# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

## Andrew B. Carlson

Just saw this on Frank Solivans instagram.

https://instagram.com/p/7q_zcFo4aP/

Sounds exciting!

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Bigtuna, 

Bill Halsey, 

Dobe, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Joey Anchors, 

Mando-Mauler

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## Glassweb

If anyone can set this important instrument straight it would be Steven Gilchrist. I believe he has worked on and restored more Loar F5s than anyone alive... including one of mine many years ago. Not only is Steve an amazingly talented guy, he is an amazingly _nice_ and _decent_ man besides...

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Hendrik Ahrend, 

sgarrity

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## mrmando

What are those e-mandos hanging up in the back?

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## Glassweb

> What are those e-mandos hanging up in the back?


that's kinda what i was wondering... they look my-t-fine!

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## hank

Ok.  I joined Instagram trying to get more info but I must need adult supervision.  How do you get the details of Frank S. new very old mandolin?  I remember reading somewhere he was playing his own Siminoff kit build.  He must be doing pretty good locking into the Holy Grail prototype with Luthier extrodinare as his companion in the art to tweak it back to optimum. There has to be more than the tease that got me to join up and follow.

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## kudzugypsy

wasn't that the Loar that was in eastern NC for decades?

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## AlanN

Yep, the long-time owner died a few years ago, I guess the family gave it up. I've played it, just a dandy, June 1922. Would love to see it post-restore.

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## Bill Snyder

I see no indication that this is Frank's mandolin.

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## Jeff Mando

I would like to see what the restoration involves and hopefully pictures!   :Smile:

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## Dan Co1e

Interesting instrument.

From Instagram:




fsolivan:  It's not very often one holds the first ever/prototype Lloyd Loar signed Gibson mandolin. With Steve Gilchrist no less. He's about to completely restore it! Son!

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## Andrew B. Carlson

Looks like he met Steve at Carter Vintage according to his other posts. Looks like Steve brought another batch to CVG. Unless these photos were taken awhile ago and just posted this week. So either Carters got the Loar, or Steve simply picked it up there. 
https://instagram.com/p/7tkfIho4W8/

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## Perry

I believe Steve's son is making those e-mandos. 

https://www.facebook.com/gilchristelectricguitars

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## ferrousgeek

> Yep, the long-time owner died a few years ago, I guess the family gave it up. I've played it, just a dandy, June 1922. Would love to see it post-restore.


Alan,

Who, in Eastern NC, owned this Loar originally? You may PM me if you prefer.

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## AlanN

The last owner I know of it was Pat H., who had it for a long time. I played it at Mayes store in Duncan one time, also at Phil Scotton's weekly jam in Ramseur, NC. What an E string.

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DataNick

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## ferrousgeek

Thanks Alan, It dawned on me right after posting, this was the Loar that was stolen from Pat a few years ago and, fortunately, captured and returned to him soon afterward. I never met Pat, but would have enjoyed the opportunity. Have you ever played any of the mandos he built?

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...922-Gibson-F-5

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...1-owner-passes

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## AlanN

Yeah, that was a strange theft.

Never did see any of Pat's mandolins he built, did not know he was a builder. His playing style was more folksy Italian-esque. He didn't pick much bluegrass, as far as I could tell.

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## walter carter

Those electrics were made by Steve's son Daniel. They have a maple neck-thru. 5 single strings or standard 8-string. Steve Earle bought the first one.

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## Bernie Daniel

Does anyone know what is being "restored" on this mandolin?  It looks reasonably intact in the one photos shown?  Just a re-fret and set up perhaps?

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## AlanN

It has a crudely-repaired top crack running the length of the face. 

There are some terrific photos of 70281 in Darryl Wolfe's F-5 Journal (vol. III, 1999).

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Bernie Daniel

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## Fretbear

This is one of the more interesting stories to come along on the MC for some time.
Hoping Steve and Frank will photograph and document the restoration of this important piece and share it with us here.

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/70281

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FLATROCK HILL

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## BradKlein

Yes. I don't think anyone's brought up the thorny conservation questions around this instrument. Given its historical importance, I suppose that a complete top refinish is unlikely, but the original repairs leave a lot to be desired. Anyway, it's sure to be an interesting story if the details are made public. 

I once had a chance to examine the 'Red Mendelssohn' Strad, which bore a long clear 'scar' on it's top from some unknown (and less than masterful) repairman in it's almost 300-year history (much clearer in person than in this photo). Didn't stop it from setting a record for any musical instrument at auction 25-odd years ago. (It was purchased by Elizabeth Pitcairn, then a young student, and now a professional soloist)

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## Darryl Wolfe

I just saw this.  This is very exciting to me.

I was contacted by the family after "Pat" passed.  I recommended Carter Vintage to them to sell the mandolin.  To my knowledge, they never struck a deal as most viewed the instrument as a low end of the price spectrum "dog", not an historically significant Loar.

Essentially, the huge crack was a deal breaker with respect to the middle of the road Loar price they were seeking.

I did recommend that they consider have Gilchrist restore the instrument.  That is the last I heard.

This mandolin sounds phenomenal and has a number of very odd "prototypical" features.

I am very interested in seeing this completed.  

Steve may even be able to salvage most of the top finish.  The rest of the instrument merely needs tidying up as it displays decades of grime and dirt.

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Bernie Daniel, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Mando-Mauler, 

Spruce

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## AlanN

Good post, Darryl.

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

> I believe Steve's son is making those e-mandos. 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/gilchristelectricguitars


That may be one Gilchrist I can actually afford to own - besides the ivoroid Gilchrist pick that I used to have

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## Timbofood

Yep, this will be a fun one to watch!
Interesting history. Sure will be a joy to see it restored by someone who knows what it is and how to do things "right"!

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

I have vague recollection of the theft that took place, and it's good to see it being worked on by Steve's masterful hands. If it's being sold I can't think of a better place than CVG to handle it.

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## Ken Waltham

This is really exciting to me as well! I have never played or even seen this F5, but it is legendary in Loar circles. If you've not seen photos of it, it has a seriously bad repair going on, and Steve is the only man on the planet that can do it right! He will make this F5 into something totally amazing!! Can''t wait!

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Bernie Daniel, 

Glassweb, 

Mando-Mauler

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## Bill Snyder

> This is really exciting to me as well! I have never played or even seen this F5, but it is legendary in Loar circles. If you've not seen photos of it, it has a seriously bad repair going on, and Steve is the only man on the planet that can do it right! He will make this F5 into something totally amazing!! Can''t wait!


Really? The only man on the planet that can do it right? That's awful. That means that when he is no longer doing repairs like this there will not be ANYONE else capable.

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Nick Gellie

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## Ivan Kelsall

IMHO,i would think that other outstanding luthiers such as John Monteleone & Lynn Dudenbostel could do a good job on this Loar as well. I would agree that Steve G.will do a sterling job but, 'the only man' ????,
                                                                                                        Ivan

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## Hendrik Ahrend

'The only man'? Are we nit-picking about words? Steve will do a fine job. I wonder, though, will he refinish only one half of the top or the whole instrument? Such context entails various decisions, such as should one even try to get close to the original Loar varnish recipe (which is not even fully known; Steve's own is probably superior)?

I'm really curious. BTW Steve certainly did a great job on this one:www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/75319

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Bernie Daniel, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Timbofood

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## Ivan Kelsall

In the light of what's been done to expensive mandolins in the past,& knowing SG's skill,i'd expect him to remove the top & inspect it thoroughly to understand exactly what requires doing. I've no doubt that it can be inspected without removing the top,but whether the work could be done effectively is another matter. If he gets to hear of this thread,i hope Mr Gilchrist will chip in & update us with some 'facts'. Without facts,whatever we post is mere conjecture (at the moment),
                                                                                                                                   Ivan

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FLATROCK HILL, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

I agree, Steve Gilchrest is a great choice for this restoration project but, I'm pretty sure there are a couple of guys out there with the skill set to do an equally accurate restoration.
It's exciting to see the hub-bub over this even before he's had time to get into the project.

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Tom Sanderson

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## Ken Waltham

I'll stick to my statement...

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Spruce

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## Fretbear

As it is presently in Mr. G's hands, these discussions are all moot, and we can all agree that is the place it should be.

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Timbofood

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## hank

:Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:

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Timbofood, 

Tom Sanderson

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## AlanN

As one who has first-hand experience with SG's restorative work, I'm with Ken, and am looking forward to the (re)finished project.

And please, please spell his name correctly...sheesh.

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## Timbofood

Sorry, finger glitch!
I'm sure that's never happened to you Alan. :Grin: 
Popcorn indeed Hank!
I certainly did not infer that it was NOT in good hands simply that I know of another very talented luthier who would treat the instrument with equal care and respect.
Now that SG has it, there is no reason to second guess the quality of workmanship will go into the restoration. I, for one, will certainly be happy to hear the project has been completed however long it may take. It's lasted this long with less than optimum care and after this, it should be around to celebrate another milestone birthday down the line.

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## shylock3

[
Steve is a fabulous person, you guys are sure putting the pressure on him. His reputation has been well earned. As far as anyone else doing as good a job as him, you would have had to have had a lot of work done by different luthiers-to know.
He will do a superb job, could someone have done better, we'll never know.

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Timbofood

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## Hendrik Ahrend

> [
> Steve is a fabulous person, you guys are sure putting the pressure on him. His reputation has been well earned. As far as anyone else doing as good a job as him, you would have had to have had a lot of work done by different luthiers-to know.
> He will do a superb job, could someone have done better, we'll never know.


If this thread put pressure on Steve, he would be the wrong person to do the job. But I think he is fine and fully aware of the importance of this work at hand. And as always, there's more than one way to do this job right - and afterwards clucking chickens.

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Timbofood

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## AlanN

Yes, Timbo, I have been guilty of the fat-finger. It's just that Steve's name seems to get the toothpaste (Crest) treatment a bit too often, for my taste. Heck, Lynn D.'s name isn't misspelled nearly as frequently...

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## Timbofood

That's because it's "the Dude" man, there's a beverage here!
No worries, I am much like Norris from "The Big Sleep" 
Marlowe- "Oh, Norris you were mistaken, Mrs. Rutledge didn't want to see me."
Norris-"I make many mistakes, sir."

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## mrmando

> Steve is the only man on the planet that can do it right!


Well, all I can say is, Thank goodness for Gail Hester!

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## BradKlein

This can be a great thread. But not if we list every repair person who has worked on a Loar.  :Wink: 

Any other memories or info on this particular instrument? It's condition? History?

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Tom Sanderson

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## Willie Poole

Remember about two years ago when a few luthiers worked on and restored an A model Gibson that was ready to be trashed and it came out looking like new, they passed it around and each one did a different chore on it so I am sure there is probably a few people that could handle the job, but Steve is certainly the top choice for this project to do the whole thing...

    Willie

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## Timbofood

When all is said and done, I am sure it will be a thing of beauty and joy to behold! I don't care who does it, at least in Steve's hands, it will get all the help it needs. Now, I am getting out of here so the man can work! :Grin:

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## Andrew B. Carlson

Dan Voight just posted a picture of Loar #1 on his instagram. 

https://instagram.com/p/8Gsl_2vpjv/

Dan, do you know any more details of this restoration?

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## Spruce

> Really? The only man on the planet that can do it right? That's awful. That means that when he is no longer doing repairs like this there will not be ANYONE else capable.

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f5joe, 

Timbofood

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## AlanN

Was at a b-day party for a picker friend last night. One of the guys there had recently attended a Monroe camp and Loar #1 was a topic of conversation there. Seems the mandolin top *requires* attention now, as the old repair gave way and it fell down.

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## Ken Waltham

Aahh. Well, this is one of the most important mandolin restorations in recent memory, barring 73987. I am so glad it is finally getting the attention it should have had a decade ago. I would love to play it and see it for a week or two!

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## Fretbear

> Seems the mandolin top *requires* attention now, as the old repair gave way and it fell down.


What a surprise, it looked so well done.......

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## hank

Pondering Dan Voight's Instagram post "#1. The mandolin that started it all" makes one wonder if any of the Luthiers involved in the project with Lloyd had children or grandchildren that might remember details of the collaboration.  Roger Siminoff has done a spectacular job of salvaging Lloyd and Bertha's world and sharing it with the rest of us but unfortunately details of the creation of the first F-5 is still obscure. Julius Bellson who wrote a book on Gibson in the 1970's or his descendants might be able to elaborate more on the project. Lewis A. Williams's(Lloyd's friend and original investor in Gibson) family may have stories to tell. Borrowing a few paragraphs from Roger's site the work of Albert Shutt most likely inspired many of the new F-5 design leading particulars.

"Loar was highly motivated by the work of the great violin makers and sought to include their features in the development of his fretted instruments. And, it was these features that made Loars fretted instruments outstanding. These included: fully graduated soundboards and backboards, a minimum-thickness area (today referred to as a recurve) around the entire soundboard, longitudinal tone bars, tap tuned body, f-holes, longer necks (i.e., access to a greater playable range of the fretboard) that connected to the body at the 15th fret, elevated fretboards (above the soundboard), ebony fretboard extender, increased neck pitch from 4° (of the F4) to 6° to achieve a 16° string break angle (over bridge), resonance tuning (sizing) of air chambers, and a classic Cremona finish. While all of these attributes are important, I believe his major contribution was the introduction of tap tuning. This process ensured the correct stiffness of the soundboards, backboards, and tone bars by tuning them to specific notes. Realizing that stiffness and pitch were inextricably related, tap tuning ensured reliable and repeatable construction from instrument to instrument. Further, the size of the f-holes was adjusted to tune the air chamber to a specific note. Here, Loar drew from both the great acoustical engineers of the day as well as from the much heralded violin makers. In his Physics of Music class at Northwestern University (1930-1943) Loar spoke of Stradivaris tuning process: His greatest improvement, and one which took much research to discover, was attuning the tops and back. He would set the pitch so that the front was a quarter of a tone higher [than the backboard]. This tuning feature, as adapted by Gibson under Loars guidance, is what sets these instruments apart today. It is also what made them difficult to produce in a manufacturing environment and ultimately lead to the demise of the tap tuning process at Gibson after Loars departure from the company at the end of 1924."

"It is important to note that Loar was not the first to suggest the use of f-holes, elevated fretboard extensions, and arched soundboards and backboards on mandolins. Another instrument designer named Albert Shutt of Topeka, Kansas filed for a patent that claimed these features on December 6, 1909 and was granted U.S. Design Patent 40,564 on March 8, 1910  a patent that had a life span of seven years. In essence, these features were on the market and accessible to the public long before the development of Gibsons F5 mandolin, and it meant that Gibson could begin using these features on mandolins, mandolas, and guitars as early as 1917 when Shutts seven-year patent expired. While we know nothing of the relationship between Gibson, Loar, and Shutt  if any  it begs the question of just how many of these ideas came directly from Loar and how many were borrowed from Shutt. Regardless, Gibson was a well-established instrument company and had the manufacturing and marketing muscle to include these features in their instruments to expand its mandolin and guitar business."

http://siminoff.net/loar-background/

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Kennyz55, 

Mando-Mauler

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## goaty76

Hank,

I have had the same thoughts in the past.  Here's part of a post I wrote on another forum with regards to the above picture.

"This picture was featured in Bellson's book The Gibson Story and was captioned as "Corner of the Experimental Laboratory".  If a company has an experimental laboratory then research and documentation along with it must be taking place.  Was all this lost?  Did some leave with Loar when he left the company?  Do members of his family (or other's who left Gibson at the time) have any of his notes and does anyone have contact with them?  I know it's a lot of probably unanswerable questions but finding some info could lead to how the development of the 5 series evolved. "

Phil

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hank

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## Tom Sanderson

> Steve is the only man on the planet that can do it right!


I totally disagree. Mike Kemnitzer (Nugget) could handle it.

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## Jeff Mando

Many, many people are qualified to do a proper repair.  In this case, it is more of a "pedigree" type of thing for purpose of resale.  Best would be if it didn't need repair, of course.  Second best, would to have been repaired by someone world famous in the field, such as Gilchrist, and can be advertised as such.  In a weird way, it becomes a selling point.

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doc holiday, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Mando-Mauler, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

Timbofood

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## Ken Waltham

> Many, many people are qualified to do a proper repair.  In this case, it is more of a "pedigree" type of thing for purpose of resale.  Best would be if it didn't need repair, of course.  Second best, would to have been repaired by someone world famous in the field, such as Gilchrist, and can be advertised as such.  In a weird way, it becomes a selling point.


Somebody gets it.

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Bernie Daniel, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Mando-Mauler, 

Timbofood

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## Andrew B. Carlson

It's still at CVG. They posted a photo on their Facebook page of Steve G. and Chris Thile studying it.

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Andrew above - "..... Steve G. and Chris Thile studying it." That makes one wonder !,
                                                                                                                                   Ivan

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## kudzugypsy

i wonder if he can somehow save the 'good half' of the top - that would be the true test of a luthiers skill. to be able to bookmatch up a new half - org finish and all. my uneducated guess is this will end up being a 3 piece top.

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## Bill Snyder

Well he can't bookmatch it. That can only be done with the original wood when it is resawn and opened like a book. Hence the "bookmatch" designation.

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## Bernie Daniel

> It's still at CVG. They posted a photo on their Facebook page of Steve G. and Chris Thile studying it.


Anyone have a link to that?  :Smile:

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## Andrew B. Carlson

https://m.facebook.com/CarterVintage...10123&__tn__=E

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Bernie Daniel

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## FPhil

For the non-Facebookers:

Attachment 139268

Carter Vintage Guitars
28 september ·  

Mandolin Summit last night---- Stephen Gilchrist and Chris Thile looking at the very first signed Loar F-5.  by Carter Vintage Guitars.

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## JFDilmando

attachment 139268 does not work

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## Andrew B. Carlson



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## gh_mando

There is a youtube video of the Dawg playing this loar. 
https://youtu.be/jYVpR6ApHd8

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AlanN, 

Bob Bass, 

BradKlein, 

Flame Maple, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Glassweb, 

hank, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Mark Wilson

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## vates

Cute  :Smile:

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## lenf12

That mandolin sounds great in Dawg's hands. Thanks for posting the vid.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## f5loar

I remember each time I got to play this one (back in the 80's) I would think, damn what a fine sounding Loar and think what a shame the top is this damaged.  What I remember back then is this one never really had a proper set-up by anyone who could set up today (like Gil, Dude, etc).  Tony Williamson lived near this one so he likely knows more about it than anyone.  It's really magical and oh so unique in the world of Loars.

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Another pic and Paul Duff's assessment: http://www.duffmandolins.com/whats_on_bench.htm

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Bob Bass, 

f5joe, 

Flame Maple, 

FLATROCK HILL

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## Glassweb

> Another pic and Paul Duff's assessment: http://www.duffmandolins.com/whats_on_bench.htm


i can't say i agree with Paul's comment about the back plate "button" being that of an F4. to me it more resembles the buttons circa the July 9th batch. F4 buttons from that era and before were quite pointed. anyone else have thoughts on this... Tom, Ken?

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## Hendrik Ahrend

> i can't say i agree with Paul's comment about the back plate "button" being that of an F4. to me it more resembles the buttons circa the July 9th batch. F4 buttons from that era and before were quite pointed. anyone else have thoughts on this... Tom, Ken?


I guess you're right. However, that button is at least unique. It does seem a bit pointed, and there is that ridge you won't find on other F5s - I believe.

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## Ken Waltham

Yeah, Glassweb, I can see it both ways. It is kinda pointy, and with a pronounced ridge, like Henry says.
My own July 9 had a small button, quite flat as I recall. To some degree, all the back buttons were slightly different on my Loars, but, as you say, none were like a Loar period F4. After the Loar period, the buttons become much more like an F5.. that is the F4 buttons. I have two here now that show this.

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## kymandolin29

wonder why there aint no F-5 fernal?

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## Mando-Mauler

Yeah - this attachment doesn't bloody work. Lay another one on us.

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## mandotool

Here's a couple photos of #1 Loar's arrival at Carter's..
and 1 photo from Monroecamp/2015

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FLATROCK HILL, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

vates

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## Timbofood

I must be missing something, I have not seen anything saying that this has gone to the shop or if it's still waiting. Maybe I'm just missing the chronology of some of these pictures.

I have been told that I live under a rock though.

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## Josh Levine

Have ya'll seen this? Incredible tone coming out of that thing.

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billhay4, 

Bob Bass, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

George R. Lane, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

John Soper, 

Masterbilt, 

Tavy, 

Timbofood, 

Tobin, 

Vernon Hughes

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## vates

Pure magic.

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## Tobin

Dang, that did sound great.  And an excellent choice for a tune to demonstrate on!  Old Ebeenezer is one of my favorites for bringing out a good old traditional Monroe-ish mandolin sound.

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## mtucker

still needs more spankin'...  :Laughing:

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## f5loar

Good to hear the No. 1 Loar is remaining in North Carolina.  I got to see the photos of the restoration and must say Gilchrist did a remarkable and beautiful restoration of this fine Loar.  And as I suspected, with the proper set-up (and repair of the damaged top) it is indeed one of the finest of all the signed F5s.

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## JAK

Does refinishing it take away from, add to, or keep it the same regarding its value?

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## Ivan Kelsall

From JAK - _"Does refinishing it take away from, add to, or keep it the same regarding its value ?."_ . Well,these pics.should answer your question. This is what it looked like pre. & post gluing - photos.courtesy of Steve Gilchrist,
                                                                                                                                          Ivan :Wink:

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## JAK

Yep Ivan, in this case a picture is worth more than a thousand words. Thanks.

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## f5loar

No question, the value increased after this restoration.  How much?  It would have at least put it into the price range of a refinished Loar.

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## Jeff Mando

Being the "first" Loar is a pretty good selling point, as well!

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## AlanN

> No question, the value increased after this restoration.  How much?  It would have at least put it into the price range of a refinished Loar.


+ $$

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## Tobin

I'm not up on my Loar history.  Is this one truly documented as the absolute first Loar F5 prototype?  Or is it just the earliest surviving example that we know of?

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## PVia

If it's structurally stable, I'd play this instrument as-is, no restoration...it sounds great!

Carter's has another Loar, known as the drunken Loar with a big, not-well-repaired crack in the back as well as a dubious refi from the Gibson factory. It sounds amazing and is 75k...great video of Sierra Hull playing it, and over on YT a video of Andy Leftwich with it. 

I've been tempted by this one many times...

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## Hendrik Ahrend

> I'm not up on my Loar history.  Is this one truly documented as the absolute first Loar F5 prototype?  Or is it just the earliest surviving example that we know of?


#70281 is the earliest Loar accounted for. It may well be a prototype, as several features are different from all later F5s, such as binding, tuner placement, pick guard bracket and shape of braces. At some point, an earlier Loar may have existed, though. "#70279" is inscribed on a pick guard, which is installed on a July 9th '23 F5.

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Rush Burkhardt, 

Timbofood

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## Darryl Wolfe

> I'm not up on my Loar history.  Is this one truly documented as the absolute first Loar F5 prototype?  Or is it just the earliest surviving example that we know of?


Henry is correct.  I have been documenting Loars for nearly 40 years.   This mandolin is the only known June 1, 1922 mandolin and that is 5 months before any other Loars.  Essentially, there are no stand alone known Loars on a particular date other than this one, and it is indeed the earliest documented one.

So, at minimum it is "the prototype" or one of 3-4 prototypes of which none of the others has appeared.  At this time in my documentation efforts, I find it quite unlikely that more than one other will ever appear...if that

The only real aching factor is the first Loar depicted in a Catalog.  It had a fern inlay and possibly could have been one of the other two.  Many of us think that mandolin could be out there.

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DataNick, 

f5joe

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## Oliver A.

> The only real aching factor is the first Loar depicted in a Catalog.  It had a fern inlay and possibly could have been one of the other two.  Many of us think that mandolin could be out there.


When was that first depiction of a Loar first issued? If it was in '22, then there is a better chance that the depicted instrument does or did, indeed exist as a prototype. If the catalog came out later, it might just be a depiction of a later model.

On another note, no one has mentioned the binding on this instrument. In the photos, it appears as though it is very discolored or it is something other than ivoroid. It appears to have dark streaks/blotches in it.

On still another note, the owner of this mandolin was probably very wise to have Steve Gilchrist restore this instrument. While other luthiers could have pulled it off (non better though) Steve has the proper credentials to impart the most value to this instrument. I'd say that if the owner paid "fair market value" (whatever that is) he probably increased the mandolin's value by more than the cost of the repairs. I think also that the vast majority of Loar fans much prefer to see this restoration done. That first repair was a grotesque crime against instrument history! There was nothing original or endearing about that botched repair and so undoing it and performing a real repair of the highest quality can only improve the mandolin in every way.

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## Timbofood

There's "repair" and there is restoration. Clearly, Mr. Gilchrist understands the difference.
Many luthiers may posses the skill to have done this project, but, when the subject of the restoration is so important (to us) the best choice was made by the owner! 
I love this stuff!

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## Hendrik Ahrend

> When was that first depiction of a Loar first issued? If it was in '22, then there is a better chance that the depicted instrument does or did, indeed exist as a prototype. If the catalog came out later, it might just be a depiction of a later model.


The first color F5 ad was published in "The Cadenza" in March 1923 in form of a two-page ad they called "The Gibsonite". Probably published around the same time, an F5 sales folder ("The Gibson Master Mandolin" with Loar's essay "A talk about tone" on the back side) showed the same pics. We see the F5 with older style wiggle end tuners angling towards each other at the top, never seen on a Loar in this combination as of yet, possibly because the older tuners didn't have long enough tuner shafts. Apart from that, this F5 looked quite normal and non-proto, except that this tuner pattern (narrowing at the top that is) didn't appear before #72361, signed March 8 1923; but that's a different mandolin. And of course, this thread's #70281, the first known Loar, also has this otherwise later tuner pattern.
The same "photo", this time in b/w, appeared in the July 1923 issue of "The Cadenza".
According to MV member Paul Fox, Cat. "N" was published not before December 1923. At least the side and back views in Cat "N" show the very same mando as in the Cadenza pics, except that the tuners were now of the modern arrow-end style, apparently manally edited. The front shot (taken from pretty much exactly the same angle as the Cadenza pic), however, shows some similarities and some differences, such as b/i body binding (instead of the usual w/b/i), a unique pg-bracket and the Fern inlay pattern.
Apart from the tuners, the Fern inlay looks pretty much, as if it was manually filled in. Since the only known proto type as of yet, #70281, also has this black/ivoroid binding and a unique pg-bracket (though different from the Cat. "N" pic), the problem is, how much in those pics was edited anyway.
Which is why it's not at all clear, whether another proto type ever existed. Clear as mud?

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Darryl Wolfe, 

hank, 

Oliver A.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Yes, Henry...I agree.  all of these appear to be edited artwork.  I do have a Cadenza two-page ad that is in color.  I do not know the date.  But the photo is as you describe with canted wriggle end tuners

I agree that Catalog N is later '23.  I always figured that the fern shown in Cat N was the original intent for the Loar.  But when you take the Cadenza photos, the brochure photos into account....that does get murky quickly.  Especially now that the signed July '23 fern Loar has surfaced.

Interestingly enough, the tri-fold brochure has those Feb '23 labels depicted.  So even that could not be any earlier than say March of '23 or after

A person would also have to consider how long Cat N took to produce.  At that rate, the artwork could in fact be earlier than the other published artwork

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Absolutely. I've always thought of b/w/i binding as worthy to be featured. So why would one fill in nice Fern inlay, but photoshop b/i binding?

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## Spruce

Some great pics of the restoration in the new Fretboard Journal, including an amazing shot of the exposed offset dovetail...
Check this out...you can see how the whole neck was moved over about 3-4 mm or so...
Pretty cool...

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FLATROCK HILL, 

hank, 

RichieK, 

vates

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## f5loar

The 2nd ad was this one, also in color and was a full page ad.  Gibson did some serious ads for the new F5.

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hank

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## f5loar

I was able to get to play the newly restored June 1, 1922 Loar and must say it is one great sounding Loar.  I'd sure put it in the top 10 of the best ones out there, maybe even top 5.  The restoration to the top and the overall instrument was superb.  It's good to know this rare Loar is still out there making a gypsy cry.

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FLATROCK HILL, 

Glassweb, 

hank, 

jasona, 

RichieK, 

Spruce, 

Timbofood

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## re simmers

The article and picture shows that the top was in bad shape, but Steve didn't add or replace any wood.   It says he used glue and saw dust.   Anyone know - How big was the space, and what kind of glue?   

Thanks
Bob

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## JAK

Pretty sure it wasn't Elmer's Glue.

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## Jeff Mando

> Pretty sure it wasn't Elmer's Glue.


And the finest quality 100-year old vintage sawdust!  :Grin:

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## re simmers

🤓  just wondering about area.   Seemed like a pretty large are for sawdust and glue.

- - - Updated - - -

🤓  just wondering about area.   Seemed like a pretty large area for sawdust and glue.

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## Spruce

> Seemed like a pretty large area for sawdust and glue.


...or Bondo...    :Wink:

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## lenf12

I haven't yet heard a "Bondo" mandolin but who knows, it could be pretty good, especially if it's signed by Lloyd Loar.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## BradKlein

Gilchrist and FBJ have provided a perfect how-to manual to guide you in the repair of this Kentucky KM1000.

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