# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  the mandolin in bluegrass?

## TheBlindBard

Hello, all,
A few days ago we went to go buy some plants for our backyard and wound up buying this cool-looking grass that was a blueish-grey in color.
I laughed and made a joke about bluegrass. Then started wondering: How is the mandolin used in bluegrass? I don't listen to it much but really love the name and would like to listen to it more, but not sure where to start. I know in ITM the mandolin is mainly used for melody, but know little to nothing about bluegrass.
thanks

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## Jordan Mong

The mandolin, to me, seemed much more primarily a bluegrass instrument, and never thought about it being used in many other genres of music outside of folk and various country. The mandolin in bluegrass is melody, mainly. Fast picking just like a banjo, tough to miss.

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## TheArimathean

The mandolin, in bluegrass, also provides that characteristic bluegrass "chunk" on the off-beats, known as "chopping".

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Eric Michael Pfeiffer

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## OldSausage

According to my wife, it is also responsible for that tedious but signature "deedle-deedle" noise, along with a fair bit of "plinky-plinky".

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Alan Lackey, 

davidtoc, 

Jeff Budz, 

Jim, 

Jordan Mong, 

Justus True Waldron, 

Ken, 

Marty Jacobson, 

Michael Bridges, 

Nick Gellie, 

Rob Fowler, 

Tim2723, 

Tobin, 

TonyP

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## shawnbrock

Guess its time for you to listen to bluegrass.  Just as important as the lead playing as the ability to give a good-solid rhythm...  As a rhythm instrument, the mandolin takes the place of the snare drum in bluegrass.  Not hard to find or hear...

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## Tom Coletti

> The mandolin, to me, seemed much more primarily a bluegrass instrument, and never thought about it being used in many other genres of music outside of folk and various country. The mandolin in bluegrass is melody, mainly. Fast picking just like a banjo, tough to miss.


Quite the contrary: in the early 1920s, Lloyd Loar originally created the F5 mandolin for classical music. Traveling mandolin orchestras were very popular in the 'teens and 'twenties, and the F5 "Loar" was intended to give more focus, clarity, and projection over the F4, which had an oval hole and short neck rather than the f holes and 15th fret neck joint of an F5.

However, mandolin orchestras began to die off and the mandolin was more commonly used in old-time and Irish Trad, occasionally blues, then bluegrass in the post-WWII era. The mandolin in Trad Bluegrass is often associated with rhythm, being used for percussive "chop" chords on the offbeat, essentially filling the role of a snare, and even melody breaks tend to have a very percussive sound that cuts through the mix. The mandolin has and is also occasionally prominent in jazz, and it can be somewhat common in folk or country, though usually in a reserved role of rhythm strumming while other instruments or vocals take the lead.

The playing of melodies and distinction of tone can vary immensely in bluegrass depending on style, subgenre, and interpretation. Sam Bush, Bill Monroe, David Grisman, and Chris Thile all have a very different and distinctive sound, using different licks, right hand technique, etc., etc.

--Tom

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CHASAX, 

Eric Michael Pfeiffer, 

Jordan Mong, 

Terry Allan Hall

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## Jordan Mong

I was speaking from an ignorant state of mind I had when I first started getting into it. However, I had no idea the Irish Trad and other genres were being played first after the classical music. Interesting.

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ptritz

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## vegas

> The mandolin, to me, seemed much more primarily a bluegrass instrument, and never thought about it being used in many other genres of music outside of folk and various country. The mandolin in bluegrass is melody, mainly. Fast picking just like a banjo, tough to miss.


The mandolin dates back several centuries before bluegrass. Even several centuries before there was a place called, "The United States of America." Most mandolin playing in contemporary American music is in bluegrass, but its origins go much further back in history.

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## mrmando

I think one doesn't really see mandolin being used in Irish trad until the 1960s.

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## vegas

> I think one doesn't really see mandolin being used in Irish trad until the 1960s.


"Irish traditional" has really changed over the decades. Where did it start? Originally with the tin whistle, fiddle and uilleann pipe? Then guitar, then banjo and mandolin were added? The original tunes largely remain the same but as the music traveled "over the water" and back again, all sorts of interesting and quite welcome improvements were added.

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## JeffD

Well regardless. The overwhelming majority of mandolin players in the world today do not play bluegrass, and the mandolin has seen various levels of popularity much higher per capita than today, long before bluegrass was invented. Dem is da facts.

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## mrmando

> "Irish traditional" has really changed over the decades. Where did it start? Originally with the tin whistle, fiddle and uilleann pipe?


No, none of those are original ITM instruments. ITM started with the harp. The pipes don't show up until the late 1700s, and the fiddle and tin whistle make their entrances in the mid-1800s. Certainly there were whistles/flutes in use in Irish music before then, but not specifically tin ones.

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## almeriastrings

> No, none of those are original ITM instruments. ITM started with the harp. The pipes don't show up until the late 1700s, and the fiddle and tin whistle make their entrances in the mid-1800s. Certainly there were whistles/flutes in use in Irish music before then, but not specifically tin ones.


Exactly. I once wandered into an Irish 'session' with an F5. I was told "You can't play that here!" - this from a bunch of folks with "Irish" bouzoukis  :Laughing: , dreadnought sized guitars and Fylde flat-top mandolin  :Laughing:  

Very, very funny indeed.

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## Dave Hanson

Jordan Mong must have lived a sheltered life if he thinks the mandolin is primarily a bluegrass instrument, he should try listening to Mike Marshall, Caterina Lichtenburg, Chris Thile, Simon Mayor and David Grisman to name a few, to find out what can be played on this beautiful instrument.

Dave H

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## mrmando

> Exactly. I once wandered into an Irish 'session' with an F5. I was told "You can't play that here!" - this from a bunch of folks with "Irish" bouzoukis , dreadnought sized guitars and Fylde flat-top mandolin


I don't know about all the sessions in Seattle, but at least the folks at Murphy's on Monday nights are fairly tolerant of unusual instruments. One chap shows up there pretty regularly with a Puerto Rican cuatro.

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NoNickel

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## JeffD

> Jordan Mong must have lived a sheltered life if he thinks the mandolin is primarily a bluegrass instrument,...


I think Jordan is referring to how he saw things in the beginning of his mandolin journey.

Our world is pretty esoteric, as I keep finding out from new friends who almost always say "a what? you play a what?"

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Jordan Mong

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## Timbofood

We can have mandolin music without bluegrass but, can't really have bluegrass music without Bill Monroe using the mandolin to drive it.

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chuck3

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## JEStanek

Bill is dead but Bluegrass goes on.  

I think of mandolin in Bluegrass as a melody, a lead, a supplier of percussion (through the chop) along with the bass to drive the music.  Understand, I don't have a very orthodox view on Bluegrass and am not locked into a strict interpretation of what constitutes a Bluegrass band or instrument line up.  The IBMA attempted to define what constitutes a Bluegrass band and was met with a lot of discussion a few years back.  Here is the IBMA version of the History of Bluegrass.

Jamie

Jamie

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## AlanN

Uh oh.

Where is that dang blue chip thread?

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## allenhopkins

The reason there is bluegrass music, is Bill Monroe; it takes its name from Monroe's band, the Blue Grass Boys.  (Always made me wonder what the music would be called if he'd named his band the Rosine Rhythm Hounds, or some such…)

Monroe played the mandolin, so _ipso facto_ the mandolin became integrally featured in bluegrass music.  Monroe's obsession with "time" (rhythm/beat) led him to use his mandolin as a metronomic off-beat-playing closed/damped-chord rhythm component of the band, when he wasn't soloing.  Hence the "chop" so characteristic of bluegrass mandolin.

While Jeff D may be right that worldwide, most mandolin players don't play bluegrass, _in the US_ the focus of mandolin playing is bluegrass or bluegrass-related.  The mandolins sold here are to a large extent clones of Monroe's Gibson F-5, or are related in some way.  Gibson mandolins have become the template for mandolins in America, largely due to their historical association with bluegrass; while it's been correctly pointed out that their original design was not to play "hillbilly" acoustic country music, over the years their use in that realm, has become paradigmatic for both the Gibson company, and the many other firms and individuals who made "Gibson-like" mandolins.

A musician could get interested in mandolin, and use it for many non-bluegrass styles, never getting "into" bluegrass at all.  I'd venture to say that the great majority of US mandolin players have had some exposure to the genre, however.

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DataNick, 

JEStanek, 

Jim Ferguson, 

Nick Gellie, 

Timbofood

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## Jordan Mong

> Jordan Mong must have lived a sheltered life if he thinks the mandolin is primarily a bluegrass instrument, he should try listening to Mike Marshall, Caterina Lichtenburg, Chris Thile, Simon Mayor and David Grisman to name a few, to find out what can be played on this beautiful instrument.
> 
> Dave H


I was talking about what I knew getting into mandolin. I have always either seen it in bluegrass or folk, more so bluegrass, once entering. And down here in Charleston, where the music scene is solely radio pop, you don't see many mandolin players. As someone's signature pointed out, it would be mistaken for a ukulele immediately, and try to bought up for $20.

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## bjewell

> Jordan Mong must have lived a sheltered life if he thinks the mandolin is primarily a bluegrass instrument, he should try listening to Mike Marshall, Caterina Lichtenburg, Chris Thile, Simon Mayor and David Grisman to name a few, to find out what can be played on this beautiful instrument.
> 
> Dave H


And more than a few of the names above got their start in bluegrass.  If you can play bluegrass you can play anything.  It is the furnace that hardens the steel of an accomplished musician.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Uh oh.
> 
> Where is that dang blue chip thread?


That ain't no part o nuthin'.

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## brunello97

> If you can play bluegrass you can play anything.  It is the furnace that hardens the steel of an accomplished musician.


This is a load of caca de vaca, of course. I don't buy it for a second, but, man, I love the way you put it.

Mick

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Tom Coletti

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## EdHanrahan

> Jordan Mong must have lived a sheltered life if he thinks ...


Oh, come on!  Jordan's only sin is having lived a fairly _short_ life, thus far.

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## M.Marmot

> and more than a few of the names above got their start in bluegrass.  If you can play bluegrass you can play anything.  It is the furnace that hardens the steel of an accomplished musician.



blue steel!

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## bjewell

Originally Posted by bjewell  
If you can play bluegrass you can play anything. It is the furnace that hardens the steel of an accomplished musician.

Mick replied:  "This is a load of caca de vaca, of course. I don't buy it for a second, but, man, I love the way you put it..."

Mick You're kidding, right? To even get into the ground floor of a decent Bluegrass band, you must be able to sing one part of a four-part harmony, play rhythm and lead at blistering speeds while singing the aforementioned harmony singing.  Playing C&W -- which I did for a living on the pedal steel (you're welcome to have a go at it), and stringbender Telecaster is a walk in the park compared to playing "Rawhide" at speed or singing "Angel Band" in perfect harmony. R&R is a snap, R&B a bit more trouble.  

Or maybe you think Tony Rice, the McCoury family and a few others are duffers.  In that case, please post some of your own work on youtube.  I'm all ears!  ;- )

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## Capt. E

First Bluegrass, then Rock/Pop, then Bach...ask Chris Thile

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## Gerry Hastie

> According to my wife, it is also responsible for that tedious but signature "deedle-deedle" noise, along with a fair bit of "plinky-plinky".


I didn't know you were married to my wife!

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## bjewell

That plinky-plinky stuff can get you in trouble...

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## bjewell

You need to give that number-one reed block pull on the Le Capitaine some little blue pills Captain...

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## brunello97

> Originally Posted by bjewell  
> If you can play bluegrass you can play anything. It is the furnace that hardens the steel of an accomplished musician.
> 
> Mick replied:  "This is a load of caca de vaca, of course. I don't buy it for a second, but, man, I love the way you put it..."
> 
> Mick You're kidding, right? To even get into the ground floor of a decent Bluegrass band, you must be able to sing one part of a four-part harmony, play rhythm and lead at blistering speeds while singing the aforementioned harmony singing.  Playing C&W -- which I did for a living on the pedal steel (you're welcome to have a go at it), and stringbender Telecaster is a walk in the park compared to playing "Rawhide" at speed or singing "Angel Band" in perfect harmony. R&R is a snap, R&B a bit more trouble.  
> 
> Or maybe you think Tony Rice, the McCoury family and a few others are duffers.  In that case, please post some of your own work on youtube.  I'm all ears!  ;- )


Whoa big fella, whoa.

I love Tony Rice, and Ronnie McCoury. They are great musicians and I listen to them often.  What would make you think from anything that I wrote that I thought lesser of them?  My concern with the post was "if you can play bluegrass, you can play anything."  Basta cosi.  Simply not so. The post at hand said: "If _you_ can play bluegrass...."  Not if David Grisman can play bluegrass, or Mr. McCoury or Sam Bush or whatever.  "If _you_ can play bluegrass."  That was the comment I was commenting on.  Nothing more, nothing less.  If that chaps your behind, find some salve for it.

If you can play bluegrass you can play anything: Maybe you can, but maybe you can't.  Can you read music?  Can you play Bach like Mr. Thile? (You going to learn that by ear?) Maybe you can.  But maybe you can't.  There is nothing inherent in Mr. Thile's skill at playing bluegrass that suggests he can rock Bach. It has far more to do with his dedication as a musician. How many mandolin players who play Bach can play bluegrass?  Is bluegrass "harder"? Come on.  Why even go there? Nothing in my post suggests any thoughts on the relative merits of different musical types. I've certainly played a share of bluegrass.  I'm certainly no McCoury. I certainly can't play anything.

You can play bluegrass and be an excellent, top notch musician.  You can play classical (or swing, or Italian, or French, or Mandopolis) and be an excellent, top notch musician.  Again nothing inherent about an obvious cross over between any of them.  Each has there own challenges, opportunities, demands, nuances and beauties. Those (few) who can do it are even more exceptional musicians. 

Turn down the aggressive defense of your territory.  It's misplaced and unnecessary here. It's not about me, hombre, and certainly not about you.  My You Tube videos (or your string bending) is irrelevant to the point at hand.  If you feel the need to get your knickers twisted up about it, find someone else to fight with.

Mick

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Christine Robins, 

jmp, 

mandolirius, 

Michael Wolf, 

Nick Gellie

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## Austin Koerner

It sounds like a banjo right?

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## Jordan Mong

> It sounds like a banjo right?


No, it sounds like deedle-deedle-plinky-plinky, if I'm not mistaking.

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padawan

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## MSalisbury

> No, it sounds like deedle-deedle-plinky-plinky, if I'm not mistaking.


(SNORT!!)  Coffee-spew on the tablet - thanks a lot!  LOL!

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Jordan Mong

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## Jim Ferguson

No mando in old time music which I always look upon as a cousin to blue grass music.........I guess the old time came 1st & then Monroe & the blue grass style branched off of that genre.
Peace,

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## Bill Snyder

One of the earliest threads I started when I joined was because a poster for a local bluegrass event had depictions of or mentioned upright bass, guitar, banjo, fiddle and dobro but no mandolin. I inquired here about the lack of a mandolin in bluegrass and was quickly informed by several people that a mandolin is not absolutely necessary like the banjo and guitar are. Puzzled me a bit but I learned something. 
Here is the thread if you are interested in people's responses.

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## ralph johansson

> And more than a few of the names above got their start in bluegrass.  If you can play bluegrass you can play anything.  It is the furnace that hardens the steel of an accomplished musician.


Who exactly?

Grisman's first instrument was the piano, and his first gig was with the Even Dozen Jug Band. Mike Marshall's first national exposure was with the DGQ; his first album covered a lot of ground, Monk, Beatles, Ravel, som Dawg-like stuff and 2 or 3 Bluegrass type numbers. So Thile is "more than a few"?

Are you really suggesting that anyone who has mastered Bluegrass is automatically capable of handling any type of music without special training? ???????????????????????????

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## ralph johansson

> Originally Posted by bjewell  
> If you can play bluegrass you can play anything. It is the furnace that hardens the steel of an accomplished musician.
> 
> Mick replied:  "This is a load of caca de vaca, of course. I don't buy it for a second, but, man, I love the way you put it..."
> 
> Mick You're kidding, right? To even get into the ground floor of a decent Bluegrass band, you must be able to sing one part of a four-part harmony, play rhythm and lead at blistering speeds while singing the aforementioned harmony singing.  Playing C&W -- which I did for a living on the pedal steel (you're welcome to have a go at it), and stringbender Telecaster is a walk in the park compared to playing "Rawhide" at speed or singing "Angel Band" in perfect harmony. R&R is a snap, R&B a bit more trouble.  
> 
> Or maybe you think Tony Rice, the McCoury family and a few others are duffers.  In that case, please post some of your own work on youtube.  I'm all ears!  ;- )


What you are saying is only that it takes certain skills to play Bluegrass. But that doesn't  mean that those skills transfer to other types of music. And the least important skill is speed. Any idiot can learn to play fast, although many players really stiffen on these ridiculously fast 160 bpm  tunes (assuming 2/2 time here). BG experience is really  no help at all in, e.g., jazz.

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## ralph johansson

> Guess its time for you to listen to bluegrass.  Just as important as the lead playing as the ability to give a good-solid rhythm...  As a rhythm instrument, the mandolin takes the place of the snare drum in bluegrass.  Not hard to find or hear...


And in what sense does the mandolin "take the place" of the snare in BG? I'm not aware that there were any drums at all in old-time string band music or any other type of country music in 1946.

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## bjewell

There's no snare in bluegrass Ralph because the mandolin player is playing the snare beat.  And Mick, there's no aggression in any of my posts, don't know why you have to go there.  We can agree to disagree.

What I am saying is this:  To play Bluegrass on the dobro, banjo, mandolin, violin and guitar as well as sing complex harmonies, you need to really practice and practice hard by yourself and with your bandmates.  By playing I meant the physical skill of hand to instrument.  

Of course there are different requirements for different areas of musical expression.  You need to have a good understanding of theory to play jazz but trust me, you need a big dose of theory to play a pedal steel guitar in C&W.  I never said Bluegrass was the only way to be a good player; playing Tsinti music aka the Rosenberg Trio take extreme velocity as well as deep understanding of theory.  There are many roads to proficiency.  I played Samisen while living in Tokyo for 20 years and what looks easy - three strings and a dead cat -- is most difficult if you are starting at 50.

FWIW, I'm not a Bluegrass player although I like the old-style version.  But I have great respect for the practitioners of this craft.  I'm 68 and have played for a living in all sorts of bands for a big part of my life.  Mandolin is new for me.  I bought one because I can pack it on the Harley when I go for an extended ride.  Don't know if I have the personal skill set to play the instrument but I enjoy fooling with it.  I also like playing Creole-style accordion like my good friend Ed Poullard because it's fun.  I have a bunch of pretty cool 19th Century fiddles from France and America that I use to scare my cats although I consider that as practicing. -L-  I love to play music.  Hope you do too; what else is there to do in this world if you were born to pick?

Peace and out...

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## TheArimathean

> And in what sense does the mandolin "take the place" of the snare in BG? I'm not aware that there were any drums at all in old-time string band music or any other type of country music in 1946.


With a drum-kit the snare drum hits the off beat: In a bluegrass band the mandolin hits the off beat.

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## Timbofood

The rest of my family refer to BG music as "Yuck tucka tucka" which grits my hominy!
My family had an edict from my late father(army band director during WWII) that we must all take a two year hitch playing an instrument. My late brother used voice which was wonderful, my eldest sister tried violin, she was excused after six months, eldest brother, French horn, other brother, saxophone, other sister, clarinet. We were brought up with classical music, jazz, anything but c&w, or any derivation. All sibs turned to jazz and r&r.  I was the one bitten by the acoustic bug in Jr. high school, guitar, then banjo,finally saved by the mandolin!  There is such a learning curve in any form af music the concept that if you can play one  form, you can simply play another I just do not buy.  
There are some out there with the musical aplomb to play many different styles but, I must say they are the exception.  There is so much music to be played, it is something to share and enjoy!  Most of my family does not quite understand how much personal satisfaction I get from playing, I have had such a good time playing with "My Boys" it goes beyond words. I have played with some of the country guys here and a Tejano band too, all for fun and the fun is in the playing and learning more, and more about how the skill set from BG will relate to other styles, sometimes it works better than others. C'est la Vie!

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## TheBlindBard

deedle-deedle-plinky-plinky...
I like this description of the sound :P
The name of bluegrass should be changed.

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Jordan Mong

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## ralph johansson

> With a drum-kit the snare drum hits the off beat: In a bluegrass band the mandolin hits the off beat.


That's a highly dubious generalization - that's certainly not the way the snare is used by every player in every genre.  E.g., a bebop drummer like  Max Roach or Ed Thigpen would use the snare for irregular accents and figures, let the ride cymbal carry the basic ching-ding-a-ding-ding and the hi-hat handle the 2 and 4 accents.  The 2 and 4 snare accents is more common in big band jazz and in, e.g., Jimmy Smith's organ trios - along with rolls and fills all over the drum set, but that's a lot different from the use of the mandolin, as it is embedded in a 4/4 context, whereas the mandolin chop actually strengthens the basic 2/2 feel of most Bluegrass. I for one would like hear far less of it; on medium and medium up tunes I much refer a fourish shuffle beat, for instance, and here is much else you can do. Simply forget about all drum analogies (who then  assumes the role of the toms, the cymbals, the hi-hat and bass drum?), listen to the bass and guitar
and find something that fits in on top of them and behind the solist The mandolin is actually the most dispensible instrument in BG, a luxury item. If handled with imagination it can really spice things up. It is certainly not the backbone of BG rhythm.

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Mike Bunting

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## ralph johansson

> There's no snare in bluegrass Ralph because the mandolin player is playing the snare beat.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peace and out...


"Because"???? In no sense is it true that the mandolin chop replaced the snare beat in BG, as there never was a snare or drums in in pre-Bluegrass string band music. And I assure you that Monroe's idea never was to simulate the use of the snare in other types of music. It was the role he created for it, after a while, as you don't hear much of it on the early records. In fact there are several examples of him twinning with the fiddle, or playing long tremoloes behind the banjo or fiddle. The chop represents a simplification
of the role of the mandolin. And of course, a snare has been used in later styles of BG. It's usually played with brushes, certainly not just on the afterbeat but in whole rhythmic figures across whole bars, e.g., on studio recordings by Flatt & Scruggs. In the late 60's I watched several shows by Jimmy Martin and the Osborne Brothers, with Jimmy's son Ray, and Bobby's son Robbie on snare, played much the same way as on the F&S records, although with less variation.  Maybe it was just a practical  arrangement for Jimmy and Bobby to spend some time with their sons during the festival season. 

On their latest album the Steep Canyon Rangers are using a really creative drummer, Jeff Sipe; I haven't heard enough to determine how well he fits in the context.

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Mike Bunting

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## allenhopkins

Monroe considered "time" or rhythm one of the main characteristics of his style; one of his frequent comments on other musicians, in the Blue Grass Boys or not, was "he has good time."

Working as he did with a variety of sidemen, some picked up for a single short-notice performance, Monroe began enforcing "time" by using damped, closed-chorded mandolin in a metronomic off-beat -- the "chop."  Not _all_ he did, not in every instance on every song. but pervasively enough, that "chopping" became a dominant style of mandolin rhythm playing in bluegrass.  As it is still.

The "chop" sound has been likened to the "chick" sound in "boom-chick" bass-snare drum rhythm, hence the comparison.  If there's documentation that Monroe explicitly said he was _copying_ the snare drum, I'm not aware of it.  And of course he didn't "replace the (non-existent) snare drum in string band music," and no one thinks he did.  Monroe listened to many styles of music, and incorporated influences, so he may have liked the "2 & 4" snare drum sound, thought it played well off the bass -- dunno.

Banjo players also often "comp" on the off-beat, when trading back-up figures with other instruments.  Fiddlers may do short off-beat double-stops.  A more treble-oriented "2 & 4" working off bass and guitar down-beats is not just the mandolin's role.

Arguing about whether mandolin "chops" are _explicitly patterned_ after common snare drum figures, or just sound similar (which they do), seems like, well, "dancing about architecture," in mandroid's felicitous phrase.

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DataNick, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

TheArimathean

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## AlanN

This is good, very good.

I've heard that argument that "If you can play bluegrass, you can play anything". Never did buy that myself.

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## FLATROCK HILL

> It (the mandolin) is certainly not the backbone of BG rhythm.


We're all entitled to our opinions. In this instance, my opinion is completely opposite yours.

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## bjewell

Wow... I don't know what else to say.  Seems to be two or three parallel conversations going here.  Not gonna count angels on the head of this particular pin.  But.. what I said -- obviously imperfectly -- was that if you can p-l-a-y Bluegrass you can play anything.  Technique and genre are two different things.  The chops necessary to play at speed  -- even to play rhythm guitar -- in a good Bluegrass band takes a lot of chops.  Has everything to do with the mechanics of pick to fingered strings.  

To kvetch over whether or not a mandolin chop replace an actual snare drum is to parse words.  The other gentleman and myself should have phrased it as down beat.  Whether you have a drum, a musical instrument or the clapping of hands, whatever.

The mandolin is actually the most dispensable instrument in BG, a luxury item. If handled with imagination it can really spice things up. It is certainly not the backbone of BG rhythm  

is probably the most curious thing Ive ever read about Bluegrass.  This is a kind and gentle board I believe so Ill just leave it at that.  I will say this, based on listening to Bluegrass since 1961, attending I dont know how many BG concerts, shows, picking sessions, parking lot get togethers is that the mandolin is the essential rhythm instrument in a Bluegrass band.  Any luxury item as you describe would be a Dobro.  Mr. Monroe played the mandolin.  He invented the genre called Bluegrass.  He laid down the rules for rhythm.  How anyone can listen to even one cut of Bluegrass and not hear that the mandolin holds the time together is beyond me.  The so-called rhythm guitar  usually a Martin Dreadnaught  lays down the 1/3 with a brush of the treble strings for the 2/4 or in cut time the 2, but the mandolin is much louder that the acoustic guitar and it is in fact what you hear.

I would highly doubt that Mr. Grisman would cite his piano lessons or playing in a jug band as the basis for the hand/eye coordination necessary to play the mandolin at Bluegrass velocity.  Ill give you an example although Mr. Johansson, living in Europe, perhaps you might not have seen this show:  Marty Stuart plays with his band the Fabulous Superlatives on The Marty Stuart Show,  a terrific half-hour on RFD television most Saturday afternoons.  They can play anything from the Staple Singers to R&R, R&B, hard C&W, Texas Swing, reggae, swamp rock perfectly.  They are a killer-diller group.  Marty plays brilliant stringbending on Clarences old Tele and smokes it on his old D-45.  But he has told my friend Gene Parsons who built Clarences 54 Tele that he doesnt consider himself a guitar player but a mandolin player.  And if you watch his technique you will agree.  Marty can lay pipe on a mandolin and thats no lie.  He got that technique, his incredible clarity and power from playing in some of the biggest-named BG bands in the business starting when he was a kid.

We can all disagree and be civil, even downright friendly.  I have no axe to grind, its all good  back to work.  Peace and out.

----------

DataNick, 

doc holiday, 

Mike Bunting, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

sgarrity, 

Timbofood

----------


## Timbofood

Speaking of "superlative"side of this interesting music,I seem to remember hearing that the D-45 that Marty plays was Lester's which was actually a D-28 that Mike Longworth converted and the inlay "L-5" was reference that it was Longworth's fifth inlay conversion.  Can anyone confirm or refute that?  Don't remember when or where I heard it.

----------


## ralph johansson

> Monroe considered "time" or rhythm one of the main characteristics of his style; one of his frequent comments on other musicians, in the Blue Grass Boys or not, was "he has good time."
> 
> Working as he did with a variety of sidemen, some picked up for a single short-notice performance, Monroe began enforcing "time" by using damped, closed-chorded mandolin in a metronomic off-beat -- the "chop."  Not _all_ he did, not in every instance on every song. but pervasively enough, that "chopping" became a dominant style of mandolin rhythm playing in bluegrass.  As it is still.
> 
> The "chop" sound has been likened to the "chick" sound in "boom-chick" bass-snare drum rhythm, hence the comparison.  If there's documentation that Monroe explicitly said he was _copying_ the snare drum, I'm not aware of it.  And of course he didn't "replace the (non-existent) snare drum in string band music," and no one thinks he did.  Monroe listened to many styles of music, and incorporated influences, so he may have liked the "2 & 4" snare drum sound, thought it played well off the bass -- dunno.
> 
> Banjo players also often "comp" on the off-beat, when trading back-up figures with other instruments.  Fiddlers may do short off-beat double-stops.  A more treble-oriented "2 & 4" working off bass and guitar down-beats is not just the mandolin's role.
> 
> Arguing about whether mandolin "chops" are _explicitly patterned_ after common snare drum figures, or just sound similar (which they do), seems like, well, "dancing about architecture," in mandroid's felicitous phrase.


The back-up role of the mandolin varies, as does the role of the fiddle and banjo. For all three there's the most rudimentary rhtymic role represented by the scractch on the fiddle, the snap of the banjo and the chop of the mandolin; at the next level there's long notes, rolls or tremoloes (or more elaborate rhtymic figures), respectively, and at the highest level counter-melodies and fills. I don't like the way some people think of the mandolin as a two-state automaton, solo or chop, nothing in-between. With a good rhythm guitarist there's certainly no need to reduce the role of the mandolin.

 As I said before the chop confirms the 2/2 groove predominant in Bluegrass. I don't know when exactly Monroe settled on that but it's constructive to compare the two recordings of Georgia Rose, in C and B respectively. On the 1950 recording Joel Price keeps a steady 4/4, on the 1954 you have Ernie Newton's 2/2, with his brush and pad  on the afterbeat. I don't have the latter anymore but on Youtube there's an Opry clip with Monroe playing
it in B with Newton on bass and with  his typical chop. But on many of the numbers with Edd Mayfield or Jimmy Martin, at least not the very fast ones (which we don't need anyway), you can hear him tremoloing behind the fiddle or banjo and the music certainly does not fall apart rhythmically.

----------

Christine Robins, 

Mike Bunting

----------


## ralph johansson

> Speaking of "superlative"side of this interesting music,I seem to remember hearing that the D-45 that Marty plays was Lester's which was actually a D-28 that Mike Longworth converted and the inlay "L-5" was reference that it was Longworth's fifth inlay conversion.  Can anyone confirm or refute that?  Don't remember when or where I heard it.


According to most accounts it's a genuine D45, which he got from Johnny Cash.

----------


## ralph johansson

> Wow... I don't know what else to say.  Seems to be two or three parallel conversations going here.  Not gonna count angels on the head of this particular pin.  But.. what I said -- obviously imperfectly -- was that if you can p-l-a-y Bluegrass you can play anything.  Technique and genre are two different things.  The chops necessary to play at speed  -- even to play rhythm guitar -- in a good Bluegrass band takes a lot of chops.  Has everything to do with the mechanics of pick to fingered strings.  
> 
> To kvetch over whether or not a mandolin chop replace an actual snare drum is to parse words.  The other gentleman and myself should have phrased it as down beat.  Whether you have a drum, a musical instrument or the clapping of hands, whatever.
> 
> The mandolin is actually the most dispensable instrument in BG, a luxury item. If handled with imagination it can really spice things up. It is certainly not the backbone of BG rhythm  
> 
> is probably the most curious thing Ive ever read about Bluegrass.  This is a kind and gentle board I believe so Ill just leave it at that.  I will say this, based on listening to Bluegrass since 1961, attending I dont know how many BG concerts, shows, picking sessions, parking lot get togethers is that the mandolin is the essential rhythm instrument in a Bluegrass band.  Any luxury item as you describe would be a Dobro.  Mr. Monroe played the mandolin.  He invented the genre called Bluegrass.  He laid down the rules for rhythm.  How anyone can listen to even one cut of Bluegrass and not hear that the mandolin holds the time together is beyond me.  The so-called rhythm guitar  usually a Martin Dreadnaught  lays down the 1/3 with a brush of the treble strings for the 2/4 or in cut time the 2, but the mandolin is much louder that the acoustic guitar and it is in fact what you hear.
> 
> I would highly doubt that Mr. Grisman would cite his piano lessons or playing in a jug band as the basis for the hand/eye coordination necessary to play the mandolin at Bluegrass velocity.  Ill give you an example although Mr. Johansson, living in Europe, perhaps you might not have seen this show:  Marty Stuart plays with his band the Fabulous Superlatives on The Marty Stuart Show,  a terrific half-hour on RFD television most Saturday afternoons.  They can play anything from the Staple Singers to R&R, R&B, hard C&W, Texas Swing, reggae, swamp rock perfectly.  They are a killer-diller group.  Marty plays brilliant stringbending on Clarences old Tele and smokes it on his old D-45.  But he has told my friend Gene Parsons who built Clarences 54 Tele that he doesnt consider himself a guitar player but a mandolin player.  And if you watch his technique you will agree.  Marty can lay pipe on a mandolin and thats no lie.  He got that technique, his incredible clarity and power from playing in some of the biggest-named BG bands in the business starting when he was a kid.
> ...


I suggest you listen to soem oif the early Decca numbers with Jimmy Martin or Edd Mayfield oin guitar.

As for Grisman my point was he did not really *get his start* in Bluegrass. 

And of course, Bill Monroe did not *invent* Bluegrass, and his ideas of rhtyhm, and the role of the mandolin changed quite a bit over the
years.

----------


## AlanN

All I can add is that the mandolin (and its chop) has, in the past generation or 2, *become* a vital ingredient in the bluegrass mix. If it's not there, the band is seen to be lacking somewhat. Good or bad, your call.

----------


## Timbofood

Ok, I am mistaken about Marty's guitar. So what's the story with the "L-5" inlay on Lester's guitar?  Inquiring minds want to know.

----------


## Kieran

> Hello, all,
> A few days ago we went to go buy some plants for our backyard and wound up buying this cool-looking grass that was a blueish-grey in color.
> I laughed and made a joke about *bluegrass*. Then started wondering: How is the mandolin used in bluegrass? I don't listen to it much but really love the name and would like to listen to it more, but not sure where to start. I know in* ITM* the mandolin is mainly used for melody, but know little to nothing about bluegrass.
> thanks


Mix the two and this could give you greengrass  :Grin: 

http://www.moloneymusic.com

----------

Tommcgtx

----------


## bjewell

That D-45 doesn't have L-5 on it, that's an old 28 Lester played.  As the gentleman said above, I believe Marty got that guitar from Johnny, probably to make up for Cash scratching up Marty's mandolin.  And Mr. Johansson, if Bill didn't invent Bluegrass, then who did?

----------


## Timbofood

Thanks bjewell,
That seems to clear some dust from my mental attic, the L-5 inlay on Lester's 28 does have a connection to Mike Longworth though does it not?  I know I read that somewhere!
Seems reasonable of Cash to do something nice after the name carving in the mandolin.
And yes, if Bill did not invent bluegrass, who did?  
Seems like a lot of tangents on this thread or am I mistaken on that one too?
Where did I put my coffee?

----------


## allenhopkins

> Speaking of "superlative"side of this interesting music,I seem to remember hearing that the D-45 that Marty plays was Lester's which was actually a D-28 that Mike Longworth converted and the inlay "L-5" was reference that it was Longworth's fifth inlay conversion.  Can anyone confirm or refute that?  Don't remember when or where I heard it.


True; *reference.*

----------

Timbofood

----------


## bjewell

Thanks Allen.  Jim Grainger and Mike were converting 28s to 45s back in the day and Martin located Mr. Longworth and hired him.  Jim still has a terrific repair shop -- Custom Fretted Instruments -- in Sparta TN.  He has done all of my work for many years.  I sent more than a few guitars his way from Tokyo.

The "L-5" guitar is in the Country Music Hall of Fame in a glass case.  It's a D-28 and it's not the D-45 Marty plays.

http://www.premierguitar.com/article...ame_and_Museum

Here's the story on Marty's guitar from the gentleman who sold it to him:

Tut Taylor posted this note a few weeks back on Flatpick-L about Marty's D-45: 

"Here is the story about Marty's D45. I've posted this umpteen times. I traded a banjo for the guitar in the late 60's or very early 70's. I sold it to Hank Williams, Jr. who, along with Johnny Cash, were both avid gun collectors. He traded it to Cash for guns. Later when Marty was a member of the Cash family he acquired it. There was a hole in the top that had been repaired with a spruce patch with the grain running the opposite direction. Cash brought it by GTR (George-Tut-Randy - the original name of what is now Gruhn Guitars) and Randy Wood removed the spruce patch and put in a pearl ( or abalone ) patch. That's my story and I'm sticking to it for it is truth." 

Tutbro

----------


## Timbofood

Thanks Alan, I knew some of what I thought must be true,  albeit somewhat scattered.  I had thought that the conversion was the story behind the L-5. My mind is not quite as full of mush as I had thought.  I somehow thought that Marty's was Lester's not Cash's.  Now, I can file the correct information and clean more mental space for more valuable trivia!
I love this site!!

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## DataNick

> And of course, Bill Monroe did not *invent* Bluegrass...


Politely speaking, there's a lot of well informed musicologists who would disagree with you.

Mr. Monroe is credited with combining elements of old-time, fiddle music, country blues, mountain gospel, and jazz into a completely new and uniquely American musical genre/idiom that is identified as "Bluegrass".

I didn't know that was even debate fodder...

----------

Jordan Mong

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> Politely speaking, there's a lot of well informed musicologists who would disagree with you.
> 
> Mr. Monroe is credited with combining elements of old-time, fiddle music, country blues, mountain gospel, and jazz into a completely new and uniquely American musical genre/idiom that is identified as "Bluegrass".
> 
> I didn't know that was even debate fodder...


C'mon now Nick...We're on a mandolin forum debating whether or not the mandolin keeps rhythm in a Bluegrass band. Next it will be the whereabouts of a bear's defecation.

----------

DataNick

----------


## sgarrity

That's what is so great about the internet.......you can find someone that will argue the sky is green and the grass is blue!  Hey wait, that could be a song........ :Grin:

----------

DataNick

----------


## bjewell

> C'mon now Nick...We're on a mandolin forum debating whether or not the mandolin keeps rhythm in a Bluegrass band. Next it will be the whereabouts of a bear's defecation.


-LLL-  This has been a lot of fun ya know?  Hey are you going to eat that last squirrel leg or is it mine?

----------


## Tom Coletti

> Next it will be the whereabouts of a bear's defecation.


Bears do not defecate. They convert their solid waste into gamma ray bursts which can then be harnessed to create a real Santa Claus.




--Tom

----------


## M.Marmot

> C'mon now Nick...We're on a mandolin forum debating whether or not the mandolin keeps rhythm in a Bluegrass band. Next it will be the whereabouts of a bear's defecation.


The answer to that will be found just as soon as someone can clear all these trees

----------


## Timbofood

Now y'all just gettin' silly!

----------


## lowtone2

George is more than just an immaculate beard-he also knows something about the essence of bluegrass...

----------


## ralph johansson

> All I can add is that the mandolin (and its chop) has, in the past generation or 2, *become* a vital ingredient in the bluegrass mix. If it's not there, the band is seen to be lacking somewhat. Good or bad, your call.


That may be true, and a bit unfortunate.

----------


## ralph johansson

> That D-45 doesn't have L-5 on it, that's an old 28 Lester played.  As the gentleman said above, I believe Marty got that guitar from Johnny, probably to make up for Cash scratching up Marty's mandolin.  And Mr. Johansson, if Bill didn't invent Bluegrass, then who did?


I reject the idea that any given individual created a specific genre. Monroe organized the first BG band, and  he certainly saw the potential of Chubby Wise's fiddling and Scruggs' banjo style for his group sound, but he certainly did not invent any of these. And in the beginning, at least, it was the banjo that sold the sound. Of course, to me, the fiddle, whenever present, is really the main instrument of Bluegrass, but that is a different argument altogether.

----------


## bjewell

Ralph, no offense, but you haven't a clue about what we are discussing here...

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

Timbofood

----------


## bjewell

I want to add to my post because it sound flippant and I mean no disrespect.  Bill Monroe is the founding figure of Bluegrass.  That is beyond dispute by virtually anyone who has come into contact with the genre over the last 70 years or so.  The mandolins is a core instrument of Bluegrass and no one who is even minimally aware of the so-called sound of the music would dispute that.  Whether it is a waltz, a cut time or 4/4 song or tune, the mandolin plays a vital role in Bluegrass outlining the rhythm by playing the back beat forcefully.  This is beyond dispute.

There are many people from Europe and Great Britain who know a terrific amount about this music and who play it very, very well.  That is also beyond dispute.  But your notions about Bluegrass Ralph are at variance with virtually everyone I know who plays, enjoys, studies or loves Bluegrass music.  It's great that you feel so passionate about your opinions but that doesn't necessarily make them correct.

----------

FLATROCK HILL, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

Timbofood

----------


## DataNick

> I want to add to my post because it sound flippant and I mean no disrespect.  Bill Monroe is the founding figure of Bluegrass.  That is beyond dispute by virtually anyone who has come into contact with the genre over the last 70 years or so.  The mandolins is a core instrument of Bluegrass and no one who is even minimally aware of the so-called sound of the music would dispute that.  Whether it is a waltz, a cut time or 4/4 song or tune, the mandolin plays a vital role in Bluegrass outlining the rhythm by playing the back beat forcefully.  This is beyond dispute.
> 
> There are many people from Europe and Great Britain who know a terrific amount about this music and who play it very, very well.  That is also beyond dispute.  But your notions about Bluegrass Ralph are at variance with virtually everyone I know who plays, enjoys, studies or loves Bluegrass music.  It's great that you feel so passionate about your opinions but that doesn't necessarily make them correct.


+1;

If I desire to be academically honest, at some point I must reconcile my strong passions against the overwhelming body of scholarly work documented on an issue; in this case bluegrass. I can choose to disagree, but to state that the majority academic opinoin with which a great deal of investigative scholarly work has been accumulated in the converse is just wrong, is to then leave the realm of academic discussion and now enter into my opinion versus yours; which ultimately is worthless.

"Opinoins are like armpits; they stink and everyone has a couple"...

Ralph, if you're truly interested, a good starting place is Robert Cantwell's "Bluegrass Breakdown: The Making Of The Old Southern Sound".

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## M.Marmot

Every so often it feels like the Groundhog Cafe around here - the same arguments and debates crop up are refreshed and settle again. Personally, I don't mind it - every time this happens i get some fresh perspectives and read things i overlooked the first time... and sometimes its just plain amusing to see the same arguments hashed out with the same vehemence at times by different parties. 

Its like Knock 'Em-Sock 'em robots with mandolin themes.

I have no horse in this course - though i am enjoying the running so far - i just would like to ask though is it really fair to claim that folks who do not live in the U.S. do not have a valid opinion on Bluegrass? 
Or that their understanding is at best academic?

I can understand such an argument if it was being made about an obscure musical style that had been previously restricted to a few isolated practitioners - but Bluegrass has long been long documented, expanded upon, and found international reception.

If we are to start excluding opinion or statements simply based on geographical background then why not start limiting this jostle to those folks who come from the Eastern United States, or simply Kentucky? 
Why not exclude those folks who don't come from rural areas - bluegrass? Afterall, is it really an urban music?

I'm from Europe, and i'm no expert on Bluegrass, and yes, my first introduction to Bluegrass was from a book - it was a book written by a man from Queens. I have never met this man, but he really seems passionate about Bluegrass and he seems to think, to advocate that a passion for Bluegrass can extend beyond geography, history, and all such borders and limitations. 

And, in short i agree with him.

----------

Markus, 

Nick Gellie

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> I reject the idea that any given individual created a specific genre.


This is a fairly widely held view. It has always seemed to me that when people say someone 'invented' a style of music, it is 'in a manner of speaking.' Sort of like 'Father of BG' is not literally true. Or perhaps someone wants to argue for this as a 'fact'.....

----------


## OldSausage

But, if you really were the first person to do the first thing in a genre, then you really did invent the genre. Fact!

----------

bjewell, 

DataNick, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## bjewell

Mr. Marmot, if you had read my post, I'm sure you saw the following:

"There are many people from Europe and Great Britain who know a terrific amount about this music and who play it very, very well. That is also beyond dispute..."

There are also some great pickers from my second home Japan.  Bluegrass is an international phenomenon.  Having said that, there are some curious notions about the history of the genre held by folks both in the USA and in other parts of he world.  I believe that is where we are in this conversation.  For myself, I mean no disrespect to anyone nor do I see that attitude in any of the above posts.

Kindest regards,

T quinn
aka bjewell

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> That's a highly dubious generalization - that's certainly not the way the snare is used by every player in every genre.  E.g., a bebop drummer like  Max Roach or Ed Thigpen would use the snare for irregular accents and figures, let the ride cymbal carry the basic ching-ding-a-ding-ding and the hi-hat handle the 2 and 4 accents.  The 2 and 4 snare accents is more common in big band jazz and in, e.g., Jimmy Smith's organ trios - along with rolls and fills all over the drum set, but that's a lot different from the use of the mandolin, as it is embedded in a 4/4 context, whereas the mandolin chop actually strengthens the basic 2/2 feel of most Bluegrass. I for one would like hear far less of it; on medium and medium up tunes I much refer a fourish shuffle beat, for instance, and here is much else you can do. Simply forget about all drum analogies (who then  assumes the role of the toms, the cymbals, the hi-hat and bass drum?), listen to the bass and guitar
> and find something that fits in on top of them and behind the solist The mandolin is actually the most dispensible instrument in BG, a luxury item. If handled with imagination it can really spice things up. It is certainly not the backbone of BG rhythm.


Your pontifications notwithstanding I prefer to think that one role of the mandolin in bluegrass is as the "drum" keeping rhythm and I think Monroe thought that too -- and  good case can be made that he knew something about bluegrass.

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> But, if you really were the first person to the first thing in a genre, then you really did invent the genre. Fact!


My point, which the first part of your conditional actually hints at, would be that it is more accurate to say that Bluegrass invented Bill Monroe. When I say that the idea of an individual inventing a genre is problematic, I mean the theory in the philosophy of music that music is not about invention but rather discovery. (Did the first person to play a 4th, a 5th, an octave 'invent' music?) Monroe was the first instantiation of the genre. He was, as you say, already _in_ the genre. In music, as in most things, genera are not 'created', and they are certainly not created by individuals within them. The individuals can only be expressions of them.

----------


## M.Marmot

> Mr. Marmot, if you had read my post, I'm sure you saw the following:
> 
> "There are many people from Europe and Great Britain who know a terrific amount about this music and who play it very, very well. That is also beyond dispute..."
> 
> l


Sorry about that Mr. Quinn, but you are correct i had misread your post - the perils of reading a post over breakfast - thanks for drawing my attention to this.

While i can't withdraw my last post - i can see that it is not at all relevant to the current discussion.

What can i say but - 'Carry on'

and best regards to you too.

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> My point, which the first part of your conditional actually hints at, would be that it is more accurate to say that Bluegrass invented Bill Monroe. When I say that the idea of an individual inventing a genre is problematic, I mean the theory in the philosophy of music that music is not about invention but rather discovery. (Did the first person to play a 4th, a 5th, an octave 'invent' music?) Monroe was the first instantiation of the genre. He was, as you say, already _in_ the genre. In music, as in most things, genera are not 'created', and they are certainly not created by individuals within them. The individuals can only be expressions of them.


To me, your argument sounds flawed. I would agree that some (many) things already exist and have existed long before someone is credited with their discovery. Electricity existed (just as the harmonics to which you eluded) long before its powers were harnessed. That fact in no way detracts from the fact that Edison invented the light bulb.

----------

DataNick

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> To me, your argument sounds flawed. I would agree that some (many) things already exist and have existed long before someone is credited with their discovery. Electricity existed (just as the harmonics to which you eluded) long before its powers were harnessed. That fact in no way detracts from the fact that Edison invented the light bulb.


Fair enough, though it is not my theory. I raised it because someone brought up 'academic ' and 'scholarly ' views against the idea that no one invents genres, which was characterized as an 'opinion'. In any case, bluegrass might be to harmonics as light bulbs to electricity, but according to certain philosophers of music, individual works of music are 'discovered', they are timeless forms, not created by people. Of course more committed platonists would say something similar about the light bulb. But that gets into philosophy of science.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> My point, which the first part of your conditional actually hints at, would be that it is more accurate to say that Bluegrass invented Bill Monroe. When I say that the idea of an individual inventing a genre is problematic, I mean the theory in the philosophy of music that music is not about invention but rather discovery. (Did the first person to play a 4th, a 5th, an octave 'invent' music?) Monroe was the first instantiation of the genre. He was, as you say, already _in_ the genre. In music, as in most things, genera are not 'created', and they are certainly not created by individuals within them. The individuals can only be expressions of them.


But which came first the chicken or the egg?  :Smile:

----------


## bjewell

> Sorry about that Mr. Quinn, but you are correct i had misread your post - the perils of reading a post over breakfast - thanks for drawing my attention to this.
> 
> While i can't withdraw my last post - i can see that it is not at all relevant to the current discussion.
> 
> What can i say but - 'Carry on'
> 
> and best regards to you too.


  Well when I move to France after I retire, I fully expect that you treat to the first glass of plonk and I will reciprocate after a bit.  Then we can debate the merits of F vs, A mandolins... ;- )

----------


## M.Marmot

> Well when I move to France after I retire, I fully expect that you treat to the first glass of plonk and I will reciprocate after a bit.  Then we can debate the merits of F vs, A mandolins... ;- )


Plonk it is, sir! 

As for the merits of the mandolins - they'll surely speak for themselves ;-)

----------


## M.Marmot

> But which came first the chicken or the egg?


Depends, if you be a fan of evolution - then its the egg.

If not - then that certainly is a question for the ages.

----------


## ralph johansson

> We're all entitled to our opinions. In this instance, my opinion is completely opposite yours.


Well, there have been BG groups without mandolin but I don't ever recall hearing a BG group without guitar. Examples. Lonesome Pine Fiddlers, Stanley Brothers (sometimes),
Flatt & Scruggs (sometimes). When Vernon Derrick played with Jimmy Martin he used to alternate between fiddle and mandolin, so at times there was no mandolin. I recall hearing JD Crowe's group in Lexington many years ago; when Bobby Sloane switched from bass to fiddle Doyle Lawson took over on bass, so on at least some numbers there was no mandolin.

I suppose mandolin players like to stress the importance of their role, and guitarists theirs. On Two days in Newport with Monroe the guitar and the mandolin are very clearly audible
and you can really hear how the guitar (Del McCourey puts the bounce into the rhythm; by then, in '63 Monroe was playing a lot more rhythm than in the early days, but it's quite varied. Not just the chop on the afterbeat, sometimes double strokes, a bit of gallop or chugga-chugga. Try to imagine the guitar out of the picture - it would sound pretty empty.

I watched several shows with Monroe in 1969 and on his vocal numbers he sometimes chopped just between lines and sometimes not at all. During a banjo or fiddle solo he tried to whip up a bit of cooking but to little avail as the guitarist (James Monroe) and bass player were pretty weak. Never have I seen the importance of the guitar more clearly illustrated.

----------

Mike Bunting

----------


## ralph johansson

> Politely speaking, there's a lot of well informed musicologists who would disagree with you.
> 
> Mr. Monroe is credited with combining elements of old-time, fiddle music, country blues, mountain gospel, and jazz into a completely new and uniquely American musical genre/idiom that is identified as "Bluegrass".
> 
> I didn't know that was even debate fodder...


So a lot of well informed musicologists agree that Scruggs, Wise, and Flatt didn't contribute at all?

----------


## ralph johansson

> Your pontifications notwithstanding I prefer to think that one role of the mandolin in bluegrass is as the "drum" keeping rhythm and I think Monroe thought that too -- and  good case can be made that he knew something about bluegrass.


I simply don't see how anyone can ignore the role of the guitar.(But, of course, I play the guitar myself).

 Again, I'm remarking on the simplified view that the mandolin either plays solo or chops on the afterbeat. I refer to early recordings of Monroe. E.g., on Little Cabin Home on the Hill he kicks the song off, plays countermelodies to Lester Flatt's vocal solos, and tremoloes behind the fiddle solos. On Sweetheart You Done Me Wrong, there's a lot going on with both the fiddle and mandolin behind the verses. I believe Monroe took to simplifying the role of the mandolin for two reasons. One was that he concentrated more on his singing and did almost all the lead vocals on the verses. 
The other, maybe, to create more room for the fiddle (or multiple fiddles).

----------


## ralph johansson

> Ralph, no offense, but you haven't a clue about what we are discussing here...


I love the way you say "no offense", then go on to insult me. I have given very concrete  examples and arguments to support my view and you don't even bother to refute them. 

I've commented on your use opf the word "invent" in other posts. You also say that Monroe "laid down the rules" for rhythm. What turned BG into a genre, and not just the style of one particular group was that others were inspired by Monroe's concept. But they didn't follow rules, they all added their own ideas. Otherwise the whole thing would have died.

----------

Mike Bunting

----------


## bjewell

Zzzz...

----------


## DataNick

> So a lot of well informed musicologists agree that Scruggs, Wise, and Flatt didn't contribute at all?


Their contributions as paid members of his band, following his explicit instruction (Mr. Monroe had the reputation of being very "in control" of what he wanted) are noteworthy...but they did what they were told and he knew what he wanted in terms of sound.

Chubby Wise states on camera in "Bill Monroe, The Father Of Bluegrass" that Mr. Monroe taught him note by note, phrase by phrase, to be a "Bluegrass" fiddler. He states that in hotel/motel rooms across the country, Mr. Monroe would teach him the nuances of "Bluegrass" fiddling that he wanted Chubby Wise to play. 
(You can watch it on YouTube; it's a fasciniating interview snippet!)

Re: Earl Scruggs and the 3-finger "scruggs roll"..that was a North Carolina banjo picking style that Snuffy Jenkins had popularized. Before Earl Scruggs auditioned for Mr. Monroe, Don Reno (another practitioner of that style) had auditioned and was set to join the Bluegrass Boys when WWII came a callin'. So even in Earl Scruggs "revolutionary" banjo style, Mr. Monroe had already heard it and was "on the lookout" for another practitioner.

Mr. Cantwell's book, that I refer to in a subsequent post, goes over this ground as does Richard Smith in "Can't You Hear Me Callin"...

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

bjewell, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## sgarrity

Monroe started the chop when he got a bunch of new, young guys in the band that needed some help staying in time.

----------

bjewell, 

Mike Bunting

----------


## bjewell

Cue the sound of crickets...

----------


## Rush Burkhardt

Nothing will stop a discussion faster than unforgiving absolutes and rampant semantics!
1. Invented - bluegrass is not the light bulb
2. Didn't invent - bluegrass in not the light bulb
3. Bill Monroe - a man who seized upon a set of musical sounds that spoke, in his mind, for him. He was so committed to that collection of sounds, and the general formation of those sounds that he, mostly by his conviction and will and the force of his personality, carried it on his back until it was accepted by many as his music.
4. Bluegrass, from the earliest days of its naming and performance, has reflected the opinions of Mr. Monroe, and, even today, there are those who are very unbending in their creation and appreciation of the music.
5. The term "bluegrass", much like a family genealogical growth, has been influenced by sub-genres, none of which seem to refute their lineage and the roots of their familial growth.
6. The mandolin and bluegrass  Its true, Mr. Monroe played the mandolin, primarily, during the early years of bluegrasslargely because his brother, Charlie, played the guitar. Its possible that, had Mr. Monroe selected a different instrument to play, wed have a different story to tell! Its not unlikely (ergo likely) that the musical form would have been the same. Its likely thats the way Mr. Monroe heard that amalgm of sounds from his mothers voice, the fiddle of Uncle Pen Vandiver, the guitar heroes of the era, the Scottish reels and the other influences to his musical tastes.
7. As a mandolinist (primarily) for the better part of 50 years now, and a direct influence of the 1st generation bluegrass musicians (all of them; live!) I can tell you that most of this stuff still sounds like Mr. Monroes music to me. From the banjo & bass-less duets of Chris Thile and Michael Davies, to the hard-driving music produced by Alison Krauss without a mandolin (when Dan is playing the guitar), Byrone Berlines fiddle with Alan Mundes banjo, and yes, even to Trampled by Turtles, I hear it!
8. When its absent, I really miss the drive of the banjo. When its absent, I miss the chop of the mandolin. When its absent, I miss the steady mid-range force of the guitar. You get the idea!
9. But most of all, I would miss this music without Bill Monroe! Cause I dont think this amagm of sounds, this formula, would have existed without him! Im thankful that he was bull-headed enough to force us to listen to HIS music!
Amen! :Popcorn:

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

bjewell, 

DataNick, 

David Rambo, 

Markus, 

Nick Gellie, 

pickloser, 

sgarrity, 

Tommcgtx

----------


## sgarrity

Cheers to that my friend!!   :Mandosmiley:

----------

bjewell

----------


## Nick Gellie

Is it not a bit pointless arguing whether Bill Monroe was the key person in establishing Bluegrass?    The OP's question is about the role of the mandolin in bluegrass.  Should we not discuss the current role of mandolin in bluegrass?  We can either choose to stick with Munroe's tradition or let it evolve into different forms based on what sounds good.

Do we need to play blistering versions of the songs and tunes or can we slow it down a bit and add more lilt, variation and tone?  Look at what Mike Crompton and Matt Flinner and others have done to create their own versions of bluegrass mandolin.  If you have a copy of Matt Flinner's Allstart Bluegrass Jam Along, there are some beautiful slow and medium versions of some of the popular tunes.  And what about Sam Bush's approach to rhythm playing - it is something else.  He can play in the traditional way and he can play out of it.

BTW I am happy not to hear banjo too often.  The crosspicking gets to me after a while.  In contrast, I love cross-picking on the mandolin when done well and when interspersed in a melody.  I like variation in the way Bluegrass mandolin is played in a Blue grass context.  The mandolin as a solo instrument in a bluegrass band can be awe inspiring when done well.

Let's get the thread back on track.

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> Then started wondering: How is the mandolin used in bluegrass? I don't listen to it much but really love the name and would like to listen to it more, but not sure where to start. I know in ITM the mandolin is mainly used for melody, but know little to nothing about bluegrass.
> thanks


The above is an excerpt from the OP's post. The question "How is the mandolin used in bluegrass?" naturally led to an answer that involved Mr. Monroe and his contribution to the art form in question. Despite the debate that ensued, no one can seriously discount the importance of that man from Kentucky and his relevance to this discussion. 

As far as getting the thread back on track....well...it's not like we've been spending the last few pages discussing Dizzy Gillespie.

----------

bjewell

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> I simply don't see how anyone can ignore the role of the guitar.(But, of course, I play the guitar myself).
> 
>  Again, I'm remarking on the simplified view that the mandolin either plays solo or chops on the afterbeat. I refer to early recordings of Monroe. E.g., on Little Cabin Home on the Hill he kicks the song off, plays countermelodies to Lester Flatt's vocal solos, and tremoloes behind the fiddle solos. On Sweetheart You Done Me Wrong, there's a lot going on with both the fiddle and mandolin behind the verses. I believe Monroe took to simplifying the role of the mandolin for two reasons. One was that he concentrated more on his singing and did almost all the lead vocals on the verses. 
> The other, maybe, to create more room for the fiddle (or multiple fiddles).


I cool with the idea that the guitar, bass. banjo (during a mando break) and even the fiddle (with chops) at times all contribute to keeping the beat.  My main point is Monroe considered the mandolin chop to be like the snare drum -- his thoughts.   :Smile:

----------


## Nick Gellie

> As far as getting the thread back on track....well...it's not like we've been spending the last few pages discussing Dizzy Gillespie.


No, you haven't, I agree.  But the discussion has centred on who invented bluegrass in recent posts rather than how is the mandolin used in bluegrass.  While that discussion may have some relevance to the OP's question, it has diverted attention away from how it could be or is used in various contexts and sub-genres.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> Is it not a bit pointless arguing whether Bill Monroe was the key person in establishing Bluegrass?    The OP's question is about the role of the mandolin in bluegrass.  Should we not discuss the current role of mandolin in bluegrass?  We can either choose to stick with Munroe's tradition or let it evolve into different forms based on what sounds good.
> 
> Do we need to play blistering versions of the songs and tunes or can we slow it down a bit and add more lilt, variation and tone?  Look at what Mike Crompton and Matt Flinner and others have done to create their own versions of bluegrass mandolin.  If you have a copy of Matt Flinner's Allstart Bluegrass Jam Along, there are some beautiful slow and medium versions of some of the popular tunes.  And what about Sam Bush's approach to rhythm playing - it is something else.  He can play in the traditional way and he can play out of it.
> 
> BTW I am happy not to hear banjo too often.  The crosspicking gets to me after a while.  In contrast, I love cross-picking on the mandolin when done well and when interspersed in a melody.  I like variation in the way Bluegrass mandolin is played in a Blue grass context.  The mandolin as a solo instrument in a bluegrass band can be awe inspiring when done well.
> 
> Let's get the thread back on track.


Yes let's get back on track.  But the discussion of Bill Monroe's role in bluegrass was germane because he stated his opinion of the mandolin's role --hence the stature of his opinion is relevant! 

Added later: Well OK, I see you posted your view on this at the same time!   :Smile:

----------


## Timbofood

OK, one hundred posts in and not one of all the esteemed folks have left out the simple fact the Bill Monroe decided to call his band "The Bluegrass Boys". It is said that he chose the name to honor his home state of Kentucky. It was not to define a genre of music but his way of identifying where he was.  The definition of the genre simply developed over the years. Good night America, France, the UK and any other interested or disinterested parties, nationalities, principalities or powers. Go make some music and stop whining

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> OK, one hundred posts in and not one of all the esteemed folks have left out the simple fact the Bill Monroe decided to call his band "The Bluegrass Boys". It is said that he chose the name to honor his home state of Kentucky. It was not to define a genre of music but his way of identifying where he was.  The definition of the genre simply developed over the years. Good night America, France, the UK and any other interested or disinterested parties, nationalities, principalities or powers. Go make some music and stop whining


He could have called it Apple Cobbler after his mother's favorite dessert -- what difference would it make?  The issue is not* why or what* he named the music whatever he did --that is irrelevant.   

The relevant point is that fact that he created the genre in the first place, and he played the mandolin as well, so his views on the role of the mandolin in the music (whatever it is called) are noteworthy and important.

Your suggestion to stop posting and start picking is a good one.

----------


## Timbofood

I think we are on the same page Bernie, I like the apple cobbler idea which is as valid as any other. My point was more along the line of the innovators rarely have the foresight to understand that they have started a genre.  How does anyone know that what they started will last for more than fifteen minutes of fame? (Thank you, Andy Warhol)
And to be honest, he played in a band, not a genre. All's fair, still friendly. Time to pick!

----------


## OldSausage

> My point, which the first part of your conditional actually hints at, would be that it is more accurate to say that Bluegrass invented Bill Monroe. When I say that the idea of an individual inventing a genre is problematic, I mean the theory in the philosophy of music that music is not about invention but rather discovery. (Did the first person to play a 4th, a 5th, an octave 'invent' music?) Monroe was the first instantiation of the genre. He was, as you say, already _in_ the genre. In music, as in most things, genera are not 'created', and they are certainly not created by individuals within them. The individuals can only be expressions of them.


Well, if you want to claim that one word really means what another word means, then you can say anything you please and never be wrong.

----------

bjewell

----------


## bjewell

Thanks O.S.  and I bet that Anthony Weiner thang was tough on ya for a few weeks... ;- )

----------


## ralph johansson

> No, you haven't, I agree.  But the discussion has centred on who invented bluegrass in recent posts rather than how is the mandolin used in bluegrass.  While that discussion may have some relevance to the OP's question, it has diverted attention away from how it could be or is used in various contexts and sub-genres.


The question is not who "invented" Bluegrass but rather whether anyone did.  I think it's much more accurate to state that Monroe led the band that inspired the genre. There was of course no way to predict that it would, and that was certainly not Monroe's idea. In the beginning he wasn't the least bit flattered by imitators and changed labels when the Stanley Brothers were signed to Columbia. And, more crucial to the OP's question, Monroe's music, and his use of the mandolin, changed over the years, well into
the 50's.

----------


## ralph johansson

> Zzzz...


OK, so that's your argument. How convincing.

----------

Mike Bunting

----------


## Nick Gellie

Ralph, I don't think there is a definitive answer on whether Bill Munroe invented bluegrass or not.  He was inspirational in getting interest going in a new genre of music.  Can we assume that he along with other contemporaries started a new style of music? Ok from that point can we discuss the role of the mandolin in bluegrass music?  How is it used in waltzes,fiddle tunes, and songs in bluegrass.

Blindbard if I assume correctly is looking for more information from the folks how the mandolin is played to create certain kinds of dynamics and effects in the bluegrass band context.  It is a good question that has not been answered in full yet.

----------


## bjewell

NG, his name is Monroe, not Munroe and to say "he along with other contemporaries started a new style of music" is preposterous.  Mr. Monroe was the originator of Bluegrass; others quickly followed.  To say otherwise is totally incorrect.

----------

Nick Gellie

----------


## Mandosummers

At the risk of riling the Monroe faithful, to credit Bill Monroe with being single handedly responsible for what we know as Bluegrass today is simply incorrect.  The truth is his sound was foundering until he lucked up and hired one Lester Flatt.  Flatt talked him into hiring Earl Scruggs and that is when it all came together around Christmas 1945.  Earl Scruggs was the one who put the fire and drive in Bluegrass.  IMHO Earl Scruggs should get as much or more credit as the "Father of Bluegrass" than Monroe.

----------

Andy Alexander, 

Nick Gellie

----------


## DataNick

> At the risk of riling the Monroe faithful, to credit Bill Monroe with being single handedly responsible for what we know as Bluegrass today is simply incorrect. * The truth* is his sound was foundering until he lucked up and hired one Lester Flatt.  Flatt talked him into hiring Earl Scruggs and that is when it all came together around Christmas 1945.  Earl Scruggs was the one who put the fire and drive in Bluegrass.  IMHO Earl Scruggs should get as much or more credit as the "Father of Bluegrass" than Monroe.


"The Truth" according to you. When you have done the necessary documentary investigative WORK, then publish a paper, adequately foot-noted and referenced. Then I'll read it Sir, and weigh your dissertation against the wealth of work established already by respected musicologists.

Let's not be so quick to state "The Truth", when it's really an opinion!

----------

bjewell, 

Mike Bunting

----------


## Mandosummers

> "The Truth" according to you. When you have done the necessary documentary investigative WORK, then publish a paper, adequately foot-noted and referenced. Then I'll read it Sir, and weigh your dissertation against the wealth of work established already by respected musicologists.
> 
> Let's not be so quick to state "The Truth", when it's really an opinion!


 :Sleepy:

----------


## Mandosummers

This directly from Lance LeRoy, not me......

"Lance LeRoy, bluegrass enthusiast, band manager and well-respected Lester Flatt biographer, gave his opinion of bluegrass at its best, “Looking back on it all, I think it would require someone with extreme tunnel vision to dispute the viewpoint that bluegrass music was first introduced to the world there around Christmas of 1945 when Earl first appeared on the Grand Ole Opry with Bill and the Blue Grass Boys. I don’t buy this ‘bluegrass as we know it today’ cop-out. I regard it as being the first time bluegrass music was introduced to the world...PERIOD! It took Earl’s three-finger roll on the five-string banjo to supply the music’s single most distinguishing characteristic. The four other parts were already here; he added the fifth one that is absolutely essential if you are going to have bluegrass music. The sound of the banjo played with a three-finger roll has always symbolized ‘bluegrass’ to both fans and the general public as well. I doubt that any other of the instruments even come close. 
 “Now I’m certainly not suggesting that Earl created bluegrass music,” continued LeRoy, “but then again neither did any other one individual. Bill Monroe was the band leader and, as a Grand Ole Opry member, provided the forum. Whether through fate, blind luck or whatever, he assembled what I think is the first and the best group ever to play bluegrass. Nobody has been able to improve on it since. For all this, he richly deserves to be called the ‘Father of Bluegrass Music’. It’s one of those honorary titles that befits the role he played in that band. Bill Monroe has been symbolic of bluegrass music throughout the world for a long, long time. In reality, though, bluegrass had a number of fathers.”

----------

Andy Alexander

----------


## OldSausage

Didn't Bill Murray invent bluegrass?

----------

bjewell, 

DataNick, 

Stephen Porter

----------


## M.Marmot

> Didn't Bill Murray invent bluegrass?


No sir, but i do believe he invented a bluegrass hybrid,

*Carl Spackler:* This is a hybrid. This is a cross, ah, of Bluegrass, Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent, and Northern California Sensemilia. The amazing stuff about this is, that you can play 36 holes on it in the afternoon, take it home and just get stoned to the bejeezus-belt that night on this stuff.

----------


## bjewell

> Didn't Bill Murray invent bluegrass?


No OS, "Lance LeRoy, bluegrass enthusiast, band manager and well-respected Lester Flatt biographer.."  Says otherwise and has no vested interest in it except for the fact that he is well respected despite being a band "manager" (band joke there) and did a biography on a Lester.  That leaves Bill out for sure...

----------


## bjewell

Hey, M. Marmot, did you get my e-mail?

----------


## M.Marmot

Yes sir, i did - expect a reply later this evening.




Just to keep things on track here - how about folks post some good videos to demonstrate the sound of the mandolin in bluegrass for the O.P.?

----------


## DataNick

> This directly from Lance LeRoy, not me......
> 
> "Lance LeRoy, bluegrass enthusiast, band manager and well-respected Lester Flatt biographer, gave his opinion of bluegrass at its best..."


OK,

So I am to hold the OPINION of Lance LeRoy as equal in weight to Lomax, The Conways of UNC Chapel Hill, Rintzler, Rosenberg, Cantwell, and other musicologists.

Sorry, but I don't hold opinions on equal footing with well-respected academic research...you can blow smoke on that in your reality all you want to...this is a fool's errand!

I'm out!

----------


## mandolirius

> At the risk of riling the Monroe faithful, to credit Bill Monroe with being single handedly responsible for what we know as Bluegrass today is simply incorrect.  The truth is his sound was foundering until he lucked up and hired one Lester Flatt.  Flatt talked him into hiring Earl Scruggs and that is when it all came together around Christmas 1945.  Earl Scruggs was the one who put the fire and drive in Bluegrass.  IMHO Earl Scruggs should get as much or more credit as the "Father of Bluegrass" than Monroe.


Actually, that's not quite the truth. It wasn't Lester Flatt who talked Monroe into hiring Earl Scruggs. Flatt was actually opposed to having another banjo player as he felt the previous one ("Stringbean" aka Dave Akeman) had hampered the band's sound. He quickly changed his mind after hearing Earl. According to fiddler Jim Shumate, it was he who facilitated the audition with Earl.

----------


## mrmando

> George is more than just an immaculate beard-he also knows something about the essence of bluegrass...


I'm supposed to take the word of a man who can't pronounce "paroxysm"?

Interesting video, but the idea that the Scruggs roll had been around for hundreds of years would be firmly rejected by any scholar of banjo playing I'm aware of.

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Hello, all,
> A few days ago we went to go buy some plants for our backyard and wound up buying this cool-looking grass that was a blueish-grey in color.
> I laughed and made a joke about bluegrass. Then started wondering: How is the mandolin used in bluegrass? I don't listen to it much but really love the name and would like to listen to it more, but not sure where to start. I know in ITM the mandolin is mainly used for melody, but know little to nothing about bluegrass.
> thanks


Listen to it. Listen to Monroe for starters, there are others mentioned on this forum. Thile is not a bluegrass player.

----------

DataNick, 

jesserules

----------


## Herbm55

> OK,
> 
> So I am to hold the OPINION of Lance LeRoy as equal in weight to Lomax, The Conways of UNC Chapel Hill, Rintzler, Rosenberg, Cantwell, and other musicologists.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't hold opinions on equal footing with well-respected academic research...


Why not?? For one thing, Lance was there to actually see that band. Not to mention, he is one of the founders of IBMA. Besides, what part of their "well-respected academic research" disputes the huge influence of the three-fingered sound of Earl's banjo as being absolutely necessary in replacing Stringbean and/or an accordion, thereby giving birth to what we all have come to recognize as "bluegrass?" There will always be Monroe-centric and Scruggs-centric folks disagreeing over the chicken and the egg. For me, whoever convinced Bill to give Earl a listen, whether it was Lester or Jim, now THAT'S the guy I want to thank! LOL

The original question was about the mandolin in bluegrass. Well, Bill pretty much carved that one in stone:  it's a great timekeeper and a great lead instrument!

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Tom Coletti

> Listen to it. Listen to Monroe for starters, there are others mentioned on this forum. Thile is not a bluegrass player.



*grabs ridiculously large tub of popcorn*

He may not be a quote-bluegrass-unquote-topped-with-a-stetson-wrapped-in-a-bow-and-shipped-to-your-doorstep-in-six-to-eight-business-days player, but his bluegrass playing is quite nice, just a more modern spin on it.



Thile on a Monroe number:



Monroe on a Monroe number:



And I must say, upon further investigation, there are times in the bluesy stuff when Thile sounds like Monroe in the traditional sense and Monroe sounds like Thile in the progressive sense.

There's a bit of overlap in a lot of stuff, so my best advice would be to listen to a bit of everything, find what you like, and enjoy it.


--Tom

----------

Perry Babasin

----------


## DataNick

> Listen to it. Listen to Monroe for starters, there are others mentioned on this forum. Thile is not a bluegrass player.


Mike,

Give it up!

All discussions re: Monroe invented Bluegrass, Chris Thile is or is not a Bluegrass mandolinist, etc., etc. are in the realm of tweedle-dee, tweedle-dum, and pixie dust.

Everything is everything, and up is down, I have touched the sky and it is hollow.....

I am weary of trying to reason with they they who might be convinced against their will, because they are of the same opinion still!

Logic, reason, and true academic investigative or documentary evidence has no place on the net.

Go play mando on the bench my Brother, it'll spare you the aggravation.

----------

bjewell

----------


## mrmando

> Thile is not a bluegrass player.


Nonetheless I'd recommend the Thile/Daves recording as a good example of the role[s] of mandolin in bluegrass. It's nice not to have the banjo and fiddle mucking it all up, too.  :Wink:

----------

bjewell, 

Nick Gellie, 

Perry Babasin

----------


## bjewell

He said "mucking it up..."  ;- )  And DN can I play it ont he beach instead of on the bench?

----------


## DataNick

> He said "mucking it up..."  ;- )  And DN can I play it ont he beach instead of on the bench?


From the land of SoCal: Absolutely...LOL!

----------


## bjewell

Well we here in NorCal have some beaches too plus we have the water.  Nanner nanner nanner... ;- )  Al Gore invented Blugrass...

----------

DataNick

----------


## DataNick

> Well we here in NorCal have some beaches too plus we have the water.  Nanner nanner nanner... ;- )  Al Gore invented Blugrass...


Don't tell me you're a SF Giants fan....I said don't tell me...LOL!

Actually I love the Bay Area, SF is my most favorite scenic, place to do stuff city on the planet. Never been to Sactown yet, would love to go though!

Would love to get up that way and do some pickin...got some acquaintances from Strawberry who reside in Berkeley...

----------


## Timbofood

We have beaches here in Michigan too,nanner,nanner! No salt water though.

----------


## bjewell

Sacramento is a beautiful old city.  I want to move farther north, used to live in Mendocino but have to wait until I retire...

----------


## bjewell

What's a "Michigan?"  Oh yeah, that nicer state next to the one I grew up in -- Ohio.  YEah you have great beaches but it is c-o-l-d... -L-

----------


## mandolirius

> The original question was about the mandolin in bluegrass. Well, Bill pretty much carved that one in stone:  it's a great timekeeper and a great lead instrument!


That may be what the mandolin has become in contemporary bluegrass but it was not Monroe's initial vision for the instrument. If you listen to the '46-47 recordings and even later stuff up until the mid to late '50's, you hear he was doing all kinds of stuff for backup and very rarely chopping. 

If you listen to the recordings chronologically you can hear when he started chopping more. And if you read the various biographies, histories of bluegrass, liner notes, magazine articles etc, you understand the reasons for it. Just listening to the '46/47 recordings you can hear how intricate and perfect the rhythm was. There was no room for, or need for a constant chop. In the early days, it was just one trick in a whole bag Monroe used.

----------

DataNick, 

Mike Bunting, 

Nick Gellie

----------


## bjewell

I'm going to have to call my old friend Tom Ewing and ask him about this...

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Mike,
> 
> Give it up!
> 
> All discussions re: Monroe invented Bluegrass, Chris Thile is or is not a Bluegrass mandolinist, etc., etc. are in the realm of tweedle-dee, tweedle-dum, and pixie dust.
> 
> Everything is everything, and up is down, I have touched the sky and it is hollow.....
> 
> I am weary of trying to reason with they they who might be convinced against their will, because they are of the same opinion still!
> ...


Your reply is nonsense.

I don't care who invented bluegrass, I was responding to the first post where he asked about the mandolin's role in bluegrass. CT himself says that he is not a bluegrass player. For a beginner like the OP, listening to the first generation players would be the starting place to understand the mandolin's role in the music.
 I'm not interested in all your twiddle-dee, pixie dust stuff. It is not your obligation to "try to reason" (you are obviously the man who knows what is reasonable) with anyone.

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Nonetheless I'd recommend the Thile/Daves recording as a good example of the role[s] of mandolin in bluegrass. It's nice not to have the banjo and fiddle mucking it all up, too.


I imagine that it is arguable that that recording is not representative of bluegrass since it is a band music as opposed to duo music. BTW, for all the newbies on the list who are in love with Chris Thile, I am not in any way disputing his skill and talent, in fact I have his first LP and enjoy his latest recording, I just don't think that he is a great example of a bluegrass style mandolin player.

----------


## Timbofood

Yep, sure can be cold!  This year it's been a cool summer, fairly wet too but, boy, the apple crop is incredible! Understand the grapes are doing very well too!

----------


## Tom Coletti

Not sure if I should hop in a lifeboat or ride this out to its frigid watery end. Either way, the boat's a-sinkin'.

--Tom

----------


## DataNick

> Your reply is nonsense.
> 
> I don't care who invented bluegrass, I was responding to the first post where he asked about the mandolin's role in bluegrass. CT himself says that he is not a bluegrass player. For a beginner like the OP, listening to the first generation players would be the starting place to understand the mandolin's role in the music.
>  I'm not interested in all your twiddle-dee, pixie dust stuff. It is not your obligation to "try to reason" (you are obviously the man who knows what is reasonable) with anyone.


Mike,

Didn't mean to lump the CT thing with the rest of my reply... to me the CT is a bluegrass mandolinist argument and the Bill Monroe did/or did not invent bluegrass are just different shades of the same grey, round & round discussion that never seems to get anywhere.

If you're offended...that was not my intent.

Have a good one...

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## mrmando

> I imagine that it is arguable that that recording is not representative of bluegrass since it is a band music as opposed to duo music.


Ah, but I never said the recording on the whole is representative of bluegrass as a genre. I am saying that the things Thile does on the mandolin in that recording are good examples of bluegrass mandolin playing. Most of it would fit just fine into a larger band context, but it's easier to hear what he's doing with only one other instrument. 



> I just don't think that he is a great example of a bluegrass style mandolin player.


I didn't say he was, and when one considers his entire _oeuvre,_ it's clear that he isn't. However, I didn't make a categorical statement about Chris or his _oeuvre;_ rather, I cited his playing on a particular recording.

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## bjewell

Hey!  Let's have a kumba-ya moment okay fellas?  It's all good.... ;- )

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## DataNick

> Hey!  Let's have a kumba-ya moment okay fellas?  It's all good.... ;- )


I'm good Bro!

I've been called out worse, etc. in life.

At the end of the day, everybody dosen't have to agree with you...I'm good with that.

In perspective,

I live in SoCal, where hotties abound and the weather's great, been blessed more than I deserve, have my health, and I get to play mando in a BG band.

Life couldn't be better!

Unless I was in NoCal...LOL!

Late!

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## bjewell

Ya got some time, check out Jacksonville OR, the Britt Festival there and the fact that it hardly rains at all.  Plus it's freakin' Oregon!

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## DataNick

> Ya got some time, check out Jacksonville OR, the Britt Festival there and the fact that it hardly rains at all.  Plus it's freakin' Oregon!


When is that festival?

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## DataNick

OK,

Saw it on the web, multiple festivals, next one OctoberFest?

Looks nice, thanks for the heads up...

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## Mike Bunting

> Ah, but I never said the recording on the whole is representative of bluegrass as a genre. I am saying that the things Thile does on the mandolin in that recording are good examples of bluegrass mandolin playing. Most of it would fit just fine into a larger band context, but it's easier to hear what he's doing with only one other instrument. 
> 
> I didn't say he was, and when one considers his entire _oeuvre,_ it's clear that he isn't. However, I didn't make a categorical statement about Chris or his _oeuvre;_ rather, I cited his playing on a particular recording.


I hear you.

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## ralph johansson

> That may be what the mandolin has become in contemporary bluegrass but it was not Monroe's initial vision for the instrument. If you listen to the '46-47 recordings and even later stuff up until the mid to late '50's, you hear he was doing all kinds of stuff for backup and very rarely chopping. 
> 
> If you listen to the recordings chronologically you can hear when he started chopping more. And if you read the various biographies, histories of bluegrass, liner notes, magazine articles etc, you understand the reasons for it. Just listening to the '46/47 recordings you can hear how intricate and perfect the rhythm was. There was no room for, or need for a constant chop. In the early days, it was just one trick in a whole bag Monroe used.



When I wrote the same things I was told (without proof, of course) that I was clueless ....

It has been hypothesized that Monroe started chopping out of necessity, to make up for the weakness of some of his sidemen. But he had some very strong guitarists after Martin and Mayfield, e.g., Joe Stuart, Peter Rowan, and Benny Williams (at least on record). I have offered other explanations, the switch to 2/2, singing lead on verses, greater emphasis on the fiddle, a cleaner, less cluttered sound (it gets a bit crowded on some of those Columbia numbers).

But that need not concern us. Monroe's early recordings suggested a wide range of possibilities, and it's up to contemporary players to find their own approach, and, of course their own ways of interaction between bass, guitar, and mandolin.
 Nothing is "written in stone" and nobody laid down any "rules". We're talking about *music* here.

In my bluegrass period I played with a four-piece band; there was no fiddle. So I had to develop a more active role for the mandolin, more countermelodies, a more varied approach to rhythm, etc. But then I really took no interest in labels or "authenticity". The important thing was to listen to the other cats, and to create.

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almeriastrings, 

Mike Bunting, 

Tommcgtx

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## bjewell

Don't know about europe, but in the USA it is 100 percent about "authenticity."  You watch the Cumberland Highlanders Show and you'll see folks out of incredibly small towns in Virginia, the Carolinas, Kentucky, etc and they play with a touch that cannot be taught.  The music - -playing, singing and tunes -- are handed down from generation to generation through the church as well as the honky tonk.  Those folks play exciting, driving music with killer picking and harmonies you don't hear anywhere else.  

That is far different than the "yuppiegrass" I hear on the local alternative radio station.  Music played at three-quarters speed with saccharine harmonies, boring songs and singing more appropriate to current Nashville production values.  I don't consider that Bluegrass anymore than I considered The Kingston Trio folk singers.

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Alex Orr, 

almeriastrings, 

Mike Bunting

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## Mike Bunting

> Don't know about europe, but in the USA it is 100 percent about "authenticity."  You watch the Cumberland Highlanders Show and you'll see folks out of incredibly small towns in Virginia, the Carolinas, Kentucky, etc and they play with a touch that cannot be taught.  The music - -playing, singing and tunes -- are handed down from generation to generation through the church as well as the honky tonk.  Those folks play exciting, driving music with killer picking and harmonies you don't hear anywhere else.  
> 
> That is far different than the "yuppiegrass" I hear on the local alternative radio station.  Music played at three-quarters speed with saccharine harmonies, boring songs and singing more appropriate to current Nashville production values.  I don't consider that Bluegrass anymore than I considered The Kingston Trio folk singers.


Great post. It makes me recall my first year at the Owensboro Mandocamp. We went to Rosine for a catfish feed, outside at the Old Barn. A great local band, sorry I don't remember the name, set up to play some great tunes. Old Wakefield sat in for a few tunes and had a great time. Much jamming and sharing of tunes ensued. 
  Regarding the second part of your quote, I recall Ron Thomason saying that there were three kinds of bluegrass singers, men, women and those California singers.  :Smile:

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bjewell

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## Mike Bunting

> *grabs ridiculously large tub of popcorn*
> 
> He may not be a quote-bluegrass-unquote-topped-with-a-stetson-wrapped-in-a-bow-and-shipped-to-your-doorstep-in-six-to-eight-business-days player, but his bluegrass playing is quite nice, just a more modern spin on it.
> 
> 
> 
> Thile on a Monroe number:
> 
> 
> ...


While Thile is wiggling all around, note the economy of motion in the Monroe video.  :Laughing: 
And isn't Baker amazing?

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almeriastrings, 

Tommcgtx

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## Herbm55

> That may be what the mandolin has become in contemporary bluegrass but it was not Monroe's initial vision for the instrument. If you listen to the '46-47 recordings and even later stuff up until the mid to late '50's, you hear he was doing all kinds of stuff for backup ...Just listening to the '46/47 recordings you can hear how intricate and perfect the rhythm was. There was no room for, or need for a constant chop.






Well, sometimes there was room.....    :Smile: 
True though, he had many, many arrows in his quiver.

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FLATROCK HILL

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## almeriastrings

> He may not be a quote-bluegrass-unquote-topped-with-a-stetson-wrapped-in-a-bow-and-shipped-to-your-doorstep-in-six-to-eight-business-days player, but his bluegrass playing is quite nice, just a more modern spin on it.


My opinion (and it is just that, my opinion) is that Thile completely loses the tension in this tune. It is played far too fast, at a rushed and messy pace, with none of the air between the notes, or spaces that make the original so interesting. All the jerking and wriggling around is enough to give me a headache by itself - and that's without listening to him. That does it too.

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Nick Gellie

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## Nick Gellie

I agree Almeria,  I find his mannerisms distracting.  I think he could do well to make more contact with his audience. I do like the fact that he can create some interesting mandolin improvisations, perhaps not in the traditional approach of Mike Compton and Matt Flinner who I much prefer.

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## Tom Coletti

> I agree Almeria,  I find his mannerisms distracting.  I think he could do well to make more contact with his audience. I do like the fact that he can create some interesting mandolin improvisations, perhaps not in the traditional approach of Mike Compton and Matt Flinner who I much prefer.


Thile has commented about his moving around on stage and says that he isn't fully aware of it until after the fact. To be completely fair though; I've seen Compton squirm around a bit when he plays, too. Then Sam Bush has his headbanging thing, Jerry Douglas has his quivering lower lip (pretty common in musicians, supposedly due to some mental connection between singing and playing an instrument), and lots of other players have their own quirky ticks. I really don't care all too much of what happens when music is being made. If an exotic worm dance is required to bring out the sound, then bring on the exotic worm dance.

--Tom

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Nick Gellie, 

Tobin, 

Tommcgtx

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## Timbofood

Speed kills!

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## lowtone2

> I'm supposed to take the word of a man who can't pronounce "paroxysm"?
> 
> Interesting video, but the idea that the Scruggs roll had been around for hundreds of years would be firmly rejected by any scholar of banjo playing I'm aware of.


 Yes, but how about that beard?

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## ralph johansson

> Well, sometimes there was room.....   
> True though, he had many, many arrows in his quiver.


Note how insistent the chopping is, even when he's singing; maybe the vocals were overdubbed on this session (also note that the chopping ceases two bars before the mandolin solo). Really, I think this is time-keeping rather than rhythm playing. The guitar is all but inaudible giving the whole thing a somewhat empty sound. A very instructive example.

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## ralph johansson

By contrast, thre's a YouTube clip of Alison Kraus singing Cry, Cry Darlin' with the Tony Rice Unit. Strictly speaking, it's not Bluegrass, as there's no banjo, but the piece certainly has a Bluegrass groove. Gaudreau is not contetn with just chopping on the 2 and 3 (in 3/4 time), sometimes he plays a kind of eighth notes shuffle, sometimes triplets, tremolo on the bridge, and it all blends beautifully with Rice's guitar.

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## AlanN

Yes, hats off to JAG whose style "fits in the cracks of all the other players" - his words. Yet, you would never mistake him for anything other than bluegrass mandolin. The man has wide open ears and does what is needed for the tune at hand, in his style. Wakefield also does something other than chop on 2 and 3 for waltz time, kind of a push/pull thing. That's what I look for, the innovative within the norm.

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## chuck3

> While Thile is wiggling all around, note the economy of motion in the Monroe video.


I had to watch both videos to appreciate that ... well played!

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Mike Bunting

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