# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  violin to mandolin, your experience please

## josie

I played the violin for about 12 years and just decide to try the mandolin.
My first lesson will be next week, I don't have my own instrument yet (I'm shopping for it).
I was wondering if other members here took the same path as me, starting the mandolin after the violin... how did it go for you? 
what scares me is the picking... I never played guitar (or other instrument in this group) before..

----------

Monkeyhat

----------


## Freddyfingers

Not an expert on this.  But, I started from a different path.  Guitar.  So, I had the picking and strumming down.  sadly, My head was all wrapped up in guitar scales and chords and positions.  It was a struggle at first.  For years i approached it as a backwards guitar.  Now that I know better, it flows.  My guess, since you are coming from the same background, the transition from bowing to plucking will be easy, and you already know the scale and fingerings.   You can do this!

----------

GreenMTBoy

----------


## Hany Hayek

Picking is the main difference. But it's still a lot easier than all the bowing technique with the violin. Other than for the picking you will not need any teachers. Left hand is almost the same as for the violin. I am practicing on my own. If you can read music, any violin sheet you played is good for the mandolin.
Distances on the fret board are a little bit wider than what your fingers are used to on the violin. 
Mandolin is a lot of fun, you can play it all the time, even when you are tired, something you can not do with a violin where you'll lose your intonation if you are not in your best shape. Also the sound of the mandolin will not be noticed by your neighbors  :Grin: . You can't practice your violin at night  :Frown:  (unless it's electric)
I still play my violin from time to time, but I am practicing mandolin 2 hours daily. 
Once you decide on it and get your own mandolin you'll love it.

----------


## mandogerry

I played violin from age nine through the first two years of college, and then stopped cold for a long time (decades), until I moved to the land of bluegrass and oldtime music a few years ago. I thought I'd try fiddle aka violin. How could I resist? When I picked up a fiddle, though, I realized I had a lot of relearning to do, especially bowing, and it went back in the case. 

But I could not resist the mandolin I tried at our local music shop, and decided to try a lesson or two. I never looked back. It is a wonderful instrument; you'll figure out the picking (way easier than handling a bow for me) and will discover all of the little nuances of the instrument. All of that classical training didn't go to waste -- I'm the one who initially plays the melody line in my groups when we try new songs, rather than just strum chords. Often I stay there. And imagine, you can get acceptable picks for less than a dollar. Try getting a bow for that! 

I might get back into the fiddle some day, but really the mandolin is hard to put down. I also recently added a tenor banjo and tenor guitar to the "herd" -- same GDAE tuning on mine, and a fun switch if I feel like it. 

Good luck!

----------

Monkeyhat

----------


## Jim Garber

I took up both fiddle and mandolin at the same time. I played guitar for years and always liked mandolin but I also wanted to play fiddle and mandolin was the perfect middle instrument for me: the picking of the guitar but the left hand fingering of the violin.

----------


## furuta

I did a search on this a few days ago and was surprised to find that there was a Mel-Bay-published book on the topic--Mandolin for Violinists by Andrew Driscoll.   I'm not a good enough violinist or mandolinist to be able to say much that is authoritative but my limited experience is that what Hany says is right on the mark and also that the picking isn't anything to be scared of.

----------


## BlueMt.

It could be worse ... you could be going from mandolin to fiddle.  I played guitar first, then mandolin and then had the bright idea to take up the fiddle at age 64; it truly is the devil's box!  :Wink:   Once you get a handle on picking and your finger tips toughen up, you'll do fine.

----------


## Beanzy

At least you're in the treble clef, I came to mandolin from the cello. 

The plectrum is just another skill to get down, give it time and get the tutor to get pick grip, posture etc right from the off.
As with bowing the trick is a light grip and being mindful of keeping the muscles relaxed. 

One thing I have noticed with some fiddle players going to plucked strings is a tendency to brush the strings with the pick, often allowing it to flop across the pairs, rather than keep the contact short and defined. Just something to be aware of.

Also your piano and forte come from the pick grip rather than banging harder on the strings using the arm to dig in. 
Normally the dynamics are best controlled within the pick grip, this avoids introducing tension in the wrist and arm.

----------


## josie

thnak you for your posts!!!




> I did a search on this a few days ago and was surprised to find that there was a Mel-Bay-published book on the topic--Mandolin for Violinists by Andrew Driscoll.


I found that last week! I bought the eBook and it's really interesting! 




> It could be worse ... you could be going from mandolin to fiddle.  I played guitar first, then mandolin and then had the bright idea to take up the fiddle at age 64; it truly is the devil's box!   Once you get a handle on picking and your finger tips toughen up, you'll do fine.


wow you have my admiration! starting violin or fiddle as an adult is quite a challenge! 




> At least you're in the treble clef, I came to mandolin from the cello. 
> 
> The plectrum is just another skill to get down, give it time and get the tutor to get pick grip, posture etc right from the off.
> As with bowing the trick is a light grip and being mindful of keeping the muscles relaxed. 
> 
> One thing I have noticed with some fiddle players going to plucked strings is a tendency to brush the strings with the pick, often allowing it to flop across the pairs, rather than keep the contact short and defined. Just something to be aware of.
> 
> Also your piano and forte come from the pick grip rather than banging harder on the strings using the arm to dig in. 
> Normally the dynamics are best controlled within the pick grip, this avoids introducing tension in the wrist and arm.


Yes! I learn the violin with the suzuki method and I don't have that much music theory.. so staying in the same key is a most  :Wink:  I would have love learn cello.. 




> Mandolin is a lot of fun, you can play it all the time, even when you are tired, something you can not do with a violin where you'll lose your intonation if you are not in your best shape.


cool!  :Wink:

----------


## JonZ

Picking is easier than bowing, but harder than it looks. Put in quality time on learning to do it correctly. 

The rest should come pretty easily.

----------


## farmerjones

I started fiddle and mandolin about 2 weeks apart, ten years ago. 
Indeed, picking vs. bowing requires a different muscle group. I concede I will never be able to tremolo properly. I know there are folks like Ricky Skaggs that can do both with stellar chops. Yep, I'm definitely not him.

----------


## Bertram Henze

In a nutshell: I had 9 years of violin lessons as a kid and hated it, gave up on playing music altogether and was saved by the mandolin.

Picking is the opposite of bowing: short moves instead of long moves, high forces instead of low forces (i.e. the product of both, the work, is the same). Everything else stays much the same.
For me, a mandolin is a violin done right. Real tuner mechanisms, no awkward head position, too cool for school.

----------

mandogerry

----------


## ducky_k

> Yes! I learn the violin with the suzuki method and I don't have that much music theory.. so staying in the same key is a most  I would have love learn cello..


Ha! If you're anything like me (suzuki method piano player & cellist) the biggest problem you'll have is translating fret and string numbers and then using a pick.

----------


## Manfred Hacker

The big advantage will be your ability to read music. 
I had quit the violin 35 years before I took up the mandolin.
My fingers still remembered all the notes in first position and I was able to read and pick easy tunes slowly without looking at the fingerboard.

----------


## Joel Glassman

Learning mandolin really helped my fiddle playing.
On mandolin you can think of the patterns of chords and
how they relate to the melodies which weave through them.
One can play violin without knowing about chords and progressions.
Once you do though, you can play melodies and improv which 
relate to the chords. It is a definite step forward, and much more
musical I think.

----------

farmerjones, 

lottarope

----------


## UsuallyPickin

Well it went guitar to banjo to mandolin to fiddle for my string path...... A bow is not a pick ..... Truly I thought the hardest part of learning a fiddle would be no frets .... which was difficult ... but there is an entire mind shift insofar as how notes are used when slurring or sliding and bow tricks like bowed triplets ..and shuffling. how a melody is played just involves different choices both rhythmically and melodically. A bow is not a pick .... R/

----------


## bratsche

There can be a measure of frustration involved if you've gotten fairly advanced with your violin playing, and proficient with the bow.  Naturally, when you pick up a mando, you're going to want to play some of the most difficult pieces you already "know" - and chances are, your left hand will be right there with you from the start.  But your right hand may take years to catch up and do all the things that would come naturally with a bow.  Meanwhile, you might look impatiently or even disdainfully at your pick hand as being maddeningly slow and deficient until it does finally catch up.

bratsche

----------


## lorrainehornig

I can't speak for myself because I never played violin. However, my daughter has played violin for over 30 years and she is able to pick up my mandolin and play it with no problem. I don't think you will have trouble with picking since plucking the strings of your violin is undoubtedly in your skill set. The only difference is that you will do it with a pick. Don't be afraid...you will love it. Lots of luck to you!

----------


## bratsche

I didn't mean to sound discouraging in my last post - of course, if you've played violin at all, you will be able to play a certain amount of music on mandolin right away, and it will be great fun, and likely become addictive!  




> I don't think you will have trouble with picking since plucking the strings of your violin is undoubtedly in your skill set. The only difference is that you will do it with a pick.


Well, it's not quite that simple.  :Smile:   A violinist does have some plucking of strings in his/her skill set, however, in pizzicato passages it's typically done with one single extended finger 'on the fly', so to speak, while the rest of the hand is holding onto the bow. And any "up / down" pattern is very seldom employed when playing in this manner, or even when one is holding the violin on one's lap "mando fashion" while plucking it.   

Though we're often striving to achieve similar end results, pick technique really is quite different from bow technique.  Playing cleanly at very fast tempos, or executing familiar, yet complex, string crossing chordal or arpeggiated passages using a pick are certainly things that don't happen overnight, even if we can already play the identical things bowed without a problem.

bratsche

----------


## lorrainehornig

> Well, it's not quite that simple.   A violinist does have some plucking of strings in his/her skill set, however, in pizzicato passages it's typically done with one single extended finger 'on the fly', so to speak, while the rest of the hand is holding onto the bow. And any "up / down" pattern is very seldom employed when playing in this manner, or even when one is holding the violin on one's lap "mando fashion" while plucking it.   
> bratsche


 I stand corrected...thanks bratsche!

----------


## josie

Bratsche: your first post really says the truth; I know that I'll try to play things that are way too difficult at first  :Wink:  

So I hold a mandolin for the first time Tuesday... and it was a little awkward for my right hand  :Confused:  I'm still shopping around to found my first mandolin and I'm really looking forward to start practicing... and yes I will need patience to adjust to all this.

----------


## JeffD

I started on mandolin and more recently picked up fiddle. I think that each helps the other. You will find yourself enjoying the fiddle even more than before because the mandolin will help you see the fiddle in a new way.

I know learning fiddle has greatly improved my mandolin playing.

I also love violin / mandolin duets. There is a great contrast in tone and how the sound starts and stops, and being in the same range you get to really focus in on those differences. I was playing Mazas duets with my fiddle teacher and the melody goes from one to the other sometimes back and forth, and what a joy to hear it bowed and then plucked. To hear the tremolo I have to do on mandolin to extend a note contrasted with the beautiful vibrato on a violin. We would try and phrase the passages similarly and it became quite the musical conversation.

I think its a great thing, and can only result in greater things.

----------


## lottarope

I went from violin learned Suzuki method to mando. You have some big advantages from going that way. 
1 your left hand already pretty much knows what to do
2 all that ear training won't go to waste
    The pick isn't all that hard to kind of get used to you'll get an ok sound pretty quickly. I do remember the point when it really occurred to me that really good mando playing was as hard as the violin. Getting a good proper grip on the pick is as important as all the time you spent in Suzuki learning to hold your bow.
    Learn good form, double strings under higher tension can really hurt (injure) your hands. Lucky for you when your hands get sore you can pick up the violin for a few days and try out some of the things you are learning from mando. I feel playing both has really helped me on both instruments.
    One other really cool benefit you will have is what it will do for "your" sound. So many mando players are guitar players so they tend to approach mando like a guitar and it affects the sort of sound they create as a violin player you have a chance to contribute a sound that is most likely going to sound a little different. I know when I sit in on a jam I tend to add more counter melodies, tags, fills, and drones and chop less. I believe solos/ breaks were easier for me because I came from a violin background. I'm not knocking the guitar approach to the mando just saying I like the kind of sound I get from approaching it from violin.
    The other thing I like about playing both is what mando has done for my violin. Learning to chop chords has helped me find cooler double stops and know more of what to do when my instrument is not being featured. Because a mandolin has frets it's easier to learn to move up the neck and I find myself finding it easier to move up the neck on my violin now.
     You're in for a lot of fun,
     Buck Reule

----------


## Django Fret

My first instrument was the violin which included just about 3 years of classical training in which I think I did OK but upon turning age 11, I learned that playing the violin wasn't "cool".  I quickly dropped it until I resumed playing "fiddle" just before entering graduate school and then had a blast and appreciated everything that I had learned. At least I had the fundamentals down and I've never stopped playing since then. I started playing mandolin about 20 years later, but it took a while to learn the differences and the similarities.  

All I can really add to what has been posted before in this thread will be to consider playing your mandolin with flat wound strings since I think they will be easier on your fingers. (Thomastik Infelds are still my favorites for many reasons.)  My biggest adjustments were my fingers having to deal with the double course strings, having frets, and learning how to pluck the strings with a pick to get a sound instead of bowing.  (I found have Wegans to be my choice for a variety of reasons.)

If you stay with it, I think you will you find a lot of satisfaction making the transition, building on what you already know, and learning from the many fine folks on this site.  

Just be warned to be very careful about MAS...

----------


## josie

Thanks!! 

Lottarope: chords is an other thing that scares me a little... did not get too much music theory with the Suzuki method.. and have not good memories of music theory classes but that was 20 years ago  :Wink:  

Django Fret : thanks for the reply, yes double strings is a interesting feature...
MAS? is it for Mandolin Acquisition Syndrome???

----------


## mandogerry

Josie, I also was intimidated by the idea of chords (even though I understood violin double stops -- definitely they are different creatures). The chord fingerings that I saw in mandolin chord books made my head spin. What I found very helpful was to start out with simple two-finger chords. Scott our site owner was kind enough to post a chart of these on the Cafe:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/two.html

This helped me to understand basic chord structure and was easier on my fingers. If you like, you can build on these chords as you get more experienced. Since I am mostly a melody person (chalk that preference up to violin background), I still toss in many of these two-finger chords for variety while playing melody.

You're getting terrific advice here. Good luck.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> MAS? is it for Mandolin Acquisition Syndrome???


Learning fast!  :Cool:

----------


## bratsche

Mandogerry:  You come from a violin background and can use chord diagrams?  You're more versatile than I am!  I was going to suggest finding chords written out on the staff, as that's the only way I (personally) find them easy to read and know what notes I'm actually playing.  But maybe that's just me.  I get too confused by looking at diagrams of a fingerboard straight-on, since I've never done that.  "It does not compute."  (Weird, since I'm a visual learner - but I visualize the staff, and navigate the fretboard by feel.)

bratsche

----------


## JeffD

> Mandogerry:  You come from a violin background and can use chord diagrams?  You're more versatile than I am!  I was going to suggest finding chords written out on the staff, as that's the only way I (personally) find them easy to read and know what notes I'm actually playing.  But maybe that's just me.  I get too confused by looking at diagrams of a fingerboard straight-on, since I've never done that.  "It does not compute."  (Weird, since I'm a visual learner - but I visualize the staff, and navigate the fretboard by feel.)


Yay!

While I started on mandolin, I started reading standard notation from a beginners clarinet book.

My first chord chart I spent the weekend translating onto the staff. I learned a lot just in that process, about how chords are made as well as how they are fingered. I remember my papers spread out on the dining room table with my mandolin, and Mother wanting me to set the table. I crammed all my stuff down to one end to make room and so I could quickly get back to it after dinner.

----------


## mandogerry

> Mandogerry:  You come from a violin background and can use chord diagrams?  You're more versatile than I am!  I was going to suggest finding chords written out on the staff, as that's the only way I (personally) find them easy to read and know what notes I'm actually playing.  But maybe that's just me.  I get too confused by looking at diagrams of a fingerboard straight-on, since I've never done that.  "It does not compute."  (Weird, since I'm a visual learner - but I visualize the staff, and navigate the fretboard by feel.)
> 
> bratsche


I suppose it helped (?) that I took off about 30 years between violin and mandolin...so everything seemed unfamiliar by then! The two-finger chords were easier for me to "translate" from a chart into actual fingering than the charts in the "1001 Chords You Never Will Master" books: Start on 8th fret, twist all four fingers into pretzel, and voila you have the 10th version of a D chord.... 

From playing the violin and from going to public schools at a time when everyone seemed to learn the basics of reading music on a staff, I am grateful for that skill. I don't know how people who only read tab can do it. I am totally tab impaired. Guess we all have our "it does not compute" things.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I get too confused by looking at diagrams of a fingerboard straight-on, since I've never done that.  "It does not compute."


Funny enough, in my own violin era, I used to visualize finger positions on the fretboard like there were invisible frets. It seems to be a matter of what your first instrument was - in my case not the violin, but a _Schmalzither_ (a medieval chromatic relative of the dulcimer) in elementary school.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> ...the charts in the "1001 Chords You Never Will Master" books: Start on 8th fret, twist all four fingers into pretzel, and voila you have the 10th version of a D chord....


 :Laughing:  :Laughing:  Yes, coming from the violin, the mandolin seemed to be a natural melody instrument to me; to play chords on it was an outlandish concept I only got introduced to later, and even then I never got round to play ffcp. Today, playing an OM, I still stick with the simple open chords, and ffcp are not possible with that anyway.

----------


## Roseweave

Can you play anything intended for a violin on a Mandolin? That would give me a lot of things to play. I imagine some chords will be harder to make though.

----------


## peterk

I'll try to play much of violin literature on mandolin.....within reason, that is.
Mandolin will stretch your left hand much more than the violin.......in fact, it's similar to viola. However, a properly set up mandolin will not require the same "little hammer" finger action as violin does. Your intonation worries are largely gone with the mandolin, although tuning of the mandolin itself opens another can of worms.
The finger slides on mandolin are bumpy and vibrato doesn't work very well. 
Also, the mandolin neck being more robust, it will tend to hurt your left hand until you figure out ways of modifying your violin hold.
Lastly, stringing up a mandolin is a real PITA particularly with old and stiff tuning machines. Now, if you have the Preston tuning machine on your mandolin, you will also probably have to make your own string loops.
Thankfully for those who chose mandolin over any bowed instrument, it is possible to produce decent tone with the plectrum from day one. Not so with the bow. However, plectrum has its own challenges, and tremolo is one them.

----------


## josie

> Can you play anything intended for a violin on a Mandolin? That would give me a lot of things to play. I imagine some chords will be harder to make though.


Yes, the violin and mandolin are in the G clef (treble). Violin don't really do chords... it's more melodies.

----------


## josie

Got my first mandolin yesterday!!!
It's a Kentucky 
KM-174 oval hole  :Smile:  I'll post pics later.
I spend about 2-3 hours playing with it... my left hand fingers are sore lol it's been a while since they touch stirngs!
My right hand is a little lost but tries to keep up with the left one (so weird that the left hand ''knows'' where to be lol)
I was able to play the first 3 Suzuki books  :Smile:  well not at the same tempo as on my violin but it's still amazing foe a first time playing the mandolin!

 Peterk:  do I need to put my left hand fingers more flat rather then ''little hamers''?

----------


## peterk

> Peterk:  do I need to put my left hand fingers more flat rather then ''little hamers''?


Josie, I suppose the stopping action on the mandolin is a bit more relaxed than on the classical violin. However, I think it is still important to maintain some curvature in your finger joints, particularly with the pinkie where the temptation is to stop strings with it being fully outstretched by players with smaller hand. Since the typical mandolin neck is thicker, even for people with big hands, it would be difficult to maintain violin style stopping action on the G course, perpendicular to the fretboard. 
However, I am a novice to mandolin playing myself, and I've been trying to find my own ways about it without departing too much from the violin style stopping action, because otherwise, at the end of the day I am afraid I might end up unable to play either the violin or the mandolin.. :Grin:  I still need to do lottsa practice, and hopefully some improvements, with my picking hand which is trailing behind my left hand by quite a bit.

Congratulations on your first mandolin acquisition. New instrument explorations are quite exciting.

----------


## lottarope

Josie,
    One thing I would do now before a habit is developed is to spend time researching how to hold the pick. There are are endless discussions here about grip. Right now you are in the optimal stage to learn good habits. Trust me unlearning planting and brushing with the pinky is hard. Also a good grip that is loose, relaxed.secure and firm gives better sound and better sound = more fun = more practice = better playing. Alas a joy spiral. I would recommend Mike Marshal on youtoube.

----------


## JeffD

> Can you play anything intended for a violin on a Mandolin? That would give me a lot of things to play.


Pretty much. Same range, same basic fingerings.

----------


## JeffD

One of the larger differences between the way a violinist looks at the finger board and the way a mandolinist would is the issue of up the neck.

Violinists, by and large, all but the very advanced, will play everything in first position unless there is a reason not too. Maybe to go up the neck on the E string, or to catch some double stops with the A string or short cut reaches on the A string while up there.

Part of this is that open strings and fingered strings sound real different on the violin, not so much on the mandolin, because of the frets.

Mandolinists are able to move up the neck, and do so more frequently. And not just on the E or A string, playing up on the G and D strings as well, because the reaches are shorter or the opportunity for harmony is better. Some mandolinners just about abandon open strings altogether. (A tune learned without open strings is portable to just about every key imaginable.) Because of the frets it is much easier to get good intonation anywhere on the neck, and its great fun to take advantage.

Watch some videos how great mandolinners are all over the neck, much more so than most violinists. 

It will make you a better violinist as well, because you will see options violinists typically don't think of.

I learned position playing on the violin, which is very valuable to know. But on the mandolin I don't even "need" to think that way. A tune or riff or phrase or double stop I know in closed position (no open strings) I can play anywhere on the neck up or down (or across), and so becomes available to me what ever key I am playing in.

Just something to think about.

----------

lottarope

----------


## mandogerry

> One of the larger differences between the way a violinist looks at the finger board and the way a mandolinist would is the issue of up the neck.
> 
> Violinists, by and large, all but the very advanced, will play everything in first position unless there is a reason not too. Maybe to go up the neck on the E string, or to catch some double stops with the A string or short cut reaches on the A string while up there.


Are you telling me that having to learn what I called the "Seven Deadly Positions" on violin those many years ago was just my teacher's method of torturing his teenaged students?? 

And now I just discovered there is an EIGHTH position: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1rqY5B8xoM

Ouch is all I can say to that one. My fingers were not meant to stretch quite that way, without my thumb getting dislocated.

----------


## bratsche

> Violinists, by and large, all but the very advanced, will play everything in first position unless there is a reason not too. Maybe to go up the neck on the E string, or to catch some double stops with the A string or short cut reaches on the A string while up there.


I would beg to differ with that.  Maybe _fiddlers_ play mostly in first position. But third and fifth position are taught to violin students just as soon as first position is mastered, followed soon by fourth and sixth positions, and their use encouraged for many reasons, such as providing consistency of sound in a phrase, or creating a special tone color using the higher position on the lower strings.  Of course, maybe that is what you meant by "unless there's a reason not to".  There are actually quite a few reasons not to mainly use first position.  (As a violist, I'm also especially fond of second position, and half position!)

bratshce

----------

mandogerry, 

Manfred Hacker

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Are you telling me that having to learn what I called the "Seven Deadly Positions" on violin those many years ago was just my teacher's method of torturing his teenaged students??


There's more such methods I could tell you of. One involves the teacher standing right behind the student, correcting the student's left hand attitude and meanwhile poisoning him with his bad breath.

----------


## josie

> There's more such methods I could tell you of. One involves the teacher standing right behind the student, correcting the student's left hand attitude and meanwhile poisoning him with his bad breath.


stop! that brings back bad memories! lol

----------


## bratsche

Ewww, gross!  I'm lucky in that my teachers both always smelled good, or at least clean, didn't smoke or have bad breath, etc.  I wonder how much correlation there is between such things and whether a student continues playing or just quits?

bratsche

----------


## JeffD

> I would beg to differ with that.  Maybe _fiddlers_ play mostly in first position. But third and fifth position are taught to violin students just as soon as first position is mastered, followed soon by fourth and sixth positions, and their use encouraged for many reasons, such as providing consistency of sound in a phrase, or creating a special tone color using the higher position on the lower strings.  Of course, maybe that is what you meant by "unless there's a reason not to".  There are actually quite a few reasons not to mainly use first position.


I understand. In my violin lessons I was learning third position, and almost to the point where I could read in third. Just about. Real close. And I was taught how to develop the muscle memory to know my hand was properly placed for third position. 

I am thinking more about how the ease of intonation on the mandolin gives more freedom. Freedom even from positional thinking. 

Here is a cool video of Sierra Hull. And it demonstrates what I was thinking about, sort of "pattern" thinking where instead of predefined positions you get a feel of what is reachable from where you are, where ever you are. Having frets makes this kind of stuff much easier.


I would be interested to know how formal classical mandolin teaching addresses playing up the neck. It might just be a difference between formal training in classical music, and the rest.

----------


## catmandu2

> I understand. In my violin lessons I was learning third position, and almost to the point where I could read in third. Just about. Real close. And I was taught how to develop the muscle memory to know my hand was properly placed for third position. 
> 
> I am thinking more about how the ease of intonation on the mandolin gives more freedom. Freedom even from positional thinking. 
> 
> Here is a cool video of Sierra Hull. And it demonstrates what I was thinking about, sort of "pattern" thinking where instead of predefined positions you get a feel of what is reachable from where you are, where ever you are. Having frets makes this kind of stuff much easier.
> 
> 
> I would be interested to know how formal classical mandolin teaching addresses playing up the neck. It might just be a difference between formal training in classical music, and the rest.


There is a fundamental and profound difference between fretted strings and bowed (non-fretted) strings--and resultant approach to playing.  There are differences in classical-method pedagogies and "folk" approaches, but the instrument's capacities generally dictate its playing techniques (by and large--we don't play triads and extensions on the "non-chording" instruments, etc, [specific styles, etc. notwithstanding], whereas on the fretted strings playing to the top of the fingerboard is essentially no more difficult than anywhere else on the fingerboard ).  Because the bowed strings prevent this (triadic forms, etc) for overt ergonomic reasons--consider the oud with its similarities to guitar: we can play chords in the lower positions (involving open strings, etc) fairly easily, but rare to see chording above 1st pos, etc

----------


## bratsche

> I am thinking more about how the ease of intonation on the mandolin gives more freedom. Freedom even from positional thinking.


Of course having frets makes intonation easier than not having them; that goes without saying.  I watched the Sierra video, and while I'm not familiar with that style of playing (remember, I'm the boxed-in Bach person here, who can't even play a swing rhythm. <g>), she explains what she does very clearly - I wasn't even aware that the "back slide" was a deliberate effect - and when she talks about positions, I'm not so sure that it's all that different from violin thinking.  

We (wielders of bows) learn our positions dutifully as students, but once we've learned them, we now know "where stuff's at," to use Sierra's phrase, but aren't all that conscious of them once we're playing fluently all up and down the fingerboard.  At least that's the case with me. I'm much more inclined to think in terms of "those notes are G, F, E (or whatever) and I'm playing them with the 3rd and 2nd finger, then shifting down to 3rd finger again" (just an example out of my head, not thinking of any specific passage here) - rather than to think, "I'm playing it in this numbered position, and then that one".  

Maybe advanced players who are also teachers remain more consciously aware of their positions while they play, because they use that knowledge in communication with their students.  But I don't teach. So for me, positions are like road maps - once I learned the way, I stopped most mental referring to them specifically anymore.  

And as far as chords are concerned - well, to name the closest example, Bach solo violin music is rather full of them, and they're played all over the fingerboard.  Even though they must be "broken" due to our instruments' ability to only sound two notes simultaneously, we finger them as the full chords.  In some instances when playing from the Partitas on mandola, I'll play the occasional chord up the neck, rather than in the lower position where it would be done on violin, simply because it's more comfortable up high as the frets are closer together.  Or, if I have no other recourse but to use a lower position, then I sometimes have to finger the chords as two separate chords (or even single arpeggiated notes) in rapid succession, rather than all stopped at once, due to hand size and finger length limitations.   (A violin scale length is 13", and an average viola scale only 14.25" or so, though they're more variable.)  But there are plenty of chords in Bach that are intended to be played on violin in the upper positions, as well as the lower ones.

bratsche

----------


## belbein

> I would beg to differ with that.  Maybe _fiddlers_ play mostly in first position. But third and fifth position are taught to violin students just as soon as first position is mastered, followed soon by fourth and sixth positions, and their use encouraged for many reasons, such as providing consistency of sound in a phrase, or creating a special tone color using the higher position on the lower strings.  Of course, maybe that is what you meant by "unless there's a reason not to".  There are actually quite a few reasons not to mainly use first position.  (As a violist, I'm also especially fond of second position, and half position!)
> 
> bratshce


I'm going to regret asking this--since I am still reeling from finding out there are multiple tenor cleffs and bass cleffs--but what's "half position"?

----------


## catmandu2

> Even though they must be "broken" due to our instruments' ability to only sound two notes simultaneously...


This is rather what I was getting at--I should have said "physiognomic" (if there is such a word) rather than ergonomic...perhaps _architecture_ is better

----------


## bratsche

> I'm going to regret asking this--since I am still reeling from finding out there are multiple tenor cleffs and bass cleffs--but what's "half position"?


Why, it's a half step lower than first position!  The lowest position there is.   :Wink:  

It's most useful on longer-scaled instruments, and mainly utilized transitionally in passages occurring in keys with many accidentals, or to play the most logical and fluid (or "least awkward") fingering in chromatic passages.

bratsche

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I'm lucky in that my teachers both always smelled good, or at least clean, didn't smoke or have bad breath, etc.  I wonder how much correlation there is between such things and whether a student continues playing or just quits?


Quitting was not an option for me back then, so it was just another brick in the wall (apologies, Mr Waters) that had written "violin ain't fun" all over it.*

*someone will point out that violins don't kill motivation, people do. For brevity, I'll say in advance that until it will become possible to avoid people I'll make do with second best, i.e. avoiding the violin, and that playing the mandolin has helped me a lot with that.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> ...I should have said "physiognomic" (if there is such a word) rather than ergonomic..


The word exists indeed, and in this context it would mean to judge an instrument's sound from its appearance ("just look at it, can't trust that thing with a full chord")  :Grin:

----------


## JeffD

> Why, it's a half step lower than first position!  The lowest position there is.


There are some cool Irish tunes in B_b_ that are played that way. At least in my mind that's how it feels.

----------


## catmandu2

> The word exists indeed, and in this context it would mean to judge an instrument's sound from its appearance ("just look at it, can't trust that thing with a full chord")


It gets "a little hairy up there"--when playing triads above lower positions; although, playing "broken" chords facilitates chording--allowing intonation adjustments with each discrete note.  Still, there's not room for my fingers to make many chord forms on a violin fingerboard, while I'm able on oud and doublebass

----------


## SincereCorgi

> It's most useful on longer-scaled instruments, and mainly utilized transitionally in passages occurring in keys with many accidentals...


I dunno, I just use it to play in, say, F.

----------


## bratsche

Sure, if the scale is long enough, why not?  I probably do that too on my GOM.  I was mainly thinking about my viola when I wrote that, since I'd earlier commented that as a violist, I'm fond of second and half positions.  Doubt I'd use half position in F on the viola, though.   :Smile: 

bratsche

----------


## JeffD

> Maybe advanced players who are also teachers remain more consciously aware of their positions while they play, because they use that knowledge in communication with their students.  But I don't teach. So for me, positions are like road maps - once I learned the way, I stopped most mental referring to them specifically anymore.


I love when something old becomes new, when ideas can be borrowed from one arena and suddenly everything is seen in a new light, and then that new light gets shined on the other arena and new epiphanies sprout over there. Back and forth and back again.

So I am thinking about FFcP, and how it creates a fret board where no road map is needed. Where you can ignore the terrain if you want. Where (ultimately) playing in any key is as easy as playing in any other key. 

I showed this to my violin teacher years ago, but she never seemed to really "get it". This was in response to how big a deal it was for my mandolin playing to learn positional thinking, and to share another way of navigation from the mandolin world back to the fiddle universe.

----------

lottarope

----------


## bratsche

Jeff, I have to admit I never could get into the FFcP business.  I have no doubt that it's very valuable, and that I could potentially learn a lot from it, especially in areas where I'm weak or altogether unlearned, like harmonic theory and especially modes.   In a perfect world, perhaps I would, one in which I had countless hours available for unlimited learning of new things.  

However, the FFcP "method" did not grab me by the brain right away, because the first thing I saw were fretboard diagrams.  And my mind doesn't learn naturally by looking at fretboard diagrams - it may sound silly to some, but they are a foreign language to me.  Not quite hieroglyphics or Kanji characters, but nonetheless, one requiring a little too much a.) staring at the fretboard head-on and then b.) relating it to the pictures, and finally c.) making the mental translation into something more familiar, i.e. notes on the staff.  So it did not hold my interest as much as it might have if it had begun with getting to see the notes written.   I'm not surprised that your violin teacher did not "get it." Actually, it's kind of reassuring to me because I see I'm not alone, and sometimes I feel backwards or dumb when I read people raving about FFcP.  But I guess that as a rule, we're just not programmed (for lack of a better word) from a young age to think in terms of the FFcP methodology.

So I know where you're coming from, and it's great when an idea brings new light to an old subject, and produces "aha" moments.  Just the act of playing on both a bowed and a plucked instrument has done that for me a lot, and the "cross training" has made me a better musician at each, whether I can pinpoint and verbalize the exact reasons and specific influences, or whether they just "happen" on a subconscious level.   Even though the first instrument I learned had no frets, the act of learning one that did have frets had an ultimate effect of making even my fretless world more familiar and secure.  If that makes any sense to you...

bratsche

----------


## lottarope

"cross training" lol  I like that. I  cant think of a more fitting term. Just like crosstraining can help get athletes out of a rut and improve preformance I think this kind of cross training can do the same for musicians. It adds adds mental and techincal flexability to my playing.

----------


## SincereCorgi

> ...it's great when an idea brings new light to an old subject, and produces "aha" moments.


I get what you mean... I'm sort of ambivalent about FFCP, but I can see how it would work for a lot of people. It reminds me of the 'CAGED' system for guitar players, where it's ultimately a simplification of some fundamental concepts about position playing and chord inversions, but for a lot of players it's worthwhile because it turns on a lightbulb.

----------


## Richard58

I'v played fiddle for abt 38 years, the bow came natural to me. My problem is the pick on the mandolin...hi all

----------


## Joel Glassman

I did this.
When I start thinking of the fingerboard as moving chord shapes,
my violin soloing became much more structured and musical. A big change.
All because of playing mandolin

----------


## bratsche

I see that term "chord shapes" used around here at the Cafe a lot, but not at all in my real life of playing in orchestras.  What does it actually mean (assuming it has a specific meaning)?   I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I don't have a clue.  Does it have something to do with chord inversions?

bratsche

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I see that term "chord shapes" used around here at the Cafe a lot, but not at all in my real life of playing in orchestras.  What does it actually mean (assuming it has a specific meaning)?


I guess it's an ffcp word, meaning these pretzelistic fingering patterns. For doing the power-B-chord, 4-4-2-2 is one possible corresponding chord shape. Now you can move that shape up and down the fretboard (5-5-3-3 is the power-C-chord etc) you can transpose without thinking, or so the ffcp people say.
But I may be totally wrong. I'm an open chord guy - when I need to transpose, there is that capo I have... :Grin:

----------


## lottarope

Josie at some point check out the ffcp stuff. When I read through it it really opened up the neck for me. I don't claim to be any expert at it, but that concept really helped both mando and violin for me. When i first started playing mando it would have overwelmed me, but when i was about two years down the road into playing it really made sense. Personally now i use a capo to change where i can get open ringing tones but mostly it gets in the way. If the capo works better for you like Bertram says use it, I've played with some really good players who do.

----------


## catmandu2

> I guess it's an ffcp word...


ffcp is more scalar in its concept and function (although of course it can be applied to chords as well--simply by building chords from the scales).  "Chord shapes/forms" is common vernacular and usage to any "chording" instrument--take for example tenor banjo: we use 12 basic forms for the inversions -- 3 maj, 3 min, 4 7th, 1 each for aug and dim.  For guitar--there are many more.  Jazz and improvising bassists also use a similar heuristic: common to use "box"-conceptions for example (which are basically chord-form or ffcp conceptions); simply devices to facilitate navigation

----------


## josie

> Josie at some point check out the ffcp stuff. When I read through it it really opened up the neck for me. I don't claim to be any expert at it, but that concept really helped both mando and violin for me. When i first started playing mando it would have overwelmed me, but when i was about two years down the road into playing it really made sense. Personally now i use a capo to change where i can get open ringing tones but mostly it gets in the way. If the capo works better for you like Bertram says use it, I've played with some really good players who do.


well I'm lost here with all this discussion about ffcp and chor shapes.. sounds like Japanese to me! :Confused: 
is there any ffcp for dummies out there?

I went to my first lesson last Monday!  :Smile: 
it start ok, my teacher help me with how to hold the pick. did some scales.. got 2 musical piece to work on: Amedeo (Raffaele Calace) and a sonatina (Beethoven).
I have to practice  :Wink:

----------


## lottarope

I read about it at jazzmando.com there is a link to FFcP on their home page.   It really helped me. If its too much right now keep it in mind and come back to it later. Pick and have fun :Smile:

----------


## Adam Sweet

I studied classical violin for 14 years before picking up my first mandolin.  I was playing with a bluegrass band at the time, and wanted an instrument I could sing with.  I'd noodled around on a friend's mandolin and realized how similar it was to the violin, so I thought I could learn how to hold it and play it fairly easily.  Now, 34 years later, I'm glad I did!

----------


## josie

Hi!!
just wanted to ad that I just bought a new mandolin! 















On the sticker inside it says:
no.20901 style 1615 model 1915

According to brunello97 here it wasprobably built beetween 1915 and 1917. 
I know I did not make a great deal  for it, since it's an average instrument, but it sounds real good. 
I'll bring it to a luthier to make sure it's well adjust (brunello97 talk about the bridge not being at the right place).

I'm amazed that this instrument is that old! I tough it was a copy of an old one... and had difficulties believing the seller story : this instrument was give as a gift for his grandfather. He was a mechanics in WW2, fight in France and had take shelter in a farm with the help of the elderly couple that lived there. 20 years after the end of the war He visit them back and the men had died but the widow give him this mandolin.

----------


## Jim Garber

Washburn mandolins are very nice and yours looks to be in excellent shape. The fancy ones, for the most part, do not sound any better than the simple and plain ones. Yours is made of quality wood -- Brazilian rosewood and fine spruce so I think you did fine.

----------


## Aleg

Hello,

I would like to know if some of you had the same problem as me :
I'm a violin player, and since I've begun playing the mandolin, calluses have developped on my fingertips...
And now my fingertips slide too much on my violin fingerboard, there's not that little adherence and sensation I liked anymore, and it has become hard to play...
Do some of you have a solution to that ?

Thanks
(and sorry if strange english, I'm french)

----------


## Jim Garber

> Hello,
> 
> I would like to know if some of you had the same problem as me :
> I'm a violin player, and since I've begun playing the mandolin, calluses have developped on my fingertips...
> And now my fingertips slide too much on my violin fingerboard, there's not that little adherence and sensation I liked anymore, and it has become hard to play...
> Do some of you have a solution to that ?
> 
> Thanks
> (and sorry if strange english, I'm french)


I switch back and forth and have some pretty deep callouses from playing guitar and mandolin over the years. I am not sure what solution there is. Maybe a bit of powdered rosin or talcum powder on your fingers when playing violin? I never had that problem. I am not sure why your fingers would slide on the fingerboard. You may just need to press down a little harder on the violin—but not too much. Hopefully someone ele will have a similar problem as yours and will suggest something that worked for him or her.

----------


## Aleg

> I switch back and forth and have some pretty deep callouses from playing guitar and mandolin over the years. I am not sure what solution there is. Maybe a bit of powdered rosin or talcum powder on your fingers when playing violin? I never had that problem. I am not sure why your fingers would slide on the fingerboard. You may just need to press down a little harder on the violin—but not too much. Hopefully someone ele will have a similar problem as yours and will suggest something that worked for him or her.


Hey Jim, 

Thank you for your answer. I also thought about talcum powder but it will probably be weird-looking, and penetrating in the strings etc...

The problem is that the calluses don't have any "fingerprint relief" and are harder and dryer than the pulp I had before, so they slide on the fingerboard like pebbles on ice... I don't have anymore control ^^

Even if I press down harder the sensations are bad compared to before.

Never mind, I'll try to adapt with time or quit one of the two instruments ^^

Thanks again

Antoine

----------


## Tom Wright

> Hey Jim, 
> 
> Thank you for your answer. I also thought about talcum powder but it will probably be weird-looking, and penetrating in the strings etc...
> 
> The problem is that the calluses don't have any "fingerprint relief" and are harder and dryer than the pulp I had before, so they slide on the fingerboard like pebbles on ice... I don't have anymore control ^^
> 
> Even if I press down harder the sensations are bad compared to before.
> 
> Never mind, I'll try to adapt with time or quit one of the two instruments ^^
> ...


It is entirely possible to play violin with calluses, and most pros have substantial thickness, and I sure did. Being slippery should not be a bug, but a feature, because it helps in shifts and slides, and makes that cool swing wobble, or shake, vibrato easier.

You should not depend on sticky contact with the violin fingerboard. Better technique is a hand shape that is independent of grip and contact. An exercise that helps is to finger a third across two strings, the doublestop, and try the wobble. (I suggest 2nd and 4th fingers.) You have to squeeze less so you can move, but just enough to have a clear pitch sound. Then try to play a tune while holding that shape.

More callus helps mandolin, because you can slide, and clearer tone is possible because you are less likely to ooze over the fret to damp the vibrating part of the string. The pain goes away as the callus hardens.

Keep playing both instruments and celebrate the real mojo, whch is your own hard-as-nails fingertips.

----------


## erichkopp

What Tom Wright said. Your callouses will harden and become more a part of your fingertips--no need to pick one instrument or the other or do anything special to your fingers to play violin. You'll get used to it real quick.

----------


## Aleg

I'm late but thanks for your answers

----------

