# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

## string dude

I opened up my mandolin case yesterday, & found my neck completely broken across the whole width of the neck, between the tuners & the nut. I was completely shocked, because I did nothing to make this happen. There was a hair line mark in the area, that I thought was just a finish/ varnish crack. I guess it was an actual wood crack.The tension on the neck I presume just gave out, & it just snapped. Anyway my question is. Can I have a new neck put on without damaging the body or any other components? I'm assuming that I'm covered by my warranty, but if not I will need a qualified luthier to repair my mandolin. I'm hoping the cafe can shed some light on my dilemma. Thanks

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## Ivan Kelsall

Post a few photos.on here for the experts to view. If the break is clean,& the pieces  will go back together as they are,then possibly you'll get away with having the break well glued. This isn't an uncommon break & maybe as i said,if the parts fit back together well,
it's one of the ''easiest'' to repair,
                                            Ivan

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## sunburst

Some things to consider:
Instrument necks don't just come apart in the case undisturbed. The manufacturer will know that, and may not consider it a warranty situation. 
Some things that might cause the neck to break in the case:

-The case was dropped. A sudden impact to the case can cause a "whiplash" break of the headstock.
-Overheating, if there was a previous repair. Heat can cause the glue to release.
-A poorly done previous repair.
-A previous repair of a severe break, especially with some component of cross-grain fracture, where a good glue joint cannot be made.

If you bought the mandolin new and have had possession of it since new, you will know if there was a previous repair, and if not, the manufacturer will almost surely not consider it a warranty situation because they will assume there was some impact to the case, unless there is evidence that the wood in the neck was very poorly chosen.

To answer your question: 
Yes, a competent repair person can remove the neck and instal a new one without damaging the rest of the instrument. That may well be beside the point however, because the existing neck my be relatively easily repaired, but I can't really say without seeing it.

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## fscotte

Yeah, wood just doesn't break like that.

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## string dude

Well I just spent the last 45 minutes posting a reply, trying to import some pics, & wasn't allowed to do it. I was logged in! Thanks folks for your replies. I'll let you know when I can play " A day in the life of  a fool " , once again.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Well I just spent the last 45 minutes posting a reply, trying to import some pics, & wasn't allowed to do it. I was logged in! Thanks folks for your replies. I'll let you know when I can play " A day in the life of  a fool " , once again.


First of all I know exactly how you feel.  Years ago I loaned a mandolin to a person for an evening while at a local music workshop so she could participate in one of the jams.  I got the case back a few hours later and did not look at the mandolin. I loaded the case in the car and went home.  Later I was rather surprised to see the neck broken when I opened the case -- sounds like the break you describe was exactly the same. The matter was eventually resolved but my point is I feel your pain!

How big were the image files -- too big to upload?  Alternatively are they it a format recognized by the Cafe upload robot (.jpg)?  Could you upload the photos to a cloud service and post a link here?

If you continue to have trouble why don't you make a video of the damage with your smart phone, u0pload it to YouTube and then give us a link to the video. Make sure you don't save the video a "PRIVATE" though.

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## billhay4

To answer your original question, you can have a new neck put on the instrument or this one may be repairable. Get it to a good luthier.
Bill

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## string dude

I haven't heard, or received any e-mail contact from the Gibson Guitar Corporation. So I'm throwing this query out to the West coast cafe members. Who can I take my Mandolin to, & have a new neck put on. I'm looking for top quality, professional level expertise. I live in Northern California.

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## MikeEdgerton

You need to pretty much contact the Gibson mandolin division guys directly. Are you the original owner? Did you register it when you bought it?

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## onassis

Gryphon Stringed Instruments in Palo Alto are regarded as top notch. If it's a clean break, it might just be a glue repair. They would definitely be the guys to tell you what's needed.

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## Bernie Daniel

> I haven't heard, or received any e-mail contact from the Gibson Guitar Corporation. So I'm throwing this query out to the West coast cafe members. Who can I take my Mandolin to, & have a new neck put on. I'm looking for top quality, professional level expertise. I live in Northern California.


*Roger Siminoff Mandolin and Banjo Parts* is in Atascadero, CA south of San Francisco.  His shop can build and install a new neck in an F-5.

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## string dude

Well I finally heard from Gibson. They seem to think the break is un-repairable, & glueing it would just come apart again. They suggested I buy another mandolin, because it would cost more to fix,than putting on a new neck. Wow! So I just chuck a $3000. dollar mandolin, & go out and  get another one. Maybe for some folks that's a no brainer, but for me it's totally absurd. I've never paid as much money for any of my 8 guitars, ( 2 Martins, 1971 original owner, 1950 015, 78 metal body Dobro, 2 Fender strats., etc. ), keyboards, ukelele, custom dreadnaught. I 'm patiently waiting to see where this goes. I was hoping to get a Really nice arch top, jazz guitar in the near future, and it would probably cost as much as a repair job. I guess I'm going to be strictly a guitar dude, & kiss the mando goodbye. Yea I'm a little negative & cynical at the moment. Better play some music, & get into the Zone. Namaste folks.

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## MikeEdgerton

Before you do anything simply contact Frank Ford at Gryphon and see what he tells you. 

His site is at www.frets.com.

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## Jeff Mando

Too bad about your mandolin, but I see it as an opportunity for an upgrade.  You can pick the radius, fingerboard, inlay, fret size, and nut size -- there is a very good chance that you will like the mandolin even better with a new neck!  I think any number of shops can easily perform this upgrade.  Good luck!

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## Wes Brandt

Really you may be getting bummed out without good reason… broken peg heads/necks are standard fare in the repair business and if done right and with finish touchup, can be practically as good as new for ...typically 200-300… you should figure out how to post some photos and let the luthiers here have at it.

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## string dude

/Users/donnalovatto/Desktop/DSCF0621.JPG
Here's a picture of the break. The best I could figure out is that you have to double click the JPG, & the picture  shows up. Let me know if any of you can actually open up the picture. Especially any of you luthier's, & I do have more shoots, at different perspectives.
Thanks.
Danny

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## MikeEdgerton

You're linking to a picture on your local desktop.

Take a look at this tutorial:

https://vimeo.com/33795824

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## skygazer

> Well I finally heard from Gibson. They seem to think the break is un-repairable, & glueing it would just come apart again. They suggested I buy another mandolin, because it would cost more to fix,than putting on a new neck. Wow!... I guess I'm going to be strictly a guitar dude, & kiss the mando goodbye...


The Gibson person sounds like BS to me. You always get the "can't be done economically" nonsense. Find someone with a get it done attitude and the skill to make it happen. One example, my best dump truck snapped both main frame members right through from the weight of deep snow on my biggest plow. Another truck rusted out the rear cross member. A third truck just last Feb. rusted (from the liquid salt) so it couldn't pass inspection, only something like 27k miles on it. In every case I found someone who did the job *very* reasonably, in spite of shops telling me it couldn't be done. All those fixes are still good, the double frame snap is much stronger than when it was made at the factory.

My Dad had a part break on his big tractor, they wanted thousands for a new part. A neighbor welded it for $50 and it lasted as long as the tractor.

Years ago I saw a professional guitarist packing some thick padding on top of his headstock before closing the case on his guitar. I was surprised, as I always thought you kept that area untouched and supported the neck below the headstock.

So I asked him why. He told me he opened his case and found his headstock snapped clean off. He figured the total immense lifting force of the steel strings, combined with some kind of shock, was just too much for the wood. So now he always pads it, especially when traveling. So guitars can have the same problem.

Hey, if you decide to follow their advice and just chuck it, please chuck it my way!   :Wink:  Bet I could make an ugly fix myself. Gibson has to worry about making a perfectly invisible fix, if the customer is unhappy with it they have to eat it. They know there was some type of shock, whether physical or thermal or whatever, so they don't want to eat the loss. Don't bum out, find the right person and fix or replace/customize/improve.

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## string dude

Mike, 
       I tried & I apologize for the bad link. I am really not that good with this whole computer stuff. I'll give it another try tomorrow, & thanks for the  tutorial.

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## mirwa

The Gibson person you dealt with is an idiot and possibly an embarrasement for Gibson.

Everything is repairable and in the hands of a good repairer your neck will be stronger than when it was made.

Find someone local and make it better and stronger than ever. Not a mandolin but this week we had two 335's in with snapped necks, the owners were devasted and then elated when repaired, I'm sure someone is capable in your locality.

Steve

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## Rodney Riley

Weber is replacing the neck on my Gallatin. It can be done. Only drawback is the time it takes to work it in with their new builds. And yes it's expensive. With shipping and handling, insurance and all the labor involved. Almost half the original cost.  :Frown:  But for me I wanted it done by the people that know my instrument the best. The original builders.

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## Bernie Daniel

> The Gibson person you dealt with is an idiot and possibly an embarrasement for Gibson.
> 
> Everything is repairable and in the hands of a good repairer your neck will be stronger than when it was made.
> 
> Find someone local and make it better and stronger than ever. Not a mandolin but this week we had two 335's in with snapped necks, the owners were devasted and then elated when repaired, I'm sure someone is capable in your locality.
> 
> Steve


I don't want to hijack the OP's thread here but maybe my question & pics will be helpful to him.  

Steve you have commented many time about repairing broken necks so I guess you've seen your share of them!!

Here are two pics of a mandolin neck that I fixed about 4 years ago the break was (I think) about exactly the same place the OP described his damage. 

I did both and over lay and and under lay with fresh wood for this repair.  I glued it down with fish glue.

All was well for about 3 years  -- but a year ago I started seeing a crack where the maple under lay is starting to separate from the neck (see pics). It has not changed over the time since it first appeared.

Nonetheless, I am thinking of gluing it back down.

To that end I carved a maple caul and glued cork padding on the contact surface.  A couple of dry runs shows that this arrangement will allow me to nicely squeeze the gap closed with a threaded clamp.  

So now I'm wondering what kind of glue would be best to inject in to the crack before I clamp it up for the best results?

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## sunburst

The load on that joint is mostly tensile. Hot hide glue is about the best in tensile strength. 
So that's a separation between two different pieces of wood rather than an open crack in the neck wood? Sorry to say it, but that indicates that the joint was not great to start with, so it might be a recurring problem.
The problem is, there's "junk" in there now; old glue, whatever airborne material has settled into/onto the wood surface, and a good, clean glue joint isn't really possible. Cleaning the surfaces would not be easy, though flushing with distilled water might help, but it might also alter the fit of the wood after wetting and drying with the associated wood movement.

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Bernie Daniel

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## Bernie Daniel

I recall reading somewhere that ethyl-2-cyanoacrylate is very good on wood and seems to be less affected by old glue residue than other glues.  I imagine an new neck is in the future but I am tempted to try that first?

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## MysTiK PiKn

In the REPLY BOX (where you type) - *3rd icon from the right at top of reply box - it lites up and says 'insert image'* = click that.

A little box appears - click *'computer'* - then click *'browze'*

You (browze) >>> (find pix) = go to the folder where your pix are. = click on [ONE PICTURE ONLY]

then click '*upload*' or whatever that says = (wait) *DONE*.


*REPEAT (browze)* for more pix - just browze to the next one. REPEAT = you will see *[ATTACH - code for pix]* in the reply box. *that means it's working.*

browze to each pix same way.



(it all starts w that (insert image) icon at the top of the reply box.  They show up in text form, and you can even move them around in text form, with mouse keyboard.)



(copy this to a text file and just do it slowly) You need to know where your pix are on your pooter.

If this fails, find a 9 year old, to help you.  Play with it.  You can stop it all w the CANCEL lower right of reply box. If you get it right, hit "Post Reply".

really - this is too much detail - it's easy.

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## Michael Lewis

String Dude, Where in northern CA are you?

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## mirwa

> So now I'm wondering what kind of glue would be best to inject in to the crack before I clamp it up for the best results


I agree with John, the original neck fit up by manufacturer may have been a little lapse, let's call it a Friday instrument.

Best course is to clean and yes hide glue it, of course you could always fit splines (basically a biscuit joint) and have it permanently done and stronger, titebond will work as well, but you would possibly always see some form of flexing happening at that point.

As far as done a few, yep"........., we average at least one a week for last 20 yrs, so that's roughly 1000 broken necks repaired 

Steve

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MysTiK PiKn

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## Bernie Daniel

> I agree with John, the original neck fit up by manufacturer may have been a little lapse, let's call it a Friday instrument.
> 
> Best course is to clean and yes hide glue it, of course you could always fit splines (basically a biscuit joint) and have it permanently done and stronger, titebond will work as well, but you would possibly always see some form of flexing happening at that point.
> 
> As far as done a few, yep"........., we average at least one a week for last 20 yrs, so that's roughly 1000 broken necks repaired 
> 
> Steve


Steve that is a failed joint between the old neck wood and under lay that I put on about 4 - 5 year ago to repair a neck break.

That specifically answers the question that John raise too --i.e., it is not a fresh break.   

I am thinking of cleaning it out old  glue with a strand of wet yarn or maybe cotton string?  I would have tried to clean it before but was worried that water might weaken the glue farther up in the break and case the separation area to grow?

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## Bernie Daniel

Again not trying to steal this thread but this is more on mandolin neck repairs and maybe this post will give the OP some ideas on what could be done?

I've been thinking about the failed repair that I pictured in #22 of this thread.  Here is a diagram of that issue.  

Since cleaning out the crack (red dashed line) will be hard and problematic and the gluing surface is not ideal anyway, maybe I could just cut it out and insert a new piece of maple over it?  

I could stain the inserted maple a dark red-brown so it would not be an eye sore.  

Diagram below is probably self-explanatory



Or one could go this way?  But probably diagram #1 is the best?

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## sunburst

Your diagrams both show end grain butt joints: not good.
I'm not convinced of the wisdom of the graft approach, but something like this would be better because there is no real end grain joint. The fit would need to be very good (chalk fit) for the repair to be viable.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Your diagrams both show end grain butt joints: not good.
> I'm not convinced of the wisdom of the graft approach, but something like this would be better because there is no real end grain joint. The fit would need to be very good (chalk fit) for the repair to be viable.


Thanks for the input. So short of a new neck would any approach be better than a graft?

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## sunburst

I don't know.
A lot depends on the presence, depth and size of a truss rod and truss rod pocket. Grafting on a whole new peghead, or grafting on the existing peghead with the damaged wood removed and replaced with new wood, sort of like a double graft would probably be a good repair. Some wood pieced in between the neck shaft and peghead, that is. It would require removing the truss rod, doing the repair, then re-cutting the slot and replacing the truss rod. 
I might decide to just glue the opening that's there and hope for the best.

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Bernie Daniel

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## Jeff Mando

> I might decide to just glue the opening that's there and hope for the best.


That's what I was thinking.  It might hold.

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## Bernie Daniel

> I don't know.
> A lot depends on the presence, depth and size of a truss rod and truss rod pocket. Grafting on a whole new peghead, or grafting on the existing peghead with the damaged wood removed and replaced with new wood, sort of like a double graft would probably be a good repair. Some wood pieced in between the neck shaft and peghead, that is. It would require removing the truss rod, doing the repair, then re-cutting the slot and replacing the truss rod. 
> I might decide to just glue the opening that's there and hope for the best.


OK, Thanks!   I think I'll try that first -- after all what have I got to lose?

I don't have any hide glue crystals right now but I'll just buy a few packets of Knox unflavored gelatin at Krogers tomorrow. 

One recipe I have is 35 mls of water and one packet of gelatin.

I'll heat the glue to 140 degrees F and then use a syringe and needle to irrigate the inside surfaces on the neck opening two or three times -- i.e., use the hot glue solution to flush out the dirt and old glue. 

Then I'll squirt in another syringe of fresh clean glue and clamp it.

I should be able to fit of the caul and clamp up in about than 15 seconds.

Then we'll see what happens!  

Note to OP in case you did not know it Knox gelatin is essentially very pure and expensive hide glue!  Might come in handy to glue up your neck too!   :Smile:

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## Wes Brandt

Is fish glue that common for instrument making? I have heard very little about it.

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## mirwa

Cleanliness is the most important thing when regluing a surface, steam works great, alcohol is good too.

Johns graft is better because you eliminate an end grain join, personally I do niot feel the need for a complete back plate or graft, two splines out of a wood like maple are super strong

This is a photo of one of the 335's we did this week, 

It had cracked twice, so we always fit splines when a headstock comes in and has been previously repaired by someone

-    First photo, the cracked head just above its already repaired crack which was also around the manufacturers join. 
-    Second photo, splines fitted initial air brushing to colour the splines and initial crack line
-    Third photo full cover coat of colour and re-assembled

Steve

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Bernie Daniel, 

darylcrisp, 

MysTiK PiKn

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## mirwa

Now this is probably one of the worst we had to repair, still looking for a finished photo

The point, anything can be repaired, with very little evidence of having ever existed

Steve

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Bernie Daniel, 

darylcrisp

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## Bernie Daniel

> Is fish glue that common for instrument making? I have heard very little about it.


Maybe not so common but used just the same?  There is information on Roger Siminoff's web page about it.

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## darylcrisp

i think Taylor guitar company is using some sort of fish glue on some models now-will do more research and if I find out exacts i'll post here again.

d

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## Tom Haywood

The OP's description sounds like a broken headstock, but I guess it could be a joint separation between the headstock and neck. Photos are absolutely necessary to get any good advice, but a headstock repair or joint repair is the likely solution rather than a neck replacement. Much cheaper and likely much stronger than the original. Good advice already given on who to call. Posting photos here is easy but not intuitive. Here's how it works on my PCs. When you choose "insert image" while in the reply box you will get a dialogue box that looks like you are ready to simply choose your photo and post it, but there's more to do. First, select the button at the bottom that says "Browse", then choose the tab at the top that says "Computer", find your image file on the computer and click it. The name of that file will now appear in the dialogue box. Click the "Upload" button and wait a minute or so while it uploads. When it finishes there will be a path/file name showing in the reply box on the cafe. Click "Post Reply" to submit it and the photo will magically appear with your post. Complicated to figure out but easy once you get it.

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## Bernie Daniel

> OK, Thanks!   I think I'll try that first -- after all what have I got to lose?
> 
> I don't have any hide glue crystals right now but I'll just buy a few packets of Knox unflavored gelatin at Krogers tomorrow. 
> 
> One recipe I have is 35 mls of water and one packet of gelatin.
> 
> I'll heat the glue to 140 degrees F and then use a syringe and needle to irrigate the inside surfaces on the neck opening two or three times -- i.e., use the hot glue solution to flush out the dirt and old glue. 
> 
> Then I'll squirt in another syringe of fresh clean glue and clamp it.
> ...


Is it true that you can use hot hide glue to bond two damp or wet wood surfaces?  I assume it must be OK because the glue is water-based but many things I assume about glues are often not true!   :Smile:

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## skygazer

> Now this is probably one of the worst we had to repair, still looking for a finished photo
> 
> The point, anything can be repaired, with very little evidence of having ever existed
> 
> Steve


Maybe I've worked on fiberglass boats too much. But when I look at that horrible break, I can't see why you would use hide glue. Not like you ever need to separate it again to work on the guitar.

I would use a high quality marine epoxy, totally weather proof and seemingly permanent. I can't think of a single instance where something (including loads of wood) that I epoxied fell apart or broke again in that spot.

Nice clean shatter should go right back together. 

If there is some good reason to use hide glue please explain it to the uninitiated ignorant sailors among us. Thanks!

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## skygazer

> It had cracked twice, so we always fit splines when a headstock comes in and has been previously repaired by someoneSteve


I really like the splines, super strong!

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## sunburst

Sailors and boat builders are "always" wondering why luthiers don't use epoxy. They've used epoxy for boats "forever', it works, it's strong, it's waterproof... why don't we luthiers see the light, come to our senses and use epoxy? As craftsmen, we sometimes have a tendency to want to apply our preferred methods and materials to tasks that we are not as familiar with as our usual work.

The biggest advantage of epoxy, especially in boat building is; it's waterproof. We don't need waterproof in instruments, except in cases of occasional accidents. Suffice it to say, we don't normally have to plan for immersion in water when we choose materials for instruments. Another advantage of epoxy is it's gap-filling properties. When we can't get a good glue joint because parts don't fit well, we can still get them to stick together if we use epoxy. Joining dissimilar materials is another use for epoxy. For example, wood and carbon fiber.
Hot hide glue resists tensile failure about as well as epoxy, it forms a much thinner glue line so it is less visible in a joint or in a repair, it resists dry heat better than epoxy, something that shouldn't matter; we shouldn't have to plan for excessive heat any more than for immersion in water, but many of the same people who would never put their mandolin in the swimming pool _will_ leave it in the hot car in the summer.
As long as we have a good joint or a good fit between broken parts in an instrument repair, we get a joint plenty strong using hot hide glue. We get a thin, often invisible glue line that doesn't show badly under dyes and finishes, we get high heat resistance, and when the part breaks again, we have a glue that we can clean off and/or work with when doing subsequent repairs.
There are situations where epoxy is a good choice in luthierie, dissimilar materials, gaps, end grain joints, that sort of thing, but when the wooden parts _fit_ and a good side grain glue joint can be made, hide glue has the advantage in most cases.

Frankly, the broken headstock in Mirwa's picture doesn't look that bad to me. The wood is split along the grain, and as long as good alignment and fit can be accomplished, I would have good confidence in a hide glue repair. When the neck wood is fractured across the grain, that is when splines and possibly epoxy can come into play. Whatever broke that thing, that could happen again, and if it does, repairing it a second time will be an easier job if there is hide glue in there rather than epoxy.
For me, the decision to use epoxy in a broken neck repair is the last choice before a full replacement of the neck. In other words, the neck is so badly broken that it is a judgement call whether to repair or replace it, and sometimes vintage originality can be a part of that decision. If the neck gets broken again, it will probably be time for a replacement, so the CF splines and epoxy that I've used in fractured necks will probably not be a problem for the next repairer, who will probably be replacing the neck.

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Charles E., 

darylcrisp, 

MysTiK PiKn, 

skygazer

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## skygazer

> Sailors and boat builders are "always" wondering why luthiers don't use epoxy....Hot hide glue resists tensile failure about as well as epoxy, it forms a much thinner glue line so it is less visible in a joint or in a repair...


Thank you John for that excellent and detailed answer and explanation.!!   :Cool: 

Very enlightening.

After I posted I did consider that the epoxy line would always show unless you were to paint over it. Forget staining, no chance.

And I hadn't even thought about vintage instruments. 

I do only consider epoxy when I'm sure that it will never need to come apart again. Otherwise I use a glue.

Personally, I also get things wet so waterproof is good. My first handmade guitar spent almost it's entire outdoors, often behind my bed in a tipi, sometimes on a boat or in the boathouse, even @ 20° below zero F. Guess it was well made, still fine! I'm extremely careful about thermal shock, easier to avoid than occasional wet.

My "new" vintage '20's mandolin has camped out every night  in an open tarp since I got it, and it's rained every night. I purchased it in a thunderstorm. Maybe it's a rainmaker.   :Grin:

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MysTiK PiKn

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## mirwa

> Frankly, the broken headstock in Mirwa's picture doesn't look that bad to me. The wood is split along the grain, and as long as good alignment and fit can be accomplished, I would have good confidence in a hide glue repair.


I totally agree.

If the customer had a first time crack and that was the crack, I would glue it and send it on its way. 

But

If a neck has cracked before I always recommend putting a set of splines in it as an option. On that neck the customer took our advice and went the splines, I even guarantee that those splines will never ever break, that is how confident I am of the strength imparted to the headstock area.

Steve

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## mirwa

This one came in on friday, we have not touched it.

The guy bought it new in japan in a store and then flew back to australia, when he got it out of its case he found it cracked, next time he went back to japan, he had it repaired, lets agree the repair is a bit average looking, he has then flown back to australia only to find again its broken

I offered to him the simple glue and clamp but recommended it get splined, he has taken the spline option as well, so this will be done on monday, I guarantee him it will never crack again, 

I think when we repair headstocks, you have to give some consideration to its use or abuse, if its been repaired once and broken again, then its likely to keep happening, be that due to its design, use, abuse, or the handling of it from others. So preventative measures are sometimes a good option, all of course IMO

Steve

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darylcrisp

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## darylcrisp

> This one came in on friday, we have not touched it.
> 
> The guy bought it new in japan in a store and then flew back to australia, when he got it out of its case he found it cracked, next time he went back to japan, he had it repaired, lets agree the repair is a bit average looking, he has then flown back to australia only to find again its broken
> 
> I offered to him the simple glue and clamp but recommended it get splined, he has taken the spline option as well, so this will be done on monday, I guarantee him it will never crack again, 
> 
> I think when we repair headstocks, you have to give some consideration to its use or abuse, if its been repaired once and broken again, then its likely to keep happening, be that due to its design, use, abuse, or the handling of it from others. So preventative measures are sometimes a good option, all of course IMO
> 
> Steve


Steve
please post a picture when it has been repaired.
thanks
d

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## Scott L

If you are in Northern CA, you should give Michael Lewis a call.  He is someone who knows mandolins and is a master builder.  He also does repair and restoration work...NFI.

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## Vernon Hughes

Here's a testament to hide glue..My dad set his brand new kala uke bass behind the car to load up for a gig,forgot something,ran into the house and forgot to load it. Backed right over it packed in the gig bag. The first pic is how it came to me, the second is after reglueing and in the drop filling lacquer phase and the other two are after finishing up and restringing. It's holding up just fine with no splines.Just glued the major pieces back together first and added the smaller splinters after that.What a puzzle it was.

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skygazer

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## Bernie Daniel

Pretty dang awesome Vernon. Dad must have been pretty pleased!  :Smile: 
Did he up your allowance?   :Smile:

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Vernon Hughes

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## Bernie Daniel

OK.  Well when the OP comes back with his pics I'll step aside -- meanwhile I'd like to try another idea on this mandolin neck break I am dealing with.  

This new approach closer to Steve's idea of a spline and kind of draws on John's idea of what the shape of the ideal graft should look like (see post #31 in this string).  This avoids end grain butt joint issues.

Why couldn't I just use a biscuit cutter and put a hard wood biscuit over the separation?  See shown in the diagram below.  It would be a neat clean repair with proper matching up the cutting wheel and the biscuit size/shape it should be a nice tight fit?

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## skygazer

> Backed right over it packed in the gig bag.


Nice job! That is why I'm always asking my wife not to set anything behind my trucks, put it alongside on the driver's side. After the ol' cup of coffee left on the roof above the driver's door, things behind are the most common wrecker.

----------

MysTiK PiKn, 

Vernon Hughes

----------


## Spruce

> OK.  Well when the OP comes back with his pics I'll step aside...

----------

Grommet, 

MikeEdgerton

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> 


 :Laughing:   Now now!

----------


## Wes Brandt

> This one came in on friday, we have not touched it.
> 
> The guy bought it new in japan in a store and then flew back to australia, when he got it out of its case he found it cracked, next time he went back to japan, he had it repaired, lets agree the repair is a bit average looking, he has then flown back to australia only to find again its broken
> 
> I offered to him the simple glue and clamp but recommended it get splined, he has taken the spline option as well, so this will be done on monday, I guarantee him it will never crack again, 
> 
> I think when we repair headstocks, you have to give some consideration to its use or abuse, if its been repaired once and broken again, then its likely to keep happening, be that due to its design, use, abuse, or the handling of it from others. So preventative measures are sometimes a good option, all of course IMO
> 
> Steve


I have seen lots of these newer Gibson Whatevers,  broken in the neck/pegehead area and often because the case fell ...or it mysteriously occurred…

Those Grovers weigh I think 2 1/2 times the amount of the original Klusons that Gibsons used to use, really heavy machines… that and the fact that a huge amount of wood is removed for the truss rod nut …these breaks should not be a surprise, especially to Gibson, and I have recommended to people, if they love their guitar, that they switch back to some vintage style tuners ...like Kluson copies that are stamped, not cast. 

It's about all that weight on a weak lever.

----------

Bernie Daniel

----------


## Spruce

> It's about all that weight on a weak lever.


...and has been.........like.........._forever_.

All those 'Bursts with their $100K neck snaps come to mind...
Ugh.

----------


## string dude

Attachment 136894

----------

MysTiK PiKn

----------


## string dude

Here's what My Jam Master Gibson looks like.

----------


## Vernon Hughes

Lots of good glue surface there.

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## Jeff Mando

Should be an easy repair with no splines required.  Looks like it should go back together perfectly with very little wood missing.  I just repaired a Les Paul Special that had an almost identical break and it came out fine.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Just make sure you take it to a competent luthier to do the repair. If you tell us what town you're near it might make it easier to recommend someone.

----------


## mirwa

> Here's what My Jam Master Gibson looks like.


Real easy one. Titebond if your going to do it yourself, a local luthier will use the same or hide glue

Steve

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## mirwa

> Why couldn't I just use a biscuit cutter and put a hard wood biscuit over the separation?


You could, thats all glorified splines are. They are just on the smaller size than what most people would use. The goal with a spline is to maximise glue surface area, and introduce long grain into the area of concern

Steve

----------

Bernie Daniel

----------


## string dude

I was told that hide glue & a "Back Strap", would do the job. My bummer is that my Gibson investment is now compromised, & I've lost the future investment value for my kids & wife, when I'm gone. Bottom line. I just want to play my nice Gibson mandolin.I would prefer  a new neck, with the Gibson logo attached. I'm so glad I'm really a harmonica, Guitar, songwriter. Thinking there's a song in the works when this is all said & done.

----------


## Spruce

> I was completely shocked, because I did nothing to make this happen.


Ummmm............errrrrr...........ahhhhh.........  never mind.

Just out of curiosity, are we looking at maple or mahogany??




> I was told that hide glue & a "Back Strap", would do the job.


Nah, just glue it up...no "Back Strap".
But make a _major_ effort to collect every single little shard that might be hanging around the case (or wherever)...
Did this happen while in the case?  
I'm guessing "yes", and I'm also guessing that the case took a major hit at some point recently...

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## MikeEdgerton

No splines, no dowels, no biscuits, it should be glued and clamped and don't buy instruments as investments. 

Make sure you take it to a luthier that knows what they are doing (again). Whomever told you to put the back strip in isn't the guy.

This break was glued about 10 years ago by me and was undetectable after it was finished. It's still going strong. I used hide glue.

----------

MysTiK PiKn

----------


## Wes Brandt

> ...and has been.........like.........._forever_.
> 
> All those 'Bursts with their $100K neck snaps come to mind...
> Ugh.


Hey Bruce 

Yes it has always been a problem but with Grover full size sealed gear tuners now it's considerably worse, I just weighed a set of original Klusons with butterfly buttons and a set of Rotmatics  both with their bushings

Klusons  147 grams,  Grovers  260 grams  Quite a difference when your using a lever. It's another thing to keep in mind when choosing tuners the ones with cast plates are gonna be heavier.


.Nowthe tricky part gluing this break will be getting glue in those two splits on the left side (of the photo)  they may not want to open much...

----------


## Spruce

> Klusons  147 grams,  Grovers  260 grams  Quite a difference when your using a lever. It's another thing to keep in mind when choosing tuners the ones with cast plates are gonna be heavier.


Good point that I never even considered...
Maybe _that's_ why you see so many vintage Firebirds--with those huge banjo-esque tuners--with past neck repairs...     :Crying:

----------


## Wes Brandt

I just noticed those tuners on the Jam Master are cast AND they even look extra heavy duty…

I'm pretty sure it's mahogany …which can be more fragile than maple as well.

----------


## Jeff Mando

I agree maple is stronger than mahogany, as a rule. (you see a lot more Gibson's with broken pegheads than Fender's)  Not sure I buy into the "heavy tuner" theory.  This mandolin was damaged by an impact.  It didn't just topple over because the tuners were too heavy.

----------


## string dude

It's a maple neck, & I never dropped it. Honestly I just opened the case & found the neck cracked. I take care of all my instruments. I still own & play my original vinyl Beatles, Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, etc. They're in great condition. I grew up really poor, & I never had much in the way toys & such. As an adult the universe has taken care of me & my family, so I appreciate what has come my way. Folks I really appreciate all your advice, but this thread is getting a little out there with opinions that really don't need to be addressed. Thanks, & I'll take it from here. This is maybe the second time I've ever posted, & I've been on this site for a long time.

----------


## Spruce

Good luck with your mandolin, string dude...

----------


## mirwa

> It's a maple neck, & I never dropped it.


From the photos, the wood actually looks like mahogany, mahogany has a slight brownish colour to it, where as maple is white, the fracture line is also consistent to how mahogany can tear itself out.

Ive had guitars / mandolins / ukes and so forth come in with snapped necks and still in there case, just means the case has taken a jolt and fallen over, the string tension on the neck takes care of the rest and wolla its cracked.

It really is an easy repair that one, and done by someone who is good at it, will be practically invisible.

Gibson should be ashamed of there employee if he reckons its not repairable

Steve

----------


## hank

There are a lot of iffy places on most vintage instruments neck to body and headstock area I've seen.  The seller always says they are just fine.  No damage here!  It's just some imperfections in the wood.  Their should be a disclosure of previous repairs in a perfect world.  After reading this my trust is taking a nose dive.

----------


## Wes Brandt

> I agree maple is stronger than mahogany, as a rule. (you see a lot more Gibson's with broken pegheads than Fender's)  Not sure I buy into the "heavy tuner" theory.  This mandolin was damaged by an impact.  It didn't just topple over because the tuners were too heavy.


Not that it fell over from the extra weight but that if it did fall or get a bump, the extra weight makes the shock that much worse ….especially because the peg head behaves like a lever with the fulcrum at the nut…. where the case support often is as well.

----------


## darylcrisp

stringdude

my father in law handed over his Gibson J45 a couple years ago to my wife. when he was around 11 years old his father brought it home for him to learn. never had a case. thru the years he carried it all over the world while in the nave-without a case.  somewhere along the line his dog put some mild teeth imprints in a corner(when he was 12 I think), then, when his oldest daughter was 19yrs old, he had the Gibson sitting in a chair unattended, she bumped the chair, the guitar went sideways and the headstock cracked sideways and jagged(similar to yours but different direction). he put it back together and glued it. it looks straight and square but you see the jagged lines(he didn't refinish the area). so that daughter is around 46, so that break happened give or take 27 years ago.

the guitar plays fine, truss rod works fine. the only issues are the nut and saddle are worn down in the slots and such. frets are worn down also. all from a lot of play. one day soon I intend to refret and cut a new nut and saddle for it.

so good luck with your Gibson, I think you've had some excellent advice here on this thread with some folks with huge knowledge on this issue. keep us posted on the outcome.
d

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> I agree maple is stronger than mahogany, as a rule. (you see a lot more Gibson's with broken pegheads than Fender's)  Not sure I buy into the "heavy tuner" theory.  This mandolin was damaged by an impact.  It didn't just topple over because the tuners were too heavy.


F = ma

Force equals mass times acceleration.   Whether the mass of the tuners is the *sole* reason who can say? 

But it easily could be the proverbial straw that broke the camels back in some cases?  

A free fall that ends up with a sudden stop against a hard, stationary  or massive object  (mv = mv) the increased mass would be "working against" the neck.  

So it can't help and has to hurt!  :Smile: 

Good thread!

----------


## ferrousgeek

> It's a maple neck, & I never dropped it. Honestly I just opened the case & found the neck cracked. I take care of all my instruments. I still own & play my original vinyl Beatles, Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, etc. They're in great condition. I grew up really poor, & I never had much in the way toys & such. As an adult the universe has taken care of me & my family, so I appreciate what has come my way. Folks I really appreciate all your advice, but this thread is getting a little out there with opinions that really don't need to be addressed. Thanks, & I'll take it from here. This is maybe the second time I've ever posted, & I've been on this site for a long time.


Agreed. I've tried to refrain from posting, since this thread has gone off in so many directions. But going back to the original post I still can't help but wonder:
Was this mandolin purchased new, therefore potentially under warranty? If so, I believe many of the comments posted w/out the aid of a photo or first hand knowledge, however well intended, probably worked against the OP in his claim with Gibson.

----------


## mirwa

Unfortunately it's not something that would be covered under warranty.

----------


## Bill Snyder

> Agreed. I've tried to refrain from posting, since this thread has gone off in so many directions. But going back to the original post I still can't help but wonder:
> Was this mandolin purchased new, therefore potentially under warranty? If so, I believe many of the comments posted w/out the aid of a photo or first hand knowledge, however well intended, probably worked against the OP in his claim with Gibson.


Looking at the photos I would be surprised if Gibson (or any builder) would cover that break under warranty.

----------


## ferrousgeek

> Looking at the photos I would be surprised if Gibson (or any builder) would cover that break under warranty.


Not saying they would or wouldn't, should or shouldn't. Just saying a lot of the comments and advice were given w/out the benefit of a photo or first hand info. and were made before the OP had an assessment from Gibson. Comments which may or may not have hindered his situation. That said, the OP did post on a public forum, before resolution from Gibson, and left the door wide open for any and all opinions. All of which could be moot if the instrument was not purchased new, which we do not know, or if the damage was clearly caused by an impact.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Just to put everything into perspective there is a reason I asked if he was the original purchaser. Honestly mandolin people don't always do well trying to get warranty work done through normal channels at Gibson. When someone has an issue that we can help with by referring them to someone closer to the division building mandolins we do that. When someone won't answer that simple question we really can't help them. That doesn't mean that we have some magical direct line to Gibson, but in the past we've been able to help a few folks resolve issues. With that said the best line back to Gibson is to take it back to the store you purchased it from and let them work it through for you. I'm not sure either would have helped on this one.

----------

ferrousgeek, 

MysTiK PiKn

----------


## Jeff Mando

> I did nothing to make this happen. There was a hair line mark in the area, that I thought was just a finish/ varnish crack. I guess it was an actual wood crack.The tension on the neck I presume just gave out, & it just snapped.


Just trying to be helpful and get to the bottom of this, "my mandolin just exploded in its case and nobody touched it" situation, which, of course, defies logic.....

Another theory: some people leave their strap attached and with some cases there isn't enough room to close the case unless you position the strap just so.  If this is a possibility -- the strap could have been "wadded" under the peghead, providing enough force, when the case was closed that the fulcrum was the area that broke, since the body had no where to go inside the case.

I watch a lot of Forensic Files on tv.

Not trying to assess blame.  All that really matters now is that it is broken and must be repaired.  But good info to know for future prevention.

----------


## Wes Brandt

What ever initial cause you would think by now Gibson would have done something about what is a truly obvious design flaw at least they could minimize the cutout go to 1/4 "  nuts  ...I've seen some Gibsons with really un-nessesarily large and deep cutouts that go almost through the peg head take a close look at OP photo.

----------


## Jeff Mando

Sssssh!  It keeps us repairmen in business.....

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> ...But going back to the original post I still can't help but wonder:
> Was this mandolin purchased new, therefore potentially under warranty? If so, I believe many of the comments posted w/out the aid of a photo or first hand knowledge, however well intended, probably worked against the OP in his claim with Gibson.


Not really a big concern IMO.

Purchased with warranty or purchased from the tenth owner there would be essentially zero probability that Gibson Inc. would consider that damage to have occurred under "normal usage". 

At some point in time that Gibson Jam master mandolin took a fall (or received excessive force on the neck via some other mechanism) either in the case or out of it -- apparently this happened in a situation where the owner did not see it or know about it.

But there is a better chance of winning the Power Ball lottery than for such a break to happen spontaneously as a result of a flaw in the wood.  If it had happened the first time the mandolin was strung up maybe?  But years later the flaw suddenly comes to light?  I say no way.

Hopefully this mandolin will soon be repaired and playing again.

----------


## string dude

My youngest son thought it was pretty lame that I bought a Mandolin. "you're a guitar player Dad". Dam I should have bought that National Reso- Rocket instead.

----------


## MysTiK PiKn

I would play out all the small options.  

Return it to store.  See if they have any pull.

And contact Gibson again - given that the initial contact was not a source of best advice.


The OP's comment about noticing a finish crack? 
Take 1000 pix of your new gibson - and there's the history of these problems.

Forensics?  Not a bad idea. Impact evidence? Flaw in the wood?
We don't know anything about the case - fit? impact? strap wadding? etc.? brand of case?
And we don't know the history at the factory, since the factory, at the retailer, since the retailer.
There's a lot of possibilities.

Taking on gibson's lawyers? Would they go that far? that's a painful process.

There's a few possible recovery conversations that are possible - but it may all just come down to bite the bullet. Myself, I would try however I could - and then let it go. Holding on to this forever = no - do what you can and let it go.

And for repair?  REPEAT the call for one of those better luthiers in California.  Frank Ford at Gryphon? why not? .... He has amazing restorations posted on his site.

As for mahogany vs maple - an heirloom would be maple in my opinion, whatever that's worth.

And note I am posting this to relieve my own frustrations with this painful scenario = fully deal with it, and move on = that's likely my best advice. Peace of mind is more valuable.

----------


## hank

I disagree entirely.  Continued stress in a weak area(the crack that was assumed to be a poor joint area has been visible to the op) can eventually fail catastrophically without an impact.  I have seen it many times in both wooden and metal parts in aviation. Vibration through normal usage and especially heavy handed banjo duels could cause a fault line to open up enough to only need a temperature change or minor bump to completely fail under the stress of string tension.  There may be evidence of the older original separation before complete failure.

----------


## Grommet

String Dude-
I know exactly the pain you felt when you saw the damage to your instrument. Sure, you want a new neck with the Gibson name on it. But, in breaks like this one a solid repair is routine. I had a used 1956 Gibson Southern Jumbo that was accidentally sat on by a friend. The peghead broke right off, but like yours, it had a lot of gluing surface. Violin and guitar builder Nicholas Mushkin in Las Vegas glued the break with hot hide glue for fifty bucks (circa 1972). I never regretted the decision to have it professionally repaired. I went on playing it for another 15 years and earned a master degree studying under the professor who sat on it! Your instrument is not ruined, it deserves a good repair. And professional luthiers/instrument repair folk are generally worthy of our trust. I wish you the best of outcomes in resolving this.

Scott

----------


## mandroid

2+ weeks late on this ...  Still got the 1st owner New Sales receipt?
though may not be a warrantee claim item ..

In- the- case whiplash from the case falling downor  getting banged around ,  in transit?

it's happened.

----------


## pianoman89

> I disagree entirely.  Continued stress in a weak area(the crack that was assumed to be a poor joint area has been visible to the op) can eventually fail catastrophically without an impact.  I have seen it many times in both wooden and metal parts in aviation. Vibration through normal usage and especially heavy handed banjo duels could cause a fault line to open up enough to only need a temperature change or minor bump to completely fail under the stress of string tension.  There may be evidence of the older original separation before complete failure.


As a physics student and luthier, these were my thoughts exactly. Wood can fail one fiber at a time, and there is plenty of force on that area  to snap a weakened neck without the need of impact. The evidence of this is that there was already a visible crack present, even when the neck was holding under tension. The fibers in the wood may fail slowly at first, from forces caused by normal use, vibrations while playing, etc. As the outer fibers fail, the time it takes for fibers further in towards the pivot point will decrease, eventually happening very rapidly and causing failure like this. 

I also noticed the truss rod access is cut really deep on this one. It was just a matter of time....

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> As a physics student and luthier, these were my thoughts exactly. Wood can fail one fiber at a time, and there is plenty of force on that area  to snap a weakened neck without the need of impact. The evidence of this is that there was already a visible crack present, even when the neck was holding under tension. The fibers in the wood may fail slowly at first, from forces caused by normal use, vibrations while playing, etc. As the outer fibers fail, the time it takes for fibers further in towards the pivot point will decrease, eventually happening very rapidly and causing failure like this. 
> 
> I also noticed the truss rod access is cut really deep on this one. It was just a matter of time....


So you are arguing it is a warranty claim then?   I think Gibson would say in their over 100 years experience they've never seen that happen and would not honor it.  

If the failure were to have happened like you suggest I don't think it would look like as catastrophe as that break does.  It would be a slow release as the last fiber holding it gave way to slip past equilibrium you would have *almost* left enough strength left to hold and it would slow deform or give way  It certainly would not separate into multiple pieces like that IMO.  Liken it to cutting down a tree or even better cutting a limb with a power saw -- the limb starts to give way SLOWLY not violently.

----------


## MysTiK PiKn

If this is such a common issue, and if we know that the truss rod access is part of it, and if we know how neck/pegheads are constructed, and if we know about grain, and if we know about variations in wood, and if we see many people suffering with expensive instruments that are/were lifetime warranted against defects in workmanship and materials, and if (several other considerations) are also potentially in play; then surely there must be an avenue of appeal.  

If there is none, then the instrument should come with a clear warning that if anything ever goes wrong with this delicate area, there will be no warranty or recourse.  This is hard to believe; and a large call to 'accept'.

There must be more to this position/situation.  And I don't know.

I have seen so many broken neck threads lately, and even more on both mandolins and guitars over the years.  And it just goes on and on.  I am pretty darned careful with how I park my mandolin.  Sometimes it gets leaned against something.  Most times, I tend to leave it lying flat somewhere, so it can't fall - and then I consider someone sitting on it.  It has become quite the neurotic situation.  I am sure others have had similar experience with this area of gross paranoia.  And the OP here has stated he is much like myself with his personal belongings - he takes care and consideration.  Not everyone does; this is known fact.  And so, things go wrong; but are we all to accept the lowest common denominator?  And investment in a quality brand seems to lose respect in a hurry - is it just that we are 'on our own' at the mercy of a questionable starting point?  And 'good luck'?

Some truss rod installs feature access from inside the body near the neck block.  That's awkward with closed up bodies such as Fstyles or Astyles.  But would the idea tend to increase strength at the head end?  Design flaw?  I don't know.  Sometimes I wish I were a lawyer; other times, I'm glad I'm not.  But this is not just an A or Fstyle - note the oval sound hole.  An alt truss rod seems available.  And perhaps the entire design is long overdue for review.  There must be millions of breaks like this - it seems it doesn't mean anything.  When did (someone) just sign off on this.  When did this become 'use at your own risk'.  It seems normal usage has occurred and the break is to be expected. Perhaps the message is that we should only invest in cheap instruments - am I really reaching at this point?  If you own a high end mandolin - how do you cope with this wall of evidence? 

wow.  :Disbelief:

----------


## MysTiK PiKn

> So you are arguing it is a warranty claim then?   I think Gibson would say in their over 100 years experience they've never seen that happen and would not honor it.  
> 
> If the failure were to have happened like you suggest I don't think it would look like as catastrophe as that break does.  It would be a slow release as the last fiber holding it gave way to slip past equilibrium you would have *almost* left enough strength left to hold and it would slow deform or give way  It certainly would not separate into multiple pieces like that IMO.  Liken it to cutting down a tree or even better cutting a limb with a power saw -- the limb starts to give way SLOWLY not violently.


Well, chain saw safety instructors will tell you straight up - there is often no warning, and a surprise break can occur.  There is safe technique to offset these risks.  And still, people get hurt, and trees break up in odd ways.
I run a chainsaw, wood stove, and my property has many trees.  Sometimes I must needs survey a tree for weeks before I can use the right approach, safely.  And even then, it's scary stuff.

Trees fall on their own.  The reason can sometimes be assessed after the fact.  Sometimes a chainsaw can release forces of compression wood very early in the cut.  Think explosion.  But in normal wood, I have watched trees slowly fall - and have seen fibres release one at a time.  It sometimes takes minutes - but this is safety again - one has to know to be safe.

----------


## pianoman89

> So you are arguing it is a warranty claim then?   I think Gibson would say in their over 100 years experience they've never seen that happen and would not honor it.  
> 
> If the failure were to have happened like you suggest I don't think it would look like as catastrophe as that break does.  It would be a slow release as the last fiber holding it gave way to slip past equilibrium you would have *almost* left enough strength left to hold and it would slow deform or give way  It certainly would not separate into multiple pieces like that IMO.  Liken it to cutting down a tree or even better cutting a limb with a power saw -- the limb starts to give way SLOWLY not violently.


No, I don't think a warranty claim is viable here. The fact is that some previous impact occurred, evidenced by the original hairline crack mentioned by the OP. Your limb analogy can be used to show my point. The limb will begin to give way slowly, but as the breaking point is approached, the wood is going to break quicker, finally snapping the last bit. We are working with rotational motion here, so as fibers give way, the next fiber, though it may be as strong as the last, will give way quicker because it has the disadvantage of less torque.

----------


## mirwa

> My youngest son thought it was pretty lame that I bought a Mandolin. "you're a guitar player Dad". Dam I should have bought that National Reso- Rocket instead.


To give you an idea of what finished jobs look like. This one went out yesterday.

Came in with the head in a box and broken neck

This was a 150 dollar repair, with new strings (told  to make it cheap as possible),3 coats of basic brown applied over repair area, and sanded smooth ""not made to be invisible""

To make invisible would be sand the whole neck smooth and respray, then there would be an additional  100 dollars or so

It really is a simple repair for a luthier close to you.

Steve

----------

MysTiK PiKn

----------


## mirwa

This is an invisible repair, cost the guy 240

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

MysTiK PiKn

----------


## Jeff Mando

excellent work, Steve!

----------

mirwa

----------


## darylcrisp

> This is an invisible repair, cost the guy 240


you guys are good....................real good!
d

----------

mirwa

----------


## mirwa

Thanks, but I do not think we are any better than most other repairers, the point of the pictures was to alleviate the concerns of the original poster, his instrument is an easy repair, and should not hurt his pocket too much

----------


## string dude

Ok! I'm back, & I do appreciate some of the more positive points about wood, grain, & stress. I'm not a Luthier. The thing that bothers me is that I am in the wrong & it's my fault, until proven innocent for any wrong doing. Case in point, dropping the instrument, hitting it, etc. I've owned this Mandolin, & yes I bought it new, for 5 years. Alot can happen to any material object one has in that time. I can argue my point until the cows come home, & I probably won't phase the Gibson Guitar Company one bit. So I bite the bullet, & I guess I fix it. AS people have mentioned. I can take it to Gryphon Music ( a 5 hour oneway drive ), or Moonstone Guitars (close & a personal friend ). I have corresponded with both parties so far. Really wish I wasn't such a perfectionist, because I will always know that I have a tweaked neck, & not a solid great condition mandolin. Yea! Like The Eagles sing about. " get over it ". Coincidently comes from their Album, " Hell freezes over ". Yea! It took awhile to post some pics, but I'm a musician, not a computer nerd. .......And the Beat Goes On. Later folks.

----------

hank, 

MysTiK PiKn

----------


## Spruce

...

----------

Bernie Daniel

----------


## mirwa

> I've been thinking about the failed repair that I pictured in #22 of this thread.  Here is a diagram of that issue.





> Your diagrams both show end grain butt joints: not good.
> I'm not convinced of the wisdom of the graft approach, but something like this would be better because there is no real end grain joint. The fit would need to be very good (chalk fit) for the repair to be viable.


Further to johns response, heres some photos of one we did today, exactly as per johns description, the ends are ramped in and out, and long grain wood is fitted into the channels

You should see the other one that came in today for broken headstock repair, 

Steve

----------

Bernie Daniel

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> Further to johns response, heres some photos of one we did today, exactly as per johns description, the ends are ramped in and out, and long grain wood is fitted into the channels
> 
> You should see the other one that came in today for broken headstock repair, 
> 
> Steve


Very neat work!  For a narrower mandolin neck maybe just one wider graft right down the middle of the neck?

----------

mirwa

----------


## Jeff Mando

> You should see the other one that came in today for broken headstock repair, 
> 
> Steve


Steve,
 You must live in an area that is rough on guitars!  LOL

----------

mirwa

----------


## skygazer

> Very neat work!  For a narrower mandolin neck maybe just one wider graft right down the middle of the neck?


I shouldn't respond because I'm ignorant, but it seems that with the truss rod in the center you would be better off going up each side to get solid traction for the glue joint.

Let's see what the experts say....... :Popcorn:

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## hank

This thread brings to light guitar and mandolin structural weaknesses that could be addressed proactively instead of after failure.  It also points to the complete uselessness of the warranty accompanying new instruments when most claims are associated with impact or temperature.  Last but not least it reveals the fact that their are many repairs being made by both qualified luthier's and learn as you go, I can save a buck doing it myself types.  The repairs range from excellent, stronger than original to those performed without clean tight fitting joints or appropriate adhesives.  As unlikely as it is that none of these repaired instruments are being resold, have you ever seen a broken neck repair mentioned or even as a feature of a renovation.  Even if the the repair were documented and disclosed during the first sale after the repair, the information most likely will not be used as a selling point when the instrument is sold again.  Repaired plate cracks or mention of stable cracks or separations are given as reveals in advertising usually reducing the instruments value but no matter how strong or well executed, no one wants to purchase a repaired neck without a huge reduction in the cost of the instrument.  

  The point the OP makes about burden of proof in a guilty until proven innocent scenario points squarely on the worthlessness of a lifetime warranty.  The second point that his mandolin will be compromised/reduced in value unless he replaces the neck with a repair that cost much more than the cheaper glue the shattered pieces together method suggested is also valid.  Armchair failure analyst and grocery store availability of hide glue are not helpful to the OP's honest open request for helpful information to resolve this issue.

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MysTiK PiKn, 

string dude

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## MikeEdgerton

I've had a Taylor, a Martin, and a Gibson back to the factory under warranty. The Taylor went back twice. To simply dismiss the warranty as worthless because of of an unknown cause of damage that looks for all the world like a known cause is a pretty broad brush. Whiplash can occur without an instrument falling. If the instrument is in it's case for example in the back of a car, braced in place and the car suddenly stops the instrument can still move in the case. If anyone needs to redesign something perhaps it is the case so the headstock is sandwiched between padded material and not free to move within the case. Forces can cause issues without people doing a bad thing. That's why they are called accidents.

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Bernie Daniel, 

Spruce

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## hank

Mike can you elaborate on the warranty repairs you had made to show them in context of you not having to prove temperature /humidity or abuse not involved in the approved claim?

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## MikeEdgerton

Sure, lifting bridge, top crack, problem with end pin block, loose brace, neck reset (thanks Martin). Look, as much as some folks want to fault Gibson on this I'm pretty sure any company on face value would have denied that as a warranty claim. I have found that dealing through the dealer you bought it from makes a difference as does the way you approach the company with the problem. I've never had to argue one. That doesn't mean I never will. That same Taylor has developed another problem that I may end up paying for this time, we'll see. There is a serious lump in the fretboard where the neck meets the body. At this point it's an old friend that I hate to see go.

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## Jeff Mando

> At this point it's an old friend that I hate to see go.


The lump or the guitar?

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## Robert Smyth

Hey Danny, there's also Michael Walker up above Wildwood Music in Arcata.  He used to work with Randy Wood in his repair shop in Savannah.  He's a super nice guy so between him and Steve at Moonstone, you should be able to get it fixed properly.

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string dude

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## djweiss

I second what Robert says...Michael Walker has worked on at least 5 different instruments of mine (mandolins and guitars).  I've always been quite happy with his work.

http://www.mwalkerguitarco.com/

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string dude

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## MikeEdgerton

> The lump or the guitar?


The guitar  :Cool:

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## mirwa

> That same Taylor has developed another problem that I may end up paying for this time, we'll see. There is a serious lump in the fretboard where the neck meets the body.


If its a bolt on neck, then its likely someone has got the incorrect shims in, badly fitted shims will give a hump at the 14th, or even worse can blow out the front of the rosette.

If its simply developed over time, then a refret and a neck reset will fix

Steve

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## mirwa

> The point the OP makes about burden of proof in a guilty until proven innocent scenario points squarely on the worthlessness of a lifetime warranty.


As someone who deals with almost every manufacturer direct and makes evaluations and decisions on there behalf in the field (gibson included), lifetime warrantys only apply on something done wrong at manufacture. 

They cannot compensate for everything that each individual instrument may go through out in the real world.

Issues associated with humidity are not covered, but say the top breaking away from the kerfing with no evidence of external trauma is covered, as an assumption is drawn that not enough glue or clamping force was used during assembly, or say the lacquer has dis-coloured on the corners where they used a new glue and its reacted over time, its covered.

Seeing both sides of the story and being the meat in the sandwich can sometimes be frustrating, we are guitar players as well, and are very attached to our own personal instruments.

But on the other side, some people are just nuts, we had one who claimed that a split top should be covered under warranty even though his mate threw a can of beer at him and it hit the guitar, his belief was the guitar should be built well enough to absorb the impact, he even took it all the way to the manufacturer and bi-passed us. 


Steve

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## Bernie Daniel

> I shouldn't respond because I'm ignorant, but it seems that with the truss rod in the center you would be better off going up each side to get solid traction for the glue joint.
> 
> Let's see what the experts say.......


I would propose going down to the truss and essentially putting a new floor of fresh wood (i.e., without a break) on it. I also wonder about the wisdom of making the splint out of ebony  or CF instead of maple?  Get strength and give up some cosmetics?

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## skygazer

> ....But on the other side, some people are just nuts, we had one who claimed that a split top should be covered under warranty even though his mate threw a can of beer at him and it hit the guitar...
> Steve


This is clearly their own fault, if either of them had drunk the beer the empty can would not have done so much damage! Leaving full cans around is not covered under warranty.  :Smile:

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mirwa

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## Bernie Daniel

> This thread brings to light guitar and mandolin structural weaknesses that could be addressed proactively instead of after failure.  It also points to the complete uselessness of the warranty accompanying new instruments when most claims are associated with impact or temperature.  Last but not least it reveals the fact that their are many repairs being made by both qualified luthier's and learn as you go, I can save a buck doing it myself types.  The repairs range from excellent, stronger than original to those performed without clean tight fitting joints or appropriate adhesives.  As unlikely as it is that none of these repaired instruments are being resold, have you ever seen a broken neck repair mentioned or even as a feature of a renovation.  Even if the the repair were documented and disclosed during the first sale after the repair, the information most likely will not be used as a selling point when the instrument is sold again.  Repaired plate cracks or mention of stable cracks or separations are given as reveals in advertising usually reducing the instruments value but no matter how strong or well executed, no one wants to purchase a repaired neck without a huge reduction in the cost of the instrument.  
> 
>   The point the OP makes about burden of proof in a guilty until proven innocent scenario points squarely on the worthlessness of a lifetime warranty.  The second point that his mandolin will be compromised/reduced in value unless he replaces the neck with a repair that cost much more than the cheaper glue the shattered pieces together method suggested is also valid.  Armchair failure analyst and grocery store availability of hide glue are not helpful to the OP's honest open request for helpful information to resolve this issue.


It has been my experience that sellers on the Mandolin Cafe Classifieds have always been up front about repairs.  I've never received an instrument that was significantly misrepresented. 

I did have it happen in one case on an eBay purchase where the seller directly misrepresented, in writing a vintage Gibson guitar  (claim top in original condition when it actually had about 10 cleats) The matter was dealt with satisfactorily via the resolution process. Even in this case I kind of expect the seller never even looked inside with a mirror & light before making the incorrect claim.  So I don't think most sellers misrepresent instruments.

As to guilty until proven innocent part.  The contention that this particular Jam Master had structural flaw and "spontaneously" imploded notwithstanding it is clear that 99% of these breaks occur then the instrument falls off a table or is knocked over. People see it happen in real time usually.

A company like Gibson (or any other company) can hardly be expected just to take someone's word that the instrument imploded in the case with no supporting evidence -- if they did how could ever they draw the line?  They'd have to repair every neck that came in no questions.

The onus has to be on the owner.  If you see a flaw or fault line forming contact someone like your salesperson or at least document with a date marked photo is probably the best approach IMO.

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## Wes Brandt

> What ever initial cause you would think by now Gibson would have done something about what is a truly obvious design flaw at least they could minimize the cutout go to 1/4 "  nuts  ...I've seen some Gibsons with really un-nessesarily large and deep cutouts that go almost through the peg head take a close look at OPs photos.






> Sssssh!  It keeps us repairmen in business.....





> Well I finally heard from Gibson. They seem to think the break is un-repairable, & glueing it would just come apart again. They suggested I buy another mandolin, because it would cost more to fix,than putting on a new neck. ...


Apparently, it helps keep Gibson in business too.

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## Spruce

> As to guilty until proven innocent part.  The contention that this particular Jam Master had structural flaw and "spontaneously" imploded notwithstanding it is clear that 99% of these breaks occur then (sic--"when"?) the instrument falls off a table or is knocked over. People see it happen in real time usually.


Sorry, but you're dead wrong on that one, Bernie.
The correct figure for a neck showing that degree--and that type--of structural damage would be a dead-nuts 100%.

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Bernie Daniel

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## string dude

The mandolin was a 14 year project.  I guess it's time to replace the Gibson, with a Eastman AR 805CE Archtop guitar. I know my way around the guitar way more than I ever will on the mandolin. Hopefully I can get a decent buck for the used Jam Master. I will be honest about the repair job to the new buyer. There's at least 3 good luthiers, close by, to fix the problem. Hopefully it will be without too much of a financial stress. I was thinking I could hang on to the Gibson, after the repair job, as a Beater/beach mandolin, but all this rhetoric about "The Broken Neck", that I honestly started, is leaving me a little un-settled. I really need to move on. Thanks Mandolin cafe, & especially this builders/repair forum for all your input. On aside note. The last thingI want anyone to think is that I'm some kind of hustler, scam artist, un- reputable individual, & I'm trying to hustle The gibson Guitar people. Not true. I'm a good soul, conscientious, spiritual being. Namaste.

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Bernie Daniel, 

darylcrisp, 

hank, 

Spruce

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## mirwa

> I would propose going down to the truss and essentially putting a new floor of fresh wood (i.e., without a break) on it. I also wonder about the wisdom of making the splint out of ebony  or CF instead of maple?  Get strength and give up some cosmetics?


Back plates do work, but there is also a few issues with them, most times the truss rod is within 3mm of the back of the neck at the thinnest point, therefore the backplate is going to be 3mm or less in thickness and the strength imparted to the repair area is minimal, think of taking some of your soundboard and gluing it over the back of the neck and then shaping it up, it does not leave much for imparted strength.

I am not saying do not do it, I am simply trying to highlight what can be gained from doing such a method, 

When we fit splines. we take those splines all the way through until we just touch the fretboard, its not required, but for us its the best process we have found.

Steve

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## skygazer

> When we fit splines. we take those splines all the way through until we just touch the fretboard, its not required, but for us its the best process we have found.
> 
> Steve


I think your splines look super rugged, beyond the strength of new. Not really discussed here is that the grain in the spline runs differently than the grain in the neck, so the same force applied would act differently on the neck and splines, gaining huge strength.

Personally, I would want some type of wood spline as Steve is doing on my instruments, I would NOT want carbon fiber. I know carbon fiber is currently all the rage, and I do like it for many things. BUT, people forget that it is not actually the way it is called. It is *not "carbon fiber",* it is "*carbon fiber reinforced plastic".* In other words, it is plastic!   :Disbelief:   No plastic structural material in my fine instruments thank you! I'm old enough to have seen all types of plastic become brittle over time. Wood and steel can be almost forever if cared for.

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mirwa

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## mirwa

> Steve
> please post a picture when it has been repaired.
> thanks
> d


Ref post #48

Just finished painting this one, customer wants to see the splines, I have just sent them the same picture to make sure.

badge of honour

Pictures a fraction dark, because its still in the paint booth, and lights are overhead

Steve

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## jim simpson

Was tempted to buy a basically new Gibson Blues King at a show. The neck had been broken and pro repaired. Asking price was $1000 but the repair just held me back.

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string dude

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## Bernie Daniel

> Was tempted to buy a basically new Gibson Blues King at a show. The neck had been broken and pro repaired. Asking price was $1000 but the repair just held me back.


Well, not to worry there is another "Lucille" for sale on eBay for about $7 GRAND!   :Smile:

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## skygazer

> Well, not to worry there is another "Lucille" for sale on eBay for about $7 GRAND!


Just what I need, a plywood guitar with no sound holes. Be great for quiet practice.

Oh never mind, I think I'll stick with my Martins.  :Coffee: 

But regarding the repair, the dump truck I have with the repaired frame is my absolute favorite truck, and I know the repair is 10 times stronger than the factory build so I can tackle more with it and not be overly concerned. I have a newer truck with maybe one thousand miles on it, it's OK but not up to the repaired one in my mind.

Plus, the repaired one has custom speakers so good the sound is better than headphones, I hear words in ancient songs that I've never been able to discern before.   :Cool:

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## Kennyz55

What do you cut the neck with to fit the splines?  I have a Kentucky neck that's nbeen glued 3 times and keeps breaking after a few months.

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## mirwa

> What do you cut the neck with to fit the splines?  I have a Kentucky neck that's nbeen glued 3 times and keeps breaking after a few months.


A router.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Just what I need, a plywood guitar with no sound holes. Be great for quiet practice.
> 
> Oh never mind, I think I'll stick with my Martins. .....


HEY!  Wash yer mouth out with soap that's quality *hard wood laminate*!   :Wink: 

Top Wood Species: Maple, Poplar, Maple
Binding: 	7-Ply (W-B-W-B-W-B-W)
Back Wood Species: Maple, Poplar, Maple
Binding: 	3-Ply (W-B-W)
Rim wood: 	Maple, Poplar, Maple
Average Weight (body only): 	2.3541 kg / 5.190 lbs
Glue used:	Franklin Titebond 50

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## skygazer

> HEY!  Wash yer mouth out with soap that's quality *hard wood laminate*!  
> 
> Top Wood Species: Maple, *Poplar*, Maple
> Binding: 	7-Ply (W-B-W-B-W-B-W)
> Back Wood Species: Maple, *Poplar*, Maple
> Binding: 	3-Ply (W-B-W)
> Rim wood: 	Maple, *Poplar*, Maple
> Average Weight (body only): 	2.3541 kg / 5.190 lbs
> Glue used:	Franklin Titebond 50


Yes, poplar is my favorite quality hardwood, only a bit softer than white pine.  :Smile: 

I'm only able to distinguish marine plywood from regular plywood, just can't seem to distinguish a poplar veneer sandwich from regular plywood - oh yeah, they don't use poplar in regular plywood. Have to get the cheap stuff.

Since I was about 8 yrs. old poplar has not been popular with me, I found it extremely weak and disappointing.

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## sunburst

> Yes, poplar is my favorite quality hardwood, only a bit softer than white pine. ...
> ...Since I was about 8 yrs. old poplar has not been popular with me, I found it extremely weak and disappointing.


eastern white pine:

Janka Hardness: 380 lbf (1,690 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 8,600 lbf/in2 (59.3 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 1,240,000 lbf/in2 (8.55 GPa)
Crushing Strength: 4,800 lbf/in2 (33.1 MPa)

tulip poplar:

Janka Hardness: 540 lbf (2,400 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 10,100 lbf/in2 (69.7 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 1,580,000 lbf/in2 (10.90 GPa)
Crushing Strength: 5,540 lbf/in2 (38.2 MPa)

Oh, and for reference, red spruce:

Janka Hardness: 490 lbf (2,180 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 9,580 lbf/in2 (66.0 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 1,560,000 lbf/in2 (10.76 GPa)
Crushing Strength: 4,870 lbf/in2 (33.6 MPa)

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Bernie Daniel, 

Jim Adwell

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## skygazer

> tulip poplar:
> 
> Janka Hardness: 540 lbf (2,400 N)
> Modulus of Rupture: 10,100 lbf/in2 (69.7 MPa)
> Elastic Modulus: 1,580,000 lbf/in2 (10.90 GPa)
> Crushing Strength: 5,540 lbf/in2 (38.2 MPa)


I meant to be more humorous than scientific. But to me tulip poplar means a completely different super tall straight tree that grows well south of here, suitable for war canoes. I think they have some type of upright flower or cone with petals that resemble upright tulips.

What we call poplar here has cotton with seeds.

Poplar up here is a weedy bushy "tree" that grow in almost a colony, spreading by roots I guess. I think of them as good for wildlife when young, and then they blow down. And rot quick.

I appreciate your scientific knowledge however, thank you for sharing!   :Cool:

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## belbein

Hey, I happen to be researching this exact break, though in a banjo.  It turns out that this is really, really common.  It's certainly fixable.  And though I have fought hot hide glue for years, on my practice repair mandolin--with the same kind of break as on my banjo*--the hot hide glue worked great.  I'm not saying it won't be a pain in the butt to fix--you have to make cauls and prepare the HHG and figure out how to get it way down in that crack--but it isn't technically _difficult._

*No, I'm not the one who broke either instruments, and my instruments do not "tend" to have their necks broken, even when they deserve it by not playing up to the standards to which I'd like to become accustomed.

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