# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Learning to play by ear

## PAMandoMan

I've been taking mandolin lessons for around 9 months now and I was thinking about trying to learn to play by ear. I was looking at Mel Bay's You can teach Yourself: Mandolin by ear,but having played for some time I don't know if that will work.Has anyone used that book or any other book on the same subject and if so what did you think? I'd like to hear your advice and ideas on this.

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mandopat

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## Paul Busman

If you've been playing for 9 months you should know your way around the fingerboard fairly well.  Try playing some tunes that you already know really well by heart.  On mandolin, whistle, flute, etc, I've found that once I have a tune well entrenched in my head, it's pretty easy to get it to come out of the instrument.  Try simple Christmas carols, folk tunes, TV ads, pop songs, etc.  Again, for me the key is learning the tune well enough that I can confidently hum or whistle it (lips, not pennywhistle)-- if I can do that the rest is pretty easy.

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## Jim Ferguson

Greetings......I cannot read music to save my life!!!!  I can follow tabs but my modus operandi is learning by ear.  I am very fortunate to come from a "musically inclined family" i.e. we could all sing & carry a tune and so it is very easy for me to hear a song and within a matter of minutes I can play it (certainly to no standard of excellence but to my personal standard).
Here is my recommendation.........listen to as many songs in the musical genre(s) of your liking and have your mandolin ready to roll as you listen and start playing along with the songs.  I used to do that all the time to Sirius Bluegrass channel and I learned so much simply by playing along with the pros.
Another recommendation........Jam!  Jam!  Jam! as often as possible......you'll hear tons of songs that others love and will learn quickly how to play those tunes even if rudimentary at 1st......your expertise will improve the more you play.
And......certainly get some of the lesson books that are out there to learn from too........they are very helpful.  I like Fretboard Roadmaps for Mandolin.  The book Mandolin Primer by Bert Casey is good too.  I also go to You Tube where there are lots of mandolin lessons on video.
Peace,
Jim

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mandopat

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## Brent Hutto

I'm also somewhere around 9 months in and I can pick out any melody that I'm likely to be able to play. I have to pick it out slowly the first time and then play it a few times to get it memorized but it comes pretty quick. But it does have to be something I can hum, like Paul mentions.

Where I'm totally at sea is hearing harmony. I mean if it's a little folk tune you can play D, G, A7, D under I can hear that after a few times listening. But for anything beyond that I'm out of luck. So I'm working on hearing chord progressions for about 10 minutes at the end of (roughly) every other weekly mandolin lesson. As in my teacher establishes the key for me and then plays different progressions with various voicings and I may a more or less informed guess about the chords involved.

To my surprise, after just 8-10 short sessions like that there's at least as much "informed" as "guess" for anything normal. Now if it's some longhaired jazz progression I'd be up the creek without an oar but I'm much better at the easier to hear ones than I thought I'd be. Pretty sure there's no substitute for just putting in the time listening and trying to hear.

But melodies I think you can just do real simple ones, real slow and gradually move up the degree of difficulty and speed as you get good at it.

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## JeffD

> Another recommendation........Jam!  Jam!  Jam! as often as possible......you'll hear tons of songs that others love and will learn quickly how to play those tunes even if rudimentary at 1st......your expertise will improve the more you play.


Of all the things you can do, and there is a lot of good advice on this tread, but of all the things you could do, playing regularly is probably the most effective for learning and developing your ability to play by ear.

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## Ivan Kelsall

I'm a totally self-taught ear player on Banjo ,Guitar & now Mandolin.When i began playing banjo 48 years ago,it was the ONLY way to learn.There was nothing else for it,so i had no excuses,i either played by ear or i didn't play at all. Naturally my learning that way has helped tremendously when it came to taking up Mandolin 5 1/2 years ago.
   Playing by ear takes time initially,but the more you do it,the better _you're able_ to do it,you develop what i term a _'quick ear'_. The way i do it doesn't involve any books, 48 years ago there were none - in the UK at any rate.
   Take a tune that you want to play,something that's within your capabilities technically.Listen to it over & over until you have the tune 'in your head'.Then what i did (do),is to play the tune on CD & try to find the 'sounds' on the CD on the fingerboard. I say _sounds_ because it's not necessary to know the _name of the note_ to begin with,you'll learn those as you go along.You'll then be doing what Mike Compton calls the _''hunt & peck method''_. In other words,finding the right 'sound' & then picking it.
If you play along with the recording over & over,you'll come to be able to anticipate the way the tune goes & you'll give yourself more time to find the more ellusive 'sounds'. As  i said,it does take time,but the more you do it,the easier it becomes,& every tune that you learn,becomes another brick in the wall for you to build on.
   Learning from music & / or TAB,has it's own benefits,but learning to play by ear has it's own rewards too. I find it very easy to join in a jam session,even if a tune isn't one that i know. I can pick up the bare bones of a tune very easily from whatever source.
    Stick with it & you'll understand what i mean,but do get the tune(s) in your head. It's a lot of repetition,but you'll soon be able to hear the tunes 'in your head' without a recording,so simply use the recording(s) as a 'reference' to highlight any errors,
                                                                                                                                                                  Ivan :Wink:

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mandopat

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## PAMandoMan

Well,I asked for help and I got some so thanks.I hate to say this but I am not very good at teaching myself without any sort of resorces to help me however. Everything you guys have said has been helpful but I'm hoping to locate something to use to help guide me along.I have already started trying to pick out some stuff(but haven't had much luck) in case you're wondering.

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## SincereCorgi

A smartass (but good) ear-training website pointed out that the way to get good at playing by ear is to _play by ear a lot_, pretty close to what Jeff said. Just try to make it a habit– play along with TV, for example. Play along with the music in the commercials, the musical guest on a talk show, incidental music, all of it forces you to try to catch the key and the melody on the fly and doesn't give you the luxury of running it over and over again, getting too comfortable with it (which has its merits, but there's something to be said for being on your toes for song after song).

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## abuteague

I'm learning by ear now with an instructor. No notation. I get the tunes to learn and listen to them 50 times or so over a week. Then I put them into "audacity" which is a free open source software application. I open them up in that software and go to effects where I choose 'tempo' and make the tune twice as long(half as fast). I save that file and play along with it. 
Finally, I loop it and play along. The first day of playing along is embarrassing.  :Redface:  The second day is better. After 4 days at it, you are 90% there.  :Smile:  I get the rest of the tune by playing along with my instructor.
I don't think you need an instructor to do this. I'm told that if I keep at it, new tunes will take less time.

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## mandocrucian

> Try playing some tunes that you* already know* really well by heart. On mandolin, whistle, flute, etc, I've found that once I have a tune well entrenched in my head, it's pretty easy to get it to come out of the instrument. Try simple Christmas carols, folk tunes, TV ads, pop songs, etc.


*Definitely!** "Memory Jukebox"*, as I call the exercise of trying to play any melody that might be/land in your head on the instrument, should *precede*, imo, learning "new" tunes by ear.  You should spend time giving your mind the opportunity to make the connections between pitches and the fingers _before saddling it with the additional burden of learning and remembering a new tune_ on top of trying to make the fingers find the notes (the mind doesn't really have in palce).

All the kid-school songs......"Twinkle Twinkle Little Star", "Three Blind Mice", etc. which are ingrained permanently in most peoples' brains.  Then TV/movie themes..."Gilligan's Island", "Maverick", "Rawhide", "Hawaii 5-O", "Goldfinger", "Bonanza", ...... or whatever (depending on your age).

Part of the "game" is to get your fingers used to being in service to your mental ear.* But* you are* also* using it to *connect the music playing program to the vast store of sonic memory files* inside your brain. (The problem with many many musicians is that they are unable to run the two programs at the same time.)  The more you get used to "calling up" musical memory files, the easier and easier it becomes to retrieve them.

Pick a year.....say last year of high school.  Try to remember the songs that were popular.  Getting the first four or five will be the hardest, but once that mental file cabinet is opened, another dozen should shart to tumble out.  It makes no difference if the songs are really corny or something you'd never play in public for your friends..... "This Diamond Ring" (Gary Lewis & The Playboys", "Boots" (Nancy Sinatra), "Tie A Yellow Ribbon" (Tony Orlando), "Close To You" (Carpenters), "Macarena", ....some of those irritating earworms are imbedded deeper than the better stuff.  (Besides, you can punish pickers that irk you, by playing some of these tunes and reinfecting them with stuff that will be stuck in their ear all day!!!)

At a more *advanced level* of ear-playing, is the *"Transposing Game"*. Here, you take a song/tune you already know and play it in a different key.  Several things are happening here: you are making your mental ear "hear" the tune in a different key than the one it was recorded in (on the LP/CD, and/or in your brain). And, you are making the fingers respond to the melody, but in different fingering configurations than the one-key-muscle-memory you have established.  (This is also a *remedial exercise* for players that get locked into muscle memory and finger diarrhea.)

You can also play the tranposing game in conjunction with memory jukebox.

*IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IF YOU NEVER INTEND TO PLAY THESE TUNES PUBLICLY.*    And it is doesn't matter if you can't play them up to the actual tempo.....just that you can play them with less and less stumbling and bogus notes.

When you learn a "tune" you not only learn the entire tune, but you also learn all the shorter phrases and note sequences within the tune.  These short "molecules"  (an arpeggio, or scale fragment) will occur again and again (in different locations and contexts) in countless other tunes.  If your brain recognizes a previously encountered fragment, it doesn't have to *relearn* it from scratch.  Which is why the 50th fiddle tune is so much easier to learn than your 3rd.

BTW: I "play" both these _"games"_ a great deal on flute, which I've only been working on for a few years.  I want my fingers to automatically respond to something I am thinking sonically in my mind, avoiding thoughts about which "notes/pitch names" I should be playing (from mentally imaging a mando fretboard). And I want my fingers to respond correctly if I _mentally_ move the melody to another key and/or meter. (I may practice technical exercises/patterns or solos/tunes out of a book for convenience.  Different slurrings, articulations, etc. and work on muscle memory for velocity. But I want technique to always be in service to the *ear* .) 

Niles Hokkanen

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## John Flynn

The most often given advice on ear training I have heard and the basis for some ear training methods, most notably "Ear Training for Mandolin" by Brad Davis, is singing the tune in nonsense syllables (la-la-la or da-da-da, whatever). First you sing along, then you sing it on your own, repeating that process until you have the tune or lick down pat. Then you apply it to your instrument. A good tip is to warm up by playing a few scales in the key you are going to learn the tune in, perhaps even singing along with the scales. At that point, your brain is ready to learn the tune by ear and it goes pretty quickly after that.

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mandopat

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## Rob Gerety

The best thing I have done is to swear off tab and notation for a good long while. Not that reading is bad.  But if I want to learn to play by ear I have to play by ear - its really that simple. Stop reading stuff and start playing what you hear.

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## Ivan Kelsall

TAB can be useful as an 'added extra' to learning to play tunes by ear. Sometimes it's almost impossible to really 'nail a tune' 100% (if ever !). I taught myself to play Herschel Sizemore's version of 'Grey Eagle',a bit of a knuckle buster to say the least.I got maybe 95% of it correct,but there was one tiny bit i wasn't sure about.Through the good grace of one of our fellow members,i got hold of Herschel's AcuTab book with the tune tabbed out. I looked at the passage that i thought was wrong & realised that i was putting in an 'extra' note,which made the fingering a bit tricky.
  I tend to steer away from TAB,as i've come across players who can only play the TAB'd version of tunes. It's almost as if the TAB has ruined their ability to improvise. Ear playing is a long winded way of learning,but once you've got it,you've got it for good,
                                                                                                                                                                      Ivan

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## almeriastrings

I pretty much much take the same approach as Ivan, above. I've also been playing a long time and back when, there was almost nothing in the way of "other resources" available. No internet, no books, no DVD's, no "Instant Lessons", no tab... nada. No teachers either. You got an LP (not a 78, not quite that old!) and slowed it down and tried to figure what was going on... you also learned to pick out the KEY NOTES of a tune. The really basic stuff. Then you began to "fill in the gaps". That is still a good approach... just take a simple, strong tune like Arkansas Traveller or Whiskey Before Breakfast and play the very basic melody..note by note.... just sit there and do it. Later, add in some 'ornamentation' and try to 'steal' licks you hear other people use. That is a good starting point. It is very easy now with stuff like Slow Downer software available, of course....no-one can show you this. You have to do it by yourself.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Quote from *Almeira* above - _"(not a 78, not quite that old!)"_. I *did actually own* a 78 in my teens,not Bluegrass though.
   I'm currently following my own advice at the moment. I'm putting together the separate parts to Bill Monroe's tune _"Old Ebeneezer Scrooge"_.I got the first part from CD,but wasn't sure that i was playing it right. I found a YouTube clip of a guy named Joe Clark playing it :- http://youtu.be/WPQ83K1xeHc & got a lot of the fingering from that. I also found some TAB for it,but the TAB doesn't sound like the CD  (does it ever !). After getting the basics of the tune sorted out,it was a sit down job for a few hours yesterday while i was watching TV,just playing it over & over & getting it to sound 'right'. It's not the 'easiest way of learning a tune,but it has it's rewards.
   I know a lot of folks on here use a 'slowdowner' of one sort or another,maybe that's something that i should be looking at to use as well. One thing i will say,that the relatively 'simple sounding' tunes of Bill Monroe (compared to many of the 'virtuoso' pickers out there),when you listen carefully enough,they ain't all that simple, & the guy's timing was awesome,
                                                                                                                                    Ivan :Wink:  :Chicken:

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## Ravenwood

I learned to play the saxophone by ear when I was about 6. My grandfather was a professional saxophonist, and his way of teaching me was to sit in chairs back to back so I couldn't see what he was doing. He would play a note, then I would try to emulate what he played. At first, you stumble around until you find the right one. Then it falls into place. 

In the absence of a grandfather to teach you, there are several "follow the leader" computer programs out there that will generate tones either randomly or by playing a tune very slowly.

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## JonZ

I would recommend a two-pronged approach:

1: The stuff people have said above about playing a lot by ear.

2: Practice scales and arpeggios in their various permutations: triads, pentatonic major and minor, major and minor scale, and blues scales. Also, learn the note/finger board relationships.

By adding this second component, you will gain a conceptual framework for what you want to eventually become second nature. Knowing that a song is based on a G blues scale, and how to play that scale, will help you to limit your choices of notes to those with a higher probability of being correct.

And speaking of playing tunes from your last year of high school, I read an article that said the best way to sell a piano is to play songs on it from the year your customer graduated.
I also fall into the pro-slow-downer camp. Playing slower increases your rate of success, which helps maintain your enthusiasm.

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## swampy

[QUOTE=JonZ;923610]I would recommend a two-pronged approach:

1: The stuff people have said above about playing a lot by ear.

2: Practice scales and arpeggios in their various permutations: triads, pentatonic major and minor, major and minor scale, and blues scales. Also, learn the note/finger board relationships.

By adding this second component, you will gain a conceptual framework for what you want to eventually become second nature. Knowing that a song is based on a G blues scale, and how to play that scale, will help you to limit your choices of notes to those with a higher probability of being correct. QUOTE]

I second this with one word of caution. When I was first starting out, I struggled with picking some tunes out by ear, because there were some notes, not many, that were outside of the scale. I adhered too strictly to the rules and the scales.

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## Hayduke

The best suggestion that I received for playing by ear is to learn to sing the tune first and then match the notes you sing to the note you are trying to play.  Harder than it sounds, but it does work.

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## Ivan Kelsall

From *Swampy* - _"..because there were some notes, not many, that were outside of the scale."_. That's the main reason that i've (personally) avoided 'scales' like the plague !. Playing by ear,i play the _'sounds'_ that i hear. The fact that the notes may be from 'wherever / whatever' doesn't bother me at all. *Hayduke* has it right (for me) as well.Singing the melody is one way of remembering it,so that when you sit down to play - the melody is 'in your head'. I do it by 'listening' over & over, for the same reason. 
   Learning scales 'as well as', is a good thing to do to gain theoretical understanding of what you're doing. The Mandolin is the only instrument where i 'began' that way.  It soon dawned on me that while i was learning scales,i was neglecting to learn tunes / songs,so i did what i'd previoulsy done on Banjo & Guitar,learned to play tunes by ear. It soon paid off & in the 5 1/2 years i've been playing,i've taught myself tunes by John Reichsman,Herschel Sizemore,Bill Monroe & many others,purely by ear. I will qualify that by saying that since i retired early 4 years back,i've had plenty of time to practice,far more than most folks,so i may be a bit ahead of where i 'would have been',had i not retired.
   Learning by ear does take time & practice,but in hindsight, i maybe should have learned a bit more theory on top of what i was doing, ie. learn my tunes by ear,then go for the theory side of things - it's not too late to do that i suppose,but the 'tunes / songs' will always come first,
                            Ivan

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## JonZ

Jazz players generally are great site readers, and know ALL of their scales inside and out (super locrian anyone?), and are generally great at playing by ear. Contrary to what some have experienced, learning scales helps me to hear those notes that are outside the scale, and find them with more ease. 

I don't know if learning scales will be the fastest way for you to learn, but I am surprised that some people have found it counter-productive.

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## Brent Hutto

Among accomplished players looking back on their early progress, I've heard a couple say that viewing heavy scale practice as a major chunk of their playing and practice time was a mistake. Both of them would have dialed it back a little and let the scale practice happen in the context of all the other things they woulda-coulda-shoulda been concentrating their focus on at that point of their development.

But these are folks who spent many years doing a couple hours a day of scales and scale-related drills. I believe they were advising me that scales practice is good, overemphasizing or obsessing over scale practice is harmful.

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## catmandu2

I recommend making exercises of the scale studies--which is what a "teacher" would do for you.  In this regard, I've always advocated devising one's own training material and methods; if you do this for yourself, you'll be learning that much more.

For learning to play by ear, simply play along with whatever is on the radio at any given moment.  Same for playing with people--just grab and play..

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## mandocrucian

> Among accomplished players looking back on their early progress, I've heard a couple say that viewing heavy scale practice as a major chunk of their playing and practice time was a mistake.But these are folks who spent many years doing a couple hours a day of scales and scale-related drills. I believe they were advising me that scales practice is good, overemphasizing or obsessing over scale practice is harmful.


The *reason* it might become detrimental is that it could increasingly program _muscle memory_ which is *devoid of any active sonic thinking*. Once the fingers learn the various patterns, the picker sits around watching TV which letting their fingers semi-consciously run through familiar patterns over and over until it become automatic.  It's easy (for me, anyway) to hear the results when these people play...._"Well, they've been practicing their scale/arpeggios/etudes"_ ....so it's fast and smooth, but it's still just a lot of notes/finger diarrhea because the hands are on remote control.  All the solos sound the same (_especially_ when it's limited to a handful of basic pattern variations)....more scale licks, arpeggios etc. 

The remedy is to *bind* the hands to *active mental thought*.  And this is done by simultaneously singing/humming what is being played.  You can't sing it if you don't hear it.  When you hear it and also play it, you program the fingers to play the notes the brain is "hearing".  (Pavlov's slavering dogs and the dinner bell).  Want to layer on the the music theory?.....sing the pitch names, or sol-feg syllables and involve the the participation of the linguistic/logic sections of the brain.

It's not magic. (just sustained effort to rewire your ear and brain)

Niles H

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## Brent Hutto

Niles,

One guy who shared that advice with me described pretty much the same scenario. Guitar player, started out as a classical-guitar player as a child. In his case I think it arose from an idea inculcated at an early age that a certain number of hours executing scale patterns and exercises comprised "dues paying" that was presumed to magically pay off later. I'm just picturing someone's mom yelling from the next room "I don't hear any scales in there, get busy!". 

But there's really not any magic to it, as you point out. Just basic human learning fundamentals, for better or worse depending on how you apply them.

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## SincereCorgi

Y'know, if you can play all the majors and minors and their modes in good time with clean fingering and musicality, then maybe you can dial back the scale practicing. If you _can't_ do that, you're probably going to f*** up when you go to play a Db major scale in the 'real' music. You practice scales and arpeggios just because they come up so often in all music that it's worthwhile to learn them independently. It's not zen meditation, it's pragmatic.

What a lot of people don't seem to get is that you shouldn't practice scales only in their simplest up-down one octave version because that's of limited value and extremely boring. Do them in different patterns, use them when you're doing picking exercises, etc. The idea is to work on multiple things at once and not get bored.

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## Paul Kotapish

Lots of great advice here for ear training.

Just want to reinforce the value of learning to sing the melody before trying to play it on the instrument. If you can sing it, you will be able to play it--eventually. 

I start on a new tune by playing it in the car or around the house and singing along with it until I can carry the tune on my own without the CD/iPod/whatnot.

Then I try playing it mentally--with no instrument in my hand. Once I have the starting reference note nailed down, I imagine playing the whole thing on the mandolin as I sing the tune in my head. 

Once I do pick up the instrument, I work up the tune phrase by phrase rather than trying to bite off the whole thing in one go.

The Amazing Slow Downer is a wonderful tool for sorting out the bits you are having trouble sorting out by ear a full speed, and the looping feature is a great way to reinforce slow, steady practice on difficult passages.

One other tip for boosting your ability to _learn_ by ear: _teach_ someone else a tune you already know. Play it and then sing it with them until they can carry the melody nice and slowly and then teach them phrase-by-phrase.

The process of breaking down a tune into constituent parts and getting another person to learn it is invaluable in terms of understanding what makes for reasonable mental-bite-size phrases to learn.

Good luck.

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## JonZ

> The *reason* it might become detrimental is that it could increasingly program _muscle memory_ which is *devoid of any active sonic thinking*. Once the fingers learn the various patterns, the picker sits around watching TV which letting their fingers semi-consciously run through familiar patterns over and over until it become automatic.  It's easy (for me, anyway) to hear the results when these people play...._"Well, they've been practicing their scale/arpeggios/etudes"_ ....so it's fast and smooth, but it's still just a lot of notes/finger diarrhea because the hands are on remote control.  All the solos sound the same (_especially_ when it's limited to a handful of basic pattern variations)....more scale licks, arpeggios etc. 
> 
> The remedy is to *bind* the hands to *active mental thought*.  And this is done by simultaneously singing/humming what is being played.  You can't sing it if you don't hear it.  When you hear it and also play it, you program the fingers to play the notes the brain is "hearing".  (Pavlov's slavering dogs and the dinner bell).  Want to layer on the the music theory?.....sing the pitch names, or sol-deg syllables and involve the the participation of the linguistic/logic sections of the brain.
> 
> It's not magic. (just sustained effort to rewire your ear and brain)
> 
> Niles H


"Active mental thought" :Confused: 

Sounds very sciency! :Cool: 

I don't think anyone has done a scientific experiment, so I can't say you're wrong. But I think maybe you are observing people who have _only_ learned their scales, and have not practiced much playing by ear. I could see how that would cramp one's style.

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## Brent Hutto

I can't cite the published studies but there is definitely a scientific literature demonstrating that once you learn to do a physical task a certain way, it becomes far harder to learn to do it some other way. Basically you have to overcome the little memory paths that your learning has built in your brain before you can build new ones. 

So in any activity that requires coordination directed by conscious intent, mindlessly grooving a sloppy or incorrect movement will cost you much effort and consternation when you decided you want to start learning a not-sloppy, correct version of that movement. You don't have to be a scientist to appreciate the advice. Don't spend thousands of hours practicing how to play sloppy and expect it to magically be replaced by playing well just because you decide to get serious one day down the road.

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## Alex Orr

This is an interesting topic because I'm still frustrated by my inability to play consistently strong lead breaks by ear in jams.  I know scales (major, minor, and pentatonics).  I know 'em in various positions on the fretboard.  I can play them very clean and quick.  I've finished about two-thirds of that big ol' Mel Bay book on bluegrass mandolin improv.  I know arpeggios (though I have little idea how to make them work for me in a melody-based improvised break).  And, I've learned a lot of songs and written out LOTS of breaks for those tunes.  On top of that, I can sing and whistle some lovely breaks for any ol' tune at the drop of a hat that I'd love to be able to play on the mandolin if I only knew how.  

I guess it's really the "on-the-fly" aspect that drives me batty.  Like I said, for a basic tune, I can figure out the melody line in a few minutes and then play it fairly clean and at a decent clip.  The problem I have is translating that to a setting where there may be six or seven instruments, a 160 BPM, and I need to be able to play a good break to a song I don't know, at tempo, with maybe only a verse and chorus before I'm up for my break.  After a little over three years of playing, there's basically a 50/50 shot I'll hit something passable in that situation or just crash and burn.  The single most depressing thing to me about my playing is that I can't improvise more successfully at that level and other than continue to do what I've been doing, I don't know what else to do to speed up my progress.

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## Brent Hutto

Alex,

If you ask me, it's not a mystery that you can't pull it off consistently. It's a miracle that anyone can! 

I just can't imagine that people are doing any thinking at all in that kind of setting, surely they've managed to program in a bunch of big chunks that they can just blurt out as one big unit. Or maybe some people really can think, musically, at that kind of speed.

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## catmandu2

> The remedy is to *bind* the hands to *active mental thought*.  And this is done by simultaneously singing/humming what is being played.


This is why I find such affinity with my horns.  Whether it be attributable to "active" thought, or other processes...at least, with greater intention.

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## catmandu2

To Alex:

Not sure if this is useful or not, but there are many, many approaches to improv--that you might consider and maybe try a few.

Analyzing solos is one way to get going.  Melody and variations is another.  Technical games...combinations, substitutions.

Metaphor, light and shade, lyricism...emotion and impetus.  Listening.

Slow down, play a blues.  Limit yourself to just a few notes, a short scale, a single idea.  Try to say as much as you can with *a single note*.  Be as _musical_ as you can with as little as possible.

You can train yourself in rendering the elements of speaking.  But you can't force inspiration.

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## Phil Goodson

Brent,
You are exactly right.  I've taken lessons from several great players; I've asked MANY good players that I know and/or jam with how they do these impromptu breaks so well every time.

I ALWAYS get some variation of the same answer:  "I'm not thinking when I play.  I just play what I'm hearing in my head."

The reason for their answer is that LONG AGO they have absorbed and digested large chunks of note patterns that they can spit out of their fingers as if pushing a button.  When they 'hear' a sound in their minds, the button is pushed and out comes the musical phrase.

It always sounds like they're hiding a secret and won't tell the newbie what he wants to hear, but in reality, most of them honestly don't remember how they initially digested those phrases and how they go from brain to hand.

I long for that day!

----------


## JonZ

> I can't cite the published studies but there is definitely a scientific literature demonstrating that once you learn to do a physical task a certain way, it becomes far harder to learn to do it some other way. Basically you have to overcome the little memory paths that your learning has built in your brain before you can build new ones. 
> 
> So in any activity that requires coordination directed by conscious intent, mindlessly grooving a sloppy or incorrect movement will cost you much effort and consternation when you decided you want to start learning a not-sloppy, correct version of that movement. You don't have to be a scientist to appreciate the advice. Don't spend thousands of hours practicing how to play sloppy and expect it to magically be replaced by playing well just because you decide to get serious one day down the road.


I am not sure what you are suggesting. Mastering scales does not imply sloppy playing, and figuring out songs by ear is going to require a lot of mistakes at first. Are you saying don't do either?

----------


## JonZ

> To Alex:
> 
> Not sure if this is useful or not, but there are many, many approaches to improv--that you might consider and maybe try a few.
> 
> Analyzing solos is one way to get going.  Melody and variations is another.  Technical games...combinations, substitutions.
> 
> Metaphor, light and shade, lyricism...emotion and impetus.  Listening.
> 
> Slow down, play a blues.  Limit yourself to just a few notes, a short scale, a single idea.  Try to say as much as you can with *a single note*.  Be as _musical_ as you can with as little as possible.
> ...


Great suggestions.

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## catmandu2

> the same answer:  "I'm not thinking when I play.  I just play what I'm hearing in my head."


Seems like we have to sort out some of the meaning here.

If it is "in one's head," then it is presumed to be thought--mentation or cogntiion--of some kind.

This is where it gets muddled: how much is conscious intention, and how much is "feeling?"  It's likely a case--as has been described--of assimilating the technical elements of playing and developing the capacity to render these elements in _musical_ style without much deliberation, contemplation, or other conscious analysis.  For the creative musican, assimilating the skills of technical proficiency to the point that they are "automatic" (meaning, probably--less on the forebrain, but still very much a cognitive process) is a basic competency.

For me and horns, it's as if someone stuck an amplifier in my vocal cords--it just "comes out."

But what really is happening is I'm going for a sound in my head--giving form to something I'm feeling or experiencing or imagining, but translated into sonic media.  With an instrument that you feel "one" with, you can feel like you can bypass that circuit of greater conscious effort--and just let it happen.  Of course, the cognitive processes are occuring, but perhaps are less perceptible--perhaps the ease with which it happens makes one less aware of the mental apparatus involved.

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## Brent Hutto

JonZ,

I was amplifying Niles' comments about inattentive "practice" by rote repetition. If you pay full attention to something you're doing badly and self-correct your performance in relation to some valid standard (i.e. if you know good tone when you hear it) then eventually you will improve. Or maybe you won't but in any case you're doing all that you can.

Niles was (if I understood correctly) disparaging the idea that once you know a scale pattern, sheer number of repetitions will produce the skill you're seeking. So some people suggest "Even if you're watching something on TV, just keep fingering one of your scales over and over and you'll unconsciously commit it to muscle memory". Or something like that. In fact, it doesn't work that way at all. You will make that movement routine and automatic but if you're not attentive to doing it with good tone, clean fretting and steady rhythm you'll make bad technique routine.

You have to have a feedback process going on for good learning to take place. And it has to be with a reference in mind of excellent sound, not just expecting your fingers to learn it while you're paying attention to something else.

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## Rob Gerety

> The best suggestion that I received for playing by ear is to learn to sing the tune first and then match the notes you sing to the note you are trying to play.  Harder than it sounds, but it does work.


I agree with this.  If I can sing it - accurately - I can generally play it.

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## catmandu2

I was reading a book recently called "The Original Art of Music" (Ling) in which the author reports on findings from implementing musical instruction to youths in S. America (don't recall what country just now).  She reports that, uninhibited, youths produce ear music (spontaneous melody) as readily as they draw pictures.

This would seem to indicate there is some degree of innate musical sense, or at least a facility with music acquired very early in infant/adolescent development.  Personally, my own mother sang all the time.

As musicians who've spent time studying, hopefully we will have developed and _enhanced_ this sense (although, the author also reports how our culture tends to produce the reverse effect) -- with the optimal effect of a combination of child-like spontaneity with rigorous technical facility.

The mind at play--may not seem like "thinking," but we'll have to call it something..  Maybe, thinking with heart?

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## mandocrucian

> "I'm not thinking when I play. I just play what I'm hearing in my head."


The point is that they are hearing something in (their) head. It is *active SONIC thought* the term I used at first in my previous post. For unambiguous clarity, I should have included "sonic" again in the next paragraph. (see below)




> Niles: A) devoid of any *active sonic thinking*.  
> B)  The remedy is to bind the hands to *active mental (sonic) thought*.


If you are "hearing" (imagining) the musical tones, that is active sonic thought.  If you are only hearing notes a split second after they have come out of the instrument, that is passive monitoring of the hands.  

Let me be clear, "active mental sonic thinking" is about _hearing it in your head_, without a lot of verbal chattering.  It's not talking to yourself about what scale you are going to play next, or what chord you are on, or what fingers you are going to use.  That stuff is something you do during practice when you work out mechanical details. It's part of the pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps training towards just hearing stuff and not having to divert a lot of attention to  "how am I going to do this?" 

I'm sure many of you can _"pick"_ some tune, that you've done for years, on your instrument while carrying on a conversation with somebody. It like driving on autopilot and you end up turning off towards the post office instead of going straight because you drive to the PO so often. So you pick the tune while yakking, and your fingers (muscle memory) are on autopilot ---no real conscious (musical) thought in your head or your ear.  It's finger diarrhea, even though the pitches are right....like a mechanical music box. But REAL PLAYING originates in the mind, and the hands (or the voice) are merely the means of it translating into something audible.

Niles H

----------


## JonZ

Okay Brent, I understand. I have never been one to ruin good mandolin time by watching TV, or visa versa. I'm not a multi-tasker. However, I know there are some great players who do it. I am guessing that there are probably some people who can literally divide their attention.

Alex--One thing I noticed when I taught English over in Japan was that some of the students who scored lowest on tests were among the best communicators. I think it had to do with the ability to blunder forth without inhibition. Some of the most knowledgeable students couldn't finish a sentence because they were too worried about conjugating the verb correctly.

I suppose that is what some people are suggesting when they say that learning scales can get in the way. Still, I'm not sure I agree with them. There are probably some who over think them, and others who don't.

Some of it is personality--a willingness to look foolish. Getting out and playing with people can help lower one's inhibitions. So can getting drunk, come to think of it. (That's not a recommendation!) :Coffee: 

I also think that most of us who practice diligently think we aren't nearly as good as we _should_ be. :Laughing:

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## JeffD

> I tend to steer away from TAB,as i've come across players who can only play the TAB'd version of tunes. It's almost as if the TAB has ruined their ability to improvise. Ear playing is a long winded way of learning,but once you've got it,you've got it for good,


I don't believe that. What has ruined their ability to improvise is not learning or trying to improvise. Learning to read tab or notes, learning to pick it out by ear, learning to improvise, learning to compose, learning to sing along, learning to back up someone elses lead, learning to befriend the alpha fiddler to find out when and where the next jam is, learning how to chat with an accordion player, these are all necessary skills, and being good at one does not ruin your ability to learn the other. Neither does competency in one obviate the need to learn the other. There isn't a strict hierarchy of skills. 

Except learning to tune up. Please learn that first.

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## JonZ

Learning to read, spell (sort of), write and understand the rules of grammar and punctuation were not necessary for me to learn to speak. However, these skills and knowledge have improved my spoken language. If I didn't read, I wouldn't know from "obviate".

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## SincereCorgi

> I don't believe that. What has ruined their ability to improvise is not learning or trying to improvise. Learning to read tab or notes, learning to pick it out by ear, learning to improvise, learning to compose, learning to sing along, learning to back up someone elses lead, learning to befriend the alpha fiddler to find out when and where the next jam is, learning how to chat with an accordion player, these are all necessary skills, and being good at one does not ruin your ability to learn the other. Neither does competency in one obviate the need to learn the other. There isn't a strict hierarchy of skills. 
> 
> Except learning to tune up. Please learn that first.


Hear, hear.

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## Brent Hutto

> Hear, hear.


Wasn't that Niles' advice in a nutshell? :Smile:

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## AlanN

I have a good ear and have been mandolining for a long time. But, sometimes, I need the music in front of me. Like now, working on Hot House. I have the melody in my head, can hum it, but dang if I can play it on the fly. Lots of chromaticisms in that sucker. Donna Lee, also.

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## JonZ

I think it is pretty hard to make an argument that any type of musical practice is going to harm your playing, if you practice correctly. The question really comes down to opportunity cost. In a limited amount of practice time, what do you practice and what do you leave out?

I think that lately this has been my most frequent concern.

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## tree

> I think it is pretty hard to make an argument that any type of musical practice is going to harm your playing, if you practice correctly. The question really comes down to opportunity cost. In a limited amount of practice time, what do you practice and what do you leave out?
> 
> I think that lately this has been my most frequent concern.


I'd opine (based on my observation of many of your posts) that you could be obsessed with optimizing your practice time.  Possibly to the point of over-analyzing it.  :Coffee:

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## Rob Gerety

> I don't believe that. What has ruined their ability to improvise is not learning or trying to improvise. Learning to read tab or notes, learning to pick it out by ear, learning to improvise, learning to compose, learning to sing along, learning to back up someone elses lead, learning to befriend the alpha fiddler to find out when and where the next jam is, learning how to chat with an accordion player, these are all necessary skills, and being good at one does not ruin your ability to learn the other. Neither does competency in one obviate the need to learn the other. There isn't a strict hierarchy of skills. 
> 
> Except learning to tune up. Please learn that first.


True enough.  But - many people with limited time become reliant on tab because for a new player it seems to give quick results.  This can become almost like an addiction.  After a while they find that they are not doing the things that you need to do to play by ear.  When this happens it stunts their development and dramatically extends the length of time it take them to become proficient players.  I know - it happened to me. Again I say - the best thing I did was to swear off tab. The second best thing I did was to always learn the chords and the melody both - and then extend into various versions - and then gradually I feel myself starting to improvise on the fly - every so slightly.  Still so much to learn and so little time. 

I know many decent players who know a lot of tunes they learned by tab but who cannot for the life of them strum chords behind someone else who is playing a tune they do not know from tab.  This is the problem when you get addicted to tab. Again, I know because it happened to me.

I will use tab or notation to figure out a tough spot - but for the time being I always learn new tunes by ear first.

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## farmerjones

Reading over this thread, it's fitting to see it bend toward a mental process. "Playing by ear" for me, seems amiss. It's more playing by memory. Hearing is simply an aural feedback sensor, to check that what i wish to play is correct, or not. Or worse, close.

A large obisticle early on, was Rock & Roll was never recorded much without tweeking the pitch. Consequently, i couldn't play along with many records. If you can't win every now and again, you get frustrated. But what came from it is a "relative" sense of pitch.
Instead of a perfect sense of pitch. Doe-Rey-Mi is Doe-Rey-Mi wherever it exists. If i try to learn a new tune. chances are it will come out in D. Eventually i find out the common key, and then mentally transpose.

 To myself and the people i frequently play with, music is a spoken language. Simple as that. When we say, i play this, or that instrument, because i don't have to think about it, it means it's become an extension of one's being. It's just talking (singing) with a box, instead of a voice. Seems to happen faster in a nuturing/supportive family environment, but however long it takes to speak, is how long it takes. But people get the wrong idea. I'm simple spoken folk. Basic vocabulary. I certainly don't think in caprices, or concertos. I think in either 4x4 tunes or 12 bar Blues. For example: There's only so much one can "say" in a waltz in G. A waltz is a formula. I guess a bit of pattern recognition helps too. These folk tunes/songs are a collection of patterns within a pattern. Most of the time in a circular/repeating structure. So if one were studious, i suppose one would isolate the patterns within the whole. I also realise folks learn differently. So if recognizing a pattern within a pattern helps, good. It certainly helped me.

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## JonZ

> I'd opine (based on my observation of many of your posts) that you could be obsessed with optimizing your practice time.  Possibly to the point of over-analyzing it.


It is definitely something I am very interested in, but "obsession" has some negative implications that I do not think apply.

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## Brent Hutto

> I know many decent players who know a lot of tunes they learned by tab but who cannot for the life of them strum chords behind someone else who is playing a tune they do not know from tab.  This is the problem when you get addicted to tab. Again, I know because it happened to me.


I'm sure other people have different experiences but for myself your interpretation of causality does not pertain. Being able to play a melody that I've heard seems an almost totally different skill than being able to "hear" what chords go behind a melody I'm hearing. 

When I started taking weekly mandolin lessons I mentioned in the first session that "ear training" was a big priority for me at the time. In the first few weeks my teacher would teach me tunes by playing them a phrase at a time and letting me repeat them until I got it right. I wasn't great at it but pretty good from the start.

We quickly determined that I can hear, hum and pick out a note at a time on the mandolin most any straightforward melody from a fiddle tune or folk song. What I can't do at all is recognize and repeat a chord progression. Or even recognize and label it unless it's a I-IV-V7-I with a bog simple voicing or something like that. So now we spend a few minutes every other lesson or so on hear it/identify it for somewhat unusual progressions and voicings. And very recently we've moved on to helping me figure out chords to put under tunes that I already know.

So my point being, for some of us getting pretty good at hearing melodies and picking them out does not get us started on hearing harmony. So I learn my tunes from "the dots" and spend my play-by-ear practice time picking out chords (or at least bass notes, for a starter) while listening to recorded tunes. That seems to be gaining me some slow progress, along with the little bit of lesson time with my teacher I mentioned above.

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## AlanN

> being able to "hear" what chords go behind a melody I'm hearing.


And then there's the player resistance thing. Just last week, was at a jam where we picked Red Wing. The chord progression is:

I for 2 bars
IV for 1 bar
I for 1 bar, then the danger zone:

It's *V for 1 bar* (not IV, as many [many] play)

I tried to edjukate my fellow pickers, to little or no avail. Comments were "What?", "Really?", "I've always played it this way." or they simply disregarded the learning. Even after isolating the passage and playing the melody over both the IV (wrong) and the V (right). To my ears, there is only one fit right there.

I gave up.

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## Alex Orr

> Alex,
> 
> If you ask me, it's not a mystery that you can't pull it off consistently. It's a miracle that anyone can! 
> 
> I just can't imagine that people are doing any thinking at all in that kind of setting, surely they've managed to program in a bunch of big chunks that they can just blurt out as one big unit. Or maybe some people really can think, musically, at that kind of speed.


I think it's worth mentioning, both in response to your post and just in general, that no one has really brought up the experience factor in all this.  I've been playing as a hobbyist for about three and a half years I suppose.  At the primary jam I attend, most of the folks there are a good twenty years older than me and many, by their own admission, have been playing bluegrass on their instruments of choice for several decades.  I sort've take that as consolation.  One of the reasons I am not able to do the same things that someone with a decade or two of playing experience can do is because I simply haven't been playing for a decade or two.  

Mandocrucian, I hear what you're saying about playing what you hear.  That's where I'd love to get to.  At that point, playing the instrument would be as easy as talking, or whistling.

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## catmandu2

Alex is getting us to where I think it's helpful to first look at what we want from the experience of playing music.

Here's a thread on the sax site, dealing with pedagogy, which emphasizes some of these points. http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthr...zz-sax-players

These days, I don't have time for much rote technical practice--I want to play the sounds, the music.  So, my _practice_ consists in putting on a record, and playing along--like I was there cutting the session.  Yesterday, it was Yusef Lateef's _Psychicemotus_ and damn was it fun.  Step one: find the fundamentals, then develop.  Make exercises, devise melodies and harmonies, become part of the band.  Make it sound _good_.  I would rather pratice all of my technical stuff in a musical context--because I'm old and am bored with rote practice.

Step two: repeat, with a different record.  I find this is the quickest way for me to be prepared when I go to play with folks--for I'm learning not only the notes, but the vernaculars as well.  I feel comfortable sitting in with virtually any style of ensemble--if my instrument isn't the right one, I select another more appropriate.  The first time I started doing this with saxes last year--after not having played in some 30 years--I received the comment: "you don't know ####, but you make it sound good."  I could barely move on the instrument--and my mouthpiece (and embouchure) were absolutely terrible.  But working with the very limited palette I had--I made _music_.

There's a primitive, innate connection that we have with musical sound--that we should strive to always be tapped into...regardless of whom we're playing with, the instrument or the idiom.  This is my approach, at any rate.  I find a sound that I like, and develop it.  It  is a process of experimentation.

I grew up reading notes, but I was fortunate to have a mentor when I was 13 years old who impressed me by easily "lifting" all the stuff I liked from the records.  I began doing this myself--come to thnk of it, I started doing this when I was 11 yo with _Jesus Christ Superstar_.  I went through all my Led Zepplin records; sifting through the haze of 70's rock recording studio ambience trained me to listen carefully and pull out the fundamentals amid whatever extraneous noise was happening.  I attribute this as the single-most important element in my development as a musician.  Ear training.  

In addition to having voracious musical curiosity, which impels to explore and experiment, I've come to identify more with music--the invisible sound waves and vibrations; socio-cultural traditions; aesthetic dimensions--much more than any particular instrument.  Some instruments lend themselves more to a style or type of sound -- a saz, or diatonic accordian, for example -- but they are all tools with which to render the form.  The _real instrument_ -- is the ears -- which can take _anything_, and make music with it..

Getting back to point: running scales and doing technical exercises is necessary; the way that you do it can vary greatly, especially depending on what you want from the music--today and tomorrow.  I spent half of my life alone in practice rooms; I benefit from that huge investment, but this is not how I teach others.  What I teach to others is to use your ears, always.  In order to teach oneself--which is the essence of all learning, as well as what playing by ear is--you must learn to be acutely analytical.  This should become "second-nature"--and is really the essence of musicianship.

Jonz, I would say for rapid development--experiment widely, with constant analysis.  Progress made is proportional to investment.  Keep your ears open all day--and analyze and learn all day.  When I was in college and studying flamenco guitar, I would practice my resqueados endlessly while driving.  Make every moment a "musical learning" moment.  While driving, analyze a tune--break it down, understand all of the elements--perhaps harmonize it (with your voice)...all without the aid of an instrument.  Later, when you do have an instrument, you will be three times ahead.

But there's a danger of becoming more nterested in music than mandolin!

----------


## catmandu2

I got kinda lost in my own process there.  Maybe this will be more helpful:

What I really wanted to say, is that any part of music or music-making _can_ be made into complex and esoteric matter.  But it can also be made *simple*.

This is what I was thinking of above--and with my earlier reference to Ling's book: that we can _let it happen_, and of course this is part of the process of assimilation and regurgitation.

There's a relationship we can hold with the music that enables us to produce, musically--readily and easliy.  Maybe this is some of what Phil was speaking of in his reference to those who play and improvise freely.  If you truly assimilate music, it is you and you will express it.

In an article/interview with Mathias Ruegg (_Avant_, winter 1998), the leader of the Vienna Art Orchestra -- whose craft is rearranging works of classic composers of Western art idioms: Satie, Mingus, Ellington -- says: 

"At the end it is very simple.  A music paper is a music paper (_meaning, notation_) and each looks at the end very similar...a song of Schubert and _Autumn Leaves_, the difference on the paper is not that big.  It's just a song."

What we do with a song--whether _Twinkle, Twinkle_..., Beethoven, or the bird in the garden--is a simple thing that humans do, perhaps innately and without training.  Of course, we must learn the rudiments to speak, but after that...

There's a certain taoist approach we can see: the same stuff that is "as serious as your life," or of what Charlie Haden says, "play every note as though your life depended on it".. is also a matter of child's play.

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## Bruce Evans

> And then there's the player resistance thing. Just last week, was at a jam where we picked Red Wing. The chord progression is:
> 
> I for 2 bars
> IV for 1 bar
> I for 1 bar, then the danger zone:
> 
> It's *V for 1 bar* (not IV, as many [many] play)
> 
> I tried to edjukate my fellow pickers, to little or no avail. Comments were "What?", "Really?", "I've always played it this way." or they simply disregarded the learning. Even after isolating the passage and playing the melody over both the IV (wrong) and the V (right). To my ears, there is only one fit right there.
> ...


First of all, I agree with you that V sounds best there. It's what I play also.

But, you must - *must* -  get past the notion that there is only one way to play something and that your way is right. I am working with one of my students right now (on ukulele) to find alternate ways to harmonize melodies. Many times I have played with a new bunch of people and heard them play something in a different way than I am used to and had to admit that it sounded better. 

And I hope that when you "gave up" your fellow players merely thought you were a bit eccentric and not a complete

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## AlanN

Uh...it's how the tune was written, I fear. You must...*must*...understand this, right? As far as I know, you and I have never picked together. So, you don't know me musically. I'm well aware of harmonization and alternate melodies.

Have fun with one of your students. Sheesh.

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## JeffD

> I agree with this.  If I can sing it - accurately - I can generally play it.


Bingo. Thats where you want to get to, IMO.

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## JeffD

> This is an interesting topic because I'm still frustrated by my inability to play consistently strong lead breaks by ear in jams.  ....  
> 
> I guess it's really the "on-the-fly" aspect that drives me batty.  Like I said, for a basic tune, I can figure out the melody line in a few minutes and then play it fairly clean and at a decent clip.  The problem I have is translating that to a setting where there may be six or seven instruments, a 160 BPM, and I need to be able to play a good break to a song I don't know, at tempo, with maybe only a verse and chorus before I'm up for my break.  After a little over three years of playing, there's basically a 50/50 shot I'll hit something passable in that situation or just crash and burn.  .


Well if you can figure out the melody line, you are almost there IMO. When I do improvise, its very close to the melody, and even in my "wilder" moments it is not far from the melody. What I do sometimes is, since I know the melody, I know where I want to get to, so I "on the fly" only have to come up with a somewhat interesting way to get there in time with the music. A way to think of it anway.

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## Brent Hutto

I was working on an old fiddle tunes in a recent lesson and had come up with some chords "by ear" that I thought would work. As we went through the lesson it was clear a much simpler progression is traditional (most I and IV chords) but my oddball ones sounded good, too. Just not like it's supposed to be. At least I was hearing something, more than I can say usually.

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## Scotti Adams

> Uh...it's how the tune was written, I fear. You must...*must*...understand this, right? As far as I know, you and I have never picked together. So, you don't know me musically. I'm well aware of harmonization and alternate melodies.
> 
> Have fun with one of your students. Sheesh.


Now play nice there Tiger    :0)

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## AlanN

And what chord do you play, Tiger?

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## CES

OP, I haven't used the book you're asking about, but remember learning from a tenor sax jazz improv book back in 8th grade.  The book gave you the basic structure of the song, the notes available within a given scale that could or shouldn't be played within the basic structure, threw out a couple of examples, and then basically had a CD with a background band you played along with, including breaks.  I've long since given it away, and can't remember the name.  I struggled with it at the time, because I have trouble thinking "musically."  New, inventive melodies don't always just jump out at me or "fall out of the sky" for me.  I think what I was hoping it would be when I ordered it was a bunch of transcriptions for me to learn for jazz standards, but I can't remember what I was thinking then at this point.  If the Mel Bay book you describes works as my sax book did, I would think it would offer practical guidance and at least a basic understanding of material to draw from when playing "by ear." ie, the theory to allow you to figure out what you're hearing and then play it.

I've lately been using a combination of the "play with the radio" method along with a couple of theory books...if I can get a couple of the chords by ear, then I can usually figure the rest out with the assistance of the books.  I'm also much better at hearing and then playing simple melodies/solos than I used to be, but I'm no where near "go to the jam and rip off break after break" level yet, and may never get there.

It can be quite frustrating at times, to not be able to translate what I hear into playing, but I love music enough to keep slogging away at it.  Plus, it's better than watching TV  :Smile: 

AlanN, I understand where you're coming from.  I play with a guy who tends to play with little rhythmic variation, regardless of the tune.  He would also be happy if everything was in G.  He sings much better than I do and is a lot of fun, but I occasionally find myself saying, "but it's supposed to go like this..." I usually end up just playing along with him to keep things going.  There's a difference in regional variation or "making a song your own" and just playing a song incorrectly...

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## AlanN

Just to be clear: I am all for being fluid with musical expression. It is, after all, just music and there is nothing more fun and rewarding than creating your own. However, a tune is a tune. Blackberry Blossom, for instance: it's I-V-IV-I-IV-I-II-V. To play I-IV-V, etc...is 'wrong'. Now, if you get everybody on board and say "Ok folks, for this rendition, we will go to the IV after the I...". so be it. But, the tune is BB. It goes a certain way.

And with Red Wing, if you have some do the IV whilst others do the V, well...I should've had a V8!

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## farmerjones

> Just to be clear: I am all for being fluid with musical expression. It is, after all, just music and there is nothing more fun and rewarding than creating your own. However, a tune is a tune. Blackberry Blossom, for instance: it's I-V-IV-I-IV-I-II-V. To play I-IV-V, etc...is 'wrong'. Now, if you get everybody on board and say "Ok folks, for this rendition, we will go to the IV after the I...". so be it. But, the tune is BB. It goes a certain way.
> 
> And with Red Wing, if you have some do the IV whilst others do the V, well...I should've had a V8!


I gotta buddy that contends i miss a chord in Footprints in the Snow. I honestly don't hear it. There's many a tune i know that he doesn't, and vise-versa. Out of mutual respect we don't play Footprints anymore, and that's not the only tune. And it goes both ways, interestingly enough. So . . . .Do you decide on diplomacy and compromise and put the playing first, or do you stand on principle? It's is just music. Nothing's more human than music.

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## AlanN

Agreed. Jam sessions are loose. To get bogged down with details and pick nits seems to get in the way of having a good time. Definitely a compromise, depending on the crowd of pickers. Now, there are some tunes which are open to interpretation, chord float. Like Dixie Hoedown, B part. Some do I, V, IV, I. Others do I, iii, ii, I. Kissimmee Kid is another. Need to have large (and open) ears, all the way around. 

Curious: what chord does your buddy think you are missing in FITS?

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## farmerjones

> Curious: what chord does your buddy think you are missing in FITS?


http://youtu.be/iJF-2LsV3Pw
hey, you tell me, i dunno?
been married 40yrs. 
i'm used to being wrong.

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## AlanN

hmmmm...sounds like you are hitting the I, IV, V in D, all the way in Part A; Part B sounds right, too. Maybe he is thinking you should throw in a C before the G (IV)? Tell him to take a hike (in the snow, of course)   :Mandosmiley:

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## Toycona

> There's a primitive, innate connection that we have with musical sound--that we should strive to always be tapped into...regardless of whom we're playing with, the instrument or the idiom. This is my approach, at any rate. I find a sound that I like, and develop it. It is a process of experimentation.


Among other things, I noodle while watching TV and try to play along with the incidental music. That gets me thinking about what note might be 'around the bend'  or thinking about the relationship between notes and chords. When I play with a jam, unless I'm really out of my league, I'll take a shot at the break no matter what the song...no matter how badly it goes for me. Matching pitch comes more easily for me vocally, not so much with the mando, so playing by ear is a very important skill for me to work on pretty much every time I play.

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## catmandu2

"Love Calls Us to the Things of This World"

I truly enjoy your sig

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## bobby bill

> hey, you tell me, i dunno?
> been married 40yrs. 
> i'm used to being wrong.


Thought you were writing in haiku, at first.  Didn't quite add up.  Still made me laugh.

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## Ivan Kelsall

*Alex* - Re. your 'experience' point,in my first post on this thread on page 1,i did mention that i began playing Banjo_ 48 years_ back & taught myself by ear. I did the same on Guitar & now on Mandolin. In ear playing,experience is a large factor in 'doing it'.The more you do it,the more you *can* do it,it builds on itself as do all the other skills we posses. I will qualify the ear playing side of things _for me_, by saying that some tunes are hard(er) to get my ears around.That's why i think that the 'slow downer' PC software that's available is a real bonus to us ear players. I've just taught myself Bill Monroe's tune "Old Ebeneezer Scrooge". I can play it pretty good all the way through - but - i'm not 100 % sure of the very first phrase of the tune. I can play it a couple of ways that sound ok (compared to the original),but which way is correct ?!. I found some TAB for the tune,but the opening phrase just doesn't sound like the recording.I've not used the freeware 'slowdowner' that one of our fellow members posted a link to,but i intend to do so & learn it with a 'slower' ear, then i'll be able to play it as well as Bill Monroe did (in my wildest dreams !!),
    Ivan :Wink:  :Mandosmiley:

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## granite

> I've been taking mandolin lessons for around 9 months now and I was thinking about trying to learn to play by ear. I was looking at Mel Bay's You can teach Yourself: Mandolin by ear,but having played for some time I don't know if that will work.Has anyone used that book or any other book on the same subject and if so what did you think? I'd like to hear your advice and ideas on this.


PAMandoMan,
To get back to your original post.  This is something I have been trying to learn as well.  I have been playing only slightly longer then you.  I had no other musical background whatsoever before picking up the mandolin and found that "hearing" the music was the hardest part.  Jay Buckey's "Music Theory for Mandolin" has been very helpful (http://www.jaybuckey.com/mandolin/ma...sic_theory.htm).  I don't really think he intended it for this purpose but that is how I use the series.  First, he has a bit of call and answer stuff which has helped me to hear intervals.  Second, he has selected relatively simple, unadorned arrangements for the text that I find perfect to learn by ear for someone of my limited skill level.  I can do this in a relatively short amount of time without a slowdowner which keeps my frustration level down.  And lastly, the songs all have background tracks at different tempos, vocals etc which is great for a closet picker like me.  Hope this helps.

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## JeffD

> One thing I noticed when I taught English over in Japan was that some of the students who scored lowest on tests were among the best communicators. I think it had to do with the ability to blunder forth without inhibition. Some of the most knowledgeable students couldn't finish a sentence because they were too worried about conjugating the verb correctly.
> 
> ...
> 
> Some of it is personality--a willingness to look foolish. Getting out and playing with people can help lower one's inhibitions.


Now you are singing my song. I figure I am going to look foolish anyway. I might as well not compound it by trying to look cool.

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mandopat

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## catmandu2

-_One thing I noticed when I taught English over in Japan was that some of the students who scored lowest on tests were among the best communicators. I think it had to do with the ability to blunder forth without inhibition. Some of the most knowledgeable students couldn't finish a sentence because they were too worried about conjugating the verb correctly._-

I know from experience that plunging -- child-like, without inhibition -- is a good way to acquire new skills, like playing music.  That's kind of my specialty, learning new instruments.  I strike while the iron is hot, but unfortunately my inspiration eventually wanes on a given instrument...it's the classic bipolar thing Leo Kottke speaks about..   :Wink:   I usually adhere more to a music than an instrument.  Some of this is imposed however, like today I have to play fiddle and accordian for a holiday party gig.  I've not been into fiddling since about new years.

Someone said that there is no "teaching"-- except that of teaching oneself.  This emphasizes the experiential/explorational process of discovery in learning, which is an approach particularly effective with music.  Adults often lose their inspiration to explore...what with all the associative risks..

As someone who is mostly compelled by jazz and other forms of spontaneous creative musical expression, I embrace a sails to the wind approach...but it certainly has its negative aspects too..

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## JeffD

> -[That's kind of my specialty, learning new instruments. )


Mine is looking foolish.

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## catmandu2

Yeah, there's a certain acceptance of the risk of "foolishness" we embrace with experimentation.  Probably most of us have crashed and burned plenty.

Like the person in the other thread -- who was asked to give a morning concert, etc..

Yeah, part of aging is ironic in that we lose some of those inhibitions -- not caring what people "think." etc.  So, adulthood can also be advantageous to learning new tricks...

But not unicycle riding.  Actually, when I gave up on the idea of entertaining this way (uni, clowning, etc.) is when I started getting much more serious about little instruments...

See?  Old age is good!

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## mandroid

just seemed less annoying to other people than  :Whistling:  for accompaniment ..

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mandopat

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## Aravind Bhargav

Really very interesting and informative reading. In our style of music we mostly depend only on learning by ear and vigorous practise....though we have notation for all the music we play.



> The reason it might become detrimental is that it could increasingly program muscle memory which is devoid of any active sonic thinking. Once the fingers learn the various patterns, the picker sits around watching TV which letting their fingers semi-consciously run through familiar patterns over and over until it become automatic.........


It does become automatic if we are not careful and probably that is why there is a lot of emphasis on spontaneous and creative music within the boundaries of said grammer in our Carnatic style .....

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## mandopat

What a great discussion and starter thread....however we do it--we get the sounds in our head out through our machine.I have read today about our pinkies physical tendon connection to the ring finger..I  was curious why ,when blindly blurting a few frills to a tune,I tended to err on the minor side?my pinky was in auto mode.or should I clear my ears?)

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## Pasha Alden

Hi there 
I did not use that book.  Since the age of three I could always play by ear.  I know that sounds crazy, but I kid you not.  A music professor and mentor of mine siad something fascinating the other day.  He mentioned that learning by ear was possible.  However, as was the case with language, or learning of a language, the younger one began learning to hear notes, as learnng a language, the better and easier it was.  

Best of luck with the journey of developing the ability to play by ear.

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## wsugai

Learning to play by ear? It always seemed to me that playing by ear comes naturally -- it's reading notation that you have to learn how to do.

In any event, I believe that motivation is at the crux of becoming proficient at anything, not methodology. If there is no driving force behind the activity, it doesn't matter how sophisticated the methodology is.

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## Elliot Luber

There's a benefit to real lessons and learning correct techniques, but much of the bluegrass literature (old time fiddle tunes, etc.) was passed down by playing together with learned folks for centuries. Bluegrass, as we know it, was of course a fusion of several of these blues and string band traditions in the swing era. In the beginning, there weren't records, just porches and radios.

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## Pete Summers

> There's a benefit to real lessons and learning correct techniques, but much of the bluegrass literature (old time fiddle tunes, etc.) was passed down by playing together with learned folks for centuries. Bluegrass, as we know it, was of course a fusion of several of these blues and string band traditions in the swing era. In the beginning, there weren't records, just porches and radios.


No doubt it would be easier to learn by ear if you had an experienced player sitting on the porch with you and showing what he/she is doing (or if you have perfect pitch and begin young like Vannillamandolin did). But for old geezers like me trying to pick tunes up by ear from listening to recordings is tough. I still try though, but mostly I hunt up the score or tabs. At my age, I don't figure to have a whole lot of time to learn a new language, so I need shortcuts.
 :Wink:

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## Pasha Alden

Hi All 

Such an interesting discussiion.  I am so fortunate, my father was musically inclined.  I developed perfect pitch and also did some music when I was younger, so no problem with notes picking these out and hearing the harmonies. 
Agree with all that Ivan, JohnZ and many others said: jam jam listen, listen, practice picking the  notes out of the song in the original key.  then sing it in a different key.  That would help with playing by ear.
Happy playing 

VM

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## Pasha Alden

Hi pete Summers, Agreed, if it goes quicker then learning that new language (nudge nudge wink wink) then grab those tabs with both hands.  <big smile> 
Happy playing 

Vanillamandolin

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