# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  Cello in bluegrass?

## etteM

So, i´m trying to scrape together a stringband among my motley crew of electronica- head buckaroos and have just about cured one of them with a  nice big injection of O.C.M.S and Del McCoury :Smile:  .. And as it turns out he was once a decent string instrument player.. Its just a crying shame he plays the Cello. :Mad: 

So, i youtubed it, and there are some videos out there featuring Bluegrass, like the one below




From the youtube- selection it seems to me that cello works on some more "melancholic" songs but kind of disappears in a stringband playing more up - beat pickin´bluegrass stuff?

My friend told me that The Cello is the instrument closest to the vocal register of the human voice, so i thought that in bluegrass it can kind of just follow the melody line and do the.. eh.. bluegrass- type 2. voice if you know what i mean :Smile: ??


so, is there any use for a cellist in a stringband and how would you arrange that?   :Smile:

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## tstackhouse

Check out Daryl Anger and the Republic of Strings; Purists might howl but
the only limitation is your imagination.

                                                                    Tom

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## mandozilla

A CELLO! Why, that ain't no part of nothin'!  :Grin: 

 :Coffee:  :Mandosmiley:

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## tstackhouse

Sorry, that's Darol Anger and the American Fiddle Ensemble on the album
entitled "Republic of Strings". Check out, in particular, 'Old Dangerfield'.

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## Larry S Sherman

I'm not arguing that it's traditional, but I really like Crooked Still



Larry

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## Steve Ostrander

Let's see, Bill said, (quote) "Well, real hot licks with a fiddle don't need to be in it; you don't need drums in it, you don't need Dobro in it, and, uh, a hot gi-tar, you don't need that in it."

Nope, nothing about cello there...

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## Steve Ostrander

Larry, I really like that Crooked Still band.  That's some real hot licks on the cello, right there! And a boatload of monitors--there's some feedback waiting to happen...

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## mandopete

> I'm not arguing that it's traditional, but I really like Crooked Still


Sure, that's traditional, almost all bluegrass banjo players wear a head-band!

<grins>

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## tstackhouse

That's not a headband, they tried to tie his hands and it slipped...

 (Actually, Crooked Still is another good example)

                                                 -tgs

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## loess

Can't find any footage of Nancy Blake bowing the cello, but here's a video of her plucking with Norman and James Bryan. Nancy does some lovely cello playing on the Rising Fawn String Ensemble's Live at McCabe's LP.



There's a fellow who busks downtown in Omaha that has a pickup on his cello and puts it through a delay pedal & a small amp. He's got a great ear and a keen sense of dynamics. I've never felt overpowered or drowned out while jamming with him. Sounds like your friend might know a bit about effects pedals and such; maybe y'all can work something up with his electronica background. Go for it!

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## Salmon Falls Strings

I love hearing a cello in bluegrass music, whether it's Crooked Still or Darol Angers Republic of Strings and Darols Monster String Quartet. Natalie Haas is the cellist in the Monster String Quartet and Tristan Clarridge (sp?) is the cellist for Crooked Still and also the Republic of Strings. Rushaad Eggleston used to play with Crooked Still and he is a madman on the cello. 
Try to youtube search Crooked Still performing Mountain Jumper at Greyfox a couple of years ago, its pretty impressive. I think that the cello can handle a couple different roles in bluegrass whether it acts as a bass and is plucked or bowed to play fiddle melodies. I enjoy it either way.

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## JeffD

Sounds great. I don't care what the IBGMA says.

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## Mike Bunting

> I love hearing a cello in bluegrass music, whether it's Crooked Still or Darol Angers Republic of Strings and Darols Monster String Quartet. Natalie Haas is the cellist in the Monster String Quartet and Tristan Clarridge (sp?) is the cellist for Crooked Still and also the Republic of Strings. Rushaad Eggleston used to play with Crooked Still and he is a madman on the cello. 
> Try to youtube search Crooked Still performing Mountain Jumper at Greyfox a couple of years ago, its pretty impressive. I think that the cello can handle a couple different roles in bluegrass whether it acts as a bass and is plucked or bowed to play fiddle melodies. I enjoy it either way.


As great as those bands are, what makes you think it's bluegrass?

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## sgarrity

That clip of Norman and Nancy is just awesome music.  And Crooked Still playing a Monroe song....music to my ears.  I don't care what you want to label it but I call it GOOD music!
And that's from a traditional hardcore Monroe bluegrass fan.

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## Salmon Falls Strings

Well, I guess it's not really traditional bluegrass but it is definitely an off-shoot of bluegrass music. It's a topic that I believe has been discussed frequently as to what makes bluegrass music....well bluegrass. The way I look at it is that there are not too many bands out there playing straight Bill Monroe style bluegrass but we still call a lot of these bands bluegrass (Infamous Stringdusters, Yonder Mountain Stringband, etc). It's a tough call but I would definitely put a fair amount of Darol Anger and Crooked Stills music into a bluegrass category.

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## allenhopkins

I hear the Bluegrass Taliban cut off the headstock curls of three mandolin players just for _thinking_ about adding a 'cello to their bands.  And Crooked Still?  Haven't they learned about wearing the bluegrass burqua -- matching polyester suits, cowboy hats, and red string ties?  I sense a fatwa in the works!

Even _Bluegrass Unlimited_ came up with an "On The Edge" category a few years ago, for those musicians and recordings which didn't conform to the traditional boundaries.  Extended discussions about what is or isn't bluegrass are an invitation to wheel-spinning and didactic pomposity.  If it's good music, with strong roots in the genre, who cares if someone plays a 'cello -- which, by the way, was the bass voice in many a pre-bluegrass string band?

A few years ago, it was the electric bass; then piezo pickups on instruments; "Keith style" vs. "Scruggs style"; going outside of the "standards" for repertoire; J D Crowe's pedal steel player; and on and on.  Orthodoxy persists, but unorthodox musicians are the ones expanding the frontiers and continuing the music's development.  Remember when Monroe and Scruggs were unorthodox rebels?  (Well, neither do I -- before _my_ time, but they were innovative and revolutionary, and I'm sure the Taliban of that era didn't like them.)

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## Bob_Blackman

Spurred by a conversation with a fan of my folk music radio show who also plays (classical) cello, I recently spent a weekend searching for folk, stringband, and Celtic albums that include cello, and put together several sets for my show (which isn't archived, unfortunately).  

Some of the best-known cellists in those genres have already been mentioned, including Rushad Eggleston with Crooked Still (among other bands) and Nancy Blake, who adds lovely rich backing to Norman's guitar on many of their albums together.  In addition to his own bands, Rushad appears on many other people's albums, including Tim Stafford's [Blue Highway's guitarist] own CD "Endless Line," and a couple of albums by banjo player Ben Steed.

I was surprised to learn that Mike Seeger played cello -- I guess I shouldn't have been!  Although he rarely recorded with it, he plays it on one or two tracks of his album with Alice Gerrard, "Bowling Green," which was recently reissued on CD (and expanded with extra tracks) by 5-String Productions.  According to Matt Brown, Mike would sometimes pick up the cello during jam sessions in his home, to add instrumentation that didn't duplicate what the others were playing.

Though I didn't go through their albums checking for tracks, I understand that Matt Sexton, fiddle player with the bluegrass band Nothin' Fancy, also occasionally plays cello (and viola) with the band.

Peter Ostroushko has used several cellists on his albums of original music.  One of the more uptempo (and traditional) examples is the cello on "Virginia Reel from Hell" medley (with Peter playing fiddle on a medley of tunes) on his album "Heart of the Heartland."

Here in Michigan, Pooh Stevenson is both a fine mandolinist and cello player, and has played both with the local folk trio Lady of the Lake.

Going further from bluegrass (or even old-time stringband music), I should also mention Abby Newton's work accompanying folksingers like Jean Redpath and Priscilla Herdman, and Natalie Haas' extraordinary duets with Scottish fiddler Alasdair Fraser (on their CDs "In the Moment" and "Fire & Grace" -- truly empathic playing at the highest level!).

Most of those examples aren't bluegrass -- at least not anything like traditional bluegrass -- but musicians and listeners with eclectic taste would enjoy them all.

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## mandozilla

HMMPH!  :Mad: 

Call it Roots music, Americana music, or whatever but it ain't Bluegrass Music! Cello is no more a part of a Bluegrass ensemble than a washboard or spoons or a squeezebox...There's nothing wrong with stretching the genre out of shape to create a new one but please stop calling it Bluegrass music! Make up your own dang name for it puleeze!  :Grin: 

 :Coffee:  :Mandosmiley:

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## Salmon Falls Strings

Well, I think Allen sort of hinted at the idea behind this discussion, being that it is "on the edge" of bluegrass music. I am obviously not a die hard purist but love bluegrass music and its many offshoots. I have heard many a cafe member say that Sam Bush is their favorite bluegrass mandolin player, but if we look at it from a purists viewpoint he isn't a bluegrass player most of the time. He ventures into folk, country, newgrass styles on a regular basis but we still call him a bluegrass musician. I look at bluegrass kind of as the homebase for these other styles (such as Crooked Still) to grow and expand on, IMHO.

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## tree

> HMMPH! 
> 
> Call it Roots music, Americana music, or whatever but it ain't Bluegrass Music! Cello is no more a part of a Bluegrass ensemble than a washboard or spoons or a squeezebox...There's nothing wrong with stretching the genre out of shape to create a new one but please stop calling it Bluegrass music! Make up your own dang name for it puleeze!


But Monroe had an accordion player in the Blue Grass Boys . . .  she even takes a break on a song with Blue Grass in the title.  Seem like that ought to make a squeezebox into some part of sumpthin'.  I'm just sayin'.

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## allenhopkins

> But Monroe had an accordion player in the Blue Grass Boys . . .  she even takes a break on a song with Blue Grass in the title.  Seem like that ought to make a squeezebox into some part of sumpthin'.  I'm just sayin'.


And Monroe recorded with an organ player, an electric guitarist, even a xylophone player.  If Harold Bradley had dragged a cellist into one of those Decca sessions, Mullah M and the rest of the BG Taliban would be plugging a different orthodoxy.  It takes a special kind of semi-closed mind to convert fifty years of musical experimentation into a fossilized perspective of unchanging sameness.  IMHO, that's what's really "no part of nothin'."

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## Mike Bunting

I think that a cello would sound great in rootsy string music. I believe some oldtime stringbands were known to use it and Waylon Jennings used a cello on his '70's album, Honky Tonk Heroes (a collection of tunes by Billy Joe Shaver). I saw Alejandro Escovedo with a cello in his group and was killer so it's not a total rarity.
  I guess I started this "bluegrass" debate in my earlier post but I just wanted to know why some folks define music that may be derived from the earlier form of bluegrass but has transformed into something quite different, as it naturally would. Every time the question is raised, people tend to react as if I'm somehow putting down their favourite music, I'm not, I'm just interested in how people use words. These days use the language pretty loosely and I wonder how we can communicate when words seem to mean whatever a person wants it to mean.

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## mandopete

> Sounds great. I don't care what the IBGMA says.


What do they say?

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## AlanN

> And Monroe recorded with an organ player, an electric guitarist, even a xylophone player.


Which happened, I think, only at the behest of record company G-men looking for a modernized buck. Mullah M (love that) would likely have said 'No sir' to that line-up, 'twere it left up to him.

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## MikeEdgerton

Yo! Yo! Ma?

That ain't no part of nuthin.

I love the way cello's sound by the way.

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## AlanN

mmm...Cellas...

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## etteM

> Yo! Yo! Ma?
> 
> That ain't no part of nuthin.
> 
> I love the way cello's sound by the way.




aaah , yo yo ma is great for tango. and to me that seems like a good reason why the cello would be a little out of place at a hoedown :Smile:

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## Steve Roberts

Okay, it ain't bluegrass but one of the really hot old time bands in the 1970s was Plank Road String Band out of Lexington, VA.  Instead of bass they had Michael James Kott playing cello, and it was a great sound.  He played the cello like a guitar (with strap) and took Riley Puckett bass runs to new new levels.

Here is a link to a great recently reissued CD:

http://www.fieldrecorder.com/docs/notes/plankroad.htm


Michael James was a real piece of work, I vaguely recall one late night jam at Union Grove when a drunk staggered up and demanded that we play "that Orange Blossom Special."  Michael said "great!" and launched into a 10 minute cello solo that was, by any measure, amazing.  Finally the drunk realized what the rest of us knew and said "that ain't the Orange Blossom Special" and headed off to harrass some other jam session.  

When last I heard Michael was living in Santa Fe and playing new-age space music.  It is a real loss to old time string bands, he was an amazing musician.

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## allenhopkins

Another "revival" string band from the '70's that used 'cello was the Putnam String County Band: Jay Ungar, Lynn Ungar (at that time), John Cohen of NLCR fame, Abby Newton on 'cello.

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## Jimmie

If you look at photos of old string bands, you see a lot of cellos, which were often used to play the bass part and to provide a continuo.  There were loads of stringed instruments around, relics of the plantation orchestras, to be had cheaply.  (Much as with brass instruments left over from Civil War-era military bands, later shunted from pawn shops and the like into jazzmen's hands.)   And since bluegrass evolved from those very string bands....

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## dburtnett

While not straight ahead bluegrass by any means, Crooked Still uses cello like nobody else.. it really provides the chop and the drive. 

See em here: http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...deoid=49247912

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## dburtnett

Oops. Didn't notice page 1 of this thread...

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## mandopete

Okay, all kidding aside, I really love the cello.  What is truly fantastic about the notion of a cello in bluegrass is that it could operate as both a bass and fiddle.

Now I went out to UToob to try to see if there were any "traditional" type bluegrass songs or fiddle tunes with a cello and I could not locate a single one.

Nothing against bands like Crooked Still or Norman & Nancy, but there must be someone who is doing straight-up bluegrass with the cello (besides Yo-Yo Ma  :Wink:  )

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## MikeEdgerton

I own a cello (inherited) and have never even thought about playing it in the band. Now I'm curious.

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## btrott

As an alternative to the 'cello, you could always try the viola da gamba. Lynn Trott holds down the bass section of the Runaway String Band on a 7-string gamba. As others have mentioned, it gives a range of possibilities from the plucked bass accompaniment to a more legato bowed lead and backup sound. It's versatile, portable, and always gets interesting comments from the audience.

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## etteM

So, i guess there are a few bands with cello!: D i really liked the one above, but i kind of start humming "i´m on my way back to the old home" in the chorous there :Smile:  ?

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## etteM

HAHA! and thats not even a cello! Cheaters!  : D 

uhm it came up when i searched for cello and they had a cello in one of the other ones :Smile:

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## Tom Mullen

You need to check out the Rockin Acoustic Circus from Tulsa OK. They have a kick a** band and a cello player. This is headed up by Rick Morton on guitar and features Erik Dysart on the fiddle. Watch for Eric's name in the future....he is a rising star.

check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STpR6szGSZg

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## mandozilla

> But Monroe had an accordion player in the Blue Grass Boys . . . she even takes a break on a song with Blue Grass in the title. Seem like that ought to make a squeezebox into some part of sumpthin'. I'm just sayin'.


You're absolutely right Tree. But to me, Bluegrass, as I know it, started with the Bill, Lester F, Earl S, Chubby W, Cedric R, Blue Grass Boys line up ca. 1946. Not taking away anything fro Sally Ann F...she played accordian that fit well with the BG Boys before it was Bluegrass music (to me).  :Wink: 





> And Monroe recorded with an organ player, an electric guitarist, even a xylophone player. If Harold Bradley had dragged a cellist into one of those Decca sessions, Mullah M and the rest of the BG Taliban would be plugging a different orthodoxy.


And Allen H.  I'll bet Bill was none too happy about it. And since he didn't carry those instruments, this Ayatollah of Bluegrass plugs straight, traditional Bluegrass music...but that's just me.  :Grin: 

QUOTE]
It takes a special kind of semi-closed mind to convert fifty years of musical experimentation into a fossilized perspective of unchanging sameness. IMHO, that's what's really "no part of nothin'."[/QUOTE]

Allen, if you want to tinker, tweek, or tamper with Bluegrass music by all means go ahead...all I'm saying is if you want to add a Sousaphone or Kettle Drums to your bluegrass line-up go right ahead but then please don't call it Bluegrass music...That's all.  :Whistling: 

 :Coffee:   :Mandosmiley: 

Oh, and BTW, that would be 63 years, not 50 years.

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## tree

Well, I reckon it would be a boring world if we were all exactly the same.  Bluegrass music (to me) is definitely different than bluegrass music (to you).

But I can still call it bluegrass.  And we can still get along.  :Mandosmiley:

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## allenhopkins

> Allen, if you want to tinker, tweek, or tamper with Bluegrass music by all means go ahead...all I'm saying is if you want to add a Sousaphone or Kettle Drums to your bluegrass line-up go right ahead but then please don't call it Bluegrass music...That's all...Oh, and BTW, that would be 63 years, not 50 years.


Well, when Lester and Earl added Burkett "Uncle Josh" Graves on Dobro, was that "tinkering, tweaking or tampering?"  Bill Monroe never had a Dobro player!  You wanta kick Graves, Douglas, Auldridge etc. out of the Church of Orthodox Bluegrass?  What about the electric bass?  Jim & Jesse and the Osbornes used one, but Bill M never did.  Is that "bluegrass," or not?  I remember all the fuss 'n' feathers about Keith-style or melodic banjo; "Not traditional bluegrass!" all the Scruggs acolytes screamed, but Monroe had no trouble putting Keith in his band (though he did have trouble with his first name).

And women!  I heard my traditional-bluegrass-loving friends saying in the '60's that "it just don't sound like bluegrass with a woman singing it!"  Care to advance that point of view now?  I think you'd get some grief from the Krauss, Vincent, Hull, Boatwright, etc., etc. fans.

What you're actually saying is, "As a bluegrass fan, I don't care for certain kinds of innovation that some bands have tried or are trying."  Fine; that's your right.  Others may disagree.  Some would consign Chris Thile, David Grisman, Tony Rice, Bela Fleck and Tony Trischka to non-BG purgatory; others think that their music is an interesting and welcome extension of the traditional bluegrass idiom.  Lots of room for differences of opinion.

But no one has the power to decide what does or doesn't constitute a particular musical style; not the IBGMA, not _Bluegrass Unlimited,_ not anybody.  No one can say what constitutes jazz, swing, rock, soul, hip-hop, Tex-Mex, Cajun, or any style.  Saying "I don't like it" is one thing.  Saying "you can't call it bluegrass (jazz, swing, rock, etc.)" is something else.

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## mandozilla

O.K. you win.

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## AlanN

:Crying: ....no fair...it is/it ain't bluegrass interruptus!

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## mandopete

Still no "traditional" bluegrass material with cello?

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## LarryMando

there's always room for cello

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## ralph johansson

> Well, when Lester and Earl added Burkett "Uncle Josh" Graves on Dobro, was that "tinkering, tweaking or tampering?"  Bill Monroe never had a Dobro player!  You wanta kick Graves, Douglas, Auldridge etc. out of the Church of Orthodox Bluegrass?  What about the electric bass?  Jim & Jesse and the Osbornes used one, but Bill M never did.  Is that "bluegrass," or not?  I remember all the fuss 'n' feathers about Keith-style or melodic banjo; "Not traditional bluegrass!" all the Scruggs acolytes screamed, but Monroe had no trouble putting Keith in his band (though he did have trouble with his first name).


in the spring of 1969 monroe toured germany. in bu around that time there was a picture of the band with james monroe playing the electric. electric bass guitars in bluegrass have mostly been a matter of convenience rather than an artistic decision -  it's such as silly way of using the electric,
comparable to walking an electric in jazz.

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## ralph johansson

> Which happened, I think, only at the behest of record company G-men looking for a modernized buck. Mullah M (love that) would likely have said 'No sir' to that line-up, 'twere it left up to him.


the electric sessions of course in no way represented an extension,
modernization or even commercialization of the bluegrass group sound. the bg format was *replaced* by a 
studio formula -the musicians, except monroe, were all session cats. most of the stuff was canned anyway. some of it is horrible, some of it ludicrous.
ironically, the least commercially appealing ingredient of monroe's music at the time was probably his singing.

the organ, always played by owen bradley,  was used on one or two of the electric numbers and apart from these only on gospel numbers, again never in a bluegrass context (no fiddle, no banjo). cheesy but marginal.
the lp "i saw the light" was issued under the name of bill monroe, no bg boys, not even bg quartet.

finally, again referring to the post you quote there never was a xylophone on a monroe recording. christmas time had a vibraphone, and like the piano on might pretty waltz it was actually added to a bg sound, but of marginal importance.

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## R. Kane

> there's always room for cello


++  :Grin:

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## ralph johansson

> But Monroe had an accordion player in the Blue Grass Boys . . .  she even takes a break on a song with Blue Grass in the title.  Seem like that ought to make a squeezebox into some part of sumpthin'.  I'm just sayin'.


it is part of the pre-history of bg. monroe went professional in '34, became a recrding artist in '36, and a band leader in '39. but there was no bluegrass before late '45 when scruggs joined the group. that's the group that started a genre. no earlier group of monroe's had that kind of impact.

i've said this before: the reason many of us resist the idea of an accordion in a bluegrass band is not purism or fanatism as some would have it. it's just that some people don't like accordions.

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## Rob Gerety

Oh, for crying out loud, music is music. Forget the labels.  We're starting to sound like the father in "Fiddler on the Roof".  If you don't keep adding to the art form and moving forward all of a sudden you'll find yourself playing all by yourself with no one in the audience. 

Go for the Cello - assuming the player is skilled and creative enough to make it work.  I've seen Crooked Still numerous times up our way here and it is just plain terrific music - however you characterize it - and when Rashad was playing he set the groove for every tune.  Very strong player.  I understand he is playing punk now.

Wasn't the lady playing accordion with Bill Monroe his wife?

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## Mike Bunting

> Wasn't the lady playing accordion with Bill Monroe his wife?


Twas his fiddle player's (Howdy Forrester) wife, Sally.

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## Mike Bunting

:Redface:

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## journeybear

Interesting thread. As usual, learning stuff I never knew. Accordion in bluegrass? Sigh ...  :Whistling: 

Just thought I'd mention two people who have pushed the envelope for cello - not bluegrass, but in the other direction, ie, rock: Cameron Stone, who used to play with the marvelous Donna DeLory when they called the duo "Bliss," and Nadia Lanman, who used to play with the amazing Heather Nova. Both of these muscians played acoustically and electrically, achieving an astounding variety of sonic textures and effects. They really opened my mind to the possibilites of the instrument in contexts I had not previously imagined.

(BTW, Donna's day job is one of the two featured dancers in Madonna's stage show, and her dad was a successful music producer, including much of Glen Campbell's golden era, as well as cowriting and producing the novelty hit, "Please Mr. Custer." Heather is, well, a super Nova, blessed with a truly astounding gift in her voice. No mandos, as far as I know. But no ones' perfect - close, though ...  :Wink:  )

Then of course there's Virgil Starkwell's use of the instrument in a marching band:

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## OKMike

Journeybear,

 love it, virgil cracked me up

Mike

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## allenhopkins

> i've said this before: the reason many of us resist the idea of an accordion in a bluegrass band is not purism or fanatism as some would have it. it's just that some people don't like accordions.


Well, at least that's honest.  I don't particularly enjoy "bluegrass accordion" either.  But I don't claim to be the arbiter of what is or isn't bluegrass.

Some people posting on this thread apparently don't like cello.  Fine.  But don't tell me "it can't be bluegrass if it has a cello in it."  It can be whatever it is, and you can like it or not.

There's a contention that the pre-Flatt, Scruggs, Wise, Watts editions of Bill Monroe's Blue Grass Boys weren't bluegrass -- I guess because they had a different banjo style (Stringbean, _et. al._)  Seems to me that whatever Monroe's band played was the "bluegrass" of the period.  Listening to the old Columbia recordings, you can surely hear the roots of the later style.  But, of course, you could say the same about listening to Mainer's Mountaineers or Snuffy Jenkins' Hired Hands.

A discussion of the pros and cons of a bluegrass band with a cello is one thing.  Saying that there's a universally-accepted definition of what bluegrass is is something else.  I think Mr. Monroe was, perhaps, less orthodox than his orthodox acolytes.

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## Rob Gerety

So, what do you think? This qualifies as "bluegrass" don't you think?  This is a recent performance by Rushad Eggleston - of Crooked Still fame, with his new band - Tornado Rider. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR8Y8Lw3mEY

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## journeybear

> ....  I think Mr. Monroe was, perhaps, less orthodox than his orthodox acolytes.


That is often the case - those who follow an innovator often tend to attempt to recreate those innovations rather than strive to achieve their own. It's just as important to bear in mind the _spirit_ of the innovation as the _means_ with which it was achieved.

An example which received a bit of discussion on another thread is the required instrumentation for the IBMA Bluegrass Band Competition. The basic four-person lineup is bass, guitar, mandolin, and banjo. Any larger oufit needed the inclusion of these four plus whatever else - fiddle, dobro, accordion (not!). So according to them, fiddle is not a required instrument, regardless of how many bands have included it instead of mandolin or banjo. I know this is splitting hairs, and I have no idea how they arrived at their decision  :Confused:  (surely involved compromise), but it does provoke thought. And it gives some credence to ralph johansson's contention that bluegrass didn't exist per se before Scruggs joined up. I don't agree, but it does make me go "hmmm ..."  :Whistling: 

BTW, accordion in a bluegrass band made me think that that would make it more like country ... and then I got to thinking how (so I heard) western swing developed partly from a tradition of German musicians in Texas, who played accordion .. and then I got to thinking how accordion has been used very differently in a great many types of music in a great many cultures all around the world ... and then I stopped thinking and got out my mandolin and soon began to feel a whole lot better ...  :Mandosmiley:   :Grin:   :Whistling:

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## sunburst

> Sure, that's traditional, almost all bluegrass banjo players wear a head-band!
> 
> <grins>


There's one in nearly every Stetson...

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## allenhopkins

I remember watching Buck White & the Down Home Folks on a TV show about bluegrass.  Buck on mandolin, Jerry Douglas on Dobro, Buck's two daughters on guitar and bass fiddle.  No banjo in sight.  Sounded a lot like bluegrass to me, but I guess IBGMA wouldn't think so.

Monroe himself considered a fiddle as necessary in the Blue Grass Boys -- sometimes two fiddles, at least when recording.  Most of the first generation bands had a fiddler; I guess Jimmy Martin didn't, when he worked with the Osbornes and later.  When I think about bands that dropped the fiddle, Country Gentlemen and their descendants (Seldom Scene _et. al._) always come to mind.

None of them had 'cello.  There, I've conceded the point.  Hey, doesn't Ronnie McCoury play mandola sometimes?  Does the band stop being "bluegrass" when he picks it up?

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## Mike Bunting

If Pink Floyd had recorded Dark Side of the Moon with mando, banjo, acoustic guitar, doghouse bass and a fiddle, would it have been bluegrass?

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## journeybear

Didn't someone somewhere recently post a video of a band in Wizard Of Oz garb doing a bluegrass version of a song from DSOTM?  :Confused:  Then there's Jim Broyles' avatar, some other British band gone bluegrass ...  :Wink:

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## barney 59

> As great as those bands are, what makes you think it's bluegrass?


I saw the Monster Sting Quartet last night. Natalie Haas is a great cellist and Daryl is a  man after my own heart-- surrounding himself with young pretty girls,--- I kept thinking of the old Robert Palmer video. It wasn't bluegrass and I'm sure that they wouldn't classify it as such themselves but Peter Rowan came out for one song=="Stoney Lonesome" and cello and all I'd consider that bluegrass. Peter on guitar lots of fiddles and the cello filling in the bottom --it worked really well. I was not however the best thing that they played last night.

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## Mike Bunting

Actually, I think there would be room for the cello in the right circumstances in the bluegrass music. I'd like the feel of a sostinato low range going on beneath the melody. Is it OK if I get back to discussing the original topic?  :Smile:

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## journeybear

Well, all right, maybe just _this_ time ... but don't try to make a habit of it, OK?  :Wink: 

And next time, say "Please!"  :Laughing: 

BTW, the question posed by the OP was not _whether_ cello should be used in bluegrass, but _how_ to use it - that is, arrange it - and also for string band, not necessarily bluegrass. Just sayin' ...  :Whistling:

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## Mike Bunting

> Well, all right, maybe just _this_ time ... but don't try to make a habit of it, OK? 
> 
> And next time, say "Please!" 
> 
> BTW, the question posed by the OP was not _whether_ cello should be used in bluegrass, but _how_ to use it - that is, arrange it - and also for string band, not necessarily bluegrass. Just sayin' ...


Yeah, I like drony sounds so that's why I suggested having it playing lines below the melody playing long notes.

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## journeybear

Kind of what I was thinking, too, for slower songs, sad songs, waltzes too. Say "Dark As A Dungeon," "In The Pines." Not sure how well it would work on faster songs ... though of course, as with anything a little out of the ordinary, trial and error will be necessary. Another thing to consider is volume balance - cellos can get pretty loud.

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## Jim Nollman

Makes me curious if anyone has ever sampled any part of Bill Monroe's music to construct a groove. what do we call it? hiphopgrass?

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## Wolfboy

> so, is there any use for a cellist in a stringband and how would you arrange that?


Submitted for your approval: Sam Bush's first solo album, _Late as Usual_, with Nancy Blake on cello on two tracks, demonstrating two possible roles for the instrument in a stringband context.

"Last Letter Home" is pretty much a slow bluegrass song in both style and instrumentation (although granted, there's no banjo). Personnel: Sam, mandolin and lead vocal; John Cowan, electric bass and tenor vocal; Curtis Burch, dobro; Norman Blake, guitar; Nancy Blake, cello. John's holding down the bass role so Nancy is free to create a soft sustaining countermelody that underscores the darkness of the lyric.

"Norman and Nancy", a Bush original (named in honor of guess who!), is more similar to the Blakes' Rising Fawn String Ensemble work, not surprisingly. Personnel: Sam, fiddle and mandolin; Nancy, cello and mandolin; Norman, guitar. Nancy fills more of a bass role here since the cello's the lowest pitched instrument on the track. It's got a nice old-time fiddle tune groove that the cello helps gently drive along.

As for precedent, have a look at this:
http://www.folkways.si.edu/albumdetails.aspx?itemid=276

That's not the New Lost City Ramblers in the picture, before anyone asks; it's an old photo they found somewhere and liked. Probably dates from around the 1930s.

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## Gutbucket

One of the most haunting performances I ever remember is of Bruce Molsky on fiddle and Rashad Englestrom on cello, playing old time fiddle tunes together at Mark O'Connors Fiddle camp in Tennessee a few years ago.  You'd have to think somewhere in some old cabin in Appalachia, there might be a beat-up cello brought over from the old country that was played by the fire in the evening.  It sounded great!

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## MadMax

I believe there is a cello in "My Last Days on Earth."  I also think that Bill liked the sound and called it a "sello."

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## JeffD

As I mentioned in another thread, we had a cello in our OT and Northern jams at Lake Genero festival. It was really fantastic.

In one case the cello was playing melody and harmonies and it just filled out the whole sound. In another case it was a plucked cello - sort of a sit down bass.

It just works.


It is not listed in the IBGMA rules but it can really sound great.

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## ralph johansson

> Twas his fiddle player's (Howdy Forrester) wife, Sally.



Wilene (Billy) "Sally Ann"  Forrester joined the band when Howard F was drafted. The fiddler on the first Columbia Session was Chubby Wise.

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## ralph johansson

> I believe there is a cello in "My Last Days on Earth."  I also think that Bill liked the sound and called it a "sello."


There were in fact a string ensemble and a backing vocal group. Obviously this recording represented a complete and conscious departure from the BG formula, which involves head-arrangements and spontaneous interaction.


There is of course plenty of potential for a cello in an otherwise BG ensemble. But five already is quite a crowd and as soon as you introduce another instrument you'll have to drop one, re-distribute and restrict the roles of the instruments or work things out in greater detail. If I knew a good cellist I would go in the other direction and ask myself what to add to the cello and my guitar or mandolin. And forget about labels completely.

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## John McGann

Music doesn't care _what_ you call it.

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## AlanN

The cello is probably the closest to the field of the 'not used for bluegrass music' out there. It is (usu.) not plugged in, is made of wood and strings, is mostly bowed, it resembles a fiddle or bass, and can be quiet. You just need to sit down to play it. 

Now, if some wants the 'I Am The Walrus' groove, it can be done.

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## ralph johansson

> Music doesn't care _what_ you call it.


Are you commenting on my post just before yours? The OP asked about the potential uses of a cello in a string band; I simply don't consider an overdubbed string section (6 pieces) playing from a written score to be an example of *that*. Maybe some people are too hung up on what had, or would have had, Monroe's approval. I have no use for idolatry, nor labels.

(Unless I missed it I've seen no comment on the much more convincing
 use of a string quartet on Dailey& Vincent's "On the other Side". )

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## Mike Snyder

Post # 38 of this thread, by 56 Gibson Hoss, gave the definitive answer to the OPs question. The Rockin' Acoustic Circus, of Tulsa Ok. plays driving, straight ahead bluegrass, and has a cello as an integral part of the band. Check them out, they have recordings and videos. It's the real deal. They played Winfield, and that little gal lugged that cello out into the campground and jammed with the best of them.

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## Dave Gumbart

Grey Fox Bluegrass Festival (winner of IBMA Bluegrass event of the year this year!) had the following folks perform at an in-room IBMA showcase.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcWPkP800V0

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## Mandoviol

Really nice use of cello on Cherryholmes' "Broken."  That *and* octave fiddle make it extra spooky.  With regards to Natalie Haas, I saw her with Alastair Fraser, Bruce Molsky, and Martin Hayes doing some pretty nifty stuff.

Apparently, cello has historically been widely used in Scottish music, so I don't think it would be all that out of place in a bluegrass setting (what with Appalachian roots and all).

Also, for a good example of an accordian in a bluegrass song, see (or hear, rather) "Crown of Jewels" and "Stubb" on Ricky Skaggs and Bruce Hornsby's duo album and Bruce Molsky's rendition of "Shove the Pig's Foot a Little Further into the Fire" on _Transatlantic Sessions Vol. 3_.  It works quite well.

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## AlanN

Another LP that had the cello was the Osborne Brothers' Bluegrass Concerto. Maybe played by Buddy Spicher. That LP was cool, had several Bob Osborne original mandolin tunes, plus a full string section.

Wonder what Bill thought of it...

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## Tom Mullen

Thanks Mike for re-affirming my original post. Here is more of the RAC with the cello playing Whiskey Before Breakfast. Then she tears apart Jerusalem Ridge. 
This youtube is from an IBMA jam this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcWPk...eature=related

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