# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Flatbacks of note

## billkilpatrick

there must be millions of these instruments out there - mostly from germany and points east, i would guess - and i haven't a clue about any of them. 

they're usually described on german ebay as "flachbauch" and feature either a slated back with alternating stripes of light and dark wood or a geometric, kaleidoscopic design. "hopf" is a name i've seen mentioned and "framus" ... but most of them appear to be non-descript and nameless - some of them have the dubious distinction of being made in the german democratic republic.

my first mandolin was one of these - i wrote a haiku about it:

nameless old german
bought for nothing on ebay
patiently teaching 

... i subsequently gave it away but it tided me over while i waited to fly back to the states for a visit and pick up a brand-new mid-missouri.

anyone interested in them? - or is "flatback of note" in this instance, a bit of an oxymoron?

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## Bob A

Well, Bill, my first mando was a Czechoslovakian bowlback bought new from a pawnshop in 1965. Played it for about a year, until the soft brass nut wore through. It wasn't worth repairing, in fact it probably wasn't worth the $39 I paid for it, but I was glad I had it, back then. Had I known then what I know now, life would certainly have been better all around.

But enough of the thread hijacking. I've seen lots of photos on ebay of the mandolins you mention, and personally that's where I intend to leave them.

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## brunello97

Bill,

I have mulled over this starting this very thread for awhile but wasn't sure where to situate it within the MC forums. For most of us there are a lot of interesting 'flatbacks' including the various Chicago and Martin models, the odds and end Italian and French experiments, bandolims, as well as the myriad of Tonblasen that i tedeschi have produced. 

It may be a more 'refined' taste than what often is typically discussed in the 'b.o.n.' thread but I am glad you have taken the plunge. And that perhaps the myriad of discussions spread about could be centralized. I'm happen to weigh in from time to time.

Mick

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## brunello97

Maybe, Bill, here is one to start with-a nice Martin Style B, 1923 w Rosewood back and the carved headstock. 


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....US:1123

$750 still might seem a nice price for these given their relative scarcity. Any other thoughts on price/value on these Martins, given current trends?

Mick

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## brunello97

Or this elegant Gaudet-Gelas fb which ought serve as a corollary to the interesting discussion of French luthiery begun elsewhere. Perhaps helping to keep illuminated an interesting body of work not always in the scope of our conversations. 

Mick

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## Bob A

Boetzke's has a pair of Gelas mandolins that I've been eyeballing for a year or more. Back when the euro was worth a dollar, and I had many fewer instruments, I was seriously interested in the older of the two.

FWIW, Bernunzio had a Gelas guitar on the rack when I visited in December. Didn't try it, though.

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## brunello97

Bob, 

I checked the Boetzkes site on your lead. There is a Patenotte-(Gelas system?) double top Mandola at what appears a reasonable price. Since we've been getting in touch with our Francophilia here of late, I wonder if anyone has some experience viz the Patenotte instruments?

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Here is a Euterpe built or sold by the JTL org. I have one very similar but without the original HSC.

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## zoukboy

> Or this elegant Gaudet-Gelas fb which ought serve as a corollary to the interesting discussion of French luthiery begun elsewhere. Perhaps helping to keep illuminated an interesting body of work not always in the scope of our conversations. 
> 
> Mick


Are my eyes deceiving me or does this mando have a really large body and short neck?

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## Bill Snyder

> Originally Posted by  (brunello97 @ Jan. 16 2008, 21:00)
> 
> Or this elegant Gaudet-Gelas fb which ought serve as a corollary to the interesting discussion of French luthiery begun elsewhere. #Perhaps helping to keep illuminated an interesting body of work not always in the scope of our conversations. 
> 
> Mick
> 
> 
> Are my eyes deceiving me or does this mando have a really large body and short neck?


It may have a bit of a large body, it is hard to tell but I think most of it is the angle at which the photo was taken.

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## billkilpatrick

made by bolivian luthier clarken orosco and seen here:

http://www.boliviamall.com/catalog/default.php

not because it's particularly elegant or even desirable - more for its interesting shape and odd string placement. (sorry about the size - if you're interested, access the boliviamall site; put "mandolin" in the search engine and scan down the list.)

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## Jeff Hildreth

I have owned 2 Seiffert flatbacks; one mandolin and one tenor mandola.

I sold both and did not take photos.

I would be interested in acquiring another Seiffert Flatback Mandolin. #Excellent instrument.

I note that Mari Fe Pavon plays one. Maple backs and sides

Very Guitarlike...
round soundhole with guitar like rosette
slotted peghead
deep body

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## Jim Garber

> made by bolivian luthier clarken orosco and seen here:


Big enough??

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## billkilpatrick

... argh! - it's alive - it's alive!!

(how did you do that?)

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## Bill Snyder

Bill you saved yours to your harddrive and uploaded it. Jim cliked the _Enlarge Image_ button at the sales website and then linked directly to the enlarged image.

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## brunello97

Roger,
Sorry, that picture is a little deceiving. It does show off the (help me with this) maple back nicely. Below is a side view of the Gaudet-Gelas that shows the proportions a bit better. 

Mick

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## zoukboy

> Roger,
> Sorry, that picture is a little deceiving. It does show off the (help me with this) maple back nicely. Below is a side view of the Gaudet-Gelas that shows the proportions a bit better. 
> 
> Mick


Thanks. Well, the neck joins the body at the 10th fret, so that looks pretty long to me. Is it a two piece top?

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## billkilpatrick

this flatback from mid-missouri (m-4) should have been placed at the beginning of the thread - a benchmark imho for pure simplicity in design, quality of craftsmanship and excellent sound reproduction:

... first amongst equals in flat fellowship.

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## billkilpatrick

gleaned off italian ebay - an "octofone" from regal:

http://cgi.ebay.it/RARITA-....3144242

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## brunello97

Curious place for a Regal to wind up, Bill. I like the shape of these octophones. It appears to be in pretty good shape. I've seen a number of these cross by but don't recall hearing any testimony as to how the sound or how folks might be employing them. 

BTW I doubt that the body of this is mahogany as the seller claims. It looks like birch to me. Maybe a 'mahogany' stain. 

Mick

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## billkilpatrick

... strange are the ways of international mandolin to-ing and fro-ing.

i went back to the auction thinking i might place a bid but the question arose ... do i really-really-really want another instrument - an antique at that?

i also wonder if the lower octave is where i really-really-really want to be?

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## Martin Jonas

> Thanks. Well, the neck joins the body at the 10th fret, so that looks pretty long to me. Is it a two piece top?


It's a Gelas mandolin, which is unlike any other style of construction. See here and here for more details and lots of photos of these oddballs.

Speaking of flatbacks, and in particular the German ones described by Bill in the post that started this thread, I should mention that my very first mandolin was a family heirloom, previously played by my grandfather and my mother, and was a Majestic German flatback, probably 1920s, with the characteristic 7-stave arched back. Quite a modest instrument, but with a fairly strong honest tone. Remarkably suitable to American old-time fiddle tunes. I posted photos a long time ago here and here. It has a crack in the soundboard now, so I haven't been playing it for a while.

Martin

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## billkilpatrick

lovely collection - complimenti. i've seen them before, in other models - but what's the purpose of the two little holes in face of the majestic?

would i be right in guessing that most of these german made mandolins (in the style of your grandfather's "majestic") lack a reinforcement of some sort in the neck?

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## Martin Jonas

Nobody knows what the thinking behind these holes was. Calace put them between bridge and soundhole, many German instruments of the 1920s and 1930s had them on the bass side of the soundboard, like on the Majestic. I've seen them referred to as the "Edelklang" ("noble tone") system, but that only tells us that it was meant to improve the tone rather than, say, provide a receptacle for some attachment. It certainly is _not_ a place for a pickup cable or other electronics -- too early, and too awkwardly placed. You're right that these have no truss rod or such.

How the Majestic brand name came to be attached to a German-made instrument like mine is actually an interesting story: as far as I can tell, the brand name belonged to an American luthier, Gaetano Puntolillo, who started a smallish instrument factory in Hoboken, NJ, in 1900. With that name, it doesn't take much to guess that he was an immigrant from Italy, and unsurprisingly he started out making bowlback mandolins under his own (suitably Italian) name. He then branched out to make exquisitly decorated tenor banjos. "Puntolillo" not being a very approppriate name for such a quintessentially American instrument, he chose the name "Majestic" instead for his banjos, and eventually his archtop guitars. It seems that the brand then suddenly appeared in Germany in the 1920s, on banjos and archtop guitars. The banjos, at least, are clearly derived from the ones made in Hoboken: the lavish decorations are very distinctive. Difficult to say whether these were exported instruments or made in Germany under license. The guitars were sold alongside the banjos and had a triangular logo absent from the American guitars. My guess is that they have nothing whatsoever to do with any Puntolillo designs, but were sold by the German distributor under the Majestic name as a brand extension from the banjos. All of the above is pieced together from bits and pieces posted on the website of Gaetano's grandson, who restarted Majestic Guitars in Hoboken a few years ago, here.

My mandolin, then, is connected to all of the above by the presence of that same triangular logo that appears on the German guitars, which were sold alongside the German banjos, which had the distinctive design of the Hoboken banjos, which were made in the same shop as the Puntolillo bowlbacks... but despite the brand name being owned by an Italian-American luthier, mine clearly could not be more German if it wore Lederhosen and ordered Sauerkraut with Bratwurst.

Martin

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## CraigF

This <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-double-Top-Gelas-Mandola-1961-number-871_W0QQitemZ130191187421QQihZ003QQcategoryZ1017
9QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Gelas Mandola</a> has appeared again. Price seems over the top.

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## brunello97

Martin, 

Thanks for the informative (and personal) post. Below is the only Puntolillo mandolin image I have-just of a label. I've found numerous examples of their guitars, but would appreciate any images of their mandolins. (Even if we wind up cross-pollinating a few threads.

Mick

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## Bill Snyder

I am not sure just how noteworthy it is but here is a decent looking old flatback.

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## brunello97

Bill, I love these flatbacks and this is a nice example: rosewood back, bound fingerboard, compensated bridge. I'm sure it sounds quite good. The prices on these are creeping up as well. I have/have had a few of these types and enjoy them. I finally picked up a Martin A from the era to compare and contrast.

Mick

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## Bruce Clausen

I've been enjoying this conversation-- thanks for initiating it, Bill!

Mick, since it seems you've been studying these instruments a bit, do you notice characteristic differences in sound between bent-top and flat-top models of flatbacks? #I'm playing mostly on a modern flattop (the sort with a bit of induced arch), and wondering what I might gain or lose with a bent top. #Thanks for any insights you (or anyone else out there) can offer.

BC

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## Jim Garber

> Thanks for the informative (and personal) post. Below is the only Puntolillo mandolin image I have-just of a label. I've found numerous examples of their guitars, but would appreciate any images of their mandolins. (Even if we wind up cross-pollinating a few threads.


Mick:
That label is from a bowlback. I would post pics of it but this is a flatback thread. 

Also that one, from eBay in April of last year, was basically a basket case, with the bowl ribs mostly separated.

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## jlatorre

> "hopf" is a name i've seen mentioned and "framus" ...


FWIW, Framus is the trade name of a large stringed instrument factory in Germany. It's still around. A lot of these instruments came into the US by virtue of its being a major supplier of instruments to US Army and Air Force PXs.

My first guitar was a 3/4 size steel-string Framus (it was not very good). I also had a 12-string of theirs that had a nice tone, but the neck was way too weak for the stress and eventually bowed beyond repair. My brother owns a classical Framus that also has a good tone.

All these guitars had a "zero fret"which was one of Framus's signature details. I don't know about their mandos, though.

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## Jim Garber

I will post my "mother-daughter" Leland Brilliantones here once again. Piccolo/Soprano and standard.

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## billkilpatrick

there's some fine looking women in your family, james.

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## brunello97

[QUOTE= (jgarber @ Jan. 19 2008, 15:00)]


> That label is from a bowlback. I would post pics of it but this is a flatback thread.


Yes, I knew this was the case with the Puntolillo, my other pictures of it are kind of grim. I thought to squeeze in a plug for the maker, since he name was up. #Did he make any flatbacks (besides guitars) that anyone is aware of?

Mick

Always nice to see the Lelands, I've been playing mine a lot lately since getting on my Carolan jag. #The rosewood back is a mess and is going to have to get some attention soon.

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## Martin Jonas

> Did he make any flatbacks (besides guitars) that anyone is aware of?


Not that I'm aware of -- my Majestic does of course have his brand name attached to it, but I would bet my bottom dollar on Gaetano having nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Another observation that may go into this thread is that for some reason or other, all of the non-carved flatbacks that have passed through my hands (two waldzithers, one Otwin, one Mid-Mo and the Majestic) have round soundholes, rather than oval. That's rare in bowlbacks (there are some round-hole Calaces) and unheard-of in carved mandos.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Speaking of flatbacks with bad rosewood backs... that reminds me of this one of mine, with "Amati" inlaid on the pickguard.The only other I found was at a music store online and their had a Vega label. I asked around and no one ever heard of it or any connection to Vega. It is currently in the pile to refurbish.

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## mandogerry

Bill sure is right in saying this about his Mid-Mo flatback M-4:

"this flatback from mid-missouri (m-4) should have been placed at the beginning of the thread - a benchmark imho for pure simplicity in design, quality of craftsmanship and excellent sound reproductio:... first amongst equals in flat fellowship. "

But he left out the best part -- a photo of the back! Here is the back of my Big Muddy M-4 (the reborn Mid-Mo). It is a variety of rosewood that is just as lovely as the tone of the little fellow.

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## Eugene

> Speaking of flatbacks with bad rosewood backs... that reminds me of this one of mine, with "Amati" inlaid on the pickguard.The only other I found was at a music store online and their had a Vega label. I asked around and no one ever heard of it or any connection to Vega. It is currently in the pile to refurbish.


That's an odd piece, Jim. The scratchplate and floral inlay look tremendously Bruno-like (who, of course, didn't build their own stuff). The headstock strikes me as being in Washburn's profile. The binding smacks of Regal to me.

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## Eugene

> But he left out the best part -- a photo of the back! Here is the back of my Big Muddy M-4 (the reborn Mid-Mo). It is a variety of rosewood that is just as lovely as the tone of the little fellow.


What species? Is it cocobolo (_Dalbergia retusa_) by any chance?

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## mandogerry

In reply to the question about my Big Muddy's rosewood back:

I believe it is a Bolivian wood known as "Pau Ferro" or "Morado" -- probably not exactly the same as the rosewood of old, but the term "rosewood" these days seems to stretch to include several varieties of wood. There have been some other threads discussing this issue, I recall. If you already know the Latin term, you are probably ahead of me on this one! Whatever it is, it has a rich sweet tone indeed, after only a couple of months of daily playing. And the grain pattern on mine is a real beauty.

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## mandogerry

Can't let all of those years of high school Latin go to waste. Morado/Pau Ferro does not = Cocobolo/Dalbergia retusa. Its Latin term is, according to a couple of Web sources, Machaerium scleroxylon.

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## brunello97

Pau ferro (from my limited research) is not from the proper rosewood (Dalbergia) family and hence not directly related to the cocobolo(s). #I've seen a few references to its species name, Machaerium #schleroxylum, appearing the most often. # The name Caesalpinia echinata shows up for pau ferro often, but it seems that is referring to ersatz rosewood used for fretboards, bindings, etc.

I am by no means any kind of authority on this stuff. #Credit goes to Paul H and to Eugene for working to leverage in a specificity to our conversations about woods and opting for the Latin names to help avoid common-names confusions. #If anybody can straighten out my above postulations, I'd appreciate it.

Mick

Beautiful wood, on the Mid/Big MuddyMo. #I'm glad to see them rising Phoenix-like again. I've #never played one but appreciate their design elegance and obviously am impressed by the earnest testimonials. #I hope I get the chance one day.

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## Steve Cat

I don't want to sound like I'm critical of anybody's mando but I just upgraded from my cheapie, yes it is all relative. I was down to the Eastman 504 and the Big Muddy M-4W, with the wider neck, both about the same price. The Eastman was a beautiful instrument with a very nice finish but sounded thin compared to the Big Muddy. Also after using the wider neck for a while I really got to like it. In all fairness the picture of the Big Muddy back look much nicer than they do in real life. I wish I liked the sound of the Eastman better because of its violin vibe, I don't know what I'd call the Big Muddy vibe, maybe Home Depot. But the sound of the Big Muddy was so full there was no contest for me, for Jethro Burns stuff, Classical, and Ry Cooder chording, this mandpo is now my new mistress.

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## brunello97

Here one of the nicer looking Stromberg-Voisinet FBs. Sold for the very reasonable $162 on the ebay. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=009

I never really liked the headstocks on these, but I rather like the overall vibe of this one. Nice looking rosewood back.

(I'm just wondering, as this thread begins to gain traction-to my great pleasure- whether its inclusion in the "C-M-R" section is the most functional.  Perhaps if located in the 'Vintage' section we might avoid some of the probable overlaps of discussion and information. Is it possible for Scott to move an entire thread?)

Mick

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## Jeff Hildreth

Caesalpinia echinata is a "brazilwood" AKA pernambuco and not pao ferro (ironwood)
Boivian rosewood is also known as morado and pao ferro and about 20 others.. still not a rosewood.

I have quite a bit of it I have gathered over the years.. and bought under several names at wildly varying prices..
nice stuff.

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## Eugene

"Rosewood" in itself is not a family. #Believe it or not, rosewoods are of the bean family, which is tremendous and diverse, spanning the mighty rosewoods, locusts, and acacias to the diminutive peas and clovers. #True rosewoods are of the genus _Dalbergia_. #I suspect the Big Muddy pictured here is backed in _Machaerium scleroxylon_, yet another bean to produce decent timber. #However, in spite of it sometimes getting branded "Bolivian rosewood", I don't consider pau ferro to be a true rosewood. #Personally, I think the hype surrounding the term "rosewood" (and its resultant over-application to any darkish tropical wood with darker figure in order to sell more timber) is not entirely warranted.

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## Jeff Hildreth

Note that C A V I U N A  is the latest buzzword in the world of Spanish made classical guitars

it means absolutely nothing and encompasses any wood that looks like "rosewood"

This came about after the brazilioan rosewodd busts.
Joke is Spanish makers had been using "caviuna" and calling it brazilian for years.
Now buyers do not and cannot know what wood is what due to the hyping and marketing by wood dealers such as Maderas Barber and others.
Some makers, whether knowingly or unknowingly ,perpetuating the myth by using anything and calling it what sells. Ergo C A V I U N A !
or another favorite.. RIO rosewood...

I am in the camp of looks good, sounds good.. use it.


 CAVIUNA Coming soon to America along with A C A J O U , anything that looks like "mahogany"

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## brunello97

An interesting link to a Portuguese language wikipedia site on Pau-Ferro. 

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pau-ferro

Seems potentially useful to confuse ourselves with the Bolivian 'Rosewood'/Morado (aka purple) nom de bois rather than getting into the whole Mata of ironwoods. #Or to beef up our latin.

A shame that so much of the true rosewood was decimated. #The older bowlbacks and some fbs in my modest herd have such a amazing array of colors and grain patterns. #

Mick

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## Bruce Clausen

Cocobolo back (Laughlin mandolin).

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## mandogerry

I'd probably be upset If I thought that Mike Dulak was making a fortune by calling his M-4's "rosewood" instead of "ersatz rosewood not to be confused with the endangered true rosewood." But, frankly, I don't know how the man makes a penny on his instruments. 

Whatever the wood is, the M-4 sounds great (and mine truly does look as good in person as in the photo). If I get tired of playing it today, and making my other more costly mandos jealous, I should settle in with a big bowl of Häagen-Dazs, the "Scandinavian" ice cream born in New Jersey.

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## billkilpatrick

> ... I should settle in with a big bowl of Häagen-Dazs, the "Scandinavian" ice cream born in New Jersey.


as i recall, boysenberry was my favorite ...

bagpipe makers have a similar obsession with hard woods - their favorite being african blackwood with rosewood as an "also ran." 

the pau ferro rosewood on my m-4 is nowhere near as photogenic as the beautiful matching pair you've illustrated earlier - really lovely (i note the grainy "M" for "MIKE" motif on yours.) whether a pukah rosewood or a near-mahogany, i much prefer the warmer tone of these to (what i would imagine would be) the brighter tone of maple.

what i look for in any instrument (charango in particular) is a nice tight grain on the spruce top. the backing could be made from almost anything - past tense armadillo and reinforced fiberglass included - but it don't mean thing (imho) if the top don't make the grain.

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## Steve Cat

I absolutely love cocobolo. Don't know its qualities as a tonewood, its really hard so maybe maple like. The quality I like best is that it has a built in finish. Sanding with 600, then 1200 and put on a buffer it ends up shining like nitrocellulose. The sanding dust is very irritating to the nose, but man I love the way it looks. 

The rosewood back on my Big Muddy has a mice grain pattern but is not shiny or doesn't have the depth of Cocobolo............BUT it sure sounds sweet

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## Eugene

The cocobolo for my guitar-to-be by Gary Demos:

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## mandogerry

billkilpatrick has noticed the secret "Da Vinci Code" on the back of my Big Muddy, cleverly inserted by its creator Mike Dulak. As Bill said,

"The pau ferro rosewood on my m-4 is nowhere near as photogenic as the beautiful matching pair you've illustrated earlier - really lovely (i note the grainy "M" for "MIKE" motif on yours.)"

When the M-4 first arrived at my home, bought only on the basis of sound clips and two photos, I thought the pattern looked eerily like Munch's "The Scream." Then the true message emerged.....

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## Bill Snyder

> ...(I'm just wondering, as this thread begins to gain traction-to my great pleasure- whether its inclusion in the "C-M-R" section is the most functional. # Perhaps if located in the 'Vintage' section we might avoid some of the probable overlaps of discussion and information. #Is it possible for Scott to move an entire thread?)
> 
> Mick


Mick they have moved entire threads before, but I do not think this one belongs in the vintage since many of the mandolins talked about here are current models.

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## brunello97

Eugene,

I checked out Gary Demos' website. Very nice looking work. I can understand your attraction. It is interesting what he says about the 'unstressed' sides and their effect on soundchamber vibrations. Did you meet through your Ohio connections?

Mick

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## Eugene

Indeed. #He lives about eight minutes down the road. #We met a year or two ago when he started writing, inquiring about the guitar society. #We were friends before I commissioned the guitar, and I really wasn't in the market for another, but he made an offer... #I like his classicals quite a bit, but his steel-strings are extraordinary; however, flat-tops are just something I don't really do any more.

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## Bill Snyder

Old Regal.

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## Martin Jonas

Reasonably rare and interesting: German maker Boehm made their name with their waldzithers, but they also made mandolins (which they called "waldoline", as a brand extension of their waldzither). Most of their instruments, waldzithers and mandolins alike, had portuguese fan-type tuners. Here is one with a more conventional slotted headstock. Unlike most German flatback mandolins of the period, this is a true flatback, not a 7-stave bulgeback.

The overall length is given as 80cm, which probably makes it a mandola rather than a mandolin -- most likely pretty much identical to their waldzither minus one string.

Martin

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## brunello97

So, Martin, do we branch out into a Bulgebacks of Note thread....? #

I didn't realize Boehm was a Hamburg concern. #One wing of my in-laws are from there and I have always enjoyed visiting. # The type-setting on the label seems older. #Any idea when this was made? #The Steintorweg address made me wince. #So much senseless destruction there.

The Boehm appears to have a pair of nice pieces of rosewood for the back. #Or else? #

Do you ever find evidence on German instruments of the 'grain painting' one finds on some Chicago instruments, or on Pennsylvania-D(e)ut(s)ch furniture? # Which to me is a lovely tradition in its own right. 

thanks,

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

> So, Martin, do we branch out into a Bulgebacks of Note thread....?


No need for branching out -- Bill's initial post that started this thread was about German bulgebacks.




> I didn't realize Boehm was a Hamburg concern. One wing of my in-laws are from there and I have always enjoyed visiting.  The type-setting on the label seems older. Any idea when this was made?


Boehm in some ways were the equivalent of Gibson. They started in the 1890s by taking a regional and nearly-obsolete instrument -- the Thuringian waldzither, derived in unbroken tradition from the renaissance cittern -- and rebranding it with a vast marketing effort to make it a nationwide success. The feature most obviously associated with their instrument were the fan-type tuners, and their marketing campaign resulted in the widespread belief (still persisting today) that all waldzither have these tuners, indeed that the tuners are the defining feature of the waldzither. Not so -- the Thuringian instrument had either pegs or (later) conventional geared tuners. Even Boehm sold their instruments optionally with conventional tuners for those who realise that the fan tuners are more hassle than they're worth (and of course the one currently for sale is one such). I don't have a Boehm instrument, but I understand that they have a very nice tone and are well-made. In fact, I'm starting to get tempted by this one, as I've been meaning to check out a Boehm instrument but didn't want the hassle of making double loop-end strings. Let's see what the price does.

Date-wise, I believe their greatest success came in the 1920s and that is when I would think this one was made. 




> Do you ever find evidence on German instruments of the 'grain painting' one finds on some Chicago instruments, or on Pennsylvania-D(e)ut(s)ch furniture?  Which to me is a lovely tradition in its own right.


No, not really. Most German instruments I've seen have quite nice solid wood, even when they are otherwise rather forgettable instruments.

Martin

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## brunello97

Thanks, Martin, for the background. I am a big fan of the general group of rosewood flat-back American mandolins. I have a couple now out of the L+H/Regal stable that are really warm and delightful. That this Boehm has such an interesting context as you describe (and is in the mandola/octave scale length) does make it attractive. It is a nice looking box of wood and the headstock repair doesn't look too intimidating. I imagine it will bid up a bit. I would toss my hat in for a bit, but wouldn't want to cross you, so let me know your intentions. The shipping is a bit steep so I am most likely boxed in a bit that way. These links to pre-war German cities always make me a bit wistful--I'm Irish and an architect to boot, so the melancholia/idealism comes naturally.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I was just contacte by Willi Henkes, a well-respected German luthier. He has these Stromberg-Voisenet copies on his Web site.

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## Bob A

Reversible!

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## Martin Jonas

> It is a nice looking box of wood and the headstock repair doesn't look too intimidating. I imagine it will bid up a bit. I would toss my hat in for a bit, but wouldn't want to cross you, so let me know your intentions. The shipping is a bit steep so I am most likely boxed in a bit that way.


Mick,

I already have too many of these old German instruments, so feel free to go for it. Still at 2 Euro right now, and as I don't think they are very collectible in Germany, I could imagine it staying quite reasonable, even with the shipping to the US.

I would expect it to be a quality instrument, anyway.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Martin, I will keep an eye on this. By coincidence, I just acquired a Martin A, which I've long been wanting. My instrument account funds are tight, but that long scale is attractive.

BTW If the seller is to be believed this flatback is from a Louis Fernandez in Algeria. (Made there? Or labeled by a dealer?)

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.fr/Mandoline-Algerienne-de-marque-Fernandez-a-Oran_W0QQitemZ320210664855QQihZ011QQcategoryZ10
4485QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.fr/Mandoli....iewItem</a>

'Of Note' nonetheless.

Mick

----------


## mandoisland

Thanks Jim for the picture of the two mandolins by Willi Henkes.

Today I have got a big German flatback - however it is not a mandolin but a 14-string Waldzither. The luthier Hans Hau lived in the hometown of my father, and my first guitar was bilt by Hans Hau.

This instrument was called Hau-Zither in the catalog of Hans Hau, at the moment I do not know if it is different from other 14-string Waldzither instruments.

This instrument has a back and sides made from beautiful wood - I hope you enjoy the pictures.

----------


## mandoisland

The back of this instrument:

----------


## mandoisland

Hau-Zither together with my guitar branded "Walthari Mittenwald" (it is a little bit smaller than a normal classical guitar)

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## billkilpatrick

any opinion on these? i've seen both shapes up for auction from time to time but the weirdness of the one looking like some sort of giant squid put me off. 350 seems a fair price for the two - just wanted to know if anyone has played either and what sort of tone can i expect:

http://cgi.ebay.it/ECCEZIO....5921236

----------


## brunello97

Bill, for a guy plays a strung up armadillo, you are a little squeamish around gli Strumenti di mare.

I like the looks of them both-very romantic. # It seems as if more than a few have passed by with the 'Neapolitan School' royal papers, often with a large painting or decal of a volutuossa on the back. #Perhaps the school contracted to bring these in for students? #I have had a mandolinetto hankering for awhile now. #The Howe-Orme versions or the L+H/Sears/Wards models often go for a bit of a premium here-perhaps due to their scarcity--though I have heard good things viz H-O.# 

Still if I was strumming an 8-string seppie and singing to my beloved, the TONE would only be one part of my concerns. 

Mick

350e doesn't seem like a bad price for the two to me.

----------


## billkilpatrick

"voluttuossa" sent me scurrying to the dictionary ... grazie!

i've seen those decals that you mention and often wondered if it was just one instrument doing the rounds ... poor old thing, bought, sold and then sold on again, for what ever reason, almost immediately.

a closer examination of the mandolinetto photos revealed what might be warping in the neck. that and the jules verne apparition beside it caused me to bid on another, new mandolinetto from - i would guess by the lotus inlay on the back - south-east asia.

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## JEStanek

Chris Baird who builds the Arches mandolins has this page where he describes tonal differences of back woods. I never quite got the right timing to order a flat back from him (spruce over cocobolo would have been my choice) because he made great looking and sounding ones. 

This past summer I had the great fortune of getting a cant topped flat back made by Jack Spira with a Western Australian Sheoak back over engleman spruce top. I had an Eastman F4 style before and the Spira has such a great tone. The Sheoak has the same density as rose mahogany the New South Wales rosewood. I love the tone. I hope we can add this specimen to the collection of Flat Backs of Note.

I totally agree on how nice the Big Muddy/Mid Mos are. I've had a chance to play several and liked the walnut, rosewood and all mahog ones the best. The thread has some real beauties in it. Thanks Bill.

Jamie

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## JEStanek

Here's the back...
Jamie

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## billkilpatrick

wow! ... the sound hole looks like something to ward off the evil-eye - commanding ... as is the psychedelic grain pattern on the back. what animal is inlaid on the 10th fret? beautiful instrument.

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## billkilpatrick

these appear from time to time and i think they're definitely noteworthy. this is a "capri 52" model mandolin from the levin company in sweden. taken off german ebay, details says it was made in 1951 - in beautiful nick. i put a bid in for it but i suspect it will go for a lot more than i'll be willing to spend:

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## billkilpatrick

... and the back:

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## JEStanek

Bill,

Thanks for the compliment. Here is my thread from the post a pic section on my Spira. The soundhole rosette is supposed to look like a cat's eye. I had an old clip art bit with the tail modified of a cat inlaid at fret 10 instead of 12 (so it could be bigger).

When Jack sent me wood samples to consider for the back the Sheoak with it's crazy figure won in an instant, plus I have two orange tabby cats. This mando, to over-extend a bad methaphor, is the cat's pajamas to me.

Jamie

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## brunello97

Here is a Galiano labeled flatback that for me further confuses the EastCoastRim menagerie of makers.

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/A-Galiano-antique-Mandolin-Vintage-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ260198597034QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1  0179Q
QrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQc  mdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/A-Galia....iewItem</a>

The form is somewhat reminiscent of Weymann mandolutes and the label is quite different from the more frequently seen Galiano labels featuring either Rafael Ciani's name or RC initials.

Now that Hubert's new book on Washburn instruments is helping me make some sense of the various GreatLakesRim builders, I'm hoping for some of the same viz la nostra costa di levante.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a another, similar 1949 Levin mandolin on eBay in Denmark. This one has a Buy It Now price.

----------


## billkilpatrick

> Here is a Galiano labeled flatback that for me further confuses the EastCoastRim menagerie of makers.
> 
> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/A-Galiano-antique-Mandolin-Vintage-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ260198597034QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1  0179Q
> 
> QrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQc  mdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/A-Galia....iewItem</a>
> 
> The form is somewhat reminiscent of Weymann mandolutes and the label is quite different from the more frequently seen Galiano labels featuring either Rafael Ciani's name or RC initials.
> 
> Now that Hubert's new book on Washburn instruments is helping me make some sense of the various GreatLakesRim builders, I'm hoping for some of the same viz la nostra costa di levante.
> ...


my bowlback was made by the same ... well, the sticker in it is identical to the one pictured above. if i remember correctly, these instruments were made in the united states under the auspices of the washburn company. don't know why but new jersey comes to mind.

i've heard of "pac-rim" but this is first i've heard of "eastcoast-rim" - "great lakes-rim" is cool, too.

howz'about "mare nost-rim?"

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## brunello97

Would that be the case, Bill, I would be very happy. Maybe the Danish-Levin instruments can prompt a tasty 'matjes and mandolins' diversion. I'm going to head up to my fishmonger this morning.

The Levins have what appears to be exquisite wood tops-and the back on the ebay.dane site is muy rico. I guess you could count on the availability of fine lumber up there. Bill are you considering acquiring one of these?

Mick

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## billkilpatrick

i floundered a bit on your fishmonger reference, i'm afraid ...

i've got a bid in on a levin that's up for auction on german ebay. if the bidding goes any where near the $800.00 asking price for the one jim posted, i'll be out of the running.

somewhere in the "bowlbacks of note" thread there are photos of my "a.galiani."

i wonder if our host will one day say "no more photos! - we've run out of room?"

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## Jim Garber

> my bowlback was made by the same ... well, the sticker in it is identical to the one pictured above. if i remember correctly, these instruments were made in the united states under the auspices of the washburn company. don't know why but new jersey comes to mind.


New Jersey, maybe. Washburn? Well, aside from the fact there there wasn't a Washburn Co -- it was an Lyon & Healy Brand -- I never heard fo that connection. There were plenty of New York makers like Ricca who copuld have had something to do with it. More likely, I think Galiano was a fairly large concern and made mandolins for others and may very well be associated with Oscar Schmidt of NJ.

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## billkilpatrick

i stand corrected. an "a. galiano" search produced mention of luthiers cerrito, ciani, grauso and nettuno, all of whom worked in new york city using the "a. galiano" brand name for their instruments.

now that i know that ... i'd like to know which of these 4 gentleman made my mandolin?

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## billkilpatrick

incidentally, my meagre, hoping-for-a-bargain offer for the levin flatback has been superseded and i won't be making a further bid - if anyone else is interested.

----------


## billkilpatrick

having never seen a mandolin or any other instrument with a horizontal grain on the sound board, this could be of note for an entirely different reason (taken off ebay france :Smile: 

... later - actually, it looks as if the grain is superficial, painted on. but the question is, would horizontal grain impede the sound board?

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## Bill Snyder

Bill you are right that is faux graining and it is supposed to look like flamed maple. The flame on real maple runs that way on instruments, but the flame runs perpendicualr to the grain. I suspect that the grain running from neck block to heal is more a structural consideration than tonal, but I could be mistaken.

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## billkilpatrick

here's a distinctive, curious looking mandolin played by jacob reuven:

http://www.mandolinmusic.co.il/

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## brunello97

With Hubert's Washburn tome at my fingertips, I'm able to make a stab at identifying this Style G -(possibly '23(?) due to black binding, etc.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=015

This just went for $232 on the ebay. #It looks like a pretty cleanly designed example here and #perhaps maybe the competition for Martin's A models of the time. # The Washburn ad Hubert published has them going for $20 at the time. ($245 in today's money-so it held its value well.) #Any idea what Martin As were selling for in the '20s?

While rising somewhat in price, at this kind of money though, they remain an uncanny value. #

Mick

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## billkilpatrick

would these have had truss support in the neck - adjustable or not?

martin prices seem to have gone through the roof.

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## brunello97

Bill, as far as I know none of these flatback Washburns featured adjustable truss rods. #You've probably read some of the discussions of the 'black fibre' reinforcing in the necks of the higher end archtop models. # #That said, I have not seen much in the way of neck problems in these Chicago flatbacks-not that I've seen all so many-but they seem to have good wood, geometry and construction going for them. #I've seen more problems with top distortion around the soundhole than anything else. #The rosewood back Regal I have has bit of top wave but it is minor. #And a minor annoyance on a $125 mandolin which sounds this great. #(Remember, we are trying to keep these a secret.) # My Martin A has a small piece of wood added to strengthen the top to the neck side of the top brace which I imagine helps stiffen this whole area against rotational forces from the string tension. # #Or at least that is what it feels like when I stick my finger up in there.

Martin prices have appeared to go up of late. #I was fortunate to get an A recently at a very reasonable price from a fellow here at the MC and I am thrilled with it. # I think it plays and sounds distinctly better than the same caliber L+H mandolins I've played, but that should not be seen as an inherent knock on them. #For 1/2 or 1/3 the price of a Martin A you can get a lot of Chicago mandolin. #This last Washburn G looked very clean. #Even though I hardly needed it, I'm kicking myself for not bidding. #Prices for those are only going to go up. # #I like the way they look as well.

You seem to be in the market for a flatback?

Mick

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## billkilpatrick

no-no ... well, yes - but my heart belongs to mike. i ordered a mandola from mike dulac and changed my mind soon after. i thought i might have preferred the lower register but decided against it. having already sent half the money as down-payment, i thought "what the hell ..." and opted for a new, supremely simple, elegantissimo M-1 model.

other than open my eyes to the wonders of the flat-back, this thread has also made me appreciate my existing M-4 much more. i've seen similar, almond-shaped mandolins up for offer on ebay france and germany but they only cause me to see a-new what i've already got.

... always on the look-out for a bargain, however.

- bill 

ps - my copy of "the complete mandolinist" arrived yesterday. i feel smarter just looking at it.

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## fatt-dad

Four pages and not one Flatiron? Somewhere around here there's 32 pages or so on these. Come on. . . . . there's the modern flatback benchmark

Flatiron mandolin.
The modern flatback benchmark.
Please make them again!

Oops, wrong thread.

f-d

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## Bill Snyder

Fatt-dad take a look at the mandolins being made by Dave Newton. They are similar.

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## billkilpatrick

i wish someone would delve into the history of the flatiron or the army navy mandolin - search results were hefty. i've never played one or even looked for sound samples. off hand, i would have thought their design would be more ancient than modern.

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## trebleclef528

Perhaps not particularly a flatback of note.... but I'd note that <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/IL-GLOBO-VINTAGE-ITALIAN-FLAT-BACKED-MANDOLIN-VGC-N-R_W0QQitemZ320215895910QQihZ011QQcateg
oryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a>is the first flat back that I've seen by Il Globo who are better known for their fairly plain bowlbacks. I wonder if there are any flatback De meglio's out there in the big mandolin world?

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## Martin Jonas

I haven't seen any actual de Meglio flatbacks, but I've seen ones with the typical de Meglio scratchplate and side holes.

Most startling flatback I've seen was a Calace, dated 1944, on Ebay about three or four years ago. Clearly, a wartime austerity product, which combined a typical Calace soundboard with a simple flatback. I bid on it, too, but didn't get it.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Ever wondered what the intermediate stages in the evolution of the Brazilian bandolim were? Here is an old Giannini -- the seller says it's Italian, but it's clearly not. Looks not unlike an old Martin: canted top and flat back. I'd say the 1922 is not the date of manufacture, but either the date of an exhibition prize or the start of the company. Still, 1920s or 1930s sounds about right.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> Most startling flatback I've seen was a Calace, dated 1944, on Ebay about three or four years ago. Clearly, a wartime austerity product, which combined a typical Calace soundboard with a simple flatback. I bid on it, too, but didn't get it.


Here is a picture of that Calace.

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## brunello97

Very interesting mandolin, Martin. #(I love the name Porfirio Martins.) #The headstock, tuners and fretboard recall Sicilian work, but the neck heel is more guitar-like. #The choice of woods seems New World. #Part of the evolutionary chain, I suppose. #I've got some pretty old Jacob recordings, though none as old as this piece for sure. # #I've often thought that the bandolim was reminiscent of the German style 'bulgeback' mandolins as you call them. # The Paracho mandolin I have seems to have characteristics of all three-but I have no idea where that tradition arrived from. Lots of double strung instruments across the spectrum of Mexican music.

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

Yet another interesting German mandolinetto here. Fascinating detailling: I've never seen wavy binding like this and the headstock and neck shapes are fairly curious, with little or no taper. Lovely wooden case, too.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Who said the Vietnamese had no mandolin tradition? #Here is an old flatback made by the great-great-grandfather of Antonio Tsai's plucky inlay artists in Hanoi back in 1922! #Looking at the headstock, their tastes in decoration were just as flaky then as now.

Martin

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## billkilpatrick

... more "batty" (diner-dinner-dinner-dinner) than flaky - wonderful all the same.

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## brunello97

Now there's a version of the bis 'bottle opener' headstock I sink my fangs into....This was no doubt the Max Schreck signature model. 

Martin, where do you find these things? The mandolinetto is very charming.

Mick

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## Neil Gladd

> This was no doubt the Max Schreck signature model.


It looks more like the Adam West signature model. Holy headstock, Batman!

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## RSW

Better be carefull when you tuning the inner courses, you may end up playing your mandolin only at night.... gee, can we see what's below?

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## billkilpatrick

just saw it on german ebay ... of note, to be sure. you'd want to be careful tuning it.

incidentally ... just in case my arrested sense of humor went way under your head(s) - down around the ankles somewhere:

question: how does alfred call batman to the dinner table?

answer: he opens the door to the bat cave and yells "dinner-dinner-dinner-dinner ..."

i've got more of these if you want.

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## Jim Garber

> Yet another interesting German mandolinetto here. Fascinating detailling: I've never seen wavy binding like this and the headstock and neck shapes are fairly curious, with little or no taper. Lovely wooden case, too.
> 
> Martin


Martin:
 Do you have larger pics of this? From the small ones on eBay it looks like std checker binding.

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## Martin Jonas

No, I don't, but I don't think it's normal checker binding either. The soundhole rosette, at least, looks like there are black triangular spikes sticking out from the soundhole, with the space in between being the spruce of the soundboard, rather than MOP or other binding material. The binding around the edge of the soundhole looks to me like triangular black and white pieces, but that may be an optical illusion. Close-ups would clarify this, but at least on the Ebay photos it looks very unusual to me.

Martin

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## JEStanek

I really like the look of that headstock. It's almost worth the price as a wall hanger at the moment. Is the celluloid thing shaped like a L&H style A tailpiece supposed to be decorative, a string dampener, a broken tailpiece?

Jamie

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## Jim Garber

> Is the celluloid thing shaped like a L&H style A tailpiece supposed to be decorative, a string dampener, a broken tailpiece?


That is a standard accessory for these bowlbacks that didn;t come equipped with attached armrests. I guess it prevented your sleeve (or cufflinks) from getting caught in the strings or from rubbing your right forearm raw.

Oh man that Fledermaus mandolin will give me strange dreams. For some odd reason I can figure it out. Since Vietnam was a colony of France it looks like it has some french influences and maybe even was made in France and imported to Hanoi back then. Or the maker emigrated over there. I wish that the label were more intact. Other than the bat-stock it looks somewhat like some of the JTL flatbacks I have seen. Perhaps the vietnamese luthier copied one?

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## brunello97

I guess there are variants of the two-point design still to be explored. Here is one to check off the list.

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-MANDOLIN-UNUSUAL-Shape-Needs-HELP_W0QQitemZ300200654106QQihZ020QQcategoryZ10179  QQs
sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage....iewItem</a>

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Lowell Levinger has one.

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## billkilpatrick

seems to be a design/function breakdown here ... they remind me of those brooms in "fantasia:"

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## Jim Garber

Or someone who is experimenting with Photoshop!

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## David Newton

This one is perfect for whatever you guys are doing here. What is it your doing?

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## Jim Garber

> I guess there are variants of the two-point design still to be explored. Here is one to check off the list.
> 
> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-MANDOLIN-UNUSUAL-Shape-Needs-HELP_W0QQitemZ300200654106QQihZ020QQcategoryZ10179  QQs
> 
> sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage....iewItem</a>


I actually had a weak moment and bid at last minute for this one. Luckily (!) someone else was crazier than me.

Maybe I should have Dave Newton make me a high quality one. Sure is ugly and odd tho. Right up my alley...

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## Bill Snyder

For some reason that mandolin (not Dave's the one above that) makes me think of the penguins in Mary Poppins.

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## billkilpatrick

> I actually had a weak moment and bid at last minute for this one. Luckily (!) someone else was crazier than me.


... wish i could say "i don't know what you're on about ..."

- been there!

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## Jake Wildwood

Hi there everyone...

Was told I might like to post this mandolin here. 

J. Gindlesperger of Kansas City built this for my Great Uncle around the turn of the century (we believe late 1890s).





This was my first instrument, believe it or not, and remains my favorite mandolin I've ever played -- I get others and find myself selling them because I don't play them! Just recently I reset the neck and cleaned up all the hardware and this is the result. Plays like butter and sounds like diamonds!

But all that aside -- anyone know anything more about Grindlesperger? Seen any others? I know he also made guitars.

Jake

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## billkilpatrick

the flatback below is made by ozark in romania (i think) and is sometimes called a "portugese" mandolin. they're usually made from solid wood; very well priced and pop up often enough on european ebay sites.

why is it such a turkey?

ozark make other models as well and i'm sure for what they are, they're all very good instruments ... but this model, for me, has all the allure of a soviet-style tenement in cold-war, east berlin.

----------


## JeffD

> Pau ferro (from my limited research) is not from the proper rosewood (Dalbergia) family and hence not directly related to the cocobolo(s). #I've seen a few references to its species name, Machaerium #schleroxylum, appearing the most often. # The name Caesalpinia echinata shows up for pau ferro often,


I just had this conversation (or one just like it) with a fly fishing buddy. The guy knows the latin name for all the 17,000 bugs I call mayflies.

----------


## Jim MacDaniel

It isn't German, but I don't think Chris Baird built a large number of them, and my Arches flat-top has a flat-back as well so I _think_ it adds value to this thread.  #

This is by far my favorite mandolin I have ever owned to date. It is a wonderful player, has great tone, is exceptionally well made, and is beautiful to look at as well IMHO...

----------


## Jim MacDaniel

Cocobolo back...

----------

Denman John

----------


## Jim MacDaniel

...and I _love_ the patterned binding's contrast against the top and cocobolo sides.

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## Bill Snyder

That is certainly _noteworthy_ Jim. A beautiful instrument.

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## brunello97

Jake, the Gindlesperger mandolin looks very nice. It appears to still be in excellent condition. There is an example of a Gindlesperger harp-guitar on this site which perhaps you have found:

http://www.harpguitars.net/history/makers.htm

and he is also listed on the Mugwumps site, active into the '20s. I'd enjoy learning more about his work.

Mick

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## billkilpatrick

here's a flatback beastie on german ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.de/einziga....9835277

----------


## billkilpatrick

> It isn't German, but I don't think Chris Baird built a large number of them, and my Arches flat-top has a flat-back as well so I _think_ it adds value to this thread.  
> 
> This is by far my favorite mandolin I have ever owned to date. It is a wonderful player, has great tone, is exceptionally well made, and is beautiful to look at as well IMHO...


beautiful looking instrument - fine detail on the binding as well.

without looking through e-v-e-r-y photograph, i thought flatbacks normally have non-adjustable bridges.

----------


## Fliss

Like the Arches, Jim  

If we're including new flatbacks, here is my flat top built by luthier Phil Davidson. From this view you can see the unusual angle of the neck - Phil's rationale, stated on his website, is that this puts more energy in, and therefore more energy out. It certainly is a fantastically responsive mandolin.

Fliss

----------


## Fliss

... one of the other noteworthy features of my Davidson mando is the lengthwise oval soundhole. 

Fliss

----------

Denman John

----------


## trebleclef528

> the flatback below is made by ozark in romania (i think) and is sometimes called a "portugese" mandolin. #they're usually made from solid wood; very well priced and pop up often enough on european ebay sites.
> 
> why is it such a turkey?
> 
> ozark make other models as well and i'm sure for what they are, they're all very good instruments ... but this model, for me, has all the allure of a soviet-style tenement in cold-war, east berlin.


Your quite right Bill it is made by Ozark and is the newer version of the one that you can see <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mandolin_W0QQitemZ170198655628QQihZ007QQcategoryZ1  0179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewIte

m" target="_blank">here</a> on ebay. #The new version is a matt finish as opposed to the previous which had a fairly heavy varnish.

These are not flat backs but "semi roundback" mandolins, "offically" referred to as Portugese Style. Our association (the #LGMA)
have 85 of these. For a solid wood instrument they are superb value for money. We use them for our beginners classes, mainly as we don't want parents going out and buying an expensive mandolin, (or indeed a peice of rubbish) until they know their child is going to continue with lessons. Similarly having a stock of mandolins for adults who don't have their own is also a good idea.

Of course or hope is, and it tends to happen, that as new players progress they will start to upgrade to good flats backs and bowlbacks.

I did a wee (wee - Scottish word for small /little tee hee) write up about these mandolins in our November 2006 newsletter which you can view or download as a pdf here... in fact you can view or download all our newsletters form our newsletter page .

----------


## Eugene

> ...and I _love_ the patterned binding's contrast against the top and cocobolo sides.


Very attractive, Jim. Is the radical shim under the fingerboard solely to accommodate the adjustable, Gibson-style bridge? How does that blend into the neck?

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Originally Posted by  (billkilpatrick @ Mar. 06 2008, 10:27)
> 
> the flatback below is made by ozark in romania (i think) and is sometimes called a "portugese" mandolin. they're usually made from solid wood; very well priced and pop up often enough on european ebay sites.
> 
> why is it such a turkey?
> 
> ozark make other models as well and i'm sure for what they are, they're all very good instruments ... but this model, for me, has all the allure of a soviet-style tenement in cold-war, east berlin.
> 
> 
> ...


Slight correction. They are not made by Ozark, they are made by Hora. Ozark is simply the house brand for "folk instruments" distributed by Stentor Music in the UK, similar the the Ashbury brand used by Hobgoblin. Stentor put the Ozark brand on lots of mandolins from lots of countries, so by itself it doesn't mean anything.

This particular Hora model, their "Portuguese 1" model (there is a "Portuguese 2" as well, which has a narrower body), comes with a wide variety of different scratchplate designs, all of them vile to various extents, but the one Bill posted is worse than normal. Troubadour distribute the same instrument at slightly higher prices, but you get David Kilpatrick's personal attention and quality control, plus he very wisely asked them to make them simply without any scratchplate and with a blonde back/neck. Much nicer-looking that way.

Martin

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## brunello97

Here is a Vega flat-back (which I'm not so familiar seeing.) Seems like it is in the model/market range as the Washburn models and the Martin A (which we've had some discussion of the relative merits.) Has anyone had experience with a Vega fb? Does their otherwise good reputation carry over? Current price on this one is in the low $4Cs. Less than a Martin but higher than the Washburn fbs.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=011

Mick

----------


## Onesound

Hi Fliss,
Does Phil Davidson have a website? Nice looking instrument, BTW, do you have any sound clips?

----------


## JEStanek

Onesound... here is Phil Davidson's Website from the builder's section.

JimMcD... I was close to placing an order with Chris for basically that same model when he closed his orders. His rope binding was key in asking Jack Spira to include them in the one he built for me. You've got a real keeper (I've played one of his octave mandos).

Eugene, If you look 

here... you can see how Chris's elevated fingerboard looks in relation to the top.

Jamie

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a FBON: Seiffert in the classifieds.

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting British import(?) labelled H. Webb. It has some DeMeglio features.

----------


## Bill Snyder

Jim, that listing has been removed.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Jim, that listing has been removed.


Sorry, I fixed that link above. And here is one pic.

----------


## brunello97

Jim, I'm still having trouble with the link, though it could be at my end. Very interesting mandolin. Nice form and I like the headstock with slightly longish tuners. The bridge seems to clash with the inlay/decalomania but the oval hole - wide teardrop have a great balance. Is it a flatback or a 'bulgeback' as Martin has christened them?

Mick

----------


## Joe Mendel

Jim,
 You are making me hate myself for selling the Arches. I knew you'd love it, I still do. I guess it joins a long list of instruments that I wish I had back, but MAS strikes hard.

----------


## billkilpatrick

i like the "longish" tuners as well - very citternesque.

----------


## brunello97

The link is working for me this am. #I like the looks of the Webb, funny decals and all. #Any guesses on its true origins? #UK made or imported/relabeled? # #The sides and back look like rosewood, but the heavy stain could be deceiving me. (Note: looking at this view makes me rethink the rosewood idea altogether.)

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

Walnut, I would think. May well be UK-made -- reminds me a bit of the "Neapolitan College" mandolinettos which I think are also UK-made. Nice enough, but I find the bridge position jarring. Too far back aesthetically, and on top of the painting. I don't think that's a setup issue, either: the bridge seems roughly where it should be judging from the distance to the 12th fret.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

English walnut on a mandolin? Now that would be appealing to a yank (though I'm no yankee) in its own right..... The floral swags do seem an awkward afterthought.  

Are the muses on the backs of the NC mandolinettos hand-painted? I was wrongly assuming a decal of some type, but upon thought, it might be harder to imagine an applique surviving so long. 

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I dunno... the hardware, headstock shape and the post bridge string hold-downer says Italian/Demeglio style to me. Side shot looks like stained birch by the grain or slab maple stained, tho I am no expert on wood.

----------


## trebleclef528

> Walnut, I would think. #May well be UK-made -- reminds me a bit of the "Neapolitan College" mandolinettos which I think are also UK-made. #Nice enough, but I find the bridge position jarring. #Too far back aesthetically, and on top of the painting. #I don't think that's a setup issue, either: the bridge seems roughly where it should be judging from the distance to the 12th fret.
> 
> Martin


[QUOTE]
I think I agree with you Martin, that this is possibly UK made and as you know the "Neapolitain College of Music" mandolinettos also had many of the DeMeglio features including the same shape of head, scratchplate and the wooden string supressor/downholder, all the info I have indicates that the Neapolitain College mandolinettos were made in the UK (although appartently there was no such institution as the Neaploitain College of Music).

----------


## Jim Garber

Ian:
I am curious what specific info you have that leads you to say that these were made in the UK? 

I have never seen these Neapolitan College ones in person. I don't have any celar pics of labels but they evidently say:



> 'The 'NEAPOLITAN College of Music'.
> 'By His Majesty's Royal Letters Patent.
> Patent No 2272.


I have yet to find any site that catalogs British patent numbers either so am curious what the patent was for.

----------


## brunello97

Here is the best shot I have of the NC label (but it is admittedly not very good.) 
I'll admit I kind of like the looks of these and the headstock/tuner arrangement is reminiscent of our current FBON.

(Hmm. In wrestling with this in photoshop, it appears the label was set in upside down.)

MIck

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting... similar to these are the one pictured below. Both this one and the NCM examples seem to have tuners marked D.R.G.M the NCM one I have has a number 18666 and the odd-shaped one has a number 86662. Obvious (I think) that these were made in the same factory/workshop?

I did a brief search and it seems that DRGM indicates a German patent. It might only refer to the tuners, tho.

----------


## Jim Garber

Actually, I checked further and I have another example of the last posting but this one was ID'ed as Viennese College of Music.

----------


## trebleclef528

> Ian:
> I am curious what specific info you have that leads you to say that these were made in the UK? 
> 
> I have never seen these Neapolitan College ones in person. I don't have any celar pics of labels but they evidently say:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[QUOTE]

Well I have no actual evidence that they were made in the UK, other than "circumstantial info". The patent No 2272 is recorded at the British library in 1902 (Mandolin) #but as yet i have not had time to find out who actually applied for the patent, below is an extract of the files (which includes a few other interesting patents (the mandolin is near the end of the list. I will at some stage find out who applied for the patent. 

Other factors are that they seem to appear almost entirely in th UK, usually from around the London Area and one of our more senior members of the British BMG federation remembers many of these in the London area where he lived and also many of the Viennese College of Music (the unusual shaped one you refer to) which he suspected were made by the same manufacturer (These were obviously brand names as neither the Neapoiltan nor the Viennese Colleges of music existed in the UK,or at least i have found no evidence of their existance. It would appear that (as you mention) the tuners were imported from Germany.

I've had a few of these instruments, usually very nice sounding. Of course it is always a possibility that they were made by the "De Meglio School" on order and imported to the UK... but I think De meglio was kind of "paranoid" about copyright and I would have expected to see something on the label... but as you know, despite his best efforts to secure his design, many other builders copied the De meglio features.

Hope this helps a bit.

. WHITWORTH & CO. MANCHESTER PATENT NO. 2 1842 
[GB 8705 [1842], machine for cutting and shaping metals] 

By Royal Letter of Patent (2) 
Maguire & Son 10 Dawson St Dublin
[GB 1701 [1873], water filter] 

H & S PATENT No871 MARCH 10TH 1874 HALIFAX CLIMAX BOILER
[GB 871 [1874], applied for on the 10 March 1874] 

Patent no. 2196 A.D. 1881
[bedspread] 

A. ASHWELL. PATENTEE WEST DULWICH
[GB 781 [1882], indicating toilet door is engaged] 

A. EMANUEL & SONS LTD. NO. PATENT 11762 AIR TIGHT MANHOLE GEORGE ST. MANCHESTER SQUARE.W.
[GB 11762 [1888]] 

R.G. Briggs of Leicester. 4446 P.A.
[GB 4446 [1889], pump] 

Eli Griffith and Sons of Birmingham 8445
[1894, mast light on ocean-going ships] 94 

"Ventilator" patent egg carrier No. 6494, 1898 

By His Majesty's legal letters of patent 2272
[1902, mandolin] 

KENT'S KNIFE CLEANER LATEST PATENTS 1895-1902 AND 1903;
KENT'S PATENTS 199 HIGH HOLBORN LONDON;
KENT PATENTEE & MANUFACTURER 199 HIGH HOLBORN LONDON
[all three phrases are given on the artefact. Only GB 22305 [1901] and GB 10229 [1903] have been identified as relevant][B]

----------


## Jim Garber

I always thought it odd that there were so few British makers of mandolins esp since there seemed to be plenty of violin makers. I guess it was more sensible to import the mandolins in from Italy and Germany.

----------


## billkilpatrick

looks like something which thrives under tremendous pressure at great depth, in antarctic waters. 

there are some odd shaped vihuela-like, folk instruments in south america which reflect european designs long since abandoned but none - that i can recall - with these inverted, large and small, oddly shaped bouts. ergonomics in mind, looks like a beast to play.

... got to say - it is oooggli.

----------


## brunello97

Hmmm. I rather like the shape and proportions of the VCM model. I risk the wrath of many, no doubt, to suggest that many of the design experiments on the basic flatback-of-note shape seem more pleasing than well intentioned tinkering with the Gibson inspired A and F models seen elsewhere, where radical reinvention of headstock and f-hole shapes often seem quite scary. This one has a balance of line, curve and recurve that I find satisfying, however odd. The jugendstil strikeplate filigree is a welcome change from late victorian garlands and clumsily drawn dragons. But I've put my Puglisi and Christofaro cards on the table before and don't suggest my strange tastes should be emulated.....

It is good to hear that they may have a decent sound.

Mick

----------


## Bob A

"looks like something which thrives under tremendous pressure at great depth, in antarctic waters."

Cthulhuphonic? Doesn't look too tentacular.

----------


## billkilpatrick

> "looks like something which thrives under tremendous pressure at great depth, in antarctic waters."
> 
> Cthulhuphonic? Doesn't look too tentacular.


bob - gotta' say, you've propelled me to every dictionary in the house - none of them of a botanical or marine nature - but so far, no luck ...

----------


## Mike Buesseler

Try this, Bill. I hate to spoil Bob's fun, but I guessed that the "phonic" part was his own addition....

----------


## billkilpatrick

ahhhh ... mandolin in the role of "kracken wakes" or "it came from beneath the sea" - grazie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEm1c-sBRfY

----------


## Bob A

Not spoiled at all, Mike. Sorry for my illiterary allusions, Bill. Just leftovers from my misspent youth.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is a Gelas mandola with a fair number of well-taken high-res pictures. #Hopelessly overpriced, though.

This one is certainly not of note (it's a bog-standard Hora), but it comes with a cute story from the seller.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Nice story, Martin, and one the best re-uses of a mandolin since Tom Waits chose to keep a crow in his 'Washburn jail.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZoePxnewZM

Mick

BTW you are right, great photos of the Gelas, and why one of them is on my wish list.....

----------


## Martin Jonas

This Otwin is exactly the same model as one I used to have, in much the same condition too. They are nice instruments, well-made, with a flat top and an arched two-piece back. I sold mine for about three times what I paid for it.

Martin

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## billkilpatrick

good looking "levin" for sale on ebay u.k.:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1936-Le....9675139

... can't imagine the sound would be wildly different than the two mid-missouri's i own but i wouldn't mind owning one.

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## Martin Jonas

A novel interpretation of the "f-hole" concept here...

Martin

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## Jake Wildwood

Mick: Thanks for the harp guitar link. 

Yeah -- I've been trying to find out more about him myself! The workmanship on the mandolin is amazing... and the construction is interesting, too. It has a giant block for the neck that stretches from one side of the body to the other and down to just about a 1/2" from the soundhole. Regardless of this, though, the tone the instrument produces... pure yum. It's the most bell-like flat-top I've heard. I'm gearing up to record pretty soon for a new album that'll feature it on a few songs, so I'll post some links when I'm through...  :Wink:

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## trebleclef528

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Cigar-Box-Mandolin-with-Pickup-and-Volume-Tone-Control_W0QQitemZ170213024912QQihZ007QQcate
goryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">This</a> probably sounds as flat as it looks... whatever will they think of next!

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## Bill Snyder

Lots of cigar box instruments made and now sold. A lot of the old blues guitarmen hsed cigar box guitars.
Some of them don't sound half bad.

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## trebleclef528

Aaaargh! not a flat back nor bowl back... a very large <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Alte-Mandoline-A-Kramer-1946-Umbau-Seiteninstrument_W0QQitemZ320244260602QQihZ011QQca  tegor
yZ21591QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">soup spoon</a>

----------


## Martin Jonas

This one really is of note: a Howe-Orme mandola. I think I've only ever seen their mandolin-scale ones, so this is quite interesting. Seeing that the seller is an antiques shop in Lansing, MI, one wonders why the previous owner didn't commission it through Elderly.

Martin

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## brunello97

I've been watching the H-O mandola, but in my post April 15 state have been watching other things (my budget) as well. It went for $650 which seems like a steal to me. (As you suggest, Martin, probably even with a commission fee you would think you might fetch a better price through Elderly.)  Such are the vagarities of the auctions.  It does seem that nice instruments still slip through now and then on the ebay. The action appears a bit high from the photos, but the overall condition looked quite good. I wonder if the winner, "banjowalsh", happens by the Cafe.....

Mick

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## Fliss

I'm not sure how noteworthy this is, but you don't see many of these compared to the number of their bowlbacks you see:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mandolin-Suzuki-Co-Ltd-Mandolin-Antique_W0QQitemZ160242240191QQihZ006QQcategoryZ10  179QQssP
ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Suzuki Flatback</a>

Fliss

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## Martin Jonas

This one is at the very least visually striking: a Framus with cat's eye soundholes, plus a round soundhole, and copious mother-of-toiletseat. Strange tuner buttons, too.

Ever odder, although rather less pleasing to the eye, is this beast. Perfectly round body, rather banjoesque, with randomly positioned two f-holes -- _not_ mirror images of each other.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

This <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1947-Levin-347-Mandolin-Rare-Beautiful-L-K_W0QQitemZ320254409348QQihZ011QQcategoryZ10179QQ
ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Levin Model 347</a> is beautiful in its simplicity.

----------


## Bill Snyder

That Levin is a nice looking mandolin.

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## Martin Jonas

Another peculiar soundhole configuration on this German flattop by Hopf. Looks like it may have something to do with a fertility cult...

Martin

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## BlueMountain

I bought the Washburn Style G commented on back in late February. I kicked myself for spending about $250 for it, but it looked like a Martin, and I thought it might sound nice. After a fret leveling and polishing, I put D'Addario J73s on it. 

Turns out that the tone is wonderful, warm, throbbing, sensitive, full, highly resonant. I play it a lot. When my wife and I go somewhere, and she is driving, that's the mandolin I take. When I have to sit in an airport for hours, that's usually the one I take. No, it doesn't sound as good as my L&H Style A, it sounds a lot closer to it in quality than it should, given the difference in price.

----------


## brunello97

Glad to hear the Washburn G turned out to your liking. Wait two or three years and I'll bet you'll be looking back at that $250 as a real bargain.....

As usual, I'll make my plea for updated PHOTOS of the dear thing.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> I bought the Washburn Style G commented on back in late February.


This one?

----------


## Jim Garber

HUH?

----------


## brunello97

How many things do you think were mixed with peanut butter before they settled on jelly.....?

(But don't get me started on the 'bottle-opener' headstock, I'm liable to step on some friendly toes.)

Mick

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## Bill Snyder

Jim,
That isn't a flatback.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Jim,
> That isn't a flatback.


Nor is it a bowlback... maybe it is a floor wax or a breath mint?

----------


## brunello97

Sometimes, the more I look at something the better able I am to figure it out. The longer I look at this one, the more puzzled I become.

BTW I think P&G test marketed the combination floor wax/breath mint Lino-lo-Green a number of years back. #I gather it wasn't a success, though the odd lot of it still turns up on ebay now and then.

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

A couple of curiosities from Ebay UK:

This flatback has some Calace-esque features and a peculiar three-piece back. Interesting wooden case with zebra-stripe lining.

This one also has an interesting case -- in fact the seller seems to consider it more interesting that the mandolin, judging from the prominence in the photos. The mandolin is poorly photographed, but seems a pleasing type of old English flatback.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> The mandolin is poorly photographed, but seems a pleasing type of old English flatback.


That is pleasing looking even in soft-focus, with the exception of the "head-cheese" binding.

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Martin, both of these are worth the gummi hals, particularly the tripartite back.  I like the looks of Italian flatbacks a lot.  My bowlbacks have been squirming around on me a bit of late. Maybe I need to put on a bit of weight. Not that the 'mother of head cheese' crack is going to make me hungry.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

My new mando-rock band... the Mothers of Head Cheese...

----------


## JEStanek

> HUH?


Jim,
This instrument (same photo even) of David Catalfamo's hybrid F4 was shown in the Zoukfest Luthier Exhibit thread here.

Jamie

----------


## brunello97

Here is a Style B Martin on the ebay. #

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=009

While I have the chance to ask has anyone ever A/Bed the A and B models? #What differences do the rosewood back and sides contribute soundwise? #And other sonic #differences, besides the upgraded good looks?

thanks,

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Here's a Martin Style C with ad copy worthy of inclusion in Mike Edgerton's HOF:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....US:1123

Not even bothering to put in fine print:

"...Overall, it's in great shape, but will need some work. #The action is high. It will need a neck set to be playable. #There is also a slight warpage which could be heat treated. A good luthier will have it playing perfect. #Also, there's the beginnings of a hairline crack along the edge of the pickguard just below the soundhole. #Nothing major......Some finish issue on the back. #Not wear. It appears that it may have been laid on something that reacted with it at one time. #A competent luthier could make it go away to where it would never have been noticed."

You can jump in at $999.

Also from PA, this much nicer looking Martin 20 which somehow found its way to Ravenna, Italy. #(Enjoying the mosaics?) #Didn't draw any bids at what is a healthy price. #Pretty example that appears in vg shape.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=001

Does anyone have any experience with these viz the L+H archtops of the same era?

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> Here's a Martin Style C with ad copy worthy of inclusion in Mike Edgerton's HOF:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....US:1123


Martin C's are not too common. Clark McAvoy is a wheeler-dealer in south Jersey but he does know his stuff. According to VG Price Guide a style C in exc would go for $2700-3000, so Clark's is prob a sensible (for him) starting price.

----------


## Bruce Clausen

I've just returned from France where I saw in Nice a very impressive deep-body flatback built in 1929 in Paris by Julian Gomez Ramirez. I've heard of him previously only as a builder of classical guitars in the Madrid tradition. He built the guitar Ida Presti used in the earlier part of her career; after the mid-fifties, Presti and Lagoya used guitars by Robert Bouchet, who had himself learned guitar building from Gomez Ramirez. I would think G. R. can't have built many mandolins (though I won't be shocked if Jim posts photos of several more). This one had a very simple "classic" look, with rosewood body and mahogany neck, inlaid plain tortoise-shell guard, simple tailpiece, and a somewhat complicated rosewood bridge. Pleasant to hold and played very well right up the neck-- last fret was 20, high C, so this wasn't intended as a virtuoso's instrument. Modest look, but with a big full sound in the hands of its owner, a local pro guitarist/mandolinist. Sorry I was not able to get any photos. 

BC

----------


## Jim Garber

The Spanish makers were probably more likely to make bandurrias than mandolins. Was this maker from the Ramirez family or just had the same name. I don't have any pics in my files of anything by this maker.

I did a quick search and it seems that this Ramirez studied with Manuel Ramirez and not with José before moving to Paris. Another source states: "(born 1879 in Madrid, established 1922 in Paris), a student (but not a relative) of José Ramirez."

----------


## brunello97

> Martin C's are not too common. Clark McAvoy is a wheeler-dealer in south Jersey but he does know his stuff. According to VG Price Guide a style C in exc would go for $2700-3000, so Clark's is prob a sensible (for him) starting price.


Uh huh. #

----------


## Martin Jonas

> This one also has an interesting case -- in fact the seller seems to consider it more interesting that the mandolin, judging from the prominence in the photos. The mandolin is poorly photographed, but seems a pleasing type of old English flatback.


This is now being flipped back onto Ebay by the winning bidder here, with much better photos, and a starting bid of twice the original winning bid. It's now described as German, from 1927.

Speaking of German mandolins, how about this one: if it doesn't sound good, just use it as a frying pan. Not sure whether that body is wood or metal, but pretty sure that it's folk art. Is there a resonator inside, or just an "artistic" decision to style the soundhole as a colander? The seller says it weighs 2 to 3 kg, which would suggest some serious mass somewhere.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Martin, those are indeed better photos. #The added clarity #doesn't help me digest Jim's #'head cheese' sobriquet. #(Maybe a use for the skittle model.....)

Rather beat up but still fetching a fair price is this elegant pochette: #

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=007

I've always liked the yellow tortoise materials (real or faux.) #The more in-line oval soundhole gives a nice sense of length. #

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

i heard a pochette once - very shallow .. proprio un "dud." might be lovely to look at but the sound was a tremendous disappointment.

are these the same instruments traditionally favored by venetian gondoliers?

----------


## Jim Garber

One for the record books: Otwin 16 string mandolin. I can't tell if it is a bowlback or a flatback but I assume the latter. I don't know if Otwin even made bowlbacks. Martin?

----------


## Jim Garber

Someone in France got himself and nice quality mandolin by JTL for cheap IMHO. I think people got confused by the reference to balalaika.

I am anxiously awaiting the auction that has that balalaika by Luigi Embergher.

----------


## Martin Jonas

I am speechless...

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Martin... what else would complete your mandolin collection?  You should go for that one!!

I can't quite figure if she is a one-finned mermaid or the neck is her other fin.

----------


## billkilpatrick

wow ... it reminded me of this:

----------


## billkilpatrick

in the classifieds at the moment there's a nice looking/sounding flatback with a molded, fiberglass sound chamber, built by david gill - along with the following address showing more photos and an audio and video sample:

http://www.crossroadswood.com/shop.html

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is an interesting variant called the Mandolet.

I did find the patent by Harry J. Isbell in 1903.

I was trying to get this one but I thought the price was on the high side. BTW the overall construction looks very similar to Stella mandolins of that period.

----------


## brunello97

Interesting description in the patent drawings and text about the use of shaped and perforated 'sound posts' to either end of the bridge.

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

Another interesting flatback, not unlike the "Mandolet" that Jim posted, here. This one is clearly banjo-inspired (and indeed is labelled "banjoline"), but has a wooden body. No soundholes on the soundboard, just some very small ones along the rim. Intriguingly, these look much like those mysterious double holes used by Calace. Based on the brand stamp, this was made in Osijek. The only Osijek I know of is in Croatia, but the stamp also says "Patent CSR", which would indicate Czechoslovakia post-1919 and pre-1938.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Another interesting flatback, not unlike the "Mandolet" that Jim posted, #here. #This one is clearly banjo-inspired (and indeed is labelled "banjoline"), but has a wooden body.


Clearly, no idea is too off-beat for our Vietnamese friends, who offer this variation on the all-wooden mandolin banjo. I'm undecided whether this all-new model is more bizarre than the vintage one in my last post or not. I can't quite figure out what's going on, either: this one has a spruce soundboard (with an actual soundhole, natch), but the body has a much larger diameter than the soundboard, there being some sort of mahogany (?) rim. The tailpiece sits on edge of the soundboard, not on the outer rim. What's going on? Some sort of resonator?

Martin

----------


## Arto

..."for our Vietnamese friends, who offer this variation..."

Strange thing. Would be nice to have a side photo, to understand what the "system" really is about. Reminds me of Vegavox banjos with "high-wall" resonator, but this could be something totally different.

Very nice wood on the resonator, BTW! # Arto

----------


## Martin Jonas

I rather like this mandolinetto on Ebay Germany.  Walnut back, tastefully understated, tiny body, looks to be well-made.

Martin

----------


## billkilpatrick

> I rather like this mandolinetto on Ebay Germany.  Walnut back, tastefully understated, tiny body, looks to be well-made.
> 
> Martin


thanks martin, very nice - 9 days to go and two bids already ... bet it will fetch a high price.  the last vestiges of MAS i have left are centered on one of these mandolinettos.

lovely and unusual fret markers:

----------


## trebleclef528

Now thats what I like... someone who really puts their http://cgi.ebay.com/Mandolin-no-rese...QQcmdZViewItem heart into making an instrument

----------


## Jim Garber

Tho not a flatback, certainly the maker put his heart into this one also. Actually an octave mandola of mine by A. Puccinelli Chicago 1931.

----------


## brunello97

Here is a Leland 'Brilliantone' on the e-bay.  Very similar to my Ditson-branded model, though an obvious upgrade at all levels: binding, mop, and an even prettier RW back.  A healthy asking price, (this one appears to be signed) but they are nice sounding instruments out of Chicago.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Leland-Brilliant...QQcmdZViewItem

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here is a Leland 'Brilliantone' on the e-bay.


According to the seller, this is a piccolo with a 10.5" scale. That and the ornateness might justify the value to a collector. Then again, I doubt too many would pay that. Still it is a sweet-loooking little mandolin.

----------


## brunello97

Pursuant to the recent discussion on ebay prices, etc. this pretty walnut mandolinetto, went for ~88e or ~$125 dollars.    The seller wouldn't ship to the US and I didn't want to bug my in-laws to tranship something I probably couldn't afford anyhow.  Bad call. 

Looks like someone got a nice deal.

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

I rather like the look of this German flatback.  It's fairly modest, but looks to be well-made and in good shape.  For those who are quick to the draw: four hours to go and at only 11.50 Euro.

This, on the other hand, comes under "folk art" -- a violin-shaped mandolin with two soundboards and some unexpected soundholes.  Unlike most violin-shaped mandos one sees, this one only mimicks the outline, but has a flat top and back, not arched.  Rather charming, if crude, drawings branded into the top.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Martin, the flatback looks like it will be a good deal for someone unless it bids up in the half hour.  Interesting to see the two mystery holes migrate over to the bass side of the top.  

Mick

Your 'quick to the draw' reference reminds me of a great Paul Newman line from 'Hombre', I think, when he is about to begin a pistol duel with a visibly scared opponent. "Remember, if you tie me, you're still dead." RIP PN

----------


## billkilpatrick

ahhh ... here we are ...

taken from ebay germany - anthropomorphism:

----------


## man dough nollij

Looks like an angry hedgehog.

----------


## brunello97

I'm not much of a scroll lover in either direction, but this Regal reverse scroll caught my eye. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123

Maybe it is the binding on the scroll, which while may be common is something I haven't seen before.  The overall detailing is fairly nice on this, and the tiny scroll at the end of the fingerboard is weirdly cool.  Too bad the neck sounds sketchy.  A neat little instrument.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Wowee... world auction record for a reverse scroll Regal: (drum roll) $578.65. With a warped neck too. I have to say it was enticing but not at that price.

----------


## billkilpatrick

i used to have MAS ... but i'm cured now.

yep' ... totally.

100% ...

no sweat ...

----------


## brunello97

This Leland flatback went for a nice price (about 3X what I paid for mine-which also features a nice crack in the rw back-but that was an odd deal.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...OIBUAA:US:1123

It is certainly a very nice mandolin.  I didn't know that Larson was involved with the Leland/L+H operation.  Is this just the seller's speculation?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

The seller is longtime vintage dealer Top Shelf Music of upstate New York. Lowell Levinger got it. 

I paid a little less for my Leland but it was advertised as a piccolo and paid considerably more. When I received it I told the seller that it was a regular mandolin and he refunded some of the money.

Mine came with the original bridge (I think) with the insert missing. One of these days I have to make a replacement for that and string it up.

----------


## brunello97

Interesting story about your Leland, Jim.  Mine was advertised as a mandola, and the seller also refunded some $$.  Turned out to be a good deal and a nice instrument. I play it quite regularly. The one-piece rw back is pretty but does have a few cracks that I have to get after. But a Larson-Leland connection?  I guess from the seller and buyer's reps here, one would assume they know what they are talking about.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I think there was a more ornate Leland perhaps posted on this thread. That one could have been made by the Larsons. of course anything is possible but I am not sure about the connection. OTOH the Leland instruments are certainly well made.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here are two ornate Lelands that very well may be made by the Larsons.

----------


## brunello97

Wow, these are very nice, Jim, particularly on the left-where is it from? I do think i like the Leland 'open-book' headstock profile a bit more than the Washburny knob end.

I'm sitting with mine in my lap this evening.  When are you going to get yours set up to go?! I'd love to hear (about) it.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Mick:
That super fancy one was from the MOMI site. You can see the page here.

----------


## brunello97

Here is an interesting bulge-y back mando-cello from a Dieter Egerland, from Markneukirchen. (Town of which was featured on a recent NPR spot.)  Looks like a very nice instrument as the family pedigree might suggest.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123

Do any of our EuroFriends have a line on the Egerlands' work?

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

That's a pretty good price for a mint luthier-made modern mandocello.

Dieter Egerland is the main luthier in the Guriema shop -- you can see the Guriema name on the label in the auction photos.  This is their G90 mandocello, see here.  The Ebay photos look rather nice than those on the Guriema site.  Guriema used to have a price list on their site, but this isn't there anymore, so I can't say how much this would have been new.  The bowlback version (G91) is on sale at Thomann for 1055 Euro.

Martin

----------


## billkilpatrick

100 year-old flat-top with wooden pegs from peru:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-1975-in...mZ120321297545

----------


## trebleclef528

Anyone ever played a pressure cooker before? http://cgi.ebay.de/CUNBUS-Mandolinen...QQcmdZViewItem

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Anyone ever played a pressure cooker before?


No.....  but it made me think of this Spam-dolin that was on eBay several years ago:

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice looking Tieri mandola.

----------


## brunello97

> Nice looking Tieri mandola.


This is the second time 'round for this one recently on the ebay.  No bids at it seems last time at that price.  These are really weird and cool whatever the price.  

The seller suggests the tailpiece is a replacement.  I've seen them with the Waverly cloud versions.  Both of which look pretty off to my eye.  I wonder if a tailpiece like those on an archtop guitar or resonator mando might not fit better with the eccentric circles.  

This period of luthier experimentation was amazing.

Mick

----------


## epicentre

> these appear from time to time and i think they're definitely noteworthy. this is a "capri 52" model mandolin from the levin company in sweden. taken off german ebay, details says it was made in 1951 - in beautiful nick. i put a bid in for it but i suspect it will go for a lot more than i'll be willing to spend:



FWIW:  THAT is beautiful !!

----------


## MANDOLINMYSTER

Regarding the Tieri mandola, a few years back a luthier frind of mine said I got this mandolin you really need to buy, matter a fact its got your name on it(part of my name anyway)...I passed it up at $350.00 with hard case
that was a mistake.

----------


## brunello97

Here is what is clearly a Martin made-for-Ditson.  It went for a healthy price despite the unfortunate neck break (about $3 less than I paid for my intact Martin A last spring--okay that was a nice MC deal, but it suggests the market for Martins remains robust.)  

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=120347528283

These have long been referenced but this is the first one I have seen. I am sure with the proper repair it will be a nice mandolin.  Did Ditson market any of the higher end Martins?

Mick

----------


## Bill Snyder

This Vega "Banjo" is available here. Auction ends today.

----------


## Jim Garber

People still know what this mandolin is. Bidding is up over $400 already.

----------


## Martin Jonas

This banjo-inspired flatback is quite cute.  Pretty small body, too, it would seem.  Maybe a touch too expensive just for novelty value.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

As they say on eBay: "Make an offer and get it for less."




> This banjo-inspired flatback is quite cute.  Pretty small body, too, it would seem.  Maybe a touch too expensive just for novelty value.
> 
> Martin

----------


## Tracy Ballinger

Here's my new mandolin, just arrived from Germany today.  Has the number 25 stamped on the right side of the headstock but no other distinguishing marks.  Has a couple small cracks between the ribs, but is loud and very warm-sounding.  I'm happy!  Found a matching 12-string here.

----------


## Treble in mind

Here's a Euphonon flatback owned by a Larson instrument collector from whom I purchased a guitar recently.  It's in virtually unplayed conditon.  No other pictures, unfortunately.

----------


## brunello97

That Euphonon looks very nice, particularly the back and neck. I would love to hear or play it.  Beautiful work. I like the cut of their fingerboard extensions.  Any idea where this is? Is it also up for sale?

Mick

----------


## Treble in mind

As I said in my post, it's with a Larson collector, who prefers to remain anonymous.    And no, it's not for sale, thouh I'd bet he'd be happy to trade a nice Larson-made guitar for it.

----------


## Treble in mind

Hello from balmy Kalamazoo.  I've posted a thread called "mystery rosewood flatback" in the "Looking for Infomation" area and have gotten some replies.  It not the same mando I posted a few posts up from here.  I didn't want to double post the message, so I'm asking if some of you mavens would be so kind as to take a look (there are photos) and weigh in.  Thank you.

----------


## billkilpatrick

here's an odd wee flatty, currently on ebay germany (sorry about the photo size):

----------


## delsbrother

Is this a Shutt? Supposedly a WWI photo...



Postcard auction.

----------


## brunello97

This lovely L+H flatback went for a healthy $350+ (which was no doubt a good deal.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=270397767039

This model is very very similar to the Leland models and to my Ditson-labeled. Les freres Larson were responsible for some, if not all of the Leland production, and perhaps the L+H and Ditson labeled models as well.  This one is in better cosmetic shape than mine, but features the same beautiful RW back.  If it sounds as nice as mine-and I bet it does-the new owner (hopefully someone here) has scored a very nice axe.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I posted this in the Builder's section looking for some advice on putting it back together and in the choro section, but seem to be getting little in the way of replies. I might as well post it one more time in this section.

I just got this Brazilian bandolim and it obviously needs some help. I think it is a decently made instrument all solid woods, nice looking and perfectly viable top, Brazilian (I think) rosewood back and sides, nicely-shaped mahogany neck. Obviously the tuner buttons are all gone but otherwise all the parts are there -- a nice traditionally-shaped bone bridge, tailpiece, binding (back binding not shown but I have it) and a zero fret. Neck seems pretty straight as far as I can tell and the frets seem to be in good shape.

The major repair needs to be done on the back. Half of it is split off altogether and the other half still on the instrument has multiple cracks which someone had applied cellophane and other kinds of tape.

Assuming I can actually find the time to repair this myself, I intend to remove the back, rejoin the two halves, glue and cleat all cracks, reglue the back braces and then put the whole thing back together.

First: is there some recommendation for cleaning off the goo from the tape?

Second: the back is pretty warped. Should I be concerned? Should I try to bend it closer to the shape of the instrument or will glue hold it once I clamp it together.

Also, would it be preferable to glue it together with hot hide glue?

I wrote to a Brazilian music site to see if someone is aware who the maker it. It was sold by a music store in Rio that still is in business but evidently has no Internet presence or contact info thru email. If anyone has a clue of where to find more into, let me know.

Thanks in advance for all your help.

----------


## Schlegel

Jim, for the tape, you might try Goo-Gone.  I've seen it used to remove tape glue from the covers of paperback books (small amount and with care) with no ill effect.  essentially, it's a gelled acetic acid.  Wipes off with a slightly damp cloth fine.

----------


## Jim Garber

Check out the price of this Larson-made reverse scroll. One hour to go and almost $2000. Nice and fancy...

----------


## billkilpatrick

... and eccentric - just that little bit.

----------


## Jim Garber

Wow, Stahl went for $2034 -- Greg Boyd must be happy. Hey, maybe my Larson bowlback will be worth more than I paid for it.

----------


## brunello97

I was tracking this one as well, with an even-more-desultory-than-usual ringer bid.  I sure like the looks of these, though.  The added quality of detail and wood sure compensates for the Papa Smurf profiling. I hope someone we know got it so we can hear a bit more about how it sounds.   Jim, your bowlback was a coup.  I'm sure the Larson sig is rapidly gaining momentum.  How does IT sound by the way?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Sounds nice tho the spacing at the nut per course (prob original) is a little on the tight side and the action is on the low side, but very playable and sounds pretty good with the GHS240s. I plan to change the strings and maybe raise the bridge a hair and see about a compensated one. It was a good buy (I think). Whoops should be reporting this on the bowlbacks thread.

----------


## billkilpatrick

currently up for auction on ebay italy - from lecce, puglia:

----------


## Jim Garber

Hey, Bill... how about a link or an item number?

----------


## billkilpatrick

sorry ... lecco in lombardia:

http://annunci.ebay.it/annunci/strum...-lira/10612502

----------


## billkilpatrick

i was bidding on this but chickened out - maker is antoine di mauro, member of the french, guitar making family:



sacrilege, i know - but the "?" and star impressed into the face was a source of wonder.

----------


## Jim Garber

I saw this, Bill. That seller, Golatschi (German for Calace?) always has interesting instruments for sale. This is still reasonable at the moment. Here is the link: Antoine di Mauro mandolin, 1950.

More about di Mauro

----------


## brunello97

This one caught my eye as well, for the Di Mauro name and the curious design details.  There is a mandolin such as the one on ebay at the Di Mauro site:

http://www.di-mauro.fr/Images/musee/mandoline2.jpg

I have a single desultory bid in and don't plan to go any higher.  Right now the price is what one might pay for a mid range Regal (some which can be nice instruments for the money.)  I hope someone from the MC gets it. My hunch is this would be an interesting instrument to check out.  The tattoos on the front are a bit of a drag, no?

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is a strange beasty: A Puglisi flatback, with Embergher-like scratchplate, Calace-like headstock and what looks like an extra-wide flat fretboard.  On Ebay Germany, currently at 42 Euro with a day to go.

Link

Martin

----------


## brunello97

I love the eclectic design abandon that came out of the Puglisi shop.  A lot of misses, a few hits. But I appreciate the bravata, if we can call it that. I have a cant top/carved back Puglisi mandola that I enjoy and the fretboard is wide enough to land a paper airplane on. This one has a bit of a boat back and what looks like a bite taken out of the fretboard. Very curious.  To me, worth a bid or two. Thanks, Martin!

Mick

----------


## trebleclef528

> This one has a bit of a boat back and what looks like a bite taken out of the fretboard. Very curious.  To me, worth a bid or two. Thanks, Martin!
> 
> Mick


Re the "bite out of the fretboard" . I know quite a few amateur players who find that although they love their classical style mandolins, they seem to find that the fretboard extending over the sound hole (what I call "concert style) hampers their playing and they simply "cut off the extension".... Thankfully none of our orchestra members have put their mandolins "to the knife".
Cheers
Ian

----------


## billkilpatrick

interesting looking 2-point from germany:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-Josef-H...item5d2dbd7e33

----------


## brunello97

Very interesting looking. I like the combination of alpine roof point geometry and the Caspar the Ghost scratchplate. A nice composition. Here is a link to short history of the Hoyer guitar company:

http://www.hoyerguitars.com/Hoyer_Guitars/History.html

No sign of a date in the ad. The Hoyer site suggests the family (and business?) were part of those 'ethnically cleansed' out of Czechoslovakia after WWII and resettled in Germany. They made some interesting mandolins over the years from the looks of it. Seems like they are serving the Oi! music population these days.

Mick

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## billkilpatrick

> ... Seems like they are serving the Oi! music population these days. Mick


i'm doing my bit as well

----------


## billkilpatrick

interesting looking beast on french ebay with four - count 'em, 4 - of those mysterious holes in the sound board:

http://cgi.ebay.fr/RARE-MANDOLINE-AN...item4aa9f92a8b

----------


## billkilpatrick

here's another:

http://annonces.ebay.fr/viewad/Mando...1%235023881282

----------


## Graham McDonald

I do like the "Rare mandoline ancienne". That is very cute. It is tempting, but I have to ask myself "Why?"

----------


## Jim Garber

> here's another:
> 
> http://annonces.ebay.fr/viewad/Mando...1%235023881282


What are those white knobs... tone and volume?

----------


## Martin Jonas

This one is a noteworthy flatback, I feel:

Link

Wedge-shaped body, flat soundboard without any openings at all, the only soundholes being on the sides of the mandolin.  I won't even guess how this one might sound, but it seems in decent condition.

I like the label's confident assertion that J. Corso are "importer of the Italian (flat back) mandolines used by all the leading performers", which the seller repeats as gospel.  Methinks perhaps not...

Martin

----------


## brunello97

I saw this in passing, Martin, and I am glad you took the time to post it.  Very curious indeed, particularly J. Corso's specialization in imports.  Seems like he didn't want any confusion on that account.  Looks like some of the things that came out of Antonio Monzino's shop in Milan. One of the the odder mandolins I have seen.

Mick

----------


## antekboodzik

This is no first time I see a taken picture of a flatback mandolin with strange, two holes on the top side of the table. Why is it so? A way to improve the sound?

----------


## brunello97

This Stewart looks like a nice mandolin:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_500wt_1051

and went for a nice price.  This has 'bro Jake written all over it. (Was it you, amigo?)  Stewart mandolins are to me sometimes the hardest to peg.  I can't tell from the low grade photos but this looks a bit like maybe koa to me.  Or else the spruce has darkened considerably.  What do y'all think?  The bridge position looks curious but we are always pondering that here.  Potentially a lot of mandolin for $175. 

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Something I haven't seen before, though fairly rumored: a purported L+H 'Lakeside' bandurria:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Washburn-Bandurr...#ht_500wt_1123

Looks quite nice and fairly solid.  Yikes, did L+H have choice woods at their disposal back then?  This looks straight out of the meat department. Filet mignon.

Mick

----------


## dave17120

Bill, I think you must be Mr Flatback..... just been looking thru this thread, and you are everywhere!!!

----------


## Jim Garber

> Looks quite nice and fairly solid.  Yikes, did L+H have choice woods at their disposal back then?  This looks straight out of the meat department. Filet mignon.


I think I recall this one from quite a few years ago on eBay. Then again, it might have been another one. In any case, I know this seller, too. He might just have something to do with harp guitars.

----------


## billkilpatrick

> Bill, I think you must be Mr Flatback..... just been looking thru this thread, and you are everywhere!!!


... been wandering in fiddle-land for the past few months - where have my callouses gone?

----------


## KristinEliza

I like the 'moustache' bridge!

----------


## Margriet

What about this ?

http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=110708750859

----------


## brunello97

Wow, Margriet, that is SUPER nutty. I had not heard of M. Lombard(l)y before.  And in Bordeaux? The combination of scroll and Portuguese style tuners is very curious. What an interesting mandolin. The French luthiers do have a style of their own. Here are some pictures from the auction site.

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

"Lambardy Headstock" ... hmmm - would that be lombardy headstock? - anyone know when and where these "peacock" tuners first came into being?

----------


## Margriet

> "Lambardy Headstock" ... hmmm - would that be lombardy headstock?


I don't think so, Bill. If you look well the nice (!) label, you can see "Lamblardy", which is a French name. " Lombardy" is refers to the Italian region of the origin of the Lombardian type of mandolins. Their headstock is different as well.

----------


## Tavy

> "Lambardy Headstock" ... hmmm - would that be lombardy headstock? - anyone know when and where these "peacock" tuners first came into being?


Bill, these tuners have a very long history: they're usually credited to English luthier John Preston who's believed to have been active from 1734-1770 building English/Baroque guitars (10 or 12 strings, short scale, open tuning).  Here's an image from Dave Hynds site of a Preston tuning mechanism - all in a line, and the tuners turned via a watch key.



For whatever reason these fell out of favour in Northern Europe (probably cost of manufacture?) in favour of more regular friction pegheads, then mechanical tuners later.  With one exception: in Portugal they continue to make what are in effect English/Baroque guitars right up till the present day - now known as the Portuguese guitarra - a modern Spanish style guitar is known as a Viola in Portuguese I believe  :Wink: 

Here's a modern version in the Lisbon style:



The headstock scroll is very much a traditional Portuguese innovation, the thumbwheel (rather than watchkey) tuners are quite a modern take on the old idea I believe.  BTW the Portuguese also build mandolins in this style, so arguably this one is a "Portuguese Style Mandolin".

One other data point - the watchkey style tuners were revived by Boem around 1900 for use on their Waldzithers - I believe this was a revival and a marketing trick rather than tradition though.  Here they are on my Pluckthum waldzither:

----------


## brunello97

Lamblardy, yes. Sorry for my misspelling of of the name, which seems often spelled "Lamblardie" as well.  Shooting blanks on turning anything up on JL.  It is interesting that the label is numbered, which suggests a fair number of other instruments out there. Dave Hynds is in the general SW area, I wonder if he has something on this.

That is a big chunk of wood that the tuners are nested in. The Portuguese style tuners have always creeped me out a bit, so I appreciate the effort. I can't tell from the photo if that is a joint line on the neck or whether that is where the finish is worn off, it appears to be one continuous piece. 

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

The curvy scroll bit at the end is usually a glued on addition

cheers

graham

----------


## billkilpatrick

> The Portuguese style tuners have always creeped me out a bit


me too - as did the movie "edward scissorhands"

----------


## brunello97

> me too - as did the movie "edward scissorhands"


I hear you, Guillaume.  For me it was the zoo scene in 'Cat People'. Yikes.  I've never used one of these tuners and have often wondered about the amount of grip/leverage required to make them work. I guess you could design a version of them twist with an Allen wrench. As with all things, I am sure they have their devotees.  Hard to know what M. Lamblardy's design does for the functionality but it does keep Nastassja Kinski from being the second thing that comes to mind when I see them.

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

check out the substantial binding on this - photos are un-grabable, by me, at least:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-8-...item415bbd1ba4

----------


## Jim Garber

> check out the substantial binding on this - photos are un-grabable, by me, at least:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-8-...item415bbd1ba4


Looks like tulipwood for the binding. That is nice but the thing looks like it was played by a cat or used as a scratching post.

----------


## billkilpatrick

lol - yes, looks like it's seen the wars - there's a soundboard crack/separation.  what do you think - french, perhaps?

----------


## brunello97

The headstock looks like Catania to me, Bill, but the body shape looks French as you suggest. Pretty wood.  I love the 'PacMan' scratchplate. I like the looks of this and have tossed in a bid. It looks like it will clean up okay, but that center claw mark does look a bit deep.

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

go fer' it mick! - i think the sides, in particular, will spruce up very nicely - auguri!

----------


## billkilpatrick

have you EVER seen anything like this? - sorry, can't "grab" the photos (wrong format):

http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-antico-...item3369fedb6e

----------


## Bruce Clausen

What an awkward looking contraption!  It's a "mandolino antico a doppia cassa", an old mandolin with double box.  Something akin to the Gelas instruments?  I see in an old thread on Minieri mandolins we ran into that expression doppia cassa on a label.  Maybe they were in vogue briefly.

"The instrument has some cleavage..."

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Here's that Minieri thread:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...hlight=minieri

In post #6, Jim showed a label (from a standard bowlback) that included the perplexing phrase "novita in mandole doppia cassa a risonatore".  I thought at the time this must mean that Minieri also made double box mandolas with resonator, but couldn't imagine what such an instrument would be.  Bill's Italian e-bay instrument may be the answer:


Looks to me like the upper soundboard consists of a sandwich with two parallel plates, so a resonator something like the extra layer in a Ceccherini.  The e-bay instrument has no label.

Wonder why these never seem to have caught on.

----------


## billkilpatrick

looks like a horse-shoe crab to me.

----------


## Tavy

> have you EVER seen anything like this? - sorry, can't "grab" the photos (wrong format):
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-antico-...item3369fedb6e


What the heck?????

Silly price for something that's an oddity at best as well!

----------


## Jim Garber

Sort of a reversed Gelas. It also has an Embergher-style headstock. Here is another photo.

the seller has some info (I like the quote, "The instrument has some cleavage"):




> Antico mandolino italiano da collezione (circa 1920), si tratta di uno strumento unico e stravagante, di forma asimmetrica a doppia goccia, con doppio piano armonico dal quale è ricavata una rosetta stilizzata, fori di risonanza laterali, fondo, fasce e manico sono in mogano. Purtroppo è mancante del cartiglio ma credo che sia frutto della sperimentazione di un liutaio catanese.
> Lo strumento presenta qualche scollatura, qualche piccola mancanza, qualche tasto assente ma nel complesso è in buone condizioni e si può considerare di grande valore storico e artistico rappresentando lo sforzo di ricerca, all'apice della popolarità del mandolino nel suo periodo d'oro, di nuove peculiarità acustiche ed estetiche.
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++  +++++++++
> 
> Ancient Italian mandolin (about 1920) for collector, this is a unique and quirky, asymmetrical shape of a double drop, double soundboard that is derived from a stylized rosette, soundholes side, bottom, sides and neck are mahogany. Unfortunately, the label is missing but I think that is the result of work a luthier from Catania.
> The instrument has some cleavage, some small lack some fret missing but overall is in good condition and can be considered of great historical and artistic value representing the research effort, at the height of the popularity of the mandolin in its heyday, characteristics of new acoustic and aesthetic.

----------


## brunello97

I wonder who the builder was?  Seems like such a Puglisi thing to do, refold a Gelas and add the antipodean pickguard. I'd love to have been una mosca sul muro when they were talking this design into fabrication.  I enjoy its general appearance and the lumpy asymmetry which, I hope, over further design time may have resulted in some sexier curves to go with the 'cleavage'.  

Puts me in the mind of Anna Magnani or maybe the architect Carlo Scarpa's work though it probably predates his heyday by about 20 + years.  Even with our debt problems now 'solved' I can't make this kind of contribution to the national balance of payments red ink.  600 euro (Molluschi? Venusmuscheln? What do you guys call that?) is a lot of dinero.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I love the bridge contraption on that thing. It looks like the upper soundboard has teeth that interlock with the base of the bridge. I wonder what the point of it all was. I wonder if there is a patent somewhere.

----------


## brunello97

It is very intense.  The bone/ivory saddle seems to have interlocking teeth with the wooden bridge below it as well. The string/bridge/top seems to be 'traditional' in its orientation viz the Gelas reverse fold. Am I reading that right? 

This reminds me....did we ever hear back again from Martin about his Gelas? I remember him writing in after he got it and some initial reactions. Maybe I missed some further discussion about it? At a fair distance, I find these things very interesting and peculiar. 

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Gelas mandolins have a string-thru bridge as I recall. See below. These designs make me anxious. I dunno...

----------


## brunello97

Yes, it seems like the strings are clamped down over the bridge on the Gelas design. The Magnani (!) above looks to have a more conventional string break angle. The Gelas has the nightmare look of a mandolin that has been stepped on. (The inspiration?) Still, the design ingenuity appeals to me.  That looks like a super clean example in your photo, Jim.

Mick

----------


## Oliver R

New Mark Mawby

----------


## Martin Jonas

> This reminds me....did we ever hear back again from Martin about his Gelas? I remember him writing in after he got it and some initial reactions. Maybe I missed some further discussion about it? At a fair distance, I find these things very interesting and peculiar.


I missed this posting from Mick back in August -- I was away on holiday then.  My Gelas-clone (it's not a true Gelas and there are some differences in the precise design, possibly to get around the terms of the patent) is doing fine but waiting for me to have the time to do some more adjustments to the setup.  When I bought it, the action was way too high for reasons that I have not got to the bottom of --the neck joint and soundboard look just fine with no sign of movement and as the Gelas design is rather counterintuitive when it comes to structural effects of the string tension I'm not sure how the action could have got so high.  Lowering the action is a much bigger job with the fixed Gelas bridge than with a conventional mandolin bridge.  I got the action into the playable range but would need to do some more work to make it comfortable.  

It's a pretty nice mando, though, and as we are trying to recruit more players into our ensemble I am likely to offer it as a learning instrument to any new recruits who need a mandolin that blends in tone with the bowlbacks we play. 

Martin

----------


## Graham McDonald

Skinners have an auction in Boston next week with a Raphael Ciani flatback mandolin on offer. It is a two-point oval hole design, which they suggest is c.1910, but the style doesn't look that old... I would post a pic from the auction site, but it is quite big and I am at work photoshopless

cheers

graham

----------


## Jim Garber

> Skinners have an auction in Boston next week with a Raphael Ciani flatback mandolin on offer. It is a two-point oval hole design, which they suggest is c.1910, but the style doesn't look that old.


Here you go, Graham. That is one strange one. Take a look at that detail of the headstock. That is a stock inlay (I have the same one on another mandolin and have seen it on others) bought from a supplier but it looks like someone cut it and that monogram in from another instrument. The pickguard and its cherubim inlay look right for Ciani but those extra dots on the fretboard might also have been a prior owner's idea of gussying up the look.

----------


## Graham McDonald

It was more the two point body shape and the fact it was a flatback which intrigued me. The shape is suggestive of the D'Angelico carved mandos (from the 30s?) and quite unlike anything else I have seen on pre-war mandolins.

cheers

graham

----------


## billkilpatrick

lovely - $400-600 seems modest.

----------


## brunello97

I agree with Bill: to pick this up for 4C would be a steal.  I love the body profile and pickguard shape. 

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Here are a couple of similar Ciani's. The fancier was on Bernunzio's site.

It seems that auction houses mostly like to make the estimates on the low side to give bidders the illusion that they will get the steal. Then again, this one does have issues, it looks to me.

----------


## billkilpatrick

jim - i take your point about the "gussied-up" additional dots - "troppo"

----------


## billkilpatrick

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Wunderschone-...item2eba5fcc12

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Pretty thing.  The seller sure doesn't give much information.  Apparently someone's attempt at a four-course cittern replica?  (Looks like three strings on the lowest course, then pairs.)  I can't seem to lift any photos.

----------


## billkilpatrick

me neither - don't know why but i'm thinking "made in east-germany"

----------


## Sieffe

Thanks for that! That just explained where the name "Framus" (guitars and banjos) comes from . . . I had a 12 string banjo which weighed a lot . . 

cheers, Sieffe  (New Zealand)



[QUOTE=billkilpatrick;484137]there must be millions of these instruments out there - mostly from germany and points east, i would guess - and i haven't a clue about any of them. 

they're usually described on german ebay as "flachbauch" and feature either a slated back with alternating stripes of light and dark wood or a geometric, kaleidoscopic design. "hopf" is a name i've seen mentioned and "framus" ... but most of them appear to be non-descript and nameless - some of them have the dubious distinction of being made in the german democratic republic.

----------


## Jim Garber

Looks like a romantic version of a Waldzither (single bass string + 8 pairs). In the same vein as those German lute-guitars with the scalloped fretboards.

----------


## brunello97

Pretty cool, Bill. Funky but a bit on the charming side. Are you thinking of bidding?  

I've been collecting images of carved headstocks as my Vinaccia bowlback è stata decapitata. I'm trying to figure out what was originally there and what kind of replacement head I should think of making. (Garibaldi o la mia testa are frontrunners in the caucuses right now.) Maybe I should start a "Headstocks of Note" thread.

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

With the asymmetrical neck and turned thingys (whats the architectural term, Mick?) at the end of the body, it looks like someone's idea of a renaissance cittern mixed with elements of 18th/19th century German zisters.

cheers

Graham

----------


## Jim Garber

> whats the architectural term, Mick?


Gargoyles?

----------


## Bruce Clausen

The classic East German look to me is this Heberlein, that shows up as related to Bill's:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/super-MANDOLI...7#ht_691wt_884

Actually this one looks a lot better than others of this type I've seen in person.  Looks well made, though I wouldn't expect it to sound like much.  Sorry I can't get the photos.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Looks like a romantic version of a Waldzither (single bass string + 8 pairs). In the same vein as those German lute-guitars with the scalloped fretboards.


Actually, I suspect it's Swiss and a form of _Halszither_ (their sub-form of the Waldzither).  Check out the instrument shown on the cover of this book on the history of the Halszither.  They have nine strings just like the waldzither, but typically with friction tuners rather than geared ones (or clock-key ones), and carved headstocks.  Most modern ones have a guitar-shaped body, but mandolin-shaped bodies exist, too.

This one looks in pretty shape as well, although the question with all of these has to be how much of the effort went into the tone and how much into the woodcarving for thos enice decorations.

You can buy a new one much like this (though plainer) for 399 Euro at Folkfriends: Link

Note that while the Folkfriends instrument has nine strings, it has only _four_ courses: it's tuned aa ggg d'd' e'e'.  The Swiss halszither has nine string in five courses, tuned GG dd gg bb d'd'.

Martin

----------


## Graham McDonald

> Gargoyles?


On reflection I think they may be called pilasters, though I may be entirely wrong  :Smile: 

Is that a book on Halzithers, Martin?

graham

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Is that a book on Halzithers, Martin?


Yes, it is.  I don't own it, though, so I can't vouch for it.  The title translates as "The history of the Halszither in Switzerland in teh context of European developments, Volume 1", and it is available from here: Link.  55 pages, and described as "magnificently illustrated", suggesting that it is mainly a volume of instrument photos.  Volume 2, incidentally, is about the Krienser Halszither, which is the guitar-shaped version.

Here is a luthier demonstrating a newly-built Halszither, and here is an old Swiss dance tune played on a historical 1845 instrument (with watch-key tuners, not frictions tuners).

Martin

----------


## billkilpatrick

thanks martin - "zither" is one of those words which sound like the thing they denote - delicate, metallic sound, me thinks.

mick - not that it matters, but i'm not going to bid on it.

jim - how is that you can lift photos while bruce and i can't? ... did you read the manual or something?

----------


## Bruce Clausen

An ad appeared today on the Cafe for a flatback made by Claudio Lazcano Del Castillo of Venezuela.  No photo in the ad (so far) but the instrument can be seen here:

http://www.leboncoin.fr/instruments_.../240996485.htm

From the maker's site it looks like he builds a wide range of instruments, including historic replica guitars and vihuelas.  Anyone know this builder?

----------


## Tavy

Here's an interesting 16-stringer on ebay UK.  Can't imagine how you'd play the thing, but it's interesting  :Wink:

----------


## billkilpatrick

... tuning it must be a nightmare - made in portugal but it looks macedonian to me

----------


## Pete Summers

That peg head reminds me of a centipede. Or sixteenipede at least.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is another 16-stringer from Tony Bingham's shop.

----------


## billkilpatrick

here's an oddity - hopefully jim (or someone) can lift the photos from ebay.it:

http://www.ebay.it/itm/Mandolino-ant...item3cc5873c86

----------


## Jim Garber

Here you go. This resembles something we have seen in the past but it is late for me. Maybe someone else can guess.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Reminds me vaguely of that Monzino mandocello/liuto that the Andrini brothers used to play and that has popped up on Ebay a couple of times: no soundhole in the top and f-holes in the sides.  However, the bridge assembly with its extreme version of the De Meglio string downholder and the clumsy peghead with harp or zither-style tuning pegs that need a tuning key are very much of its own.  Interesting, but possibly not desirable.

Martin

----------


## billkilpatrick

agreed - that peg box looks like a killer.  all-in-all it reminds me of a banjo with a wooden face.

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks, Martin. I was wracking my brains trying to remember which one it was.

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice upper level Regal flattop on eBay.

----------


## billkilpatrick

wooo ...

speaks of brilliantine and spats and white-tie suppers

----------


## brunello97

That may be about the nicest one of those I have seen.  

Mick

----------


## Tavy

That regal is just peachy... beautiful!

----------


## lucho

spanish mandolins usually have a metal brass rim on top of the bridge and may be canted or just flat top instruments.  I do have two of them, one rosewood back made by Miguel Angel  and another older unidentified canted top mando that maybe some of you may help me to identify.... both of them sound wonderful....bright and open... with a strange hearted peghead designany help is appreciated...

----------


## Tavy

Here's an interesting flatback on eBay UK - check out the tailpiece and the crazy headstock stringing (could you figure out which string goes to which tuner when tuning up in a dark bar jam??)

----------


## billkilpatrick

that is interesting.  i don't see the point of the stringing pattern - looks nice and tidy but wouldn't it create needless stress on the nut and saddle?

----------


## brunello97

John Dallas's work is nothing if not eclectic.  This looks very well crafted, however odd.  I like the shape of his mandolins and choice of woods as well as the pick guard configurations.  

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I think the main prize for eccentricity should be given to Frederick Winslow for his innovative way of intonating a fretting instrument. I agree that the criss-crossing is truly odd and inconvenient and i am not sure what it actually does to help the problem. I imagine that the bridge and nut compensation would do something but the amount of work entailed esp in the nut would be ridiculous. Otherwise, the Dallas instrument resembles other ones I have seen and is nothing too out-of-the-ordinary.  Very interesting tho and nice that the seller linked to the patent which Winslow received in US and the UK.

----------


## brunello97

IIRC, Paul H has talked about compensation at the nut somewhere in a discussion here.  I've never tried to mess with that but it seems interesting.  

I read John's post while typically tra veglia e sonno and had it all confused with Frederic Remington and Winslow Homer. Nice bit of work on the bridge, I agree.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Don't know where to put this, but since it is a flatback "mandocello" this seems a good enough place:

Flatback Mandocello

Looks to be in pretty rough shape, but might make an interesting project.  The price is reasonable with about 7 hours to go.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting one, Mick. I see there is interest abroad by one of our Italian friends: "hello how much is shipping cost to italy? Thnak you. Best regards Marco"

This reminds me of a similar octave-tuned mandola with a shape like this. I can't recall the maker tho there was similar curvy line ornamentation on the ribs. Actually, I would almost term this a boatback, possibly made by one of the Neapolitan shops.

----------


## billkilpatrick

... i made the same mistake - i was thinking "wow! frederick remington was into mandolins?!"

----------


## Jim Garber

I was thinking of Winslow Remington... whoever he was...  :Smile:

----------


## Graham McDonald

There is an interesting crudity about it which is appealing and maybe an amateur builder. I think the body might be beech rather than maple. It does seem optimistic to tune a 22" scale instrument to a 'cello tuning.

And if you scroll down to the bottom of the page to the 'what other people are watching' bit. There is a three different mother of toilet seat covered smurf head regal for 85 bucks. I am very tempted, but the quoted postage across the Pacific is almost as much as the guy wants for it. Ah well.

g

----------


## brunello97

> This reminds me of a similar octave-tuned mandola with a shape like this. I can't recall the maker tho there was similar curvy line ornamentation on the ribs. Actually, I would almost term this a boatback, possibly made by one of the Neapolitan shops.


Monzino?  Luigi Mozzani also made some boat back mandolins with a curve skirt piece.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Well, talk about a weird coincidence.  

While looking for boat back examples in my files, I turned this up, which certainly looks much like the John Dallas example that John recently posted but with a segmented back.  Also a similar looking Winslow bridge and criss crossed strings.

Mick

----------


## Eugene

Unauthorized!  I might go so far as to proclaim that to be a five-rib-or-so bowlback.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Monzino?  Luigi Mozzani also made some boat back mandolins with a curve skirt piece.


The one I was thinking of was a Monzino. it could very well be that. The price was very reasonable. I actually thought of bidding in the low $300s but thought better... what do I need it for, esp something that needs quite a bit of work.

The middle photo is the eBay mandocello (as Graham noted, prob more like a octave tuned mandola)., The other two photos are of a Monzino mandoliola (what we would call a mandola), complete with scroll and that side ornamenation.

Maybe the eBay one is not a Monzino but it sure is a copy.

----------


## brunello97

Here is an interesting sale on the ebay:

Two Point and Mold

I couldn't guess how authentic the formwork/mold might be from the maker (are these Regals?)  Note the considerable amount of top bracing and round dowel neck joint.

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

Can't see why the mould wouldn't be authentic. Why would anyone would go to the effort of making something like that otherwise :Smile:  Interesting top bracing, but with a flat-top it would offset any sinkage possibilities. From a production point of view the big neck block saves having to bend small curved bits from the point to the neck. The Octophones used a similar method and (I think) the round dowel neck attachment as well. 

g




> Here is an interesting sale on the ebay:
> 
> Two Point and Mold
> 
> I couldn't guess how authentic the formwork/mold might be from the maker (are these Regals?)  Note the considerable amount of top bracing and round dowel neck joint.
> 
> Mick

----------


## brunello97

Can't see why the mould wouldn't be authentic. Why would anyone would go to the effort of making something like that otherwise :Smile:  

You should see the kind of things laying around my shop, repair jigs, etc.  :Wink:  Interesting pair of things to have survived together.

Interesting top bracing, but with a flat-top it would offset any sinkage possibilities.

Nonetheless, so many of these I have seen have sunken tops. (Including my own) The braces look carefully located and shaped.

From a production point of view the big neck block saves having to bend small curved bits from the point to the neck. The Octophones used a similar method and (I think) the round dowel neck attachment as well. 

I think you are right about that.  I heard that somewhere around here.

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

Longevity often  depends on how well the actual gluing was done, the fit (or lack of it) of the parts. Those three big transverse braces 'should' hold up, but there are rotational (from the neck) and compressional (from the tailpiece) forces at work which can undo good intentions.

g

----------


## brunello97

I haven't seen many Italian 12 string mandolins, but here is an interesting one with a label from Savona (HT of our friend Carlo)

Invernizzi & Devalle 12 string flatback

Interesting neck joint detail.  The side profiling reminds me of some Monzino flat backs I have seen.  Not sure if I & D are the makers or just a shop. The Milano/Savona connection would make a certain sense. Maybe Carlo would know?  The portici there on via Paleocapa look quite exotic.

If I were looking for a 12 string this might be tempting. 80£ shipping to the US will probably keep my bids on this quite low.  :Wink: 

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Mick: From a quick Google search thru a few search results pages, I believe you are on the right track. I think Invernizzi e Devalle are music publishers who sell retail. I agree that there are characteristics of this mandolin  that resemble those of Monzino, esp the decorative carved line on the sides and the shape of the body.

----------


## Tavy

Here's an interesting Perretti flatback which has clearly copied all the latest ideas they could lay their hands on (short of carving the tops that is):

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here's an interesting Perretti flatback which has clearly copied all the latest ideas they could lay their hands on (short of carving the tops that is):


Sort of Romanesque flatback. When and where was this made?

----------


## brunello97

Very interesting mandolin, John, thanks for posting.  Certainly, 'deep dish' as well.  Is this something you've acquired or is it in for repair?  Perretti was out of Napoli, right? (Not that that necessarily means this was actually made there.)  It doesn't share the micro narrow Romanesque nut width.  

I do have a Puglisi mandola with a carved maple BACK, which I still think is pretty weird.  If only it had a slotted headstock, scroll-y scratch plate and canted fretboard…

Mick

----------


## Tavy

> Sort of Romanesque flatback. When and where was this made?


Apologies, just got back from holiday yesterday and posted in a hurry.... it's one I spotted on eBay UK, the seller has a good photo of the label, but there's no date, just the "established 1840".  And yes, Napoli.

----------


## brunello97

I like it, John.  It looks very well made and in great condition. I have a number of Perrettis in my files, including a flatback--not as nice as this--all with a similar label and a few with this type of tailpiece, though not an exact match. No idea on the dating but all these look of the 'era' rather than obviously postwar.  Anyhow, it may be iconoclastic, but whose to say the flatback is a compromise?  I've got a some great sounding flatback Lelands and my Martin sounds like wedding bells.  

I hope we hear more about this one.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Am I missing something here?  How did this price take off like it did?  Nice enough Chicago flatback but is somebody thinking this is a Larson mandolin? (The binding is a bit out of the ordinary, and the TP nice but not much else suggests LarBros--the back wood is tres ordinaire.)  

Check the bid history.  Was there some shill bidding going on?

Expensive Flatback

Mike, Jim, Jake: what do y'all think?

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

could be a "gotta' have" acquisition - but it's a nice looking mandolin.

----------


## Tavy

> Am I missing something here?  How did this price take off like it did?  Nice enough Chicago flatback but is somebody thinking this is a Larson mandolin? (The binding is a bit out of the ordinary, and the TP nice but not much else suggests LarBros--the back wood is tres ordinaire.)  
> 
> Check the bid history.  Was there some shill bidding going on?
> 
> Expensive Flatback
> 
> Mike, Jim, Jake: what do y'all think?
> 
> Mick


Not sure, does look expensive for a no-name flatback, although it also looks to be a nice instrument.  The correct URL is here BTW.

I looked through the bid history of a vintage Gibson guitar that seller has up for sale, and it shows the same pattern of a zero-history bidder upping the bids in small increments.  I guess ultimately there's no way to tell whether it's shill bidding or not...

----------


## Jim Garber

Supertone. Here are a few more...

----------


## brunello97

"Super" price for a SuperT. Yet as Bill and John suggest they are nice mandolins. 

Something smelt a little fishy with that auction.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Another Super price for a 20s US flat back.  This time a Sammo with some very pretty rosewood. Clearly, someone besides Jake and I have an appreciation for these.  This features the one piece back with extension over the neck heel, which has been debated here as a possible LarBro feature. (Not to reopen that kettle of fish.) Who knows if that drove the bidding. This seems pretty clean and a period case as well.

Sammo Flatback

From my experience, these spruce/rosewood mandolins are very nice.  Prices seem to be catching up with them. 

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

ain't she sweet ...

----------


## Graham McDonald

> This features the one piece back with extension over the neck heel, which has been debated here as a possible LarBro feature.


Two piece back and not even particularly well book-matched!

g

----------


## brunello97

> Two piece back and not even particularly well book-matched!
> 
> g


Sorry, Graham, my bad. I knew that, but was fixated on the neck heel 'covering' by the back and flubbed my description. That detail seems to be the curious point of interest on these separating the more ubiquitous versions from some of the more special ones (at least special looking ones.)

A one piece rosewood back is a challenge.  I have had a few which were inevitably cracked. One of the Leland "Brilliantone" mandolins I have has a rw back still intact.  It does have a brilliant tone.   

A double edged sword with prices seeming to rise for these.  Glad to see them getting their due, but the bargain days may be over. I guess with Martin As creeping up into the $6-700+ range, these were bound to follow. They may lack the sweetness of Martins, but comped with the mahogany back As they are a lot punchier.  More comparable to the rw Martin Bs I've played (albeit without the sweetness.)  Still one of the best mando-values out there.  Or they used to be….

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

I think it would make sense from a production standpoint. The neck gets glued on to the sides or side/soundboard assembly and then gets trimmed down flush with the bottom edge and the back gets glued on which would help offset any tendency of the neck to rotate. It would have been fascinating to have seen how those factories worked a century back.

g

----------


## brunello97

Maybe, but it is anything but standard practice, though, from this era of US flat backs, Graham.  L+H and Regal typically didn't use the detail. Don't know about Harmony products, but I still haven't got my head and eyes clear on them.  Martin flatbacks and Gibson (Kalamazoos) did not.  Not sure about Vega.  Weymann used it on at least some of their Mandolutes.  My Lelands have the detail which may contribute to their LarBro mystique (Keef and Robert Harman think they are Larson made.  Jim thinks Vega.  I'm undecided.)

I agree...seeing factory photos (or even luthiers' shops) from that era (or this era) is really fascinating to me.

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

Depends on how they were being built. A dovetail or tenon fitted neck is going to be easier to fit on fully assembled body and the overlapping back isn't going to work. Making them that way would I think be easier in a production environment with standardised parts. If the sides are glued directly to an extension of the neck, in the Italian style of mandolin building, or for that matter the Spanish school of guitar making, the back being glued to the neck itself becomes part of the unified structure of the instrument as one. That type of methodology might be more relevant in a small shop such as LarBro (LarBro!!?) Would be interesting to have a look inside that Sammo or another mandolin with the same feature and see if there is a discrete neck block.

Have I just contradicted myself entirely from my previous post?  :Grin: 

g

----------


## brunello97

Good question, Graham.  I haven't seen many US mandolins with integral neck blocks, certainly not a flat back. Yet.  But as I was reading your post, I turned around in my chair and there (still waiting for its new top) is a US made bowl back mandola I have with, sure enough, an integral neck block.  It has no label, but the neck/head rear transition looks very much like the Vega detail at this location. Nothing else, though, does.  Certainly, once I start thinking one thing another example shows up with something else.  That's part of what makes these so interesting to me.

The only (non Martin/Gibson) US flat backs I have now are the Lelands and their Ditson cousin. I'll get a light in there and double check.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Here's a real beauty and an ultimate in the world of flattop mandolins: Martin Style E.

I would think that the seller should take some better and clearer photos if he wants to get top dollar for this one.

Wow. I thought $5k was a lot for one of these. Artisan Guitars wants $7k for one previously belonging to Norman Blake.

I guess that same mandolin is on eBay as well: Artisan Martin E

----------


## brunello97

Jim, I had to rub my eyes when I saw these on the ebay.  Two Es on consecutive pages. Not sure what I think about bling-ed out Martins.  Kind of gilding the lily a bit in my eye, but I've never seen one higher than a C in person.  I do have a thing for Martin mandolins.

Whenever I see those white bridges I close my eyes and pretend that they aren't ivory. Nothing rational (or consistent) in my selected application of morals. 

Mick

----------


## Eugene

The C are the rarest of that clan.  I don't believe I've seen a C in person.

----------


## brunello97

A fellow here in town that I played with from time to time a few years back had one, Eug.  It had the bound fretboard so I was assuming a C.  Maybe it was a D...

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

An interesting flatback coming up for auction tomorrow in Melbourne (Australia) it is Item 95 on this catalog for an auction conducted through Leski Auctions
It is a 10 string (3-3-2-2) flatback that looks like a deMeglio, but the body is wider and it has an aluminium adjustable bridge that I have seen on Catanian mandolins. I spoke to the seller, who admits he doesn't know much about it, but I suggested the 1880s date was a decade or two too early. Still, rather cute.

cheers

graham

----------


## billkilpatrick

flat and definitely note worthy ...

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/mandoline-Ita...item4170d5291e

----------


## brunello97

Very notable, Bill. The "tension" between the scroll and the scratch plate would have made Heinrich Wölfflin happy. I like the applied decals.

I have another Consoli Carmelo in my files, also curious and flatback but the exuberance pales in comparison. Seeing these gives me a clue as to the possible identity of the odd Sicilian bulgeyboat back I bought earlier in the year. 

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

"exuberance" ... yes indeed.  thing is ... i kind of want it ...

----------


## brunello97

I'll bet it sounds pretty good, Bill.  Notice wear on neck.  It has been played.

I think you deserve to indulge thyself.....

There is a Consoli Carmelo guitar here at this site:

Consoli Carmelo

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Here's a modest but pretty German flatback, which appears to be a large version of a pocket mandolin.  Called a Ligyrophon by the maker Georg Drexel. 1922.  A desultory search for GD turned up a violin dated 1902.  Anyone know anything about Herr Drexel?  Was he a builder or jobber (or both)? 

Searching for Ligyrophon turned up some guitars by Drexel:

Ligyraphon

Kind of a charming scratchplate.  The adjustable bridge doesn't appear original.

Mick

----------

billkilpatrick

----------


## billkilpatrick

that's me! ...

http://phobias.about.com/od/phobiasl...oud-Noises.htm

----------


## brunello97

My souvenir from Hawaii.  Looks like some kind of custom mandolinetto the POTUS is playing.  

It opens beer bottles, too, btw.

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

n-v ...

----------


## Jim Garber

All this talk on one of the other threads about mandocelli... I was just wondering if anyone has played *Dammann's flatback instruments*. he even makes a sort of liuto.

----------


## bratsche

Anybody else see this in the Classifieds?  Looks gorgeous! (NFI)

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/70147

bratsche

----------


## billkilpatrick

[QUOTE=bratsche;1213973]Anybody else see this in the Classifieds?  Looks gorgeous! (NFI)

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/70147

bratsche

what a sweetie! - looks like big bucks, though .....

----------


## Bob Clark

> Anybody else see this in the Classifieds?  Looks gorgeous! (NFI)


I saw it as well and it sure made my heart beat a little faster.  What a gorgeous mandolin!  This one is very much to my taste.  I sure would love to have a chance to give it a try. I don't know if I'd me more inclined to play it or just stare at it.  It's got to be so far outside my price range that it's just a pipe dream anyway.  Still, it's a source of pleasure just to know that such a thing of beauty exists. I think it will make someone very happy!

Best wishes,

Bob

----------


## brunello97

Okay, ragazzi, I don't want to come across as an Eeyore here, but I'm not exactly digging it.  Maybe it is just the shock after seeing 75+ years of the basic, okay classic, Martin A mandolin with its super clean, almost Shaker design aesthetic.  I sat with mine for a good spell after reading the NYTimes article on the company this morning.  Then this popped up. The Koa is really nice--the back, particularly, but it all may be a bit too rich for me. Maybe I need to let it sink in for a couple days.

Bill might be rolling his eyes after hearing me go on about how much I enjoy (most of) the Catanese extravagance with Sicilian bowlbacks. To each, their own.  Anyhow, I do kind of wish the CFM company might get it back.  Would be pretty nice to have accessible and on display. Plenty of playable Martins out there, and that bling isn't going to make it sound any better.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I don't know why Martin would call it a 45-AK. It is a style E in Koa. I don't think that Martin made one like that in the old days. Here is a regular *1925 style E* which was the top of the line for the flattop mandolins back then.

Frankly, I would rather have a vintage style E than a 1983 mandolin, however fancy.

----------


## brunello97

Kind of a curious hybrid with the headstock more reminiscent of the 2-15 series.

Spruce top + rosewood back = very nice sound.  I've only played one of the koa Martins.  I wonder what other folks' take on the sound might be comped to the mahogany or rw.

I'm unlikely to grow into appreciating the commemorative text scratchplate on the hundert und funfzig Jahrestag model. I'll back out and let others enjoy it as they please.

Mick

----------


## bratsche

Well I've never played a koa anything, so I have no idea of the sound.  I was mainly posting it as a "Flatback of note" because of its uniqueness...  and I think it's very attractive looking.  I have had the good fortune to have been able to play a Style E once upon a time, and it played and sounded wonderful.  Probably not a whole lot different from a Style B with the lights turned out, but since I could never afford either, I'll just dream.   :Smile: 

bratsche

----------


## Jim Garber

This *1922 Martin Style B* seems pretty reasonably priced, only a few hundred more than a Style A. Well worth it for Brazilian rosewood.

----------


## Rob Norton

> Kind of a curious hybrid with the headstock more reminiscent of the 2-15 series.
> 
> Spruce top + rosewood back = very nice sound.  I've only played one of the koa Martins.  I wonder what other folks' take on the sound might be comped to the mahogany or rw.
> 
> I'm unlikely to grow into appreciating the commemorative text scratchplate on the hundert und funfzig Jahrestag model. I'll back out and let others enjoy it as they please.
> 
> Mick


I've owned a bunch of different Martin flatbacks over the years, including several As, a couple of Bs, a couple of Cs, and one E. They all sounded different to me, including the As.  The spruce/mahogany As tended to be crisper/brasher, the spruce/rosewood Bs and Cs more complex.  It's all so subjective that it may not be helpful.  

The AK I had was from 1925, and liked it a lot.  It sounded really fine -- I would describe the difference as a little "drier" sound than the spruce-topped ones, with a little more "pop" to the notes. The tops on these are koa as well, and I bet that's the big difference. 

The only Martin I have now is a "Bitting Special" from 1916 with a spruce top and maple back and sides (and the narrower, older body).  It's a fantastic, lively sounding little beast -- and the loudest of any of the ones I've played.

(The E that I owned was from the early 30s, and had a lovely shaded sunburst top, and a killer rosewood back.  It was beautiful, but sound-wise, alas, it was kind of a dog....)

If I ever get another Martin mando, it's going to be one of the koa ones.  I almost bought a BK a couple of years ago. Still kicking myself.

----------


## brunello97

> This *1922 Martin Style B* seems pretty reasonably priced, only a few hundred more than a Style A. Well worth it for Brazilian rosewood.


Thanks, Rob, that's a helpful summary. I wonder what was up with your E?  The spruce / maple mix sounds good.  Never seen that on another flatback if I recall.  (I have a _carved_ maple back, canted spruce top Italian mandola--but that is a strange piece in its own right.)

Pretty rosewood back on the Martin B, Jim.

Mick

----------


## Rob Norton

> Thanks, Rob, that's a helpful summary. I wonder what was up with your E?  The spruce / maple mix sounds good.  Never seen that on another flatback if I recall.  (I have a _carved_ maple back, canted spruce top Italian mandola--but that is a strange piece in its own right.)
> 
> Pretty rosewood back on the Martin B, Jim.
> 
> Mick


Mick, 
you're very welcome.  The Model E, well -- it may have just been me.  It may have had exactly the sound someone else was looking for.  There was a bit of a story to it -- the experts who looked at it thought the top had been off, early on, and that it might have been refinished by Martin with the shaded top.  (The top was unmistakably a Martin sunburst -- that very subtle, dark-brown to light-brown they were doing around 1932....)  At the time, 20 years ago, I had been thinking of collecting one of each model of the flatbacks, but I lost the bug.  In the meantime, I had a fair chunk of money in that E, and several other Martin flatbacks that had cost very little, and sounded, to me, much better.

The Bitting Special is one of those weird little backwaters of Martin mando history, and it seems they were the only ones Martin made with maple backs and sides.  They were made for a music teacher in Bethlehem, PA, according to the Longworth book, and "about 40" were produced.  There's a write up on Mandolin Brothers' website, with a photo. 
http://mandoweb.com/Instruments/Mart...olin-1917/1866
That one looks just like mine and has the next serial number in sequence.  The necks of these are quite slim, and interestingly, both the one they were selling and the one I have had neck-warp issues (Mine had a bit of a twist to it).  Mamie Minch at Retrofret fixed up mine very nicely a couple of years ago. 
Best,
Rob

----------


## Rob Norton

And here'a Bitting Special currently for sale at a shop in New Hampshire that looks like it's in great shape (NFI).
http://www.gbase.com/gear/martin-bit...7-natural-wood

----------


## billkilpatrick

mick - with you 99.9% on that "super clean, shaker design aesthetic" but that rococoesque 0.01% can be irresistible at times.

weren't these made for martin by a swedish company ... levin?

----------


## brunello97

> ....... but that rococoesque 0.01% can be irresistible at times.


I know that's right, Bill.  :Smile: 

Pretty certain that Martin made their mandolins in PA.  There was some kind of relationship with Levin.  Some Levin models have that 'Shaker-esque' look that I associate with Martin. They look pretty good.  I've never played one or even seen one in person.  Jim has one if I'm not mistaken.  Can't recall hearing any feedback on how they sound.  You'd think they have access to some nice wood up there.....

Rob, that maple back Martin does look _really_ nice.  

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Goya was the Levin line that Martin was involved with but I think they just imported them as a lower end line and I think that was much later than the 1920s.

Koa is a wonderful wood -- I love it for guitar backs and sides but would prob prefer a spruce top. Koa sounds in tone sort of a midway between rosewood and mahogany at least on guitars. AFAIK Martin never made any instruments until the 1980s with koa back and sides and spruce tops and that includes mandolins, ukuleles as well as guitars. I believe that all the koa guitars were made to be played Hawaiian style. I guess the AK followed that pattern of all koa.

----------


## Tavy

Dr Frankensteins very own flatback on eBay UK, check out the tailpiece on this baby:



Don't all bid at once now... !

----------


## David Newton

I'm flogging this one everywhere, it really is a nice mandolin.

----------


## Jim Garber

That is a real beauty, David! What are the back and sides?

Whoops! I found out *here*:




> Red Spruce top, Texas Black Walnut back& sides, Honduras Mahogany neck w/Ebony fretboard. Hot hide glue construction, French polish shellac finish. Nice loud woody tone, great for Celtic & old time playing.


Very tempting. I love black walnut.

----------


## brunello97

Don't know whether this nice looking flatback has shown up elsewhere.  Something we've seen from bro' Jake?

The seller thinks it might be from Oscar Schmidt, which would be my guess based on the body shape and headstock.  The binding detailing is nice throughout, as is the back wood. 

Pretty mandolin. 

Mick

----------


## peterk

A very appealing looking mandolin. I love the aged soundboard surface......reminds me of a fine old gunstock colour. 
I'd like it even better if the back was done without the "something-burst" stain scheme. :Grin:

----------


## brunello97

I enjoy a nice faux finish, even more when I am fooled by one.  :Redface:   On furniture, old house walls and even instruments sometimes.  I think this one is fairly nicely done.  

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

very pretty - bridge looks like the mustache i always wanted but never had.

----------


## peterk

> I enjoy a nice faux finish, even more when I am fooled by one.   On furniture, old house walls and even instruments sometimes.  I think this one is fairly nicely done.  
> Mick


I would agree with that.........as far as "burst" finishes go, this one is OK. :Wink:  
Many years ago luthiers have developed a method of staining for their violins/violas which would make them appear old ("antiquing"), as an aesthetic device. In simplified terms, the areas of instruments which get rubbed in use would be imparted lighter stain. However, such "antiquing"  required significant skill in order to be executed in a convincing manner.

----------


## brunello97

Would you call that a _burst_, Peter?  Seems like they were trying to imitate bookmatched tiger maple.  Sunburst finishes are just that: sprayed on layers of colorant.  A different intention altogether. 

Not sure exactly what you mean by 'convincing manner'.  This kind of faux graining is a different thing altogether from antiquing, which might be closer to the 'distressed finish' that some higher end F5s are supplied with.  Some of the more delightful faux finishes are just that: faux.  We are all in on the trick. _Charming_ is the word that I would use to describe the best examples  Some look awful (think of the backs of many of the Harmony Monterrey mandolins which look like they were roasted on a grill.)   

Mick

----------


## peterk

Mick, I like this sort of a stain "burst" done by Gregg Alf: a copy of "Lord Wilton" Del Gesu. :Smile:

----------


## brunello97

Nice looking violin.  Still seems like an attempt for faux tiger, flame or a mighty-big-bear claw maple. Often desired for backs, as I understand it.

Maybe I'm just accustomed to thinking about the term 'burst' in relation to mandolin--and guitar--(sun)bursts on Gibsons, etc.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Something we've seen from bro' Jake?


That is what I thought, too. Check out *this page* on JW's blog.

----------


## brunello97

Yup. That's it.  I thought I'd seen it with Jake. Maybe the Ebay seller is the feller that Jake fixed it up for. I'd be surprised if he got the 6 Cs for it but the prices on these nicer flatbacks have been moving up.

Mick

----------


## peterk

Mick, I was just kidding. That's what happens when an amateur violinist becomes a dilettante mandolinist. :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a real oddball. *German flatback covered with MOTS*. Looks normal from the front but then you look at the back... Yikes!

----------


## Tavy

Is that a mandolin or a frying pan???   :Whistling:

----------


## peterk

A chestnut roasting pan ? :Grin:

----------


## Jeff Hildreth

When an accordeon and a mandolin "get together".

----------


## Bob Clark

That back reminds me of a 1960's toilet seat lid.

----------


## Jim Garber

> That back reminds me of a 1960's toilet seat lid.


Hence: Mother-of-Toilet-Seat (MOTS)

----------


## brunello97

> When an accordeon and a mandolin "get together".


Which they regularly do at our house, but they are strictly chaperoned....

Mick

----------


## ajr

G'Day Mick,

Just came across this post. 

I have the other one of these Oscar Schmidt Mandos which appears in a slightly earlier post of Jake's. 

It is all but exactly the same as this one. 

It actually isn't a faux finish. Either that or they have done the stripes on the inside as well exactly matching the outside.

It's a lovely little Mando and I feel fortunate to have her.

I always enjoy your posts.

All the best

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Alex.  I'd love to see some photos of your OS.  Can you post some?

Jake's still looks pretty faux to me, but that isn't implying anything about yours.  Of course, I could be wrong about the back on Jake's.  Can be hard to tell without the instrument in hand.

Mick

----------


## ajr

> Thanks, Alex.  I'd love to see some photos of your OS.  Can you post some?
> 
> Jake's still looks pretty faux to me, but that isn't implying anything about yours.  Of course, I could be wrong about the back on Jake's.  Can be hard to tell without the instrument in hand.
> 
> Mick


G'Day Mick,
I'm not a great photographer at all and I am relying on my phone camera at the moment, but I have taken a shot down through the sound hole and you can see the stripes on the inside of the back. 

For other photos, Jake has a blog entry for my Mando on September 1st last year, which would have better photos than I think I could deliver. I'm happy to try to get some more though if you would like me to.

I must admit that from the photos, I would think that it is faux as well. Apart from the lack of a Moustache Bridge, the only real difference I detect from the one you have shown is a slightly different shaped heel and of course the pick wear on the pick guard.

Now to attempt to attach a the photo. This may or may not work. 

Hmmm. It didn't. Any suggestions?

All The Best

----------


## billkilpatrick

oddity on ebay.fr this morning - bet it sounds "woody" in the worst possible sense:

----------

Jim Garber

----------


## Jim Garber

> Anybody else see this in the Classifieds?  Looks gorgeous! (NFI)
> 
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/70147
> 
> bratsche


It is back in the classifieds: *Martin 45-AK Mandolin*

----------


## brunello97

That thing hurts my eyes.

Mick

----------


## Rob Norton

I've looked at that, and I think it's very cool. I'm a bit fan of Martin flatbacks, and if I were rolling in dough I'd be tempted to buy it.

My taste in them, however, has moved over the years toward the plainer models.  I owned a Style E once, and also a C, but the only one I've kept is a "Bitting Special" from the teens, which is a very understated little fella (somewhere between an A and a B in ornamentation).

I feel for the owner of this one.  He's obviously got a very special instrument (like the man says, find another!), but I suspect you could count the universe of people who might want to buy -- and could afford to buy -- this on the fingers of one hand.

----------


## Bob Clark

My taste usually tends to run toward instruments with simple ornamentation, but this one really appeals to me. There's just something about it I find very attractive. I sure would love to own it.  

Like Rob Norton, I also feel for the owner.  He has a real treasure for someone, but the problem is finding that 'someone.'  I hope he does find someone with the necessary desire and resources, because it is a shame to see it languishing here in the classifieds.

----------


## Jim Garber

This is an old thread, but I found *another example of one recently on eBay UK* of these oddball Frederick Winslow-labeled mandolins. These are sort of bowlback or not. i guess there were at least two versions.

Take a look at *this one earlier on this thread* (a flatback) or this one (sort of bowlback) *even earlier*

----------


## brunello97

Muy cool, Jim. Some very nice and some very weird detailing.

Looks like the top has a considerable amount of doming to it.  A lot to like in terms of the proportions as well.  Okay, the bridge is pretty clunky looking--may just a bit thick.  I like the inset compensated saddle which I do hope that is bone instead of ivory.

The strange criss-crossed stringing geometries look consistently strange.

The UK-USA shipping is stunning or I'd find myself venturing a bid.   Maybe this is something John M would like... 

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

oddness abounds - looks like it was made by a boat designer ... a dinghie.

----------


## Tavy

> The UK-USA shipping is stunning or I'd find myself venturing a bid.   Maybe this is something John M would like...


Interesting for sure, but in all honesty I find it pretty ugly... sorry!

----------


## Jim Garber

It is a fascinatingly-designed instrument but the bridge and the tailpiece are way over the top. I kind of like the simpler thinline armrest but the rest is too much. It is funny but this sort of reminds me of a beautiful woman who has to wear dental appliances -- it is difficult to see the beauty, assuming there is some. It is currently at 111.00GDP plus 85 for shipping.

----------


## brunello97

A lone voice crying in the wilderness.... :Wink:   I was going to say that I thought that repaired center line crack looked a bit _off_. 

Currently up over $300 by current dollar-to-pound currency rate.  Should I wait until after tomorrow's vote to see if the cambio improves?

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Despite myself I launched a desultory snipe bid and wound up winning this B+J Victoria mandola.  The seller thinks Regal-made and I have no reason to doubt him, though I haven't poked around in Bob Carlin's book at all to see if there is any confirmation there.

It arrived yesterday in VG condition, better actually than the seller implied.  It's quite enjoyable to play bright and loud though perhaps not as nuanced as the Truax 'spinet' bowldola I have, which is the only day-to-day functioning CGDA I have at the moment.  Seems like I've been fussing with the frets on my Puglisi mandola forever (longer even than the full sized bowldolas I have waiting for repair.)

Really enjoying the "Regal" which has reminded me how much I like that lower end.  We saw the PEI band Vishten at the Ark here in AA a couple weeks back and one of the sisters (or maybe both) played a cittern or OM or something big (I had a pint or two in me and my glasses off) which sounded great.  Well everything they played sounded great.  I guess I have them to thank for even tossing in a bid on this.  This all has me in mind for a proper OM.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

That is a nice one, Mick. I like the shape of the pickguard and I always liked that Regalian headstock shape as well. Nice and simple but appealing. Glad to hear that it plays and sounds well also.

----------


## DavidKOS

brunello97 , lovely mandola, enjoy playing it!

----------


## billkilpatrick

looks good.

it's all about that bass ...

----------


## Rob Zamites

Nice instrument, and the Ark is a great place for shows! Enjoy playing her!

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice, Mick. I would say Regal too by that headstock. I love the lower end instruments that truly have soul! Enjoy.

----------


## Jim Garber

Mick: I found this page of Harwood mandolins in a 1926 JW Jenkins Co catalog. They resemble your simple mandola, at least in style and prob were made by the same maker, likely Regal.

BTW what is the scale on your mandola?

----------

lflngpicker

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Jim and Rob. The scale is 16.5" mas o menos.

The Harwood mandolin images do look pretty much dead-on for the Regal mandolin shown on pg 72 of Bob Carlin's book.  He has a page from the "Progressive Musical Instrument Corp." and makes note that the Model 110 was labeled for Harwood and Ditson as well.

Page 71 of Bob's book shows a Regal Mandola model 2365 which looks dead-on for mine with the B+J Victoria label.  Mahogany stain on birch, etc.  $10.00.

That's not a lot of money even in 1928 bucks.  The CPI inflation calculator maps that out to $128 in 2014. I paid too much!  :Crying: 

It does play and sound nicely.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Another interesting flatback mandolin under the label H Webb.  Seller says label reads:

"Estab. 1886, H. Webb, Princess St., W' Hampton"

Appears to have a similar headstock and side sound portals as the other Webb example from a few years back.

English Walnut?  

Mick

----------

billkilpatrick

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting, Mick. I also wonder why the seller says Edinburgh. I am no expert on UK geography but a quick search put Hampton as a suburb of London. That back button is very elongated. 

Here are a few more picks of the other Webb I have in my files from 2008 (same as the one you link to). The neck joint/button looks less elongated on this older one.

----------


## brunello97

Yeah, Jim, either something went awry or else the designer wanted to _make sure that neck wouldn't bend!_  Hard to imagine playing above the 5th fret on this one.

Brings to mind the old baseball player Walt "No Neck" Williams. 

Mick

----------

Bill Clements, 

Jim Garber

----------


## derbex

> Interesting, Mick. I also wonder why the seller says Edinburgh. I am no expert on UK geography but a quick search put Hampton as a suburb of London.


Hi Jim -the most famous Princess St. in the UK is in Edinburgh, so i guess that's why. 'Princess St., W' Hampton' suggests to me Wolverhampton though -and there is a Princess St. there. 

I used to live close to Hampton, come to think of it I used to play in an Irish session there, and I don't recall a Princess St. -also W. Hampton doesn't exist as such, it's Hampton, Hampton Wick or Hampton Court. Too much useless information  :Smile:

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks, Derbex!!

----------


## brunello97

Here's a Martin made Ditson labeled flatback with some of the Martin B model wood and details.  I had one of these for some time and my example wasn't quite up to the sound quality of the other Martin Bs I have played.  Could have been a one-off aberration. 

This one does have the split cone neck joint detail sometimes referred to here as a 'volute'.  Jim, I am now on board with the term.  A bit confusing, perhaps, but grounded in the fossil record.  :Wink: 

Mick

----------

billkilpatrick

----------


## mandrian

Hi,  

Bit late to this thread, but note that the famous street in Edinburgh is Princes Street, not Princess Street.

Regards,




> Hi Jim -the most famous Princess St. in the UK is in Edinburgh, so i guess that's why. 'Princess St., W' Hampton' suggests to me Wolverhampton though -and there is a Princess St. there. 
> 
> I used to live close to Hampton, come to think of it I used to play in an Irish session there, and I don't recall a Princess St. -also W. Hampton doesn't exist as such, it's Hampton, Hampton Wick or Hampton Court. Too much useless information

----------


## Tavy

Been a while since anyone posted here.... not sure if this one is noteworthy so much as just strange...

----------


## Jim Garber

It looks like the mandolin wants to eat that butterfly.  :Smile:  That is a bit odd. Maybe the maker was working from memory and forgot that the scratchplate is usually under the soundhole instead of the opposite.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## billkilpatrick

deep-dish mandolin ... severe looking saddle on the neck.  hope it doesn't sound like it looks.

----------


## Tavy

> deep-dish mandolin ... severe looking saddle on the neck.  hope it doesn't sound like it looks.


Probably far worse  :Smile:

----------


## Jim Garber

I love the looks of these *oddball harp mandolins*. This one is from the esteemed Puglisi shop.

----------


## brunello97

This one is exceptionally coolioso, Jim, even for Puglisi. The Dali references go without saying.

The back is one nice looking slab. Rosewood?

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

Here's a goody - go get 'em, tiger:

----------


## Tavy

> Here's a goody - go get 'em, tiger:


Gulp!

Not sure whether to run away screaming or not...

----------


## billkilpatrick

According to Dave Hynds, "Cyrano" was a German trade mark.  What's interesting is the 5th course - a single "C," I assume.  Never seen that before:

----------

brunello97

----------


## Jim Garber

> According to Dave Hynds, "Cyrano" was a German trade mark.


I would expect that it would have a long pointed headstock with that name.




> What's interesting is the 5th course - a single "C," I assume.  Never seen that before:


Isn't that how they string *Waldzithers*?




> The most common type has the tuning C3*G3 G3*C4 C4*E4 E4*G4 G4.

----------


## blindsay86

Hi all, I'm at it again, found another old Mandolin to restore.  Anybody have a guess on the year?  Made in Czechoslovakia.
Thanks ahead!

----------


## vic-victor

> Hi all, I'm at it again, found another old Mandolin to restore.  Anybody have a guess on the year?  Made in Czechoslovakia.
> Thanks ahead!


Hard to say for sure, I'd say could be anywhere from 1930's to 1950's. My gut feeling it is post-war, especially if it has painted fretboard.  Czech town of Luby is only some 10 km from Markneukirchen in Germany and both places were known for musical instruments making and made instruments of similar designs. Post-war Czech instruments were often branded Artia or Cremona. What does the label say?

----------

blindsay86

----------


## blindsay86

> Hard to say for sure, I'd say could be anywhere from 1930's to 1950's. My gut feeling it is post-war, especially if it has painted fretboard.  Czech town of Luby is only some 10 km from Markneukirchen in Germany and both places were known for musical instruments making and made instruments of similar designs. Post-war Czech instruments were often branded Artia or Cremona. What does the label say?


Hi the fretboard appears to be painted. The label on the inside appears to read "Lignatone" and has a red Lion.

----------


## vic-victor

Lignatone is definitely post war.

----------

blindsay86

----------


## blindsay86

> Lignatone is definitely post war.


Thanks for the info, it's much appreciated!  I've found them on EBAY for $80-$150, got mine for $25 any idea on what they're really worth?

----------


## vic-victor

If playable around $150.00 If not, about half if so.

----------

blindsay86

----------


## Tavy

Interesting German "boat-backed" mandolin on eBay uk



If it sounds as good as the similarly constructed waldzithers, it's probably a decent player, but someone is going to have to do some serious work on that horrible finish!

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Jim Garber

I would not call it boatback, more of a Portuguese Mandolin back but I believe this is typical Wappen style Mandolin.

----------


## Beanzy

These three popped up on a German auction site, I’ve no idea about them but they’re funky.
The first one is a fiddle, but it using mandolin tech and the second is a mandolin using fiddle structure.
   

 

The third just couldn’t decide so went for both.
  (someone has used the sleeve guard as a decoration)

----------


## Jim Garber

I don't have a clue how you would play the "turnover" one.  These should also go in the *Mandolin Oddities* thread.

Eoin, did they have additional photos on that site? If so, I would love to see the photos. I assume it wasn't eBay Germany.

----------


## Tavy

Here's an interesting one on eBay UK

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS

----------


## Jim Garber

Very interesting but a little confusing provenance of this mandolin tho interesting design and construction too. It is a lot older than I thought it would be.

----------


## Tavy

Vinaccia on eBay with a rather high asking price.

Is this the real deal?  It rather looks to me like a typical inter-war German made instrument?  Rather interesting if it a Vinaccia though...

----------


## Jim Garber

I think he has had that listed over and over for months now. I don’t think the condition is all that great to warrant the price he is asking.

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## Tavy

Well this one's a bit silly - 16 string mandolin on eBay UK - some nice MOP, but just try keeping this one in tune  :Wink:   Check out those tuners too:

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## Jim Garber

John: do you have a link to the auction. Who is the maker?

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## Tavy

Sorry Jim, link here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-VINT...19.m1438.l2649

No clear image of the label, but the sellers description says: "P. COSENTINO MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS DEPOT, VALLETTA, MALTA"

I'm fairly sure that's not the maker though...?

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## Jim Garber

Heres an interesting one. Seller says US made. I am not so sure. My gut says European, maybe German. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F132813942331

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## brunello97

> Heres an interesting one. Seller says US made. I am not so sure. My gut says European, maybe German. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F132813942331


Posting a photo here for posteriority.

Satanic Pickguards Are Real.

Mick

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Jim Garber

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## Tavy

Clifford Essex "Gold Medal" model recently restored for a client: as best I can determine these were made in London between 1903 and 1919 after which time "and sons" was added to the makers name.  Internally construction is basically identical to the DeMeglios albeit with a flat back.  They also have the same side sound ports as the DeMeglios as well.  Pickguard is after-market.  Nice mandolin, very lively and well made.

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brunello97, 

Jim Garber

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## brunello97

That's a beauty, John.  Thanks for posting.

I'm a sucker for beautiful rosewood, and that is very nice.  

What is about the internal construction that reminds you of DeMeglio?

Mick

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## Tavy

> That's a beauty, John.  Thanks for posting.
> 
> I'm a sucker for beautiful rosewood, and that is very nice.  
> 
> What is about the internal construction that reminds you of DeMeglio?
> 
> Mick


Side ports, string tensioner, top bracing pattern is identical internally (and caused me some issues because the centre reinforcing strip had come loose allowing the top to sag badly).

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brunello97

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## Jim Garber

I posted photos of my mother and daughter Leland (piccolo and standard) on *this post* more than 11 years ago, but took some photos of them today. 

In the newish Leland thread, some discussion that they made a higher end one with a 13-3/4" scale and i took my standard one out to measure it and, sure enough, it has that longer scale. I need to set it up proper and see how it plays after all these years.

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## brunello97

> I posted photos of my mother and daughter Leland (piccolo and standard) on *this post* more than 11 years ago, but took some photos of them today. 
> 
> In the newish Leland thread, some discussion that they made a higher end one with a 13-3/4" scale and i took my standard one out to measure it and, sure enough, it has that longer scale. I need to set it up proper and see how it plays after all these years.


Interesting about the "longer scale" Leland.  I've never seen one of these in person.  All mine have been the 13" scale.  Yours looks like it has a bit of wear on the top north of the cant line...or is that just in photo.  Maybe from a missed located bridge at one time, or does the nut-to-12th fret check out at 6-7/8"?
Who knows?  Maybe the LarBros were behind the longer scale models?   :Cool: 
Mick

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## Jim Garber

> Interesting about the "longer scale" Leland.  I've never seen one of these in person.  All mine have been the 13" scale.  Yours looks like it has a bit of wear on the top north of the cant line...or is that just in photo.  Maybe from a missed located bridge at one time, or does the nut-to-12th fret check out at 6-7/8"?
> Who knows?  Maybe the LarBros were behind the longer scale models?  
> Mick


The bridge was positioned above the cant originally and has been there for quite a while since i never set this one up. Of course, now I want to do so. Yes, nut to 12th is 6-7/8" which is how I knew it was longer scale. The bridge is now closer to where it should be, I think.

I have a bone guitar saddle for this mandolin but just have to cut it down and slant the sides so it fits in the bridge. Here is closeup of the bridge area.

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## brunello97

Thanks, Jim.  Now I want to go back and remeasure all my Lelands.   :Confused: 

Would be super insterested to know if the body dimensions are larger or whether they simply positioned the bridge further back--which if your current photo is correct it doesn't look like--or pushed the cant location a bit further back.    Could you measure the distance between the south edge of the scratchplate and the cant line for me?

In any even there would need to be a whole new fretbaoard layout for the longer scale...but the fretboard tail doesn't look any longer on yours.  Also worth a comp with mine.

Last question: I've probably asked you this and you probably answered and I probably forgot:  can you check for that elusive SN on the brace North of the soundhole.   The OP in the other Leland thread said there wasn't one on his--very interesting.  All mine have had them including the non-Leland labeled ones.

Thanks, amigo!

Mick

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## Jim Garber

SN is 11802. Cant to tailpiece is about 4-3/8”. Looks like 3/4” from pickguard to cant.

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## brunello97

Thank you, sir!  
Mick

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## brunello97

Has it really been April since we've had a flatback of note?

This handsome mandolin from George La Foley crossed my radar this morning.  

I've never played one, but appreciate this mandolin's straightforward, well proportioned design.

I'm also tempted to pronounce the maker's name as a Frenchified: _Georges._

Mick

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DavidKOS

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## Jim Garber

Was that scratchplate added? It looks rather funky.

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## brunello97

> Was that scratchplate added? It looks rather funky.


If you look closer, I think you'll find that it closely resembles the shape of a _fromage_ with a few small nibbles.  
Or a map of the Acquitaine region.
One more reason to suspect a French connection for M. La Foley.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I still think the scratchplate was added. The other older example I have has a vertical oval soundhole and more of a standard inlaid scratchplate and this one I found on Reverb has none at all but it does have the tensioner.

Here's the older one, with a sort of DeMeglio headstock shape and a Barnes & Mullins store label:
  

And this one on Reverb in which the seller says is from the 1920s:
   

Good info from the seller:



> *Vintage & Rare 1920s London Hand Made G. (GEORGE) LA FOLEY Cased Mandolin*  
> 
>   A very rare British made mandolin constructed from Mahogany Rosewood and spruce, a label signed by the maker with original case, George La Foley was a famous British luthier manufacturer in London in the 1920s, but ceased trading in the early 1930s. His instruments are sought after by players and I can see why from this example - a fine mandolin hand made in the early 20th century by a well known maker.  Includes the original lightweight travel case.
>  The instrument has been well looked after, has no cracks or breaks, repairs or distortion. The top is fine grained spruce with full bindings interspersed with rosewood around the top and sound hole. Internally the mandolin is fully lined, finely braced and there is a stamp on the neck block 'LA FOLEY MAKER LONDON'   The sound is full and loud and the intonation is very good.  
> 
>   The floating rosewood bridge is stamped  “JOHN GREY & SONS” There is an ebony 'string break angle' ebony bar which is attached to the top a by two adjustable screws short distance from the bridge.
> 
>   The neck / body joint is solid and sound. The neck is perfectly straight and true. Frets have plenty of life left. Playing action is low and quick and sounds strong and really good. The Tuning machines all work well and hold tune well.  The mandolin has been recently re-strung with nickel 10-32 strings
> 
> ...

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DavidKOS

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## Jim Garber

This one was posted as sold by Hobgoblin in UK last August. Same odd scratchplate as the one Mick posted with added pickup.

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## brunello97

Yes, I've seen DeMegio-ish La Foleys, Jim, and others with somewhat odd floating pickguards.  Seems like another British make (JE Dallas?) sometimes used a similar approach to the oddly shaped floating or attached pickguards.
At least there isn't a dopey dragon on them.

Mick
.

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Jim Garber

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## ukcarrie

https://reverb.com/uk/item/39182923-...s-plate-1910-s
Beautiful French 'Phrynis' flatback mandolin for sale in France (I was thinking about whether I could afford it but there seem to be too many potential difficulties with charges and CITES post-Brexit alas  :Frown: )

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## ukcarrie

I haven't been able to find any information about the French luthier 'Phyrnis' apart from a few listing (one listed as Eugene Barthelemy so that might be his fullname?).  The one on Reverb looks really nice and has a wider fretboard than other French-made mandolins.  Do we know anything about the maker?

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## Jim Garber

One reference I can find is a rare phonograph player mentioned on a talking machine forum. This mandolin resembles others from the JTL shop in France with various model names stamped. I have one that says Euterpe. I wonder if this were made to sold in a store that sold that brand of talking machine. I will check my files for similar mandolins when I can get on my computer.

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ukcarrie

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## ukcarrie

Thank you Jim.  Is the JTL shop Jerome Thibouville-Lamy - so 'Phrynis' might be a brand name but made by JTL?  I came across one with a Garelli signature and couldn't find info on the luthier so might be the same thing.

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## Jim Garber

The pickguard is very similar to my Euterpe and I have seen similar on their Phebe-branded ones as well. OTOH I see a few others with that Phrynis brand that were associated with Eugene Barthelemy. Not sure who he is.

For historical purposes, here are a few photos of this Phrynis mandolin.

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DavidKOS, 

ukcarrie

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## brunello97

Where's Victor the K?

"Phrynnis or Phrynis of Mytilene was a celebrated dithyrambic poet of ancient Greece, who lived roughly around the time of the Peloponnesian War....

He belonged to the Lesbian school of citharoedic music, having been taught music by Aristocleides, a musician of the time of the Persian Wars, who claimed a lineal descent from the renowned Terpander. Before receiving the instructions of this musician, *Phrynnis had been a flute-player, which may partly account for the liberties he took with the music of the cithara. His innovations and affectations are repeatedly attacked by the comic poets, especially Pherecrates and Aristophanes.*

Among the innovations which he is said to have made, *was the addition of two strings to the heptachord*; and Plutarch relates that, when he went to Sparta, the Ephors cut off two of his nine strings, only leaving him the choice whether he would sacrifice the two lowest or the two highest. Some scholars consider this anecdote doubtful; for it is not improbable that the number of strings had been increased at an earlier period. 

What is not controversial is that Phrynnis earned the ire of these poets owing to his technique of "bending" or "turning" (kampai) the melody, a modulation that other poets thought "ruined" the music."

Bending the melody?  Pixxing off Aristophanes? (Who does that?!) Worth getting a mandolin named after you for that...

Mick

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DavidKOS, 

ukcarrie

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## Jim Garber

OK, so other branded French mandolins: Euterpe (muse in charge of music and dance) and Phebe (goddess of the moon). I don't think Victor the K was branded on any French mandolin, though.  :Smile: 

While we are waiting for Victor K...

Here are three pages from a 1912 JTL catalog showing Phebe and Euterpe flatback mandolins. If nothing else the overall style is similar and the scratchplate close in style.

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

ukcarrie

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## Tom Haywood

My old tired eyes with no glasses on looked over from another computer and saw this thread title as Flashbacks of Note. 21 pages!!

Oh, well... I'll go back to my corner now.

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brunello97

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## brunello97

> I don't think Victor the K was branded on any French mandolin, though.


Well, if any of us deserves to be....I would vote for Victor.... :Wink: 

Mick

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## ukcarrie

I hadn't registered that 'Phrynis' related to Greek mythology - so a mysterious Eugene Barthelemy could be the luthier working under JTL.  I will be keeping my peepers out for JTL mandolins in the UK - they look lovely.

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## Jim Garber

Here's an interesting *Portuguese-made bandolim* with Preston tuners. I think this shop might be still in business (found a page on Facebook) although some of the links I have found apply to items other than music. I have found a few other mandolins and at least one guitar from this shop.

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DavidKOS, 

Eugene

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## Jim Garber

Here's a *2019 thread* on another Portuguese mandolin like the one I posted above. In it a *link to a blog* with a similar instrument (scroll down below the balalaika).

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## brunello97

Here's a curiosity (to me at least): what is certainly a Martin made / Favilla labeled flatback mandolin.

I like to keep an eye out for Favilla mandolins, but don't recall seeing something like this before.
Maybe I've missed it

Far too well done to be a copy.

Why Favilla would job out flatback mandolins to Martin is a puzzle to me.

Thoughts on this?

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Without some pics to compare I would say it is Favilla-made and not made by Martin. The headstock looks different to me and I am guessing there are some other subtle differences that we would see in a side by side comparison. Feel free to prove me wrong

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## brunello97

> Without some pics to compare I would say it is Favilla-made and not made by Martin. The headstock looks different to me and I am guessing there are some other subtle differences that we would see in a side by side comparison. Feel free to prove me wrong


That may be a hard task, you honor.

There are some subtleties there, Jim.

Maybe a leaner headstock on the Martin?  The back termination at the neck seems to have varied on Martins from somewhat pointy to rounded as we see on the Favilla.

I can't seem to find any photos of the Ditson labeled Martin I had years ago that also had some subtle differences from the basic flatback Martins.  But they were very subtle.

Of course, the many Favilla flatbacks we've seen bear no resemblance to Martins, but they were trying out a range of variations. 
I have a couple in my files drifting a little into basic Nazarene territory.
Did they just dive in to try to copy the competition?

A here's an Ockham's Razor-y question:  

Why would Favilla go to such lengths to nearly perfectly copy a Martin (when we know Martin was making A models for Ditson, Stewart and others)...and then make apparently make only one of them?

Well, maybe there are more, which we've never seen. :Wink: 

I suppose any answer to that question is a viable one.  

I'm sure someone will weigh in with an 'expert' opinion.

I think I'll give Subway Guitars a call tomorrow and ask a few questions.  

I'm super interested in Favilla mandolins so would like to know more about this.

Mick

BTW this Martin is from the 50s...likely a bit newer era than the Favilla.

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Bob Clark, 

DavidKOS

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## Jim Garber

This Kerman mandolin in the classifieds certainly belongs in this thread although I have a feeling it will show up elsewhere as well. I have never seen one sold used. I dont think Aria Kerman made many of them to begin with but IIRC new they were going for about $7000 a few years ago. $21K seems a bit steep but these have a holy grail quality since most seem to be in virtuoso Israeli hands and I believe that AK is no longer making them, I think

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DavidKOS

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## NickR

It has been suggested I post up this mandolin- an early 1900s Oscar Schmidt "Tremolina" a very rare and innovative design that did not catch on- there is more about that in the thread below: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...midt-Tremolina

Here are some photos from the eBay auction and three after I had worked on it but they are a bit on the small side! Only three appear to be known about at the current time- one was probably not ever going to play- the other shown at the link, which is not such high quality- no binding and not rosewood may be a player now.

 ]

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Bob Clark, 

brunello97

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## brunello97

Here's an interesting flatback, of note at least to me.

A Leland "Brilliantone" which looks distinctly different from the many we have seen here, and the eight or so of them that I own.

I've remained pretty convinced that the Lelands I have were Vega made despite the persistent rumors about them being Larson.

I won't go into that again here, but this Brilliantone doesn't match with the catalog photos that Diego G and others have posted here (and are in Keef's book).

The headstock is different, back detailing, scratchplate and likely bridge position (the Vega smoking gun.)

The visible sliver of the label that shows appears to be different as well.

Wondering where this might have fit into evolution of the line / brand.


I've got a couple Wurlitzer 'Brilliantones' which are essentially identical to the Vega "Leland" ones but for one with a mahogany back (which sounds like it) 

Do I need another? Sure I do, but the $499 price tag on this one is a bit steep for me to simply check it out.

Mick

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## brunello97

Another "Brilliantone" for sale on the Ebay, this one a "Piccolo" mandolin scale model.


Make note that the seller thankfully includes a "?" after the Larson attribution.   I've long held the position that these are Vega made, but that's another story.

I believe our friend, Diego Garber, has one of these, but am not sure if it has the same bling.

Maybe he'll join in and post a photo of his.  (I know he has before.)

None of the numerous Leland short scale mandolins I own have such.

I can't imagine having much use for one of these outside a classic mandolin ensemble, but I love the sound of the Vega-Lelands I have played so hopefully this carries the same tonal quality.   

No straight on photos of the back in the sales ad, but the sides appear to be rosewood.

This one also has the "Washburn" headstock, which is curious.

The two other piccolo Lelands I have in my file have a 'broken pediment' headstock and an 'open book' style respectively.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Mick: I am not sure about the piccolo attribution. Seller says: *12 7/8” Scale Length “Piccolo Mandolin?”

*That is almost 13” and very close to standard mandolin scale for these. IIRC my piccolo has a 10-1/2” or possibly 11” scale. I will have to check.

=============
yes, check out this page which says the piccolo has 10-1/4” scale: http://www.sprucetreemusic.com/produ...ndolin-c-1912/

another one from Jake says the same scale: https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/20...-mandolin.html

Then again Gregg Miner has apace about them but he shows one in the middle between a Gibson and a German pocket mandolin (13” scale) and the piccolo pictured is much shorter in comparison. https://www.minermusic.com/piccolomandolin.htm

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## Bob Clark

> I can't imagine having much use for one of these outside a classic mandolin ensemble, but I love the sound of the Vega-Lelands I have played so hopefully this carries the same tonal quality.


Hi Mick,

This looks like a nice little piccolo, and I'd love to have a chance to hear it, or even better, play it.  I'm actually quite a fan of piccolo mandolins, having built a number of them at this point.  While I believe that many players wouldn't have much use for them, for those of us who do, they add an interesting and quite pretty voice to our music.  

Despite playing in a mandolin orchestra, I have never used one of my piccolos with the orchestra.  In my mandolin/guitar duo, I use it for a few tunes at almost every gig.  We play Renaissance era music, Gaelic and Celtic music and some South American Folk.  Actually, quite a range of genres.  As examples of tunes for which it works, we are playing a concert this Sunday night as part of a local concert series.  It's a concert, not one of our usual gigs, so we're only playing for only about an hour-and-a-quarter and have to choose our pieces carefully.  I will be playing one of my flat-top mandolins on most pieces, a Paddy Burgin Irish Bouzouki I recently acquired on several pieces, and one of my piccolo mandolins on two or three pieces.  Two of these are the traditional tune _Pretty Little Cat_ (quite fitting for me) and Pete Seeger's _Where have all the Flowers Gone?_.  Still deciding on a third piece for it.  We're not playing any South American Folk at this one, but it really works for that genre, as well.

I don't know if we'll record anything from this concert.  It's in a beautiful, historic Friends Meetinghouse dating to 1785 and I have to see how the space works acoustically.  If I do record anything on the piccolo mandolin, though, I'll try posting it to show how it blends with the guitar.

I wish you lived nearby.  I'd love to have you try out one of my piccolos. I am sure we'd have fun playing together and enjoying some wine.

Best wishes,

Bob

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brunello97

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## brunello97

Jim, you’re no doubt right here.   I think I misread the ad and jumped the gun.

The Washburn-ish headstock is what really caught my eye and attention.

Without a bridge in place I could readily see how a measurement would be off, and if the seller was used to long scale mandolins then this might seem piccolo without being a Piccolo.

Sorry for the errant post.

An interesting addition the the Leland line, nonetheless.

Mick

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