# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  Jig picking

## Bren

Perennial topic I know, but I've been re-reading some comments on pick direction to see if I can improve my jig playing.
At the moment I proceed in haphazard fashion, mostly DUDUDU, getting round the awkward bits with hammer-ons, pull-offs, cross-picking, going up & down the same string etc. Atholl Highlanders seems to have all of the above, as well as starting with an upstroke for some reason.

Not very satisfactory but I get by, playing with others - I just avoid playing jigs solo if I can! Wouldn't be so bad except I've been doing this for 30 years.

I've read Dan's comments about DDU and like it in theory but I just cannot get my hand to do it. It's like (I imagine) a golfer trying to change his swing. Strangely, my left hand seems wedded to DUDU too on most tunes. If I try DDU, on the second "down" my left hand plays the next note that would have been a "down"-stroke instead of just playing the "up" note with a down-stroke.

I have similar problems with DUD DUD although local players whose rhythm I admire seem to get good results from this.

Assuming that it's worth persevering to change the habits of a lifetime, can anyone recommend good tunes or melodic exercises to help establish the new picking patterns? Either DDU or DUD, or perhaps both

I have noticed I already do DDU DDU on the opening phrases of Tripping Up the Stairs but then revert to DUDUDU

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## JeffD

I think the correct way is DUD DUD. I sometimes play DUD UDU, with approriate emphasis on the downbeat, and have had no problem with it, though the mandorthodoxy cringe.

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## zoukboy

Hey Bren,

Try practicing this outside the context of any melody, as a 1/4 note/1/8 note pattern in 6/8 with downstrokes only.

Like this:
D   D D   D&#124;D   D D   D
1 2 3 4 5 6&#124;1 2 3 4 5 6

You might want to try this on a drone note along with a recording.

Once you're really comfortable with this then add the upstroke on 2 and 5 and you're there.

I find it really helps to work on this separately from tunes until it's second nature.

The next step is to apply this to a NEW tune, not one you already know. Be careful and watch to make sure you maintain this pattern as you learn the notes of the new tune. Make it a simple one - I can recommend several, but "Blarney Pilgrim" is a good one for this if you don't already know it.

Good luck!

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## John Flynn

I recognize that the DUD DUD helps give a jig a certain "bounce" that seems to be a requirement for Irish Traditional Music and that it may represent "the law" with the ITM Police, many of whom don't like mandolins as lead instruments anyway. However, with any picking sequence, a jig is still a jig. When I have heard jigs played in old-time music, which is rare, the pick direction does not seem to be so much of an issue. So you have to decide: Are you afraid of the ITM Police, or are you a "Jig Outlaw?" Me, I'm getting sick to death of "Genre Cops," who seem to think thier rules about the music are more important than why the music is being played in the first place. But that is just me. Everyone has to walk thier own road.

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## zoukboy

> I recognize that the DUD DUD helps give a jig a certain "bounce" that seems to be a requirement for Irish Traditional Music and that it may represent "the law" with the ITM Police, many of whom don't like mandolins as lead instruments anyway. However, with any picking sequence, a jig is still a jig. When I have heard jigs played in old-time music, which is rare, the pick direction does not seem to be so much of an issue. So you have to decide: Are you afraid of the ITM Police, or are you a "Jig Outlaw?" Me, I'm getting sick to death of "Genre Cops," who seem to think thier rules about the music are more important than why the music is being played in the first place. But that is just me. Everyone has to walk thier own road.


It's not a law, Mando Johnny, but it is customary. Why? Because it *works*. Really well. YMMV. :-)

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## John Flynn

> It's not a law, Mando Johnny, but it is customary. Why? Because it *works*. Really well. YMMV. :-)


Well, you are absolutely right if you personally choose to do it that way and it makes you sound good and nothing more. That's wonderful. It's "the law," in the sense I meant it, if someone sounds good, but different, doing it another way, but gets dissed for it at a session. Tell me it doesn't happen. :-) right back at ya.

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## JeffD

> if someone sounds good, but different, doing it another way, but gets dissed for it at a session. Tell me it doesn't happen. #:-) right back at ya.


I have never been dissed at a session because my technique is not orthodox - if the tune comes out good.

I have been dissed at sessions for not knowing the tunes in their "sacred" canon, played a tune in an unfamiliar way, (I didn't get the memo), introducing a new (not as orthodox as they want) tune to the jam, because my mandolin sounds too much like a Gibson (it is one after all) or because it is not Gibson enough (huh?), because "we only play reels" (true story) or because I missed thier last get together and don't remember why.

All of these are overcome by patience, a humble attitude, not being easily bothered, and that I can play a good 40% of the tunes (and another 20% the second time I attend) at just about any jam, with enough skill and authority to get respect. 

Even when I DUD UDU.



Of course if the tune comes out lousy things might be different. But in that case I am willing to listen to how I might make it better.

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## John Flynn

JeffD:

I agree and my hat is off to you. I didn't have that kind of patience or humble attitude (Yeah, I know how shocked everyone will be to read that!) with my local session. I don't get the "only reels" thing, though. My local session would have sent those folks packing!

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## JeffD

Its a true story. An Irish session at a brew pub, I won't say where, but sufficient to say I have met others of this particular stripe on both sides of the Atlantic. This one button box player kind of ran things, and would sit out with a focused petulant huff if the tune wasn't a reel. The first time I was "huffed" I didn't understand, and it had to be explained to me off line later.

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## JeffD

PS, the button box player knew all these really cool reels however, stuff I never heard of and wanted to learn. So I sucked it up and played along. I learned a lot of nice tunes that night.

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## oggiesnr

I come to this from playing for the feis so the important thing is to emphasise the beat for the dancer. I would play the beat on a down pick (I know my up pick is not as strong) but after that it's up for grabs and also dependant on ornamentation. For example, a triplet of three Gs would usually be played GaGf#G either as dudud or using hammer on and pull offs, the important part is that the next note in the sequence is a beat and so down.

A 6/8 jig is a double jig, things get more complex with 9/8 (slip jigs) and 12/8 (slides).. this is because of the use of the crotchet/quaver pattern to give an extra rhythm to the dance where the crotchet ends a passage and the quaver leads into the next. Although this happens at the end of many double jigs, in slips and slides it happens within the part (listen to Foxhunters Jig). This internal rhythm needs to be emphasised so again a strait DUD or UDU may not work.

I suppose the bottom line is listen to the music, work out the emphasis and adjust your picking accordingly.

All the best

steve

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## JeffD

> I suppose the bottom line is listen to the music, work out the emphasis and adjust your picking accordingly.


Thats it in a nutshell. It aint't played correctly if it don't sound good, nomatter how orthodox your technique - and if you can be effective playing the tune, keep it up, yer doin something right.

With all do respect however, various teachers can make a world of difference, and what suggestions at first feel awkward may in time prove to be technique that allow you to quickly master more kinds of music than playing it the easy way.

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## danb

If you don't interrupt the pattern, it pretty much doesn't work. Mechanically, something is wrong, and you'll be fighting it forever rather than achieving the ease and flow you get with DUD DUD or DDU DDU

I've seen a lot of folks work very hard to adapt DUD UDU to sound right, and so far haven't seen any successes. It gets you to the struggling and just about working out level, but the ease of the mechanical side of the broken pattern is the only way I've ever seen work to take someone to the next level.

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## 12 fret

The DUD DUD is essential. You need to start each 3 note sequence on a downstroke. This becomes vital when you add a 3-5 note roll on the 1st note of a sequence.

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## zoukboy

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> It's not a law, Mando Johnny, but it is customary. Why? Because it *works*. Really well. YMMV. :-) 
> 
> 
> Well, you are absolutely right if you personally choose to do it that way and it makes you sound good and nothing more. That's wonderful. It's "the law," in the sense I meant it, if someone sounds good, but different, doing it another way, but gets dissed for it at a session. Tell me it doesn't happen. :-) right back at ya.


It's not the "law," Mando Johnny. What you are describing is bad behavior. Dissing people in sessions, for whatever reason, is unacceptable. If someone *is* behaving badly, or playing in a way that doesn't suit the music, then they should be gently told so. On the other hand, anyone who disses a player in a session for their technique is a jerk and should be told so. It's that simple

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## Bren

Thanks for the help. I have to keep practising this.

Nobody's "dissed" my technique except me, it's just something I'd like to do better, so I can play it the way I want to, rather than the only way I can. I'm not aware of anyone sitting round analysing other people's techniques at any session or band I've been in and it wouldn't bother me anyway.

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## PseudoCelt

I changed from DUD UDU to DUD DUD when I joined a mandolin class a few years ago. The general standard of the players in the class was fairly low, so I had to play the same tunes over and over, very slowly, allowing me to pick whichever way I chose. 

When I practice by myself, I don't usually have the self-discipline to play a tune ten or fifteen times at a very slow tempo. My overall playing got a lot better after being in the class.

In Aberdeen, SCaT will be running banjo/mandolin classes, starting sometime in September (beginners on Mondays, intermediates on Wednesdays, I think). Might be worth signing up for a term.

Patrick

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## Steve L

I used to think that it wasn't that critical, but after both John McGann and Matt Heaton asked me "...if I had ever tried DUD DUD?" I took the hint. It really makes a difference.

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## Bren

Thanks for reminding me Patrick, I'll think I'll go to the SCaT class on the Wednesday, leaving Monday free for the Lampie. I won't be travelling for a while so should get value out of it. 
Tim Jones is running it and I remember him saying he learned DUD DUD from the start (from Kevin MacLeod I think. There may only be one degree of separation between every mandolin player in Scotland!) so perhaps he'll keep me right.

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## mikeyes

The reason that those very good players advocate DUD DUD is not tradition (Heaven knows that there is very little tradition in Irish trad mandolin playing to begin with) but practicality. #Mandolins are double coursed instruments which require a lot of energy to activate the strings and the tops of the instruments, more than Zouks or OM because of the short scale. #In order to get a full sound you have to make sure that both strings have the same amount of energy (this from both Roger Landes and Andy Statman) so the use of a downstroke on the first and fourth beats (emphasized in jigs) allows for a better tone. #Trying to make the same tone on an up stroke is a lot more difficult because the tendency is to not hit the second course as hard with the pick and to swing away from it on an up stroke.

The second reason has to do with the 123 456 lilt of jigs. The six strokes are not even, there is a subtle change with a louder 1 and a slighty less loud 4 stroke. #It is easier to make this work consistently with DUD DUD and the lilt carries through much more automatically with that pattern. #

I just did a survey of top level banjo players (including GO'C and Mick Moloney) and they say the same thing, mostly for the second reason since banjos don't need the same energy requirements for good tone production. #

DUD DUD is not tradition as much as it is a practical matter.

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## Lawrence Molloy

very confusing for a beginner this, especially when you've had the dududu drummed into your head. at the minute i just can't manage the dud dud, i gonna have to actually write it down beside each note to see if that helps.

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## stevebenn

This is a "perrenial" favorite topic ... and I grow to enjoy it more with each passing year!. But one thing that always seems to get lost is that no one really plays jigs DUDDUD, DDUDDU, or DUDUDU ... unless they are playing completely unornamented melodies! While I play the basic DUDDUD (and it should be the law) I also begin all of my triplets with a down pick ... so if I'm putting a triplet on the back two notes of a three-note sequence I play DDUD DDUD... requiring two down picks in a row ... so for me having a basic pick pattern (DUDDUD) that I can modify as needed is important ... I bet it's important to Roger too!

SteveB

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## PseudoCelt

> at the minute i just can't manage the dud dud, i gonna have to actually write it down beside each note to see if that helps.


You could try saying "down" out loud as you play the first note of each group of three. Actually hearing yourself saying "down" should have a greater effect than just thinking "down".

Patrick

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## Shana Aisenberg

DUD DUD is my default picking for jigs, however I like to vary it, sometimes by using hammer ons or pull offs, thus not picking every note, or DUD UDU for a passage, applying fiddle bowing patterns, grace notes, etc.

Seth

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## 12 fret

[QUOTE] very confusing for a beginner this, especially when you've had the dududu drummed into your head. at the minute i just can't manage the dud dud, i gonna have to actually write it down beside each note to see if that helps. 

If it helps, I select my picking sequence based on type of tune. DUD DUD is used for 6/8 , 9/8 tunes. DUDU for 2/4 ,3/4, 4/4. D dD dD for shuffle blues

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## Steve L

> very confusing for a beginner this, especially when you've had the dududu drummed into your head. at the minute i just can't manage the dud dud, i gonna have to actually write it down beside each note to see if that helps.


[QUOTE]

I really think Roger's suggestion above is excellent for learning this.

Johnny, getting that bounce in the jig is a huge carrot on the stick for us. If old time players want to play with a different emphasis when they get together, it's "don't ask, don't tell" as far as I'm concerned. A lot of folks that don't play jigs all the time play 8 bars of 6/8 that feel like 4 bars of 4/4 sub-divided into triplets...more like a shuffle. If someone came into a bluegrass jam and started chopping on 1 and 3 , it would kind of be like peeing in the pool for the rest of the players who like that genre the way it is.

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## Lawrence Molloy

thanks. don't know if this is any help bren or even makes sense, i'm in the same boat as yourself regarding this,but i've been practising the dud dud pattern today, just playing it on an open string while listening to the humours of glendart,(a bit like playing the bodhran, i think dan b mentioned in another thread that druming might help), i'm now able to keep the dud dud going ok. just have to add the notes now and i'm there #  . aren't challenges enjoyable.

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## zoukboy

[QUOTE= (Steve L @ Aug. 24 2007, 07:00)]


> I really think Roger's suggestion above is excellent for learning this.


I've used this approach in numerous workshops and classes over the years and it works really well. Starting with what strikes a lot of folks as counterintuitive - the two downstrokes in a row - it is possible to get over the perception of a barrier pretty quickly.

I have students do this at a very slow tempo while I play a jig with exaggerated swing (more like a 6/8 pipe march with a clearly dotted rhythm). After they are able to match the rhythm of the tune with the all downstroke pattern D&#124;D DD D&#124;D DD D&#124; we introduce the upstroke to fill in the six eighth note of the bar, delaying the upstroke to effectively lengthen the 1st and 4th notes.

By slowing down and exaggerating the swing of a jig it makes it easier to integrate this pattern of uneven eighth notes.

When they are comfortable with this and it starts to sound fluent then we increase the tempo slightly and gradually, evening out the note values until there is just a slight lengthening of the the 1st and 4th eighth notes in the bar by oh so slightly delaying the 2nd and 5th notes. At this point what we are playing is pretty durn close to a jig - at least the idea gets across and the whole process takes minutes.

The reason why so many players do not like a reciprocal picking pattern for jigs - DUD UDU - is that the second delayed note in the bar, the 5th, is an downstroke instead of a upstroke, giving it more of an emphasis than it really needs. This, and the fact that the 4th and 6th notes are upstrokes makes it sound like the second half of the bar is upside down. I think it is far more difficult to make a jig sound natural that way than it is to just learn DUD DUD.

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## Lawrence Molloy

forgive my greeness but would all triplets in a jig be started with a down stroke ?

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## danb

Depends on where you put them, so no!

D udu d udu 
Or
Dud u dud u

To make the phrase.

I personally frame with

Ddu ddu

So triplets for me are
Dud u dud u
Or
D udu d udu
Or 
D dud d dud
Or even
D dudu d dudu (4 16ths instead of triplets)

There are subtle differences in the rhythms those each produce.

I also use pull-off triplets as much if not more than picked ones. Sometimes one sort followed by the other.

Part of it for me is just never getting bored of favorite tunes, so i tend to work out lots of variety in the ornaments

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## jmcgann

Actually, Kieran Hanrahan (of Stockton's Wing and also the host of a trad. RTE radio show) insists on playing jigs DUDUDU and made it very plain at Gaelic Roots several years ago that it was "better and helps you avoid tendinitis". He says that you can make the upstroke accent as strong as a downstroke.

He's a lovely player.

Personally, it's DUD DUD for me as well as the basic 6/8 default. Feels good, sounds good, is good.

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## mikeyes

John,

On a banjo you can play DUDUDU, especially at the skill level of Kieran Hanrahan, because it does not need the same pick/energy requirements that a mandolin does. #

Banjos are made to be loud and you can play one with a flimsy pick and get away with a lot of technical things that would not work on a mandolin. As you know, mandolins have double courses and the pick energy/mass requirements needed for good tone are very different. #And good tone is paramount as far as I am concerned.

I suspect you can play a mandolin with my acetyl .50 pick and be able to play DUDUDU and get the same (awful) tone as you would with DUD DUD.

I play DUDUDU on the banjo at times, mostly knowing I did so after the fact since I don't pay much attention to what happens on the banjo. #But on the mandolin I have to use DUD DUD or the jig will not work very well.

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## JeffD

> Actually, Kieran Hanrahan (of Stockton's Wing and also the host of a trad. RTE radio show) insists on playing jigs DUDUDU and made it very plain at Gaelic Roots several years ago that it was "better and helps you avoid tendinitis". He says that you can make the upstroke accent as strong as a downstroke.


Woo hoo!


Thats what I do a lot of the time. You have to change the emphasis as appropriate to the tune, but its one heck of a lot easier to change the emphasis than it is to change the picking. And the transistions to other rythems are much easier.

When I play DUD-DUD I feel like I am standing on one leg. I can do a lot, but I can't react quickly to changes.

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## Bren

Hmmm.

First of all thanks for the generous contributions.

Well I'm persevering with the DUD DUD practice, using Roger's suggestion of D-D,D-D shuffle as a starting point. It feels very clumsy so far, but it's early days. To be honest I couldn't really discern any difference in emphasis when I was playing DUD UDU in most tunes - I think I compensated automatically - but I was losing my way in some others and that's where I think DUD DUD might help.

I'm not too sure exactly what I've been playing on a lot of tunes - when I look at my hand, or slow it down, I think I play differently. It seems sometimes I've been playing DUD DUD without realising it - it depends a lot on what string the next or last note is on.

It's really the banjo where it bothers me more, so mention of Kieran Hanrahan's ideas is welcome. I've developed some sort of tendon pain through using a laptop for three months solid recently and I definitely feel it more when I try fast consecutive downstrokes.

Nevertheless I'm trying to develop the freedom to play that way when it's appropriate. I'll report back in a week or two if there's any progress

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## JeffD

> I've developed some sort of tendon pain through using a laptop for three months solid recently and I definitely feel it more when I try fast consecutive downstrokes.


Yea, typing DUDDUD on my lap top is wearing me out.

 

Good luck.

Try recording yourself and playing it back, and see which you like better.

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## whistler

> You could try saying "down" out loud as you play the first note of each group of three.


You'd be sure to get dissed in a session for that, Patrick.

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## jmcgann

[quote=whistler,Aug. 30 2007, 10:54]


> You could try saying "down" out loud as you play the first note of each group of three.
> 
> You'd be sure to get dissed in a session for that, Patrick.


I don't know, many players in sessions become increasingly delusional as the night rolls on. I've hear stranger sounds barked both from players and the audience #

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## whistler

"Down! Down! Down! Down!...."

It sounds quite menacing. I think I'd probably get up and leave.

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## stevebenn

I certainly wouldn't disagree with Kieran Hanrahan, he's a favorite, but I would add that I've spent some time, at workshops etc., watching John Carty and Mick Moloney pretty closely and I'm reasonably sure they start all their triplets on down picks ... so in many ways it is a personal preference. Hey Roger ... how about you ... if I remeber correctly your triplets all begin on downstrokes don't they?

Here are some "considerations" I would put out as "food for thought" on this issue. I believe it is physically impossible, even for Kieran H., to produce the same "sound" from an up pick that he would from a down pick, or use the same "technique" to achieve them ... though he probably comes closer than we mere mortals. Put your thumb on your desk/table top and push down, then put your index finger under same and "push" up. You're using different muscle groups in your arm/wrist and you can feel the "strength" of your push down vs. the strain of the push up. Couple this with your pick angle ... it would take micro-second pick adjustments at every change of stroke to produce the exactly equivalent pick angle at each stroke. So, physics and human physiology combine to create different ... even if subtly different ... sounds for different pick strokes ... and that's not a bad thing at all in my opinion. But, it does mean, I believe, that you will need to develop/learn/practice two somewhat different techniques for producing triplets if you're going to do them on both down and upstrokes ... and it's likely that they will never be "exactly equivalent" ... which may or may not matter to you. So I'm "lazy" and stick with the triplets on downstrokes! ... and it's hard enough hitting them consistently in one direction!!

Some players, especially beginners, will try to "achieve" triplets using thin picks ... once again a "personal taste" issue to some degree, but there's a downside to using too thin a pick, even on a banjo which is inherently louder. A pick is essentially a lever that transfers energy from your hand/arm to the string. In order to work properly the pick has to collide with a string, "pass" through the string, recover and do it all over, again and again. A thin pick allows/encourages you to grip it tightly and you rely on the flex of the pick for the "pass through" phase ... but it actually increases the recovery phase. A tightly held thin pick flexes at the "pass through" stage, then has to return (snap back) to its original shape before the next stroke. When you're playing fast triplets with real thin picks you may not complete the recovery phase before the next pick stroke ... it's like that thin pick gets "stuck" on the string. 

A thicker pick will force you to accomodate the "pass through" phase with a "looser" grip and will decrease the recovery time. This actually allows you to relax your right hand from the "death grip" you might use on a thin pick ... and relaxation is good. You can also "improve" the "pass through" phase of your thicker pick by modifying the tip ... rounder is better ... how much rounder is a matter of personal preference. I love Mick O'Connor's quote about picks ..."they're like little birds, hold them too tight and they die, too loose and they fly away"! 

So, just some ideas to mull over ... but as a wise man once said "it's all good"!

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## A Brown

It's worth remembering that jigs are, fundamentally, dance tunes. DUD DUD gets the rhythm that helps the dancers.

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## zoukboy

> Hey Roger ... how about you ... if I remember correctly your triplets all begin on downstrokes don't they?


Yep!Guilty as charged, my friend!

Good points you made, Steve. One nice thing about a thin pick on a banjo, particularly for those of us who spend most of our plectrumificating hours on mando or bouzouki, is that it won't allow you to play too hard - a thin pick won't hold up to a heavy hand.

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## Bren

a wee update for those who are interested:
I have to say I'm still struggling to play DUD DUD . I'm able to do it more often than I used to but the consecutive down strokes still feel unnatural and I do get a wee bit of tendon pain at times. Sometimes I will get right through a tune OK but then my hand will sort of *spasm* and refuse to do it on the repeat

I found that I can just about do it steadily at moderate speed, but if I go to a pub session, I revert to my old ways of playing on most phrases, just to keep up.

It definitely has a lot to do with string sequence for me - it's not so difficult to do on consecutive triplets that stay on the same string.
The SCAT classes have been helpful - Tim has selected a range of good tunes that also make us think about technique, and it's always good to have a focus for learning tunes

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## Bertram Henze

I do whatever fits fast string change, triplets (which I do both DUD and UDU) and double stops (which I do on downstroke only). My upstrokes don't sound different from my downstrokes (try to tell which is which in this older recording). I am too old to relearn 20 years of practice anyway. Works for me - and my hint for all those struggling with correctness: if what you do works for you, don't change it - life is too short.

Bertram

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## Bren

I agree Bertram, but the reason I started on this is that it wasn't working satisfactorily for me. It's not about discarding what works, but adding another .... erm, flick to my pick. Life isn't that short that we can't try something new - I hope!

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## Bertram Henze

> I agree Bertram, but the reason I started on this is that it wasn't working satisfactorily for me. It's not about discarding what works, but adding another .... erm, flick to my pick. Life isn't that short that we can't try something new - I hope!


As they say - YMMV, and, of course, I was making just my own statement, not directed at anyone in particular. There's new things to learn for me, too, no doubt about it - just different ones.

Reminds me, I should drop by in Scotland again sometime. Send my regards to all the midges, because they seemed to really like me  

Bertram

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## twaaang

Bouncing this one to the top for the benefit of a new member who asked a related question. -- Paul

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## Bren

OK, I'm making some progress with this, although I still seem to revert to DUDUDU in a fast session or gig situation. But not all the time - I suppose that's a sign of progress. I'm trying to get it a bit more relaxed and fluid. It sounds a bit clumpety-clumpety at the moment I feel.
I'm still not that happy with it and never play a jig if I'm starting a tune in a session.
Most successful tunes for DUD DUD have been "Rory MacLeod" and "Donald Ian Rankin" - I don't think I'd have been able to play the latter anywhere near properly without learning it as DUD DUD

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## JeffD

I was perusing some mandolin music at a local store and found a book of Irish tunes for mandolin, where the author specifically recommends DUD UDU. 

I forget the author's name but I have to go back there next week as they are re-hairing a bow for me, and I will get the name of the book and author for you all.

Not that one expert in opposition balances the preponderance of opinion, but at least it is good to know that the matter is not unanimous.

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## salmoncove

I play bodhran and the beat for jigs is dududu.
I'm a beginner with a mandolin and tenor banjo and the dududu is coming very natural for me.

Ken

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## John of Patcham

I think it is good to be able to do it both ways round. If you can do DUD DUD then that is going to be good for passages that go like:

&#124; &#124; &#124; &#124; &#124; &#124; &#124; &#124; &#124;
e A A f# A A g A A

It also sets you up nicely to be able to play triplets in a reel. 

However, the main reason why your downstroke tends to be stronger than your upstroke is pick angle. Get that going nicely at right angles to the strings then there is no reason why you can't emulate the bodhran (as per the previous post) and play DUDUDU with emphasis on beats 1 and 4. Sometimes, depending on the context of the music, that will sound more fluent than DUD DUD.

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## Lawrence Molloy

i for one am very grateful to Bren for starting this thread as it made me knuckle down and learn dud dud, i think it was mike that said jigs come alive when played this way and they certainly do, an added benefit is that my triplets started with a down stroke have improved greatly, for some reason i was playing most triplets on the up and still do when playing reels. thanks Bren.

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## SMHibbs

It took me a long time to get jigs to sound the way they should, and I heard all kinds of advice about picking patterns. I noticed that every pattern works for somebody. So, finally, I quit worrying about it.

My 'secret', if there is one, is to focus on the sound I'm getting rather than on which way my pick is moving. Then everything works out OK. After all, the sound is what it's about. When I do take time to pay attention to my pick, I find myself using different patterns at different times. It seems to depend on where the pick needs to go next to keep the music flowing and the motion economical. All this is equally true for me on mandolin or guitar.

SMH

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## Bren

all good stuff

Lawrence, I think this is a technical topic of ongoing interest to a "silent majority" of players and I'm aware of a few people following this thread who don't normally post so will keep bumping it up with updates

the goal for me is not necessarily to play DUD DUD all the time, but get comfortable enough with it so that the choice is there.

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## Bren

Since this topic has popped up yet again, I thought I'd update a bit on my progress:

I now play DUD DUD pretty much all the time for jigs, having started to change during an enforced lay-up in 2007, after more than 20 years playing DUDU.

It does limit speed, so I do tend to revert to "whatever" when playing in very fast ceilidh or session sets. But that very fast tempo is set by someone else. (usually a piano accordion player!)

With DUD DUD, I'm able to start a jig confidently on my own and keep a steady tempo. I couldn't do that before.

I'd say the change was worth it

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## Loretta Callahan

Alrighty then.  There's some great stuff in this thread.  I've got it bookmarked and I'm may revisit it in six months or so. It's kind of mind bending, yet compelling for me right now.

 I'm realizing I'm just too green to make an educated comment on this stuff, except that I try to keep my rhythms proper.  Also, I'm finding I'm a bit all over the map at times with my picking and not sure what I'm doing except to make the music sound the way I think it should. I may be kidding myself ~ time will tell.

I might try some of the ideas mentioned here and talk to my teacher when I start lessons again, practice and report back when the weather warms up!

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## Bren

Loretta, everything here has been interesting to me - I'd say I got the most practical help from Roger Landes "zoukboy" posts on the first page.
He's quite right that it was easier for me to play DUD DUD on new tunes, rather than on ones I knew already so hopefully that will work for you.
I might give DDU DDU a try sometime but I don't have the luxury of uninterrupted practice time that I had in 2007

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## Loretta Callahan

Amen, Bren!  I'll check out Mr. Landes posts, but it boils down to the luxury of uninterrupted time to practice, doesn't it?  I catch myself going DUDUDU, then DDU, DDU ~ but really have no control or discipline with it.  May have to swing a dead chicken or something to please the muses enough to find that time. :Wink: 




> Loretta, everything here has been interesting to me - I'd say I got the most practical help from Roger Landes "zoukboy" posts on the first page.
> He's quite right that it was easier for me to play DUD DUD on new tunes, rather than on ones I knew already so hopefully that will work for you.
> I might give DDU DDU a try sometime but I don't have the luxury of uninterrupted practice time that I had in 2007

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