# Music by Genre > Old-Time, Roots, Early Country, Cajun, Tex-Mex >  The Old-Time chop police

## SincereCorgi

I think I might have seen something about this before, but...

I played at an old-time jam last week, and it seemed to go pretty well. Large group, not ideal for musicality, but everybody seemed to have a good time. Anyway, word got back to me later that the hammer dulcimer player thought my chop chords when I played rhythm were 'inappropriate' for old-time music.

Anybody else had an experience like this? I don't recall the other mandolin players doing anything substantially different, and something feels a little crass about letting all my chords ring in a texture that's already pretty saturated with those kinds of sounds (banjos, fiddles, etc.).

Any opinions?

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## sgarrity

Sounds like the dulcimer player cares more about a pseudo-tradition than making good music. I tend to play open chords, some chop chords, doublestops, pick the melody. Maybe next time you can try mixing it up a bit and see how it goes.

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## JonZ

Maybe it was her subtle way of telling you your fly was open. :Redface:

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## sunburst

I won't offer an opinion because the fact that I'd much rather hear chop chords than a hammered dulcimer means that I can't be objective...  :Wink:

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## usqebach

Well, when I read a comment about a hammer dulcimer player questioning someone else's "authenticity" at an old-time jam, it makes me want to reprise a quote about a verbal exchange between a pot and a kettle concerning their respective hues.

That being said, one thing I really enjoy about old time jams is that I can beat out some serious chords, Ella Haley style (think boom-a-chick-a rhythm), without getting tossed out on my ear!  And I certainly wouldn't worry about adding volume to what is hopefully already a joyful caucophony.

However, what I usually do is when I don't know the chord structure to a tune, I'll chop lightly until I think I've got it sorted out (three chords, four keys, can't be too hard!) and then let 'er ring out, still giving it the boom-chick.  I also think most jams can use a little extra off-beat to help out the guitarist.

just my humble opinion, free and worth every penny.

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## Bob Buckingham

You listen to dulcimers players?  Unbelievable!

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## fred d

I'm learning that at most jams just to keep my mouth shut and not give a rats a** about these kinda people (wantabes) at a recent jam the leader and another got in to a discussion about Key's and scales go figure, others about weather or not to use a capo?? one other on weather temoral? should be used on the mandolin :Laughing:  :Mandosmiley:

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## Jim Nollman

I play chop chords all the time in a band with at least two others players who are not adverse to acting fussily purest. I only recall one statement, ever. A few summers ago, playing unamplified at a Farmer's Market over several weeks, I realized I needed to augment my usual melody playing with something different, just to be heard with a button accordion, a bass, and 2 fiddles. So I started chopping. 

At the time, I was also learning, on my own, lots of syncopated material —rags, reggae, shuffles, Bo Diddley, Latin tunes. Perhaps subconsciously I started adding these rhythms to the usual old time tunes. One person complained, more than once, that she didn't know what to do while I was playing a samba rhythm to  Calliope House. I told her to keep trying because the rest of us  liked the sound of it. She did keep trying.And today she absolutely wails over it on penny whistle.

And a few years on, I play odd rhythms  all the time, and use them much the same way that purists join a jig to a reel to push the music forward. I can create the same push by changing from one chop to another after every A/B pair. I especially love the effect of chopping to a reel using a New Orleans beat that accents the 2 and the 4. 

Then again, I also compose and produce a lot of ambient  techno music, so I'm no authority.

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## barney 59

I think that if you find yourself playing with a group of old time or purists of any type that it it makes sense to respect that. I sometimes sit in with a couple of different groups like that and it's their thing so I do their thing. If I can't do their thing then I sit back and listen.

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## Tom Mylet

Back in the 70's I was fortunate enough to play regularly in the Camp Creek Boys, a well known old time band from around Galax/Mt. Airy. 1. We almost never played without a someone chopping mandolin. 2. Just before Kyle Creed, the band leader asked me to join, he told a friend that he was considering me because I "seemed polite and kept good time."

I somehow have always thought a jam was akin to sharing and being open. In a jam situation, I really don't think anyone has any complaint regardless what the other person's playing iso long as they're polite and keep good time.

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## woodwizard

> I won't offer an opinion because the fact that I'd much rather hear chop chords than a hammered dulcimer means that I can't be objective...


I think I might be in the same boat as sunburst on the hammered D observation.... but I will say that I play regularly with a very traditional OT band and do a lot of chopping as well as mixing it up... but a lot of chopping!and haven't heard any complaints so for and going on 2 years with them.

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## ccravens

This is altering the subject a smidgen, but can someone answer me this - is it not really proper, or is it frowned upon to chop to Old-Tme music like we do it in Bluegrass? Or is it that it's just not done very often? If not, do most mandos just play the melody like all/most of the other instruments?

I'm not asking your opinion, or whether you believe it's right one way or the other, but in OT jams, how it is usually done?  What do the mandolin palyers usually do, and it is done out of OT tradition?

I know many could chime in with a "some do this, some do that" answer, but is there a general consensus in OT music about this? I've been in a few OT jams & chopped some without complaint; were the people just being polite?

I'm not saying I (or you) have to follow the tradition, but I'd just like to know what it is before I break with it.

I think that the originator of this thread was right-on (and wise) when he said "something feels a little crass about letting all my chords ring in a texture that's already pretty saturated with those kinds of sounds (banjos, fiddles, etc.)."

Some serious and experienced OT players, please give some input here! An inquiring mind wants to know.  :Smile:

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## Alan Taunton

I have been playing in an old time string band for two years.  We focus on mid 1800 and older music and a lot of my playing is based on melody.  However, some of the songs we play need some chop.  The rest of the group appreciates having the mandolin do that when it is needed.  I missed practice a few weeks ago and some of the guys commented on how they really missed not having the mando to help with the time.

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## Nelson Peddycoart

I think we have a different answer depending on which of two circumstances we are dealing with.

1.  If we are playing in a group which is trying to faithfully replicate OT, I suppose the mandolin rarely belongs in there at all.  In this case, I could see where a traditionalist would want something more like fiddle work out of the mandolin (staying around the melody, I mean).

2.  If we are just playing various kinds of music, I see no problem with the mandolin chopping.  I have been in this situation and asked myself the same question at the time I was playing.  When the chop felt out of place, I moved to open chords or a little melodic reinforcement.

Nelson

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## allenhopkins

The southern string-band music of the '20's and '30's, which current old-time musicians try to emulate, had few rules, a lot of variation in terms of instrumentation and style, and much spontaneous creativity.  You could find hammered dulcimers in bands like Henry Ford's Old-Time Dance Orchestra, which also featured a tuba.  You found banjo-ukuleles, Autoharps, harmonicas, pump organs, banjo-guitars, kazoos, and whatever the local band members owned and played.

I haven't heard a lot of the old bands featuring "chop" mandolin chording; mandolin players more often played open chords, sometimes with a "running" rhythm, or just played along with the melody without much chording.  But there shouldn't be restrictions on how any instrument plays, other than what seems to work with a particular ensemble, style, or tune.  If there are tunes that sound good with consistent closed chords on the off-beat, great!

There's an unfortunate tendency to clothe personal preferences and dislikes in the form of universal rules regarding what's suitable for a musical style.  "I don't like mandolin 'chopping'" becomes, "Mandolin 'chopping' doesn't belong in old-time music."  Understandable, but not admirable, and not to be taken as gospel.  Maybe others don't like hammered dulcimers in old-time music; that's an individual preference, not a rule.

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roanokejhp

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## Pete Hicks

I am a confirmed grasser with a love for old-time as well.  I find that the solid straight bluegrass chop doesn't work so well in many old time tunes.  I use it, but I tend to mix it up more.  Sometimes I try to emulate the sound of the clawhammer banjo.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vgcqCdThdk
Of course, I may be going a little overboard here

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## Sheryl McDonald

*Jim writes:*_ >>I was also learning, on my own, lots of syncopated material —rags, reggae, shuffles, Bo Diddley, Latin tunes. Perhaps subconsciously I started adding these rhythms to the usual old time tunes. One person complained, more than once, that she didn't know what to do while I was playing a samba rhythm to Calliope House. I told her to keep trying because the rest of us liked the sound of it.<<_

LOL!!  I'd love to hear what you are playing.  How about an mp3 or two??

I think it's awesome when someone isn't afraid to push the envelope (or the sound of the music, either).

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## Paul Kotapish

Allen summed it up pretty nicely--and there are some good older threads on the topic elsewhere in the forum--there is no straightforward formula or set of criteria for what comprises "old-time" music like there is for bluegrass (which some of us consider just a particularly well-codified form of old-time music anyway, but that is a different dog fight). 

In a nutshell, old-time music is a state of mind, not a collection of instruments or any singular way of playing those instruments.

The old-time moniker can be convincingly applied to every possible string-band combo: solo fiddle, fiddle & banjo duets, guitar & mandolin duets, fiddle-banjo-guitar trios, etc. Some old-time bands made room for autoharps, cellos, and even the dreaded dulcimer. And for every possible combo, there are a bunch of styles that might obtain for each instrument--flatpicking, fingerpicking, clawhammer, drop-thumb, three-finger, crosspicking, chopping, frailing, and flailing. 

If you are trying to emulate a particular old-time sound or ensemble, the specifics of your styling (chops or not, for example) become important and are more open to subjective criteria. In a more casual setting, it get down to personal preferences. In the case of whether to chop or not, I'd say that it should be a matter of consensus among your musical colleagues. Even in the loosest of jams it can be a good idea to take a few minutes to have a little chat about what seems to be working and what doesn't. Might simply be a matter of rearranging the chairs or it might take a little rethinking about what you play when. 

The main thing is to have fun, make a noise you all like, and keep your ears and your mind open.

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## woodwizard

> I haven't heard a lot of the old bands featuring "chop" mandolin chording; mandolin players more often played open chords, sometimes with a "running" rhythm, or just played along with the melody without much chording.  But there shouldn't be restrictions on how any instrument plays, other than what seems to work with a particular ensemble, style, or tune.  If there are tunes that sound good with consistent closed chords on the off-beat, great!
> 
> There's an unfortunate tendency to clothe personal preferences and dislikes in the form of universal rules regarding what's suitable for a musical style.  "I don't like mandolin 'chopping'" becomes, "Mandolin 'chopping' doesn't belong in old-time music."  Understandable, but not admirable, and not to be taken as gospel.  Maybe others don't like hammered dulcimers in old-time music; that's an individual preference, not a rule.


I think you nailed it here or at least that's sorta the way I see it too. There were actually plenty of mandolins playing OT way back then but just not with the (what I call the Monroe chop). More of the open ringing type of chords. The great fiddler Ed Haley's wife always played mandolin with him on most of his rare recordings. I find that the mandolin can really enhance the beat in OT and not take anything away from it as far as making it un-traditional. The chop along with many other mandolin tricks can can work very well and here in Arkansas at OT jams and shows it is not frowned upon. There are situations when the chop would better be replaced with open ringing chords and other embellishments of course. Even when I'm playing a chop in OT it's not really a chop like I normally played in a bluegrass band. The way I see it ... what ever sounds good usually is. And let's face it folks old-time is mostly fiddle & clawhammer.

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## swampstomper

A key point here is that it is impossible for us in modern times to "go back" in time, because we've been exposed to so much music that's been made since the originals. I strongly doubt that Charlie Poole or the Skillet Lickers would play the same way today as they did originally, if they could somehow be transported to modern times. There's nothing incongruous about Sammy Shelor listening mostly to southern rock and metal (as he himself says) but being able to play in a Galax jam. The "purists" can't make us unlearn what we've heard and absorbed. Now, if there's a particular sound one likes from the old days, let's go for it, e.g. Highwoods String Band emulating Skillet Lickers, but then that led to Richie Stearns and the Horseflies (who sat at the feet of Highwoods and then went to every southern old-time festival) inventing reggae banjo and the hypnotic trance old-time groove. Which to me is great.

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## Rob Gerety

Was the hammered dulcimer the only one that didn't like it?  Probably would have been better to talk to you directly and have a conversation.

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## SincereCorgi

Thanks for the replies, all.




> Was the hammered dulcimer the only one that didn't like it?  Probably would have been better to talk to you directly and have a conversation.


Yeah, he was the only one, or maybe everybody else is too polite to say anything. I was talking to one of his students, who commented about a long conversation they'd had about how the guy 'enjoys playing old-time music with people who understand what old-time music is supposed to be about', and part of that was that the mandolin chops from the night before had been inappropriate.

I think he might just be a bit of a crank. This wasn't a real purist session I should add- there was a little pennywhistle and some accordion among the usual suspects. Tunes ranged from Sarah Armstrong to Salt Creek to Nail That Catfish To A Tree, the lattermost from that difficult time in our country's history, just after the War Between the States: the 1970s.

The funny thing is, I would _love_ to play in a group was was nerdily precise about imitating some particular stringband group or style. The 'I'll bring a tambourine to the bluegrass jam' spirit isn't my bag at all. Could you recommend any good compilations featuring those kinds of stringbands you mentioned, Alan? I've got the Harry Smith box but you seem to know your onions on this stuff.

Trevor

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## allenhopkins

> Could you recommend any good compilations featuring those kinds of stringbands you mentioned, Alan? I've got the Harry Smith box but you seem to know your onions on this stuff.


Jeez, there's a ton of them.  I got most of my "knowledge of onions" off LP's, like the RCA Victor Vintage series, back in the immediate postwar 1970's.  You could check out *this link* to the old-time reissues offered by County Sales.  The classic iconic bands include Charlie Poole & the North Carolina Ramblers, the Skillet Lickers, the Bogtrotters, Carolina Tarheels, Georgia Wildcats, Da Costa Woltz's Southern Broadcasters, etc., but there are dozens more.  More contemporary musicians include the Round Peak NC group of musicians, especially Tommy Jarrell, Kyle Creed, Fred Cockerham; they recorded quite extensively in the 1970's and '80's before Jarrell's death in 1985.

Obvious people to listen to in the "revival" category are the New Lost City Ramblers, who re-created a variety of the old musical styles, from Carter Family to near-bluegrass.  Another group I often recommend for a more eclectic selection of different old-time styles is the Double Decker String Band (whose wonderful fiddler, Craig Johnson, died last year).  They played a really interesting variety of old-time "novelty" numbers, gospel, fiddle tunes, even some country blues.

It's a lot of fun to get some of the regional compilations as well.  I have a three-LP set called _Echoes of the Ozarks_ that features Arkansas and Missouri recordings from the '20's and '30's, including the absolutely priceless Carter Brothers & Son.  There was a similar set of Kentucky fiddle bands.  Just start listening and you'll undoubtedly find a style or styles that speak to you.  And some of the compilation reissues include those "odd" bands who transcended the standard fiddle/banjo/guitar lineup, and added different instruments (mandolin, _e.g._) and idiosyncratic sounds.

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## AlanN

One reason why I don't do old-time jams.

Not all HD players adhere to that rigidity. Walt Michael was/is a good HD player with wide open ears, and I seem to recall him hanging with Dawg and them back in the day.

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## billkilpatrick

ask the hammer dulcimer where one might find a comprehensive cross section of recordings from the 1800's.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Anyway, word got back to me later that the hammer dulcimer player thought my chop chords when I played rhythm were 'inappropriate' for old-time music.


I would go back and check out the source of the complaint -- maybe it was really a *hammered* dulcimer player rather than a hammer dulcimer player.  That could explain it.   :Smile:

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## John McGann

Situations like these are exactly why fake vomit was invented.

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## Rob Gerety

By the way, was the "hammered" dulcimer in tune?  I've never met one that was actually in tune for more than 5 minutes.

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## jim_n_virginia

You don't chop at an Old Time Jam ... lots of other things a mando can do at an OTJ. You can pick the melody, strum the chords even practice your cross picking but generally chopping loudly at an Old Time Jam is considered rude. 

And yes you can show up with an attitude of "nobody tells me how to play" but there are plenty of wide open jams where anything goes where a mando player can chop as loud as they want or play jazz chords or play against or emphasize the back beat.... you get the picture.

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## allenhopkins

> You don't chop at an Old Time Jam...generally chopping loudly at an Old Time Jam is considered rude...you can show up with an attitude of "nobody tells me how to play"...you get the picture.


Respectfully disagree.  This is one of those "rules" things that tend to irritate me from time to time.  Definitely one should be tasteful, listen to the music and the other musicians, avoid being obstreperous, obnoxious, insensitive, inappropriate.  And yes, showing up with a shoulder chip, saying, "I play the way I want, and if others don't like it, tough noogies!" is a definite Bad Thing.  But "never chop at an old-time jam" is sorta like "never bring a mandola to a bluegrass jam" or "never play harmonies at a Celtic jam" or "never eat pumpernickel with strawberry jam" (oh, wait, that's a different rule).  If the jamsters have strict rules about how each instrument should be played, and what kinds of techniques are acceptable and what aren't, they should have them printed out and give each attendee a copy at the door.  And they can keep my copy, 'cause I won't be needing it.

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## woodwizard

Once again ... you nailed it Allen. A tasteful chop can make OT even better.

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## mingusb1

Coming quite late to the thread but figured to add a little:

I'd suggest the "to chop, or not to chop" issue in oldtime is much/mostly to do with how the tunes/lead fiddler/jam/band wants to emphasize beats.  I've played bluegrass and oldtime bass for years and although a bluegrass and oldtime tune can be in the same key, with the same chord changes, at the same tempo (hell it can even be the same tune!) there are pretty distinct rhythmic feels.  

To me oldtime tends to have a lot more of a "bounce".  And this bounce seems particularly strong when you are playing a dance (square, contra).  Basically the backbeat just isn't emphasized as heavily as you would with a mando chop in classic bluegrass.  You might could play those same chop chord shapes (voices) but with some sustain and a bit softer and the police wouldn't notice.

So I'd say don't necessarily forsake the chop chord shapes but work on your right hand SHUFFLE.  Think of fiddle bowing.

Have fun!
Z

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## fatt-dad

we were all sitting around talking about chili and this fellow spoke up and he had an Asian accent.  They don't eat chili in Asia!

Come on!  Chop away, it's fellowship.  The dulcimer is an idiot.  Local old-time dude here in Richmond has no problems with me chopping or noting the melody.  Nobody likes a big mouth though. . .

f-d

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## Cheryl Watson

Yes, it depends on HOW you chop because there are many different styles of chopping, but a steady CHOP CHOP CHOP at ear-popping volume would not fit the genre at all.

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## Bob Buckingham

I played on two old time CD sessions where the fiddler wanted a chop on the mandolin.  There is that urban, dream time old time and then the real old time that knows its brother is bluegrass, not the new kind but that old kind.

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## Jim Nollman

And...let's all acknowledge the difference between a rehearsal and a jam. If your fiddle player asks you to consider dropping the chop in response to a different arrangement he hears in his head, then you owe it to the band to try it out. As does he owe it to the band, when you suggest to try some double stop combo instead of always playing straight melody.

But if one jammer tells another jammer to stop chopping because it offends some purist traditionalism, you should either ignore it, or pack up and leave. I've been there, experienced that, especially with the Irish music mafia, where everything not played parallel is regarded as an affront to their aesthetically dead-on-arrival sensibilities.

I am of the opposite persuasion. If someone can actually make a chop work for something odd, a strathspey or a lament or a slow ballad, then I for one, want to be playing on that tune just to get a good idea of  how he/she is stretching the bounds to explore a new expression.

To answer the other question posed earlier in this thread, about giving a listen to some of my odd-metered chops, I can only say that two weeks ago I set up two mics in my studio at mandolin-playing height to start on that project. But I have completed only one solo session so far. If you're interested, the first three tunes on my plate are Green Willis, Earl Haig, and Wild Rose of the Mountain. I also plan to add some digital resampled beats, and hopefully a tuba if i can find a good enough player locally. Plus fiddle, bass, flute, some piano. No guitar on this one unless it's a strat or tele playing chord melody. Think of Weather Report playing Haste to the Wedding. Sure, the whole thing may end up being a mess. But I have to follow through with a sound building in my head that seems as though it could potentially be interesting. To hear some of my past mandolin work in equally odd electrified and electronic arrangements, go here.

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## D C Blood

If it's a JAM, then no one should gripe about what a visitor does...Remember, though, if the shoe's on the other foot, (i.e. an OT picker at a bluegrass jam) not to give the "fish-eye" to someone who is playing like it is OT...

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## mandroid

Hammer dulcimer has to make  a  good sized technical leap to play chords .. with just 2 hammers,
 one in each hand.
Vibraphone players have developed the 4 mallet techniques,  so they get to do nice Comp chords .. 
but it is a very pianistic layout .

wonder ..  if there's secret  coveting the chord playing ability ..  of a 4 fingered mandolin player ?

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## Rob Gerety

Jim, that project of yours sounds terrific.  I have been working some with a fellow here in Vermont who has made a career out of pushing the boundaries of traditional melodies in a variety of very successful contra dance bands, (The Clayfoot Strutters and Nightingale).  We occasionally work up a traditional melody - most recently Mulqueen - and back it up with a motown rhythm section.  We've worked up some Reggae rhythm stuff as well.  Great fun. The dancers love the stuff. Its over my head a bit - but something to strive for.

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## Jim Nollman

Rob, I have been hearing for years about a talented contra dance band in your neck of the woods, named Wild Asparagus, that has a sax as a primary melody instrument. I do hope to hear them some day.

As far as your current direction of experimenting with Motown hooks... Sounds interesting, at least in repetitive tunes. make me think it would be worth trying in something like Kitchen Girl or Sandy Boys or Cluck Old Hen. The former already presents that Motown dance edge, and the latter two have melodies that are nothing much more than an inspired hook. Cluck old Hen sounds like it could have been written by Howling Wolf. I wish i could drive by some night and give a listen to what you are doing. It would take me 5 days each way. 

If you really think about it, the bluegrass chop, and the reggae scratch can be identical, both emphasizing the three. I played reggae in a band years ago, so when i got hooked on traditional tunes, i immediately noticed that similarity. One thing I sometimes try to do in my own so-called chop, is to leave one of them silent within the measure. That adds the same push you get in reggae. Dancers do respond well to it, since they get to fill in the hole with their imagination and their feet. By the way, the B part to Haste to the Wedding, has this same kind of hole built right into the melody. It's where the dancer's are asked to clap to fill it in.  

All music shares these same similarities. For example, we play a traditional tune called Huntsman's Chrous, which was stolen by Mozart for one of his operas. In a contra band, we play it full speed. But at weddings, we play it with the lilt of a Mozart Minuet. So which way is correct? Can you imagine there are people who would disallow this sharing of musical processes across genres. And when you really think about it, imagine a hundred years ago, when some player in some band acted creatively to evolve some traditional tune, maybe got shot down by a purist in his audience. But his idea was strong enough to be used again, and then again by another band. Today that added figure is part of the tradition.  And a new generation insists we should keep it sacrosanct.

I'm emphatically NOT against doing songs in the traditional manner. I just like to do them all sorts of different ways, depending on the situation. But I'm not sure what I do can even be called a "chop". I play an oval hole, and the damping technique can be inherently difficult to do well, depending on the strings hit. I'd call what i do a woof, since my BRW has such a lively low end.

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## allenhopkins

> Hammer dulcimer has to make  a  good sized technical leap to play chords .. with just 2 hammers,
>  one in each hand.


There are four-hammer dulcimer players; local composer/player Glenn McClure is one.

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## Rob Gerety

Jim, go here http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=129295.  Give a listen to Honey Bee and Sri Bubba.  Two sample tunes available for a free listen.  Those are just two examples of the kind of thing that Jeremiah does all the time.  Understand he is my teacher - not my band mate by a long shot.  He is an outstanding professional musician way way beyond anything I will ever be.  I would pay just to be in the room with him and listen to him talk about putting together an arrangement.  Which is exactly what I do.  He puts amateurs together on Sunday's at his home and teaches us how to put music together and how to put a dance together.  Very very creative guy.  

Wild Asparagus is an excellent band.  They play a regular monthly dance at my home dance in Greenfield, Mass.  Very popular - they will fill the place every time.  But perhaps even more innovative in the area of contra band fusion and groove based dance music are bands like Crowfoot, The Clayfoot Strutters, Rumblestrip, Nightingale.  We are very lucky here.  There is a ton of innovative contra dance music in this area. I am not in that league.  I feel I've accomplished something to get through a dance in a very traditional manner.  But I do love to dance to this modern stuff and I do so regularly.

I almost forgot a couple of other truly outstanding modern contra dance bands - Big Bandemonium and Will Patton's daughter's band - "Elixir" - Anna Patton plays clarinet in that band. .

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## mandolirius

> Yes, it depends on HOW you chop because there are many different styles of chopping, but a steady CHOP CHOP CHOP at ear-popping volume would not fit the genre at all.


I think this is the key point. There are many different ways to chop.

 I hear a lot of chopping in bluegrass jams that is pretty monotonous. You can get by with that, but a good rhythm player (and there are so many great examples) does so much more than that. Someone with a good sense of rhythm could make a chop work in bluegrass. Then again, if they had that kind of rhythmic ability, they'd probably be able to do a lot of other things as well. 

I rarely chop in oldtime sessions because I think other things sound better. But if I thought things were drifting, I might chop a bit just to emphasize where the beat is. Lucky for me the oldtime sessions I go to don't have that problem. A good clawhammer player pretty much keeps things in line, rhythmically and there are a few of those around here.

Also, as with bluegrass, oldtime is starting to fuse with other musical styles. When I hear about motown rhythm sections and what not, it seems like the oldtime police are going to have a lot bigger things than a mandolin chop to worry about. One of my favourite fusions is trad. Bulgarian music, played with a rhythm section that sounds like it came right out of a funk band.

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## Rob Gerety

There will always be a place for traditional old time music.  Lovely stuff.  There will also always be a place for fusion and innovation.  Its a big world out there.  I think you just need to get along with the people you are playing with, make the best of the situation and enjoy all of it.

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## Jim Nollman

Rob, thanks for the tip to Honey Bee. Nice stuff. 

This thread finally got me off my butt yesterday, and into the recording studio for a two hour session. I've now officially started working on the deconstruction of some traditional tunes: the first one is variations on the theme of Wild Rose of the Mountain. Some chop will be heard at some point, although most of it will be sampled and stretched fore (with backwards reverb) and aft (with pingpong delays). I've posted a lookout for the chop police.

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## JeffD

Hang on. Certainly one can do what ever one wants. And certainly there may be exceptions. But in general, when a jam is advertised as old time, they don't want the percussive barking chop on the upbeat. Its not a rule or a law, but its the custom pretty much. There are other differences too, depending on how orthodox the old time jam is, but chopping is at best "tolerated" at most OT jams, whether someone says something or not.  


That being said, there is a lot the mandolin can do, to not only fit in, but to enhance the proceedings.

Play the melody.

Tremolo some double stop harmonies

Play backup chords, (you can even emphasize the backbeat).

Did I mention play the melody?

What I usually do is play the melody.

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## JeffD

> I rarely chop in oldtime sessions because I think other things sound better. .


You nailed it. That by itself is reason enough.

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## JeffD

> Come on!  Chop away, it's fellowship.


Not true. Sure its fellowhip and sharing, but focused a certain way. Of course there are exceptions, of course there are times nobody says anything. But that doesn't mean its appropriate. 

If you substituted "play the saxephone" and instead of old time we were discussing bluegrass, it would be the same thing. There is nothing inherently wrong with saxophone in a bluegrass jam, its just not appropriate. If someone started playing "Inagotadavita" at a traditional irish jam.

Fellowship and sharing, of course absolutely, but that does not mean the folks are of a mind for fusing together disparit musical traditions.

For that you go to the "fusing disparit musical traditions" jam.  :Grin:

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## JeffD

> So I'd say don't necessarily forsake the chop chord shapes but work on your right hand SHUFFLE.  Think of fiddle bowing.


When that is done effectively it sounds fantastic.

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## Jim Nollman

Mostly agree with you Jeff. It's all about musicianship. In a jam, the other jammers become your audience as much as anything else. It doesn't hurt to be good to your audience. However, if you have the chops, and feel confident within your own musical credo, don't stress over pushing preconceptions. To be honest, i started fiddling around with chops, because i sensed that the usual bluegrass chop that works so well in its standard context, can just as easily diminish the potential of a different context.

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## SincereCorgi

> That being said, there is a lot the mandolin can do, to not only fit in, but to enhance the proceedings.
> 
> Play the melody.
> 
> Tremolo some double stop harmonies
> 
> Play backup chords, (you can even emphasize the backbeat).
> 
> Did I mention play the melody?
> ...


Well, lest people think I'm some crazy machine that only has a CHOP/OFF setting, I didn't do the 'bluegrass chop' every time I played rhythm. A lot of what I played when I played rhythm was sort of shuffle-chop stuff (like, uh, a washboard, I guess?). Maybe I'm not wired right for old-time, but the idea of playing the melody over and over a dozen times without switching to rhythm or otherwise changing the texture sounds like pretty dull music-making to my way of thinking.

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## JeffD

> but the idea of playing the melody over and over a dozen times without switching to rhythm or otherwise changing the texture sounds like pretty dull music-making to my way of thinking.


In a way I understand what you are saying, but in reality, there is a lot of magic there. The tune is whole thing. You ride the tune like a little road trip. You get all up inside the tune and try to find its essential tuniness, and do everything to bring out that tune, express the tune's message more thoroughly, or more effectively, more precisely.

Its not about me its about the tune. Nobody cares how well I can improvise. Nobody cares how well I can play actually. The tune is beautiful as it is, who am I to think I can improve it with spontaneous re-composition. What they care about is how well I can make the tune sound. How does the tune sound in my hands. What has my years of playing done to me that I can apply to this tune here, and help it on its way, so that someone hearing it will pick will get infected with it and become a new host organism and pick it up.

One of the instructors at Swannanoa quoted Quincy Jones saying: "Rythm is as old as time. It goes back to a heartbeat, and its the first music ever made. Harmony is simple math. But melody, is a gift from God."

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## sgarrity

Listen to Mike Compton play behind John Hartford on all of his old-time fiddle tune recordings for a master class in playing mandolin rhythm in old time music.

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## fatt-dad

> Not true. Sure its fellowhip and sharing, but focused a certain way. Of course there are exceptions, of course there are times nobody says anything. But that doesn't mean its appropriate. 
> 
> If you substituted "play the saxephone" and instead of old time we were discussing bluegrass, it would be the same thing. There is nothing inherently wrong with saxophone in a bluegrass jam, its just not appropriate. If someone started playing "Inagotadavita" at a traditional irish jam.
> 
> Fellowship and sharing, of course absolutely, but that does not mean the folks are of a mind for fusing together disparit musical traditions.
> 
> For that you go to the "fusing disparit musical traditions" jam.


Hey, I don't want to sound defensive, but I also said, "Nobody likes a big mouth."  Within the context of old-time music you could never say, the "chop" is taboo, like a sax on bluegrass.  Last night I had to chop 'cause the guitar player lost the rhythm and the tune was falling apart.  The chop helped for one lap and then I went back to noting.  The subject of the OP was is there a place for chop chords in old-time music and I say, "sure!"  Fellowship requires a sensibility to what is going on around you.

You do realize that there are folks that say there is no place for a mandolin AT ALL in old-time music.

f-d

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## JeffD

> Fellowship requires a sensibility to what is going on around you.


Oh I agree, and every situation, at the time, is unique. It is never ok to just do what you want irrespective of its impact on those around.




> You do realize that there are folks that say there is no place for a mandolin AT ALL in old-time music.
> 
> f-d


Absolutely. One of the first things I heard at the workshop was that the banjo and the fiddle are old time music. The banjo provides everything the fiddle needs and the fiddle completes the banjo - the two of them together are the perfect little OT machine. And the question asked of the mandolin player - when you go up to that jam, what do you think you are to add?

Of course then we learned what we mandolinists are capable of adding.

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## woodwizard

"Of course then we learned what we mandolinists are capable of adding".

I will say again ...  if it sounds good it probably is.

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## Rob Gerety

> the idea of playing the melody over and over a dozen times without switching to rhythm or otherwise changing the texture sounds like pretty dull music-making to my way of thinking.


You probably won't like Irish session playing.

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## Perry

Playing the melody all the time.....

I really like this approach even on bluegrass style fiddle tunes...it's more interesting then passing around the torch though that can be fine too.

As mentioned above you can really get inside the tune...and change the texture...also let's face it even good players are not always going to hit the same notes all the time but if you keep consistent rhythmic timing and play notes from the right scale you can stumble upon nice little harmonies and counter melodies. Since the melody is always covered by someone you can slip in and out chordal back-up; partial chords double stops etc.  Of course it helps to have a guitar player playing some chords and everybody needs to pair the melody down to it's primal pulse at least as a base point...no frilly stuff!
It's more of a group effort this way..strength in numbers.

Who cares what the old-time police say!

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## allenhopkins

_Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law_  -- Aleister Crowley.

Old-time music, when it was old-time, was wildly varied, completely idiosyncratic, narrowly regional, and uniquely personal.  As I said in an earlier post, the different bands played whatever came into their minds, with whatever instruments they happened to play.  Hawaiian guitar, tenor banjo, Autoharp, cello, tuba, kazoo, harmonica, ukulele, uke-banjo, hammered dulcimer, piano, pump organ, and of course mandolin, were featured by different groups whose music has been recorded and whose legacy is the "old-timey" music we play today.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the current orthodoxy that limits the roles of different instruments to a narrow range, and excludes other instruments and other techniques as not "old-timey."  Listen to the Three Stripped Gears, the Red Fox Chasers, Carter Brothers & Son, Prince Albert Hunt's Texas Serenaders, Charlie Poole's Highlanders, Shortbuckle Roarke Family, the Allen Brothers, McGee Brothers & Arthur Smith, and a host of other individualistic and creative groups that don't sound like the "standard" revival old-time band today.  And even among revivalists, check out Double Decker String Band or the Red Clay Ramblers for unorthodox and creative arrangement, instrumentation, and repertoire.

Probably there's an instinctive human preference for rule-making, and we wish we could guarantee universal "good taste" by legislating against behaviors we find "tasteless."  But I don't accept that any person(s), no matter how learned, skilled or experienced, can define "old-time music" and separate the melody-playing sheep from the chord-chopping goats.  It's like defining "jazz" or "rock" or "classical" -- setting the rules, drawing the boundaries, and excluding the nonconformists.

Doesn't mean that I want Archie Shepp playing "free jazz" in my Dixieland combo, or Eddie Van Halen taking the guitar solos in my bluegrass band.  I just went to concert by an interesting NYCity band called Red Rooster, and they made some very pleasant country-folk original music with guitar, 5-string banjo, accordion and tenor saxophone.  They knew how to blend disparate sounds and make things work together.

Drawing this long-winded rant to a close, I think that universalizing individual preferences into restrictive rule frameworks is suspect at best, and crucially limiting and creativity-killing at worst.  You're free to say what you like and don't like, but that only defines _your_ worldview, not boundaries to which everyone must conform.

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## JeffD

I take your point Allen, but would you not agree that those with a creative bent, that want to put things together in new ways, try things out and see what new things work, etc., they should first educate themselves through listening to and playing the more orthodox and less recently diluted forms, so that they know from which bottles they take their spices when they make their new concoction?

I am trying to draw a distinction between mixing and matching and pushing boundries and boarders out of a creative curiosity and need to create, versus the intellectual lazy who don't want to bother about boundries because it takes work to know where they are. (Bringing a saxophone to traditional Irish venue because you have found a cool way of using sax to bring out something in the jigs and reels and pipe and whistle music that uniquely works with the saxophone, (Hamish Moore and Dick Lee come to mind) or bringing a saxophone because, well, that's what you know how to play.)

Chopping because you have a feeling how it can contribute to the music, anchor the beat, and enhance the overall sound, versus chopping because that's, umm, what you do.

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## allenhopkins

Don't disagree with your perspective, JeffD, that a person would be well-advised to get some familiarity with a particular musical genre before attempting to "extend its boundaries."  Also concur that the pig-headed "I play this way because that's the way I play -- like it or lump it!" approach is destructive to good relations at jam events, and to good music in general.

But I hear too much of "there's a right way and a wrong way to play old-time/bluegrass/Celtic/blues," with the usual corollary that "the way I/we play it is, of course, the *right* way."  And I find this particularly invidious in regard to old-timey music, which was in its early recorded heyday a sprawling, diverse, heterogenous, individualistic style (or style_s_) that encompassed a wide variety of instruments, repertoire, techniques, and attitudes.  To say that old-timey music is nothing but fiddle-based dance tunes with a frailed/clawhammer banjo, an open-chorded flat-picked guitar, and a mandolin that plays along with the melody -- and that everything else is heresy -- seems unnecessarily dogmatic to me.

And remember, we're talking about a *jam* here, not a band practice or a teaching workshop.  In the better jams in which I've participated, lots of individuality was welcome, as long as the participants showed some respect for their fellow musicians, didn't try to dominate, had ears as well as fingers, and gave everyone a chance to contribute.  Sure, there were things I liked more than others -- and sometimes things I really disliked -- but I wouldn't have said, "By definition, your music (and you) aren't welcome to participate."

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## fatt-dad

(Warning:  No mandolin content)

I'm on a minister of music committee at my church (St. Paul's Richmond, Virginia).  We have a long history (Robert E. Lee was a congregant).  We also have an organ that was installed about 10 or 15 years ago.  It's deluxe!

Tonight, we had a candidate play the organ and lead the choir (an interview of sorts).  We were talking afterwards and we talked abou the subject of playing Bach on a "modern" organ.  His perspective is that it's good to know the limitations of the instrument that Bach had for composing, but if Bach was alive to day, he's use all the horsepower of our more complicated "modern" organ.

In other-words, he never throttle back the potential of a contemporary organ just to be historically authentic. That said, you have to  understand the historical context to know how to be true to the music.

In light of this thread, I found the organist's comments interesting. . .

f-d

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## JeffD

> Tonight, we had a candidate play the organ and lead the choir (an interview of sorts).  We were talking afterwards and we talked abou the subject of playing Bach on a "modern" organ.  His perspective is that it's good to know the limitations of the instrument that Bach had for composing, but if Bach was alive to day, he's use all the horsepower of our more complicated "modern" organ.
> 
> In other-words, he never throttle back the potential of a contemporary organ just to be historically authentic. That said, you have to  understand the historical context to know how to be true to the music.
> 
> In light of this thread, I found the organist's comments interesting. . .



Indeed, it is a classic battle. Do you play what the composer wrote, what the composer intended, what the composer would have intended if modern instruments were available? I know certain composers were more forward thinking, always trying to transcend the tools available, so it really is a legit approach.

And the classic battle about interpretation and re-interpretation of traditions - there is lots of music that came out of a time we cannot even imagine living in now. I always try and find the hints about what life might have been like then in the music itself, but even unconsciously I surely impact the future of the music in my playing of it. I am sure I play it a lot more self-consciously than it might have been played years ago, when musicians were more isolated from each other.

On the line between being a strict traditionalist, and a post-ipod modernist there are many points - each of us will be comfortable somewhere along that line.

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## chasgrav

I think it's always fair to say "chopping" mandolin chords isn't appropriate when you're trying to recreate a specific sound, (say, that of some particular band that came before).  To say it's not consistent with "the old-time tradition" is ludicrous.  

What is lost on many people is how innovative and unfettered many "old-time" players were.  I'll hold up the Galax-area crowd, including the Camp Creek Boys, as examples.  Even Tommy Jarrell's father was often shocked by the changes he brought to the music.  

Duke Ellington said, "If it sounds good, it is good".

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## AlanN

Oh yes. Even the chop-meister John Duffey eschewed its constant use, to the point of calling it "disgusting" one time.

Gotta love that man (and his trousers).

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## mikeyes

The Chop isn't even universal in bluegrass.  WSM varied what he did all the time as do all good BG mandolinists.  In fact I've read the the reason WSM started using the chop a lot was to keep his band in tempo.

I play a lot of OT and in our band what ever seems to work, works - including the chop.

I agree with Allen, unless you are playing with a group of musicians that only plays a single narrowly defined regional style, the "rules" are more directed at good music than adhering to an interpretation of  holy scrip.

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## AlanN

> The Chop isn't even universal in bluegrass.


Very true. Just yesterday, was listening to Country Gentlemen 25 Years and on came Aunt Dinah's Quilting Party, a tune very much in the boom-chuck realm. John Duffey, Mr. Chop Man hisself, chose not do the metronomic chop on this, rather play rich double-stops behind. Sounded good to me.

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## Caleb

Great thread!  I’m pretty new to the genre, but I’m doing lots of listening to old music, which I figure is the best place to start.  It has been my experience that the best training for the hands is often first the training of the ears.  

Regarding chopping at an old-time jam, I say just ask if it’s appropriate within that particular context.  From what I’ve seen, most people who play acoustic music are generally pretty kind and laid back folks.  I was in this very situation over the weekend at an old-time music festival.  I ended up playing with two other mandolin players, and within a matter of seconds I realized I was completely out of my league, technically, with these guys.  But they let me take a lead on the fiddle tunes where I felt comfortable; and where I didn’t, I just played open chords, trying to make it sound like they did (I learned more about rhythm playing in 30 minutes with those guys than I have in four years on my own!).  I asked if chop chords would be appropriate, and was kindly and gently informed that “that’s mostly for bluegrass.”  I don’t think those guys would have tossed me out on my ear if I did some, but the point is that I was trying to take the “When in Rome” approach and fit in.  I might get a different answer at the next jam, and that’ll be okay too.  

It seems to me that context is everything here.  Just like it’s hard to judge an entire culture based on a conversation you had with one person from that culture, it’s very hard to determine what’s acceptable in old-time (or whatever tradition) based on what some person said or did at a particular jam.  People are individuals with individual taste, so it’s going to vary from place to place.  I say just be humble first and foremost, and you’ll figure out where you fit in pretty quickly.

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## danny_ga

I agree with Caleb's perspective. Each style of music has it's own 'things' that make it that style. If a group of people are playing that kind of music, they probably like the 'things' that make that music what it is. If we try to infuse things from our own, but different, styles, we should expect some resistance.

I get the privilege of playing all kinds of music with all kinds of people - from old time to Contempoary Christian to Rock. I love aspects of all the different styles. Out of respect to the music and the jam, I try to stay true to the song. Sure, I'll slip in a blues note on what should be an old-time song - or put a G-run in a Contemporary Christian song from time to time, but I try to use it as a touch of cayenne pepper thrown into the sauce, not trying to turn the sauce into chili.

The dulcimer player in the OP obviously likes traditional old-time music or he wouldn't be playing the dulcimer. He has probably spent a fair amount of time listening to and trying to replicate a certain sound. That sound doesn't include a Bill Monroe chop. Hearing one in the middle of what may be his favorite song would probably be a bit frustrating.

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## mikeyes

It is very hard, especially in a musically diverse area such as North America, not to be influenced by the music around us.  The old time bands that Allen mentions certainly were influenced by popular music and if you look at Irish music in the 40s and 50s in this country you will be presented with dance music using the standard dance band compliment such as drums and sax.  

Bluegrass is a great reminder of this.  Bill Monroe readily admits that blues influenced his music - I call it the "German influence" since his main mentor was an African-American blues man named Arnold Schultz - and if you look at the McGee brothers (who played with Uncle Dave) they searched out blues players where ever they traveled.  

Early country music such as Jimmy Rogers was blues influenced (or straight blues) and Texas Swing, while not OT per se, certainly grew out of country dance music which can argueably be said to be a strong part of OT.

OT music, in all of its diverse forms, didn't just die out.  I remember listening to the Fruit Jar Drinkers on the Opry when I was a kid.  It just evolved into a bunch of other things as other music influenced it or tastes changed.  Remember the vast number of records we have are from professional musicians who made more money playing gigs than they would have farming or mining.  They were in it to make a living as much as anything else and they followed the needs of the audiences.   Even the most famous blues men did something like this at times by playing dance music in  Mississippi dance halls.  As far as I can tell, none of them were trying to start a religion even though they had strong ideas about how the music should be played.

My point is that if you are a preservationist, so be it.  You can play the music note for note and setting up guidelines is appropriate.  If you enjoy the style but are not living in total isolation, then you can experiment with what makes you feel good.  If your friends agree, form a band.

Sam McGee once told me that he was a "bluesman".  My brother-in-law was his banker in Franklin, TN and I was lucky enough to jam with him a few times.  This was a surprise to me since I always thought he was Uncle Dave's sidekick and would be a staunch OT musician.  It turns out that Uncle Dave was much more of a generalist and a vaudeville/medicine show artist capable of playing any style of music that the audience wanted to hear.  That whole end of the OT styles had a lot to offer (Charley Poole, for example.)  I suspect that any "impurity" that the OT police may find can be documented without a very much searching in 20s to 40s OT recordings.

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## JeffD

I have come to believe it is less about impurity or purity or preservationist efforts, and more about common respect.

Sure, Duke Ellington said, "If it sounds good, it is good". But he was talking to and about folks who knew what sounded good and what could sound good. Duke Ellington did not say,"Do what ever you want, and then tell me it sounds good to you, so it must be tolerated."

What ever kind of jam you visit, you listen carefully, and see what is going on, how are things done, what the sound is, and then figure out what can you do that goes along, or even contributes to the sound. What ever it is do it softly at first, and if you get some acknowldegement then perhaps a little louder, and if its working they will let you know and then you can crank it.

That is very different from going in and doing what you are used to without knowing if it fits or not, and then blaming the "their jam here" police for not accepting the "your jam here" playing style.

This is true of every kind of jam, not just OT, or BG, or IT, jazz, blues, country, folk, Italian folk, traditional scandi, klezmer, whatever.

You don't walk into a discussion about who makes the best barbeque, and start talking politics. Its not because barbeque discussions are composed of small minded unimaginitive people, or because they want to preserve the purity of their discussion.

Common respect for the jam you are visiting, and common respect for the newcomer to your regular home jam. We all want to belong, we all want to lead, and we all will screw it up at times.

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## mandobsessed

As someone who plays both clawhammer banjo and bluegrass mandolin I think some of the chop problems arise from the differences between bluegrass and old time rhythm.  A standard bluegrass chop doesn't quite fit over a clawhammer rhythm whether bum ditty or bump a ditty.  Generally if you pull back on the volume a bit and let the chop ring a bit more you should be fine but again YMMV.

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