# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Pentatonic Scale for Idiots

## jlavkuli

I have been playing guitar for many years and the OM for about a month.  I understand notes, chords, progressions etc.  I can transpose chords and had no trouble learning chords on the OM.  I can strum along with most of the songs when my wife plays the fiddle.  After reading some of the posts on this thread I know that most of you are way out of my league in music theory.

Throughtout the years I have tried to understand the pentatonic scale and still have no clue.  I know that the pentatonic scale starting in C is C D E A G C    OK.  So what does that mean for me, an amatuer picker?  Some of the explanations I have read just make me laugh.  For example Wiki (I know... don't go to Wiki):  

"Proceeding by the principle that historically gives the Pythagorean diatonic and chromatic scales, stacking perfect fifths with 3:2 frequency proportions, the anhemitonic pentatonic scale can be tuned thus; 64:72:81:96:108. Considering the anhemitonic scale as a subset of a just diatonic scale, it is tuned thus; 24:27:30:36:40. Assigning precise frequency proportions to the pentatonic scales of most cultures is problematic."

Right...   Anyone care to to take a stab at explaining it to a musically challenged music lover?

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## mandolirius

> I have been playing guitar for many years and the OM for about a month.  I understand notes, chords, progressions etc.  I can transpose chords and had no trouble learning chords on the OM.  I can strum along with most of the songs when my wife plays the fiddle.  After reading some of the posts on this thread I know that most of you are way out of my league in music theory.
> 
> Throughtout the years I have tried to understand the pentatonic scale and still have no clue.  I know that the pentatonic scale starting in C is C D E A G C    OK.  So what does that mean for me, an amatuer picker?  Some of the explanations I have read just make me laugh.  For example Wiki (I know... don't go to Wiki):  
> 
> "Proceeding by the principle that historically gives the Pythagorean diatonic and chromatic scales, stacking perfect fifths with 3:2 frequency proportions, the anhemitonic pentatonic scale can be tuned thus; 64:72:81:96:108. Considering the anhemitonic scale as a subset of a just diatonic scale, it is tuned thus; 24:27:30:36:40. Assigning precise frequency proportions to the pentatonic scales of most cultures is problematic."
> 
> Right...   Anyone care to to take a stab at explaining it to a musically challenged music lover?


Hilarious! That "explanation" is a wonderful example of how more information can sometimes be completely unhelpful. Where did that come from?

As for what the pentatonic scale means to the amateur picker, I'd say it's a gateway to improvisation. Pentatonic scales are usually fairly easy to execute and work in a variety of situations. The blues, for example is full of pentatonic scales, same with oldtime and bluegrass. You may be in danger of "overthinking" this one.

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## John Gardinsky

> I know that the pentatonic scale starting in C is C D E A G C    OK.  So what does that mean for me, an amatuer picker?


The pentatonic scale is five notes by definition before it hits the octave note or root note. Pentatonics occur in all the 12 keys both major and minor.  One reason to learn it is because it is quite common in Western music.  If you familiarize yourself with what it sounds like and where it lays on the fretboard then you can grasp pentatonic melodies faster.  Amazing Grace is a major pentatonic melody for example. Wayfaring stranger is a minor pentatonic melody.

Your C Major pentatonic scale above is correct but out of order. Ascending it should read C D E G A before it hits C again. Now contrast this with the C Major scale(7 notes)  C D E F G A B.  The pentatonic just drops two notes which are the 4th (F) and 7th (B). It creates a certain sound...Some like it, some find it boring in large doses. Nonetheless a good thing to have in ones toolbox.

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## Mark Robertson-Tessi

> So what does that mean for me, an amatuer picker?


I would ignore that section from Wikipedia.  Has minimal practical value.  

What is means for playing music is that the pentatonic is a useful scale that is about as safe as you can get from the perspective of playing in harmony with the chords at hand.  If you want to move away from only playing the notes indicated by the chord, a first step is to use the pentatonic scale.  Take a C Major chord, for example.  If you want to improvise a simple melody or accompaniment over this chord, you could make it very safe and just use the notes in a C major chord.  Namely, C, E, and G.  However, that is a rather limited set of notes, and therefore there aren't too many possibilities for building interesting melodies.  So the next step up is the pentatonic scale.  This gives you the three notes of the chord (C E G) plus two more (D A).  Turns out that D and A are pretty harmonious against the C major chord to our ears.  So they are pretty safe to play over this chord. It's hard to play a C pentatonic melody over a C chord and make it sound discordant.

So when playing accompaniment on the OM to a tune, you may find that you want to add measure or two of counter melody perhaps.  But what to play, besides strumming the chords or pulling out bass notes?  Here's where some experimentation with the pentatonic scale can lead to something that is more than just the chord, but doesn't veer off into dissonance with some ill-chosen notes from the entire C major scale.  Strum the chords, decide where you will insert a line, and try an ascent or descent through 5 or 6 notes of the pentatonic, and slide back into chords.  Like I said, will be hard to make it sound dissonant.  Depending on what style of music, and the rhythm, and all that, the results may be less than satisfactory.  But, it's a way to get the sound of the tonal palette that the pentatonic provides in your head, and it's a safe palette to choose from.  It's also a good leaping point to move to a larger palette down the road.

Well, maybe none of the above has practical value, but there's some thoughts on it anyway.

Cheers
MRT

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## jlavkuli

Great replies.  I do understand.  I guess I was making it too complicated.  Sometimes while chording I add a few single note runs. and I see now that they are always on the pentatonic scale.  So if someone is playing a C chord I can play any of the notes C D E G and A in any order that sounds good.  And if my wife is playing a melody on the fiddle where I would normally be playing a C chord, the same applies.   Right?   Thanks guys.  You would all make good teachers.

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## Mark Robertson-Tessi

That's the basic idea, yes.  Generally, the notes of the chord (i.e. C E G) still tend to get an emphasis over the other 2 notes (D A) in the pentatonic.  John G mentioned Amazing Grace.  It is strictly pentatonic (unless you soup it up with extra blue notes!), but if you look at the downbeat of each bar, every single downbeat is actually a chord tone.  The two pentatonic notes which are not chordal happen in passing between the chord notes, they are of shorter duration, etc.  So in principle yes, "any of the notes CDEGA over a C chord in any order that sound good", but most tonal styles will favor landing or heading towards the C E and G notes on a C chord, using the D and A to help get there.  

Most importantly, these rules are meant to be broken.  Great and interesting results can occur when you emphasize the D and A notes instead, so don't take any of this as dogma or necessity.  Best to fool with it and find what sounds good.  But to play it safe, the above can be a good guide to fall back on as needed.

Cheers
MRT

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## journeybear

Might as well talk about the minor scale too. It gets used in blues and rock a lot. Since you play guitar, and surely have played a lot in E, that would be E G A B D E/ (You should be able to see this uses the same notes as the G major pentatonic scale - no surprise, given their relative status.) Using numbers that's 1 3b 4 5 7b, and the major scale is 1 2 3 5 6. In terms of intervals or frets, it's 3-2-2-3-2 for minor, 2-2-3-2-3 for major.

For example: My band does a song by Ray Wylie Hubbard called "Cooler 'n Hell," an artfully constructed listing of a lot of cool things, and there is a line in the second verse about Lightnin' Hopkins and a pentatonic scale. It's where the song goes to the IV then I chords, and it's a perfect place to throw in a fill. The second or third time we did it I had the bright idea to throw in a descending pentatonic scale there - can't resist a good set-up - and the guitarist/singer just about cracked up, so I've done it ever since. To notate this  ... it's in 6/8, so ... starting right after it goes back to the I, it's: E E D / B A G / E D B / E (Hope that scans all right.) I have even taken to playing much of the upcoming solo in the same vein, just for fun, until I start feeling a bit constrained. Now, I doubt many people in the audience know what is going on there, either the term or the playing, but maybe some seeps in.

All I'm saying is this gets used, a lot, and it is a good way to build strong sounding blues and rock solos. You will hear it a lot in hip-hop and pop music these days. It's pretty basic, and some people who have advanced far beyond what most mere mortals can do with an instrument can get a bit snobby about people who rely on it too much for their liking. But hey - you gotta start somewhere, and getting good enough with this can help you get to play with the big boys, and that's a good thing.

As to the theory behind this, I'll have to leave that to others to explain. I just know it works, and a little bit how, but not so much why. That has never seemed too important to me.  :Wink:

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## amowry

Niles Hokkanen does a great job of demystifying pentatonic scales in some of his books. The two that I'm familiar with are _Hot Licks for Hot Picks and The Pentatonic Mandolin._

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## SternART

"The Pentatonic Mandolin" is fabulous!  His book on playing up the neck is great too........

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## jlavkuli

Many thanks everyone.    I started trying some of the suggestions and they worked better than I expected.  I just need some practice... commit them to muscle memory.

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## journeybear

Had another thought - in addition to muscle memory, think about sight memory (for lack of a better term). Scales follow a visible pattern on a fretboard, which makes them easy to locate. For example, as the G scale on the bottom two strings follows a repeated pattern of 

0-2-4-5
0-2-4-5

the pentatonic scale looks like

0-2-5
0-2-4

for starters. Pretty soon, you'll see these spots almost instinctively, and eventually feel them as well.

I think of the locations of notes in a scale on a fretboard as safe places to put your fingers. That is not to say the rest of the locations can't be worked in somehow, in the right situations, but most of the time those safe spots are where you want to land. 

Also, with the two dropped tones, the pentatonic scale is a quicker way to get up and down the fretboard.

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## Mark Robertson-Tessi

> Scales follow a visible pattern on a fretboard, which makes them easy to locate.


Good point.  Another useful pentatonic pattern you can visualize when you are still learning the notes is the following, spread across three strings:


|x|   |x|   |   |   
|R|   |x|   |x|
|   |   |x|   |x|   


The position marked capital R is the root note of the scale.  You can move this box pattern anywhere, of course.  For C major pentatonic, you can set it with the first finger (R) at the 3rd fret of the A string.  You can dip down to frets 5 and 7 for the G and A notes below, and you can run up the pentatonic by doing 3 5 7 on the A and then 3 5 on the E string.  It makes a nice little box that is easy to grab from.

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## jlavkuli

Great tips on the visual memory.  Journeybear I follow yours.    Mark, I am not sure I understand yours.  By the way, I watched your video.  Really like it.  Reminded me of the Punch Brothers... hope that isn't an insult.

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## Don Julin

Wow! That Wikipedia pentatonic info was fairly useless. Whenever there is a discussion here about pentatonic scales I feel the need to participate. I LOVE using pentatonic scales as a starting point whether I am improvising or composing. It is a sound that resonates with most humans that live on Earth. There is an interesting video on youtube featuring Bobby McFerrin where he demonstrates the power of pentatonic scale on a very non-musical audience. http://youtu.be/ne6tB2KiZuk

I recently watched Cave of Forgotten Dreams. A documentary by Werner Herzog about the Chauvet caves in France that have been sealed for 30,000 years that contain charcoal drawings and other remains (very well preserved) from the Paleolithic period. One of the things they found was a flute tuned to guess what! The pentatonic scale. Some people discredit these 5 notes and consider anyone using them to be on the same musical plane as Nigel Tufnel. (lead guitarist for Spinal Tap)

I disagree! I know I have posted this video before but I keep getting so many positive comments from people about this video that I am going to post it again. In this free instructional video, I demonstrate how to use 3 pentatonic scales as arpeggios in the key of G covering the chords G,C,D7.

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## journeybear

Mark's diagram is really the same, just with bars for frets and x's for fingers; this is more freed from the nut, while mine was measure by frets from the nut, but they're the same. If there were an O (for octave) to the right of the top right bar you would see the same pattern that I wrote out with numbers.

Don - Of course YOU don't agree with such a negative assessment of Nigel Tufnel's abilities, particularly with Nigel Tufnel Day approaching next Friday - yes, when all dates go to 11!  :Laughing:

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## jlavkuli

Thanks again to everyone.  A wealth of information!

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## mandolirius

> Wow! That Wikipedia pentatonic info was fairly useless.


What are you saying? Comedy has no value?

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## journeybear

Yeah, really - so serious it's funny. It might be absolutely correct on some musicomathematical theoretical analytical definition level, but for practical purposes ... I don't see much use for it. It may indeed explain why pentatonic scales work, but not how - and I tend to believe that "how" is more important than "why" in musical performance.

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## Gerard Dick

The beauty of the pentatonic scale is that 2 potentially sour notes have been left out.  the 4 and the 7 are deleted. what is left are the notes that are common to all 3 scales of the 1,4,5 chord pattern so common in western music.  For example in the key of G the chord most used are G, C, and D. Now the G scale goes g,a,b,c,d,e,f#,g.  Looking at the C scale there is no f# so we delete that.  Looking at the D scale the c is sharp so we delete the c as well.  What is left is a scale that has only notes common to all 3 scales.  It goes g,a,b,d,e,g or by the numbers in any scale 1,2,3,5,6,8 (1). Soloing with this scale makes it harder to play a note that totally doesn't fit.

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## aliza

That makes a whole lot of sense.  So in the key of C (c d e f g a b c), we leave out the F because it's not part of the G scale, and we leave out the B because it's not part of the F scale.  
Does that mean that the D should really only be played when playing the G chord and the A should only be played during the F chord? 
Or, does it not matter exactly which chord you're up to?

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## journeybear

I don't think it means a whole lot besides notes in the pentatonic scale of the key of a song are going to also be in the notes of the I, IV, and V chords of that key, as well as the VIm chord. It's more coincidence and back-reasoning than _raison d'etre._ It may help explain why it is so popular and why it gets used so much - it's safe - but not how it came into being. The pentatonic scale predates the I-IV-V progression by thousands of years, if not tens of thousands of years.

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## MandoSquirrel

Niles Hokkanen(mandocrucian) published a good little book called "Pentatonic Mandolin" that's very thorough.

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## John Gardinsky

I have posted this before but I'll do it again simply because it's good food for thought... 

Using the root note's pentatonic scale exclusively over a I,IV,V progression is a safe and effective tool for improvisation. 

Another approach is to change the scale to better suit each chord as they pass by in the progression. For an example lets use the key of G. Pick a very basic chord progression like G(I) to C(IV) to D(V) and back to G.  While on the G chord use the G major pentatonic (G,A,B,D,E,). When the progression shifts to C then use the C major pentatonic (C,D,E,G,A) and like wise with D(D,E,F#,A,B).  

You'll note that when these are all added together you end up with the notes from the major scale of our root note G (G,A,B,C,D,E,F#). So you are using the entire major scale to improvise with but you are confining yourself to safe sections of it over each chord.  Neat trick.

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## billkilpatrick

n - e - s - t - l - e - s (chocolate) ...

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## journeybear

And for minor: Hendrix - "Voodoo Chile (Slight Return)" opening riff.

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## Bertram Henze

G-a-g-a

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## billkilpatrick

> G-a-g-a


no-no - that's the catatonic scale

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## journeybear

Mee-YOW!!!

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## Bertram Henze

> no-no - that's the catatonic scale


Oh that ...then what's the ginantonic scale?  :Confused:

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## journeybear

Pretty sure that when you combine the ginantonic and pentatonic scales in improper amounts and ratios you run the risk of venturing into the catatonic scale. The catatonic scale is rarely (if ever) used, as it produces rather lugubrious music that is very hard to dance to.  :Wink:

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## billkilpatrick

> Oh that ...then what's the ginantonic scale?


in accordance with indian classical music, the "ginatonic" scale is performed in the evening at the end of a long and grueling day at the office, prior to the evening meal ... even if an extemporaneous practice session ensued at lunch.

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## greg_tsam

> n - e - s - t - l - e - s (chocolate) ...


You lost me, Mr. Bill.

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## JeffD

In short, you remove the fourth and seventh note of the regular major scale. Its cool because its ambiguous as major or minor, and as to movement - it doesn't seek resolution or aim for any particular chord, (it doesn't cause the listener to yearn for anything, way a G7 chord makes you want a C chord). That is why it can be used equally well in a huge variety of contexts.

That is my understanding.

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## billkilpatrick

> You lost me, Mr. Bill.


sorry - "retro" should be my middle name:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZi2og1YQJA

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## JonZ

> In short, you remove the fourth and seventh note of the regular major scale. Its cool because its ambiguous as major or minor, and as to movement - it doesn't seek resolution or aim for any particular chord, (it doesn't cause the listener to yearn for anything, way a G7 chord makes you want a C chord). That is why it can be used equally well in a huge variety of contexts.
> 
> That is my understanding.


If it has the 3rd, how can it be major/minor ambiguous?
Why, then, the minor pentatonic scale?

I asked on another thread, other than as a one-scale jam solution, why would one learn to play pentatonics that change with the chords, a la Don Julian, rather than learning arpeggios and scales? The only benefit I see would be that a lot of people already know the pattern.

Is there more to it?

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## journeybear

> You lost me, Mr. Bill.


It's an old jingle. You young whippersnappers wouldn't know about such things.  :Whistling: 

And I believe there is a 4 note in there, BTW!  :Disbelief: 

So that's a bad example. The main riff to "My Girl" by The Temptations is a pentatonic scale. Major.  :Wink:

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## greg_tsam

> It's an old jingle. You young whippersnappers wouldn't know about such things. 
> 
> And I believe there is a 4 note in there, BTW! 
> 
> So that's a bad example. The main riff to "My Girl" by The Temptations is a pentatonic scale. Major.


ha!  That's the great thing about hanging with the old timers.  They still call me young.  Love it.

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## JonZ

> I asked on another thread, other than as a one-scale jam solution, why would one learn to play pentatonics that change with the chords, a la Don Julian, rather than learning arpeggios and scales? The only benefit I see would be that a lot of people already know the pattern.
> 
> Is there more to it?


No one knows?????

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## Earl Gamage

Good question.  I think if you can hear where to use the 4 & 7 you use the whole scale and if you play enough and are skilled enough you can change scales when the chord changes.

If you can't do that you can often still play a pretty good melody with just the pentatonic .  Probably stating the obvious.

I guess that does not answer the question though, but thinking about it, changing pentatonic scales with the chords gets you a few more notes and is still safer (meaning avoiding probably dissonant notes)  than using the whole scale.

I think post #23 is the best explanation.

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## Mark Robertson-Tessi

> ...why would one learn to play pentatonics that change with the chords, a la Don Julian, rather than learning arpeggios and scales? The only benefit I see would be that a lot of people already know the pattern.
> 
> Is there more to it?


For someone learning to improvise, using the moveable pentatonic scale that follows the chords is a decent approach that doesn't demand heavy investment in music theory up front.  These need not be mutually exclusive, either.  The moveable PT is a good stepping stone to learning an expanded improv technique.  Think of power chords on the guitar.  If you show someone that is learning to play guitar a power chord shape, and also show where to place the shape for the different chords on the chart, they can be playing songs pretty quickly.  It has its limitations (as does a moveable PT approach), but it gets you playing stuff that can sound decent without having to learn about leading tones and modes and arpeggios and so forth.  Then, as the need for other techniques grows, they can learn more about the theory if desired.  The moveable PT is a subset of broader improvising theory, and I think it's one of the good entry points for learning to improvise.  

Cheers
MRT

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## JonZ

I know that the pentatonic in the tune key has only "safe notes" to play over the I IV and V. Does the pentatonic when changed with each chord provide you with more safe notes to play on each chord?

I am thinking about the approach in The Mandolin Players Guide to Bluegrass Improvisation. The author talks about adding additional notes "spices" to the pentatonic scale. Is the idea that the pentatonic, in bluegrass, is the "meat". So you really want to master it first? 

In other words, does working on pentatonic before diatonic help beginners avoid making a stew with too many spices and not enough meat? Or is it more just a matter of building your skills by adding prgressively more notes?

Or maybe a bit of both....

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## greg_tsam

Here's a demonstration of the pentatonic scale and our global recognition of it.

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## Mark Robertson-Tessi

> I know that the pentatonic in the tune key has only "safe notes" to play over the I IV and V. Does the pentatonic when changed with each chord provide you with more safe notes to play on each chord?


I'd argue that the movable PT is safer.  With a fixed PT scale on the I chord, when the four chord comes around you have no IV root note, and the third note of the root PT scale will give you a Major seventh sound (i.e. E note over F major chord), which may not always be a desired sound.  On the V chord, you lack a leading tone, which can lead to a bit of aimlessness; plus, the tonic note over the V chord can potentially sound off in some cases.  Moveable PT avoids those situations. Whether this is a feature or a prescription for monotony can be debated, but I think it's, well, safe to say it's safer.

And yeah, I'd say the spice analogy is good, but it's not the only way to get from A to B and beyond.  But it is a good way to look at a progressive method for learning tonal improvisation that gives good yields up front.

Cheers
MRT

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## JonZ

I suppose you could skip pentatonics all together and get right into diatonics, and still end up in the same place. But you are right about the up front motivation factor.

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## JeffD

> If it has the 3rd, how can it be major/minor ambiguous?
> Why, then, the minor pentatonic scale?


Ooops. Right you are. Its not major/minor ambiguous.

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## JeffD

> Is the idea that the pentatonic, in bluegrass, is the "meat". So you really want to master it first? 
> 
> In other words, does working on pentatonic before diatonic help beginners avoid making a stew with too many spices and not enough meat? Or is it more just a matter of building your skills by adding prgressively more notes?
> ....


While this may be true, pentatonics are were not conceived as pedegogical tools. The ambiguity as to tonal movement is the musical reason. They "stay in place".

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## Don Julin

> ...why would one learn to play pentatonics that change with the chords, a la Don Julian, rather than learning arpeggios and scales? The only benefit I see would be that a lot of people already know the pattern.
> 
> Is there more to it?


JonZ, yes there is more to it. What you may be missing here is that the technique of playing the changes by using pentatonic scales is not a replacement for learning chords and arpeggios, but an algorithm (Am I speaking your language yet?) where you are using elements of both scales and arpeggios. This approach is impossible if you dont already know both scales and arpeggios. So as to not mislead any other readers, I am in no way suggesting that a working knowledge of major and minor scales and arpeggios in all keys is something that can be skipped over and replaced by a few pentatonic scales. That would be be ridiculous! As far as The only benefit I see would be that a lot of people already know the pattern. I am not sure what you are talking about. What is THE pattern? I believe you may be referring to technique used by our friend Nigel Tufnel from the band Spinal Tap. 

Let's look at a song in G that uses the standard chords G,C,and D. The G major scale as we all know has the notes G,A,B,C,D,E,F#. The chord tones of G (us jazz guys don't call them arpeggios) are G,B,D. The chord tones of C are C,E,G, and The chord tones of D are D,F#,A. The object of playing the changes is to create melodies that follow the chord progression from one chord to the next. Making good melodies out of only 3 notes can be done but is difficult. By expanding each arpeggio to include 2 more notes (notes from the G scale) we open our possibilities for creating melody while staying close to the original triad.

The pentatonic scale for G major is G,A,B,D,E. If we want to get really technical and loose most of our readers we can call that a G6/9 arpeggio but I just think of it as G major. Making melody out of this group of notes is much easier because we tend to hear these notes together as demonstrated in the Bobby McFerrin video. For a fun project, get sheet music for a dozen or so very standard songs. This could include country classics, hymns, bluegrass songs, Motown or Reggae songs even classic rock songs. Analyse every melody note as to how it relates to the chord being played. You will find quite a few chord tones but notice how many times the 6th and the 2nd appear over major chords. So what do all of these musical forms all have in common? Good melodies. 

So by playing the appropriate pentatonic scale for each chord we have a group of notes that is easy to create melody from and still sounds like the chord because it is an arpeggio with 2 additional scale tones. If you follow this theory (and practice your butt off) for the chords G, C, and D, you will end up with 3 groups of notes (pentatonic) that will function as arpeggios resulting in more melody. 

Keep in mind that this is only the tip of the iceberg. For instance for a more Americana type of sound I may use a slurred or ambiguous third. For a bluesy sound I may add the flatted 7th, for a slick, 1970s kind of sound I may add the major 7th. 

OK I dont think I can add any more length to this post without running the risk of crashing a bunch of computers. So in answer to the original question why would one learn to play pentatonics that change with the chords, I have used 648 words to say..Because it sounds good!

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## JonZ

So,  when you play a G major scale over a G chord, would the C and F# typically be _less_ melodic than the other 5 notes? (Since we are talking about asthetics, let's just say "less common in melodies".)

I am guessing that there is a hierarchy where the chord tones are the most common notes in the tunes we play, followed by the rest of the pentatonic notes, followed by the rest of the diatonic notes. With a few tweaks here and there for style. Does that sound about right?

By the way, I hope you understand that, when I say that something doesn't makes sense to me, I am not trying to say you are wrong. I just want to be clear about the part I don't understand. I appreciate your explanation.

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## Mark Robertson-Tessi

> I am guessing that there is a hierarchy where the triads are the most common notes in the tunes we play, followed by the rest of the pentatonic notes, followed by the rest of the diatonic notes.


And followed by the chromatic notes.  Will vary by styles, of course.

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## Don Julin

JonZ, I understand that you are not passing judgement on this pentatonic concept or my take on it. Pentatonic scales are a bit of a hot button issue with me because they get written off so often as something only a teenager with 2 months experience would ever consider using. My opinion about pentatonic scales was shaped by listening to guys like Dawg and hearing how pentatonic melodies that follow chord changes with a great rhythmic drive and syncopation can create some of the mandolin music that inspired me to spend my life playing this little 8 string beast.

As far as the hierarchy of harmony notes you are on the right path but you may want to dig a little deeper. You seem like a guy that like to know the inter-workings of things. You may want to go all the way back to the 1500s and take a look at the basic rules of counterpoint. Now much has changed in 500 years but the concept is still alive. Back in those days the church had a lot to do with what notes we could play together and what notes we couldn't. Now we have the freedom to combine notes that would have resulted in being burned at the stake. In the beginning there was melody and it was good. Over time we started experimenting with 2 notes (counterpoint), and eventually 3 notes sounding at the same time. This is where the idea of triads was born. So chords are not just some random thing that happens when we play melody, chords are built from harmonic lines and intervals that sound good with the melody. Today, certain music forms like jazz have evolved to the point where the soloist or improviser is playing counterpoint or harmony lines to a melody that is no longer present. 

No hard feelings and I hope some of this is helpful.

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## JeffD

> So in answer to the original question “why would one learn to play pentatonics that change with the chords”, I have used 648 words to say……..Because it sounds good!


I think this is a real important point. All of the technical stuff attempts to explain why it sounds good, or determine the pattern in which this piece of "sounding good" fits, or to come up with a way of repeatedly predictably achieving the good sound. But the theory all comes after the sounding good.

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## JonZ

Thanks Don. This is something that I have been wondering about for a while. I think I need to spend a little more time working with pentatonics to "feel" what you are explaining.

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## pickloser

When I was more of a beginner than I am now, there were two major benefits of learning to play pentatonic patterns over chord progressions.  It was a _positive approach_, telling me to play what had the best chance of sounding good.  It also allowed me to develop _muscle memory_ for what notes were "good" over a chord.  

I had been drilling scales, and I knew those were the source of available notes in tunes in the key of that scale.  But my negative approach of trying to "avoid" bad notes, usually the 4 and the major 7 of the chord root, was not successful.  If my brain was saying, "don't play that F note," my fingers only heard "F" and went straight there.  The more I thought about a note, even if my thoughts were, "stay the heck off that note," the more my fingers wanted to find it.  And find it they did with frustrating regularity.  

Now, the pentatonic base of "good" notes serves as the stock to which I can add other musical flavors--like the b3 or b7 or double stops or arpeggios or licks.  Pentatonics also give me confidence to move on the mandolin.  After having figured out how to connect those notes up and down the fretboard (still working on this), I can direct my fingers to "head for some higher (or lower) notes, knowing that if I stay on my pattern, it will sound pretty good, and if I slide off the road, I know how to get back on.  Sometime, the slides off the road sound good and sometimes they don't, but if I get back to the "good notes" without panicking, then it at least sounds like I'm playing with some intent behind it.  

I think a "pentatonic approach" gets a bad rap, because too many people get a few pentatonic patterns under their fingers and then stop trying to add to their knowledge and abilities.  They sound the same today as they did when the patterns were first acquired.

I also have a sneaking suspicion that all these named things--pentatonics, arpeggios, modes, are just ways developed to get one's head around sounds and how they work together.  I think maybe the really enlightened players and "naturals" don't need to think in those terms any more, and maybe some never did.  (Of course the terms are necessary to communicate with others.)

Thanks Don!

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## Bertram Henze

> I also have a sneaking suspicion that all these named things--pentatonics, arpeggios, modes, are just ways developed to get one's head around sounds and how they work together.  I think maybe the really enlightened players and "naturals" don't need to think in those terms any more, and maybe some never did.


It may look like these words are for people who have brains instead of ears, but the main objective is to be able to talk about it - just what we are doing this very moment. 

It also does not help realtime while playing. I am one of those "naturals" you mentioned (I don't know about "enlightened", though) when I am doing ITM accompaniment; I don't think about what chords are right, I just hear them. I could rationalize what I did afterwards, but I never bother. The problems arise when I play melody and some newbie guitar player suddenly asks "what are the chords?": I don't know the chords, and I can't speak while playing. In ITM, the accompanist is doing the improvisation and he is supposed not to ask but to know.

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## CaskAle

I'm new to the Mandolin, only been playing 2 months, and I'd like to thank Don for posting that video, it was excellent.  :Smile:

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## JonZ

Good explanation, Pickloser.

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## JeffD

> I think a "pentatonic approach" gets a bad rap, because too many people get a few pentatonic patterns under their fingers and then stop trying to add to their knowledge and abilities.


I think you are right.

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## Chip Booth

AAAHHHH pentatonic scales!  Ya'll know what I am gonna say...




> Pentatonic scales are a bit of a hot button issue with me because they get written off so often as something only a teenager with 2 months experience would ever consider using.


Don, I come at this issue with nothing but respect for you and your teachings methods.  What I wonder about is the difference in a trained player such as yourself investigating pentatonics and coming at them from a deconstructive standpoint vs. a novice who is learning and doesn't understand the diatonic approach just yet.  Pentatonics leave out so much of the "good stuff" in my opinion that I have a hard time recommending them as a primary course of scale study.  of course there is much more to be learned and used that straight up diatonic patterns also, but it seems to me that studying one 7 note scale in the context of a specific key is great way to understand how to get the most of a small pallet of notes.




> I think a "pentatonic approach" gets a bad rap, because too many people get a few pentatonic patterns under their fingers and then stop trying to add to their knowledge and abilities... 
> 
> I also have a sneaking suspicion that all these named things--pentatonics, arpeggios, modes, are just ways developed to get one's head around sounds and how they work together.  I think maybe the really enlightened players and "naturals" don't need to think in those terms any more, and maybe some never did.


Pickloser, this is a great statement and I agree completely with it.

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## mandolirius

> I also have a sneaking suspicion that all these named things--pentatonics, arpeggios, modes, are just ways developed to get one's head around sounds and how they work together.  I think maybe the really enlightened players and "naturals" don't need to think in those terms any more, and maybe some never did.  (Of course the terms are necessary to communicate with others.)


This is unquestionably true. I've been involved in many workshops, both in bluegrass and jazz and some of the best players are the worst teachers, precisely because of what you say. In some cases they were being asked to explain a thought process they never actually went through.

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## Chip Booth

Soon after I began teaching a student asked me to explain how I played a specific solo that I had recorded.  It was one of the best things that ever happened to me.  I listened to it and realized I couldn't explain or even identifying exactly what was happening.  I put the recording on the Slowdowner, transcribed myself, and then analyzed what I had played.  Being able to specifically examine those ideas caused the beginning of an explosion of creativity based on having a better understanding of what came naturally to me.  Adding the theory on top of it allowed to push some ideas much farther than I ever would have otherwise.  It also greatly enhanced my ability to teach, as I began to really think about how I do the things the do, and what the process was for me that allowed to get to that place and how I can recreate that path (and hopefully shorten it) for my students.

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## mandocrucian

> I think a "pentatonic approach" gets a bad rap, because too many people get a few pentatonic patterns under their fingers *and then stop trying to add to their knowledge and abilities*.


*Exactly.* Or those that mistakenly think that "pentatonics" are limited to only 12356 and 1b345b7*.  Pentatonics can be thought of as a triad arpeggio with a couple passing notes or (in the case of the minor pentatonic) a m7 with the passing 4th. Or they can (also) be thought of a stripped-down diatonic scale.  So they are half-way between a triad and a diatonic scale. Or you can think of them as extended chord arpeggios (depending on they way you access the notes)

*Dorian pent, Okinwan pent, Japanese minor pentatonic(s), dominant pentatonic etc. etc. etc. ....you can extract "pentatonics" from virtually any scale or mode or ethnic scale/mode.  If you can manipulate a major pentatonic in various patterns, you can apply the thought process to whatever alternate pentatonic(s) (a modification of a pitch or two) give you the sonic effect(s) you want.

Just because someone may add in some other pitches (diatonic or chromatic) into a phrase, the baseline thinking may still be "pentatonic" in nature.  Just cause I might 'ornament/embelish' with a few lower chromatic neighbor tones doesn't negate a pentatonic skeleton:  G(F#G)  A  (A#)B  D(C#D)  g  (D#)E   D  B  (G#)A  G.  And a quick hammer/pull or trill or bend from the 6the to a b7, or from the 3rd to 4th, doesn't 'really' transform it full diatonic.  God, I hate those *Guitar World* mag interviews where some metal player completely overanalyzes his solo with every music description/scale name/etc. in his vocabulary. (when it can all be summed up as...._mostly minor pentatonic with an occasional passing note thrown in.)_

Any of the criticisms applied to the pentatonics could just as easily be said of the licks played out of the moveable chop shape. Those Monroe-style licks can just as easily be run into the ground with overuse and repetitiveness if you can't go beyond those.

As far as teaching.......one has to break things down into particular components to focus on (for awhile) so the student can get a handle on that particular concept(s) before *moving on to the next concept*, which might be anything from doubletstops, shifting, chromatics, slurring, positions, bla bla bla....  You learn addition, then subtraction, then multiplication and then division, somewhere fractions come in...but it's all just arithmatic, which is just the simplest form of math.  You don't just stop at simple mulitplication...._(I prefer to use the "multiplying approach")_

*ALL of it* can be reduced to very _simple ideas_.  Complicated stuff????.....it's just doing simple stuff, *but* with more/extra notes (horizontally or vertically),or with phrasing nuances and articulations and/orornamentations, or overlaying scales/rhythms against a different meter or tonal center, or playing it much more rapdily. Or it's doing two (or more) different simple parts/lines, _simultaneously_. (Walking and chewing gum at the same time! or juggling 3 balls instead of just 1!)

*Everything* can be thought of as a *variation*_ or an embellishment of something simpler_ which has preceded it.

Niles H

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## Mark Robertson-Tessi

Well said, Niles.  There are many routes to travel when learning, and many ways to distill music theory.  Anything that is overused will have its critics, but that doesn't dismiss the validity of the thing itself.  

Cheers
MRT

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## roady43

> The beauty of the pentatonic scale is that 2 potentially sour notes have been left out.  the 4 and the 7 are deleted. what is left are the notes that are common to all 3 scales of the 1,4,5 chord pattern so common in western music.  For example in the key of G the chord most used are G, C, and D. Now the G scale goes g,a,b,c,d,e,f#,g.  Looking at the C scale there is no f# so we delete that.  Looking at the D scale the c is sharp so we delete the c as well.  What is left is a scale that has only notes common to all 3 scales.  It goes g,a,b,d,e,g or by the numbers in any scale 1,2,3,5,6,8 (1). Soloing with this scale makes it harder to play a note that totally doesn't fit.



One step for easy improvisation is when I tell my pupils to play a scale on D and A string without using the 2nd finger. I play a simple pattern on the G string repeatedly with it like G A B A. Then they are asked to alter the scale for whatever they like (as well rythmically) but still 2nd finger is "prohibited". There is no possibility to fail, nothing can be "wrong". Big fun, best results for listening, understanding - musical communication!

roady43

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## Jim Broyles

> And for minor: Hendrix - "Voodoo Chile (Slight Return)" opening riff.


I'm pretty sure that's major pent. Minor pent would be the opening riff from "Radar Love" or Deep Purple's "Pictures of Home."

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## Mark Robertson-Tessi

Most of Jimmy Page's solo on Stairway to Heaven is minor pent (occasionally moved with the chord, but mostly sticking to the key)

Cheers
MRT

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## jlavkuli

I am the guy who started this thread.  I am overwhelmed by the responses.  I have rad them all.  I understand about 25% of what I read and did not think I remembered anything.  But tonight my wife was playing scales on her fiddle and I followed along with her on my OM.  I had a eureka moment.   Some of what I read suddenly made sense.   My thanks to everyone.

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## greg_tsam

Niles always blows my mind when he starts talking music theory.   :Cool:

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## JonZ

How many people out there feel that practicing pentatonic "examples" written out by someone else is effective? I have tried it, but found it to be not particularly sticky. What is working better for me is creating patterns, like "Up three notes back one. Repeat.", and working with them over one octave, two octaves and chord changes. I think it is because it involves active learning. I have to figure out how to apply the pattern myself, rather than playing what someone has written down.

I think the examples are effective for showing what a certain patter can do, but to really learn it, you have to take it apart and put it back together yourself.

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## DSDarr

> I think the examples are effective for showing what a certain patter can do, but to really learn it, you have to take it apart and put it back together yourself.


I agree. I see breaks written out with pentatonic patterns and I have a very hard time remembering them. Much more effective for me is to create my own and try to do that on the fly. That said, I tend to play pretty uninteresting stuff when I do it my way. I'm working on expanding my vocabulary though...  a moving target for sure.

David

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