# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  The wait is over - replica tuners for your teens Gibson A.

## Rob Gerety

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/M...ctures#details

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## Bill Van Liere

Cool, they look great.

Made me get the old paddlehead out and have a look.

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## fatt-dad

I'm really excited!

f-d

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## MikeEdgerton

There is another thread stating that they aren't on the correct centers for older mandolins. Those aged tuners look freaking real. I don't know if I'd buy the bright ones.

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## fatt-dad

Looking for confirmation for use on a '20 A3.  Anybody?

f-d

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## MikeEdgerton

Here's the thread I mentioned.

From the Stewmac site:

Steel baseplates feature the original early 1900s shape, incised "tread stripes," and vintage style square riveted worm posts.

15:1 gear ratio for improved tuning
Vintage style riveted worm posts
Early 1920s .931" (23.65mm) string post spacing
.236" (6mm) string post diameter
1920s-style press-fit peghead bushings, .283" (7.19mm) diameter
Mounting screws included
Relic nickel or bright nickel finish
Choice of cream or grained ivoroid knobs
Complete set of 3-left, 3-right

Important: Installing tuners with early 1920s string post spacing onto modern mandolins normally requires peghole redrilling. Plate-mounted tuners can't work efficiently if the pegholes are improperly aligned

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## goaty76

Are there any features on these that will make it obvious that they are not original?  I'd hate for anyone buying a vintage instrument thinking the tuners are original and having them actually be repros.

Phil

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## Rob Gerety

My guess is that the tuners are specd to fit perfectly in stock teens and 20s A style Gibsons.  Can't imagine they would do it any other way.  But, it would be wonderful if a luthier or other knowledgeable person could confirm the post spacing specs on the unmodified Gibson A models. I want a set of these bad.  My old tuners are decent but not great despite a complete rehab recently.  t I would love to put them in the case and get a set of these on there.  It would really make my life a lot easier.

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## atetone

From looking at the pictures on the Stewmac site they look pretty good. The only thing I see is that the gear cogs are different to allow for a higher gear ratio.
I can't remember what the ratio was on the original ones but these seem to be higher. (tighter ratio).
That is ok with me. 
I think I will go for the bright nickel shiny ones because I have seen lots of the original tuners that are still very bright once cleaned up.
They don't have to look aged to look original.

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## John Rosett

I got a set of these tuners in the mail today. Unfortunately, there's not enough time before my gig tonight to put them on. The posts look like they line up perfectly with the originals, but I won't know for sure until I install them.
I got the cream plastic buttons, and they look very much like the originals. 
I'll report back after I install them, probably Sunday.

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## Rob Gerety

I got mine today too.   Relic with cream buttons.  Unfortunately, I have to wait a month until my birthday!  Ugh.

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## Ray(T)

Its also almost a month until my birthday too! The bright ones are the closest match for the original ones on my '15 but the gear screws are wrong. The original screws (or what I assume are original) are flat headed and "blued" - not round and chromed. Looking at the previous thread, some people seem to be measuring between the posts which is bound to lead to errors. It makes more sense to measure between fixed points on the gears.

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## John Rosett

Last night, I put the new tuners on my '19 A. The bass side, which I put on first, slipped in fairly easily, and only one of the shafts seemed like it was binding slightly. The treble side was much more difficult. The new shafts wouldn't fit through the original eyelets, although they had on the bass side. I put the new eyelets in and still found that the new tuners didn't fit well. Two of them bind badly enough that I'm going to take it to my luthier and have them fitted. 
I think that the holes are slightly misaligned, rather than there being anything wrong with the tuners; the new tuners matched up perfectly with the old ones. I guess that my original tuners weren't as bad as I thought!
I think that anyone installing these tuners on a vintage Gibson should count on a little bit of adjustment to the holes for a really good fit. Also, anyone having problems with their original tuners might want to check for proper alignment too.
The tuners that do work smoothly feel much better than the originals, and the higher gear ratio really helps. I think that once everything's set up right, I'm really going to like them.
I use this mandolin for gigs pretty much weekly, and I'm more concerned with the tuners working well than looking exactly like the originals. I got the basic nickel plated, cream plastic button ones, and you have to look closely to tell the difference from the front. From the back, they do look a little different, but not a big concern for me.

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## John Rosett

Here's a couple of pictures of the new tuners on the mandolin:

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## Pete Martin

Hey John, how do you like them?  To you, are they worth the effort and $?  I'd like to have a set of good tuners on my A2 (and Gil, F4, octave, mandola, cello, etc... :-)

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## John Rosett

Hey Pete-
I just put them on last night, but I think that they're going to be a big improvement over the originals. I got the basic model, and for $46 they're definately worth the money. They actually seem to be a little smoother than yesterday, so I'm going to wait a week before I take it in for professional help. I have a mando gig next Friday, so I'll see how it goes.

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## Rob Gerety

John, do your old tuners bind at all when they are off the instrument?  When I rehabbed the Handel tuners on my A4 I discovered, much to my chagrin, that 90% of the stiffness and binding I was getting was present even with the tuners off the instrument with the cogs removed. The stiffness was coming from the area where the shaft turns in the brackets.  I cleaned and lubed but it really did not solve the problem.  I was tempted to put a slow drill on the stiff tuners and lap them in with a few thousand turns but I chickened out worried I might damage them and they do work "ok" now.  Anyway, I am optimistic that these new tuners will slip right on without any modification or drilling of the peg head.

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## John Rosett

Rob-
The old tuners are kind of stiff, even off of the mandolin.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Rob-
> The old tuners are kind of stiff, even off of the mandolin.


If you examine them closely doesn't the "hang up" always comes from one particular spot on the rotation?  On several of these older tuners that I have do this -- in my cases the worm and the cog gears had eaten into each other and the missing metal is causing slop which in turn causes the failure in a smooth operation.  Of course it becomes a major issue when you hit that bad spot under load of the string tension.

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## Rob Gerety

The issue with my original tuners exists even when the cogs are completely removed from the tuners and the tuners are off the instrument.  So it can be caused by different things.  Actually only two are troublesome and they really are not that bad.  The rest are good.  Still, I'm going to remove the Handel tuners and leave them in the case for resale time.  

Can anyone report on the function of these new replica tuners?  I have a set - but I have to wait until the end of September when they are "officially" presented to me as a birthday gift.  The wait is killing me.

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## Vernon Hughes

I put a set on my 1917 A-2 last week..amazing!

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## acousticphd

Probably as expected, some people are likely to have a lot of interest in how well these new replicas match the vintage tuners in every respect, and some (more?) people who are hoping for improved function over the originals (that would include me).  

If I bought these replicas, I would very likely install them in the "modern" orientation, shaft-over-cog, rather than the original way.  Have any of you done that, or would you consider doing that?  I suppose I should mention that my instruments (A and A1) are both non-descript and refinished, or have some other non-original features, so I have no problem modifying tuner orientation, especially if they worked better as a result.

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## KanMando

I just installed a set of the "relic" nickel tuners on my 1914 A.  My tuners had been replaced by a previous owner.  The base plates were shorter than the original base plates, so the impression of the original plates was visible in the wood and so were a couple of the original screw holes.  The new bushings were a little tight on the bass side so I had to open up the holes in the headstock a tiny bit with a round file.  The bushings fit fine on the treble side.  The tuners fit perfectly and the mounting holes matched up well with the old existing holes.  Even better, the base plates matched the impressions of the original plates perfectly.  They work well and look great.

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## Rob Gerety

I made an attempt to install these tuners on my 1916 A4 this evening.  They look great and fit perfectly in every respect but one.  The new bushings have an ever so slightly larger diameter, inside and outside, compared to the originals - or so it seems.   The new shafts will not fit in the old bushings - too tight, so it is not an option to use the old bushings.  The new bushings will not pop in the original headstock holes  - or certainly it would require the application of a lot more force than I am prepared to apply as an amateur.  I think that with a tiny bit of sanding on the inside of the headstock holes these new bushings will fit perfectly.  They might even press in with some padded channel lock pliers as is - but I think not, I think they are just a tad bit too tight. 

So here is my dilemma - if I carefully open up the headstock holes, will the old bushings ever fit properly again?  Would it hurt the value to do this?  What would the technique be to tighten up the headstock holes again if I wanted to go back to the old tuners?  Ugh. I was hoping they would be exact - they are close but not exact. Goodness it is hard to understand why they were not designed to be an exact drop in fit.

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## KanMando

Rob - forcing the bushings in might crack the headstock.  See my reply in the previous post.  Just a tiny bit of filing was all it took.  You might use a piece of rolled up sandpaper to slightly enlarge the holes.  I think if you wanted to re-install the original tuners and bushings, you might put some slivers of hardwood in the holes to snug up the fit.  In my case it wasn't an issue since the tuners on my mando were not original.

Bob

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## Bob DeVellis

If you want to snug up the holes to reinstall the original bushings, you can "paint" the empty holes with a thin layer of super glue (cyanoacrylate).  Let the glue dry completely before you try seating the bushing.  If still loose, add another layer.  It's probably better to proceed slowly so that you don't overshoot and then have to enlarge the hole again.  And be sure not to accidentally glue the bushing into the headstock by not letting the glue dry completely and forcing in the bushing.

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## Jim Webster

This is great news. I learned about the worm-under configuration the hard way when replacing a set of tuners on an old mandolinetto. I ended up adapting a pair of worm-over tuners by carefully filing down the top of the base-plates so they didn't overhang the top of the headstock. But I'm planning to build a replica mandolinetto soon and now am really glad that I can do it with authentic tuners.

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## Rob Gerety

> If you want to snug up the holes to reinstall the original bushings, you can "paint" the empty holes with a thin layer of super glue (cyanoacrylate).  Let the glue dry completely before you try seating the bushing.  If still loose, add another layer.  It's probably better to proceed slowly so that you don't overshoot and then have to enlarge the hole again.  And be sure not to accidentally glue the bushing into the headstock by not letting the glue dry completely and forcing in the bushing.


Great idea.  I did a similar thing once with wood glue to tighten up an end pin.  Still - I'm reluctant to do anything to this lovely vintage instrument that makes it necessary to do a repair like that to make the original Handel tuners fit properly again when right now that do indeed fit extremely well.  I may just give another stab at rehabilitating my Handel tuners - maybe send them out to Paul H. They really are not that bad.  I know he thinks they can normally be brought back to 100% excellent function.

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## Darryl Wolfe

I have the Restoration Challenge mandolin in my hands now.  I took the tuners off to do a little work on the mando and put them back on.  They work great and look great.  I aged to buttons up a little bit as I thought they looked just a tad bit too white. Great set of tuners.  Picture is when I received it.

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## Michael Lewis

It has been mentioned but it seems some people don't quite pick up on it, that the original holes drilled in the headstocks at the factory are often a bit uneven and some should be plugged and re-drilled for proper alignment if the machines are to work properly.  I had to plug and drill several holes for the mandolincafe restoration project.  When properly installed these machines work very nicely.

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## Darryl Wolfe

> It has been mentioned but it seems some people don't quite pick up on it, that the original holes drilled in the headstocks at the factory are often a bit uneven and some should be plugged and re-drilled for proper alignment if the machines are to work properly.  I had to plug and drill several holes for the mandolincafe restoration project.  When properly installed these machines work very nicely.



Nice job...I had them off and did not notice.  I was not looking for it either

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## Harry H

There are around 8 reviews of the Golden Age restoration tuners over at Stew Mac. Here's a link:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/M...eviews#reviews

[One of the reviews is mine, under the witty internet sobriquet, 'guitartracker']

A friend and I put them on our respective mandos, a '22 A-4 and '17/18 A something-or-other (can't read the label anymore, sorry). We both like them a lot. There are some physical differences between the 'restoration' tuners and the 'original' tuners:

1) *Compared to the 'original' tuner shafts, the replacement tuner shafts are slightly longer.* 

As well, the string holes on those 'replacement' shafts are a bit further up the shaft (that's from memory). It means that you have to add another turn or two of string on the replacement post to get the string back to the 'normal' or 'original' break-over angle that the mando would have with the original tuners in place (think of the difference between Gibson guitar headstocks at a 17 degree pitch and a 14 degree pitch). 

2) *The tuner shaft holes in the headstock of the '22 A-4 were .003" tighter than the diameter of the 'replacement bushings'.*

I can certainly understand how some mando owners wouldn't want to change their wonderful instruments in any way, but 5-10 minutes with a round-file fixed the problem on the A-4. The instrument was in very good shape, but the owner traded the 'promise of the ability to stay in tune with the replacement tuners' for the incremental loss of wood. It's a trade he's still happy with, as that instrument, pre-replacement tuners, couldn't stay in tune for a whole song....

Why are the tuner shafts different from the originals? I imagine it's a price point issue, as in, "Our current machines will make the tuner shafts like this for 4 cents, or you can buy us a new machine for $20K."

3) *The replacement bushings serve a little different function compared to the original bushings.* 

They are a little more substantial than the originals, and actually fit the replacement tuner shaft much more tightly than original bushing fit their shafts. They operate more like a collar or bearing surface in relation to the tuner shaft. I would guess that they are doing this to combat the natural tendency of the tuner post to be pulled away from the worm gear in the tuner design that Gibson used from, what, '07 to '25 or so?

One thing that was of interest to me when looking at the old tuner bushings was realizing that they all were 'distorted'. All of the bushings on my friend's A-4 were 'ovaled-out'! The shafts, over the years, had 'leaned into' the string pressure and pulled their bushings out of round. I don't think the 'restoration' bushings will have that problem. By the way (again, from memory), I don't think the 'old' bushings would work with the new tuner shafts. Wrong fit!

Yeah, the replacement tuner screws were a little different, but fit into the existing screw holes properly and look fine to me. The tuners shafts fell into the holes perfectly and the screw-holes on the plates all lined up with the screw-holes in the wood of the headstock.

I would have described fitting the tuners to 'my mando' but the original tuners were long gone and badly replaced by some later Grover-type tuners (lots of binding with the replacements). In fact, I gladly gave the project over to my long-suffering luthier to do correctly without my help!

In closing, the tuners work fine. I would definitely buy another set. I don't know if they'll last 88 years like the first set on my friend's A-4, but I imagine they'll make it through a decade 'just fine'.

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## fatt-dad

> I have the Restoration Challenge mandolin in my hands now.  I took the tuners off to do a little work on the mando and put them back on.  They work great and look great.  I aged to buttons up a little bit as I thought they looked just a tad bit too white. Great set of tuners.  Picture is when I received it.


What method did you use to "age" the tuner buttons?

f-d

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## Darryl Wolfe

> What method did you use to "age" the tuner buttons?
> 
> f-d


Just a bit of ambered alcohol stain

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## Jeff Wheelock

Here's my experience with a 1914 A-3.  The old tuners were in need of refurbishment and one was bent, so I opted to try the Golden Age set and keep the originals in the case.  The screw holes lined up perfectly.  Yes, the bushings were slightly larger and I did not want to attempt to enlarge the holes.  The posts on the new set slid into the old bushings without too much trouble.  The posts were a tight fit but did not seem to impede operation of the tuners so I opted to leave the old bushings in place.  I was disappointed that the string posts were a solid cylinder and not concave like the orginals.  I happen to like concave posts that allow the string windings to ride up from the bottom and seat well.  It seemed that new posts are longer and have slightly more mass.  Upon restringing, the tuners worked fine.  It may be my imagination, but the mando seems to sustain much more and, truth be told, not in an especially pleasing way.  Is it the added mass (tiny though it may be)?  Anyone else notice a slight tonal difference from old to new tuners?

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## Ray(T)

I used a reamer to open out the holes slightly on my '15 A. As for refitting the original bushings, I'd start with a couple of wraps of PTFE tape (the stuff plumbers use to seal screw fittings) It may not be authentic but the stuff is cheap, you'd never know it was there and it would be reversible if it didn't work.

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## Mark Rauch

I just put these on my 21 Gibson A. The fit was a bit tight but thet went in just fine with some tapping with a light hammer. They are great. I got the antique finish which looks incredibly "age appropriate" and they work great. I did lubricate them a bit to make them easier to turn. Just after I put them on I took it to an experienced luthier for new frets and some fretboard work. From looking at the tuners, he couldn't believe they weren't the originals. Bottom line: great product!

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## Ray(T)

> I got the antique finish which looks incredibly "age appropriate" and they work great.


Forgot to mention that. I got the antique ones too - they look older than the ones I took off!

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