# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Transciption for mandola

## Andy Boden

Coluld someone please advise me? If writing for a mandolin quartet (i.e. two mandolins, mandola & mandocello) I would expect to score the mandolins using the treble (G) clef and the mandocello using the bass (F) clef ..... but how would I be expected to score the mandola? would it be (a) treble clef (b) treble clef but written an octave higher, as a guitar (c) alto (C) clef like a viola or (d) bass clef ?

Thanks - Andy

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## John Anthony

Mandola reads alto clef.

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Andy Boden

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## John Goodin

I agree that alto clef is appropriate when writing for the CGDA mandola. However, it's very common for the players of those "alto" mandolas to request treble clef music written an octave up. Luckily most notation programs make that pretty easy to do.

It's important to note that everywhere else in the world, outside of the United States, the word mandola means what we call the octave mandolin (GDAE). Octave mandolin music around the world is usually written in treble clef, an octave up, like guitar music is.

In the last few years I've noticed a trend among American mandolin orchestras of more players using the octave instrument. Sometimes people will have one of each or, sometimes, people will use the octave mandolin/mandola and capo at the 5th fret to play music intended for the alto mandola.

However, if writing for the American/Gibson style quartet that aims to be in the same range as a classical string quartet, the alto mandola is your instrument. 

The whole thing is something of a nuisance for composers/arrangers but both types of mandola have their strengths and sound really cool. 

John G.

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Andy Boden

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## Martin Jonas

Given that Andy is in the UK, the situation is currently unfortunately confused.  In the heyday of mandolin orchestras in the UK, roughly from 1900 to 1950, "mandola" always referred to the octave instrument tuned in GDAE, i.e. what Americans tend to call "octave mandolin".  Most (but not all) classical players still use this convention.  Obviously, with a GDAE mandola all parts are -- and should be -- in treble clef one octave down, like for guitar.

The confusion has arisen because that older classical mandolin tradition in the UK is near-defunct, and the more recent popularity of the mandolin is driven by its uses in folk and popular styles.  Prospective mandola players have more often than not taught themselves rather than coming up through the ranks of classical mandolin orchestras or ensembles, have been unaware of the existing usage of the word "mandola", and have therefore simply followed American usage.  So, right now, it is anybody's guess what tuning an instrument called "mandola" may have in the UK.  My default assumption is that it's likely to be CGDA (and occasionaly DAEB) if played by a folk musician and GDAE if played by a classical musician, but that doesn't always hold true.

Martin

Edit: Looking at Andy's post again, I see that he is referring to a quartet of two mandolins, mandola and mandocello.  That line-up is called "quarteto classico" and will indeed have a CGDA mandola.  Violin quartet arrangements translate directly, and most (but not all) players would prefer alto clef in the same way as the viola.  While there is some (specific) mandolin repertoire for this line-up, historically the more common quartet configuration has been the "quarteto romantico", consisting of two mandolins, GDAE mandola and guitar.

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Andy Boden, 

edspyhill09, 

Mandophyte

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## Beanzy

Cracking answer Martin.

Just to underscore the classical divide thing. I have heard classical players who call them Octave Mandola and Tenor Mandola to highlight the difference. I think that does clarify it more if the terms are used like that & it seems like a terminology that would work both sides of the pond.

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## Tavy

> Cracking answer Martin.
> 
> Just to underscore the classical divide thing. I have heard classical players who call them Octave Mandola and Tenor Mandola to highlight the difference. I think that does clarify it more if the terms are used like that & it seems like a terminology that would work both sides of the pond.


Sigh.... classically (in Europe anyway) a tenor mandola is what most would call an octave mandolin nowadays, but when Gibson introduced their CGDA instrument they called it a tenor mandola (wrongly IMO as it's an alto instrument) and the name stuck.  Almost as bad as folks calling a "whammy bar" as tremolo arm, when it actually produces vibrato  :Wink:

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## Martin Jonas

Indeed, Tavy -- Beanzy is right that "tenor mandola" is a common name for the CGDA mandolin in the UK, but it is the wrong name as it's not a tenor instrument.  For that reason, the term "tenor mandola" is just as likely to cause confusion as the term "mandola" itself.  The only unambiguous names (in the UK, at least) are "alto mandola" (always CGDA) and "octave mandola/mandolin" (always GDAE).  Clearly, this type of confusion has by now a venerable history, as it led Luigi Embergher a century ago to propose the name "mandoliola" for the viola-tuned instrument.  Didn't catch on, though -- Gibson's marketing department was slicker than Embergher's.

Martin

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## Andy Boden

Blimey, I think I'll just score things for guitar or 10 string mandolin !! Perhaps this is a good reason to score using tablature.

Nevertheless ..... An interesting discussion. Thanks for all the comments.

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## JeffD

I would assume that if one picked up an old Gibson H2 or H4 (before 1950 say) or an old Lyon & Healy mandola of that period, that it would have been designed specifically for CGDA tuning, despite being called a mandola.

No?

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## Beanzy

Now I'm confused, as ever.
I thought it was tuned the same as a viola and that the viola was tuned down to C at 218, same as the normal low end of a tenor voice. So the Tenor Mandola would be a tenor instrument if that were the case. I think the tenor guitar lives down in the same place.

I'm not clear how it's not considered a tenor instrument. 
Are these things measured by only the upper range ignoring the lower range? as I think the mandola would leave the singers in the dirt there and be off up beyond the vocal abilities of any soprano. Is it the mid-point of the range instead?
How is it decided where instruments sit and what their proper range/term should be?

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## Chip Booth

andabouk, if it was me, I would ask for treble clef arrangement.  I play primarily treble clef instruments (guitar and mandolin) though I switch over to mandola (CGDA) and octave mandolin (GDAE).  I prefer to read the clef I am most familiar with if it is possible.  If your mandola player is a crossover player like me he may prefer treble clef.  I guess it would be ideal if you arrange in a software program so that you can easily convert for whatever your performer needs.

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Andy Boden

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## margora

It is not that confusing.   For a piece for classical quartet (the mandolin equivalent of string quartet) write the mandola part in alto clef.   Just be prepared, as John Goodin, remarks, if players request it, that you can recast the alto clef part into 8va treble or possibly a different key (to facilitate reading the alto part as if it were written for the mandolin).   This can be done more or less instantaneously with a standard computer notation program.

To give a specific example, Victor Kioulaphides' various mandolin quartets all have mandola parts available in alto clef or 8va treble.

I generally play octave mandolin with the Providence Mandolin Orchestra, because the vast majority of our pieces originate outside the US where, as John Goodin noted, the octave instrument is standard in the mandolin ensemble world.

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Andy Boden

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## Eddie Sheehy

I have mandola scores written in Treble Clef, Bass Clef and two Alto Clefs... confusing...

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## brunello97

(Deleted lengthy rant on the whole mandola-octave mandolin nonsense.)  

My little niece taught me how to read alto clef.  I kind of like that middle space and middle range. Whatever you want to call them.

Mick

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## Andy Boden

> (Deleted lengthy rant on the whole mandola-octave mandolin nonsense.)  
> 
> My little niece taught me how to read alto clef.  I kind of like that middle space and middle range. Whatever you want to call them.
> 
> Mick


When I used to play violin I was occasionally asked to play viola. I read the alto clef by thinking I was reading the treble clef, but playing the violin one string and two finger positions down !

Now that's confusing !!

Anyway, I think I get the idea .....
(a) if it's an arrangement for someone in particular, ask them what their instrument range is (whatever they choose to call the instrument) and what clef they prefer.
(b) if it's an arrangement without a specific person in mind, do what you like then wait for people to shout.

In response to Mick's quote from Samuel Beckett, may I mis-quote Burns -

If at first you don't succeed - kill the @*!!* spider.

Andy

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## Beanzy

I've only recently started to get the hang of the alto clef and it was just one of those simple things where my wife pointed out that the first stave line above my cello part was the first one below my mandolin part and that was called middle C and "doh!" it lives in the middle of the two staves. So if I found middle c on the Tenor guitar I could then play from any of the scores I had up middle or down from that C. Suddenly it clicked. 

Like I say I'm easily befuddled by much of the theory details unless I get a clear picture of howq it all ties together. It's fun to have it click in place when it does though.

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edspyhill09

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## brunello97

Beanzy, you pretty well described the exact experience I went through.  Mine was courtesy a twelve year old, though, so my 'doh' came from a very deep place. Spatial-izing Middle C.  Mezzo mare. Meta'maro.  Pianists have it so easy.

Mick

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## John Anthony

The whole issue is easily resolved with modern notation software of course. Depending on what your individual players read, a part can be altered to any clef or transposition with a few clicks of the mouse.

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## David Westwick

Why is notation for the mandola/octave mandolin/Irish bouzouki written in octave treble clef?  Surely TENOR clef is the correct clef to use for this instrument.  It fits the range of the instrument with a minimum of ledger lines (in both directions), and doesn't require any transposition.... Besides, that would turn the GDAE mandola into a "transposing cello".   :Wink:

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## John Anthony

Only cellists can read tenor clef - it's a genetic anomaly.

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bratsche

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## MMDavis

The Providence Mandolin Orchestra uses both mandolas in C and G (whatever you wish to call them..).  We use the G mandolas because almost all new music written in Europe and Australia is written with that instrument in mind.  The 'C mandolas' are useful when we are playing Bach and other traditional string orchestra repertoire.  Our mandola players read the same as our classical guitarists, i.e., treble clef 8ba.   You will find the same situation in the rest of the world.  For those players who wish to read otherwise, there are easily accessible transposing programs.

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Andy Boden, 

edspyhill09

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## edspyhill09

I just went on the Internet and found some free Mandolin Quartet scores and parts and all the mandola parts are written in standard notation.  Looks like I have to learn Alto clef and keep a relational database in my head to link it with treble clef.  And I just got Debora Chen's Alto reading book in the mail.   AARRGGHHHH.  Wine with dinner tonight.

Ed T.

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## Jim Garber

Not only that but viola music is also partially written with treble clef. Cello is sometimes written in three or more clefs.

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## mrmando

You don't really read alto clef until you are able to let go of crutches linking it to some other clef that you already know. It's fine, early on, to think of it in terms of treble clef ... but methinks you must reach the point of reading it on its own terms. I'd like to get there with tenor clef, but haven't quite made it yet.

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## Beanzy

> Not only that but viola music is also partially written with treble clef. Cello is sometimes written in three or more clefs.


At first when we start to move off the bass clef on the cello we cheat. 
It's in the Tenor clef which puts it up a 5th form the bass, so we just use the same fingering up a string, eventually you don't need to think like that but it's a great trick to kick off playing tenor clef. 

With the treble clef although there's not the same 'cheat' to kick off, it wasn't too bad either as I normally only needed it when I go up to thumb position mostly and play off there with everything referenced to the thumb as if it were a nut.

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## edspyhill09

I'm sure I missed this in the discussion but I have a question.  If I'm playing a Mandola tuned CGDA, a fifth below the Mandolins and I have to transpose parts written for the Octave Mandolins, do I transpose to a key a fourth higher than the Octave Mandolins?  (A fifth lower than the Mandolins?)  The ensemble I may be joining uses Octave Mandolins.  Ed T.

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## Jim Garber

You should not transpose at all. You should play the notes as written. You need to be in the same key as everyone else. 

If you are talking about fingering the mandola in mandolin fingering then you will be playing a fourth above the octave mandolins or a fifth below the mandolins. If you play 5th fret on the mandola on the C string then you are playing F note bujt that note should then be a C. If the part is low then just play it one string up from the part as written. If it is higher then you will need to go into higher positions. I think that makes sense. 

Do let us know: are you reading what is called universal notation for the octaves?

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## edspyhill09

> You should not transpose at all. You should play the notes as written. You need to be in the same key as everyone else. 
> 
> If you are talking about fingering the mandola in mandolin fingering then you will be playing a fourth above the octave mandolins or a fifth below the mandolins. If you play 5th fret on the mandola on the C string then you are playing F note bujt that note should then be a C. If the part is low then just play it one string up from the part as written. If it is higher then you will need to go into higher positions. I think that makes sense. 
> 
> Do let us know: are you reading what is called universal notation for the octaves?


I think all the parts are in universal notation.  I'm waiting for samples of the octave mandolin parts to be emailed to me.  I think I'm over-complicating this.  I don't want to tune my mandola as an octave mandolin.  The leader said it is fine to keep my CGDA tuning because it will add to the sound texture.  The best thing to do is go to rehearsal Monday night and see how I fit in, how much I need practice.  I'm getting that wonderful combination of fear and elation about joining an ensemble as a new member and performing.

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## edspyhill09

I've been reading through all the notation threads.  I came up with this in-transition list of names and tunings, using the mandolin as the starting instrument.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mandolin - GDAE

Octave Mandolin ("European" Mandola) (ROW* Mandola) ("G" Mandola) [Octave below Mandolin]- GDAE 

Mandola ("American" Mandola) ("C" Mandola) [Fifth below Mandolin] - CGDA 

Mandocello [Octave below "American" Mandola] - CGDA

* ROW = Rest of the world

As far as notation, probably the best way to approach it is, whatever Mandola notation the ensemble uses, use it.  I'm having less trouble memorizing the Sanskrit names of Yoga poses!   :Smile: 

Ed T.

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## Andy Boden

Wow ! I started this thread as a simple question regarding the scoring of arrangements not ever expecting it to end up as such a complicated discussion.

As a composer/arranger I think my question has been comprehensively answered. However it seems to have developed into a discussion of how to read (and possibly transpose) scores when playing on different size instruments so I'll stick in my two penn'orth.

This may seem simplistic, but I'd simply say play the score on a suitable instrument (one which covers the range) using the score as presented. When I played violin I was often also required to play viola on occasions, reading from a part scored using the alto (C) clef. This seemed awkward at first and initially needed some 'on the fly' mental transposition, but after a remarkably short time things fell into place and I became sort of musically bi-lingual.

I don't wish to make light of people's difficulties but, like everything else concerning playing a musical instrument, it just takes practice and things soon fall into place.

If I had to read from the alto clef now I'm sure I'd be back to square one, but experience tells me that having a go and not worrying too much about it will soon overcome the problems - it's just a case of becoming familiar with a slightly different code, and probably a lot easier than trying to swap between reading notation and tablature.

Andy

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## tmsweeney

> I don't wish to make light of people's difficulties but, like everything else concerning playing a musical instrument, it just takes practice and things soon fall into place.
> Andy


thank you for posting that

can we have this quote available for pasting into "how do I get better faster" or "How do I master this instrument with the least possible effort" threads

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## edspyhill09

Can someone point me to a small snippet of notation showing the same part written in treble clef for octave mandolin and also written in alto clef for mandola.  I want to ensure I can correctly do conversions of treble to alto so I can convert the octave mandolin parts to alto clef for my CGDA mandola.  Ed T.

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## edspyhill09

> Wow ! I started this thread as a simple question regarding the scoring of arrangements not ever expecting it to end up as such a complicated discussion.
> 
> As a composer/arranger I think my question has been comprehensively answered. However it seems to have developed into a discussion of how to read (and possibly transpose) scores when playing on different size instruments so I'll stick in my two penn'orth.
> 
> This may seem simplistic, but I'd simply say play the score on a suitable instrument (one which covers the range) using the score as presented. When I played violin I was often also required to play viola on occasions, reading from a part scored using the alto (C) clef. This seemed awkward at first and initially needed some 'on the fly' mental transposition, but after a remarkably short time things fell into place and I became sort of musically bi-lingual.
> 
> I don't wish to make light of people's difficulties but, like everything else concerning playing a musical instrument, it just takes practice and things soon fall into place.
> 
> If I had to read from the alto clef now I'm sure I'd be back to square one, but experience tells me that having a go and not worrying too much about it will soon overcome the problems - it's just a case of becoming familiar with a slightly different code, and probably a lot easier than trying to swap between reading notation and tablature.
> ...


Everyone reads the same posts, even those of us that are rank beginners.  I enjoyed the entire thread no matter where it drifted.  Thanks to all.  Ed T.

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## Andy Boden

Hi Ed - I hope you didn't take my comments as patronising - they were rather meant to be encouraging.

I've attached a short snippet of music written in the alto (C) clef and the same thing written for the Octave mandola. To keep on track, remember that the middle line of the stave when using the alto clef is middle C. The 8ve mandola, of course, sounds an octave lower than written, so the two lines are exactly the same notes at exactly the same pitch. I hope that's helpful

Andy

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## edspyhill09

> Hi Ed - I hope you didn't take my comments as patronising - they were rather meant to be encouraging.
> 
> I've attached a short snippet of music written in the alto (C) clef and the same thing written for the Octave mandola. To keep on track, remember that the middle line of the stave when using the alto clef is middle C. The 8ve mandola, of course, sounds an octave lower than written, so the two lines are exactly the same notes at exactly the same pitch. I hope that's helpful
> 
> Andy


Andy.  No problem.  I didn't take it as patronizing.  It was just one way of saying that these discussions are very educational for most of us, and I appreciate them.  Thank you for the examples.  And I happy to report that from reading all the posts it is what I thought it would look like.  That is one less thing to worry about.  Thank you.  Ed T.

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