# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  Scroll F-Style Mandolin shaped Guitar?

## Verne Andru

I was downtown yesterday and saw a busker with the oddest looking guitar. It was made to look exactly like an F-style scroll mando - right down to the headstock - but it was a full-sized archtop guitar with quite a deep body and a solid carved top. Had some wonderful inlays on the back and fretboard and even had an Gretch-style whammy bar.

I sat and listened to him/her [gender distinction was a bit blurry] play some great swampy Mississippi blues guitar for a while, then chatted about the guitar. He/she said it was custom made by a fellow who is now gone. The instrument was purchased at a Bellingham Washington music store.

Anybody know anything about these?

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## D C Blood

Not sure about that one, Verne, but Gibson had the "O Model" back in the teens and twenties (I believe), with scroll..not body points but the Florentine scroll was there.

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## Mike Bunting

Did it look like this?

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## JeffD

They were a Gibson offering if I am not mistaken.

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## allenhopkins

Gibson made scrolled guitars in the 19-teens and early '20's.  They did not, however, have headstocks with "scrolls" like the Gibson F-model mandolins.  The one you saw, as you say, was a "one-of" from an individual luthier.  Unless someone on the Cafe has had dealings with this builder, and seen other similar instruments he/she built, it's going to be difficult to get more info on them.

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## Bill Snyder

I have seen photos somewhere of something similar (and not the Gibson pictured above). I am pretty sure that some of the Vietnamese sellers on ebay have done some of these and that would jive with the inlays on the back.

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## trevor

I have come across them on the web before but don't recall any details.

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## Brett Byers

We've made two or three full sized guitars that were based off our Bitterroot F style mandolin.  Basically just an f-style Bitterroot, but much bigger.  It wasn't too much of a stretch for us as we frequently make f-style mandocellos.   I believe each guitar was custom ordered by the same dealer, but for the life of me I can't remember who it was.  I'm pretty sure they all had oval holes as well.

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## Verne Andru

Hmm, the plot thickens.

It definitely had F-holes and a scroll headstock. I once had a [shudder] Vietnam guitar neck with inlays and the work on this guitar was top-shelf - nothing like the hack work I've seen out of Vietnam.

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## allenhopkins

The Weber connection sounds promising...  It would definitely be a "top-shelf" instrument if made by Sound To Earth.  But, did they ever inlay designs on the *back* of an instrument, as you stated, or install a "whammy bar"?  Makes me think, if it wasn't one of those eBay "inlay queens," that it must have been a small-builder custom job.

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## Brett Byers

Allen, we definitely did not inlay the back of the instrument, nor install a whammy bar.  All of them were mahogany back, ribs, and neck, with sitka spruce tops.  Top bound, with F-style peghead and scrolls.  I'm going to see if I can dig up a picture of one.

edited to add link to pictures.  It looks like we also did a Bridger F 6 string guitar in addition to the Bitterroots. 
http://www.soundtoearth.com/custdisp...24&custom=true

If you follow the link, then click on each picture, you will see more pictures of each instrument.  They are listed under our custom mandocello pictures.

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## Charlieshafer

I was in Rudy's music in SOHO a while back, which is a trip into the dark realm of unbelievable rare and expensive guitars, and he had two or three new guitars by custom builders, like Monteleone, who had built gorgeous F style guitars. It could well be your busker was a ringer, just enjoying a little down-time.

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## jim simpson

I looked on this site to see if there was a guitar liked described. They have a 23" scale mandocello with a scroll but I doubt if that is what you saw.

http://soaresyguitars.com

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## Verne Andru

> It could well be your busker was a ringer, just enjoying a little down-time.


That was my thought as well. At a glance the instrument looked so out-of-place, which is what caught my eye. On closer inspection it was clearly a top-shelf build that was worth quite a bit of money, which you don't often see on the street.

Wish I had taken pic's, but I didn't have a camera. I'm hoping we can solve this mystery and find a few photo's of it.

That Bitterroot 6 String  looks very close except for the oval hole, lack of inlays and whammy bar. Is that guitar scale? Prolly sounds like god!

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## golfcourseguy

I've seen Pete and Maura Kennedy break these out. If the link works here they are in their group, The Strangelings.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpBFc-G-zHY

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## Verne Andru

> I've seen Pete and Maura Kennedy break these out. If the link works here they are in their group, The Strangelings.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpBFc-G-zHY


THAT'S IT!!!! No whammy bar, but otherwise it's right on - right down to the inlays and the deep body thickness.

But who made them?

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## Jim Garber

First 2 pics from Pete Kennedy's myspace page.

Next 2 from a Harmony Central thread. The poster says it was sold on eBay by Bruce Wei, another Vietnamese/Taiwanese seller.

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## Verne Andru

Thanks Jim.

And a big thanks to everybody for your help.

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## Verne Andru

Scared out a few more threads on this topic:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...model-mandolin
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...n-guitar-thing
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...uncan-electric

Seems like US builder Stuart Duncan made at least 1 and then there are those from Vietnam. I had the misfortune of getting an inlaid 7-string neck from VN con Anastasio Tsai. Horrible POS and very shady business dealings. Don't want to go down that road again, that's for sure.

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## Verne Andru

One just showed up on eBay:



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

When I look at the fretboard the frets don't look to be spaced properly - which was the same problem I had with the 7 string neck I bought from this seller. Plus, it is the same seller who hosed me on that neck and reading through their negative and neutral comments brought back some bad memories.

Too bad 'cause it's a cool idea.

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## DaniClfrna

Hey,

So I am reviving this thread because a guy comes into my friends store with a mandolin-shaped guitar with F holes for repair and it has absolutely no markings on it. He purchased it at a garage sale. I got some pictures of it. Can anyone identify it? I've gone  through this entire thread and can't seem to figure it out!!

FRONT
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nk/guitar1.jpg

BACK
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nk/guitar3.jpg

HEADSTOCK
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nk/guitar4.jpg

CLOSE-UP SCROLL
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nk/guitar2.jpg

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## MikeEdgerton

Made in Vietnam by one of a few builders, sold on ebay by one of a few sales agents. Lookup eBay user inlaidartist, antoniotsai and bruceweiart. You may not see the exact same item but you'll see the connection. 

*On ebay*

*On the cafe*

*More on ebay*

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## DaniClfrna

Are you sure? It seems to be really elaborate. Comes with a custom case. It's not just a inlay slap-on job. Know what I mean? 

I will take your word for it though because i've done so much research and I can't find anything.

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## jim simpson

> Are you sure? It seems to be really elaborate. Comes with a custom case. It's not just a inlay slap-on job. Know what I mean? 
> 
> I will take your word for it though because i've done so much research and I can't find anything.


I don't think any other country of origin can produce an instrument with the degree of inlay at the price point of Vietnam or similar areas.

I wish Bruce Wei or other variant makers would make a non inlayed mandolin that could be judged on it's own merit, not simply as an over "blinged" instrument.

One should check out the book on Danny Ferrington's instruments. He primarily built custom guitars for performing "name" artists. He seemed to like to incorportate the F-5 mandolin scroll into his guitars, either in profile or on the headstock.

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## DaniClfrna

I checked Danny Ferrington, it's not him. His headstock is totally different and he typically puts some kind of identifier such as an "F".

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## MikeEdgerton

> Are you sure?


Positive. 

Look at message 17 of the thread we are in. See any similarity there? These builders have been cranking out mandolins for the last several years, we see several a week here. The guitars aren't really any different. Over the top inlay and bad scrolls.

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## DaniClfrna

Thank you, I appreciate the help!!!

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## trevor

Definitely Vietnamese, and probably a wall hanger. I had one just like that in for set-up, it was impossible

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## allenhopkins

Take our word for it, it's one of the Vietnam-produced eBay instruments.  The elaborate inlay is a dead giveaway.  What the Vietnamese builders are able to do is to incorporate many hours of hand-work at a price that others cannot match.  I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong, those who actually know more) that these instruments are built as a kind of "cottage industry," in small shops, rather than in larger factories as most of the Chinese, Japanese and Korean imports seem to be.  Similarly to the backyard armorers in Pakistan who hand-build AK-47 copies, doing all the metal work on small forges and shaping with hand tools.

As a result of these production methods, the Vietnamese instruments harken back to the look of century-old US and European instruments, with scads of inlay and engraved metal parts.  Some of them are real works of art!  Where Cafe posters have reported trouble with these instruments, is in the selection of materials -- wood not properly seasoned, weak metal parts, thin inlays that crack, etc.  Some have reported general satisfaction with the Vietnamese instruments they've played, others have experienced serious problems.  It seems fair to say that construction quality varies quite a bit.

This guitar may be a wonderful instrument; it surely looks striking, dragon and all!  But I think searching for a US builder for it, will prove fruitless.

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Petrus

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## Kieran Walsh

I found the mandolin-shaped guitar. It's the Florentine guitar by Perry Freeman, so it's called the Freeman Florentine. It's a semi-hollowbody electric guitar. It has a beautiful Florentine scroll, in a size that is perfect for the size of the body. It has mandolin points, and they're correct for the design, also. It has f-shaped soundholes, and a mandolin-style pickguard. The body has a beautiful bevel, and it has a sunburst finish called Amberburst that'll take your breath away. It looks like a top-quality build throughout. You can find it online with a keyword search for "Freeman Florentine" or "Perry Freeman Florentine."

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## Petrus

Yeah, funny enough I've been following Bruce Wei's workshop's eBay page for a few days now as they seem to have a huge selection of reasonably priced mandos/ukes and mando/uke parts, often elaborately inlaid as discussed above.  I know, inlay doesn't do a thing to contribute to sound quality and I don't get starry-eyed over elaborate detail work (though it is impressive.)  Currently I'm bidding on a nice tenor uke, which has a design I haven't seen other than on vintage Kay mandos:



They've been selling for about $50-60 on eBay; unfortunately, the international shipping charge adds $60 to that. It's a shame to spend 50% of the price of an instrument on shipping, but right now that's the only way to get them.

(I'm going to tune the tenor uke GDAE, like a mando.)

The workshop also does custom work. You can order a ukulele with a soundhole shaped like your favorite state or country.  :Cool:

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## Petrus

> Similarly to the backyard armorers in Pakistan who hand-build AK-47 copies, doing all the metal work on small forges and shaping with hand tools.


There's something else I need to get into. Gotta have a "rhythm section" after all.

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allenhopkins

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## allenhopkins

> ...I've been following Bruce Wei's workshop's eBay page for a few days now as they seem to have a huge selection of reasonably priced mandos/ukes and mando/uke parts, often elaborately inlaid as discussed above...Currently I'm bidding on a nice tenor uke, which has a design I haven't seen other than on vintage Kay mandos...


Exercise caution.  Wei's offerings, like those of Antoniotsai and inlaidartist (two other prolific eBay sellers of instruments and instrument components) are generally made by Vietnamese shops, and the quality can vary widely.  Some purchasers get very serviceable instruments at bargain prices.  Others get not-fully-seasoned woods, flimsy metal parts, inlays that fall out due to over-use of filler and inferior installation.

It can be very tempting to consider the unusual designs, elaborate ornamentation, and one-of-a-kind instruments offered from these sellers: for example, *here's* a thread with recent posts, concerning an "F-style" mandocello of probable Vietnamese construction.  Lotsa good info and opinions, as well as some hands-on evaluation.

So advice would be to limit financial exposure.  You may get a gem, and you may get a lemon.  Let us know.

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## Petrus

> Exercise caution.  Wei's offerings, like those of Antoniotsai and inlaidartist (two other prolific eBay sellers of instruments and instrument components) are generally made by Vietnamese shops, and the quality can vary widely.  Some purchasers get very serviceable instruments at bargain prices.  Others get not-fully-seasoned woods, flimsy metal parts, inlays that fall out due to over-use of filler and inferior installation.


Thanx for the heads-up. Ebay is a little bit like a casino at times, though I haven't had any really negative experiences so far. I find most items to be as described, and I pay attention to the seller's reputation percentage and number of previous deals.  I sell a lot on eBay too (mainly old books) so I know how it it from both sides of the table and try to maintain a good rep for myself too when selling.




> It can be very tempting to consider the unusual designs, elaborate ornamentation, and one-of-a-kind instruments offered from these sellers: ..


Yep, luckily (or not) my funds are sufficiently limited that I can't go too crazy on the spending angle. It's way too easy to click "buy it now!" as it is. As I noted above, I'm not easily impressed by "bling" or abalone, knowing well that it does nothing for the sound of an instrument.




> So advice would be to limit financial exposure.  You may get a gem, and you may get a lemon.  Let us know.


Well, I put in a max bid of $50, considering that the shipping is $60, so if I win I get an interesting tenor uke/mando for $110.

I'm almost hoping I don't win this time, though, since I just bought a Maccaferri TV Pal uke tonight on eBay from another seller for $50.  Oh, and some buffalo-horn guitar picks that had no bidders at all and I snatched 'em up for $2 (+$10 shipping from China) during the final two minutes of the auction.  I think I need to step away from the computer.  :Redface:

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## Jim Garber

You get what you pay for. I think (and hope) that the quality of these Taiwan/Vietnam instruments have improved over the years. I played a fancy f-style mandola last year that was prob made a few years back and it was one of the worst instruments I have ever played. I have a feeling that they copied photos and had never really seen a real mandola back then. The neck was way too wide and the quality of the workmanship was terrible despite the overly audacious inlays. It was practically unplayable and sounded pretty bad as well.

A friend of mine also bought a tailpiece from one of those seller and most of the posts fell off. 

I think there are some instruments they make that can be salvageable but some parts may need to be replaced. 

I have been attracted to some of their bowlbacks but woule be pretty hesitant to take the plunge.

Caveat emptor...

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## Verne Andru

Yeah, beware. I bought a 7 string neck from Antoniotsai a number of years back and it was the absolute worst ebay transaction I've ever had. The inlays were garish, the frets were crooked and in the wrong places and the truss-rod was cemented so it wouldn't work.

These people are real good at talking-the-talk "no problem, send it back and we'll make good on it." Shipping back to VN was more than the cost of the neck and, even though I sent it to the address he gave me, it was returned after a few months as unclaimed and he wouldn't respond to emails anymore. And, of course, they stalled so long I couldn't log negative feedback [they did that purposefully IMHO] so I wouldn't put much stock in their feedback.

Turned out the money order I sent to VN was cashed by a fellow by the name of Paul somebody - I believe it was a Chinese name - in Philadelphia. Someone on a different forum that lived in VN went by the address I was told to return the neck to only to find it was in a residential suburb.

BUYER BEWARE!

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## mrbook

A friend had one, made in Vietnam. Looked cool, played nicely, but the think finish sort of killed the sound (probably not the only thing).Wouldn't mind having one around for the look.

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## Eddie Sheehy

I've got this Morgan Monroe F-Bass:

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## fiddleboat

Melodee Music in Leesburg, VA has a mandolin shaped guitar by Weber.  From the Melodee website (look a few pages down in their mandolin inventory for full description and picture):

"Mandolin Guitar Yeah, I know it isn't a mandolin, but it looks like one. This is only the third of these instruments Weber has ever built (all were designed and built for us) ..."

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## eadg145

> I've got this Morgan Monroe F-Bass:


Very cool.  What does it sound like, and how does it play?  (Compared to what?)

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## Eddie Sheehy

> Very cool.  What does it sound like, and how does it play?  (Compared to what?)


It's a 30" scale length - same as McCartney's famous Hofner.  It doesn't have the body size to cut it acoustically and the Piezo p/u needs a pre-amp bring the vol up.  I'm tempted to get a hofner p/u and have it installed with the piezo...  fun to practice with though, I like the 30" scale length... and it'd look killer in a bluegrass video....

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