# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Why keys of B and B flat?

## RickPick

I'm working with Jack Tottle's Bluegrass Mandolin (great book). He provides music with some breaks in dot and tab form for Careless Love, but the music is in the key of B flat. Same with Nine Pounds Hammer, but in the key of B. I fiddle a bit and understand the advantage to fiddlers of playing in the keys of A or D. And I understand the reason to use a capo on guitar to suit the singers's range, yet let the guitarist use the C or G shape chords. But what's the reason for keys like B or B Flat or F? When I learn the breaks, I can't play with anyone else in another key, since some/many of the notes in the breaks use open strings.  Just curious....

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## MikeEdgerton

Someday someone is going to call out a song in a jam in one of Satan's keys and you'll have an idea as to how to play them.

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Canuckle, 

danielpatrick, 

DataNick, 

DavidKOS, 

Drew Egerton, 

farmerjones, 

Mark Gunter, 

Mark Wilson, 

Reywas, 

Timbofood

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## mee

> Someday someone is going to call out a song in a jam in one of Satan's keys and you'll have an idea as to how to play them.


 :Laughing: 
We did more in those keys than open G, I use to fret it now I don't sweat it.  :Grin:

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Mark Gunter, 

MikeEdgerton

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## T.D.Nydn

Funny,I play a lot in Bb but hardly never in B.....

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## Mark Gunter

> And I understand the reason to use a capo on guitar to suit the singers's range, yet let the guitarist use the C or G shape chords. But what's the reason for keys like B or B Flat or F?


Okay, I'll TOFTT and offer a more boring and comprehensive answer  :Laughing: 

If you've never studied the Circle of Fifths, take a gander. Twelve keys to play in (and three have more than one name, so arguably 15 keys) ... and your mandolin is able to play tunes in all those keys. So why would you?

Well, as you mentioned, in a band or in a jam when the guitarist puts a capo on 4 and plays a G shape are you just gonna sit out? That's the key of B. Capo 3, play G shape, he's in Bb. I think you'll find guitarists capoed all over the neck and usually playing with chord shapes of the G, C or D as the key chord. So it's a good idea to learn a few tunes -especially sung tunes - in more than one key, and to learn to play breaks without using open strings. Short answer: it's all relative.

Circle of Fifths

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Explorer

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## MikeZito

I used to write a lot of songs in Bm, G and D, because they just fit the tone of my voice . . .  but when I hit the age of 50, my voice dropped a 1/2 step - so now my stuff is in B flat minor, G flat or D flat.  I was at an open jam recently where I sang a blues version of Ricky Nelson's 'Hello Mary Lou'.   When I announced to the house band that we were going to do it in G flat, I thought they were going to throw me out of the building!

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## onassis

> And I understand the reason to use a capo on guitar to *suit the singers's range,*


This.

These are breaks for vocal songs that, in the bluegrass canon,  are often sung in these keys.  And riffs learned in these keys can be used in any number of songs.

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## granite

Instrumental written by a mandolin player in Bb...

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## Bertram Henze

It's a marketing scam of the capo industry.  :Cool:

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DataNick, 

Gelsenbury, 

James Miller, 

MontanaMatt, 

Reywas, 

Rush Burkhardt

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## Josh Levine

Keying those tunes up leads to the high lonesome sound that hardcore grassers seek. The higher pitch lends a more cutting tone to the singers. Thats why the kids these days always want to mash it up to Bd or B.

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DataNick, 

steve in tampa

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## RickPick

I think Mike's Satan explanation serves best. I'd have suggested "perversity" myself..... But WHY -- in a mandolin instruction book -- would Tottle pick these keys to present tunes for mandolin learners? He even explains where guitar players should place capos and what "corresponding" chords to play, knowing they would never play directly IN those keys. I guess I still don't understand. Why wouldn't he teach the songs in G or D or A or whatever, and then tell the guitarist where to put the capo  (uh oh, that's not what I meant). I've heard C referred to as "boring old C" -- presumably because it has no sharps or flats. But what's the appeal of BFlat or B. Is there any "music theory" advantage to these keys?                    BTW, I enjoy learning to do things I don't understand, but I'd enjoy it even more if I understood why I'm learning it!

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MikeEdgerton

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## T.D.Nydn

I think Wakefield wrote New Campton in Bb out of sheer boredom of normal mandolin keyes,,it says he used to play in G ,then take it to G# and then to A and then Bb,,,that's someone who is very familiar with moving around keyes,,and playing in G and taking it to G# is a great practice tip,,,I do it constantly thanks to Frank...

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## Kevin Stueve

edited:  removed too basic for this forum surely

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Timbofood

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## Andy B

It helps to be able to play in the common bluegrass keys, and both B flat and B are pretty common. Also there are a lot of nice tunes in B flat or G minor, which is the relative minor key of B flat. Think New Camptown Races (B flat) mentioned above and Kentucky Mandolin and First Day In Town (G minor). Lots of open strings to drone or ring in B flat/G minor if you like. And in B there is Rebecca, a popular jam tune. When you are not playing the open strings, much of the playing in B or B flat is in closed positions, which you can easily shift to play in other keys. Finally, it never hurts to know more about the instrument.

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Mark Miller

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## rockies

If you're ever going to play in a band or backup for a female singer get ready for those keys. A, Bb,& B. They are commonly in female singers voice range, also be prepared for capos by the singer being on ANY fret, and progressions from your wildest dreams or nightmares. Especially when they say " I just wrote this new one last week"
Dave

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## allenhopkins

Kenny Baker, probably Bill Monroe's favorite Blue Grass Boys fiddler, was reportedly asked what it was like playing with Monroe.  "It's great if you like playing in B for 25 years," was his reply.  Monroe picked keys that fit his singing, and _he_ didn't mind playing in B.

Not to start a ruckus, but you can always get a capo and play in G or A.  Hide it from the Capo Police, though.

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DavidKOS, 

Skillet, 

steve in tampa, 

stevedenver

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## Nevin

A lot of blues tunes are in Bb.  It also is a good key for horns so if the tune originally written with horns in mind you will often see it used.

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Charlieshafer, 

GrooverMcTube, 

stevedenver

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## Eric Platt

B flat is very common with winds and brass instruments. If you're playing with them, it's nice to have. And accordion players like all the keys. (Yes, I play with both accordions and wind instruments.)

It's one thing I've improved on while working on mandolin the last year. Playing in a lot of different keys. There are still some I don't like (C minor being my least favorite). But am a lot more versatile now than when it was just guitar.  

All that said, there are certain tunes that I think sound better in certain keys. Am just learning a Danish tune that's usually played in G. Have to learn it in A for a different fiddler. While it works, am not sure I like it as much. But he's the leader so I'll defer to him.

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## jshane

Anything that was arranged for horns originally is likely to be in one of the "flat" keys--  F, Bb, Eb, Ab, etc....... If you aspire beyond fiddle tunes, be prepared for these keys......

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## JeffD

There are more than several traditional Irish tunes in B_b_.  O'Carolan tunes many of them. Once I got used to them i grew to love how they feel to play. I love engaging the pinky on that E_b_. It gets to be kind of fun.

But yea, I do get it. Upon first look I say to myself, "are you serious?"

There are some fiddle tunes in E as well that I have grown to love. Looking at those four ugly sharps is kind of intimidating, but, like playing in two flats, soon enough it gets kind of fun to work your hand that way.

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## RickPick

Thanks, folks. It might be making sense now, or at least, your comments make it seem worthwhile to just learn how to play these tunes in B Flat and B! Maybe I'll understand it some day.....

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## JonZ

> Keying those tunes up leads to the high lonesome sound that hardcore grassers seek. The higher pitch lends a more cutting tone to the singers. Thats why the kids these days always want to mash it up to Bd or B.


Those keys also explains why they were lonesome.

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## Ivan Kelsall

A Cafe member began a thread asking the same thing about songs / tunes in the key of 'E'. Why not ??. If you want to be ''as good as you can be'',you need to nail tunes in every key that comes along. Two of Bill Monroe's 'classic' tunes - ''Northern White Clouds'' & ''Southern Comfort'' are in the key of E (please forgive me if i have either of those 2 tunes wrong - i'm on the verge of recovery from a massive dose of bronchial flu, & my brain's a tad scambled from all the coughing).  One of my favourite practice tunes,is the title track one from Alison Brown's CDs ''Fair Weather'' - in Ab.

  Here's another favourite practice tune of mine - ''Bootleg John'' in the Key of B .I began playing mandolin 13 years ago,after i'd been playing banjo for 42 years. I'm 100 % self taught & i did what i did on banjo - tried to play everything,even if sometimes it was bit above the level of my playing skill. I'd maybe get 10 % of it,but the next time around,i'd get another 10% of it = it builds on itself,
            Ivan :Wink:

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## Mandoplumb

I heard that someone on the same concert as Monroe said in passing that a certain song he sang suited his voice I a different key but the band coundn't play in that key. Monroe told him he needed to fire that band and hire one that could. I agree the band should back the singer where it suits. That is the reason we should be able to play in B Bb E or even Fb if that's where the singer sings.

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Ivan Kelsall, 

mee, 

stevedenver

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## ralph johansson

> I'm working with Jack Tottle's Bluegrass Mandolin (great book). He provides music with some breaks in dot and tab form for Careless Love, but the music is in the key of B flat. Same with Nine Pounds Hammer, but in the key of B. I fiddle a bit and understand the advantage to fiddlers of playing in the keys of A or D. And I understand the reason to use a capo on guitar to suit the singers's range, yet let the guitarist use the C or G shape chords. But what's the reason for keys like B or B Flat or F? When I learn the breaks, I can't play with anyone else in another key, since some/many of the notes in the breaks use open strings.  Just curious....



Why use these keys? Because they're there.

Not sure what you´re saying in the last sentence, but ultimately, of course, you're supposed to create (and even improvise) your own solos. And in a Bluegrass band you're supposed to master at least any key from B (2 flats) to B natural (5 sharps). Sometimes the key is dictated by the desired range for the vocalist, at other times by the special possibilities offered by this or that key. 

The key of B natural is something of a signature key in Bluegrass and I'm not sure how that came about. The earliest Monroe example I know is Goodbye Old Pal (by Cliff Carlisle) recorded with the accordion band and I can hear no other reason for that key except that it seemed to suit Monroe's voice. Comparing the two recorded versions of Georgia Rose (the first in C, the second in B) I tend to say that Monroe was *tuned* in B, something to do with resonances and breaks between registers. However, today that key is favored by fiddlers and mandolin players more because of the nice blues pentatonics involving the open d, a, and e strings.

The keys of F and Bb sit *very* naturally on the mandolin fretboard, as does Eb. But you won't know until you've tried them. I suppose mainly guitarists oppose Eb because they get a fuller sound in E.

The Baker quote was a joke, really. He was certainly at home in that key and Monroe's fiddlers took far more solos than Monroe on songs in B. And, well, Bb: when Bill Keith brought Sailor's Hornpipe to the band Baker *insisted* that it be played in Bb (try it!)

For some good, fairly simple, mandolin in B I suggest you consult Monroe's I Saw the Light album, IIRC four of the songs are in B. The songs on that album are included in a JSP box, as part of disc D, 1957-1958. You can easily find it on Spotify. Start with I Am a Pilgrim.

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DataNick, 

DavidKOS, 

Mark Wilson

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## DavidKOS

Wait until you get to Db and Ab!

One thing about playing jazz, I've gotten used to playing mandolin in any key. Of course it's not the same as trying to play a Bluegrass break in B at top tempo.....

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MikeEdgerton, 

T.D.Nydn

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## MikeEdgerton

I am the artists formerly known as MikFb FbdgFbrton

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DavidKOS, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Jim Garber, 

Mark Gunter, 

Reywas, 

Timbofood

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## David L

> If you're ever going to play in a band or backup for a female singer get ready for those keys. A, Bb,& B. They are commonly in female singers voice range, also be prepared for capos by the singer being on ANY fret, and progressions from your wildest dreams or nightmares. Especially when they say " I just wrote this new one last week"
> Dave


Female singers don't use A, Bb, and B anymore than male singers. There are "high" female singers (sopranos) and "low" female singers (altos), just like there are male tenors and basses. Sopranos tend to sing an octave above tenors and altos tend to sing an octave above basses. All the keys are covered.

Even given that a person is a "high" singer (soprano or tenor), that doesn't limit their keys, just the key for a particular song. Some songs have a range of about an octave from the tonic up to the next tonic. Other songs have an octave range from one dominant to the next higher dominant. They would need to be in different keys for the same singer.

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DavidKOS, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Mark Gunter

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## DavidKOS

When backing singers in jazz situations, all bets were off. Tunes that were usually played in F or Bb would wind up in D, as the singers picked the keys based on their vocal ranges not the comfort of band members.

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Dave Martin

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## Mark Gunter

> E or even Fb ...





> I am the artists formerly known as MikFb FbdgFbrton


SwFbFbt!

You guys are hilarious  :Laughing:

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DavidKOS, 

MikeEdgerton

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## RickPick

Again, thanks for all these helpful responses. I suppose one of the characteristics of BG that distinguishes it from old time mountain/country music is its use of more sophisticated, jazz-like musicality. And I come to BG from that far more simple 3-chord keys of G, C, D, and A background. Ralph, what I meant by the last sentence of my original post is that, once I learn to play the breaks as Tottle lays them out, they aren't something I can transpose/translate into any other key except the key in which Tottle used. It's not like I'm learning breaks that can simply be shifted up the neck a fret or three to get into the desired key. 
    But I see now that a) I wanna learn to play IN those keys and b) it's all about gaining more musical skill on the fretboard.

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DavidKOS

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## Timbofood

Thank goodness I’ve learned not to take a drink of anything before I start reading ANY of Mikes Posts! 
That last one really caught me off Guard! You sir, are a card and must be dealt with!!

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MikeEdgerton

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## JeffD

Another way to think about it all (not a substitute, but a parallel and useful path), is to think in terms of moveable patterns.

So with ideas like FFcP and closed position chords and double stops it is possible to play scales and chords, and melodies and harmonies, indeed to be able to improvise, in every key, by figuring it out once, in closed position in one key.

So I often find I don't really know, (and sometimes don't care) what key I am in. I am in the key of right now, right here, and from right here I know where the I, IV, and V chords are, (the others too of course), and I know some cool interesting ways to get from the V back to the I chord also in moveable patterns, and some cool transition sounding double stops and harmonies.

So if I find that I am playing all this stuff today one fret higher than when I do these things normally playing, say, in A, well, lookie here I am playing in B_b_. Imagine if I knew how to play in B_b_. Or whatever. You get it.

Again this is not a substitute for knowing how to play in every key. But FFcP and moveable positions and patterns will get you playing in every key, before you know how.  :Wink:  Its a massive cheat code.

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Dave Martin, 

doublestoptremolo, 

wormpicker

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## DavidKOS

> Again, thanks for all these helpful responses.* I suppose one of the characteristics of BG that distinguishes it from old time mountain/country music is its use of more sophisticated, jazz-like musicality. And I come to BG from that far more simple 3-chord keys of G, C, D, and A background.* 
> .......
>     But I see now that a) I wanna learn to play IN those keys and b) it's all about gaining more musical skill on the fretboard.


Good point about BG music as distinguished from old-time.

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## Jim Broyles

> Female singers don't use A, Bb, and B anymore than male singers. There are "high" female singers (sopranos) and "low" female singers (altos), just like there are male tenors and basses. Sopranos tend to sing an octave above tenors and altos tend to sing an octave above basses. All the keys are covered.
> 
> Even given that a person is a "high" singer (soprano or tenor), that doesn't limit their keys, just the key for a particular song. Some songs have a range of about an octave from the tonic up to the next tonic. Other songs have an octave range from one dominant to the next higher dominant. They would need to be in different keys for the same singer.


I learned something about my own singing about ten years ago when I was a regular attender at a fairly high-level bluegrass jam. I have a baritone singing voice and I can't get that high as a rule, so I used to call songs mostly in G if I had to sing them, which the caller usually has to do, unless the caller is requesting a song by another member. Anyway, I digress...

One night I called, "Think of What You've Done" by The Stanley Brothers, in G. The banjo player, who is an excellent player, apparently knew my range better that I did, and proceeded to suggest that I sing it in B. I was completely surprised by how easy it was to sing the entire song very comfortably in what I had always figured was too high a key for my voice. 

I can't sing everything in B, but the range of pitches in that song seem to "lay" right in my vocal range. I do not hesitate to try songs in higher keys now. Ya never know!

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Gary Hudson

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## JonZ

How many singers does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Just one to hold the bulb, while the world revolves around her.

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DavidKOS

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## Mandobart

> Keying those tunes up leads to the “high lonesome” sound that hardcore grassers seek. The higher pitch lends a more cutting tone to the singers. That’s why the kids these days always want to “mash it up” to Bd or B.


If its "high lonesome" in B it'd be higher and lonesomer in C.....

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## rockies

I don't know if my observations when listening to the Monroe's and other traditional bluegrass bands (old and new). Though it seems to me those keys seem to be chosen more for the upper range of the high tenor harmony singer then for the melody singer. This is just an observation and may just be my really old ears hearing things other than the other noises I seem to hear !!
Dave

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doublestoptremolo, 

Timbofood

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## stevedenver

> I learned something about my own singing about ten years ago when I was a regular attender at a fairly high-level bluegrass jam. I have a baritone singing voice and I can't get that high as a rule, so I used to call songs mostly in G if I had to sing them, which the caller usually has to do, unless the caller is requesting a song by another member. Anyway, I digress...
> 
> One night I called, "Think of What You've Done" by The Stanley Brothers, in G. The banjo player, who is an excellent player, apparently knew my range better that I did, and proceeded to suggest that I sing it in B. I was completely surprised by how easy it was to sing the entire song very comfortably in what I had always figured was too high a key for my voice. 
> 
> I can't sing everything in B, but the range of pitches in that song seem to "lay" right in my vocal range. I do not hesitate to try songs in higher keys now. Ya never know!


This!
This is why B or Bb.

I love singing in these keys.
And, its not hard to do so on mando.

As i sing more, im learning that while i can sing in several keys, only one or two will really fit, and give me money notes in the entire melody/harmony ranges.

While we can all get very obsessive about instruments and instrumentals, ....

yes, the song DOES revolve around the singer, like it or not.

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Gary Hudson, 

Timbofood

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## BrianWilliam

Variety

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## farmerjones

Until we get so high and so lonesome we arrive at Alison Krause's high G. So now we're back in banjer key.

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MikeEdgerton

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## Ranald

My sweetheart, who's a singer, tells me that many singers say that B flat is the universal key for the human voice (she wasn't committing to this idea herself). If that's true, why does it seem that no inventor or improver of stringed instruments ever took it into account?  :Smile:

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## FLATROCK HILL

> Even given that a person is a "high" singer (soprano or tenor), that doesn't limit their keys, just the key for a particular song.


Someone gets it.

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## Timbofood

44 posts and no one has said...
“Because it’s there!”
I kind of like playing in those keys part of a night, good stretch of the fingers!

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## DavidKOS

> 44 posts and no one has said...
> “Because it’s there!”


I guess there has to be something between A and C.

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Reywas, 

Timbofood

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## foldedpath

Here's a fun tidbit about Bb and "fiddle tunes." There are darned few Irish/Scottish trad fiddle tunes in Bb (unless you're trying to play along with Highland Bagpipes which are kinda/sorta in Bb). It's not even a key listed in the search field for the tune database at thesession.org. 

However! There are some fiddle tunes commonly played in B flat's relative minor of Gm (or G dorian). Probably due to the way the scale fits so nicely in first position on fiddle, or the range of whistles and flutes. So don't be alarmed if you come across a fiddle tune in Gm/Gdor. They usually lay out very nicely on the fingerboard.

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## Jim Broyles

> 44 posts and no one has said...
> “Because it’s there!”
> I kind of like playing in those keys part of a night, good stretch of the fingers!


Post #25.

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## Eric Platt

G minor does lay out nicely on the mandolin fingerboard.  And both G minor and B flat are somewhat common keys in Scandinavian music. Especially Finnish. 

Said it before, my personal key demon is C minor. Just have a difficult time transposing to that key.  Seems to me it was designed for either accordion or nyckelharpa to show off. Thankfully have yet to play with a singer who likes that key.

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DavidKOS

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## Pete Martin

Its not hard to learn to play in all keys.  You just gotta PRACTICE it  :Disbelief:  :Disbelief:  :Disbelief:

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Dave Martin, 

DavidKOS, 

Glassweb

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## Glassweb

> Its not hard to learn to play in all keys.  You just gotta PRACTICE it


Like pete says!

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## Timbofood

> Post #25.


I missed that, thanks Jim.

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## jshane

> My sweetheart, who's a singer, tells me that many singers say that B flat is the universal key for the human voice (she wasn't committing to this idea herself). If that's true, why does it seem that no inventor or improver of stringed instruments ever took it into account?


Well, the horn world sure did...

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DavidKOS, 

Ranald

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## Eric Platt

Edit - does not add to discussion.

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## Dave Martin

I find Bb to lay on the mandolin frets very well.  You have G open, A open, D open, and chord shapes move well in the first 5 or 6 frets.  Chord along on Boulder to Birmingham in that key, you'll see what I mean.

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DavidKOS, 

lowtone2

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## Denny Gies

Isn't the simple answer "That Bill did it in those keys"?

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Timbofood

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## ampyjoe

> I find Bb to lay on the mandolin frets very well.  You have G open, A open, D open, and chord shapes move well in the first 5 or 6 frets.  Chord along on Boulder to Birmingham in that key, you'll see what I mean.


Those handy open strings in Bb become flat 3rd and flat 7th in B making B a good key for more bluesy playing. And for tunes that use the flat VII chord, it's a A, which gives lots of open strings. I still find B difficult to play in, but I think the open strings in B have lots of potential depending on the tune.

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## Relio

> I think Mike's Satan explanation serves best. I'd have suggested "perversity" myself..... But WHY -- in a mandolin instruction book -- would Tottle pick these keys to present tunes for mandolin learners? He even explains where guitar players should place capos and what "corresponding" chords to play, knowing they would never play directly IN those keys. I guess I still don't understand. Why wouldn't he teach the songs in G or D or A or whatever, and then tell the guitarist where to put the capo  (uh oh, that's not what I meant). I've heard C referred to as "boring old C" -- presumably because it has no sharps or flats. But what's the appeal of BFlat or B. Is there any "music theory" advantage to these keys?                    BTW, I enjoy learning to do things I don't understand, but I'd enjoy it even more if I understood why I'm learning it!


If a singer chooses a song, and the best key for their vocal range is B or Bb then a mandolin player needs to play in that key. I play with a banjo player that gets annoyed anytime we play in a key where he can't play out of G shapes. Don't be like him...

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Dave Martin, 

jesserules

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## RobH

Also if you want to play a lot of songs in relative minor keys you need to know the key of Bb to play in Gm, F for Dm and Eb for Cm.
For example Lonesome Moonlight Waltz in Dm
Rob

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Beanzy, 

DavidKOS

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## Phil Goodson

> ...... But WHY -- in a mandolin instruction book -- would Tottle pick these keys to present tunes for mandolin learners? ....it!


Don't you think he might have put them in those keys because he thought that you would WANT to learn to play in all keys?
He's trying to teach, not to give you a plug-in break for your next jam. :Smile:

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AlanN, 

DavidKOS, 

jesserules

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## Eric Platt

Just to throw a wrench into everything, don't forget the other instruments. If, say, you're playing with A 2 row C/F accordion, the key choices will probably be different than with a 120 bass keyboard accordion. Or hardangfiddle. They are often tuned in an A variant and are generally limited in key choice. 

That's another reason to learn all the keys.

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DavidKOS

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## AlanN

> Don't you think he might have put them in those keys because he thought that you would WANT to learn to play in all keys?
> He's trying to teach, not to give you a plug-in break for your next jam.


I bought that book when I first started playing, precisely because 

- there were hardly any other bluegrass mandolin books out there, and
- it featured a real breadth of styles, keys, tunes, techniques.

Around the same time, I picked up Jethro's book, Tottle's Back Road Mandolin LP (with the tab sheet inside the album sleeve) and subscribed to Mandolin World News. I was off to the races.

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Phil Goodson

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## T.D.Nydn

> Don't you think he might have put them in those keys because he thought that you would WANT to learn to play in all keys?
> He's trying to teach, not to give you a plug-in break for your next jam.


Not really,,there's no mention of anything like that in the book,,I think he wrote the tunes simply in the key they're most commonly played in,or else in the original key the tune or song was wrote in...

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## Phil Goodson

> Not really,,there's no mention of anything like that in the book,,I think he wrote the tunes simply in the key they're most commonly played in,or else in the original key the tune or song was wrote in...


Well, if so, that also answers the OP's question.

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T.D.Nydn

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## DavidKOS

> Just to throw a wrench into everything, don't forget the other instruments. If, say, you're playing with A 2 row C/F accordion, the key choices will probably be different than with a 120 bass keyboard accordion. Or hardangfiddle. They are often tuned in an A variant and are generally limited in key choice. 
> 
> That's another reason to learn all the keys.


I've played a lot with accordion players - from the 120 bass piano accordions to one row Cajun boxes - and what you say is very true.

I often have to transpose a tune to whatever key the guy with the 3 row button box can get all the notes and chords!

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Eric Platt

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## ralph johansson

> My sweetheart, who's a singer, tells me that many singers say that B flat is the universal key for the human voice (she wasn't committing to this idea herself). If that's true, why does it seem that no inventor or improver of stringed instruments ever took it into account?


They did.

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## ralph johansson

> Female singers don't use A, Bb, and B anymore than male singers. There are "high" female singers (sopranos) and "low" female singers (altos), just like there are male tenors and basses. Sopranos tend to sing an octave above tenors and altos tend to sing an octave above basses. All the keys are covered.
> 
> Even given that a person is a "high" singer (soprano or tenor), that doesn't limit their keys, just the key for a particular song. Some songs have a range of about an octave from the tonic up to the next tonic. Other songs have an octave range from one dominant to the next higher dominant. They would need to be in different keys for the same singer.




Indeed, the key is not the range. And frankly, some singers, especially women are known to use a capo on every song, not to suit their voices but to shorten the scale of the instrument.

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## ralph johansson

> Here's a fun tidbit about Bb and "fiddle tunes." There are darned few Irish/Scottish trad fiddle tunes in Bb (unless you're trying to play along with Highland Bagpipes which are kinda/sorta in Bb). It's not even a key listed in the search field for the tune database at thesession.org. 
> 
> However! There are some fiddle tunes commonly played in B flat's relative minor of Gm (or G dorian). Probably due to the way the scale fits so nicely in first position on fiddle, or the range of whistles and flutes. So don't be alarmed if you come across a fiddle tune in Gm/Gdor. They usually lay out very nicely on the fingerboard.



I've already mentioned Sailors Hornpipe. My main reference for fiddle tunes, as a beginner on the mandolin, was Howdy Forrester's Fancy Fiddlin' Country Style, which has two pieces in B; High Level Hornpipe and Clarinet Polka (a duet with Jimmy Riddle's harmonica).

----------

DavidKOS

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## ralph johansson

> Isn't the simple answer "That Bill did it in those keys"?



That may be true of B natural, but Bb really is a standard key on violin and mandolin. And for some reason Monroe didn't play much on songs in those keys. E.g., on Cheyenne he solos only over the g minor bridge. There's a  more of his mandolin on gospel numbers like Wicked Path of Sin and Life's Railway to Heaven

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DavidKOS

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## ralph johansson

> If a singer chooses a song, and the best key for their vocal range is B or Bb then a mandolin player needs to play in that key. I play with a banjo player that gets annoyed anytime we play in a key where he can't play out of G shapes. Don't be like him...


A banjo player of course should be able to play in the keys of C, D, E, and F in G tuning, without a capo, possibly after retuning the 5th string (but a friend of mine says that E works splendidly in G tuning, without retuning.) Of course, if he can handle C uncapoed, he could also handle D, capoed at the 2nd fret, etc. but I believe in the long run it is best to play these keys open.

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DavidKOS

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## Mandoplumb

> A banjo player of course should be able to play in the keys of C, D, E, and F in G tuning, without a capo, possibly after retuning the 5th string (but a friend of mine says that E works splendidly in G tuning, without retuning.) Of course, if he can handle C uncapoed, he could also handle D, capoed at the 2nd fret, etc. but I believe in the long run it is best to play these keys open.


I've been around good banjo players 50 years or more, and seen many professionals in concert. Don Reno is the only one I've seen play those keys without a capo. Of course I'm talking bluegrass banjo players.

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DavidKOS

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## AlanN

> I play with a banjo player that gets annoyed anytime we play in a key where he can't play out of G shapes. Don't be like him...


He comes to your jam, too? Man, he gets around.

If the tune is in D, E, F, he clamps at 7, 9, 10 - what a waste of real estate. And he kind of slinks around to the back, as if he knows his shortcomings are obvious. I quit trying to edjookate him long ago...actually, quit going to that jam, for that and myriad other reasons

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## AlanN

> That may be true of B natural, but Bb really is a standard key on violin and mandolin. And for some reason Monroe didn't play much on songs in those keys. E.g., on Cheyenne he solos only over the g minor bridge. There's a  more of his mandolin on gospel numbers like Wicked Path of Sin and Life's Railway to Heaven


Bill had his inadequacies, no doubt, all couched in his stylistic thing. Can you say 'crosspicking'...?

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## Willie Poole

Many years ago a well know professional mandolin player told me, "When you learn a new song, learn it without striking any open strings and then you will be able to play it in any key".....It makes sense to me...Like fiddle players, use one finger like a capo and plant it firmly on the fingerboard and stretch if you have to to get to the other notes...

    Practice, practice, practice...

    Willie

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DavidKOS, 

doublestoptremolo

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## DavidKOS

> Many years ago a well know professional mandolin player told me, "When you learn a new song, learn it without striking any open strings and then you will be able to play it in any key".


It's called "closed fingering". A no-open-strings pattern that can be moved anywhere on the fingerboard.

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## DavidKOS

> I've been around good banjo players 50 years or more, and seen many professionals in concert. *Don Reno* is the only one I've seen play those keys without a capo. Of course I'm talking bluegrass banjo players.


Thanks for mentioning Reno. With his skills he can do what you say.

It comes from his guitar-oriented approach to banjo.

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## ralph johansson

> I've already mentioned Sailors Hornpipe. My main reference for fiddle tunes, as a beginner on the mandolin, was Howdy Forrester's Fancy Fiddlin' Country Style, which has two pieces in B; High Level Hornpipe and Clarinet Polka (a duet with Jimmy Riddle's harmonica).



Sorry, I meant Bb here.

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## ralph johansson

> I've been around good banjo players 50 years or more, and seen many professionals in concert. Don Reno is the only one I've seen play those keys without a capo. Of course I'm talking bluegrass banjo players.


Well, I've played with a few banjo players; among my numbers was a blues original in E with a sudden switch to G which the banjo player of our group handled without capoing or retuning. C is certainly accessible open, in G tuning, possibly after retuning the d string - there's also an open C tuning: g-c g c e (not sure which of the two Scruggs used on Toy Heart). Then there's also the D tuning (5th string in f# or a) but to my ears it sounds very special.

Of course, almost all banjo players would use a capo in A, Bb or B.

----------

doublestoptremolo

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## Mandoplumb

> Well, I've played with a few banjo players; among my numbers was a blues original in E with a sudden switch to G which the banjo player of our group handled without capoing or retuning. C is certainly accessible open, in G tuning, possibly after retuning the d string - there's also an open C tuning: g-c g c e (not sure which of the two Scruggs used on Toy Heart). Then there's also the D tuning (5th string in f# or a) but to my ears it sounds very special.Of course, almost all banjo players would use a capo in A, Bb or B.



Wit very few exceptions ( certain songs) all banjo players use a capo in E a few in C ( depending on song) and a lot in D. Bluegrass banjo players ( which I said was what I had most experience with) as a rule seldom retune, that's old time that uses a different tuning for each song. BG banjo pickers have enough trouble with the one tuning. Even Don Reno played most of his driving instrumentals in G even though he took breaks in any key without a capo. Truth is a banjo just sounds "'grassier" in open chords.

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DavidKOS, 

doublestoptremolo

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## doublestoptremolo

I play banjo, and I usually do the following:

G, A, B-flat, B: play out of G position open or with capo

C: either capo on 5th fret and play out of G or lower the fourth string to C. I think J.D. did "Toy Heart" in drop-C (gCGBD), capoed at 4 (in E). Don't know what Earl did but typically bluegrass banjo players don't use the double C tuning (gCGCD) that much.

D, E, F: play out of D in open G tuning with or without a capo, but capoing the 5th string. The great benefit of this is you have the low tonic note on the fourth string, which you wouldn't have if you played out of C in G tuning capoed.

Like Mandoplumb notes, the driving, grassier sounds are more available in the G formation, at least for me. The slower the song the less likely I'll capo at all.

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stevedenver

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## doublestoptremolo

I think Willie's advice is spot on. The more you use closed positions, it becomes a more matter of intervals and less of keys. You know where the tonic is, where the fifth below that is, where the third is, etc. You know the notes of the scale that correspond to the chords. So playing a break in D-flat or G-flat isn't that much harder than playing in D or G.

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## UsuallyPickin

Personally I draw the line at E flat and A flat and D flat. When those keys pop up I go get coffee. I don't have to play a break on every song. Not a question of anything other than to me  it  is more trouble than it's worth. Yes moving around in closed positions on an instrument tuned in fifths makes anything accessible. But keep in mind a capo in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing . . . . .R/

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Jess L.

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## Bertram Henze

> But keep in mind a capo in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing . . . . .R/


Capos don't transpose songs. People do.
(now where is my corner...)  :Grin:

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Timbofood, 

UsuallyPickin

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## Jess L.

> Personally I draw the line at E flat and *A flat* and *D flat*. When those keys pop up I go get coffee. ...


 :Grin:  I'd always wondered why there were so many hymns and religious songs in *A flat*, seemed annoying and illogical, why would anyone design tunes in such a freaky weird key? 

But it turns out there were practical reasons for it after all, historically, seems it didn't have anything to do with voice at all,  :Disbelief:  but rather was a concession to players of a different musical instrument, the *organ* - according to a poster named "sfp1954" at The Organ Forum: 

_"The easiest bass pedals to play 1 and 5 on (oom pah oom pah) are the black pedals. 
In addition the left foot naturally swings forward and lands on the A-Flat making it the easiest bass pedal to locate. 
So that makes keys like Ab, Gb and Db the easiest to play simple bass lines on. ...
"If you've grown up playing blues on the piano it does seem totally awkward but it makes sense when viewed from an organ perspective."_
I haven't played an organ since a zillion years ago (my piano teacher also had an organ which I briefly took a few lessons on just for something different) and I'd forgotten they even _had_ pedals until I saw that post, but now it kinda makes sense I guess... at least for all the older music that was written when organs were more common. 

But now that organs are not exactly common, and guitars etc _are_ common, it seems silly for anyone to insist on using the 'original' keys as if those were somehow 'better' (unless the vocalist just can't handle it in any other key). Ab, Db, etc may have been better for the main instrument of an earlier era, but now, not so much. Organs - all those flat keys. Guitars - key of G, C, D, A, etc.  :Grin:   :Smile:

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DavidKOS

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## ProfChris

Don't forget the problem of multiple singers, particularly singing harmony. I attempt harmonies with my friend Cat, and we have a song which is manageable (but just a bit low for me) in C, and manageable (but just a bit high for her) in D. I should probably rearrange it for Db (or C# if I really want to deter anyone else from playing along).

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Jess L.

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## Jess L.

> Don't forget the problem of multiple singers, particularly singing harmony. ...


That's a good point.

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## Mark Gunter

> I'd always wondered why there were so many *hymns and religious songs* in A flat
> ...
> 
> But now that *organs are not exactly common*, and guitars etc _are_ common, it seems silly for anyone to insist on using the 'original' keys


May be a local or geographical thing, as well as a denominational thing, but it seems to me that the only place where organs are common for public singing accompaniment is in churches where the old hymns and religious songs are commonly sung. Organs are not exactly uncommon in churches. Churches without organists who use the old hymns and songs usually have pianists, who seem to have little difficulty with those "organ keys".

Seems to me that the churches that prefer more contemporary guitar band music play more contemporary songs, with the occasional nod to an old hymn.

I don't spend much time in church these days nor sample a great many churches, denominations, etc. but it doesn't seem strange at all to me that churches who use the old hymns also prefer the old traditional instrumentation in their services.

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## T.D.Nydn

I don't see the problem playing in Ab (G#),,if you play with closed positions,Ab is one of best Keyes ,major or minor,everything is based on the first fret across all strings,once you get used to it,it is not that hard...

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DavidKOS

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## Beanzy

I get a lot of Gm (& Dm) tunes when playing Nordic fiddle tunes, those being related to Bb (&F). They do lend themselves to droning on the higher open string from the melody to give quite an interesting sound.
I also come across them when playing east Galway style tunes from fiddlers like Paddy Fahey & Mairtín Byrnes. 
I wondered why there was this pocket in the middle with no seeming connection to anywhere else, then found Caoimhin MacAoidh had an interesting take on why that occurred;”Paddy Fahey often told me that during the end of the last century and the first decade or two of this century the local fiddlers of east Galway were always very anxious to play with the famed uileann piper Dinny Delaney. Dinney's chanter was pitched in B flat. Rather than tune the fiddles down to the chanter, the players regularly re-learned the tunes in flat keys to play with him without tuning down. As such, the local players became highly conversant in playing flat keys. When they started to compose themselves or re-arrange tunes in more common keys, they would often opt for playing them in flat keys as after only a few years, the "wistful flat key sound" was very much the aim of players.“ certainly seems like a plausible reason. 

I really do like playing in Gm & F with drones. B isn’t really much of an issue if you just think ‘stick everything sharp’ & forget about it, I’ll sometimes just shift a 1/2 or whole position up and it feels like there’s nothing much different going on.

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DavidKOS, 

Jess L.

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## Jess L.

> ... Churches without organists who use the *old hymns* and songs usually have *pianists*, who seem to have little difficulty with those "organ keys". ...


What I've seen... You're right that a decent pianist has no problem with any of the keys, but there can be problems if someone (new pastor or whatever) comes in and tries to start a new worship band with guitars 'n' stuff - playing *along* with the existing pianist.  :Disbelief:  Same hymns, no new material. So everyone has their capos deployed, oughta be ok... 

The guitar chord book has all the songs in the same original *key* as the pianist's scores, *but* the guitar book chords (same publisher) are simplified, sometimes significantly different than the piano score. The pianist might be changing chords on every note in some songs (whether he was aware of it or not was another matter - he was just reading notes off the page), whereas the guitar strummers were busily playing the chords indicated in the guitar book, but the guitar chords _don't match_ the piano chords except for only a small portion of each measure. 

Result: clashy dissonance. 

But I guess that's unrelated to 'weird' keys, it's just a problem with general musicianship (and printed publications of questionable usefulness). 




> ... Seems to me that the churches that prefer more contemporary guitar band music play more contemporary songs, with the occasional nod to an old hymn. ...


This is one of the few instances where it would be nice to live in a more populated area, that had more choices. I've only seen two modern church bands in this entire county. Ironically, the most-modern music (drums, electric bass, guitars) was in the most-conservative church which isn't quite my cup of tea although the music was great. Another church has an accordion player who actually sounds quite nice, surprisingly, I wouldn't have thought so until I heard it. Anyway...  :Whistling:

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## Mark Gunter

Thanks for the info, I couldn't speak to "geographical ... denominational" differences. I can say that when I attend services, I much prefer the old hymns and they could lose the guitars, wouldn't bother me at all. Unfortunately, living in Dallas for 30 years, that's not the trend. I can also enjoy a great band of rock musicians rocking out, but it seems the problem in Texas and much of Louisiana is the opposite of what you experience in the churches I've visited. The old hymns to organ or piano accompaniment takes a back seat to Contemporary Christian music, even if they have to pipe in backing tracks and forego the band. I love a service that plays the old hymns as I said, and use the band musicians for "special" music performances. I've played specials in churches myself in a variety of ways and styles. Give me the old time hymns and piano for the rest of the service. But then, I'm an old geezer, apparently, and the world belongs to the young folk.

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FLATROCK HILL

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## Mandoplumb

Mark what you are describing is happening all over. I live in Va. And it's hard to find a church that playes the old great hymns. The fad now is 7-11 songs. They have 7 words you sing them 11 times.

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allenhopkins, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Mark Gunter

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## FLATROCK HILL

> Mark what you are describing is happening all over. I live in Va. And it's hard to find a church that playes the old great hymns. The fad now is 7-11 songs. They have 7 words you sing them 11 times.


Same here in Ohio. Been going pretty much every Sunday for 20 years to the same traditional-style church. (I won't name it here, but they're connected to the guy on the cylindrical oat-cereal container.) They used the hymnals when I started there. The books are still there in there wooden oak slots but rarely if ever opened. 

Now it's those "7-11" songs you described with those seven words projected on a screen. And it seems the composers are really enamored with suspended chords. The "chants" as I call them are never resolved at the end. They just kind of leave you hanging there. 

I put up with it for the sake of the youngsters. Now if I could just keep them off of my lawn!

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Mark Gunter

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## Timbofood

There are still traditional churches using the 1940 hymnal and 1923 book of Common Prayer out there, look under “Anglican Catholic Church”.
Might take a few miles to get to a parish but, the old tradition is alive there.
I believe there are a couple in VA. Don’t know about Texas.
Current trends in church music tend to leave me cold but, I’m an old geezer too, many years on my knees as an acolyte at Mass have taken their toll.

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Mark Gunter

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## Jess L.

> ... they could lose the guitars, wouldn't bother me at all. ...


Well... the ukulele-style guitar-strumming I can do without, but I do like to hear a good *bass* line  :Mandosmiley:  if it's a talented bass player that knows how to make it groove.  :Smile:  I would be willing to put up with a certain amount of at least semi-competent guitar-strumming if it meant that there'd be a possibility of having a good bass line somewhere in the background.  :Smile:  




> ... Now it's those "7-11" songs you described with those seven words projected on a screen. ...


Projectors, eh, that's fancy.  :Smile:  I've only seen that in one church, it was nice, easy to see and easy to follow. The rest have printed hymnbooks of one sort or another. Incidentally, the reason I bought a tablet a few years ago, is to put those hymns onto the tablet so we could read them - the printed hymnbooks had very small print that most people our age can't see without a darn magnifying glass. Not surprising that some of the other people there just sort of hummed along rather than actually singing words. 




> ... *never resolved* at the end. They just kind of leave you hanging there. ...


One of the things I intensely dislike about many of the old songs in the hymnbooks I've seen around here, I mean the _really_ old stuff from the 1600s or whatever, is that there are way too many sad dreary sounding *minor keys*, ugh so depressing sounding, I have come to hate that! Those old *minor key* songs always *leave the listeners hanging* on a sad eerie note, they *never resolve* to anything except more dismal minor chords. I'm not talking about modal stuff, but just pure straight minor keys. 

I *used* to *not* have such a dislike of minor keys, they were ok once in a while and some of them I even liked somewhat, but after a solid several years of hearing those same depressing church songs every flippin' Sunday I just finally had enough of that minor key sound. Yes the choir was beautiful, they sounded like angels, but awfully sad angels in those dreary minor keys. I thought religion was supposed to give people hope, well we sure as heck weren't getting that vibe from some of that ancient music. 

And the lyrics, a fair number of the songs are absolutely littered with obsolete words that no one uses anymore, sure one can sing them but what do they mean? Might as well be singing (or humming) in a foreign language, just a musical exercise rather than getting something out of the lyrics.  

One song that I *do* like  :Smile:  as far as the beautiful *music*,  :Mandosmiley:  is "Come Thy Fount of Every Blessing", it's very pretty and I do understand the general idea of the lyrics as a positive message, but some of the _words_ require a dictionary... 

"Fount"? "Mount"? "Raise my ebenezer"? What the... ? No it's not double-entendre, although I'd bet that if there had been any young adults in the congregation (there wasn't) they would have thought so. 

So us old folk can puzzle out some of the cryptic meanings by context, or as many do just choose to sing/hum the words even though they don't have a clue what half of it means, which is missing a great deal of the point of having lyrics in the first place. Many examples like that. IMO that stuff needs some updates or outright translations to keep it relevant and current otherwise it serves little purpose other than to turn people off and/or confuse them. IMO.  :Whistling:  If it could even turn off a pair of old folks like us, well I can easily understand why young folks wouldn't be overly impressed with it either, at least not as a steady diet. 

I guess like anything else, it's a *balance* thing. Here there's an overabundance of old obsolete music, and (perhaps coincidentally) many nearly-empty churches as well. Apparently elsewhere in the world, from what y'all have said above, it's the opposite as far as the music. It'd be nice to have some of everything I suppose. 

Edit: 
People's definition of "old" or "traditional" varies. For my man, his idea of traditional hymns (which both of us like) is what _I_ consider to be more modern stuff like "Will The Circle Be Unbroken", "I Love to Tell the Story", "I'll Fly Away", stuff like that. He doesn't like the ancient cryptic-lyric minor-key stuff either.

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## Jim1hays

I believe the devil himself is responsible for those keys plus someone once told me those are the keys most women sing in as well!

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## Mandoplumb

Jl277z to me it's common sense fount is short for fountain, mount short for mountain, ebenezer was a monument used for a "prayer tower". I know I'm different than a lot of people but when I see a word I don't know I try to find out what it means. The lyrics of a lot of songs, secular and religious are poetic and not used often in everyday speech, but I like them better than the stupid or vulgar lyrics used in a lot of today's commercial songs.

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FLATROCK HILL, 

Jess L., 

Mark Gunter

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## Jess L.

> ... to me it's common sense ... *poetic* ...


Well there's half the problem right there -  :Laughing:  I'm *poetically challenged*  :Redface:  even with non-weird poetic words. In years past I was quite good at understanding complicated technical manuals and scientific writings, those were easy and that was my idea of "common sense"  :Smile:  and reading enjoyment, but poetry always went straight over my head. I just always wondered why, if a writer had something to say, why they didn't just say it in plain language, instead of going to great lengths to disguise it behind a bunch of flowery decorative words. Maybe just to make stuff rhyme? But why do they _have_ to rhyme, anyway?  :Whistling:  

Then someone clued me in that sometimes poets (and song writers, and fiction book writers) felt compelled to disguise their true meanings, so as to not be so obvious, in order to evade being hassled (or worse) by the authorities or whoever. Ok I'll buy that, that sounds like a valid reason to hide one's writings behind a smokescreen. 

Ironically, my mother was a poet, and I could never make any sense of her poems either, although she didn't get too carried away with uncommon words - I vaguely recall she used stuff like "e'en" ("even" without the "v") but that's not outlandish (it even shows up in crossword puzzles, can't be _too_ unusual).  :Laughing:  Still never could tell what her poems were actually _about_ though.  :Whistling:  To a non-poet, a lot of poetry just _looks_ like random words strung together to create a rhyme or a rhythm but rather short on actual meaning. It's not that I'm against poetry, rather that a lot of it is just beyond my comprehension. 




> ... fount is short for fountain, mount short for mountain, ebenezer was a monument used for a "prayer tower" ...


Thanks!  :Mandosmiley:  Er, wait, what's a "prayer tower"? Guess I will Google it sometime.  :Smile:  




> ... when I see a word I don't know I try to find out what it means. ...


Yeah but the hard part is *remembering* everything, and finding places to make notes of all the things that need to be remembered, and then being able to _access_ said notes at some point in the future when they're needed again. And then, after quickly refreshing one's memory, being able to remember the meanings long enough to get through the entire song with all 5 stanzas etc. (Gettin' old can definitely be challenging.) 




> ... I like them better than the stupid or vulgar lyrics used in a lot of today's commercial songs.


Understood. I'm not a fan of "vulgar" lyrics either. They're not a new concept though, there were always a few raunchy songs even before rock-n-roll and even before jazz, although apparently not as common or as obvious as now.

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## Jess L.

I have a dumb question: When "standard pitch" got changed (to modern A440, and weren't there also other changes sometime earlier??), what if any effect did that have any on the keys that singers preferred? So if a lot of modern singers like, say, the key of B or Bb or whatever, what key would that have been under the older pitch standards? If I was 20 again I'd probably be able to calculate that, but alas my computational skills are not so great anymore either.

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## Mark Gunter

> To a non-poet, a lot of poetry just _looks_ like random words strung together to create a rhyme or a rhythm but rather short on actual meaning. It's not that I'm against poetry, rather that a lot of it is just beyond my comprehension.


Maybe some poetry is disguised messages as you mentioned, but I think some poetry is just clever use of language for the sake of being clever, or amusing ... or for painting verbal pictures and evoking certain emotions.

Have you tried reading Browning's _My Last Duchess_? _Ivan Ivanovich_? _The Pied Piper of Hamelin_? I don't think you can accuse Browning of being "short on meaning."

And if those leave you cold somehow, check out _Jean Desprez_ by Robert W. Service, you can read it here: https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/jean-desprez/

Some of Service's poems are so lyrical that Country Joe McDonald put several of them to music and put out an album of them in 1971, including _The Ballad of Jean Desprez.
_
And what about _The Road Not Taken_ by Robert Frost? https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poe...road-not-taken

I couldn't imagine life without poetry - it would be like a life without art, without music, without color. The best prose is prose that borders on poetry. Just another opinion.

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## DavidKOS

> I have a dumb question: When "standard pitch" got changed (to modern A440, and weren't there also other changes sometime earlier??), what if any effect did that have any on the keys that singers preferred? So if a lot of modern singers like, say, the key of B or Bb or whatever, what key would that have been under the older pitch standards? If I was 20 again I'd probably be able to calculate that, but alas my computational skills are not so great anymore either.


Actually, before pitch standards of A440, pitch was both higher AND lower than modern pitch:

https://www.piano-tuners.org/history/pitch.html

"In the fifteenth century Arnold Schlick of Heidelberg, gave us the pitch of the time as being A.502. An Organ in Hepusdat dated 1351 with a pitch of A505 Scholars who have studied historical instruments claim that the pitch of the note "A" in the seventeenth century may have varied from 373.7 Hz to 402.9 Hz. "

https://www.wam.hr/sadrzaj/us/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf

'To take Germany prior to 1600 as an example, organ pitch there is thought to
have varied from a high of A=567 Hz for the first simple pipe organs of the Middle Ages
to a low of A=377 Hz for the early modern German organ around 1511.1"

http://capionlarsen.com/history-pitch/

" For example, an English pitchpipe from 1720 plays the A above middle C at 380 Hz, while the organs played by Johann Sebastian Bach in Hamburg, Leipzig and Weimar were pitched at A=480 Hz, a difference of around four semitones. In other words, the A produced by the 1720 pitchpipe would have been at the same frequency as the F on one of Bach’s organs."

There was also "high" and "low" pitch band instruments:

"In Germany, the bands and orchestras in the mid- to late 1800’s played in a pitch where A=440 Hz.Eb vs Bb This is the standard “low pitch” of today (which later became known as “American Standard Pitch” when it finally came to use in the US). However, at the same time, bands and orchestras in France, England and the US were playing in “high pitch” (A=452.5 Hz). In fact, in the US, “military high pitch” was even higher at A=457 Hz. Around the turn of the century, the use of low pitch became more common in the US, France and England. However, as it hadn’t completely replaced high pitch, brass horns were often offered with slides to allow the player to play in either pitch, depending on what was required and what pitch the other instruments were in. In 1917, the American Federation of Musicians formally adopted A=440 as the “official” pitch for the US, and it became known as “American Standard Pitch”."

And there was something called Chorton and kammerton, too. @ different pitches in the same locale.

https://www.idrs.org/publications/co....1.Bukoff.html

"The variants in pitch are labeled, Kammerton/ Cammerton ("chamber pitch") and Chorton ("church pitch") and are used in connection with the pitch level of a specific organ. "

http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/tu...-baroque-times

"In fact there are two regular Baroque Pitches, but you would never guess that from modern recording using 'Baroque' Pitch. Chorton, and Kammerton. Chorton is higher than modern pitch and Kammerton is lower. They are basically a tone apart,"

So it's not as simple as thinking that singers in the past were at a lower pitch. Pitch was all over the place.

----------

bstanish, 

David L, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Jess L., 

T.D.Nydn

----------


## DavidKOS

> Personally I draw the line at E flat and A flat and D flat. When those keys pop up I go get coffee. I don't have to play a break on every song.


I assume you are not playing jazz? You'd be drinking a lot of coffee.

----------

T.D.Nydn

----------


## Tom Wright

I play along with (internet) radio a lot, and most jazz programming does not take me past Bb most of the time, with some Eb thrown in. Lots of F major, plenty of C. I find some rock and blues guitarists like to play in Jimi Hendrix Eb, that is with the guitars tuned down a half step. (Can't they just use lighter strings?)

The stream that carries Folk Alley gives me a lot of singer-songwriters that seem prone to capo indulgence, offering not only Eb/Ab but Gb and Db as very common. Phooey on those lame singers that can't handle a half step, but I can handle their keys fine.

In Bluegrass, B is fine key for that bluesy sound, riffing in sort-of B minor, which uses the open D string, the open A, and the E of course. It's awkward for a happy-major-key sound but lots of BG is leavened with the blues/jazz scales and B is a cool sound, even if Monroe said "There ain't nothing natural about B natural". Second finger on the G string for the tonic is strong, as is index finger on the A for tonic. Maybe it's the 4th finger tonic on the E that annoys people.

I like the contrast that comes from song orders that move from one key to another with attention to the relation between the songs. Different keys can be exploited for that effect.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Jess L.

Mark, thanks, I will look into those things you mentioned.  :Smile:

----------


## Jess L.

> Actually, before pitch standards of A440, pitch was both higher AND lower than modern pitch:
> 
> https://www.piano-tuners.org/history/pitch.html
> 
> "In the fifteenth century Arnold Schlick of Heidelberg, gave us the pitch of the time as being A.502. An Organ in Hepusdat dated 1351 with a pitch of A505 Scholars who have studied historical instruments claim that the pitch of the note "A" in the seventeenth century may have varied from 373.7 Hz to 402.9 Hz. "
> 
> https://www.wam.hr/sadrzaj/us/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf
> 
> 'To take Germany prior to 1600 as an example, organ pitch there is thought to
> ...


Awesome info! I had no idea there was such a wide variation in the standard pitches, or so many of them. Fascinating stuff.  :Mandosmiley:

----------

DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> Awesome info! I had no idea there was such a wide variation in the standard pitches, or so many of them. Fascinating stuff.


When I learned this some years ago, I was as surprised as you. I had known that many Early Music groups tuned down, but that was about it.

Then you find out that there were so many variations in pitch, you understand why we came to a standard of A440.

And while we're at it, A432 or whatever is NOT spiritually better, nor was a Nazi plot, as some internet myths would have you believe.

https://jakubmarian.com/the-432-hz-v...piracy-theory/

----------

Bob Visentin, 

David L, 

Mark Gunter

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## Mandoplumb

Sounds like bluegrass musicians before electronic tuners, everyone had their own "standard".

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## RickPick

Whew! And I thought I was finally getting a handle on things cuz I'm now learning to play White Dove in F instead of D, where I'd always played it previously! It reminds me of just how poorly I play when I come to realize how many other bluegrass and string-band mandolin players have this sort of facility in keys other than G,D,C, and A (and sometimes I'm doubtful of my facility even in those keys....) So little time, so much to learn, but thankfully, with music, there is a dumb-down factor so that even a novice can enjoy playing it.

----------

DavidKOS

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## Dave Martin

I played with a songwriter -- when I was just starting on mando -- who would say, on stage, "I think we are going to capo up one (or down) on this tonight. Ok, ready?"  I made some pretty bad music on a few of those.  Ted's book, and my experience on electric bass, where the only open string I ever struck (unless reaching for or drinking a beer) was low E, really sank home.  And usually, I would drink with my right hand, so the hammer ons were not open strings....low pressure gigs.  I could walk a 6th pattern with left hand, and self medicate with my right.  

The singer gets to decide the key, I think.  If you are not the singer, you are part of the show.  We have to be ready to play our part.  Just let me work on Take 5 in Em instead of Ebm.  I'll get to Ebm sooner or later - or tune down.

----------

DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> Whew! And I thought I was finally getting a handle on things cuz I'm now learning to play White Dove in F instead of D, where I'd always played it previously! It reminds me of just how poorly I play when I come to realize how many other *bluegrass and string-band mandolin players have this sort of facility in keys other than G,D,C, and A* (and sometimes I'm doubtful of my facility even in those keys....) So little time, so much to learn, but thankfully, with music, there is a dumb-down factor so that even a novice can enjoy playing it.


Enjoyment is the key. More important than other issues.

But it is a good idea to take a simple tune, and play it in every key. All of them...G...Ab..A..Bb...B...C...Db....D..and so on

Supposedly that was one way Charlie Parker got so good on sax. He'd take a tune and learn to play it in all 12 (some say 15) keys.




> I played with a songwriter -- when I was just starting on mando -- who would say, on stage, "I think we are going to capo up one (or down) on this tonight. Ok, ready?"


Well, on one hand, we all should be able to play in any key at a moment's notice...but really, for a _show_? a half step? either way?

I always thought a show should be as set as possible, other than solos. It's a SHOW, not a jam session or a coffee house open mike.

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## Dave Martin

I agree.  That was him, not me. I don't (won't) play with him any more, for more reasons than that.

Just came back from seeing Arlo Guthrie.  Very enjoyable, no great musicianship but superb songs and presence.  He made it look like it was off the cuff, but I think every song choice and most of the patter was carefully scripted.

----------

DavidKOS

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## Mark Gunter

> He made it look like it was off the cuff, but I think every song choice and most of the patter was carefully scripted.


Arlo is definitely a consummate pro. I've seen a few performances live and many videotaped, and it appears that his material is "scripted" in the same sense any great comedian's material would be. While he may ad lib a bit with embellishments and delivery, his key phrases and pauses, etc. are repeated nearly verbatim from show to show. The stories play as well as a well worn leather jacket wears.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I played with a songwriter -- when I was just starting on mando -- who would say, on stage, "I think we are going to capo up one (or down) on this tonight. Ok, ready?"  ...
> 
> The singer gets to decide the key, I think.  If you are not the singer, you are part of the show.


When a singer has to  push the limits of his voice for a given song with a big pitch range, it can depend on what shape his voice is in at short notice. If, OTOH, he is writing his own songs so he is just barely able to sing them, that's kind of pathetic indeed.

----------

DavidKOS

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## Bren

I played with a singer who liked to sing in F. I persuaded her to do a "Bob Wills key shift" to D for some of the instrumental breaks - quite effective. Then back to F for the vocals.

----------

DavidKOS

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## ralph johansson

> I played with a singer who liked to sing in F. I persuaded her to do a "Bob Wills key shift" to D for some of the instrumental breaks - quite effective. Then back to F for the vocals.


Most of the modulations on Bob Wills records are between neighboring keys along the circle of fifths, e.g., Bb to F (vocal version of Maiden's Prayer). The big exception is New San Antonio Rose which modulates from D to Ab (via F7, Bb7, Eb7), and (IIRC) back, with just an A7. 

The natural modulation from F to D would be via an A7 chord, not sure about the best way back. Years ago I wanted to work up a slightly neurotic version of Tennessee Waltz. I started in D, then realized that I had far too many songs in that key, so I worked it out in F (arguably the easiest and most versatile key on the mandolin), then worked it into a medley: TW in F, Missouri Waltz, in D, and Kentucky Waltz in Eb. What's missing is a number in G; that would cover the three most common modulations.

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## ralph johansson

For a nice play-along exercise (in Bluegrass) I suggest Doyle Lawson at the Cannery on YouTube. Not a single tune in D or G! The keys are B (too fast for me), Eb, Bb, C, F (a cappella), Bb, and A (again too fast). As far as  I can see Scott Vestal does not use a capo on the 2nd and 6th tune - these keys, and that tempo, are a nice way to get away from Scruggs style clichés on the banjo. 

"Too fast" means I cannot improvise in a rhytmically interesting fashion on these songs. I could certainly prepare some solos on each, but I don't enjoy doing that. I want to discover stuff in playing.

----------

Bill Findley

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## ralph johansson

> Sounds like bluegrass musicians before electronic tuners, everyone had their own "standard".


Before electronic tuners there were tuning forks. Ive used them for 60 years. They give an a (440 Hz) for reference and  theyve been used by players in just about any genre. Only Bluegrassers dont know how to handle them? Are they all tone deaf?

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## Mark Gunter

Ralph, yes, tuning forks have been in use for centuries, but when I began playing fifty-some-odd years ago in Watson, La. (not bluegrass), no one I knew had a tuning fork. We got one at school when we got a band teacher and started a school band.

Instead, those of us who had a reference usually had a pitch pipe, or used a harmonica, a piano, or another musician we were playing with to tune to. Just because the 440 Hz pitchfork has been around for so long doesn't negate what mandoplumb says.

Ricky Skaggs once asked Earl Scruggs how the Blue Grass Boys tuned; he said that when he was there, they always just tuned to Lester's guitar. I don't think Lester's guitar was always tuned to A 440 - probably a better chance of that in the studio than on the road, and maybe not always in the studio.

I think tunings have standardized a lot more now that people can own a "decent" or at least operational electronic tuner for $2 and up.

----------

DavidKOS

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## Mandoplumb

> Before electronic tuners there were tuning forks. I’ve used them for 60 years. They give an a’ (440 Hz) for reference and  they’ve been used by players in just about any genre. Only Bluegrassers don’t know how to handle them? Are they all tone deaf?


Quite frankly I resent the statement that bluegrass musicians can't use a tuning fork. As has been stated we just tuned to each other because that was what everyone else was doing so you wasn't going to be in tune with them regardless. Don't know why the electronic tuners caught on, maybe people that had problems tuning to one note ( tuning fork) Started the " fad" but I do know that we blue grassers are closer to other bands now than before electronic tuners. Just as a side note I used to tune my guitar to a florescent light. In 60 cycle electricity that buzz is a B tuning to that is almost as hard as tuning to a tuning fork.

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## Mark Gunter

Electronic tuners were a fad maybe in the 70s. I bought one at some point just for the novelty of having one. They were expensive. I believe the reason everyone uses them now is because they can afford them and they’re convenient.no matter, I just disagree that everybody but graders used tuning forks. We tuned to each other, and when alone we oftener tuned just by ear and memory regardless of the genre.

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## Mark Gunter

I despise typing on a phone with my thumb. Let the spelling errors stand.

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## Alex Orr

Simple answer...because it's often up to the vocalist to choose the key that best suits their voice.  Tottle likely put those in there to get you familiar with those keys because they do frequently get called for vocal numbers.  Despite being a rather annoying key to play in, Bb is actually a pretty comfortable key for a lot of folks to sing in, if they dare to give it a shot.

----------

DavidKOS

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## ralph johansson

> even if Monroe said "There ain't nothing natural about B natural". Second finger on the G string for the tonic is strong, as is index finger on the A for tonic. Maybe it's the 4th finger tonic on the E that annoys people.



He too? From Pete Martin's theory book:

Chapter 8
B Major Scale and Chord Arpeggio
I once heard Western Swing fiddle giant Johnny Gimble say Theres nothing natural about B natural. By this he was referring to playing in the key of B (called B natural), a key most Western Swing players never play. However, Bluegrass musicians play in B extensively. They know how important the key of B is to their music.

----------


## ralph johansson

> Also if you want to play a lot of songs in relative minor keys you need to know the key of Bb to play in Gm, F for Dm and Eb for Cm.
> For example Lonesome Moonlight Waltz in Dm
> Rob


To my ears, the Moonlight Waltz is in F. To be sure it starts in d minor, and there's an A7 in the middle, but from bar 12 to 13 it switches to a full ending in F  (C7-F). There never is a full d minor ending! The bridge starts on Bb, the IV chord in F (not the VI chord in d min!), and leads up to C7, the V7 chord in F, followed by an A7 leading back to a reprise of bars 9-16. You could say that about half of the tune is in d min, but the main key really is F.

----------


## ralph johansson

> Simple answer...because it's often up to the vocalist to choose the key that best suits their voice.  Tottle likely put those in there to get you familiar with those keys because they do frequently get called for vocal numbers.  Despite being a rather annoying key to play in, Bb is actually a pretty comfortable key for a lot of folks to sing in, if they dare to give it a shot.


Several of Tottle's examples are transcriptions of recorded solos. I suppose he chose the tunes to demonstrate a variety of approaches to the mandolin, including the keys most commonly used. And it's important to get acquainted with these keys in 1st position to get a feel for their relationships and their respective possibilities - shoving scale and chord forms up and down the neck is no big deal. Bb (along with F) to me is perhaps the most natural key of them all, with tons of possibilities. But, as I said before, you only know if you've tried.

----------


## John Garcia

I used to hate those keys, too.  Now, after a couple years of hearing any key called at jams, I've learned the scale shapes for whatever finger happens to land on the root note (an incredibly valuable skill).  Learn to use your pinky!! Sooner, the better.  You'll get it, just keep trying!

----------

DavidKOS

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## Ivan Kelsall

Here's one of my favourite songs to pick along with as practice - ''Fair Weather'' - Alison Brown - in Bb. How would you go on as a mandolin player, if you were invited to step up & join in if you couldn't hack it in that key ??,
                                                                                                                            Ivan :Wink: 
https://youtu.be/osmHyP0Jm6o  - ''Insert Video'' ain't workin ' !.

----------


## AlanN

> Here's one of my favourite songs to pick along with as practice - ''Fair Weather'' - Alison Brown - in Bb. How would you go on as a mandolin player, if you were invited to step up & join in if you couldn't hack it in that key ??,
>                                                                                                                             Ivan
> https://youtu.be/osmHyP0Jm6o  - ''Insert Video'' ain't workin ' !.


Good tune from a good album. Many a mandolin picker guest on this recording; this number features Stuart Duncan.

----------

Ivan Kelsall

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

Hi Alan - I have several of Alison Brown's recordings. Of course many of them are ''not strictly Bluegrass'',but that's what i like about them.They are all very melodic though,& nothing's done for 'showmanship' - a great artist !,
                                                                                                                          Ivan

----------


## DavidA39

> I think Wakefield wrote New Campton in Bb out of sheer boredom of normal mandolin keyes,,it says he used to play in G ,then take it to G# and then to A and then Bb,,,that's someone who is very familiar with moving around keyes,,and playing in G and taking it to G# is a great practice tip,,,I do it constantly thanks to Frank...


Bb is really not a hard key once you get situated. You can play it first position with open strings, just maybe have to reach up to the high Bb at 6th fret on the E string. The major chords are Bb, Eb and F. Not hard chords to play.

----------

bigskygirl

----------


## Mark Gunter

> Here's one of my favourite songs to pick along with as practice - ''Fair Weather'' - Alison Brown - in Bb. How would you go on as a mandolin player, if you were invited to step up & join in if you couldn't hack it in that key ??,
>                                                                                                                             Ivan
> https://youtu.be/osmHyP0Jm6o  - ''Insert Video'' ain't workin ' !.


that’s nice

fiddle sounds like a horn section, only better!

----------


## T.D.Nydn

I've been playing in the key of B lately,jamming to a great but rarely played bluegrass tune called Train45..sometimes it's in G but mostly in B ,with capos on the banjo and guitar at fret 5,,I just don't see the reason why this,was written in B ..

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## David L

> I've been playing in the key of B lately,jamming to a great but rarely played bluegrass tune called Train45..sometimes it's in G but mostly in B ,with capos on the banjo and guitar at fret 5,,I just don't see the reason why this,was written in B ..


I think you mean capoed at fret 4.

----------

T.D.Nydn

----------


## Jim Garber

I have been playing some tunes from Québécois and Missouri fiddle traditions in keys of F and Bb. It is very different from the usual keys I play. Also seeking out some tunes from Cole's 1000 Fiddle Tunes (also called Ryan's) in those keys as well as the relative minors (D minor and G minor). A real challenge on mandolin and even moreso on fiddle.

----------

Eric Platt

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## ralph johansson

> I've been playing in the key of B lately,jamming to a great but rarely played bluegrass tune called Train45..sometimes it's in G but mostly in B ,with capos on the banjo and guitar at fret 5,,I just don't see the reason why this,was written in B ..


Train 45 was not "written" in this or that key. It belongs to a family of folk songs including Reuben, Ruby, and  500 miles. The oldest version that I know of was recorded by Grayson & Whitter in the 30's, in the key of G. Reuben is often played on the banjo, in D tuning.  Possibly the first BG version was by the  Stanley Brothers. Bill Monroe recorded it in B in the late 60's. B is a signature key in Bluegrass, for various reasons explained earlier in this thread.

----------


## ralph johansson

> I have been playing some tunes from Québécois and Missouri fiddle traditions in keys of F and Bb. It is very different from the usual keys I play. Also seeking out some tunes from Cole's 1000 Fiddle Tunes (also called Ryan's) in those keys as well as the relative minors (D minor and G minor). A real challenge on mandolin and even moreso on fiddle.


Such remarks make me wonder how people go about learning an instrument. My first instrument is the guitar, which I started learning in 1957. Systematically, key by key, in first position, then in higher positions (realizing that the F and C scales in first position use only the first three frets). And, later, much more freely. In the beginning I simply followed the circle of fifths both directions from C: C, F, G, Bb, D, ... On the mandolin, 10 years later, I didn't proceed quite as systematically, basically I just started playing: first in open, then in standard positions determined by the fret markers, and then, again, much more freely. I think it's important to master all major keys in first position, without using open strings. The next step is to translate these scales up and down the fretboard. E.g., Ab is the same scale as A pulled back one fret. What's so special with the key of F?

----------


## UsuallyPickin

Yeah …. bottom line is that the world is full of singers that play guitar and own capos. Not to mention 'grass players that love the odd key now and again. Capo cowboys often have little or no clue what key they are actually playing in. So learn those "odd" key breaks and practice those closed position scales and arpeggios. That's the way you can step in any time you feel the want to do so. Being a well studied player pays off in fun and the occasional paying gig. I still prefer not to play in Eb Ab and Db but will if it is required. Enjoy the process. R/

----------

bigskygirl

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## Jim Garber

> What's so special with the key of F?


My mandolin and fiddle playing, at least in the earlier years for those instruments were part of learning the folk repertoires, mostly Irish and then pretty strongly old time music. The vast majority of tunes in those genres and many other folk ones are played in D, G, A and C. F and Bb and much more uncommon. 

Yes, if I had systematically learned classical violin or mandolin I probably would have less of a challenge to play in any key. However, I didn't. I can certainly play in those keys and am enjoying the adventure.

----------


## Mark Gunter

I’m a sucker for that minor modal sound. The scales for F and Bb are familiar because I like Dm (F) e.g. Bach’s Invention #4, and Gm (Bb) e.g. Sam Bush’s Poor Richard’s Blues. Dm is a great sound for many Doc Watson tunes (like Little Sadie) and Jimmie Rodgers’ Gambling Bar Room Blues (Jimmie recorded in Ebm), as well as the Rowan & Rice version of Cold Rain & Snow.

As for the key of B ... I’m not much of a Grasser, but if you’re one, why would you not want to be familiar with it?

----------


## RobP

I'm sure this has already been said farther up in this thread, but sometimes B or Bb is just the best key that suits the vocalist.   One you start to get the hang of where the major and pentatonic scales live in relation to the chop chord position, breaks in these keys or in any key become a lot more accessible.

----------


## bigskygirl

I think it helps to not feel like any key is harder than another...all the scales, chords, etc work the same way it’s just using different frets.  I had a guitar teacher once that said the notes are not in my fingers...that really helped me focus on the fretboard rather than some position or patterns (not that there’s anything wrong with that... :Wink: )

Learn Rebecca - it’s in B, a fun tune and good exercise for playing in that key.  Bb is not that much different than F - I think new camptown races is in Bb so just pick a tune or two in those keys and learn them...you didn’t know G or D until you learned it.

Another technique is to take a tune you know and play it in other keys, you don’t have to get it to performance speed but just get a reasonable rendition going and move it around in other keys.  It will train your ear and help to familiarize yourself to the relevant frets...also, remember...the “right” note is only 1 fret away...have fun.

----------

Jim Garber, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## ralph johansson

> Learn Rebecca - its in B, a fun tune and good exercise for playing in that key.  Bb is not that much different than F - I think new camptown races is in Bb so just pick a tune or two in those keys and learn them...you didnt know G or D until you learned it.
> 
> Another technique is to take a tune you know and play it in other keys, you dont have to get it to performance speed but just get a reasonable rendition going and move it around in other keys.  It will train your ear and help to familiarize yourself to the relevant frets...also, remember...the right note is only 1 fret away...have fun.


As I've indicated earlier the choice of keys for instrumental pieces  often is idiomatic. Cheyenne is in Bb because of the g minor bridge (using the lowest note on the fidle or mando). New Camptown Races is in Bb because of the g min chord. On Sailor's Hornpipe the key of Bb offers nice phrase turns on the d and a courses. Clarinet Polka is a clarinet piece to be sure, and the clarinet is a Bb instrument,  but it's done on the fiddle occasionally (Howdy Forrester and Jimmy Riddle recorded a wonderful, but much too brief, version with fiddle and harmonica) and it fits very well on the mando for the same reasons as Sailor's Hornpipe. Possibly these latter songs were my inspiration for exploring the combination of first and second position in Bb (and F).

I play several songs in Bb, like Crazy and Slow Poke. I learned the latter song from a video with Pee Wee King. He did it in G but I didn't like that range so I raised the key and found that Bb allows a nice descending sequence of three-part chords towards the end. Crazy, well, that's where Patsy Cline did it; but I don't modulate to B, as I wanted room for some improvisation. (I've posted a recording on Flatpciker Hangout, under the name Piotr; for idiomatic reasons the guitar is uncapoed).

----------

Jim Garber

----------


## Jim Garber

I learn most tunes simultaneously on mandolin and fiddle. Mandolin is not as hard—just getting used to odder fingerings. On fiddle I have to work harder on perfecting intonation in those keys I rarely play in. Plus double stops are, well, doubly hard.

----------


## Eric Platt

After some shows a couple of weeks ago, got to thinking about this again. Cm (E flat) is not great sounding on either guitar or mandolin. Sure, melody is okay, but the chords do not sound nice to my ears. Especially on mando. Am sure if I worked on the voicing it could work, but it's just high up the neck to get a nice, resonant sound.

----------


## Bill McCall

Topsy works fine on mando, in C minor.  Voicings are important.

----------

Mark Gunter

----------


## Mike Buesseler

https://youtu.be/Tv70oMuUl34

Heres a catchy little tune in Bb from Russ Barenberg. Jump Back Barley.  Its my most recently learned tune. I have no idea why Russ chose Bb, but there are a few good stretches (1st fret E string to 6th fret A string) and also a couple sections that require (at least for me) fretting two strings at the same fret with one finger, specifically, my left ring finger. Both good exercises and worth it for this neat tune. I have tab if anyone is interested.

----------


## wormpicker

Lots of good reasons here for why it’s good to get comfortable with different keys.  Now, the question for us beginners is, how to do that?  Of course, one way is to just pick a tune and practice it.  I’ve found that a good complementary approach is good old scale and arpeggio practice.  Now, I know that’s not for everybody, but I think it can be fun, and really has gotten me out of my “D & A” rut.  There are tons of books with scale/arpeggio exercises.  The one I’ve landed on is called The Fiddler’s Red Book of Scales and Arpeggios, by Canadian fiddler Gordon Stobbe.  I like it because, for each of the main fiddle keys (sorry, it does not include B, but it does have Bb), it includes a variety of different scale and arpeggio patterns.  It comes with a recording of each exercise, played on fiddle.  I’ve loaded them all into Amazing Slow Downer so that I can vary the tempos and loop them.  Playing along with the recordings, at least on fiddle, is great intonation practice, but it’s also very helpful for practicing on mandolin.  I have a list of a bunch of mando tunes in F that I want to learn for an upcoming music gathering, so I’m working on my F scales and arpeggios to get my fingers in place.  Here’s information on the book, which you can purchase directly from Mr. Stobbe (no financial or other interest—I just find his books helpful):  http://www.fiddlebooks.com/bookcontent16.html

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## Jim Garber

Lots of soundfiles from mostly OT players. Seems like there are *125 Bb tunes* linked on this great site. 

Here's Casey's Hornpipe, one that I am working on in Bb. I hope to get it up to speed, especially on fiddle. Lots of Bb tunes from the midwest and Charlie Walden is one of the best playing these tunes these days.

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Eric Platt, 

wildpikr

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## Mark Gunter

> After some shows a couple of weeks ago, got to thinking about this again. Cm (E flat) is not great sounding on either guitar or mandolin. Sure, melody is okay, but the chords do not sound nice to my ears. Especially on mando. Am sure if I worked on the voicing it could work, but it's just high up the neck to get a nice, resonant sound.


Eric, it would be interesting to hear more about the experience you describe with Am. Im assuming that context is everything here. Down the neck in Am is
2200 (A5)
2230
2235
And the scale notes are the same as Cmaj - the relative major to Am is C.

 I do play around in Am as well, and am confused by your comment. Id like to hear more.



Apologies Eric! You wrote Am sure ... and I mistakenly read A minor - please disregard.

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Eric Platt

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## Mark Gunter

*Exercise in Eb/Cm

*Just a suggestion ... here is a fun track to play with as an exercise in Eb/Cm. I realize this won't be appealing to everyone because (1) Bob Dylan, (2) spiritual. This is a song I play in C/Am in performance, but I find it tough to get the syncopation right when playing to a click, so I work on that sometimes and noodle to it for breaks, etc.

Today I decided to play along with the actual tracks, but both versions here were recorded in Eb/Cm so I had a blast working with it in those keys. It made me think of this thread, thus my post about it. Maybe someone will want to play around with it and use the Eb positions. If the shoe fits ...

Here are the voicings I use with it, depending where I am in the progression and what licks I want to play:

Eb: 856x and 3113
Cm: 556x (5568) and 0133
Bb: 335x (3356)
Ab: 113x (1134)
Fm: 10-10-11-x and 1334

I like to do the comping but also find licks of the same flavor as the guitar and bass licks in the originals.

What Can I Do For You, Eb (version 1)


Your browser does not support the audio element.


What Can I Do For You, Eb (version 2)


Your browser does not support the audio element.

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## BlueMountain

Here is one answer to the original question. A few days ago At a bluegrass jam I sang both “Can’t You Hear Me Calling” and “That Was Before I Met You” in C because D was a little too high for me to hit all the notes if I sang in my upper register. Later, an old banjo player begged me to do them in B, rather than C. I’ve seldom had to play a song in B in a jam, and soloing on mandolin in B will take some extra practice, so I asked him why. He explained that banjo players who use Scruggs style picking for that “Wall of Noise” like to play in Open G tuning and play their most important chord without having to fret a single note. A capo on the second fret gives an Open A with no fretted notes. A capo on the third fret gives an Open Bb with no fretted notes. A capo on the fourth fret gives Open B with no fretted notes. Easy! Open C, on the other hand, requires a sort of capo that many banjo players don’t use. The key he most hates is F, and he’s not fond of E.

He added that bluegrass guitarists love to play in G, as that is what they practice the most. A capo on the second fret lets them play in the key of A while playing G runs. A capo on the third fret lets them play in the key of Bb while playing G runs. A capo on the fourth fret lets them play in the key of B while playing G runs.

Thus, for both banjo and guitar, the keys of G, Ab, A, Bb, and B are all easy and require the least learning and effort and thinking and give the classic sound.

As for mandolin, when soloing in B, there aren’t as many open strings to drone as there are in some other keys. It takes more work. It sounds different than a G or D or A or C solo. However, there are plenty of great double stops that make up for it. Bb actually has more open strings and is rather interesting for solos. I’m working on both to keep my banjo players happy. And I’m not using a capo. I feel so self-righteous!

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Bill Findley

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## Mandoplumb

In a jam secession I cant believe you couldnt have sang it in F or G. If it was a performance it would have been learned and practiced, and should be in key that absolutely suits singer but a jam is spur of the moment and really just for fun

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## A-board

Just change real estate when jamming in lesser visited keys and take chord shapes up the neck. True, it limits open string options, but 1-4-5 can go anywhere.

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## maxr

A little OT, but there was a great late 18thC Scottish fiddle composer called William Marshall who wrote a good number of tunes in Bb and Eb. One day he was asked "Maister Marshall, why d'ye write tunes in sic hard keys?" "Och" replies William, "ah dinna write tunes for bunglers".  I think he was saying "Beacuase I can".

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DavidKOS, 

Eric Platt

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## Eric Platt

> A little OT, but there was a great late 18thC Scottish fiddle composer called William Marshall who wrote a good number of tunes in Bb and Eb. One day he was asked "Maister Marshall, why d'ye write tunes in sic hard keys?" "Och" replies William, "ah dinna write tunes for bunglers".  I think he was saying "Beacuase I can".


There is a recently published book about a Minnesota based Norwegian American fiddler, his tune book has numerous tunes in B flat, E flat, E major and even a waltz that goes to D flat. It's presumed he did it to show off technique.

For those that care the book is "Ole Hendricks & his tunebook" by Amy Shaw published by University of Wisconsin Press.

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maxr

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## Bren

I've come late to this thread, so I'm sure it's been mentioned already, but I thought one reason for B in Bluegrass was that otherwise it would just be Luegrass. OK, l'll get my coat.

Another reason would be that in first position it contains some handy blues notes on the open strings.
Kinda like E for guitarists.

Bb is popular for e.g  fiddle tunes such as Northumbrian hornpipes, where again commonly used accidentals are on the open strings.

So while it's good to master all keys in closed positions, B and Bb have some advantages in open positions too.

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Drew Egerton

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## maxr

> Bb is popular for e.g  fiddle tunes such as Northumbrian hornpipes, where again commonly used accidentals are on the open strings.


I used to play Northumbrian pipes - mine were in D, but I believe more traditional sets were often in F - could that explain Bb Northumbrian tunes?

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## lowtone2

I'm a horn player so pretty comfortable in those flat keys...on saxophone and bass.  Increasingly, I see big band charts in sharp keys and I don't get it? Why not just stick with the easy keys? 

On mandolin it's not that hard to play different keys in closed positions, but what's cool to me is playing those keys in first position using open strings when available, not that I'm adept at that. You really get different colors.  Jody Stecher demonstrated that on an old VHS instruction tape I have. Very striking stuff. I wonder if that is available as a download now? Highly recommended, from what I remember...

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## Jim Garber

Lowtone2: correct me if I am wrong but if you read in sheet music in C major on a Bb instrument then you are actually playing in Bb or Eb for an Eb horn? So no sharps or flats? But we would be playing in 2 flats or three on our instruments. It is really a matter of what you are used to. Or are you talking about transposing on the fly?

i have been exploring Bb and F tunes on fiddle and mandolin and is fine. Getting used to reading in those keys as well. Just need to find tunes in E and B for the sharp end and Eb and Ab and the requisite minor keys.

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## lowtone2

> Lowtone2: correct me if I am wrong but if you read in sheet music in C major on a Bb instrument then you are actually playing in Bb or Eb for an Eb horn? So no sharps or flats? But we would be playing in 2 flats or three on our instruments. It is really a matter of what you are used to. Or are you talking about transposing on the fly?
> 
> i have been exploring Bb and F tunes on fiddle and mandolin and is fine. Getting used to reading in those keys as well. Just need to find tunes in E and B for the sharp end and Eb and Ab and the requisite minor keys.



I do transpose on the fly, but big-band charts are scored for the different keys the horns are written in. A chart in Eb concert would be written in the key of C for me on barisax, and F for the tenor and trumpets. Bones read bass clef. 

So a chart in concert C is written in A for me and the alto players, and D for the tenor and trumpets. Not really a big deal. 

Harder is playing in a rock or blues horns section and they do everything in E or A.  Db and Gb for me on baritone, or Gb and B for tenor. For some reason, most tenor players think of it as F# rather than Gb. 




I get my fake books in C. Transposing is not hard, just takes practice. Did i answer your question?

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DavidKOS

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## Jim Garber

Yes you did answer my questions. I guess I also wonder how this all came about. I know there are melody saxes but those are pretty much obsolete perhaps for their not useful range. We’re all these brass instruments designed apart from the strings and keyboards. Adolph Sax designed his instruments in the 19th century. This article on transposing instruments helps explains a lot to me: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposing_instrument

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## journeybear

> The keys of F and Bb sit *very* naturally on the mandolin fretboard, as does Eb. But you won't know until you've tried them. I suppose mainly guitarists oppose Eb because they get a fuller sound in E.


There's a recent custom in which guitarists tune their instruments down a half-step.  :Disbelief:  So the key of E, which has always been common for them, becomes Eb - rather than oppose Eb, they seek it. I've never gotten a satisfactory explanation for this.  :Confused:  If anyone has one I'd love to hear it.

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## John Ritchhart

For me it's all about the sound. Keys "sound" different to me and it's not just pitch, it's more like different colors. Chords are the same, Gm isn't just Dm at a different pitch, it has it's own character. To cite an example maybe Tennessee Waltz played in G (which I like) has a different feel than played in D which is more common I think. Play New Camptown Races in anything other than Bb and hear the difference. Or Billy in the Lowground in something other than C. It's weird.

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## journeybear

> Keys "sound" different to me and it's not just pitch, it's more like different colors.


This was a prevalent belief in classical music, beginning in the Baroque Period, I think. Different emotional states were ascribed to each key. I've seen lists of them. with detailed descriptions. And not surprisingly, there was considerable inconsistency. 

According to Christian Schubart, in his "Ideen zu einer Aesthetik der Tonkunst" from 1806:

"B♭ Major
Cheerful love, clear conscience, hope aspiration for a better world.

"B Major
Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring coulors. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere."

From Charpentier's Regles de Composition ca. 1682:

B major: harsh and plaintive
Bb major: magnificent and joyful

His list is a bit suspect, as he determines both G major and G minor to be "serious and magnificent."  :Confused: 

https://wmich.edu/mus-theo/courses/keys.html
https://ledgernote.com/blog/interest...tics-emotions/

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## CBFrench

> There's a recent custom in which guitarists tune their instruments down a half-step.  So the key of E, which has always been common for them, becomes Eb - rather than oppose Eb, they seek it. I've never gotten a satisfactory explanation for this.  If anyone has one I'd love to hear it.


It got around the guitar community that SRV tuned down a half step. He tuned down to lower the string tension because of using heavier gauge strings. So all the SRV wannabees had to do the same thinking they'd sound like their hero. I sometimes tune my acoustic down a whole step making the key of E become D for a lower tonal sound. The great jazz guitarist Kenny Poole would tune his guitar down up to 3 whole steps as he was a master at playing bass lines in addition to his chord melody

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DavidKOS, 

journeybear

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## DavidKOS

> It got around the guitar community that SRV tuned down a half step. He tuned down to lower the string tension because of using heavier gauge strings. So all the SRV wannabees had to do the same thinking they'd sound like their hero. I sometimes tune my acoustic down a whole step making the key of E become D for a lower tonal sound. The great jazz guitarist Kenny Poole would tune his guitar down up to 3 whole steps as he was a master at playing bass lines in addition to his chord melody


Jimi and others tuned down to so-called Eb years earlier.

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## journeybear

> It got around the guitar community that SRV tuned down a half step.


Thanks. Interesting. I recently ran into something with SRV, while recording a take on his "Texas Flood" with lyrics reworked to address the recent arctic blast the state and surrounding area suffered - he'd recorded it in F#.  :Confused:  That seemed weird, as E is a big favorite among blues guitarists - in fact, that's how I played it in my "Texas Snow." Now I'm thinking, he was actually playing in G, just down a half step to F#.  :Wink:

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DavidKOS

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## Bren

Back in 1979 I busked with a guitarist who used a nylon string guitar tuned down two or three steps.

He was normally a strat-playing Hendrix fan in bands but reckoned that the slack-tuned acoustic guitar was easier on his fingers for long busking sessions.

I was just strumming along mostly and playing simple melodic lines, but even so it was a good challenge to match keys. It was a challenge to figure out what they were!

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## bigskygirl

> I'm a horn player so pretty comfortable in those flat keys...on saxophone and bass.  Increasingly, I see big band charts in sharp keys and I don't get it? Why not just stick with the easy keys? 
> 
> On mandolin it's not that hard to play different keys in closed positions, but what's cool to me is playing those keys in first position using open strings when available, not that I'm adept at that. You really get different colors.  Jody Stecher demonstrated that on an old VHS instruction tape I have. Very striking stuff. I wonder if that is available as a download now? Highly recommended, from what I remember...


I take easy tunes like Soldiers Joy, Arkansas Traveller and play them in different keys in open position.  Since I know them well it doesnt really take that long to figure them out, funny enough I dont really play in closed position much since Im so used to open.

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## Jim Garber

> Jimi and others tuned down to so-called Eb years earlier.


And Dick Dale as well.

a friend of mine showed me this old time banjo tuning for guitar tuning the lowest string down to C. It made that old Martin sound like a mandocello!

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## journeybear

I've heard Dick Dale used piano strings, so he may not be the best person to use as an example.  :Wink: 

Then again, confirming that rumor has been difficult. I'm seeing references to very thick strings, but nothing about whether they were  piano strings. Nor low tuning, for that matter. Fun reads, though ... And the in-depth analysis of his rig is fascinating. He sure followed his own path.

https://www.fender.com/articles/arti...ick-dale-facts
https://surfguitar101.com/forums/top...page=1#p385251

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## ralph johansson

> For me it's all about the sound. Keys "sound" different to me and it's not just pitch, it's more like different colors. Chords are the same, Gm isn't just Dm at a different pitch, it has it's own character. To cite an example maybe Tennessee Waltz played in G (which I like) has a different feel than played in D which is more common I think. Play New Camptown Races in anything other than Bb and hear the difference. Or Billy in the Lowground in something other than C. It's weird.



I once started noodling a bit on TW in D, but realized I had far too many songs in that key. So I switched to F, with lots of figures and slides along the strings, rather than across them. I subsequently worked that into a medley: Tennessee Waltz in F, Missouri Waltz in D, and Kentucky Waltz in Eb. Only thing missing is a waltz in G to cover the three most common modulations. 

I'm partial to the key of Eb; when I began playing the guitar more than 60 years ago I used a lot of sheet music for the piano and Eb is probably the most common sheet music key.

One tune I learned from sheet music about that time was Georgia On  My Mind. The printed key is F, and playing the verse (which nobody else does) I found   open A and D useful as bass notes (but I would have liked an open G as well). Omitting the verse (or the melody altogether)  I've found that Eb works best. Another song that cries out for the key of Eb is ain't Misbehavin'. For some strange reason the Hot Club Quintet did it in D. 

Another song I really love playing in Eb is Min Soldat, (The Shrine of St. Cecilia) a Swedish WWII song (the singer loves her soldier boyfriend in spite of his shabby appearance). It was recorded a couple of years ago by tenor saxophonist Scott Hamilton with a Swedish-Danish ensemble.

About 10 years ago I wanted to work up an arrangement of Only You but realized I would have to include too much tremolo. So I wrote a contrafact, in Eb,  over its changes (Only You -> Uniquely Determined -> ) Determination, a somewhat boppish title. Only then did I realize that the changes were almost the same as There Will Never Be Another You.

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## ralph johansson

> I take easy tunes like Soldier’s Joy, Arkansas Traveller and play them in different keys in open position.  Since I know them well it doesn’t really take that long to figure them out, funny enough I don’t really play in closed position much since I’m so used to open.


I've found that St. Anne's Reel works well in Eb, and the Gold Rush (Monroe-Berline) in Bb.

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## lowtone2

> Yes you did answer my questions. I guess I also wonder how this all came about. I know there are melody saxes but those are pretty much obsolete perhaps for their not useful range. We’re all these brass instruments designed apart from the strings and keyboards. Adolph Sax designed his instruments in the 19th century. This article on transposing instruments helps explains a lot to me: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposing_instrument


The main reason is so that horn players don't have to read ledger lines so much. The approximate center of the horn's range is centered on the staff. The same is true for double bass, which actually sounds an octave lower than written. Most guitar music is also written an octave up.

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## DogHouseMando

Key of B used to frustrate me. Then this past year I found an approach that uses a C form starting at B on the low G string. Started experimenting with a blues kind of scale that goes B - C# - D - Eb - E - F# - G# - A - B. I found a way to do a kind of Jimmy Martin G run that is B - D - Eb - F# - G# - B. It may not be a traditional mandolin approach, but it helped me get comfortable with that scale up and down the neck using that form.

For key of Bb I just chose an instrumental tune to focus on to learn the scale and get comfortable. It was New Camptown from Wake Frankfield  :Laughing:   Once I got comfortable with that I'd start learning melodies to vocal songs in Bb, mostly Stanley Brothers like Nobody's Love is Like Mine. So far it's helped pretty well. I'd like to try more in Ab and Eb with a similar exercise.

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