# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  picking a jig- dud-udu, or dud-dud ?

## chriss

I've always picked jigs "dud-udu" - seemed faster, smoother + easier when I was learning.  Altho getting a decent emphasis on the upstroke took some getting used to, that was easier than making the 2 "downs" in "dud-dud" work right- on rhythm and smooth.

I've run across a couple things + people recently saying they prefer the sound and/or rhythm they get using "dud-dud", even tho it might have taken a while to learn it and get it smooth.

So I'm interested in getting some idea of how many people use which one?

And also, hearing from anybody who has tried switching from "dud-udu" to "dud-dud"...
  - did you SUCCEED? or was it like trying to quit smoking or write with your left hand ... tried but never broke the habit?
  - if you DID succeed- how long before you felt "settled down" with the new picking pattern?
  - and is it worth it in the end- are you happier with the sound and the rhythm?

thx
Chris

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## Jill McAuley

I'm firmly in the DUD DUD camp when it comes to playing jigs - when I first started out playing the tenor banjo back home, I was trying to teach meself and was playing DUD UDU, but then I started taking lessons from Angelina Carberry, who encouraged me to play DUD DUD. I have to say that I'd no problem adjusting to this and it felt quite natural to play jigs that way, as it really lent itself to the inherent feel of jigs, at least for me it did - now I couldn't imagine playing a jig DUD UDU. Enda Scahill, in his tenor banjo tutor, mentions that either method will work, with DUD DUD giving you a  more rhythmic feel and DUD UDU a more lyrical feel. Kieran Hanrahan is a DUD UDU advocate. Bottom line - do what works for you and what's most comfortable. If you're happy with your current method then stick with it I'd say.

Cheers,
Jill

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## JeffD

Yea the important thing is getting the emphasis right. 

I just checked, and I do Dud Udu Dud Udu. One advantage is that it frees me up if there is a run of quick notes to be done dudu

I have to check because I don't think about it. In fact I screw it up if I think about it.

Now if I am doing a back up rhythm strum, I noticed I sometimes do something like DDU DDU, but I don't tend to do that with melody.

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## Brent Hutto

I have been advised to work at getting my DUD UDU to be smooth, even and up to speed and learn to emphasize any given note within a DUD or UDU triple when I need to. Once that is something I can do well, if I want to learn DUD DUD as an alternative it's always good to have other options available. But doing DUD DUD is no substitute for being able to make DUD UDU or another other DUDUDUDU pattern sound good.

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## Ronny

When I play jigs on bodhran, I play Dud Udu. When I play jigs on mandolin, I play Dud Dud.
The important thing is to feel the triplets. The Music is important, not the way to reach it...

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## Hessian

I too think that it doesn't really matter wich pattern you use as long as you know and feel what a jig is. As for the second part of your question- I did change from DUD UDU (which I played happily for a couple of years) to DUD DUD because I read on the Internet that Mick Moloney strongly recommends DUD DUD. It took me some time to change, especially for the tunes I knew for a long time, but in the end it wasn't a real problem (like writing with your left hand) and DUD DUD now feels natural to me. But I don't think it changed my playing and/or sound very much (terrible then, clumsy now). It might have made the triplet- ornamentation a bit easier for me though.
Ronny, funnily enough I play the Bodhran with DUD UDU and seem not to be able to change that no matter what!

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## danb

I'm a big believe in DDU DDU. I have found that folks get similar results out of DUD DUD, but my main advice is "don't use DUD UDU". You'll lose that all-important pulse and rhythm that comes from the broken pickstroke.

On the other side of the coin for balance's sake, I have seen folks use DUD UDU successfully- all I can say is it's twice as hard and you end up succeeding IN SPTE of your technique rather than because of it.

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## Avi Ziv

I use DUD DUD the vast majority of the time. But occasionally I'll find myself throwing in a UDU where it wants to be and where it sounds good. I don't fight my technique in those rare instances. I just let it be.

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## foldedpath

I use DUD,DUD because the jig pulse flows naturally from the pattern, instead of requiring emphasis from the player in a straight alternating pattern. The DUD,DUD pattern also feels like a more consistent launching and recovery point for treble ornaments, although I haven't thought too hard about that (thinking messes up my picking!). I've heard people play treble ornaments with alternate picking, so maybe it's just what you're used to.

As DanB and others said, the main thing is to honor the pulse of the dance, whether it's this pattern or any other. If the pulse isn't there, then you're not playing a jig.

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## Jill McAuley

> I have been advised to work at getting my DUD UDU to be smooth, even and up to speed and learn to emphasize any given note within a DUD or UDU triple when I need to. Once that is something I can do well, if I want to learn DUD DUD as an alternative it's always good to have other options available. But doing DUD DUD is no substitute for being able to make DUD UDU or another other DUDUDUDU pattern sound good.


I'm kind of not understanding your phrase "..doing DUD DUD is no substitute for being able to make DUD UDU or another other DUDUDUDU pattern sound good...."  Some of the top trad tenor banjo/mandolin players advocate DUD DUD and I don't think it's because the "can't" do DUD UDU or DUDUDUDU - first off, we're talking about jigs here, so DUDUDUDU isn't really on the table as that's not a picking pattern you'd want to use to play jigs - unless you want them to sound like reels. I'm also interested to read the words "smooth" and "even" used in reference to DUD UDU - to my ears if you're playing a jig and your picking patterns sounds *too* smooth and even, then where is the emphasis that makes a jig a jig in the first place?  Awhile back a pal of mine was trying to teach herself the mandolin - she found some clip of a fella giving "irish music lessons" on Youtube - in this particular clip he was playing "The Irish Washerwoman" - he was playing DUD UDU but so fast, smooth and evenly that it basically sounded like DUDUDUDU - zero emphasis to be found anywhere, so needless to say it didn't sound like a jig at all. I told my pal to stop using that fella's "lessons" and instead check out vids on youtube by Mark Conyard or the cafe's own Dick Glasgow (Ptarmi). 

One thing I notice in a lot of folk who are new to playing irish trad music is their difficulty in making jigs sound like jigs - if we took a straw poll I wonder how many of those same folk were using DUD UDU as their picking pattern of choice? I'm not saying you can't make a jig sound like a jig using that pattern, but I think for folks starting out playing trad it's likely a wee bit easier for them to instill that jig emphasis by using DUD DUD.

Cheers,
Jill

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## Ed Goist

This is a very timely thread for me as I just started working on Jigs for the first time this week.
So, not much useful to add.
I will say that based on Jill's recommendation I am playing them DUD DUD and I can say that this is very intuitive to me because it allows me to conceptualize each triplet as a "unit" which is always played the same. (If that makes any sense).
Also, as soon as I develop even respectable speed on a Jig, the wife (a non-musician) immediately notes: _"Hey, that's an Irish Jig, isn't it?"_... So, they must sound somewhat like jigs.

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## Brent Hutto

Jill,

I'm simply talking about precedence in a beginner's journey of learning to use the right hand effectively. Of course you don't play DUD DUD because you can't play DUDUDU effectively. But now in my fifth month of learning mandolin, I can't even play a simple DUDUDU pattern and make the D's and U's the same loudness. So that takes precendence. 

My teacher's advice was basically to concentrate on getting the simplest possible picking pattern to work properly, first. Then if I'm not satisfied with how jigs in particular sound it might be useful to vary that DUDUDU into Dud Udu Dud Udu until I can get that pattern to work. Then maybe try DUD DUD and see how I like that. All are useful patterns (and eventually DDU DDU or whatever you might need) but it does me no good to use a crappy, random sounding DUDUDUDUD some times and then switch to a crappy sounding DUD DUD for jigs.

Does that make sense? My this week's assignment is to record myself playing DUD UDU with every note the same. Then I'll move on to recording myself playing Dud Udu with those two beats stronger, then dUd uDu, then duD udU all of which may take me a month or a year or a lifetime for all I know. So far DUDUDU all the same sounds great...until I do it into the microphone and I hear what I'm really doing which like Du...du...dUdUDUDU...Dudu...duDu...du...kind of like Porky Pig playing a jig. :Mad:  That's all folks!

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## Vigee

I play D-- D--.  That is to say, I make sure that I can hit to the downstroke on the beat when required.  I find DUD DUD to be a bit slavish, rather limiting one to an Irish jig whenever playing in 6/8 (and not necessarily useful playing six-huits and montagnardes).  I also found, personally, that with DUD DUD I tended to prefer to pick each note rather than find other methods to change notes.  Someone here pointed out that more experienced players will find a unique pattern for each jig.  I sort of do the same, starting out with DUD DUD until I get a better handle of the melody and feel.

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## John Flynn

Well, I've been working on DUD DUD for a while, but I am about to give up on it. I find the concept is holding me back rather than empowering me. I can keep up at sessions with DUD UDU. I fall off the track with DUD DUD. 

I do have a couple of counter points. It's already been pointed out that Enda Scahill's book says you can do it either way. Gerry O'Connor's "Complete..." book doesn't make a deal out of it one way or another. It got discussed on The Irish Tenor Banjo site and two comments struck me: One was that the most important thing is to emphasize the first note of each measure more than the other notes of the measure. If you are downstroking the first and fourth notes, it is hard to get a lesser emphasis on that fourth note. So that guy prefers DUD UDU, but he emphasizes the "up" on that fourth note, giving it a little more emphasis, but not as much as the first. The other comment I liked was to the effect, "If you have to think about your pick direction at session speeds, you're thinking about the wrong thing." In other words, just play. 

But I'm sure DUD DUD is probably better. I can hear how it is technically better. However, at a session with 20 people, me not emphasizing the fourth beat is probably not a big deal. Me not keeping up with the tune is. So do I keep investing precious practice time on something that I don't seem to be getting anywhere with, or do I invest that time in getting tunes up to speed?

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## EdSherry

I started out straight alternating picking (Dud Udu), and played jigs that way for years, figuring that I could always accent the "U" stroke on beat four.  It sounded OK, but a while back I made the conscious effort to work on Dud Dud.  

It took about a year for Dud Dud to become "second nature" (after playing the other way for a dozen years at sessions), but I find that the change has helped me to get a bit more "drive" to the tunes.   

I still use Dud Udu on some tunes, when it "feels" more right for the particular tune than Dud Dud, but have largely switched over.   I willl sometimes fall back on Dud Udu when the tempos get faster.

I fully agree that what matters is the "feel."  Speed will come with time.  

I haven't tried Dan B's Ddu Ddu yet; maybe that will be the next thing to investigate.

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## Brent Hutto

Of course for some of us "tempos get faster" means anything above 85bpm!

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## Jill McAuley

> Jill,
> 
> I'm simply talking about precedence in a beginner's journey of learning to use the right hand effectively. Of course you don't play DUD DUD because you can't play DUDUDU effectively. But now in my fifth month of learning mandolin, I can't even play a simple DUDUDU pattern and make the D's and U's the same loudness. So that takes precendence. 
> 
> My teacher's advice was basically to concentrate on getting the simplest possible picking pattern to work properly, first. Then if I'm not satisfied with how jigs in particular sound it might be useful to vary that DUDUDU into Dud Udu Dud Udu until I can get that pattern to work. Then maybe try DUD DUD and see how I like that. All are useful patterns (and eventually DDU DDU or whatever you might need) but it does me no good to use a crappy, random sounding DUDUDUDUD some times and then switch to a crappy sounding DUD DUD for jigs.
> 
> Does that make sense? My this week's assignment is to record myself playing DUD UDU with every note the same. Then I'll move on to recording myself playing Dud Udu with those two beats stronger, then dUd uDu, then duD udU all of which may take me a month or a year or a lifetime for all I know. So far DUDUDU all the same sounds great...until I do it into the microphone and I hear what I'm really doing which like Du...du...dUdUDUDU...Dudu...duDu...du...kind of like Porky Pig playing a jig. That's all folks!


I understand your point in your first paragraph - as a matter of fact Enda Scahill's banjo tutor covers reels first specifically because Enda feels that "...once you can pick reels correctly then jigs are a piece of cake..." One of the best pieces of advice I was ever given starting out was to listen to loads and loads of jigs so as to be able to internalize the feel of them - once that happens then whatever picking pattern of choice you go with kind of doesn't matter.

Cheers,
Jill

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## Bernie Daniel

> ....Enda Scahill, in his tenor banjo tutor, mentions that either method will work, with DUD DUD giving you a  more rhythmic feel and DUD UDU a more lyrical feel. Kieran Hanrahan is a DUD UDU advocate. Bottom line - do what works for you and what's most comfortable. If you're happy with your current method then stick with it I'd say.  Cheers,
> Jill


Jill that is the best summary of that topic I have seen.  The idea of rhythmic versus lyrical -- it is a concept I more or less felt, but didn't really realize it.  Now I do.  

I think Irish trad music is mostly the home for the DUD DUD idea?  

Somewhere there is an instructional video by Chris Thiele where he (if I recall correctly) states *without exception, always alternate the pick direction* othewise you have wasted motion.  

One of those personal playing decisions -- I always try to alternate because when I don't I get inconsistent results.  (actually even MORE inconsistent results truth be known).

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## Brent Hutto

My teacher seems to generally favor the "always alternate" although perhaps not as absolutely as the statement from Chris Thile. But it is definitely from a wasted motion perspective. What your top clean speed might be, doesn't it almost have to be slightly slower with DUD DUD than with DUD UDU? 

Of course if you have enough speed to play a dance at 130bpm either way I suppose the theoretical ability to play even faster with DUD UDU is no help anyway. My own top speed for a jig at the moment is maybe 100bpm on a good day, more comfortably around 95bpm. Even if DUD DUD slows me down by a few percent that's speed I can afford to lose.

I think I can totally buy the "more lyrical" versus "more rhythmic" idea, too. And for my own part, I aspire to as much lyricism as possible in almost anything I might play. Then again, at the moment I aspire to play reasonably fast DUDUDU without sounding like a centipede with a wooden leg. I hope my constant chiming-in (as a total beginner) is not too distracting from the higher-level conversation taking place...

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## Jim Bevan

Ya, DUD DUD fer sure -- gives a real snap to the third note, but just to mix it up  :Smile: 
the person who taught me the most about Irish music (well, really all she gave me was a hip repertoire and a level of professionalism above the standard session plateau), Chilean whistle-player Francisca Sanchez, played duos for years in Galway with an Irish guitarist who plays DUD UDU (there's a recent video of the two of them on Colin Goldie's website) -- he's Irish, he sure sounds authentic enough...

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## Jesse Harmon

This is also timely for me as I am working on Irish songs of all variety as a beginner mando player.  I learned flatpicking with book called Melodic Rhythms for guitar that taught picking up on the upbeat and down on the down beat pretty much consistently.  The main thing is pick control first and then I think you are able to do what you want in any anomaly that you want to do differently.  The up on the up beat has always kept me grounded in the music even when it is more complex and I just like the feel of it.  I haven't read through that book with the mando yet but I am going to soon to see if it will work.

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## foldedpath

Just touching on a few points raised here:




> I play D-- D--.  That is to say, I make sure that I can hit to the downstroke on the beat when required.  I find DUD DUD to be a bit slavish, rather limiting one to an Irish jig whenever playing in 6/8 (and not necessarily useful playing six-huits and montagnardes).


A preference for DUD,DUD doesn't necessarily mean a rigid pattern. I think most of us who use that approach consider it just a general framework, where each specific tune might require moving out of that pattern for a bit, then coming back. An Irish fiddler never uses a rigid bowing pattern for playing this music, and a good mandolin player won't be too rigid about the pattern either. 

I was thinking about this while running a few jigs yesterday, looking at what I actually do vs. the "theory." I'm really all over the place in terms of pattern, depending on the tune. Some jigs are fairly simple and it's mainly DUD,DUD, with others that's more of a tendency than a full description of the picking pattern.




> I think Irish trad music is mostly the home for the DUD DUD idea?


Well, make the upstroke silent and you have a nice blues shuffle.  :Cool:  




> My teacher seems to generally favor the "always alternate" although perhaps not as absolutely as the statement from Chris Thile. But it is definitely from a wasted motion perspective. What your top clean speed might be, doesn't it almost have to be slightly slower with DUD DUD than with DUD UDU?


Top speed usually isn't an issue with jigs (except for ornamentation, which is a whole other subject). If you're playing Irish music then you're probably also playing reels, which will almost always be at a faster tempo. That's where you might want to focus on picking efficiency. Even with reels, this music seldom approaches Bluegrass tempos. With jigs, you have the luxury of a slower tempo where you can focus on finding the pulse. 

The huge variety of dance rhythms is one of the things that makes Irish/Scottish music very different from Bluegrass and OldTime music -- all those reels, jigs, slip jigs, slides, polkas, mazurkas, strathspeys, marches, and so on. Using the same picking approach for everything, runs a risk of flattening them out, and losing the distinct pulse of each dance form. 

That's what much of this discussion about DUD,DUD or DDU, DDU vs. DUD,UDU is all about. You can impose the dance pulse on a strictly alternating picking style, but it's more of an intellectual exercise, compared to a pulse that flows more naturally from the picking pattern. 

From my own experience, I find getting the right rhythm pulse for a reel, and keeping the distinct flavor of a hornpipe vs. a reel,  is one of the hardest things to do. You get no automatic help from the neutral, alternate picking pattern used on those dance rhythms, like you do with DUD,DUD or DDU,DDU for a jig.




> Of course if you have enough speed to play a dance at 130bpm either way I suppose the theoretical ability to play even faster with DUD UDU is no help anyway. My own top speed for a jig at the moment is maybe 100bpm on a good day, more comfortably around 95bpm. Even if DUD DUD slows me down by a few percent that's speed I can afford to lose.


Don't worry so much about speed. You can't force that. It comes naturally over time, with enough hours spent in the woodshed. Working on getting the pulse of the dance rhythms can be done at any speed, and with any approach to picking patterns. Some are just easier patterns than others.
 :Wink:

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## Brent Hutto

Today I've been just clocking away at doing DUDUDUDUDUDUDUDU until it sounds even. Then playing back the recording and finding out it isn't so even after all. Repeat as needed.

Speaking of speed, though, after 20-30 minutes of DUDUDUDU practice either on a single note or on a simple, repeated short pattern I notice that I can just turn around and rip through a major scale or some two-octave arpeggios at half again my usual top speed. Which tells me that a lot of what I've thought was left-hand slowness is in fact right-hand sloppiness making the left-hand seem slow!

Maybe the old cliche is true...it really is all about the right hand.

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## Vigee

> A preference for DUD,DUD doesn't necessarily mean a rigid pattern. I think most of us who use that approach consider it just a general framework, where each specific tune might require moving out of that pattern for a bit, then coming back. An Irish fiddler never uses a rigid bowing pattern for playing this music, and a good mandolin player won't be too rigid about the pattern either.


Of course.  However, I think some players can be a bit deaf to how a given tune is moving, missing opportunities to shift from more rhythmic to more melodic playing, or playing with the different emphases in a tune.  Indeed, there are really two interrelated issues in these discussions about jig picking: how one plays a jig and developing awareness and control over one's picking.  

There are a few odd patterns that I find useful to practice:

UUU DDD 
DDD DUD
UDU DUD (I'm hitting two notes with the first stroke, but using the upstroke to emphasize the higher one)

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## JeffD

> I'm not saying you can't make a jig sound like a jig using that pattern, but I think for folks starting out playing trad it's likely a wee bit easier for them to instill that jig emphasis by using DUD DUD.


That or DDU DDU, but I agree with your point.

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## Dagger Gordon

This question reappears about every year or two, and generally produces very similar comments.

I once went to a workshop with American flatpicking guitarist Steve Kaufman, who (like the above advice from Chris Thile) insisted that you should always play alternate DUDU etc.  However, he isn't often playing jigs.

On his own Flatpik Forum, I found a question regarding how he would play jigs.  It turned out he did indeed deviate from his usual DUDU advice:

Question to Steve Kaufman:

"I have a question concerning the playing of multiple triplets. Should I start each set of triplets with a down pick? Or should I just keep alternating so the first set is a down and the beginning of the second set is an up and so forth? In other words, the latter is keeping a strict up and down pattern throughout. Thanks."

Steve's answer:


"Triplets are a different kind of beast. If they are slow enough you would play them D-U-D D-U-D D-U-D D-U-D
If they are too fast for this you must play them
D-U-D U-D-U D-U-D U-D-U and you have to accent or really hit harder the first of each triplet even though it is an up swing.
They have to have the DA da da DA da da DA da da DA da da sound.
Hope this helps!
Steve K              "

Quite a good reply, I thought.

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## Brent Hutto

Dagger,

That quote from Kaufman is the same as the advice I received from my own teacher soon after I started lessons, although with a slight inversion. I was told you can do an effective jig by accenting the proper strokes in a DUD UDU pattern at any speed. And that DUD DUD was a special pattern to use for added emphasis at slower tempos. Same advice just stated in the opposite order.

The general flow of this thread has been somewhat disparaging of the idea Kaufman states as "...accent or really hit harder the first of each triplet even though it is an up swing". But in fact, with sufficient skill and practice I believe that approach can produce rhythmic emphasis of a very fine quality. But DUD DUD does still have its own sound.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Dagger,
> 
> That quote from Kaufman is the same as the advice I received from my own teacher soon after I started lessons, although with a slight inversion. I was told you can do an effective jig by accenting the proper strokes in a DUD UDU pattern at any speed. And that DUD DUD was a special pattern to use for added emphasis at slower tempos. Same advice just stated in the opposite order.
> 
> The general flow of this thread has been somewhat disparaging of the idea Kaufman states as "...accent or really hit harder the first of each triplet even though it is an up swing". But in fact, with sufficient skill and practice I believe that approach can produce rhythmic emphasis of a very fine quality. But DUD DUD does still have its own sound.


Like Dagger says this exact topic comes up again and again and since nothing has changed the very same pro's and con's are advanced and parried every time.  (Is this related to insanity - i.e., 
doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?  Maybe not.)

Any I have come to think of it this way.  All music has rules and traditions.  

Bluegrass players do not generally question how Bill Monroe played chop chords in BG (and live very long that is).   

Celtic traditional music started in the Celtic cultures and they must have had their own Monroe-like figures who decided that way to play the jigs they invented was DUD DUD.  So, if you want to play traditional Celtic music then that is how it is done. 

If you want to do it different that's the individual's personal call but then it is not "right".  Nothing wrong or illegal about being wrong!   :Laughing: 

But I don't see why people question the methods/techniques of folks who invented and grew up playing traditional Celtic music?  Anyway that is just my opinion that I have come to after many of these threads.  

That said I don't do DUD DUD because I get confused -- but picking patterns -- considering all my other faults are neither here nor there!   :Smile:

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## Brent Hutto

Bernie,

Well there is the slight wrinkle that fiddles and bagpipes don't have a pick. So a jig played by a fiddler or that matter a pipe march did not originate with any picking pattern at all!

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## Bernie Daniel

> Bernie,
> 
> Well there is the slight wrinkle that fiddles and bagpipes don't have a pick. So a jig played by a fiddler or that matter a pipe march did not originate with any picking pattern at all!


True -- but then who KNOWS what those wind makers argue about! I do think the fiddlers debate all kind of issues related to the right way to bow these tunes 

But as noted these minor details on picking patterns are small potatoes in the plethora my mandolin playing maladies.    :Laughing:

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## Brent Hutto

Hey, if you want picking patterns to sound like small potatoes just get fiddlers started talking about bowing on Scottish tunes. Then try to get them stopped talking about it. What a nightmare, I doubt a lifetime is long enough to learn how to use a bow correctly on that stuff. At least mine isn't.

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## Jill McAuley

Well the proof in the pudding is the person's actual playing at the end of the day - I'm sure there are folk out there who could murder DUD DUD and manage to make a jig *not* sound like a jig, just as there are folk doing the same with DUD UDU etc. I'm not concerned about what someone's picking pattern of choice is - what I'm interested in is whether or not the music they're playing actually _sounds_ like trad music! Janey mack, play with your teeth Jimi Hendrix style for all I care and as long as it sounds like a jig you're alright in my book!

Cheers,
Jill

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## Ed Goist

Well, here's the DUD DUD in action by a total newbie to jigs.
Been working on them for about a week, and I must say, they feel pretty intuitive to me...DUD DUD strokes, along with a continual _ONE, two, three, ONE, two, three_ going on in the head as I'm playing.
Here is one of my favorites so far.
Sorry for the couple of speed bumps along the way, and the audio isn't the greatest (_I need a new webcam, any suggestions?_)

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## Jill McAuley

Well done to you sir! And weren't you only after saying in another thread that you didn't think you'd post clips for awhile - glad you thought better of it! As for the webcam question, if it was me, I'd go for a Flip camera or the Zoom Q3 HD - I've a webcam and so-so audio and poor synchronization seem to be par for the course I'm afraid - my next purchase is going to be the Q3!

Cheers,
Jill

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## Ed Goist

Jill, thanks very much. 
After I was griping about the webcam this afternoon, my daughter worked with me to adjust some of the microphone settings on the computer's internal microphone, and we got things at least usable. 
Can one get immediate playback/preview & delete capabilities with the flip camera and/or the Zoom?...I'm along way from being a "one take player"  :Smile: 
Thanks again for the kind words, much appreciated.
...Still much work to do.  :Smile:

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## John Flynn

Ed, great job. That sounded really nice. I will be interested to follow your progress as you get to session speeds. I hope you let us know, it may provide some inspiration. 

I clocked you at about 85 BPM on that. In the sessions I go to, that would get played at 130 minimum, sometimes up to 150. That has been my problem with DUD DUD. I practice with a metronome and can do DUD DUD up to about 96 BPM. But I hit a "wall" somewhere after that, depending on the tune. I can practice and practice and not break through it. Sometimes I practice and lose ground! But with DUD UDU I can get to sessions speeds with a reasonable amount of practice. 

My dilemma is: Do I spend who knows how long "re-tooling" my picking pattern, all the while not being able to play jigs at sessions, or do I get up to session speeds in a reasonable amount of time, all the while further ingraining my alternate picking pattern?

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## Brent Hutto

> My dilemma is: Do I spend who knows how long "re-tooling" my picking pattern, all the while not being able to play jigs at sessions, or do I get up to session speeds in a reasonable amount of time, all the while further ingraining my alternate picking pattern?


From his earlier-quoted comment it sounds like Chris Thile chose your latter option. Lord knows he can play fast but apparently he still doesn't want to slow down and DUD DUD.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Ed, great job. That sounded really nice. I will be interested to follow your progress as you get to session speeds. I hope you let us know, it may provide some inspiration. 
> 
> I clocked you at about 85 BPM on that. In the sessions I go to, that would get played at 130 minimum, sometimes up to 150. That has been my problem with DUD DUD. I practice with a metronome and can do DUD DUD up to about 96 BPM. But I hit a "wall" somewhere after that, depending on the tune. I can practice and practice and not break through it. Sometimes I practice and lose ground! But with DUD UDU I can get to sessions speeds with a reasonable amount of practice. 
> 
> My dilemma is: Do I spend who knows how long "re-tooling" my picking pattern, all the while not being able to play jigs at sessions, or do I get up to session speeds in a reasonable amount of time, all the while further ingraining my alternate picking pattern?


Well I am not the best person to give advice here that is for sure.  But I've thought about it and I've concluded that I won't worry about it as I expect I will never play at the Comhaltas Convention.  I try to play all kinds of music so I don't change my picking patterns but endeavor to get the best sound I can with essentially alternate picking on everything I play.

----------


## Jill McAuley

> Jill, thanks very much. 
> After I was griping about the webcam this afternoon, my daughter worked with me to adjust some of the microphone settings on the computer's internal microphone, and we got things at least usable. 
> Can one get immediate playback/preview & delete capabilities with the flip camera and/or the Zoom?...I'm along way from being a "one take player" 
> Thanks again for the kind words, much appreciated.
> ...Still much work to do.


You can definitely playback and delete immediately with the Flip cam, not sure about the specs on the Q3 but I'd assume it to be similar, as most of those devices seem to work from a similar template as regards basic options. 

Cheers,
Jill

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## Ed Goist

Jill, thanks for the info...Looks like a rare shopping trip (to Best Buy) is in order.
Another question, how does one know the shot is well framed on the flip when working alone? It appears that the shot perspective can only be seen from a user behind the camera.
(Oh, and Jill, I'm quite impressed you are posting at 6:18 am your time.)

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## Ed Goist

> Ed, great job. That sounded really nice. I will be interested to follow your progress as you get to session speeds. I hope you let us know, it may provide some inspiration. 
> I clocked you at about 85 BPM on that. In the sessions I go to, that would get played at 130 minimum, sometimes up to 150. 
> ...snip...


John, thank you very much for your kind words.

The BPM thing is intriguing. I went back and looked at the video closely and you are right on...I played 64 beats (16+16+16+16) in 44 seconds, which works out to 87 BPM. I wasn't even thinking of speed, and I actually think the song sounds pretty decent at this tempo.

130 to 150 BPM is pretty ballistic...Supersonic even. I have always thought that right hand speed is one of my very few strong suites, but that would really be a challenge to do DUD DUD. 

Interestingly, I find that on almost all of the jigs I'm working on, I can play one section measurably faster (I'd guess around 100 BPM) than the other section (on some jigs it's the A section & on some it's the B section), and I actually need to slow-down on the "good" section to keep even time on the whole song.

Anyway, I love these jigs. They have such a feeling of familiarity to me that I find them easy to conceptualize and internalize fairly quickly while learning them (and this isn't usually the case for me with fiddle tunes and other songs).

Thanks again for the kind words. I look forward to continuing to work on these wonderful songs!

BTW, here is a really good discussion of BPM as it applies to jigs and ITM.

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## Brent Hutto

If I understand correctly, the essence of playing jigs is that the tunes are usually straightforward, catchy and fun but getting the right feel at the proper speed of around 130bpm is darned challenging. When thinking about the speed of a jig, just imagine some of those Irish dancing troupes that were real popular a few years back...and imagine being their accompanist..accompini...err, mandolin player.

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## chriss

> That has been my problem with DUD DUD. I practice with a metronome and can do DUD DUD up to about 96 BPM. But I hit a "wall" somewhere after that, depending on the tune. I can practice and practice and not break through it. Sometimes I practice and lose ground! But with DUD UDU I can get to sessions speeds with a reasonable amount of practice. 
> 
> My dilemma is: Do I spend who knows how long "re-tooling" my picking pattern, all the while not being able to play jigs at sessions, or do I get up to session speeds in a reasonable amount of time, all the while further ingraining my alternate picking pattern?


John yes this is exactly my situation.  I was wondering if there's some lil trick or approach to DUD-DUD that I'm missing that speeds it up.  But it sounds like some people can do it comfortably at session speed and others ( ... me, you ... ) seem to still wrestle with it even with lots of practice.

Way back when, when I said jigs come together "smoothly" using DUD-UDU, the "smoothly" refers to getting the rhythm+timing right, that is, being on time +not late on the "4" beat.  I don't have trouble getting a good strong emphasis on "4" on the upstroke of "DUD-UDU".  So I'm inclined to stick with what I got, keep aiming to "play the song, not just play the notes," keep learning more tunes, and enjoying our Mon nite session tonight.

I sure appreciate everyone's perspectives.
C

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## Randi Gormley

This came up during a couple of workshops at Catskills Irish Arts week and different mandolin teachers (all of whom are banjo players, btw) said different things; one would say DUD DUD and the other DUD UDU and a third just wouldn't even get into it. The idea, as it was mentioned several times, is that what it sounds like is more important than any particular pick stroke pattern. For years, I've played upside down anyway; I naturally would start DUD UDU and end up UDU DUD (had one teacher comment that i was probably dynamite on polkas), but I didn't have much problem with emphasis on the correct beats. When I started taking lessons for classical mandolin, I was absolutely lectured that any 3/4 pattern was DUD DUD. So I've been trying to switch over and have mostly managed to do DUD DUD for classical pieces and when I'm playing jigs slowly (when we're learning something new, say) but do drift back to the old way when I'm playing something I already know, especially at session speed. At least in my case, I appear to be able to do both, but my default is DUD UDU (actually UDU DUD UDU) when speed is the primary need.

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## John Flynn

One of the issues is the speed that some sessions like to play at. ITM is supposed to be dance music and I've read that for dance,  jigs should be in the 115-120 range. If the sessions I went to kept it at that speed, I would be tempted to put some work on "re-tooling" to DUD DUD. I think with some woodshedding I could get there. But I've rarely been at sessions where jigs went that slow. For some players, sometimes it seems like a contest as to how fast they can go. Of course, that dynamic is no different in old-time music, which I have more experience with, but they rarely play jigs, and when they do, they really slow them down.

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## chriss

> ITM is supposed to be dance music and I've read that for dance,  jigs should be in the 115-120 range {...} For some players, sometimes it seems like a contest as to how fast they can go.


hahaha John, I think YOU'RE NOW REALLY ONTO SOMETHING.  Yup sometimes it's just a flat-out horse race.  And of course ITM serves another time-honored purpose as pub music in addition to for dancing.  Which by the way, I personally fully support in every way.  But when it turns from dancin music to drinkin music, or music to drink by, for either the musicians or for the rest of the pub listening ... then that's when the "governor" is sure to come off.  And I mean "governor" in it's engineering/mechanical meaning and it's British slang meaning equally.

Ah well, it is, what it is, and people will be people.

So yeah bring it on. Pull some pints, I'll warm up my DUD-UDU forget about my DUD-DUD cuz my D-D ain't gonna work for this, and let's have a go.  I'm pretty sure I won't win anything but I'm just as sure I'll be grinning and laughing halfway thru haha!

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## Tracey

I've just started working on Swallowtail Jig from Chris Thile's Essential Techniques.  FWIW he recommends DUD-DUD.  After spending so much time working on DUDUDUDU in 4/4 time, the DUD-DUD pattern is a real challenge.

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## Bernie Daniel

> I've just started working on Swallowtail Jig from Chris Thile's Essential Techniques.  FWIW he recommends DUD-DUD.  After spending so much time working on DUDUDUDU in 4/4 time, the DUD-DUD pattern is a real challenge.


Well that's interesting.  In another video he says always alternate.  Oh well, I think that shows you need to do what works best for you unless you have hope of winning All Ireland on the mandolin some day -- assuming they have that catagory.  

DUD DUD probably will not win first place for you at Winfield though.  Anyway looking at Randi's post  (#44) I guess playing waltzes is good training for jigs?  Sound good to me.

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## Vigee

> When I started taking lessons for classical mandolin, I was absolutely lectured that any 3/4 pattern was DUD DUD.


For non-jig 6/8s?  I think that's interesting, since Mair implies that the alternating picking should be the default for Classical.  Line line should remain smooth even as the beats carry the emphasis , something not usually associated with jig picking.

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## foldedpath

> Well that's interesting.  In another video he says always alternate.  Oh well, I think that shows you need to do what works best for you unless you have hope of winning All Ireland on the mandolin some day -- assuming they have that catagory.


Well, Chris Thile isn't saying "use what works for you," he's saying that Bluegrass is played one way, and Irish trad is typically played another way. 

In a similar vein, you'll see a lot of straight alternating picking in Tim O'Brien's "The Mandolin and Bouzouki of Tim O'Brien" instructional DVD. But when he shows you how he plays the "Kid on the Mountain" jig, he does it with DUD, DUD picking, because that's what _works_ to express the rhythm of the tune. 

This isn't about winning contests, it's about learning how Irish trad is different... very different... from what many of us are used to, in American music genres. You can bypass all this advice from players who have worked through this stuff, but make sure you're doing it for a good reason, and not just because it takes extra work to get there. 

I have that same love/hate relationship to ornaments, which is the next layer of difficulty after you've got the different rhythms down, and can play some tunes up to session and dance speeds. I can do DUD,DUD just fine, but getting consistent ornaments on mandolin for Irish trad is a killer. I'll get there, eventually. Some things just take years, and not months or days of practice.

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## Loretta Callahan

DUD DUD and DUU DUU is really hard to play ~ even with a jig I know well.   I can certainly hear that jig rhythm in the picking sequence, but I can get a very nice jig rhythm with with my very vanilla DUDUDUDU.  I'm not gonna worry about it now. 

 I'm just happy that I finally nailed Kid on the Mountain after two months ~ with no finger or wrist pain;  just gonna work on the rhythm and feeling of that tune 'cause it feeds my spirit.  Maybe I'll find that I need to change my picking style later in my practice or in the next life or something.  This isn't a contest or school exercise for me; it's music that I like to hear and play.  For others, it might be different, which is fine.

Personally, after 8 childhood years of a fundamentalist piano teacher's edicts killing any desire in me to ever touch a piano again, ever, I'll stick with the spirit of the music and play and appreciate what floats my boat ~ no matter who says "always", "never" or "must".  That's just me. Many rules are very necessary and good ~ and some may keep us from getting sore fingers and carpal tunnel, others are made to be broken, imho.  I won't play a mandolin with a chain saw, for example.

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## Jill McAuley

> Jill, thanks for the info...Looks like a rare shopping trip (to Best Buy) is in order.
> Another question, how does one know the shot is well framed on the flip when working alone? It appears that the shot perspective can only be seen from a user behind the camera.
> (Oh, and Jill, I'm quite impressed you are posting at 6:18 am your time.)


That is one of the drawbacks of the Flip/Q3 - the whole shot perspective thing, but for improved video-audio I reckon I'll be able to deal with that!

Cheers,
Jill

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## Eddie Sheehy

Positioning a mirror behind the Q3 can help in framing the video...

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## Jill McAuley

Ah, great idea - thanks for that one Eddie!

Cheers,
Jill

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## Randi Gormley

Well, yes, it should have been 6/8 sted 3/4. my blushes.

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## Ed Goist

> Positioning a mirror behind the Q3 can help in framing the video...


This IS a great idea, and it will make me look like Hendrix...Always a good thing.

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## ampyjoe

> Ed, great job. That sounded really nice. I will be interested to follow your progress as you get to session speeds. I hope you let us know, it may provide some inspiration. 
> 
> I clocked you at about 85 BPM on that. In the sessions I go to, that would get played at 130 minimum, sometimes up to 150. That has been my problem with DUD DUD. I practice with a metronome and can do DUD DUD up to about 96 BPM. But I hit a "wall" somewhere after that, depending on the tune. I can practice and practice and not break through it. Sometimes I practice and lose ground! But with DUD UDU I can get to sessions speeds with a reasonable amount of practice. 
> 
> My dilemma is: Do I spend who knows how long "re-tooling" my picking pattern, all the while not being able to play jigs at sessions, or do I get up to session speeds in a reasonable amount of time, all the while further ingraining my alternate picking pattern?


I'm not terribly used to using a metronome, but I tried 130 (on a web page metronome) and I found picking DUD doable. The jig sounded to me on the fast side, but not ridiculously so. 150 on the other hand sounded to me way over fast, and not like a jig at all, though I suppose a better player might be able to make it sound jig-like.

Perhaps because I'm used to playing DUD, I find no advantage (speed-wise) in playing jigs DUD UDU. However, for runs of triplets in hornpipes, yes, it can help quite a lot if the hornpipe is going fast.

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## mikeyes

> Well, I've been working on DUD DUD for a while, but I am about to give up on it. I find the concept is holding me back rather than empowering me. I can keep up at sessions with DUD UDU. I fall off the track with DUD DUD. 
> 
> I do have a couple of counter points. It's already been pointed out that Enda Scahill's book says you can do it either way. Gerry O'Connor's "Complete..." book doesn't make a deal out of it one way or another. ?


I'm not an absolutist on this subject, but I have found DUD DUD the best way to learn jigs before you really start to play them in a serious manner.  By that I mean that the DUD DUD form is much more likely to give you the lift a jig needs when you are learning to play.  Later on, once you develop a style, almost anything goes.

Both Enda Scahill and Gerry O'Connor have told me that they teach DUD DUD to beginners for the same reason.  While it is possible to play jigs well with DUDUDU, it does handicap you as a beginner.  All the people mentioned who don't play exclusively DUD DUD have a lot of talent and are elite players.  At that level guidelines are not as important as they are in the beginning.

Mike

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## Dagger Gordon

"I'm not an absolutist on this subject, but I have found DUD DUD the best way to learn jigs before you really start to play them in a serious manner. By that I mean that the DUD DUD form is much more likely to give you the lift a jig needs when you are learning to play. Later on, once you develop a style, almost anything goes."

A fair point, Mike.  I can certainly see the benefit of learning jigs using DUD DUD, if for no other reason than that you are then playing sufficiently slowly to be aware of what you are doing.

But frankly, I would be surprised if many people were able to say exactly what they were doing when they were playing at full tilt.  I certainly couldn't.

One comment which I usually make when this subject comes up is that the first time I ever heard of the DUD DUD jig picking pattern was here on Mandolin Cafe, by which time I'd been playing for about 30 years.  No-one had ever said anything about it to me before - ever.
I've no idea whether Enda Scahill or Gerry O'Connor were told about this when they were young, but I suspect that when they started they just worked it out for themselves.  They knew what jigs were meant to sound like, after all.  
Maybe not, though.  It could be that Irish tenor banjo has always been taught that way.  

It seems to me that the emphasis in Irish tenor banjo playing has always been to get in lots of triplets, which in itself is surely going to affect the direction of your pick.

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## Steve L

"But frankly, I would be surprised if many people were able to say exactly what they were doing when they were playing at full tilt.  I certainly couldn't."    

Dagger Gordon


Ah, the truth at last!   :Laughing:

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## Loretta Callahan

I always wondered about that.  Maybe we beginners aren't s'posed to know this stuff  :Grin: 




> "But frankly, I would be surprised if many people were able to say exactly what they were doing when they were playing at full tilt.  I certainly couldn't."    
> 
> Dagger Gordon
> 
> 
> Ah, the truth at last!

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## Jill McAuley

> Maybe not, though.  It could be that Irish tenor banjo has always been taught that way.  
> 
> It seems to me that the emphasis in Irish tenor banjo playing has always been to get in lots of triplets, which in itself is surely going to affect the direction of your pick.


I think Dagger has an excellent point here - I do think a lot of tenor banjo approaches and techniques are automatically applied to the mandolin back home - I've rarely come across folk at home who would class themselves as purely trad mandolinists - rather I meet folks who play tenor banjo as well as mandolin. Many would primarily consider themselves banjo players in fact. Sure I myself play jigs DUD DUD on the mandolin because that's how I was taught them on the *tenor banjo!* 

As Dagger stated re: Enda Scahill and Gerry O'Connor -they knew what jigs where meant to sound like and that to me is the key issue. Really and truly, folks who are new to Irish trad/Celtic music would do well to listen to LOADS of it as much as they can, so that they too can know what a jig is meant to sound like.

Cheers,
Jill

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## Avi Ziv

> Really and truly, folks who are new to Irish trad/Celtic music would do well to listen to LOADS of it as much as they can, so that they too can know what a jig is meant to sound like.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jill



Amen !!

btw - I must be in a minority as one who is primarily a mandolin player and picked up the banjo much later. I do approach the two instruments differently though.

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## Jill McAuley

Actually I find that there's a fair few folks here in the States who start on mandolin and then get a banjo later, whereas at home I meet a lot of tenor players, especially younger ones, who got a mandolin mainly as a way to have another category to compete in at the All Ireland! Also interestingly, I was exchanging emails a few years back with a fella from the States who'd gone over and competed on the mandolin at the All Ireland - he said he noticed that most of the other competitors approached the mandolin from a very tenor banjo-ish slant as regards technique and ornamentation.

Cheers,
Jill

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## mikeyes

> But frankly, I would be surprised if many people were able to say exactly what they were doing when they were playing at full tilt.  I certainly couldn't..


Both Enda Scahill and GO'C are very good mandolin players, I think Enda is an All-Ireland player if I am not mistaken.  Both of them are familiar with the peculiar aspects of the mandolin.

What Dagger says about elite level performers is true in many fields (that they often don't know exactly what they are doing when they do it) is often true.  But I have the videos that show Enda, Darren Maloney, Mick Moloney, and several others using DUD DUD in class.  I also have videos showing them in concert using other techniques with jigs.  But remember, these are elite level players who have fully developed styles and visions of the music. They have stepped outside the box for a reason.  Everyone of them tell me that they teach DUD DUD to beginners for the reasons mentioned above and that once the basics are learned, the rest will follow.

What should be taken away is that learning the feel of music is the most important thing if you are just starting out and that DUD DUD makes that a lot easier even if it is technically harder at first.  A lot of studies have shown that if a task initially seems more difficult to learn that students find themselves concentrating more and they tend to learn the task a lot better.  

As for the mandolin to banjo business, Jill is right.  A lot people I know in the States played mandolin or fiddle in other styles before getting into Irish banjo.  Tenor banjo has never been that popular in these style  As a result you will see a lot of North American Irish tenor banjo players using mandolin techniques, especially left hand techniques, that you won't see in Ireland.  You'll also see thicker picks and a slightly different choice of mandolins due to the BG and OT influences.

Mike

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## JeffD

> One of the best pieces of advice I was ever given starting out was to listen to loads and loads of jigs so as to be able to internalize the feel of them - once that happens then whatever picking pattern of choice you go with kind of doesn't matter.


That should be written on the mandolin case itself. Really the best of the best advice.

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## John Flynn

I think that is the best advice. I had an experience at a session this week that was a revelation to me and it may be related. We played "The Road to Lisdoonvanrna." I had never played this tune until after I heard it at an earlier edition of this session about a year ago. As soon as I started to learn it, I used DUD DUD from the start. But I've never been able to play it with this group because I could not get it up to their tempo using DUD DUD, despite a significant amount of practice over several months. This past session, though, I tried playing it DUD UDU, even though I've never played it that way and "presto" I could play along at tempo for the first time. However, because of this thread I noticed HOW I played it. I realized that without thinking about it, I was putting the emphasis pretty much where I had been, but I was just going faster. So it would seem that the DUD DUD practice caused me to internalize how the tune should sound and after that, it didn't matter so much what my pick direction was. So in addition to listening more to jigs, I may continue learn new jigs DUD DUD until I get to the point that I "hit the speed barrier" and then continue DUD UDU.

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## Randi Gormley

... isn't Road to Lisdoonvarna a slide? ... or is it one of those tunes that has a couple of names and I've gotten it confused with something else? anyway, now I feel less guilty about reverting back to DUD UDU when I'm playing up to speed no matter how much I try to practice DUD DUD!

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## John Flynn

> ... isn't Road to Lisdoonvarna a slide? ... or is it one of those tunes that has a couple of names and I've gotten it confused with something else? anyway, now I feel less guilty about reverting back to DUD UDU when I'm playing up to speed no matter how much I try to practice DUD DUD!


There is debate on that, which I am not qualified to get in to, but it has taken up a lot of space on the thesession.org. Some people think it shoud be classified as a single jig, some think it should be a slide, some think it depends on how it's played. It would seem to be a candidate for DUD DUD in any case. At my session, we play it like a fast jig, at least to my ear.

On thesession.org, someone mentioned that the Cheftians even turned it into a reel on one recording!

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## Randi Gormley

Oh! that explains it. We play it as a slide, then. I'll have to check out the Chieftains version as a reel. The mind boggles.

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## Dylan Hatch

Here's my two cents on the jig picking pattern (it's been a while since I put in my 2 cents - I'm excited!)
I focus mostly on DUD DUD - I find it's a great, pulsing "home base" to operate from. 
I have also given in to curiosity and started playing around with Dan B's DDU DDU (if he sounds that good playing it, there has to be something there, eh?).

With both of these approaches, I find this important benefit in addition to the innate pulse - As I get comfortable with the picking pattern, it seems "designed in" to the pattern to throw in 2 16th notes for any one 1/8th note (edit = fractions are hard!).  Does that make any sense?  There is almost an underlying "DDD DDD" pattern I can move into and out of - throw in some upstrokes to the DDD wherever I want a bit of embellishment - and then move back to my DUD DUD, DDU DDU, and whathaveyou.

Anyhoo, I appreciate your response (or indulgence) respectively and equally.   :Wink: 

Does anyone else feel an occasional "DDD DDD" pattern to drive some embellishments?

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## zoukboy

@John Flynn:  I think DUDUDU worked for that tune because it is a slide/single jig.  These have a usual pattern of 1/4-1/8  1/4-1/8  rather than 1/8-1/8-1/8  1/8-1/8-1/8  on every downbeat so it is easier to pick them with a D-U D-U pattern.  I play them that was and when they have a beat with three 8th notes I play that DUD.  

Same thing for hop jigs, which have that same 1/4-1/8 thing but in 9/8 instead of 6/8 (or 12/8).

But for double jigs and slip jigs I use DUD DUD.

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## bentley palfreyman

I started out dud-udu for the same reasons, but  I switched becuase I get more bounce with the dud-dud. took about three of four tunes to get it to feel natural but it was worth the effort. start with a new tune rather than trying to relearn one you know, one that is almost staight eight notes all the way through seems easier. hope this helps.


> I've always picked jigs "dud-udu" - seemed faster, smoother + easier when I was learning.  Altho getting a decent emphasis on the upstroke took some getting used to, that was easier than making the 2 "downs" in "dud-dud" work right- on rhythm and smooth.
> 
> I've run across a couple things + people recently saying they prefer the sound and/or rhythm they get using "dud-dud", even tho it might have taken a while to learn it and get it smooth.
> 
> So I'm interested in getting some idea of how many people use which one?
> 
> And also, hearing from anybody who has tried switching from "dud-udu" to "dud-dud"...
>   - did you SUCCEED? or was it like trying to quit smoking or write with your left hand ... tried but never broke the habit?
>   - if you DID succeed- how long before you felt "settled down" with the new picking pattern?
> ...

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## Kay Kirkpatrick

> Of course for some of us "tempos get faster" means anything above 85bpm!


I'd laugh at this, Brent, only it's MY mandolin life, too!

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## Loretta Callahan

Disclaimer ~ I'm going to whine a bit.

Well, I do have the jig rhythm down ... DU DDU DDU DDU DDU .... when I strum .... but just as I thought I had nailed _Kid on the Mountain_ .... it seems that my picking is stuck in the DUDUDU ... or whatever gets me through the jig.

My esteemed teacher, Zak,  noticed my lack of proper jig picking.  So, for now ... I'm gonna pull back on the jigs a bit ... focus on getting my reels, waltzes and polkas going .... and see if I can get the proper picking hard wired.

Apparently, I get the proper jig rhythm in much of my jig playing: you know: PineApple, Apricot ... but not with the picking.  I have the feel of the rhythm, but my fingers and pick get there in their own way ....  :Crying: 

Woe is me ... but I'm not giving up.

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## Randi Gormley

Persevere! You can do it! 
Of course, I pick any which way when we're at speed, but my intentions are honorable and I've developed a really strong up stroke. In the middle of a session, you can't hear which way I'm picking -- but I'm working on the whole correct pick direction as well as a discipline measure. I think intention is a not inconsiderable piece of the battle.

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## Loretta Callahan

Thanks, Randi.  I'm working on picking properly on scales, but really have no idea how to apply the picking to tunes I know.  Perhaps I'm thinkikng too much.  

I'm actually quite bummed out right now not playing jigs.  Breaking bad habits is harder than learning properly from scratch, but I'm not sure not playing jigs at all is the answer.  Folks say I have the jiggy feel .... but not the jiggy pick.  I didn't realize how much I enjoy playing jigs ... even if they aren't proper.  Oh my ... tomorrow is another day I guess.

I'll see what my next lesson brings.  Jigs make me happy and I miss playing them.  :Frown:

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## liestman

One thing that I think has not been directly mentioned in this thread: Working hard to have DUD DUD under control not only makes jigs sound properly but also sets you up for the freedom to put in nice triplet ornaments in nearly any situation you encounter, which is a core skill to me. 

For example, if you want to insert a triplet into a reel, to keep the pulse of the tune and to preserve the surrounding picking pattern, you need to put two downstrokes in a row, either when starting the triplet or ending the triplet and this is determined (at least in my world) by where you need a downstroke to be to coincide with an accented beat (notes 1,3,5,7) in a reel. So if you master DUD DUD picking in a jig, you are well-setup to do two downstrokes in a row in quick succession and this skill allows the insertion of triplets in reels.

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## Barbara Shultz

I started out playing with no regard to pick direction, and learned a lot of tunes that way.  Then, I started paying attention to pick direction, and did some research on the different options, and, for me, DUD DUD, makes the most sense.  I found that on the jigs that I learned before, I had to 'relearn' the muscle memory part of the pick direction.  Many jigs, slip jigs, and slides, have passages that end up being several down strokes in a row (on counts 1,3,4,5,6) ends up being D D DUD.  I WAS playing these measures D U DUD, but find that by trying to change it to D D DUD, I develop a pattern with my right hand, and that enables me to play faster, if I keep the same pattern going.

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## Brent Hutto

Can any pattern actually be faster than DUDUDUDUDU? 

I thought the advantage to extra downstrokes is the heavier feel they bring to the notes they're used on. But for sheer speed your hand has to make a less economical motion to do D-D rather than D-U doesn't it?

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## Barbara Shultz

I'm sure this question can be argued forever!  I'm not all about speed... maybe if playing everything as absolutely fast as I could, DUDUDU would be what I choose.  Instead, for me, the feel of a tune is more important than speed.  In a jig, there are two main beats, on counts one and four.  For me, having those strokes be downstrokes, creates the emphasis that sounds right to my ear.  The other possible way to pick a jig, DDU DDU, still has the first & fourth beats with a down stroke, and there are still two down strokes in a row... they are just in a different place than with DUD DUD picking.  One difference with DDU DDU, is that when you are picking a tune with a quarter note and an eighth note, then 3 eighth notes, you'd pick it D U DDU.  With DUD UDU, you'd pick it D U UDU, right?  Or would you change it up and play D U DUD in that case?  

Some people pay no attention to their pick direction, pick every measure, and every instance, different than the one before, and it works for them.  But for me, DUD DUD makes the most sense, and works the best.

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## Brent Hutto

I'm just curious how it works for others because when I first took up the mandolin last summer, the first time I saw a jig I just naturally went DUD DUD. It seemed logical. But when I tried to speed it up to anything like a real tempo I had to switch to DUD UDU or it got choppy. 

Later when I started taking lessons my teacher advised something to the effect that if you're playing really fast (and my "really fast" is a lot slower than yours I'll bet!) eventually you get to the speed where DUD UDU is the only way to go. I guess the goal is to get where you can play at the tempo you need to while still choosing the best-sounding picking pattern. For now DUD DUD would only work cleanly for me r-e-a-l...s-l-o-w but maybe I'll get faster eventually.

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## Barbara Shultz

Well, that's what's been working for me.  There are probably as many teacher's opinions, as there ways to play!  Mine told me pick direction didn't matter!

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## Barbara Shultz

*Loretta posted:    Thanks, Randi. I'm working on picking properly on scales, but really have no idea how to apply the picking to tunes I know. Perhaps I'm thinkikng too much.

    I'm actually quite bummed out right now not playing jigs. Breaking bad habits is harder than learning properly from scratch, but I'm not sure not playing jigs at all is the answer. Folks say I have the jiggy feel .... but not the jiggy pick. I didn't realize how much I enjoy playing jigs ... even if they aren't proper. Oh my ... tomorrow is another day I guess.

    I'll see what my next lesson brings. Jigs make me happy and I miss playing them.*

Loretta, can you read standard notation?  I think that the EASIEST way to get the 'idea' of the jig picking pattern you are trying for, is to take the notation, and write DUD DUD (or whatever is appropriate for that measure) above the notation.  Then, play it slowly at first, concentrating on the pick pattern.

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## Jill McAuley

> I'm just curious how it works for others because when I first took up the mandolin last summer, the first time I saw a jig I just naturally went DUD DUD. It seemed logical. But when I tried to speed it up to anything like a real tempo I had to switch to DUD UDU or it got choppy. 
> 
> Later when I started taking lessons my teacher advised something to the effect that if you're playing really fast (and my "really fast" is a lot slower than yours I'll bet!) eventually you get to the speed where DUD UDU is the only way to go. I guess the goal is to get where you can play at the tempo you need to while still choosing the best-sounding picking pattern. For now DUD DUD would only work cleanly for me r-e-a-l...s-l-o-w but maybe I'll get faster eventually.


Trad players like Angelina Carberry advocate for DUD DUD in jig picking and she has no problem using that and playing at speed. Other folks advocate for DUD UDU. My take on it all is to use whatever pattern works for you but the bottom line is that you just need to make sure that your jigs "feel" like jigs. I've seen folk using DUD DUD yet their jigs feel mechanical, with no bounce to them and similarly someone like Kieran Hanrahan advocates DUD UDU and it doesn't prevent him from injecting the proper feel and emphasis into the tunes. 

Cheers,
Jill (who uses DUD DUD by the way...)

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## Loretta Callahan

> Loretta, can you read standard notation?  I think that the EASIEST way to get the 'idea' of the jig picking pattern you are trying for, is to take the notation, and write DUD DUD (or whatever is appropriate for that measure) above the notation.  Then, play it slowly at first, concentrating on the pick pattern.


Thank you, Barb!  Yes, I _can_ read standard notation.  I'll start working on _Kid on the Mountain_ right now.   Where I was stuck was _not_ knowing what to do.  I don't have another lesson until the end of June ... so I've been concerned about playing jigs and digging myself further into a bad habit, so I just stopped playing them. :Frown: 

I've been watching cafe folks in the jig playing zone, Jill especially, and I can see her DUD DUD clearly.  Another cafe member mentioned developing a strong downstroke, which I also see in jig playing.

I'm just so happy to have something to do and a way to practice jigs.  I missed them.  :Grin:

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## Brent Hutto

> My take on it all is to use whatever pattern works for you but the bottom line is that you just need to make sure that your jigs "feel" like jigs. I've seen folk using DUD DUD yet their jigs feel mechanical, with no bounce to them and similarly someone like Kieran Hanrahan advocates DUD UDU and it doesn't prevent him from injecting the proper feel and emphasis into the tunes.


Jill, it like you're channelling the advice I got in my lesson. The bottom line was when I tried jigs DUD DUD it came out as DUD<FULL STOP>DUD<FULL STOP>DUD<FULL STOP>DUD and so on. And when I tried jigs DUD UDU it was like DUDUDUDUDUDUDUDUD blah, blah, blah. So my teacher said basically choose one and make it sound like a jig. Then if I want to try a different pattern I need to make it sound like a jig.

So far it's very much a work in progress. It never hurts to get reminded of what I'm on about. So how much do I owe you for the refresher lesson, Maestro?  :Mandosmiley:

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## Jill McAuley

Why just pop a bottle of Jameson's into a manila envelope and send it along! Joking! It's just that I keep reading your signature under your posts and it has me hankering after a wee dram....

Cheers,
Jill

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## Brent Hutto

Have you heard that song about the Piper and the Maker? The piper finishes playing, walks over to the bar and says "I've got a demon thirst on me. I haven't got all day". Another great line. Love that song.

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## Barbara Shultz

> Jill, it like you're channelling the advice I got in my lesson. The bottom line was when I tried jigs DUD DUD it came out as DUD<FULL STOP>DUD<FULL STOP>DUD<FULL STOP>DUD and so on. And when I tried jigs DUD UDU it was like DUDUDUDUDUDUDUDUD blah, blah, blah. So my teacher said basically choose one and make it sound like a jig. Then if I want to try a different pattern I need to make it sound like a jig.
> 
> So far it's very much a work in progress. It never hurts to get reminded of what I'm on about. So how much do I owe you for the refresher lesson, Maestro?


Brent, if when you pick a jig DUD DUD it comes out as DUD<FULL STOP>DUD<FULL STOP>DUD<FULL STOP>DUD, my suggestion would be to practice DUD DUD picking until it sounds right!  There are many instances, not only in jigs, where the ability to pick two downstrokes in a row, and make them sound right, comes in very handy!

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## JeffD

I started out not caring, and I find that my "not caring" stroke is DUD UDU. It works because I do the emphasis. At one point I worked on DUD DUD, and I can do it when I think about it. As soon as I stop thinking about it, I revert back to DUD UDU. Sometimes right in the middle of the tune.

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## Barbara Shultz

In my experience, when you work on changing the way you do something, it does take a while, to get the muscle memory ingrained.  But, the more you 'work' on it, you'll find that you just do it, without having to think about it.  To me, it works best for the 'beat' to be a downstroke, and that means that in a 6/8 jig, count 4 (the 2nd 'beat') is a downstroke.  For me, it's not the emphasis (yes, if you work on it, I'm sure you can get an upstroke to have emphasis), it's the pattern.

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## Brent Hutto

FWIW, my teacher's advice was to focus on my straight DUDUDU picking until I can choose a jig accent or any other as needed. I mean it ain't like I can do a 2/4 or 4/4 DUDU pattern that sounds right either. Not consistently. But the jig one is the worst of the lot. 

So that's the plan for the time being. Mostly I just don't play a lot of jigs!

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## Jill McAuley

In Enda Scahill's tenor banjo tutor he starts out teaching reels, which is a bit unusual in that usually folks start out teaching simple jigs as they're perceived to be easier to grasp. Enda reckons once you're comfortable playing reels you'll be better placed to work on jigs.

Cheers,
Jill

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## Brent Hutto

Well one way or another I've got to learn some better pick control, that much is for sure!

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## Loretta Callahan

> In Enda Scahill's tenor banjo tutor he starts out teaching reels, which is a bit unusual in that usually folks start out teaching simple jigs as they're perceived to be easier to grasp. Enda reckons once you're comfortable playing reels you'll be better placed to work on jigs.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jill


Interesting.  I feel I have a pretty good grip on reels (I'm sure my teacher will have something to say about that).  And, if my jig practices fail, I might just try a few shots of some good spirits to lighten up and just go for the feel of the tune.  Being uptight and stressed certainly won't encourage good music.

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## Brent Hutto

> Being uptight and stressed certainly won't encourage good music.


Uh-oh. I'm in a heap o' trouble then...

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## Loretta Callahan

Well, let me know if being uptight and stressed works for you and I'll reconsider reaching for the bottle of spirits. :Wink: 




> Uh-oh. I'm in a heap o' trouble then...

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## zoukboy

Loretta,

You might do better starting with double jigs rather than slip jigs ("Kid on the Mountain" is a slip jig.) I suggest learning new tunes to go with a new technique and save the tunes you've already learned until you've mastered the new technique.  Do you know "Tobin's Jig"?  If you don't then that might be a good one to learn with DUD DUD.

Another thing you can do is practice a quarter note/eighth note pattern in 6/8 with all downstrokes:

D DD D D DD D D DD D D DD  D
123456 123456 123456 123456
1    2     1    2    1    2    1    2

This can help you get used to the idea of two downstrokes in a row.  Adding the two upstrokes on beats 2 and 5 is easier once you get this down.

Good luck!

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## Ed Goist

Just thought I'd throw this out there...I have a close friend who is an accomplished classical guitarist, and he thinks all of this "picking direction stuff" in nonsense. He just shakes his head and says that since our courses are tuned in unison, each pick stroke (up or down) should sound the exact same. He has told me (over and over again) that if they sound different in any way, the focus should be on correcting that.

I'd love to have a good response to this. Comments?

Oh, and my DUD DUD clean playing speed jumped about 10 bpm thanks to the improved playability of my new mandolin. The mandolin's profound responsiveness allows for incredibly short strokes, and once you get a handle on that, things speed up...

Still lots of work to do though before I'm anywhere near what's been called _'session speed'_ here!

I DO love playing jigs though! _The Rose in the Heather_ & _Sliabh Russell_ are my favorites so far.

Great thread!

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## JeffD

For a while I used a DDU DDU style. It worked well for some tunes, but I eventually abandoned it.

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## JeffD

> Just thought I'd throw this out there...I have a close friend who is an accomplished classical guitarist, and he thinks all of this "picking direction stuff" in nonsense. He just shakes his head and says that since our courses are tuned in unison, each pick stroke (up or down) should sound the exact same. He has told me (over and over again) that if they sound different in any way, the focus should be on correcting that.
> 
> I'd love to have a good response to this. Comments?


I don't know what you friend is getting at. I induce a deliberate emphasis in order to get the rhythm I want. Or no emphasis if I am doing a tune where a particular rhythm effect is not desired.

Perhaps your friend means that one should have no "default" unconscious difference, that one should always be in conscious charge of the emphasis. 

If a persons down pick is stronger than their up pick, that person can take advantage of that "feature" and use a DUD DUD pattern to get the jigs.

My opinion is that if it sounds good the way you do it, then you are doing it right.

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## Ed Goist

> ...snip...
> Perhaps your friend means that one should have no "default" unconscious difference, that one should always be in conscious charge of the emphasis. 
> ...snip...


This is EXACTLY what he means. Very well said Jeff.
He insists that the proper (most effective for the player in the long run) way to handle this is to train oneself so that stroke direction is not what one relies upon to establish emphasis. (Oh, and he kind of belabors this point no end!  :Frown:  )

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## Dagger Gordon

I think I agree with that, actually.  I've never really paid much attention to the direction, but I'm certainly aware of the need for emphasis.

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## Mike Snyder

I have found myself picking DUD-DUD, but only on some simple jigs that I know well, and then only when the hour is late and the session rolling strong. The other players seem to pick me up and carry me to places I've not been before with my little instrument, and that pulse and surge needs that pattern of picking. It's ruined, of course, as soon as I become aware of it.

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## Barbara Shultz

> Loretta,
> 
> You might do better starting with double jigs rather than slip jigs ("Kid on the Mountain" is a slip jig.) I suggest learning new tunes to go with a new technique and save the tunes you've already learned until you've mastered the new technique.  Do you know "Tobin's Jig"?  If you don't then that might be a good one to learn with DUD DUD.
> 
> Another thing you can do is practice a quarter note/eighth note pattern in 6/8 with all downstrokes:
> 
> D DD D D DD D D DD D D DD  D
> 123456 123456 123456 123456
> 1    2     1    2    1    2    1    2
> ...


Loretta.... I agree with Roger!  It's harder to relearn a tune the right way, than it is to learn a new one the right way.  This week in the Song A Week Social Group (Week #111), the tune is an easy to learn and memorize tune, Calliope House (in D).  Why don't you start with that one?

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## Barbara Shultz

> Just thought I'd throw this out there...I have a close friend who is an accomplished classical guitarist, and he thinks all of this "picking direction stuff" in nonsense. He just shakes his head and says that since our courses are tuned in unison, each pick stroke (up or down) should sound the exact same. He has told me (over and over again) that if they sound different in any way, the focus should be on correcting that.
> 
> I'd love to have a good response to this. Comments?
> 
> Oh, and my DUD DUD clean playing speed jumped about 10 bpm thanks to the improved playability of my new mandolin. The mandolin's profound responsiveness allows for incredibly short strokes, and once you get a handle on that, things speed up...
> 
> Still lots of work to do though before I'm anywhere near what's been called _'session speed'_ here!
> 
> I DO love playing jigs though! _The Rose in the Heather_ & _Sliabh Russell_ are my favorites so far.
> ...


Well, I'm pretty much just an accomplished beginner mandolinist, so my opinion probably doesn't measure up to an accomplished classical guitarist.... but here's my opinion on HIS opinion.

First, I'd say that playing Irish Trad jigs on a mandolin is quite a bit different than playing classical guitar....
Second, I'd say that pick direction isn't all about whether the upstroke and the down stroke sound the same.  I'd say it's about developing a pattern.  

I'd also say that being able to make your upstroke and your downstroke sound the same is something to work toward, but that doesn't mean that all notes in a tune should sound the same!

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## foldedpath

> This is EXACTLY what he means. Very well said Jeff.
> He insists that the proper (most effective for the player in the long run) way to handle this is to train oneself so that stroke direction is not what one relies upon to establish emphasis. (Oh, and he kind of belabors this point no end!  )


If your classical guitar playing friend just meant "don't be a slave to a pattern," I can agree with that. 

But I think using a pattern like DUD,DUD or DDU,DDU because it takes advantage of the biomechanics of hand and flatpick is still a valid approach. It's taking what _could_, in theory, be a handicap -- the natural tendency to play a downstroke with a little more force than an upstroke -- and using it to your advantage. You could spend years trying to even out your picking so every upstroke has exactly the same force as a downstroke, and then mentally push the emphasis where you want. But that's doing it the hard way. 
 :Wink: 

One other thing about downstrokes: I think it's important to recognize the way a tune consists of different phrases strung together, and then start each of those phrases with a downstroke. Even if that means breaking your DUD,DUD or DUDU pattern. It's a way of resetting your brain to express the next phrase, and kicking it off with a nice downstroke. This isn't unique to Irish trad; Chris Thile mentions the concept in his first DVD instruction video, in relation to picking OldTime/Bluegrass fiddle tunes.

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## JeffD

> One other thing about downstrokes: I think it's important to recognize the way a tune consists of different phrases strung together, and then start each of those phrases with a downstroke. Even if that means breaking your DUD,DUD or DUDU pattern. It's a way of resetting your brain to express the next phrase, and kicking it off with a nice downstroke. .


That is a good point.  Sometimes its not the rhythm you want to emphasize, but the phrase. And using a downstroke at the beginning of each phrase is like using capital letter at the beginning of each sentence. It not only helps with how it sounds, but it also gets "your mind right" on the phrasing, so that every thing you do will fall in line with what you believe the phrasing to be. Great stuff.

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## Barbara Shultz

It's funny, as I was practicing today, and thinking about pickin', I was thinking about measures, and also thinking about phrases.... it seems to me that phrases are what help give the 'feeling' or 'story' or 'emotion' that the tune should make you feel.

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## Loretta Callahan

Thanks so much everyone.  I'm feeling so very supported and encouraged by the cafe folks.  Zoukboy and Barbara: excellent advice.  I hopped into slipjigs because I mistakenly thought I had jigs down.  I especially like your advice, Barb, about starting with Calliope house.  It's a new tune for me, so I don't have to rip out threads to re-weave the tune.

I've just stopped practicing for a few days ... to let things settle and the sadness pass.  I find that when I put things down for a bit, I can pick 'em up again with a fresh approach.  Gotta feeling I'll be spending some serious time re-reading this thread.

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## Ed Goist

Thanks to everyone for the replies!
I should add that my classical guitarist buddy is remarkably supportive and tolerant of my novice questions. He is a very busy guitar instructor yet he has given me a lot of very good casual instruction (especially on technique) and has even tried to help me learn standard notation despite the fact that I am a Neanderthal when it comes to that. Oh, and it's because of him that I use an armrest. I was a "no armrest guy" until he watched a few of my videos and suggested that a rest would help my technique. Boy was he right. I just wanted to make sure that I gave him credit for all of the help he has given me.
I think the bottom line on this issue for me is practicality.
In my mandolin situation the practical has to trump the technical.
My goals are to have fun and to develop some level of competency (in that order).
If I were 20 I might be more accepting of the other "technique-driven" approach.
So, it's DUD DUD for me.
Thanks to all. Great replies!

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## zoukboy

> If I were 20 I might be more accepting of the other "technique-driven" approach.
> So, it's DUD DUD for me.
> Thanks to all. Great replies!


Ed, the vast majority of players who specialize in ITM on plectrum instruments use that picking pattern, so you are in good company.  The reason it works so well for jigs has more to do with note length than it does with dynamic accents.  Yes, downstrokes tend to be "louder" than upstrokes but if your technique is good that dynamic difference will be minimal.  What is more important is that with DUD DUD the delayed notes are all upstrokes so the characteristic rhythm is reinforced by the picking pattern rather than being achieved in spite of it.

Good luck!

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## Vigee

> I have a close friend who is an accomplished classical guitarist, and he thinks all of this "picking direction stuff" in nonsense. He just shakes his head and says that since our courses are tuned in unison, each pick stroke (up or down) should sound the exact same. He has told me (over and over again) that if they sound different in any way, the focus should be on correcting that.


Not only do I think your friend has it wrong, I think that following his advice would lead to wrist pain.  Yes, the strings are in unison, but they are still two strings, and the pick strikes the strings differently on the downstroke than the upstroke.  In this sense, playing a melody on the mandolin in more like playing chords on a guitar.  I think the bigger problem with his advice is that you would have to pick up with the same motion that you pick down with, which is highly unnatural.  Of course, one should be able to produce emphasis with an upstroke--any 6/8 that is not a jig should be played dududu with the emphasis on the beat, not the downstroke.

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## Dagger Gordon

> Of course, one should be able to produce emphasis with an upstroke--any 6/8 that is not a jig should be played dududu with the emphasis on the beat, not the downstroke.


Please explain why you see a difference between any 6/8 and a jig if you are able to produce emphasis with an upstroke.

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## John McGann

A 6/8 grouped in three quarter notes is 3/4 time. Almost anything written in 6/8 is dividing the beat into two dotted quarters, which means "feel in three". Unless there is something arch and clever afoot, or unusual phrasing across a certain passage, almost any 6/8 in traditional music (as this section of the forum addresses) is going to be better served with dud dud creating the emPHAsis on the right sylLAble. 

Yes, you should be able to accent upstrokes- but they do not have the gravitas that a downstroke does. Check out the traditions of Oud playing, as well as the gypsy jazz playing of Django and his modern heirs. They reveal a lot about the inherent power of the downstroke.

Still skeptical? Try a Bill Monroe heavy downstroke passage, like the "Heavy Traffic Ahead" solo, and play with all upstrokes. Try some Chuck Berry while you are in the neighborhood. If you can get your upstrokes as punchy and powerful as downstokes, I'll buy the next round  :Coffee: 

It is a simple matter of articulation (something plectrum players don't generally think about, but bowed string and wind/brass players OBSESS over) that dududu is "groups of two" and dud dud is "groups of three". If you can master that, the world of 5's, 7's and other odd groupings becomes yours- a rhythmic concept that will get you fired from any gig west of the Balkans  :Wink:

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## Vigee

> A 6/8 grouped in three quarter notes is 3/4 time. Almost anything written in 6/8 is dividing the beat into two dotted quarters, which means "feel in three". Unless there is something arch and clever afoot, or unusual phrasing across a certain passage, almost any 6/8 in traditional music (as this section of the forum addresses) is going to be better served with dud dud creating the emPHAsis on the right sylLAble. 
> 
> Yes, you should be able to accent upstrokes- but they do not have the gravitas that a downstroke does.


If we confine ourselves generally to traditional dance musics, duddud should be the go-to pattern.  However, I do know a few Quebecois six-huits, like Le Tourment, in which the phrasing requires either alternating between picking patterns (if not outrightly approaching the picking pattern afresh).  Of course, they are more modern compositions (or modern interpretations of traditional tunes).  Montagnardes can shift as well.  However, that repertoire comes from playing hurdy gurdy or cabrette.

I find it interesting that in her instructional material, Marilynn Mair advises striking two strings down, one up.  we can debate how authoritative she is.  I doubt I play only one string on the way up.  I think the advice is, at the very least, reflective of some mechanical realities--the upstroke is simply not the downstroke in reverse.  Playing downstrokes on 3 and 6 creates a pulse but also tends to be jaunty (for lack of a better word).  Playing an accented upstroke on 4 allows for a smooth phrase while putting emphasis on the beat, though not as strong as an emphasis as on 1.  The pulse of the tune wouldn't be strong, but that would be an issue for dance music.

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## zoukboy

I'll repeat what I said before, use of DUD DUD in Irish jigs has more to do with *note length* than with note loudness.  Relegating the two delayed (shortened) notes per bar to upstrokes while the other four notes are all downstrokes is a time proven strategy.  Not the only way, of course, but certainly the most common and, I believe, the best way to learn to play jigs before exploring other possibilities.

Regarding note loudness: I was taught to NOT accent downbeats in jigs unless I was making a particular phrasing choice.  The emphasis on the first note in each group of three in jigs is one of duration, not loudness.

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## Loretta Callahan

Wow!  It's been six months since my pick direction meltdown .... attempting to achieve the DUD DUD DUD  jig picking.  To update folks, I hit rock bottom.  I tried Barb's (also my teacher's suggestion) idea of writing out the strokes on musical notation, which helped, but it was such a crazy time at work ... it just felt like I was being punished. It made my head explode.  I had the feel of the 2's vs 3's ... and could make the jigs _sound_ ok, but my teacher could tell my direction was wonky.  He didn't want to "enable me" .... so he just let me figure it out, making the kind and occasional correction without crushing my soul, lol.

I quit playing jigs, got really sad, and started playing scales using "proper" jig picking.  I listened to a lot of music.  My work schedule got more reasonable.  Then, I learned some new, very simple jigs like _Kerfuntan Jig._  Voila ... the pick direction started coming naturally.  Pretty soon, my old jig tunes came home and started getting into the rhythm.  Like old friends, it was nice to have then around again.

Moral of this story: don't learn jigs from a fiddle player ~ especially if they don't understand mandolin picking technique.  Bad habits are hard to break , :Smile:

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## Steve L

Actually, learning tunes from fiddle players is one of the best things you can do.  I'm glad you're getting the rhythm right, though.

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## Dagger Gordon

Loretta,

On Feb 7th this year you wrote this:

'DUD DUD and DUU DUU is really hard to play ~ even with a jig I know well. I can certainly hear that jig rhythm in the picking sequence, but I can get a very nice jig rhythm with with my very vanilla DUDUDUDU. I'm not gonna worry about it now. '

However, today you wrote this:

'I quit playing jigs, got really sad, and started playing scales using "proper" jig picking.'

Sounds to me like it was going much better in February.

And Steve is quite right.  Of course you should be able to learn tunes -jigs included-from a fiddler.  Heavens above!  Celtic music has been played on the fiddle since time began, near enough.

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## Trevor Thomas

Id say learn as many jigs from fiddlers as you want  but dont copy their bow direction for your right hand, because its likely to be, well, less effective. 

I favour the DUD DUD approach, but only as a guideline. Its really good for maintaining the underlying pulse of the tune. I start off with it as a default, but really it depends on whats happening in the tune. There are times where it doesnt fit with what you might want to play, with the ornamentation or with a particular phrase. 

There are times when I play a phrase and it feels kind of awkward, and sounds kind of awakard too. Invariably, its because Ive not sorted the right hand out properly. 

The chances are that youll know alternate picking. Id advise persisting with the DUD DUD, and also spend some time pursuing the approach that Mr McGann mentioned, (which is also the approach in the old Mandolin Method books) whereby you use downstrokes whenever you change string course. Then, you can pick which approach sounds best for the the tune youre playing.  

I wouldnt take a classical guitarists advice on the matter. For a start, they dont use plecs at all, ever. Im pretty sure they dont usually use upstrokes and downstrokes either, do they?  And classical guitarists (and in fact classical musicians in general)  never play anything that sound like jigs.

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## Brent Hutto

> I wouldn’t take a classical guitarist’s advice on the matter. For a start, they don’t use plecs at all, ever. I’m pretty sure they don’t usually use upstrokes and downstrokes either, do they?  And classical guitarists (and in fact classical musicians in general)  never play anything that sound like jigs.


David Russell can do a fair semblance of a jig "feel" on classical guitar. That's the only person I've heard pull it off at all, and it's not one of my main pursuits!

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## Jill McAuley

Enda Scahill advocates for either method  - DUD DUD or DUD UDU, in his tenor banjo tutor. And I know that the cafe's own Dan B. mentioned using something completely different himself - DDU DDU perhaps? Anyways, bottom line is this - I use DUD DUD meself, but at the same time I've heard plenty of folk use DUD DUD and their jigs STILL don't feel like jigs, so my take on it would be to use whatever picking pattern feels comfortable for you and at the same time listen to as many jigs as possible so as to internalize the feel of them (which I may have already advised in this thread, so apologies if I'm repeating meself..). Oh and it never hurts to go back and practice tunes you already know really, really slowly - focusing on getting the right feel and emphasis in your playing, and in that way developing muscle memory for it all.

Cheers,
Jill

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## Caleb

I tried the down-up-down-down-up thing and never could get it. When I first started playing mandolin I had an interest in learning Trad. Irish, and apparently this picking pattern is pretty much Trad. Irish 101.  Needless to say, I'm not Trad. Irish player today.

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## Perry

> Oh and it never hurts to go back and practice tunes you already know really, really slowly - focusing on getting the right feel and emphasis in your playing, and in that way developing muscle memory for it all.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jill



Besides being great for building technique I've come to appreciate how nice these tunes are played at moderate, even slow, tempos. Conversely many bluegrass fiddle tunes don't really sound right at slow tempos.

FWIW I try and pick DUD DUD but there are times when crossing strings or whatever that I break the pattern.

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## Loretta Callahan

> Id say learn as many jigs from fiddlers as you want  but dont copy their bow direction for your right hand, because its likely to be, well, less effective. 
> 
> I favour the DUD DUD approach, but only as a guideline. Its really good for maintaining the underlying pulse of the tune. I start off with it as a default, but really it depends on whats happening in the tune.


Bingo, Trevor.  You said what I was trying to convey much clearer.  I listen to fiddlers constantly to learn tunes, but not to learn pick style and direction.  I mean, who couldn't learn from Martin Hayes!  Achieving a rhythm on a fiddle takes a different set of skills than on a mandolin: plectrum vs bow. 

And yes, I'm learning that the DUD DUD isn't set in stone for jigs.  I'm just very happy that I really dug in and learned that technique.  The process really allowed me to hear myself and to feel comfortable with jig picking in general.  Perhaps my teacher could see that there was some "stuckness" for me to get over.  If he did .. it worked.

I'm much more relaxed with my playing now than in February, Dagger ... being able to change pick direction has done loads for my confidence.

Please repeat yourself, Jill; I'm all ears!

Perry: yes, I break the pattern sometimes as well ... depending on note and string changes.  Just knowing I can venture from DUDUDU ... is just plain awesome. :Grin: 

 I, too, enjoy how these Irish Trad/Celtic/whatever tunes can be played at different tempos as well.  I'm learning to "love slowing down".

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## crisscross

"It's harder to relearn a tune the right way, than it is to learn a new one the right way."

It is even easyer to learn a new technique, while learning a new instrument :Smile: 
I always played DUD UDU, but when I got my new Tenor Banjo, I thought, why not try a new approach and practised "Haste to the Wedding " in DUD DUD fashion.
It kind of worked out, not incredibly fast yet, but kind of even.
https://soundcloud.com/tele1310/haste-to-the-wedding

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Loretta Callahan

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## Colin Lindsay

> I, too, enjoy how these Irish Trad/Celtic/whatever tunes can be played at different tempos as well.  I'm learning to "love slowing down".


Many of these tunes should be played in a recognisable dance rhythm i.e. so as people can dance along with them. A lot of players, even on professional recordings, just thrash away and it sounds terrible. Slow it down, get a nice rhythm and get peoples feet tapping. This is one I wrote a few years back for a recording and its played with a nice steady tempo on a Williams Gazuki:
https://soundcloud.com/corncrake/the...ig-the-road-to
Actually its  a pair called 'The Shelter Jig' plus 'The Road to Astros', which is the Greek town where I wrote the second one to follow the first for a performance the coast road goes up and down and in and out, a bit like the tune or a bit like the whistle-player who wasnt au fait with it and played his own version..  :Smile:

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## Richard Eskite

Well, the way I learned it, jigs are ONE-two-three-ONE-two-three.  D-u-d-D-u-d.  Hop jigs are ONE-two-three-FOUR-five-six, ONE-two-three-FOUR-five-six.  For myself, this is a philosophical ideal which is only occasionally approachable in reality, but if you really listen to the music and insist that the emphasized notes are played with a down stroke, then it's a valid rule.

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## rwesleycarr

Here's my humble opinion on the issue :-)

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John Kelly, 

John MacPhee

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## Dagger Gordon

It's been a while since I've seen much on this hoary old question.

I enjoyed the feature on Ashley Broder today, and some comments she made reminded me of it.

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/c...-Ashley-Broder

She said, in response to the question  "From a classically-trained viewpoint, how important is pick direction?":

"I am very aware of it, and I feel like it's become instinctual at this point, weaker beats with an upstroke, stronger beats with a down. I don't really have to work it out anymore, unless there's some really weird situation like a slip jig. Jigs are usually the culprit with me, anyway. I've never been a fan of the down/up/down/down/up/down/down/up. I don't like that sound at all. I usually end up alternating all the way through, depending on the tune, though I probably end up doing a lot more ups in jigs than reels. "

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Randi Gormley

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