# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  12 bar blues scale?

## tuckerman

I'm new and I did a search but could not find anything. Anyway my grandfather gave me his Mandolin in August and I stared to try and teach myself. That was ok but I just started to take lessons with an old dood down the road. I'm to practice a 12 bar blues scale in different notes. Here is where I have some trouble a G note as opposed to a G chord is throwing me for a loop. Is the G note the 2nd fret of the G string? And how about a G7 is that one fret back???


On Paper it goes GGGG GGGG GGGG ........

----------


## pickloser

Re: 12 bar blues scale? 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A "G" note can be found in many places on the mandolin. Going from closest to your face to furthest from your face while holding the mando in playing position, the strings are G, then D, then A, then E. (A way to remember is "(G)reat (D)anes (A)re (E)legant." 

The lowest string (the one closest to your face while playing) is the G string and is itself a G note when played open. One string further away from your face is tuned to be a D note. Fret this string at the fifth fret, and you have another G note. On the first string, the one furthest from your face, there is another G, fretted at the 3rd fret. There are others on up the neck. I suggest you do a search here or at Jazz Mando or many other places to find a chart of a mandolin fretboard with the notes written on it. 

G7 refers to a chord, not a note. It means play a G chord and add a dominant 7. A dominant 7 G chord, or G7, means you should add a flatted 7th tone to the chord, which for G would be an F note--which is a "flatted" F#. A G7 chord would be G, B, D, and F. (A major 7th, which would often be designated as "Gmaj7," means add to the chord the regular 7th tone of the scale, which would be F# in the G scale.) 

Notes that can be played in 12 bar blues would include the following tones of the major scale: 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7. For the G scale (G A B C D E F# G), 1 = G; b3 = Bb; 4 = C; b5 = Db/C#; 5 = D; b7 = F. So, generally, and others may have a different view of what a proper blues scale would be, the G blues scale is G Bb C-Db-D F G. 

The G blues scale notes can be played on the first seven frets of a mando as follows: 
G string: open string G, 3rd fret Bb, 5th fret C, 6th fret C#/Db, 7th fret D
D string: open D (repeating the last note on the previous string), 3rd fret F, 5th fret G
A string: 1st fret Bb, 3rd fret C, 4th fret Db, 5th fret D
E string: 1st fret F, 3rd fret G, 6th fret Bb

I call the 4th, b5, and 5 (in G, the C-Db-D) the "slidey notes," because I think they sound best when I slide thru them, up or down. 

You probably need to contact "old dood" and ask what he meant. I don't know if you are supposed to practice the chords for 12 bar blues in different keys or learn the blues scales for different keys, or both. 

Good luck and happy pickin'

----------


## mandroid

the  blues scale and the number of measures of the tune  are separate things.  you should realize .

saves future confusion when encountering a 16 or more measure arrangements .

----------


## tuckerman

> Re: 12 bar blues scale? 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> G7 refers to a chord, not a note. It means play a G chord and add a dominant 7. A dominant 7 G chord, or G7, means you should add a flatted 7th tone to the chord, which for G would be an F note--which is a "flatted" F#. A G7 chord would be G, B, D, and F. (A major 7th, which would often be designated as "Gmaj7," means add to the chord the regular 7th tone of the scale, which would be F# in the G scale.) 
> 
> ...


Thanks I think I will need to pull out the Mandolin and notes when I get home from work.

----------


## earthsave

Tuckerman, also poke around on this here website.  It's got tons of useful info.  This should get you started.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/lessons.html

http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/chords/ch.pl

http://www.mandolincafe.com/tabarc.html

----------


## tuckerman

ok he has it written as

gggg gggg gggg g7g7g7g7 cccc cccc gggg gggg dddd cccc gggg d7d7d7d7.

----------


## ApK

He is showing you a 12 bar blues chord progression in the key of G.  Looks like he's written out the beats in 4/4 time:
The letters he wrote each represent a chord for one beat.
Each group of 4 represents one measure, 4 beats per measure.
4 measures of a G chord, in his case he's saying to use G major for the first three, then the G7 chord, which is a popular bluesy extension, for the fourth.
Then two measures of C major chord, 
then two more of G major, 
then one of D major,
one of C major,
 one of G major
 and one of the D7 chord.

Old dudes with lots of mojo don't always use the clearest and most accurate terminology to convey the stuff they do in words.  If you get a good foundation on the basic terms and theory, then you'll understand what he's showing you and why, and you'll probably get even more out of it.

ApK

----------


## tuckerman

> ok he has it written as
> 
> gggg gggg gggg g7g7g7g7 cccc cccc gggg gggg dddd cccc gggg d7d7d7d7.


so its open G = open, G7 = 3ed fret, C = 5th fret, D = 7th fret, and D7 = 6th fret?

----------


## Mike Bromley

> ok he has it written as
> 
> gggg gggg gggg g7g7g7g7 cccc cccc gggg gggg dddd cccc gggg d7d7d7d7.




The letters refer to chords, Tuckerman.  See the image below.  These are the simplest chords for the mandolin, there are many other chord shapes thet can be used, but these will get you started.

----------


## ApK

No.  We are talking chords, you are thinking notes.  You need to follow some of the links above and get a basic understanding of what these terms mean.
You can't be expected to understand something you are told if you don't know what the words mean.

I may have to write up a primer.  I looked at a bunch of the free "intro to music to theory" websites online, and while there are many that are REALLY good,  many seem to start with clefs and staffs and other elements of written music or other seemingly complex or tedious subject that might turn people off from page one.

----------


## tuckerman

> The letters refer to chords, Tuckerman.  See the image below.  These are the simplest chords for the mandolin, there are many other chord shapes thet can be used, but these will get you started.


Thank you.  :Mandosmiley: 

Now how does that relate to to 1-2-34-5-6-78? Or is that something way different its all notes he scribbled down for me.

----------


## Mike Bromley

> Thank you. 
> 
> Now how does that relate to to 1-2-34-5-6-78? Or is that something way different its all notes he scribbled down for me.


I'm not sure on that one, but it looks as though he was describing timing by the way the numbers are written above.

HOWEVER

If he was describing scale notes, they are as follows:

Doh=1
ray=2
me=3
fah=4
so=5
la=6
tee=7
doh=8 (actually "1", again)

Refer back to the letters for the chords for a moment:  Notice they are laid out in twelve groups of four.

If you tap your foot four times, that is a measure, or bar (the twelve _BAR_ blues).  Each bar is four beats, hence the four chords marked.  There are twelve bars (the twelve groups of four).  If you play the chords on a 1-2-3-4 per bar, you will begin to hear the pattern of a blues tune.

----------


## pickloser

I think the 1 2 34 5 6 78 he scribbled down for you must mean he wants you to figure out the G scale.  He seems to be pointing out that the 3rd and 4th tones of a scale are on adjacent frets (no fret in between), and the 7th and 8th tones don't have a fret between them and are also on adjacent frets.  

G scale:  G A B C D E F# G
4th/G string--G is open string; A is fretted at the second fret away from the nut and the tuners; B is 4th fret; C is 5th fret

3rd/D string--D is the open D string; E is 2nd fret; F# is 4th fret; G is 5th fret

2nd/A string--A is open A string; B is 2nd fret; C is 3rd fret; D is 5th fret

1st/E string--E is open E string; F# is 2nd fret; G is 3rd fret

That's two octaves of the G scale, 1 2 34 5 6 78.  "8" is really the "1" an octave higher.  Notice that instead of playing any of those open strings, you could play that same note on the next lower (in pitch) string at the 7th fret.  Sing the note names as you pick each note, and you'll learn them faster and start training your ears at the same time.  It will sound like two runs of "Do Re Mi."

You might want to look for a book or DVD.  Professor McGann's would be a good choice.  Also check out the used stuff in the Accessories section of the Classifieds.  

Good luck and happy pickin,

----------


## Mike Bromley

Good Deciphering, Pickloser!  I pondered that for a while, and it drew a blank.  Then I noticed my pick was gone...

....Juuuuuuuuuuuuust kidding....

Hopefully we'll get young Tuckerman pointed in the right direction.

----------


## tuckerman

Thats it if I remember correctly. I can't wait to get home from work now and get this down for Thursday.

----------


## AlanN

> The letters refer to chords, Tuckerman.  See the image below.  These are the simplest chords for the mandolin, there are many other chord shapes thet can be used, but these will get you started.


Mike, I like that thumbnail chord chart, where did you get it?

----------


## Mike Bromley

> Mike, I like that thumbnail chord chart, where did you get it?


Five minutes in Paint!  I could conceivably whup up a whole mess of 'em in an hour or so.  Speaking of which, back to Tuckerman's ongoing lesson:

I forgot to include which fingers to use when forming the chords above.  My Bad.

T'man:  Your index finger is #1.  We'll get to the pinky (#4) later.

----------


## ApK

> Good Deciphering, Pickloser!


Yeah, good catch.  I was thinking timing or rhythm.
Reminds me of those pundle puzzles where you have you figure out that "III^3" means "ice cube"...maybe we should start a thread like that.....

----------


## MandoJam

I'm probably just echoing everything else that has been said but "12 Bar Blues Scale" makes no sense at all.  There is a "12 bar Blues" which is a traditional form--- and then there is a "Blues Scale" that plays over a 12 bar blues.  

12 bar blues in its most simple form is: (4 strums per chord)

G C G G C C G G D C G D

"Blues Scale" is Root(G) b3 4 b5 5 b7 (G)

----------


## Mike Bromley

> I'm probably just echoing everything else that has been said but "12 Bar Blues Scale" makes no sense at all.  There is a "12 bar Blues" which is a traditional form--- and then there is a "Blues Scale" that plays over a 12 bar blues.  
> 
> 12 bar blues in its most simple form is: (4 strums per chord)
> 
> G C G G C C G G D C G D
> 
> "Blues Scale" is Root(G) b3 4 b5 5 b7 (G)


We'll get to the bottom of this!  You're right, the thread title is a bit odd, but I think that Tuckerman's local teacher is one who knows little music theory, and has passed along some info for him to 'decipher'.

As for the simple form above, that would be one of many.  For neophyte T'man, sticking to one or two patterns is peobably good for now!

(Feel free to weigh in, T'man!)

 :Mandosmiley:

----------


## tuckerman

I was looking at last night and next is that same 12 bar blues but in E. Do I just move up the fret board 2 frets for everything? Which would make it a scale, maybe??

----------


## ApK

> I was looking at last night and next is that same 12 bar blues but in E. Do I just move up the fret board 2 frets for everything? Which would make it a scale, maybe??


No.  you don't just move the chord patterns up, and that is not a scale, and it wouldn't be 2 frets from G to E in any case, and it wouldn't up, it would down.  It's playing in a chord progression in a different key. 
You REALLY need to read just a little bit on what a note is, what scale is, what a chord is and what a key is.
I'm serious, you are doing your self a terrible disservice and holding your self back by just asking individual questions when you do not understand what the words mean.  You can't possibly understand the answers your getting with out that info. 

I will try to write something up at lunchtime if you haven't gotten a primer by then.

MandoJam, I'd argue that 12-bar blues in it's MOST basic form in GGGG CCGG DCGG, or end on D for a turnaround like his teacher showed him, no need throw in that 'quick IV' variation and confuse things more here yet!

ApK

----------


## Mike Bromley

> I was looking at last night and next is that same 12 bar blues but in E. Do I just move up the fret board 2 frets for everything? Which would make it a scale, maybe??


Nope!

You are going into uncharted territory...let's stay in G for a moment.

To review, a SCALE is doh-ray-me-fah-so-la-tee-doh.  Just to make sure, check out the attached tablature fragment below, and have a listen to its MP3 file.

----------


## tuckerman

> -what a note is
> -what scale is
> -what a chord is
> -what a key is
> 
> 
> I will try to write something up at lunchtime if you haven't gotten a primer by then.


That would be great I have looked all over the intertubes for "what is a mandolin note" I have not found much but have a lot more questions.

----------


## Mike Bromley

Now the CHORDS, refer to the earlier diagrams above.

Here is the TAB and the MP3 for the progression.  When viewing the tab image make sure you magnify it in its window.

Hope it helps!

----------


## John Flynn

This thread is proof that if you have to ask what the blues is, can't nobody explain it to ya'!  :Cool:

----------


## Mike Bromley

> This thread is proof that if you have to ask what the blues is, can't nobody explain it to ya'!


Not that I would have a clue, but if one were to ask Yank Rachell to explain the blues, could he do so?  Purely theortical since Yank isn't with us, but many of the finest musicians have no clue about theory.  It's a feeling thing, a direct connection with the art.

The fellow who made first musical contact with our thread-starter had some ideas about how to PLAY, but perhaps not much in the explain-that-theory department.  

If all of our attempts result in a fellow who can begin to hear music coming out of his mando, maybe, just maybe, he'll know what the blues is with nary an explanation needed.

"And remember folks, the blues ain't nothin' but a good man feelin' bad"

Amen, Willie Brown.

----------


## earthsave

> That would be great I have looked all over the intertubes for "what is a mandolin note" I have not found much but have a lot more questions.


A note is a note and a scale is a scale.  Doesnt matter what instrument you have.

Learn and practice what is show in G above.  

You can change it to E later when you learn more.

----------


## hattio

Tuckerman,
     There's no such thing as a "mandolin note," or rather, no such thing as a note specific to mandolin.  Notes are notes are notes.  Notes can be played on various instruments, but they are the same notes, whether they are played on a mandolin, guitar or fluglehorn.  Again, do some basic research on what note, chord, and scales are.  Try wikipedia.

----------


## ApK

I started writing a music theory primer at lunch time today.  Then I got on a role and forgot I had a job to go back to.   But I'm still only about a third of the way done. 
I'm going to finish it, but Tuckerman will probably have his doctorate in musicology by that time.
I will post it when it's done.  If any one might like to see it before it's done and maybe offer some feedback, let me know.  The later at night I try to write, the more it seems to slide from 'primer' to 'manifesto.'

ApK

----------


## Mike Bromley

> ...the more it seems to slide from 'primer' to 'manifesto.'
> 
> ApK


Someone had to do it...

Now THAT's what I'm talkin' about! :Mandosmiley:  :Popcorn: 

I'll draw the chord charts and TAB the exercises...lol

----------


## MandoNicity

I'd just like to make the observation that you guys deserve plaudits for the time and patience you all have taken to guide this beginner.  Very commendable of you.  A tip of the hat...

----------


## Mike Bromley

> I'd just like to make the observation that you guys deserve plaudits for the time and patience you all have taken to guide this beginner.  Very commendable of you.  A tip of the hat...


Arnold Schultz's influence goes a long way....

And besides, once constructed, the method can be used to lure more unsuspecting MandoNewbies.

...And, well, thanks!  I hear a Library Truck coming, it must be ApK's Mandofesto! :Laughing: 

And, to be able to do this under the bright glare of so many fine theorists & teachers will be a true test of it's effectiveness.

----------


## tuckerman

> I'd just like to make the observation that you guys deserve plaudits for the time and patience you all have taken to guide this beginner.  Very commendable of you.  A tip of the hat...


For sure thanks you all have help me a great deal and now the tips of my figures hurt and my wife thinks I should go somewhere else to practice.

----------


## earthsave

> For sure thanks you all have help me a great deal and now the tips of my figures hurt and my wife thinks I should go somewhere else to practice.


Probably already be typed, but listen to the blues to learn the hear and play the blues.  I remember trying to learn a shuffle way back when I was starting guitar.  Hearing it was the key to playing it.

----------


## Mike Bromley

> For sure thanks you all have help me a great deal and now the tips of my figures hurt and my wife thinks I should go somewhere else to practice.


....and another long association with Italy's National Bird & Kentucky's Finest Ambassdor commences....
 :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Mike Bunting

> I'd just like to make the observation that you guys deserve plaudits for the time and patience you all have taken to guide this beginner. Very commendable of you. A tip of the hat...


Considering he weather in Mike Bromley's hometown of Calgary. a tip of the toque might be more appropriate!

----------


## tuckerman

So I had another lesson last night and when I showed him my 12 bar blues scale he chuckled at my d7. What he is trying to show me I guess is that you can find cords in a bunch of places as long as we follow some rules. So he showed me a better spot to play a d7 which fit what I was playing.

----------


## JimRichter

Blues?  Don't you all know that there is no room in the blues for a mandolin.

Jim

----------


## tuckerman

> Blues?  Don't you all know that there is no room in the blues for a mandolin.
> 
> Jim


Hey I'm re watching all of your youtube vids right now (Spanish Castle Magic). Thanks man.

----------


## Mike Bromley

> So I had another lesson last night and when I showed him my 12 bar blues scale he chuckled at my d7. What he is trying to show me I guess is that you can find cords in a bunch of places as long as we follow some rules. So he showed me a better spot to play a d7 which fit what I was playing.


The rule for D7...A C-note.  Up here in Canada C has Special Significance.  A C-note (C for _Cent_) is one hundred dollars.  Uh-oh, mandolin lessons with a bit of French mixed in....

I'm glad your (my) wacky D7 chord made your mentor chuckle.  First rule of mandolins....

A note about notes:  If you notice my wacky D7, it is formed from the D chord, and adding a C *NOTE* to the chord by fretting the A strings at fret three.  

There are many different ways to form chords as long as the rules are met, and you are discovering early where all of this can take you!

 :Mandosmiley: 




> Blues?  Don't you all know that there is no room in the blues for a mandolin.
> 
> Jim


If the inverse wasn't true, *BLUE*grass would never have existed.  Apparently there is room in the mandolin for the blues.

----------


## bluesmandolinman

> Blues?  Don't you all know that there is no room in the blues for a mandolin.
> 
> Jim


 :Disbelief: 

hehehe nice Jim

----------


## ApK

It ain't called *blueS*grass, Mikey, boy.

----------


## Mike Bromley

> It ain't called *blueS*grass, Mikey, boy.



Nope, it sho' nuff ain't, bubba! :Laughing:

----------


## JimRichter

----If the inverse wasn't true, BLUEgrass would never have existed. Apparently there is room in the mandolin for the blues. ---

I was making a joke.  I'm a blues mandolinist.  

JR

----------


## Mike Bromley

> ----If the inverse wasn't true, BLUEgrass would never have existed. Apparently there is room in the mandolin for the blues. ---
> 
> I was making a joke.  I'm a blues mandolinist.  
> 
> JR


That makes two of us... :Laughing:

----------


## MandoJam

Maybe if we could eliminate that "Bill Monroe" guy from the equation, we could all be discussing "Happygrass"!

----------


## i.play.the.mando

ok so i just got a mando for christmas. and ive played many other string instruments (guitar, bass, banjo) so im picking it up quite fast. i figured out the blues in g but i dont have the greatest understanding of chords on the mando yet. so how would i play the blues in other keys? like d?

----------


## ApK

Here's a belated holiday present to Tuckerman, i.p.t.mando and anyone else who thinks maybe they are missing something basic.

Attached is a first draft and I welcome (polite and constructive) feedback.

Hope you find it useful,

ApK

----------


## hattio

ApK,
    The primer is very good in general.  Two suggestions I would make; more emphasis on the I, IV, V, being the root of most songs, and two make it clearer that between E and F and B and C are only 1/2 of a step between them.

----------


## ApK

Thanks, Hattio.

If the current overwhelming lack of interest lets up, encouraging me to revise it,  I'll incorporate your suggestions.

ApK

----------


## gregjones

> I'm a blues mandolinist.


I hope to be able to say that myself one day.

Right now I'm a mandowhacker with the blues.

----------


## pickloser

ApK--I thought you did a marvelous job with your primer.  I especially appreciated learning all the interval names.  That was a lot of work and you deserve many thanks.  
So here's one:
Thanks!

----------


## Mike Bromley

> overwhelming lack of interest


Read: "buried in the holiday season"

Good job ApK.  I'm guessing that tuckerman is immersed somewhere, not-so-quietly nursing his new-found obsession.

----------


## ApK

Hey, that was easy...wonder if I needed a license to fish for compliments around here?

Seriously, thanks, guys.

And about Tuckerman, yeah, I guess it's a double edge sword, but once you can play G, C and D, there's so much to do, it's tempting to stop with all the silly book learning and just make music.
As one book put it "Careers have been launched on less."

Hope you're having fun out there!

ApK

----------


## mandoannie

ApK 
Want to voice my thanks as well.

I had a bit of an incident with a jam bustin' prima donna last night that has shaken my confidence and sent me running back to the closet to learn some music theory before I venture out and try to taking a lead break again with that particular fellow. Your primer is logical, concise and easy to understand. It will keep me company nicely along with PickL's 'useful bluesy pattern for new players' while I work to regain my confidence.

ann

----------


## Mike Bromley

> ApK 
> Want to voice my thanks as well.
> 
> I had a bit of an incident with a jam bustin' prima donna last night that has shaken my confidence and sent me running back to the closet to learn some music theory before I venture out and try to taking a lead break again with that particular fellow. Your primer is logical, concise and easy to understand. It will keep me company nicely along with PickL's 'useful bluesy pattern for new players' while I work to regain my confidence.
> 
> ann


Never let a jam-busting prima donna be the reason to learn more music....

...having said that, at some point your ambition will silence the turkey once and for all! :Chicken:

----------


## tuckerman

> Here's a belated holiday present to Tuckerman, i.p.t.mando and anyone else who thinks maybe they are missing something basic.
> 
> Attached is a first draft and I welcome (polite and constructive) feedback.
> 
> Hope you find it useful,
> 
> ApK


ApK, thank you for this I was thinking of stopping my lessons but after reading this and asking a bunch of questions last night things are starting to click. I think I can almost always know if the discussion is of notes or chords now.

----------


## tuckerman

> Hey, that was easy...wonder if I needed a license to fish for compliments around here?
> 
> Seriously, thanks, guys.
> 
> And about Tuckerman, yeah, I guess it's a double edge sword, but once you can play G, C and D, there's so much to do, it's tempting to stop with all the silly book learning and just make music.
> As one book put it "Careers have been launched on less."
> 
> Hope you're having fun out there!
> 
> ApK


Yeah I don't have a book. My instructor (which I would pay just to hear him play) just has all these print outs and he scratches out cord shapes and different scales for me always with the 1,4,5 highlighted. He said I'm lucky I found him because I could have found a instructor that just hands me a book with no expiation for why the stuff in the book is important or how it relates to jamming out.

----------


## stratman62

Apk
Thanks for so simply stating what I have been trying to instill in one of my students.
Needless to say, I have printed a hardcopy for him and have insisted that he keep it
with him for reference 24/7. He is a great kid with no self-confidence and a learning dis-
ability, but I have learned to present with multi views of the same information until 
the light bulb comes on. Very satisfying.
Thanks again. :Mandosmiley:

----------


## ApK

> ApK, thank you for this I was thinking of stopping my lessons but after reading this and asking a bunch of questions last night things are starting to click. I think I can almost always know if the discussion is of notes or chords now.


That is truly gratifying to hear, I'm glad it was helpful!

It is possible for some people to learn to play -- really well -- by just watching and listening to another player.  But if words and numbers come into it, as they must for many of us,  I think it's important to be comfortable with what the words and numbers mean.




> but I have learned to present with multi views of the same information until
> the light bulb comes on. Very satisfying.


That's a mark of a good educator!  Satisfying indeed!

Thanks,
ApK

----------


## woodwizard

> ----If the inverse wasn't true, BLUEgrass would never have existed. Apparently there is room in the mandolin for the blues. ---
> 
> I was making a joke.  I'm a blues mandolinist.  
> 
> JR


And a pretty dad burn good one I might add!  :Mandosmiley:  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## hattio

mandoannie,
    Please don't let the jam busting prima donna keep you from playing out.  If anything, I would wait until he's there and intentionally screw up.  Play your best, then right before you end it, look right at him and go completely off key.  He'll get the picture eventually and shut the hell up.

----------

