# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  Gibson F-9, Guitar Center - Help?

## MikeZito

Sometime in the past few hours, Guitar Center has listed a used 2004 Gibson F-9 on their website (no photo yet) for $2100.  If it is still there when I get off work, I'm going to check it out.  

Apart from he usual set-up type stuff, any advice on what the keep a specific eye out for on something like this?  (I have only had the opportunity to play 3 Gibson's in my life, and 2 have been Lloyd Loar's - so my Gibson experience has been limited, and skewed.)

Thanks.

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Well, when it sounds like any of those two Loars, go for it. 
Seriously, I'd suggest to look for any open seams and cracks in the body, neck/head stock, head stock scroll, nut, bridge and machine head buttons.
Press down a string at two points (as a ruler) to check for a (fairly) straight neck. Just looking down the neck is sometimes not enough. An ever so slight relief should be fine. In the case of more relief, can it be adjusted with the truss rod? In two recent Ferns I found the truss rod to be hardly working at all. 
Also, in some Gibsons I found a bump around the 15th fret. A turn of the truss rod seemed to have made this even worse.
Is the bridge well fitted to the top or lifting up somewhere? Is there room enough to adjust the bridge both ways up and down? 
Is there any buzz, possibly due to a nut slot filed too low or any other cause?
Is the tail piece cracked anywhere? (more of an '80s/'90s problem)

And if you like the sound, you may have a good one there.

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DataNick, 

MikeEdgerton

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## jaycat

That's a good price if it checks out.

(Sorry about your rough weekend - confirmed Nats fan here.)

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## MikeZito

I have told this story on another thread, but the first Lloyd Loar that I played was back around 2003. It was for sale at a music store directly across the street from where I work, and was (comparatively) very inexpensive (maybe $25,000);  but it was horrible - essentially unplayable.   The 2nd one formerly belonged to New England bluegrass legend Joe Val, it it was a nice as it should be.  (I was playing a Rigel R-100 Custom at the time, so I knew quality.)

Hopefully this F-9 will be more comparable to the 2nd Loar than the 1st one.

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## JeffD

I have liked the sound of the few F-9s I have played. Very nice instrument.

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## Northwest Steve

The pictures are up, but very poor. Still it looks in decent shape. If the playability and sound are good it is a good deal, if not?
You are tempting fate by posting on the café. More than one mandolin has disappeared after being mentioned here.

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## mee

Love my F-9. Good thing about guitar center is you can return it if you don't like it, usually 30 days I think unless it is vintage and only get 3 days.
I see they have one of those 1970's Gumby mandolin  :Laughing:

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## J.Albert

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/Gib...le-Mandolin.gc

Looks to be from the production period just before the flood.

Pictures aren't the best, but one can zoom in a bit and it looks to be in pretty good shape. There's a little wear on the back near the lower point.

The price is nearly as good as you'll find on one of these.

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## DataNick

Mike,

Good intentions but you did take a risk posting on this site.

There is this thing called a telephone and all a person (dealer likely) has to do is pick up the phone call and buy it with credit card on a slight gamble; get it in-house, set-it up and voila it will be on the classifieds for $2800-$3000...hope you get it first...YMMV

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## multidon

It might be the lighting, but it looks to me like someone buffed the matte finish to a semi gloss. I don't like the he look but some do, obviously. 

Nice flame on the back. Some of these I've seen are plainer than plain.

Note that it is listed in "good" gondition. There could be scratches, scrapes, dents, etc. that are not showing up in the lousy photos. That said, it is probably a low risk purchase since they have such a liberal return policy.

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## MikeEdgerton

I wouldn't expect that to last too long.

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## Josh Levine

You get 30 days with used gear. Buy it and take it to a professional. Good luck on getting it before someone else on here does.

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## dhergert

The GC definition of "GOOD" condition:

"
This product is completely functional and shows some signs of use.  
It may have surface scratches and/or dings and dents.
"

According to the factory specifications, these instruments have a thin lacquer finish which I can attest is easily marred by any hard or sharp object.  Having a 2002 model which displays plenty of honest wear, I would imagine this condition description is a kind way of saying "rustic" looking.  That said, mine and the handful of other F9s that I've seen and heard all have that characteristic Gibson F5 tone and power.  If this F9 is in fact intact and "fully functional", it is a pretty remarkable price too, especially coming from GC.

Hmmm, too bad, if that one picture of the body had been at a slightly different angle, we could have read the serial number on the generic Master Model label.

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## mee

There's an A-9 in the classifieds now if you want to save some cash. But that F-9 sure would be nice for ya  :Wink:  

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/110266#110266

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## Charles E.

And it's gone. That did not take long. The A-9 that is.

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## MikeZito

Quick update:

I just got back from giving the above F9 a test drive . .  . and the eight words that best describe the experience are:_ "A waste of two hours of my life."_

To be brief - the playability and sound were worse than my son's off-the-rack Rogue.   I may be exaggerating, but it almost looked like somebody covered over the original satin finish with a spray can of high-gloss Rust-Oleum.  Even with the bridge all the way down, the action was high and stiff.  One of the 'A' strings was buzzing like crazy, and would not stay in tune for more than 1 second - so, I am guessing that there was a a problem with the nut.  At a quick glance, the neck looked a little funky, but not too bad.   As I sat and quickly looked it over, I almost began to wonder if it was a fake - but I was so disgusted by the whole experience that I didn't stay to examine it further, and was in and out of the store in no more than 5 minutes. The only positive thing about the mandolin was that it came with a nice strap!  

With a price tag of $2100, I MIGHT have considered buying it . . . if they gave me a 90% discount!

So - the hunt continues . . . .

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## Troy Engle

> Quick update:
> 
> I just got back from giving the above F9 a test drive . .  . and the eight words that best describe the experience are:_ "A waste of two hours of my life."_
> 
> To be brief - the playability and sound were worse than my son's off-the-rack Rogue.   I may be exaggerating, but it almost looked like somebody covered over the original satin finish with a spray can of high-gloss Rust-Oleum.  Even with the bridge all the way down, the action was high and stiff.  One of the 'A' strings was buzzing like crazy, and would not stay in tune for more than 1 second - so, I am guessing that there was a a problem with the nut.  At a quick glance, the neck looked a little funky, but not too bad.   As I sat and quickly looked it over, I almost began to wonder if it was a fake - but I was so disgusted by the whole experience that I didn't stay to examine it further, and was in and out of the store in no more than 5 minutes. The only positive thing about the mandolin was that it came with a nice strap!  
> 
> With a price tag of $2100, I MIGHT have considered buying it . . . if they gave me a 90% discount!
> 
> So - the hunt continues . . . .


There was a rash of fake F-9's popping up, it's a possibility.  The guys at GC would be hard pressed to tell if it's a fake.  Update:  After looking at the pics, it doesn't look like one of those fake F-9's to me.  Those were just the dark brown finish ones, not the sunburst like this one.

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## MikeEdgerton

That's a real F9, like most things it probably just needs to be setup. Barring serious damage most of what folks see as disasters aren't. It's OK to not want to buy something. Somebody will buy that thing and enjoy it.

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Mandobar

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## dhergert

Regarding the GC F9 in question, it sounds from your description of the action like there may be a problem, or perhaps a "repaired" problem, with the dovetail neck joint.  As you know, the action should not be that bad with the bridge all the way down.  And the buzzing would also be disconcerting; did that appear to be related to heavily used fretwork (ruts)?  

As an owner of an earlier 2002 F9 I can say the factory-original fit and finish of mine were at least somewhat rustic.  I'm the second owner of my F9 and like me, the first owner contributed some honest wear-and-tear, but there still remain some original "marks of the maker" details that are not at all as polished as some similar details on other even less-expensive mandolins that I've seen.  

This GC F9 having been previously owned, the cause of the "high-gloss Rust-Oleum" effect may never be fully understood.  I know my F9 top's satin finish has become polished by gentle and consistent wear, although there are some significant finish differences between the 2002 F9 models and the later F9 models with the sunburst finish.

Related to buzzing, the previous owner of my F9 liked seriously high action.  When I brought the action down to my playable range, there was noticeable fret buzz, so I had to level and dress the frets.  Also, the original nut broke on my F9, so I replaced that with a nicer bone nut.  Currently playability, tone and volume are very good with this instrument.

The functional issues you've observed with this particular GC F9 would have also been disappointing to me.  Some of these issues may be setup related, but I'd also be particularly concerned that there is not sufficient bridge adjustment space and I'd want to have a close look at the fit and finish of the external neck joint area for signs of repair or detachment.  Questions about this kind of detail may be the reason that this mandolin has not sold yet.

I hope you find something that plays well, sounds great and pleases your eye!

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DataNick

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## Dave Hanson

I tried out 2 F9s before I bought the one I have, the first one sounded like a Far Eastern plywood box, the second one, which I bought was the cheapest of the 2 and sounds and plays like you would expect a Gibson to sound, brilliant.

You must try before you buy, they are not all good ones.

Dave H

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## MikeZito

Don: My guess is that the buzz is not from fretwork, simply because only one of the 'A'-strings is buzzing, and it is buzzing all the way up and down the neck - so I would be willing to bet it is a nut issue.  As you mentioned, the fact that there is no amount of space for bridge adjustment was the last and deciding factor in running away from the instrument.   Finding something that _"plays well, sounds great and pleases your eye"_ would be a dream come true!

Dave: Unfortunately, try before you buy is almost impossible in my area - but I am very glad that I made the 2 hour round trip, otherwise, (even though I could easily have returned it), it would have been a huge disappointment to have such high expectations, and end up with such a poor instrument.

Mike: Although the F9 is probably real, the overwhelming problems with the instrument are, unfortunately, just as real.  Two of the salesmen at the store told me that the mandolin has gotten _'lots of attention'_ since it came in . . . but so far it remains on the shelf, despite the excellent price.   

My guess is that this was once an fine instrument, but somebody who knew next to nothing about instruments and/or mandolins tried to 'customize it' and/or do a set up, and simply ruined it.  The mandolin could probably be brought back to life again - but considering that it is not a 'classic' instrument, and that it has a $2,100 price tag, plus figuring in the the amount of money it would cost to have it fixed, it would probably be much smarter to simply buy one that is not already a wreck, and save yourself the time and hassle.

A very sad story, indeed.

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## MikeEdgerton

And again, I'm still guessing it needs a decent setup. I'm going to guess that the vast majority of vintage mandolins that come out from under beds after decades come out in the same condition. I don't think many mandolins are total losses due to a setup being done by an inexperienced person. I just don't think it's a total loss. I'm not saying it doesn't have issues.

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## multidon

This has been an extremely entertaining discussion to follow. We saw a Gibson F9 come up for sale at a price seemingly too good to be true. One of our members checks it out and it's a dog. Then several of our members say it probably just needs a set up. So many folks here are such die hard Gibson fans (except for the 70's of course, that's the exception) that it seems to me like they think it's impossible for Gibson to make a bad instrument. They go on and on in seeming endless discussion threads about how wonderful the luthiers there were, and are, and I have read numerous discussions singing the praises of the F9. Well, someone checked it out personally and has judged it as lacking. In other words, a dog. But Gibson can't produce a dog. It is beyond the realm of possibilities. So the only possible conclusion is, it must be the set up!

Isn't it possible that, once in a blue moon, Gibson might actually make a bad instrument? And they sell it anyway, knowing somebody will buy it, if for no other reason than it says "Gibson" on the headstock? Because they're a business. If one turns out not so great, do they take a bandsaw to it? Or sell it regardless of how it turns out?

There can be all sorts of theories about why this one is not so hot. It needs a set up, someone fooled around with it, yadda yadda yadda. But sometimes,  a dog is just a dog. Anyone can make a bad instrument. Even the mighty G, I suspect.

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## MikeEdgerton

> In other words, a dog. But Gibson can't produce a dog.


Sure they can. So can Bruce Weber, I'm sure he created hundreds. So can Bill Collings. So can Steve Gilchrist. I'm sure Mike is a nice guy and has serious mandolin chops but I'm just not ready to write it off as a disaster, totally worthless because one member didn't like what they saw. There are people here that have made a living buying real disasters, doing the setup and re-selling them. To be honest I've never played a Weber or Collings or Givens that did anything for me. Do I think they are all disasters? Nope, I think they probably weren't setup to my liking. It's that simple. I agree, anyone can make a dog but I'm of the opinion that with a little work every dog can bark. It's really OK to not like a mandolin.

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## MikeZito

> I'm sure Mike is a nice guy _and has serious mandolin chops_


Mike - you're a smart guy with a lot to contribute to all of us  . . . buy, wow, are you WAY off on that one!

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## MikeEdgerton

You're not a nice guy? I refuse to believe that. You have to be, you're a Mets fan.

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## MikeEdgerton

Just to put this all into perspective, the more instruments you build the better you should be come at doing what you're doing but, it also increases the chances of creating a less than optimum instrument, a dog as it has been called. I obviously don't have production numbers but guessing from the number of known employees I'm pretty confident that Weber's output was greater than Gibson and Collings in the last few years when it comes to mandolins. The more you make the more chances you have for the clunker. With that said, I'd still put up any of those three over most of the inexpensive models that are being sold. I don't know what it is that they have but they have it. I prefer a Rogue mandolin to the latest Gretsch mandolins I played (at a GC) but you can set those things up until the cows come home, put them in front of your stereo speakers and blast the latest Death Tongue CD at them for the next 30 years and they aren't going to sound better than the mentioned manufacturers do. That's why I'm not real quick to dismiss a Gibson, or a Weber, or a Collings etc. as being a disaster.

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## colorado_al

> That's why I'm not real quick to dismiss a Gibson, or a Weber, or a Collings etc. as being a disaster.


Only one way to find out. You should buy it and let us know how it is after you set it up. :Popcorn:

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MikeZito

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## MikeEdgerton

After you guys beat the price down I probably will. At this rate that thing will sell for $200.00 to some lucky buyer.

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## multidon

And it's gone.

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## MikeZito

Ah Hah!   Al, you were right - Mike really did buy the mandolin!   Can't wait to hear sound samples - once he has finished the set-up!

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## MikeEdgerton

I was going to joke and say I bought it but I'm guessing somebody else here got it. They have 30 days to return if they aren't happy if I remember JWalterWeatherman's post from earlier in the thread. Not really a gamble.

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## George R. Lane

I have had the chance to play two Gibson Loars, one being Reischmans and one at Greg Boyds. Now I am not as accomplished as most of the pickers here on the Café, but I feel I know what sounds good and what doesn't. Reischmans was a joy to play, the one a Greg's wasn't, even Greg agreed. So any builder can build a poor instrument every once in awhile. None of us except Mike Zito has seen this F9, maybe it does need a good setup or not we don't know. So until someone else chimes in on the condition of this F9, let's not jump to any conclusions. Just my 2 cents.

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## DataNick

Assuming the neck has not had a reset/repair, sounds like setup issues to me.

You be amazed MikeZito what a good luthier can do via a "Pro" setup to make a mandolin come alive. My luthier charges about $100 for a "Pro" set-up.

If I had the pancakes, I'd do the $2100 just for a look-see; first I'd send over a real experienced mando guy/luthier to assess it though...

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## almeriastrings

My main concern if encountering something with a seriously high action even if the bridge is down well would be a neck-joint failure. That can be the result of stuff like someone keeping it in a hot car trunk or under other adverse environmental condition. It can be fixed, of course, but it would affect value as it is not a cheap fix. One to check for whenever buying used instruments.

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DataNick

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## Mandobar

There's a shop in Guilford that sells Collings, Eastman and has some nice used stuff that actually has a luthier (one of the best in the business) who does setups.  So try before you buy is extremely possible.

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## MikeZito

I guess all we can do now is to wait and see if some Cafe' member posts his new purchase . . . or wait and see if it shows up again as a return on the Guitar Center website . .  . or, we may never know.

p.s. - I checked the G.C. website - it says that there is a 45 day return on instruments, unless it is listed as a 'vintage' piece - then the return period plummets to 3-days . .  . so if you are going to buy a Lloyd Loar F5 from Guitar Center, make up your mind FAST!

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## multidon

Those of you who are interested in Gibson F9s should check out HoGo's (Adrian's) new thread in the Builder and Repair forum about his overhaul of a pre-flood F9. It was taken to him because of a failing neck joint. As he got into the work, he discovered a number of other problems. I will let the thread speak for itself, but suffice to say the thing was full of sloppy "workmanship". And this is not the first time I have heard stories of faulty work on F9's. Neck joint failures seem to be common (admittedly, anecdotal evidence only). Elderly had one for sale a while back. It was listed as "excellent"condition but it clearly had that tell-tale line developing between the neck and the button, a precursor to a neck joint failure in my opinion. It was snatched up very quickly though.

I know those F9's have their fans. But if the one Adrian has been working on is typical, one has to wonder how many more like that are out there. The neck joint failure brought it to him, but then he found lots of other stuff that nobody but an expert would notice. When you buy an instrument, how many of you check to make sure the plates are carved symmetrically on the inside? Or that the plates are making proper contact with the kerfing? Or that there's no putty in the dovetail joint? Nobody does any of that. All we care about is how does it sound, how does it play, how does it feel. When it comes to workmanship, we just trust the reputation of the maker. And the kind of faults I read about in Adrian's posts? I believe things like that would never see the light of day coming from Collings or Weber.

I am not trying to be a "Gibson basher" I assure you. I own a modern Gibson acoustic guitar and it, like every guitar I have played from the Montana shop, is spectacular. That Montana shop has really got it going on. But I have just read too many stories of poor workmanship in Nashville, and that includes their guitars. I apologize in advance if I stepped on any toes here. But it does make you think about how many different ways hidden faults can find ways to get into your instrument.i think that, if I ever did consider buying a Gibson mandolin, it would have to be vintage, from a era where there was still pride in making a fine quality product.

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Charles E., 

DataNick

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## MontanaMatt

> ...To be honest I've never played a Weber or Collings or Givens that did anything for me.


I've played many a Gibson that underwhelmed me :Wink: . From all timeframes.  The Montana shop stinks up the whole north side of our town too...I fear for the health of those workers

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## JeffD

A parallel perspective from my own experience. I think there is an opportunity when really nice higher end mandolins are available at reasonable prices at a Guitar Center. It is not that they don't know what they are selling, not at all. Or that the instrument is compromised. 

These guys are pros. Its that they know their clientele. The high end mandolin is not their normal stock, has little appeal for their normal customers, and the customers of high end aren't going to be stopping into a Guitar Center any time soon. So its taking up space till it sells, and they are more than content take their bit and move it along. 

The internet has likely confused my explanation a bit, I wonder if something like this doesn't happen more often than not.

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## JeffD

How a nice higher end used mandolin gets to Guitar Center in the first place has to be a kind of sad story. A divorce where the non musical recently-ex-spouse just wants to get rid of it. Or dealing with an estate, or an inheritance, where the family does not know and is not interested.

- - - Updated - - -

Or I have entirely misunderstood the situation.  :Redface:

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## MikeZito

I know a worker at a local G.C.   To make a long story short, he said that G.C. takes in lots of high-priced and vintage instruments, but they often do not last long because there are 'brokers' all over the country who have buyers lined up for that kind of stuff - hence the fact that you rarely see the stuff in the stores, or on line.   Apparently, several months ago the local store took in a 1930's F-5, and because the brokers were on it like buzzards, it was gone in less than 24 hours - the everyday customer never had a chance.

The same is pretty much true of high-priced new instruments - they normally only end up in areas or big cities where that kind of money is most-likely spent.   You can find a $15,000 Martin in Boston, but don't look for one in Tinyville.

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DataNick

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## Mandobar

They move their stock around, just like other retail stores (Goodwill even does this.  It's just good business).  Sometimes you will see the same instrument move through several stores as people purchase it and it is then returned to their local store.  There are so many instruments out there for sale, and retail stores are designed to move inventory.  The Portland, Maine store is a haven for higher end electric guitars, which is partly due to the clientele that frequent that store and the managers there.

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