# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  New here, want more info about this Kalamazoo Mandolin

## Fishykiller

Hello, new here. I recently bought this old mandolin off ebay, and had some work done to make it playable. Will try to post before and after pictures. It is a Kalamazoo, and has the number 691 inside. I'd like to know more about it, but not sure how to track down info. I think it is early 1930's. It sounds good!

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## MikeEdgerton

That is a Kalamazoo KM-11 made by Gibson in the mid 30's (the first year or so). The next year they went to a different headstock shape. I don't have my books with me. I think it's a 35 or a 36, I'll check it when I get home tonight.

Here's a page out of a catalog for this model.

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Southshore26

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## Fishykiller

Thank you! It is so cool to think about how much play this mandolin has had, the wear on the neck and all...I hope I can do it justice and keep it going!

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## brunello97

Wow.  This is a coincidence.  I just bought a(nother) KM11 mandolin a few weeks back with the inside FON also of 691. (I'm not kidding.)

I had a back channel conversation with Joe Spann after checking out his book (the one I think Mike is referring to.)  Here is Joe's informative reply:

"Hello Mick,

Thanks for sending along the FON on your KM-11. I appreciate every contribution to the general knowledge. Beginning in 1931 Gibson recycled the FON numbers every year. Just another reason why Gibson is so confusing.

Your KM-11 FON (691) will only fit in the overall data if the instrument was built in 1934. In 1935 Gibson began using a letter suffix after the batch number. Your instrument had no letter suffix, therefore it pre-dates 1935. Gibson did not use batch 691 in 1931 or 1932, so that leaves only 1933 or 1934 as possibilities. Since we already know that batch 691 was a group of KG-11 in 1933, we are left with 1934 as the production year for your KM-11.

Joe Spann"

Mine sounds good, though I do think the later models with the increased neck break angle (am I describing that right) are even nicer.
Love the neck profile on the Kalamazoo mandolins as well.  Slice of pie to play.

Mick

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MikeEdgerton

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## Fishykiller

> Wow.  This is a coincidence.  I just bought a(nother) KM11 mandolin a few weeks back with the inside FON also of 691. (I'm not kidding.)
> 
> Mine sounds good, though I do think the later models with the increased neck break angle (am I describing that right) are even nicer.
> Love the neck profile on the Kalamazoo mandolins as well.  Slice of pie to play.
> 
> Mick


Well, I pulled out a flashlight to see the number better. I think it is 591, not 691. The eBay listing said it was 591, but when I looked in there it looked like a 6 to me so I just figured the listing had it wrong. The 5 is the most faded number.

Thank you!

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## brunello97

Well, that complicates things.  

Mike is right that the headstock changed on the KM11s.  When was that, Mike? '37? Or earlier? 

I checked in Joe Spann's book and the 591 FON doesn't show up in any year of the KM production.  Now that is not to say it is a "6" after all.  It just may be an FON that Joe hasn't documented yet. But it could be a 6..... Do a search for Joe here and send him a PM with your information. 

If Mike can remind us when Gibson went to the 'peaked roof' headstock on the KMs at least we can get an outside date on when yours was made.  Can you stick a camera in there and get a photo of the FON?

BTW, can't say I've ever seen that type of bridge on a Gibson mandolin. My '34 KM11 has a non-adjustable compensated bridge.  Unless I'm wrong, this appears to be a replacement.

Mick

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## MikeEdgerton

In 1936 Factory Order Number 590 and 592 are listed. 591 is not. I don't see it in 1935 either but there are close FON's. I was under the impression that Joe's list, although expansive was not complete. According to the Gruhn book the KM-11 was introduced in 1935 with the flat top peghead shape and a non-adjustable bridge. In late 1936 they changed the headstock shape and added an adjustable bridge and a bound fingerboard. The KM-11 was discontinued in 1941. That has the flat peghead and the non-adjustable bridge. Assuming Gruhn has his information correct that mandolin was the first year of production into the first part of the second year of production or 1935-early 36.

I'm not sure that bridge is original but I can tell you that there is no room for an adjustable bridge on that mandolin, leading me to believe I am correct about the first year of manufacture argument.

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## MikeEdgerton

By the way, I wish I still had my KM-11. Same year as this one. It had the best neck of any mandolin I ever played.

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## brunello97

Thanks, Mike.  Joe's conversation with me has my FON 691 dated to 1934 or a year earlier than the Gruhn book.  Not sure what to make of the discrepancy by Joe's deductive logic viz the FONs makes sense to me.

At some point (1936 along with the other changes?) Gibson changed the neck angle which required the higher, assumedly adjustable bridge.  They inserted a thin shim under the fretboard extension over the body.  My 'newer' KM11 has that shim (and roof-peak headstock.)  The earlier ('34?) does not.

Yeah, I think Joe is still fleshing his FON data base out and adding information, which is why this mandolin is interesting.  Sure would like to have a gander at that number....

Never seen a Gibson with a bone saddle, though.  My early KM11 has a non-adjustable compensated bridge--lower and a bit rougher than on the early '10s Gibsons.  But it has the shallower neck angle. 

They are neat mandolins.

Mick

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## Timbofood

I had one of those in about 1972, second mandolin, first was a red harmony. I really liked that mandolin, should have never sold it!

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## Fishykiller

> By the way, I wish I still had my KM-11. Same year as this one. It had the best neck of any mandolin I ever played.


Ok, did my best to get some pictures. When I picked it up today, he said he had to replace the white bone part of the bridge, not the whole bridge (doesnt mean it wasnt replaced before I got it). Said he popped it out and put in an "old" bone bridge. (Are they really bone? Or did I misunderstand him?) Sorry if the pict with number is upside down...darn iphones seem to do that a lot on forums.

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## brunello97

Looks like 691 to me.... :Wink: 

Here's a shot of the FON from mine.  I've rotated your picture for comparison.

BTW, that's not a Gibson bridge.... Going to be a nice mandolin in any event.

Mick

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## Fishykiller

Well, Joe was quick to respond, he believes it is a 1933. 

Way cool!

Thank you all for your quick and helpful responses!

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## brunello97

Did you and Joe decide that you think that is a 591 instead of a 691?

Sure looks like a 6 in those comparative photos to me.  5s have a flat top: 5 vs 6

Mick

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## pfox14

Joe Spann's book has 3-digit FONs dating to 1933 and 1934, which I find very confusing. 691 shows up as a 1933 batch of KG-11 guitars, but no 691 listed for 1934. I don't think it's a 1933, because Gibson would not use FON 691 for 2 different batches - 1 mandolin & 1 guitar. The model KM (Kalamazoo Mandolin) as it was called when first introduced in 1933, became the KM-11 in 1934. Both years had the flat-top peghead shape, so it's a little difficult to pin down, but I'll say 1934.

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brunello97

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## Fishykiller

I think mine is 591, the vertical line on the left is straight, not curved like on your 6. The horizontal line at the top of the five does seem to be curved. If I can find my good camera, that I can make focus where I want, I'll take another picture. But that could take a while, I havent transferred photos off that camera in forever and will have to figure out how to again. Here is what Joe shared, 

"I suspect your KM-11 was produced in 1933. 

The batch number (591) has no letter suffix which means it was produced prior to 1935. 

Because it has only three digits it must have been produced after 1930.  

The years of 1931 and 1932 can be ruled out because the KM-11 wasn't introduced until 1933. 

This leaves only 1933 and 1934 as possibilities.

The known FON sequence for 1933 shows a large number of Kalamazoo-brand batches being produced in the 590's.

Therefore, I believe your KM-11 mandolin was manufactured by Gibson in 1933, the first year of production for the Kalamazoo-brand instruments.

Joe Spann"

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## Fishykiller

I simply referred Joe to this thread to look at the pictures, since I didnt see a way to attach them in the message. I didnt say the FON in my message, so hopefully when he looked at this thread he also saw the 691 vs. 591 discussion. 

While I would like to know for sure which it is, since I plan to keep it and play it, knowing for sure isnt critical. I guess it would be should I decide to sell it.

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## JeffD

This place is so cool.

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## Fishykiller

It is!

Ok...so how do I put a strap on this without the button on the end? Is that something I should add?

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## Timbofood

I ran a leather bootlace under the tailpiece, there is a little "hump" just below the cover. Well, there was on mine. 
Sure look like a 691 to me.

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## Southshore26

> This place is so cool.


Completely agree.... just being able to read about something that was built over 80 years ago and is still being loved and enjoyed is a nice change from most things these days. The knowledge here is unbelievable.

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## MikeEdgerton

> I ran a leather bootlace under the tailpiece, there is a little "hump" just below the cover. Well, there was on mine. 
> Sure look like a 691 to me.


So did I. Pictures *here* of how I attached straps to two different A's with the Waverly Cloud tailpiece.

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## Timbofood

Much better than drilling holes in something that never had one. I knew there was something about you Mke!

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MikeEdgerton

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## Fishykiller

Thanks for that link, just using turkey trussing string for a strap at the moment...but it works. Been to two jams in two days with it, felt like I was getting the hang of it tonight. It's been exactly 5 weeks since I started playing a mandolin. This site has been most helpful!

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## pfox14

Post a sound clip. That would be cool.

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## pfox14

Here's the first known Kalamzoo sales flyer from 1933. As you can see, all of the Kals didn't have model numbers yet, just "Kalamazoo Mandolin". It wasn't until 1934, that it became the KM-11

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brunello97

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## BradKlein

> That is a Kalamazoo KM-11 made by Gibson in the mid 30's (the first year or so). The next year they went to a different headstock shape. I don't have my books with me. I think it's a 35 or a 36, I'll check it when I get home tonight.
> 
> Here's a page out of a catalog for this model.


Now that we have the date, I'm more interested in the bracing details. Does that ad say (for the KM-11), "Top and back arched with a new areo-arch method? or perhaps 'arco-arch' method" I presume this is a slight arch bent over a curved lateral brace somewhere near the bridge? And is the back braced? And how flat or arched are the surfaces 80 years later?

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## MikeEdgerton

The KM-11 was flat as far as I could see front and back. The KM-21 was arched with a pressed top and back and the back was braced in the same manner as the later A-40's.

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BradKlein

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## brunello97

Brad, my '34 KM11 is pretty well near dead-flat (as have been the other KMs I have owned.) Well, some have been a bit _concave.
_  The top on the '34 is actually in great shape, still almost dead level.

(I'm still seeing the OP's FON as a 691--as in also a '34--but that argument might be moot now.)

Looking at my '34, the back is indeed braced with a single brace almost exactly in the middle of the back.  This one has a single piece of mahogany for the back (as was typical) and is uncracked, though I have seen many with some type of cracking.

The top is braced with a 'u' shaped series of braces just south of the soundhole.  The ends of the 'u' flare out a bit to the sides of the soundhole and run all the way to the sides.  

I've had the back off on a later KM11 (peaked-roof headstock) and the bracing was the same on that one, front and back.  That one has a SN but not a visible FON.  From Joe Spann's book the DK prefix on the SN suggests it is from '38.

No second tier of bracing on that one originally, though I added one to shore up a completely collapsed top.  That failure was _epic_.  The added brace cut out some volume but tightened up the tone in a very nice way, I think.

Never have played a KM21, but one of those (and an A50) are on my MAS list.

Mick

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BradKlein

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## Fishykiller

I have a video of me playing and singing a song on this mandolin, and then my new The Loar. Not sure I'm ready to share that here! But, I went by my friends house and had him play some stuff on it. He said I got incredibly lucky. Great neck true all the way up. He was sure it wouldnt be worth the postage I paid buying it sight unseen off eBay. Here he is playing a couple snippets.  Or the attachments owuld be here...I shot video with an iphone 5....tried to upload and it seemed to be working (said compressing video) but then nothing was there. Anyone know what I'm doing wrong?

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## pfox14

You should upload it to YouTube, then post a link.

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## Fishykiller

Ok, that really stretched me...getting a youtube account and all. Here is the link, hope it works. Sorry for the background noise, kids are loud. 

http://youtu.be/yL6T5gJZlZ8

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## pfox14

> Ok, that really stretched me...getting a youtube account and all. Here is the link, hope it works. Sorry for the background noise, kids are loud. 
> 
> http://youtu.be/yL6T5gJZlZ8


Sweet pickin' there Fishy. That KM-11 sounds wonderful. Not bad for a mandolin that originally cost $12.50. It is my strong opinion that the Kalamazoo brand saved Gibson from going out of business in the Depression. The Kals were a high quality product for a very reasonable price. They were superior to any of the less expensive mandolins made by companies like Harmony, Kay, Regal, etc. Because we have no shipping records for 1933-34, we don't know how many of these were made, but between 1935-40, Gibson sold 2114 KM-11s and 1442 KM-21s. These numbers far exceed any of the Gibson-branded instruments for the same time period.

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## MikeEdgerton

They also allowed Gibson to use standard parts they had laying around the factory to create their second line instruments. I had a second line guitar several years ago that was built in the 30's that had a bridge I last saw used in the 20's. Kind of like sweeping the shop floor for parts. Found money. This coupled with the ability to sell Kalamazoo instruments in non-Gibson dealers most certainly helped keep them alive.

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## brunello97

> Sweet pickin' there Fishy. That KM-11 sounds wonderful. Not bad for a mandolin that originally cost $12.50. It is my strong opinion that the Kalamazoo brand saved Gibson from going out of business in the Depression. The Kals were a high quality product for a very reasonable price. They were superior to any of the less expensive mandolins made by companies like Harmony, Kay, Regal, etc. Because we have no shipping records for 1933-34, we don't know how many of these were made, but between 1935-40, Gibson sold 2114 KM-11s and 1442 KM-21s. These numbers far exceed any of the Gibson-branded instruments for the same time period.


Thanks, Paul, for that overview.  Makes me dig my KMs even more.   :Wink:   I find the whole '30s Gibson output fascinating: the Kalamazoos, the Orioles, Cromwells, etc.

Mick

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## Fishykiller

For the record, that's my friend playing, not me...I'm still a newb, but learning!

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## Ginridge

These are great mandolins.  I have one myself that I received as a wedding present many years ago, FON 719.  Mine doesn't have a tailpiece cover but does have a fixed wooden compensated bridge that I suspect is original.  Is that a Waverly "cloud" cover plate?

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## dustyamps

I treasure my FON 719 KM also.  I believe all the early KM11's had a cloud tailpiece.  Enjoy your new Kalamazoo fisher

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## Fishykiller

Here is a picture of tailpiece.

I am loving this mandolin! Thank you again for all the great info.

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## Timbofood

Like I said earlier, I wish I had never sold mine!
That's just about how I did my strap, it'll be fine.

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...I believe all the early KM11's had a cloud tailpiece...


That is correct, all KM-11's had a Waverly cloud tailpiece.

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