# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  Gibson F12

## red7flag

I saw a Gibson F12 at Janet Davis website for sale for approx. 7k.  This seemed like a lot.  I was wondering if any of you Gibby afficiados could enlighten us on this model?

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## allenhopkins

Here's what the *Vintage Guitars informational website* has to say about the F-12:


Available: 1934 to 1980

1934 F-12 specs:
2 point Asymmetrical body, "F" holes, single bound top, back, pickguard, no point on pickguard at body point, single bound fingerboard with treble side extension, fingerboard raised off of top, scroll type inlays, single bound peghead, 2 handled vase and curlicues peghead inlay, pearl tuner buttons, gold plated parts, red mahogany sunburst top finish, deep red back and sides.
F-12 discontinued 1937.
1948 F-12 Re-introduction specs:
Point on pickguard, clamshell tailpiece, mahogany neck, longneck, bound rosewood fingerboard with square end, fingerboard flush with top, dot inlays, unbound peghead, crown peghead inlay, small peghead, Cremona brown sunburst top finish, uniform brown back and sides.
1959 F-12 specs:
Wriggle-edge tailpiece, fingerboard raised off top, larger peghead.
1970 F-12 specs:
Treble side fingerboard extension, smaller peghead, single bound peghead, fleur-de-lis peghead inlay, "The Gibson" script logo.
F-12 discontinued 1980.

If you're asking about *this one* that J Davis is selling, it's a reissue of the later style of F-12 -- scroll, raised fingerboard, dark sunburst finish, non-pointed pickguard, and with the standard current Gibson tailpiece rather than the clamshell.  It has the straight-across "Gibson" script logo, which is more characteristic of '30's models than of the later '40's F-12's, which probably would have had the block "Gibson" inlay.  And I'm not sure if the later F-12's had gold hardware.  The '40's model came with a fingerboard flush with the top and no "Florida" extension, also.

This appears to be one of those Gibson reissues that "evokes" the original F-12, with out being totally scrupulous as to the details.  Is it worth $7K?  Well, how's it sound?  It's a good-looking mandolin, for sure.  However, "reissue" esthetics aside, the proof's in the picking.  Sometimes it's a bit frustrating when Gibson builds a "commemorative" or "reissue" instrument that differs in a number of details from the original, but that's sorta irrelevant in terms of what kind of musical instrument you get.

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## red7flag

Thank you Allen.  Great information.  Exactly what I was looking for.

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allenhopkins

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## f5loar

Another attempt to make a "reissue" of something that is not the same as the original.  I've picked on right many prewar F12s and never found one with a long neck.  While I can understand the reason to go with a long neck version of the prewar F12 and other modifed areas such as fretboard extension why not just call it something else like an F15?  Or is that a jet number?

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John Soper

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## journeybear

When I got my F-12 in 1978, my understanding was that it was a "poor man's F-5" - that is, similar in construction but less expensive woods, less fancy ornamentation (hardly any inlay). The description at Janet Davis' site differs from that, but what do I know? I'm no expert, just a former owner.  :Wink:  Anyway, it had the changes mentioned in the 1970 redesign, but the serial number places it in 1966.  This is the best picture I have of it, and despite the less-than-perfect image quality, you can see it had the angled Gibson logo, fleur-de-lis inlay, fingerboard extension (mostly obscured by my hand), and gold colored hardware.

The one at Janet Davis seems to include various styles, which I don't understand. If it's supposed to be a 75th anniversary, you'd think it would emulate the 1934 model exactly. Isn't that the point?  :Confused: 

Sorry - can't seem to upload this as a thumbnail so it can be enlarged.

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## AlanN

Does sound like a lot to ask for that mandolin. 

I had a '49 F-12 for a while. Heavy, fingerboard glued to the top, thuddy tone, even with fresh strings. Was nice to look at.

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## Darryl Wolfe

I find it curious that Gibson would actually make a false statement regarding the original construction

The carved solid spruce top and figured maple back and rims lent the F-12 a blend of cut and sweetness that could compete with any mandolin of the day, *while its long-neck design offered supreme playability*.

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## Fretbear

Yuck.......

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## journeybear

A good tip-off that authenticity isn't paramount in such situations is the use of such marketingese phrases as "proud to honor the legacy" and "holds true to its ancestors’ heritage." There's more wiggle room in that language than terms such as "exact" and "precise" and, well, "authenticity."  :Wink: 

Why does the Gibson site not give prices on instruments, even MSRP? Or did I not look in the right place?

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## allenhopkins

An interesting and ongoing issue with the recent Gibson "reissues."  They mention the name of the earlier model mandolin, giving the impression that you're buying a re-creation of the 1948-80 F-12, _e.g.,_ but there are so many differences in detail that what you're buying is basically a new design.  It's an instrument that *looks* like the earlier F-12 from across the room, but when you get up close, it has multiple differences.  Doesn't stop it from being a great instrument -- if it is -- but it calls up comments like the ones above.  I agree: make it the F-13, or the F-12B, or something similar.  It may well be a great mandolin for the price, once you sit down and play it, but real Gibson aficionados have trouble getting past the "that's not an F-12, because of x, y, z" stage.

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## Capt. E

In the end, Gibson is out to make money and that doesn't always lend itself to the best decisions. Sometimes the marketing people stir things up and muddy things. In my business, I always have to keep in mind that a retreat is usually bad and kills business momentum. I have always thought a new model is usually better than a re-issue. Look at the Jam Master as an example. Great mandolin at a great price.

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## Willie Poole

I had a 1950 F-12 that was a great mandolin and in my opinion when the later (1970) F-12`s came out they were junk and ruined the reputation of the earlier F-12`s....Thats why when an F-12 is mentioned on here some say "Yuk"....Mine had some things a little different from the descriptions that Allen posted, mine had a raised fingerboard and the serial number said it was a `50 and that was agreed to by John Duffey...perhaps Vintage instruments doesn`t know all there is to know about all mandolins....

    Willie

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## Gary Hedrick

Now let's not bash Gibson too much on this one.....

I thought the attempt was to remake a prewar F12 but go ahead and put the longer neck on it to make it a more playable instrument, like they should have in the 30's had they not been trying to use up F4 necks to save money.

As for playing a lot of prewar F12's, I thought that they only made 3 or 4 of them....Yes????

The late 40's and early 50's F12's were not too bad.....the later ones....junk but hey Gibson is making these and the buyer can decide if they want to spend their money.  I'm sure they are a lot better sounding instrument than most of the F12's out there right now.

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## allenhopkins

> I had a 1950 F-12 that was a great mandolin....Mine had some things a little different from the descriptions that Allen posted, mine had a raised fingerboard and the serial number said it was a `50 and that was agreed to by John Duffey...perhaps Vintage instruments doesn`t know all there is to know about all mandolins....


Well *here's* a 1950 F-12 at Greg Boyd's, and they say that its raised fingerboard was a Randy Wood conversion: "Mr. Wood also vaulted the fingerboard over the Spruce top."  On the other hand, *here's* an F-12 ID'ed as a 1952, with a raised fingerboard.  And again, *here's* a 1949 F-12 with a square-end, flush fingerboard.  So you tell me.

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## f5loar

Seems many here are confusing a prewar F12 with a postwar F12.  They were trying to recreate the prewar F12 which is a totally different animal then a postwar F12.  Can someone post a photo of a real un-feathered prewar F12 for comparsion?

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## journeybear

Believe it or not, I don't see any pre-war F-12s at the Mandolin Archive or _any_ at Alan Bond's museum.  :Confused:  So cross those sites off your list if you're looking for a pic.

I rather liked my F-12 even if it was from the era which some consider junk. It did take a LOT of playing for it to sound good, but after that I enjoyed it tremendously for a quarter century or more, and would love to have it back. I'm not about to say it doesn't compare to an F-5, and in some ways even my plain A is a better instrument. But blanket statements like that irk me. Still, I'm not gonna make a major issue of this, as I'd rather keep the thread more or less on track.  :Wink:

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## Fretbear

Pre-war (1934) short-necked F-12;

http://www.mandozine.com/index.php/i...son_f_12_1934/

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## allenhopkins

> Seems many here are confusing a prewar F12 with a postwar F12.  They were trying to recreate the prewar F12 which is a totally different animal then a postwar F12.  Can someone post a photo of a real un-feathered prewar F12 for comparsion?


Christie's Auctions says *this* is one.

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## Spencer

> Christie's Auctions says *this* is one.


If a real version of a rare instrument sells for 6500$, is a new remake worth the same, or was the auction price too low?

Nate Bray played a 50's F-12 that had a really sweet tone, and I had one for a while, which was a decent instrument.  

Spencer

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## journeybear

Here's the text from the Mandozine example: 

PERHAPS THE RAREST OF ALL Gibson Artist’s model mandolins is the pre-war, short-necked F-12. Introduced in 1933 (with similar models F-7 and F-10), the F-12 had an elevated fingerboard, fancy inlays, an attractive red mahogany sunburst finish on its top and deep red finish on its flamed maple back and sides, along with gold-plated hardware. The lightly finished mahogany neck joined the body at the 12th fret (like the earlier F-2s and F-4s), placing the bridge “incorrectly” lower on the body than on the Master Model F-5. One wonders why this was done (perhaps to use up a number of left-over F-4 neck blanks). Discountinued by 1937, this model is quite rare, and this example is one of the very few in existence. The F-12 designation was revived in 1949 and was in production until 1980, but the later version was very different from its predecessor in almost every respect.

What gets me is that last sentence. If you're going to produce a model _that_ different, why not give it a different model name? What about F-6 through F-11? They're available, right? Why did they ever go all the way out to F-12 anyway? I'm sorry if this question has already been posed and answered before. I'm just seeing red right now - sort of a red mahogany sunburst, actually.  :Wink: 

Below are the item from the Christie's auction and the new 75th anniversary model. What struck me immediately is the auction item does not have a clamshell tailpiece cover. I'm sure there are other distinctions. Like the neck length. They did do a nice job recreating the inlay, though.

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## f5loar

Nate did quite well on his 50's F12.  There were dozens of other pros that started out at least with a 50's F12 but who was the only bluegrass pro to hold onto a prewar F12 in his long career?

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## Fretbear

John Humbird Duffey;

http://www.bluegrass-museum.org/gene...JohnDuffey.php

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## allenhopkins

1.  Did Duffey re-neck his F-12?  It definitely seems to have a longer scale.

2.  I wasn't aware that it was a '30's model.  Guess I assumed it was a re-worked late-'40's.  Several of the articles about Duffey mention that he had the F-12 set up with such high action, that others had trouble playing it.

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## AlanN

Yep, he put the long neck on, finished carving the top. It is a 1938. I played that F-12 several years ago (graciously handed to me by the current owner). It had some sort of fiberglass wedge on the top, to cover a worn-through area. It was a thrill to play.

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## D C Blood

That Christie's mando sure looks like an F-7 to me.   What's the difference between the short-necked F-12 and the F-7 ???  I know some of the F-7s had aluminum tuning keys...anything else?

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## allenhopkins

> That Christie's mando sure looks like an F-7 to me.   What's the difference between the short-necked F-12 and the F-7 ???  I know some of the F-7s had aluminum tuning keys...anything else?


F-7's had the squared-off fingerboard, fleur-de-lys inlay on the headstock, less elaborate fingerboard inlays, silver- rather than gold-plated hardware.  *Here's* an excellent set of F-7 photos.

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## re simmers

I have a '74 F12 that was in fantastic shape and played nice.  But it was dead.   I just got it back from Randy Wood about 3 weeks ago.   Unbelievable difference.   It is a fantastic sounding mandolin.

Bob

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## lenf12

> I have a '74 F12 that was in fantastic shape and played nice.  But it was dead.   I just got it back from Randy Wood about 3 weeks ago.   Unbelievable difference.   It is a fantastic sounding mandolin.
> 
> Bob


Hey Bob,

Congratulations on having Randy Wood perform his "magic" on your F-12. You did the right thing by having the work done, especially on a '74 which look good but generally sound pretty bad. 

I got my '56 back from him in June '08 and it's still getting better all the time. Pre-Randy it got "good" sounding after about an hour of steady pounding but never was very loud. It would need to be woken up every day and sounded like it was stuffed with cotton socks. Since the revoicing job, it is much louder and has developed that mature Gibson sound. Randy told me on the phone that it would sound like Sam B's "Hoss" and he was right on that count (even though I don't use the Sam B strings. I tried a set and didn't like their "thuddy" sound). 

IMHO - the post war F-12's can be great sounding in their own right or can be helped along with the help of Randy Wood. As far as pre-war F-12's are concerned, I would not alter one and sacrifice the collector's value. They are what they are!! I think that Gibson is doing it right by reissuing a new take on the pre-war F-12. The visual appointments look authentic from across the picking circle but the long neck gives it more playability and the voice of a good F-5.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## wsugai

> If you're asking about *this one* that J Davis is selling, it's a reissue of the later style of F-12 -- scroll, raised fingerboard, dark sunburst finish, non-pointed pickguard, and with the standard current Gibson tailpiece rather than the clamshell.


Unless I'm reading the copy incorrectly, it's never characterized as a reissue. It is characterized as an "anniversary model," which, in this case, means that the closest original issue model was the F-12. Pure marketing, but then again, how many flavors of F-5 have we seen over the years?

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## allenhopkins

> Unless I'm reading the copy incorrectly, it's never characterized as a reissue. It is characterized as an "anniversary model," which, in this case, means that the closest original issue model was the F-12. Pure marketing, but then again, how many flavors of F-5 have we seen over the years?


I agree that you're technically correct, but the copy also is full of phrases about "honoring the legacy" and "period-correct details''; "cut to original specs," "period-correct mahogany neck," "holds true to its ancestor's heritage," "honor...the original model of the mid-1930's." The finish, peghead shape and inlay, etc., are described as identical or similar to the '30's F-12.  I think Gibson's trying to have it both ways: to take one of their standard F-5's, give it somewhat different finish and inlay, call it an "F-12," and market it to people who will think they're getting a re-creation of the rare and valuable '30's F-12.  In the past, the F-5 and the F-12 were different models, easily distinguished.  So in what respect besides finish and ornamentation, does this current "F-12" differ from one of the various F-5 models that Gibson's producing?

Seems to me -- please correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm no expert on contemporary Gibsons -- that they're producing what is basically the same mandolin in a variety of finishes, bindings and inlays, with a few distinctions (lack of fretboard extension, _e.g._ on certain models).  In what *fundamental construction aspects* does a Jam Master differ from an F-9, F-5G, and on up?  Radius fingerboard, presence/absence of the fingerboard extension -- is that it, and the rest is finishes and inlays and "this one has the more figured wood"?

*Not* being critical, *not* "Gibson bashing," just looking for information and enlightenment.

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## wsugai

> Seems to me -- please correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm no expert on contemporary Gibsons -- that they're producing what is basically the same mandolin in a variety of finishes, bindings and inlays, with a few distinctions (lack of fretboard extension, _e.g._ on certain models).  In what *fundamental construction aspects* does a Jam Master differ from an F-9, F-5G, and on up?  Radius fingerboard, presence/absence of the fingerboard extension -- is that it, and the rest is finishes and inlays and "this one has the more figured wood"?
> 
> *Not* being critical, *not* "Gibson bashing," just looking for information and enlightenment.


I inferred from Charlie Derrington's remarks in the interview that I read a while back (can't remember if it was in the Cafe or Mandozine) that Gibson puts as much structural work into a plain old F9 as they do in an F5 to meet the company's standards. He may not have said it outright, but the clear implication of his remarks is that the F-models are essentially built off the same pattern (with some model differences in bracing, neck profile, fingerboard, etc.) to the same structural standard. Maybe Joe can enlighten us here.

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## f5loar

I could see this more being a "John Duffy Signature Model" except John is not around to sign it.  Or maybe a "John Duffy Tribute Model F12" but a mid 30's F12 it ain't so why all the hype that it is?  Reminds me of when Ford reintroducted the new Thunderbird following the style and shape of the mid 50's Thunderbird.  NOT!
Since the mid 30's F12 was not exactly a popular selling mandolin for Gibson it would be like Ford coming out with an anniversary "Edsel" and expecting to sell a million of them. NOT!  The plus side is if it does play and sound like the current F5s then at least it will be a great sounding mandolin in the Gibson tradition.  I just don't see it out selling the new Fern.

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## TomJDMC

Hi Folks - Just came across this thread and noticed that nobody has mentioned what I consider the most unique feature of the F-12 Gibson is currently building; the F-12G and F-12 Anniversary models have a 1 3/16" mahogany necks with wide frets.  The rest is fairly standard; maple back and ribs, spruce top, top and back vintage binding, gold hardware.  I'll leave it up to ya'll to go back and forth about what gibson 'should be doing', but I will anti up my 2 cents and say that Mr. Harvey is putting out some _very_ impressive mandolins, and the mahogany neck adds a nice warm touch to the tone without getting too mellow.

I don't have a lot of personal experience with all the variations of the vintage F-12's, but for whats its worth, I had a older gentleman in his 80's in the store a few weeks ago and after showing him the F-12, he pulled out an 8x11 picture from a manila envelope of himself as a young man at an Air Force base in Tokyo holding his F-12 playing next to another young man sitting down holding his guitar with his eyes crossed.

He asked me "Do you know whats wrong with that guy?"

"I dunno, looks like he's not feeling too well."

"That's 'cause he's so drunk he can't stand, much less play that guitar."

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## mando-tech

My dealings with the F-12 are as follows: about 1991, I bought a used F-12, made in '67.  After giving $1100 for it, I sold it for $1250.  Now, that same instrument would  bring $3000, or more.  The instrument was difficult to deal with, but it seemed to "mic" well.  With the unbound peghead and block-lettered LOGO, it wasn't much to look at.  Also, the two back halves were horribly UN-matched!  I don't regret letting it go.

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## High Point Mando

I have just purchased one of the limited 75th anniversary f-12 mandolins from Dave. It is incredible. The Mahogany neck give the tone a little richer and warmer tone over the standard f-5s. it rings well and has no problem being heard. My opinion is that if you find one....it is well worth the investment. Dave told me he only made 10 of these. I love the look and I get alot of compliments when playing out......I'm the mandolin player for HighPoint Quartet. we play gospel bluegrass all around the South East and it gets around. i love it for that it doesn't look like the normal F-5 everyone has. I honestly like it better that the master model or the victorian. You wont see these often.....so they definitly stand out.

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## Jeff Mando

Here is a couple pics from a 1970 Gibson mandolin brochure that I had around, that show the F5 artist and the F12 artist side by side.  You will note the descriptions are reversed from the pics.  Quality control somewhat befitting of the Norlin era!

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## mrmando

> I have just purchased one of the limited 75th anniversary f-12 mandolins blah blah blah.


You know, you've posted the same announcement in five different places in the forum. Completely unnecessary.

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## Jeff Mando

Bumping an old thread to ask a question.

I recently saw a 1952 Gibson F-12 at a pawn shop for $2300.  It looked pretty nice, but I remembered this thread and the fact that most players don't get that excited about an F-12.  I see Elderly currently has a 1950 F-12 for $3600 for comparison.  $2300 seemed fair, but still a lot of money if there is no interest at resell time.  Or if it is a slow mover.  I'm sure if it were $1500 or so, I probably would have convinced myself to buy it, since you don't see that many Gibsons with a curley-cue at a pawn shop.  Any thoughts?

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## mrmando

Did you play it? Did it seem to handle well, have good tone & projection, etc.? I don't think I would spend $2300 unless I expected to be playing it for a while. You might be able to talk the shop owner down a bit. 

Akira Otsuka let me have a go at Duffey's F12 a couple of years ago and brother, it was difficult to play. I couldn't do much with it.

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## pheffernan

> Akira Otsuka let me have a go at Duffey's F12 a couple of years ago and brother, it was difficult to play. I couldn't do much with it.


I know of many players who prefer their ovals with the traditional 12th fret body join as opposed to what's often called the hybrid join at the 15th fret. Does anyone prefer their instruments with f-holes to have a 12th fret body join, whether it be with the F7/10/12 or the A00/40/50? Does anyone prefer the sound of Monroe on his F7 to his Loar?

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## Jeff Mando

> Did you play it? Did it seem to handle well, have good tone & projection, etc.? I don't think I would spend $2300 unless I expected to be playing it for a while. You might be able to talk the shop owner down a bit.


It seemed fine, but of course, it was the only mandolin there--nothing to compare it to.  I guess what I'm asking is, are 50's Gibson mandolins just an uninteresting time period (for Gibsons)?  If it were a 1952 F-5 would anybody care?  I guess I'm confused because 50's Gibson guitars are very sought after, both acoustic and electric.  I know there is a price that would make the mandolin interesting, but I'm afraid it would be lower than what the seller would accept.

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## Saxon Moreno

Hi everyone. I've been reading through all the threads I could find on F-12s over the last couple of weeks, as a good looking pre-war model has come up for auction round these parts. It was sold today - See https://www.bellmans.co.uk/sales/sus...view-lot/1270/

A few trawls online produced plenty of post-war examples, but no other examples of pre-war f-12s for sale. It has made me wonder, how many original (pre-war) F-12s were produced in total - does anybody know?

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## jimmy powells

The one that sold at Bellmans is the same one sold at Christies around the year 2000. Serial number the same. It was listed as an F1 but that was obviously an error. I did not buy it. My bid was too low.

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## William Smith

Not too many pre-war F-12's left original these days, I had a very nice 1935 all original but I recently swapped it! It was nothing special sounding but very nice looking and rare! I'd say there are less original 12's than the F-10's! Just from what I've came across in 20 odd years.

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## NickR

What did the mandolin sell for at the auction?

Edit: I see it states £5,500! At first glance the case looks to be American when in fact, it is a high quality British made case- the metalware and handle gives it away.

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## William Smith

The rare pre-war F-12's were expensive, only the F-5 cost more! Then the F-10 and the cheaper one was the F-7! The 10 and 12 had the same fancy inlays in the peg head and board and "Florida" extension, the 7 was elevated but the end squared off with Nick Lucus style board inlays and the fluer-di-lis in the peg head but latter got the same peg head inlay as the 10 and 12 "The urn type curlicue"  The 10 was all black, the 12 was a reddish top burst while the 7 had a brownish Cremona burst, the 12 had the gold plated hardware and same tuners as the period F-5, the early 10's and 12's had the ivoried tuner buttons, but later in about 36 they went to the metal buttons. 

The Harvey/Gibson 75th Anniversary 7, 10, and 12's looked just like the pre-war models but had the long 5 scale neck also in Mahogany but were all Sitka topped rather than Adirondack like the pre-war models-I do know of one newer F-7 with the Adirondack top. That's about all I know on these odd but great originals and anniversary models! I had an 09 Harvey F-10 that was very nice!

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## NickR

A mid-30s F12 is rare- and presumably extremely rare in the UK- and this one being an import when new. That £5,500 bid would attract a buyer's commission of 22% with VAT on that. That would be £1210 plus £242 VAT which is £1452, and there may be a charge for bidding online but with lockdown, that may be currently removed although that might be wishful thinking! So, that winning bid means the buyer has to pay nearly £7,000 for the mandolin before a packing and shipping charge is added.

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## Saxon Moreno

Must be incredibly rare in the Britain, and now possibly even rarer, as one of the late telephone bidders was from France.
 I was hoping for a "bargain" but got outbid fairly quickly. Bellman's clearly didn't know what they had on their hands as the estimated price was £400-600! But their marketing department must be better than their mandolin valuing as there were many bidders.

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## NickR

Most auction house sales- except from specialist auctions have risible valuations that are not based on real knowledge. The final bids are made by those with that knowledge and if two or three bidders really want the item, then the price escalates. I don't really know what an F12 from this era might be worth as they are so rare- I don't suppose this was a great bargain but there is nothing with which to make a comparison. I kick myself for not bidding on a 1935 Nick Lucas guitar that was on eBay a few years ago, which was a bargain it seems, although it was still expensive. Sadly, the seller's moronic reply to what I considered a very reasonable question made me stay away and nobody put in a bid. Had it been closer to home I would have been keen to look at it. By all accounts it had been in his family for decades- he said his family had run a music shop and he had once worked in it. I was tempted  to reply that given his invincible ignorance he had spent his time there sweeping the floor but I just ignored the auction.

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