# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  Mon tunes

## Zed

Does such a thing exist as a list of all songs written by Monroe (or maybe claimed to be written by him)?

----------


## Jmoss

I think Evan Reilly might be the one to talk to about
a list of Monroe tunes. #I can tell you that any list
that exists is only an approximation as there were many
tunes that did not have names. #Monroe gave me about 10
to record which he had no intention of recording because
he had written so many and would continue to write more,
but wanted to get them recorded. #He only named a couple
of these. #Being the kind of sporting guy that I am
when I record, or will record, them I don't/won't identify them. 
I name them with an Monroe appropriate name. #If you 
are a true Monroe aficionado, you will know them when you
hear them. #I just like the mystery of it all, like the Freemasons.

Also, I cannot be the only one whom Monroe did this with.
I remember Baker saying in front of Monroe that he, Monroe,
wrote a new tune every 4 days. 

Jim Moss
FWB

----------


## evanreilly

I don't have anything like a 'complete' list or collection of all of Monroe's 'tunes' and/or songs. There are a lot and I keep finding new ones.
There are tons of tunes he wrote for a specific place/event/show and maybe played once at that venue; if they weren't recorded, they are gone.

----------


## Jmoss

I should dig out the tape of our all night jam
at Bill's house and see if there are any gems there. 
I have so many live tapes that I only remember the
tapes I had on heavy rotation. 

Julia was there... boy... Julia back then was one
of those things in life that make you realize that 
you are alive.  She was soooo perrrrty! Va Voom!

...gosh... Wake Up Jim!

----------


## GTison

Hey Jim, isn't that a tune also? "Beautiful Julia LaBella".

----------


## evanreilly

Yep, Ole Bill wrote a tune by that name for that lady!

----------


## Jmoss

I guess he couldn't very well call it "Voluptuous Julia LaBella"... 

I am in contact with her by email from time to time.
She gets around.

----------


## Zed

I'm not really after an exhaustive list or anything like that. I'd just like to have a list of titles of most of what he wrote.

I've heard that he was quite a prolific writer and was still writing tunes in his head lying on his hospital bed in his last days/hours.

----------


## Jmoss

Have you tried searching the web using Google?

You know that he didn't write Big Sandy River.
I also heard that he didn't write Big Mon either.
He did write a lot though...

----------


## swampstomper

Get the Rosenberg discography. It is out of print but probably you can find on amazon or e-bay. This has all the official ones up till the mid 80's (??). Be aware Mon used pseudonyms like Joe Ahr and James B Smith; Rosenberg discusses this. I heard a rumour this is being updated now that Mon is not writing any more tunes (although I think he's being channeled by David Long and Mike Compton...)

----------


## AlanN

One story told many times is that for Lonesome Moonlight Waltz, he came up with the first half, and likely did not do the 2nd half, maybe Richard Greene. The more erudite on this board can confirm or deny.

----------


## Jmoss

I have a tape of Bill teaching Moonlight Waltz to Richard.
He plays it the old way, the way I recorded it on Sleeping
Lady and I think the way Richard recorded it, or at least
plays it. When Baker recorded it, it had a different B part. 
Once when I was studying fiddle at Baker's farm I asked 
him about this, why would they ruin a perfectly great tune? 
Well, he said that it was him, Baker, who changed 
the B part. He said that it was his idea to record it and
as Monroe hadn't played it in ages, he went along with 
the way Baker said the B part went. It was not the same
as Monroe taught Richard, and in my opinion is not as blue.
Baker liked it though, of course, probably because it was more 
like the swing fiddle he had played than blues.  

Monroe did not like swing... He always complained about
the amount of swing Baker might put into a tune. 
I liked the swing parts, but not on this tune. 

I might have that recording of Monroe and Richard online
somewhere. I will check. I know Evan Reilly has it because
I gave it to him.

Jim Moss
FWB

----------


## Zed

> Have you tried searching the web using Google?
> 
> You know that he didn't write Big Sandy River.
> I also heard that he didn't write Big Mon either.
> He did write a lot though...


Well.... i have some... not extensively i guess. It's the kind of thing that's a bit hard to nail down with a search. You can find discographies, etc but without a lot of further digging and research still don't really know the origin of all the tunes on that particular release.

Is the Rosenberg discography a book? I'll have to see if i can track one down... it sounds like what i'm after. 

I think i'd heard one time that he didn't write Big Mon. Didn't know about BSR.

I'd like to hear the Monroe/Green tape if you happen to put it up, Jim.

----------


## Jmoss

Kenny Baker wrote Big Sandy River.
Monroe let Baker record it on his album if he 
gave him credit for writing it.

So, as Baker said to me, "one half of something is
a lot more than all of nothing". #Baker made
good money off of that recording being on Bill's album.

I think Bobby Hicks and someone else wrote Big Mon.

The Monroe teaching Green tape... #Rowan and sometimes 
Del play guitar as I remember. #I think Del was on the
way out and Peter was on the way in. #That would be 
a good addition to my online collection. #I just need
the time to get it done is all. #I might have that
transferred to CD already. #If so it would not be that
hard to go from CD to mp3. #

Jim Moss
FWB

----------


## evanreilly

Big Mon:

"...was written in South Dakota. We was playing a square dance out there and it was wrote on the stage."

Charlie Cline and Bobby Hicks were the fiddlers on stage that night and it was their improvisation that generated the basis of the tune.

From the notes to the Bear Family 1950 -1959 Bill Monroe collection.

----------


## Moose

Ah!! - Charlie Cline AND Bobby Hicks! - together - now THAT's "goosebump" music. Joe Stuart...the Bluegrass Boy "for all seasons"(and gigs!)

----------


## evanreilly

I was able to purchase a copy of Rosenberg's _Discography_ on Ebay after a good friend tipped me off about it. It was marked up a bit, but it was all there.
There are used book dealers who accept want lists online.

To the best of my knowledge, the update to the _Discography_ is in the final stages. I had thought it was scheduled to appear this year, but have heard that a lot of double-checking of data was required after the proof copies were circulated.

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Get the Rosenberg discography. It is out of print but probably you can find on amazon or e-bay. This has all the official ones up till the mid 80's (??). Be aware Mon used pseudonyms like Joe Ahr and James B Smith; Rosenberg discusses this. I heard a rumour this is being updated now that Mon is not writing any more tunes (although I think he's being channeled by David Long and Mike Compton...)


The Rosenberg discography covers Monroe's recordings
up until the Bean Blossom album in the 70's

I had a brief correspondence with Neil recently
about a few discographic details. He told me that he and Charles Wolfe
have completed a book titled "The Music of Bill Monroe",
to be published by the U of Illinois Press.

It will include a complete and corrected discography.

----------


## Peter Hackman

> I have a tape of Bill teaching Moonlight Waltz to Richard.
> He plays it the old way, the way I recorded it on Sleeping
> Lady and I think the way Richard recorded it, or at least
> plays it. When Baker recorded it, it had a different B part. 
> Once when I was studying fiddle at Baker's farm I asked 
> him about this, why would they ruin a perfectly great tune?


Is the old version the same as the one that Monroe
played with Doc Watson on the Smithsonian CD?
Sounds a bit confused to me.

----------


## Jmoss

The same recording? No. #The one I am talking about is
the recording made on the bus. #I don't have the 
Smithsonian CD so I cannot say if it is the same version.
I have an archive of probably over 1500 hours 
of live shows and that is what I listen to. 
These shows include the banter and the music.
As I understand the Smithsonian CDs only have
the music. #By the way, there are lots of shows
on tape with Charlie Cline and Bobby Hicks.
I also made a lot of 1970s to 1984 recordings myself. 
When people help us get gigs I give them access
to the stuff I have online. #I think there is some
on a web site called (somthing)box too. #
I am not brave enough to just stick other band's
recordings out there online for all to see, very risky. #
I really think that anyone serious about learning Bluegrass
these days should have a collection of live shows going. 

Jim Moss
FWB

----------


## Zed

I'll have to see if i can locate Discography. Sounds like the new edition will be interesting as well.

http://www.wku.edu/folkstudies/bgcon.../schedule.html
Bottom of the page this site says:
"Now in press is his book with Charles Wolfe, The Music of Bill Monroe, a bio-discography that updates his long out-of-print Bill Monroe and His Blue Grass Boys: An Illustrated Discography (1974)."

Another site, mentioning Wolfe, says:
"...Wolfe said he has two works in progress: The Bristol Sessions, which is due out any day and published by McFarland Press of North Carolina, and The Music of Bill Monroe (University of Illinois Press), which looks to have a 2006 publication date"


Studio recordings of anyone these days interest me very little. I always look for live stuff. That's where the real action is and you know what you're getting there is the real deal.

----------


## John Ritchhart

All very interesting, Jim, but do you have a picture of Julia?!!

----------


## evanreilly

Here is the tune Beautiful Julia LaBella, as played by Bill Monroe. Someone else can post a picture.

If this is in fact a tune from Jim Moss' collection, dating back to some old trading, a public "thanks" to him for sharing.

Enjoy!

----------


## Jmoss

Well, I don't have an early picture of Julia.#I was making
recordings back then, but not photos. #Would like to see 
one though. #I didn't have a very good camera until 1997. 

I was hoping Evan would post the recording of Monroe on the
bus teaching Richard Greene how to play Moonlight Waltz. #
I don't remember knowing of a tune called Beautiful Julia 
LaBella until these posts. I might have heard it. #I will 
need to listen to it.

Jim Moss
FWB

----------


## GTison

There's a picture of Julia in one of the books about Monroe. I don't recall which book though.

Hey Jim, this goes back to my old question about Tanyards. Does your recorded version sound like Evan's Mp3 of Monroe doing it alone or does it sound more like Butch Robbins' version. It seems they are different. I assume Evan's MP3is still posted somewhere.

----------


## Jmoss

Well...
I am not up on either my version or Butch's at this
moment in time. I don't really play the tune often,
it is a bit dark for what I do these days. 
That said, the following might be interesting to read
to understand how I came to record the version I did
as Bill changed it when I got to Nashville.
http://www.candlewater.com/interviews/story008.html

This too might be a little interesting:
http://www.candlewater.com/interviews/story009.html

These were my memories sometime back.

Now, the version of Moonlight Waltz is what Baker played
to us in the field at 4 am back in Bean Blossom 1973 when,
I think, he had just learned it from Bill. 

When I recorded that, I was very intent on capturing the tune's 
feel as Baker had played it back then. This was very different 
from his recording of it on album. The version I recorded in 
that field that night had magic in it. It was as if it channeled the 
very souls of the tragically heart broken. I have a reputation 
for not being satisfied with performances and this comes from
my desire to capture what I have in my head on tape. In this
case it was the melody and feel of this 1973 field recording.
The other was getting Bob Black to play the break he use to 
play on Walkin in my Sleep on my project. He kept wanting
to play in his "new style" and I was adamant about that old
melody... which I happened to have recorded back in the field
at Bean Blossom with Kenny Baker in 1975. When working
on a project that I am producing, things can get tense... and I 
am not one to back away from a concept. That said, I always
make sure that the people on my recordings sound great.
I was producing the sessions on Bob's CD Banjoy at this 
time also. We were in the studio for 23 days straight,
12 were for me and 11 for Bob. I supplied the band too.
That was 23 days of cold cuts and Denny's food. 

Jim Moss
FWB

----------


## Moose

JMOSS: I am certainly impressed...,with your dedication, understanding and wealth-of-knowledge re: Mr. Monroe, recording/engineering, other "greats"- including Mr. Wakefield - and just anything Bluegrass-related. I realize "it ain't the money ; it's the....prestige." - Plese carry on ; I certainly appreciate and value your vast knowlege of the above-mentioned subject(s)- Moose.

----------


## Jmoss

Thanks Moose.
Ever since I got interested in this music it seems 
I have been trying to get access to information in
one form or another. #Seemed to me early on that the
folks with the information were not that willing to
share it. #Information like important recordings that
would help young players... 

When it came to recording it was recording methods
and techniques. #I just had to dig and dig. #
So, I like to share as much as I can when I can.
Monroe said we could trade his live recordings with others
as long as we didn't sell them. #He believed that his
music should be shared with musicians so that more 
could learn from it. # 

I try to keep this off-line as much as possible these days,
hence, the time limit here.

I have been working on collecting recordings like this
since 1970. #I have over 1500 hours of shows and hope 
to get them into a public library someday.

----------


## Coy Wylie

Is it just me or does "Julia" bear a resemblance to "Blue Moon of Kentucky." It's a very similar melody set in waltz time.

----------


## Jmoss

I need to deactivate the web site shortly.
Hope you all had a chance to download it.
Now you should share it. #I suggest you try
to learn the break on On and On.
When you think you have it, go back and 
listen again to the recording. #It is pretty
complex when you get into it.

Jim Moss

----------


## Vincent

I missed the window to download this clip- anybody willing to send it to me? On and On is a favorite break...

----------


## evanreilly

R.I.P. William Smith Monroe. b: 9/13/11; d: 9/9/96

----------


## Jmoss

Did anyone capture the two mp3 files? 
I might do this again sometime, but only if it was useful. #
I would prefer to handle this as part of an email list, 
but I might run a limited link again. 

Jim Moss
FWB

----------


## Zed

I'll sure snag anything like this you'd care to make available, Jim, and appreciate you doing it. I'm on your mailing list so using that is fine.

----------


## glauber

I got the files; don't have space to put them up, but could mail a CD to whoever's interested (as long as it's not too many). PM me. I would love to be in the mailing list.

----------


## Jmoss

Six hour limited posting time.

----------


## glauber

Better start tracking this topic

----------


## evanreilly

Thanks again, Jim!
By any chance do you have an accurate listing of the tunes; there are some I am not sure about.
Great version of 'Smoky Mountain Schottische'.
My guess is it is Rowan on guitar, since he was in the BGB at the time Greene was.

----------


## glauber

Suggestion: if the tapes are mono, you could make mono MP3s and have them be half the size with the same sound quality.

----------


## evanreilly

And there is the enigmatic little fragment of 'Our Secret Love'.

----------


## Zed

Way cool... thanks again, Jim.

----------


## Jmoss

Yes, you should keep an eye on this topic.
You will need to act fast and please don't 
quote my links if you want me to keep this up. 
That makes for more work for me on this end.

Some are mono some are stereo... #I guess
I have to get them to CD first, which for these
I had already done, then rip them. #I can see about
ripping them in mono.

As far as a list of songs goes, why don't you 
folks make up the lists for each file then
make it available here or send it to me.
That would be a nice thing to do. #:-

----------


## evanreilly

Well, amazingly enough, after poking around I found a partial 'set list' for the Bus Tape.

Here it is; additional input/commentary/corrections gladly accepted:

Track(s)    Selection
1         Lonesome Moonlight Waltz
2         Waltz melody (in G, speeds off about a half step)
3         Waltz melody (in A, ditto)
4         Roxanna Waltz
5         Kentucky Waltz
6 & 7      Smoky Mountain Schottische
8         Methodist Preacher
9         Blues (in schottische time?)
10        We Tried To Keep Our Love A Secret
11 & 12    Jenny Lynn
13        Done Gone
14 & 15    Raggedy Anne
16        Watson Blues
17        Paddy On The Turnpike
18        Wednesday Night Waltz (fragments)
19        Tune in D (with Greene, Grier, & Rowan)
20 & 21    Heel And Toe Polka
22        Chicken Reel
23        The Dead March

----------


## evanreilly

Okay, Jim Moss has handed out the goodies today; whom else is going to share?
And, a sincere "Thanks" for sharing that material!

----------


## Jmoss

At the time of this tape, Del was on the way out
and Rowan was on the way in. #I know that somewhere
on this or an adjacent tape there is Del singing
with the band, but Peter is playing on most of it. #
You can hear it the difference.

----------


## Zed

Thanks for the track list, Evan. I've never heard most of this stuff so very nice to know what it is.

----------


## glauber

> please don't 
> quote my links if you want me to keep this up. 
> That makes for more work for me on this end.


Sorry about that. Deleted.

----------


## Spruce

I've got "The Lee Weddin' Tune (maybe?)" for #9 on one of my Bus setlists....

----------


## GnomeGrown

Thanks so much for sharing!!!
Bless everyone who takes the time to tape and share such wonderful tunes!

Have you ever thought of putting this material up on BluegrassBox...there is a treasure trove of good recordings being preserved there, as well as the live music archive...

Of course, that would require the tunes be compressed in a loss-less (NON Mp3) format, which is better for archival purposes, but perhaps not as easy to share...

Thanks again, will be checkin back with this thread often I imagine

----------


## Jmoss

Bart,
these recordings were not all that good to begin with.
In most cases I have tried to improve the recordings with
EQ or other things, but in some cases the recordings are
just too far down the copy chain or were poor in the first place.
In a lot of cases I have had access to the actual tape that was
made at the time, then we have something to work with.
I don't think FLAC will help with the poor copies. 
Also, even less people will be able to access them as FLAC 
is less popular than mp3. #How much smaller would a FLAC 
be anyway? #I have it here, but it is not as easy to do and
you don't want me to have to work hard to do this. #I might
lose interest. #I agree that the mp3 recorders are awful, 
but I am not sure that conversion software is as bad. 

You have to consider that there was a time when musicians 
were very happy to have access to rare recordings like this
in any form, a time before CDs. # Most of us would never 
complain about the finer points of loss, considering we were 
working with old cheap reel to reel recorders at best and 
poor cassettes at worst. #We wanted to learn from what the 
musicians were doing and maybe doing different at each time. #
These are not intended to replace studio recordings and 
never were. #These are intended to help broaden the 
understanding of the music by having the ability
to hear it in a more organic state. #The bus tapes, of which
this was one, are trash from a quality standpoint, but golden
from the point of view of being able to be there back then
when some of you were not even born yet. # To be able to
sit there with Richard as Monroe teaches you how he wants
the tunes played is to many of us priceless.

Also, I tried to access BluegrassBox and they seem to 
want me to join something. #What is with that?
This is going to cost somewhere down the road of time
and at that point we will have broken Monroe's request. #
Remember, Monroe said we could trade these if we didn't 
sell them.

I think I will stay with mp3 for now, however, there
are some recordings I don't feel good about posting here.
For these I would suggest that interested parties contact
me at FWB@Candlewater.com with the text "RARERECORDINGS: " in 
the subject line.

----------


## Zed

Is #16 actually You'll Find Her Name Written There? Or did "Watson Blues" later become YFHNWT? Either way, the A part is identical.




> Well, amazingly enough, after poking around I found a partial 'set list' for the Bus Tape.
> 
> Here it is; additional input/commentary/corrections gladly accepted:
> 
> Track(s) # # # Selection
> 1 # # # # # # # # Lonesome Moonlight Waltz
> 2 # # # # # # # # Waltz melody (in G, speeds off about a half step)
> 3 # # # # # # # # Waltz melody (in A, ditto)
> 4 # # # # # # # # Roxanna Waltz
> ...

----------


## evanreilly

I think that Bill wrote 'Watson's Blues' off of 'You'll Find Her Name Written There', which was recorded December 31st, 1954.
My understanding is that 'Watson's Blues' was something Bill & Doc Watson worked up while they were working at the Ash Grove club in 1963(??).
Probably Bill was noodling on the melody out back and Doc added the guitar run; new tune!

----------


## glauber

> My understanding is that 'Watson's Blues' was something Bill & Doc Watson worked up while they were working at the Ash Grove club in 1963(??).


That's what Bill says when he introduces the tune, in the Folkways album. It's late and memory's fuzzy right now, but didn't he say that Doc was playing a blues riff and Bill liked it and transformed it into a tune? I think he says something about trying to use different musical forms (blues) to broaden the appeal of bluegrass.

----------


## GTison

does anyone have the entire song " We tried to keep our love a secret" ? This is the only place I've ever heard of this one.

----------


## GTison

[QUOTE]  I think he says something about trying to use different musical forms (blues) to broaden the appeal of bluegrass. 


That may be true. But I've also got a tape of him disapproving of Vassar Clements and others changing the time of tunes and making them into a different style.  A PARADOX at least.

----------


## glauber

Nope. The fact that it's ok for Bill to do it doesn't mean it's ok for anybody else!

----------


## Jmoss

Limited Time: 9-14-05
Bill Monroe on air 1960's mp3 #(001)
Jim Moss
FWB

9-15-05: This file has been removed.


-&gt;

----------


## evanreilly

The latest offering that Jim Moss has put up has stuff I never heard.
A dobro playing with the BGB on 'Foggy Mountain Special'!

----------


## GTison

WHERE IS IT? IS IT ALREADY GONE?

----------


## Zed

> The latest offering that Jim Moss has put up has stuff I never heard.
> A dobro playing with the BGB on 'Foggy Mountain Special'!


Yeah! Dobro! Who was it? The style sounds very much like Mike Auldridge... not sure where he was at that time. Sounds a bit like Jerry Douglas but that was before his time, i think.

----------


## Jmoss

> WHERE IS IT? IS IT ALREADY GONE?


Just so everyone here sees this post: I will post more 
here, however, there are some recordings I don't feel good 
about posting here. I can post these in the next weeks. 
For these I would suggest that interested parties contact
me at FWB@Candlewater.com with the text "RARERECORDINGS: " in 
the subject line.

----------


## glauber

I'll be away from fryday to monday. Don't post anything until i come back!

----------


## Jmoss

To the RARERECORDINGS listeners group:

I think I might wait for someone to post (here)
a list of songs before I post anymore files. 
I think it is needed and a good thing to do.
It would be too much to ask, so I won't, to 
have the musicians listed, however, that would 
be really great for all listeners to these down
the road. 

I understand that many listeners might not know the 
tunes and therefore not be able to identify them. 
For this I think Evan Reilly, Zeek, or someone who
may recognize the tunes could chime in.  
There is some cryptic stuff down the road which I don't
know that even Evan will be able to identify, but we will see.
I am just getting warmed up.
The stuff I have presented so far should be pretty identifiable
from the lyrics. Think of this as a work for the people listening
down the road a few years. 

I wonder how long, pages, we can make this topic last?
Jim Moss
FWB
&lt;-

----------


## glauber

Hello, Jim,

i think the idea to wait until someone posts a song list is good and fair. Plus it lets people have time to listen to the recordings - which is the point, really - instead of overwhelming them with quantity. I'll take a crack at the bus tape when i come back from vacation, but unfortunately i'm new at this stuff and i don't know many bluegrass tunes.

Thanks again,

glauber

----------


## Jmoss

If you could work on the last link with Monroe
on the air, that would best for me. #I think they
have a list here of the bus tape. #There are more
bus tapes too. #I think I might have some of them.
Of course I have the ones I made, but the ones 
that others made cover more tunes. Digging through
these tapes are like getting on a time machine 
and just dropping in on a time in Bluegrass history.
I have some that were made in peoples homes
and some big biscuits were there for some reason.

oh... by the way we have an east coast schedule happening:

THE FRANK WAKEFIELD BAND
NOVEMBER SHOWS IN #NY & CT

Friday November 11, 2005
Parting Glass
Showtime 9:30 pm
Saratoga Springs, NY


Saturday November 12, 2005
The Baggot Inn
Showtime 8:00 pm
West Village, New York, NY


Tuesday November 15, 2005
Joyous Lake
Showtime 8:00 pm
42 Mill Hill Road
Woodstock, NY


Wednesday November 16, 2005
Turning Point Café
Showtime 8:00 pm
468 Piermont Ave.
Piermont, NY


Friday November 18, 2005
The Kirkland Art Center
Showtime 8:00 pm
East Park Row, Clinton, NY


Saturday November 19, 2005
East Hartford Parks & Rec.
Showtime 7:00 pm
East Hartford, CT
Contact Roger Moss regarding the Group Lessons

We wanted to get to the Boston area, but we have
not secured a venue. #

Info: #
FWB@candlewater.com


Thank you for your support.
Jim Moss
The Frank Wakefield Band

----------


## Zed

> To the RARERECORDINGS listeners group:
> 
> I think I might wait for someone to post (here)
> a list of songs before I post anymore files. #
> I think it is needed and a good thing to do.
> It would be too much to ask, so I won't, to 
> have the musicians listed, however, that would 
> be really great for all listeners to these down
> the road.


Ok... I'll give it a whirl:

1. Arkansas Traveller
2. Footprints in the Snow
3. Gray Eagle
4. Love Come Home
5. &lt;unknown instrumental&gt; w/dobro (sounds a bit like Bluegrass Stomp?)
6. Nashville Blues
7. Sally Good'n
8. Little Joe
9. Lonesome Road Blues (instr)
10. Columbus Stockade Blues
11. Sally Good'n
12. I Live In The Past
13. A Beautiful LIfe
14. Train 45 (w/Monroe vocals)
15. Love Come Home
16. When My Blue Moon Turns to Gold Again

Musicians (nearly as I can tell)
---------------------------------
Bill Monroe - mando, vocals
Byron Berline - fiddle (or "Barn", as Bill calls him  )
Roland White - Guitar
Lamar Grier - Banjo
James Monroe - URB
Vic Jordan - quartet vocals

----------


## Jmoss

Was there more than one fiddler on that tape?
This was at the time when Bill was changing from
Berline to Greene. # 

Also, I am thinking next the 1954 show from Bean Blossom. 
I wonder if this is on the web or if everyone has 
this already?

Jim Moss
FWB

-

----------


## Zed

Seems to be all "Barn" Berline.

I think the '54 BB show is on BluegrassBox. It's titled: "Bill Monroe & The Bluegrass Boys 09/19/54 Brown County Jamboree - Beanblossom".

----------


## Jmoss

Ok, well lets not do that one then.
That is a good one for sure.

What does "Source: SBD&gt;MR&gt;?&gt;CDR" mean?
I digitally copied the tape made by Mr. Hedrick of the
first generation tape that was at the show. That is
Hedrick introducing the tape. The original tape was made
using the early bias systems which seem to me to lack
a stabilizing feedback loop, or AGC as we know it today.
The needles seem to really swing from background to peaks
more than later machines did.  I used a mastering system with
limiting to capture the dynamic range on the dynamic range of the
modern recording systems. This was very typical of these pre 1960s
tapes. The tapes themselves were in great shape with only the
tape splices that had turned to white powder. 

From memory I don't remember a lot of hiss. Hiss may have been a 
product of the other person's (3rd gen) recording efforts or it may have been just 
an old copy, probably be the one that Jerry Garcia made while spending a few
days at Hedrick's house.  Hard to say. At that time in the 1950's the 
power to Bean Blossom was very unstable requiring the use of a Variac
Variable Transformer to keep up with the sagging voltages. 

Jim Moss
FWB

----------


## Zed

> What does "Source: SBD&gt;MR&gt;?&gt;CDR" mean?


Not sure, Jim. MR is maybe MiniDisk Recorder? Just a guess. BluegrassBox has a lot of great material, but some of it is from multiple generations of recordings, mostly by amateurs, so i'm sure the quality suffers.

----------


## evanreilly

Hummm....

First cut is clearly 'Arkansas Traveller'
Footprints in the Snow
Grey Eagle
Love, Come Home
Foggy Mountain Special (with dobro)
Nashville Blues (probably Earl on banjo: 'bending it')
Sally Goodin
Little Joe
Lonesome Road Blues
Columbus Stockade (with Lloyd Buzzen??)
Sally G.
I Live in the Past
A Beautiful Life
Watermelons Hangin' on the Vine
Train 45
Love, Come Home
When My Blue Moon Turns to Gold Again

I don't think Richard Greene is present on this tape. This is the band following the Rowan-Greene band; altho Lamar is on a few cuts.

The BGB are as I hear it, James William, Roland White, both Lamar and Vic Jordan on banjo (different broadcasts) and Byron Berline on fiddle.
The singer on 'Columbus Stockade Blues' sounds like Lloyd Buzzen; but i am not sure of tne exact name.

----------


## evanreilly

Ole Marvin Hedrick....
Made the first recordings at Bean Blossom.
His recordings are where Garcia learned "I Ain't Broke" and 'KNocking at your Door(?)".

----------


## Zed

> First cut is clearly 'Arkansas Traveller'


Oops.... my bad. I'm not very familiar with AT.

----------


## Zed

> Nashville Blues (probably Earl on banjo: 'bending it')


Would Earl and Bill have been on the same stage (at the same time), especially the Opry, in the 60s?

----------


## evanreilly

I am not sure that Bill would have appeared with Earl on the Opry, but the two tunes with Dobro are clearly Scruggs tunes. They never appear in live Monroe recordings; they were not 'his' tunes. So, I suspect it is Earl playing.

----------


## Zed

I guess it must have been a different segment of the show... or maybe even from a different show altogether. I was just thinking of it as being the Monroe part of the show. I guess the dobro should have been my first clue.

----------


## Jmoss

> I am not sure that Bill would have appeared with Earl on the Opry, but the two tunes with Dobro are clearly Scruggs tunes. They never appear in live Monroe recordings; they were not 'his' tunes. So, I suspect it is Earl playing.


Well, Earl would not be with Bill at this time.
It could be someone else, or it could be another band.
I need to listen to it again. # I have listened to these
millions of times since the 1970's, but not all the way
through lately.

Jim Moss


Ok, I am listening now.
Foggy Mountain Special (with dobro)
That does sound like another band, but it does not sound
like Lester on those G runs. #It sounds like Paul Warren's
break though. So, it might be the band, but Earl must
have borrowed someones banjo because it sounds like
it is buzzing.

Nashville Blues 
This is cleanly not Earl or any part of that band.
The banjo is too lame. #At the end of the song
they ask about bending the neck and the announcer
says, "aw come on Johnny".
I am not sure who it is. #It is not Bill's band for sure.

I think these are segments from many different shows over
a part of time. #They would only have a few songs a night
on this show, remember. Just as is the case today. #
I would say 3 songs and that was it for that portion, then
they might come back later for another 3 songs. This way
they would rotate the bands. This tape is part of a 
series that I have here which band members moving
through the band. #I have more just like these that were
recorded by Baker from a later period. # #

I always found digging through these tapes fun.
I have one where Bill has a steel player in the band
for a song and he says, "I have to get that boy into 
the band". # Of course he was joking...

On Lonesome Road Blues, I have to say that the bass
playing would get to me. #He is rushing like crazy.
I am not a fan of Berline's playing in this band outside
of the fiddle tunes. #I don't think he was very good at
backup at this time. #The band seems to wander time wise
and that might be tripping him up. #Berline's Sally Gooden
is the definitive version for Bluegrass for sure, even
Baker said that. #He doesn't seem to have problems driving 
through the bass playing with tunes.

Notice that Berline seems to have been listening to 
Scotty Stoneman with his backup. #Next would be Richard
Greene who would take the Scotty Stoneman style even
further. #If you look at my interview with Richard Greene
you see that he was totally influenced by Scotty.

In Berline's playing you can hear some of the origins
of Dawg music. I remember Darrel Anger talking back stage 
about that whacking sound that Berline gets at one of the 
first fund raising events for the CBA. This was where we all played 
for free to raise money to get it started. This was at a time when
Grisman was just putting together his first band. This sound comes 
from the way Berline pulls the bow. I think that this whacking sound
developed into the Dawg rhythm chomp, and now has become
the rhythm sound of all modern so called Bluegrass bands. 
This sound is not the same as Bill's sound, by any means. 

Those were the days. 
Banjo players could keep time back then.

----------


## Peter Hackman

[QUOTE= (Jmoss @ Sep. 18 2005, 01:37)]


> I am not sure that 
> 
> Notice that Berline seems to have been listening to 
> Scotty Stoneman with his backup. Next would be Richard
> Greene who would take the Scotty Stoneman style even
> further. If you look at my interview with Richard Greene
> you see that he was totally influenced by Scotty.


Yet Stoneman phrased wilder, across bar lines and
four-bar periods. He did this 
quite naturally, which is hard,
given the relatively simple and square harmonic base.

A bit odd, as Greene was into a lot of genres, including 
contemporary jazz, where the attitude towards bars
and periods is much freer.
 For example, he recorded with
vibraphonist Gary Burton in 1969 or 1970.

----------


## evanreilly

I couldn't figure out how Bill could stand to play with that bass player; I had no idea what that was the result of.
No BGB ever played like that.
Scotty Stoneman! There is some fiddling!

----------


## fredfrank

So what is up with this hit and run posting of these tunes? I thought you wanted to share. Only sharing for little snippits of time?

----------


## evanreilly

Jim Moss has shared huge amounts of archival materials on his website.
He also for years has been freely circulating and trading some of his unique and vintage materials.
He recently began leaving messages on the big 'Cafe chalkboard where some of his gems can be found.
He has the real stuff; he shares it.
Many more have stuff, but don't share or trade.

----------


## fredfrank

But apparently you have to be in the right place at exactly the right time!

----------


## Jmoss

[quote=fredfrank,Sep. 18 2005, 14:50]But apparently you have to be in the right place at exactly the right time!
-------------------------

Well, you just need to be in the right place at the
right time or be alerted to when the right time is, right? 
Read back over my posts on the last page or so and send me
an email so that you can be notified when the right time is. #
Once you have the file you have it and don't need me 
to get it anymore. #

So, did you miss out on the posts so far?
I might make a one time group link email where those who
missed the chance can catch up. #You have to remember
that these take disk space and... well just read my posts
here on this subject. #I think you should send me an email
per my instructions on this thread, if you haven't already.

Jim Moss

----------


## Jmoss

> I couldn't figure out how Bill could stand to play with that bass player; I had no idea what that was the result of.
> No BGB ever played like that.
> Scotty Stoneman! There is some fiddling!


 
Regarding the Bass, think about who is playing it?
I think that explains a lot. He was probably drafted.

----------


## Zed

Was Bessie still around at this time? I thought she usually played better bas than this, tho?

----------


## Jmoss

> Was Bessie still around at this time? I thought she usually played better bas than this, tho?


Nope...

starts with a J ends with a E

----------


## Zed

Heh... oh yeah... forgot i think he's actually mentioned on the tape. Yikes.

----------


## evanreilly

ahhhh.... I didn't think it was James William...it is really bad!

----------


## Jmoss

You mean like this band here?

 #
Well, if someone asked me I would have to say that 
I think this photo take by Jim Peva is largely the band 
on the tape. #I don't see the guitar here. #

Jim Moss
FWB

----------


## Jmoss

Bill Monroe at Bean Blossom 1954 (with Edd Mayfield & Charlie Cline)

&lt;-

----------


## evanreilly

Yeah, and you cleaned up the sound very well!
The other copy floating around does not have 'Bugle Call Rag' on it.

----------


## Zed

Thanks, Jim... this is much cleaner and clearer than the other (of course). I can actually hear all the jokes now (whether that's good or not, i'm not sure  )

----------


## Jmoss

This show is a classic and has Monroe clearly singing
in tune without a problem at all. Monroe later sang
flat, but in 1954 this was not the case. I am not sure
where he began singing flat, but I have heard it was after
his car crash. 

Jim Moss

----------


## Jmoss

Early Jesse McReynolds practicing mandolin in his trailer. 
Prattville, Alabama 1963

This file has been removed.

Jim Moss
FWB

----------


## Zed

It's really amazing what Jesse does... with a flat pick. I do a little cross-picking so it's really neat to hear him solo so clear and clean. Wonder if he's playing a Stiver here? I think his current Stiver is a '78 so wouldn't be that one, obviously.

----------


## Spruce

That picture is facinating.....

Those are fan's mics onstage taping the show...

An EV 664, a Wollensak tape recorder mic that came with the reel-to-reel, and a couple other mics I've never seen before...

In addition to the Shure 55 on the ceiling stand that was the PA mic....

Or at least thats the way I'm reading it....

Kinda predates the Grateful Dead and their "taper's section", no?

----------


## Jmoss

You can hear Jesse working out his playing here.
He started in 1952 or was it 1955. #I think that is
in my interview with him. #I don't know what mandolin
he was playing. #This is a pretty rare tape. #I think all of 
these tapes are a must for gaining an understanding 
of the roots of Bluegrass. #I don't remember hearing 
any of Jesse's records with this stuff on them.

The Monroe photo is from the Bean Blossom Barn.
This does precede the Dead, but it was what caused the
Dead let people tape their shows. #At this time Jerry Garcia
was a Bluegrass banjo player who was at Bean Blossom.
He made a lot of tapes himself while there. #He was 
impressed with Monroe's policy of letting people record
the shows and later would carry that policy to his own 
bands. #He might have been at this show, actually. 

Jim Moss
FWB

----------


## Jmoss

Bill Monroe at Humboldt State Unv Feb. 1973- 
Fiddle: Kenny Baker, Guitar: Joe Stuart, Banjo: Jack Hicks, Bass: Monroe Fields 

Post expired.

Jim Moss

----------


## evanreilly

Now that is a classic Monroe 'Live' show....
Kenny Baker and the great Joe Stuart!!
Thanks again, Jim!

----------


## Jmoss

Are you getting tired of these old recordings or
would you like more?

Jim Moss

----------


## glauber

More!

----------


## Jmoss

I don't think many people downloaded the last post.
I am not sure what to make of that. 

Q: How many of those who download these files 
can a handle Monroe flick encoded with 
Real Player 8 or later video file?

Jim Moss

----------


## Zed

I'd love the flick... let 'er rip.

I for one love these and hope you're able to keep them coming.

----------


## doc holiday

Impossible to get tired of great music, especially live music. This was another great one.  Thanks again Jim

 Doc

----------


## GTison

I dig it! I always like to hear Mon do things he rarelly ever does. Like the version of 'little community churchhouse' and I've never heard him do 'You gotta walk that lonesome Valley'

----------


## Vincent

any and all video is appreciated, Jim. And just because something doesn't get dnloaded by many doesn't mean many aren't interested. Sometimes I just get busy and can't keep up with email offers etc...

and what bowfinger said- I laughed out loud at the recent Monroe show you posted with Cheyenne- it's rare and he sounded good! Peter Rowan was clearly listening... : )

----------


## Zed

> any and all video is appreciated, Jim.


Absolutely! It's the only Bill and Boys i'll ever get to see!

----------


## Jmoss

BILL MONROE SHOW 1984 Video
(REQUIRES REAL PLAYER 8 or higher)

Limited offline Posting.


Read earlier pages of this tread to 
find out how to get on listening list.

----------


## Zed

That's a good time. Bill was sounding pretty darn good. Love hearing Kenny play Jerusalem Ridge. Wayfaring Stranger, too... way cool.

----------


## Coy Wylie

Awesome Jim! There's so little video available.

----------


## GTison

how do I save these files in real player? Can I? or do they just down load every time?

----------


## Jmoss

I don't know for sure. #I think you need
to find the path to the .rm file and copy 
from that. These won't be there long.# 

Making the image larger in encoding took too
much from the sound quality. 

On Jerusalem Ridge do you hear Monroe pushing Kenny?
I don't think they were getting along that weekend.
In the night show Kenny goofs up big time with a 
modulation, after that he is all smiles and jokes.

This was par for the course with these guys. I have a
photo I took at a Denver festival in 1974 where Baker
wanted to go off and Bill made him stick around.
As Bill was walking away I said, "Baker, let me have a 
picture!". #Baker said, "I'll give you a picture!" and he
turned toward Monroe with his fiddle by his side and his
finger sticking out. #You know what I am talking about too.
I don't know where that photo is, but years ago I made 
a blow up on the printer and sent it to him. #I titled it
"The Best In Tension". #

14a) Wayne Lewis Interview Part 1: Life as a Bluegrass Boy:

14b) Wayne Lewis Interview Part 2: Life as a Bluegrass Boy:


Jim Moss

----------


## glauber

> I don't know for sure. I think you need
> to find the path to the .rm file and copy 
> from that. These won't be there long.


Has anyone been able to figure this out?

----------


## glauber

> Originally Posted by  (Jmoss @ Sep. 28 2005, 00:05)
> 
> I don't know for sure. I think you need
> to find the path to the .rm file and copy 
> from that. These won't be there long.
> 
> 
> Has anyone been able to figure this out?


Yes... i did.  

(for geeks only) Play the clip, use "File/Properties" to find out the clip's address. Then use whatever downloading program to download the .rm file. I used curl.

----------


## GnomeGrown

hey Jim thanks again for all the rare offerings.....

been missing a few since I was out of town, but keeping posted again.........


thanks again from everyone!

----------


## Frankmc

Jim ,
    Thanks so much! The sepia tone made it easier to watch
 on the small screen.

  Frank

----------


## Jmoss

The story on the color of this video is
that it was shot with that florescent light
over the stage. #Florescent light looks green.
So I tried to remove the ugly green, but I ended
up with other colors. # I guess we are lucky to have 
this video. #It came from a VHS camera that I thought
at first had lost a color gun, but later realized that
the problem was the florescent lights. #It was shot
by someone at the show. 

It reminds me of how the cassette tape of the show 
where Baker walks off the stage as he quits the band 
was made.

Jim Moss

----------


## Coy Wylie

Both concerts were great Jim. Got more?

----------


## Zed

Yep... the vids are great... the older the better. How early on did the Opry start filming or televising the show? What's the oldest vid of Mon that anyone knows about?

----------


## Frankmc

Jim, Do you know if Monroe ever played Hadleys Town Hall Party out of Compton CA in the late 50's ?

Thanks, Frank

----------


## Jmoss

Yeah, I seem to remember a show called Town Hall Party.
It has been a while since I heard that one, like the 70s.

Jim Moss

----------


## Spruce

_"It reminds me of how the cassette tape of the show 
where Baker walks off the stage as he quits the band 
was made."_

Love to have _that_ one...

----------


## Jmoss

> _"It reminds me of how the cassette tape of the show 
> where Baker walks off the stage as he quits the band 
> was made."_
> 
> Love to have _that_ one... #


 # #
---------
The terms were:
I could not even admit to having a copy.
I don't think they said that I was not to admit that it existed.
It exists! 

So... #I don't know who has one, but if you want to know 
about what happened on that stage that night, #you can ask me. #

I can't tell you what happened before, or after. #
I am sure of that.

You can just believe what have heard knowing that it is 
mostly likely not correct... # not the real story. # 

If you read it in a certain book, you can bet it is not correct!

SO I am going to take the 5th. # 
... in Bluegrass that would be a D.

Maybe in 20 years...

----------


## Spruce

Does it involve "Jeruselem Ridge"? #

----------


## Jmoss

Not really.
It was after Jerusalem Ridge, but had little to
do with it. #It was just the tune that Bill ask
him to play, and nicely at that. On the tape you
can tell that Monroe is shocked by Baker leaving 
the stage. #

There is a real reason here, but it has nothing 
to do with Jerusalem Ridge. #

Baker just used that time for the effect I would 
say... if I could. #You could say it was an opportunity.

Jim Moss

----------


## Jmoss

BGBs 1984 video

Removed.

Jim Moss

----------


## Jmoss

Just posted: 
Bill Monroe at Brown County Jamboree Park 1955 or 1956

Removed

----------


## Coy Wylie

Listening now... great stuff! Thanks Jim.

----------


## Jmoss

Ok, Tom Isenhour has this take on the first file.
-----&#62;
"Okay I did listen to the first one.
My first gut feeling on who I am hearing is for sure Bobby Hicks. #
And my next fiddler would be Charlie Cline.
I've not heard Bobby Hicks. Sounds more 56 than 55 too.
I'm hearing switch offs of Joe Stuart and Roger Smith and guitar and banjo. 

I do not think that is Melissa singing that first song. 
Way to pretty to be her. #I was almost hearing Jim Eanes 
singing too. #On the Charlie songs I hear Joe on banjo. 

Okay heard the rest. #It's Benny Martin for sure fiddling 
on no. 3. Singing on Blue Suede and Me & My Fiddle.
I'm hearing Don Reno on the double banjo stuff and they 
both sound rather drunk in their notes but its them.
Still hearing a lot of Bobby Hicks. #Monroe only on a few 
of the outside stuff. Some other guy playing a rather sloppy 
mandolin but it does sound like Hess playing Monroes Loar. 
I guess Big Mon left to handle other matters for a while.

I get the feeling Bessie Lee was not there this weekend 
unless she is the mystery girl singer. She was after all the
Carolina Songbird. #I dont think Ive heard early recordings 
of Bessie Lee singing. "
&lt;----

Anyone else have thoughts on who this might be?
Jim Moss

----------


## evanreilly

a vast tangle of styles and musicians.
I am listening to 'Little Maggie'.... that isn't even Monroe! Close, but no cigar.
I am pretty sure it is Joe Stuart doing the rockabilly stuff; very good fiddling behind that!
And I bet the twin fiddling is Bobby Hicks on one at least!! excellent twinning!

----------


## Jmoss

Monroe is on the tape though.
I am not listening to it right now, but he 
and Charlie are there on the tape it is clear.

I want to hear more analysis. #This is a tangle 
for sure. #I have wondered if Jesse was in there
somewhere as it would have been just about the time
they started out. #I think he told me 55. #
I hear Benny Martin, I think... #could be a knock off.

Jim Moss
PS: I am BCCing everyone who has requested to be on
the listeners list. If you have requested to be on the
list and have not got an email let me know. You might
be treating BCCs as SPAM.

----------


## evanreilly

I was wondering if that was Patsy Montana doing "Cowboy's Sweetheart"?

----------


## Jmoss

I was wondering that too.

Jim Moss
FWB

----------


## f5loar

A Benny Martin "knock off"! No such thing! There was only one Benny Martin when it comes to fiddle sounds. 
I've seen video of Benny in 1956-58 singing "Me and My Fiddle" and that's him. I doubt Patsy(Ruby Blevins)Montana would hang out behind the barn at Bean Blossom. She was too big of star at this time working steady out of Chicago area WLS Barn Dance.

----------


## Jmoss

Lots of Opry stars came through there, I am
sure Patsy could have too. #I don't know that
she did. #Next I have the Louvin Brothers playing there. #
I think the barn could have been on the way to 
somewhere else on a tour. #I think this was before
Monroe bought the park too.

So, if it is not her who else could it be?

Jim Moss

----------


## f5loar

I'm sticking with Bessie Lee. After all we know Big Mon was there that weekend so Bessie had to be "Close By".

----------


## f5loar

The last few songs on No.1 after Charlie Monroe gets through sounds like a polished duo act. The mandolin playing and tenor singing sounds like Lonzo of Lonzo&Oscar but it don't sound like Oscar singing lead work. How about the Lily Bros? Bailey Bros?

----------


## Moose

f5loar:.... the Louvins', maybe!?? - Ira worked for a while with Charlie Monroe - waaay back.

----------


## Jmoss

The Louvin Brothers 
(@ 18mins) Bill Monroe & the Bluegrass Boys (TOUGH STUFF)
Brown County Jamboree Park 1960s 
Monroe is in a slamming mood on this show.


limited time offline post

----------


## Jmoss

I will be removing this file from the web site later today. 
I think you guys need a break with these files.

Jim Moss

----------


## evanreilly

Take a Break!!!! HA!!!
Great stuff!!

----------


## Spruce

Is there a site that will host MP3s similar to all the sites that will host your pics for free?
Like Village Photos, only for MP3s?

I have a gob of interesting Monroe recordings that I'd love to share...

----------


## glauber

There are a few, like soundclick.com and nowhereradio.com, but you need to check the rules carefully to make sure you retain the rights to the music, etc.

----------


## GTison

doesn't bluegrass box?

----------


## Zed

You might need a break, Jim, but we're still sucking 'em up. I realize it makes extra work for you to put them up so whatever you can do is great.

----------


## Coy Wylie

Thanks for putting these up Jim. I've enjoyed them all. I'll be waiting when you are ready for the next one.

----------


## Zed

I'm watching the vids again... the evening show. Man, what a great break Bill takes on Dear Old Dixie... classic Mon at his very best.

.. and of course Kenny, Mr. Smooth, being his perfectly smooth self  Sick how easy he makes it look. Cuz i know how easy it *AIN'T!!*

----------


## glauber

> doesn't bluegrass box?


Not for MP3s; they use SHN. And if i understand right, BGB is for putting up whole shows, not single songs.

But thanks for mentioning them. I'm listening to one of their webcasts right now. The wealth of stuff that's available due to the generosity of some folks is truly amazing. Enough to never have to buy a CD, unless you really want to...

----------


## Zed

I hadn't heard a lot of Reno & Smiley so that was real treat for me.

----------


## Jmoss

Don was hot stuff. A real nice guy too.
I use to have that show on heavy rotation
in my van. 

Jim Moss

----------


## futrconslr

Thanks Jim, I have listened to it everyday since I downloaded it. Great stuff!

----------


## Moose

"...Don was hot stuff.." - INDEED!! - Scruggs has the right hand - Don Reno HAD(!) the left!!! - RIP Mr. Reno.

----------

