# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  Handel Tuners

## Gerry Tenney

I am interested to know where I can find more
&gt; information on the company that made these tuners.
&gt; In the process of buying an A-4 , I took a close
&gt; look at the design on the tuners and realized that
&gt; part of the lines on them seem to be in the shape of
&gt; Hebrew (script) letters. This could be purely
&gt; coincidental, but if the family and/or the designer
&gt; of the tuners was Jewish it could be an
&gt; interesting story. Maybe someone's initials?? I
&gt; could be way off but I'm curious. I know the basic story of their being German and not being able to get them in WW1 etc.
Gerry Tenney

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## BlueMountain

Mandoklez, it was an interesting question, so I found an eBay ad from a few weeks ago that had pretty decent closeups that might be of use to you: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Pre-1920-Gibson-F2-Mandolin-Tuners-Handel-Inlaid_W0QQitemZ7350408094QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1
%3Cbr%3EQQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Pre-192....iewItem</a>
My Hebrew is slow and halting, though I do work with it on occasion. However, in the closeups, it doesn't look like Hebrew to ME, though at first sight one might see an aleph in the main figure. Actually, one might say it looks more like little Gregg shorthand symbols, or perhaps copy-editing symbols.

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## Bob DeVellis

As little wire squiggles, they resemble a lot of script symbols (like the numeral 2) but I suspect they're just decorative shapes suggesting tendrils on a vine.

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## Gerry Tenney

When I look at the "squiggles", which is what they just might be, I see an ayin and a daled or perhaps a beis. Anyhow I'd still like to know more about the manufacturer.
 Gerry

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## Bob DeVellis

The manufacturer is pretty much shrouded in mystery as far as I know. Europe, especially Germany, produced a lot of the decorative material used on American fretted instruments in the latter 19th and early 20th century. Many of the pre-cut pearl inlays and inlayed pickguards seen during that era were bought out of catalogs or special ordered from German companies. There has been some discussion about the composition of the Handel buttons, with Roger Siminoff describing them as bone but clearly many of them (perhaps all) are plastic. The consensus from a thread a while back was that the wire and pearl may have been positioned and then the plastic poured over them. There is no evidence of cutting into a solid button to inlay the bits and pieces and no sign that they were pressed into soft plastic. Some examples exist of the same bits of pearl and wire with the wire out of its usual position, a result that seems consistent with pouring molten plastic onto the pre-arranged pieces sitting an a mold. These were discontinued on Gibson instruments around 1917 as a result of WWI making the importation of German products impossible. Siminoff has also said that Handel made the entire tuner assembly and not just the decorative buttons.

As for the company itself, I've never heard of anyone discovering anything about it. People have done searches, have asked German friends if they have any knowledge of a Handel Company past or present, all to no avail as far as I know. It's interesting that the brand name is well known but that no one seems to know anything about the company. There must be a trail of evidence somewhere but I've never heard anything about it.

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## Eugene

References to "Handel" have always seemed shaky to me, and I've never seen them accompanied by any real citations. Not based in Germany, but I've recently wondered if Handel tuners might have had something to do with the decorative glass company that was based in Connecticut. I haven't explored the notion myself at all, only mused. Has anybody explored possible links there?

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## Gerry Tenney

Here's some information I found Googling." The tuners alone are worth $250.00 a set. These were made in Germany in ONE little village in Saxony, Handelstein. The industrious Handelsteiners had done inlaying and carving of bone and ivory for at least 200 years, thus the pegs are commonly referred to as "Handel Tuners" . Christian Martin made sure (another saxon, he) that he imported the ivory and bone tuners from there to fit his more expensive guitars (actual cost 1860 for a CF Martin top-of-the-line parlour guitar? $45.00!) 
It was a cottage industry for someone to shape the bone thumb-pegs and then someone else would engrave the bone thumb-pegs and then someone else would inlay the flowers on the bone thumb-pegs and someone else would..... you get the idea. 

Well, a complication arose....called WW1. Being experts in engraving bone, most of Handelstein's young men went and started engraving French and Belgian skulls with lead, and the industry died. When the US entered the war, it was now un-patriotic to use these and so Gibson sent all it's stock back to the importer and went to plain bone thumb-peg tuners from then on in. Until then, these Handel tuners were a premium feature on not only mandolins, but guitars, mandolas, mandocellos, etc."
 It can be found at: http://www.oldmusicproject.com/23JAN2003.html
Gerry

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## Martin Jonas

I wonder whether "Handel" might just have been a brand for the tuners (named for the musical connection), rather than the name of the company. The same company might have made non-musical items (whether in the field of precision mechanics or decorative household items) under completely different names. Indeed, the name "Handel" might only have been used for the exported goods on the grounds that Americans might actually have heard of the composer but might not have heard of whatever brand name was used within Germany. In such a situation, tracing the manufacturer within Germany might be very difficult indeed, unless original invoices, packaging or catalogues for the tuners might be located to give an address.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

> These were made in Germany in ONE little village in Saxony, Handelstein.


Sounds good with one little problem: there is no village of that name in Saxony or anywhere else in Germany.

Martin

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## BlueMountain

Mandoklez, did you say a set was worth $250? The link in my above post shows that a set sold recently on eBay for $635! I guess if that's the only thing keeping one from having an apparently original very expensive instrument, one pays what one must.

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## Gerry Tenney

The quote I used was from 2003, I think. Yes I did see The $635.00 from eBay. Just shows I guess, what's happening to vintage "stuff" in the mandolin world, especially Gibson, it seems.
 Gerry

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## Eugene

> Here's some information I found Googling...


This is exactly the kind of citation-less info to which I'd referred. #Print references are no better. #...And I've never seen Handel tuners on a Gibson that looked like it sported bone/ivory buttons. #All I've seen looked like ivoroid.

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## Gerry Tenney

I believe that my citation is at the end of my posting. If #this is not what you mean, I'd be glad to make things clearer.
Gerry

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## SAMLEE

I have a set on my Brentrup M22C in "Post a Pic of yer Mando page 3 I bought for $500 last year. Guess I did okay.

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## Martin Jonas

Gerry -- I believe that neither Eugene nor I were criticising _your_ citation, but rather expressing doubts about the accuracy of the information in the source you quoted. It seems to be little more than unsubstantiated hearsay retold, without any actual primary sources cited. As I've already said, the one bit of verifiable information on the web site doesn't check out: there is no village with that name. Try it yourself: a Google search for "Handelstein" gives you eight hits (five of them identical). The one you found is the only one in which the word is used as a place name. Every real German place name (even those now in Poland or the Czech Republic) has hundreds of hits, on local interest web sites as well as genealogy sites. Multimap doesn't list the place. It doesn't look good for the accuracy of the information cited.

Martin

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## Eugene

> I believe that my citation is at the end of my posting. If #this is not what you mean, I'd be glad to make things clearer.


No, no. #Like Martin alludes, I was referring to http://www.oldmusicproject.com/23JAN2003.html where all this marvelous info was presented without any real citations...without even referring to a city that exists.

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## Gerry Tenney

OK. So where does one go from here?
Gerry

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## Eugene

I really don't know. #Check out Bob's fine Gibson F-4 page; that's about as much info as there is. #Folks have been stewing on the Handel tuner dilemma for years--restating the German origin story, the phase out with WWI, and even the Handel name--based only (as far as I know) on Siminoff and a couple other circular references without any real documentation of a true point of origin. #...And in spite of what Siminoff wrote, I think the buttons on Gibson tuners were ivoroid. #I have encountered a fair number, but don't own a set. #Perhaps somebody with a set on hand can comment if any of Gibson's did use buttons of vertebrate origin.

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## Michael Lewis

I traded a fret job for a set of F style Handel machines a couple years ago, and the buttons are not bone or ivory but celluloid.

Just recently on the Antiques Roadshow there was a lamp made by the Handel company in New England, and the comment by the antique expert mentioning the company did indeed make many decorative items. I think it might be more fruitful to contact some experts from the auction houses (Skinner, Christie's, Sotheby, etc.)

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## danb

That's interesting. I believe Roger Siminoff is now a cafe member as well, perhaps if he's reading these notes he can comment on his sources.

I think Hans also nearly ignited a button by accident recently, disproving the bone theory. I've noticed on a couple different Fs I've had that the pattern on them evolves a bit.. those tuner buttons also show up on other mandolins..

The plates that they are on are quite similar to the unadorned ones, though usually the handels are stamped (cast?) with a more intricate pattern on the plate.

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## Bob DeVellis

I have two sets of Handels and both are plastic (presumably celluloid). Also, the misplaced wires that were shown in a previous thread are hard to imagine if the manufacturing involved cutting and inlaying. Anyone sober enough to make the cuts would be unlikely to put them in entirely the wrong place. Back in the day when Siminoff was fielding questions by the truckload for popular acoustic instrument publications, it would hardly be surprising if a few goofs crept into his answers, especially when information was sparse. There aren't too many vintage instrument experts I can think of who haven't gotten it wrong on occasion -- an occupational hazard when dealing with lost information.

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## Joe Robinson

FYI...here's half of the Handels on my F2, serial# 12050.
Joe

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## Gerry Tenney

So It seems that at this moment, on this thread, the place of manufacture of the tuners is in question. When I started this I just assumed they were made in Germany, but even this seems to have no definite documentation. I did a perfuntory check on the company in Connecticut, but it has been out of business since the 30's. Got to check some auction houses for more information. At some point I'd like to get back to the design "squiggles" Are they Hebrew letters. Are they hidden in the design. This is not an unheard of practice. Al Hirschfield used to draw theatre cartoons in the New York Times with his daughter's name (Nina) hidden within the cartoon. There's even a style of Jewish art where you make the entire drawing out of letters. I'm sure this is true in other cultures also. Hope I haven't gone to far afield here. Handel is a German and Jewish last name. It means to trade. In Yiddish a handler can also be someone who is a hard bargainer. I don't think the name has anything to do with the composer.
 Perhaps Rodger Siminoff can clear up some of the questions about the documentation of the German connection.
Gerry

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## evanreilly

I tend to discount any 'hidden messages' in the button ornamentation. I think they are vines and flowers, like, vines and flowers!!

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## Eugene

Of course, I intend no slight to Siminoff. My point only was that I've heard the Handel/Germany/WWI story repeated _ad infinitum_ without a shred of period documentation: sales slips, a known shop, etc. There must be some evidence of something related somewhere.

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## Gerry Tenney

Evan might be right, though everyone I've showed them to who knows the Hebrew alphabet agrees that it could be. But now until some more documented info comes in, there is an uncertainty about their manufacture itself! Their German origin and removal during WW1 is compelling circumstansial evidence but of course does not prove anything. Hoping to hear or find out more.
Gerry

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## Bob DeVellis

Gerry - With all due respect, "compelling" seems a bit strong. Many products imported from Germany were discontinued around the time of the world wars. Normal trade was severely disrupted. You may be right about the squiggles representing Hebrew letters but is seems that the data are more "consistent" with that position than "compelling." I see the numeral "2" for example, but I suspect that the fact that the wire is shaped like a "2" is more coincidental than indicative of anything more significant. Of course, I could be wrong and you could be right. It just seems that the jury's still out on many issues related to Handel tuners.

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## Darryl Wolfe

I personally believe that Gibson imported substantial amounts of materials, both raw and crafted from Germany. #I think the shell inlay was cut there and that all of their binding materials originated there. #Why else would their shell dots be 6mm and their bindings and pickguards be in incremental divisions of oddball sizes like 0.070" or 18MM.

For many years (50's 60's and '70's) almost all pre-cut inlay came from Germany..US suppliers all offered the same menu/recipe of stuff from one source in Germany

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## Gerry Tenney

Yes , I agree that consistent is proably the better word. I have no stake in any side of this. I'm just a curious guy. Although if the Handel's were Jewish and they were hidden letters.......! But once again I'm interested in finding the real story. Histories Mysteries needs some mandolin detectives.
 Gerry

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## SternART

OY!!! 
Someone call PBS..... they have a history detective show!
IMO, the design looks like decorative vines, consistant with 
Art Nouveau design.

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## Mike Buesseler

Origins, techniques, and hidden letters aside, I seem to have noticed at least several vintage Gibson instruments for sale here in the classifieds that seem--considering the suggested going price of Handels--underpriced. #I saw a mandola for sale here a few months ago that was around $2000. #It looked to be in great shape--mostly, if not all, original. #If the tuners alone are worth over $600, wouldn't that be a STEAL for a 20s Gibson H mandola?

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## Jim Garber

> I have no stake in any side of this. I'm just a curious guy. Although if the Handel's were Jewish and they were hidden letters.......!


All right, Gerry. I am familiar with the Hebrew alphabet. Looking at Joe Robinson's photo, what letter do you see and if so what do they mean.

I, too, am of the camp that these are merely decorative, even if made by a German Jewish company.

Jim

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## Gerry Tenney

On the top tuner for example it could be a script daled (beis) at the top an a script ayin at 3:00 o'clock. These 2 figures repeat on each tuner and on every tuner. You might be right, again I'm just speculating.
 Gerry

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## Jim Garber

I was just browsing thru the first edition of Gruhn & Carter's _Acoustic Guitars_ and I noticed two references to a Handel Company in new York City. 

On page 205, referring to a 1946 D'Angelico guitar:




> The pearl signature piece was made and installed by the Louis Handel Company, which was located around the corner form D'Angelico's shop.


On Page 269, referring to a Larson-made Maurer guitar, circa 1915:




> The fancy fingerboard may be the work of the Handel Company of New York City, which did pearl work for various makers, including Martin, Gibson, and D'Angelico.


I know -- no mention of tuners, but it is possible, yes? Certainly as possible or even more possible than having them imported from Germany.

Does anyone have further information on this company?

Next time I am in the big library in New York, I will check on the city directory listings for this company.

BTW here is information about the Handel glass company that Eugene referred to.

Jim

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## Darryl Wolfe

Good information Jim. That could possibly put a different twist on the "ordered and cut" in Germany theory for inlays. Now possibly the story could be, ordered from Handel in New York. They may have maintained a huge supply of materials from Germany, and may have had their own local craftsmen.

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## JEStanek

Has anyone asked Big Joe to inquire into the Gibson Archives?

Jamie
Interesting thread as I listen to Statman/Grisman's Songs of Our Fathers that I got for Christmas.

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## Jim Garber

I emailed Gruhn/Carter to see if they have additional info. Carter was Gibson historian but perhaps Joe can find info also.

Jim

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## Bob DeVellis

If not German, why the disappearance around the time of WWI? Assuming a supply was ordered at the outbreak of the war, running out in about 1918 makes sense. Still, the New York idea is an intriguing possibility that should be explored further. The Washburn & Johnston Martin book shows a couple of pages from a supply book for wood purfling and the writing at the top of the page is in German, strongly suggesting that Martin, at least, got trim supplies from Germany. But then, C.F. was German. This isn't by any means definitive regarding Gibson's practices.

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## Jim Garber

I have a feeling that it was cutting costs, perhaps. What was the point pof having ultrafancy tuner buttons? Just a hunch.

Jim

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## Django Fret

What about the Vega Clyinderback's that had Handel tuners?

Is anyone aware of any Vega records that might be available to help shed some light on this?

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## Professor PT

I know there was a company named Handel that made high end lamps around the turn of the century. Maybe there's some connection there?

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## Jim Garber

> I know there was a company named Handel that made high end lamps around the turn of the century. Maybe there's some connection there?


That was the one that Eugene mentioned earlier in this thread. I doubt that. More likely a New York company that has some connection with music manufacturers or else imported from Germany where there is evidence that some companies did import inlay materials.

Jim

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## danb

I'll see if I can find anything out from any of my archive contacts.. There must be records somewhere. What happened to the vega company? I recall they were bought & sold a couple times.. they bought the same arrow-end plates in the 20s.. handels pre-1918.. I think that for the most part, Gibson used commodity tuners in the day. The L&H mandos and bowlbacks actually had the fancier sealed & plated style tuners!

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## Django Fret

> What happened to the vega company? I recall they were bought & sold a couple times.. they bought the same arrow-end plates in the 20s.. handels pre-1918..


According to a couple of Web sites that deal mainly with b@njos, the Vega company was producing instruments up until the early seventies:

http://www.banjolin.supanet.com/vegahistory.htm

There are also a number of references to Vega history in some publications listed at:

http://www.trussel.com/bti/bansourc.htm

Some of those articles might provide some clues. Were there any other mandolin manufacturing companies besides Gibson and Vega that used Handel's?

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## danb

I've seen a few no-names with Handel tuners on ebay..

I had a chat with a couple of sources and it seems so far that nobody has any documentation or proof to back up the story that Handels came from Germany. Very interesting. I'll have to comb some old catalogs and see if there is any mention of the tuners. I have a pretty old set on 3263 (my F2), and they are different plates & posts & gears, but the famous buttons are almost identical to ones from the teens.

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## Jim Garber

I heard from Walter Carter who also said that he had heard they were from Germany but no corroboration on this. I have one more possible source I am checking with and will let you know.

Jim

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## woodwiz

> If not German, why the disappearance around the time of WWI? #


In a word, fashion. Art Nouveau and Victorian influences became passe around the time of WWI, to be replaced by Deco. No market for flowers and vines.

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## woodwiz

Just to further cloud the issue, there is a town named Handeloh in Saxony, just south of Hamburg. I have no idea what their economy is or was based upon.

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## Bob DeVellis

> If not German, why the disappearance around the time of WWI? 
> 
> In a word, fashion. Art Nouveau and Victorian influences became passe around the time of WWI, to be replaced by Deco. No market for flowers and vines.


True, Art Noveau declined as the 20s approached but look at a 1920 F-4. Everything but the Handel tuners is still there. The overall shape and headstock inlay certainly haven't been updated. Most design elements stayed around a lot longer than that. While changing the body shape would be a pretty big deal, inlay would have been both easier and cheaper to apply in a simple, clean Art Deco style. The double-flowerpot hung on for a few more years. It's elimination around 1921 seems to have been because of the need for a truss rod cover rather than for any aesthetic reason. And the single flowerpot that replaced it strikes me as more Art Noveau than Art Deco (not a straight line in sight, save for the bottom of the pot base). So, while not rejecting the argument out of hand, I'm not willing to embrace it fully just yet.

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## Tom C

Someone call PBS..... they have a history detective show!

I emailed them...

In the early 1900's Gibson Guitars and Mandolins used tuners on their mandolins. These are called Handel tuners that came from Germany. They are made of ivory with inlayed with wire and minerals.

On mandolincafe.com their is a thread discussing these along with a picture of them.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....05;st=0

Due to WW1, Gibson stop importing these and the company seems to be a big mystery. How happened to them? what other products did they make? How did they make these tuners. They are great demand in the mandolin community and a big piece of missing history since Gibson was (and maybe still is) the innovator and leader in mandolins. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

....What the hey

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## Jim Garber

> These are called Handel tuners that came from Germany.


My point (and that of others) was that there is no real proof that they were from Germany. I am not even sure why they were called Handel tuners. I am still trying to find further info on the Handel Company of New York which may have manufactured or supplied them to various instrument makers. It is possibl;e that they were imported by the Handel Company, hence the name but I have not heard anyone say for sure.

Jim

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## woodwiz

I'm trying to find out more about the Carl Fischer music company in New York in the 20's, and who their suppliers were. I'll be checking libraries and databases as opportunity allows, and talking to old luthiers over the next few months. I'll keep my eyes open for info about Handel, too. I'm curious, but it may take a few months and I still may get nothing useful.

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## Jim Garber

woodwiz:
Have you contacted anyone at the Carl Fischer store. I think they are still in business in Cooper Square, NY.

I have at least one of their catalogs. What exactly are you looking for?

Jim

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## chinatogalway

Handel is the German word for 'trade' BTW, the city with the name closest to Handel is Handeloh, very likely part of the full name was lost in the process. No Handelsteine but ther IS a Handeloh. Just to add more spice to the pot !

Kieron

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## woodwiz

> woodwiz:
> Have you contacted anyone at the Carl Fischer store. I think they are still in business in Cooper Square, NY.
> 
> I have at least one of their catalogs. What exactly are you looking for?
> 
> Jim


Yes, I've contacted them twice by Email with no reply. They only sell music now, but early in the 20th Century they manufactured and sold all kinds of musical instruments.

I've got a silver mounted violin bow from the 1920's that my Russian luthier calls "wery wery wery nize" and puts a pretty high value on. It is stamped **Carl Fischer N Y ** but has no maker's stamp on it. I'm curious as to who might have made it. 

I have a copy of a few pages from their 1928 catalog that show they handled F Winkler bows, but nothing to indicate who made their "house" brands. So I'm looking for old catalogs and any other references I can find, as time allows, so that I can satisfy my curiosity.

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## Jim Garber

I c hecked last night and i have two Fischer catalogs. I have been in their Cooper Square store a few times. Yes, mostly sheet music now.

I will check my catalogs and can do some scans for you. if you like. Porb bets to PM me.

Jim

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## Darryl Wolfe

This is a very interesting thread. #I particularly like the comment asking who the heck started calling them Handel's in the first place (and why). #I would venture to say that there could be many accepted facts out there that are really myths. #Carry on.

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## Jim Garber

I hope we can get to the bottom of this. Has anyone seen printed reference in any place to the word handel used for these tuners. I need to check my gibson catalogs and see what they say, if anything. If anyone else has access to the catalogs from that period please check.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

I just looked in the 1921 Gibson catalog reprint. They picture the Handel tuners on an A-4, and F-2 and an F-4, but in the description they only refer to the tuners as "finest quality machine-head; onyx-ivoroid buttons."

Of course, these catalogs are notorious for their inaccuracies. Were the Handels last seen on Gibsons around 1918?

Jim

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## Eugene

That date seems about right to me.

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## Jim Garber

Here's what I heard from Mike Holmes of Mugwumps:



> Where he came from I don't know, but the Louis Handel Company was a New York fixture for many years from before the turn of the century, supplying the decorated tuner buttons, among other items, to the industry.


Jim

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## Jim Garber

David Portman (a very knowledgeable collector) says:



> I have heard of the Louis Handel company in NYC for many years and have come to believe they did the inlaid buttons, probably on Waverly tuners. I don't believe they actually did the button inlay work in the traditional manner. It seems to me that they probably "dropped in" the tiny pearl pieces and silver wire into the the soft and pliable, hot button before the button was attached to the metal shaft. This would have been far more efficient. It is also logical to me that they provided custom FB work for the Larsons, D'Angelico, and many others. I'm certain the Larsons didn't do their tree-of-life FB.
> 
> By the way, I have had at least one Martin (1917 00-45) with original Handel tuners and Mike Longworth once told me he had seen 3 or 4 old Martins with them. Of course, S. S. Stewart also put out thousands of his better banjos with friction violin-type Handel tuners.


Jim

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## Django Fret

George Gruhn states: "German-made Handel tuners, which feature wire and pearl inlaid buttons;" on this page that reprints a March 1983 article from Frets:

http://www.gruhn.com/articles/mandofamily.html

Has anyone ever contacted him to see if he might shed some more light on this? It would be interesting to see why he would say that they were German-made.

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## Eugene

I think Jim said something of writing to Gruhn earlier in this thread.

Early in this thread, I noted that there seems to be a great deal of circular references to a German origin without any period documentation. I haven't seen anybody's claim of a German origin accompanied by citation of period documentation.

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## Jim Garber

Walter Carter responded:



> Handel was in business in New York in 1900. I always thought those tuners were German, but maybe not. The guy who would know would be Mike Holmes, who published Mugwumps magazine and has extensive research on early American guitar makers.


'

Jim

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## Jim Garber

More comments from the vintage peanut gallery (semi satirical):



> You are correct that the folklore is, and has always been, that they were imported from Germany. The theory goes that the reason they are not seen on Gibson instruments made after 1918 is because they became impossible to import following WW1, which conflict ran from August 1914 to 1918.  There are those who say that maybe the Handel store, just around the corner, had them in stock from the beginning of the war but ran out of them during 1918. Other say that perhaps the factory that allegedly made them for Handel converted over to war armaments and couldn't make any more mandolin tuners after that -- that all of the little ivoroid buttons with the wire stems and abalone flowers were converted for use in making the Kaiser's vases and shaving cups.  
> 
> Kaiser Wilhelm II, as you know, abdicated his monarchy on Woodrow Wilson's birthday, November 28, 1918. Here is the actual (translated recently by multi-lingual fretted instrument dealers) text of Kaiser Wilhelm II's
> abdication proclamation:
> 
> "I herewith renounce for all time claims to the throne of Prussia and to the German Imperial throne connected therewith. At the same time I release all officials of the German Empire and of Prussia, as well as all officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the navy and of the Prussian army, as well as the troops of the federated states of Germany, from the oath of fidelity which they tendered to me as their Emperor, King and Commander-in-Chief. I expect of them that until the re-establishment of order in the German Empire they shall render assistance to those in actual power in Germany, in protecting the German people from the threatening dangers of anarchy, famine, and foreign rule and, in addition, they will never again make little ivoroid tuning buttons inlaid with our own German-silver, pearl and abalone flowers for use on anything as frivolous as American mandolins." 
> 
> "Proclaimed under our own hand and with the Imperial Seal attached.
> 
> ...


Jim

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## Django Fret

Not sure if this author, Vince Brennan of Philadelphia, would qualify as an expert, but here is an excerpt from his Web site regarding Handel tuners:

http://www.oldmusicproject.com/23JAN2003.html

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## Eugene

This very blurb weas cited earlier in this thread. #The big problems with it are that there is no such town as Handelstein and nobody has seen a "Handel" tuner button made out of bone/ivory. #The buttons were ivoroid (celluloid). Note that oldmusicproject.com does not cite any period documentation.

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## Jim Garber

> Not sure if this author, Vince Brennan of Philadelphia, would qualify as an expert, but here is an excerpt from his Web site regarding Handel tuners


Sorry, djangofret, I think we are going around in circles with this discussion. I would suggest you read the previous posts. This has already been discussed. I am sure Vince is a nice guy but his answers often fall far from the mark and he may be treading water on this one especially.




> These were made in Germany in ONE little village in Saxony, Handelstein.


*Martin replied:* Sounds good with one little problem: there is no village of that name in Saxony or anywhere else in Germany.

My current conclusion is that these were called "Handel" tuners by some folks (not mentioned in catalogs, tho) because they were supplied by the Louis Handel Company of New York who also supplied inlay materials and other parts for musical instruments.

So far, every knowledgeble person I have been in contact with have mentioned that they heard they were from Germany but none know why they heard that. So likely they were supplied by Handel who may or may not have gotten them from Germany. 

Here is another question: has anyone seen European instruments, esp those from Germany of the period with these same tuner buttons? That might give us a clue that they were possibly made there.

Jim

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## glauber

> Originally Posted by  (jgarber @ Jan. 05 2006, 22:37)
> 
> woodwiz:
> Have you contacted anyone at the Carl Fischer store. I think they are still in business in Cooper Square, NY.
> 
> 
> Yes, I've contacted them twice by Email with no reply. They only sell music now, but early in the 20th Century they manufactured and sold all kinds of musical instruments.


Sold, yes. I don't think they actually manufactured anything, they bought instruments, branded and resold them.

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## Jim Garber

Yes, glauber, you are probably correct in that they were retailers of instruments under their own name as was Wurlitzer, Ditson and Bruno, among others.

Jim

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## Eugene

Nothing to do with Handel, but Fischer was fond of exotic names for their house-brand mandolin models, like "Cleopatra." I have no idea who actually built them.

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## Django Fret

> Sorry, djangofret, I think we are going around in circles with this discussion. I would suggest you read the previous posts. This has already been discussed.


Sorry for redundancy Jim, but I sure missed that one earlier in the thread.

If nothing else, the feeling that they were German in origin has been supported over the years by some pretty noteworthy individuals such as Gruhn and Siminoff.

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## Eugene

> Sorry for redundancy Jim, but I sure missed that one earlier in the thread.
> 
> If nothing else, the feeling that they were German in origin has been supported over the years by some pretty noteworthy individuals such as Gruhn and Siminoff.


I'm not Jim, but #...Exactly, but the German-origin story has been supported for a long time by such noteworthies citing each other back and forth without ever referencing records from the period. #That's why I've always been a little suspicious.

The Wandervogel era saw a huge number of guitars and lauten coming out Germany specifically built to emulate an old and rather decorative aesthetic. #Still, I don't recall seeing anything like the "Handel" tuning buttons on the super-abundant German instruments of the period.

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## mrkrishna

This is a way cooler thread than the last big one on these tuners. How is it possible that new info can come up in such a short period of time? Can someone who knows how post the previos threads on this subject from 'history' on this site? Kerry K

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## Greenmando

> This is a way cooler thread than the last big one on these tuners. How is it possible that new info can come up in such a short period of time? Can someone who knows how post the previous threads on this subject from 'history' on this site? Kerry K


Here is the few threads on Handel's. Most only have a few posts, but the last one has 3 pages worth.

Topic: Handel tuners, Ever wonder what a set is worth

Topic: Handel Tuners, How Much Are They Worth?

Topic: Inlaid tuners

Topic: handel tuners, removing handel tuner buttons

Topic: Handel tuners-go get 'em, nice complete set

Topic: Handel Tuners, Any history teachers out there?

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## Jim Garber

> Exactly, but the German-origin story has been supported for a long time by such noteworthies citing each other back and forth without ever referencing records from the period. That's why I've always been a little suspicious.


Then there was the H. L. Mencken Bathtub Hoax. That one is still being cited as the truth even today and it was perpetuated in 1917 as a joke. 

Not sure who started this Handel thing and tho Gruhn might have mentioned in back in 1983, there is no mention that I can find about these tuners in the book Acoustic Guitars. Even his co-author, Walter Carter, states that he heard that they originated in Germany, but is not sure why he knows that.

I have contacted almost everyone I thought who might know the answer and have presented the info here. 

Jim

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## Bob DeVellis

Jim - Hats off to you for some excellent detective work! The New York Handel source sounds as convincing as anything else I've heard thus far. Lets keep on this and see if we can get some more hard facts. Does anyone know when it became a requirement for foreign-made goods to carry a "made in xxx" label? If goods were used as components, as opposed to end products, I'm not even sure that would apply. I've perpetuated the German-origin story (to the extent that anyone listens to my opinion) and would really like to see the record set straight if it's incorrect. Right now, the German-origin version seems on somewhat shakey ground.

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## Django Fret

> Does anyone know when it became a requirement for foreign-made goods to carry a "made in xxx" label?


According to this site:

http://hotdocs.usitc.gov/docs/pubs/332/ES2975.HTM

"The first U.S. marking statute was enacted in 1890. The basic requirement, which has been in effect for more than one hundred years, is that virtually all imported products (or their containers) must be marked with a foreign country of origin."

Not sure if how strongly that would have been enforced, but it looks like there were at least laws on the books during the time these were made.

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## Jim Garber

As bobd noted, it probably doesn't apply to these tuners. In fact, I doubt that these tuners were made anywhere else. A number of folks have indicated thatb they were std Waverlies of the period with the buttons added. Likely the manufacturers bought the buttons from Handel or else Handel installed them and sold them together.

Once again, I would ask anyone if they have seen any European instruments with these tuner buttons. If so, then they might very well be made in Germany. If not, prob made in USA.

Jim

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## Paul Weber

Here are some tuners on a Bohmann bowlback out of Chicago I believe.

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## Eugene

Yes, Bohmann was based in Chicago, and those buttons were pretty common to his instruments that I've seen. I'd love to see more pictures of this instrument, Northstar. I always found Bohmanns's sense of line and aesthetic a little "quirky."

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## Django Fret

> I'd love to see more pictures of this instrument


It's not a pretty sight, but there are more pictures of this one at: 

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/JOSEPH-BOHMANN-HI-GRADE-MANDOLIN-WITH-HANDEL-TUNERS_W0QQitemZ7377476518QQcategoryZ10179QQs
sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/JOSEPH-....iewItem</a>

These are the first ones I've seen that didn't have the vines coming out of a design in the button's center. Would these be an earlier version of the more common buttons, or perhaps from another manufacturer?

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## Jim Garber

That Bohmann would probably predate Gibson's use of the tuners by about 20 years, so likely the design was different or, as you say, a different supplier.


BTW Roger Siminoff also weighted in on this topic and agreed with Mr. Holmes that the tuners were supplied by the Handel Company.

Jim

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## JEStanek

I doubt if a components country of origin for a finished good is labeled. Almost every T-shirt sold in America that is made in China was made from US grown cotton. 

I'm loving this thread. I heard President Filmore's bathtub, the first one installed in the White House, had silver and pearl inlaid temperature knobs.  
Jamie

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## stevem

Recent lawsuit...

GIBSON GUITAR CORPORATION, petitioner,
v.
MEC IMPORT HANDELSGESELLSCHAFT GmbH.
No. 99-1358.
April 17, 2000.

198 F.3d 245.

The case itself makes no mention of tuners. My searches on the company turned up mostly info in German (at least I think it was German!). They do have some sort of ongoing business relationship with Gibson; the suit was regarding a contract between the two. 

Probably nothing, but the company name starts with Handel and ends in schaft (shaft--as in tuner shaft!) Ok, maybe schaft is stretching it. Another possibility though...

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## Duc Vu

Handelsgesellschaft just means trade society or commercial company, according to Babelfish.

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## Jim Garber

Folks: We are talking tuners that were used until about 1918. Thanks for the info, tho.

Jim

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## stevem

Well, there goes my theory. I know they stopped making them back then, Jim. I was only thinking it might have been a company Gibson had a long term relationship with (90 years). It was a real stretch though, I admit. Thanks to the translators. Now, back to threads I know at least a little about...

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## Django Fret

> Well, there goes my theory. I know they stopped making them back then, Jim. I was only thinking it might have been a company Gibson had a long term relationship with (90 years). It was a real stretch though, I admit. Thanks to the translators. Now, back to threads I know at least a little about...


Stevem, don't worry, and it's pretty obvious that nobody on this board has ALL the answers yet...

I see that Benunzio has a couple of early instrument catalog reprints and was wondering if they might provide a clue or two?

1902 Gibson reprint at http://www.bernunzio.com/paper.php?sku=R-M-163

1912 Vega reprint at http://www.bernunzio.com/paper.php?sku=R-M-204

Has anyone seen these reprints and any references to what they might call the high end tuners for these two manufacturers in that era? #

There is a picture and description of the 1902 Gibson Artist F-2 (no inlaid tuners even at $132.98) from the 1902 catalog at:

http://www.themomi.org/museum/articl...02catalog.html

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## Jim M.

I was watching Antiques Roadshow last night, and someone brought out a Handel lamp from the early 1900's. An American company that made lamps and other decorative items. They are well crafted, and it piqued my interest, so I did a little search. Here's an excerpt from some history:

"They specialized in high quality reverse painted lamp shades and at the time were generally considered a less expensive alternative to the Tiffany lamp popularized by Louis Comfort Tiffany. They also made leaded glass shades similar to Tiffany as well as vases, humidor boxes and other decorative objects."

Here's the link to some more: Handel History

No mention of mandolin tuners, but it sure looks like they had all the ingredients at hand.

[EDIT: I just looked back to the first page, and noticed that Handel in Connecticut was mentioned twice already. Oh well, at least I'll leave the link.]

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## Scott Tichenor

In light of the beautiful Handel style tuners being made by Mike Blohm, I thought it worthy of posting to this thread which has been silent for awhile to see if any new information has come to light?

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I sold a Bohmann a while back with these tuners.

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## Jim Garber

Some further information from another thread, courtesy of thistle3585:



> Jgarber,
> I feel like we're splitting this thread, but I have been doing some research on the Handel company. The dates for the Handel company, and some of the following info, came from a family member. Louis Handel cut pearl inlay and provided engraving services to several instrument companies.  Louis Sr. owned the company from 1915 to about 1946. Louis Jr. was born in 1918, so he would not have been involved during the period that the tuners were made. Prior to 1915, it seems that Louis Handel was a machinist of some sort. He is listed as a Metal sawyer in a Brooklyn directory right at the turn of the century. The earliest ornate tuner I had found on a production instrument was 1901. I wonder if the tuners you posted were replacement tuners. 
> I think Darryl, F5Journal, once mentioned that he questioned whether Handel actually made those tuners. Personally, I am beginning to believe that Handel didn't have anything to do with the tuners. I think that the instrument manufacturers bought the tuners seperate from the buttons. There seems to be too many differences in the construction of the tuners that have the decorative buttons. There may be some validity, based on the dates that they appear on instruments, to the part of the story of the buttons being imported and the war possibly interuppting that supply line. I don't think the Handel Company was involved with their manufacture. I wonder if Handel started supplying pearl buttons once the ornate ones were no longer available which is where the connection was made.


Interesting... I have heard that Handel supplied some of the inlay materials for the Larson instruments. I was always under the impression that these Handel tuner buttons were merely sold by Handel as part of their line of products and were either imported or made in the US for them. There is some evidence that the tuners were actually Waverlys.

Jim

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## thistle3585

I had heard that also about Waverlies, but Waverly wasn't established until 1918. The Handel tuners, yes I will still call them that, had been discontinued around that same time. I have been trying to develop a list of builders that have used them, so if you know of any others than Gibson, Bohmann and Martin please let me know. I have only found one photo of a Larson Brothers(Stahl) mandolin with the tuners on them. So, I don't know if they were installed aftermarket or that all the other photos had replacement tuners on them.

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## Spruce

> _"In light of the beautiful Handel style tuners being made by Mike Blohm..."_


Here's a shot of a Schneider F4 loaded with Mike's buttons...
Pretty cool...

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## Paul Hostetter

An instrument dealer from NYC, whose name shall not be uttered, once showed me a quart jar full of Händel buttons, new-old stock, so to speak - never used - and swore they came from Japan, and were pressed onto gears by various makers in the US. I'm not sure how he knew they were from Japan. This guy also loves to call rosewood Circassian walnut.

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## thistle3585

There is a very, very slim chance that they came from Japan, but there is a chance. The first celluloid factory was built in Japan in 1908, well after the introduction of the tuners. They primarily made doll heads using a blow molding process. Japan didn't really come online as a major celluloid player until the 20's.  I would feel confident in saying they didn't come from Japan just based on the level of their technology at the time.

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## danb

More Bohmann handels:

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