# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Lyon & Healy Style A

## Dimonback

I recently found an old mandolin. It's in extremely good condition but I'm no appraiser, so I'm asking for help in setting a price. I play guitar so will not likely use it much. I've seen similar instruments advertised for well over $3500.

It is serial number 45, which I believe would date it somewhere in the 1920's. It came with the original hard shell case, complete with three keys for the lock, and a Lyon and Healy catalog dated 1947. I have several digital photos but am not sure how to add them to this post. Any help would be appreciated.

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## Schlegel

condition is the critical thing.  These are Very Desirable. Try the attachment command on advanced reply to upload a pic from your computer.

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## Dimonback

Here's some- thank you for the tip.

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## Jim Garber

That is the longer scale model from the earlier series. This scale would be closer to the Gibson scale. Later models were asymmetrical and had a 13 inch scale. Those later ones appeal a little more to the classical players but the earlier ones sound wonderful too.

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## Schlegel

If I were you, 3500 would not be enough.  Are you near a dependable evaluator at all?  On this kind of item an inspection for a clean bill of health could help you greatly in valuation and selling... somebody like Gruhn.  You might even consider consignment if you want the work and worry taken off your hands.

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## Dimonback

I'm in Las Vegas. Have no clue whom I might trust in this town!

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## mrmando

$3500-4000 is about right. I suppose you could list it higher, but it would take a long time to sell.

It's a good idea to have it checked out by a repair shop, but I don't know where in Las Vegas to take it. There's Intermountain Guitar and Banjo in Salt Lake City if you're up for a road trip.

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## Dimonback

More pictures. I'm reluctant to even put on new strings but it rings very sweet even with the rusted old ones on it. Even found some Black Diamond spares in the case- I haven't even heard of those since the 60's.

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## Dimonback

By the way, can anyone come up with a build year?

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## mrmando

It is pre-1923. Remove the tailpiece cover and check the patent date on the tailpiece; that may help. Low serial number may indicate a date as early as 1918 or 1919. It does appear to be in uncommonly good condition.

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## Bill Van Liere

Looks very very clean. 

Wonderful package with the case, strings, keys and catalog.

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## Dimonback

On the tailpiece (not under) it reads "Pat. applied for"

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## mrmando

That tailpiece, designed by Walter Kirk, received its patent on April 15, 1919, and tailpieces made thereafter were stamped "Pat. 1919." So you can safely assume that No. 45 was completed during the three-year period of 1917–19. Given the general sketchiness of records on L&H mandolins, it may not be possible to nail it down further than that.

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## Dimonback

Much appreciated. Now, as suggested earlier in this thread, I'll have it inspected by a local luthier and get it up for sale. Thanks again to all.

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## mrmando

I will say that if it is as clean as it looks in the photos, I wouldn't be afraid to ask $4500 for it. How did you come upon it?

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## Dimonback

One of those lightning strike garage sales.

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## mrmando

You'se a very lucky individual! Methinks you should've gone and dropped $20 on slots the same day in case there was any mojo left over after your find.

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## Dimonback

Near as I can tell, getting lucky in Las Vegas means avoiding casinos.

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## Eddie Sheehy

I break even in Vegas by playing the Change machine...
That's a very nice find - there's one on Ebay for a BIN of $4,000 without the tailpiece cover - mind you it's been there over a month...

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## mrmando

Well, the tailpiece is worth $500, and will be until someone tools up and makes a replica. Eastman chickened out on the tailpiece with their L&H mandola copy. As for the one on eBay, it's been there longer than a month. It was originally listed in "mint condition" even though it's missing the pickguard and original bridge along with the TPC, and either has or used to have a pickup added.

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## 8ch(pl)

You are very lucky to find that instrument at a yard sale.  I know of a Blackface Snakehaed Gibson A that was purchased for $45 at  aYard Sale in New jersey.

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## JeffD

That style, and the assymetrical two pointer, are among the most beautiful mandolin designs. Lovely.

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## Dimonback

Yes, the more I look at it the more I appreciate the quality and sound. And on looking more closely at the pictures of the one on Ebay, there's no comparison between this one and that- his looks 90 years old. This one looks like it sat in the case for most of it's life.

Still having a hard time finding a luthier local. There's a couple of guitar builders I am trying to contact just for a structural inspection.

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## mrmando

Tom Flood is a Vegas-based mandolin builder and Cafe member. I don't think he does repairs but he might be able to check it out.

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## Ron McMillan

It seems I might be the only person wondering about just how 'lucky' it is to buy something for next to nothing - then rushing out to turn your garage sale 'bargain' into a several-thousand-dollar profit. If Dimonback knew what it was worth when he got it dirt cheap, then I feel for the poor folk having the garage sale and who, in effect, got ripped off because they weren't aware of what they were sitting on. ('Ripped off' sounds inflammatory, I know; but if the reverse happens, a seller takes several thousand dollars off an ignorant buyer for an instrument worth a fraction of that price, THAT is a rip off, right?)

We all dream of that elusive find, that great bargain, but I reckon there might be limits to what I would be happy to get my hands on.

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## Dimonback

As you can tell if you read the thread, I did not know what I was looking at when I bought the piece. I'd never heard of the company, and only knew that it was an old mandolin. Only by my own research and the good people on this site have I come to realize what this is. Feel free to take your own risks, as I have, and to honestly come by a find like this. Your comments and sour grapes rancor are noted.

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## JeffD

Our whole community, about 350 families, has a garage sale / yard sale / tag sale on the same day. Folks come from all over on that day.

When I participate, I put out the stuff I don't care about anymore. Stuff I just want gone. If I wanted to investigate the provenance, style, make and model, history and historic importance, of any of it, I would have. But then I would have been interested enough to care, and interested enough to find forums, do reseach, and list it where its most likely to be appreciated. And all that cuts into my mandolin time AND my fishing time. And by definition the stuff is in the yard sale because I don't care. 

Years ago I sold some stuffed animals that had been well loved in the family for many years. I was later informed that one of them was probably worth more than a little to collectors, and if my grandmother had had the foresight to save the original box and packing material it might have been worth a whole lot more than a little. So what. I could tell immediately that the stuffed animal was not a vintage mandolin, nor was it vintage fishing equipment, nor a first edition Ernie Schwiebert, and that was all the information I cared to raise a finger to get on it.


I am sure, like many folks, I more than once have taken a hit for not knowing what I am selling or how to sell it. I acknowledge that up front. I am willing to pay that difference, in order to avoid having to learn about it.

The person who sold it in the garage sale did not, for what ever reason, care to study up on what the mandolin was worth or how to best sell it. That is not a crime. It is costly perhaps, but its a made decision. There is just not enought time to be an expert on everything. As described in the posting, I am having some difficulty figuring out how anyone was taken advantage of.

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## mrmando

The same information that I gave Patrick would have been available to the people he bought the instrument from if they had cared to do their homework. 

Last year I bought an underpriced Lyon & Healy Style B, had it refretted and then resold it, clearing a profit roughly equal to twice what I paid for it. Now it belongs to an enthusiastic player who's using it in our mandolin orchestra. She gives it at least two hours of attention every day, which is more than I could have done, and more than it's seen in years. I've spent countless hours reading about, discussing, and looking at vintage mandolins, and occasionally that investment of time pays off. People shouldn't be made to feel guilty for acquiring expertise, or for having the initiative to seek out information about their mandolin purchases. Patrick's story is an inspiration to anyone with a sincere interest in vintage mandolins -- a category that, alas, does not include the people who sold him the Style A.

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## Jim Bevan

Yessir, congrats to Patrick, and good luck with the sale.

My wife knows what all the dolls and the books in the house are worth, and I know what all the instruments are worth. Too bad neither one of us can assess what the space, if vacated, would be worth.

(Yes, I'm digressing, but) My wife and daughters volunteer at the local church's money-raising flea market. One day she sent the kids home with a $15 clarinet, asking them to ask me to re-appraise it. 
"Are you kidding?" they said, before going home, "If we show Dad a $15 clarinet, it won't come back!"

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## Willie Poole

Diamondback...I bought one just like it about six years ago and it had the date it was made on a sticker inside, I forget the serial number but it was a two digit number and it was a 1919, I thought it was just a beautiful mandolin and well made but I am a bluegrasser and I didn`t care for the sound of it myself, I did put light gauge strings on it and played it quite a bit...It sounded more like a banjo than a mandolin...I kept if a few year just to hang on the wall of my music room because at that time I was collecting mandos but now I am trying get rid of some....Good luck with you sales, I sold mine for 2200 about three years ago....Willie

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## mrmando

It was nice of someone to put a manufacture date in Willie's L&H! I wish they all had stickers like that.

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## Ron McMillan

> Your comments and sour grapes rancor are noted.


There was no element of sour grapes in my comments, just a sense of decency that is apparently absent from the garage sale bargain hunt mentality.

Imagine if one of the grandkids of the former owner came home from college to find the L&H gone. _'The nice man from up the street gave us WHAT for it??? Don't you know what it was worth?'_  

Opportunism takes many forms. As I said, if you were a seller taking a buyer for that sort of a sting, you'd be widely seen as a thief. I draw my own conclusions from that, and will say no more on this topic.




rm

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## sgarrity

Buy low.  Sell high.  That's the name of the game.  Ever heard of the stock market??

My "good deal" on a L&H wound up costing me $$.  Good luck with your sale.  Those two pointers are just cool looking!

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## JeffD

"Theif" implies dishonesty. As described to us there was no dishonesty. Nobody lost, everyone got the value they put on it. No indecency. 

And the mandolin will soon enough be in the hands of someone who highly values it and appreciates it.

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## bratsche

I agree wholeheartedly.  It looks like the objector's sense of "decency" would have everyone somehow on a level playing field and "entitled" to the same degree of outcome, regardless of their study, concern or even care for that outcome.  That's just not happening in the real world, nor should it, IMO.  On the contrary, that someone should be able to transform the gem in their attic or garage into the cash it is truly worth *without* doing the slightest modicum of homework toward that end would be the height of indecency, as I see it.

And FWIW, I am definitely jealous.  If this good fortune had happened to me, I would keep the lovely instrument and play it myself.  (If I could afford to not have to resell it, that is!)

bratsche

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## Dimonback

And I am most certainly not in a position to keep it, even though I would teach myself to play again.  Hopefully he'll keep to his word and say no more about it. Enough said.

Once again I thank all the good people on the site who've helped me understand this instrument. I suspect having this come out of the cave and into the hands of a player is the best thing of all.

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## Eddie Sheehy

If you're going to put strings on it use light gauge - 10, 14, 24, 34 - Martin 80/20 is a nice set.  Probably better to wait for a structural examination first.  BTW, I don't think I ever heard it suggested that Bill Monroe should have gone back to the Barber Shop and given a donation...

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## JeffD

It is a beautiful example of a beautiful instrument, and it looks to be in great condition.

I forget the style designation, but Lyon & Healy also made one very similar, with asymetrical points. They are also absolute stunners.

I understand the pickguard is made of vulcanized rubber or something, as is the truss rod through the neck, if I got that right. Others on the forum here will know better.

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## delsbrother

I played what I can only assume was a short scale Style C the other day at Buffalo Brothers, and that thing was TINY. I have big fat fingers and that scale was harder to finger than some soprano ukes I've played.. It was obviously very nicely made - this was the first time I had seen that tailpiece in person and it didn't disappoint. Lovely birdseye back and sides. The tone was very bowl-back-like, and louder than I'd expected. But having actually played one now I know I'd probably need something longer.. Whew, that's $4K+ saved right there!!  :Wink:

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## Dimonback

Just had my thoughts confirmed by a luthier, Jim Poisson, at Advanced Guitars here in Vegas. He said "...put a new set of strings on it and it's good for another hundred years..." 
He also advised that $4000 would be a good price for it, so I'll consider that.

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## mrmando

A Lyon & Healy really sings with Thomastik strings on it ... if one can drop the lettuce for a $40 set of strings. 

The L&H with asymmetrical points is a later iteration of the Style A. Most of those have the shorter violin scale, although someone in another thread claimed to have an asymmetrical long-scale one.

The vulcanized material is a matter of some controversy. Some folks say it's rubber, but L&H ads and catalogs always described it as "vulcanized fibre." Reportedly it's made from the same materials as kraft paper. 

So Darrell, are you saying Buffalo Bros. had a Style C listed for $4K? The only one I see on their Web site is $1800.

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## delsbrother

No Martin, I played the $1800 one. I'm saying that although I'll enjoy looking at them immensely, I know now I won't need to save the dough for a short scale one as they probably aren't for me. I need to go to more garage sales...

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## EdSherry

On "the garage sale mentality" issue:  A buyer who knowingly tells a seller a falsehood in order to get a better price is acting dishonorably, in my opinion.  But that doesn't appear to be the case here.  

A buyer who knows that the item is worth significantly more than the selling is asking for it, but seeks to negotiate a lower price, is not being dishonest in the above sense, but IMHO such conduct tests the edge of "honorable" conduct.  

But a buyer who pays what the seller is asking, even if the buyer knows that the item is worth more, is acting honorably, in my opinion.  

Personally, on a few occasions where I know that the item is clearly worth more than the seller is asking, I have suggested that the seller might want to investigate the item's value [if the seller elects not to, that strikes me as his/her choice], and on occasion I've paid more than the asking price because I know that, even at the higher price, it's still a good deal.  But that's my choice, and I don't expect everyone to share my beliefs.  YMMV.  

If the seller asks the buyer "what's it worth?," that strikes me as a somewhat different issue, especially if the buyer is in the business of buying and selling.  Many buyers will respond to such a question with the counter-question "what are you asking for it?"  If the seller wants an appraisal, the buyer can offer to provide one for a fee.  In my experience, I find that few sellers are willing to pay for an appraisal.

If the buyer says "I'm only going to be able to sell it for $X, so I can't offer you more than $Y for it," all the while knowing that he'll be able to sell it for significantly more than $X, that strikes me personally as dishonest.  But again, YMMV.  And the OP clearly did not act that way.

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## Dimonback

Ed, I tend to agree with you. If I had known what I know now, my own sense of honor would have forced me to ask the seller to re-think and research. If it had been an old Gibson Les Paul, I most certainly would have suggested they put it away and get it appraised, because I know enough about such things to be taken aback. However, I walked in fat dumb and happy with the tools I bought, and on a whim decided to get the mando as well. Clueless until I got to the puter for some background. There's the whole story. Make of it what you will.

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## JeffD

Just to let you know - I am using one of the pics of that mandolin as my computer wallpaper. That way I can drool all over the keyboard.

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## EdSherry

Dimonback -- Looks like we are on the same wavelength.  Best wishes finding a buyer.  (If I wasn't already satsified with my L&Hs, I'd be seriously inquiring about buying yours.)  I'm glad it'll be put in the hands of an interested player, rather than gathering dust under a bed or in a closet.  You might even consider listing it on the Cafe classifieds!

There was an ad on the local Craigslist about a year ago where the seller thought she had a Style C.  What she actually had was a flat-top flat-back L&H; a nice instrument, but not worth nearly what she was asking.  I sent her some links to the "Washburn" book that demonstrated the differences.  She was disappointed, of course, but appreciative of the references.

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## mrmando

> You might even consider listing it on the Cafe classifieds!


Eh? 'Tis already there.

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## Dimonback

> Eh? 'Tis already there.


Yup... altho I feel better about it after having a Luthier pronounce it alive and well.

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## EdSherry

Martin -- silly me for not checking!  The Cafe rules!

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## Dimonback

> Tom Flood is a Vegas-based mandolin builder and Cafe member. I don't think he does repairs but he might be able to check it out.


Thanks for the lead. I did check with Tom, who referred me to Jim Poisson of Advanced Guitars. Jim's a good guy and agreed to verify the condition.

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## Dimonback

The mando has been pulled from the Cafe Classifieds and put up on Ebay. I can't sit on it any longer, and if I played it I might decide to keep it.

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## Dimonback

Some may have noticed that the mando did not sell on Ebay. I'm restringing it at this time, and will get better pictures. I doubt a sound bite from it will make anyone a believer, since they're too dependent on mike/recording quality, but I will offer it again on the Cafe for $3750/best offer.

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## Glassweb

Diamondback... just speaking for myself here... I think you'd be better off if you just list the sales price and let it be sold. This whole "here's a price OR best offer" thing just doesn't fly for me and I know it discourages alot of buyers. Nobody likes to be played against another buyer. Be a straight shooter and you'll get it sold. Keep playing games and the price will just keep dropping...

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## Dimonback

Okay, I wasn't aware that people saw it that way. My intention is that if it doesn't come up to the asking price, that I would consider lower offers. I'm not trying to "play" anyone, just trying to open up conversations.

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## Eddie Sheehy

Well I was watching it and when a late "reserve price" went on I thought "Well no ones going to try a last minute snipe now because they have no idea ho high to go - not that anyone might have bid anyway - but they would have got it for $3,200...  I was surprised that you didn't even get that opening bid covered so I don't see how you'll get a BIN of $3,750.  If you want a high price for it you're in the wrong market time-wise.  Either hang on to it for later or lower your expectations.  It's ok for guys to give you an "appraisal" of what it "should" fetch... but if they're not offering that amount then talk is cheap.  Good Luck.

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## Dimonback

I tend to agree, Eddie. An item is only worth what someone's willing to pay for it. Now that I'm getting into playing condition, though, it may become a smaller version of my '72 Epiphone FT350.. I've had it since it was new, and no one is getting their hands on it until I'm worm food.

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## pdb

Eddie is exactly right.. This is a tough economy and tough time to be selling vintage instruments for anywhere near what they would have brought a few short years ago.  I remember too well loars going for 250k and now at 195k they are not moving well even at the reduced price adjusted for our economy.  Your original asking price of 4,500 in the cafe classified was a stretch in todays market.  I thought it might sell at 3,750 on ebay (after listing, selling, and paypal fees you'd be less $150-$200). If you really need to move it quickly, you might try Stan Werbin at Elderly Music.  Stan is a great guy to deal with and he will normally offer a fair price and still be assured that he can make a profit.  He can afford to sit on the item for a few months until the right buyer comes along.  Just a thought if it needs to be sold quickly.  If you don't have to sell it quickly, you would do better to list it at a reasonable price (economy adjusted) on the classifieds here and/or ebay and you would certainly do better than a sell outright to Elderly.  Just a thought....good luck with it.

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## Roland Sturm

Not long ago, another symmetric A (good condition and complete, although not quite as clean as this) didn't sell for $2999, so I'm not surprised. Item number was
200451111454

The comparison is a symmetric, not the asymmetric one (which is more desirable for classical players with the shorter scale). Yet even a clean asymmetric one at a boutique shop doesn't get $4000. Mandolin Brothers, not exactly known for its rock bottom prices, had a clean asymmetric one advertised for less than $4000 and it sat for some time (and who knows what it sold for eventually).

They are not exactly bluegrass mandolins and the shorter scale is more like other popular classical mandolins (e.g. Embergher). After all, if there is an American classical mandolin, that would be it.

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## bratsche

I just wonder out loud why asymmetric ones would be "more desirable", especially if they have the short scale.  (But then I've never been able to play a short scale mandolin as comfortably as a long scaled one.  And I've always been a fan of symmetry....)

bratsche

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## Glassweb

i think most players find the symmetrical version more desireable.

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## Roland Sturm

> I just wonder out loud why asymmetric ones would be "more desirable", especially if they have the short scale.  (But then I've never been able to play a short scale mandolin as comfortably as a long scaled one.  And I've always been a fan of symmetry....)
> 
> bratsche


Yep, as a viola player you probably don't like a violin (or classical mandolin) scale. But most people seem to prefer the smaller instrument over the viola (although I like the viola myself). 
 I believe that Neapolitan mandolins (but experts need to weigh in here) changed in almost all dimensions from the 18th to 20th century EXCEPT the scale length, which stayed pretty constant at 13 inches (32/33 cm). In any event, Lyon and Healy soon changed from a Gibson scale to the standard classical length  (and changed the shape), presumably for a reason in the market they were targeting.

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## Dimonback

I did get it re-strung, got to play with it a bit, and decided it was too dangerous for me to hang onto for any time... so it's re-listed for a 5 day auctionwith most of the points of advice graciously given considered and accomodated. This whole experience has been one hell of an education for me from the initial shock to the first chords out of it. I did contact Mr. Gruhn and appreciate his thoughts as well.
I hope someone on the Cafe gets it. Thanks to all for your input and help.

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## Ted Eschliman

Then this thread is done. We've let this go far longer than we should have. From the Posting Guidelines:
"Ebay, online auctions, Cafe Classifieds, direct dealer solicitations: while discussing online auctions or the classifieds is permitted, posting personal transactions for business or self-promotion is prohibited."
Discussion of an interesting instrument is permitted, using the message board to shill it is not.

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