# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Why do L&H Model A, B, & C owners use TI mittels and not starks?

## Tim Logan

I am curious about this. The gauges are extremely close. Does a slight increase in guage have a disproportionate increase in tension that would be too much for the instruments? Thank you.

Here are the guages:

Thomastik mittels:
.010  015  .021  .033

Thomastik stark;
.011  .016  .022  .034

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## Tim Logan

I am going to add some additional info from this old thread. This statement by luthier Paul Hostetter surprised me:

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...tage-mandolins

Gibsons and L&H's came from the factory with the equivalent of J-74s on them. Back then there were no real choices in gauges, that's what strings were available, and your only choices were steel wrap or bronze wrap. The Gibsons and L&H's (13-7/8" and 13" scales respectively) were engineered for those gauges. I see no point to using lighter strings on them just because it's 80 years later.

I was very surprised to read this because I always had the impression that putting something with greater tension than the TIs would damage an L&H arch top. So Im a bit confused. Perhaps someone can chime in and enlighten me? Thank you!

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## rcc56

I do not necessarily agree with Mr. Hostetter's statement about only one choice of string gauge being available in the old days.

I have strung L & H's with D'addario or GHS 10 1/2 -14 -24 -38 for long periods of time with no consequences.  I generally do not go more than a fraction heavier on any pre-war carved mandolins.

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## Tim Logan

> I do not necessarily agree with Mr. Hostetter's statement about only one choice of string gauge being available in the old days.
> 
> I have strung L & H's with D'addario or GHS 10 1/2 -14 -24 -38 for long periods of time with no consequences.  I generally do not go more than a fraction heavier on any pre-war carved mandolins.


Thank you. Do you not go beyond the 10 1/2 -14 -24 -38 gauge because experience has taught you it is hazardous to an L&H? The TI starks E and A string are heavier than the gauges you set as your maximum. I wonder if this is honing in on the reason folks seem to favor TI mittels over starks? I can find no reference on the Cafe to anyone using starks by the way. As my original post says, the gauges seem remarkably close - and I wonder if that small of a gauge difference can mean a very large change in string tension?

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## BradKlein

An aside: Lyon & Healy made mandolins in both 13 7/8" and 13" scale lengths.

I don't think you can generalize broadly about the correct string gauge for either maker. Instruments vary over the history of both. Although in general both are pretty robust instruments in my experience.

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## Martin Jonas

> I am curious about this. The gauges are extremely close. Does a slight increase in guage have a disproportionate increase in tension that would be too much for the instruments? Thank you.
> 
> Here are the guages:
> 
> Thomastik mittels:
> .010  015  .021  .033
> 
> Thomastik stark;
> .011  .016  .022  .034


Hi Tim,

I don't know where those gauges come from as TI don't print them on the packs.  However, they do list string tensions at their official website:

https://www.thomastik-infeld.com/en/...dolin/mandolin

The difference in rated tension is pretty significant between the mittel and the starks.  Flatwound strings can be tricky to compare as the gauge to string tension conversion is quite different compared to roundwounds.

Martin

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Tim Logan

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## Tim Logan

> Hi Tim,
> 
> I don't know where those gauges come from as TI don't print them on the packs.  However, they do list string tensions at their official website:
> 
> https://www.thomastik-infeld.com/en/...dolin/mandolin
> 
> The difference in rated tension is pretty significant between the mittel and the starks.  Flatwound strings can be tricky to compare as the gauge to string tension conversion is quite different compared to roundwounds.
> 
> Martin


Ahhhhh.....the gauges come from StringsByMail. Here is a recap with tensions:

Thomastik mittels:
.010  015  .021  .033
16.1,  14.8,  14.3, 13.2 (pounds)

Thomastik stark;
.011  .016  .022  .034
17.4,  15.4,  15.4, 15.4

The G string for example is almost a 17% increase in tension!! So I guess the remaining question is whether that is too much tension or do players just not like the sound of the starks????

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## rcc56

> Thank you. Do you not go beyond the 10 1/2 -14 -24 -38 gauge because experience has taught you it is hazardous to an L&H? The TI starks E and A string are heavier than the gauges you set as your maximum. I wonder if this is honing in on the reason folks seem to favor TI mittels over starks? I can find no reference on the Cafe to anyone using starks by the way. As my original post says, the gauges seem remarkably close - and I wonder if that small of a gauge difference can mean a very large change in string tension?


I have no experience with Thomastik strings.  _If_ the tension figures that other Cafe members have cited are accurate,  their unwound strings have a slightly lower tension than the US made strings of the same diameter.  Based on those figures, an L & H should be able to handle either Thomastik set.

When I choose strings, I take into several things into account:  tone, feel, what I think is reasonable tension for a particular instrument to handle, and experience with how a particular instrument responds to a choice of gauge or alloy.

Lyon & Healy's tend to be built a little bit lighter than Gibson oval instruments.  I know from experience as a player and owner that they respond well to the US strings I cited above.

I know from experience as a repairman that some old Gibson oval hole instruments can handle just a little bit more, but tend to develop problems when strung much heavier.  For old Gibsons, the absolute maximum I recommend is 11-15-25-40, and that's pushing it on some instruments.  Remember, every instrument is different, and some can handle more than others, even if they were built in the same month.

For some reason, people seem more inclined to put heavier strings on Gibson mandolins than they do on those made by Lyon and Healy.

Some will argue with me about what these old mandolins can handle.  They don't have to look a shocked customer in the eye when I tell them what the cost will be to fix a mandolin that's suffered a badly warped neck or a sunken top from being overstrung; especially when somebody on a forum told them the instrument could handle a heavy string.

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Tim Logan

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## JeffD

I use the Thomastic mittels, mostly because that is what the fellow I bought it from strongly recommended. I have not tried the stark.

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Tim Logan

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## Tim Logan

rcc56: Thank you for a very informative post. I think your observation that every instrument is different even if made in the same month is worth keeping in mind. A quick first search has not shown me the tension on the strings you mentioned in your earlier post - bit I will find it (curiosity), I’m sure. Thanks again for the input.

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## Tim Logan

EVERYBODY,  I ERRED ABOVE: the string gauges were from Just Strings AND I picked up incorrect tension data columns from the TI site earlier. Sorry! Here is the correct info. Tension figures are straight from:

https://www.thomastik-infeld.com/en/...dolin/mandolin

Thomastik mittels:
.010 015 .021 .033
17.4  15.4   15.4  15.4 (pounds)

Thomastik stark;
.011 .016 .022 .034
21.8  18.7  17.6  17.6 (pounds)

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## Tim Logan

Although I do love the TI mittels, I cannot but help wanting to experiment with different strings on my L&H model A. However, I do not want to put an inappropriately high tension string on it. Just to be a bit neurotic, I’m going to ask this: it sounds like, from the comments above, that Dogal R92 (medium) .010. .015  .025  .037 strings would not be a problem. However, I do not know the tension and understand that their core material may contribute to the tension being disproportionately higher than the guage increase. Does anyone know for sure if the R92’s would be “safe” on the L&H? As always, thank you.

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## Tim Logan

Recently I took the TI's off my LH and strung it with GHS A250's. I like them better than the TI's MUCH to my surprise!

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## mandobassman

> The difference in rated tension is pretty significant between the mittel and the starks.  Flatwound strings can be tricky to compare as the gauge to string tension conversion is quite different compared to roundwounds.
> 
> Martin


Lots of people often make this mistake is comparing flatwounds to roundwounds. When comparing in just gauge, it's not apples to apples. Comparison must be made in tension. TI Starks are actually lighter in overall tension than D'Addario J-74 mediums. 

Also, I disagree with people's assessment that pre-war instruments need to be played with lighter strings. That may be true for many bowlbacks, but carved top mandolins are built to handle the tension. I had a 1924 Gibson A Snakehead for 20 years and it was always strung up with GHS Silk and Steel mediums. There are tons of '20s and '30s F2s and F4s with J-74's on them and they hold up just fine. I can't see where the L&H mandolins would be any different. In my opinion, the Thomastik Starks would be considered on the lighter side. No need for Mittels, unless you preferred the tone.

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Tim Logan

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## mandobassman

> Thomastik stark;
> .011 .016 .022 .034
> 21.8  18.7  17.6  17.6 (pounds)


The tension of the D'Addario J-74's are;

E-23.2    A-19.2    D-23.3     G-25.1


The total tension of the Thomastik starks is 75.7 pounds.  The total tension of the D'Addario J-74 medium is 90.8 pounds. So, as you can see, the TI Heavy gauge is 15 pounds lighter than the J-74 medium guage. You can't compare just string gauge. There is no reason you can't use TI Starks on a L&H.

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Tim Logan

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## Tim Logan

> The tension of the D'Addario J-74's are;
> 
> E-23.2    A-19.2    D-23.3     G-25.1
> 
> 
> The total tension of the Thomastik starks is 75.7 pounds.  The total tension of the D'Addario J-74 medium is 90.8 pounds. So, as you can see, the TI Heavy gauge is 15 pounds lighter than the J-74 medium guage. You can't compare just string gauge. There is no reason you can't use TI Starks on a L&H.


Thank you. What I would really like to hear is the Dogal Calace mediums (10 15 25 37) but I don't trust myself using Graham McDonald's string tension calculator.

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## Jim Garber

It is very funny: the only mandolin on which I refer Thomastiks is my Washburn/L&H Professional. And I have liked them on mandolins that were specifically voiced for those strings like Phoenix Neo-Classical or German bowlbacks or flatbacks (Woll, Seifert and the like). I believe that JeffD uses them on his National RM-1 and I might try them on that since it has volume to spare and can use some taming. That tailpiece though is a real pain to change strings.

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## Tim Logan

> It is very funny: the only mandolin on which I refer Thomastiks is my Washburn/L&H Professional. And I have liked them on mandolins that were specifically voiced for those strings like Phoenix Neo-Classical or German bowlbacks or flatbacks (Woll, Seifert and the like). I believe that JeffD uses them on his National RM-1 and I might try them on that since it has volume to spare and can use some taming. That tailpiece though is a real pain to change strings.


I felt the same with my L&H and Phoenix as well. Lately though my tastes seem to be changing. I like the GHS A-250 e-string, for example, much better than the TI. However, that  doesn't really make sense to me because I think the e-strings are pretty much identical. It must be the effect of the overall tension change on the mandolin when changing to a different thickness for the lower strings and a different winding.  There's also always the chance that I am "BS'ing"myself - kind of like the way people may talk about bottles of wine LOL! But I don't think so.

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## Jim Garber

What is “AWS” and do they make a separate e-string?

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## Tim Logan

GHS A-250: typo

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## Jim Garber

Maybe you have something there—violinists often use one brand of strings for the lower three and a different one for the e-string. I stared using a Kaplan Non-Whistling e on my fiddle with Thomastik Vision strings for the others. Why not do that for a mandolin? Nothing wrong with experimenting.

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## bstanish

I believe Caterina Lichtenberg uses Thomastiks and Hannabach e strings on her setup.  Trekel used to sell this as a package at one time. So there is some precedence for mixed string the way violinists are known to do.

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## JeffD

> I believe that JeffD uses them on his National RM-1 and I might try them on that since it has volume to spare and can use some taming. That tailpiece though is a real pain to change strings.


I did for a while, on someone's advice. I thought they changed the tone of the RM-1 too much though, so I went back to the John Pearse strings.

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## Jim Garber

> I did for a while, on someone's advice. I thought they changed the tone of the RM-1 too much though, so I went back to the John Pearse strings.


I changed the original mediums to Elixir lights on that mandolin. Maybe I will try my usual NBs though if and when I change the strings.

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## Tim Logan

I finally made the move to Dogal Calace R92 mediums for my L&H. I wish I had done it sooner. Over time I have grown less enamored with TI's on the L&H. The R92's sound remarkable and for my current tastes are absolute perfect for this mandolin. Great, great sound.

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