# Music by Genre > Jazz/Blues Variants, Bossa, Choro, Klezmer >  ?s on arpeggios for blues/jazz improv.

## DMC

I've been working really hard on my major and minor scales (using the FFCP method) and on my major and minor arpeggios for the last year. My tone, knowledge of the fingerboard and the strength and dexterity of my pinkie has improved IMMEASURABLY. It's a great system - thanks Ted. #I've even begun to improvise over backing tracks - just simple 12-bar blues progressions and ii V 1 changes. I thought it would take my years even to get to this stage but here I am and it is so exciting....... sorry I'm rambling. My questions:

Say we have a 12 -bar blues in G. G7 C7 and D7. Each of these chords is 1 3 5 b7. Correct? I know from my # #G blues scale that it's often appropriate to play a flattened third (Bb) against the G7 chord and sometimes a flattened fifth (Db). But it also seems appropriate to my ears to play a flattened third against the IV and V chords too. Is this often done? Effectively I'm playing #m7 arpeggios over 7th chords. 

Also if i add the fourth note of the corresponding scale to my m7 arpeggio we have the minor pentatonic scale, correct? And if we add to that the flattened fifth we get the corresponding blues scale? So is it acceptable (or maybe effective is a better word) to play either (or both) of these scales over the corresponding chord be that the I, IV or V chord? Not sure if I've made myself clear and I've loads more questions but that will do for now...... : ) Thanks!

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## Ted Eschliman

Thanks for the kind words, David.
I hope others that more fluent with the blues than me will weigh in here, but let me just offer this concept to stretch your thinking... 
It's great that you're drilling the "building blocks" of improvisation, including arpeggios and scales. You've discovered you need a mixture of both, as well as contrary motion to create fresh, ear-pleasing melodies. The blues scales are another element of this with the signature b3, b5, and b7, but don't ignore "function" and the way these intervals play off each other.
You may have heard of "guide tones" (3rd & 7th) and "approach notes" (called "gravity" notes in my materials), and I think if you can inject this approach to your improvisation, it will be all that much more invigorating. In other words, when you think the b3rd scale degree (Bb in G), the major 3 (B natural) should not be far away, or right after. When you think of the b5 (Db), the regular (Perfect) 5 should not be far away. The 4th (C nat) also likes to lead to the 3rd (B). You want to think how these notes "resolve" to the next. (It's all about aural "expectation...")
Now, to answer your question, I think when you hit the IV chord (C7 in the key of G), at the risk of oversimplification, you do want to use notes out of the C Blues scale. But, by the same token, in your melodies, you want your Eb to lead to E and all the other "blue" notes to weave in and out of resolution.
Another tasty trick is the tri-tone slide. Play the "guide tones" of the G7, (B & F), you only have to back the pair down one fret for the C7 (Bb & E). You could practically do a whole chorus of just those four notes (add F# & C for the D7 chord of course). Now , play around them by adding the notes that come before & after.
In the big picture, keep in mind there are really no "rules," just expectations. Your own ears are the final judge; trust them.

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## ira

whew- tired just reading all of that-question and answer... understood some...wow!

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## DMC

Ted, thanks for the reply and the advice. So to render my use of the blue notes more effective I shouldn't neglect their natural partners from the major scale? In terms of 'gravity' do the flattened (blue) notes all gravitate up a semi-tone? I've actually been incorporating your gravity note exercises into my scale practice. But it seems I forgot the very point of the exercise!! I wasn't mindful of the gravity notes when improvising! That should really help. Thanks.

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## Seth Rosen

[QUOTE] blues scale that it's often appropriate to play a flattened third (Bb) against the G7 chord and sometimes a flattened fifth (Db). But it also seems appropriate to my ears to play a flattened third against the IV and V chords too. Is this often done? Effectively I'm playing #m7 arpeggios over 7th chords.[QUOTE]


Good question. #Great answer by Ted, but let add a few thoughts that may help.

Playing the "blues scale" with a flat 3rd (Bb in G), means using that scale over ALL the changes. #Thus the Bb works because it is the b7 over a C7 chord and and the #5 over D7 (see the 12 bar blues lesson on this site for an explanation of why the #5 works). #

You couldn't consistently use min 3rd chord tones over dominant 7th chord without either: changing the feel to minor, or hitting the minor third while someone was playing the major 3rd in the same octave...this is usually not a good thing 

You can use the minor third (or for that matter any note you like), but you can't think of it as a "chord tone" in a dominant 7th feel blues..ie it's not a note that you would resolve to.

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## DMC

Okay. I understand now . So improvising over a typical 12-bar blues progression in G, the blues scale can be used over all three chords. If I combine this with the C7 and D7 arpeggios and scales and being mindful of the pull of the gravity notes I should start to get somewhere. Thanks!

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## arbarnhart

I am confused. While arpeggios blur the line between rhythm and melody/lead a bit, I think of them as a component of rhythm. My mando experience is limited and while I have much more on the guitar, I was never really all that good, so take anything I have to say with a grain of salt. 

When picking out a melody, either trying to find one from a song or trying to make one up, I always start with a scale from the root chord - the key. I usually use either the major or blues scale, whichever seemed to fit better (most notes I was looking for found there). But a lot of melodies (particularly blues) contain notes that appear to have no business being played from a music theory perspective (I am admittedly pretty weak here; I know some, but would likely fail a high school band class exam). 

I also drill scales some (and I use the FFCP - another big THANK YOU to Ted), but I work hardest on getting my fingers to know phrases relative to where I am on the fret board. Feel free to blast the simpleton, but I think you can over engineer your improvisations if you go much further than basic scales before letting the ear, hands and heart take over.

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## Ted Eschliman

> I think you can over engineer your improvisations if you go much further than basic scales before letting the ear, hands and heart take over.


A big "Amen" to that, _especially_ in the Blues, a genre noted much more for _heart_ than head.
If anything Seth says conflicts with my advice, I would wholeheartedly defer to his better judgement. As a disclaimer, I come from a more cerebral school of alternate Jazz Blues changes, esoteric detours known to drive the traditional Blues purists batty.

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## groveland

You know, I posted my two cents here yesterday, but after reading it over, I deleted it. I was sure you all would have thought I was a lunatic.

But one thing I want to post from that deleted dissertation is this: There is simply not enough of this kind of theory discussion on the message board! (IMHO)

One other thing - On very careful inspection of both Seth's and Ted's comments, I see no contradiction whatsoever. I figured the gist of Seth's point was that with a 7 chord as the I chord you can solo a major or minor third (#9), but a m7 as the I chord you can only solo a minor third. The #9 will always resolve up. Is that inconsistent with what Ted was describing?

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## jmcgann

Dedicated to Groveland, who likes the theory idea, and to all who may get something from it:

1) You can play the blues scale of the home base key (I chord) over all the chords

2) You can arpeggiate each chord individually with or without the home base blues scale

3) You can play the blues scale from the root of each individual chord

4) You can extend the progression away from just I IV V a la Charlie Parker- say in the key of C:

C7/F7 F#07/ C7 /Gm7 C7
F7/ F#o7/ C7/ A7
D7/G7/ C7 A7/D7 G7

Now, you can just blow the blues scale across those changes and sound like a genius, too...or you can try lines that use some other notes. Typically. Bird would use the D harmonic minor scale over the A7 (but avoiding the D note as it clashes with the chord), giving you an altered scale:

A Bb C# D E F G A #See how AC#EG are nested in there? There's your chord tones. The in-between notes gove you the color (or: 1 b9 3 4 5 b6 b7). (Of course, harmonic minor from the root is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7).

Try this melody over the C starting on your low G string:

G A B D C D E G/

Over the A7:

Bb A G F E D C# Bb

over the D7 it's G harmonic minor:

A Bb C D Eb F# G A

Over the G7 it's C harmonic minor:

B (descend) Ab G F Eb D C B

and resolve to C.

Viola, instant altered scales- the 5th mode of the harmonic minor. Even if you don't start on the 5th degree...I would just avoid the root of the parent harmonic minor. No problem, since we can all play every scale and mode from any degree, right?  

Brought to you free of charge by Entertain And Amaze Yourself With Fairly Simple Concepts, Inc. 

Listen to Charlie Parker play the blues, man. It's deep and you can learn a lot. Plus, he was happening the same time as Bill Monroe, so IT'S OK. # "Parker's Mood" is a pretty good place to start...he recorded about 150 blues and 150 tunes based on "I Got Rhythm", "they" say if you can play those two, you can play jazz.

PS- In the long run IT'S ALL MELODY!

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## groveland

So you make the 7 chords the V7 of a harmonic minor scale. Got a 7 chord? Play harmonic minor starting a fourth above the root of the chord.

This usage of 5th mode harmonic minor over 7 chords would be limited to II/V movements, like the C7/*A7 D7/G7/*C7 *A7/D7 G7* movement above, right?

And once again, I've stolen a thread! #Sorry DMC! Maybe someone else will benefit as much as I do...

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## jmcgann

> So you make the 7 chords the V7 of a harmonic minor scale. Got a 7 chord? Play harmonic minor starting a fourth above the root of the chord.


Yeah, but I'd avoid STARTING on the root of the scale as I said above- not a good chord/melody relationship on a strong beat. Good passing note, though.




> This usage of 5th mode harmonic minor over 7 chords would be limited to II/V movements, like the C7/*A7 D7/G7/*C7 *A7/D7 G7* movement above, right?


No, you can use it on "non V7 function" dom 7 chords too...

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## arbarnhart

> Originally Posted by  (arbarnhart @ July 06 2005, 08:04)
> 
> I think you can over engineer your improvisations if you go much further than basic scales before letting the ear, hands and heart take over.
> 
> 
> A big "Amen" to that, _especially_ in the Blues, a genre noted much more for _heart_ than head.


I have often been accused of being soft in both places. # #

The funny thing is that you can easily work in both directions. You can use theory to come up with a chord progression and melody that will likely sound pretty good or you can noodle around and find a melody that sounds pleasing to your ear and when you map the notes to the "best fit" key and scale (usually the one you were noodling in and that chorsd fit well), the notes that don't map will probably map to one fo the many aforementioned schools of thought. There's only 12 tones; 7 are in the major scale and it's pretty easy to find an excuse to use one or more of the other five...

Keep in mind that I am primarily an acoustic blues player and not a particularly good one.

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## jmcgann

Theory is just a description and way to organize sound in a REPEATABLE fashion, so you have a consistent organization of sound to draw from. The heart/soul part is how you USE and FEEL that sound. You can paint by the numbers 'til you are blue in the face, it ain't gonna resonate without YOU behind it.

On the other side, most people who say "I just play from the heart" as a way to avoid learning ain't kidding nobody. They still gotta HEAR the same as Theory Boy does. Wes Montgomery is a good example of a guy who didn't know theory in terms of what to call what chord or what number what note was- but he sure as hell had a consistent way of HEARING very sophisticated concepts, and it wasn't "hit and miss"- he was HAPPENING, always!

Sometimes, improvisation is about hearing your way out of a paper bag  

Sonny Boy, Buddy Guy, Charlie Parker, Charles Mingus, Louis Armstrong, Howard Armstrong, Wes Montgomery, BB King, Bill Monroe, and on and on- they ALL have HEART and SOUL along with incredible deep blues feeling AND an INTUITIVE grasp on the theory side of things...I say use everything you can to make your relationship to music deeper and better. WTF, it's a short spin around the block!!!!

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## arbarnhart

> On the other side, most people who say "I just play from the heart" as a way to avoid learning ain't kidding nobody.


Dang! I was hoping I had at least a couple of people fooled. # #

Sometimes it's not so much evasion of learning as feeling overwhelmed by what I have learned but can't seem to dissiminate and apply properly. My first instrument (which I still play) is the giant key of C cheat sheet commonly known as the piano. I think part of my problem with advanced theory is that my first introduction to it was hard wired to specific note patterns used to play music I didn't particularly care for at the time. One thing I am trying to do differently than my parents is just let the kids play whatever instrument and genre they want, whether it makes me cringe or not. So I am going from being forced to play music I didn't like to paying instructors to teach my kids to play music I don't like (but they do). I like acoustic blues and sometimes I like to play it without thinking very hard...

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## groveland

> Yeah, but I'd avoid STARTING on the root of the scale as I said above- not a good chord/melody relationship on a strong beat. Good passing note, though.


Yes, we'd want a scale mode based on the chord's root.




> the giant key of C cheat sheet commonly known as the piano


I'm a little jealous here, I could never see piano as a cheat sheet! In fact, I always thought of the keyboard as a symptom of illogical and historical baggage: Black keys? #White keys? Practicing 12 different configurations of any given structure? #Complex - Better than bagpipes, but transpositionally-challenged! Someone get me a mandolin, the Instrument of the Future!

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## arbarnhart

Well, the piano is a cheat sheet for the key of C only. Everything else was a painful exercise in rote memorization. Variants of C other than CMaj were also memorized, but it was just the exceptions (like this black key gets used and that white key doesn't). But notation is also keyed to C with sharps and flats used as shims to adapt C to other keys.

I agree that the mando makes more sense.

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## jmcgann

At least we can use the same fingerings in different keys- that's a leg up!

All the theory stuff I wrote is toward the jazz side of blues; Country/Delta/Chicago blues styles are traditionally a bit more of the 3 chord variety, except when you check out Blind Blake's very funky ragtime blues stuff- lotsa chords there! Anyway, you can make great, expressive, incredible music without extended chord progressions- I just wanted to present a few ideas used by the masters in the 1940's and still mighty applicable today...

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## Jeff Hoelter

Great thread - lots of great ideas. One I wanted to float out there for DMC ...

In working with Ted's exercises and some of the other building blocks, you're really starting from the ground up, building your own thing. What might be useful for you is to deconstruct something already done. Like what John said, but maybe not such an advanced example (theory-wise). Find a BB King or Albert King CD (or your favorite blues player), and listen through til you hear a solo you like. Learn that one by heart and then deconstruct it analytically, seeing what notes were chosen over what chords. That should give you some concrete ideas about how some of the masters did it, and also some good blues licks! 

Jeff

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## mandocrucian

> 3) You can play the blues scale from the root of each individual chord


(For clarification, let's say we're in the key of G)

That's fine for the V7 (D7)chord (D blues scale), but it's not so clear cut for the IV &copy; chord. If you hang on the IV for an extended period, you can ease from &copy; major pentatonic into the &copy; blues scale (built on the IV), but it can sound quite awkward if you somewhat randomly go to it. It can work, but it isn't an automatic sure-fire option such as the I (G) blues scale.

Niles H.

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>*"Blues & Bluegrass Mandolin"* Workshop w/Niles Hokkanen
Aug 5-7, 2005
Round Hill Arts Center, Round Hill, VA
hhanes@roundhillarts.org # 
(540)338-5050</span>

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## groveland

jeffh - I think that's a great idea about reverse-engineering. My experience: I first learned from Clapton/Cream LPs running at 16rpm, 8 hours a day. That tuned my ear, taught me the vocabulary, and got me up and running quickly. Had I insisted on first mastering lessons by-the-book, I'm sure I never would have gotten around to actually playing! This is particularly true of the blues, improvisational, 'from the heart', a genre not well supported by traditional theory.

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## jmcgann

> That's fine for the V7 (D7)chord (D blues scale), but it's not so clear cut for the IV © chord. If you hang on the IV for an extended period, you can ease from © major pentatonic into the © blues scale (built on the IV), but it can sound quite awkward if you somewhat randomly go to it. It can work, but it isn't an automatic sure-fire option such as the I (G) blues scale.


As a paint-by-numbers approach, it sure ain't sure-fire, but as I said above, it's all MELODY and if you hear Eb Gb G Bb on the C7, why the hell not...I happen to like the old lydian b7 sound (C D E F# G A Bb) a lot on the C7 IV cjord along with blues notes intermingled, but again and as always- it's down to:

1) What you want to get across
2) Get it across with conviction 

If you don't HEAR it and feel it,it may possibly be worth considering that it may possibly be BS...

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## mandocrucian

It's possible to use just about _anything_ and have it make sense if you know what you are doing and present it "right" and resolve it so the line maintains it's own internal logic and makes some sort of overall sonic sense. Use bizarre scales or chords, play in a key half-step off, decide that bar three is going to be the new bar-1 of the progression, play a quarter-tone sharp, go polyrhythmic, use _noises_ and non-pitched or multi-pitched sounds and sound effects, etc.....

And really knowing what you are doing usually means that you probably aren't even thinking about theory or scales or whatever linguistic terminolgy is used for descriptive/anayltical purposese; it's just the sounds. If you are thinking _terminolgy_, part of your focus is not really on _hearing_ what you are playing.

Seems to me, that in discussions of this nature, the theory/terminology is a tool used to train a player to begin hearing those particular sets and subsets of pitch combinations. So a list of possible options is, in a way, a crude _paint-by-numbers_ approach. If you are thinking _"math"_, the sound and hearing is the very last thing in the flow chart, not the source. "These _numbers_ (or equations) are supposed to work, so I'll try them out, and hear how things work out (or not)."

My comments re: blues scale built on the IV were a *footnote to the effect that: this particular option may give mixed results until one acquires some trial and error experience with it. Of course, if the person is _already hearing_ it, it's really beside the point (even if they don't know the descriptive term for what they're hearing/playing). 




> but again and as always - it's down to:
> 1) What you want to get across
> 2) Get it across with conviction


No argument there; that describes high level playing. Doesn't really give you map of how to become the high level player though.

NH

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## DMC

This thread has really taken off. Lots to think about here. About the 5th mode of the harmonic minor scale - is this what is commonly referred to as the 'minor jazz scale' #?

This is my take on the whole music theory thing. I don't think learning scales and arpeggios will enable me to play the blues (or jazz for that matter). I'm already able to play the blues - in my head. I grew up listening to my dad playing blues guitar (acoustic finger-style and electric) #and I've listened to lots of players over the years from Robert Johnson to Missippi John Hurt, B.B.King to SRV. I love the blues. I can put on blues backing tracks and 'sing' great solos over them in my head. My aim is to be able to get my fingers to express the ideas in my head. I've tried noodling around and gotten somewhere. But by learning the theory side of #things I have found that I am getting much better at this much quicker than before. What can I say but it works for me. The theory is like training wheels - a means to an end : to be able to play what's in my head. I have also listened to lots of gypsy jazz over the past few years and I find now that I have a gypsy vocabulary in my head too. Again I think learning the relevant theory will enable me to express these ideas more readily #on my mandolin.

The corollary of this - I've never really listened to much bebop. No real reason but there's only so many hours in a day....... #I don't think any amount of theory and technical exercises would enable me to play bebop. It's not in my head. I don't understand the music on an aural and emotional level yet. Until I listen to it and absorb it and internalise it I won't be able to play it no matter what.

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## groveland

> is this what is commonly referred to as the 'minor jazz scale' ?


What you're referring to as the 'minor jazz scale' would be the Melodic Minor scale, a.k.a. Ascending Melodic Minor in classical theory. This is often referred-to as "Jazz Minor". It has a powerful function in jazz, but it is not the 5th mode of Harmonic Minor.

To your other point - I was studying under a well-credentialed jazz player here in town. One (scary and intimidating) point he drove home was, the real jazz players out there who really know their stuff will recognize immediately if you don't know what you're doing. You can't really fake it. It is a language, they all know the language, and you are supposed to be speaking it. Are you yelling gibberish? Or are you saying something meaningful with an economy of words? Do you like to just use big words to hear yourself talk? Those that speak the language and are familiar with the topics of conversation will have you pegged quickly.

Surely to some degree this is true. We have to learn the language and the folklore to communicate well.

On the other hand, language is way more than spelling and grammar rules, and you learn it mostly by hearing. Theory is a good thing, but certainly not everything.

So I think you need equal parts. Eh?

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## Ted Eschliman

Okay for those who aren't familiar with this, let's blow our mind together....

Here is something called the "Altered Scale" (indulge me, if this if familiar terrain...).

(Treble Clef)

If you start on the 2nd note *(Eb)* and extended it up a full octave, you would have a Eb Melodic minor scale. 

Start it on the F5th note* (Ab)* and extend it up a full octave, you get John's "Lydian b7" (a personal favorite scale of mine, as well; think major scale with raised 4th and lowered 7th).

Three scales in one. Run the routine  here and you'll know it in all 12 keys, but only finger it four (FFcP) ways. This is actually a cleaner, printable copy here:  Bebop Mandology. This is terrific flavor for almost any V7 chord.

Jazz really ain't that hard sometimes...

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## jaco

I remember when I was jamming (on stage) with a Really Good piano player who asked "can you play the blues?". Oh sure (I'm thinking I, IV, V) no problem. He then proceded into a Charlie Parker type progression (same as JM outlined earlier) at a Fast tempo. I was totally lost in about two seconds. I also looked very foolish (at least in my mind). I have since learned these progressions and study Charlie Parker religiously. I look at theory and musical knowledge similar to a painter who maybe wants to limit his/her painting with a few colors. The advantage is to know all the colors and have them at your disposal when the situation arises. (By the way John I was at Berklee 73-76. Charlie's pizza kept us alive in those days) Mike

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