# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  Wiens Mandolins Dirty Laundry

## MandoCowboy

Wiens Mandolins has some serious issues as this website declares

http://www.custominstrumentwatchdog.com/

Jamie Wiens labled as a "Poster Child" for being unscrupulous.

Check it out.

----------


## R. Kane

It would be nice for the builder to have a chance to respond here if he chooses to, before this thread gets locked down. I've certainly been on the unhappy side of architectural and construction engagements; and public leverage like this would have been helpful. Let's hope that the parties get everything worked out to mutual satisfaction, and outstanding mandolins and smiles result.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

Wow. That sucks. This thread is going to get locked.

----------


## Scott Tichenor

This violates board posting guidelines. While we're fully aware of issues some of his customers have expressed, we do not take sides in these matters.

Specifically:

- Using the board to malign or leverage personal advantage in a conflict is strictly forbidden. Though intent or motivation are not always provable, the moderators reserve full right in deeming whether or not comments made are consistent with policy, and may take action to edit, delete, or when necessary, revoke posting privileges.

----------


## Scott Tichenor

I'm making a difficult decision to re-open this discussion and to allow it to continue because additional issues have recently come to my attention. I'd like to say this is the first time I've seen reference to this subject matter, but it isn't, and I think it's time everyone had their say. 

Understand why it's rare that we will allow this to move forward. It's against board policy to leverage the forum for disputes against others. We are often asked for permission to "vent" in the forum when it's clear the best solution is direct and private communication between parties to resolve problems. Unfortunately, I do not see that as a solution here. Do not mistake this as a change in our guidelines, only a situation that requires a response clearly out of the ordinary.

The builder in question was notified of this action in advance and is welcome to respond. Or not. I have not made attempts to contact other parties involved. 

I've notified Ted Eschliman, our lead moderator, and asked he instruct the other moderators to monitor this discussion, as will I. We will _vigorously_ enforce existing guidelines and ask that everyone stick to the facts and that they do so with the knowledge that we will not tolerate inappropriate and unacceptable comments.

----------


## AlanN

Goodness, what a messy mess.

Many years ago, this builder said he would build me a copy of my old F-5, if I would send that old F-5 to him. I didn't.

----------


## fred d

:Cool:  Time for some old fashion justice like the 40th break his hands  :Whistling:

----------


## Jim MacDaniel

:Popcorn:

----------


## Larry S Sherman

I hope that whatever has happened will be resolved. He makes some amazing instruments. Dan B's F-5 is a beauty. I've always hoped to get a Weins someday.

----------


## mandroid

Maybe he got too much "is it done yet"  ??  too often.  :Mad: 

a big car full of big Kids .. "are we There Yet"??  :Confused: 

 :Redface: Over sold his waiting list.

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Maybe he got too much "is it done yet"  ??  too often. 
> 
> a big car full of big Kids .. "are we There Yet"?? 
> 
> Over sold his waiting list.


No, that's not it. I'm from western Canada and though I haven't commented (and won't again) I have heard enough over the years to say that this is not unexpected.

----------


## JGWoods

I've got no dog in this fight. I just wonder sometimes why some builders don't just stop taking orders, build what they want to and put it up for sale. 
I think once a guy has a 2 year plus waiting list he's got a problem, maybe even 1 year is too long. 

If a person is a dedicated artist/builder it seems to me that a long list of waiting customers is a guaranteed headache. Better to build first, find the customer later.

----------


## kirksdad

Scott/Ted;

Thanks for letting this post stay.  You may have helped the situation greatly.  There have been a few threads here in the past six months talking about some of the builders practices, both good and bad, this builder was the subject of one of them.   I'm very interested to hear Jaime's side of the story.  

I truly understand that the builder deserves wide leeway, on their methods and build time frames, they are doing something the vast majority of us cannot do.  This appears to be very much wrong.

There was a member who received a Wiens mandolin in this time frame....he posted pictures and talked about the experience, I wonder how his experience effects Walt and Jim's build ..........

----------


## pickinNgrinnin

I think it's a good thing you've decided to let this thread continue. Public pressure can often lead to good results. I consider this a public service to the Mandolin community. I'm not sure Jamie can explain his way out of this one. If he winds up losing his business/reputation as a result of his questionable practices, he has brought it upon himself. You reap what you sow.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

I think the circumstances, in this instance, merit further discussion of the topic, so I commend Scott for letting the conversation continue. I think it's necessary to prevent others from getting duped. A little over a year ago, I emailed Jamie to ask about his wait time and was told that it was two years, which it appears was not anywhere near the truth even back then. The builder may fancy himself an artist, but when you are taking people's money and making promises, like it or not, you are engaging in business and it is perfectly reasonable to expect a customer to hold you to account for the promises that you have made.

There is no doubt that Jamie is very talented, but if the facts stated on the link in the OP are true, he deserves every bit of the bad press that he is getting and more. It really surprises me that someone would be so unscrupulous considering how small the mandolin community is and how easily stories can spread via the internet. Hopefully he will chime in, but to me, there isn't much he could say to justify what he has supposedly done. Why deal with people like that when there are builders like Tom Ellis and Will Kimble out there who will build an instrument that is every bit as good and be courteous and straightforward about the process as well?

----------


## Elliot Luber

> if the facts stated on the link in the OP are true, he deserves every bit of the bad press


That's the issue. How do you judge a few anonymous quotes? 

If someone comes on this board and says they have a problem, then we can discuss it. But when some guy posts some anonymous allegations somewhere else, it's hard to say what the facts are. 

Myself, I get annoyed at people who send me emails sometime and my response to one person may not be representative of how I treat the greater public. What's the context?

----------


## Chris Biorkman

I think it's highly suspicious that the builder hasn't responded to any of these allegations in previous threads, including one that he himself started. He undoubtedly knows that these stories are circulating. If it were me, and my integrity was falsely being called into question, I would vociferously defend myself. To me, his silence says something.

----------


## jasona

I think the disgruntled customers on the other web site should stop complaining online and start exercising their legal recourse if that is how they feel.

Otherwise, ditto Mike Bunting's post.

----------


## Glassweb

This sort of thing is a damn shame. It's obvious Jamie is an exceptionally talented luthier; however, very often great and eccentric talents are the absolute _worst_ people to represent themselves. Perhaps he should consider having a rep (as many top builders have done/are doing). If his mandolins are as good as they appear to be, they'll get sold either way.

----------


## Elliot Luber

Perhaps that's wise advise. If he wants to be an artist and distance himself from the interpersonal business aspects, why not hand it off to someone.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

> Perhaps that's wise advise. If he wants to be an artist and distance himself from the interpersonal business aspects, why not hand it off to someone.


Because he gets to take deposits this way perhaps.

----------


## G. Fisher

He has been removed from the builders list.

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

This is just bad news all round !. Bad for the builder himself & bad for his potential customers. IMHO,i think he needs to take a couple of steps back from this situation & re-consider his public stance as a builder who has (had) a great reputation. Personally,i sincerely hope that a man of such talent can re-assess his situation & get back on course,even if it means having to eat one or more pieces of 'humble pie'. It's been done many times before,usually by politicians,who seem to be unusually adept at shooting themselves in the foot.                                                                     Ivan :Confused:

----------


## J. Wiens

Hello everyone...After quite a little run of this ongoing melodrama, I feel that I should finally address it personally to assure those of you who may not see my silence on the matter as a form of grace or forgiveness, but perhaps as some confirmation of the accusations being made against me by a certain individual on this board . Before I do though, I'd like to first apologize to all of you who've had to put up with the seemingly never-ending threads regarding me & my “bad business dealings”. There's so many more interesting things to read about here on the mandolincafe than the soap opera of “which guy doesn't have their mandolin yet and why?”  Having a client of mine go sideways on me and drag my name out in public is embarrassing enough, but I hate that it's taken away from your otherwise positive learning and social experience here on the cafe. So for that, I'm sorry.

Hopefully most of you can see what's happened here. In a nutshell, I'm late in completing an instrument for a client and he's upset.

It's not the first time I've been late with an instrument order, and to be perfectly honest, I've been late with just about every custom instrument I've ever built for anyone. I'm famous for it.....I'm not particularly proud of that, but at the same time I know that this trait is nothing new in the world of creative endeavor...It is, whether you or I like it or not, the nature of the beast. As long as there's been passionate craftsmen making object d 'art with the best of intentions, there's been people getting upset because the thing wasn't done when it was supposed to be. In my time making instruments, I've seen all kinds of behaviors from all kinds of people who are anxious about their instrument not being completed on time. From family members, to my best friends, to people I've never met or spoken to..There's a few basic behaviors. There's subtle hostility of all kinds, frustrated crazy emails, withholding of funds, some cancel their orders, some offer legal threats....Heck I've even had a letter from a client's psychiatrist one time! So As someone who's been down this road many times, I think I have enough understanding of these behaviors that I can, and do try to help my clients through these feelings whenever they surface. 

However having said all that, I don't think I need to point out that the particular client in question is behaving in an extreme and unscrupulous manner beyond anything that is reasonable.


I'm generally a pretty firm believer in “Don't complain & never explain”, So I wouldn't normally get into all the minutiae of my dealings with anyone in public. However in my own defense, because of the accusatory things that are being said by this person, I will give you all the broad strokes.
Suffice it to say that an instrument was ordered in 2007 with a projected completion date of spring 2009. Unfortunately I had a really unexpected rough spot in my personal life in 2008 which I am only now recovering from ...It definitely slowed me down. I explained to this person in late 2008 that due to that rough spot, that things were going slower than hoped,..I received nothing but encouragement and support from him . However by Spring 2009 that encouragement had somehow slowly turned into hostility. After a half dozen hostile & threatening emails over several weeks that spring, and a refusal to call me to sort it out, I finally phoned him, hoping we could resolve the issue. Despite an hour spent on the phone trying to talk things through...It was clear that there would be no reasoning with him. He cancelled his order the following day. Another long phone call ensued.....I explained that I didn't have the money to refund him immediately and that it'd take some time to find the right client to take his place. He agreed to give me 3 weeks to come up with the money and spelled out to me that after that, his pride wouldn't allow this kind of sleight and that there would be consequences. 

That brings us up to now... To my knowledge thus far he has A; sent out a sinister-sounding mass email to many of my family, friends and clients. B: posted ads here in the cafe classifieds to sell “his build slot” which I explicitly forbid him to do over the phone C: Started smear threads ..one of which you are now reading..Which of course serve to scare my present and future clientele and make life and income difficult for me. And now last but not by any means least,  D: he seems to have has created an actual website under the guise of a legitimate "custom instrument watchdog" in which he attempts to paint some picture of me as a fraud artist.....Heh! Who said this work isn't glamorous?


What am I doing about it? For starters I've announced on my website that as of June 2009 that I will no longer accepting orders for instruments from anyone. This ensures I wont' be in this situation again after I'm through my present order list.

Wiens instruments will simply be available as they are completed and you may put your name on a waiting list for a small fee. I arrived at this decision, not just because of the individual who is presently rocking the boat. ..though he helped make it an easy one....but also because of other negative interactions with people in the past.  You see, I'm really not interested in upsetting people...I only want to make instruments and get better at making them every day, and after enough time spent building these instruments one thing I know, is that I can _never_ know. Meaning that I've learned that no matter how long or how ofter I've done this work, that there will always be something that will go sideways or badly or otherwise surprise me....Something will always take twice or five times as long as you think...something will always have to be redone or thrown out..Without fail. 

So rather than continue to cross my fingers and hope that I can meet an optimistic deadline I've made, and then torturing my clients with uncertainty after that deadline passes for whatever reason. I think a much better idea is to not involve other people in my creative process at all. To make my business not about custom instruments for certain individuals..After all ..these things usually get traded or sold to other people eventually. So I plan to simply make instruments and allow those who wish to, acquire the work when it is complete. This way we're all happy and can continue on our merry way in life.

What about this individuals instrument order and his money? As of Jan 18th, I have made arrangements for the sale of his instrument when it is completed ( FYI It requires a fretboard and inlay and then it's on to finishing ) There's been no money exchanged with the new buyer at my request, and at the time of sale, the client in question will receive a refund once he's signed a release of contract . Since the instrument is spoken for now, I'd like to request that the webmaster here on the cafe not allow any more ads for the “Wiens build slot” from this person. 

That's about it. I'd like to thank those of you who have been supportive through this time despite the hoopla. Anyone who has any questions about what I've said here please feel free to call or email me.

Sincerely 

Jamie Wiens

----------


## goldtopper

In any other business, this builder would have to hide from customers kicking 5k out of his butt.
"Artist" for too long has been used as an excuse to be difficult, elite and not subject to conventional rules of trade.
Got problems? Fine, be honest and return the money, otherwise shut up and put your nose to the grindstone.

----------


## Stephen Perry

I'll simply point out that the messy situations in the music biz I've been involved in as an advisor have all except one been resolved very quickly through increasingly formal communications.  My general approach for the usual contract problems either for myself or others has been:

1.  Phone call
2.  Letter
3.  Letter from attorney, certified
4.  File suit

I've gotten to step 4 on behalf of clients, but never a trial.  This simple process keeps the drama out of it. 

In instances of intentional misbehavior (embezzlement or the like), a different approach might prove more effective

From both sides, a willingness to negotiate needs to be present, and a parity in communications.  Letter should be matched with letter, formal proposal should be matched with written comments and suggestions or a counter.  Certainly when negotiations start with screaming or formal communications are met with threats or obscure demands the party making polite efforts may be driven away from negotiations.  I have observed that, too, a situation that benefits nobody.

I'm reminded why I don't take commissions, and don't even like special orders from my suppliers!  

In no instance have I seen pleading to others in fora, skating up to the edge of defamation or the like, threats, or other bad behavior do much except make rational discussions difficult.

----------


## Rob Gerety

Many problems can be avoided by having a clear deal in writing from the get go.  Since delays are so common they should be anticipated.  The original deal should address the consequences in the event of delay. 

This sort of thing is one reason why I will never order another custom build instrument.

----------


## AlanN

It so depends on the builder. I have dealt with 2 craftsmen, the first had a few glitches, mostly in terms of how long it took to get the mandolin, but nothing like the above. The 2nd builder I dealt with came through swimmingly - on time, on spec and perfect in every way.

----------


## Scotti Adams

When I try to access the above website by the Op I get this...I have Verizon Internet Security Suite

Suspected Fraudulent Web Site Detected by the Verizon Internet Security Suite Fraud Protection      Verizon Internet Security Warning:
Suspected Fraudulent Web Site Detected 

You are attempting to connect to a reported fraudulent web site

URL: http://www.custominstrumentwatchdog.com/

Do not submit personal information to this web site. We recommend that you delete any emails associated with this URL.

Report a false positive 


For more information please visit the Fraud Protection site. 







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To view this web page, type your security services password in the field below, and then click Continue to web site. NOTE: Some sites use malicious code to install malware on your computer and can steal personal information such as bank account numbers and passwords. For this reason we strongly recommend that you not display the fraudulent site.

Security Services Password:

----------


## Scotti Adams

Got to see the site. If these quotes are true...well never mind...you dont want to know what I think.

Damn shame

----------


## Bertram Henze

It has been my understanding that a good relationship between builder and player is a core component of what custom building is all about. Why anyone should pay money for an instrument that will remember him of a terror time forever is unclear to me.

Therefore, it should be top priority for both not to let any kind of tension even begin, i.E. form a clear picture of deadlines and agree what to do in case of problems before the event.
In this particular case, the builder should plan buffer times for those unforeseen delays (never hurts to finish early) and buffer budget for customers pulling out. The customer, on the other hand, has clearly gone outside what is needed to settle the case, apparently not interested in staying in the frame of mind that he must have aimed for when placing the order. If luthiers have a customer blacklist, that'd make an entry.

----------


## kirksdad

> It has been my understanding that a good relationship between builder and player is a core component of what custom building is all about. Why anyone should pay money for an instrument that will remember him of a terror time forever is unclear to me.
> 
> Therefore, it should be top priority for both not to let any kind of tension even begin, i.E. form a clear picture of deadlines and agree what to do in case of problems before the event.
> In this particular case, the builder should plan buffer times for those unforeseen delays (never hurts to finish early) and buffer budget for customers pulling out. The customer, on the other hand, has clearly gone outside what is needed to settle the case, apparently not interested in staying in the frame of mind that he must have aimed for when placing the order. If luthiers have a customer blacklist, that'd make an entry.


Betram;

Have to disagree with you there.

I think the customer (In fact it looks like a few of them) did everything reasonable in trying to rectify the situation.  I think this site has a few occassions allowed these situations (Danny Spurgeon being a fine example, Gail Hester another) where it seemed in the best interest of the community to air this out.  I read all that I needed in Jaime's reply to know, there is no way I would ever do business with him.  If evasion is the way to explain your business practices, then the fallout serves you right.......

KD

----------


## Barb Friedland

It's good to hear from Jamie about all this and I think he's making the right change in his business practices but this situation is unfortunate and should never have happened. It's sad because I have heard very good comments about his instruments. Even artists (and I used to be one but stopped because of not wanting to create on a deadline, sound familiar?) have to be able to conduct business properly. Regardless of the circumstances, a person in business has to treat clients respectfully, even when the going gets tough. Problems need to be resolved with the idea that client satisfaction is the number one priority. Anyone who cannot accept that should not be in business at all.

I'm choosing to ignore the actual quotes attributed to Jamie on the website mentioned by the OP as they are so extreme that I have trouble being willing to buy them, especially when taken out of context. But clearly something went wrong with this instrument order and apparently, it isn't the first time.

The bottom line for me is that a luthier is a business person as much as an artist/crafts-person and must be willing to conduct themselves accordingly. At this point I hope that Jamie can reflect on proper business practices, turn things around, and rebuild his reputation.

My thought is that we can all learn from this. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater- a custom built instrument can be a joy. If I ever get there, I will not work with anyone without a clear signed contract.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> When I try to access the above website by the Op I get this...


It's a false positive.

----------


## nickster60

This just my personal opinion.
If you only sell instruments you have already made ,you will make them in a little more timely fashion. Hunger can be a very powerful incentive.

----------


## Kirk Albrecht

I have for a couple years thought that a Wiens F-5 would be my dream mandolin, and Dan B's experience confirmed those ideas.  They appear to be simply amazing instruments from the hands of a master craftsman.

This is a disturbing development, because of what it does not say --

1. Jamie in his reply never addresses the quoted emails from the "unscrupulous builders" website ... he never gives an explanation that deals with those statements presented as facts.  From where I sit, that is merely obfuscation of reality.
2. Jamie does not address his contention of being "an artist, not a businessman".  I highly doubt that any of the many fine craftspeople on the Cafe who produce wonderful instruments would ever use that rationale.  They would merely stand by their work, apologize if delays occurred, and seek to do what was right.

The guitar world knows well the legendary stories of Wayne Henderson, and trying to get him to build you a guitar.  Yet in spite of how long that takes for most folks (who willingly put up with it because of the amazing quality of his guitars), there is never a hint of any impropriety or shady dealings with Wayne, his integrity is above question.

I hope that Jamie will work hard to restore his reputation on this board and in the niche world of mandolin building, and strive to do the right thing, with transparent business practices, with every customer.

----------


## Glassweb

no easy answers or solutions in this case, but "gossip ain't the gospel" and there's certainly two sides to every story.
i applaud builders who choose to deal with clients directly and can pull it off, but if it were me, i'd much prefer concentrating on my craft than dealing with emails and phone calls all the time... no wonder nothing ever gets done on time...

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Betram;
> 
> Have to disagree with you there.
> 
> I think the customer (In fact it looks like a few of them) did everything reasonable in trying to rectify the situation.  I think this site has a few occassions allowed these situations (Danny Spurgeon being a fine example, Gail Hester another) where it seemed in the best interest of the community to air this out.  I read all that I needed in Jaime's reply to know, there is no way I would ever do business with him.  If evasion is the way to explain your business practices, then the fallout serves you right.......
> 
> KD


There are stories on that website telling what customers did. Supposing these stories are true, it's not the process described there I meant. I was talking about the fact that those stories are publicized on a website to destroy a man's reputation. That's what I don't consider an appropriate style. I am not taking sides here, both parties have made mistakes. Learning from them is better than spraying them on the wall.

----------


## Ron McMillan

A note of thanks to the Cafe for allowing this discussion to be aired. I personally never foresee being in a situation where I can afford a custom-built instrument, but if my situation changed so greatly that I was able to, I'd certainly look to places like Mandolin Cafe for recommendations.

I would always treat the word of a disgruntled customer with a certain amount of caution, but in this case Mr Wein has failed to say anything to cast real doubt on his unsatisfied clients' claims.

As someone who has been in the freelance photojournalism/journalism world for over twenty years, that worries me. If over the years I had made even two clients so angry as Mr Weins seems to have done, my name and reputation would have been deservedly dragged through the mud, and editors would have stopped calling me. 

I know one builder I will *not* be contacting, even if my finances take a spectacular turn for the better. My thanks again to Mandolin Cafe for allowing this discussion to take place.

ron

----------


## Earl Gamage

Why is it acceptable for an order to be late by months or years?  It seems to me the luthiers should give a realistic delivery date and meet it.

No sympathy to Wiens here.

----------


## kirksdad

Maybe so Bertram;

I think the fact this thread is still active is very telling.  Sometimes, when all convention is exhausted, you must find another way..........

----------


## doc holiday

I'm glad that Scott has decided to let this discussion take place on the forum.  Like Mike B  I'm from western Canada and personally know a number of people involved here.  There are many great mandolin & guitar makers who produce beautiful instruments and are capable and ethical in their business practices.  I'd just like to add that not everyone who orders an instrument is a "collector," and many amateurs and working musicians who take a chance and order early work from a builder do so to get a good instrument at a modest price.  For these folks, having thousands of dollars tied up for years, or having an instrument which has serious build issues, considerably affects their musical circumstances.

----------


## brunello97

Kudos to Ted for letting the conversation play out and the insistence on a civil tone to the conversation.  (Any ideas of running for the Senate, Ted?) Same to all the cafe members who have responded thoughtfully.  Not the model in today's culture of the screaming demagoguery from tv and radio commentators. 

Clearly much of the story is not being told here and like many in the conversation I don't feel I have enough information to make an informed opinion about the facts , but something bridles inside me to hear Mr. Wiens cloak himself as an 'artist' to avoid certain basic responsibilities.  This does a disservice to artists everywhere.  We've all seen 'Pope' Rex Harrison mouth "When will you make an end?" to Michelangelo in 'The Agony and the Extacy".  Okay, it is the Sistine Chapel, not exactly an artistic or business model for a mandolin maker, no matter his artisanship.  

Make no mistake, Mr. Wiens, despite his claim, is NOT an artist---how is that for an inflammatory statement?  If we confuse making mandolins with art--no matter their craft or quality, no matter their aesthetic appeal, no matter their desire-line and our obsession and appreciation of them--all of which I share--then we are making ourselves conceptual and rhetorical conundrum from the very start which only complicates communication and understanding.  And which also demonstrates a basic misunderstanding of how art has functioned and continues to function in our society.   Mr. Wiens may be considered an 'artist' in a metaphorical sense perhaps, as in 'clubhouse lawyer', 'armchair philosopher or quarterback' or 'architect of the bill before Congress.'   

Somehow we have diminished the title of 'artisan' of its longstanding and critically important cultural meaning and with it some of its value.  It should be restored to its value of esteem and merit in our culture.  As we have moved away from a culture of making things to a culture of buying/consuming things I believe we have lost track of this and then to confuse our language and our meaning.   To call oneself an artist rather than an artisan seems like a self imposed entitlement (as if their should be any real need for such.)  To call one an 'artist' as a means of compliment or praise should be taken as such and not lead to self (or group) delusion.  

Forgive me if this sounds like the pedantic ramblings of a college professor, but I am a college professor, so any condemnation as such would be right on target.  Mr. Wiens 'sincere' mea culpa was not a good way to begin my morning.  Muy sketchioso, as my spanglo-phonic vatos might say.

Mick

----------


## Bertram Henze

> To call oneself an artist rather than an artisan seems like a self imposed entitlement


Draft definition: an artist fulfills his own dreams, an artisan fulfills his customers' dreams.

Self-imposed entitlement may backfire.

----------


## 250sc

J. Wiens wrote "I'm generally a pretty firm believer in Don't complain & never explain

That pretty much shows the attitude of the builder in question and should become part of his logo so people are forewarned. 

Let's all try this when the utility bills come in. Sorry, I can't pay. I'm an artist.

It's a good thing he'll stop giving a time frame for his instruments completion.

----------


## Scotti Adams

Hey..anybody notice the Dude for sale in the classifieds?  :Grin:

----------


## deepmountain

Im Jim on the link from the o.p. of this thread. After seeing Jamies post I must add my 2 cents. Its clear that this guy just doesnt get it and is unapologetic. Heres the facts of my situation: I placed an order in 04 paying a $1500 deposit. Another time I sent more $ at his request because he said he needed a down payment on a house. In all, he had $5000 of my money for over 4 years. In the original contract for the order, dated April 30, 2004 the delivery date was Oct. 2005. I never expected the delivery date was hard and fast. I never bothered Jamie at all and tried to maintain and engender good relations with him over the years and as the months went by beyond the delivery date. 

Finally in March 2006 I asked if he could give me a new ETA. I think its reasonable when someone is well beyond the due date to expect to be given an estimate of when one might see delivery. At this point the insults and abuse, name-calling began, which I didnt deserve and I felt he had me over a barrel. I contacted a local attorney and was made to realize how expensive and difficult it would be to take legal action against him in Canada. In the end, in May of 2007, I emailed him to cancel the order and asked for my money back. Hed had my $5000 for over 4 years and eventually he returned all but $450, keeping that amount as a cancellation fee, even though he had broken the terms of the contract and hadnt done anything special towards building the mandolin. 

For any of you who have ordered a custom instrument and went through the long wait you might sympathize with a 2 year wait stretching out to over 4 and in the end coming up empty. Jamie just wont face reality and Im sorry for him about that. Also after the way I was treated by him I decided that I wouldnt want to play the music, which is so important to me, on a mandolin associated with so much negativity, no matter how great his instruments may be. 

At the time this was all happening I sent all the documentation of the emails and a copy of the original contract to Scott T. when I started a thread titled What do you think about this? without naming the builder to tell my story and get feedback from the MC community about the experience of others' dealings with builders. At that time people wanted to know the name of the builder but I wouldnt give it up. But I did send the info to Scott.

----------


## nickster60

It has been my experience that many high skilled craftsmen aren't necessarily the best businessmen. I own two businesses and it is difficult to be good at every aspect of running a business. Many of these guys are just stretched to thin and the stress levels can get pretty high. If you have never owned a business most people don't have any idea how much you really have to do. It isn't a 8am-5pm job it is more like 6am-9pm and you still didn't get to everything. You never get a sick day, you don't vacation pay, you pay for your own insurance(to many to list) and work to many hours. And sometimes you get a customer that really isn't worth having. 

Mr Wiens sometimes it is just better to give them back there money and send them down the road. You cant be all things to all people. Sometimes you cant meet a customers expectations and it better to set them free than go through this. In the long run it isn't as painful.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Also after the way I was treated by him I decided that I wouldnt want to play the music, which is so important to me, on a mandolin associated with so much negativity, no matter how great his instruments may be.


That is the really tragic part of the story. I think you did the right thing. Teaches us that a genius is not safe from Dunning-Kruger...

I hope you can play again and drive away the memories.

----------


## Grassman

Well, thanks to the mods for letting this air. Not that I have the money, but if I did I now know who I would NOT be ordering a mandolin from or doing business with in any way. I think Weins actions and business practices are obsurd.

----------


## G. Fisher

I don't question the validity of the quotes posted attributed Jamie. The reason being. What do they stand to gain? They are ether out money or a mandolin they had waiting many years for. 

Just my opinion.

----------


## yankees1

The days of a "handshake" or a modern " e-mail" to consummate a business  deal has been over many years ago. Most transactions should include a written and signed contract  that spells out everything about the transaction which legally could protect buyer and seller and prevent mis-understandings ! That being said, I just ordered an oval A from Bill Bussman :Mandosmiley:  and not worried at all as I am confident his word is as good as the old fashioned handshake!

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

Whatever the situation may be I´d like to express the following:

1. The website in the original (1st) post http://www.custominstrumentwatchdog.com/ does not show its originator. I don´t think this is ethical. If one makes accusations on the internet, show your face. As long as that is not the case, the accusations fall short. *So let´s not speculate about anything that is said on said site.*

2. We do not know if Jamie Wiens is a full time luthier (maybe repairman etc.), how his shop operates, how his other work progresses (like guitars I hear he is/was building). We do not know about his workload, output and income. We do not have any info (not even from Jamie Wiens himself. Therefore any statement in this direction is speculation. *Let´s not speculate here either.*

3. Wait times are subject to emotional stress at times. We have two incidents (reported by deepmountain and MandoCowboy) that show us that the wait time was too long for them (I feel with you) and who apparently had (MandoCowboy still has as verified by Jamie Wiens in his post) issues to anul the contract and reclaim the allready payed money. We do not know if this is the rule or the exception, because of our lack of knowledge about Jamie Wiens´ business volume. *So let´s not speculate here either.*

4. What we know is (in a nutshell)
    a. deepmountain and MandoCowboy wanted a mandolin built by Jamie Wiens, waited a long time, got tired waiting, wanted to anul the contract, wanted prepaid money back and didn´t get it back yet (MandoCowboy) or had to wait a long time for most of the money (deepmeountain).
    b. Jamie Wiens claims that selling a "build slot" is subject to his approval and otherwise "unlawful".
    c. Jamie Wiens says that MandoCowboy will get his money back after the sale of the (ordered) mandolin if MandoCowboy will "release" the mando (which Jamie Wiens claims is in advanced stage of being built).


--------------------------------

First of all, let me clarify that it is with sincere, heartfelt grief I hear of problems like these (I remember the J. Condino thread where he complains about unnamed customer[s] with other builders chiming in, do you? I also remember the Darby Boofer thread from back when, do you?) 

I do think that all involved parties have a right to be up front with their opinions about the other party´s way of acting. We others have no axe to grind there so we cannot judge the case. 

But if I´m not dang awfully and seriously mistaken (as a legal professional), if a contract is not met either party has the right to revoke the contract. This means a full refund of allready made payments. And I must be equally doggonned mistaken if it´s not perfectly legal to sell a "build slot". 

But why grind an axe here. We all had our experiences in an instrument purchase. I think the general rule is 
- you make a downpayment (like 500 USD)
- you wait
- you pay the rest upon completion of the instrument (before shipping).

This way both customer and luthier have an equal share of risk (that the deal falls through, the luthier dies, USPS breaks the instrument in transit etc.)

The rest is up to taste. (I waited 3 years for a great mandolin, that was allright; I might just buy me a new instrument for which I may have to wait ... 4 years [I know the luthiers, they are great and build great instruments, 4 years wait time is very long and it may just be too long]; I would never get on a list of people like Wayne Henderson, John Arnold, T.J. Thompson etc. because the wait time would kill me and then I´d be unable to enjoy the instrument) Other people have different tastes.

I read a post that a Dude was for sale in the classifieds. I se that the price is 10.000 USD lower than it would have been a couple of years ago when they went for about 35.000 USD. Anybody wanna comment...

----------


## Jill McAuley

I just find it a wee bit ironic that Mr. Weins refers to the disgruntled client as "unscrupulous" - a bit like the pot calling the kettle black when you've had $5000 of someone's hard earned money for several years, while they were empty handed, waiting on an instrument that wasn't materializing.

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## mandopete

As sad as this story is I am glad that the Mandolin Cafe has seen fit to allow this discussion to continue in public.  Having been a member of this community for a number years now it's somewhat impressive that this discussion has risen to level of civility that speaks volumes of where we have come to in our evolution (no, I don't want my tail back thank-you!).

----------


## kirksdad

> Whatever the situation may be I´d like to express the following:
> 
> 1. The website in the original (1st) post http://www.custominstrumentwatchdog.com/ does not show its originator. I don´t think this is ethical. If one makes accusations on the internet, show your face. As long as that is not the case, the accusations fall short. *So let´s not speculate about anything that is said on said site.*
> 
> 2. We do not know if Jamie Wiens is a full time luthier (maybe repairman etc.), how his shop operates, how his other work progresses (like guitars I hear he is/was building). We do not know about his workload, output and income. We do not have any info (not even from Jamie Wiens himself. Therefore any statement in this direction is speculation. *Let´s not speculate here either.*
> 
> 3. Wait times are subject to emotional stress at times. We have two incidents (reported by deepmountain and MandoCowboy) that show us that the wait time was too long for them (I feel with you) and who apparently had (MandoCowboy still has as verified by Jamie Wiens in his post) issues to anul the contract and reclaim the allready payed money. We do not know if this is the rule or the exception, because of our lack of knowledge about Jamie Wiens´ business volume. *So let´s not speculate here either.*
> 
> 4. What we know is (in a nutshell)
> ...




The deep mountain has expressed his views, Jaime had a chance to refute them (which he did weakly) and the community is better off for having heard this.  I believe its the quantifiable actions of the builder, which lead to this being aired.  I'm not sure why you and Betram are defending Jaime_....<inappropriate comment deleted by Moderator>........._

----------


## JeffD

The whole thing is tragic and distressing. It shows how fragile a reputation can be, right or wrong, and how powerful the internet can be in destroying a reputation, right or wrong. The reputation holder is always vulnerable.


I distinguish a difference between what might be sloppy in the business world, and what would be considered unscrupulous, and knowing absolutely nothing about it except what has been posted here, I am not going to pile on, I am giving Jamie Wiens the benefit of the doubt, and would absolutley consider him in a future build or purchase. And if that turns out to be overly charitable, so be it, thats the side I am prepared to error on.

----------


## Lynn Dudenbostel

Olaf.. to my knowledge, my F-5s have never sold for $10k more than the asking price on this one.  They have sold for more than this, but the mandolin market is soft compared to years past.  Just look at the number of Loars that are available now compared to a few years back!  These things go in cycles, and I suspect the market will rebound in time.  I'm just glad it's not a vintage electric guitar.  That market has gone beyond soft, with some instruments worth 1/3 of what they were 2 1/2 to 3 years ago.  Nothing wrong with this mandolin except the timing of the sale.

Lynn

----------


## 250sc

Grassroots,

I can have an opinion with the information provided by the luthier and the customers who feel they're being abused. *I haven't speculated on anything*.  (I can use bolded text too. Very impressive.) I don't have to be involved in the transaction to have an opinion based on what the parties have stated.

The contract between the parties has been breached for years now. The luthier never stated that the instrument will be done when it's done. He gave a time frame and didn't meet it and can't refund the down payment because he spent it.

----------


## Gerry Cassidy

> The deep mountain has expressed his views, Jaime had a chance to refute them (which he did weakly) and the community is better off for having heard this.  I believe its the quantifiable actions of the builder, which lead to this being aired.  I'm not sure why you and Betram are defending Jaime ....<inappropriate quoted comment deleted by Moderator>


Resorting to racial comments?

This whole thread seems a little "Lynch Mob'ish" to me.

----------


## Spruce

> Why is it acceptable for an order to be late by months or years?  It seems to me the luthiers should give a realistic delivery date and meet it.
> 
> No sympathy to Wiens here.


Well then, you'll have to add Mike Kemnitzer, Steve Gilchrist, John Sullivan, John Monteleone, and several others to your feces-list...    :Wink: 
(A fine list to be on, and I put Jamie right up there)....

What happens is that a builder gets _real_ popular, _real_ fast (especially in this internet age), and gets totally _swamped_...
_Years_ out in some cases....
And one little glitch--health problems, family issues, etc. etc.--throws _everything_ out of whack...

And most of them don't want to go the good 'ol traditional capitalistic path of hiring a bunch of employees to knock out some mandolins...
Good on 'em...

I ordered mandolins from 2-out-of-3 of the aforementioned builders, and when the mando arrived, it arrived...

I didn't badger them, or even mention the order when I talked to them, unless they brought it up...

When it happened, it happened, and it was a wonderful day when it _did_ happen...
And it _did_ happen....

I don't necessarily recommend this way of doing things, but it worked for me.....
And the builders, I assume....

(Thought I'd get this in there before the gates go down).....     :Wink:

----------


## resophil

Well, I HAVE been involved in a transaction, and I don't have to speculate! I've corresponded with Scott about this, and he has asked me to post here:

I first became aware of Jamie Wiens about 1997 or thereabouts when I started a bluegrass band here in Edmonton. My friend bought a mandolin from Jamie; it was the first one he had ever built, and was a bit “clubby” in the neck. But it was a powerful instrument, and it was evident that there were some possibilities for the builder in years to come if he kept after his trade. (I’m a cabinetmaker, and well-versed in wood lore…)

After a couple of years of intermittent e-mailing and phone calls back-and-forth, Jamie and I agreed to have him build me a Loar styled L-5 replica. Jamie was into studying Loar’s instruments, had been able to sketch John Reischman’s instrument, and really wanted the chance to build…He wasn’t doing anything much at the time, (living at home with his parents) and didn’t seem to have much in the way of income… He quoted me a price including Calton case, and we proceeded. 

Now, as I mentioned, I’m a tradesman. I am used to dealing with building contracts and in my trade, it’s rare to do a job without one! After all the discussions were complete, I prepared a comprehensive description of what was agreed to for the guitar, and framed it into a contract, of which I sent a couple of signed copies to Jamie. I told him that he would get his down payment when I received a signed copy back from him. I gather he had never been faced with a contract before, but he DID sign and return the contract to me. This is the one thing that saved my bacon later on!!!

I sent Jamie a cheque on Nov.6, 2000 for a thousand bucks, as the down payment. I followed a month later with another thousand, but Jamie cried that he wasn’t working, didn’t have any money, and needed to tool up for a whole new instrument, so I sent him another 600 a few days later, and told him that that was all he was getting. (it was about 60% of the contract) We corresponded a few times during the next year, but I saw no pictures, or progress reports. 

So, a year later, (the next November or December,)  a buddy and I fired up one weekend and told Jamie we were stopping by. We arrived at his folk’s house at 10 in the morning to find Jamie still in bed… No guitar was evident, and Jamie tried to pawn me off with a plank leaning against the wall. Now I had brought gifts with me, (I bought him a copy of the L-5 plans from Stew-Mac, and made a depth caliper for graduating tops, for him. You can still see it on his site amongst his building pictures…)  I told Jamie straight to his face that this was unacceptable in light of his promises to me. His delivery date was 3-4 months imminent, and he had done nothing. This upset Jamie fiercely and our relationship went downhill from there. He eventualy started the build, but the relationship deteriorated further.

Recriminations, threats, rhetoric, and the “artist” point-of-view then filled my inbox. Jamie seemed to think that it was a privilege for me to be the recipient of his  craftsmanship (even though there was none of it in evidence…) As I said, several others around town had by now played the original mandolin and were favourably impressed. At least three more orders came to fruition, two of which I knew about intimately. We began to talk and it became evident that they weren’t faring any better in their builds either. 

After a sufficient number of insulting e-mails and demands for more money from Jamie, I took matters in hand. Jamie accused me of not “supporting” his artistic endeavours (more of the same BS) and got downright nasty! I sent him an e-mail in the spring of 2002 saying that his demands did not sit well in the face of a written and signed building contract. I gave him a way out, but threatened to sue him if he didn’t bring about resolution of the contract. (By now I had given up hope that I would ever get an instrument that I wanted from Jamie)

Within a week of my ultimatum, I had my money back in hand in the form of a certified cheque, as well as a request to be released from the contract. I don’t know where he got the money,  but at least I got mine back.  

Both of the other customers that I knew closely got their mandolins after lengthy delays, and much of the same rhetoric that we seemingly all faced. To cap things off, both of those mandolins had the tops cave in after a year, and then they needed to go back to be repaired. That led to no end of ill feelings.

The importance of having a contract cannot be over-stressed in dealing with a builder. During our troubles, Jamie emphatically told me that he would NEVER AGAIN deal with a customer who wanted a written contract. Neither of my friends had one when dealing with him, and both were extremely reluctant to pursue any legal action against Jamie. For my American friends, I can only sympathize! Dealing with an incident cross-border like this, would certainly devour an immense amount of money in legal fees, for the hoped-for gain. And would anyone really want an instrument that was built for them in such a grudging manner?

It may be that the chickens are coming home to roost after ten years of dealing with customers in such an abusive manner!

I could add much, much more, but I have put Jamie behind me for the most part. That doesn’t mean that I don’t warn others about dealing with him if the subject arises, but Jamie’s impassioned plea on the forum falls on my deaf ears…!!!

I include here a quote from the last communication I ever sent to Jamie Wiens:
"I hope that things go well for you, Jamie. You are a talented young man who needs to develop a good business sense and a good work ethic. I sincerely hope you do."

Larry Seutter

----------


## chasray

It will be a good thing for Jamie Wiens to build the best mandolin he can, THEN sell it. He has some obstacles to overcome that are largely his own doing. I hope he does. 

Trust is a precious thing.

Personally, I have had two mandolins built for me by independents who frequent this website. Communication was good, they did what they said, only a fraction of the price was needed upfront. It was a pleasant experience both times. I wish that for all.

----------


## allenhopkins

Every musician, like every builder, is an "artist" to some extent.  That doesn't mean I can make an agreement to perform somewhere, take a deposit, show up two hours late for the gig, and then dis the person who hired me, for not understanding the "realities" of the "music biz."

If you make an agreement to produce your "art" for a customer, whether it be a concert or a mandolin or the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, you're a businessperson as well as an artist.  That implies you must be businesslike as well as artistic.  Occasional accidents, oversights and downright failures are understandable; I've been late for a gig or two, for sure.  An overall pattern that leaves dissatisfied customers in its wake, is going to be fatal in the long run.

If you're a painter, and you paint pictures, hang them in a gallery, and hope someone likes them and buys them, that's one thing.  If you take a contract to paint Ms. Bigbucks' portrait, with a deposit and a deadline, that's another.  Perhaps Mr. Wiens is making a wise decision to build on his own schedule and sell his instruments when they, and he, are ready.  Hope he can make a living working that way.  As a semi-pro musician of non-stellar talent, one of the things I sell to "clients" is professionalism and dependability.  I'm there when I said I'd be there, and I do what I said I'd do.  Doesn't make me a hero, just someone trying to get along in a world where no one _has_ to lay out the buxx for my "art," and where there are plenty others who can do what I do.

The cost of an extended discussion like this, to the builder being discussed, must be incalculable.  I'm sure Mr. Wiens' business, if not his art, will suffer from it.  But there is a great deal to be said for professionalism as well as artistry.

----------


## Andrew DeMarco

Thanks Scott for allowing this to go on.

Having read all of this -- I wouldn't order a custom from Weins (option is now off the table), but I would buy one of his mandolins if I liked it.

----------


## fatt-dad

Oh my!  I had alot to read at lunch today, eh?

f-d

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> The deep mountain has expressed his views, Jaime had a chance to refute them (which he did weakly) and the community is better off for having heard this.  I believe its the quantifiable actions of the builder, which lead to this being aired.  I'm not sure why you and Betram are defending Jaime_....<inappropriate comment deleted by Moderator>........._


I´m not defending Jamie Wiens. I just try to steer out of speculations way. I´d especially like to point you towards the end of my post which gives my moderate opinion about anuling a contract and the general division of risks between customer and luthier.




> Lynn Dudenbostel 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Olaf.. to my knowledge, my F-5s have never sold for $10k more than the asking price on this one.


Oh, I remember Elderly having one of your mandolins a couple of years back (2005 [?]) for about 35.000 USD, though I may be wrong. 

My humble search skills came up with this thread. Your classified ad had 28.000 USD for an F-5 in 2006 and fellow café fellas support my memory (as that I´ve seen one of your mandos for about 35 k at Elderly).

Heck, more power to you, Lynn. Never played one of your mandos though I surely wouldn´t mind if I did, not at all. They look great (and Josh Pinkams soundclip on your site sounds great as well). 

As for your shop, I wish you the best; and if I may make it to your neck of the woods, may I stop by and try one of your mandos out? (... though I don´t have cash ready to buy one)

----------


## mrmando

One reason a builder might be reluctant to let a customer sell his "build slot": Suppose I agreed 5 years ago to build a mandolin for $5K, but now in 2010 my mandolins are selling for $10K. If one of my customers sells his build slot to another customer, I still have to deliver that mandolin for $5K. If, however, I can buy out the original customer myself, I can then sell the mandolin at the new price and pocket the difference. 

Of course, if the customer no longer wants the mandolin, he could still hang on to his build slot, take delivery whenever it's finished, flip it to someone else for $10K and take the profit himself...

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> One reason a builder might be reluctant to let a customer sell his "build slot": Suppose I agreed 5 years ago to build a mandolin for $5K, but now in 2010 my mandolins are selling for $10K. If one of my customers sells his build slot to another customer, I still have to deliver that mandolin for $5K. If, however, I can buy out the original customer myself, I can then sell the mandolin at the new price and pocket the difference. 
> 
> Of course, if the customer no longer wants the mandolin, he could still hang on to his build slot, take delivery whenever it's finished, flip it to someone else for $10K and take the profit himself...


The builder might be reluctant but it´s perfectly legal. There´s not much difference if a "build slot" is sold for 5 grand or the finished instrument is sold for 5 grand (even if it´s worth three times as much). For example I know a guy that bought out a Gilchrist build slot in the 90ies (wasn´t me).

----------


## Links

Thanks Larry  -  very enlightening!

I have two points.  First, this sort of thing really impacts all builders in that it makes perspective clients think twice about having a custom instrument built.  It shoudln't, but if you read what Jamie says, it is part and parcel of being an "artist".  Part of Jamies' problem in calling himself an artist is the fact that although a significant amount of art is involved, there is also a huge chunk of "production" work that does not require the artist side of the brain operating on all cylinders.

My second point, which no one has mentioned, pertains to Jim putting up his slot for sale after knowing the problems he had with Jamie.  Why in the world would you try and sell a build slot to an person not familiar with what went on  -  and  -  why do you think someone would take it if they knew the problems.  Jamie owed you the "cancellation fee"  -  not someone wanting a build spot!

----------


## AlanN

> a Gilchrist build slot in the 90ies


Ahh, the gay 90's, when 'Goils was goils and men were men' - and Gilchrists were priced right!

All I know is that piccolo mandolin was the cat's meow!

----------


## deepmountain

Hi there,

I’m Jim’s partner and I do his computer stuff for him. I’ve been following this thread as I put up the previous posts for him and have been through this mis-adventure with him. I would not join in on this ordinarily because it’s Jim business, but I feel compelled to do so because he is at work now and can’t respond and I would like to clarify a few things on his behalf. 

1/ the “unscrupulous builders” website: 

http://www.custominstrumentwatchdog.com/

was not put up by Jim (deepmountain) but by Walt, (mandocowboy) the OP of this thread. Jim lent his support to Walt and allowed him to use copies of the email exchanges between Jim and Jamie on said site. 

2/ The email excerpts on the website are only a small portion of what actually transpired and while taken out of context they do accurately reflect how Jamie chose to communicate with a client who had the audacity to ask him to uphold his agreement while holding $5000 dollars of that client’s money. 

3/ Jim had a written/ signed contract from Jamie, not a “handshake” or an email contract.

4/ Walt is still out $7000 waiting for Jamie to sell a mandolin so he can get his money back. It was Walt’s further payment that Jamie used to refund Jim’s money.

5/ The purpose of bringing all this out into the open is both Walt and Jim feel that people should finally know about Jamie’s poor (at best) business practices and his abusive manner in dealing with clients. It’s not to “grind an ax” and to destroy someone’s reputation, only Jamie himself is responsible for that.

6/ Jim did everything in his power to be reasonable, friendly, and interested in the process (Jim is also a fine woodworker and so was keenly interested in the building techniques, etc.), and to communicate respectfully with Jamie—even when Jamie became disrespectful of Jim, which began to happen when Jim, a year after the original contracted due date came and went, began to ask for a new delivery date.   That’s when he became to Jamie a “PIA” as well as other defamations of his character. (I guess it’s considered unreasonable to ask someone to live up to their end of the bargain.) And I can say without any hesitation, much to the contrary, that Jim is honest, with deep integrity and he bent over backwards to support Jamie whenever he needed it, when he needed to move, when he needed more money for whatever the purpose. 

Finally, Jim is a player, not a collector, who works hard as a maintenance worker at the university here, doesn’t have deep pockets and sold a beautiful Santa Cruz Guitar to get the down payment for the Wiens. He was 65 when he ordered the Wiens and it was going to be an instrument he would play for whatever he time he had left in this life. He did not see it as an investment. 

What’s really sad to me as a witness of this whole process was to see someone that I love and care about start out like a kid in the candy store, thrilled at the prospect of being able to acquire a once in a lifetime instrument, only to have that sweet candy turn to ashes in his mouth.

But the end of the story turned out sweet after all. Jim acquired a Givens F-5 that he loves and is happily playing away on. 

I’m very sorry for Walt and any other of Jamie’s clients who are still waiting.

best regards to all--

Kathryn Stark

----------


## deepmountain

> My second point, which no one has mentioned, pertains to Jim putting up his slot for sale after knowing the problems he had with Jamie.  Why in the world would you try and sell a build slot to an person not familiar with what went on  -  and  -  why do you think someone would take it if they knew the problems.  Jamie owed you the "cancellation fee"  -  not someone wanting a build spot!




Please get your facts straight...it's not Jim who was trying to sell his slot, but Walt (mandocowboy)

KS (for Jim)

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> My second point, which no one has mentioned, pertains to ... putting up his slot for sale after knowing the problems he had with Jamie.  Why in the world would you try and sell a build slot to an person not familiar with what went on  -  and  -  why do you think someone would take it if they knew the problems.


Interesting perspective.

Other than that, I think that there´s not much more to be said here.




> AlanN 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by grassrootphilosopher  
> a Gilchrist build slot in the 90ies 
> 
> Ahh, the gay 90's, when 'Goils was goils and men were men' - and Gilchrists were priced right!


Them was the days and I was just poor enough to buy me a Strad-O-Lin instead of a Gilchrist. Life is still good.

----------


## Scotti Adams

Not to add more fuel to the fire honestly but Im wondering if the recent Weins that have been commissioned, bought and shown here in the last couple of years were of no troubles or just the ones that were commissioned before Mr. Weins "personal problems" came to take a toll. Im thinking that there were a couple of mandos that popped up of custom builds that seemed to be pushed to the front of the line. Could be wrong..usually am. No flames please. This is truly a sad situation for all who is involved and theres a great wealth of things to be learned.

----------


## foldedpath

> Why is it acceptable for an order to be late by months or years?  It seems to me the luthiers should give a realistic delivery date and meet it.


In my experience with three custom orders from individual luthiers (Holst and Leach), and two custom orders from small-scale factories (Santa Cruz and Breedlove), this isn't a practical expectation, unless you're dealing with a newbie builder with no waiting list who is very, very hungry. And that's not always a good situation either. 

In every one of those cases -- three full custom guitars, one semi-custom guitar and one special order mandola -- I was given an estimated delivery date, and in every case but one, it ran overtime from six months to a little over a year for one of the guitars. To be fair, the extra year for one of the guitars was partly due to my spec'ing a pickup that was difficult to get.

I've never had an order go late by two years or more, which I'm sure is coloring my feelings about this, but some delay seems to be normal in this business. This is known as "luthier time" in online forum discussions. When a luthier says an instrument should be ready at X date, I always assume this means "X + 50%". That way, I'm pleasantly surprised if it arrives earlier, and my blood pressure doesn't go up if it's late. I think people can get into trouble working with independent small-shop luthier, when they expect the buying process to work like a normal commodity product purchase. 

That said, I've always had good communication with the luthiers I've worked with, and I was always treated respectfully during the ordering process. When everything goes well, it's an incredibly fun and satisfying process to work with a luthier on a custom instrument built to your specs. Mr. Wiens didn't dispute the content of the emails quoted on that web site, and I've never had an order go south like that. If those quotes are accurate, then I can't fault the buyer from getting steamed and taking it online.

----------


## Rob Gerety

In my business we take advances or retainers but we do not - and cannot - use any of the money until we do work and earn the money.   This business of taking a large retainer and spending it before you start work is a big part of the problem.  The money should either be held until completion or taken in installments based on progress.

----------


## Scotti Adams

> in my business we take advances or retainers but we do not - and cannot - use any of the money until we do work and earn the money.   This business of taking a large retainer and spending it before you start work is a big part of the problem.  The money should either be held until completion or taken in installments based on progress.


bingo!!

----------


## Mandoblab

Quoted from "Spruce:"

"Well then, you'll have to add Mike Kemnitzer, Steve Gilchrist, John Sullivan, John Monteleone, and several others to your feces-list..."

With regard to Steve Gilchrist, I really hope I am misinterpreting your comment.   Steve and I had an email agreement.  He gave me a delivery date, progress photos of the numbered instrument as he built it, and had it delivered to me two weeks earlier than promised!

He was a delight to work with and has continued to immediately respond to any questions I have had for him in the three and half years since I received the mandolin.

By the way, Steve doesn't refer to himself as an "artist" (although those that have enjoyed his artistry might disagree with him).  He, like you, calls himself a "wood butcher."  

Mandoblab

----------


## Chris Biorkman

It's one thing to overshoot your wait time if you have your nose to the grindstone, but it's quite another to do it by as much as the builder in question has done when you are averaging about one completed instrument per year. There is no excuse that could possibly justify this.

----------


## AlanN

> Quoted from "Spruce:"
> 
> "Well then, you'll have to add Mike Kemnitzer, Steve Gilchrist, John Sullivan, John Monteleone, and several others to your feces-list..."
> 
> With regard to Steve Gilchrist, I really hope I am misinterpreting your comment.   Steve and I had an email agreement.  He gave me a delivery date, progress photos of the numbered instrument as he built it, and had it delivered to me two weeks earlier than promised!
> 
> He was a delight to work with and has continued to immediately respond to any questions I have had for him in the three and half years since I received the mandolin.
> 
> By the way, Steve doesn't refer to himself as an "artist" (although those that have enjoyed his artistry might disagree with him).  He, like you, calls himself a "wood butcher."  
> ...



My experience precisely.

And this business of taking Peter's check to pay Paul, I think there's a financier doing time in Butner for following that business model.

----------


## Scotti Adams

"And this business of taking Peter's check to pay Paul, I think there's a financier doing time in Butner for following that business model."

Damn Alan..Ive got tea coming out of my nose..

----------


## Spruce

> With regard to Steve Gilchrist, I really hope I am misinterpreting your comment.


I was talking about back in the day, when he first started getting swamped....

And this is in no way a criticism of those builders mentioned.  
I was merely pointing out that in this biz, stuff happens....

And apparently still is.....

----------


## 250sc

Ron Oats is a better example of bad buisness practices than any of the ones Spruce mentioned.

----------


## Spruce

> Ron Oats is a better example of bad buisness practices than any of the ones Spruce mentioned.


Again, _I wasn't criticizing_....   :Disbelief: 

I was not comparing any of my good friends to Mr. Oats, who I do not know....   :Wink:

----------


## Sleepy

Well, this has certainly changed my thinking on ordering a custom.  Headed to the classifieds. I will leave you with this quote. 
"There are three kind of men, The one that learn from reading, the few that learn by observation, the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves"
                                                                               - Will Rogers.

----------


## JimRichter

> Well, this has certainly changed my thinking on ordering a custom.  Headed to the classifieds. I will leave you with this quote. 
> "There are three kind of men, The one that learn from reading, the few that learn by observation, the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves"
>                                                                                - Will Rogers.



That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  The list of reputable and trouble free builders is 100 times longer than the few where trouble has been encountered.

----------


## Chuck Naill

> Well, this has certainly changed my thinking on ordering a custom.  Headed to the classifieds. I will leave you with this quote. 
> "There are three kind of men, The one that learn from reading, the few that learn by observation, the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves"
>                                                                                - Will Rogers.


This is not a commercial, but the builder whose web site is below my signature works in his shop everyday, seven days a week. 

He takes custom orders and can have you a good product within a matter of weeks. There is no reason why it should take him less time to build and violin or mandolin than anyone else unless it is because he works everyday. 

He never accepts payment prior to finishing the instrument and takes cash. He has been successful with this method for 55 years.  :Smile:

----------


## Rob Gerety

Where I come down on this is that unless you are wealthy with money to burn and unless you are a very very skilled player, you might want to think long and hard about wading into the world of custom built instruments.  I know you are right that the list of good outcomes is way way longer than the list of bad outcomes.  And the instruments can be stunning.  Still, I think the best thing for guys like me is to suffer along with used high end instruments or the Collings, Webers, etc. of the world, or maybe a vintage instrument.  There are so many instruments out there that will meet my needs and my pocket book that I'm just not going down that road again.  So for some people it can be a wonderful experience.  But I'm not playing in that league.

----------


## Glassweb

Whats really sad to me as a witness of this whole process was to see someone that I love and care about start out like a kid in the candy store, thrilled at the prospect of being able to acquire a once in a lifetime instrument, only to have that sweet candy turn to ashes in his mouth.

Kathryn Stark[/QUOTE]

so well and beautifully put Kathryn. after all i've read on this thread i think Jamie would be best served to finish the mandolin he is currently working on, make it as wonderfully as possible, get it to the appropriate buyer and _then_ find a way to refund every single dollar he has for deposits on instruments.

----------


## Tom Sanderson

Having a Mandolin built is not for everyone. If you want one from the top builders, you should be prepared to get in line and wait.  I have had two Nuggets built for me. The first one took over six years. The second took around two years. I knew going into it that Mike had a long list and I expected them to take longer than they did. Mike never gave me a promised date of delivery, he did tell me how many were ahead of mine and how many he usually finished per year. I did the math and figured it was well worth the wait. I was right. The wait time gave me the opportunity to save my money so I had them paid for when they were done.

----------


## doc holiday

Rob, It's too bad you feel inclined to avoid single luthier shops.  As a lefty, nearly all my instruments have been customs.  Both Weber and Collings have  built great instruments for me.  I've taken the advice of both  friends and professional musicians on the choice of luthiers.  I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but often because of low overheads, an individual builder can give you a great instrument and value for your money.  The Whipple Creek Mahogany dread I just got, is a match for guitars I've had that cost two or three times as much. Renowned players like Jody Stecher, Tom Rozum and John Reischman have played Stan Miller's mandolins.....yet you can buy an A style for 4.5K.  Here's what his website says.."Given the time available, I expect to complete two mandolins every four months. No deposit is required. " Buying instruments,  I've had more good experiences than bad ones, and I believe the mandolincafe community and the music community in general is made up of good people.

----------


## foldedpath

> Well, this has certainly changed my thinking on ordering a custom.





> Where I come down on this is that unless you are wealthy with money to burn and unless you are a very very skilled player, you might want to think long and hard about wading into the world of custom built instruments.


Well, don't tar the whole profession based on one bad actor. Working with a luthier to create something special, has been the most satisfying part of instrument ownership for me over the years. My S.O. just had an amazingly good experience working with a local violin luthier on a custom build. Neither of us are hotshot players, but we have been playing long enough to start developing a sense of what we like and don't like in an instrument. That's really all you need, along with not being able to find what you want easily, off the rack. If you can find the perfect fit in a pre-built instrument, and don't have the desire to go through the process of working with a luthier, then it's an easy decision.

If you do go for a custom instrument, just do enough research about the luthier to feel comfortable about the process. Ask for referrals to satisfied customers. Any good luthier who has been in the business for a few years should be able to provide that. Once a decision is made, be very clear (in writing) about contractual agreements. Delivery time is often a variable, but nothing else should vary from the initial agreement.

----------


## Rob Gerety

> Well, don't tar the whole profession based on one bad actor.


I totally agree we should not tar the whole profession.  That is not my intent.  For many people it can be a great experience.  Its just not for me.

----------


## deepmountain

> so well and beautifully put Kathryn. after all i've read on this thread i think Jamie would be best served to finish the mandolin he is currently working on, make it as wonderfully as possible, get it to the appropriate buyer and _then_ find a way to refund every single dollar he has for deposits on instruments.



Thanks Glassweb. In addition to what you suggest, I would hope that Jamie would also learn something from this and change the way he does business, as well as taking a long look at himself and reflecting upon how he treats people in the process. Granted, some clients may be somewhat anxious or a little pesky; from what I witnessed I don't think Jim was—I think his patience with JW was above and beyond. 

Regardless, even if a client might be a bit anxious for whatever reason, it doesn't give JW the right to be abusive and insulting; from what I've read here from others with similar experiences with him, that seems to be JW's M.O. I guess when all else fails, some people just have to blame others for their own faults and shortcomings. 

best—

KS

(I'm going to bow out of this now and let Jim speak for himself should he wish to participate further in the discussion.)

----------


## delsbrother

> Jamie does not address his contention of being "an artist, not a businessman".  I highly doubt that any of the many fine craftspeople on the Cafe who produce wonderful instruments would ever use that rationale.


Eh, I'm not so sure about that.  :Cool: 

The thing that bothers me is Mr. Wiens is still contemplating selling spots on a wait list. That's not something you do if you can't meet deadlines.

----------

Shortjourneyhome

----------


## George R. Lane

I have been following this and other threads about Mr. Weins and the problems associated with his delivery times. I think the old saying 'caveat emptor', or 'buyer beware' fits perfectly for this thread. My feeling is that we have beat this dead horse long enough.

----------


## Links

> Please get your facts straight...it's not Jim who was trying to sell his slot, but Walt (mandocowboy)
> 
> KS (for Jim)


KS  -  I apologize to Jim to suggest that, but honestly the "characters" become muddled and I made a mistake.  Jim sounds like someone of great integrity and trying to sell a his build spot did not seem like him  -  and it wasn't.

Now I am curious why mandocowboy would have done it, knowing what has already transpired.  Maybe there is a good explanation that is totally above board and I just don't get it.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

I kind of thought the same thing upon viewing the ad for the build slot, having already been aquainted with the previous thread where this topic was initially discussed. It's less than honest trying to pawn your problem off on someone else and that was what it appeared like to me. I'm sure that it appeared the same way to others based on the fact that he didn't have any takers.

----------


## Ken Waltham

I would be very curious to know the amount of actual "work time" that transpires in these cases. My point is that I have worked at the same job for 32 years now, and I know what it means to get up at 04:45 in the morning and put in a day. Then, be a father, husband and general handyman on my days off.
I really and sincerely believe that luthier's who are a problem to their customers in areas of delivery dates do not do an honest days work. I think they do not knuckle down and work like the rest of us have to. If you go in the shop and work, things shoud by rights get done.
As for Steve Gilchrist, just look at his output over the years, and you will see a man who is not afraid of work. And... I think you could rightly call him an artist, or any other flattering name you could come up with.
He also has time to do the very best available repairs on this planet to Loar signed F5's, and other instruments. How can a man do this?
Because he works.
When he repaired Ronnie McCourey's Loar, he did 9 Loars in that 2 week period he was in Missouri. How does he do that? Hard work.
I was raised on a farm, and know how to, and still do work with my back, my hands, as well as my mind and emotion.
It's never hurt me and made me a better person.
That is simply what is lacking here.
Just my humble, country opinion.
Ken

----------


## Flattpicker

miniscule footnote:  wait time for a Fleta classical guitar is, and long has been, 20 (twenty) years.

----------


## Tom Haywood

I'm glad this thread was allowed to continue. A lot of good lessons on both sides of this issue are coming out. Very educational!

----------


## Mike Bunting

> miniscule footnote:  wait time for a Fleta classical guitar is, and long has been, 20 (twenty) years.


It is not about the wait time.

----------


## fredfrank

QUOTE: To cap things off, both of those mandolins had the tops cave in after a year, and then they needed to go back to be repaired.

This would be enough to scare me away from this builder. I wonder how long it would take to get it repaired?

----------


## Randi Gormley

I, too, appreciate the fact that this thread has been able to continue -- especially since scott is so very careful about not letting threads in that do little but bash and flame. I think the fact that this is being allowed to continue (and the amount of posts it has engendered) speaks to a need for a frank discussion of a lot of issues, from customer relations to expectations and fairness. I generally feel (like someone mentioned above), that it was a case of caveat emptor for anybody entering into a pact with someone else -- a cautionary tale, and a good discussion about what is a reasonable response: what's a reasonable time to wait for a custom instrument, what's a reasonable response to delays, what's a reasonable response to a request for information, what's a reasonable expectation of respect on all sides.
In my job, I occasionally speak with people who have a problem with something and feel they've run out of options. In my initial discussions, I first try to see if they have, indeed, followed a reasonable course of action before turning to the newspaper for help. Then I ask them what they expect the paper could do for them if we did write about their issue -- what they want, in the end, and how they feel the paper can help. I applied those questions in my own mind to the original intent of this string. Someone wondered why this was aired on the interweb at all, or couldn't have been kept between gentlemen as a bad experience all around. But I think most of us, whether we can afford a custom instrument or not, have indeed learned something about the process, and that's all to the good. It's a lot like watching "United Breaks Guitars." Sometimes, just knowing something is its own reward.

----------


## Mike Bunting

> what's a reasonable time to wait for a custom instrument, what's a reasonable response to delays, what's a reasonable response to a request for information, what's a reasonable expectation of respect on all sides.


The complaint as I see it was not about the wait time, it is about the builders responses to legitimate concerns of the buyer.

----------

Shortjourneyhome

----------


## Rob Gerety

> I know what it means to get up at 04:45 in the morning and put in a day. Then, be a father, husband and general handyman on my days off.
> I really and sincerely believe that luthier's who are a problem to their customers in areas of delivery dates do not do an honest days work. I think they do not knuckle down and work like the rest of us have to. 
> Ken


That's it.  In a nutshell.

----------


## Spruce

> I really and sincerely believe that luthier's who are a problem to their customers in areas of delivery dates do not do an honest days work. I think they do not knuckle down and work like the rest of us have to. If you go in the shop and work, things shoud by rights get done.


Speaking for my business, Ken is _dead-on_, especially if you've been paid (even a small %) up front...

I'm getting a little old to be lugging around a chainsaw and running a saw mill all day like I used to, I like to take the day off and go see if I can get a salmon, I like to travel unexpectedly (greetings from SoCal!!), and, hey, the wood needs to season anyway, so what's the hurry??....   :Wink: 

But that's why I send the tonewood out _before_ asking for payment, let the customer judge whether he or she likes it or not, then ask that them to please send funds if the wood looks OK...

It's a tradeoff, but one that has worked for many years now...
It's _old-school_, and that's the way I like it....

A lot of conflicts--such as this one--seem to arise from the mando customer plunking down hard-earned funds, then feeling like they disappeared off the radar, with their funds gone, or at least, unacknowledged...

So-ooo, maybe that's the way that some mando makers should do it...?

And that way the mando maker doesn't get locked into an anachronistic price, as many high-end makers have done in the past...

----------


## delsbrother

Bruce, you need to have your own reality show.

----------


## Chuck Naill

One thing for sure, the wait for a Wiens mandolin has surely gotten shorter.  :Grin:  after this thread. I also bet that the deposit becomes a thing of the past.  :Whistling:

----------


## GDAE

As someone who runs a business involving creating things for clients, I think the most important thing to do to keep a customer happy (aside from being polite, of course) is to keep them updated.  If things are running behind, let them know that, tell them why, and give a new ETA.  And the CUSTOMER should never be the one who has to mentally build in extra time, the artist should.  If you think, as the creator, that it will take you 4 months, perhaps say 5 or 6...this gives you wiggle room and then the customer can be happy that you were early rather than upset that you were late.  But above all, polite friendly, quick responses to customer inquiries goes a long way to make them happy.   And if you have a waiting list of over a couple of years, close it until you're caught up somewhat, or just take names.  I've never felt it was appropriate to take my potential clients money months in advance.  But I do keep in touch and let them know that I will be available for their project at X time, if they are still interested.

----------


## barry k

I wont comment on someone elses business , because it is none of my business, BUT......No deposits????, Sending out mandolins without payment ??, thats recipes for disaster in my humble opinion, and respectfully submitted.  Thats all I will say on this subject.

----------


## Spruce

> I wont comment on someone elses business , because it is none of my business, BUT......No deposits????, Sending out mandolins without payment ??, thats recipes for disaster in my humble opinion, and respectfully submitted.  Thats all I will say on this subject.


It's done _all the time_ in the violin world....

_"Take that bow home and play it awhile"_ (referring to a $3K bow)...

_"Well, you really need to play it in context, so take it and try it out"_ (referring to a $2.5 million Strad)....)

That's just the way things were, and _are_, done...

----------


## barry k

With that being what it is Spruce, do you know of any suppliers or builders that got burnt with that practice? And for the record ,thanks for your act of kindness with me a year and half ago, YOUR A GOOD GUY. sorry for the hj.

----------


## Eric Hanson

FWIW.
 Some years ago I spoke to a friend who is a Professional artist. He said the he tried to use the "artist" excuse, and that he had to be "inspired" to draw. He then said that didn't go too far with his boss. He then explained that he had to learn that he had the ability and could draw on it at his wish. He just had to learn to do so. 
 Sad that Jamie has not learned to do so yet. I hope that he does learn how to do so. I am sure that when he does he will feel better about himself and his work and business practices will reflect such. 
 BTW. I did have an early custom built mandolin. #16 as my signature indicates. Butch was great to deal with and did things the "old school way". I am happy with the instrument I received. Both myself and others have remarked on the voicing of the instrument. Having an instrument built for you specifically is marvelous. Exciting and a real joy with the right builder.
 May others here have such good experiences.

----------


## CES

:Frown: 

That's pretty much all I can say about this issue.

----------


## fishtownmike

Don't know if these attacks against Weins are justifiable or not but i do think the person who started the personal attack and the website against him is a coward for hiding behind an anonymous website and is acting just how a immature child would. Don't they have small claims court in Canada? If so that would have been the proper way to handle this issue...Mike

----------


## Spruce

> With that being what it is Spruce, do you know of any suppliers or builders that got burnt with that practice?


Yeah, me...   :Wink: 

But as far as a high-end mando or violin builder goes, that's kind of the way it should work...

You build it, they try it out for a week, and decide whether it's gonna work out or not...
If "no", the customer pays to get it back to the builder, and then you go from there...

No buying your way to the top of lists, or selling spots...
And no builders dying or being otherwise incapacitated (heaven forbid--but it _has_ famously happened), leaving a large waiting list wishing they hadn't gone down that road...

This obviously doesn't apply to folks who don't have a huge waiting list, or are just starting out building...

This is for the folks who have established a reputation as an upper-tier maker, and the customers who are interested in obtaining one of their instruments....

Which is what this thread is all about....

----------


## Bertram Henze

> The deep mountain has expressed his views, Jaime had a chance to refute them (which he did weakly) and the community is better off for having heard this.  I believe its the quantifiable actions of the builder, which lead to this being aired.  I'm not sure why you and Betram are defending Jaime_....<inappropriate comment deleted by Moderator>........._


I was too late to see the full comment, but just for the record: I am not defending any person.

It is just communication style that I defended, and always will.

I admit to lack of experience, though - never had have made a custom instrument for me yet (always content with stock stuff), and from this story I gather that I haven't missed out - the mere existence of a waiting list would drive me crazy, I'd never survive waiting for 2 years. If I want it, I want it now, life is so short (when you get older, time gets more precious). I make an instrument my own by playing it for a long time, even if I haven't configured it. I sympathize with Spruce's approach. 

Thanks to the moderators to let this run long enough for me to find out.

----------


## Dfyngravity

I have had several mandolins built for me, all custom orders with many special request and they were all delivered in less than a year from when they were started. Were they delivered later than the original estimated time, yup but that's why it was an estimated time. However, like I said they were still delivered within a reasonable time frame of a year.  

There are many builders here on the MC and many people here who have had custom built instruments and we all know how long it takes to build a mandolin or any instrument (from the time you start cutting wood to finishing the mandolin). 

If you are a full time luthier and it is a taking you years over your estimated delivery time than you are obviously doing other work as well, or you are not working when you should be. Yeah maybe you have become a popular luthier but that doesn't mean you need to start everyone else's instruments while you still have instruments that need to be finished.

Of the builders I have dealt with, they all worked the same way. They worked with small batches at a time until they finish them and then start another small batch. This makes sense to me and seams to work for many luthiers. By sticking with something like this they know within reason the estimated delivery time.

I know that Jamie's mandolin are absolutely stunning and from what I have heard are great sounding too. But from what I can tell, he isn't doing anything more special to his mandolins than any other builder out there. So why is it taking years to complete a mandolin once he has started it? That seems to be where the problem is and I think it is good thing for the consumers to know. I know that people can be on waiting list for a few years until it is their turn for their mandolin to get underway and that is expected with popular luthiers, but if it takes more than a year or two to actually build it......I know it takes time and there are lots of details and some times things come up but really? 


I think Jamie is doing the right thing by taking no more custom orders and building what he wants when he want while not leaving anyone hanging. This is what he probably should have been doing the whole time.

----------


## Glassweb

I know that Jamie's mandolin are absolutely stunning and from what I have heard are great sounding too. But from what I can tell, he isn't doing anything more special to his mandolins than any other builder out there. [/QUOTE]

actually, Jamie does LOTS of things other builders don't do. Dan Beimborn would have all the specifics, but let's just say that Jamie is probably the most Loar-obsessed builder alive today... and the final product shows it (unfortunately, I've never had a chance to play one)! if you have never seen images here on the Cafe of Jamie's incredible (if infrequent) work, i highly suggest you go to The Mandolin Archive and check out the photos of his most recent work. the most true-to-Loar f5's i've ever seen.

----------


## danb

> actually, Jamie does LOTS of things other builders don't do. Dan Beimborn would have all the specifics, but let's just say that Jamie is probably the most Loar-obsessed builder alive today...


Yes, there are plenty of things that make them special and a lot more work, plus many more craftsmen making custom parts to make that happen- all of that can contribute to the timeline. Making stuff to a vintage spec requires a lot of extra work vs using what's more readily avaialble. The extra customization of part (wood, binding, tuners, virzis, pickguards, bridges, tailpieces, peghead overlay, truss rod covers) would require a couple extra paragraphs to enumerate. Jamie's covered a lot of that on his website. 

I think they are peerless instruments, but I don't think "if the mandolins are any good" is what this thread is really meant to be about.

I don't like the tone of this thread and the balance of emotional content to the heart of the matter. I'd vastly prefer to see something like this solved with an extra helping of impartiality and cold logic.. but that's really not the job of a message board or a court of public opinion.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I am a bit reluctant to add to this conversation, but I do have some relevent comments.

I too offer parts and such for mandolins and guitars and like some luthiers have an extremely difficult time delivering.  Luckily for me they are not high dollar instruments with people getting giddy in excitement awaiting the product.  But when somebody needs or wants something, there is not that much difference.

Ken Walthams comments are the most relevent here.  If you are in "business" put in a good hard days work and the products will complete themselves.

Like Spruce, I do not take funds up front and most of the time I deliver the product first.  If I do get a check in the mail for something, I feel more compelled to complete it.  I do not cash that check until I have mailed the product.  I get all kinds of checks that become too old to cash also.

But this situation is because I have a full time job, a family, many other things come first and lastly my desire to build things is waning because I have proven to myself that I can do it.

The challenge is gone.

So in short, a business is a business and should be treated as such.  If it is a hobby, then you can invent whatever excuses you wish, but you cannot treat them both the same with deposits and promises.

----------


## nickster60

Ken 
Hit it on the nose put your nose to the grind stone  and get to work. 

It is true in violin world that violins and bows are sent out with out on a trial basis. But usually it is my experience you have to know luthier to get that treatment. There has to be some trust between you and the luthier. I have had bows sent on trial from some of the big houses but they always get your credit card number. 

Plus if you are good violinist you don't want stick it to the luthiers most know each other and word will spread fast. It would then be difficult to get your violin and bows serviced. You also wouldn't get the inside track on really good instrument or bows. The best stuff never sees the light off day. You have to know someone or you don't get a chance at it.

----------


## mandopete

All of this reminds of the reason why I purchased my last instrument (a guitar) from a store.

On the subject of deposits, the store where I purchased the guitar allowed me to take it home (along with another for comparison) without leaving a deposit.  I suppose it may have been the case since I know this store pretty well, but I suspect the same courtesy would be extended from a builder if you knew them.  In fact now that I think about it I know a builder that let me take a mandolin he had already built on approval.  

 :Coffee:

----------


## JeffD

> I don't like the tone of this thread .


Amen

----------


## mandopete

I'm curious (seriously) - what do you think the "tone" of this thread is?

----------


## deepmountain

In the interest of bringing more clarity to this discussion and as Dan Beimborn has weighed in, let me just say that Dan posted on the Cafe on Oct. 5, 2006 that he had played a Wiens at Wintergrass—2005 and "ordered one shortly after that."

I placed my deposit and order with Jamie in Feb. '04, a year before that.  Imagine what it felt like when Dan came on the Cafe again with pictures of his new Wiens in '07 while the rest of us on the list couldn't get any idea from Jamie when we might expect delivery. 

And again, it's not so much that the wait is long. It was the lack of honesty about the length of the wait and lack of communication and being treated badly when one asks for communication. Of course Dan is a happy Wiens customer. I would hope that he might understand why others aren't. 

Jim

(I received a written contract dated April 30, '04, which acknowledges receipt of the deposit in Feb.—just to clarify dates in my previous post.)

----------


## Tom Haywood

One of the subtle lessons here is that you may discover you have a real talent for doing something, you find a real joy in doing it and making it available to others, and fate takes you into the business of making a living doing it. Then, down the road, you begin to see that you really don't have the "businessman" personality. It shows up as an inability to always place the customers' concerns first, no matter how unreasonable they seem.  It also shows up in many businesses as promising top quality work, requiring substantial deposits and then spending the money on something else (including mollifying some other customer), and then not getting around to doing the work until forced by some outside pressure. This can lead to real trouble. It leads to some difficult decisions and changes of direction. I don't know Mr. Wiens, but he has stated here that he is an artist, not a businessman. He has expressed an intuitive understanding that he needs to change his business model. For him, not taking deposits may be the best thing he ever does to continue his passion. I would add that all buyers, no matter their other motivations, see a sale as a business transaction that includes a variety of expectations. I think, too, that almost all instrument buyers are artists themselves, and so can be difficult to deal with.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

The builder has no one to blame for the tone of this thread but himself. I actually think it's been pretty civil.

----------


## AlanN

Interesting indeed.

And I've seen far more 'Thanks for letting this thread continue' remarks than 'I don't like the tone' remarks.

----------


## Scotti Adams

> In the interest of bringing more clarity to this discussion and as Dan Beimborn has weighed in, let me just say that Dan posted on the Cafe on Oct. 5, 2006 that he had played a Wiens at Wintergrass2005 and "ordered one shortly after that."
> 
> I placed my deposit and order with Jamie in Feb. '04, a year before that.  Imagine what it felt like when Dan came on the Cafe again with pictures of his new Wiens in '07 while the rest of us on the list couldn't get any idea from Jamie when we might expect delivery. 
> 
> And again, it's not so much that the wait is long. It was the lack of honesty about the length of the wait and lack of communication and being treated badly when one asks for communication. Of course Dan is a happy Wiens customer. I would hope that he might understand why others aren't. 
> 
> Jim
> 
> (I received a written contract dated April 30, '04, which acknowledges receipt of the deposit in Feb.just to clarify dates in my previous post.)


This was exactly my point I made back way back in post #74.

As far as the tone of this thread goes. I see absolutely no tone what so ever. Just disgruntled Wiens and would be Wiens owners. People just telling their tales..stories..misfortunes. There is even alot heartfelt statements on how to avoid this kind of mess. How to be a businessman vs an Artist. We all know theres been other threads that have went further south than this one. Unfortunantly this incident happened for whatever reason its a story that neesds to be told..even if feelings..reputations etc get scarred. The only name calling was in the OP...taken out of context...only 2 people know for sure. Theres a reason this thread has been allowed to continue. Suck it up. For the very most part posters have swayed away from slander..name calling ..whatever...Good taste has prevailed over something that has left a bad taste in alot of mouths. It could be worse.

----------


## G. Fisher

Very well stated Scotti. I think your summary is an accurate account of the thread.

----------


## journeybear

I agree - I think this discussion has been mostly civil, and judging from the number of posts and knowing how passionately most members feel about such issues, it's commendable how most posters have kept their feelings in check.

I can't speak from personal experience on this issue, though of course I have endured similar experiences in other areas, and most facets of this matter have been explored much more fully by others compared to anything I could contibute. But there is one aspect that I feel has not been addressed: 




> Another time I sent more $ at his request because he said he needed a down payment on a house. In all, he had $5000 of my money for over 4 years.


How could a builder go to a client asking for money for something like that? Non-building issues are the _builder's_ concern, not the _customer's!_ Hopefully he's not still living at his parent's house - resophil's story includes a visit in 2001 - but I wonder if he's actually building instruments as his sole means of support, or doing it in his spare time. It just seems to be taking far too long, when compared with the other builders' time frames mentioned here, and seems his time is disproportionally devoted to other uses.

Not the central issue, of course, but I can't help wondering, as this would certainly impact completion and delivery dates. And then there's the whole borrowing from Walt to pay Jim deal ...  :Disbelief:

----------


## Cornelius Morris

I also have a mandolin on order from Jamie Wiens, and have paid him a significant amount of money already.  He has always been pleasant and not abusive in my contacts with him, and he has sent me photographs of the mandolin under construction.  I haven't yet asked him for an estimated date of completion--and this is not to criticize those who have--although he's a little more than a year past what he estimated when I signed on.   Just my experience so far, and not an evaluation in any way on anyone else's dealings with Wiens.   And this is also not to question the understandable concern of those who believe that their instrument may have been set aside while another (later) customer's was finished.

What bothers me is that the OP (MandoCowboy) presented the web site, and quoted from it, as if it were independent from himself:

"Wiens Mandolins has some serious issues as this website declares

http://www.custominstrumentwatchdog.com/

Jamie Wiens labled as a "Poster Child" for being unscrupulous.

Check it out."

Kathryn Stark (post #71) made clear that the site in question was in fact set up by the OP, who, as others have pointed out, has several times tried to sell, through the Mandolin Cafe Classifieds, his spot in Wiens' production line, while suppressing the issues concerning it.  I believe that the OP should have made very clear at the outset, whatever the merits of the complaints, that the web site in question was his own.

----------


## Links

Dittos to those remarks regarding the "civil" tone to this thread.  I think this thread has been a much needed wake-up call to Mr. Wiens and anyone else who might have a similar business model.  It has also served to illustrate that the vast majority of luthiers take their work seriously and approach it is a manner in which they can be proud.

Ken Walthan, I think hit the nail on the head regarding getting your fanny out of bed and getting to work.  In an earlier post I mentioned that much of what luthiers do is of an artistic nature (I do consider them artists), while  a considerable part is production work.  Production work requires attention to detail, but not using all of your artists mental skills.  To do any of it first requires getting up and getting going!

I do not completely understand why making a mandolin closer to Loar specifications, particularly after you have done a numer of them, would require that much more time, but will defer to Dan B. on that matter.

Maybe the best part of this thread is that Mr. Wiens reputation can be salvaged.  I will take a huge dose of good will and a lot of hard work.  I do not know his age, but it sounds like he is young enough to get this behind him and use it as a learning experience.  Of course, the first part of that is recognizing that there is a problem and you are part of it!  Hopefully, he will tale ownership and do that!

----------


## billhay4

Re Tommando's comments about not taking deposits:
While this may relieve certain problems created by the luthier's failure to complete instruments on time, it creates another problem: buyer's who fail to complete a deal when the mandolin is finished because their own "circumstances" have changed and they have no money invested in the deal.
It's a problem either way as I see it. The only real solution is to build instruments and sell them when they are finished. First come, first served.
This is a good model IMHO for a small builder, but, of course, no large manufacturing enterprise works this way unless they control both making and selling. If they don't, they have to take orders and money up front.
Still, were I a professional builder instead of the occasional amateur that I am, I think I'd make what I want and sell it when I finished the instruments.
None of this really has much to do with Mr. Wiens' problems and I'll refrain from commenting on those.
Bill

----------


## Chris Biorkman

Cornelius: are you sure those pics aren't the same ones he's been sending to Walt and Jim?

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Cornelius: are you sure those pics aren't the same ones he's been sending to Walt and Jim?


 :Laughing:  I am not sure if we should accumulate more doubt than evidence forces us to. I suppose a customer should recognize if a photo resembles his personal specifications. The more probable thing would be, IMHO, that this builder tends to start many instruments but has trouble finishing them (80/20 rule?), which would produce genuine individual pictures, just not the real thing.

----------


## Omer

I agree with danb and JeffD, the length and tone of this thread is unsettling.

----------


## catmandu2

> I agree with danb and JeffD, the length and tone of this thread is unsettling.


IMO, the _topic_ is _unsettling_.  Considering this, the _tone_ has been amazingly civil.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

> I agree with danb and JeffD, the length and tone of this thread is unsettling.


You might feel differently if you were the one who was out five grand.

----------


## goose 2

I ordered a Gilchrist back in 1999 or 2000.  It arrived 4 1/2 years after I placed the order which was spot on when I was told it would be delivered. 
Maybe Steve Gilchrist does not consider himself an "artist" but that mandolin was a work of art. My point is that you can get the absolute highest quality in an instrument as well as assurance that it will be delivered when promised.  You just need to select your builder carefully.

----------


## Kirk Albrecht

Maybe we're at a place where we can agree on a few things that go beyond the realm of speculation or mere opinion in this topic -

1. Walt and Jim have not had a good experience in ordering a mandolin from Jamie Wiens, including lots of negative communication, and apparent use of deposits / funds for applications other than their build.
2. other people who have placed orders with Jamie have a mixed experience - some positive, some not
3. Jamie's business practices need to reflect transparency and integrity on a level recognized not just in the mandolin building community but in the world of craftspeople as a whole.
4. there are lots of risks for both client and builder when placing a custom order.
5. the use of a written contract is sound practice when money is changing hands.
6. Jamie's work as a mandolin luthier is excellent.
7. we should never be about sullying anyone's reputation, but in service to this community, fair representation of bad experiences can be good for all.
8. whatever is the cause of Jamie's long delays and quirky dealings with finances should be resolved as soon as possible to allow him freedom to pursue his craft and build/maintain a solid reputation, as most builders who frequent this board do.

I am afraid if we keep beating this horse it will turn into something we don't want.  I do think the tone of the thread has been pretty amazing, given what I have experienced over the years on other music forums!

I continue to value this place and hold it in the highest regard.  Kudos to Scott and the admins for their excellent work.

----------


## Chuck Naill

> banging on an Epi MM-20 for 25 years


Was that a custom built Epiphone MM-20? How long did you have to wait?  :Grin: 

My little Eastman is looking better everyday. Perhaps people won't be so quick to say buy local anymore.  :Cool:

----------


## Scotti Adams

' Nuff Said??

I think so. Dont think anything else can be said. Lessons learned on all fronts.

Peace

----------


## Don Grieser

goose 2, that was exactly the same experience I had ordering my Gilchrist in 1998. Except my wait was only 18 months--delivered in Oct 1999. I guess we know when the Gilchrist boom happened. I know of at least 6 people who played mine at festivals and ordered one. It's one of those.

----------


## mdlorenz

> I placed my deposit and order with Jamie in Feb. '04, a year before that.  Imagine what it felt like when Dan came on the Cafe again with pictures of his new Wiens in '07 while the rest of us on the list couldn't get any idea from Jamie when we might expect delivery. 
> 
> Jim
> (I received a written contract dated April 30, '04, which acknowledges receipt of the deposit in Feb.just to clarify dates in my previous post.)


Maybe there were extenuating circumstances, but maybe not. Without explanation this would infuriate me.

----------


## JeffD

> What bothers me is that the OP (MandoCowboy) presented the web site, and quoted from it, as if it were independent from himself:
> 
> I believe that the OP should have made very clear at the outset, whatever the merits of the complaints, that the web site in question was his own.


Exactly. This cannot be as charitably considered as can perhaps sloppy business practices and missed deadlines.

----------


## yankees1

> ' Nuff Said??
> 
> I think so. Dont think anything else can be said. Lessons learned on all fronts.
> 
> Peace


   DITTO ! Nuff said! Time to move on!

----------


## Mark Walker

I've read all six (at this point) pages of this topic, and see a number of valid observations on both sides of the coin.   I think Kirk in post #143 summed everything up nicely.  

I've had two custom-built mandolins by the same luthier.  During the construction of the second one, he was bitten on the hand by a brown recluse spider, and very nearly lost the use of that hand.  This obviously delayed the completion of my mandolin by a number of months.  The luthier kept me appraised of the medical attention and progress he was making, and when his hand was healed to the point where he felt confident continuing with the build, he let me know.   Honest and open communication (and a downright friendly rapport by both parties, at least in my case) goes a long way.  

Regardless, there are many valid observations and learning experiences shared in what I think to be an admirably civil manner by many of my Cafe' colleagues.  

Thanks to Scott and the moderators for letting this continue for 150+ posts.

----------


## Kirk Albrecht

> Was that a custom built Epiphone MM-20? How long did you have to wait? 
> 
> My little Eastman is looking better everyday. Perhaps people won't be so quick to say buy local anymore.


 :Laughing: 
This was my wife's wedding present to me in 1983 with no knowledge of mandolins, only that I wanted on after hearing Bill Monroe (how may other people did the same thing??). Delivered on our wedding night!

It has been "customized" over the years - neck slightly warped, pickguard broken off by an over-zealous 4 year old seeing what it sounded like!  But it's solid woods and sounds OK.

----------


## danb

> Maybe there were extenuating circumstances, but maybe not. Without explanation this would infuriate me.


A lot of what went into my own build (one of the extenuating circumstances) was pretty public here, but you'd really need to have your "fanatic" ears on to have seen it all or understand it. I'll try to make a little sense of it here.

There was a huge amount of research done to learn and compile all the information we could on Loars. A lot of this unfolded very publically in the 'Loar picture of the Day" thread, just check the boards in that timeframe. Also take a look at what is in the mandolin archive- I put in a ton of research on details, and Jamie & I both got a lot of help from other members of the board here and wider mandolin community in the process. Check how many of my near 5000 posts relate to vintage mandolins and you'll get an idea of the time I put in for reasearch.  

I was thinking the results would benefit the rest of the folks on Jamie's list, but I also didn't think that I was horning in and causing years to be added to the clock. I wanted to document Loars as thoroughly as possible for the benefit of other builders too. The archive and my posts here on the subject are my passion, and represent years of my life. 

So.. extenuating circumstance #1 is this- I believe Jamie was infected by the passion I and others had for this, and it was firing his creative juices at a time of much darkness for him. The "perfect storm" of Loar passion was right at it's peak when all of this went down. Neither of us put a gun to the other's head, and I paid no "line jump fee" or any of the other hogwash I've heard suggested. He doesn't make just one at a time either, they progress together in logical steps.

There were other extenuating circumstances that had more of an impact on his build time. They have been hinted at here- Jamie had them in his personal life both before and after my build completed. None of them should be dragged  any further through the mud than they already have been.

I hope the story comes to a satisfying end for all.

----------


## journeybear

> DITTO ! Nuff said! Time to move on!


For goodness' sake, if _you_ want to move on, move on. Same goes for anyone else. If someone has something to say, let them say it. I'm not saying this is the place to just vent, but people obviously are not done. When they are, the thread will wither, as is the nature of these things. Meanwhile, there are _a few_ other threads in progress to which you may redirect your attention.

----------


## Scott Tichenor

A point of clarification.

The reason I opened this thread was to represent the interests of those who have paid large sums or paid in full, have been paid in full for _years_ and have not been give any indication of a finish date. Some of those on top of that insult have received harsh and nasty responses--if they were lucky enough to receive any communication at all--when they've asked for a status update, and not just those on that web site. I've had plenty of these forwarded to me and they're parked in my GMail archive.

I don't endorse "gotcha" web sites that started this thread, and trying to sell a spot on that wait list was inappropriate in itself. This is not about the length of time to build--quality instruments can be a complex problem. It's not about the cost or down payments. It's about exceedingly rude behavior and customer service that qualifies for nightmare status and a flippant attitude from the person that now has your money. I've been seeing evidence of the problem here for several years and this situation needs to be rectified. Attempts to redirect the customer back to the party they're purchasing from is always the appropriate response, but as I've already stated, that's a failed process here.

The truth is, there are still customers waiting who are now afraid to raise their voice for fear of retribution. Someone explain to me how you defend that?

That some of you are uncomfortable with this discussion, that's unfortunate. Situations that are clearly so wrong and unlawful still exist, and I see no road ahead where this is going to be resolved, nor a willingness on the builder's part to rectify the situation.

That's what makes me uncomfortable.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

> For goodness' sake, if _you_ want to move on, move on. Same goes for anyone else. If someone has something to say, let them say it. I'm not saying this is the place to just vent, but people obviously are not done. When they are, the thread will wither, as is the nature of these things. Meanwhile, there are _a few_ other threads in progress to which you may redirect you attention.


I totally agree. What right does anyone have, aside from the moderators, to decide when this conversation has run it's course. If you don't like the topic of this thread, go post on another and leave the rest of us to our discussion.

That's about the third time someone has tried to end the conversation and I think it's pretty annoying.  

This thread is very important because it will ultimately prevent people from getting ripped off in all liklihood.

----------


## journeybear

Well put, Scott, and thanks for reminding all of us why this thread has been allowed to persist, and why it is so important. This issue strikes a very poignant chord in a great many members' hearts. That said, it's worth noting that it's all too common for us to go off on tangents, and it's good to get "snapped back" from time to time. I was trying to point out (what seemed obvious to me) that people are not done discussing this yet, and a call for posters to stop - essentially, telling us to shut up - was premature and insensitive. Thanks again for allowing this discussion to continue, and I do hope people will feel the support and sympathy they need to contribute, and also that in so doing someone is able to come up with a solution.

----------


## AlanN

Clearly, discovery is still underway, with more information coming out about this guy and his practices, and the *larger than heretofore known* number of victims. Rather than some gruesome accident scene gawking, this thread can only shed light on the damage, and help some future buyer in the mandolin consignment decision process.

I agree. Don't read it if you don't want to, but surely don't proselytize.

----------


## mandopete

> A point of clarification.
> 
> The truth is, there are still customers waiting who are now afraid to raise their voice for fear of more of retribution. Someone explain to me how you defend that?


Retribution in what way?  Can you explain further Scott?  

This is pretty ugly.

----------


## fatt-dad

From the words of Scott, I have a real bad feeling in the pit of my stomach and I'm not involved.   I just know how I feel in these sorts of confrontation and just how far I go to avoid this sort of stuff.  It's really sad. . .

f-d

----------


## Stephen Perry

I hesitate to jump in.  But.  A neutral party engaged by mutual agreement of the maker and his clients might well be able to aid in negotiating a settlement with respect to the outstanding custom orders. I would include a repayment schedule for those seeking return of funds and a reasonable production schedule for outstanding instruments.  Such a course might take the pressure off all parties a bit and provide a vehicle for non-emotional communications.  

That general type of structure works reasonably well, but only if the participants are willing to work within that structure.

The alternative seems to be fighting for scraps, or fawning and begging for instruments.  Seems quite unsavory.  I'm sure there's an equitable solution to the situation, even if it involves some compromise.  I'm also not sure all the participants would go along with it, but it might be worth a try.

Please, no flames.

----------


## 8ch(pl)

Could there be a danger that other Canadian builders will lose out because a customer won't chance a cross border new mandolin commission?  The name on the headstock needs to be regarded,  not being true to one's word diminishes that name, no matter what the quality of the product.  The quality of the person diminishes when they answer a customer's concerns with scorn and  disrespect.

----------


## hank

deleted because this fire has enough fuel.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

Me too.

----------


## Links

Chris & Journeybear  -  you both expressed my opinion exactly regarding ending this thread  -  thanks!

Great explanation Scott!  Because Scott and other moderators run a tight ship, threads rarely get out of control here.  I don't always agree with Scott and have been mildly chastised a couple of times (when I thought I was right), and probably will again, but Scott tends to nip things in the bud if he thinks they are going off in the wrong direction.  Kudos all the way around!

----------


## Randy Smith

> I agree with danb and JeffD, the length and tone of this thread is unsettling.



No one can argue your feeling that the tone is "unsettling" since you believe it.  I have no reason to think you aren't completely honest and have no way of disproving you.  Myself, I'm comfortable with this tone and just don't hear the lynch mob that someone referred to dozens of postings earlier.  I appreciate very much Scott's allowing us to have this conversation, which is  as much a continuation of an ongoing discussion as much as the thread is really new itself.  

And because it's a continuation, the thread is a long.  That's fine.  How much longer it will go on I don't know.  Whether it will be the last discussion of this matter I don't know.  But I'll keep reading for now.

----------


## Bob Borzelleri

Wow.  I go to Vegas for a three day woodturning class and all hell breaks loose.   :Disbelief: 

After seven pages, it appears to me that the old axiom is still true, "Where a person stands on an issue depends on where they sit." 

People who have seen the positive side of a Weins Mandolin experience see things one way and people who have seen the other side have a totally different story to tell.

Then there are people who have no direct experience with Weins but who have opinions on artistry, patience, exclusivity and other concepts that would appear to serve to support Mr. Weins and the manner of behavior that is under discussion.  There are also people who are outraged at the notion that someone (artist or not) might be able to take money from some people and not deliver the promised product.

I think that anyone with any experience with custom built items knows a couple of things right out of the box; 1) they are usually expensive and 2) they are not generally sitting on a shelf waiting for you to pick them up.  

The former issue is a given and the latter is typically due to real factors involving previous orders, availability of materials and that which reasonable people should reasonably expect from a craftsperson who is working in good faith to actually get contracted work done.

Should I decide to part with several thousand dollars for a single instrument, I will expect that the builder work in good faith to deliver what he/she can while making the sort of effort that real working people make every day of their lives.  My desire to obtain a particular instrument should not be construed by the builder as license to simply not work on my instrument because he/she feels that my desire gives them the ability to do so.

I once created a short list of builders who I would consider contracting with for my "once and for all" :Confused:  mandolin.  Weins was on the list.  The list is now a bit lighter.

Scott hit the nail smack on the head; consider this a countersink.

----------


## goose 2

Don-
Yep that was the Gilchrist boom.  If memory serves me, I called Dexter in '99 and there was a 2 1/2 wait at about 9k for  the instrument.  I thought that was too long to wait and kinda expensive.    When I called back a year or so later it was 4 1/2 year wait and 10k, so I placed an order.   Shows how much I know.

----------


## R. Kane

I have some family history that parallels this sad story. I thought I recognized the characteristic denial from the quotes from the OP's website (however suspect) and JW's own post, and DB alluded to it. If this is the case, let's hope that those with influence in JW's life can work with him to recognize and address it, while the rest of us can let JW know that we value his skills and his passion to create fine mandolins, and that we hope that he can climb out of the hole. Without asking you all to join hands and sing Kumbaya, let's recognize that deep down, JW probably isn't all that happy with himself, and has the ability to change. He certainly isn't alone in this - everyone has problems, some of which leak out from personal to business life. I'm not ready to pay to get on his list, but may be one day. That's all I can offer, but I'll bet that there are some others that would, too. 

IMO, this has been a worthwhile MC thread. We have learned much from wise people here. I feel worst for those who have been or are now innocently entangled, and hope that they are made whole. And even if I am wrong in my deduction, JW can still use our positive thoughts. My apologies for the preachy overtones, but I've seen the movie. Keep talking, and smoke 'em if you've got 'em.

----------


## jim_n_virginia

What a unfortunate and sad mess all around ... but when the dust settles I think I have to sympathize with those who are out $5 and $7K. That's a LOT of money for most people including me ESPECIALLY in these troubling economic times.

I understand about not crowding an artist and letting them finish their work even through a long wait time. Mandolins are not the only product there are long wait times. Many things handmade you have to wait for. I have waited 2 years just for custom handmade gun leather!

The bottom line (to me anyway's) is a man is only as good as his word. IF you take someone's deposit and you tell them their instrument will be done in an approximate time and it is not done by that time integrity insists that you contact that person and explain WHY it is not being finished on or about the agreed upon time. And you should have a REALLY good reason not something vague like ... "I was going through a rough time"

I can almost understand having a little understanding and patience with maybe like 3 months over due ... or 6 months. But a YEAR? 2 YEARS?

COME ON! Being an artist does not excuse you from honoring your word.

Thanks Scott for allowing the thread to continue it shows that you are banking that Cafe members will do the right thing.

As as far as some not liking the tone I was thinking to myself that this thread has been amazingly responsible.

I hope things get settled soon!

----------


## GVD

> Chris & Journeybear  -  you both expressed my opinion exactly regarding ending this thread  -  thanks!


I agree with them and you 100%. If I don't like the _tone_ (what ever that means) of a thread I quit reading it. I wasn't planning on posting to this thread but I've gotten so sick of hearing JW's inane _"artist"_ argument bandied about I can't sit on the sidelines anymore.

In the first place he's not an artist. If he quit copying Loars and created a totally new design from his imagination then he might possibly be considered an artist. Until he does that he's a craftsman/artisan but not an artist.

In the second place even if he was an artist what license would that give him to take peoples money, not produce the work he promised to do, then treat his customers so rudely? Most of my friends are actual working artists. They work hard to produce the work they are contracted to do in an expeditious manner. Yes sometimes deadlines slip but none of the sculptors or painters I know berate their customers when it happens. To act like it's somehow all right to excuse poor behavior because someone claims he's an artist is a slap in the face to all the honest hard working _real_ artist out there.




> Retribution in what way?  Can you explain further Scott?


You're kidding right? Kissing your deposit good bye would seem to be the first thing that would happen given this guys M.O.

----------


## Glassweb

"So in short, a business is a business and should be treated as such. If it is a hobby, then you can invent whatever excuses you wish, but you cannot treat them both the same with deposits and promises." (Quote/Darryl Wolfe)

So there you have it... said by someone who's been on the mandolin scene for a _long_ time and knows the score.

----------


## Jeff Harvey

As a business owner for 29yrs, i must say integrity and good reputation is everything. I think we all know that builders sometimes dont meet their estimated completion dates. But that never warrants bad customer treatment no matter how talented they are. People will eventually run out of patience and the builder will have a bad reputation, which is very difficult to reverse. I learned quickly the value of character, integrity and reputation. That is why I have survived 29yrs!

----------


## Dusty

With over 13.000 views and 170+ replies I'd say the Cafe has provided an important forum of discussion , and, has been an unbiased silent observer of the real and perceived issues in this thread.  Knowledge is power and thus, the Cafe has once again provided a service to the mandolin community by allowing varied opinions and discussion.  Hopefully, all will work out for everyone and potential customers will be well informed, and thus, more able to make their buying decisions whether pro or con.  Thank you Mandolin Cafe for your service and efforts.

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

Ultimately - wouldn't we all love to hear that Jamie Wiens has got his act back together & is again making superb instruments,on time & on cost ?. There's been enough said re.the original complaints,but i do get a strong feeling that we'd all love to see JW back on course as a valuable builder. JW hasn't helped himself much in this,& i feel sorry for that. Personally i'm REALLY PO'd by him because he's (almost) taken himself out of Mandolin building re.his reputation. I'd feel exactly the same way if any other builder of note 'threw a wobbler' & began getting antsy re.their building 
practices.
   Let's be honest & face the facts (as far as i see them),we WANT JW's instruments !. We want them _along with_ the instruments of all the other great builders,but not on his current terms & conditions. How would we feel if we'd individually been saving for our 'dream instrument',only to find that our prefered builder had suddenly _thrown all his toys out of his pram_ & was making inordinate demands re.time /cash etc. - i for one would feel outraged !.That's exactly how i feel re.JW at this point. The man is a valuable resource for superb instruments,who in the past has had our respect because he earned it. It's time for him to stop behaving a bit like a spoiled child,cut the excuses & do what he does best (when he does it !),building great instruments. Nobody really wants to see him disappear. It's a bit like when something that we value & enjoy goes wrong & doesn't work properly. We don't want to trash it,simply get it back to working properly again - that's how i personally feel re.Mr Wiens. Let's hope it's sooner rather than later,
                                                                                                          Ivan  :Chicken:

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Knowledge is power and thus, the Cafe has once again provided a service to the mandolin community by allowing varied opinions and discussion. ... Thank you Mandolin Cafe for your service and efforts.


Second that.
We are used to going to the Cafe like to a sanctuary, away from the harsh world out there, comfortably chatting about harmless things like string change and what pick to use; thus many have felt bad about the harsh world suddenly washing around their feet in this thread. But it was not in vain. The Cafe proved to be a place not only to hide in and talk in hushed voices about "you know who", but to enable each of us to walk out there a better informed person, and not at each other's cost but to each other's advantage.

----------


## Jim DeSalvio

I have been reading this over the last 2 days.  I feel for those caught up in this web.  I have experience with 2 builds.  One, with Ken Ratcliff, who built me a wonderful "Econo Mando".  Great experience, and delivered on time.  My favorite mandolin.  Thanks Cafe for guiding me to him.

I might be caught up in a web of my own, with a guitar build.  I have $500.00 invested with a builder that I would not consider to be big time, but might get there someday.  I started this at the end of 2006.  The guitar is way past due, but I have not been pressing the issue, and there has been no hint of negative communications in any way.  At this point, I am very happy to sit back and wait.  Not sure how I would feel if I had paid it off, and was left sitting.

Very interesting reading.  It has taught me to look before you leap.

----------


## mando_dan

Wow, this has been a very interesting thread on many levels.

A small point- the board brings incredible leverage as it is THE place for mandolin folks to meet and chat.  Many years ago I had a problem with an online seller that I simply could not resolve.  By posting my experience here as clearly and objectively as I could, I was able to finally get the seller's attention (they had ceased all communication with me) and get the matter resolved the matter satisfactorily resolved (I got the mandolin I had paid for).  Without the board, I don't think this would have happened less the judicial system be brought to into play which would have a wasted effort due to the meager cost of the instrument.  Thank you mandolin cafe for creating a forum on which problems like these can be brought into the public domain.

For those queasy about the thread, I see it as sunlight which tends to expose the good and bad on both sides of any dispute.  And that's a good thing for all involved.  Hopefully the dispute is fairly settled and we can all take something away from the discussion be we builders, prospective buyers, or simply the interested mandolin community.

----------


## AlanN

And to join the chorus, thanks to Scott for his support of Truth, Justice and the Mandolin Way! If we here knew (and I don't) all of the fires he has fought on our behalf behind the scenes, I think we'd all be flabbergasted. 

It's very clear: He tunes because he cares!  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## G. Fisher

After reading the last post from Scott my question is.  If he has deposits and additional payments and in some cases full payment. Where is the money and why can't he refund those who have asked for thier money returned?

----------


## Stephen Perry

Again, pardon my intrusion.  I have no dog in this fight.

There's a good possibility of an equitable way out.

Get JW and the buyers onboard
Get an intermediary.
Get some help for JW in organization and planning.

Some people simply get lost and don't handle it well.  I don't know whether that's the case here.  At such times, applying pressure simply hardens the situation.  Generally an understanding and helping hand proves very useful.  The roles:

1.  Intermediary for communications, to get the emotion out
2.  Someone to assist in organization and planning
3.  Someone to put together a plan that all or most can agree to.

This role is often provided by bankruptcy trustees or negotiated by attorneys.  That's a rough road.  No reason a single friendly and cognizant individual located near JW couldn't do it.  

Perhaps quite a few mandolins simply need an organized effort to complete, making the buyers happy.  Perhaps remaining payments on those would be sufficient to run JW and provide some, if not all refunds.  Perhaps an agreement could be hammered out on % of future payments for completed production mandolins to go to refunds.  Essentially, the disappointed are creditors.  I am aware of negotiated agreements where all incoming revenues go first to a trustee of some kind, with the revenues being dispersed as agreed.  

Regardless, I would rather see an approach made to constructive rebuilding of relationships, business and personal, and resolution via negotiation rather than confrontation.  This doesn't always work; some people can get caught up in their own drama and ignore clear proposals and other formal mechanisms.  Why most people in disputes each hire their own representative.  But here, with a relatively small business and a fairly simple matter, a team of legal experts seems excessive.  Perhaps an accountant to handle the books, an attorney to review any agreement, and a bank to create, hold, and distribute the business funds.  

If JW is of relatively limited means, this might provide a path to resolving current issues and getting JW on track to having a productive and well controlled business.  Once one gets used to a structured working environment, working in a structured manner becomes a habit.  

Just some additional thoughts, no flames please.  I'm simply looking for a silver lining here, with the outcomes being:

1.  A productive and controlled JW business (he really would benefit from a business minded partner!)
2.  Satisfaction of existing clients
3.  Security and confidence for future clients

The last part might be difficult to arrange.  Selling through a trusted intermediary business on consignment could provide a mechanism.  But that's for the future.  Currently, getting the business in order and existing commitments satisfied seems a very high priority.  

The alternative is that one or more of the dissatisfied will elevate the dispute to the next level.  Once one starts grabbing for assets, the race is on, with few gaining, most losing.  The biggest loss being to the mandolin community.

Please pardon the rant, I just don't see complaints online going anywhere most of the time.  Concrete action works better.

Good luck all.

----------


## Scott Tichenor

You have the answer, Stephen, in a perfect world.

Now make it happen.

Since posting that last night I've received (with pardons to the people who contacted me) two more bizarre sad tales of current customers, both afraid to say anything public for fear of making matters worse for themselves. Honestly, this isn't my fight, so I'd appreciate it if customers of TAFKAJW would simply contact him instead of me with their concerns. Or tell your truth in public so the real story will finally be open for everyone to see.

I'm signing off from this one.

Good luck, you're really going to need it.

To the customers of TAFKAJW: please stop contacting me. I cannot assist.

----------


## mandopete

> Good luck, you're really going to need it.



That doesn't sound good.

 :Frown:

----------


## Chuck Naill

> After reading the last post from Scott my question is.  If he has deposits and additional payments and in some cases full payment. Where is the money and why can't he refund those who have asked for thier money returned?


I have been curious about this also. As they say, you cannot get blood from a turnip. From the post where more money was requested because of a down payment commitment, that makes me think that some or all of the funds have been invested elsewhere. 

I think Steve Perry is spot on and it appears he is offering his legal/mediary services/expertise.  The problem is compounded for Steve or anyone if the funds are not present.

----------


## G. Fisher

> You have the answer, Stephen, in a perfect world.
> 
> Now make it happen.
> 
> Since posting that last night I've received (with pardons to the people who contacted me) two more bizarre sad tales of current customers, both afraid to say anything public for fear of making matters worse for themselves. Honestly, this isn't my fight, so I'd appreciate it if customers of TAFKAJW would simply contact him instead of me with their concerns. Or tell your truth in public so the real story will finally be open for everyone to see.
> 
> I'm signing off from this one.
> 
> Good luck, you're really going to need it.
> ...




With this being said. Is there anyone here with a legal background willing to help these people wade through this mess?

----------


## Fretbear

> It's not about the cost or down payments. It's about exceedingly rude behavior and customer service that qualifies for nightmare status and a flippant attitude from the person that now has your money.


It's Mr. T's house and he said it best above. The exact behavior described above, while relished by none, is also amongst the most very dangerous kind that can be tried on with certain people who are far less understanding than your average mandolin enthusiast. 
As a proud Canadian I also hope that no one here will be put off from placing orders with our other fine world-class Canadian mandolin luthiers, none of whom I will name here, as they would not want their names in any way associated with this debacle.

"A reputation takes years to build and moments to destroy...."

----------


## Stephen Perry

Neither can I assist personally.  The paths aren't all that clear or difficult, simply takes someone willing spearhead the effort.  And a contact other than JW near him.  You disappointed buyers, contact each other, set up a teleconference, develop a proposal, select a rational spokesperson, and have that individual set up a face to face conference with JW.  

I must say, with the amount of money involved in one of these mandolins, I'd have visited the builder already, in a friendly way.  Asked "What can I do?  Can I sand this part here?"   A little bit of help like that will really build a fire!

But do get organized.  Seriously.  And I highly suggest working towards a friendly resolution if at all feasible, even if it takes lots of tongue biting, patience, and effort.  With each other, as well as JW!  Is there no consumer protection agency in Canada?

Either that, or sue the fellow and drive him into the Canadian version of bankruptcy, have the trustee auction off all his stuff, and collect 15 cents on the dollar.  Certainly the effectiveness of Internet fora complaints is low.  Although this discussion has been pretty good - only one quiet troll worked in that I noticed.  Pretty good.

Good luck.

----------


## yankees1

> I totally agree. What right does anyone have, aside from the moderators, to decide when this conversation has run it's course. If you don't like the topic of this thread, go post on another and leave the rest of us to our discussion.
> 
> That's about the third time someone has tried to end the conversation and I think it's pretty annoying.  
> 
> This thread is very important because it will ultimately prevent people from getting ripped off in all liklihood.


  You know, you are right ! I originally thought the responses were overkill but I was wrong ! It seems that more and more posts  involve customers who have had or are experiencing problems with custom orders. This may be one of the most important threads in educating the consumer and business owner. My apology!

----------


## Andrew DeMarco

Since Canada may lose some business to this tiff, here's all the Canadian luthiers who offer mandolins that I could find:

Sohn Stringed Instruments
http://www.mandolinmaker.com

Apitius Mandolins
http://www.apitiusmandolins.com/

Brian Dean Labraid Mandolins
http://www.labraid.ca/

Nyberg Instruments
http://www.guitarmaker.ca/

Stan Pope
http://www.roadtotheisles.ca/

Larry Stamm
http://www.larrystamm.com/

Peter Cox
http://www.petercox.ca/

Are there more? :Mandosmiley:

----------


## MikeEdgerton

A Google search will now associate the names of these fine luthiers with the person that this thread is discussing. I don't know if that was a good idea.

----------


## Bertram Henze

Mike Edgerton's point just made me delete this, it's probably one of those ideas the world is better off without.

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Since Canada may lose some business to this tiff, here's all the Canadian luthiers who offer mandolins that I could find:
> 
> Sohn Stringed Instruments
> http://www.mandolinmaker.com
> 
> Apitius Mandolins
> http://www.apitiusmandolins.com/
> 
> Brian Dean Labraid Mandolins
> ...


Michael Heiden
Larry Muth.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

TAFKAJW? Huh?

----------


## Eric F.

> TAFKAJW? Huh?


As in, The Artist Formally Known As Prince. ...

----------


## journeybear

> TAFKAJW? Huh?


The Artist Formerly Known As Jamie Wiens. Scott's wry wit at its best!  :Laughing:

----------


## Links

Steve Perry has excellent points  -   but (and a big one at that)  -  Jamie has to be willing to be a part of the solution.  To this point, it appears that he is somewhat in denial as to him having any responsibility with the problem.  I like Steve's last solution regarding the "wait list" members coming together.  That could be difficult, however, if some of them are close to having their mandolins finished.  I think that is the "retribution" that Scott was referring to when he mentioned that some on the list feared it.  

As an architect (golf course) for 35 years, much of my job has been settling disputes between owners and contractors often involving enough money to buy ten or more of Jamie's mandolins.  To settle these disputes, there has to be a clear path much like Steve pointed out.  Once the "roles" are defined, it often a relief for the parties involved  -  particularly the contractor, as he knows what has to be done for their final payment.  Of course written contracts are crucial and everything, and I mean everything, needs to be spelled out.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> TAFKAJW? Huh?


This might shed some light.

----------


## mtucker

> Quoted from "Spruce:"
> 
> "Well then, you'll have to add Mike Kemnitzer, Steve Gilchrist, John Sullivan, John Monteleone, and several others to your feces-list..."
> 
> With regard to Steve Gilchrist, I really hope I am misinterpreting your comment.   Steve and I had an email agreement.  He gave me a delivery date, progress photos of the numbered instrument as he built it, and had it delivered to me two weeks earlier than promised!
> 
> He was a delight to work with and has continued to immediately respond to any questions I have had for him in the three and half years since I received the mandolin.
> 
> By the way, Steve doesn't refer to himself as an "artist" (although those that have enjoyed his artistry might disagree with him).  He, like you, calls himself a "wood butcher."  
> ...


Ditto here. 

I Ordered my Model 5jr in July, and it's about complete for February delivery. No lists anymore. If you want one, and can come up with the coin to make one of his build slots, then you're good to go. 

Steve is a fabulous guy, with a great sense of humor. Regular updates and delighful unprompted progress pics from OZ that show up in my morning inbox. The man is the best!
 :Mandosmiley:

----------


## djweiss

..

----------


## pickloser

There is no practical legal recourse once this amount of money is in the hands of a person who is neither trustworthy nor concerned about even the appearance of trustworthiness.  Contracts dealing with just thousands of dollars are only helpful between folks who seek to be clear about what the agreement is and to abide by it.  Enforcement of a contract requires time and/or money.  To expect someone to volunteer to pursue legal remedies or to arbitrate this matter is overly hopeful, I think.  Besides, a judgment or decision can only be usefully enforced when there are assets to seize.  I suspect Mr. Weins's attitude would be no different if there were a contract.   

He seems unable to act even in his own best interests.  Usually, one doesn't have to rely so much on trust and good character if the other person can be expected just to do what is good for business.  Perhaps TAFKAJW really does believe his "art" gives him license to take payment without triggering obligation.  Perhaps, he really believes his unwashed common garden variety customers should patiently and indefinitely wait and count themselves lucky, while he takes time to pursue other "passions" and to produce instruments for more important, higher-profile customers.  But, in furtherance of only his own agenda, he should at least note that most of the rest of us don't see it that way and will not knowingly deal with him once we know he has little regard for the legitimate expectations of others.  

Just my opinion.

----------


## Stephen Perry

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/C-46/p...a:l_X-gb:s_380

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/oca-bc....h_ca02349.html

For an individual, initially pursuing the issue through the government consumer affairs entity often proves useful.  I end up doing this about once a year.  Of course, my complaints are crisp, focused, detail the facts, grounds for dissatisfaction, and what exactly I want.  I also include all relevant documentation, annotated, dated, numbered, and appropriately referenced in my complaint.  This isn't any particular trouble.

The same type of information - perhaps even the same complaint - may well serve to interest a local district attorney.  A quick search turns up criminal acts associated with running a business, taking money, and not delivering.  I do not know what kind of equitable powers the judicial system in Canada offers, but I would expect that compensation to victims is in there somewhere.

I strongly suggest moving rapidly as individuals in as friendly a manner as possible, as a group (to avoid "retribution"), or if neither of those options are viable, then walking away and forgetting about it. For a private solution, an attorney usually knows what to do.  I searched and there are indeed attorneys in BC.

In the alternative, I imagine that the simultaneous arrival of a number of very well documented complaints at the consumer protection agency, preferably at the desk of someone expecting them, might trigger at least some action.  How that would be received on JW's part remains a question.  Would he really fight everyone including the government?  

If that's not to everyone's taste, then shipping off a number of well documents complaints to the DA or equivalent might trigger action.  Again, the response might not be ideal, but law enforcement generally does get a response.  

If nobody involved has 1) begun formal attempts at resolution from the private side, 2) filed a complaint with the consumer protection agency, 3) filed a complaint with law enforcement, or 4) gone for a friendly visit, then I have to question their seriousness in gaining a resolution.

I understand that it's easier to avoid confrontation, difficult to make friends with difficult people, hard to put together good complaints, and very very easy to make websites, complain online, and generally huff and puff.  Huff and puff won't do it.  

Gather evidence from the  demonstrable facts at hand (have a canceled check for payment?), evaluate the options (the real options, not the whining online options), and execute.  

I have no interest in this matter and do not wish to be formally involved.

----------


## Spruce

Yikes...   :Frown:

----------


## G. Fisher

> I strongly suggest moving rapidly as individuals in as friendly a manner as possible, as a group (to avoid "retribution"), or if neither of those options are viable, then walking away and forgetting about it. For a private solution, an attorney usually knows what to do.  I searched and there are indeed attorneys in BC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If nobody involved has 1) begun formal attempts at resolution from the private side, 2) filed a complaint with the consumer protection agency, 3) filed a complaint with law enforcement, or 4) gone for a friendly visit, then I have to question their seriousness in gaining a resolution.
> 
> 
> Gather evidence from the  demonstrable facts at hand (have a canceled check for payment?), evaluate the options (the real options, not the whining online options), and execute.  
> ...




Walk away from thousands of dollars paid ?? :Confused:  :Confused: 

It's seems as though most involved tried private resolution only to recieve nasty responses. 

To characterize them as whiners is unfair in my opinion.

----------


## 250sc

This is much like the issue with Ron Oats who makes electric mandolins. He has been evading legal actions for years now. To the best of my knowledge he owes lots of people money/instruments but keeps one step ahead of everyone dispite orders to appear in court. 

Good luck guys.

----------


## Spruce

> So, Spruce. Would you send him wood on spec without payment in advance?


Jamie is a friend, and it saddens me deeply to see this sort of thing happen in our community...

As far as talent goes, he's as good as it gets...

I can only hope he uses those talents to make everything right again....
And I think he will...

----------


## Links

> Walk away from thousands of dollars paid ??
> 
> It's seems as though most involved tried private resolution only to recieve nasty responses. 
> 
> To characterize them as whiners is unfair in my opinion.


Greg  -  I may be wrong,  but I don't think Stephen meant to refer to folks that have lost (or may lose) and nice chunk of money as "whiners".  To me it meant that if you are not willing to take some concrete action, "whining" on line is not going to do any good.  To this point in the thread, I have not gotten the impression that any of the affected parties are "whining", and not to put words in Stephens mouth, but I have not gotten the impression that he thinks so either.

An earlier poster questioned whether contracts make any difference with someone who chooses to ignore them.  He is certainly correct that contracts are not and "end all" to problems like this, but are extremely valuable when problems go beyond the personal level and jump into the realm of the legal system.

----------


## 8ch(pl)

In Canada we have the Better Business Bureau.  here is the URL for the one in British Columbia:

http://gateway.cotr.bc.ca/BritishColumbia/BBBMainBC.asp

----------


## CES

Man...I stopped reading at page 5 and posted a frowny face, but just couldn't stop watching the wreckage...

I've changed the background of my desktop...unfortunately, electrical tape or Bill's method (ie gouging) wouldn't have positively effected my laptop's screen  :Grin:  .

I have no dog in the fight (my "nicest" mando is a Flatiron pancake, for Pete's sake), but have to say that my values are best reflected by Ken and Jim.  I'm a country boy raised on a farm by a horse trainer/football coach (dad) and Marine Raider from WWII (GF) as my most prominent male role models.  Integrity and my word mean everything to me.  I'm well educated, work in a large service industry that is also a huge business (of which our practice is only a small part), and I go to sleep at night knowing I've been honest with people and done my best for them.  If not, I make it right; of course I'm not perfect, but I'm also not afraid to admit it when I screw up.

That needs to happen here.  Given Scott's comments above, Stephen, you're probably absolutely correct that a friendly phone call isn't going to work at this point and a more organized approach is required; a unified approach.  I sincerely wish all of JW's customers the best in their endeavor (my business would be of absolutely no help at all in this circumstance, so, again, no stake in this) and agree that they should proceed steadfastly but quickly in the course of resolution they choose (and I don't mean that to imply anything other than professional/legal courses of action).

I'm going to try to stop rubbernecking at this point.  I'm also impressed that everyone has kept their posts within guidelines thus far and hope that continues.  Thanks to Scott and the moderators for allowing the discussion to continue, and, Dan, I appreciate your relaying your experience, as both sides are clearly valid!

Peace--

----------


## Nelson Peddycoart

A couple of things to remember:  
1).  A great luthier might be an inept businessman (and vice versa).
2).  Check builders out before ordering.

I have found the discussion boards here on the Cafe to be invaluable in researching a builder or a particular model that has caught my wondering eye's attention.

Anyone remember the phrase "Caveat emptor"?  Protect yourself and you won't likely find yourself in trouble.

I am bothered by:
1).  The emails posted on the watchdog site.  If they are accurate, Lord have mercy.
2).  The builder's need to fund one person's refund with another's deposit.
3).  The builder's explanation, which seems a little skewed to me.

Nelson

----------


## Mandoist

Seems to me both parties are at fault for letting such a thing drag on for years! 

If someone's does you wrong in business (in this case, blows you off and does not refund money) go directly to *Small Claims Court*. In most US states it's an extremely quick process if you have even the slightest amount of a paper trail, etc. Sometimes even a verbal agreement is acceptable.

The Better Business Bureau (or Consumer Protection) is a long trail of forms to fill out.

If the like 'victims' in this thread are telling the Truth, the courtroom is pretty much a sure thing. Might not even have to pay a lawyer! I've done it without a legal rep -- with written contracts and/or agreements -- and breezed right on out the door within minutes of the hearing ...and left with my money on the way (or even in-hand once).

----------


## Lefty Luthier

I have followed this thread with great interest and a bit of wonder at how effective the internet is in exposing those who fail to deliver as committed. Those so-called artists who have the "my way or the highway" attitude are bread in my pocket so I encourage them to continue in that vein. In my 49 years of ala carte building for a very select group of customers, I have had only one instance where a customer was not satisfied with a delivery delay. He got his money back next day and actually apologized and reinitiated his order the next week when he found his nearly complete instrument for sale on E-BAY. The best advertising in the world is a satisfied customer, nuff said.

----------


## danb

This is an invitation to contact me if you are one of Jamie's customers waiting on an order. I will tell you what I know and what I think can be done. 

I'm standing in a fairly small group that are optimistic here, perhaps because I have seen more of the entire story. I have been in contact already with some people on Jamie's list. I personally think this thread has been cathartic for the community, but the group of us involved as buyers are the ones that should be talking to each other. Many of the side points here have been a distraction to solving the core issue.

I've seen my own role and integrity questioned here. I want to remind everyone here that I too have an instrument on order at *the bottom* of the list, and I have paid the bulk of the full fee already. I'm confident I will get it! I know Jamie pretty well from working through all the Loar geekery I talked about earlier here, and we share other interests and keep in touch. 

I'm not trying to bail him out or excuse what happened in the past, I want to help out wherever possible to bring this to a happy ending.

----------


## danb

One final comment- Please could we not paint the entire builder community with a broad brush here. Many of the comments made have been deeply offensive to the builder community at large here on the cafe. *All* Custom instrument builders are not on trial here, nor should they be. They are a valued part of the community that give us our voice, please be careful with your words here.

----------


## Cornelius Morris

I too have been in contact with both Jamie and Dan, and I think that Dan's offer is a good one that could lead to some good results, and could cool things down.  Dan's objective is to get the remaining instruments finished and out the door.

----------


## deepmountain

Many on this thread have doubted the veracity of the email quotes attributed to Jamie Wiens posted on the website link in the original post that started this thread. And it's understandable that any reasonable person who attempts to conduct his or her life in a reasonable manner with others would be doubtful of such conduct. In the interest of clearing the air and putting to rest these doubts, I have created a photo album with scans of both Jim's contract with JW and and the pertinent emails along with a few others to give a general picture of the relationship as it developed. This is not being done to "flame" (the terminology that is used here), but only to vindicate Jim and underscore his integrity. 

The emails included start when the mandolin was overdue by about six months. After Jim finally received a refund of his deposit money ($5000 less $450 cancellation fee, which we felt was unfair of JW to keep since he had broken the contract by not producing, but Jim didn't push it since he felt well out of it at that point), he culled out and kept the most pertinent emails. When mandocowboy approached Jim for help and advice he passed them onto him and that is the source of what you see on the aforementioned website. (He also felt that by keeping a cancellation fee, Jamie had bought himself $450 of bad publicity if it ever came to that, and sure enough, sadly, here we are...)

If you want to see the documentation here is the link:

http://gallery.me.com/katstark3#100189

One note: during these exchanges at some point I changed my email address and so there were a couple of times when Jim wasn't sure that Jamie had received his emails so he got a little anxious, and another time I accidentally sent an email multiple times not sure that it had gone through—JW gets down on Jim about that. Just wanted to clarify that point as Jim was not hovering as JW makes it sound, although he was getting very concerned and as it turns out, rightfully so. 

I would also like to say that as an observer and follower of this thread from a bit of a distance that I commend you all for your rational and civil approach to this very sad situation. From the general tone of the conversation I am left with the impression that there isn't anyone on this thread, including Jim and myself, who hasn't been deeply saddened at the least and outraged at the worst by all that has come to light. Furthermore I don't believe there is anyone who really wishes ill for Jamie including us, and in fact, in our case, quite the opposite is true. We would hope that he can learn from this experience, step up and take responsibility and apologize to all those involved, try to make it right, and come out of this a better person who understands the importance of good relationships, not just in business but in all aspects of life. Being a talented artisan and craftsman is surely secondary to being a person of integrity and decency in ones life. After all, it's our relationships with others that makes life so meaningful and in the end is all we have left. The rest is, well, just the rest. (IMHO)

peace,

Kathryn
(Jim's partner)

----------


## Cornelius Morris

Kathryn,
I think that it's worth saying right away that nobody in this thread, if I recall correctly, has questioned Jim's integrity.

----------


## GVD

> One final comment- Please could we not paint the entire builder community with a broad brush here. Many of the comments made have been deeply offensive to the builder community at large here on the cafe. *All* Custom instrument builders are not on trial here, nor should they be. They are a valued part of the community that give us our voice, please be careful with your words here.


I agree with not painting the builder community with a broad brush here and that they are not on trial or should be. What I don't get is _"Many of the comments made have been deeply offensive to the builder community at large here on the cafe."_

Could you please provide some examples? I'm not saying I couldn't have missed one or two but many? Or does the the builder community have some unwritten code to _protect the shield_ like we've seen the Police use when one of theirs is involved in wrong doing? I hope you don't think I'm trying to be argumentative because I'm not. I just have a lot of respect for builders and if I'm doing something offensive to them unknowingly I'd like to know.

----------


## Jill McAuley

I too haven't noticed any derogatory comments aimed at luthiers in this thread, but maybe I missed something. One question I have is this - I was under the impression that when you commission a build that you put an agreed upon deposit down and then pay off the balance when your mandolin is done, but several people dealing with Mr. Weins seem to have paid a considerable amount of cash up front, above and beyond a deposit (including Dan B) - is this common practice or something unique to folks waiting on a Weins? I'm not flaming here or being facetious, simply asking a genuine question.

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## deepmountain

> Kathryn,
> I think that it's worth saying right away that nobody in this thread, if I recall correctly, has questioned Jim's integrity.


C-

Actually I think some have, perhaps inadvertently, by casting doubts that the quotes used were accurate, or less than truthful as some implied, which I think does bring into question the integrity of the one who provided them. And I've noticed it does keep coming up, so, because of that, I offer the link as documentation as to the truthfulness of the statements provided on the OP website link. That's my only intention; not to doubt the intention of others.

K-

----------


## San Rafael

Yeah.  "Deeply offensive."  Really?

This place worships custom builders; they're like the rock stars of the joint.  

One or two of the American "factory" builders routinely get dealt big ol' rations here, week after week, year after year, which could be called "offensive" with much better justification.

----------


## kirksdad

> I agree with not painting the builder community with a broad brush here and that they are not on trial or should be. What I don't get is _"Many of the comments made have been deeply offensive to the builder community at large here on the cafe."_
> 
> Could you please provide some examples? I'm not saying I couldn't have missed one or two but many? Or does the the builder community have some unwritten code to _protect the shield_ like we've seen the Police use when one of theirs is involved in wrong doing? I hope you don't think I'm trying to be argumentative because I'm not. I just have a lot of respect for builders and if I'm doing something offensive to them unknowingly I'd like to know.


To Dan B who has I think becomes JW's PR Guy.......What GVB said........^^

----------


## John Bertotti

I paid a deposit for an Oldwave. I also then sent money as the build progressed because I trusted Bill and wanted to make sure the money I saved went to the instrument I commissioned and not get spent accidentally on something else during the wait for completion. I don't think it is uncommon for people to do that, I could be wrong. I would strongly advise anyone to keep a paper trail of money spent accidents happen and people make honest mistakes so a paper trail protects you and the builder form any issues. I know I have messed up my accounting before or forgotten to mail a bill and even forgot someone paid me so it is just wise for both parties to play it safe and keep good records.

----------


## Stephen Perry

Looks like someone stepped forward to coordinate getting the mandolins completed, monetary issues possibly resolved, and perhaps get JW set up to better handle things in the future.  From my perspective, that might allow this thread to die away and things to be handled among the parties, rather than on the arena floor.

I trust that's the case.  Private negotiations generally prove more efficient and less straining than public mechanisms.  Public and legal debates seem to take on a life of their own, with often less than ideal results.

Good luck all.

----------


## kirksdad

> I paid a deposit for an Oldwave. I also then sent money as the build progressed because I trusted Bill and wanted to make sure the money I saved went to the instrument I commissioned and not get spent accidentally on something else during the wait for completion. I don't think it is uncommon for people to do that, I could be wrong. I would strongly advise anyone to keep a paper trail of money spent accidents happen and people make honest mistakes so a paper trail protects you and the builder form any issues. I know I have messed up my accounting before or forgotten to mail a bill and even forgot someone paid me so it is just wise for both parties to play it safe and keep good records.


Amen;

This episode has not dissuaded me from a custom build in the very near future.  Its only made me smarter.  The folks who build are special talents, we need to understand the ground rules for which the operate, and as long as those guidelines are fair and in the open, there should never be any fear in working with them.

----------


## Dfyngravity

> I know that Jamie's mandolin are absolutely stunning and from what I have heard are great sounding too. But from what I can tell, he isn't doing anything more special to his mandolins than any other builder out there.


actually, Jamie does LOTS of things other builders don't do. Dan Beimborn would have all the specifics, but let's just say that Jamie is probably the most Loar-obsessed builder alive today... and the final product shows it (unfortunately, I've never had a chance to play one)! if you have never seen images here on the Cafe of Jamie's incredible (if infrequent) work, i highly suggest you go to The Mandolin Archive and check out the photos of his most recent work. the most true-to-Loar f5's i've ever seen.[/QUOTE]



I completely understand that Jamie is building the closest Loar F5 mandolin out there. What I really meant is that he isn't reinventing the wheel here. There are many builders out there making their own bridges, bindings, tailpieces, ect...I know Jamie's goal is to get everything as close to a Loar reconstruction as possible so it's a little different and may take a little more time than your own design. But to me if you are taking orders and charging the amount he is charging than you should have all of your i's dotted and t's crossed so you can deliver in a reasonable amount of time.

I design and build custom landscapes as well as do custom home construction, so whenever I am faced with a project that has things I have not done before I research, research, and make sure I fully understand what it is I am doing before I take any money. I definitely understand that when you are doing custom projects with lots of details that ETAs are not always met, but are still completed within reason. I can tell you, if I tell someone 6 months on a custom house I am going to do everything in my power to hit that mark.

----------


## Mark Walker

I too became somewhat concerned by the _potential_ that the many fine and reputable builders who frequent the Cafe' might be made a bit gunshy by this thread.  I reminded myself that it was initiated based on concerns regarding _one particular_ luthier, and that a number of people have had both good and bad experiences with this person.  

I don't know Dan Beimborn personally, but have interacted with him on the Cafe', via email, and PM's and in my experience know him to be an honest and straight-shooting individual.   I take at full face-value his comments, concerns and opinions regarding JW, as well as his candor and loyalty.   Obviously it would be difficult for any one of us who've had a great working experience with any other human to then find less-than-complimentary comments made about that person - warranted or not.  Regardless, there obviously have been issues with JW by some people, and it's unfortunate for not only those who support him, but those frustrated by him.

We all have differing perceptions about the 'tone' of this thread, but I contend (compared to many) it has maintained its informational integrity and civility.

Regarding my concern about other luthiers being 'scared' off, I suspect if they're on the sidelines watching and keeping quiet, there are observations they're making mental notes on as well.  By and large, I would suggest the _vast_ majority of the fine luthiers who frequent this site will continue to be a pleasure to do business with by repeat and future mandolin family shoppers!  We're a community, and I feel it's our nature to live and learn, and continue to support one another.  (Just look at the knowledge readily shared in the 'Builders' section by virtually every luthier who visits Mandolin Cafe'.)  

Overall, this thread has been indicitive of that, and I commend everyone for maintaining that community integrity.

----------


## foldedpath

> I paid a deposit for an Oldwave. I also then sent money as the build progressed because I trusted Bill and wanted to make sure the money I saved went to the instrument I commissioned and not get spent accidentally on something else during the wait for completion. I don't think it is uncommon for people to do that, I could be wrong.


That's not unusual, I think. My first custom guitar from one luthier was a standard 50%/50% deal. On the second one from the same luthier, we agreed on payment in thirds -- one third initial deposit, one third payable when the build hit the bench, final third when it was ready. That way I wasn't paying such a large chunk of cash to get it started, or to wrap it up. Some luthiers will be flexible like that, others have more formal requirements (especially for orders that come in blind, with no references or prior contact). Whatever you do, just get it in writing and make sure everything in the build is spelled out clearly.




> I too haven't noticed any derogatory comments aimed at luthiers in this thread, but maybe I missed something. One question I have is this - I was under the impression that when you commission a build that you put an agreed upon deposit down and then pay off the balance when your mandolin is done, but several people dealing with Mr. Weins seem to have paid a considerable amount of cash up front, above and beyond a deposit (including Dan B) - is this common practice or something unique to folks waiting on a Weins? I'm not flaming here or being facetious, simply asking a genuine question.


I've had a luthier offer an upgrade in wood, hardware, or pickups during the initial phase of hashing out the price, but I've never had a luthier ask for more money after that initial spec was agreed to, or been asked to accelerate the payment schedule. I've never had a luthier tell me about their financial problems, or personal problems outside the scope of the workshop. Any of that goes way beyond the scope of the business transaction. It would be a major red flag for me. I enjoy friendly communication with people I'm doing business with, but there's a line there that shouldn't be crossed (IMO). Any discussion of money should stick to the terms of the initial agreement by email or other written transaction. 

The only change in financial arrangements should be if the customer asks for an upgrade in specs or hardware somewhere along the way. I've done that too, but not so late in the process that it screws things up.

----------


## danb

> I agree with not painting the builder community with a broad brush here and that they are not on trial or should be. What I don't get is _"Many of the comments made have been deeply offensive to the builder community at large here on the cafe."_
> 
> Could you please provide some examples? I'm not saying I couldn't have missed one or two but many? Or does the the builder community have some unwritten code to _protect the shield_ like we've seen the Police use when one of theirs is involved in wrong doing? I hope you don't think I'm trying to be argumentative because I'm not. I just have a lot of respect for builders and if I'm doing something offensive to them unknowingly I'd like to know.


It's the language style. If I'm a luthier, I'll feel a finger pointed at me if I see a negative quote a bout Jamie followed by "so when dealing with custom builders, one should..." etc. There's a move from the specific to the general. I don't think it's intended, but it's cause to be cautious in what we write based on the enormously varied audience here including the builders with nothing whatsoever to do with the original emotions here in this thread

----------


## peter.coombe

> Regarding my concern about other luthiers being 'scared' off, I suspect if they're on the sidelines watching and keeping quiet,


Yep.  No intention to add anything to this mess, and thanks Dan.

----------


## danb

> I don't know Dan Beimborn personally, but have interacted with him on the Cafe', via email, and PM's and in my experience know him to be an honest and straight-shooting individual.   I take at full face-value his comments, concerns and opinions regarding JW, as well as his candor and loyalty



Thank you Mark. I'm of many minds on this and don't see it in pure black and white in any way and I appreciate your saying that.

Jim- I don't in any way dispute your honesty or intentions.




> To Dan B who has I think becomes JW's PR Guy


No, that's not my intention. I think I can help out and I want to focus that primarily by helping to facilitate more direct communications between the involved parties. This thread has served to bring the issue to light, but I think as others have suggested that the solutions are going to come around more directly between Jamie and his customers. I want to help *in that way*, but I don't want to put a spin on this in any other way.

----------


## J.Albert

Flattpicker wrote:
"miniscule footnote: wait time for a Fleta classical guitar is, and long has been, 20 (twenty) years."

Frankly, that borders on absurdity. I can't think of any other way to express it.

These are mandolins - pieces of wood that you cut, shape, glue together and then put a finish on. Yes, it can take many hours. But it doesn't take THAT long.

Mr. Weins is said to build one mandolin per year. Huh? What the heck is he doing with the rest of his time up there, being an "artist"?

I've seen postings on this board displaying Mr. Wein's finished work, and indeed it looks fabulous. No problems with that.

I think he'd do better to cancel all his orders, refund money as best he can, and just build mandolins, selling them upon completion. If they are that good (and they _do_ look fine - the few that he's actually finished, that is!), someone will want them, and pay well for them.

If it was me, I'd go out and buy an Ellis, Randy Wood, Gilchrist, etc. that was available and already-completed. These guys seem to have no trouble supplying mandolins to the high-end market.

- John

----------


## kirksdad

> Thank you Mark. I'm of many minds on this and don't see it in pure black and white in any way and I appreciate your saying that.
> 
> Jim- I don't in any way dispute your honesty or intentions.
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's not my intention. I think I can help out and I want to focus that primarily by helping to facilitate more direct communications between the involved parties. This thread has served to bring the issue to light, but I think as others have suggested that the solutions are going to come around more directly between Jamie and his customers. I want to help *in that way*, but I don't want to put a spin on this in any other way.


DanB;

Your intentions here are entirely laudable.  Hope this things gets cleared up, hope those with deposits get their mandos, hope Jaime does the right thing.

Oftentimes hope is bad plan.........

----------


## GVD

> It's the language style. If I'm a luthier, I'll feel a finger pointed at me if I see a negative quote a bout Jamie followed by "so when dealing with custom builders, one should..." etc. There's a move from the specific to the general. I don't think it's intended, but it's cause to be cautious in what we write based on the enormously varied audience here including the builders with nothing whatsoever to do with the original emotions here in this thread


Thanks For the response Dan and I agree that we _all_ need to be mindful not to cast aspersions (even if not intentional) on the overwhelming number of fine builders who freely give their time and expertise on this board. 

I've always held them in very high regard and this thread has done nothing to change my opinion on builders in general. I sincerely hope that everyone who reads this thread fully understands that this is about one particular builder named Jamie Wiens and that builder only.

----------


## jim_n_virginia

> To the customers of TAFKAJW: please stop contacting me. I cannot assist.


Scott whether you like it or not you are a leader and thus an authority figure at least in this mandolin community!  :Laughing:

----------


## Phil Goodson

This discussion has focused on rational people's obligations to fulfill promises and communicate appropriately.

I will simply share my experience with similar matters:
In my business we have a large group of professionals whose jobs include getting certain jobs (including paperwork & documentation) finished within a defined time period.
On several occasions these obligations have not been met and the professionals have been obliged to submit themselves for psychologic evaluation and counselling before receiving any more paychecks.
Interestingly, this has resulted in several cases of previously undiagnosed mental illnesses requiring medication or adjustment of medications for previously known illnesses.  Other diagnoses have included use of illicit substances.

I make no suggestions that mental illness or substance abuse is involved in this instance (I have absolutely nothing to support anything like that.), but simply point out that behavior is not _always_ simply a decision of the individual.

----------


## Mteresko

I just wanted to chime in here briefly as an owner of one of JWs mandolins. My mando was anticipated to be a year out and and wound up being close to two years. I found Jamie prickly at times about this issue, but never found him dishonest or anything other than passionate about building the best mandolins he could muster. I am the proud owner of a piece of his work, and it is a beautifully built and utterly musical instrument. 

Mike Teresko

----------


## tin ben dur

I really have no business posting here but as a previous business owner I can say that this is no way to run a business. I am glad to see this out in the open. The is the "Word of mouth" per say in the mandolin community. I currently work with a guy and "Word of mouth" is how we keep busy even during these bad economic times. And the guys that have been having bad business practices are sitting at home on the couch. If you tell people your going to do something then do it. 

We never collect a dime until we have done something or completed the job. The job we are on now will end up costing atleast twice that of a JW mando. 

My 0.02 might not mean anything but I hope people get their money back. I also hope others do not feel like all mandolin builders are like this. Its as simple as doing a search of the builder before you give them a deposit. If and when I get the money I would not feel bad giving certain luthiers a deposit.

----------


## tburcham

Enough!  Whatever purpose his thread may have served has been fulfilled...get it off the board.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

We can all stop talking now because Tim says the conversation is over.

----------


## Bill James

Not meaning to offend but, it's easy to forget that some people have jobs or jobs that don't allow them to access the message board all day or they may even travel and not be able to access it for days at a time. When the discussion is over it will die on it's own or, if the moderators will want it shut it down they will take care of that.

----------


## tburcham

> Not meaning to offend but, it's easy to forget that some people have jobs or jobs that don't allow them to access the message board all day or they may even travel and not be able to access it for days at a time. When the discussion is over it will die on it's own or, if the moderators will want it shut it down they will take care of that.


None taken...

----------


## Bob Borzelleri

This has truly been an interesting and revealing thread.  I don't know when it will die, but when all is said and done, the most notable thing about the thread, for me,  is that very little, if any, of the constructive comments have come from Jamie Weins. 

While I would vigorously applaud an outcome that has people who are out money being made whole and Jamie Weins becoming a person whose business integrity begins to match his obvious skill as a builder of fine mandolins, I have serious doubts that this will come to pass any time soon, if ever.  

Reports of thousands of dollars of deposits being "gone" and using the deposits of some to pay back others, if true, paint a picture of a very deep financial hole and few apparent resources to dig out of.  Perhaps more importantly and even more sadly, my experience working with people in similar situation suggests to me an even deeper, non financial hole that didn't get dug overnight.

Those who have expressed support and a willingness to help JW out of this mess are to be commended for their intentions.   However, in order for that to happen,  JW is going to have to do the lion's share of the heavy lifting and, to this point, I have seen no evidence that leads me to believe that he will take this task to heart.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Just a quick note. This thread was originally locked but Scott made the decision to allow it to continue. I seriously doubt that it will ever "leave the board". It will become part of the vast archive that is the Mandolin Cafe. This is without a doubt the largest searchable repository for mandolin related information on the Internet. This thread will most likely be found in a Google search many years from now.

----------


## Miked

The next time my wife is looking up information on removing tough laundry stains, this is one she will have to filter out. :Wink:

----------


## G. Fisher

> The next time my wife is looking up information on removing tough laundry stains, this is one she will have to filter out.


That just make me laugh out loud.  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

----------


## Randy Smith

> Enough!  Whatever purpose his thread may have served has been fulfilled...get it off the board.


The posting on this thread seems to be slowing down--maybe that's good news for you.  In the meantime, please allow the Cafe to have its say.

----------


## Gary Hedrick

After reading all of these postings, I want to weigh in by saying "Don't flush all the builders down the toilet by lumping them into a bunch" 

I have had good experiences and some that haven't been great but in general luthiers take longer than they think they will. They want to please...they want to be perfect in their art form....they want to get it done as soon as possible yet family, health and material issues always make things stretch out.

The custom builder market isn't like running a capital build project. I think it is fair to have progress payments, ask for schedule updates on a periodic basis but recognize that the market isn't real precise like building a facility and you just need to get use to it or else take your money elsewhere.

Also we could start a thread about the horror stories of customers not sticking with a scope. Changing their minds....not listening to the builder and overall being pains in the rear.

As for Mr Wiens, I've owned one of his mandolins......very nice instument...good sound and it was well built. He is capable of doing a great job. 

As for the rest of the behaviors.....Yuck....

----------


## F5G WIZ

Yes I agree, my custom built mandolin arrived one month to the day earlier than the builder told me it would.  Love it and no problems!

----------


## Jill McAuley

> After reading all of these postings, I want to weigh in by saying "Don't flush all the builders down the toilet by lumping them into a bunch"


Point me to the posts where folks are "lumping builders into a bunch" and flushing them down the toilet? I've read this lengthy thread in it's entirety and I haven't seen anything like that at all. There is HUGE respect here for all of the amazing luthiers out there and I'm sure there will continue to be.

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## deepmountain

> Jim- I don't in any way dispute your honesty or intentions.
> 
> No, that's not my intention. I think I can help out and I want to focus that primarily by helping to facilitate more direct communications between the involved parties. This thread has served to bring the issue to light, but I think as others have suggested that the solutions are going to come around more directly between Jamie and his customers. I want to help *in that way*, but I don't want to put a spin on this in any other way.


Thanks Dan. I appreciate you saying that and your willingness to facilitate communications with JW. I hope you will keep us posted here on the Cafe as to the success, or lack thereof, of your efforts and what is happening, particularly if Jamie is willing to "come to the table" and if he is also willing to acknowledge responsibility.

Jim

----------


## David Rambo

Thanks, Scott, from me also for letting this thread continue.  For me it has been a real eye opener.  It has made me appreciate all of the people on this forum even more than before.  I think that the restraint people have shown is way higher than mine would have been under the same circumstances.  I, when reading the posts, never felt any fears about other luthiers and their business practices.  I thought that the ones who did respond gave me even more confidence in placing orders with them.   I was once told that if you put 25 ministers in one room, at least 2 will be crooked.  If the ratio is that high for pastors, then it probably is higher for the general public.  Occasionally, perhaps, one might be part of the mandolin community.  In spite of what has been posted, I still have nothing but trust and respect for the people who make and sell things in our community.

----------


## delsbrother

> Also we could start a thread about the horror stories of customers not sticking with a scope. Changing their minds....not listening to the builder and overall being pains in the rear.


We've had plenty of those threads too.

The lesson I've gleaned through all of this is when there's mutual trust AND respect between parties, there's success. IOW, common sense.

----------


## Steve Sorensen

I went back to the Weins site.  He finished #22 in 2006 and #26 around Halloween of 2009.  

I guess a mandolin/year would make sense if you were working full time at another job . . . but that goes beyond the agony and the ecstasy for an "artistic" builder with just the one job.  He's got to be grinding through a whole forest of spruce and maple before getting a keeper.

At that pace, taking any "reservation fee" seems like a Ponzi scheme.

Wow.

----------


## JeffD

> At that pace, taking any "reservation fee" seems like a Ponzi scheme.



No, that would be slow, meticulous, excessive perhaps. A ponzi scheme implies a deliberate, unethical and illegal plan to separate someone from his money, a.k.a theft, and while all I know is what I have read here, I don't see anything to justify this implication.

----------


## Steve-o

> At that pace, taking any "reservation fee" seems like a Ponzi scheme.


Or maybe a Wienzi scheme... (sorry, couldn't resist)

----------


## Gary Hedrick

"We've had plenty of those threads too.

The lesson I've gleaned through all of this is when there's mutual trust AND respect between parties, there's success. IOW, common sense. "



Spot on......

----------


## John Hill

> At that pace, taking any "reservation fee" seems like a Ponzi scheme.


Judging by his attitude maybe Mr. Wiens could be guilty of having read "The Fountainhead" one too many times perhaps...but to suggest ponzi is a touch reckless.

----------


## Links

Well  -  already alluded to in other posts, but at some point Mr. Wiens has to say  -  "maybe it's me".  Until that admission is made, and I don't think it has been yet, there will be no progress.  He is not obligated to say it to us, but he must say it to himself  -  and then his action will reflect it!

----------


## Greg Allen

Thank You Scott for the forum. I am hoping that the lack of further posts by Mr Wiens is a sign that he is putting all his time and effort into bringing his current open projects to fruition.

----------


## pjlama

Well I've been reading for what feels like forever but couldn't get to the last two pages as my eyes feel like they're about to bleed. Anyway, I'm really glad this thread has been left to run it's course for two reasons; 1. to warn consumers of an unethical builder and 2. for some frank, honest discussion. If you just come aboard every mandolin is wonderful and every builder is great. I think many on this board hold back because the community is so small and the forum is tightly moderated. The mandolin world isn't all butterflies and rainbows kids. There's bad instruments, bad builders, lots of sugar coating and way too much enabling and some serious gouging afoot. Whatever you think about TAFKAJW this thread is really letting people show their feelings and seems like a good cleansing.

ps, WOO HOO! this post is my 1000th! Only took three years, hopefully I made at least one positive contribution if not I'm sorry for wasting your time.

PPS a custom build takes as long as it takes but a very large deposit and abusive responses to progress inquiries are not acceptable.

----------


## frankenstein

PJ. I couldn't agree more..

----------


## Chuck Naill

> Well I've been reading for what feels like forever but couldn't get to the last two pages as my eyes feel like they're about to bleed. Anyway, I'm really glad this thread has been left to run it's course for two reasons; 1. to warn consumers of an unethical builder and 2. for some frank, honest discussion. If you just come aboard every mandolin is wonderful and every builder is great. I think many on this board hold back because the community is so small and the forum is tightly moderated. The mandolin world isn't all butterflies and rainbows kids. There's bad instruments, bad builders, lots of sugar coating and way too much enabling and some serious gouging afoot. Whatever you think about TAFKAJW this thread is really letting people show their feelings and seems like a good cleansing.
> 
> ps, WOO HOO! this post is my 1000th! Only took three years, hopefully I made at least one positive contribution if not I'm sorry for wasting your time.
> 
> PPS a custom build takes as long as it takes but a very large deposit and abusive responses to progress inquiries are not acceptable.



Just my opinion, but the best post I have read. Well put. Congrats on 1000 posts, I guess. 

I wonder if the past 15-20 years of baby boomer high dollar custom and vintage instrument acquisition has not produced a climate that resulted in this type of meltdown? I mean, what is the sanity of a $250,000 vintage or $30K custom? I know, it's an investment.  :Disbelief:

----------


## Scotti Adams

Wow..take a couple days away from here and one misses alot. Obviously theres alot more of this #### out there that Scott mentioned. One thing for sure..if it was happening or had happened to me I dont think I could be tight lipped about it being worried about retribution...if anything..the opposite should prevail.

----------


## oldwave maker

I hope the power of this website faciitates a satisfactory resolution for all concerned parties. After nearly 20 years of building, averaging 2 8-stringers a month, I can't imagine spending a year on one, I'd have it so screwed up by then, even the termites would be complaining to the bartender!
nice avatar, PJ!
bill
old wave manalins:
'when "good enough" costs more than a mexican liver transplant and takes longer than WWII'

----------


## hank

"when "good enough" costs more than a mexican liver transplant and takes longer than WWII."    :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

----------


## pjlama

> I hope the power of this website faciitates a satisfactory resolution for all concerned parties. After nearly 20 years of building, averaging 2 8-stringers a month, I can't imagine spending a year on one, I'd have it so screwed up by then, even the termites would be complaining to the bartender!
> nice avatar, PJ!
> bill
> old wave manalins:
> 
> Yeah my avatar is was built by the funniest luthier I know, it's also a pretty good instrument 
> 
> 'when "good enough" costs more than a mexican liver transplant and takes longer than WWII'


 :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

----------


## Brown

I've hesitated to post in this thread because I don't have a dog in the fight. However, I have to say that I empathize with Mr. Wiens, as I also have a lot of trouble finishing projects. At times I have found specific suggestions very helpful. While I don't have any thoughts on dealing with the current problems, a different business model could prevent any of this from happening again, and might allow him to make far more money. First, a few observations.

1. JW is, by all accounts, a very talented luthier.

2. Demand for his mandolins far outstrips supply.

3. Demand would probably be even higher if potential buyers weren't worried about the hassles detailed in this thread.

4. JW's output would probably improve if he didn't have to deal with disgruntled customers.

5. A business manager is probably not financially realistic.

To me, all this suggests that JW (and perhaps other high-demand luthiers) should consider auctioning off their creations as they are completed. 

Here are the advantages I see

1. Auctioning would allow him to work on whichever project is most appealing at any given time. 

2. There would be no need to deal with customers instead of working on instruments.

3. An auction would allow the builder to get the market value when the instrument is completed, rather than being stuck with a lower quoted price on an old wait-list.

The only downside might be a lack of capital for purchasing supplies. However, there are any number of ways to deal with this that do not run the risk of angering customers and creating terrible word of mouth. That's my two cents. Hopefully he and his customers can resolve the situation so he get back to making great instruments.

----------


## Philippe Bony

> ...Here are the advantages I see
> 1. Auctioning would allow him to work on whichever project is most appealing at any given time. 
> 2. There would be no need to deal with customers instead of working on instruments.
> 3. An auction would allow the builder to get the market value when the instrument is completed, rather than being stuck with a lower quoted price on an old wait-list.
> The only downside might be a lack of capital for purchasing supplies. However, there are any number of ways to deal with this that do not run the risk of angering customers and creating terrible word of mouth. That's my two cents. Hopefully he and his customers can resolve the situation so he get back to making great instruments.


Well, another "downside" (for me) : I'll never get a left-handed mandolin...
 :Wink:

----------


## Lefty Luthier

> Well, another "downside" (for me) : I'll never get a left-handed mandolin...


Contact me at workyla@gvtc.com, I have a lefty nearly ready for finish.

----------


## Scotti Adams

Lets put it to rest. Im sure all parties involved would agree. I for one hope JW gets his business practices together. Ive never played one of his mandos but they sure look sexy.

' Nuff said...again.

----------


## G. Fisher

I don't see this thread going away until people hear that the mandolins have been delivered or money returned. I know I'm curious to see how it all plays out.

----------


## Scotti Adams

Greg..I concur...but..its time for it to rest at this time. Im sure as things progress we will hear more..either good or bad and it will be up to those to make the decision to air the laundry.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

We all have the choice to read or not read a message thread. If anyone is tired of reading this then simply skip it, otherwise anyone is free to post a message.

----------


## Scotti Adams

Mike..my thoughts exactly.

----------


## Randy Smith

> We all have the choice to read or not read a message thread. If anyone is tired of reading this then simply skip it, otherwise anyone is free to post a message.


Mike, thank you much.

----------


## pjlama

> I've hesitated to post in this thread because I don't have a dog in the fight. However, I have to say that I empathize with Mr. Wiens, as I also have a lot of trouble finishing projects. At times I have found specific suggestions very helpful. While I don't have any thoughts on dealing with the current problems, a different business model could prevent any of this from happening again, and might allow him to make far more money. First, a few observations.
> 
> 1. JW is, by all accounts, a very talented luthier.
> 
> 2. Demand for his mandolins far outstrips supply.
> 
> 3. Demand would probably be even higher if potential buyers weren't worried about the hassles detailed in this thread.
> 
> 4. JW's output would probably improve if he didn't have to deal with disgruntled customers.
> ...


Not to be pessimistic or argumentative but I seriously doubt most builders could get what they charge on ebay or an similar online auction situation with a brand new instrument. A few would but most would not. Auctions are very illuminating, the true market value of things are best seen in an auction.

 I have no issuse with how long it takes TAFKAJW to create his art but I do have issue with his being abusive to his customers and charging them hefty deposits for cashflow. This is a dangerous path. What happens when enough people decide they don't want to do business because of the hassle and the cash flow dries up and he can't afford to build mandolins for people whose deposit money was spent to finish the guy who was ten spots before yours? 

"4. JW's output would probably improve if he didn't have to deal with disgruntled customers."

Seriously? I cannot even begin with this one. No matter how good you are you must take care of your customers.

----------


## Stephen Perry

Re auctions:  Need not be on eBay.  Can just put an instrument on one's website with price of X.  After a month drop to X-$500.  Month later, X-$1000.  That's a reverse (true dutch) auction.  Someone will jump eventually.  


Cashflow:  Charging deposits for cash flow looks to be a dangerous move.  Deposits to weed out the non-serious and buy materials, yes.  Where an instrument is mostly a copy of something, why have deposits?  Have a list.  When one is done, contact the first person.  If that one doesn't want it, then the second person.  

"What happens when enough people decide they don't want to do business because of the hassle and the cash flow dries up and he can't afford to build mandolins for people whose deposit money was spent to finish the guy who was ten spots before yours? "

I think we're seeing what happens.  Someone producing (for example) 5 per year accepts total payment for 10 and has those 10 at 50% done.  There's a 2 year backlog of work that needs to be done with no additional income.  I don't see makers who can take a 2 year pause from getting money while they do work.  

I would anticipate a drop in new orders, possibly to zero.  Negotiation.  If no change in attitude or productivity results, someone is likely to be a hardnose and push through one formal path or another.

----------


## Mark Richardson

I can't believe I've read this whole thing!  I need an Alka Seltzer.

What a nightmare for all parties concerned.  I had a custom mando build by Bobby Wintringham of San Juan Mandolins a few years ago.  It was one of the most fun and exciting things I have ever done.  Guess I was just lucky.

----------


## jim simpson

Mark,
I suspect your positive experience was more common than not. I would hope the bad experiences are limited to a few. It's a small community, doing good customer service benefits everyone.

----------


## Chuck Naill

> Cashflow:  Charging deposits for cash flow looks to be a dangerous move.  Deposits to weed out the non-serious and buy materials, yes.  Where an instrument is mostly a copy of something, why have deposits?  Have a list.  When one is done, contact the first person.  If that one doesn't want it, then the second person.


Tonewood for top, back, and neck less than $100. Tuners, hardware, and materials, less than $500. A $1500 deposit and asking for more, priceless. :Disbelief:  :Disbelief:

----------


## Stephen Perry

Exactly.  I can see some overhead costs possibly being lumped into a deposit, although it's not something I would hope to justify.  

Taking years to do an instrument when that's all one does seems a bit difficult to justify, too.  At $10K mandolins, one would anticipate a shop with CNC equipment to do the roughout work, excellent tools to do the rest, and a clear, strong work ethic.  I'm suspecting that's not what we're seeing here.  

On the other hand, it's not too hard for a life to get out of control.  Helping hands that should be welcome are sometimes shunned.  Difficult to get someone out of control back on track.  Sometimes the hard knock approach tightens things up.

----------


## foldedpath

> Tonewood for top, back, and neck less than $100. Tuners, hardware, and materials, less than $500. A $1500 deposit and asking for more, priceless.


Well, large deposits do have an advantage for some buyers, let's not forget that. It allows one to buy a high-end instrument on a "layaway plan," instead of having to come up with a big chunk of money all at once. I think many of us wouldn't be owning some of these instruments at all, if not for the ability to pay over time. 

That's one reason I don't like the auction idea. It tilts things towards the more wealthy buyer, possibly even more towards collectors and speculators instead of working musicians. It also removes any guarantee that you can actually own an instrument by X luthier, unless you're willing to pay literally any price for it. 

Maybe auctions are the way to go, for luthiers who aren't good with cash flow or can't communicate well with their customers, but I think it would only work for those who are so well-established that the name alone on the headstock is a selling point, and not the working relationship. 

I can't speak for all buyers of luthier-made instruments, but many of us are looking for that relationship during the process; the fun of commissioning a personalized instrument, and not just a commodity object. Being able to stretch out the payments over time is just a side benefit, but it is a benefit (for some of us, anyway).

----------


## JimRichter

> I can't believe I've read this whole thing!  I need an Alka Seltzer.
> 
> What a nightmare for all parties concerned.  I had a custom mando build by Bobby Wintringham of San Juan Mandolins a few years ago.  It was one of the most fun and exciting things I have ever done.  Guess I was just lucky.


Not lucky, Mark.  It went the way most should go.

----------


## Perry

Doesn't the way Steve Gilchrist handle his orders make a lot of sense? Unless I am wrong he announces "x" amount of instruments will be available on approximately "X" date. He minimizes if not altogether eliminates customization. He then has an outside agent deal with the money end of things so he can concentrate on building some instruments. I'm quite sure that he is capable of keeping track of customer deposits and timelines himself but chooses not to. Of course he has to keep up his end of the bargain and do some work.

This whole I'm an artist and not a business man is a bunch of _________. 

That said I can see where some folks who order instruments can become like stalkers inquiring about how _their_ instrument is progressing and when will it be done.

----------


## danb

> Tonewood for top, back, and neck less than $100. Tuners, hardware, and materials, less than $500.


Actually I'd say you are being a bit optimistic on the wood prices.. especially if you are talking about particularly dense grain counts on the tops,  and single-piece backs with lots of curl. The tuners (Waverlies) alone are $500. Add silver plated James or other high-end tailpiece, replica Loar pickguard, Loar replica bridge, engraved silver truss rod covers, inlay cut to a custom pattern- you are near $1500 on parts before we even add in the Calton or Pegasus case at $5-700.

Another consideration is quality control of materials, if you get some wood that doesn't quite respond the way you want after carving it, that's a loss too- unless you're going to sacrifice quality. Sometimes a small mistake will also render a great piece of wood unusable. Then there are finish ingredients with organic components and fairly tight use-by dates, it gets pretty expensive up front to produce these.

I'm sure that wasn't the point you were making in your post though Chuck, but sometimes it can be quite an eye-opener to see all these things enumerated!

----------


## Scotti Adams

Okay..Im going to ask the obvious..at the risk of getting banned here. Dan..why did you get your mando before the others that were ahead of you? I get the whole Loar thing..the passion..etc. But fact of the matter still remains people were ahead of you. For whatever reason you got yours first...hence..the reason for alot of pissed off people.

----------


## Links

"4. JW's output would probably improve if he didn't have to deal with disgruntled customers."

That's funny!  How about  -  He wouldn't have to deal with disgruntled customers if his output improved?

Scotti  -  I don't think it is Dan's fault that he got his before other customers  -  the blame should be on JW.  I assume that he did not know where others orders stood at the time he got his and would have not condoned a leap to the front.  I cannot put words in his mouth, but I would guess that he was embarrassed to find out!

As an architect, I always am paid in phases -  20% of total fee for preliminary designs  -  50% of total fee for completion of detail plans and specifications  -  and 30% of total fee for completion of the construction observation (broken down into phases of construction completion).  First, I never want to be paid before I complete a phase of work, as it really removes some of the incentive to complete the phase  -  shouldn't, but it does.  Second, it allows the owner input during the process and keeps them up to date regarding their project's design.  It also allows them to spread out their costs.

There is no reason a luthier could not work in the same manner, particularly if the customer wanted to reduce the large amount of money at the end of the project.  How about 5% retainer to get on the list  -   10% when construction is about to start for the pruchase of materials   -  50% when the instrument is in the white  -   and the remainder upon completion and delivery of the instrument.  There is no reason that this would not work.  For builders who charge considerably less, the first couple of phases may be a little higher to cover costs.

None of this is hard to figure out  -  someone (in this case JW) just has to want to do it  -  and there within lies the problem!

----------


## AlanN

Sounds reasonable.

JM did:

33.3% at beginning
33.3% in middle
33.3% at end.

Worked for him and worked for me.

----------


## Will Kimble

Dan has it right on cost of materials, it is more $$$ and more complicated than Chuck has suggested...  

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

----------


## Scotti Adams

Not laying the blame entirely on Dan at all in this whole mess....but Im sure hes aware how things fell. Im sure there was talk of JW's back log..waiting list etc. I dont believe Dan didnt know his mando came in way before others and way before JW's anticipated build time. Did he ever ask himself why? Theres something screwy going on. Might have something to do with Dans status here on the board..dunno. Given the facts its obvious Dans mando was given priority status. Once again..hence..thats why there is alot of pissed off folks.

At the bottom of this mess your gonna find 2 people with a passion for Loars and the ability to build "The Second Coming" ..and to hell with other peoples money..other peoples places in line etc.

I'd be the first to admit I would welcome "The Second Coming" but not at other folks expense..and thats exactly what happened here.

----------


## Keith Erickson

> Not laying the blame entirely on Dan at all in this whole mess....but Im sure hes aware how things fell. Im sure there was talk of JW's back log..waiting list etc. I dont believe Dan didnt know his mando came in way before others and way before JW's anticipated build time. Did he ever ask himself why? Theres something screwy going on. Might have something to do with Dans status here on the board..dunno. Given the facts its obvious Dans mando was given priority status. Once again..hence..thats why there is alot of pissed off folks.
> 
> At the bottom of this mess your gonna find 2 people with a passion for Loars and the ability to build "The Second Coming" ..and to hell with other peoples money..other peoples places in line etc.
> 
> I'd be the first to admit I would welcome "The Second Coming" but not at other folks expense..and thats exactly what happened here.


Scotti, 

Would you do us a huge favor and share with us your experience when you asked Jamie Wiens to build your mandolin?  

 :Whistling:

----------


## Scotti Adams

Thats not gonna happen. What? wait ten years...

----------


## Scotti Adams

PS

I was done with this thread a few days ago..BUT....It just irritates me to no end that this kind of #### goes on. Here on the Cafe we are a family...we strive to be the watchdog for wrong doing..but when one of "ours" is caught with his pants down I have to say something.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

This thread isn't about Dan. It's about JW and it's not cool to make implications regarding someone's integrity without knowing all the facts.

----------


## Jim Nollman

This is great. For lack of a better word, let's call it networking  It is what the internet does better than anything else. In this case, witness an open-ended and civil discussion of 20 or 30 people all of whom have a real stake in both the problem and its solution. Glad to see the Cafe using its unique position to help sort this out.

----------


## Kirk Albrecht

The issue us not really whether it's OK or not to charge a deposit fee.  As Dan has realistically laid out, up front costs for materials alone will run upwards of $1,500 at least.  It's OK to charge a deposit fee - I did that for a custom guitar build back in 1997, and it worked just fine for us both (btw - he is a Canadian luthier, and I live in the US)

What I think is the issue is that any deposit fee be applied to THAT instrument, not someone else's in the queue, or to pay your mortgage, or anything else. It is the honest and ethical handling of funds paid that is the heart of that issue in this thread, not if a deposit is ethical in itself.

Unless Dan tells us categorically that he knew or didn't know he was being moved ahead of people in JW's build list, we should not criticize him.  We jsut don't know, and speculation and assumption are two fast ways to bigs mistakes in understanding. "he who restrains his lips is wise"  :Grin: 

Further, contrary to some opinions here, I think most customers have a positive experience with custom builds, because there is a clear understanding of how that should work, and in many cases, a good, clear contract signed by both parties.  What is clear is that THIS custom build - and a few others by JW - were not a positive experience for anyone.

----------


## Scotti Adams

Chris..I dont blame Dan..entirely. Given the 12 pages of talk here its obvious theres more to the story. Let me ask you...if you contacted a high end builder to build you a mando and all the details were discussed and the wait time was..say..3 years..and the facts were laid out here on the Cafe to read that XBuyer placed an order considerably after you and he got his mando BEFORE you wouldnt you question yourself why?..If not the builder(Artist). If it takes so long to make "The Second Coming" then why arent the others done first? Seems to me the SC should still be on the bench.

----------


## Keith Erickson

> PS
> 
> I was done with this thread a few days ago..BUT....It just irritates me to no end that this kind of #### goes on. Here on the Cafe we are a family...we strive to be the watchdog for wrong doing..but when one of "ours" is caught with his pants down I have to say something.


...and what irritates many of us is when a _private_ busines transaction is called out in public and a demand is made of that person to explain themselves. 

To be honest with you, it's completely none of our business!!!!!       :Mad:

----------


## Scotti Adams

> ...and what irritates many of us is when a _private_ busines transaction is called out in public and a demand is made of that person to explain themselves. 
> 
> To be honest with you, it's completely none of our business!!!!!


As Cher would say "Cant Turn Back Time"

----------


## catmandu2

If you are doing business with a businessman, there are usually mutual expectations.

If you're doing business with an _artist_ who professes to not be a _businessman_, I guess you get what you get.

IMO, to engage in a business transaction with someone who claims to not be a businessman...even though he is engaged in the _business_ of selling mandolins...is risky business.

----------


## Tom C

Personally I would not question why somebody got theirs ahead of me. There can be many reasons.
1) Builder doing a friend a favor and maybe making a batch of 5 instead of 4. Not pushing other 
   dates back too much.
2) Maybe builder need cash to fullfill many orders and he had somebody willing to pay up front.

I would just care about when I would get mine. but again 3 years overdue and no idea what is happening would irk me. I hope things work out.

----------


## danb

> Okay..Im going to ask the obvious..at the risk of getting banned here. Dan..why did you get your mando before the others that were ahead of you? I get the whole Loar thing..the passion..etc. But fact of the matter still remains people were ahead of you. For whatever reason you got yours first...hence..the reason for a lot of pissed off people.


Scotti: It wasn't something I demanded or insisted upon if that's where you're heading. I suppose that's probably the answer to the question you're asking? At the time it was all going on, I had only peripheral awareness of "the rest of the list". I found out more later on of course. I don't know of too many builders that are 100% strict on "first in, first out" either, for that matter, but obviously this particular build has been pretty exhaustively documented, to put it mildly.

Anyway- Mine was getting built while I was doing research to assist, most of which hit the board here and ended up in the mandolin archive. It's all still there really.. a lot of the crazy picture taking and Loar hysteria we built up to going over details was related to the Jamie build process. Jamie's side of the operation was obviously more hands-on: actually building the stuff and figuring out how to do it. My F5 ended up being basically prototype 2 of the Loar style ones. It was going on while he had the window to compare with the original. You'll notice (if you put on your nerd goggles) that the ones that come after mine take things further too.. changes to inlay, finish refinements, and all sorts of other small details.

On just the peghead overlay/inlay, for example.. we hunted down a couple different '22-'24 instruments.. I photographed the truss rod pocket on those, and we chatted back and forth with Charlie regarding how they were made back in the day. The original is pearwood with a holly substrate and done as marquetry instead of inlay. We even got involved with a couple ebay auctions for some old unused overlays that popped up not yet cut, etc. We talked to folks behind-the-scenes about molds/templates/tooling too. Each of these things was "tried out", if you see where I'm heading here.

I don't think he was planning from the get-go to make this his "normal model" F5, but it did create all kinds of responses from folks- that kind of thing isn't always easy to re-kindle if you put it off. I think the experiment was pretty successful and became "the standard model Wiens" after 22 & 23 were done.

----------


## Scotti Adams

Your exactly right Tom. There was a huge favor given here. Bottom line. Period.

----------


## danb

> ...and what irritates many of us is when a _private_ busines transaction is called out in public and a demand is made of that person to explain themselves.


You'll notice that there are very few people in this thread with an actual stake in things still posting. I am doing so because I believe the facts are not being represented entirely fairly, and emotion has been trumping the facts.

----------


## Scotti Adams

Dan..I appreciate your response..but it still didnt explain why you got yours so much ahead of the others. I guess thats something JW has to explain. If I was in line for an oil change and the pretty girl behind me got hers first..by the same mechanic I'd question that as well.

----------


## 250sc

Keith Erickson wrote "...and what irritates many of us is when a private busines transaction is called out in public and a demand is made of that person to explain themselves. 

To be honest with you, it's completely none of our business!!!!! "

I don't buy the "its none of your business" argument. In a case like this where things have been going further and further out of control I feel it is important to bring possibly unethical business issues to light so the general public can be forwarned and the the party performing those business transactions can feel the preasure of public scrutiny.

----------


## danb

> Dan..I appreciate your response..but it still didnt explain why you got yours so much ahead of the others. I guess thats something JW has to explain. If I was in line for an oil change and the pretty girl behind me got hers first..by the same mechanic I'd question that as well.


I'm sure he doesn't think I'm pretty

----------


## Scotti Adams

> You'll notice that there are very few people in this thread with an actual stake in things still posting. I am doing so because I believe the facts are not being represented entirely fairly, and emotion has been trumping the facts.


Facts?? What are the facts? No alot of us dont have "a stake" in this but it still effects us all.

----------


## Scotti Adams

> I'm sure he doesn't think I'm pretty


Im sure after all of this Im not pretty as well.

----------


## Chuck Naill

> Actually I'd say you are being a bit optimistic on the wood prices.. especially if you are talking about particularly dense grain counts on the tops,  and single-piece backs with lots of curl. The tuners (Waverlies) alone are $500. Add silver plated James or other high-end tailpiece, replica Loar pickguard, Loar replica bridge, engraved silver truss rod covers, inlay cut to a custom pattern- you are near $1500 on parts before we even add in the Calton or Pegasus case at $5-700.
> 
> Another consideration is quality control of materials, if you get some wood that doesn't quite respond the way you want after carving it, that's a loss too- unless you're going to sacrifice quality. Sometimes a small mistake will also render a great piece of wood unusable. Then there are finish ingredients with organic components and fairly tight use-by dates, it gets pretty expensive up front to produce these.
> 
> I'm sure that wasn't the point you were making in your post though Chuck, but sometimes it can be quite an eye-opener to see all these things enumerated!


I am basing the prices on what red spruce ( straight and 15-30+ grains per inch) $50-100 and maple $50-100 go for in my area from those that cut the trees. The hardware prices were averages for Grovers, Gotoh, and Schaller @ $150.  I did include $150 for the James tailpiece. This brings us on the high end of $500. I may be off a bit, but a long way from $1500. 

Cases are a side issue for me because those can be sourced later after the build. 

Some builders are using Carpathian spruce which I am told is a bargain. Last year I priced a mandolin set online for $7 a top.

----------


## Cornelius Morris

I have spoken with both Jamie and Dan, and the circumstances are a lot more complicated than some people here have assumed.  

It makes sense to me that when Jamie did his whole makeover, around #22, he applied the many (VERY many) changes of his design and procedures to Dan's mandolin.  They were talking and writing back and forth, in scores of messages.  I'm personally glad that he did this with Dan and Dan's instrument, even if it pushed me back a little bit.  Dan's own obsessive work with Jamie made sure that my instrument will be a far better one than it would have been.  I have no doubt about this, and I know that some other Wiens customers agree.  

While I understand the objection to someone signing up later but getting a finished instrument sooner, in this instance there was more involved than line-jumping.

----------


## Brown

> Not to be pessimistic or argumentative but I seriously doubt most builders could get what they charge on ebay or an similar online auction situation with a brand new instrument. A few would but most would not. Auctions are very illuminating, the true market value of things are best seen in an auction.


I didn't say it would work for most builders; obviously this would only work for a builder who is very in demand. As I said, "JW (and perhaps other high-demand luthiers) should consider auctioning off their creations as they are completed." 



> I have no issuse with how long it takes TAFKAJW to create his art but I do have issue with his being abusive to his customers and charging them hefty deposits for cashflow. This is a dangerous path. What happens when enough people decide they don't want to do business because of the hassle and the cash flow dries up and he can't afford to build mandolins for people whose deposit money was spent to finish the guy who was ten spots before yours?


Exactly. Which is why I suggested a business model that would not involve taking any deposits. If you get rid of the deposits, none of the other problems matter (at least from a client's perspective). 




> "4. JW's output would probably improve if he didn't have to deal with disgruntled customers."
> 
> Seriously? I cannot even begin with this one. No matter how good you are you must take care of your customers.


I thought you didn't mean to be "argumentative and pessimistic"?  :Wink:  

I stand by my statement that his "output would probably improve if he didn't have to deal with disgruntled customers." Dealing with angry customers is a time-consuming and unpleasant task, and time spent dealing with customers cannot be spent building mandolins.

I never suggested that he not "take care of [his] customers."  I'm suggesting that a different business model could reduce or eliminate the number of unhappy customers, which would let him to focus on building.

----------


## danb

> I am basing the prices on what red spruce ( straight and 15-30+ grains per inch) $50-100 and maple $50-100 go for in my area from those that cut the trees. The hardware prices were averages for Grovers, Gotoh, and Schaller @ $150.  I did include $150 for the James tailpiece. This brings us on the high end of $500. I may be off a bit, but a long way from $1500. 
> 
> Cases are a side issue for me because those can be sourced later after the build. 
> 
> Some builders are using Carpathian spruce which I am told is a bargain. Last year I priced a mandolin set online for $7 a top.


Sure, that makes sense. I understand that you are saying you can make an F5 with less expensive parts than Jamie typically uses. In that case I'd also figure the deposit would be lower

He's still using over $1k of parts even without the case just using your list above. Part of it is because he's paying the high end prices on the wood and using waverlies, james tailpieces, loar replica pickguards etc.

----------


## danb

> Facts?? What are the facts? No alot of us dont have "a stake" in this but it still effects us all.


As well as the financial "stake" the actual customers have here, my "stake" in this is also measured in my own time. Take a look at those "Loar picture of the day" threads, and count my posts there.. count the pictures I personally took and posted in public either on the board or on the archive.. and also consider just how much time I put in updating that same site. At the festivals I went to in this time period, my goal was documenting Loars! I skipped quite a few bands I wanted to hear so I could get some good pictures.

For the mandolin archive- conservatively I'd say I spend 10 minutes a record  if a dealer mails me images and a description. If it's one of my own it's more like 2 hours per record when you add it all up. Taking pictures isn't something I'm naturally good at, I have to really muddle through to get decent ones that are worth posting or keeping.

Would you believe most of my shots are about 20-30 mins each before they get posted? Multiply that by 2-3 dozen loars, and all the other details we looked at.. you can see I'm not just talking about speculating on a message board, there was a lot of time contributed.

----------


## Scotti Adams

$500 for Waverly's...maybe $50 for a CA bridge...$150 in a James Tp..thats $700...how much does a repro pick guard run? $175. Im sure JW doesnt pay top dollar for his parts and hardware.

----------


## Scotti Adams

> As well as the financial "stake" the actual customers have here, my "stake" in this is also measured in my own time. Take a look at those "Loar picture of the day" threads, and count my posts there.. count the pictures I personally took and posted in public either on the board or on the archive.. and also consider just how much time I put in updating that same site. At the festivals I went to in this time period, my goal was documenting Loars! I skipped quite a few bands I wanted to hear so I could get some good pictures.
> 
> For the mandolin archive- conservatively I'd say I spend 10 minutes a record  if a dealer mails me images and a description. If it's one of my own it's more like 2 hours per record when you add it all up. Taking pictures isn't something I'm naturally good at, I have to really muddle through to get decent ones that are worth posting or keeping.
> 
> Would you believe most of my shots are about 20-30 mins each before they get posted? Multiply that by 2-3 dozen loars, and all the other details we looked at.. you can see I'm not just talking about speculating on a message board, there was a lot of time contributed.


Dan..your work here is well documented and appreciated by all. The facts I refer to is how you got special treatment. Not blaming you at all....but you had to have some inclination that you did.

----------


## danb

> $500 for Waverly's...maybe $50 for a CA bridge...$150 in a James Tp..thats $700...how much does a repro pick guard run? $175. Im sure JW doesnt pay top dollar for his parts and hardware.


don't forget to add the wood. You can safely assume it hits at least the higher numbers from Chuck's estimate of $100 per top & $100 per back

----------


## danb

> Dan..your work here is well documented and appreciated by all. The facts I refer to is how you got special treatment. Not blaming you at all....but you had to have some inclination that you did.


Scotti, you're just trolling at this point.. I have nothing more to add

----------


## Scott Tichenor

Enough.

----------


## Scotti Adams

_<trolling. comment removed by site owner>_

----------


## Scott Tichenor

Scotti, you and Dan can PM this one from now on if you wish.

----------


## Scotti Adams

_<removed by site owner for trolling. further instance will be cause for your permanent dismissal from this forum's membership.>_

----------


## piiman

Scott, For all you do, Kudos to you  :Smile:

----------


## deepmountain

> You'll notice that there are very few people in this thread with an actual stake in things still posting. I am doing so because I believe the facts are not being represented entirely fairly, and emotion has been trumping the facts.


If we could just bring back a bit of civility and return to the “facts”. I repeat, and not to add fuel to the fire, but to remind everyone of why this thread came into being in the first place: Jamie Wiens business practices and disrespectful treatment of his clients— to make others aware and to beware of unscrupulous practices by builders. Regardless of the many remedies, suggestions, changes to his business plan, what could be or should be, and what steps might be taken to alleviate the problems—as for all of these that have been posted, they are all well and good, and may provide some insights and learning for us all, but it’s up to JW to take heed and there’s been no indication that he’s hearing any of it.

As one of Jamie’s former clients I’ve pretty much said all I can say…anything else would be redundant at this point. If you missed my posts and want to read my story you can find them (#46 and #214). 

As for this latest flare up re: Dan’s build—if you read the documentation I provided on the link I included earlier in this thread, (#214) you will find that I never begrudged Dan his Wiens, although it was upsetting to learn he’d been bumped to the head of the line, which I only became aware of when Dan shared receipt of his mando on the Café. I was well aware of when he’d ordered it, as he also shared that info online.

Perhaps if Jamie had let me (I don’t know about the others on his list) know he was building Dan’s mando first, as well as the reasons, i.e., had he included me in the process, it might not have been so disconcerting to find I’d been jumped over. I didn’t realize the extent to which Dan had been involved in the design refinements. Had I known, I think I actually would have been enthusiastic about his contributions and obviously more understanding about why he got his ahead of the rest. 

Even so, I was aware that Jamie was "retooling" and that would add some time to the wait, but regardless of any design changes, I still can’t see any justification for it adding 3 years to the original delivery date, making it nearly 5 years—and was still waiting. I would have never ordered from him had I known that upfront.

What I most strongly objected to was that I became the recipient of belligerent responses for politely requesting 6 months after the delivery date a progress report, having received very little communication about the build, and a new "estimate" of when I might receive my instrument...and then again at over 2 years beyond the orig. due date, and once again when a newly agreed to delivery date was missed by almost a year. At that time I was informed that “it was like pouring water on my head” for asking about an instrument that he “wasn’t even thinking about yet.” This is going on 5 years after placing the order and he’s not even THINKING about my mandolin?? At this point I asked Jamie if he would give me an honest appraisal of when he could deliver the mandolin and he said “I’m not gonna do that.” That’s when I became a "PIA" and the object of other insults for asking outright the taboo question of “when?” and becoming I guess what one poster  referred to as a "disgruntled customer". 

Going into the 5th year of a “20-month original delivery date”, $5000 dollars in the hole, and no end in sight, was when I pulled the plug...and again it wasn't just because of the long wait. It had become an extremely unpleasant experience and no matter how great the mandolin I would have received would have been, I no longer wanted to play an instrument with such negative associations, and even more importantly, I no longer wanted to support a builder who had behaved so poorly. 

Also, one further important point here is that mandocowboy, who started this thread, was asked by JW if he wanted my slot.  Mandocowboy agreed to pay an additional $5000 to take over my slot and to provide the funds for my refund—and that mandolin has still not been produced. I would still be waiting—now for 6 years.

The point here is if JW honored his agreements and communicated in a respectful way he would not have disgruntled customers and this thread wouldn’t exist. 

That's the crux of it and I apologize for being redundant after all.

Until JW can see and own his part in all of this and make the appropriate changes, I don't see any remedying of the situation. He appears to be resistant to working with people to solve these problems, doesn’t consider anyone’s needs but his own and blames others for his own shortcomings. 

Jamie suggested to mandocowboy, the OP of this topic, that he consult a psychiatrist for his "obsession". JW might be well served by following his own advice...and I say this only with the kindest of intentions and concern as there may be deeper issues operating here than just poor business practices given his behavior. (IMHO)

I think that now I have said, AGAIN, all that I can. 

Except: LIVE AND LEARN….

Scott I'd like to thank you for the website and all it offers to the mandolin community, your time and effort, and for being willing to let this topic go forward. I appreciate also your help and understanding when I first contacted you about all this. I've been mostly a "lurker" here not having very good computer skills or much patience with the technology...I'm old school; but I start out my morning everday with my coffee and the cafe and have enjoyed it very much.  

Peace and good wishes to all.

Jim

----------


## jim_n_virginia

It wasn't Dan's fault for getting bumped up it was the Luthiers. Like someone else waiting on the list if they were to be bumped up would say "Oh no I'm not next take care of the other guys first!"  I don't think so.  :Grin: 

Anyways I hope everyone involved either gets their mandolin or their money.

This thread has LONG way to go to catch up with the Blue Chip thread!  :Grin:

----------


## Glassweb

[QUOTE - Dan B]

"I don't know of too many builders that are 100% strict on "first in, first out" either..."

Truer words were never spoken... thanks for pointing that out Dan. Sometimes that's just the way it goes... builder's whim as it were ...

----------


## Randy Smith

[QUOTE=deepmountain;760491]If we could just bring back a bit of civility and return to the facts. I repeat, and not to add fuel to the fire, but to remind everyone of why this thread came into being in the first place: Jamie Wiens business practices and disrespectful treatment of his clients to make others aware and to beware of unscrupulous practices by builders. . . ;but its up to JW to take heed and theres been no indication that hes hearing any of it.

As one of Jamies former clients Ive pretty much said all I can sayanything else would be redundant at this point. If you missed my posts and want to read my story you can find them (#46 and #214). 

. . .The point here is if JW honored his agreements and communicated in a respectful way he would not have disgruntled customers and this thread wouldnt exist. 

That's the crux of it and I apologize for being redundant after all.



    Given this thread is long--and that's just fine--your restatement of what happened is a needed review of this matter, so please don't apologize for being redundant.  Thanks for taking the time to  write such a thoughtful and polite message.

----------


## barry k

If it is indeed " builders whim"  why have a wait list in the first place? dont understand that logic. That would be just as helter skelter as what was originally discussed here. Adds to confuse an already muddled process.   .02
 :Confused:

----------


## Glassweb

[QUOTE Barry K] If it is indeed " builders whim" why have a wait list in the first place?

hell, don't ask me! i'm just saying, from personal experience, that this sort of thing goes on all the time. not blaming or tryin' to explain... just the facts man!

----------


## Scott Tichenor

I'd like to go on the record to say it's simply not fair to paint the entire building industry as going about on a whim trading build spots based on whatever suits their needs or that _most builders do it_.  This is straying from the real issue and is a disservice to the community. I'd really like it to stop here and now.

This is not a discussion about the mandolin building industry. This is about one individual's failed business practices.

Stick to the message.

----------


## Glassweb

Sorry Scott! At this point I think I'll just sign off from this thread... apologies to any and all builders I may have offended... you know I admire you all _greatly_.

----------


## foldedpath

> [QUOTE - Dan B]
> 
> "I don't know of too many builders that are 100% strict on "first in, first out" either..."
> 
> Truer words were never spoken... thanks for pointing that out Dan. Sometimes that's just the way it goes... builder's whim as it were ...


If I knew _in advance_ that a luthier had that policy, I would never do business with them. That's not a fair policy when someone's holding your money.

----------


## mandolirius

> If I knew _in advance_ that a luthier had that policy, I would never do business with them. That's not a fair policy when someone's holding your money.


It could be fair, considering some customers want enough time to save the money they need to pay for the completed instruments and may not want the builder to put them at the top of the list. If I ordered a ten thousand dollar mando, I'd need two to three years to pay for it, so I would have no problem seeing the cash-in-hand customers get their instruments first. My take is that there is no one "policy" that fits in each and every case.

It's also not meant to be a thread about builders, as Scott has said, just this one particular individual.

----------


## mculliton123

A little off topic but I'm fairly new here but gotta ask, Has this thread set a record? 12 days, 333 posts and over 28,400 views? It's like "The Kramer" offensive, yet I can't look away. :Coffee: 
Michael

----------


## fishdawg40

> Perhaps if Jamie had let me (I dont know about the others on his list) know he was building Dans mando first, as well as the reasons, i.e., had he included me in the process, it might not have been so disconcerting to find Id been jumped over. I didnt realize the extent to which Dan had been involved in the design refinements. Had I known, I think I actually would have been enthusiastic about his contributions and obviously more understanding about why he got his ahead of the rest.


Interesting that this bit of information comes out when JW is in front of the firing squad.  Wouldn't it make sense to communicate this to your customers and tell them they are going to be getting a better mandolin for it?  Or did I miss something?

----------


## GVD

> A little off topic but I'm fairly new here but gotta ask, Has this thread set a record? 12 days, 333 posts and over 28,400 views? It's like "The Kramer" offensive, yet I can't look away.
> Michael


Not even close.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78

----------


## Bob Borzelleri

> Not even close.
> 
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80
> 
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78


Well, it looks like the only thing that beats out poor business practices is mando vanity. :Grin:

----------


## mculliton123

> Not even close.
> 
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80
> 
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78


GVD, both of those thread counts accumulated over a 7 year period but in the first *12 days* both of them were  under 100 posts.  My point was the RATE of the postings. 
thread # 78 took 3 months to reach 333 posts, thread # 80 almost 1 year. Even Woman w/ Mandolins took 12 weeks to hit the 333 mark. Just a measure of the passion raised by this topic.
 :Coffee: 
Michael

----------


## drewgrass

sorry i have not read all 15 pages. and if this has been said already sorry again. but here is how this will play out. the guy is not taking orders anymore. he will either build whats on his list and then build them with out taking orders  and then sell to the first buyer. or he will go out of business. and in five years everyone on this site will be raving about his mandolins and dropping $20k to get one because they are rare. and we will all hail him as a eccentric genius. there is no such thing as bad publicity. just sit back and watch

----------


## Elliot Luber

There absolutely is such a thing as bad publicity. Businesses are valued based on our reputation with customers and our credibility with regulators etc. In fact, the best measure a public company's image is its stock price.

----------


## Chuck Naill

> . and in five years everyone on this site will be raving about his mandolins and dropping $20k to get one because they are rare.


Nobody with $20K for a mandolin will be alive in five years. The boom might be over.  :Wink:

----------


## Stephen Perry

Seems this has moved off topic.  

While I probably won't get an answer:  Has anyone moved formally to settle their differences with JW?  I pointed out earlier the mechanisms available including the consumer protection authorities.  Has anyone actually gone to visit JW, talk things over, see what can be done?  

Those are both quite credible and effective paths forward, often followed in consumer issues involving substantial purchases.  I'd be curious about the results or efforts.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Keep in mind that the majority of those affected have not and probably will not post anything here. I'm sure that most of them still entertain the thought of getting a mandolin and all of them fear losing the deposits they already have in place. It's easy for us to sit on the outside and just say that they should pursue legal action. I'm sure that thought occurred to them as well. That doesn't mean anyone will do that in the near future. Right now they will probably hold off and see if mandolins suddenly start flying out of JW's shop.

----------


## drewgrass

> There absolutely is such a thing as bad publicity. Businesses are valued based on our reputation with customers and our credibility with regulators etc. In fact, the best measure a public company's image is its stock price.


i was half joking. what im saying is supply and demand if he goes out of business or stops taking orders. and people are talking about him then people will want them. people always want what they cant have. this has been going on since that whole eve and the apple thing, no matter what you say. this is not the stock market. its why derrignton signed gibsons will be worth more.than the master models made after because there are not that many. it's called mas. in the end i was joking sorry

----------


## Elliot Luber

Yes, this is about one individual of considerable talent producing extraordinary works for clients who are very anxious to receive them -- and not companies cranking out widgets. But money is changing hands and clients express dissatisfaction. That is not good for anyone's reputation.

----------


## Mark Seale

> If I knew _in advance_ that a luthier had that policy, I would never do business with them. That's not a fair policy when someone's holding your money.


Some luthiers are still working on lists where they took deposits with a hold price of an amount significantly less than what the instruments are trading for on the open market.  While they continue to toil building instruments at a price sometimes 50% less than what the open market will bear, they don't see a dime of that (usually.)  I don't begrudge a maker for doing a special order or 2 at the market price in order to supplement their income.  That being said, work on the list would necessarily need to continue.  If, for no other reason, the builder can finish it and start a new list at a new price point.

----------


## foldedpath

> Some luthiers are still working on lists where they took deposits with a hold price of an amount significantly less than what the instruments are trading for on the open market.  While they continue to toil building instruments at a price sometimes 50% less than what the open market will bear, they don't see a dime of that (usually.)  I don't begrudge a maker for doing a special order or 2 at the market price in order to supplement their income.


What I'm talking about is essentially breach of contract. An agreement can be altered if both parties agree to it, but there should never be a change in the terms of the agreement made unilaterally, by one party.

If I'm told that I'm 3rd in line for an instrument and it should take X amount of time (and I'll automatically bump that up to allow for "luthier time"), I don't want to hear that a friend of the luthier got in line ahead of me, or that he's decided he needs some quick cash with some spec instruments sold at auction or a dealer, both of which would push back my delivery date. That's simply not what we agreed to, when the instrument was commissioned. 

Now, if the luthier contacted me and said they were working on a new design that might result in a better mandolin, but it would mean another year waiting time, and would that be okay? That's a different story. I might go for it, but I would still want the _option_ of staying in the same build queue and getting the standard model at the agreed-on time (more or less), because that's what we agreed to. Nobody in a business deal gets to make unilateral changes to benefit themselves at the expense of their customers, without consequences to their reputation.

Case in point: When I bought my special-order Breedlove/Zenkl mandola, I was told it would take about 3 months. It ended up going closer to a year, which was okay by me because I was expecting it (and I was told through the dealer that Kim was building it himself, which was neat). After close to a year went by, I was told the instrument was almost ready and it was going through the final finishing process. 

The next thing I heard about it, was seeing a photo of the mandola here at the Cafe', where they were showing it at the NAMM show. I was a bit miffed at that, because they didn't ask if it was okay to display the instrument and pass it around at a dealer show. I honestly expected they would just ship it directly to me after it was finished. If they had asked me, I probably would have said okay, fine... I can wait a couple of weeks, just make sure it doesn't get dinged up. But _they didn't ask_. A little communication would have gone a long way. I still enjoy playing my mandola, and overall I rate it as one of the positive buying expereinces (I mentioned it in the other thread), but that little road bump didn't have to happen.

----------


## Chuck Naill

> Case in point: When I bought my special-order Breedlove/Zenkl mandola, I was told it would take about 3 months. It ended up going closer to a year, which was okay by me because I was expecting it (and I was told through the dealer that Kim was building it himself, which was neat). After close to a year went by, I was told the instrument was almost ready and it was going through the final finishing process. 
> 
> The next thing I heard about it, was seeing a photo of the mandola here at the Cafe', where they were showing it at the NAMM show. I was a bit miffed at that, because they didn't ask if it was okay to display the instrument and pass it around at a dealer show. I honestly expected they would just ship it directly to me after it was finished. If they had asked me, I probably would have said okay, fine... I can wait a couple of weeks, just make sure it doesn't get dinged up. But _they didn't ask_. A little communication would have gone a long way. I still enjoy playing my mandola, and overall I rate it as one of the positive buying expereinces (I mentioned it in the other thread), but that little road bump didn't have to happen.


Out of curiosity, had you paid for this instrument in part or in whole when it was displayed?

----------


## GVD

> GVD, both of those thread counts accumulated over a 7 year period but in the first *12 days* both of them were  under 100 posts.  My point was the RATE of the postings. 
> thread # 78 took 3 months to reach 333 posts, thread # 80 almost 1 year. Even Woman w/ Mandolins took 12 weeks to hit the 333 mark. Just a measure of the passion raised by this topic.
> 
> Michael


Well like you said you said you're new here and this might seem like some kind of big deal to you. I've been around this joint since the current version started and a couple of versions before it. I think there have been lot's of other threads that generated a lot more posts a lot quicker than this one. This thread really doesn't have a direct effect on that many people so I find it hard to believe that it even comes close to approaching the RATE of posts that some threads in the past have. I don't have the time to look up any specific ones but if you're interrested I'm sure you can look them up yourself.

----------


## foldedpath

> Out of curiosity, had you paid for this instrument in part or in whole when it was displayed?


Full payment up front, at the time I placed the order. 

Breedlove doesn't sell direct to customers, even on special orders. You have to go through a dealer, and dealers generally want full payment for special orders like this, because they might get stuck with something unusual they can't sell otherwise.

----------


## mculliton123

> Well like you said you said you're new here and this might seem like some kind of big deal to you. I've been around this joint since the current version started and a couple of versions before it. I think there have been lot's of other threads that generated a lot more posts a lot quicker than this one. This thread really doesn't have a direct effect on that many people so I find it hard to believe that it even comes close to approaching the RATE of posts that some threads in the past have. I don't have the time to look up any specific ones but if you're interrested I'm sure you can look them up yourself.


You're absolutly right, I am new and just a casual spectator and this thread has nothing to do with me.  Only been playing a mandolin for 2 months and enjoy reading the posts. I realize that I am in the VAST majority of folks that, as Scott says, "Lance Armstrong could beat on a 40 pound Huffy". What IS a mandolin? just a hollow wooden box with some wires stretched across it. (some very BEAUTIFUL wooden boxes) but for most of us the ROI decreases exponentialy as the price increases and we will never be commissioning custom instruments.  But to the elite of the community I reallize that you can see, feel, and most importantly HEAR the difference in a high end Mandolin and it's a shame when your confidence is broken.  
 :Coffee: 
Michael

----------


## Jill McAuley

Michael,
I think once you've spent more time here you'll see that it's not just the "elite" of the community who commission instruments - far from it. Folks can commission instruments from very affordable builders such as Howard Morris, all the way up to the likes of Dudenbostel, Monteleone, et al. And in between there is a huge spectrum of great builders doing great work. And I don't think someone has to be "elite", whatever that means or implies, to be able to see/hear/feel the difference in a beautiful instrument - as an 11 yr. old beginner guitar player I was quite able to tell the difference between a Hondo Les Paul and a Gibson Les Paul. On this message board we regularly have beginners rubbing elbows with builders rubbing elbows with experienced but non pro players rubbing elbows with semi-pro and professional players. That's what makes it such a great place. Our common denominator is that we all love mandolins and that's as valid if you're playing a Kentucky KM160  or dare I say it, a Weins. 

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## mculliton123

Jill,
   by 'elite' i did not mean to sound eliteist, this is by far the most democratic site i have ever visited, and i have personally been helped with my newbie questions by those with infinitely more experience.  by elite i simply meant those who can play it well, whether pro or amature, and know how to get the most out of an instrument. There is another thread here where someone joked about having a $20,000 mandolin and was living in a pick-up truck. lol
I realize that even if i could afford a Ferrari that i would never be able to drive it in the way it was meant to be driven,, same goes for the Mandolin. Yes, i am moving up to a new Eastman from the pawn-shop bowl-back i got only 2 months ago but, personally, i am aware that i probably won't achieve the level of expertise that would justify a custom instrument. even at a lower price point i would only be 'in the way' of someone who truely wanted,needed a better mandolin. does that make sense?
BTW, wife and i spent our 20th anniversary in Galway, went to the Oyster Festival and more than a few Guinness  :Smile: , the rest is a blur 'till we got to Kilarney.
Slante'
Michae'

----------


## JeffD

> but for most of us the ROI decreases exponentialy as the price increases and we will never be commissioning custom instruments.



Never say never. That said, ROI is only relevant if you plan on selling your instrument down the line. I have absolutely no intention of ever selling any of my instruments, ever, either to acquire a new one or to take some profit. What the instrument is "worth", or can be resold for, now or in the future is of no interest to me. If times get bad for me and I need to sell of course I will, but I wouldn't buy a mandolin on the bases of what it will net me in an emergency.

If something I own became insanely valuable for some reason, of course that would be different, but an insanely valuable investment bought for a reasonable amount is a pipe dream not to be planned for or expected.

I have my own slowly building 'new instrument' account, funded after all other priorities are taken care of. Whenever I get a MAS attack I quench it by shoving some money into that account. Right now I am having a fiddle made, so the mandolins have to wait. But I have my eye on more than a couple of makers.

----------


## mculliton123

Jeff,
By ROI i wasn't refering to a financial return but return of Entertainment $$. If I could actually afford a $4k mandolin I probably couldn't make it sound any better than a well made $2k model. So I would buy the $2k one and spend the other 2k to take my wife on a cruise for our 35th anniversary.   I'm with you about holding on to an instrument, thru ups and downs i have never remotely considered selling my 1972 D-28 bought new just a few months after my daughter was born. Both turn 38 this year and i love them both (but in different ways) I was just being realistic given my age, current playing abilities, and the probability of future improvment, it would be selfish of *ME* to get into the higher end stuff. Like you said, if all the other needs are taken care of and you have the cash, Go for it!!
Michael

----------


## Mike Scott

Wow!  I can't believe I read the whole or at least most of this thread.  I must say I am amazed.  Being an pretty new mando player and a sucky one at that I have yet to entertain ever ordering a mandolin to be built for me.  That being said it is amazing what poor communications get you.  I did buy a mandolin (already completed) from Barry K. almost two years ago and had no problems at all- kudos to Barry and Sabine for that.  Good luck to all who have mandolins on order from any luthier.  I sincerely hope you all get what you ordered in a timely manner.

----------


## Jill McAuley

Mike, you're so right re: just what a pickle poor communications can land you in. When I was at university a few years ago I had to take a communication skills class as part of my degree course. It was such an eye opening and interesting class - really illuminated to me just how vital good communication skills are, no matter what walk of life you're in - and good communication skills can be learned, even by folks who've previously practiced poor ones!

In my workplace this week we had a situation that really deteriorated and it was all down to a combo of lack of communication and poor communications skills on the parts of the parties involved. It got dealt with, but it was also an eye opener for the two departments involved in the conflict that they needed to set things up so that they could proactively deal with things and prevent problems from arising in the future, rather than being in the position of letting something spiral out of control and then all you can do is react to it. It's easier to prevent fires than put them out as they say. If your business model is creating stress for you and your clients then you go back to the drawing board and figure out a new one, something Mr. Weins will hopefully do sooner rather than later.

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## Stephen Perry

There are communication problems that are unintentional.  Then there are communication problems that are intentional - non-communication and "go away" communication.  The stories above suggest the latter.

----------


## Jill McAuley

I'm not suggesting that the luthier in question is unaware of what he's doing, I'm saying that irregardless of intent, and irregardless of how bad things have gotten, he can still change how he conducts his business if he chooses to, which of course would require him to recognize that there's a problem in the first place. It goes without saying that if he doesn't perceive a problem, and thinks it's just fine to respond rudely to client inquiries, then he's not going to change how he deals with folks.

There's a thread going on right now over at thesession.org involving a fella who made a comment about a band and the band themselves responding in a really confrontational, aggro, petulant and at times threatening manner. Whatever, right? It's just another online war of words, but as one person astutely posted, now anytime someone does a google search on that band, the thread from thesession will come up and it paints them in a pretty crummy and thuggish light. And it's fairly obvious that their aggressive response is intended, not simply misinterpreted or misunderstood. Another person posting suggested that they get themselves a good PR person to take care of all their future communications, since they were such loose cannons themselves. As it is, loads of folks responded that they would now not be inclined to either go see this band live or purchase one of their CD's because of how arrogant and insulting they came across as. Maybe the penny will drop for this young band and they'll change or maybe they just don't give a toss.

Maybe the penny will drop and JW will change, or maybe he just doesn't give a toss. Only time will tell.

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## Zigeuner

> Jeff,
> By ROI i wasn't refering to a financial return but return of Entertainment $$. If I could actually afford a $4k mandolin I probably couldn't make it sound any better than a well made $2k model. So I would buy the $2k one and spend the other 2k to take my wife on a cruise for our 35th anniversary.   I'm with you about holding on to an instrument, thru ups and downs i have never remotely considered selling my 1972 D-28 bought new just a few months after my daughter was born. Both turn 38 this year and i love them both (but in different ways) I was just being realistic given my age, current playing abilities, and the probability of future improvment, it would be selfish of *ME* to get into the higher end stuff. Like you said, if all the other needs are taken care of and you have the cash, Go for it!!
> Michael


I'm only lurking here and I don't have a dog in this fight. That said, it's nice to hear from someone else who doesn't sell their musical instruments. Without listing my instruments individually, except to say they include mandolins, guitars and one banjo, like you, I would never consider selling any one of them. 

Each one represents a period in my life that contains memories, some good, some bad. Several of them came from my family. I hae several Martin guitars bought in the 1960's. My dear Mother bought two Martins, a 12 stirng and a mandolin. Gosh, I sure couldn't sell those. 

So hang on to that D-28. They're not getting mine, either. LOL. 

Oh, to bring this back to the thread....I just couldn't wait five years for a custom instrument. I'd probably forget that I ordered it after that period of time. 

'Nuff said.  :Smile:

----------


## mculliton123

So hang on to that D-28. They're not getting mine, either. LOL. 

Oh, to bring this back to the thread....I just couldn't wait five years for a custom instrument. I'd probably forget that I ordered it after that period of time. 

'Nuff said.  :Smile: [/QUOTE]

I can't remember where i left my car keys!!!!

----------


## RSomers

Since when is buying mandolins different than any other money transaction?
You make an agreement, pay a deposit, and pray for somewhere close to the time of completion. Why give the builder more money, once failed, until you receive and are satisfied with the end result? Is there some kind of idolization goin on here? How many years of waiting?! 5,000.00?!
I don't care about reputation of quality if delivery is in question? What good is nothing! I want my mando and I paid for it, shuck the "artist" BS. If you want to dance you gotta pay the musicians both ways.
However, even the latest posting of clarification from this guy is way out of line!! Its not the  "Mandolin Life of a luthier"...its a business, take care of your customer! Give them what you promise...or, simply say I don't promise anything and let someone just give you money...not mine, that is for sure.

----------


## Bob Borzelleri

> What I'm talking about is essentially breach of contract. An agreement can be altered if both parties agree to it, but there should never be a change in the terms of the agreement made unilaterally, by one party.
> 
> If I'm told that I'm 3rd in line for an instrument and it should take X amount of time (and I'll automatically bump that up to allow for "luthier time"), I don't want to hear that a friend of the luthier got in line ahead of me, or that he's decided he needs some quick cash with some spec instruments sold at auction or a dealer, both of which would push back my delivery date. That's simply not what we agreed to, when the instrument was commissioned. 
> 
> Now, if the luthier contacted me and said they were working on a new design that might result in a better mandolin, but it would mean another year waiting time, and would that be okay? That's a different story. I might go for it, but I would still want the _option_ of staying in the same build queue and getting the standard model at the agreed-on time (more or less), because that's what we agreed to. Nobody in a business deal gets to make unilateral changes to benefit themselves at the expense of their customers, without consequences to their reputation.
> 
> Case in point: When I bought my special-order Breedlove/Zenkl mandola, I was told it would take about 3 months. It ended up going closer to a year, which was okay by me because I was expecting it (and I was told through the dealer that Kim was building it himself, which was neat). After close to a year went by, I was told the instrument was almost ready and it was going through the final finishing process. 
> 
> The next thing I heard about it, was seeing a photo of the mandola here at the Cafe', where they were showing it at the NAMM show. I was a bit miffed at that, because they didn't ask if it was okay to display the instrument and pass it around at a dealer show. I honestly expected they would just ship it directly to me after it was finished. If they had asked me, I probably would have said okay, fine... I can wait a couple of weeks, just make sure it doesn't get dinged up. But _they didn't ask_. A little communication would have gone a long way. I still enjoy playing my mandola, and overall I rate it as one of the positive buying expereinces (I mentioned it in the other thread), but that little road bump didn't have to happen.


This instance doesn't rise to the level of irresponsibility as the behaviors that are at issue in this thread.  That said, had I paid for the construction of a new instrument only to find out that delivery was being delayed simply because the builder wanted to show if off at a trade show, I would be screaming bloody murder.

Clearly, asking the purchaser to display the instrument with assurances that it wouldn't be handled by any ham fisted yokel who wandered by the booth and getting such permission is another story. But, where a purchaser has paid up front, the instrument is not the builder's to do anything else with other than deliver it when completed.  

I'm sure that some people who believe builders are artists who can do no wrong will disagree, but they are wrong. :Popcorn:

----------


## jim_n_virginia

> i am aware that i probably won't achieve the level of expertise that would justify a custom instrument. even at a lower price point i would only be 'in the way' of someone who truely wanted,needed a better mandolin. does that make sense?


Someone I know who has forgotten more about mandolins than I ever will told me once that your musical ability will will only rise to the level your instrument will let you.

I have found over the years this to be largely true. 

Also there are PLENTY of mandolins to go around for everyone!  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## yankees1

> Someone I know who has forgotten more about mandolins than I ever will told me once that your musical ability will will only rise to the level your instrument will let you.
> 
> I have found over the years this to be largely true. 
> 
> Also there are PLENTY of mandolins to go around for everyone!


There is the "law of diminishing returns" which could apply!

----------


## Ryk Loske

In this case ... wouldn't that be:  "The Law of Diminished Digits"?

That's my problem .......

We return now to the topic at hand ~~~~~

Ryk

----------


## mculliton123

Yeah, diminshed digits, I think i'll use that!! I really have to agree with Jim in VA about limits set by the instrument, my ability with guitar jumped suddenly when i got my D-28 in 1972. But, today, @ age 62, arthitis increasing, eyesight and hearing decreasing, I am resigned to my fate.  I have an Eastman 905 on order and @ ~ $1.5K seems somewhere between 
el-cheapo and Yikes!! room enough to grow, but a realistic ceiling. :Coffee: 
Now if I hit the Lotto????
Michael

----------


## ...and Master of None

Wow, lot's of passion in this one.

I'm new to mandolin but I have had experiences, good and bad, ordering other custom instruments.  In one case I owned several of a particular maker's Native American flutes that I had purchased from him through eBay auctions.  I commissioned a flute from him, paid up front, and soon discovered that *some* people just can't be trusted once they have money in hand.  That should be a reflection on them, not on other builders.  In the end I got satisfaction but only after many, many months (on an item that was supposed to take six weeks) and threatening to go public with the entire story. 

As a complete newcomer to the mandolin I wouldn't presume to post in this thread except that no one seems to have pointed out something that seems very obvious to me.  After reading every post in this thread I've noticed one thing that would put me off purchasing a Weins mandolin if it was hanging in my local store ready to carry out the door.  From various posts I gather that he has produced something like a total of 24 or 26 instruments - *and the tops on two of them collapsed within a year or two*.  I'm sorry, but I don't care how beautiful something is, or how close a copy it is of some holy grail, or how gloriously it plays; a *failure rate approaching ten percent* is totally unacceptable for reasonably priced production instruments, let alone for an expensive, handcrafted, custom instrument!

Maybe that's the difference between a builder who thinks he's an artist, and one who realizes he's an artisan...  :Smile: 

Just my $.02,
John

----------


## Links

Quote........"From various posts I gather that he has produced something like a total of 24 or 26 instruments - and the tops on two of them collapsed within a year or two. I'm sorry, but I don't care how beautiful something is, or how close a copy it is of some holy grail, or how gloriously it plays; a failure rate approaching ten percent is totally unacceptable for reasonably priced production instruments, let alone for an expensive, handcrafted, custom instrument!

Maybe that's the difference between a builder who thinks he's an artist, and one who realizes he's an artisan... "

Yeah  -   and it only took him two years to get one of them repaired!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## Bob Stolkin

This is a truly fascinating, and painful thread.  Scott is dead on that this is really more about the builder's incredibly insensitive responses toward his customer, than the cash flow and money issues.  It's a tough way to make a living, and it doesn't take much for these folks to get behind the eightball in terms of cash and scheduling.  Other builders, I'm certain, have gotten into awkward positions, and the good and honorable ones have worked respectfully with their customers to rectify the situations.  

Everything I've read about this situation suggests the opposite, including the response here from the builder.  He may make a fine mando, but there are many others that do the same, and it's disrespectful to those that do it in an upstanding manner to even suggest some defense or rationalization for this guy's practices.  

My heart goes out to the poor guys that have been preyed upon here, both those on record, and the ones whose stories we haven't even heard.  Perhaps there are a few that would still want to commission these instruments based on some sort of morbid intrigue.  But these kinds of dealings are damaging not only to the victims, but everyone else involved in this trade.  For me, it's simple.  If the builder figures it out and commits himself to reforming his business practices (and his way of thinking), he might, just might, over much time, reestablish himself as someone worth hiring.  Otherwise, whatever kind of artiste he fancies himself to be, he is NOT entitled to play fast and loose with people's hard earned money, or their trust.

----------


## kirksdad

My heart also goes out to those, who have deposits and are awaiting their finished mandolins from Jaime.  I sure hope we receive some updates on the progress of this situation, there is always time to do the right thing.

----------


## Patrick Hull

I agree with the post that says, more or less, why is buying a mandolin different than any other commercial transasction?"  It seems clear to me that honesty, integrity and responsibility are values that apply to all of our relationships in life and apply whether you're buying a mandolin or an apple.  If you're goiing to take someone's money and give them something in return, you do it on the schedule you said you would or you offer them their money back.  You keep your word.  You provide a good product or service for an agreed upon price.  These values don't get "trumped" by whether or not you are an artist or a novice unskilled laborer.  These things define the kind of worker you are, and ultimately the kind of person you are.

----------


## papa willie

Right On, Patrick.

----------


## luckylarue

Two quotes come to mind after reading through this saga - "Don't believe the hype" and "Let the buyer beware."  Imo, Mr. Wiens has all but ruined his reputation with his shady business practices and customer relations.  There are far too many excellent luthiers/businessmen/women out there to deal with than to risk hard earned $$ with the likes of Mr. Wiens.  Don't mean to be harsh, but this is a public forum.  If Mr. Wiens doesn't change the way he does business & dealings w/ his customers, he will have wasted a great talent.

----------


## allenhopkins

Kinda hoping this thread gets shut down, since it looks like it'll never die.  I think everything that could or should be said has been said at least a half-dozen times.  It's starting to feel like a public flogging.  Undoubtedly the luthier is reaping the result of financial irresponsibility and Neanderthal customer relations skills.  Short of tar-and-feathering, there's not much else that the Cafe community can do.  Sad to see real talent (and "artistry," whatever that is) diminished by inability to do business, but in our society, doing business is how you get your "art" to support you.

And now I've done just what I complained about**: repeated myself and forty-'leven other posters.  Fifteen pages is long enough.  The only benefit attached to further churning, is to provide an object lesson to anyone else who builds mandolins, or wants to.  Look what happens when you don't meet your deadlines, and compensate for it by belittling your customers!  Not a pretty picture -- and now I'm outta here, late for the door, whatever...

----------


## thistle3585

> This instance doesn't rise to the level of irresponsibility as the behaviors that are at issue in this thread.  That said, had I paid for the construction of a new instrument only to find out that delivery was being delayed simply because the builder wanted to show if off at a trade show, I would be screaming bloody murder.
> 
> Clearly, asking the purchaser to display the instrument with assurances that it wouldn't be handled by any ham fisted yokel who wandered by the booth and getting such permission is another story. But, where a purchaser has paid up front, the instrument is not the builder's to do anything else with other than deliver it when completed.


Wow, although I wouldn't take a customers instrument to a tradeshow such as NAMM without asking first, I have routinely taken new instruments to jams and festivals prior to shipping them.  I've never had a "display" model, so I use my most recent builds to promote my instruments. I think I took 2 or 3 to the Midwest Mandolin festival last year.  I have a friend that has probably played every instrument I've built.  I rarely get to see the new owner play it, so its a treat to see someone really go to town on it and appreciate it in person.  Two years ago I went to a mandolin tasting where builders showed up with a number of their current instruments, and since all those builders have lists, I have to believe that those instruments were being shipped off to their new owners soon after the gathering.

That aside, I sympathize with those that have problems with Jamie and can appreciate those that are on his list not wanting to make waves.  I've played a Weins, beside a lot of past and present boutique builders, and it was an exceptional instrument.  If I had the money, I'd be willing to put up with his business practices for a couple years if I was confident I'd receive an instrument.  I think building on spec is his best avenue.  It may make sense for him to find a dealer/rep to help him manage the business end.

----------


## Link

> It's done _all the time_ in the violin world....
> 
> _"Take that bow home and play it awhile"_ (referring to a $3K bow)...
> 
> _"Well, you really need to play it in context, so take it and try it out"_ (referring to a $2.5 million Strad)....)
> 
> That's just the way things were, and _are_, done...


That really is how it's done in the classical string instrument world (I just can't call it the violin world...).

Last year, when I was looking for a new viola, I went to one shop that is a couple of blocks from my teacher. So I go in and try out a few, and I narrow it down to two or three. I then cart those two or three--total value something like $25,000 or more-- across several blocks in the middle of the city to my teacher to get his opinion. I then take them back, as they weren't what I was looking for.

It's just how we do it.

----------


## Flattpicker

When I was looking for a violin or viola they asked for my credit card before I got to take anything home. 

I had no problem with that.  I brought back the instrument, and nothing was charged to my card.

----------


## Link

Hmm. It probably depends on who you go to and how expensive the instruments are. The luthier I ended up buying from (not his instrument, he was just selling it) didn't really seem overly concerned about things like the exact date when I would give it back... he was very laid-back about it.

----------


## Stephen Perry

It's quite funny.  I never have trouble with the expensive things, but I really can't let people take the less expensive stuff home any more.  They don't come back.  In my world, walking off with a $1000 fiddle would be wrong.  Eventually it gets settled, but it shouldn't take a certified demand letter from a law office to do it.

----------


## Chuck Naill

Given the number of customers who have made large deposits and never gotten their mandolin, it would be useful to have a type of consumer report somewhere on builders to keep this from happening again.

----------


## mandolirius

> Given the number of customers who have made large deposits and never gotten their mandolin, it would be useful to have a type of consumer report somewhere on builders to keep this from happening again.


I think it's not necessary, as I don't think it's that big a problem. This particular builder seems quite out of step with the norm. Most people who commision custom instruments seem to have successful and happy transactions. There are a number of builders who frequent this forum and they are generally lauded for their business practices. 

Scott has implored Cafe members to stay on point here and not turn this into a thread about the builder community at large. That's not really fair. It's about one individual whose actions seem to be far outside the norm, which is why these complaints have come to light. It's not a problem that seems indemic among the builder community, which is why I think the suggestion is inappropriate.

I'm starting to agree with Allen Hopkins in thinking this thread has served a useful purpose and it now open to being subverted if left to run on and on. I applaud Scott for re-opening it and I'd applaud him again for deciding it's now served it's purpose and closing it.

----------


## Chuck Naill

> It's not a problem that seems indemic among the builder community, which is why I think the suggestion is inappropriate.


You may have misunderstood. A consumer report praises the many fine builders available here and elsewhere while cautioning those with poor quality or business practice. I cannot say enough good things about the talent here.

I don't expect that the site owners here are interested, but it would be helpful. If  I were going to have my dream mandolin built and I knew in advance that it was going to take five plus years and thousands of dollars, I would find someone else.

----------


## Keith Erickson

> Kinda hoping this thread gets shut down, since it looks like it'll never die.  I think everything that could or should be said has been said at least a half-dozen times.  It's starting to feel like a public flogging.  Undoubtedly the luthier is reaping the result of financial irresponsibility and Neanderthal customer relations skills.  Short of tar-and-feathering, there's not much else that the Cafe community can do.  Sad to see real talent (and "artistry," whatever that is) diminished by inability to do business, but in our society, doing business is how you get your "art" to support you.
> 
> And now I've done just what I complained about**: repeated myself and forty-'leven other posters.  Fifteen pages is long enough.  The only benefit attached to further churning, is to provide an object lesson to anyone else who builds mandolins, or wants to.  Look what happens when you don't meet your deadlines, and compensate for it by belittling your customers!  Not a pretty picture -- and now I'm outta here, late for the door, whatever...


Allen,  Well said!!!!

Is it just me or did anyone else care to notice that the _Positive Luthier Experience_ thread is now sitting way in the back somewhere 4 pages behind this one?

Now back to practicing my mandolin & mandocello....  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## crandolin

I kinda feel some strange need to stick up for Mr. Wiens, perhaps it's because I am an artist and a businessman myself, perhaps it's because I've had a few negative client interactions myself and understand the trapped feeling of balancing your art/passion with your need to put food on the table. I have a unique perspective of being an artist (of sorts) as well as having a mandolin on order from the luthier in question here. I might also point out it was an order placed in 2003.

My thought is this: If I had ordered a cheeseburger from McDonalds, I would expect it to arrive quickly. But I didn't. I ordered a one-of-a-kind, custom instrument from one of the best builders in the world, from a personality that invests more in the process than any other luthier i've ever seen, and the result will be something that not only will I be able to play and enjoy, but something that will increase in value from now until forevermore. 

I once heard Craig Korth (many of you will know him as the banjo player with the mad sense of humour from the Alberta, Canada band Jerusalem Ridge) talk about his rationale for buying his Loar mandolin: (loosely paraphrased) "I could buy property, and pay taxes on it, or lose my shirt on it, and sit and wait for a piece of dirt to increase in value which MIGHT or might not happen, OR, I could buy a Loar mandolin for roughly the same price, insure it for it's full value, and have something that is beautiful to play and is guaranteed to increase in value". 

Owning an instrument like the one Jamie is building for me is something I can enjoy for my life, share with my family, and eventually pass on to one of my kids. I might have to wait a bit, and I might have to pay a bit, but in the end it will only increase in value and contribute to my life.

I think the main issue here is not 'Is Mr. Wiens wrong' or 'is client #2 or #4 right', I think the main issue is that the expectations of the process are unrealistic, and the blame for that, if there is blame to be laid, can be shared between the luthier and customer. The client comes with an expectation, the luthier is more or less obligated to tell them what they want to hear to close the sale, and then may be vague about the progress on the work because they don't want to offend the customer (which is inevitable if the expectations are there), and the client will press and push because they feel like the luthier has set out to deceive him from the beginning. 

In 98% of cases, it is simply a matter of blind optimism. We artist types have just as high of hopes and expectations on ourselves to work, to complete work, and to do a great job at it as the customers do. There is no purposeful deception, there is no willful thievery. There is simply a desire to pursue a passion and a need for clients, and money, to do so. 

I don't deny that there are better or worse ways to build all kinds of businesses, and building instruments is no different. It has been suggested in one of the posts on this thread that perhaps a switch to a build it _then_ sell it model is idea for the type of work. If any of you have been to Mr. Wiens' website since June of last year, you will note that he has indeed switched to such a model. In the process, however, we should all be allowed to make our mistakes and learn our lessons. 

I feel for the customers who have not had their expectations met. I truly do. I am sorry that they are missing out on the positive experience that could have been, and for the sleepless nights and the worry and threats and negativity. I am sad primarily that in the end they give up and sell their instrument before they get to strum a chord on it and therefore all that strife was for naught. This is a travesty because it all comes down to communication... both ways. But let us be clear about one thing: These personal vendettas, defaming websites, and private emails publicly hung out (out of context, I would guess, since we don't have the privilege of the entire conversation or email or the tone in which they were delivered) are counter-productive and potentially litigious. It does no good whatsoever. period.

I confess I have an advantage. I can walk up the street and have a beer with Mr. Wiens. I can talk with him and turn the mandolin neck over in my hand, and tap the unfinished sound-board and watch as the binding gets glued and scraped. I have the advantage of seeing the lifestyle of a true artist and being a bit more of the process, even though I swore to him at the beginning that I would never give him unsolicited input about how he should build my instrument, and there is the crux: I had the right expectations.

When I contracted my mandolin, I assumed it would take 5-10 years to finish. Is that a long time? yes. Is it worth it? In my opinion. Definitely. If a customer is going into the process I would assume it's because they have an idea what the product is worth. If a customer is getting angry and impatient I would guess it's because they have an idea of what it's worth. What I don't see is how a customer would let that anger suck all the positivity out of the process, and therefore the value. If we who love to play, can let those who love to build do so, we can smash this stereotype of the 'eccentric artist', even if the payoff is a ways down the road. I believe that as long as there are angry, demanding clients, there will be eccentric, frustrated artists. Chicken or egg?

So in the end it's all about expectations. Know what we're getting into and understanding that we didn't order a cheeseburger, but a man-made jewel. A one of a kind object. With that in mind, the builders and the customers could proceed with clear communication, and understanding the long-term value of an instrument that is near perfection is worth waiting for. Can we leave the past and work towards building a better way? It sounds idealist but I am living proof that it is possible. It might be 6 months before my instrument is ready. It might be three years yet. Either way I can't wait because I know what it's worth... and I've made a good friend in the process, which has value in itself.

Thanks.

mike

----------


## mrmando

Mike,

Which expectations are unrealistic?
Whose expectations are they?
And who said what in such a way as to foster such expectations? 

If you ordered a mandolin back in '03 and knew it would take 5-10 years, then evidently you were privy to certain information that somehow was not shared with Jamie's other clients.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

> What I don't see is how a customer would let that anger suck all the positivity out of the process, and therefore the value.


What positivity is there in the process when you are being mislead and verbally abused? It's not just one person saying this. Good for you that you assumed it would take 5-10 years, but the other people were told two and there is a big difference between two and five plus years. He told me two years a year ago and that obviously was a stretch of the truth. I'm really glad I didn't pull the trigger. There are too many great builders out there these days to put up with bull like this.

----------


## coletrickle

> I've had a few negative client interactions myself and understand the trapped feeling of balancing your art/passion with your need to put food on the table.


Food on the table = earning money = doing work = a job. If and individual's chosen career is to be an artist, it is also likely their sole source of income. They are not trapped, they have chosen a career that requires their art to become their merchandise. I admire those who are a) able to make a career out of doing something they love and b) translate an incredible skill into a business. I do not admire nor to I pitty those who chose this path and then complain about the challenges it presents. 

I do not have stake in this thread other than to comment that the output of other "artists" who make mandolins (many of which make very high quality instruments right in front of our eyes on this website) indicates they have found a way to balance their art with their need to produce enough art to make a living. They go hand in hand and are the sole requirement of being a working artist, period.

----------


## Perry

Here's how I've seen it work in the real world with so called "business" people:

If you take client's money you need to deliver product/service within a reasonable time. If you can't you should return client's money. Reasonable time is determined by client unless contract specifies otherwise. Return unhappy client's money and move on to next happy client.  If you spent ALL your clients' monies and can't refund one or two unhappy client's "retainers" then you have not been playing with "house" money and you got yourself a problem.

----------


## Andrew DeMarco

I'm not sure if "I'm an artist" is enough... It took Michaelangelo 4 years (1508-1512) to paint the Sistine Chapel ceiling...

----------


## doc holiday

Mike.  i thought this thread had served its purpose too. You are much too generous...but everyone is entitled to his/her opinion.  I still have a musician friend who has a Wiens mando in his cupboard with a sunken top....lots of promises to make it right....and this musician had his name used as a testimonial on JW's website and his early confidence in Jamie's abilities  sold quite a few mandolins on the central Alberta music scene.....

 :Coffee:

----------


## Chris Biorkman

> I'm not sure if "I'm an artist" is enough... It took Michaelangelo 4 years (1508-1512) to paint the Sistine Chapel ceiling...


Lol! Seen that one. Carving a scroll is much more difficult than painting upside-down by candlelight.

----------


## Marc Berman

> The client comes with an expectation, the luthier is more or less obligated to tell them what they want to hear to close the sale, and then may be vague about the progress on the work because they don't want to offend the customer (which is inevitable if the expectations are there)


Mike,
I have to say where I come from this is called lying. Telling a customer "what they want to hear" when you know it's not the truth to close the sale doesn't sound like being an artist. To me it sounds like a used car salesman (my apologies to any car salesmen out there). Why does any of the blame rest on the customer for believing the Luthier? 
I would be shocked to find out that the majority of the well known Luthiers out there use this method of selling their work.

----------


## Randy Smith

> So in the end it's all about expectations. Know what we're getting into and understanding that we didn't order a cheeseburger, but a man-made jewel. A one of a kind object. With that in mind, the builders and the customers could proceed with clear communication, and understanding the long-term value of an instrument that is near perfection is worth waiting for. Can we leave the past and work towards building a better way? It sounds idealist but I am living proof that it is possible. It might be 6 months before my instrument is ready. It might be three years yet. Either way I can't wait because I know what it's worth... and I've made a good friend in the process, which has value in itself.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> mike



Mike,

Thanks for your detailed message.  But what thread have you been reading for the previous 380 messages or so?  As far as building a better way, no argument here.  It's fair to say, however, that the consensus seems to be that your friend is the one who can initiate that change *if* he wants or tries to.

Randy

----------


## mandolirius

<So in the end it's all about expectations. Know what we're getting into and understanding that we didn't order a cheeseburger, but a man-made jewel. A one of a kind object. With that in mind, the builders and the customers could proceed with clear communication, and understanding the long-term value of an instrument that is near perfection is worth waiting for.> 

If they are told at the outset that they will have to wait an undertermined amount of time and that in no way can they put any pressure on "the artist" to finish it, fine. They can then decide it they're ok with that. That's not what they were told. Instead they were given false expectations and then insulted and abused when they acted in a way that was based on those expectations.

<Can we leave the past and work towards building a better way? It sounds idealist but I am living proof that it is possible. It might be 6 months before my instrument is ready. It might be three years yet. Either way I can't wait because I know what it's worth... and I've made a good friend in the process, which has value in itself.>

I find it ironic you used the phrase "I can't wait" because you obviously can and will. But will you still be singing the same tune if it turns into another 5-10 years? You've tried to make the case that a customer should be willing to wait as long as it takes. So will you? For another decade? Two decades? Your argument is as weak as it could be. It essentially boils down to "everyone should be just like me". It flies in the face of all reason or logic. You probably have one or more nice mandolins to play while you wait. You probably have a fair amount of disposable income. And, as you point out, you live within walking distance of the builder. Think that describes everyone? 

Artist or not, when you take deposits and make delivery commitments, you are in business, even if your business is art.

----------


## Mike Bunting

Crandolin, I can only second mandolirius' response. Your letter was pretty unrealistic to me and naive. I am tempted to make some comment about B.C. bud but shall refrain.

----------


## 250sc

Crandolin wrote "The client comes with an expectation, *the luthier is more or less obligated to tell them what they want to hear to close the sale*, and then may be vague about the progress on the work because they don't want to offend the customer (which is inevitable if the expectations are there), and the client will press and push because they feel like the *luthier has set out to deceive him from the beginning*." 


LOL. From your discription the luthier did set out to decieve the customer to "*close the sale*".

Not a convincing argument to me.

----------


## Rob Gerety

> The client comes with an expectation, the luthier is more or less obligated to tell them what they want to hear to close the sale, and then may be vague about the progress on the work because they don't want to offend the customer (which is inevitable if the expectations are there), and the client will press and push because they feel like the luthier has set out to deceive him from the beginning.


Herein lies the problem - you don't lie to people to close deals.  If you lie to them you have basically made a knowing misrepresentation of fact knowing that the buyer will rely on what you have said.  There is a word for that sort of behavior that I will not mention.  To my mind this is horrid behavior which should be condemned.

----------


## AlanN

And even more loathsome is to see the *artiste's* defenders coming out of the woodwork.

Sheesh.

----------


## jimbob

This thread has some serious legs ! I can't believe it's still going.
I'll take my coffee and go away now..... :Coffee:

----------


## jim_n_virginia

> The client comes with an expectation, the luthier is more or less obligated to *tell them what they want to hear* to close the sale, and *then may be vague about the progress* on the work because they don't want to offend the customer (which is inevitable if the expectations are there),


So let me get this straight Mike ... you are saying that it is OK for a Luthier to lie to a customer to close the deal just to get their money and continue to lie after the supposed work is going on just to placate the annoying customer???

ummm Mike I'm going to have to say you are full of you know what!  :Laughing:

----------


## Rob Gerety

I am just astounded by the contents of this tread.  While early on in the thread I explained my personal decision not to order custom instruments in the future I have to say now that never in my experience did any luthier treat me this way.  If he did I would insist on 100% of my money back in 10 days and when I didn't get it I would hire counsel, file an action, and seek an attachment against the luthier assets as fast as I possibly could.   No more letter writing.  No more excuses.  It would become a matter of principle for me at that point.  

Now, having said that, I personally think that there is nothing more of value to come from allowing this thread to continue.  The only possible exception would be if the luthier in question came forth with a humble apology to all and a sincere commitment to modify his behavior and his business practices.  No excuses, no blaming the customer, no blaming the world.  Just take the hit, make a real change, beg forgiveness and move forward.  If that happened maybe a year from now another thread would arise confirming that a real change did indeed occur and all would be well.  I don't see this happening - but one never knows.

I thank my lucky stars that I did not tangle with this fellow.

----------


## chasray

> I might have to wait a bit, and I might have to pay a bit, but in the end it will only increase in value 
> 
> I confess I have an advantage. I can walk up the street and have a beer with Mr. Wiens. 
> mike


Mike, some of these guys have sent him several thousand dollars. Are you in the same boat?

----------


## crandolin

*To clarify:* I did not condone anyone's behaviour, neither the luthier or the customer. I am merely saying that there is two sides to this and every story, and publicly defaming any person for any action is no better than telling someone what they want to hear. I just don't see balance in the thread and thought a different perspective might be valued.

Lying is NOT okay. But in every industry there are ways a person is expected to respond to a potential client and it's hard to break those conventions, and both the luthier AND the client are partially responsible for perpetuating those expectations.

I admitted I had an advantage, and yes, if it takes another 5-10 years to see my wiens I'm okay with it. It is not just the luthier's responsibility to change expectation. Not every customer HAS 5-10 years to wait. That's fine. Call Heiden or the like, who is also a fine person and a fine builder. There are plenty of builders who have tighter turnaround times and have more experience with the business side, and indeed run their shop more like a business. Or call Michelanglo and maybe he can build you one...

What I am saying is that I had decided to embrace 'the Wiens experience' from the beginning and it has been satisfying for me. Make your own damn choice but if you want a Wiens, then expect a unique experience.

I've been playing mandolin for about 10 years, and reading the cafe for about 7 off and on. I just never felt strongly enough about a topic to post until this one. Overnight I've been called 'loathsome', 'full of sh**' and a few other more subtle things.

So thanks for the friendly welcome everyone.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

The reason people are giving you a hard time is because you are defending something that is indefensible. We've all been presented with enough facts to be able to form opinions and you haven't said anything that makes what he's done more justifiable. All you are doing is rationalizing lies and theft IMO. Good for you that you don't mind being mislead, but that puts you in a very small minority.

----------


## 250sc

Crandolin wrote "in every industry there are ways a person is expected to respond..."

Yes, people are expected to respond honestly, to the best of their ability. Moral actions don't change just because it is during a business transaction. Especially in a business transaction.

As to people calling you names, your right that it isn't needed. Your own comments that in business, people are justified in saying anything to make the sale says more about your charictor than any name will.

----------


## Mike Bunting

I don't think that the waiting time is the issue, it's the attitude that people get when they inquire after being promised a due date and not receiving a mandolin. Anyone can accept a delay, that ain't it, it's the attitude.
  An aside to Mike, maybe if you weren't drinking beer with Mr. Wiens he could get more work done. (Just kidding!)

----------


## AlanN

Re: the intrepretation that my comment was directed at calling a particular person (who I don't know) a name on a public forum. Not my intent, and I apologize if you felt that way.

What I do find rather odd is the tone of your long post, that somehow the buyer/customer/victim (in this case) is partly responsible for the situation, because of 'altered expectations'. This I don't get.

----------


## GVD

> *To clarify:* I've been playing mandolin for about 10 years, and reading the cafe for about 7 off and on. I just never felt strongly enough about a topic to post until this one. Overnight I've been called 'loathsome', 'full of sh**' and a few other more subtle things.
> 
> So thanks for the friendly welcome everyone.


In those 7 years of reading the cafe have you ever seen *anyone* welcomed when their first post is a defense of lying?

----------


## Mandobart

I've read parts of this thread.  I don't know anyone involved personally in this issue, so I'm not taking any sides.  IMHO, this thread has served its purpose, so I'm posting a reply.  It's been my experience that for some reason after I make a post to a thread it dies, so I'm hoping that will happen here.  Best of luck, reason and peace to all involved.

----------


## BlueMt.

Mandobart,  I wasn't going to post on this topic but I couldn't bear to see your self esteem take another hit.  :Wink: 

I don't think it would be so bad if this thread was bumped to the top, everyday, until the offending party fulfills his obligations.

----------


## 250sc

Good job bart. If you or your friends aren't involved don't form an opinion. Time for your blinders.

""All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

----------


## luckylarue

To me, the big issue is the fact that Mr. Wiens could not afford to pay back one or more customers deposits because he blew the money.  Big problem in my book.  Also, Mr. Wiens has obviously benefited from his exposure on this forum so why should he not have to face up to public scrutiny?

----------


## Scott Tichenor

Here's where I stand on this.

If the membership wants to attempt to hold a public vote on whether this discussion will continue, you'll be wasting your time. I didn't open this topic on a whim, and the decision to close it will be mine and mine alone. My stance, original statements and reasons I opened this remain unchanged. The real story is still not public, and likely never will be. We didn't create this builder's problems and we're not responsible for cleaning them up, but it has forced a situation where his business practices need to be made public. Until the time I see a total reversal of these practices and all paid-in-full instruments are delivered, I have no intention of closing this discussion. Nothing concrete has changed here as a result of this lengthy discussion. Only promises.

----------


## Glassweb

Scott... what is your hesitation in revealing certain "known facts" regarding The Weins Saga? Jamie posted a lengthy response (early in the thread) so perhaps now it's time to reveal the entire truth about this dreadful affair. As they say, there's two sides to every story... I think the Cafe members deserve to hear the truth... no matter how ugly it may be. 

Jamie... you need to step up while there's still time. People can forgive if you give them a reason... i just don't think you've given them a reason... yet.

----------


## Tom C

No It's now called 'the Wiens experience'   see post #403

----------


## crandolin

Buy why Jamie and why now? Is this process so new and unique that we have to single out one artist above another and lambaste him publicly? He is accused of 'blowing the money', but what is the option? Start a trust fund? What about food? I can assure you Jamie doesn't drive around in a Cadillac. Certainly there are other examples that could be discussed? Here is a quote from a thread earlier this summer:




> If indeed he is off on his delivery date promises by years then he would not be alone in that behavior. I personally have had those experiences. There are a number of the best builders that have the problem. I have always chalked it up to the pursuit of perfection and the sometimes quirkie nature of the artist.
> Not good business.....frustrating as hell but a reality one should be prepared for.....


So if people have generally known about the habits of people who "pursue perfection" and "quirkie nature of the artist" then why the sudden animosity? Because of an anonymous website? Who can know for sure what was exchanged via phone and email with clients? Can anyone verify any of that? Is posting possibly misleading 'quotes' cut from their context any less lying than promising a date and not delivering? It amounts to some kind of kangaroo court in some ways, where a person is guilty until proven innocent.

I confess I don't know any of you well, though there are some that will read this that I have crossed paths with, and I understand that my posting now carries less weight than if I'd been posting all along, but whatever. It appears many of you have made up your mind. It is obviously a perspective that few are interested in hearing and I can't change that. If I am villified by association so be it, everyone needs a champion from time to time. Jamie is not a thief, not a liar, not a bad person, not a evil schemer using mandolin building as a front to extort hard-earned dollars from mandolin enthusiasts the world over. I do know that he has a gift for making beautiful instruments. I know that to pursue something as detailed and intricate as he and other builders do takes time, patience, energy, and skill. I suspect Jamie would not approve of my posting here, but whatever, no one else seems interested in defending Jamie, and by association other artists. Not condoning, defending. He does what I can't, that gives his passion value. His lack of perfection groups him with humans, a species of which I also qualify.

At any rate, I'm done here. Thanks for letting me say what I felt I needed to, I shan't bother you any longer. 

mike

----------


## 250sc

I keep hearing people write that they don't have both sides of the story. I'll admit that only the tip of the iceburg has likely been exposed but we have heard, first hand, from Mr. Weins and at least 2 of the other parties involved.

In my opinion Mr. Weins didn't help his cause at all by his post. He didn't dispute that he has taken money from customers and can't return it (he spent it?) or provide them with the mandolin he agree to make for them.

The other parties posts might be biased but they were reasonable and haven't been disputed by Mr. Wiens or anyone else.

Personally, I hadn't planed on contributing to this thread any more but when Crandolin tried to justify lieing to "close the deal" I couldn't help but comment.

Those who want this thread to be locked can stop reading it. I'm kind of proud of the people on this board and how well they've conducted themselves in this and other thread on the Cafe and my respect for Scott just grows whenever he contributes to this and all other threads.

----------


## Rob Gerety

I'm sure Scott has good sound reasons not to disclose the whole story.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

Goodbye, cruel world.  :Wink:

----------


## Glassweb

> I'm sure Scott has good sound reasons not to disclose the whole story.


i'm sure you're right Rob, i can only imagine there's legal ramifications in the mix...

----------


## Glassweb

> Goodbye, cruel world.


say it ain't so, bro!  :Wink:

----------


## Scott Tichenor

It's not appropriate that I take private statements from people who have asked me to not post information and make it public against their wishes. That would be simply wrong and is not going to happen. Stop wasting my time by continuing to ask. 

My job is to allow the community to discuss the issue. I have no beef with this builder other than the fact that I long ago tired (several years of it, actually) of being contacted by his customers asking what could be done to either 1) get their money refunded, or 2) get their instrument, 3) get off the wait list and their deposit refunded, or 4) as is common public knowledge, stop the abusive treatment received when they inquire into the status of their fully or partially paid purchase.

This thread exists as I've already stated as representation for those people who are really impacted at this time or may be in the future. That includes those customers that have chosen to post, those that are fearful of posting, and the builder himself if and when he truly decides to own up to the real story. So far, this has all been nothing more than a wink and a promise.

----------


## AlanN

Forget the Super Bowl...

 :Popcorn:   :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Rob Gerety

> He is accused of 'blowing the money', but what is the option? Start a trust fund? What about food?


Oh, please.  Stop this please.  This is ridiculous.  You can't run a business like this.  Its just a matter of time.   Seems like the builder here is at a cross roads right now.

----------


## Glassweb

> It's not appropriate that I take private statements from people who have asked me to not post information and make it public against their wishes. That would be simply wrong and is not going to happen. Stop wasting my time by continuing to ask. 
> 
> My job is to allow the community to discuss the issue. I have no beef with this builder other than the fact that I long ago tired (several years of it, actually) of being contacted by his customers asking what could be done to either 1) get their money refunded, or 2) get their instrument, 3) get off the wait list and their deposit refunded, or 4) as is common public knowledge, stop the abusive treatment received when they inquire into the status of their fully or partially paid purchase.
> 
> This thread exists as I've already stated as representation for those people who are really impacted at this time or may be in the future. That includes those customers that have chosen to post, those that are fearful of posting, and the builder himself if and when he truly decides to own up to the real story. So far, this has all been nothing more than a wink and a promise.


sorry Scott, i've been away from this thread for awhile and if folks have already proposed what i proposed regarding disclosure it's my goof and i'm sorry. with your post above things seem clearer than ever... at least to me. as to what Rob says about Jamie being at a crossroads... i couldn't agree more.

----------


## Chris Biorkman

Maybe crandolin is Jamie Wiens. It seems unusual to me that anyone would try to defend that kind of behavior.

----------


## 250sc

LOL. I'd hate to have Crandolin as my advocate.

----------


## G. Fisher

> So if people have generally known about the habits of people who "pursue perfection" and "quirkie nature of the artist" then why the sudden animosity? Because of an anonymous website? Who can know for sure what was exchanged via phone and email with clients? Can anyone verify any of that? Is posting possibly misleading 'quotes' cut from their context any less lying than promising a date and not delivering? It amounts to some kind of kangaroo court in some ways, where a person is guilty until proven innocent.


The animosity is not from the quirkie nature it's from the abusive treatment recieved from the builder. 

As far as proof goes. Read all of Scott's posts in this thread. He has proof and it's archived or he wouldn't let this thread go on. As he stated it isn't a whim it's years of info and time to let it out.

----------


## GVD

> ... Jamie is not a thief, not a liar, not a bad person, not a evil schemer using mandolin building as a front to extort hard-earned dollars from mandolin enthusiasts the world over.


"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet". - (Act II, Scene II). Romeo and Juliet

Or in this case stink just as bad as the crock you're serving up.

----------


## Christopher Standridge

:Laughing: 


> Maybe crandolin is Jamie Wiens. It seems unusual to me that anyone would try to defend that kind of behavior.


I was going to say this, but glad someone beat me to it.  You've all seen "A Beautiful Mind".  Maybe Crandolin is to Jamie, like that college roommate is to Russel Crowe. :Laughing:

----------


## Jill McAuley

> I suspect Jamie would not approve of my posting here, but whatever, no one else seems interested in defending Jamie, and by association other artists. mike


Oh, don't even bring "other artists" into it - it's been reiterated repeatedly throughout this thread that this is about ONE luthier in particular, not "luthiers in general". We don't feel compelled to defend other luthiers because they don't need defending - funny thing that, but when you are a stand up person who uses responsible business practices, while building amazing instruments then you don't need much defending.

As to all the "but he's an artist...." stuff, there are plenty of unbelievably gifted artists in this world, working in a variety of mediums, but that doesn't mean that they get to pass on basic stuff like honesty, decency, integrity etc. My late sister was an amazing artist, but guess what, she still had to pay her rent on time, wait in lines at the bank, and honor commitments made. 

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## David Rambo

I agree.  Forget the "starving artist" personna.  Perhaps crandolin should look up the legal definition of fraud, including mail fraud.  In spite of everyone's attempts to give possible reasons for the failure to deliver, money was still taken without an attempt to deliver a product.  A good lawyer could have a field day with this case, especially if he read this entire thread!

----------


## toddjoles

Originally Posted by crandolin 

"The client comes with an expectation, the luthier is more or less obligated to tell them what they want to hear to close the sale, and then may be vague about the progress on the work because they don't want to offend the customer (which is inevitable if the expectations are there),"

When I worked as a photographer, I never lied to make a sale. (quite often to get a smile though!) When I worked as a Private Investigator, I never lied to make a client happy or to make a sale.
When I worked as a Property Manager doing rentals for $8,000 a week, I never lied to make a sale.
I now work as a HandyMan and have never lied to make a sale or to keep a wealthy primadonna happy.

If you lie or tell the customer what they want to hear, you set yourself up for all kinds of problems down the road, as the AFKAJW is now experiencing.  Life and business is all about personal integrity, you either have it, or you don't.

----------


## Randy Smith

[QUOTE=crandolin;764675]Buy why Jamie and why now? Is this process so new and unique that we have to single out one artist above another and lambaste him publicly? 


     Why J.W. and why now? Go back and read why Scott T. reopened this thread--which is really a continuation of previous threads that have mentioned the issues being talked about here.  If you read his posting you should understand why he allowed this discussion to continue despite the Cafe's policy *not* to allow individuals to be singled out and lambasted.  This purpose of this thread is to discuss one builder, not all builders, because that's the term set for the thread to continue.

----------


## Mike Bunting

[QUOTE=crandolin;764675]Buy why Jamie and why now? Is this process so new and unique that we have to single out one *artist* above another and lambaste him publicly?

Artist! Give it up and revisit planet earth.

----------


## John Hill

Crandolin...er, Jamie...er, uh, I mean Mike: to say it's ok to lie to close a sale goes beyond shady and is simply out & out fraud.

And you marvel that people have been critical of your trying to justify this behavior?

----------


## mandolirius

Originally Posted by crandolin 

"The client comes with an expectation, the luthier is more or less obligated to tell them what they want to hear to close the sale, and then may be vague about the progress on the work because they don't want to offend the customer (which is inevitable if the expectations are there),"

Being vague about the progress on the work is precisely what offends customers. I think most people would be understanding and display some flexibility if they feel like they are being kept in the loop. 

As for expectations, you continue to make it sound as though you think it's unreasonable that customers who have sent deposits should have them. That's absurd. Of course they have expectations and have every right to them. Managing customer expectations is one of the jobs of a builder.

----------


## ...and Master of None

> ...He is accused of 'blowing the money', but what is the option? Start a trust fund? What about food? I can assure you Jamie doesn't drive around in a Cadillac...


Neither does he deliver the instruments that he has taken payment for, it seems, and that is what's at issue.  The question is not whether the Jaime formerly know as artist is becoming wealthy from fraudulent behavior, but whether or not he is engaging in fraudulent behavior, and from everything I've heard I can't think of any other way to describe it.  I'm not saying that fraud was his goal, but it certainly seems to be his means.

*Ironically, someone with a tenth of the talent people keep ascribing to him could be driving a Cadillac quite legitimately simply by getting out of bed every morning and putting in a good day's work in the shop, five days a week.*  And, if you're not willing to do that, then either starve or go flip burgers at McDonalds, anything else smacks of fraud.

*As for the talent ascribed to him...*

I've never seen one of his instruments, and I'm new enough to the mandolin that my opinion on the relative merits of this over that are worth exactly nothing.  But for all that I can't bring myself to describe *anyone* who has only delivered a couple of dozen instruments, almost ten percent of which have later failed, as an "artist," a master builder, or anything other than maybe a very promising novice.  

BTW, I think we're seeing a living example of why some trade guilds in earlier centuries would not allow someone to open their own shop until they went through an apprenticeship, worked as a journeyman under the supervision of a master, and then produced a "masterpiece" that met the approval of a jury of practicing masters.

Part of the art of building a very fine stringed instrument; be it a mandolin, violin, guitar, etc. is having the experience to balance the conflicting qualities of voice and longevity.  If luthiery can be described as an art, this is the ability that makes it so.  I say conflicting because generally the bracing and thickness needed to ensure that tops don't collapse comes at a cost of tone and volume.  A real master builder has the experience to balance performance against durability (and err slightly on the side of durability) so they don't have the tops collapsing on ten percent of their instruments.  A novice is still learning that - and if the novice is not working under the supervision of a master it's very likely to be a lengthy process with a relatively large number of weak instruments finding their way into customer's hands.

I would *expect* that a promising novice who hasn't yet developed that eye and that experience might well produce instruments that *sound stunning* - right up until the top collapses from inadequate bracing or carving that is too thin for the particular piece of wood chosen.  

I may get stoned for this but I even kind of feel a little bit sorry for those who *have* received their mandolins from this builder.  How many more tops are going to collapse in the coming years?  Are even those mandolins that don't collapse going to lose their value because the builder gets a reputation for building weak instruments?  

I suspect that the builder in question probably didn't set out to defraud anyone (Bernie Madoff's associates claim that of him, for what that's worth).  I think it's more likely that we have the case of a *novice* builder just beginning his craft when hopeful MAS addicts who have seen a handful of nice instruments start throwing money at him.  He takes their money and then discovers that he *isn't* the second coming of (fill in the blank).  He has trouble - some days it seems like nothing goes right in the shop and then tops start collapsing on instruments he's already delivered and he has no idea why or how to fix the broken instruments or prevent future instruments from failing.  Pretty soon he's burned through the deposits he's gotten, and so on.  After a while he comes to dread the thought of going out to the shop and facing that unforgiving chunk of wood and people come to visit him late in the morning and have to rouse him from bed.

That's all hypothetical, of course, but I can easily see that happening. It's even forgivable, to a point.  What *doesn't even begin to be forgivable* is then turning on those whose money you've blown, hiding behind the "I'm an artist" schtick, and so on - and especially, especially, *continuing* to take money from others.  It seems to me that we're far past the point where an *honest* man would face the fact that he cannot make a living building mandolins.  He'd stop taking people's money, get a real job, and either work his butt off in the evenings to finish the instruments he's already committed to or put every spare dime into eventually paying off those he owes money to.

Finally, I've known a number of artists, both commercial and fine, some of them quite successful and some of them not much more than wannabees working mundane jobs until their big break comes.  All of the real artists I know share one trait - *they simply can't "not do" their art.*  Even if their big break hasn't come and they're having to work 9 to 5 at an office - they then go home and paint, or sculpt, or do whatever their particular muse is calling them to.  If Jaime was really an artist it would be hard to pry him out of his shop, not the other way around.  I'd be willing to bet that if you polled the families of the really fine master builders in this forum most of them would probably tell you they have to pry the builder out of his shop for "face time."

John

----------


## R. Kane

> Neither does he deliver the instruments that he has taken payment for, it seems, and that is what's at issue.  The question is not whether the Jaime formerly know as artist is becoming wealthy from fraudulent behavior, but whether or not he is engaging in fraudulent behavior, and from everything I've heard I can't think of any other way to describe it.  I'm not saying that fraud was his goal, but it certainly seems to be his means.
> 
> *Ironically, someone with a tenth of the talent people keep ascribing to him could be driving a Cadillac quite legitimately simply by getting out of bed every morning and putting in a good day's work in the shop, five days a week.*  And, if you're not willing to do that, then either starve or go flip burgers at McDonalds, anything else smacks of fraud.
> 
> *As for the talent ascribed to him...*
> 
> I've never seen one of his instruments, and I'm new enough to the mandolin that my opinion on the relative merits of this over that are worth exactly nothing.  But for all that I can't bring myself to describe *anyone* who has only delivered a couple of dozen instruments, almost ten percent of which have later failed, as an "artist," a master builder, or anything other than maybe a very promising novice.  
> 
> BTW, I think we're seeing a living example of why some trade guilds in earlier centuries would not allow someone to open their own shop until they went through an apprenticeship, worked as a journeyman under the supervision of a master, and then produced a "masterpiece" that met the approval of a jury of practicing masters.
> ...


Great Post, John. Your handle is wrong: you think and write masterfully.

----------


## Bob Borzelleri

> Wow, although I wouldn't take a customers instrument to a tradeshow such as NAMM without asking first, I have routinely taken new instruments to jams and festivals prior to shipping them.  I've never had a "display" model, so I use my most recent builds to promote my instruments. I think I took 2 or 3 to the Midwest Mandolin festival last year.  I have a friend that has probably played every instrument I've built.  I rarely get to see the new owner play it, so its a treat to see someone really go to town on it and appreciate it in person.  Two years ago I went to a mandolin tasting where builders showed up with a number of their current instruments, and since all those builders have lists, I have to believe that those instruments were being shipped off to their new owners soon after the gathering.
> 
> That aside, I sympathize with those that have problems with Jamie and can appreciate those that are on his list not wanting to make waves.  I've played a Weins, beside a lot of past and present boutique builders, and it was an exceptional instrument.  If I had the money, I'd be willing to put up with his business practices for a couple years if I was confident I'd receive an instrument.  I think building on spec is his best avenue.  It may make sense for him to find a dealer/rep to help him manage the business end.


Andrew...

I'm not clear on what part of my post elicited your "Wow".  My main point was in response to the notion (in the earlier post) of having delivery delayed while the builder took the paid for instrument to a trade show.  

My secondary point was that paid for instruments, in my mind, belong to the person who paid for them.  I believe that would preclude any detours (trade shows, jams, festivals, etc.) on the way from completion to shipping without expressed consent of the instrument owner.   

...Bob

----------


## Bob Borzelleri

> Maybe crandolin is Jamie Wiens. It seems unusual to me that anyone would try to defend that kind of behavior.


I wish I could agree that it would seem unusual that anyone would try to defend that kind of behavior.  Perhaps one reason why Mr. Wiens has managed to perpetuate his business practices is defenses as that offered by Crandolin.  

All it takes for someone to justify behavior that results in criticism from many is the defense from one, every so often.  While it might be hard to stand in the face of an onslaught, all it might take to persevere is validation from someone.

----------


## AlanN

Big MoN (ok, maybe Little MoN  :Laughing: ),

You hit the nail squarely on the head, maybe the best post in this thread.

Collapsed tops? Oh my. The likelihood of getting those mandolins looked at (owned by already done and dusted customers) when there are [who-knows-how-many] half- or fully-paid-up customers waiting for their initial delivery of instruments is *very doubtful*. I don't know luthiery, but a collapsed top sounds like a big job to fix, touching much of the instrument to take care of. And at the rate this guy works, that could literally be years from now.

To quote Mr. T: I pity the fool.

And another thing: ST has been very careful, over the years, to not let the board be used for maligning, to the point where certain folks have been banned from board use. For him to 'open up' this thread and leave it open tells me that this has been a *long* time coming and that 'finally, the story needs to be told'...just to answer CranApple's myopic plea of 'Why now? Why Weins?'

----------


## Fretbear

> Part of the art of building a very fine stringed instrument; be it a mandolin, violin, guitar, etc. is having the experience to balance the conflicting qualities of voice and longevity.  If luthiery can be described as an art, this is the ability that makes it so.  I say conflicting because generally the bracing and thickness needed to ensure that tops don't collapse comes at a cost of tone and volume.  A real master builder has the experience to balance performance against durability (and err slightly on the side of durability) so they don't have the tops collapsing on ten percent of their instruments.  A novice is still learning that - and if the novice is not working under the supervision of a master it's very likely to be a lengthy process with a relatively large number of weak instruments finding their way into customer's hands.


While this would seem at first glance to make sense and be the case, the fact is that there are numerous sources for time-tested top and back grads (I compiled all available ones at one point) and the practice of delivering player's instruments built to significantly lighter than those specs, would just be irresponsible, experimental and/or an attempt to deliver a "broken-in" sound right out of the gate.

----------


## 8ch(pl)

I appreciate Scott's integrity in the handling of this post.  Far less than I appreciate the tactics of the Anonymous Website approach that got it started.  However, it is legal, just tacky.  However, saying this is no defence for Mr Wiens' abuse of trust. 

 I am ashamed that he is Canadian.  I wouldn't take one of his instruments as a gift.  I don't care how good they are, how great they look or how they sound.  Until his commitment to the customers that he is supposed to value is re-established and corrected, his products should be avoided.  No new orders until his present contract commitments are satisfied.

My modest instruments were made by a small company that had a great setback, changed names and continued, possibly on a smaller scale.  Yet the customer service and integrity didn't miss a beat.

Artist??????????  Inflated sense of self importance seems more like the truth.

----------


## kirksdad

> I appreciate Scott's integrity in the handling of this post.  Far less than I appreciate the tactics of the Anonymous Website approach that got it started.  However, it is legal, just tacky.  However, saying this is no defence for Mr Wiens' abuse of trust. 
> 
>  I am ashamed that he is Canadian.  I wouldn't take one of his instruments as a gift.  I don't care how good they are, how great they look or how they sound.  Until his commitment to the customers that he is supposed to value is re-established and corrected, his products should be avoided.  No new orders until his present contract commitments are satisfied.
> 
> My modest instruments were made by a small company that had a great setback, changed names and continued, possibly on a smaller scale.  Yet the customer service and integrity didn't miss a beat.
> 
> Artist??????????  Inflated sense of self importance seems more like the truth.



This is what is most important thing concerning this thread.....When will those people with deposits and caved in tops be taken care of ?

KD

----------


## Rob Gerety

> ... and the practice of delivering player's instruments built to significantly lighter than those specs, would just be irresponsible, experimental and/or an attempt to deliver a "broken-in" sound right out of the gate.


Yes - this is key.  And it would not be the first time a builder has risen to the heights quickly (especially in the internet age when builders get hot fast) and then crashed because he was building instruments that sound great right out of the box but that fall apart at the seams prematurely because they are built too lightly.  The trick is to get that power and tone in an instrument that will stand the test of time. Not sure at all that is what is gong on here - but I suppose it could well be.

----------


## crandolin

Okay, It is obvious that I am not going to change anyone's mind. That's okay. It's just hard to see a friend talked about publically, even if it was brought on by some of his own actions. I said what I felt I had to say and will say no more. I disagree with the moderator allowing this to continue, and if there is documented proof then a professional moderator should be sought rather than all this speculation. Even murderers are allowed a lawyer to give them a fair defense, here not so much. 

Speaking of speculation, again, since I can see people don't necessarily get the benefit of the doubt over here, I am a real person, here are some links to information about me, my band, my work, my blog, I have never tried to be anonymous. Against my better judgement I post these, but since your default opinion of me is so low already then what's the point of letting the speculation of my existence go on?

http://www.michaelhepher.com
http://www.asthecrowflies.ca
http://www.twitter.com/blueletterpress

I did create a profile a few years ago on the cafe, the 'forgot password' link didn't send my password, which I have forgotten. I suppose the Moderator could confirm a profile for one michael hepher if he wanted to. There is one person who requested to add me to a buddy list, if your intention was kind, I thank you.

Don't you just love the internet?

----------


## Chris Biorkman

Fair enough. My apologies.

----------


## Rob Gerety

I like those "As the Crow Flies" clips.  Nice stuff.  Maybe when we get back to talking about music you'll find this a warmer place.

----------


## Miko

This thread is _stillgoing on? Have you people no lives?_

----------


## Mike Bromley

> This thread is _stillgoing on? Have you people no lives?_


Hmmm...it does spill over a bit, huh. :Confused:

----------


## danb

> I'm kind of proud of the people on this board and how well they've conducted themselves in this and other thread on the Cafe


Boy I'm sure not proud of more than a handful of posts in this thread. How *well* the discussion has been conducted? I look back a few posts and I can see that the censor software blacked-out cuss-words, I'm seeing sarcastic movie poster images, and a bunch of folks who disagreed with what Mike had to say name-calling. "CranApple"? Really? Where was the carefully considered calm rational thought process when you were accusing him of shilling for or even just being an alter ego for Jamie? What's there to be proud of in that? Disagree with what he has to say, sure.. but once you stoop to ridiculing the person you dispensed with any claim to the moral high ground here. That's just the most obvious case in this thread where speculation trumped reason and evidence.

----------


## Gary Hedrick

There's not a lot to be proud of with a fair number of these posts. This thing has turned into a lynch mob mentality in a number of postings. Folks turning on each other etc and the approaching with jaded language an entire group of craftsmen and women that for the most part a good lot to deal with. 

Look you have a luthier that needs to be approached very very very carefully if at all. Let the buyer beware. Let those that have been burned take legal recourse. 

There are a lot of very good luthiers that do a great job of building instruments but it still is an issue of approach with prudent care.

I have seen a number of good people being slapped around on this one and frankly it isn't very nice or value adding.

----------


## man dough nollij

> I'm seeing sarcastic movie poster images...


Just trying to add some levity to a sometimes nasty thread, Dan. Hope nobody thought my post seriously proposed that Mr Wiens has a nihilistic alter ego. I have had experience myself with making amends for less-than-exemplary behavior in my past, so I empathize with Jamie, hoping for the best for him as a builder and a businessman. I've personally seen people come back from a lot darker mistakes than that.

----------


## Cornelius Morris

Lee,
You think that your movie poster added "levity" to a nasty thread?  This is what you call "empathy"?  Your post was nastiness itself.  

I'm not the first person to add that lots of this is becoming repetitive, but Crandolin's main point has gotten lost.  Many people here are speculating way beyond the evidence.  Crandolin actually knows Jamie very well (as does Dan, who has done lots of unacknowledged work behind the scenes in trying to move things along). * That has to count for something,*  but it has been dismissed or mocked outright, to the point that Crandolin posted personal information to account for himself.  (Walter:  are you listening?)  

I said before and will say it again:  my mandolin is on order with Jamie; I've paid lots of money already; and have had nothing but good communications with him.  Some people haven't, and that's how it this all began.  I don't dismiss or diminish the severity of those problems--nor has Dan B, for example, who knows the situation better than nearly everyone here.

Many folks here feel perfectly qualified and justified in attributing all sorts of sinister motives and pathology way beyond the very real problems that we know about.  Yet Crandolin's suggestions, based on his friendship with, and proximity to, Jamie and his situation, are thoroughly trashed, along with his own character.  Truly disgusting.  There's your "levity", Lee.

So, to repeat the repeated repetition:  I am a satisfied customer of Jamie's.  That doesn't mean that I minimize or excuse Jamie's problems documented with Jim or Walter (although Walter's unacknowledged deception in offering his own website as independent proof, essentially quoting himself and not acknowledging it, is deplorable).  But there are those here who can admit absolutely no grey area, and find that every failure or problem of Jamie's, reported here, stems from the deepest dark desire to deceive and to do harm.

----------


## Link

Come now. I don't think Lee's post was nasty. There's always room for a little levity.

----------


## Mike Bunting

Any comments I have made on this topic have been based what I have seen personal friends go through, definitely not on anything I have read about on this thread.

----------


## Cornelius Morris

That's fair, Mike.  But the same was true of Crandolin, and he got trashed to a fare-thee-well for trying to add a perspective that wasn't hostile.

----------


## Christopher Standridge

You have to admit Crandolin's first post, although seemingly legitimate now, at first appeared highly suspicious.

----------


## Cornelius Morris

"Seemingly"?

----------


## ledmandlin

Crandolin and other Weins apologists, ...where is Jaime in all of this?  If this thread has served its purpose--and Scott has more than adequately explained its continued existence, Jaime has but to return once more and publicly make amends and, perhaps, his friends will support him in his restoring his integrity.  As has been noted, Jaime benefited considerably from the enthusiastic support and exposure this forum gave him (yes, Crandolin, the internet is a marvel) and it cuts both ways.  As has also been mentioned, accountability comes with such an interface with a world who would have otherwise not heard of our friend for many years, if, indeed, he could prove he was everything that his early supporters found him to be.

Accountability gives substance to one's word.  Word and the trusted spirit of the word is what gives agreements legs on which to stand.  And agreements are what leads to consensual reality.
Admitting one's mistakes and making amends are how to heal wounded relationships, including the one we have with ourself, which would never lead to justifying bad behavior with bad thinking and defensiveness.

Grey areas--yep, ...Jaime has some dark areas, as do we all, that haven't been addressed and this is probably not his first wake-up call.  Like, maybe, all of us, he's a good guy and worthy of respect, understanding and much appreciation.  AND, he's behaved rather poorly, according to a number of people, who've taken exception to the way he's handled their relationships with him and, that's not NOTHING.  And it is resolvable.  Last time I spoke to Jaime, he was a reborn Christian man, for whom I know that humility is a cornerstone of character.  Admitting where we've fallen short and purposing to make right our wrongs is already laid out there, but I continue to wonder, where is Jaime Weins in this conversation?  Perhaps, the friends and close supporters of Jaime can help him in a public course correction, which, from all I've gathered could lead to the end of this thread.  Just sayin' ....

----------


## Cornelius Morris

Ledmandlin,
Please watch your rhetoric.  Trying to give one's own experience with JW, if it happens to be positive, isn't being an "apologist", and everyone who has tried to do that has neither minimized nor dismissed the problems.  I certainly haven't.

And Crandolin is "suspicious" in Lee's words?

----------


## Mike Bunting

> That's fair, Mike.  But the same was true of Crandolin, and he got trashed to a fare-thee-well for trying to add a perspective that wasn't hostile.


I just thought his comments were fatuous, going on about him being an "artist" too and all this diversionary nonsense about waiting time etc. when the issue all along has been Mr. Wiens attitude towards his customers and wanting to extract more money without any valid reason.

----------


## Randy Smith

> Lee,
> You think that your movie poster added "levity" to a nasty thread?  This is what you call "empathy"?  Your post was nastiness itself.  
> 
> I'm not the first person to add that lots of this is becoming repetitive, but Crandolin's main point has gotten lost.  Many people here are speculating way beyond the evidence.  Crandolin actually knows Jamie very well (as does Dan, who has done lots of unacknowledged work behind the scenes in trying to move things along). * That has to count for something,*  but it has been dismissed or mocked outright, to the point that Crandolin posted personal information to account for himself.  (Walter:  are you listening?)  
> 
> I said before and will say it again:  my mandolin is on order with Jamie; I've paid lots of money already; and have had nothing but good communications with him.  Some people haven't, and that's how it this all began.  I don't dismiss or diminish the severity of those problems--nor has Dan B, for example, who knows the situation better than nearly everyone here.
> 
> Many folks here feel perfectly qualified and justified in attributing all sorts of sinister motives and pathology way beyond the very real problems that we know about.  Yet Crandolin's suggestions, based on his friendship with, and proximity to, Jamie and his situation, are thoroughly trashed, along with his own character.  Truly disgusting.  There's your "levity", Lee.
> 
> So, to repeat the repeated repetition:  I am a satisfied customer of Jamie's.  That doesn't mean that I minimize or excuse Jamie's problems documented with Jim or Walter (although Walter's unacknowledged deception in offering his own website as independent proof, essentially quoting himself and not acknowledging it, is deplorable).  But there are those here who can admit absolutely no grey area, and find that every failure or problem of Jamie's, reported here, stems from the deepest dark desire to deceive and to do harm.



Cornelius,

1. I'm sorry Mike feels mistreated here.  I've been polite to him in my short posts (#393, 434), so some of the other posts bother me.  I felt sorry for Mike I read his message givings links to sites about himself and his band in order to account for himself, as you write.  No one should have to do that.  He deserves the apologies that have followed.

2.  However, I disagree with your reference to his "suggestions" in your third paragraph. Rereading his first message (384), I don't read anything he's written as a suggestion.  He does makes imo some ridiculous assumptions in this thread's context that I won't rehash.  His ending question, "Can we leave the past and work towards building a better way?" might read as a suggestion, but if it *is,*  it's a suggestion that needs to be directed to a "you" rather than to all of us.

3.  Thank you for mentioning Jim and Walter.  Perhaps Mike's posts might show some familiarity with the discussions that have been in progress on this thread so he could understand "Why Jaime?"  As far as Walter's deception, I won't defend it.  It is posting #1 here, but this entire matter long predates it.

Randy

----------


## ledmandlin

> Ledmandlin,
> Please watch your rhetoric.  Trying to give one's own experience with JW, if it happens to be positive, isn't being an "apologist", and everyone who has tried to do that has neither minimized nor dismissed the problems.  I certainly haven't.
> 
> And Crandolin is "suspicious" in Lee's words?


CM, which part of my rhetoric do you suggest I watch?  I had many good talks with JW while I deliberated pulling the trigger.  I liked him (and of course was enormously desirous of one of his mandos) and, even then, in '04, heard what he was saying--don't ask; don't tell; it's a process; it'll be done when it's done, (interspersed with the promise of two years) and I simply told him, it wasn't for me.  I read about the collapsed tops--and that there are any out there, unrepaired by the builder says a lot to me, if not to you, Cornelius--that's just not right; no one paid to have a collapsed top; not what was promised and not what can, ever, be rightfully left unresolved.

----------


## Cornelius Morris

Thanks, Randy.  By "suggestions" I meant Crandolin/Mike's offering of his own knowledge, experience, and friendship with JW, "suggesting" that there was more to the story and background.  I didn't mean that Mike was offering "suggestions" to to straighten things out.  And I myself haven't flown the "artist" flag here.  My point was a very simple one:  there are other stories of other dealings with JW, and some of them have been, and continue to be, positive.  The suggestions (sorry; the statements) that everyone who hasn't received a promised mandolin yet is cowering in the weeds, afraid to say anything for fear of some imagined retribution, is baloney (for me, and for several others that I know about).  Reporting an experience that runs counter to the developing consensus here is dismissed as being an "apologist".  I object.  And I repeat, for the nth time:  that does not condone or dismiss problems that others have had.  Can we be clear on that one?

----------


## Scott Tichenor

> Lee, I don't dismiss or diminish the severity of those problems--nor has Dan B, for example, who knows the situation better than nearly everyone here.


Wrong.

As much as I value Dan's contributions to this site and his friendship, he does not grasp the situation as I do, and quite frankly, is too close to it to be able and has heard mostly one side of the story: from Jamie. It shouldn't be his job to fix any of these problems, and I've told him as much.

It's not he who has been contacted repeatedly over the past 3-4 years by Jamie's customers about his bizarre business dealings. They didn't write to him and implore him for assistance or to take action or forward Jamie's nasty notes. By example, it's about three customers who have contacted me in the past two days with new sad stories ("please don't post any of this but... ") --more of the same. It's about people I can name who have told me privately, "you know what, I'm so sick of this guy (Wiens) that I've decided to move on." Dan wasn't the one that called Canada several years ago to tell Jamie if he didn't clean up his act he'd be out of business and that complaints had reached levels that I'd never witnessed from any single builder. All I got out of that call was a chuckle and a statement that "all of my customers are a pain in the a-s-s." Nice try. Wasted dime.

I've repeated this so many times I'm tiring of it. NOTHING has changed since this conversation was opened. The same customers who have been paid in full for what, 5-6 years with little or no communication--or worse, still sit empty handed. Oh, and there's plenty more to this than just that fact.

It'd really be better if all of you armchair web jockeys that don't have a stake in this would find something better to do with your time than posting clever images, calling people names and making accusations you can't support.

----------


## Cornelius Morris

Again with the rhetoric, my friend:  "unrepaired by the builder says a lot to me, if not to you, Cornelius".  

I simply reported my own experience, period.  I am more than glad to go on the record, if it will help you out:  I personally don't like collapsed tops; I believe all collapsed tops should be repaired.  Damn all collapsed tops, repaired and unrepaired, say I.  One more time, slowly:  I have simply reported my own experience.  That makes me neither an apologist nor deaf.

With all due respect,

----------


## Cornelius Morris

"Let's just sit back and watch all of the new Wiens mandolins roll off his assembly line."

We may disagree on some things, but I'm actually right behind this one.  

Thanks, Scott.

----------


## sgarrity

Call me crazy but I sensed a hint of sarcasm there.......

----------


## Scott Tichenor

> "Let's just sit back and watch all of the new Wiens mandolins roll off his assembly line."
> 
> We may disagree on some things, but I'm actually right behind this one.  
> 
> Thanks, Scott.


Yea, well, I removed that but it's a statement I made and then retracted. I've already ventured into territory I don't belong so I might as well spill some more. He's already been doing repair work for financial reasons so where do you think the emphasis is going to be now? Finishing mandolins that were paid for in 2005 and the money spent, or where the next meal is coming from?

And while you're at it, easy enough to do some web research and find a couple of legal cases where finance companies have gone after him in the past. If you want to spend $6 apiece to download the cases, you can. This little story is far from being told and has way more to it.

But leave it alone. Let's just sit back and watch mandolins roll off the assembly line. I'd be delighted to see that, but my feet are also on the ground.

Repeating for what, the fifth time? I didn't create his problems, I am not his problem, he is his problem. All I do is run this forum and I'm going to make damn sure people know what they're getting into before they give him $12K.

----------


## Cornelius Morris

OK:  "You're crazy".  Sorry, it's the darned levity getting to me.

No; I meant it when I agreed with Scott's point.  The blasted proof is in the blasted pudding (or gluing, or binding, or french polishing--or the shipping in the boxes to the waiting customers).  It's the best thing that JW can do.  I think that there will be a number of them finished rather soon.  But Scott is exactly right, and JW needs to prove it.  That's why I'm not an "apologist".

----------


## ledmandlin

Cornelius, I'm clear you don't condone certain behaviors and you have both positive experiences and attitude concerning JW.  There have been a number of posts actually making an argument for his practices and I didn't mean to imply that you were one of them.

While there are those who'd argue for certain measures to be taken to restore balance where it has gone off the rails, you represent a minority who are ready, willing and able to engage with Jaime on his terms, and many, here, respect your choice.

This needn't come to resembling a lynch mob, but it is a forum for inputting, responding to what has largely been found to be an egregious and, perhaps, belatedly addressed business practice.

For the record, one of the definitions of 'apologist' is 'friend' and 'supporter'.
I am that, to Jaime.  I want for his best, which I know doesn't include many aspects of his attitude and practices; if only because he told me so, directly and in so many words (between the lines, if you will).

Some of this talk may be, indeed, a slippery slope, but Jaime can put an end to it, or at least change the tenor and direction of it, at anytime.

I am pulling for you, Jaime.

Bruce

----------


## Cornelius Morris

You're right, Bruce.  "Apologia" in Classical Greek means "explanation".  "The Apology of Socrates", written by Plato, was not Socrates "apologizing" for his moral stance; it was his "explanation" to the Athenian court right before they condemned him to death.

Sorry; that ain't no part of nuthin.  Back to mandolins.

That's not a widely and generally understood meaning of "apologist", but in that sense you're exactly right.  I was merely explaining what I knew.  Not "apologizing" for any practices that nearly nobody here condones.  

And for all my insistence on clarity, I apparently missed that the "sarcasm" barb was aimed at Scott and not me.  I also did not mean to dismiss (especially since I didn't know about it ) the full extent of what Scott has heard, read, said, and dealt with during all this.

----------


## Randy Smith

> Thanks, Randy.  By "suggestions" I meant Crandolin/Mike's offering of his own knowledge, experience, and friendship with JW, "suggesting" that there was more to the story and background.  I didn't mean that Mike was offering "suggestions" to to straighten things out.  And I myself haven't flown the "artist" flag here.  My point was a very simple one:  there are other stories of other dealings with JW, and some of them have been, and continue to be, positive.  The suggestions (sorry; the statements) that everyone who hasn't received a promised mandolin yet is cowering in the weeds, afraid to say anything for fear of some imagined retribution, is baloney (for me, and for several others that I know about).  Reporting an experience that runs counter to the developing consensus here is dismissed as being an "apologist".  I object.  And I repeat, for the nth time:  that does not condone or dismiss problems that others have had.  Can we be clear on that one?




Cornelius,

Thanks for clearing up what you meant by Mike "suggestions."  I'm glad both you and his good experiences with J.W., and putting yours on the message board was the right thing to do.  I hope all of those waiting for their orders are as positive as you and Mike are.

As far as Mike's not understanding where this thread came from, maybe the moderator's last post will give him more of an idea. 

Randy

----------


## ledmandlin

Good post, CM.

I'm a big believer in relationship, communication and in the attitude and practice of love, which inherently recognizes that suffering is a call to respond, not to condemn.

We are so fortunate for the cover that Scott represents and maintains and many have acknowledged this as the guiding light of this thread.  Sarcasm, mudslinging and otherwise perceived excesses are fundamentally absorbed by ST's steadfast integrity and perspective.  Thanks, Scott; thanks Cornelius; thanks Crandolin and thanks Jaime.  You've got our attention; I trust we have yours.

Bruce

----------


## Richard Morrison

I've just read all this for the first time and also just looked at JW's website for the first time and all i can think is what a shame. JW builds beautiful mandolins and it looks like he started out right but changed priorities somewhere along the way. I wish i had his talent cause i darn sure wouldn't be workin' for the man and livin' check to check. There are people out there who would give anything to be able to build mandolins all day and have people wait in line to give thousands of dollars to own one. Now he's just sitting there reading this while reality sets in and it all falls down around him.

Just my .02

GEAUX SAINTS!!!

----------


## Glassweb

[QUOTE=Richard Morrison;765274] I wish I had his talent cause I darn sure wouldn't be workin' for the man and livin' check to check. There are people out there who would give anything to be able to build mandolins all day and have people wait in line to give thousands of dollars to own one. 

I'm with you Richard... ain't _that_ the truth!?

----------


## turpintony

As I sit watching the pre game show I re-read allot of the posts in this thread. I have not felt the need to respond as I personally have no issues with this builder. I am making an attempt, as I see it, to place the main issues in a very abbreviated nutshell. 

1. Jamie began his building career as a very talented luthier and earned the respect of folks on this site as well as the music community. His work as I have researched garnered him allot of very special praise and recognition. I find that most all who received one of his mandolins were impressed and satisfied. It seemed a person who wanted a special instrument need only order a Wiens. Many did.
2. As sometimes happens whether for good or bad life enters the picture. Giving Jamie the benefit of doubt in his explanation of events that occurred it is apparent that circumstances, albeit, money,relationship,family obviously effected the Wiens mandolin world. That is not to defend the business malpractice it is only to say people deal with adversity in different ways. The personal issues changed the priorities in this business and customers were affected. 
3. The final chapter for this novel is yet to be written. The outcome to be determined and the lasting interpretation of this luthier determined. At the end of the day if this talented builder is to be successful he must remedy the issues in a satisfactory manner with his customers. Refunds,reduced prices,delivery of a great instrument and some explanation and proof that he is back in control of what had him on the fast track from the beginning. 

Remember the customer is what will keep you in or take you out of business. Personal issues under the bridge and re engage your customers or a bad ending to a sad story. Go Colts !

----------


## Andrew Faltesek

Quite a story. Being a visual artist and craftsman myself, I can certainly understand the desire to work to a high standard through a dedicated and personal technique/approach model. Once the process becomes a commercial venture, however; a certain practicality and responsibility must be upheld, and yes, it involves the critical elements discussed...money for work, promises, and timely completion.

Mr Wiens is one man trying to satisfy the desire of many individuals who want one of his mandolins, by which all accounts are very nice. The idea of a production que is fair, and a modest payment up front is also fair. But when timelines are going out years and substantial sums of money have been remitted in advance, problems are going to be inevitable...it's just bad business practice.

I know craftsman/contractors who will only focus on completing the job at hand, even to the exclusion of a substantially larger job available. Everyone gets their job done well, and promptly, with all attention focused on their particular project. Guess what. All the clients are happy, they recommend the craftsman to others, and even the people who had to wait a bit are eventually very happy also. Other workers I know who take on multiple projects all have the same problem...the slippery slope, less than pleased clients, and the juggling act.

I know of a cedar-canvas canoe builder who was happy to put you on the list for one of his sought-after canoes. He was upfront about the wait, but also fairly accurate on the timeline, and pretty consistant with his production rate, so there was little suprise. Now, I would consider the level of his craft to be an "art" and the construction is a detailed, involved process. Conveying yourself over the water in his work would have an aesthetic equivalence to picking a fine mandolin, perhaps. His legion of happy customers is due in no small part to a very dedicated work ethic, and also in his later years employing some assistance.

I think Mr. Wiens is on the right track in getting his production under control, and reducing the number of people he accepts pre-production money from. He may well consider using a helper to increase production rate, but I don't sense that is as important to him than complete control and quality.

As long as he is able to have the means to obtain the supplies he needs for each unit with a modest down payment, and perhaps batch the construction processes with say, two units at a time, I'm not sure why he couldn't produce two very fine instruments in twelve months. That is, with a dedicated work ethic...the endeavour is, after all, a business.

----------


## Ted Eschliman

*IMPORTANT UPDATE.*

Just a word of warning that after 20 some pages, we have decided to "sunset" this lengthy thread. We will give it four more days so that any invested parties (and the builder himself) have a final chance to have their say. The issue has been thoroughly discussed for nearly a month, and non-involved parties need not add any more content, so we are asking that if you aren't directly involved that you refrain from adding any more posts. *On Friday, February 12th we will lock the contents.*

All replies will remain in the discussion board's archives. As policy, further discussion on the subject will not be allowed on the discussion board until the builder has begun the process of truly making amends with the violated parties.

On behalf of Scott and the Moderator staff, please understand that silence in this issue has never been a feasible option. Since the Cafe is somewhat responsible for some of the initial notoriety of the builder, an awkward "guilt by association" weighs in as an unofficial endorsement for his work and subsequent questionable business practices since. That said, we feel a sufficient amount of transparency has been introduced into this situation, and it's now time for us to move on. 

*Again, we have four days to wrap this up, and from then on, this will remain only as Message Board History.* For those of you who have been uncomfortable with all this, we appreciate your understanding and patience.

----------


## crandolin

Thanks to those who's opinions appear to be bringing this thread back to some sort of sanity. I agree with the moderators decision to close, it. Thanks to those who have expressed clearly and calmly their opinions, even those that are different and diverse. I kinda feel like the sacraficial lamb of this thread but sometimes everyone plays that role. Thanks Dan B. for standing up for me, I appreciate it. 

FYI, I was up at Jamie's place the other night, and saw the inlay go into the headstock of my mandolin. It does look fantastic. Just trying to end on a positive note.

----------


## 8ch(pl)

I actually kind of regret the last message that I put in this thread,  I don't have any real reason to post, I was probably not inthe best  humour.  The post did not add anything to the online discussion.  I apologize to any that I may have offended, even to Mr Wiens

----------


## 250sc

Crandolins statement that builders tell their customers anything they can to close the sale is the reason I had to comment. He wrote it, signed it and should be called out for it. How can he possibly defend such behavior?

----------


## Randy Smith

Ted,

Thanks for your note/notice. I hope this post is acceptable since I'm not restating an argument or trying to have the last word.  

I only want to thank the Cafe for reopening this thread since doing so let many people say what they needed to say.  Scott, thanks very much for your messages, which were especially needed warnings and clarifications.

R.S.

----------


## MandoCowboy

I wish to express my thanks to the Mandolin Café for allowing the story to be told and this thread to be opened for discussion.  Wiens needed to be exposed so that others could weigh the pros and cons before they made a decision to purchase.  I and others did not have that option because the PR campaign that vaulted him to high stature amongst high end builders did not reveal the dark side of doing business with him.  I for one would have never commissioned such a builder who has utter contempt for clients (who merely desired that Wiens honor his word) if I had access to a thread such as this.

First off a little about me.  I’m 52; played guitar up until 45, it’s been all mandolin since.  I’ve had my own consulting business for over 30 years in the Commercial and Military Satellite Communications and Scientific Radio Astronomy fields.  I’ve participated as a team member on projects that totaled into the hundreds of millions of dollars in both expense and gained revenue, both domestic and international.  If you’ve talked long distance on a phone, have Direct Broadcast Satellite Cable TV, or seen any TV programs on the study of the universe, chances are I’ve got my name on the project.  Ever see the movie Contact?  I worked on many of those Radio Astronomy instruments depicted in the movie and have done research for SETI.  I can assure you, I would not have lasted 30 days in business for myself if first and foremost  I was  a person who could not deliver on promises.  A resume is waiting for those who make a request.

I would like to address the issues raised concerning the website www.custominstrumentwatchdog.com.  It is a collaboration of which I am a part.  I personally felt that I was not going to be able to do all the writing as I was too close to the subject at hand, and thus a collaboration of individuals went into the editing.  A decision was made that the best way to present the facts, and the story, was to tell it in third person.  It’s that simple.

I have in my possession all of the email correspondences that were quoted on the website.  The accuracy of which is 100%.  There is much more unsavory verbal content that could have been included, but to keep the issue to the point only the ESPN highlights were used.  It was enough.

Why the website?  It became painfully obvious that I was getting nowhere with Wiens,  plus the level of contempt and the smugness of his attitude were strong indicators of self-belief in high enough barriers of insulation that Wiens was not compelled to honor his word nor his contract to me.  Wiens may have border protection, but his business exists  via the internet.  When I discovered Jim’s story, we both felt a strong passion to expose the horrible business practices so aptly named the “Wiens Experience” to others so that, at least there’d be a chance that a platform could exist to tell the mandolin community that he’s not what the Wiens PR campaign makes him out to be.

Until Wiens has made whole, those from whom he has taken so much, both in dignity and in monetary value, the story will continue to exist on the website, and as it seems also, here in the Mandolin Café.  As stated on the website, its purpose is to give voice to those who find themselves trapped and strapped to an unscrupulous custom instrument builder and we welcome others to send us their stories.

I feel I need to make comment on some of the Wiens statements in his feeble attempt to defend himself.  Excuse me while I take the white gloves off.

_“Having a client of mine go sideways on me and drag my name out in public is embarrassing enough”_ Actually the embarrassment is having a builder go sideways on his clients.

_“In a nutshell, I'm late in completing an instrument for a client and he's upset.” _ It’s much more than that Wiens, I and others have been insulted by you, in addition to being ripped off.

_“It's not the first time I've been late with an instrument order, and to be perfectly honest, I've been late with just about every custom instrument I've ever built for anyone. I'm famous for it”_ Actually I think it’s more accurate to substitute the phrase “not honored my word” to properly interpret “been late”.  You have no problem coming up with completion time lines when it comes to closing on a client and taking the money.  Nice scheme you had going.

_“I think I have enough understanding of these behaviors that I can, and do try to help my clients through these feelings whenever they surface.” _ A classic “con man” line.  There now, let me show you how I can make you feel much better about this while I siphon your hard earned money.

_“I don't think I need to point out that the particular client in question is behaving in an extreme and unscrupulous manner beyond anything that is reasonable.” _ Another classic “con-man” approach.  It’s all my fault that I’m acting this way and didn’t let you sooth my ruffled feathers and be OK with the lies and deceit.  Beautiful.

_“Suffice it to say that an instrument was ordered in 2007 with a projected completion date of spring 2009.” _ Wrong Wiens, you altered the order to seduce an extra $5000 from me with a completion date of summer of 2008.

_“After a half dozen hostile & threatening emails over several weeks that spring, and a refusal to call me to sort it out, I finally phoned him, hoping we could resolve the issue. Despite an hour spent on the phone trying to talk things through...It was clear that there would be no reasoning with him. He cancelled his order the following day.” _ See the website for an accurate accounting of this episode. After 2 weeks with no progress pics I allowed your call to be answered, where instead of a “Hello, how are things going” introduction, you proceed to severely berate me over the phone with the “bad-ass” builder act.  I wasn’t backing away from my request to show progress, thus I got another dose of insults.  It started to become very evident to me that the “Wiens Experience” was in tour de-force and I wanted no further relationship with you and requested that you refund my money.

_“I explained that I didn't have the money to refund him immediately and that it'd take some time to find the right client to take his place. He agreed to give me 3 weeks to come up with the money and spelled out to me that after that, his pride wouldn't allow this kind of sleight and that there would be consequences.” _ Wrong again Wiens.  The facts are that you requested and were given 2 weeks to refund the money, which of course you did not.  What you did instead was, embark on an unusual and amazing amount of mandolin production by producing 3 finished products in a little over 3 mos.  The startling production rate after over 2 years of not producing a single custom ordered mandolin was obviously motivated by your need to show the mandolin public that things are back to normal.  Nice try.

_“That brings us up to now... To my knowledge thus far he has A; sent out a sinister-sounding mass email to many of my family, friends and clients.” _ Wiens had CC’d other people on past emails to me.  I was trying to contact other folks who had a Wiens mandolin on order, as I was not quite sure if the “Wiens Experience” was a solo act reserved just for myself, which I later found out, that I was not his one and only.  Here’s the text.  You be the judge on the sinister content.

Hello, 
I currently have a mandolin on order with Wiens. 
Was wondering if anyone on this email address string has a mandolin on order with him as well. 
Please contact me if you do. 
Thanks,

_“B: posted ads here in the cafe classifieds to sell “his build slot” which I explicitly forbid him to do over the phone”  _ Well, actually Wiens, I got the OK from you to sell the slot anywhere but on Mandolin Café.  Wonder why.  Of course then, there are your own efforts to find a buyer for the slot to be considered.  Don’t see much difference.

_“C: Started smear threads ..one of which you are now reading..Which of course serve to scare my present and future clientele and make life and income difficult for me.” _ It’s a “fact  thread” Wiens and I’m not the only one of your clients that you have shown contempt for.  As far as your future business prospects, I’m sure you’ll root out a few, after all, wasn’t it Barnum and Bailey that said there’s a sucker born every minute.  Plus, you have your PR dept. working overtime on spin.  You’ll be fine.

_“D: he seems to have has created an actual website under the guise of a legitimate "custom instrument watchdog" in which he attempts to paint some picture of me as a fraud artist.....”_ I’ve discussed the website above.  I think that if any picture was painted it was with a Wiens brush in his hand, but I did provide the canvass.

This will be a 2 part posting.  Please read the continuation of this post a little further down the thread......

----------


## MandoCowboy

Part 2 of the original post..............................................  ...

_“What am I doing about it? For starters I've announced on my website that as of June 2009 that I will no longer accepting orders for instruments from anyone…….Wiens instruments will simply be available as they are completed and you may put your name on a waiting list for a small fee.” _ So,….let’s see.  Instead of getting $2K lump sum deposit from a few, you’ll go after $250 from the many.  Nice.  Oh, and they get to wait in line and then possibly bid against each other.  What a novel concept, revolutionary in the world of custom mandolin sales, but I do think I hear a flushing sound.  Of course there are the benefits to consider for those who forked over thousands and thousands of dollars and got an instrument.  One might that be the continuous duty of running to the closet every 24hours to make sure the top hasn’t collapsed or fearing some other manufacturing defect malady that might befall it.  Good luck with that warranty.  We all know how that’s worked out for some.

_“I arrived at this decision….also because of other negative interactions with people in the past.” _ You mean you have a history and in reality it’s just not a “rough period”? We’ve discovered you’ve had customer relation and mandolin production problems going back at least to the year 2000.  See Post 61 in this thread.

_“What about this individuals instrument order and his money? As of Jan 18th, I have made arrangements for the sale of his instrument when it is completed ( FYI It requires a fretboard and inlay and then it's on to finishing )…… the client in question will receive a refund once he's signed a release of contract .”_  Wiens sent me this same note in an email.  As of today I have not been refunded any money.  Funny, the mandolin only needed fretboard, inlay and finishing 2 years ago.  Anyone wish to wager on Wiens coming through with this promise?  I thought not.  Besides, the interest clock started running on the monies owed retroactive to 2007.  Pretty soon there will be enough in the till to hire legal counsel.  I’m sure the funds will be available because the new Wiens business plan is sure to attract a fortune for him.

I’m now onto the next phase of my issue with Wiens.  I really do not think that I’m all that high on his priority totem pole, despite his utterances, and the massive impact of this thread on the mandolin community at large.  That’s his mistake.  I will be contacting authorities in Canada to have them seek a criminal charge(s) against him for his unethical business practices.  I’m sure his production rate won’t change much should he end up in prison.  I hope Wiens get’s that mando’s fret board, inlay, and finish completed soon because time is running out.

I read where some cried a river over the negative subject matter of this thread.  Take a moment and think about the years of darkness for those unfortunate enough to go through the “Wiens Experience”.  Think of how that happened.  The Café was full of glowing reviews, soundclips, and articles were published in respected journals, a listing of Wiens mandos now appear along side the revered Loar Archive website list, all to feed the Wiens PR campaign persona of the “next great new builder”.  Nary a word connecting his name with sorry business practices and collapsed tops and warrantees unfulfilled.  Good folks sent him hard earned money based upon the effects of that PR campaign.  That’s a sad state of affairs that’s now been rectified.  Yes Virginia, bad things do happen in Mandoland, and after all’s said and done, hopefully the streets will be a little safer to walk through.

As seen, there are Wiens customers that have no truck with him, even to have waited as long as 7 years to just get to see the inlay placed upon the headstock and are giddy with excitement.  It’s easy to see that some supporters are drunk on the Wiens PR Coolaide, bless their hearts.  Far be it for me to have upset that happy state of mind.  I offer my sincerest apologies to all affected, and I wish them well.

On the other hand there are those who once tasted the Wiens Coolaide in enjoyment, but now spit it out in disgust.  I know it’s an extremely difficult position to be in as one of Wien’s unhappy customers of which we know there are more than Jim and I.  It’s disappointing that enlightenment only travels up so far as Scott’s e-mail in-box, but I truly understand your predicament.

Ultimately reason could be counted on, so, those clear headed thinkers who recognized this sad tale for what it is in real world perspective, my thanks for your posts of clarity.  Included are Scott and the Mandolin Café moderators.  (Holds up a beer)…….Cheers.

Finally, those who have been contemplating a custom mandolin, I’m absolutely sure, as a customer, you’re much more the wiser.  Those builders of good report, I’m positive your coffers will runneth over with clientele.  Those builders on shaky ground, you know who you are.

Not the least, to my friend Jim.  I assure you that should all my monetary disputes with Wiens  be resolved, it will include restitution of your $450 that was taken from you under duress from said builder.  On that day, I think I may go and buy a lottery ticket before the luck runs out.

Walter

----------


## Ted Eschliman

A gentle reminder that we have three days to wrap this up, and from then on, this will remain only as Message Board History. Invested parties are urged to make their comments before February 12th.

----------


## Gary Hedrick

Looks like Mando Cowboy has done his homework and is very detailed in his information about the dealings of Mr Wiens. Little to say about it other than someone needs to clean up his act.

One point I do want to make.....you blast the issue of a top caving in...there are lots of builders over the years that have tried to make the tops as lively and dynamic as possible. Sometimes with the choice of graduations and the selection of the wood and the pitch of the neck, they get a failure. 

It isn't the failure that is the problem, it is the business practices that are and how quickly he goes about taking care of the issue, that is the problem. 

I've seen failures and builders that immediately took care of the issue and made things right. It's going to happen once in a while if a builder is sorting out their trade and their design. What they do about it is the mark of a true, high quality craftsman.

----------


## MandoCowboy

> One point I do want to make.....you blast the issue of a top caving in...there are lots of builders over the years that have tried to make the tops as lively and dynamic as possible. Sometimes with the choice of graduations and the selection of the wood and the pitch of the neck, they get a failure. 
> 
> It isn't the failure that is the problem, it is the business practices that are and how quickly he goes about taking care of the issue, that is the problem. 
> 
> I've seen failures and builders that immediately took care of the issue and made things right. It's going to happen once in a while if a builder is sorting out their trade and their design. What they do about it is the mark of a true, high quality craftsman.


Hi Gary,

I agree problems arise with best of builders.  That's where a solid warranty service comes in.  Wiens it seems is lacking in that area, which is really no surprise.  The very idea of a good builder is summed up with the word integrity.  Not just in working with wood, but in keeping promises, honoring contracts, good communications, refunding deposits when asked, etc., etc.  In fact it has to touch every aspect of his business.  I would say that it touches few in my issues with Wiens.  Buyer beware.

Walter

----------


## dcoxmandolin

This is a first post for me here at the Cafe.  I felt compelled to stand by my friend Mandocowboy.  I remember when he first told me of his desire to purchase a Weins mandolin.  I too looked up this builder to see what he was all about.  I also recall his disappointment with this builder and the frustration he was having.  First off, Walter would give the shirt off his back to someone in need and that's rare these days.  First off, "Mr Weins, you should be ashamed of yourself"  :Mad: for your behavior to my friend.  I'd also like to thank the Mandolin Cafe for their willingness to "Go The Extra Mile".  My hope is that this matter is resolved and my good friend is refunded his money.  It's especially infuriating to see this when so many folks are struggling to make ends meat.  "Mr.Weins" please do the right thing here.

----------


## Nelson Peddycoart

I had kinda forgotten about this thread and assumed that those people with complaints would address them to Mr. Wiens.  It seems to me that there has been alot of damage done to Mr. Wiens reputation, and I would guess, his enterprise. 

Is it possible to have an interview style article or something so that Mr. Wiens can go "on the record" to the mandolin buying public?  I know that he did post at least one message in the thread, and could do more.  However, one has to assume that anyone would be shy to get in the middle of such a storm, particularly when then are the reason for it.

Given the chance to come forward and make amends where they are due, and do some repair to his business seems to be in his best interest.  Who knows?  It might produce the best outcome for all parties involved.

----------


## mandolirius

> I had kinda forgotten about this thread and assumed that those people with complaints would address them to Mr. Wiens.  It seems to me that there has been alot of damage done to Mr. Wiens reputation, and I would guess, his enterprise. 
> 
> Is it possible to have an interview style article or something so that Mr. Wiens can go "on the record" to the mandolin buying public?  I know that he did post at least one message in the thread, and could do more.  However, one has to assume that anyone would be shy to get in the middle of such a storm, particularly when then are the reason for it.
> 
> Given the chance to come forward and make amends where they are due, and do some repair to his business seems to be in his best interest.  Who knows?  It might produce the best outcome for all parties involved.


That might be an idea worth consideration if there were the slightest evidence that Mr. Weins has anything to add. So far he's been quite unequivocal - you pay your money and then you wait for as long as it takes. If that wait is ten years or more, you endure it and you do so in silence. Under no circumstances are you to pester the artist with questions about deliivery. To do so will only result in further delay.

What else is there to say?

----------


## gtrmaker

Okay, I do have a horse in this race.

I contacted Scott over a year ago about whether I could start a thread to discuss my situation and was told NO. You can imagine my surprise when this thread was allowed and even more that it was allowed to continue. I have watched this thread grow and have been hesitant to post because for me this situation is very emotionally draining. But here I go....

I have had numerous negative interactions with Jamie regarding the status of my 5 1/2+ year mandolin order. In '04, I was told there were a couple orders in front of me and that the lead time was 1 year when I sent my deposit. 

For the record, in our interactions, he never resorted to verbal abuse. 

Am I happy that he has finished other peoples mandolins before mine which I know were orders he took after mine? NO! 

Am I happy that a mandolin which supposedly was built for me he sold out from underneath me without ever consulting me? NO!

Has he constantly blamed me and my negative energy as the reason for all the problems? YES!

Has he ever apologized for any of this? NO!

Do I think Jamie is talented? YES!

Is it a shame that this is happening? YES!

Would I still like to receive my Wiens mandolin as contracted? YES!

I will not go into further details other than to say that I have gone back and forth with Jamie for years and still no mandolin. In one of my email discussions with him I tried diligently to get him to understand that a builder with his skills should be receiving mad accolades for his instruments. I also told him that if he doesn't make a concerted effort to make major changes in his business practices and stop blaming the customers that this was going to blow up in his face. And here we are!

I contacted a lawyer to pursue legal action but put this on hold after Jamie promised me that he would work hard to get my mandolin finished in early 2010. Am I any closer to getting my mandolin? Only Jamie knows. Will I take legal action if he does not make good on this promise? ABSOLUTELY! I received a recent request from him for more money because this public discussion has hurt him financially and forced him to seek other means to support himself which means that he is not concentrating on the mandolins he owes people. Whose fault is all of this? It is clear to me that it is 100% Jamie's.  

FYI, I have been custom building acoustic guitars for over 25 years and have NEVER treated a customer in the way that I've been treated!

Jamie, whether or not there is a happy ending to this story is 100% up to you. I hope you realize this and take immediate action which can only start with a public admission of what you've done and what you plan to do about it. Then, buckle down and make it happen!

----------


## Nelson Peddycoart

What is left to say might be things such as:
"I was wrong."
"I am sorry."
"I have made restitution to all those who have made a financial claim against me."
"I love making mandolins and would like to earn the trust of the mandolin community again."

----------


## mandolirius

> What is left to say might be things such as:
> "I was wrong."
> "I am sorry."
> "I have made restitution to all those who have made a financial claim against me."
> "I love making mandolins and would like to earn the trust of the mandolin community again."


But there has not been so much as the slightest indication he has any intention of saying these things (or feels he has to), so...

----------


## mandophil(e)

Am I the only one who is wondering, after reading all this, why Wien's mandolins occupy "a place of honor" on the Mandolin Archive?

----------


## gtrmaker

> Am I the only one who is wondering, after reading all this, why Wien's mandolins occupy "a place of honor" on the Mandolin Archive?


1) Business practices aside, he builds an excellent mandolin. As for where the Dudenbostel, Hester, Brentrup etc. photo archives are....

2) Mr. Biemborn was never wronged by Jamie. Instead, he benefitted from preferential treatment. Jamie says that this was because he was responsible for getting Jamie access to the Schultz Loar so that he could make his F-5 mandolins even more Loar like. Again, had this bump been explained to the customers already in the cue then I believe that, like myself, all would have been in favor of having a more Loar like mandolin. Instead, it was handled deceptively and this is what I object to. He did explain to me that he was re-doing his tooling, but never devulged that in addition to the delay this would cause in the delivery of my mandolin that he was moving Mr. Biemborn ahead of me. I approved of the Loar changes 100%, but not the deceptive bump. And having Mr. Biemborn gloating publicly about how great his new Wiens F-5 is was like rubbing salt into the wound.

----------


## Ted Eschliman

A gentle reminder that we have two days to wrap this up, and from then on, this will remain only as Message Board History. Invested parties are urged to make their comments before February 12th.

----------


## Tim Heenan

All I can say is I just looked over at his web page.....clicked on "Artist"........he DOES NOT look a happy man......

Tim

----------


## Andy Fielding

I think we need to stop for a minute and try to consider who Jamie is, based on the work he has achieved.

When people create remarkably fine work like Jamie's, it's because it's tremendously important to them. It's more than a job—it's a representation of who they are, and they aren't willing to do less than their very best. 

These are not people who _like_ the idea of letting others down. Quite the contrary. These are people to whom it's extremely important to _please_ others by creating things of special beauty and quality. Otherwise, they wouldn't have bothered in the first place.

Unfortunately, for these very reasons, people like Jamie are especially vulnerable to stress. Their work requires great concentration, calm,  patience, and confidence—and it doesn't take much stress to affect those things. 

When that happens, their work suffers—and their work is such a part of them, their feelings about who they are suffer too. Eventually, even the _thought_ of working becomes stressful. It's a vicious cycle. What a sad thing to happen to something so wonderful.

We live in a materialistic, celebrity-creating society. When someone like Jamie suddenly finds himself an object of adoration, it can affect their judgment. I don't know if all the money and attention being thrown at Jamie made him think he had developed superpowers and could take on much more than he could, but it sure wouldn't be the first time such a thing happened. It could sure happen to me.

So, here we are—now what? If I could write the rest of this story, here's how it would go:

1. Jamie admits he painted himself into a corner, and that he felt embarrassed and defensive. He apologizes to the people he disappointed and blamed. He does whatever he needs to do to repay the people whose mandolins he was unable to produce.

2. We give Jamie permission to be human. We realize that if we were suddenly confronted with the celebrity and monetary temptations Jamie was, many of us might have found ourselves in a similar fix.

3. Rather than keeping a waiting list and feeling it hanging over his work, Jamie works at his own pace. This allows him to meet his own standards and do the remarkable work he's capable of. As he finishes instruments, he posts them for sale on his website—and each one of these postings becomes an exciting event in the mando community.

4. Jamie starts enjoying his work again, makes more mandolins, and the "wait time" between them becomes shorter.

5. A caring artisan's reputation is saved. Musicians get more beautiful handmade instruments, and the world gets more of the beautiful music that's played on them. Everyone learns a lesson in understanding and forgiveness.

This is a *huge opportunity* all around. If we were willing to see it that way, I do believe we could pull it off—together. After all, if we music people can't be an example for the rest of this big, hurting world, who can be?

----------


## thistle3585

I think a great success to this story would be to see one of Jamie's advocates sit down with him and help him through it.  Even if that means taking on the role of liaison between artist and customer.  Despite how far along this has gotten, I think he can still repair his reputation and it would be unfortunate to lose such a talented builder.

----------


## Nelson Peddycoart

Thank you, guys.  That is where I was trying to take this.  Can we turn this around so that it becomes a win/win?  Maybe not, but piling on criticism after criticism is not going to get us there.

If the the man makes such a fine instrument, it would be a shame to see him stop.

----------


## Nelson Peddycoart

In other words, maybe it is time for a little Andy Griffith problem resolution....

----------


## gtrmaker

I will not quote Andy Fielding's post #501, but want to go on record that I am in full agreement with everything he said. I believe this describes the artist side of Jamie perfectly and I am in full agreement with the hope that Jamie is able to work through this.

I really hope that the final post to this thread is from Jamie.

----------


## deepmountain

(For those who haven't followed this in it's entirety, I'm one of JW's former clients who never received a mandolin and am the Jim on the website link in the OP of this discussion. You can see my former posts for my whole story if you're interested.)

My last comments on this thread are these. I think fair minded and rational people can see what the situation is here. The story has been told with the backing of the site's well trusted owner and others.

The apologists can be seen for what they are, having gotten preferential considerations from Mr. Wiens, or hoping to. 

Lastly I would be interested in hearing from Dan B. 





> This is an invitation to contact me if you are one of Jamie's customers waiting on an order. I will tell you what I know and what I think can be done. 
> 
> I'm not trying to bail him out or excuse what happened in the past, I want to help out wherever possible to bring this to a happy ending.


Dan, what efforts have you made and are there any results to "bring things to a happy ending"? 

My sincere thanks to Scott and Walter for throwing back the drapes and opening the windows and letting the light and fresh air in.

best regards to all,

Jim

----------


## danb

> 1) Business practices aside, he builds an excellent mandolin. As for where the Dudenbostel, Hester, Brentrup etc. photo archives are....
> 
> 2) Mr. Biemborn was never wronged by Jamie.


Mr. Allain, 

We've met, talked, hung out for a day, and had a beer together. I'd still shake your hand and have a chat if you were so inclined, so you needn't use "Mr. Biemborn" (or for that matter, the correct spelling of my name) here. 

In answer to your bullet point there- I do the archive all myself and it's a lot of work. It's a hobby of mine, I do it in my free time. What I've picked out to list so far has been based on what I had good access to information on.  I'm never sure exactly what I'll have time for next week, so nothing is cast in stone.

Jamie's instruments went on because I had a chance to personally photograph 3 of them. Nugget was on there because I had good shots of an A model I took myself. The Loar images started the Gibson collections, and those expanded greatly with Jamie's help along with contributions from many on the board here. I'm working on Gilchrist next, because Mark Daly's information is quite well suited to import into my database now, and I can see achieving that goal in a reasonable amount of time. 

I have great respect for those you've mentioned, along with many others that visit this board. I mean no offense to any of them if I have not listed their instruments in the mandolin archive. In an ideal world I'd add them all, but my time has been scarce lately.

As for "gloating", that was never my intention. It's kind of an unfortunate choice of word really, and I'm sure that's not your intention to accuse me of mailce. Suffice it to say that I was never "maliciously posting images" to the message board to offend anyone.

----------


## gtrmaker

[QUOTE=deepmountain;766630The apologists can be seen for what they are, having gotten preferential considerations from Mr. Wiens, or hoping to. [/QUOTE]

Let's be crystal clear that I am neither an apologist, nor am I "hoping" for preferential treatment from Jamie.

I've not heard from anybody with an unfulfilled mandolin order older than mine (2004) so I certainly would not be receiving preferential treatment if he finally completed my mandolin. 

His business practices have failed him, not his talent as a builder. The former is easily corrected.

----------


## gtrmaker

> Mr. Allain....


My apologies for mispelling your name. I's and E's in a name always screw me up.

Regarding the archive, you do a great job. As for showcasing Jamie's work, I have no problem with that. His work is deserving of it and you were trying to help promote your good friend. As for similar showcasing of other talented builders work, I fully understand the time limitations and commend you for taking on this labor of love.

As for malice, I believe you were very excited at receiving your new mandolin and rightly so. However, I believe that you were in full knowledge that you were receiving this instrument ahead of others such as myself who placed orders before you. I recall vividly that Jamie had to shoosh you in the hotel lobby when you were talking about your in process mandolin and added that "Don has a mandolin on order too". This was not unnoticed and I didn't make an issue of it because I still had hopes that my mandolin would be deservedly forthcoming. And yet here I sit still waiting. How would you have felt if the tables were turned? 

Yes, I am emotional and upset about the course that things have taken with my order. I've never ordered an instrument from another builder and am utterly appalled at the experience.

Yet, I still have hopes that Jamie has an epiphany and everything works out for him and his customers.

As for shaking hands and having a chat, I'd go one further and buy you a beer and like to talk about how nice Jamie's mandolins are.

All the best,
Don

----------


## Cornelius Morris

"The apologists can be seen for what they are, having gotten preferential considerations from Mr. Wiens, or hoping to."

Jim,
This snide name-calling is beneath you.  Like gtrmaker, as a customer of JW I have neither sought, expected, or would accept "preferential considerations". I posted a note way back there somewhere, addressed to your partner Kathryn, in which I said that I neither questioned your experience in all this nor belittled your complaints.  You do not strengthen your standing by trashing those whose experience with JW differs from yours--and who nevertheless still support and encourage you.  I also previously objected to, and though we had clarified, this "apologist" canard.  You made your case well, and deserve the sympathy and wide hearing that you receive.  *But you are in no position, and have no justification, to question my motives (or gtrmaker's for that matter) or invent non-existing scenarios.  Stop it.*

----------


## Kevin Briggs

Andy,

I think your post is well-put as well. It's a good lesson in diplomatic leadership. 

Still, the idea that Wiens is a "celebrity" is a bit overblown. I imagine that many people who decided to contribute to or read this thread sort of knew he was probably a builder before reading about him here. That is the case with me, and I follow mandolins fairly closely. At most, I think he has/had the opportunity to be a successful businessman in a very small, niche market. This made him well known to many people who would or can spend a lot of money on mandolins, but I don't think the tabloids are lining up on his lawn to sneak a picture.

That's all I'll say in this post, since I don't have a dog in this fight. I know what it's like to get ripped off, and I know what it's like to try my best and still come up short. I wish all involved good luck. There are always reasonable solutions within our grasp.

----------


## danb

> As for malice, I believe you were very excited at receiving your new mandolin and rightly so. However, I believe that you were in full knowledge that you were receiving this instrument ahead of others such as myself who placed orders before you. I recall vividly that Jamie had to shoosh you in the hotel lobby when you were talking about your in process mandolin and added that "Don has a mandolin on order too". This was not unnoticed and I didn't make an issue of it because I still had hopes that my mandolin would be deservedly forthcoming. And yet here I sit still waiting. How would you have felt if the tables were turned?
> 
> (...)
> 
> As for shaking hands and having a chat, I'd go one further and buy you a beer and like to talk about how nice Jamie's mandolins are.




I'll hold you to that beer Don! I don't bear you any malice in this whole sordid tale, I hope you don't think I do.

I remember you saying something at that festival about your instrument on order and I got the impression you'd been waiting a while. This was 2004 or 2005 I recall? I don't remember being shushed by Jamie though. When all this was going on I thought I was getting a one-off Loar style mandolin, and hence I might be causing trouble for him if folks already half-completed wanted the "new kind". I knew there were still folks waiting longer than me when I got it, though again I wasn't _conspiring_ for that. To be completely frank, it's not something you generally think of "rattling the windows" on, when a builder tells you your instrument is almost done.. I've worked with a couple other builders and I always assumed a contract with each customer rather than "standing in line".

Of course I understand you'd feel sore about that. If it's any consolation, I'm actually still waiting for a 2003 order from a different builder myself.

----------


## danb

> Dan, what efforts have you made and are there any results to "bring things to a happy ending"?


Hello Jim, this is hopefully my last post on this thread too.

I wanted to see what the other customers thought was going on vs what I'd heard from Jamie. I've spoken on the phone to some folks, traded emails with others, and had a few Skype calls in there as well. I asked Jamie for the status he's on with all of them in the big picture, and encouraged him to send the same info out to folks who are waiting. He mailed me a shot showing 11 in the queue.

Jamie didn't want to post this picture on the board.. it has bad flash effects, colors aren't great, the wide angle lens makes the ones on the outside edges look distorted, etc. Dunno, I don't mind annoying him by posting it on the grounds that it helps the communications.

/ducks

This was the 20th January. Since this was shot he told me a few more bits he's working on. Bodies getting their fine sanding for finish, fingerboards gluing on (one in the picture), fretboard inlays, pegheads etc.

There's quite a bit to see in the photo there, basically to me it simply shows a lot is done and moving towards the folks that are waiting. I know a lot of people have been assuming that there is a lot less in progress, so I hope this answers more questions than it creates anyway.

----------


## Nolan

Wow... that's what 50k - 100,000k worth of mandolins when they get finished?

----------


## MandoCowboy

It’s really amazing to me to see folks try and justify breach of contract due to artist privilege.  I admire those Wiens supporters who continually run that out there time after time.  Your devotion is truly remarkable.  So much so, that the diatribe eventually paints Wiens as the victim,  even if it happens to be of his own demise.  Of course, after the dissertation winds down there’s the single line declaration of “I’m not excusing his bad business practices” as a cookie to the real victims here.  That’ll balance things out.  Keep drinking that Wiens coolaide, you can’t have a good pity party without it.

As a reminder, Wiens is in breach of contract.  He has embezzled the deposits, and thus stolen the hard earned money of honest people.  Smoke and mirrors does not change this fact.  I will not be sitting around on a hope and prayer waiting for some type of personal transformation.  Calling upon some type  of miracle worker to show up on his doorstep to show him the error of his ways.  Oh, wait a minute.  Maybe I do.  Yep, I think that person is called a Mountie (RCMP).  The thought of going to prison is a much more affective motivator than knees on the floor, hands folded together and begging the builder to please do the right thing.

Walter

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Its really amazing to me to see folks try and justify breach of contract due to artist privilege.  I admire those Wiens supporters who continually run that out there time after time.  Your devotion is truly remarkable.  So much so that the diatribe eventually paints Wiens as the victim,  even if it happens to be of his own demise.  Of, course after the dissertation winds down theres the single line declaration of Im not excusing his bad business practices as a cookie to the real victims here.  Thatll balance things out.  Keep drinking that Wiens coolaide, you cant have a good pity party without it.
> 
> As a reminder, Wiens is in breach of contract.  He has embezzled the deposits, and thus stolen the hard earned money of honest people.  Smoke and mirrors does not change this fact.  I will not be sitting around on a hope and prayer waiting for some type of personal transformation.  Calling upon some type  of miracle worker to show up on his doorstep to show him the error of his ways.  Oh, wait a minute.  Maybe I do.  Yep, I think that person is called a Mounty.  The thought of going to prison is a much more affective motivator than knees on the floor, hands folded together and begging the builder to please do the right thing.
> 
> Walter


I have to say that I am totally in Walter's camp on this one. No amount of so-called "artistic" talent can excuse this kind of behaviour, and for Wiens to use it as some kind of justification is just a lot of self serving and pompous nonsense.

----------


## gtrmaker

> No amount of so-called "artistic" talent can excuse this kind of behaviour....


Nobody is excusing his behaviour at all. Walter has apparently reached his limits with Jamie and unless things change, I'm not too far behind him. 

As an instrument builder you have both the artistic and the business aspects of the craft to deal with. Some people do not do well at all with the business side which is the situation with Jamie. And others are great business people but poor artists. Either way, people are not happy. We should commend those that are good at wearing both hats. 

When all is said and done each individual will have to choose for themselves whether they would do business with him. And for me this all depends on his attitude towards dealing with his customers.

----------


## deepmountain

> This snide name-calling is beneath you.  Like gtrmaker, as a customer of JW I have neither sought, expected, or would accept "preferential considerations". I posted a note way back there somewhere, addressed to your partner Kathryn, in which I said that I neither questioned your experience in all this nor belittled your complaints.  You do not strengthen your standing by trashing those whose experience with JW differs from yours--and who nevertheless still support and encourage you.  I also previously objected to, and though we had clarified, this "apologist" canard.  You made your case well, and deserve the sympathy and wide hearing that you receive.  *But you are in no position, and have no justification, to question my motives (or gtrmaker's for that matter) or invent non-existing scenarios.  Stop it.*


Cornelius,
I'm sorry that you took my comment personally; I was not specifically addressing you, but some earlier defenders and "excuse-makers" of JW, and in retrospect  it was not so skillful and I probably should have just left it out. However, in my defense, I don't really see any "name calling" here...and "trashing" is a bit strong. That there are and have been "apologists" or "defenders" of JW on this thread can't be denied. My tone could be interpreted as "snide" but this has been a long, intense and draining process to stay with and if for once I slip into impatience with those who feel compelled to defend Jamie, then I think I may be granted this one lapse of being less than civil. 

And please remember, I began this ordeal at the beginning of '04, (don't know if that beats gtrmaker) and finally chose to no longer be the recipient of abusive and deceptive practices and bailed out...and clearly am lucky to have gotten as much of my money back that I did. Had I chosen to hang in there I'd still be waiting like the rest of you. However, hopefully because of this thread and the efforts of myself and Walt and the resulting impetus it may afford JW, maybe those of you still waiting will get your instruments after all. 

All I've gotten out of it is a bad taste in my mouth which ended up costing me $500 for the "pleasure". 

peace,

Jim

----------


## hank

At what point was that old coyote trying to sell many of us a Weins build slot transformed into The Watchdog?

----------


## MandoCowboy

> At what point was that old coyote trying to sell many of us a Weins build slot transformed into The Watchdog?


Hi Hank,

When no other viable option presented itself.

Walter

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Nobody is excusing his behaviour at all. Walter has apparently reached his limits with Jamie and unless things change, I'm not too far behind him. 
> 
> As an instrument builder you have both the artistic and the business aspects of the craft to deal with. Some people do not do well at all with the business side which is the situation with Jamie. And others are great business people but poor artists. Either way, people are not happy. We should commend those that are good at wearing both hats. 
> 
> When all is said and done each individual will have to choose for themselves whether they would do business with him. And for me this all depends on his attitude towards dealing with his customers.


I felt that Wiens used it to justify his behaviour. I understand your post and don't feel that my comment is at all at odds with your post.

----------


## danb

> I was not specifically addressing you, but some earlier defenders and "excuse-makers" of JW


By that logic you could be called an "attacker", which would be just as unfair! Cornelius had his own experience to relate, and shouldn't be tagged as an excuse-maker just because his experience was different from yours.

I don't see this all in black & white either. In the real world, people aren't divided into piles of just saints and demons, but rather fall somewhere in-between.

----------


## Glassweb

I don't see this all in black & white either. In the real world, people aren't divided into piles of just saints and demons, but rather fall somewhere in-between. [Dan Beimborn - QUOTE]

Helas...

----------


## MandoCowboy

> All I can say is I just looked over at his web page.....clicked on "Artist"........he DOES NOT look a happy man......
> 
> Tim


This one?

<copy protected picture removed from post by Moderator>

----------


## Kirk Albrecht

While I agree with the complaints about the real issues regarding Jamie's business practices (as I have noted in my previous posts in this thread), making comments about his website picture really should have no place in this discussion.  Let's treat him like a real person, and deal with the issues.

----------


## MandoCowboy

> Jamie didn't want to post this picture on the board.. 
> This was the 20th January. 
> There's quite a bit to see in the photo there, basically to me it simply shows a lot is done and moving towards the folks that are waiting. I know a lot of people have been assuming that there is a lot less in progress, so I hope this answers more questions than it creates anyway.


In that picture I count what, 11 or 12 unfinished mandos?  That's an awful lot of spent deposit money sitting there, on both sides.

Something to consider.  Will any of those mandos appear on the black market sold out from under a waiting list customer?

Seems like Wiens has done this before as I quote gtrmaker (a current long time wait list client of Wiens) from a previous post.

_"Am I happy that a mandolin which supposedly was built for me he sold out from underneath me without ever consulting me? NO!"_

After all, it is the new Wiens business plan to offer to sell mandos to those who paid $250 to be on his list.

I believe gtrmaker has already made mention of Wiens approaching him for additional funds due to lack of revenue because of this thread.  Here's his quote: 

_"I received a recent request from him for more money because this public discussion has hurt him financially and forced him to seek other means to support himself which means that he is not concentrating on the mandolins he owes people."_

There seems to be a lot of potential temptation there.  I'd be watching Wiens very closely on this.

Walter

----------


## Mike Bunting

Jeez, he must have really been burning the midnight oil in the last month!

----------


## Ted Eschliman

Final reminder that we have less than one day to wrap this up, and from then on, the topic of Jamie Wiens and his questionable business practices will remain only as Message Board History. Invested parties are urged to complete their comments before February 12th, 6:00 AM CST.

Please note that a Google Search currently yields the thread as its 4th listing. No need to drag this out any longer after tomorrow; future attempts to discuss this topic will be locked down.

----------


## jimbob

Unfortunate deal, for sure....bet his waiting list isn't near as long now !

----------


## Tim Heenan

> This one?
> 
> <copy protected picture removed from post by Moderator>


pic was removed.... but he does not have the look of a man who is loving what he's doing....................on the contrary......

Tim

----------


## Kirk Albrecht

This talk of Jamie's website picture is silly and beneath the dignity of this forum!  Have any of you ever seen Beethoven's famous portrait?  Talk about intense!  It is just not fair to draw any conclusions about someone, their personality, their disposition, or how much they "enjoy" what they are doing from a web photo.

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

I sort of understand that people that are involved as a customer etc. may feel the need to vent angry feelings by expressing them. I also understand that Scott holds the thread open because of the publicity that Jamie Wiens gained as a builder because of Dan´s personal built-experience (not as a public relations campaign; If you look at the built-thread you will see in one post that Dan also mentioned that he forwarded money to Jamie Wiens...).

What I neither understand nor approve is the unnecessary public flogging that takes place here (Walter Josey´s recent posts included). I detest the numerous inflamatory remarks that lead nowhere and that would lead to a thread shutdown in minutes had this topic here not been exeptionally complex.

My hat is off to folks like gitrmaker who are in the position of a wronged party and judge the situation clearminded without making derogatory remarks about people´s personality etc.

----------


## MandoCowboy

> I sort of understand that people that are involved as a customer etc. may feel the need to vent angry feelings by expressing them. 
> 
> What I neither understand nor approve is the unnecessary public flogging that takes place here (Walter Josey´s recent posts included).


GRP,

It is a necessary public flogging.  

Wiens was thrusted into builder stardom by the huge amounts of public praise given to him by a very respected poster on the Cafe.  After what I and others have gone through with Wiens, it is self evident that the rise to fame was undeserved, and the accolades heaped upon him was misplaced.  There's no way on GGE I would have lent my name to help a builder attain equal status with Loar fame with the traits that have now been exposed.  It has led to a huge amount of grief over many many years for a number of unfortunate people.  I would be embarrassed and ashamed to have misplaced my support that created the legend and myth as was done for Wiens.

Wiens misplaced trust from many who have given him so much, both in monetary value and in personal support.  He has in many instances violated every reasonable aspect one would hope to experience from a good builder, and validated what one can expect from a bad one.

Though messy and uncomfortable, public floggings have a way of unraveling untruths.

Walter

----------


## kudzugypsy

i think mandocowboy hit on a theory i had some years ago when the mando renaissance began - 

i've been a member of the cafe for many years and i noticed the sudden hype to legend status that people were pushing on some of the up and coming builders - EVERYONE was looking for the next Nugget, Gilchrist, Loar, etc and all of a sudden guys who had only made 4-5 mandos that happened to get in the right hands became heir to that throne by hype alone (- this isnt just mandos, its all over every forum where something is hyped and praised - i went thru this SAME kind of ordeal with Alan Hamel's "legendary" telecaster pickups - which he took the money by the bushel and vanished).

i think these young builders had no idea how much harder it was to earn the reputation over many many years instead of getting it over a 6 month period. the cafe archives are full of this years hot maker - they are hot for a year as their list fills up, then the classified are full of them as they get dumped for the next big thing - and its not really their fault - its the people trying to get in on the list before they hit the big time - mando speculation in other words. i know MANY people who did this during the mando boom - they were on multiple lists hoping that one would be the next Gil and they could cash in.

i just say all this to keep it in your mind as you read the raving reviews of someone who has only finished his 6th mandolin - its A LOT different than having a list full of deposits and 20+ people panting to get their mando finished. Weins isnt the only one - there are other well know builders in the same boat.

the problem is taking deposits - sometimes substantial sums to get on the list when the builder knows that it will be 3+ years out til they even begin this mando. i got on Gilchrists "closed" list and it cost me zero - i understood it would be 4 years before he even got to mine - when he contacted me 4 years later for 1/2 deposit, it was understood i would have the mando in 6 months and it was right on time. you learn this after building a few hundred mandolins - you know your output speed.

----------


## papa willie

Very insightful, kudzugypsy.

----------


## Keith Erickson

> Very insightful, kudzugypsy.


Ditto.....

When I first looked at a custom build, I took the time to research.  I contacted the builders, their customers and read the on line reviews.  I have to say, in ever case, the feedback that I recieved back was all positive.  

In the end, I kept on coming back to one builder.  Nothing against the other builders, but I chose to take my custom build experience in a direction that I'm completely comfortable with.  

_With that being said, the key to my decision was customer feedback._

When Jamie Wiens first came on the scene, I read the reviews however I never did entertain the thought of a Wiens mandolin because it was not the direction I wanted to go.  *BUT* if I did, I would have made every effort to contact customers.

Jim & Walt,

My post is not meant to be a swipe against either of you.  What truly happened to you and others is tragic and the story needed to be told.  It's so painful to have your faith shattered when look forward to something so special as a custom made mandolin.  The stories were told and they are truly heartbreaking.

I believe we all have learned a terrible lesson through your eyes.  I just pray that there is resolution for all *involved* parties.

Best regards,

----------


## J.Albert

"What I neither understand nor approve is the unnecessary public flogging that takes place here (Walter Josey´s recent posts included). I detest the numerous inflamatory remarks that lead nowhere and that would lead to a thread shutdown in minutes had this topic here not been exeptionally complex"

I've followed this thread from early on.

I have no problems with fur, feathers, flesh and bones flying around now and then.

If they didn't - and if this (as the leading mandolin site on the web) became a place where only good things could be said and only praise could be rendered - perhaps it might have to be renamed "the mandomilquetoastcafe.com".

Just teasin', Scott...  :Smile: 

- John

----------


## joshua collum

Jamie, I have, like most of us here,admired your mandolins... What I don't understand is why you won't just refund Walter and both of you walk away from this...it looks like you have several mandolins in the works and many customers who won't "pester" you about it. Why not just end this professionally and move on? ....I remember hearing this as a kid..." Pride comes before destruction and a haughty spirit before the fall"....... Why not just make this right and move on? I ain't preaching, but this seems pretty cut and dry... I hope it all works out for everyone.

----------


## Mteresko

As an owner of one of Jamie's mandos, I am not completely objective. Let me state first that it is a great instrument in every regard, and after close to 6 years, the top is in perfect condition and shows no sign of caving in. By the way, where does one come up with the statistic that 10% of his tops have failed? I can sympathize with both sides of this train wreck of a situation, and understand that Jamie has made some extremely serious errors in dealing with his clients. However, this thread has at times seemed like a lynch mob populated by a lot of people with no real stake in the disagreement. I mean, commenting on his demeanor in a website photo is a cheap shot and completely irrelevant. 

I hope that some good comes from all of this, and that Jamie continues to build, and that those waiting for mandos receive them soon, but it is definitely time to shut this thing down.

----------


## troika

3...2.....1.......

----------


## Ted Eschliman

As promised four days ago, we are locking the thread in an attempt to rein in superfluous public discussion on the matter of Jamie Wiens' business contested practices. It is our sincere wish that he and his customers come to a quick resolution and he can return to building the craft he was lauded for early in his career by many of the rest of the Cafe community.

For this to happen will take a time-tested track record, one impossible to establish short term. On behalf of the Moderators, we now consider the subject taboo for the forum until such recuperative actions have been documented, and customers concerns are resolved. We refuse to be judge and jury on this, so don't interpret this action as an endorsement or indictment. Any return to this matter will include a link reference to this thread and result in a swift thread lockdown.

We thank all non-involved parties for their patience in letting all 22 pages of dialogue regarding these unpleasant incidents run its final course.

----------

