# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Tuned in Fifths

## Sheephead Shawn

Please explain what is meant by this, I've played guitar for 30 years and Mando now about 6 years; delve into a lot of theory, scales, pentatonic, arpeggios etc.......... and have looked at the circle of fifth's;

Don't laugh at me sometimes not seeing the forest through the trees, but why do I hear folks say a mandolin is tuned in fifth's.

Lots of intellectuals on this forum and many will think funny, but I've wondered for a while.

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ottawa_adam

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## Kevin Stueve

G to D is a fifth,   D to A is a fifth,  A to E is a fifth,   as opposed to standard guitar tuning E to A  is a fourth,  A to D is a fourth,  D to G is a fourth,  G to B is 3rd,  B to E is a 4th.  So what that means is guitar chord shapes are not necessarily moveable across the fret board.   Where as mandolin chords are always moveable across the fret board.

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B381, 

Mark Gunter, 

ottawa_adam, 

Zigeuner

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## Dave Sheets

It's from the position of the notes in a scale.  The space between any two notes is called an interval, and all the intervals have names.

If we start with the G on a mandolin, a G major scale is G A B C D E F# G,  so the spacing between the G and D string on a mandolin is called a 5th.  If you start with a D scale, the 5th is an A.    If you start with an A the 5th is an E.  The strings are always a fifth apart.  If you start with any note, and then move up to the 5th note above it in a major scale, that's an interval of a 5th.

Guitars are usually tuned in fourths (E to A,  A to D, D to G,  then B to E)  plus one major 3rd interval B-E,   which makes some chord forms easier.

Mandolins mirror the tuning of violins, violas and cellos, which all have strings tuned in fifths.   The string bass came from a different family of instruments, it's tuned in 4ths, much like a guitar.

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Explorer, 

Zigeuner

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## Kevin Stueve

> It's from the position of the notes in a scale.  The space between any two notes is called an interval, and all the intervals have names.
> 
> If we start with the G on a mandolin, a G major scale is G A B C D E F# G,  so the spacing between the G and D string on a mandolin is called a 5th.  If you start with a D scale, the 5th is an A.    If you start with an A the 5th is an E.  The strings are always a fifth apart.  If you start with any note, and then move up to the 5th note above it in a major scale, that's an interval of a 5th.
> 
> Guitars are usually tuned in fourths (E to A,  A to D, D to G,  then B to E)  plus one major 3rd interval B-E,   which makes some chord forms easier.
> 
> Mandolins mirror the tuning of violins, violas and cellos, which all have strings tuned in fifths.   The string bass came from a different family of instruments, it's tuned in 4ths, much like a guitar.


almost

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Mark Gunter

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## Sheephead Shawn

Freaking perfect, I didn't know what I already knew.................... Kevin, mind walking me through the circle of fifths in the same way.
Both responses much appreciated.

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Carl23

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## CarlM

> The string bass came from a different family of instruments, it's tuned in 4ths, much like a guitar.


I believe the reason the string bass and guitar are tuned in fourths and the others in fifths is scale length.  If a bass were tuned in fifths it would be an immensely long distance to move up and down one string before you reached the next making playing difficult.  Guitar fourth tuning leaves about a normal hand span to the next string just as a mandolin does with fifths tuning.  The fourths tuning does make it easier to assign one finger per fret when playing scales though.

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FredK, 

Jess L.

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## Beanzy

As far as I know the 4ths thing is found back in the day of the renaissance lutenist and vihuela players. 
Im sure some of our lute folks here can chip in proper detail, but as far as I understand it, they mostly needed to play across the fretboard rather than so much along it. 
Even on the relatively short scale tenor lutes this was a vital component in their playing which often aims at multiple voices & complex plucking patterns, with pinched courses sounding simultaneously across unplucked courses between. 
To achieve this they had some pretty complex interval combinations even going for 6ths between some courses.
Get a load of the tunings listed on the Lute Soc. page

As for why throwing in the 3rd with the b works, Id love a solid explanation, as Ive only had sketchy explanations in the past.

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## Tom Wright

My scenario explaining 4ths vs 5ths is that when the bowed-instrument players wanted more power, the Italian violin-family designs offered an instrument with a more arched bridge but fewer strings, only 4. In exchange for more power, they tuned in 5ths to have a larger melodic range which was the goal for the baroque ensembles and their show-off music. In order to apply more bow pressure the bridge can't be as flat as the multi-string viols like d'amore.

4ths tuning is much more convenient for a solo player, but the 5ths tuning offers wide range for orchestrations, as long as other instruments can provide the harmony.

Guitars have the odd interval so that the outer strings are the same note name, making broad chords more convenient.

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## JeffD

I suppose the reason it is a circle is that if you go up the different keys in fifths, you eventually come back to where you started.

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Carl23

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## catmandu2

> As for why throwing in the 3rd with the b works, I’d love a solid explanation, as I’ve only had sketchy explanations in the past.


Unable to give a historical/etiological explanation, but practically speaking - the closer intervals render denser harmonies (within chord forms), as others have pointed out.




> ...
> 
> 4ths tuning is much more convenient for a solo player, but the 5ths tuning offers wide range for orchestrations, as long as other instruments can provide the harmony.


Perhaps nowhere is this more exemplary than in the case of (four-stringed) banjos: plectrum - par excellence for solo; tenor -orchestral/ensemblist tool..

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## David L

As has been said, having one third on the guitar allows for more handy chord shapes. Lute tuning was in fourths with the third in the middle, so had an F# instead of G. A little more symmetrical, but not as handy for favorite keys.

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## trmptr

The answers you got are _right on_. Bass was one of my main instruments in college so I figured I'd pitch in with a little more info and hopefully help you solidify your understanding of the answers you got. 

Historians believe the bass is from the *viol family*, like the viola da gamba. 

Scale is definitely a factor. Upright bassists usually don't even cover "one finger per fret" back by the nut. So to get from D to G (a fourth) it's open, 1, 4, open (try that in the air and notice you're only using your outside two fingers to get from one string to another). Whereas even the fairly large cello you can play open, 1, 3, 4 so the next pitch is open and you've got it tuned D to A (a fifth). You're _skipping frets_ between fingers on your mandolin!

I'll try to help you understand the circle of fifths. It's mostly just for remembering/understanding key signatures. Each time you move clockwise (up a fifth) you add a sharp to the key signature. Moving counterclockwise (down a fifth, which is the same as up a fourth so people usually call that moving by fourths) you add a flat. Play some chords in either direction _(do it right now)_ and you might feel that moving clockwise (by fifths) you are adding excitement whereas moving counterclockwise (by fourths) it sounds like it's resolving. Here's an example of each.

In the first movement of most symphonies composers play a theme, then play a second theme up a fifth (one key clockwise), show off a bunch by weaving around ideas from those themes, then move back to the original key (counterclockwise) to play those themes again and sound resolved. Establish theme, create excitement, resolve. And part of that process is moving by a fifth to create excitement then by a fourth to create resolution. 

The bridge to I Got Rhythm is all fourths. The chords all move counterclockwise. Play around in the key of Bb until your ear is centered there. Then play a couple bars each of D, G, C, F, and end on Bb. Notice how each chord sounds like it's resolving until you get a final resolution back to the home key. Listen to some recordings of the song and you'll see what I mean. 

In folk music when people string together sets of tunes they often move one or the other direction around that circle for the same effects. Hopefully that helps! I actually just came to this forum to see if people tune the fifths beatless, lol! I found this thread, then searched to find a bunch of great advice on finding a beginner instrument. My wife just decided to try mandolin so I grabbed a cheap one from work. I want to get her a decent one and the advice here echoes what the only shop in our metro that knew anything at all about mandolin suggested. They said to order an Eastman md305 and they'd do a nice setup on it, which appears to be a respected beginner model here. In fact, this forum is full of people that know what they're talking about and are sharing great info with beginners, both of which are rare on the internet!

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Christine Robins, 

Eldon Dennis

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## Mark Gunter

> It's mostly just for remembering/understanding key signatures.


Not to nitpick, but this one statement is pretty misleading. In truth, the circle of fifths contains more info than -- and is useful for -- much more than folk realize until they really begin to take note. What it's "mostly just for" will depend on how the individual musician uses it, and what information he needs from it. It's certainly for identifying the keys and key signatures, and all else you've written about is true, but there's so much more. For instance, seeing at a glance the entire diatonic harmony of a chosen key! These days, that's the most important use in my own musical journey for the COF.

All I'm saying is that the COF can be "mostly used for" remembering/understanding harmonic relationships that go beyond simply key signatures. For example, the circle diagram below illustrates how the entire diatonic harmony structure of a major key is represented at a glance by the COF:



Where C is the major key, this slice of the pie, with its 6 sections, indicates the Root at top, the vi below it, the IV at left, the ii below it, the V at right, the iii below it, and just to the right of the three would be the vii, which of course would be a diminished chord.

Thus, it instantly names the diatonic harmony of C major:

I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - vii*

C - Dm - Em - F - G - Am - Bdim

That's a great lot of information to garner _instantly_ from glancing at a compact chart.

Again, I'm not writing this to nitpick your excellent overview, just to illustrate that the COF is invaluable and not to be dismissed as mostly just useful for understanding key signatures.

BTW, trmptr, welcome to the forum! I hope your wife enjoys the mandolin.

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Full Circle, 

GrooverMcTube, 

John Kelly, 

John MacPhee

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## Beanzy

Following on from Mark’s point, I though I might as well share these aids I did to help visualising the relationship:







As different people think in different ways one may click when learning.

It’s a wicked quick way to save writing out or needing chord sheets if you know the circle, the formula for the style you’re in, or the number sequence. No more sweating about transpositions or ‘will I get the wrong chord?’ if you can relate these to the circle.

Just a quick edit to say that the resources I found most use when getting what the mandolin 5th tuning is about, were “Mandolin Masterclass” by Brad Laird and “Guide To Making Any Chord Anywhere for fifths tuned instruments” by Frank Geiger

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John Kelly, 

John MacPhee, 

Mark Gunter

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## jaycat

It never ceases to amaze and amuse when someone claims that guitar chord shapes are not moveable up and down the neck... these are called barre chords, folks (among other shapes). The so-called "cowboy chords" are not moveable, but neither are open mandolin chords.

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## catmandu2

> It never ceases to amaze and amuse when someone claims that guitar chord shapes are not moveable up and down the neck... these are called barre chords, folks (among other shapes). The so-called "cowboy chords" are not moveable, but neither are open mandolin chords.


(Sigh)

This kind of talk only serves to further confuse the beginner.

ALL chord shapes are movable - on guitar, mndln, or any other stringed instrument.

So called "open"/cowboy chords are merely lower position chord forms with the nut taking the place of a "barring" finger, usually taking advantage of a couple of open strings.  It's as movable as any other chord form.

With the guitar's six strings, you tend to have an open string or two to account for.  The approach - so commonly employed by learners of beginning with a few basic lower position forms, then learning "barre chords" - probably does more to impede a complete understanding of the fingerboard, intervallic relations, and chord theory than just about anything else - as evidenced here.

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DougC, 

Mark Gunter, 

rodarbal

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## pops1

> I believe the reason the string bass and guitar are tuned in fourths and the others in fifths is scale length.  If a bass were tuned in fifths it would be an immensely long distance to move up and down one string before you reached the next making playing difficult.  Guitar fourth tuning leaves about a normal hand span to the next string just as a mandolin does with fifths tuning.  The fourths tuning does make it easier to assign one finger per fret when playing scales though.


I have known bass players who have strung their bass in 5th's and said they would never go back. Play classical and jazz.

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## Jim Garber

> I believe the reason the string bass and guitar are tuned in fourths and the others in fifths is scale length.  If a bass were tuned in fifths it would be an immensely long distance to move up and down one string before you reached the next making playing difficult.


Fine then why are the uke family instruments which are much shorter scale tuned 4th-3rd-4th similar to the top 4 strings of a guitar?

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Mark Gunter

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## Mark Gunter

> It never ceases to amaze and amuse when someone claims that guitar chord shapes are not moveable up and down the neck... these are called barre chords, folks (among other shapes). The so-called "cowboy chords" are not moveable, but neither are open mandolin chords.


And another sigh here ... Like you (and prolly catmandu2 and others) I also took issue with that quote, I move chords around all over the guitar neck as well ... but like catmandu2, I don't limit myself to making the "E" shape (which is also "F" shape), "A" shape and "Am" shape barre chords, but also the "C" shape as a barre chord (which by the way also becomes the "D" shape) and bunches of other four- to six-string movable chords (like the C7 shape, for example), and on and on.

There's not much limit to chord voicings on a guitar, which should be obvious with six strings to work with, and shapes can be moved around for sure. The reason I don't think it bears much notice here is because (1) mandolin forum, and (2) _movable shapes on mandolin are inherently different_ than movable shapes on guitar because due to consistent 5ths tuning the shapes can be moved both horizontally and vertically on mandolin -- a different situation on guitar where the _inconsistent_ 4ths plus tuning means that shapes can't consistently be moved _across strings_ without changing the character.

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## Kevin Stueve

> And another sigh here ... Like you (and prolly catmandu2 and others) I also took issue with that quote, I move chords around all over the guitar neck as well ... but like catmandu2, I don't limit myself to making the "E" shape (which is also "F" shape), "A" shape and "Am" shape barre chords, but also the "C" shape as a barre chord (which by the way also becomes the "D" shape) and bunches of other four- to six-string movable chords (like the C7 shape, for example), and on and on.
> 
> There's not much limit to chord voicings on a guitar, which should be obvious with six strings to work with, and shapes can be moved around for sure. The reason I don't think it bears much notice here is because (1) mandolin forum, and (2) _movable shapes on mandolin are inherently different_ than movable shapes on guitar because due to consistent 5ths tuning the shapes can be moved both horizontally and vertically on mandolin -- a different situation on guitar where the _inconsistent_ 4ths plus tuning means that shapes can't consistently be moved _across strings_ without changing the character.


I've played guitar for 40 year. I know all about barre chords and gasp power5 chords that you can move up and down the neck.  That is why I was careful to point out that mandolin chord shapes are more easily moveable ACROSS the neck.  Sigh all you want jaycat.

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Mark Gunter

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## Kevin Stueve

> It never ceases to amaze and amuse when someone claims that guitar chord shapes are not moveable up and down the neck... these are called barre chords, folks (among other shapes). The so-called "cowboy chords" are not moveable, but neither are open mandolin chords.


I've played guitar for 40 year. I know all about barre chords and gasp power5 chords that you can move up and down the neck. That is why I was careful to point out that mandolin chord shapes are more easily moveable ACROSS the neck. Sigh all you want jaycat.

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## jaycat

I guess I'm outvoted. Still, I (and I would wager most grassers) don't often see a guitarist barring an open G, C or D shape. Maybe I just don't get out enough...

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## Mark Gunter

> I guess I'm outvoted. Still, I (and I would wager most grassers) don't often see a guitarist barring an open G, C or D shape. Maybe I just don't get out enough...


Hey, not to worry, catmandu2 had a good point to make about your statement re: cowboy chords and he made it. Part of the problem seems to be that some of you guys automatically assume everything about music in the forum relates to _bluegrass players_ and only bluegrass players. As Kevin said, moving chord _shapes_ and scale _shapes_ ACROSS a guitar neck is more complicated ...

Edit to say: Go ahead and make a barre chord on guitar using the open C shape, and you'll see that the "D" shape triad is automatically included. Not that it matters, it's not the same as moving mandolin chord shapes across the fingerboard (as opposed to up and down the fingerboard).

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## catmandu2

Oh we're talking BG - sorry I missed that.  Sorry for jumping all over jacat 

There's just a practical limit in terms of technique and the discrete limit of the nut that is evident - and prbly what jaycat was thinking of with his post.

Only that, this is horrid way to start/approach guitar (yet, prbly how most of us did it - which is a horrendous pedagogic device ... but sound good for a few songs? - you bet!)

But even before playing all your Keith Richards tunes with a 1/2 bar and a modified "C" shape, for ex, it's eminently useful for the beginner to *conceptualize* this way.  

If you played jazz guitar, or plectrum banjo, or...you'd just have a different concept.  We just apply, or divide up/extract what we want/need from guitar, it's all cool.  Only that - do know - it's ALL connected/relational, without real limits.

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Mark Gunter

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## Kevin Stueve

I didn't think of moving anything other than the E and A shape for years.  Then I went to a church music seminar and sat with a guitar player who showed me how he moved the D shape to get different chord voicings.  When I move a D shape it is often just using the the  DGBE strings or even the GBE strings only and I rarely go to the trouble since I play with a piano in the ensemble in church.

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## Mark Gunter

> We just apply, or divide up/extract what we want/need from guitar, it's all cool.  Only that - do know - it's ALL connected/relational, without real limits.


^^^ this

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## Sheephead Shawn

Gentlemen, I plan to print this and keep it with me for "digesting"; my Son teases me about seeing everything theoretically and by using the Nashville numbering system, as he is way more talented than me and just intuitively knows where to go and when (I've accepted this fact due to his younger age and more nimble mind, and partly because, just like he can never shoot a basketball like me or throw a football like me, he's just more talented than me musically).  
Even though this is the case, I delve into music theory a lot...………………….. why does the whole Circle of Fifth's seem to me like freakin' Organic Chemistry.

I'll study it, thanks again to all who responded, come to North Florida I'll take you fishing.

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## Dale Ludewig

There was a discussion recently here about this. There is an almost magical point where music theory and making it work come together. Once it's digested a bit, a whole lot of stuff comes together when you're playing, especially with other people and on tunes you don't know. 

Here's a link (I hope) to that thread:https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...ghlight=circle

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Mandobart

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## CarlM

The circle of fifths is fundamental to western music because the scale notes are generated by that circle.  It is tied to the physics and math that generated the tone.

It also created the voice leading as chords follow the circle creating tension and resolution.  Possibly a majority of jazz and ragtime songs have a circle of fifths as part of the chord progression.  Salty Dog, Don't Let Your Deal Go Down, Cannonball Rag, Sweet Georgia Brown, Ella Speed, Dear Old Dixie, Electric Chair Blues just to start.  Listen to a few of those and you will start to hear what the circle sounds like.

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## David Lewis

> Fine then why are the uke family instruments which are much shorter scale tuned 4th-3rd-4th similar to the top 4 strings of a guitar?


The uke is a little guitar, originally out of Portugal. So tuned the same. (In fact, the uke is the top four strings of the guitar from the fifith fret).

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## Phil Goodson

> .. why does the whole Circle of Fifth's seem to me like freakin' Organic Chemistry.
> .......


Shawn,
Things that made Circle of Fifths become more like a useful reality for me was learning the chord progressions for some of those old songs like:
"Five Foot Two, Eyes of Blue" and "Mr Sandman".   Maybe you have heard those songs sometime.

You can play those songs by rote memory of many many chords, *OR by remembering something like "jump from the 1 to the 3, and then follow the circle"*   Points of importance in many of those type songs also include the fact that the 1 chord often jumps to the 6 chord at some points in similar songs.

Next thing that may help remembering the "Circle" is seeing that if you use the *same shape* for each major chord you play (e.g.chop chord shape), play first chord on treble side (e.g. Bmaj), then simply move to its '4' chord,( same shape moved to the next larger courses of strings on same frets.)    

Then move *2 frets closer to the nut* and repeat the process.  Repeat this as long as you want to continue around the 'Circle'.
When you get to the nut, of course, you have to notice what chord you're playing so you can jump one octave higher on the neck to continue with the next chord.

I know that might sound a little confusing, but read it carefully and give it a try.  It might help a lot. :Smile:

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## Full Circle

Thank you for the best explanation I've ever seen on this topic. I've played guitar for years, and assumed it was just for people who read sheet music to tell the key by number of sharps etc. It is amazing how much using guitar tab exclusively has held me back from learning music theory.

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## JeffD

> Gentlemen, I plan to print this and keep it with me for "digesting"; my Son teases me about seeing everything theoretically and by using the Nashville numbering system, as he is way more talented than me and just intuitively knows where to go and when (I've accepted this fact due to his younger age and more nimble mind, and partly because, just like he can never shoot a basketball like me or throw a football like me, he's just more talented than me musically).  
> Even though this is the case, I delve into music theory a lot..... why does the whole Circle of Fifth's seem to me like freakin' Organic Chemistry.
> 
> I'll study it, thanks again to all who responded, come to North Florida I'll take you fishing.


Ill go fishing with you.  :Smile: 

The step I took is less intellectual. I learned chord shaped in groups of three. So I have a I IV V chord shape group. It is movable up the neck, and because it is a three finger chord it is movable across the neck. And what ever key things are in, I find where to place my I chord shape and just go to town, getting most of what I need. I have since figured out where most of the other chords i will need are in relation to the I chord shape, the 7ths, the minors etc., but it started not with memorizing the fret board, or memorizing the circle, or memorizing the Nashville number system, (which are all helpful and good ideas) but with finding three chord shapes I could switch between easily and move around to any key. I just wanted to cut to the chase and start playing.

I have since filled in a lot of the gaps, and through habit I can remember what I need to remember. But I didn't go after it like high school math homework.

The weakness of my approach is that I sometimes (used to be most of the time) don't know what key I am playing in. I mean the chords work where ever I start, and I start where it sounds good, and I am playing away, and did not stop to figure out or hear what key I am playing in. Not good.

But it is impossible to get started without missing something. Trying to get it all right leads to paralysis and looking around for the right way to learn is not the same as learning something and getting onnn-n-n-n with it.

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## mandroid

as you go around that circle  you #   another note in the scale..

conveniently G 1#, D 2#, A3#, E 4#  so when confronted with a songbook 

1- 4#  tells you what  Maj key it may be ...  

 backwards # sequence of BEAD Go Catch Fish..       :Whistling:

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## DougC

There are some remarkable videos out there explaining this stuff.  One way that made sense to me was in not using the circle at all, but 'working it out' by making a chart. (Sort of like making a multiplication table. ) 

But after frying my brain for a while I still had to pick up the mandolin and make it work.




Philphool has a good method there. Thanks Phil

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Phil Goodson

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## Kevin Stueve

> as you go around that circle  you #   another note in the scale..
> 
> conveniently G 1#, D 2#, A3#, E 4#  so when confronted with a songbook 
> 
> 1- 4#  tells you what  Maj key it may be ...  
> 
>  backwards # sequence of BEAD Go Catch Fish..


coming from trombone background I learned BEADGCF before I learned that as  4ths and before I learned FCGDAEB as fifths.    BEADGCF is the order notes are flatted in 
Key of F  Bflat
Key of Bb -- Bb and Eb
Key of Eb  --Bb,  Eb, Ab
Key of Ab -- Bb,  Eb, Ab, Db

etc.

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## Greg P. Stone

Good point about fifths giving more range. The six open strings of a guitar only cover three half steps more than the four open strings of the mandolin.

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## Phil Goodson

Here's a little pattern I made to help illustrate the pattern I described in post #31.
Not great, but it's kind of what I'm seeing in my brain as I play parts of the Circle.

E.g.  start with B, go to E, go to A, etc.......



Remember, this is using the SAME SHAPED CHORDS in all cases. And, of course, works starting at ANY fret.

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## DougC

> Here's a little pattern I made to help illustrate the pattern I described in post #31.
> Not great, but it's kind of what I'm seeing in my brain as I play parts of the Circle.
> 
> E.g.  start with B, go to E, go to A, etc.......
> 
> 
> 
> Remember, this is using the SAME SHAPED CHORDS in all cases. And, of course, works starting at ANY fret.



Good 'landmarks' to know. And there are position markers there! Mine are mother of pearl. Stating the obvious? (Nope, I'm pretty dense.) :Redface: 


Some people write the circle of 5ths backwards. So clockwise one sees the flat keys. It can be very handy that way. (It is all a matter of relationships in any case). Our trombone playing friend knows this. Right, Kevin?
I'll try to find one online...

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## Phil Goodson

The goal is not to 'write' the circle in a certain direction. The goal is to internalize the notes (chords) where they lie on the fingerboard.
To see them mentally whenever you need them and then just go to them without resorting to recalling the letters written around some Circle.
How to do this?   USE THEM!!!   Choose tunes or songs which use C of 5ths chord progressions and play them.  Soon you won't need to think about 'circles'.

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## ralph johansson

> (Sigh)
> 
> This kind of talk only serves to further confuse the beginner.
> 
> ALL chord shapes are movable - on guitar, mndln, or any other stringed instrument.
> 
> So called "open"/cowboy chords are merely lower position chord forms with the nut taking the place of a "barring" finger, usually taking advantage of a couple of open strings.  It's as movable as any other chord form.


"as movable as ..." -- when we speak of scale and chord forms as moveable we usually refer to the fingering, i.e.,  forms that can be transposed to higher positions *without change of fingering*. And, of course, many people (I among them) would have trouble fingering, e.g.,  the  cowboy G form cleanly in higher keys. But then we don't really need it.

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## catmandu2

> "as movable as ..." -- when we speak of scale and chord forms as moveable we usually refer to the fingering, i.e.,  forms that can be transposed to higher positions *without change of fingering*. And, of course, many people (I among them) would have trouble fingering, e.g.,  the  cowboy G form cleanly in higher keys. But then we don't really need it.


Made a short vid for you:




A big problem in guitar (and theoretical/technical) pedagogy is the casual "folk" approach to the instrument, that unfortunately is very popular and probably how 99% of guitar aspirers begin.  It does a monumental disservice to anyone aspiring to learn the instrument (in other idioms beyond folk-styles), as I've alluded in the preceding posts.

In other words, from the standpoint of a thorough or complete understanding of the instrument - to be able to apply theoretical/technical concepts to the instrument - the common basis of chordal  conceptualization with "open/cowboy" chords is _all wrong._

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## Greg P. Stone

I came back to this thread today because I was thinking about this topic and BOOM, my understanding went up a couple of levels. I've searched the net to select a circle of fifths, printed out copies and will be attaching them to my case, the book I'm working in, etc.

I'm just a couple weeks into learning mandolin and the epiphany I had today, by virtue of the kind posters in this thread, will be having baby epiphanies for some time to come.

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## catmandu2

Ha, as I read this I see I must have felt strongly about it this morning  :Smile: 

It's just a different perspective - I'm not knocking "idiomatic"/folk guitar or anything.  It's just that so often people aren't exposed to approaches on guitar that enable the tools to understand or exploit more of the instrument, as I've heard folks state on innumerable occasion.

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Bill Findley, 

Mark Gunter

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## Mandobart

> I believe the reason the string bass and guitar are tuned in fourths and the others in fifths is scale length.  If a bass were tuned in fifths it would be an immensely long distance to move up and down one string before you reached the next making playing difficult.  Guitar fourth tuning leaves about a normal hand span to the next string just as a mandolin does with fifths tuning.  The fourths tuning does make it easier to assign one finger per fret when playing scales though.


Then how do you 'splain a 22" OM or 26" mandocello tuned in fifths?  The "immensely long distance" is very manageable with the right technique.

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## Mark Gunter

> Ha, as I read this I see I must have felt strongly about it this morning 
> 
> It's just a different perspective - I'm not knocking "idiomatic"/folk guitar or anything.  It's just that so often people aren't exposed to approaches on guitar that enable the tools to understand or exploit more of the instrument, as I've heard folks state on innumerable occasion.


 :Laughing: 

Thanks for the clarification! Loved your quick "show & tell" video, and understood your point and your frustration, but "big problem" and "all wrong" ... ??? Feeling strongly, for sure!

It's probably how 99% of us began, and it was just a beginning, LOL. I learned painstakingly to change on time between three chords to play "On Top Of Old Smokey" at age twelve, and no regrets. Got to start _somewhere._

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catmandu2

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## Steve Ostrander

Years ago, before web sites had key transposers, I had an actual circle of fifths that I used for transposing. It had a circle within a circle that you turned to transpose. I suggest taking a look at it, it may make things clearer to see them in graphic form.

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## catmandu2

> Thanks for the clarification! Loved your quick "show & tell" video, and understood your point and your frustration, but "big problem" and "all wrong" ... ??? Feeling strongly, for sure!


Well, THAT part of it, I DO indeed feel so - big impediment, and all wrong (for styles other than folk, etc).  Talking pedagogy here.  (For the record, it's not how classical pedagogy is typically undertaken).  I would hazard that perhaps 90% of folks with a guitar don't know how those "folk/cowboy" chords interrelate with the rest of the fingerboard.  And likely don't move past those few chords.  We hear it all the time.  This is a problem in pedagogy.

It was the wording I chose about "being able to apply technical/theoretical concepts" that I felt was unnecessarily strong.  Indeed, one needn't neccesarily possess a meta perspective to apply technique and theory, probably..

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## sbhikes

This kind of stuff always makes my head hurt. How can anybody think about numbers and math and counting while they play? I guess that is why I'm just mediocre.

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## Phil Goodson

> This kind of stuff always makes my head hurt. How can anybody think about numbers and math and counting while they play? I guess that is why I'm just mediocre.


Well... maybe.  
But it's more likely that it's from not putting enough time and effort into practicing the RIGHT things.   At least that's what I'm claiming as my excuse. :Frown: 

(It's really not that hard to 'be aware' that you're changing from the "one chord" to the "four chord", etc. or to just keep a steady rhythm.  Not a lot of mathematics involved.)

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## Mandoplumb

> This kind of stuff always makes my head hurt. How can anybody think about numbers and math and counting while they play? I guess that is why I'm just mediocre.


I'm just mediocre is why I need these explanations. I don't really think about all this when I play but I need to have some idea of why certain things work in order to use them. The greatest natural musician I knew, my dad, just played what was in his head. He knew nothing about theory or why chords were built the way they are, he just played. I dare say that half the musicians we admire  don't worry about all this stuff that "makes my head hurt" like dad, they just play.

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## ralph johansson

> Made a short vid for you:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A big problem in guitar (and theoretical/technical) pedagogy is the casual "folk" approach to the instrument, that unfortunately is very popular and probably how 99% of guitar aspirers begin.  It does a monumental disservice to anyone aspiring to learn the instrument (in other idioms beyond folk-styles), as I've alluded in the preceding posts.
> 
> In other words, from the standpoint of a thorough or complete understanding of the instrument - to be able to apply theoretical/technical concepts to the instrument - the common basis of chordal  conceptualization with "open/cowboy" chords is _all wrong._


Not sure what your video illustrates except some awkward fingerings of certain chords. If I were to use the "cowboy" C (followed by, e.g., a C7 or C#dim on the four inner strings)  I would certainly not forgo the use of my strongest and most independent finger. 

Also, I said that some people, including me, would have trouble fingering the full G form up the neck, and you do nothing to disprove that - my hand  didn't grow while watching your video. Finally, I said that we don't need such chords at all. A useful rule of the thumb is to avoid chords with more than four notes and to avoid a full barre. Such big chords simply don't connect well.

As for pedagogy I doubt your statistics. If a beginner apporaches a jazz guitarist for lessons to build his competence in this idiom would the latter get him started on "cowboy" chords (where I grew up they were known as Salvation Army chords)? 

I never had any instruction on the guitar. I realize in hindsight that a good teacher could have speeded my learning process by  one or two years, but a poor teacher may have delayed it by just as much. To me at least the important thing was to begin with individual notes and melodies in various positions before dealing with chords. I simply figured that "learning" chords without knowing the notes they contain, how they connect, how they relate to the melody etc. was completely useless.

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## Steve Ostrander

> I'm just mediocre is why I need these explanations. I don't really think about all this when I play but I need to have some idea of why certain things work in order to use them. The greatest natural musician I knew, my dad, just played what was in his head. He knew nothing about theory or why chords were built the way they are, he just played. I dare say that half the musicians we admire  don't worry about all this stuff that "makes my head hurt" like dad, they just play.


I think they know. They may not have studied it, and they may not read music, but most pros play so often and practice so much that they cant help but pick up some theory, even on their own. Honestly, I dont think you can play at that level without knowing it.

I played cornet in middle school band for three years. I wasnt very good, but I learned time signatures, meter, notes and scales, melody and harmony. I dont remember learning the circle of fifths, but later, when I played in rock bands, we would transpose using the circle, and it made sense to me.

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## catmandu2

> Not sure what your video illustrates...


Merely to demonstrate that all chords are "moveable" - even the ones that people are conditioned into thinking are not (as evidenced by the suggestions on this thread).




> And, of course, many people (I among them) would have trouble fingering, e.g.,  the  cowboy G form cleanly in higher keys.


I was not attempting to demonstrate anything but this point.  However...  




> Also, I said that some people, including me, would have trouble fingering the full G form up the neck, and you do nothing to disprove that - my hand didn't grow while watching your video.


In a comprehensive pedagogic system (classical, jazz, etc) "fingerings" and formations are incidental to sound/harmony/composition - promoting such hand "growth."  These "awkward" forms, as you state, are common and necessary in these idioms.  Seen from a non-classical view, for example, I'm sure that classical fingerings do indeed appear "awkward" - they certainly were for me when I was first learning.  For a classical guitarist, however, these and any number of "awkward" fingerings are de rigeuer - as complex fingerings are found in the music.

*I've tried to be succinct.  But elaborating a bit more:  an arduous technical pedagogic system (e.g., "classical") teaches optimal use of fingers.  It's more like piano in this regard - where each finger is deployed equally.  Therefore, requiring technical facility (ability to handle challenging fingerings, etc).  It will also tend to encourage a broader view of fingerboard/fingering possibilities, compositional capacities, etc.

I won't belabor the rest of it.  I think it's axiomatic.

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## catmandu2

Or I could be wrong about everything, I'm sure I'm abnormal in more than one way!  - I'm just putting my feeling about it.  It's been fun, in fact, to think about guitar again.  I hope more people study it, stick with it, etc.

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## ralph johansson

> Merely to demonstrate that all chords are "moveable" - even the ones that people are conditioned into thinking are not (as evidenced by the suggestions on this thread).
> 
> 
> 
> I was not attempting to demonstrate anything but this point.  However...  
> 
> 
> 
> In a comprehensive pedagogic system (classical, jazz, etc) "fingerings" and formations are incidental to sound/harmony/composition - promoting such hand "growth."  These "awkward" forms, as you state, are common and necessary in these idioms.  Seen from a non-classical view, for example, I'm sure that classical fingerings do indeed appear "awkward" - they certainly were for me when I was first learning.  For a classical guitarist, however, these and any number of "awkward" fingerings are de rigeuer - as complex fingerings are found in the music.
> ...


I don't know much about classical guitar but I do believe that chords with more than four notes pose technical challenges. But are you really suggesting that the chord forms you are illustrating have any place in jazz at all? I'm not really a jazz player, but a few tips I absorbed as a beginner, close to 62 years ago,   is to 1) avoid chords with more than four notes, 2)  minimize the use of open strings (no big deal since much of my practice material was in keys like Bb and Eb -- arguably the most common sheet music keys) 3) avoid full barre chords and 4) avoid dense voicings on the bass strings. E.g., in rooted harmony you need a gap between the two lowest notes for a clear bass line. And in jazz you often omit the root.

 Regardless of genre I would say that the cowboy G form  you begin with  is a completely dispensible chord, with three g notes and two b's. The most obvious note to omit, for clarity, is the low B (the A string is easily muted by the fretting finger on the E string): And I don't think we need the high g' either.  And what remains connects very smoothly with other chords, both in higher positions and in open. And, of course, the ideal fingering and voicing of any chord is determined by what comes before and after it.

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## catmandu2

Ya, playing out of a full barre like that is common in classical and flamenco.   In formal "jazz" ya not so much but like paco delucia "jazz" and "jazzes" around the world..  composers and improvisors say all kinds of weird and unconventional things.  Any way it's just a view of the fingerboard and another of zillions of possibilities.

*I'm going to delete the vid - it occurs to me now that it could be viewed 
 I'm, like, advocating moving these shapes over playing inversions!

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## Mark Gunter

It's a shame to lose that video from the discussion. I thought it was a good, concrete illustration of the point intended, not belabored, very brief, and exemplified dexterity and good rhythmic qualities, none of which is bad to see in an example video.

Anyway, just wanted to mention an option that folk can use at YouTube. If you post a video that you mean to use only in a discussion and don't intend for general public consumption, you can post it at YouTube as an "unlisted" video. That will keep it out of searches and promos, while allowing access via direct URL links for purposes of discussion.

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## catmandu2

Thanks Mark.  Ya I didnt know that was an option.

I'd deleted another vid - hdgfl demo - when I realized it would come up in a tune title search; it was only meant to demo a new fiddle here..

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## ralph johansson

> Ya, playing out of a full barre like that is common in classical and flamenco.   In formal "jazz" ya not so much but like paco delucia "jazz" and "jazzes" around the world..  composers and improvisors say all kinds of weird and unconventional things.  Any way it's just a view of the fingerboard and another of zillions of possibilities.
> 
> *I'm going to delete the vid - it occurs to me now that it could be viewed 
>  I'm, like, advocating moving these shapes over playing inversions!


And then, of course,  you also have the rasgueado ---  perhaps not that compatible with steel strings (no, I never tried it).

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## JeffD

> ... are not moveable, but neither are open mandolin chords.


Well.... if all your open strings are on one side of the neck, then I consider them moveable. Both up the neck and across the neck actually. There is no rule that all four courses have to be hit with every strum.

Heck I even strum a double stop.

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