# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  2007 ibma awards - analysis

## Ted Lehmann

I've just posted my analysis of last night's IBMA Awards on my blog. I'll be interested to read your responses to this very important evening in bluegrass music and to my take on it. - Ted

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## Bill Van Liere

I am happy for the Infamous Stringdusters

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## Jonathan James

I'm bummed that Tony Williamson, Vassar, Tony Rice, Scott Vestal didn't win "Best Recorded Event" for the concert at Randy Wood's concert house in GA. Great project and Vassar's last...

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## Mandomax

it was at Randy Wood's- Wayne lives in VA

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## AlanN

Well, great to see Tony T get banjo, and yes to Ted's opine about Alan Bibey.

For those at the event, how is it?

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## Russ Jordan

In regards to Ted's blog: MIchael Cleveland and Flamekeeper are still together, though Audie Blaylock has left.

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## lgc

I guess my question is is, when did Sam Bush play bluegrass this year?

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## Don Grieser

I lost interest in the IBMA awards during the O Brother time. When Mike Compton didn't win that year, I decided the IBMA awards weren't worth paying attention to. O Brother was only responsible for a huge rebirth of interest in bluegrass and string music. So they gave it to someone else that year. Who won this year? Who cares?

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## lgc

If Monroe came out today would he even be on the radar of the IBMA? Probably not. Ironic? Yes.

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## Brady Smith

> I guess my question is is, when did Sam Bush play bluegrass this year?


Exactly...

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## Keith Wallen

I guess you all didn't hear Sam's cd this year. While not all bluegrass there were two songs on there that are definitely bluegrass and nothing else which is more than years past. And probably why he didn't win much the last 5 - 8 years or at least that's why I thought he didn't win those years. 

Sam is my favorite player so I am a little biased however I do agree that the awards should be spread around a little more.

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## Keith Wallen

Also aren't we/bluegrass getting big enough to have more categories such as traditional and progressive although that is a little hard to define some times. Just look at the debates here.

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## 45ACP-GDLF5

> I guess my question is is, when did Sam #Bush play bluegrass this year?


Sam has been playing Bluegrass since about 1971 when he was in the band Bluegrass Alliance. He's just not played Bluegrass exclusively. Duh!! When he was in NGR and every band since then, he has always recorded at least 1 or 2 Monroe songs per album/CD.

I just seen him last week at WCU and he played about 4 or 5 Classic Bluegrass tunes. I've got his set-list from that night to prove it.


I guess my question is, when are you gonna wake up and smell the river? cause The River's Gonna Run!!!

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## 45ACP-GDLF5

> If Monroe came out today would he even be on the radar of the IBMA? #Probably not. #Ironic? #Yes.


When the IBMA was formed in 1989, and held their first awards show in 1990, the only award they ever bestowed on Mr. Monroe, was his induction into the Bluegrass Hall of Honor. Up until his death in 1996, he never received another award from the IBMA. 

In his biography, Can't You Hear Me Callin' he mentions that he never wanted HIS music to be turned into a competition between artists and musicians.

One note of interest though: when Ronnie McCoury won his first of 8 awards as Mandolin Player of the Year in 1993, upon receiving the award, he immediately walked off the stage into the audience and gave the award to Bill Monroe!!!

Very honorable and impressive, to say the least!!!

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## 45ACP-GDLF5

> Well, great to see Tony T get banjo, and yes to Ted's opine about Alan Bibey.
> 
> For those at the event, how is it?


Alan Bibey won this year's SPBGMA Award for Mandolin Player of the Year. They kinda pick up where the IBMA leaves off.

There a LOT of mandolin players that should already have won Mandolin Player of the Year. 

Bill Monroe
Jesse McReynolds
Bobby Osborne
Doyle Lawson
Hershel Sizemore
John Duffey
David Grisman
Jethro Burns
Frank Wakefield
Mike Compton
Danny Roberts
Dempsey Young
Red Rector
Roland White....in no particular order, except for the Father of Bluegrass Music!!!

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## lgc

I just seen him last week at WCU and he played about 4 or 5 Classic Bluegrass tunes. I've got his set-list from that night to prove it.

Sure, Elvis played some classic BG tunes. So did Dylan and Art Garfunkle and wasn't there a techno version of cotton eyed joe made in the last decade? I've heard Sam Bush for years and he plays rock. Not that he can't play BG but he chooses not to. Why not give the award to someone who is actively playing full shows of BLUEGRASS mandolin every night intead of a couplea tunes a night. It'd be like giving Ricky Skaggs the gutar award during his Stratocaster county days.

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## 45ACP-GDLF5

> I just seen him last week at WCU and he played about 4 or 5 Classic Bluegrass tunes. I've got his set-list from that night to prove it.
> 
> Sure, Elvis played some classic BG tunes. #So did Dylan and Art Garfunkle and wasn't there a techno version of cotton eyed joe made in the last decade? #I've heard Sam Bush for years and he plays rock. #Not that he can't play BG but he chooses not to. #Why not give the award to someone who is actively playing full shows of BLUEGRASS mandolin every night intead of a couplea tunes a night. #It'd be like giving Ricky Skaggs the gutar award during his Stratocaster county days.


Sam does NOT play rock music! You're wrong as wrong can be! Sam plays bluegrass in every show he does! He also plays Newgrass! Sam learned Bluegrass Music at a young age and has ALWAYS played it throughout his career, just not exclusively.

Elvis, Dylan, Garfunkle NEVER started out in Bluegrass! They've NEVER been associated with Bluegrass! You're analysis of Sam Bush is WRONG! He plays Bluegrass festivals all over the country every year! He breaks down, note for note, bluegrass tunes in all of his instructional DVD's including his breakdown of Bill Monroe's style and tunes in Bill's instructional DVD's. All his interviews, radio and TV, he talks about playing and learning Bluegrass!

How many more lessons in Sam Bush would you like, free of charge?

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## DryBones

> #Sam learned Bluegrass Music at a young age and has ALWAYS played it throughout his career, just not exclusively.


Pretty sure the B in IBMA means Bluegrass...exclusively and the awards are suppose to be for a 1 year time period not somebodies career. So was Sam the best "Bluegrass" picker for the past year? inquiring minds want to know

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## 45ACP-GDLF5

> Originally Posted by  (45ACP-GDLF5 @ Oct. 05 2007, 16:29)
> 
> #Sam learned Bluegrass Music at a young age and has ALWAYS played it throughout his career, just not exclusively.
> 
> 
> Pretty sure the B in IBMA means Bluegrass...exclusively and the awards are suppose to be for a 1 year time period not somebodies career. So was Sam the best "Bluegrass" picker for the past year? inquiring minds want to know # # #


According to his peers in Bluegrass, he was the best! They voted for him, and he got more votes than the other nominees, so I guess there's your answer. 

Personally, I wish Doyle Lawson would have won. All the other nominees have won except for Doyle. He's always nominated, but never wins and he's been playing mandolin longer than the other nominees! His progressive style has been on the scene since the 60's. He more than deserves it!!!

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## Brady Smith

I'm with lgc on this one...and was he the best bluegrass mandolin player this year...no way. Shouldn't have been nominated..there's too many other deserving bluegrass mando players.

It didn't stop there though...you've got Tony Trischka winning 3 times and Bradley Walker winning the Male Vocalist. I haven't heard much of Walker's songs but the 3 or 4 I've heard sound like another mediocre modern country singer. Non of them I've heard yet are bluegrass...I hope he has an album full of bluegrass somewhere I haven't heard yet.

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## 45ACP-GDLF5

> I'm with lgc on this one...and was he the best bluegrass mandolin player this year...no way. #Shouldn't have been nominated..there's too many other deserving bluegrass mando players.
> 
> It didn't stop there though...you've got Tony Trischka winning 3 times and Bradley Walker winning the Male Vocalist. #I haven't heard much of Walker's songs but the 3 or 4 I've heard sound like another mediocre modern country singer. #Non of them I've heard yet are bluegrass...I hope he has an album full of bluegrass somewhere I haven't heard yet.


Yeah whatever! Blah, blah, blah!

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## Ted Lehmann

Genius is a strange and wonderful and haunting characteristic which has destroyed as many people as it has made. There is no doubt that Bill Monroe was an authentic American genius. He took a variety of strands of music and melded them into a musical sub-genre that has honored his contribution by naming itself after Monroe's band. But Bill Monroe was often a difficult, jealous, demanding, and demeaning taskmaster. He was prone to look at developments in "his" music and reject them, saying "that ain't no part of nothin'." During his years at the Grand Ol' Opry he jealously protected his prerogatives, making it impossible for many years for new peformers to join the Opry. This block was finally broken when Alison Kraus was admitted to membership, the first new member in (I think)about twenty years.
During the early years of bluegrass music, great members of the first generation like the Osborne Brothers, Jim and Jesse McReynolds, and Earle Scruggs experimented with using drums and other alternative instruments on the bluegrass stage. These experiments were driven away by the "true" fans, proving themselves to be more conservative than some of the great contributers to the genre. It has only been the creative genius and courageous perseverance of great musicians like Sam Bush and Jerry Douglas who have been able, however precariously, to make the drum stick to the bluegrass stage.
Every time I've seen Sam Bush perform, he has done honor to Bill Monroe both in what he says and how he plays. He brings to his own playing the same kind of inventiveness that Monroe brought to his own. In a recent workshop at Otis Mtn. Music Festival in rural Elizabethtown, NY, Sam spoke with the greatest love and respect of Bill Monroe, recounting stories of having seen and learned from Monroe at the earliest bluegrass festivals in Virginia.
If musical creators like Bush, Douglas, Trischka and many more are not seen as representing the natural extension of the synthesis that became bluegrass music, then the genre is doomed to our own conservatism and ultimate demise. Unless we let the music grow by continuing to revere the founders whle developing the music in a variety of directions, we're in trouble. - Ted

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## AlanN

Ted for President!

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## AlanN

> [
> Personally, I wish Doyle Lawson would have won.


Right with you

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## Ted Lehmann

If nominated, I will not run.
If elected, I will not serve - Ted

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## DryBones

> Originally Posted by  (45ACP-GDLF5 @ Oct. 05 2007, 18:22)
> 
> [
> Personally, I wish Doyle Lawson would have won.
> 
> 
> Right with you


on this I agree completely.

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## Russ Jordan

[QUOTE]During his years at the Grand Ol' Opry he (Monroe) jealously protected his prerogatives, making it impossible for many years for new peformers to join the Opry. This block was finally broken when Alison Kraus was admitted to membership, the first new member in (I think)about twenty years.

If you look at the Opry history, you'll see something like 16 acts who joined in the 80's, and another 8 or so who joined in the early 90's prior to Alison Krauss. Perhaps you meant the first new "bluegrass member" in 20 years?

I would be interested if someone actually knew if Bill Monroe kept anyone off the Opry. It has been told/written that he tried to keep Flatt & Scruggs off the Opry, but was obviously unsuccessful. I think a lack of new bluegrass acts on the Opry prior to AK would likely be because Opry management did not want any.

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## Bradley

Doyle has definitely been overlooked...and so have ALOT of other folks.

I have followed the awards for years, but this years 
recipients just make me shake my head.....That entertainer award just blows me away...

On a personal note Doyle is awesome, but the Kenny and Amanda Gospel project was one of the best releases in 2007...it really was the real deal and one of my alltime favorites. I hope someday they make it into the "Circle"
of who's who

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## Soupy1957

> Originally Posted by  (lgc @ Oct. 05 2007, 08:39)
> 
> I guess my question is is, when did Sam Bush play bluegrass this year?
> 
> 
> Exactly...


I'm with ya on this one....his stuff (as talented as he truly is) has been more "pop" than I care for, lately.

-Soupy1957

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## Amandalyn

Well said, Ted. ( that rhymes, hmmm)
If you look at history- Bill Monroe was an innovator to the music at his time- taking oldtime and irish, scottish influences and playing them in his "new" style. I'm sure people looked at him as a progressive then.

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## lgc

Monroe was absolutly progressive in his time. Ted may be right about the conservation of the traditon dooming BG but I would argue that too much "progress" will doom it as well. And I'm sorry but there are some defining characteristics of BG. It does have a form and that form is debateable. I could write 5 pages here describing them but yall don't want that. If Sam Bush, right now, in his shows, is primaraly a BG musician, then really any band that has a mandolin, banjo, fiddle, dobro, upright bass, sings about home OR does Bob Marly covers is a BG band.

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## Dave Gumbart

Well, I checked the list of winners liked from the Cafe front page, and the first thing I saw? Carl Story inducted into the Hall of Fame. Cool! Particularly since I was unfamiliar with his music and only vaguely aware of his name, until about 2 weeks ago. Went to lunch with a work colleague at a place that serves up some lunch and 3 free books of your choice from their numerous shelves. Sort of a recycling program. They also had an old box of albums, so I checked those out. Managed to bring home "Lester n' Mac" from 1971 (with Roland White sitting in on those sessions), and "Mountain Music" by Carl Story and His Rambling Mountaineers, from 1976. A guy named Jeff Dalton on mando on that one.

Anyway, I was glad to learn more about some of the history of bluegrass, or mountain music as the liner notes decribe it. I enjoyed the album, and now, lo and behold, this induction from IBMA. Not that any award or honor is all that important in the long run, but interesting to see the coincidence in the timing. 

Moral of the post? Always scour those old boxes at tag sales, or even restaurants. Good stuff to be had, if you pay attention.

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## Lefty&French

> During the early years of bluegrass music, great members of the first generation like the Osborne Brothers, Jim and Jesse McReynolds, and Earle Scruggs experimented with using drums and other alternative instruments on the bluegrass stage. #These experiments were driven away by the "true" fans, proving themselves to be more conservative than some of the great contributers to the genre... #


In any form ((kind?)pardon my poor english)of art, fans have always be more conservative than artists.

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## Peter Hackman

> During the early years of bluegrass music, great members of the first generation like the Osborne Brothers, Jim and Jesse McReynolds, and Earle Scruggs experimented with using drums and other alternative instruments on the bluegrass stage. #These experiments were driven away by the "true" fans, proving themselves to be more conservative than some of the great contributers to the genre.


I question this historic account. First of all, bear in mind that the artists you enumerate were signed to major companies in the 60's, to Decca, Columbia, and Epic, respectively. It can therefore safely be assumed that much of the "experimenting" was driven by the producers.

 I don't recall much use of drumS either (except with the Osbornes), but rather a snare drum, often played in a very monotonous and unimaginative way. It was used on Flatt and Scruggs' records from the early 60's I believe, but, as I recall, never on a live album. 

Of course Don Law, or whoever produced them, hoped for a fuller, more solid sound - the drum was preceded by a sock rhythm guitar. Later they beefed out the sound with lead guitar, even 12-string, and harmonica (which F&S did include in their shows, played by Onie Wheeler or Earl Taylor); and they also took to recording material that especially Flatt didn't feel comfortable with, all in the hope of selling more records. All of this eventually lead to their breakup.

The Osbornes and Jimmy Martin used a snare on stage when I saw them in '69. It was played by Bobby's and Jimmy's sons (about 14 at the time)
which says something about the importance they, and their fans, attached to this little gadget. There was very little controversy, as the drum contributed so little. My own complaint was that it covered the guitar. I was so happy that Owen Bradley didn't force a snare on Monroe's records where the guitar is often very clearly audible.

The Osbornes went through several phases, and when their 
various "innovations" 
had exhausted their selling potential they retreated to a more ''traditional' sound. Part of the reason could be that they left Decca for a company that was much better at marketing their products.

J&J even went electric in the late 60's, but carried a BG group in the festival season. BG was on hard times in the the 60's. They had a few minor hits,
then exhausted that concept and went back to their original sound.

I don't believe any "true" fans had anything to do with this development.
A musician must eat. "Rocky Top" bought a farm.

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## Steve Cantrell

So Sam Bush's latest effort was enough to win the mando spot, but "Stomp" couldn't do it for Compton the previous year? Hmmmm.......

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## 45ACP-GDLF5

> So Sam Bush's latest effort was enough to win the mando spot, but "Stomp" couldn't do it for Compton the previous year? Hmmmm.......


Sam won Mandolin Player of the Year for his musicianship, NOT his latest recording. That's not what the award is for.

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## Steve Cantrell

I didn't think it was a congeniality contest. I assumed that the musician's recordings and performances were evaluated and that was the criteria for the decision. I think Sam's latest was good...but a mando tour-de-force it was NOT.

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## Russ Jordan

from ibma.org:

Instrumental Performers Of The Year

The awards for artists who, on recorded and/or in-person performance during the specified time period, have shown an extraordinary mastery of their instruments. Nominations and awards will be made in six (6) sub-categories: Banjo, Bass, Dobro, Fiddle, Guitar and Mandolin. The awards go to the artists.

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## elvisNoir

In a different line of complaint, and I say this as someone who likes and has seen these guys a couple of times, but the "Infamous Stringdusters" getting an award for the song about the fork in the road is, IMHO, flat-out lame. Maybe they'll get it some play on CMT, or some such, and that would be ok for them, but sheez, if that is about the best tune of the year, YIKES.

Just my opinion, but think about it.

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## Ken Sager

Here's a suggestion:

*Join the IBMA and vote.
*
Think about that.

Love to all,
Ken

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## f5loar

If we join the IBMA and vote then we would not be able to complain out the outcome here for FREE! 
I was hoping Dewey Farmer would have gotten mandolin of the year cause he did play in Carl Story's band but then he's not a member either.

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## 45ACP-GDLF5

> Here's a suggestion:
> 
> *Join the IBMA and vote.
> *
> Think about that.
> 
> Love to all,
> Ken


I've been an IBMA member for 2 years now, but I can't vote because I'm not a "professional artist". 

The outcomes would definitely be different if ALL IBMA members were allowed to vote!

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## 45ACP-GDLF5

> In a different line of complaint, and I say this as someone who likes and has seen these guys a couple of times, but the "Infamous Stringdusters" getting an award for the song about the fork in the road is, IMHO, flat-out lame. Maybe they'll get it some play on CMT, or some such, and that would be ok for them, but sheez, if that is about the best tune of the year, YIKES.
> 
> Just my opinion, but think about it.


I totally agree with you, elvisnoir! Song of the Year should have gone to DL&Q for "Sadie's Got Her New Dress On"

It's been #1 on the Bluegrass Charts for about 6 months now!

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## JHo

I've been an IBMA member for 2 years now, but I can't vote because I'm not a "professional artist". 

The outcomes would definitely be different if ALL IBMA members were allowed to vote![/QUOTE]
I wonder if enough people signed a petition of some sort, perhaps the IBMA might consider expanding the voting base to include all members and also the WOB and Fan Fest attendees. Hmm.

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## hedding

just curious, what is your logic behind saying "sam bush sounds like pop music" that makes no sense to me are you sure we're listening to the same Sam Bush?

there really is no argument whether saying Sam Bush plays bluegrass or not, he obviously does, he's been playing bluegrass his entire life. If you want to argue whether he plays ONLY bluegrass, maybe that would work but no one would probably argue with you there...

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## hedding

> Monroe was absolutly progressive in his time. #Ted may be right about the conservation of the traditon dooming BG but I would argue that too much "progress" #will doom it as well. #And I'm sorry but there are some defining characteristics of BG. #It does have a form and that form is debateable. #I could write 5 pages here describing them but yall don't want that. #If Sam Bush, right now, in his shows, is primaraly a BG musician, then really any band that has a mandolin, banjo, fiddle, dobro, upright bass, sings about home OR does Bob Marly covers is a BG band.


how does too much "progress" as you say potentially doom bluegrass? I don't understand this logic, maybe you can explian. Why does it have to be one or the other? Can't both exist peacefully together. Maybe you'll forget about the old stuff if you hear too much new but personally I don't think I'll ever be able to get it out of my head. Even if I tried!

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## Peter Hackman

> They also had an old box of albums, so I checked those out. #Managed to bring home "Lester n' Mac" from 1971 (with Roland White sitting in on those sessions), and "Mountain Music" by Carl Story and His Rambling Mountaineers, from 1976. #A guy named Jeff Dalton on mando on that one.


Wasn't he still a regular member of Flatt's group?

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## lgc

"Can't both exist peacefully together. Maybe you'll forget about the old stuff if you hear too much new but personally I don't think I'll ever be able to get it out of my head. Even if I tried!"

I'm not worried about people who know BG forgetting abouyt it but rather a generation having never heard it to begin with. With much of the old guard out of the picture,be they retired or passed on, there is more room for "progessive" acoustic music. I imagine there is conciderably less trad BG in the BG scene today than there has been in the past 35 years. Look at the billboard charts. Almost nothing. I think there does need to be a proactive attempt to preseve the tradition of BG because in music world increasingly drivin by money there is less and less room for a music with that much integrity.

About the awards-the people eho win do so because of their impact on the industry-how many fans they draw to acoustic music- and not because of there skill or ability. Sam Bush is a great mando play but there are guys who learned every lick he has and can play a thousand things he can't. He's just good for the business.

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## Russ Jordan

[quote]"About the awards-the people eho win do so because of their impact on the industry-how many fans they draw to acoustic music- and not because of there skill or ability."

I don't think that is necessarily the case: for instance Larry Sparks won 2 Male Vocalist of the Year Awards (very well deserved, IMO), and while Larry has a loyal following, I don't believe you could make the case that he is drawing a lot of new fans to acoustic music.

(quote)"Sam Bush is a great mando play but there are guys who learned every lick he has and can play a thousand things he can't."

Really? #

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## woodwizard

I would have voted for Sam Bush. I'm happy for him. He is diffinently one of the best this year. Seen him many times and he's always played some awesone Bluegrass on every show as well as his own style of pickin'. Didn't Bill Monroe say " You have to develope your own style". Sam has diffinently done that. I guess by now you can tell I'm a Sam Bush fan. I'm 11 days older than him. He signed my new Laps in Seven CD with: "Hey Mike, You'll always be older than me, Sam Bush" 
I had my mando with me that day and told him I needed a mandolin god to bless my mandolin. He said whip that baby out and preceded to do a sort of voodoo/mozo routine on it (it was so funny) and then whiped the strap over his shoulder and picked the dog %&#@! out of it. I don't have to tell you how proud I was. Later I found out my wife was snapping pic's all the while. Yeah!!!

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## Keith Wallen

lgc "Sam Bush is a great mando play but there are guys who learned every lick he has and can play a thousand things he can't. He's just good for the business." Plueeezzzz you can not believe this. That's about the lamest thing I have heard here for a while. It is not ones ability to copy someone else that makes them a great musician. It is the ability to interpret the melody, the dynamics, and feeling of a song and create a break or back up that fits it and no one is better at that than Sam!

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## lgc

You should be more diplomatic in your posts. You can disagree without being insulting. It discredits your point and makes you sound ignorant, which I"m sure you are not.

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## Big Joe

I know Sam. I seriously doubt there are many that can play anything he can't! He is a rare talent without question. Whether he deserves mandolin player of the year is another question. His peers seem to think so and I believe that is a group that seems to know what a mandolin player of the year should be able to play and sound like! Most of his "peers" are incredible professional players that could easily be player of the year themselves, but they chose Sam. If he is good enough for them, he's good enough for me.

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## elvisNoir

> Here's a suggestion:
> *Join the IBMA and vote.
> *
> Think about that.
> Love to all,
> Ken
> 
> 
> f5loar Online
> If we join the IBMA and vote then we would not be able to complain out the outcome here for FREE!


I won't quibble with your point about voting, because as someone has already pointed out, I have no vote. I won't spend much time on your less than helpful attitudes.

I will say that what I said was offered as a basis for discussion of what passes for market-leading songwriting, not as a target for smug sharpshooting. Y'all probably miss some good conversations.

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## lgc

I also think that the ability to process and replicate large amounts of music is a big component of being a great musician. I imagine Sam knows MANY of Monroe's breaks inside and out. He also probably could play a lot that Monroe couldn't. I'm not saying he is a better artist but that he has a greater degree of technical ability and there are people who learned many of Sam's msuical innovations and have made great strides for music of their own. Most great art and innovation is done by youth. He plays many of the same licks now as when he was in NGR. I don't judge him for that but the torch has been passed on.

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## Keith Wallen

I stopped being diplomatic when you did by stating that Sam was only good for business. I guess I felt there was no credibility for mandolin playing in your statement but you are entitled to your opinion and I apologies for slandering it.

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## Keith Wallen

lgc - Who are these mandolin players you speak of? I haven't heard them and am always looking for new things to learn myself.

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## Big Joe

lgc...I knew Bill Monroe also. He could pick anything he wanted. His technical prowress was not any less than any of the greats of this day. He chose a particular style that suited him, but believe me, there is a reason he is still considered to be the greatest in the BG field. Many top pickers have spent thier whole lives trying to do what he could and still can only do a portion of it. Each of the great ones have contributed thier own touch, but be sure they are not limited to just one style of playing. 

Herchell Sizemore is certainly not a Monroe clone and plays a completely different style, but I've heard him play some Monroe stuff that was as good as the Monroe himself. That is why these guys get to the top. The level of talent coupled with lots and LOTS of practice and innovate thinking has brought them to the forefront. It is not a competition, but rather a discovery. Don't put one down to satisfy your ego or lack of accomplishment. Each deserves all the credit they have been given.

We are fortunate to have so many great mandolin players on the scene currently. The future looks incredibly bright for the mandolin as so many of the young kids coming up can play things we could not even imagine at that age. In time some of them will rise to the top and some will only rise a ways. Let's be thankful for the ones we have, encourage the young ones, and do the best we can with what talent and time we have. Competition is fine, but often misplaced.

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## AlanN

The awards show (really any such thing) is much too arbitrary to realistically refelct a true state of art and its practitioners. Yes, Sam is now considered old guard. The new breed has its heroes and great ones. When the awards brain trust catches up with that is anybody's guess. I for one like the fact that some of the old guys are still considered 'the best'. That will inevitably change.

Tony Rice said it best about Sam (and I paraphrase)

"Whenever he TOUCHES the instrument, it's valuable"

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## lgc

"Don't put one down to satisfy your ego or lack of accomplishment. "

How exactly did I put anyone down? I have not said that Sam Bush is not a great musician. I did not say that he has not greatly contributed to mandolin playing. But it does seem strange that one would not be allowed to think those things. I misspoke when I said Sam was only good for business-I did mean that he won a BG award because it was good for business. I merely stated an opinion that you seemingly disagree with. I think many mandolin player desreve credit and that credit is sparringly spread around. There are so many great mandolin players who are just as good as Sam Bush(meaning they are wonderful) who get little or no recognition from the BG or acoustic music world. 

Frank Wakefield hasn't been playing BG for over 50 years and he also wasn't one of the most innovative. In the last 10 years he hasn't put out a bunch of wonderful recordings that are not even really on the radar. I guess my point was misread because I'm fo more recognition, not less.

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## Keith Wallen

"Frank Wakefield hasn't been playing BG for over 50 years and he also wasn't one of the most innovative. In the last 10 years he hasn't put out a bunch of wonderful recordings that are not even really on the radar. I guess my point was misread because I'm fo more recognition, not less." Ok now I am really confused to the points you are trying to make. Are you trying to talk backwards like Frank does? 
Also I am curious who these mandolin players are that know everything Sam can do plus thousands of things more?? If that is true they deserve much more than an award.

----------


## 45ACP-GDLF5

> I also think that the ability to process and replicate large amounts of music is a big component of being a great musician. #I imagine Sam knows MANY of Monroe's breaks inside and out. #He also probably could play a lot that Monroe couldn't. #I'm not saying he is a better artist but that he has a greater degree of technical ability and there are people who learned many of Sam's msuical innovations and have made great strides for music of their own. #Most great art and innovation is done by youth. #He plays many of the same licks now as when he was in NGR. #I don't judge him for that but the torch has been passed on.


One wonders how many times you have seen Sam Bush in person, or buy his music or instructional DVD's, and yet keep posting incorrect info about him?

15 years ago he made an instructional DVD, breaking down Bill Monroe's style and several of his tunes, note for note. 

The style he plays now is a lot different from the NGR days. He rarely even plays NGR tunes anymore. He included 1 NGR song on his new DVD out of 17.

Sam stills gets shunned by certain radio stations and festivals. He still gets criticized and judged wrongly by people who can't get past the late 60's when Bluegrass started progressing past the traditional style. #Those who do this, actually are less learn-ed than what they actually know from experience or "knowledge"!

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## lgc

I'm not gonna take that bait. I think a BG award should go to what I consided a BG musician. I think the same people win time and again and that marginalizes many great artists. And like all award shows, there is a high degree of business involved, which taints the validity of their reflection of artistry. Sam Bush is a really good musician. I just don't think he was the best reflection of a BG mandolin player last year.

----------


## first string

> "Can't both exist peacefully together. Maybe you'll forget about the old stuff if you hear too much new but personally I don't think I'll ever be able to get it out of my head. Even if I tried!"
> 
> I'm not worried about people who know BG forgetting abouyt it but rather a generation having never heard it to begin with. With much of the old guard out of the picture,be they retired or passed on, there is more room for "progessive" acoustic music. I imagine there is conciderably less trad BG in the BG scene today than there has been in the past 35 years. Look at the billboard charts. Almost nothing. I think there does need to be a proactive attempt to preseve the tradition of BG because in music world increasingly drivin by money there is less and less room for a music with that much integrity.
> 
> About the awards-the people eho win do so because of their impact on the industry-how many fans they draw to acoustic music- and not because of there skill or ability. Sam Bush is a great mando play but there are guys who learned every lick he has and can play a thousand things he can't. He's just good for the business.


Well I got into bluegrass because of hearing Strength in Numbers, and have followed it back to Monroe, Flatt and Scruggs, etc.

As for other players being able to play every lick Sam B can...I'm sure you're right. But I've never heard anyone play rhythm the way he can.

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## Kevin Briggs

Regarding how "good" Sam Bush is:

I have two recordings that settled the topic for me.

1. Sam Bush and David Grisman mandolin workshop (Merlefest in the 90s?)
2. Bush, O' Brien, Flinner, and Emmitt mando workshop at Grey Fox in the 90s.

In both situations, Sam Bush was the monster in the groupings. Grisman is great and has his sweet tremolo and signature licks. The others were also great, each with their great stylistic identities. But, Sam Bush was playing within' his rhythmic, aggressive style and he was just clearly the ace. I don't know about shining so brightly in the studio, as that may be Grisman's fortay, but I do know that in that live, intimate setting, he was the brightest light.

Obviously, this is my opinion and that's all, but it was so obvious to me listening to the recordings.

----------


## Col. Suggs

I'm just miffed that David Lee Roth didn't win vocalist of the year. #

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## mandolirius

The thing is, awards shows are not really about recognizing the best. That's the stated goal but the real goal is to promote the overall genre, be it movies, pop music or whatever. That's why awards shows are held. They're promotional. It's just a bit too crass to come right out and say that.

I remember the blazing controversy over Bruce Hornsby winning an IBMA award many years back. At the time, I had a bluegrass radio show on a major-market country station and what I observed is that following that, people around the station who couldn't even spell bluegrass where suddenly interested and asking me questions. So quibbling about who actually wins the awards (like fighting about best picture in the oscars) is really kind of missing the point of the whole thing. 

For me, when you're talking about musicians at the level most of the nominees are at, "best" becomes an almost meaningless term. I mean was Van Gogh better than Rembrant, Mozart better than Beethoven? Even in sports, you're only the best the year you win. "Best" has a short shelf life.

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## Ken Sager

> Originally Posted by  (Ken Sager @ Oct. 07 2007, 20:12)
> 
> Here's a suggestion:
> *Join the IBMA and vote.
> *
> Think about that.
> Love to all,
> Ken
> 
> ...


My less than helpful attitudes?

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## GVD

> Ken Sager Posted 
> 
> My less than helpful attitudes?


Attitude's one thing but what about your *smug sharpshooting*?

Evidently he read something in your post the rest of us didn't. # 

GVD

----------


## Ken Sager

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> Ken Sager Posted 
> 
> My less than helpful attitudes?
> 
> 
> Attitude's one thing but what about your *smug sharpshooting*?
> 
> ...


I suppose I could have commented on his reply that what he "offered as a basis for discussion of what passes for market-leading songwriting" was nothing more than a bland statement of his opinion which isn't very arguable, quite frankly. I'm not disagreeing, but stating an opinion as a basis for discussion isn't as stimulating as stating the flaws in the process that lead to the flawed outcome of the awards. That seems to be the more interesting topic at hand here, not his opinion of whether the Stringdusters should have won song of the year ("YIKES").

Now that was smug, but not very sharp... and certainly not helpful...

If you want to change the process join at the professional level and vote. That's my best suggestion. That, and attend the IBMA membership meetings and bring up your topics for discussion there where it might be meaningful.

Love to all,
Ken

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## mythicfish

Something tells me that Mr. Bush cares less about this stuff than y'all do.

Curt

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## swampstomper

IMHO no one, but no one, can put the Texas Fiddle feeling into a mandolin tune like Sam Bush. Not even considering all the other stuff he can do. Just go listen to some of his breaks on old Kenny Baker records ("Make Me a Little Boat" from Frost on the Pumpkins). And who did Doc Watson call when he wanted a bluegrass band to back him on his bluegrass project? I consider Sam a very worthy recipient. He loves and respects BG, he wastes no opportunity to pay homage to the fathers.

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## Ted Lehmann

It saddens me that this discussion has devolved into a shouting match between members of this forum. I think it would be a wonderful thing if more people joined IBMA and voted or if IBMA would extend its franchise to fan members as well as professional ones. As it is, one of the most gratifying aspects of writing my blog and announcing my posts on various forums has been my recent realiztion that professional musicians and others on the professional side in the bluegrass world read the blogs and forums and are intensely interested in what the fan base thinks. I should imagine that when the discussion turns from thoughtful to spiteful, they turn us off and start going elsewhere. I'm pleased that, this year at least, the voting membership made some less than totally obvious choices and gave awards to some people whose year or career richly deserve recognition. - Ted

----------


## Peter Hackman

> IMHO no one, but no one, can put the Texas Fiddle feeling into a mandolin tune like Sam Bush. Not even considering all the other stuff he can do. Just go listen to some of his breaks on old Kenny Baker records ("Make Me a Little Boat" from Frost on the Pumpkins). And who did Doc Watson call when he wanted a bluegrass band to back him on his bluegrass project? I consider Sam a very worthy recipient. #He loves and respects BG, he wastes no opportunity to pay homage to the fathers.


Not an argument (because arguing on matters of taste is futile) but many times, as I browse the catalogs, I wonder: are there any fiddle players besides Stuart Duncan, any Dobro® players besides Jerry Douglas, any mandolin players besides Sam Bush?

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## Keith Wallen

I think everyone needs to go to this link and check out the past winners especially the mandolin catagory. 
IBMA Past Winners

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## mandolirius

&lt;It saddens me that this discussion has devolved into a shouting match between members of this forum.&gt;

I'm not exactly thrilled by a discussion that seems revolves around the relative merits of the winner but, in all candor, I think you probably set that up by posting an "analysis" of the awards. It's not an academic treatise, it's an award show, the real goal of which is to promote the music. Arguing over, or even "analyzing" who actually gets the awards is counterproductive. Instead, analze the whole thing. Was it well-produced, entertaining, present the music in the best light etc. These are the hallmarks of success in an awards show. 

Who actually wins? Please. How can that ever be resolved? I like Sam, you like Bill, someone else likes Ron...hey, what about this guy? Sure, he's been dead for two decades but he never got the recognition in life he should have. Hey, there's never been a female winner. A woman should win next year...and on and on.

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## Ken Sager

I think it was a great show. The stage was beautiful, the hosting, theme of the dream in the radio, the musical performances, presenters, all of it. I was proud to be a member of an organization that put together such an amazing event. 

Did I agree with who should have won? That hardly matters. The awards themselves are a strange bird and are hard to understand, let alone explain.

I'll go again, and vote again.

I apologize for contributing to the devolution of this discussion. I didn't think my first post was bait, and I certainly didn't mean for it to be taken as such. My reply was smug, and I'm sorry.

Love to all,
Ken

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## picksnbits

Four recipients over a period of 17 years? That don't hardly seem right, now does it?

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## Keith Wallen

picksnbits - I don't think that seems right. Maybe they should make a rule about if you win this year you are un-eligable next year. At least for the individual awards.

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## mandolirius

&lt;Maybe they should make a rule about if you win this year you are un-eligable next year. At least for the individual awards&gt;

I don't think the problem is winning in consecutive years, but some contests have a rule that after you've won a certain amount of times, you're put into some category (past masters or whatever) and are ineligible after that. If a person's won it five times or something like that, do they really need a sixth award?

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## Paul Kotapish

The IBMA awards--like most awards programs--are never going to be an accurate reflection of the true breadth and depth of the scene. I've attended the IBMA awards and convention, and my perception was that the real action--and artistry--was off stage and in the hallways, meeting rooms, and guest suites. The awards themselves are just a popularity poll amongst the IBMA members eligible to vote and are in no way representative of the whole bluegrass world. They are, however, a pretty good excuse for a party.

Popular entertainment awards--Oscars, Emmys, Grammys, IBMA, etc.--rarely get it right in terms of awarding the best artistry. 

Alison Krause has won more Grammys than any other bluegrass artist or any other female artist, for that matter, and she is tied in seventh place for most awards ever. _Titanic_ won 11 Academy Awards while _Citizen Kane_ nabbed only one. 

I don't begrudge Ms. Krause her well-deserved kudos, and I'm told that many people actually liked watching _Titantic_, but this just proves to me that no one should take these peer-recognition awards too seriously.

As for drums in bluegrass bands, I have to say that while I didn't exactly love the sound of the trap set with the Osborne Brothers, that wasn't nearly as distressing as those gold lamé jumpsuits they were sporting for a while there in the early '70s.

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## mandolirius

&lt;while I didn't exactly love the sound of the trap set with the Osborne Brothers, that wasn't nearly as distressing as those gold lamé jumpsuits they were sporting for a while there in the early '70s.&gt;

amen to that.

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## bluegrassrulz

I believe it was music, which Bush was playing that Monroe referred to as "#### grass"....

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## AlanN

> &lt;while I didn't exactly love the sound of the trap set with the Osborne Brothers, that wasn't nearly as distressing as those gold lamé jumpsuits they were sporting for a while there in the early '70s.&gt;
> 
> amen to that.


Now, hold on, Fashion Gurus!

Those suits were cool. And completely in vogue at the time. I get a kick out of flipping through my albums and looking at the leisure suit ensembles that bands typically did their cover shots in. Right up through the 70's, it was common to see the same light color, wide lapel jacket and slacks look that band members posed in. One Lost&Found record sticks out, also a Bill Harrell record with Larry Stephenson, several BG Cardinals records, and a record by a band called Bluegrass Blend, which featured a young Kent Dowell on banjo. Monroe never seemed to catch that look, preferring instead the white shirt and tie look.

Frankly, some of today's crop of bands dress POORLY, right down to baggy, grubby jeans and dingy t-shirts. Didn't their mommas tell 'em how to dress?

Bring Back The Leisure Suit!

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## mythicfish

"Frankly, some of today's crop of bands dress POORLY, right down to baggy, grubby jeans and dingy t-shirts. Didn't their mommas tell 'em how to dress?"

Maybe it's an improvement on what momma taught 'em. 
Good-by, string tie. 
Hello, pork pie hat.

Curt

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## GVD

> Didn't their mommas tell 'em how to dress?


You might not have to ask that question after you see the way some of their mommas dress. # 

GVD

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## lgc

I really would like to know where the line is crossed to where something stops being BG. I know there is the "no genre" answer but that's not what I'm looking for. What would Sam Bush or some other other progressive bands have to do to not be concidered BG?

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## Scott Tichenor

> It saddens me that this discussion has devolved into a shouting match between members of this forum. I think it would be a wonderful thing if more people joined IBMA and voted or if IBMA would extend its franchise to fan members as well as professional ones. As it is, one of the most gratifying aspects of writing my blog and announcing my posts on various forums has been my recent realiztion that professional musicians and others on the professional side in the bluegrass world read the blogs and forums and are intensely interested in what the fan base thinks. I should imagine that when the discussion turns from thoughtful to spiteful, they turn us off and start going elsewhere. I'm pleased that, this year at least, the voting membership made some less than totally obvious choices and gave awards to some people whose year or career richly deserve recognition. - Ted


There's a very simple solution to this, herr Ted. Open up your blog for discussion/comments by readers then deal with it as you see fit. Or better yet, open your own forum. It's really fun. 

I've commented this before, but you really seem more interested in driving traffic to your blog than participating, which is obvious from a search of your posts here, most of which haven't resulted in discussion other than hot-button topics.

Proof of that is in the posting.

Maybe you can make a future topic on your blog about the evil Mandolin Cafe administrator. That'd guarantee a LOT more traffic to your site.

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## AlanN

> I really would like to know where the line is crossed to where something stops being BG. #I know there is the "no genre" answer but that's not what I'm looking for. #What would Sam Bush or some other other progressive bands have to do to not be concidered BG?


With all due respect, and absolutely no offence intended....go practice your mandolin

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## lgc

I am. I type with my toes.

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## AlanN

I *thought* I smelled something

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## lgc

Nothin like stinkin up a message board.

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## Lefty&French

> _Titanic_ won 11 Academy Awards while _Citizen Kane_ nabbed only one. 
> (...)this just proves to me that no one should take these peer-recognition awards too seriously...


My thoughts exactly!

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## Big Joe

In relation to ALanN's comment on band dress....I really am disappointed in so many of the bands looking like they just left the factory and showed up to jam...in front of a few thousand people. I think they call it SHOW business for a reason. Too many bands have forgotten the SHOW part. A nicely uniformed band can certainly hold attention better than a few guys who just happened to show up. 

I don't know if anyone else has felt this way, but I always felt shortchanged to pay for a ticket to watch a band and they look like they may be homeless. While that could be true in Bluegrass where it is possilbe to make tens of dollars annually,  , it still seems a bit out of place. What say you all?

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## mandolirius

&lt;In relation to ALanN's comment on band dress....I really am disappointed in so many of the bands looking like they just left the factory and showed up to jam...in front of a few thousand people. I think they call it SHOW business for a reason. Too many bands have forgotten the SHOW part. A nicely uniformed band can certainly hold attention better than a few guys who just happened to show up. 

I don't know if anyone else has felt this way, but I always felt shortchanged to pay for a ticket to watch a band and they look like they may be homeless. While that could be true in Bluegrass where it is possilbe to make tens of dollars annually, , it still seems a bit out of place. What say you all?&gt;

First is the music, which is not to say appearance isn't important. I think there's a lot of room in between uniforms and "looking like you're homeless". Dress pants or even a good-looking pair of jeans, decent shoes and a clean, pressed shirt works for me. Most bands I see look fine. I have more concern about the lack of showmanship I see in a lot of bluegrass performances.

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## Klaus Wutscher

> I have more concern about the lack of showmanship I see in a lot of bluegrass performances.


Definitely! Many bands are just boring to watch. Been guilty of that, too. I only realized what a problem this is when I had my own band and emceed. It´s quite hard to get and keep the attention of an audience when the only thing you have to offer is the music - which the audience wasn´t familiar with (or came to hear) in the first place...



While I agree that dressing up for the gig sometimes apears to be an abandoned art form, I can´t stand the uniform thing either. The only bands that look(ed) good in suits were The BG Boys, Hot Rize (watch those ties!) and Del. I like players to wear something that is in sync with their personality - blame it on being raised on the Beatles

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## AlanN

> Originally Posted by  (mandolirius @ Oct. 11 2007, 01:37)
> 
> I have more concern about the lack of showmanship I see in a lot of bluegrass performances.
> 
> 
> Definitely! Many bands are just boring to watch. Been guilty of that, too. I only realized what a problem this is when I had my own band and emceed. It´s quite hard to get and keep the attention of an audience when the only thing you have to offer is the music - which the audience wasn´t familiar with (or came to hear) in the first place...
> 
> 
> 
> While I agree that dressing up for the gig sometimes apears to be an abandoned art form, I can´t stand the uniform thing either. The only bands that look(ed) good in suits were The BG Boys, Hot Rize (watch those ties!) and Del. I like players to wear something that is in sync with their personality - blame it on being raised on the Beatles


The whole deal is tough: coming up with meaty set lists, consistently performing at a high calibre, keeping the show exciting and moving forward, not to mention the 'nuts and bolts' - setting up/tearing down, lugging product, DRIVING, doing the wash, etc., etc.

And I am not in favor of 'uniforms', per se. The Leisure Suit Larry look of the 70's is mercifully defunct. But, professional attire goes a long way. Del and band probably epitomize the look. Tony Rice ususally dresses sharp. Grisman sometimes looks like a bag lady. I saw a well-known band (top banjo picker, sports the Yul Brynner look - this probably gives it away) recently. Except for him, the whole band was dressed as though they just changed the oil on the bus.

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## kyblue

> the whole band was dressed as though they just changed the oil on the bus.


I'd rather see this than everyone in suits, looking like they think they are in church. That turns me off, particularly when it's at a bluegrass festival in the heat of the summer. To me, that's inappropriate.

But then, I go for the music (and, sometimes to see the guy sporting the YB look.)  

Paula

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## JEStanek

The newer generation of stringband fans, like myself (38) didn't grow up on music with uniforms (unless you count the Village people). I've seen Thilé (almost a stringband Cobain totally mesh with audiences, Grisman (the Hawaiian Santa Claus), and Marty Stuart (leather pants Nashvegas look), Ralph Stanely (very Old School in hat and jacket in August heat).

I'm with Paula... I'm there for the music. I would be dissapointed to see Uncle Earl in Go To Meeting clothes instead of the casual look the perform in. 

Jamie

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## lgc

The way Bill and Frank Wakefield put it is that dressing up shows respect for the audience. Instead of giving of the, "I dragged myself out of bed to grace you with my geniuos look" tht many young band have, they tried to show the audience that it was there privalege to have people listening to there art. They were grateful that others allowed them to feel the high and gratification of performance and wanted to show their respect. 

I think that there is something as too casual. I saw one of the Cherryholmes kids answer a cell phone on stage at the end of Bean Blossom last year while preforming. This was with Marty Stewart and JD Crow on stage. Musicians need to appreciate their audiences. Especially younger bands.

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## Kevin Briggs

I'm 30 and I agree. I wouldn't answer my cell phone in the middle of teaching a class. It shows disprespect to everyone I'm teaching. It's like, "You matter less than this other person, but thanks for your money."

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## Ted Lehmann

In line with Scott's comment...I'm more than happy to have people leave comments on my blog rather than discuss them here, although I think the number of page views and the number of responses generated by my IBMA post suggest there's plenty of interest in what I posted. I have tried to put at least some mandolin emphasis in my posts. - Ted

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## swampstomper

I don't really care about the dress if the attitude says "we're excited to be here entertaining you, and we love what we do". From there it's a personal preference. In the past year I've seen Sam Bush and band (tie dyed special), NBB (whatever nice clothes they were wearing and one clean set of overalls :-)), Andy Statman (the Brooklyn Orthodox uniform), Danny Paisley (street clothes), and the aforementioned shaved-head banjoist and his lonesome friends (Andy Ball with mechanic's shirt hanging out).... and I thoroughly enjoyed all of them, because they all had the attitude I described. What I can't stand is the "well, I guess we'll do our standard set and collect our paycheck" attitude, which was (for me) epitomized by James Monroe.

----------


## MandoSquirrel

[QUOTE= (AlanN @ Oct. 11 2007, 07:56)]


> Originally Posted by mandolirius,Oct. 11 2007, 01:37
> 
> I have more concern about the lack of showmanship I see in a lot of bluegrass performances.
> 
> 
>  I saw a well-known band (top banjo picker, sports the Yul Brynner look - this probably gives it away) recently. Except for him, the whole band was dressed as though they just changed the oil on the bus.


In the mandolin world, that's the "Howard Frye look"  .

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## Rroyd

Maybe the band members looked that way because the bus had broken down and they had been repairing it. A well-known band leader was known for having the band members try to repair the bus when it broke down, which was a frequent occurrence.

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## AlanN

> #A well-known band leader was known for having the band members try to repair the bus when it broke down, which was a frequent occurrence.


Touche

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## lgc

It musta been nice to have a time when BG musicians actually knew how to change a tire. Don't let these young acoustic bands fool you though. It costs a lot to look that shlepy.

----------


## Brady Smith

> The newer generation of stringband fans, like myself (38) didn't grow up on music with uniforms


hmmmmm...I'm 37 and I grew up with it. Every group I was into dressed in uniforms or matching suits or dressy clothes at the very least etc. George Jones, Bill Monroe, Buck Owens, Conway and many more in the country world especially. I thought even at 16 years old it added to the show and showed a level of professionalism.

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## JEStanek

I didn't grow up on stringband music (unless you count the classical music my folks listened too and those people were in tuxes...), I grew up on funk from my older brothers in the mid - late 70s then REM, Smiths, Public Enemy, Sonic Youth, Coltrane, Bauhaus, Pixies, Connels, College rock in 80s -90s. I got into stringbands and old time in the 2000s. 

I guess that's what I mean by new generation... those getting into it within the past 5-10 years.

I saw plenty of Hee Haw though!  And those were costumes rather than uniforms! I like well mannered performers who play well and conect with the crowd, regardless of what they're wearing.

Jamie

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## AlanN

Don't get me wrong. Suits and ties are not required. I remember one hot summer, seeing Del at the old Denton festival. Bub was sweating so much his shirt was literally pasted to his body. He looked wilted.

Clean and neat, that is all. You can even do a 'wide stance', if you want to

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## RichieK

Alan, 
Getting the term 'wide stance' in this topic is a classic!
That's like searching 'Larry Craigs List' for someone to pick with!

Richie

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## mingusb1

Ah yes, band dress...

What really gets me is pickers wearing a ballcap pulled down low. A look cultivated by a number of jam or "jamgrass" bands. That is awful. What better way to say to the audience "don't look at me" and "i don't wanna see you, either"?

Here is a concept that I believe: dressing better makes you play and perform better.

Works for me!
Z

----------


## Jonathan Peck

> It musta been nice to have a time when BG musicians actually knew how to change a tire. #Don't let these young acoustic bands fool you though. #It costs a lot to look that shlepy.


Duuuude, do you have anything in the closet that isn't plaid  BTW - say high to Katie for me, we miss her!

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## Jonathan Peck

Silas ole buddy...you must really like that shirt

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## bradeinhorn

is that katy cox on fiddle?

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## lgc

I figured, why shange clothes after you've been in the Chronicle right?

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## lgc

I'm actually wearing that shirt with an exact copy of it under that right now. Even my boxerts are that pattern.

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## Jonathan Peck

> is that katy cox on fiddle?


Yeah, hard to belive ain't it. she'll be passing back through shortly

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## bradeinhorn

that's a nicer pic.

----------


## mandopete

I'm enjoying the lively discussion about bluegrass band appearance. #Just like the music itself, there seems to be several camps and that's what makes it a bit of a challenge. #At the IBMA leadership conference there was some discussion about the fact that bluegrass performers don't view their perfomance as "entertainment" like we see in the country or rock music genres.

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## lgc

At the IBMA leadership conference there was some discussion about the fact that bluegrass performers don't view their perfomance as "entertainment" like we see in the country or rock music genres. 


That is weird. What else could it be? Especially when you look at the roots with coedy and baseball and boxing. I'll agree that a lot of what I hear doesn't entertain me. 

That needs some more explaining cause I don't get that at all.

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## Kevin Briggs

> At the IBMA leadership conference there was some discussion about the fact that bluegrass performers don't view their perfomance as "entertainment" like we see in the country or rock music genres. 
> 
> 
> That is weird. #What else could it be? #Especially when you look at the roots with coedy and baseball and boxing. #I'll agree that a lot of what I hear doesn't entertain me. #
> 
> That needs some more explaining cause I don't get that at all.


I think maybe it's because bluegrass is a more instrumental music than the other genres you netioned. I love seing a bluegrass band, but I ultimately like the sound better, you knwo what I mean. It's not a forced performance. They need to concentrate on playing, because it's pretty tough to do. 

Now, the Sledom Scene sort of defies the point. They don't "perform," so to speak, but they have a great stage presence. Their music is so beatiful and great to me, and seeing them live links it all together. They sort of walk in step with their jokes, their breaks, etc. That's a good performance in my book.

Dylan kind of does the same thing. Although he's basically a rock star, he does not perform. He does 100 gigs a year, but he just sings and plays (not much of a player, in my book, and I love his music). I could go see him any day of the week an dlove it, because the songs do the entertaining, and the small, mysterious man up on stage gels nicely with the messages in his lyrics. It all comes together.

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## mandopete

Here's the comment that was made at the IBMA leadership conference...

.one thing that strikes me as profound is how much more advanced other genres are in terms of the "show" part of show business.  I remain bored to tears with most bluegrass bands. I'd much prefer to listen to the record where I don't have to be subjected to their boring stage show. Sounds strong, and I suppose it is, but when you see how much more advanced other genres are in terms of stage presentation, it underscores the very reason that many bluegrass artists will always remain in the dark ages of the music business.  Interestingly, this doesn't necessarily always have to do with technology either, but rather stage presentation and dynamics. It also has, in my opinion, little to do with musical style or the fact that bluegrass is primarily acoustic.

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## lgc

Musicians are taking themselves too seriously if they don't concider themselves entertainment.

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## Kevin Briggs

True enough. We get into this idol worship thing. I dont' do it anymore, but I used to do that with Dylan. Everything he sang about just seemed like it came from me, not him. I loved it.

Even today, I think admiring someone's musical skills makes us put up with whatever they can't seem to do in terms of performance. I know the banjo player in my group would completely disagree with me. He is mesmerized by bluegrass bands, to the point that he's obsessed. The problem with that is, he mistakenly thinks everyone can and will get into it as much as he is. He's wrong, for the most part, and that's evident by the attendance at some of our gigs. We play good music, and we do it pretty well. If we ere 10 times better, the result might be the same.

It's no surprise to me, but people in Lancaster, PA typically want a rock band, and a Bruce Springsteen cover band would be ideal for most Lancastrians. So, as one of Lancaster's only bluegrass bands, it's a tough draw. I do it for fun, so it's cool with me, but our banjo player is a little confused as to why nobody wants to come. He thinks they will look into our eyes, hear our picking, see our hands moving quickly, and that will be that. It's not realistic. Maybe if we were on the road or something, and opening for a bigger bill than ourseoves. The marketing aspect just controls our perceptions and we don't even realize it. Many times we want what we're fed. For example, most of us will say taht Skaggs is great. I agree that he is too. However, he is on top of the mountain, and at least part of his success is based on his reputation. It's so hard to see through it all and see if we really like something, or if we like the idea of it.

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## mandopete

I dunno, I think you have to model your performance to your audience. #What Chris Thile does (and wears) works for him and his audience. #Same for performers like Del McCoury, Cherryholmes and the Infamous Stringdusters. #There is no one correct format or "look". #But one thing I find in common with these aforementioned performers is that they (IMHO) really connect with the audience. #

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## Jonathan Peck

So what would be fitting for bluegrass entertainment?

1) blow-up a car like Wendy-O?
2) burn your guitar like Hendrix?
3) Dress up in over the top costumes and act out the charectors like Gwar?
4) Have the bass player lifted into the air and dangled over the audience like Motley Crue?
5) Pyrotechnics/fireworks?
6) Matching costumes with everyone dancing in unison like the R&B guys?
7) Spin your hair around like at a speed metal show?
8) wear really tight pants like Robert Plant in the Zep days?
9) Have back-up dancers gyrate like in a rap video
10) Stage diving like at a punk show?
11) do karate on stage like Van Halen or Vegas Elvis
12) Play your butt off and tell a few jokes between songs like them old dudes did?
13) Dress up like a chicken?

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## lgc

BG used to have all sorts of entertainment aspects. Look at the Colonels. They were funny. I think Ron Thomasson does an amazing job. My BGers don't realy engage the audience at all. I think it is a skill like anything else that most players seem to over look. Frank does a great job at it to, in his own way. Bluegrass just needs to embrace itself to be more entertaining. It is honest and engaging as a genre and should also be as a performance.

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## mandopete

I'm thinking dress up like a chicken is the way to go!

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## mandolirius

So what would be fitting for bluegrass entertainment?

1) blow-up a car like Wendy-O?
2) burn your guitar like Hendrix?
3) Dress up in over the top costumes and act out the charectors like Gwar?
4) Have the bass player lifted into the air and dangled over the audience like Motley Crue?
5) Pyrotechnics/fireworks?
6) Matching costumes with everyone dancing in unison like the R&B guys?
7) Spin your hair around like at a speed metal show?
8) wear really tight pants like Robert Plant in the Zep days?
9) Have back-up dancers gyrate like in a rap video
10) Stage diving like at a punk show?
11) do karate on stage like Van Halen or Vegas Elvis
12) Play your butt off and tell a few jokes between songs like them old dudes did?
13) Dress up like a chicken? 

The chicken thing is so over. But if you could manage to combine the rest of it, that's a show!

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## JHo

I don't know how a chicken suit could ever really go out of style.

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## first string

> So what would be fitting for bluegrass entertainment?
> 
> 1) blow-up a car like Wendy-O?
> 2) burn your guitar like Hendrix?
> 3) Dress up in over the top costumes and act out the charectors like Gwar?
> 4) Have the bass player lifted into the air and dangled over the audience like Motley Crue?
> 5) Pyrotechnics/fireworks?
> 6) Matching costumes with everyone dancing in unison like the R&B guys?
> 7) Spin your hair around like at a speed metal show?
> ...


What about wearing a far too tight, purple, crushed velvet suite (w/ rhinestones), and doing awkward little kicks, like Van Morison with The Band on the Last Waltz?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxYV1jGuj5U

Now that's what I call being an entertainer.

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## first string

Oops. I guess that doesn't count as BG.

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## Jonathan Peck

.one thing that strikes me as profound is how much more advanced other genres are in terms of the "show" part of show business. "

Am I the only one who thinks this statement is just plain silly?...Or is it that I'm picturing Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys coming out on stage in leather outfits like Judas Priest...or maybe Ralph Stanley in 8" heels wagging his tongue at the audience and spitting fire like Gene Simmons...andvanced, I say hockeypucks. 

If people want to pay to see a spectacle, let them...there's plenty of it around these days to see.

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## mandopete

I don't think that is the point at all. I see far too many bluegrass bands that don't even make eye contact with an audience, much less consider the visual aspect of their performance.

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## Ken Sager

I have to admit that one of the best performances I saw at IBMA's FanFest was Mountain Heart. They rocked, and they had their shirts out, ratty jeans, etc. They connected with each other and invited the audience in by loving what they were doing. It was terrific. Of course their musicianship is stunning and their vocal ability is top notch. They had an easy way of talking with the audience, with each other, too. They were just guys playing awesome bluegrass and having fun. I really like that kind of show.

I don't know how anybody could overlook what they did on stage and get hung up on what they wore, but I'm sure it happened. I found it very easy to overlook what they wore to see and feel the performance.

Still an interesting discussion.

Best,
Ken

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## mythicfish

Dress code? Long pants, no sneakers, no t-shirts does it for me.
Try to be entertaining. But if you really have to try, then you're trying too hard.
Band interaction: Try to act as though you like each other. Often difficult to do in family bands.

Curt

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## Klaus Wutscher

One thing that certainly limits the visual impact is the microphone thing, esp. when using individual mikes. With that setup, you´re really locked in one place and cannot move more than a few inches. The one mike setup is far more interesting to watch, but it transports a certain old-time feel, which works well for some bands and not so well for others.

Not that I am looking for pyrotechnics in Bluegrass, mind you, but people come to a show to be entertained. Watching performers standing in one place and not connecting with the audience and moving only fingers and arms (the less the better, technically) for the whole show is NOT entertaining.

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## AlanN

> One thing that certainly limits the visual impact is the microphone thing, esp. when using individual mikes. With that setup, you´re really locked in one place and cannot move more than a few inches. The one mike setup is far more interesting to watch, but it transports a certain old-time feel, which works well for some bands and not so well for others.


I agree with that. One move you sometimes see is the JD Crowe thing that he has done down the the years on trios, which is the guitar man shifts right and faces stage left, the banjo swings around to the middle and mandolin faces stage right. It is/was very cool to watch, and hardly gets old.

When the BG Album Band was touring in the 80's, this was often done (ah, Tony, Doyle and JD - that stunk  )

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## Ted Lehmann

Showmanship on stage need not consist of Kiss-like makeup, outrageous behavior, or other silliness. OTOH, some groups communicate better with their audience than others while they purvey the music. The Del McCoury Band plays, and remains pretty serious, but Del himself encourages the audience to see his pride in his sons and his joy in the music. Goldwing Express, which engages in lots of tomfoolery leaves me cold. I keep thinking they ought to stay in Branson, where the audience doesn't understand them. Watching great mandolin pickers like Bibey, Steffey, Benson, and Thile concentrate on their work is often interesting. Rhonda Vincent's entire act is a show as well as a musical pleasure. Some bands, though, seem to think that they can line up and stand there playing the music, and the music will speak for itself. In my mind, they are mostly mistaken. Some form of genuine communication with the audience is necessary to create the chemistry that moves a performance from interesting to magical. Some bands sound better in their recordings, because in performance they are pretty wooden. Blue Moon Rising, for me, provides an example of this. In the end, showmanship is a matter of creating communication with an audience, drawing them in, capturing their attention, and selling the product in a genuine and engaging fashion. - Ted

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## JEStanek

To paraphrase... some acts have a stage presence for radio.

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## Jonathan Peck

> In the end, showmanship is a matter of creating communication with an audience, drawing them in, capturing their attention, and selling the product in a genuine and engaging fashion. - Ted


In the end, it's still showmanship selling to a very limited audience. It's very hard to think of bluegrass as a product...something that is created, packaged and marketed to sell to a wide audience. If that were the case, you'd hardly ever see an 'ugly' bluegrass musician.

Allison Krauss comes to mind. I can listen to her music and be impressed with the entire band, and I can look at her all day :Smile:  I don't think it's any coincidence that the most commercially sucessful bands also have a certain appeal that crooses over musical boundries. It's probably also no coincidence that BG music has limited audience appeal since it is primarily a male dominated genre.

In bluegrass, it's the music that connects with the audience. If you want to cross over into pop culture, you have to craft the product to appeal to young audiences...that is, you need to have sex appeal and be cool. Just look at modern country music. They've crafted a product that is young, fun and sexy. Most BG fans think achy breaky heart was a joke song, but it sold millions of CD's and enjoyed constant air play on television.

"selling the product in a genuine and engaging fashion" is what i want to see, but I don't think you'll see the IBMA awards televised anytime too soon. What if only bands with magnetic stage presence recieved record deals? It would drastically change our music would give us something else to complain about

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## Peter Hackman

> Originally Posted by  (Klaus Wutscher @ Oct. 16 2007, 04:59)
> 
> One thing that certainly limits the visual impact is the microphone thing, esp. when using individual mikes. With that setup, you´re really locked in one place and cannot move more than a few inches. The one mike setup is far more interesting to watch, but it transports a certain old-time feel, which works well for some bands and not so well for others.
> 
> 
> I agree with that. One move you sometimes see is the JD Crowe thing that he has done down the the years on trios, which is the guitar man shifts right and faces stage left, the banjo swings around to the middle and mandolin faces stage right. It is/was very cool to watch, and hardly gets old.
> 
> When the BG Album Band was touring in the 80's, this was often done (ah, Tony, Doyle and JD - that stunk # )


Ah, I remember seeing JD in Lexington, Ky. at a Holiday Inn (yes, a - there were three) in 1969. Doyle Lawson on mando, Bob Sloane on bass, I-forget-who on guitar. It reminded me a bit uf juggling.

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## Jim Broyles

> *Mandolin*
> Adam Steffey - 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
> Chris Thile - 2001
> Ronnie McCoury - 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000
> Sam Bush - 1990, 1991, 1992

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## cooper4205

> If people want to pay to see a spectacle, let them...there's plenty of it around these days to see.


It's in bluegrass, too!

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## sgarrity

I've seen pics of the Goldwing Express for years. Never heard them though. Not sure I need to......

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## AlanN

They're not half bad. All daddy does is chop, though.

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## Don Grieser

If they all weren't locked into the Indian thing, they could become the Village People of bluegrass.

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## Jonathan Peck

you can never start them to early.

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## Jonathan Peck

Making eye contact with the audience already

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## mandopete

Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout!

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## Big Joe

Proper uniforming does not require being Kiss or some other over the top rock group. Look at at couple of current groups. Del McCoury Band always dresses good and it sets them apart from the other groups. How about The Cherryholmes? They can put on the dog in costuming and it fits what they do and helps draw attention. Bill Monroe never showed up in ragged blue jeans and a t shirt and neither did any of his band members. 

I would rather have someone say "Wow, I had a great time!" than say "Man, they can pick!". Entertainment is serious business, but it is a business and when we fail to entertain the audience and capture their attention we have lost the battle. I've seen some great pickers that get so boring that no one cares to watch them. Too many are getting to be better on the album than on the stage...because you can shut them off.

We are musicians and we can become too focused on just the music. That is a natural thing for us, but for those who are not pickers (poor souls they may be) it is the show as a whole, not just the picking. If all you have to offer is picking, be sure there are a hundred others out there as good or better and able to entertain as well. 

I would just like to feel like what I paid for a ticket to a show was worth the money. I can hear very good picking for free any day I wish. I want to see a show. This may only be my opinion, but I'll bet it could easily be the same as many of the non pickers on the planet. Maybe the reason BG is not growing any faster is because it has forgot the "Show" part of show business. There are a few who are doing a great job, but lots more who are not.

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## Peter Hackman

Not the biggest issue in the world, but I would say that dressing for the occasion is a way of entering it - you're there, physically and mentally, and nowhere else.

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## dan@kins

I have a four piece group (soon to be 5) consisting of mandolin, guitar, banjo and fiddle (we're adding a bass player).

We play fiddle tunes, jug band tunes and old fingerstyle blues tunes adapted to our instrumentation.

We have always worn khakis, white button down shirt and a matching tie (usually red). We wear this no matter what venue we play. People really respond to it.

What I like about doing this the most is the uniformity. Its shows that we are unified, together. When we arrive at a gig there is no doubt we're together and little doubt that we're the band (we've been mistaken for waiters).

We work at being musically unified in our performances and I think its good to show it to the crowd through what we wear. 

Also given that all the music we play is old. I think our uniforms also make us seem old fashioned.

We play a lot of town squares and 'apple festivals' and when we play these venues a lot of times our audience is older. The older folks really like the way we present our band visually. We always get positive remarks from them.

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## mandopete

Dan and Joe are Spot On! It's just a nice touch when bluegrass bands consider more that just the playing as part of their entertainment package. Each band should have some sort "intentional" design and not appear like they are performing the same clothes that they wore on the ride from the last gig.

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## Jonathan Peck

> Dan and Joe are Spot On! #It's just a nice touch when bluegrass bands consider more that just the playing as part of their entertainment package. #


I think this is entertaining....Wilbur Hall on Fiddle

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## Crowder

I'm going to see Flamekeeper tonight. They were recognized as the Instrumental Band of the Year. I don't think anyone would consider them either pretty or commercial. The place I'll see them only holds about 100 people.

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## mandopete

> I think this is entertaining....Wilbur Hall on Fiddle


Yeah, but is it really bluegrass?

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