# Music by Genre > Old-Time, Roots, Early Country, Cajun, Tex-Mex >  Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle???

## scgc.om

This'll be my 1st post here:  I'm getting *seriously* deep into OT music of late [not forsaking BG - just infatuated with OT these days!

I figured it was time to post a question that's been nagging at me for awhile . . . I figured people here would understand and be able to comment knowledgeably . . . !!

So here's what I'm on about**:  From my perspective so far, OT music is mainly about the Fiddle(s), secondarily (_just_ behind) it's about frailing/clawhammer banjo.  Guitar(s) are just for rhythm.  

That's all that's required for an OT band, right??  A mandolin, if one chooses to show up, are supposed to just chop the off beat.

So here I am, getting totally into the OT scene with an instrument (mandolin) that really doesn't have a place in OT music!!

I try to make my mandolin playing sound like the fiddle line(s).  But is this really even remotely possible?!?!?!!  With all the nuances of the bowing, especially in cross tuning, I'm finding it a real struggle . . . .  I've even thought of trying to learn fiddle -- BAD idea at 57+ yrs old !!

Right now I'm trying to work up  "Back to Fielden"  (Dirk Powell on Hand Me Down).  Sure, when I play along to the CD, I can get a reasonable approximation . . . BUT when I turn off the CD player and listen to what I'm playing, it sounds like I showed up to the swim meet wearing a trenchcoat --  I just don't stand a chance!!

Anyone able to offer encouragement?  Or do I just have to accept that a Mandolin is NOT an OT instrument . . .    :Confused:   ?

All help appreciated.

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## Tom C

With old-time I do not think there would be any choppin'. Play the melody. Get software that slows down the recording and learn the tune. Don't noodle it.

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## Bobbie Dier

Mandolin does have a place in Old Time Music. Jim Watson proves that on these recordings. He really inspired me. I think his mandolin sounds awesome playing melody. If you have never heard any of these recordings you might want to buy a few of them (now available on CD) to get an idea of how good mandolin can sound in old time. They don't just play old time either,there is some celtic and swingy stuff and folk sounding stuff but it is all good. 

http://www.originalredclayramblers.com/music.htm#RCR

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## John Flynn

I'd also recommend you listen to Curtis Buckhannon. He doesn't play fiddle, but he learned his mandolin style and the tunes he plays mostly from fiddle players and fiddle recordings. He does a great job of filling up the "space" that a fiddle usually fills. He has three recordings on the Cafe' MP3 page under the "Old-Time" tab and you can buy B. Brothers CDs here:
http://www.thebuckhannonbrothers.com/

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## evanreilly

Bill Monroe was an old-time fiddle player at heart. He just played it on the mandolin.  Paraphrasing John Hartford.
Monroe's playing of old-time fiddle numbers incorporated lots of fiddle styling, especially the shuffles and double-stops.
Find some live recordings of Monroe going to town on tunes like 'Grey Eagle' and 'Paddy on the Turnpike'.

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## Bruce Evans

> Play the melody. Get software that slows down the recording and learn the tune. Don't noodle it.


Sorry Tom, gotta disagree. OT is folk music, passed on aurally and there is no correct version. One of the things I enjoy about the different instruments in the hands of creative musicians is the variations they come up with - personal and instrument specific. Or perhaps I misunderstood your post. 

scgc, play your mandolin and be proud. Don't try to make it sound like anything but a mandolin. Play lotsa double stop tremolos because that's what mandolins do. Heck, play some triple stops and let the fiddle player try to copy that!

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## stevenmando

I've even thought of trying to learn fiddle -- BAD idea at 57+ yrs old !!   your never to old to learn new stuff Im 59 and thinking about learning fiddle and when it come to the mandolin in Old Time music yes the mandolin has a place it has a place in classical , Bluegrass,jazz it is what you put in to it to make it part of the music thats the magic of the mandolin ,there will be people that say that the mandolin has no place in old time music but when it just come,s down to it people like to just get togeather and play music have fun.

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## Tom C

Noodling vs improvisiing (or making variations) are very different. You need to be able to play the melody. period. If you can;t play the melody, you don't know the tune. If it doesn't sound like the tune, then it all sounds the same. Sure, one could play pentatonics over everything and be "technically" correct and be able to sit in on jams but I like to hear the melody in there.

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## ApK

> Sorry Tom, gotta disagree. OT is folk music, passed on aurally and there is no correct version. One of the things I enjoy about the different instruments in the hands of creative musicians is the variations they come up with - personal and instrument specific. Or perhaps I misunderstood your post.


I'm with Tom.  The old time way of learning a tune was to hear pappy play it over and over on the porch every Sunday.  Listening to the recording is the closest thing most of us have to that.
In OT,  isn't the object is to capture a specific kind of folk music and preserve it?

The true nature of folk music, as you say, learning them, making them your own, taking them from place to place and from culture to culture, is how folk music changes and evolves...how we got from OT to BG to Grunge rock.
That's great, but that's different.

That's not to say that you have to parrot the recording verbatim, but the idea is to learn the elements of that particular kind of folk music and improvise and adapt WITHIN that style.

ApK

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## Fred Keller

This topic comes up from time to time and I think at least part of the reason why is that nobody has yet come up with a definitive mandolin style of old time music.  That's NOT to say there aren't some great mandolinists playing old time (Buckhannon, Kenny Hall, and others), just that--because the mandolin is relatively recent to old time--there isn't the same sort of clear role for the instrument as there is for the banjo or fiddle.

Keep in mind that the fiddle hasn't always been the top dog in old time music either.  If you go back far enough it'll still be there but other instruments will have equal billing--harmonicas, banjolins, dulcimers, etc.

At least two of the approaches you can take are to 1.  follow the fiddle and play leads or 2.  follow the banjo and play more rhythmic accompaniment.  Curtis Buckhannon certainly shows how to do the first and Linda Higginbotham on Brad Leftwich's instruction DVD shows how to do the second.  Essentially she's playing the melody with chords and rhythm.

I tend to think that there's more to do and Mike Compton for me is a guy who shows what a mandolin-centric approach might look like.  He doesn't make any bones about trying to play exactly like a fiddle.  He lays out the tunes for his style and his instrument.

For example, there's nothing wrong with playing the melody of a tune while hitting three or four strings to fill up the sound and add a chorded rhythm element.  Use your right hand for accents that the fiddle can't do.  If the tune is too "notey" to play easily, eliminate a few notes (while still capturing the tune's essence) but add something with your right hand attack or drone strings.  Basically, I try to find what the mandolin can do best and approach the tunes that way.

I always look to the fiddle and banjo for ideas about the soul of the tune but I try not to worry too much about imitating.  Let the mando do what it does best.

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## mandocrucian

> From my perspective so far, OT music is mainly about the Fiddle(s), secondarily (just behind) it's about frailing/clawhammer banjo.


That's pretty much the way I see it. The problem with playing old-time tunes on the mandolin is that more often than not it just comes out sounding bluegrass. So, to get away from that, you can either model your phrasing and pitch choices after the fiddle or the banjo. Or both.  (There, are as has been noted, a few mandolin players who have a more OTM sound to their playing.)

I personally don't particularly care for  the "every-note-with-a-pickstroke" sound. So, I use a lot of hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides, to put more "breath" and lyricism into the tunes and their phrasing/dynamics. It might be a straight transfer of fiddle-bowings, or, it could be Clarence White "I Am A Pilgrim" type playing, but on mandolin.  If you start to emulate the fiddle phrasing/bowings with slurs on the mandolin, you'll start to get closer to that sound. As I have said on the Cafe (and Comando before that)..._How the notes are connected is just as important as the note choice_.

I also started trying to adapt the across-the-strings patterns of clawhammer banjo on the mandolin. When I worked on a project with Larry Rice back in 81-82, he too was putting clawhammer banjo onto the mandolin; the only person I've ever run into that was.  However, it should be noted that Andy Irvine of Planxty listened to a lot of old-time music and banjo and he also has developed his own effective across-the-strings banjoistic way of playing.  I had noticed similarites between my adaptations of clawhammer bajo onto mandolin with the way Irvine played accompaniments.

There are clawhmammer mando arrangements (notation & talbature unless otherwise noted):
*The Mandola Sampler*: Andy Irvine style licks, "Old Man At The Mill", "The 8th of January"  (tablature only)
*Hot Solos For Bluegrass Mandolin*: "Shady Grove"  

Mandocrucian's  Digest #4: "Cold Frosty Morning"
Mandocrucian's  Digest #5: "Jake Gilley"
Mandocrucian's  Digest #6: "Little Sadie"  
Mandocrucian's Digest #11: "Dinah"

Clawhammer Mando On Recordings:
INTO THE FEVER RAIN - Jerry Rockwell & Niles Hokkanen: "Soldier's Joy"
COMANDO Vol. 1: "Over The Waterfall"
ON FIRE & READY! - Niles Hokkanen: "Little Sadie Revised"
LARRY RICE & NILES HOKKANEN: "Minor Forty-Niner" (Larry Rice playing clawhammer mando)

Out-of-print

For Old-time and Cajun fiddle transferred onto mandolin, Judy Hyman (The Horseflies) and Michael Doucet (Beausoleil) contributed instructional columns to MD 

column: Old Time Fiddle Tunes For Mandolin (Judy Hyman)
Mandocrucian's Digest #6: "Flat Footed Henry"  
Mandocrucian's  Digest #7: "Jenny On The Railroad" 
Mandocrucian's  Digest #8:  "Goin' Back To Israel"
Mandocrucian's  Digest #9: "Benton's Dream"
Mandocrucian's  Digest #10: "Sally Ann"
Mandocrucian's  Digest #11: "Link Of Chain"

column: Cajun Mandolin (Michael Doucet)
Mandocrucian's Digest #6: "Acadian Two-Step"  
Mandocrucian's  Digest #7: "La Valse Des Jonglements"
Mandocrucian's  Digest #8: "Jongle a moi"
Mandocrucian's  Digest #9: (fiddle) shuffles
Mandocrucian's  Digest #10: "Grand Mamou"

(Tommy Comeaux, also from the band Beasuoleil, took over the Cajun column, but he was a mandolin player/bassist rather than a fiddle player like Mike Doucet.  column: Cajun Mandolin w/Tommy Comeaux: MD #'s: 13-15, 18-21, 23-24, 26)

Mandocrucian's Digest #14: Jim Watson interview w/"Shady Grove"
Mandocrucian's Digest #27: Andy Irvine interview w/"Ramblin' Robin"

Niles Hokkanen

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## TomTyrrell

<< So here's what I'm on about**: From my perspective so far, OT music is mainly about the Fiddle(s), secondarily (just behind) it's about frailing/clawhammer banjo. Guitar(s) are just for rhythm. >>

Actually, guitars aren't a traditional part of Old Time _dance music_ either. Fiddle and banjo. Fiddle plays the lead melody and banjo plays a combination of backup melody and rhythm. Usually a fiddle player and banjo player who played together all the time and were well rehearsed. This is where you heard the "fiddle tunes" played. No singing because it would interfere with the dance caller.

The other part of what we call Old Time was the parlor music (or porch music or kitchen music or whatever). That was played for entertainment and singing was common. Also common was every musical instrument anybody happened to own. Also bones and spoons and washboards and all that other stuff. Lots of smiling going on here!

If you are trying to fit the mandolin into OT _dance music_ you need to be careful to avoid messing things up. The rhythm is the most important thing and you have to be sure you don't fill things up so much that the dance rhythm is lost. 

If you want to play the mandolin in OT _parlor music_ you just need to keep the basic feel in mind. Don't go too far from the melody. Don't wig out on the rhythm. Just fit in.

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## Tom Smart

> Actually, guitars aren't a traditional part of Old Time _dance music_ either. Fiddle and banjo.


Says who? Tradition is what people actually _do,_ not something that happened at one time, in one place, forever frozen in amber.

Are we to define old-time music as consisting only of Round Peak tunes done exactly as Tommy Jarrell and Fred Cockerham did them, except when they were accompanied by guitar or when Tommy was singing (and whenever those things happened, they were breaking the rules)? Were the scores of dances that I've played for all illegitimate because there was a guitar in the band?

You're on to something when you say that "old-time" encompasses both dance tunes and parlor music. Now add in Carter-style harmony singing, mandolin blues and rags, brother duets, unaccompanied ballads, unaccompanied fiddle airs, fife and drum bands, Mark Graham playing fiddle tunes on the harmonica, the Horseflies using a synthesizer, ... I could go on and on.

I can't think of any other genre that encompasses as much diversity as "old time." I'm comfortable applying the term "old time" to almost any music that shows a deep respect for and influence from older generations of musicians, no matter what combination of instruments they may have played.

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## Fred Keller

If it's only (or primarily) about the fiddle and banjo, then where exactly does the mando fit in?  The OP posited whether to copy fiddle or banjo with the mandolin.  I don't discount the importance of these instruments which certainly hold pride of place in old time, but as the music continues to grow, change and flex, shouldn't there be a unique role for the mandolin?  I really don't know for sure; maybe the mando doesn't really have anything unique to offer oldtime.

Full disclosure dictates that I admit to an irrational reluctance to copying.  Not proud, but there you have it.

I certainly don't have a definitive style to offer--still looking but haven't found it yet  :Smile: .  My point is simply that you need to learn from the fiddle, the banjo (the harmonica, the whatever) but that shouldn't stop you from finding something unique to do with the instrument you're playing.  

The music and its varied traditions should give you some guidance on how and what to play, not necessarily--or only--the other instruments.

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## TomTyrrell

> Says who? Tradition is what people actually _do,_ not something that happened at one time, in one place, forever frozen in amber.
> 
> Are we to define old-time music as consisting only of Round Peak tunes done exactly as Tommy Jarrell and Fred Cockerham did them, except when they were accompanied by guitar or when Tommy was singing (and whenever those things happened, they were breaking the rules)? Were the scores of dances that I've played for all illegitimate because there was a guitar in the band?
> 
> You're on to something when you say that "old-time" encompasses both dance tunes and parlor music. Now add in Carter-style harmony singing, mandolin blues and rags, brother duets, unaccompanied ballads, unaccompanied fiddle airs, fife and drum bands, Mark Graham playing fiddle tunes on the harmonica, the Horseflies using a synthesizer, ... I could go on and on.
> 
> I can't think of any other genre that encompasses as much diversity as "old time." I'm comfortable applying the term "old time" to almost any music that shows a deep respect for and influence from older generations of musicians, no matter what combination of instruments they may have played.


I guess by your definition "Old Time" would also encompass Rap, Hip Hop and every other type of music that has ever happened. Or "Old Time" has absolutely no meaning at all. Same thing.

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## Samjessin

Tom - you live up to your last name don't you!  Well said.

The Carter Family, for me, is one of the many definitions of old-time and they scarcely played a fiddle tune nor had a fiddle or a banjo.

To the OP, keep listening to music you enjoy and emulating what you find beautiful.  You will soon find that mandolin has quite an important place in old-time music.

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## woodwizard

I think a mandolin works very well in Old Time music. When a mandolin is playing with the fiddle I don't know if the mandolin is sounding more like a fiddle or if the fiddle is sounding more like a mandolin. All I know is I kinda like that sound what ever it is. Old Time to me is a melody that everyone is playing most of the time and ofcourse Bluegrass has the individual breaks for each instrument. Just my 2 cents

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## mandocrucian

In *every* genre of music there is usually an *alpha* (or alpha_s_) and *beta* instrument which will define that style of music more than any of the other instruments (excluding the vocals and style of vocal delivery) which may also be commonly found in that music (in a secondary or accompaniment role).

Old-time: fiddle, clawhammer banjo
Bluegrass: 5-string banjo, fiddle  (sorry, but I think that these two are ultimately much more defining than mandolin.)
Cajun: fiddle, one-row accordion
Rock: electric guitar
Country blues: acoustic guitar
Chicago blues: harmonica, electric guitar, piano
Irish music: Uillean pipes, flute/whistle 
Scottish trad.: Highland pipes, fiddle
Tex-Mex: 3-row accordion
New Orleans R&B: piano

Jazz: varies according to the various eras...dixieland, big band swing, bop, cool....gypsy swing, fusion

This isn't to say that the dominant instrument(s) will stay the same over time, or as *sub-genres* develop or divert.  

100 years ago, Cajun music was _completely_ Fiddle dominated...then in the 20's the accordions came in and grabbed a larger and larger role in the music, and changed it. (Part of this is because the limitations of the accordion in terms of available notes/keys, plus the fixed 12EqualTemperament pitches.)

An instrument can usually be added as a secondary to a genre's existing ecosystem without too much disruption and without radically altering the internal balance if what they play are within the conventional approach/vocabulary of the style.  But, if that newer instrument is to effectively susbstitute for an alpha/beta instrument, they need to have absorbed a large amount of the vocabulary of either of those instruments.  So, if you want a mandolin to sound _"right"_ in Tex-Mex music, then it's a good idea to learn a lot of accordion solos note-for-note until you get a general idea of what the rules of the road are, and then you can let that (vocabulary, phrasing, etc) begin to adapt to instrument neck/tuning for greater ease of playing. Then, what you may be playing may note be quite what you'd hear on a 3-row, but still has that same feel.

NH

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## Tom Smart

Thanks, Sam. And your advice to listen and emulate is right on the mark.

Fortunately, there's tons of great old-time music featuring mandolin available to listen to. In addition to the resources given by Niles and others, I'd recommend the "Old Time Herald," where you'll find all kinds of CD reviews and other resources. Every issue will point you to more recordings featuring mandolin than most people could possibly afford.

And finally, to answer the original question, yes it's possible to make a mandolin sound quite a lot like a fiddle. Bill Monroe, for one, was brilliant in that regard. [Edit:] Niles is right: The key is to absorb as much fiddle music as possible and emulate the vocabulary.

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## TomTyrrell

Niles alluded to this. A very common OT fiddle sound is that Long-Short-Short shuffle they often use to kick off a tune and while playing the tune.

Emulate that on mandolin by picking with a D-DU stroke. When you need two notes on that first downstroke _slide_ to the second note with your left hand but don't pick the second note. The _slide_ will better emulate the violin sound than a hammer-on. Depending on what the third and fourth notes are (important to the melody or not important) you might do a double-stop on the DU. If you choose to do a full chord on the DU you will begin to sound more like the clawhammer banjo.

Either way will fit in well and not garner the wrath of the OT police.

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## John McGann

> ... and not garner the wrath of the OT police.


The President of the Universe of Music™ (A wholly owned subsidiary of Wal-Mart stores, Inc.) has decreed that all Music Police in all styles across the galaxy turn in their badges. 

That means the 
_Punk Rock Police_, 
_Anti-Diminished Chord Swat Team, 
Goatee/Beret BeBop Commandos, 
Effete Classical Elite Corps, 
Chardonnay-Sippin' Singer Songwriter Sergant-at-Arms,_ 
*The Guy Who Tells You "You Aren't Crosspicking With Alternate Picking" Hazardous Waste Team,* etc. 
must report to the Hall of Self-Appointed Authorities and turn in their uniforms before midnight tonight.

New, generic civilian unitards shall replace previous garb. One size fits all!

The Prez has declared that in _New Time Music_, all music shall now be drone based (upon the drone pitch Ab), no chords allowed at all, and no 8th notes allowed (unless played as polyrhythms 5 against 2 and greater). 

This Rule holds sway until 2016, at which time 12 Tone Serial Music will be allowed until 2023 and the next Universal General Election. 

The resurgence of traditional oldtime and bluegrass has been postponed until 2059.

Please don't shoot, I am merely the messenger (doesn't pay that great, either)  :Disbelief:  :Wink:

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## TomTyrrell

I think somebody washed his hat.

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## John McGann

yeah, all that dirt kept me from thinkin' straight. Better now  :Laughing:

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## JeffD

I took a week long workshop on OT mandolin a while back. The first thing we were told was that in OT music:

The fiddle and the banjo are it. The banjo provides everything the fiddle needs and the fiddle provides everything the banjo lacks. They are a perfect little OT machine. Now, you walk up with your mandolin - ask yourself - what are you going to add to this already perfect little machine?"

That being said, we learned what we can add - and it wasn't emulating either the fiddle and the banjo, it was in doing "mandolinny" things, like tremolo double stops and such.


The wonder of OT music (to me) is how much sophistication, complexity and subtlety goes into making it sound so simple and clean.

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## TomTyrrell

> The fiddle and the banjo are it. The banjo provides everything the fiddle needs and the fiddle provides everything the banjo lacks. They are a perfect little OT machine.


That's the "dance music" part of Old Time. And it is ONE fiddle and ONE banjo. Pretty much eliminates the whole idea of an "Old Time" group jam playing "dance music".

The other part of Old Time was when everybody gathered together and played just for entertainment. In that context pretty much anything that could be considered a musical instrument might have been seen. You would probably have seen a large number of home-made "instruments" and very few store-bought instruments.

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## allenhopkins

This is a fascinating discussion, albeit some of the discussers are talking past each other.

In western New York, a dance band of a 150 years ago was likely to be two fiddles, one "chording" (playing rhythmic double-stops) and the other playing the lead.  A third instrument might well be a hammered dulcimer or a piano, and if there were to be "bass," likely a cello.

Seventy-five years ago, a band playing _exactly the same role_ -- community dances, local events -- would likely have had a fiddle, possibly a saxophone, an accordion, a tenor banjo, an amplified guitar, and often drums and bass fiddle.

In either case, the ensemble would have played a mixture of traditional dance tunes (_Opera Reel, Money Musk, Red Wing_ were big).  The later group would have had a strong mixture of "singing" square dance calls, and would have added some "round dances" (non-figured waltzes, foxtrots etc.).

The point is that what we're calling old-time is a sub-genre of traditional dance music, based in the mountain South mostly.  In the Appalachians "fiddle and banjo [may have been] it," but in New England, fiddle and piano were more likely to be "it," and in Michigan and western New York, fiddle and hammered dulcimer could have been "it."  (Henry Ford's Old-Time Dance Orchestra, based out of Michigan, had a fiddle, hammered dulcimer, piano and tuba).

So where does mandolin "fit in"?  Wherever you can make it fit.  You *can't* make it sound exactly like a fiddle, and what's the point in trying?  Nor is it just an inferior form of clawhammer banjo.  Play to its strengths -- ability to combine melody and chords, fiddle-like range of pitch, percussive and tremolo potential -- and seek creativity rather than being a reflection of another instrument that will play its own role better than a mandolin could.

Now, down off the soapbox...

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## TomTyrrell

You can either discuss "Old Time" in its generally accepted definition or you can choose to throw every type of music that happened way back when into the mix. At that point you need to stop calling it "Old Time" and find a different name for it because "Old Time" already has a meaning.

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## ApK

> Says who? Tradition is what people actually _do,_ not something that happened at one time, in one place, forever frozen in amber.


Huh?  What dictionary do you use?
Tradition is something that people USED to do and people CONTINUE to do...
Folks are welcome to continue traditions, be influenced by traditions, break with traditions, or try to start new traditions (which you only know later when and if people continue to do it).
If you're goal is to  continue a tradition, then, yes, you darn well do need to do it, what ever the 'it' is you're claiming to honor, like they used to do, frozen in amber.
Sometimes (like in the Navy) traditions can carry the force of law.

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## allenhopkins

Jeez, I thought the Bluegrass Police were strict...

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## ApK

Knowing what 'tradition' means is strict?

What's knowing 2+2?  Advanced calculus?

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## Tom Smart

> Tradition is something that people USED to do and people CONTINUE to do...
> If your goal is to  continue a tradition, then, yes, you darn well do need to do it, what ever the 'it' is you're claiming to honor, like they used to do, frozen in amber.


I agree with the first statement. But if it's a living tradition, it will continue to evolve as conditions change. Example: The fiddle found its way into the Southern Appalachians long before the banjo. When increasing migration and mobility eventually put banjos in the hands of white mountaineers, it didn't mark a change from the "tradition" of solo fiddle music to a different "tradition" of old-time fiddle and banjo music. It's all part of the same tradition, renewed and extended. Same thing when the guitar arrived still later.

Recreating scenes frozen in amber isn't "tradition." It's "re-enactment."

While I agree that fiddle-banjo can be a perfect little OT machine, I'll need some solid documentation before I'll accept the notion that it's the _only_ valid configuration for an old-time dance band--or even that it's the _predominant_ configuration. There's simply no evidence for that claim in the written, recorded or pictorial record. Yes, there's evidence of that pairing, but no, there's no evidence that it's the only way old-time music was or is performed.

By the way, old-time music isn't just something they used to do way back when. It's something people continue to do today, possibly in even greater numbers--and certainly in more places around the world--than ever before.

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## ApK

We probably shouldn't digress too much into a 'Traditions' discussion, unless we want to start a new thread, but I will say this here: I think 'reenactment' is better applied to doing something that isn't done any more.  You certainly can (and most often do) uphold a tradition by doing something the same way it's been done.  Historic reenactors don't wear those clothes day to day. The Navy dress blue uniform really does have button front, neck flap  and bell bottoms.  They are upholding that tradition, not reenacting.

Keeping to the OP's context, I take your word on the realities of OT (I'm no expert on the genre, certainly).  I think he's clearly trying to honor the traditions of a specific kind of OT.  Fiddle and Banjo.   There are certainly other traditions and broader traditions, but to the point of 'how do I honor THIS tradition with a mando'  I understood answers of 'you can't' or 'here's how you can' but to say effectively 'do what you want, it's all good' seems to be avoiding the topic.

ApK

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## allenhopkins

> Knowing what 'tradition' means is strict?
> 
> What's knowing 2+2?  Advanced calculus?


No, saying "you darn well do need to do it, what ever the 'it' is you're claiming to honor, like they used to do, frozen in amber... traditions can carry the force of law" is strict.

Leaving aside the point I tried to make in my earlier post, that the "old time music tradition" means different things depending on what period and what geographic area you look at -- keeping any tradition "frozen in amber" means it's *dead.*

Not to get all credentialed here, but I've spent the last 32 years re-enacting 19th century music at a restoration near Rochester -- costume, old instruments, looking up the old sheet music, the whole nine "rods" as the old-timers might have said.  I've also worked with the state council on the arts auditing traditional music performances, planning events such as our local Fiddlers' Fair that showcase musical "tradition bearers," etc.

It is definitely one thing to be re-enacting historic performance, where you do want the "frozen in amber" approach, and another to be playing tradition-based music in a contemporary setting.  Even the folklorists and ethno-musicologists who make up the review panels for the traditional music events with which I'm involved, don't require that traditional musicians replicate the style, repertoire and context of the "older generation" from which they learned their music.

Working with some of the older musicians (many of whom, like Alice Clemens, Mark Hamilton, Clarence Maher, Sid Whitney and Ken Bonner, have sadly passed on), I heard them play everything from 18th-century dance tunes, to waltzes they learned off the radio in 1947.  And they added a fair number of pieces they wrote themselves.  They were comfortable working with younger musicians playing electric guitars and basses, as much as with old-time piano players, tenor banjoists and my aluminum bass fiddle.

No one could challenge these musicians' traditional credentials.  They were a hell of a lot more open-minded and eclectic than some of the twenty-somethings I've heard insisting that "there's only one way to play."

If I understood where this thread started, someone who was playing mandolin with other old-time players, was trying to puzzle out a good role for that instrument.  I didn't hear anyone say, "Ah, just do whatever you want."  I did hear people, myself included, say that there's no harm in being experimental and creative, recognizing the mandolin's strengths and limitations, until you find a comfortable spot.  And I hope no one would say, "You have to do what Ted Hawkins did with the Skillet Lickers back in 1928; there's no other approach that's acceptable."

----------


## mandocrucian

_Yeah.....I play "country" music!_

answer:
 _I do too. What country?_ 

_Yeah.....Well....I play "old-time" music!_

_Which century?_  "La Rotta" _is a great old dance tune! (XIIIth century, if memory serves correct)_



_You're just trying to confuse the issue....

No I'm not.

Yes you are...

I've already told you. I'm not allowed to argue with you until you pay. 

I've already paid you

No you haven't_

----------


## ApK

I understand and agree that you can follow in a tradition without having to duplicate things that were done at one time.   I disagree that preserving a tradition by duplicating something necessarily makes it dead.  
I guess it depends what the tradition is.  For example if you want to continue your family's 'tradition of fine craftsmanship'  and your grandfather made handmade dulcimers, you can make composite tennis racquets, and as long as you make them well, still be keeping that tradition.
If your family has a 'tradition of fine dulcimer making,' then as proud as grand-dad might be of your fine sporting goods, you are not upholding that tradition.

>>Even the folklorists and ethno-musicologists who make up the review panels for the traditional music events with which I'm involved, don't require that traditional musicians replicate the style, repertoire and context of the "older generation" from which they learned their music.<<

Do they require anything?  I assume there are SOME elements of continuity expected, no?

Speaking of police, I expect the thread-drift police to raid us any moment now if this keeps up.  Should I start another thread, or are we all on the same page inasmuch as anyone cares?

ApK

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## TomTyrrell

"Old Time Music" has _one_ meaning. It is the music of Anglo-Celtic Southern America during the period between the Civil War and the 1930s (at the very latest). The meaning hasn't changed since the phrase was coined in 1923.

Play what you want to play but if it isn't "Old Time Music" don't call it that.

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## bobby bill

I'm not sure I have ever heard of a word, let alone one that describes music, that has only one meaning.  I'm intrigued.

Oh, and thank you Mandocrucian for referencing one of my alltime favorite skits.

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## John McGann

> "Old Time Music" has _one_ meaning. It is the music of Anglo-Celtic Southern America during the period between the Civil War and the 1930s (at the very latest). The meaning hasn't changed since the phrase was coined in 1923.
> 
> Play what you want to play but if it isn't "Old Time Music" don't call it that.


Yes, to you it has one meaning. Evidently, others disagree.

I played a bunch of old time tunes (and other things) with the American Café Orchestra, comprised of a few Americans (including Ruthie Dornfeld), plus a Finn and a Dane. I played mandolin and pedal steel. The album is called "Egyptian Dominoes" (Northeastern Records, now out of print). Ruthie is an amazing fiddler who plays a wealth of styles beautifully, including Old Time.

We played what we want and how we wanted, whether the Music Police liked it or not (not that anyone complained!). After all, the Music Police probably weren't buying the CD or paying to get into the gigs- in fact, they seem to be too busy to practice, since they are so busy telling everyone else what not to do (and I am not just talking about Old Time Police, but also Punk rock et al as in my earlier post). Some of them are better writers than players- the ones that I have met and have given me attitude have never been more than barely competent players, especially in the Rock snob department.

We didn't call ourselves an "Old Time" band, we called ourselves a band... it happened to be an international band that played a bunch of styles.

If you really want to be purist about labels and categorizing music, "Old Time Music" would be a corruption of traditional Irish music, right? I don't believe that myself, but it would fit your definition, non? (If the Appalachian settlers brought their music over from Ireland, does anyone know whatever happened to the jigs? Seems like the reels made it over OK...)

The real question should be "is it good music or not?" There's excellent Old Time music, and also the other kind, just like in any style. 

Seems to me the actual musicians who originated/formed the style(s) were open to lots of things, and not trying to bar the door against 'outside agitators'*.

Just a thought.  :Wink: 

* See "The Graduate"

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## Fred Keller

> "Old Time Music" has one meaning. It is the music of Anglo-Celtic Southern America during the period between the Civil War and the 1930s (at the very latest). The meaning hasn't changed since the phrase was coined in 1923.
> 
> Play what you want to play but if it isn't "Old Time Music" don't call it that.


Gotta disagree too.  I live in Minnesota.  Old Time music to the old timers up here is polkas, schottisches, Scandinavian and Eastern European traditions.  These folks wouldn't know "Barlow Knife" if you stabbed them with one.

As far as whether or not Old Time (in its more commonly accepted and widely known Southern form) is living tradition and should allow for change and adaptation or whether it must be played only one way...who cares?  Those who believe it must be played according to a (usually narrowly defined) particular set of rules can do so.  The majority of us will happily trot off in every direction imaginable ("Winder Slider"?  "Nail That Catfish To A Tree" anyone?) and let the self-appointed arbiters pay to get into the concerts  :Laughing:

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## TomTyrrell

It isn't _my_ definition, the term has been in use since 1923. However, if words do not have a _definition_ then they have no meaning at all. Why bother having titles on the forum sections if "Old-Time, Roots, Early Country, Cajun, Tex-Mex" means the same thing as "Jazz, Swing, Blues, Bossa, Choro, Klezmer, World"?

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## John McGann

Do you think "Jazz" has one definition? Would that be Herbie Hancock, or Louis Armstrong, or Allan Holdsworth, or Charlie Parker, or John Scofield, or Jazz Mandolin Project, or (insert 2500 great musicians here)? 

One, and one only? Perish the thought! Many words in the dictionary have many definitions.

Did the music stop growing in 1923? Not according to the Horseflies, Chicken Chokers, Freight Hoppers, Uncle Earl, The Mammals, etc. etc... I don't think a face to face declaration of "you're not old time" would go over real well with those folks...not because they are trying to be anything other than what they are, but that musicians don't generally care for officious comments about what they live for.

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## Jeff Hildreth

Tex Mex


The father and founder of the style known as TEX MEX  was Santiago Jimenez Sr, father of Flaco and Santiago Jr.

Santiago Sr played the 2  row NOT the 3 row accordion.

It was not until the 50's that they style evolved to the 3 row.  This was to make playing easier as there were notes on the inner row in the opposite direction that could reduce bellows action 
( push pull) and not to add another key center  as an example G C and GCF  


While Flaco plays the 3 row and is quite famous  Santiago Jr continues to play the 2 row in the original style and IMNSHO  Santiago blows the doors off Flaco.  He is a much better musician than Flaco and  he is a true traditionalist in the founding style of his father . Santiago does play the 3 row as well, again better than Flaco.

The definition of "old Time Music" has confounded me for years, and still does.  The "real" definition seems to change with the author.  I have exstablished one must for me in the old time genre and that is  ( please) no singing... ruins the music.


Mandolin and old time.  No reason to be excluded.  I would suggest that somewhere at some time a mandolinist was playing what many of you refer to as old time. he just didn't know it wasn't legal.

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## John McGann

I had the pleasure of hanging out w/ Santiago a couple of years ago when we both played the National Folk Festival in Richmond, Va. A great character and excellent musician!

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## JeffD

> "Old Time Music" has _one_ meaning. It is the music of Anglo-Celtic Southern America during the period between the Civil War and the 1930s (at the very latest). The meaning hasn't changed since the phrase was coined in 1923.
> 
> Play what you want to play but if it isn't "Old Time Music" don't call it that.


Three comments:

One: This thread has evolved into a discussion of what is and isn't Old Time. That's unfortunate, because I think the role of the mandolin is a much more interesting topic.

Two: All genres of music have folks who seek to define the borders, and those who try to push the borders.

Three: Nobody would agree to a definition of Old Time, that did not include the music to which Tom refers, above. But some, myself included, would expand that to include the Northern traditions, the fiddle music of the mid - western farming communities of the 20s & 30s, New England fiddle repertory, etc. There are many who, when referring narrowly to what Tom has defined, call it Southern Old Time, to distinguish it from Northern Old Time.

Definitions are important. And so is their expansion and evolution.

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## evanreilly

*Here is a live clip of a famous mandolin player playing my request for 'The Grey Eagle'.  Listen to his introduction to the tune!  http://theworld.com/~ereilly/greyeagle.mp3*

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## CajunPicker

I agree with Tom in that when one refers the genre "Old Time" it is referencing a specific music from a specific time and region. That isn't to say that new music isn't, or can't be written in that style. I think other regions, and/or cultures refer to the music of days gone by as old time music, but it isn't necessarily related to the genre.

I say this because I have to constantly explain to people that Zydeco music is not Cajun music and vice versa. People inside the genre want clearly defined boundaries and those outside want to blur them.

My grandfather used to say, "moi, j'aime la musique de vieux temps." Of course, the old time he was speaking of was the 60's when honky-tonk Cajun music became popular. Before that, old time Cajun music was fiddle, guitar and accordion. Before that, it was fiddles. None of it is anyway related to Old Time music, but still we call it that.

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## mandocrucian

> _The father and founder of the style known as TEX MEX was Santiago Jimenez Sr, father of Flaco and Santiago Jr._


Not entirely. There was also Narcisco Martinez who was there, recording in the same region and time period, if not a little earlier, who deserves at least to share a co-founder status. (He played 2-row but later went to 3-row)

Santiago Sr may have played the two-row, but the 3-row has been conjunto king for along time. There were a few conjunto guys that played 5-row chromatic accordion (same notes regardless of the bellows direction)

(In Greek music) 6-string DAD bouzouki used to be the norm until Hiotis came along, and now it's predominantly the 8-string model. 

I've listened to Sr., Flaco and Santiago Jr., and Flaco has got the "something extra". I don't hear any comparison or any contest between Flaco and his bro. Flaco has got "it" (in the same sense that John Kirkpatrick or Tony MacMahon also have "it"!) (I've transcribed a bunch of Flaco stuff and put it onto mando, btw. Takes you all over the neck if you want to get closer to capturing some of the Flaco feel). 

Maybe the retro-traditionalists prefer Jr., but that's like cajun old-timers (earlier generation of cajuns, not SE Appalachian hillbilly music afficianados) who insist that Jimmy Breaux is a much better accordion player (cause he sticks to 1-row)  than his brother Pat who also plays 3-row zydeco accordion and, (gasp) saxaphone, as well a 1-row. CajunPicker can probably comment further on this.

(BTW, I played with both Pat and Jimmy  on the Cajun Brew album) 

Not to say that Flaco doesn't have competition - Esteban 'Steve' Jordan is  scary and _really_ pushed the envelope

Niles H

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## Jeff Hildreth

I also am an admirer of  N. Martinez and have a few of his recordings. 

As a long time box player, and a listener for even longer, I appreciate many styles and configurations and my taste in the music is admittedly different than others. 

No doubt Flaco is a very good player, but to me.. Santiago Jr. has the "it" I am looking for. 

El Parche is my all time favorite Tex Mex/Conjunto/Jazz accordionist on the 3 row.
Second would be the best unknown player, Augustin Carrerra of San Bernardino Calif. 
Way up there is  Joel Guzman... worth checking out.

There are still CBA players( 1st and 5th rows being repeats) and full on piano accordion players in the Tex Mex style.

I recently saw Jimmy Breaux and he played several tunes on his Corona II. ( 3 row) 

For 1 row, and for my taste the best of the best are still the Irish or the Quebec players.  For Cajun  Iry LeJeune does it for me . 

For 3 row  there is the Euro style of G/C/ accidentals and in this category there are many fine players both new and "old time" for their specific region, ethnicity, or style. 

As to Zydeco and Cajun,  I like them both.

I believe that a definite distinction between Cajun and Zydeco with respect to the accordion

Cajun... I would say nearly 100 % one row
Zydeco... 1 row, 2 row, 3 row, CBA, Piano accordion

Long time admirer of Tony MacMahon... talk about a strict retro traditionalist.. he has to be the king...   so much so he still plays D/D# as did Joe Cooley. 

I admire John Kirkpatric and one of the finest players around. I have lots of his recordings,     He plays 1 row, 2 row 3 row B/C/C# also known as the British or Scottish chromatic similar to Jimmy Shand, ,  and the anglo concertina. I believe he also is in the category of retro traditionalist.
While I admire Kirkpatrick..

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## lgc

"Old Time Music" has one meaning. It is the music of Anglo-Celtic Southern America during the period between the Civil War and the 1930s (at the very latest). The meaning hasn't changed since the phrase was coined in 1923.

Play what you want to play but if it isn't "Old Time Music" don't call it that."

I think everyone agrees that Riley Pucket was an Old Time musician by the strictest standard.  He played rags like Hawkins Rag that sounded an awful lot like black string band rags.  My question is this:
1-Are the rags played by Hawkins and Pucket OT because it was made by people who fit the racial and cultural criteria and the black rags aren't because they don't-with no reguard for the aural qualities and similarities?  

It seems a lot like the early R&B vs. Rock dichotomy.  Not much difference but race in the music.  There were all sorts of OT/race records that got mixed up because people didn't know the skin color differences of the artists.  To assume that Algo-Celtic music in the south existed ina vacuum or was remotely homogeneous seem to miss some of the historical realities.

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## sgarrity

Way too much pigeon holin' going on here.  Just play good music and enjoy it.  If the people you jam with don't like it, find others that do.  As far as sounding like a fiddle....listen to Monroe and Compton play fiddle tunes.  Also listen to John Hartford's old-time recordings and pay attentin to the way Compton blends with the ensemble.  Also give a listen to Caleb Krauder (sp?) of the Foghorn String Band.  If someone tells you that mandolin has no place in old-time music, they're likely folks you don't wanna be playin' with in the first place.

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## Tom Smart

> "Old Time Music" has _one_ meaning. It is the music of Anglo-Celtic Southern America during the period between the Civil War and the 1930s (at the very latest). The meaning hasn't changed since the phrase was coined in 1923.
> 
> Play what you want to play but if it isn't "Old Time Music" don't call it that.


If old-time music ends (at the latest) in the 1930s, does that mean people performing it today really are historical re-enactors rather than part of a living tradition?

If old-time music is the music of Anglo-Celtic Americans, does that mean there is no black contribution?

Where did the banjo come from, then? Is the modern, fretted banjo (invented by whites) more legitimate than the fretless gourd banjo, which originated in West African culture and was the dominant type played in America from the Civil War until the late 19th century?

What about blue notes and ragtime rhythms? Alan Jabbour cites the ragtime grouping of notes in a 3-3-2 pattern as one of the defining characteristics of American old-time music--a pattern that is nowhere to be found in Anglo-Scots-Irish music.

Mr. Jabbour also makes a persuasive case for the influence of American Indian music on old-time. Is that a heretical idea?

What's your documentation that the phrase "old-time" was coined in 1923? I have seen it used on a poster advertising a dance band as early as 1910. And this is an actual "folk" use of the term, not some record producer's marketing concept.

If your 1923 citation refers to the release of Eck Robertson's first recordings (often cited as the "first" old-time music recordings), what do you make of the fact that these were fiddle solos and duets, with the second fiddle played by a Civil War veteran? Where's the banjo?

For that matter, what do you make of the fact that very, very few records from the "golden period" (1923 to mid 1930s) feature fiddle-banjo duet? Or even feature pure dance music with no singing?

In fact, where's the exclusive fiddle-banjo pairing in Anglo-Scots-Irish music during the entire period from the Civil War until the very late 19th Century? Although you may be able to cite a couple of examples (though you haven't cited any), the overwhelming evidence is that this pairing was quite rare--certainly not predominant, let alone exclusive.

What theory of language says that the meaning of a phrase cannot change over the course of 85 years?

Why do you get to tell me what to call the music I play?

I don't want to be combative. These are legitimate questions that arise directly from your assertion about the meaning of the phrase "old-time music." You have set a high burden of proof for yourself, but you haven't met it yet.

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## allenhopkins

My experience in playing with, and listening to, musicians who are considered "traditional" or "tradition bearers," whether in fiddle/dance music, blues, or other genres, is that they're a lot less concerned about categories and labels than the younger musicians who are trying to emulate them.

I sat with the late Virginia blues singer John Jackson and heard him sing a bunch of Jimmie Rodgers songs, because those were the recordings his parents bought in the 1920's, and that he listened to.  I heard Bob Copper of the rural English singing tradition, sing music hall songs from the '30's that he enjoyed.  I've heard traditional Northeast dance fiddlers playing _Lay That Pistol Down, Just Because, Alabama Jubilee_ and _I'm Looking Over a Four-Leaf Clover_ because they were "good dance tunes."

Could be that the recent converts are more strict and pious than the "elders" of the "old time" faith...

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## ApK

> Could be that the recent converts are more strict and pious than the "elders" of the "old time" faith...


If the alternative is letting whatever elements you respect and want to continue about a tradition be diluted to the point that it is so indistinguishable from anything else that two people can't even agree what it is, then it seems like a little more strictness and piety may be a very good thing.

In America, the melting pot is supposed to mean we're commonly American, but we also preserve the cultures we descend from.
Why not the same for music?  We can commonly have 'good music' and we can also have commonly understood words to help us understand more about it.  Isn't that what those ethno-musicologists do?

ApK

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## JeffD

> we can also have commonly understood words to help us understand more about it.  Isn't that what those ethno-musicologists do?
> 
> ApK



The trick is that its a moving target, and the boundries and location of the target changes IN RESPONSE to attempts to define it. As soon as we say "thats what it is" it isn't anymore.

I am not making an arguement that language and communications are impossible, of course not, but just that its not an easy task to talk about what we are simultaneously involved in creating.

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## WindinBoy

Of course. A 2 year old can strike the open strings and voila, sounds like a fiddle already  :Smile:  

So many mandolin songs start with a shuffle.. gee wonder where that came from...

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## Michael H Geimer

I recently purchased a fiddle from a cafe member, and have been reading a lot about the subject of bowing. Something that has come up is the concept that the rhythm of the bow might very well be different than the rhythm of the melody.

I have always wanted to make my mandolin playing sound fiddle-like as best I can, and this idea resonated with me. I keep an even, steady shuffle type pulse going with my right hand, and then let the notes fall into that rhythm. It's a different approach than working to pick every note clean and distinct. That said, I don't sound at all like Monroe who was after the same goal of sounding like a fiddle, and YMMV.

* * *

Note how Monroe refers to The Grey Eagle as "an old-time fiddle tune". There is so much more to OT than fiddle tunes! I do consider myself part of the OT fold in part because of the songs and tunes I play, but also because of the role music plays in our daily home. I absolutely do not consider myself part of The OT Scene, which seems to have narrowed its scope over time to include little more than the fiddle tunes performed for dances, or at regular gatherings.

I sometimes think the effort to preserve the OT cannon is quietly stomping out the tradition of making music at home, for your family and peers, using the skills and instruments available at the time. That tradition is more important to me than the cannon.

 - MG

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## allenhopkins

> I absolutely do not consider myself part of The OT Scene, which seems to have narrowed its scope over time to include little more than the fiddle tunes performed for dances, or at regular gatherings.
> 
> I sometimes think the effort to preserve the OT canon is quietly stomping out the tradition of making music at home, for your family and peers, using the skills and instruments available at the time. That tradition is more important to me than the canon.


This is only if you buy into the quasi-theological definitional debate that has raged (with, unfortunately, encouragement from me) on this thread.  It reminds me of the endless unprofitable discussions of whether this or that group was "real bluegrass" or not.

There are millions and millions of musicians making music without worrying about labeling it.  I go to a folk club sing-around every Tuesday, and hear songs ranging from medieval ballads to the Carter Family, Woody Guthrie and Burl Ives, ending up with Lucinda Williams, James Taylor and Paul Simon.  No one whips out a badge and yells, "Halt! Cease and desist!  We are the Folk Police!"

I go to "bluegrass" jams where people sing Merle Haggard and Loretta Lynn songs, but if someone picks banjo in the background, that's bluegrass.  I go to Irish sessions where people play _St. Ann's Reel_ and _Over the Waterfall._  As I stated above, I've heard "real" traditional musicians, with unchallengeable credentials, play and sing vintage pop songs and tunes, not making a distinction between them and the tunes they learned from their grandparents.

Someone once said, "Play, don't worry," and I think that's a good exit line for me...

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## ApK

> I sometimes think the effort to preserve the OT cannon is quietly stomping out the tradition of making music at home, for your family and peers, using the skills and instruments available at the time. That tradition is more important to me than the cannon.
> 
>  - MG


Why is "using the skills and instruments available at the time" important to you?
Shall we treat that tradition with same contempt that others are treating genre?
Here:   "What time?  Where were they available?  Available to whom? Who had the skills?  Why exlude all the other instruments and skills?  You're stomping out the pure joy of making music with all these restrictions...blah blah blah."

Why on earth would one person's discussing and debating the definition of a genre in any way affect another's ability to play and enjoy music however they want?

I can side with the strictest  and most pious among us, and I'll still play Metallica at my acoustic jam and the theme from Superman on my fiddle.

ApK

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## ApK

> but if someone picks banjo in the background, that's bluegrass.


  What makes it so?




> Someone once said, "Play, don't worry," and I think that's a good exit line for me...


So exit, and maybe others will continue to discuss genres in genre discussion sections without having people chime in for no other reason than to say "your discussions are meaningless and unimportant."

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## Michael H Geimer

When I wrote "at the time" I probably should have written "of the moment". I wasn't speaking of period instrument, but rather using what you have on hand and doing the best you can at every opportunity.

e.g My neighbor knows the wife and I play Mountain Music. The guy has lived in rural NC for 25 years, but is basically a "hippie transplant" from the 60's ... he plays drums.  :Disbelief:  When we have him over for cook-outs he never brings over the percussion because in his mind "drums aren't allowed in that style".

Well, I don't think I'd play in a band with a drummer or percussionist. But, it is regrettable that he/we miss out on making music together because of an arbitrary bias _on his part, not mine_ about restrictions on style.

What I'm really saying is, it is much more important (to me) that we keep alive the idea of gathering ourselves together for common entertainment (music, dance, plays, etc) than it is to preserve the nuances of niche regional styles (at least to the extent that they propogate flase assumptions about who/what might be welcomed when folks do congregate for entertainment).

The Queen Family: Appalachian Tradition and Back Porch Music

It ain't gonna win an Academy Award, but this is a good film that I think illustrates the spirit of making music as a part of one's life. This family's been playing for generations, but gues what ... there's e-bass, Hank Williams tuns, and an appreciation for the sybling who went to Texas and brought back a whole mess of new songs the whole family could enjoy.

Cheers,

 - MG

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## tkdboyd

To use an "Old Timer's" expression Defining Old Time is "like nailing jello to a tree". 
Here is some interesting reading, but not all encompassing, when compared to the Wikipedia's entry for Old Time 
Considering I have just recently joined up with a "Folk/Old Time" band playing mandolin; I find this conversation to be insightful...when not flaming.

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## ApK

> But, it is regrettable that he/we miss out on making music together because of an arbitrary bias _on his part, not mine_ about restrictions on style.


Tell him emphatically that you want him to bring his drums over for goodness sakes!




> What I'm really saying is, it is much more important (to me) that we keep alive the idea of gathering ourselves together for common entertainment (music, dance, plays, etc) than it is to preserve the nuances of niche regional styles


The two interests need not be mutually exclusive.  I like both.

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## ApK

> I find this conversation to be insightful...when not flaming.


You know, reading back, and comparing it to many other Internet message sites, I guess it's a credit to this community that a frustrated tone or sarcastic remark would be considered 'flaming.'  The cafe maintains a remarkably high standard.

Rock on.
ApK

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## Michael H Geimer

Agreed!
Emphatic Invite: Check
Not Exclusive: Check
High Standard: Check

LOL He's sure to bring them over one day, and then we'll see how I hold up! (I'm open minded, but also a bit stuffy, too).

Ralph Rintzer supposedly wasn't much interested in that young, blind flatpicker who performed at contra dances playing fiddle tunes on an electric guitar, with electric bass accompaniment no less! That young man was Doc Watson.

He changed things around certainly. He is also consider an American Living Ledgend.

When I look around, I see 50 Miles of Elbow Room.

 - MG

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## WindinBoy

I learn from listening to Fiddle players almost exclusively now, there are a lot more fiddle examples out there oon the web than mandolin examples. I never questioned this idea before, as a matter of fact I knew a great fiddler who seemed to suggest mandolin to his pupils who had too many issues learning old-time fiddle. (I was that student  :Laughing:  Fewer coordination issues on a mandolin, but of course their ARE dexterity issues, just fewer.

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## ApK

> I learn from listening to Fiddle players almost exclusively now, there are a lot more fiddle examples out there oon the web than mandolin examples. I never questioned this idea before, as a matter of fact I knew a great fiddler who seemed to suggest mandolin to his pupils who had too many issues learning old-time fiddle. (I was that student  Fewer coordination issues on a mandolin, but of course their ARE dexterity issues, just fewer.


Actually, the main reason I own a mando is to work on memorizing fiddle tunes when for whatever reason, I don't want to get out the fiddle and bow.

The fingering is similar enough that it's useful for getting tunes under your fingers. 

For me at least, it's nothing to do with sounding like a fiddle or filling the same role.

Fun though.

ApK

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## JeffD

> I can side with the strictest  and most pious among us, and I'll still play Metallica at my acoustic jam and the theme from Superman on my fiddle.
> 
> ApK




Just don't call it old time.  :Laughing:   :Mandosmiley:

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## TomTyrrell

> ... Horseflies, Chicken Chokers, Freight Hoppers, Uncle Earl, The Mammals, etc. etc... I don't think a face to face declaration of "you're not old time" would go over real well with those folks...


Somehow I seriously doubt the bands mentioned would be at all insulted if told "you're not old time". None of them seem to claim to be "old time" except maybe the Freight Hoppers and they seem to have gone far beyond "old time" now.


The Horse Flies: "One of the earliest bands to bring truly inventive ideas and energy to traditional Amercan fiddle music, The Horse Flies have created a unique sound that remains fresh, powerful and captivating. Artful original songs, a wild groove-oriented approach to fiddle music, esteemed instrumental skills, and emotive singing come together as old-time fiddle music meets *alternative rock, minimalism, modern songwriting and world percussion*."

The Chicken Chokers: "The signature sound of The Chicken Chokers combines a string pounding 4-man rhythm section, ever-crazed fiddling, infamous 'air-raid siren' vocals, and the hallmark Chicken Choker Big Boy Chorus."

The Freight Hoppers: "Those “patient fans” who had the pleasure to see the fabled Freight Hoppers perform from 1992 to the band’s lay-up will certainly know what a sight and sound it is to witness the infectious groove of *fiddle and banjo* combination driven by David Bass and Frank Lee."

Uncle Earl: "While their *fiddle-led, banjo-flecked* sound holds profound echoes of the rural Americana... The music of Uncle Earl points toward the roots of stringband music (Scotch-Irish ballads, Celtic fiddle tunes, the blues), *but by including original material and opening their sound to an array of influences past and present, they arrive at something haunting and timeless, yet instantly appealing and accessible.*"

The Mammals: "*Subversive Acoustic Traditionalists*. A string band at the core, The Mammals augment their sound with drums and electric guitar to create a collectively harmonized howl as thrilling and rocking as any band currently *subverting folk traditions*.

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## JeffD

> I learn from listening to Fiddle players almost exclusively now, there are a lot more fiddle examples out there oon the web than mandolin examples.



Thats the way I have always done it - well perhaps not exclusively, but most of the time. At a jam I will often "cheat" the melody off one of the fiddlers. And there is one heck of a lot more fiddle tune books than mandolin tune books.

All that bing said, I don't mean to imply I want the mandolin to sound like the fiddle - no way. I just want to be playing the same tune as the fiddle.  :Grin:

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## John McGann

> Somehow I seriously doubt the bands mentioned would be at all insulted if told "you're not old time". None of them seem to claim to be "old time" except maybe the Freight Hoppers and they seem to have gone far beyond "old time" now.
> 
> 
> The Horse Flies: "One of the earliest bands to bring truly inventive ideas and energy to traditional Amercan fiddle music, The Horse Flies have created a unique sound that remains fresh, powerful and captivating. Artful original songs, a wild groove-oriented approach to fiddle music, esteemed instrumental skills, and emotive singing come together as old-time fiddle music meets *alternative rock, minimalism, modern songwriting and world percussion*."
> 
> The Chicken Chokers: "The signature sound of The Chicken Chokers combines a string pounding 4-man rhythm section, ever-crazed fiddling, infamous 'air-raid siren' vocals, and the hallmark Chicken Choker Big Boy Chorus."
> 
> The Freight Hoppers: "Those “patient fans” who had the pleasure to see the fabled Freight Hoppers perform from 1992 to the band’s lay-up will certainly know what a sight and sound it is to witness the infectious groove of *fiddle and banjo* combination driven by David Bass and Frank Lee."
> 
> ...


Thanks, Tom, you made my point better than I did. These bands are all true to the spirit of the original musicians who blended a variety of idioms to form what we now call Old Time.

They called it Music  :Mandosmiley:

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## TomTyrrell

> Do you think "Jazz" has one definition?


Well, I guess there's no such thing as "Jazz"

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## WindinBoy

To me Old-Time also suggest  certain regional characteristics, a certain perfection of particular nuances, whether it be slides, the rhythm, the intrumentation.. and because of the somewhat isolated nature of the music style created, the style oozes a certain intensity and just like a rich Main accent or Kentucky accent, the voice is unmistakable. When music takes on the characteristics of the people who created it.

Old-Time came from an era before the internet, before people had so much exposure to everything under the sun. They focused on what was happening in their village or what some hot fiddlers were doing a town or two over. People talked in a similar fashion, spiced therir foods in a similar way and yes played their music in a certain way. This to me is what captures the heart of the "old-time" tradition to some degree.

We have come so far only to try and regain the essence of some profound simplicity. Take a song like Sally Goodin or Leather Britches, very simple harmonically, but in the hands of someone who really understands these tunes, the power is unmistakable. 

I am shooting from the hip but whatever.

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## John McGann

> Well, I guess there's no such thing as "Jazz"


There are actual colors in between black and white  :Wink:

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## TomTyrrell

> There are actual colors in between black and white


Of course there are but if a musical style is _defined_ only by the influences that were combined to develop that new style then there cannot be any _new_ styles at all. What is now called "Jazz" must be disassembled to its sources and the result assigned to the most influential of those sources.  

If a musical style has no definition at all, or that definition is allowed to constantly change, then there is no way to say what that style is or is not. The style simply cannot exist. It is ALL Music and that is all it is. 

In fact there are many styles of music now recognized that are the result of musicians combining their musical influences in new ways. There comes a point at which what they are playing is no longer what it was. If this new music survives it gets a NEW NAME recognizing that it is indeed not the old music but it is something NEW.

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## John McGann

> Of course there are but if a musical style is _defined_ only by the influences that were combined to develop that new style then there cannot be any _new_ styles at all. What is now called "Jazz" must be disassembled to its sources and the result assigned to the most influential of those sources.  
> 
> If a musical style has no definition at all, or that definition is allowed to constantly change, then there is no way to say what that style is or is not. The style simply cannot exist. It is ALL Music and that is all it is. 
> 
> In fact there are many styles of music now recognized that are the result of musicians combining their musical influences in new ways. There comes a point at which what they are playing is no longer what it was. If this new music survives it gets a NEW NAME recognizing that it is indeed not the old music but it is something NEW.



Other than "new acoustic music" (which never really caught on) there hasn't been a NEW NAME for any extensions of acoustic music in many a moon. In fact, Blue Grass is used to encompass styles from Monroe to Alison Krause, where some would say it is ONLY the music of Bill Monroe. Newgrass/Dawg Music/Spacegrass etc. are all associated only with individual musicians and their bands...likewise in extensions of Irish trad, there are no easy labels to show the differences between, say, Martin Hayes and Lunasa, though the actual music is very different.

What you say:




> It is ALL Music and that is all it is.


is quite profound.

Labels (all words, really) are handy things for critics and mass marketing, but are pretty lame when it comes to actually describing real music. Musical styles are invented and defined by the people playing the music, not by their words, or the words of the people sitting on the sidelines, but by their playing. It's entertaining to argue/read about this stuff, but it doesn't matter in the least. The music is what matters, and The Music doesn't care what you or I think about it. The truth is in the music, whatever NAME you think it should get.

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## ash89

get your hands on as much of skip gormans' mando recordings as you can..

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## TomTyrrell

<< In fact, Blue Grass is used to encompass styles from Monroe to Alison Krause, where some would say it is ONLY the music of Bill Monroe. Newgrass/Dawg Music/Spacegrass etc. are all associated only with individual musicians and their bands... >>

Excellent example. The term "Bluegrass" came about because Bill Monroe began playing in a style that didn't fit the terms then in use - what he was doing wasn't Old Time or Country so it needed a new name. It was a term associated with ONE musician and his band. Many other musicians followed in Monroe's footsteps but a few of them went so far from the path that their music got a new name. Dawg Music, Newgrass, Spacegrass and all the other names exist because those musicians went too far from Bluegrass to fit the "Bluegrass" name.

Gypsy Jazz - Django. Others played something sort of like it but it is Django who put the Gypsy and the Jazz together. Many have followed Django's lead and some have strayed so far that what they are playing isn't Gypsy Jazz anymore. If those artists become popular enough what they are doing will get a new name.

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## CES

Now for the definitive answer to the OP's original question, based on my recent experience learning "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" by the CDB:

NO...at least not if you play as poorly as me.  :Grin: 

But, you can emulate a fiddle's phrasing to some degree and certainly contribute to good music regardless of the label, as Niles and John (two MUCH more qualified individuals than myself)...I don't know that anyone would mention the banjo as an instrument for classical music, but Bela Fleck sure makes it one on "Perpetual Motion."  I think the same concept would apply here...make good music, fit in well with the style you're trying to play, and you'll all have a good time!    :Mandosmiley:

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## Tom Smart

> Musical styles are invented and defined by the people playing the music, not by their words, or the words of the people sitting on the sidelines, but by their playing. It's entertaining to argue/read about this stuff, but it doesn't matter in the least. The music is what matters.


Exactly, and that's what I meant when I wrote (somewhere, way back there) that tradition is defined by what people _actually do._

Even leaving aside modern old-time performance practices, if you just look at old-time and hillbilly recordings from the "golden era," of 1923 to the mid 1930s, the variety of tune/song types and origins, playing styles and instrumental combinations is truly staggering.

Genre terms are limiting, but IF we're to define "old-time music" as anything at all, it would be a huge disservice to leave all that variety out of the definition. We have an abundance of recorded evidence, and there's no way around it.

I love Chuck Berry, but thank goodness no one tries to define "rock 'n' roll" as "music that sounds just like Chuck Berry, and anything that comes along after that needs to get a new name."

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## TomTyrrell

> Exactly, and that's what I meant when I wrote (somewhere, way back there) that tradition is defined by what people _actually do._
> 
> Even leaving aside modern old-time performance practices, if you just look at old-time and hillbilly recordings from the "golden era," of 1923 to the mid 1930s, the variety of tune/song types and origins, playing styles and instrumental combinations is truly staggering.
> 
> Genre terms are limiting, but IF we're to define "old-time music" as anything at all, it would be a huge disservice to leave all that variety out of the definition. We have an abundance of recorded evidence, and there's no way around it.
> 
> I love Chuck Berry, but thank goodness no one tries to define "rock 'n' roll" as "music that sounds just like Chuck Berry, and anything that comes along after that needs to get a new name."


Who said anything about leaving all that variety out of Old Time music? That variety is part of what makes OT what it was. Slightly or sometimes hugely different ways of rendering the same tune in locations 30 miles apart or even closer. When recordings and radio became available those variations started to be lost. The fiddler didn't have to play the new tune he heard played once by a guy on the other mountain from _memory_, he could listen to the recording many times. He could play that tune the same way as on the recording rather than adding his own regional dialect to his version of the tune. 

So why can't Old Time be what it was with all that wonderful regional variety instead of adding in so many other influences that it is forever lost?

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## John McGann

> I love Chuck Berry, but thank goodness no one tries to define "rock 'n' roll" as "music that sounds just like Chuck Berry, and anything that comes along after that needs to get a new name."


Amen! There are 578 (and counting) different and distinct styles within "rock and roll", and coming up with a new name every time someone innovates and creates followers is silly.




> So why can't Old Time be what it was with all that wonderful regional variety instead of adding in so many other influences that it is forever lost?


Regional variety is now a different Applebees, Bob Evans, McDonalds and WalMart 30 miles down the road. Add TV, radio and everything else that the entire world has now, and you realize 1923 just may have been a different world-and not everything was swell them, either (polio, no penicillin, institutionalized racism, etc.). It's very easy to romanticize a time you haven't lived through.

Michael Coleman is considered responsible for the demise of several regional styles in Ireland as once players heard him, they felt they couldn't 'match' his virtuosity. It's too bad those players didn't have the chance to record...yet there are still major differences recognized between Kerry, Donegal, Clare East and West etc.

Besides, why would you want any regional influences in the music that might pollute it's purity? 30 miles down the road they might be digging that old time Chuck Berry music!  :Mandosmiley:   :Cool:

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## ApK

> Regional variety is now a different Applebees, Bob Evans, McDonalds and WalMart 30 miles down the road. Add TV, radio and everything else that the entire world has now, and you realize 1923 just may have been a different world-and not everything was swell them, either (polio, no penicillin, institutionalized racism, etc.). It's very easy to romanticize a time you haven't lived through.


The point of that paragraph escapes me.  So you want music to become as  homogenized as Interstate dining?  Maybe if people were more careful to preserve in their language the regional differences of food, it would not have been homogenized into the Applebee's and Micky D's, same as trying to preserve though language specific elements of style, repertoire or whatever else makes one kind of music notable and distinguishable from another.

As for the second half...something wrong with romanticizing through art?  Many songs are about sickness, death, dying, meeting your maker after dying, etc and some are quite grand and peppy!




> Musical styles are invented and defined by the people playing the music, not by their words, or the words of the people sitting on the sidelines, but by their playing. It's entertaining to argue/read about this stuff, but it doesn't matter in the least. The music is what matters


After we meet that aforementioned maker, maybe we'll find that the music didn't matter either, and Rhythmic Gymnastics was the One and Only True Art Form.
Until then, well, I was writer long before I learned to play an instrument, and I say the ability to express and understand (and preserve) this stuff--any stuff-- through words matters every bit as much as the music.

Lessin' you think that book learnin' is the devil's work?*

ApK

* I just saw "Songcatcher,"  a movie about a musicologist collecting folk songs in Appalachia...good movie....  That was a sentiment of 'Uncle Cratis.'

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## John McGann

> The point of that paragraph escapes me.


Agreed!  :Wink:  


> So you want music to become as  homogenized as Interstate dining?  Maybe if people were more careful to preserve in their language the regional differences of food, it would not have been homogenized into the Applebee's and Micky D's, same as trying to preserve though language specific elements of style, repertoire or whatever else makes one kind of music notable and distinguishable from another.


No, I don't want music to be homogenized (if you ever heard my playing, you'd see how laughable THAT idea is); I am pointing out the there is a "McAnywhere" syndrome in this country regarding culture. It's not just the Interstate! Read the paragraph regarding Coleman. I don't like it any more than anyone who cares about quality, variety and style does, but finding "regional styles" today vs. 100 years ago is a lot tougher. I LOVE technology, recordings, slowdowners, etc. but the other side of music getting around is that cited by the folks who were put off by Coleman-some players of simpler styles hung it up as they felt unworthy after hearing Coleman. I love Coleman, but i think it's a shame that those other styles went by the wayside.




> Until then, well, I was writer long before I learned to play an instrument, and I say the ability to express and understand (and preserve) this stuff--any stuff-- through words matters every bit as much as the music.
> 
> Lessin' you think that book learnin' is the devil's work?*


_Surrre, all us college professors are against book learnin'!_  :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing: 

I write, I play, I teach, I perform...words are great for teaching the technical details of music, but  students need to HEAR the music, not READ about it. It's nice to write about it, but it is very removed from the actual _experience of music_, don'tcha think? Kind of like writing about certain other, umm, experiences  :Whistling:  Especially when the writing is done by 'critics' who usually can't do the very thing they criticize on a high level (centuries of arts criticism prove this point!)

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## ApK

> but finding "regional styles" today vs. 100 years ago is a lot tougher.


Yes, and doesn't that make it even MORE important to use words to understand, categorize, document and otherwise help preserve those differences, so that even if some of the more organic methods of continuing those local traditions are lost, people have another way of learning them, learning FROM them, and continuing them if they want?





> I write, I play, I teach, I perform...words are great for teaching the technical details of music, but  students need to HEAR the music, not READ about it. It's nice to write about it, but it is very removed from the actual experience of music, don'tcha think?


Yes, certainly very different.  But I don't think less important.  And remember, we're not talking about substituting writing for the experience of music.   While one might turn a song into prose, or a movie, etc, and it might even work, there's no doubt that no matter how faithful the artist used the new medium to convey the same feelings and story, it would be way different.  But we're not talking about doing something like that.  We're talking about talking ABOUT music.  It's a meta-conversation.  

I've said elsewhere that I disagree with the sentiment of the quote "writing about music is like dancing about architecture."  It's meant to be derisive or  to point out some perceived impossibility.  For one, I'm sure some interpretive dancers would find great artistic validity in dancing about architecture, but more to the point, writing about music is more like WRITING about architecture, or writing about feelings, or writing about . . . :Whistling:  anything.     And that's, as they say, all good.

ApK

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## John McGann

> Yes, and doesn't that make it even MORE important to use words to understand, categorize, document and otherwise help preserve those differences, so that even if some of the more organic methods of continuing those local traditions are lost, people have another way of learning them, learning FROM them, and continuing them if they want?
> ApK


IMHO if the music is lost, no amount of writing will bring it back...if you were on the scene of one of these "extinct" styles, do you think your writing, however passionate or accomplished, could allow musicians to accurately carry on the style? Even musical notation is woefully inadequate in communicating stylistic nuances, let alone mere words. Again, just my opinion, no offense intended.

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## ApK

> IMHO if the music is lost, no amount of writing will bring it back...if you were on the scene of one of these "extinct" styles, do you think your writing, however passionate or accomplished, could allow musicians to accurately carry on the style? Even musical notation is woefully inadequate in communicating stylistic nuances, let alone mere words. Again, just my opinion, no offense intended.


Long before there were recording devices, talented and expressive writers wrote down what they thought was important or notable about music and tried to convey some of the same emotions they felt while listening.

By metaphor, simile, or whatever, they might convey much more than mere notation could.
One might, for example, describe the embellishments a performer used and what effect it had in an Irish fiddle performance far more completely in several pages of prose than in any notation of the tune.

I guess without a time machine we'll never know how well they did*, but I'd rather have the words than nothing.


ApK

*Actually, I guess we could do an experiment where writers tried to convey a musical style to a group of musicians who were unfamiliar with it, and we could see how that group does in recreating it....Hmm...would Berklee give me a grant....?

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## John McGann

You could write for years to describe, let's say, Afro-Cuban music, and contribute to the overall understanding of it's roots, cultural setting, etc. but it barely makes the analogy of a map vs. beautiful vista. It doesn't replace the experience of hearing the music, but it can surely enhance it.

I love to read stuff about music I love- but it doesn't replace the music.

Thanks heaven we don't have to rely on writers and their impressions and live vicariously- an interesting read is Nicolas Slonimsky's "Lexicon of Musical Invective" which is a collection of writing about music, much from the pre-gramophone era, 'metaphor, simile or whatever' that will curl your toes. If you tried to recreate some period music from THAT, you'd really have some fun...




> By metaphor, simile, or whatever, they might convey much more than mere notation could.
> One might, for example, describe the embellishments a performer used and what effect it had in an Irish fiddle performance far more completely in several pages of prose than in any notation of the tune.


I have yet to see any verbalization/rhapsodizing about music in a descriptive way (non-theory based) fit to stand in the shadow of an actual performance-again IMHO, music reaches the intuitive, non-verbal, experiential side of the brain in a way that transcends the verbal...but I've never been much of a lyric guy (though I do love to read, so go figure, I'm wired funny; TomTyrell thinks my hat is dirty...)


Oh yeah, can you make a mandolin sound like a fiddle? You can have fun trying!  :Mandosmiley:

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## TomTyrrell

Nevermind.

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## Tom Smart

> Who said anything about leaving all that variety out of Old Time music?


It was the post specifically limiting old-time dance music to one fiddle and one banjo, and disallowing the guitar, that got me into this discussion. There were also posts limiting the music to a specific time period (Civil War to 1930s), a specific geography (Southeastern U.S.) and specific cultural origins (Anglo/Irish/Scots).

It's funny--I can imagine myself 30 years ago explaining to someone that the purest form of old-time music is the fiddle-banjo duet playing tunes from the old country that, in the U.S., have gradually evolved in isolated geographical pockets into distinct regional variations.

Since then, I've done a whole lot of listening to and reading about the old masters, and I no longer believe that. Now, I'd just say the guitar was a latecomer that was widely adopted as soon as it became widely and cheaply available, and that regional styles vary a lot according to who passed through the region--ranging from the relative isolation of upland rural areas to the more racially and culturally diverse influences found in lowland, coastal and urban areas.

There's a world of difference between Emmett Lundy and Willie Narmour, for example, but they're both equally authentic in my book.

To the OP: Lots of good suggestions here, including the most recent plug for Skip Gorman. He's a fine fiddler who brings a lot of fiddle style to his mandolin playing. I'm a fiddler first, too, and that colors my whole approach to the mandolin--so much so, that I often struggle to find ways to make the mando sound more like itself, and less like my fiddling. Mike Compton gave me some good advice along those lines in a workshop a couple of years ago.

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## TomTyrrell

<< There's a world of difference between Emmett Lundy and Willie Narmour, for example, but they're both equally authentic in my book. >>

So now Old Time and Mississippi Blues are the same thing?

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## Fred Keller

> So now Old Time and Mississippi Blues are the same thing?


Are you saying this to provoke?  Clearly Tom S said no such thing.  He said they were "equally authentic."  

In addition, part of the reason why OT music sounds the way it does (and not, for example, like Irish and Scottish music even though some of the tunes are the same) is that it filtered through the hands and minds of African Americans as well as all the other folks we know more about.  This at least suggests that blues and Old Time share some distant cousins even if they don't have the same parents.

Thirdly, what is the sin that you seem to perceive in "incorrect" musical taxonomy?  Terminology (classification, opinions on origins, etc.) is simply meant to provide a basis for further discussion, not to end it.  These terms are basically music jargon (in the sense of being a characteristic language of a particular group):  they are artificial ways that some people use to sketch out boundaries and provide some common ground for discussion.  They are subject to review and change all the time.  I don't believe they were intended as an end in and of themselves.

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## ApK

No, but they are intended to facilitate clear communication.  Maybe saying "this term starts and ends with this subset, period" is too far to the right, but saying "Oh, just play whatever sound good and you'll just be keeping the tradition alive" is too far to the left.

Perhaps if the challenges where phrased more like "Well, if you specifically mean OT from x period in x style then the key element are usually...."  rather than "don't worry about it, the terms don't matter" the thread would have taken a different course.

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## mandocrucian

> Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle?


*NO.* Though it is possible to transfer aspects of fiddle phrasing and dynamics to the mandolin using hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides, and pick glides to slur notes together and partially get a _"bowing"_ pattern/effect (though *never* to the extent that you'd get on fiddle), and, to use some bending for non-tempered intonation and "neutral" pitches (most commonly halfway between the minor and major 3rds, or major & minor 7ths). You can make the mando sound _more convincing_ in a particular genre by _adopting the local dialect_.

In a *stand-alone* context (or with non-competetive instruments such as bass and percussion) the mandolin can echo/imply a host of other instruments via playing attack, vocabulary, and phrasing/dynamic techniques, ranging from electric guitar and clawhammer banjo to Appalachian dulcimer, hammered dulcimer, kantele, and even to non-stringed instruments. The problem arises when you insert the mando back into the _standardized ensembles_ of the various musical styles you are emulating. All the difficult technique and nuances you've acquired will tend to be overwhelmed sonically by the ensemble unless you're amped up (which is OK for rock/blues/etc electric guitar style playing).  The thick sonic sustain of the fiddle will absorb those fiddlistic hammer-ons etc. and dominate the pitches if you are playing identical lines, (but the clicking of the pick will come through).

So, you may be able to _substitute_ (with some success) for a particular instrument (if it is absent), but the mandolin will usually be overwhelmed if it has to compete for sonic space with the instrument it is emulating. Now, if you are very versatile, you can shift your approach to playing like a different instrument - if there is an old-time fiddle present, then play more like a clawhammer banjoist (if there isn't a bona fide banjo player there).  The way *I play* at any particular situation is largely dependent on the other instrumentation, and of course, the genre (and whether I want to blend, or play against type).

But if you want to play _authentic_   (fill in name of genre or sub-grene)   in it's *standard ensemble instrumentation(s),* (and I'll leave that issue to the Judean People's Front and The People's Front of Judea and the platform committees of any 3rd/4th/5th/6th/etc political parties, or a roomful of hardcore 78rpm collectors, for eternal semantic argumentation in lieu of practicing instruments) you'll be a lot better off just migrating to the actual alpha/beta instruments - so start practicing the (actual) fiddle, or banjo, or electric guitar, accordion or whatever.

Or, you can form your own esemble with unconventional instrumentation allowing you to play mando however you wish without being rendered superfluous, and thus possibly achieve eternal footnoted fame as leader of a _novelty act_  :Laughing: 
 :Crying: 

NH

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## allenhopkins

Listen to Kenny Hall playing _Noah's Snoa_ here for a symbiotic mandolin-fiddle interplay.  Only a 35-second snippet, but gives some idea of phrasing, etc.

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## Tom Smart

> << There's a world of difference between Emmett Lundy and Willie Narmour, for example, but they're both equally authentic in my book. >>
> 
> So now Old Time and Mississippi Blues are the same thing?


Well, let's see. Narmour and Smith were white; their recordings were released under the OKeh "Old Time Tunes" catalog; they recorded several conventional waltzes, breakdowns and other traditional old-time dance forms; they knew and recorded with people like Fiddlin' John Carson, Hoyt Ming and Moonshine Kate...

...and they also knew and recorded with Mississippi John Hurt and played some fairly bluesy stuff. Which is my whole point. If you're going to disqualify music that shows any blues influence, you'll end up with a vanishingly small canon of "authentic old time" artists. If Willie Narmour doesn't count as "old time," then he equally doesn't count as "Mississippi blues" and we'll just have to relegate him to a new category, "Willie Narmour music." I don't think most people who care about the definitions of these terms would be willing to go there. I'd guess that most old-time fiddlers would be willing and eager to count him as one of their own.

To ApK: No one has said "Oh, just play whatever sound good and you'll be keeping the tradition alive," or "don't worry about it, the terms don't matter." The whole reason I entered this discussion is because I do care what words mean. Far from having contempt for genre, I care deeply about it and that's why I'm pushing back against a definition that excises so much of the historical, on-the-record richness of the genre, as well as so much of the performance practice that keeps it alive today.

To Niles: Becky Smith once said something like "Let's face it, the mandolin is just a novelty instrument."  I found that comment to be quite liberating, especially coming from someone who makes that weird looking little guitar thingy sound so good.

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## Paul Kotapish

> "Old Time Music" has _one_ meaning. It is the music of Anglo-Celtic Southern America during the period between the Civil War and the 1930s (at the very latest). The meaning hasn't changed since the phrase was coined in 1923.


Fascintating debate. 

Tom, I'm curious about the who, what, and where of this inviolable 1923 definition you are citing. (If you provided a reference already, I missed it.) I have conversed with plenty of American-music scholars and ethnomusicologists who are in general agreement that the term "old-time music" was not in common parlance until the '60s revival and the issue of _Old Time Music at Clarence Ashley's_ and the early recordings of the New Lost City Ramblers. 

Obviously scholars differ, but I am interested in the historic source for your definition. 

I'd certainly agree with you fiddle and banjo being the basis for traditional Appalachian dance music, but I have to side with the Norman Blake's opinion the notion and tradition of old-time music embraces a lot more territory: 

"If you say "old-time music" nowadays, the first thing that comes to mind is the fiddle-and-banjo dance crowd. I feel a little bit put off by that, because while I like that very much and have certainly been involved in that, I just feel that old-time music is a broader thing. It’s sort of like bluegrass. You have this straight blinder approach of what is bluegrass too, and it’s gotten to be so generic. And I think old-time music is kind of generic now. And that’s a little sad, because old-time music is everything that’s ever gone on for the last however many hundred years. It’s certainly been more than just fiddle tunes." 
(From an interview with Scott Nygaard in _Acoustic Guitar_.)
I've been playing old-time music for about 35 years now, and have had the pleasure of learning from and performing with some musicans with reasonably secure old-time credentials such as Benton Flippen, J.P. Frailey, and many others. None of them had such a narrow view of old-time music as the one your are positing. And I think most of them consider(ed) their music to be part of a living, breathing tradition that had room to embrace new tunes, new approaches to playing old tunes, and even--gasp--new instruments such as the mandolin.

While I applaud efforts to keep language meaningful and precise, and I disagree with an early post that obliquely suggested that old-time music was anything and everything, I don't think anyone's understanding of the old-time music universe benefits from a definition that might exclude the contributions of Mark Graham, Kenny Hall, or Norman Blake. 

And to digress to the original point of the thread, I've spent most of my mandolin years trying to match as closely as possible the phrasing, timing, and ornaments of the fiddlers I play with. I don't think it's possible to make the mandolin sound just like a fiddle, but it is possible to learn to play with a fiddler so that the two instruments meld into a single voice. 

To get there: listen, listen, listen. Play. Listen a little more.

Regards to all.

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## JeffD

> have had the pleasure of learning from and performing with some musicans with reasonably secure old-time credentials such as Benton Flippen, J.P. Frailey, and many others. . 
> 
> To get there: listen, listen, listen. Play. Listen a little more.
> 
> .



Hey Paul, I saw Benton Flippen and Lee Sexton this last July, at Swannanoa. Amazing stuff.



Listening really is the answer, or gives us the answer, to an awful lot of questions.

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## Samjessin

What kind of music is that, old-time or bluegrass?

Ummm, it's Narmour and Smith.

I actually like that answer, they should have their own genre.  They already have a tune recorded heavily by bluegrass bands.  Maybe they are it, the stick in the spokes on the wheel that spins the whole what is a certain type of music defined by. 

Narmour and Smith, the inventors of Newgrass?  Perhaps.  Listen closely.

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## JeffD

The thread got off track a bit, talking about what is and isn't OT. Back to the original subject, what is the place of the mandolin in OT.

If the selections on Old Time Music Radio   http://www.oldtimemusicradio.com/Welcome.html  are any indication - I just heard about 5 songs in a row with mandolin as the lead melody instrument. Overall, of course, fiddle is lead melody, but about a quarter of the time or more mandolin seems to be unison melody with the fiddle, or lead melody instrument.

Not that OTMR is the last authority on what is or isn't orthodox OT - I don't even want to go there - just that it is an indication that the mandolin is often enough taking its role as center stage or sharing center stage with the fiddle.

Who knows, perhaps in fifty years there will be a thread on a fiddle site about whether its appropriate for the fiddle to emulate the mandolin at OT jams.

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## Gary S

My take on some of the things brought up is that yes there should be room in Old time music for stretching in different directions but it should be done in the context of appreciation and respect for the traditions. Old time traditional music has always been vibrant because of its reflection of regions and there cultures and cross-cultures. As our world gets smaller this aspect can suffer.

The horseflies and the Chicken chokers both made great innovative music but I am sure that Judy Hyman(horseflies) and Chad Crumb(chicken chokers) would both reccomend listening to Tommy Jarrell, Camp Creek Boys, Skillet Lickers etc.

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## Bernie Daniel

> scgc.om: Is it really possible to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle???


Hi you have recieved a lot of interesting information on your question that seems more about another question "what is old tyme music".

Here are my four answers to your OP because you asked a question of great interest to me -- keep in mind I am not qualified to answer but I have cosidered the question -- so what the hay:

1) listen to the version of Grey Eagle by Bill Monroe that Evan Reilly posted -- it is great and Evan is right -- it tells you a lot -- he posted earlier -- a year or so ago an I have listened to it about 100 times since then I learn something new every time -- thanks Evan!

2) get a fiddle and spend an additional $30 to buy a "fiddle fretter" (Google it) it is a cool device that sticks with adhesive to the fiddle fingerboard and gives you tiny "frets" -- you put you finger ON the frets not between them -- then you can bow a "fretted" instrument and after a while you can get a feeling for how the fiddle sound is made;

3) work on shuffle sounds -- using accentuated back picking to do it "Gery Eagle and also Jenny Lynn are good songs to practice on.

4) get in touch with David Long he has been working on this question for a while and he is a great mandolin player -- as suggest Skip Gorman knows a lot about this too. 

Good Luck -- I really do not think you can make a mandolin sound exactly like a fiddle but you will make some great sounds that will certainly work in Old Tyme and you will have fun.  That is the main thing.   :Smile:

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## Barbara Shultz

Wow, I finally got around to reading every post in this thread.  

It makes me wonder how many of you scoff when you read in almost every post of mine "I play Celtic & Old-Time"..... not knowing about all the rules & regulations!

I am a relative newcomer to listening to and playing whatever this music is that we play.  Until I started playing the mandolin, I would say I grew up listening to Rock & Roll, converted to Country Music in the 80's, enjoyed listening to Blues, and some Bluegrass music.  I would have said that without knowing the parameters of descriptions of those genres.

So, when I decided I wanted to play music with my friends (who are now my fellow band members... and who told me these are Celtic & Old-Time tunes), I've just repeated what I'd been told... I play Celtic & Old-Time music.  I usually say this to people who, upon learning that I play the mandolin, expect me to play bluegrass music.  And one thing I can say for sure, there is a world of difference in what a mandolin plays in Celtic and Old-Time, and in what it plays in Bluegrass!

Our band is comprised of instruments that probably don't fit into the definition of true "old time" or true "irish traditional" bands, but we still call ourselves "Celtic & Old-Time / Traditional"

Again, in my completely uneducated defense, I believe that a lot of the tunes that we play, that we consider Old-Time, are the same tunes that are played in Bluegrass.... they are just played differently... especially where the mandolin is concerned.

As far as types of music go, tunes considered "Irish", "Scottish", "Celtic", "Old-Time", "Appalachian", "Mountain music", "Fiddle Tunes", etc. go rather well together!  The tunes in the book "The Fiddler's Fakebook" come to mind!

Which leads me to another question.  Is it the tune itself, or the way that it is played, or the instruments that play it, that determine the genre?  

Barbara

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## allenhopkins

> Is it the tune itself, or the way that it is played, or the instruments that play it, that determines the genre?


Yes.

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## Barbara Shultz

> Yes.


haha!  Take my pick, right?

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## JeffD

The real reality is that the edges are somewhat fuzzy. There is a body of music that, because of what is played, how it is played, and upon what instruments it is played, everyone would agree is OT. And then there is music on the edges of that, where most people would agree its OT, but some would raise and eyebrow. And then further to the edges there would be music that is OT only to those who play BG, but OT players in general think its too progressive, or too modern, or whatever.

The logicians out there appeal to continuous logic or "fuzzy" logic, to manage these kinds of things. Me, I just play.

 :Mandosmiley:  :Coffee:

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## allenhopkins

I've dropped this thread in frustration about four times, but keep coming back to it.

What get under my skin -- other than the complete departure from the original question, which could be paraphrased as "what's a good way to play mandolin in an old-timey context?" -- are the definitional disputes.

_If_ one insists that only a certain kind of music -- fiddle-based, British-Isles-derived dance tunes, featuring chordal banjo, no-breaks ensemble playing, and few vocals -- qualifies as "old-time music," one excludes a whole galaxy of tunes, songs, and performers who considered themselves "old-time," and who most listeners and old-timey aficionados would also put in that category.  Where, then, do you classify the Blue Sky Boys, Allen Brothers (guitar, tenor banjo and kazoo -- is that "old-time"?), Carolina Tar Heels, Ernest Stoneman, Carter Family, Darby & Tarleton, Frank Hutchinson, Dixon Brothers, Karl & Harty, and uncounted others who didn't play that style of music, but are generally included in the "old time music" category?

How best to play fiddle tunes on the mandolin, with ornamentation, attack and phrasing that complements an old-time fiddle, is one thing.  Insisting on a rigid definition of a very much still-vital musical genre, is something else entirely.

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## poymando

There is certainly a place for a mando in old time music weather it is trying to sound like a mandolin or a fiddle. I took up the fiddle a couple of years back and it has really helped the way I think about fiddle tunes on the mando. Taking a few fiddle lessons might change the way you approach tunes on the mandolin.
There are also lots of great examples of the mando sounding like a mando (rather than a fiddle) on pre WWII commercial country music recordings.
In my opinion, listening closely to lots of OT music will help to inform your decision of what is the "right" thing to do with the mandolin in an old time string band setting.

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## JeffD

> In my opinion, listening closely to lots of OT music will help to inform your decision of what is the "right" thing to do with the mandolin in an old time string band setting.



Thats it right there. 

Listening is everything.

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## Bernie Daniel

Well, scgc.om you may not have recieved too much information on how to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle -- you asked very interesting question imo, btw.  

Some tried to address it -- but they were drowned out.  :Crying: 

But at least you got everyone's idea of what old time music is -- just in case you might have happened to have had a burning interest in that at the moment too!  :Wink: 

Maybe you should start a new string with the same question since all the (hot?) air is out of the other ballon now?   :Laughing:

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## JeffD

I am having a hard time making a fiddle sound like a fiddle, let alone a mandolin.

 :Laughing:  :Crying:

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## Tom Smart

> Well, scgc.om you may not have recieved too much information on how to make a mandolin sound like a fiddle -- you asked very interesting question imo, btw.  
> 
> Some tried to address it -- but they were drowned out.
> 
> But at least you got everyone's idea of what old time music is -- just in case you might have happened to have had a burning interest in that at the moment too!


I think there has been plenty of good advice regarding the original question--the best advice being listen and learn. The question "what is old time music" is absolutely relevant if it provides direction for listening and learning.

I have to take some of the responsibility for moving this thread in the direction of definitions. I dove into the discussion to counter the assertion that mandolins, and even guitars, are somehow not legitimate instruments in authentic old time music. I hope I've encouraged the original poster to think that, yes, there is a place for mandolin (and guitar, and cello, and piano, and tenor banjo, and kazoo, and...) in old time music, and that there are plenty of recorded examples to learn from.

Interestingly, on the other thread asking for advice on old time recordings, most of the answers point toward modern stuff--Bruce Molsky, Dirk Powell, Fuzzy Mountain, et. al. These guys are great, and there's nothing wrong with learning everything you can from them. But to get a really solid grounding, I think it's also important to go back to the scratchy old recordings of the original masters of the genre. Allen has listed a few of them above.

We're fortunate these days to have access to just about everything that was ever waxed, and the sheer variety and power of the early stuff is rarely matched today. Immersing yourself in that will get you a lot farther than reading through the Fiddler's Fakebook will. Here's a pretty good source: http://honkingduck.com/mc/node/1

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## poymando

I really agree with Tom. In my opinion, check out in order:
1-pre WWII commercial country recordings (lots of great reissues and free content on Honking Duck, Hadacol Cajun, Juneberry78s.com etc)
2-Field recordings of trad players (Lib of Congress, FRC etc)
3-Modern players like Molsky etc. (They have already done their homework and completed steps 1 and 2 and are speaking in their own voices)
 and if your lucky by timing or location...visit a tradition bearer.

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## woodwizard

> *Here is a live clip of a famous mandolin player playing my request for 'The Grey Eagle'.  Listen to his introduction to the tune!  http://theworld.com/~ereilly/greyeagle.mp3*


***
Great clip! there Evan... Thanks! That sounds old time to me. Tunes like that one, Jenny Lynn and many others ... well ... I just can't help but feel good everytime I hear them. I'm hooked.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Tom Smart:   I think there has been plenty of good advice regarding the original question--the best advice being listen and learn. The question "what is old time music" is absolutely relevant if it provides direction for listening and learning.
> 
>  I have to take some of the responsibility for moving this thread in the direction of definitions. I dove into the discussion to counter the assertion that mandolins, and even guitars, are somehow not legitimate instruments in authentic old time music. 
> 
> I hope I've encouraged the original poster to think that, yes, there is a place for mandolin (and guitar, and cello, and piano, and tenor banjo, and kazoo, and...) in old time music, and that there are plenty of recorded examples to learn from.


Yes Tom,  there was some good advice given -- you are correct about that.

I have been interested in this topic for a long time and my opinion on the question is that really, it is impossible to make a mandolin literally "sound like a fiddle" .

On its face that is a tad silly idea given the total difference in sound and the way the sound is created on the two instruments -- (can you make a church bell sound like an police siren?  :Laughing: .  

(And, no I do not mean that the poster was silly to ask the question!)

BUT what you can do with a mandolin is to work on creating the "feel" of fiddle music with your timing and emphasis - which is what the poster was getting at.

I was not intending to be critical about the OT aspects -- just commenting on it -- its just a message board not an act of congress here so I'm sorry if I came off that way --its kind of humorous really.

I agree with you completely -- no one "owns" the term old tyme or old time music nor should they be attempting to tell others what is or is not old time and what instruments are or are not "allowed"  IMO, that takes it from the relm of fun to something else.  People can offer definations but no one owns the dictionary IMO.

Contrary to the comment made somewhere in this discussion I have heard Uncle Earl members call their music "old time" in a public TV interview no less -- and of course they use a mandolin in the band....

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