# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  Prime Vibe test

## Big Joe

Prime Vibe was kind enough to send one of their tone enhancing products for me to test on several instruments for them.  I am going to do so as soon as I can.  It is similar to the Tone Rite product in some ways, except the Prime Vibe must be used with the instrument laying down.  Then the product itself is an 8 watt amplifier that utilizes two speakers that lay on the top of the instrument while it plays music that comes from an MP3 player that you provide and attach to the Prime Vibe.

I have not used the Prime Vibe yet, so my comments are not related to the function or success of the system itself.  My reflection at this moment is that it is a bit of a pain to use right out of the box.  While nicely packaged, you have to provide the MP3 player, which I don't have.  I have to get one someplace.  While this is not a complicated issue in general, it requires a shopping trip to buy this item and the cord to attach it to the Prime Vibe.  Then, even more time consuming, I have to load whatever music I want in the MP3.  That too is not terribly complicated, but it is time consuming.  

So, before I can test the product I have to buy something else that I would otherwise not buy, take time I don't have to load the MP3 and then proceed with the test.  This does not reflect on the quality of the product as much as the pre marketing.  It may be better to package it with an inexpensive MP3, even if the price were a little more out front.  It would certainly save time for the user.

I am interested in using the product.  I am open minded about it and am only reporting my initial opinion to date.  The people behind Prime Vibe are very nice and trying very hard to get their product on the market.  I will hopefully get an MP3 tomorrow and see if I can begin the experiment in the next couple days.  I will post my results on the Prime Vibe just as I did with the Tone Rite.  Just in case anyone thinks otherwise, I have no financial interest in either of these products and I don't make a single sale one way or the other on the outcome of these tests.  It is just a service to the manufacturer and the mandolin public.  I do not sell either of these products and have never met the people involved that I know of.  Thank you.

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## warh0rn

I haven't bought either product but I found your last post very informative. I look forward to reading the review on this product. Thanks for taking the time to do this for the mandolin community.

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## foldedpath

As far as I can tell from the web site info, it's just a 3.5mm stereo miniplug input that can work with any audio source. You could hook it up to the headphone output of your computer's sound card, or a portable CD player, or your home stereo. Just get whatever cheap adapter cable you need from Radio Shack, if you don't have the cables on hand.

P.S. I'm still _extremely_ skeptical about this sort of thing, but the audio hookup doesn't look that complicated, and you shouldn't need a dedicated MP3 player.

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## Big Joe

It's not a complicated hookup by any means.  I just do not have anything in the shop that I can hook the device to.  My Iphone has an Ipod in it, but I can't leave that hooked to the device because I need it with me where I am.  I don't have anything else there that will work either.  We do have a computer, but it is not loaded with music because it is usually loaded with too many other things  :Smile:  .  

I had to get something to load music so I could hook to the device.  That meant going shopping for something.  I have lots of stuff that could work if I wanted to use it for that, but it is in use elsewhere for other things.  In addition, I could not take the Prime Vibe home, hook it to my home stereo, and leave the guitar laying in the middle of the floor.  Not only would my grandkids (I am raising two of them) probably step on the guitar, but my wife would see that it was quickly implanted where it was not designed to fit if I left it in the middle of the floor.  I felt that might disqualify the home stereo from being used  :Smile:  .  

I now have an MP3 (a small Ipod Shuffle so I can use Itunes where I have a couple thousand songs already loaded).  I will use it on the Prime Vibe.  Besides, this gave me a really good excuse to get an MP3 player......

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## Big Joe

Well, the process has started.  I had to go buy an MP3 player that would work with my Itunes since I have tons of music recorded.  The local electronics store was helpful in telling me what I needed and helped me find a relatively inexpensive Ipod Shuffle.  It is small and was not terribly expensive.  I also like Apple products because they just work.

I finally got it to the shop today and hooked everything up and got it ready to go.  It is not hard to set up, but is a bit of time involved.  It is like hooking a stereo up.  You have to hook the speaker wires to the speakers, then the wire to the source, then get it plugged into a wall socket.  Again, not hard or complicated, but more so than its competition.  It now is operating and I have it hooked up to a "The Loar" LM400 A model.  I got this mandolin early this week and set it up and put on a CA bridge, built a pickguard for it, and shaved the finish off the back of the neck.  This mandolin sounds incredible, and plays wonderfully.  I have been really impressed with this mandolin.  I set it up this way because my intention is to keep it for myself.  I don't know that I would say it needed anything because it is darned good as is, but if you are going to run a test, this is a way to see if there really will be any improvement.

Now for my initial thoughts.  This is not related to how effective it may be or its quality in any way, shape, or manner.  It is merely my initial observations of the product.  This is subject to change at any point  :Smile:  .

The product simply appears to be a mini- stereo that is essentially 2 speakers with a rubber cushion that sits on top of the instrument.  The "head" module has the inputs and a single volume knob.  You can increase the volume until you feel the instrument vibrate.  Unfortunately, you also hear the music quite loud and it is not that clear since it is coming through the rubber mounts and the instrument itself.  It is a bit annoying.  If you like poor quality stereo songs it may be ok.  I have turned the volume down to where it is not quite so irritating, but is getting louder as time passes.  Is this because the wood is responding better?  I dont' know.  

In a comparison with the Tone Rite the things that are mostly different are the way you have to use them.  The tone rite you take out of the box, plug it in to the wall, and put it on the strings of the instrument.  It works whether the instrument hangs, is on a stand, or flat.  It works by vibrating the strings and the body through the movement of the strings and bridge.  It is easy to configure and use and requires no outside source for driving the mechanism.  

The Prime Vibe is a bit different in the way it works.  It ONLY works on the instrument laying on its back.  In addition, you have to have an outside source to provide the sound for the mechanism.  It only sits on the top of the instrument and is not attached to the strings, and does not directly vibrate the strings or the bridge.  The "speakers" just sit on the top and vibrate the top.   

If I were to chose right now, without giving the Prime Vibe a fair chance, it would probably not be my first choice.  It is a little less expensive then the Tone Rite, but considering you have to provide and outside source for the sound, it may not be.  If you already have an MP3 player it would be fine.  If you don't, then the cost does go up.  I do NOT want this to be read as negative to Prime Vibe, these are only preliminary thoughts and meant to be nothing more.  I do want to see what the outcome of the experiment will be before giving any real estimate of its value.  I can only give the information that is before me and my reaction to the materials.  The workmanship appears to be very good and the quality quite nice.  If you have space to use it then it is very easy to use once it is setup.  

I will report after it has been on the instrument for a bit and then from time to time during the experiment.  You may consider this a subjective test and it will have the advantage or disadvantage of having the other product tested first.  It does come nicely packaged and in attractive packaging.  Now we'll see how it works  :Smile:  .

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## lenf12

Hi Joe,

Does the manufacturer recommend any particular type of music for each type of instrument? Would Led Zep's "Whole Lotta Love" be appropriate for a mandolin? Just curious.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## Big Joe

Hey Len... They don't say, but it would certainly give a bit of tension from the beats per minute  :Smile:  .

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## Chuck Naill

Thanks Joe for giving this product an evaluation. I am going be interested in reading your observations.

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## Markus

Joe, do you have any concern with the finish while using this product?  Figure any material in contact for many hours (hundred or more I figure) is a potential risk.

You have a wealth of experience there (I do not) so I would ask.  Other products vibrate strings I change ... I can't change my mandolin's top.

Thanks for the review, I appreciate your contributions greatly especially as you have tried other similar products and thus can compare between them (as best one can on something subjective like this).

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## primeVibe

> ...
> I finally got it to the shop today and hooked everything up and got it ready to go.  It is not hard to set up, but is a bit of time involved.  It is like hooking a stereo up.  You have to hook the speaker wires to the speakers, then the wire to the source, then get it plugged into a wall socket.  Again, not hard or complicated, but more so than its competition.  It now is operating and I have it hooked up to a "The Loar" LM400 A model.  I got this mandolin early this week and set it up and put on a CA bridge, built a pickguard for it, and shaved the finish off the back of the neck.  This mandolin sounds incredible, and plays wonderfully.  I have been really impressed with this mandolin.  I set it up this way because my intention is to keep it for myself.  I don't know that I would say it needed anything because it is darned good as is, but if you are going to run a test, this is a way to see if there really will be any improvement.


I could not be happier with the above choice.  primeVibe's effect on good sounding and well seasoned instruments was unknown till we received feedback from the Gibson user in my signature below.  The user told me his guitar was played 1-3 hours/day for four years.  




> The product simply appears to be a mini- stereo that is essentially 2 speakers with a rubber cushion that sits on top of the instrument.


I recently wrote the following page to address the above point, which has come up a lot more times than I expected http://prime-vibe.com/product-info/s...e-transducers/




> You can increase the volume until you feel the instrument vibrate.  Unfortunately, you also hear the music quite loud


More from my keyboard on the above point http://prime-vibe.com/product-info/q...mevibe-in-use/




> and it is not that clear since it is coming through the rubber mounts and the instrument itself.


I must here admit of my extremely limited experience with mandolin, and hence I can not contradict the above.  I would be immensely indebted if Joe would describe the transducer locations, especially if they differ significantly from the instructions diagram.  I will say the lack of clarity is exactly the opposite of guitar user reports.  My personal experience is that the best program material is solo instrument matching that being seasoned.  If Joe would at some point try that I think and hope the sound quality would be satisfying.  

Please check carefully and listen if there is audible distortion.  If so, the volume is just too loud, and the solution is lower volume.  It is also very possible that the music source volume needs to be turned down because the source (MP3, whatever) is distorting the audio input to the primeVibe amp.  

Lastly, listen to the audio source plugged into headphones or some audio amp and make sure it sounds OK. 

A final test would be to try it on a guitar at the points recommended in the instructions.  If it still sounds that bad I'm starting to wonder if something is malfunctioning.        




> It is a bit annoying.  If you like poor quality stereo songs it may be ok.


 If the music is large scale and/or with deep bass, I'll respectfully suggest changing to solo mandolin or any solo string instrument.  And check the items I mention above.  

The above report is odd, unless the performance on mandolin is completely different than guitar, a result of the different size and architecture.     




> I have turned the volume down to where it is not quite so irritating, but is getting louder as time passes.Is this because the wood is responding better?  I dont' know.


 The transducers themselves will season when new, increasing output.  After a certain amount of time they will settle, I estimate less than 10 hours.  After that point, the difference you hear is the instrument's wood changing.  

I feel extremely confident that this point separates primeVibe from ToneRite.  The thread in my signature includes users of both TR and pV.  To a person, they proclaim results in mere single digit hours resulting from primeVibe's efficiency in its intended purpose, which is to vibrate the wood.   




> In a comparison with the Tone Rite the things that are mostly different are the way you have to use them.  The tone rite you take out of the box, plug it in to the wall, and put it on the strings of the instrument.  It works whether the instrument hangs, is on a stand, or flat.  It works by vibrating the strings and the body through the movement of the strings and bridge.  It is easy to configure and use and requires no outside source for driving the mechanism.


There is a growing consensus that TR wears the strings.  pV indeed vibrates the strings (damping them is one method to quiet operation), and one of our biggest believers thinks pV may also cause string wear.  If pV does wear the strings, I can't help but think it's less than TR.  TR directly vibrates the strings while pV has a sum total string contact of zero.    




> The Prime Vibe is a bit different in the way it works.  It ONLY works on the instrument laying on its back.  In addition, you have to have an outside source to provide the sound for the mechanism.


  That well summarizes what would likely be considered TR advantages.  Here's some opposing views http://prime-vibe.com/product-info/p...ur-competitor/  I'll add to this that with small instruments like mandolin and violin, pV will season two instruments simultaneously (one transducer per instrument), and I'd predict still with greater efficiency than TR.  Also, it might be loud, but pV can be setup to season up to 100 instruments simultaneously for moderate cost.

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## Big Joe

After the first day the results were somewhat different from what I had expected.  In the TR the first and most noticeable alteration was increased bass response and volume.  With the PV there was an increase in balance rather than a noticeable increase in bass response.  This mandolin had a very good bass response to begin with and I was surprised the tonal outcome after the first day was more balance.  This usually took about 3 days with the TR.  I did not detect an increase in volume overall, but the E and A courses were stronger.  On this particular instrument that is a good thing.  I don't know what the outcome will be over the next few days, but this is a positive thing on this mandolin.  I have a guitar to test it on after I am finished with the mandolin.  

As to the placement of the elements, they are just as shown in the manual.  I have 337 songs loaded on the MP3 and are from every genre of music imaginable.   I could have loaded it with just mandolin music, but I did not have the hours needed to go through all the songs to find instrument specific music.  In addition, the mandolin will be (and is used) used in a band environment with numerous other instruments and musical styles.  The response with these other instruments should be a plus.  I also want to test it just as most purchasers would do.  I don't think most would pick just mandolin instrumentals for the use at home.  I am trying to do as much of a real world test as I can, and since I am not the youngest gear head, I have to do what I can with what I have available and with the time I have to work with.

My comments are not meant as criticisms but rather just observations from my point of view.  While they are just my personal observations, I think these are things many would also think and addressing these issues up front can help the potential user make a good decision as to whether this may be the best choice for them.  If I were going to purchase the product for my own use I would rather have an MP3 included in the package even if the product were a bit more expensive.  For me, the time to find an MP3 and the fact I had to figure what to buy was more expensive than the difference in the products I've tested.  The ability to immediately open the box and begin using the product would be a great asset in my opinion.  I would have no problem loading the music, but obtaining an MP3 was a bit of a inconvenience.  It may well be that everyone else on the planet has them and this would not be an issue.  However, we are in the era of immediate gratification, which is why this product is produced in the first place.... to give us 40 years of playing in over a weeks time  :Smile:  .  Again, not criticizing, just observing.  Others may have a different opinion, but I said I would share my experience and opinions as the test goes on and that I will do.  Subjective?  Of course, but I can only report from my point of view since that is the only one I have  :Smile:  .

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## hank

Thank you Joe and James for your willingness to subject this product to unbiased real world testing by a very experienced ear.  I think most of us would agree that the ability to evaluate mandolin tone and response generally grows as more instruments are played and one matures as a player.  My question:  Is this a permanent change in the wood structure and settling in of the parts and pieces into a whole with a single application or is it more similar to an instrument warming up after play thus requiring continual reapplication of the device?  For those of us who are content with only one or two instruments wouldn't this be better purchased as a service during setup if the changes have lasting qualities?

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## primeVibe

> Thank you Joe and James for your willingness to subject this product to unbiased real world testing by a very experienced ear.


 I could not be more pleased with Joe's admirable, pleasant attitude and incredible honesty.  Debra and I are honored primeVibe is in his care.  His frankness is refreshing.    




> I think most of us would agree that the ability to evaluate mandolin tone and response generally grows as more instruments are played and one matures as a player.


+1




> My question:  Is this a permanent change in the wood structure and settling in of the parts and pieces into a whole with a single application or is it more similar to an instrument warming up after play thus requiring continual reapplication of the device?


 I refer readers to the Gibson link in my signature.  IIRC there are also relevant comments in the thread at the Forum link in my signature.  

For anyone considering taking the chance, note the 30 day return privilege (please return all the parts, the decal, instructions, little wire ties, etc.)  I dare not tempt fate (as a friend once warned me), but so far, knock on wood, no takers of about 60 kits delivered worldwide (we launched earlier in Asia, see great images at our webpage and Facebook of the Singapore Guitar Show and Shanghai Music Expo-largest in Asia).




> For those of us who are content with only one or two instruments wouldn't this be better purchased as a service during setup if the changes have lasting qualities?


 Our Asia rep (in Singapore) made this report concerning ToneRite: In Singapore it is practically mandatory to offer X number of hours of seasoning for any instrument brought in for service.  

Also, and I really must emphasize the significance of this: seasoning in Singapore is Da Bomb on "$100-$200" instruments!!!!!!!! (IIRC he said the owners are, as expected, normally younger persons.) 

Eric Schoenberg got his kit recently.  If anyone knows him, you are encouraged to call him so he can provide feedback ASAP.  Ditto Elderly Instruments (contact there is Doug McWhirter).  Call them and say: "Inquiring minds want to know" their opinions on primeVibe, and we want it now!  Brendan Jang also has kit at Tom Lee Canada for our friends north of the border in frigid climes similar to beautiful north Utah from whence I type.

I encourage readers to request their local music store to make space on their shelves to demonstrate primeVibe.  Customers can walk in, hear it, see it, and feel it vibrating the instrument, which is the best testimony possible.  We hear over and over again from dealers they just don't want to make physical shelf space.  Obviously this is self-serving, but this is a completely new market segment.  If the dealers don't make space and demonstrate it properly, they may be missing a golden opportunity to involve the customer in part of an interesting learning process.  The dealer makes profit reselling primeVibe, so it's reasonable for them to make some space on the shelf and let the customer experience the product in action.  Once salespeople bring in their own instrument and get a taste, they can pass along their experience.         

Debra and I wish you all a great Thanksgiving tomorrow!

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## primeVibe

> After the first day the results were somewhat different from what I had expected.  In the TR the first and most noticeable alteration was increased bass response and volume.  With the PV there was an increase in balance rather than a noticeable increase in bass response.  This mandolin had a very good bass response to begin with and I was surprised the tonal outcome after the first day was more balance.  This usually took about 3 days with the TR.  I did not detect an increase in volume overall, but the E and A courses were stronger.  On this particular instrument that is a good thing.  I don't know what the outcome will be over the next few days, but this is a positive thing on this mandolin.  I have a guitar to test it on after I am finished with the mandolin...


The above post explains why I expressed so much approval in Joe choosing his personal instrument to season.  

primeVibe is so powerful and efficient that it seasons even solid body guitar and bass.  A professional musician picked out my Tele for me (I know little about electric guitars, but am learning).  It sounded great to begin with and had immediately audible improvement after 24 hours.

The sooner professional luthiers experiment with primeVibe the sooner will they add audible value to their instruments, thus separating themselves from their closest competition.  If this sounds "predatory" or "mean" it's not meant to, it's just that competition is what spurns products on to the next level.

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## Big Joe

Hank... The answer to your question is not all that simple.  If you use your instrument regularly the effect will have a much longer lasting effect.  Using the tone enhancing device from time to time will help keep it opened up.  If you let it sit for a while unplayed and untreated, it will go back to sleep to some degree.  That is the case with instruments that are played heavily and then left unplayed for a long time.  When they are played again, they often open up much quicker, but can still go to sleep.  I notice this on the TR as well.  It took a few weeks, but it did go back to sleep a little.  I don't know that the PV will be any different in that regard.  There is no reason it should not function the same.  That is not the result of the machine, but the wood itself.  

The ideal is to have one of these for regular use from time to time if you do not play on a regular basis.  Many players do play a  LOT and it may not be as important, but for most, they do not play that much because there just is not enough time in the day.  For them, a device like either of these could be a good thing.

On a side note, the PV output is less distorted today.  Whether this is the speakers breaking in or the mandolin top opening I don't know.  Probably a bit of each.  I did not readjust my MP3 so everything else is the same.

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## Big Joe

Day two complete.  I took it and played it for about an hour this morning.  The A string was noticeably louder as was the D string, but not quite as much as the A.  The mandolin is still pretty well balanced, but the A string really stands out.  It will be interesting to see what happens from here.  I was not certain that there was much difference in volume after day 1, but today it is noticeable.  Not so much when you play it, but when you hear it from across the room.  It has really improved the projection.

While some of these changes are normal in a new mandolin, especially a hand carved top and back, but this seems to be quite a bit more than what I have seen in other mandolins.  While I still don't like the fact it has to be laid down rather than hung, it does seem to be improving areas of the mandolin.  The response on this instrument is different from the TR, which improved volume and bottom end response initially and then balance over the remaining time.  The TR was pretty consistent in its results in all the instruments I did use it on.  I will see what happens over the next few days with the PV and then switch it to a guitar to see what it does there as well.

My only concern at the moment is whether the rubber pads would react in a negative manner to some varnish finishes.  It does not seem to affect the nitro cellulose lacquer and I doubt it would affect poly, but the varnish may not be so friendly.  You could probably put a thin soft piece of cotton cloth under the pads for protection, but I would think that would stifle some of the effect of the vibration.

Anyway, we will report more as we have something to report.  So far some frustrations that can be easily solved for the most part, though I would prefer to be able to hang the instrument for increased vibration of the entire mandolin.  However, it does still work.  I do like the improvement in the A string and D string.  The other strings are also stronger, but not as noticeably.

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## Chuck Naill

I am wondering if a cradle could be built to allow the entire instrument to vibrate?

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## primeVibe

> I am wondering if a cradle could be built to allow the entire instrument to vibrate?


My dearest Chuck, 
Your wish is my command!  Sorry I took so long, I was in the shower...

Send your request to luthier Michael Cone, member The Guild of American Luthiers....this image from his seminal article in GAL Quarterly, Summer 2010, Issue #102.

Remember, "I'm here to help!"  Tell me this ain't the coolest primeVibe accessory on planet earth!

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## Chuck Naill

I can see how a piece of plywood, wooded dowels, and rubber or string could be used to "suspend" the instrument very inexpensivily. Great idea. Thank you for the response. 

Happy Thanksgiving.  :Smile: 

chuck :Chicken:

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## primeVibe

> Day two complete.  I took it and played it for about an hour this morning.  The A string was noticeably louder as was the D string, but not quite as much as the A.  The mandolin is still pretty well balanced, but the A string really stands out.  It will be interesting to see what happens from here.  I was not certain that there was much difference in volume after day 1, but today it is noticeable.  Not so much when you play it, but when you hear it from across the room.  It has really improved the projection...


I am simultaneously delighted and humbled to read the above.  With 40+ years in audio and music experience, it is hugely gratifying to read a completely independent professional luthier hear exactly what I hear.  In physics and engineering (see the landmark 1950's text book by Dr. Harry F. Olson, RCA Labs, "Music, Physics, and Engineering"...my wife's cousin's husband Don Rennels worked decades for GE setting up nuclear power plants worldwide...when Don saw Olson's book almost exactly 3 years ago he was blown away to find equations he could have used decades ago during his career...Don recently had a textbook published, expected to be a reference for years if not decades) the point Joe refers to is called "sound field", sometimes specified as "polar response", and/or "radiation pattern", also related to "sound intensity" (sound power per unit area).  

All instruments and sound sources project in three dimensions, hence the term "radiation pattern".  With no intent to place myself as the final arbiter of such things, I must state for the record that I believe Joe has a superlative ear for such things, which are sometimes a fine nuance for ears lacking such experience and training.  For instance, no one familiar with such nuance would ever in a million years depend on the random cheap consumer equipment (mics, etc), You Tube, and computer playback gear (such as Debra's $12/pr Wall Mart speakers, which actually are acceptable for the money, underline "for the money") to document the changes being discussed.  Sound field and radiation patterns being 3-d, they can hardly be documented with a mono mic.  MP3 technology is about equal to the analog cassette (invented for dictation, NOT music), and You Tube, with all due respect to its billions of fans, is just above dog droppings (excuse me) for audio fidelity.

Trained ears detect the above immediately.  It takes considerable care to document it on recordings.  For test purposes, you gotta get into the stuff Michale Cone is into to accurately and scientifically document it.  

I'd have to charge every customer for the above proof.  When my ears and Big Joe's hear it, why would I want to charge every non-believer to be convinced?  Frankly, it's too costly for the desired benefit of more sales (though a highly reliable source said ToneRite already financed such independent tests and they are now ongoing...stay tuned).




> While some of these changes are normal in a new mandolin, especially a hand carved top and back, but this seems to be quite a bit more than what I have seen in other mandolins.  While I still don't like the fact it has to be laid down rather than hung, it does seem to be improving areas of the mandolin.  The response on this instrument is different from the TR, which improved volume and bottom end response initially and then balance over the remaining time.  The TR was pretty consistent in its results in all the instruments I did use it on.  I will see what happens over the next few days with the PV and then switch it to a guitar to see what it does there as well.


We heard the same changes as described above with every instrument on which primeVibe was tested, including solid body guitar (after 24 hours), solid wood bongo drums, and harmonica.




> My only concern at the moment is whether the rubber pads would react in a negative manner to some varnish finishes.  It does not seem to affect the nitro cellulose lacquer and I doubt it would affect poly, but the varnish may not be so friendly.  You could probably put a thin soft piece of cotton cloth under the pads for protection, but I would think that would stifle some of the effect of the vibration.


I can not overstate my gratitude to Joe for his feedback on every and any finish, especially varnish.

Joe:
How safe, on a scale of 1-10, do you consider cotton on varnish?





> Anyway, we will report more as we have something to report.  So far some frustrations that can be easily solved for the most part, though I would prefer to be able to hang the instrument for increased vibration of the entire mandolin.  However, it does still work.  I do like the improvement in the A string and D string.  The other strings are also stronger, but not as noticeably.


Again, my deepest and most heartfelt thanks for Joe's obvious care and time put into this test to now.

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## hank

OK I gotta ask.  What is the cruel looking device that poor guitar is being tortured with?

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## primeVibe

Short version, I'm embarrassed to admit I'm waiting for my back issue so I have no idea what is that device...my professional guess is some type of condenser mic but please don't quote me.  I thought for a moment it might be a device to measure distance, but obviously a laser would be used for such purpose.    

With my pre-apologies to Michael Cone, and with no intent to wish him wrong, a few weeks ago I emailed Michael to see if he might be interested in helping us document primeVibe's efficacy.  So far, no reply.

Maybe if he gets enough requests we can get him interested.  From the 3-D cloud graphs I saw in his article, Cone appears to be the highest authority extant on the current subject.

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## Ben Milne

by recommending people don't play bottom heavy music, is there an inference that 60 cycles (at a certain amplitude) could cause damage to an instrument?  Other than recommending against it has the PV got any protective measures built in? eg HPF or limiters etc?

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## primeVibe

Yes, there is a HPF (high pass filter) in the amp, 3dB/octave below 200 Hz.  This prevents me from suggesting the amp for any other use.    

My philosophy is the waveforms best seasoning the instrument are those for which it was desinged to produce.  Again, please accept my humble apology for a dearth of direct mandolin experience: Dr. Olson's book shows the lowest standard tuning mandolin fundamental being G3, 196 Hz (G below middle C, AKA C4).  I'd love to know about common alternate (lower) tunings if such exist.  So, playing music with fundamentals below G3 may have little to no positive seasoning effect.  

G3 is so high in frequency that playing lower fundamentals in the music program is virtually certain except for solo mandolin music or maybe flute.  

Seasoning the opposite type of instrument, a double bass, whose lowest fundamental tone is 42 Hz, demonstrates the following potential issue.  The octave below 42 Hz (yes, we're only talking about huge bass drum and synthesizer and lowest piano notes) requires not double the transducer element excursion but rather 4x the excursion.  21 Hz requires 4x the excursion of 42 Hz.  I'm happy to admit to double-bass owners (no sales yet to bass owners that I know of) that primeVibe's output is limited for your lowest fundamental vs. all other instruments for which it is advertised to season.  It might take longer to season a bass vs. other instruments for this reason.  (plus the above HPF roles off the bass a bit)    

I'll leave the issue of potential damage to the instrument to the professional luthiers.  My professional opinion of primeVibe compared to my limited knowledge of instrument design is this: you're gonna be calling uncle Jim to talk about a blown primeVibe before you need to report instrument damage to your luthier caused by primeVibe.  As per the instructions: in every audio application I know of, a burnt voice coil is defined as abuse.  Audible distortion is a no-no in audio, and the more audible and more gross is the distortion the more it is the user's sole risk.  Disregarding audible distortion is normally considered the user's sole responsibility, and it may result in a blown amp and or blown transducer voice coil.  (General, not pV specific: Sometimes when an amp blows it sends DC to the speaker, causing immediate terminal failure...speakers are made to reproduce AC waveforms, not DC.  The point about audible distortion is that it is proof that something is being driven beyond it's capacity, be it amp or speaker or both.  One exception is intended distortion such as electric guitar/blues harmonica effects.)       

That's why I was quite concerned about the earlier distortion comments from Joe.  In all my prior experience turning it down and/or re-positioning the transducers eliminated the distortion.  I've never blown a transducer and I've made gross errors with the volume control (resulting in brief very gross distortion) maybe about six times.  I'm getting old and have some hearing issues related to 28 years as a fireman.  Joe's ears are almost positively better than mine and I bet he hears a lot of distortion that I don't.        

Now, I read about 300 internet pages about our sole "competition" ToneRite.  In the Collings forum with about 130 TR testers, a few, IIRC 3, experienced damage, and it was later disclosed the instruments already had mechanical damage only exacerbated by the TR.  It was not a direct fault of TR in any way.

I respectfully request Joe's sage advice on this: using primeVibe on a mandolin, how likely is damage to the mandolin playing music with fundamentals lower than G3, at the levels primeVibe appears capable of reproducing?  (The lower the fundamental, esp below 50 Hz, the smaller is primeVibe's maximum dynamic envelope.)  My professional opinion is that primeVibe would fail well, and I mean really well, below the level at which it could possibly damage a mandolin.  Look at the transducers and push the element in and out.  It's maximum excursion is too limited and the amp power too low to hurt any properly assembled instrument.  A light drop of the instrument from 1/2" above a hard surface would likely be 100x more violent than primeVibe's maximum output.

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## Big Joe

Damage to an instrument that is structurally sound is very HIGHLY unlikely from either the Prime Vibe or the Tone Rite.  The only damage from the Tone Rite would be if you dropped the unit on the finish.  That would very probably leave a dent in the wood or at least a mark in the finish.  The only concern I have with the Prime Vibe is the potential for finish damage to oil varnish finishes.  It may not be an issue, but there is a good possibility that it could.  Please understand, that is not structural damage, only damage to the finish itself.  This can usually be french polished out, but I would want to know for certain that it would not harm the finish before trying it on varnish.

I don't know if Cotton is the perfect choice under the rubber cones or not.  I was thinking like a soft used (but definitely cleaned  :Smile:  ) baby diaper.  As long as it does not dampen the product so much that it reduces the effectiveness of the PV it should be fine.  I would also think a non treated Micro Fibre cloth would work well.

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## Big Joe

I have done 3 days with the Prime Vibe on the LM 400.  This has become an incredible mandolin.  It was really good to begin with and has improved substantially.  To be honest, part of that improvement is due to the Prime Vibe and part of it to being played and played hard for a week.  The two together have helped it substantially.  

The improvement from the PV has been noticeable and the volume and tone has increased over the test period.  The increase was always more balanced than the TR from day one, though at first I did not think it would achieve the power difference I had seen with the TR.  It has.  It is not more than the other, but certainly equal to it.  I hear the greatest increase in the A strings but it has become a bit more balanced after day 3 and with a few days hard playing.

I am going to discontinue the LM 400 and put it on another instrument.  Mostly because I play the LM400 and need it available all the time and cannot dedicate it to the test any longer.  It has been used enough on this instrument to see the difference from before and after.  I will chose another instrument today and then run the test for a week if possible.  That will be a complete test and allow me to give a better evaluation as compared to the TR.  I am also doing another instrument with the TR so I can do a side by side comparison of the two systems.

Either system will do what they say they will from my initial observations of the PV.  The end result seems to be very equal and they achieve the same goal with a bit different method.  The TR costs more initially, but it is ready to go right out of the box.  Nothing to hook up or wire or plug except the AC plug into the wall.  The PV you do have to put it together.  This is not hard or difficult though so that is not really an issue.  You do have to provide a sound source for the PV, which you do NOT have to do with the TR.  The PV is not ready to go right out of the box.  By the time I factor in my expense for purchasing an MP3 player the cost is very comparable.  This can be mitigated if you already have an MP3 player you can dedicate to this.  I did not.  I did not factor in the time and inconvenience of shopping for one and the gas to get it, etc.  Again, not a big deal but the cost would not be that much more for a cheap MP3 player in the box so you have to go nowhere to get one to use with it.  Another option would be to sell it with an MP3 for those who may need it, and without one for those who do not.

The only other inconvenience in my mind is that it has to lay on its back.  First, that takes space that is not always avialable, and the second, I think anything would work better if the back were not dampened by laying on it.  The back vibrating more freely would, in my mind, be better if it could hang.

I will post more as the test goes on.  Tomorrow I will post what I am using it on next.  Again, it seems to be a good product and between the two brands, very equal so far in its outcome.  The things I find inconvenient may not be an issue with anyone else, but it is important for the consumer to know this out front.  Thank you.

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## primeVibe

I humbly and respectfully desire to add to Big Joe's in-depth review that ToneRite requires the purchase of two different models to season mandolin and guitar, $149ea, or $298 total, vs. one primeVibe for $99 + user-supplied music source.

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## Big Joe

Actually... the TR can be used for either.  The spacing on the rubber string inserts are set for the particular instrument, but can be used on either so one could be used for both.  This is from information from TR.  I am not defending them, but just for the sake or fairness for comparison.  The PV is going on a guitar today so we will see if it has the same effect as on the mandolin.  I was impressed with the similar results the TR gave from every instrument it was used with.  I have no reason to think it would be any different with the PV.  They seem to achieve a fairly similar end result but a bit different in how they get there.  I am going to put it on a Recording King Acoustic six string guitar.  It is a 12 fret slot head.  These are pretty amazing guitars right out of the box so it will be nice to see if this gives the improvements I expect.  I will post more on that tomorrow.  It is nice to have options in helping our instruments open up and achieve thier full potential in our life time.  Many of us cannot afford the money for vintage instruments, and many of us are a bit long in the tooth for a new instrument to open up with 30 years playing time.  If the PV or TR help us achieve our goal of maximum performance then it is certianly worth the cost of either device.  Thank you.

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## NAS

> OK I gotta ask.  What is the cruel looking device that poor guitar is being tortured with?


Industrial type shaker (really a loud speaker coil type arrangement without the cone) silver bit below is an impedance head measuring force and acceleration connected by a stinger to the bridge. The sort of setup that is used to do experimental vibration and modal analysis work on structures (my day job!)

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## NoNickel

> It is nice to have options in helping our instruments open up and achieve thier full potential in our life time.  Many of us cannot afford the money for vintage instruments, and many of us are a bit long in the tooth for a new instrument to open up with 30 years playing time.


Would you, Big Joe, or anyone have any kind of idea on how to quantify some kind of play time to dedamping device ratio?  Such as 1 hour on the TR or PV equals 1 week of normal play (at an hour a week).  I know it is a stretch, but even something rough would be cool.

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## primeVibe

> Would you, Big Joe, or anyone have any kind of idea on how to quantify some kind of play time to dedamping device ratio?  Such as 1 hour on the TR or PV equals 1 week of normal play (at an hour a week).  I know it is a stretch, but even something rough would be cool.


That's a very thoughtful question.  I'm interested to read a reply.  I'd not hazard a guess.

Mandolin output is dominated by mid-range tones.  primeVibe, similar to most audio systems, has its greatest dynamic capacity in the mid-range.  Mandolin users might consider employing music program that lacks deep bass and/or is not bass-heavy.  This will allow greater playback level before the onset of audible distortion, with the subsequent advantage of deeper seasoning action and better results than the same period employing bass-heavy or deep-bass music program, which would require a lower overall playback level.

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## Big Joe

NoNickel.... I don't know that there is an accurate answer to your question.  Each piece of wood is different from others and different wood species respond differently to the stimulus which produces the end result.  In order to achieve the same results as the artificial stimulators do it could take many months of hard playing.  I believe the devices give you an insight to what the mandolin ( or guitar) will sound like after regular hard playing for a number of years.  The constant vibrations... whether vibrating the top directly or indirectly through the strings and bridge...will develop the tone the instrument certainly has already withing its capabilities, but accelerates the process substantially.  This will yield results far more immediate than just waiting for a natural aging process.

On a different issue, my oldest son and family live in EL Paso, just north of Bloomington.  Small world  :Smile:  .  I usually visit there about 3 times a year.

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## NoNickel

Wow, small world indeed.  State Farm?  Farmer?  ISU?  Musician?  I fo by El Paso up Rte 39 all the time.  Just diid it on Turkey day.

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## Big Joe

Well, I finally got the PV on a guitar today.  We will see what the results are.  I still find two things that I don't like about the PV.  First, is the space you have to dedicate to using the product.  Since it has to lay on its back to work, you have to have a space large enough to use for that and space is always a difficult thing to find.  Second, is the music coming through the instrument with the PV attached.  I realize this is the design of the item, but I would rather not have the sound going.  This is usually because we are busy and it can be distracting.  

On the positive side, the volume seems to be an indication of the PV working.  We set it so there is very, very minimal volume when we begin the test.  After a period of time the volume increases.  It seems the more the volume increases the more the top is vibrating.  This should be an indication that the PV is working and loosening the top so it vibrates more freely.  This should produce more volume and a more open tone.  It did on the mandolin.  Of course, the guitar is larger with a larger plate that vibrates a bit more easily so the volume can be a bit more to begin with.

In any product there are always trade offs that you have to deal with.  That is why there are more than one kind of tools to accomplish a job.   I am not picking on the PV, since it seems to be doing what it is supposed to do.  It is just little irritations I find since it distracts me at times (Yes, I am ADHD!!!).  In a shop environment instrumental music seems to help the guys concentrate on the work.  Vocal music has a tendency to distract from the task at hand because the listener is concentrating on the lyrics.  This can distract ones attention at a critical time and can lead to shop accidents.  We play only instrumental music in the shop when we are working.

We are all musicians and love nearly every genre of music, but we also don't want anyone injured by a sharp chisel or power tool by loosing concentration on the job at hand.  Now you ask, "what has this got to do with my test?".  Pretty simple.  My MP3 is loaded with music and much of it is not instrumental.  Therefore, much of it is vocal.  This can be distracting to us and that I don't like.  That is not the fault of the PV, but rather the fault of the user in the music selected to be used for the work at hand.  Unfortunately, I did not have hours to go through and select only instrumental music for this test.  I may not be a frustrated with the music coming through the instrument had I done so.  Therefore, the fault is not the manufacturer, but the user.  This is a real world test though and I wanted to do what I thought most buyers would likely do.  My frustrations can also be positives.  In certain environments the vocal music and volume would be a welcome trait.  So, while I may sound like I am complaining about these issues, it is only from the perspective of the way the test is being done by the user to a great degree. 

I still don't like the idea that the instrument has to be lying on its back to work.  For two reasons.  First, the space you need to dedicate to this.  If you have sufficient space it is not an issue.  I don't.... at the shop or at home.  That, again, is not the fault of the PV but of the user.  Of course, most buyers may not think of this before trying to use the product.  Second, laying on its back allows the top to vibrate pretty freely, but the back will not move as much.  This could limit the effectiveness of the product over a longer period.  With the instrument hanging the entire instrument can vibrate quite freely and can respond, to my mind, much more effectively.  

Ok, another long post.  Again, it appears from initial applications that the PV works as advertised and that is the primary purpose of the test.  The rest of the issues relate to ease of use and personal observations.  I have complicated the test a little.  I have taken the LM 400 mandolin that I used the PV on and played it heavily the last couple days.  I have put the TR on it for a day to see if that makes any effect.  That will not have anything to do with the PV, but just to see if the TR adds anything to what has already been accomplished with playing and PV application.  I just have to satisfy my curiosity  :Smile: .  I will do the same with an instrument where the PV goes on after the TR has been used.

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## NoNickel

> On the positive side, the volume seems to be an indication of the PV working.  We set it so there is very, very minimal volume when we begin the test.  After a period of time the volume increases.  It seems the more the volume increases the more the top is vibrating.  This should be an indication that the PV is working and loosening the top so it vibrates more freely.  This should produce more volume and a more open tone.  It did on the mandolin.  Of course, the guitar is larger with a larger plate that vibrates a bit more easily so the volume can be a bit more to begin with.


Big Joe, I have also noticed a volume increase while the unit is working with the Tone Rite.  When I first started using it, nobody in the house knew that the unit was on.  Now the family constantly complains of the buzzing noise.  That was only after about a week of constant use.  And yes, the mandolin sounds much better when played.  Deep and woody.  Loud, loud, loud!

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## Coachz

How about i just leave it in my room where I'm cranking up Led Zeppelin at 100dB

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## MikeEdgerton

I wonder why nobody ever thought of that before.

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## Coachz

or sit it on your washing machine during spin cycle or put in on the riding mower when you mow the lawn.   I bet my week wacker could put some vibrations into that wood.  how about an ultrasonic jewelery cleaner or my sonicare toothbrush.

heheh

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## Big Joe

In reality, the PV is very similar to putting your guitar on a stand and letting the speakers vibrate the instrument.  The only difference is that the drivers are placed directly on top of the guitar or mandolin and the top of the instrument becomes a part of the speaker itself.  The PV is similar enough that it makes one ask if the difference in technique is worth the effort, but it is more efficient than just putting on the stereo.  Using the drivers directly on the top will move them more than just the pressure filtered through the air from the speaker to the instrument.

I have always maintained that instruments kept on stands in the open in rooms where you actually live.... watch tv, talk, play music, run the stereo, will always make your instrument sound better than keeping it locked in a case unattended.  First, the top is constantly vibrated, as are the strings and the entire instrument across all frequencies.  Second, you are more apt to play an instrument that is already out than having to go dig it out of a case and then return it upon completion.  Availability helps play time, which helps improve tone.  The only down side is you may have to change strings a little more often from accumalated dust in the air.  I think that is a small price to pay.

Either the PV or TR can accelerate the breaking in period.  They do the same thing only different  :Smile:  .  It is more effecient than just leaving it out in the room, but even that is a good help.  I don't think I would suggest putting it on the washing machine though  :Smile:  .

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## Coachz

from now on, i'm storing my mandolin on the table with my kickin cerwin vegas.  I'll play Toto's bass slammer High Price of Hate to keep it ready.     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=409nofDp1r0

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## Big Joe

I've just finished 24+ hours with the PV on an acoustic guitar.  The guitar is a rosewood with sitka spruce top.  It is a decent guitar and sounded pretty good before we started.  The PV has been running since I put it on early yesterday morning.  I took the "speakers" off for a few minutes, tuned the guitar, and played it for a few minutes.  It was a little louder, but not dramatically.  It was a bit punchier in the mids, but again, not substantially.  It will be interesting to see what the next few days will bring.  Of all the instruments I've used the PV or TR on, this one has had the least dramatic change in the first 24 hours.  Usually the most dramatic changes have been in the first day and a bit of balancing over the next few days.

I also put the TR on the LM400 that had been treated with the PV earlier.  After the first day the bottom end was enhanced and helped balance the A string a bit more.  When the experiment with the PV began the mandolin was weakest on the E and A strings.  Over the days with the PV the A string became dominant.  It needed a little help at the start so that was not bad, but it was a bit overpowering after the test.  Not really problematic, but definately stronger than the other strings. 

After the TR on the LM400 for a day, the strings are much more balanced and the bottom end has improved so now the strings are all fairly well balanced.  Would this change have occured with another day on the PV?  Possibly, but so far my experience is that the PV enhances more mid range tones rather than the bottom end.  There could be many reasons for that including the selection of music being played through the PV.  I have a rather broad genre of music in nearly every style.  Much of it has mandolin, but also numerous other instruments.  Part of it is bluegrass, but there is a lot of jazz, swing, gospel, and some country mixed in there.  I love bass so I have a lot of music with acoustic upright bass.  I would think the selection would give a balanced response since it is not overly heavy in any style or instrument being played and the mix is just the same as was on the original recording.  I also have the MP3 played so it selects the songs at random rather than an entire album at a time.

The prior experience with the TR has been that it enhances the low end first then begins to balance out and none of the registers seems to overpower the other.  I did put the TR back on the LM400 today and it will be on there until I leave the shop this afternoon.  The PV will be on the guitar over the weekend.

Again, my results show both systems work.  They approach the solution from a bit different angle, and they have a bit different response to the instrument but they both do what they claim to do.  I still have the same minor irritations with the PV that I had to begin with, but that has nothing to do with its function or success.  Either one will give a positive result in my opinion.  What system is best for you depends upon your situation.  The PV is cooler looking with its nice purple and shiny elements and wires all over that make it look very high tech  :Smile:  .  The TR is pretty basic and simple.  It is all black, with only one wire and that is the one that goes from the TR to the switch and then to the wall socket.  Fast, easy, and simple to use and requires a minimal of space.  The PV requires a bit more table, or counter, or floor space but does look pretty cool and high tech.  It would certainly generate more discussion from your friends and band mates as they see the bright shiny elements and the wires and you can go into great detail about how it is "scientifically" going to enhance your instrument.  :Smile:  .

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## Big Joe

I have finished the test on the acoustic guitar.  It is an inexpensive guitar that is pretty good.  The treatment was about 3 days over a five day period.  The results were pretty similar to the mandolin.  There was an increase in volume and it was fairly even across the frequency spectrum.  No one end was enhanced more than another.  If anything maybe a bit of a boost in the mid range.  

I would love to have had more time to work with it, but the space requirements for an instrument lying on its back for a substantial period of time is hard to do.  I have limited counter space and limited unused space in the shop.  As work load increases the available space becomes a premium and we did run out of space.  

I will try another experiment in a few days or as soon as I can get the space available.  The Prime Vibe works exactly as it claims from my determination.  The frustrations I have may not be there for many, and many will have a spot where they can place it on its back for an extended period of time without issue.

For me, I do not have the space at home for anything to lay on its back for any period of time.  We have a relatively small home, and we have two grandchildren we are raising, so space is at a premium there.  Anyplace I would put it would place the instrument in danger or be in our way for everyday living.  If you have a room where you can use for music or other hobbies it will be fine, but I do not have that luxury.  The same condition seems to be at the shop.  We have a lot of instruments in the shop at all times.  Often there is not any place to put another instrument  because the work must come first.  I have tried to allot a place for the experiment, but there certainly would not be any significant opportunity to use it in real world application for me.  Again, that may not be the case with others, but is for me.

My results to date have not changed from the first day I tested the device.  It does what it says, and can help open the instrument.  It seems to increase volume across the entire spectrum and if any area is enhanced more than the others it is a bit in the mid range.  That was what I experienced from the first day through the experiments on two instruments.  

Now the comparison, again, between the Prime Vibe and the Tone Rite.  The PV and TR both do what they say they will and do so on any instrument I have tested.  The PV must be used with the instrument laying on its back.  The TR can be used with the instrument hanging on a stand.  The PV does not really enhance any frequency spectrum more than the others at any stage of the experiment.  The TR enhances the bottom end first and then pulls the other spectrums up to the level of the bottom end. 

The PV requires a source for the unit to work.  An MP3 or similar device.  Many will have this available and that is not a problem.  Many will not, and they will have to purchase one, which will increase the cost of the unit to about what the TR runs.  The TR does not need anything to work right out of the box.  The cost of the PV is 99.00 plus if you need to add an MP3.  If you use Apples program the least expensive MP3 I found was 49.00.  That would make the total cost about 150.00.  The TR runs about 150.00 street price.  Cost is really not much different when all things are considered.  

They both function and do so as advertised.  For me, the TR is easier because of the space and not having to have an outside source for the vibration.  If you have the space and the MP3 already, the PV would be about 1/3 less money.  How much affect that really has is hard to say depending upon each persons situation.  You, as the consumer, must determine that.  The PV is very cool looking with its purple case.  It looks much more high tech, but is in reality a small stereo unit with rubber drivers that vibrate the top and enhance the tone.  You can listen to the music if you like while it is functioning.  That may be a benefit for some, not for me.  The TR looks pretty industrial and is just black and hangs on the instrument just doing what it does.  It is pretty invisible unless you are looking for it.

Again, I will try the test again as soon as I can get some space.  If you are looking for an improvement in the immediate sound and volume of your instrument, then either of these devices can achieve that goal.  It will not put something into your instrument that is not already there, but will help it open faster.  I have been using one of these devices on a mandolin with a red spruce top.  Red spruce has a tendency to be a bit tight when it is new or not played often.  It takes a bit to warm up and begin to really achieve its best.  If I play for 15-20 minutes it will suddenly open up and the volume is increased and the tone is enhanced.  Using the device accomplishes this for me so it will be ready to go when I start to play.  Saves me 15-20 minutes of playing to get it ready to go.  Over time the red spruce will be opened and not need this time as long as it is played on a regular basis.  The more it is played the less this will occur until you put it away for a period of time and it goes back to sleep.  The devices can help overcome that sleepy state before you play.  Either of these devices can be a useful tool for most musicians who play out and want the optimum projection and tone available.

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## hank

Thanks Joe I enjoy these enhancement threads.  I especially appreciate you taking the time and trouble to check these devices and processes out.  These seem to be great for serious performing artist wanting to maximize their instruments before a show.  On the other hand I wonder if continued use over long periods of time could cause an instrument to be played out similar to rumors we hear of Sam Bush's Hoss.
  Ha Ha!  You should have seen the look on my wifes face when she asked me what I was writing about.  I told her that we were discussing waking up musical instrument with electrical devices and whether these instruments will be worn out from not getting enough sleep.

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## Coachz

After a week of playing Nickelback Darkhorse to my mandolin at 110 db, this mandolin sounds amazing !  :-)

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## primeVibe

I am amazed and delighted at Big Joe's depth of detail and time spent on this endeavor.  

The Electronic Ind. Assoc. Consumer Electronics Group defines relative SPL thusly: 100 dB = garbage truck, chain saw, pneumatic drill...120 dB = rock band concert _in front of speakers_, thunderclap.  So...110 dB falls midway between the above, for Coachz' reference.  The following is self-serving but could also aid in preventing hearing loss (hearing loss is accelerating in young people...once you loose it it's gone forever): may I humbly suggest primeVibe as an alternative to 110 dB SPL to season an instrument?  

From our webpage titled "Loudspeakers vs. primeVibe Transducers": This subject has come up enough that it seemed prudent to devote a page to it.  A normal loudspeaker driver and primeVibe’s transducers share some electro-mechanical properties but their missions in life are mutually exclusive.

Musicians often suggest seasoning an instrument by placing it close to high-output loudspeakers playing at high volume.  My Senior Independent Product Rep Mark Allison said that Eddie Van Halen did this with his guitars.  Someone mentioned that Doc Watson seasoned his guitars with a “transistor radio” in the sound-hole.  I unashamedly admit this primeVibe journey started with me looking for a super high output headphone driver to fit in the sound hole (with the strings attached) to season my guitar in the body (not to develop a product for profit but rather only for personal use).  This search soon ended in a brick wall, till NXT’s patented technology appeared, leading to the product about which you now read.

Herein is the difference between loudspeakers and primeVibe transducers, supporting my conclusion that primeVibe’s positive audible benefit is multiples greater than any non-patented loudspeaker technology: Air presents an extremely high physical impedance to the transmission of sound pressure.  1% is a typical rate of efficiency for converting electrical energy into sound, explaining why high-power discrete analog power amplifiers are so large and generate much heat.  This is explained in Wikipedia Section 5.3 HERE and is the reason normal loudspeakers, even at deafening sound pressure levels, vibrate an instrument less than primeVibe.

Blame it on NXT’s patented technology.  The transducers are almost silent when held in the air (see our video, sorry we desire not to finance a pro production right now).  But when the transducers contact the guitar the sound is immediately obvious; the wood vibrates equal to a strong strum of all six strings (primeVibe is quieter than strumming because the transducers cause the vibration rather than the strings).  The transducers are electro-mechanically designed to induce a high-density solid to produce sound, not to make sound when presented a low-density atmosphere as is the purpose of a normal loudspeaker.

primeVibe is far more efficient than a regular loudspeaker at vibrating a solid, even if there was some method to safely and efficiently couple a regular loudspeaker to a solid, which appears to be impossible.  This is because a regular speaker driver is engineered to make sound directly in the atmosphere, not to induce a solid to make sound.  The vastly different mass between atmosphere and a solid demands a completely different electromechanical design to produce musical sound.  NXT own well over 300 worldwide patents on any electromechanical device that induces a solid material into making audible sound.  The fact the USPTO granted NXT’s patent also gives testimony to the differences explained herein.  If a regular speaker and NXT’s technology shared similar purposes in life, no NXT patent would exist.

The following clearly demonstrates: A regular loudspeaker is as efficient at inducing a solid to make sound as primeVibe is at causing sound in the atmosphere.  In our demo video sound output is obvious with primeVibe transducers atop the guitar, but it is almost silent when the primeVibe transducers are lifted to contact only the atmosphere (notice me damp the strings to more accurately reflect the volume drop).

A miniature full-range/high output/high-sensitivity loudspeaker would cost many multiples more than primeVibe.  Even if such a loudspeaker was safely and efficiently made to physically contact an instrument, primeVibe would still season better.   The loudspeaker would resonate wildly at certain frequencies (possibly even causing mechanical damage to the instrument) and other frequencies would be inaudible, with commensurate unpleasant results.

Again, the above scenario is because of the mutually exclusive functions of generating sound with the atmosphere directly vs. inducing a solid to produce musical sounds.  Regular loudspeakers are designed for the former, primeVibe is designed for the latter.

primeVibe is also packaged attractively for musicians and of course the contact surfaces are specially tailored for the needs of fine instruments.

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## Big Joe

I too think the PV would be better than just setting the instrument in front of speakers turned on to high volume.  The high volume is not needed, and the drivers from the PV sitting on top of the soundboard of the instrument is far more efficient at low volumes than the speakers are at high volumes.

Hank... wives don't always get it  :Smile:  .  In reality, I don't believe either of these devices, even frequently used for a long period, will cause an instrument to suffer from fatigue.  Hoss still sounds pretty good and Sam still uses it quite often.  I have played that mandolin and heard it many times, and it certainly has not fatigued.  I have heard a good number of very expensive instruments that have suffered fatigue, but usually there are structural issues that are the cause of that.

In the case of Hoss, as an example, it has been altered a good number of years ago.  It has also been heavily, heavily used in the most extreme of situations.  If there were anything to cause fatigue, these would be the things to do it.  Normal instruments will never go through what that mandolin has.  Most often the cause of fatigue is not playing time, but rather structural issues in the way that particular instrument was built.  For example, if a top is too thin it can sound very good when it is new, but over time will begin to show signs of fatigue and if not properly handled, will suffer fatigue that can be heard in the tone and volume of the instrument.  Improper bracing, loose neck joints, separations of glue joints, poor neck angle, excessive neck angle.  All these can lead to what is called fatigue.  If the structural issue is dealt with, then the issue resolves.  Some times the fix is pretty simple, sometimes not.  However, the resulting fatigue must be dealt with in order for the instrument to be functional on a continuing basis.

In any case, the devices (PV or TR) will not cause this.  It is caused by the instrument, not the device.  One reason to ensure your instrument is in proper structural shape, and properly set up for optimal function before using these devices is to ward off any possible problem you may encounter by using these devices, or just by playing in normal use.  These do no more than playing does, and actually is probably milder on the instrument structurally than hitting it hard and fast with a plectrum forcing the greatest volume out of it that we can  :Smile:  .  

Whether awake or asleep, the mandolins do need to be in good condition.  Then they really are designed to be played or stimulated by these devices.  These do no more than what is done by playing.  I would not worry about doing damage if done properly with either of these devices.  I can see not possible damage to be done... except by dropping them on the instrument.  Oh... and possibly forgetting you have the instrument laying on the floor being treated and step on it  :Smile:  .

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## tcraft

Howdy all,I know i,am a green horn to the site and a beginner mandolin playing but I purchase a prime vibe and it awesome.I bought my wife a new ukulele and it needed to project a little more so I put a 100hr of music and it sounds great.A little hint chello music make it sound real good.We have a new ukulele builder in Nampa,ID and he is putting all his ukulele on primvibe. Thank Marc :Mandosmiley:

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## primeVibe

Marc
Thank you for the up beat post!!!

May we inquire the name of the ukulele builder in Nampa, ID?  Nampa is just a few hours drive north of primeVibe's palatial world headquarters (i.e. this here well-worn vintage 2004 Dell XP computer, in my rather cluttered basement office). :Grin:

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## tcraft

The name of the ukulele is 3GWOODWORKS.Right know I putting the vibe on a solid koa ukulele and let me say they got a winner here.I wish I had the money to buy this.Marc

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## primeVibe

> The name of the ukulele is 3GWOODWORKS.Right know I putting the vibe on a solid koa ukulele and let me say they got a winner here.I wish I had the money to buy this.Marc


Marc
I spoke at length today with the senior principal at 3GWoodworks.  Their ukuleles look absolutely gorgeous in the images, and appear to be superb value.  I've been so busy with worldwide distributor queries since NAMM that I forgot his name and did not write it down. 

We proudly announce that 3GWoodworks will become the first known luthier employing primeVibe in their manufacturing process.  Martin Guitar's Operations Chief received a primeVibe sample at NAMM.  He said he will personally test it and he is of course a guitar player.  We look forward to their feedback.  I wonder if it's OK with Debra if Martin released a line of guitars with "pV" suffixes denoting 100 hours of primeVibe seasoning at the Martin factory?  I wonder...   

The 3G principal mentioned an interesting story about the response by several ukulele players upon hearing your new ukulele seasoned for 100 hours with primeVibe.  I'd be indebted if you retold that story here.

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