# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Paisiello score

## Daedalus

I'm trying to get hold of the sheet music / score for Paisiello's mandolin concerto in E flat major. #I heard it on the radio and then bought a copy on CD, so presume that the music must be out there somewhere for others to have recorded it.

My local music shop couldn't get it, neither could Chappell's of Bond Street (London) - one of the main sheet music suppliers in the UK. #They suggested Westminster music library, who didn't have it, but in turn suggested United Music Publishers, who also didn't have it. #Their suggestion was to contact Ricordi as they seemed to be the publishers for most things Paisiello. #They haven't got back to me yet, so I wondered if anyone out there had a copy or could confirm who the publisher is.

Thanks,

David

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## Plamen Ivanov

Hello David and welcome on Board!

Are you talking about the "Magic of the Mandolin" CD (Claudio Scimone, Solisti Veneti and Ugo Orlandi on the mandolin)? 

The sheet music is available here.

Direct link

Good luck!
Plamen

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## an uncalloused fingertip

That is a memorable CD. I recently purchased a CD with five Neopolitan mandolin concertos - with Dorina Frati - but the arrangement isn't as neat as the Magic CD. On the Frati version, the violins are louder, and the mandolin tone is more open (maybe even jangly). On Magic, the mandolin tone has a crisper chirp to it, and the strings are more subdued, humbled, kept in place (for a time). The same label makes another mandolin disk with Vivaldi's works for the instrument (and soprano lute - 93), but the only addition to the three concertos on the Magic album is the concerto for multiple instruments (violin, cello, a pair of mandolins, and so on). The mandolin isn't really the central instrument on the last piece - and it wasn't meant to be. I was really impressed with the Magic CD - so much that I eventually had to replace it when the first one started skipping here and there. I wish I could find the Vivaldi disk that got me interested in the mandolin in the first place. It cost me about five dollars seven years ago and had concertos for just about everything: two violins, violin and oboe, bassoon, cello, and three concertos for the mandolin. I liked Antonio from the beginning, so it was a surprise to me when I heard these beautiful little lutes in action. If it I didn't hear those Vivaldi concertos, I wouldn't have a mandolin now. Yes, I know that some say they all sound the same after a while, yet they are still so pleasing to listen to and play.

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## Eugene

Erato's The Magic of the Mandoline is a compilation of earlier recordings, including 3/4 of the Vivaldi disc to which you refer, Mr. fingertip. #I sincerely do not believe Vivaldi's RV 93 was for any kind of soprano lute. #I don't know what type of lute Vivaldi had in mind in prescribing "leuto", but I personally am much happier hearing the solo part an octave lower than notated in common, guitar-like shorthand, especially hearing the ensemble originally indicated by Vivaldi, lacking violas. #For as good a speculation as any, see:

Liefeld, E. 2002/2003. Pondering Vivaldi's Leuto. Lute Society of America Quarterly, 28(1):4-8.

Of course, the mandolin ("mandolino") for which Vivaldi did write was much more like a soprano lute than a modern mandolin and probably played with the fingers more often than not (i.e., not the Neapolitan type wielded so expertly by Orlandi on his Vivaldi recordings).

My favorite Frati recordings are on early instruments: Ensemble Baschenis' The Early Mandolin vols. 1 & 2 and her disc of Boni sonatas.

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## Daedalus

Many thanks to Plamen for his direct link to a German website selling both the individual parts and the score. After so much frustration I now have the mandolin part on order - at least I think I do - my German's not too hot!

Yes, the CD I bought was "the Magic of the Mandoline" - don't know where the extra "e" comes from (guess maybe it's Italian for mandolin).

It was the slow movement I heard on the radio and thought so haunting, so now I get a chance to try it out, though I expect my ambition is far in advance of my ability... I got to grade 7 on the violin and have only just taken up playing the mandolin. Tuning and finger positions are identical, hence my choice of instrument, but a slippy bowlback is a different kettle of fish to a fiddle clamped under your chin! Also the whole plectrum thing is going to take some getting used to.

I've ambitions to make an instrument too, but that will have to wait 'til I've got some more free time.

David

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## Eugene

> Yes, the CD I bought was "the Magic of the Mandoline" - don't know where the extra "e" comes from (guess maybe it's Italian for mandolin).


French (in this case) and German. Early in the "golden era" (ca. 1890), English sources also used "mandoline." Italian is "mandolino."

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## Plamen Ivanov

> Yes, the CD I bought was "the Magic of the Mandoline" - don't know where the extra "e" comes from (guess maybe it's Italian for mandolin).


I have been also wondering about that. I`m not good in Italian, but I doubt the extra "e" has something to do with the Italian language. I might be wrong. Hope some of the Italian speaking fellows will confirm or refute this.

I bought my CD from Germany loooong ago and it is in German: "Zauber der Mandoline", which is OK. I think, I have seen the same CD also in French. So, may be it`s a technical mistake or something...

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## Plamen Ivanov

I was typing and I didn`t see Eugene`s reply. Yes, that is.

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## an uncalloused fingertip

> Mr. fingertip. #I sincerely do not believe Vivaldi's RV 93 was for any kind of soprano lute. #


RV 93 WAS originally written for the soprano lute. Many recordings of this piece make a note of it when they refer to the original title of the concerto. It is also listed this way when you go to a music library and access the volumes of Vivaldi's music. The concertos for solo and double mandolins were originally composed for that instrument, and they are appropriately titled ... for the mandolin.

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## Eugene

> RV 93 WAS originally written for the soprano lute. Many recordings of this piece make a note of it when they refer to the original title of the concerto. It is also listed this way when you go to a music library and access the volumes of Vivaldi's music. The concertos for solo and double mandolins were originally composed for that instrument, and they are appropriately titled ... for the mandolin.


Sorry if I caused any offense, uncalloused. #I certainly did not intend to do so.

The matter of Vivaldi's "leuto" is by no means a settled issue. #In spite of CD liner notes, if you look into the reference I offered (or if Eric himself happens by to offer elucidation), you'll see what I mean. #The score of RV 93 only calls for "leuto" without adjective. #The solo line in RV 93 is notated in the soprano range without bass notes; however, it is much less common to actually play this work in the soprano range than it is to assume it was written in violinist's shorthand for some form of more tenor-voiced lute and perform the work an octave lower than notated on guitar, archlute, etc. #Such shorthand is still the _modus operandi_ of guitar composers and was not uncommon to non-lutenists writing for lute. #It's mostly only mandolinists who argue that RV 93 and Vivaldi's trios for "leuto" were for a mandolin or some other soprano instrument. #Paul O'Dette was a soprano "leuto" advocate, recording the lute works that way (on 6-course mandolino) many years ago; even he has recanted that position and plays the works to specify "leuto" on a big and bassy archlute now.

I definitely believe there was a reason that Vivaldi differentiated between "mandolino" and "leuto." #The most common soprano lute-like thing in Italy at the time was a 5- or 6-course thing called "mandolino" (Italian for "mandolin") or "mandola" (before the modern, Neapolitan-ized or Gibson-ized definition of the term) with a fixed, lute-like, tie-block bridge and tuned mostly or wholly in fourths (commonly [g]-b-e'-a'-d"-g"); click here to see mine. #This type is certainly what Vivaldi intended in writing for "mandolino" given that the thing modern players would recognize as a mandolin didn't appear in Naples until around the time of Vivaldi's death in Vienna (after a recent move from Venice). #The earliest dated, extant instrument of the Neapolitan family (i.e., tuned in fifths like the modern instrument) is a large mandola by a Vinaccia (I forget which Vinaccia without consulting references...it may be Gaetano [it is; I checked now]) dated 1744, but Morey (1993) has placed serious doubt on the authenticity of that date. #Mandolins from just after that date abound. #The first literature for Neapolitan-type mandolins did not appear until the 1760s.

Here is a brief list of a few common terms for historic mandolin types. Here is a brief list of relevant reference.

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## etbarbaric

Well... here I am... happening by... :-)

Eugene has managed to summarize a rather impressive amount of mandolin history in two paragraphs!!!

In any case, Eugene is right in that it is not yet proven what instrument Vivaldi intended by "leuto". Nonetheless, there is now broad consensus around that instrument (or instruments) being pitched an octave lower than Vivaldi's written treble-clef notation. This is still common practice as with the modern guitar. To play these pieces (or hear them... or even look at the scores), its clear that merely doubling the violin parts (as the leuto part often does) at the upper octave makes very little musical sense. An instrument pitched in the tenor range provides just the pitches needed for the music to balance and make sense. I believe the arguments for a "soprano lute" or some form of mandolin for these works have mostly fallen by the wayside.

My article (referenced above) evaluated the relatively little-known Mandora (aka gallichone and a host of similar names) as Vivaldi's leuto. My reason for this choice was simple, timing and geography. It is fairly well known that Vivaldi wrote the two trios (RV82, and RV85) and one chamber concerto (RV93) for leuto while he was in Prague circa 1730-31 (see Talbot's "Vivaldi"). These are all three small chamber pieces, and the "concerto" in this case is really for a quartet of single instruments, not the modern chamber orchestra setting we usually hear today (the manuscript calls for exactly "2 violini, Leuto, e Basso"). 

These three simple pieces all bear a dedication to the Bohemian Count Johann Joseph von Wrtby, and Vivaldi scholars have even identifed the paper they are written on as being of "central-European provinance". The larger mandora (pitched commonly in D or E... but also A) was very common in Bohemia at the time, and was a very common foil for the Bohemian nobility (of which Count Wrtby was a proud member).  There are lots of paintings with the Bohemian nobility of the time posing with their mandoras. (see Pietro Prosser's dissertation for details).

As it happens, these works fall rather naturally onto an instrument tuned with guitar intervals and pitches (such as the mandora/gallichone). This is attested to by the fact that these pieces are often played today on the guitar (one will often find RV93 performed and recorded on modern classical guitar... with the music even referred to as "Vivaldi's Guitar Concerto"). Assuming a mandora in D (rather than E) enables some particularly interesting ideomatic things to happen with RV93.

The other Vivaldi piece that mentions Leuto is the later "Concerto Grosso" for Leuto and Viola d'Amore (RV540). This piece is quite different than the first three, and it was written much later in 1740 and performed (on March 21, 1740) at the Pieta' in Venice (for Fredrick Christian, the son of the King of Poland and the Prince Elector of Saxony). Here, in addition to the mandora (flavors of which were, after all, made and known in Italy at the time), the Germanic baroque lute is another distinct possibility for the Leuto. Many have called attention to the fact that the great baroque lutenist Sylvius Leopold Weiss was in the employ of the Prince Elector of Saxony at the time at his court at Dresden, and its tempting to imagine that these leuto parts may well have fallen under his immortal fingers. Paul O'dette recorded this piece on Baroque lute, and I personally find this combination quite convincing.

In the case of RV540, its clear that we are dealing with a lower-pitched instrument since Vivaldi directs the Leuto player to play with the basso [continuo] when they are not playing solo parts. The solo parts are again written in the treble clef. The resources of a 13-course baroque lute seem like considerable overkill for the simpler parts of the earlier Bohemian compositions.

Whether one instrument or two, I think its quite possible that Vivaldi used "leuto" in a generic sense... He clearly knew what he meant, his customer knew what he meant... he had no idea that we'd be scrambling over it hundreds of years later expecting consistency. Vivaldi, as a vigorous perveyor of his own wares, also knew his customer!

Best,

Eric

ps - The other common solution proposed for Vivaldi's "leuto" is the archlute in G. Again, this seems like rather massive overkill for most of these simple parts. In any case, its worth noting that removing the top course from an archlute in G results directly in a Mandora (guitar intervals, remember) in D. So roughly the same ideomatic arguments can be made.

pps - There is other evidence tying the mandora to the term "leuto"... but I'll leave that for now as I've prattled on long enough...

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## Arto

"It was the slow movement I heard on the radio and thought so haunting..."

I couldn´t agree more. The piece and this recording of it are so beautiful... especially the mandolin solo and arpeggios, followed by short section on the violins in the end of the slow part.


"French (in this case) and German. #Early in the "golden era" (ca. 1890), English sources also used "mandoline." #Italian is "mandolino."

Maybe we should start collecting the word "mandolin" in different languages? I´ll start: ´bandolim´ in Portuguese; ´mandoliini´ in Finnish.

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## vkioulaphides

Ehm... _mandolino_ in Greek, too.  

Arto, how are you, my friend? Long time, no see... I hope you are well. I am at least *pretending* to be more free now than before but, alas, the universe, the world, and specifically the noble field of arts management claims otherwise.  

Cheers,

Victor

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## Arto

Oh, thank you so much, Victor! (And thanks to Plamen - you know for what!)

I´m fine, thanks. I must confess I have been unfaithful to Our Cause during the autumn, after having got a digital piano... You know, it IS easier to play Bach´s fugas on that one, than on mandolin... but I WILL learn to play 1st violin sonata Fuga on mandolin, too! I WILL!

Lately I have been again playing more mandolin, too. As Jim (if I remember right) once wrote, it´s the privilege and pleasure of the amateur to be able to play many instruments badly... I love that idea! I have even fumbled with my charango (greetings to Bill!)

Thanks, friends, for being there.
Arto

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Arto,

Good to see you back here and read that thou art are fine . 

And mandolin in the Dutch language is - like in French and German - written as "mandoline".


Cheers,

Alex

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## an uncalloused fingertip

etbarbaric:

It seems like our mandolin concertos belong to the guitar as much (or maybe more) than the four-course mandolin of Naples. The great thing about these discussions is that it is makes clear that the instruments we are discussing are all plucked and regarded differently than those who affectionately refer to the mandolin a "violin with frets". I've noticed an urge by some (including myself) to establish a link between the mandolin and violin. It is a rather attractive connection, and it makes the Vivaldi instrumentation issue even more appealing. Personally, I still am trying to change the natural habit of letting my neck rest in the pit of my hand, and letting the thumb ride around the neck and above level of the fingerboard - like a fiddler. Learning to finger the mandolin was to me - in part - a step closer to learning how to play the violin. And with regards to Vivaldi, my early assumption was that his mandolin pieces were meant for a GDAE instrument; it is neat to envision Antonio thinking about the mandolin along the same lines as a violin concerto - albeit with a more subdued string section.
Obviously it is not the case, but then again - many would like to think of Bach behind a strong, deep, grande fortepiano, which obviously wasn't around during his time (or even for Mozart or Beethoven). 

Reading lute and then guitar literature, it seems that - prior to the first quarter of the Nineteenth Century - strings were usually plucked with the fleshy part of the fingertips ... and not the ends of fingernails. With this in mind, I am trying to picture higher tuned strings with bare fingers. During Vivaldi's time, all plucked instruments had courses (even the guitar). Using a plectum must have been considered vulgar or crude. To this day, how many Arabs would use such a thing to play the Oud?

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## etbarbaric

Uncalloused (feel free to introduce yourself eh? :-)):

Well, I'm not sure I grok everything you've set forth, but I think I agree with you in that its always tempting (and perhaps natural) to see things through the lens of what we know. If we're familiar with the sound of a stretch Steinway, an original 18th century fortepiano sounds very strange indeed. Yet hearing an original fortepiano in ensemble, one immediately understands how well it blends with other instruments (without dominating) and adds its own special character. Bigger and louder (and newer) is not always better. 

I too once performed Vivaldi on a GDAE Neapolitan mandolin (20+ years ago or so) and it certainly works. But now we understand that these works were meant for the mandolino (as Eugene points out above) and playing the Vivaldi mandolino pieces (not the leuto pieces) on a properly configured mandolino opens many interesting doors. These instruements have similar names... but they are completely different animals.

I do indeed play the mandolino finger-style, and I do use short nails. In fact, the use of nails is fairly well accepted on lutes and other plucked instruments back as far as the late Renaissance. In any case, both flesh and nail are usually involved to some extent. This topic continues as one of the great debates in certain circles.

As for the plectra, well, that's another big topic that has been dealt with here before under different headings. Various different types of plectra were used on a wide variety of plucked instruments (including the mandolino and its kin) at various times.

We can never know everthing... but we learn a little more all the time.

Best,

Eric

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## Jim Garber

Whew! At this point I just sit back and enjoy the back and forth of this discussion. Excellent! Keep it up folks!

Jim

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## Eugene

> ...Yet hearing an original fortepiano in ensemble, one immediately understands how well it blends with other instruments (without dominating) and adds its own special character. Bigger and louder (and newer) is not always better.


That was a great time, when functional duos for guitar and piano were generated in reams.




> I do indeed play the mandolino finger-style, and I do use short nails. In fact, the use of nails is fairly well accepted on lutes and other plucked instruments back as far as the late Renaissance. In any case, both flesh and nail are usually involved to some extent. This topic continues as one of the great debates in certain circles.


Even though early-music purists will make fun of me and whisper scornfully behind my back, I try to approach nail issues with a bit of practicality. I prefer a more "fleshy" sound on early strings (mandolino included), but if I'm ever paid to play, it usually involves modern classical guitar, fingernails and all. I keep my _p_ through _m_ nails tapered strongly shorter on the attack side to allow the use of little or no nail on early plucked strings (the strong curl of my _a_ and _c_ nails doesn't allow such a taper, but those fingers don't often come into play in most efforts on early strings).

Another relatively light and groovy rococo-era concerto for Neapolitan mandolin I really like (and only know through Orlandi's recording on Koch outside written reference) is that by the nebulous "Cantone"; its slow movement is really nice. A late one for 6-course mandolino in fourths (and that I've only heard played on modern Neapolitan) that is a bit more substantial is Giovanni/Johann Hoffman's. I like the Hoffman concerto better than the Hummel.

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## etbarbaric

Eugene's point WRT the guitar and fortepiano is excellent. We once had a visiting guitarist and his accompanist, who were quite used to playing on a fortepiano, play here. There was, of course no fortepiano to be found... and the concert was rather aweful as the poor guitarist stuggled to compete with the booming modern piano with his lovely 19th-century guitar.

Since we're talking manicures... I solve the nails/no nails issue by playing thumb-under on Renaissance lute/guitar and thumb-out on mandolino. There are, of course, those who do everything well with no nails. Get a look at Nigel North's nails some time... they don't exist... yet he projects like a mad man.

Eric

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## Plamen Ivanov

> Whew! At this point I just sit back and enjoy the back and forth of this discussion. Excellent! Keep it up folks!
> 
> Jim


The same with me! Jim, should we buy tickets?!  

Bulgarian: "mandolina" (мандолина)

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## Plamen Ivanov

As far as the message board doesn`t accept the Cyrillic alphabet, here is a picture with the writing:

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Eugene,

Can you be a bit more precise about Hoffman's Mandolin concerto in what you mean by [QUOTE - Jan. 20 2006, 23:33)] _"one for 6-course mandolino in fourths"?_


Thanks,

Alex

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## Eugene

Sorry, I actually can't...other than I'm certain it was not intended for a modern barockmandoline with a theorbo-sized soundbox. I wouldn't care to speculate whether he favored courses of single or double strings without seeing a picture of him plying his trade or reading period text to provide specific evidence. If you have more solid evidence, Alex, I'm always happy to read your input.

Nigel North will be playing in Ohio this spring. I'm looking forward to it.

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## an uncalloused fingertip

> Uncalloused (feel free to introduce yourself eh? #:-)):
> 
> Well, I'm not sure I grok everything you've set forth, but I think I agree with you in that its always tempting (and perhaps natural) to see things through the lens of what we know. #If we're familiar with the sound of a stretch Steinway, an original 18th century fortepiano sounds very strange indeed. #Yet hearing an original fortepiano in ensemble, one immediately understands how well it blends with other instruments (without dominating) and adds its own special character. #Bigger and louder (and newer) is not always better. #
> 
> I too once performed Vivaldi on a GDAE Neapolitan mandolin (20+ years ago or so) and it certainly works. #But now we understand that these works were meant for the mandolino (as Eugene points out above).


Eric,

I know what an eighteenth century piano sounds like. The point of my statement was not to project a narrow-minded appreciation of baroque performance but to imagine what Bach might have thought/done with the later instrument. As applied to Vivaldi, I thought it would have been neat if he wrote the mandolin concertos for a GDAE (Baroque pitch) plucked instrument - an instrument tuned the same as his chosen instrument, the violin. And yes, it would have been nice to think of Vivaldi holding a four-course. Or Bach! 

Ultimately, performers only have a general idea what baroque music sounded like. They have the notes of course, but those usually served as a framework with a lot of room for other regional ornaments. It seems to me that some like to think they KNOW what it sounded like, but there are a lot of performance controversies from that era that remain unresolved. 

We know what a Strad sounds like today, but how did it really sound three hundred years ago, before it matured? When the string tension was lower, the neck set at a different angle, the instrument held differently, and so on. Maybe the music would actually be more "authentic" if violinists were using newly crafted, baroque-style violins instead of relics that have been torn apart and updated several times over the centuries. Maybe the tone we enjoy today from period instruments doesn't accurately portray the qualities of a much younger instrument. 

Gene (Yes ... another Gene)

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## etbarbaric

Hi Gene, nice to (virtually) meet you.

We agree in that we can never truly know how close we are getting to historically-informed practice, but I don't think that means that we shouldn't try and learn along the way. I'm sure I commit many anachronisms of which I am simply unaware... it doesn't keep me up at night. Each assumption we make takes us on a certain path. Nonetheless, we can follow the original instruments, what we know of regional variations, and try to put composer's music in context, both geographically and chronologically. I'm well aware of the fights that have taken place in early music circles over some of these extremes (ornament, for example), and I'd certainly not like to see us friendly mando folk stoop to that level. We are all friends here.

At the same time, I'd like not to see the rich variety of historical instruments (mando*) and their hugely varied music become lost to some modern genericism based on fantasy and proveably false assumptions. There, I said it... :-) I have to say that I personally no longer have any interest in hearing Vivaldi on four courses (in fifths, that is). That is a perspective that has been thoroughly explored and recorded on the modern Neapolitan instrument. The vastly under-represented perspective is to hear Vivaldi played on a mandolino in fourths played with the fingers. 

We also need to give credit to composers for knowing available instruments and their capabilities. There are lots of contemporary quotes that describe the girls of the Pieta' where Vivaldi was employed as truly remarkable performers on a monsterous range of instruments, large and small (mandolino to theorbo and all points in between). By all accounts, Vivaldi was a true master of his domain. By his own claims and other's accounts, he could meet someone one day, and deliver 3 or 4 sonatas the next... on the instruments of their choosing. Ca-ching, money in the pocket! 

Ironically, true 18th century mandolin music for the Neapolitan mandolin is also hugely under-represented in recordings (IMHO). I certainly think there is room for more Leone, Denis, Fouchetti, etc. on historically correct instruments (many of which survive in unaltered condition) with historically-appropriate techniques (which fortunatly were written down by a host of ex-patriot Italians in France). There's always room for interpretation, but that's what makes it interesting. In the end, the ears decide.

I agree with your comments on the violin. I was originally a violinist years ago. You will find others here. Our own Richard Walz is an active and accomplished professional violinist and member of the Orchestra of the 18th Century. I own and play both modern "Baroque" violin reconstrutions, as well as earlier instruments that had their necks lengthened and angled, bass bars altered, etc. With the notable exception of Yo Yo Ma (who had the testicular fortitued to convert J. Dupree's Davidoff Strad back to Baroque configuration), most modern classical music superstars have little time for historically-informed performance practice. As someone recently said to me... it would get in the way of their hard-won virtuosity. Reason enough, I'm sure, when its one's livelihood.

But there are new pioneers building their own careers on different footing. If you like Vivaldi, check out Guiliano Carmignola and the Venice Baroque Orchestra... Rock and Roll to my ears... I almost drove off the road the first time I heard this guy on the radio...

Best,

Eric

ps - I play Hoffmann on a copy of Alex' Milanese mandolin with a cherry-wood plectrum that he made. I take *no* chances! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

pps - I own multiple Wendy/Walter Carlos recordings... so I go both ways... well... not like Wendy, that is... Oh bother! :-)

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## Eugene

Carmignola's recordings are mighty cool. #...And I still like Il Giardino Armonico on mandolini and lutes in spite of the plectra applied to the former. #Biondi's recordings (again with plectra) of Vivaldi's mandolin works were a noble effort too, but it seems to me he had difficulty striking a balance of the plucked and the bowed strings in orchestral setting (albeit in a reduced baroque sense).

Of all the recordings of early Neapolitan mandolins, Richard Walz's Works for Mandolin and Fortepiano on Globe Records is the only recording of which I'm aware to actually feature an early Neapolitan mandolin strung as prescribed by period methods. All the others of which I'm aware use all wire or all gut. I'd love to know of any others to use period stringing.

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## an uncalloused fingertip

I have one Vivaldi disk of Carmignola. I'll tell you who I really like though: Andrew Manze. I have Tartini's Devil's Trill, and my handful of available adjectives cannot give justice to the how moving his interpretation is. I also like his Telemann solo violin pieces. I have him playing Bach's violin concertos and Handel's concerto grossi, but I have heard versions that pleased me more (more flourishes around Handel). I think he really is at his best when he is playing solo violin. I know Carmignola has a disk for the Four Seasons, but I already have two versions - Holloway and then Perlman (sp.); I also have the Four Seasons for recorders . 

With our discussions in mind, I really wish I could remember the title of this old, small hardcover book I found in the music library, when I was still in college (a few years ago). It dealt with the history of playing the mandolin(e) - from the its Middle Age ancestors through the XVIII Century. I was probably the first guy to check it out in twenty years, but the book was very comprehensive - and there were even illustrations. I know one of you guys must have got your fingers on this same book at one time or another. 

Gene

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## Eugene

I like much of what Manze has done, but (and I'm sure Manze fans will feel like lynching me for this) sometimes he comes across as too academic for me. #I like many of his recordings with Romanesca, particularly those of Italian music from the first half of the 17th c. #I appreciate the effort to bring Vivaldi's "Manchester" sonatas to the world as a contiguous set, but the performance sometimes comes off as a little repetitive to me, as if the players don't have any more to say about these things past three or four of the 12 (I'm not sure if that's Vivaldi's fault or Manze's. It couldn't be North's!). His speculative unaccompanied performance of Tartini is fun (did you note the "Art of Plucking" thread here, Gene; I suspect you'd appreciate it). #I was rubbed the wrong way by Manze's recording of Bach's accompanied violin sonatas (I much prefer Goebel's). #Manze's speculative performance of BWV 565 is quite exciting in the toccata and coda. #Unfortunately, the whole stretch of the fugue in between is strictly monophonic without a single double stop; to my ears, it comes off as monotonous and simply does not succeed at implying polyphony. #I think I need to write an Amazon.com rant on this very topic.

...And welcome, Gene senza Eu-. #It's great to be joined here by another lover of mandolin in classical music.

...And, to keep the thread relevant, Manze's sometimes collaborator Nigel North is a known player of 6-course mandolino by the brilliant Barber & Harris.

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## margora

While we are on the subject of Manze, I would say my favorite Manze disc is the recording of Pandolfi.  By far, the wildest (and strangest) Baroque ornamentation I have ever heard.

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## Eugene

All I've heard of Manze on Pandolfi is a single single-movement sonata Phantasticus. Thanks for the tip.

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## etbarbaric

I too have lots of Manze. I like some... some not so much. For some reason I'm always conscious of Manze's ornaments... and that he is "improvising". The thing I distinctly love about Carmignola is that the ornaments/improv blend into a more contiguous whole. The music is the thing eh, not the ornament.

I talked to Nigel about the mandolino experience (broadcast on Barber and Harris' site). He said it was years ago and he never touches the thing now... :-( Nigel is quite capable of picking up virtually anything with strings and making music, however.

Eric

ps - Check out Rachel Podger's Bach sonatas... Very nice, IMHO. I heard her perform *all* of them live in two nights back to back a few years ago. An amazing experience.

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## Plamen Ivanov

Eric (and others), did you find who plays the second part of Vivaldi`s Concerto "Con molti stromenti" with tremolo? I think this question left unanswered, when we discussed it before.

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## etbarbaric

Hi Plamen,

Sorry, I forgot to look/listen. I know I have at least one example as I can hear it in my head (this is not good as I rather dislike this approach). I'll try to remember to go through some CDs later. Sorry for not getting back to you.

Eric

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## Plamen Ivanov

It`s OK. When you have time... don`t worry. I`m just curious.

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## etbarbaric

Hi Plamen,

As it happens I found one on the first try! This one is a 1984 recording by I Solisti Veneti under Claudio Scimone titled "Vivaldi: Concerti per Mandolini" on the Erato label (ECD 88042). The mandolinists are Ugo Orlandi and Dorina Frati. They tremolo all over the place on the Andante Molto of RV558.

This recording contains the three legitimate Vivaldi concerti that call for mandolino (RV 532, RV425, and RV558) as well as the previously-discussed RV93 that actually calls for leuto (all played on Neapolitan mandolin). As is apparently accepted practice, the CD calls RV93 "Concerto in Re Maggiore (RV93) per mandolino, archi e clavicembalo", reflecting what *they* are doing, and not what Vivaldi called for. As you'll recall this piece is for four individual instruments (2 violins, leuto, basso)... no mandolin or string orchestra (archi).

I'm smiling, because its fun to read these liner notes from 20+ years ago to see the interplay of ideas. O'dette's recording (Hyperion, CDA66160, 1984) puts forth the idea of the "soprano lute" for the leuto, differentiating between it and the mandolino by using plecra on the latter. I Solisti (1984) use the "soprano lute" (presumably referencing O'dette) as justification for employing the Neapolitan mandolin, because it is "of the same register as the soprano lute which was also played with a plectra" (huh?!). Tyler's "The Early Mandolin" (~1989) takes a thinly-veiled swipe at O'dette for using a plectrum on the mandolino and confusing the register intended by the leuto part.

One bit that I do agree with: the liner notes of ECD88042 also discard the idea (later echoed by Tyler) that the mandolino pieces might have been written for a patron (the Marquis of Bentivoglio). While possible, its now clear that mandolinos were common among the musical inventory of the girls of the Pieta'. In fact, more recently-uncovered documents (that I mentioned on the Cafe earlier) point to lots of mandolino activity at the Pieta'.

These guys all deserve great credit for getting their ideas (and the music) out there... but it shows how much can change in our understanding in 20 years... and the trouble you can get into reading liner notes! Slowly we make progress.

Eric

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## margora

Re: Carmignola, I saw him perform not too long ago, Bach (accompanied violin sonatas). His technique and musicianship are almost beyond belief.

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## Plamen Ivanov

Thank you, Eric! And I like your thoughts about this (and other) issues.
Any new videos of you?

Good luck!

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## etbarbaric

> Of all the recordings of early Neapolitan mandolins, Richard Walz's Works for Mandolin and Fortepiano on Globe Records is the only recording of which I'm aware to actually feature an early Neapolitan mandolin strung as prescribed by period methods. All the others of which I'm aware use all wire or all gut. I'd love to know of any others to use period stringing.


Hi Eugene,

I'm not sure about stringing, but there is another that's probably worth mentioning. "Mandoline Galante: Maitres Napolitains au XVIII Secl", Calliope, 1999 (CAL 9274) with mandolinist Christian Schneider and harpsichordist Sylvie Pecot-Douatte. Christian plays a lovely 1766 Antonius Vinaccia Neapolitan instrument, and the album features music by Verdone, Riggieri, Denis, Fargere, Corrette, Gervasio, and Leone.

Unfortuantely the album has a painting of a lute on the cover... and the actual 1766 Vinaccia is only featured in high-threshold relief etched onto the CD itself!

Still, nice listening. Perhaps Richard can comment on stringing as I believe he's seen this instrument in the flesh.

Best,

Eric

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## etbarbaric

You're welcome Plamen. As for video of me... well the only video that might be taken is of me hard at work on my keyboard... a computer keyboard that is (not very interesting )... I'm trying desperately to get back to music but my business has taken over my life in the recent past... very sad! :-)

And Robert... I am most envious... I'd love to see Carmignola in person. What I've heard just knocks my socks off.

Eric

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## Eugene

I have a copy of Schneider's disc and really enjoy it, but I don't hear any evidence of a g in octaves or coolly jangly twsited brass on the d'; I also don't hear a g' in the Beethoven on Galfetti's disc. #In like vein, Frati and Capucci use all wire with Ensemble Baschenis and Lichtenberg (I think you told me, Eric) uses all gut on Musikinstrumente des Ferdinandeums.

Of course, Orlandi's Vivaldi disc was referenced earlier as the source for the excerpts on the "Magic" disc.

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## etbarbaric

I agree with your assesments on stringing Eugene. And yes, I think Caterina did tell one of us that she used gut-based stringing on that particular recording where she used an original 18th century mandolin.

"Cooly jangly"? OK... if you say so. :-) Actually I do use Dan Larson's twisted brass D's and an octave-doubled G on 18th century Neapolitans. We should perhaps suspect all recordings of 18th century Neapolitans where the instrument is actually in tune, as being likely inauthentic... :-)

Eric

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## Alex Timmerman



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