# Song and Tune Projects > Song and Tune Projects >  Monroe's Break to "Back Up and Push"

## Alex Orr

So, I've been working through the Joe Carr Monroe book for the last few months and have arrived at "Back Up and Push."  This appears to be another case where Monroe only played half the song, much like in "Panhandle Country."  In "Back Up and Push", Monroe plays the B part while the fiddle handles the A part.  My biggest issue is that I am having a hell of time hearing the melody in Bill's break.  It's almost like he's just riffing on the chord changes via pieced together scale runs and licks.  Listening to other versions of this tune yields far more melodic B part sections, which I find very hard to hear in Bill's playing.  Am I just totally missing this aspect to Bill's solo, or is this one of those cases where he was just tossing the idea of sticking to a strong melody out the window in terms of aggressive improvising?  Any thought?

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## Amanda Gregg

I love Bill's break.  Yes, he is moving through the chord changes, but his break has a melody all its own.  He probably is borrowing a variation from the Texas contest fiddle repertoire, which is the tune's origin.  

Listen to it twenty times.  See if you can find a clip of Skip Gorman or Mike Compton playing it on youtube.  Then, use the Amazing Slowdowner on Bill's break.  Learning this break is a worthwhile investment.  It's so freakin cool.

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## John Gardinsky

What would Bill do? In this instance disregard the melody. I'd bet he could have played a decent example of the accepted melody if the mood struck him.

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## sachmo63

His break in that tune is Genius, my only advice is to slow it down and play one note at a time. Mac users can use Garage Band, pc users, well, go by a mac!

Anyway for all things Monroe look here. There is a TON of Monroe knowledge hanging around there.

Don't forget, slow it down and play it 1,000,000,000,000 times  :Smile:

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## tree

If you do manage to get Mr. Bill's break pretty close, you will not only have Back Up and Push, you'll also have a good bit of Rawhide in there too.  I remember when I was trying to work out Rawhide and discovered that Back Up and Push was very similar in a couple of the lines.  It was easier for me to hear the notes in Back Up and Push . . . but I still wish I had the Amazing Slowdowner.

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## Alex Orr

Oh, I'll get it down, but it's going to take some time.  I find it harder to memorize breaks in which the melody isn't as strong, and "Back Up and Push" is a very melodic song, both in the A and B parts, though, as noted, Bill seems to deviate from the more standard melody.  Carr's transcription is pretty accurate and the book comes with a CD in which he plays the break slowly, plus Transcribe is a great tool for slowing down Bill's original version.  I'm slowly working my way through the book and have everything that's come before "Back Up and Push" memorized and fairly well up to speeds that are comfortable for most jams, though rarely at the speeds of the recorded versions.  The only thing I've skipped so far in the book is learning Bill's break for "Fire On The Mountain" because it was a tad boring and the tune never gets called around here.  

I will say that one of the frustrating things about Carr's book is that many of the fiddle tune breaks are just for one part, either the A or B, and not the whole song.  Granted, this is not Carr's fault at all but merely reflects Bill's tendency to often only play one part and let the fiddle player handle the other part throughout the song, and the book was primarily meant as a source of learning Monroe's style through a number of his breaks, and not as a source for complete fiddle tune tabs.  That said, I's love to get a good idea of the A part to "Panhandle Country" on the mando because Mon's break for the B-part is a lot of fun.  I love it when Bill uses long periods of hammering partial chords and double stops in his breaks, especially when they're on the bass strings.  It just feels really rockin' to punch those things out, especially since my mando has a lot of volume on the low-end.

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## AlanN

An issue of Grisman's MWN transcribed both Bill's and Sam Bush's take on Panhandle Country, in C chord. Both A and B parts are noted out and dissected, with insight by Mike Marshall on each player's style and feel. Very Interesting.

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## sachmo63

> An issue of Grisman's MWN transcribed both Bill's and Sam Bush's take on Panhandle Country, in C chord. Both A and B parts are noted out and dissected, with insight by Mike Marshall on each player's style and feel. Very Interesting.


Interesting? Yes but wrong..........In order to get bills sound you'll NEVER get it from these guys. Don't get me wrong, they take the music to a new level but while they can play the notes it just doesn't convey what bill was doing. ( with the possible exception of grisman about 40 years ago...........maybe)

The fact that homespun used Sam bush to do a Monroe video years ago was laughable. (Ps. I love sam bush) but in what universe does he or did he sound like bill? I'm still agrivated with this and at the time, I knew little to nothin of what he was doing and now that I have a better idea of the hows and what's bill was aiming for I totally lost faith in homespun. Ps. I feel the same about the joe Carr book. I mean really, nothing against joe Carr but he's about as close to sounding like bill as Adam Steffy. 

Bill music is NOT about the notes, it's about the feel and there ain't no book in the world that's gunna give you that.

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## tree

> I will say that one of the frustrating things about Carr's book is that many of the fiddle tune breaks are just for one part, either the A or B, and not the whole song.  Granted, this is not Carr's fault at all but merely reflects Bill's tendency to often only play one part and let the fiddle player handle the other part throughout the song, and the book was primarily meant as a source of learning Monroe's style through a number of his breaks, and not as a source for complete fiddle tune tabs.


If there's some part I like and want to learn, I always try to learn it regardless of what instrument is playing it.  Don't let a nonmandolin part hold you back, try to learn it if you like it!  I can't tell you how many banjo, fiddle and guitar licks I've stolen to use on the mandolin . . . and it is great training for your ear to try to figure things out like that.

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## Cheryl Watson

If I work up a version this for a lesson, I will share the tab with ya'll.  I'm thinking more of the actual tune to Back up and Push, but in the Monroe style.

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## Alex Orr

> Interesting? Yes but wrong..........In order to get bills sound you'll NEVER get it from these guys. Don't get me wrong, they take the music to a new level but while they can play the notes it just doesn't convey what bill was doing. ( with the possible exception of grisman about 40 years ago...........maybe)
> 
> The fact that homespun used Sam bush to do a Monroe video years ago was laughable. (Ps. I love sam bush) but in what universe does he or did he sound like bill? I'm still agrivated with this and at the time, I knew little to nothin of what he was doing and now that I have a better idea of the hows and what's bill was aiming for I totally lost faith in homespun. Ps. I feel the same about the joe Carr book. I mean really, nothing against joe Carr but he's about as close to sounding like bill as Adam Steffy. 
> 
> Bill music is NOT about the notes, it's about the feel and there ain't no book in the world that's gunna give you that.


I think you're kind've missing the point, which is that, at least in the Homespun tapes and the Carr book, you have two excellent pickers, who are also very good teachers, analyzing breaks Monroe played HIMSELF for the edification of the person watching or reading.  They're not making up their own breaks and then passing them off as being Monroe breaks, nor are they advertising themselves as Monroe pickers.  I have plenty of major gripes about that horribly produced Homespun set, but none of those would involve Sam, who always stays true to trying to explain what, and why, Monroe was doing what he was doing.  I've found the Carr book to be very useful in helping the reader see certain approaches Monroe takes in his breaks, which has really helped me to begin to include some of those aspects in my own playing.  

I'm sure you play this style much better than I, but I tend to think that "feel" is something of a dead-end when approached from some mystical level.  Bill's solos sounded the way they did because he hit certain combination of notes, on a certain instrument, in a certain way.  The variables and technical difficulty involved make reproducing it a challenge, and to do it naturally really requires one to think on the instrument the way Bill thought.  If there is some more mystical aspect to "feel" then no one will ever come close and we should all give up.  However, I'd like to think elements of the style can be taught by good teachers (regardless of whether they are Monroe clones) and can be learned, at least to some small degree, even by rank hobbyists like myself through consistent and focused practice, study, repetition, and plain old trial and error.  In order to do that, I'm glad for the Carr book's contents, and even though I think it was a terribly produced and highly wasted opportunity, even the Homespun tape has plenty of good info from Sam.

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## Alex Orr

> If there's some part I like and want to learn, I always try to learn it regardless of what instrument is playing it.  Don't let a nonmandolin part hold you back, try to learn it if you like it!  I can't tell you how many banjo, fiddle and guitar licks I've stolen to use on the mandolin . . . and it is great training for your ear to try to figure things out like that.


I definitely plan on working out my own part to Panhandle Country's A section, if for not other reason than it does get called occassionally (though rarely) around here and I'd hate to only have half of it down.  The thing about "Back Up and Push" is that I play it in a pretty standard way, following the melody, so juxtaposing my A-part with Bill's B would sound pretty awkward.

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## sachmo63

"Feeling" is the epicenter of monroes playing. Remove feeling from his style and you have joe Carr!  

I admit I have not seen the Carr lesson but have seen Sam playing Monroe and lost interest in the first couple of minutes when Sam says he can't sound like Monroe.......what? Then why did they promote the lesson That way. 

Why not have Ricky Skaggs do a lesson on Jango Rhinehart.  I'm sure he can get the notes but he'll be in far left field when it comes to the actual STYLE which what we are discussing.

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## AlanN

Mike Marshall is the first to say it's tough to get the feeling of a player by notes on paper. But, his transcription of Bill's break on Panhandle Country is dead on. If I follow the written piece, I sound close. Exactly like Bill? No. Who does? Compton comes close, but still no, there.

It's Django Reinhardt, btw.

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## Alex Orr

> "Feeling" is the epicenter of monroes playing. Remove feeling from his style and you have joe Carr!


I think the Skaggs/Django thing is a bit of a stretch.  Bush and Carr are experienced, professional *bluegrass* mandolin players well versed in Monroe's style, even if they choose to pursue a more individualized expression.  Gypsy jazz is an entirely different genre than bluegrass.  Are you saying that Monroe style mandolin is as different from how Carr and Bush play bluegrass as gypsy jazz is from bluegrass?  That just seems like a serious overstatement.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by feeling.  Is it some mystical magic that comes from the unique soul of the person expressing itself through the instrument...or just the way the musician chooses notes and plays them?  I don't believe in the notion of the soul, so I kind've reject the former.  Also, if the feeling is really predicated entirely on subjective aspects of the players personality, and has NOTHING to do with the actual notes he's playing, then it seems ot me that due to human individuality, NO ONE can ever play remotely like anyone else, so in that regard, there is no reason for anyone to ever try and learn the style of any other person.  

As you may have guessed, I kind've reject the supremacy of something as amorphous as "feeling" over the actual notes that are played.  It's like saying that Michael Jordan wasn't a great basketball player because of what he did on the court but instead it was the feeling with which he did it.  As best as I can tell, musicians do have styles in terms of the thinking behind what they play, and of course the actual notes they play and how they play them.  Considering that I probably will never have the exact "feeling" of Monroe, since, well, I'm not Monroe, I'm happy learning that as well as I can and then doing what I can with it.  No, I'll never sound exactly like him, but hopefully I'll have a better ability to incorporate significant portions of a style I adore into my playing, which for an amateur hobbyist like me is a real accomplishment.  Like I said before, Sam's a pretty good teacher.  Lots of guys who make videos are just lousy in front of a camera and at explaining things, no matter how talented, and Sam is definitely NOT in that camp, which I think makes him a good choice.  Furthermore, while he does not play like a Monroe clone, I'm guessing he has enough of an inkling about what Monroe does to teach a basic video lesson on the topic.  Third, the solos he's teaching are actually played by Monroe, so I assume they at least sound like Monroe, even if Sam never teaches how to mentally and spiritually channel Monroe's innermost feeling through the student's instrument.  

Debate on the Homespun tape aside, I thoroughly concede that I may be missing something, so, out of curiosity, how do you think someone should go about learning Monroe style, from scratch?  If none of the materials available are any good, and I only have about 30-45 minutes a day to practice my instrument, and I can't afford lessons, how would you recommend that I proceed?

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## sachmo63

Alex, I'm sorry to be confrontational in the past posts but I am pretty passionate about this subject. Obviously. 

So my advise IF you want to delve into Monroes style is as follows. 
(To all others who think I'm crazy  :Cow: )

*First thing* is contact someone for lessons. My suggestions are Chris Henry https://www.facebook.com/defgrass?fref=nf

And /or 

Mike Compton
https://www.facebook.com/taterbugmusic?ref=ts&fref=ts

Both guys are powerhouses but come from different philosophies (imho) they're about the same price and I guarentee your not going to get through their info by the next lesson. 

*#2* don't listen to anything else other than Monroe. Sugarmegs has a TON of live stuff for FREE if you don't have all the box sets. YouTube is another example, tons of stuff there too. (This be extreme but as buddy Roscoe Morgon says)

 "If one cannot hear implied melodic detail within the designed limitation of arpeggio vs. scale, the Monroe style will never be realized." And this is a skill that can be acquired, it takes a different part of your brain but it's imperitive to understanding what he was doing. 

*3* Practice what you can hear, stay away from stuff too complicated and absolutely stay away from any other NON Monroe player. This will completely screw you up because if you spend your time researching, lessening, listening and practicing the Monroe Style and the think you can just dabble with another player you'll be kidding yourself and wasting all your time. 

Now let me explain the other more progressive styles are fine but Monroes style requires complete attention (imho) and in the learning process requires complete immersion. Once you have it or understand it then you own it and pick and choose when to use it.

Just me 2c

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## ralph johansson

Whenever I want to slow down a music file I use Quick Time 7: click "Show A/V Controls" in the Window menu.

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## BradKlein

I'll leave the philosophizing to others and just mention that:
a) I also like the Quick Time 7 AV controls for slowing videos
b) Kenny Baker recorded Back Up and Push on Frost on the Pumpkin, and that may be a good source to learn the tune.
c) You may also want to learn KB's distinctive way of wearing his hat. Worked for Noam Pikelny!

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## ralph johansson

> So, I've been working through the Joe Carr Monroe book for the last few months and have arrived at "Back Up and Push."  This appears to be another case where Monroe only played half the song, much like in "Panhandle Country."  In "Back Up and Push", Monroe plays the B part while the fiddle handles the A part.  My biggest issue is that I am having a hell of time hearing the melody in Bill's break.  It's almost like he's just riffing on the chord changes via pieced together scale runs and licks.  Listening to other versions of this tune yields far more melodic B part sections, which I find very hard to hear in Bill's playing.  Am I just totally missing this aspect to Bill's solo, or is this one of those cases where he was just tossing the idea of sticking to a strong melody out the window in terms of aggressive improvising?  Any thought?


As I recall, on the Victor recording he played the same solo twice. Not what I would call improvising.

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## ralph johansson

> Interesting? Yes but wrong..........In order to get bills sound you'll NEVER get it from these guys. Don't get me wrong, they take the music to a new level but while they can play the notes it just doesn't convey what bill was doing. ( with the possible exception of grisman about 40 years ago...........maybe)
> 
> The fact that homespun used Sam bush to do a Monroe video years ago was laughable. (Ps. I love sam bush) but in what universe does he or did he sound like bill? I'm still agrivated with this and at the time, I knew little to nothin of what he was doing and now that I have a better idea of the hows and what's bill was aiming for I totally lost faith in homespun. Ps. I feel the same about the joe Carr book. I mean really, nothing against joe Carr but he's about as close to sounding like bill as Adam Steffy. 
> 
> Bill music is NOT about the notes, it's about the feel and there ain't no book in the world that's gunna give you that.


Oh, yes, that´s what makes Monroe so absolutely unique, everybody else´s playing of course is all about notes, not feeling.

 Really, a book is a book, transcriptions are transcriptions, an aid towards understanding, theoretically, what's going on in the solos. For the actual sound you'll still  have to consult the records.
The same goes for the Bush DVD; it's a companion volume to the other DVD with Monroe and the band  playing his tunes. Bush's job was to break down Monroe's playing and offer the verbal explanations that Monroe was incapable of.

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## ralph johansson

> Alex, I'm sorry to be confrontational in the past posts but I am pretty passionate about this subject. Obviously. 
> 
> So my advise IF you want to delve into Monroes style is as follows. 
> (To all others who think I'm crazy )
> 
> *First thing* is contact someone for lessons. My suggestions are Chris Henry https://www.facebook.com/defgrass?fref=nf
> 
> And /or 
> 
> ...



"Passionate" is one way of putting it, another might be "religious". Most of us would follow the advice  not to listen to just one single player, one single instrument, or even one single genre - if creativity is your aim. How do you think Monroe arrived at his laguage?

 And, of course, you forget the importance of superhigh action, being crosseyed and playing a July 9, 1923, Gibson F5.

To absorb Monroe´s blues language many years ago  I needed just the four bar introduction to Bluegrass Pt.1, the combination of the two approaches: harmonic (following the chord changes) and modal (superimposing the blues scale). Then, off to work, experimenting, exploring. The musician's approach.

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