# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Titebond III

## Charles E.

I will not hijack the broken headstock thread but it seems to me that folks were debating Titebond verses Hot Hide Glue. Can I assume the debate is with the Original Titebond? I recall a Fine Woodworking article a year or two ago that tested many common glues, Titebond, Titebond III, Gorilla Glue, Epoxy (West System I think) Hot Hide Glue and others. In their tests (as I recall) Titebond III trumped all others followed by Hot Hide Glue. Gorilla Glue did the worst.
Now, I am a violin maker and repairman with well over twenty years in the game and my glue of choice is fresh HHG. That said, I have done some repairs with Titebond III with good results on school instruments (charity cases) ie, they never failed.
Titebond III is waterproof and supposed to be stronger then the original, any thoughts?

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## ianbarton

I do not build instruments (although I want to try!).  However, In my experience with titebond (1,2,&3), gorilla Glue, and west system, they are all stronger than the wood is.  It is never the glue itself that fails.  The failure is that the area that has been glued has been weakened by the fact that is not a solid piece of wood, and when you cause either excessive or undue stress on a particular joint, the wood around the glue join fails.  Now, thats my experience, but again...ive never built an instrument, only boats and furniture.

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## sunburst

> I recall a Fine Woodworking article a year or two ago that tested many common glues, Titebond, Titebond III, Gorilla Glue, Epoxy (West System I think) Hot Hide Glue and others. In their tests (as I recall) Titebond III trumped all others followed by Hot Hide Glue. Gorilla Glue did the worst....
> Titebond III is waterproof and supposed to be stronger then the original, any thoughts?


First off, may of us are old enough to remember when Titebond was Titebond and there were no IIs and IIIs (sort of like Budweiser was Budweiser and there were no Bud Light Ice Draught sort of marketing things going on), so when we refer to Titebond we're referring to the the original Titebond like we have for 30 years (old habits die hard). Sometimes we are using the term sort of like "Kleenex", and we actually mean any Titebond-like AR glue.

Any thoughts?
Here's one: Did they test the glues and adhesives on broken pegheads? Did they test again after the peghead broke again and was glued again?
Hot hide glue is strong enough to hold a broken headstock and then some. If a glue is stronger, what additional benefit is there? A failed hide glue joint can be re-glued with less trouble than nearly any other glue.
Here's another: Did they leave the tested broken peghead (probably not, since there wasn't one) under string tension in a hot car in the middle of summer to see if the glue joint survived the heat?

It is the total set of advantages that make hot hide glue the preferred glue for most joints in lutherie, not it's tested strength alone. Testing of glue joints generally conforms to a standard method, especially if it is to be a repeatable test, and extreme temperatures are generally not part of the test. Waterproof means nothing for instrument work. If the instrument is left in water more damage than separated glue joints will result, so there is no advantage there.
We need to choose our glues and adhesives according to the purposes for which they are used. There are times when superior tensile strength can be an advantage and times when it is not. Same for sheer strength, same for water resistance, for heat resistance, and so forth. There is no one-size-fits-all glue or adhesive that is best for everything from joining spruce tops to building boats to holding the rear view mirror to the windshield to holding a crown on your tooth. We simply choose the glue or adhesive that does each job best, though imperfect it may be.

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## Charles E.

Points well taken John, Also, as for Titebond III being waterproof, if it did fail it would make it that more difficult to remove for reglueing.

Just out of curiosity John what is your source for Hot Hide Glue granules?

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## CedarSlayer

I have had major projects totally ruined because I used Tightbond 2 or 3.  One of them needed to be waterproof, the other did not.  It was the use of Tightbond 3 that taught me the value of hot hide glue.  I do like tightbond 2 quite a bit as a paint.  Thin it with water and paint it to soak in.  It will waterproof, preserve, and create a surface that glue will not bond with.

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## mirwa

There are glues for different jobs and purposes, most well setup repair shops use hide glue, one of the advantages of hide glue is the ability to glue something up and then be stringing it up shortly there after, as time costs money.

On the other hand ar glues (titebond) are used for ease of use, plenty of work time aligning, you can have an open pot and just roller the stuff on, this is why most manufacturers use it, all about ease of use

Then you have epoxys, this is for those things that just dont glue up, example a spruce top on an ovation fibreglass body, but I would not use an epoxy on a cracked headstock as IMO its not very strong, but over a large surface area its strong enough to hold a top on etc

Glues arent always glues, there are times and places for everything

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## ianbarton

> but I would not use an epoxy on a cracked headstock as IMO its not very strong


not arguing that epoxy should be used in this case, but just out of curiosity, what epoxy are you using that you find it not to be strong?   (cus i use epoxy a lot so im interested in learning more about different kinds...)

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## sunburst

The difference between epoxy and most glues is; generally, glues have greater adhesive strength than cohesive strength. That means they stock to things better than they stick to themselves. The molecules of glue are chemically attracted to the wood (or whatever suitable material) more than they are to themselves. That means, the glue layer needs to be thin for best strength because the dried glue itself is not a very strong solid, and so a thin glue line means a higher percentage of glue molecules are adhered to the wood and a lower percentage are adhered to one another. In theory, a one-molecule-thick glue layer would be strongest.
Epoxy, on the other hand, has lower adhesive strength than most commonly used glues (when they are properly used) and higher cohesive strength, so it is a far better gap filler than most glues. That, and it's waterproof qualities, are the main advantages of epoxy. When things don't fit well, epoxy will hold them better than many glues because of it's higher cohesive strength. On the other hand, when things _do_ fit well, an appropriate glue will create a stronger joint because of it's greater adhesive strength.

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John Kelly, 

michaelcj, 

Nevin, 

Pete Summers, 

Randolph, 

Tommcgtx, 

Violingirl

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## ianbarton

wow, thanks for the info John!  very well explained!  thanks much!

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## Jeff Mando

Thanks, John!  I learn something new everyday on the Cafe.  Like I've mentioned before, I worked at a busy vintage guitar shop and repaired hundreds of peghead cracks with the old Original Titebond and never had one fail.

I would add that I own two Gibson electrics that I have played in night clubs for years, both have had the pegheads repaired over 20+ years ago and have never given me any problems.

It should go without saying, I would NEVER put a guitar in a hot car in the summer time, whether it has a peghead repair or not.  Just common sense.  Heck, somebody might steal it!  That would be worse than a broken peghead, IMHO.  I also would not store my guitar in a hot attic.  Or in an igloo in the Yukon.  I also don't walk through doorways with the guitar on and bang it into doorframes.  I also don't lean it up against the wall or an amp--I use a guitar stand.  Just common sense should work for ya.  Now, it goes without saying that accidents happen before you know it and a couple beers might make us less cautious, etc., just be aware and you'll be fine.

I did have one customer, a punk rock kid who had an Electra MPC electric guitar that had been broken and repaired twice, I did not do the previous repairs on it which involved dowels, etc.  I got to "fix" it on the third time it was broken.  I cleaned off the glue the best I could, glued it with Titebond and clamped it.  Let it dry, strung it up and it seemed fine again.  He was happy and invited me to see his band play.  When I saw them, I found out why it kept breaking--part of his stage antics involved hitting the drummer's cymbal with his peghead "for effect".  Punk Rock, you know.  Needless to say, no repairman can repair poor judgement.  I haven't heard back from him, so it either held or maybe he got a metal-necked instrument?!!

My point is we don't know how these instruments are treated by their owners, do we?  Hopefully with respect and care.

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## sunburst

> My point is we don't know how these instruments are treated by their owners, do we?


So we have to assume the worst...

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## Pete Jenner

> So we have to assume the worst...

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## Cal

Pete Jenner's post reminded me of this this song which sums up my view too of some bands' idea of making a musical statement.  😱

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6-HoQRHP1k

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## Michael Lewis

There is some interesting reading on the labels of Titebond products, if you care to know how to use them.  I was surprised to find that Titebond II (or was it III?) is not recommended for joints that are stressed or carry a load.  Hmmmmmm  check it out.

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## Tavy

> There is some interesting reading on the labels of Titebond products, if you care to know how to use them.  I was surprised to find that Titebond II (or was it III?) is not recommended for joints that are stressed or carry a load.  Hmmmmmm  check it out.


My bottle of Titebond original has a dire warning on it - "Not for structural use" - no doubt written by a lawyer !

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## Dale Ludewig

Well, if the Franklin people are actually serious about that, you might as well not use it at all and just go for a rubber band.  Heck, why bother with a joint at all?  just lay the two pieces of wood beside each other!  That would save a lot of time.

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## Bill Snyder

AR glues are NOT for structural use. When we have laminated stair stringers for long, curved stairs we don't touch AR glues like Titebond. Any glue that will cold creep is not good for structural uses.

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## Michael Lewis

And that's why I use and prefer HOT HIDE GLUE most of the time.

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## sunburst

> Just out of curiosity John what is your source for Hot Hide Glue granules?


This thread just resurfaced and I just saw this question.
The most recent batch of glue I bought is Behlens. I had had Behlens hide glue before and it was sort of dark colored, but I saw a new batch that someone else bought and it was nice and clear and worked like a good batch, so I bought a can. When that is nearly used up, I'll be looking into getting a larger quantity directly from Milligan & Higgins most likely.

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## Pete Jenner

I have nearly run out of that light coloured Behlens hide glue so I bought a bag of U-Beaut pearl hide glue. It's much darker and it stinks like a herd of angry elephants. What a pong!!!! POOOH!!!

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## Tavy

Mine's Behlen's, but quite dark - I also have some cake-makers gelatine which is completely clear if I really need it (and less smelly - no elephants in the room!).

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## High Lonesome Valley

HHG vs. PVA's.

PSI in excess of thousands of pounds is good either way.  As the force is mostly lateral, creep (my new found word of the day) with any glue shouldn't be an issue, we're not talking about glued on bridges here.  Broken headstock/neck joints occur because of getting whacked, falling, getting sat on, etc., a horizontal pressure; occasionally a dry joint. For the life of me, I can't imagine more than 800 psi from some loving family member stepping on the headstock joint.  So I think it all come down to prepping the surfaces and rehearsing the clamping.

That's why I always use epoxy.  And it's never failed.  Love the stickiness factor, and it doesn't melt down in a hot car, God forbid, like every other glue.  Also fills in the little bits.  I don't consider this repair a "reversibility" issue for the purposes of collectibility, except in dry joints.

Just a thought, has anyone ever tried flesh blood?  What would be the test PSI for activated fibrin?

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## Michael Lewis

Lonesome, I have news for you.  Epoxy gets soft and seriously creepy about 140F or so, about like Titebond etc.

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Dale Ludewig

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## Jim Adwell

> Lonesome, I have news for you.  Epoxy gets soft and seriously creepy about 140F or so, about like Titebond etc.


And yet the epoxy used to repair my motorcycle side case got much hotter than that for years without failing, or getting 'seriously creepy'.  And no one that uses carbon fiber neck reinforcements seems to worry about using epoxy to glue them in place.

I don't like epoxy; it's messy and smelly and probably causes cancer and who knows what else, it's annoying to clean up before it's set and a pain to remove after it's set, but heat resistance is the last thing I'd worry about with a good slow setting epoxy.  The five minute stuff, though, well...

Here's a link for ya: http://www.westsystem.com/ss/if-you-...take-the-heat/

NB: if you are exposing your expensive wooden musical instrument to 140 degree temperatures, you're doing it wrong.

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## siminoff

I don't like words like "never" or "ever" but I'd strongly urge to never use Titebond II or Titebond III for luthierie. These are great adhesives but are intended for outdoor use. As previously mentioned, they are waterproof (a bad thing if you need to steam a joint apart), but more importantly, they never really harden. They stay soft for an extended period so that they can change shape with the joints they attempt to bond - which is beneficial as the wood around them weathers, twists, and moves. If you are not using hide glue or hard fish glue, Titebond Regular Glue (red label) is a good general purpose luthierie adhesive for wood-to-wood connections. ..R

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Bernie Daniel, 

Jake Wildwood, 

Jim Adwell, 

Rob Zamites

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## CedarSlayer

Bob Smalser is a fairly brilliant woodworker.  Here is an article of his comparing glue strength when you want to repair a glue job.   

It is quite clear that tightbond is poor stuff if you ever want to be able to repair.  If you use tightbond on furniture, that furniture is now destined for the curb.  To use it on an instrument would be horrid.

Bob

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## peter.coombe

> To use it on an instrument would be horrid.


I don't think so.  Epoxy is never used for structural repairs in musical instruments, and certainly not epoxy to Titebond, so that test is totally irrelevant.  It is well known that old Titebond needs to be cleaned up before re-gluing, and if you do that there is no issue with repair work.  It is extra work that does not need to be done with hide glue, but it is standard practice.  Titebond original has been used on millions of guitars and mandolins.  Are you saying they are all horrid?  Same applies to furniture.

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Jake Wildwood, 

Jim Adwell, 

Pete Jenner

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## CedarSlayer

> I don't think so. Epoxy is never used for structural repairs in musical instruments, and certainly not epoxy to Titebond, so that test is totally irrelevant. It is well known that old Titebond needs to be cleaned up before re-gluing, and if you do that there is no issue with repair work. It is extra work that does not need to be done with hide glue, but it is standard practice. Titebond original has been used on millions of guitars and mandolins. Are you saying they are all horrid? Same applies to furniture.


Here lies the problem.   When a craftsman and an artist takes select and often rare materials and transforms them into an instrument, it seems quite sad when the methods used will ultimately shorten the life of that instrument.   Tightbond is nice enough for now.  And grabbing a bottle of it off the shelf is certainly easier than heating a pot of hide glue and learning how to use it well.  But a good instrument, well made and well cared for, can last and bring joy for hundreds of years.   Hide glue is a much better archival adhesive.   Starting out with archival grade materials gives your instrument a much better chance of surviving the ages.

If the repair requires scraping away material, or if the repair requires using an acid that can soak into wood to break down the glue, the result of each successive repair will not be a full restoration but instead a partial amelioration.

The horrid part is when a brilliantly crafted instrument has it's life cut short due to common practice.   I would not refuse an instrument simply because the wrong glue was used, nor would I try to replace that glue on an instrument.  If however I was going to commission an instrument or decide between two instruments, the choice of glues used would factor very strongly in the decision.

Oddly enough there is a place where I would prefer a tightbond made instrument.  For a backpacking beater, tightbond might be just the thing.  

In the majority of luthery I would absolutely agree that epoxy is not ideal.  I have had to use epoxy for structural repair on a musical instrument.   I am not sure what other adhesive I could have used to repair a fiberglass guitar.

Bob

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## Bill Snyder

Titebond not tightbond.

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## peter.coombe

Mmm, the old old argument about hide glue vs Titebond and the other modern glues.  Almost is a religion to some people.  The argument rages in the guitar world as well.   Personally I don't think it matters what you use, there is no such thing as a perfect glue.  Each has it's advantages and disadvantages, including hide glue, and you use what ever works best for you for a particular purpose, and there is nothing wrong with using a number of different glues in one instrument.  Titebond II is supposed to be a no no, but way back when I did not know any better I made a few mandolins with it and 20 years later they are all still doing fine.  They will probably still be doing fine when I am long dead, but I do hope none need to be repaired!  A well known violin maker told me he uses Titebond II in his violins (shock horror!).  That did surprise me, but whatever, if it works for him so what.  The purist hide glue people are no doubt unaware that some of the high price top mandolin makers don't use hide glue for every wood to wood join.  But I'm not telling.

Maybe some one can enlighten me, but I am unaware of any music instrument that has had it's life cut short because it was glued together with Titebond original.

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Jim Adwell

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## CedarSlayer

I have studied your methods quite intensively, Peter.  While I will continue to differ with you on the subject of Titebond, I have the highest respect for your work.  If anyone can manage to overcome the obvious disadvantages of using Titebond in luthery, it would be you!

I just feel for the poor folk 300 years from now trying to decide how to restore one of your instruments.

Bob

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## peter.coombe

Actually I don't use Titebond much at all.  It does get used for gluing on wood bindings, but that is about it.  I have been using LMI white for most wood to wood joins because it is more like hide glue than any other wood glue I know of.  Unfortunately it is no longer available and I have been evaluating the new LMI yellow glue.  I don't like it as much as the old LMI glue because it does not dry as hard, but it does have some other advantages.  Hide glue is now a prohibited import into Australia, so I can no longer get the good clear stuff from the USA.  As Pete has already pointed out, the dark stuff we can get here stinks something awful and I can't stand it.  Our dogs love it though.  Some Luthiers have got it into the country with other parts, but they risk the whole shipment getting confiscated with no compensation.  The logic of the quarantine ban defies me.  Hide glue is cooked during manufacture so there is no chance of bugs in it.

It is rare for a mandolin (or guitar) to last 300 years.  They are not like violins.  Twice as many strings and longer scale length makes a big difference.

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## Tavy

Peter - have you considered buying gelatin instead of Hide Glue?  It's much more expensive (but in the great scheme of things still cheap), and a slightly different gram-strength to regular Hide glue, but clear and odourless and does the job just as well as far as one can tell.  I bet the catering industry would sell you a big jar for not much more than the cost of HG actually?

Another tip pinched from a certain Frank Ford....

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## peter.coombe

No, I am not desperate to use hide glue.  I don't stress out about glue, there are many more important things to worry about.

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## tom.gibson

> Hide glue is now a prohibited import into Australia, so I can no longer get the good clear stuff from the USA.


When did it become prohibited? I ordered some last year without problems. Sounds like I better not waste it...

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## Pete Jenner

I can find no mention of it here.

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## peter.coombe

Pete

Maybe it is not a prohibited item in terms of Customs, but AQIS will not let it through, and if they detect it the entire shipment will be considered "contaminated".  You are looking in the wrong place, it is not Customs that will stop importation.  It comes under animal material, which is absolutely not allowed into the country by AQIS because of the risk of importing diseases.  I don't have any personal experience, but some of the guitar makers have had a shipment with hide glue seized and destroyed.  Others have been lucky and it went through, but only because AQIS did not detect it.

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## Pete Jenner

I see. Thanks Peter.

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## Jim Adwell

I wonder why this Australian luthier supply company sells hide glue, then.

http://luthierssupplies.com.au/produ...roducts_id=405

Someone might want to ask them how it is they have hide glue to sell.  Maybe there is a manufacturer in Australia?

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## Pete Jenner

There is at least one manufacturer in Australia and that's the one who sells the smelly stuff. Perhaps there are two. I don't use ALS much because they are too expensive. It's quite often cheaper to import things from the US.

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## Rick Turner

Haven't been around here for a while, but here I is...

Another advantage in using HHG are that if you're doing a repair and everything fits, the glue line will virtually disappear.  I've reglued a couple of completely busted through heels on our ukes...one a stage accident, the other was sat upon...and after I glued them and did the finish re-do...clear..., the glue joints were totally invisible.  I did the work and I couldn't see the repair.  Try that with Titebond or epoxy.  When we glue up top seams in spruce, cedar, or redwood, if we join properly, you cannot see the glue joint.  

HHG also seems to take stains much better than any other glue.  

And then there's the issue of sanding, especially putting bookmatched flat tops and backs through our wide belt sander.  HHG just powders off.  Titebond gums up the belts.  That alone is justification for using HHG.  

Most of the younger generation of luthiers are basically afraid of HHG.  They weren't trained in using it in the first place, and they get freaked out thinking that you have to get a joint together in five seconds.   Judicious use of a hot box or heat gun can extend open time a bit.  You can also use the steam activation trick go around a top or back and work one section at a time; this is common with bowed instrument luthiers putting cellos or basses together.  

For me, it was like coming home to get back to using HHG...along with seven or more other glues and adhesives in my shop.  They all have their place...except for T2 and T3!

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Michael Lewis

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## HoGo

One of the biggest surprises of this year was when Roger Hargrave (one of the most prominent violin makers of our time) posted on maestronet forum (look for "making a double bass" thread on pegbox section - it's got some 40 pages now but it's all worth reading) that he used Titebond III for gluing center seam of his double bass back. Violin folks seem to be total HHG advocates but this was really something that hit me... someone supported the use linking the woodworking magazine test (posted here on the cafe as well).
I think, even the best of the best make mistakes...

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## Rob Zamites

So, after reading all these threads on glues, I'm gleaning the following:

HHG is the ultimate way to do lutherie gluingFor a simple, first-time or second time kit build, Titebond is fineTitebond II or III are to be avoided like the plaguePlain unflavored gelatin works in a pinch as a hot hide glue substitute

Do I have this all correct? Sorry to be doing this:

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## multidon

Rob, you do have it right for the most part. Original Titebond is used way more than you may think it is though. A lot of the luthiers that post here are one man shops and do swear by HHG and nothing else will do for them. But Martin guitars are all made using PVA glue unless it is a special model. Ditto for Gibson Acoustic guitars, unless HHG is specified. My recently purchase Gibson J 15 is all Titebond except for the neck joint, which is HHG. This was obviously done to make neck resets easier, as the dovetail glued like that is easy to disassemble with steaming it. HHG is not as good for high production shops. And yet, no one says Martin or Gibson acoustic guitars are inferior because of the type of glue they use. Quite the opposite, they are held up as a golden standard. Truth be told, there are a lot of very fine instruments that use some form of PVA (polyvinyl acetate) glue in their construction.

Hot hide glue does have a learning curve. The biggest problem is you have relatively short working time. If you don't clamp it up right the first time you are basically screwed. With Titebond you get at least a few minutes to reposition if it isn't perfect out of the gate. That's why it's so beginner friendly. I would only recommend HHG to a beginner if they are willing to spend a lot of time practicing on scrap and getting familiar with it first. International Violin carries an inexpensive HHG kit for around 30 dollars. It's only a couple of jars and a coffee cup warmer but the instructions are well written and therefore of great value.

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Rob Zamites

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## JeffD

Just on a whim I did some searching and found several sites teaching how to make hot hide glue from scratch. It does not seem to be an onerous process (like making a mandolin seems  :Smile:   ), and like anything else, with practice and care I would think one could make the glue every bit as clear and clean as the commercially available stuff. Doesn't seem chemically prohibitive. Might not want to do it in the kitchen with brand cookware and limited ventilation, but it seems very do-able.

Time and access to hides. Probably time is the harder ingredient to acquire.

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Rob Zamites

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## fscotte

Titebond III = No, no, and finally, no.

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## Rob Zamites

Hmmm, I have pig hides in my freezer, salvaged from whole pork shoulders I smoked.....nah, I'll just exchange this bottle of TB II for some TB I   :Laughing:

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## multidon

Teacher is trying to teach her class what "hide" means, but poor little Johnny just doesn't get it. The teacher tries everything but he still doesn't get it. Finally in frustration she screams: "Hide! Hide! The cow's outside!"

Little Johnny says: "Why? Should I be afraid of a cow?"

Wait for it.... :Laughing:

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John Ellington, 

Rob Zamites

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## Rob Zamites

> Teacher is trying to teach her class what "hide" means, but poor little Johnny just doesn't get it. The teacher tries everything but he still doesn't get it. Finally in frustration she screams: "Hide! Hide! The cow's outside!"
> 
> Little Johnny says: "Why? Should I be afraid of a cow?"
> 
> Wait for it....


 :Whistling: 

Mission: GLUE accomplished, got the real stuff, and found this Dremel mini-set in the bargain bin at Lowe's for $12!

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## Bernie Daniel

> So, after reading all these threads on glues, I'm gleaning the following:
> 
> HHG is the ultimate way to do lutherie gluingFor a simple, first-time or second time kit build, Titebond is fineTitebond II or III are to be avoided like the plaguePlain unflavored gelatin works in a pinch as a hot hide glue substitute
> 
> Do I have this all correct? Sorry to be doing this:


Likewise sorry to be like a (*see image below*) but two gluing options that always seem to be left of these Titebond versus HHG discussions are:

*1) liquid hide glue and 2 ) fish glue*

Both are excellent options.   

Liquid hide glue like Franklin's brand is cheap can be purchased from appropriate section of your hardware store and I can show you at least one article where in a scientifically controlled glue strength test it proved to be just as strong HHG. For sure it is a lot easier to use.

Fish glue is more expensive but is also very strong and also avoids the tricky preparation and handling aspects of HHG.  

The disadvantage of these two glues is that they do have shelf life issues that need to be attended to.

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Rob Zamites

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## sunburst

> ...I can show you at least one article where in a scientifically controlled glue strength test it proved to be just as strong HHG.


Did the test include exposure to very humid conditions and high heat? If you can show me evidence that fish glue and liquid hide glue hold up as well as hot hide glue under all the conditions that instruments are subjected to, then I'll accept that they are viable alternatives, but considering the hygroscopic nature of dried liquid hide glue and dried fish glue (more hygroscopic than hot hide glue, which is rather hygroscopic itself), I suspect a test under high humidity will not show similar results.

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## JeffD

> The difference between epoxy and most glues is....


One of the best explanations I have ever read. Clear, concise, and perfectly understandable. 

If you were teaching a course on glue, I would take it, and I have no reason to take a course on glue.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Did the test include exposure to very humid conditions and high heat? If you can show me evidence that fish glue and liquid hide glue hold up as well as hot hide glue under all the conditions that instruments are subjected to, then I'll accept that they are viable alternatives, but considering the hygroscopic nature of dried liquid hide glue and dried fish glue (more hygroscopic than hot hide glue, which is rather hygroscopic itself), I suspect a test under high humidity will not show similar results.


I might do a little searching around for some information on that.    I was planning to glue a back on a mandolin later this week with fish glue.

Certainly 120 - 140 degrees F (49 - 66 C)  would be considered "high heat" for a wood instrument.  

What would be considered "high humidity" (short of the instrument being immersed?) to the point of compromising the glue bond?    

Most consider 40% RH to be ideal for instrument storage.

FYI h*ere is one of the scientifically conducted tests* that I was referring to where LHG and HHG come out about the same -- but no heat or humidity testing.

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## sunburst

> What would be considered "high humidity" (short of the instrument being immersed?) to the point of compromising the glue bond?


I'm not sure, but it would be a good thing to know. I've heard tales of people taking their instruments on a trip to the beach where the humidity was high enough to cause fish glue to start letting go.
In general, we should try to keep our instruments in conditions of 40% to 60% RH ideally, 30% to 70% is pretty safe for moderate periods of time. As we all know, sometimes we don't have much choice when it comes to RH when we have to play in extreme conditions. (I remember one outdoor wedding reception where we were cooped up under a small overhang just out of the pouring rain watching a stream of water running through the big white banquet tent while we played. The bride had mud on the hem of her wedding dress extending up about a foot, and finally she and the groom just went out into the rain and started to dance, him in his tux and her in her wedding dress! When I saw that, I figured they had a pretty good chance of having a good marriage!)

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## Pete Jenner

Humidity here hasn't fallen below 89% in the last week and yesterday I did some fish glue tests. The results were so good that I decided use it to glue the back on to #6. I also used it to glue the neck of #5 last month.

It'll stay clamped up for at least 48 hours.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Humidity here hasn't fallen below 89% in the last week and yesterday I did some fish glue tests. The results were so good that I decided use it to glue the back on to #6. I also used it to glue the neck of #5 last month.
> 
> It'll stay clamped up for at least 48 hours.  ATTACH=CONFIG]128798[/ATTACH]


Well very timely information Peter -- now it just seems poetically correct to me that *fish* glue would tolerate *water*!   :Smile: 

The RH is only 44% in my shop (basement) so I'll just give it 24 hours.

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## siminoff

Fish glue is a great substitute for hot hide glue, and its bonding characteristics and hardness are similar to HHG. However, fish glue can be worked cold, it's always at the ready, it's open time is about 15 minutes but it has a long clamp time (12 hr). It can be diluted and/or cleaned up with water, and it softens at about 150°F-160°F like HHG. I've never experienced problems with it softening or releasing in high humidity. Further, it has a long shelf life and can quickly be brought back to a usable consistency with water. 

During our Luthierie Camps we give folks a piece of rib stock, and have them put similar-size dabs of hot hide glue, fish glue, Titebond Original glue, Franklin's Liquid Hide Glue, Titebond II, Titebond III, and Gorilla glue on the board and mark what they are. The next day they do a very simple hardness test by poking the dried dabs with an X-Acto knife. Then we do a heat test, and I suggest they take the boards home and do soak-in-water test. Try it - you'll learn a lot from this easy experiment. (Part of the experiment is to notice how the various glues shrink (or bubble in the case of Gorilla glue), and how some of them shatter if you hit them harder with the knife (guess which two shatter).

I urge not to not be fooled by the brand name "Liquid Hide Glue," it's a great marketing effort for cabinet makers and hobby carpenters.

A belated Happy New Year to all...

…R

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## Bernie Daniel

> Fish glue is a great substitute for hot hide glue, and its bonding characteristics and hardness are similar to HHG. However, fish glue can be worked cold, it's always at the ready, it's open time is about 15 minutes but it has a long clamp time (12 hr). It can be diluted and/or cleaned up with water, and it softens at about 150°F-160°F like HHG. I've never experienced problems with it softening or releasing in high humidity. Further, it has a long shelf life and can quickly be brought back to a usable consistency with water. 
> 
> During our Luthierie Camps we give folks a piece of rib stock, and have them put similar-size dabs of hot hide glue, fish glue, Titebond Original glue, Franklin's Liquid Hide Glue, Titebond II, Titebond III, and Gorilla glue on the board and mark what they are. The next day they do a very simple hardness test by poking the dried dabs with an X-Acto knife. Then we do a heat test, and I suggest they take the boards home and do soak-in-water test. Try it - you'll learn a lot from this easy experiment. (Part of the experiment is to notice how the various glues shrink (or bubble in the case of Gorilla glue), and how some of them shatter if you hit them harder with the knife (guess which two shatter).
> 
> I urge not to not be fooled by the brand name "Liquid Hide Glue," it's a great marketing effort for cabinet makers and hobby carpenters.
> 
> A belated Happy New Year to all...
> 
> …R


Thanks Roger!  So you are obviously supportive of fish glue. 

But on liquid hide glue I was not sure about your comments.  Are you saying to be careful about what brand of LHG you buy (i.e., stick with name brands like Franklin)? Or do you advise just avoiding it all together?

Interesting observation I made last summer on Franklins' liquid hide glue.  

Rummaging around some mandolin parts I bought in the 1970's I found a small brown bottle of Franklin's Hide glue -- see pic below.  

Funny thing is I remember the day I bought it from Cliff's Hardware on N. High Street in Columbus (label shows I paid $1.59).  I was gluing up an oak chair rung at our first house.  

Since then, around 40 years ago, the bottle of glue has been stored in a box at room temperature in my basement.    I tried the glue out just for fun.   

It still dries as a brown, hard and crystalline-like bead and it glues wood just fine.  Pretty LONG shelf-life?  

I don't suggest that this bottle is typical of all LHG -- but I got what I got!   :Smile:

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## Pete Jenner

> Well very timely information Peter -- now it just seems poetically correct to me that *fish* glue would tolerate *water*!  
> 
> The RH is only 44% in my shop (basement) so I'll just give it 24 hours.


Timely indeed Bernie. I had just finished the glue tests when I saw this thread.

I've brought the mandolin inside the house for the night where the RH is considerably lower.

EDIT: I took the clamps off at 5 AM because the squeeze out glue is hard. 12 hours was probably enough as Roger suggested.

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## siminoff

Bernie… Hope all is well with you… Yes, I really like fish glue and use it where time is not an issue. As to Franklin Liquid Hide Glue (now called Titebond Liquid Hide Glue) while it is a natural protein emulsion like real hot hide glue, it's bonding properties are very different. Franklin originally made this glue to provide similar after-bonding properties to HHG - i.e., it would look like, sand like, and take finish like HHG (which is why I said not be fooled by brand names). But because of the vehicle (the substance that makes the glue "liquid), the strength of Liquid Hide Glue is even LOWER than Titebond Original Glue. Liquid Hide Glue has a reported strength so 3,591 psi at room temperature compared to Titebond Original Glue's 3,650 psi.  However, Liquid Hide Glue's properties are very different from HHG in that when kept at 150°F for a period of time LHG's reported strength only drops to 3,207 psi whereas HHG is softened and almost liquifies at that temperature (by contrast, Titebond Original Glue drops to 1,250 psi when subjected to 150°F for an extended period (Titebond will soften for seam separation at about 180°-190°F).

I'm not quite sure what's happening to the branding of Franklin's adhesives. There are now about 18-20 "Titebond" variations, of which Titebond Liquid Hide Glue is one, and if I ever get a minute -hmmmm- I hope to test them all.

…R

PS: to make my long-winded story short, I urge that you do NOT use Franklin (or Titebond) Liquid Hide Glue for luthierie.

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Bernie Daniel

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## Bernie Daniel

> ...PS: to make my long-winded story short, I urge that you do NOT use Franklin (or Titebond) Liquid Hide Glue for luthierie.


Because you'll have a heck of time if you ever try to melt it to disassemble the instrument for repair?  Right?

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## siminoff

Bernie - absolutely correct! It may be good to use for furniture under a barbecue pit, but not much else… R

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Bernie Daniel, 

Rob Zamites

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## Bernie Daniel

This is not Titebond III but it is series of tests on that kind of glue with different joints.

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