# Music by Genre > Rock, Folk Rock, Roots Rock, Rockabilly >  Nickel Creek

## MandoCommando

I hear them on some public radio station in the mountains of North Carolina on a canoe trip. I looked into them a little more and &lt;bam&gt; now I'm a pretty big fan. Discussion?

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## phynie

Love em! And the fact that you posted this topic in the rock forum would lead me tothink you would really dig the new album. You can really hear the pop influence. I think it is great, but you will hear MANY different opinions.

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## MandoCommando

oops! Yeah, I totally just saw "folk" and clicked on it. I've listened to the first and the newest, but nothing in between yet. Don't worry, I'm workin' on it!

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## evanreilly

Them folks is good musicians, no doubt about that.
The are distancing from the 'bluegrass' fold and that is okay.
That boy is a purty good mandolin player, no doubt about that!

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## Larry S Sherman

I've been a fan for a long time, and just saw them live for my first time-amazing playing by Mr Thile. With him playing complex and incredibly fast and fluid lines appears effortless.

I really enjoy their sound, although they are hard to classify. "New Acoustic" perhaps? Chris has a tone that's recognizable anywhere and a virtuosity that's stunning. In my opinion he's one of the greats already.

I never got to see Jimi Hendrix, SRV, Miles Davis, or John Coltrane, Bill Monroe, etc. But with any luck I'll be able to see Thile continue to develop and produce amazing stuff for years to come.



Larry

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## MandoCommando

Yeah, I'm going to see them here in a few weeks over in Lexington... I can't wait to see that man play live.

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## ira

i can't go, but they are playing in boston tonight. some say dirivative, and that may be so, but i say truly innovative

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## Dfyngravity

nickel creek...nothin short of amazing. chris thile? who's that? is that the guy who plays that funny looking guitar thingy? no but really, chris thile is just a great musician, his knowledge of music surpasses most any great musician and that's one reason he is so good. although, sean and sara are two people that tend to rid in the shadow of thile, but realistically they are both incredible as well. just last night i was thinking to myself, what if chris thile would have stuck with guitar and sean watkins would have stuck with the mandolin? there's no doubt that nickel creek would still be famous, but we would instead be talking about the next great tony rice or something along those lines. and sean would have been just a monster on mando as well. he can play that thing pretty darn well too. it kind of makes me sick to listen to him play mando and chris play guitar....i want some of that talent, pass it down, don't hog it all!!

but anyways, nickel creek is great, i have been a fan for a very long time now, and i have seen them in concert about 7 times now, and i saw thile and edgar once which was mind blowing.

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## John Flynn

IMHO, Thile is technically brilliant, but Nickel Creek is generally aesthetically uninteresting, with the exception of a few tracks. With the new CD, NC has joined the vast wasteland of formulaic pop schlock.

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## ira

johnny, come on tell us how you really feel!

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## John Flynn

> johnny, come on tell us how you really feel!


OK, Thile needs a shave, a decent haircut and posture lessons too!

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## sbarnes

i'd like to hear thile play with his technique and the 'taste' of jethro.....
sean plays very well himself....
sara is kinda hot
i like 'em

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## aimee

But did they enjoy their canoe trip? Does Chris take along the dude, or his "beater" MM? Sorry, couldn't resist.

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## David Horovitz

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> johnny, come on tell us how you really feel!
> 
> 
> OK, Thile needs a shave, a decent haircut and posture lessons too!


Hey jflynnstl,

I'm not sure if you're just being a little sarcastic to get a rile out of people or if you're being sincere. Either way, I guess it doesn't really matter. It seems that for all the reasons you mention it's exactly why Chris is generally admired and has turned on a whole new generation of kids to the mandolin and acoustic music. Being technically brilliant, he gets people's attention for his musical talent and because he often looks desheveled and doesn't really care about 'dressing/cleaning up' while performing he appeals to a younger generation.

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## lucky23

saw them in Burlington on the 1st of October and Chris's energy on stage is wicked....he doesnt stop and to watch him play just blows your mind! I think the new cd for NC is excellent, if you have not bought it yet, you should! Chris is the main reason that I decided to learn how to play this beautiful instrument.

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## luckylarue

Yeah Johnny,

We all know you wear baggy cords and Simple shoes and have a poster of Thile in your practice room.

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## WJF

I've been listening to them forever (always enjoyed them) but just saw them for the first time this past Friday in NYC. I've seen lots of memorable concerts in my realatively long lifetime. This would have to have been one of the most impressive shows I've ever seen in any genre of music. The sophistication of the material, the complexity of the arrangements the virtuosity of each member of the band (instrumentally and vocally), the energy that just seemed to crackle and come off the stage, were all just totally mind bending. Count me as a HUGE fan!!!

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## ira

but is it bluegrass!

JUST JOKING- PLEASE DON"T FLAME, thile and co. always seem to bring up these queries, as if he couldn't and hasn't played every style of music imaginable.

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## fangsdaddy

hey johnny, just read in rolling stone that thile is doing a disc w/jack white. i KNOW you'll love that.....

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## John Flynn

> hey johnny, just read in rolling stone that thile is doing a disc w/jack white. i KNOW you'll love that.....


Well I take all back. He really has street creds now! Personal prediction: Thile will soon marry Rene Zellweger on the rebound from Kenny Chesney. Rene obviously has a thing for pop stars with one foot out of the closet.

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## Jeff Hoelter

Saw em last night here in Baltimore...really really good show. High energy, tight arrangements, a really nice overall show. Mark Schatz on bass doesn't hurt either! 

Tim O'Brien tomorrow at the Ram's Head in Annapolis!


Jeff

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## ira

fangsdaddy, is the jack white with thile thing true???
if so, though i don't own any of thile's cds i would be it. jack white's collaboration with loretta lynn is one of my fav. discs in the past bunch of years and i am not a country or white stripes fan- just a great blend of styles.

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## fangsdaddy

no ira it isn't. i wanted to pull johnny's chain a little. but i agree w/you on the loretta disc. 

hey johnny, what's this supposed to mean:
"Rene obviously has a thing for pop stars with one foot out of the closet."

btw, the phrase is "street cred" (no plural)

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## John Flynn

fangsdaddy:

Cred or creds? I've heard it and seen it in print both ways. And since when are correcting each others grammar and spelling on this site, especially when it comes to slang? What would be the point?

Well, I should think that someone like yourself with obvious street cred, or creds, would be able to figure the image out. Think Tom Cruise, think Liza's ex. You get the picture.

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## JEStanek

Johnny, Are you saying the single should be "When out in Rome?"

Even if it was, would it matter... should it? No and No.
Jamie

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## John Flynn

> "When out in Rome?"


 LOL!  

For the record, I agree, no and no. But hey, anything that's good for a laugh...

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## Ken Waltham

I'll probably really catch it for this, but I think Nickel Creek are really lame.
I caught them a couple of months ago on Austin City Limits, and, frankly, couldn't get through it. I turned them off.
Wonderful playing, but, after people see that you've mastered your instrument, now what? For these guys, nothing.
Grade school poetry lyrics, and mindless ####### on acoustic instruments is cool for about 2 minutes.
I know all the stuff about Thile's greatness, and you can't take it away from him. He was once in my room at IMBA trying out a mandolin, and played for at least two hours, never repeating a lick. But, for me, when I hear them, it's "so what?"
Give me Neil Young, Sprinsteen, The Band, they've something to say.

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## Larry S Sherman

I can see where you're coming from with the lyrical content. They definetly are still maturing, and although I love how they play, my mind hasn't been blown by any especially profound lyrics yet. 

However, comparing them to singer-songwriters like Neil Young, Bruce, or even Dylan is a tough comparison. Those guys are like Gods to me. Not many songwriters can stand up to their legacy from any genre. 

But if you compare them to the stupid empty pointless music that some of their peers are producing I think that they are definetly showing potential. I'm hoping that they eventually grow as songwriters to match their talent as players. I think that the latest CD shows them moving in that direction; the characters in the songs are more complex and multi-dimensional, and the songs are lyrically darker and more powerful.

And if you look at the instrumentals I think that they have done some remarkable work. Ode to a Butterfly, for example, will probably be a classic mando song and an inspiration for many future mando players to come. I would love to hear a completly instrumental CD from NC someday.

I guess we can wait and see. By the way, when I saw them on Oct 1st they covered the Band's "Cripple Creek", so maybe they agree with you?

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## Stephanie Reiser

> I'll probably really catch it for this, but I think Nickel Creek are really lame.


The Band, Neil Young, I don't know about Bruce, but Dylan...those folks were members of an upper plateau. Ken, like Larry said, they were like gods as far as lyrics are concerned. And musically, too. But also, like Larry said, as far as their peers are concerned they do fairly well. Maybe down the road they will mature lyric-wise. But I love much of their music. I too would love to hear an entire album of instrumentals by them. If you feel that their lyrics are grade-school, one could say the same about Bill Monroe, whom many feel is 'god-like'. I mean, "Blue Moon of Kentucky won't you keep on shinin',......" one could say the same about that, but I don't because it is a certain style. I tap my foot to it, but I dont own any Monroe albums. But I also dont refer to the music as "lame". It is what it is.
If you don't like NC, then fine. But Ken, I think that referring to Nickel Creek as "lame" is a little strong, and serves no purpose at all.

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## Ken Waltham

I knew this would ruffle some feathers, and music is very personal and subjective, so my opinion is only valid as my opinion.
I know what you're saying about Monroe... but, he still greatly interests me as an artist.
As for the others being "gods", well, perhaps I should have picked some of lesser stature. I used those artists as an example of someone, IMHO, who has a musical statement to make. 
All of those examples move me emotionally, even Monroe. I know it may not be the best lyrical content all the time, or the greatest fiddle break, or whatever, but, it's more than that. It's the sincerety, validity, emoting through the music, happy or sad that makes it relevant.
Heck, Mick Jagger and Keith Richards have written tons of great tunes, still great 40 years later.
Are there better singers than Mick? For sure, better guitar players than Keith, for sure, but there music is outstanding. It leaves you with something.
For me... and only for me, musical virtuousity can only take you so far. And believe me, Nickel Creek has that in spades.
After that, nothing about it interests me. I guess the originator was looking for discussion, and I feel they're kinda lame.

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## John Flynn

The Band? Dylan? Monroe? Sorry, but NC isn't even in the same league and what serves no purpose is even mentioning them in the same breath. NC and all it's members have a long, long way to go to be mentioned seriously in that company. I won't say they will never get there, but seriously I doubt it.

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## Stephanie Reiser

> I knew this would ruffle some feathers,


And that is why, when you noticed a thread about NC you decided to post - just to throw darts. Musical interests are very subjective. I see lots and lots of genres that I do not care about, being discussed here. But I would never be impolite and put down someone elses choices.

But, hey, at least we all agree that the mandolin is a great instrument.

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## Ken Waltham

Sorry, no, that's not at all why I decided to post. It's just my opinion, that's all. None of us like every band. 
I just don't get the fuss, that's all. This is not religion, it's music.

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## ShaneJ

Although I like to listen to Nickel Creek a lot, I do agree with Ken on the lyrics. I write really bad songs myself. Saying SOMETHING with stark simplicity ("Blue moon of Kentucky....", "In the twilight glow I see her.....", etc.) is VERY hard to do. NC's lyrics are often too wordy and flowery for me too. 

I just listen to the pickin' and don't pay much attention to the words.

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## Jestr

I've always felt that great lyrics were a kind of added bonus. I mean... if I can dig the music, who cares what they're saying. A prime example of this would be the Ugly Americans / Scabs, aweful lyrics almost all of the time, but d**m I can dig their grooves.

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## jefflester

A bunch of excellent pictures from 10-14-05 Atlanta show:
NC 10-14-05 pics

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## Andrew Reckhart

QUOTE ~ "I'll probably really catch it for this, but I think Nickel Creek are really lame.
I caught them a couple of months ago on Austin City Limits, and, frankly, couldn't get through it. I turned them off.
Wonderful playing, but, after people see that you've mastered your instrument, now what? For these guys, nothing.
Grade school poetry lyrics, and mindless ####### on acoustic instruments is cool for about 2 minutes.
I know all the stuff about Thile's greatness, and you can't take it away from him."

 ****** WHEW WEEE! #I LOVE IT! #COULDN'T AGREE MORE! #I ACTUALLY POSTED ALMOST THE EXACT SAME THING ABOUT A MONTH OR TWO AGO! #IT WAS ON ANOTHER ONE OF THESE PERPETUALLY REPETITIVE 'N.C.' THREADS. ******** #

QUOTE ~ "And that is why, when you noticed a thread about NC you decided to post - just to throw darts. Musical interests are very subjective. I see lots and lots of genres that I do not care about, being discussed here. But I would never be impolite and put down someone elses choices." #- ***** YOU JUST DID *****

 ***** I LOVE IT HOW THE 'CREEKSTERS' ASK FOR YOUR HONEST OPINION AND THEN FLAME YOU WHEN YOU DON'T AGREE WITH THEM. #IF YOU CAN'T TAKE THE NEGATIVE THEN DON'T ASK SUBJECTIVE QUESTIONS. #DON'T ASK FOR OTHER OPINIOS, JUST ASK FOR 'LIKE OPINIONS'. *****

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## beanbass

You don't have to like them, but to make a sweeping statement like "they're lame"? Thile IS a genius and if you can't see it, either:
A: You haven't listened to them closely.
B: His ideas are over your head.

Just my subjective opinion.

I also know some people who don't get The Beatles.

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## siren_20

I don't think that it's necessarily fair to say that NC's ideas are over anyone's head. I like their stuff because I have similar musical influences, and I like how they take a more contemporary rock sound and fuse it with traditional instruments. I don't particularly care for bluegrass, but I don't go around here saying that I think it's lame because (a) it's not, and (b) I'm not going to go out of my way to trample on other's feelings. I think a little acceptance of differences in musical tastes would do a world of good.

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## John Flynn

> Thile IS a genius and if you can't see it, either:
> A: You haven't listened to them closely.
> B: His ideas are over your head.
> I also know some people who don't get The Beatles.


Now THAT is the lamest, most insulting non-argument of the whole thread! NC isn't even remotely in the same universe as the Beatles. And with the Beatles, as with any true genius, you don't have to "listen carefully" or have the ideas not be "over your head." The music and the ideas are so dead-on that it just hits nearly everyone who hears it, right away. I like everything from the Beatles to opera (season tickets for the last decade) so nothing NC does is over my head and I have listened carefully, over and over, hoping to hear something real. All I hear is run of the mill pop music with hot mandolin solos.

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## chirorehab

Hmmm, how do yo pronounce Thile?

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## kyblue

Should this even be in the rock section?

(Sorry, ducking now...)

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## Patrick Gunning

It's pronounced:
Thie lee

About Nickel Creek's music. I like it, Thile is undoubtedly a genius on the mandolin and a large inspiration in my mandolin playing. Sean Watkins is also an extremely creative guitarist. HOWEVER, I really do think that a lot of their songs lack lyrical depth, or are too muddled in convoluted metaphors to be truly memorable. I love the feels they get going in some of their songs (like the break in When in Rome, or the riff in Young), but for a real musical statement, there are better musicians out there.

But hey, if every musical group fulfilled every aspect of the music we are looking for, there wouldn't be that much incentive to keep hunting for new stuff.

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## bjc

I don't know why people attack this band so much...I guess crossing lines is dangerous work. But I've said it before and I guess I'll say it again (a little more empathically): There are some bands/artists that get praised here that I would rather have a tooth removed via my rectum with a rusty tool than listen to...but if it floats someone's boat, I will gladly not ####### in the water.

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## luckylarue

I think it's a generational thing, in general. Usually it's the old curmudgeons that dis on NC. I don't own any of their cds but I have a ton of respect for them and the music they play and they seem like perfectly nice people. I'm amazed at the amount of time and energy some people spend to put them down. When they or any group draws such extreme reactions - they must be on to something, imo. I say keep on keepin' on, NC.

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## fangsdaddy

Should this even be in the rock section?

(Sorry, ducking now...)
--------------------
in my opinion, yes. 
conceptually, i think of NC as an indie rock band with small instruments. 
pop music? hardly. that's almost as insulting as making cracks about thile's sexual orientation.
some people "get it", some don't. look, there's two kinds of music in the world. good music and bad music . it's up to you to decided which is which. there's no "right" choices. and personally, i put NC in my good pile. right next to sabbath.

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## jefflester

> i put NC in my good pile. right next to sabbath.


Me too, though not right next to each other. There's a lot of letters in between. # 

Nickel Creek falls between Newgrange and Tim O'Brien. Or on a little broader scale, between Van Morrison and Joan Osborne.

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## Stephanie Reiser

> I think it's a generational thing, in general. #Usually it's the old curmudgeons that dis on NC.


I agree! I do not think it is because NC crosses genre lines. I mean, look at Sam Bush. Great great mando and bluegrass player, but he uses electric bass in his band and even drums. Sam, though, is around 50 yrs old. Folks don't spend so much negative energy slamming him like they have been doing here on Thile. And that could be the difference. I believe people don't think that Thile 'deserves' to be this good at such a young age. 

Look, you don't have to like his music, but you don't have to slam him, either. I hate rap music, but I don't surf the internet searching for threads so that I can slam those people - I just ignore them.

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## mandoman88

look, as far as im concerned, it boils down to this: if you like nickel creek, great. i happen to be an avid fan. i have all their cds. but its unnecessary to go on like they are unapproachable, and get offended when someone offers an opinion otherwise; if you dont like them, fine, but theres no reason to call them names or say their music is stupid or immature. music is music, and it means different things to different people; hence, differing tastes. to say that a certain kind of music is stupid or bad, just means that you personally dont like it; to say its amazing or good, is to say you do like it; whats incredible to some people is so-so or unappealing to others. we all have different tastes, so to insist that others adopt those same tastes by agreeing with your evaluation is unreasonable. if you dont like something personally, explain why, dont bash; if you do like something, dont get offended when others dont share that view. live and let live, i say.

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## Gotterdamerung

All the Nickel Creek posts amuse me. I criticize bands I like and respect all the time, and I don't see anything problematic with that. It is because we see glimpses of greatness that we wish were replicated more often. Clearly, most agree in the efficacy of their musicianship--that never gets _seriously_ debated. But their songwriting skill and lyrical skill? As a fan who owns four of their cds and has seen them live, I can honestly say that I am often more disappointed than impressed. It isn't that the songs are so bad, it is that they fail to match the talent of the players. Those of us who enjoy Chris' _Not All Who Wander Are Lost_ and his partnership with Mike Marshall, both in the studio and live, have seen what an amazing musician Chris really is. We see flashes of this in Nickel Creek, but it is dampened by the sophomoric song writing. Even their voices, while they sound nice blended in harmony, fail as lead voices, from the overly breathy and strained Thile, to the sounds like an Christian-earnest singer Sean Watkins, to the powerless Sara Watkins. 

Yes, their pop songs are more complicated and interesting than most. But does the world need better pop songs? I've always believed that we need better music, which would steer them away from many of the cuts that dominate the albums. That being said, I still listen to most of the songs, but I can't stomach thinking of them as anything more than three people who often waste their talents.

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## adgefan

I love Nickel Creek and I think the latest CD is the best by a long way, but as Gotterdamerung says, it often seems that as a band they are less than a sum of their parts. I think I have mentioned before in one of the myriad posts on this subject, that they remind me of AKUS in that so many of their album cuts are skippable and forgettable despite the quality of the musicians in the group. This was certainly a factor on This Side, which whilst containing many fantastic tracks also had far too much filler. 

Having dropped Krauss as their producer, they've finally produced a CD that I can listen to all the way through without losing interest. But as others have mentioned above, I'd be naive to think they are doing anything more than high quality pop music, and pop music will always seem insubstantial and "lame" to some. I don't understand why fans get so upset by those that don't like NC, I could have the same conversation with people about every band in my record collection, it's nothing new to see a band I like get dissed.

If I had to choose between NC or Thile solo I wouldn't hesistate to go for the latter. Luckily, though, no such choice is necessary, I can have both. Having heard about Thile's plans for his next project I'm already counting down the days til I get to hear it...

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## Jeff Hoelter

Don't tease us - what's Thile's plans for his next project?

Thanks,
Jeff

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## adgefan

Oops, sorry! He wants to record with Greg Garrison, Gabe Witcher, Noam Pikelny and Chris Eldridge according to this interview . I don't know if this is actually going ahead or if it's just what he would love to do.

_"I've got it all worked out. I'm gonna use four other musicians that are all around my age and who I feel are just absolute monsters. It's gonna be mandolin, fiddle, guitar, banjo, and bass. These kids are just amazing. Compositionally, I've made some leaps in the last couple months that I hope to represent. The exciting thing about it is we're all too young, naïve, and idealistic to realize we can't make Kind of Blue."_

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## jefflester

There's supposed to be a Thile-Marshall live album coming out in the near future, one could reasonably assume it would before or to coincide with their tour in January. It's listed in the discography section of the recent Mike Marshall music books - according to sources (I haven't seen this).

And for the record, I like Nickel Creek and Chris' solo albums, but I think his best stuff is live with Marshall.

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## fangsdaddy

"I think it's a generational thing, in general. Usually it's the old curmudgeons that dis on NC."
---------
bad generalization. i'm 47 & i think they rule. i tend to think it's those w/closed minds dis nickel creek.

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## Steve Cantrell

Well said, Fangsdaddy. I'm sure that somewhere along the line, somebody said, "That Bill Monroe--he plays too fast and plays too many notes. He'll never make anything of himself".

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## Permanent Daylight

Nickel Creek is more or less tied with Radiohead for my favorite band. It really saddens me that people only see technical skill and bad lyrics (both of which are present, granted) when they look at Nickel Creek's music, because there is a vast amount of musical complexity. Seamless modulation, numerous eccentric time signatures flawlessly woven together in the same pieces, very complex harmonic structure, consistent use of the most difficult key signatures, etc. And it's all done so well you don't notice it unless you look for it: you just hear (or you should hear) great music.

Granted, their lyrics aren't very good. But they're not _that_ bad: they're usually at least intelligent, if poorly worded. More importantly, lyrics shouldn't be the focus: since when was music bad if it didn't have great lyrics? Most of the best music ever written has no lyrics at all. And while there's a difference between no lyrics and bad lyrics, I think Nickel Creek's vocals add to their songs, and I don't see why amazing music should be overlooked because the lyrics aren't the best.

Neil Young, Springsteen, The Band, Bob Dylan...all great song writers, granted. But at the same time none of those artists wrote songs that were even in the same league as Nickel Creek as far as musical complexity. Simplicity isn't always a bad thing, but frankly I'm alot more impressed by really great _music_ (whether it be Nickel Creek or Chick Corea or Stravinsky) than I am by the "great songwriters." Not everyone is a music theorist, I know, and nor should they be, and it's fine if you look more for solid songs with clear messages and good lyrics you can enjoy then musically complex and progressive pieces. But seriously...you look like a fool when you insult a band like Nickel Creek for not writing lyrics like Bob Dylan did. That's like saying we shouldn't enjoy Handel's Messiah because the lyrics aren't that great. It's nothing short of laughable.

I think Chris is pretty clearly a more advanced musician than Sean and Sara are, and that's evident in his solo work, especially the instrumental music he writes. It's truly amazing and I don't see how anyone could say otherwise, save out of ignorance. Even if you don't like it you have to admit it's really good.

I also think Chris's talent as a mandolinist is underrated, which is saying alot, because he gets alot of praise. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that he already is "one of the greats," but really I think he's better than most, if not all, of the other great mandolinists. I've seen Nickel Creek live five times now, and listened to just about everything Chris has recorded. I've also listened extensively to the other greats like Sam Bush, both on album and in live performance, and I really don't think Sam plays as well as Chris does. Chris plays with alot more clarity even while playing faster. And, watching his technique and then watching Sam's, Chris plays alot more smoothly and effortlessly while Sam seems to take everything he's got to pick out his solos. And Chris's improvisation is just leagues above any other mandolinist I've heard. I think Adam Steffey is alot closer to Chris in terms of the sound he gets (I was never as impressed with Sam Bush as everyone else is), but I've never heard him play a solo as impressive as the ones I've heard Chris play dozens of times. I know everyone will think I'm sticking my neck out too far here, but I don't feel like I'm exaggerating...I've always felt like I'm hearing something different than everyone else is.

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## ira

permanent daylight (great screen name btw), i have stayed out of this for the most part, though have read the posts. i am gonna chime in now to point out that all you as many others in this post have done is once again show that this is an all musical preference disucssion. the best, better than, etc... when you get into the echelon of thile, bush, grisman, zenkl, statman, and all the rest of the currently performing/recording greats is simply a matter of which style of play you like better. i don't love bg (i like it in short bursts), but i love frank w.'s playing- raw and intense far better than most of the others (also love ronnie m's style). i think sam bush, especially his rythm/timing is amazing, grimsan's sense of sound and relating melody to rythm-incredible, drew emmit is one of my favs, and i could go on.... but to say any is the best, well they all play such diff. music in such different ways, all have strengths and weaknesses. stop worrying about who is the best, whether or not chris or n.c. get respect. if you dig em, they are great for you. the same would go for the bashers.these are some of the silliest discussions on the cafe. enjoy your music and leave the rest to those that enjoy other performers and genres.
peace all
ira
ps- how could any of you not love the blues!!!! :-):D

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## glauber

Amen, Ira.

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## Nathan Sanders

1. Nickel Creek is a really cool band.
2. Thile and company are excellent musicians, no doubt, with exceptional skills.
3. Thile is one of the leading mandolin players currently.
4. We all have different tastes.

Now, with those things in mind, I would like to offer my observations on Nickel Creek. I do enjoy listening to them. I would not really call them a fabulous commercial success though. Their music is so "out there" and does not have a wide appeal to the music buying public. They've had what, one really commercial hit song, "This Side"?

What sort of mark will they leave on the world of music? Will they create a whole genre as Bill Monroe did with Bluegrass? I doubt it. Will they take a genre such as bluegrass further as Sam Bush and others have done? Possibly.

Consider though, they are accomplishing probably what they collectively and individually want to accomplish. And with time they will improve and expand. Perhaps "selling out" and producing more commercially viable music is not their goal. That's cool and I hope they do not "sell out." They do have great potential though to really develop into a music powerhouse, with a much bigger following than they have now. Imagine!

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## jefflester

> Their music is so "out there" and does not have a wide appeal to the music buying public. They've had what, one really commercial hit song, "This Side"?


They've only had the following singles chart, all on the Country Singles charts:
When You Come Back Down #48 
The Lighthouse's Tale #49 
This Side #56 

Smoothie Song hit #1 on AAA singles airplay chart in summer of 2003. The AAA chart is not a Billboard chart, though.

When in Rome is currently #8 on the AAA airplay chart: AAA Singles Chart

Album-wise:
Nickel Creek #Top Country Albums #13 
Nickel Creek #The Billboard 200 #125 
This Side #The Billboard 200 #18 
This Side #Top Country Albums #2 
Why Should The Fire Die? #The Billboard 200 #17

Two top twenty albums is pretty impressive. "Nickel Creek" and "This Side" are both gold, and "Nickel Creek" is on the verge of platinum - it was at 940,000 in August.

And This Side won a Grammy in 2003 for Best Contemporary Folk Album. They also had Grammy nominations for "Nickel Creek" (Best Bluegrass Album 2001), "Ode to a Butterfly" (Best Country Instrumental 2001), and "Smoothie Song" (Best Country Instrumental 2003).

----------


## Nathan Sanders

Jeff,

Thanks for the very informative stats on Nickel Creek. Indeed they have had some outstanding accomplishments. And in today's bubble gum music industry, they stand head and shoulders above most, simply for the fact they play their own instruments, if nothing else. To me they have not achieved a status of, for example, Alison Kraus and Union Station, but the potential for even greater things is there.

----------


## olgraypat

I'm sure that the rest of the world would get a big kick out of bluegrass fans making fun of anybody's lyrics....lighten up folks......

----------


## Permanent Daylight

1. I'm fully aware that it's not that important who's the best and that it's generally unwise to label anyone as such. But sometimes someone just stands out as alot better. I listen to Thile and Bush and Monroe all play the same songs and Chris just plays them better. He gets the same tone quality playing twice as fast as the others. I don't know, I really don't see why it isn't obvious to everyone else. On an instrument like fiddle there are a thousand people to consider for the best and it's just about impossible to pick one or even a few. I have my favorites but I admit that there are others who are just as good. That goes for most instruments. But I hear a _clear_ difference between Thile and any of the others, and the only explanation other than that Chris is better is that for some reason the others are _trying_ to get that dull tone you get when your fingering and picking isn't exactly coordinated. We all know what that sounds like from our own playing, so I don't see why it's hard to recognize when someone else gets it.

2. I think Nickel Creek will leave a huge mark on music (they should, at least) but even if they don't it isn't that important: the point is that they're making amazing music completely unrestricted by genre. They just play whatever sounds good, and they play it very well. There are very, very few bands or artists doing that, and especially few with instrumental talent even comparable to Nickel Creek.

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## ira

my friend- the best to you and your "best".
i hope you are just looking at this in what i consider a narrow view of music and musicians, and not trolling for a flame.
peace and enjoy listening to your man on mando.

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## glauber

Faster is not always better.

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## luckylarue

Perm, Thile may have a different style, but it's certainly not "better". You can't compare the likes of Thile, Bush and Monroe - they're that different in approach, tone, rhythm, emotions, etc. The can is now open. Sorry, Ira, tis but a small candle!

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## ira

not even a flicker lucky- you make the point over the non-issue here far more succinctly than this truly verbose mando guy

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## beanbass

Perm Day, you said what I was thinking. It amazes me that other people can't see through to see what is really going on in Thile's playing. He's one of the greatest improvisors ever--the guy is just flowing with creativity. As far as his technique, he IS better than most--you can hear every note clearly and cleanly. I have to laugh at some of his solos.

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## Mandomax

One thing I think is important to keep in mind about Thile's playing is that volume is of little concern to him, at least using his technique. Witness his use of the Schertler in conjunction with a volume pedal. He uses the pedal to adjust his dynamics rather than his right hand (at least that is my take on it, from seeing him live and reading interviews). For some of the other pickers referenced (Bush, Grisman, Monroe), volume is/was a primary concern, as all the fancy trills in the world don't mean a thing if you can't hear them. I love Thile's playing, but as a lot of my performances (choro, bluegrass) are done with a single area mike, without volume coming from my right hand, I am outta luck in the ensemble. My .02 cents.

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## adgefan

Interesting you mention the volume pedal. I was intrigued to see both Chris and Sean using these at a recent gig. They also mentioned they were using in-ear monitors for the first time that night, so perhaps the pedals are new to them too? I know nothing about technical stage issues, so have no idea why they chose to use this equipment but the impression I got was that it was more to do with being able to hear themselves above the rest of the band rather than dynamics for the sake of the audience. Could be completely wrong though...I usually am!

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## Nathan Sanders

Do not get the wrong impression from me, but I do like Nickel Creek. I think I prefer their instrumentals to their vocals though. Thile is an awesome player no doubt, with clean licks and a unique point of view. Is he the "best"? Nah. Take a good listen to some of the players on Tone Poets. Check out Andy Leftwich's CD. There are plenty of great players on the scene and Thile just happens to be one of them. Sam Bush is still one of my all-time favorites. He has a different take on things too, but so does every player, you and I included.

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## glauber

I think Thile is awesome, but there are even people in this Cafe thread whose music gives me more pleasure than his. It's a big world out there, and our tastes are constantly evolving.

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## Moose

Ya' know, I don't mean to rattle anyone's cage - just my .02 ; But, when this Board/CAFE starts gett'n "dull", someone "suggests" "...well, wadd'ya think of Nickle Creek?... - I can usually expect at least 4-5 "pages" of comments!## - I'm "old" ya' know, and probably "traditional" but talk about "redundancy"!##.... Yes, I know...,I CAN lurk/scan the other subject areas of this great CAFE site. - Thanks for lett'n me "vent" - Moose.

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## Nathan Sanders

I hear ya Moose. Hey, how about mentioning Gibson and see what reactions we get? Ha ha ha ha......just jokin'.......

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## glauber

That's ok, right? If we always had to find new stuff to talk about, we'd run out of ideas pretty quick.

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## Permanent Daylight

I've seen Nickel Creek five times, and this current tour is the first time they've used those volume pedals and earpieces (at least to the degree that they do now). That would be a reasonable consideration, because it _is_ easier to get that smooth sound if you're not worrying about playing very loud: I know my own playing style definitely leans more toward tone than volume, which is why I like instruments that have alot of volume on their own. I'm sure there's some validity to that point, but at the same time I've seen Chris play all over the dynamic range without ever touching any equipment, countless times. And I've heard many of the others play softly and still not get as good a tone as Chris gets. And, by the way, it isn't just when he plays fast: I think he gets the best tone on slow tunes too.

I don't think by any means that Sam Bush and Adam Steffey and those others guys aren't great players, because they are. I love them all and I listen to them all frequently, especially Sam. I also understand that some of them (Bill Monroe and Sam Bush especially) have done more for the instrument than just about anyone else, and I respect them for that. But...it's like on banjo, someone like Greg Liszt is really, really good, and I like him alot, and there are plenty of unique things about his style that impress me, but Bela Fleck is still just better.

----------


## Mandomax

You must like sports a lot. Let's compare won-loss records- Thile 12-4 in the eastern division, Bush, 11-5 in the Pacific. Come on, bro. Give it a rest with the better, best stuff. I can see how you could do the comparison thing with speed, but tone? Way, way too subjective. Plus, context is huge. I'm just glad Bush and Thile decided to stick with mando.
Later,
Max

----------


## Moose

hee... hee...

----------


## Nathan Sanders

Does Thile play the fiddle? I'd be curious to hear him if he does. We all know Sam can tear up a fiddle.

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## Permanent Daylight

He does and he doesn't. He's recorded violin parts but he doesn't really play...he can play guitar and banjo fairly well, but he's not really that impressive on anything but mandolin.

I actually almost prefer Sam's fiddle playing to his mandolin playing.

----------


## mandopete

> A bunch of excellent pictures from 10-14-05 Atlanta show:
> NC 10-14-05 pics


"Opey could use a haircut!"

----------


## siren_20

At least they have a sense of humor.
And they do a great job covering Britney Spears. Who knew?

----------


## Nathan Sanders

Nickel Creek...pickin' on Britney...that's hilarious and sounds really good.

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## glauber

Yeah, but Thile sings like a girl!

----------


## Andrew Reckhart

All of you Nickle Creek huggers seem to think that they deserve "legendary" status. #I see constant comparisons to The Beatles and Bob Dylan all over this site. #If you want to believe that go ahead, I remember my little sister telling me that New Kids On The Block would go down "Bigger Than The Beatles"! #I guess she was wrong about that, huh? #Come to think of it though they did outsell Nickel Creek! #Does that mean that NKOTB are "legends".

----------


## siren_20

There's a slight difference, Andrew... NKOTB didn't make NAWWAL.
Enough acronyms for you?

----------


## glauber

Nawwal Al-Saadawi?

----------


## jefflester

The Real NAWWAL

----------


## delsbrother



----------


## Andrew Reckhart

siren_20~ There's a slight difference, Andrew... NKOTB didn't make NAWWAL.
Enough acronyms for you? 

Yeah it is enough acronyms for me, but you need to check yourself. There's a slight difference, siren_20... NICKEL CREEK didn't make NAWWAL. Thile did it BY HIMSELF! If your going to be smug at least be CORRECT!

What I'm saying is that Nickel Creek being compared to The Beatles and Dylan is almost as absurd as New Kids On The Block being compared to them. If the Creeksters can stand the test of time and sell MILLIONS of records to 4th and 5th generations then they deserve to be "legends". Until then I'll hear their songs, think "thats o.k." and forget about it within 2 minutes.

----------


## siren_20

Jeez, there's no reason to be rude, Andrew! That's not how my post was intended. I know who made which albums, just trying to bring some levity into the situation.

I can certainly see your point of view on this, but I really don't see why every NC thread has to degrade into these nasty flame-fests. You like 'em, great, you don't, that's great too.

----------


## Andrew Reckhart

I like Thile and respect his mandolin playing enormously............ I freakin' HATE Nickel Creek! I wish he'd quit playing with them and do something else. There I said it as plain as possible. I hate Nickel Creek, but I think that Thile by himself is awesome!

----------


## adgefan

But he does do something else as well as Nickel Creek. He's got 4 solo albums and an album with Mike Marshall. He's done 2 CDs worth of work with Mark O'Connor, Bryan Sutton and Byron House. He's already planning his next project and there's another Mike Marshall CD on the way. By the time that's all released he'll have 8 non-Creek albums before he's 30. There's plenty of time for him to do even more!

If NC were cutting into the time he spent on solo projects I would agree with you. I like NC but they are nothing compared to Thile solo. But as I said above, I don't need to choose between them, I can have both if I want.

Here's an idea. Listen to his solo stuff, don't listen to Nickel Creek. Problem solved!

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## mad dawg

I personally enjoy Nickel Creek's music, and _love_ Thile's instrumental projects, but these love/hate threads are getting repetitive --- yet I'm strangely drawn to them. 

(Let's hope that for all our sake, Josh Pinkham doesn't take up with a pop band and forget to comb his hair someday, else we will be seeing two or three years' worth of "Josh Pinkham: love him/hate him" threads. #)

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## glauber

> The Real NAWWAL


Oh, i get it now. It didn't cross my mind - thought it was going to be the acronym for some kind of award.

By the way, some who wander actually *are* lost.

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## siren_20

Why do I get the distinct impression that you're not a fan, Glauber?

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## Eugene

I admit it. I actually _like_ Nickel Creek (thanks to a 15-yr-old daughter who would rather hear them than Britney Spears, thank God). What continues to perplex is the frequency of topics like this and why such topics as this always predictably degenerate to pages and pages of sadly shallow but impassioned debate (and people who amuse me by teasing the oblivious debaters).

"They're legendary!"

"Nuh-unh!"

Who cares? Why is anybody emotionally invested enough to care what other people happen to think about pop music, acoustic or otherwise? Listen to whatever you enjoy, don't belittle what other folk enjoy, and don't assume your taste has any value to anybody else. I'm goin' back to crawl under my assigned rock in the classical section now. Bye.

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## glauber

Hello, Eugene! Beethoven was tone deaf!  

Anyway, i don't care one way or the other. It's just a band (i.e. a bunch or working stiffs trying to make a living). At least they're doing music, playing their own instruments, etc, more power to them. I just think the emotional intensity people love or hate their "stars" is funny. "Why should the fire die?" Why not?  We can light it up again.

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## glauber

Here's something interesting about The Beatles (click).

----------


## jefflester

> Let's hope that for all our sake, Josh Pinkham doesn't take up with a pop band and forget to comb his hair someday,


Or shave :-)
Thile picture with fan from this past weekend

or is Josh even old enough to shave yet?

----------


## Eugene

> Hello, Eugene! Beethoven was tone deaf!


I think he was deaf deaf, eh?  ...But he could still hear when writing for mandolin.

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## olgraypat

Well said Eugene (2 or 3 posts back).  I don't get it when some folks get mad at who other folks like to listen to or what others like to play. Why wouldn't we all do what our inner creative compass leads us to do and if others like it fine, if they don't fine. At present, not too many people are liking what I'm doing, but I'm having a ball, and I'm glad when I get to share it ever now and then.

----------


## Eugene

You go and have that ball, Pat. #Can I hear what you're doing somewhere?

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## mando bandage

Uh-oh, looks like we're listing toward that what is music, self-expression/self-indulgence vs. "give the people what they wants when they wants it" dilemma. All said on Nickel Creek and Mr. Thile in particular, I just wish I could develop a truly original and instantly recognizable style on the mandolin that even my harshest critics would know well enough to dissect.

R

----------


## bjc

Maybe I missed the post (I did get bored in the middle of this thread) where NC is said to be "Bigger than the Beatles," "The Second Coming Of Dylan" or "The best thing since NKOTB :-)"...

How 'bout everyone kicks back with their favorite beverage, take a big sip and pick a bit?

----------


## Moose

I'll buy THAT suggestion! (I'm "nickle'd-out - WHEW!##)

----------


## jmcgann

Whether you love them or tolerate them or dislike them, you have to recognize that they are turning on thousands of people who otherwise might not have gotten into acoustic music, not to mention mandolin. This dangerous practice can lead people back through the tradition ("Hey, I wonder who Chris listened too...where did these guys come from?"). 

It was Trishcka/Barenberg/Statman and Grisman/Rice/Anger (and a little later Sam, Bela etc.) that led me to the water; Bill Monroe didn't make sense to me as a 17 year old from New Jersey, but the "new stuff" sure did. And now that I am over 25, the tradition resonates with me emotionally more than it could when I was younger.

I heard Chris when he was 16, playing with The Grass is Greener at the IBMA. He made a happy man feel very old.  

I see it at Berklee every day- a generation of players turned on by Nickle Creek and AKUS. I see it as 100% positive, and it really makes me happy as an old soldier of acoustic music.

----------


## AlanN

Right, right on, jm.

I'll never play like Chris, or Josh, or any of those young'uns (something about the right hand...), but I sure am inspired by them. At merlefest one year in the Rigel tent, I was jamming with some contemporaries, and someone said 'Alan, you sound like Thile'. I blushed, but knew it ain't so

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## mando bandage

Amen, JM. It was Thile, Ronnie McCoury and Sam Bush that led this middle aged man into the acoustic tradition.

R

----------


## ira

kinda like the grateful dead to garcia without the dead- old and in the way and new riders- grisman- and all the roots (from bluegrass to blues) that followed. i wouldn't have had a clue, and would have an extraordinarily diff. cd/album collection, and certainly wouldn't be a mando player- great call as always john!

----------


## Ted Eschliman

More truth than poetry, Professor McGann...

My 7-year-old has two favorite artists, right now, Nickel Creek and Hillary Duff. These are two CDs she plays in endless rotation in her personal headset (as 7-year-olds discovering their music identity do).

I pray that as she matures in her asthetic "discretion" she continues to choose more of the former than the latter.

----------


## brandon

it's kinda obvious that the people full of P and V towards them(Mainly Chris) are simply jealous of their(his) incredible skill.

----------


## Moose

And I'll add my "right-on"!!! to JM's post above(and I'm 'bout as "traditional" as it gets!!) - Moose

----------


## Cetecea

You know, I remember listening to the Dead back in the day and having lots of friends that didn't get it and thought I was nuts... But that led me to a lot of BG and old time music that I'm sure I wouldn't have gotten into otherwise. I tend to agree with JM as well...

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## dudlebug23

Why is anyone complaining? Have you heard actual "pop" music lately? Have you listened to the radio? Have you heard "Gold Digger" and that awful song "Photograph" that they play over and over and over? And some people on this thread are calling a band that plays mando/guitar/fiddle/bass POP? It's sick. So what if the style is not to you're liking! We should all be dancing in the streets that a young, open minded band like NC is playing popular music using an instrument we all love! I love NC and Thile and as a former fan of R&B/Rap/Alternative music, I say anything that causes a person like me to change tastes and buy a mandolin is AMAZING! First, go see NC live before bashing....I just saw them in Charlottesville, and I've never been to a concert where there was a standing ovation after the fourth song. I've never heard a band member (Sara) beg the audience to get off their butts and rush the stage, and I've never stood next to a guy that looked punk (multiple peircings/tatoos, etc) that looked right at me and said "This is awesome!" They are changing the face of acoustic music, and I love it. Who else isn't afraid to step outside the boundaries and play absolutely anything, and make it sound good too? (Bach, bluegrass, celtic, folk, Britney Spears, Beck, Dylan, whoever...) I don't care if they make a mark on the history of music, they've made a mark on me, and it's a good one....they are the reason why I am now a music fanatic....Thanks NC!

----------


## Stephanie Reiser

Eric (dudlebug),
Well said.

----------


## travisburch

nice post eric

nobody can argue with anything you said.

----------


## Jim M.

Nickel Creek in San Francisco tomorrow night, at the Warfield IIRC. I'll be there, and at 48, probably one of the older in attendance. Anyone else going?

----------


## berkeleymando

> Nickel Creek in San Francisco tomorrow night, at the Warfield IIRC. I'll be there, and at 48, probably one of the older in attendance. Anyone else going?


Is it sold out?

----------


## Jim M.

As far as I know, tix still available:

NC Tix

----------


## Pete Braccio

I'll be at the SF show too. It's my 46th birthday present so, Jim, you have a bit of company on that end of the age scale.

Hell, I'm even going to make the show even though I have a seriously wrecked knee. That tells you how much I appreciate this group as musicians. 

Come up and say hello if you're there. I'll be in the gimp seating area.

Pete

----------


## berkeleymando

Well I turn 36 this month, maybe I should go as a present to myself.

----------


## Pete Braccio

I think that you should.

----------


## Pete Braccio

Well, I saw Nickel Creek in SF on Saturday and it just reinforced my impression that these kids are incredibly talented. What's more, they obviously have a blast playing music. The only other person that looks like he is having as much fun on stage as these guys is Sam Bush. 

Pete

----------


## adgefan

> And some people on this thread are calling a band that plays mando/guitar/fiddle/bass POP? It's sick.


I certainly didn't use "pop" in a derogatory sense, though others may have. The Beatles were "pop" and it didn't do them any harm! Verse-chorus-verse with lyrics about being in love (or not) etc. is pop in my book and that's what Nickel Creek do really well.

I don't listen to music radio anymore, so I've little idea of what passes as pop music these days but I can assure you that is not what I was comparing Nickel Creek to!

----------


## Mockingbird

&lt;sigh&gt; Okay, I just *have* to throw my $.02 in, no matter how little it's worth. 
First, I *love* Nickel Creek, Chris Thile especially. I started listening to them when "This side" came out, and personally, I think "Deciever" is one of the greatest albums ever made(I'm only 19, but I've listened to a lot, so take that as you will) They didn't turn me off horrid pop or rap music, I never liked that anyways, but they have expanded my musical tastes massively. Sorry, I love 'em. At this point I'll give everything except rap and mainstream pop/country(toby keith-esque stuff...dixie chicks and johnny Cash rule) 
As to the lyrics-I may have a different perspective than most of you, but I love their lyrics.

----------


## dudlebug23

> Originally Posted by  (dudlebug23 @ Dec. 08 2005, 22:17)
> 
> And some people on this thread are calling a band that plays mando/guitar/fiddle/bass POP? #It's sick.
> 
> 
> I certainly didn't use "pop" in a derogatory sense, though others may have. The Beatles were "pop" and it didn't do them any harm! Verse-chorus-verse with lyrics about being in love (or not) etc. is pop in my book and that's what Nickel Creek do really well.
> 
> I don't listen to music radio anymore, so I've little idea of what passes as pop music these days but I can assure you that is not what I was comparing Nickel Creek to!


verse-chorus-verse-about love...

yes, they do that well, so does countless others in many different genres. They also play traditional folk tunes and bluegrass tunes very well....they also do gospel very well...I think the whole goal of Nickel Creek is to not be pigeon-holed into a genre at all. Some of their songs may resemble pop because they are partially influenced by pop, but they are influenced by so much more. Give a listen to House Carpenter...one of the best versions I've heard of this very old, traditional tune. I guess I get defensive about this band because I "get" them. These are three young people who LOVE music and are not prejudice to anything. They play what they love and are influenced by what they love. And they love alot of music. As Chris writes in one song from Deceiver: "...my music love, I'm told it's borderling obscene..." I'd love to get ahold of his IPOD. Yes, you'd find some pop on there, but also some bluegrass, some country, some Bach, some alternative...it's hard to tell. Just don't call a band that is so open-minded pop. Get to know them and their music, and you'll see what I mean! ALWAYS LISTEN!!!

----------


## VictorLouis

I just got my first shot to see them live last week. I'm VERY pleased. I've YET to buy one of their CDs, but now I'm going to make it a point to do so. 

Taken at face value, it's just darned good music.

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## mando bandage

Still like 'em, but I've always been a sucker for musicians who defy categorization.

R

----------


## rhetoric

Your tastes are your tastes -- who can argue? #But the moment you say "I like them BECAUSE..." or "I don't like them BECAUSE..." then there is plenty of room to argue. #The "because" is a set of reasons that are disputable. #So it's not fair to say why you don't like them (or do) and then say, "Well it's just my opinion, why are you getting so huffy?" when somebody disagrees with your reasons. #I think it's kinda fun to quarrel about the reasons and as long as nobody takes it personally (easy to do on the internet) we can fine tune the rationale for our tastes. #This thread has taught me some things about my tastes.

Lyrics are important, but they aren't everything. #NC has some lame sophomoric lyrics, no doubt. #The "I'll still be here when you come back down" line is so presumptuous and arrogant (What if she doesn't come back down, Chris? #What if she flys so high that you never see her again?) that I can barely listen to that song. #But "She loves me, ya, ya, ya" is hardly rocket science. #Lyrics alone are not the ultimate standard. #Otherwise, I couldn't like McCartney's solo work. #I do, but the genius isn't in the lyrics. #And even though I haven't heard the newest NC album, I heard a song on the radio and I thought the lyrics about not seeing eye to eye with the girl were fun. #And Seven Wonders is thoughtful, at least.

Community is important. #Did you ever think that maybe Thile plays with NC because he likes to? #Didn't he grow up playing with them? #Music that comes out of community is more meaningful to me than technical skill alone. #I respect music that is close to home. #The Cox Family and the Rankins get huge points for me because they are making music in community (family, in fact). #One of the reasons we all hate the Backstreet Boys and etc. is because they were an artificial band -- a Madison avenue band. #When the Spice Girls would give interviews and talk about their relationships with each other I could nearly puke. #NC is hardly a PR formula group. #I'd be embarrased to have you guys listen to my band's home-made CD, but my wife, kids, friends, and my fellow parishioners all think we're pretty cool stuff. #They like us for the same reason I like my kids first music recital and it didn't have anything to do with virtuosity. #

Authenticity is really important. #NC seems to have it. #They are fine musicians who write much of their own music, lyrics, and they PLAY and sing. #They are a real band in this regard. #

Musical skill is clearly important. #Somebody here mentioned laughing while listening to Thile's solo work because it is so amazing. #Me too! #They are doing something new, I think. #I can't listen to Young or Dylan because I can't get past Young's lame guitar playing and I can't get past either one's voice. #That said, they have both written some great tunes. #And NC live is just as amazing as NC recorded -- more so! #Somebody complained to me that Allison Kraus was lousy in concert because it sounded too much like a recording. #OK -- if you have so fallen in love with the tradition of bad sounding live music that you can't stand good live music, something is wrong. #NC is amazing live because they are real musicians.

Anyway, clearly NC is doing something right -- otherwise they wouldn't be getting poked and prodded like this all through cyberspace. #I like them.

I can't STAND "The Boss," by they way. #I haven't yet figured out why, though. #And as long as I don't give you any reasons for my distaste, it's only taste and you have no grounds for criticism. # # # #

----------


## Garrett

YOUNG'S LAME GUITAR PLAYING!

I'm sorry but that is it. If one can't tell when playing has depth and when it just has flash I can't take them seriously. The guitar solo on Cowgirl in the Sand makes a lot of the nonsense we talk about as great playing sound like background music for Sunday morning cartoon shows.

----------


## rhetoric

"Well, it's just my opinion, Garrett. Why are you getting so huffy?"

 

I didn't say his guitar playing doesn't have "depth." I didn't say "flash" defined musicianship. I just said I thought it was lame. Notice here that I'm not telling you WHY I think it's lame -- cause I don't really want to fight about it.  And I illustrate my own point -- if you dwell on one shortcoming (as a matter of taste) you can miss other good things that are going on.

----------


## Garrett

Your choice of the word "lame" and the blanket statement about all of his guitar playing. But it's not mando-content so I'm droppint it. Now if someone says the same thing about Frank W., Buzz Busby or Bill!

----------


## adgefan

> I guess I get defensive about this band because I "get" them. These are three young people who LOVE music and are not prejudice to anything.  Just don't call a band that is so open-minded pop. Get to know them and their music, and you'll see what I mean! ALWAYS LISTEN!!!


You've misunderstood. 

You don't need to get defensive because I love NC too, I know all their music inside out, and have no intention of insulting them whatsoever. You are right, they are not prejudiced against any music genre and that was exactly my point when I said that "pop" was not a derogatory term. It was implied in an earlier post that calling NC pop was somehow insulting, as if pop music is by definition not very good or insignificant. Pop is fun, youthful, expressive and energetic. Nickel Creek have these qualities in spades. They have no pretensions and are just as comfortable playing Bach as they are Britney Spears.

There is plenty of fantastic pop music out there and Nickel Creek are making some of the best. They also do other things, but their latest offerings as band and solo have all leaned heavily towards the likes of the Beatles, Elliot Smith and Beck rather than the folk and traditional influences of their first album. The best thing about them is there is no way to predict what their next records will be like. From what I've heard about Chris' next solo record, it will be a million miles from Deceiver. Can't wait!

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## adgefan

> NC has some lame sophomoric lyrics, no doubt. The "I'll still be here when you come back down" line is so presumptuous and arrogant (What if she doesn't come back down, Chris? What if she flys so high that you never see her again?) that I can barely listen to that song.


Sorry to be pedantic, but this is a Tim O'Brien lyric, Nickel Creek didn't write it. However, I agree that some of their lyrics are rather cringeworthy. My (least) favourite is Thile's 

_I'm 19 and I've kissed two girls, that's all. 
You're 16 and you're one - is that against the law?_

I love the album but find it hard listening to that song because of that atrocious rhyming couplet!

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## Cetecea

> Neil Young is a lame guitar player?


NO.

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## rhetoric

My bad about attributing the lyric to NC, agdefan. It still makes my skin crawl. 

Even genius stumbles from time to time. I think our tastes are often ill-defined (like my distaste for Neil Young -- I'll agree to drop it, Garrett) and so we proof text by magnifying the occasional slow spot. Tolkien's writing is amazing, but he's got this one line in the Return of the King in which someone "cries a tear drop like a rain drop." I have a colleague who is a Tolkien nut who is convinced that he rattled off that line (and botched it) because Mrs. Tolkien was in the kitchen shouting, "You've been at that stupid typewriter all day --now it's time for dinner so just get in here right now." 

I absolutely agree with Dudlebug about pop. Put carefully selected voices with professionally, even scientifically written music and lyrics and you manufacture some real musical fun. But the originality, creativity, authenticity, and such are not in the band, -- they are in the marketing formula (which is why the bands themselves don't usually last too long). If an "authentic" band (for lack of a better term) feels that they have to measure up to the standards of perfection imposed by pop standards, then pretty soon they start getting over-produced.

I would just HATE being so good that I got famous and was forever pidgeonholed into a genre (ok I wouldn't hate the being good part). I get disappointed when I buy a CD from musicians whose work I have liked in the past and the new music isn't what I like or expected, BUT it would drive me bats as a musician if I was forever expected to do what the fans/critics/labels demanded that I do! NC may have gone poppy on this latest record (don't know, it's still in my wife's stocking) but I get the impression that they can and will do whatever they want to do, musically.

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## adgefan

> I absolutely agree with Dudlebug about pop. Put carefully selected voices with professionally, even scientifically written music and lyrics and you manufacture some real musical fun. But the originality, creativity, authenticity, and such are not in the band, -- they are in the marketing formula (which is why the bands themselves don't usually last too long).


I think the only disagreement we have here (other than I really like Neil Young!) is the definition of pop music. I just use it as an all encompassing term that can include music from any genre that has a certain feel to it. You use it to describe manufactured and commercial music, your opinions on which I agree with wholeheartedly. As I said in my post above, this is *not* the kind of thing I mean when I say pop.

Pop and authenticity aren't mutually exclusive - John Lennon was in the world's most successful boy band, after all. Chris Thile has often been quoted that he has no desire to make music in order to sell records. He still writes some killer pop songs though (Sean Watkins writes even better ones). And as you say, they are not limited to such music. I've heard Thile play Bach and Mozart. I've also heard him play the Super Mario Bros theme and Britney Spears. 

So we appear to be having a discussion about the definition of a three letter word. It's not like I have loads of work to finish before Christmas, or anything

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## dudlebug23

> Originally Posted by  (rhetoric @ Dec. 20 2005, 15:27)
> 
> NC has some lame sophomoric lyrics, no doubt. #The "I'll still be here when you come back down" line is so presumptuous and arrogant (What if she doesn't come back down, Chris? #What if she flys so high that you never see her again?) that I can barely listen to that song.
> 
> 
> Sorry to be pedantic, but this is a Tim O'Brien lyric, Nickel Creek didn't write it. However, I agree that some of their lyrics are rather cringeworthy. My (least) favourite is Thile's 
> 
> _I'm 19 and I've kissed two girls, that's all. 
> You're 16 and you're one - is that against the law?_
> ...


I hate that lyric also, cringeworthy. I attribute that to a sheltered, home-schooled boy not wise to the ways of the world. He's getting better though. I'd bet he wrote that song a while ago when he wasn't as experienced in the ways of women and love. What I am impressed with on his whole album, Deceiver, is the engineering and instrumental work. I still can't fathom that he played EVERY instrument on that album. And played them well. WOW.

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## rhetoric

"So we appear to be having a discussion about the definition of a three letter word. It's not like I have loads of work to finish before Christmas, or anything"

Ahhhhh, but I turned in all of my grades at noon today, so I'm a free man. 

Here's a distinction that I think proves helpful. I think our use of the term "pop" is problematic. Madonna, NSync, Ashey Simpson, etc. -- they are not pop music because they are not popular culture. Pop doesn't just mean "popular because lots of people like it," it means, "popular because the populace is doing it." A garage band is popular music/culture. Me and my trio are popular music/culture. Most of the folks on this forum DO music (play with friends, go to small jam sessions and festivals, play in coffee houses now and again). Madonna, NSync, and etc. aren't popular culture -- they are mass culture. "Mass" as in mass produced, manufactured, etc.

And this is really far afield, but the unfortunate part of American popular culture is that most of it is spent consuming mass culture (we watch TV, go to the movies, listen to the radio, then spend lots of time talking about what we watch and hear). Lot's of Americans consume music (buy it and listen) but not too many are making music (writing, playing, etc.).

OK, I'm done.

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## dudlebug23

I attribute that change from album to album with the change of growing up. Their first album, produced by Alison Krauss, was when they were in their teens and still in their early phase of being influenced by different genres but sticking to their roots. Second album, a departure for sure, but still mellow, again produced by Krauss, so I'm sure she reigned them in again. However, they are again growing up and becoming more vocal in what style of music they want to play, what they want to sound like. Then Why Should the Fire Die comes out...they've abandoned Krauss, they're young adults, Chris has been through a divorce, they've had relationships and all the problems that go with that...finally...and their music finally reflects this. The thing is, the whole album isn't consistantly pop from song to song. Scotch and Chocolate? Not popish. Stumptown? Nope. Tommorow is a Long Time? That's a Dylan song, so folk. Doubting Thomas? In my opinion, that one's more like the first album. There are songs on there that are Elliot Smith sounding, yes, but I think they represented their tastes and influences well, and displayed their skill amazingly. I think they feel they can get their own personal styles out in their solo albums now, and when they record as a band, play what is good and accepted by the group. Thanks for the good-spirited debate you all! None of this has been defensive on my part, I just love discussing music!

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## jefflester

> What I am impressed with on his whole album, Deceiver, is the engineering ...


Worthy of a Grammy nomination.

*Field 27 - Production, Non-Classical
Category 90 - #Best Engineered Album, Non-Classical
(An Engineer's Award. #(Artists names appear in parenthesis.))

 Deceiver
 # # #Gary Paczosa & Chris Thile, engineers (Chris Thile)
 # # #[Sugar Hill Records]
*

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## smallshinything

I'm having a hard time believing that my second post is about Thile and Nickel Creek. I had hoped to avoid all of this. Either you like him or you don't. We can all yell about it, we all seem to agree that the kid can f-ing play. You like what he does or you don't. Simple. It's the side issues making my eyes water after 6 (very interesting) pages. First, I have no idea why Thile uses a volume pedal, but I know I use on here and there to give me an extra push when I'm taking the break. I get a little excited up there and that crutch keeps the live sound a little smoother. I think I'm an alright player and I think I use dynamics, but live is a different game, for me. When people yell I chop as hard as I pick. Sue me. Second, why in the hell do we care what kind of music it is? what does that have to do with anything? If you think it's pop and you hate pop, there you go. You now have a reason to dislike it. I don't know why you need it, but there it is. Me, I like music. All of it. Some songs I like and some I don't, but I don't hate a kind and I don't think it's really useful to.. Let's leave the idea of "if we can call it something we can compartmentalize it" to the critics and get on to talking like musicians. the endeavor to have control over a thing by labeling it is for the academics and those afraid to go [/I]do it[I]. It fails to have an honest impact on the sound. 

I like him and I learn from him and I steal from him whenever my fingers let me. Sure, there's some dumb lyrics, but Jimi singing about nonsense and getting his nob polished has not stopped me from learning from and enjoying the joy of sound he left. Sorry, all done now. I still missed what I wanted to say, but I tried.

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## mandopete

> Originally Posted by  (dudlebug23 @ Dec. 21 2005, 20:24)
> 
> What I am impressed with on his whole album, Deceiver, is the engineering ...
> 
> 
> Worthy of a Grammy nomination.
> 
> *Field 27 - Production, Non-Classical
> Category 90 - #Best Engineered Album, Non-Classical
> ...


Yes, it really reminded me of the old Godley & Creme recordings.

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