# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  optimal installation method for mandolin tuners?

## Bob Laughlin

I'm new to the forum, forgive me if this has been covered before.
I have 2 questions about 4-on-a-plate mandolin tuners (A-style in my case).

1. Installation. I drill 1/4" tuner holes using an accurate jig then use a pilot reamer from stewmac to create the bushing holes to just the depth required for the bushings. 

Another BC luthier told me it is better to ream the holes all the way thru the same size as the bushing hole, using the accurate 1/4" holes as a pilot. This apparently is to accommodate inaccurately made tuners. 

Any body have any thoughts on the relative merits of these 2 approaches? 


2. Tuner Brands. I've used Schaller and Golden Age tuners and am not entirely happy with either. Mostly with free play in the tuners even before installation and almost always afterwards - especially the troublesome D and A tuners. 

Gotoh and Grover both make similarly priced mandolin tuners (in the $70-$80 range). Any feedback on the relative merits of all these tuners? I am not willing to spend the money required for waverlies.

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## walt33

As an aside, StewMac lists Waverly tuners in the $500 range, the others in the $50+ range. Are they worth ten times the price??? 

Walt

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## mandroid

IMHO, I would Highlight the Phrase "Accurate Jig".. making accurate Jiggs and other production tooling will make your life  repeatably simpler .. 

and by being able to guide your drill press to make the holes the right spacing , consistently,  
the end results more satisfactory.


Schaller and the Elite  Tuner hardware use die-cast bushings , they are counter bored in from the face . and so you have 2 procedures that if not done with accuracy will haunt your future user's tuning .

Waverlys because the precise machine tolerances are tight Really need the spacing and alignment and flatness of the back of the  headstock to be spot on.

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## Gail Hester

> I drill 1/4" tuner holes using an accurate jig then use a pilot reamer from stewmac to create the bushing holes to just the depth required for the bushings.


I like your method #1 but it depends on the bushings.  I use vintage bushings fit with a tapered reamer and set aside most of the gaudy bushings that come with tuners other than Waverly's.  Other than Waverly tuners I prefer Gotoh's.  




> As an aside, StewMac lists Waverly tuners in the $500 range, the others in the $50+ range. Are they worth ten times the price???


Yes.

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## j. condino

The Stew mac mandolin tuning machine hole drilling jig may be the best $25 tool I've ever bought for building mandolins. Simple, works great, and is a no brainer. If you checkout my article in American Lutherie last year on mandolin tuning machines, you'll see that seven different machines use seven very different bushings, so I use a tapered reamer to fit the individual bushings. Just like Gail, if it is a lower priced set, I usually toss the factory bushings and use the simple, lightweight 1920s style. You'd be amazed how much some of the supplied bushings weigh ( Schallers.....). 

Waverly machines are great, no- they are fantastic and made by my homies in Montana, but when you consider that I once bought a running 1966 mustang for 1/4 the price, I can understand folks apprehension. Nicolo Alessi custom makes beautiful hand engraved machines In Italy for around $325, depending on the the Euro trading price. That's what are on my personal rig and what I'm now offering as standard equipment on new builds.

j.
www.condino.com

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## Michael Lewis

Bob, are you referring specifically to slop in mandolin machines, or just in those brands of machines in general?   

String post alignment is pretty important for all the brands, and critical for some.  If the string post is allowed to lean it can cause friction in the base plate and in the bushing.  This can cause enough resistance that the string tension can't pull the the gear faces together, and you will have slop between tuning up and tuning down.  The gear faces should be in contact with each other as long as there is string tension.

Or, the machines could just be excessively stiff in operation.  This situation will be apparent when you first handle them.

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## Martian

I have to agree with GCM, the jig from stew mac is one of the smallest cash outlay, and one of the best investments I have made I have done it by eye before with varying results in an area that you can not afford that. I just got this jig 3 days ago and as a test I layed out holes by eye drilled them, doweled them and re-drilled them with the jig it is spooky haw far off I was and my tuners just slid in like thet were made for them and turned like a breeze. incidentally, the tuners did go into my first holespaces and were a little stiff, that I assumed it was because they were new not poorly drilled

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## Lefty Luthier

> I'm new to the forum, forgive me if this has been covered before.
> I have 2 questions about 4-on-a-plate mandolin tuners (A-style in my case).
> 
> 1. Installation. I drill 1/4" tuner holes using an accurate jig then use a pilot reamer from stewmac to create the bushing holes to just the depth required for the bushings. 
> 
> Another BC luthier told me it is better to ream the holes all the way thru the same size as the bushing hole, using the accurate 1/4" holes as a pilot. This apparently is to accommodate inaccurately made tuners. 
> 
> Any body have any thoughts on the relative merits of these 2 approaches? 
> 
> ...


Failure to use a drill jig, the Stew-Mac is fine, is nearly a guarantee for tuner binding. Even if you have a CNC mill, using the jig and a hand drill will give a better job.

As to tuner quality, I have no quarrel with Golden Age for the money but I am no fan of Schaller. Personally I believe that Grovers are the best low end tuners with Gotoh a close second. None are good unless the guide holes are properly drilled, from the back. Personally, I never run the bushing reamer completely through since the 1/4 inch hole helps stabilize the base of the tuner.

There is no doubt in my mind that Waverly are the finest tuners built anywhere. I use them on as many instruments as I can convince the customer to purchase. As mentioned above, the holes must be spot on to realize their best performance.

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## nvanlaar

> Failure to use a drill jig, the Stew-Mac is fine, is nearly a guarantee for tuner binding.


Wouldn't separate, sealed tuners alleviate this?  I know they are not traditional, but keep wondering why they are not more commonly used on new mandos, especially non-traditional shapes.

Grover makes some mini's that are pretty small.

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## Bill Snyder

I think mostly weight and the fact they would take up more room, even the minis. Oh and there is that tradition thing.  :Wink:

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## nvanlaar

Weight didn't occur to me.  Is there really that much difference?

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## Jim Rowland

Weight is the usual argument. I've post on this a number of times,and that's what I hear. In fact,they work great,if that carries any weight.
Jim

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## nvanlaar

LOL, I've always liked them much better than open tuners on my guitars.  They seem smoother with less backlash to me, then again I'm not paying $500 for Waverly tuners... <shrug>

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## Rob Grant

FWIW

In a pinch, I've actually stripped the tuner plates and use them as a drill guide. Use a slightly undersized bradpoint bit and thinly tape the flukes to help prevent damage to the plate. In order for this to work both faces of the machine head (headstock: back and front) must be parallel. I also clamp a nice, flat piece of ply tightly to the face of the head stock to prevent the bit from breaking out chunks of the ebony veneer. I might also add that this is done with a drill press only. The table of the press must be perfectly level and perpendicular to the drill bit to get good results.

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## ellisppi

I second Rob's method, but would suggest buying a sacrificial set of tuners for the jig. It has several advantages, you can position and screw the plates down accurately and if you make a tapered backing board, tapered pegheads are no problem. And as for Lefty's comment that jig and hand drill is better than CNC, probably depends on the CNC and programmer. CNC's are like mandolins, very expensive and just sit there till either a 5 yr old or a master comes along and puts it in motion.

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## Bob Laughlin

[QUOTE=Michael Lewis;705874] _Bob, are you referring specifically to slop in mandolin machines, or just in those brands of machines in general?_  

i've only used golden age and schallers and have had slop problems with both - but i'm wondering if my 'accurate' homemade jig is the main problem - i already have the stewmac mandolin peghead drilling jig on order - thanks to all of you who mentioned it

[QUOTE=Michael Lewis;705874] _ If the string post is allowed to lean it can cause friction in the base plate and in the bushing.  This can cause enough resistance that the string tension can't pull the the gear faces together, and you will have slop between tuning up and tuning down. _ 

i see - so the string tension might actually remove some of the pre-existing slop, if the holes are drilled precisely, by allowing the round gear to be torqued into the worm gear for a tighter connection

by pre-existing slop i am referring to my recent golden gate order where roughly one tuner per plate can be turned about 30 degrees before the round gear is engaged (tuners not installed yet)

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## Bob Laughlin

[QUOTE=grandcanyonminstrel;705820] 
_.. If you checkout my article in American Lutherie last year on mandolin tuning machines ..._

i will dig out the article - thanks - by the way i love the look of your mandolins

_Just like Gail, if it is a lower priced set, I usually toss the factory bushings and use the simple, lightweight 1920s style._

are the vintage bushing you (and gail) use the 0733 ones stewmac sells as 1920's style tuner bushings?

i notice that stewmacs 3456 'vintage' tuner bushings are actually waverly guitar bushings (same specs at least) hence the waverly bushing reamer works on them - perhaps i will just use them with all mandolin tuner brands from now on

_Waverly machines are great_

i use waverlies on guitars and appreciate their fine quality - why are the mandolin tuners more than double the price of their guitar tuners?

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## j. condino

Bob:
These are the ones I was refering to:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/T...s.html#details





> CNC's are like mandolins, very expensive and just sit there till either a 5 yr old or a master comes along and puts it in motion.


That may be the best post I've heard here all summer!

j.

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## delsbrother

Just out of curiosity, if you suspect your tuners are binding, what is the cure?

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## HoGo

First: diagnose problem
second: if holes are wrong then plug them and re-drill properly
third: install the tuners back and enjoy

Back to OP.... I always drill bushing size hole all through headstock in one step. I don't think that leaving the hole 1/4 at the bottom is necessary as it will just cause problems in future when dust and such accumulates in there or the wood will move and the tuners may start binding later. I believe that two bearing surfaces are enough for a post (one at the plate, the other at the bushing). I used Schallers on all my mandolins but one with no problem. I tossed the supplied bushings and made my own smaller. The large bushings are extremely critical to precise installation and may be the reason why people blame Schallers. On the one mandolin I used Waverlies and was disappointed as they were a bit tight right from the box (which loosened after some use) and they had loose pearl buttons. The holes in the pearl were oversized and only tightening the screw would stop them from rattling but the screws kept on loosening after each five minutes of hard playing. Owner had to use thread locker on them to stop that. I think that $500 tuners should go without such problems from the factory.

One thing in this thread needs clarification... Some folks tell you should drill from rear while others say you should drill from front. I think they should tell to which surface the holes should be perpendicular which is more critical. I drill from front on drillpress and the holes are perpendicular to rear of headstock. Makers who use the jig and want holes perpendicular to back should apply the jig to rear and drill from there.
One more thing (I promise it's the last one) : If your headstock is tapered you are in potential trouble whenever you install tuners. Even if you drill holes perpendicular to rear to be nice to tuners, the bushings applied from front will either not sit flush to surface on one side (of course you can use press to force them into wood) or you'll ream the hole so thy'll have room to tilt a bit which will cause excessive friction if the holes in bushings are just right diameter for posts (typical for Schallers and Waverlies). I made my own bushings with slightly oversized hole (tapered hole would be best but it's not easy to make) that has room for such tilting so bushings are installed parallel to front of tapered headstock and cause no extra friction.

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## Fretbear

I agree with Adrian about drilling straight through; with the two bearing surfaces of the bushing and post plates established it is just asking for binding trouble to leave that last bit of wood there. When I changed out my Schallers for Grovers, I kept the original Schaller bushings to use as they seemed  so much more substantial compared to the ones that Grover supplied. They may have changed what they use since then.

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## Michael Lewis

Bob Laughlin,  the goal you are trying to achieve is for the string posts to be free to turn, and the string tension pulls them so the gear faces meet.  There can be lots of slop in the machines but if they are installed properly you would never know it unless you take all the tension off the string.  The original machines on the old Gibsons are like this, loose when no tension is on them but seem to work fine when the tension is there.  

What you can perceive as slop when the machines are in service is caused by friction somewhere in the mechanism, and this is most often caused by slightly misplaced holes for the bushings.

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## Bob Laughlin

_[QUOTE=HoGo;706881]
I always drill bushing size hole all through headstock in one step. I don't think that leaving the hole 1/4 at the bottom is necessary as it will just cause problems in future when dust and such accumulates in there or the wood will move and the tuners may start binding later. I believe that two bearing surfaces are enough for a post (one at the plate, the other at the bushing)._ 

that was what my fellow BC luthier (david sohn) recommended - i'm curious what others think of this method and whether they think it's necessary, or have got good result without it ...

_[QUOTE=HoGo;706881]
If your headstock is tapered you are in potential trouble whenever you install tuners ..._ 

my head stocks are not tapered

thanks for your thoughtful contribution adrian

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## Bob Laughlin

i now believe that my problems are most likely caused by my (once) accurate home-made hard maple peghead drilling jig simply wearing out from use

i had the stewmac one on order even before i posted the query - i'm hoping it solves the problems

for the sake of posteriority i will post a followup on this when i plug and redrill the latest mandolin 

thanks to all for sharing your knowledge re: mandolin tuner installation

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## Bob Laughlin

i said i'd post a followup to this thread so here it is somewhat belated - thanks to all who commented on the necessity of drilling mandolin tuner holes exactly right because you were right - after redrilling a half dozen mandolin tuner holes with the aid of the stewmac jig (item # 5007) many of the binding problems were solved - i think what happened was my home-made jig went south over the years after a dozen or so installations - in any case i was amazed how far off it was (almost 1/32" overall)

i don't actually use the stewmac jig (5007) to drill holes now - i made another much sturdier hard maple jig with it and will replace it when it gets old

the bushing extractor from stewmac (item # 0460) was indispensible in removing the existing bushings - its finicky but i eventually got a handle on it - i still just hammer them in on initial installation though

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## amowry

Hey Bob, I played your mando that you built for Brice Clausen, and I really like it!

I noticed a big change when I switched to the Stew-mac jigs, too. The older phenolic ones wore out quickly, but the new steel ones are great.

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## mtucker

i second Gail on gotoh's. the ga-elites have considerable slop in them and probably best to custom fit each set each time if using because of design/tolerance variance/&generally less costly materials.

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## Bob Laughlin

[QUOTE=amowry;783798]Hey Bob, I played your mando that you built for Brice Clausen, and I really like it!

hi andrew - bruce seems very impressed with your mandolins as well - i'll look you up if i pass by on the way to mexico sometime - bob

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## Bob Laughlin

> i second Gail on gotoh's. the ga-elites have considerable slop in them and probably best to custom fit each set each time if using because of design/tolerance variance/&generally less costly materials.


i've got a set of both gotohs and grovers which i plan to try on bouzoukis - i'll post a followup on my impressions of them when i do - bob

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## amowry

Sounds good, Bob! I like Gotohs too, for what it's worth. My only problem with Grovers is that the base plates are longer than all the other brands, so I can't use the same hole locations on my headstocks. I've never been enthralled with the shape of the buttons, either.

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## Jim Hilburn

This is what my Stew-Mac jig looks like these days. I never understood the extra length for clamping purposes so I lopped all that off. The V-cut is so I can see that I'm aligned with the centerline on my particular A-style headstock.
The hole centerlines scratched into the jig ( obviously missed on the first attempt) are no longer nessesary since I had the locator pin machined so I can pin it to guide holes I drill from the front once I decide where the tuners will be.
Very good clamping is a must with this jig and the locator pin helps with this. Any slippage and you'll be re-doing it.

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