# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  Home Recording Setups?

## Mandosummers

Anyone out there have a home recording setup they are happy with?  Id' love to get some feedback on audio interfaces that others have tried.

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## blmjr

I'm using Reaper and a Focusrite audio interface (2 input), a couple of AKG mics and KRK studio monitors. 

Easy to set up, sounds great and not much $$$. 

Recording yourself gives you great feedback for your playing.

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## neil argonaut

Also KRK monitors here, Golden Age preamp, Adobe audition though always considering switching over to reaper, SM58's and samson condenser, but by far the weakest link in the chain is my room, which doesn't sound great.

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## P.D. Kirby

I started with the Tascam DP 02 (didn't like it) it was not very user friendly but it did a great job once you got it all figured out. Back in March I picked up the Tascam Neo 2488- 24 Track and it's the cat's pajamas. Has all of the effects on board and follows a very logical process for recording and mix down for Mastering. I use two AT-2020 Microphones for the Mandolin and an assortment of other Mics for other instruments and vocals. Musicians Friend slashed the price on the 2488 to $649.00 which is a bargain for what you get. YMMV

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## foldedpath

If you're looking for a good computer interface, I've had very good results with RME gear. Not the cheapest stuff out there, but not the most expensive, either. Their driver stability has been very good over the years. That's critical with a computer interface, since you're dealing with OS upgrades and changes in interface standards. RME has a good reputation in that area. The quality of the A/D conversion and preamps is very good, although not quite top-of-the-line. 

I don't use a computer for primary capture these days, only in the rare case where someone wants an overdub. Lately I've moved to a small rack stuffed with outboard preamps (Great River and AEA TRP), feeding a Tascam DR-680 six-channel field recorder. That's a rig I'm very happy with, for recording "live" in studio or for location gigs. The files get moved to a rackmount editing computer running Samplitude after the recording session. I'm aiming for "commercial quality" (whatever that means in this current MP3 era), and I'm recording mostly other people as a side business. I'd still use this rig for personal use, but I've spent a long time growing and learning the gear up to this point. 

The one big thing I've learned, is that buying very high quality front-end gear like mics and preamps is the best investment I've made. I'm still using Neumann mics I bought 20 years ago, and mic preamps I bought 10 years ago. I just assume that the digital stuff in the middle will always be changing, for one reason or another. It's why I've always favored a modular approach to home recording, instead of gear that combines too many things in one box. If your budget is limited and this is your first recording system, then buy whatever you need to get started, but don't obsess too much on the digital recording method itself. 

Choice of microphone, choice of mic placement, the preamps you use and the room you record in, are what create the magic. That's where you get that last 10% or 20% of audio quality that you won't get by sticking up a Zoom H2 taped on a mic stand. 

Everything downstream from there is pretty much interchangeable, due to the advances in digital recording tech. I know that might get an argument from someone still using tape.  :Smile:  And I'll grant some differences there (although not significant enough for me, personally). But I think it's true for anyone recording a digital first capture. That's why I'm starting to think of this stuff in the middle as a "bit bucket," and focusing as much as I can, on the front end.

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## Mandosummers

Thanks for all the posts.  I have really struggled with this for several years.  I have been though several prosumer audio interfaces.  I currently have a Presonus Firestudio Project and also have a Grace M 101 preamp.    Mics are an AT 4051 pencil condenser and a Rode NT1A.  This setup just lacks any sense of space or presnce or warmth.  Everything just sounds dead... may be my room.  I am thinking of ditching the whole thing, except the mics, and trying a RME Babyface.  I read a lot of good reviews about warmth and highs with that unit. Any thoughts?

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## Barry Wilson

I bought the zoom r24 and have just started playing with it but it is a complete workstation. built in fx sends and can use before recording or after, 3 sends. 8 built in touch sensitive midi triggers, each track can be a recording or a loop. you can trigger each track by sequencing or using the midi pads, or assign an audi source as the loop/track. has a couple built in mics that work really well. I am taking the setup and using the built in mics to record a band tonight, hard rock stuff so it'll be loud. records direct to sd card (my 16gb sd card is good for 50hrs recording). it also has usb so you can hook to a computer and control a DAW with real sliders and use as your input. the board itself has 8 inputs, both 1/4" and xlr, can record up to 8 channels at once, 24 track, and can by synched to another r16 or r24 for 16 tracks at once... I am very impressed with this unit. I haven't even touched the sampler yet. I just use the drum patterns and it came with a 2gb usb stick of drum loops from session drummers and such that are killer (saving those for personal projects  :Wink:  )

http://www.long-mcquade.com/products...Controller.htm

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## Verne Andru

Quite a few modern interfaces provide excellent A/D conversion. Focusrite makes some fantastic Firewire interfaces that have studio quality [read: Bob Neve] preamps that can be programmed to run stand-alone or with the interface.

There are tons of low cost, great quality mics available now. When recording acoustic I use a 57 around the 12th fret and an MXL tube condenser around the lower bout. I also record from the instruments pickups, if available, so I record 4 tracks simultaneously allowing me to mix and match in the DAW.

As far as a DAW goes, there are lots of very capable software solutions around these days. I use Cubase SX. It's stable and does what I need.

Once tracked it's really important to use busses so you can gang your tracks together for mixing and effects. I almost always toss a bit of reverb [impulse verbs are the best], some delay and I make extensive use of Waves C4 for tweaking the frequencies and adding compression.

If you are using a lot of tracks and plug-ins you need to make sure you turn off all the unnecessary operating system bits - like shadows under pointers, balloon help, etc. as these rob CPU cycles. Having a set of fast drives - 7800 RPM with either Firewire or USB 2+ - also helps considerably.

Oh, and never let your DAW go on the internet if you want it to remain stable. Even with the best firewalls, tracking software, etc. gets installed whether you like it or not, and that stuff makes a serious mess of a recording setup.

Check into recording forums like those hosted by Cubase, etc. - lots of valuable info to be had from those folks.

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## rynando

Buy the best microphone you can afford.

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## rynando

> Thanks for all the posts.  I have really struggled with this for several years.  I have been though several prosumer audio interfaces.  I currently have a Presonus Firestudio Project and also have a Grace M 101 preamp.    Mics are an AT 4051 pencil condenser and a Rode NT1A.  This setup just lacks any sense of space or presnce or warmth.  Everything just sounds dead... may be my room.  I am thinking of ditching the whole thing, except the mics, and trying a RME Babyface.  I read a lot of good reviews about warmth and highs with that unit. Any thoughts?


As you've noted, your entire setup is geared towards producing the opposite of "presence and warmth."  The RODE NT1A is, frankly, horrible.  Thin and harsh are the two adjectives which spring to mind.  The AT4051 is a decent mic but not at all a "warm" one, especially when coupled with "accurate" preamps like the M101 which is, in my opinion, a waste of money.

I would sell everything and get the RME interface you mentioned and a single, high-quality, microphone.

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## almeriastrings

I have had excellent results from our Apogee Ensemble interface (Mac only). Very nice preamps and conversion. We have a couple of other preamps more for variety than anything else... a Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 and a Focusrite ISA One. Mic wise, all kinds of things have come and gone over the years. Now pretty much settled on (and very happy with) a pair of Neumann KM-184's, an AT4051, Beyer M201 (dynamic), and a very nice SE Electronics ZE5600A Mk.II LD tube model. Have couple outboard compressors, and also use an Allen & Heath Zed series desk sometimes, but do most 'in the box' via Logic Studio these days.

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## frshwtrbob

Mandosummers, 

If you want "warm" then you should try the best ribbon mic that you can afford. Go to gearslutz.com and do a search about them for opinions. A lot of pro and home recording engineers rave about how they make 'sterile/harsh' digital recordings sound less 'sterile/harsh'. 

and also try these links....

http://recordinghacks.com/microphones

http://www.microphone-data.com/default.asp/

Hope this helps,
Bob

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## Mandosummers

I sent Don Julin an email and he was kind to respond.  He pretty much says the same thing several of you have... Most of my setup needs to go.  I wish someone here had some first hand experience with the RME Babyface.  There are sample clips out on the Internet but they are all sample rap vocals or voice overs... not really helpful for mando/guitar.  Wish I could just go to a studio or a store and check out a bunch of equipment (in my price range  :Laughing: first hand. I have apparently already wasted a lot of hard to come by money.

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## Don Grieser

If you go to www.zenproaudio.com they have a Clipalator where you can listen to a whole bunch of microphones, preamps, and other gear. One of the samples they use is an acoustic guitar, not a mandolin, but it gives you an idea of what the different mics sound like on a string instrument. It's a great resource for doing research on the web.

These days I'm using a Steinberg MR816x for an interface. The preamps are clean and sound quite good as do the converters. I use an OktavaMod 219 as a close mic (not a bright microphone, very ribbon-like without the problems a ribbon has if you don't have the right preamp) and an OktavaMod 012 with omni capsule for a room mic. If you only close mic, I think that can add to the dry, sterile sound. 

I used a ribbon on most of my recording listed below, close mic'ed. Since most ribbons have a figure of 8 pickup pattern, it did capture some of the room at the same time. I sent my mixes to someone who runs them through some high $ outboard gear to master them. That makes a huge difference to my ear.

And please share what Don Julin recommended.  :Grin:

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## Spruce

> I wish someone here had some first hand experience with the RME Babyface.  There are sample clips out on the Internet but they are all sample rap vocals or voice overs... not really helpful for mando/guitar.  Wish I could just go to a studio or a store and check out a bunch of equipment (in my price range first hand. I have apparently already wasted a lot of hard to come by money.


Go hang out at the TapeOp message board...
You can access it after you subscribe to the Magazine...   :Wink: 
Here's the free subscription page...
Just do it.
It's _so-ooo_ inspiring, and it's free!....

The message board has all kinds of info, probably including someone with first-hand experience with the RME Babyface....

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## lukmanohnz

I was never happy with the sound quality of my recorded guitar until I bought a set of Neumann KM184 small area condenser mics.  Even a high end Audio Technica large area condenser (which yielded phenomenal results for vocals) didn't translate the acoustic tone of a guitar to my recordings.  The small area condensers have better transient response so they capture the nuances of pick attack and transient top vibrations better, making all the difference.  You don't need two, however - there's a nice write-up in a recent issue of Acoustic Guitar magazine (the one with Sarah Jaroscz on the cover, I think) explaining a good technique for recording a stringed instrument with only a single mic while retaining a big, wide open sound field and avoiding phasing problems that can plague stereo micing.  I'm sure what's between the mic and the recording media makes a difference, but I suspect that the microphone has the biggest impact of all.

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## Pete Martin

I am currently using an RME UFX, John Hardy and AEA TRP pres and usually just use ribbon mics, AEA, Royer and an RCA44bx that is something else.  My DAW is Reaper (have used Pro Tools, Cubase, Audution in the past, like Reaper much better).

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## Mandosummers

> ... My DAW is Reaper (have used Pro Tools, Cubase, Audution in the past, like Reaper much better).


Pete,
I was just curious why you preferred Reaper.  I've used Cubase for years but have never tried Reaper, I do have a copy of it though and if ditch the Presonus I'll lose the bundled license for Cubase (it checks and has to see the Presonus interface attached to the PC before it will open).

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## Barry Wilson

I've tried a lot of DAWS and I liked Mixcraft the best. it was simple straight forward controls and such. I find most DAW stuff far too complicated with overlapping windows and such. check out mixcraft. and it's only $75 to buy...

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## Pete Counter

Blueridgeborn, I too have the Tascam 2488 and it is the cats pajamas as far as home recording, its pretty easy to use, has tons of effects and features, built in cd burner.. its the best thing for having a studio in the home!

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## foldedpath

> Wish I could just go to a studio or a store and check out a bunch of equipment (in my price range first hand. I have apparently already wasted a lot of hard to come by money.


It's not really wasted money, just part of the learning process.  :Smile:  We've all been there. 

Also, remember that much of this is subjective, so there's a limit to how much outside advice can help. We're all shooting for different things in a forum like this. Some are recording as a learning tool, some for a friends-and-family archive or personal web page, some for commercial release. 

Tastes will vary. For example, many people here like ribbon mics. I'm not a huge fan of them for acoustic instruments, even though I occasionally use them (Royer 121 mainly) on what I consider the right sources. Small diaphragm condensers through the right preamps are more my thing (KM-184's, Mohave MA-100's). I always find myself reaching for an EQ to add highs with most ribbons. I miss the subtle things in the "air" band up there that ribbons don't capture. I also do some classical recording, where the musicians are looking for different things than a Bluegrass recording of a fiddle (more hiss in the bow sound, for one thing). 

But that doesn't mean it will hit your ears the same way. Gotta experiment, and unfortunately that means time and money, unless you're lucky enough to have a friend working in a pro studio with a big mic locker and racks full of preamps. 

One other thing needs to be said, if it hasn't been already: "Warmth" happens _in front_ of the microphone, as well as in the mic-preamp-A/D-mix buss chain. I've seen people chase "warmth" and never get there, because they put a thin-sounding instrument, or thin-sounding playing technique, in front of an otherwise decent recording chain. It might be true that your current recording chain is a little on the clean/"sterile" side, but it's still a decent recording chain for an acoustic capture. Sometimes it pays to think as much about what's going on in front of the mic, as it is getting obsessed about mics, preamps, and the rest of the gear. 

One final thought (because this is getting long)... much like learning how to play an instrument and playing with others, I found that my recording technique took a major jump after I started recording other musicians, instead of just recording myself. It's easy to fall down a rabbit hole when trying to record one player and one instrument. Once you start recording other people, you learn more generic techniques that can feed back into getting the sound on your own instrument the way you want it.

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## Jim Nollman

I like that description of "chasing warmth". Don't we all.

I'm noticing that this year's big thing in plugin software is warmth. Software that adds tape saturation or tube saturation or both. I even see one plugin that lets you choose the number of diodes in your tube selection. There's even a bunch of plugins from Waves, that are named after specific producers — Eddie Kramer is one name — and then lets you recreate their warmth as your warmth. I've tried a few of the plugins, with good results, so...i slightly disagree with my friend Folded Path. 

Indeed, it is becoming increasingly possible to add warmth after the fact. Add one of these plugins as an aux send to several harmony vocal tracks, and it makes the whole accrue that warm and fuzzy sound that we all like to hear. In two years time, maybe this will be the next "generic technique". And the audio purists, with their racks of retro tube preamps maintained with great love, will be grumbling that digital "warmth" remains an oxymoron, or at the very least, can never be as warm or as pure  as what they can achieve.

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## Avi Ziv

> Go hang out at the TapeOp message board...
> You can access it after you subscribe to the Magazine...  
> Here's the free subscription page...
> Just do it.
> It's _so-ooo_ inspiring, and it's free!....
> 
> The message board has all kinds of info, probably including someone with first-hand experience with the RME Babyface....


Just came home and found my first hard copy waiting for me. I think I heard about it from you first so...thanks!

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## neil argonaut

Yeah every time I get a new issue of tapeop through the door, I can't quite believe it's free including delivery. It's nice to be able to read that kind of stuff in a magazine rather than on a screen sometimes.

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## Jim Nollman

I also recommend any of the digital interfaces by RME. I recently upgraded my recording system onto an i7 imac with 16 gb of memory. It came with thunderbolt connectors, although, unfortunately, there are not yet any interfaces on the market with this exceedingly fast connection technology. I will probably buy an RME interface as soon as they release one with thunderbolt. I expect it to happen within the next 6 months, so you may keep that in mind as well.

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## Spruce

TapeOp just rules...
It takes me longer to read that magazine than any other, _by far_...
I've learned so much from those folks...

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## frshwtrbob

This forum is full of helpful people that have a lot of experience (pros and semi-pros) to back up their opinions and is a nice addition to the knowledge that TapeOp offers ...if you don't already know of it.  

http://www.3daudioinc.co/3db/index.php?

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## Shelby Eicher

I like the peluso r14. It is a great mic for mandolin. Nice and warm but still present. I also like the Neuman KM84. I will pair the 84 with a beyer m160. That's very nice. I have also used an AKG 414 B-ULS with success on the mandolin. The 184s are a bit too bright for me.

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## Spruce

> I will pair the 84 with a beyer m160.


How do you set those up?

I had good luck with a KM84 paired with a RCA 77DX once, with the 84 pointed to where the neck meets the body, and the 77 behind my hand (BION)....
The ribbon was like adding woofy-woodiness to the 84 track...
Gotta try that again....

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## Mandosummers

This has turned into a great thread for me.  I've searched the web for this type of information but what I find is most always stuff from other genres of music.  The responses and advice here come from people who are into acoustic instrument recording... Great information!  Thanks to everyone who has responded so far.  The "clipilator" link posted by Don Grieser is wonderful!  (Wish they had audio interfaces on there).  I checked out the mic clips on that site and the Peluso R14 Shelby listed above is really nice.  Don Julin suggested the Octava MK012 as a good inexpensive mic, and it sounds great too.  TapeOP is a great resource I never knew existed.  I hope this thread keeps going.

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## frshwtrbob

The thing that I try to remember is that some mics 'flatter' or exaggerate certain frequencies and some mics do not. Color or brightness/darkness is sometimes used to describe the result of the exaggeration. 
Looking at the microphones frequency chart can help you see what it hears and exaggerates. Take it w/ a grain of salt though because it's usually a plus or minus 3dB average. 
If you want/need your source (instrument and/or vocal) to have more 'sparkle' in the higher frequencies then pick a mic that has bumps in the upper range.
Using a mic that doesn't have many bumps anywhere in the chart usually means that it has a flat response and, depending on placement, of course, it will give you a 'what you hear is what you get' recording.
I have a 1947 J-45 that sounds great in the room but is a little too boomy in the low end when recorded so I use a Josephson C-42 to flatter it's highs whereas, my nephews Martin D-35 sounds better using the more flat Sure SM-81 but I wouldn't hesitate to use the C-42 if I wanted to have it 'slice thru' the other instruments in the mix. 
Some say that a picture is worth a thousand words, so I hope these help anyone interested.

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## Brent Hutto

I've been looking for a mic whose response has a big dip corresponding to the wrong notes. That would be the most flattering for my playing!

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## Perry

> Lately I've moved to a small rack stuffed with outboard preamps (Great River and AEA TRP), feeding a Tascam DR-680 six-channel field recorder. That's a rig I'm very happy with, for recording "live" in studio or for location gigs.


The Tascam unit looks interesting. I'm interested in quality "live" recording in a stand alone unit. Four inputs would be enough but more would be better. Not interested in messing with a computer...I do enough of that.

Is this Tascam unit the way to go? How are the internal pre-amps? Good enough?

How easy is to get the the files off?

Does it record in MP3 format?

Does it record 4 different tracks that can mixed later? Or is it recording to a two track stereo file "live"?

Thanks for any info

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## foldedpath

> The Tascam unit looks interesting. I'm interested in quality "live" recording in a stand alone unit. Four inputs would be enough but more would be better. Not interested in messing with a computer...I do enough of that.
> 
> Is this Tascam unit the way to go? How are the internal pre-amps? Good enough?


It's a sub-$1,000 unit that's compact and can optionally run on batteries, so you're getting chip preamps with the DR-680. They're not quite as clear or colored (when I want it) as my outboard preamps at $1,000+ a channel, but those outboard pres are larger, heavier, and need AC power. So it's a compromise, but they still sound very good to my ears. I've compared them to the preamps in the two mic channels of my RME Fireface 400 interface, which is an older design, and I think these pres are at least as good, and maybe a hair better.

About the only reservation I'd have about recommending the preamp section, is if you're planning on running low-sensitivity ribbon mics on quiet sources. That's where the huge amount of clean gain in my outboard Great River and AEA TRP preamps is nice to have. With condenser mics, there's plenty of gain.




> How easy is to get the the files off?


Dead easy. I just pull the little flashcard and take it upstairs to my edit computer, and transfer the files. It automatically names files with an ID for date of recording, take number, and channel number. A recent session I did looks like this, for just single take of a song (not #107 of the day, that's sequential from when I got the recorder a little while ago):

111025_107_mono1.wav
111025_107_mono2.wav
111025_107_mono3.wav
111025_107_mono4.wav
111025_107_mono5.wav
111025_107_mono6.wav




> Does it record in MP3 format?


Yep, direct to MP3 up to 320kbps, or WAV files up to 96 kHz. Oddly, it's missing an option for 88.2 kHz WAV files, but that's probably because these field recorders are aimed more at the film/video crowd. I do most recordings in 44.1 kHz broadcast WAV format, so it doesn't affect me personally.




> Does it record 4 different tracks that can mixed later? Or is it recording to a two track stereo file "live"?


It will record up to six files as individual mono recordings, or you can set it to gang them as three stereo files (I think, I just use the multiple mono option). It will also record an internal submix of the six channels as an additional stereo mix on channels 7 and 8, if you want. If you have a device that outputs S/PDIF or AES digital, you can record that on channels 7 and 8 for a full 8 tracks. Another interesting thing is you can gang two of these things together as a 12-track recorder, if you ever need the expansion.

Note: one important thing to know, is that it's not a "multitrack studio" type recorder that will do overdubs on existing tracks. It's strictly a capture recorder. When I need to do overdubs, I switch over to my laptop-based system. Although, I do very little of that these days. I like the simplicity of a basic capture system, and getting everyone together in the room to play live with no overdubs. To correct mistakes, I just make sure we have enough takes on each song, so I can do a little micro-surgery in combining material from different takes, if needed. 

Let me know if you have any other questions about the DR-680. Frankly, if I had the budget I'd use a Sound Devices 788T instead, just for the mechanical build quality. But that's out of my current price range (the 788T streets at about $6,000 USD, and the Nagra version is closer to $10k). The DR-680 is inexpensive enough that I can afford to think about eventually picking up a second one as backup, or channel expansion.

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## Mandosummers

So I have a question... I will soon have enought money to either:

Buy an RME Babyface, or...
buy a ribbon mic like the Peluso R14

As noted above I have a Presonus Firestudio Project and a AT 4051 pencil condenser and a Rode NT1a.  

What does the forum think?

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## Don Grieser

Be aware that you will need a lot of clean quiet gain to use the ribbon. Turning up the gain on your Firestudio preamps all the way or most of the way (which is probably what you will need to do) will add hiss to your recordings.

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## frshwtrbob

If you can get 65dB of gain out of your existing pre-amp interface --get one of these
(http://www.tritonaudio.com/index.php...d=17&Itemid=33) - 
At the level of dollars that you can spend, I believe you will hear and enjoy more of a difference if you record w/ the ribbon mic AND to boot, you'll then be able to experiment with it and the combination of the mics you now have.
The interface difference that YOU can actually hear doesn't really become super apparent until you go into the upper thousands.

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## Mandosummers

> If you can get 65dB of gain out of your existing pre-amp interface --get one of these
> (http://www.tritonaudio.com/index.php...d=17&Itemid=33) - 
> At the level of dollars that you can spend, I believe you will hear and enjoy more of a difference if you record w/ the ribbon mic AND to boot, you'll then be able to experiment with it and the combination of the mics you now have.
> The interface difference that YOU can actually hear doesn't really become super apparent until you go into the upper thousands.


I have a Grace M101 preamp... Would that drive a ribbon mic well?

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## frshwtrbob

YES your pre-amp will be fine...


Ranked Third in Best Mic Preamp under $1000
  By Bestcovery.com Expert - Sep 30, 2010 - Editorial review - Bestcovery
The Grace M101 has the all the same quality's you have come to expect in professional gear without the price tag. *With its unique ribbon Mic mode* as well as 48v option, hi-z input an impressive list of high quality components the M101 is a formidable Mic pre at its price point.

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## Mandosummers

Thanks.... any suggestions for a ribbion other than the Pelsuo r14... Anything more affordable?

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## Don Grieser

I forgot about the Grace.  :Redface:

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## Mandosummers

Strike my question about mics above.  I can see that topic had been covered here in the forum before in detail... sorry.  Back on recording, several years back when I first started fooling with digital recording I had a tower PC and bought an Maudio 2496 PCI soundcard.  I remember being really happy with the quality of recordings I made.  Then I moved to a laptop and other interfaces like an madio two channel something (it was terrible).  Then I got the presonus firestudio project.  It was somewhat better.  I think I'm chasing what I had in the beginning?  Anyone out there use PCI soundcards?  I may just  go back to that.  I only need two channels anyway.

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## Shelby Eicher

The Beyer M160 is a good ribbon for mandolin as well, a tad bright in a good way. It's not as stand alone as the others. The Royer 121 is very similar to the Peluso r14. The reviews of the two seemed to favor the Peluso and they are more reasonably priced. I've got a RCA 77DX and a RCA 74b but don't care for them on mandolin that much. The Oktava 012 is decent. I had mine upgraded by Joly. It made it sound fuller on both ends. They are similar to the Neumann 84s but not quite as natural sounding. For acoustic guitar the go to mic is the Neumann KM85. It works every time and sits in the mix without trying. The AKG 414B-ULS is an all around mic. You can use it on about everything.

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## Perry

foldedpath:

Thanks for the detailed response; much appreciated. The DR-680 looks like a good enough unit for some casual live recording.

I used to record live to an IMAC using an MAudio Duo interface and PEAK software. PEAK was really cool software. But the whole computer/driver thing was finicky at best and not always reliable.

I like the idea of a standalone unit and the removable media card feature is nice.

Stupid question: is the reason they don't have (6) XLR inputs simply for space?

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## foldedpath

> is the reason they don't have (6) XLR inputs simply for space?


Yeah, I think they were just aiming for a certain size, and this saves space. For the film/video crowd, a couple of the inputs would likely be 1/4" plugs anyway, from wireless receivers. You can still get phantom power on channels 5 and 6, with a cable where one end terminates in a tip-ring-sleeve 1/4" plug. Kind of a screwy design, but it works.

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## Verne Andru

Anyone looking for a great deal on a large capsule and a pencil condenser mic set might want to check Musicians Friends Stupid Deal of the Day [Dec 3] - they have an MXL set up for $60. Not cork-sniffer stuff, but more than enough for us mere mortals getting going.

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## rynando

> Anyone looking for a great deal on a large capsule and a pencil condenser mic set might want to check Musicians Friends Stupid Deal of the Day [Dec 3] - they have an MXL set up for $60. Not cork-sniffer stuff, but more than enough for us mere mortals getting going.


The 990 in that package is technically a "medium-diaphragm" condenser.  I've used both those mics and even at $60 they are no bargain.  In the used market that two-mic kit pops up for $20 - 30, often.

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## JeffD

> I've been looking for a mic whose response has a big dip corresponding to the wrong notes. That would be the most flattering for my playing!


 :Laughing:  

That goes up there with "Can I have some more talent in the monitor?"

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## thejamdolinplayer

Check out the Zoom R16, its a little big to just leave sit out and hooked up to your computer but it is a good value for the money. It's a stand alone recorder or an interface and what I like best about it is that its portable you can take it into a room or place where you think you can get the best recording, record your files and then upload the files to the computer for editing. And the key thing is that it lines up the files where they need to be when you overdub instead of lining them all back at 0 like some do and then you have to shift them back into place. Also be sure to check out Blues new "Spark" mic.

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## scapier

Black Lion Audio does some pretty cool stuff, and Advance Audio Microphones makes a C12 clone that is my favourite mandolin mic.  John Hardy Pre's all the way.  and Pro Tools has the best audio editing tools.

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## Don Grieser

Here's a relatively new small condenser endorsed by Ronnie McCoury with sound samples of acoustic guitar and mandolin. It sounds like a pretty dark mic, and they should have had Ronnie record the mandolin sample.

http://www.miktekaudio.com/products/...ncil-condenser

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## kkmm

I have two recordings setup at home.

The first one is the Lambda USB with 6 inputs, come with the Cubase software to allow me recording multi tracks. So far, I can only record instruments with this setup, recording voice requires really good microphone and mic-preamp which I don't have.

The second one is my Yamaha Tyros3 Arranger keyboard, it has a built in two (WAV) track recorder. I use to create my backing music as 16-track MIDI, then play it to record on one WAV track. Plug my instrument or mic to the mic/instrument (stereo) inputs, then recover the second track. This Tyros has the cleanest recording result, no static, no humming whatsoever, the result is pristine as CD. I only need to export it to my laptop to add fade-in at the start , cut off the long delay before / after the song and maybe re-adjust the volume of the song. The built-in effect and equalizer are also marvellous. I had AE mandolin which has the E string volume very tiny compare to other strings, when plugged in to this Tyros, all strings have nearly equal volume, making live playing (with pre-recorded backing music) and recording really easy. Of course, I bring out my Tyros3 to a live gig to play mostly with keyboard and only few songs on mandolin with this setup.

The defiencies about Tyros3 dual track recording are: 
1) must bounce the two tracks to one before exporting it out for PC editing / CD-burning / MP3-conversion as it only export the MAIN track. The bounce time is the time to play the entire song.
2) "export" also take long time (about 1/3 playing time) due to the slow HDD access and the slow transfer rate to the USB flash drive (still USB 1.0 !!!)

I am planning to record from my Tyros main outputs directly to the Lambda (connected to laptop) and have a true multi-track recording instead of just 2 track. This will eliminate the two "deficiencies" mentioned above and add in a lot more editing flexibilities.

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## Beanzy

Still using my trusty & reliable flight cased Roland VS1880 with good mics and outboard pre-amps for any recording 'favours' I do. It still gets the job done, and is a lot quieter in a mobile setting than having PC based solutions.

In work it's Studer Vista5 which is great at the desk and the noisy bits live elsewhere.

I'd heartily recommend people buy their chosen set-up but run it from a remote interface, and don't run any CRT monitors in the same room.

Nicest mic I've tried yet for the mandolin up close and detailed is the bog standard Sony ECM77 (used by studio presenters all over) Push the capsule through a hole poked in a blind grommit and push that into the hole of the 'f'. An alternative mounting is to twist an elastic band and stretch it between the pointy bits of the 'f' hole, then slip the capsule in between the twists. 
Lovely clear uncoloured sound.

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## Avi Ziv

> I am currently using an RME UFX....


Hi Pete - I'm curious if you use the UFX in stand-alone mode (no computer), recording directly to a USB stick/drive since I understand it's possible. Is this a viable alternative to carrying a laptop for location recording?

Thanks

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## Mandosummers

Ok, here is a draft copy of a tune I've been kicking around that I and some friends may clean up and take to a studio.  Although its rough, it is a pretty good examle of what I am struggling with in recording my mando.  Notice how sharp and digital the notes sound?  You will have to listen with a good set of headphones.  And no, its most definitely not the mando.  It is a killer mando with big fat lows and nice round crystaline highs. The mando was close mic'ed with an Audio Technica 4051, a Grace M101 pre, going into a Presonus Firestudio Project. 


http://www.soundclick.com/player/sin...=11270837&q=hi

What would help more, a new mic, pre, or interface with better AD conversion?  Also what do others do to make the bass standout.  I can hear it fine on my Mackie monitors but in my car no matter how hot I make it, the bass dissappears.  What kind of EQ adjustments do some of you recommend.  Also for MP3 conversion I use Cool Edit Pro.  Any better conversion suggestions (obviously, the mp3 conversion kills quality).

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## Pete Martin

> Hi Pete - I'm curious if you use the UFX in stand-alone mode (no computer), recording directly to a USB stick/drive since I understand it's possible. Is this a viable alternative to carrying a laptop for location recording?
> 
> Thanks


Nope, using it as my home recording unit.  Don't know how it would work in other situations, sorry.

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## Don Grieser

MandoSummers, the way I understand it, here's the level of importance of the recording chain.

Source (the sound in the room)>microphones (and placement of the microphones)>preamp>interface (converters/resolution/recording medium)>mixing (eq and processing)>mastering.

Your sample doesn't sound bad to me. I do hear some extra high end overtones: do you have the strings dampened between the bridge and tailpiece and between the nut and tuners? A ribbon mic will definitely attenuate some of that. What's the room like where you record (dimensions/surfaces)? Where are you in the room? What distance is the mic (you say close mic'ed) from the mandolin and where is it aimed? My guess would be the neck/body joint with it within 6" or so. What other mic positions have you tried? We know your mic/pre/interface. Any other processing in mixing/mastering?

Are you using compression on the bass? There's lots of low end on the bass, but I don't hear much attack/pluck of the string.

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## rynando

> What would help more, a new mic, pre, or interface with better AD conversion?


Microphone.  You mentioned you may be going into a studio to record?  It might be worth your time to book a couple extra hours of studio time to audition a bunch of decent microphones.  They'll have all the "usual suspects" and you'll be able to hear them in the best possible acoustic setting.

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## Mandosummers

Don and Rynando,
Thanks for taking the time to respond.  I do have the strings damped, and my room is my bedroom so it is pretty dead (carpeted and curtained) and probably not the best.  The studio is a ways off so I think based on what everyone is suggesting I will try and pick up a Peluso R14.  It sounds pretty warm in the clips I have heard.  Thanks again!

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## bobbyburns

Mandosummers, what are your monitors. Maybe the problem with what you are hearing isn't what you are recording with, but how you are listening to it? Check your email.

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## Ben Milne

I was close to being happy, with just my monitoring to be sorted out, but now that Avid has allowed 'tools to go native, my list has to include a better interface too.
That and getting it out of storage(tick) and setup in a nice environment...

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## Mandosummers

Hey Bobby.... I have a set of Mackie MR5's.  I've been thinking about connecting a set of cheap speakers also.  The bass on the Mackies is so full it ends up being to low in the final mix when I play it back on other speakers or ear buds etc.

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## Mandosummers

For those of you who responded to this thread a while back I thought I would post an update.  If you'll remember I was struggling with the harsh digital sound of my home recordings.  Well for one thing I found a setting buried in my DAW that had defaulted back to 16 bit! Duh!  24 bit sounds much better.  But in the meantime I also bought a couple of pieces of gear that have helped too.  On Don Julin's recommedation I bought a Golded Age Pre 73.  Its a lot warmer than the Grace M101.  Also, (and I could almost start a new thread on this) I bought a Neumann KM184.  I listened to the Clipilator samples on the Zen Audio site and thought, heck, I like the KM184 better than the KM84 everyone raves about! So I bought a used one on Ebay.  Wow!  So much more open and alive than the AT 4051b I was using.  Nice full rich midrange.  True they do have a lively high end, but theres a lot going on up there with overtones and air that I was totally missing before.  The overtones add to the warmth and character of the mids and make things sound so much more natural.  I'd rather have the highs and have to dial it back with EQ than not have them at all?  I am perplexed why there are so many people bashing these on the Internet?  What am I missing here?

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## Brent Hutto

I'm a novice at this stuff but I think if you do not have a "warm" preamp and are not willing to dial back the high end with EQ there are a lot of sources where the KM184 can sound pretty piercing up top. 

That quibble aside is bound to be a very clean and detailed sounding SDC and I'm not surprised you love it. It matches up well with the rest of your chain and your recording preferences and Internet-review nastiness aside it's a quality piece of gear. But just think how much better you'd sound with a KM84 instead! (Just kidding).

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## foldedpath

> I am perplexed why there are so many people bashing these on the Internet?  What am I missing here?


It's a long-established tradition to bash the KM184 on the Internet. Just get used to it. 
 :Wink: 

Here's the background, as I understand it (and I own two KM184's that I like very much, so there's probably some bias here). The KM184 replaced the original KM84 at a time when the big pro studios were still recording to tape. It's possible (although not confirmed AFAIK) that Neumann designed that little 2db rise around 10k to provide a little extra brightness on tape, which doesn't have the same high frequency extension we have with current digital recording methods. 

Shortly thereafter, digital audio started to arrive on the scene. Suddenly people were using ultra-clean (and some might say "sterile") first and second generation A/D converters and preamps with these mics. The slightly bright tail end of the KM184 got conflated with the sound of the first few generations of A/D converters and low-end prosumer recording gear, which often had a somewhat harsh and edgy sound regardless of what mic was used. 

The overall quality of A/D conversion is much better now, even in low-cost consumer recording gear, and we now have a wide choice of preamps in different flavors of neutral, transparent, "warm" (I hate that word), and so on. When the KM184 is used with a high quality A/D converter, through a preamp that's well-matched to the mic, I think it's one of the best small condensers out there. You do have to watch out for that little 10k lift on some sources, but (as I mentioned recently on another forum) the mic has an ability to capture subtle details that I don't hear in many other mics. 

I don't think you *have* to use it with a colored preamp to get the best results, but that said, I do tend to use it more with my Great River MP-2NV than with any other preamp I have available. For the sources that don't benefit from the 10k lift, I use an EQ setting in my DAW software that flattens it out with a reverse curve. It doesn't turn it into a KM84, and theoretically you shouldn't use mics that require this sort of thing. But for the few sources where I want to hear a little less brightness, but not as much damping in the highs as say, a ribbon mic, it works for me.

I think it's a great workhorse mic for both recording and live performance. The next jump to a "better" small condenser is a big one, into the $1500 to $2500 USD range for things like the Sennheiser 8040 or the small condenser mics from DPA and Schoeps. 

P.S. I've also been using a pair of Mojave MA100 tube small condensers lately, which are an interesting alternative to the KM184 at about the same price point. And of course there are others in this mid-priced range, like the Gefell M300, the Peluso P28, and probably others I'm not remembering. One nice thing about the KM184 though, is that it's such an industry standard that you can always find them used in decent condition, and they retain value better on resale than most other "non-vintage," current production small condenser mics.

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## JeffD

This thread scares me. For every three posts there are four opinions. 

I have a solution for those of us who play more than we record - find a friend who is into it and  knows what he or she is doing, buy that friend a pizza and ask to be recorded.


There just seems so much to learn, its really its own avocation. 

Question:

What do you experienced recording folks think of this as a starting place for me?

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## Kip Carter

Jeff I agree... I have a friend that has spent an insane amount of money on gear for just this task so if my meager recording tools do not suffice I will just let him show off his toys.... win win!
Kip...

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## JeffD

> Jeff I agree... I have a friend that has spent an insane amount of money on gear for just this task so if my meager recording tools do not suffice I will just let him show off his toys.... win win!
> Kip...



Its the same reason I don't own a snow blower. I have neighbors with giant snow tossers that love to help me out. I trade them. I make my fameous lentil soup or my tomato bacon parmagiana soup for them, and they clean the drive for me.

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## Kip Carter

:Smile:  And there is peace on earth!
Kip...

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## foldedpath

Jeff, I haven't read it, but judging from the table of contents on Amazon, that "for Dummies" book looks okay as an introduction. It has some stuff you don't need like Midi integration, but the basic info looks okay (again, just judging from TOC). If anyone else has recommendations for introductory books, please post them. 

Home recording _can_ be scary and ultra expensive, but it doesn't have to be. It depends on what you're shooting for. There's a huge range between grabbing snapshot recordings of rehearsals or song ideas, and aiming for the quality you hear on a commercial recording from an A-list artist like Chris Thile. 

I think it's actually harder for many people to know what that range is, these days. Fewer people are listening on good stereo systems now, compared to the golden age of vinyl and CD's. Instead they're listening on cheap PC speakers and iPod ear buds to low bitrate MP3's. Or worse, YouTube videos with horribly compressed audio. On the mass distribution level, we're actually moving _backwards_ from the heyday of CD's.

That's both a blessing and a curse, if you're aiming for quality audio in a home recording. It's easier to sound "good enough," but harder to know how many people can hear any hard-won improvements you've made in your recordings.

Anyway, with a minimal investment in gear, and a little time spent in learning how to use it, you can get 70% or 80% of the way towards what a commercial recording sounds like on a good stereo system. The reason why some of us go deeper down the rabbit hole is that reaching the last 20% takes a lot more work. And pushing towards that goal can be gratifying in itself, like any hobby activity.
 :Smile:

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## Jim Nollman

I agree. With a slightly greater investment — one smooooth mic, an assortment of plugins and the time to master the learning curve — I'd say it's not difficult to  attain 90% to 100%. 

I spent some time recently in a megabucks studio, and noticed new technology, that will soon trickle down to all of us working just as hard in our "project studios".  This studio had recently spent a lot of money on digital mics, which avoid the standard audio chain that necessarily includes A/D converters. The head engineer LOVES his digital Neumann mics which, which as you might guess, are off the chart in price. 

The other new thing is that tube "warmth" and tape "saturation" have been successfully bottled into a  number of new inexpensive plugins. This means you can add these qualities  after recording, and also dial in any number of blends from the subtle to the ridiculous. I use one of these plugins quite a lot, (OZONE 4) and I really like the way it alters the harmonic structure of certain types of  signals, including mandolin. I'd compare it with storing whisky in sherry casks for ten years. I do like the taste, but I like the whisky better than the sherry. 

There's another issue as well, which mostly goes unspoken here, but seems below the surface of this thread. I have recorded a lot of mandolin in my little home studio, including stuff you can buy at all the CD retail outlets. I've learned that, there's really only two things I need in order to record myself at home, as well as any million dollar studio.  1) assemble the few functional pieces needed to fulfill an essential recording chain. And learn to use these pieces as one piece.  2) I don't start editing until I have a recording on disk without obvious mistakes in it. I'm not talking about warmth, or the ultimate room, or about missed notes or even some small amount of poor intonation; but about performance. Every recording needs to convey the message that there's a player here who knows how to use his instrument well enough to say whatever it is he needs to say. 

Once I put this recorded "message" through my editing process, the result should sound as good as what the million dollar studio can do — given the same performance.  I'd probably reach the same conclusion, even if the best  commercial recordings were not at 16 bit, not to mention the fidelity-killing compression that goes into mp3s.

These days, if I get a good performance, and a few notes are not in perfect time, or are poorly intonated, I really don't care, since fixing such glitches is a just a few clicks of the mouse. Yes, I do fix them. And I add delay, EQ, tape saturation, like a chef adds spice, to make the well-miked performance sound as good as any studio.

The current tools used for recording suggest something aesthetic as well, that virtuosity in performance is, these days, different than virtuosity on a recording. The recording process is, finally, a much more level playing field than a concert. I suspect that many of us who take the time to build a project studio feel that we have just as much to say as all the mandolin virtuosos we gladly pay to hear perform. A home studio is the best tool to make sure the world hears your message.

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## Ben Milne

Anyone struggling with containing the top end in SDCs such as the KM184 should try a ribbon mic (AEA etc) or a nice dynamic like a Beyer M201 or Sennheiser 441(if budget allows).  
Or both!  
I am loving recording MS with an R92 and 441 at the moment. I used an M201 to capture a friend's mandolin the other day it sounded fantastic, this is a bit of a sleeper mic IMO, rather cheap price for a very nice dynamic.

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## Beanzy

Step away from the desk and drop the Mic.

I went down the tech rather than playing road after university just because of the situation JeffD outlines.

If you get into sound recording and kit, then that's a whole other discipline and one which will consume a huge amount of time. 
If you're going to do it to a high level then it's just like any other skilled craft.
In my opinion, unless you don't need the time for your music, practice, performing. writing etc. then you need to hit the quick and simple solutions without going into the minutiae of how one good mic, pre-amp, effect may offer different nuances over another.
If you care that much about those subtleties you're better off spending a bit more time on what you do well to earn the money to pay/bribe/cajole a pro or high level enthusiast to get what you want. 

Asking on here is a great way to cut to a good enough solution for what most people need and at quite a high level equipment wise. But the remaining skills, ear-training and disciplines are a real apprenticeship which takes time. Giving up that time from your music could hurt the very thing you most care about.

However if you do go down the road of becoming a sound engineer / op then it's probably best to begin by doing classes combined with assisting at recordings and gigs to get the hands-on experience. You can get loads from the books, but there's something about being in a space and hearing for yourself that really makes it stick.

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## JeffD

I have a Tascam DR-2 digital tune sucker. I use it mostly at jams to record tunes I want to learn. I use it at home for practice, just to play back so I hear what I need to work on. And to practice dealing with mike fright. (I found out how big an issue this is when recording at a studeo a year or so ago.)

I think if I ever want a quality recording I will PM one of you folks and come visit. 

If I ever want to be a star, I will apply for better genetics.

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## Barry Wilson

When I took the studio engineering course, we did a project with producer Hal Beckett. He saw someone tweaking the eq and flipped. "move the microphone don't use eq... eq in digital recording is just adding something to cause noise so only use it as a last resort". sure stuck in my head.

I took pics of my garage studio. it's getting there. I just need to add a divider wall now and soundproofing.

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## jschall84

Interesting thread. Ill share my gear list and my experience for getting great results. For mics, I have a AT3035, AT2020, Peavey PVM480, AKG CK91, and a CK92. I have a Steinberg MI4 interface for on the go, and a Lexicon Omega for home (soon to be replaced by an Akai EIE pro). I use Cubase 4. I also use Waves plugins, which are amazing. 

Now, my experience for the bast tone. USE THE ROOM. Every room has different sounds in different areas. Play your instrument while slowly walking around. You will find that a certain spot, turned a certain way will sound awesome. My home studio has deep stucco walls, which makes for a nice lively sound without creating too many echos or phase problems. I also have movable panels and thick blankets when needed. The room is also funky shaped. It has a weird corner and a weird angled door, all of which help the liveliness of the room. I found that I can get a super warm tone by using the room, even with a cheap mic, like the AT2020. It's all about experimenting!

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## Jim Nollman

> Step away from the desk and drop the Mic.


The choice need not be so severe, although I do agree it's certainly not akin to walking and chewing gum at the same time. 

I think we all agree that the initial learning curve is significant. However, there are signs to heed, to tell you that, finally, you do play well enough to make it totally worthwhile to record yourself as well as you play. One clear sign on this path, is recognizing the futility of trying to stay abreast of all the latest gear. A lightbulb goes off to assure you that some snazzy piece of highly touted gear on the horizon is not what you need to improve your recording capability. It's the same itch as continually looking for another and then another mandolin to help "improve" your playing.   

It's helpful to find someone who's already mastered home recording, and who can suggest a few other unexpected pieces you ought to consider buying, to turn out good recordings. If you are a budding player/recordist, it helps a lot if your advisor is also a player/recordist 

As an aside, one thing I like about the Cafe, is that you get to explore the whole Gestalt: the building of instruments, the history of the instrument, all the different genres, different styles of performing, interviews with top players, the many goals of musicianship, and the capability to record yourself well enough to be happy with the result. In fact, this site is full of successful player/recordists, who have made admirable recordings, some of which are among the most interesting stuff happening on mandolin right now. You won't find this stuff very easily outside the Cafe.

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