# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Bill Monroe's Lloyd Loar Mandolin #73987 Returned Post-Repair

## palosfv3

Chris Henry posted this on the Monroe Appreciation Society FB page. Its the audio track from when Bill got his mandolin back for the first time after its event . What a treasure !  

Thanks Chris !  

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c8fc0orzvy...ry%20again.mp3



Happy New Year !

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Bernie Daniel, 

Bob Bass, 

carleshicks, 

darylcrisp, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

journeybear, 

Ken, 

LongBlackVeil, 

Phil Goodson, 

rubydubyr, 

Scott Tichenor

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## Scott Tichenor

This is one of those bits of historical information I've decided needs to be safely archived on this site. I just listened to this after downloading the MP3 a few days ago and it's fascinating. Other reason I'm storing it here is so it can be found in the future as I'm adding a more appropriate title, some keywords and a few pointers. I worry that things like this posted on Facebook or someone's DropBox account are less than desirable, will either be lost or eventually disappear, unlike long-term plans for this site which are set to last beyond my ownership and time on the planet.



Your browser does not support the audio element.


Not sure who all of the voices are here but Charlie Derrington and Bill Monroe are obvious in discussing Lloyd Loar F-5 #73987 that was smashed with a fireplace poker on November 13, 1985. The instrument was returned to Monroe on February 25, 1986 so the recording is from around that date but there's no evidence I hear that puts it on that exact day. Making a guess this is James Monroe doing much of the casual discussion with Charlie but maybe others can substantiate that.

MP3 archived here. You'll need Adobe's Flash player to stream it above.

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Andrew B. Carlson, 

Bernie Daniel, 

Bob Bass, 

dang, 

darylcrisp, 

EvanElk, 

fredfrank, 

Gene Summers, 

George R. Lane, 

Hudmister, 

Jacqke, 

jasona, 

John Goodin, 

LongBlackVeil, 

mandoblues, 

Mandofin, 

Mickey King, 

muzikchic, 

Newmexmandoboy, 

rubydubyr, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

sgrexa

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## Scott Tichenor

This post above will pair nicely with the following MP3 clip which in itself is a little more entertaining but no less historically significant:

*The story of Monroe's gouged headstock, in his words*

Thanks to Bruce Harvie and the Mandolin Archive for the following audio segment of Bill Monroe talking about acquiring his famous mandolin and subsequent relationship with Gibson over the years when the headplate was replaced.

[mp3=2]http://www.mandolincafe.net/mp3/73987_monroe_mandolin_story.mp3[/mp3]

The clip above appeared previously on the Cafe in our 10 Questions for Laura Weber Cash interview from August 3, 2010. She and husband John Carter Cash are the owners of Monroe's gouged headplate.

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Bigtuna, 

darylcrisp, 

George R. Lane, 

Jacqke, 

jasona, 

mandomedic, 

Randy Linam, 

rubydubyr

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## Ken Waltham

The main voice in the first post... that voice is familiar to me... not Charlie, but the one who seems to be holding and playing the mandolin.. Is that Marty Stuart? I feel I know that person. Oh, I see where you are wondering if that's James..doesn't sound like it to me, but, who knows?

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## sgrexa

Priceless! Thank you Scott!  I bet Marty would like to add that one to his collection.

Sean

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## Ken Waltham

> Priceless! Thank you Scott!  I bet Marty would like to add that one to his collection.
> 
> Sean


Later in the recording, it does not sound so much like Marty... but, I feel I know that person. Tom!! who is this do you think?

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## Glassweb

I thought I heard George Gruhn in there... saying a couple of lines around the 23 minute mark... great stuff this! Many thanks for the post.

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## Spruce

> Thanks to Bruce Harvie and the Mandolin Archive for the following audio segment of Bill Monroe talking about acquiring his famous mandolin and subsequent relationship with Gibson over the years when the headplate was replaced.
> 
> [mp3=2]http://www.mandolincafe.net/mp3/73987_monroe_mandolin_story.mp3[/mp3]


For the record, this was recorded at the Soft Rock Cafe in Vancouver, BC, Canada
November the 3rd, 1980...
I'm pretty sure Bill then plays the definitive version of "Evening Prayer Blues"...   :Disbelief:

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Bob Bass, 

mandomedic

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## journeybear

> The clip above appeared previously on the Cafe in our 10 Questions for Laura Weber Cash interview from August 3, 2010. She and husband John Carter Cash are the owners of Monroe's gouged headplate.


These are some photos of the item, saved when it was the subject of much discussion when it was coming up for auction at Cnristie's several years ago - 12/3/2009, to be exact. There's a better version viewable via Bill Graham's article. Suitable for framing. The unframed version may show the coloration the best.

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Bob Bass, 

Gene Summers

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## George R. Lane

> The main voice in the first post... that voice is familiar to me... not Charlie, but the one who seems to be holding and playing the mandolin.. Is that Marty Stuart? I feel I know that person. Oh, I see where you are wondering if that's James..doesn't sound like it to me, but, who knows?



Could it be Ricky Skaggs?

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## Bernie Daniel

What an amazing piece of audio.   I wonder how Chris Henry came to have a copy?   For certain we are all in his debt for making it publicly available.

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## FLATROCK HILL

> Could it be Ricky Skaggs?


 I would bet the farm that is James Monroe talking with Mr. Derrington. (Charley's voice sounds a little 'Skaggs-like' maybe.)

(I don't actually own a farm, so I'm safe either way.)

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Gene Summers

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## palosfv3

> What an amazing piece of audio.   I wonder how Chris Henry came to have a copy?   For certain we are all in his debt for making it publicly available.


His post on the MMAS FB page from a couple weeks ago .  

Chris Henry
December 20, 2014 at 6:48pm · Gore, VA

OK neighbors - some interesting Monroe news - I have made an appointment with the treasurer of Bill's personal collection of reel-to-reel tape, Mr. Peter V. Kuykendall of just outside Marshall, VA. We shall endeavor to digitize a portion this coming Tuesday. The material was retrieved from the floor of Bill's barn some years ago. No one knows what all is there, but we'll take a look. It could potentially reveal some wonderful listening. We've been heading towards it for about five years, but we've got it on the books now - I'll keep y'all posted.

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Bernie Daniel, 

FLATROCK HILL

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## Bernie Daniel

> His post on the MMAS FB page from a couple weeks ago .  
> 
> Chris Henry
> December 20, 2014 at 6:48pm · Gore, VA
> 
> OK neighbors - some interesting Monroe news - I have made an appointment with the treasurer of Bill's personal collection of reel-to-reel tape, Mr. Peter V. Kuykendall of just outside Marshall, VA. We shall endeavor to digitize a portion this coming Tuesday. The material was retrieved from the floor of Bill's barn some years ago. No one knows what all is there, but we'll take a look. It could potentially reveal some wonderful listening. We've been heading towards it for about five years, but we've got it on the books now - I'll keep y'all posted.


Thanks for that information palosfv3!   :Smile:  

I have not looked at his Facebook page in quite a few months -- I used to look at it from time to time to see what he was up to. 

In my humble opinion Chris Henry is an incredible singer and picker and I really can't understand why he isn't more prominent in bluegrass circles and have his own name band and a bunch of CD's.  He certainly has the talent I think.  This was great effort in preserving BG & mandolin history -- kind of a Marty Stuart like move!    :Smile:

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DataNick, 

Gene Summers

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## Vernon Hughes

Sounds like Sonny Osborne to me.

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## mando1man

It sounds like there are different sections to the audio. I just got off the phone with John Hedgecoth who worked at Gruhn's at the time. We agreed that it must be him doing a lot of the talking at the beginning. He said that he went to Charlie's bench before Mr. Monroe got it back. They were talking about the repair and Charlie (prankster) told John stories about all the people he had super glued. For instance Charlie super glued one of the repairman's shoes to the floor when he was not paying attention. Sounds like Charlie. He said later Chet was there and at some point played a number or two with Bill. He said Bill played a tune that he wrote like Ozark Rag and Chet messed up because he didn't know the changes. Good stuff.

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Gene Summers

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## Bernie Daniel

Any idea who was doing the picking on it before Mr. Bill arrived?  Charlie Derrington perhaps?  I'll bet Charlie was very apprehensive the first time he strung that mandolin up -- and just as worried when he first took a pick to it!

I like the comment about putting it back in its case before Bill got there.  Monroe was very generous with his praise of Gibson I thought.  Wonderful bit of mandolin/Gibson/WSM history captured by someone with plenty of forethought!

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## FLATROCK HILL

Well, whoever it is talking with Charley Derrington in the first segment seems to be quite familiar with the way the mandolin sounded as well its condition before the vandalizm episode.  I figured it was James because of that, and also because the depth of voice and some speech patterns (slightly slurred 'esses') sound similar to James'.  
Right around the 44 second mark, it sounds like he says a short phrase with the word 'Daddy' in it. Unfortunately, just about that moment, somebody starts shooting compressed air in the background. 





> The clip above appeared previously on the Cafe in our 10 Questions for Laura Weber Cash interview from August 3, 2010. She and husband John Carter Cash are the owners of Monroe's gouged headplate.


I believe that they are no longer married. Mike Compton brought that framed headstock plate to the show at Carter Vintage during the last Monroe Mandolin Camp. He credited Laura for allowing him to bring it along if I remember correctly. I guess she got custody.

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Bernie Daniel

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## Timbofood

This is such an amazing to have preserved here! Scott, Chris, thank you so much for the foresight to preserve this critical historical information! Strong work!
The framing project was done by my guitar players brother when he and I worked for different picture frame shops here in Kalamazoo, I worked for "Suzanne's" , Brent Spink workd for "Labadies".
My guitar player "Curly" Spink, works for Heritage as a binder in the old Parsons street location, interesting how things come around sometimes, isn't it?

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## stringduster

I was my understanding that a Gibson fella named Richard L Doan, who was working with OR for Charlie in the '80's was given the
repair assignment. How much if any of that is correct?

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## Ken Waltham

[QUOTE=mando1man;1358623]It sounds like there are different sections to the audio. I just got off the phone with John Hedgecoth who worked at Gruhn's at the time. We agreed that it must be him doing a lot of the talking at the beginning. He said that he went to Charlie's bench before Mr. Monroe got it back. They were talking about the repair and Charlie (prankster) told John stories about all the people he had super glued. 
That could be who it is. The man in question understands the repair, and techniques used. Definitely not Ricky, and not George.
I'll bet it's John.

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## mando1man

I recognized John Hedgecoth's voice. Called him up and played a little for him to confirm.

These photos of Charlie with the mandolin on his bench have been floating around for years.

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atbuckner21, 

Wynning13

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## Tim W

> I recognized John Hedgecoth's voice. Called him up and played a little for him to confirm.
> 
> These photos of Charlie with the mandolin on his bench have been floating around for years.


I thought it was John too but wasn't certain. I was absolutely sure it wasn't James Monroe, he sounds just like his Daddy, same cadence to his speech.

A few things I wonder are who the "he" is that gave Charlie that special varnish he liked so much and what it was and the epoxy he used that was thin. Also I wonder who it was that Bill was wanting to buy that "banjer" for, that was mighty thoughty of Bill to do that.

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## Pete Counter

I believe when Chris first posted this he said that was his uncle.

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## Austin Koerner

This thread is solid gold.

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atbuckner21

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## DataNick

Did anyone else hear when Charlie Derrington made a comment about replacing the tuners with real good ones, that he identified as Schallers? If that was the case, in 1986 were Waverly tuners not around, or was there some other reason he apparently chose Schaller tuners? I would not have expected that...

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## Clef

This is a fascinating thread.  Thanks!

I'm posting so I can find it again later.

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## FLATROCK HILL

> Did anyone else hear when Charlie Derrington made a comment about replacing the tuners with real good ones, that he identified as Schallers? If that was the case, in 1986 were Waverly tuners not around, or was there some other reason he apparently chose Schaller tuners? I would not have expected that...


I did hear that Nick, ...wondered the same thing. One thing's for sure, Charlie D. was not moonlighting as a sales-rep for Kluson.  :Wink:

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DataNick

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## FLATROCK HILL

> I believe when Chris first posted this he said that was his uncle.


Who was his uncle??, the guy talking with Charlie about the repair work, the guy who supplied the special varnish, or the guy Bill was wanting to buy the 'banjer' for?? (My computer refuses to download Chris' dropbox file.)

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## Spruce

> Did anyone else hear when Charlie Derrington made a comment about replacing the tuners with real good ones....


...and where might the old ones be??
Lot of history there...

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DataNick

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## sgarrity

> Who was his uncle?.....


John Hedgecoth is Chris Henry's uncle.

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Bernie Daniel, 

FLATROCK HILL

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## BradKlein

And who was the violin maker who Charlie D consulted with and who he credits with the varnish recipe? - just trying to fill in all the blanks.

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## FLATROCK HILL

> I would bet the farm that is James Monroe talking with Mr. Derrington.  (I don't actually own a farm, so I'm safe either way.)





> I recognized John Hedgecoth's voice. Called him up and played a little for him to confirm.





> I thought it was John too but wasn't certain. I was absolutely sure it wasn't James Monroe, he sounds just like his Daddy, same cadence to his speech.


Looks like the evidence is in. Today's the day I turn over the deed to my imaginary farm.  :Frown:

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## Timbofood

Tim is right, James does sound like a recording of his father in cadence and tone.

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## Spruce

> And who was the violin maker who Charlie D consulted with and who he credits with the varnish recipe? - just trying to fill in all the blanks.


Jon Cooper did the finish and antiquing on the first (few?) "distressed" MMs....
Might be him?

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BradKlein

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## Ken Waltham

Absolutely he did! That is totally NOT him.




> Tim is right, James does sound like a recording of his father in cadence and tone.

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## f5loar

I've been out on the high seas when this first posted so just got back and a chance to hear it.  Somewhere there is a magazine that has the photo of all them standing around Monroe and Chet Atkins with CD in the middle that you might can identify others in this tape.  I did not hear James Monroe in there anywhere.  George Gruhn pretty obvious.  I did catch when the reporter girl asked Monroe about how he got the mandolin and he said it was in 1941.  Well if you have followed this same story of the barbershop buy for $150 from about late 60's until he died, Monroe never got the actual year right.  I think in the first time he was asked he said 1941, then a few years later he said it was 1943, then later 1941, then later 1943 and so forth and so on.  This interviews would be printed and after repeating it so many times and possibly reading the interviews you would think he would land on one or the other. I questioned these 2 dates as there were no photos of him holding it in either 1941 or 1943.  It would be the F7 or the Epiphone or something else but not the '23 F5.  Also there are no recordings from this time live or studio that you could hear the difference between the F7 and F5.  So I came up with the date of early 1945 as it was that first song recorded Feb. 13, 1945 "Rocky Road Blues" you knew that was it.  After discussing this possible error in the year with many certified "Monroeites" including the Bluegrass Boys that were with him from '41 to '45 it took an in depth discussion with Tom Ewing who is still writing a bio on Monroe, to research Monroe's tour dates for those years and sure enough he was not close to Florida in '41 or '43 but was in Jan. of 1945.  When you put the facts together it's pretty easy to say the actual date was early 1945.  So I was surprised to hear Monroe in this tape from 1986 say 1941 as I thought he had convinced himself it was 1943 after being asked the same question so many times over the past 40+ years.  An important tape for bluegrass history.  Why is it so short?  Where is the part with Monroe and Chet picking some songs?  Did he not play the new song he just wrote for the workers at Gibson he named "Lloyd Loar"?  Chris, give us more!

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Bernie Daniel, 

BradKlein, 

DataNick, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Glassweb, 

Jordan Ramsey

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## mikeyes

There is no question that the first voice is John Hedgecoth (Chris's great-uncle, his dad's uncle.)

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## GTison

Thinking about Monroe not remembering the date of purchase and saying 1941 is almost like him saying the "banjo player that his house burned down"   He did not remember his name right off.   Could the banjo player mentioned be Bill Black?  His own former "banjo player".  I did read in his book about his house burning at some time.

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## Big Joe

On the first section of the tape it is Charlie playing. His sound was very distinctive.  There were two Loars that came in at the same time.  Bill's favorite is well known, but the second seems to be a mystery as to what happened to it after that time.  We saw that mandolin numerous times over the years.  It was always interesting and a cause for discussion in the shop.  Charlie worked on his varnish formula for over 20 years.  He finally believed he had the same formula as Loar.  That was what was used during his tenure on the Master Models and DMM's.  The varnish is not the same since Charlie left.  He had his own French polish formula as well.  Only a couple people had that formula, and G was not one of them.

Charlie was the most incredible repair person I've seen.  He could hyper-focus on a small detail and work it until perfect.  He understood wood like few ever have.  Sometimes it was tough getting him on his bench, but when he did, it was unequaled.  Just about the time one would think they really knew something about mandolins or repair, Charlie would politely let you know how little you really knew.  Working with him over the years was an experience that is unequalled.

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Bernie Daniel, 

DataNick, 

f5joe, 

fredfrank, 

Michael Lewis, 

Randy Smith

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## DataNick

> Did anyone else hear when Charlie Derrington made a comment about replacing the tuners with real good ones, that he identified as Schallers? If that was the case, in 1986 were Waverly tuners not around, or was there some other reason he apparently chose Schaller tuners? I would not have expected that...


Thread Bump:

I'm still puzzled by this. Does anyone know if Grover, Gotoh, etc. were available as mandolin tuners in 1986? I've had Schallers on 2 mandolins including my current 94' F5L and I can't stand them! I much prefer Grovers and of course Waverlys go without saying. It just seems to me odd and even painful that the most iconic Loar in history ended up with Schaller tuners, ugh!

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Schallers where what Gibson used on the 80s and 90s. The sure look a bit bulky, too thick/long tuning pegs, too large knobs (14 mms - just like the first run of modern Waverlys - instead of 13), odd looking plates IMO, but some of those Schallers work just fine, I have to say. The alternative around that time would have been Gotoh.

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DataNick

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## Geno

After looking through old Café threads, The Mandolin Archives, The F5 Journal, Walter Carters new book, and old articles in FRETS and Bluegrass Unlimited for information about the various styles of Gibson  peghead inlays, I am confused about  one aspect of the repairs to #73987.  Based on the pre-gouging photo of Monroes mandolin (photo #1) and the The left on the peghead after  he gouged out Gibson (photo #2), it looks to me like the mandolin originally had an open loop style logo.  When the peghead was repaired by Gibson in 1980, a new veneer with The Gibson logo was installed (photo #4).  It was a pretty close copy of the open loop style, cut by Kalamazoo inlay specialist Maude Moore.   A good example of another July 9th Loar with an open loop style logo, #73984, is shown in photo #3.    At about 3:17 in the audio, Charlie  acknowledges that he installed  a new peghead veneer with a Gibson logo that was closer to the original.  However, to my eyes, the Gibson logo on the repaired peghead (photo #6) looks more like the  closed loop style,  similar to the one on #72212, an earlier Feb 26, 1923 Loar (photo #5).  Which style of logo did Monroes mandolin originally have?  Is there a better picture of #73987s peghead  that shows the original Gibson logo more clearly?  Am I missing something  or dispersing alternative facts here?   Personally,  I kind of wish that the old gouged-out, broken-scrolled  peghead had never been repaired to begin with.   I fell in love with the look and sound of that mandolin many years ago, and like Mr. Dylan said, none of these and nothing else can touch the beauty, that I remember in my true loves eyes (or in this case, gouged-out inlay).

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Pic #4 does not seem to show Monroe's F5, despite the name on the truss rod cover. Someone please set me straight, if I missed something. Which mando is in pic #4?
Before the fall 1980 face lift there was no head stock scroll and no "Gibson" inlay since the early '50s The result of the face lift can be seen on the 1981 album cover of "Master of Bluegrass": 
That head stock is clearly not the same as in your pic #4 in more than one respect.
Pic #6 is Charlie Derrington's interpretation appearing after February '86. It was obviously not intended to be a copy of the original Monroe F5 head stock veneer. Looks more like Charlie modeled it after his unsigned Loar #81250 or some other.

As visible in pic #2, Mon's original script was of the (newer) open style. Some July 9th '23 Loars had the open, others the closed style script, such as Darryl Wolfe's #73992.

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## Geno

I think you are right about pic #4, Henry.  I don't know what that mandolin really is.  Here's a couple other pics from after the 1980 repair, and it does look different.

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Thanks, Geno, may I ask, where that picture #4 appeared? Although it doesn't show Monroe's, it sure is a Loar with original tuners.

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## Geno

I'm afraid that I can't locate the bookmark for the site where pic #4 appeared.  Seems like it might have been posted on an old Café thread, and I think it was just a peghead only shot only as I recall.  It is curious that Charlie says in the audio, "I've got an old picture of the mandolin before he scraped that out, and it's as close to that as I possibly could".  Either way, I'm pretty sure that ol' Bill would probably not be too concerned about whether his mandolin had the historically correct peghead inlay, as long as it sounded the way he wanted it to.

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Timbofood

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## DataNick

Can you guys tell from this pre-"gouging" photo?



btw: those tuners appear to be more in line with the Waverly tuners you see on other Loars vs. the Handel F4 type that got installed on his Loar later on.

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Telling from the photo, the "i" dot is part of the "T", typical for the open style.

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## f5loar

The redneck term for the Monroe style logo is "Tit on the T ".   or the dot for the i is at the bottom of the T.   yeah, not sure why Gibson didn't go back with the original logo for the repairs both times.   Photo No. 4 is a real July 9th reverse binding Loar with the Tit on the T logo and a modern style Monroe truss rod cover.

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Thanks for the lesson on the "Tit on the T". May I kindly ask, what makes you think #4 is a July 9th, and what you mean by reverse binding (since many non-July 9th Loars have this side-bound head stock)?

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## Timbofood

I have also heard it referred to as a "Hanging dot".

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## CES

Geez, Bill looks so freaking young in some of those pics...Father Time's a female dawg, man...

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## f5loar

reversed binding and side bound are same thing.  Reversed meaning it's opposite of the regular binding.  Kinda hard to explain other than catalog binding states top bound with white/black/white binding.  So reversed would mean it's not on the top but on the side and side bounding means the top binding is moved to the side.  I remember in the old days everyone said Monroe's had "reversed binding" and then they started to say it was "side binding".  What do you call those new ones that have it both ways?  Got me!   I know No. 4 is a July 9th side bound because I took that photo while it was in a 50's pink lined case. Serial No. 74000.  More photos in archives. Here is photo of same truss rod cover on another mandolin.

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FLATROCK HILL, 

Gene Summers, 

Hendrik Ahrend

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## Hendrik Ahrend

> What do you call those new ones that have it both ways?


 I'd call them "the more the merrier". :Smile:

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