# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  A Vs F style

## mr.patterson

I'm sure this has been covered but I couldn't find a good straight forward answer (though it might be because there isn't one). I have read lots of places that you can get a better mandolin for your money if you buy an "A" style because it takes more work to carve the scroll work on the "F" style. Is this correct and if so why spend several hundred dollars more for the scroll work? Is there a distinct sound difference or playability between the two and if so what would it be? I unfortunately do not live near a good store with different mandos to try out.

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## Andrew DeMarco

This topic has been covered so thoroughly and often that others may not chime in, so I'll outline the basics as I've learned them here:






> I have read lots of places that you can get a better mandolin for your money if you buy an "A" style because it takes more work to carve the scroll work on the "F" style.


Definitely. Look on any builder's or manufacturer's site for instruments with the same appointments except the style. In fact, check out the classifieds :Smile: 




> Why spend several hundred dollars more for the scroll work?


The look. That's all. Why do people pay for fancy paintjobs on cars? Why do people want suicide doors on their cars? Why do people wear expensive clothing? Personal preference? Something else? Bottom line is it's not necessary.




> Is there a distinct sound difference or playability between the two and if so what would it be?


Ceteris paribus, they are pretty much identical except for the "fancy strap hanger" (scroll) as it is sometimes called around these here parts. What contributes to the sound the most is the construction material and the shape of the holes (ff versus an oval hole). An A style instrument wouldn't sound appreciably different if it had a scroll. When I first came to mandolins about 5 years ago or so, the issue was confused in my mind because I associated the teardrop shaped "A-style" mandolin exclusively with the oval hole, while I associated the F-style with the scroll with the ff (f-shaped, violin) holes. There's no exclusive relationship: an F style can have an oval hole, an A style can have ff holes, and you can get all sorts of variations! 

The bottom line is you shouldn't be worrying about the shape of the body at this point. If you're going to worry about something you should worry about the shape of the holes. Typically, people will say the oval hole gives a mellower rounder sound.

But if you are new to mandolins and there isn't a store nearby I'd worry first about getting a dang mando into your hands with a good setup! I'm not sure what your musical background is but the term setup is a technical term in stringed instruments meaning that all the bits are adjusted correctly so the mandolin performs optimally with whatever its made of. This may include adjusting the bridge location, sanding the feet, changing its height. Could also mean adjusting a truss rod if there is one, or it could include a host of other small and large modifications.

The bottom line here is that any instrument, even a very expensive F style instrument with a poor setup may be a pain in the butt to play (physically) and not sound as good as it could.

So make sure whatever you get gets a setup from someone knowledgeable about mandolins in particular. If you can't find someone in person many luthiers and mando repair folks will do it by mail. 




> I unfortunately do not live near a good store with different mandos to try out.


This can be a bit of a harder issue. *Where do you live, and what's your price range?*

Here are some recent choice threads which may be relevant to your situation:
Good Mando for under $700
Best value for $1500
Best value $3000-$5000
Are F-styles inherently "bluegrassy"
A very entertaining "A is the new F" thread
A short bang for buck thread

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bradeasley, 

Marc Ferry

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## JEStanek

That's a great summation, Andrew.

Jamie

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## Folkmusician.com

> That's a great summation, Andrew.


Yep,   nothing to add other than Welcome to the Cafe Mr. Patterson.   :Smile:

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## Ed Goist

What a wonderful overview by Andrew!
I'll just add that because of market demand, the high-end or "flagship" mandolins built by most producers and builders are F-Style mandolins.

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## mr.patterson

Wow thank you so much. That completely answered my question!!! Great place this mandolincafe.com!!!!!!!!

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## sunburst

One correction to Andrew's overview. It is not so much the _shape_ of the holes as the _position_ of the holes. Oval holes are normally on the center line of the body near the neck, f-holes are normally in pairs, one to each side of the bridge. With holes in those general positions, the mandolin will sound about the same regardless of the _shape_ of the holes.

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## Willie Poole

F model mandolins seem to be a status symbol with bluegrass pickers mainly because thats what Monroe played...I have always played F models until recently when I bought an A model and now I kind of swap back and forth between the two, can`t tell much difference in the two...Body shape means very little if any at all....

   Like one fellow asked "what kind of music are you interested in playing" and then some people on here can chime in and suggest what mandolin might be best for your situation....Also let us know what area you are in and maybe someone will suggest a store that can supply you with an instrument, we have people from all over the world on here and very up on things too...

    Good luck and welcome to The Cafe.....

    Willie

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## Chip Booth

I hope to add a little something to this long talked about question.  This comparison shot is not perfect ( I will try to do a better comparison next time I have the opportunity), but it was the best I could find in the photos I took this past winter.  I was very interested in the way the neck block is shaped in an F vs an A and how it effects internal volume.  These are mandolins were built by Lawrence Smart, and I can't say whether the construction is standard for other builders or not.  Lawrence has told me on several occasions that he firmly believes there is a difference in the sound of F vs A models, and with this much change in internal shape and volume I can see it.  He also suggests that perhaps the neck joint is stiffer due to the mass of the scroll.  These aren't good/bad comparisons, just possible differences.  For myself, I have found more A style instruments that have strongly appealed to me sonically than F style instruments.  

Regardless, when talking about individual instruments the conventional wisdom is that the differences in F vs A are far more subtle than the differences from any one instrument to the next due to building methods, bracing, wood choice, etc, and I firmly believe that to be true.

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rwhitney

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## Andrew DeMarco

Let me throw these two threads out here: are f holes a poor design and an earlier A vs F thread

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## sgarrity

> Regardless, when talking about individual instruments the conventional wisdom is that the differences in F vs A are far more subtle than the differences from any one instrument to the next due to building methods, bracing, wood choice, etc, and I firmly believe that to be true.


Some builders swear that their F's and A's sound different and some swear they sound the same.  I tend to think they pretty much sound the same.  One of the best mandolins I've ever played was a blonde Gil A5.  I personally like A-styles and am more than happy with their tone.  I could afford a Gil, Nugget, or Dude F5 but instead I have a Heiden A5, Kimble A4, Kimble mandola, and a Heiden mandola on order and I still haven't spent as much money as a high end F5.  And every time I start thinking I should spring for a really nice F5 I look at what I would have to sell to make it happen and just can't do it.  

Ultimately you have to play a lot of mandolins and figure out what you like.  But an A-style is certainly not an inferior or beginners instrument.  Just ask Tim O'brien and Jody Stecher, both long time A-style players.

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## mandobassman

There are so many people that have this notion that F style mandolins are for bluegrass and A style mandolins are for Folk or Celtic or for people that can't afford a good F.  It is definately a status symbol. I personally believe that if everything is equal (sound chamber size, top graduations, f-hole size, etc...) there is little or no difference in sound.  However I also believe that there are builders who, because of the demand from bluegrass players, voice their F style mandolins differently than A's.  By carving the tops different a builder can create any tone he chooses (assuming he/she has the skill to do so).  They can create a deeper, fuller, and louder tone to make the F's sound better to a bluegrass crowd.  They make a couple of thousand more for F's so why wouldn't they.  Fortunately, A's are becoming more popular and there are many builders that are making excellent sounding A models.

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## mandolirius

> That's a great summation, Andrew.
> 
> Jamie


Agreed. Now if we could only get that, and a few other commonly-asked questions into a "Newbie" section, we wouldn't have the endless stream of threads that bog down this forum. This is clearly something that is needed.

Really, what is interesting about having the same questions (with the same well-worn answers) appearing over and over again.  There will always be newbies and their questions are totally valid. But the wheel just keeps on being re-invented. Post these answers somewhere permanently and everyone will be a lot better off.

DISCLAIMER - this is a personal opinion about improving this site and not to be taken as criticism of the moderators which, as a responsible Cafe member, I would never do.

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## Andrew DeMarco

I'm absolutely about keeping this community welcoming, lush, and friendly. But I agree about the FAQ. 

It could even be curated by the community like a Wiki. Mandowiki.

Or maybe even a collection of different thread types. i.e. "what's the best mandolin for $500-$1000?"

People may still post the question, but there's a consolidated reference index of previous responses.. ya know?

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## Nonprophet

> Agreed. Now if we could only get that, and a few other commonly-asked questions into a "Newbie" section, we wouldn't have the endless stream of threads that bog down this forum. This is clearly something that is needed.
> 
> Really, what is interesting about having the same questions (with the same well-worn answers) appearing over and over again.  There will always be newbies and their questions are totally valid. But the wheel just keeps on being re-invented. Post these answers somewhere permanently and everyone will be a lot better off.
> 
> DISCLAIMER - this is a personal opinion about improving this site and not to be taken as criticism of the moderators which, as a responsible Cafe member, I would never do.


Agreed! Lot's of forums have "stickies" that appear/remain at the top of each form page, and this thread would make a great "stickie."

NP

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## mr.patterson

As the asker of this question and the starter of this thread I completely agree. The search function on the forum pulls up way to many responses as it searches each word used and pull posts that use the same words. I searched for about a half hour before posting and basically got overwhelmed by searching through old posts with little or no relation to my question. I truely and honestly appreciate all the support and answers I have received and this forum remains the best and most comprehensive site for information and general mandolin discussion I can find, but to keep things fresh and interesting for all the non-noobies out there a FAQ page or a beginner forum would be amazing.

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## allenhopkins

A FAQ page only works when there's near-unanimous consensus on the answers.  See *this current thread* for an enlightened "pro and con" on the subject.

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## JeffD

When we say there is no difference between the sound of an A and the sound of an F style, what we are really saying is a bit more complicated. Its not that they sound identical. No two instruments sound the same. No two instruments can sound the same. Take any two mandolins, and they will sound different.

The difference between the sound of the A shape and F shape is no more than the difference between any two mandolins. A given A style instrument will sound as different from an F style as it will from another A style. Or may sound more like a given F style than it does another A style. The difference between an A and an F body is about the same as the difference between any two instruments.

There is also not enough the same about all F styles or all A styles to put the differences in categories or to find a pattern.


Compare for example with oval hole versus ff holes. There is a difference and an identifiable quality to one and to the other.

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## mandroid

The lower points do aide in holding it in a playing position in your lap, when sitting..

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## Mark Seale

Based on those pictures, I would expect the Smart instruments to have a different sound from A to F.  Not all builders use a hollow scroll and many shape more of the A style neck block.  Fill in the scroll and shape the air chamber side of the block and the sounds will be more similar.

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