# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  Bass guitar in Celtic music

## Dagger Gordon

I think this is really good .....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc4x...6-001a113c813c

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Barry Wilson

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## foldedpath

Ewww.... the drums.  :Smile: 

For me, and we're getting deep into personal taste issues here, it's more about the kit drums in that video, especially later in the track, than the bass. 

Bass has some history in recent performance-oriented music, but it's rare. I love what Trevor Hutchinson does with bass in the Lúnasa group. I love what Trevor does on Liz Carroll's last album -- "On the Offbeat." Anyone interested in how bass can work with Celtic music might want to study that album, it's brilliant. Here's a brief taste of the studio session with Trevor on bass:

http://vimeo.com/78488890

On the other hand, that guy that used to show up at the local Scottish/Irish session with a _huge_ banjo bass and no experience other than Bluegrass and OldTime music... not so much. 
 :Wink: 

Edit to add: I just noticed from that Liz Carroll promo video that Chico Huff is also playing bass on the album, with looks like an acoustic guitar-type bass.

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## brunello97

I dig it, Dagger.  Great tune.

All one has to do is take a real (or virtual MP3) visit to New Orleans to see how tradition and invention live harmoniously and creatively together on a daily basis.

Mick

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## Eddie Sheehy

Horslips had a bass player and a drummer playing trad, and that was back in the early 70's...

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## foldedpath

> Horslips had a bass player and a drummer playing trad, and that was back in the early 70's...


Yep, so did Fairport Convention in the late 60's. I still listen to "Liege and Lief" every once in a while. A classic album, although a nitpicker might not call it Celtic. 

From an older perspective now, and with a somewhat deeper (and still learning) perspective on trad than I had when I was listening to those groups back then, I just don't think kit drums are a good addition. 

The right bass player in the right project though (like I mentioned above), and without kit drums, is something else, and to my ears fits better. Just my $.02 opinion, and that's from someone who started out my musical performing life as a player of kit drums in rock bands.
 :Smile:

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## Mike Anderson

I am of the same mind as foldedpath here, and I started out playing rock/blues/funk drum kit myself. 

While I think bass can be tastefully used in the music (and my old band had a good friend and outstanding musician on Guild acoustic guitar bass with pickup), I do agree about kit drums. I don't think they add anything. Unless you are going to go all-out rock/jazz/Celtic fusion, leave 'em out. Here's Tony MacMahon on an unknown (because not revealed in the video) performance that really resonates with me:

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DougC

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## mandocrucian

I'm with Dagger on this.  Sounded real good.

And _what exactly_ was the problem with the drums?  Sounded _real tasteful_ and appropriate to me.

Besides Fairport Convention, there was Steeleye Span, Horslips, The Woods Band (Terry & Gay Woods), Contraband, Trees, 5-Hand Reel (w/Dick Gaughan), Alan Stivell, Pentangle, Mr. Fox, Albion Country Band, Moving Hearts, Dandoshaft, Hedgehog Pie, Wolfstone and many others out of England, Ireland, Scotland and Brittany that *included both bass and drums*.  I've still got shelves full of LPs of all this stuff, bought more or less when the stuff came out...... and,  *Nobody* was even calling _any_ of this stuff _"Celtic"_ until Alan Stivell came along and started using the term as a descriptive encompassing Ireland/Wales/Scotland/Brittany (to which you can also add the northwest Spanish regions of Galicia and Asturia)

As far as *Padraig Rynne & Notify*... it's _his_ band, _his_ original piece, and he's *Irish*, _lives_ in *Ireland*, etc. etc.,   So I guess he's got a more informed perspective about what he wants to do and what fits _his genre_ of music than backseat drivers from the US or Canada.

But if you want to kibbitz about instrumentation, I'll ad my own little gem of pontification: The _biggest_ mistake New Grass Revival _ever made_ was _not having_ a full-time drummer in the band!

Niles H

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bruce.b, 

derbex

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## Dagger Gordon

There is quite a lot of bass in contemporary Celtic music in bands like Shooglenifty (who incidentally also have the always excellent James MacIntosh on drums).

Padraig Rynne didn't come down with the last shower of rain either. He also has a trio with Donal Lunny and Breton flautist Sylvain Barou (and I think it goes without saying that if Lunny thinks he's good ....)
http://www.padraigrynne.com/projects/index.html

However, I'm not necessarily talking about the use of bass guitar in general.  I like Eoin Walsh's approach in the Notify video.  Not too busy. It seems to me to really shape the music nicely.  I like the band's sound.

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## bruce.b

I liked the video. The drums and bass were well done. The concertina playing sounds great, IMO.

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## Bertram Henze

All musicians keep a delicate balance with each other in that Padraig Rynne recording. The bass player is doing exactly what bass players are supposed to do: form a base nobody would notice consciously but miss it if it weren't there. Nobody's acting the maggot, not even the drummer - this is miles away from the old ceilidh band noise or even Moving Hearts extravaganza. Relaxed listening.

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## Mike Anderson

> As far as *Padraig Rynne & Notify*... it's _his_ band, _his_ original piece, and he's *Irish*, _lives_ in *Ireland*, etc. etc.,   So I guess he's got a more informed perspective about what he wants to do and what fits _his genre_ of music than backseat drivers from the US or Canada.


But...what about *this*? See, I actually agree with you: the music is defined and innovated in its place of origin. I was just expressing a personal aesthetic preference.  :Smile:

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## Roland Sturm

No agreement that it is very well done and sounds very smooth and professional.  The concertina gives it a slightly different texture, but I can understand that some are turned off by the background style, which is firmly in the "smooth jazz",  adult contemporary genre. With a saxophone or electric guitar as the lead sound, this would just work fine on commercial radio (which may found the concertina texture too adventurous). I am not won over by the bass and drums because it is such a standard easy listening formula.

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M.Marmot

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## James Rankine

> But...what about *this*? See, I actually agree with you: the music is defined and innovated in its place of origin. I was just expressing a personal aesthetic preference.


OK I'm throwing my hat into the anti-drumming lobby  :Smile: 
When percussion crosses the line into drumming I find it obtrusive in inherently rhythmic music. I have no issues whatsoever with James Mackintosh's percussion in the transatlantic sessions - brushes lightly stroking a snare drum is OK but not sticks on a full kit. It has nothing to do with where you are from, I feel the same about bluegrass. It's just personal preference. Bodhran in an Irish session is a whole other debate and I'm not going there.
Thought the bass was great though. Thanks for posting Dagger.

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## foldedpath

> I'm with Dagger on this.  Sounded real good.
> 
> And _what exactly_ was the problem with the drums?  Sounded _real tasteful_ and appropriate to me.


It just didn't sound like they added anything, and in fact were a detriment to what else was going on. It's an opinion, that's all.




> As far as *Padraig Rynne & Notify*... it's _his_ band, _his_ original piece, and he's *Irish*, _lives_ in *Ireland*, etc. etc.,   So I guess he's got a more informed perspective about what he wants to do and what fits _his genre_ of music than backseat drivers from the US or Canada.


Backseat drivers? Hey, it's just an opinion. I'm sure this is the sound that Padraig Rynne is shooting for, and more power to him. I hope you're not going down that path of "One must be Irish to have a valid opinion on Celtic Music" or a whole bunch of us are going to have to drop out of the conversation.
 :Wink:

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## Dagger Gordon

Bass guitar is one thing - drums are another.

I expect Kevin MacLeod will chip in sometime to say that the Scottish dance band in which he plays - The Occasionals - have a great drummer called Gus Miller who plays with sticks, mostly using snare drum, and that he is an essential member of the band.
Don't forget Scotland has a huge tradition of pipe band drumming which is extremely skillful and very disciplined.

I would go so far as to say that some of the most inventive musicians on the Scottish scene are drummers and percussionists.  Check out Donald Hay, Martin O'Neill, Jim Sutherland or the recently domiciled Steve Forman. Indeed why not include Scottish classical players like Evelyn Glennie or Colin Currie? And (not Scottish) did anyone ever add more to a band than John Joe Kelly of the Anglo-Irish band Flook?

Anyway, back to the subject.  It doesn't really bother me what people think of Notify's music, where you come from or anything else. It's good to listen to a new band with what seems to me nice use of the bass guitar.

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M.Marmot

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## JeffD

Well I went in expecting to hate it, electric bass and drums and all, and found I liked it.

Both the drums and the bass were well done, tasteful. 

I guess its my expectation (prejudice, I'll admit) that electric instrument players, and drummers, are not going to be able to play tastefully. 

Further going with this line of thinking, is a tasteless drummer who is not listening any worse than a tasteless fiddler who is not listening?

So, as music, as a performance, as a recording, I liked it.


Whats the diff, then, for me? Well, I get a lot out of the _impression_ that the musicians could just gather together, spontaneously, assuming they had a moment to kill, on a street corner, or a pub, or the back of a taxi, or a bench or bus stop café, and just play. I like that impression. That feeling. But lets face it, as soon as you add a microphone you have tossed all that out the window, so - 


So what does all that mean? I dunno.  But I liked the clip.

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## foldedpath

> Bass guitar is one thing - drums are another.
> 
> I expect Kevin MacLeod will chip in sometime to say that the Scottish dance band in which he plays - The Occasionals - have a great drummer called Gus Miller who plays with sticks, mostly using snare drum, and that he is an essential member of the band.
> Don't forget Scotland has a huge tradition of pipe band drumming which is extremely skillful and very disciplined.


Yes, I'm aware of the pipe band drumming tradition. It's one facet of a Scottish trad workshop my S.O. is attending next week (although just the smallpipes & fiddles week, not the GHB & drums week). And yes, Cèilidh bands have drummers. 

I'm just more a fan of the drum-less sound for certain other angles on this music, including the small ensemble format. And to bring it back around to the OP, I do think a good bass player can work well in that format.

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## mandocrucian

> It just didn't sound like they added anything, and in fact were a detriment to what else was going on. It's an opinion, that's all.


*Tasteful* rhythm section playing doesn't call a lot of undo attention to itself.  (You don't want to compete with a "lead bass solo" or a "drum solo".) And it may not be immediately apparent how much it "adds" *until* you do a A/B comparison of the same track with and without. 

Using some musicians who are from a different genre with no familiarity with (or feel for) the genre of music the tunes you are doing can be a train wreck, unless the players are real pros.  And this can apply to celtic players trying to play  along on western-swing or Nordic music too. 

When I did my mando CD 20 years ago, I had a couple of different takes of (my 5-part) _"The Tyrant's Jig"_ with Richard Thompson playing electric guitar behind me (playing acoustic mandolin.)  For the CD, I wanted to fatten it up - on one take I had Myron Bretholz overdub bodhran.  

On a different session (with Ralph Gordon on bass and a fine Puerto Rican latin/jazz drummer), I pulled out a second take of _"Tyrant's Jig"_ and let them go as an experiment. And it was _"Hell Yes!"_ After a couple of run throughs, it went onto tape - great - different feel...had an dark ECM jazz feel to it.  The drummer did some kind of syncopated Latin-jazz 6/8 playing (he really was an excellent drummer who listened and played "the tune" rather than a rote groove).  The gist was that both versions of the tune were so good that it was hard to choose between them.  So I didn't (choose); I used the one with Myron as track 2, and used the 4-piece track as a reprise as the final track.

So if you haven't played with a *good* drummer and/or bassist that *understands* and is *comfortable with the genre* (or is just a pro+), you really don't know what it adds or doesn't.  You don't have the first-hand experience of bass/no-bass and drums/no-drums side-by-side experimentation to realize what it adds or doesn't.

Niles H




> And (not Scottish) did anyone ever add more to a band than John Joe Kelly of the Anglo-Irish band Flook?


Flook are great! They are one of my favorites. And, finally got a copy of their (first) *Flatfish* CD this Christmas as a gift.

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## James Rankine

> So if you haven't played with a *good* drummer and/or bassist that *understands* and is *comfortable with the genre* (or is just a pro+), you really don't know what it adds or doesn't.  You don't have the first-hand experience of bass/no-bass and drums/no-drums side-by-side experimentation to realize what it adds or doesn't.
> 
> Niles H
> 
> 
> 
> Flook are great! They are one of my favorites. And, finally got a copy of their (first) *Flatfish* CD this Christmas as a gift.


Your CD sounds very interesting and I would like to check it out. 
My opinion on drums with certain styles of music is an opinion on what I like to listen to, which is separate to the musical styles I play and musicians with whom I play. Most of the musical styles I listen to I never play as a musician. I am a big classical music fan, particularly choral works and the classical symphony. I never partake in any of this as a musician but it doesn't stop me having very strong opinions on what I like and what I don't. As Steven Fry once said, "I may not be a professional musician but I'm a professional listener".

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## foldedpath

> So if you haven't played with a *good* drummer and/or bassist that *understands* and is *comfortable with the genre* (or is just a pro+), you really don't know what it adds or doesn't.  You don't have the first-hand experience of bass/no-bass and drums/no-drums side-by-side experimentation to realize what it adds or doesn't.


With respect, I reject the idea that one must try everything under the sun, to know what might work for one's personal musical aspirations. 

I wouldn't audition a kit drummer for the trad group I play in, because it just doesn't fit my personal idea of what works in this music. I don't care how good or tasteful they are. I like to hear the pulse in the melody line, with little to no "rhythm section" in the Western pop music sense. To me, that's Folk Rock, which is fine, but it's not what continues to draw me to this music.

I wouldn't hire a tuba player either, on similar grounds. Should I audition a great tuba player anyway, just to see if I'm wrong about what I like to hear?
 :Wink: 

Others might have different preferences and a different threshold for "outside" instruments in a music tradition, which is perfectly fine. We don't all have the same tastes in music.

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## JeffD

I played a craft fair once, and it was me on mandolin, two guitars, and a hammered dulcimer. We sounded really good. Well a friend of a friend of one of the guitarists showed up with a conga drum and asked to sit in. 

Well I gritted my teeth as the guitarist said "sure". 

Turns out the guy could really really play. By that I mean he could listen, and could be tasteful, and knew how to contribute to the kind of stuff we were doing (fiddle tunes and folk songs) in a way that added without being obvious or showing off.

After a few tunes I felt real good about it. He had such a good handle on not just the beat but the groove. I could lean in and he was steady as a rock. I ended up playing better myself, as a result of his holding up the rhythm end of things.


The lesson is, I dunno, ya never know, I guess. I never would have hired him, and I never would have gone out of my way to find a percussionist, but as a result of that experience, I am open to it. Not too open mind you, but a little.

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## foldedpath

I should add that my guitar player and I do some very "outside" things in our duo, just so I don't sound like too much of a stick-in-the-mud.

For some gigs, we'll play a straight trad tune like Morrison's or Cooley's, where I'll play the melody dead straight on mandolin for the first two times through the tune. On the third time, I'll start comping chords, and my guitar player will zone out into Blues/Jazz improv mode on that chord progression. He gets a little wild with it... this is how I keep him interested in playing this stuff. Then we'll fall back out into the straight trad version to end it. We often joke about hearing the Trad Police sirens in the distance. But we also play it straight 'trad for a lot of stuff too, especially for wedding gigs where we're supposed to be quiet and discrete background ambience. 

I just don't want to hear kit drums in this. I would love to have a great bass player join us, but for two reasons (splitting the take three ways, and finding a bass player who can do this), it's probably not in the cards.

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## Mike Anderson

Bodhran ain't drum kit. I've played both, I play bodhran now, I know whereof I speak. Some "trad folk" people don't think bodhran should be in "Celtic" music at all - they are ignorant. It's been used everywhere in the music since Sean O Riada, and in the real wellsprings, the small towns and rural areas, since who-knows-when. If you go to Ireland you will meet thousands of bodhran players. Kids are taught it in school. But drum kit -no. That's for pros making records and wanting crossover success. John Joe Kelly does not play drum kit: he plays bodhran. He is Irish, and has made a huge contribution to developing technique and style on the bodhran.

Scotland has both the pipe band drumming and the ceilidh band drum kit tradition. Those are _traditions_ and they work in those contexts. Nobody is trying to "fuse" anything in those traditions - they have been there for ages, before any of us were born I should think.

And no, again: nobody needs to be Irish to play Irish music, but I will insist to my dying breath that if you think you are innovating and defining the music from the USA or the Maldives or Patagonia, you are deluded and insulting the people whose music this is. Because baby - you ain't Irish. Mick Moloney is Irish, Seamus Egan is Irish no matter how long he's lived in the States. Call it Irish-influenced American music or anything you want, but when you begin fusing and mutating, don't dare call it Irish music.

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

Wasn't drums around in 20th century céilí dancing before Seán Ó Riada made it declasse to have drum set?

“Fiddles and flutes I maintain are the backbone of the céilí band but you do need the accordion now – some kind of instrument you can hear, and the accordion is great for that. Not that I approve of too much accordion by any means but it puts a bit of body into it. We played for nearly ten years without a drummer including playing in big ballrooms and we seemed to get away with it but if your céilí band is playing for dancing you want rhythm and the drum keeps the time. I wouldn’t agree at all with Seán Ó Riada criticising drums in a céilí band”.

http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coc...eili_band2.htm







Those sure look "traditional" and sure look like drums!

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## foldedpath

> Wasn't drums around in 20th century céilí dancing before Seán Ó Riada made it declasse to have drum set?


I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a history of kit drums in Céilí bands, or Highland bagpipe and drum marching bands.

What's at issue here, I think, is whether that tradition ever made it into what we think of as the trad tradition for ensemble folk-revival bands that was established by seminal groups like Planxty and the Bothy Band (and yes, the Chieftains), which might have had bodhran but never a set of kit drums.

And that led directly to the other established performance bands like Altan, Capercaillie, Lúnasa, Solas, Dervish, and the rest. All without kit drums, for a reason. The rhythm pulse is in the melody.

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## Mike Anderson

> I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a history of kit drums in Céilí bands, or Highland bagpipe and drum marching bands.
> 
> What's at issue here, I think, is whether that tradition ever made it into what we think of as the trad tradition for ensemble folk-revival bands that was established by seminal groups like Planxty and the Bothy Band (and yes, the Chieftains), which might have had bodhran but never a set of kit drums.
> 
> And that led directly to the other established performance bands like Altan, Capercaillie, Lúnasa, Solas, Dervish, and the rest. All without kit drums, for a reason. The rhythm pulse is in the melody.


I think this is well said foldedpath. Certainly there is an Irish ceili band drumkit tradition too, like in the famous Kilfenora band. But those ceili bands are a tradition unto themselves - this is not a bunch of modern pop-rock weaned musos seeking crossover success. You stray dangerously into "Riverdance" territory (IMO) when you add rock band elements. 

And hey - at the end of the day it's all different strokes, but as I always remember, I don't have an infinite amount of time to listen to music (or PLAY it), and I just don't care about fusion this and crossover that when there's so much of the past to catch up on and so much goodness right now in the present to find. Esthetic choices, that's all. If one of my band members had suggested adding drum kit I would have fought it and, if outvoted, quit. It's that simple.

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## mandocrucian

_Son, even though we are on this hopeless dying planet, surrounded
by ecosystem collapse and cannibalism, we must still stay true to our 
cult and heritage until death and extinction!_ (as if it matters)

_Say the words:__

Not to beat on the drumkit;  that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?Not to play on the bass;  that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?Not to chop on the mandolin;  that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?Not to crawl on all-fours before sundown;  that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?Evil are the punishments of those who break the Law. ..... None escape.NONE ESCAPE!_

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## foldedpath

> Not to chop on the mandolin;  that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?


We can have a civilized discussion about the rest, but that one? Bluegrass chops in trad? Now we're talking post-apocalypse crossbow duels at 40 paces.

... and that was a _terrible_ movie, just in case we need something else to argue about.  :Smile:

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## Bertram Henze

Drums don't kill the music. Drummers do.

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## Dagger Gordon

It seems clear that people have much more to say about drums than bass guitar.

So OK.  Let's look at some other examples.  It is true that John Joe Kelly of Flook plays bodhran rather than a drum kit.  However, Brian Finnegan's (Flook flute player) new band Kan definitely has a drummer - Jim Goodwin.  And just to add a bit of continuity to this thread, here they are playing a Padraig Rynne tune!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFgU0lN_d_A

Clearly Goodwin is doing something that is miles away from those old Ceili Band drummers.  Then again you could say the same about their music in general.  

Looking for parallels elsewhere, I am a big fan of French guitar/oud/bouzouki player Titi Robin who always seems to like playing with a percussionist - usually this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez2NRhXVIjs

Check out almost anything involving the French/Iranian Chemirani percussion family and I guarantee that you will find some interesting music.
Bijan and Keyvan learnt their art from their father Djamchid and between them have turned up on loads of good stuff.  Once again, to add continuity to the thread, here is a clip of Keyvan playing some Breton music with flute player Sylvain Barou (who as noted earlier is also in a band with Donal Lunny and Padraig Rynne!). Also some good (double) bass in this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDNpF8fm77g

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## Bertram Henze

> Clearly Goodwin is doing something that is miles away from those old Ceili Band drummers.  Then again you could say the same about their music in general.


It's a difference of purposes, too. The Kilkfenora Ceilidh Band is a dancing machine, providing rhythm like a steam engine (and their drumset is quite pathetically inconspicuous, behind all that pumping melody). 

This Kan stuff, OTOH, goes far into jazz, moods painted with a soft brush in the cool blue morning light by the sea, like a Richard Murphy poem, and they are good at it. Some may say that it's not the creaky earthenware acoustics associated with folk music, that it's too much electric interstellar Space Paddy, and thus leaving tradition behind. But I'll say that tradition is a moving target, a constant development eternally pushing its borders. If it has the tonality and the rhythm feel, it's Irish. This is not out of tradition, this *is* tradition.

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## Bertram Henze

> Drums don't kill the music. Drummers do.


On second thoughts, I'll not include cajons in this rule. Cajons kill music, regardless of who rides them.

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## DavidKOS

> What's at issue here, I think, is whether that tradition ever made it into what we think of as the trad tradition for ensemble folk-revival bands that was established by seminal groups like Planxty and the Bothy Band (and yes, the Chieftains), which might have had bodhran but _never a set of kit drums_.


That is a tougher issue!

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## Dagger Gordon

> I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a history of kit drums in Céilí bands, or Highland bagpipe and drum marching bands.
> 
> What's at issue here, I think, is whether that tradition ever made it into what we think of as the trad tradition for ensemble folk-revival bands that was established by seminal groups like Planxty and the Bothy Band (and yes, the Chieftains), which might have had bodhran but never a set of kit drums.
> 
> And that led directly to the other established performance bands like Altan, Capercaillie, Lúnasa, Solas, Dervish, and the rest. All without kit drums, for a reason. The rhythm pulse is in the melody.


It is true to say that the bands you mention did not have kit drums (with the exception of Capercaillie who have used not one but two drummers for a long time now, but didn't when they first started).

However, things have moved on from there, arguably with Moving Hearts (and I still regard their album The Storm as a milestone in Irish music) and later Coolfin.  Scottish bands have featured kit drums for a long time now. Virtually all the main Scottish bands such as Old Blind Dogs, Peatbog Faeries, Capercaillie and Shooglenifty etc now have a drummer.  And actually a bass guitar.

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## Francis J

I really like the OP's video.  It's a complex thing of course, whether it's a living thing, this music, or just a reliving of the past.  There is no "correct" answer, and it will be hotly debated, but the incorporation of "new" instruments onto the genre is the very thing that attracts the "non celtic" (Apologies if that term is offensive) audience to what essentially is tribal music.  Another great example here...............................

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## foldedpath

> It is true to say that the bands you mention did not have kit drums (with the exception of Capercaillie who have used not one but two drummers for a long time now, but didn't when they first started).
> 
> However, things have moved on from there, arguably with Moving Hearts (and I still regard their album The Storm as a milestone in Irish music) and later Coolfin.  Scottish bands have featured kit drums for a long time now. Virtually all the main Scottish bands such as Old Blind Dogs, Peatbog Faeries, Capercaillie and Shooglenifty etc now have a drummer.  And actually a bass guitar.


I guess it depends on what qualifies as a main Scottish band, these days. Is Lau considered Scottish? There are also the duos like Alastair Fraser and Natalie Hass. I know they've done collaborations, but the main duo is drum-less. Then there are artists like piper Fred Morrison who perform solo and with others. I've seen Fred play with guitar and bodhran but not kit drums (although I wouldn't put it past him).

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## Dagger Gordon

> I guess it depends on what qualifies as a main Scottish band, these days. Is Lau considered Scottish? There are also the duos like Alastair Fraser and Natalie Hass. I know they've done collaborations, but the main duo is drum-less. Then there are artists like piper Fred Morrison who perform solo and with others. I've seen Fred play with guitar and bodhran but not kit drums (although I wouldn't put it past him).


Lau I would say are a bit different and are really now moving into areas which don't seem to me to owe much to traditional music at all - although you certainly could argue, and you may well be right, that the same could be said of Padraig Rynne's Notify.  That's not the way I hear it though. I would say they are considered Scottish, even if Martin Green is from England. 

There are certainly duos and other line-ups who don't have drums - notably fiddle based bands like Blazin' Fiddles and Fiddlers Bid, although the other main fiddle band Session A9 does have a drummer.  

I think Fred has been playing mostly solo these days.  He had Matheu Watson on guitar for quite a long time.  

Horses for courses really.

As a side issue, I think the increased use of pick-ups on acoustic instruments now allows for more effective use of drums. Back in the day everybody played through mics and a drum kit on stage was often simply too loud.

Getting back to bass guitars, in the period you seem to be mostly referring to, Silly Wizard were one of the main bands. Essentially an acoustic band - they nonetheless used bass guitar.

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## Bren

I haven't been able to listen to the video in Dagger's original post because of where I am, but some terrific examples of bass playing in fairly "traditional" sounding "Celtic" music I can think of would include Cecil Hughson in Shetland ceilidh band Da Fustra; Buzzby McMillan in the old Blind Dogs and former OBD drummer Davie Cattanach's outings with ceilidh bands round Aberdeen often with bassist Mikey Rae. These guys know the music inside out.

The Chair have a bassist too.

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## Dagger Gordon

To put the original video in some perspective, here is a live clip of what seems to be an earlier version of Notify 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu-8srnR6eY.


Frankly I don't like this much at all. Admittedly it's a live recording, but it doesn't have anything like the subtlety of the newer line-up.

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## M.Marmot

> Kids are taught it in school.


They're also taught to play recorder ... but i've not yet seen a session like this

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## M.Marmot

> I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a history of kit drums in Céilí bands, or Highland bagpipe and drum marching bands.
> 
> What's at issue here, I think, is whether that tradition ever made it into what we think of as the trad tradition for ensemble folk-revival bands that was established by seminal groups like Planxty and the Bothy Band (and yes, the Chieftains), which might have had bodhran but never a set of kit drums.
> 
> And that led directly to the other established performance bands like Altan, Capercaillie, Lúnasa, Solas, Dervish, and the rest. All without kit drums, for a reason. The rhythm pulse is in the melody.


Thats a wee bit selective a reading, pointedly so, when you consider Planxty -----> Moving Hearts

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## M.Marmot

> I am of the same mind as foldedpath here, and I started out playing rock/blues/funk drum kit myself. 
> 
> While I think bass can be tastefully used in the music (and my old band had a good friend and outstanding musician on Guild acoustic guitar bass with pickup), I do agree about kit drums. I don't think they add anything. Unless you are going to go all-out rock/jazz/Celtic fusion, leave 'em out. Here's Tony MacMahon on an unknown (because not revealed in the video) performance that really resonates with me:



Apparently, the music in question was the title track from a series called 'The River of Sound' 

http://www.irishmusicreview.com/aros.htm

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## Colin Lindsay

> I'm with Dagger on this.  Sounded real good.
> 
> And _what exactly_ was the problem with the drums?  Sounded _real tasteful_ and appropriate to me.
> 
> Besides Fairport Convention, there was Steeleye Span, Horslips, The Woods Band (Terry & Gay Woods), Contraband, Trees, 5-Hand Reel (w/Dick Gaughan), Alan Stivell, Pentangle, Mr. Fox, Albion Country Band, Moving Hearts, Dandoshaft, Hedgehog Pie, Wolfstone and many others out of England, Ireland, Scotland and Brittany that *included both bass and drums*.  I've still got shelves full of LPs of all this stuff, bought more or less when the stuff came out...... and,  *Nobody* was even calling _any_ of this stuff _"Celtic"_ until Alan Stivell came along and started using the term as a descriptive encompassing Ireland/Wales/Scotland/Brittany (to which you can also add the northwest Spanish regions of Galicia and Asturia)


True... havent seen 5 Hand Reel mentioned anywhere in a long time!! Loved them and have all their LPs, CDs and singles including the dire Reel Reggae which is where NOT to go with a folk band, even with bass and drums

Bass is a real bonus to an accompaniment, Clannad played one (an dord) and currently Breabach have one on their CD The Desperate Battle of the Birds to great effect. Its just an amplification of the Donal Lunny-like deep bouzouki accompaniment to tunes or songs. Many of the early English folk albums have bass - The Albion Band spring to mind, drums and all, but as for drums - unless as Mike says youre going all out for folk-rock type stuff stick to a light sympathetic beat; but remember many a ceili band used a snare drum back in the 50s and 60s!

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## DavidKOS

I saw a Spanish Celtic (Galician) band that had a piper, a guy on octave mandolin, a guy on flute/tabor and pipes, and a bassist.

They were quite good, and the bass was well integrated into the music. Of course this is not Irish-Scottish music but it is "Celtic"!

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## JeffD

> I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a history of kit drums in Céilí bands, or Highland bagpipe and drum marching bands.
> 
> What's at issue here, I think, is whether that tradition ever made it into what we think of as the trad tradition for ensemble folk-revival bands that was established by seminal groups like Planxty and the Bothy Band (and yes, the Chieftains), which might have had bodhran but never a set of kit drums.
> 
> And that led directly to the other established performance bands like Altan, Capercaillie, Lúnasa, Solas, Dervish, and the rest. All without kit drums, for a reason. The rhythm pulse is in the melody.


I am more sympathetic with your point than I am coming across (the internet seems to polarize conversation), but let me say this anyway: I hope that the musical traditions in which I participate predate the 1970s.

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## Colin Lindsay

> _Say the words:__
> 
> Not to beat on the drumkit;  that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?Not to play on the bass;  that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?Not to chop on the mandolin;  that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?Not to crawl on all-fours before sundown;  that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?Evil are the punishments of those who break the Law. ..... None escape.NONE ESCAPE!_


I used to be a member of another folk forum, until they started to flood it with posts like: should bodhrans be allowed at sessions… should guitars be allowed at sessions… should banjo players be allowed at sessions…

The finishing touch that made me realise how elitist, pretentious and far up their own orifices some of those posters were was in reply to the question on bodhrans: “If a bodhran turns up at my session I ask him to play the rhythm of a slip jig, and if he can’t, he’s asked to leave…”

God forbid I ever get THAT good on my own instruments that I can bar other musicians.  :Smile:

----------

DavidKOS

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## Bertram Henze

> If a bodhran turns up at my session I ask him to play the rhythm of a slip jig, and if he cant, hes asked to leave


That's an age-old idea:

_The Gileadites captured the fords of the Jordan opposite Ephraim. And it happened when any of the fugitives of Ephraim said, "Let me cross over," the men of Gilead would say to him, "Are you an Ephraimite?" If he said, "No," then they would say to him, "Say now, 'Shibboleth.'" But he said, "Sibboleth," for he could not pronounce it correctly. Then they seized him and slew him at the fords of the Jordan. Thus there fell at that time 42,000 of Ephraim._
(Judges 12:6)

Maybe that's why the streets outside the pubs are littered with bodhran players, sitting hunched over their instruments, weeping bitterly...  :Wink:

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## foldedpath

> Thats a wee bit selective a reading, pointedly so, when you consider Planxty -----> Moving Hearts


Of course it's selective, because this whole conversation can't be separated from one's personal taste in the various forms of this music. I like Planxty, and I don't care much for Moving Hearts or other groups that have gone into what I'd call an "easy listening" or smooth jazz direction with the music. In that respect, we could extend the progression above to:

Planxty -----> Moving Hearts -----> Riverdance -----> Celtic Women.

I ended the continuum where I did with groups like Lúnasa because that's where it ends for me, with bands that don't include synths and kit drums, and aren't aiming for a more crossover audience. Just a personal taste thing. Others will have different preferences.




> I am more sympathetic with your point than I am coming across (the internet seems to polarize conversation), but let me say this anyway: I hope that the musical traditions in which I participate predate the 1970s.


Same here, and I think that's reflected in the amateur session scene, where the instruments are, for the most part, the ones played before the 1960's-70's. You might see the occasional portable keyboard, but it's likely to be locked into piano mode and not doing Clannad synth pads. If there is a drum it will probably be a bodhran and not a kit. 

Performance bands will continue to experiment with new instruments and formats, which is great. Meanwhile the mainline tradition will stay alive in sessions and with solo players, while still continuing to evolve with tunes added from modern composers like Liz Carroll and Paddy Fahey. 

Drummers don't get to contribute to that particular form of traditional music evolution, because they don't write tunes. 
 :Smile:

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## foldedpath

> I used to be a member of another folk forum, until they started to flood it with posts like: should bodhrans be allowed at sessions should guitars be allowed at sessions should banjo players be allowed at sessions
> 
> The finishing touch that made me realise how elitist, pretentious and far up their own orifices some of those posters were was in reply to the question on bodhrans: If a bodhran turns up at my session I ask him to play the rhythm of a slip jig, and if he cant, hes asked to leave
> 
> God forbid I ever get THAT good on my own instruments that I can bar other musicians.


As a test before welcoming someone new to a session, that does sound elitist, although situations like that usually have some prior history behind them. The local sessions I'm familiar with are very welcoming to newcomers, even with odd instruments on an experimental basis. If it works, great. If not, you might be asked to sit out some tunes, or in rare cases encouraged to find a different session (that only happened twice that I know of, last time with a totally clueless banjo bass player).

There is another aspect of discussions like this, involving the dynamics of the hosting venue when it's a pub or restaurant session. That's different from a parking lot Bluegrass jam or an OldTime jam at a grange hall or church. There is a sort of quid pro quo between the session group and the pub owner. The session gets an area blocked out to play, and they sometimes get free drinks and food. The session group plays for themselves, not strictly a performance, but it's still light entertainment for the other customers. That's why the pub owner offers the space. It means there is an incentive not to suck completely, so the session doesn't get thrown out of the joint.
 :Smile: 

A pub session might be very welcoming to newcomers, even if they can't quite hang with the session speeds and repertoire, as long as they sit out tunes they're not ready for. But a player who actively and continuously disrupts the group might be asked to just not play at all, so they don't jeopardize the viability of the session. It's hard enough these days to find good places for pub and restaurant sessions, between owners freaked out about ASCAP/BMI regs and the ever-present sports on large TV screens. That's why some sessions can seem a bit overprotective of their music, I think.

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## mandocrucian

In that respect, we could extend the progression above to:

Irish Rovers ------> Oklahoma/Seven Brides For Seven Brothers -----> Riverdance -----> Celtic Women -------> "Bog People"/"Paddy's Irish Pub Nightmares" (Celtic reality TV, what a _concept!)._
- - - - - - 
At one time Sean O'Riada's Ceoltóirí Chualann, and The Chieftains (who had been involved in O'Riada's group) were _"radical"._ Using concepts of arrangement and presentation from classical chamber ensembles, the idea was to present an ethnically Irish equivalent.



> Wikipedia excerpt:
> Between 1961 and 1969 Ó Riada was leader of a group called Ceoltóirí Chualann. Although they played in concert halls dressed in black suits with white shirts and black bow ties, they played traditional songs and tunes. An ordinary céilidh band or show-band would have musicians who competed with each other to grab the attention of the audience. Ceoltóirí Chualann played sparse lucid arrangements. Ó Riada sat in the middle at front playing a harpsichord and a bodhrán, a hand-held frame-drum. This was an instrument that had almost died out, being played only by small boys in street parades. Ceilí bands generally had jazz-band drum-kits. Ó Riada also wanted to use the clarsach or wire-strung harp in the band, but as these were as yet unavailable, he played the harpsichord instead – in his opinion the nearest sound to a clarsach.[3] The harpsichord he used on a regular basis was made by Cathal Gannon. Unknown to Ó Riada, Irish folk music was being played ensemble-style in London pubs, but for most people of Ireland this was the first time they heard these tunes played by a band. For some, the membership of Ceoltóirí Chualann overlapped with that of The Chieftains. They recorded the soundtrack of the film _"Playboy of the Western World"_ (original play by John Millington Synge) in 1962. Their last public performance was in 1969, and issued as the album "Ó Riada Sa Gaiety".


At one time Irish (folk) music was strictly instrumental (1-3 or so instruments), or it was unaccompanied vocals.  The two didn't mix until the 60's with the guitar/singer  and those early groups like The Dubliners, The Johnstons,   It wasn't until Sweeney's Men that you had an "bouzouki" in the music, brought in by Johnny Moynihan. Planxty was continuation of Sweeney's. With Planxty and Bothy Band came the fusion of the Chieftains ensemble model with the American/Brit singer/guitar type bands.  Real *"traditional"!*  :Wink: 

So the previous decade's _"radical"_ becomes the new _"traditional"_ if enough people like what they heard.

(Mick Moloney traced the developmental strains of modern Irish music in an early column he did for *The Mandocrucian's Digest*)

Niles H

BTW: If you didn't recognize the _"Saying of the Laws"_ from a previous post, that's the animal-people creed from HG Wells' *"The Island Of Doctor Moreau"* _(are we not men?)_ with a few smartypants word substitutions.

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## Dagger Gordon

I dunno.  It seems to me that Scottish music has featured drums for as long as I remember.
Damn good drumming as well.  
This is the only video I could find of the great drummer Billy Thom, and I must say it is a rather charming wee film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXCBJm6NUOM

And when you look at the pipe band scene and the quality of their drumming, it seems to me undeniable that drumming (using sticks) has been a pretty fundamental part of Scottish traditional music for ages.

Just because folk bands in the 70s and 80s didn't use them much really doesn't change that.

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## foldedpath

> I dunno.  It seems to me that Scottish music has featured drums for as long as I remember.
> Damn good drumming as well.  
> This is the only video I could find of the great drummer Billy Thom, and I must say it is a rather charming wee film.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXCBJm6NUOM
> 
> And when you look at the pipe band scene and the quality of their drumming, it seems to me undeniable that drumming (using sticks) has been a pretty fundamental part of Scottish traditional music for ages.
> 
> Just because folk bands in the 70s and 80s didn't use them much really doesn't change that.


I don't think anyone is arguing that drumming is not a part of the Scottish traditional music scene. That would be silly. I might argue against the "fundamental" part though, because that suggests it's all-pervasive.

When friends gather to play a night of trad music in someone's kitchen, or a pub session, it isn't always guaranteed that a drummer will be there, or be considered essential to the music the way it is in a pipe band. The traditions of kitchen/pub sessions and marching bands are orthogonal to each other.

For example, the workshop my S.O. is at this week handles the groups separately, with fiddles and smallpipes/border pipes one week (no drummers), and GHB and marching drums the next week (tons 'o drummers). The informal nightly sessions just wouldn't mix between those groups, so they don't even try.

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## kmmando

Top Scottish dance band drummer Gus Millar ....

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## James Rankine

Some lovely scenes there Kevin in Linlithgow. I know it doesn't rain as much on the east coast as people think when they talk about the Scottish weather but it must still have been a worry having an outdoor Ceilidh (or was there an indoor backup option?).

I wonder if part of the popularity of the drum in Scottish ceilidh bands (apart from the pipe and drum tradition) is down to the quintessential ceilidh band instrument the piano accordion. It is quite difficult on this instrument to get a real rhythmic pulse from the melody line (I play it myself - though not particularly well). It's not impossible to do and there are some great players who can do this but you need to work hard with the right hand whereas the push pull of a button box gives the rhythmic pulse almost as a given. Also the use of the bass keys on the piano accordion can detract from the melody as the  driving rhythmic pulse. Most Irish button box players use the bass keys sparingly, if at all, and there was a cottage industry in modifying them to strip them of their thirds giving the unobtrusive modal drones favoured in Irish music. The manufacturers have cottoned on to this and you can now buy them without the thirds. Our ceilidh band has both piano accordion and button box players and the instruments, like all instruments, have there strengths and weaknesses.
I suppose what I'm coming to is that it is all down to different styles, musical traditions and the combination of instruments most commonly used for a particular style and the notion that there is some uniformity to "celtic music" (whatever that is) is ridiculous. Of course we will all have our own particular likes and dislikes and there is no right or wrong. For me there is no greater thing than a Scottish waltz played on the piano accordion - it can bring me to tears for the old homeland (though not when I'm playing it!).

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kmmando

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## JeffD

> So the previous decade's _"radical"_ becomes the new _"traditional"_ if enough people like what they heard.


I have the text of a letter from Appalachia circa a whole lot of years ago, bemoaning "those guitars with their frets" which were coming into the mountains polluting the purity of fiddle and fretless banjo. "telling us what notes we can play and what notes we can't."

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## Dagger Gordon

Hey Kevin,  
I don't know your fiddler Alison Smith.  Where does she come from?

I namechecked Gus Millar in post #15.  I figured you would be mentioning him sooner or later!

Happy new year, by the way!

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kmmando

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## Colin Lindsay

> - - - - - - 
> At one time Sean O'Riada's Ceoltóirí Chualann, and The Chieftains (who had been involved in O'Riada's group) were _"radical"._ Using concepts of arrangement and presentation from classical chamber ensembles, the idea was to present an ethnically Irish equivalent.


I played Sean ORiadas bodhran back in the 1980s, so theres a crisis: the great man himself wanting to go into a session, but having to stay outside crying as hes got a bodhran.

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## Beanzy

One thing that gets on my nerves is drummers using the cymbals all the time. It annoys me in jazz too. All that busy noodling along really grates after a while. I love when players know how to save up the sparkles for effect rather than turning the whole thing into some sequined cabaret act.

As for bass I'm a big Eoghan O'Neill fan. Rather than just using it as a rhythm instrument he uses it to create the topography on which the whole landscape rests.I love his use of fretless bass. I reckon bowed bass could be really tastefully incorporated too to make a canvass on which the other instruments draw. Like a good canvas it should remain unseen but will affect the overall quality and feel depending on how well it is made. As ever that gives a different construct from the other styles of music in the genres covered by the term celtic. Maybe we should call it La Tene music ? - sorry bad pun.

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## Dagger Gordon

http://www.yourepeat.com/watch/?v=EPiEUaxHvFw

Came across a clip of Deiseal using bass guitar.  I only remember them using double bass so this is quite interesting.
Unusual line-up of whistle, bouzouki and bass.
They later expanded to include sax and drums, but I didn't feel that line-up worked.
The original trio were great though.  Did you ever hear their version of Sheebeg sheemore?  Really nice.

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## M.Marmot

The danger here, as always, is in proscribing a very narrow and linear path of musical 'tradition' ... if we decide to exclude drums and brass, not because they were not historically proven to be used by musicians and enjoyed by audiences and dancers, but because it does not serve our thesis, then we can only be driven to a foregone conclusion. 

Likewise, to ignore the synth heavy music produced in the eighties and nineties, not because it did not stem directly from the tradition, but because it's not to our tastes, can only cause any exchange to shut down. (Also, on that note, may I include for discussion the use of 'clavinet', an electric piano by Tríona Ní Dhomhnaill in both The Bothy Band and Skara Brae?)

If we are discussing the historical use and development of music coming from a country or region then a retreat to 'taste' as a deciding factor cannot produce a growing discussion. Certainly, we can state that certain musics are not to our taste but it's a stretch to then take this prejudice and use it to expel those elements from the discussion.

Irish music did not develop in a hermetically sealed purity it has always been a music which grew through outside influence, through a dialogue with  continental, british, later american or diasporic music. It was a maritime hub and, as such, could not take a linear and single path in it's musical development. 

Similarly, if we take the onfolding processes of plantation and transplantation immmigration and emigrations of people to and from the island we would see that the idea of a homogenous pure and uniquely Irish expression is tenuous at best. Place upon that the martial history of the island which was both occupied, and through it's peoples participation in various empires, British, Spanish, French etc, and occupier we would see, yet again, yet another level of cross-fertilization.

On that note, we can also point to the history of a two-tiered society in Ireland that of the big house and the city, and that of the townland and the country (a third-level of intinerant communities can also be included). To see Irish music in reductive terms as that of the cottager-savante and the 'kittil' on the hob is to only see half the story. 

To ignore the traditions that carried through in the Big House, we would have to ignore the side of the history of those who sought to be align themselves with the modern and progressive, the European, the British and America. It would be too ignore those who fostered the baroque, the chamber pieces, those who attended Handel's premiere of the 'Messiah' oratorio, those who brought back home the fashions for high-society dances such as polkas; it would ignore those for whose comfort the uilleann pipes were developed, those who, and at one stage fostered the harping traditions. It would be to ignore the polite society who danced the quadrille to piano and who ould debate the relative quality of opera tenors over dinner, as depicted in Joyce's 'The Dead'. This was a high society who strove to be modern, sophisticated and cosmopolitan, and whose tastes fed back into society at every level. 

To ignore the traditions of the city, the ports, and the garrison towns, would also be to distort the island's musical inheritence. It would ignore the martial inheritence of marching bands (McNamara's Band) which proliferated throughout and who were intensely popular. These bands who trained musicians and brought new materials and trends to light. I would contend that these types of bands stem from the same strain as the famed ceillidh bands who were pictured earlier in this thread. It would also ignore the influence of the rise of ballad singers and pub sessions, which - to my knowledge - were an import of the folk movement and not at all an indigneous tradition, a fact reinforced by the Republic's punitive dance hall acts.

The irony of this, is that the romantic notions of 'traditions', traditional purity, and even the construct of a pan-Celtic nation, are, of course, themselves imports from the European enlightenment with it's focus on the untutored as being natural and the educated as being corrupted. In this light the only true Irish music would be parochial, insular and naive, anything spoiling this image should be removed from contemplation and is to fall into a sentimantalisation that Brian O'Nolan mocked in his novel 'An Bael Bocht'

'_In Corkadoragha, where every human being was sunk in poverty, we always regarded him as a recipient of alms and compassion. The gentlemen from Dublin who came in motors to inspect the paupers praised him for his Gaelic poverty and stated that they never saw anyone who appeared so truly Gaelic. One of the gentlemen broke a little bottle of water which Sitric had, because, said he, it spoiled the effect._'

It is this line of sentimentality, not synths, that lead us to the mawkish Celtic woman and Orinoco flow, just as it leads us to the stereotype 'Seven Drunken Nights' and 'The Titanic' steerage scene.

Two strands, progressive and conservative - it's always been this way and it's this tension that drives the music forth.

----------

Paul Kotapish

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## M.Marmot

And in answer to the original question: Bass guitar in celtic music - i have nothing against it. It will always be a question of who is playing the bass and how well they can interpret the music. 

Saying that, i take very little pleasure in drums in Celtic music as i feel it pronounces the beat to the detriment of space. 

Strangely, this is soomething that i percieve to be more present in scottish music - perhaps this is because Scottish music is more strongly connected to the dancehall and Irish music to the parlor? I don't know.

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## ald

Does anyone know of any bass guitar/mandolin duos playing Celtic music?

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## des

No bass guitar but plenty of drumming - funny when I think about "Celtic" music - as distinct from Irish and / or Scottish "traditional" music ( and indeed popular, dance, folk ... there's a very wide spectrum there) - I tend to think of the marching bands of Brittany, Galicia, Scotland and Ireland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja0uUuroAyo

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## des

Trying to embed Youtube footage of the Dingle Fife and Drum band

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLuG1tVfUH0

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## Bertram Henze

> to ignore the synth heavy music produced in the eighties and nineties, not because it did not stem directly from the tradition, but because it's not to our tastes, can only cause any exchange to shut down. (Also, on that note, may I include for discussion the use of 'clavinet', an electric piano by Tríona Ní Dhomhnaill in both The Bothy Band and Skara Brae?)


Triona's playing is what I was thinking of myself, and it never did any harm to the music of Bothy Band. I have my own live experience with such a space age instrument: in the mid-80s, when I was playing banjo in a session inside McDermott's, Doolin , Co. Clare, a young man with a suitcase entered, unpacked a synth keyboard, put it on a foldable stand and started chord-accompanying the tunes we played with an impressive feeling for the harmonies neccessary and harmonies far beyond. It was ethereal and fascinating, and it improved the music - everybody accepted him immediately. Again, it's the player.




> The irony of this, is that the romantic notions of 'traditions', traditional purity, and even the construct of a pan-Celtic nation, are, of course, themselves imports from the European enlightenment with it's focus on the untutored as being natural and the educated as being corrupted. In this light the only true Irish music would be parochial, insular and naive, anything spoiling this image should be removed from contemplation and is to fall into a sentimantalisation that Brian O'Nolan mocked in his novel 'An Bael Bocht'


Interestingly, romantic notions seem to be a highly individual and personal thing, everybody having his own authenticity dream. Even Irish musicians themselves are taking part in this. Take 5 minutes to read this funny episode about the flute player Seamus Tansey, noted for his difficult character (I am profoundly grateful for the pleasure of not having played with him in a session).

As for bodhrans, drums and cymbals: there is this historic video of Joe Cooley's last session, featuring a "bodhran" which is really a tambourine. Teaching us that you do the truly authentic Irish thing simply by just grabbing any object that happens to lie near you and play it.

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## M.Marmot

> Interestingly, romantic notions seem to be a highly individual and personal thing, everybody having his own authenticity dream. Even Irish musicians themselves are taking part in this. Take 5 minutes to read this funny episode about the flute player Seamus Tansey, noted for his difficult character (I am profoundly grateful for the pleasure of not having played with him in a session).
> 
> .


I just had an unexpected revelation from Mr. Tansey's letter. 

I once knew someone from up Sligo/Roscommon way and when something was bad she'd describe it as 'cat-malojin'. Having always caught the gist of it's meaning i never really questioned the phrase, but thanks to that letter I now realise she was saying 'cat melodeon'. 

Now, off i go to brew me some tay   :Coffee:

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## Colin Lindsay

> It is this line of sentimentality, not synths, that lead us to the mawkish Celtic woman and Orinoco flow, just as it leads us to the stereotype 'Seven Drunken Nights' and 'The Titanic' steerage scene.


That was Hollywood, that also gave us Braveheart.  :Whistling:

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## Bren

> That was Hollywood, that also gave us Braveheart.


To be fair, that steerage session in Titanic looked like fun.

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## Bertram Henze

> To be fair, that steerage session in Titanic looked like fun.


Yes, but they played Dennis Murphy's Polka  :Crying:  and they played it with that stop-time arrangement so often found in modern sessions  :Crying:  :Crying:

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## M.Marmot

> To be fair, that steerage session in Titanic looked like fun.


And they even had a big flaking drum aswell as a bodhran  :Disbelief:

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## Paul Kotapish

The bass on the OP's linked track sounded good to me, too. I love bass on pretty much everything, and generally welcome drums/percussion if it seems to enhance what the melody/lead instruments are going for with their music. 

That said, for my own listening preference for traditional Irish music, I tend to prefer a more stripped-down sound with minimal accompaniment most of the time, and if there is a bass in the mix, I'd rather hear a good acoustic stand-up bass.

For my money, the best bassist for pretty much anything/everything is Danny Thompson. He is a jazz player by instinct and inclination, but he has a tremendous feel for accompanying traditional songs and tunes. He was in Pentangle, toured/recorded with Richard Thompson (no relation), and has a discography of hundreds of recordings, including some wonderful sides with Shetland fiddler Aly Bain, Northumbrian piper/fiddler Kathryn Tickell, and a variety of Irish, Scottish, and American traditional musicians on the Transatlantic Sessions. Check him out.

http://www.therealdannythompson.co.uk/Discography.html 

M.Marmot seems to summarize the old dichotomy pretty well in his post above. Nothing wrong with adding electric bass and drums and--my own favorite--Souzaphone to the mix, but I'm really glad that there are a few purists out there keeping the traditional flame trimmed and burning bright.

----------

Dagger Gordon, 

M.Marmot

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## Bren

> Yes, but they played Dennis Murphy's Polka  and they played it with that stop-time arrangement so often found in modern sessions


You gets what you pays for.
They'd be playing seven-part pipe jigs up in comfort class.

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Bertram Henze

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## Beanzy

Anyone read The Drone News? .... goes well with your mornin cuppa..... great stuff

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M.Marmot

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## Bertram Henze

> Anyone read The Drone News? .... goes well with your mornin cuppa..... great stuff


There's some evil humor to be found  :Laughing:

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## M.Marmot

I've just been scanning through the posts here again and, maybe to address the original question / non question just a notch more than i've done - 

First, i'd have to agree with Roland Sturm that, if i'm not being misleading here, the recording as a whole, it's a bit middle of the road jazz. In fact, for myself, i can pinpoint to exactly which album this reminds me of 'Earl Klugh 'A Sudden Burst of Energy' ... or, more generally, ITV late night. It's pleasent enough, but it's got a big white line and cat's eyes ... right down the middle.

Second, I'd have to agree with Paul Kotapish, for me no one has done a better job of acompanying folk / trad on bass than Danny Thompson ... i don't know if there is a course which teaches 'Thompson's Specific' bass for these things, but, for me it'd be the brick and mortar of trad bass. 

Third, i think that (the) trad music (audience) has managed to paint itself into a wee bit of a corner in that it's more romantic elements don't often mix with those wishing to expand on the music's imprint. Often, folks balk when the spit and shine of a studio becomes too obvious on a production but i am adamant that a type of chamber classical/jazz/folk, as is heard on the ECM label, might provide the way forward for a certain strain of trad.

As i type, i'm listening to 'Buille' by Nial Vallely, and, though bassless and drumless (though not percussion less), does boast some fine piano and 'jazz' moments it's pretty progressive and, in my opinion, manages to skip the cat's eyes while managing keep a solid trad pedigree.

As such it avoids the snick of Mc Mahon's razor; it's progressive, cosmopolitan but still carries a parochial air with it - it's a hard edge to straddle, one, in my opinion, the original recording falls foul of. I can hear the jazz clubs ... i can't hear the parish bells.

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## Mike Anderson

> The danger here, as always, is in proscribing a very narrow and linear path of musical 'tradition' ... if we decide to exclude drums and brass, not because they were not historically proven to be used by musicians and enjoyed by audiences and dancers, but because it does not serve our thesis, then we can only be driven to a foregone conclusion. 
> 
> Likewise, to ignore the synth heavy music produced in the eighties and nineties, not because it did not stem directly from the tradition, but because it's not to our tastes, can only cause any exchange to shut down.


I buggered off out of this thread because I figured "well, I've offended enough members for one go" but - maybe not.  :Wink: 

Dagger, I consider you to be a splendidly admirable and deeply affecting musician who's obviously deeply steeped in the tradition - that's why I bought your album as soon as I'd viewed one Youtube video. Moreover, there's nothing _inherently_ wrong with the idea of drums (I have zero argument with bass) in trad music. I just didn't like that piece because of the drumming.

Now, when you start talking about heavy synths as with Clannad and later Capercaillie for example - ugh. The exchange from my end certainly does shut down. What some call progression seems to me like its very opposite: simplifying and to paraphrase Woody Allen, "flavor removal" of the music. There is nothing "narrow" about the tradition; people who find it narrow are perhaps (and understandably given the last half-century of Western musical culture) addicted to novelty for its own sake, which I consider to be an unfortunate, even crippling distraction from genuinely profound enjoyment as well as from actually learning the music. 

Anyway this has been a fascinating thread in so many ways. I saw a Youtube post today calling the music of Flook mechanical and boring, which runs exactly counter to my feelings about them. I guess we're just all wired differently and it never ceases to amaze me just how differently sometimes.  :Smile:  Good wishes to all here.

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## Dagger Gordon

Thanks for those kind words Mike.

From my point of view there is room for it all. Everybody's tastes are different, and indeed my own can vary a lot over time, mood etc.

So I would judge Padraig Rynne's Notify not so much as to whether it's as good as Flook;The Bothy Band;Kilfenora Ceilidh Band (or whoever you choose to compare them to) but as to whether it succeeds on its own terms and if I like it or not.  It seemed to me to be  pretty well done - atmospheric, good playing, altogether a very tight and subtle unit who featured the bass guitar in what I thought was a good example of not over-playing but adding to and shaping the music in a way which I think works rather well.

I certainly agree with the comments about Danny Thompson. As a long-term John Martyn fan I have listened to him a great deal over the years.  There seems to be an underlying suggestion here perhaps that the double bass is better suited to trad music than bass guitar?

As to the jazz element. I can see what you mean by that smooth late night thing, although I have to say that is a kind of jazz I have no interest in. I do agree with M.Marmot that the ECM label can often bring out some great music which has a strong regional identity, most notably perhaps their Scandinavian stuff.  Incidentally (and this is not anything to with mandolins or Celtic music) I love some of those early ECM albums by the Brazilian musician Egberto Gismonti.   But while I'm at it I have to say that I don't generally seem to enjoy Brazilian music much. Certainly it does have mandolins (usually bandolims actually), lots of good percussion, a very high standard of guitar playing etc but somehow seems to me to often have an over-smooth, middle of the road quality which doesn't do much for me at all.  (Talk about writing a whole genre of music off with one sweeping statement!)

If we want to talk about jazz with a strong regional identity, I find I enjoy the music of South African pianist Dollar Brand (aka Abdullah Ibrahim) more and more as I get older.

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## Ron McMillan

Getting back to the origins of the thread, I liked it a lot and thought that the bass played a valuable role. In the near-legendary folk sessions at The Lounge in Lerwick, Shetland, the only instrument ever run through an amp is the electric bass. And it needs that bit of bite to help keep in line massed fiddles, the occasional tenor banjo and the upright piano with the casings removed.

I am always irked by those who shiver at anything they consider 'untraditional'. Because your band doesn't have a bass (or a drummer) doesn't make your brand of music the only authentic one. The Scottish and Irish country dance bands whose music provides so much of the background and inspiration to later generations of musicians around the world, including bluegrass musicians, have been evolving for hundreds of years. Some with drummers and basses, some without. Nobody can claim originality or the 'right' way any more. Similarly, bluegrass traditionalists who pour scorn on people for daring to play without a central mic or with an electric guitar or without cowboy hats are so far from the mark it isn't true.

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## mandocrucian

> the ECM label can often bring out some great music which has a strong regional identity, most notably perhaps their Scandinavian stuff.


The Ale Moller/Lena Willemark _"Nordan"_ albums are wonderful folk/jazz fusions (more folk than jazz). I've got a lot of ECM discs of John Abercrombie, Jack DeJohnette. Ralph Towner .  There was one by a Norwegian bassist, Barre Phillips, called _Three Moon Day_ which was great. Dave Holland's _Conference of the Birds"_..... they put out lots of good stuff.

And that middle period Clannad stuff (_"Harry's Game"_, where they were no longer an acoustic trad band, but hadn't become a rock outfit.....I really liked it.

Danny Thompson is really good, but he doesn't have anything on Dave Pegg (in the folk-folk/rock area). Peggy's done some great stuff, both as a groove bassist, and as a melodic (almost an RT on bass) player.

There are as many ways to approach bass playing as there are guitar styles. Phil Lesh is as far away from Tommy Shannon (SRV) as he is from Bootsy Collins or Larry Graham.  

(The whole Irish DADGAD guitar playing isn't "traditional"...it dates from the same time period as when Moyhnihan brought in the bouzouki. In fact, you could, depending on your timeline say that even regular tuned guitar in Irish music isn't "traditional" either.

There's Ted Sturgeon's "Law": *90% of everything is crud.*  I would say that something that falls in the 80-90 percentile is "Crud", cause it still pretty good, but you can't go wrong by putting as much of the 10% cream-of-the-crop, of any genre in the sound system. I'd rather listen to Wayne Shorter than some mediocre folk or mediocre country or half-assed rock band or Kenny G.

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## Mike Anderson

"90% of everything is crud" sure as hell applies to the music industry and no mistake. Lucky for me I've understood for some time that I'm gonna die some day, so precisely 0% of my time is spent listening to mediocre music of any kind. 😊

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## Eddie Sheehy

Speaking of Kenny G....  He walks into an elevator and says: "Man, this place rocks"...

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## Bren

> Speaking of Kenny G....  He walks into an elevator and says: "Man, this place rocks"...


I don't know his music much, but I suspect I'd agree with Richard Thompson.

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## Paul Cowham

> John Joe Kelly does not play drum kit: he plays bodhran. He is Irish, and has made a huge contribution to developing technique and style on the bodhran.


I completely agree although John Joe (who has Irish roots and my understanding is he now spends much of his time there) grew up and has lived most of his life in Manchester, interestingly he also plays mandolin. His sister Grace is an incredible whistle and fiddle player too - I'm lucky enough to have played in sessions with both of them over the years.

Anyhow, I agree that with most sorts of music it is the musician not the instrument that is the most important thing - so if I'm at a trad gig then I'd rather see a really good tasteful drummer and/or bass guitarist than an average bohran player or double bassist. 

If people prefer their trad music without drums I'm certainly not going to argue, as others have said there is plenty of room for all tastes to be accommodated. Before the late 19th century traditional Irish music used mainly fiddle, flute, uillian pipes and whistle (didn't use the concertina or button accordian, the banjo, guitar, bouzouki) so there is certainly scope for the instruments associated with a tradition to change over time.

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## Dagger Gordon

This is Danny Thompson at his best, playing double bass with the late great Scottish musician John Martyn at what seems to have been a fantastic gig in Dublin.  Nearly an hour long video. 

Magic, really.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjRUR4AuV-A

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Paul Kotapish

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## DougC

> He gets a little wild with it... this is how I keep him interested in playing this stuff. Then we'll fall back out into the straight trad version to end it. We often joke about hearing the Trad Police sirens in the distance.


O.K. You two are under arrest! Hand over your instruments. Now.
Sherrif - County Hennepin, MN

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## foldedpath

> O.K. You two are under arrest! Hand over your instruments. Now.
> Sherrif - County Hennepin, MN


Heh... we're very careful which venues we do this in, and the car is parked right outside with the engine running. Come and get us, Trad Coppers!

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## Paul Kotapish

> Danny Thompson is really good, but he doesn't have anything on Dave Pegg (in the folk-folk/rock area). Peggy's done some great stuff, both as a groove bassist, and as a melodic (almost an RT on bass) player.


We'll have to cordially disagree on this one, Niles. Dave Pegg is amazing and exciting, and I agree that he can really play the hell out of traditional dance tunes on the bass guitar, but it's not an approach or a sound I'm much interested in hearing when I'm listening to Irish music. I will confess that I'm not all that wild about the whole Celtic-folk-rock thing in general, so put me in the stuffed-shirt camp. 

Huzzah for variety in taste and opinions!

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## mandocrucian

Ever hear Pegg on fretless? Sometimes I'd swear it was RT an octave or two lower.

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## kmmando

Hi James,

yes, there is a fall back indoor option, only used once out of 6 nights last summer, which was great. Mind you, it can be a bit cold and draughty in the old palace, but great fun, as the video hopefully communicates. Freeland Barbour is an absolute master at generating dunt in the melody, almost as if he is playing a diatonic button box.

And a good new year to you to Dagger! In February!! Alison Smith is a very highly regarded dance band fiddler, who played with us briefly 20 years or so back. She took a break from the band scene for quite a while, but expressed an interest in gigging with us again, if there were any slots. So this was her first gig, unrehearsed, just sight read by the way. Mairi Campbell remains our no. 1 fiddler, but its great to have such a quality fiddler around to stand in. She has a great solid dig in her playing, she is and has never been a folky fiddler, and really knows how to play fiddle for dance in a proper dance band.

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James Rankine

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## Jock

I grew up dancing in the village hall to the Incredible Fling Band (and others) the original line up of which featured "Big Dave Hardy" on bass, and it didn't do any of us much harm  :Wink:

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