# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  TKL Mandolins

## Johnny-Alien

Does anyone have experience with these mandolins?  They seem to be pretty new and while the first batch has been pretty well sold through (by what I have been told) I can't seem to find a review on here.  Has anyone dealt with the shop for other mandolins?  It seems to me that much of the value is based on his knowledge of mandolins and the pro setup.  I am interested in them and would like to see if anyone has played or owns one OR has dealt positively with the store.  It looks like he used to sell J.Bovier but opted to source out his own line instead which he (of course) says is superior to the Eastmans and Boviers. Thanks!

http://themandoshop.com/tkd-mandolin...mandolins.html

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lflngpicker

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## Franc Homier Lieu

Johnny-Alien,
I just sent you a PM.

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## Johnny-Alien

I realize this looks like it was my first post...I actually was a member previously but the old account was tied to an old email address and I forgot the password.  The password reset would go to my old email so I was stuck creating a new account.  :Smile:   This is a great community that I hope to be a part of once again!!

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## mandobassman

Another post about the Mando Shop by a members' first post.  Hmmmm??

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## Johnny-Alien

I was just warned about this.  :Smile:   I tried to explain that I am not actually "new".  I was facing a few choices of what to get and there were just no searchable reviews so I thought I would ask. If it makes things better I am 100% OK with people posting negative opinions.  :Smile: 

The fact that there were potential shills from the company makes me have way less faith in the shop though.

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lflngpicker

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## Franc Homier Lieu

> I realize this looks like it was my first post...I actually was a member previously but the old account was tied to an old email address and I forgot the password.  The password reset would go to my old email so I was stuck creating a new account.   This is a great community that I hope to be a part of once again!!


Is this your old member name? 
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ibson-mandolin

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## Johnny-Alien

Yes. That was me.

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

I didn't know The Mando Shop has their own house brand mandolins; I guess everyone is doing it now. I have not heard anything about it before. At first glance they remind me more of those Morgan Monroe Rocky Top models than Eastman or JBovier.  Just my own impression and what struck me first.

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## Franc Homier Lieu

A well kept secret indeed! A quick something search yields a couple of interesting results, including this

http://www.mandohangout.com/topic/42596

 :Disbelief: 

And this

http://www.theplathfamilyband.com/micah-plath.html

 :Popcorn:

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## MikeEdgerton

I merged your old account with your new account. By the way, this is a legitimate request for information if anyone has any. Hopefully you'll get a legitimate answer and not a first time poster.

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colorado_al, 

Johnny-Alien

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## fatt-dad

some correction to the title of the thread may help future searches.  TKD is the brand of mandolin. TKL is a brand of cases.

f-d

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G7MOF, 

lflngpicker, 

MikeEdgerton

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## Mark Wilson

> I am tap tuning each mandolin after the build is complete by using hand tools through the sound holes.  Adjusting wood thickness to tune the top to the A440 Hz pitch standard improves volume and sustain, increases overtones and makes the mandolin more responsive.  This is one of the reasons why the TKD mandolins sound can compete with some mandolins costing thousands more.


is this effective?

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## Ron McMillan

I have a friend in Thailand who bought one last year. He is very happy with it.

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## Franc Homier Lieu

> is this effective?


I was going to post a question about this in the builders section. The tiny bit I know of tap tuning (including how controversial it is in the first place) is that it is done during construction. I mean, common sense would dictate that with a completed instrument there would be advantages to, you know, plucking those wire things to see what kind of sound the instrument makes.

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## yankees1

> Does anyone have experience with these mandolins?  They seem to be pretty new and while the first batch has been pretty well sold through (by what I have been told) I can't seem to find a review on here.  Has anyone dealt with the shop for other mandolins?  It seems to me that much of the value is based on his knowledge of mandolins and the pro setup.  I am interested in them and would like to see if anyone has played or owns one OR has dealt positively with the store.  It looks like he used to sell J.Bovier but opted to source out his own line instead which he (of course) says is superior to the Eastmans and Boviers. Thanks!
> 
> http://themandoshop.com/tkd-mandolin...mandolins.html


  Better check old threads regarding the Mandoshop. I have dealt with the owner with horrible results ! There are others with positive results but I would never buy there again or have Kyle set up a mandolin. Enough said !

- - - Updated - - -




> Does anyone have experience with these mandolins?  They seem to be pretty new and while the first batch has been pretty well sold through (by what I have been told) I can't seem to find a review on here.  Has anyone dealt with the shop for other mandolins?  It seems to me that much of the value is based on his knowledge of mandolins and the pro setup.  I am interested in them and would like to see if anyone has played or owns one OR has dealt positively with the store.  It looks like he used to sell J.Bovier but opted to source out his own line instead which he (of course) says is superior to the Eastmans and Boviers. Thanks!
> 
> http://themandoshop.com/tkd-mandolin...mandolins.html


  Better check old threads regarding the Mandoshop. I have dealt with the owner with horrible results ! There are others with positive results but I would never buy there again or have Kyle set up a mandolin. Enough said !

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## lflngpicker

I purchased a J Bovier mandolin from Kyle and he was great!  He was professional, kind and supportive in allowing me to make choices as the buyer.  His set-ups are really nice, he makes the instrument comfortable and the voicing is enhanced by his methods, I believe.  I recommend Kyle highly and I hope to someday have the opportunity to play one of his house brand mandolins.

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## DataNick

A Cafe member has purchased one of these and he is very happy with it. I have played it and heard it up close and in jams....nice tonal qualities; reminds me of my old JBovier...right in the same class as a Kentucky, Eastman, The Loar, etc.

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## Marty Jacobson

> I was going to post a question about this in the builders section. The tiny bit I know of tap tuning (including how controversial it is in the first place) is that it is done during construction. I mean, common sense would dictate that with a completed instrument there would be advantages to, you know, plucking those wire things to see what kind of sound the instrument makes.


I don't know if it would be effective. The changes, physically speaking, are going to be very subtle (if not negligible). The wood selection, air volume, break angle, port aperture size, and plate graduations are more significant by an order or two of magnitude than the amount of wood on the tone bars.

But our brains are weird. A $200 bottle of wine is essentially impossible to distinguish from a $20 bottle, even by experienced tasters. Presentation, price (higher price = better), good service, and a hands-on approach lend an expectation of quality. When we have an expectation of quality, our experience is better. So whether it has any physical benefit or not is difficult to prove and largely irrelevant. The fact that he cares enough to do it means that people will enjoy the instruments more. Carry on.

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Mark Wilson, 

Timbofood

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## mandobassman

I may be entirely wrong about this, but I thought tap tuning was something done to the top plate during carving and before assembly.  Why would you tap tune a mandolin that is already built?

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## DataNick

> I may be entirely wrong about this, but I thought tap tuning was something done to the top plate during carving and before assembly.  Why would you tap tune a mandolin that is already built?


A short-cut way of doing it because the factory workers are not trained to do it.

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## texaspaul

How is this different from what Stelhen Perry does.  Does't Kyle clean up the edges of sound hole make sure there are no rough finishes on the inside of the plates and smooth any rough spots and glue off the tone bars?

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## Mandobar

> A short-cut way of doing it because the factory workers are not trained to do it.


I bought a Givens Legacy (actually one F and one A) that needed to have the frets seated before it was playable, so there's some work that needs to be done on even domestic made mandolins to make them closer to 100%

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DataNick

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## DataNick

> I bought a Givens Legacy (actually one F and one A) that needed to have the frets seated before it was playable, so there's some work that needs to be done on even domestic made mandolins to make them closer to 100%


Mary,

I think final set-up work is not the same skill set as tone-bar graduations; if I'm wrong and the skill-level/difficulty is the same, I stand corrected, but I don't think so...

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## JEStanek

I think tap tuning (or a variety of it) was done during Steven Perry of Gianna Violin's Mandovoodoo process / set up. He taps the top and uses a small scraper inside the chamber of a finished instrument to remove a little wood to change the plate's responsiveness.  Maybe that's what they mean... maybe not.  The language of building isn't always uniform.

Jamie

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## allenhopkins

Quite a few instruments get "voiced" (which is what we call it around here), by having tops thinned, brace or tone bar sizes reduced, braces "scalloped" so that 1950-75 Martins are braced more like older guitars, etc.  I have a 1957 Martin D-18 that's been "voiced," and it sounds really great.  Idea is to reduce top mass, so that the top's more responsive to string vibrations.

But that's not exactly "tap tuning."  I don't see how it would be possible to tap-tune a mandolin top when attached to the back and sides.  Doesn't the top have to be a separate piece of wood, which is then made to vibrate, and its vibrating frequency modified by carving or sanding wood from its thickness -- either from the overall top, or from the tone bars?

I assume the vibrating frequency of the top of an _assembled_ mandolin would be influenced not only by the top's thickness, but by the mass of attached sides, neck and back.  Hope that some of the real builders on the Cafe will correct me if I'm off base.

Thinning the top of an instrument -- _in general_ -- may well produce more volume.  But is that "tap tuning?"

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## nordian

Well Johnny-Alien you finally did wind up getting a couple of responses to your question about the mandolins in question and they were favorable. I know there has been much controversy around here regarding Kyle Dunn and TheMandoShop, some positive, some negative. I know nothing about the mandolin in question but my experience with Kyle when I bought my JBovier A5 Special was nothing but positive. He was courteous and professional with me on the phone and when my mandolin arrived the setup was very good including the Allen tailpiece that I had him install before shipping it to me here in NC. One other thing to note, unlike some others, he never solicited a feedback or review from me in any way. Just my experience.

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DataNick

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## Willie Poole

Kyle says he tap tunes the tops after they are installed to a 440 HZ which I believe is an A note and I believe Sinimoff suggests to carve them at a D note before they are installed so having the sides and back on a mandolin surely does change the tap tuning note, I guess Kyle feels that 440 HZ is ideal, if it makes his mandolin sound like he wants then more power to him...I just wonder why he can`t say who actually makes them for him...

   Just for the heck of it I checked a mandolin that was built using Roger`s book "How to Build a Bluegrass Mandolin" and it rings out at a true A note when tapped, I check one other one that is made by another well known builder and it rings at a note just a tad sharp of an A note...I don`t know what that proves but both builders use the tap tuning method and tune the tops to a D note when they are carved....From that I gather that a mandolin does really change that much when put together...

      Willie

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## DataNick

> Kyle says he tap tunes the tops after they are installed to a 440 HZ which I believe is an A note and I believe Sinimoff suggests to carve them at a D note before they are installed so having the sides and back on a mandolin surely does change the tap tuning note, I guess Kyle feels that 440 HZ is ideal, if it makes his mandolin sound like he wants then more power to him...*I just wonder why he can`t say who actually makes them for him*...



Willie,

There has been a trend in the stringed instrument business this century, to contract with factories in China (there's quite a few of them) to build instruments according to the specs you provide, then do some level of QA first, then finish work on your part, with the completed instrument bearing your brand/trademark name. It's the same business model that Jeff Cowherd does with his JBovier line and others as well. Kyle mentioned to me 2 years ago that this was in the works for him to put out his own line. The final "tuning" is just his wrinkle that from what I can tell, works!

People who use that business model however will probably be tight-lipped to reveal their production source(s) though...YMMV

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## Johnny-Alien

That's one of the few things that concerned me a bit. I asked him where they were made and he was open about it being China but the website clearly says hand crafted in the USA which is pretty dishonest.

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## mandobassman

Since it was established that this was not Johnny's first thread, I sent him a PM and apologized for grouping him with the questionable posts about the Mando Shop from the past. However, no matter what a good dealer Kyle Dunn may be to some, there are definately some question marks surrounding his honesty. Stating on his web site that his signature line of mandolins are "Hand crafted in the USA" when they clearly are not is just another example of that.

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Johnny-Alien

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## Jeff Mando

Allen, that sounds similar to "random hippie sanding" to me................. :Whistling:

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allenhopkins, 

Charles E.

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## Dotneck

> There has been a trend in the stringed instrument business this century, to contract with factories in China (there's quite a few of them) to build instruments according to the specs you provide, then do some level of QA first, then finish work on your part, with the completed instrument bearing your brand/trademark name. It's the same business model that Jeff Cowherd does with his JBovier line and others as well.


Northfield is another brand using that business model.

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## Ron McMillan

There is, I'm afraid, a bit of mob mentality involved in the rush to knock this dealer. He may well have done things in the past that merit some skepticism, but some (not all) of the criticism being heaped upon him here comes from people whose 'experiences' with the man go no further than reading bad things about him on the Cafe. 

I mentioned my Thai friend who is very happy with his TKD. There are hardly any mandolins available in Bangkok, and my friend needed something better than the low-end (and over-priced) Fenders that pop up in stores from time to time. He contacted Kyle, identified a TKD from photographs supplied, listened to audio clips sent to him by Kyle, negotiated a fair price for the instrument, and trusted Kyle to get it shipped half-way around the world to Bangkok. The instrument arrived as promised, in excellent condition, beautifully set up and ready to play. My friend (and his son, who is something of a mandolin prodigy) are delighted with the instrument and with the honesty and reliability of the seller. I believe this is much more relevant to the OP than vague, fourth-hand rumours eagerly passed on by people with no experience of the dealer.

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atbuckner21, 

choctaw61, 

DataNick, 

jesserules, 

Nick Gellie

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## almeriastrings

> Northfield is another brand using that business model.


No. Absolutely not.

Totally different setup entirely.

http://www.northfieldinstruments.com/about-us/our-story

There is a world of difference between what Northfield do and the 'contract builders' discussed above.

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DataNick, 

Johnny60

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## darylcrisp

> No. Absolutely not.
> 
> Totally different setup entirely.
> 
> http://www.northfieldinstruments.com/about-us/our-story
> 
> There is a world of difference between what Northfield do and the 'contract builders' discussed above.


+1
click "our team" in the left hand column within the link-5 people make up Northfield(3 builders and 2 who setup). that's small shop, less than say SantaCruz guitars.

d

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## Mandobar

> Mary,
> 
> I think final set-up work is not the same skill set as tone-bar graduations; if I'm wrong and the skill-level/difficulty is the same, I stand corrected, but I don't think so...


Basic seating of frets (the frets in both instruments had to be reseated on each of these) is not set up work in my book.  This is mandolin building 101.  It should not go out the door unplayable.  Cosmetics and refinement are a different issue.

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choctaw61, 

DataNick, 

MikeEdgerton

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## MikeEdgerton

> +1
> click "our team" in the left hand column within the link-5 people make up Northfield(3 builders and 2 who setup). that's small shop, less than say SantaCruz guitars.
> 
> d


Northfield mandolins are all built in the USA? Are we back to what a factory is vs a shop? The business model is pretty basic and has matured over the years. Because there's a picture of an individual on the website means little. They are still contracting to have a mandolin built to their specifications. If they suddenly are selling thousands of units and the operation in China can't keep up does it grow? This is a known model that has worked for a whole lot of companies and to pretend that it's different is to ignore reality.

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jesserules

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## EdHanrahan

Slightly off topic but...

While not usually a fan of black-top instruments, that mottled grey "barn-board" look strikes me as really interesting, especially backed up with nicely flamed maple (I'm guessing) back & sides of matching color.

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## almeriastrings

> Northfield mandolins are all built in the USA? Are we back to what a factory is vs a shop? The business model is pretty basic and has matured over the years. Because there's a picture of an individual on the website means little. They are still contracting to have a mandolin built to their specifications. If they suddenly are selling thousands of units and the operation in China can't keep up does it grow? This is a known model that has worked for a whole lot of companies and to pretend that it's different is to ignore reality.



I would suggest that you don't "contract" _with yourself_ to have something made.

You go to a third party. That's the key difference in my opinion. 

Anyone can have instruments built-to order by a whole range of what are typically fairly anonymous (outside of the industry) builders. These can range from quite small operations, to very large ones. They are used by a host of well-known names, especially for budget and medium range instruments. A lot of these 'contract builders' used to be based in Japan, but in more recent years have moved base to Korea and China. They usually offer a baseline range of designs that you can simply have your name put on, to more involved 'true custom' building, so many of the designs we see again and again are essentially all the same, except for the name they are sold under.

Northfield are quite different in two important respects:

1. They do not 'contract build' for anyone else;
2. The instruments they offer are all built entirely 'in house' in one or other of their own facilities, one in China and one in the US and those instruments bear their own name, not that of a store or third party importer. In short, if you buy one of these you know who made it. _Northfield did._ Not some unidentified third-party factory who is simultaneously building for other 'brands'.

Personally, I do feel that is quite a significant difference from say, a store or importer simply putting out a contract to have something made that will carry their own name, not that of the actual builder. Of course, good quality instruments can be produced using both methods, it all depends on the costings, the QA and specifications. As we all know, Kentucky have made some very nice instruments over the years, and have changed actual builders, factories (and countries) a number of times.

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darylcrisp, 

DataNick, 

Flame Maple, 

John Lloyd, 

Nick Gellie

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## MikeEdgerton

OK, so Saga does the same thing. The people they contract don't build for anyone else. There are literally dozens of companies that do the same thing. There's nothing magical here. The big talent comes in managing the process. The people that can manage that process import quality products. The ones that don't manage it well generally fall down. Either way, it's the same process no matter how you dress it up.

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## Johnny-Alien

I agree. I don't think J.Bovier is using a large shared factory to make their stuff...Jade didn't and it sounds like TKD is not either.  It sounds like there is one factory cranking out identical Mandolins with different logos and perhaps I am naive but I didn't think that was happening (at least not with all of them) although it's very common in the import guitar business.

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## darylcrisp

> Northfield mandolins are all built in the USA? Are we back to what a factory is vs a shop? The business model is pretty basic and has matured over the years. Because there's a picture of an individual on the website means little. They are still contracting to have a mandolin built to their specifications. If they suddenly are selling thousands of units and the operation in China can't keep up does it grow? This is a known model that has worked for a whole lot of companies and to pretend that it's different is to ignore reality.


Mike I honestly don't know what goes on within the walls of the Northfield boyz. What I do know is what these instruments do when held in hand and played. Definitely an instrument built with intent by a couple of people who know what they are doing extremely well.

Not having visited either shop(within the USA or Asia), I am going by what info is available on the NF website. The info below taken from the NF website leads me to think it is a group effort, group owned,  and there is no party contracting out. They are simply working together to build quality high end mandolins after having met and worked together in the past.

Not being involved with the company first hand, I have no idea how the business model for Northfield is set up. I do have a strong gut feeling it is exactly how they present it on the website. 

d

This from the NF website:

Our company is owned together as a group, with each member investing and each member sharing in the rewards. This makes us the same as many traditional shops and very, very different from most of the current international business ventures in the music industry. It’s simple, we all take responsibility for our small company’s work—so we all share in the results, good or bad. Aligning our interests, even those related to paying the bills, has meant a great deal to our development as a team and as friends.

(and I stand to be corrected, in my earlier reply I mentioned 5 people making up the Northfield shop(factory,company,team). in reading over some interesting tidbits on Northfield I saw this list as making up the Northfield team:

Adrian Bagale
Derek Smith
Peter Bagale
Dianhong Yin
Kosuke Kyomori 
Jidou Qin 
Xi Sheng Zhang 

*what each individual does or where they live I don't know-an email to NF would get the exact job title of each, and if time permits later this weekend I may send an email to find out. if I get around to it i'll list the info next week.  now back to cutting some hickory trim for the kitchen my wife and I just overhauled on a weeks vacation-pics to follow on the kitchen when I have time to do that as well.

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## Jeff Mando

This business model is nothing new, but the days of being "vague" about the country of origin or concealing that information are over, thanks to the internet and websites like MC. 20+ years ago, before pac-rim knockoffs were available inexpensively, Marc Silber comes to mind.  Marc had commissioned Weissenborn copy guitars to be made in Paracho, Mexico.  They were quite good and filled a small demand at the time for those who couldn't locate an original.  There was no mention of where the guitar was made on the guitar, as I recall, only Marc's name.  I know another seller of "handmade" mid-level classical guitars in Nashville, who imports his brand from Paracho and prints his own label on his computer.  And yes, it is indeed a handmade guitar and very nice for the money.  Most people associate Paracho instruments with the cheap, warped, and crudely finished Guitarron's seen at Mexican-owned convenience stores in the USA, but actually all grades of instruments are available in Paracho.  I see this business model being more of an "old school" thing rather than intending to deceive.  Similar to when a person says, I built a house in Florida, meaning they had a house built, rather than they actually did the building themselves.  Reviews of Marc Silber guitars usually say made by Marc Silber of San Francisco, mostly due to lack of information available, but most people who were into these at the time knew the story and were fine with it.  A deluxe "house brand" if you will.......

I know an old Italian tailor who will still measure you and make you a suit completely by hand.  However on his shelves are handmade shirts he sells, which he imports from Mexico.  The work meets his approval and the impression is that he made them.  Deceptive?  Not really, IMHO, just playing upon the mysteries that go on with a "old world" business like being a tailor.  I think luthiery has some of that same mystery to many people.

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## darylcrisp

I remembered an article I read long before I had hands on with a Northfield, I then called and spoke with Adrian in Michigan, and since have spoken with Peter on a few items I needed exact answers with.

This article was published in 2012 I think, I may still have the paper copy, but read it thru, and take note of how NF was started and why-on the last page it pretty much sums it up. A few people came together to form a company to produce a few high quality mandolins each month. 

I remember somewhere lately I saw mention of how many mandolins total that Northfield has made since its inception-i'll try to find that and post a link if I do. The amount wasn't a large number.

http://www.northfieldinstruments.com...imited_web.pdf

I remember an article(I think I read it here on the Café), where Will Kimble and his dad make Kimble mandolins. They live a couple states away, so the mandos get shipped back and forth a couple times to have each do a certain step in the build. I found that interesting and unusual, and it evidently works very well for them and the mandolins(and players who acquire one of these).
found it:
http://archive.mandolinsessions.com/dec05/interview.pdf

d

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## almeriastrings

Total number produced is still only around 300....as of this April.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...dn-t-last-long

Mine's a 'Big Mon' number 127 and just keeps getting better. Really fine mandolin indeed.

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Flame Maple

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## darylcrisp

> Total number produced is still only around 300....as of this April.
> 
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...dn-t-last-long
> 
> Mine's a 'Big Mon' number 127 and just keeps getting better. Really fine mandolin indeed.


I remembered that #300, but I wasn't sure if that was just for that specific model, the standard F5S, or if it included the F2SB, the MasterModels, and the M Models. I haven't a clue. I may ask and see what total number there is.

Apologies to the OP due to the way your thread turned, we need to let the NF discussion die off here and get back to your original questions.

d

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## Charles E.

> Allen, that sounds similar to "random hippie sanding" to me.................


From the website " using hand tools through the sound holes ", I'm sorry, there is only so much one can do accurately to the top through the sound holes. To be fair I would like to hear how he does it.

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## yankees1

> From the website " using hand tools through the sound holes ", I'm sorry, there is only so much one can do accurately to the top through the sound holes. To be fair I would like to hear how he does it.


 I wasted a hundred bucks having Kyle do this procedure ! No difference in sound ( bad before and bad afterwards ). But I think the main problem was the poor job he did on replacing the frets. Several frets you could run a fishing line under.

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## allenhopkins

> ...Marc Silber comes to mind.  Marc had commissioned Weissenborn copy guitars to be made in Paracho, Mexico.  They were quite good and filled a small demand at the time for those who couldn't locate an original.  There was no mention of where the guitar was made on the guitar, as I recall, only Marc's name....


I bought one of those K & S Mexican-made Weissenborn copies on eBay.  It was OK, but I didn't keep it long; the bridge pulled up, I had it re-glued, but once that kind of thing happens, I get a bit nervous about the quality of construction.  I traded it in at Bernunzio's, I think on my Weber "sopranolin," along with a couple other instruments I wasn't playing at all.

There is a great difference, IMHO, between setting up an exclusive shop overseas to make instruments you design, and inspect/set up when they arrive in the US -- and contracting with an established large-scale foreign manufacturer to put your imprint, on instruments that they make for you and for a variety of other US sellers.

Don't know into which category Mandolin Shop and TKD mandolins fall, though I guess it's more the latter than the former.  I've been quite satisfied, for example, with Gold Tone instruments, which are Asian-made, but supposedly carefully inspected and adjusted when received by Gold Tone in this country.  I've been less satisfied with Johnson instruments, which seem to be more "generically" produced in China; I still have my Johnson resonator ukulele, but traded away the Johnson trip-cone guitar I purchased.

There are many examples of Asian-made instruments made for US dealers, that are ID-ed as being nearly exactly like other instruments sold here under different labels.  While I've never run across a TKD mandolin to try, and while they may be among the better-quality Asian imports for all I know, nothing I've read here or elsewhere suggests to me that they compare with Northfields, Eastmans, or the other specifically-made Asian mandolins.

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## Folkmusician.com

Many of the insights here are partially correct.

There are a whole lot of sources for instruments, but just a couple of factories dominate.  Most of the imports are obviously from the same sources. You can tell by looking at them.  These factories have their standard models that they can put any name on. They can do minor customization of the standard models (finish, binding, inlays, etc), Then, if you can commit to enough volume, custom instruments can be made.

While many brands truly are selling the identical mandolins, not everything that looks the same is. Grades of wood, graduation and QC can make a big difference in the final product. We also have more than one factory producing similar instruments. These can look basically the same in images. In person there will be minor differences.

There are only a handful of truly unique instruments coming from China. Much of what looks unique is still coming from these same large factories.  If you have been at this long enough, you start to catch small similarities.  Over the years I have seen what appear to be instruments from entirely different sources have small details such as incorrect nut spacing happen during the same timelines. This is on completely different instruments, with different materials used for the nuts, yet these otherwise unrelated instruments all have the string spacing change at the same time, then change back at the same time. Several brands having the quality of fret work fluctuate at the same time. Coincidence? Maybe once, but this sort of thing happens semi-regularly. 

Now how about the number of instruments where I have opened the box to find another brand of instrument inside.  The boxes that have other brand names printed on the inside, invoices and other such stuff, used as packing material, or stuffed inside the instrument for finish work, then left there.


There are also cases where instruments in the white or parts, may be made at the factory and then finished somewhere else. Everything is so intermixed. This happens with domestic instruments as well. And not just outsourcing within the USA. Sending American wood to China, to have parts made, and then parts come back to the USA for final assembly and instruments are sold as US Made, Some with "qualification", some not.

"A product that is "Made in America" has to be assembled, and most of the cost of making the product incurred, in the United States. But that’s where things start to get a little tricky. (And that’s why it takes 40 pages to explain the rules.)"


In the end, it is impossible for someone without inside information to know exactly how their instrument comes about.   :Smile:

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almeriastrings, 

Bob Clark, 

DataNick, 

Robert Mitchell

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## DataNick

Excellent post & info Mr. Fear!

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## Ron McMillan

In case anyone here is interested in the sound of a TKD F5. Considering the obviously difficult filming conditions, I think it sounds pretty good.

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DataNick, 

Mdc1, 

Nick Gellie, 

Robert Mitchell

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## bbaker2050

> In case anyone here is interested in the sound of a TKD F5. Considering the obviously difficult filming conditions, I think it sounds pretty good.


Interesting....no strap...... and there's nothing like a kid reminding you how much you suck at playing the mandolin!

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## Ron McMillan

> Interesting....no strap...... and there's nothing like a kid reminding you how much you suck at playing the mandolin!


He doesn't even have a pot belly to rest it on  :Smile:  Doing that whole piece from memory is pretty astonishing. His Dad was his first teacher, but he has left Dad far behind and there are no other mandolin teachers in the country, so he is now learning what he can from an accomplished classical violinist. Much of what he knows he has learned from .tef files.

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DataNick

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## Mdc1

Check out "Solving the Stradivarius secret" on YouTube. I found the video very interesting but you do need to block some time to watch it at about 1 1/2 hours. The tools he uses inside the f holes to change the sound of the violin may possibly be something like what Kyle Dunn is doing for his TKD mandolin. I may be overthinking things a bit

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## Mandobar

Shipping "parts" into the U.S. has its advantages from a $$$ standpoint.  The duties and taxes are quite different.  So, if you make parts overseas where the labor is cheaper (although labor expense in China is rising and many companies are moving either to outer, more rural areas within the country to control costs) and then assemble here in the U.S.  you balance the best of both worlds.  It's a balancing act.

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## slinds

Look at the video around the 50 minute mark to see where the gentleman discusses how luthiers used tools to fine tune a Strad violin by way of the f-holes. In rounding out the discussion on this thread about TDK mandolins and the process he uses (tap tuning - a legitimate process used by luthiers to further fine tune an instrument), my guess is that many luthiers probably fashion their own tools to "sand" or lightly remove the wood surface on the underside of the top of the instrument thru the f-holes (mandolin in this case) to change the sound slightly to what the luthier feels is the correct specifications for the sound they are trying to achieve. This becomes his signature for his brand of TDK. Some buyers will love it while others will be drawn to other instruments.

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## Jeff Mando

> Interesting....no strap......


No tone gard or snark, either!

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## Jerusalem Ridge

I just wanted to add, that a couple months I went ahead bought an Eagle F5 TKD mandolin and my impressions were that it sounded amazing, one the best mandolins l have played, BUT the catch is that the fit and finish were terrible. 
I mean, I found a chisel mark near the the neck heel, uneven points, some sanding marks, you get the picture. 
So if you want great sounding and playing(set was great too!)instrument this is for you, but if you want mandolin with the fit and finish of a Gil, don't look here.

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## dhergert

Regarding tap-tuning, this term is also widely used in the banjo community to express finding the right tension for a head by identifying the note that an unstrung banjo head makes when tapped.  On some banjos this may also include compensation for wolf-notes.  I'm sure the term is also used in the percussion community.

"Build it like a Loar. Adjustments were made on the Loars by adjusting the treble f-hole size."  -- Charlie Derrington

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## Al Trujillo

I've read several of the comments in other threads about Kyle and the Mando Shop.  I can't speak about anything other than the way he treated me when I bought my first instrument. Kyle was thorough in answering all my questions and he acted, and treated me as a professional.  That he knocked a couple hundred off the price of my Weber Gallatin also helped me make up my mind about him. I've since read some of the comments about Kyle that had I read them prior to buying my Weber, they most certainly have influenced me and I probably not bought from him - and at this point, after being treated well by the man I'm not sure how fair that is to him.  Personally, after buying from Kyle, receiving my mandolin, and speaking with him a few more times about a Weber Diamondback, I'm  as confused as ever about the issues that circle above him. Kyle never asked me to write a review of my purchase or his business - I would swear to that on a Bible.  I can't speak for his in-house brand of mandolins, but he carries enough other quality brands that there should be no question about those products.

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## yankees1

I wouldn't buy or have set up any instrument from Kyle at the Mando Shop. Once I get burned I stay away from fire !

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## Bill Kammerzell

I guess we all have had an experience or three where we were disappointed with a set-up, build, or a transaction. I know I had a bad experience with a builder here, plus a poor or non set-up by one of the instrument dealers. The dealer actually did give me some compensation on the other end and an apology. The worst experience I had was selling a mandolin here at the Classifieds and after shipping being told by the buyer that he decided against it and would send it back "Return to Sender" so he could save shipping fees.  :Smile: 
I didn't realize it at the time, but "Return to Sender" with a large package, get's the proverbial, "Slow boat to China." Took 16 days from Palm City Florida to Annapolis MD.
But for whatever bad experiences I may have had with a builder, shop, or dealer, I can count numerous times where the same builder, shop, etc got absolutely rave reviews from a dozen people.
That's what I look for, is the ratio of good versus bad reviews and then make a decision from there. I believe I have read enough good stuff about Timothy Kyle Dunn (TKD) to do business. The caveat would be I've been wrong before. :Laughing:

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5bassman

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## Russ Donahue

You know, part of the fun in this community is the meandering discussion that can result from a simple question or two. Contributions run in so many tributaries a thread can seem more like the Missouri...reminds me of a song I should go learn! Keep going....please...fascinating conversation!

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## Bill Kammerzell

Just purchased a TKD Rex Fox. F style. Burgundy finish. The sound was really there. It has true pop and punch. A real player. Loud with plenty of tone and sustain. Great balance. The set up was perfect. Fit and finish was decent also. Excellent intonation. A small blemish for which Kyle reduced the price to $595.00 without any problem. Nice HSC. He shipped quickly and packed well. I'd do business again.

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## Loubrava

> Just purchased a TKD Rex Fox. F style. Burgundy finish. The sound was really there. It has true pop and punch. A real player. Loud with plenty of tone and sustain. Great balance. The set up was perfect. Fit and finish was decent also. A small blemish for which Kyle reduced the price to $595.00 without any problem. Nice HSC. He shipped quickly and packed well. I'd do business again.


Nice !, How does it compare to the volume of your Weber and tone wise how would you compare it to the Weber ? If your real happy with it 600 bucks is a killer deal. I have a older Weber Bitteroot and have tried several mandolins in that $600-$1000 price range & none of come close to sound of the Weber. I've been looking for a 2nd mandolin and ended up ordering a custom build from Ratlif. I was looking at the TKD awhile ago but didn't find any real good info. from an owner of one.
Thanks
Lou

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## Bill Kammerzell

The Weber is the only mandolin I own that has better tone or volume. But the fit and finish of the Weber is beyond compare. Right now though I can't afford to own the Weber and this will replace it as a "go to" mandolin.

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## Bill Kammerzell

Right now I'm downsizing price wise. I can't afford to any longer own an expensive mandolin like my Weber. Can't get out enough to play and got too many medical bills to justify ownership of anything really frivolous. Time to let go.

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## Loubrava

> The Weber is the only mandolin I own that has better tone or volume. But the fit and finish of the Weber is beyond compare. Right now though I can't afford to own the Weber and this will replace it as a "go to" mandolin.


If it's good enough to replace your Weber that's great. Too bad we can't keep em all I'll be selling one as soon my Ratliff shows up and I've got an amp & guitar I've owned for 30 years on consignment to help fund another amp purchase. Hopefully I'll never have to sell the Weber. 
Thanks
Lou

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## Bill Kammerzell

You are welcome Lou. I don't want to part with this Weber either. At this time though, outside of my house or a car it's the biggest asset I have and its a luxury type asset rather than a necessity. Tough decision, but one I make logically.

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## JasperThisWorld

I purchased a Falcon from Kyle about six months ago.  My experience was very positive.  For the price, TKD mandolins have many features of found on more expensive mandolins.  You can certainly spend well over $5k for one built entirely in the US, but for the price, you can't go wrong with a TKD.  This replaced a well set-up Rogue - if you want to go really cheap - this is the way to go, BUT send it to Jerry Rosa in MO for the set-up.

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