it's related to all sorts of subjective factors, including the style of music you like to play. We all have our subjective opinions, and they're all valid (for the individual).

But when someone claims that X brand of string will sound wonderful for _everyone_, or X type of pick will work for _everyone_... and that (unlike the belly-press-test for the ToneGard) the only way to find out is to buy one... now you're getting into a realm of an extraordinary claim that is going to raise some eyebrows, and ideally requires some demonstration. This Tonerite vibrator isn't a $3 pick. It costs a bit more, and it requires an investment of time and effort to use. 

"Argument from authority" doesn't work either, because while some very well-respected luthiers and players advocate the process, there's a ton of others who don't, and seem to get by with playing an instrument normally, without mechanical enhancements. 

Over in the Gearslutz forum, people often post blind recordings of different microphones or preamps so people can guess what they're hearing. It's a reality check on marketing claims. The methodology isn't always perfect, but it can help shoot down bogus claims of vast superiority for certain products. And it can at least act as an initial filter for making purchasing decisions. It's curious why, with so much to gain from a demonstration, the providers of de-damping gadgets and services don't want to provide this kind of demonstration.

Finally, there's something that defenders of the process don't often address, and that's the question of "what if it does make a change in my mandolin, but it's a different change than I'd get by just playing it?" And most importantly, how do I know that the change wouldn't sound worse than just playing it in normally? The continued response by advocates -- "just try it!" doesn't address this at all. It's another area where some clear demonstrations of improvement, for (ideally) several different tested mandolins, would reduce the skepticism.

----------


## Paul Hostetter

> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The burden is on those making the claim, not the skeptics. Sorry to insert a stock answer, but that's really the case here.


It would indeed be extraordinary if there was a unassailable way to document the sound of an instrument, before or after, in any meaningful way, but I really don't think there is. I feel that all we have is our ears and our brains. I trust mine pretty well, but in the spirit of YMMV, it has to end there. Technology is never going to take up the slack between our subjective judgment and our fondest wishes for Scientific Veracity very well. 

Excellent post, thank you.

----------


## mandozilla

> "Bottom line", Godzilla:


Uh, that would be mandozilla thank you very much.  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing: 
 :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Rick Lindstrom

Foldedpath-

You make a strong argument that the effects of a Tonerite, or any other device for improving the "sound" of an instrument, are completely subjective. I entirely agree.

Logically, since it's a subjective issue, skeptical arguments of those who haven't experienced it subjectively are baseless.

I have a Tonerite, and subjectively I feel that it performs more or less as advertised. I'm fortunate to be in a place in my life where the purchase price represents pocket change for me, so I don't feel compelled to claim that it works just because I spent my hard earned lucre on it.

Buy one, try it and form a subjective opinion. Then argue the merits or lack thereof. 

Rick

----------


## Keith Newell

Personally I hope nobody buys them and everyone forgets this topic....erase this from your minds please.

 Now with that done can I interest you in a new mandolin? What? Yes, it is new. ....Why thank you yes, all my mandolins sound like this....What you say?....it sounds broken in?.....well, I can verify that it is only 3 weeks old...Why yes I do take Paypal, Postal Money orders and cash..... :Mandosmiley: 

Keith

----------


## tomttomttomt

I have 2 mandolins that sound very similar in volume and tone.  I bought a $4 vibrating fish tank air pump and put it on mandolin A.  Left it on there for about a week and compared the sound to mandolin B.  Definately an audible difference.  Both mandolins were strung with new strings at the same time.  After some close comparing I believe that the difference in sound may be contributed to the vibrations of the pump ageing or  playing in the new strings. Whether it changed the wood or not,  who knows .  I am now playing mandolin B and will see how it compares to mandolin A in a week or so.

----------


## mandozilla

Do you have any photos of how you attached the aquarium pump to your mandolin?  :Grin: 

 :Coffee:  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## tomttomttomt

No photo but I simply layed the pump on the mando in the area where you normally pick and closed the case lid on it (gently)

----------


## mandozilla

> No photo but I simply layed the pump on the mando in the area where you normally pick and closed the case lid on it


On the strings or the top plate? The Tonerite attaches to the strings right at the bridge...the bridge vibrates and transmits those vibration to the top plate...just like when you're playing...try to figure a way to stick your pump on/near the bridge. I suppose you could stick your pump directly to the top plate but I don't know if that would be as effective...Dunno?  :Grin: 

 :Coffee:  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## gregjones

> At the risk of being a wet blanket in this lovefest, I just finished doing the Toneright Treatment to a third instrument (3-5 days each) and I don't really think it did much at all. In fairness, the instruments, two guitars and a mandolin, were good ones to begin with. They went in sounding A-OK, came out about the same. A change of strings would result in a more dramatic improvement.


That's enough for me to forget about it.

I only know of Paul.  I have never met, talked to, or corresponded with him.  Everything I have ever read that he has written that I know anything about, I agree with what he writes.  Enough so that I respect his opinion and follow his advice concerning things I know nothing about.

There are a few other cafe members I hold in the same regard--I accept their word as gold.

----------


## mandozilla

My main mando has been in the shop all week and I just got her back today. Before I took it in I needed something to play with in its absence. I've got a decent beater but I decided to try and resurrect an old mando that I thought was never going to be played again. 

So, I have this old Kasuga F5 copy that I got in 1978(?)...it was my first mandolin and it's what I cut my teeth on. Anyway, this Kasuga sustained some body damage at the bottom point due to an assisted 'fall' to the concrete back in 1981. 

A crack on the sound board at the bottom ff hole, pieces of binding missing, and the point chewed up a bit. I did some (very amateur) repairs to put her back together but I completely lost interest in playing it due to the damage. It was a decent sounding and playing mando for a student but I was ready to move up and that's when I got my FIRST Kettler (1982). 

I hadn't touched, tuned, or played it since 1982. It has either remained in its case or hung on the wall in the last 27 years. So I strung her up with a new set of J75's, and adjusted the bridge for intonation and action as best I could. It sounded pretty dead...not much volume and the tone was pretty wimpy...not what it sounded like way back when which I attributed to the damage.

About a week before I handed over my Kettler for the set-up, I put the Tonerite on the resurrected Kasuga and let her go. It shut the de-damper off the same day I took my Kettler to the shop and I played it all last week. 

The de-damping woke her up to the point where I was surprised by the volume...pretty loud...made me happy. The tone was better but not really where i'd have liked it to be, a bit un-even across the courses but improved a little more with heavy playing through the week. I was prepared to use it at a jam this Sunday with no reservations but I got the call today that my Kettler was ready for pick up and I'll be taking that.

Of course once again, I can't prove what I'm saying but I'm telling you the difference between the mando that hasn't been touched in 27 years and the same mando after a week of de-damping is pretty dramatic. I'll be using that Kasuga as my favorite beater now and I'm going to get her a real set-up real soon.  :Grin: 

 :Coffee:  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## cedarhog

I'm sure I'll eventually get a tonerite....cause I believe its a for real product. But for fun I am gonna do one experiment before I do. I'm gonna go to the store and buy 3 or 4..cheap vibrating tooth brushes and rubberband them or something so they make the strings vibrate....if it works great ...if it don't...I'll use it for my teeth...either way its a win/win situation. :Grin:

----------


## Michael Lewis

Battery power will likely run down before much change in the instrument can develop.  The process takes from a few hours to a few days, depending on how responsive the instrument is.

----------


## Amandalyn

here's some new pics of the Tonerite mandolin model.

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## Amandalyn

Here's another one. Front view. Please visit my website for more info.

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## Paul Statman

I just ordered one coz they're now on sale for *$195.50* with a set of strings thrown out (in?)! Only when ordering from their site at The Music Tree
www.musicgrowshere.com


I'll let you know how it works out, folks..

----------


## P Josey

I'm wondering if any Tonerite owners have put a tuner on their mandolins to see what note the instument is vibrating while using the Tonerite.

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## SternART

It has a slider, to vary the intensity.......so I think the note varies......

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## barney 59

SternArt, have you used a Tonerite? I understand you have sent instruments to Siminoff for dedamping. I read Siminoff's regimen and it involves much more than just vibrating. Artificial string plucking and such.  If you have done both, how do they compare?

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## Rick Turner

"The pump don't work, 'cause the Vandals took the handles...Look out kid; it's something you did..."

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## Scotti Adams

Ive used the ol stereo blast method for yrs...set the mando in front of a speaker..find some music with a heavy bass beat...forget about it for awhile. Ive seen very noticable differences. Doesnt cost me a dime except for the electric it cost to run the stereo.

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## Paul Hostetter

> It has a slider, to vary the intensity.......so I think the note varies......


Not that could discern. Just louder/softer, more/less. But I think we're in the realm of True Belief.

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## SternART

Indeed I've tried the Tonerite.......and I have noticed that my instruments seem more "ready to play" or like they do after an hour of pickin'......... I definitely noticed more of a difference with Siminoff's dedamping.

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## Amandalyn

From what I know about the Siminoff method, it's an intense variety of de-damping treatments. While this is an "all at once" treatment, I'm sure over a period of time the instrument, if not played all the time would go to sleep again. The advantage of the Tonerite is you have it to use continuosly at will, when needed, and don't have to send your instrument away.

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## Paul Hostetter

My take on it was: immediately after a week of being strapped to the thing, it indeed felt "'ready to play' or like they do after an hour of pickin'," but just a few hours later, at rest without the gizmo, it returned to feeling the same as it would have had it never been hooked up to the gizmo in the first place. The Toneright's function as a substitute for actual playing is easy enough to understand. What's harder to understand is why anyone would think the effects would be permanent. Some instruments I have known take an hour of playing to get them to wake up to this point. Others take a few minutes. Some don't seem to need to be played at all, they just spring to life. Does an instrument really need a week of mechanical buzzing to gain the equivalent of an hour's worth of actual play? 

Believe me, I really wanted this thing to be a revelation, but it just seems to be a little vibrator that, at best, simulates play, that's not significantly different than aquarium pumps, home theater tactile transducers, and being strapped to hi-fi speakers when you're not home. Or simply playing the instrument in question for awhile. 

Could it be that one might be more inclined to believe in some product after having spent a bunch of money on it? Perhaps, because I got to try it on a bunch of mandolins and guitars without having to actually buy the thing, I'm inclined - or at least able - to be more skeptical?

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## Keith Newell

The Real question is Paul, the "bunch of instruments" you talk about, were they your regular players that you know intimately of some instruments you played a few times and then played again after 3-5 days and comparing the distant memory of a slightly played instrument to what you hear? I have tried the Tonerite on some instruments that I pick up and play every single day and have played in jam sessions of up to 22 players or as few as 3 and have heard a difference across the spectrum in all situations as have others (that listened and played it) that don't even know I used it.
 Is this a case of me spending money and wanting it to work? I have anticipated more from many other situations and been disappointed. This time  I spent the money expecting a minor change and was pleasantly surprised. The product was never marketed as anything more then a vibrator with variable amplitude, so you were surprised that is was a variable amplitude vibrator? 
 One nice thing I have noticed is that after using for a a few days the effects have lasted now for many weeks. Could a lesser quality instrument maybe require it on a constant basis? That is a question that could be explored by those set up to do that.
 The funny thing is my wife says I am a pessimist yet when something works and I like it I am accused of being an optimist....you can't win in this world I am thinking :/ 
Keith
http://www.newellmandolin.com
sorry for no attaching a cheesy derogatory image....

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## Paul Hostetter

Keith - I used it on instruments I knew well enough (new to me, belonging to customers) to know I liked them already. They weren't in huge need of waking up. I used it on a mandolin and a guitar I play all the time - my own instruments. Ditto. I used it on a new mandolin and a new guitar (meaning: new in box) after acquainting myself with them, that felt new and raw and tight, which is no surprise. I used the same strings before and after - actually changed nothing on any of them. In other words, I gave them as much of a test drive as I could manage in a proscribed period of time. I think I explained this all already. And what my conclusions were, and why. At the risk of being redundant, the new instruments made a little progress, I suppose, though I think they would have anyway, just by being played. The older/better instruments showed no immediate or lasting effects.

Buying one of these items won't break the bank. Using one won't, at the very least, hurt anything. If you like it and it's doing something for you, cool. All I know is, if it didn't convince me on the experiments I've already done, I don't see the point of buying one and continuing to try until something profound happens. What if it never does? I suspect I (or their owners) would be better off playing them to get that result. And I can at least buy a lot of fresh strings for the price of one of these.

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## mandozilla

*barney 59 said;*



> Artificial string plucking and such. If you have done both, how do they compare?


The Siminoff de-damping method does what you say, the result is it vibrates the top plate. The Tonerite vibrates the top plate without "artificially plucking the strings" as you said. Same goal, same results just different method. Dang! I was in a Jam with Mr. Siminoff at a BG fest last week...should have asked him his views but didn't think to and was having a lot of fun jamming anyway.

While I highly respect Paul H as a knowledgable and skilled luthier (and I really do!), I know MY instrument. I don't need to justify my expenditure (got it for $200 BTW)...if it didn't work for me I just wouldn't use it...I've been using it with satisfying results for several months...keeps MY mando in 'multiple hour played in' condition...I haven't noticed the effect tapering off cause it's on the T'rite a lot...Guess I'l leave it off for a while and see what happens.  :Grin: 

 :Coffee:  :Popcorn:

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## Amandalyn

[QUOTE=Keith Newell:sorry for no attaching a cheesy derogatory image....[/QUOTE]

Thanks For That!!!

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## Kerry Krishna

So it's taken 4 months to get 6 pages over here. Over on the 'Collings Forum' ( powered by EVE) they have filled up 7 pages in just three days. No real controversy, just some debate about how someone over there will not use the machine on their guitars till it is proven to be non harmful. Most have been here to read what we have posted over here.I would'nt hesitate to put it on any of my expencive axes, but thats me. Just so you know....

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## kestrel

In light of the subject matter, I think Paul's pictures are in quite good taste.

Still can't see the relevance to "Builders and Repair", but think it's hilarious, anyway, and it's an absolutely fantastic - and totally free - advertising ploy!

Kudos to whomever came up with the idea.

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## Paul Hostetter

I find it interesting the the first of the two keeps changing. Every time I look, it's a different image. Oh well, it was _supposed_ to be the Emperor's New Clothes. 

Does someone here doubt Pyramid Power?  :Disbelief:

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## MikeEdgerton

> Does someone here doubt Pyramid Power?


It's probably me. I have this bad karma thing going.  :Chicken:

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## Keith Newell

I think the best advertising was the genius that thought up the KFC free meals coupons. They had to know that they wouldn't be prepared for how many would be redeemed and look at all the free advertising they got out of that fiasco. :Laughing: 
Keith

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## foldedpath

> Does someone here doubt Pyramid Power?


Oh no, not me.  :Smile:  Following these ideas to their logical conclusions, here's a device for dedamping your PA and recording cables:

http://www.audioexcellenceaz.com/aud...ablecooker.htm

I kid, I kid...

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## Artist3

My two cents...

I'm considering getting a Tone-Rite just to wake up my instruments before I need them. They do fall asleep and I hate to use "valuable" playing time to wake them up. I'd rather start off right away with an instrument that's wide awake. If Tone-Rite does this, I'm happy! 

I always thought this was the main point to have one in the first place. I certainly don't expect it to make them any better than they are.

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## Cheryl Watson

Artist3, yes, I agree, after Toneriting a mandolin, it is only the player that needs to warm up.  I have also found that it helps break in a new mandolin (and guitar) but you are right, it is not the main point.  I am such a cynic, but I have to admit, I really think this product works.  The two biggest changes I hear are fatter tone and a quicker response.

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## Artist3

What's with these guys? I don't want to pay for long distance calls so I've tried contacting them using their "contact us" form, once last October and again a week ago. 

I never got anything by email and when I went to check on the status on their site it said "resolved" eventhough I never got any response.

This "My Support Tickets" system of theirs sure is a strange way for customer contacts. I wonder if they ever read their system? There's no email address anywhere... Any ideas? 

Anyway, what I wanted to know is where online can I find one in Europe?

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## Rick Proctor

After reading all of the discussions on the Tonerite device, I decided to try one out. It definitely "wakes" the mandolin up. I used it for the recommended 72 hours and was pleased by the results. To my less than perfect ears, my mandolin sounds better than it did. It definitely plays better. It didn't turn my Michael Kelly into a 20's Loar signed F5, but it is improved. 

From my way of the thinking (which could be seriously flawed), using this device for so many hours is a lot like playing the instrument for close to the same amount of time (with the exception of improving my technique). I'm lucky if I can get an hour of playing in a day. The Tonerite allows me to keep the mandolin in more of a "ready to play" state. 

All that being said, I'm not planning on using it on my EM-150. I don't have to play too much to wake it up.

rick

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## Nelson Peddycoart

I have ordered a Tonerite for the mandolin and will post the before and after mp3s.  I have a 1923 Gibson A model that has been dormant for a few years and a new Gibson F5G, so we should be able to put this thing to a pretty good test.

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## Bob Laughlin

I borrowed a friends guitar model tonerite - he swears by it - and the testimonials by people like kronos quartet and eric schoenberg are particularly impressive - i used it full-on overnight on a guitar with no noticable effect and for 3 days on a mandolin (the guitar model seems to work fine on the smaller instrument - but perhaps the model frequencies are different?) - again no noticeable effect - both instruments sounded good before and the same afterwards - perhaps it is different with instruments that have not been played for awhile - or perhaps it's taking advantage of a phenomena i've noticed - maybe other builders have noticed as well although i've never heard anybody mention it - which is you can pick up an instrument, esp. a recently completed one, in the morning and it sounds like s**t, pick it in the evening and it sounds fantastic - the times are incidental - i don't know if thats psychological, barometric pressure, humidity, temperature or whatever but it's a 'real' phenomena - as i mentioned my friend swears by it and uses it on all his instruments - unless i am convinced by personal use or scientific specs/testing i remain sceptical - astrology?

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## 300win

All tones/sounds/notes coming from a instrument is magic, no matter what is used to excite the wood, it's all magic. Music is in the air all the time, a good instrument taps into that. And ya'll thought I was/am crazy right ? Has anyone ever noticed when they get a very great instrument in their hands, it is so easy to play, and so responsive to the slightest touch, that there are tunes and notes in it that you never found before ?, thats magic.

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## Paul Hostetter

Whew, that was one long sentence. And it ended with a question mark, yes?

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## George Roberts

"The willing suspension of disbelief" is a powerful force.
It would be nice to see the equivalent of a double blinded crossover study.
I have 3 mandolins that have not been out of their cases in 40 years.  They should certainly qualify as "asleep."
Can anyone come up with "study" ?

George

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## Paul Hostetter

The technology for one doesn't exist, and even if it did, you’d need thousands of instruments, not just three, to have it mean anything.

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## George Roberts

Anectdotal accounts are subjective and do not qualify as evidence.  If we are agreed that a more scientific study is not feasible, (it would take thousands of instruments, or else two completely identical instruments to achieve this - again, neither is feasible,) then it comes down to a matter of belief.  I, personally, like the Emperor's taste in new clothes.

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## John Soper

A Randomized Placebo Controlled Double Blinded test would only require circa 250 subjects in each arm to "prove" that a 5 % difference in tone could be achieved after treatment with the Toneright, with a p<0.05 (1:20 chance that the conclusion reached from the study was in error)... of course, you'd have to define the parameters involved (because you can't study everything) and assign judges to do the "before" and "after" measurements (not just subjective impressions).

Ain't gonna happen and I predict (p<0.001) that we'll have another discussion thread on the Toneright- either on this forum or another within the next year...

Like many things in this life, the effects of the Toneright need to be taken (or dismissed) on the basis of a few observations that are extremely subjective - whatever floats your boat.

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## Kevin K

What's the latest on the tonerite useage?

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## Amandalyn

> What's the latest on the tonerite useage?


 I have heard mostly very positive results, did have one returned that said it didn't work for him. The MMR (Musical Musicians Review) sited Tonerite as "2010's Most Innovative Product" award. A new endorser is on board: "After one week with the ToneRite® on the guitar, the voice of my LaVenezia opened-up beautifully!"
Robert 'Bob' Benedetto, Benedetto Guitars, Inc.

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## Big Joe

I have not personally used these yet so I cannot yet speak of any improvement or problems with the Tone Rite.  However, I will have one for mandolin and one for guitar for testing in the shop tomorrow.  I plan on testing them on a few instruments to see if it is a help.  I have no doubt they could be useful, but I really cannot say at this point.  I will post what I discover in a couple weeks.  I want to put it on an instrument and leave it for a week as the company wishes.  I would like to try at least 2 mandolins and 2 guitars to see if there is an improvement.  I have been a bit skeptical but only because I have seen so many gimmicks over the years.  This one actually does make some sense though.  In any case, I will report my findings in a couple weeks.

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## Chuck Naill

Is not the basis of the theory that play time improves the tone so that something that mimics play time would also improve? Therefore, the premiss that play time improves tone must be substantiated. I cannot speak for mandolins but I have played pre War Martins with very little playing time, as evidenced from their pristine nature, and they sound as good as those with battle scars from being used or at least handled a good deal over their 70 plus years.

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## Kevin K

I think in that case, age has helped turn the tree in a real guitar.

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## barney 59

I have a couple of old accutron watches that since the disappearance of mercury oxide batteries ( replaced by silver oxide batteries) no longer keep accurate time but they still hum. These watches operate with an internal tuning fork and if they come into contact with something that resonates are quite loud. If you set them on a wooden nightstand they can keep you awake at night. I have fallen asleep with one on and you can hear it through a pillow. I dug them out wanting to try them as a homemade Tonerite but the batteries are dead and I have to hunt new ones. Any opinions on how these might perform as a dedampening device. When I get them going I plan on testing them with a strobe tuner to figure out what frequency they operate at. What frequency(s) would be the best for mandolin? or guitar? or what frequency does a tonerite operate at?

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## Tavy

> I have not personally used these yet so I cannot yet speak of any improvement or problems with the Tone Rite.  However, I will have one for mandolin and one for guitar for testing in the shop tomorrow.  I plan on testing them on a few instruments to see if it is a help.  I have no doubt they could be useful, but I really cannot say at this point.  I will post what I discover in a couple weeks.  I want to put it on an instrument and leave it for a week as the company wishes.  I would like to try at least 2 mandolins and 2 guitars to see if there is an improvement.  I have been a bit skeptical but only because I have seen so many gimmicks over the years.  This one actually does make some sense though.  In any case, I will report my findings in a couple weeks.


With before and after recordings maybe?

Sceptically yours, John.

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## Rick Proctor

> I have not personally used these yet so I cannot yet speak of any improvement or problems with the Tone Rite.  However, I will have one for mandolin and one for guitar for testing in the shop tomorrow.  I plan on testing them on a few instruments to see if it is a help.  I have no doubt they could be useful, but I really cannot say at this point.  I will post what I discover in a couple weeks.  I want to put it on an instrument and leave it for a week as the company wishes.  I would like to try at least 2 mandolins and 2 guitars to see if there is an improvement.  I have been a bit skeptical but only because I have seen so many gimmicks over the years.  This one actually does make some sense though.  In any case, I will report my findings in a couple weeks.


As a customer of Big Joe's I trust his judgment on this. As an amateur mandolin picker who owns a tonerite, I can attest to the fact it improved the tone of my Michael Kelly. Now the whole mandolin rings when i play it and it sounds about as good as it's probably going to without taking it to Big Joe for further tweaking. I also tried it with my 69 Gibson EM-150 and couldn't tell much of a difference. 

I look forward to reading the professional opinions on the tonerite.

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## Kevin K

Big Joe,
What's the latest on the tone rite experiment?

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## barney 59

No one responded to my question regarding an accutron watch as a dedampening devise so I went ahead and tried it. I have two and both seem to operate at the same frequency which is a little short of an f# on the 4th octave or at 359 hertz. If I put them on an instrument the frequency doesn't change. The same thing going in is what is coming out. I thought that it might vary depending whether it was in contact with the body only or the strings or against the bridge or on a different instrument but it is always f# only the volume changes depending on where it is placed. The pitch is high which seems in contrast to a low hum described with using a tonerite and if in contact with the body or bridge you can hear it across the room, you can hear it when it's in a closed case enough so for me to move them out of my bedroom at night. I've had them run on various instruments for over 24hours-instuments that I use regularly and some that have been tucked away for quite sometime and I have found that I get positive results across the board. Instruments that I play regularly seem a little brighter. Instruments that haven't been played for sometime definitely sound better than they did before I tried the watch experiment. So what I have is a continuously vibrating tuning fork operating at 359 hertz.  I've seen references here about people trying fish tank pumps and cordless toothbrushes but did anyone actually try them? From reading this forum you get the impression that a great deal of research went into the Tonerite so that it would have the greatest effect on the particular instrument that it is designed for but they don't seem to want to divulge much in the way of technical data . I'm a little surprised that no one here couldn't help themselves and ended up tearing into a Tonerite to see what makes them tick. I'd still like to know if anyone has figured out what these things operate at and particularly why one frequency is better than another?

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## Kevin K

They probably have the unit potted so no tampering can be done.  I've asked directly about frequency used etc but no real direct answer was given just that it was greatly studied and very efficient for the instrument in question.

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## barney 59

I finally looked up technical data for the Accutron and found that they operate at 360 hertz which pleased me to find out that my stroboconn came out so close--it's a dial -what I read would depend as much on how clean my glasses are or whether I was sitting slightly to the left or the right when I read it. I think it should be pretty easy to figure out --run a Tonerite and attach a clip on mic from your instrument to a strobetuner. That should give you the note and the octave then all you have to do is look at a chart to know the occillations.  Before I fired up the stobetuner I tried using a clip on tuner directly to the watch and got guess what? Just short of a F#!  I know of a guy that makes weird new age stuff and made a fortune at it--you know --like pyramid power, mentioned earlier -- he professes all this scientific background -he sold these tapes --probably cds now--these are supposed to have been exposed to special magical noble gases and such and sold as sets and not cheap either. They are BLANK! People buy these things and listen to NOTHING and then write a testimonial about how much better they feel! I am somewhat skeptical of people that profess science and then don't back it up with data. I think we all,or at least most of us, recognize that exercising our instruments improves their tone and playability,we know they get better with time,we know they don't sound as good if we don't play them for a while and then get better when we play them again. We know that from cause and effect-- but does the instrument react better to certain stimuli  or does any old thing produce similar results? The Tonerite is kind of cool in that it is a vibrator that is designed to attach to an instrument and there are enough people here who attest to how it improved their instruments that I have no doubt that it does, but, in my experience, so far, so does my watch.

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## David Houchens

A good friend of mine has 3 very different mandolins and told me once that C# warms his up faster.   (?)

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## Kevin K

c#, you want to explain further.....

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## Chuck Naill

I have been playing stringed instruments for 47 years and have never experienced a poor sounding instrument getting better by playing or it getting older. While my reasoning may be flawed, I cannot imagine a vibrating machine being able to over come the constructs of and instrument transforming its potential into something positive. 

My experience tells me that an instrument's sound is a result of how it was made. I don't understand why this is not better understood or at least appreciated.

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## fscotte

Well if you add in the subtle hearing loss that occurs over 47 years, which starts with diminished high frequencies, then you'd probably not notice how much better your instruments sound.

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## MikeEdgerton

If it was that subtle nobody else that was younger would notice either.

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## Big Joe

Well, I just began the tone rite experiment on an acoustic guitar and a mandolin.  The acoustic Guitar is a Custom Shop Gibson AJ that is less than 2 years old.  It is a GREAT sounding instrument to begin with but has been played very little.  When I put the tone rite on I could hear the instrument vibrate.  There is a switch to adjust the frequency of the tone rite to emphasis more bottom end or top end.  I put it for a bit more bottom end.  I don't know how well we will like hearing the guitar vibrate all day, but we will see.  It may drive the dogs nuts.  We will see about that as well.

The mandolin is a new Loar LM400, which is also a very good instrument.  I also set it up for emphasizing the bottom end.  I cannot hear it vibrate and we will see how it does as the week goes by.  What the end effect will be on either is still to be seen.

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## mtucker

> My experience tells me that an instrument's sound is a result of how it was made. I don't understand why this is not better understood or at least appreciated.


I think I agree that stringed instruments sort of 'are what they are' from inception but truly believe that the good ones, get better with time/age/play. Therefore, I might even suggest that ones that are lower on the food chain could improve somewhat, also.

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## Michael Lewis

If you have doubts about instruments opening up as they get played, go ask some of the hot mandolin slingers in some of the top touring bands.

This is only anecdotal but one of my early mandolins was not very loud or full sounding when it was new, actually it was a bit tight and choked sounding.  Now, more than 20 years later it is one of the best sounding mandolins around with clear sweet bell like highs, a healthy lower end, and lots of volume.  All the braces and seams are intact, it has been through a few sets of frets, and  has been thoroughly played for a lot of years by a very good musician.  The transformation over the years is nothing short of amazing.  It has "opened up" very nicely.

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## foldedpath

> Well, I just began the tone rite experiment on an acoustic guitar and a mandolin.  The acoustic Guitar is a Custom Shop Gibson AJ that is less than 2 years old.  It is a GREAT sounding instrument to begin with but has been played very little.  When I put the tone rite on I could hear the instrument vibrate.  There is a switch to adjust the frequency of the tone rite to emphasis more bottom end or top end.  I put it for a bit more bottom end.  I don't know how well we will like hearing the guitar vibrate all day, but we will see.  It may drive the dogs nuts.  We will see about that as well.
> 
> The mandolin is a new Loar LM400, which is also a very good instrument.  I also set it up for emphasizing the bottom end.  I cannot hear it vibrate and we will see how it does as the week goes by.  What the end effect will be on either is still to be seen.


How are you planning to evaluate the difference? Recordings? Memory?

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## Chuck Naill

> If you have doubts about instruments opening up as they get played, go ask some of the hot mandolin slingers in some of the top touring bands.
> 
> This is only anecdotal but one of my early mandolins was not very loud or full sounding when it was new, actually it was a bit tight and choked sounding.  Now, more than 20 years later it is one of the best sounding mandolins around with clear sweet bell like highs, a healthy lower end, and lots of volume.  All the braces and seams are intact, it has been through a few sets of frets, and  has been thoroughly played for a lot of years by a very good musician.  The transformation over the years is nothing short of amazing.  It has "opened up" very nicely.


I had a Gibson J-45 for 10 years which remained the same. The Martin HD-28 never changed that I had in the '80's. I did everything to that Martin I could to make it easier to play and be heard in a crowd. It never happened, then I discovered why. Martin changed its bracing size, configuration, and even added a brace from their prewar specs. Others may disagree, but how can time and play(Tonerite) overcome the effects of a piece of wood glued to the top of a sound board? 

It is well known that Sam Bush's  F5 was not as good before Norman Blake and John Hartford started whittling. I am suggesting that time and play (Tonertie) will not overcome wood thickness to transform a musical instrument and allow it to project, cut, and be heard with a light touch. 

There is also the discussion that while there is improvement to a single instrument, it may never be a good product relative to others.

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## Big Joe

An instrument that does not sound good to begin with is not likely to become a monster only by playing or a tone right.  What that does is just help it be the best it can be with what you have to work with.  However, many of these instruments can be made to be great instruments but it takes some work from one who knows what to do.  It is more than just removing wood.  It could be a number of issues, or a simple issue.  Many of the 70's Martins sounded terrible and everyone blamed overbuilding.  While that can have an effect on the instrument, the real issue in many cases was the placement of the saddle.  It was not placed in the proper place.  When the saddle is removed, the slot filled in, and the saddle put in the right place and the instrument set up properly it can be quite amazing what a difference there is in that guitar.  It can certainly do more than just playing or a tone right could, but these are for different problems.  A skilled luthier can take an instrument and determine exactly what needs to be done to make that particular instrument the best it is capable of.  

Now as to the tone right...I have had it on my Gibson Advanced Jumbo (walnut back and sides) and it seems to be louder after 24 hours.  I cannot tell any difference in tone as of yet.  However, this was a very incredible guitar to start with.  It certainly has not harmed it in any way.  It seems to be "warmed up" when you pick it up.  I will check the mandolin after I get to the shop and see if it has made any difference there in 24 hours.  I will continue to post my findings.  So far the dogs have not seemed to mind the tone rite running and the humm that was present yesterday morning was gone by the time I got home last night.  Why that happened I am not sure, but I am glad it did.  It could have become annoying  :Smile:  .

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## Charley wild

> Well if you add in the subtle hearing loss that occurs over 47 years, which starts with diminished high frequencies, then you'd probably not notice how much better your instruments sound.


Hey Chuck, this is good news! We older guys can sell our expensive instruments, make a few bucks, and then buy a Savannah or a Johnson. What the heck, we can't tell the difference anyway! lol

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## mtucker

I might even be willing to go out on a limb and suggest this phenomena occurs with slabs like old tele's, strats, pauls, etc., the more you play 'em, the better they sound.  :Mandosmiley:

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## Chuck Naill

> Hey Chuck, this is good news! We older guys can sell our expensive instruments, make a few bucks, and then buy a Savannah or a Johnson. What the heck, we can't tell the difference anyway! lol


LOL, I think you have a good point. 

For an accurate discussion concerning old vs new Martin guitars, I refer to the research of Brian Kimsey. Check out his web site, http://www.bryankimsey.com/.

And for a discussion about how removing wood transforms mandolins, here is a quote from a newsletter by George Gruhn "This time it was a 1937 F-5 and it had the braces shaved, the finish removed and the top sanded down. The "offending" parties were Norman Blake and John Hartford, and the mandolin became the famous "Hoss" owned by Sam Bush." (Newsletter #28, September 2006).

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## Big Joe

I tested the LM400 with the tone rite on it.  It has only been about 28 hours, but I wanted to do a test on each instrument every day to see if there truly seems to be any difference.  On the guitar it was not much as stated above.  The mandolin was pretty darn good to begin with but I wanted to see if it would help a new mandolin so it is on a new LM400.  When I played it today, it was louder than it usually is when first played.  The same was true with the guitar.  Is this because it is already warm?  Who knows.  I can only say it is somewhat louder.  Secondly, there is an improvement in the G string.  While it was not bad before, it was the weakest string of the pairs.  It has improved on the G string somewhat.  Could this be what accounts for the increased volume?  Possible.  I put the tone rite back on it to see if it will make any difference over the weekend.  I don't know if I will play it before Monday, but I am anxious to see if it makes any difference in the next few days.

To this point I can say it seems to affect volume and tone to some extent even with short useage.  The company recommends it be used a minimum of 72 hours and would like a full week.  I will give each a full week to see what I think.  The question I still have is whether it will make enough of a differnce to justify the cost of the tone rite and whether just playing it hard for a week would have the same result.  On some instruments just playing a bit every day can make a real difference.  With the MM's we could hear changes daily for some time.  It would be dramatic at times, less so at others.  

So far I would say the experiment has been a success from the apsect of making a differnce.  Again, if that will continue to show or not is the question, and how much difference it makes in an instrument that has had more play time than the other.  We will know soon  :Smile:  .  

Someone posted above about electric guitars changing tone with age.  That is often true, especially if they are not dipped in plastic at the factory so the wood cannot be as easily affected by daily life.  Yet, there are other factors involved as well.  Part of it is the same as acoustic instruments that the nitro or other similar finishes will continue to thin over time and eventually crack.  This can afford the wood the opportunity to vibrate a bit freer.  In addition, the electronics are also affected by time.  We had a discussion on this at the big G a number of years ago as we were trying to figure why the pickups and pots froml the 60's or late 50's sounded different from the new ones.  Electronically they should be the same.  The can measure the same and look the same, and feel the same, but that does not mean they produce the same tone.  A number of us decided it was the continued application of current through the electronics that altered them in some way.  Exactly how is hard to say, but one comment I found quite interesting was the magnetic field created with current through the pickups over time may have altered the way they respond.  Another have indicated the accumalation of dust and dirt over time may affect how the coils work.  In any case, I don't think we solved the issue iwth any scientific certainty, but those do seem to be quite logical and reasonable.  The difference in instruments that have been kept in the case and unplayed may not have the same tone differences as those which have been heavily played.  Fun speculation at the least  :Smile:  .

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## Dick Hutchings

I wonder if all that vibration is just helping the strings seat themselves better/deeper in the slots. Same thing would happen from a lot of playing.

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## buckles

Joe, I've found that the ToneRite on a mandolin seems to bring out the bass.  That might explain your Loar 400's improved G string.  I've also found that if I crank the ToneRite to its strongest setting that a mandolin becomes too bassy for my taste.  

Saying that it "warms them up" seems to about describe the result.  It's not unpleasant... :-)

I'll be curious to hear your further reports.

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## Big Joe

Day two on the Gibson Advanced Jumbo.  This guitar has walnut back and sides so has a different sound than rosewood.  I truly loved the tone of this guitar before starting, and had it setup perfectly for what I like.  This guitar lacked nothing in my mind before starting but had a tone that was quite distinctive.  Not like mahogany, not like rosewood, but a good mix between the two.  I liked that it seemed to give the best of both worlds. 

The tone rite has been on it for 48+ hours and I took it off the wall where it is hanging with the tone rite on it.  I played it for about twenty minutes this morning.  Again, the tone had changed with a significantly increased emphasis on the bottom end.  I have had the tone rite set for low frequency enhancement and it certainly has done that.  I was quite surprised that it made that much difference on a guitar that was this good to begin with.  The volume did not seem to be any greater than yesterday, but it certainly does not need any greater volume.  It was almost too loud to begin with.  I have put it back on the wall with the tone rite set at the highest frequency.  There is a very noticeable hum from the guitar at this rate of vibration.  It is a bit distracting but as it continues I am getting used to it and it becomes more like background noise.  I don't know if this will go away as it did on the low frequency or if it will continue to be so noticeable.  If it continues I will probably have to stop the test and use it at the shop on a different instrument.  So far my wife has not said anything, but she has not been in this room except walking through.  If she complains it will certainly come down.  Happy wife, happy life  :Smile:  .  

So far I will have to say that I am a bit surprised at the result the tone rite has given.  I was extremely skeptical about any value it may have.  It is distributed by the same people that do the "Loar" mandolins and Recording King guitars and banjos. I have had a very good relationship with them and have really loved what they have done with the products they produce.  Greg Rich, who designs the products for them, is an old friend and a person whose opinion I really trust when it comes to instruments.  Still, I was not willing to get behind the tone rite products because I was just plain skeptical.  The tone rite people asked me if I would test them on the acoustic guitar and mandolin.  I expressed my concerns to them.  They said they would send me one of each if I would test it.  I was told it was fine to post my opinions whatever they may be.  Had it not been the relationship with Recording King, I would probably said no.  Since I have great confidence in the RK people, I was willing to at least try these items and test them.

With all the above being said, I am so far quite surprised and pleased.  It is good to be an "old dog" and learn a new trick.  I have done similar experiments with other methods to enhance tone and volume over the years, and it is not too different from the tone rite.  The major difference being that the tone rite only runs at one frequency at a time rather than a continuing change of frequencies.

My real question that still remains is will it enhance only part of the instruments capabilities?  In other words, if you set it for more bottom end will it sacrifice the mids or highs.  So far I have seen great improvement on the bottom end on both the guitar and mandolin.  I have not had any decrease in the mids or highs.  My current experiment on the guitar is to see if the higher frequency of the tone rite boosts the mids or highs rather than the lows.  I really don't want any more bottom end, so it will be an interesting experiment.

Once I have completed the experiment on the Gibson AJ, whether that ends today or after a full week, I plan on putting it on a low end guitar to see if it makes any difference there.  I will, of course, post those results at that time.  I will check the LM400 on Monday when I am back in the shop and see how it is doing, and if I need to adjust the frequency on the tone rite.  I will say I am positively impressed so far, and that surprises me.  A couple of my Cafe friends have asked my opinion over the last year, and I was not very positive about the "gadget".  I really felt it was just another gimmick.  While I am not ready to competely jump on the bandwagon, I am preparing a nice side dish for my plat of crow I am beginning to see grilled  :Smile:  .

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## swain

Joe, thanks for "taking one for the team" by wringing out the tonerite.   I'm hoping for something to come along to help weak G strings tone on an otherwise very nice mandolin.   Maybe the tonerite will do the job.

For an octave mandolin, what will work?   The guitar model, or the mandolin model?

swain

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## Keith Newell

Thanks for posting Joe. Me being a pretty much noname small builder and originally speaking my mind on liking the Tonerite was met with so much skepticism and sometimes disrespect that I had chosen not to speak out again. Its nice to see someone with your experience use it and speak so clearly about what you hear is refreshing. I have always thought you said it like it was in all topics and didn't look at things through rose colored glasses.
 Keith Newell

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## EdSherry

Thanks, Big Joe, for your comments.  I have the same subjective reaction (when I use a Tonerite on an acoustic mando or guitar, it seems to improve the sound and volume somewhat, though not in the "sow's ear into a silk purse" sense), and it's nice to hear a similar reaction.

A luthier friend (Lewis Santer) who is the shop foreman at Somogyi Guitars [VERY high end instruments, currently starting at $26,000!] borrowed my Tonerite for some tests on their instruments.  

Both Lewis and I are longtime friends with Michael Lewis, who posts here regularly [and is a masterful luthier, if I do say so myself].  Michael is on record here on the Cafe as saying that, in his opinion, the Tonerite is worthwhile.  Indeed, it was because of Michael's comments that I "bit the bullet" and bought one, and Lewis Santer trusted both my ears and Michael's ears enough to take the plunge to check the Tonerite out.

Lewis Santer's reaction was:  not a lot of tonal / timbre change, but a noticeable [though not dramatic] increase in the volume on their new instruments.  He commented that he thought the effect was both significant and worthwhile.  He told me that they intended to order one.  

Again a subjective assessment, rather than any sort of "double blind"/"objective" "scientific" assessment, but Lewis told me that that was the consensus of the folks at Somogyi's shop.  And I trust his ears in these matters -- he hears subtle things that my ears simply don't.

His concern was much the same as mine:  whether any short-term "waking up" / volume effect (which we both clearly noticed) would persist over time once the treatment was stopped.  I have no way of knowing how one might go about testing that.

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## Michael Lewis

Joe, Ed, and Keith, thanks for speaking up.  I have no financial connection with the Tonerite , I just know what I know and reported my experience.  Maybe the Tonerite won't help every instrument, we won't know unless they all get the treatment, but I know it will help  a lot of them.

I am not here to sell Tonerite, I found the tool useful and reported that.  That's it.

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## Big Joe

Day 3 on the Gibson AJ.   I set the tone rite so it ran at its highest frequency.  It did enhance the mids quite a bit compared to where they were the day before.  The first two days increased the bottom end and the last day was an increase in the mids.  I don't know that I want to say improvement since that is subjective.  An improvement in a frequency range is only an improvement if you want those frequencies altered.  In this case, it did balance it out a bit.  I did not notice any increase in volume after day 3.  It is still as loud as it was after the first day.  Day 1 was the most noticeable change, and that is not surprising.  The alteration in bottom end response and volume were very noticeable.  Day 2 increased the bottom end even more, and day 3 the mids.  I had the tone rite set all the way to hits highest frequency so I think that is about as far as it can go in altering the tone.  

The information with the tone rite indicates it will go to sleep again if unplayed or the tone rite is not continued.  This is not an unusual situation for an instrument that does not get played.  The tone rite is suggested for use when you do not play your instrument regularly or when first getting it.  With the limited experience I have at this point, I do think it would be an asset to many instruments.  

I am going to discontinue the test on the AJ for several reasons.  First, the brochure indicates 3 days to a week for first time use.  I have done 3 days and really don't wish to see this particular guitar changed any more in any direction.  Second, the hum that was emanating from the guitar was beginning to make my wife a bit less than happy.  When the television was on the hum was much less noticeable, but still there.  It was not terrible, but kind of like a white noise in the background.  

I will put it on a guitar in the shop tomorrow.  It is a much less expensive guitar, and it is new.  I want to see if it makes a difference there as well.  It will be interesting to see how the LM400 is doing tomorrow as well.  It is kind of fun to have a toy to play with for a bit  :Smile:  .  Seriously though, if it is a product that will help us in our search for the best tone our instruments will give, then I am all for it no matter the instrument or price range it may fall.

I will add this.  If you are looking to improve your instrument, don't just rely on this to get the job done.  It appears to be a great tool, but first make sure your instrument can give all it can with conventional methods first.  Get a pro to set it up and ensure that everything is doing what it is supposed to at its best first.  Then when you use the tone rite and get an improvement you can really have the best that instrument could possibly be.  This is not a replacement for a good setup or structural issues that need caring for.  Like so many things, it is a tool that can help and for that I am pleased.  Just like a tone gard or a good arm rest can help and often quite dramatically, so might this.  Still, none of these are replacement for having your instrument set up the best it can be and everything on the instrument functioning at its best.  Then these other things can give you that extra edge.

Hey Michael.. I had not read the entire thread and had not seen your post.  Had I seen that I would have been much less skeptical.  Like you, my first goal is the improvement of the instruments we are so passionate about.

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## Amandalyn

> I have been playing stringed instruments for 47 years and have never experienced a poor sounding instrument getting better by playing or it getting older. While my reasoning may be flawed, I cannot imagine a vibrating machine being able to over come the constructs of and instrument transforming its potential into something positive. 
> 
> My experience tells me that an instrument's sound is a result of how it was made. I don't understand why this is not better understood or at least appreciated.


The Tonerite information states it will not make a poor sounding or constructed instrument sound better, it brings out the inherent qualities of the instrument.

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## Big Joe

Day 4 completed on the LM400.  It certainly has made it louder and improved the bottom end (G string).  When I took it down this morning and played it several people commented on how much better the bottom end was and how much louder it was.  I will keep it on the LM400 for another 3 days to complete the week on this test.  I forgot to bring the acoustic guitar tone rite in from home this morning.  I will bring it tomorrow and put it on another guitar to see what that does.  I have to say the crow is starting to look pretty appetizing.  I'm thinking plenty of good BBQ sauce and maybe a rye bun  :Smile:  .

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## mandotrout777

> Day 4 completed on the LM400.  It certainly has made it louder and improved the bottom end (G string).  When I took it down this morning and played it several people commented on how much better the bottom end was and how much louder it was.  I will keep it on the LM400 for another 3 days to complete the week on this test.  I forgot to bring the acoustic guitar tone rite in from home this morning.  I will bring it tomorrow and put it on another guitar to see what that does.  I have to say the crow is starting to look pretty appetizing.  I'm thinking plenty of good BBQ sauce and maybe a rye bun  .


I'm glad I got mine ordered last week.  I have a feeling after Big Joe finishes his trial we're going to see a run on the mandolin model.  :Smile:

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## Kevin K

Possibly so....

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## Chuck Naill

> The Tonerite information states it will not make a poor sounding or constructed instrument sound better, it brings out the inherent qualities of the instrument.


So if the intrinsic qualities are poor the consumer is being led to believe something positive, as a result of using the product, will occur? 

This is from your web site, "Through on-going research, ToneRite has discovered that an instrument essentially cannot be played often or long enough to bring out its very best tone. Moreover, if left fallow, older instruments can fall asleep, losing their quality sound.

Is this research published? I would enjoy being able to read the article.

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## Amandalyn

[/QUOTE]Is this research published? I would enjoy being able to read the article.[/QUOTE]
this is a quote direct from the Tonerite inventors.

There has been numerous scientific articles written on the de-damping process of wood instruments. Here's one (scroll down for English)
http://www.henrystrobel.com/vibrate.htm
For something current I can point you to this:
http://www.acousticguitar.com/articl...d=24089&page=2

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## SincereCorgi

Once again, if you only show the sidebar to that Acoustic Guitar article, you get a very skewed idea of the main author's intent: main body of the article is here: http://www.acousticguitar.com/articl...rticleid=24089

Even in that sidebar, though, the revealing sentence is: "Do devices like the popular ToneRite (tonerite.com) or services like Alchemy Acoustic Labs (alchemyacousticlabs.com) work? Many people *claim* so."

The other article is one paragraph is from a website trying to sell a book for $30 about how to 'dedamp' your violin by hooking a little vibrating machine to the bridge. And its biggest claim of verification:

"Subjective evaluation typically indicates an improvement well beyond mere suggestion, and vibration dedamping seems more effective than ordinary (low level) "playing-in". What about objective verification? There is the German Patent Office' investigation (J. Meyer, 1978), and the Lehmann paper. But the objective measurement of violin quality is not easy, and changes may be subtle, complex and variable from instrument to instrument and time to time. Care is also needed to exclude other effects, as of a soundpost inadvertently disturbed by the vibration."

This is so paltry that the phrase 'through on-going research' seems disingenuous to me.

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## foldedpath

> The other article is one paragraph is from a website trying to sell a book for $30 about how to 'dedamp' your violin by hooking a little vibrating machine to the bridge. And its biggest claim of verification:
> 
> "Subjective evaluation typically indicates an improvement well beyond mere suggestion, and vibration dedamping seems more effective than ordinary (low level) "playing-in". 
> 
> What about objective verification?
> 
> This is so paltry that the phrase 'through on-going research' seems disingenuous to me.


Me too, it's just marketing-speak without objective evidence. We have lots of subjective impressions here, including Big Joe's ongoing "test," but that's not really a test in any meaningful sense for the rest of us. One of my favorite Fineman quotes is this one:
_The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.
 -- Richard P. Feynman_ 
Here's another good one for the current discussion:
_For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled.
 -- Richard P. Feynman_

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## Amandalyn

> ....the phrase 'through on-going research' seems disingenuous to me.


I don't think the pro musicians and luthiers who have tryed the Tonerite consider their endorsements "disingenuous". :Smile:

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## Chuck Naill

Is this research published? I would enjoy being able to read the article.[/QUOTE]
this is a quote direct from the Tonerite inventors.

There has been numerous scientific articles written on the de-damping process of wood instruments. Here's one (scroll down for English)
http://www.henrystrobel.com/vibrate.htm
For something current I can point you to this:
http://www.acousticguitar.com/articl...d=24089&page=2[/QUOTE]

Thank you Terri. 

This is from the first link, "Vibration dedamping as described can apparently improve some string instruments following original construction, storage or but light use, or major repair. It can make no further improvement in an instrument which is completely played-in, nor will it compensate for design errors, such as a too thick graduation. " This is a better more objective position in my opinion. It allows for the possibility that an instrument is such that no improvement is either necessary nor desired. I also appreciate that the author recognizes that thick graduation, and if I may extrapolate too many or too large of bracing, is/are not going to be over come by Tonerite or playing time. 

The other article suggests that playing improves the instrument, but I have played under the bed, pristine early 1930's Martin OM's which sounds as good as any well played and battered prewar Martin leading me to conclude that it is the constructs rather than age and play which provides the desirable results. 

While I do not criticize commerce and a consumer's right to buy what they want, it is prudent  not to get your expectations too high if flaws exist with the instrument.

Roger's services might into the discussion here, http://www.siminoff.net/pages/simino...dedamping.html

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## Rick Turner

I would not consider the sidebar I wrote that is quoted above to be "scientific", however I have seen frequency response charts done before and after the "TimbreTech" process, and indeed, those charts showed changes that correlated to audible differences brought about by the fairly violent shaking of guitars treated and tested.  I'm trying to track down some of those response charts.

In my sidebar, I point to there being several mechanisms by which instruments seem to change...call it "open up"...over time.   Vibration is one of those factors, but not the only one.

I do happen to be on the "believer" side of the line of artificial means being effective to a greater or lesser degree in helping instruments become more responsive...for better or worse.   Anyone who has ever heard a mandolin, guitar, or any other wooden stringed instrument strung up for the first time and then heard that instrument 24, 48, 72, etc. hours later will be a believer.  That's when the changes are the greatest, but then age, vibration, repeated climate changes, etc. will do their bits of magic.  Vibrating the instrument, whether by playing or artificially does seem to make for changes, though it's become incredibly controversial.   But lots of mediocre guitar players just don't seem to want to believe that their factory made instruments will change at all once they bring them home.   I beg to differ...based on 45 years of playing, repairing, and building instruments.  Scientific?  No, but I've seen the science, too, and I believe it.

I'd love to hear what might happen if one put an instrument into a vacuum chamber for a while.  I wonder if that might draw out VOCs from both wood and finish...

As some here know, I did cryogenically treat an in-the-white Gibson F-5 many years ago.   Minus 360 degrees in a dry helium atmosphere for 72 hours back in 1988.   The binding hated it.  The mando sounds fine.   Also did Mastertone tone rings, and that process now seems fairly well accepted in the banjo world.  So I was 32 years ahead of the curve...

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## Chuck Naill

> Anyone who has ever heard a mandolin, guitar, or any other wooden stringed instrument strung up for the first time and then heard that instrument 24, 48, 72, etc. hours later will be a believer.  That's when the changes are the greatest, but then age, vibration, repeated climate changes, etc. will do their bits of magic.  .


I have experienced this, but in my mind this is not what is generally meant by "opening up". In the case of guitars, many  use the prewar lightly braced Martins as a benchmark. Some think that those guitars got that way by being played and being several decades old. I disagree. The reason the old Martin became the bench mark is because of the way they were braced among other important constructs. 

chuck

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## Paul Hostetter

> I have experienced this, but in my mind this is not what is generally meant by "opening up". In the case of guitars, many  use the prewar lightly braced Martins as a benchmark. Some think that those guitars got that way by being played and being several decades old. I disagree. The reason the old Martin became the bench mark is because of the way they were braced among other important constructs.


You've completely sidestepped Rick and either missed his point or chose to discredit it. I don't know anyone who would propose "prewar lightly braced Martins as a benchmark" of opening up. Try and keep opening up, as 99% of the luthier and player community understands it, separate from your completely separate agenda of evaluating old instruments. You cobbled two things together in one post that have nothing to do with one another.

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## buckles

Rick, what are VOCs?

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## D C Blood

It's fairly obvious to me that those who don't believe in the Tone-Rite are not going to be converted by those who do.  If I say, "well, it made my mandolin sound better", they're just going to say "well, you can't prove it sounds better"...I don't feel the need to prove it. If it sounds better to me and others, I don't need any scientific proof.  It's good enough for me.  By the way, Big Joe...if you lay the instrument in its case, put a T-shirt or towel on top of the Tone-rite, and gently close the lid on top of the towel, that cuts the hum waaay down, to easily bearable volume.  Matter of fact, it's kind of relaxing to sleep to.

"Me too, it's just marketing-speak without objective evidence. We have lots of subjective impressions here, including Big Joe's ongoing "test," but that's not really a test in any meaningful sense for the rest of us. One of my favorite Fineman quotes is this one:
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.
-- Richard P. Feynman "

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## foldedpath

> Vibrating the instrument, whether by playing or artificially does seem to make for changes, though it's become incredibly controversial.


It's only "controversial" because sweeping claims are being made for commercial artificial vibration gadgets, with no objective tests offered at all. Just claims of "belief" and anecdotal evidence based on fallible human memory. 




> But lots of mediocre guitar players just don't seem to want to believe that their factory made instruments will change at all once they bring them home.


Ad hominem attacks do not advance the discussion ("mediocre guitar players"... really?).

Also, there is a difference between thinking that many factors will affect the way an instrument sounds over time -- changes as the wood dries out, the resin and finish ages, etc. -- and thinking that  commercial gadget can duplicate or accelerate this process.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Rick, what are VOCs?


I'm guessing he's referring to Volatile Organic Compounds.

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## Big Joe

I approached this test from a very subjective point of view.  I was prepared to find the whole tone rite gadget just that...another gadget to come down the pike that had very little real value.  That was my personal opinion, and I believe I expressed as much to several including David Blood.  I am an "old dog", but I am willing to learn and experiment and see where I may be wrong.  I have done my best to be as objective as I can while still being quite negative as to its value when the experiment began.  

With all the talk about a desire for some "scientific" examination of the product, I think those tests are just as subjective as any performed by any of the experienced luthiers on this board.  There is enough empirical evidence that "opening up" does occur, and while there is substantial subjective discussion, there is no real way to test this in a laboratory where exact scientific results can be obtained.  Every test is subjective in some degree.  Especially when it comes to stringed instruments.  You could not test two identical instruments...one with and the other without tone rite to extract "scientific" information.  While they may appear to be identical instruments, there is no such thing.  All the little differences that are inherent in a stringed instrument and it play make that kind of comparison more subjective than the experiments we are working on.  Second, there are too many variables in most of these experiments for a truly objective "scientific" result to be extracted.  Who does the testing?  What picks?  What strings?  What is the temperature and humidity?  What about the way you feel or play or hear today as opposed to yesterday?  How hard were the strings plucked last time as compared to this time?  The list can go on for a very long time.  Even though we can make our best efforts to give a truly objective experiment, the results will be skewed whether intentional or not.  That leaves a subjective testing done by those who have the experience and knowledge to have an excellent idea of what is occuring during the testing process.

While I have a healthy respect for "science", I also have a very healthy respect for those who truly know the subject and have developed and trained their ears to be able to discern alterations and to know the difference in tone /volume in a musical instrument.  Subjective? Certainly.  Objective?  Yep.  Scientific?  Just as much as most other tests performed by experts in their field.  When people like Rick Turner and Michael Lewis and Paul Hostetler speak, there is good reason to listen carefully.  They have the experience and knowledge to give an opinion that weighs more heavily in my mind than a text book ever would.  While we may not agree on all the fine details of lutherie or technique, we will generally agree on the issues that are more important and fundamental.  In addition, you can discard my results as useless subjectiveness, but I can assure you I can tell the difference in tone and volume in these instruments from day to day and recognize what is related to changes in weather or my personal playing method.  

All the above being said, I must repeat something I said before in one way or another.  The Tone Rite is a useful tool to help your particular instrument achieve its best.  It WILL NOT make a mediocre guitar great.  It will not make a piece of junk good.  It will not make any instrument any better than that particular instrument is capable of being in its current form.  However, it can be a tool to help you get the best performance out of the instrument you have.  The change would likely be quite noticeable on any instrument...particularly one that has not been played in awhile or one that is newer and has not been played at all.  

I still believe the first money should be spent on set up and structural issues.  Those dollars are much better spent than purchasing an artificial item to attempt to give the same results.  However, once your instrument is properly set up, structurally sound, and ready, then the Tone Rite may well be a useful tool to help achieve that next step for your instrument.  It is not a majic pill or some life changing item that will take you from mediocrity to nirvana.  No such thing.  It can only help what you have become the best it can with what it has to work with.  I would not tell anyone to expect more than that, but I would also say that it can be a good tool for most instruments.  

All the talk about "subjectivism" vs "objectivism" is, in my opinion, just a smokescreen.  If you really want to know if it works, then try one.  What do you have to loose?  I have had to eat plenty of "crow" on this product but it is not the first time I have been wrong about a product.  Over the years, because of where I have been and the positions I have held, I have seen so much junk come down the pipe that I am skeptical about nearly anything.  Most of the stuff that has gotten to me is just a waste of time and money.  The designers were well intentioned and often very nice and sincere, but the product was still junk.  Therefore, I am most often skeptical about new products.  I am not fast to jump on a bandwagon and I am slow to consider things I have not seen before.  While I thought many of them were interesting and may have some potential, most just never reached that potential.  In the case of the tone gard, and now the tone rite I have been proven wrong with enough evidence for me to change my mind.  

You will make a decision on the tone rite on very subjective evidence no matter how much scientific reasoning is shown.  If we all followed pure science, we would not likely do many of the things we do.  We would not eat the foods we eat, or drink what we do, or wear what we do or .........  Think about how often "science" has told us coffee was harmful...oh wait....helpful...oh wait...harmful...oh wait...helpful.  There are many other "scientific" reports that were no better than the paper they were written on.  While I can appreciate what they do, science is not the end all in many respects.  It can be a guide, but as far as I'm concerned, theory...whether "scientific" or not is just that...theory.  Unproven concepts about how something happens.  Science can give us theories about electronics, but it still does not explain fully how transmitting pictures from one location to another works.  Lots of ideas, but nothing that is beyond theory.  The same with creation.  Lots of theories but not much that can really be called fact.  How about the beginning of life?  Same thing.  Lots of theories that many hold as scientificly based, but are still nothing more than theory.  Those theories are no more factual than the subjective results of my test or those of several other trained experts on this forum.  Ok.  Done with my rant  :Smile:  .  Still think the tone rite has done what it claims on the instruments I've seen, and the word of my fellow luthiers speaks very clearly to me of the value of the product and its potential for the consumer.  Is it worth the price?  That is truly subjective.  Only the end purchaser can determine whether this item is worth 150-200 dollars and whether they will get that extra value from their instrument.

I cannot say about that.  I did not purchase the tone rite for either instrument, and I have not sold or stocked any.  I have no financial interest in this product.  It has been purely an experiment at the request of a friend.  I would not likely have done so otherwise.  Now that I have been doing these tests, I am really surprised at the results and pleased that I now have another tool at my disposal to use in the shop to help the instruments we work on become the best they can be.  I can see this would be a very useful tool on repairs that have been quite invasive.  Every time I have done a neck set I have seen the instrument go to sleep a bit.  While the neck set may have actually improved the instrument it often does not reach its potential till some time after the work is completed.  It is nice to know I have a tool that may help reduce this period before the instrument is returned to the customer.  I have not tested that aspect of the product, but I am anxious to do so and I expect to see results just as pleasing if not more so.  Thank you.

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## Chuck Naill

> You've completely sidestepped Rick and either missed his point or chose to discredit it. I don't know anyone who would propose "prewar lightly braced Martins as a benchmark" of opening up. Try and keep opening up, as 99% of the luthier and player community understands it, separate from your completely separate agenda of evaluating old instruments. You cobbled two things together in one post that have nothing to do with one another.


Opening up is a concept and is subjective. At 72 hours the strings are still new and still settling in. The real test for me is how an instrument performs with dead strings. Then you can evaluate how the box resonates. 

99 percent of builders might suggest that their instruments will open up, but how many will predict when that will happen and what those results will be? What is the standard by which a builders instruments are compared? I say that it is the pre war Martin. 

Then you ask why is the Martin the standard. There must be a reason. I became convinced that if all else is equal, the size and amount of braces play the most important role. The evidence I use is to compare a new Martin D-18 Authentic with a new Martin D-18 GE since both are essentially the same plain jane red spruce and mahogany box except for the braces. 

When a consumer buys a new guitar and then asks when will it open up, they have a standard of measure. This standard of measure for many of us in the pre war Martin. IMO, as long as the tone is muddy and much effort is needed to coax out volume, the guitar has not opened up.

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## buckles

> I became convinced that if all else is equal, the size and amount of braces play the most important role. The evidence I use is to compare a new Martin D-18 Authentic with a new Martin D-18 GE since both are essentially the same plain jane red spruce and mahogany box except for the braces.


I realize that this is topic drift, but I thought the Authentic uses hide glue while the GE doesn't???

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## Miked

Well said Big Joe!

To me, the Tone Rite is like a non-stop flight compared to a having a couple lay-overs.  Or in the case of a new instrument, the non-stop flight compared to driving.  Either way, I will get to where I want to go, but I'll get there a lot quicker with the Tone Rite.

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## Geoff B

> [...]At 72 hours the strings are still new and still settling in. The real test for me is how an instrument performs with dead strings[...] 
> 
>  but how many will predict when that will happen and what those results will be? ...


I believe big Joe mentioned strings in one of his rants, but evaluating with dead strings is worse (in my mind) than evaluating with fresh or "broken in" strings (oh boy, I wonder if we could get 10 pages out of that discussion!).  Either way your point only advocates some sort of standardized scientific method of researching this, but the silence on a 'suitable-meaningful-scientifically-rigorous-double-blind-blah-blah-blah" suggests to me that lot's of folks don't need that level of convincing, so if someone wants it, they'd need to do it.

perhaps you need to define what you think "broken in" is, especially if you think it is an event ("when it will happen") that can really be accurately measured and predicted.  Using the Martin as an example, it sounds like you are arguing that they sound just how they sounded right out of the factory way back then.  But you mentioned earlier that an "unplayed" Martin sounded just as good as a "played" in one.  You must think that any change in sound must just come from age, in which case why measure a brand new instrument against a 60 year old instrument?

Since you've experienced the first hours of an instrument's life, why wouldn't you think that that trend would continue through it's life?  And why would it not make some sort of intuitive sense that the more you play it, the quicker that change happens?  Why then, wouldn't it make sense that vibrating the instrument in some way mimmicks playing and, thus, speeds up this process that begins as soon as it gets strings on it?  Just seems silly to me to keep fighting, then throwing in new arguments without addressing 
 what's already out there.  You didn't even answer why Martin is the standard, except to say there must be a reason.  Oye...

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## foldedpath

> With all the talk about a desire for some "scientific" examination of the product, I think those tests are just as subjective as any performed by any of the experienced luthiers on this board.





> and while there is substantial subjective discussion, there is no real way to test this in a laboratory where exact scientific results can be obtained."


Why not? Heck, just build a test frame with an auto-plucker to eliminate the human variable (not hard for any woodworker). Record the instrument when new, then record it again with the same mic distance and recording settings after some period of artificial vibration. Put the files online without any alteration, and without identifying which is which. Let the Cafe members decide if they can hear a distance in a blind A/B/X comparison where we don't know what the files are beforehand. 

That's an experimental method that could be repeated by others, with different mandolins, to see if there is some general principal at work here. Recordings are an objective tool that could be used to analyze this effect, and yet there's an amazing reluctance on the part of those promoting these devices (or the theory in general) to use recordings to demonstrate it. Even ignoring subjective things like "quality of tone," you could at least demonstrate an increase in volume for the same energy of pick attack, if it's actually happening.

Instead, it's just... "trust us, it works."

Or worse, appeals to authority... "famous player or luthier X endorses it, so it must be good!" 

That kind of promotion without evidence just sets off multiple alarm bells for those of us who are skeptical by nature, and yet still have as many years playing music and observing the effects of instruments over time as as many of the other players and luthiers here. Some of us are old enough to remember the old "prop your guitar in front of a speaker and play music loud" advice, usually promoted by someone who wasn't happy with the way their instrument sounded, and is looking for a shortcut to either time or money for a better instrument. 

Also, keep in mind that this works both ways in marketing instruments and services. I've had the good fortune to be able to work with several luthiers and high-end shop owners on custom orders over the years, including Steve Holst, Harvey Leach, and Steve Swan. Frankly, I would be very suspicious of a retailer or luthier who promoted something like artificial vibration as part of the process, without some solid evidence behind it. If I ever had the money to buy a Gilchrist or a Monteleone, I don't think the fact that they didn't "burn in" the instrument with a Tonerite would stop me from placing the order. 




> Every test is subjective in some degree.


With all respect to your skills and experience, that's simply not true. We wouldn't have gotten where we are as a species without the scientific method of ruling out observer bias, and ensuring 3rd party verification. The scientific method is a proven way to insure that we're not fooling ourselves, when we make claims like this.

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## foldedpath

> Since you've experienced the first hours of an instrument's life, why wouldn't you think that that trend would continue through it's life?


Okay, let's assume that "something" happens to an instrument between the time it's new and 10 years from that time... whether it's the result of vibration, or the wood continuing to lose moisture, the resins hardening, and so on. 

If the only way we have to evaluate that change is the subjective impression of the player/owner, then tell me how to eliminate the fact that the player has also had 10 years to improve their playing from the time the instrument was new? Also 10 years of experimenting to find the right strings, the right pick, the right action settings. There is no way to tell how much of this is player improvement, vs. the instrument "opening up."

Compress that down to 10 minutes, and it also explains my skepticism about instruments needing 10 minutes, or 30 minutes or whatever, to "wake up." Is it the instrument waking up, or is it the player waking up? 

A blind, repeatable, scientific test is the only way to eliminate the player variable. It's the only way to even begin to put an end to this online discussion of how, and when, and if "opening up" happens.

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## Kerry Krishna

I  bought a Tonerite well over a year ago from a fellow Collings Forum member and turned it into the Traveling Tonerite machine. It went to 18 seperate Forum members over about 8 months. The Forum members all made up their own minds on whether it worked or not. Each member had it for a full two weeks before sending it off to the next person. Why does'nt someone on this Forum do the same thing and let the people who don't believe it works give it a try? If you trust your fellow Forum members, and you already have a Tonerite,  consider it!  I made quite a few new friends over on that amazing Forum because of this, and realistically, what is $150 between friends? When my Tonerite finally made it to me after 8 months of traveling, I have now done 4 instruments, (a brand new Collings D1HAV SB Varn, 2 year old Collings D2H that was already broken in, 1933 Kay Kraft two point, 1931 Kay Kraft two point tenor.  The D2H was the least improved out of the 4, Both Kay Krafts had huge positive results, and the D1HA had a pretty big improvement too, but with adi topped guitars, I am still going to be waiting another 2 and a half years I figure before it'stotally broken in. So I would also like to point out, as has already been mentioned in this thread, that there is the still ongoing Tonerite Thread in the 'Tech and Repair' section of the Collings Forum.  It is still collecting monthly results. The number of high end guitars Tonerited  is now well over 100, with ( I think another 30 or so 'other' guitars also) . Go look at the results on the graph, if you want. It's still on the first page.

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## Paul Hostetter

> Opening up is a concept and is subjective.


Yet you proceed with your posts as if your personal understanding is the only one that counts and everyone else is wrong.  Saying it's "subjective" is a dodge. 




> At 72 hours the strings are still new and still settling in.


Assuming you never so much as touch them during that time, and never heard it the minute it was strung up. I guess in production situations, people string up guitars and never play or think about them. By 72 hours I have changed strings several times, and logged hours of playing time. (And the changes are striking!)




> The real test for me is how an instrument performs with dead strings. Then you can evaluate how the box resonates.


That's certainly not how I or a whole lot of other people would ever frame the idea of opening up. Now you're of onto how an instrument performs with dead strings. _What?_ Can't you stay on message?




> 99 percent of builders might suggest that their instruments will open up, but how many will predict when that will happen and what those results will be?


99 percent of builders might?? Was your point that all these makers are failing to describe or guarantee certainty about their instrument's development? 




> What is the standard by which a builders instruments are compared? I say that it is the pre war Martin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ouf, not that one again. Sorry, you've trotted out yet another _non sequitur_. I would fervently hope that no one who ever played a new instrument of mine even vaguely considered comparing it to a vintage Martin. I sure like vintage Martins, and own and proudly play several, but it's one very small view of the guitar picture, and not one I have ever aspired to. I don't think I or a great many other aficionados or makers of acoustic instruments feel that "pre war Martins" are any kind of gold standard. Or, more importantly, that they offer much insight into the phenomenon of opening up. 
> 
> 
> Then you ask why is the Martin the standard.


I never asked any such thing. Repeat: I never asked any such thing. Don't put words in my mouth. Can you possibly stay on one subject without tossing in remarks that have no bearing whatsoever on the premise you put forth? It seems any time you're caught on shaky ground, you change the subject. 

Old Martins are, at best, a standard for newer Martins and to a lesser extent for people who imitate them. That's it. They have no bearing on anything else in the realm of instrument making. Lots of people really don't like the sound of old guitars, be they Martins or whatever. To them, the designs are wrong, the sound dull. 




> I became convinced that if all else is equal, the size and amount of braces play the most important role. The evidence I use is to compare a new Martin D-18 Authentic with a new Martin D-18 GE since both are essentially the same plain jane red spruce and mahogany box except for the braces.


Nice, but "all else" is almost never equal, and moreover what does that have to do with opening up? Nothing, as far as I can tell. Comparing a new guitar (even if we're supposed to be discussing mandolins here) by a maker such as Rick Turner or Stefan Sobell or John Monteleone or Don Young or Mario Proulx (and on and on) to a pre-war Martin is plain dumb. It means nothing. Comparing any of them at Minute One to themselves at Age You-Name-It does, however, mean something. 




> When a consumer buys a new guitar and then asks when will it open up, they have a standard of measure. This standard of measure for many of us in the pre war Martin.


You are again making no sense. The standard is how that instrument sounded the minute it was strung upor at least the first time someone really played itand the test is how it sounds after a matter of hours or days or years compared to itself. Not how it compares to completely unrelated instruments. Especially ones of other designs built by someone else decades earlier. 




> IMO, as long as the tone is muddy and much effort is needed to coax out volume, the guitar has not opened up.


That's a mildly interesting opinion, but means next to nothing in terms of how or why an instrument opens up. 

I suspect you'll dig in even deeper trying to be rightit's your stylebut for my money, you are making no sense. Newly made instruments open up. I really don't think you get how or why. All you know is what you like.

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## swain

The Traveling Tonerite is a great idea.   When I can spare mine for awhile, I know where to send it for a truly scientific evaluation.

swain

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## Big Joe

Why would a pre-war Martin be a standard???  Standard of what??? Certainly not acoustic guitars in general.  Many don't like the tone of pre-war Martins and if played hard they can get muddy.  That was one reason for the Changes in Martin in the 40's as the guitar continued to become more popular.  I can't imagine why a Martin would be a standard any more than a vintage Gibson or any other of several wonderful sounding and playing instruments.  As Paul said, an instrument can really only be compared to itself.  Should you have doubts about instruments "opening up" with time, that is a purely subjective position with absolutely no science behind it.  Whether subjective or objective, there is plenty of evidence of instruments opening up....and going to sleep.

My problem with so called "double blind studies", even by artificial pluckers and recorders is that it ends up being a subjective result.  I don't think the test can be completely accurate to begin with for many factors not related just to the picking.  In addition, once it on a recording, then you are subject to the recording media and the method of play back.  Next you have to rely on the ears of the listener.  That is where you loose any objectiveness in a scientific manner.  It now becomes subjective to the hearer as an end result.  While it could produce an interesting topic, it would be no more scientific than the results we have from those who have used the tone rite.  

I think it all ends on whether YOU think it will be of value to you or not.  That is also a purely subjective decision, and often based on emotions.  Most decisions we make...especially when it comes to our beloved musical instruments...is based on an emotional response rather than science.  Even if science were screaming at us, many would still follow the emotion rather than the science.  If science said 'purple alvarez' guitars were the best ever, I doubt there would be a significant run on purple alvarez guitars.  Sure, they may be a temporary bump in sales, but most of us would puke at the idea of playing a purple alvarez and giving up our chosen favorite guitar.

What instrument is the best one whether based on science or not?  The one that moves YOU. Purely subjective and needs no justification from anyone or any committee.  The tone rite falls in the same category.  If you think it will help you and is worth the 150.00 bucks it costs, then get one.  If you don't think it has that much value in your life, forget it and go on.  I don't understand the continued attempts to discredit the product merely because one may not believe in the product.  Try it yourself.  You can probably borrow one from someone for a few days and see if it works for you.  If it does, great!  If it does not, then great!  It is not the end all in life as we know it....or at least not for me.

I can only report my findings.  I trust many others who have used them, and I have been one of the biggest skeptics concerning this product.  However, when I am wrong I have no problem defending the product.  I don't think it is a sham and I don't think the results are as subjective as some who have never tried the product and I have come to that position by observation and experience with the product itself.  I have become a believer because I has seen with my own eyes, heard with my own ears, and seen the results verified by those around me.  It is not merely a one person response in our test.  

Again, you have to decide if it is worth the expense for you.  However, there are plenty of people who do have the experience and knowledge to know whether it works or not to have some assurance this may be a valuable product for many.  I have not seen those who have used it become very negative and that also speaks volumes.  If it did not work, why don't we hear about that?  In the case of myself and several others on this forum, we have no financial interest in the product.  We don't make a single dollar more if it works or if it does not.  We can only report our findings, and whether they be subjective or objective is a matter you can decide.  I doubt it matters much to most of us.  We are old enough to really not care much about that aspect.  However, we are also happy to speak when we see something that may be of value become available to our friends on the cafe.  If you find a way to execute a pure science experiment, and feel the need for it, then go for it.  For me, the expense of such a test would be a waste of money.  Borrow one and plug it in for a few days.  You will know pretty quickly if it offers any advantage to you or not.  Just the opinion of an old skeptic  :Smile:  .

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## Chuck Naill

> I suspect you'll dig in even deeper trying to be right—it's your style—but for my money, you are making no sense. Newly made instruments open up. I really don't think you get how or why. All you know is what you like.


My style? Have we ever had a conversation before? Having read your posts here in the past you appear to have a need to be seen as an expert and if challenged resort to the tone that you have exemplified here. 

The use of the pronoun "you" was generic and not directed toward you. It was a way to reply to what someone might ask. 

If you are changing strings several times in 72 hours, I have to ask why? 

Mandolins are related to guitar using the criteria of projection, tone, and ease of play. 

I have no agenda. I don't sell or own a shop which might sell the product being discussed. 

Regardless of how knowledgeable and respected you or anyone else here is, it is the player who decides when a musical instrument is performing. The customer is always right in this situation. Telling the customer that something will happen, that it will be positive, but being indefinite about what that positive transition will mean or when it will occur, in misleading and always has been. 

There is also the theory that an instrument does not need to just be played, but played well for positive results to occur. This is also a consideration for any prospective buyer of products designed to improve and instrument. 

I am not digging in as you supposed, but giving my opinion as you are yours. 

Regards, 

chuck

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## Chuck Naill

> Why would a pre-war Martin be a standard???  Standard of what??? Certainly not acoustic guitars in general.  Many don't like the tone of pre-war Martins and if played hard they can get muddy.  That was one reason for the Changes in Martin in the 40's as the guitar continued to become more popular. .


The reason for the changes were due to heavier gauge strings and to prevent warrantee claims, Joe. Martin was not attempting to change the tone of their guitars. I have never read or heard anyone make that claim. 

My observation is that in many BG and traditional settings, the Martin or Martin copy of a prewar D-18 or D-28 is the standard. I have never heard of someone trying to reproduce the tone of a '55 D-28. Most builders catering to the needs of payers performing in acoustic settings are wanting to produce a product that can be heard and easily played. I agree that Gibson had its day, but the quality of that brand has always been so variable that no one could depend on it much as they were able to depend on Martin. 

Many here are looking to the Loar era mandolin as the standard. I suspect that there is a projection and an ease of play that is a part of the preference. 

I am not questioning your test of the product being discussed. However, it was subjective and you do sell or can sell the product at your business. What the consumer must do is wade through all of this and decide what is best for them considering the possible side effects. As in any discussion, both sides need to be addressed and respectfully considered. For the most part, I think it have been. 

chuck

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## SternART

> If you are changing strings several times in 72 hours, I have to ask why? chuck


Grisman changes strings for every performance.

I've followed this thread and weighed in earlier..........I thought Siminoff's dedamping did wonders for two of my mandolins, resulting in a more balanced instrument.........and I've had success with the Tonerite as well, but not as dramatic.  I'm still a believer, and while I don't use mine on a daily basis, I couldn't give mine up for a traveling tour.

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## buckles

Seems to me, to summarize what I've read in this thread, that a number of people have said that they find some benefit from the ToneRite.  Another set of people have responded with, "Prove it."  Another set of people have questioned the way the argument is being framed.  Aren't these signs that the debate has gone about as far as it can profitably go?

As a final note, I'm trying to remember whether anyone has said, "I tried it and found it to be of no use."  Has anyone?

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## MikeEdgerton

Hard to summarize 11 pages of messages, howver I do have my favorite two quotes from the entire thread. They are:

"The Tonerite information states it will not make a poor sounding or constructed instrument sound better, it brings out the inherent qualities of the instrument. "

--Amandalyn

"I think it all ends on whether YOU think it will be of value to you or not. That is also a purely subjective decision, and often based on emotions. Most decisions we make...especially when it comes to our beloved musical instruments...is based on an emotional response rather than science."

--Big Joe

Two honest statements. A dog is a dog. Start out with one that sounds good and you won't go wrong. Secondly, if you don't think a Tonerite is right for you save your money and don't buy one. Seems pretty simple.

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## Big Joe

Day 5 finished on the LM400 mandolin.  I continue to be impressed with the results.  It has certainly improved the G string without question.  Today, and it could be the result of the tone rites continued use, or the weather today, but it is a bit more balanced across the instrument.  It has not lost any impact on the G string, but is more balanced today.  Again, it is hard to say what the reason is and what may be the outcome had the weather been a bit drier.  I can only report what I see and hear and the response of those around me.  I can say the tone rite has made a noticeable difference on this mandolin and it has been a positive difference in my perspective.  

The difference is a bit more dramatic on the LM400 as far as improving the range of the instrument than on the Gibson, but I have used it for 2 more days on the mandolin, and did not want any further time on the guitar.  I forgot to bring it again today...old age creeping in....but I am going to try it on another guitar in a much lower price range and see what the results are of that experiment.  

I have not had the noise on the mandolin that I got from the guitar.  Probably body size and difference in construction.  Not much else to say about this one today.  I will report again tomorrow.  So far, if asked would I buy one for myself, I would have to answer that it depends upon what I wanted to do with it and what instrument I wanted to put it on.  I probably would not have bought one for the Gibson acoustic.  I did not think it needed improving when I started, and though I did notice a real difference in the time it was on the guitar, I was not unhappy with the guitar to begin with.  Am I sorry I used it on the guitar?  Not at all.  Just that I would not have thought it needed any improvement before I started.  I was pretty surprised with the outcome though.

For the mandolin I would very possibly have bought one.  While it was a good mandolin to begin with, and I may have been able to make the same changes with some other work, it certainly has made a positive difference.  I think it would be a good purchase for this instrument.  The other advantage, is that once purchased, it is there for future use.  In our case, I think it could be a useful tool in the shop as well.  Whether anyone else should buy one is totally up to them.  

I will say again that I would not have purchased one period before this experiment.  I was the total skeptic.  For me, the proof is in the pudding.  I can now see the value in the product as an investment over a long period of time.  The fact that it does not have to be permanently attached to any instrument and can be used when needed on what is needed is an advantage and makes it no more of an investment than any of the other tools I have in my collection.  For that it is worth it to me.  Most of us have spent far more on picks, cases, straps, tuners, and other attachments that probably have less real value than this does.  The main difference is that this is a bit more of an investment out front.  It is better than a Blue Chip pick?  Probably over time, though it costs 4-5 times as much.  I am not getting rid of my blue chip pick though.  Again, I view it as a tool that has a place and purpose and really nothing more.  I have chisels that cost more than that and toolboxes full of tools that we use...some often, others not so often but when that tool is needed, it is needed.  The same with this.  It is less than what I paid for a particular router that I have used only a few times in the last 2 1/2 years, but when it is needed, it sure saves time and effort.  

I will report what I see tomorrow and if I have any different opinions then.  I would certainly be interested in hearing if anyone has tried it and did not like it.  I have never heard anything negative from anyone but everything I have heard has been positive.

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## mandotrout777

> Seems to me, to summarize what I've read in this thread, that a number of people have said that they find some benefit from the ToneRite.  Another set of people have responded with, "Prove it."  Another set of people have questioned the way the argument is being framed.  Aren't these signs that the debate has gone about as far as it can profitably go?
> 
> As a final note, I'm trying to remember whether anyone has said, "I tried it and found it to be of no use."  Has anyone?


I've been looking into the tonerite for a while now and there have been a few users who reported no benefit from it, but those reports have been rather rare.  Maybe there are others who just don't want to admit spending the money on something that didn't work for them(?).  But in this day of online reviews and "outing" of bad products and customer service, I kind of doubt it.  

The Collings guitar forum mentioned earlier showed that out of 122 users, 7 reported no difference and 1 said it made the guitar sound worse.  94 reported moderate to drastic improvement and 20 said the guitar was just "somewhat" improved.  All of which, I think, matches pretty well with the manufacturer's claims. 

It is all subjective of course, but then music is subjective isn't it?  It's a little hard for me to swallow that all of these people are delusional though.

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## MikeEdgerton

I think the concern of some people is that people will think this device can make their mandolin that doesn't sound very good now sound great. The company itself dismisses that notion. 

The truth be told, this is one of those esoteric things that one chases when they are looking to wring every last ounce out of whatever it is they are doing. You have a mandolin that you think sounds great but you want to take it to the highest level it can get to so you've paid for the professional setup, been through all the string choices and found the ones you like the best, tried every pick known to man and found the one that works for you. Still looking for that next step you try this. It's really no different than changing out your stamped tailpiece for the James tailpiece or whatever. It's the search for the best that can be had out of the instrument. If it works or doesn't work for you it makes no difference, you simply move on to the next thing that promises change. How it works, why it works or even if it works doesn't really matter. You're on the journey, the quest for perfection. 

Nobody in there right mind would suggest using a tonerite before you settled on the right strings, pick, and setup. This is an advanced step, not the beginning of the process.

My entire house is wired with Monster cable that cost me a fortune. Can I hear the difference? I don't know but I really like knowing it's there behind the walls.

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## Chuck Naill

> Grisman changes strings for every performance.
> 
> I've followed this thread and weighed in earlier..........I thought Siminoff's dedamping did wonders for two of my mandolins, resulting in a more balanced instrument.........and I've had success with the Tonerite as well, but not as dramatic.  I'm still a believer, and while I don't use mine on a daily basis, I couldn't give mine up for a traveling tour.


Peter Ostroushko told me, because he hates to change strings, he only does so once a year. Here we have two great professionals with very differing ideas. I suppose it really does not matter which is correct but simply an example of a subjective preference. In the end for me this is what the thread comes down to. If you are dissatisfied get a Tone Rite. If you are satisfied, there is no need for additional devices. 

I would hate to think that a machine like this would be needed on a $25K mandolin. It would surprise me if a machine like this is needed on a $10K mandolin. If I paid $2000 for a mandolin I might be tempted, but a bit upset that I would need one. If I have a $500 mandolin, I might need one, but the company claims that a poorly made instrument is not going to be helped  using this product. Thus we have a dilemma.

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## Big Joe

Chuck...I kind of said something much the same.  I only think it has possibilities that are greater than that after experimenting with it.  It is not the anwer to all the problems in stringed instrument world, but much like Mike said, just another step in the endless quest for the next step.  I will say again, it is not a magic pill and will not make a poor instrument good, or a good instrument incredible, or an incredible instrument the best on the planet, but it can help give the best your instrument is capable of giving once all the important issues are resolved.  If you instrument needs a good setup, do that first.  Get any structural issues resolved.  Then, if you wish, go the next step and do the tone rite if you want to get that last drop out of it.

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## SternART

[QUOTE=Chuck Naill;819661]Peter Ostroushko told me, because he hates to change strings, he only does so once a year. Here we have two great professionals with very differing ideas. I suppose it really does not matter which is correct but simply an example of a subjective preference. 


Grisman breaks strings if he doesn't start with fresh ones for a performance.  Guess he picks harder than Peter.

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## Chuck Naill

> Chuck...I kind of said something much the same.  I only think it has possibilities that are greater than that after experimenting with it.  It is not the anwer to all the problems in stringed instrument world, but much like Mike said, just another step in the endless quest for the next step.  I will say again, it is not a magic pill and will not make a poor instrument good, or a good instrument incredible, or an incredible instrument the best on the planet, but it can help give the best your instrument is capable of giving once all the important issues are resolved.  If you instrument needs a good setup, do that first.  Get any structural issues resolved.  Then, if you wish, go the next step and do the tone rite if you want to get that last drop out of it.


Good advice there, Joe. I trust you know that no disrespect was ever intended toward you or anyone else during this discussion. 

I have thought about our discussion and got this in my email in box yesterday, http://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/20107/11424/. I am wondering if you agree with the idea that its not just play but the quality of play this improves an instrument. In your opinion, does a device like Tone-Right offer a variety of tones to mimic normal quality play?

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## Rick Turner

Here and on several of the guitar forums I follow, it seems that those who do not believe in artificial methods of "opening up" and instrument have not ever tried it, while a majority of those who have tried it...especially those who have tried it on a variety of different instruments...become the believers.   

Also, most dis-believers are NOT luthiers who build instruments and get to hear them during the process of building and in the first week of strung up life.   I do not know one single guitar maker or mandolin maker...or banjo maker, for that matter...who does not believe in short term, medium term, and long term tonal and volume changes in instruments.   Is that scientific?  No.   That does not make it untrue.  Science is not absolute truth, it's merely an attempt to explain that which is already true.

There's that old thing about closed minds...   Maybe a ToneRite on the head is the answer...

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## Big Joe

I think I would agree for the most part that quality of play is going to help more than just playing...as long as it is done often.  Good technique coupled with good intonation, and good playing will certainly help an instrument develop better than just noise produced.  Any vibration can be helpful, but when played at the right pitch and with the right clarity it will help develop the best tone faster.  Much like setting a guitar in front of a speaker, it will vibrate the instrument and help it open up.  That can be less expensive than a tone rite, but not always as convenient.  The tone rite can be used in places and times when it is not conventient to use the stereo, and it is much quieter.  It is also a bit more controlable.  The tone rite vibrates at only one frequency at a time, but it is adjustable to various frequencies by means of a potentiometer on a control attached to the cord.  I did change the frequency on the guitar, but have not changed it on the mandolin.  

From what I understand the tone rites have been set to particular frequency ranges for the kind of instrument it is going to be used on.  I would like to see one that varies the frequency at certain intervals to see what difference that makes.  According to the literature that came with it, the frequency can be set to affect certain responses on the instrument.  If it is set at the slowest speed then it will enhance the bottom end response.  If it is turned up, it will enhance the mids/ highs more.  That was what I experienced on the guitar.  

This is what I can tell you at this point.  It has been an interesting experiment and actually, kind of fun to test something new.  I guess I'm easily bored  :Smile:  .

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## SternART

Siminoff's more involved dedamping includes finding the resonant frequencies of the top, back, and tone bars.  Then a signal generator is used to excite the instrument at these specific frequencies.

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## Chuck Naill

> Siminoff's more involved dedamping includes finding the resonant frequencies of the top, back, and tone bars.  Then a signal generator is used to excite the instrument at these specific frequencies.


Roger's process certainly makes more sense musically than a single resonance resonating device. 

If an instrument does not perform I am not likely at my level of experience and understanding to spend money and time attempting to get the tone I want using these methods or devices. I tried these things 25 years ago and got no where.  I would lean more toward radical wood removal if I could find a luthier competent and willing. More likely I would simply get another instrument. 

Also, if a product does not give me what I need new or old, I would never buy it on a chance that it might "open up" later nor would I allow someone else's opinion, builder or player,  about something as subjective as tone to define what open means for me. These are personal choices IMO.

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## Cheryl Watson

I don't need scientific evidence/data to convince my ears that the Tonerite works.  My ears and my hands tell me it does work.  I never buy instruments/strings/picks, etc. based on scientific evidence and it was no different with the Tonerite.  Vibration is only one factor that opens up an instrument, age being the other major one, but my Tonerites are an excellent tool to help the response/tone/volume of my instruments.

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## SincereCorgi

There seems to be an implication in some of these posts that the folks who are skeptical about the ToneRite are a bunch of close-minded killjoys who can only be convinced by an expensive double-blind test done with thousands of instruments under clinical conditions.

This is not the case.

In fact, it should be easy. If it only takes three days, and works with pretty much any decent new instrument (something like a The Loar), then maybe somebody can be bothered to just record the instrument with a decent microphone on days 1, 2, and 3- before ToneRite treatment, then on days 1, 2, and 3 as the treatment starts (or whatever). This isn't a great or pure experiment by any means, but if the change is so obvious then it ought to be apparent that something has changed. Big Joe has practically already done this, even, just without the recordings.

I would like to express preemptive annoyance if somebody says 'well, we don't need to do an experiment, we believe already.'

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## Willie Poole

Question....After using the Tonerite and the instrument "Opens up" how long does it stay at that level or is it something that one would have to do often?   I haven`t read all of the posts on this subject and if this was answered before forgive me for asking it again....Willie

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## buckles

I can't quantify other than to say that, in my experience, the increase in resonance is temporary.

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## Chuck Naill

> There seems to be an implication in some of these posts that the folks who are skeptical about the ToneRite are a bunch of close-minded killjoys who can only be convinced by an expensive double-blind test done with thousands of instruments under clinical conditions.
> 
> This is not the case.
> 
> In fact, it should be easy. If it only takes three days, and works with pretty much any decent new instrument (something like a The Loar), then maybe somebody can be bothered to just record the instrument with a decent microphone on days 1, 2, and 3- before ToneRite treatment, then on days 1, 2, and 3 as the treatment starts (or whatever). This isn't a great or pure experiment by any means, but if the change is so obvious then it ought to be apparent that something has changed. Big Joe has practically already done this, even, just without the recordings.
> 
> I would like to express preemptive annoyance if somebody says 'well, we don't need to do an experiment, we believe already.'


I had thought of recording the difference/possible difference also as a way to evaluate. Tone Rite should have already performed this for us and we would not be discussing/arguing.

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## Big Joe

Day 6 of the LM400 is over, and the mandolin sounds great.  Much better than originally, and I thought it was pretty good to begin with.  The only problem is that I cannot do day 7.  When I took it off the wall to check it today, a customer heard it and could not live without it.  I'm not sure whether to be sad he could not wait another day, or happy to see it gone  :Smile:  .  I will put it on another mandolin and see what happens with that.  I did bring the guitar tone rite with me today, so I will put it on a guitar today as well.  I will post tomorrow what I put them on, and the results of the tests as we go.  If there is no improvement I will report that as well.  I do want to be honest and straight up with what results I see.  

The LM400 was a bit more balanced again today without losing the improvement on the G string.  I has really become a nice mandolin (not that it wasn't before).  I don't have a clue how long the results will last, but with my Gibson Advanced Jumbo the change continues.  It was on that guitar for 3 days.  Of course, that guitar gets played daily for at least fifteen or twenty minutes a day.  If it begins to loose the changes I will report that as well.

Someone mentioned Roger Siminoff's method of dedamping may be better than the tone rite, and I certainly would not disagree with that.  Roger is a friend, and one of the voices in lutherie that I truly respect and listen to.  I have full confidence that his method may give more significant results.  However, that may not be practical or cost effective for many and the tone rite can certainly fill that bill.  The other advantage with the tone rite is that it can be used on more than one instrument (not at a time), and there is no additional expense for that.  How one would compare to the other in a longer time I also cannot say.  As Rick mentioned above, I have never met a luthier that did not believe in instruments 'breaking in' over time or with help.  I personally think that is science.  When enough experts can agree on anything there must be a very significant basis for that agreement  :Smile:  .  Well, that in enough for today.  Maybe the next instrument will walk out before the experiment is complete as well.  If that happens, I may have to buy several more!!!

----------


## buckles

> I had thought of recording the difference/possible difference also as a way to evaluate. Tone Rite should have already performed this for us and we would not be discussing/arguing.


I'm thinking that a test conducted by the manufacturer of a controversial product, to validate that product, would not settle many arguments.

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## Big Joe

I believe they have done tests to determine the validity of the product.  What those tests were I cannot say but we did talk about this at NAMM.  Again, being probably the biggest skeptic pre experiment, I was not easy to get on board.  I now have the mandolin tone rite on a Sumi F5 (new) and the guitar tone rite on a new recording king acoustic.  The low end recording king.  I think this will make an interesting test.  The first tests were on a high end guitar and budget mandolin.  Now it is on a higher end mandolin and a budget guitar.  It will be interesting to see how this test does.

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## Cheryl Watson

> Question....After using the Tonerite and the instrument "Opens up" how long does it stay at that level or is it something that one would have to do often?   I haven`t read all of the posts on this subject and if this was answered before forgive me for asking it again....Willie


I think this is a good question. Vibrating an instrument seems to have a temporary effect unless an instrument gets a lot of play after the vibration treatment.  I can only speak from my own experience, of course, but if I do not play a particular guitar or mandolin for two or three days (especially my red spruce topped instruments) it tends to lose some amount of fullness/depth/volume/responsiveness and then I use the Tonerite for at least 4 hrs. and it all comes back.  

If I play an instrument strongly at least every other day, I don't feel the need to Tonerite it.  If I use the Tonerite on an instrument but then do not play it much over the next four or five days, it starts to go back asleep.  So, I'd say on average, I Tonerite my red spruce-topped instruments once a week to once every two weeks. I also Tonerite before I record serious tracks in my studio and then my hands have to warm up, but my guitar/mandolin is already responsive and ready to go so after a four or five run-throughs, I can get a nice sounding track.

I am using my Tonerite mostly on my red spruce topped Lucas dread which is less than two years old and my Kimble A5 (also red spruce topped) which is under a year old.  They both tend to go to sleep and they are relatively new instruments.  I use the Tonerite much less on an older mandolin that has a sitka top.  This is just my experience and YMMV.

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## Amandalyn

I could entertain the idea of a "Traveling Tonerite" that I will donate for the process. We must come up with some rules and guidelines that each participant will agree to. My first suggestions would be to limit it to 6 people, who use it for no longer than one week, and pass it to the next person, paying the shipping costs. At the end it is returned to me. If it is "lost" somewhere along the line, we need an agreement, something like each participant agrees to pay a percentage for the cost. (this could be done upfront- $25. a person with a refund when it is successfully passed to the next guy) Something like this was done awhile back with a large assortment of picks that traveled around the country.

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## jswag

I would like to be considered for one of the "six" or what ever is decided. I have a Henderson mandolin (28 years old,- I am the original owner), a 2 year old Jade, and a 3 year old Eastman Mandola that does not get played enough.I have been around the block, but I am not a Luthier.  I fall somewhere in the category of where Big Joe was when he first started all this "testing", although I admit  after all I have read, I believe the Tonerite sounds very good...So I will leave it to the "powers that be" to select who will get to be the chosen few..I do think that if Chuck would like to be, he should be part of the test.
Thanks to all for what they have said in this thread.
Jeff

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## Amandalyn

Ok, we have on board: ( for the Traveling Tonerite round 1)
1. Jeffrey S Wagner (jswag)

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## bratsche

Will it fit on a mandola?    :Confused: 

bratsche

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## Big Joe

Day 1 of the 2nd experiment complete.  I put the mandolin tone rite on a Sumi mandolin.  This is a very nice F model mandolin and is a great instrument to start with.  Just for fun I did not change the strings, which need changing, but left them so a string change could not affect my observation.  After day 1 the Sumi is significantly louder and fuller sounding and there is a bit more on the bottom end.  This mandolin did not lack anything to begin with, but is a new mandolin that has been unplayed except for very short periods when beign tried out.  The effect is much similar to taking a good mandolin and playing it for several hours in a day or two time period.  It sounds very open.  I am anxious to see if there are any additional changes in the next few days.  This is what I would have imagined the mandolin to sound like after it had been used for awhile.  In this case, the tone rite does exactly what it claims, and that is to make it sound as if it had been played hard for a period of time.  What are the long term effects?  I can't say.  If left unplayed for a period of time I would suspect it would lose its effect the same as leaving a mandolin uplayed for a period of time can affect it in the same manner.  I guess I have a good feeling but not terribly surprised at this point.

The guitar tone rite was placed on a Recording King RD06S ... solid spruce top, laminated African mahogany back and sides, dovetail neck joint, scalloped X braces, bone nut and saddle, and a satin poly finish.  This is the bottom of the totum pole RK guitar and that is why it was chosen for this experiment.  I wanted to see if it would affect an entry level guitar in a low price range (we sell this for about 350 with hard shell case and set up with new strings).  They are very good guitars for the money and are quite surprising in tone and playability and volume.  That being said, it is an entry priced guitar and whether the tone rite would affect the laminated back and sides the same as a solid was what I really was curious about.

Day 1 was pretty dramatic.  The volume, just like on the other 3 instruments I have placed it on was substantially greater.  This guitar was a bit softer in volume than the other RK's that we have had through our place.  Now it is as loud or louder than any of them.  However, just because it is louder does not indicate it is better.  That is a different item.  In this case, it has again, improved the bottom end and seems to give the entire frequency spectrum a boost.  The result so far is an improvement in both volume and tone on this guitar as well.  It will be interesting to see what the next few days do on this guitar as well.  Again, the strings that were on it were left on it.  They are the factory strings that came with the guitar.  They are pretty cheap strings and who knows how long they have been on there or how old the strings are.  They are likely ordered by the company in bulk and we usually find just changing the strings alone will improve the guitar.  In this case I did not change the strings first because I did not want that to affect the test in any way.  

Well, so far it is pretty interesting.  I think it is a great tool for the shop by what I have observed so far.  It is nice to be able to put one on an instrument for a period of time...even a short period...and have a good idea what it will sound like when it is played for a period of time.  My Gibson AJ has been off the tone rite for 6 days so far, and it has not lost any of the changes.  Again, this instrument is played for a period of time every day and is left in the living room on a stand where it is influenced by the other instruments that are played, the tv, the stereo, and everyday noise.  That alone will cause some vibration, though not as much as the tone rite does.  

Someone has asked if it would fit a mandola.   I have a Lebeda mandola in the store and I put the mandolin tone rite on that to see if it would fit.  It does.  Maybe after this mandolin I may test the mandola.  We'll see.  Hopefully this answers a question or two.

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## Kevin K

Big Joe, how's the AJ now, still as good when you took tone rite off, or back to sleep a little?

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## mandotrout777

Okay, I should be getting a tonerite today.  I can't make any promises because my recording skills are **** and I've never tried converting something to MP3 and posting on the web and all that, but I'm going to try to make some before and after recordings and post them.  I plan to put it on my Yellowstone that has an adi top.  It's a little more than a year old and I've played it quite a bit.  Hopefully I'll start tonight and have sound clips in a few days.  I plan to use my spare room that I can lock up (little kids in the house), and just leave the recording stuff all set up.  We'll see how it goes.

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## Big Joe

Hey Kevin...The AJ is still the same as when I took the tone rite off.  It is still as good but I do play it daily as well.  I will let you know if I notice any change.  

I don't have a problem with recording before and afters except I don't do that well with modern recording stuff.  I know it is supposed to be easy, but I have not had time to work with that and I probably should...in my spare time  :Smile:  .  The other problem with recording is that the end product is only as good as the recorder, mic, person doing the recording, and what it is played back on.  Many computers don't have really good speakers and won't do a very good job of giving a fair comparison.  It may be better than nothing....but it may not.  In any case, recording is to me as subjective as well.  Not that that is bad, and I welcome your recordings.  While I may not be any good at recording things for the internet, I think it could be interesting to see the difference.  Just my random thoughts.

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## mandotrout777

> Hey Kevin...The AJ is still the same as when I took the tone rite off.  It is still as good but I do play it daily as well.  I will let you know if I notice any change.  
> 
> I don't have a problem with recording before and afters except I don't do that well with modern recording stuff.  I know it is supposed to be easy, but I have not had time to work with that and I probably should...in my spare time  .  The other problem with recording is that the end product is only as good as the recorder, mic, person doing the recording, and what it is played back on.  Many computers don't have really good speakers and won't do a very good job of giving a fair comparison.  It may be better than nothing....but it may not.  In any case, recording is to me as subjective as well.  Not that that is bad, and I welcome your recordings.  While I may not be any good at recording things for the internet, I think it could be interesting to see the difference.  Just my random thoughts.


I agree that capturing all the subtleties of an instrument's sound is an art best left to the pros.  I'll see what I come up with using my budget equipment and limited skill.  I guess I'll reserve the right to not post them if they ain't up to snuff.  In fact, that could be why we haven't seen more recordings like this already.  I suspect that even in cases where the change is drastic to the player/owner of an instrument, what gets captured on a recording is probably much harder to hear.

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## foldedpath

> The other problem with recording is that the end product is only as good as the recorder, mic, person doing the recording, and what it is played back on.  Many computers don't have really good speakers and won't do a very good job of giving a fair comparison.  It may be better than nothing....but it may not.  In any case, recording is to me as subjective as well.


Recording doesn't have to be subjective. Put the mandolin in a jig, and make a simple gadget that drops a pick across the strings, so it's repeatable and eliminates the human player variable. Tune the mandolin to an open chord so it sounds pleasant when the pick is dragged across the strings with this gadget. Any good woodworker could set this up.

Now make your before-and-after recordings. Any increase in "quality of tone" might be subjective, and all we could do is have a large enough group listen to blind recordings, and shoot for a general consensus (if people can hear anything at all).

But there is one thing that isn't subjective at all, and that's the claims that this device increases the _volume output_ of the instrument!

That is very easy to measure objectively, even in basic free audio software like Audacity, although you can dig a little deeper with tools like WaveLab. Just look at the waveform peaks, and compare it between the two recordings. If there is enough of a volume increase to pass the threshold of human hearing (I forget exactly what that is.. maybe 3db?), then we've got something here. 

Volume increase does not require human judgment to measure, and we don't need a blind comparison test between listeners for this. The audio software will either show that it's there, and at a significant enough level for people to hear, or it won't.

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## mandotrout777

For the most part I've tried to stay out of these opening up/tonerite threads.  I think that's the best approach for me, so I've reconsidered my idea to post recordings.  I sure as heck am not going to try and build some jig-strumming device.  Anybody interested in my subjective opinion is welcome to PM me in the days ahead.  Thanks to Big Joe for adding his perspective to the discussion.

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## SincereCorgi

> I sure as heck am not going to try and build some jig-strumming device.


Man, don't even worry about building a special mandolin playing machine. It would be greatly appreciated if you put up some recordings for the curious, no matter how DIY the methods. Just use your computer's microphone, even, if it has one.

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## foldedpath

> For the most part I've tried to stay out of these opening up/tonerite threads.  I think that's the best approach for me, so I've reconsidered my idea to post recordings.  I sure as heck am not going to try and build some jig-strumming device.  Anybody interested in my subjective opinion is welcome to PM me in the days ahead.


Jeff, I wasn't trying to discourage you with that last post, it was directed at Joe's comment about recordings always being subjective. 

The problem with recording without a repeatable method like I mentioned, is that we all have good days and bad days on our instruments, right? 

I've recorded myself on days where I thought I sounded pretty good, and other days when I immediately hit the "delete" key on the computer I use for recording, because it was a day when I just wasn't on my game. This is an additional layer superimposed on top of any "test" for vibration methods that needs to be eliminated, if we're going to judge this effect with a recording (IMO).

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## Big Joe

Well, day 2 is over and I have played both instruments.  First I will talk about the Sumi.  It is a great mandolin, but it has certainly been improved in the last 2 days.  The power and volume is improved substantially.  It sounds like I would expect this mandolin to sound after a few years of hard playing.  The bass response has been improved, but so has the entire sonic spectrum.  The tone is improved overall more than yesterday when the bottom end was increased.  The improvement has been across the entire frequency range.  While I thought this was a pretty good mandolin to begin with, it certainly has become what could be called REAL good.  The change in a mandolin of that quality was surprising to me.  I don't know why, but it certainly has.

The RK guitar shows similar results.  It improved more on the bottom end and also across the rest of the tonal spectrum.  Volume may be slightly improved from yesterday but more noticeably the tone.  It does not lack any volume and when I was playing it a customer came in the store and was more than impressed with the tone and volume and thought it was substantially more expensive than it was.  Again, it was decent to start with but the improvement has been substantial.

I am anxious to see what tomorrow...or Monday brings.  That will give me a real idea of how it performs.  To date I will say I am certainly impressed with the tone rite.  I have no idea how long the results last, but it certainly has made a difference in the short term.

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## Chuck Naill

> I am anxious to see what tomorrow...or Monday brings.  That will give me a real idea of how it performs.  To date I will say I am certainly impressed with the tone rite.  I have no idea how long the results last, but it certainly has made a difference in the short term.


How would you respond if someone asked if you thought that playing the instrument might have achieved the same results? 

I priced the Tone-Rite at $265. I have no idea what the current MSRP might be presently. I was thinking what you could do set up wise for that amount of  money that would be lasting. An excellent bridge from Cumberland Acoustic is around $45 last time I bought one.

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## swain

Chuck, the Tonrite price is $149, includes shipping and a set of strings.  At least this was the price earlier in the week when I ordered mine.   Hope this doesn't start another quarrel.

swain
Vega F
pacrim A
Weber YS
Ratliff R5
Peterson Octave
000-42EC
etc

----------


## Big Joe

I may be old, but I think I recall stating several times that the best money is spent on set up and structural issues first  :Smile:  .  The tone rite list for 199 but street price about 150.  If you were only going to use it on one instrument one time and then dispose of it there would be limited value.  However, it can be used on any number of instruments you chose (one at a time) or rent/ lend it to friends or bandmates.  Then it becomes less expensive.

Do I think playing it hard for a decent period of time would to the same?  Yep.  That is exactly what it does is break it in/ warm it up/ open it up (chose your term) so you have it sounding its best without having to play that long or hard to get it there.  You could not play enough in a few days to develop the same results you get with the tone rite, but the result is simply that of hearing what it will be like after significant play time.  Again, the results would be better and more dramatic if the instrument is in proper condition to begin with.

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## Chuck Naill

> Chuck, the Tonrite price is $149, includes shipping and a set of strings.  At least this was the price earlier in the week when I ordered mine.   Hope this doesn't start another quarrel.
> 
> swain
> Vega F
> pacrim A
> Weber YS
> Ratliff R5
> Peterson Octave
> 000-42EC
> etc



Not at all regarding initiating an argument.  Thank you. 

chuck

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## Chuck Naill

> Do I think playing it hard for a decent period of time would to the same?  Yep.


Then I think that would be my first inclination rather than the Tone-Rite or any other method. 

Are you going to put one on the Ramsey 12"? :Laughing:

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## Big Joe

I have contemplated it, but I can't put it down long enough.  I love playing it!  I don't know how it would react, but it would be interesting to see how a banjo would respond to a tone rite.  I have not checked the web site, so I don't know if they make one.  They say they are set for particular instruments, but I don't know why a guitar tone rite would not work.  Sounds like fun though....but then there is that whole thing about making a banjo louder....  :Smile:  .

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## Big Joe

Hey Chuck...just checked the web site.  They don't have a banjo model, but I may try one on a banjo anyway just to see what it does.  Sounds more frightening as I think about it  :Smile:  .

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## Cheryl Watson

> I have contemplated it, but I can't put it down long enough.  I love playing it!  I don't know how it would react, but it would be interesting to see how a banjo would respond to a tone rite.  I have not checked the web site, so I don't know if they make one.  They say they are set for particular instruments, but I don't know why a guitar tone rite would not work.  Sounds like fun though....but then there is that whole thing about making a banjo louder....  .


Too funny!  But I do suspect that a Tonerite might work on a brand new open-back with a wooden tone ring.

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## Dale Ludewig

It's sound pretty frightening to me!

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## Big Joe

Well, day 5 is over on the experiment with the Sumi mandolin and the RK guitar.  The results are both about the same.  Continued increase in tone and volume.  The volume increase over the weekend is more noticeable on the guitar and the bottom end response has continued to improve.  The entire spectrum has improved and sounds very good on both instruments.  The mandolin has not lost any of the bottom end that it had last Friday, but the entire spectrum has improved as well as a bit of improvement in the volume.  This was a nice mandolin to begin with, but was a little bit quiet.  That is certainly not the case anymore!

The guitar was originally one of the quietest of the RK's that I have had come through, though it sounded good.  The change in volume has been very substantial as well as the tone.  In the beginning I was under the impression it would not make much different on high end instruments.  That has proven to be wrong.  In addition, I was pretty convinced a laminated back and sides guitar might see slight improvement, but not much.  The RK also has a poly finish and this is the first poly instrument that I have put the tone rite on.  I really did not think it would give much improvement with the poly finish either.  Well, I like my crow grilled with bbq sauce.  I probably will have enough to last me through the winter, because I certainly cannot eat it all at once!  :Smile:  .  

This test has been good for me.  Sometimes we can forge opinions that can be hard to change.  Experience and time develops certain preferences and we can become a bit set in our ways.  While the concept of the tone rite was not problematic to me, I really just thought it was a waste of time and money and another gimmick.  If you have been around long enough, you have seen so many useless things that you can get a bit jaded with innovation.  On the other hand, I don't want to become so set in my ways that I cannot be "taught a new trick".  I do get a bit more selective on which things I may look at just for times sake.  In this case, they provided the product and it is a minimal time investment to test the product.  Once I decided I would get involved, I wanted to see it fail just to uphold my prejudice.  I have been wrong...dead wrong...and I am not afraid to say so.  I had judged a product without time or opportunity to see if it was valuable in any manner, and for that I apolagize to the people at tone rite, and the consumers who have asked my opinion and I said I thought it was a waste of time.  To all of them I must say I was wrong.  I am also happy to say so, because this is a product that has proven to me to be well worth its time and likely its price.  It has performed on every instrument that I have tried it on with results much greater than I could have imagined.  Thank you.

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## man dough nollij

I had a thought about testing before and after de-damping... It can't be truly scientific, because vibrating the instrument might affect the _strings_. Do strings go dead just from being vibrated for days? Even if you put brand new strings on before each test, it would be subject to variations in the strings. I've noticed that some folks here on the Cafe don't like the sound of new strings, so they might be hearing a change in the strings, rather than the mandolin. Hard to know.

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## Jim DeSalvio

Big Joe,

Thanks for reporting your observations.  I will admit that I have been on the ToneRite bandwagon for some time, and what you have observed is very similar to my experience.  I have one for guitar and mandolin, and think they were great investments.

Do you feel that the use of the ToneRite does anything to the strings?

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## Big Joe

On the first instruments I tested the strings were pretty new.  On the next two the strings were well past fried and should have been changed, but I wanted to do the test without string wear being an issue.  The end results was the same.  I don't think that the vibrations would affect the string life or tone.  In each of the mandolins and guitars the instruments did not go out of tune with the tone rite on it.  I would think that string wear would at least demonstrate itself with changes in tuning as they sit for a few days.  The fact they did not go out of tune was a big surprise to me.  The end result is that the instruments sounded significantly better after the tone rite and the strings were not the cause of the effect.

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## Skip Kelley

Big Joe, Thanks and a great job! It takes a lot of time to test and document as you have done!

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## Kevin K

Yes Big Joe, thanks for all your time and input!

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## Big Joe

Day 6 and the results are continuing.  I don't know that they are any louder today, but the tone continues to develop nicely.  The balance continues to improve without any other tone loss.  The results are wonderful, but I have come to expect these results and it is nice to know I can begin to predict an outcome.  The same results were on both instruments....high end and cheap.  Tomorrow is day 7 and we will see what the end results are, though I don't expect any decrease in anything.  I am certainly happy with the results and the customers who come through the store are very impressed as well.  They cannot believe they sound so good with the really bad strings on them.  Time to go back to work  :Smile:  .

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## Michael Lewis

Thanks for the testing and illuminating report , Joe.  You found more eloquent and descriptive words than I did, but we both found much the same results from the instruments.

I think you may have finally brought this thread to it's conclusion. :Wink:

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## Rick Turner

Mike, while I agree with your sentiments, I wish you good luck in your hopeful conclusions!  This is just one of those subjects that provokes controversy...from those who don't build instruments!

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## Big Joe

Day 7 complete.  Today one of our regular customers was in.  He played both the Sumi and the RK acoustic guitar before the test...about 2 weeks ago.  He took them off the wall and played them.  He was blown away with the difference.  He said the mandolin was night and day different.  He did not like it before, but was amazed at how it sounded now.  The guitar he thought was a nice guitar for the money before the test, but was, again, amazed at the tone it has now.  The results are similar for all who have played or heard them.  The tone improved on the first couple days on the bottom end, but became very well balanced as the test continued.  I guess I am probably through with this series of posts.  It has been completely successful and I have been very impressed.  

For those who doubt, give it a try and see what happens.  I think you will be amazed.  Will it work on every instrument?  I don't know.  I can only speak for the ones I've tested, but the test has been enough to tell me it does what it says it does.  If I should find it does not work on some instrument, I would be happy to report that as well. 

Has this test by objective...yes and no.  Nonetheless, it is objective enough for me to be happy.  It certainly is subjective, but most things are...at least in the acceptance of test results and information.  Thank each of you for your questions and I have enjoyed this test and think it was a lot of fun.

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## foldedpath

> Mike, while I agree with your sentiments, I wish you good luck in your hopeful conclusions!  This is just one of those subjects that provokes controversy...from those who don't build instruments!


Those who don't build instruments are your potential customers. Does it serve your marketing interests to denigrate the opinions of those who are skeptical about this process, when it's presented without any objective evidence that it works?

Or are you just willing to write off the skeptical side of the market?

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## Bob Laughlin

> Those who don't build instruments are your potential customers. Does it serve your marketing interests to denigrate the opinions of those who are skeptical about this process, when it's presented without any objective evidence that it works?
> 
> Or are you just willing to write off the skeptical side of the market?


despite big joes euphoria for the tonerite, i for one remain skeptical, based on my limited personal experience - there are evangelicals in all fields and it always seems to revolve around money - in this case an (overly?) expensive product with dubious claims

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## Michael Lewis

Well, I see what you mean, Rick.  

Foldedpath, don't jump to the assumption we are denigrating anyone, that was not intended.  Rick's statement was made from the perspective of a seasoned luthier that has witnessed many instruments changing as they open up.  He knows from practical experience that it happens, as do I, and apparently some folks don't know that it happens.   Neither Rick, Joe, nor I have any financial interest in this, nothing to gain, just reporting what we know to be true.  

There was an interesting bit on NPR the other day about how people react regarding opinions they hold.   Apparently when they are confronted with evidence to the contrary they dig in deeper to their preconceived convictions.  It is human nature.

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## Chuck Naill

> Foldedpath, don't jump to the assumption we are denigrating anyone, that was not intended.  Rick's statement was made from the perspective of a seasoned luthier that has witnessed many instruments changing as they open up.  He knows from practical experience that it happens, as do I, and apparently some folks don't know that it happens.


I learned from the thread that I initiated that a definition for what others mean by the concept of "opening up" is not universal. In other words what a seasoned luthier  might call "opening up"  would not be the same as a seasoned player. Players know what they want and desire from an instrument. 

To suggest to the market for mandolins that it needs to play an instrument and allow it to open up is simply not acceptable. To suggest that we need to spend another $150 for a machine is not acceptable. If a  builder is truly seasoned they should be able to produce a product with good tone, one that projects, is effortless to play. Those seasoned builders would not need to rely on a dubious and subjective concepts to pacify the seasoned player. In reality, the seasoned player is not going to buy into these concepts and devices. They will buy what they think provides them with the value they need at the point of purchase. 

I recently obtained an A5 mandolin from a builder with 55 years of experience. I was there during the building process and played the instrument when it was strung up the first time. Has it changed? Sure it has, but I would not consider that it opened up. The strings were new and the sound now is less of that new string metallic tone. I have also grown accustomed to the instrument and what tones it produces according to where it is played. What has not changed is that I do not need to pick hard to get the volume. It has the same pleasing mellow tone I prefer since I began playing it a couple of months back. 

Lets say that the day I first picked it up I had to pick hard to get it to respond. Lets say the sound was all internal, with little coming forth.  I would have never taken possession of the instrument. There are simply too many options to need to settle on something that does not work and requires one to wait on something that might happen according to what a seasoned builder or a dealer thinks is a positive development.

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## Mike Snyder

Nonbeliever. OK, Chuck. I think we get that. There are professional musicians who feel otherwise. And the luthiers that you have denigrated are professional also. Seems a little mean spirited to start a thread about questions, when there is no room for any opinion but yours in a reasonable discussion. I don't own one, don't need one. I respect the opinions of some of the folks who have evaluated the device and find it useful. Their opinions, as well as yours, are a legitimate part of the discourse. What you find unacceptable, fine, go for it. I reserve my right to disagree, and I'll do so in a friendly manner. Mean people suck.
Had to edit, Chuck. I've enjoyed your tunes, thoughtful posts and humor for a long time. I do not post to troll. I just feel that you perhaps feel that somehow folks aren't entitled to believe for themselves.
Keep sending in those old-timey recordings, I look foreward to them.

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## Big Joe

Hey Chuck...you are not that far from my shop.  I'd be happy to lend you one for a week.  I have no stake in this experiment one way or the other.  I just made a promise to test it and publish my response to the test.  I get no payment and I do not stock this product and have no way to profit from this product.  My test was the result of a request and a promise.  Other than that I really have no stake in whether one believes, uses, or wants the product.

Might we sell it at some time?  Maybe.  However, it is not at the top of my list on product that I need to carry.  Not because it is not a good product, but because our retail portion is small and we can only carry a limited amount of product.  Some are critical for both the retail and our shop...things like strings.  Is it a good product?  Yes.  Does that profit me in any way?  Nope.  However, my offer for you to test it is open.  If you like it great, if not great.  However it is always easier to condemn something you have not tried.  I know that for fact because that is how I was only a few weeks ago.

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## Big Joe

Well, we put the tone rite (mandolin) on a Ratliff oval hole A model.  It is a used mandolin, and after 24 hours the results are just as dynamic as they were on the other mandolins with the results becoming pretty predictable.  I won't go into a long description, since the results are very comparable as my earlier posts.

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## mandotrout777

I had this conversation with my five-year-old daughter recently:  

5-year-old:  I don't like asparagus
Dad:  Have you ever tried it?
5-year-old:  No
Dad:  How do you know you don't like it?
5-year-old:  I don't know, I just don't like it.

I've seen offers on this thread for a "traveling tonerite", and the loan of tonerites.  I really wish the skeptics would try one out, then if you think it doesn't do what it says at least you can point to your own experience.  Otherwise, well, maybe you just don't like asparagus.

And if you do hear a difference, well... you can join the ranks of us delusional rubes.

FWIW, I've tried the tonerite and experienced results similar to Big Joe's.

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## SincereCorgi

> I had this conversation with my five-year-old daughter recently:  
> 
> 5-year-old:  I don't like asparagus
> Dad:  Have you ever tried it?
> 5-year-old:  No
> Dad:  How do you know you don't like it?
> 5-year-old:  I don't know, I just don't like it.
> 
> I've seen offers on this thread for a "traveling tonerite", and the loan of tonerites.  I really wish the skeptics would try one out, then if you think it doesn't do what it says at least you can point to your own experience.  Otherwise, well, maybe you just don't like asparagus.
> ...


The other side of that coin is a conversation like: "Wearing this zinc bracelet made my cold go away faster!" "Really? How do you know?" "I feel better now. I know a lot of people who like them- their colds went away faster, too." "Has anybody done any research on this?" "Yeah, there's ongoing research. For instance, there was a paper in Swiss Homeopathy Society Post-Gazette."

I'm not trying to come off as a 'hater'  I'm not such a fool as to discount everything I haven't tried personally  but the culture of musical instruments is full of voodoo thinking (never take all the strings off a guitar at once, keep this rattlesnake tail in the guitar body, etc) that I think desire for measurable evidence is a healthy thing.

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## Paul Hostetter

> I really wish the skeptics would try one out, then if you think it doesn't do what it says at least you can point to your own experience. Otherwise, well, maybe you just don't like asparagus.


I love asparagus, especially grilled. I had the loan of a Toneright for several weeks and ran it on several guitars and mandolins, new and old. I didn't think it did anything that a simple bit of real playing wouldn't do just as well. Better than doing nothing, certainly, but undramatic. 

I also know instruments open up, and resent skeptics who relentlessly reframe the dialogue and twist the statements of others to insist that their singular position trumps anyone else's point of view. It's tedious, unconstructive, and often insulting. If they don't buy it—so what? Go find something else to do, or someone else's conversation to take over.

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## MikeEdgerton

My biggest problem with devices like this is that some new player will read a thread like this and make the assumption that the device will so greatly improve his or her entry level mandolin that they just rush out and buy it. Paul makes a valid point.

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## mandotrout777

> The other side of that coin is a conversation like: "Wearing this zinc bracelet made my cold go away faster!" "Really? How do you know?" "I feel better now. I know a lot of people who like them- their colds went away faster, too." "Has anybody done any research on this?" "Yeah, there's ongoing research. For instance, there was a paper in Swiss Homeopathy Society Post-Gazette."


In my opinion there is no difference here, despite the apparent ridiculousness of the claim.  Get a cold, put the bracelet on, get back to me.  Or get a bunch of people and do the scientifically-valid-double-blind-whatever, and get back to me.  The point is to try the product or set up an experiment, but make an evaluation based on something other than, "I don't know, I'm skeptical".  Skepticism is healthy if it leads to an active search for the truth.  Otherwise, after a while it's just negativity.

Paul tried the tonerite and stated his impressions.  They are just as valid to me as Big Joe's, or anybody elses as long as they actually tried it.  There are people out there who have tried it and not heard any effect.  There are people who claim it's made their instrument sound worse.  It's all good information to have.

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## EdSherry

I wanted to respond to two points Chuck N. made:

(1) 'To suggest to the market for mandolins that it needs to play an instrument and allow it to open up is simply not acceptable. To suggest that we need to spend another $150 for a machine is not acceptable."

"Not acceptable" to whom?  I own a lot of high-end instruments, most of which I've bought used.  It's perfectly "acceptable" to me to buy a $150 gadget that, in my experience, leads to a significant degree of "opening up" when used for a couple of days or a week.  I've already used it on roughly 20 instruments from my collection, and I continue to treat more.  If I end up using it on (say) 50 instruments, that works out to $3 an instrument (plus the cost of the electricity!), less than the price of a new set of strings.

Do I "need" to spend $150 for a Tonerite?  No, but that doesn't strike me as the relevant question -- I certainly don't "need" to buy (or have bought) all of the instruments that I have acquired.  It's a hobby for me, not a life-or-death matter of "needs."  

(2)  "In reality, the seasoned player is not going to buy into these concepts and devices. They will buy what they think provides them with the value they need at the point of purchase."

Again, I beg to differ.  I like to think I'm a "seasoned player" -- I've been playing semi-professionally since 1968.  I for one "buy into" the Tonerite, and a lot of folks whose "ears" I respect do too.  I think that the Tonerite "provides [me] with the value [I want] at the point of purchase" -- albeit not at the "point of purchase" of the instrument itself, but at the "point of purchase" of the Tonerite which I use on the instrument to enhance its sound.

I would agree with Paul H that "playing in" an instrument in the usual way [what Paul calls "real playing"] can probably achieve all that the Tonerite achieves, though (as Big Joe says) probably not as quickly.  But I have too many instruments and too little time to play them all as much as I'd like to.  I can slap a Tonerite on a guitar or mandolin and leave it on, doing its thing 24 hours a day for a week, including when I'm at work or sleeping.  I only wish I had that much time to play!

I fully agree that a Tonerite can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  And I would fully agree that it doesn't make sense to buy a new instrument that you're not satisfied with on the premise that a Tonerite treatment might somehow turn an unacceptable instrument into an acceptable one.   But that doesn't strike me as the relevant criteria for evaluating the Tonerite.

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## Kerry Krishna

For Rick, there are now dozens of Luthiers that now own multiple Tonerites. One I know says that it does more in two weeks than a player can do in two years.  He also says he needs every break he can get because there are so many like him building high end guitars. One of the interesting things that happened a few dozen times over on the Collings Forum Tonerite  thread was this: Those who did not believe that it work, just did not WANT to believe it. All who have tried it agree, it does good, just a matter of how much. Several plywood guitars also have been done with good results. Is there no one on this Forum that's going to send their Toneright out on an America wide tour? C'mon folks, someone should step up to the plate! Again, what is $150 bucks between friends? 


fory


6 months

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## Rick Turner

I'm not sending mine anywhere else; I'm using it...

I can't sit around and play my guitars or ukes or mandos 8 hours a day, but the Toneright can, and then some by a factor of three.   Can you play your favorite instrument 24 hours a day?

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## Cheryl Watson

I very much like starting a gig/practice session with an instrument that sounds and feels like I have been playing it for hours and the Tonerite does that for me.  I have several instruments and definitely cannot play them all every day, just as Rick T. commented.

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## Rick Turner

On this and other forums where various devices that are intended to "open up" or "play in" instruments without much human intervention are discussen, and what I've seen is that among some people...many so... there is an almost (or literal) MORAL aversion to the concept.  It's akin to those indigenous people who believe that if you take a photo of them, you remove a part of their soul.  It's an aversion to the very concept that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this process can "improve"...or "change" the response of a wooden acoustic instrument.

It's close to the whole idea of "feeding the wood" when oiling a fingerboard.  It's a totally emotional and utterly non-intellectual approach to attempting to understand wood, craft, and instruments.  It's on the level of religious belief vs. science, and if someone (as is here) comes out of the chute as an anti-believer (as opposed to being an agnostic re. this belief), then there's no way in hell that any evidence will prevail.  

Chuck simply does not believe in believing that the ToneRite...or any other artificial device...will change, for better or worse, the response characteristics of an instrument.  Ergo, he will not hear any changes OR he will attribute any such perceived changes to some other effect like string aging or humidity changes or beer consumption level.  

I see this syndrome all over the Internet..."You can't prove it to me, and I dare you to!"

It's no win...

It's lose/lose

It's going up against committed faith.

Try Spain, 1495, Inquisition.   Would you dare?

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## foldedpath

> Foldedpath, don't jump to the assumption we are denigrating anyone, that was not intended.  Rick's statement was made from the perspective of a seasoned luthier that has witnessed many instruments changing as they open up.  He knows from practical experience that it happens, as do I, and apparently some folks don't know that it happens.


Okay, to begin with... I don't think anyone in this conversation is doubting that instruments can change drastically in the first days or weeks after they're first assembled. That's a red herring, when most users of the Tonerite will be applying it many months or years after the instrument leaves the shop.

My Significant Other bought a custom-order violin from a local luthier in our town last summer. She was able to pick out the wood blanks, and consult on design. She took delivery very early in that process... almost before the varnish was dry. Customer excitement rules, when you're just a 10 minute drive away from the shop.  :Wink:  The luthier (a good friend of ours, we jam together) was concerned that she had picked it up too early. In the end, it didn't matter. A great instrument is a great instrument. 

A year later, she wouldn't part with that fiddle for the world. And honestly... I can't tell whether any improvement I hear in that fine fiddle is the result of "opening up" or just my S.O. improving as a musician. It's just a great-sounding fiddle. In no part of that transaction, was there any discussion of applying a mechanical gadget to improve the work of the luthier over time, after delivery. Not for that kind of money! 




> Neither Rick, Joe, nor I have any financial interest in this, nothing to gain, just reporting what we know to be true.


I hate to point out the obvious... but while you may not hold shares in the Tonerite company, you, Rick and Joe are vendors of a product aimed at mandolin players. You and Rick make instruments, Joe does repairs and sells instruments. 

I'm just a musician who _buys_ instruments from people like you, and who has instruments repaired by people like Joe. We're on different sides of that commercial transaction fence. I think that means "reporting about what we know to be true" has different consequences, and different responsibilities, than just hearing what an end-user is experiencing with a product. 




> There was an interesting bit on NPR the other day about how people react regarding opinions they hold.   Apparently when they are confronted with evidence to the contrary they dig in deeper to their preconceived convictions.  It is human nature.


Totally agree with that. And we have a tool to help us dig out of that hole... it's called the scientific method, with careful experiments designed to eliminate observer bias, and allow repeatable results by third parties.

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## EdSherry

Re foldedpath's comments that the "scientific method" involves "careful experiments designed to eliminate observer bias":

I would fully agree that, IF setting up such an experiment was something that could readily be done, it would be worth doing.

IMHO, the complication arises when one tries to figure out how to conduct such an experiment, given the difficulties in evaluating such (subjective) factors as tone, timbre, balance, etc.   

In theory, I both understand and appreciate the suggestions of those who suggest that doing such an "scientific" experiment should be feasible.  However, I question both the feasibility of such a test [given the difficulty of specifying in advance what one seeks to determine and how it will be evaluated] and the likely response (by skeptics) of the proper interpretation of any such experimental test.  

Comparing waveforms is not likely to persuade the skeptics, absent some "scientific" metric for performing such comparisons.

We have numerous reports by disinterested observers about their (admittedly subjective) reactions to Tonerite testing.  The proposition that some of those reporting their (subjective) assessments are "on different sides of [the] commercial transaction fence" from end-users does not apply to others (such as myself) who are consumers, not vendors, and who have reported their own evaluations.

As for the "preconceived notions" issue, Big Joe's reporting seems to me strong evidence that empirical testing (however 'subjective' it might appear) can dislodge "preconceived notions".

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## Michael Lewis

Foldedpath, you don't know me, so why should you trust my word?  I get it.  You really don't know me.

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## Chuck Naill

> As for the "preconceived notions" issue, Big Joe's reporting seems to me strong evidence that empirical testing (however 'subjective' it might appear) can dislodge "preconceived notions".


All that Big Joe's experiments have proven is that for him something changed and he liked the change. He also agrees that playing the instrument can accomplish the same results. He also allowed for the possibility that playing will produce better results than a constant tone coming from a machine. A fiddle maker friend of mine hooked up a bow to a motor than bows all the strings back and forth. If you could devise a machine that picked or plucked the strings, that would seem superior to me. At least the mandolin is being "played". 

Here is what I think it a fact, some people/players/luthiers are not satisfied with what their mandolin, etc sounds like. In other words they have a dissatisfaction that needs to be addressed. The Tone Rite appears to address this need for them. 

Others, like me, do not experience this dissatisfaction. We buy products that perform from the start. Perhaps we have a better ear and intuitively know how to choose a good product. Either that or I am the luckiest person in the world ( I actually don't believe in luck) because I have no instrument that needs to be played regularly to sound good. I pull them from the case and there they are.

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## Geoff B

> Others, like me, do not experience this dissatisfaction. We buy products that perform from the start. Perhaps we have a better ear and intuitively know how to choose a good product. Either that or I am the luckiest person in the world ( I actually don't believe in luck) because I have no instrument that needs to be played regularly to sound good. I pull them from the case and there they are.


You are going pretty far, I think, to suggest as you do, that Rick, Michael, Joe and others don't have as good an ear as you, and don't know what a good product is in the way that you intuitively do.  Sure, everyone knows what they like, and it's not all the same.  Your argument lost a lot of credibility with me when you wrote that, though I've entertained your ideas in my head...

re: the plucking vs. vibrating machine.  What does plucking the string produce?  vibrations.... hmmmm....

If changing the oil in your car (which you love, and think performs well) could make it perform better, would you?  Would you deride folks who change their oil because their car "should" perform well from the beginning, and not need work here and there? You make pretty big assumptions that people get the tonerite because they are dissatisfied with their instruments.  I love my instruments but I'd get one just to help them develop their voice when I can't play it.  That's just good instrument ownership and not an attempt to cure some dissatisfaction...

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## Willie Poole

Come on, If you are satisfied with the way your mandolin sounds then don`t install a tonerite device, if you would like to see if there is some better sound that can be had, then try a tonerite...It`s just that simple....Big Joe is just reporting what he has seen/heard when using the device...Don`t shoot the messenger......Willie

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## Big Joe

I don't understand what being vendors of mandolin related items has to do with the discussion.  None of us sell the product and we don't have anything to gain by that.  Our reports our just that...our reports.  My results are not just what I hear either.  It is the report of several people who have very excellent ears and know what they hear.  I am just the voice for them.  Whether you accept my reports as "science" or just personal subjective comments make no difference to me.  I don't need to convince anyone to try the product.  I have nothing to gain if you do..and nothing to lose if you don't.  I really could care less if anyone tries or not.  I gave my word to someone to test it and post the results...good or bad.  That is what I have done.  It has been a good lesson for me as well.  Yes, I have very well developed ears and can hear even minor nuances in tone and volume on instruments.  That is what I do for a living.  Still, the fact the I, or Michael, or Rick are luthiers has nothing to do with the product itself or our observations.  Actually, the number of very highly skilled luthiers on this forum that have posted very favorably about this product should be a wake up call to each of us.  Don't believe...don't accept if you wish, but certainly don't denigrate the character or viewpoint of these incredibly skilled men.  They deserve much more than that.  They offer their advice and wisdom and knowledge with nothing to gain for themselves.  If those observations do not deserve at least an open ear, then I fear minds were closed before the subject began.

As for me, you can make jest of my results all you want.  That does not matter to me.  I do not like to see men like Michael or Rick or Paul be made light of.  They certainly have the credentials to have their voice heard.  You don't have to agree.  You don't even have to like what they say, but at least give them the honor and courtesy to say it.  They afford you that opportunity.  

For me, the product has proven itself in the best scientific format it can.  I tried it and it worked.  It did what it said it would do.  It is just what it says it is and that is enough.  Fortunately, it becomes a pretty minor cost when shared across the number of instruments I may use it on.  I don't know for sure what they cost, and it does not matter to me.  Each person has to determine for themselves whether it is a valid investment.  They have done the same with the tone gard, arm rests, nitro or varnish finishes, highly buffed, satin, or distressed finishes, x bracing vs tone bars vs no bracing, oval hole vs f hole, a model vs f model.  There are many things one can put money on to achieve the ultimate goal of tone or playability for them.

I have seen just about every material under the earth, on the earth, and manmade become picks.  Some are cheap...a few cents each.  Many were free.  Many were very expensive.  Still, I'll bet most who are on this forum has tried numerous picks to find the one that sounds best to them.  I have played with matchbook covers, quarters, pieces of stone and metal, different bone and hoof materials, many plastics, tortoise, fake tortoise, and even blue chip whatever they ares.  I can guarantee you I've spent more on picks over the last 45 years than one could spend on a tone rite.  That does not make the picks a bad investment nor does it mean I don't have a good enough ear to hear the difference.  If I did not, I could have stayed with the match book cover.  They were free...of course, in those days everyone carried matches.  A bit more difficult today.

My point is this.  Everyone will make a decision for themselves whether to invest in this product.  The luthiers here have no stake in what you do or don't do.  They merely report what they know...by many years experience and testing of product.  You can accept that or reject it.  That is a personal choice.  However, it is not necessary to make light of what they say just because it goes against your personal held belief or concept.  At least they had the scientific willingness to try the product.  If you want to put it down, try it and see for yourself.  If it does not do what it says, then blast it.  Until then it is kind of like spitting in the wind.  It just comes back on you.  Or, don't try it and continue to complain about the product.  Who really cares.  Call for more scientific testing.  Don't ask the company to provide their research but blast the product without having even the least knowledge of it or the people behind it.  I was truly an agnostic concerning the product until I tried it.  I have reported exactly what the results were in each case and on each day.  I am continuing to use it but not reporting any further unless I find anything to contradict what I've already reported.  I think the results are pretty much able to be predicted after seeing it on a number of instruments all with the same results.  Thank you, and this is my opinion and I'll stick by it  :Smile:  .

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## fscotte

The non-believers should just make their own device and call it 'ToneRong - Guaranteed not to improve your tone!'  

That way they don't have to be so jealous of ToneRite.   :Cool:

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## Rick Turner

I have seen the scientific evidence of change happening in instruments from "artificial" vibration, that being the no longer available "TimbreTech" process that used an industrial shaker table driven by a 5,000 watt amplifier.   The TimbreTech folks did constant monitoring of various places on the instruments being vibrated using accelerometers connected into a recording computer program.  The before and after frequency response plots were different, end of story.   Therefore I have no problem accepting the empirical evidence of people...many people...hearing changes from the use of the ToneRite...and those people happen to include myself.   

This has nothing to do with trying to make "silk purses out of sow's ears"...this isn't about passing off ###### instruments as great as Chuck seems to imply.   It's just about trying to compress the effect of years of playing into days or months.  Of course, I also know that there are curmudgeons who claim that instruments do not change over time, but there's nothing any of us are going to be able to do about them.

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## bratsche

Since so many players think a new instrument needs to "open up" via weeks/months/years of playing, shouldn't dealers who've used a Tonerite on a new instrument make voluntary full disclosure to the customer that it's "already been done"?

bratsche  :Popcorn:

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## George R. Lane

I have read through thread with great interest. I have listened to both sides from the luthiers to the naysayers, who I believe have a slanted view from the begining. I truly appreciate Big Joe's test and unbiased comments. I don't have a great ear for tonal qualities as some of you, but I know what I want to hear from my instruments. I likewise have bought several types of picks from Fenders to Blue Chip, the BC's are worth their cost. And since I am the final judge in this matter I can do whatever I want. I have been on the fence about getting one of these and now that I have my new Weber custom Yellowstone, I will be purchasing one. Is it alot of money? Probably, but if it will make my mando sound even better than it does it will be worth it. Mr. Naill, I think you have made your point several times in this thread, why continue down this same road. Say your piece and move on.

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## SincereCorgi

> In theory, I both understand and appreciate the suggestions of those who suggest that doing such an "scientific" experiment should be feasible.  However, I question both the feasibility of such a test [given the difficulty of specifying in advance what one seeks to determine and how it will be evaluated] and the likely response (by skeptics) of the proper interpretation of any such experimental test.  
> 
> Comparing waveforms is not likely to persuade the skeptics, absent some "scientific" metric for performing such comparisons...


Somebody in another thread posted A/B recordings of a Blue Chip pick and a tortoise one, and the differences were audible and interesting. Before-and-afters with the ToneRite wouldn't have to be any fancier than that to convert or at least shut up the majority of 'skeptics'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtDXnTGnNc8

This is the sort of thing I was thinking of. (Having said that, the difference on this before-and-after is so subtle that it is hard for me to tell if anything is happening. It's a great-sounding guitar at the end, but it was a great-sounding guitar at the beginning. There's a hint of a  'richer' quality, but he's playing much faster  and consequently harder, probably  and that's going to create a different sound profile in itself.)

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## John Gass

I can agree with the results of the ToneRite on 2 levels. One is that I use it personally on my The Loar LM700 which is fantastic to start with but the response and overall tone has much more depth to it after using it. I also played Joe's F5 he is testing it on before and after and the results are just astounding.

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## EdSherry

Chuck -- if you're satisfied with your instruments and the way they sound, great!  

But I regularly ask myself:  could I make this particular instrument sound better if I did something to it?  [E.g., using a different pick, different set of strings, etc.]  IMHO, it's not a matter of being "dissatisfied" with what I have, as trying to see if I can get something better out of what I have.  

(Over the years, I've bought a number of instruments that I was "dissatisfied" with.  This rarely happens when I buy in person, as I'll pass if I don't like the instrument, but it happens occasionally when I buy mail order or on eB*y or [on occasion] through the Cafe classifieds.  When I wasn't able to figure out a way to fix the problems, I've ended up selling a number of them.)  

I don't know anyone who disputes the proposition that matching the pick / strings to the instrument can improve the sound.  

When I get a new (to me) instrument, I'll often experiment with different string gauges (light, medium, heavy) and compositions (e.g., Phosphor Bronze vs. 80/20 brass  vs. monel vs. silk-and-steel) before I settle on the string set that seems to me to be the best "fit" for the instrument and the music I intend to play on it,  a process that's complicated by the fact that new strings sound different from played-in strings.  That process can run into non-trivial money (five or six sets of strings at $4-$6 a set), and I don't know of any "scientific" way to evaluate the testing process.   But I don't know anyone who doubts that running such a test is worthwhile.

IMHO, if I can eke a 5% improvement in sound out of a $3000 instrument, that's worth $150.  

I admit it's very difficult to determine whether a sonic improvement is "5%" or "1%" or "10%," but as I see it, that's where subjective assessments come in.  After all, how DO you determine whether it's worth paying an extra $100 (or $1000) for mandolin X vs. mandolin Y?  By "scientific experiments"?  I strongly doubt it ...  

To my mind, treating an instrument with a Tonerite is in many ways analogous to trying different string sets to see whether a change can improve things.   It may or may not make a difference.  I personally think it does, based on my (admittedly subjective) assessments (from treating some 20+ instruments), and a lot of folks whose "ears" I trust do too.  If it doesn't work for you on a particular instrument, that's understandable, but not a reason to question the results reported by others that, in their opinion, it DID make a difference on the instruments they tested.  

IMHO, the cost of such a treatment (especially when the up-front cost of buying the unit is amortized across a number of instruments) is very small compared to the cost of trying different string sets.  

Chuck, I understand that you deal in Horner mandolins.  One of the instruments I treated with the Tonerite was a used Horner A-5 that I bought from a Cafe classified.  I thought the instrument was a fine instrument when I bought it, and I played it for a couple of years on stage and in the studio before I got a Tonerite and used it on the instrument.  I personally think it sounds better after the Tonerite treatment than it did before.   The fact that I was not "dissatisfied" with it, either when I bought it or when I subsequently decided to treat it with a Tonerite, does not undercut the fact that (in my admittedly subjective opinion) the treatment improved both the instrument's tone /timbre and its volume  -- a belief shared by a number of my musical friends who heard the "before-and-after" results.

Chuck also suggests:  "If you could devise a machine that picked or plucked the strings, that would seem superior to me. At least the mandolin is being 'played'."  I recall a couple of threads here on the Cafe about people who have made such mechanical-strummer devices.   I understand that Roger Siminoff uses such a device (along with two others) when he performs his "de-damping" services.  

http://www.siminoff.net/pages/simino...dedamping.html

So what?  The idea that some sort of mechanical strummer [whether or not coupled with other approaches] might be seen as "superior" to a Tonerite has nothing to do with the question whether the Tonerite does what it claims to do.  I have a lot of respect for Roger Siminoff (I've known him for over 30 years), but he charges $125 per instrument for his "de-damping" service.  That's a LOT of money compared to the cost of a Tonerite treatment (as I previously indicated, I anticipate using my Tonerite to treat 50+ instruments, which amounts to a cost of less than $3 per instrument, plus the minor cost of the electricity used).  

Personally, I happen to like the fact that the Tonerite does its thing without strumming the strings, as it makes it easier for me to simply leave it on for 24 hours a day.  If I used a mechanical strummer, the sound would probably drive me up the wall in short order.  If Chuck's suggestion is that a mechanical strummer would be "superior" to a Tonerite, the obvious solution would be to test the two head-to-head against one another, not to disparage the Tonerite.  I don't understand him to be suggesting that he intends to perform such a test.

----------


## George R. Lane

Here is another question. From what I have heard the mandolin should be in its' case, laying horizontal to allow the instrument to vibrate. If so, wouldn't a tonegard help the back to vibrate more easily than without one? Any thoughts.

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## Amandalyn

> Here is another question. From what I have heard the mandolin should be in its' case, laying horizontal to allow the instrument to vibrate. If so, wouldn't a tonegard help the back to vibrate more easily than without one? Any thoughts.


To the contrary, the designers of Tonerite do not recommend leaving it on in a case, as the case could shut down and damage the instrument . I have found it works well on a stand, or on a couch, chair, leaning against an arm, which allows the back to vibrate freely. Laying the instrument on a bed also works well.

BTW my offer for the 'Traveling Tonerite' stands. We have one signed up.... Need a few more,
Teri

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## EdSherry

Re "mandomonium"'s question:  Seems to me you're confusing the Tonerite with a Tonegard.  Different beasts entirely.  

Or are you proposing using the Tonerite on a Tonegard-equipped mandolin that's lying on its back to make sure that the back of the instrument is allowed to vibrate freely?  That's what I do when I use the Tonerite on another mando.  And I have a dreadnaught-sized Tonegard that I use when I treat guitars with the Tonerite.  For other instruments, I rest the instrument on a yoga-mat-type pad.  

I'm sure that Teri's suggestion of using the Tonerite on an instrument resting in a stand would achieve the same result.  "Couch" and "bed," I'm not so sure.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Re "mandomonium"'s question:  Seems to me you're confusing the Tonerite with a Tonegard.  Different beasts entirely.


I don't think he is. I think he asking if it would be better to have the tonegard on while using the tonerite as it would allow the back to vibrate without being damped.

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## George R. Lane

Mike,
Thank You.
That was my question.

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## EdSherry

When feasible, I generally use a Tonegard when I treat a mandolin or guitar with a Tonerite.  (Sometimes I can't -- e.g., I recently treated a Vega cylinderback, a Lyon & Healy A model, a Weissenborn-style slide guitar, and a Taylor/Klein AB-2 acoustic bass guitar, for none of which do I have a Tonegard that fits.)  

Seems to me to be a good idea, but I haven't done a "with vs. without" comparison.

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## Chuck Naill

> Chuck, I understand that you deal in Horner mandolins.  One of the instruments I treated with the Tonerite was a used Horner A-5 that I bought from a Cafe classified.  I thought the instrument was a fine instrument when I bought it, and I played it for a couple of years on stage and in the studio before I got a Tonerite and used it on the instrument.  I personally think it sounds better after the Tonerite treatment than it did before.   The fact that I was not "dissatisfied" with it, either when I bought it or when I subsequently decided to treat it with a Tonerite, does not undercut the fact that (in my admittedly subjective opinion) the treatment improved both the instrument's tone /timbre and its volume  -- a belief shared by a number of my musical friends who heard the "before-and-after" results.


Ed,

I don't deal in the sense that I make anything from the sale of Mr. Horner's instruments, but I attempt to help him in that I built a web site and maintain it for him since he does not have internet capabilities. I also provide a shipping service for him at no charge to him or the consumer. 

What is true about Mr. Horner's violins or mandolins is true about every builder, each product is different. I have played dozens of Horner F5's. Some  appealed to me and some did not. The one's that I have are the ones I preferred. This is why I we always suggest that someone drop by the shop if they can. 

I would never tell you that you did not improve the sound of your Horner or any of your many instruments. That would be rude and disrespectful. The way I would respond is to say that your experience is not necessarily transferrable to another consumer. If I had access today to a Tone Rite, I would refuse to use it because I do not want to change anything about the tone and playability of the instruments I use. Once I get an instrument set up and where I like it, I leave it alone. 

If I had an instrument that needed a tweak, I would take it to someone who I use the set instruments up. With my fiddles its a fellow that has improved the tone and playability of every fiddle I own. He does this by fitting the sound post and positioning it properly. With a mandolin, I have noticed the improvement by using a Cumberland Acoustic bridge to replace the one that came with my Eastman. With the Martin, it has been significantly modified structurally by John Arnold. The fiddle set up costs $45, the CA bridge costs, $45 and the modifications to the Martin was under $400. I feel that this is better money spent than a Tone Rite, but this is just my preference and not meant to just be negative about a product. 

Regards, 

chuck

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## Big Joe

I hang the instruments on a wall hanger when I use the tone rite.  It can vibrate freely and still be secure.  I would not do it in the case for several reasons, amongst them being the space it takes to leave a case sit open for that period of time as well as the possibility of the case shutting and causing damage and the decrease in vibration of the wood.  Hanging works well for us.

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## Kevin K

I received my tone rite in Wed.  So after use all night Wed night, Thursday, then removed Friday morning for a festival trip,  I was very impressed with the difference in the mandolin all weekend.  Great sound each time I picked up the mandolin from the case, no more sleep time and wake up period, more tone depth and volume than ever before.

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## Amandalyn

> I could entertain the idea of a "Traveling Tonerite" that I will donate for the process. We must come up with some rules and guidelines that each participant will agree to. My first suggestions would be to limit it to 6 people, who use it for no longer than one week, and pass it to the next person, paying the shipping costs. At the end it is returned to me. If it is "lost" somewhere along the line, we need an agreement, something like each participant agrees to pay a percentage for the cost. (this could be done upfront- $25. a person with a refund when it is successfully passed to the next guy) Something like this was done awhile back with a large assortment of picks that traveled around the country.


Ok we have 2 inboard for the "Traveling Tonerite" (round one)
1.jswag
2. JR
3.
4.
5.

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## Amandalyn

> Ok we have 3 inboard for the "Traveling Tonerite" (round one)
> 1.jswag
> 2. JR
> 3. Pickloser
> 4.
> 5.


we have 3 onboard, I'm going to go ahead and get it started with a minimum of 4- more can be added later. So- one more needed!
Chuck???

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## Rick Turner

Chuck, I've got to say, you crack me up!  You're hilarious!

"If I had access today to a Tone Rite, I would refuse to use it because I do not want to change anything about the tone and playability of the instruments I use. Once I get an instrument set up and where I like it, I leave it alone. "

I get it...set the instrument up perfectly...and then don't play it!    Because playing it will surely change the setup as frets wear, nut and bridge slots wear, and that dreadful vibration from playing it will slowly help change the character of the tone of the instrument...

Boy, I never thought of not playing an instrument as being the best thing for it...  But that's brilliant!

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## SternART

Touche!

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## mtucker

heck, i was going to say ... and maybe this is not what Chuck really meant, i have 2 that are <1yo and could use some tuning.

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## bratsche

> we have 3 onboard, I'm going to go ahead and get it started with a minimum of 4- more can be added later. So- one more needed!
> Chuck???


I'll bite if Chuck won't.  I have a Big Muddy mandola with probably fewer than 50 playing hours on it...  :Smile:  

bratsche

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## Amandalyn

> I'll bite if Chuck won't.  I have a Big Muddy mandola with probably fewer than 50 playing hours on it...  
> 
> bratsche


Ok Bratsche, you are #4, so we can get started. I'm not sure about the fit on your mandola, but you can try it. Please PM me for details.

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## Chuck Naill

> Chuck, I've got to say, you crack me up!  You're hilarious!
> 
> "If I had access today to a Tone Rite, I would refuse to use it because I do not want to change anything about the tone and playability of the instruments I use. Once I get an instrument set up and where I like it, I leave it alone. "
> 
> I get it...set the instrument up perfectly...and then don't play it!    Because playing it will surely change the setup as frets wear, nut and bridge slots wear, and that dreadful vibration from playing it will slowly help change the character of the tone of the instrument...
> 
> Boy, I never thought of not playing an instrument as being the best thing for it...  But that's brilliant!


I never said I did  not play the instrument Rick. In my opinion, playing rather than some artificial vibrations is superior, but to each their own. 

What we are discussing are preferences. We do not have to agree. If you or anyone else wants to spend $150, go for it. My experiences have proven what works for me. YMMV...LOL!!

Peace Bro, 

chuck

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## Chuck Naill

> Ok Bratsche, you are #4, so we can get started. I'm not sure about the fit on your mandola, but you can try it. Please PM me for details.


I just got in from work. Thank you for the generous offer. I will graciously and respectfully pass. Not because I am afraid your device will not work, but more due to how satisfied with my Horner A5. 

Best Regards, 

chuck

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## Rick Turner

A closed mind is like a closed door...  No new light may enter.

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## Michael Lewis

Well,  Rick, it seems the nay sayers just want to say nay, and nothing more.  They make a big noise about how it can't work or some other reason but they won't step up and actually see if it can really do what is said about it.  It has been freely offered for trial, one would think even the most skeptical would at least be curious and try it.  

The comment about the scientific method being able to prove something requires someone to perform the process.  Who is going to do that?  If the makers of the Tonerite do the process there will be those that distrust their results because 'they have an agenda' (a product to sell), so the makers don't need to make that effort.  The nay sayers won't do it because it may prove them wrong, and heaven forbid that anyone should ever have to admit they were wrong!!!  Can't go there.  

 I think Joe Vest made a huge gesture and exposed his open mind and big heart with his contributions here.  He admitted to being skeptical and proceeded with the process, explaining what was done, what happened along the way, and the results.  How much more clear can the process be made?  Apparently not clear enough for some.  I don't think everyone should have a Tonerite, not everyone needs one,  but for those that want the most from their instrument it is a boon.

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## Chuck Naill

> Well,  Rick, it seems the nay sayers just want to say nay, and nothing more.  They make a big noise about how it can't work or some other reason but they won't step up and actually see if it can really do what is said about it.  It has been freely offered for trial, one would think even the most skeptical would at least be curious and try it.


The issue is not about agreeing to use a product. If something works and you are satisfied, why do something? If one is not sick, does one continually seek a physician? Only hypochondriacs do that.  I think that many who purchase such products hoping for improvements do so because they in some way are never able to be satisfied or are looking for something that does not exist. They are hypochondriacs. Others like Ed use the product because they feel that playing time is essential to achieving what they want and while I disagree, it his business not mine. 

While I appreciate Big Joe's activity, it suggests only that he found something positive for himself. This does not translate into an improvement for me or anyone else. I don't think he proved that an Eastman was turned into a Gilchrist by using the Tone Rite. If that is the consensus, I am in the minority. 

Other's have suggested that because they are luthiers, they know something that the rest do not which again means nothing or at least nothing to me since the definition of an open instrument apparently has various connotations. I have play long enough to know what I want to make the music I do. The real issue, as one other mentioned, is about suggesting to someone who has a weak product that by vibrating the instrument, it will be transformed. This has yet to be proven and even the Tone Rite people do not make that claim.

----------


## tburcham

> I received my tone rite in Wed.  So after use all night Wed night, Thursday, then removed Friday morning for a festival trip,  I was very impressed with the difference in the mandolin all weekend.  Great sound each time I picked up the mandolin from the case, no more sleep time and wake up period, more tone depth and volume than ever before.


So Kevin, I take it that you are now in the believer camp with regard to the de-damping process whether through extensive use or mechanical excitation?

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## Kevin K

Tim,
Very much so.
Kevin

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## Amandalyn

The "Traveling Tonerite" experiment now has 6 participants, so I'm closing this round. Thanks to those who responded. A new thread will be started for the users to posts their comments.
Stay tuned....
Teri

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## i-vibe

i tried this product and did not notice an increase in the size of my.....

DOH...WRONG THREAD!!!!

----------


## Kevin K

yikes...

----------


## fscotte

Why can't the doubters just be happy that someone found a device that makes them think their mandolin sounds better?  I can't understand the logic to go on the offensive to disprove the device.  Are you doubters part of some secret organization like The Knights of the Defenders of True Tone or what?

Can any of you doubters offer a reasonable and logical explanation as to why you feel the need to attack the ToneRite?

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> Why can't the doubters just be happy that someone found a device that makes them think their mandolin sounds better?  I can't understand the logic to go on the offensive to disprove the device.  Are you doubters part of some secret organization like The Knights of the Defenders of True Tone or what?
> 
> Can any of you doubters offer a reasonable and logical explanation as to why you feel the need to attack the ToneRite?


This is pretty much a troll, take the time to read the Posting Guidelines.

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## fscotte

> This is pretty much a troll, take the time to read the Posting Guidelines.


Uh.. with all due respect Mike, I am not a troll and neither is my post.  If so, then this entire thread is a troll.  All I've done is bring it down to the "brass tax", which is asking why there's an offensive against a device that some people believe improves the tone of their mandolin.  Maybe I was being a little funny with the "Knights" comment but I seriously haven't seen ONE single statement that explains the disingenuous attitude towards the ToneRite.   Does it cause people to lose their money?   Is ToneRite forcing a "money-grab" on them?  I seriously don't get it.

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## MikeEdgerton

It was a troll and thanks.

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## Jan Ellefsen

I received my Tonerite today, convinced after reading this thread. As described in the manual I placed it as close to the bridge as possible, actually touching the bridge. The thing is that it was actually quite noisy as long as it touched the bridge, but much quieter when I moved it a little so that it was not touching the bridge anymore. My question to the more experienced user is: Should it touch the bridge or not.
Another question: The mandolin Tonerite can easily be placed on my guitar also. Are the frequencies the same on the different models? If so I guess I can use it on all my instruments.

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## buckles

> I received my Tonerite today, convinced after reading this thread. As described in the manual I placed it as close to the bridge as possible, actually touching the bridge. The thing is that it was actually quite noisy as long as it touched the bridge, but much quieter when I moved it a little so that it was not touching the bridge anymore. My question to the more experienced user is: Should it touch the bridge or not.
> Another question: The mandolin Tonerite can easily be placed on my guitar also. Are the frequencies the same on the different models? If so I guess I can use it on all my instruments.



When I had questions like these, I contacted support at tonerite.com.  They answer quickly.  Also, joining the Owner's Forum at that website is a good thing to do.  Ryan Frankel, who seems to answer questions at the Owner's Forum, knows the ins and outs of using this device.

HTH

----------


## Big Joe

I don't know it they will work interchangeably.  They sent me one designed for mandolin and one for guitar.  They were marked differently in the box.  I have not tried switching them.  It may be just the string dividers are the only difference, or it could be they operate on different frequencies.  I have not contacted them with that question, but I guess it could be answered pretty quickly by them.

----------


## George R. Lane

Well,
I just bought mine about 30 minutes ago and it will be on my 10 day old Yellowstone, with an englemann top, quilted maple back, rims neck, for the next 6 days. I am glad that I have my Vintage A to play. This mandolin was already loud to begin with, but a little tight sounding on the mid tones. I am hoping this will work. If not I will put it up in the classifieds. Let you know my impressions on Monday.

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## Big Joe

Hey George...if you need to increase the mids you might increase the speed of the tone rite.  That may give a boost in that spectrum.

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## George R. Lane

Joe,
Thanks. I have it on the maximum setting, as per the instruction book. The instructions say to get a sweeter sound you should lower the setting. I will try this after the 6 day run.

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## EdSherry

Chuck -- I never said that playing-in an instrument was "essential" to achieving an acceptable/desirable result.  I said that, in my experience, doing so (whether via what Paul H calls "real playing" or via a Tonerite treatment) seems to me to result in a sonic improvement.

For "real playing" over time, the obvious difficulty in evaluating any effect is that sonic memory Is fallible over time.  I've had one of my main guitars for 35 years; I simply cannot remember what it used to sound like back when I bought it.  One of the virtues of the Tonerite (IMHO) is that I can hear an effect within a relatively short period of time. 

I think we've all had the experience of playing two [or more] "identical"-model instruments from some manufacturer and concluding that one of them is superior to the other[s].  IMHO, that inherently involves some sort of "subjective" assessment.  But that fact doesn't make the assessments unreliable.

You say:  "I think that many who purchase such products hoping for improvements do so because they in some way are never able to be satisfied or are looking for something that does not exist."  What is your basis for saying that a sonic improvement from using a Tonerite "does not exist"?  I've heard it, Michael L has heard it, Rick T has heard it, my friend Lewis Santer has heard it, Big Joe (initially a skeptic) has heard it.  

As for "never [being] able to be satisfied," I don't know about you, but I'm always on the lookout for ways to improve the sound of my instruments.  9Some of your earlier posts indicate that you're perfectly willing to pay non-trivial $$ for structural changes to your instruments, such as new bridges or new setups.)  Whether that entails trying a different pick, or different strings, or a Tonegard, or different banjo bridges or mandolin bridges or tailpieces or guitar bridgepins, or a different setup, or a Tonerite treatment, I don't see what "satisfaction" has to do with it.  

You may of course contend that any such effect "does not exist," but if you never have run, and apparently never intend to run the experiment on any of your instruments, because you're satisfied with what you have, I'm at a loss to understand what basis you have for saying that the Tonerite cannot and does not have an effect and/or does not add value.  

You say:  "In my opinion, playing rather than some artificial vibrations is superior ..."  Again, what is your basis for this claim?  Have you actually compared the sonic effect of (say) 12 hours of playing an instrument to the effect of 12 hours of Tonerite treatment?  (Not as far as I can see from your posts.)

More significantly, have you compared the effect of (say) a week of Tonerite treatment (24/7) to the effect of a week's [or a month's or a year's] real-world playing, which (in my experience) is likely to be limited to an hour or so a day, IF you're fortunate enough to have that much time to devote to playing?  

You say:  "I don't think [Big Joe] proved that an Eastman was turned into a Gilchrist by using the Tone Rite."  But I don't know anyone who makes such a claim.  Certainly Big Joe did not.  (If you think that's what the Tonerite folks, or anyone on the forum, are claiming, I'd appreciate citations to such claims on this thread or another thread.)  

IMHO, the relevant issue is not whether an $500-$1000 Eastman can be "transformed" into the (sonic equivalent of) a $25K Gilchrist by a Tonerite treatment (which strikes me as a "straw man" argument), but whether a Tonerite treatment on some instrument can result in a discernable improvement in the tone/timbre/volume of that instrument.  

Given that Gilchrists cost $25K or thereabouts, a $150 Tonerite amouns to 6% of the cost of the Gilchrist.  Is it possible that treating a $25K Gilchrist with a $150 Tonerite would add 6% to the sound?  I doubt I'll ever get the chance to run such an experiment, but I've heard what sounds to my ears to be much more than a 6% improvement in sound (admittedly subjectively assessed) on many of the 20+ instruments I've treated.  And, of course, I can amortize the cost of the Tonerite across multiple instruments/treatments.  

You contend: "The real issue, as one other mentioned, is about suggesting to someone who has a weak product that by vibrating the instrument, it will be transformed. This has yet to be proven and even the Tone Rite people do not make that claim."

Two responses:  First, I don't think that this is the "real issue."  I think that the "real issue" is whether the volume/timbre/tone of a given instrument ["weak" or not] will be "improved" [not "transformed"] by a Tonerite treatment, relative to what it was before the treatment [or what it would have been absent the treatment].  I personally think so (on the basis of the 20+ tests I've performed), and lots of others (including people like Big Joe, who started out very skeptical) seem to agree.  

I would fully agree that (a) the method I've used to assess such effects is subjective, (b) the magnitude of any effect varies across different instruments (in my experience, some of the treatments had a much greater effect than others), and (c) any effect is likely to be moderate, not dramatic (what you refer to as a "transformation").    I note that Big Joe seems to believe that the effect can be significant.

Second, I suspect the answer to the "real issue" as you've posed it depends on what you mean both by "weak product" and by "transformed."  My Horner A-5 was not a "weak product" when I bought it or when I treated it using a Tonerite, but I heard an improvement, as did others.  Big Joe reports similar results for a number of instruments ranging from low-end to high-end.  

Asking for a "transformation" seems to me to be setting the bar way too high. Turning an Eastman into (the sonic equivalent of) a Gilchrist?  Not bloody likely, but that is not what anyone (including the Tonerite people) is suggesting.

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## buckles

> ...Given that Gilchrists cost $25K or thereabouts, a $150 Tonerite amouns to 6% of the cost of the Gilchrist. Is it possible that treating a $25K Gilchrist with a $150 Tonerite would add 6% to the sound? I doubt I'll ever get the chance to run such an experiment, but I've heard what sounds to my ears to be much more than a 6% improvement in sound (admittedly subjectively assessed) on many of the instruments I've treated. And, of course, I can amortize the cost of the Tonerite across multiple instruments/treatments....


I think a decimal point slipped.  Using the above numbers, the cost of a ToneRite is about .6%, not 6%, of the cost of a Gil.

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## EdSherry

Buckles -- you're right.  My mistake.  

But that reinforces my point. A 0.6% improvement would be "lost in the noise."  The sonic improvements I've (subjectively) heard on the 20+ instruments I've treated are far greater than 0.6%.

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## Chuck Naill

> You say: "I think that many who purchase such products hoping for improvements do so because they in some way are never able to be satisfied or are looking for something that does not exist." What is your basis for saying that a sonic improvement from using a Tonerite "does not exist"? I've heard it, Michael L has heard it, Rick T has heard it, my friend Lewis Santer has heard it, Big Joe (initially a skeptic) has heard it.


My basis is reading the continual discussion about tone improvement which never enters my mind once the instrument is properly set up. I recognize that a wood object is affected day to day by the humidity and other environs. I know that the strings and pick are also going to have an affect. However, when I use the new Horner A5 prototype, I have the same experience. It is light and responsive. The tone is fat and clear. It sounds the way I want a mandolin to sound. I am not looking for something additional. 

The discussion has centered around someone saying they heard a difference. I am not sure I could relate to a 6 percent improvement. I am not saying that You et al are lying or being less than credible, I am just saying that for me, I would just as soon play the instrument with a good set up. 




> You contend: "The real issue, as one other mentioned, is about suggesting to someone who has a weak product that by vibrating the instrument, it will be transformed. This has yet to be proven and even the Tone Rite people do not make that claim."


This is not just me. Others have also suggested that there is a danger in someone buying the product and expecting a miracle. I have no problem with the Tone Rite ad. They are upfront with the fact that a product with too much wood will not be helped. 




> You say: "In my opinion, playing rather than some artificial vibrations is superior ..." Again, what is your basis for this claim? Have you actually compared the sonic effect of (say) 12 hours of playing an instrument to the effect of 12 hours of Tonerite treatment? (Not as far as I can see from your posts.)


The basis is simply that allowing an instrument to resonate with differing notes and volume seems to me to be superior. I have read that a violin played well sound better than one which has been played poorly. This to is subjective, but it is an appealing idea.




> As for "never [being] able to be satisfied," I don't know about you, but I'm always on the lookout for ways to improve the sound of my instruments. 9Some of your earlier posts indicate that you're perfectly willing to pay non-trivial $$ for structural changes to your instruments, such as new bridges or new setups.) Whether that entails trying a different pick, or different strings, or a Tonegard, or different banjo bridges or mandolin bridges or tailpieces or guitar bridgepins, or a different setup, or a Tonerite treatment, I don't see what "satisfaction" has to do with it.


I used to be on the look out. Like I mentioned in previous posts here, I went through and education about why the instruments I love had the sound I was after. This is why I said that a pre war Martin was the benchmark. Apparently other disagree. What I learned by trial and error was that the bracing, bridge plate, etc. gave the old Martins the tone I prefer. Additionally, it matters little if the product was well played or not, most of them have than tone. For me, it would be a waste of time to try to make a new Martin have the tone of the old ones using a Tone Rite or any other product. I now know that to truly change a product, radical removal of wood is necessary. 

I will not mention the business, but there is one dealer who makes claims that they can remove small quantities of wood which will improve the tone. I have read many testimonials regarding how this has improved their instruments. This process runs around $200 for a "full treatment" and is based on  some of work by a  violin builder and experimenter in acoustics. Therefore, let say you have a $800 Eastman. You spend $200 on this process and $150 for the Tone Rite. At some point all this gets a bit ridiculous in my opinion. This is why I write that you may be searching for something that is not there. 




> You may of course contend that any such effect "does not exist," but if you never have run, and apparently never intend to run the experiment on any of your instruments, because you're satisfied with what you have, I'm at a loss to understand what basis you have for saying that the Tonerite cannot and does not have an effect and/or does not add value.


The basis is based on all the testimonials which are subjective. The assumption also is that the change will be a positive. What happens when the Tone Rite is applied and a negative occurs? If I am happy with the tone I am achieving why would I risk loosing what I have? If I had an instrument that I was not happy with, I would have readily accepted the free offer to evaluate the Tone Rite. If I lived near Nashville, I would have enjoyed helping Joe with his evaluations if it were acceptable to him of course. 

Regards, 

chuck

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## fscotte

> The basis is based on all the testimonials which are subjective. The assumption also is that the change will be a positive. What happens when the Tone Rite is applied and a negative occurs? If I am happy with the tone I am achieving why would I risk loosing what I have? If I had an instrument that I was not happy with, I would have readily accepted the free offer to evaluate the Tone Rite. If I lived near Nashville, I would have enjoyed helping Joe with his evaluations if it were acceptable to him of course. 
> 
> Regards, 
> 
> chuck


Chuck, you're acknowledging something here - that the ToneRite causes a change.  If you didn't believe the ToneRite causes a change, then you wouldn't risk causing a negative change.  So I think it's acceptable to say that you simply do not know whether or not the ToneRite causes a change in the instruments sound.

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## Big Joe

The tone rite does not alter the tone in a negative way from my experience but brings out the tone that is already there if the instrument were played heavily for a period of time.  Certainly most of us do not have the time to spend several hours a day playing a particular instrument.  I have instruments in my hands all day long, but that is not quite the same as "playing" them.  Even if I am playing them it is for a very short time to check something out or demonstrate for someone.  That may be five or thirty instruments in a day.  I own several personal instruments, and they are all great quality, but they don't all get played regularly.  I only have so much time to play them and that has to be divided between them or the mood I'm in.  Lately it has been old time banjo for pleasure. 

I don't believe the tone rite will transform any instrument into something it is not already.  It will only bring out what is already there.  It can replicate actual playing time.  The tone rite vibrates the strings at or near the bridge...all the strings.  It is not just one particular string that vibrates and this vibration of the strings and bridge also vibrates the top replicating about as close to actual playing as can be done.  Continual vibration of the instruments tone woods helps it open up...or whatever term one wishes to apply...faster than it could with most peoples playing schedule.  Again, it only brings out what will normally come out.  It is not a magic button to alter the tone but only allows the instrument to do what it will otherwise do over time.  

Certain instruments...no matter how well built or designed will open up naturally much slower than others.  Red spruce tops are usually a bit slower than sitka.  Red spruce can also go to "sleep" if not played regularly and will take some playing time to open up.  The tone rite can expedite that opening or waking up period...especially for those who cannot play enough to allow that to happen.  

I will repeat again that the first money should always go to proper structural issues and pro setup.  That should be a given.  After that, the tone rite is an aid for musicians to accomplish what is needed.  I am impressed with the product on several levels, but certainly do not think of it as "magic" or anything on that level.  It is, however, a very good tool for most of us as either players or luthiers.

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## Willie Poole

I am not a ToneRight user ...YET...But I believe there is a chance that it could pssibly have a negative effect on an instrument...Years ago I bought an Asian import and it sounded great from the start but in about 3 years of steady playing it seemed to get less and less in tone...I always used the same make of strings and used the same pick...I finally gave it to a young mandolin player that I knew and he played it for a while until he bought a Gibson F-5L...I admit that I played it so often that I never did change the set up in all of the time I owned it so maybe that was the reason it seemed to get lesser in tone and of course the weather changed during the time I owned it...I`m not saying this in a negative way against a ToneRight, just stating what I think could possibly happen, after all can we really tell if the wood will improve after a while or is it at the best it will be when it is used on an instrument?....Willie

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## EdSherry

Willie -- it is certainly "possible" that "there is a chance" of a "negative effect" from a Tonerite treatment, but I haven't experienced it in the 20+ treatments I've done, and I don't think any of the others who have reported on this forum have experienced it. 

The closest thing I've seen was Paul H's comment that he didn't think the effect of a Tonerite treatment was anything that could not be achieved by "real playing."    I would agree that some of the treatments I've done didn't seem to yield a significant effect for that particular instrument.  But I've never experienced a "negative effect."  

I know I've experienced the situation in which I was initially satisfied with a new-to-me instrument, but as I gained more experience I became less satisfied with it.  Basically, I think my ears became more attuned to what I liked and didn't like about the instrument's tone and timbre.  (I'm thinking specifically of my first concertina; when I first got it, I loved it, but as I played more and listened to better-quality instruments, I became less satisfied with the sound and action of mine, and ultimately 'traded up' to a higher-quality instrument.)  Is it possible that that's what you experienced?

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## Rick Turner

I think that where a ToneRite would have a negative effect is with a too-lightly built instrument...one built in an attempt to sound 60 years old right out of the chute.   I've seen a few too many dreadnoughts built like this...real boomers that just turn to mud in a few years.   

The instrument that I have that got the most treatment is a Saga Gitane gypsy jazz guitar.  These can be pretty abrasive sounding instruments, and this one was a bit like that.  After a week of ToneRite it mellowed down nicely while retaining nice punch.  

I would like to see a low impedance ToneRite...one that could be plugged into the speaker output of an amplifier so it could be driven with a wide range of frequencies.   I'm going to try hooking mine up to a tube amp speaker transformer run backwards to see if I can match the drive impedance of an amp to the approximately 4,600 Ohm load of the ToneRite.

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## Chuck Naill

> Chuck, you're acknowledging something here - that the ToneRite causes a change.  If you didn't believe the ToneRite causes a change, then you wouldn't risk causing a negative change.  So I think it's acceptable to say that you simply do not know whether or not the ToneRite causes a change in the instruments sound.


No, I am acknowledging what others are saying. Big Joe says there is a change. He perceived the change as positive. That change may or not be positive to all. 

chuck

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## Rick Turner

Chuck, have any of your instruments changed in tone or responsiveness (which I see as a different issue...) over the months or years you've owned them?

And if so, to what might you attribute the changes?

Do you think that playing instruments changes them?  For the better?  For the worse?

Just trying to see where you're coming from on all this...

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## Chuck Naill

> Chuck, have any of your instruments changed in tone or responsiveness (which I see as a different issue...) over the months or years you've owned them?
> 
> And if so, to what might you attribute the changes?
> 
> Do you think that playing instruments changes them?  For the better?  For the worse?
> 
> Just trying to see where you're coming from on all this...


Rick, 

The changes that I have noticed with the fiddles occurred as a result of the luthier carving a better bridge and installing a  larger diameter sound posted fitted to the underside of the top. 

The Horner A5 sounds a bit less metallic than when it was initially strung up. I attribute this to new strings. As far as a balance of trebles and bass, these have remained as they were from the beginning. 

The Martin D-18 was a good sounding guitar when I bought it used in 2006. The modifications that John Arnold provided allowed the guitar more head room, increased its projection,  and respond more easily. 

I feel I have good hearing and rarely ever change strings. I judge an instrument by the quality of tone (I prefer mellow and fat), how easily or effortlessly it responds to being played, and how well it projects. 

I thinking playing literally warms an instrument from being played and handled. My experiance in that temperature, weather and humidity affect how wooded instruments and strings perform. 

I do not believe that age and being played is why pre war Martins are superior to new Martins. I have played beautiful sounding Martin which apparently from their appearance played very little. These are as good or better than those which had been well played. 

I believe that red spruce is superior to any other spruce for the tone I prefer. I also have developed a preference for particular trees. A 1990 red spruce from West Virginia and part of the inventory of the late Ted Davis is an amazing tree. Mr. Horner said that it allowed him to do things that he would not have been able to do using other trees. This prototype A5 is a product I play acoustically and on stage. It responds well to a soft touch and has plenty of what some call head room for volume. 

I never buy with future expectations because I have found that truly good instruments start out that way.

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## Chuck Naill

Another thought occurred this AM as I was playing the Horner A5 prototype. A good instrument is one you can feel. It is light and resonates significantly against your body as you play. This goes for every product that I have played that sound good and is easy to play. This does mean that every mandolin from the same builder is going to give me that kind of feedback. Most of the good Martin prewars I have played do this and these were factory made products. Very consistent.

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## Amandalyn

> ......A good instrument is one you can feel. It is light and resonates significantly against your body as you play. This goes for every product that I have played that sound good and is easy to play. This does mean that every mandolin from the same builder is going to give me that kind of feedback.......t.


The first part of your statement I agree with, you should be able to feel a good, tone-full instrument and it's potential right off the bat. The last part I don't agree with. In my experience I have played many mandolins by the same builders and they are not all consistent. One I own by a well known luthier known for his excellent tone, and mine is. I was considering buying another one of his mandos, but I couldn't believe how dead sounding it was. Same wood and style. There are so many nuances in each instrument to consider.

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## fscotte

> The first part of your statement I agree with, you should be able to feel a good, tone-full instrument and it's potential right off the bat. The last part I don't agree with. In my experience I have played many mandolins by the same builders and they are not all consistent. One I own by a well known luthier known for his excellent tone, and mine is. I was considering buying another one of his mandos, but I couldn't believe how dead sounding it was. Same wood and style. There are so many nuances in each instrument to consider.


Yeah I agree.  There's nothing in my experiences that a certain build of instrument sounds just as good as the next.  Which suggest that there's much more to maturity of an instrument's tone than just the builder's abilities.  Some sound not so hot from the get go while others sound great.  I've sat down with three brand new Martin D18V models, all set up exactly the same, from the same build, and they all sounded different.

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## Chuck Naill

> The first part of your statement I agree with, you should be able to feel a good, tone-full instrument and it's potential right off the bat. The last part I don't agree with. In my experience I have played many mandolins by the same builders and they are not all consistent. One I own by a well known luthier known for his excellent tone, and mine is. I was considering buying another one of his mandos, but I couldn't believe how dead sounding it was. Same wood and style. There are so many nuances in each instrument to consider.


Sorry, I meant to have written "this does NOT mean", Terri. I absolutely agree with what you wrote. 

chuck

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## George R. Lane

I guess this question would be for Big Joe, since he has some experience with the Tonerite. I have had it on my Yellowstone for 2 days now and when I first put it one there was a low hum sound, now the hum is much louder and the mandolin seems to be vibrating more. Is this normal? Could this be a part of the mando opening up? It was only 10 days old when I started.

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## Rick Turner

While I agree that feeling an instrument is part of a great experience you may have with it, I've also come to the conclusion that the ones you feel the most...where the vibration is coming into your body from the back...with or without a ToneGuard...these instruments do not project sound forward like some others (for instance SelMac style guitars or in the classical guitar world, Smallman guitars) that have relatively rigid and reflective sides and backs.   

I have had the chance to test this in a studio environment comparing a 1934 D-28 Bluegrass wet dream guitar against one that I made for my pal Henry Kaiser to take to Antarctica.   My guitar was 3 dB louder 11" away from the top with the mic at about half way between neck joint and sound hole.  Yet the D-28 felt and sounded louder to a player than mine.   Mine had a very rigid back and stiff sides whereas that D-28 was pretty light all around.   

So I no longer go by feel alone in telling me how an instrument responds.  I need to hear it out front.   And it's not that one way is "better" than the other...it's just different.  It will depend on how you intend to use the instrument as to which is best.  I think for a lot of stage use, instruments that project like mad are best, whereas for sitting at home or in various small venue acoustic jams, the instrument that envelops you is a better choice.   Fortunately, we as builders have a number of tricks at our disposal to push the sound one way or the other.   

And then there's just that under the hands feel thing...and I do believe that the ToneRite made that factor better on the Gitane I put it on.   

I will have an interesting opportunity coming up.  I'm building 18 near replicas of Buddy Holly's 1943 Gibson J-45...Red (Adirondack) spruce tops, mahogany backs and sides, hide glue body construction, laminated maple/walnut necks (as per original), etc.   These guitars will be as alike as I can make them, and all parts are being batch processed, and the tops will all be deflection matched.   I'll ToneRite some and not others and have some pretty good test mules to work with.   If I like the ToneRite on these, they'll all get it.

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## Chuck Naill

> Yet the D-28 felt and sounded louder to a player than mine. Mine had a very rigid back and stiff sides whereas that D-28 was pretty light all around.


Then is my mind, the D-28 would be preferable. It is important that I can hear the instrument especially in a groups acoustic setting. I suspect that this is why many prefer the lightly braced Martins. 

The reason I need to hear is because I don't want to have to pick hard to hear what I am doing. I also like the sustain I get with these type of instruments. 





> So I no longer go by feel alone in telling me how an instrument responds. I need to hear it out front. And it's not that one way is "better" than the other...it's just different.


I cannot disagree, but it important that I enjoy playing the instrument more that what the audience or others are hearing. I can use a mic if I need to for them. If I am not getting something from the instrument, I am not satisfied. However, this is only one of the things I look for. 




> My guitar was 3 dB louder 11" away from the top with the mic at about half way between neck joint and sound hole.


How would you qualify the tonal differences if any? 

chuck

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## Amandalyn

> I guess this question would be for Big Joe, since he has some experience with the Tonerite. I have had it on my Yellowstone for 2 days now and when I first put it one there was a low hum sound, now the hum is much louder and the mandolin seems to be vibrating more. Is this normal? Could this be a part of the mando opening up? It was only 10 days old when I started.


It's probably moved a little bit during the process, which can happen, causing  the vibrations to vary. The slider switch may have been moved? You will find by sliding the TR to various positions between  the bridge and fretboard it will emit different levels of vibrations, so a little tweeking helps find an optimal location on your instrument.

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## Chuck Naill

> I guess this question would be for Big Joe, since he has some experience with the Tonerite. I have had it on my Yellowstone for 2 days now and when I first put it one there was a low hum sound, now the hum is much louder and the mandolin seems to be vibrating more. Is this normal? Could this be a part of the mando opening up? It was only 10 days old when I started.


Please understand, no disrespect to mandomonium, but this is illustrative of the crux of the issue with products designed to enhance tone. 

If the mandolin were opening up, would it not be obvious? Also, why would you not take the device off and play in instrument to assess the progress rather than wondering if an increase in volume means the product is "improving". Does an increase in vibration mean something positive and why? 

Lastly, I found the Yellowstone to have a retail price of $5k. Why did it even need a tone enhancer? Was there something negative about the product's tone at "10 days old? If there was something negative, why was it purchased?

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## Rick Turner

Chuck, my instruments are voice to put a bit more power into the midrange.   And that particular instrument has undergone a slight modification now...at Henry's request, I put in two side ports which now give more back to him as a player without apparently harming the projection.  

And I keep seeing this implication that folks are trying to make bad instruments sound good using the ToneRite.   I do not believe that to be the case.  All we are hoping for is to bring the instruments to their potential faster, and I think that an overwhelming majority of folks who have tried the device believe it to have helped to do that.  

I still don't understand how you, Chuck, can be so dead set against something with which you've got absolutely no experience.   Your distaste for the ToneRite defies logic as it is totally based on some emotional issue rather than healthy skepticism.   I don't think that anyone who is so unwilling to try something like this has a valid perspective.   It's like a kid rejecting a food they've never tried.   "I don't like broccoli!"  "Have you ever tried it?"  "No, cause I don't like it!"

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## fscotte

Yeah that's what I'm trying to figure out too Rick.  What is the point, agenda, goal, reasoning, end result, of arguing against a device that people say helps improve their instruments?  No one has given one good reason why.  Until they do, I see their arguments as emotional and baseless.

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## George R. Lane

Teri.
Thanks for the resonse. I have kept it in the same position since the start. It is on my Hamilton stand withe the tonegard resting against the bridge. I personally feel that that the wood is vibrating more freely now. In the beginning the sound was a low hum and now it is louder and the mando does have much more vibrations. I have taken the tonerite off and played my mando, my family say it is louder and nicer sounding ( yes, they are not musicians, but they do have ears). I plan on keeping the tonegard on for the full six days and have the musicians who first played in the music store play it again on Monday, then see what they say. 

Mr. Naill,
No offense taken. I do take the tonegard off everyday at 3:30 in the afternoon (that is the time when I first put it on) and play it for about 20 minutes, just to hear the progress. The reason I bought it was to try and increase the midtones, they felt a little tight. Yes, the Yellowstone is in the midrange in price, but it wouldn't matter if it was a 1k or a 10k instrument all wooden instruments change over time. That has been stated in several threads. I do understand that it is very subjective. Why then do people spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a Gibson Loar when just about any good sounding mandolin will do. I am very glad that you are  happy with your instruments. I would ask that you allow those of us who try to bring out the best in ours do whatever we want without being chastised by naysayers.

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## Big Joe

I have seen and worked on Loar (Lloyd) that were asleep from lack of play time.  I would love to have had a tone rite to use on those instruments to see what they would have sounded like when awake again.  I have used it on very low end to high end instruments and everything in between and it works on all of them.  It does not improve the instrument, it only allows us to hear and feel what it is like when awake, opened up, played in...whatever term one wishes to use.  I have said before that it does not give the instrument anything that is not already in there, just allows it to get there faster.

I, too, do not understand Chuck's position and only see it as argumentative rather than a reasonable position.  I agree that everyone has the right to whatever position they wish and have the right to say so.  In any case, a continued argument that does not allow for any personal experimentation seems odd to me.  Emotional positions do not always give good results.  Just my opinion.

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## Bill Van Liere

Thanks for all your efforts and input Joe.

I started this thread when I noticed that after some playing the new Bourgeois was sounding better than the old D-18, which at that time was receiving about no play time. I was really skeptical about an older, previously played, instrument going to sleep, so the comment about vintage LL Gibson needing some waking up interested me.

So maybe we can now discuss how comparing a 46 Martin to a 23 Gibson has no validity?

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## Chuck Naill

> I would ask that you allow those of us who try to bring out the best in ours do whatever we want without being chastised by naysayer


I am sorry you are feeling 'chastised' since this is not my intent. For me it's simply an opportunity to discuss a debatable subject and nothing more. If you and others think instruments open up and that devices such as the Tone Rite work, you have to go with your inclinations. 

Regards, 

chuck

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## buckles

> ...For me it's simply an opportunity to discuss a debatable subject and nothing more....


But this has been something like a debate on the effects of alcohol, where one of the lead debaters has never touched a drop!

However, finally, after many days, all debaters have at least managed to agree that alcohol _does_ have an effect...  :Smile:

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## Chuck Naill

> I still don't understand how you, Chuck, can be so dead set against something with which you've got absolutely no experience.   Your distaste for the ToneRite defies logic as it is totally based on some emotional issue rather than healthy skepticism.   I don't think that anyone who is so unwilling to try something like this has a valid perspective.   It's like a kid rejecting a food they've never tried.   "I don't like broccoli!"  "Have you ever tried it?"  "No, cause I don't like it!"


Emotion? Perhaps that is your guiding light but certainly not mine. My opinions are based on evidence and experience concerning building constructs. No machine will overcome poor design, thick wood, and heavy braces. As a builder you should at least recognize this with your posts. If you think the device will suffice, then I have no argument. However, it is obvious that some here have expectations that are based on what some of you builders and dealers suggest to them. Perhaps, I am providing another perspective.

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## Chuck Naill

> But this has been something like a debate on the effects of alcohol, where one of the lead debaters has never touched a drop!


Excellent point. I don't have to consume alcohol to determine its affect on human physiology and bodily function. We are a sad bunch if the only way to evaluate something means we need to try it. The more you understand how instruments work, the more you will appreciate the genius of particular builders and their processes. 

It seems like some of you think that a 1970's Martin will someday sound like a 1935 Martin if given enough time and provide enough exposure to devices. It will never happen and I don't need to experience it to understand why. 

There is a reason why Gilchrist and Dudenbostals have value. Study how those guys do it and you will have some idea of why great instruments are great and sought after.

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## Paul Kotapish

> Emotion? Perhaps that is your guiding light but certainly not mine. My opinions are based on evidence and experience concerning building constructs. No machine will overcome poor design, thick wood, and heavy braces. As a builder you should at least recognize this with your posts. If you think the device will suffice, then I have no argument. However, it is obvious that some here have expectations that are based on what some of you builders and dealers suggest to them. Perhaps, I am providing another perspective.


Chuck,

I have no dog in this fight and no basis for an opinion on the efficacy of the Tonerite, but I've read through this entire thread, and I have to say that your persistent nay saying  on the matter seems to have no basis in what you call "evidence and experience concerning building constructs." 

Nobody--least of all the luthiers--has made a claim that the Tonerite will change a dud instrument into gem.

Most of the folks who have actually tried the Tonerite on a variety of instruments concurs that it has a perceivable impact on the tone and volume of the instruments. 

I don't see how you can claim to base your opinions on evidence and experience if you have never actually tried the device in question.

I've been a bit of a doubting Thomas myself, but this thread has piqued my curiousity enough so that I'm going to buy or borrow a Tonerite to try on a couple of my instruments to see what all the hubbub is about. Until I do, I have absolutely no basis for negating the actual evidence and experience of the folks who have already tried the experiment.

And FWIW, I know a bunch of the folks making positive assertions--Ed, Rick, et al--and I can tell you that they are not in the least governed by emotion, fantasy, or wishful thinking. These guys know their instruments better than most of us can hope to, and I've always found their advice worthwhile. 

Peace.

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## SternART

> There is a reason why Gilchrist and Dudenbostals have value. Study how those guys do it and you will have some idea of why great instruments are great and sought after.


YMMV........BUT........I've had excellent results on both my Gilchrist and Dudenbostel with the ToneRite.

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## George R. Lane

Mr. Naill,
I have not read where anyone has said it turned their particular instrument into the greatist one in the world. I personally don't think this will turn my Yellowstone into a Loar, Gilchrist or a Dude, but if I (and I alone) feel there is an improvement then the money was well spent. I do not believe anyone can do any test to prove it works, we all hear sounds differently. So the end user will be the final judge of its' performance. Seventeen pages of discussion has not drawn any kind of conclusion and it could go on for another 1,700 pages with no final result. Remember the story of the boy who cried wolf and how after a while nobody would listen to him. I think you have reached that point in this discussion.

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## Rick Turner

Paul K., if you want to try a guitar version, email me.

And Chuck, you have steadfastly held to your misunderstanding of what the overwhelming majority of those who have tried the ToneRite believe, and that is that this is a device which can help an instrument mature into what it was destined to be by design, materials, and time (and I mean playing time, for one thing) to be.   You keep adhering to this silk purse from sow's ear model which none of us are claiming.  I do not believe that playing and vibration are the only causes of change in instruments.   It is known that there are certain physical changes to wood that have to do with repeated climactic change and actual age itself as resins harden and wood loses hemicellulose (look it up...), but one of the causes for change does indeed seem to be vibration.   I've heard it, and I've seen the "scientific" proof, though that was with a system that caused at least ten times the strength of induced vibrations that the ToneRite achieves...the TimbreTech shaker table.   

I don't think the ToneRite is perfect.   I'd much rather see something that can be driven from an audio amplifier and thus be driven by a full range of audio frequencies from an audio oscillator or even the output of a stereo amp so you could play music through it.   There could be interesting effects from driving one of these devices hard at particular frequencies.   One could conceivably tame wolf notes or "improve" weaker registers, but that's going way beyond what's being discussed...and argued...here.  

And I still haven't read anything from Chuck re. whether or not he believes that instruments mature over time and with playing without the ToneRite.  

And this bit about changes heard by the ToneRite being about string changes is ridiculous.   There was one back there that basically claimed that changing the strings was what resulted in mellower tone.   Hunh?   Never happened on any instrument I ever owned unless I went from one string formula to a radically different one...like steel to nylon...

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## buckles

> YMMV........BUT........I've had excellent results on both my Gilchrist and Dudenbostel with the ToneRite.


Ditto.

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## SternART

> I don't think the ToneRite is perfect.   I'd much rather see something that can be driven from an audio amplifier and thus be driven by a full range of audio frequencies from an audio oscillator or even the output of a stereo amp so you could play music through it.   There could be interesting effects from driving one of these devices hard at particular frequencies.   One could conceivably tame wolf notes or "improve" weaker registers, but that's going way beyond what's being discussed...and argued...here.


I agree with you there Rick. Roger Siminoff addresses some of this in his more thorough dedamping service.  He takes measurements of the resonant frequencies of the plates and bars, and he can then adjust the frequency he blasts the instrument with, to excite certain parts of the instrument.  The Toneright does have a positive effect, but true dedamping takes it to another level.  I was reading how in Europe it is used a lot in bowed wooden instrument repair, when top cracks are repaired, as a means to break in the cleats & new glue to vibrate better with the top.

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## Geoff B

> And I still haven't read anything from Chuck re. whether or not he believes that instruments mature over time and with playing without the ToneRite.


Not meaning to speak for him, but his stance makes sense if he doesn't believe in "opening up" at all...  All changes in sound Chuck has alluded to have been string changes, wood removal or component changes.  
Assuming he does has led to a lot of futile arguments. Not establishing a common ground in instruments changing their voice over time is pretty critical to a constructive conversation here.  If one doesn't believe in it, there really isn't anything to talk about and, of course, a tonerite will be a bad idea.

That is not my experience however, so he can have his, and I'll take mine... I'm curious about the tonerite and have been experimenting on my own with a vibrating motor and a potentiometer... and playing, obviously...

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## foldedpath

> And Chuck, you have steadfastly held to your misunderstanding of what the overwhelming majority of those who have tried the ToneRite believe, and that is that this is a device which can help an instrument mature into what it was destined to be by design, materials, and time (and I mean playing time, for one thing) to be.   You keep adhering to this silk purse from sow's ear model which none of us are claiming.


Okay, let's talk about instruments that aren't sow's ears. 

I have a 3-year old Lebeda F5 mandolin (redwood top) bought new, that I'm 100% happy with. I play it several times a week at least. It's what I use in our Celtic trio, and I play it in the bi-weekly Irish session that my S.O. and I host. It's the proverbial "better than I am" instrument. I'll consider an upgrade when I think it's the instrument holding me back, instead of my own playing skills. Right now it's me, not the axe. It's a pretty good axe, as these things go.

My S.O. plays a fiddle she had custom-built by a local, very respected luthier. It cost more than twice what my mandolin did. She plays her custom fiddle several times a week with our little house sessions and private practice, and joins me in leading a bi-weekly pub session. She's had it to the builder a few times since delivery (last time just a week ago), and he's been tweaking it make sure it's adjusting properly to the seasons and the first year of aging. 

Now, are you _really_ suggesting that my S.O. and I should buy a ToneRite (two ToneRites, actually) to make our instruments "better," when we paid a lot of money for them from respected luthiers, and we're 100% happy with our instruments? 

Or is this actually about not being happy with what you've got, and looking for some fast-track gadget to make up the difference?

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## foldedpath

> I am very glad that you are  happy with your instruments. I would ask that you allow those of us who try to bring out the best in ours do whatever we want without being chastised by naysayers.


George, try to look at this from the other side. We have people like Rick here saying:




> ... this is a device which can help an instrument mature into what it was destined to be by design, materials, and time (and I mean playing time, for one thing) to be.


So, all these wonderful hand-crafted instruments that many of us have bought from other independent luthiers _who don't endorse the ToneRite_, are somehow deficient... because we haven't strapped on a $150 vibrating gizmo to bring them to their "full potential." Or maybe we're just not good enough musicians to be playing them frequently enough, so we need this as a crutch.

Do you see how that sounds, from the other side?

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## MandoNicity

> Excellent point. I don't have to consume alcohol to determine its affect on human physiology and bodily function. We are a sad bunch if the only way to evaluate something means we need to try it. The more you understand how instruments work, the more you will appreciate the genius of particular builders and their processes. 
> 
> It seems like some of you think that a 1970's Martin will someday sound like a 1935 Martin if given enough time and provide enough exposure to devices. It will never happen and I don't need to experience it to understand why. 
> 
> There is a reason why Gilchrist and Dudenbostals have value. Study how those guys do it and you will have some idea of why great instruments are great and sought after.


I also have no pony in this race, but I have been reading through this thread and find it of interest.  I find no where in the thread anyone claiming to change an instrument such as you state here, only people claiming that using this device "opens" up their instruments  faster then daily playing, speeding up this process.  Over and over you, (Chuck) keep repeating this mantra of cows ear to silk purse syndrome that apparently only you see.  It's quite apparent that nothing will change your mind regarding this device.  That is fine.  I think we all "get it".  For the rest of us curious souls,  it's interesting to read what people that have USED the device have to say.  

JR

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## Chuck Naill

> I also have no pony in this race, but I have been reading through this thread and find it of interest.  I find no where in the thread anyone claiming to change an instrument such as you state here, only people claiming that using this device "opens" up their instruments  faster then daily playing, speeding up this process.  Over and over you, (Chuck) keep repeating this mantra of cows ear to silk purse syndrome that apparently only you see.  It's quite apparent that nothing will change your mind regarding this device.  That is fine.  I think we all "get it".  For the rest of us curious souls,  it's interesting to read what people that have USED the device have to say.  
> 
> JR


Apparently my comments are irritating a number of you regarding the use of artificial devices for the purpose of achieving some type of subjective tonal perceptions that no on can quite define. This has resulted in more and more posts which seem aimed more at me than the discussion. 

I have no problem with what any of you choose to purchase. If you want to spend $5000 on something that needs to be "opened up" that's your prerogative. I choose to buy what sounds good today. This is preference and both are subjective. 

The objective part of this discussion is well understood by those that build. They know what it takes to produce a good sounding product. 

I think that's it for me with this discussion. 

chuck

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## George R. Lane

Foldedpath,
Mr. Naill has a right to his opinion and I do see it from his side. Unfortunatly he doesn't seem to see it from his other side. As I have said this is an experiment for me, if it doesn't work on my mando then I will put it up int he classifieds for someone else to try. Yes I will be out a few dollars, so be it. I just ask don't condemn those who wish to experiment.

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## fscotte

Good idea Chuck.  While you are "careful" in how you approach this argument, others in your camp are not...




> ...$150 vibrating gizmo





> ...some fast-track gadget


Those kind of adjectives in describing the ToneRite are probably an accurate representation of most naysayers.  Which eludes to what's going on here.  I refrain from calling it jealousy because that doesn't seem logical.  Perhaps disdain for a company who is seemingly "ripping off customers with the help of well-known and respected luthiers and players" is more accurate.

But fortunately for everyone, if the ToneRite is a "fast-track gadget" or a "vibrating gizmo" it won't have a long life in this free market.  I think we can all be assured in that fact.

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## Big Joe

I have said Chuck...and anyone has their right to their opinion.  However, to assume many of us luthiers do not have any idea of what makes a great instrument is more than insulting.  I believe I speak for a number of us who have seen, played, owned, worked on, and built instruments that are great and have an incredible understanding of what it takes to create a great instrument.  Our lives have been spent in that endeavor.  We may approach our craft from different points of view and may have different backgrounds and experience, but we still have more than a mild understanding of great instruments.  I work on them every single day and have for many years.

I think we also have clearly stated that they will only be what they are with the tone rite.  No magic, just a fast track to helping them develop the potential that is already there.  No one has said anything more than that...especially amongst the luthiers.  A refusal to try an item for fear is nothing more than an emotional response.  Stating they "know what makes a great instrument" with the assertion that the luthiers on this forum do not is quite insulting.  You don't have to like the products we produce or purchase them.  That is a personal decision.  However, to castigate this group of men / women by stating you are more capable than they to determine what a great instrument is and that somehow the instruments they build, work on, or play are somehow deficient in build quality is more than just a slap on the face.  

For me, I have no dog in this fight one way or the other.  I only reported what I experienced and that is that.  I have offered to let Chuck borrow the device, an offer that was quickly refused for fear it may harm his instrument.  That is an emotional response not based on logic or fact.  It certainly has not hurt any instrument I've put it on and don't believe it has the capability to do so.  It only brings forth what is already there.  If the instrument is defective you may have a problem, but if that is the case, then the argument that you know what constitutes a "great" instrument has become flawed.  I have great difficult following the logic... or lack thereof. 

This thread has gone from an honest discussion of a product to a name calling rag tag bunch of defensive posts that is getting out of control.  For me, I am done with this thread.  I have had enough of the nonsense.  If anyone has any honest questions they are more than welcome to e-mail, call, or pm me at anytime.  Thank you...and again, I say that Chuck has the right to his opinion whether it is based on fact or emotion.  The fact that he is wrong makes no difference, he still has the right to his opinion.

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## George R. Lane

+1

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## Rick Turner

Opinions are one thing.

Facts are another...

If one refuses to face facts, then perhaps their opinions are misguided, to put it politely.

One simple fact is that instruments change with time and playing...or vibrating.   Another fact is that "artificial" vibrating can fairly quickly simulate at least some of the more "natural" effects of long term playing.  That's not an opinion, it's a provable fact, proven to me not by my ears (though I do believe them) but rather by the frequency and amplitude response charts I saw nearly 20 years ago when the TimbreTech device was at the then headquarters of SWR Amplifiers in the San Fernando Valley.   I'm trying to track down some of the before and after charts, but since the whole thing shut down years ago, it's not easy.   However, I stand by my statement of having literally seen proof.  

This is not an argument about whether this stuff works or not; it's an argument about whether various people want it done to their instruments or not.   If Chuck really didn't believe it would work, then why should he be afraid to apply a ToneRite to one of his instruments?  Why? Because it might actually do something, and he's afraid he wouldn't like the results.   That's believing but not wanting to risk disappointment.   So the easiest path is total rejection of the whole concept. 

I can certainly accept not wanting to change an instrument; that's a matter of considered opinion.  I can't accept thinking that vibration won't change an instrument; that's simply not accepting truth.

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## EdSherry

Foldedspot asks:

"Now, are you really suggesting that my S.O. and I should buy a ToneRite (two ToneRites, actually) to make our instruments "better," when we paid a lot of money for them from respected luthiers, and we're 100% happy with our instruments? 

"Or is this actually about not being happy with what you've got, and looking for some fast-track gadget to make up the difference?"

Again, if you're "100% happy with [your] instruments," there's no point in spending ANYTHING (whether the cost of a Tonerite or something else) to see whether some alternative might improve your sound.  But according to your description of your SO's situation, she was NOT "100% happy" with the sound of her instrument, and took it back to the luthier to try to improve it.  Maybe by now she's "100% satisfied."  But how does she (or you) know that the instrument might not be improved by a Tonerite treatment?   That strikes me as the relevant question.  

Foldedpath also suggests:

"So, all these wonderful hand-crafted instruments that many of us have bought from other independent luthiers who don't endorse the ToneRite, are somehow deficient... because we haven't strapped on a $150 vibrating gizmo to bring them to their "full potential." Or maybe we're just not good enough musicians to be playing them frequently enough, so we need this as a crutch.

"Do you see how that sounds, from the other side?"

This strikes me as a 'straw man' argument.  As I see it, the issue is not whether some instrument is 'deficient,' but rather whether a Tonerite treatment can have an appreciable positive effect on an instrument's sound. Suppose that instrument X has a sound with sound quality Y.  If by applying a Tonerite treatment, one can improve X's sound from Y to Y + 20%, the idea that Y (or even Y+20%) is somehow seen as 'deficient' does not seem to me to be the relevant test.

Foldedpaths' "crutch" language strikes me as particularly inapposite.  In particular, his suggestion that "we're just not _good enough musicians_ to be _playing them frequently enough_, so we need this _as a crutch_," seems to me go be conflating three different issues:

(a) Am I a "good enough musician"?
(b) Am I playing each of my instruments "frequently enough" to keep each of them played-in?
(c) If I'm not in a position to play each of my instruments frequently enough to keep them 'played in', is it a 'crutch' to rely on a mechanical device (the Tonerite) to substitute for lengthy and frequent play-in?

I have over 200 instruments. Given that pesky "day job" situation that I face, there is no physical way that I can devote as much time as I would like to playing each one of them.  I am fortunate that I can treat them with a Tonerite to substitute for the playing-in time on each instrument that, in a [very] different world in which the pesky demands of work, family, etc. didn't arise, I would be able to devote to each instrument.  But why is it a "crutch" to take advantage of the fact that my Tonerite can be plugged in 24/7, when I clearly cannot play on a 24/7 basis?

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## Chuck Naill

> I have over 200 instruments. Given that pesky "day job" situation that I face, there is no physical way that I can devote as much time as I would like to playing each one of them. I am fortunate that I can treat them with a Tonerite to substitute for the playing-in time on each instrument that, in a [very] different world in which the pesky demands of work, family, etc. didn't arise, I would be able to devote to each instrument. But why is it a "crutch" to take advantage of the fact that my Tonerite can be plugged in 24/7, when I clearly cannot play on a 24/7 basis?


I am not addressing the device but your argument, Ed. 

The basis of why you use a device lies in your opinion that an instrument demands some sort of devotion and constantly played "24/7". This opinion is not universally appreciated. The cellist that developed the idea of a vibrating device held to your opinion. All cellist do not agree or else these devices would be in every orchestra pit. 

There are advertisements on the internet suggesting that this device will accelerate a "played in" or even produce a "vintage" tone. This assumes two debatable opinions. One that instruments become played in and two that a vintage tone is the result of being played over time. The latter opinion would suggest that the Lloyd Loar era mandolins are exceptional because they are old and played. In my opinion vintage tone comes from vintage building constructs, but perhaps others disagree.

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## Kevin K

You can hear a difference between an "old" instrument and an "old" instrument that has been played.  The old played instrument is more alive.
You can hear a difference between an "new" unplayed and "new" played instrument as well.  The tone rite reduces that wake up time, doesn't make a bad instrument better just helps whats "in" the instrument to come out.  All builders are a little different just like each individual instrument because of the wood.  Building methods are different as well, not better, not worse.  Playing helps an instrument, the tone rite copies the natural action of a person playing, the end result is a nice one, one that many people have enjoyed on their unique instrument.

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## Kerry Krishna

Willy, as per your question about negative effects, of the 135 axes done on the Collings Forum, there was only one that I know of. It was a brand new Gibson that got a full 3 day treatment. After it was over the guitar sounded quite a bit worse. It turned out that there there was a brace inside that just about fell out as it was never glued!   The  owner had sold the guitar by the time he found out . He also sold me the TR at full price just about the same day! He was unhappy with that ol' TR!  After he found out about the brace, and had received payment from me for the TR, he then went out and bought another one and uses it just like so many on that Forum do.

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## EdSherry

Chuck -- You respond to what you contend is my "opinion that an instrument demands some sort of devotion and constantly played '24/7'.  

I never said that an instrument "demands" anything, much less "constantly play[ing] 24/7."  What I said was that I can treat an instrument with a Tonerite 24/7 for a week, which is something I cannot do with 'regular' playing given my pesky other time constraints (like work and sleep).  

You say:  "The cellist that developed the idea of a vibrating device held to your opinion. All cellist do not agree or else these devices would be in every orchestra pit."   In my experience, many musicians are conservative folks, and are reluctant to try new products or new treatments.  (The best example I can think of is carbon-fiber bows for violin, viola, cello and bass.  Some string players seem to have an almost visceral rejection of the idea that carbon-fiber can make an acceptable professional-quality bow.  Others seem to have no problems.  Certainly the early carbon-fiber bows had problems, but a lot of those problems have been resolved in more recent models.)  

It doesn't strike me as a legitimate basis for not investigating whether something might work to argue that others have not done so. 

By way of analogy, I vivdly recall being one of the first to buy and use a Tonegard, which I got from Randy Allen at a bluegrass festival probably ten to a dozen years ago.  They're now far more common and widely-recognized than they were when I bought my first one, as witnessed by the number of Tonegard users among top players.   Not everybody uses one, just as not every violinist uses a chinrest or a shoulder rest.  But a lot of people find them useful.  

I never argued or suggested that the test of whether something works is whether it has been widely accepted by others [your "every orchestra pit" example.]  All I was (and am) saying is that a Tonerite treatment seems (on the basis of my admittedly subjective but repeated testing) to result in a discernable improvement, and that others whose 'ears' I trust seem to share that same belief.   

You also suggest that some [unspecified] individuals are arguing that "a vintage tone is the result of being played over time," and that this "would suggest that the Lloyd Loar era mandolins are exceptional because they are old and played. In my opinion vintage tone comes from vintage building constructs ..."

IMHO, merely being "old and played" does not make for Loar-quality tone.  "Vintage" tone is not necessarily the same as "good" tone, as the sound of a lot of low-end 1920's-era (or earlier) instruments demonstrates.  The early Orville Gibson mandolins I've played are clearly of an older "vintage" than the Loar-eran instruments; but I don't know anyone who prefers the sound of the earlier Orville-era ones to the Loar ones.  They certainly don't command anywhere near the price.

Over the years, I have a number of old instruments (as old or older than Loars) that clearly have been played significantly during their lifetime.  My main axe for Celtic and folk playing is a maple-bodied Vega Cylinderback that pre-dates Loar's era at Gibson.  But though I love the sound of the instrument given what I use it for, it doesn't sound anything like a Loar.

I don't expect mere playing (no matter how extensive) to turn a low-end instrument into a high-end one (like a Loar).  Quality construction clearly matters.  But IMHO, that's not the relevant question.  The issue as I see it is whether a Tonerite treatment can bring out of a given instrument better tone, timbre and volume than would be present without a treatment.

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## SternART

Well said!  Who's next?  
Pass the  :Popcorn:

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## Chuck Naill

> Chuck -- You respond to what you contend is my "opinion that an instrument demands some sort of devotion and constantly played '24/7'. 
> 
> I never said that an instrument "demands" anything, much less "constantly play[ing] 24/7." What I said was that I can treat an instrument with a Tonerite 24/7 for a week, which is something I cannot do with 'regular' playing given my pesky other time constraints (like work and sleep).


Ed, 

Okay, but why is there a need or desire to "regularly" play an instrument other that producing music or enjoyment? I am honestly confused as to why it would matter to anyone for a guitar, mandolin, etc. to go un-played. This is like me thinking that I need to run my cordless drill for some other purpose than what it was intended to be used for because there is a benefit associated with use. 

My perception is that for some there is an opinion that a potential lies within each instrument that begs to be let out which can only happen over time and with persistent play. My position is that the constructs produces the potential. 




> By way of analogy, I vivdly recall being one of the first to buy and use a Tonegard, which I got from Randy Allen at a bluegrass festival probably ten to a dozen years ago. They're now far more common and widely-recognized than they were when I bought my first one, as witnessed by the number of Tonegard users among top players. Not everybody uses one, just as not every violinist uses a chinrest or a shoulder rest. But a lot of people find them useful.


Personally, I would not want one of those metal contraptions on my mandolin and against my side. I have learned how to hold the mandolin sitting or standing without a strap with minimal dampening affects from my body. 

I do not use a shoulder rest or chin rest on most of my fiddles, but I may go to them down the road if I ever get beyond second position.

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## Big Joe

I love Swiss automatic watches.  I have a couple and they fascinate me to no end.  Probably for the same reasons I love mandolins and guitars and banjo.  They are intricate instruments built in such a way that the greater care to the little things make a better product.  With and automatic watch it will wind itself as it is worn on the wrist.  If the watch is worn on a daily basis it will stay wound and not need any attention.  However, if you do not wear it for a day or two it will stop running.  If you wish to wear it again, it must be wound and set to the current time and then as long as worn will continue to run.  If you have more than one watch and wear them at different times you will find times when a watch will not be running and must be wound and set before wearing.  

The process of having to set the watch and wind it when you wish to wear it can be frustrating to some.  They want the watch to be set and working when they put it on.  They like to have them running continually.  To help with this process, there are companies that make machines that will keep your watch running by moving it on a scheduled basis.  They range from the fairly simple to the quite ornate computer driven winders.  Some will hold only one watch.  Others can wind up to 24 watches at a time.

To further complicate the issue, there are many highly regarded watch makers that feel keeping the watch running continually will actually lengthen the life of the watch by not allowing the oils to settle or gel, which can cause premature wear on parts.  When you are dealing with the tiny little parts in a watch movement it is easy to see how important the right lubrication can be.  Leaving a watch without it running on a regular basis is actually bad for the watch.  

I bring this example forward to show the arguments expressed here are not unique to the mandolin world alone.  Some people would not have an automatic watch, no matter how high quality.  They argue the ten dollar quartz watch they have that was made in China is as good as any other watch and it is likely more accurate and never needs winding or setting...until the battery dies or the watch just quits.  Then they can buy another for a LOT less than the cost of a Swiss automatic.  For them the whole concept of owning a very high quality machine on the wrist is completely foreign.  They just don't get it no matter what anyone says or shows.  

The same is true with handguns (and I suppose rifles and shotguns).  I love nice handguns.  I have my Kimber .45 and it is a very nice piece of machinery.  I would love a Wilson Combat, but they are a bit above my ability to purchase.  Still, many find a Glock to be more than sufficient for what they want.  This is not an argument about brands and which is best for anyone, but the same is true for guns as for watches or guitars or ???.  Some like to take their pistols and put them in a museum type case and never allow it to be handled or shot.  That is fine for them.  I like to shoot mine, and since I do often carry, I feel it is important to be very intimately familiar with my pistol.  

I guess what I am saying is that the enhancements that many of us enjoy and use will never be accepted by a segment of the population, whether that be in musical instruments, watches, or pistols, or any other segment of the population.  Some like it simple and no evidence of superior performance will alter ones mind.  They like it simple and cannot or will not understand why anyone would want something to be better.  It is not based upon science or anything but emotion and personal choice and that is fully acceptable.  It may not be the way I think or others think, but it is fine for that person.

The same is true with different styles of music.  I work a lot in Bluegrass, old time, and country markets as well as jazz and blues.  The diversity is fun, but certain segments, and even more, sub segments in that group...can be very, very particular and expect everything to be just as it was some period of time ago and innovation in the way it is played, or the instruments it is played on is very heavily disrespected.  I don't see why it should be such a bid deal, but for many in those segments of music it is VERY important.  Often the ideal to keep a certain style or instrument pure as it was in a certain period of time loses its focus because that music was played on those instruments....which may have been very innovative at that time in history....must be played the same way on the same instruments today.  

Progressive people in music or manufacturing often find a difficult road.  It cost Lloyd Loar his job and we still do all we can to replicate exactly what he did 90 years ago.  Innovation has always been a tough road for mandolin builders every since.  I guess the desire to keep a certain place in our hearts that gives us a feeling of security is important, but sometimes that can lead to rather odd movements or decisions.  Still, it is a personal choice, and though I heartily disagree with nearly everything Chuch has said, it is his privilege and right to hold that view.  In some odd way I kind of respect his refusal to be guided by evidence of any way.  He knows what he wants and is not about to be changed.  For the rest of us, we have our own points of resistance to the new and that is fine for us.  Have a Great Day!  and enjoy our diversity.

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## Willie Poole

IMHO...I believe all of us should try things to try and improve what we own...What would it cost us....I am always tinkering with things that I own to try and make them better, I finally tried the Toneright and I`ll say this,,,"They work", sure my mandolin don`t sound exactly like a `23 Loar but it made the rest of my band members stand up and take a listen and make a remark that it sounded better than ever...I might add That I purchased this mandolin in July of 2009 and have played it just about every day and was satisfied with the tone and loudness as it was but trying the Tonerite made such a difference that I am going to try it on all of the mandolins that I have, and I have owned the others for many, many years and I`m sure they have "opened "up by now.....

    Great comparisons Big Joe....Put on your hard hat because I`m sure Mr. Nail will be throwing things at you....



willie

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## EdSherry

Chuck:  you ask:

"why is there a need or desire to 'regularly' play an instrument other that [sic] producing music or enjoyment? I am honestly confused as to why it would matter to anyone for a guitar, mandolin, etc. to go un-played." 

Obviously, there's no reason to play an instrument other than "producing music or enjoyment" -- other than that tedium known as 'practicing', which often involves neither "music" in any meaningful sense or "enjoyment".  But that doesn't strike me as what you're getting at.  

IMHO, one reason to "play in" an instrument is because instruments can "go to sleep" if not played. If I only have a limited amount of time to play, especially if I have an important gig or recording session coming up, I don't want to spend part of my playing time "waking up" the instrument.  Treating an instrument with a Tonerite can accelerate the process of getting the best sound out of the instrument.  

If you don't intend to play an instrument at all, then of course it doesn't matter whether you treat it.  (Though if so, why own it in the first place?)  But I suspect that a lot of folks are in the situation I'm in:  I have much less time available to play music than I would like to have, and I want to make the most of the time I have available.  Slapping a Tonerite on to "wake up" the instrument before a session is, IMHO, a way to do that, even if the effect is only temporary.  And my experience with Tonerite treatments is that they seem to have a longer-lived effect [though I acknowledge that's a much more subjective and difficult to discern effect than a short-term effect].

I don't find your "electric drill" analogy particularly revealing.  There is such a thing as "wear and tear."  IMHO, drills don't get better with more use; they just wear out.  [Though I appreciate Big Joe's comment about watches and the need for lubrication.  And I understand that cars that sit for a long time without having the engines turned over and the tires moved can become worse, not better.]  A lot of people (including me) think that that is not the case with instruments:  that "playing in" can make an instrument [especially one made of solid woods] better (relative to what it would be without playing in), not worse.  You can disagree, of course, but I don't find the analogy helpful.

You also say:

"My perception is that for some there is an opinion that a potential lies within each instrument that begs to be let out which can only happen over time and with persistent play. My position is that the constructs produces the potential."

As I see it, we're not in disagreement here:  the way the instrument is made produces the POTENTIAL for an instrument to sound the best way it can sound.  The issue is:  how to release that potential?  How to get the best sound out of that particular instrument?  I don't know anyone who has posted here who disagrees that construction matters; that does not strike me as controversial.  But other things matter too.  Using different strings, or different picks, or different playing techniques, or a better setup, all affect the sound.  In my experience (and that of others), using a Tonerite treatment can too.   

My point about the ToneGard (or violin chin- and shoulder-rests) analogy was not to suggest that everyone use one.  They work for me.  I've demonstrated my ToneGard to dozens of players, and don't know anyone who tucks his/her instrument into his/her body who has not been able to see (and hear) the difference that using a ToneGard makes in such a situation.  You seem to be acknowledging that holding an instrument against the body results in "dampening" the volume and sound.  

I agree that a ToneGard doesn't do much if you hold your instrument away from your body (as you apparently do). but I personally like to tuck mine into my body.  I find I have more control that way. Again, YMMV.

Instead, my point was to address your "cello section" argument, that if a Tonerite treatment really worked, every cellist in a symphony would use one, and the fact that they don't means that it's a matter of "opinion" as to whether it has an effect or not.  But with any new product, it can take time before people get around to trying it.  I was an early adopter of a ToneGard, and over the years I see more and more people using them.   The fact that not all people do so, so that it doesn't do anything for their individual playing style, is a different question.  

IMHO, it's simply invalid to infer that, because many cellists do not use a Tonerite, that it's therefore a mere matter of subjective "opinion" as to whether a treatment can have an effect.

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## Chuck Naill

> nstead, my point was to address your "cello section" argument, that if a Tonerite treatment really worked, every cellist in a symphony would use one, and the fact that they don't means that it's a matter of "opinion" as to whether it has an effect or not. But with any new product, it can take time before people get around to trying it. I was an early adopter of a ToneGard, and over the years I see more and more people using them. The fact that not all people do so, so that it doesn't do anything for their individual playing style, is a different question.


I used the cellist example because apparently the idea behind a vibrating device such as the Tone Rite was a cellist. His reasoning was similar to yours in his desire to to keep his cello as if were played constantly or something to that affect. If all or most cellist had a similar opinion, I would think that the orchestra pits would be full of devices such as the Tone Rite. This is some background behind my comments. 

The opinion is not whether all cellist think the Tone Rite works but more does an instrument need to be played often to maintain its best tonal condition. Since I think that the constructs predict the tone and not play and age, such a device becomes counter intuitive. Whatever benefits would be derived would never equal construction metrics that allows the instrument to respond to the player. 

The drill analogy was to demonstrate how it sounds to me when you say that with 200 instruments and a day job you don't have time to play them all so you use a device. It just does not make sense to me why it matters, but I respect your opinion and am not saying what you think it invalid or incorrect. We should all do as we please.

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## EdSherry

Chuck:  you say:

"Since I think that the constructs predict the tone and not play and age, such a device becomes counter intuitive. Whatever benefits would be derived would never equal construction metrics that allows the instrument to respond to the player."

As I see it, the issue is whether tone/timbre/volume is affected by BOTH "construction" and "play," and not just by "construction" alone or by "play and age" alone.  IMHO, there is nothing "counterintuitive" about the idea that both matter, and there is nothing "counterintuitive" about the possibility that playing in (whether via 'usual' playing or via a Tonerite) can have a positive effect on sound (tone, timbre, volume).   You may personally believe that it doesn't happen.  But it's a long cry from saying "X doesn't happen" to "it's counterintuitive that X could happen."

Similarly, as I see it, it is not a matter of whether any "benefits [that] would be derived" from playing in an instrument (whether via a Tonerite treatment or otherwise) would be "equal" to "construction metrics," but whether a Tonerite treatment adds value (in the form of improvements to tone, timbre and volume) that exceeds the cost of the treatment. 

Expecting that a Tonerite treatment be "equal" in importance to "construction metrics" strikes me as a red herring.  

I would fully agree that it doesn't make sense to pay $150 for a device to treat one $300 instrument, or a $500 instrument, or a $800 instrument.  A $150 gadget used only with a single $1500 instrument would have to make more than a 10% difference to be worthwhile.  Whether such an improvement in sound is likely is debatable.  

But for me, that's not the relevant criterion. As I mentioned before, a $150 Tonerite used to treat 30-50 instruments costs $3-5/treatment (plus the cost of the electricity), less than the cost of a new set of strings.  Treating an $800 Eastman or a $2400 Horner or [your favorite example here] won't turn either into a $25,000 Gilchrist or a $250,000 Loar.   So what?  NO ONE (certainly not those who make or sell the Tonerite) has suggested that it will.  If a treatment adds as little as (say) 1% to the sound of a $800 instrument, as I see it that's worth $8, more than the $3-5 cost of the treatment.  In my experience, the effect is much more noticeable than 1%.  

To require a treatment costing $3-5 to be of "equal value" to the "construction metrics" that differentiate a $2400 instrument from an $800 instrument [or whatever comparison you want to make] in order to be worthwhile makes no sense to me, just as it doesn't make sense to me to require a $5 set of strings or a $5 pick (or a $30 pick) or a $50 setup to be of "equal value" with the "construction metric" differences in order to conclude that it makes sense to spend the time and money involved in finding the right setup, set of strings and pick choice for your particular instrument.

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## Chuck Naill

> In some odd way I kind of respect his refusal to be guided by evidence of any way.


It is equally odd when someone considers their opinions, subjective opinions at best, as the only ones which are evidenced based. 

I spent hundreds of dollars following the advice of some like I read here telling me what I needed to do to make my 1987 HD-28 sound like a pre war Martin. Dan Lashbrook was active around this time pushing fossilized ivory. Others where suggesting the latest bridge pin or duck tapping your martin to a large speaker for a week. I did it all with no results. 

Then I begin to ask and discuss why the old Martins preformed as they did. It occurred to me that if age were the reason, the Martins of the seventies had had enough time to change or open up as some like to say. What convinced me the most was the work by Brian Kimsey, the modifications that John Arnold did to my 2004 D-18GE, and the Martin D-18 Authentic. What I learned is that the constructs predict the tonal outcomes. In my mind, these opinions are more evidenced based than anything I have read to date from the supporters of vibrating devices designed to improve tonal outcomes. 

Hopefully no one is seriously considering the the innovators of the Tone Rite is similar to the work of a Lloyd Loar. What Loar did was to introduce an idea that allowed the top to resonate more freely. In my mind this is more similar to what I am saying about the effects of construction as a predictor of performance. However, I suppose we all see things a bit differently which is what I think Joe Vest is suggesting.

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## SternART

:Popcorn:

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## Chuck Naill

> As I see it, the issue is whether tone/timbre/volume is affected by BOTH "construction" and "play," and not just by "construction" alone or by "play and age" alone


My problem I have with thinking that playing time is a component of tonal improvement is that of those instruments that never got better that I owned it was not because they were not played. They were played and often. No amount of play will overcome heavy constructs IMO.

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## EdSherry

Chuck -- you say:

"of those instruments that never got better that I owned it was not because they were not played. They were played and often. No amount of play will overcome heavy constructs IMO."

Did you ever have any instruments that DID appear to you to get better [without making structural adjustments] over the time that you owned them?  [I know I have.]  If so, to what do you attribute that improvement?  

Focusing merely on the "failures" (instruments that did NOT get better over time) ignores ones that DID improve.

Moreover, I think that it's a red herring to compare the effect of a Tonerite treatment (which costs me $3-5/instrument) with the effect of a "construction" treatment, such as shaving braces or replacing the bridge plate on a guitar, which cost dramatically more.  You refer to "the work of Brian Kimsey" and "modifications" done on some of your guitars by John Arnold.  I strongly doubt that their work cost $3-5 per instrument treated.  

You clearly believe that such "modifications" can have an effect on tone/timbre/volume.  I agree.  Back in the early 1970s, I had Saterlee & Chapin (a long-defunct SF music store) replace the adjustable plastic "tone robber" bridge [remember those monstrosities?] on my 1950s Gibson LG-1 with a decent wooden bridge with a bone saddle.  Significant improvement.  But I'd bought the guitar for $100 from my cousin and spent something like $40 or $50 (I can't recall at this point, but it wasn't cheap) replacing the bridge.  

I remember the "craze" for shaving braces on 1960s and 1970s-era Martin guitars to make them sound more like the pre-war ones.  Back then, Martin wasn't offering new instruments with "pre-war specs" like they are now.  So your choice was (a) to try to find an old one, (b) put up with the heavy construction of the new ones, or (c) buy a new one and have it structurally treated.  My friend Frank Ford at Gryphon did a lot of those treatments back in the day.  

Again, most folks I've talked to think that shaving braces or replacing too-heavy bridge plates made an improvement.  But such treatments were costly -- less costly than trying to buy a pre-war instrument, but still pricey.  

IMHO, the GE and Authentic guitars Martin is turning out now clearly sound better than their more-heavily-braced modern counterparts -- but they cost a LOT more money!  I"m not saying that a $3-5 Tonerite treatment will make a regular D-18 sound like a GE or Authentic, but expecting that it would strikes me as simply unrealistic.

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## Rick Turner

Chuck, you keep framing your arguments in a strictly "either/or" manner.  In your world, it's either that instruments sound as they do only because of design (and materials?) or that many of us believe that vintage instrument sound good only because of age and vibration.  You've fallen into a very simplistic trap.

NONE of us here who are luthiers doubt that design, craft, and materials have a lot to do with the sound of an instrument, so just simply drop that part of your argument.  It's off the table for discussion.   Now consider that MOST of us who are luthiers and/or experienced players do believe that several components of age do in fact change the response characteristics of a stringed instrument ABOVE AND BEYOND the inherent build qualities that you are so hung up upon.  

Those components of age include, but may not be limited to:

1) Literal and scientifically proven loss of hemicellulose as wood ages.  This loss cuts weight faster than it harms stiffness and strength, and thus aged wood has a better stiffness to weight ratio than the same wood new.   

2) Hardening and crystallizing of resins in the wood, particularly spruce.

3) Off-gassing and hardening of finish, finish checking (?)

4) Vibration whether it be from playing or ???? over time which seems to make certain parts of the tops (and other components) more flexible

The strong empirical evidence here on this forum and elsewhere would indicate that #4, vibration, is an important component of the response change with age, and that accelerated aging is indeed possible.  

The most amusing thing, of course, is that the most vehement opponent/nay-sayer of the ToneRite is the one person who refuses to try the available device for accelerated aging of instruments.  

It's back to "I don't like broccoli"  "Have you ever tried it?"  "No, because I don't like it."
It doesn't hold up as an adult point of view.

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## Paul Hostetter



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## Rick Turner

We have met the enemy and he is us...

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## mtucker

The latest fretboard journal article with Dave Rawlings says he kind of feels he's played his old Epi so much over the last several years that it's acting/sounding loosey goosey - like its' a little played out and maybe needs readdressing bracing etc. Guess the point is that they do change over time, in this case, maybe not necessarily for the better..

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## D C Blood

I bought my Silverangel because it sounded wonderful the day I bought it.  I was very happy with the sound (and still am).  I guess many mandolin pickers (myself ilncluded) are kinda like NASCAR mechanics.  They like to tinker with any little thing that might make their racecars run a little better and a little faster, and we try to do the same things with our mandolins, things like Steve Smith Cumberland Acoustic bridges, fossil ivory bridge tops, Allen (and other cast) tailpieces, different strings, higher action and lower action, and yes...ToneRite vibrators...My mandolin was wonderful when I bought it (and still is), but I will always try new products and ideas that might make it better yet.  I think the ULTIMATE GOAL is to get to the poing when a banjo player comes up to a jam my mandolin is attending, he takes a listen, shakes his head, and puts his banjo back in the case, saying "I know when I'm whupped".

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## Chuck Naill

> Did you ever have any instruments that DID appear to you to get better [without making structural adjustments] over the time that you owned them? [I know I have.] If so, to what do you attribute that improvement?


I never had an instrument get better over time. The only thing that changed the tone was the temporary changes that came from changing the strings or in the case of the fiddles, having them expertly set up. 




> You refer to "the work of Brian Kimsey" and "modifications" done on some of your guitars by John Arnold. I strongly doubt that their work cost $3-5 per instrument treated.


I figure if I keep the D-18 for 30 years the modifications cost $10 per year. There is also no need to continually "treat" them over and over to maintain the affect. 




> IMHO, the GE and Authentic guitars Martin is turning out now clearly sound better than their more-heavily-braced modern counterparts -- but they cost a LOT more money! I"m not saying that a $3-5 Tonerite treatment will make a regular D-18 sound like a GE or Authentic, but expecting that it would strikes me as simply unrealistic.


What I think is the perception is that an new instrument be purchased and the consumer is not satisfied with the product. They go through a variety of products in order to achieve something that some call, "played in" or "opened up". It appears that some do not have a definition of that those parameters are, but they think they exist. Therefore, when a novice buys a new Martin D-18 and they are expecting it to sound like a pre war Martin the heard somewhere they become discouraged. I remember once a young man saved for years to get a Martin. When the guitar came in the mail he was so upset. I was upset for him. 

From what I read here, these subjective opinions are introduced by those that have something to gain. I am sure that dealers have sold some Tone Rites as the result of this thread. Some builders would like to keep the ball rolling so that when there customers complain they have something to fall back on. 

I play what my neighbors build. To date it has never occurred to me that my Horners, Arnolds, or Greens needed to open up. I bought the Martin D-18 GE used and played it three hours before I laid down the money. The reason that I had the modifications performed was because the bridge lifted, a common occurrence on new Martins. After hearing the results of Brian Kimsey's work on a mid 80's D-18, I asked John to perform the same and additional modifications. In my mind there is not a better sounding Martin around as my D-18GE old or new. It's been "Arnoldized"...LOL!!!!

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## Chuck Naill

> The most amusing thing, of course, is that the most vehement opponent/nay-sayer of the ToneRite is the one person who refuses to try the available device for accelerated aging of instruments.


The only instrument that I have that I would subject to being vibrated for days is an Eastman 504 that I got in 2005. The problem is that this little mandolin has a great sound and delivers what I am after. I am simply too concerned about long term damage. Once I get an instrument where I want and need it to be, I leave it alone. There is simply no motivation to use a Tone Rite at the expense of my custom made one of a kind instruments. Hopefully, this will resonate with other players. 

If someone wants to loan me their instrument and a Tone Rite, I will attempt to make an objective empirical evaluation.

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## EdSherry

Chuck -- you seem to be acknowledging that your structural treatments cost something on the order of $300/instrument ($10/year times 30 years).  In other words, you're willing to pay $300/instrument to make structural changes.  That may be due to a problem with the instrument (e.g., a bridge lifting up) not covered by the warranty (you say you bought your GE used), but some of it seems to be due to a desire to make the instrument sound better.

Your "$30/year" figure and my "$3-5/treatment" figure do not reflect an apples-to-apples comparison.  If I amortize the cost of a $3 Tonerite treatment over 30 years, that's 10 cents per year.  The incremental cost of a second or subsequent treatment of a given instrument (which is basically the cost of the electricity and the time involved in applying the Tonerite and taking it off after treatment is completed) is trivial.  

As for your suggestion that "these subjective opinions are introduced by those that have something to gain," that clearly is not true for me, or Big Joe, or any of a number of others who have posted on this Board.  I would agree that Teri's original (and subsequent) post(s) are, as she acknowledges, affected in part by the fact that she is selling the Tonerite.  But I'm not; I'm a user, not a vendor.  Big Joe has indicated that he's not likely to sell Tonerites any time soon; he too is a user, not a vendor.

You say:  "when a novice buys a new Martin D-18 and they are expecting it to sound like a pre war Martin the heard somewhere they become discouraged."  But anybody who expects a new D-18 (which sells for, say, $2,000) to "sound like a pre war Martin" (that goes for, say, $15,000) is deluding him/herself.  There's a reason why the GEs and Authentics sell for a significant price premium over the "basic" models.

I know that several people have offered to loan you a Tonerite so that you can do an evaluation on YOUR instruments.  Obviously, you're not willing to do so.  Asking people to loan you BOTH an instrument and a Tonerite seems to me to be asking for a bit much.  And I have no idea what kind of "objective empirical evaluation" that you're proposing to make that differs from the (admittedly subjective) assessments that many others (such as Big Joe and I) have made.

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## Willie Poole

After letting my mandolin get the "toneright" treatment for three days non stop I decided to see what if any changes occured, It was louder but I also found that it had gone out of tune, lower, and when I was playing it after retuning it to pitch I found I had to keep retuning every few songs.....Has anyone else had this happen to them.....Does the vibration to the wood make it change so much that the mandolin goes lower and then as you play it it gets more back to normal, I guess like shrinking and then going back to its original shape? This is a high quality mandolin not an "El Cheapo" that is about two years old, I will admit I was playing in an open garage and it was pretty hinid that day....Willie

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## Chuck Naill

> Chuck -- you seem to be acknowledging that your structural treatments cost something on the order of $300/instrument ($10/year times 30 years). In other words, you're willing to pay $300/instrument to make structural changes. That may be due to a problem with the instrument (e.g., a bridge lifting up) not covered by the warranty (you say you bought your GE used), but some of it seems to be due to a desire to make the instrument sound better.


Ed, 

I never stop learning. When I bought the GE I was under the impression that Martin had finally decided to return to its roots and build them as they did in the thirties. Unfortunately, I discovered that again Martin was better at its marketing speech than being factual about what it was producing. The GE is not constructed like those of the "golden era". They got better with the Authentic D-18 but had to compensate the price for potential warrantee work. 

I was not at all disappointed with the GE, but when the bridge lifted, I was motivated and so was John to do get as close as possible on an existing instrument. 




> As for your suggestion that "these subjective opinions are introduced by those that have something to gain," that clearly is not true for me, or Big Joe, or any of a number of others who have posted on this Board. I would agree that Teri's original (and subsequent) post(s) are, as she acknowledges, affected in part by the fact that she is selling the Tonerite. But I'm not; I'm a user, not a vendor. Big Joe has indicated that he's not likely to sell Tonerites any time soon; he too is a user, not a vendor.


I was not referring to you. Joe Vest said he had a relationship with those that make or distribute the product. His evaluation was not even close to evidence or a scientific yet their is a definite suggestion that something positive occurred and now he suggests that evidence exists. That's his prerogative to suggest, but I would not purchase the product based on his evaluations. 




> You say: "when a novice buys a new Martin D-18 and they are expecting it to sound like a pre war Martin the heard somewhere they become discouraged." But anybody who expects a new D-18 (which sells for, say, $2,000) to "sound like a pre war Martin" (that goes for, say, $15,000) is deluding him/herself. There's a reason why the GEs and Authentics sell for a significant price premium over the "basic" models.


The Authentic price reflects the potential cost of warrantee. This is directly from the owner, Mr. Martin. The GE reflects the use of materials and constructs, i.e. no "wings" and higher grade materials. However, I think you miss the point. A novice would not know what you and I know making their understanding not delusional, but more perhaps naive. 




> know that several people have offered to loan you a Tonerite so that you can do an evaluation on YOUR instruments. Obviously, you're not willing to do so. Asking people to loan you BOTH an instrument and a Tonerite seems to me to be asking for a bit much. And I have no idea what kind of "objective empirical evaluation" that you're proposing to make that differs from the (admittedly subjective) assessments that many others (such as Big Joe and I) have made.


If the offer is extended again, I will accept the offer. I have access to a 1970 D-35 that is rings like a brick. If the Tone Rite can improve the tone, I will gladly eat some crow for dinner.

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## EdSherry

Chuck -- Martin offers a warantee on ALL of its instruments to the original owner against "defects," so I'm a bit hard-pressed to understand why you believe that the price differential between a GE (or Authentic) and a "basic" D-18 is due to "compensat[ing] the price for potential warrantee work." 

You also say that Big Joe's "evaluation was not even close to evidence or a scientific [sic] yet their is a definite suggestion that something positive occurred and now he suggests that evidence exists." 

The "evidence" that Big Joe provided was his (admittedly subjective) evaluation of how a Tonerite treatment changed the tone/timbre/volume of the instruments he tested.  

You may choose not to believe that evidence, and that's your prerogative, but to suggest that it's "not even close to evidence" strikes me as imposing a VERY high standard for what you are willing to accept as "evidence."  

If you were an eyewitness [or earwitness] to something, your testimony about what you saw [heard] would constitute "evidence" in any court.  A judge or jury may choose not to believe you, or to credit some other testimony instead, but that doesn't make your statements about what you saw/heard not "evidence." 

You say you "would not purchase the [Tonerite] product based on his [Big Joe's] evaluations."  That's clearly your prerogative.  But that's not a basis for saying that there is no effect, or that it is "counterintuitive" that there could be an effect, or that there isn't "evidence" of an effect, or any of a number of the other statements you have previously made.

In an earlier post, you indicated that if you had a Tonerite, you would "attempt to make an objective empirical evaluation."  You're now proposing to do that with a 1970s D-35.  If all you're proposing to do is to treat the instrument and (subjectively) assess its tone/timbre/volume, that's at least a step forward.  

But in what way would any test that you performed be more "objective" than the one performed by Big Joe (or me, or others)?  In what way would any test that you performed be "scientific" if (as you seem to contend) Big Joe's testing was not?

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## Rick Turner

Chuck, that's a pretty damning statement you're making about Joe Vest. As a luthier, I find myself insulted for his sake by your dismissal of his thoughtful and very thorough empirical testing of the device on several instruments.  

So now you want scientific evidence?  Tell us just what kind of scientific test you'd propose, and perhaps someone here can set that up.  Of course it would have to be truly scientific, which means that the instrument could not be played by human hands.  What do you have in mind?  Or was that just a catty remark to disparage Joe?

Joe's tests are pretty much what anybody reasonable would accept as evidence.  Perhaps he even went farther.

Do you evaluate the instruments you choose by ear or science?  How do you know that the "improvements" you've paid for actually work?  Do you scientifically test your luthier's work?

This whole thing boils down to subjectivity, and some of us are better at that than others, and I think you'd find that among luthiers and players, there actually is a lot of agreement on what instruments sound good, and which sound even better.  The science is way behind in this field, though there are some who are on the path.

I'll ask my friend Al Carruth about testing a ToneRite "scientifically".  Al is a really fine guitar builder, traditionally trained, and yet he's also at the very forefront of "scientific" understanding of tone.   Look him up.  I've got a guitar ToneRite that I'll gladly send him.  He could do before and after Chladni testing of a top to see what happens.

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## Chuck Naill

> Chuck -- Martin offers a warantee on ALL of its instruments to the original owner against "defects," so I'm a bit hard-pressed to understand why you believe that the price differential between a GE (or Authentic) and a "basic" D-18 is due to "compensat[ing] the price for potential warrantee work."


Ed, 

This should explain, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7UtKDmtDu0 but if it does not, the Authentic lacks an adjustible truss rod and a "popsicle" brace.




> You also say that Big Joe's "evaluation was not even close to evidence or a scientific [sic] yet their is a definite suggestion that something positive occurred and now he suggests that evidence exists." The "evidence" that Big Joe provided was his (admittedly subjective) evaluation of how a Tonerite treatment changed the tone/timbre/volume of the instruments he tested. You may choose not to believe that "evidence," and that's your prerogative, but to suggest that it's not "evidence" strikes me as imposing a VERY high standard for what is "evidence."


I may not choose to believe what Joe thinks he heard, but I am not ignoring evidence.  There is nothing about his evaluations that can be considered anything other than opinion. If Joe had taken the time to document the changes with recordings we might not be having this discussion. 

To use your court room analogy, a person is not convicted on the basis of what someone thought they heard or saw. It would be simple to tear his testimony apart based on a number of factors. There would have to be a recording or some other verifiable basis for proving something positive occurred as a result of using the device in question. 

There is also the assumption that something positive occurred with Joe's evaluations. A set of measurable  criteria would first need to be established prior to making recordings so that if something did change we would all agree that it fit the definition of positive.

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## EdSherry

Chuck:  thanks for the link to Chris Martin's video.  I hadn't been aware of that info.  But I suspect that the bulk of the price differential is driven not so much by the cost of warranty work (though Chris clearly acknowledges that is some of it), so much as it is by the greater amount of effort and the higher-quality materials that goes into making a GE/Authentic relative to a "basic" D-18.  [Also, Chris' comments apply to the Authentic, not the GE.]

You assert that "a person is not convicted on the basis of what someone thought they heard or saw."  Oh, really?  People are convicted all the time based on eyewitness testimony.  Sometimes that testimony turns out to be mistaken.  All people can do is report what they "thought they heard or saw."  

The rules of evidence do not require that there be "a recording or some other verifiable basis" before testimony is accepted or relied on.  An eyewitness is not a "recording" and eyewitness testimony is not "verifiable" in the sense you seem to be using the term.  That's what cross-examination is for.  

You contend that "It would be simple to tear [Big Joe's] testimony apart based on a number of factors."  Such as?  What "factors" do you believe would enable a cross-examiner to "tear apart" Big Joe's testimony, or would cause a reasonable jury to "tear apart" what Big Joe reported?

You contend that "There is nothing about his evaluations that can be considered anything other than opinion."  I suspect that depends on what you mean by "opinion."  He is reporting his (admittedly subjective) assessment of tone/timbre/volume which in turn is BASED on his empirical testing of a Tonerite, done by an individual who was an admitted skeptic who "ate crow" when he tested it.  If you want to call that "opinion," it's a far cry from the sort of "opinion" that is untethered by empirical testing.  

You are suggesting that "a set of measurable criteria would first need to be established prior to making recordings."  Is that what you are proposing to do with your test of a Tonerite on the 1970s D-35 that you're proposing to conduct an "objective empirical test" on?  Pray tell, what "set of measurable criteria" have you "established" that you believe "we would all agree [would] fit the definition of positive"? 

Getting "recordings" to document "before-and-after" differences is a big task, as many folks have indicated.  Picking or strumming an instrument in the usual way is difficult to replicate precisely, which is why people have been suggesting some sort of mechanical strummer to take the "human" element out of consideration.  But in my experience, what people care about is how the instrument is played in a normal fashion, not some "mechanized strumming" sound.

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## Chuck Naill

> Chuck, that's a pretty damning statement you're making about Joe Vest. As a luthier, I find myself insulted for his sake by your dismissal of his thoughtful and very thorough empirical testing of the device on several instruments.


Rick, 

You should really stop taking this so personal. It an danged consumer product of heavens sake. It's like getting upset because someone likes Chevys over Fords. Just discuss the subject and ease up on the ego for a while. Both you and Joe have made personal comments about me and you don't see me whining about it do you? 

For an evaluation to be done which would yield usable data you would first need to establish a definition for an opened up instrument using tonal qualities and perhaps volume, headroom, etc. Next you would need to develop a capacity for measuring any changes using recordings. 

The problem with Joe's evaluations is he did not set up any criteria nor did he give him self a way to measure any possible changes. In my opinion he proved nothing except to himself. He certainly did not establish any evidence. This is his fault not mine. This is also nothing disrespectful toward him. I like Joe and I am sure I would like you, but facts are facts. I don't believe people because they happen to be nice. They must furnish a reason or evidence. This is exactly what Brian Kimsey did and why I trust his work.

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## Chuck Naill

> You are suggesting that "a set of measurable criteria would first need to be established prior to making recordings." Is that what you are proposing to do with your test of a Tonerite on the 1970s D-35 you're proposing to conduct an "objective empirical test" on? Pray tell, what "set of measurable criteria" have you "established" that you believe "we would all agree [would] fit the definition of positive"?


There would have to be consensus established on what an open instrument consists of tonally. One person cannot do that as I  discovered when Paul explained that not everyone considers a pre war Martin as the benchmark as I do. We would have to agree on several measurements. 

There would have to be a way to measure the results. Perhaps some recording would suffice. 




> etting "recordings" to document "before-and-after" differences is a big task, as many folks have indicated. Picking or strumming an instrument in the usual way is difficult to replicate precisely, which is why people have been suggesting some sort of mechanical strummer to take the "human" element out of consideration. But in my experience, what people care about is how the instrument is played in a normal fashion, not some "mechanized strumming" sound.


Yes, research is work but at the end of the day you have something useable that is not just somebody's opinion. As I wrote in reply to Rick, Brian Kimsey has documented his work with before and after recordings. I have also played instruments that he has worked on and what I note is increased sustain and projection which translates into being able to pick lightly and still be heard.

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## EdSherry

Chuck:  if you're right that there is no "consensus" way to set up "objective criteria" or "measurements" that everyone agrees would constitute a way to measure what constitues an "improvement," then IMHO your proposed "objective empirical test" will be no more "objective" than Big Joe's.  

If you conduct a test on a particular instrument, it might persuade YOU individually in a way that Big Joe's reporting of his results has not -- a kind of "I tried and I think it worked, at least on this particular instrument" approach.  How is that any more "scientific" or "objective" or "evidence" than what Big Joe reported?  

As for your response to Rick, I don't want to put words into Rick's mouth, but I had the same reaction he did:  namely, that your claiming that Big Joe's detailed reporting of what he found was "not even close to evidence" was an insult to Big Joe.  

As for your "Ford vs. Chevy" analogy:  there are objective criteria for comparing certain aspects of automobiles and their performance (e.g., horsepower, acceleration, braking, legroom, trunk space).  There are other aspects (such as "handling" or "comfort" or "ease of use" of things like dashboard layout) that are more difficult to measure "objectively".  But the auto magazines spend a lot of time and devote a lot of space to reporting their evaluations of such matters.  The more you insist that any evaluation has to have "measurable" criteria that have to be "objective" and "scientific," the less attention one pays to such difficulty-to-quantify but clearly-important matters.

Big Joe didn't simply report an "opinion" of the form "I like it."  He described in detail what he was hearing in terms of tone/timbre/volume as the test went along.  That's a far cry from saying "I like Fords" or "I like Chevys."  Again, you are free to discount what Big Joe reported; but that doesn't make it "not even close to evidence" or barefaced "opinion" not backed up by empirical investigation.

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## Rick Turner

Chuck, I do not take this personally other than to suggest that you are blowing smoke up everyones' shorts here.

You still, post after post, will not answer some basic questions, so here goes, and please answer.

1) Do you believe that instruments change in tone, volume, and/or responsiveness over time?

2) If you say "yes" to the above, do you think it is possible or probable that some of those changes happen from string vibration?

If you're not willing to go on record with the above, you're simply a hopeless case and there's absolutely no sense for any of us to continue in dialog with you on this subject.

There are a number of guitarists on other forums who steadfastly refuse to believe that guitars change at all with age.  I just want to know if you're in that camp with regard to mandolins.

As for the Martin Authentics, I have had the pleasure of playing a D-18 Authentic at the Martin factory, and then having lunch with Chris, Dick Boak, Tim Teel (in R&D and who had a lot to do with these).   Tim believes that the use of very original materials...Honduras mahogany, ebony 'board, "Adirondack" Red spruce, and particularly hot hide glue...in addition to "pre war" specs on thickness and brace carving...are what make these guitars good.   And that D-18 was indeed one of the four or five best dreads I ever played...of any age.  Killer guitar, would love to own it.  Don't care if it needs a reset in a few years.  Wouldn't care if the bridge pulled off.  Fix it and play it.   Oh, and give it a ToneRite treatment!

Martin is pulled by the issue of having the most liberal warranty of any major guitar company.   I know.  I used to do Martin warranty service, and in 1990 did some Martin-paid-for work on a '53 000-18 owned by the original buyer.  Of course it needed a lot of non-warranty work, too!

But Chuck, you keep squirreling away from a key issue as stated above.  Do you or do you not believe in A) the opening up phenomenon, and/or B) the "going to sleep and waking up" theory?

A simple yes or no to A and B will suffice, thank you...

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## Keith Newell

See Joe, this is why I stopped posting on this topic. It's like if you brewed beer and every one of your hundreds of friends liked it and wanted to buy it. But, you have a few friends jealous of your success that never have brewed beer and probably prefer wine but hang out with the beer guys just so they have someone to talk to about something. They know that you are successful for a reason but they have no experience in brewing, tasting or the technical lingo of the craft so they want scientific evidence that your beer is better, meanwhile everyone around them at the party is having a good time and is willing to enlighten them, they still wear the sour face and talk because that's why they are there...to talk for talks sake.
Keith Newell
(make an appointment for the next batch of mandolins, rent a room and come by once a day for a week and see for yourself...it's your money. In fact I will supply the beer  :Laughing:   :Popcorn:

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## Chuck Naill

> Chuck, I do not take this personally other than to suggest that you are blowing smoke up everyones' shorts here.


And your're being critical of me for being disrespectful. 





> You still, post after post, will not answer some basic questions, so here goes, and please answer.
> 
> 1) Do you believe that instruments change in tone, volume, and/or responsiveness over time?
> 
> 2) If you say "yes" to the above, do you think it is possible or probable that some of those changes happen from string vibration?


I answered this before, but I will oblige. I do not believe that instruments change over time from my experience. 




> As for the Martin Authentics, I have had the pleasure of playing a D-18 Authentic at the Martin factory, and then having lunch with Chris, Dick Boak, Tim Teel (in R&D and who had a lot to do with these). Tim believes that the use of very original materials...Honduras mahogany, ebony 'board, "Adirondack" Red spruce, and particularly hot hide glue...in addition to "pre war" specs on thickness and brace carving...are what make these guitars good. And that D-18 was indeed one of the four or five best dreads I ever played...of any age. Killer guitar, would love to own it. Don't care if it needs a reset in a few years. Wouldn't care if the bridge pulled off. Fix it and play it. Oh, and give it a ToneRite treatment!


Why would you give it a Tone Rite treatment. I find this incredible. 

The GE and Authentic are sourced with the same materials. Rick! So why the difference in your mind. 

Have you researched the difference between the GE and Authentic. Both are plain jane mahogony/red spruce guitars. Look inside at the amount and size of the braces for the answer. Also, the Authentic is not truly authentic. Listen to the video link for what Mr. Martin said regarding how possible repairs dictated the price. I am not worried about repairs either, but I have easy access to a world class luthier. Most do not.




> But Chuck, you keep squirreling away from a key issue as stated above. Do you or do you not believe in A) the opening up phenomenon, and/or B) the "going to sleep and waking up" theory?
> 
> A simple yes or no to A and B will suffice, thank you...


Please give the condescending retoric a break Rick.

I do not believe in the opening up theory. From what I read this theory assumes that at some point in time a positive transition occurs irrespective of strings and set up, but with the wood itself. I will allow this, if it does occur, I do not think it is significant enough that a player will become satisfied with the guitar if they were not initially. 

Additionally, I do not think there is a consensus of what "opening up" means. I started a thread here and the definitions were not consistent. 

My definition of an open instrument are ones that resonate noticeably, project regardless of effort, have sustain, notes are fat both trebles and bass, not metallic but woody, bright sounding regardless of wood. They have a striking brilliance causing them to stand out in a crowd of other products. In my mind, a Tone Rite, fossilized bridge pins, Cumberland Acoustic bridges, ivory nuts, new strings, cannot produce these results. In my opinion the genius is in the hands of the luthiers and the qualities of the wood they decide to use.

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## Chuck Naill

Or it could be that they like beer, have made beer, and just don't like yours. It's best not to assume. 

I have noticed that some think because they are builders they just know more. Their posts are condescending at best. These are folks with long waiting lists I suppose who do not need to be concerned by how they speak in public.

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## Ted Eschliman

Enough flaming and personal sparring. Time to put this thread to bed.
As you were.

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