# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Mandolin orchestra repertoire: time capsule or living organism?

## mrmando

Had a very interesting chat with a person who no longer plays mandolin for medical reasons, but is sort of an elder statesman of the classical mandolin scene in Seattle. 

He's of the opinion that mandolin orchestras, rather than adapting works originally composed for other instruments, should stick to works written for mandolin orchestra, by which he means Golden Age material ... at least the pop stuff if we don't have the chops for Munier and Calace. He believes this not only is the right thing to do musically, but will help orchestras attract and retain members.

We have a ton of Golden Age stuff in our library, and we do play some of it. But: 

1) Tastes have changed. A lot of Golden Age compositions are pretty cheesy by modern standards. 

2) Plenty of great music was written before and after the Golden Age. It seems incredibly artificial to confine yourself to works written only in a 40-year period that ended 90 years ago and grows more distant every year. The few people who would pay to hear that music and no other are probably already playing in the orchestra, or too old to come to a concert. Guys like Goichberg and D'Alton sought to prove that the mandolin was a legitimate classical instrument, and they didn't do it by sticking strictly to Golden Age material.

3) What's helped us with member attraction/retention, it seems to me, has been our recent emphasis on looking beyond the Golden Age, in both directions, for other material. 

Thoughts?

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## Jim Garber

Sure, play some of the oldy moldy stuff, but even some of those orchestras like the New York one I was in, I believe never played even Calace or Munier. I was librarian for NYMO back in the 1980s and I don't recall seeing any of the "Golden Age" stuff and we certainly did not play it when I was in the orchestra (about 7 years). 

I think there should be some anchors to the past but some look to the future. There are composers among the community, many of whom are involved in this site: Victor Kioulaphides, John Craton, John Goodin, and others who are composing more modern pieces for mandolin orchestras.

I suppose there is that same question among even the std orchestras these days tho they have a larger body of work from which to choose. In any case, NYMO, when i was there performed a nice variety of pieces, many from the string orchestra repertoire, notably, Iphigenia in Aulis by Gluck; Britten's Simple Symphony; Barber's Adagio for Strings; some Mozart and Handel's Water Music arranged for mandolin orchestra with a concertina quartet playing the wind parts.

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## DougC

Jim is right. There is a lot of nice string orchestra material out there. 

I think the notion from the retired player is that a lot of music is pretty bad. There are two factors in my humble opinion. One is just poor taste. And two is that plucked instruments can't really articulate all of the sounds that orchestras or pop music groups do.

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## mrmando

Thanks Jim. I've been wondering how the Britten would sound with mandolins ... the pizzicato movement should be no trouble at all! I've heard a recording of the Barber by a mandolin orchestra and wasn't entirely convinced that it was a good idea, but that doesn't mean it wasn't worth a try. 

Doug, I'm not sure what your point is. It actually is possible to do a substantial amount of ornamentation/articulation on a mandolin -- maybe not EVERYTHING a violin can do, but most of it. However, it requires advanced right-hand technique that the average amateur player (e.g., me) doesn't have. Maybe that's why I play mandocello.

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## margora

"Had a very interesting chat with a person who no longer plays mandolin for medical reasons, but is sort of an elder statesman of the classical mandolin scene in Seattle. 

He's of the opinion that mandolin orchestras, rather than adapting works originally composed for other instruments, should stick to works written for mandolin orchestra, by which he means Golden Age material ... at least the pop stuff if we don't have the chops for Munier and Calace. He believes this not only is the right thing to do musically, but will help orchestras attract and retain members."

This being the United States, everyone is entitled to their opinion, including your "elder statesman".   However -- and I am being polite -- that notion that mandolin ensembles should stick to so-called American "Golden Age" material is totally ludicrous.   While a small percentage of this material is musically worthwhile and certainly can be played to a high standard (by, for example, the Milwaukee group), most of it is musical garbage or worse (i.e. racist, being derived from minstrelsy).  Calace's small output of works for mandolin ensemble (e.g. his "Oriental Impressions") are certainly worth playing from time to time, but only from time to time.

Currently, the Providence Mandolin Orchestra, of which I am a long-standing member, plays none of this music (with the very occasional exception of Calace) and I doubt we ever well, under the present director (Mark Davis).   If we did, I would quit the next day.

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## Marty Jacobson

I can't comment on the mandolin orchestra material, as I have only spent a year or so as a part of an orchestra. Bob and Barbara Knysz have a good repertoire and really did (do?) a good job of keeping the "mandolin orchestra" flavor and including some more modern flavored pieces in there, to boot. _Tango Infernal_ was a blast!

But you guys got me thinking how cool it would be to do Mozart's Quartet #19 (_Dissonance_ ) or the Ravel F major as a mandolin quartet. I think they would both work quite well, and might be OK in an orchestra setting, too.

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## mrmando

> Currently, the Providence Mandolin Orchestra, of which I am a long-standing member, plays none of this music (with the very occasional exception of Calace) and I doubt we ever well, under the present director (Mark Davis).   If we did, I would quit the next day.


Just for clarification, Bob -- you'd quit if the PMO programmed ANY Golden Age music? Even some of the small percentage that is musically worthwhile and can be played to a high standard? 

I'm not _that_ radically opposed, but I would certainly lose interest if we decided to switch to all Golden Age all the time as my friend thinks we should.

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## Jim Garber

Bob's orchestra, The Providence Mandolin Orchestra, is one of the my absolute favorites. They take chances, play modern pieces or arrangements of older works -- Bob is one of their arrangers. I love the repertoire. I don't think that there is a need for any mandolin orchestra to play a fossilized repertoire at all.

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Bob Clark

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## Bob Clark

> Bob's orchestra, The Providence Mandolin Orchestra, is one of the my absolute favorites. They take chances, play modern pieces or arrangements of older works -- Bob is one of their arrangers. I love the repertoire. I don't think that there is a need for any mandolin orchestra to play a fossilized repertoire at all.


I agree with Jim.  There is so much great music out there, why should mandolin orchestras have to limit themselves?

Last summer, I attended a performance of the Philadelphia Mandolin and Guitar Ensemble in a tiny neighborhood park in South Philly.  They played a really great concert.  The park was filled with people ranging from newborns to octogenarians (at least) representing the full range of social, economic and ethnic strata.  Everyone was having a great time.  People were eating, talking, laughing and even  playing bocce on an authentic court.  It seemed more like a scene from a movie showing what urban life could be, rather than life itself.  The music was the perfect soundtrack for the evening.  And that soundtrack included an eclectic array of music representing different eras and genres.  It really was the perfect summer evening in the city.

If the PMGE had limited their selections to a narrow slice of musical history, maybe the evening would have been as nice, but the music would not have been as integral a part of the evening.  As it was, it suited the audience and the ensemble perfectly.  

I don't believe that these wonderful instruments are nearly as limited as some among us seem to think they are.  I hope that our mandolin orchestras will never become stuck in amber like some prehistoric insect for if they do, they will surely become extinct. 

I love to listen to recordings of the Providence Mandolin Orchestra and hope they will continue to challenge themselves with their wide range of selections.  Some mandolin orchestras may want to specialize in one form of music and that's fine because there is certainly room for an array of orchestras.  But I hope we will have a broad array of orchestras to listen to and play in, as that diversity is what will keep mandolin orchestras alive.

Just my opinion.  Bob

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## Beanzy

I can't see how playing only music from this era or thereabouts is going to help membership.
I can't see how avoiding decent tunes from that era is going to help make the orchestra more appealing either.
Heck it's music, there's so much out there just pick the good stuff and play it.

MOOD is so new we're like kiddies at the cookie jar and just getting through and trying out tunes while building enough repertoire is a great journey. It helps having a musical director who's expertise is as an arranger, as Matt is always trying out ideas and arranges them for the level we're at. But even if you didn't have a clue about arranging you could still get hold of a ridiculous number of really good arrangements for orchestra just from your web-browser.

I really don't think the choice of one or two duff tunes here or there is going to have people staying at home. 
We just drop them if they don't fit or work as well as expected. After all why wear straightjackets if they're not in fashion? 

I think we learn from your old duffer is that people of all ages come out with some horse droppings and still expect the world to take them seriously. If there are problems with numbers then it's probably going to be something else wrong with the group.

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## Martin Jonas

I think this old thread is relevant to the current discussion:

Link

Our own list of tunes is heavy on the "Golden Era" material, mostly inherited but we also occasionally read through old material that I have stumbled across online -- mainly here on the Cafe or on the old Nakano site, or privately from other Cafe members -- and if we like it we may keep it, if not we throw them away.  Otherwise, we are fairly eclectic and try many tunes from sources other than the old mandolin orchestra repertoire, with the preference of most of my colleagues being on the lighter side and in the Italian repertoire (waltzes, mazurkas, Neapolitan songs etc).  But then again, we are more an informal practice group these days than a "proper" orchestra or ensemble, and as we don't have a musical director as such, more ambitious pieces are well out of our range, as are customised arrangements.

Martin

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## margora

"Just for clarification, Bob -- you'd quit if the PMO programmed ANY Golden Age music?"

On a one-off or occasional basis, I'm willing to play anything (especially if I am getting paid or if there is some other reason for being there, i.e. one of my arrangements is being performed).   If Carlo, etc. is coming to town, and wants to do some early 20th century Italian thing, that's cool.   If the PMO did a joint concert with the MMO, I'm sure we'd mix up the program and it would be fine.

At AMGUSS once, Marilyn programmed an arrangement by H. F. Odell of one of the Granados Spanish Dances.   This was published, I think, in 1919 or 1920, only a few years after Granados went down in the Lusitania.  It was quite a good arrangement and historically interesting to perform, given its proximity to the original.  Such material from the period is musically worthwhile but is very few and far between (in my experience thus far, the Odell is unique).

To clarify and answer the question, if the Golden Age were part of our regular repertoire and therefore inherent in the conception of the PMO, no way, I would be gone the next day.  

I don't know the "elder statesman" from Seattle personally but I infer, perhaps incorrectly, that he is unaware of the vast amount of music for mandolin ensemble written in recent decades, most of which originates outside the US.  If he is, and doesn't like it, that is one thing -- as I said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, this being the US.   But if he is not aware of it, then the opinion is ignorant.

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Jim Garber

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## mrmando

I think it's more a matter of taste than of awareness on his part ... he's at least somewhat aware of more recent developments in mandolin music, but prefers the older stuff. I can remember when our group had a heavier emphasis on old cheesy music ... we hardly had enough members to keep the group together. Repertoire wasn't the only reason for this, but I have to think it was a contributing factor.

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## Andy Boden

As a newcomer to the mandolin world (previously a violinist, guitarist and choral singer/conductor) I have only recently come across the mandolin repertoire which seems to be referred to as the 'Golden Age' .... Though I would agree that there is quite a lot which needs to fade away quietly into the mists of time I think there are a few I've come across which are worthy of resurrection........ and some of them are good for a laugh ! As a choral singer I really enjoy Bach's B minor Mass and Mozart's Requiem, but I can also find pleasure in Stainer's Crucifixion and Elgar's 'Bavarian Highlands' songs. I think there might be a risk of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

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## Jim Garber

I have a pretty large pile (or many piles) of sheet music from the period in question and yes, occasionally there is a baby that is quite nice but there are 1000 of gallons of bathwater.

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Andy Boden

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## margora

"I have a pretty large pile (or many piles) of sheet music from the period in question and yes, occasionally there is a baby that is quite nice but there are 1000 of gallons of bathwater."

LOL!

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Andy Boden

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## Jim Garber

babies & bathwater-----------wheat & chaff-----------needles & haystacks.......?

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## mrmando

Well, I guess we are going to take a look at one of the Troise & His Mandoliers scores that Martin posted in another thread ... I listened to the electronically generated tracks he also posted and I didn't think they sounded all that thrilling, but it might be a different story when played live.

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## Acquavella

Actually, I agree with the gentleman's original statement - "He's of the opinion that mandolin orchestras, rather than adapting works originally composed for other instruments, should stick to works written for mandolin orchestra" 

Full stop. I can't stand it when mandolin orchestras play symphonic orchestra repertoire. It just sounds awesome. Sometimes it has to be done when it comes to the baroque period. Take the Golden Era portion out of the previous comment and it becomes a valid argument. There are a few gems in the Golden Era but most are chessy and rubbish. IMHO. However, there are loads of original works for mandolin orchestra that need to be played and should become standard repertoire. I am not one who likes very avant garde contemporary music. There are loads of modern contemporary works that have following tonal melody lines, folk themes, beautiful tremolo passages, and big climatic endings. (Check out Mondonico, Paci, Bottochiari, Zambrano, Wolki, Brehrend). A lot of the pieces I am thinking are standard repertoire for orchestras in Europe. Some of the modern German & Japanese pieces are staggering. Huge is style, composition and orchestration. I would love to see all mandolin orchestras in America follow the PMO's lead and really "own & take charge" of our repertoire for mandolin orchestra. We (mandolin community) have some really cool stuff out there. I still love some of the cheesy Golden Era stuff from time to time..... it just warms the heart. 

There is another side of the argument as well. Most audience members, at this point in America, want to hear the cheesy Golden Era stuff (from my experience). It is what they assocciate the mandolin with. There needs to be a change in audience demographic (applies to symphony orchestras as well), where more contemporary & non-standard repertoire can be introduced, in hopes of becoming standard repertoire (Adams, Glass..???). How many orchestras this year are performing Beethoven 5, Mahler 4, Brahms 1, Tchaikovsky or some variation of that? It is hard to stick your neck out when money is already there for the standards. So I can also understand the arts management argument as well.  

I think it is great that people are just getting together and playing the mandolin. Whatever gets more people to do that - I am all for it! My hat goes off to all the folks at the Providence Mandolin Orchestra for doing their thing and the leading the way.

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## Martin Jonas

> Well, I guess we are going to take a look at one of the Troise & His Mandoliers scores that Martin posted in another thread ... I listened to the electronically generated tracks he also posted and I didn't think they sounded all that thrilling, but it might be a different story when played live.


Not me -- those tracks were posted by Andy (and I understand they were a mix of MIDI playbacks and his own emando overdubs).  Troise's outfit wasn't really a mandolin orchestra but rather a professional dance band, serving much the same audience in the UK as, for example, Dave Apollon or indeed Bob Wills did in the US.  Even then, this was quite a different demographic than the BMG amateur mandolin orchestras of the day.  For example, Troise was the single most frequently featured act on "Music While You Work", a radio show specifically designed to be piped into factories to keep the workers motivated -- Troise played that show an astonishing 476 times!

This may be a pointer that we're talking slightly at cross purposes, and another is Chris mentioning Wölki as an example of superior original repertoire preferable to "Golden Age" material.  Now, Konrad Wölki was very good, but he was a contemporary of Pasquale Troise or indeed of Johan Kok (who is the single most prominent composer in our own repertoire folder).  So, what precisely are we talking about when referring to the cheesy old repertoire?  I'm not too familiar with what the more traditional US mandolin orchestras are playing, but I suspect it may not be quite the same as the BMG repertoire that was (and to a considerable part still is) the bulk of what UK orchestras play.  From the lists posted in the old thread I had linked in my previous post it looks to me that the US orchestras have been playing a lot of ragtime.  I have to say that just about all the original rags I've looked at from the 1900-1920 era were indeed cringeworthy, so if that's the repertoire under discussion, I'd probably agree.  On the other hand, much of the circa 1930-1960 repertoire that I'm most familiar with -- Latin dances, Russian fantasies, Neapolitan pastiches, swing-era jazz -- is a lot of fun, if somewhat derivative.  This is from a player's perspective; we don't have an audience to start with, so don't need to worry too much about the audience expectations that Chris has mentioned.  For that matter, we don't have "arts management" either...

Martin

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## mrmando

> Full stop. I can't stand it when mandolin orchestras play symphonic orchestra repertoire. It just sounds awesome.


Hm. Another victim of auto-correct? 

I agree there's little point in trying to boil down a_ full-scale_ symphonic work for mandolin orchestra. But how about _string_ orchestra literature, e.g., the Jenkins "Palladio," or Britten's "Simple Symphony," as Jim suggested above? Re: the baroque material, we'll see what happens with our _Messiah_ experiment. It ain't your mama's _Messiah,_ for sure. 

We might have enough good players now to do justice to some of these contemporary works, so maybe I'll pursue this offline with you in a little more detail. You heard us at CMSA 2010 (didn't you?). At the time, that was one of the best shows we've ever played, but I'd say we're now able to play up to that standard consistently.




> So, what precisely are we talking about when referring to the cheesy old repertoire?


 Well, ironically, the one piece I remember my friend mentioning was Franz von Suppe's _Poet and Peasant Overture,_ which was originally a symphonic work. Judging from the pieces that have been in our library the longest, though, it means a lot of sentimental Neapolitan stuff, some William Zinn arrangements, and a little bit of Kok.

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## margora

"I agree there's little point in trying to boil down a full-scale symphonic work for mandolin orchestra. But how about string orchestra literature, e.g., the Jenkins "Palladio," or Britten's "Simple Symphony," as Jim suggested above?"

There is a long standing and eminent tradition in plucked strings of arranging material written originally for other, non-plucked instruments.   The classical guitar is the obvious example.    As Jim mentioned earlier, I do a lot of arranging of music for the PMO; these arrangements, however, tend to be modern Latin American (Jobim, Piazzolla, Gismonti) or modern pop (Beatles, etc.), although I have also arranged a fair amount of music from the 5 and 6-part viol consort repertoire (e.g. Dowland) which can work very well for mandolin orchestra.   The only string orchestra piece that I have arranged, and it was only a partial arrangement (i.e. certain parts) was the Brandenburg #3, which is often performed on plucked strings.

I think arrangements from the string orchestra repertoire can work for MO but one must pick the pieces EXTREMELY carefully.   Standards of performance of this music in the original form are obviously very high; performing a piece by Britten or Ginastera might make the musicians feel good about themselves but that is a poor reason to play something in public.  If one cannot play Mozart at least as well as your local college orchestra, one should not do Mozart on plucked strings just because you can.   Frankly, there are very (very) few mandolin ensembles in the world (note: I said the WORLD, not the US) that can do justice to such material at a reasonable professional level, i.e. beyond your local college orchestra (other than HET Consort, I am not sure there are any, although I am sure Chris A. can think of a couple of German groups).

The other major issue with string orchestra material, and it has come up before in this forum, has to do with the role of classical guitar in mandolin ensembles.   In the MO world outside the US, particularly in Germany and Australia, the guitar plays a central role.   This is also true in the PMO, but it is not generally the case in American ensembles -- a very, very unfortunate state of affairs, IMHO, and a situation that, frankly, puzzles me to no end.   The vast majority of repertoire that Chris Acquavella is referring to in his posting, and 100 percent of the repertoire performed by the PMO, requires the classical guitar.  In the Brandenburg, it is easy to include the guitar, because the original has 3 cello parts.   It is not so easy in traditional string orchestra material -- unless it is baroque, and there is a continuo part.   But then the arranger must know how to intrepret figured bass notation.

With regard to what constitutes "contemporary music" for mandolin ensemble, I would basically say, anything more or less post WWII, of which there is a vast amount.    Chris mentions some of the relevant people in his posting, but that is the tip of the iceberg.   I am in the early stages of planning another CMSA workshop, this one focusing on said modern repertoire.   From this discussion, it would seem there will be demand for the workshop.

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## margora

"Well, ironically, the one piece I remember my friend mentioning was Franz von Suppe's Poet and Peasant Overture, which was originally a symphonic work."

This particular piece of fluff was played innumerable times -- and I am sure, quite badly most of the time -- by mandolin ensembles and other plucked agglomerations in the early 20th century.   I think Dave Apollon and one of his vaudeville groups played it (there may be a movie of this, I am not sure).  Apollon notwithstanding -- and to be clear, I love Dave Apollon -- no reason to revive it now.

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## mrmando

Fortunately we have finally managed to attract a guitarist, and we have a couple of other folks who can switch to guitar if the occasion demands it. So we may have the personnel to tackle a guitar-dependent work. 

I agree with Bob about the P&P; I checked out a YouTube recording and didn't find anything the least bit compelling about it.

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## Eugene

A lively discussion.  I like much of what you've stated, Herr Acquavella, but feel obliged to add that not all golden era repertoire for mandolin orchestra is cheese . . . Or some of it is at least more substantial cheese than the individually cellophane-wrapped American variety.  The golden-era rep has a legitimate place in the history of the instrument and should no more be shunned or denied than it should be exclusive to modern performance.

I like the transcription/arrangement discussion arising.  I went on periodic internet rants regarding transcription several years ago.  Those rants were guitar-centric, but the general concepts apply here.  Here is one of those rants in its entirety to do with whatever you see fit:




> I'm going to stick my neck out with a little online rant.  I don't want to give the wrong impression; I love transcription: love to hear it live or recorded, occasionally play it . . .  Good transcription sounds pleasant and is rightfully marketable to a general audience that probably isn't familiar with obscure guitar or mandolin music.  The best transcription results from personal effort by technically brilliant artists.  Yama####a on Mussorgsky, Fisk on Paganini, Hii on Bach, Stauffer on Grieg . . . noisy, gaudy, flashy, bombastic, sometimes tasteless, but often great fun: who else could take these things and own them as these artists have?
> 
> My frustration is that transcription of music for instruments that are completely dissimilar to the guitar has become the standard repertoire of guitarists.  For example, consider the piano works of Albeniz and Granados, the violin and cello works of Bach, etc.  Music conceived for guitar and its earlier incarnations is relatively neglected by guitarists and, to some extent in some cases, relatively unknown.  I know of no other instrument whose practitioners so eagerly and lovingly embrace transcriptions as the standard repertoire of their own instrument.
> 
> One could argue that the guitar we know is a relatively modern invention, that the guitar music of earlier times is not sufficiently suited to the modern instrument.  The piano came to be around the same time as the 6-string guitar, and its evolution can be considered roughly parallel.  Still, the standard repertoire of pianists is piano music or that of its earlier keyboard relatives (like harpsichord and organ), not lute or orchestral music in transcription.  Transcription, of course, occurs in piano repertoire and is more great fun (e.g., Liszt's orchestral and song transcriptions), but transcription does not dominate the piano's standard repertoire.
> 
> Outside of de Visee's suite in d minor and a few miniatures by Sanz, it is rather rare to hear a modern guitarist perform music composed for guitar in the baroque era.  Until very recently, it was even rarer for guitarists to play post-Sor romantic-era music for guitar.  The recent rediscovery of Regondi and Mertz is a breath of fresh air in this regard.
> 
> Why?  My own belief is that guitarists have lived in Segovia's shadow for a very long time.  The standard repertoire of the last generation was shaped by his tastes, and we are only now beginning to rediscover the land outside Segovia's shadow.  He disliked the showy, virtuosic guitar repertoire of the romantic and post-romantic era [of course, late in this span is where the mandolin's last "golden era" came to pass], so he shunned it to create a romantic repertoire for modern guitar through transcription, even denying any romantic literature of merit existed for guitar.  Romantic guitar music is as flashy and shallow as romantic violin repertoire, but violinists embrace Sarasate without shame.  Evidently, Segovia didn't like baroque guitar music or didn't want to deal with an odd notation system, expanding the baroque guitar's relatively narrow chord voicings, or an old-fashioned and alien rasgueado technique that evolved around an alien guitar, so he created a baroque repertoire for modern guitar through transcription as well.
> ...

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## Eugene

Sorry.  The filters evidently don't like the name "Yamash'ta," poor guy.

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## Beanzy

As we're drifting over to talking about arrangements, I'm poking about in my old Chamber Music collection and finding a few possibilities from the Quartet music. I've a whole series of Chamber Music Method For Strings which may be a good source to base arrangements on. 
Does anyone on here use Quartet / Quintet pieces and re-arrange them? I'm wondering if they translate ok or if things tend get a bit full and wash out in a wall of noise when scaled up to an amateur orchestra situation.

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## Jim Garber

Some quartets are more difficult than orchestra pieces. I have attempted a few transcriptions from keyboard works with varying success.

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## Acquavella

Eugene - please re-read my post. I did say that I liked some of the Golden Era stuff. Most of it just isn't worth mentioning or playing as standard rep. I am always interested in including a piece or two from that era in a concert program. When it gets beyond that and turns into an entire concert of Golden Era pieces from no-name composers, it just gets a bit tiresome. 

Martin - yeah I meant to say aweful. 

Robert - Palladio is a perfect example. The violin string parts don't really work that well on the mandolin (at least not as good as on the instrument it was composed for). When NEMO performed Palladio last season, we used an arrangement by Alex Timmerman. Everything fit perfectly on the mandolin and piece had depth & strength on mandolins. I totally agree with your sentiment of selection. I think that if an orchestra wants to play string arrangements, they really do need to choose wisely and rearrange to fit the texture and sonority of the mandolin. The last thing a mandolin orchestra should do is play Beethoven 5 just for the sake of playing something popular. I heard a mandolin orchestra play Beethoven 5 - it definitely was NOT awesome. Didn't come close to capturing the passion or depth of the original work. Stuff like that doesn't do classical mandolin music, classical symphonic music and mandolin orchestra popularity any favours. 

There are so many post WWII mandolin orchestra pieces that have loads of substance, depth and passion that can win over any audience. There are a lot that are accessible for almost any orchestra. The research just needs to be done. I personally try to buy a lot of European mandolin orchestra CDs, mostly from German orchestras, but also from Italy and Japan. I get exposed to a lot of new music. I then listen to the cds while I am searching through Trekel. Then I try to find stuff that has never been recorded and that finishes off the concert program. I have really been enjoying that aspect of being a music director. The research and hope of finding something new that not only excites the audience but also the audience.

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Jim Garber, 

Rick Schneider

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## Eugene

Yeah, I did get the full, Chris, and should have been a little more careful in typing my own reply.  Cheers!

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## margora

"I am not one who likes very avant garde contemporary music. [C. Acquavella]"

I have, as yet, two unfulfilled programming ambitions for the PMO.   The first is to play an all avante-garde concert, but especially two pieces by Siegfried Behrend, "Requiem for Hiroshima" and "Conserere", both of which feature aleatoric sections and have graphic notation ("Conserere" is a concerto for classical guitar and mandolin orchestra written, oddly enough considering the music, as an homage to Segovia).   I think the odds of this happening are zero.   Mark Davis likes this kind of stuff as much as I do, but we do need to have an audience of at least 1-2, which is the difficult part.

The other is an entire concert devoted to modern pop and rock arrangements.   Thus far I've done multiple Beatles (e.g. most of the Sgt. Pepper's album), Steely Dan ("Aja"), CSNY ("Wooden Ships"), Beach Boys ("Good Vibrations"), and I am working on Fleetwood Mac ("The Chain"), Frank Zappa ("Peaches en Regalia"), and Radiohead ("2 + 2 = 5").   Somewhat more likely than ambition #1, but not on the horizon currently or the foreseeable future.

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## Bob Clark

> "I am not one who likes very avant garde contemporary music. [C. Acquavella]"
> 
> I have, as yet, two unfulfilled programming ambitions for the PMO.   The first is to play an all avante-garde concert, but especially two pieces by Siegfried Behrend, "Requiem for Hiroshima" and "Conserere", both of which feature aleatoric sections and have graphic notation ("Conserere" is a concerto for classical guitar and mandolin orchestra written, oddly enough considering the music, as an homage to Segovia).   I think the odds of this happening are zero.   Mark Davis likes this kind of stuff as much as I do, but we do need to have an audience of at least 1-2, which is the difficult part.
> 
> The other is an entire concert devoted to modern pop and rock arrangements.   Thus far I've done multiple Beatles (e.g. most of the Sgt. Pepper's album), Steely Dan ("Aja"), CSNY ("Wooden Ships"), Beach Boys ("Good Vibrations"), and I am working on Fleetwood Mac ("The Chain"), Frank Zappa ("Peaches en Regalia"), and Radiohead ("2 + 2 = 5").   Somewhat more likely than ambition #1, but not on the horizon currently or the foreseeable future.


Each of the concerts you suggest sound interesting to me.  As for the pop and rock arrangements, how about Cat Stevens'_ Sad Lisa_?  That is a song which, to my ears, cries out for a mandolin orchestra arrangement.  I'd love to hear PMO do that one!

If you do either of these concerts, I'll try to make it up to RI for the concert.  I'll be one of the people in your small audience, and I'll be easy to pick out...I'll be the one applauding wildly!

Bob

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## margora

"Robert - Palladio is a perfect example. The violin string parts don't really work that well on the mandolin (at least not as good as on the instrument it was composed for). When NEMO performed Palladio last season, we used an arrangement by Alex Timmerman. Everything fit perfectly on the mandolin and piece had depth & strength on mandolins."

The PMO has played Alex's arrangement of this piece more times than I can remember.   There are other MO versions of Palladio but these are quite similar in structure/design to Alex's.   He's an excellent arranger for plucked strings.

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, Bob, for my new vocabulary word of the day... aleatoric!

From Wikipedia:


> Aleatoric music (also aleatory music or chance music; from the Latin word alea, meaning "dice") is music in which some element of the composition is left to chance, and/or some primary element of a composed work's realization is left to the determination of its performer(s). The term is most often associated with procedures in which the chance element involves a relatively limited number of possibilities.


I love to hear new sounds coming from mandolin orchestras. I know some of those avant-garde pieces have some teeth-grinding potential to some people (even me, depending on the piece). But we need to move on and try new things esp if they work on our beloved mandolin family and guitars. I think the big barrier for many orchestras is the limited capability of some of its members. Man, I don't know what it looks like but i am not sure I can read from a graphic score.

In any case, keep up the good work.

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## margora

Here is a brief description of graphic notation:

http://soundsandvisions.wikispaces.com/Graphic+Notation

The Youtube video of the Cornelius Cardew piece is a good illustration of how such a piece might be performed.

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## Jim Garber

Fun, Bob. Have you played many of those? Does that type of notation leave room for more individualistic interpretation. In other words would each performance depend on how each musician would interpret that graphic? Are there actual notes indicated anywhere?

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## margora

"Does that type of notation leave room for more individualistic interpretation. In other words would each performance depend on how each musician would interpret that graphic? Are there actual notes indicated anywhere?"

Yes, graphic notation allows for a considerable amount of individual interpretation, and each performance would presumably vary, even if performed by the same person.   The use of actual notes varies with the piece -- sometimes yes, sometimes no, but typically not tha much, mostly symbols and directions.   Graphic notation was very popular in the 1960s-70s; composers that used it, such as Cardew or Christian Wolff, claimed that it was not free improvisation in the extreme, performers had to do some preparation in advance.   My recollection is that on one of Leo Brouwer's early recordings on classical guitar there is a piece by Cardew, and some middle period Brouwer (such as La Espiral Eterna) requires improvisation on the performer's part.   (An aside; Brouwer, incidentally, has apparently just written an extended sonata for solo bandurria).

Reginald Smith Brindle's book on the post-1945 avant-garde in music (available in paperbook, or at least it was, I have a copy) is an excellent introduction to the music of this type and related forms.

Aleatoric is a bit different, in my experience, this usually involves some actual notes, or harmonic structure, from which the performer fashions an improvised section.   Not long ago the PMO played a piece by a New Zealand composer (I forget the name, I am at work) that had some aleatoric passages.

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Jim Garber

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, Bob. This is all very interesting. Would you consider Terry Riley in C to be aleatoric?

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## margora

"Would you consider Terry Riley in C to be aleatoric?"

Not really because while the number of times each player repeats a phrase is not pre-determined (i.e. it is up to each performer, and therefore improvised) the notes themselves are pre-determined.

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## Jim Garber

Semi-aleatoric?  :Smile:

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## margora

"Semi-aleatoric? "

Close enough.

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## Jim Garber

Sounds like something from Jurassic Park.

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## Pasha Alden

Some interesting thought there.  I have to say as a mandolin beginner the one thing that brought me to the mandolin was not the music by Vivaldi and others perhaps those of the golden age.  It was a plethora of tiny bits of mando used in main stream songs.  By that I must say I am an absolute fan of the music written in the golden age.  Though I think there is nothing wrong with straying from that path of bread crumbs if it leads to greater musical reward.

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## Pasha Alden

That sounds so interesting. Particularly your work on the Beatles and Fleetwood Mac music. 

Would love to hear when it is complete.  

I for one would not mind putting some of the rather poetic stuff by Sting to the strings of a mandolin.  Somehow it feels as if the mandolin would be able to make the transition.  Also would not mind trying things like "Crying in the rain" by the Everly Brothers.  I think more cross picking and tremmelo used sparingly could sound interesting?

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## Pasha Alden

Love that new word - see we don't even only learn about different arrangements but new words? <smile>

Regards Vanillamandolin

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## Pasha Alden

Adagio by Barber?  That must sound so different played on a mandolin.  Absolutely love that composition it is an all time favourite. Though it is quite fixed in my musical memory and ear. I once wrote an essay inspired by it.  That is how fixed it has become.  That is to say I really need to think hard to hear the mandolin.

Best Vanillamandolin

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## mrmando

> The other is an entire concert devoted to modern pop and rock arrangements.   Thus far I've done multiple Beatles (e.g. most of the Sgt. Pepper's album), Steely Dan ("Aja"), CSNY ("Wooden Ships"), Beach Boys ("Good Vibrations"), and I am working on Fleetwood Mac ("The Chain"), Frank Zappa ("Peaches en Regalia"), and Radiohead ("2 + 2 = 5").   Somewhat more likely than ambition #1, but not on the horizon currently or the foreseeable future.


Bob -- what's the instrumentation? Would any of these work with a small ensemble? Believe it or not, we're getting booking interest from a local nightclub, which hasn't got room for the whole orchestra. Need to find some material that would be appropriate for the setting.

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## mrmando

> Adagio by Barber?  That must sound so different played on a mandolin.


Try this: 
http://www.oregonmandolinorchestra.o...-clips-new.php

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## margora

"Bob -- what's the instrumentation? Would any of these work with a small ensemble? Believe it or not, we're getting booking interest from a local nightclub, which hasn't got room for the whole orchestra. Need to find some material that would be appropriate for the setting."

All of my pop/rock arrangements are scored in five parts: mando #1, mando #2, mandola (in 8va treble), classical guitar, and bass/cello (either one).  The PMO has performed several of my Beatles arrangements (A Day in the Life, Blackbird, Penny Lane, I am the Walrus), so have several other groups (e.g. Dayton, NY Mandolin Ensemble).  Small ensemble is fine.   PM me.

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## margora

"I am always interested in including a piece or two from that era in a concert program. When it gets beyond that and turns into an entire concert of Golden Era pieces from no-name composers, it just gets a bit tiresome."

As Chris A's comments suggest, programming considerations are central to the whole issue.  

One approach to programming for plucked strings is a tour through the repertoire, sort of a busman's holiday.   This is the approach taken by, for example, Segovia on the classical guitar.   Segovia would open a concert with some transcriptions from the lute/vihuela repertoire (usually the latter), followed by some Bach, maybe some Sor or Aguado, followed by some original music for guitar written for him (Villa Lobos, Turina), ending with some Albeniz or Granados or similar.   The idea was to educate the audience and also make the point that the guitar could play "classical" music, just like the violin or the piano.

The tour through the repertoire approach has also been central to CMSA's efforts to revitalize the classical mandolin, specifically the En Masse Orchestra (Note: I have the highest respect for Jim Bates.   He is a fantastic musician and conductor).   The typical En Masse program includes something from the early 20th century; maybe a transcription/arrangement of a classical piece; a piece composed for the occasion; some modern work, often German (this year, both German and Australian).   Given the diversity of skills and experiences of CMSA convention participants and the goals of the organization, this makes perfect sense.

However, the tour through the repertoire approach has been almost completely abandoned in the classical guitar world for much more focused, specialized programming -- all to the good, in my opinion.   This started happening in the 1970s -- when, for example, John Williams started giving entire recitals (in Paris, among other places) of Barrios.  In short, hardly anyone in the guitar world follows the Segovia model, and hasn't for some time.

The PMO, too, does not utilize the tour through the repertoire approach, favoring instead, thematic programs (e.g. we will give a concert this coming January which will have, on the first half, more formally composed works like the Kioulaphides Concerto a Pizzico; the second half is less formal, more jazzy works).

Lastly, in the past two years I have started performing on solo mandolin in public -- not full concerts like Chris A, but sometimes mutiple pieces.   I have been looking at the full sweep of the solo mandolin literature for this reason, and the American side of it in particular (those who were at the Baltimore CMSA convention may remember the workshop that Carlo Aonzo gave, in which he encouraged American mandolinists to explore the American repertoire, including that from the early 20th century).  I cannot say I have read through everything but I have looked at a representative sampling.

With regard to Golden Age solo repertoire, I would say that, of the works of Valentine Abt, there is only one I am considering learning and performing ("The Brooklet"); no Pettine; no Siegel; no Stauffer.   On the other hand, I am very fond of Sol Goichberg, and really wish more of his music were readily available.   The one piece that I do play regulary is "Bells of Night" but I wouldn't call that Golden Age.

In short, to answer the question that Carlo posed, I really do not think there is much there, there.

Of Italian music of the same period, all of the Calace Preludes are very much worth performing today, in my opinion (although they are now overperformed, sort of like Villa-Lobos on the guitar), as well as several of Calace's shorter pieces.   I think the Rocco "Serenade" is definitely worth performing (but extremely difficult), ditto the Milanesi "Sarabande e Fuga".     

To return to the issue posed by the OP, the argument that a MO today should focus entirely on Golden Age material in order to attract members and an audience does not hold water.

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## Jim Garber

> I am very fond of Sol Goichberg, and really wish more of his music were readily available.


Fanny Goichberg was playing in the New York Mandolin Orchestra when I was playing with them. I believe that Neil Gladd worked with her when editing the 35 Progressive Etudes book for publication with Plucked String in the 1980s. I can find out from members there if she is still around and/or what became of his music, esp pieces that were not published.

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Alex Timmerman

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## margora

"I can find out from members there if she is still around and/or what became of his music, esp pieces that were not published."

Thanks Jim, I'll PM you on this topic.

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## Alex Timmerman

Thanks in advance Jim! That could be very interesting.

Best, 

Alex.

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## Pasha Alden

Hi Mrmando 

Many thanks.  
Listened to that mandolin playing adagio for strings.  What a difference it makes to the original ................  Somehow all those tremelos seem to provide a different level of intensity.  I imagine attempting to play that - guess it is a long way to go and I would need to put together a mandolin orchestra in SA.  
Regards and thanks for the link.

Vanillamandolin

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## Pasha Alden

That sound interesting.  I think a musical tour is a wonderful way to educate the crowds as far as music of the golden age and a way to make compositions that are heavier and somewhat intimidating more "approachable by ear".  Can I ever put it that way?

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## mrmando

I don't hear of many mandolin players from SA. How many do you know?

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## mrmando

> Fanny Goichberg was playing in the New York Mandolin Orchestra when I was playing with them. I believe that Neil Gladd worked with her when editing the 35 Progressive Etudes book for publication with Plucked String in the 1980s. I can find out from members there if she is still around and/or what became of his music, esp pieces that were not published.


The other half of Goichberg's quartet moved to the Seattle area. Their son may have some of the music.

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## margora

"The other half of Goichberg's quartet moved to the Seattle area. Their son may have some of the music."

He does.  PM me if you want the backstory.

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## margora

"I think a musical tour is a wonderful way to educate the crowds as far as music of the golden age and a way to make compositions that are heavier and somewhat intimidating more "approachable by ear". Can I ever put it that way?"

You can, and as I said, it is an approach that was common in the classical guitar world until fairly recently and still is the norm in the mandolin orchestra world.   For me personally, however, I don't play music in public to "educate" the audience; I play pieces because they speak to me.   If they speak to me, I feel I have a good chance of conveying that to an audience.   Two week ago I gave an early music concert (on renaissance lute, classical guitar, and mandolin) with a friend of mine, who is a superb performer on viola da gama, and also singer of lute and other music (among other things we played three modern works by Will Ayton, mandolin and gamba, with the mandolin tuned to baroque pitch, A = 415.   I heard Marilyn Mair perform them years ago with Will and they are outstanding).  We were asked afterwards by an audience member whether we felt an obligation as musicians to keep, say, Dowland and others alive so to speak, for a modern audience.  My answer was, no, I did not feel such an obligation; I played "Lachrimae" at this concert (on lute) because I love the music and, as I said, it speaks to me.     Except for a very small number of pieces (Calace preludes, a few others), Golden Age music on the mandolin does not speak to me, so I do not perform it, unless it is a special event (as noted in my earlier post).

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## beidlerp

While I'm not opposed to a mandolin orchestra playing pieces written only for mandolin orchestra, I don't see why we should limit ourselves.  Adapting something written for other instruments to mandolin orcehstra is inself an art form, and it often brings out beauties that are unnoticed when played on the instruments the composer wrote for.  There will be many examples in tonight's performance of Handel's Messiah in Seattle, by the way.

If there are jewels written for mandolin orchestra, then I hope someone somewhere is playing them.  I'd like to play them.  But I don't care at all what instruments a composer had in mind when writing a piece.  That's just information.  I'd rather have the information than not have it, but that is true of all information!

Of course, an adaptation either works or it doesn't.  It may not.  If people think something sucks, then that's what they think, and they may be right.  But it may not suck!  I'm with Martin.  I'll take my chances on the art of adaptation.

Paul

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## mrmando

> "The other half of Goichberg's quartet moved to the Seattle area. Their son may have some of the music."
> He does.  PM me if you want the backstory.


Al is a friend of mine ... no backstory needed, really.

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