# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

## mandotim1955

Hi all.
I played briefly in a jam in the Uk last night, and saw/heard a very nice sounding F-style mandolin with the inscription 'The Bluegrass' in Gibson-style script on the headstock. The inlay was a nicely done fern, and it was a dark and well-used sunburst colour. I didn't get chance to talk to the owner as I had to leave for a gig, but I'm curious about who might have made this instrument. It had THAT tone. Has anyone come across these?
Tim

----------


## Peter Kurtze

Reckon that would be Glen Dean Cecil of Charleston, WV: 
http://www.wchstv.com/traveling/2011/twv110120.shtml

----------


## mandotim1955

Thats the one! He talks on the link about one of his mandolins being in Derbyshire, England; I'm pretty sure that must have been the one I saw. Thanks for the info! 
Tim

----------


## Bernie Daniel

Interesting.  Not to sound skeptical but for a machinist and a jet engine mechanic to take a Gibson mandolin apart and "to see what is wrong with it" strikes me as a person with no shortage of self esteem?   What part of being a machinist or a jet engine mechanic is training for wood working, luthiery or acoustics?  Just wondering.

I wonder if any professional bluegrass musicians play a "The Bluegrass" mandolin?

----------


## Larry S Sherman

I like the name "_The Bluegrass_" about the same as "_The Loar_". How about simply "_The Mandolin_"?

Larry

----------


## allenhopkins

> Interesting.  Not to sound skeptical but for a machinist and a jet engine mechanic to take a Gibson mandolin apart and "to see what is wrong with it" strikes me as a person with no shortage of self esteem?   What part of being a machinist or a jet engine mechanic is training for wood working, luthiery or acoustics?  Just wondering...


*Little-known fact:* Lloyd Loar's great-nephew Cosmo Loar, experienced mandolin luthier, took apart a GE J79-11A turbojet engine "to see what was wrong with it" and make improvements.  Cosmo was last seen when his plane's engine exploded over central Iowa...

At least when you "improve" a mandolin, you don't fall from 30 thousand feet.

----------

lowtone2, 

Russ Donahue

----------


## John Flynn

> Interesting.  Not to sound skeptical but for a machinist and a jet engine mechanic to take a Gibson mandolin apart and "to see what is wrong with it" strikes me as a person with no shortage of self esteem?   What part of being a machinist or a jet engine mechanic is training for wood working, luthiery or acoustics?  Just wondering.
> 
> I wonder if any professional bluegrass musicians play a "The Bluegrass" mandolin?


Pete Langdell of Rigel mandolin fame was a machinist by trade and has said he applied a lot of that expertise to making mandolins. Heck, Gilchrist started out making surfboards! I think the mental aspect of what it takes to be good at one craft, like patience, curiosity, precision, passion, etc. can be applied from one craft to another. 

I doubt many pros play "The Bluegrass," anymore than would play "The Loar." The whole idea behind those kinds of brands is to make some of the characteristic bluegrass tone, and appearance, available at price points that are much lower than what a pro might be willing to pay. I do agree that names like "The Bluegrass" and "The Loar" are kind of hokey, but I guess some people like that sort of thing.

----------

jim simpson, 

Timbofood

----------


## Bernie Daniel

Well more power to him but Gibson has been making mandolins for over 100 years.  Of course they have had their darker periods but its pretty hard to imagine someone with no experience looking in there and "seeing what they did wrong".  Really?  I wonder if the graduations looked wrong or maybe the f-holes were in misplaced?  Anyway...........

Still it looks like he is selling them so good on him.  I just thought that the statement sounded "cheeky".  Then again, perhaps he dismantled a 1970's F-12............. :Smile:

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> *Little-known fact:* Lloyd Loar's great-nephew Cosmo Loar, experienced mandolin luthier, took apart a GE J79-11A turbojet engine "to see what was wrong with it" and make improvements.  Cosmo was last seen when his plane's engine exploded over central Iowa...
> 
> At least when you "improve" a mandolin, you don't fall from 30 thousand feet.


Thanks for the under reported news story.  I did miss that one.  However the fact that he made it to 30,000 feet before it went kerr-blamo could be considered a small, albeit fleeting, victory I suppose?

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Perry Babasin

Glen Dean Cecil is in the Cafe builders database (information needs updating) and the instrument looks and sounds pretty good... I'd like to hear it played by a hot-shot, but it sounds pretty good. Don't most builders think they have something special going on with their design, or they're striving to capture the special magical vintage combination of woods and construction details? Heck sakes, there's a thread a mile long about Steve Perry and Mando-voodoo, going on right now!  The guy is a small custom builder in the U.S. Isn't that what a lot of folks here are always looking for? Just sayin'...

----------

DataNick

----------


## allenhopkins

I guess what we're reacting to is his stating that his "God-given talent" as a machinist enabled him to take his "cigar box" Gibson apart and spot "all the things that were wrong with it," which he fixed with the "secrets" that only he, of all the world's mandolin builders, has been able to develop.  To be a creative craftsperson, one has to have a healthy ego, and believe that one has the ability and insight to create a very good product, perhaps even one that's better than anyone else's.  He may be smarter and more talented than any of the well-known Gibson "names," or alternatively, he may have acquired a really clunky Gibson that had much room for improvement, which he recognized and, well, improved.

But there's a touch of hubris in someone saying that Gibson has built mandolins for a century, but he, as a machinist and jet engine mechanic, was readily able to see where they went wrong and correct all their mistakes.  I'm sure he's made some great instruments (though I haven't seen or played one), but coming across a tad more modest wouldn't have hurt.

----------


## PJ Doland

The guy sounds comically arrogant.

But on the other hand, I'm similarly amused by some people's belief that there's no room for improvement in a 90-year-old mandolin design.

At the very least, you would think we still wouldn't be building headstocks with decorative protrusions that might as well have been designed to break off.

----------


## Ed Goist

He might know jet engines, and maybe even luthiery, but he sure doesn't know marketing...
Why on earth would one have a product position statement that risked disenfranchising a large percentage of one's future potential customers?...Particularly when one's market demographic is as limited as 'mandolin players who might purchase a new domestically made mandolin'?

----------


## draino

Mandolin players are a funny lot.  It seems a large number of us (I include myself here) judge instruments not just on their own merits, but based on our feelings towards the person that built the particular mandolin under consideration.  Maybe its because on this forum we're left to judge a large number of instruments we've never heard/played?

----------


## John Flynn

> He might know jet engines, and maybe even luthiery, but he sure doesn't know marketing...
> Why on earth would one have a product position statement that risked disenfranchising a large percentage of one's future potential customers?...Particularly when one's market demographic is as limited as 'mandolin players who might purchase a new domestically made mandolin'?


Sounds to me like his marketing is pretty good, if he has sold overseas and to so many parts of the US. His statements remind me a lot of statements made by the folks who made "Moonbeam" mandolins a few years ago. They took a similar approach and those sold pretty briskly for a while. I see his statement as being pretty effective for a certain demographic. I think there are a lot of people out there who want a Gibson, but can't afford one. If they can't have one, they want one that sounds like one, American made. Now, here comes a guy who has a pitch who says, hey, not only can you afford an American, hand-made mandolin that sounds like a Gibbie, you can have one that sounds even better! 

If you are going to go after "the big dog's" market, you can't be an also-ran, you've got to say you're better. What do you want him to say, "Well, I don't have as much experience as Gibson, but I took one of their 'dark years' instruments apart and I sorta copied it, and I don't charge as much...wanna buy one?"

I'm not saying I buy into his pitch, but I can see what he's going for and it seems to be working.

----------


## allenhopkins

> Mandolin players are a funny lot.  It seems a large number of us (I include myself here) judge instruments not just on their own merits, but based on our feelings towards the person that built the particular mandolin under consideration.  Maybe its because on this forum we're left to judge a large number of instruments we've never heard/played?


Well, we _are_ a funny lot,* sometimes, but I for one am not judging Mr. Cecil's *mandolins,* which may be as excellent as mandotim stated in the first post.  I'm just reacting to an independent builder stating that he has the "God-given talent" to correct Gibson's design and construction errors with "secret" procedures only he understands.  What interests me is that he's still building a mandoln that looks a lot like a Gibson F-5; guess those Gibson "mistakes" didn't include putting a scroll and points on a carved-top, f-hole mandolin...

* _“I was walking down the street one day and noticed this man a lookin’ at me, and I said “Hey Mister, did you give me a funny look?” He said “No, lady, you got a funny look, but I didn’t give it to you”._ -- Cousin Minnie Pearl

----------


## mrmando

> However the fact that he made it to 30,000 feet before it went kerr-blamo could be considered a small, albeit fleeting, victory I suppose?


Not if he started at 50,000 feet!

----------


## Ed Goist

> ...snip...What do you want him to say...snip...


I believe a more effective marketing approach would be to praise the "Big Boy" for their history, design innovations, and track record, but to also point out that as a small shop, he can offer an enhanced level of attention to detail, personalization, innovation, and instrument specific modifications that a larger manufacturers can not.

This product position both illustrates a clear advantage his product offers over the "Big Boy" producer, while at the same time does not risk alienating Gibson fans.

I wonder what percentage of ALL folks in the market for a $2,000+ mandolin are fans of Gibson? It has to be quite large. Why insult the brand that these folks admire, and in many cases idolize?

Besides, speaking poorly of your competition always reflects poorly on you.

----------


## mrmando

> I just thought that the statement sounded "cheeky".  Then again, perhaps he dismantled a 1970's F-12.............


To judge from Craig's List, an Epiphone MM50 or Flatiron Festival F2 counts as a "Gibson" even though it's a budget brand made in China. So too with a '30s Kalamazoo. i'd have to know more about the instrument he took apart before I pass judgment on his hubris. And anyhow, I've heard some cigar-box instruments that sound pretty darn good. For a cigar box.

----------


## draino

I dunno, the guy doesn't seem so arrogant to me.  Maybe that Gibson he had was built in the early 70s . . . even die-hard Gibson fans would probably agree that those instruments weren't great.  He's a man of faith acknowledging what he believes is the source of his ability as a woodworker/craftsman.  His "secrets" didn't seem to me like snake-oil -- it was an editorial interview with a local news station, not "LuthierTV" 

Clearly one of his instruments sounded good enough to grab a fellow pickers attention in a jam!

----------


## John Flynn

"Besides, speaking poorly of your competition always reflects poorly on you."

Excuse me? Have you ever seen...political ads? And there lots of product ads that do it also. I could give you a long list. Speaking poorly of the competition may reflect poorly on in SOME circumstances, it works great in others. You may not like it, but it is one of the huge market strategy choices.

----------


## Mike Bunting

> "Besides, speaking poorly of your competition always reflects poorly on you."
> 
> Excuse me? Have you ever seen...political ads? And there lots of product ads that do it also. I could give you a long list. Speaking poorly of the competition may reflect poorly on in SOME circumstances, it works great in others. You may not like it, but it is one of the huge market strategy choices.


 I have seen political ads and to me it speaks very poorly of the party placing the ad. Enough to cost them my vote as a matter of fact, it says loads about character.

----------

Mandoplumb, 

Timbofood

----------


## John Flynn

> I have seen political ads and to me it speaks very poorly of the party placing the ad. Enough to cost them my vote as a matter of fact, it says loads about character.


Personally, I agree with you. But from a marketing perspective, it cannot be denied that negative ads can and do work, or they would have been abandoned long ago. True, they can backfire, but when used right they can be very effective. The Mac v PC ads are an example from the product world.

----------


## Ed Goist

John, suffice it to say that marketing is not an exact science.
I do believe very firmly, as a marketing professional, that when you mention your competition as part of a marketing strategy you shift the focus of your audience from you to them. I have always directed my marketing campaigns, and those of my clients, away from this. It hasn't always worked great, but well enough.
I also think this strategy is doubly dangerous when you choose to mention the clear "Biggest Dog" in the pack.
Although Glen Dean Cecil may be a great guy and he may build killer mandolins, I'll end by pointing out that a Google search of his name mentioned on the Cafe results in only "about 14 hits".
It's probably safe to say that the extent to which a mandolin producer is mentioned here is a viable, measurable indication of the effectiveness of their marketing efforts.
Others may disagree. Marketing is not an exact science.
I wish Mr. Cecil all the best with his "The Bluegrass" mandolins.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> John, suffice it to say that marketing is not an exact science.
> I do believe very firmly, as a marketing professional, that when you mention your competition as part of a marketing strategy you shift the focus of your audience from you to them. I have always directed my marketing campaigns, and those of my clients, away from this. It hasn't always worked great, but well enough.
> I also think this strategy is doubly dangerous when you choose to mention the clear "Biggest Dog" in the pack.
> Although Glen Dean Cecil may be a great guy and he may build killer mandolins, I'll end by pointing out that a Google search of his name mentioned on the Cafe results in only "about 14 hits".
> It's probably safe to say that the extend to which a mandolin producer is mentioned here is a viable, measurable indication of the effectiveness of their marketing efforts.
> Others may disagree. Marketing is not an exact science.
> I wish Mr. Cecil all the best with his "The Bluegrass" mandolins.


Agreed!  I wish him well also -- one should have fun in retirement if possible.  I also wish Gibson would buy one of those "The Bluegrass" mandolins and find out what they are doing wrong!  :Smile:

----------


## Ed Goist

One more quick post to emphasize that I really do not want to be negative about this builder or his mandolins. I'm simply questioning how he chooses to communicate his mission and message.

Anyone who has seen my (often long-winded) posts on the Cafe knows that I am a vocal advocate for small shop domestic mandolin builders.

I really do wish him all the best.

I couldn't find a website for him (or really much at all on-line), but I did find this section on an interview published in the Charleston (WV) Gazette. Looks like his "The Bluegrass" F5 mandolins go for $3,000:

*INNERVIEWS: ; My mandolins are louder; Pickers beat a path to Davis Creek mandolin maker* 

"He built a better mandolin. Now the bluegrass world beats a path to his door. Glen Dean Cecil hasn't budged from the Davis Creek hollow where he grew up. Despite the remote location, pickers from all over find their way to his door, eager to plunk down $3,000 for The Bluegrass, a painstakingly handcrafted mandolin with a mother-of-pearl logo inlaid on the neck. He promises a louder sound, a distinctive resonance achieved with West Virginia curly maple or Brazilian rosewood no longer available in the United States. In the summer, he plays with his bluegrass band, Front Page. Every winter, he builds four mandolins in the workshop beside his mountain- hugging home..."

----------


## P.D. Kirby

Ed I just did a google search with the parameters of the builders name and the word mandolin and it fetched a whopping 516,000 hit's. It would appear that there is Mandolin life outside of the Cafe, just sayin. I don't have an opinion about his Mandolins mostly because I have yet to play one but it would appear those that have speak very highly of them. I have been around Bluegrass for most of my 54 years and in the circles I play and jam in not too many local Mandolin pickers are members here and a lot of folks I play with don't even have or care to use computers. Most of the Mountain folks around here would rather play the Mandolin rather than talk about it.

----------


## Bluman

Seems like a nice old guy who didn't like the way his mandolin sounded (anyone else out there) but rather than searching for the "best"  mandolin and constantly upgrading he decided to take his apart and make it sound better, at least to him.  From that experience he decided to start building his own mandolins.  This sounds like a recipe the Mother of invention uses in her kitchen.  While he doesn't have the same mass marketing department as Gibson, there have been a few people who have liked his product enough to choose it over a Gibson, Weber, Northfield, and all the other great builders out there.  He was explaining what inspired him, so in a way Gibson is responsible for inspiring another builder like they have done so many times during the past 100 years, some worked for the company and others developed their own style and brand.  

All mandolins are not created equal that's why there isn't just one Gibson model that sells for the same price.  So I say its great to have all the choices in life and welcome The Bluegrass to the list of choices available.

----------


## allenhopkins

Just to reiterate: if Mr. Cecil has so completely transcended Gibson design and construction, why do his mandolins resemble Gibson F-5's so closely?

Just askin'...

----------


## John Flynn

> Just to reiterate: if Mr. Cecil has so completely transcended Gibson design and construction, why do his mandolins resemble Gibson F-5's so closely?
> 
> Just askin'...


We've had threads ad nauseum about that. It's because that's the appearance that most customers want. And it's not so much because Gibson did it - as has been said, there were years Gibson didn't always do it well, it's more because that's what Monroe played, that's what got popular and that's what people are used to seeing as a mandolin. I remember the hue and cry when Rigel came out with the CT-110 came out: "Oh, that just looks weird!" thread after thread. But it was a great mandolin. So now the audience has builders in a bind: Either they copy Gibson in apprearance or they lose part of their market. Even the really big names that truly have transcended and improved on the Gibson design: Gilchrist, Nugget, Dudenbostel, and others, still keep the Gibson appearance. 

What I'm just askin' is why to people get their backs up whenever anyone criticizes Gibson? Are you saying they're perfect? Are you saying they're sacred? Are they paying you to do their PR?

----------


## G. Fisher

How did a thread that started out asking only if anyone knew anything about "The Bluegrass" mandolin and a video clip spin into this???

----------


## John Flynn

> How did a thread that started out asking only if anyone knew anything about "The Bluegrass" mandolin and a video clip spin into this???


Are you kidding? If you've been on the Cafe' since 2002, you should be used to this sort of thing by now! :Laughing:

----------


## G. Fisher

> Are you kidding? If you've been on the Cafe' since 2002, you should be used to this sort of thing by now!


Unfortunately you're right I've gotten used to topics going off on a totally different direction.

----------


## allenhopkins

> ...What I'm just askin' is why to people get their backs up whenever anyone criticizes Gibson? Are you saying they're perfect? Are you saying they're sacred? Are they paying you to do their PR?


No. No. And, no.  (Maybe I should bill Gibson for advocacy services?  Don't think so.)

What I _am_ saying, fairly clearly I think, is that Mr. Cecil in his interview stated that he owned a Gibson mandolin which "sounded like a cigar box," so he took it apart, and, using his "God-given talent" as a machinist and jet engine mechanic, built a mandolin that avoided all the "mistakes" Gibson had made in building the instrument, using materials and processes he calls "his secrets."

Given this description, I just found it trifle ironic that the mandolin(s) he produced, look *a lot* like Gibson F-5's.  Not that there's anything wrong with that; he may have built a *better* F-5 than Gibson did/does, like those "really big names" you cite that "truly have transcended and improved on the Gibson design."  *Their* mandolins look a lot like Gibson F-5's as well.

Mandolins don't have to look like Gibson F-5's.  There are many small-builder instruments out there that don't, from luthiers like Monteleone, Giacomel, Campanella, etc.  Mandolins designed to compete in the bluegrass market (and I assume a mandolin labeled "The Bluegrass" is designed for that market) do have extra incentives to adopt the F-5 silhouette, as you point out.

On the other hand, I don't hear the builders you mention, saying, "the reason I started building mandolins is that Gibson mandolins 'sound like cigar boxes.'"  I'm sure they feel that they're building F-5-style instruments that are better than current Gibson factory products; otherwise, they wouldn't be competing with high-end Gibsons.  Some may agree, others may disagree -- without being paid Gibson flacks, or thinking Gibson's instruments are "perfect" or "sacred."

'Nuff said, on my part.  It just struck me odd that a builder who made a point of saying Gibson mandolins are inferior (or at least that the one he owned was inferior), would make an instrument that looked so much like the "inferior" instrument he was criticizing.

----------

jesserules

----------


## G. Fisher

I think you need to listen to what he said in that clip again. He doesn't say what you claim he does. Listen carefully to the first 18 seconds.

----------


## mrmando

> Ed I just did a google search with the parameters of the builders name and the word mandolin and it fetched a whopping 516,000 hit's.


I'd like to know how you did that ... a properly configured search yields only 102 hits, whereas an unconfigured search yields 189,000.

----------


## allenhopkins

> I think you need to listen to what he said in that clip again. He doesn't say what you claim he does. Listen carefully to the first 18 seconds.


OK, here are some verbatim quotes from the interview soundtrack:
_"Being a retired machinist and jet-engine mechanic, I had some God-given talent."
"I come_  [sic]_ up with some things that really shook people up that make mandolins."
"I had a Gibson mandolin, and it sounded like a cigar box.  I decided to take that mandolin apart..."
"I took the mandolin apart, and I seen_ [sic]_ a lot of things that was wrong with it -- reason it was like it was."
"I've got some secrets that are in the wood and things that I did that that enhances_ [the volume]..."

I think I have these right.  Check me if I'm wrong.  This is spending a lot of time, on what I meant as a somewhat offhand observation of the irony of at least partially copying the design and construction of a mandolin that "sounds like a cigar box."

I'm now getting fascinated by Mr. Cecil and his "The Bluegrass" mandolins, so I may have to buy one...

----------


## G. Fisher

He states right away. "I got into this by meeting a friend and he taught me the trade."

He didn't just go at it from his machinist and jet engine background.

----------


## michaelpthompson

> OK, here are some verbatim quotes from the interview soundtrack:
> "I come _[sic]_ up with some things that really shook people up that make mandolins."
> "I took the mandolin apart, and I seen _[sic]_ a lot of things that was wrong with it -- reason it was like it was."


Don't know anything about all this, but it is definitely fascinating that this supergenius who knows everything that's wrong with mandolins built by one of the greatest geniuses of the industry can't even handle the basic grammar of the English language.

----------


## dcoventry

Ah, free speech. Ain't it grand? You know, we fight for that right. :Wink: 

Don't believe everything you read/hear. :Disbelief: 

Can Gibsons be improved upon? Lloyd Loar thought so and we all seem to like the result. What's the next great improvement going to be? I don't know, but folks better be working on it. And hopefully we will recognize improvements a little faster and with more appreciation than old Lloyd got back in his day.  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Don't know anything about all this, but it is definitely fascinating that this supergenius who knows everything that's wrong with mandolins built by one of the greatest geniuses of the industry can't even handle the basic grammar of the English language.


 He wasn't criticizing all the mandolins of whoever you refer to, but one mandolin and it is pretty much accepted that Gibson built a lot of crap during the '70's at least so I'd suspect he had one of those. His lack ability in the fine points of of the English is totally irrelevant and is just a nasty catty comment.

----------


## dcoventry

Mike,

I, too, thought the comment on his english was a bit much.  This man speaks his folky dialect just perfect like. Michael, such judgements from a guy in a touk. Let he is without fashion faux pas cast the first derision. :Laughing: 

That being said, I thought sub-titles would have been helpful and funny.

----------


## Ron McMillan

> Don't know anything about all this, but it is definitely fascinating that this supergenius who knows everything that's wrong with mandolins built by one of the greatest geniuses of the industry can't even handle the basic grammar of the English language.


Then we are surely seeing it discussed in the right place, in a forum that sometimes features endless pontification from some people who occasionally fess up to having played mandolin for a ridiculously short period of time - and whose expertise exists nowhere but in their own imaginations. The same people spout regurgitated third-hand wisdom from their far more legitimately experienced forum participants, which means we have to learn to distinguish between the genuinely knowledgable and the deludedly enthusiastic who have convinced themselves that they know as much as the *real* experts do.

None of which, I have to emphasise, is too stiff a price to pay for the genuine wealth of knowledge shared so freely here, and which I value so highly. 

I too find the claims of the maker of 'The Bluegrass' mandolins a bit specious, but then again, other people here have heard instruments he has created, and loved them. That makes for an interesting set of circumstances, and I am glad to have read about him and his instruments.

ron

----------


## 8ch(pl)

Canadian Luthier Doug Woodley was also a machinist.  I haven't heard much about him lately and suspect he may no longer be building.  Hope I am wrong.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> We've had threads ad nauseum about that. It's because that's the appearance that most customers want. And it's not so much because Gibson did it - as has been said, there were years Gibson didn't always do it well, it's more because that's what Monroe played, that's what got popular and that's what people are used to seeing as a mandolin. I remember the hue and cry when Rigel came out with the CT-110 came out: "Oh, that just looks weird!" thread after thread. But it was a great mandolin. So now the audience has builders in a bind: Either they copy Gibson in apprearance or they lose part of their market. Even the really big names that truly have transcended and improved on the Gibson design: Gilchrist, Nugget, Dudenbostel, and others, still keep the Gibson appearance. 
> 
> What I'm just askin' is why to people get their backs up whenever anyone criticizes Gibson? Are you saying they're perfect? Are you saying they're sacred? Are they paying you to do their PR?


John, I was not "defending" Gibson --I merely pointing out that this individual made a rather immodest statement (I think that is fair) by claiming, with no known prior experience in woodworking or luthiery to know what Gibson with over one hundred years of company existence and thousands of combined years of woodworking/woodworker skills did "wrong".  Perhaps this was another Paul via Damascus moment?   But I doubt it.

And in fact, the man did say that the Gibson "sounded like a cigar box" -- I guess I would be justified to get my back up on that one -- but I didn't and I don't!  :Smile:

----------


## G. Fisher

> John, I was not "defending" Gibson --I merely pointing out that this individual made a rather immodest statement (I think that is fair) by claiming, with no known prior experience in woodworking or luthiery to know what Gibson with over one hundred years of company existence and thousands of combined years of woodworking/woodworker skills did "wrong".  Perhaps this was another Paul via Damascus moment?   But I doubt it.
> 
> And in fact, the man did say that the Gibson "sounded like a cigar box" -- I guess I would be justified to get my back up on that one -- but I didn't and I don't!




He states right away. "I got into this by meeting a friend and he taught me the trade."

He didn't just go at it from his machinist and jet engine background.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> He states right away. "I got into this by meeting a friend and he taught me the trade."
> 
> He didn't just go at it from his machinist and jet engine background.


Yes perhaps the friend was Lloyd Loar... :Smile:

----------


## Bluman

Maybe LLoyd Loar was his friend, however the one Loar made for John Reischman (some say the best of the best of Loar's work) has been improved by way of a new radiused fret board, (improved in John's opinion), which illustrates the point just because is says Gibson on the peghead doesn't mean it can't be improved upon by someone with a different point of view.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> Maybe LLoyd Loar was his friend, however the one Loar made for John Reischman (some say the best of the best of Loar's work) has been improved by way of a new radiused fret board, (improved in John's opinion), which illustrates the point just because is says Gibson on the peghead doesn't mean it can't be improved upon by someone with a different point of view.


Except that playability is not what this discussion is about.  Its about tone and/or volume.  If you listen to the video he took the back off to see Gibson's problems -- you can check the fingerboard without that.  Also you have created a bit of a canard I suggest.  I certainly did not suggest that a Gibson mandolin could never be improved upon.  But not just anyone is likely to do that and this luthier and Steve Gilchrist at different levels of the craft I expect.

If someone is going to improve on existing Gibson mandolins I expect it will come from this kind of effort over many years of hard work not removing the back and making an inspection.

----------


## G. Fisher

> Except that playability is not what this discussion is about.  Its about tone and/or volume.


No, this discussion started with a question of if anyone had experience with "The Bluegrass" mandolins. Then it changed direction with questioning the ability of the builder and other smarmy comments throughout the thread.

----------


## Chuck Naill

> .  I'm just reacting to an independent builder stating that he has the "God-given talent" to correct Gibson's design and construction errors with "secret" procedures only he understands.


How is this different from the dozens of services advertised for optimization (I am not referring to a proper set up).

----------


## G. Fisher

That's not what this thread is about.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> That's not what this thread is about.



Early on in the string the video of the builder making the aforementioned statement was included for us to read.  Some are commenting on that video which clearly pertains to the OP's topic namely "The Bluegrass" mandolins.  Other poster's statements are smarmy?

----------


## John Flynn

> That's not what this thread is about.


Message boards, 101: Anyone can start a thread on any topic, but the thread discussion can meander in whatever different directions the posters take it, not unlike the way person-to-person conversations can meander. Whether you like it or not, that's the way it works. Any thread is "about" whatever the people who post on it make it be about. It is not limited to any directions set by the original post.

----------


## G. Fisher

You're right John.

I should've said "That's not what this thread was started about."  :Smile:

----------


## michaelpthompson

You guys have been going round and round the same points for quite a while now.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> You guys have been going round and round the same points for quite a while now.


Sure, because each time a statement is repeated the more correct it becomes...  

One thing is for certain if I ever see a "The Bluegrass" mandolin I sure will want to check it out.  :Smile:

----------


## michaelpthompson

> One thing is for certain if I ever see a "The Bluegrass" mandolin I sure will want to check it out.


Got that right Bernie. After all this, I'm much more intrigued to find out what they sound like.

----------


## mrmando

> One thing is for certain if I ever see a "The Bluegrass" mandolin I sure will want to check it out.


Me too. Heck, I might even take it apart to see what he done wrong ... er, did wrong.

----------


## allenhopkins

> ...One thing is for certain if I ever see a "The Bluegrass" mandolin I sure will want to check it out.


I'm halfway to calling up Mr. Cecil and ordering one!  (Which, I guess, proves that hubristic marketing can succeed, even with a cynical/skeptical audience, such as I.)

But, could I send it back if it "sounds like a cigar box"?   After all, I'd be comparing it to my vintage Shmergel Devastator...

----------


## Bernie Daniel

If all three of us bought one that would be 3/4's of his yearly production!  He at least ought to buy us all a Mandolin Cafe hat for that kind of sales boost.  How do  you sell mandolins -- maybe by getting a good "discussion" raging on the fourm...

----------


## mandotim1955

Hi all, Tim the OP here! You never can tell what's going to spark up a discussion round these parts! For what it's worth, I was really impressed by the sound of this mandolin; rich, dry and woody when chopping, and a clear, articulated tone when playing fiddle tunes and breaks. The guy playing it wouldn't claim to be a super-picker, but he was drawing loads of tone from the instrument, and plenty of volume without seeming to dig in too hard. There were two loud guitars, a Mastertone banjo, upright bass, mandolin banjo and a uke playing, and the mandolin cut through like a knife. The mandolin owner clearly knew his instruments; he also had a very old, battered and wonderful-sounding Martin D28. As far as the maker and his ideas goes, he seems to have got it right on this one. Anyone else spotted one of these mandolins yet?

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> Hi all, Tim the OP here! You never can tell what's going to spark up a discussion round these parts! For what it's worth, I was really impressed by the sound of this mandolin; rich, dry and woody when chopping, and a clear, articulated tone when playing fiddle tunes and breaks. The guy playing it wouldn't claim to be a super-picker, but he was drawing loads of tone from the instrument, and plenty of volume without seeming to dig in too hard. There were two loud guitars, a Mastertone banjo, upright bass, mandolin banjo and a uke playing, and the mandolin cut through like a knife. The mandolin owner clearly knew his instruments; he also had a very old, battered and wonderful-sounding Martin D28. As far as the maker and his ideas goes, he seems to have got it right on this one. Anyone else spotted one of these mandolins yet?


You got your moneys worth!  Hey you can never tell what WON"T spark a debate here.  But you did hit a nerve and yes I think many of us would now like to see a "The Bluegrass" mandolin.  Probably one will appear on the classifieds later today.

----------


## mandotim1955

Living here in the UK, it's unlikely that I'll see another of these small-scale US built mandolins. I guess the real test of a builder is consistency; not necessarily the same mandolin every time, but consistent high quality in terms of tone, volume and fit/finish. I'd be really interested to hear from someone else who has seen or heard one, to see if this builder really has worked out a way of producing high quality mandolins, or whether he just 'got lucky'.
Tim

----------


## Trevor Thomas

Hi Tim!

Ive actually had a play on this very mandolin, I believe. It belongs to Steve Read, who has been playing and listening to bluegrass for 50 odd years. I play with Steve once a month in Sheffield. When you mentioned about his old Martin, I thought it must be him. 

The Bluegrass is a perfectly fine instrument. I think I might borrow it for a tune or two next time I see Steve. Personally I prefer the sound of my own mandolin (Collings MF), but these things are subjective, arent they? Itll be interesting to hear one and then the other on an A/B basis.

----------


## Ed Goist

> ...snip...‘The Bluegrass’ is a perfectly fine instrument...snip...Personally I prefer the sound of my own mandolin (Collings MF), but these things are subjective, aren’t they? It’ll be interesting to hear one and then the other on an A/B basis.


I wonder how Collings figured out how to improve upon "The Bluegrass"? They must have had a retired jet engineer take one apart.

----------

Nick Gellie

----------


## AlanN

> the folks who made "Moonbeam" mandolins a few years ago. They took a similar approach and those sold pretty briskly for a while.


Serendipitous reference. Randy Jones of the LRB was playing one this past weekend. I had a chance to check it out. Somewhat non-trad in shape, had very good tone and feel.

I agree, naming it what he names it is pesky. He can name it what he wants. He is the maker.

----------


## jim simpson

> *Little-known fact:* Lloyd Loar's great-nephew Cosmo Loar, experienced mandolin luthier, took apart a GE J79-11A turbojet engine "to see what was wrong with it" and make improvements.  Cosmo was last seen when his plane's engine exploded over central Iowa...
> 
> At least when you "improve" a mandolin, you don't fall from 30 thousand feet.



I'm thinking, "Loar Jet"!

----------

108 Mile

----------


## Jack Roberts

> I'm thinking, "Loar Jet"!


>>>>Groan!!!<<<<

----------


## Capt. E

Why would a structural engineer be unable to fully understand wood and acoustics as applied to the construction of musical instruments if they work mainly with metal? Has anybody mentioned that Lynn Dudenbostal is an engineer? He makes some pretty good instruments.  Lloyd Loar was also an engineer.

----------


## allenhopkins

> Why would a structural engineer be unable to fully understand wood and acoustics as applied to the construction of musical instruments if they work mainly with metal? Has anybody mentioned that Lynn Dudenbostal is an engineer? He makes some pretty good instruments.  Lloyd Loar was also an engineer.


You're attacking a straw man, really.  *No one* has said that the luthier who builds "The Bluegrass" mandolins, is "unable to fully understand" mandolin construction.  What bothers some of us is the idea that, *because* he's worked in a very distantly-related field (jet engine mechanics vs. mandolin luthiery), he would be able to take apart a mandolin and quickly figure out "what all other mandolin builders -- or at least this one -- are doing *wrong.*"  There are several leaps of faith in that narrative, IMHO.

I'm perfectly willing to concede that he may build a nice mandolin.  And, by the way, Loar called himself an *acoustical* engineer, and his writings were in the field of applied acoustics and their relation to instrument design.  He taught _The Physics of Music_ at Northwestern, and *the lab notes of one of his students* have been preserved and published.

----------


## Capt. E

Sorry, I'm not attacking anyone. I agree it takes quite some ego for anyone to claim they know what is "wrong" with current or past mandolin construction. A little humility is in order from any builder, designer, engineer, etc.  Heavens, Lloyd Loar himself was never completely happy with his mandolins. They weren't even his favorite instrument.

All power to anyone who attempts to "improve" on anything.

----------


## David Newton

Man this has been the best reading thread, it has kept me riveted from first to now!
I was a jet mechanic in the Navy, and I credit my ability to build fine guitars from my dad, who built boxes.

If this thread is any lesson to me, I should make some outlandish claims, and get all the attention I deserve.
Being humble isn't getting the job done.




> Canadian Luthier Doug Woodley was also a machinist. I haven't heard much about him lately and suspect he may no longer be building. Hope I am wrong.


I worked on a Woodley instrument last week, a friend owns it. I estimate it is one of the finest sounding mandolins I've ever heard. Doug Woodley no longer builds, I also gather.

----------


## Tootie De Marco

Hi fellows,I'm relatively new to this forum and to the mandolin(under 2 years)but i must say that ''the bluegrass'' is for real.I recently bought #81 a few days ago and it sounds far better than i expected.I know that might not mean much with my limited experience to some but I have played a couple gibsons,webbers,1 flatiron,and a couple eastmans and i know its louder and deeper than any of those by far.It does have that woody sound that reminds you of monroe's. I 'm not impressed with  some of the detail work,because I've seen far better, but he sure got the sound down.

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Hi fellows,I'm relatively new to this forum and to the mandolin(under 2 years)but i must say that ''the bluegrass'' is for real.I recently bought #81 a few days ago and it sounds far better than i expected.I know that might not mean much with my limited experience to some but I have played a couple gibsons,webbers,1 flatiron,and a couple eastmans and i know its louder and deeper than any of those by far.It does have that woody sound that reminds you of monroe's. I 'm not impressed with  some of the detail work,because I've seen far better, but he sure got the sound down.


 Well, it's the sound that counts.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

So this thread came back to life!  After re-reading it I decided that since I have a degree in biochemistry that I should be able to determine what was wrong with my Gibson Sam Bush F-5.  
So I used a credit card and a soldering iron to pop the back off.  I could see instantly what Gibson had done wrong!  I removed the Western diamondback rattle.  I replaced the back using duct tape in case I ever want to go in there again.  Another improvement.   Now the mandolin sounds great.  
Seriously it would be interesting to see one of those Bluegrass mandolins.   We have a builder here in southwestern Ohio who has been building for about 5 years and his newest mandolins are just monsters.  See video clips of the Nichols Road mandolins here.http://www.nicholsroadmandolins.com/

----------


## helichuck

I can tell you this, I have one and it is one fine mandolin.
Everyone who has had the priveledge of playing it, including Danny Roberts, and Roy Clark JR. have all stopped in there tracks when they hear it.

It is flat out one of the best mandolins I have ever heard, and that includes the Loar I have heard Danny play.

So Glen is eccentric with his ravings, he sure is interesting to spend time with and hear him go on.

So when you can make a mandolin like one of his you can say what you want.

----------


## allenhopkins

> ...So Glen is eccentric with his ravings, he sure is interesting to spend time with and hear him go on.  So when you can make a mandolin like one of his you can say what you want.


Good point.  I'd like to emphasize that none of the banter about his somewhat bombastic statements, could be interpreted as a critique of his workmanship or design.

Perhaps he could build one for Frank Wakefield, and we could publish their discussion of it.  That would be fascinating, and quasi-enlightening.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> I can tell you this, I have one and it is one fine mandolin.
> Everyone who has had the priveledge of playing it, including Danny Roberts, and Roy Clark JR. have all stopped in there tracks when they hear it.
> 
> It is flat out one of the best mandolins I have ever heard, and that includes the Loar I have heard Danny play.
> 
> So Glen is eccentric with his ravings, he sure is interesting to spend time with and hear him go on.
> 
> So when you can make a mandolin like one of his you can say what you want.


Good input.  For the record -- my comments were meant to be humorous and not intended as a put down to Mr. Cecil.

You cannot do better than freed back from a player who has one so your comment are relevant for sure.

Since you seem to have had a chance to talk with Mr. Glen Cecil I wonder -- did you get an idea form your discussions as to generally what he thinks is the "flaw" that he discovered in the Gibson design?  

Another thing that would be interesting is to know exactly what kind of Gibson mandolin that Mr. Cecil took apart -- he refers to this on the news feature video.  To that point if he had a 1950's or 1960's Gibson -- sure it probably did not sound great -- that would not be news.  

I've had 3 of them from that period over the years and none of them sounded great.  The tops are too thick and not properly graduated.

So if that is Mr. Cecil's "discovery" then I guess over 100 or more luthiers beat him to that one and discovered that long before he did!   Like Randy Wood, a legend in the mandolin world who has been re-graduating Gibson mandolins for 40 years now.

Anyway I'm glad you like your mandolin and its good to hear the opinions from an owner.

----------


## helichuck

Hello, Good hearing from you.
I have talked to him on several occasions.
He did not tell me what the flaw was.
He did say that Gibson has asked him to come down and show them how he gets then to be so loud.
I enjoy hearing him go on about it, it is quite interesting, he can talk for hours.
I do hope that many more players get to hear his fine instruments.
When I get to talk to him again, I will try to remember to ask him some more pointed questions about the mandolins.

----------


## G. Fisher

Could you post some pictures and maybe some sound clips of your mandolin?

----------


## Bruce Clark

What a wonderful attitude to have. I can relate to this fellow as having other talents acquired over a lifetime of hard labor. Being a Jet mechanic is a real asset to his abilities as he is very aware of tolerances, and structural design. He is a real testament to hard working people trying to enhance anything we might use in society, and enjoying it too. Keep up the good work sir I enjoyed your enthusiasm.
Complimenting other businesses good works is never a bad thing. 
Bruce Clark
(Former Pipefitter)
Nichols Road Mandolins

----------


## Philippe Bony

> ...I think many of us would now like to see a "The Bluegrass" mandolin.  Probably one will appear on the classifieds later today.


Bingo !!! classifieds
 :Cool:

----------

Kirk Higgins

----------


## mrmando

Dang, that's ugly.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> ...I think many of us would now like to see a "The Bluegrass" mandolin. Probably one will appear on the classifieds later today.





> Bingo !!! classifieds


Yeah I was REALLY surprised when I saw that but it makes sense -- if someone had one to sell, well strike when the iron is hot!

----------


## mingusb1

I've got a friend that plays a "The Bluegrass" mandolin professionally out in Western NC.  It's a good sounding mandolin and has a nice bluegrass "pop".  

For the record I'm not so picky about looks, tradition, the minutiae of who signed what instrument when and where, etc.  If a mandolin sounds and plays good, I say so.  I've played lots of Gibson mandos over the years.  Some I'd like to own, and some that I wouldn't.

Z

----------


## helichuck

> Could you post some pictures and maybe some sound clips of your mandolin?


Here are a couple of pics, I will get an audio done.

----------


## johnsoba

Yesterday, Jan. 5, 2017, I played one of these, having been impressed by one at a festival this summer. It's a good mandolin and loud, though the cosmetics aren't the best. If anyone's interested, here's the link:

http://harrisonburg.craigslist.org/msg/5867431074.html

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

Reviving a five year old thread to post an ad might not go over so well.

----------


## DataNick

I wouldn't mind taking one for a spin...if I ever get to WV, I'll look up Mr. Cecil.

----------


## rf37

Not mandolin related, nor an advertisment for myself, but i work in a factory and build airbags for cars, but I took up building leather holster a few years back and have made quite a name for myself locally...so what does an airbag builder have that makes him qualify as a holster builder for deadly tools?  Craftiness and ability to offer something that others dont.  I myself would not tear apart a Gibson but I have tore apart other things because i simply am curious.  Cudos to him but I would rather him send me th gibson lol.  Just my thoughts.
rf37

----------

Mandoplumb

----------


## glenway

> I wouldn't mind taking one for a spin...if I ever get to WV, I'll look up Mr. Cecil.


A bit late to the discussion, but I've been in the company of Mr. Cecil many times at the Vandalia Gathering, held each Memorial Day weekend on the grounds of the capital of West Virginia at Charleston.  Mr. Cecil has been a performer there for years and leads a band called The Front Page Band.  Last count on the number of mandolins he's produced, if I recall correctly, was 96 and each one has been numbered accordingly.


He's in his mid-80s, although he doesn't look it, so if you wish to meet him, you may want to consider attending the Vandalia Gathering.  He's always under the same tree:  a huge magnolia and he gets there early each day - Friday through Sunday - to hold the spot for the rest of the boys.

No doubt he's proud of his builds and I've witnessed first hand comparisons side-by-side of other mandolins.  Haven't heard a better sound.

I'm attaching a link to a video I published on YouTube, in which Corey Hensley plays Glen's mandolin.  Those of you not familiar with Corey may know a band that he was a member of:  Doyle Lawson.  Corey's on his own now and his strength is in his vocals, from my perspective.  Anyway, here's a link to the video: <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vpXFFGaO3B4" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Other Vandalia Gathering videos with Glen picking his mandolins are there, too.

----------

DataNick, 

John Lloyd

----------


## allenhopkins

> ...I'm attaching a link to a video I published on YouTube, in which Corey Hensley plays Glen's mandolin...


Is this the one you mean?

----------


## glenway

Yes, sir.  That's Glen Dean in the white shirt observing.

----------

allenhopkins

----------


## jesserules

> So this thread came back to life!


Indeed ... :Wink:

----------


## jim simpson

Here's a video of helichuck's group: Beacon Road, a good gospel group, you can hear Chuck playing his Bluegrass mandolin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijY6T4wT8L8

----------


## glenway

One of my favorites here with Glen Dean on "The Bluegrass."  The youngster steals the show, however.
https://youtu.be/RLXKlfxSdis

----------


## glenway

And, one more.  Not the best angle of "The Bluegrass" but here are the boys under the magnolia at the Capital during the Vandalia Gathering:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBBvZUN9CzM

----------


## DataNick

> One of my favorites here with Glen Dean on "The Bluegrass."  The youngster steals the show, however.
> https://youtu.be/RLXKlfxSdis


That's Silas Powell, young monsta Monroe picker!

----------


## glenway

So I've learned, DataNick.  Good to have a name with that talented young man!

----------


## Roger Adams

> Is this the one you mean?


They ain't no flies on that mandolin.  :Smile:

----------

allenhopkins

----------


## kurth83

I met a violin maker who was a retired aircraft engineer.  He said the same thing, making a violin was an engineering problem.  Our violinist was a fan and played one of his, so he was invited to a classical music recital which is how I met him.

----------


## Capt. E

My deceased father in law was a master machinist at the research department of Hughes Tools. He also made some absolutely beautiful guitars. He died near 30  years ago in his bed, not in a plane crash.

----------


## Nathan Sanders

A 1992 The Bluegrass

----------


## Ray(T)

Not sure how I missed this thread back in 2011 but the mention of “Derbyshire” and then a “beaten up old Martin” made me think of Steve Read who another poster has identified. I’ve not seen much of Steve in recent years but I did see him and the mandolin last year - I was impressed with its sound and he was impressed with the sound of my Kimble!

As for the guitar, it is indeed a Martin D28 (I think 1962). It looks beaten up largely because he trashed it one winter when he decided to ski to a local session with it on his back in a gig bag and fell over. We pointed him at a, now retired, local luthier friend but Steve was insistent that it be repaired rather than replaced the back etc. Given the state of it - I did see the bag of bits! - the luthier did a very good job. The point of me telling this story is that this particular luthier originally worked for Rolls Royce building aero engines.

----------


## helichuck

Fantastic!!!!

----------


## jim simpson

Well I have to blame my friend, helichuck (Chuck), er I mean, thank him for this addition to my flock, a 2001 "The Bluegrass" by Glen Dean Cecil of Charleston, WV. 
Last night Chuck and I took his "The Bluegrass" along with with us to Morgantown, WV to check out this mandolin. Well even with old strings, I could tell it would be going home with me. I had a chance to play Chuck's mandolin last week at our monthly bluegrass jam. It sounded great and compared nicely to my Gibson F-5L, his was even louder which really surprised me. 
I understand that due to health issues, Dean won't be making any more mandolins. 

My thanks again to my buddy Chuck for helping facilitate this.

----------


## jim simpson

Hand drawn label by builder.

----------


## maxr

OTT insofar as this is about marketing rather than mandolins - is 'knocking copy' still allowed in US ads? I mean the kind of thing that says e.g. 

'Our panel tested 5 well known competitors for our 'Restroom Bliss' laxative, and here's how they rated against it in relation to value, effectiveness, and neighbor awareness...'

----------

