# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Loar forgery on eBay?

## harmonist34

Serial number says it should be an L5 guitar. Maybe it got washed in warm water and shrunk?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123

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## Ed Goist

Current bid $2,247...It's impossible to fool the market.

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## 55bar

It's a shame this is the first thing you see in the ad, I guess if he'd written "loar fake" he may not have gotten as many bidders.

"Gibson F-5 Master Model Vintage Mandolin 1924 Very Nice Player Loar Low Reserve"               

The guy seems pretty genuine and does say he cannot guarantee that this is a loar or even a genuine vintage gibson, just annoys me that its done in the "small print". 

Don't think I'd have the nerve to advertise something with that title as there are (thankfully) way too many experts.

Looks nice though!

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## houseworker

Already being discussed in this thread.

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## houseworker

And here.

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## barney 59

He's lying  --of course he KNOWS it's not a real Loar--he's just building in some plausible deny-ability and hoping he catches a big fish.  "Yikes!" he says take an instrument with a potential 6 figure value to an expert to find out for sure --nah! he's just going to put it up on ebay for, you know,whatever-------

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OldGus

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## houseworker

> Current bid $2,247...It's impossible to fool the market.


$7,200 with four days and eight hours to go.  Maybe you can...

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## barney 59

It's hard to imagine that someone is bidding in that range without doing homework which would include an internet search that would uncover these threads talking about it.  I could see gambling some largish money on something that I wasn't completely sure was a valuable instrument but I would have to be pretty darn sure that it was. A Gibson mandolin is a pretty defined thing and not particularly hard to figure out ----not something like an unmarked and potentially one off Larson guitar.

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Ed Goist

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## houseworker

There's only two bidders but it's gone up another $800.

Knowing it's a fake, one could of course win it at $150,000, settle with PayPal, and then demand a full refund (or negotiate a low price with the seller).  The seller's disclaimer is against eBay rules (and the listing has been reported, for what that's worth).  If it's agreed as a fake, PayPal won't ask you to return it, just destroy it, so there's pressure on the seller to agree a sensible price.

Even if I wanted it, I wouldn't bid on that sort of nonsensical listing.

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## FLATROCK HILL

It's at 9k+ now. If I had that kind of dough to toss around, I think I'd rather snag that Andy Statman owned Kimble.

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Ed Goist, 

Marty Jacobson

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## Ken Waltham

I cannot believe this. Are these "planted" bids???  BTW, I love the back on that Kimble!
Ken

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## houseworker

They look to be genuine, remarkable as it might seem.  Even if you take the view that it's a fine sounding mandolin, it's surely been bid up beyond what it's worth.

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## f5loar

It's up to the price of a REAL Gibson F5 now.  Ebay use to allow you to contact bidders but they stopped that.  Too bad as these bidders need a wake up call.

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## almeriastrings

The seller is playing with fire. Paypal and forgeries do not mix..

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## f5loar

But does he get away with it when he pleads the "Sgt Shultz" defense "I know nothing" ?  He pretty much spells out "buyer beware of what I have told you here" or as I like to say "A fool and their money will soon be parted".

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## MikeEdgerton

Let's give Google a fighting chance to find this thread:

The interior label is signed by Lloyd Loar, Acoustic Engineer, and dated March 31, 1924. The other label is noted F-5 and serial number 80263.

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## houseworker

> But does he get away with it when he pleads the "Sgt Shultz" defense "I know nothing" ?  He pretty much spells out "buyer beware of what I have told you here" or as I like to say "A fool and their money will soon be parted".


No he doesn't.  eBay and PayPal rules specifically forbid authenticity disclaimers and the sale of forgeries.  PayPal do not permit the return of forgeries to the seller, but require an authenticated destruction.  There was a well publicised case with a violin a year or two back.

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## MikeEdgerton

The problem is that eBay stands to make a nice chunk of change on an expensive item. It's really hard to get them to stop an auction with this much money on the line.

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## Scott Tichenor

> Let's give Google a fighting chance to find this thread:
> 
> The interior label is signed by Lloyd Loar, Acoustic Engineer, and dated March 31, 1924. The other label is noted F-5 and serial number 80263.


Well that's just crazy, Mike.

If someone out of these four threads would have listed a title structured with meaning, like: "Loar forgery/fake Serial #80263" the community would have a permanent solid record everyone can find for posterity when it inevitably comes up for sale the rest of its life. You know, information that has value. That's why there's no use in merging any of these threads. Four messes combined don't improve the quality a bit.

But I digress.

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houseworker

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## P.D. Kirby

Did anyone check to see if the sellers name is Chum Lee?

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## 55bar

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=qnlsd...%3DqnlsdePuzDE

Interesting comment on this clip

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## almeriastrings

> No he doesn't.  eBay and PayPal rules specifically forbid authenticity disclaimers and the sale of forgeries.  PayPal do not permit the return of forgeries to the seller, but require an authenticated destruction.  There was a well publicised case with a violin a year or two back.


I also know of a case with another F5 fake mandolin.

The instrument was destroyed. Full refund made by Paypal to buyer. Seller ended up with no mandolin and no $$$.

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## houseworker

> http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=qnlsd...%3DqnlsdePuzDE
> 
> Interesting comment on this clip


This clip? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnlsdePuzDE

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## Ed Goist

> Current bid $2,247...It's impossible to fool the market.


Now an inexplicable and unforgivable $9,225.
I am speechless and stand corrected...I guess you really can _"fool some of the people all of the time"_.
It appears people really are getting dumber.
Hoping now this scam doesn't victimize a decent, unknowing buyer.

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## 55bar

Yeah that clip "Brandon needs Jesus he's a scammer"

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## Mike Crocker

What's to stop sellers from driving up the bids themselves? This stuff stinks of all kinds of dishonesty. 

Thanks goodness for anyone who cries foul, like the good old mandolin Cafe.

Peace.

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## houseworker

> Now an inexplicable and unforgivable $9,225.
> I am speechless and stand corrected...I guess you really can _"fool some of the people all of the time"_.
> It appears people really are getting dumber.


Not necessarily.  The bidders may know it's a fake, and look to recover the cost from PayPal.  Play their cards right, and they could end up with an interesting mandolin for very little.

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## Ed Goist

> Not necessarily.  The bidders may know it's a fake, and look to recover the cost from PayPal.  Play their cards right, and they could end up with an interesting mandolin for very little.


Wouldn't this be a huge risk?
The bidder will need to actually pay in order to get the mandolin, and then bank on being able to get a partial refund or refund and keep the mandolin, right?
Or am I missing something?
I'll admit to being an ebay novice, whose handful of ebay transactions, as a buyer and as a seller, have gone incredibly smoothly. [_He said, as he knocked firmly on the wooden end table next to his easy chair._]

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## houseworker

> Wouldn't this be a huge risk?
> The bidder will need to actually pay in order to get the mandolin, and then bank on being able to get a partial refund or refund and keep the mandolin, right?[/I]]


No great problem providing the buyer uses PayPal.

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Ed Goist

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## Jim Garber

Ended!!




> This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available.

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## Scott Tichenor

> Ended!!


Has not ended: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111103588009

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## Beanzy

If you highlight the automated bids you get a clearer picture of how the bids are working. 8***6 seems to be one of the inflator accounts  along with l***h. Unfortunately they seem to have pulled what could be a genuine bidder r***s but it could be another shill account.
Is it possible to bid and withdraw the bid because you become aware it is a fake?

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## houseworker

> Is it possible to bid and withdraw the bid because you become aware it is a fake?


Yes

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## MojoMando

The mando in question has been removed by eBay:

"This listing (111103588009) has been removed, or this item is not available."

When you get the above message and the item has simultaneously vaporized* from eBay it means that eBay, not the seller has pulled it. 

*This item can no longer be found by a keyword search AND is has vanished from my "Watched Items" List. A seller can't make that happen, only eBay can.

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## Gary Hedrick

Yep I couldn't find it either.....maybe all the ebay reporting that all of us did worked......YEAH!!!!

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## Scott Tichenor

OK, there are two threads on this appears. 

Info on it resurfacing again here:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...=1#post1199365

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## Scott Tichenor

Closing this thread. 

Please discuss this within this existing thread which contains an appropriate title that can be searched.

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## Scott Tichenor

Information from the latest Craig's List posting by our dishonest seller:

Up for sale is my 1924 Gibson F-5 Master Model Mandolin. It was my grandfather's. It has a lot of wear from being played a lot over 80 years, but is very solid and plays well. It is very loud. All original, except the tuners which he replaced, but they're old too. Label is dated March 31, 1924. There appears to be a repair on the headstock scroll, but it is very solid. It is also missing two frets. No cracks or breaks, just lots of playing wear. It comes with newer strings. I restrung it in hopes of learning it, but just never have had the time which is why I'm selling it. It doesn't come with a case, but if you need one I can probably get you one.

I am willing to ship it, but I will only do so if the transaction is done through PayPal. Otherwise, I will accept cash or a cashier's check upon pick up.

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