# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Italian Mandolin music being forgotten ???

## Ge23ev

Hey guys 
Does anybody else feel like the Italian side and heritage of the mandolin is being forgotten and overshadowed by say bluegrass and Irish music ?? 
I consider it to be a huge part of  the mandolin music and has much larger share that the attention it's getting. 
I never see top tier non Italian players go into those territories and it kind of bothers me. 
I mean wouldn't you like to see Chris Thile doing a killer arrangement of one of those tarantellas?

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DavidKOS

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## Jim Garber

Carlo Aonzo, one example:

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Bill Findley, 

Bob Clark, 

chuck3, 

DavidKOS, 

ebeja, 

Elliot Luber, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Holger, 

jesserules, 

lowtone2, 

mugbucket, 

PH-Mando, 

Picking Dick

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## James Miller

Have one Italian mandolin album that is smooth, mellow, and no overkill of tremolo. Does that count?
Tremolo is nice if not overdone, and those that play EVERYTHING in tremolo discourages purchasing. Did get one album by some famous Danish-Australian mandolin player named Kurt Jensen. He sort of over does the whole Tremolo thing but he also does not drown out the rest of the ensemble doing that so I added his album to my growing collection. 

Could be a region specific thing where perhaps there is more romance involved in courtship and there are gondolas for such endeavors, or in big cities with parks big enough for such a thing.

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## James Miller

> Carlo Aonzo, one example:
> https://youtu.be/HiNEyI1PF6w


LOL - That mandolin player sure was having a ball  :Grin:   :Mandosmiley:

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DavidKOS

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## Ge23ev

Listen to this mandolin orchestra arrangement of the Godfather Medley. 
I get chills everytime
https://youtu.be/-UOPEGR3U50

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DavidKOS

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## Bren

Depends what perspective you're coming from I guess. 

I see and hear a lot of Italian mandolin music.

Tremolo is an important part of Italian mandolin playing, and possibly the reason a mandolin has double-course strings.

Carlo Aonzo is a modern legend and has dozens of YouTube videos to explore in many styles (including bluegrass).

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DavidKOS, 

JRG

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## Ge23ev

Actually the in my background (I'm Iranian) every one here is somewhat familiar with the Italian sound of the mandolin. Like no one knows what a mandolin is but when you play them like torna a surriento they all go like oh so that's the instrument that makes that sound. But listening to mandolin players from the states most of them don't approach it or maybe even try to incorporate it in new styles.

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bjewell, 

DavidKOS

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## Nevin

> Tremolo is an important part of Italian mandolin playing, and possibly the reason a mandolin has double-course strings.
> 
> .


I think the reason for the double course stings is volume.  Historically there have been many double course instruments that were not played with a tremolo.

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## DavidKOS

> Hey guys 
> Does anybody else feel like* the Italian side and heritage of the mandolin is being forgotten and overshadowed by say bluegrass* and Irish music ??


I have felt that way for decades.

Bluegrass is wonderful.

But the mandolin is capable of so much more music than that!

Being Sicilian-American, I have often wondered this very thing.




> Have one Italian mandolin album that is smooth, mellow, and no overkill of tremolo. Does that count?
> Tremolo is nice if not overdone, and those that play EVERYTHING in tremolo discourages purchasing..


There is no way to overuse tremolo when playing Italian music....well ALMOST no way!

"one Italian mandolin album that is smooth, mellow, and no overkill of tremolo."

Are you sure it's recorded by an Italian?  :Grin:

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Billy Packard, 

dhergert, 

j. condino, 

Pete Martin

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## T.D.Nydn

I read somewhere,that when you add a second course,it increases the volume by something like 3 or 4 db..

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## JRG

Italian music is not forgotten here in Asheville, Mike Guggino and Barrett Smith play here and in Brevard once a month as their Steep Canyon Rangers tour schedule allows. Fantastic stuff !!!

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## EdHanrahan

> I read somewhere,that when you add a second course,it increases the volume by something like 3 or 4 db..


Technically, 3 db IS a doubling of volume, or at least a doubling of the power imparted to/by the moving air.  In actual usage, it takes about 10 decibels for us inaccurate mortals to perceive a "doubling" of volume.  Which sort of explains why you have to play ten times harder to be heard as "'twice" as loud.

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## jimmy powells

I think there is room for the mandolin in many styles but Italian is possibly best. To use these very high priced mandolins in bluegrass as mostly percussive always seems a bit of a waste although without the percussive rhythm, you're in trouble. Occassionally you get no mandolin break which makes it worse.
 I tend to think the faster tunes are served better by fiddle, accordion and tenor banjo in Irish. Now a bluegrass waltz can find the mandolin really coming into it's own. Butch Baldassari's version of Frank Wakefield's 'Waltz in the bluegrass' is great.

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DavidKOS, 

j. condino

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## James Miller

> There is no way to overuse tremolo when playing Italian music....well ALMOST no way!
> "one Italian mandolin album that is smooth, mellow, and no overkill of tremolo."
> Are you sure it's recorded by an Italian?


Unsure to be honest. Was a group called Tuscan Trio: Guitar, Mandolin, and Concertina. They sound great together.  :Smile:

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DavidKOS

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## mandroid

OP writing from  Iran , Cool !  planning a trip to Italy ??

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## SincereCorgi

Bluegrass and Irish both have significant modern traditions of amateur gatherings, which in turn probably popularize those styles just enough for some elite players to make a living at it. It also keeps a 'canon' going of tunes and songs that everybody learns to get started.

Italian mandolin music doesn't have that culture here, at least not to my knowledge. Maybe in Italy?

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## foldedpath

> Bluegrass and Irish both have significant modern traditions of amateur gatherings, which in turn probably popularize those styles just enough for some elite players to make a living at it. It also keeps a 'canon' going of tunes and songs that everybody learns to get started.


Right, the amateur communal gatherings vs. solo performance might be part of it. Also, Irish/Scottish music benefit from the USA immigrant diaspora that moved out of the cities (which Italians didn't, as much) and into areas like the Appalachian mountains, where you get crossover from old English/Irish/Scottish tunes and songs evolving through OldTime and Bluegrass. 

You can hear some version of Jolly Beggar Man/Red Haired Boy in an Irish session, an OldTime jam, or a Bluegrass jam. Italian tunes and songs reamained more city-bound; associated in the public mind with Opera or Italian Restaurant music. A specialized "ethnic" style like Greek music or Spanish Flamenco. Not something you'd play on the front porch with a guitar, fiddle, and banjo. 

Irish trad also got a lift in the 60's folk revival with groups like Planxty and the Bothy Band, where songs in English were combined with trad instrumentals. That probably helped establish the large worldwide session scene we have today. Italian music never got that kind of exposure, for whatever reason. 

On the other hand, the Italians did _much_ better than the Irish in spreading their food culture, so that's something. 
 :Wink:

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## Jim Garber

There was a point decades ago when in urban areas like San Francisco and New York there were concentrations of Italians who would get together to play the ballo liscio music. I dont know too many in New York City  many have moved away to the suburbs or to warmer climes to retire but there is still an active Italian music scene in San Francisco centered at Caffe Trieste. Sheri Mignano, Matt Vuksinich and other Mandolin Cafe denizens. There are quite a few other players on the Cafe who also dabble in this music like David Brown, Mick Kennedy, Martin Jonas, Michael Reichenbach and myself. Many years ago a good friend of mine found a sizeable group of Italian retirees in Albuquerque, NM who played together regularly. Sometimes you just have to look a bit harder to find them.

Come to think of it: I would ask the OP how prevalent Italian music is in Iran as well as how many Iranian musicians play Persian music on the Mandolin?

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JRG, 

Mandophile

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## Ge23ev

Not really right now. I did a trip to Sicily a few years ago but that was before i started to play the mandolin. So I missed out on a chance to play some cool bowlbacks there. Might go again soon though.

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## Ge23ev

To be fairly honest the mandolin isn't very popular here in Iran and most people haven't heard of it.  They have heard what it sound like on tracks like the Godfather or famous Italian movie scores. 
There's only one Iranian artist I know of who plays the mandolin who is originally a guitar/violin player and he mostly does like pop music and uses it as kind of a exotic sound.  If I were to count the people who I know that play the mandolin it wouldn't reach more than five. And they are like all fiddle players and they don't really play that well. I've been playing about 2 years and I can play better than most. You can use the mandolin for Iranian music but like all other instrument you're better off with a purpose made instrument. You need really loose strings for intense trills and quarter step notes for Iranian music. It's doable but not ideal. Check out some tracks from maestro Hossein Alizadeh playing the Tar if you want some great persian music

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Dave Sheets, 

dhergert, 

Nevin, 

Scott Rucker, 

SincereCorgi

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## Frankdolin

> Hey guys 
> Does anybody else feel like the Italian side and heritage of the mandolin is being forgotten and overshadowed by say bluegrass and Irish music ?? 
> I consider it to be a huge part of  the mandolin music and has much larger share that the attention it's getting. 
> I never see top tier non Italian players go into those territories and it kind of bothers me. 
> I mean wouldn't you like to see Chris Thile doing a killer arrangement of one of those tarantellas?


Not if I can help it! It's always the main mandolin music in my head... :Mandosmiley:

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## Jim Garber

To put it in perspective: Mandolin is a minority instrument compared to, say, guitar or piano. Bluegrass, at least in the US,  of the genres played on the mandolin might be the most identifiable to the instrument since that was Bill Monroe’s main one. But in many of the other genres — Old Time, Celtic/ITM classical, blues, ragtime, etc. mandolin really is a minority instrument. Fiddle is much more seen in OT, classical and ITM. Even in the old days I think accordion was more popular in the Italian-American communities than mandolin.

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## crisscross

> I mean wouldn't you like to see Chris Thile doing a killer arrangement of one of those tarantellas?


Chris Thile doing a tarantella would be quite interesting.
But as long as he doesn't play one, I enjoy tarantellas played by other mandolin players:
( and there's a lot of them...)

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## DavidKOS

> Hey guys 
> Does anybody else feel like the Italian side and heritage of the mandolin is being forgotten and overshadowed by say bluegrass and Irish music ?? 
> I consider it to be a huge part of  the mandolin music and has much larger share that the attention it's getting.


And then there's also Iranian mandolin by Onik:




I have a record of his that's even better, but cannot find a way to post it right now.

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...php?47350-Onik

a mention in another thread

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Ge23ev

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## stringalong

Italian mandolin lovers are in luck!  Brian Oberlin, my teacher and consummate virtuoso, has worked up maybe 15+ Italian pieces.  You can buy the album here:  https://www.mandoberlin.com/music-projects-cds.php

I really lucked out, though, in that I was at a house concert where he played them ALL.  They were so beautiful, nobody even breathed -- the audience was so silent you could have heard a proverbial pin drop.  Beautiful, beautiful!

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DavidKOS, 

Ge23ev, 

Jim Imhoff

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## Seter

There was Captain Corelli's Mandolin, which has a really nice soundtrack. For that matter I hear mandolin fairly often in various movies and TV commercials, usually in some sort of quasi-Italian context.

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## James Miller

This video found me today on YouTube

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chuck3, 

DavidKOS, 

JRG, 

stringalong

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## Ge23ev

This is so cool man  I never knew about Onik. I had heard his collabs with Dariush but never knew he played the mandolin. Thanks so much man you've given me whole new perspective on Iranian mandolin. Only if I could find some more mandolin players in Iran right now I would host jam sessions here. Like probably the first ever

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DavidKOS

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## Ge23ev

That's true. That's where most people have heard it but can't recognize it when they see a mandolin until you play them something Italian.

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## Ge23ev

This is the one I was telling you about. He's a multi instrumentalist. He's pretty good on the violin and guitar. But I don't like his mandolin playing or his music over all 
Shadmehr 
https://youtu.be/ZzEuUwhKz_k

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## mandopops

Count me in with those Mandolin players who have not forgotten the Italian roots of our instrument. I had an Sicilian Mandolin teacher , G. Vicari, & played Italian Music in Chicago & New York. Even with my “Classical” Duo, we play a few Italian tunes. Like Jim, David, & a others we have not forgettton the Italian Mandolin.
As for tremolo, it’s the soul of the Mandolin.
Joe B

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DavidKOS

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## jesserules

Here's an interesting thread re mandolins in Italy (as of 2013):

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...ighlight=Italy

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DavidKOS

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## chuck3

> LOL - That mandolin player sure was having a ball


That was indeed awesome ...

[edit] I have to confess I never heard of Carlo Aonzo or his trio before reading this thread, but it set me off on a youtube journey ... man, he/they are awesome.  Here's some Italian cooking on bluegrass standards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1__EgQO-ALQ

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## Mandolin Cafe

We remembered it's Raffaele Calace's birthday today. Do we win anything???

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August Watters, 

Beanzy, 

DavidKOS, 

Nevin

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## Ge23ev

You win my heart. *wink *wink

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DavidKOS

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## Beanzy

We had a great masterclass in London recently with Carlo Aonzo thanks to the organisational skills of Maxine from the LME.
Some very experienced classical & baroque players all captivated and educated in aspects of traditional and classical Italian style. 
A great opportunity I came up from Cornwall not to miss. Excellent concert in the evening which my 9year old twin nephews came to see, they were totally captivated by Carlo, which says a lot knowing them as I do.

Don’t forget Ugo Orlandi too, another Maestro working wonders across a great repertoire of projects.


Edited to say I included the Paisiello clip as it had just been on Classic FM about 5minutes before I posted. 
We’re in a golden age for this , don’t miss out.   :Mandosmiley:

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DavidKOS, 

jesserules

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## DavidKOS

> We remembered it's Raffaele Calace's birthday today. Do we win anything???


Yes, one of those long double-pointed Roman style picks is yours!

from somewhere..... :Wink:

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## Jim Garber

> Yes, one of those long double-pointed Roman style picks is yours!
> 
> from somewhere.....


Sorry, that would have to be the prize for remembering Silvio Ranieri's birthday (November 6). He would have played with a Roman-style pick, not Raffaele.  :Smile: 




> Dont forget Ugo Orlandi too, another Maestro working wonders across a great repertoire of projects.


BTW Carlo in his teen age years studied with Ugo Orlandi.

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DavidKOS

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## James Miller

Tuscan Trio - O Sole Mio

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Sherry Cadenhead

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## DavidKOS

> Sorry, that would have to be the prize for remembering Silvio Ranieri's birthday (November 6). He would have played with a Roman-style pick, not Raffaele.


Picky, picky!

Technically that's correct...but I thought it was good joke anyway.  :Grin:

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## nwg

"Romance in Venice" by Jack Jezzro. Butch Baldassari is the mandolin player, worth a listen for those interested in Italian music.

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DavidKOS

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## Gibson John

Italian Mandolin music may be forgotten but not in my family, my Pop was born in Italy & played the mandolin for some 80 plus years.  He played in an Italian mandolin orchestra, at wedding, restaurants & many other places & along the way taught my brother & I to also play the mandolin & love Italian music. 
Ever Saturday & listen to his music recorded & other people playing the mandolin.
Some examples:  Munier Mandolin & Guitar Orchestra (he placed with them); Mandolins from Italy & Chris Acquavella.
Long live Italian Music!

Pop playing the mandolin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPaJ3qHrFzY

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addamr, 

DavidKOS

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## Bill Foss

> Bluegrass and Irish both have significant modern traditions of amateur gatherings, which in turn probably popularize those styles just enough for some elite players to make a living at it. It also keeps a 'canon' going of tunes and songs that everybody learns to get started.
> 
> Italian mandolin music doesn't have that culture here, at least not to my knowledge. Maybe in Italy?


Here in San Francisco there used to be an Italian mandolin culture that started with the mandolin orchestras dating perhaps as far back as the 1890s. We still have the wonderful Aurora Mandolin Orchestra led by the fabulous Jo Pellegrini. The music was also kept alive in the cafes and barber shops in the Italian North Beach neighborhood of the city. Some of us try to keep the music alive by playing it out as much as possible. 

Three years ago I was lucky enough to travel to Naples and with the help of our friend Kathy who speaks the Neapolitan dialect connected us up with a lively mandolin scene there. The music is centered around the unique Neapolitan song repertoire and is found in the streets as well as the mandolin shops (bodegas) in the center of the old part of the city. Here's a video our friend Kathy made of an impromptu jam. She is also seen playing here. There's lots of singing with mandolin backup. The mandolinists take over at 15:48

https://youtu.be/QG7BSaAyN_c

A musical stroll in Naples:

https://youtu.be/k3RbY8aeuoY

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DavidKOS, 

frankie, 

Paul Kotapish, 

phillawrencemandolin, 

SincereCorgi

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## Sherry Cadenhead

Wasn't there a recording of and also sheet music for a beautiful Italian waltz posted in this thread?  I desperately want to find it and can't.

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> Italian Mandolin music may be forgotten but not in my family, my Pop was born in Italy & played the mandolin for some 80 plus years.  He played in an Italian mandolin orchestra, at wedding, restaurants & many other places & along the way taught my brother & I to also play the mandolin & love Italian music.


Man, I'd have loved to be related to your family. Only one of my relatives played mandolin, and he was honestly not so good! He was asking me how to do stuff early on.

It must be wonderful to have a family tradition of Italian mandolin playing.

P.S. I hold my pick a lot like your Pop! May I be able to do so when I get to be over 100.

Cent'anni!

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## Sherry Cadenhead

> Wasn't there a recording of and also sheet music for a beautiful Italian waltz posted in this thread?  I desperately want to find it and can't.


Never mind.  I found this in an Italian, etc. music thread.

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DavidKOS

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## crisscross

And don't forget the rich Italian mandolin Christmas tradition. A tasty piece of _panettone_ and a nice _Canto de Natale_ tremoloed on a bowlback. Like for example _Mai le campane risuonano più dolcemente_ :Wink:

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## Gibson John

> Man, I'd have loved to be related to your family. Only one of my relatives played mandolin, and he was honestly not so good! He was asking me how to do stuff early on.
> 
> It must be wonderful to have a family tradition of Italian mandolin playing.
> 
> P.S. I hold my pick a lot like your Pop! May I be able to do so when I get to be over 100.
> 
> Cent'anni!


Thanks for your kind words, I miss our weekly mandolin playing sessions, I hope to live as long as he did.

I just listened to you playing Mazurka Fresca very nice sounding song I like it very much.  I would love to get the music to it.

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> Thanks for your kind words, I miss our weekly mandolin playing sessions, I hope to live as long as he did.
> 
> I just listened to you playing Mazurka Fresca very nice sounding song I like it very much.  I would love to get the music to it.


Thank you. Here is a lead sheet for the tune:

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Bob A, 

brunello97, 

derbex

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## SincereCorgi

> Here in San Francisco there used to be an Italian mandolin culture that started with the mandolin orchestras dating perhaps as far back as the 1890s. We still have the wonderful Aurora Mandolin Orchestra led by the fabulous Jo Pellegrini. The music was also kept alive in the cafes and barber shops in the Italian North Beach neighborhood of the city. Some of us try to keep the music alive by playing it out as much as possible.


I live in the south bay and have heard about the mandolins at Cafe Trieste but have never been in the city at the right time to hear them. I'll have to make a point of going soon. It's funny how the bay area has such big ancestral Italian and Portuguese communities but relatively little interest in Italian mandolin or fado music.

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> It's funny how the bay area has such big ancestral Italian and Portuguese communities but relatively little interest in Italian mandolin or fado music.


I can't speak for the Portuguese, but if you look at Italian musical history in America, the 2nd generation and on were very active in American popular music. From top singer to rank-and-file band musicians, many were Italian American.  Some, like Louis Prima, used some traditional material as a basis for some songs, some like Dean Martin and others recorded music that was sentimental-Italian...but not a lot kept playing the old-world music.

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## LadysSolo

I haven't forgotten Italian mandolin music - I've been working on some of Calace's music for awhile (and will probably be working on it for awhile longer to get it correct! LOL!)

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DavidKOS

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## chuckhorton

I have a part time job as a gondolier. Real authentic Venetian gondolas from Italy. Sometimes we have live musicians on board - usually accordion or violin, but this year I started playing tunes on my mandolin for the passengers on trips as well (when I'm not rowing). After many years behind the oar with a musician on board - all the popular Italian folk songs were stuck in my head, so getting them down on the mandolin wasn't such a difficult process. 

Everybody wants to hear O Sole Mio, Santa Lucia, Torna Sorrento. When the moon hits your eye....

Little do the lovebirds on board know that they are also being serenaded by Bill Monroe, new grass, Bach and old time too. I've got a couple Italian Mandolin books I have learned a couple tunes from too, but there's definitely lots more to learn!

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DavidKOS

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## Gibson John

David,
Thanks for the music, I will try to learn how to play it.

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DavidKOS

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## mlinkins

Interesting thread. In November the Munier Mandolin & Guitar Orchestra hosted an en masse orchestra (65 players from across the Northeat). The program consisted entirely of music by Italian film scorers Ennio Morricone and Nino Rota. The second half of the program featured the Carlo Aonzo Trio. it was a lot of fun. here are some excerpts.

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Mandophile

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## Gibson John

My Pop played mandolin in the Munier Mandolin & Guitar Orchestra for some 40 years, thanks for the video I was unable to attend this  concert & it looks like I missed a great program.
You can check out his video that I posted.

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mlinkins

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## chuck3

> I have a part time job as a gondolier. Real authentic Venetian gondolas from Italy. Sometimes we have live musicians on board - usually accordion or violin, but this year I started playing tunes on my mandolin for the passengers on trips as well (when I'm not rowing). After many years behind the oar with a musician on board - all the popular Italian folk songs were stuck in my head, so getting them down on the mandolin wasn't such a difficult process. 
> 
> Everybody wants to hear O Sole Mio, Santa Lucia, Torna Sorrento. When the moon hits your eye....
> 
> Little do the lovebirds on board know that they are also being serenaded by Bill Monroe, new grass, Bach and old time too. I've got a couple Italian Mandolin books I have learned a couple tunes from too, but there's definitely lots more to learn!


Y'know, I've been thinking about a part time job as a gondolier - doesn't everybody?  I'm intrigued ... is this on the Mystic River?

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## Bill Findley

Liuqin陳子涵 Chen Zi Han

Dont know how to embed , but if you check out this Taiwanese womans renditions of Italian faves on Youtube, playing a liuquin, I guarantee youll be impressed.

Bill

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DavidKOS

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## Mandolin Cafe

Bit of news for those interested in Italian classical mandolin. We see quite a lot of activity but some of it is not particularly newsworthy in respect to it being something brand new or of importance that it merits mention.

The largest single Italian mandolin event we know of just wrapped up: International Italian Mandolin and Guitar Winter Academy in Sorrento. It's a pretty big crowd they attract with outstanding talent as instructors. The summer version of the same event is held in Genoa.

NAR International, a recording and publishing house in Italy that serves the Italian indie market just re-released an important recording originally from 2002 we think is very special and has apparently been out of print for some time near as we can tell. _Serenata veneziana with mandolin_ features Ugo Orlandi, Alessandro Bono, Maura Mazzonetto and Sergio Zigiotti is now available on amazon in the U.S. and amazon European and UK.

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Beanzy, 

brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Frankdolin, 

Mandophile, 

phillawrencemandolin

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## frankie

> There's lots of singing with mandolin backup. The mandolinists take over at 15:48
> 
> https://youtu.be/QG7BSaAyN_c
> 
> A musical stroll in Naples:
> 
> https://youtu.be/k3RbY8aeuoY


Thanks for both of these! Frankly, I like that jam better when the singer is running the show - she has a lot of spirit!  :Smile:

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## Jim Garber

Hey! Where can I get one of those bass tambourines?

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DavidKOS

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## Mandolin Cafe

It's Luigi Embergher's birthday. Let's get the party started. Gonna be a lotta candles. Super Bowl party brings on an entirely different meaning. So many puns. So little time.

 :Cool:

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Bob A, 

brunello97, 

bstanish, 

DavidKOS, 

Jim Garber

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## brunello97

> ...... So many puns. So little time.


Apparently, Luigi was particularly adept at the "Ave Maria" pass.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Happy Birthday, Luigi!

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Martin Jonas

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## brunello97

Looks tasty, Jim.  Did you bake that?

Served with Neapolitan ice cream, of course.  :Wink: 

Mick

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DavidKOS, 

Jim Garber

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## Jim Garber

Actually it looks like the strings on the cake-o-lin are linguini. Definitely a Roman mandolin, tho. You can tell by the arched fretboard.

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## Mtl Seán

Wow that Carlo Aonzo was a blast! Thank you Jim.

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## Mandophile

I recently played with Mike Guggino when he visited Petaluma in late summer last year. He's my 'guggino' the Sicilian word for cousin. A Sicilian cousin and probably somewhere in my K14a DNA!!!! LOL!  Seriously, he is a competent mandolinist who roams the range. While he plays the bluegrass-oriented stuff, his heart and passion remain with the Italian repertoire. It may appear as though it comes naturally to him but let's be honest, what we hear as natural is a lifetime devoted to study, practice, and striving toward perfection. His models, the examples that inspired, his dedication to executing a reliable tremolo and his musical execution of classical details (triplets, syncopation, cadenza runs) shaped his versatile repertoire. 
 It can not be said too often that to play the so-called folk music requires training in the classical. That is not to say that you must be classically trained but it sure does help. I'm reminded that some of the ballo liscio dances can appear deceptively simple. However, if you're not able to shift positions, relax the wrist--yet keep it in control, and if you think you can read the notes and make music. Well, I have a rude awakening for you. You can't. 
The original question asked by Shayan is a legitimate inquiry into who has earned the 'right' or 'privilege' to render the Italian classics or for that matter, Greek, Rumanian, French, Brazilian etc etc.  What difference should it make whether an Italian, an Italian American, or a Jew, or a Christian or a non-Christian plays the music? (rhetorical question here). What makes the difference is the personality of the individual. Each of us brings something special to the music we perform. My personality and characteristics derive from a lively Sicilian family tempered by a rational Scottish side to me. I consider it a beautiful blend but somehow when I'm into playing the music I love, I surrender to the Sicilian side.   :Smile:   If I'm outside my 'domain' and I'm playing flute on an Etude from the Germanic Boehm tradition, I yield to that demand. If I'm engaged in French chanson or musette on accordion, I must adhere to the French musette composers as I make myself into "their own image."  That may sound silly but that's how I see it. The Italian composers in the ballo liscio tradition (I've now researched more than 130) were immersed in the classical tradition, well-educated, well-trained, and devoted to the models (mainly the men they heard while growing up). I grew up listening to my teachers who were immersed in their teachers. The point here is that unless you are inspired by the highest standards, the musicians who were exemplars in their own music genre of sphere of influence, then, you probably should back off and leave it to others. While that may sound arrogant, I have no objections to anyone playing the music that I love. It's like a race horse at the track: they all want to win but only one does. Yes, a horse must qualify to even enter the race but the beauty of watching (listening) comes down to whether or not there is capital "B" Beauty in their rendering. A haphazard, sloppy rendition should never be allowed. Ever.
Since this is a stream of consciousness response, I will say that I had no intention to bring in Plato here but I just did. There is an ideal expression in every music genre. Each ethnic musical division demands so much from each of us. I do my best to meet the challenge and hope that it will be appreciated. In today's world of quick, thoughtless and meaningless 'likes' and monetized inflated 'hits' on YouTube, we all think we are the cat's pajamas. We're deceptively drawn into believing that we're totally nailing it. For that reason, we must be cautious while we bring forth a new video or a new CD track. We have an obligation to honor the composer and the arrangers who possessed the skill to shape a musical dance into a thing of capital B Beauty. Let us respect the music by respecting the composer.   
I don't know that I replied directly to Shayan's question but I feel so much better now having vented.

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

lowtone2, 

phillawrencemandolin

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## DavidKOS

> I recently played with Mike Guggino when he visited Petaluma in late summer last year. He's my 'guggino' the Sicilian word for cousin. A Sicilian cousin and probably somewhere in my K14a DNA!!!! LOL!


I'm not sure of the number but my Sicilian maternal DNA is strongest in the K range.

Hmmmmm, ...my family sounded more like "kuggina" to my ear....K, D, dialect....




> his heart and passion remain with the Italian repertoire. It may appear as though it comes naturally to him but let's be honest, what we hear as natural is a lifetime devoted to study, practice, and striving toward perfection. His models, the examples that inspired, his dedication to executing a reliable tremolo and his musical execution of classical details (triplets, syncopation, cadenza runs) shaped his versatile repertoire. 
> * It can not be said too often that to play the so-called folk music requires training in the classical*. That is not to say that you must be classically trained but it sure does help. I'm reminded that some of the ballo liscio dances can appear deceptively simple. However, if you're not able to shift positions, relax the wrist--yet keep it in control, and if you think you can read the notes and make music. Well, I have a rude awakening for you. You can't. 
> 
> 
> ......What makes the difference is the personality of the individual. Each of us brings something special to the music we perform. 
> ......The Italian composers in the ballo liscio tradition (I've now researched more than 130) were immersed in the classical tradition, well-educated, well-trained, and devoted to the models
> .......The point here is that unless you are *inspired by the highest standards*, the musicians who were exemplars in their own music genre of sphere of influence, then, you probably should back off and leave it to others. 
> 
> ....... In today's world of quick, thoughtless and meaningless 'likes' and monetized inflated 'hits' on YouTube, we all think we are the cat's pajamas.* We're deceptively drawn into believing that we're totally nailing it.* For that reason, we must be cautious while we bring forth a new video or a new CD track. We have an obligation to honor the composer and the arrangers who possessed the skill to shape a musical dance into a thing of capital B Beauty. Let us respect the music by respecting the composer.   
> I don't know that I replied directly to Shayan's question but I feel so much better now having vented.


Thank you for opinion.

Italian mandolin = pretty close to classical mandolin

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## Mandophile

Yes, an opinion is just the beginning. I feel comfortable sharing them here. At the same time, I realize how it is so easy to misinterpret what is being said. I wouldn't want to be thought of as a snob or as if I own this particular music genre. However, I suppose that when one grows up with a certain type of music, it makes a huge difference in embedding it for a lifetime. It's a challenge to come to any music genre as a full adult and even harder to tackle it when the genre is not within your own upbringing. (that's an opinion to be discussed I'm sure)
Still, I have faith in the younger generation who is learning the music from the early 1900s. I am encouraged by the young men and women who are studying it and making it their own. The cafes may be disappearing but we can all create our own circolo!

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DavidKOS

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## phillawrencemandolin

Well, my newest CD is arriving tomorrow and it's all Italian music.  I play twin mandolins in harmony and I play the rhythm guitar also.  My friend Eddie Guthman plays upright bass.  The CD is called "Echoes of the Silent Fountain" and it's a tribute to the music of Matteo Casserino and Gino DiMichele.  Here's a link to my webpage on the recording: http://phillawrence.com/Echoes%20of%...0Fountain.html

And it should be available to download on CDBaby and other online stores in a week or two, maybe sooner.  Here's a link to CDBaby where you can hear samples; https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/phillawrence5

Here's a shot of the album cover:

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Mandophile

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## Mandophile

Not only is it a tribute to our dear, dear friends Matteo & Gino as renowned musicians but you honor and respect the composers and arrangers as well. You have created something with capital B beautiful that can be listened to for a lifetime. Because you were able to provide a preview copy to me, I have played along with each track. Everything is in the right key and 'tempo giusto.' 

How many poorly performed versions have I heard in my lifetime? Too many! The Silent Fountain original (cassette tape & LP) set the standard of perfection! I asked myself *How could anyone improve on it?*  That was my initial response to hearing about what you were doing with Silent Fountain. Over the past decade or so Bruce Zweig helped with technical conversion to MP3s, Gus Garelick and his Frittatas contributed great CDs and his group benefited from Gus's arrangements of these classics, and of course, my own ensemble and "Mando Liscio" CD spent much in preparation and rehearsal for our recording at Caffe Trieste studios. But I know that you devoted several months recording, mixing, and perfecting this ensemble of parts. 
At first I was doubtful but you won me over. (I can be a stickler but then so are you!) While there are those who incorrectly consider the ballo liscio music genre lacking in complexity, those of us who've devoted a lifetime to it know better. As I've said in numerous posts at Mando Cafe, this music is on the cusp of classical, it deserves to be approached with much care, great attention to detail, and above all with mental concentration, artistic preparation and practice. These are not sight-reading exercises to be inflicted on unsuspecting listeners. These pieces are of such high caliber that a musician must consider how to properly render them.The Maestros exist but for those not lucky enough to learn directly from them, your CD establishes an improved standard. Each track inculcates the true meaning of the ballo liscio tradition. You have raised the cultural curtain and I wholeheartedly salute you on your efforts. Your "Echoes" CD is produced with not only technical expertise but unqualified musicality! Mille Grazie!  
P.S. this is not a paid endorsement! LOL  :Mandosmiley:

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> Well, my newest CD is arriving tomorrow and it's all Italian music.  I play twin mandolins in harmony and I play the rhythm guitar also.


I just purchased my copy, and I really like it.

Did you use the archtop Gibson mandolin on some of the tracks?  just curious about the tone color. 




> . You have created something with capital B beautiful that can be listened to for a lifetime. your CD establishes an improved standard. Each track inculcates the true meaning of the ballo liscio tradition. You have raised the cultural curtain and I wholeheartedly salute you on your efforts. Your "Echoes" CD is produced with not only technical expertise but unqualified musicality! Mille Grazie!  
> P.S. this is not a paid endorsement! LOL


I agree, it's a worthy effort.

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## Mandophile

I'm glad you brought up that point. I feel strongly (as asserted in other threads) that the Neapolitan bowlback is the ONLY way to play this music. Of course, that's not always possible but I would have preferred hearing these on an authentic musical instrument. These dances were written with that instrument in mind and NOT a Gibson or any other flatback. This is such a philosophical approach to music but I'd rather that than to slough off the issue of resonance and tremolo. A far, far better listening experience if Neapolitan bowlbacks are used. That's just me! BTW, I don't think Gus uses a Neapolitan at all, always a flatback and of course, Matteo used a flatback and so, too, Rudy!  Oh Oh, I'm outnumbered!   :Mandosmiley:

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> I'm glad you brought up that point. I feel strongly (as asserted in other threads) that the Neapolitan bowlback is the ONLY way to play this music. Of course, that's not always possible but I would have preferred hearing these on an authentic musical instrument. These dances were written with that instrument in mind and NOT a Gibson or any other flatback. This is such a philosophical approach to music but I'd rather that than to slough off the issue of resonance and tremolo. A far, far better listening experience if Neapolitan bowlbacks are used. That's just me! BTW, I don't think Gus uses a Neapolitan at all, always a flatback and of course, Matteo used a flatback and so, too, Rudy!  Oh Oh, I'm outnumbered!


I use both bowlback and flatback mandolins - but all are _short scale Italian style with light roundwound strings_ and played with a pointed pick.

So many folks use modern mandolins that I can't complain - as many Italian guys in the USA used archtop mandolins - but my preference is for something that sounds more Italian.

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## Mandophile

"Mando Liscio" CD   FYI:

 Iona Ali plays a 1917 Gibson A2 and has been in the Silver Strings since 1976; also plays in the Helenicks, a Greek quartet. Student of Rudy Cipolla.
 Janice Fournier is the inspiration behind the founding in 2000 of the annual San Francisco Festival of the Mandolins; she plays with the Slavonian Traveling Band. 
 Kathy Sherak plays a 1913 Gibson A. She began playing Italian mandolin music with virtuoso Matteo Casserino in 1975 at Caffe Trieste,North Beach, San Francisco.
 Matt Vuksinich plays mandolin and tenor mandola in several Bay Area orchestras and their offshoot ensembles. He appears on this CD playing a 1950s D'Angelico A-style mandolin.
 Tom Romero plays a Guild steel string model gad-40 and an Esteve nylon string guitar model 404864.
Sheri Mignano Crawford plays a Petosa S-200 accordion with Italian musette.

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> "Mando Liscio" CD   FYI:
> 
>  Iona Ali plays a 1917 Gibson A2 and has been in the Silver Strings since 1976; also plays in the Helenicks, a Greek quartet. Student of Rudy Cipolla.
>  Janice Fournier is the inspiration behind the founding in 2000 of the annual San Francisco Festival of the Mandolins; she plays with the Slavonian Traveling Band. 
>  Kathy Sherak plays a 1913 Gibson A. She began playing Italian mandolin music with virtuoso Matteo Casserino in 1975 at Caffe Trieste,North Beach, San Francisco.
>  Matt Vuksinich plays mandolin and tenor mandola in several Bay Area orchestras and their offshoot ensembles. He appears on this CD playing a 1950s D'Angelico A-style mandolin.
>  Tom Romero plays a Guild steel string model gad-40 and an Esteve nylon string guitar model 404864.
> Sheri Mignano Crawford plays a Petosa S-200 accordion with Italian musette.


So even then it's hard to find Americans that use non-archtop American style instruments?
Or am I reading you wrong? sorry if so.

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## MikeZito

As both a mandolin player (be it a bad one) as well as the producer and co-host of what is (possibly) the longest-running all-Italian radio show in the United States (since 1936), I sure hope that not only is Italian mandolin music not being forgotten, but also hopeful that real traditional Italian music isn't being pushed aside by contemporary western music as well; (a fear that I am almost sure is present in almost all ethnic cultures).

As a player I someday hope to find a nice traditional Neapolitan-style mandolin to explore some Tarantella's and some other bits of traditional Italian playing.

This video features only some VERY rudimentary mandolin playing, but I certainly like the fact that somebody young is keeping tradition with the music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwqPmHi9A8g

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DavidKOS

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## brunello97

> Here's a shot of the album cover:


Thanks, Phil.  I'm DLing my copy from CDB right now.  Really looking forward to listening.  SF was a watershed moment for my mandolin playing.  
I've been playing most of the pieces off it for years now, and as Sheri suggests, the complexities and subtleties and humor of the pieces keeps emerging over time and attention to my work with them.  

David may groan, but I play all three mandolins styles with equal delight: archtops, flatbacks and Neapolitans. (Well, four if you count electric.)  I've enjoyed some of the SF pieces on one type of mandolin more than the other.  Then a year or so later, I'll switch mandolins and different nuances in the piece emerge.  Endlessly diverting.

(Now for sure) Sheri may groan, but I am learning to play most of these (very rudimentarily) on the accordion.  Now this is fun.  

Mick

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DavidKOS, 

phillawrencemandolin

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## DavidKOS

> David may groan, but I play all three mandolins styles with equal delight: archtops, flatbacks and Neapolitans. (Well, four if you count electric.)  I've enjoyed some of the SF pieces on one type of mandolin more than the other.  Then a year or so later, I'll switch mandolins and different nuances in the piece emerge.  Endlessly diverting.


Mick, feel free to enjoy playing music on any mandolin type you want.

I'm not the Mandolin Police.

Just because I prefer the flatback and Neapolitan instruments I grew up playing, doesn't change the fact the in America some of the finest European style players since Apollon have chosen Gibson (or L and H) archtop mandolins.

BUT

When you play through some of the the Calace and Munier material, those long scale instruments make the stretches even harder on some of the extended chords.

Also, the archtop instruments have longer scale AND thicker strings - this means higher string tension and that gets one away from the "Meridionale" tone of lower tension light strings.

It's personal taste...sort of like playing Bluegrass on my bowlback. It's a lot of fun but not the way most folks choose to do it.

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brunello97

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## Simon DS

Some Italian tunes in tab format:

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DavidKOS, 

Martucci

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## DavidKOS

> Some Italian tunes in tab format:


And thanks for including staff notation for those of us that only use TAB for playing Renaissance lute.

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## brunello97

> Also, the archtop instruments have longer scale AND thicker strings - this means higher string tension and that gets one away from the "Meridionale" tone of lower tension light strings.
> 
> It's personal taste...sort of like playing Bluegrass on my bowlback. It's a lot of fun but not the way most folks choose to do it.


Thanks, David. You know I'm just teasing you.... 

Lately, I've been playing my Gibson with the Dogal Calace Medio strings--on John Bernunzio's recommendation.  I like them a lot and they help work in that sweet spot I've been after been an oval hole and f-hole sound.  I've been using the Dogal Dolce's on my bowls and flatbacks for a long while and then it was a doh! moment talking to JB.  

There's a great old photo of David Grisman--as a young chubby kid--chopping away on a bowlback with some equally young BGers.
All those floppy open string notes on Jerusalem Ridge sound great on a bowl, imho.  

My favorite bowlgrass tune.

Mick

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DavidKOS

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## phillawrencemandolin

Hi David:  I play a 1912 Gibson F2 mandolin.  That's really the only instrument I use.  It has a rich tone, especially in the lower range.  On my CD the harmonies are played on the same instrument, of course, so the blending of tones is impeccable.  I also strove to match every ornament as precisely as possible, and I mixed the two mandolins far left and far right so the best way to experience the CD is to listen on a good sound system and to sit in the middle of the speakers or use good headphones.  Often there is a third or a fourth mandolin as well.  I use a 1988 Martin D28 guitar with light gauge Marquis strings.  That was as close as I could get to reproducing the tone of Gino's Gibson harp guitar.

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DavidKOS, 

Mandophile

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## DavidKOS

> Hi David:  I play a 1912 Gibson F2 mandolin.  That's really the only instrument I use.  It has a rich tone, especially in the lower range.


Thanks for the response. It is a nice sounding instrument all right. It doesn't sound quite like the short-scale Italian style instruments I use, but it certainly has a pretty tone on recordings.

Of course I am in the vast _minority_ of players that don't like long scale archtop mandolins for my own use. But I'd rather hear Italian music on an American mandolin than no Italian music, and you certainly put in the time to make this sound good.

Besides, you are in good company as many Italian players wound up using American made instruments.

Anyway, my big thanks is for taking the time and effort to continue the spread of what I think is some of the finest mandolin music in the world, the Ballo Liscio music and related folk music.

In what seems to me a world where mandolin seems to be considered a Bluegrass instrument, we need to remember the real roots of the mandolin.

----------

Mandophile, 

phillawrencemandolin

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## lowtone2

> Liuqin陳子涵 Chen Zi Han
> 
> Don’t know how to embed , but if you check out this Taiwanese woman’s renditions of Italian faves on Youtube, playing a liuquin, I guarantee you’ll be impressed.
> 
> Bill


 I don't know anything about the folk music, but all serious mandolinists are at least aware of Calace, right?

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> I don't know anything about the folk music, but all serious mandolinists are at least aware of Calace, right?


Thanks for posting.

However, I'm sure that there are people that consider themselves "serious" mandolinists that have not heard of Calace.

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brunello97, 

Mandophile

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## pheffernan

> In what seems to me a world where mandolin seems to be considered a Bluegrass instrument, we need to remember the real roots of the mandolin.


It seems to me a world where mandolin seems to be considered a kitchen slicer.

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> It seems to me a world where mandolin seems to be considered a kitchen slicer.


That "e" sure makes a difference...where's my mandoline...I'm off to the cucina.

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brunello97

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## DavidKOS

> Hi David:  I play a 1912 Gibson F2 mandolin.  That's really the only instrument I use.


Phil, last night I played a short scale 1918 Gibson mandolin , and it was a lovely instrument indeed. Wonderful balanced tone, had 24 frets, and I would play Italian music on it in a minute. 

As a matter of fact, the owner (an Irish fiddler) wanted to hear his instrument, and I played "Tra Veglia e Sonno" for him.

He said he really liked hearing his instrument from the other end.

Well, I certainly wouldn't refuse one of those Gibsons.

----------

mandopops

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## mandopops

David, glad you dug the Gibson oval. I love them. You know I love the Italian style Mandolin. Although I don't own a playable Bowl back (shame on me) they do sound great for the Italian music. (I do have a Sicilian Carmelo Cantania flat back that I play for the "authentic" Italian sound.) The old Gibson ovals (A or F's) are my go-to axes. They sound great on Italian & Classical Music. The bonus is they are great on funkier Music, too.
Since I'm more accustomed to the flat-backs, I've thought about getting a flat-back German style Mandolin. I've never played a flat-back version, but I think it would work for me.
Joe B

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DavidKOS

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## Jim Garber

> Phil, last night I played a short scale 1918 Gibson mandolin , and it was a lovely instrument indeed.


I think you mean a short *neck* Gibson mandolin. I believe that all Gibsons have the same scale length but the F-5s have the necks set further back so the bridge is more centered on the soundboard.

----------

DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> I think you mean a short *neck* Gibson mandolin. I believe that all Gibsons have the same scale length but the F-5s have the necks set further back so the bridge is more centered on the soundboard.


This was a shorter scale than the typical f hole models I've played - and not liked. This was a sweet instrument.

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## brunello97

> This was a shorter scale than the typical f hole models I've played - and not liked. This was a sweet instrument.


Hmmm.  My understanding was the same as Jim's, that my 1914A had the same scale length as a 1924F.  But I am well known for being mistaken about things.  It does have the same as my '50s EM150, which is an A-50 body......if I am not mistaken.

Any clarificationism would help.

Mick

----------

DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> Hmmm.  My understanding was the same as Jim's, that my 1914A had the same scale length as a 1924F.  But I am well known for being mistaken about things.  It does have the same as my '50s EM150, which is an A-50 body......if I am not mistaken.
> 
> Any clarificationism would help.
> 
> Mick



https://reverb.com/item/7607440-1934...-orig-f-5-case

"Here is a very rare example of a 1934 Gibson F-10 Mandolin.  It is serial number 91332 and the Batch number is 1149-5.  As all of these mandolins were this mandolin originally had a short scale length neck.  However, this particular mandolin was converted to an F-5 scale length neck by master luthier Chris Berkov."

So the scale is not the same, it seems...

but maybe not the same as my European-style instruments...



https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...-scale-lengths

but maybe not...

"As far as I know Orville decided on the longer 13 7/8" scale very early on and all his mandolins, and those of the Gibson company were 13 7/8". It was effectively one fret longer than the bowlback 13". Gibson historian Julius Bellson wrote thatat Orville was experimenting with a 15" scale, but the strings kept breaking with the increased tension and so settled on 13 7/8". I don't think the F-5 was any longer."

next post....

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## DavidKOS

13 7/8 to 14 1/8....

http://www.lmii.com/products/media-g...lypage-noimage

Plan, 1923 Lloyd Loar Gibson F5 mandolin

Scale length	13.938"

That's a bit longer....

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online...Explained.html

Mandolin
# frets	scale
Gibson F5	29	13.875"
Gibson A model	22	14.125"

So the winner is - Gibson had 2 scale lengths.

----------

MikeZito

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## mandopops

I think there is a difference in the playability between my F5 & my ovals. The Ovals feel like a little less stretch & the strings are under less tension. The F5 has what I would say is a little more resistance. 
Joe B

----------

DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> I think there is a difference in the playability between my F5 & my ovals. The Ovals feel like a little less stretch & the strings are under less tension. The F5 has what I would say is a little more resistance. 
> Joe B


That may be why I never have warmed up to F5's.

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## Jim Garber

Sorry David, that Reverb seller is also mistaken and he did not have an original F-10. Retrofret has one. They say:




> Overall length is 26 7/16 in. (67.1 cm.), 10 in. (25.4 cm.) wide at lower bout, and 1 3/4 in. (4.4 cm.) in depth, measured at side of rim. Scale length is 14 in. (356 mm.). Width of nut is 1 1/8 in. (29 mm.).


That is pretty close to the 13-7/8” standard. Gibson always stayed with that.

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## brunello97

Well, David, whatever the reason and whatever the math...welcome to the "dark side".  :Wink: 

I'm glad you've discovered what I've been enjoying for years: playing the Italian repertoire on a '10s Gibson A...in addition to my shorter scale bowls and flatbacks.

That isn't quite the sartori I had when I discovered _what you had been enjoying for years_:  the very pleasure of playing this amazing trove of music.

Mick

----------

DavidKOS

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## mandopops

I played Mandolin for 15-20 yrs before I “warmed up” to the F5 & got one. I didn’t like the way they played or sounded. Then it grew on me. I still prefer the ovals.
An example is comparing 2 Bach CDs, the Caterina/Marshall & Thile’s. This is not about who or which is better. I find myself listening to the Caterina/Marshal a lot more. One thing is hearing the interplay of the 2 instruments (love that Mando-Cello). The other is hearing Caterina’s bowl Mandolin for the Bach. It sounds wonderful. On Thile’s, hearing the F5 solo for that long period of time, I don’t enjoy as much.
Off the Italian topic somewhat, I know.
Joe B

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Simon DS

----------


## brunello97

> I played Mandolin for 15-20 yrs before I “warmed up” to the F5 & got one. I didn’t like the way they played or sounded. Then it grew on me. I still prefer the ovals.


That's what I know, Pops.  Maybe it is the oval hole (and the way their tops are stiffened) vs. the F hole top and bracing--and the resultant tone differences--more than the scale length that's at issue in this discussion?

Going from a 13" scale bowl or flatback to a my ~13-7/8" Gibson is always an adjustment--_in my left hand_.  Going from an round hole A to an F is more of an adjustment in my _ear_.  

I prefer the oval hole sound (there's generalized statement for you) but I admit I like the way the F style mandolin neck meets the body and having that extra room for my pretty big hands. 

I'm still looking for that elusive mandolin that has the sound between that of an F and an oval hole.  The Pavas and Ellis-es I have played have been in that territory.  Once I get over this non-stop fisarmonica jag I've been on, it will be time to get one.

Mick

----------

DavidKOS

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## Jim Garber

Hi Mick and Mandopops: For me it is either/or. I have my Gibson for the vintage tone, plus the Brentrup A4C for modernized oval tone and my Flatiron A5-2 for that f-hole tone. The few oval hole hybrids I have played (x-braced + longer neck) don't do it for me. At least the ones I have played left me cold.

----------


## brunello97

> Hi Mick and Mandopops: For me it is either/or.


Yep. Ci sono ancora Le Cose in Comune.

Mick.

----------

DavidKOS, 

Jim Garber

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## Mandophile

The mandolins are still heard at Caffe Trieste, once a month on Saturday mornings. I try to post the schedule on MandoCafe's calendar. In addition, I've proposed a workshop for CMSA during the San Diego convention this year. Rudy Cipolla (1900-2000) is a San Francisco Original--steeped in the mandolin tradition as taught to him by his father in a barbershop and later in Portland, OR. Rudy went on to 'major in' vaudeville in San Francisco and became a full-fledged composer when he turned 60 years old. He had worked as an arranger for NBC on the radio.  See attached announcement and my call for musicians to participate. Rudy may be gone but he'll never be forgotten! A true mentor to Mike Marshall and David Grisman and so many others! Be a part of the Rudy tradition.

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS

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## Jim Garber

Sadly I missed any music at Caffe Trieste when I was in San Francisco a couple of years ago. It was August and they take a break then I was told.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Bill Foss

I used to buy comic books and candy from Rudy in San Francisco when I was a kid. His store was called Rudy's Book Nook. He was always behind the counter with his black oval hole Gibson, with staff paper spread all over the place in the midst of composing and arranging. He was always so engrossed in his music, it was all I could do to get his attention to give him money for the things I wanted to buy.

Sheri, thanks again for championing the preservation of Italian mandolin music!

----------

DavidKOS, 

Mandophile, 

Paul Kotapish

----------


## Mandophile

Bill's story matches everyone's experience. If you stopped into the Book Nook, he trusted visitors! Of course, had you brought him a bottle of mint Fernet Branca, he would have put down his marker to talk. 
Good News! as soon as I get enough of the transcriptions converted into PDFs, I'll post a Drop Box link devoted exclusively to Rudy's music. In preparation for the CMSA convention and also to make sure everyone who knew Rudy gets a chance to play his music again.

----------

Beanzy, 

DavidKOS, 

Joe Bartl

----------


## Jim Garber

> Italian music is not forgotten here in Asheville, Mike Guggino and Barrett Smith play here and in Brevard once a month as their Steep Canyon Rangers tour schedule allows. Fantastic stuff !!!


Bump this older thread

...and now this recording: https://www.transylvaniatimes.com/st...bum/49618.html

from their web site: https://mikegugginoandbarrettsmith.com/about

----------

brunello97, 

Cary Fagan, 

DavidKOS, 

Frankdolin

----------


## Mandophile

I've already heard some tracks! They have resuscitated the Italian dance tradition. This is a turning point for renewed interest in learning these ballo liscio dances and for more mandolin players to learn how to read notation, not tab!

----------

DavidKOS, 

Jim Garber

----------


## danielpatrick

This album is amazing! Mike, Barrett and I actually got to meet in person and record an in person Mandolins and Beer episode, airing this week!

- - - Updated - - -

They definitely sing your praises Sheri!

----------

DavidKOS, 

Jim Garber

----------


## JeffD

> Hey guys 
> Does anybody else feel like the Italian side and heritage of the mandolin is being forgotten and overshadowed by say bluegrass and Irish music ??


Not really. Bluegrass is really a minority music in the context of the world. Bluegrass may not even be the biggest minority music. Even in the parts of the US where it is "big", it is not that big. (To most folks, anything with a banjo is automatically bluegrass, and couldn't identify the mandolin if you gave them three chances.)

I think we exist in a kind of bubble, being immersed in our bluegrass/americana musical culture, and tend to have an exaggerated view of the generalization of our corner of the world. Most people do not play an instrument. Of the small minority who do, most do not play the mandolin. Of the small minority of a minority of those that do, most do not play bluegrass. Except in pockets of the US.

While Bluegrass has its following worldwide, I would believe that most mandolins and mandolinnish instruments world wide are not playing bluegrass. They are playing classical, and they are playing local folk traditions. And places where Italian folk traditions predominate, the mandolin is probably properly represented.

----------

DavidKOS, 

Sherry Cadenhead, 

Simon DS

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

We're running a feature on the Mike Guggino and Barrett Smith CD in a few days so let me be the first to state the obvious: "_boy, Italian music is sure getting a lot of press these days._" 

Kidding. Sort of. Had to get this new Duo Mantar album announced today, and it's really a very remarkable project as well. There's a ton of great music that being released all the time, and right now there's a lot of really amazing new material to be listening to.

----------

brunello97, 

danielpatrick, 

DavidKOS, 

Frankdolin, 

Simon DS

----------


## Simon DS

I play mainly Irish because it’s accessible.
I would like to play lots of other genres but they aren’t as accessible.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Sherry Cadenhead

> Bump this older thread
> 
> ...and now this recording: https://www.transylvaniatimes.com/st...bum/49618.html
> 
> from their web site: https://mikegugginoandbarrettsmith.com/about


Jim, clicking on the link doesn't take me to the recording. What am I doing wrong?

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## brunello97

> .....They have resuscitated the Italian dance tradition. This is a turning point for renewed interest in learning these ballo liscio dances....


Do they dance, too?  
When folks start dancing again then I'll _really_ feel the resuscitation....

Mick

----------

DavidKOS, 

Mandophile

----------


## lowtone2

Here's some preview of the album, after about 40 minutes of...other stuff. I think the reason we don't hear much of the italian mandolin is that it takes a stone cold virtuoso to play it. Guggino is in that category.

----------

brunello97, 

ccravens, 

DavidKOS, 

Frankdolin, 

Mandophile, 

Simon DS

----------


## Simon DS

Beautifully played! 
Thanks for posting this, and MC.
At 39:36, any kind soul know the names of these tunes?

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DavidKOS, 

lowtone2

----------


## DavidKOS

I think the first is Speranze perdute:

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...eranze-Perdute

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...how-to-play-it

http://www.paperclipdesign.com/19ctunes/speranz.gif

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...ns-sheet-music

----------

brunello97, 

Jairo Ramos Parra, 

lowtone2, 

Simon DS

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

Great episode of Mandolins and Beer Podcast with Mike Guggino and Barrett Smith regarding their new album _Mia Dolce Farfalla_. Special props to Sheri Mignano Crawford whose epic work documenting so much Italian music history is discussed in the episode. This new album is the front page feature starting tomorrow morning.

----------

DavidKOS, 

lowtone2

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

More Italian music not being forgotten: Acoustic Disc just rereleased the David Grisman, Beppe Gambetta, Carlo Aonzo recording _Traversata_ here as a download.

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

lowtone2, 

trodgers

----------


## Bob Gnann

Funny that this thread just popped up again.  I recently found a bowlback at an estate sale made by Geo. Bauer Co. Philadelphia circa 1900.  (Thanks Jim Garber for help with ID).  It needed new strings and a tail piece. No sooner did I order those than I managed to injure my hip and I'm not able to get to my work shop to make the repairs.  
Hopefully by the end of this week.  What to do to pass the time?
I have been surfing YT and listening to Italian mandolin music.  What an ear opener!  I came into mandolin by the bluegrass route.  For many years nothing but BG, then more recently I have branched off into Celtic music also.  My fiddle playing led me in that direction.   And now the bowlback brings me to Italian.  
I will agree with the notion that this site doesn't have a lot of Italian content, but it represents the input of its members and contributors.  And as such I look forward to many more stimulating discussions.
I would encourage you to give a listen to, perhaps,  Antonio Calsolaro playing Tarantela Napolentana (did I hear a little Jerusalem Ridge there?) or Gianni Sozzi  playing Funiculi Funicula (you'll recognize the melody immediately).  Might not be to everyone's taste, but made me realize this is historically a part of the evolution of our mandolin obsession that deserves at least a little more attention. Ciao! for now![ATTACH=CONFIG]195560

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## Mandolin Cafe

> I have been surfing YT and listening to Italian mandolin music.  What an ear opener!  I came into mandolin by the bluegrass route.  For many years nothing but BG, then more recently I have branched off into Celtic music also.  My fiddle playing led me in that direction.   And now the bowlback brings me to Italian.  
> I will agree with the notion that this site doesn't have a lot of Italian content, but it represents the input of its members and contributors.  And as such I look forward to many more stimulating discussions.


Well, there is this discussion which has over 200K views, running for over 7 years that's quite a bit of Italian related content. For some reason the author put it in a different category, or did so by mistake--I don't know. We typically don't move threads unless requested. Some of my comments are kind of tongue in cheek. There's actually quit a lot of discussion and content around the subject but it doesn't all land in this category. But at the end of the day this is a site largely about mandolins, not exactly something you find on every city block like a guitar. Then pare it down to classical, electric mandolin, mandola and the like and you're looking at 1% of a very small number.

Oh, and this discussion, itself in the General category. I'm tellin' ya, SOOOO much talk about Italian mandolin! LOL

----------

brunello97, 

lowtone2

----------


## brunello97

Thanks for linking this over to Sheri's thread, Scott.  

Her amazing working collecting and collating Italian and Italian - American music from the classic mandolin era is a self-less and priceless treasure trove of music, biographical and cultural information.

Sheri is truly working tirelessly to keep this music alive through _playing the music_...not simply recordings.

Mick

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Bob Gnann

Thanks Scott for the re-direct.  And Sherri great work.  Now that's Italian!

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## Eugene

> I've already heard some tracks! They have resuscitated the Italian dance tradition. This is a turning point for renewed interest in learning these ballo liscio dances and for more mandolin players to learn how to read notation, not tab!


Federica Calvino Prina, Beppe Gambetta's wife, published _Traditional Italian Dances_, a fine book with CD of audio examples as well (performed by the likes of—conveniently enough—Beppe Gambetta, Carlo Aonzo, the Orchestra a Pizzico Ligure, etc.) back in 2000.  My own copy is still in a box after my last move, or I'd offer a more formal citation.  (I'm not likely to feel compelled to formally engage in dance or need written references to do so authentically.)  I'm sure the curious can easily Google it up. It's worth having for the CD alone.

----------


## Eugene

Well, I just did a little Googling.  I found an affiliated Amazon vendor is offering a still-new copy for $902.81.  I like the book–CD, but maybe not quite _that_ much.  Guess I'm glad I bought mine in person during the single digits of the current millennium.

----------


## Mandophile

On the cover, that's my 1900 Antonio Grauso mandolin with iridescent (abalone shell) butterfly! When Guggino told me about the title track, composed by him, I knew he had to see this image. I was thrilled when he happily used it to personify the fluttering tremolos of a true Italian mandolinist.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## brunello97

> Federica Calvino Prina, Beppe Gambetta's wife, published _Traditional Italian Dances_, a fine book with CD of audio examples as well (performed by the likes of—conveniently enough—Beppe Gambetta, Carlo Aonzo, the Orchestra a Pizzico Ligure, etc.) back in 2000.  My own copy is still in a box after my last move, or I'd offer a more formal citation.  (I'm not likely to feel compelled to formally engage in dance or need written references to do so authentically.)  I'm sure the curious can easily Google it up. It's worth having for the CD alone.


I may be due for some clarification here, Eug.  

I've got Federica's book as well, and if I'm not mistaken her expertise is in traditional Italian dances, which I understand differently from how ballo liscio is described through the frame of the music Sheri is compiling.  

Smooth dancing.   There's a lot of two steps, paso dobles, tangos, fox trots, beguines, etc.  We enjoy going to the village sagras around our place in Liguria and that's the kind of dancing folks still do which I take as begin 'modern' in a way.  
Any well raised Texan (of a certain age) can _smoothly_ ease his way onto the dance floor.  :Wink: 

There are folks doing folkloric dances, of course, but that collection of tunes from Carlo, Beppe, et al really aren't folkloric tunes by and large, in my estimate.   

Maybe I've got this all mixed up but thought to jump in and see what clarity I can come out with.

Mick

----------

DavidKOS, 

Musicapralis704

----------


## Jordan Ramsey

Calace is in the shop, so the Ellis will have to suffice.  Trying not to forget over here.

----------

DavidKOS, 

frankie, 

Jairo Ramos Parra, 

Joe Bartl, 

Paul Kotapish

----------


## Eugene

> I may be due for some clarification here, Eug.  
> 
> I've got Federica's book as well, and if I'm not mistaken her expertise is in traditional Italian dances, which I understand differently from how ballo liscio is described through the frame of the music Sheri is compiling.  
> 
> Smooth dancing.   There's a lot of two steps, paso dobles, tangos, fox trots, beguines, etc.  We enjoy going to the village sagras around our place in Liguria and that's the kind of dancing folks still do which I take as begin 'modern' in a way.


Yes, I also understand these to be somewhat discretely distinct traditions, but united in being examples of (1) music as accompaniment to dance and (2) an effort to not forget Italian mandolin music.  Sorry to have offered some unintended mud to these waters.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## SignorNic

I definitely think so, if you look at big mandolin channels on YouTube you can barely find anything other than Bluegrass. It bothers me too, probably as I'm half-Italian.

----------


## brunello97

> Yes, I also understand these to be somewhat discretely distinct traditions, but united in being examples of (1) music as accompaniment to dance and (2) an effort to not forget Italian mandolin music.  Sorry to have offered some unintended mud to these waters.


No worries, Eug.  

You made me laugh though, remembering being at one of these vilalge Sagras, when I was asked to dance by a slightly regal nonna which had me feeling pretty good.  

She might have been old enough to know some of the local folkloric dances, but this was a cha-cha.

I thought I was doing pretty well, dancing _abbastanza liscio_ when she whispered discretely in my ear: 
"Ti aiuta davvero dire 'cha cha cha' ad ogni passo?"

Which I guess I was.   :Redface:  _Liscio e nel cuore_.

Mick

----------

Eugene

----------


## Eugene

Ha!  Every bit as gainly as you'd expect of a bookwormy fisheries biologist, I'm rather deliberate in _not_ dancing, while vocalizing or otherwise.

----------

brunello97

----------


## rodarbal

He does a heck of  Bach.  Not Italian, but not blue or Irish

----------


## Mandophile

Roman Koval, thank you for that input. I feel you hit on one of those sensitive (irritating) aspects in defining what is Italian in Italian music and who gets to be classified as composing "Italian music." In addition, there is the other challenge of defining "Italian American" music in a movie. Coppola's father Carmine Coppola did compose a tarantella (included in my Mandolin Melodies book) but I don't recall it being used unless it was what mandolinist-composer Giovanni Vicari played in the wedding scence. Don't feel like rewatching that scene as I type this. Help! That said, I offer no answers. I simply wish to address this need to gunnysack all music heard in a Hollywood movie as "Italian." Is Carmine Coppola's wedding tarantella quinessential Italian? Yes. Is Nino Rota a great Italian composer? Yes. Is his Godfather theme quinessential Italian? Maybe. Ok, did I stir the pot?

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

mandopops, 

Musicapralis704

----------


## DavidKOS

> Roman Koval, thank you for that input. I feel you hit on one of those sensitive (irritating) aspects in defining what is Italian in Italian music and who gets to be classified as composing "Italian music." In addition, there is the other challenge of defining "Italian American" music in a movie. Coppola's brother/flutist Carmine Coppola did compose a tarantella (included in my Mandolin Melodies book) but I don't recall it being used unless it was what mandolinist-composer Giovanni Vicari played in the wedding scence. Don't feel like rewatching that scene as I type this. Help! That said, I offer no answers. I simply wish to address this need to gunnysack all music heard in a Hollywood movie as "Italian." Is Carmine Coppola's wedding tarantella quinessential Italian? Yes. Is Nino Rota a great Italian composer? Yes. Is his Godfather theme quinessential Italian? Maybe. Ok, did I stir the pot?


In a way, Italian music in America can be any folkloric Italian regional style, ballo liscio, Neapolitan songs, pop music by Italian-American singers, Italian and other movie music, and so on!

Some folks I played for wanted to hear folklore...others want "Mambo Italiano"!

Pot still stirring....

----------

brunello97, 

Mandophile, 

mandopops

----------


## mandopops

Responding to Sheri, the Coppola Godfather Tarentella & Godfather Mazurka are used in the film & on the sound track. They are performed by the Wedding band w Mr. Vicari, although difficult to hear the Mandolin. In the movie, they are in the background & when there are dancing shots. The soundtrack has snippets of both pieced together. I wish there were full takes of each & with Vicari’s Mandolin a bit more prominent. Alas. Also, I thought Carmine Coppola was Francis’ father. I’ll stand corrected.
Quintessential Italian? I’d play them on an Italian gig. 
Joe B

----------

brunello97, 

Mandophile

----------


## Aurora

Carmine Coppola is absolutely Francis Ford's father.

----------

Mandophile, 

Musicapralis704

----------


## Mandophile

yes, August, the older brother of Francis, was Dean, school of humanities/music at SFSU. Carmine was their father. A talented family.

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Musicapralis704

----------


## brunello97

I admit to having the good fortune of being Irish, and being raised by my Italian padroni while my mother insisted we Texan pups learn Spanish.

The cultural overlaps and blurring have always been a source of fascination and good humor for me, but I do understand Sher's point about the need for clarity and the understanding and appreciation of original sources when it comes to her scholarship with Italian and Italian-American music.

These cultures (eg Irish, American, Mexican, Italian, Cajun) are melting pots in their own right. But there is great value in knowing the deeper roots of music and not to get lost only in the popular hybridized manifestations.

All those musical traditions suffer from the abuse of pastiche both at home and abroad.

There was (and still is) a whole genre of Italian music that riffs off '50s American cocktail jazz, ur-rock and roll, salsa, etc.  The Conte fratelli and Nino Rota (and other cinema score composers) mined this deeply.  

I think it is pretty amazing music. All the better for having an overlay from a deeply lyrical musical culture in its own right.  I wouldn't quibble with them about this being _American-Italian_ music or somehow lesser because of its accessibility or lack of authenticity.  

The value in learning the depth and roots of music is inarguable to me.  I think that such powerful musical cultures (such as jazz and the Italian / Italian American music Sheri is nurturing) are strong enough to withstand the occasional Dean Martin or Fred Buscaglione.

Around our house, Pedro Infante (or Caruso) wasn't Mexican-or Italian-music.  It was just _music_.

Then when nighttime came and we could tune in the X that gumbo we're stirring got even tastier.

Mick

----------

DavidKOS, 

Joe Bartl, 

Mandophile, 

mandopops, 

Musicapralis704

----------


## mandopops

Micks post has triggered some memories of my mother. Im half Italian, my mothers side. Her parents came over on the boat & have their names on the wall on Ellis Island. Remember we still honor immigrants. I still identify more with my Italian side because my grandmother, we always called her Nonni, lived with us as I grew up. 
Food & Music were important. My mothers taste in music was typical of her generation, Big Bands, Nat Cole Trio 78s were records in our home. She loved Judy Garland, I think she played the Live at Carnegie Hall record my whole life. She also loved Dinah Washington & out of character loved Patsy Cline. She called her the Judy Garland of Country Music. High praise from my Mom. She would play Opera records, too. She called it Italian Soul Music. I didnt appreciate it until later. She loved the Italian crooners like Sinatra, Bennet, etc, but hated Dean Martin. I mean really. She would imitate a low croony type voice ala Dino & say thats Not Singing. (Funny that years later I saw Jerry Lewis live, I had been a Clown & liked to see old style comics).
Eventually I picked up Mandolin & appreciate the Italian side, as well as Blues, Jazz, Bluegrass. After some lessons with Jethro I asked him if he could teach me an Italian tune or 2 to play for my mother. He did so gladly without hesitation. I still play his chord melody version of Sorrento to this day. I remember playing it for my Mom, she smiled & looked a little bewildered. Heres her funky Blues loving Clown son playing Italian music on a Mandolin.
Sharing some memories. Italian Mandolin not forgotten.
Joe B

----------

Bob Clark, 

brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Mandophile, 

Musicapralis704

----------


## velogroove

> Micks post has triggered some memories of my mother. Im half Italian, my mothers side. Her parents came over on the boat & have their names on the wall on Ellis Island. Remember we still honor immigrants. I still identify more with my Italian side because my grandmother, we always called her Nonni, lived with us as I grew up. 
> Food & Music were important. My mothers taste in music was typical of her generation, Big Bands, Nat Cole Trio 78s were records in our home. She loved Judy Garland, I think she played the Live at Carnegie Hall record my whole life. She also loved Dinah Washington & out of character loved Patsy Cline. She called her the Judy Garland of Country Music. High praise from my Mom. She would play Opera records, too. She called it Italian Soul Music. I didnt appreciate it until later. She loved the Italian crooners like Sinatra, Bennet, etc, but hated Dean Martin. I mean really. She would imitate a low croony type voice ala Dino & say thats Not Singing. (Funny that years later I saw Jerry Lewis live, I had been a Clown & liked to see old style comics).
> Eventually I picked up Mandolin & appreciate the Italian side, as well as Blues, Jazz, Bluegrass. After some lessons with Jethro I asked him if he could teach me an Italian tune or 2 to play for my mother. He did so gladly without hesitation. I still play his chord melody version of Sorrento to this day. I remember playing it for my Mom, she smiled & looked a little bewildered. Heres her funky Blues loving Clown son playing Italian music on a Mandolin.
> Sharing some memories. Italian Mandolin not forgotten.
> Joe B


I play a lot of Italian music as part of my regular routine. Mostly the stuff that John T. LaBarbera transcribed, as well as other stuff that occasionally comes across my radar. Gugginos album is also a favorite, as well as Traversata by Grisman/Aonzo/Gambetta. 

Doing my best to keep it alive, in my small corner of the world!

----------


## Jim Imhoff

Brian Oberlin will be playing at the CMSA Kalamzoo Convention and will be playing Prelude for solo Mandolin - Giuseppe Sollima. Now _that_'s _Italian_--and pretty virtuosic.

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS

----------


## velogroove

Nice. Any details? Wouldnt mind seeing if itll be streamed

----------


## velogroove

I just remembered I uploaded a short clip of a few songs to share with a couple of friends  last year after I bought my Weber. Old songs, new mando
https://youtu.be/pGdz67nVsM0

----------

Joe Bartl

----------


## Neil Gladd

This is not available yet, but my CD of Early Italian Mandolin Soloists will be coming out later this year:

http://www.neilgladd.com/Publications/GLADDISC.html

----------

Beanzy, 

brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Eugene

----------


## WilliamWMeyer

> As both a mandolin player (be it a bad one) as well as the producer and co-host of what is (possibly) the longest-running *all-Italian radio show* in the United States (since 1936), I sure hope that not only is Italian mandolin music not being forgotten, but also hopeful that real traditional Italian music isn't being pushed aside by contemporary western music as well; (a fear that I am almost sure is present in almost all ethnic cultures).
> 
> As a player I someday hope to find a nice traditional Neapolitan-style mandolin to explore some Tarantella's and some other bits of traditional Italian playing.
> 
> This video features only some VERY rudimentary mandolin playing, but I certainly like the fact that somebody young is keeping tradition with the music:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwqPmHi9A8g


Hello, Mike,

I'd be interested in checking out your "all-Italian radio show." Any links/info appreciated.

I love Italian music, Italian mandolin, but my primary interest is records (of ostensibly Italian music), made in the U.S. by Italians and their descendants on U.S. record labels.

Yours, William

----------

