# Octaves, Zouks, Citterns, Tenors and Electrics > CBOM >  Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

## Dustin

I am sure this topic has been brought up, but I am curious about whether to call my Irish bouzouki a bouzouki or octave mandolin.

I have a TC Irish bouzouki, strung with bouzouki strings (octave strings on the two lowest courses), but I use the octave mandolin tuning because the chord choices are more versatile and it is easier to play melodies for me in that tuning (though, the reach usually limits how fast I can play those melodies).

Well, do I still call it a zouk?

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## Steve Baker

Call it whatever you want. There are no rules, just lots of opinions.  :Wink: 

Steve
Several CBOM thingies

[QUOTE=Dustin;924166
Well, do I still call it a zouk?[/QUOTE]

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

You can most certainly call it a zouk.  I tend to user the terms differently based on the scale length of the instrument: If it's ~22/23" scale or higher, it's a zouk; shorter it's an OM. Get down to 17" or lower it's a mandola.  

But wait - there's also Octave Mandola and Tenor Mandola used amongst the European players.  I am at a loss as to what those mean  :Wink:

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## ptritz

> You can most certainly call it a zouk.  I tend to user the terms differently based on the scale length of the instrument: If it's ~22/23" scale or higher, it's a zouk; shorter it's an OM. Get down to 17" or lower it's a mandola.  
> 
> But wait - there's also Octave Mandola and Tenor Mandola used amongst the European players.  I am at a loss as to what those mean


 What the European folks would normally call an octave mandola is what's usually called an octave mandolin on this side of the pond - i.e., a GDAE critter with a scale around 21" to 23" or so.  What the European folks would normally call a tenor mandola is what would usually be called just a mandola on this side - i.e, a CGDA critter, with a scale usually somewhere around 15" to 17".  

Pete

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## Dustin

Cool! Thanks for the encouragement! There have been some situations I have been in were people want to know more about it. I say it is a bouzouki, but tell them that the Irish bouzouki's traditional tuning is GDAD, but some of us like the GDAE tuning for various reasons.

I just was curious what others outside of Oklahoma City thought of that  :Wink:

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## John McGann

Opinions here.

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## allenhopkins

I've gotta say that the term "Irish bouzouki" has always bothered me, sorta like the "Mexican pizza" Taco Bell sells.  A bouzouki is a bouzouki, with certain dimensions, stringing etc.  It comes from Greece, mainly, and in various forms and tunings is played around the eastern Mediterranean.  Irish musicians took Greek bouzoukis and strung them like octave mandolins; that doesn't make them "Irish."  Now many manufacturers are making longer and shorter-scale octave mandolins, and calling the longer-scale ones "bouzoukis."  They don't look all that much like the original Greek instrument -- most aren't bowl-backs -- and few of them get tuned the way Greek bouzoukis were generally tuned.

There seems to be a perceived need to differentiate between longer and shorter-scale octave mandolins, by calling some of them "bouzoukis."  I have a Flatiron OM that's labeled "bouzouki" inside, but I've never considered it to be anything other than an octave mandolin.

Now we're getting "Irish tenor banjos," by which the makers generally mean a shorter, 17-fret scale, as opposed to the 19-fret scale that became near-standard 75 years ago.  Why are they "Irish"?  Because some musicians use them to play Irish/Celtic music.  Not because they're made in Ireland, designed in Ireland, or exclusively played in Ireland.

I guess if you're marketing to Celtic/Irish music fans and players, the adjective "Irish" is a selling point.  However, to me a bouzouki is a bouzouki, an octave mandolin is an octave mandolin, and a short-scale tenor banjo has no ethnicity.

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## Jeff Budz

The difference between an Irish Bouzouki and an Ocatve Mandolin is where the body joins the neck.  The body on my Flatiron Bouzouki starts at the 18th fret, lets me play way up in mandolin range.  On my old TrinCo OM, the body started at 12 fret, made for a much shorter working area of the neck.  Of course the size of body and where it joins the neck contribute greatly to the sound qualities of the design.   

Greek Bouzouki has 3 courses, a pickup and plays through an amp w/ effects, has flowered pickguard, and is awesome!!.

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## John Flynn

Allen: I completely understand and appreciate your opinion on this, but I find "Irish Bouzouki" and "Irish Tenor Banjo" very useful terms. If I am looking to buy either kind of instrument, or looking for videos of them, or looking for instructional materials on them, I can put that term into a search engine and find more of what I'm looking for and less of what I'm not looking for. If I leave the term "Irish" out, the opposite happens and I get a lot of Greek stuff or a lot of Dixieland stuff. Nothing wrong with either of those, but they're not what I'm looking for. To my mind, that is what terminology is for, and those terms work well for me. I'm guessing they also work well for lots of other people, or they would have passed out of existence.

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## allenhopkins

John, not to disagree that it's a useful "shorthand," when what one is really looking for is not an "Irish bouzouki," but a long-scale octave mandolin; not an "Irish tenor banjo," but a short-scale tenor banjo.  I'm sure the terms will continue to be used, since, as you say, they're sort of the common vernacular.

I just Googled "Mexican pizza," and got a lot of hits there too.  Doesn't make it either Mexican, or a pizza, IMHO.

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## Graham McDonald

Alan, when is a long scale octave mandolin NOT an Irish bouzouki?  :Smile: 

Certainly the term has been in use for 30 years or more and in Irish music circles pretty well universally accepted, though I  should go back and look at some 70s record covers to track down when the Irish, as distinct from just plain, bouzouki first appeared. I have long had a vague suspicion that it might have started off as a bit of a joke:
"What do you have there?"
"An irish bouzouki"

but it took on a life of its own...

I do enjoy these discussions  :Smile: 

cheers

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## Theo W.

It's like calling Native Americans, Indians. People will do it, and people will think it's right on both sides of the argument! Even if it is only technically correct one way.

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## allenhopkins

> Alan, when is a long scale octave mandolin NOT an Irish bouzouki?


When it's neither Irish, nor a bouzouki!  You know, like the Holy Roman Empire, which was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire...

Probably it's a Chinese-made long-scale octave mandolin, quasi-similar in some ways to the Mediterranean bouzouki, but with a different body shape, different tuning, and mostly different playing technique.  As far as I understand it, "Irish bouzouki" refers to the fact that 30-40 years ago, some Irish musicians acquired Greek bouzoukis, and tuned them in fifths like mandolins, rather than in fourths/third as most Greek bouzouki players tuned their instruments.  This was pretty clearly where the current popularity of the octave mandolin began, as these re-tuned bouzoukis sounded really good, playing Celtic music.

So builders started making octave mandolins, mainly for the Celtic musicians, and made these instruments in a variety of scale lengths.  The longer-scale ones approached the scale length of the Greek bouzoukis, so were often called "bouzoukis" (like my Flatiron), but were intended for octave mandolin tuning (and usually weren't built with the bowl-back bodies and slotted headstocks of the Greek instruments); hence, "Irish bouzoukis."

Surely not a major issue, but it always struck me as odd that instruments that weren't particularly Irish in origin, and weren't constructed or tuned like the Mediterranean bouzoukis, would be called "Irish bouzoukis."  And I find the "Irish tenor banjo" equally oddly named, since the only thing "Irish" about it, is that _some,_ and not all, banjoists playing Irish/Celtic music, prefer the shorter-scale 17-fret models, and tune them like octave mandolins GDAE rather than like violas/mandolas CGDA, which is how the tenor banjo was usually tuned when it came out in the early 20th century.

I mean, you can call an instrument whatever; there are differences in terminology between America and Europe, where "mandola" may mean what we call an octave mandolin, and "tenor mandola" may mean what we call a mandola.  I just find the "Irish bouzouki" formulation a bit odd -- neither Irish, nor a bouzouki, really.

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## michaelpthompson

> It's like calling Native Americans, Indians. People will do it, and people will think it's right on both sides of the argument! Even if it is only technically correct one way.


I once knew a Lakota Sioux man who referred to himself as an Indian and felt it was the correct term, preferred over "Native American." He helped organize "Indian Pow-Wows." He's a proud member of an ancient tribe, and descended from one of the most influential holy men of the Sioux nation. Are you presuming to step in from the outside and say he's technically incorrect?

Terminology's a tricky thing. I've joked with people who play Irish music on a bouzouki because of the Greek origins of their instrument. But remember, violins and mandolins are Italian in origin, banjos came from what, Germany? Accordions aren't Irish, neither are guitars. Even Uilleann pipes are adaptations of an instrument that originally came from somewhere else. Tin whistles are played in nearly every culture on earth in some form or another, it's something that might develop independently from anywhere. Same with the transverse flute. The lap harp is probably the most distinctive Irish instrument, played at least as far back as Brian Boru a thousand years ago and likely before that, but the Milesians probably brought it with them from Northern France a thousand years or more before that.

The Irish over the centuries have demonstrated an amazing ability to absorb invaders and assimilate them into their culture. Apparently, they can do the same with their music.

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## michaelpthompson

> And I find the "Irish tenor banjo" equally oddly named, since the only thing "Irish" about it, is that _some,_ and not all, banjoists playing Irish/Celtic music, prefer the shorter-scale 17-fret models, and tune them like octave mandolins GDAE rather than like violas/mandolas CGDA, which is how the tenor banjo was usually tuned when it came out in the early 20th century.


I asked the same question in my local music store a couple of days ago when I saw "Irish tenor banjo" strings next to the "tenor banjo" strings. Apparently, the difference in tuning makes it more suitable for Irish music. Not terribly surprising, since our own beloved instrument has the same tuning, and sounds great in Irish music.

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## Bertram Henze

> Now we're getting "Irish tenor banjos," by which the makers generally mean a shorter, 17-fret scale, as opposed to the 19-fret scale that became near-standard 75 years ago.  Why are they "Irish"?  Because some musicians use them to play Irish/Celtic music.


From what I understand, not the TB is called Irish or not, but the tuning is called Irish if the tuning is GDAE, as opposed to the CGDA tuning used in Jazz/Dixieland (attention: minefield ahead - never tell a Jazz musician Dixieland is Jazz). That has no real practical background, of course - I have played Irish tunes on a CGDA TB for years.

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## Bruce Evans

> Terminology's a tricky thing. I've joked with people who play Irish music on a bouzouki because of the Greek origins of their instrument. But remember, violins and mandolins are Italian in origin, *banjos came from what, Germany?* Accordions aren't Irish, neither are guitars. Even Uilleann pipes are adaptations of an instrument that originally came from somewhere else. Tin whistles are played in nearly every culture on earth in some form or another, it's something that might develop independently from anywhere. Same with the transverse flute. The lap harp is probably the most distinctive Irish instrument, played at least as far back as Brian Boru a thousand years ago and likely before that, but the Milesians probably brought it with them from Northern France a thousand years or more before that.
> 
> The Irish over the centuries have demonstrated an amazing ability to absorb invaders and assimilate them into their culture. Apparently, they can do the same with their music.


Omigosh! Are you kidding? The banjo (banjar) was an African instrument which morphed from the gourd-drum configuration to the rim style in the United States and went back across the Atlantic to be tweeked into the "Irish" configuration. 

Other than that, I have been saying the same thing for several years to those who criticized my playing as non-traditional.

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## Ravenwood

> Other than that, I have been saying the same thing for several years to those who criticized my playing as non-traditional.


Amen to the idea that terminology is a tricky thing. Bruce, I listened to your playing several years ago at the dulcimer festival in Evart and thought it quite traditional (and excellent - for those who haven't had the pleasure). It really all depends on how you see the tradition, which also speaks to John Flynn's well made point. If the terminology is commonly accepted and useful in communicating an idea, then it must be ok to use it.

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## Bertram Henze

> I have played Irish tunes on a CGDA TB for years.


I would like to add that the TB was made in Japan and that I put a small sticker on the headstock which I had peeled off some souvenir I bought in Galway, saying "Guaranteed Irish"  :Grin:

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## michaelpthompson

> Omigosh! Are you kidding? The banjo (banjar) was an African instrument which morphed from the gourd-drum configuration to the rim style in the United States and went back across the Atlantic to be tweeked into the "Irish" configuration.


Thanks for the clarification Bruce. Still maintains my point that precious few, if any, of the "traditional" Irish instruments originated in Ireland.

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## bertiebeetle

> Certainly the term has been in use for 30 years or more and in Irish music circles pretty well universally accepted, though I  should go back and look at some 70s record covers to track down when the Irish, as distinct from just plain, bouzouki first appeared. I have long had a vague suspicion that it might have started off as a bit of a joke:
> "What do you have there?"
> "An irish bouzouki"


But does it count if you have actually played Greek music on your Irish bouzouki!?

Hello Graham McDonald if youre still reading, who I must thank for introducing me to the 10 string variety of the what do you call that? These days I play a long-scale cittern-bouzouki (whatever it is, its definitely not an octave mandolin, and as for cittern, theres another terminological can of worms!), and I was always under the impression that the term OM was adopted more-so in the US because of your rich and varied musical traditions in the mandolin department.

Whereas here in OZ, & I suspect in the UK & Ireland, the term octave mandolin is rarely heard. Call it a conspiracy of luthiers, but if its good enough for Messrs Lunny and Irvine to call it a bouzouki, thats good enough for me.

Cheers - Bertie

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## Dustin

mmmmmmmm Mexican pizza! :-d

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## Dustin

> When it's neither Irish, nor a bouzouki!  You know, like the Holy Roman Empire, which was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire...


The "English concertina" is still considered the English Concertina, even if your model was made in China (just to compare, btw). 

So Allen, I do need to ask because I don't think you were clear on what you think I should call the Trinity College "Irish bouzouki" that is tuned like an octave mandolin with the two lowest notes still octaves (other than a "hunk of junk" compared to the awesomeness of a Flatiron  :Wink:  ?

And thanks, btw, I am craving taco bell!

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## allenhopkins

Dustin, I still like "Mexican pizza," and I'd call your "Irish bouzouki" an octave mandolin, perhaps a long-scale octave mandolin, but of course you may call it Omar or Thor's Hammer or whatever strikes your fancy.  "Irish bouzouki" has become an accepted term, and as pointed out above, if you call it that most CBOM people will know what you're talking about.

Most instruments played in Euro-American music have been cross-pollinated from other countries and cultures.  As far as concertinas are concerned, the adjective "English" doesn't refer to country of origin (though all my three Wheatstones were made in London): it refers to the "English system" when the two reeds controlled by a single button, one when the bellows is opened, one when it's squeezed closed and the airflow direction is reversed, are of the same pitch.  Contrasting is the "Anglo" system (which, of course, means nearly the same as "English" and is short for "Anglo-German," I believe), where the two reeds (usually) have different pitches, so you get one note when you pull the bellows open, and another when you squeeze it closed, pushing on a single button.  English concertinas are chromatic, Anglo concertinas diatonic -- pretty much; that's about as far as I would go into concertina stuff.

Didn't want to sound crochety; "Irish bouzouki" has become a term in general use, just as "Dobro" refers now to any resonator guitar, including those not made by the Dobro division of Gibson, and "Autoharp," though still a registered trademark of Oscar Schmidt, is used for chord zither instruments made by a variety of makers.  "Irish tenor banjo" is on the way to being a general term for a short-scale instrument tuned GDAE.  And what's Jewish about the Jew's harp?  I sure don't know.

But it does tickle me a bit to hear long-scale octave mandolins called "Irish bouzoukis," when IMHO they're neither.  Just me.

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## Dustin

darn it! I thought I was clever with the concertina example! You actually know more than I do on that subject too!  :Wink: 

I am just trying to figure out a way to talk about the instruments to fit the short attention span of kids, yet try and be educational about it (since that is why my friend wanted us to play for the kids at her Celtic Camp). Since Irish music is constantly evolving, I have no problems calling it on octave mandolin or a bouzouki. In fact, I guess in the history of instruments, this is still really new (as opposed to the mandolin).

Man, I love this discussion!

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## foldedpath

> Didn't want to sound crochety; "Irish bouzouki" has become a term in general use, just as "Dobro" refers now to any resonator guitar, including those not made by the Dobro division of Gibson, and "Autoharp," though still a registered trademark of Oscar Schmidt, is used for chord zither instruments made by a variety of makers.


(begin pedant) Dobro refers to any _spider bridge_ resonator guitar. No self-respecting owner of a biscuit bridge resonator guitar, National or other brand, would call it a Dobro. (/end pedant) 
 :Grin:  

BTW, I share your feelings about short-scale "bouzoukis," but that whole middle zone of instruments that are neither clearly a bouzouki or clearly a Gibson-style octave mandolin is filled with hybrids anyway.

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## Graham McDonald

Hello Bertie,

I totally agree that if Irvine, Lunny and Moynihan all call it a bouzouki its good enough for me.  :Smile: 

Greek music can work fine on an Irish bouzouki. A few years back a very tasty Greek rembetika band came to our National Folk Festival here in Canberra, and their lead bouzouki player's three course Dad tuned bouzouki got trashed by the airline. I lent them one of mine for the festival (a four course GDad tuned flatback) which they played for all their gigs, making lots of delightfully rude remarks about Irish bouzoukis in the process.

cheers

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## michaelpthompson

> And what's Jewish about the Jew's harp?  I sure don't know.


Strangely enough, I play Jew's Harp too. It's got nothing to do with Jewish people. Comes from the French Trompe Jeu, or child's trump. Jeu means young person, it doesn't refer to a Jewish person.

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## allenhopkins

> ...(begin pedant) Dobro refers to any _spider bridge_ resonator guitar. No self-respecting owner of a biscuit bridge resonator guitar, National or other brand, would call it a Dobro. (/end pedant...BTW, I share your feelings about short-scale "bouzoukis," but that whole middle zone of instruments that are neither clearly a bouzouki or clearly a Gibson-style octave mandolin is filled with hybrids anyway.


Well, you are definitely right about the difference between the spider-bridge-concave-cone design of the Dobro, and the biscuit-bridge-convex-cone design of the National.  Yet, search for "Dobro" on eBay, and what's the first guitar that pops up?  How about a *"Recording King..Tricone Metal Body Dobro Guitar"*?  I mean, a _Tricone_ "Dobro"?  What has happened, is that in common (or _uninformed_) parlance, any guitar with a resonator is a "Dobro," even a National.

And I have no problem calling octave mandolins, "octave mandolins," whatever scale length they have.  To me, a bouzouki is quite a different instrument, in terms of construction and tuning.  But that's a definite minority position; long-scale OM's are called "Irish bouzoukis," and that big flat tortilla with refritos, ground beef, tomatoes and onions is a "Mexican pizza," and I keep my snarky reservations pretty much unexpressed.  Except here.

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## Kyle Baker

What about the fact that GDAD is a tuning widely used by flat backed BOUZOUKI players, and not usually by octave mandolin players. I know some people will play GDAD on their octave mandolins, but most don't. I would say if you are playing a "long scaled octave mandolin" as you call it, but have it tuned GDAD, this is what makes it an "Irish bouzouki". The scale, tuning, AND playing style.
And I have to agree with the others that stated that if the term bouzouki is good enough for Lunny, Irvine, and Moynihan, then it's good enough for me. 
Also, I haven't seen these Mexican pizzas before, but they're probably pretty tasty  :Smile:

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## Eddie Sheehy

No, I'm sorry.  You are going to have come up with a new name and register it with the CBOM Police.  You may not play it in public until you receive your permit from them.

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## bertiebeetle

> What about the fact that GDAD is a tuning widely used by flat backed BOUZOUKI players, and not usually by octave mandolin players. I know some people will play GDAD on their octave mandolins, but most don't. I would say if you are playing a "long scaled octave mandolin" as you call it, but have it tuned GDAD, this is what makes it an "Irish bouzouki". The scale, tuning, AND playing style.


I think you've hit the nail on the head, Kyle. Seems if you call it an OM, you probably are playing, and tuning, your instrument like, well, a big mandolin. More of a melody player, more tunes.

We bouzouki players might not only tune differently, but play differently. As much an accompanying instrument with all it's jangly, chordal, contrapuntal, droning possibilities as a melody instrument.

OK - gross generalization ends now. Shoot me down in flames.

Bertie

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## John McGann

> I think you've hit the nail on the head, Kyle. Seems if you call it an OM, you probably are playing, and tuning, your instrument like, well, a big mandolin. More of a melody player, more tunes.
> 
> We bouzouki players might not only tune differently, but play differently. As much an accompanying instrument with all it's jangly, chordal, contrapuntal, droning possibilities as a melody instrument.
> 
> OK - gross generalization ends now. Shoot me down in flames.
> 
> Bertie


That sounds about right- in my experience, it seems most bouzouki (long scale) players either tune 'modally' and/or don't play a lot of melody or improvise much other than backing, unless using a capo and effectively shortening the scale length; OM (shorter scale) lends itself a bit more to both melodic playing and accompaniment, because on the whole, the instrument is more playable, from a left hand perspective that allows you to not to hurt yourself in GDAE tuning.

I couldn't dream of doing what I do (whatever the heck that is) on a 25" scale GDAE instrument. I'd love to have that extra clarity and resonance that scale brings, but I can live with what I have pretty well (I love the Sobell OM sound).

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## steve V. johnson

1)  You can call it a bouzouki if you produce a valid birth certificate for it.  

2)  When you have that instrument in an airport, NEVER say it's a bouzouki.

stv

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## BlueMt.

Things get even murkier when you play a long scale, 5 course instrument, tuned DGDAD.  Is it a 5 course Irish bouzouki or a cittern or something else?  Maybe a cittzouki or bouttern?  :Wink:

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## zoukboy

I agree pretty much with Kyle, Bertie, and John, but I'll just add that most of us would probably agree that objecting to the name "guitar" used for steel string acoustic, electric, and resophonic guitars would be ludicrous, but that is essentially what the "Irish bouzouki is not really a bouzouki" argument is.

Similarly, the "Spanish" guitar was transformed in the US in the late 19th C. with steel strings (not the first metal strung guitars in history, but the most viable and successful take on the idea, for sure).  This led to the invention of resophonic guitars and then the electrification of the steel-strung acoustic instrument, and eventually the solid body electric guitar.

Now I am sure that there were some Spaniards who objected to this process (Segovia famously condemned the electric guitar as an "abomination") but with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight that now seems very quaint to us moderns, don't it?

And it's interesting that about the only thing uniting all the different iterations of the guitar is its tuning, so I think the argument that GDAD makes it an "Irish" bouzouki is a sound one.  Tunings are a way of thinking, too, and I think Johnny Moynihan's innovation of the Irish bouzouki tuning is what made the expression of a new instrumental concept within Irish trad/folk music possible.

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## Bertram Henze

> I think the argument that GDAD makes it an "Irish" bouzouki is a sound one.  Tunings are a way of thinking, too, and I think Johnny Moynihan's innovation of the Irish bouzouki tuning is what made the expression of a new instrumental concept within Irish trad/folk music possible.


Still, this leaves unexplained examples and exceptions, such as Andy Irvine who tunes everything in GDAD (or CGDG or whatever), even mandolins - if you can still call them mandolins.

I guess names only make sense as long as there's standardized classes those names stand for. In the CBOM world, it would be better to have codes that contain information on scale length, body style, stringing and tuning, as in "I left my 25-A-cCgGddaadd at home tonight". Plus, for convenience, electronic tuners should be programmable to show the current instrument code at all times in bright LED letters, thus avoiding the need for answering questions and providing a reason for leaving the tuner clipped-on at all times.

Or, following the Spanish guitar/electric guitar line of history, we might give in to what audience knew all the time and call them all "guitars".

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## zoukboy

> Still, this leaves unexplained examples and exceptions, such as Andy Irvine who tunes everything in GDAD (or CGDG or whatever), even mandolins - if you can still call them mandolins.
> 
> I guess names only make sense as long as there's standardized classes those names stand for. In the CBOM world, it would be better to have codes that contain information on scale length, body style, stringing and tuning, as in "I left my 25-A-cCgGddaadd at home tonight". Plus, for convenience, electronic tuners should be programmable to show the current instrument code at all times in bright LED letters, thus avoiding the need for answering questions and providing a reason for leaving the tuner clipped-on at all times.
> 
> Or, following the Spanish guitar/electric guitar line of history, we might give in to what audience knew all the time and call them all "guitars".


Personally I like the ambiguity and the fact that because the instrument is not standardized builders feel free to keep interpreting the relatively open concept as the please.  In a world dominated by Gibson and Martin copies (not that there is anything wrong with those) the variety is refreshing.

The only time that ambiguity seems to be a problem is in discussions on forums like this...

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## Kyle Baker

I'm guilty like Andy Irvine... I own 2 zouks, a tenor banjo and a mandolin... all are tuned GDAD. Also, one zouk is a long scale trinity college, and my other has the same scale length as an acoustic guitar.
I'm too lazy to learn to play GDAE after already learning GDAD.

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## Rob Meyer

I've been lurking here awhile and finally I am posting. I thought I was the only one who tuned everything (OM, tenor banjo, zouk) GDAD! Like Kyle, I just can't be bothered to learn play GDAE and I find that GDAD works fine for both melody and chords.

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## Bertram Henze

> Like Kyle, I just can't be bothered to learn play GDAE and I find that GDAD works fine for both melody and chords.


There's nothing wrong with that. Player + instrument must work as a whole.

I learned to play violin as a first instrument, so GDAE is forever burned into my brain. If I got a long-scale zouk, I'd probably tune it GDAE as well. And I could even argue that this way I would maintain transposability across strings and save on capo usage (lame excuse though, isn't it?).

Never touch a running system.

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## Eddie Sheehy

I use GDAD on my zouk and GDAE on my OM - that's basically the only reason I have for keeping both instruments - even though the scales differ by 4 inches...  But to each his own.  Once Johnny "invented" the Irish Zouk from the Greek zouk - which was "invented" from a Turkish saz/baglama, then it was only a matter of time and license before tuning/string-configuration/shape allowed for new names - an instrument by any other name would sound as sweet...(Eddie Shakespeare - Will's cousin)

Vive la Difference

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## Dustin

I had tried out the GDAD tuning for a while and loved the sound of the chords. Since I usually don't play melodies very fast, it did not matter if it slowed me down. The problem I ran into was that since I am the replacement for the guitar, it thins things out if you just play double stops instead of a full chord. Some of the modern music we play uses some very difficult chords and I was getting tired of the capo.

Since I had already played mandolin before this, it was just easier to go back to the more versatile GDAE tuning (at least more for me). I figured out how to play all the main chords without the thirds to get that "Irish bouzouki" sound for most songs, but it does not always sounds as good.

But, now that I am getting my hands on a guitar... I might switch back to the GDAD tuning.....

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## Talabardio

Call it whatever you like... If you don't play Irish music, 'Irish bouzouki' isn't a real fun thing to call your instrument, so I never have.

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## zoukboy

> Call it whatever you like... If you don't play Irish music, 'Irish bouzouki' isn't a real fun thing to call your instrument, so I never have.


Well, maybe it's not "real fun" if you don't care about the history of the instrument...

"Irish"  + "bouzouki" completely covers the origin of the instrument and also honors the fact that if the Greek bouzouki had not been brought into Irish music in the late 60s/early 70s we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

But it is probably inevitable that other names will come and go, used by people with agendas that don't include Irish trad music.

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## allenhopkins

> ..."Irish"  + "bouzouki" completely covers the origin of the instrument and also honors the fact that if the Greek bouzouki had not been brought into Irish music in the late 60s/early 70s we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.  But it is probably inevitable that other names will come and go, used by people with agendas that don't include Irish trad music.


Guess the point I'd try to make, is that playing Irish/Celtic music on a bouzouki, whether from Greece or elsewhere, is a bit different from building an octave mandolin with a longer scale, and calling it an "Irish bouzouki."  Because a bouzouki isn't really an octave mandolin, although Irish players tuned it like one.

The great LA session guitarist Tommy Tedesco, called "the most recorded guitarist in history," owned a collection of dozens of stringed instruments -- all of which he tuned like a guitar, so he didn't need to learn different chord shapes and between-string intervals.  (I assume "like a guitar" meant _relative_ string pitches, 4ths and a 3rd, rather than _absolute_ pitches.)  These re-tunings did not create a series of new instruments.  Tuning a bouzouki GDAE did not create a new instrument, the "Irish bouzouki."  Perhaps it was a "bouzouki in Irish tuning."  The subsequent GDAE instruments being built in the last 30 years are, IMHO, octave mandolins of different scale lengths.

But I understand that mine is a minority position, and that usage has implanted "Irish bouzouki" in the musical vocabulary.  I still think it's a "Mexican pizza."

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## zoukboy

> a bouzouki isn't really an octave mandolin, although Irish players tuned it like one.


Actually they didn't.  Almost no one in Ireland uses GDAE on bouzouki.




> Tuning a bouzouki GDAE did not create a new instrument, the "Irish bouzouki."  Perhaps it was a "bouzouki in Irish tuning."  The subsequent GDAE instruments being built in the last 30 years are, IMHO, octave mandolins of different scale lengths.


Here again, GDAE and "Irish bouzouki" are being associated when GDAD is almost universal.  There is a tendency among some players here in the States towards GDAE but I think that is attributable to their experience with mandolin or tenor banjo and their desire to "retain" a tuning they already know (I see this a lot in workshops).  

But it does seem that there is something of an octave mando movement in the US that is completely independent from Irish trad music and the bouzouki.  Maybe John McGann will chime in here  :-)

At any rate, it makes sense to call a medium scale instrument tuned GDAE and which is played with a mandolin sensibility an "Octave Mandolin," just as it makes sense to call a dissimilarly tuned and played instrument with (usually) a longer scale length an Irish bouzouki if the context warrants it.  

And there you have it: discussions such as this one usually attempt to resolve an issue irrespective of the contexts in which either side of a disparity makes sense.  I don't think there is a whole lot to be gained from that.

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## Theo W.

> I once knew a Lakota Sioux man who referred to himself as an Indian and felt it was the correct term, preferred over "Native American." He helped organize "Indian Pow-Wows." He's a proud member of an ancient tribe, and descended from one of the most influential holy men of the Sioux nation. Are you presuming to step in from the outside and say he's technically incorrect?


Yes I am. I personally think he's right. You should always be called what you want to be called out whether it be Indian, Native American, White, Black, American, British etc. But geographically an Indian is a Native American. The term Indian just cones from Columbus having no idea where he was. But as I said, everyone should be called what they want to be.

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## Graham McDonald

The part of this discussion which no-one has looked at is the origin of the mid-scale length (20-23") octave mandolin. While there have been what the Europeans would call an octave mandola around probably since the 1880s, with a short 17-18" scale, and Regal Octophones in the 1920s, and then tenor guitars from the 20s onwards, the modern octave mandolin I suspect is a product of the 1970s, made for people who wanted a four course Irish bouzouki type instrument, but found the scale length a bit intimidating and/or wanted to play more melodically.

I would be pleased to be proved wrong here, but in all the research I have been doing on mandolin family history, mid length OMs didn't really appear until after the Irish bouzouki. I have a pic from Rich Westerman of Charlie Piggot and Alec Finn from around 1978, with Piggot holding one of Rich's OMs

As an interesting aside, I have some pics of Johnny Moynihan's original Irish bouzouki with a tape measure next to it. It has a scale length of over 29"!

cheers

graham

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## Dagger Gordon

I'm really not sure that changing the tuning of an instrument could merit calling it by a different name - although I do follow the logic of that.

After all, some people play in lots of different guitar tunings.  A guitar is not suddenly going to be an 'Irish' guitar if it gets tuned to DADGAD, for example,  It's still a guitar.

In my case I bought an instrument from Stefan Sobell in the 1980s which I'm pretty sure was sold to me as an '8 string cittern'.  In the intervening years, it seems that the word 'cittern' has come to mean an octave type of instrument which has ten strings rather than eight, but out of habit I still tend to call it my cittern.

I have always tuned it ADae, which is clearly a variation of (octave) mandolin tuning.  The same could also be said for the tuning GDAD.  
I have a Gold Tone octave mandolin which I also tune to Adae, but which I often retune to GDae if I lend them to any of my students, who often already play fiddle and are more comfortable with that.  Incidentally, fiddles sometimes get retuned, but they're still called fiddles.

In my view, all of these four course instruments tuned to GDae (or its variants like GDad or ADae)  are obviously octave mandolins.  They are tuned basically like a mandolin but pitched an octave below.

On the other hand, what Alec Finn plays is definitely a bouzouki.  It LOOKS like a bouzouki, doesn't have eight strings like an octave mandolin and is being used to play Irish music.  What he does with it is what I would call 'Irish bouzouki'.

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## Bertram Henze

> The part of this discussion which no-one has looked at is the origin of the mid-scale length (20-23") octave mandolin. While there have been what the Europeans would call an octave mandola around probably since the 1880s, with a short 17-18" scale,


Actually , the 20-23" OM is what is called an octave mandola in the UK (my 21" OM is definitely being called that by Fylde).

It seems that, with its high variation of scale length, tuning and number of strings, this instrument family resembles mutations of a virus, which makes it so hard to get a vaccine against OMAS  :Laughing:

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## Graham McDonald

> Actually, the 20-23" OM is what is called an octave mandola in the UK (my 21" OM is definitely being called that by Fylde).


I was thinking more of the mandolin orchestra instruments, who I suspect started using the term octave mandola (as distinct from tenor mandola in viola tuning) well before Fylde. I think everyone agrees that no-one is ever going to sort out that bit of trans-Atlantic confusion  :Smile: 

I'm in the middle of trying to write a history of the blasted things, and I am sure that there will be those I offend in some way.

cheers

graham

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## Kyle Baker

> On the other hand, what Alec Finn plays is definitely a bouzouki.  It LOOKS like a bouzouki, doesn't have eight strings like an octave mandolin and is being used to play Irish music.  What he does with it is what I would call 'Irish bouzouki'.


The bouzouki that Alec Finn plays is definitely Greek, there's no debating since he always stayed with a bowl back. His zouk is an older-style trixordo three course (six string) instruments tuned DAD. DAD is the original Greek tuning for this instrument. Therefor, you might think that a flat back instrument with DAD in the tuning, such as GDAD or ADAD, is almost close enough to warrant the name "Bouzouki".  The term "flat-back bouzouki" would be better to describe the modified instrument.
I think bouzouki players and Octave mandolin players will have to agree to disagree on this topic since I can't see anyone willing to change their minds on the issue. 
All I know is I play the bouzouki, and GDAD is all I know. My father plays the octave mandolin since he played mandolin before he went to the longer scale. Call whatever you play whatever you like, in the end that's all that matters.

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## zoukboy

I would just like to add, in response to Dagger's comments, that interestingly enough, the "Irish" GDAD tuning really has nothing to do with the octave mandolin as there weren't any such critters around when the Irish bouzouki was adapted/invented in the early 70s.  

The tuning comes from Johnny Moynihan's altered mandolin tuning, which he transferred to the Greek bouzouki he traded said mandolin for in the late 60s while he was a member of Sweeney's Men (with Andy Irvine and Joe Dolan).

And the first "Irish" bouzoukis (built specifically for Irish music) were definitely coming off the inspiration of the Greek instrument's use in Irish music.  The person to ask about that would be Peter Abnett, who built the first one for Donal Lunny in 1970.

Kyle's comment that GDAD includes the Greek trichordo tuning is right on, and is one of the reasons why the Greek/Irish bouzouki connection is stronger than it might appear.

Incidentally there is now a bit of a growing trend toward using the Greek trichordo bouzoukis in Irish music.  For years the only highly visible person doing so was Alec Finn (who, incidentally is the Guest Artist at ZoukFest in a few weeks), but now there are several players, Mick Conneely and Ruairi McGorman among them, who, no doubt due primarily to Alec's influence, prefer the 3 course Greek instrument.

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## Dagger Gordon

Yes I suppose that's right, Roger.

I can see that the DAD part of the Irish bouzouki GDad tuning is indeed very close.  
At the same time it is not far off mandolin tuning an octave down, so I'm really not sure I know what to say.

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## foldedpath

> The part of this discussion which no-one has looked at is the origin of the mid-scale length (20-23") octave mandolin. While there have been what the Europeans would call an octave mandola around probably since the 1880s, with a short 17-18" scale, and Regal Octophones in the 1920s, and then tenor guitars from the 20s onwards, the modern octave mandolin I suspect is a product of the 1970s, made for people who wanted a four course Irish bouzouki type instrument, but found the scale length a bit intimidating and/or wanted to play more melodically.


The "modern octave mandolin" probably does date from the 70's, or maybe 80's, with companies like Flatiron and Weber making intermediate-size instruments between mandolas and mandocellos. I'm not sure they were actually satisfying an existing market, so much as doing it because it was a fun project, and the companies were small enough to play around with some ideas and see if people were interested. I'd love to know more about the history of that, if anyone can dig it up.

However, any history of the "octave mandolin" still has to account for that one existing (as far as we know) example of a Gibson octave mandolin from 1904, mentioned in an earlier thread here. I guess we still don't know if it's a one-off custom order, or an experiment to test the waters, or if more than one was ever built. Either way, at least _someone_ on the American side of the pond was thinking about the utility of this shorter-scale (21 1/4") neck on a body sized larger than a mandola and smaller than a 'cello. And with a carved archtop too! Because that was the tone the American players (mostly classical?) at the time were shooting for, whether it was a mandolin, mandola, or mandocello. 

As I said earlier in the thread, and this is just my opinion; anything that looks derived from the "big Gibson mandolin" concept seems to be pretty clearly an octave mandolin, without that direct lineage from the Greek bouzouki. Anything with the longer scale, flat top and overall build of a Greek bouzouki (minus the bowl back) seems pretty clearly to be a generic "bouzouki," to me anyway, and regardless of tuning. It's the hybrids in the middle, which can show any combination of the two ends of that spectrum -- carved archtops, flat tops, long scales, short scales, oval holes or F-holes -- that can get a bit muddled in terminology, and are probably best left up to the owners to describe what they are.

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## zoukboy

> As I said earlier in the thread, and this is just my opinion; anything that looks derived from the "big Gibson mandolin" concept seems to be pretty clearly an octave mandolin, without that direct lineage from the Greek bouzouki. Anything with the longer scale, flat top and overall build of a Greek bouzouki (minus the bowl back) seems pretty clearly to be a generic "bouzouki," to me anyway, and regardless of tuning. It's the hybrids in the middle, which can show any combination of the two ends of that spectrum -- carved archtops, flat tops, long scales, short scales, oval holes or F-holes -- that can get a bit muddled in terminology, and are probably best left up to the owners to describe what they are.


I think that is a pretty succinct way of putting it if restricting the discussion to the features of the instrument, rather than musical context or technique.  I do see a very clear difference between a mandolin approach and a bouzouki approach, and the two tunings have everything to do with that.

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## Graham McDonald

> The "modern octave mandolin" probably does date from the 70's, or maybe 80's, with companies like Flatiron and Weber making intermediate-size instruments between mandolas and mandocellos. I'm not sure they were actually satisfying an existing market, so much as doing it because it was a fun project, and the companies were small enough to play around with some ideas and see if people were interested. I'd love to know more about the history of that, if anyone can dig it up.
> 
> However, any history of the "octave mandolin" still has to account for that one existing (as far as we know) example of a Gibson octave mandolin from 1904, mentioned in an earlier thread here. I guess we still don't know if it's a one-off custom order, or an experiment to test the waters, or if more than one was ever built. Either way, at least _someone_ on the American side of the pond was thinking about the utility of this shorter-scale (21 1/4") neck on a body sized larger than a mandola and smaller than a 'cello. And with a carved archtop too! Because that was the tone the American players (mostly classical?) at the time were shooting for, whether it was a mandolin, mandola, or mandocello.


I have sent an email to Rich Westerman, with a hope he might be able to throw some light on OMs. He was certainly building something like that in the late 70s.

Gibson in 1904 was, I suspect, still working out the market, especially for mandolin orchestra instruments. I am quite happy to accept that OM as a prototype, which never went any further, maybe because while there was lots of music for mandolin/mandola/mandocello/guitar ensembles, an octave mandolin might not have fitted in or seen to be necessary or overly complicated the product list. Being able to market an equivalent of a string quartet might have been seen as a better strategy. Just some thoughts

cheers

graham

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## John McGann

> But it does seem that there is something of an octave mando movement in the US that is completely independent from Irish trad music and the bouzouki.  Maybe John McGann will chime in here  :-)


Well, I still consider myself a musician who plays trad Irish music (and other styles) rather than exclusively a trad Irish Musician, so this should be heard as Voice of the American Mongrel. I do play a lot of Irish music in GDAE, both melody and backing, but I've also played the instrument exclusively in the Wayfaring Strangers, which is much more of a trad American/jazz brew of styles. I've played it on Django style gigs, Irish gigs, rock gigs, bluegrass gigs, pretty much whatever I can get away with...

I've been known to use modal tunings on occasion, especially while recording, but I like to stick with one tuning for performances. I find my brain operates more efficiently this way, or rather, I can shut off the "WTF" section of the brain that would be ON in other tunings-particularly when improvising; it would be a lot easier playing "set pieces" in alternate tunings, but i like to make stuff up as I go...

Chris Thile, Sarah Jarosz, Sierra Hull and other of us Young Americans love the octave mandolin, and maybe the approach is different from the classic Alec Finn/Donal Lunny/Andy Irvine/etc. ways of playing the instrument, but just as the "soprano" mandolin has a lot of identity outside of bluegrass, why shouldn't the OM outside of Irish trad?

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## Dagger Gordon

'but just as the "soprano" mandolin has a lot of identity outside of bluegrass, why shouldn't the OM outside of Irish trad? '


No reason at all, of course.  I think Sarah Jarosz in particular may well inspire a new interest in the instrument as she seems to be going to get pretty big.  At first glance you would think she was playing guitar, however, so people might not quite realise what she is playing.  I've always really enjoyed Tim O'Brien's song accompaniments on his bouzouki, whose Nugget instrument also looks like a guitar.    'Americana' played on an OM/bouzouki can and does work very well.

Another couple of thoughts:

In Scotland I don't seem to see so many of them in bands these days.  There seems to have been a return to the guitar.  I'm not sure what the position is in Ireland and in US Irish music circles.  

The bouzouki can be used by non-Greek musicians in other types of music - not just Irish or American.  I am thinking in particular of the amazing French guitar,oud and bouzouki player Titi Robin.  
Check out this video of his band playing with musicians from Pakistan at a festival in France.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nes7B...layer_embedded

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## ptritz

I recall years ago hearing Dave Richardson tell the story of his first Sobell instrument.  As he tells it, he was mostly playing tenor banjo with the Boys of the Lough at the time, and he asked Sobell to build him a wooden instrument like a tenor banjo but double-strung like a mandolin.  That must have been in the late '70s or early '80s, I'd guess.  So I suppose one could say that Richardson's story suggests there may have been yet a third more or less independent line of descent for these critters - derived from neither the greek bouzoukis nor from Gibson mandolins, but rather from tenor banjos.

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## John McGann

Andy Irvine also points to Stefan Sobell as the guy who took his Portuguese guitar's design and tweaked it into the current OM configuration...

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## zoukboy

> I recall years ago hearing Dave Richardson tell the story of his first Sobell instrument.  As he tells it, he was mostly playing tenor banjo with the Boys of the Lough at the time, and he asked Sobell to build him a wooden instrument like a tenor banjo but double-strung like a mandolin.  That must have been in the late '70s or early '80s, I'd guess.  So I suppose one could say that Richardson's story suggests there may have been yet a third more or less independent line of descent for these critters - derived from neither the greek bouzoukis nor from Gibson mandolins, but rather from tenor banjos.


Dave Richardson told me that story too, but he said that he previously had taken the idea to another builder before meeting Sobell.  That first instrument is pictured on the cover of the first Boys of the Lough LP.  It was not a complete success and when Richardson met Sobell, the latter, who was building dulcimers at the time, commented that he could do much better and so he built one for Dave.

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## zoukboy

> Andy Irvine also points to Stefan Sobell as the guy who took his Portuguese guitar's design and tweaked it into the current OM configuration...


Yeah, but wasn't that the genesis of Sobell's cittern concept?  I started getting Stefan's catalogs starting in about '82 and I don't remember him ever using the term "octave mandolin."

It's interesting that both Andy's Portuguese guitarra and waldzither were strung with four courses and Sobell's first citterns were both 4 and 5 courses.  He did not limit the cittern concept to 5 courses as has become common today.

Sobell also credits Andy with showing him GDAD tuning, which he lists as one of the ideas that contributed to is "cittern" idea.

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## Dagger Gordon

You're quite right.

Sobell used to offer citterns in 4 or 5 courses, and as I already said he sold me my instrument as an 8 string cittern.   Although I still tend to refer to it as my cittern, I am aware that he probably wouldn't call it that now.  What he would call it is indeed the problem.

When I started playing it, there were a lot of Sobell instruments around in Scotland played by Ossian, The Battlefield Band and others.

I think the first time I actually saw one played was by Tom Gilfellon - the guitarist with the Newcastle group The High Level Ranters.  He produced it at a guitar workshop at a folk festival in Inverness.  It sounded great.  I believe Tom put it up for sale not too long ago.  Dave Richardson, who like Tom comes from the North East of England, was a big influence on my own choice of instruments.

Stefan Sobell is also based in the North East of England, not too far from Scotland in fact.

Although the influence of Irish music was strong in Scotland at the time, it was really the availability and general attractiveness of Sobell instruments that made people want to play them.  Most bands were using them to explore their own Scottish music, I would say, rather than going for an 'Irish' tuning.  Also bear in mind that many Scottish bands began to incorporate Scottish bagpipes into their sound around this time.  There are far more Scottish pipe tunes in the key of A than the key of G, so cittern tunings were devised which were A based.

Although the use of these kinds of instruments by Planxty and the Bothy Band undoubtedly got people in Scotland interested in trying them, it seems to me that their use in Scotland - particularly of Sobell citterns- developed in a somewhat different way to Ireland.

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## foldedpath

Were those early Sobells flat-tops, or induced arch/flat-tops, or carved arch tops? Anything involving an arch would surely be a parallel evolution to whatever was happening over on the American side, with extensions or resurrections of the Gibson mandolin style. I mean... why do an arch at all, if the Greek bouzoukis weren't built that way? This is all very interesting. 

FWIW, here's what Stefan says on his current web site. Obviously the current builds are evolutionary, but he does mention both "curved" and carved soundboards:




> "My original concept of minimum stress construction, rigid neck joint, and curved or carved soundboard remains the same, but bracing patterns, soundboard shape, bridge shape and size have all changed, as well as many construction details."

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## zoukboy

> Were those early Sobells flat-tops, or induced arch/flat-tops, or carved arch tops? Anything involving an arch would surely be a parallel evolution to whatever was happening over on the American side, with extensions or resurrections of the Gibson mandolin style. I mean... why do an arch at all, if the Greek bouzoukis weren't built that way? This is all very interesting.


All archtops, as far as I have seen.  I don't think he started making "flattops" until much, much later, and those were guitars for the most part (I have seen one or two flattop citterns but I think they were one-offs).  

Stefan has described the origin of his archtops citterns/bouzoukis/octave mandolins as being a 1930s Martin archtop guitar.   He paired approach to the top with the body shape and neck/body joint of a Portuguese guitarra, so yes, an American influence, but it was a guitar, not a mandolin.

The "curved" tops he's referring to are, I think, his "flattop" guitars.

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## Dagger Gordon

Stefan Sobell's influence on these instruments has indeed been truly enormous.

There was a thread here about 'Swedish octave mandolins' a couple of years ago, where once again the question of what they are called came up.
Bob Deivert talks of the use of Sobell 'citterns' in Sweden in the late seventies/ early eighties.  Apparently Ale Moller used to use Greek bouzoukis but had trouble with them warping in Sweden so he moved on to Sobells.  The instruments have developed in their own interesting way over there - being adapted in very clever ways to suit their music.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ctave-mandolin

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## bertiebeetle

> When I started playing it, there were a lot of Sobell instruments around in Scotland played by Ossian, The Battlefield Band and others.
> 
> Although the use of these kinds of instruments by Planxty and the Bothy Band undoubtedly got people in Scotland interested in trying them, it seems to me that their use in Scotland - particularly of Sobell citterns- developed in a somewhat different way to Ireland.


Not forgetting the The Easy Club - a fantastic band who owed a lot of their sound to both Sobell bouzouki and guitar

Bertie

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## PseudoCelt

> It's interesting that both Andy's Portuguese guitarra and waldzither were strung with four courses and Sobell's first citterns were both 4 and 5 courses.  He did not limit the cittern concept to 5 courses as has become common today.


Sobell's first cittern had four-courses (photo attached) and was built for himself in 1973 according to his website.  The first 5-course cittern was built for Tom Gilfellon around '74/5, I think, and had two points on the body.  That particular cittern was for sale a few years ago on Stefan Sobell's website (wish I'd saved the photos).  IIRC, in the text of the ad, it said that Sobell was rather opposed to the idea of 5 courses, but Gilfellon insisted.

Patrick

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## Talabardio

Sorry, I guess I just don't buy into/care about the Irish-to-Greek, Sweeney's Men narrative... what I play is neither irish nor a bouzouki... not that there's anything wrong with those things. Seems like a lost battle to keep the 'irish' label on instruments, all around the world. That's what the liner notes on euro CDs are showing, anyhow. 




> Well, maybe it's not "real fun" if you don't care about the history of the instrument..."Irish" + "bouzouki" completely covers the origin of the instrument... But it is probably inevitable that other names will come and go, used by people with agendas that don't include Irish trad music.

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## zoukboy

> Sorry, I guess I just don't buy into/care about the Irish-to-Greek, Sweeney's Men narrative... what I play is neither irish nor a bouzouki... not that there's anything wrong with those things. Seems like a lost battle to keep the 'irish' label on instruments, all around the world. That's what the liner notes on euro CDs are showing, anyhow.


Care to propose an alternative?

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## jcp

well... a dreadnought isn't a battles ship, a piccolo will never carry your luggage, an OM guitar is not used in orchestra's, a jumbo is not an elephant... a grand auditorium would probably not be heard in the average auditorium,a mandolin makes thin slices...french fries aren't french, hamburgers live in hamburg as do berliners live in berlin, not all bubbly is champagne, beavers look like giant rats and pie is something you eat, Spa is a city in my country. glasses are made to serve drinks in, yet they help me see better , at least the first couple ; )...  it's an " Irish" bouzouki alright...  .
What about musical genres? Irish ?? Celtic? Trad. ?  I think we all know what is meant by " IRISH" bouzouki. it's a new instrument. Or should we call it a "Planxtychord"?

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## jcp

oh...and  "ZOUK" is a music style in the carribean

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## Dagger Gordon

Quote   "'I think we all know what is meant by " IRISH" bouzouki. "

Yes, I think we do.

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## allenhopkins

I think it's a long-neck octave mandolin, generally, which some tune differently from GDAE, but almost always a basic "fifths" tuning with perhaps one course altered (GDAD, _e.g._).  But as I said (three times) above, that's just me.

Welsh rarebit doesn't come from Wales, Swedish meatballs aren't Scandinavian, Mexican pizza is neither.  Irish bouzouki is neither, as well.  It can be used to play a polka, which isn't Polish, or a schottische, which isn't Scottish, or even a square dance where the dancers may execute an allemande, which isn't German either.  But as Shakespeare (who _was_ English) said, "What's in a neme?  An octave mandolin by any other name could play as sweet..." or something like that.

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## Dustin

> Care to propose an alternative?


A "long scale mexican pizza"! (lol)

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## Eddie Sheehy

I'm surprised it's not called an "AULD" or an Odd Oud, dude.

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## Kyle Baker

I can't believe this thread is still going... both sides can only argue the same points over and over so many times. Maybe when this thread gets to page 5 we can still see if people are talking about mexican pizzas :p

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## Bertram Henze

> Maybe when this thread gets to page 5 we can still see if people are talking about mexican pizzas :p


Maybe we can sidetrack it to Irish Coffee?  :Grin: 

One interesting point is that the Mexicans probably don't know what a Mexican pizza is, OTOH the Irish know perfectly well what an Irish Bouzouki is and have probably coined the name. Which raises the question who invented Mexican Pizza - probably an Irish car driver who ran over a cat in Lazaro Cardenas. Which in turn offers an explanation as to why Irish Bouzoukis have flat backs.

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## Ben Milne

LOL -  I just skipped pages 2 and 3 of this thread and it was pretty much seamless.

While I often revel in being quite priddish about things i am passionate about I also see the sense in using terms that have been adopted into common usage.  
If someone asks me about my little-guitar-thingy, and enquires further  about what a mandolin is, I am torn, as The prid in me is screaming for me to say a little mandola.  Of course it could be quite counterproductive to the conversation, so i usually go on to explain about scale length, unison pairs steel strings tuned to fifths etc.

I can appreciate all points of view here, and I think the important thing to remember is that they are just big little-guitar-thingies that we enjoy playing no matter how they're tuned where the neck joins and what style of music we're playing.

now back to the matter in hand...

(EDIT) - looking back at the intermediate pages I had to LOL at Eddie's post (#31) GOLD!

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## Jim Yates

I have always thought along the lines of Allen's posts.  I don't like the terms Bouzouki or cittern, since they already apply to instruments already in existence.  Grit Laskin calls all of his instruments, regardless of length of neck or number of string, long neck mandolins.  I like that label.  I've also heard them called mando-things or monster mandolins. 

 I play what most folks call an octave mandolin (Dustin would call it a "hunk of junk", but...) usually tuned GDAD.  I have never heard that GDAD meant bouzouki and GDAE meant OM. 

 To me, an octave mandola is tuned CGDA, an octave below a mandola; if it's tuned an octave below a mandolin, it's an octave mandolin.  I've always refered to the mandolin family and the violin family in the same way: violin/mandolin, viola/mandola, violin cello/mandolin cello, string bass/mando bass.

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## Paul Kotapish

> I have sent an email to Rich Westerman, with a hope he might be able to throw some light on OMs. He was certainly building something like that in the late 70s.


I have a Rich Westerman octave mandolin that he built for me in 1979. 23-1/2" scale. I still have the handwritten note he sent with the completed instrument in which he refers to  it as a "bazook." (I sold the instrument in the '80s sometime and it changed hands a number of time before making its way back to me. It's had a number of modifications over the years--most recently a new fingerboard and tailpiece. Still sounds good and I used it on an Open House reunion tour recently. I'll try to get a photo up soon.

I call it an octave mandolin when I want to be accurate and a bouzouki when I need to differentiate it from the conventional mandolin with sound engineers or studio producers who need a substantially different term when we're discussing how to mic and EQ the various instruments. They get confused with the octave mandolin moniker.

Rich made these in three scale lengths: 21", 23-1/2", and 26-1/4". He also made an instrument he called a cittern--with five courses, I think--as well as conventional flat-top mandolins. I've lost the original brochure with the details.

When I interviewed Stefan Sobell some years back, he told me in some detail that the inspiration for the sound his archtop OM/bouzouki/cittern was a Martin C-1 roundhold archtop that he traded a touring yank for a rebuilt VW engine. Turns out the yank was on Riggy Rackin, a stalwart of the local SF Bay Area trad music scene and mostly a concertina player and singer these days. Riggy confirms the story.

Stefan fused the archtop construction with the shape of the Portuguese guitarra he'd been playing and . . . magic.

Here is a page with that bit of history and some photos on Stefan's own website: 

http://www.sobellinstruments.com/en-...stcittern.aspx 

Those early Martin C-1s are great instruments on their own terms, by the way, and way, way undervalued. I always keep one around. When Martin switched to f-holes to compete with Gibson more directly for the jazz market, they abandoned a great design. The original C-2 and C-3 were also great.

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## Eddie Sheehy

I only read this thread for gems from Paul and Allen.. A rose by any other name is still a rose - Will Shakespeare.

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## allenhopkins

> I only read this thread for gems from Paul and Allen...


You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.  You have my blessing to call your OM/zouk whatever you like.

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