# RSS News Feeds > RSS News Feeds >  Why is an E# not just an F?

## NewsFetcher

JazzMando.com Tips and Tricks
At some point in your musical development, you have stumbled on to one of the great confounders of enharmonic notes in scales. *Ab* is *G#*, *Gb* is *F#*, etc... Most get that, but you run into the rebel that says _"E# is equal to F? What's up with that. Why not just call it "F" and be done with it? Why waste brain cells adding an accidental to a perfectly good note when you don't have to?"_ This resentment runs deep especially in beginning piano players.
  Aurally, it won't make a bit of difference (let's not get nit-picky about equal temperament for now). Physically, it's the same fingering on a mandolin fretboard, although we used to have fun in practice, joking about having to send that new mandolin back to the builder because it only came with *F*s and no *E#*s. But if you're going to dip your toe into music theory (and we all do at some point), you need to embrace the *E#* (and *B#*) from a functional standpoint. An *E#* in a flat key is as out of place as a trombone at a Bluegrass festival. 

  When we start tripping around the Circle of 5ths, we get to that fuzzy part where keys with lots of sharps and lots of flats start intertwining. We want to make things simpler by thinking enharmonically, but you have to retain the function of the note, because of how it interacts with the other notes in the scale. If we are in the key of *C#* (seven sharps), and *E#* is an important note of the scale, the *3rd*. It defines the "majorness" of the mode, and to call it an *F natural* would give it an entirely different scale degree function.
  Here's an example of a chord progression recently transcribed in a set list, rather poorly:
*C#    Fm    F#     D#m*
  Here is a better version, notice the 2nd chord:
*C#   C#/E#   F#   D#m*
  Why is this better? It represents the chord's function in the rest of the piece in the context of *C# Major*. Note in the first example the chord is both aurally and enharmonically correct, but in a world of six sharps, it pulls a mental muscle. The chord is actually a *first inversion major 7 tonic* (3rd in the bass), and would be more accurately spelled this way: 

  C#Maj7/E# 
*Fm* triad with then notes* F Ab C* could be thought of as the first inversion _rootless_* C# Maj7* chord, *E#, G#, B#* (no *C#*), but in the circle of keys, it's a little like setting your clock from *5:35* to *5:30* by moving the hand forward 23 hours and 55 minutes, rather than moving it back 5 minutes.

And before you ask, we think *C#/E#* is simply better chord shorthand than *C#Maj7/E#* in the context of this song. The B# is unnecessary, though it fit the song better stylistically. It's like the swing musician throwing the obligatory *Maj6* chord on a major triad. It goes with the territory.
  Homework: Go mark all your *F* notes on your mandolin and tell them to be *E#*s.
*Further:*
Circle of Fifths
 Accidental Indicators 
Chromatic Equality and Justice for All (Keys) 
Three Four Pull
Music geekdom. Tonal functions go clubbing 
I hate music theory (Part 1)


Visit JazzMando.com web site...

----------


## D C Blood

Fifty years of mandolin pickin', and I've never needed anything like all this mess.  Glad I play basically traditional bluegrass.  Newsfetcher is speaking Chinese or Arabic or something like that, for all the good it does me.  However, I do respect and admire the musicians who can and do use this stuff...

----------


## Mandolin Mick

If you're like me and read musical notation and/or are transposing to other keys it makes a big difference. Understanding harmonic theory can only help you as a musician. 

*But*, as a fellow Bluegrasser ... you're right, it doesn't really come into play in Bluegrass, which is fine with me!  :Smile:

----------


## neil argonaut

I've always thought an easier way to think of the reason is that a major scale normally has one of each letter, with them either sharpened or flattened, and if you used F instead of E#, the key of C# would consist of C#D#FF#G#A#C (with 2 F notes and 2 C notes) rather than C#D#E#F#G#A#B# which is a lot less confusing.

Or just use a capo at the first fret and play in C  :Wink:

----------


## swampy

> I've always thought an easier way to think of the reason is that a major scale normally has one of each letter, with them either sharpened or flattened, and if you used F instead of E#, the key of C# would consist of C#D#FF#G#A#C (with 2 F notes and 2 C notes) rather than C#D#E#F#G#A#B# which is a lot less confusing.
> 
> Or just use a capo at the first fret and play in C


This is especially true when you take into account the visual aspect of reading standard notation. At least that was what I was told when I asked my music theory professor waaaaay back in college.

----------


## neil argonaut

> This is especially true when you take into account the visual aspect of reading standard notation. At least that was what I was told when I asked my music theory professor waaaaay back in college.


Yeah, there would be no way of writing the key signature, and it would have to be specified each time a C or F turns up if it was sharpened or not.

----------


## mrmando

If you were playing "Old Home Place" in the key of A, the second chord would be C# major, which includes an E#. You might need to know that when it comes time to play your solo break. So this concept does come into bluegrass, whether you realize it or not.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I've always thought an easier way to think of the reason is that a major scale normally has one of each letter, with them either sharpened or flattened.


I have come to terms with an even easier explanation - for some reason, the C major scale has been given a consistent nomenclature, and all other major scales have been downgraded as tweaks of that nomenclature. Making one scale special out of the others (and building the piano keyboard to match) is the initial mistake, and all other difficulties follow from that. 
Once equal temperament was accepted, this whole A thru B business could have been replaced by a number system of 12 half steps to the octave, C major scale would be 0-2-4-5-7-9-11, C# major scale would just be C + 1 (i.e. 1-3-5-6-8-10-12)...

Too late now to change any of it, so let the chaos go on...  :Sleepy:

----------


## neil argonaut

> If you were playing "Old Home Place" in the key of A, the second chord would be C# major, which includes an E#. You might need to know that when it comes time to play your solo break. So this concept does come into bluegrass, whether you realize it or not.


Yes but you wouldn't need to know in this case whether it was an E# or an F, you'd just have to know where the note was in relation to the key you're in.

----------


## neil argonaut

> I have come to terms with an even easier explanation - for some reason, the C major scale has been given a consistent nomenclature, and all other major scales have been downgraded as tweaks of that nomenclature. Making one scale special out of the others (and building the piano keyboard to match) is the initial mistake, and all other difficulties follow from that. 
> Once equal temperament was accepted, this whole A thru B business could have been replaced by a number system of 12 half steps to the octave, C major scale would be 0-2-4-5-7-9-11, C# major scale would just be C + 1 (i.e. 1-3-5-6-8-10-12)...
> 
> Too late now to change any of it, so let the chaos go on...


I do think though, it's very handy having letters instead of numbers for this, as numbers are already used for scale degrees, i e 5th, maj7th etc, (as well as being used for beats/time signature, fingers used, fret in tab etc). It keeps it simple to know that whenever a letter is mentioned it refers to an absolute tone, and not just one relative to the key you're in.

----------


## swampstomper

> Yes but you wouldn't need to know in this case whether it was an E# or an F, you'd just have to know where the note was in relation to the key you're in.


In that example, you might as well say the G# (5th of the A# chord: A# E# G#) is an Ab.  Or even that the IV chord (C#) here is a Db (Db - F [yes, in this case, it's a flat key] - Ab). But how did you get a Db note from the root key of A?? which has a scale A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#, three sharps.  The fact that it's in the same physical position on the fretboard (enharmonic, pointed out at the very beginning of his post by Ted) is not the point -- it's the harmonic function of the note.

----------


## journeybear

> In that example, you might as well say the G# (5th of the A# chord: A# E# G#) is an Ab.  Or even that the IV chord (C#) here is a Db (Db - F [yes, in this case, it's a flat key] - Ab). But how did you get a Db note from the root key of A?? which has a scale A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#, three sharps.  The fact that it's in the same physical position on the fretboard (enharmonic, pointed out at the very beginning of his post by Ted) is not the point -- it's the harmonic function of the note.


 :Confused:  G# is the *VIIb* of the A# scale, the V tone of the A# scale is *E#*, and the A# chord is *A# D E#*. And the IV chord is *D#*. Otherwise ... OK.  :Smile:

----------


## Tom Wright

> G# is the *VIIb* of the A# scale, the V tone of the A# scale is *E#*, and the A# chord is *A# D E#*. And the IV chord is *D#*. Otherwise ... OK.


A# major chord is properly A#, C## (or Cx), E#. You might see this if you're in F# major and have to spell a III maj chord or I augmented. It is fairly common in classical music to see double sharps or double flats, to keep spelling consistent.

Occasionally it gets silly: one place in a symphony by Anton Bruckner has the violas move from A flat minor to G# major. He has us play a C flat followed by a B#, which looks lower on the staff but is actually a half step up. (We wonder why he couldn't have stayed in A flat a bit longer.)

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Originally Posted by swampstomper
> 
> 
> G# (5th of A#  A# E# G#) is Ab. IV  (C#) is a Db (Db - F  - Ab). Db A?? A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#
> 
> 
>  G#  *VIIb* A# V of A# is *E#*,  A# *A# D E#*.  IV  is *D#*. Otherwise ... OK.


Distilled to the essence, this short dialog perfectly demonstrates why I could do better with numbers  :Laughing:

----------


## journeybear

But then you would miss out on philosophical distillations like this:

"To do is to be" - Nietzsche; "To be is to do" - Kant; "Do Be Do Be Do" - Sinatra

 :Whistling:

----------


## swampstomper

sorry, brain cramp, you are right... I don't play in A# too much... much more in Bb.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> But then you would miss out on philosophical distillations like this:
> 
> "To do is to be" - Nietzsche; "To be is to do" - Kant; "Do Be Do Be Do" - Sinatra


I'd rather C to B# than to Bb

----------

