# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Being a beginner at a jam...

## sarai

I have a few questions.  Hopefully you aren't tired of my questions yet.

1.) How do I fit in as a beginner? Without getting on the nerves of those who have a hard time tolerating beginners?  Because I've seen them sleuthing even on this site mentioning their intolerance of beginners.

2.) What are some songs that are good to learn (male or female vocal or instrumental) that are played often at jams.  It would be prudent of me to learn the most popular songs because at this point my goal is pretty much to follow along with the chords.  And I'd rather review as many as possible ahead of time.  (I am already building a repretoire but more is good)

3.) In the event that I may try to take the singing lead on something I am slowly building a repretoire of lady songs mainly from Rhonda Vincent, AKUS, Cox Family.  It seems like the jams I have been to so far, no one new these tunes.  Are there any lady songs that are well known? I'd rather not have the entire responsibility for carrying the song yet - and learn something that others might know.

4.) Other ettiquette tips?



My current repretoire...

Fiddle Tunes
- Salt Creek
- Blackberry BLossom
- Cripple Creek
- Traveler
- Roanoke (well, trying, long way to go)

Lyrical lady songs that I sing
- Kentucky Borderline (Rhonda Vincent)
- Is the Grass Any Bluer (Rhonda Vincent)
- Lonesome Wind Blues (Rhonda Vincent)
- Jolene (Dolly, Rhonda Vincent) , I play on guitar usually
- Everytime You Say GOodbye (AKUS)
- Ghost In This House (AKUS), I play on guitar usually
- Atlanta (AKUS) mainly play this on guitar
- Standing By the Bedside of a Neighbor (Cox Family)
- Everybody Wants to Go To Heaven (AKUS & Cox Family) mainly play this on guitar
- Black & White (Cherryholmes)
- How Long (Cherryholmes)

Man Songs (learned because someone I know sings this at some jams)
- Bad Day in Akron (Don Rigsby)
- Big Spike Hammer (Osborne Brothers)
- Fair & Tender Ladies (Osborne Brothers)
- Nellie Kane (Hotrize)
- Teardrops in my eyes (The Grascals)

Keep in mind - most of these lyrical songs I couldn't pick lead on yet, I just play rhythm and sing melody or sing harmony for the guy songs.  ALl the fiddle tunes I can pick.

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LM_in_KY

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## CeeCee_C

Great question, Sarai!

I have had a number of opportunities to attend jams and have gotten cold feet each time and ended up staying home. 

While I'm sure that the best solution would be for me to just go once and listen, I'm extremely shy in new situations and haven't done so.

I'm looking forward to some responses.

Thanks for putting the question out there.

CeeCee
Oakdale, CT

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sarai

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## sarai

I think I posted in the wrong topic though - I wonder if an admin can move it!? oops.

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## Bertram Henze

One of the main purposes of life is to approach the monstrous shadows looming above us and find out they are cast by tiny plastic action figures.
- going there and sitting with your instrument, maybe hardly playing at all, and listening a lot is better than not going,
- playing a little quiet background chop is better than not to play at all,
- accepting the nod on the only tune you can play melody on and playing it as a solo is better than 100% chopping,
....and so on; there is no big bang. Allow yourself to develop, and other players will allow it, too.

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sarai

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## pickloser

Excellent!  IME no one is more welcome at a jam than a new singer.  You might learn Little Cabin Home on the Hill (and just about any other Cabin song, like Blueridge Cabin Home), I Wonder Where You Are Tonigt, Love Please Come Home, When My Blue Moon Turns to Gold, On and On, Lonesome Road Blues, just about any 3 chord song.  Most regulars will know them.  But you already have some songs that can be easily called, if you just know your key, provide some info, and know how to kick it off at the tempo you like.   For example, not everyone may know Ky Borderline, but iirc that's a 3 chord song.  You could scope out the alpha banjo picker, and if he or she knows it ask him to kick it off for you, and that's all that will be necessary.  If no one looks likely, then stand in the circle chopping and looking bashful, but hopeful.  When you get asked to sing one, call out your song, say the key, say it's "1, 4, 5" or 3 chords in A, or whatever, kick it off like you know what you're doing, and sing with enthusiasm.  Try to signal the changes to the 4 chord with a strong 17 chop.  Have another song to sing when it comes back to you.  Once you get your feet wet at this kind of thing (and it is REALLY FUN) try to learn songs in various keys.  At many jams, the players like to do a bunch of tunes/songs in G/C and then put the cheaters on and move up to A/D.  They'll move it on up to B, after tiring of A/D, upon request.  

Oh yeah...be sure and dole out breaks after each chorus.  If there are lots who want to take a lead, then run 'em together.  Make eye contact and raise your eyebrows, and the potential break taker will either give you a nod or shake it off.  Look around for people looking eager or hopeful.  It's not hard, once you've done it a few times.  

Another oh yeah...the fiddle tunes are gonna be problematic, if you don't have the speed yet.  If you call Salt Creek and kick it off at your speed, there may be looks of dismay, and if you let someone else kick it off, then you will not be able to keep up.  And, imo, you're never going to get a random group to play Everytime You Say Goodbye.  Many of the tunes you listed are better suited for a small jam of folks you know or who are interested on working on some songs/tunes, rather than an open jam.  

It really is fun.  Enjoy!

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## sarai

> One of the main purposes of life is to approach the monstrous shadows looming above us and find out they are cast by tiny plastic action figures.
>  - going there and sitting with your instrument, maybe hardly playing at all, and listening a lot is better than not going,
>  - playing a little quiet background chop is better than not to play at all,
>  - accepting the nod on the only tune you can play melody on and playing it as a solo is better than 100% chopping,
>  ....and so on; there is no big bang. Allow yourself to develop, and other players will allow it, too.


Noted - good advice




> no one is more welcome at a jam than a new singer


Sweet - trouble is singing songs they will know.  But if I can learn the man-songs I can sing harmonies to about anything which I enjoy.




> You might learn Little Cabin Home on the Hill (and just about any other Cabin song, like Blueridge Cabin Home), I Wonder Where You Are Tonigt, Love Please Come Home, When My Blue Moon Turns to Gold, On and On, Lonesome Road Blues


Thank you - I will likely review these and download.  Actually I think I have I wonder where you are tonight already in my bill monroe anthology.  Maybe a few others too.




> At many jams, the players like to do a bunch of tunes/songs in G/C and then put the cheaters on and move up to A/D. They'll move it on up to B, after tiring of A/D, upon request.


This is a good tip.  I started to pick up on this at the last Jam I went to but this explains it better.  And I can prepare better - knowing that and not ask for a song in some random key that they haven't started jamming in yet.




> And, imo, you're never going to get a random group to play Everytime You Say Goodbye. Many of the tunes you listed are better suited for a small jam of folks you know or who are interested on working on some songs/tunes, rather than an open jam.


I was afraid of that - I tend to be drawn to songs with more complicated chord structures sometimes too which makes things more difficult.

Any more standards I should consider from anyone?  These tips are all great too - T H A N K Y O U

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## John Duncan

> I was afraid of that - I tend to be drawn to songs with more complicated chord structures sometimes too which makes things more difficult.


I wouldn't worry about that too much. Just have your mental divisions of " ok I am learning this song to be able to jam" and " I am learning this song for my own personal enjoyment/education".

Also, the songs being called will depend on the jam you go to. Learning standards are a part of it but, there will be regional standards as well. Just going to a jam is huge for your personal development. If you can go to a regular jam that is huge too. 

When I was just beginning on the mandolin, I would take my mando to jams and only play rhythm and maybe sing. You will learn a lot about rhythm that way. Buddy up to the bass player and figure out how you can make a rhythm section.

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sarai

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## sarai

> figure out how you can make a rhythm section.


 What do you mean? Like buddying up at the event? Or am I overthinking this?

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## John Duncan

Just relating what I do at jams. I seek out the bass player or guitar player and stand next to them. I listen to how or where they are playing on the 1 and 3 beats. If they are pushing beat, I will chop right in the center of the beat to compliment the song. Likewise, if they are playing in the center of the beat then I can push a little. If they increase in volume at certain dynamic points, I'll back off so the song doesn't get sloppy. 
These are all things you'll figure out as you attend jams more frequently and play with more ppl and in different situations. So much of it, imho, is listening to others and figuring out how to make them sound the best.

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LM_in_KY, 

sarai

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## sarai

jhduncan - gotcha - copy
This make sense.

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## onassis

Pete Wernick has a great list of popular BG jam tunes on his website
http://www.drbanjo.com/pdf/bluegrass-jam-favorites.pdf

I'd pick a few, give 'em a listen on Spotify or some such, and then learn the ones that catch your fancy. Chordally, they'll all be pretty simple. Lyrics are usually pretty straight forward as well.

Also, I would advise not limiting yourself to "lady songs". I've yet to meet anyone who was concerned about gender-matching singer and lyrics. Or, you could subtly switch any identifying words (he/she, his/hers).

If I were you, I'd dive right in. You already show the two most important traits - 1) a desire to learn, and 2) a willingness to fit in. The ones who cause problems more typically want it to be about them, instead of the whole-jam experience. I think you'll do fine.

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sarai

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## Alex M

I agree with Mitch, don't worry about only singing lady songs. Especially in folk & bluegrass there's a long tradition (very prevalent in the Carter Family) of a woman singing a song that's written from a man's perspective.

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sarai

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## greg_tsam

Lyrical Lady songs and Man songs.  hahaha...   :Laughing:   Good one.  You probably weren't trying to be funny but I thought it was..  No one has said this yet but try searching this forum for answers to your questions in addition posting here.  We'll answer your posts _happily_ but there are so many other posts you can benefit from if you get familiar with the search function.

Like "top songs in a jam" or "beginner at a jam" or "jam etiquette".  That last one will yield really cool research material with lots of opinionated answers.

Here's over 8 pages of threads on etiquette.  http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/se...archid=2543977

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LM_in_KY, 

sarai

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## Cindy

I sat in on a jam for more than a year before I figured out how to lead a song successfully, but once I did, it has become easy to add more songs and very much fun! 
What I learned:
1) Learn a simple song you love love love, 3 chords, 3 verses, and play it a million times at home, singing loud loud loud. It doesn't have to be a song that everyone/anyone knows but it helps a lot if it's a song with wide intrinsic appeal. I once practiced a song I loved (Don't Neglect the Rose) and after singing it a million times I decided, yuck, that's just too sappy. I have adapted man songs myself, though I think there are already a plenty man songs sung, especially those equating horses or dogs with women, like that stupid Sioux City Sue. You could even do a simple Beatles tune for starters, which would be fun with a bluegrass slant. Not that I've tried that. Just an idea.
2) Sit close to a good player, a leader. All jams have a them. If he/she can follow you there's better chance the rest of the group can. Enlist this person as a buddy if you can.
3) Be big. Sit up and forward and be loud. My jam is usually dominated by guys, very generous bunch, but sometimes it is hard for them to "see" women (crazy, I know). (I learned from being in a male-dominated career: Take up space!)
Carry on!

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sarai

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## sarai

> Lyrical Lady songs and Man songs. hahaha...


hehe yeah it was a little tongue-in-cheek.




> but there are so many other posts you can benefit from if you get familiar with the search function.


  I did read through some of those, didn't see the exact info I was looking for but likely I missed some or something.  I did a search on etiquette but I think I spelled it wrong, ha.  I'll have to read through more.




> I agree with Mitch, don't worry about only singing lady songs. Especially in folk & bluegrass there's a long tradition (very prevalent in the Carter Family) of a woman singing a song that's written from a man's perspective.


Duly noted... I worry I'll be bothersome by changing the keys but I guess most would be able to adapt to fairly standard songs quite easily.




> You already show the two most important traits - 1) a desire to learn, and 2) a willingness to fit in.


Well thank you  :Smile: 

Miss Gimke - thanks particularly for your perspective.  I wish I new more ladies in bluegrass.

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## Mike Bunting

> Duly noted... I worry I'll be bothersome by changing the keys but I guess most would be able to adapt to fairly standard songs quite easily.


The key of a song should always be the key that suits the voice of the singer. I don't understand where people get the notion that a given song has a given key. Sing your song where it is comfortable for you.

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sarai

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## Bill Baldridge

Lots of good feedback to consider, and as you can read, there is no one answer.  My experience is that most jams are by nature pretty conservative.  By that I mean that if it is a regular jam there is often almost a set of songs that the group plays on a regular basis.  If you want to fit into that group, you best learn their set of songs.  If it is a jam of people who essentially don't know each other, the group will either find a level of playing that includes everyone or people begin to drift off to find something that better suits their needs.  If you approach what looks to be a jam and they all lock their knees together, you have probably found a group of people who play together elsewhere as well and they are more interested in an audience than having a newcomer, especially a beginner mess up their "groove".  I have found that most people in a jam, with a few blessed exceptions, don't enjoy playing songs in public they can't play very well, so be careful before introducing your own composition or non-stand tunes with unpredictable chord changes, pauses, mid-song key changes, etc.  My advice is, if they are open to you, to always jump into a jam of players who are better than you. Good players can carry you and your song, even if you can't.

Have fun, or why do it?

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sarai

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## sarai

> Good players can carry you and your song, even if you can't.


Thank you  :Smile:  I'm banking on this... ha I can carry myself at home but I tend to freeze up in front of everyone and do everything wrong.

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## JeffD

> 1.) How do I fit in as a beginner? Without getting on the nerves of those who have a hard time tolerating beginners?  Because I've seen them sleuthing even on this site mentioning their intolerance of beginners.


Go and listen. Just listen. pick up on how things go - is there a leader, do they take turns on leading, is it orthodox to BG or not, or what ever genre it is, just listen.  Musicians love to be heard.  

You have to consider the whole thought - its intolerance of beginners who want the pre-existing, long standing, been playing together for ever jam to change or do a whole bunch of things for their sake.  As long as you see it as you are trying to fit into their jam, things will be fine.

A jam buddy of mine, a very gentle soul, once gave this sound advice - "Be the bunny, all ears and a tiny mouth, not the alligator, all mouth and no ears at all."

Be the bunny.




> 2.) What are some songs that are good to learn (male or female vocal or instrumental) that are played often at jams.  It would be prudent of me to learn the most popular songs because at this point my goal is pretty much to follow along with the chords.  And I'd rather review as many as possible ahead of time.  (I am already building a repretoire but more is good)


The very best way to get this information is to listen at the jam. I used to take notes on index cards. Also after the jam meet up with folks and ask about what tunes, or tune books, or lists of tunes they might use. There may be a tune list for that particular jam. Listen and learn.





> 3.) In the event that I may try to take the singing lead on something I am slowly building a repretoire of lady songs mainly from Rhonda Vincent, AKUS, Cox Family.  It seems like the jams I have been to so far, no one new these tunes.  Are there any lady songs that are well known? I'd rather not have the entire responsibility for carrying the song yet - and learn something that others might know.


At least at the beginning, I would try and follow what ever tunes they do. If you are invited to lead a tune or song, at first I would pick one you have heard at previous sessions that nobody has done yet. Once you are a regular, you can bring in the stuff you want to do. Remember, the jam is about playing together, not showing them how you can play. (My opinion.)





> 4.) Other ettiquette tips?


Be the bunny.

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Marty Henrickson, 

sarai

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## Marcelyn

One thing I used to do was take a little recording device to the jam so I could practice the tunes later at home. At first, it will seem like an impossibel feat to learn all the songs that come up, but in a few weeks, you'll start getting a handle on the favorites, and in a few months, you'll know most of the jam member's regular tunes. 
If you want to learn the standards, I'd download a bunch of Stanley Brothers, Monroe, Doc Watson, etc.
If you try out one of your songs, you'll be able to gage pretty easily whether it's a keeper. someone will probably ask you to do that one again if it fit the group well. Soon, you'll have your own set of regular tunes that newcomers to the jam are requesting, recording, and practicing at home.
Oh, and I was really surprised to see how affordable it is to pull together a library of the standards. Especially the Stanley Brothers--the compilations I got have nearly 100 tunes and were around the cost of one CD.

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sarai

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## CeeCee_C

Thanks, all - 

Good advice, though it'd be tough to apply all of it at one time. 

First things first. There's a BG jam every other Tuesday night. I'll be there next time; with my mando. 

If I don't bring my instrument I can't play.

If I don't go, I can't learn.

Maybe people have some suggestions about the "choke" factor? I can practice a tune at home until I've got it down really well, but then I play it in front of someone else... 

There's a piece of advice about relaxing when speaking in public; imagine your audience in their underwear (or less). That's not really my style, though. 

I'd be interested in knowing how others with stage fright managed and overcame it.

Apropos of nothing, since I could just as easily look it up, is underwear the plural of underwear? :-)

CeeCee

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## Mike Snyder

Choking on lyrics and crashing a mandolin lead are part of jamming. Nobody who jams is immune to the scary parts, at least early on. Learn a couple of songs that are universal bluegrass standards and have easy lyrics. Some jams are more welcoming than others. I usually do not stay around if I'm getting the stinkeye, but sometimes I do, and I ALWAYS feel better about it when I stick with it. There's someone at that jam who will be supportive. You're very fortunate to have the opportunity to jam so frequently. I'm lucky to do one a month, and although bluegrass really isn't my thing these days, I gladly drive 1 1/2 hour or more,one way, to jam  with 'grassers. That's covering the corners of four states. Old-time and ITM are more scarce, but more beloved.

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## JeffD

I have been jamming for many years. Not so much bluegrass, but old time and fiddle tunes and Irish traditional etc. etc. and I am still not over the stage fright.

The difference between fright and excitement is nonexistant. It just depends on the outcome you are visualizing. If you are visualizing a crash and burn you feel fright. And if you visualize applause and acceptance and smiles all around you will feel excitement, and it feels exactly the same.

I would not want to lose one bit of the excitement I feel walking into a jam with some special technique to get rid of stage fright. Bring it on, I want the full measure, the full rush. 

And it generally goes well.

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## jackmalonis

> Oh, and I was really surprised to see how affordable it is to pull together a library of the standards. Especially the Stanley Brothers--the compilations I got have nearly 100 tunes and were around the cost of one CD.


Where did you find the compilations? I'm basically in the same situation as Sarai here.

I'm the new guy looking to play at some jams in Austin, and I'm plenty comfortable improvising, but not very well versed as far as bluegrass standards go...

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## Ivan Kelsall

Intolerance of beginers at a jam session is something i find absurd. ALL the players were beginers once & most likely had been 'tolerated' at some point & should be considerate of others in their turn. *Sari* - for my part,looking at your repertoir,i wish you were 3000 miles closer. I used to freeze when it came to jamming when i got started on banjo,& any intolerance by others would have made me pack up & leave.Fortunately in the UK,there weren't that many (if any) at that time (mid '60'),who could play any better than me,so mostly i was ok. I think the best strategy is to stand back & watch what's going on for a while,don't dive in with both feet.See what comes up & think about what YOU can add in terms of singing a song.If it's a regular jam session,get a feel for the style of the music they're playing ie. - is it all Bluegrass,or is there some Newgrass/Folk/Old Timey music going on as well. As a singer,you should be well appreciated IMHO. There's lots of pickers who don't sing - that's a true gift on it's own,
      Ivan

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sarai

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## Marcelyn

Jack, I got those off of Google Music. The ones I purchased were called Selected Sides and Selected Cuts I think. They were each 4 disk compilations.

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## sarai

> Choking on lyrics and crashing a mandolin lead are part of jamming


  Thank goodness... Lord knows I choke.  Trying to work on my lyric memorization.




> Be the bunny.


 Good advice..... a bunny suits me.  I just like being around the music... I could sit all night and not play a thing and just soak it all in.  The few jams I did go to I sort of waited til I was invited.

But all good advice here.... There are a few things that will help me not feel so out of place.

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## AlanN

> The key of a song should always be the key that suits the voice of the singer. I don't understand where people get the notion that a given song has a given key. Sing your song where it is comfortable for you.


I agree with this, to a point. Nothing worse than the lead singer struggling to be on pitch. Yet, certain songs work best in a certain key. Thinking of B chord, where there is clearly a vibe that goes along with that key. Tunes like Harvest Time, Loneliness & Desperation, Your Love Is Dying (off the top of my head) - these would lack the oomph and power in another key, imo.

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## sarai

> I agree with this, to a point. Nothing worse than the lead singer struggling to be on pitch. Yet, certain songs work best in a certain key. Thinking of B chord, where there is clearly a vibe that goes along with that key. Tunes like Harvest Time, Loneliness & Desperation, Your Love Is Dying (off the top of my head) - these would lack the oomph and power in another key, imo.


This and I think some songs people are accustomed to playing in a certain key on certain songs and you'd thing (especially with less experienced players) that the jam would go better in the key that the musicians had experience/practice in.  This is of course less important with a guitar or banjo that you can capo...  at least - that was my thought behind trying to stay in a standard key.  Nonetheless I could see where a gal like myself could go on a limb and expand my horizons by adapting to some traditionally male songs.  But I wouldn't say, take a traditionally B song and move it up or down a 1/2 or whole step simply to "better" suit my voice.  I'm not that much of a perfectionist that I would make it harder for the musicians ...

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## Patrick Hull

Just a few thoughts that I have realized after going through what you have described.  I was very uptight and nervous.  I think part of the problem is that I thought I had to go and hold my own with everyone in the group right off the bat.  I now realize that was not realistic and nobody expected it.  First, I would look for a jam where the folks are friendly and everyone is welcome.  I have been to a few where a lot of people were competitive, and enjoyed putting others down.  I would never feel good there in a million years.  Second, just go and sit in and watch and be honest that you are learning and try not to get in the way.  Join in the fun, but don't feel like you have to "perform."  Maybe you can sing and not play.  Or maybe you can sing and just lightly strum time on the mando.  One thing I did that was pretty dumb.  I felt like my best songs were too easy or that I needed to come up with different songs every week.  Just have a good song or two, do them and then join in on a few others if you feel you can contribute.  It took me forever to realize I didn't have to play on every song.   As time goes on, I think you will feel more comfortable and be able to contribute more as you learn more.  But if you don't, you should be able to enjoy the music.

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pickloser

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## greg_tsam

> The key of a song should always be the key that suits the voice of the singer. I don't understand where people get the notion that a given song has a given key. Sing your song where it is comfortable for you.





> I agree with this, to a point. Nothing worse than the lead singer struggling to be on pitch. Yet, certain songs work best in a certain key. Thinking of B chord, where there is clearly a vibe that goes along with that key. Tunes like Harvest Time, Loneliness & Desperation, Your Love Is Dying (off the top of my head) - these would lack the oomph and power in another key, imo.


Last night someone requested Tennessee Waltz.  Someone called out B, I said it's usually played in D and we settled on C because B strained the singers voices.  Never played it in C but it was fun nonetheless.

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## Beanzy

Sarai I'm at the stage where I'm only just pitching up and singing and it's something I find difficult for me. 
What the others said about having the song so embedded is what gets me through. 
I also use an old memory trick of having a strong image in my head which I can run as I sing. Pools in a forest joined by the winding pathways that are the instrumental breaks. Each pool has a scene and I run that through then move on, only focussing on the next once I arrive there.
Singing and playing together I find very difficult, but if I run through the mental picture sequence each verse just arrives & gets sung and before I know it I'm at the last verse wishing there was another.

When (not if but when) I fluff the words or forget a line I'll sing about that to cover the tune and the beat.
So "here I'd normally sing about being left all alone" gets the line out of the way and I'll probably remember "without you my dear." by the time I've sung the first bit and end up with "here I'd normally sing, without you my dear." It's all good fun as long as you just keep giving the tune and sing in time, no one's getting hung up on life changing lyrical inspiration from accurately rendered vocals. We've ended up with our own local versions of some songs that way, which can be a laugh & get the listners more engaged that the real thing. Keep it comfortable and focus on the drive and tune, you know the song (because you can sing it to your heart's content at home), so let the lyrics come along if they like.

The first one I did was Peg & Awl because it's so darned simple with just the year & a few other words changing except for the final one.

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## JeffD

> Join in the fun, but don't feel like you have to "perform."  .... It took me forever to realize I didn't have to play on every song.  .


Two gigantic points. 

The jam is for you to contribute to the whole and have a lot of fun making music, not to perform or to show "them" what you got. 

And if you don't know a particular tune, sit it out. Sit out a bunch of them, most of them, all of them if you feel you aren't ready to contribute. Don't worry about it, soon enough your itch to play will override your itch to watch and you're off to the races.

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## Turnip Mountain Picker

Go-jam-and have FUN.  Two weeks into a jam and you will wonder why you were so worried.  When I first started going to jams, which wasnt very long ago, I had all the same worries and now that I have jammed a lot I look back and I had a blast every time.  On song selection, you can memorize a thousand songs and when you get to the jam they probably will not play any of them.  If its bluegrass chop along with them, try an easy solo using pentatonic scales or the melody and you will be fine, but most of all HAVE FUN!!!

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LM_in_KY

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## JeffD

> On song selection, you can memorize a thousand songs and when you get to the jam they probably will not play any of them.


True. Very true. The best way to know what songs to concentrate on is to go to the jam several times and listen to what they like to play.

You are, right now, as prepared as you can be for the jam. Maybe not prepared to take breaks or meaningfully lead a song, but prepared enough to attend and learn and have a ripping good time.

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## sarai

Beanzy 


> When (not if but when) I fluff the words or forget a line I'll sing about that to cover the tune and the beat.....


 That's a good talent for fluff!  I tend even in normal conversation not to be very eloquent about making things up on the fly.  But If I can just remember the first few words of each verse it usually rolls off.  Your technique is something that would be prudent of me to learn.  Coz usually if I forget the first few words I forget the whole darn verse.




> Go-jam-and have FUN. Two weeks into a jam and you will wonder why you were so worried. When I first started going to jams, which wasnt very long ago, I had all the same worries and now that I have jammed a lot I look back and I had a blast every time. On song selection, you can memorize a thousand songs and when you get to the jam they probably will not play any of them. If its bluegrass chop along with them, try an easy solo using pentatonic scales or the melody and you will be fine, but most of all HAVE FUN!!!


 Good advice.  Now if I could just find a regular ongoing jam it'd be fantastic.




> You are, right now, as prepared as you can be for the jam. Maybe not prepared to take breaks or meaningfully lead a song, but prepared enough to attend and learn and have a ripping good time.


  Good advice... helps not to feel the pressure..

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## bmac

I don't think the problem is with the newcomer to a jam, but the jam itself. If the jam is closed to those less experienced then that should be clearly stated. And there should be a beginners session for those less experienced or less familiar with jams.

I had a funny experience at an old time jam mainly for fiddlers. I brought my banjo and a mandolin and had a great time playing along... My wife however pointed out that after playing about a half hour everyone had left except the leader and myself. He was too nice to tell me I was probably throwing the fiddlers off with my playing.  But at least I had fun, even if no one else did.

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## Turnip Mountain Picker

http://www.michiganbluegrass.com/mb-jams.html

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## sarai

Thanks for that - I've seen that.  At least one I wanted to attend from that site was running anymore - but I found out it was moved to Woldumar Nature Center.




> I had a funny experience at an old time jam mainly for fiddlers. I brought my banjo and a mandolin and had a great time playing along... My wife however pointed out that after playing about a half hour everyone had left except the leader and myself. He was too nice to tell me I was probably throwing the fiddlers off with my playing. But at least I had fun, even if no one else did.


 NICE!

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## Bertram Henze

> I had a funny experience at an old time jam mainly for fiddlers. I brought my banjo and a mandolin and had a great time playing along... My wife however pointed out that after playing about a half hour everyone had left except the leader and myself. He was too nice to tell me I was probably throwing the fiddlers off with my playing.  But at least I had fun, even if no one else did.


This is definitely one strategy to keep off anxiety  I frequently use - just switch to bloodyminded mode.  :Cool:

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## JeffD

> If the jam is closed to those less experienced then that should be clearly stated. And there should be a beginners session for those less experienced or less familiar with jams.



"But this is a thing more ardently to be wished than seriously to be expected."

The truth is people just get together and play and other people see a group of people over there who just got together to play and want to join in and play. And with luck someone in the group, says, as Briscoe Darlin said "Jump in where you can and hang on." While such a system has its problems, they are the normal social issues we all deal with. People of good will and good manners can sort this out.

To my way of thinking it is much better than the "organized" or "moderated" jams, or even the "slow" jams, where everyone gets to play and everyone gets to endure someone elses playing, and everyone gets a turn, nobody plays too fast and nobody plays too slow and spontenaity and excitement are kept to a minimum.

But this might just be a personality thing. I am much more accommodating when there is nobody there telling me I have to accommode.

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## sarai

> While such a system has its problems, they are the normal social issues we all deal with. People of good will and good manners can sort this out.


Well said

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## Ed Goist

Great stuff in this thread.
Just one thing to add...Something that really helps beginners feel more comfortable is having the best player at the jam also be the most accommodating to beginners. I am fortunate to have experienced this and it is wonderful.
I say this because I am sure that many of you reading this are the _baddest cats_ at your respective jams...You can set the tone.

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## sarai

Ed Goist - you are in Northeast Ohio.  Maybe I'll see you at a Jam or Festival sometime!

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## Mike Bunting

> I agree with this, to a point. Nothing worse than the lead singer struggling to be on pitch. Yet, certain songs work best in a certain key. Thinking of B chord, where there is clearly a vibe that goes along with that key. Tunes like Harvest Time, Loneliness & Desperation, Your Love Is Dying (off the top of my head) - these would lack the oomph and power in another key, imo.


Only if the singer is capable of singing in that key. Those kind of songs are going to sound worse if they are sung out of tune than they would if the singer chose a suitable key for their voice.

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## jackmalonis

Since I'm new to jams too, is it acceptable to sit in and chop along to a song and add some improv lead if you get the nod... Even if you don't know the song??
Or are the "motifs" and themes of the melody usually pretty important?

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## SincereCorgi

> Since I'm new to jams too, is it acceptable to sit in and chop along to a song and add some improv lead if you get the nod... Even if you don't know the song??
> Or are the "motifs" and themes of the melody usually pretty important?


It all depends on the jam... I'd say that what you're proposing sounds totally appropriate for the vast majority of public jams. The exceptions being 1) big festival type-jams where little bluegrass cells coalesce, some of which cells will have very strictly defined ideas about participation and 2) Irish, where most people just want you to play the tune over and over. Just don't be a jerk and it should be fine.

(As a postscript: lower your expectations, musically. Most music at public jams doesn't sound great, but it's a good place to learn a lot of participation skills and get over nerves.)

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## Ed Goist

Do no harm.

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## jackmalonis

> It all depends on the jam... I'd say that what you're proposing sounds totally appropriate for the vast majority of public jams. The exceptions being 1) big festival type-jams where little bluegrass cells coalesce, some of which cells will have very strictly defined ideas about participation and 2) Irish, where most people just want you to play the tune over and over. Just don't be a jerk and it should be fine.
> 
> (As a postscript: lower your expectations, musically. Most music at public jams doesn't sound great, but it's a good place to learn a lot of participation skills and get over nerves.)


Ah, thanks so much. Yeah I'm waiting to get back down to Austin to go to my first jam, so I had no idea what to expect. I'm pretty new when it comes to the mando, but they look like so much fun. 

And, exactly I don't want to be the jerk ruining the regulars' good time with my ignorance  :Laughing:

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## Gerry Hastie

I echo Ivan's thinking entirely. I still remember being a beginner and where I relied on enthusiasm only matched by a willingness to humiliate myself (someone else said that on the cafe once - great quote)! Dix Bruce has a great book available from his website - the mandolin version of the parking lot pickers series. It's got the basic melody tabbed out to loads of really common bluegrass song repertoire and comes with a CD with a verse and chorus played to help with figuring out the melody. The book advises on different keys suitable to either male or female voices (in general) and lists artists who have recorded the songs and a discography so you can check it out.

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## mandolinlee

Hi Sarai,
Here's a Festival to consider. Northern Indiana Bluegrass Assoc. Festival over Labor Day Weekend at the Fairgrounds in Kendallville, Indiana. On Saturday morning they have several workshops including one called Jam Etiquette for Beginners (or something like that). It is run by a couple friends of mine that are old-hands at festivals and BG music and they will answer all your questions. Also a lot of groups picking in the camping area, most are open to other pickers. Some groups playing will be the paid performers rehearsing and warming up, you'll soon learn if they don't want visitors playing along. Camping is available. You can get more info by  going to Google and putting in: Northern Indiana Bluegrass Association. Maybe see you there.
Regards, 
Lee

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## Bertram Henze

> a willingness to humiliate myself (someone else said that on the cafe once - great quote)!


Very important indeed, and not just for jams - without this ability, you're bound to paint yourself into a corner where you squat, desperately trying to hide the fact that you are incompetent at life. Who experiences no humiliation is probably dead.

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## greg_tsam

Get in front of a group, take a lead accepting the possibility of a train wreck, Repeat.

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## doc holiday

JackM,  Head over to the Fiddler's Green in Austin & you'll find out everything you need to know.  Most things mandocentric in Austin (w/ the exception of jazz w/ Paul Glasse)....happen around the F Green.

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## jackmalonis

> Get in front of a group, take a lead accepting the possibility of a train wreck, Repeat.


Haha sounds great! I'm excited to be back in Austin.

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## jackmalonis

> JackM,  Head over to the Fiddler's Green in Austin & you'll find out everything you need to know.  Most things mandocentric in Austin (w/ the exception of jazz w/ Paul Glasse)....happen around the F Green.


Sorry to repost but I didn't see this. 

Yep, I'm headed there first thing when I get back to Austin. 

I'm sure I'll be raving about it as soon as I go!

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## JeffD

> Since I'm new to jams too, is it acceptable to sit in and chop along to a song and add some improv lead if you get the nod... Even if you don't know the song??
> Or are the "motifs" and themes of the melody usually pretty important?


Your question makes me think bluegrass, in which case "don't be a jerk" makes the most sense. I think better (much better) improvising comes from know the song, so I would be careful there. Its not difficult to identify the improvisation of someone who hasn't learned the tune. But you have to start somewhere, right. My first improvisations are always close to the melody, and the more nervous I am the closer I stay.

It certainly depends on the type of music. Irish traditional there is no chopping. It just doesn't really fit. And there are no real "breaks" one could take. No improvisation, but individuality in ornament. Some light and unpercusive chopping works ok in old time, and again no real improv.

Good luck and enjoy.

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## jackmalonis

> Your question makes me think bluegrass, in which case "don't be a jerk" makes the most sense. I think better (much better) improvising comes from know the song, so I would be careful there. Its not difficult to identify the improvisation of someone who hasn't learned the tune. But you have to start somewhere, right. My first improvisations are always close to the melody, and the more nervous I am the closer I stay.


Yes, bluegrass is mainly what I was thinking about.

Awesome, thanks so much for the advice. 
Yeah I definitely don't want to step on any toes. 

I mostly just want to go to learn some

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## pickloser

IMO, nobody cares if your break su. . .er. . .doesn't sound all that great or doesn't track the melody.  They DO care if your enthusiastic rhythm playing messes up or walks all over their break.  Playing rhythm requires attention.  Enthusiasm or no, watch your timing.  Really.

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## JeffD

> IMO, nobody cares if your break su. . .er. . .doesn't sound all that great or doesn't track the melody.  They DO care if your enthusiastic rhythm playing messes up or walks all over their break.  Playing rhythm requires attention.  Enthusiasm or no, watch your timing.  Really.


This is a good point. I wouldn't say nobody cares, but I agree that folks are more willing to foregive a bad break than they are bad rhythm. Folks tolerate a bad break because its expected that newbies are going to be nervous and rough, and because its your break not theirs. Bad rhythm screws them up, and that is irritating.

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## greg_tsam

I would go so far as to say that a bad break is not an issue, a problem or a concern.  It's a positive thing b/c it's part of the process.  Bad rhythm and timing is harder to forgive since it does mess with others but it's OK if it's part of the learning process and it gets better.  It's annoying if the offender is a repeat offender that just doesn't learn and doesn't care to learn or seem oblivious to their offense.  That's when the scowls and sour faces come out.   :Frown:

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## Turnip Mountain Picker

Some times I feel like if it wernt for bad breaks thered be no breaks at all!

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## JeffD

> Some times I feel like if it wernt for bad breaks thered be no breaks at all!


There is some truth to that.

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## sarai

> Pete Wernick has a great list of popular BG jam tunes on his website
> http://www.drbanjo.com/pdf/bluegrass-jam-favorites.pdf


Thanks again - I've been adding a bunch of these to my Spotify playlist.  

A couple favorites right now...
Footprints in the Snow - IIIrd Time Out's version was my fav. I like it so much I have to keep repeating it.
Love, Please Come Home - Bill Monroe's version
Lonesome Moonlight Waltz - Bill Monroe & Doc Watson Live (actually this one I think I got from a different thread - the one about 12 mandolin standards to know , or somethign like that)
Nine Pound Hammer - Bill Monroe's version
Little Maggie - Ricky Skaggs (love this one)

Anyway - thanks this stuff is soooo helpful because ther is so much music out there and it really helps to have it narrowed down.


(PS If you don't know what Spotify is, you are missing out - free music anything you want to hear on your PS, a few ads here and there.  You have to pay if you want the mobile phone version but computer is free).

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