# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  $199.00 solid F style mandolin

## MikeEdgerton

There's only one, it will be gone quickly, I have no idea what condition it's in as it is a restock but for $199.00 you can have a Michael Kelly F style mandolin.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/folk-...81778002001000

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David Watson, 

dhergert, 

FLATROCK HILL

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## Tom C

First thing I notice in no ridge on the scroll. Very cheap mandos usually have (or don't have) this feature.

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## MikeEdgerton

They are almost 400.00 new. It's not a Gibson but somebody will enjoy it.

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## Folkmusician.com

These are actually carved.  There is a ridge on the scroll.  

It will need an extensive setup, but past that, not a bad mandolin for the "normal" street price.  A great F style for $200.   :Smile:

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MikeEdgerton

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## Tom C

I stand corrected   :Smile:

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## MediumMando5722

> I stand corrected


I thought the same thing.

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## Folkmusician.com

If I hadn't had these in my hands and was going by those photos, I would think the same thing.  You can't see the carving in those pics.   :Smile:

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## MikeEdgerton

If you enlarge the shot from the back it looks like the ridge is there. It also might be my eyes.  :Cool:

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## jim simpson

It would be hard to find fault with this one priced so low. I played a friend's recently and was pleasantly surprised at how good it sounded. That wasn't my impression when they first arrived on the scene. 

I seem to recall the discussion of lower priced F-5 style mandolins that looked to be carved but were steam pressed into shape and not truly carved in the traditional sense. As I understand it, the scroll area had enough material to be carved while the balance did not. I guess the absence of a re-curve was one telling indicator. In summation, I would take a semi-carved steam shaped mandolin over a ply or laminate topped one.

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## CES

I can remember when some vendors touted these as one of the best bargains out there (the now defunct FOTW for one). They do get one right every now and then.  :Wink:

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## Jeff Mando

Also has a radiused fingerboard and larger frets, nice features in that price point.

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## Steve Ostrander

It would make somebody a good traveler or campfire mando for that price. And I don't mean into the campfire.

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## re simmers

Thanks!  I just bought it.  I wanted something to keep at work.  This is perfect.

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## dhergert

Thank you all!  It is just what I was looking for...

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ackup-mandolin

...The Eastman models we were talking about may be a little too nice for some of the travel we've been considering.

Anyway, I think I got it.  At least the order has been accepted.

"Your order may arrive in multiple shipments"...  Hmmm, that's a little scary.

$237.73 w/next day air.

I can handle a minor setup; if there's anything I'd prefer a seasoned luthier to look at, I'll have my local friend Pete Roehling look at it.

Btw, upon re-visiting the website add, this mando still reads in stock...  Maybe they actually have more?

Thanks again!

-- Don

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## re simmers

Don,
Congrats.  I'm expecting there's at least 2 on their way to us!
Bob Simmers

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## dhergert

That's great, congrats to you also!  We'll have something to talk about in a day or two.

-- Don

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## re simmers

Mine is regular shipping.   I'm cheap!

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## MikeEdgerton

There must be more than one.

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## dhergert

So, my re-stock MKLFSTB arrived today.  Really quite a nice instrument for $199 plus overnight shipping costs.  

First, as far as reasons for re-stocking, there are some very minor (almost unnoticeable) scuffs on the matte finish, and there's a missing tuner button screw.  The tuner button is on so hard (probably molded on) that I cannot pull it off at all with the less than gentle tugging that I've tried, so I'm not very worried about the button coming off.  I may check to see if I can buy some replacement screws.  These are supposedly Grover tuners, but probably made in China, so the threads may be different than with some other Grover tuners.  I'm not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if the button screws are really just for looks with these tuners, the buttons are on really tight even without the screws.  If it turns out that the screws are just for looks and the buttons are really molded on, I may just remove all the button screws.

So, out of the box, this mando is bright and loud.  The build quality is very nice for a sub-$1k instrument, the woods (solid spruce top, solid maple body) look very high quality.  The binding and neck fit look very well done for this price range.  The peghead inlay doesn't look as cheap in person as it looks in the sales picture.  The scroll is carved with a ridge.  The top is pretty resonant.  The maple back has nice bookmatched flame figuring.  Nothing looks fake on this, although I haven't gotten my dentistry mirror out to look at the inside of the top or the neck joint yet.

When I received the MKLFSTB it was actually playable, but the action was high.  I adjusted the bridge for string height and intonation, and have been playing it for an hour or so.  I'll probably still want to adjust the nut for string height, but it's really not bad now as it is.  I'm actually pretty impressed.

In another thread I had asked if I should expect the Gibson muted resonance that I've grown to love with my F9.  The MKLFSTB is not a reserved instrument at all in that respect, it's actually somewhat of a cannon, with not much in the way of subtleties.  In listening to me play the MKLFSTB my wife describes the tone as noticeably not as rich as the F9, but trebly and loud.  My F9 sports FlatTop strings which are muted like flatwound strings are, so that's part of the difference.  But I suspect part of the MKLFSTB difference in tone is the build of the top and neck joint, and whatever bracing it has in it. 

All and all, I'm very pleased with this instrument.  I honestly wouldn't have dreamed of getting this kind of quality for $200.  It will be a very nice travel/knock-around mandolin, which is really what I was looking for.

Thanks again for bringing this topic up as a thread here.  I really appreciate the leads to getting this instrument.

-- Don

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## re simmers

Thanks for the review.  I am waiting - via snail shipping.

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## Folkmusician.com

Great review Don!

Tuner buttons are screwed on.  I occasionally find the buttons loose when they arrive from Michael Kelly.   Sounds like yours were jammed on good though.   :Smile: 


The tuners are in fact Grover's.   I know this, because I didn't think they were when I first started seeing them.  :Whistling:  I took a plate off and it was stamped Grover underneath.   I suspect that it is some licensed thing though as they are obviously not 309's.

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## dhergert

Robert, would you happen to know if the screws are available for these tuner buttons?

-- Don

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## Folkmusician.com

Don,

Unfortunately these are not readily available. You can get them in bulk from an industrial supply (cause it is good to have 99 spares on hand), or sometimes find them at a hardware store (not the big box guys).

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## dhergert

Thank you Robert.  

I actually wrote the Michael Kelly contact people an email last night about this, and the founder, Tracy Hoeft, as well as the head of quality control, Tim Keyes, have both responded by email...

First, these mandolins are covered by their warranty, because they are new.  Now, lost items like screws are not covered by any warranty, however both Tracy and Tom have said they will find a solution for my missing button screw, because they want their customers to be happy.

I have to say, I'm very impressed, not just that both of these important people for the Michael Kelly Guitars have responded, but that they have responded already, and on a Saturday.  To me that says a huge amount about service.  I'm really looking forward to working with them.

Clearly if asked, I'd highly recommend this company.

I've continued playing and tweaking my MKLFSTB.  I'm actually loving it.  I've got the intonation nailed, and have decided that I probably will tweak the nut a bit to adjust the string spacing and height a bit...  And while doing that I'll probably lightly dress the frets, as there are a couple of high frets near the florida that need some attention.

This mando is really sounding nice.  It takes a while with a new mando to learn how to pull tone from it.  I'm starting to get there with this one.  

Fun!!!

-- Don

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## mandroid

> These are actually carved.  There is a ridge on the scroll.  
> 
> It will need an extensive setup, but past that, not a bad mandolin for the "normal" street price.  A great F style for $200.


With 3D pantograph router patterns   there can  be a machine carving ,
 as was used  for a Long  time ,
 before CNC cutters  followed a Digital   movement in 3 dimensions..



 yea Musicians Friend ships un opened cartons,,  so seeking a 3rd party set up is assumed.

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## Willie Poole

Bob,  You don`t expect it to sound as good as your Buckeye do you?  A big shock if it even is close......

     Willie

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## dhergert

I just did a fret dressing and adjusted the nut on my MKLFSTB.  It plays very nicely now, just as smoothly as my F9.  Like butter.

Which leaves me to think more about the other bolt-ons that I have on my F9.  I have put a pick-guard, an armrest and a tone guard on my F9 and I really like them on it.  When I got the MKLFSTB I was thinking in terms of getting the same items for it, but actually I think now I won't do that.  The MKLFSTB sounds really quite good without them all, and more, the whole point for me was to get in with a travel/backup mandolin for as little investment as possible, so if it were to be damaged or stolen I wouldn't have a lot of heartache about it.  The pick-guard, armrest and tone guard all together would probably add around $300 to the total investment, so I think I'll hold off.

I am going to get a strap for the MKLFSTB.  And I may get a gig bag for it -- I'm using my F9's original TKL case for it now, which I'd like to preserve for the F9 in case I ever decide to sell or trade up with it.

I've been playing the MKLFSTB a lot.  The strings are breaking in nicely so some of that new brightness is wearing off finally.  I'm getting the nuances of pulling tone with the MKLFSTB.  I think this is going to be a very fun mando for me.

I'm primarily a banjo player, but nice banjos are heavy and are a pain to carry around especially if you're mobility challenged anyway.  I can't stand up while playing my banjos anymore, but mandos are light enough that I can easily carry them and can even stand up while playing.  So while I've casually played mando on and off since the 70s, I've lately been seriously concentrating on getting more up to speed with the mando.  And with travel/backup in mind, the MKLFSTB is going to be very handy.

So, my last issue with the MKLFSTB is the tuner button screw.  I expect to be in contact with the good folks at Michael Kelly sometime on Monday and hopefully get that resolved pretty briskly...  I told them that I'm willing to buy whatever parts are necessary to make this right, but from what they've said so far that probably won't be required.  I'm still amazed that the founder and QC director both emailed me yesterday in response to my query on Friday evening.  I know of some big-name instrument companies which would probably never respond like that.

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## Jeff Mando

Sounds like a good  deal for the money -- F style and all!  Most of the under $200 F styles I see are the bottom end Johnson/Savannah mandolins.  This sounds like a step up.

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## colorado_al

I have played some good MK mandolins and some not so good. I had a MK Legacy Dragonfly with Fishman pickup and it was only so-so. Even with proper setup, it just wasn't very interesting sounding and certainly not worth the money I spent. I bought it in a hurry since my gigging Mandolin had been stolen and I needed something quick. My brother has a MK Legacy Elegante that is far better than the MK I had. I think MK mandolins can be good, they are just not consistently so. For $200, certainly worth the gamble, especially for a travel instrument. Glad yours is working well for you!

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## EdHanrahan

A question on the "re-stocking" feature, especially as the seller lists another _without_ restocking for $299, or $100 more.  The full implications are not clear either here or on the seller's website.

It seems to me that the instrument was sold, played lightly, and later "re-stocked", which I take to mean maybe there was buyer's remorse and the original deal was undone, preferably in a very short time but possibly otherwise(?).  So does that make it a technically "used" instrument, or is the original sale deemed to have never occurred so that the new buyer is, at least legally, the "original purchaser" and retains all the legal rights, yadda yadda, covered under the manufacturer's "original purchaser" warrantee.

A price reduction of $100, or about a third, seems like a great trade-off for a few light playing scuffs, but seems less-great, and maybe quite appropriate, if there is no warrantee to the new buyer.

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## dhergert

Hi Ed,

Here is what MF says a "restock" item is:

= = = = =
_What is Restock?

Restock products may have signs of use or other forms of cosmetic damage that do not affect playability or performance. They may also have worn or non-original packaging.

Restocks are factory authorized B stock or C stock that have been returned by retailers for a variety of reasons and have been reviewed, repaired, or repackaged by the manufacturer. Standards of quality vary from one manufacturer to another.

Restock Guarantees

In most cases Restock products are guaranteed by the manufacturer to function or play perfectly and are covered by a manufacturers warranty. Some manufacturers offer a warranty with a shorter duration than new products. Restocks are eligible for extended warranty Gold Coverage and are also covered by our Musicians Friend 100% Satisfaction Guarantee. Order risk-free and take up to 45 days to check out the gear before deciding to keep it._
= = = = =

After receiving my MKLFSTB from MF on Friday afternoon, I had sent out an email to the Michael Kelly company on Friday evening about my restock MKLFSTB, including all the serial number and dates, prices, etc.  My main reason for writing is that one of my tuner buttons is missing a screw and I needed to know where to get the right threaded screw for it.  Among other things I asked about warranty...  

The founder of the company, Tracy Hoeft, emailed me back SATURDAY MORNING providing information about the missing button screw, which he said they will provide a solution for, and this was followed within about 90 minutes by an email from the director of Quality Control, Tim Keyes, who said he thinks he has a few of them in his desk and will contact me on Monday morning.  Obviously I'm very impressed with their service.

In the email from Tracy, he included that since this was a new Michael Kelly mandolin, my restock MKLFSTB from MF is covered by warranty.  He added that lost items like my missing button screw are not covered under warranty, but that he and his QC director would make sure this is taken care of because they care about customer satisfaction...  Again, I was very impressed.

So, it sounds like the restock MKLFSTB mandos from MF are covered by warranty.  

That's my experience up to this point in time.  I'm very positively impressed.  As always, YMMV.




> A question on the "re-stocking" feature, especially as the seller lists another _without_ restocking for $299, or $100 more.  The full implications are not clear either here or on the seller's website. ...

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## ajm2qc03

This is a killer steal, Don. I'm happy for you. I picked up an 08' Michael Kelly Legacy Elegante' a couple of months ago for $250 on CL...that's about 1/4 of the MSRP price back in '08, when they were still made in Korea. I am beyond satisfied with my instrument; it plays wonderfully compared other high end mando's that I've played, and definitely has a great and complex sound compared other sub 1k mando's. 
I also had a similar experience when dealing with MK directly, a very satisfactory experience. I was curious about some body nuances and differences between MKLE made today versus the one that I have from '08. My curiosity compelled me to call MK directly. 1st off, a HUMAN picked up immediately instead of a robot. Secondly, I didn't really know how to pose my questions since I didn't have anything specific to ask, so i just started with "here's the serial # and tell me everything you know...Please". Expecting a short answer to try moving on to the next customer's issue, I was pleasantly surprised when he proceeded to tell me EVERYTHING I wanted to know including MK transition from Korea to China and what effects that had on the company and how my instrument played into that transition. It ended up being a 20 minute conversation! So I concur with your statements on their customer service, for not really needed anything with respect to an issue with the company or my instrument, they bent over backwards to make sure all of my seemly unimportant questions were answered. 
I hope you continue to enjoy your MK, that really is a great deal for a work horse of an instrument

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## dhergert

Thank you Andy.  I feel very lucky.  Having my F9 to compare the MKLFSTB with really helps put this into perspective.  After a little setup, playability is great.  Tone is getting better every time I play it.  And it looks very nice.  Just need to get a strap.  I may keep the MKLFSTB in a nice hard case instead of a gig-bag, it does deserve the extra protection.

I did hear back from Michael Kelly, they have already sent out the button screws that I need this morning.  

Btw, I had also asked about the finish on mine, it isn't cyanoacrylate like I had suspected, but close -- it's a polyester finish.  Should last for a long time  :Smile: .

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## re simmers

Arrived today.  I tuned it up and played it.  No missing parts.  Structurally sound.   3 minor finish flaws.   The G and D strings have a buzz.   Frets aren't touching, so I will mess with the tuners and tail piece cover later.   The sound is good - better than some $1,000 mandos I've played.   It plays exceptional - no truss rod adjustment needed.   I'm shocked they can build and sell this mandolin for $200.    It's a keeper for my office at work, and backup.

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## dhergert

Yup, pretty amazing.  The longer I play and learn how to pull tone from mine, the better it keeps sounding.  My F9 is looking over it's shoulder, and it's a pretty great sound machine.

You mention tailpiece cover...  Does yours have a one-piece cast tailpiece?

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## re simmers

Yes.  Looks like a task to change strings.

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## allenhopkins

Somewhat interesting change in perspective: MK's don't get a lot of respect here on the Cafe, but when the price gets down under $200, hitherto undiscovered virtues emerge.

It's a real bargain for a solid-wood carved instrument, fer shur, but you can get a Kentucky KM-150 for under $300, and Kentucky instruments get generally better reviews.  No curl and points on the KM, and that does count for a good deal.

Hope all the MK purchasers get satisfaction from their mandolins!

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## dhergert

Sooo, if your tailpiece is the same as mine, and I suspect it is, as it is the 1-piece cast metal Michael Kelly design tailpiece it really cannot be the source of the buzz unless one or more of the screws that hold it on are loose.  The end "pin" could also be loose, that's also just tightening a screw.   Tuners are a possibility, plenty of screws there (possibly to loose too).  Although I'm not experiencing it, even though the 2-way truss rod doesn't need adjustment, it might need some tension on it to keep it from vibrating in the neck.  Or maybe the truss rod cover is loose, screws again.  If the buzz isn't from the frets, there isn't a whole lot else that can be making it.  I'm used to banjos where any of 50 or more odd metal parts could buzz if they are loose.

As mentioned, I had two high frets under the E strings at fret 14 and fret 20.  Those are gone now, the frets are nicely dressed and the string buzzing is gone.  And while doing that I adjusted the nut for spacing and height.  Very nice to play now.

Interestingly, I had to do almost exactly the same setup related things for my F9 when I got it.  You'd think for a couple of thousand dollars difference...  Well, I'm glad to have both instruments so why complain.  Setups are a fact of life with just about any fretted instrument now days.

I'm toying with the thought of putting the same kind of Flat Top strings that I use on my F9 on my MKLF.  But first I want to get the EXP74s broken in so I can really hear what they will sound like longer term.  I wouldn't mind having two instruments that sound so different regarding brightness as these two sound just for the variety, but I really want the MKLF to use as a backup for my F9, so that's why I'm thinking about Flat Tops for it too.  Something to consider for a while. 

I just ordered my strap.  That will make the MKLF easier for me to play -- I always wear the strap, whether standing or sitting.  Almost ordered a gig bag, but I'm trying to talk myself out of it.  The MKLF is nice enough to deserve a hard case.

I hope you're enjoying yours as much as I'm enjoying mine!




> Yes.  Looks like a task to change strings.

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## mandolinstew

Wonder how many they have.I just ordered one.Guitar Center is out of them.Amazon has one for $449.Michael Kelly is out of them.Looking  forward to checking it out.Could be my workplace mando.

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## MikeEdgerton

I thought it was a one off, it appears they might have more.

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## Willie Poole

Their web site now shows them for $$299, I wonder if they are marked down because of the buzz that both of you encountered?  Maybe they thought it was something internal in the mandolins or wasn`t worth their time to correct the high frets,,,

   Are they still located in Clearwater Fla.?  I wanted to tour their place one year to see what they had and they said they only sell through a dealer so i never pursued it...I am sure what they have is better than the junk that Fender offers though and is cheaper too, in price...

     Willie

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## dhergert

Hmmm, the original website that Mike posted still shows them at the same price and in stock...  Just went to the OP and tried it.  Also if you do a search at MF for "restock MKLFSTB" it will come up.

-- Don

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## dhergert

Ok, just to wrap this up for me, the Michael Kelly people sent me the missing screw for my tuner button plus three others as backup.  Very nice.  So my restock MKLFSTB is in excellent shape now.

Continuing setup with my MKLFSTB, I've put on some new FT74 FlatTop strings on both it and on my F9 so I could compare them more accurately.  This is where it gets really interesting...

The extreme brightness of the MKLFSTB is now gone.  It has greater sustain than the F9, I suspect mostly because of the heavy cast tailpiece but also maybe because of the poly finish or the ABS nut (with open strumming).  Both instruments sound great.  The F9 does have a more complex, colored tone, that slightly muted resonance that I've learned to love from it, and I'm not hearing that as much from the MKLFSTB yet although it's new and perhaps it is not opened up yet.  But at least to my ears this difference is very subtle.  

My wife, who has played guitar and sung with me for over 45 years and has pretty good ears for musical differences, can't tell them apart except for the greater sustain of the MKLFSTB.  My son, who plays guitar and bass in bands, also agrees with this assessment.

Soooo, the MKLFSTB is now my backup and travel mando and I'm extremely pleased with it.  $199 is a remarkable deal for quite a nice mandolin. 

Many thanks to Mod Mike for pointing this deal out in the OP, and for others for helping to clarify questions about it.

-- Don

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## mandolinstew

Picked mine up yesterday at the post office.Box and mandolin in good condition.Put on E and A  Thomastiks,D and G GHS silk and steels.There are a few areas not finished well but are not noticeable.Only had to adjust the bridge.Very surprised how good it sounds.

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## MikeEdgerton

The link in my original post still shows these as 199.00. It isn't stopping me from getting to the shopping cart.

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## mandolinstew

from ABS nut supplier in China: Solid Durable,a good choice for your Mandolin instrument,it is will bring more beautiful music for you.How can you resist that?

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## re simmers

I guess it's not a "limited edition?"  Lol
I'm glad I bought it anyhow!
Bob

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## Mike Stewart

> The link in my original post still shows these as 199.00. It isn't stopping me from getting to the shopping cart.


After watching this thread for a few days, I finally said, "what the hell" and ordered one just minutes ago. MF took my money just fine.

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## dhergert

Mike, I hope you and others who are getting or have already received these mandos are as pleased as I've been.  

Keep in mind, as new instruments these mandos are covered by the MK warranty per the MK folks themselves.  I think it's a 2 year warranty, which may be shorter than the normal MK warranty for this item, but 2 years is a really good shake out period.  As you may have seen from my previous posts in this thread, the MK people have been an absolute joy to work with for me; they obviously want their customers to be happy with their instruments.

Also, MF has a 45-day return period, plus you can get an extended warranty if desired.

(Regarding warranty, I do expect that adjusting the nut and dressing the frets voids the factory warranty at least for those parts under most civilian circumstances.)

I consider this the best musical $199 I've spent in a long time.

Best of luck with this!

-- Don

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Jeff Mando, 

Mike Stewart, 

MikeEdgerton

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## MikeEdgerton

I finally decided to just buy one of these as a mandolin to keep at work. The order went through fine.

What the heck, I've got an extra case sitting here and some other hardware I can change if need be.

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dhergert, 

Robert Mitchell

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## MikeEdgerton

The specs say that this comes with Grover tuners. I'm looking forward to just messing with this thing.

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## dhergert

The tuners are very smooth, more smooth than those that are on my F9 (2002).

And another interesting part is the tailpiece...

-- Don

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## Mike Stewart

> I finally decided to just buy one of these as a mandolin to keep at work.


I don't personally know you, Mike, nor do I know your habits or willpower. But when you were saying earlier how you were dropping it in the cart to see if MF was still selling them, I asked myself, "wonder how long he'll last before clicking that 'checkout' button?"  :Laughing:

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## MikeEdgerton

I actually do have willpower but I realized I had a need. That's what MAS is all about. That and and I can mess with it  :Smile: 

Several years ago there was this great closeout on Fullerton mandolins really cheap. They were real sleepers. I bought one, decided I didn't like it and sent it back. I've seen them sell for 4 times what I paid for that thing. I should have kept that one to keep under my desk.

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## MikeEdgerton

> The tuners are very smooth, more smooth than those that are on my F9 (2002).
> 
> And another interesting part is the tailpiece...
> 
> -- Don


What kind of tuners are on your F9?

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## dhergert

I actually don't know the brand, but the buttons (white) are molded (or glued) on.  No button screws.  I am not the original owner, but it looks to me like these tuners were original equipment, there are no unused screw holes or re-fit indentations in the back of the peghead.  This was the first year that the F9 was produced; since then the newer F9 models do have tuners with button screws. Again, I don't know the brand that are on them now either.

Btw, I just ordered a second MKLFSTB from MF, this for a close friend who also wants a backup/travel mando.  He has a few Kettler mandolins that he really likes, but like me he wants something that sounds good that he can travel with, and can play in harsh conditions without worrying.  He heard mine yesterday and just called me about getting one today.

Mike, from an ethical standpoint, should I be thinking about a special donation to Café, since it was here that I found out about these mandos?  I'm willing if that is the fair thing to do.

Actually, strike that question -- I'm doing it anyway.  I appreciate Café and all the folks that support it.

-- Don




> What kind of tuners are on your F9?

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## MikeEdgerton

I would guess they were Schaller tuners. Post a picture and I should be able to verify that. Those are usually pretty decent tuners.

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## dhergert

Here they are...



They may need a little gentle oiling.  I haven't touched them except to tune with them since I got the mandolin in 2012.  Your suggestions?

-- Don

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## MikeEdgerton

Those are Schaller tuners. Take a look at Paul Hostetter's tuner maintenance page:

http://www.lutherie.net/tuner.maintenance.html

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dhergert

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## Robert Mitchell

Thank you Mike for starting this post,,I've been following,,and just pulled the trigger.
Order went through fine,,so now I'm waiting.Looks like a great deal!!!!
BTW,,,,Music 123 asks $499.99

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## MikeEdgerton

Music123 is owned by MusiciansFriend. Same company  :Smile: 

I got the shipping notice on mine last night.

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## Robert Mitchell

didn't know,,let us know what you think of the mandolin ..when you get it.

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## dhergert

My new (#2) MKLFSTB order just shipped from MF.  I had a number of other items that had to be collected.  Should be here tomorrow.

I'll be doing the setup on this for my friend, he wants it just like mine, so I expect to be lowering the action at the nut and bridge, dressing the frets if necessary, setting the bridge for intonation, changing the strings, etc...  My friend also wanted a tone guard, a tuner and a strap, plus some extra tuners and straps for his Kettler mandolins, so those will be coming in soon.  He's got a spare case at home, so we won't need to order that.  More fun.  

-- Don

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## Ellsdemon

Got mine yesterday, and I'm loving it.  I'm still learning to play and I wanted a serious upgrade from the A style that I bought sometime ago.  I love the sound and the flat finish on it.  I wouldn't be able to tell you much detail on nut, and fret boards, etc. compared to way more expensive Mando's but this is awesome.  I've gone to a local shop and played around with Mando's that were $5K+ and my inexperienced ear wouldn't be able to tell too much difference.  The sound comes out loud and what I call "twangy/bluesgrassy".  The tailpiece does look to be a pain in the but when changing strings since you can't seem to get direct access to the hooks to maybe put tape on it so they don't come out when threading on tuners.  But not impossible.  

Very grateful for whomever posted the start of this thread, I would not have been able to upgrade so much and at a price that I didn't have to beg my wife to much.  Thank you.

----------

MikeEdgerton

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## dhergert

Having changed the strings on this mando with its custom MK tailpiece, and then also changed strings on my F9 with its standard Gibson tailpiece, I'd say actually the MK tailpiece is no worse while changing strings than the Gibson tailpiece is.  As far as strings coming loose from the tailpiece while stringing up the mando, in my experience this happens randomly with both tailpieces.

Oh, and the MK tailpiece can use ball-end strings, a capability which I use since I use custom string sets for my custom mando tunings.

I do suspect that there is a beneficial tone difference with the heavier cast MK tailpiece, but I haven't switched it or other tailpieces around with either of my F-style mandos to prove that.

-- Don

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## Mike Stewart

> Mike, from an ethical standpoint, should I be thinking about a special donation to Café, since it was here that I found out about these mandos?  I'm willing if that is the fair thing to do.
> 
> Actually, strike that question -- I'm doing it anyway.  I appreciate Café and all the folks that support it.


So that you know, you prompted me to drop my first dollars in the hat. I've been mostly lurking for a couple of years, benefitted from Mr. Edgerton's knowledge in the past  when trying to date my A-50, and benefitted in other ways from others. Now I saved a few hundred on a mandolin (Edgerton again, hmm) that some say plays better than its price, so time to kick in, I guess.

Oh, I'll be leaving work early tomorrow so that I'm here when UPS drops it off. Told work I didn't want it to sit out in the rain. Hope they don't check the forecast. 😄

----------

dhergert, 

MikeEdgerton

----------


## dhergert

Well, my #2 order came in today, the one for my friend.  Another great MK mando, sounds great from the box.  I'll be dressing the frets, adjusting the nut and bridge and changing the strings on this mando also; this friend is used to Kettler mandos and buttery action so I'm giving this new MK the same treatment as mine. 

The build of this 2nd MK is very good, and extremely similar to my first one, but there are some very subtle but noticeable differences, enough to indicate that they were not totally made by a machine and maybe not even by the same person.  And the wood grains and flame patterns are also different, enough to verify that they are definitely not photographic simulations.  Real solid wood here.

Oh, and no missing screws on these tuner buttons.  Everything is here.  Other than a couple of high frets, I really can't find anything that would have qualified this MK as a restock.

Mike, thanks again.  Great buys!

-- Don

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## MikeEdgerton

Did the boxes look like they were repacked?

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## Jacob

> Did the boxes look like they were repacked?


Mine appeared to be in original unopened packaging.

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## MikeEdgerton

I suspected that might be the case. Even better.

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## Mike Stewart

For those of us a little thick in the head, are you suggesting these were never restocks to begin with? That would explain why they appear to have so many of them.

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## MikeEdgerton

I'm suggesting that they are calling them that so they can sell them at the price they are selling them. It was probably a program with MK to get rid of excess stock.

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## Bill Snyder

I ordered one. Never purchased from Musician's Friend. Will they email me tracking information when it ships.

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## MikeEdgerton

You should get an e-mail when the order is accepted and another one when it ships. Should is the keyword. I never got the shipping notice but I checked the order on their site and got a tracking number. Mine should arrive tomorrow.

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## Mike Stewart

> You should get an e-mail when the order is accepted and another one when it ships. Should is the keyword.


I think that they say on their website somewhere that they'll send shipping notice. Of the few times I've ordered from MF, they've never sent one, including this time.

But as Mike said, wait a day or two, go dig through their site to find the "order status" link. Enter email and order number, sorted.

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## Jacob

I've always gotten shipping notices with the tracking number from MF. It may take another day for it to show up on the UPS or UPSMI website.

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## dhergert

Mike, both of mine came in a large rectangular box with shipping paper padding and the MF receipt.  This large box also contained a smaller, mostly triangular box which contained the mandolin in a foam wrapper, the truss rod Allen wrench in a plastic bag and a small page of truss rod documentation.

The large box had been opened and re-taped, at least to put the MF receipt in.  The triangular box was sealed with two pieces of shipping tape, and it did not appear to have been re-taped. 

Regarding packaging, MF indicates that restocks may be in "worn or non-original packaging" or they may be "repackaged by the manufacturer".

Maybe this is normal at this price range, but it is worth mentioning that both of the MKLFSTB mandos that I've gotten have each had two to three high frets (above the 12th fret) that have needed to be addressed with leveling and dressing.  One had some very minor finish issues, a missing tuner button screw and the nut string spacing was off center, the other seems to be in perfect shape as far as finish and parts (other than frets) are concerned.  Do you think that the fretwork is a serious enough problem to cause a restock?  

As you say, they may be simply selling off old stock.  MF still reports these "restock" MKLFSTB to be "In Stock & Ready to Ship".

-- Don




> Did the boxes look like they were repacked?

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## Ivan Kelsall

I bypassed this thread. Having read 'solid' with no make attached,i though it was about a 'solid body' mandolinrather than a 'solid wood'. Anyway,my very first Mandolin was a Michael Kelly 'Legacy' Solid = all solid wood,no laminates. It came very well set up from TAMCO here in the UK & was playable from the off. It had no issues other than the 'tin' tailpiece was an instrument of torture in itself. The tailpiece cover had been made twisted & must have been forced on.I had to lever it off with a screwdriver. Having removed the cover,i left it off & bought an Allen cast tailpiece for it.
   Tonally,as you might expect from an inexpensive mandolin (£350 UK approx. back in 2005),it was a bit 'thin' sounding with not a great deal of power. However,i'd only bought it to discover if i had any talent to play a mandolin at all,so the tone wasn't so important. I found that i did have the talent to play & traded it in within 3 months on my first 'good' mandolin.
   All told,for it's cost,i found it to be a good mandolin to begin learning on,especially as with all instruments from Trevor at TAMCO UK,it was well set up & very playable. Other than for the tailpiece,it was a good instrument & a good experience,it certainly made me want to keep on playing,
                                              Ivan :Wink: 

PS - If you look at the scroll on the MK,you can just about see the 'slope' on the outer edge of the scroll ridge - it was carved. You can also see that the tailpiece was on 'crooked'. The main body of it wasn't,the _cover was twisted_ & forced on.

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## Mike Stewart

> Mike, both of mine came in a large rectangular box with shipping paper padding and the MF receipt.


Mine came yesterday, same packing. The box holding the mandolin does not look to have been retaped.

Overall, quite the bargain for $200. But mine does need work. I had to tighten that truss rod more than I've ever tightened one before (probably not a full turn, though), lots of bow in that neck. After all that tightening, I think it could still use a tweak or two. No high frets that I found at first glance. Dropped the bridge a good bit, leaving the action still high but playable. Intonation's off. That said, it was what I would consider to be "playable" out of the box, though a beginner would have a rough time. In summary, expect to do a full setup, tweaking anything that can be tweaked.

*Left to do*: file the nut slots down to get the action a bit lower, sand the bridge (a few gaps under there), set intonation, new strings, should be done tonight.

*Quality*: well, the finish work on the scrolly bits isn't going to win any awards. There are a few small scuffs on the finish that'll probably buff right out. The tuners, meh, I've had better and I've had worse. But for the rough finish on the scrolls and the Florida extension, the rest looks to have been put together pretty well. Robots and CNC machines or not, it's a far better put together F-style than I would guess for a street price of $500.

*Sound*: haven't played it a whole lot yet, but as others point out, it is a bit thin. Volume seems good, and though I'm not much of a chop player, it's got a better chop than anything in my house (not saying much considering what I own, though). Without having yet done a side-by-side, it's better sounding than the low-end Kentucky (which I bought used for $35 less than this one) it will likely replace. 

For the money and for its intended purpose (camping/travel mando), I'm tickled. A decent-looking instrument with okay sound that won't make me cry when I get a scratch on it (or if it has to go in the cargo hold).

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Mine just arrived. I'm at work without a tuner or pick so I can't say anything about the playability. Mine came in a nice new MusiciansFriend outside carton and an untouched (not repacked) MK inner carton. First glance the f holes could be a little cleaner, neck looks right, binding looks right, the bridge isn't even leaning. There is a small run down by the inside of the scroll. The finish is a matte finish. It's a whole lot for $200.00 and I haven't even played it yet. I can see flame on the inside of the back that seems to match the outside. Scrolls aren't perfect. Tuners look to be Grovers. All the screws are there. The bridge looks good, tailpiece should be functional but looks funky to me.It will need some tweaks but it will do. It's not a Gibson or a Collings or even an Eastman or Kentucky but at two bills for a solid wood mandolin it seems like a good deal.

----------

dhergert

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## Ivan Kelsall

Mike S. / Mike E. - Maybe if i'd known as much about mandolins as i do now (still not _that_ much),i'd have tried a few different string sets to find one that suited the MK. It certainly had a decent volume,but it sounded 'thin'. However,considering it's humble cost,it was fine to play & served me well for 3 months. The set up carried out pre-sale by TAMCO was a blessing. I'd never have stood a chance on my own & the Mandolin Cafe was many months away. In some ways,i wish i still had it to work on to see just how good i could get it to sound. The bottom line should be it's playability. If it's easy to play, then if you get the tone as good as you _can_ get it,then maybe sacrificing a bit of tone isn't too bad,
                                                                                                         Ivan :Wink:

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## GeoMandoAlex

I have been playing a MK Firefly Flame since about March/April 2004.  I believe I changed to an Allen tailpiece and had a setup done on it when I bought it.  I don't recall the luthier's name (he is near Jacksonville, FL) who did the set up and I apologize for that.

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## Robert Mitchell

Mine arrived last nite. Well packed,,2 noticeable differences from spec.
There is no radius, and abalone markers as opposed to pearl.
Not a problem for me,,after some setup work,,I played for about an
hr. pleasantly surprised!! I think the nut will be swapped out for a bone
one,,and diff. strings. All in all,,a good deal!!!!

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## dhergert

The stock strings on the MKLFSTB are the well respected DA (E)XP74s.

I've changed these strings on my new MK and on my friend's new MK (on which I'm doing the setup for him) to (E)FT74.  I routinely use these on my F9 and I have liked the woody muted resonance that the FlatTops tend to enhance with that mandolin.

The (E)FT74 strings do tend to reduce the thinness that we've talked about on the MKs and they help it produce a more balanced tone.  The wound 2nd really adds to the bass tone character of the MK and it reduces the brightness.

I also observe that the (E)FT74 sets are not quite as piercing on a mandolin, just as traditional flat wound strings would be.

These 2 MKLFSTB mandolins that I've handled and played are both new so they may open up over the years.  We'll have to see how they sound as time passes.

-- Don

----------

Jacob

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## multidon

This has been an interesting thread to follow. One of the most asked questions around here over the years has been "what's the best F style mandolin I can buy for under 200 dollars?" Asked so often in fact it has become a joke, mostly because we all know there is no such a thing. Then the newbie is told that they get way more bang for their buck if they get an A style, but then the OP replies and say "but I REALLY want an F style! I just like how they look!" If I had a nickel for every discussion I've read on these forums like that, well, I'd have a whole lot of nickels!

Now it appears the elusive under 200 dollar decent quality F style mandolin is not a figment of our imaginations any more, at least for the present. You have to tweak them in various ways, it seems, and buy a case, but the under 200 dollar f style DOES exist, at least for now. It sounds like, though, the majority of buyers are not the newbies who yearn for it but the more experienced players who want something for the office, for camping, for a beater, something to play around with an hot rod, etc., etc. When will the newbies catch on? And I wonder how long this door will stay open? It would seem it can't go on forever,  but I would be willing to bet they could sell as many as they wish at that price.

----------

dhergert, 

Mark Gunter

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## Folkmusician.com

> Now it appears the elusive under 200 dollar decent quality F style mandolin is not a figment of our imaginations any more, at least for the present....
> 
> And I wonder how long this door will stay open? It would seem it can't go on forever, but I would be willing to bet they could sell as many as they wish at that price.


 :Laughing: 

Don is right. This won't go on long, and I wouldn't expect to see the deal come up again anytime soon (many years).  You really can't make and sell Solid carved F styles at this price, especially not at the retail level, or at least not without losing money.  In my 20 years of doing this, I have had three opportunities to get EXTREMELY discounted mandolins. Good deals come up now and then, but great deals like this, maybe every 5+ years.   

My best advice would be to not procrastinate.  If you want one, get it now.  I guarantee that there is not an infinite supply and these will disappear shortly.

----------

dhergert

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## farmerjones

You guys (&  gals) are the *worst.* 
I've checked to see if that initial link works three different times. 
Three different times I've gotten to the check out and closed the window. 
Okay, okay, I pulled the trigger. I may never see a carved F style this cheap again.
. . .reading all these unpacking stories. 
It's not enabling if you get one yourself, right? 
Tell me this place isn't a force to be recon'd with. 
Mike I appreciate keeping an eye out, truthfully. Opportunity is opportunity.

----------

FLATROCK HILL

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## FLATROCK HILL

> You guys (&  gals) are the *worst.* 
> I've checked to see if that initial link works three different times. 
> Three different times I've gotten to the check out and closed the window. 
> Okay, okay, I pulled the trigger.


Yeah...Me too. Just couldn't take the pressure.

----------

farmerjones

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## MikeEdgerton

If you click on the link in the original post you'll now see that this has become a "Best Seller"!  :Cool:

----------

farmerjones

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## dhergert

Hmmm, just ordered my 3rd one.  Thinking about gifting it to the close friend who I got my F9 from -- the F9 was his only mando and he hasn't replaced it yet.  Christmas time's a coming...

-- Don

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## Jeff Mando

> Hmmm, just ordered my 3rd one.  
> 
> -- Don


3rd one, eh?  Maybe we should change MAS to MKAS............ :Laughing:

----------

dhergert

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## farmerjones

This morning I tried to browse to it from the front door, and couldn't seem to find it. 
Only by using the "magic Mike E. link" did I find it. 
No wait. Browsing MK mandolins only. Still says there's only 1 left!  :Laughing: 

Somewhere on another page, snare drums are going through the roof!  :Smile:

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dhergert

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## dhergert

On MF if you do a search for "MKLFSTB restock" the mando we're talking about will come up.  Still "In Stock & Ready to Ship" as of this moment.  I was worried, happily I didn't buy the last one.

-- Don

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## Bill Snyder

Clicking the link in the originating post still takes you straight to it. No search function needed.

----------

dhergert

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## dhergert

True...

Some websites will simply take out-of-date web pages out of service by making them unavailable through their main menu or through their search option.

My checking through the MF search option was simply to verify that Mike's OP web page reference was still up-to-date.  It is up-to-date, checked again as of now.  Shopping cart loaded properly.

Btw, am I remembering the website wrong, or did it originally say something about "1 Restock"?  It isn't saying that now.

-- Don

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## MikeEdgerton

I believe it said it originally because I put that in the original message.

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## Ivan Kelsall

From trainmaster - _" I think the nut will be swapped out for a bone one,....."_. What makes you think that it isn't already a bone nut ?. The cost of the instrument isn't any guide regarding that. Years ago,i bought a Pac-rim made banjo & took  some time in removing the 'plastic' nut,& making & fitting a good bone nut,only to find that the nut i'd just removed was already bone !. Sometimes a bone nut can be fitted & then it's sprayed over with whatever finish is applied to the headstock,making it look like plastic. One way to tell before you do anything is the 'hot pin' test. Get a pin or needle red hot & lightly touch the nut with the point. If you see smoke,it's plastic,if you don't, then it ain't !. I'm pretty sure that the nut on my own MK was bone,
                                                                                                                                                          Ivan

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## Robert Mitchell

Ivan,,,the  spec calls out   "ABS" NUT.Thats what I was going on,,it does look like plastic,
anyhow,,thanks for your input.

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## mandolinstew

did a very hot pin and nothing,didn't smoke or make a dent

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## dhergert

According to the Michael Kelly people who I've talked with, these mandos have a polyester finish.  So if you do a hot pin test on that nice solid figured maple back, it might make a little bit of smoke.

Btw, the ABS nuts are hard and work well with files.  They may be a little more brittle than bone.

-- Don

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## mandolinstew

only hot pinned the nut,not planning to test the back.it seems the country that gave us lacquer is now using polyester. much easier than catching all those lac bugs.

----------


## re simmers

I have tightened all the screws.   The strings are not hitting the frets.    I cannot get rid of the buzz in the wound strings.   I'm not a luthier...at all.    Anything else I can try?  Thanks.
Bob

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## dhergert

Bob, have you checked your truss rod?  

The Allen wrench tool and the instructions that are included with the MKLFSTB are for adjusting the truss rod.  

One of the two of these mandolins that I've setup had a loose truss rod that vibrated inside the neck.  I just had to tighten it up enough so it didn't vibrate, it wasn't much at all, not enough to change the relief.

You've probably already tightened the screws for the truss rod cover, but if not, those should also be snug.

Let us know if that helps...

-- Don

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## Folkmusician.com

HI Bob,

If everything is tight on the mandolin there are only a few things that will cause buzz.

Pick the strings and get it to buzz. While it is buzzing:

Touch the strings above the nut. 
Touch each tuner button screw. 
Lay your palm on the strings between the bridge and tailpiece.
Touch the thumbwheels on the bridge.

If you touch any of these and it is the cause, the buzzing will stop. 

None of this?  Proceed....

Shake the mando or tap the neck.  If it is a loose truss rod (Like Don says, this does happen a lot), you can hear it rattle.  No rattle, you might check it anyway just to eliminate it as the issue.

Now, with few exceptions, this leaves the string slots, the frets, or the strings themselves.

If it buzzes when fretted, it is not the nut.
A string slot buzz does not sound as metallic as fret buzz, but can be hard to identify, short of running a file through it and fixing it. The bridge slots can buzz, but this is not nearly as common as fret buzz.

Mostly likely it is fret buzz, but then we have to identify the cause.  It will basically come down to setup and fret work.   :Smile:

----------

dhergert, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

jhowell

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## re simmers

I tried all but the thumb wheels on the bridge and the truss rod.   When I get home I'll try both.
Thanks very much.
Bob

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## chipotle

Well, I saw this thread about a week ago and I bit. MK has never really been on my radar but for the price I couldn't resist. Mine has an obvious flaw on the back binding of the scroll, other than that it looks immaculate. I really like the matte finish. Brought it in tune, bridge rides pretty high. It will need a little work, for the price though I'm pretty happy with it. Packaging was the same as mentioned above, unopened factory boy packed inside MF shipping box with packing paper. Still only one left!

----------

MikeEdgerton

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## re simmers

The buzz is gone!  I tightened the truss rod....it WAS loose.   Then - there was still a buzz in the top D string when played open.   I rechecked the button screws.  One was loose, but it wasn't on the string with the buzz.   After tightening it the buzz on the other string was gone.
Thanks for the help.
Bob

----------

dhergert

----------


## dhergert

Glad to hear the buzz is gone, Bob...  

Robert's "...a few things that will cause buzz..." list is a great guideline for all of us.  Thank you Robert!

Last evening I spent a few very enjoyable hours jamming and listening to the friend who I acquired and setup my MKLFSTB order#2 for.  This man is a long-time bluegrass mandolin player, a performer in a very active local band.  He has a few very nice Kettler mandolins that he uses as his main-players and after hearing my MKLFSTB, was very excited to acquire one of his own to use as his "beater" mandolin.  He has a relatively light touch and really likes low action, which of course means he also needed very true fretwork on his new MKLFSTB.  

Not only does he love the MKLFSTB and the tone it puts out, but he also loves the work I did for him in setup.  He says that the action compares extremely well with the setup of his Kettler mandolins, and as we jammed it was pretty clear that he was literally obsessed with the MKLFSTB's playability, tone and volume.  I was extremely pleased to see that.  This was also his first experience with the (E)FT-74 strings, and he is really enjoying them.

My MKLFSTB order#3 is due in late today...  This one is destined to be a Christmas gift for another experienced player, the dear friend who traded his F9 to me.  I'll check this MKLFSTB over very carefully and if it is in the same good workable shape that the other 2 orders have been in, I'll probably not do a setup on it because this person has particular action tastes and typically does his own setup.  So it will go into a spare case that I have waiting for it and it will get wrapped for under the tree.

I'm continuing to enjoy my personal MKLFSTB.  I did a little more action work on the bridge, re-seating the feet to improve tone and volume, and at the same time removing a bit of material to allow more adjustment with the thumbscrews.  As has been mentioned by others, the bridge on these mandolins tends to ride high and the saddles tend to bottom out in adjustment, so there's a need for some bridge work there.

My testing song for knowing if my action and playability are just right is a fairly compact arrangement of Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring, about 2.25 minutes worth.  Happily, my MKLFSTB is now at the point where I can comfortably play this piece.  

This mandolin is working out very nicely and I again want to thank Mike Edgerton for bringing this wonderful deal to our attention.  Thanks Mike!

-- Don

P.S. As of this writing MF still lists these restock MKLFSTB mandolins as "In Stock & Ready to Ship" and they can be put into the shopping cart.

----------

FLATROCK HILL, 

Nick Gellie

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## Bill Snyder

Mine arrived. First glance it looked good, tuned it up sounds good. Neck relief needs adjusted - easy enough to do.
The deal breaker is upon closer examination I see a very definite crack coming off of the bottom hole of the treble side f-hole.
Ashamed. I like everything else about it. I am hoping I can get a replacement that passes muster.

----------

dhergert

----------


## dhergert

Sorry to hear about this Bill and about the extra effort that this means for you.  

MF does have a 45 day return policy, plus in talking with the Michael Kelly company, they do consider that these restocks are new instruments, so there is at least a 2-year warranty on them...  

I'm pretty sure that both MF and the Michael Kelly company have become aware of this discussion thread, so it wouldn't surprise me if they will be anxious to help.  I've had extremely good service already with Michael Kelly related to some questions and some missing button screws.

Like you, I hope the next one is perfect for you.  Please do let us know how it turns out.  

-- Don

----------


## dhergert

So, my 3rd MKLFSTB order just arrived.  Similarly packaged, normal MF big box, with the un-opened smaller box inside...  It was very warm which bothers me, but it's around 95f outside here today so that's not surprising.  

This arrived tuned only 1/2 step low of concert pitch which probably means it was tuned to concert pitch when it was shipped.  All of the other MKLFSTB orders were tuned quite low and were not consistent from one string to the next when they arrived...  If it were up to me, I would ship any stringed instrument with the strings very low, and especially a mandolin which has such heavy tension on the strings, but I see no damage or negative results of that with this instrument at this time... 

This MKLFSTB looks really perfect.  No visual indication of reason for restock.  No missing parts.  I've carefully examined the top and the rest of the wood and I see no cracks or other important flaws.  No rattles.  It looks really nice.  I've tuned it up and adjusted the action with the bridge thumbscrews and the intonation.  I've played it for about an hour; this mandolin also plays and sounds very good.

As I've seen with each of the other two orders, there are a few high frets above the 12th fret.  So this mandolin will also require fret leveling and dressing if anyone playing it wants to play above the 12th fret -- unless the action can be very high.

That said, I have talked with the person I'm gifting this to and he wants to do his own setup.  So happily, with this mandolin, the fretwork is not my worry. 

But that's the only real flaw that I can see with this mandolin -- I would say this MKLFSTB is in the best out-of-box condition of the three that I have received.

-- Don

----------


## farmerjones

Didn't take long to get mine. 
Carton within a carton. I don't believe it was repacked. Checked the neck. Checked the tune buttons for tight. (careful not to over-tighten) Put the bridge in the proper place, and pulled the strings up to pitch. It looked like I could lower the bridge a little so I did.
Good finish. Didn't remember the matte finish spec., but that's fine.  That way I don't have to knock down .030 of high gloss dip.
Played for 30 minutes. This morning it was still in tune. So the strings must've settled a bit. I rate it right down the middle, but it's only going to get better. 
Y'know, we should probably have a MKLFSTB group or at least a review thread over in the video section.

----------

dhergert, 

FLATROCK HILL

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> Didn't take long to get mine.


Mine either. I pulled the trigger shortly after you did. Hard to believe that free shipping only took two and a half business days. 
 Same unpacking experience as yours too. I adjusted the bridge position just a tad and lowered the saddle a bit. The bridge could definitely stand to be fitted a bit better to the top. Nut seems to be fine. Other than that, I see no issues whatsoever. No buzzing, frets seem level and plays in tune up to the 12th, no problem. 

An hour of playing it without a finger-rest put a shiny 'pinky-spot' on the matte finish. I went ahead and polished the rest of it out. 
Very nice flamed maple matched two piece back. I have no idea what would have caused it to be labeled a 'restock' item. 

 Well worth the money. I don't see how these can be built, sold and shipped for a buck ninety nine.

----------

dhergert, 

farmerjones

----------


## Nick Gellie

> Mine either. I pulled the trigger shortly after you did. Hard to believe that free shipping only took two and a half business days. 
>  Same unpacking experience as yours too. I adjusted the bridge position just a tad and lowered the saddle a bit. The bridge could definitely stand to be fitted a bit better to the top. Nut seems to be fine. Other than that, I see no issues whatsoever. No buzzing, frets seem level and plays in tune up to the 12th, no problem. 
> 
> An hour of playing it without a finger-rest put a shiny 'pinky-spot' on the matte finish. I went ahead and polished the rest of it out. 
> Very nice flamed maple matched two piece back. I have no idea what would have caused it to be labeled a 'restock' item. 
> 
>  Well worth the money. I don't see how these can be built, sold and shipped for a buck ninety nine.


Well how it did sound?  Give us your take on the tone.

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## Nick Gellie

It would be great if you could all post pics and sound clips what they look and like.

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## FLATROCK HILL

> Well how it did sound?  Give us your take on the tone.


As far as 'tone', I guess I would concur with farmerjones. Pretty much down the middle. By that I mean that I've heard better, but I've heard much worse. I've been fortunate enough to have had the opportunity to sample some of the finest, high-end mandolins ever built. This ain't one of them. On the other hand, I've tried out just about every music store Fender, Gretsch, Washburn, Morgan Monroe etc, in search of a decent sounding low-budget 'F' model with disappointing results. This M.K. blows them all away. It has a much bigger, fuller sound than I've heard in a low dollar 'F' style mandolin. 

I played it for another hour or so this morning. It does not lack in volume despite the bridge not making perfect contact. It's pretty well balanced I would say but does favor the treble side in sustain (if you like sustain) and resonance. Not tinny or shrill. The 'A' and 'E's strings really ring and the fretted 'G' note (15th fret on 'E' string is loud, clear and right on pitch). 

Chop chords are decent too, with the 'C' and 'G' chops having the best 'thunk'. The box itself seems to be tuned to a 'D' note. 




> It would be great if you could all post pics and sound clips what they look and like.


I'm sorry, but I do not have the know-how to post a video or sound-clip. I don't put too much stock in those things anyway. Or for that matter, other peoples opinions (even my own!) about what sounds good or not. I hesitated to chime in on the 'tone' issue for that reason. I can't even guess how others might evaluate _ this particular_ M.K. and I'm sure there will be a lot of variance from one to the next. You asked though Nick, so I gave it a shot.

----------

dhergert, 

farmerjones, 

MrYikes

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## dhergert

I agree about being strong on the treble side.  The DA EXP74s on these mandolins tend to do that.  

I've restrung two of the three MKLFSTBs that I've ordered (mine and one of the others) with EFT74 FlatTops and the balance has been much better.  I had been using FlatTops on my F9 and really like how they sound on it, so that's why I thought to use them on the MKs too.

I really don't like the brightness of new strings of any kind, but because I wanted to compare the general tone and volume of my F9 with those characteristics of my MK, I also put new EFT74s on the F9.  This is after I did a complete setup on my MK, including fret leveling and dressing, bridge seating and adjusting string spacing and position for intonation, nut adjusting for string spacing and string height, re-stringing with FlatTops and generally snugging up everything that could be loose or could become loose.  

After this setup work and after about half-a-dozen hours of playing both instruments, the F9 has subtly more woody sound, some volume compression and a muted resonance that we usually associate with Gibson F-style mandolins.  But the MK is not far from that at all.  With the same FlatTops at about the same string usage-age, to my ears these mandolins sound very similar.  

My wife, who has played and sung bluegrass/roots style music with me in a number of bands for about 45 years and who has a pretty good ear, has difficulty telling which mandolin I'm playing.  The other MK that I did the same setup work as mine with, including putting FlatTops on it, was just about the same as far as general tone and volume characteristics are concerned.  The new owners of the two other MKs that I ordered have both generally remarked about how good the tone and volume are for these new instruments.

Like any instruments, the players of these MK mandolins will need to learn the best ways to pull tone from them.  I think that's the biggest reason that my wife has trouble knowing which mandolin I am playing -- I play and pull tone from my F9 and my MK similarly.

-- Don

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farmerjones, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

MrYikes

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## farmerjones

Great review Don! Thanks again.
I take it, you didn't buff it with carnuba or anything else, as you didn't mention it. 
I think I'm incline to do something, as the oils in my hand will work on just one spot. If the rest is somehow treated a bit it wouldn't show so much.

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dhergert

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## Ellsdemon

One thing I've noticed is a difference in sound with the A strings.  The first problem is my beginner ears which might be the root of the problem.  The A strings sound different from the others, almost not sharp enough compared to the G,D and E's.  Is this something that others have noticed and fixed? Is this typical of a better quality mandolin compared to my first one (cheapo from Guitar Center from 5+ years ago) and gives it unique sound? Or is this something that needs to be addressed from a Luthier? I wish I could describe it better but there is something different in the tone that they produce but it's still tuned to A tone.  

But, overall I'm very happy that I got this and feel this is a great step from my previous mandolin.  Can't thank you all enough for putting this up on message boards.

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MrYikes

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## FLATROCK HILL

Ellsdemon, Hard to tell exactly what your 'A' string issue is. I would think though by your description it might be either an issue with the nut or saddle. Both of those should be cut so as to drop away sharply/cleanly from the strings. I would not be too concerned; I'd bet that it can be remedied with a good set-up.

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## dhergert

I'm a real stickler for clean instruments, including the strings.  After playing and before putting any of my instruments back into their cases, I gently apply a little light oil based cleaning solution to all reachable areas of the instrument (especially skin-contact areas, including the strings).  I apply this directly with my fingers, and then I immediately wipe it away so it doesn't have time to sink deeply into any unfinished wood surfaces.  On the MK's polyester matte finish this removes skin oils and other grunge that might collect and it tends to even out the visual affect of the matte finish.  

I've done this for decades with banjos, mandolins and guitars and it has kept them in very nice condition.  From talking with a few of my friends in large scale instrument manufacturing, the same cleaning method is used in many factories before the instruments go out the door.

The polyester matte finish on the MKLFSTB models probably won't gloss up as quickly as a lacquer or varnish matte finish does.  Polyester tends to be harder.  At least on the top of the mandolin, this polyester matte also seems to be a very thin finish.

-- Don




> Great review Don! Thanks again.
> I take it, you didn't buff it with carnuba or anything else, as you didn't mention it. 
> I think I'm incline to do something, as the oils in my hand will work on just one spot. If the rest is somehow treated a bit it wouldn't show so much.

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MrYikes

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## FLATROCK HILL

> The polyester matte finish on the MKLFSTB models probably won't gloss up as quickly as a lacquer or varnish matte finish does.  Polyester tends to be harder.  At least on the top of the mandolin, this polyester matte also seems to be a very thin finish.-- Don


Yup, I would say it is thin. As I mentioned earlier a short time playing it and my pinky had already polished up a small area to quite a shine. I don't plant; it's just from brushing on it. 
The matte does appear to be a thin top-coat. It masks the fact that the finish-sanding wasn't done quite as diligently as say...an Ellis might have been :Wink: . I do like the somewhat distressed look of it though!

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dhergert, 

MrYikes

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## Ellsdemon

After @flatrock Hill suggestions, I headed over to the local shop that specializes in wooden instruments.  After looking at it and playing with the bridge a bit.  His only other issue was that the nut and that the strings sit a bit too high.  He suggested that I file them down the groves a bit with a beveled towards the head.  Overall he thought it was in fine condition and the different tone I was getting from the A string that I wrote about prior was most likely just me.  

This visit reassured me that this was a great pick up at a great price.  As I've said before, thank you

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MrYikes

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## dhergert

Yesterday I dropped the hammer on ordering a full-size pickguard, an armrest and a toneguard for my MK.  I have these on my F9 and as I play the MK more and more, I am realizing how much I like the  playing geometry and that these bolt-on parts provide, not to mention possible tone and volume improvements.

The big thing that was holding me back was cost; my goal in having the MK as a backup/travel mandolin was to not feel bad if it was lost or destroyed, and, I was having trouble justifying having more money in bolt-on parts than I have in the mandolin.  In particular the pickguard that I was looking at was nearly $200.  But Fox-Guitars.com has them for less than half of that with shipping.  

I actually play better with the playing geometry that these parts provide...  I like the angles that I take with the pick better, and I seem to be able to shift into tremolo more naturally and easily with my arm and hand elevated above the top on the armrest and pickguard.  And philosophically I like the potential of better tone and volume with nothing restricting the vibration of the top, back and sides.

These parts should be in hand sometime next week.  We'll see how it all works out.

-- Don

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MrYikes

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## Nick Gellie

Don,

You can get a Mclung pick guard for $45-$55.  They are very good quality.

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dhergert

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## MrYikes

For everyone:  You have had the MK mandolin for a week now.  How is it?  Anything changing?  Opening up?  Do you still like it?  Inquiring minds want to know...

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## dhergert

Well, here's MK with my F9.  My MK got a pickguard, armrest and toneguard this evening, so it is setup the same as my F9 now (including strings, action, etc.). So now it will function very nicely as the F9's backup/travel mando, which was my intent in buying the MK.



With the pickguard, armrest and toneguard, the MK feels almost identical to my F9.  They all help make the mandolin free-vibrating so they should theoretically contribute to tone and volume.  They also will protect the MK, and they elevate my picking arm and hand just as they do with my F9, so my pick attack is also just about the same as the F9.

I'm still getting used to the scooped florida, the F9 fingerboard stops at fret 20 and I'm used to that, so I'm still hearing florida-clicking with the flatpick.  But I'm conciously working on that, especially now that the new hardware is installed and I expect to get rid of the clicking in a short while. 

Tone wise, the MK is still a little brighter and it still has a little more sustain than the F9 (again, with the same strings and string-age).  I've mentioned this before, but I suspect the ABS nut, the poly finish and the heavy cast tailpiece contribute to this.

The tone of the F9 still has a bit more body, more bass and better balance between bass and treble, and it's still also slightly louder.  

I can tell the differences in tone and volume, but it is very subtle.  My wife cannot tell the difference in a blind test.

Anyway, I'm a happy camper, I'd do this all again in a moment if I needed to choose again.

Btw, every few days I hear from one or both of the friends that I ordered the same mandolins for.  They're both loving their MKs also.

-- Don

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Ellsdemon, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

MrYikes, 

Verne Andru

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## MikeEdgerton

Amazingly enough the link in the original post still takes you to the page with the same price.

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dhergert

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## farmerjones

I couldn't take it, I got out my steel wool and knocked down the tooth (a term if it were a primer coat).
On the back, I rubbed it with tung oil. If I ever change strings I may do it to the front. Anything extreme doesn't look esthetically pleasing to me. The extreme matte finish is just as bad as the "dipped in jelly" high gloss finish. This is just me. I feel I can experiment on a semi-cheap mandolin at little or no penalty. Same reason I learned set up (and neck repair) on my Rogue mandolins years ago. Tone? It sounds great. Plays great. I've yet to put it up against my Eastman 515. It's a bit unfair. No Mike, I'm not going for two.  :Cool:

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dhergert, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

MikeEdgerton, 

MrYikes

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## Jacob

Tightened the truss rod and repositioned the bridge. Plays easily and sounds great. Much more volume than expected. B stock? Yes. The Gulf Coast of Florida seems to have sustained some hurricane damage. Rough spaces where pieces of binding meet and glue dripped down onto the wood below the binding. Still, a lot of bang for the buck.

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dhergert, 

MrYikes

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## dhergert

> I couldn't take it, ...


That's sort of how it was with me and the armrest, pickguard and toneguard.  I really didn't want to change the MK, but these add-ons really do change my playing geometry enough that I felt I needed them.




> Plays great. I've yet to put it up against my Eastman 515. It's a bit unfair.


I think it just goes to show that with solid wood and a little carving of the top -- and a very detailed setup -- you can get some pretty high quality tone and volume combined with great playability.  If there were another name in the MK's peghead and maybe just a little more visual quality, these might be moderately expensive instruments.  From that standpoint, comparing their tone, volume and playability with some nice mandolins is pretty fair, really; personally, I wouldn't be ashamed to perform on stage with mine.

You can always put tape over the peghead logo.  :Laughing: 




> No Mike, I'm not going for two.


Christmas time's a coming...

 :Mandosmiley: 

-- Don

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farmerjones

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## MrYikes

Hi.  I received mine today.  It was definitely a repack.  It was in tune, though lower than 440.  One G string looks a little rusted or corroded.  The E strings sit about 2mm into the bridge, the A strings half that, G and D are okay.  The bridge treble foot is only touching 1/2 inch, but that part of the bridge looks cracked.  It looks like it has been glued.  There is a smudge on the back where someone touched it while wet (just a thumb smudge).  I did get the tool bag, but it was empty.  Somebody needed it more than me I guess.  Someone tell me what kind of tool it is.  I was not expecting the head to be that heavy; not a problem just unexpected.  Oh and there is a coffee stain inside.
I played Godfather Theme (badly), and the wife said it sounded good,,,I thought so too.

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## dhergert

Glad you received yours, although I'm sorry it's a bit worn already.  Remember that MF does have the 45 day return policy -- for any reason.

But, if it sounds good, and especially if it plays well -- in particular if it's already been setup -- you might really want to keep it.  

How is the fretwork above the 12th fret?

Ohh, and the tool is simply an allen wrench for the truss rod.  Not sure the size but very likely it's metric.

-- Don

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MrYikes

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## re simmers

Farmer jones,
Did you take 0000 steel wool and tung oil to the back only?   Are you happy with it?   I've gotta do something.   It looks and feels like graphite!
Bob

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## MrYikes

The g string is just a little flat at the 12th, the other strings are dead on.  A straight edge shows space from the 2nd fret to the 12th.  At the 12th, the G has .58 space to the string, the e has .65.  At the nut the G has .20 and the E has .11
I don't want to give the impression that I'm unhappy with this mandolin,  I think it's great and a very good value.
Just played Home on the Range and My Way; sounded pretty good to me.

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## Mike Stewart

> For everyone:  You have had the MK mandolin for a week now.  How is it?  Anything changing?  Opening up?  Do you still like it?  Inquiring minds want to know...


I like mine well enough to consider buying a second one. Not that I will, because I don't know what I'd do with it, but it's that much of a screamin' deal, IMO. 14th fret is high, finish has a few runs that were visible in the right light (some carnuba wax fixed that), and someone has already posted a pic of the rough finish work on places like the Florida and (on mine) the scroll. Truss rod was way loose, and it needed the usual setup work. With a few hours of time invested, it's now a nice little player. 

That said, it punches above its weight. Sounds pretty good (but not great; lacks a certain je ne sais pas), plays as nicely as anything I've got in the house (a lot of which comes down to setup, of course). But in summary, whereas my old "beater" Kentucky mostly stayed in its case between camping trips, the MK sits out with the rest of the instruments and I'm as likely to grab it as I am any of the other mandolins (not that I have anything particularly nice).

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MrYikes

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## Mike Stewart

> The g string is just a little flat at the 12th, the other strings are dead on.  A straight edge shows space from the 2nd fret to the 12th.  At the 12th, the G has .58 space to the string, the e has .65.  At the nut the G has .20 and the E has .11


I assume you know that these need work out the box. Tighten the truss rod (mine was loose enough that I could visibly see that it needed tightening). Move the bridge around and play with thumb wheels, should be good to go. (I suppose the neck could be warped, but no one has reported that problem yet.)

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MrYikes

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## dhergert

Very good...  

My question regarding the frets above the 12th fret was more wondering if there were any high frets -- meaning as you play, you would fret a note above the 12th fret and find that it produces a note or possibly two notes higher than you would expect to hear, or that even with good finger pressure and positioning, there is serious ringing with the note.  This would indicate that a fret is high and that the frets need leveling and dressing.  

Fret leveling and dressing is something which was needed with all three of the MKLFSTB mandolins that I've handled so far.  It is a technical job that is usually a part of a more detailed setup on a mandolin.

That said, it is very possible that your mandolin doesn't have high frets, or that if it did ever, that they have been properly leveled and dressed already.

The key thing with these restock MKLFSTB mandolins is that after a good setup, they sound very good and they play quite well, perhaps despite some visual flaws.  It sounds like you're hearing and seeing that with yours, which is excellent.  I wish you great times with it!

 :Mandosmiley: 

-- Don




> ...
> I don't want to give the impression that I'm unhappy with this mandolin,  I think it's great and a very good value.
> Just played Home on the Range and My Way; sounded pretty good to me.

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MrYikes

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## farmerjones

> Farmer jones,
> Did you take 0000 steel wool and tung oil to the back only?   Are you happy with it?   I've gotta do something.   It looks and feels like graphite!
> Bob


I don't have the steel wool box to double check, but it's finer than a scotchbrite. I feared with a scotchbrite, i would see nothing but lines. Steel wool, then a dry cotton cloth, then a cotton cloth dipped in tung oil. Then buffed with another dry cotton cloth the next day. I may do another coat. I will probably do it when I do the top and change strings (in a year). 

Just for the record, I got out my MD615 (sorry, not a 515) and A/B tested this morning. I always thought the Eastman body size was a few mm smaller than average. They are virtually identical in size. This is not to say they're both smaller than a true F5, I don't know. Very close in action and relief. Old J74s of the Eastman. Surprisingly similar, in tone. The MK is a bit brighter. I can imagine it could very well be the strings.

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MrYikes

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## MrYikes

farmer jones, do you get tung oil at a big box store or where???  I have always used boiled linseed oil around the house, but now I would like to get some tung oil.

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## Verne Andru

I do not need another mandolin, so I justified it by having it sent to my brothers place in another State - that way I wouldn't have to bring one along when I visit. I probably won't be down there until next summer but don't think there should be any major concerns, based on what I'm seeing in this thread.

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## dhergert

That should be pretty fun, Verne...  

Just remember to bring your setup tools!  

I suspect you'll find that once setup, these mandolins sound very good and play very nicely.

-- Don

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Verne Andru

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## Consecon

I have one of these mandolins. I love it.
My review is on the Musicians friend site as County Picker.

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## mandolinstew

I'd like to go in the store and play the other MK's they have for $399 and $369

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## MikeEdgerton

One month later and the link still works.

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dhergert

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## multidon

Could it be that the link still works, and will continue to work, because they have found this to be an economical method of unloading their B-stock?

It's not like their factory workers have suddenly started making zero mistakes. Mistakes will continue to be made, and any company would have to figure out a way to cut their losses.

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## MikeEdgerton

Who knows? It appears they finally shipped at least one repack.

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## dhergert

It's interesting...  

B-stock or not, in talking to the founder of the Michael Kelly company, he has made it clear that they consider these restocks new, and they cover them with their standard 2-year warranty.  And having worked with them in getting a missing tuner button screw, it seems pretty clear to me that they want their customers happy.

Combine that with the MF 45-day return policy, these instruments are a pretty safe bet.

The important thing to remember is that a detailed setup is required.  If you can take care of that yourself these mandolins are a pretty amazing deal.  All three of the restock MKLFSTB mandolins that I've ordered have become excellent instruments after setup.  In fact, I'd consider them at or near pro quality as far as sound and playability are concerned, leaving the random visual flaws as the only remaining possible concerns...  

My MK is great, and the two people that I ordered the other two mandolins for are also extremely pleased.  I'd definately order more of them if I needed more.

-- Don

P.S.  They make a wonderful gift at this price!

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## Drew Streip

> One month later and the link still works.


Well, I just clicked and it's listed at $299 now. Shame, because in combination with downloading Rob's setup eBook, I was about to get myself a new mando! 

Out of curiosity, I have an older Asian-made A-style mandolin that needs serious setup work (and new frets, I suspect, because at least one is not fully in its slot). The bridge/saddle interface has developed a lean/offset. There's a moderate indentation in the soundboard under the bridge. 

Given that you can buy a Rogue A for $50, is there _any_ reason for me to bother trying to spruce up my old one? I'd love to learn to do a refret, but the tools and materials (and time) will far exceed $50 --- and even at $300, it sounds like the MK would be a more economical choice.

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## MikeEdgerton

This morning it was still $199.00. Now it's $299.00. What a difference a few hours makes.  :Cool:

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## dhergert

Interesting.  The webpage also no longer says restock.  

The party's over.   :Crying: 

Probably still a good deal at $299, but they'd better be in really good shape -- including no high frets and no other serious flaws.

-- Don

----------

MikeEdgerton

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## MrYikes

That happened to me just before I bought mine, but after a couple of hours the 199 price returned and I bought one.  At that time I was told there were 10 left.
And thank you Don, for the info.  I have emailed MK about my bridge and I hope they will allow me to buy a new one.  My mandolin now sits with the strings loose and unplayable.  So I'll just pass the time playing cello.
 BTW, I found that two wine corks under the strings (one on the fingerboard and one next to the tailpiece) gives you plenty of working room without having to remove the strings.

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dhergert

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## dhergert

Ok, so now that the dust has settled a bit, I have a question...

A liittle background summary: I've ordered and handled three of these $199 MKLFSTB mandolins, two for other people and one for myself, and once well-setup and wearing new strings, all of them have sounded and played great.  The new owners of the two are loving theirs, and both have made comments that their MKLFSTB mandolins compare very well to the other much more pricey mandolins that they've had.  

The $199 MKLFSTB that I've kept is no exception, it is setup the way I like a mandolin to be setup with my strings of choice.  I've been comparing it with my 2002 Gibson F9 for a number of weeks now -- the F9 also wearing the same kind of fresh strings -- and honestly they both play so similarly and both sound so good that I'm having trouble objectively deciding which one I want to play more. 

I guess I'm wondering if anyone else is having the same thoughts arise...

So, the question...  Of those of you who have gotten a $199 MKLFSTB mandolin and who also have one or more mandolins that you consider would be valued either now or when new in the ~$3K+ retail price range, how does your $199 MKLFSTB compare in tone and volume, and if it has been setup to your liking, how does it compare in playability?

-- Don

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## Mike Stewart

> Ohh, and the tool is simply an allen wrench for the truss rod.  Not sure the size but very likely it's metric.


Mine has "4mm" stamped on it. Looks about 4mm from eyeballing it. Make sure anything purchased has a good length to the long side, it's a bit of a reach to get to the rod.

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dhergert, 

MrYikes

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## Bernie Daniel

It appears that they are now $299 mandolins?

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## dhergert

Yes, but now these MKLFSTB mandolins are not restock items.  So if someone is getting one at $299, they can be more demanding.

-- Don

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## Bernie Daniel

> Ok, so now that the dust has settled a bit, I have a question...
> 
> A liittle background summary: I've ordered and handled three of these $199 MKLFSTB mandolins, two for other people and one for myself, and once well-setup and wearing new strings, all of them have sounded and played great.  The new owners of the two are loving theirs, and both have made comments that their MKLFSTB mandolins compare very well to the other much more pricey mandolins that they've had.  
> 
> The $199 MKLFSTB that I've kept is no exception, it is setup the way I like a mandolin to be setup with my strings of choice.  I've been comparing it with my 2002 Gibson F9 for a number of weeks now -- the F9 also wearing the same kind of fresh strings -- and honestly they both play so similarly and both sound so good that I'm having trouble objectively deciding which one I want to play more. 
> 
> I guess I'm wondering if anyone else is having the same thoughts arise...
> 
> So, the question...  Of those of you who have gotten a $199 MKLFSTB mandolin and who also have one or more mandolins that you consider would be valued either now or when new in the ~$3K+ retail price range, how does your $199 MKLFSTB compare in tone and volume, and if it has been setup to your liking, how does it compare in playability?
> ...


This may not be the answer you expected.  I'll preface to my comment:  

Having gone through about a couple dozen F-5 style mandolins over the years I am convinced that you can't easily make rational comparative decisions about mandolin sounds when you know what you are playing.  Even switching back and forth unless the difference is huge. 

I know that sounds a little weird but your *eyes* play a huge role in what you hear -- because experience preconditions you to hear what you expect.  Look up the "McGurke effect" on YouTube for a good example of this.

Related complications. Many people swear a mandolin opens up with use -- but this has never been proven in blind test.  Some say it sounds better after playing it for 30 minutes -- compared to how it sounded when they started picking. 

Personally I doubt it. I think it is far more likely that they have themselves have "adapted" to the sound of the mandolin or as their hands warmup they get a little more tone out of the instrument?  This could be "proven" or at least subject to rational objective analysis by recording the same tune etc play at different stages of the "warming up", mixing them, and then seeing if they (or anyone) can tell the difference -- but no one ever does it as far as I know anyway.

So my comment is this -- test the two mandolins scientifically (i.e., objectively). 

Put on a blindfold or close your eyes and have your wife randomly give you the Gibson and the MK mandolins (take off things that would allow ready tactile identification e.g., straps, arm rests, pick guards). 

Play a few tune on both mandolins -- maybe doing this for 3 to 5 "cycles" of your wife taking and giving mandolins to you randomly so you completely lose track of what you are playing.  Each time you complete a tune give a verb score (1 to 10) on the mandolin's "tone" and "playability".  Your wife can record the mandolin and the scores and you'll have your "ranking" without the "benefit" of you sense of vision.   

Also you can record the entire session on a recorder with good fidelity.  In the end play it back and see what conclusions you can reach about the two mandolins when you don't know what you are playing, and when you hear it from the vantage point of the the listener instead of the player.   

For sure if you it let us know how it turned out!    :Mandosmiley:

----------

dhergert, 

fox

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## MrYikes

I am too new to mandolin to comment, but I will anyway.  One of my violins is now 5 years old, it is the best model of a cheap line of violins, factory made.  It is dark and heavy.  It sounded pretty good.  Then on December 15, 2015, it opened up.  It was as though I was playing through an amplifier.  It really was that loud.  But the tone was rather sterile, not quite as pleasant,,nothing to fall in love with.
Humidity, or the lack of humidity I should say was the cause of the change.  It had finally dried out.  Now through the summer (Indiana) it has lots of humidity and the tone has turned to very pleasant and appealing, but it still has the volume.  Hard, dried wood has a different effect than otherwise.
I tried microwaving some violin bridges to dry them, which did work, but the tonal changes I was trying to achieve did not happen.  It just takes time.

----------

dhergert, 

Ellsdemon

----------


## multidon

4mm Allen wrench is pretty much standard for import instruments. Increasingly, it is becoming a standard for certain USA instrument makers as some have started using the imported truss rods in their construction.4mm is becoming a "must have" fort the truss rod wrench collection.

Hmm. 200 dollars for a MK and 4600 for a Gibson F9. And set up the same way, they are that similar in feel and sound? Kind of makes you wonder if it's worth 4400 dollars to have the "right" name on the headstock, doesn't it?

----------

dhergert, 

Ellsdemon

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## Jeff Mando

> Hmm. 200 dollars for a MK and 4600 for a Gibson F9. And set up the same way, they are that similar in feel and sound? Kind of makes you wonder if it's worth 4400 dollars to have the "right" name on the headstock, doesn't it?


My guess would be that the cheap stuff has gotten better and better over the years and the name brand stuff has probably reached a plateau.  Same with guitars, I'm always amazed at how playable some of the $100-300 instruments are nowadays -- not so when I was a kid a mere 50+ years ago!

----------

dhergert

----------


## MrYikes

My experience with the people at Michael Kelly Guitars was the same as Don's.  I wrote an email on Friday and received a response from the founder on Friday evening, a response from Quality Control on Saturday morning, Sunday afternoon and again on Monday morning telling me the part was in the mail and was being supplied at no cost to me.
The high quality of the product and the high quality of the people behind the product tells me that MK mandolins will rise in consumer acceptance.
Here is a pic of the bridge with which I had issues.

----------

dhergert

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## Bernie Daniel

> .....Hmm. 200 dollars for a MK and 4600 for a Gibson F9. And set up the same way, they are that similar in feel and sound? Kind of makes you wonder if it's worth 4400 dollars to have the "right" name on the headstock, doesn't it?


Can't argue with that - which is why I say we ought to start doing more objective (blind? scientific? unbiased?) testing of mandolin tone, "playability", projection etc.

----------

dhergert

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## Willie Poole

As many of you know I have been playing a mandolin for a good many years and in my mind I do believe they open up when played, I played one mandolin for many years and loved the sound of it but then I bought a newer one and started playing it as my number one instrument at all of our shows and the older one just hung on the wall for a long time then one day I got it down and started playing it and did not like the sound of it and was wondering what I could do to it to get to sounding like it did in the past, a few people suggested that I just play it and see what happens, so for about two weeks I played it every night for at least an hour and also played some on the newer mandolin and pretty soon the older one started sounding a lot like it did in the past, so from that I gather that  mandolins do "open up" if played a lot...then one day I recorded four mandolins and although I knew which ones were which I let others listen to the recording and asked which one they preferred and some of them said that i as joking around that all of the recordings were the same mandolin.....Here on the Cafe there have been persons that played three mandolins for a sound test and told what brand names they were recording and wanted us to guess which ones were which, they got all kinds of answers and I don`t think any of them were correct...Some times I am not satisfied with what my mandolin sounds like and the other members in the band say it sounds fine, just like always....From what I have heard wood does tend to open the grain when vibrated so if that is true then it has to affect the sound.....I am sure some of the people will chime in and explain it a lot better than I can...

      Willie

----------

dhergert

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## dhergert

I appreciate all the thoughts shared about this...

You have captured my concerns about value versus cost.  I've been around this kind of discussion before in the banjo world, although honestly there is no $199 equivalent to these MK mandolins in the banjo world.  At least to my current knowledge, it costs at least a couple of thousand dollars to get into tone and volume competition with the big names among banjos.

To be fair, there are some subtle tone differences that I'm picking up between my F9 and my MK.  The F9 is better balanced among all the strings and there is a tone/volume quality that the F9 produces -- perhaps compression -- that the MK doesn't produce.  The MK is more open in tone, with more sustain and resonance.  I've been having my son chop on both mandolins a bit -- on first blast I feel like the MK is louder, but then when the F9 chop comes around there's that compression and I feel it is louder, but sort of reserved.  While trying to write this I'm reminded how tough it is to describe tone qualities in words. 

From a playability standpoint there are also some differences...  I do like the larger frets on the MK, the F9 has the old small mando-style frets.  The MK is advertised as having a radiused fingerboard, but I have not seen that in the 3 MK mandolins that I've worked with, so no difference there with the F9 which is also not radiused.  The F9 has a rounded V neck profile, while the MK has a round neck profile.  I actually prefer the MK profile, it's easier on my thumb.  Maybe that comfort difference is the profile difference, but the MK neck is also 1/8th" thicker and 1/8th" wider at the first fret than the F9 neck, so all the dimensions may all work together to be more comfortable for me to play (coming from a banjo playing standpoint).

As has been discussed before, the MK does have some physical differences from my F9 also...  It has the wider frets as discussed earlier.  It has a rosewood fingerboard and a rosewood bridge.  It has a hard poly finish.  It has an ABS nut.  It has a heavy, cast tailpiece.  It has a wider, thicker neck.  In normal playing I'm guessing that a lot of the difference in tone and sustain is due to the tailpiece, as we've heard about similar differences with heavy tailpieces with other mandolins.  In the banjo realm, there are also serious considerations for differences in tone due to the woods used for the fingerboard and bridge and also due to the bulk of the neck, so those may also have some effect.

I've heard the difference between a nice Taylor guitar and a nice Martin guitar...  And I've heard the difference between a nice Deering banjo and a nice Gibson banjo.  I think I would categorize the tone and volume differences between the MK and my F9 in those same terms.  Very similar, but slightly different in tone, not necessarily one better than the other, except as indicated by personal tastes.

The difference in cost though, is not as easy to reconcile.  To be fair, I am a Gibson fan for mandolins as well as for banjos, so the name itself does hold some value for me.  And without addressing volume differences, if you have a good Gibson banjo, very few other banjos can produce even near the same tone.  And since I've had the F9 starting in 2012, I've also grown to recognize the Gibson part of the tone from this instrument that is different from many other brands.  But these differences are very subtle, subtle enough that most non-exposed listeners would not recognize the difference.  As a Gibson F-style mandolin owner and casual enthusiast, speaking with a little bit of embarrassment, the MK is much more close to the F9 in volume and tone than the MK's $199 price deserves.

-- Don

P.S.  Don and Mike, thanks for specifying 4mm as the truss rod Allen wrench size.

P.P.S.  Bernie, thanks for the suggestions for blind testing.  I've essentially been doing that with my wife and son, who both have lots of musical experience, as well as with the two new owners of the other MKs that I've provided for them.

P.P.S.  MrYikes, thanks for letting us know about your bridge, I'm really GLAD that MK service is treating you well too!

----------

MrYikes

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## MrYikes

So I'm trying to understand the progression of Mandolins. 
It has to start with Rogue.  I think Indiana, Savannah, and a few other names are the same product.  A veneered box.
Then to Rover.
Then to Kentucky, Washburn.
Is this right?  More?

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## dhergert

I can't really address that...  

My route started with a Suzuki taterbug, which I played exclusively from the mid '70s until 2012 when I got the F9 in a trade.  And then the recent MK purchase, which I have purposed to be a traveling/backup F-style mandolin.  So my progression has been sort of confused. 

-- Don

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## Mike Stewart

> The MK is advertised as having a radiused fingerboard, but I have not seen that in the 3 MK mandolins that I've worked with, so no difference there with the F9 which is also not radiuses.


The radius is there, but it's very slight. As a relative newcomer to the mando, I don't know that the small radius is even enough to make a difference in playability. But having played only a small number of mandolins, maybe all radiused fretboards are like that for all I know.  :Smile:  But the MK site lists the radius at 12", so yeah, it's less than most.

And speaking of the MK site, as I was looking up the specs on $199 version I noticed that they no longer list it on their site. They just have the Elegante and Dragonfly now. So the "restock" may very well have been an attempt to get rid of inventory and not actual returned mandolins.

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## Verne Andru

My resonator has a flat fretboard and I can tell a difference moving between it and my Paris Swing, which is radiused. Since the mando fretboard is very narrow, it doesn't matter a ton, but I've found a radius does make shapes that include bar-chord-types just a bit easier to fret. My opinion, FWIW.

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## dhergert

Hmmm, interesting about the radius.  It was imperceptible for me, and I use barre chords all the time.  Well, I'm glad it's there since it is advertised.

And yes, the MK site not only doesn't show the MKLFSTB anymore, you can't find it by searching for it.  So they really wanted it off their site.  That said, these are new mandolins so the 2 year warranty does still apply, according to the founder of the company.  Their customer service is great, it sounds like they are anxious to make sure we're happy with these mandolins.  Plus MF has the 45-day return period.

Btw, MF still has the MKLFSTB models listed "On Sale Today" for $299 this morning, with free shipping (CONUS).

(Clearly, I'm pleased with mine, but you must be getting bored with me by now...   :Smile:  )

-- Don

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## FLATROCK HILL

> Hmmm, interesting about the radius.  It was imperceptible for me, and I use barre chords all the time.  Well, I'm glad it's there since it is advertised.


Mine is flat. Well, I suppose it _may_ be radiused. As with the curvature of the Earth, it's pretty much imperceptible close up. 




> (Clearly, I'm pleased with mine, but you must be getting bored with me by now...   )
> -- Don


I'm happy to hear your thoughts/comments. That is what this place is all about.

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dhergert

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## Mike Stewart

> Mine is flat. Well, I suppose it _may_ be radiused. As with the curvature of the Earth, it's pretty much imperceptible close up.


I can see it looking at the frets, but not the fretboard, and I'll allow for the (slight) possibility that I'm imagining it. Imagine taking a 12" ruler (or don't imagine, and actually do it), swinging an arc that's 1 1/8" wide. That ain't much of a curve. I think that *maybe* I notice a difference with chords versus my other flat, 1 1/8" necks. But that could also be neck profile and what have you, so who knows. Mine plays nicely, that's all that matters.  :Smile:

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dhergert, 

FLATROCK HILL

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## farmerjones

Yes indeed, if the fingerboard is radiused, as the specs states, it's has to be very slight. Half that of the Breedlove Quartz I used to play. Makes me wonder just how sharp the edges would be if the fret board was specified as flat.
Still, I deem the MKFSTB to have a Cult Status!  :Cool: 
As it seems the model is no longer at large, this will in turn push up the scarcity factor. 
I should probably ask for bids now, just in case.  :Smile: 
(No, it doesn't have original finish. IT'S BETTER!)  :Mandosmiley:

----------

dhergert, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

MrYikes

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## Mike Stewart

> As it seems the model is no longer at large, this will in turn push up the scarcity factor.


Yeah, now I wished I bought another one, tucked it away so after I'm gone someone will have the opportunity for that attic find. "Still has to ol' tagger on it; he never even played it."

"Made by the great Chinese woodworking masters of the 21st century, back when 'craftsmanship' actually meant something."

"They only made them for a few years, nearly impossible to find now, so you'll want to jump on this deal."

I mean look at the prices of Stradolins now.  :Smile:

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dhergert, 

MrYikes

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## MikeEdgerton

Every few years we have a good deal on a mandolin that develops cult status  :Cool: 

That last one was a Fullerton.

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dhergert

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## FLATROCK HILL

Thanks again Mike for bringing the link to our attention.

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dhergert

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## farmerjones

> Every few years we have a good deal on a mandolin that develops cult status 
> 
> That last one was a Fullerton.


Was that before or after the Big Muddy?

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## Paul Busman

> Every few years we have a good deal on a mandolin that develops cult status 
> 
> That last one was a Fullerton.


I was lucky enough to get one of those, the Gloucester model F style. For my purposes, it's all the mandolin I'll ever need. It was great as-is, but in exchange for one of my wooden penny whistles, a luthier reworked it with a radius and refret to the fingerboard, Red Henry bridge and now it's really a champ.

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## Chanmandolin

After this thread caught my eye, I purchased one of these mandolins to have around the house and I must say, it's a hell of a deal for 200$ flat. Don't get me wrong, it's no "northfield" but you have to expect that for the price. 

The mandolin has a nice bark and decent tone. I'll say I've never seen a tone guard make as much of a difference as it did on this mandolin. It was night and day. 

For it to just come out of the box, the setup Is decent and the finish work is okay,  but it definitely needs some work on the frets and the nut(and obviously a new set of strings). On mine the truss rod seems fine and shouldn't need much adjustment . I had seen where many of you had problems with the truss rod,  so I was happy to find this not a problem. 

So without going into too much detail, it was a great buy at 200$ and much thanks to Mike for posting the link!

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## MikeEdgerton

> Was that before or after the Big Muddy?


Actually the Big Muddy never got there, the Mid Mo did. It was the predecessor to the Big Muddy. The Fullerton was after the Mid Mo. It was still more money than the Fullerton Gloucester and this one. The Fullerton was basically a giveaway. I think the one I bought was less than $100.00 with the shipping. Like an idiot I sent mine back instead of holding on to it.

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farmerjones

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## dhergert

I just re-read this whole thread.  Quite a journey, and it's actually not over yet -- actually just beginning as far as our new mandolins are concerned.  

Taking just a moment to reflect about what has been done...

Mike, I again want to thank you, you made all these "$199.00 solid F style mandolin"'s visible and really available to us...  And in many other discussions here you're a very active presence, sharing.  I appreciate that and thank you for that too.

And this and everything else that goes on here -- really couldn't have happened anywhere but here at the Mandolin Cafe; Scott, you and all the staff who keep this place running deserve great thanks (and thank$) too.

And everyone else in this discussion who has contributed by sharing their wisdom and their experiences, many thanks to all of you to you also!

I'm guessing that the Michael Kelly Guitar Company, that Musician's Friend and that a number of other companies -- really companies made of people -- who have worked on these MKLFSTB mandolins and on distributing them and possibly on parts or accessories that we've gotten for them, might be also watching this thread -- thank you also!

I can't speak for everyone, but I do know for certain of at least three people whose musical lives have changed for the better because of this particular mandolin, because of this particular discussion, and because of this particular place.

Thanks!

 :Mandosmiley: 

-- Don

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MrYikes

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## MrYikes

And I need to say this to you, Don.  Thank you!
Because of what YOU have said here, because of how you have compared the MK to other mandolins, you have given me the confidence to take this MK anywhere without inferiority, trusting that the MK tone will stand with anyone.  That puts a lot of value into this mandolin.
Now, trusting MK marketing, that's a different story.

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dhergert, 

Nick Gellie

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## imoir

Since the threads are now adjacent, I can no longer resist the urge to post.  I received my MKLFSTB and promptly took it to mt guy to have it set up and had him install the D'Addario Beta Test Nickel Bronze strings I received and I can say after two weeks of playing I absolutely love them both.  Add in the effect of the BC CT55 I also just got and I will be set for a long time.  My vintage Gibson can stay home and be safe.

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MrYikes

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## Jeff Mando

Another cheap thrill I experienced recently was playing a Savannah SA-120 at a local music store, $100, all solid wood and supposedly a carved top.  Anyway, this one played and sounded great.  Way better than I thought it had a right to be!  I checked on eBay and they cost $150 new and seem to sell for $80 used.  Big step up from a Rogue, IMHO.

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MrYikes

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## Bernie Daniel

> ...My vintage Gibson can stay home and be safe.


Another one heads for the dark side --- when will it end?   :Smile:

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## dhergert

Hmmm, resistance is futile...

-- Don

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## Bernie Daniel

> Hmmm, resistance is futile...
> 
> -- Don


So it was said -- but we all know how that turned out.....

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## Nick Gellie

Well Don

As you know I took the plunge and bought one of these for the hell of it.  I received it today.  I was pretty sceptical when I opened the box and looked at the quality of the workmanship.  The nut had a bit chipped out of it on top.  The bridge was sunk in the middle.  The truss rod was not engaged - a relief in one respect.  Minor blemishes in places mainly around the scroll and the headstock and inside the F-holes.

Well here is the surprise!  When I tuned her up and started to play I could not believe the quality of the tone coming out of the instrument.  It was as almost as good as my Pava in many respects.  It is actually has a good rounded sound in the trebles and has very good sustain.  The E strings are strong and resonant, the D and A strings are balanced and the G strings were respectable in the bass department.  The chord chops are good , no difference between those on the Pava and on it.  The intonation was just a tad flat up the neck on most strings but that could be the bridge placement.  There is only one buzz at the 12th string which can be fixed relatively easily with a fret dressing.  Above the 12th fret all the frets played buzz free.  

I do have a spare bridge replacement or I could ask Michael Kelly to send a replacement bridge.  The nut I can fix with some bone shavings and some superglue and then file a bit more.  The slots at the nut could be cut a bit deeper or I could make another nut down the track.  I am not planning to send it back across the ol' Pacific Ocean.  My 8-year-old son is looking for a mandolin and this could be it and I am happy to take it to music festivals.

I don't have any misgivings.  I will record something tomorrow and post it on SoundCloud for the benefit of other cafe members.

----------

dhergert, 

farmerjones

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## MikeEdgerton

*Here's* one on eBay. NFI.

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## JH Murray

Will having such a large batch of B stock go for $200 not drive down the resale value of them?

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## Nick Gellie

Who cares what their resale value of them is given that they play so well.  I did a little refiling of the nut and slots and made it even more playable.  it only took me 15 minutes.

One thing I have noticed they don't have much recurve on the top and yet I counted it ringing for 15-20 sec after I stopped playing,

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dhergert

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## MikeEdgerton

Unless you missed the sale. The regular price of $299.00 isn't all that high.

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## dhergert

Interesting.  It's an older model, it doesn't have the heavy tailpiece (which appears to more likely be welded, not "cast").

I do think the "MK custom tailpiece" has something to do with the tone and sustain that these $199 mandolins put out.  It seems to be pretty consistent.  These are sound machines.

Btw, I agree.  Cult status confirmed.  I expect resale to be in the $1k arena within 2 years, but you'll have to include the $199 receipt from MF (just kidding).

 :Mandosmiley: 

-- Don




> *Here's* one on eBay. NFI.

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## Nick Gellie

I agree Don about its cult status.  I can't believe that a $300 AUD Chinese made mandolin can sound and play almost as well as a $3000 AUD US-made mandolin.  It does not have the finesse and good looks but it does has the sound and playability.

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dhergert

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## Nick Gellie

And one other thing.  This Michael Kelly is a better F5 mandolin than the original Steve Gilchrist F-5 mandolin I had back in 1979.  it plays better and sounds just as good as the Gilchrist even if the Kelly has some cosmetic flaws and has a flat reddish sunburst which to my way of thinking is a bit garish which at least the Gilchrist had some finish character.  My Kelly does not have bad flame on the back.

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dhergert

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## Bernie Daniel

> Who cares what their resale value of them is given that they play so well.  I did a little refiling of the nut and slots and made it even more playable.  it only took me 15 minutes.
> 
> One thing I have noticed they don't have much recurve on the top and yet I counted it ringing for 15-20 sec after I stopped playing,


I agree who cares about the resale value of a $200 mandolin? LOL!

Interesting comment about the "recurve".  Since I have been dabbling in mandolin building I've been wondering myself about the role of the recurve in the sound.

I have seen some excellent sounding mandolins both with and without a pronounced recurve on the top board.   A person would have to go in there with a Hacklinger gaurge to look at the actual graduations though.  Maybe in some cases the recurve (or really the thinning at the edge) is carved into the back side of the top plate?

How does the MK compare with the F-5 you made yourself?

PS what did you mean by the truss rod was not being engaged? You mean the nut was loose or that it spins freely in the slot?

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## Nick Gellie

Bernie I am going to put your question on notice.  In short they play very similarly and sound wise the Kelly is brighter whereas the Gellie has more punch <Removed by Moderator, it's a family forum. Find a better way to say that> to it.  I will do a sound clip comparing four mandolins on Soundcloud.

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## Verne Andru

> Another cheap thrill I experienced recently was playing a Savannah SA-120 at a local music store, $100, all solid wood and supposedly a carved top.  Anyway, this one played and sounded great.  Way better than I thought it had a right to be!  I checked on eBay and they cost $150 new and seem to sell for $80 used.  Big step up from a Rogue, IMHO.


Not meaning to rain on anybody's parade, but I believe Savannah are rebranded Johnsons which are MIC plywood.

My first mando was an F-style Johnson [Savannah] in a feather-lite case Musician's Friend was blowing out for $80. It was a very miserable piece of carp [which is why they were blowing them out], but it did get me started on mando. Since the case alone sells for $80, I didn't feel horrible about it, but there was never any love. Tone was bad, neck joint was separating, fretwork horrible, etc.

I ended up selling it for enough to pay for my Paris Swing, and I kept the case, so it worked out in the end, but a shudder runs up my spine whenever I think about it. I was completely honest with the buyer, but he was so enamored by the F-style, he was willing to suffer it's deficiencies.

Love the Paris Swing.

PS - The case has a pocket for gibblets on the front. The material used for the pocket has "Fender" writing silk-screened on it on the inside of the pocket suggesting they were using recycled materials for the cases. Can't see it from the outside, so it's no problem, but Geesh, whatever happened to paying attention to what you're doing?

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## MikeEdgerton

> The material used for the pocket has "Fender" writing silk-screened on it on the inside of the pocket suggesting they were using recycled materials for the cases.


That's reminiscent of some tin toys I had as a kid. They were made in Japan (it was the 50's) and when it broke and the young boy that I was took it apart I was amazed to see the screened logo of an American beer company on the metal inside. It was apparently made out of large sheets of tin that were destined to become beer cans but must have been rejected for some reason. That's probably the same with your case. The manufacturer has the pieces and adapts them.

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## Jeff Mando

> Not meaning to rain on anybody's parade, but I believe Savannah are rebranded Johnsons which are MIC plywood.


Correct, Savannah is the same as Johnson and nobody wants a Johnson.  The SA-100 is plywood, the SA-120 is solid wood.

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## Chanmandolin

I bought one of these MK mandolins. Question... what or would anything change if I cut/scalloped the end of the fretboard off/down to avoid some of the extra picknoise. This is really the only thing I don't care for with the mandolin. Would the sound of the mandolin change any if I just completely cut it off?

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## dhergert

This is mostly anecdotal, but my Gibson F9 never had a florida.  My MK has the scooped florida like yours.  Except for some very subtle tone and volume differences, they sound just about the same.  My personal take on that is  that the florida doesn't make much if any of a tone or volume difference.

That said, you may want to bind the end of your fingerboard if you cut the florida off, just to dress the end up.  You might be able to salvage enough binding from your cut-off florida to bind the end.

Perhaps some of our builders here will have some good suggestions about this.

I had also been bothered by the pick click with my MK's scooped florida, but now that I have a pickguard and armrest -- which I'm used to playing with -- my picking geometry is better and I'm getting no, or at least very little clicking now.  So while I had very casually thought about cutting the florida off my MK's fingerboard, it isn't something I'll do.

I do have to say I like the look of the florida and I can see its use if it is fully fretted, but a scooped one has very little practical use.  I guess you can use it as a finger anchor point for certain pick attacks, but other than that I can't think of what good it is, rather than just cutting the whole thing off or not having one in the first place.  But that's a personal preference thing.

Good luck with this!

-- Don

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## MikeEdgerton

Actually a fully fretted Florida has very little practical use except for super humans with very tiny fingers.

----------

Dave Hanson

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## farmerjones

My Eastman was built with a nicely abbreviated fingerboard. Not squarely cut off, but seems to follow the Florentine motif. 
If it bothered me, I would do that or have it done. But remember it will no longer be original and likely will effect the resale value.  :Wink: 

Wait a minute. Doesn't Ozwald Swaddlegood, of the Grassy Grassers, poster-boy for MK, isn't his Florida cut off? I believe he also glossed the finish up a bit. Yes, that's it. 
So if Ozzy done it, it's Ok!  :Smile:

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## dhergert

I think you made that up.

(I actually googled Ozwald Swaddlegood to make sure.  :Laughing:  )

 :Cool: 

-- Don

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## Verne Andru

Got pics of mine. It's going to be tough waiting until next summer to actually fondle it.

Can't post pics because the upload from computer dialog appears to be broken. Only displays OK/Cancel buttons uploading from a URL. Tried different browsers and same issue. Never had this problem before.

----------

dhergert

----------


## MrYikes

The new bridge arrived (thank you MK) and I took the time to set it up(6 hours).  Thankfully the gears on the tuners held up, because I really gave them a workout.  I set it up with the original strings and it sounded great.  But then I switched to Martin strings (.11 to .34) so that I could practice longer.  I noticed the difference immediately, namely loss of volume and loss of depth of tone so I will put the ej74 back on.  I also noticed how much a tonegard could help with tone and projection.  And I'm thinking about an arm rest.  I'll put off the flat wounds for a while.

----------

dhergert

----------


## dhergert

> Got pics of mine. It's going to be tough waiting until next summer to actually fondle it...


Hmmm, I sense the need for an unexpected visit to your brother's home this holiday season.  It _is_ nice to visit relatives during this time of year.   :Grin: 

Remember to take your setup tools.  I hope your brother enjoys mandolin holiday music.

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## dhergert

> The new bridge arrived (thank you MK) and I took the time to set it up(6 hours)...


Glad that the bridge has arrived and is working nicely.  Really excellent customer support from Michael Kelly.  

Yup, setup takes some time.  That's why the vendors who do a complete setup on mandolins before the instrument leaves their shop deserve great credit for their work.

Regarding tuners, these are Grover, albeit they are probably a licensed product made in China.  But, as a licensed product, I would expect Grover has some quality stipulations to keep their reputation in good form.

Regarding changing strings, that also is a lot of work, and it's a bit of a gamble because we never know how they will sound until after they are installed.

And yes, love those toneguards.  Such an easy tone and volume improvement.

I'm really glad you and everyone seems to be enjoying these mandolins as much as I am.

----------


## Jeff Mando

> *Here's* one on eBay. NFI.


This one is used and already at $98 with 3 days to go, plus figure in the $40 shipping...........I know I'm a cheapskate but seems like a lot to me if you can get a new one for $199 with free shipping.....I'm probably missing something......if it goes for $160 plus the shipping, it will be more than the blowout price.....you may have created a market for this model, Mike!  :Mandosmiley:

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## MikeEdgerton

But you can't get it at $199.00 anymore (unless it's back) and this one has a case as well if I recall. IT is an older model with a few differences.

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

Those of you following this thread know that I bought one (actually two) of these MKs at the original bargain price of $199.00. I was quite pleasantly surprised to see what a nice little mandolin these things were. And although they were sold as 'Restocks', I saw no indication of any reason for the 'Restock' label when mine arrived. I did however, have a few questions about some set-up issues and I ended up talking to Michael Kelly Customer Service. 

*I cannot say enough good things about my experience with them*. They could not have been nicer, more responsive or willing to help address my questions/concerns. 

Michael Kelly Guitars or Mandolins were not at all on my radar until this thread was started by MikeE. Now that I know about them and how they do business, I feel that the least I should do is spread the news. Very favorably impressed!

----------

dhergert, 

farmerjones, 

MrYikes

----------


## MrYikes

I took the MK to a jam last night and had other players try it out.  They all liked it.  But I didn't like what I heard.  The mandolin sounded sour,,definitely had it's own tone that stood out from the other players.  Here at home alone, it sounds great to me.  I had put on Martin (.11-.34) strings and will replace them with the J74s.  But I don't think it was the strings I was hearing.  I'll try it again next week cause maybe it was just me.

----------


## dhergert

> ... The mandolin sounded sour ...


Hmmm, do you think this might be an intonation problem?

----------


## Verne Andru

I bought a 5-string bass years ago the sounded really sour at first. My tech mentioned the factory uses machines to wind the strings and they sometimes get twisted causing them to never really play in tune. I unstrung one string and, sure enough, it untwisted itself and was fine afterwards.

Since you already changed the strings from factory, this may not be your problem. Just pointing out that seemingly random things can cause no end of frustration in the on-going pursuit of tone.

----------

MrYikes

----------


## Willie Poole

I have been following this thread since it started and from what I gather the ones of you that aren`t really sold on this mandolin should get someone that knows what he/she is doing to set them up so that you can get a true impression of what you have, also some folks are easier to please than others and look for different things in a mandolin, some want them for bluegrass some for other types of music...At $199 you surely can afford to spend a few more bucks to make sure it is set up correctly...I know some of you have been playing for a good while and think you know a proper set up but I bet if you did take to a noted luthier he would surprise you with what he finds...

   I`m not saying you aren`t able to do a set up but for little extra money it would prove to be to your advantage to get it done by a professional....Just my 2 cents worth...I didn`t buy one and I don`t know what each one of you got as far as its condition but one thing I do know is that they were not set up before they were shipped to you...

    If any of you live near me here in Md. I would love to set one up for you just to see and know what MK`s are like...I`m sure a good grade bridge and new strings would be needed, a good fitting bridge can really change the sound of a mandolin as well as finding and using the right strings...

     Willie

----------


## dhergert

Willie, these MK bridges have the typical Pacific Rim string compensation (equal but opposite).  Do you have a preference -- do you think the more "Gibson'ish" bridge compensation would help more with intonation?

----------


## Jeff Mando

> But you can't get it at $199.00 anymore .....


Not like we're talking about fluctuations in the price of gold -- it is a USED MK......for Pete's sake!  :Cow: 

Just checked it again, it is up to $157.50 and with the $40 shipping it will equal to the blowout price and with a day to go, will probably go even higher!  Shows ya what I know......I was thinking if new was $199, used should be about half of that.......can't get over people who enjoy paying retail, so much!   :Confused:   I guess I'm cut from a "different cloth".......I like a bargain.

----------


## MrYikes

Spent the day working on the mandolin.  On the MK tailpiece are posts with a groove that the string loop fits into.  My G string was not in the groove, but sitting at the bottom, which made the string too low exiting from the tailpiece.  The top of the tailpiece is supposed to touch the string, mine didn't.  That caused an off sound.
I think each of us benefits when we share our experiences.

----------

dhergert

----------


## dhergert

Very good catch!  

Thank you for letting us know, it is something to watch for.

If the problem wasn't bridge placement related intonation, I was going to suggest using something like rubber grommets to suppress the overtones, which essentially is what you did by correcting the location of the G strings within the tailpiece.

Very good.  And it's a very easy mistake to make while changing strings.

Thanks again!

----------

MrYikes

----------


## Jim Garber

So, what is the net result of all you folks buying this $199 mandolin? Assuming you can get it set up right, would you say that it is worth twice or three times what you paid or is this the equivalent of a $1000 mandolin. Is it a beach instrument or the ultimate pro-sounding bargain? Inquiring mandolin minds yearn to know...  :Smile:

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Mine is a gift for a young man that wants to learn to play mandolin. It will be fine for that.

----------


## Chanmandolin

Jim, I was shocked after i set mine up and played it for awhile. Easily worth 500-600$ in my book. For sure not a beach instrument but also its not quite on the pro level either. But we will see in a year or 2 once its opened up a little bit. There is some potential, thats for sure.

----------


## dhergert

Easily worth $199.50...

 :Laughing: 

I'm pretty well documented in this thread.  I purchased two more of them after seeing and hearing the first one.  

I've compared mine with my Gibson F-9 for tone, volume and playability and it stands well.  It has longer sustain, is brighter and about the same volume.  Sound is subtly different than the F-9 but not inferior to it.  Like comparing a good Taylor to a good Martin, or a good Deering to a good Mastertone.

One of the others that I purchased went to a pro musician friend who has a few Kettler mandolins and he says it compares well with those. 

The other went to a pro musician friend who says it sounds and plays better than his late 80's F-5 (not sure which model).

I don't think any of us are going to turn around and give our main playing mandolins away, but at least these three $199 MKLFSTB mandolins are awfully good sounding and playing mandolins, at least capable of being our backup mandolins, including on stage.

Value?  Huge and historical, in that they have proven that an inexpensive imported F-style mandolin can sound and play wonderfully.  I'd at least say that the current price of these MKLFSTB mandolins, $299 (at MF) is still an excellent value.  Just remember to be prepared for a detailed setup.

I am on record in this thread of predicting (kiddingly) a cult resale value of $1K within 2 years, if the original $199 MF receipt accompanies the MKLFSTB.  Whether that really happens or not, who knows.  If I remember correctly, the original retail list price a few years ago was around $850 without a case so with a case, with a good setup and in good condition, maybe $1K isn't too wild and crazy.

The real question isn't "how much is it worth?", but rather, it is "how much can it save you?"

----------

FLATROCK HILL, 

Jim Garber, 

MrYikes

----------


## Nick Gellie

Don

It is that good I am selling one of my mandolins.  It has pretty good tone and playability is excellent almost as close as my Pava mandolin. Had the been a bit more traditional in looks it would be a great mandolin.

----------

dhergert

----------


## farmerjones

> So, what is the net result of all you folks buying this $199 mandolin? Assuming you can get it set up right, would you say that it is worth twice or three times what you paid or is this the equivalent of a $1000 mandolin. Is it a beach instrument or the ultimate pro-sounding bargain? Inquiring mandolin minds yearn to know...


It speaks to our times when $400 (double the purchase price) is still arguably an inexpensive instrument. 
I've got a couple Rogues for camping. The MK trounces them handily. I've got an Eastman MD615. While I don't own them, I regularly get to play a Flatiron Festival, and an F5G. Both are well played. Well set up and well seasoned. I can definitely say the MK is not in the F5G class. I think with a little mileage the MK could sound as good as the 615 or the Festival. Yes, that's saying a lot. I would have no reservations performing with it, if I weren't playing fiddle. It would not be the mandolin that sucks but more . . .me.

----------

dhergert, 

MrYikes

----------


## colorado_al

I've played many MK mandolins, and have owned several. Some have been great and some have been quite poor. I think what this speaks to is that MK can make great mandolins at a low price, but they do not consistently do so. Glad to hear that this crop of MK is a good buy. I am not a fan of their tailpiece, however. Nice that it is solid, but design is sub-par. While I think Eastman and Kentucky do a better job of consistently producing good mandolins, taking a $200-$300 chance on a MK mandolin that is getting good reviews seems like a good deal to me.

----------

farmerjones, 

MrYikes

----------


## MrYikes

Thank you for your thoughts.  Could you explain your concerns about the tailpiece?  I am a newbie and do not understand, yet, these kind of things.

----------

colorado_al

----------


## colorado_al

> Thank you for your thoughts.  Could you explain your concerns about the tailpiece?  I am a newbie and do not understand, yet, these kind of things.


No problem. Many prefer a solid cast tailpiece compared to the older style stamped tailpiece. The MK mandolins have come with a solid cast tailpiece for a while, and I think this is a big improvement over the cheap stamped tailpieces that they used to use. Unfortunately, the design leave a bit to be desired. Same goes for the Eastman cast tailpiece, and Weber tailpiece. Strings run under a large cast plate and fishing a string underneath it (especially if you are only changing one broken string) can be a pain. The MK tailpiece is a bit worse than the Eastman and Weber TP because the strings are actually run between two plates of the tailpiece and just not very easy to work with.

I prefer open cast tailpieces like those made by Allen, or Montelone style, or those used on Collings mandolins, for example.

Here's the MK, Eastman & Weber tailpieces:


Here's the MK from the side where you can see the top plate of the TP and the bottom one that the strings go between:


Here are Allen , Montelone & Collings:


Tailpiece is certainly not a deal breaker. All are serviceable and can also be changed out if you wish. More of a nit-pick/feature than a deciding factor

For reference, here is a stamped tailpiece:

----------

dhergert, 

Mark Gunter, 

MrYikes

----------


## dhergert

I would agree that the MK tailpiece isn't the easiest to use.  But, I like three things about it compared to the traditional stamped tailpiece:

1) It can use ball-end strings (useful for those of us who use non-standard tunings).
2) It appears to support more sustain (that is just a subjective observation after working with three of these MK mandolins).
3) It seems to suppress overtones by virtue of the angular cut (again, a subjective observation).

I've mentioned it before here, the MK tailpieces appear inside to be two plates that are welded to a center plate.  So they aren't really "cast" tailpieces.  But they are heavier than the stamped tailpieces.

----------


## MrYikes

I can compare only to a Rogue which has a two piece stamped tailpiece.  Changing strings on that was tough because the loop kept popping off while working on the tuner end.  I like the MK design because the loop stays put (as long as you put the string in the groove on the post) and I agree that the heft of the tailpiece helps with the sustain.
To me, the magic of the MK is the quality of tone in spite of the quality of wood used in the box.

----------


## mandolinstew

After owning over 12 mandolins over the years,have never had any trouble stringing any type of tailpiece.

----------

MikeEdgerton

----------


## Willie Poole

MrYikes...Try this, Place the end of the string through the hole in the tuner post then place the loop over the tailpiece hook and use a piece of masking tape to hold the loop on the hook...

    Willie

----------

MrYikes

----------


## farmerjones

Sure, I've straightened the little fingers out on those stamped Rogue tailpieces. Bending it back creates a stress crack, and there you are, hosed.  The void/hole where the stamped finger has been stamped from, I drill the hole round and use a pop-rivet to create a barrel to catch the string loop. A new/good tail piece after paying shipping was more than the mandolin was worth. One hook for two strings works in a pinch too.

----------

MrYikes

----------


## Chanmandolin

I know this thread has calmed down but I know some were wondering how the 199$ Mk sounded so, Heres a tune I recorded using this 199$ MK Mandolin. I think the mandolin is well worth the price. 


https://soundcloud.com/user-467361538/big-sciota

----------

colorado_al, 

dhergert, 

Ellsdemon, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

fox, 

Mark Gunter, 

MikeEdgerton, 

MrYikes, 

Nick Gellie, 

RoyO

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

Chanmandolin...   WOW!!

----------

Chanmandolin

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> I know this thread has calmed down but I know some were wondering how the 199$ Mk sounded so, Heres a tune I recorded using this 199$ MK Mandolin. I think the mandolin is well worth the price. 
> 
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/user-467361538/big-sciota


Nice, really nice.

----------

Chanmandolin

----------


## Jim Garber

Sounds great!

----------

Chanmandolin

----------


## Jim Garber

You folks who bought these at $199 certainly lucked out. If you click on the *link in the first post* you can see that there are no more open box bargains for this model. The current price is $422.64.

----------

Chanmandolin

----------


## MikeEdgerton

I'm feeling really good about this already  :Cool:

----------


## colorado_al

> I know this thread has calmed down but I know some were wondering how the 199$ Mk sounded so, Heres a tune I recorded using this 199$ MK Mandolin. I think the mandolin is well worth the price. 
> 
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/user-467361538/big-sciota


Sounds awesome to me! Great recording! Thanks for sharing.

----------

Chanmandolin

----------


## Nick Gellie

> I know this thread has calmed down but I know some were wondering how the 199$ Mk sounded so, Heres a tune I recorded using this 199$ MK Mandolin. I think the mandolin is well worth the price. 
> 
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/user-467361538/big-sciota


Nice clean clear picking.  Nice one! I wish I could play as well as that.

----------

Chanmandolin

----------


## dhergert

Excellent!!!  Great playing, really like "Big Sciota"!   And that is a great sounding mandolin...  Thank you for posting!

Question: was the next cut ("Temperance Reel") also done with the MK?   I am thinking I hear some of the same woody tone there...

Thanks again for posting!





> I know this thread has calmed down but I know some were wondering how the 199$ Mk sounded so, Heres a tune I recorded using this 199$ MK Mandolin. I think the mandolin is well worth the price. 
> 
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/user-467361538/big-sciota

----------

Chanmandolin

----------


## JKA

> I know this thread has calmed down but I know some were wondering how the 199$ Mk sounded so, Heres a tune I recorded using this 199$ MK Mandolin. I think the mandolin is well worth the price. 
> 
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/user-467361538/big-sciota


Fabulous. I don't see how this piece could sound any better regardless of what mandolin it was played on. To be honest if you had told me this had been recorded by Mr. T or G using their Loars/Dudes I wouldn't have questioned it. 

This really is proof of the adage 'tone is in the fingers' (providing you have an instrument you can draw it out of in the first place, but price is irrelevant)

It's probably time to admit that the only reason we spend $$$$$$ on the dream machine is for that warm fuzzy feeling it gives us.

----------

Chanmandolin, 

dhergert

----------


## Chanmandolin

> Excellent!!!  Great playing, really like "Big Sciota"!   And that is a great sounding mandolin...  Thank you for posting!
> 
> Question: was the next cut ("Temperance Reel") also done with the MK?   I am thinking I hear some of the same woody tone there...
> 
> Thanks again for posting!


Thanks for the kind words. The track " Temperance Reel" was recorded a few months ago using my 04' Parsons A model. I belive the Parsons has a little deeper of a tone than the MK but it's not a huge difference. I will say the price of those 2 mandolins are quite different.

- - - Updated - - -




> Fabulous. I don't see how this piece could sound any better regardless of what mandolin it was played on. To be honest if you had told me this had been recorded by Mr. T or G using their Loars/Dudes I wouldn't have questioned it. 
> 
> This really is proof of the adage 'tone is in the fingers' (providing you have an instrument you can draw it out of in the first place, but price is irrelevant)
> 
> It's probably time to admit that the only reason we spend $$$$$$ on the dream machine is for that warm fuzzy feeling it gives us.


Thanks for the kind words JKA.

----------

dhergert, 

JKA, 

MrYikes

----------


## fox

That is a really great tune played really well, I had a quick listen on my headphones & immediately bluetoothed it across to my Bose so the family good share my delight. I think I need to practice a lot more........

----------

Chanmandolin, 

Ellsdemon

----------


## dhergert

So, the current price-point for these MKLFSTB mandolins on MF is $422.64.  At that price, in my mind there are three things happening...

1) Other, more well known and respected name brands, especially of A-style mandolins, are now in competition with the MKLFSTB.

2) Other respected vendors, often who include a detailed setup, are now well within range of this model from MF.

3) MF is selling off its "Open Box" MKLFSTB mandolins which presumably are the last of these models that will be available from them.

So now there's a question I cannot answer because of my lack of experience with other mandolins that are normally available in the ~$500 price range:

Once setup properly, how do the MKLFSTB mandolins compare with other F-style mandolins within this range?

Assume that like the MKLFSTB mandolins, we are comparing solid spruce top, solid maple back and side, solid maple neck mandolins, most likely from the Pacific Rim, and that the compared mandolins all will require a detailed setup in order to be seriously playable instruments. 

I am guessing that at this price range there are other F-style mandolins that once properly setup will also sound as good as the MKLFSTB mandolins do...  

Is that true?  At this price point, is the MKLFSTB still a good recommendation?

Thanks for your thoughts...

----------


## Ellsdemon

I hope I can make my sound like that one day, nice work Chanmandolin!

----------

Chanmandolin

----------


## Verne Andru

MF was/is having a "restock" promotion across many products and brands, not just the MK.

In the retail world, restock doesn't necessarily mean a return, b-stock or other defect. In this case I believe they are using that term loosely to describe MF bringing new inventory into stock, or "restock". Terms with these and all other promotions of it's type, give vendors a chance to dump inventory that is slow moving, end-of-line or just as a promotion for their brand or new product.

I'll probably get flamed for this, but I believe the biggest contribution Lloyd Loar gave to the mandolin world was that he was someone on the team who cared and had a veto over the quality of the product. The construction methods, materials and etc. can be easily replicated by today's makers but results tend to be mixed because Quality Assurance, something LL did with aplomb, has generally been missing from the equation. It would appear [haven't seen mine yet] MK got it "right" with this one and some of us have been fortunate to have a sample for our own.

Since this MK model is now showing as no longer available from MK, my guess is they were clearing out old inventory. It's a bit of a shame as this thread is a testament to them actually doing it very right, but didn't bother to tell anyone about it until they decided to kill the model. Might have been a very good seller had they put some marketing behind it.

I'm stoked to compare the MK with my Paris Swing. The PS is also an all solid build with a great, woody tone. I didn't pay much more for it than the $199 the MK's were going for, but it was the last factory blem from the fellow who was selling them off on eBay - it originally retailed for over a thousand. There will be differences between the tone - one is an f-hole, the other a D - but I'm expecting the volume and woodiness should be similar going by this thread.

----------

Chanmandolin

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> ...Since this MK model is now showing as no longer available from MK, my guess is they were clearing out old inventory...


Verne, You may be right about the strategy to clear out old inventory. I have no idea. It does make more sense than believing this whole bunch-full of mandolins were restocked due to some blemish etc. 
I believe that the same model mandolin is still available however, just at a higher price ($422.64). http://www.musiciansfriend.com/folk-...tival-mandolin

If this really is a discontinued model that is destined to become a collector's item (as some have jokingly suggested), I'm hosed. Mine's already undergone my crude luthery and had the matte finish completely rubbed out, the tailpiece reshaped and 'distressed', the Florida scoopage redesigned as well as having the neck profile converted to a thinner speed-neck 'V' shape. 

Then again, maybe Steve G.'s great-grandkid can restore it to its original glory 90 years from now.  :Wink: 

I think/hope you will be happy with yours when it arrives.

----------

Chanmandolin

----------


## Verne Andru

FH - I believe yours will be particularly coveted as a "relic."

I've been nosing around for a beater for traveling, etc. for a while now. It had to be less expensive than what I paid for my PS [which wasn't much] and have at least a solid top. The low-end Washburn and Gretsch can be had between 100 and 150 used, so I've been scoping those. At $199 this MK is more expensive [but still cheaper than my PS so it passed the test] but an all solid f-style build made it a bit of a no-brainer.

Part of the appeal to me, and perhaps relates to the comments on the tone, is it doesn't have a ton of bling inhibiting the wood. I find things like thick varnishes and bound f-holes tend to work against tone in favor of ornament. Plus it adds to the cost. I've played high-end [blingy] Eastman's beside their lower-end [pretty plain] models and was quite surprised how well/better the less adorned model sounded.

----------


## MrYikes

Took off the strings, oiled the fingerboard, finessed the bridge height and installed my new elegant $.99 strap (which I'll replace soon), lubed the gears (just in case), replaced the strings and sat down to play, only to get hooked reading on Mandolin Cafe.  There's always tomorrow.

----------

dhergert

----------


## dhergert

Yup, I played mine last evening for about an hour.  Good therapy.  Was ready to sleep after.

Still very happy with how this mandolin sounds and plays.  Heard early this week from my two friends; they are extremely happy with theirs.

Thanks again MikeEdgerton!

----------


## MrYikes

I broke two e strings this morning (they were used), which is kinda normal for me, but these were unraveling on the end post.  I've not seen this before.  Have you?  total of 6 broken e strings so far,,,,and counting.  I put some other e strings in the pic so you could see the difference in the loop.

----------


## Verne Andru

I use some solder on the windings when that happens. Some tech's for touring musicians clean new strings with an alcohol compound and solder the loop/ball windings every time they change strings just as a matter of course.

----------

gtani7

----------


## dhergert

Yes, I've seen this, and recently, but exclusively with the MK tailpieces.  I think the narrow metal posts encourage the lighter, non-wound string loops to slip and tighten, and eventually the windings will slip and unravel.  This may possibly also be a flaw with the strings caused during manufacture.  Like you, I've seen this happen with both E strings.

I did two things to get past this with the original tailpiece:

1) To save the strings, I cut off the loop and winding area on the unraveled strings and re-wound them as tightly as possible by hand with needle nose pliers (be careful of the sharp ends of the strings with your fingertips).

2) In re-installing these strings I put the loop on the same posts as where the wound D string loops go -- and under those D string loops -- on the tailpiece, and then "hooked" the E strings around the posts that the E string loops should normally sit on.  The extra string-bend and working around all the other posts gives the E strings enough friction to not slip on the post and unravel.

I only saw this happen on one of the three MK mandolins that I've handled, the one that I re-stringed during setup for a friend.  I made sure to let him know about it, and how to get the tailpiece to work if it happens again.

The other MK that I gave to a friend, he re-stringed, and I did not hear of any issues about it from him.  He either didn't have the problem, or he figured out a way to make it work after it happened, because he's using the MK all the time.

My personal $199 MK did not have this problem, but it probably wouldn't because I use taropatch-C (or slack-key, GG CC ee gg) tuning which is much lower tension than standard GG DD aa ee tuning.  Plus, to keep the non-wound strings from sounding too ringy, I use heavier gauge strings for treble courses 2 (.017) and 1 (.015).

This doesn't happen with my Gibson's stamped tailpiece possibly also because of my non-standard tuning and strings, but if it did, these tailpieces are built to provide extra hooks for that extra string-bend for the treble strings, similar to what I jury-rigged with the MK tailpiece.  That's where I got the idea.

Good luck with this!

----------

gtani7

----------


## Chanmandolin

> I broke two e strings this morning (they were used), which is kinda normal for me, but these were unraveling on the end post.  I've not seen this before.  Have you?  total of 6 broken e strings so far,,,,and counting.  I put some other e strings in the pic so you could see the difference in the loop.


Yikes! I've never seen that happen as often as your saying it's occuring. What model strings are you using? I'll always recommend trying elixirs

----------


## MrYikes

I'm using regular j74s, but don't blame the strings.  Its me.  I'm new and trying to learn about mandolin, so I'm very hard on the strings by taking them off and on, tightening and then loosening many times.  
I'm wondering if a violin loop protector could help this issue.  A loop protector is a small plastic u shape with a groove on the outside.  An e string fine tuner (some brands) has one finger to hold the loop and of course puts a lot of pressure on the steel.  The protector fits in the string loop and helps spread the pressure.  They are irksome to put in and use so I may try it, but only after my learning process is over.
Don, your tuning is intriguing.  Is this helpful for the style of music you play?  or just because you like the sound?

----------


## dhergert

> ...Don, your tuning is intriguing.  Is this helpful for the style of music you play?  or just because you like the sound?


All of the above, but it started because I wanted to be able to play chord-melody style on the mandolin just like I do on the banjo.  To be fair, the banjo is really my main instrument...  

Taropatch-C (or slack-key, GG CC ee gg) tuning works out just about right on the mandolin scale-length for the same chord and fingering intervals that I use with fingerpicking on the 5-string banjo as well as with flatpicking on the plectrum banjo.  So my chord patterns up and down the neck are the same, albeit much tighter due to the mandolin frets being much closer together.

But being a mandolin tuning deviate isn't for everyone -- a player is pretty isolated by non-standard tunings as far as sharing techniques, licks, runs and other normal mandolin goodies are concerned.  But for someone with a pre-existing high level of expertise with a non-standard tuning, and especially if that person can make good progress learning on their own, it makes good sense.

I used to be pretty shy about talking about using what is really a high voiced banjo tuning on the mandolin, but since I'm successfully using it on stage now, I've come out of the closet.  A few people have somewhat jokingly accused me of perverting the mandolin, but since historically banjos have been tuned like mandolins, fiddles, guitars and ukuleles for so long, I don't feel guilty tuning my mandolins like banjos.

One other observation and then I'll go back into the mandolin tuning deviate closet...  Regular mandolin tuning creates remarkably high tension on the instrument and on the strings.  After grimacing and grunting for about 30 minutes trying to tune my friends' MK mandolins to standard tuning -- and having to come up with a solution for the MK/E-string loop slipping issue -- I can tell you I really really really prefer the lower tension of taropatch-C (or slack-key) tuning.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I'm using regular j74s, but don't blame the strings.  Its me.  I'm new and trying to learn about mandolin, so I'm very hard on the strings by taking them off and on, tightening and then loosening many times.


So...MrYikes: Why do you do that? Modern strings are pretty resilient but I doubt they are meant for mulitple stressing like you are doing.

----------


## MrYikes

Hi Jim,  I had to work on the bridge feet which meant loosening the strings and then tightening,,many, many times, and then I tried some GHS lighter gauge strings, didn't like the results, and put back on some of the original strings.  But along the way strings broke.  I'm new to this plastic string winder thing (wish I knew its name) so when tightening an E string even though I was careful to count the turns and slow down when getting close, the metal would just fatigue and snap.  It is no fault of the equipment, it is just my overuse that is at fault,,but it must be done.  I want the equipment correct before I really start to internalize playing posture, hand position, etc.
BTW, I know this is a family friendly forum so are we really allowed to talk with a "closet banjer player".  Paw always told me "only thing worse than them is a drummer",,so I had to be a drummer

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## Jim Garber

Ah that makes sense. Assuming your bridge is now correctly set up, you should not have much of that trouble. I actually don't use those string winders much but, in any case, you can tell when the string pitch is getting close and then use an electronic to tune it to pitch. For around $6 you should splurge for a new set of J-74s. It will save you some grief and they can last for a few months, at least. 

Hey, you saved a bunch on this MK mandolin. I think you can afford new strings.  :Smile:

----------

MrYikes

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## Verne Andru

I tend to use factory strings for setup because of all the tightening/loosening then string it with my preferred set when the messy stuff is done.

I've found there's always a settling-in time where an errand fret will buzz, etc. will show, so even the second set tends to get compromised. By the time I'm on my 3rd set of strings things are good-to-go, but even then I find going through the various seasons of the year may cause further tweaking.

In fairness, getting a new fretted instrument [guitar, mando, etc.] all dialed in and playing it's best usually takes me a couple years and a few sets of strings. But once that's done, they rock!

----------

MrYikes

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## dhergert

> ... BTW, I know this is a family friendly forum so are we really allowed to talk with a "closet banjer player".  Paw always told me "only thing worse than them is a drummer",,so I had to be a drummer


Hmmm, in the closet for the mandolin players because I play banjo.  In the closet for banjo players because I play mandolin...  I may as well always stay in.  I just need a lamp so I can see which instrument I'm playing.  :Wink:

----------

MrYikes

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## MrYikes

yeppers, I once tried on a viola for size, then I got concerned about what the violin players would think of me.  Now that I'm all growed up, I realize they never thought about me anyway.
And Jim I've got 4 sets of strings just waiting for me to stop fiddlin around.  In fact I went to juststrings and tried to order several strings, but then I saw their shipping charges and quietly slipped away.
Verne, you're right.  That's my thinking also.  I need to read about dressing frets.  I've got a new set of small files and my fingers are itching.

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## Mark Gunter

NFI !!!
Mr. Yikes, last time I went shopping for strings for a couple guitars and mandolins I compared prices in several site's shopping carts, and in the end, due to my purchasing multiple sets, the best price to be had was from Cafe sponsor Elderly Instruments. That was EXP16 for guitars and EXP74CM for mandolins. Just an FYI. That was a few weeks ago, not sure if that experience still holds true.

----------

MrYikes

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## Verne Andru

Best investment I made was a fret crowning file. The rest of the tools - needle files, ####### file and sandpaper - can be had just about anywhere on the cheap, but a nice crowning file makes setup jobs so much faster, cleaner and easier that they're worth paying for. Work especially well for sharp fret-ends.


http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools..._and_crowning/

Mine is double-sided - medium and large. You can also get them small and medium. Small is best for mandolin, medium for guitar and large for bass. At the time I got mine I wasn't into mandolin but I do play bass. I find I can do my mando's fine with the medium so it worked out.

A nice set of nut slot files are on my list, but needle files work in a pinch.

----------

gtani7, 

MrYikes

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## dhergert

Interesting, now from MF at $244.97 and in a "Mint" and "Open Box" condition...  

"This gear was returned in mint condition. If you're looking for a virtually new instrument in possibly less-than-perfect packaging, this is a great value."

And like before, it seems there are more than one -- I just put one in my cart and proceeded a bit into the sale, and there were still more available.

These MKLFSTB mandolins can sound excellent, but they will probably need a detailed setup.

NFI...




> There's only one, it will be gone quickly, I have no idea what condition it's in as it is a restock but for $199.00 you can have a Michael Kelly F style mandolin.
> 
> http://www.musiciansfriend.com/folk-...81778002001000

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## Petrus

> The rest of the tools - needle files, ####### file and sandpaper ...


One hesitates to inquire.  :Confused: 

Grade of fineness?

----------


## Jacob

"A file of the commercial grade of coarseness between coarse and second-cut." Think "an illegitimate child".

----------

MikeEdgerton

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Correct.

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## Br1ck

Well, eleven pages of this thread finally got to me, and since I have an f style strap begging to be used, what the heck. Having a travel mandolin can't be all bad. Now I can use the e book setup guide.

----------


## Mike Stewart

> Now I can use the e book setup guide.


My experience and that of others says you'll need it. 😀

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## dhergert

Yup.  I just ordered another for another friend.  $244.97 is still an excellent price for these.  These "Open Box" "Mint" mandos are also now given the designation of "Level 1".  Not sure what that means, but their description of Mint reads:
"
This gear was returned in mint condition. If you're looking for a virtually new instrument in possibly less-than-perfect packaging, this is a great value.
Includes full manufacturer's warranty
Includes Free 2-Year Warranty on guitars and basses
Includes 45-Day No Hassle Returns
"

Oh and after I completed this purchase, I did check again, there are evidently still more of these available. 

That makes four of these MKLFSTB models that have passed through my hands.  I'll probably setup this one also.

Hmmm, I should have checked my email, I got a MF "back stage pass" email for pre-black-Friday 15% off for anything over $200.  Could have saved a bit more.  I guess I'll just have to buy something else.  Oh well.

 :Wink:

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## MrYikes

I'm waiting for someone to start a thread about the $179 F-style Rogue with solid spruce top. With 15% off that's $152.  I can't help but wonder if something is going on between MF and MK.

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## dhergert

Hmmm, I can't clearly tell from the pictures, is there carving on the scroll of the Rogue RM100F?

(This is not intended to be a commentary on the quality of this instrument, I'm just curious.)

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## Verne Andru

> I can't help but wonder if something is going on between MF and MK.


Big resellers are constantly coming up with promo's they make available to all suppliers to keep inventories turning. Some companies don't like to discount their wares while others take advantage of the promo's to move stock, etc.

I don't suspect anything other than MK is sitting on some inventory they want to move and MF has a promo that accommodates that. Unlike the roaring-2000's, musical instrument sales have slowed down considerably for everyone and sales like this help to keep the machine bumping along.

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## Br1ck

Yes, I think companies are motivated to dump discontinued products. May be tax advantages too. Looking forward to having a brighter mandolin as an alternative to my Silverangel, but mostly as a test bed to try fret leveling, etc.

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## Petrus

> "A file of the commercial grade of coarseness between coarse and second-cut." Think "an illegitimate child".


Aha.  Never heard that one before.  I saw the seven hash marks and thought it was some sort of _really_ fine file, sort of how they use zeroes for some tools, but then thought, why not just call it a "7#"?   :Smile:

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## Petrus

> I'm waiting for someone to start a thread about the $179 F-style Rogue with solid spruce top. With 15% off that's $152.  I can't help but wonder if something is going on between MF and MK.


At this price point I'd still prefer a simple A style.  I still favor the Rover 50 model.  It's the same parent company (Saga) that owns the Kentucky brand, and they're about as good as the well-regarded KM-150, and maybe a tad cheaper.  They also have the paddle head as opposed to the snake head of the Kentuckys, if you favor that shape.  Upgrade the tuners and bridge and you'll have a very decent mandolin that'll sound as good as some $500 models.

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## pheffernan

> It is that good I am selling one of my mandolins.


Which one is that, Nic?  :Popcorn:

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## dhergert

So MKLFSTB #4 arrived today, this one of the $244.97  "Open Box" "Mint" "Level 1" mandolins ordered as another gift for another friend.

The packaging condition is original box, apparently unopened, but missing the Michael Kelly label and serial number inside the instrument.  The serial number was outside on the original box so we do have that number, but no label in the instrument.

Condition is good, with the normal fairly rough finish work but nice solid wood.  Nothing is missing, everything mechanical is working properly and the build is solid.  The mandolin sounds wonderful out of the box, but it definitely is needing a detailed setup including fret leveling.  I counted around 5 high frets.  The two-way truss rod was way over-loosened, causing significant bow in the neck, but I corrected that early on, before bringing the strings up to pitch.  The bridge is the nicest bridge I've seen on all 4 of these mandolins, all it will need is thumbscrew adjustment and final positioning for intonation.  I'll give the mandolin a few days to settle in at pitch and then will do the setup, starting with the fretwork.

I'm anxious for the setup to be complete so I can try it more seriously.

Did I mention that this mandolin sounds wonderful???   :Mandosmiley:

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## pops1

Just got a used MK, block inlays, tweed hard shell case, amazing price. Needed lots of setup, but the sound is really quite good, much better than the couple hundred paid. I think this is the best kept, well not here, secret in the intro mandolin world. It really does sound good. Has anyone played their oval hole  mandolins?

----------

dhergert

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## MrYikes

Looking forward to hear more, Don.
Happy for you Pops1

----------

dhergert

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## dhergert

This MKLFSTB #4 is for the fiddler that my wife and I play with in the three bands that we play with.  She had been wanting to branch into mandolin because she knows the fingering from fiddle, but she may also want to lend it to her boyfriend to try, so it's a good direction either way.  Personally I feel these are great gifts and have really enjoyed getting them for people.  

Our fiddler came over to visit us last night after I adjusted the truss rod and had done a little pre-setup bridge adjusting, just to hear and feel the instrument.  Like me, she really likes the tone and volume.  Even with the original old strings, it's powerful, bright and has that characteristic long sustain.  Our fiddler also flatpicks guitar and plays a little dobro, so the mandolin is the next frontier for her.

I'm a little concerned about the reason that this mandolin may not have a Michael Kelly sticker in it.  It obviously hasn't been played or setup, the box appeared to have the original unbroken seal tape to me, with a plain white serial number sticker on the outside of the box where I could see and recognize it.  It's not that I ever expect to need to send it back or need warranty service, but I'm curious because MF has advertised these as "Mint" "Level 1" "Open Box" instruments that are still covered by the manufacturer's warranty.  That may make a difference for other buyers, and I'm especially watchful for new players who may happen to see this thread and move forward with purchasing.  I may email Michael Kelly about this just to clarify the situation.

What I can tell from examining the serial number sequences that I've worked with is that this particular mandolin was built in 2012.  Mine was built in 2011.  From refinements in build, I'm guessing that the other two that I've worked with were built later; I'll have to check their serial numbers later sometime to verify that.  

It is obvious from slight detail differences among the four that I've handled that these mandolins are all at least assembled and finished by hand.  The obvious indications are binding width and level of quality especially in the scroll, different ways of handling the scooped florida and differences in the level of finish cleanup.

So that's the news on this MKLFSTB #4, so far.  I'm really tempted to get started with setup today, but we've got gigs on both Friday and Saturday and I really don't want my hands to be sore for playing.  So a little time for this mandolin to settle in will probably help anyway.

Oh, and yes, the link still works (NFI):
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/folk-...81778004001000

----------

MrYikes

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## Br1ck

Mine is due to arrive on Friday. It will be an interesting experience as I haven't ventured into the bottom feeding end of things in a while. I guess from what's being said, it's not really bottom feeding.

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## MrYikes

Don, what are the clues to build dates?  And I would be concerned about the missing label too.  Bob.

----------

dhergert

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## Jim Garber

I think that Don should publish the ultimate Michael Kelly MKLFSTB Legacy Festival Mandolin coffee table book. He is the expert on this mandolin for sure.  :Smile:

----------

dhergert, 

FLATROCK HILL

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## MikeEdgerton

Soon to come: The MKLFSTB Registry!

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## pops1

> Soon to come: The MKLFSTB Registry!


Gheesh, now I feel left out, mine is not a MKLFSTB, it's little higher priced, but I got it used at the same price point. Does that count?   :Whistling:

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## dhergert

Personally I'd say if it saves you ~$2k or more, it counts.   :Mandosmiley:

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## Jim Garber

> Soon to come: The MKLFSTB Registry!


Reminds me of...

----------

MikeEdgerton

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## dhergert

> Don, what are the clues to build dates?  And I would be concerned about the missing label too.  Bob.


Bob, it's a lot of "Assumptions based on Guesswork" at this point...   

I've attached two images:

The three "Restock" MKLFSTB mandolin boxes 
- and - 
The single "Open Box" MKLFSTB mandolin box labels 
(which I've attached to a separate paper so the new owner will have easy access to them, since there is no label inside the mandolin)
 ----- 

Note that each of the "Restock" boxes has a label near the top, which contains the serial number (which matches the serial number on the MK label inside the mandolin).

Below that is a "Restock" label which I'm guessing is from MF, covering the original stock label that I'm guessing came from MK.

Below that is a purchase order number.

The labels for the "Open Box" MKLFSTB don't include the MF "Restock" label, but they do include another smaller label which includes a date (10/15/201) at the bottom which only contains a partial year (201).

So the serial numbers that I've handled up to this time are:
Restock: J04110044 (mine, the first one I received)
Restock: N04110031
Restock: N04110027
Open Box: F04120044

Given some experience with decoding serial numbers from other companies, here are my *guesses*...

The first letter probably indicates a factory location
The 04 which exists on all four serial numbers probably indicates a model (MKLFSTB)
The next two digits probably indicate the 20## year (the three restocks 2011, the open box 2012)

I'm a little fuzzier about the next four digits, but they might indicate an "off the bench" number and/or a day of the year counter of some sort.

Sooo, going a little further with guesswork, the Restock: N04110031 and the Restock: N04110027 were both a little less crude in build and a little better finished than my restock (J04110044) and the open box (F04120044).  If the "N" at the beginning of both of their serial numbers does represent factory location, that's an interesting "tell" that we may want to watch for with other MKLFSTB mandolins.

Again, these are all "Assumptions based on Guesswork".  Not extremely reliable.  But interesting.

I still plan to talk with the MK folks about the missing label on the Open Box mandolin, probably with a live phone call on Monday.  At that time, if they're willing, I'd like to find out for sure about how to decode the serial numbers.  I'll definitely share anything I learn here.

I'm not awfully concerned about the missing label on the "Open Box" MFLFSTB because the instrument is sound and I don't expect it will need warranty service.  And, because it sounds so good, it is definitely a keeper.  But if it is consistent with the MF "Open Box" instrument sales, the missing label probably does have special meaning related to warranty and knowing that in advance would be nice for other buyers.

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## dhergert

Oh, and Jim and Mike, I guess the above post begins both the "Coffee table book" and the "Registry".   :Laughing:

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## MrYikes

For the registry: F04120004

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## Br1ck

My MK arrived yesterday. First impression is that the center of the burst is red. Very red.Build quality not bad, but the binding around the Florida is very rough. The inner e string was broken. When I put another on, it snapped at the tuner post. The edge of the hole was not smooth.nFixed with a file.

When I tuned it up, roughly set the intonation, and started to play I was less than impressed. Of course a lot of this was the very bad action. Started with the bridge which had daylight showing through at least 50% of contact area. Fixing that improved the tone a bunch. so did playing it a couple of hours.

Fret dressing and new strings should help more, but I played it an hour and it's growing on me. Time will tell.

----------

dhergert

----------


## dhergert

Glad it's arrived...  As always I'm a little fearful about the first impressions, especially if there are major setup hurdles.  I hope setup goes well for you and that this mandolin turns out very well.

The fret leveling that I need to do on the most recent MKLFSTB that I received on Tuesday is probably going to be the most major leveling that I've had to do for the four that I've dealt with.  A lot of high frets especially for the wound strings.  As always I'll need to check for and correct for any loose frets during this process, although I haven't run into any with these mandolins up to this point.  I'll probably visit the truss rod again in the process, just to make sure all is right.

On the second MKLFSTB that I received I remember that the original strings were trimmed too short at the tuning post, and after doing the fretwork I couldn't re-use either of the E strings, they would slip out of the posts every time I tried to bring them up to pitch.  But I haven't had any trouble with roughness causing the strings to break...  Something to watch for.  These are Grover branded tuners (although probably produced in the Pacific Rim) so I'm a little surprised that something like that would get past QA.

Yup, the "red" finish is interesting.  In the right light it looks less red -- maybe with the right sunglasses.   :Grin: 

Nice flame in the back though...

----------


## Folkmusician.com

Re: Labels.  If you look at the label itself, you will see that these are thermal printed stickers. They do not stick well and regularly come off. I have received quite a few MK mandolins where the label has either fallen off and is loose inside the mandolin, or not there at all. 

This isn't MK specific, but it isn't rare to receive multiple instruments with the same serial numbers, wrong model numbers, dates that are years ago or in the future (for instruments that are fresh from the factory and supposedly dated).

I wouldn't worry much about a missing label.  It is unlikely that it means anything other than the label fell off.   :Smile:

----------

dhergert

----------


## Br1ck

I did my first fret leveling, first drew on the frets with a sharpie. The frets higher than the twelfth needed a lot taken off. I used a six inch plane with 400 grit stuck to the bottom with double sided tape, being careful to rock it slightly to compensate for the imperceptible radius. Anyway, the leveling made the mandolin play cleaner. I might lower action at the nut, but it is close. I restrung with EJ 74s. One thing I found interesting, with the new strings, the bridge had to be moved back quite a bit to intonate.

I'm going to play it for a while and reevaluate. It is certainly very different from My Silverangel or the Eastman 505 I had.

One thing this has taught me is woe to the poor beginners that get stuck playing off the shelf instruments due to ignorance. I can only hope not too many give up in frustration. The importance of a good setup cannot be over sold.

----------

dhergert

----------


## dhergert

> Re: Labels.  ...  I wouldn't worry much about a missing label.  It is unlikely that it means anything other than the label fell off.


Thank you Robert, I always appreciate your input.  And after having setup a few of these MK's, I've grown to deeply appreciate and respect your commitment to a good setup before an instrument leaves your door.  It makes for an excellent recommendation to people who cannot or don't care to do their own setup.




> I did my first fret leveling, ...
> One thing this has taught me is woe to the poor beginners that get stuck playing off the shelf instruments due to ignorance. I can only hope not too many give up in frustration. The importance of a good setup cannot be over sold.


Exactly...  Again, as mentioned above to Robert.

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## pops1

The one I bought was used and needed a lot of setup. Truss rod was so loose the neck had a lot of bow, nut high, action high, bridge fit terrible and leaning forward. If someone was trying to learn on this I feel sorry for them. I sounds good and plays very nice now, way beyond it's price point, even if I would have bought it new.

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## dhergert

This actually makes a really good point:  How much have we actually invested into each of these "$199.00 solid F style mandolin(s)"

And I'm not saying this to imply that I feel I've personally wasted money or time as far as the MKLFSTB mandolins that I've handled because they have all been worth it for me 

But...  In my case, here's what I've invested both in money and in time for my MKLFSTB mandolin:

1) MKLFSTB Restock, $199 + Next Day S&H, $21.12 + Tax, $17.61 Sub: $237.73
2) New strings, $11.59 + S&H, $6.95 Sub: $18.54
3) Hard Case, ~$100 (I happened to have a nearly new TKL/Gibson case which used to hold my F9)
4) Setup: At least 4 hours (first one, mine, took about 6 hours), minimum value $100
5) Pickguard: $85 + S&H ~$5 + ~$50 installation 2-hour value Sub: $140
6) Armrest: $35 + S&H ~$5 Sub: $40
7) Toneguard: $75 + S&H ~$5 Sub: $80

Total: $716.27

Now to be fair, I'd probably put the same $478.54 in money, parts and time into any mandolin that I purchased for me.  So the $199 price for the mandolin itself is still a pretty good savings to start out with...

But in particular related to setup, I don't do setup for a living for a reason -- it can be hard, detailed, exacting physical hand-work -- and my hands, which are getting old and which are used to typing for a living and making music for fun, are usually sore for at least a few days afterward.  So a well-done setup along with a guarantee of quality is really worth more than $100 for me.  Maybe it's a little bit easier if a person does it all the time and has a room fitted with all the proper tools ready to do this work, but I'd guess it's still hard hand-work even with those conveniences.

----------


## Folkmusician.com

There is surely a speed and smoothness to the workflow that comes with doing thousands of setups.  The opportunity to speed things up, is in the fret and bridge work. This can easily be cut in half and doing it 400% faster while being even more accurate is realistic.  The problem with most things like this, is that the longer you do it, the more detailed you get, which adds to the time.    If you are brave, a Foredom tool will make quick work of things like nut shaping. Obviously this is also dangerous!   :Smile: 

Dedicated tools help. A lot of the stuff you end up making yourself, because there are not a lot of good commercial options out there.  All my levelers are diamond that I made myself.  I custom grind files for specific tasks.  It is kind of painful to take a brand new file to a grinding wheel, but a custom ground file can save time.

Remember to mask up....  You are breathing in metal when doing fret work.  That can't be good!  Ebony dust is not exactly healthy either.

Also, when doing the fret work, push on the frets and see if there is movement.  If so, you need to glue them down.  One of the keys to getting a good level on the frets (fast), is to glue them down first. If not, you are fighting with frets that are moving as you are trying to level them. This is VERY common.   :Smile:

----------

dhergert, 

MrYikes, 

red7flag

----------


## Verne Andru

> If someone was trying to learn on this I feel sorry for them.


After the Beatles Ed Sullivan show my folks bought me my first guitar. Dad was manager of an SS Kresge's store, so that's probably where they bought it. It was setup like a cheese-grater and no family or friends knew how to play so, sorry to say, my first guitar died in an El Kabong episode with an annoying sibling.

It was quite a few years before I took another run at guitar but by then I was a teen and, even though I had no clue what I was doing, I had a full toolbox and enough motivation to start figuring it out for myself. Recently the internet has been a real boon for learning these types of skills.

Still amazes me luthiers can only charge shy of $100 for a good setup when it takes me the better part of a day - and I've done probably close to a hundred by this point.

----------

dhergert

----------


## Jeff Mando

> But...  In my case, here's what I've invested both in money and in time for my MKLFSTB mandolin:
> 
> 1) MKLFSTB Restock, $199 + Next Day S&H, $21.12 + Tax, $17.61 Sub: $237.73
> 2) New strings, $11.59 + S&H, $6.95 Sub: $18.54
> 3) Hard Case, ~$100 (I happened to have a nearly new TKL/Gibson case which used to hold my F9)
> 4) Setup: At least 4 hours (first one, mine, took about 6 hours), minimum value $100
> 5) Pickguard: $85 + S&H ~$5 + ~$50 installation 2-hour value Sub: $140
> 6) Armrest: $35 + S&H ~$5 Sub: $40
> 7) Toneguard: $75 + S&H ~$5 Sub: $80
> ...


Don, from an outsiders point of view, it looks like you have a $200 instrument with $500 worth of accessories......

You are obviously enjoying the instrument, so it is a good value for you.  I would ask the question for comparison, is the mandolin with the upgrades "better" than an off the shelf $716 mandolin?  I guess it would depend on which one.  Also, you could argue that you would replace the strings anyway and I personally do not "charge" myself $25 an hour labor when setting up an instrument, I merely do it for fun, a hobby, if you will....

Or maybe, if you purchased the $716 mandolin, you would still require the additional upgrades...?

Fun to think about and probably not issue as long as you are not planning to resell and get your money back...

Disclaimer:  I live in the South and see a lot of $800 cars with $5000 worth of rims on them.  I know it is a cultural thing and I do find it amusing, but.....

----------

dhergert

----------


## Br1ck

It does seem that everything I've done has improved the tone of my MK.  I could also be convinced it's my imagination or just putting more hours on it. As I get the action adjusted better, I realize that the thought of not doing nut work was wishful thinking, so that is on the agenda for today.

One thing the MK has given me is a very different tone than my other mandolin.

I do also believe that if you don't have a natural desire and at least most of the tools, a $100 setup is a valid approach.

Add on:  Filed the nut slots this morning with very good results. i'll play it for a few days then probably file a bit more. The nut work again improved the tone. Could it be that the strings weren't making decent contact with the nut?

I believe I'm feeling a vibration in the back that wasn't there before. Oh no, could this thing be worth a tonegard? I can see having as much invested in accessories as the mandolin. First up is at least a gig bag.

----------

dhergert

----------


## dhergert

*Robert*, thank you for a couple of things:

1) Per your earlier comments, I checked inside the mandolin for the missing label.  And there it was!  So, I've glued it in place.  No worries about warranty now, which I'm glad about (even though the warranty will probably never be used).

2) Also regarding loose frets and leveling, yes, I've been checking that, actually since reading a very nice list that you produced a few weeks ago about all the tasks you do during setup.  And yes, it's pretty futile to try to level loose frets!  (And thanks for the breathing mask recommendation too!)   :Grin: 

*Jeff*, yes, you're right, I've got a lot of extras adding value (and cost) to my MKLFSTB.  In reality if this had been a Gibson, I would have added all these goodies to it -- in fact I did.  And that's why I wanted them on the MK, so the instruments would feel (and maybe sound) the same when playing.  And regarding charging myself for setup and assembly, I'm just figuring if I didn't do these things, I would have paid someone those amounts at least for the same work.

*Br1ck*, I do think by working on an instrument we improve not just the instrument, but also our attachment to it, and in doing so, our ability to pull tone from the instrument, so yes, I do believe that yours is sounding better because of your work and your handling of it.  Maybe a zen / perception sort of thing, but also at least partially reality.  I've experienced that with my F9 and my MK, as well as with the two other MKs that I've setup, and I've experienced it with every banjo and Dobro that I have (and also have setup).  

In my case, I'm glad to do setup for my own instruments and if desired for the instruments that I gift to people, but I don't think my hands would last very long trying to do it for a living at this time in my life (again, that is; I tried that back in the late '70s before I started my career in computers, and I decided I love music and instruments too much to try to make a living with them).

Btw, I do believe that tone guards are worth the investment purely from a tone and volume standpoint (not to mention in addition to saving the back of the instrument).  But you can test this yourself by just not letting the back of the instrument touch your body as you play it for a while.  (I do like to further allow the mandolin to vibrate freely with an armrest and a pickguard, but that's a personal taste thing and it does change your playing geometry.)

----------

MrYikes

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## dhergert

Just finished setting up MKLFSTB #4, this one a gift for another friend.  Needed two leveling passes, with checks between them.  

Broke four E strings in the process; broke the two original strings in de-tuning due to a burr in the tuner posts which I filed down, and then broke two new strings due to fatigue at the post from tuning and un-tuning three or four times between leveling passes.

The nut lateral string centering was off favoring the high strings, so as I was softening the sharp edges I also took down some of the low string side of the nut so I could slide it a bit toward that low string side.  Lowered the action at the nut; may do so again if the new owner requests it.

The big surprise on this MKLFSTB, other than finding the label and serial number floating around the inside of the instrument, is that the bridge is nearly perfect.  Seating is wonderful and the string spacing and height is excellent, so no re-doing of any of these details was necessary.  Just needed a little positioning for intonation and thumb wheel adjustment for action.

I probably worked on setup with this mandolin for about 7 hours, so I'm really glad I had today off work...  Since this mandolin is a gift for our fiddler and she is not able to do her own setup, I wanted it near perfect as far as playability is concerned.

This is a fine sounding mandolin.  I'm very pleased with how it turned out!

----------

MrYikes

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## Br1ck

As I dialed in the action at the nut, and the first position plays really well, it threw things off above the twelfth fret, so I'm going to be bringing that area down some more. It really seems to be a tweak this, tweak that process. I'm learning a lot for sure.

Have you found much difference between the four you've bought?

----------


## dhergert

> As I dialed in the action at the nut, and the first position plays really well, it threw things off above the twelfth fret, so I'm going to be bringing that area down some more. It really seems to be a tweak this, tweak that process. I'm learning a lot for sure.
> 
> Have you found much difference between the four you've bought?


Yes, but not major playability related differences...  

The biggest visual differences I've seen are in the approach to the scooped florida.  The first MKLFSTB that came (the one that is now mine) has a nicely "scooped" florida with a relatively thin lateral profile.  The next two were both stepped instead of "scooped" but still with the same relatively thin lateral profile.  This last one that I've received has a very small step, with a lateral profile that is only slightly thinner than the rest of the fingerboard. 

Regarding binding work, I've seen narrower binding on some than on others.  I've seen cleaner binding around the florida and around the scroll and in the points on some than on others.  

The matte "Tobacco Burst" polyester finish on some is more cleanly done than on others, although they all have had finish flaws in one area or another.  I've seen a little thinness in the sunburst around the f-holes with some.  In normal light, the sunburst seems pretty red to me too, with all of them, but I've gotten to where I like the finish as is.

The first one (mine) and the last one both had rather crudely carved ABS nuts.  They were nearly just square blocks with slots basically, and the slots weren't nicely centered on the width of the fingerboard; I like rounded edges so people don't catch their hands on the sharp points, and and I like the slots well centered, so I have done that with each nut, since they had to be off of the mandolin in order to level the frets anyway.  The other two mandolins' nuts came in with nicely rounded edges and well centered, so someone was obviously caring about them.

The most recent mandolin has the best bridge and bridge setup that I've seen.  The seating on the top is excellent (so good that I wonder who did it), and the string slots are spaced perfectly with just the right depth for each string.  This mandolin also had the most seriously high frets of those that I've setup, it took two leveling passes for me to get them to where every note sounds clearly.  And the 2-way truss rod on this mandolin was extremely "loose", meaning it was actually tight in the bow-producing configuration.  This mandolin also had burrs in the tuner posts that caused breakage of both E strings; I've filed those down.

This most recent arrival has a shipping-related ding in the very tip of the peghead.  I've examined both the original MK carton and the new MF carton and there are corresponding divots in both of them, so this ding must have happened during the most recent trip to me.  This mandolin also had a "missing" label until I found it floating around inside the body and glued it in place where it belongs.

The first one that came in (mine) was missing a tuner button screw; this was very promptly corrected through email correspondence by the Michael Kelly founder and very soon after by the director of QC, leaving me extremely favorably impressed with MK as a company.  There have been no other missing parts, and have been no broken parts with any of the MKLFSTB mandolins that I've handled.

The wood on each of these mandolins has been excellent.  The backs and sides are all very nicely figured and the back-halves are nicely bookmatched.  The necks on most of them are nicely figured; mine is pretty plain, but it plays well so I'm not worried about it.  The tops have all been sound and fine-grained.

There are enough differences among the four MKLFSTB mandolins that I've handled that I'm convinced that assembly and finish were done by hand, probably in different factory locations under different supervision and with differently focused attention to details.  Obviously none of them are perfect, but all of them are solidly built, and after a detailed setup they are all very playable.

The most important similarity between all of them that I've handled is the excellent tone and volume they produce.  They are consistently powerful and bright but with good growl and punch, and they have long sustain.  I suspect the heavy MK tailpiece, the hard and thin polyester finish and the ABS nut all contribute to this.

----------

MrYikes

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## Br1ck

Sorry, but I have more on the subject. Today I had a very limited 15 minutes in Gryphon, yeah, I know..... but I wanted to grab a few mandolins to compare my setup skills. I give myself a solid C so far, but the MK came as a total F to start with, and after the nut work, I was planning more fret work.


Played a Collins MT. Ok, not a fair fight by any stretch of the imagination. Collings exudes quality even in it's most basic form. It wasn't too loud though, but a very nice well rounded tone. Thinner than my Silverangel, but really nice.

I grabbed an Eastman MD 315. What a sleeper. Certainly the best bang for the buck with a very middle of the road tone. I liked it better than the 615 I picked up next. It had more presence.

Then I tried the Kentucky KM 150. Brighter but less punchy than the 315.

Overall I came away impressed with my MK. It is way more forward and brighter than the Eastmans, and more volume than all the others. Might not want it as a one and only, but much to like.

More importantly, it was a joy to play so many equally well set up mandolins in a fine shop. I need more than two minutes per instrument next time.

If I had to counsel a beginner, I'd much rather have someone start out with a Gryphon set up KM 150 than a more expensive box store mando. You could do a lot worse. The MT is solid, classy, elegant and expensive. That 315 was phenomenal value.

The MK is at least it's equal after a set up provided you like very bright mandolins. Certainly worth the $250 I payed, but not as it comes out of the box.

----------

dhergert, 

MrYikes

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## Verne Andru

> Certainly worth the $250 I payed, but not as it comes out of the box.


I certainly couldn't build an all solid wood f-style mandolin for $250. Not even sure I could get all the materials for that much.

Considering the materials costs and workmanship required just to make the parts and assemble them, I'm fine with doing a bit of setup at my end.

And lets not forget, all equipment makers expect their dealers to do prep work before they go out to customers, just like auto makers expect the dealer will prep a car before customers get to drive it. The phenomenon we're dealing with here is the "big box" retailers don't do any setup or prep to keep costs down, so you're taking from Peter to pay Paul. The problem is customers still expect a complete setup without paying for it.

----------

dhergert

----------


## dhergert

> ...The problem is customers still expect a complete setup without paying for it.


In fact, many casual customers (or beginning players) probably don't even realize that a setup is needed.  If they happen to get an instrument that already has been setup, they may not even realize that.

That's one thing that I appreciate about the Café, there are lots of discussions that make it clear that a setup is absolutely required in order to make a mandolin playable.

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## Br1ck

I talked to a guy, recently retired, who was just starting to play guitar. He had returned two sub $300 guitars because they were hard to play. What's worse, he had a teacher who didn't bother to check out either guitar, nor did any retailer mention setup. Now this is bad business for both parties, lost sale for the store, and a beginner likely to give up in a short time.

I took a few minutes to explain the importance of setup, and suggested he go to Gryphon. They will not only not sell junk, but will be supportive. They and other good retailers realize they are dealing with the Taylor and Martin buyers of the future.

No one had even explained ply vs. solid wood instruments to him. The guy was receptive  to spending more to get more. That Km 150 would do any beginner or intermediate player right. It just burns me up thinking of all the cheap mandos that might be in closets, and the players not playing them. I would count a non setup MK or anything else a wasted effort.

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## dhergert

Since I got my Gibson 2nd hand, I have no history about its original setup condition...  

Do more expensive mandolins ($2K and up) come already setup?

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> In fact, many casual customers (or beginning players) probably don't even realize that a setup is needed.  If they happen to get an instrument that already has been setup, they may not even realize that.
> 
> That's one thing that I appreciate about the Café, there are lots of discussions that make it clear that a setup is absolutely required in order to make a mandolin playable.


This is true. I think that because of the Cafe, most of us who purchased these bargain-price MKs knew what we were getting into at the jump. Part of the reason I bought mine was to have something cheap on which to practice my setup and (and largely non-existent) luthery skills. 

I want to express my thanks and admiration to Robert Fear at Folkmusician.com for all of his contributions to this thread and to this site in general. It seems to me that he has been very helpful here, cheerfully offering advice to those of us who've just purchased from a competitor. 

The situation reminds me of the selfless and gracious assistance Mr Foley offered to Aunt Bee after she bought all that beef from the bargain butcher!

----------

Folkmusician.com

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## dhergert

> ... I want to express my thanks and admiration to Robert Fear at Folkmusician.com for all of his contributions to this thread and to this site in general. It seems to me that he has been very helpful here, cheerfully offering advice to those of us who've just purchased from a competitor. 
> 
> The situation reminds me of the selfless and gracious assistance Mr Foley offered to Aunt Bee after she bought all that beef from the bargain butcher!


I'll enthusiastically second this...  And add that his objective and very helpful thoughts are cheerfully shared in lots of discussions.  Thank you Robert!

----------

Folkmusician.com

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## MrYikes

I had a little time before the jam session tonight so I made an arm rest and a back plate.  I can do better work,,really,,,,I mean honest I can.  And I will,,probably tomorrow.  I just wanted to see if it would work,,,and it did.
I wetted the back plate, then put on three rubber bands and a dowel rod to bend it while it dried.  That worked well.  The arm rest felt good.
But at the jam session, I still suck.

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dhergert

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## dhergert

Nice work!  Do these accessories improve tone and/or volume?

And just remember, suckiness is in the eye of the beholder...
(whatever that means  :Laughing:  )

----------


## Br1ck

Did a more detailed fret dressing today using Frank Ford's method with a plane and sandpaper. Got the frets perfectly leveled and crowned. Put the nut back on, strings back, and......nut slots not quite deep enough. Cut deeper slots, brought strings to tension, and even dropped the bridge height a bit. Pretty well good to go now. Plays cleanly up the fretboard.

I bought a machinest's straightedge years ago for my electric guitar builds. What a good thing to have around. Having to buy tools makes a $100 setup seem like a bargain. I was determined to use what I already had.

I took a bit off the Florida using a scraper made from a single edged razor blade. You just rake a round file along the edge creating a burr on one side of the edge, then use the burr side as the leading edge. This is slow going but works in lieu of power tools.

I think a second setup would go faster.

----------

dhergert

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## dhergert

> ... I think a second setup would go faster.


I thought that too after I did the setup on the first MK.  That lasted until I did some setups for other people.  In that situation I kept seeing other things I wanted near-perfect for them.  Oh, and then of course I had to go back and do or re-do those things on my MK.  Robert described this in a note above, I'm afraid it's true so lookout  :Grin: .

I heard one of those gifted MKs in the hands of its new owner last night -- wow.  He's an excellent and spirited mandolin player and he really hits his MK hard, but it sounds wonderful.  Easily as loud as my main playing banjo, maybe louder in the hands of this mandolin player, and clear, powerful and bright.  I was very pleased to have had some small part to do with him playing mandolin again.

And later, our fiddler received her MK last night and she really likes it.  She's a very experienced fiddler who we feel really glad plays in the band with us, but she's a newbie to mandolins so she has some beginner questions that I'm directing her to the Cafe about so she will get answers from other than just me.  She was already picking out fiddle tunes that she knows, so I don't anticipate any really problems for her.

Honestly, for me, that's been the best part of these "$199.00 solid F style mandolin"s...  Seeing and hearing them in the hands of people who really could use them.  We are big on Christmas, but we don't usually give $199 gifts...  But since these MKs are so good, and since they were available at an amazing price, we sort of cut some corners to make it happen; and then I added in the setup as needed to make sure they are good and usable for the new owners.  It's been a fun ramp-up to the season.

Gotta run, time for work!

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MrYikes

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## pops1

Nice going Don. I know what you mean about stores not saying anything or doing anything about setup. I am a setup fanatic, and want instruments to play well, you can't learn to drive at Indy with a VW.  I once did repairs for a store and the guitars they were selling, even with a set up, would not intonate. I told them to not sell them and get something that at least could be made playable. The store owner had no clue, just owned the store didn't play any string instrument. That store is long gone.

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dhergert

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## Verne Andru

> Since I got my Gibson 2nd hand, I have no history about its original setup condition...  
> 
> Do more expensive mandolins ($2K and up) come already setup?


It depends. I believe many of the smaller boutique builders who build locally and sell directly to the final customers will make sure the instrument is done right.

Builders like Gibson, who sell through the "channel," have had a pretty spotty history with setup. They were some of the worst offenders when it came to leaving setup to the retailers and suffered a huge back lash for selling $3K and up instruments that wouldn't play - and this was even before the online resellers got into the mix.

But I think times are changing and builders are more responsive to what's actually going on in the market, as opposed to what they think is going on. As an example, when I purchased an Epiphone Wildkat guitar from Guitar Center I was able to take it off the wall and have it play perfectly right off the start - which convinced me to buy it. I believe many of them, for guitars anyway, are now using Plek systems to sort out fret and setup problems before they ship from China.

But, as these MK's show, many builders are still leaving setup to the customer to figure out for themselves. I don't mind if it saves me money as I can do it myself, but I do mind on an expensive instrument that should have setup done as part of the deal.

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dhergert

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## Folkmusician.com

Thanks for the kind words guys! I am almost to 20 years of running Folkmusician.  While it is not a real lucrative business, I am able to pursue my passion. If we take the income portion out of the equation, I am just like you. A mandolin fanatic!   :Smile: 

If Don, orders many more of these, he may well become the current expert!   :Smile: 


As a general rule $2000+ mandolins do have much better factory setups, but the vast majority are still not perfect and benefit from a going over.  While running the repair business, I saw a whole lot of brand new multi-thousand dollar instrument with setup issues.  To put numbers to it, a high-end production mandolin may have a 80% setup done on it.  A low-end mandolin may have  a 20% setup done on it.  High-end mandolin, totally playable out of the box. Low end mandolin, almost unplayable out of the box.  Then lot's of in-between.

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dhergert, 

MrYikes

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## Br1ck

Let's not forget the climate changes between factory and customer. It would be unrealistic to demand perfection from a wood product. Martin might be the standard barer for slightly high action, probably due to their history being favored by bluegrass players. As we all know, it's easy to lower action.

One more detail needed to be delt with on the MK mandolins, the sharp corners on the bridge need to be rounded off, at least on the bass side.

I now have two mandolins at complete opposite ends of the sonic spectrum. My Silverangel is completely on the warm and woody end of things, the MK the bright and brash end of the spectrum. For comparison, the Eastman line is very much in the center, along with the Collings MT, which I always thought was bright. I think the MK can cut through any group situation.

I will restate my position that if you aren't pretty well equipped with tools, and have a sense of adventure and at least some mechanical aptitude, you'd be better off buying a nicely setup mandolin from Robert or another of our sponsors. 

And I'd like to be the friend of someone who gives mandolins away to others. I too have given instruments away on occasion as it is one of the most gratifying experiences imaginable.

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dhergert

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## Folkmusician.com

I tend to think a lot of otherwise good mandolins are completely dismissed due to poor factory setups. Br1ck is spot on about climate and that is one of the biggest reasons imports are at a big disadvantage. They can't set them up overseas and have them survive the months of harsh conditions before they reach dealers. It is futile, so they have to be setup much further down the supply chain. 

What I see from the imports is that they often have stretches where the setup work starts improving, then BAM, right back to where it was. I believe two things are at play. 

#1 There is a high turn-over rate for guys doing setup and I can't imagine otherwise. It is a hard job to do for 8 hours a day at minimal wages. Many of these warehouses are located in areas where the living expenses are crazy expensive. A setup guy can't make a living wage. Even if they love the job, the reality is that it is not a long term career. 

And #2: Instruments have to go out when dealers order, setup or not. A setup guy can't do more than 5-10 "good" setups per day". If you only have a couple of guys, to setup hundreds of instruments (and this is the case), lot's of things end up going out with little to no setup work. I receive mandolins that have some obvious (though minimal) setup work, and in the same shipment, some that have obviously never been looked at. Bridge blanks that have never been fit, etc..

The musical instrument business is still a bit wild-west.   :Smile:

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dhergert

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## MrYikes

> Nice work!  Do these accessories improve tone and/or volume?
> 
> And just remember, suckiness is in the eye of the beholder...
> (whatever that means  )



In this case it's the ear that's beholding.  And yes they worked,,so much so that I had to play quieter or I would have been heard.  The back plate felt good.  I was worried that it would cause the mando to stick out and be uncomfortable.  And they fit into my little gig bag.  By next week I'll have made a case for the mandolin.

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dhergert

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## Willie Poole

I just think any music store that is expecting to make money on sales should have a set up man on hand to do the set ups when the instruments arrive from the factory/builders, having the builders do it and then shipping them to the far corners of the world isn`t a good idea as Robert stated...I have gone into a few stores that had some high quality mandolins hanging on the rack and the set ups were terrible, no way anyone would want to buy those at the asking price and if any questions are asked they think they  know it all and come up with a bunch of sales talk and hype, I say let the mandolins speak for them selves, when we play one we know if it is a "keeper"

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dhergert

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## dhergert

> In this case it's the ear that's beholding.  And yes they worked,,so much so that I had to play quieter or I would have been heard.  The back plate felt good.  I was worried that it would cause the mando to stick out and be uncomfortable.  And they fit into my little gig bag.  By next week I'll have made a case for the mandolin.


Very good, I'm glad they work for you...  

That's my experience with the official tone guard also.  For me the change in playing geometry with just the tone guard is imperceptible and it makes a good difference in volume and tone with both my Gibson and my MK.  

But I do go 2 steps further with the armrest and pickguard, which do continue isolating the instrument from the muting influence of a connected body.  Both of them do change the playing geometry enough to feel the difference though; in my case that's what I want, but that may not work for everyone.  Happily they all fit in a standard F-style case installed on the mandolin.

Oh, and btw, MF no longer has any MKLFSTB mandolins available.  The sales appear to be over now.

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## MrYikes

Why a pick guard?  Do you put a pinky on it while picking or is there a chance of hitting the table when strumming?  One of the pics shows my arm rest.  It's pretty small cause my arm doesn't move much.
I scared the cats last night.  I received the pick sampler package and started banging away testing the volume on each.  As I don't normally play loud they felt threatened.  The picks with round corners were very sultry but had no volume at all.

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## dhergert

> Why a pick guard?  Do you put a pinky on it while picking or is there a chance of hitting the table when strumming?  ....


Yes, it's a carry-over from my finger-style banjo playing, I'm used to anchoring my picking hand with my pinky.  Many banjo players anchor with the pinky and their ring finger.  And I'm talking planting on the banjo head, not just brushing the fingers there...

But it's not just that.  I'm a big believer in not muting an instrument's vibrating surface.  To that end, even on banjos, I use pickguards (aka head-guards or finger-rests).  So on all my main playing banjos (4 of them: bluegrass banjo, classic banjo and cello banjo plus my backup bluegrass banjo) I have pickguards installed to keep my fingers off the head.  I've been playing that way for about 15 years now (out of 46 years).  That's pretty unusual among banjo players, but it's what I like and am used to, and it works out pretty well.  With banjos, you gain literally about 10% of the volume if you don't plant your fingers on the head, so you can literally hear the difference just with that change.

Mandolins are a little more subtle, but every little bit helps.  I'd say with the tone guard and armrest and pickguard, I may gain about 7% to 10%, but with mandolin there is also a depth related tone difference from isolating the vibrating surfaces.

So for me it's pretty natural to use pickguards on mandolins also.  Aside from isolating the vibrating surfaces, armrests, pickguards and tone guards protect the finish on the top and back of the mandolin, which is also important to some people.  That's a whole different topic though.

Btw, that's great that your armrest doesn't change your playing geometry.  Good innovating there!

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MrYikes

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## Br1ck

With the unavailability of the MKLFSTB, how long will this thread last? I'm sort of glad though, as I was eyeing another for absolutely no good reason other than enjoying the setup challenge. I wonder how many they had to sell. I wonder how many went to uninformed buyers who are wondering how anyone could play such a difficult instrument. Who will get the first e bay given up on instrument?

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## Folkmusician.com

I offered the LM-520 without setup at a heavy discount for awhile.  It had a very high return rate.  I did this mostly as a test, and it did prove that when offered the choice, most people are not willing to pay more for a setup. And no matter how well you explain what this entails, it tends to fall on deaf ears. 

Mandolin Cafe readers are much more informed than the general would be mandolin players. I don't think we are always in touch with the mindset of the average buyer and we are certainly not in the majority. Most people look at instruments just as they would any other consumer product.  Hence the rise of the big-box/ecommerce stores that now dominate.

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## dhergert

It's been a good run as far as I'm concerned.  I'm very pleased with my MKLFSTB, and three of my friends are very pleased with theirs.  

Like others in this discussion have voiced, I do hope no one who is completely new to mandolins -- and possibly completely new to any instruments -- has ordered one of these without knowing that they need to be setup before they will be really playable.

I've done building of banjos from scratch and have done a myriad of fretted instrument repair and setup jobs from back in the late '70s and early '80s when I was trying to be serious about a career in music, and of course I've kept every easily-transportable tool that I ever acquired.  And I have setup every personal instrument that I play, including my F9 which did require some fret leveling and a new nut when I got it, plus accessory installations, etc.  So I wasn't too afraid of the MK setup...  

But, a good setup is a lot of work that takes a good amount of time to do right, and it is one of those things that is sort of a labor of love without much recognition.  If a person has never done a detailed setup themselves, they probably have no idea how much work and thought goes into it when it is done well.

My experience with these mandolins has especially increased my respect for the mandolin specialty stores and owners that include a detailed setup with each mandolin that is sold...  

Robert, suffice it to say that you and Folkmusician.com are at the top of my recommendation list.

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## Jim Garber

> With the unavailability of the MKLFSTB, how long will this thread last?


I have a feeling that MF will be selling more of these at a deep discount once they get them in stock. Just a hunch...  :Smile:

----------

dhergert, 

MikeEdgerton

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## Folkmusician.com

> I have a feeling that MF will be selling more of these at a deep discount once they get them in stock. Just a hunch...


I would wonder about this myself, if I didn't know the answer...    :Wink: 
MK Mandolins are being redesigned and there will be changes to the line. This model is not supposed to be back.

The goal here is to have them off the 2016 books. I am the one charged with selling off all of the Dragonflys (which I have just about done), though I have no idea how MF sold these at $199, because my deal was no-where near that discount.

----------

dhergert

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## MrYikes

So we have the generation 1 of MK mandolins.  In the car world, those are the most desired.  And I have to believe, this thread will help MK understand what should be addressed.  And of course, we have given them very, very valuable PR.  To balance the equation, they should send a new generation 2 to Don for all his efforts.  Are you listening, MK?

----------

dhergert

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## Folkmusician.com

Agreed!

Send Don a Prototype!

I think we are actually on like generation 5 though.   :Smile:

----------

dhergert, 

MrYikes

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## dhergert

Thanks for the thoughts guys...

I'd love to see one, but honestly I think that MK would achieve a better critical development dialogue by sending a sample to a mandolin player who uses standard GDAE tuning.  

I'm sort of out here in my own little world with taropatch (GCEG) tuning; not that I don't prefer this tuning for my personal use, but it is pretty far off the beaten path.

I really think MK is going to have to go a long way with the next generation to match the power and quality of tone of the Legacy Festivals...  I still scratch my balding head when I compare my MK with my F9.  They are both sounding great, and the differences are extremely subtle.

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## Br1ck

Any ideas on where MK is heading in the marketplace? Are they striving to build a more upscale market share? Compete with the likes of Eastman and Kentucky? Perhaps just dominate the + or- $500 range, or all the above.

Anyway, I've been living in the rarefied air of mid to high level instruments, and am quite shocked that I'm enjoying my MK as much as I am. I'll probably strive to duplicate the setup of my Silverangel. I'm about 85% there. Mostly I'm concerned with going too low on the nut. I do know all about superglue and pixie dust.

----------


## Folkmusician.com

I have talked to them about the direction they are headed.  Without saying too much, it sounds like the plan is to improve the mandolins, but target the same price range.  The models will be scaled back so they can concentrate on quality. 

Many of you may remember, that MK was the dominant brand a decade or so ago. I believe they were the best selling for a couple of years. That was also at the peak of mandolin popularity (or at least in my lifetime). I sold a crazy amount of them and nothing has ever topped them in sales volume. I am selling a lot of Eastman's Kentucky's and The Loar's now, but nothing like the MK run we saw.   :Smile:

----------


## Verne Andru

Robert - are these MKLFSTB Legacy Festival's the same instrument they were selling in their Festival Pack?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/folk-...-pack-mandolin

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...t-at-the-price

----------


## Folkmusician.com

> Robert - are these MKLFSTB Legacy Festival's the same instrument they were selling in their Festival Pack?


Why yes, it is!     But they did have some changes in the model a few years ago. There were at least two variations and maybe three with the Festival model over the years.

----------

Verne Andru

----------


## dhergert

Not necessarily wishing to bring this thread back to life, but for those who want to hear my MKLFSTB and my F9 in use for comparison purposes, they are both played here in this Cafe' thread:

Santa takes a break

For comparison purproses, both of these recordings are done with the same recording equipment and the same settings and the recordings are completely raw.  Just different mandolins and different songs.  First recording is with the F9, and then a few posts down, the second recording is with the MKLFSTB.

Please excuse my extremely casual playing skils...

----------


## Willie Poole

I will say this...The MK sounds terrific, I am curious as to what string you use to get that tuning of GCEG?  Or do you make up your own sets?  I`ve never used anything but the standard tuning but you never know, I might just try something different...

    Willie

----------


## dhergert

> ... I am curious as to what string you use to get that tuning of GCEG?  Or do you make up your own sets?  I`ve never used anything but the standard tuning but you never know, I might just try something different...


Willie, I partially make my own sets... I use the two wound .039 and two wound .026 strings from D'Addario EFT74 FlatTop string set for course 4 (G) and course 3 (C). And I use two D'Addario loop end .017 non-wound singles for course 2 (E) and two D'Addario loop end .015 non-wound singles for course 1 (g).

I do like the wound .015 FlatTop "A" strings that come with the EFT74 sets and have tried them for my first course "high g" strings, but I wear the very fine windings on these strings out far to quickly so I prefer to use the non-wound .015 singles.

Btw, I do use the same GCEg tuning and the same string sets as described above for both mandolins -- I changed strings on both mandolins when I setup my MKLFSTB so I could compare it more accurately with my F9.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

I've been way too busy to find the time to set mine up. I dropped it off at my local luthier friend with the instructions to make it play with the action as low as possible. I'm giving it to a non-string player that wants to take it up as a gift. Polished the fret ends, took care of a few that were high and the action on this is like a Strat. I had him put on light strings. I know that will affect how it sounds but it still sounds good, plays easily. My biggest complaint is about the adhesive they used on the country of origin sticker on the back of the headstock. I had to use WD-40 to get it off, then had to get the WD-40 off. Alcohol wouldn't even touch it. Overall I'm really pretty pleased with this.

By the way, it's going out in a rectangular TDK case that a Gibson Fern came in a few years back. The case probably cost a good chunk of what the mandolin did.  :Smile:

----------


## Verne Andru

> My biggest complaint is about the adhesive they used on the country of origin sticker on the back of the headstock. I had to use WD-40 to get it off, then had to get the WD-40 off. Alcohol wouldn't even touch it.


Rubber Cement remover or Contact Cement cleaner will clean up that goo quick as a wink!

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Usually lemon pledge or the like will remove it easily. This one was unusual to say the least. The label came off easily, it just left the residue in place.

----------


## jim simpson

I used a hair dryer and WD-40 to remove the dealer name off of the rear of my vehicle. That stuff was stubborn. I wonder if Goo Gone would work better on the instrument?

----------


## dhergert

I used WD-40 to remove the sticker...  And then plain (non-lotion) Kleenex to remove the WD-40.  It's gone.

Of course if you remove the country of origin sticker the resale value will be much lower.   :Cool:

----------


## Br1ck

Someone will be in for a rude shock when it goes to the Antiques Roadshow in 75 years. Complete, all original, never made playable MKs from the great sell off of '16 will put one's kids through college. Remove the sticker, you only get a year. Touch the frets, an hour and a half. Cut off the Florida, firewood.


Seriously, I'm shocked at the amount of playing time it's getting.

----------

dhergert, 

MrYikes

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> ...Of course if you remove the country of origin sticker the resale value will be much lower....


Yes, but the sticker won't slow you down when you're playing down there on the first fret. I get it that it's a law that imported items have to have the country of origin clearly listed. Why not just put it on the label?

Then again Gibson had to stamp Made in the USA on their export models back in the 30's.

----------

dhergert

----------


## dhergert

> ... Then again Gibson had to stamp Made in the USA on their export models back in the 30's.


... As well as their banjos up through the mid '80s.

Of course, I was being extremely sarcastic about resale value related to the sticker.  The real value of these MK mandolins is how free we all feel with them because of their low cost.  Which we owe a big thanks to you for bringing them up...

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> ...The real value of these MK mandolins is how free we all feel with them because of their low cost.  Which we owe a big thanks to you for bringing them up...


I just saw it first. Who knew they'd have so many  :Cool:

----------

dhergert, 

MrYikes

----------


## Chris Daniels

So, I was browsing MF's after-xmas clearance sale and guess what's back in stock...still for $199. I don't need one but how could I not pass on the news?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/folk-...tival-mandolin

C.

----------

dhergert

----------


## MikeEdgerton

They must have a quantity. I just added 10 to my cart and they took and didn't stop me, and no, I didn't buy them  :Cool: 

This is the best buy F style these days. Plan on having it setup.

----------

David Watson, 

dhergert, 

farmerjones

----------


## MrYikes

MK: Send one of these to Don.  He will set it up and donate it to Mandolin Cafe who will then name it "The Traveler" and send it to people on a list (who have signed up).  Those receiving "The Traveler" will post video playing in differing locations around the world (i.e., the Kentucky derby, the Indy 500, the Grand Canyon, New Orleans, etc.).  The continuing PR would be priceless.  Your friend, Bob.

----------

David Watson, 

dhergert

----------


## dhergert

He he hee...  Well what do you know...  One of the miracles of marketing I guess.

Get them while they're hot, they won't last forever -- maybe.

I'm still extremely pleased with mine!  (As are three other people at least...)

----------


## Paul Hird

Just went to the MF site and they say they have 1 of the $199.00 MK's in stock. It, for whatever reason is a restock, so they state.

----------


## dhergert

> Just went to the MF site and they say they have 1 of the $199.00 MK's in stock. It, for whatever reason is a restock, so they state.


Yes, Paul...  That's actually the way it was when Mike originally started this thread on September 21.  The first day we all thought there was really only one.  Then up to the end of the first week, all of us thought there were only a few available.  After that we started taking it for granted that there were a lot of them, until they seemed to be gone.  Now "They're back...".

Don't get me wrong though, these do seem to be rather good playing and sounding mandolins.  

As Mike and others have mentioned, they almost all need setup, including fret leveling, dressing, nut work and bridge seating work, and for quite a few, truss rod adjustment.  There may be other issues too, but those seem pretty consistent.  In other words, for the most part when they arrive they haven't been setup at all.

Whether these have all actually been restocks or not is a good question.  A number of us have received our mandolins in the original sealed factory boxes.

After setup though, these mandolins consistently have a loud, bright voice, excellent low-string bark and remarkable sustain.

----------


## dhergert

Btw, here's how MF currently defines their "restock" items (seemingly unchanged from when this sale originally appeared):

"
_What is Restock?

Restock products may have signs of use or other forms of cosmetic damage that do not affect playability or performance. They may also have worn or non-original packaging.

Restocks are factory authorized B stock or C stock that have been returned by retailers for a variety of reasons and have been reviewed, repaired, or repackaged by the manufacturer. Standards of quality vary from one manufacturer to another.

Restock Guarantees

In most cases Restock products are guaranteed by the manufacturer to function or play perfectly and are covered by a manufacturers warranty. Some manufacturers offer a warranty with a shorter duration than new products. Restocks are eligible for extended warranty Gold Coverage and are also covered by our Musicians Friend 100% Satisfaction Guarantee. Order risk-free and take up to 45 days to check out the gear before deciding to keep it._
"

----------


## Paul Hird

Thanks, Don. Good information to know. Not that I need another mandolin, but just buying it for the price and hearing what it sounds like would be fun. Geez, did I just say I didn't need another mandolin!?  :Smile:

----------

dhergert

----------


## dhergert

That's what I thought for maybe about 5 minutes.  Then I realized that for $199 I almost couldn't afford not to try this deal out.  I had been looking for a "beater" for backup and that I could travel with, but what I got was a surprisingly nice mandolin, especially after complete setup.  

I've gone the extra steps of setting my MK up as similarly to my F-9 as possible as far as the tone guard, armrest and pickguard are concerned, and with both instruments wearing new strings of the same type it challenges my Gibson in a number of ways; my F-9 is still my favorite mandolin, but the differences are very subtle.

----------


## Br1ck

I played mine all day yesterday. I usually alternate, but I can play the MK, and do if it is the one I can grab, since I tend to have it out within reach. I also yet again tweaked on it with good results. Thid time the truss rod to straighten the neck out more. Then I had to raise the treble side of the bridge to compensate. It plays very close to my Silverangel now.

It is very bright, but that works too, since the SA is so woody.

If you think you can do the work, it is a super value, and even if you pay for a setup, it is hard to go wrong. Really. It will need a case or gigbag, but still, all solid wood for two C notes....

A friend played mine and asked if they were still available. I just e mailed him.

----------

David Watson, 

dhergert

----------


## Folkmusician.com

I just finished selling off the last of the Dragonflys. There were about 30 of these when I started.

I wouldn't expect this new batch of festivals to last long and they should be pretty close to gone. As far as I know, MK did not have any left. This is likely something left over in the MF warehouse or they received a whole lot of returns, which wouldn't be surprising if people were trying them without setup.  :Smile:

----------

dhergert

----------


## Joe Mendel

Here's another MF good deal, but on a guitar. This was yesterday's deal, but still appears to be the same price today. I don't care for the graphics. but I've done set up on a few of these and they sound very good and play very well. Can't beat it for $150.00.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guita...&CJPID=5696037

----------

dhergert

----------


## Mando_Lynn

A generous cafe poster purchased one of the MKs during the first round and donated it to my school.  Had it shipped directly to us!  Man oh man do the kids LOVE this mandolin!  It's the only F style we have at school (among 15 other mandos all A style) and they beg to be the one to play it.  I tell them whoever knows their music the best gets it.  LOL!  

I only had to get a simple set up done and it was only $15 so it was a major score!

----------

darrylicshon, 

dhergert, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

jhowell, 

MikeEdgerton, 

MrYikes, 

pops1, 

Verne Andru

----------


## dhergert

So cool...  That is a contribution to the future!

----------

Mando_Lynn

----------


## Caleb

Great story. Makes one realize that if not for budget instruments like these, many people would never get the chance to learn music.

----------

Mando_Lynn

----------


## Willie Poole

I tried to go onto their web site to see about one and it would not accept my e mail address and password...I thought about calling them on the phone and may still do it but do I really need another mandolin that needs work done to it?  I don`t thing so....

----------


## dhergert

> So, I was browsing MF's after-xmas clearance sale and guess what's back in stock...still for $199. I don't need one but how could I not pass on the news?
> 
> http://www.musiciansfriend.com/folk-...tival-mandolin
> 
> C.


I just browsed over to the MF site and they are now saying these are unavailable.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

It has to end sometime  :Smile:

----------


## dhergert

Yup...  It's been a good run!

----------


## Br1ck

I would think Robert Fear's analysis of the recent batch being returns was correct. Mine had very bad action. I could see where one would think it was a bad mandolin.

Thanks to the kind soul who donated one to the school. I can't imagine anything that can enrich a life over so long a time as playing an instrument, or that can make such a contribution to ones well being and continued mental sharpness as one ages.

----------

dhergert, 

Mando_Lynn

----------


## darrylicshon

> I just browsed over to the MF site and they are now saying these are unavailable.


That's good for me i was just thinking about buying one and i really don't need another one

----------

dhergert

----------


## dhergert

Well we're in the 6th month now since Mike let us know about these MKLFSTB mandolins.  I had mine within the first week and had pretty much completed setup within the 2nd week.  Upon completing setup, I changed strings on both my MK and my F9, at approximately the same time and with exactly the same type of EFT74 strings, and both of these instruments continue to wear the same strings now.

I got my MKLFSTB out today and played it for about an hour, as I do typically a couple times a week, trading off with my F9 with equal time.  While I had it out I also pulled out my F9 for comparison, which is something I haven't done for a while...

I can tell the strings on both instruments are not new anymore...  I tend to prefer to play lightly, so the strings aren't fatigued yet, but that new-string presence is now gone which I sort of prefer.  For both instruments I continue to clean and wipe-down the strings completely, each time after I finish playing, so the strings are clean and free of gunk whenever I play.  

The volume from both mandolins continues to be very good and functional for my playing... But the mandolins are both doing some interesting things regarding tone.  On the MK, the treble side continues to be very bright and loud while the bass side in comparison is now more subdued.  The F9 is doing almost the opposite, the treble side is very slightly subdued, while the bass side is noticeably louder and prominent.  I'd say the balance between low and high registers is best on the F9 now, but neither of them are poorly balanced.  

I like this difference.  The MK brightness and volume in the higher register makes it a potential strong jam player...  And the F9 power in the lower register makes it a great solo or band instrument.

I'm still battling the scooped florida a little with the MK, but I'm getting noticeably better at avoiding the pick-clicking.  I think another month or two and I'll have that down.

At a recent festival I took the MK out relatively early one morning (politely after 8am), before most people got out of bed after a late night of jamming...  And I just sort of anonymously played mostly mellow solo tunes.  The MK sounded very good and I got a lot of very positive comments about it.  Without reservation, I'm very glad to have both the F9 and the MK.  With both of them setup as similarly as possible, and with their different voices, I'm really enjoying playing both of them.  And I'm still getting very happy comments from the three people who I got these mandolins for.  In fact one of these people writes me every week or two, complaining that his banjo is getting very little attention lately.

My intent with the MK was that it would be my beater -- my travel, backup and beach instrument...  I don't think I'll ever want it to really be a beater or a beach instrument though.  Only because of its price-tag, I will travel by air or internationally with the MK instead of my F9, but I'll hope nothing bad happens to the MK on these trips, because I like it a lot.  While the F9 is my favorite for in front of people for all the right reasons plus the esthetic reasons, I won't hesitate to use the MK in front of people whenever I have an excuse to do so.

I'd be very interested to hear from others here about their experiences up to this time with their "$199.00 solid F style mandolin"...

----------


## Verne Andru

Since I've still not been down to visit my bro so all I know of mine are the few pictures he sent me. This is not helpful.  :Grin:

----------


## dhergert

Hmmm, you're very patient.  I don't know if I could have waited that long, even for a mandolin that cost only $199.  The curiosity would have gotten to me by now, if nothing else.  

 :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Verne Andru

Not patient - I'm using it as on-going therapy to deal with my obsessive-compulsive disorder.  :Crying:

----------

dhergert, 

MikeEdgerton

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> I'd be very interested to hear from others here about their experiences up to this time with their "$199.00 solid F style mandolin"...


Nothing much to report here dhergert. After the set-up (some fret leveling, nut adjustment, bridge fit etc), narrowing the neck profile along with a few other alterations, I really like it. 
Using it as a travel mandolin that I don't worry about. Toting it around in a cheap, semi-soft case that gets left in the rental car for extended periods. It's now been to Georgia a couple of times, Florida three or four times, and last week to Michigan (single digit temps). No problems.
I'm very happy with it and still glad I bought it. 

Side note: I visited a shop in Florida that has a small selection of MK mandolins. I was there a few years ago and remember pretty much dismissing those instruments. I have to say that since my experience with these $199 MKs and the great customer service, I realized that I look at them now in a different light.

----------

dhergert

----------


## Br1ck

I got in at the at the end, when the new in box  MKs cost $249. I was very wary of overdoing the fret leveling, so I did things bit by bit over five or six set up sessions. I had it what I thought was pretty good, so played it as it was for a month. I had scooped the Florida, but I really found the sweet spot to be over the last two frets. It was really bugging me, so when I changed the strings, out came the fret nippers and off came the two frets, then the Dremel tool came out so now the entire Florida is scooped. I got out the plane with the sandpaper double sided taped to the bottom and went after the upper frets with the fretboard as flat as the truss rod would allow. I dressed the frets, oiled the fretboard, strung it up, added a bit of relief and the Mandolin came alive. It gained a clarity it had not had, I guess I had an inaudible to me bit of buzz that was killing the tone.

Yes, the MK is bright, but my Silverangel is quite the opposite, so the different flavor is nice. Now the kicker is how much play time it gets because it lays out on my desktop within reach. The G string continues to improve, as do the rest of the strings. In the end it is what it is, which is a mandolin that will hold it's own with the $500-800 imports, and better some of them. Not bad for the investment, and I am confident of my setup abilities now. The fit and finish will never be good, but the tone and playability for the price more than make up for it.

Never be the equal of my SA, but also something I can happily play for hours.

----------

dhergert

----------


## Folkmusician.com

This has been a great thread to follow.  I setup somewhere around 30 Dragonflys (until they were gone) for Christmas orders and I was thinking of you all.  "At least I am not the only one going through this"!   :Smile:

----------

dhergert

----------


## dhergert

Ironically, you were my inspiration for doing a good job of setup on the four I handled...  

There must be some intrinsic "brotherhood of the setup person"...

And/or sisterhood...

 :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Br1ck

One of the big and important lessons learned in this process is how much tone is getting wasted. I was in a large music store that carried maybe 200 acoustic guitars up to $8000, and they had six mandolins. Three were laminate cheapies, one KM 150, an Eastman 315, and a 700 or 800. They all sucked. Now if I were trying that KM 150, I'd be wondering what all the 150 admirers were thinking, and the Eastmans too. Then you go play the same model somewhere like Gryphon and it's a whole new ballgame.

I had the same impression with my MK. Hard to play, thin sounding, no low end at all. Now it is something a beginner could really enjoy learning on, and a mandolin I'm happy to own. This is why I would always steer  a beginner to an online mandolin dealer doing quality setups. Something like a KM 150 with a setup is a great bargain.

----------

dhergert

----------


## Verne Andru

So, I finally got my hands on my MK after a visit with family. Here's a few of my initial thoughts:

Good:

Lots of volume.
Tuned up and played up the neck without a buzz - but action is a bit high (which is what you want from the factory).
Pre-reliced.
Nice comfy neck.
Solid and serviceable tuning machines.
Solid 1-piece bridge.
Nice "factory" setup.
Well scooped Florida.
Bridge mated to top nicely.
Meaty frets.
No sharp fret-ends
Radius-ed fretboard.
Cool dot-inlays.
Nice nut.

Not so:

Lots of finish "flaws." In some places it looks like it was carved with a pocked-knife.
Fretboard needs to be sanded and oiled - lots of scuffs.
Seems like the truss rod is one-direction only.

There was quite a bit of relief in the neck, so I loosened the truss-rod and dropped the bridge for better playing action. That, of course, meant a loss of some volume and some fret buzzing. There's a bit of a hump at the 12th fret, so a fret-level is next on the list plus some work on the nut slots.

All in all, it's a player's piece, for sure. Not much of a looker but since it's supposed to be a knock-about, a bit of pre-relicing can be a good thing.

As far as sound, it's a bit "tubby" to my ear. I can't really see much, if any, re-curve, so not sure if it's a pressed or carved top. Anyone know?

My Paris Swing just smokes it in all categories though. The PS is like a Maserati and the MK more like a 4-door Chevy. Even the tone of the PS is much more refined than the MK.

But for the money, no complaints here.

I'll try and write more once I've had a chance to do a proper setup.

----------

dhergert

----------


## Verne Andru

I've had a bit more time to become acquainted with my MK Festival (much easier to remember than that number).

I leveled, dressed and polished the frets. Most of the work above the 12th. Good thing they used big frets as I had to bring some down quite a bit to get it level up and down the fretboard. Lowered the nut slots, strung her up and she's playing in the sweet spot. Might tweak it a bit as time goes on and climate change expansion/contraction sometimes need addressing, but nothing major.

I find myself picking it up and quickly losing touch with time, so its definitely enjoyable to play and hear. Nice big voice with a great snap that only comes from a solid-wood build.

Only minor issues have to do with finish, but it's not intended to compete in the bling department, so it is what it is.

I remember looking at the MK Festival's when first searching for a nice mandolin. IIRC these have a hybrid top - the area around the scroll is carved (sometimes by hand - CNC would be my guess here) but the soundboard is pressed or induced into an archtop. The lack of recurve and a tone that's got a bit of boxiness to it suggest that's the case here. I tried looking under the top with a dental mirror and, unlike the bottom which definitely is carved, the underside of the top shows no signs of any distress that may come from carving. But the point is how it plays and sounds and I've got no argument with either.

Thanks for pointing these out as they were an excellent deal on an all solid f-style mandolin for those of us lucky enough to snag one (or more).

----------

dhergert, 

FLATROCK HILL

----------


## dhergert

It sounds like the finish of yours was a little worse than the four MKs that I've handled.  That said, none of those four are exactly eye candy boutique quality in finish.  They all had a number of mostly minor finish flaws out of the box and there were also a fair number of small design inconsistencies from mandolin to mandolin.  To me the inconsistencies point to more hand work than CNC work, but that's just a guess on my part.  The finish flaws were sort of what I expected since these MKs were at least officially re-stocks.  All four MKs that I handled have required a detailed setup including significant fret leveling and fret dressing like you've described your MK needed. 

Whether these MKs were really re-stocks, or maybe just not the highest quality finish work, they've all consistently sounded quite good after a good setup.  All three of the other owners that we provided these MKs for have really enjoy theirs, and I get good reviews from them whenever I see them.  All in all these were a great investment of $199.

When the specs for these were up on the MK site, they were said to be hand carved top and back...  No mention of pressure or any other inducement.  That said, who knows???   :Smile:  

I have read that MK re-visited the design of the Legacy Festival mandolins mid-production, to my memory including changes to the tailpiece which used to be a more traditional sheet metal stamped affair.  I don't know what else changed, but here are the specs that I grabbed before they were gone:

"
The Michael Kelly Legacy Festival Mandolin is a classic F-Style mandolin made in Michael Kelly's long-lasting tradition of quality. A solid hand-carved spruce top and solid maple body give this mandolin amazing tonal vibrance and clarity, while the radiused rosewood fingerboard makes it easy to play. Pearl dot inlays, high-quality Grover tuners and an ABS nut contribute to the instrument' beauty, stability and superior sound. Michael Kelly's own proprietary one-piece tailpiece gives the mandolin added resonance and allows for easy string changes. All of this combines to make this a mandolin of outstanding quality and value.

Features
Solid, hand-carved spruce top
Solid maple body
Radiused rosewood fingerboard
Pearl dot inlays
Grover tuner
ABS nut
One-piece tailpiece for added resonance and easy string changes

SPECIFICATIONS

BODY
Top: Solid Spruce
Body: Solid Maple
Binding: 5 ply white -black
Construction: Dovetail

NECK
Neck: Maple
Binding: Single-Ply White
Fretboard: Rosewood
Number of Frets: 24
Inlays: Pearl Dots
Headstock: F-Style Mandolin
Scale Length 13 7/8 in / 352.425 mm
Nut Material: ABS
Nut Type: Standard
Nut Width: 28.6mm

HARDWARE
Hardware Finish: Chrome
Tuning Keys: Grover®
Bridge Type: Rosewood
"

I'm really glad you're enjoying you MK!  I hope the same for everyone else here!

----------

Verne Andru

----------


## Verne Andru

The finish flaws on mine are relatively minor and relegated largely to the scroll area and curls around the headstock. Some look like a wayward chisel work, but all minor. The finish was sprayed unevenly along the side of the scroll and there's an unfinished/stained patch under the Florida on the soundboard. You have to be looking closely to spot them.

One of the "tricks" some of the imports use is to advertise a hand-carved solid top, but do a pressed/induced arch and some hand-carving to the scroll. This way they are "technically" correct while being misleading.

I'm not suggesting MK was out to trick anyone, just the definitions seem to have become a bit fluid over time so we don't really know what we're getting. If it was a hand-carved solid spruce top, in the f-5 tradition, there should be some recurve as to do otherwise would be a lost opportunity.

But the proof's in the pudding, and it plays and sounds well over it's $199 price tag. While my Paris Swing smokes it in every way, it's not really a fair comparison as the PS was their top of the line while this Festival is near the bottom of MK's offerings.

----------


## Br1ck

Did we ever figure out how many of these were sold to Mandolin Cafe members?

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> Did we ever figure out how many of these were sold to Mandolin Cafe members?


That would be interesting. You have to realize we have a whole lot of people that read the Cafe and aren't members. It did become a Best Seller by the way  :Smile:

----------


## Br1ck

I kind of hate to dredge this thread up again, but as time goes on I'm getting more of an appreciation for these mandolins.

First of all, I had the privilege of going to The Mandolin store and playing a bunch of mandolins, and the MK played and sounded as good as any of the imports up to the Kentucky master built line. Little difference to my ear from the Eastman 615 or the Kentucky 756 I played. That is remarkable in itself, but more so considering all the work necessary to get the MK sounding it's best. 

Now put a Flatiron Festival or Gibson F9 against it and it's another ballgame intirely.

Then there is the fact that most of these mid level imports have a G string that is lacking, and I've tried to describe this to little success, tinnyness, boingyness, whatever. I hear this sound a lot and don't like it. This seems to be going away with playing time. I'd be very interested to know if this happens with most imports or not. It would change my whole perspective on what I would look at as an upgrade. I just haven't played any Eastmans ot Kentuckys with much playing time on them.

Then there is the fact I took my MK on a road trip to the desert and was worry free I would damage it. All in all, probably the best value I've gotten in an instrument, but it was a lot of effort to get it playing and sounding this good.

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dhergert

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## dhergert

The road-trip / beater / beach mandolin concept is the reason I originally got into these MK Legacy Festival mandolins.  Now I treat mine just like my F9; I really wouldn't want to beat it up because of how good it sounds.  

My MK is still a little stronger on the treble side than my F9.  The bass side is actually quite good.  Volume is very very close to the F9, although the F9 still sounds noticably richer and has a better growl in the chops.  But I wouldn't be embarrassed at all to play my MK on stage, and I can see a time coming up when that might actually happen.  I'm using the same setup, including the same age flat-tops on both mandolins, so the comparison is really pretty fair.

I agree that it took a labor of love to get these mandolins sounding this way, but considering the comparisons I'd opine that the work was well worth while.  I remember spending almost as much time working on my F9 when I first got it.

I really appreciate your discussion of the freedom on the road trip concept.  I've felt that a lot too and I've heard the same thing from the folks that we purchased these mandolins for, as well as from others here in this thread.  

With one of the MK gifts we gave, the owner has truncated the fingerboard, changed the bridge to a custom made bridge, speed-necked the neck and polished the body to gloss.  He also gets this idea about freedom, and he loves this mandolin.  It does everything that he wants it to do and more.  This pro musician has traveled and played with Frank Wakefield, so he knows what a good mandolin sounds like, and he raves about his MK.

I'm grateful to Mike and the Cafe' for bringing this blowout sale to our attention.  They really did me a favor at just the right time and right place in my mandolin experience.

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## Jeff Mando

> Then there is the fact I took my MK on a road trip to the desert and was worry free I would damage it.


Just curious, did you go by camel or horseback?  :Laughing:  :Wink:  :Crying:

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## Br1ck

Actually, l took a camel two day trip into the Arizona desert years ago. Not my favorite animal, but far superior to a horse in these conditions.nRemember the Have Gun, Will Travel episode where he's in a desert race and shows up with a camel? That dates me for sure. Seriously, I treat my MK with care, but it's less stress in less than ideal conditions and high temp was 85, which is cool for Phoenix this time of year.

I played two F 9s at the Mandolin Store, a new one and an older one. The new one was very impressive, the older one not so much. 

I do leave the MK out on a desktop, within reach. It gets a lot of play time as it is within arm's reach. Buying cheaper mandolins and trying to make them play and sound good could get addicting.

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dhergert, 

Jeff Mando

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## MikeEdgerton

*US Army Camel Corp*

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dhergert

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## Folkmusician.com

As long as we are veering off in to Camels..  We have a bit of history here.  Apparently they were used for mining.

http://www.visitvirginiacitynv.com/e...mel-races.html

This event is the height of hilarity in Nevada. Imagine untrained camels, mounted by novice riders, running around a dirt ring to a soundtrack of banjos, harmonicas and wild laughter and cheering. The camel heats are interspersed with ostrich races and the occasional zebra race added for good measure.

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dhergert

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## dhergert

One of my most pleasant vacation memories is a trip from SoCal up 395 culminating with a visit to Virginia City.  We'll be repeating some of that trip this summer after enjoying a week at the Grass Valley festival and I'm really looking forward to it.

On-topic content: I could comfortably imagine playing my MK on a "trained" camel ride.  (Although some people might disparage the use of the term "trained" in this context.)

P.S. I guess there is a tune named "Camel Hump".  Saw a couple of YT references, at least two with mandolin.

 :Mandosmiley:

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Folkmusician.com

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## Verne Andru

> With one of the MK gifts we gave, the owner has truncated the fingerboard, changed the bridge to a custom made bridge, speed-necked the neck and polished the body to gloss.  He also gets this idea about freedom, and he loves this mandolin.  It does everything that he wants it to do and more.  This pro musician has traveled and played with Frank Wakefield, so he knows what a good mandolin sounds like, and he raves about his MK.


I've pondered what these would look like with a blonde treatment. Mine has some very nice looking wood underneath the finish.

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## Willie Poole

Robert<  Has anyone ever been able to train a zebra so it can be riden?   I often wondered if they could be crossed with a horse, 

    OH  WELL....Back to mandolin content....

    Willie

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## Verne Andru

Upon further fiddling I stand corrected on a prior point I made - it has a 2-way truss rod. I just wasn't turning enough first time around.

That is all - carry on...

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## Jeff Mando

The thread that simply refuses to die.............................. :Wink:

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## Br1ck

I admire those brave souls willing to strip off the industrial paint on these things. Just sanding a speed neck was an afternoon project. I just made an arm rest from mahogany for mine.

I really have come to like the tailpiece on these too. Still debating a Cumberland bridge. This has gotten way out of hand.

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MikeEdgerton

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## Frankdolin

So to add to this crazy thread... I am a closet MKF owner also. I bought mine several years back and had all the issues seen here. But with a little love and work she turned out better than I thought, since I was only look'n for something to strap on my bike. I can wail the heck out of this mandolin and she asks for more. Here's some "artsy" shots I took yesterday. :Mandosmiley: 
 Can't figure out how to rotate images...

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Jeff Mando

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## Br1ck

I can see the add copy now:

For sale, a fully intact decent if uninspiring mandolin project platform for you tinkerers out in mando world. All you need to realize your dream of adiquacy, right here in the form of a shiny, well not so shiny, MK. Just add a couple of hundred dollars worth of specialty files, and twenty hour's worth of gloriously fun and rewarding labor, and you too can be a part of this exclusive cult. Worried about the outcome? Don't be. You will have so much of your psyche invested, you'll swear you have a mando rivaling an Ellis, or at the very least, a Kentucky master series. Don't delay, act now.

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## jhowell

As the proud owner of a MK solid A with about $300 of shop time into it, even if I were a shop, I'm three beats and a half tone behind ya!   :Whistling:

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## mandolinstew

I just sold mine,now waiting for my Kentucky 606

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## dhergert

Out of respect for the dead (thread, that is), I've been trying to stay away from here.  But I have to say my MK has inspired me by how comfortably it plays...  

I just recently had my 2002 F-9 refretted with banjo-width Evo-gold frets, the neck's V-profile gently "reduced", the neck speed-necked and French-polished, and basically had the instrument given a pro-setup.  (This was all expertly done for me two weeks ago by builder Austin Clark while he was working in the Luthier's Barn at the Grass Valley Father's Day Bluegrass Festival.)  

I have really liked how the MK's wider frets and round neck profile feel, so that got me thinking about the F-9.  The F-9's original thin frets were in pretty bad shape and very difficult to play clearly, so I needed them changed and wanted wider frets in either Evo-gold or SS.  The speed neck and French polish was because I had worn most of the color off the back of the F-9's neck anyway, plus, I wanted the F-9's stock V-profile reduced so my left thumb would feel better.

I had actually been considered replacing the F-9 with something else that would already have these improvements, but this opportunity came up with Austin, where I was at the right place at the right time.  I'm extremely happy I went this direction, because I do really like the F-9.

So, here's another thing to thank the MK, and Mike Edgerton for!  

Once again, the beauty of these "$199.00 solid F style mandolin"s isn't in how little money they have cost us; it is in how much money they have saved us.

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## Br1ck

> Once again, the beauty of these "$199.00 solid F style mandolin"s isn't in how little money they have cost us; it is in how much money they have saved us.


Well, yes, if you don't count the fret files, nut files, fret crowning files, and nut blanks I bought. Then there was the immediate GAS for an F style of the same quality as my SA. So I figure in the end, the MK will have cost me a ton of cash.

Big fun though.

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## Verne Andru

I've been doing setup in spits and spurts and the better it gets dialed in, the better I like it. Still doesn't rival my PS, but it is a very nice playing and sounding mando.

I'm not finding setup to be any worse than other instruments I've received from MF or other big box places. It is as it came from the factory and is setup to be playable with good tone. But, as most of you will probably attest, the action is a bit high for serious playing, which is where the setup comes in.

The only "special" tools I've purchased to work on my instruments over the years have been a "wide/medium" fret crowning file (about $40 IIRC) and a set of needle files ($12). Everything else is normal stuff any home handy-person would have about.

I did a string change and find the tailpiece to be quite functional and works well if you start stringing from the "inside" and move to the outer strings.

I did find a bit of an odd situation with the D'Addario EJ62s I put on. First time getting them up to tune was fine, but I had to slacken them off to scrape the frets a bit more and when I went to tune back to pitch both E strings started "slipping." Upon investigation both of them were slipping at the loop end - in other words, the loops were unlooping. I was able to get some solder on the windings before they came completely unwound, so all is good, just a heads-up to be careful as the set I got doesn't seem to be wound as well as they used to be.

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## dhergert

I also had that experience on the MK tailpieces with the "E" strings -- actually in my case, this would be the "first course" of strings, since I'm using non-standard tuning (with custom .015 gauge non-wound 1st and 2nd strings tuned to G).  

I found that I had to hook the 1st and 2nd strings around their normal posts and loop them over the 5th and 6th posts in order to keep them from slipping -- sort of like with the old Gibson style stamped tailpieces and the "extra" hooks that aren't really "extra".

While I'd like to see the D'A string loops wound more tightly and I've seen non-MK related complaints online about this issue, I have to at least partially blame this slipping on the very thin posts in the MK tailpiece.  They probably encourage this kind of behavior.  

That said, in general I do like the MK tailpiece and I tend to attribute some of these instruments' volume and tone quality to the heavy build of these tailpieces.  That's speculation on my part, but somewhat believable after swapping more banjo tailpieces than I care to count over the last 45 years.

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## Mike Stewart

> I just sold mine,now waiting for my Kentucky 606


Im waiting for the 606 to show up before I sell (if I sell; Ive grown fond of the lil guy). Speaking of which, I posted in the appropriate thread, asking if anyone got one from Elderly yet. They had at least *one*, right?

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## farmerjones

I've haven't done anything much but pull the strings into pitch and play it. I may have tried to knock the finish down a bit. I do understand the deal with the frets. I may knock the burs down, but I may not. Showing too much ambition on my part could knock me down in musician status.  :Smile:

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## Verne Andru

On the D'Addario strings - not sure I could fault the MK tailpiece for that. It just appears to be poor string winding from what I can see.

I would add that the MK tailpiece seems to pretty much eliminate the overtones and errand string sounds I've had on others, so it has had some thought put into its design that seems to be working.

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## mandolinstew

> I've haven't done anything much but pull the strings into pitch and play it. I may have tried to knock the finish down a bit. I do understand the deal with the frets. I may knock the burs down, but I may not. Showing too much ambition on my part could knock me down in musician status.


how do you knock down the finish?

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## farmerjones

> how do you knock down the finish?


With the use of abrasives, like steel wool, scotch-brites or sand or garnet paper. I think I used a scotch-brite, then a coat of tung oil. But the finish is deceptively thick. At the end of the day, it really didn't look like I did hardly anything. Although it was smoother/softer, to the touch, yet it still didn't reflect light.

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## Br1ck

The finish is insanely hard to remove. You might be able to remove it with some industrial stripper, but who knows.

The intriguing issue to me with this whole obsession, for that is what it has become for me, is that I wonder how many mandolins out there sitting unplayed in closets could be made into servisable or even pleasurable instruments. Underneath what was an uninspiring and very hard to play instrument is everything one needs. Over time and a lot of playing, it's even sounding better as it opens up. I no doubt will get a CA bridge, and perhaps a tone guard.

It has certainly provided me with a lot of entertainment. I am sanding the neck bit by bit to get more of a vee. I think I'm about there.
How would I feel to have payed full price for one? Not great.

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## Verne Andru

Speaking of price, purchasers should be happy to know their $199 investment has increased significantly according to Guitar Center's used listing at $354.99:

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/Mic...n-113370344.gc

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dhergert

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## Br1ck

Oh goody, I might be at the break even point. Tools bought, etc.

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## Mike Stewart

> Speaking of price, purchasers should be happy to know their $199 investment has increased significantly according to Guitar Center's used listing at $354.99:


I just knew it was a solid investment. At that rate of return, think how much it will be worth in ten years! They're not making any more of them, folks!

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## dhergert

In September it will be a year.  I'm guessing we probably will see them for re-sale at $400 by then.  2x is ($400) is still a good value/price balance for these MK mandolins, keeping up with the new low end KM-606 price-wise but with a fancier and perhaps less rough visual impression.  

I'll be very surprised if the re-sold MKLFSTB models ever become collectable, or even if they climb to higher prices than brand new low-end solid F style mandolins from other makers, but anything is possible.  I still believe their real value is in how much money they save a person; it's definately been that way for me.

I think the original list price of the MKLFSTB was somewhere around $850, but that might have included a case.  Does anyone have that old data?

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## Br1ck

I was initially disappointed, sort of a well, what did you expect for that kind of money? It sounded just like another import, and probably not as good as most Eastmans and Kentuckys, and it played like barbed wire. But I bought it to butcher, or "fix" so it was still a decent value. Heck, I've gotten an education. That I ended up with a very serviceable beater that gets half my play time I find pretty astounding. It has mellowed a bit with time and playing hours, and between working on it and playing it has been a huge bang for buck entertainment purchase.

I have to wonder how many are sitting in closets unplayed, as I wouldn't play a stock one for long.

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## Mike Stewart

> I have to wonder how many are sitting in closets unplayed, as I wouldn't play a stock one for long.


After taking it out of the box, I strummed two chords and thought to myself, "forget the file, I'm going to need an angle grinder if I'm going to grind that nut to height in a reasonable amount of time." I can't imagine someone who has never played trying to learn on it with any success out-of-the-box.

I figured I'd sell it after the 606 shows up, but it's turned into such a "good enough" mandolin I think I'll keep it around as a backup beater to the 606, or a loaner I don't have to worry about, or whatever. The value vs. price-paid ratio is high enough, and what-I'd-get-out-of-it-if-I-sold-it vs. value low enough, might as well keep it around. They don't take much space, and don't eat much except a $5 set of strings once in a while, and my wife oddly kind of likes the l'il feller.

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## Verne Andru

So in the spirit of "cheapness" inspired by this deal I splurged $2.50 (plus tax) for a new strap.

I remember reading some genius (who I can't remember) on this forum offer the advise of using a dog leash for a strap. That set me on a quest and yesterday I finally happened upon a nylon dog leash with a padded handle at my local dollar store. It looks something like this:



With my trusty exacto-blade I cut away some of the padding in the handle so it wraps nicely around the scroll. Cut off the hook-thing at the other end, cut a slit for the endpin and voila, as nice a mando strap as you could want at a price in keeping with the mandolin it adorns.

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farmerjones

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## imoir

Seriously considering a bone nut and CA bridge for this......

Anyone done it yet?

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## Verne Andru

Not sure I'd bother changing the nut or the bridge. Bone nut only adds a tiny bit of chime on open strings and the stock bridge is fine once it's fitted properly to the top. You may be seeing a 1 to 2% improvement for the investment, if that.

OTOH I can see a McClung armrest. That takes the arm off the top allowing for much better volume and projection plus I find an armrest more comfortable, but otherwise it's quite a fine instrument as is to me.

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## dhergert

My impression of the ABS nut is that it's harder than some bone that I've worked with.  More brittle too.  That's unscientific, yes, but the files just don't dig into it like some bone nuts I've worked.

And I'd agree with Verne about the bridge at least for the 4 MKLFSTBs that I've dealt with...  Although I've heard from at least one person who did have a faulty (broken) bridge upon arrival.  On mine, the bridges seems to be well made, with perhaps some rough edges that could be smoothed a bit but I've never bothered to do so.  The most important point is to make sure it is seated properly.

I've fitted my MK with a CA armrest, ToneGard and a pickguard in an effort to protect vibrations.  I'm also using DA EFT74 strings.  I've been pretty happy with the results.  Very hard to beat that $199 price tag.

My MK even had an influence on some work I decided to have done on my F-9.  I like the wider frets.

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## Br1ck

I made an armrest from a piece of 1x2 mahogany I had laying around. Went to a violin shop and got some viola chin rest hardware. Net cost, $5. 

I've gone back and forth with the CA bridge idea. Concluded a Tone Guard would be money better spent.

It's kind of funny that my SilverAngel came with a very nice strap far more suited to an F style, so my MK sports a $60 strap.

I like the results I got from a bone nut, but would not pay someone to make one. At this point I think I would be happy with anything I do to it, such is the attachment.

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## Verne Andru

I think it needs saying that this 'Festival' mandolin certainly lives up to its name.

All components on mine are pro-grade (far better than consumer-grade at the very least) and I would have no problem putting this through the rigors of a festival tour.

From what I see it's designed to be a working-musicians instrument and everything from the woods to the tuning machines, bridge, frets and even the tailpiece are made to go the distance. Even the matte finish should stand up much better to rough and tumble road use than the more expensive glossy versions.

Heck of a deal.

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## pheffernan

> OTOH I can see a McClung armrest. That takes the arm off the top allowing for much better volume and projection plus I find an armrest more comfortable, but otherwise it's quite a fine instrument as is to me.





> I've gone back and forth with the CA bridge idea. Concluded a Tone Guard would be money better spent.


The added value of an armrest or a ToneGard is that they are not forever married to just the one instrument.

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## Br1ck

> The added value of an armrest or a ToneGard is that they are not forever married to just the one instrument.


Yes, but you want one for every instrument you own.

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## dhergert

That was true in my case.  I tried to get used to playing without, but after a few weeks I knew pretty well I wanted an armrest, ToneGard and pickguard on my MK so it would feel as much as possible like my F-9.

Interestingly, now my F-9 also has wide frets and a more rounded neck profile like my MK.

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## Jeff Mando

> Interestingly, now my F-9 also has wide frets and a more rounded neck profile like my MK.


Gibson would do well to take suggestions from Michael Kelly........ :Cool:

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## pheffernan

> Yes, but you want one for every instrument you own.


Yes, but not for every instrument you sell.  :Grin:

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## dhergert

> Gibson would do well to take suggestions from Michael Kelly........


I'm pretty sure we have a few new Gibson factory-original F-9 owners here who have wide frets and a radiused fingerboard.  In other words, these things are available from the factory if ordered.  The D profile neck may also be available to order.

I do agree with the sentiment though.  I think a lot of lessons can be learned from the $199 MKs that have been purchased.  And I think a few builders _have_ taken notice (ie: KM-606).

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## dhergert

Interesting add in the Cafe' classifieds.  Testing the water?  Probably a very decent deal since it includes the Elderly setup, a hard case and some nice extras (NFI).

On a pragmatic note, I just got back from the Summergrass festival in Vista, California.  Arrived after sunset on Wednesday evening, wanted to jam but didn't trust my footing in the camping area in the dark, so didn't want to get my F-9 out.  Got out the MK and had a great time.  Sounded great, played comfortably.  It is serving its purpose.

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## Br1ck

I would not feel uncomfortable selling mine for that price, considering the extensive work done, and it's rather decent tone and playability when compared to the lower end of the Eastman and Kentucky line. Doubt I will because my recent campsite misfortune has reinforced the need for a beater.

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## farmerjones

Setting the market, eh? I can't seem to find a case (I want) for less than a hundo delivered. 

Well, seeing how I've already given mine a floridectomy, and of course I'd sell it signed. . . . . .
If they want mine unsigned, it's going to cost an extra hundred.   :Laughing:  

On second thought, no. I'm not selling mine. I'm going to help create scarcity.  :Smile: 

You're Welcome!

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## Frankdolin

One modification I did and haven't seen here is remove the tail piece and bend it so the strings come through the center of the tail going to the bridge with out touching top or bottom. I attach the strings to the very bottom of those posts, don't trust them, and they have a nice clear shot to the bridge with out buzzing or getting out right bent into position the way it was originally.Unrelated, my bridge is also now completely down on itself with no adjustment left, poor mans' solid bridge, and it sound great!

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farmerjones

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## Verne Andru

I believe part of the design of the tailpiece requires the strings rest against the top as they exit to reduce sympathetic vibrations. It's actually a very smart part of the design IMHO. By changing the angle of the strings so they come straight out you may be creating problems where they they didn't originally occur as it defeats a design feature.

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## Frankdolin

I understand your point Verne. But to me it makes no sense to have string pressure pulling up as well as back on the tailpiece from where the strings attach. So I'll stay with my set-up.

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## Verne Andru

> But to me it makes no sense to have string pressure pulling up as well as back on the tailpiece from where the strings attach.


That tailpiece is designed [from what I see and summize] to provide a clean string break-angle at the tailpiece exit point similar to the clean break-angles you get at the bridge and peghead. This helps ensure there are as few possible points where the strings are inadvertently vibrating against things they shouldn't and the tensions, string lengths, etc. remain stable.

I have no doubt the way you've modified your tailpiece will work as well/bad as any of the other tailpieces out there, just seems a pity to defeat what I consider one of cleverer design aspects of the piece.

Whoever designed that tailpiece put a great deal of time into thinking through the issues and deserves a gold star in my books.

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## dhergert

This is the newer generation MK tailpiece, the previous version was the light stamped sheet metal tailpiece similar to the traditional Gibson tailpiece...

There are a lot of good points about this newer version.  Personally I like the heavier weight, the very secure mount with the integral end-pin and the fact that this tailpiece can use either loop-end or ball-end strings.  

The designed break-angle is similar to a lot of longer banjo tailpieces which focus tension downward on the instrument's bridge and through the bridge to the sound board (the head, on a banjo), potentially producing quicker response and typically bassier lows.  Of course even in the banjo world tailpiece weight is an ongoing discussion; some people also believe that the lighter tailpieces allow better resonance.  I've got excellent sounding instruments with both light and heavy tailpiece approaches and because there are so many other setup variables involved I honestly can't say that the tailpiece is the only thing that makes a difference.

One thing I'm not too pleased with in the newer MK tailpiece is the way the unwound loop-end strings tend to have their loop windings slip and even come loose due to the thinness and slickness of the posts that the string loops go around.  I've seen this consistently with two different brands of strings and as such have devised ways to wind the strings around other strings' posts in order to keep the windings from coming loose.  This does work, but it's messy and extra work especially if other strings ever need to be replaced.  To be fair, it would be nice if the loop windings were made by the string manufacturers to not slip but it would probably require soldering which may not be price effective...  Unfortunately this slippage is so consistent that I've come to expect it now.  I've even had to hand re-tie strings a few times.

Like with banjos, I'm sure that mandolin tailpiece designs and weight variations do impact tone, but how much, and sympathizing with what other setup variables, are all details that are very much up for debate.

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## Verne Andru

> One thing I'm not too pleased with in the newer MK tailpiece is the way the unwound loop-end strings tend to have their loop windings slip and even come loose due to the thinness and slickness of the posts that the string loops go around.  I've seen this consistently with two different brands of strings and as such have devised ways to wind the strings around other strings' posts in order to keep the windings from coming loose.


I'm at a loss as to how the tailpiece can be responsible for poorly wound strings coming unwound. Theories?

A little dab of solder on the windings holds everything tight. Some roadies do this to every string every time they change strings, which is usually before every show. This speaks to the issue that strings unwinding is a common enough a problem on a range of instruments/bridges that mitigating the issue is common practice among the professional crowd.

IMHO it's the strings, not the tailpiece.

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## dhergert

I'm not unsympathetic to that point...  Note, quoting myself:
<<  To be fair, it would be nice if the loop windings were made by the string manufacturers to not slip but it would probably require soldering which may not be price effective... >>

That said, I've used ball-end strings on this tailpiece, settling them over the existing string posts, and they do not slip off of the ball ends at all.  So there is something about the width of the existing string posts, and possibly also something about the straight line of the string, and maybe even about the plating that might make them more slippery.

I do agree about soldering the strings...  But, this doesn't happen with the old traditional stamped Gibson style tailpieces if the strings are positioned properly.  That extra bend creates enough friction that the loop windings don't slip.

Much to do about not very much though.  I do like these newer MK tailpieces.

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## Br1ck

I've never had this problem with my MK. To me the tailpiece may well be the best thing about this instrument.

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## Cornfield

I have an opportunity to buy one of these. This will be my first mandolin. I've been playing tenor guitar and banjo in 5ths tuning lately and wonder about picking up the mando. 
I've played ukulele and guitar for 10 years. 
Is the mando mostly for playing in ensemble? I usually play and sing.
Two questions: is this a good first mandolin & is it good for solo playing?

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## Hudmister

> Is the mando mostly for playing in ensemble? I usually play and sing.
> Two questions: is this a good first mandolin & is it good for solo playing?


The mandolin is not mostly for playing in ensemble in my world, it makes a great solo instrument and many people specialize in that.   The mandolin you are considering is an adequate first mandolin with a good set up and it is better than a lot of the mandolins people have started out on.  Just save your money for the next one  because as you get better you'll want more.  As for playing and singing, the mandolin and you is all you need. It challenges you as a singer because you have to bring more to the song with your voice than singing with a guitar.

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## Br1ck

After a fret level and a setup, they are a servisable mandolin perfectly suited to a beginner on a budget. They are bright, and to temper this I've been using GHS silk and steel strings. Mine has gotten better over time but will never be mistaken for a small shop made mandolin.

I'd say mine easily compares to the lower end Eastman and Kentuckys I continue to try out in stores. The playability improved dramatically once the frets were leveled out, and the sound improved when the bridge fit was right. I'd pay 199 for one and sink another hundred into a good setup and feel I'd gotten a deal. Someone listed one recently that had been setup at $300 and that would work for me too.

So, yes, it would be fine.

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## dhergert

It's been about 3 1/2 years since this thread opened with a bang...

I pulled my MK out today, mostly just to look it over and make sure it's doing ok.  It had been between 6 and 9 months since I had played it.  My F-9 is my go-to instrument lately, especially as I'm learning to deal with some RA issues with my hands.

Since late September 2016 I've made a number of changes to my F-9, mostly inspired by my MK.  I've had it professionally re-fretted (Gold Evo banjo-width frets) and I've had the neck re-profiled and speed-necked, and the nut replaced with a complete pro setup.  Most recently I've replaced the tailpiece with a James tailpiece.  It's a pretty nice instrument now and a big part of that is because my MK showed me what to expect...

Having been setup nearly exactly the same as my F-9, the MK showed me what my F-9 should feel like.  It also showed me the kind of volume I should be getting out of my F-9.  The F-9 still has a complex, dark tone with great clarity that the MK cannot emulate, but the MK was louder.  The MK has been pretty respectable from the beginning like that, and really not just because of it's $200 price.  The tone is bright and I'm guessing that by now it probably always will be, but the brightness is controllable based on touch.  And the MK has tremendous sustain and bass response.  Basically it's a very solid, loud, nice sounding instrument.

Today with both instruments out to compare, probably because my hands are so sensitive, my first comment to my wife as I played the MK was "it plays easier!".  And it does.  The MK has a wider neck and wider nut than my F-9, and it's just more comfortable to play.  But the F-9 with the V-to-C re-profile, speed-neck and still-like-new fretwork is pretty comfortable now and it feels like a faster neck than the MK's.  The F-9's neck will never be wider though, although I could probably put a nut with the strings spread more widely on it; an option I'll probably not worry about at least for now.

The MK had been louder than my F-9, until I put the James tailpiece on it.  Today I observed this again, something about the James tailpiece design, material and/or geometry has improved volume a lot, this with the same strings and setup.  With the same playing technique, the F-9 is a little louder and significantly clearer, so I'm very pleased with that.

As things sit, I expect to keep both instruments, lifers...  The F-9 will probably always be the instrument I want to be playing, but the MK is a terrific backup for it, and if I close my eyes and work on touch a little, I can get it to sound close enough that I can enjoy it just about as much.

I'm still very appreciative for Mike for bringing this up!!! Thanks Mike!

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farmerjones, 

MikeEdgerton, 

OldSausage

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## Br1ck

I sure enjoyed mine while I had it, but can’t say I miss it. It started someone else on the path. But since I built my Arches kit, I’d rarely played it. My Arches is bright, but with way more tone, louder by a great deal, and my attachment is strong. When I upgrade, or sidegrade more likely, it will be to something between my Arches and my Silverangel’s voicing.

But set up, they are definitely in the Eastman/Kentucky ballpark. It is probably a crime most of them don’t get the considerable work they need.

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dhergert

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## MikeEdgerton

This was just one of those happy accidents. I thought it was a one off that they had, then it appeared to be four or five. It ended up being a lot more. The one I bought and gave as a gift is being well used. Probably one of the better entry level mandolin buys I've seen, comparable to the Fullerton Gloucester run of a few years back. I had one of those and should have hung onto it. No, it's not a custom built high end mandolin but they were value for the money paid excellent.

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dhergert, 

farmerjones

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