# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  Is it the real?!?

## blindboy

Hi all,

My father in law who has since passed was an exceptional mandolin builder, many of his mandolins discussed within this forum.  Anyways he was known for building 'Loar' like mandolins.  When he passed we inherited one of his mandolins and for all intents and purposes looks to be an loar, old smell, labels, virzi hardware and all looks to be the real deal.  That said we never really heard the whole story on how he acquired it and he never really offered it up.  I think its the real deal, but my wife has her doubts and thinks it something he put together.

I'm looking for a way to tell for sure whether its real or an 'imposter'.  Looking for suggestions.

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## George R. Lane

Post some pictures. The Loar experts will chime in.

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## Glassweb

As always, your wife is probably right!

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## Big Joe

Knowing who your father in law was may give a real clue as well.  There are a number of us who can tell very quickly if we see it in person.  If you are in the Nashville area drop in with it and I will be happy to look it over for you.  Photos can be a real help, but nothing is as good as an in hands view.

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## f5loar

First off the top 10 very best Loar luthiers known on this planet are still living today (with the exception of Charlie Derrington) so count them out.  Could your father in law have bought a real Loar way back when they were about $1000?  Very possible.  However if you or your wife are still arguing over whether or not your father in law left you and the family with a possible $200K +/- mandolin and you have not taken the time to have it appraised before coming here questions your sanity for a reality check.  But heck who am I to judge.  Go ahead and post a couple dozen photos here from a high quality camera and you shall have your certified answer within hours for free.  Your mention of the virzi "hardware" and labels certaintly peaked my interest that it may indeed be the real deal.  Not many of the "virzi" mandolin makers bothered to copy the virzi label with serial no.

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## Jim MacDaniel

> As always, your wife is probably right!


Yep, that's rule # 1 in my house too. (And If she's wrong, refer to rule #1.)

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## blindboy

For the record... My father in law was Cliff Sargent.  Rhonda Vincent played one of his mandolins for stretch.

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## MikeEdgerton

> For the record... My father in law was Cliff Sargent.  Rhonda Vincent played one of his mandolins for stretch.


I kind a figured this was going to be the answer and if I was you I had that thing examined by someone that could appraise it. Heck, even if it's it's a Cliff Sargent it has some value.

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## f5loar

I forgot he did pass on not long ago.  Sorry for your loss.   Cliff was a master at building fake Loars and one of the best.  I don't recall he installed Virzis in his but possible.  Still worth checking it out for $50 to see if you have a $10K or a $200K mandolin.

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## djweiss

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure Cliff had a real Loar, too....so, it can go either way!

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## Loudloar

Hi Blindboy,
I'm sorry for your loss. Cliff is missed by many of us. I spent many an hour with him, visiting, playing, and talking mandolins. He built some impressive instruments, and yes he did have a real Loar to copy. I'm pretty sure his Loar didn't have a Virzi. One of his mandos sold on eBay a while back and it went for quite a bit. As I recall it was over $10k. So, even if what you have is one of his creations it is valuable. A couple pictures would help, especially the back of the headstock. I think most of his were built before the reproduction Waverly's came along, so he had to use import tuning machines. 
Regards, Steve

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## P.D. Kirby

:Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn: 

I just Love this kind of thread! It's one of the many reasons I keep this site on _SPEED DIAL_.
Can't wait to see how this one turns out. The world could be +1 on Lloyd Loar's...

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## Big Joe

I thought it might have been Cliff.  He was a sweet man and his wife was also a joy to be with.  Cliff did a great job in his builds and was as close as anyone to making a good "fake".  However, Cliff did own a real Loar as well.  It could be the real deal but only an inspection by one who can tell the difference will give you the answer.  I do miss seeing him and talking to him about mandolins and their construction.  I am sure he is sorely missed by his family.  He certainly is missed by those of us who got to know him.

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## blindboy

I've never been closer to any one individual(short of my wife of course) than I was with Cliff and really in a very short time.  I think of him every day and if there was any person I strive to be like, its him.  We shared many great talks, and he knew EVERYONE.  If the mandolin is the real deal or not, just the thought he gave it to us means more to me than anything.  I also have another mandolin that he made just for me.  There is no price I could ever put on it, if for no other reason he was my friend... of course it sounds pretty good too!

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## Loudloar

Here is the Cliff Sargent mandolin that was sold by Ted Smith on eBay, I believe in 2004. I filed this away, because Cliff was a friend and it had meaning to me. He was a wonderful guy, as everyone who ever met him will testify. As you can see, he did a fabulous job creating an authentic aged look. You can also see the import tuners, which were the best available at the time.





Here is part of the eBay auction description:

This mandolin was custom built by Northern California's main Gibson F-5 mandolin maker, Cliff Sargent of Sacramento, CA.  
This mandolin was built in 1996 for local mandolin player Ken Cromer.  Cliff puts Gibson in all his mandolins - except Ken wanted his initials - KC - in the peghead of this mandolin.  This is a terrific mandolin in playabliity and sound.
Cliff Sergent is about 80 years old now. He has been playing since he was a teenager. He lived in Montana for years, then moved to Sacramento. He has spent some of his time making a very limited number of mandolins. Many years ago he acquired his prized 1922 Lloyd Loar F5 Mandolin, and immediately started taking measurements for his mandolins he was building. Several years ago he had MRI's done on his Loar F5 mandolin, every 1/8 inch. Those measurements are the starting measurements for the mandolins he has built since then.
He builds one at a time. He strings them up unfinshed and plays them for a couple of days to decide where to shape the top and back for the best sound. He may take the back off four or five times until he is satisfied with the sound. The Gibson Company has made offers to him to head up the mandolin building part of their operation. He considered this but finally decided to say no.
Cliff is a great older gentleman, one of the "good-ole-boy" category and he is a wonderful guy to visit and pick with, to listen to all of his stories. I really enjoy any time spent with Cliff.
WHO owns his mandolins? Rhonda Vincent owns 2, Ron Spears owns 2. Ronny McCoury, Calin Roberts and Brian Anldridge own one. In total,Cliff has made 33 mandolins.

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## Gail Hester

A few years ago I had the pleasure of owning and restoring a 1987 Sargent mandolin.  During that process I started a thread asking for information about Cliff and his mandolins.  The response was overwhelming and I as I absorbed everything that was sent to me I became aware of how much people who knew him cared about him and a sense of how many friends Cliff had.  I would have loved to have met him.

I can't attempt answer your question without seeing the mandolin but here is a picture taken from Cliff's shop that I received that may help.  The lighter colored mandolin is the 1987 that I worked on although it looked much different when I got it.  From what I remember, one of the apparent Loars was a reworked F4 while the other was the real deal.  The F4 heal button was the giveaway on that one.  I'll try to find a picture of the backs.

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## Jesse Harmon

Being new to mandolins I would love to see a picture of Cliff and/or related pictures of instruments and his life.  Sounds like a interesting guy and the real deal.

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## blindboy

Cliff on his 80th birthday

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## f5loar

If the above mandolin is the one you are talking about it's not a good enough photo to tell details for proof positive but from what little I see in that photo I'm going with that one is not the real deal but a very nice copy.  But since most here have verified he did own a real Loar you must want know what happended to it if you didn't get it. Post a photo here of the one you inherited and you will get an answer very quickly.

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## Glassweb

The pearl buttons don't look quite right Tom... Too big and too flat like the newer Wavelys... Hard to tell from the photo though...

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## f5loar

True but remember you can replace the original Loar tuners with the newer Waverly's that are spaced right for Loars.
I know personally of several Loars that have done that to preserve the original tuners.  I was going more by the darker stain around the F hole and the whiter then normal vintage binding.  And the MM label looks too big on the oval cut.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Well,it looks as though this could go either way. We have a gent who seems to have been a very good builder indeed,who made Gibson 'repros.' ( i won't call them 'fakes' as they were probably never intended to be passed of as a genuine Gibson),but who had a _real_ Loar as well.
  Personally,i think that it's a question only an expert can answer & i'd get the instrument inspected ASAP.It's too important not do do so.You could be holding a VERY important & expensive instrument.
   As a matter of interest,who is the leading authority on Loars & who would you suggest inspected this one for authenticity ?,
                                                                                      Ivan

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## MandoSquirrel

Big Joe,certainly, & some of the others posting here would probably be good for expert evaluation, as well as some of the leading vintage retailers. And Darryl W of course.

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## Glassweb

Tom and Darryl... Gruhn... Wexer... Williamson... they all know their Loars exceedingly well...

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## Gail Hester

Agree with Glassweb but again, this may be as simple as seeing a picture of the back.  As I remember Cliff had two, one was an F4 worked to an F5 and the other a Loar.  I can also appreciate that he may have lots of folks talking to him now and may not want to continue this in public.  In any case, good luck to him.

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## HoGo

> A few years ago I had the pleasure of owning and restoring a 1987 Sargent mandolin.  During that process I started a thread asking for information about Cliff and his mandolins.  The response was overwhelming and I as I absorbed everything that was sent to me I became aware of how much people who knew him cared about him and a sense of how many friends Cliff had.  I would have loved to have met him.
> 
> I can't attempt answer your question without seeing the mandolin but here is a picture taken from Cliff's shop that I received that may help.  The lighter colored mandolin is the 1987 that I worked on although it looked much different when I got it.  From what I remember, one of the apparent Loars was a reworked F4 while the other was the real deal.  The F4 heal button was the giveaway on that one.  I'll try to find a picture of the backs.


Gail, I see no Loar in the pics. The one on the left is apparently reworked F-4 (headstock, f holes slanted more than a Loar). The one in the center is copy, the f holes are wrong, too curved, the scroll ridge is too far from edge and goes inward towards end while on Loars it goes closer to edge, the f/b extension is straight, not curved. The curve on bass side from nut to headstock is not correct. The trussrod cover is not authentic. There is too wide crosspiece on the bass side shifting the scroll too far from neck.
I guess that's enough to tell it's not a real deal.

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## HoGo

I also have feeling that the mandolin Cliff S is holding on the birthday photo is DMM... The headstock has the feel of the CNC inlay, extension is straight, scroll shape consistent with modern Gibsons.
Gail are you sure he really owned a Loar? I know several very good violinmakers who gave "real" Strads to customers for comparison to their instruments. The Strads were actually very good fakes that they (or someone else) made. Ordinary customer wouldn't find out the truth...

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## RichieK

Cliff was a really great guy. I was on his list before he passed away. He told me that he could do a Virzi, if I wanted. Another wonderful person is Gail Hester, and she did a great job on the '87 Sargent.

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## Jim Ferguson

> Yep, that's rule # 1 in my house too. (And If she's wrong, refer to rule #1.)


Yes indeed....:-)  Same in my house......in fact, when my wife wants my opinion she gives it to me!!!!!!!!  ;-)
Peace,
Jim

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

I only had the good fortune to meet and visit with Cliff one time, and that was at IBMA in Louisville some years back.  Larry Wexer flew down and rode up there with me.  He had two Loars with him that weekend and handed one to me and said "you take this one for the weekend".  So, I was standing in line waiting to buy my ticket at the Gault, and this older gentleman came up and inquired what was in the case, so I told him.  He said he had one and invited me over to see it.  Then he introduced himself.  Of course, I knew who he was and his reputation for building great mandolins.  He showed me his Loar, and as I remember, it did have a Virzi.  He told me he'd taken an Exacto razor saw and cut one of the feet free of the top, but left the Virzi in the instrument.  Cliff said it really opened it up.  So, unless my memory is way off, Cliff did indeed have a real Loar with a Virzi.

By the way Blindboy... that photo of Popcorn Sutton in your avatar was taken by my brother!

Lynn

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## craigw

I knew Cliff for several years and feel privileged to have been his friend. Every year when I would arrive at the Fathers Day Festival in Grass Valley, CA Cliff would bring his Loar and his latest mando build and we'd visit at length. When I first started thinking about getting into building, Cliff invited me to spend some time with him. I lived about 300 miles away but went up to Sacramento and spent three wonderful days with Cliff and his wife. They treated me like a king, with great home cooking and a place to stay in the guest room. My thought was that I could just hang out and observe Cliff in "hands on" bulding but the first two days Cliff just wanted to visit and tell stories. (Cliff had been a WWII veteran and a few years before I met him he'd fallen off a roof and become partially paralyzed. It was absolutely remarkable that he was able to do anything at all with his physical limitastions, let alone finely craft Loar style mandolins and that is a testament to his unbelievable grit and detrmination. Cliff was great guy and always a real gentleman. I still miss him).  I recall going with him across the street to visit with a fellow who built custom chairs and furniture from exotic hardwoods and he shipped them all over the country. We also made a trip out to Michael Lewis' shop in Grass Valley where we checked out Michael's operation. It wasn't until the day I had to leave that Cliff began to seriously talk (never did see him in action) about mandolin construction and I was able to take some copious notes. 
Cliff did have a Loar that I had played on many occasions. At some point in time someone had done a ctscan or some such testing that produced about 22 pie slice pictures of the sound chamber of his Loar. Cliff made copies for me (which I still have) and I was later able to piece them together and diagram the tone bar positioning and later make a template that I have used it in laying out the tone bars for all the F models I have made thus far. 
I don't recall Cliff having a Virzi in that Loar and certainly a Virzi doesn't show up on ctscan but maybe Cliff could have had another Loar, I don't know? I do know, however, that Cliff was a student of the Loar and tried to stay within a gnat's eyelash of making his own mandolins just like a Loar and could have recreated a Virzi if he had wanted. Before Cliff died he had started to partner with Dan Bernstein in building "The Sierra" F style mandolins. Dan is still in the area and could be a good resource in identifying the mandolins Cliff owned. Michael Lewis was also friend of Cliff's and might also have some knowledge of his instruments.

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## Lawrence Smart

Cliff stopped by my shop in McCall several years back while he was visiting family there. He Had a Loar in the trunk of his car which he brought in and showed to me along with another that he had made. The Loar did have a virzi in it, and somewhere I have copies of the aforementioned ctscans.  He had great enthusiasm for mandolins and Loars in particular.  I feel honored to have been able to meet him.

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## f5loar

A well known mandolin luthier dies owning 2 Loar mandolins (some say a '22, others a '24 with virzi which means he likely had 2) and the family doesn't know where they are at?  Very interesting!  It's like you won the lottery but lost the ticket stub.

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## Rroyd

Cafe member Zeke was talking about Cliff Sargent this last weekend at Wintergrass, and mentioned that he had 2 Loars, and that they had gone to family members after Mr. Sargent's passing.  Perhaps this is one of them, but one would hope that a bit of information or history would have been passed on as well.  Jump in here any time, Zeke, and fill us in with any details you might have.

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## blindboy

> A well known mandolin luthier dies owning 2 Loar mandolins (some say a '22, others a '24 with virzi which means he likely had 2) and the family doesn't know where they are at?  Very interesting!  It's like you won the lottery but lost the ticket stub.


Whoa never thought my post would have caught such fire!  In response to the quote above, never said we did not know where they were... my wife just questioned whether the one with the virzi was the real deal(which Cliff told me it was, and I think it is). I simply thought it would be fun to post to get some feedback from those that knew him to put the friendly disagreement between my wife and I to bed.  For what it worth all his mandolins are well taken care of and are continually played which is the way Cliff would have wanted it.

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## blindboy

My 'Cliffy' special... number 26

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## Dobe

[QUOTE=blindboy;899396]
 For what it worth all his mandolins are well taken care of and are continually played which is the way Cliff would have wanted it. 


Amen !    :Sleepy:

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## f5loar

If you want to put to bed the disagreement between you and your wife and then all you need to do is post a few photos of the F5 in question and within a few hours you both can go to bed!  We've not seen a photo of the one in question, only others that are not the real deal.  But if you know where 2 of them are then it's more likely yours is not one of them.

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## adizz

I don't want to come off as being rude, but why won't you post a picture of the mandolin in question. It seems like you could get some quick answers. Either way you've got a great mandolin its ashame it came to you in such sad way.

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## blindboy

> I don't want to come off as being rude, but why won't you post a picture of the mandolin in question. It seems like you could get some quick answers. Either way you've got a great mandolin its ashame it came to you in such sad way.


Our questions have all been answered.  Thanks for the insight.

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## f5loar

Can anyone who knew Cliff (or a family member) tells us how many F5 Loar copies he made using the "The gibson" logo and labels?
And how many total mandolin production did he make?  Did he make other instruments?

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## Andrew B. Carlson

Maybe Mr. Wolfe could add em all to the archive...?  :Wink:

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## HoGo

> My 'Cliffy' special... number 26


This one looks much closer to real deal, correct f-hole shape, however the scroll ridge is done in the style of modern Gibsons going inside at its end not towards waist. The extension has good shape (mid '23-ish) though the small point on the f/b seems to be rounded. The neck should be moved a tiny bit closer to body scroll as well. The carving or the binding joint in the scroll looks a bit funny but that may be due to small size of the picture.
Please post pic of the real one. Is it in the archive? If not, many would love to see it.

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## AlanN

I briefly met Cliff at IBMA Louisville, maybe 1999, played one of his great mandolins. He came across as a gentle, quiet man.

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## Tim W

Judging by his last post, I think the original poster is done with this thread and has evidently chosen to keep pics of the mandolin private. Glad to hear they are being played regular.

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## P.D. Kirby

> Judging by his last post, I think the original poster is done with this thread and has evidently chosen to keep pics of the mandolin private. Glad to hear they are being played regular.



+1 I for one completely understand his reluctance to post a picture of this treasure. If I had $225,000.00 laying around the house I don't think I would broadcast it to the world. I am satisfied that Cliff indeed had at least one if not two Loars and it has been fun reading about a great builder who I unfortunately never had a chance to meet. 

All my best to the family and a big thanks for all that shared their stories of Cliff. His spirit will live on through his creations and a little mystery is always a good thing. My guess is one day we will see his Loar(s) pop up on one of the sites for sale and then we will know for sure. I am satisfied until that time.

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## mandograss

I don't think a picture would have done much anyway. With a short sound clip, Rick could compare it to his Red Diamond and tell us if it is the real deal or not.

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## Scotti Adams

> I don't think a picture would have done much anyway. With a short sound clip, Rick could compare it to his Red Diamond and tell us if it is the real deal or not.


####..I just about #### all over myself on that one

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## G. Fisher

> I don't think a picture would have done much anyway. With a short sound clip, Rick could compare it to his Red Diamond and tell us if it is the real deal or not.



 :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Wink:

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## JonZ

Forget about the pictures, post an mp3 file. There are plenty of people on this site who will be able to identify the "Ultimate Mandolin" when they hear it.  :Grin:

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## JEStanek

Mandograss (and others), please remember that this forum is a nurturing environment and that trolling for its own sake tells us as much about you as it adds to the subject being discussed.  Ask yourself, what do comments like that serve?  I would suggest you review the first of our Guidelines, once again.

Jamie

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## Elliot Luber

> +1 I for one completely understand his reluctance to post a picture of this treasure. If I had $225,000.00 laying around the house I don't think I would broadcast it to the world. I am satisfied that Cliff indeed had at least one if not two Loars and it has been fun reading about a great builder who I unfortunately never had a chance to meet. 
> 
> All my best to the family and a big thanks for all that shared their stories of Cliff. His spirit will live on through his creations and a little mystery is always a good thing. My guess is one day we will see his Loar(s) pop up on one of the sites for sale and then we will know for sure. I am satisfied until that time.


The silence is both deafening and telling. He was left a real legacy... and a few nice mandolins too!

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## Nelson Peddycoart

Blindboy,

Even if you have a real (or two real) Loars in your possession, it sounds to me like the most prized possession is the friendship and memory of Mr. Sargent.  He sounds like the kinda fella I'd like to sit down and spend a little time talking with.

Nelson

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## craigw

Just to set the record straight, I located the ctscan images of Cliff's Loar and lo and behold, there is evidence that it possessed a Virzi. It's been a few years since I looked at them and I just didn't remember it having the Virzi.

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## mandolirius

> +1 I for one completely understand his reluctance to post a picture of this treasure. If I had $225,000.00 laying around the house I don't think I would broadcast it to the world.


I don't understand. He has already "broadcast to the world" (although that seems a bit overblown) that he has the mandolin. What difference is a picture going to make, assuming it's not going to be accompanied by his name and address. This just seems like groundless paranoia. 

It also makes me wonder about the nature of forums like this. I don't think it should be a matter of coming here to get what you want, with minimal input, and not really participate. The OP would surely have known that many forum users would be very interested in this and refusing to post a picture or participate in the discussion strikes me as rather selfish.

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## mandolirius

> Mandograss (and others), please remember that this forum is a nurturing environment and that trolling for its own sake tells us as much about you as it adds to the subject being discussed.  Ask yourself, what do comments like that serve?  I would suggest you review the first of our Guidelines, once again.
> 
> Jamie


His joke was about a certain attention-seeking poster and, as such, was fair comment, imo.

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## blindboy

> I don't understand. He has already "broadcast to the world" (although that seems a bit overblown) that he has the mandolin. What difference is a picture going to make, assuming it's not going to be accompanied by his name and address. This just seems like groundless paranoia. 
> 
> It also makes me wonder about the nature of forums like this. I don't think it should be a matter of coming here to get what you want, with minimal input, and not really participate. The OP would surely have known that many forum users would be very interested in this and refusing to post a picture or participate in the discussion strikes me as rather selfish.


Holy Cow!  I never would have thought an innocent/friendly post on this site would cause such a ruckus. I simply posted to get _general_ feedback, even looking to keep names out of it.   I then figured maybe if I offered up a name, maybe those that knew Cliff and had seen, held and played his mandolins would chime in.  To be completely honest when I saw some reaction wasn't what I really wanted, nor intended I decided to graciously bow out.  I never intended to be 'selfish' or anything  along those lines, I simply decided to seek advice through other means and considered the thought that Cliff may not have liked it either.  I love this site, the mandolin and bluegrass(and of course the people, which started with Cliff).

Apologies and thanks to all that offered up friendly and sound advice.

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## George R. Lane

Blindboy,
I understand and agree with you. 
Sometimes folks here get a little riled up at the mention of a Loar.
Best of luck to you.

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## barney 59

It's simple, we are selfish! We want the eye candy! WE WANT THE EYE CANDY! Aw ..... come on, give us the eye candy!

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## mandolirius

> Holy Cow!  I never would have thought an innocent/friendly post on this site would cause such a ruckus. I simply posted to get _general_ feedback, even looking to keep names out of it.   I then figured maybe if I offered up a name, maybe those that knew Cliff and had seen, held and played his mandolins would chime in.  To be completely honest when I saw some reaction wasn't what I really wanted, nor intended I decided to graciously bow out.  I never intended to be 'selfish' or anything  along those lines, I simply decided to seek advice through other means and considered the thought that Cliff may not have liked it either.  I love this site, the mandolin and bluegrass(and of course the people, which started with Cliff).
> 
> Apologies and thanks to all that offered up friendly and sound advice.


I understand a bit better after this post. I'm really not sure where this thread went off the rails for you or what you expected might happen on an open public forum but I appreciate you weren't trying to be selfish, just jumped in and found the water not to you're liking. I certainly meant no insult to you personally but was commenting on forums and their usage, in a general way.

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## f5loar

At least let us drool over a full back shot if it's real or not!  We already know you can post a photo.  If you go back to the first post of asking is it real or not, we felt you wanted an honest answer.  We in turn said no problem but you at least need to post a few photos to get an answer to your question.   After 60 posts your answer has not been gotten from us.  If you turned to outside sources for authentication that's great but why leave us hanging in the sidelines here?  It's no secret now that Cliff had at least one Loar and likely 2 Loars.  I personally only knew of his Feb. 18, 1924 F5 Loar.

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## woodwizard

:Coffee:   :Popcorn:

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## Ivan Kelsall

However good the intentions & advice of the 'experts' on here,you still need to get he instrument verified as a Loar or not,if for nothing else,your _own information_ & realisation of the instrument's value for insurance etc. No amount of educated 'guessing' is going to get it done,even by the experts,
                                                       Best wishes - Ivan :Wink:

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## P.D. Kirby

> I don't understand. He has already "broadcast to the world" (although that seems a bit overblown) that he has the mandolin. What difference is a picture going to make, assuming it's not going to be accompanied by his name and address. This just seems like groundless paranoia.


Groundless Paranoia? I think not, anyone who thinks that they are hiding behind the perceived anonymity of the web should do a little research. Even the lesser gifted hackers can back trace anything you put on the web right to your front door. There are many software packages commercially available to do just that. The more sophisticated hackers do this all the time, just remember there is no anonymity on the web. Just read the newspaper about how the FBI, CIA, and NSA track posts right back to the street, house and very computer that posted it and for what it's worth the really good hackers don't work for the government. A $225,000.00 payday can attract all kinds of attention and more often than not, the kind you don't want.
Just Sayin

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## Rick Cadger

Did some posts get deleted from this thread?  :Confused:

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## MikeEdgerton

> Groundless Paranoia? I think not, anyone who thinks that they are hiding behind the perceived anonymity of the web should do a little research. Even the lesser gifted hackers can back trace anything you put on the web right to your front door.....


I've been in the industry a long time, take my word for it, hackers would rather steal your money via the web than travel to your house and steal anything. It's a better return with less risk.

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## f5loar

I don't see any missing or removed posts.  All numbers accounted for.

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## allenhopkins

> Did some posts get deleted from this thread?


Yeah, a "slam" was posted and then removed; you can still read it in quotes, if you want to, and Jamie's admonishment as well.  Nothin' to see here, folks, keep movin'...

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## Jeff Budz

IMO the "Slam" was funny...

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## barney 59

> Groundless Paranoia? I think not, anyone who thinks that they are hiding behind the perceived anonymity of the web should do a little research. Even the lesser gifted hackers can back trace anything you put on the web right to your front door. There are many software packages commercially available to do just that. The more sophisticated hackers do this all the time, just remember there is no anonymity on the web. Just read the newspaper about how the FBI, CIA, and NSA track posts right back to the street, house and very computer that posted it and for what it's worth the really good hackers don't work for the government. A $225,000.00 payday can attract all kinds of attention and more often than not, the kind you don't want.
> Just Sayin


But the damage is already done. He's announced to the world that he has it (if he has) and everything that someone would need to hack into his identity is already in place or at least wouldn't be more in place from his posting a photo. I have to question whether or not it is in his possession at all. Maybe he wants it to be but hasn't worked out the details as yet. He was pretty good at posting pictures of other stuff but not the Loar. Was there ever a serial # offered?

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## bernabe

Wow. Ya dont read stuff like this here everyday. Or anywhere.

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## pjlama

Please stop...

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## f5loar

I now recall that Cliff's Feb. 18, 1924 Loar with Virzi was purchased at Gryphon Music in 1987.  This same Loar was sold in 2007 for about $170,000.    I'm not aware of any other Loars that Cliff owned included the supposedly 1922 F5.  I think that is a date misprint in the article posted here and they meant to say it was a 1924.  Although I only meet Cliff very briefly once in my lifetime he may have had a closet full of original Loars.  He only showed me one and this is the one that was sold in 2007.  It seems the OP does not want us drooling over photos of Cliff's fake Loars as those photos have been removed.  I do have photos of Cliff's '24 Loar but since the cafe changed the way photos are posted I've not been able to post any more photos.

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## barney 59

This is all fascinating! I wonder if the widow Cliff or whoever is next in line knows that there are possible genuine Loars mixed in with a pile of reproductions?

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## MikeEdgerton

> This is all fascinating! I wonder if the widow Cliff or whoever is next in line knows that there are possible genuine Loars mixed in with a pile of reproductions?


I'm going to hazard a guess that at least two of them do, yes.

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## Tom C

> I now recall that Cliff's Feb. 18, 1924 Loar with Virzi was purchased at Gryphon Music in 1987.  This same Loar was sold in 2007 for about $170,000.    I'm not aware of any other Loars that Cliff owned included the supposedly 1922 F5.  I think that is a date misprint in the article posted here and they meant to say it was a 1924.  Although I only meet Cliff very briefly once in my lifetime he may have had a closet full of original Loars.  He only showed me one and this is the one that was sold in 2007.  It seems the OP does not want us drooling over photos of Cliff's fake Loars as those photos have been removed.  I do have photos of Cliff's '24 Loar but since the cafe changed the way photos are posted I've not been able to post any more photos.


Go to photobucket.com or the sorts. Upload in your own free account. Then reference them here.

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## f5loar

You lost me on the "go to" and "upload" and "free" .  That's 3 steps that wind up being a 1000 when I get done fooling around trying to figure it out.  The only way you will get me to go to and upload for free is if you come to my house and put my fingers on the buttons that need to be pushed to get the end result.  I'd rather be picking a mandolin then spending hours on end failing at trying to figure that out on this darn thing.
No need to as the photos I have are already posted to the F5 Journal archives here at the cafe.  While I can't out of respect for the family give out the exact serial no.  you know from me and others it was a Feb. 18, 1924 with virzi.  Search that date and narrow it down to more information I have given you here and there you will find a dozen or so photos of at least one of Cliff's former Loars.

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## JonZ

> Mandograss (and others), please remember that this forum is a nurturing environment and that trolling for its own sake tells us as much about you as it adds to the subject being discussed.  Ask yourself, what do comments like that serve?  I would suggest you review the first of our Guidelines, once again.
> 
> Jamie


Group hug!

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## JEStanek

No.  There's no need for a group hug.  There's no need to feign warm feelings for people who rub you the wrong way.  There is however, no place for antagonizing others (particularly people who haven't even participated in the current thread).  It doesn't matter if it's funny or if others "get the joke."  It's a violation of the Posting Guidelines.  The guidelines are in place to ensure that the forums remain a source of decent information (or at least information relevant to the thread) through time. 

Jamie

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## JonZ

No group hug... :Frown:

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## ColdBeerGoCubs

How bout a group fist bump?

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