# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Convert standard notation to mandolin tab

## AlanN

I've searched the archives, cannot find. I have tabledit, not sure if this is supported. Ideally, I'd like to import a .pdf of sheet music and have it converted to the standard mandolin tab format. Any ideas?

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## 12 fret

You might check Sibelius wesite. Their G7 software will do this for guitar but I do not know if it supports mandolin or non- 6 string instruments

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## R. Kane

G7 isn't freeware. In fact, it ain't cheap, and it ain't easy. Steep learning curve, lots of new terminology, and you need a Ph.D in music composition to understand the threads on the Sibelius forum. 

I'm about 6 or 7 hours into trying to scan some notation and create mandolin tab, which it (and I) should be able to do. Still pretty ugly output. As I'm not really planning on using 98% of the program's capabilities, its difficult to decide whether its a better use of time to read and experiment with the program or practice scales on the mandolin. Or, come to think of it, actually working it out on the mandolin. 

P'rhaps Professor McGann or another of the musically and/or Sibelius-literate would toss us a bit of help with a short tutorial.

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## Narayan Kersak

_&lt;Comment removed for violating board posting guidelines&gt;_

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## R. Kane

Thanks Ralian, but I'm actually hoping to learn to catch fish, not be given a fish, if you know what I mean. 

And as for the business, John McGann does transcriptions that are reasonably priced and dead-on accurate, from CDs or other sources. He transcribed a few tunes from a friend's recordings, and I think he also transcribed the Grisman/Garcia songbooks.

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## Lou Scuderi

Sibelius works with mando notation and tab, but is _extremely_ expensive. I just learned how to read both. Saves time and money.

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## mando.player

Arcane, I gave up trying to scan into G7 a long time ago. Since I'm mostly dealing with fiddle tunes and jazz head out of the Real Book, it's not too bad to input them by hand.

I have had success importing MIDI files into G7. I've done this with some classical pieces.

There are a few aspects of G7 that I really like. It does a good job of coming up with usable chord diagrams. You can even add to the library if you don't find one you like. The grids are kind of nice for doing jazz tunes with extended chords. Transposing music to another key is also pretty easy.

As for price, I think $80 is reasonable for what G7 does. The printed output is pretty nice compared to Tabledit.

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## Mike Buesseler

I seem to be the only one around here who uses Melody Assistant. Not sure it will do .pdf to tab, but they do have a free app that will play .pdf files as midis. Melody Assistant cost me $18 about 8 years ago. I must have gotten 30 free updates by now, and it imports, exports, converts, reads almost anything I need to do. Check it out, at least.

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## cooper4205

Alan-

Tottle's Bluegrass mandolin book has a key for converting notation to tab and vice versa. let me know if you don't have a copy.

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## EdSherry

It's one thing to translate between "music notation" (that has already been entered into a music program) and tab. It's another thing entirely to try to scan a PDF file and try to create usable tab from the scanned image, which was the original request.

I'm not aware of any program that does that at all well, but others may be.

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## MikeEdgerton

I just had an inquiry from a friend today about Musical OCR software. I wasn't even aware that anyone made such an animal.

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## R. Kane

Ok, after a few more hours tonight getting into Sibelius G7, and using scanned sheet music (simple melody, no chords), here's what I was able to do with Peter Ostrushko's Heart of the Heartland. I haven't figured out yet how to send a section up an octave, create chords or diagrams.

Comments and improvements welcome. 

If you open in windows picture viewer you should be able to enlarge it to normal size.

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## mando.player

If you select all of your notation (not the tab) you can transpose it by going Notes &gt; Transpose. That will bring up a window that allows you to go up or down based a given interval. If you selected your notation as mandolin specific, it will detect notes that are outside the range of the mandolin. Then you can copy/paste the notation to the TAB staff for the new fingerings.

One irritating side effect of this is that the chord letters are then copied to the TAB staff. I tend to get the arrangement where I want it, then setup the chords. If you want grids instead of letters, click the note that you want the grid over and do Create &gt; Chord Diagram. A window will pop up that defaults to guitar. Change the tuning to mando and you get a decent selection of grids to work from.

On a related note you can also adjust the options on how the tab is calculated. For example, suppose you have a tune that is in first position and you want it up the neck instead. You can set starting and ending fret limits and tell it not to use open strings.

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## R. Kane

Thanks, will try these tips next time I have time for the computer at home.

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## jmcgann

With the amount of time (and effort) spent scanning and messing with software, you could have taught yourself how to read notation. 

Your mind is the best computer there is! Trust me, it's worth the effort to learn notation if you want to go beyond simply imitating others, and gain an understanding of how music works. It's just part of the puzzle, but a very helpful part

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## KennyR

Reading notation is easier then tab. If you know the key, for the most part, you know what notes NOT to play. IE if the key is in D. You know the note will be C# and not C. You can throw out G#, Bb, ECT. You can remove almost half the notes in a chromatic scale. Trust me that makes everything easier. 

Plus you can use violin, guitar, [any instrument in the key of C], music.

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## mando.player

I've been on the edge of starting to learn for a while now. I put it off because I was goign to Kamp. Then I put it off because I was learning the material that I got from Kamp. Then I put it off because....well, I think the pattern is clear.

In an effort to get closer to starting I've purchased a book by Debora Chen called, "Standard Notation for the Tab Addicted Mandolinist". The book does NOT come with any of the following:
- Pixie Dust
- Magic Wand
- Wizard who may have their own wand
- Silver Bullet(s)
- Servants or minions to do the learning for you

What the 35 page book does provide is a structured method to learn to read standard notation on the mandolin. The method is mandolin specific and starts with open strings and progresses through each string. Classical "themes" are used throughout the book for reading exercises.

John's matter of fact post, while not directed at me, has nudged me over the edge. Tonight I'll sit down, rearrange my practice routine and make some room for Ms. Chen. I'm sure Greg Horne and Ted Eschliman won't mind the company...lol. I'm not sure how long it will take me to get through the book. It's deceptively thin. I guess there is only one way to find out.

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## KennyR

It's easy MP. No Pixie Dust required. The only hard part is finding out the Key sig. 

Get a book on Scales and Modes, Google "circle of fifths", and your set.

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## Adam Tracksler

Charlie, where do you pick up that Deborah Chen book?

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## mando.player

Yeah...that doesn't really click with me. I understand what you're saying Kenny, but I can't seem to make that approach connect with looking at a dot on a piece of paper and knowing what string/fret combination I should play.

It's sort of like how some people can think of the mandolin like an upside down guitar. It just doesn't make sense. I understand the logic, but my head doesn't work that way. The book I picked up doesn't deal with much theory beyond basic note durations. Actually I'm probably ahead of the game on the theory. I just need to learn to read.

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## mando.player

It's self published, so you have to contact her directly at:
stringthingm@sbcglobal.net

I found out about it from the following workshop notice here on the Cafe.

As I mentioned before, it's a no nonsense approach. There isn't a lot of hand holding. It's more of a "here's the rockpile, here's your hammer, now get to work" type of book. I guess once I'm at the bottom of the pile I'll be able to read...lol.

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When you read standard notation and play it on the mandolin you are creating mandolin tab in your head. In many cases making a not-the-best decision as to which string to play a note on.

When you play mandolin tab on a mandolin you don't have to convert _anything_ in your head. You don't have to make _any_ decisions about which string to play a note on.

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## AlanN

> When you play mandolin tab on a mandolin you don't have to convert _anything_ in your head. You don't have to make _any_ decisions about which string to play a note on.


That is if you limit yourself exclusively to what is written, and only play those tab markings. Maybe that is what you do. I don't do that. If I see a pattern that can be done elsewhere on the fretboard, I'll use it. It's a tool. 

I'm not sure why tab is so denigrated by some folks. I know all the arguments, so no need to re-hash them. And I actually agree with them. I read music too. I use all 3 gifts bestowed on me - reading tab, reading notes, and my ears.

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## mando.player

The assumption here is that you have TAB to read. If you don't then you have a problem...LOL.

I think the combination of TAB and Notation are optimal. TAB alone is worthless unless you really know the tune in your head (or if the TAB indicates note duration). There are a lot of genres that just don't use TAB on a regular basis. Jazz and Classical are the two that come to mind right away.

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## AlanN

> #TAB alone is worthless unless you really know the tune in your head (or if the TAB indicates note duration). #There are a lot of genres that just don't use TAB on a regular basis. #Jazz and Classical are the two that come to mind right away.


To the first point above: maybe to you it is. To me, it's not. Even if I don't know the tune, or if no duration is given, it is still useful. Joe Carr tabbed out all his mandolin solos on Jazz Grass. No durations were given (he apologized for that) and some of the tunes were not well-known. Still, the tabs had benefit.

To your second point, this has been said again and again. Why say it again?

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## mando.player

Point taken. TAB is drastically less useful without note durations. I'd compare it to a paragraph without any spaces.




> Tothefirstpointabove:maybetoyouitis.Tome,it'snot.E  venifIdon'tknowthetune,orifnodurationisgiven,itiss  tilluseful.JoeCarrtabbedoutallhismandolinsoloso
> nJazzGrass.Nodurationsweregiven(heapologizedfortha  t)andsomeofthetuneswerenotwell-known.Sti
> ll,thetabshadbenefit.


The information is there, it's just difficult to work with it.

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## AlanN



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I think the best way to get a tab from standard notation is to manually enter it into Tabledit. You get immediate confirmation that you have the correct note and duration and when you are done you can have the computer play the tune for you so you have an idea what it should sound like. 

After you've done a few you know where a lot of those notes are. You can also see when you might need to choose another position to play a particular phrase. You kind of back into reading standard notation, maybe not well enough to play from it but well enough to understand what it says.

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## ruraltradpunk

I taught myself the basics of reading notation this week - I was inspired by attending a workshop last week where all the tunes learned were given out in handouts written in notation. Despite my initial panic I managed to hold my own at the workshop by just getting by with my ear, but it certainly was the kick up the backside I needed to sit down and just learn what the dots all mean! I'm delighted now that I did because now I'm no longer restricted to purchasing tune books that are written in TAB. I had a couple of great fiddle books laying around that I was basically ignoring because they were all in notation, now I find myself with a wealth of tunes to learn!

Jill

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## dcc

> I found out about it from the following workshop notice here on the Cafe.
> 
> As I mentioned before, it's a no nonsense approach. There isn't a lot of hand holding. It's more of a "here's the rockpile, here's your hammer, now get to work" type of book. I guess once I'm at the bottom of the pile I'll be able to read...lol.


hi charlie. thanks for mentioning my book 

dang... maybe i should have named one of untitled jigs, "pixie dust" ! 
pile of rocks? hmmm, and i thought i was being gentle, in a no nonsense kind of way...  

how about 'stack of rocks'? no need to crush them, and also, nothing will fall on you...  take them off the stack in the order presented, and yup, you will be able to read when you get to the bottom. (can be quite painless-- 15 minutes a day for a month would probably do the trick...)

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## mando.player

I wasn't trying to be harsh Debora, I like your "stack" analogy better. The book is very straight forward and focused. Which is good, nothing to distract or get in the way.

My start day BTW is Monday. I just need to find a free block of time I can devote to this that doesn't have mando before or after. I'm going to need a clear head for this to sink in.

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## dcc

Starting monday? Hey, cool  :Cool:  #Hope it goes well. #

As for sinking in, i think one of the big snags lots of trad players hit is from trying to #read the entire range of the neck right away. #It's too many different notes, across too big a range, and it gets discouraging. #Too many things to remember all at once.

 It's much easier to learn them in smaller groups. (open strings first, then pitches on individual strings-- associated with a diatonic key, not chromatically-- and then put them all together.)

It's analogous to recognizing an 11-digit number at a glance. #when does that get easy? #never. #it is a hardwired limitation of human cognition. #But we can get around it by 'chunking' things into groups, so 11-digits turns into 3 smaller groups, and then it is easy:

for example:
18005551212 #is more easily recognized (and remembered!) as 1-800-555-1212

chunking... it's the way to go. #painless, too, mostly. #5 groups: #first the open strings, then four pitches on each string across 4 strings (a nice friendly key, like D or G), give each one a week, and you will be standard notation literate in a month without any (or anyway not much) pain.

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## 12 fret

I think different people relate to and retain symbolic information in different ways making both tab and notation useful. They each have their own strengths in particular settings and there's never a downside to more knowledge. TAB is a much older form of representing music but can be useful depending on how you percieve and retain information.

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## jmcgann

> TAB is a much older form of representing music but can be useful depending on how you percieve and retain information.


Tab was developed before polyphony had developed much, and definitely long before average players had much of a conception of harmony...'round about 350 or so years ago, things began to change, and a more advanced and universal system for notating music, across the board and regardless of instrument, was developed to suit these needs.

Tab is an archaic tool that, like a shovel, still works fine for certain things...but it's not the best for brain surgery in this age of anesthesia, though

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## mando.player

When I was in college I did some progamming within different departments. The sociology department had this mapping system that would take in census data and produce maps with different layers or overlays. For example you could produce a street map of a city with shaded areas for population density of males, between the ages of 25-35, who make more than $50,000 annually and declare no religous affiliation. To the normal person this data is pretty useless, but to the person who requested it it may reveal a wealth of information.

One could view notation as the base map and tab as a specific overlay for that map. Classical music is as good an example as any. Suppose you had an intense urge to play one of Bach's Cello Suites, but the piece in it's native form didn't fall within the range of the mandolin. It needs to be transposed to another key, but which key? Using a combination of notation and tab, you could use software to find the "right" key. One that maps out nicely on the fretboard or makes the most of open strings.

I know this might an extreme example, but I think the main benefit of TAB is that it tells you exactly what to do. Unfortunately, notation for fretted instruments can't effectively convey exactly which D note to play. Now, whether you want that much information is a personal preference. I guess I just have a nuanced opinion of tab.

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## mrmando

If you happen to have the full version of Sibelius, it couldn't be easier to do the conversion. Select the standard-notation staff, copy it, and paste it onto the tab staff. Voila! Instant tab. 

I didn't figure this out until yesterday. Now I no longer have to enter everything twice.

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## mando.player

Actually, my semi-crippled version (G7) also does this. Constraining the TAB fingering options is useful if you want to make the TAB closed (i.e. no open strings). The learning curve can be steep, but there is a lot you can do.

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## mrmando

> I know this might an extreme example, but I think the main benefit of TAB is that it tells you exactly what to do. Unfortunately, notation for fretted instruments can't effectively convey exactly which D note to play.


Which is why I don't like tab so much; it just dictates fingering and interpretation instead of letting you work those things out on your own. If it really matters to the composer what string you play something on, he or she can certainly write in "sul D," etc., or put in position guides and fingerings over the noteheads. Check out any intermediate violin book and you're likely to find all that stuff. If, on the other hand, you're left to work out all those things on your own, then you just might become a smarter player in the process.

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## mando.player

As someone who's just learning to read notation, figuring out where to play things is a little overwhelming. Ideally, I'd love to get to a point where I can open a Real Book and play a head within a short period of time (with the "where to play it" question not being an issue). Until I get to that point, I'm using the tools that I have available to me.

As for adding guides/position markings/etc to notation, yes that can be done. I guess I was referring to "standard" standard notation, not instrument specific standard notation 

Hopefully in a year I won't care because I'll be a super-sonic, bad-a$$ sight reader...lol.

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## Ed Goist

> Alan-
> 
> Tottle's Bluegrass mandolin book has a key for converting notation to tab and vice versa. let me know if you don't have a copy.


Thought I'd resurrect an old thread instead of starting a new one...

The key mentioned above (it's on page 156 of Tottle's book) is quite good, but it is printed in ridiculously small print, making the conversion process from notation to tab tedious and hard on the eyes. Although too small, the layout of Tottle's notation to tab 'map' is outstanding: It displays the note location, the tab location, and the note name for every note in the mandolin's 3 octave range (Open G string to the second G on the E string [fret 15]).

Since the chart/map is so small, I was hoping to find an on-line version which I could download and/or print. However, and quite surprisingly, I can not find anything like this on-line! Does anyone know where one might be hiding?

Well, if an on-line version doesn't turn up, I'll probably just head over to Kinko's and get Tottle's chart enlarged as much as possible without losing the necessary resolution.

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## John McGann

Here is a free guide to help you convert your tab reading skills into notation reading skills.

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## Loretta Callahan

Thanks, John ... your pdf is a great reference for musical notation; I like your section on rhythm and how you visually laid out the different time signatures.

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## Ed Goist

Thanks very much John. Very thorough, helpful and well written.

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## Ed Goist

I'm back from the copiers with a larger, readable version of Tottle's Notation-Tab / Tab-Notation dictionary!

I have a question for those who knew tab first, and then learned standard notation. When reading standard notation now while you play, do you 'translate' the notation into tablature in your head as you read it?

I find it really interesting how much like learning a language all of this is.

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