# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  Small portable pa

## Adam Tracksler

Looking for a small portable PA. I've seen the Fender Passport and read about the Mackie SRM150.

Portable and powerful are the two things I'm looking for.

Anything else I should be looking at?

Thanks, ad

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## MikeEdgerton

I had a Kustom Profile that I wish I'd never got rid of. It worked great and everything fit in one case. I felt the need to go larger and now I'm humping three times the stuff into the same small venues.

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## allenhopkins

I've had good luck with the Fender Passport P-150; only has three channels, so I got a little Behringer 5-channel mixer, plug it into the auxiliary (tape) inputs of the Passport, and have eight usable channels.
I also have a Passport P-250, which is more powerful and has four channels. But the P-150 is my everyday little PA, and I've used it for up to 200-seat venues with no trouble. Only caveat is that if you're trying to project strong bass, it may not be all you need. I've used it for a bunch of dance gigs, but others have said that when they want a strong "beat" the little speakers don't provide enough low end.
Fender now has several models of "Deluxe" Passport, which supposedly have redesigned speakers. Haven't tried them. They're significantly more expensive than the regular models.

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## mandroid

to run how many channels? and will a single cabinet do? or do you need a to have 2 FOH speakers?

Galaxy audio makes a small 140 watt portable 3 piece set, mic stand mounts, but only 1 line and 1 mic input. 5 5" speakers handle 100w ea.

I, now, have a Roland AC 60, theres a lot of input options on the back, adding a sub mixer for more channels can be done.
then its a powered stereo speaker and features a 1_1/2" speaker stand socket in the bottom, so thats 2 pieces and the stand.
and the case for the microphones and cables .

Behringers larger ,heavier acoustic guitar amp has additional inputs too.
[pickin' buddy got one of those]

The other piece of gear I tried: ETEK NoteMix, a quite small 10 channel powered mixer.6mic 2 stereo, control panel in the lid has lots of slider controls in a very small space. that and 2 Carvin 8ohm mic stand speakers is quite compact. over time notemix showed it needing to be handled very carefully ; heat sink shifts around slightly , and solder to power transistors weaken with handling.
 after re-soldering all I now have it in a larger foam padded bag.

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## Adam Tracksler

Just looking for something small-ish to run vocals and a fiddle through.

I dont need anything remotely professional, its for a jam at a Sr. Citizens center...

Anyone used this one?
Nady

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## mandroid

The Macki's SRM 150 does seem a good piece of gear.
It is integrated around the Microphone stand, and does say it has a number of bells and whistles
http://www.mackie.com/products/srm150/index.html

well proven Galaxy pas 140 Core http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product....=601482
 would do, on its own, at similar price, smaller and made in Kansas. separate mic stand, 
sits on top of it, or it can sit on a chair, of course.

even smaller Micro spot powered monitor is a newer offering.

or Crate's 'Limo' floor wedge like format, thats rechargeable battery operated

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## Tim2723

That sort of one cabinet design could work very well for you. I see that Musician's friend doesn't have a rating yet on that one. You might want to check the reviews on other Nady gear. Some of there stuff gets pretty low numbers.

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## hdfixer

I have a pair of JBL powered EON 15's that I love. 

They are internally bi-amped, very powerful and lightweight as well. They have been through all sorts of hard use over the past 8 or so years and still sound great. I usually run them through a small mixer, but you can also plug directly into them, or run them one at a time. You can also daisy chain them together. I got carry bags for them and you can sling one easily over your shoulder. They tilt back so you can use them as monitor system and they have built in mounts for optional stands if you need them. There's also a 10" version that sounds great. Mackie has clones of them that are supposed to be pretty good as well.

Chris.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Anyone used this one?


I bought one piece of Nady equipment. A single powered monitor to use as a stage monitor. It lasted half of the first show I tried to use it on. It looked decent, didn't sound too bad but I'm a little frightened by what I perceive to be the quality or lack thereof. YMMV.

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## PhilGE

> well proven #Galaxy pas 140 #Core http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product....=601482
>  would do, #on its own, at similar price, smaller and made in Kansas. #separate mic stand, 
> sits on top of it, #or it can sit on a chair, of course.
> 
> even smaller Micro spot powered monitor is a newer offering.


I've used these in the past in church settings and think the Galaxy (link is to Full Compass - I've had good service and pricing from them) is a good deal if all you want is the two inputs. It has a nice sound for the price and size.

-Phil

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## Django Fret

> Just looking for something small-ish to run vocals and a fiddle through.
> 
> I dont need anything remotely professional, its for a jam at a Sr. Citizens center...


You might want to check this one out if you can find one:

http://www.ion-audio.com/ipa03.php

I just used one for a small wedding this past weekend and it worked just fine set up with two microphones for vocals in a small venue. # I also used it this past weekend in a small club as an amp for my fiddle and mandolin using the line out. #The weekend before, I used it at an outdoor event as a stand alone amp playing with three plugged-in guitars, electric bass, and drums, and it held it's own no problem.

The battery lets you play where there is no power outlet and it is supposed to hold a charge for over 5 hours at full power usage. #It can also be used plugged in and that is how it charges up the battery. The built-in handle and wheels make it easy to get around which is a good thing since it weighs in at around 35 pounds. 

They can be pretty hard to find since they seem to sell out within days when they come in. #It's all I think I'll need and have been very pleased with it, since it seems to be a very nice, versatile package.

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## cooper4205

we use one of these Bose PA's with the ETSU bluegrass program- its pretty sweet and easy to set up

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## Richard Russell

Take a look at the Yamaha Stagepas 300. Musicians Friend has a lot of reviews on this one. I've had one for about a year and I love it. It is one of the easiest systems to run and it has plenty of power and super sound quality. It's also a classy looking system, something some of the small portable pa systems lack. I mount the speakers on stands in most settings, but, I have used it with the speakers on the floor, they tilt back like monitors(this system could be used as monitors for a larger sytem if I ever expand). Highly recommended great sound, and the price is not bad to boot!

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## TonyP

I've been looking at the Stagepass too, it has great reviews and I love those smaller Yamaha speakers. It is a little pricey compared to the others, but I think I'd go with that than the other stuff just because it's Yamaha. Their stuff usually sounds good and is bullet proof. It's nice to hear one of our own review it. I already have a great sys. so I don't need it but if the guys start bugging me for a reg. monitor sys.(we use IEM's) I'd tell them to get that.

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## Dan Adams

We've been using a Crate Limo; One DI and two mics. Works on AC or is battery driven when necessary. Works as a monitor when the other PA is in use. What a pleasant surprise for a small PA. Pushes across a sizable room! Dan

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## Fuzzyway

I have a Mackie SRM150 on order..they are not shipping those yet. I ordered it to use as a onstage monitor but am hopefull that it might serve as a small portable PA as well....we'll see. I'll let you know after I have had a chance to use it.

Best, fuzzy

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## Jim Nollman

If portable is the critical adjective here, I'd like to add that i have used the fender passport a lot in the past few years and it sure makes lugging equipment a whole lot easier to take for small gigs. It works just fine for a small club, a gallery, a restaurant, a party for 50 people. If you want to play outside for something like a wedding, you might consider something with a little more beef, and a whole lot more of a hassle to lug. The sound of the 2 different sizes of Passport I use, is just fine, although i never did use the mics that came bundled with it.

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## Shana Aisenberg

I have a Fishman Performer amp which works nicely as a mini PA with 3 inputs for many gigs.

Seth

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## MWM

I have a set of small powered speakers made by Crate. 80W each - PSM6P. I carry both in a single box and use them with a passive mixer. We've used them to play to crowds over 200 and been quite pleased. I've hauled enough large PA's to have learned smaller is better. The StagePas looks good but I don't believe it has phantom. Yamaha also makes some nice smaller powered speakers.

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## Steve Williams

We have used a Behringer KH1200 Keyboard Amp/Portable PA at small gigs for several years now with excellent results. Along with a single Kustom monitor, total cost was well under $300.00 and it works just fine for our duet. You can find them at MF, Music 123, Sam Ash, etc.

Steve Williams

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## funkyfinger

+1 on the stagepas. Incredible sound.I don't think any other systems in this size/price come close.

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## Richard Russell

I found out recently that Yamaha now offers the slightly larger Stagepas 500, which offers more power, more inputs and phantom power on the mic channels. Nice for those playing larger venues.

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## siren_20

At a recent gig my guitar player buddy and I used a small Centaur Acoustic PA amp... good power and it sounded quite nice for what it was.

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## Ed Goist

Thread bump.
Any good, new portable PAs come out since 2007?
I'm looking for a decent, *very portable* PA for small venues and open air performing for my four piece acoustic ensemble. We'll need at least 5 inputs (3 vox & 2 instruments). Right now, my front runner is the Fender Passport 300 Pro. Any other possibilities I should look at in the "up to $650" price category?
Thanks!

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## Tim2723

Plenty of new packages, but that "Up to $650" is a killer.  The hot runners right now in small and portable are the tower systems, and they start at a grand plus a mixer for the extra inputs.  The suitcase systems like the PassPort and StagePass are still as strong as ever with a couple of larger models available, but there hasn't been much actual development in the category since the tower systems took so much attention.

Any way to up the ante?

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Ed Goist

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## Ed Goist

Tim, we just formed, so I'm thinking we are still in the probationary period...  :Smile:  Upping the ante? Maybe 6 months or so down the road if the chemistry remains...

Can a microphone or instrument be plugged into one of the 1/4" RCA Stereo inputs on the PassPort?  I'm guessing it would work in just one channel, but that would be workable.

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## almeriastrings

> T
> 
> Can a microphone or instrument be plugged into one of the 1/4" RCA Stereo inputs on the PassPort?


No. You would probably be OK using these for a small keyboard input, but certainly not with a mic or guitar transducer. They are consumer line level, unbalanced (-10dBV). Intended mainly for routing a CD or MP3 player into the system. SOME guitars with built in active preamps MIGHT work, however, the impedances would be off and (I have not sen one) but I doubt there is much, if any, EQ available on this input.

I concur the Yamaha Stagepass systems are a very good bet in this type of rig. They sound good, are light (Class D amps) and are easy to carry.

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Ed Goist

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## allenhopkins

What I have done (for years) is use the _very_ basic Fender Passport 150, which has only three (oops, the new ones are down to _two_) mic inputs, *plus* a small Behringer five-channel mixer plugged into the "aux" inputs.

The new 150 apparently has two, what I would guess are "instrument," inputs with quarter-inch sockets, so you could use those.

My 150, which is over a decade old now, has plenty of "guts" for the purposes you describe.  I used it with the sub-mixer a couple weeks ago to amplify four musicians plus caller, for a Civil War dance outdoors under a big tent.  Worked fine.

You could get the whole package for probably less than $500 discounted.  Lots of small mixers available by a variety of manufacturers, if you share the general "Behringer skepticism" (mine's worked fine for 15 years, but, as they say, YMMV).

A consideration is that the Passport (at least my older one) doesn't have monitor send capabilities, so I have been using a Galaxy Audio Powered Hot Spot plugged into the sub-mixer.

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Ed Goist

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## Tim2723

Ok, probationary period. Got it.  I'm going to throw my vote in for the StagePass by Yamaha, but only because I'm a Yamaha guy.  I do the same with the Fishman/Bose thing, so take it as you will.

For the money, and especially for a probationary run, the Behringer mixers are hard to beat.  I'm not a super fan of them in general, but for the right people and the right reasons they're great.  I think you fit that bill in this case.  I've used two Berhinger products for several years with no complaints.  At least not about how well they do the job.

Personally I would get a mixer that has all the inputs (and more) that you need rather than mix and match inputs from the mixer and the PA head itself.  One wire going into the PA from the mixer, all inputs attached to the mixer.  It's a cleaner, easier approach and eliminates all the concerns about how many inputs are on the PA and what they are.  You just plug the mixer into the aux input and use the PA's main volume as the 'power amp'.  That way all the EQ controls respond the same, etc, etc.  You can also move the whole shebang from one PA to the next with no hassles.  Every amp has at least one input, and that's all you need when you do it that way.

Easy as pie and you can do it within your budget.

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Ed Goist

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## Dan Hulse

I tend to agree with Tim, that it is easier to adjust everything in one place. Our band uses a Bose L2 w/ tone module (4 inputs) and a small Behringer sub mixer to accomodate 4 vocals & 2 instruments. So it's doable, but can be a pain. The Bose is very convenient but it comes at a steep price tag. On the other hand, resale value is very high as well.

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Ed Goist

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## almeriastrings

> I tend to agree with Tim, that it is easier to adjust everything in one place.


Definitely.

I also think the current Behringer's are better than many give them credit for. Respectable performance, and highly affordable. The Soundcraft and Allen & Heath are a step up, but cost a fair bit more. For "weekend warriors", the Behringer's are not to be knocked.

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Ed Goist

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## foldedpath

> I also think the current Behringer's are better than many give them credit for. Respectable performance, and highly affordable. The Soundcraft and Allen & Heath are a step up, but cost a fair bit more. For "weekend warriors", the Behringer's are not to be knocked.


Oh, I'll knock them.  :Smile: 

Assuming we're talking about the compact analog models with low channel counts, the big objection I have with not just Behringer but also Mackie and other small mixers, is that they use proprietary "line lump" external power supplies. 

Power supplies are one of the most common points of failure with mixers, and those external ones can be a pain to replace. They're only used to keep the price as low as possible, with products that are marketed internationally with different local AC power. For just a _little_ more money, you can get a better compact mixer with an internal power supply.

For example, compare two compact mixers with 4 mic preamps -- the Behringer Xenyx 1202FX and the Allen & Heath Zed-10. In addition to much more flexible mid-sweep EQ, the A&H mixer has an internal power supply. All you need is a standard IEC power cord. Yeah, it's $140 more, but that's not much money to get a much better compact mixer. For $50 more, the Zed-10 FX adds effects like the Behringer. That's the mixer I use for our minimalist outdoor setups. Sometimes it's unavoidable to use gear with line lump power supplies (like my wireless receivers), but I'll avoid it wherever possible. Internal power supplies are just more reliable, in my experience.

For Ed's budget, an all-in-one compact system like the Passport might be the only option, maybe with an external compact mixer if there aren't enough inputs. Personally I'm not a fan of the all-in-one systems like the Passport, because you're locked into a fixed setup that can't be expanded (or reduced) for different situations, like a more modular PA system with separate components. But $650 isn't much to work with, so the Passport might be the only realistic option here.

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Dan Hulse, 

Ed Goist

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## almeriastrings

> Oh, I'll knock them. 
> 
> Assuming we're talking about the compact analog models with low channel counts, the big objection I have with not just Behringer but also Mackie and other small mixers, is that they use proprietary "line lump" external power supplies.


Not the current ones...

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## Dan Hulse

Good point FP. My Behringer does have a wall wart adapter. Weakest link? Hmmm, I've been contemplating the Allen & Heath for a while. Been using my (used) Behringer for over 2 years w/o issue, but now you have me thinking I should make it a priority purchase & keep the other for a back up.

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Ed Goist

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## foldedpath

> Not the current ones...


Not _some_ of the current ones, true. Those two are the slightly larger frame mixers with faders instead of rotary knobs for channel volume. Unless I'm mistaken, the smaller Behringer mixers with knob "faders" (more directly comparable to the A&H Zed-10) do use line lump power supplies. So the best thing is just to check first before buying. 

And I still think the relatively small price difference for a better brand of mixer is worth it, with these little compact mixers with low channel counts. Especially compared to the total cost of a PA system at this level. Anyone setting up their first PA will be spending more than that $150 difference on just cables and stands, and some things like mic and speaker stands can be bought secondhand. Why go cheap with the mixer, when it will end up as the centerpiece of the PA system? Just my perspective on things...

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Ed Goist

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## foldedpath

> Good point FP. My Behringer does have a wall wart adapter. Weakest link? Hmmm, I've been contemplating the Allen & Heath for a while. Been using my (used) Behringer for over 2 years w/o issue, but now you have me thinking I should make it a priority purchase & keep the other for a back up.


Backups are a good thing. I'm about to start packing for a big wedding gig tomorrow for our duo, where we're setting up two separate, small PA systems. One is the larger setup indoors for the post-ceremony cocktail hour, using our Soundcraft MFXi8 mixer and K10 speakers. The other is outdoors for the ceremony, using the Zed-10FX mixer and one or two ZXA-1 speakers. We normally use those as monitors, but they're good for outdoor events like this, where we need a low visual profile and low power draw. As a backup, I'm bringing my old (original series) Mackie 1202 compact mixer. 

The cool thing about a modular PA with passive mixers and powered speakers, is that as long as I have one backup mixer held in reserve, then no single thing can fail and take down the gig. If one powered speaker dies, there are others to replace it. Or we just fall back on one less speaker. The mixer is the only mission-critical gadget, so there is always a backup on hand. I'm fairly paranoid about this kind of thing. 
 :Smile:

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## UsuallyPickin

Gotta give the Fender Passport two thumbs up. It's portable. It's light . THe driver and speakers snap together into one unit. It's got a channel set up to add a small mixer for adding channels. It's got a line output if you want to add a powered monitor. THe new ones have a slot for a thumb drive if you want to record your preformances. THe stands are aluminum so they are light also. Three trips in from the vehicle and you have all you need for a small gig. The Passport is sized at 150w 300w and 500w, the larger the amp the more channels are built in. Bose and Fishman make nice rigs as well. They are a bit pricier......... R/

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## TonyP

I don't know if this thread has jumped the rails and is now not holding to the OP, but, here's another cheap/small option:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...onitor-speaker

Yeah, it's Berhinger, but I've heard one, and it's almost exactly like my Mackie 150. Hard to get any more compact that this. My experience is if it hangs together for a couple of gigs, it's probably good to go for years. For vocals, and just fiddle it would work good. Works good for guitar too, just don't want to run bass through it.

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## Tim2723

"Line lump" power supplies as a problem?  Sometimes I think we really have to stretch to find things to complain about.  I have a half-dozen of those in constant service one place or another (including the one that allows me to type this) and not one has failed.  I'll agree about the proprietary set up issues that make them hard if not impossible to replace, but a significant failure mode?  Seriously?  And what if they do fail?  A $100 mixer bites the dust.  Really now...Honestly.

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Jim

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## Barry Wilson

I looked at the fender passport an was really leaning to a set of those mackie 150's. I like the mic stand mount to use as monitors for band situation, chaining and whatnot. but never heard much about the fenders until here. hmmm

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## Michael Weaver

We use a Peavey Escort 3000 which is the five channel 300 watt one. Check it out. We have not had any problems with it.

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Ed Goist, 

Jon Hall

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## foldedpath

> "Line lump" power supplies as a problem?  
> 
> (snippage)
> 
> Seriously?  And what if they do fail?  A $100 mixer bites the dust.  Really now...Honestly.


Right... honestly!

If a $100 mixer bites the dust in the middle of a gig, then that's a problem for us when we're playing something like a wedding ceremony, where _things just have to work_, or else the bride is waiting to walk down the aisle and no music is happening. There isn't much slack for gear failure on some gigs like that. So I don't buy $100 mixers... or any other gear in the "so cheap it's easier to throw out than repair" category. It's about peace of mind on the gig, and being able to focus on the music and not worry about the PA gear (like I said, paranoid!).

Bringing it back to the OP -- Ed's budget is tight, but that may not mean he has to buy the very cheapest gear out there and consider it a throwaway item.

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## Ed Goist

> We use a Peavey Escort 3000 which is the five channel 300 watt one. Check it out. We have not had any problems with it.


Michael; I've always really liked Peavey stuff, and this looks ideal for us! $700 should be doable.
Thanks for the recommendation. 
A couple of follow-up questions:
* I see this weighs 64#. Have you found its portability acceptable?
* What size venues have you played with this?
* Have you used it in an open-air, outdoor setting? If so, how did it do?

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## Michael Weaver

> Michael; I've always really liked Peavey stuff, and this looks ideal for us! $700 should be doable.
> Thanks for the recommendation.
> A couple of follow-up questions:
> * I see this weighs 64#. Have you found its portability acceptable?
> * What size venues have you played with this?
> * Have you used it in an open-air, outdoor setting? If so, how did it do?


Yes it is a little heavy but has handles on both ends and one in the middle which allows two people to carry it at a time if needed. It collapses down very nicely and everything stores away great. 

We have played a good size restaurant/bar that was hosting outside patrons to a wine tasting. It was a large room with lots of people walking in and out talking loudly and we still had to manage the output volume. It is a loud system when you need it to be. 

We have never played an outside gig with it but I have set it up outside in my front yard which is three acres long and you could hear it fine. I think it's a good choice and you won't be disappointed. The only thing I didn't care for were the speaker stands. They are a little flimsy but they do have upgrades for them. We still use the originals but they make me a little nervous when people walk close to them. Tell me what you think once you get it.

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Ed Goist

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## allenhopkins

> ...Personally I would get a mixer that has all the inputs (and more) that you need rather than mix and match inputs from the mixer and the PA head itself.  One wire going into the PA from the mixer, all inputs attached to the mixer.  It's a cleaner, easier approach and eliminates all the concerns about how many inputs are on the PA and what they are.  You just plug the mixer into the aux input and use the PA's main volume as the 'power amp'.  That way all the EQ controls respond the same, etc, etc.  You can also move the whole shebang from one PA to the next with no hassles.  Every amp has at least one input, and that's all you need when you do it that way...


Concur; that's what I do with my little jerry-rig system, except for the _very few_ times I need more than five inputs.  And, if I only need the three mic inputs that come with the Passport, I can dispense with the sub-mixer.  Only problem is that I'm also precluding the possibility of separate monitor send.

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Ed Goist

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## almeriastrings

There's no doubt "Wall Wart" and "Line Lump" PSU's can have reliability issues. The connectors on them, and sharp bends at cable entry-exit points  also tend to be a real weak point, and yes, the very smallest Behringers (and Yamaha's, incidentally, as well as various other makes) do use those. An inbuilt PSU is certainly preferable.

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## Astro

For small acoustic venues and with 4 or fewer musicians there is some merit to just letting each musician bring their own acoustic amp to play through. Most already have one--or should. Of course each amp must have 2 or 3 inputs with seperate eq's.

There is the advantage that everyone carries their own stuff and with a dry run everyone knows how to eq their set up. I use an old California Blond for this but my bandmates had new Fishman Loud Box's. Inexpensive, very light, sound great, quick straight forward set up. The bass player did bring a bass amp too and he and the drummer both sang through the same acoustic amp for their vocals (but used separate mics). Most of the time the volume on everyones amp was pretty low. These were small restaurant/bar venues. The Loudbox amps were raised knee high and right beside the owner. My Blond weighs a ton but has a kickstand to tilt it back on the floor. The mic stand in front of each of us. Great sound quality. Good separation, you could tell who was singing what because it sounded like it was coming from the right person.

90% of the bands I see around town play too loud. Way too much time is waisted on PA set up and mic checks. We could start playing 10 minutes after walking into a place and no bickering on unloading or set up as everyone was responsible for their own. Of course we would help whoever needed it (always helped the drummer set up).

Something to think about.

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Ed Goist, 

houseworker

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## Tim2723

Ed, if you don't book any weddings or other critical gigs for the next six months with your probationary band that may not stay together anyway, do you think a Fender Passport and a small mixer would work for you, wall warts and all?  And if it's a success (and I for one hope it will be), would you be able to invest in a better mixer?

I'm sure all the experienced pros, myself included, would prefer to see you start out with a budget of about three times the stated amount.  That way we could help you set up in golden fashion.  But with small budgets come some risks, especially reliablitiy issues that may or may not ever happen.  How much risk are you willing to take on?

Just as FP and Almeria have their reservations about external PSUs, I've got some concerns about the Peavey Escort.  I've heard both good and bad things about them.  But then again, we've all heard some bad things about practically anything.  Personally, I carry two or three redundant backups for every critical component.

I'm probably more paranoid than FP and the others put together.  I still breath a sigh of relief when my gear lights up, even though I've got two more backups in the car.

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## TonyP

Thumbs up Tim, Mr. Voice of Reason, and get 'er done. 

Personally, this is why a buy used gear. It's already been "burned in" so if it's hung together this long, I'm usually good to go for what I need. But you also have to know who and what you are dealing with. If it's been gig'd hard and has beer stains on it, I'll pass. If it's been in some guys studio and he's upgrading, I want it. I also like to buy stuff I can use in a bigger system. This is why I was mentioning the Mackie 150. It has a small mixer built in, and phantom. Then it can be used as a monitor on my main system. The all in one's mentioned bother me not only because of the wall warts(which I hate because they can induce buzz in the system, and are a pain because they "eat" up a power strip because of their size) but because it's a passive type speaker. And like FP pointed out, if that one unit goes down, you are totally dead in the water. The only way the show goes on is acoustically. Which isn't always an option.

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## Tim2723

If I had to risk it with a wart or a powered mixer, I'd take the wart.  I used a powered mixer for 10 years and it never failed, but I worried all the time.  I never actually worried about wall warts until just now.

EDIT:  Having thought about it, if I were Ed I'd be more concerned with the band lasting six months than the gear holding up.

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## Jim

Lots of used 8ch powered mixers out there , Peavey, Kustom, ect with enough left over for some 10 or 12in speaker cabs. at your budget.

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## foldedpath

> Personally, this is why a buy used gear. It's already been "burned in" so if it's hung together this long, I'm usually good to go for what I need. But you also have to know who and what you are dealing with. If it's been gig'd hard and has beer stains on it, I'll pass. If it's been in some guys studio and he's upgrading, I want it.


Buying used can be a good option when you're starting out. Unfortunately there is often a "Catch 22" where someone starting out has the least amount of experience required to evaluate the condition (or likely condition) of used gear, before buying it. That's where a more knowledgeable friend, or a forum like this one, can help.

The other problem with used gear in this particular market, is that recent advances in reducing size and weight -- like Class D amps, neodymium speakers, increased use of plastics in cabinets -- have only been available for a few years, and may not show up as often on the used market. There has been a wave of people upgrading from their older, heavier gear... especially as the Boomer population ages into retirement and wants more lightweight gear. That's why I sold off my old, original series 52 lb. Mackie SRM450 speakers a few years ago. The speakers I use now weigh 19 lbs. for the ZXA-1 monitors and 32 lbs. for the K10 mains. Much easier to lift and pack, at my advancing geezer age. 

This may not apply to something like a Passport or a Fishman tower system that's designed to be lightweight anyway. But if you're shopping a conventional system and looking for used gear, be careful about getting stuck with something heavier than you need. That is, unless you're a young squirt with a strong back. Or can hire someone like that as a roadie.
 :Wink:

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## Tim2723

Does the budget includ the speaker stands for any of these suitcase systems?  I don't think the Fenders and Yamahas come with stands, do they? And cables?  Those are the sneaky expenses that git ya.

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## Ed Goist

> For small acoustic venues and with 4 or fewer musicians there is some merit to just letting each musician bring their own acoustic amp to play through. Most already have one--or should. Of course each amp must have 2 or 3 inputs with seperate eq's....snip...


This option was outside my "acoustic bands need a PA" and "Mic must be run through PAs" paradigms, and it could work really well for us. The other guitarist and I have a decent collection of amps, and we could easily set-up three: one for each instrument and one with two channels for the vocals.

I'm thinking the wisest choice might be to work with this for a while and see how things go. Thanks for the great suggestions.

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## mandroid

using my ETEK  and 2 Carvin PM5 speakers , which sit on modified Mic stands  as my Computer  monitor ..
off the sound card jack..  fan is humming without audio input, now.. 

Haven't used the E-V SX 80 passive speakers for  a while,   they are nice  products too..
 molded cabinet, 8" + a horn..

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## allenhopkins

> Does the budget includ the speaker stands for any of these suitcase systems?  I don't think the Fenders and Yamahas come with stands, do they? And cables?  Those are the sneaky expenses that git ya.


Musician's Friend is selling a *Passport 150 package* with speaker stands, plus an Audio-Technica mic and stand, one mic cable.  All the Passport systems come with (pretty thin, but usable) speaker cables.  The MF outfit is about $20 more than the standard discount price for the PA ($419 vs. $399).

The speaker stand brand is "Musician's Gear," which is unfamiliar to me, but the Passport speakers are pretty lightweight so I wouldn't be too apprehensive about "off brand" stands.  When I got my Passport I had a pair of Ultimate stands for my former system -- plenty strong! -- but I had to buy two tapered poles for the stands because the sockets on the Passport speakers are smaller than on most heavier speakers.  As I recall two replacement reversible poles cost me more than what MF's extra charge is for two speaker stands _plus_ mic, stand and mic cable.

Not a big fan of the changes to the 150, though I guess the speaker voicing is "upgraded" -- changed, anyway.  The new ones are four-channel rather than three, but two channels are quarter-inch connectors only, which leads me to think they may be high-Z and not as usable for mics, unless one uses line transformers to connect XLR cables to them.  There's a standard docking feature for Fender wireless mics -- which the old ones didn't have, and which I found (on my old Passport 250, since traded) one could not retrofit.

Fender markets Passports for non-musical applications pretty aggressively; mine has a "vocal priority" feature which partially mutes "background music" (presumably coming in on channels other than #1) when there's signal coming in on Channel #1.  Use for this would be if someone were giving a presentation, and wanted the other channels to "quiet" when he/she was speaking.  As you might expect, this isn't a feature for which I have a lot of use...

So: my experience has been that the 150 is a rugged, useful system, with plenty of projection and relatively decent sound, though the six-inch "woofers" mean that bass response is somewhat restricted.  When I need more "bells and whistles" (monitor sends, phantom power, more sophisticated EQ), I plug in a separate mixer to provide them.  It's a jury-rig expedient, but workable.

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## almeriastrings

It can work OK for small gigs. Separate acoustic amps can, in effect, function very much like a small PA. They do need to be _acoustic_ amps, however... these have separate tweeters and LF drivers + crossover and are designed for a clear, crisp relatively accurate sound. Standard electric amps tend to have only one driver and are very 'colored' in the sound they produce (intentionally so). These tend to sound pretty bad if used as a PA.

I have personally never really liked the sound of the Fender Passport systems I've heard, incidentally. I always though the Yamaha Stagepass options were audibly superior. Much cleaner and with better headroom.

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## Tim2723

Allen, thanks for the link.  I didn't get that til I dumped my buffer.  Some nice deals there.

Ed, if you're considering using existing acoustic amps for a PA, let me make a suggestion:

Instead of everybody having their own, simplify your life by gaining unified control over the system:  Use two acoustic amps, which are basically nothing more than eleborate powered speakers anyway, and make them 'slave amps' to a good quality mixer.

Go back to what I said earlier about having all the inputs going to a mixer and that output to the amp.  (It was one of the few things I said that they all agreed with! LOL).  Set the amps to 'flat response' and run cables from left and right out of the mixer to the two amps.  You now have a small PA that uses the amps you own, plus you have more than enough money to invest in a quality mixer that will serve you for life, and you don't have all the problems of everybody twiddling their own knobs.

I think it's a better idea than an inexpensive PA.  It might even be something Tony would have thought up!

----------

Ed Goist

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## Jon Hall

One of my bandmates has a Peavy Escort. It has worked very well. The 300 watts is powerful enough for small - medium venues. Four channels have XLR/1/4" inputs and it has a fifth channel with RCA inputs. I ran a line from my acoustic amp to the fifth channel and it worked well. The model we have also has RCA outputs that we use to the send the entire mix to a amp as a monitor.

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## TonyP

Wow, I wish I would have thought of that Tim. I totally agree with the unified sound theory. I personally have never experienced a balanced sounding band with their own amps, only the opposite. Everybody seems to be deaf to their instrument/voice so it's tough to self regulate. So all that would be needed for Ed would be a mixer.....brilliant, get 'er done.

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## foldedpath

My $.02... I don't think using acoustic amps as a substitute PA is a great idea, unless it's just for a few months of "test drive" for a band that may not hold together. 

Even with the unified sound theory approach -- a mixer driving the amps through their (hopefully) FX send/return inputs -- you've still got the problem that people tend to place these amps as if they were electric guitar amps: on the floor, behind the musicians. That's a recipe for feedback hell, if there is a vocal mic. And yet, the amps have to face forward to serve the audience. Worse yet, that low position means you're blasting the people in the front rows, while those further back in the audience can't hear much. 

There is a reason why a conventional PA system puts the speakers high up on stands (for more even area coverage), and forward of the band (for feedback control). 

As much as I'm not a fan of the Passport or StagePas all-in-one compact PA's, I think someone new to running a band PA would be better served with one of those setups, instead of trying to jury-rig something from band members' acoustic amps. Unless it's just a trial run for a new band, to avoid spending on a PA right away. Then sure, try it and see how it works. Just be aware of the drawbacks. Maybe use one acoustic amp just as a vocal monitor, placed in front of the mic to control feedback, and all the other acoustic amps angled away from the vocal mic's pickup pattern. It might work... maybe...

----------


## TonyP

I agree, but there is NO free lunch. And I think Tim was thinking like I was, how to do this the best/cheapest way possible. And you do learn a lot when you do this. I'm always about how to use existing gear and take it to the band level. 

Yeah, they are probably not all the same acoustic amp, so they won't sound matched. I was taking it for granted that you wouldn't leave them behind you like typical amps, you'd put them out in front of you. So it's good you brought that up. Even on chairs are better than sitting on the floor out in front. But this kind of lo buck approach will get you by that first couple of gigs, which are the most dangerous for band cohesion. There are several "speed bumps" to band cohesion, and those should be factored into investment into a PA.

Not everybody wants to have a PA laying about that's not being used. And no matter if it's only been used a couple of times, you won't be able to turn it over for anywhere close to what you paid for it. And after you have worked together for a while, I think you'll get a better idea of what you want. I learned what components work for scaling up and down according to the gig.

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## Tim2723

Those are all good things to point out. All the usual advice applies:  speakers away from mics,  up off the floor, all that.  I think it can be done with a little work.  As I mentioned earlier, If I were Ed I'd be more concerned about the band lasting than the gear.  The only thing is that you want to get a good enough sound that you get re-booked.  It's something I'd try first before taking it on stage.  You definitely don't want to figure this all out at showtime. Like a lot of us, I started out with the most cobbled together mish-mash of equipment possible.  I don't do that anymore, but I did get started.   The whole idea is far from optimal, but I could see getting started this way.

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## Ed Goist

Tim, using two amps as "powered speakers" is genius.

We played at a music-oriented church service this morning, and the sound guy there recommended we use either a "powered mixer to speaker combo" or a "mixer to powered speakers" combo (which is what the church had, and it sounded pretty good). It seems that the one thing almost everyone has recommended is the use of a mixer.

The other guitarist & I still had a hard time hearing each other today though we were much closer together.

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## foldedpath

> The other guitarist & I still had a hard time hearing each other today though we were much closer together.


In a situation like that photo with no monitors and (I assume?) two main speakers ahead of you and facing the audience, one trick that can work is to "toe in" the main speakers a little towards the band. Not too much, because it compromises coverage for the audience, but you can get a little bleed off the side of the speakers so you can hear yourselves better.

----------

Ed Goist

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## TonyP

I would suggest a different stage plot. You two guitars next to each other, the two singers next to each other. Being on opposite sides of the stage with no monitors is really tough. I always need to be next to the bass player no matter what. If the bass player and I can't hear each other we are both in a world of hurt. It's also nice to be close so you can say something in the ear out of earshot of the mic's.

----------

Ed Goist

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## almeriastrings

If that was the room you were playing in, it is quite challenging. Lots of hard surfaces..... resonant spaces..... very little acoustic 'damping' (absorbers). A lot of bodies helps in that situation.... preferably live ones  :Grin: 

Getting a nice sound, adequate levels and avoiding feedback is always an issue in environments like that. I think we need a new pressure group: Pickers for Good Acoustic Environments.

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## Tim2723

That room makes me cringe.

You were closer together than usual?  Really?  I would have said you were spread out way too far for playing in a room like that.  Try having the instruments next to each other and get in tighter.  Personally, I'd like to see you take up half that space with a set up like you're using.  On a proper stage with a line of monitors you can do a lot more, but under those circumstances you need to make things as easy as you can.  Get in close and stay close is my philosophy.

You can toe-in the speakers for better coverage.  Since the instruments have pickups that's a real blessing.  It looks like you only have two vocal mics.  I would recommend getting those on stands rather than hand held.  In acoustically tough environments you need to keep those mics steady.  You don't want them moving around even a little since you can pick up all kinds of reflections.  Get them in one place where they work well and keep them there.

The others may disagree with this one, but I hate folding chairs for performers.  It puts the mics too low.  Try to sit on tall stools if you can't stand.  Just my two cents.

Are you the guy in the white shirt or the black?

----------

Ed Goist

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## foldedpath

> The others may disagree with this one, but I hate folding chairs for performers.  It puts the mics too low.  Try to sit on tall stools if you can't stand.  Just my two cents.


Curious... why would the mics be too low, as long as appropriate shortie mic stands and booms are used? Are you thinking floor reflections? That can sometimes be a problem when recording (solved by throwing a small rug down), but I haven't run into problems doing live sound reinforcement.

I think the one big advantage of tall stools (or playing standing up) is presentation for the audience. They can see you better, especially if you're not on a platform or elevated stage. 

On the other hand, a standard folding chair has some advantages over a stool. I can place a printed set list on the floor and still read it, for one thing. It's usually easy to find spare folding chairs supplied at the venues we play, so we don't have to bring our own. And when we do have to bring our own chairs to the gig, folding chairs fit better in the car than folding stools. Comfortable folding stools tend to be on the bulky side.

There are some ergonomic advantages too. Sitting on a standard low chair allows thigh support of the mandolin, like the way these guys are doing it: 





Also check out the way Thile sits in his YouTube video playing the Bach E Major Prelude. There are stools with foot-rests that would allow bringing your knees up, but now we're getting into specialized (and usually bulky/heavy) stools that I just don't want to carry to the gig.

Anyway, I don't find any particular PA-related problems with playing seated on a folding chair, other than having to be careful not to brush the clip-on mic clamp against my right leg. When using external mics, I have 3-section K&M mic stands with short booms that work fine at a low position.

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## foldedpath

Quick addition to the above comments: One thing I do dislike about the way some people are mic'd when playing on folding chairs, is when the band or the sound company uses standard two-piece, tall mic stands and long booms, with the boom angled down towards the player's instrument at 45 degrees. 

That just makes for a distracting "forest of mic stands" effect and blocks the audience's view of the musicians. It looks unprofessional (IMO). With the right hardware for the job, low mic position isn't distracting. With clip-on mics or pickups, there is no distraction at all.

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## Paul Kotapish

> . . . when the band or the sound company uses standard two-piece, tall mic stands and long booms, with the boom angled down towards the player's instrument at 45 degrees. That just makes for a distracting "forest of mic stands" effect and blocks the audience's view of the musicians. It looks unprofessional (IMO). With the right hardware for the job, low mic position isn't distracting. With clip-on mics or pickups, there is no distraction at all.


I also dislike the distracting forest of mic stands, but I don't like a clip-on mic, either. I want to be able to move the instrument in relation to the mic, so some sort of stand is required. For seated gigs, I keep a micro stand and mini boom handy. Works really well and is minimally intrusive. The bulk of the apparatus is below knee level--seated--with just the end of the boom and the mic reaching up to the sound hole. And the solid cast-iron base occupies almost no floor space.

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## mrmando

My pa was never small, but in his current state he's very portable. God rest his soul.

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Ed Goist

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## foldedpath

On the subject of small, unobtrusive mic stands for seated players... the best setup I've seen for "invisible" external mics are the Sennheiser and Schoeps accessories for their modular small condensers. The mic head can be detached from the XLR body, and a long/thin tube is used in the middle that carries the electrical connection. Here's the Schoeps version:

http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/rc

Sennheiser has a wider range of different tube lengths, clamps and weighted base for their 8040 small condenser (click the "Accessories" link at the left):

http://en-us.sennheiser.com/condense...brass-mkh-8040 

I've seen this type of mic used a few times in YouTube video productions where musicians are playing "live" for something like the Transatlantic Sessions, and they want to keep the mics unobtrusive for the cameras. Very slick, although not cheap... especially the Schoeps mics. The Sennheiser 8040 mic and accessories are less expensive, but still pretty stratospheric for us weekend warrior types (although that 8040 is a _great_ mic). Me, I'm using the shortie (3-section) K&M mic stand with their short boom, until I hit the lottery.

I know this is some high-end stuff here, but if the open-ended topic is "small portable PA," then your mic stand can't get much smaller and more portable than this.
 :Smile:

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## allenhopkins

> ...Comfortable folding stools tend to be on the bulky side...


I've been using *these* for years; two of 'em always in the back seat of my Honda Element.  At $14 a pop ($16 here with sales tax), I consider them bargains.

*Please note:* _not_ a sales pitch for WalMart.

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## TonyP

I've cut down my standard mic stands, because short stands by the same manufacturers are almost twice as much! go figgur. Regular stands are made to overhead mic drums, so I cut a foot off of the telescoping bottoms and off the booms. This way instead of coming in sideways to get to the proper height, you can put them directly in front of you and telescope them to the proper height. This drastically cuts down on the forest. 

I don't do chairs either. I'm sorry, but there's been all this discussion about stage garb, well sitting down is just plain 'ol boring. And talk about a lot of extra weight and clutter to haul! Then you add music stands, and you might as well erect a wall in front of you and the audience. Seems mighty silly to be talking about portable PA, when stands, chairs and stuff are probably twice the weight and 4x's the volume as like a StagePass. Just my humble not worth 2c opinion.

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## Ed Goist

> ...snip...Are you the guy in the white shirt or the black?


Black shirt. Far left.

I really should add this was a hugely positive experience for our new group...Great way to get out of the gate!  :Smile:  We were overwhelmed with compliments from audience members afterwards, and had several inquiries regarding possible future gigs. All things considered, the sound complications were a very minor annoyance.

Thanks to everyone for all the great feedback in this thread. I'll go on record as saying that the topic of good live sound for an acoustic ensemble is the most complicated and tangled issue I've ever researched.

Oh, speaking of future gigs...We'll be playing the county Farmer's Market this coming Saturday morning. It is held on the lawn of this same church. There is no stage, so we'll likely go straight acoustic, but we'll get a feel for our sound outdoors.

Thanks again all.

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## foldedpath

> I don't do chairs either. I'm sorry, but there's been all this discussion about stage garb, well sitting down is just plain 'ol boring.


Boring for whom? It's up to the music alone to carry the excitement in traditions like Irish trad, acoustic Blues, Classical, and many others where the tradition is (usually) to play seated. There are exceptions, like Natalie MacMaster dancing around the stage with her fiddle. We can't all dance like Natalie. 
 :Wink: 

Sometimes, a group like ours get hired _not_ to be the center of attention, just playing background music for an event's reception or cocktail hour. Chairs are fine for that. Other times, it is more of a "look at me" type of performance where you're trying to hold the audience's full attention. Believe me, I understand what a challenge it can be, to do that kind of thing while sitting in chairs. Still, some bands manage it just fine, like The Chieftains. Not everyone can be The Chieftains either, but a little stage patter and audience interaction can go a long way. And then, hopefully, you grab 'em the rest of the way with the music. 




> And talk about a lot of extra weight and clutter to haul!


There is that, but it can be a good trade-off for comfort while playing. Also as I mentioned, many venues will have folding chairs on-hand. It's not exactly a rare item. 




> Then you add music stands, and you might as well erect a wall in front of you and the audience.


Yeah, I agree about music stands, at least for the performance-type gigs, and not a "potted plant" gig like a restaurant where it's common to see jazz guitarists or harp players reading off sheet music. Aside from just the visual clutter, I think a music stand looks like you aren't ready for the gig, and it takes your eyes away from interaction with band mates and the audience.

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## woodwizard

> we use one of these Bose PA's with the ETSU bluegrass program- its pretty sweet and easy to set up


Yup! We use a Bose system too...  L1 Model 2... they're not cheap but are very nice for acoustics

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## Russ Jordan

I've always played standing up, but have to say I always enjoyed seeing Doc Watson, Norman Blake, and the John Hartford Stringband playing while sitting.  The last time I saw Hartford he was very very sick, but had this rhythm thing going with his feet and had the audience in his hand.

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## roysboy

Mackie SRM 150 . I've used it as a monitor and it's superb. 
Bigger but not BIG ? Bose L1 compact . BEST small system I've ever heard ....around 950.00 bucks , though .

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## almeriastrings

One tip for anyone putting together such a system is to go for a_ high quality_ mixer with a bit more capacity than you think you'll ever need. Believe me, it will be needed one day. For something or someone. It is always a trade off between capacity and physical size, but three mixers I'd especially recommend are the Soundcraft EFX8 and a couple of A&H ZED models. The Soundcraft has 8 full mic pres of excellent quality, nice EQ, some of the best reverbs to be found at anything like the price, great build quality in a very small footprint for what it offers, and just plain sounds really good. It has channel mutes, and separate channel inserts (incredibly useful), good metering and nice faders. A very well designed quality mixer that will serve you well for many years. The only thing it lacks is a HP filter on the pres and an illuminated mute indicator. Apart from that, it is pretty much the perfect small format mixer. You can get both those features on another model, but you lose quite a bit of the size advantage that makes the EFX-8 so easy to pack and use. 

http://www.soundcraft.com/products/product.aspx?pid=148

The A&H Zed's are also excellent. For acoustic duo/solo gigging, the ZED 10's are excellent little boards. Quality mic pres. Good EQ. Good FX (I'd have to say I think in that department, the Soundcraft's FX are somewhat better still). Two versions are available, the original ZED 10FX (knobs, not faders, but super-compact):

http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Produc...roductId=ZED10

and a new version with faders:

http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Produc...ctId=ZED6010FX

They're both very nice. One special feature these have is a pair of high impedance 1/4 jack inputs.  You can plug a passive (or active) transducer straight into these - no other preamp or DI required. As you would probably be pretty close to the mixer anyway, this is very useful. If you can manage with 4 mics or a pair of mics and DI's, these are great sounding, reliable and good value mixers. 

If you need more inputs (and 4 really is very limited), then the newer ZED60-14FX is closer to the Soundcraft EFX8 in capacity terms. One thing it lacks vs. the Soundcraft are channel inserts. Inserts on the main outs only. 

http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Produc...ctId=ZED6014FX

You can't go wrong with any of these. They're all great.

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Ed Goist

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## foldedpath

I can endorse what Almeriastrings just posted about Soundcraft and Allen & Heath compact mixers. 

Of the ones mentioned, I've owned the Soundcraft EFX-8 and A&H Zed 10FX. Both are very good build quality and sound great. Soundcraft and A&H are also the only mixers in this price range (AFAIK) that include sweep mid-EQ, which is very useful for acoustic instruments. 

There is one quirk in the design of the EFX-8 that should be mentioned, though. For some reason... probably just trying to keep the panel size as small as possible... the EFX-8 has one AUX bus that can be used for monitors, but there is no output level control for that AUX send... just a bare send jack. That's a problem if you use powered monitors (like we do), because you can only control the monitor level at the mixer. Even the little A&H Zed-10 FX has a volume knob for its single AUX output. It works fine with powered monitor speakers.

So, while I hated to give up the compact size of the EFX-8, I sold it and replaced it with the slightly larger (and heavier) Soundcraft MFXi-8. That model does have an AUX output volume control so we can adjust the monitor levels. It also adds a few other things I can use, like LED lights for the channel mutes, and some things I wish it didn't have, like the extra submix busses (for bands with drums or keyboards, I assume). So if you use, or think you might eventually use powered monitors, go for the MFXi8 mixer. It's only a little larger and heavier, and only $100 more than the EFX-8.

Between Soundcraft and Allen & Heath in this size range, I think they're both very good bang-for-buck and will handle plenty of road abuse. 

And then... there are the new digital wunderkind mixers like the Mackie DL1608, the Line6 StageScape with the cartoon interface, the new Behringer X-series, the new Soundcraft and Allen & Heath digital 19" rack mixers... it's a brave new world out there. All of this will eventually trickle down into sub-$500 compact mixers like we're talking about here. But there is still something to be said for the reliability and ease of use under combat audio conditions with an analog mixer, where you can see what's going on at a glance, and don't have to fuss with a digital display. I'm a fool for shiny digital gadgets, but you'll have to pry my little analog Zed-10FX mixer from my cold dead hands. Also my antique Seattle-era Mackie 1202 mixer that now serves as a last-ditch backup, which like the Eveready Energizer Bunny just keeps going, and going, and going....

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## Tim2723

Yet another vote for a quality mixer such as A&H or Sound Craft for this application.  Indeed, much of what has been discussed centers around the choice of mixer for a setup like the one in question.

And just for my two cents, I couldn't agree more about the Bose Compact with a small high quality mixer in these scenarios.  Excellent sound, portability, etc.  A bit more than the Asker's budget allows though.

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## Nick Royal

Does anyone make use of the small AER amp? Looks interesting...but not cheap.
Nick

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## mandroid

They are a solo amp are they not?. self monitor  ..  have a  pre out jack to send to the house mixer

Cost maybe Better if you already live in the EU zone. And earn Euro's .. 

Schertler's amplifiers are  another option .. Small but high powered.

since I got my Roland AC60, they expanded the line , now theres an AC 90 , 40; 
 and 33 that can run off 8AA batteries.

FWIW, AC 60 can be used as a PA cab, it has a top hat socket in the bottom, 
for a speaker stand..

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## foldedpath

> Does anyone make use of the small AER amp? Looks interesting...but not cheap.
> Nick


I have the smallest version: the AER Alpha. I bought it several years ago, when I was in a trio with a fiddler playing Irish music. We would sometimes play small venues like coffee shops, where the fiddle had plenty of volume to play unamplified, but the mandolin needed just a little boost to be heard against the fiddle. The Alpha amp was perfect for that; running at a low "subtle reinforcement" level and tucked behind my chair. 

My only complaint is the lack of a notch filter for feedback contro, but with an amp this small, and the situations you'd be likely to use it in, it's easy enough to avoid feedback problems with amp placement. It also has a pole socket on the bottom, so it can be raised for more even room coverage if you need it. 

It's still no substitute for a PA, and with my current duo we don't use it. When we need minimalist amplification now, we just bring one of our powered 8" monitor speakers (Electro-Voice ZA1) and use it with a Zed-10FX compact mixer. That combo has more channels, better EQ and effects, more output power, and a wider frequency response than the Alpha (or any "acoustic amp," really). And it's not that much extra gear to carry. 

I still like the Alpha for what it is, but it stays home now as a practice amp for things like my 4-string acoustic electric mandola, or my S.O. and her Zeta electric fiddle. 

The larger AER Compact 60 version of the amp adds separate EQ for the second channel, and a little more power. So it's a good choice as a more mid-sized acoustic amp if you don't need a full PA system, or even a mini-PA like our single powered speaker + mixer.

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## Mark Seale

> Does anyone make use of the small AER amp? Looks interesting...but not cheap.
> Nick


This is a good unit, but I purchased and play through an Acoustic Image Corus.  It has two discreet channels that can be mixed separately and PLENTY of power.

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## Ed Goist

Update: The manager of our local Indi music store (he's a real straight shooter who has always _"done me good"_) is recommending a pair of powered speakers (forgot the brand name...It's three initials, and the speakers are on sale...12" & 15", 200W each) and an 8 channel mixer. That's likely what we'll do to get things started. I'll post an update once the system is in place.

Thanks again for all the valuable comments here.

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## Terry Allan Hall

> Just looking for something small-ish to run vocals and a fiddle through.
> 
> I dont need anything remotely professional, its for a jam at a Sr. Citizens center...
> 
> Anyone used this one?
> Nady


I play 2-3 nursing homes per week, and have found that the Crate Limo 50 is perfect for projecting my voice, racked harmonica and guitars, and the built-in battery, good for about 6 hours, is often very useful! 

And, for Farmer's Markets/swap meets/etc., it goes on a stand handily.

----------

Ed Goist

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## Tim2723

> Update: The manager of our local Indi music store (he's a real straight shooter who has always _"done me good"_) is recommending a pair of powered speakers (forgot the brand name...It's three initials, and the speakers are on sale...12" & 15", 200W each) and an 8 channel mixer. That's likely what we'll do to get things started. I'll post an update once the system is in place.
> 
> Thanks again for all the valuable comments here.


Well,  congrats Ed.  But I must admit that's quite a departure from your original idea of a small suitcase system.  A pair of 12" or 15" powered cabs and an eight channel mixer is the start of a good conventional system and will probably have a lot more capablity in the long run, but why the change of heart?

----------


## almeriastrings

15" speakers are a lot to haul. It gets old really fast...

Been there. Done that.

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## Ed Goist

> Well,  congrats Ed.  But I must admit that's quite a departure from your original idea of a small suitcase system.  A pair of 12" or 15" powered cabs and an eight channel mixer is the start of a good conventional system and will probably have a lot more capablity in the long run, but why the change of heart?





> 15" speakers are a lot to haul. It gets old really fast...Been there. Done that.


Tim, Robbie (the store manager mentioned above) talked me into this set-up by displaying how light the 12" powered speakers are. He had one on the floor of the showroom, and I was frankly shocked by how light it was. Interestingly though (almeriastrings), Robbie strongly advised against the 15" powered speakers saying they were substantially heavier and provided little enhanced performance, especially for an acoustic ensemble.

I'm thinking this whole thing will likely sound quite good and will still be "portable enough".

Thanks again.

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## almeriastrings

10 or 12" speakers are plenty for an acoustic group, generally. 15" can get quite muddy at certain frequencies - that is a lot of cone to move in and out. They may be OK for bass-heavy disco duties, but they lack the fast transient response needed for acoustic instruments, particularly mandolins. One of the reasons why the 'tower' array systems using multiples of (usually) 4" drivers can sound so good is that they have an incredibly fast transient response. As a general guide, the larger the cone of the driver, the slower the transient response - hence, 15" and 18" drivers are fine on bass - but pretty horrible on mandolin. Most modern speakers now use Class D amplifiers and switch mode PSU's ... so less heatsinking, no transformers... keeps the weight right down. You can now hold a 2kW amplifier in one hand. Gone too are the old, heavy plywood cabinets, replaced by reinforced, lightweight plastics.

What does still count is the _quality_ of the system, though.... what exact speakers and mixer are they suggesting?

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## Tim2723

Yeah. Robbie was right about 15" pseakers for your application.  As Almeria mentioned, 15" could end up muddy.  Give it a while and I'll bet Allen, Mike, 'Droid and the rest will agree to go with the 12" cabs.

I'm a bit leary given your orignial budget though.  Have you upped the ante like we said before?  If those three initials you can't remember are JBL I wonder what you're getting for $650.

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## Ed Goist

Tim, the speakers are not JBL (I would have remembered that). I'll verify the brand and post it here.
The other thing that's making this possible (and allowing us to splurge on the speaker component) is that our other guitarist got his hands on a decent mixer (8 channels).

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## Tina MBee

great discussion. been thinking about getting something for my small group, but I know nothing about it. Wish I could understand a tenth of what is being said! How in the world do you learn about sound systems?!? Don't have anyone that I trust to ask like Ed did.

----------

Ed Goist

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## allenhopkins

> ...How in the world do you learn about sound systems?!?...


1. What little I know I learned from trial-and-error, buying and using 'em for 40 years, starting with a Shure VocalMaster back during the Mesozoic Era, and working forward from that.

2. A _good_ dealer is a very valuable resource.  I have been lucky in finding a couple of very trustworthy dealers in Rochester, *Brighton Sound* and *Sound Source,* and they will discuss frankly the pros and cons of different equipment, amplification strategies, etc.  If there's a dealer in your area that seems to service a lot of the professional musicians, and if your contacts among local performers recommend that dealer, that'd be a good place to take your questions.

3. Discussions like this thread are extremely helpful.  You have posters here who have been working with different types of PA equipment for decades.  They can be opinionated, sure, but a lot of what they say has been distilled from thousands of experiences, good, bad and ugly.

4. Finally, while I'd never say "you can't go wrong," there's an awful lot of really decent, reliable, not-to-expensive equipment available now.  You can pick a system that gets good reviews, maybe start a thread here asking for people's opinions, and you'll probably come out OK.  It ain't rocket science, and if one doesn't get obsessed with the desire to get the _absolute best 100% perfect ideal system,_ one can come up with a usable, affordable, good-quality set-up without risking total disaster.

Before I even had the VocalMaster, my bluegrass trio played through a Fender Bassman head into two Bassman bottoms with a couple of PA horns -- the kind you find pole-mounted at outdoor events -- jury-rigged on top of them.  That was our "PA."  I shudder to think what the sound quality was, 40+ years ago, but just _using_ sound systems ever since has taught me quite a bit.  Take a deep breath, jump in the pool, keep your eyes and ears open, and chances are you'll be fine.

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## foldedpath

> great discussion. been thinking about getting something for my small group, but I know nothing about it. Wish I could understand a tenth of what is being said! How in the world do you learn about sound systems?!? Don't have anyone that I trust to ask like Ed did.


Experience over the long term is the best teacher, but you can get a jump-start in understanding the basic concepts. 

The Sound Reinforcement Handbook by Gary Davis, written for Yamaha back in 1988 is probably the closest thing to the Bible of PA Sound. It's a bit dry and technical, but it's a gold mine of information. 

Not much has changed since 1988 as far as the basic concepts go; things like feedback control, the different frequencies of vocals and instruments, and so on. The major changes have been refinements in hardware like the move toward powered speakers instead of separate passive speakers and racks of amps, and new digital mixer designs that increase efficiency. I don't think it covers modern big concert line arrays, or the small compact tower systems like the Bose L1. But all the main concepts are there. Everything it discusses about running a larger PA system can be scaled down to setting up a PA in a coffee shop, or a small tent at a farmer's market.

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## Tim2723

Hi Tina!

Like Allen said, it's not rocket science.  Sometimes these threads can go off on tangents that get a bit confusing, and you'll hear differing opinions based on long time experiences, but it's usually not as hard as it might sound.  This forum itself is one of the best resources you have.  We represent everything from the weekend warrior who struggles to make things work on a daily basis to world-class audio experts who deal with crowds of thousands, and everything in between.

If you're interested in getting started with your group, we'd all be glad to help.  I suggest starting a new thread here in the Equipment forum just so everyone can find it.  My only suggestion is that you take a moment to list as much information as possible. Often times the long, convoluted nature of these threads stems from a little information coming out at a time.  So if you can, make a list.  It doesn't have to be perfect ('cause we sure aren't!).

Try to tell us as much as you can about the kind of music you'll play, the instruments you'll use, the players in your group, how many sing, how many play electrified instruments that plug in, the kinds of places you'll most likely play, and maybe a ballpark estimate of how much you have to spend.  The last is really the least important, as it changes a lot as things go along.  Then just stay involved with the thread as it develops, since lots of additional questions crop up as we go along.

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## almeriastrings

+1

What Tim just said.

We have hundreds of cumulative years experience here... and that's just a few of us. We go back to the days when 'tubes' weren't "retro".....  :Laughing:

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## Ed Goist

Oh, I'm sure there's something that will change our expected stage sound set-up as outlined above...

I was very fortunate to pick-up a well-played, but well cared-for 2008 Martin HD-28 with a 'hard mounted' Sunrise pickup a few days ago. The guitar/pickup sounds great into my Roland CUBE amp even without a pre-amp, and with the previous owner's Sunrise pre-amp (unfortunately not part of the sale) it literally made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. It doesn't have a pure acoustic tone through the Sunrise, but it's got a wonderful, warm and powerful acoustic-electric voice nonetheless. This will work well for our ensemble.

I was anticipating that the HD-28 and my beloved 000-15 would share guitar duties in the ensemble. Well, I don't think that's going to happen... :Grin: 

I played the HD-28 (now named _"Uncle Neil"_) today (acoustically) at our Farmer's Market gig, and I was just blown away by this guitar in a performance environment...It is heads & shoulders above ANY other guitar I have ever played in EVERY way: tone, volume, versatility, appearance, playability, feel, balance, stage presence, etc... You get the idea...

* Now I'm thinking I will not need to mic my guitar or mandolin, or even my amp (40W 1X10"), but instead just have the amp properly blended in the mix, right? 

* Will this "amp solution" work equally well with my Eastman MD305/K&K Internal Twin?

* Oh, and any thoughts/recommendations on a pre-amp? Right now I'm leaning toward that Sunrise pre-amp/buffer, as I've heard this guitar through one and it sounded wonderful, and because I like the simplicity of it (It's a plug-and-play, no knobs), but I'm open to other suggestions.

* Will the Sunrise pre-amp/buffer also work well with the Eastman/K&K?

Thanks.

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## Tim2723

Well, you can always just play a guitar through an amp and work to get it blended into the mix, but what about the rest of your band?  I thought that PA was a band thing?

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## Ed Goist

Tim, Oh yes, Definitely! I'm envisioning everyone else (instrument & vox) going into the PA but me. I figure this will work since both my primary instruments are now A/E and I really don't need a mic, so I can kind of be 'stand alone' and mixed-in. 

I just want to verify that this "amp plus PA" thing can work. This stuff is all so complicated I no longer want to take anything for granted.

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## Tim2723

Oh, you can certainly have a stand-alone guitar amp with a PA - rock bands do it all the time - but it's not the most convenient way to handle acoustic instruments.  It can actually add to the complexity.  If nothing else, why would you want to carry an extra amp when all you need to do is plug into a channel on your mixer?  Depending on the situation, you might end up micing your amp or DI-ing it to the board, and that's more complicated still.  While it sounds simple (and sometimes it is) it can also become significantly more difficult.

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## Ed Goist

Great points Tim. So, generally speaking (for individual and group sound), I'd be better off running into the pre-amp, and then into the PA? 

And, as I understand it, if I'm running an A/E into a PA I will need a pre-amp in the chain, right?

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## Jim

I think blending the amp with the PA can be done, but it's not easy, especially if you do not have a sound man. If you have someone out front who knows what you want to sound like and can adjust volumes accordingly then this could work. If you have to do it yourself from stage and  take advice from your listeners, it's a nightmare. If you are not needing Monitors I'd be much more inclined to put 1 or 2 condenser mics infront of the 4 of you and run them to a small PA with no instrument amps. If Monitors are to be used Everything must run through the mixer , especially if you are doing the mix yourself.

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## Tim2723

> Great points Tim. So, generally speaking (for individual and group sound), I'd be better off running into the pre-amp, and then into the PA? 
> 
> And, as I understand it, if I'm running an A/E into a PA I will need a pre-amp in the chain, right?


Yes and maybe.  If your instrument is a full AE (with a preamp built in) then you already have all you need.  We sometimes use the term AE around here to include any acoustic instrument with an installed pickup. Your Ovation mandolin will plug directly into the board; it's a full AE.  If your instrument has a pickup that normally needs a preamp, that's obvious.  But not every kind of pickup requires one.  I'm not familiar with the pickup in your new guitar, but from what you said may need a Sunrise (?) preamp.  It sounds like the preamp wasn't included in the deal.  Other preamps may work as well.

----------

Ed Goist

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## Mike Bunting

When I have to plug in, I use a Headway Pre which gives me a low Z out to the board and a 1/4" to a stage amp if I need a little help monitoring myself.

----------

Ed Goist

----------


## Ed Goist

> Update: The manager of our local Indi music store (he's a real straight shooter who has always _"done me good"_) is recommending a pair of powered speakers (forgot the brand name...It's three initials, and the speakers are on sale...12" & 15", 200W each) and an 8 channel mixer. That's likely what we'll do to get things started. I'll post an update once the system is in place.
> 
> Thanks again for all the valuable comments here.


The powered speakers being recommended to me are the Mackie Thump 12 Powered Speakers (400-Watt 12"). 
Not at all sure where I got the "three initials" from?

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## foldedpath

> The powered speakers being recommended to me are the Mackie Thump 12 Powered Speakers (400-Watt 12").


Ed, those are what used to be called Tapco THUMP speakers, now-badged as the entry level Mackie speaker (both companies are under the same ownership of LOUD Technologies, Inc.).

FWIW, and just my $.02 opinion... I'm not a fan of Mackie these days. I think they're still in the process of re-establishing the reputation they used to have, before multiple corporate buy-outs and a rocky period of difficulty with their Chinese manufacturing a few years ago. They seem to have ironed out the supplier problems lately. These speakers might work okay for you, but you'll take a hit on resale value if you upgrade later on, compared to other brands like JBL, RCF, Yamaha, QSC, etc. 

If you can possibly stretch another $100 per speaker, I think the Yamaha MSR250 would be a better choice.

----------

Ed Goist

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## Tim2723

Ed, about two months ago I heard those.  Our regular Sunday gig hires singles to play on the patio before we start in the main room.  The guy had a pair of Thump speakers.  Maybe it was just the way he had them set up.  Maybe he didn't know an EQ from a hole in the ground.  But I walked away very underwhelmed.  They strike me as the kind of product targeted to teenage garage bands trying to land their first gig.  Maybe I'm being unfair.  Maybe I'm a snob.  Maybe a lot of things.  But I really hope you'll stretch the budget a little more.

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Ed Goist

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## almeriastrings

I get the impression the "Thump" range is Mackie's attempt to compete with Behringer on price. I too have heard them and thought they sounded pretty rough. Not a speaker that is kind to acoustic instruments at all. There are many far better options - and you_ will_ notice the difference. The Yamaha's FP mentions sound really good. I had as pair myself until fairly recently. Sold them onto a friend as I was no longer using them, but they never let me down, and sounded very tight and clean. Very well built too, but still light enough to be easy to carry.

----------

Ed Goist

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## Tim2723

Just having the three of us agree is unnerving in itself.

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Ed Goist

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## Ed Goist

Thanks all...and the confusion and uncertainty continues...  :Confused: 
This decision makes choosing, finding & buying an instrument a walk in the park.

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## almeriastrings

Well... the formula to get a really great sounding system at a realistic price is actually pretty straightforward. 

1) Get a really _good_ mixer with enough mic channels to meet current needs with a few spare. There are lots (and lots) mixers out there, but if you go for a SOUNDCRAFT or ALLEN & HEATH you can be pretty much assured it will perform to a very high standard, is well-designed and well-built, and will last you for years... these also hold their used value extremely well. They are very solid mixers with very useable EQ, good sounding FX, and are very logical in layout. Easy (and pleasant) to use. Most important of all is that they just plain sound good. Many lesser units don't. They are a very good, long-term investment in producing quality sound reliably. In your situation, I would seriously look at the Soundcraft EFX8  or the Allen & Heath Zed 60-14fx. . You get 8 mic inputs on the Soundcraft, 6 on the A&H. Both are around $400. Can't go wrong with either. There are cheaper... but none of them perform like this pair will. Note, you can carry on using these even if you upgrade/change to different speakers or systems in future. Both boards are also so clean sounding you can use them to get _excellent_ live or studio recordings. 

2) I would go for a good pair of 10" powered speakers. Avoid low end stuff like the plague. It will just cause pain in the long run. Rather than a "cheap" 12" or 15" speaker - get a good quality 10" pair. Plenty volume enough for what you are doing, and they have more than adequate low end for acoustic guitars, etc. Stick with the brands recommended above. They are recommended for a reason.

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## Tim2723

The problem has never lain in the availability of equipment to choose from, but in the budget allowed to buy it.  Amplifying a four or five piece band, even if they own nothing but their instruments, is straight forward if they have $10,000.  Doing it for $500 is the killer.

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## almeriastrings

True. Trying to get a decent system for $500-600 all-in is asking an awful lot. Like trying to get a good F-5 for the same price.

----------

Mike Bunting

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## Barry Wilson

I just picked up a mackie srm150 today. I am going to use it as my Godin's amp this weekend. Plenty of power wow. I needed something small enough and powerful enough to fit in the trunk of my motorcycle. Hell still have room for my camera bag, the woman's purse and lunch hehe. 

I can also run an out to the board easy.

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## Ed Goist

Barry; please report back on the new Mackie's performance. Thanks.

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## Barry Wilson

I am taking it to work tonight to play around but sunday I am on stage with drums, bass, keys and 2-3 electric guitars.

my guitar guy at my music store gave big thumbs up. he has used one with acoustic guitar. he finger picks. I certainly don't need bass hehe. I found you can mount it upside down on a mic stand as well if you don't want the speaker on a slant.

it is quite a drive to the jam but it is a wonderful trip on the motorcycle. I get to indulge in 2 hobbies same day this way

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## DougC

> Looking for a small portable PA. I've seen the Fender Passport and read about the Mackie SRM150.
> 
> Portable and powerful are the two things I'm looking for.
> 
> Anything else I should be looking at?
> 
> Thanks, ad




Beringer Eurolive B250D 

I just picked up one of these and it is a 'swiss army knife' of a tool. Meaning that it does a lot of useful things, eq, use as a monitor, as a solo 2 channel p.a., it has a rca's for an ipod or other device. You can connect two of them for more channels. It is just amazing at 7 lbs and 150 watts, $200. (My mandolin case is 7.5 lbs. ) Great sound too. 

(My main system is a 12 channel yorkville with yorkville monitors and speakers and at 300 lbs my back aches just thinking about it).

----------

Ed Goist

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## Ed Goist

*Update...*
Not exactly "portable", but we got our hands on:
* A Yamaha EMX88S 8-Channel Powered (800W bridged) Mixer, &
* A pair of Peavey PR-15 speakers.
So, now all we need are monitors...Two?...Suggestions?

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## mrbook

About a year ago I was in a Guitar Center Center and saw a Kustom PA50. 50 watts, 3 channels (2 XLR), two 4.5" speakers and one 3.5"  horn. 15v phantom power, but you can use an adapter for 48v, as I do for a condenser mic. Output for a subwoofer if you want one. Plus you can link units together with an XLR cable to increase inputs and power. GC price was $110: MF sells them for $100, and I have paid $80 on their special sales. I've even plugged in a mixer for more inputs. I carry two in a tote bag. They have a mount for a speaker stand. According to the manual it weighs just under 15 lbs.

I bought one and liked it. Another guy in the band bought one, and then a second. I have since purchased a second. They are great for small gigs like farmers' markets (where we have usually been asked to turn it down). It's small enough to throw in the car as a backup for my bigger PA.  We have even used it in a couple larger rooms, and have never received a negative comment about the volume or quality of the sound. I've also used it as an acoustic amp when I play with a band where everyone is plugged in. There are times when you need more, but I find it works well for small gigs.

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Ed Goist

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## Tim2723

> *Update...*
> Not exactly "portable", but we got our hands on:
> * A Yamaha EMX88S 8-Channel Powered (800W bridged) Mixer, &
> * A pair of Peavey PR-15 speakers.
> So, now all we need are monitors...Two?...Suggestions?


That will certainly get the job done, though I must admit it's something of a divergence from your original plan.   :Smile: 

With a bi-amped box mixer you can either use one amp for mains and the second for unpowered monitors or bridge the two amps for the mains and just send a signal from the patch bay to powered monitors.  I used a bi-amped mixer with unpowered mains and monitors for ten years without too much trouble.  It's a very old-fashioned, tried and true set up and there's alot to be said for it.  If I had to do it again I would have used powered monitors instead.  Having multiple power sources adds a lot of flexability plus emergency backup configurations that will get you through the show.

Assuming you're still budget concious, the cheapest unpowered monitors I've ever used that worked acceptably were Kustom 10".  Here they are new for a buck-forty a pair:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...with-horn-pair

If you have more to spend, you can get in deep with monitors.

----------

Ed Goist

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## Ed Goist

> That will certainly get the job done, though I must admit it's something of a divergence from your original plan.  ...snip...


I'm not crazy about the lack of portability, but we got a great deal on this, and it sounds pretty good to my ears. Also, I was a little surprised by how relatively light the components are, though they are bulky. We've been booked at our County Fair Labor Day weekend and there is a decent distance between the parking lot and the performance area...A test of the system's portability right out of the shoot!




> ...snip...
> With a bi-amped box mixer you can either use one amp for mains and the second for unpowered monitors or bridge the two amps for the mains and just send a signal from the patch bay to powered monitors.  
> ...snip...
> If I had to do it again I would have used powered monitors instead.  Having multiple power sources adds a lot of flexability plus emergency backup configurations that will get you through the show.
> ...snip...


Thanks very much Tim. This is all very helpful.

You make great points above regarding the benefits of using powered monitors. As you suggest, I think we'll look at sending a signal from the patch bay to powered monitors. Anyone have any experience with these?

* Kustom PA KPC12MP 12" Powered Monitor Speaker
* Behringer EUROLIVE B205D Active PA/Monitor Speaker

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## Tim2723

They are good, solid, old-school technology.  Not the most sophisticated, but they get the job done at a very reasonable price.  A lot of bands made a lot of music with those over the years, and despite all the advanced technology available today I would not be ashamed to take the stage with those.  They're pole mountable so they can act as fill speakers for dead spots.  I've never used those particular models but Kustom especially is an old, trusted name.  If I needed a pair of wedges for some reason I would write a check for those without thinking much about it.  To me that technology is like the old, scratched up SM-58 with the rusty windscreen that rolls around in the spares kit.  They might not be fancy, but if something goes wrong I know I'll get paid.

The Behringers are designed after a Mackie product mentioned earlier.  As monitors they are fine too, but they're not the same as a floor wedge.  Those are often mounted on a mic stand about waist high.  You can put them on the floor of course, but they're very small for a floor monitor IMO.  Nice and portable though, and as mentioned earlier some guys are using them as small PA speakers and all sorts of uses.  I've never used those or the Mackie version, but the idea is old.  The Hot Spot monitors were around years ago.  I just never got into the whole 'personal monitor' concept.  I think IEMs have filled that role. But a lot of people use them and like them.  I think is was Tony who came up with an interesting application with them mounted on his main speakers pointing backward.

----------

Ed Goist

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## Ed Goist

> Beringer Eurolive B250D 
> 
> I just picked up one of these and it is a 'swiss army knife' of a tool. Meaning that it does a lot of useful things, eq, use as a monitor, as a solo 2 channel p.a., it has a rca's for an ipod or other device. You can connect two of them for more channels. It is just amazing at 7 lbs and 150 watts, $200. (My mandolin case is 7.5 lbs. ) Great sound too. 
> 
> (My main system is a 12 channel yorkville with yorkville monitors and speakers and at 300 lbs my back aches just thinking about it).


Thanks Doug!

Now that we're looking just for monitors for our main system, two of these might be a good choice. This would also give us the option of using them as a small, stand-alone, PA, right?

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## Tim2723

Not to muddy the water too much, but you'd still probably want a small unpowered mixer with the Behringers even though they would have four channels.  If you get a small unpowered mixer you could just as easily plug it into the Kustom monitors for a small PA.  At least you have a little more bass response and it would use standard pole mounts.  Either way you're really talking about developing a second PA system.

Deviled eggs are good.  Pinatas are fun.  But a pinata full of deviled eggs is a mess waiting to happen.

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## TonyP

The little 205D and Mackie SRM150's for me, were a total game changer. You won't believe how good they sound for guitar, vocals, and mandolin. 

They obviously can't carry bass. But bass if first amplified right either through large 10" or 12" mains or a small bass amp does not need to be folded back through monitors. If you get a feedback buster and you look at the freq's that it notches out you'll see one of the main offenders is like 63hz, along with around 150 and 250. And one thing folks can't grasp is bass is omni directional unlike upper freq's. Just stand behind any main speakers playing full frequency material and walk around them. You can hear bass just about as good behind them as in front. But not the mids and highs. 

So mounting the 150's on the same stand as the mains with some drum hardware I found(with the house mix with everything form 250hz down cut out) has made life with monitors pretty darned wonderful. With the right mic's and a good feedback buster we can get more than loud enough and hear ourselves perfectly. 

I've also with my same mixer used them as a mini pa. They are integral to my scalable PA concept.

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## Bob Buckingham

I played through a Passport 250 at a gig the other day.  It was OK,  we usually use a Stagepas 400  which has good feedback control and fills the space pretty well.  The towers are limiting as far as inputs and aren't that great when using a large diaphragm mic IMHO

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## Ed Goist

> ...snip...If you get a small unpowered mixer you could just as easily plug it into the Kustom monitors for a small PA. ...snip...


How could the unpowered mixer drive the Kustom monitors? Where would the power come from?

I talked all this over with the other guitarist at our Farmer's Market gig today, and we're both very much sold on trying to get monitors for the big system that we could also use as a stand-alone, smaller PA system.

Tony, which do you prefer between the Behringer B205D and Mackie SRM150? They seem to have almost identical specs.

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## Tim2723

The ones you had selected are powered at 100 watts each.  More than enough for a small PA.  The ones I linked to were the unpowered simple cabinets.  Those you would only use with a powered mixer like you have by using one of the two amplifiers in the Yamaha cabinet (usually B).  The powered speakers would be plugged into the wall for electrical power and be connected to an output in the Yamaha's patch bay (usually line-out or monitor send).

The nice thing about the powered speakers is that they give you a lot more options for how to set them up. The unpowered ones are cheaper and simpler to run, but not by much.

----------

Ed Goist

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## Barry Wilson

As a mando amp I am pretty impressed so far with the mackie. tomorrow we see how it fairs with the band in a semi loud setting

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## allenhopkins

> ...very much sold on trying to get monitors for the big system that we could also use as a stand-alone, smaller PA system...


Another possible contender is the *Galaxy Audio Powered Hot Spot* monitor, which is spec-ed at 170w.

I have an older one (the newer ones have a different driver and a few more bells 'n' whistles), and I've used it as a single monitor, and with a couple of (unpowered) Peavy Mini-Monitors slaved to it as a monitor system, and even as a mini-PA in certain applications, either stand-alone or with the Peavies.

It's surely louder than hell when turned up, and it was my one-piece, small-room, don't-want-to-carry-the-Passport PA of choice until I got my Fishman SA-220 SoloAmp.

----------

Ed Goist

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## TonyP

Ed, it's pretty much a toss up between the 150 and 205. It's weird the 150 is now black, looking like the 205. Makes you wonder who's trying to knock off whom?

When I bought my pair of 150's, one was an open box, and the other was still sealed. The sealed box was DOA. Go figgur. Took it back to GC and they made it good, but it took a while as that was the last one and they had order another. Since then they both have worked fine. But with the way Mackie has changed and looking at the feedback of the two products I think you'd be better off with the Behringer. The guy I know who's bought one is using his 205 more than I've used my Mackie's(he's playing with 3 bands and is pretty much full time now) and reports no problems with his 205. And I've never seen anybody say they've had a 205 die, where there's a bunch of folks that have had their 150's die. I'm hoping it just because they are trying to run them like a guitar amp, but I don't know. I love my 150's, but I'll be honest I'm scared one is going to die on me. The one thing I didn't like about my friends 205 was it didn't have the ability to link thru to daisy chain the signal through to the other monitor. Otherwise they are pretty similar soundwise I think.

 What's weird is looking at the two you'd think the Mackie would be better because the whole back of the thing is metal heatsink. But looks can be deceiving I guess.

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## almeriastrings

From "small portable PA" to a big old Yamaha EMX and a pair of 15" speakers.. and now, extra monitors.....my... we have come a long way.....  still, you will get some free weight training while you're setting up!  :Laughing:

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## Ed Goist

I think this has been the most informative Cafe thread I've ever followed. Thanks to all you folks for the great information and advice.

Tim's point about also having an unpowered mixer to use with the powered monitors for our "small PA system" is very well taken. Now We're considering getting the Kustom KPC12MP Powered Speaker Pair (12" 100W) as the monitors for our large system, and a Behringer non-powered mixer to use with the Kustom Powered Speakers as our "small PA".

Any suggestions on which Behringer mixer to get? I'd like to spend ~$100 and they have several models in that range. The one feature that I think would be important to have is reverb.

Oh, the guitarist & I are pretty sure that the "smaller PA" option will be our go-to for the acoustic ensemble. We used the big PA this evening with my electric band at a picnic gig, and it boomed...Can't imaging using it in a coffeehouse!

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## almeriastrings

> Any suggestions on which Behringer mixer to get? I'd like to spend ~$100 and they have several models in that range. The one feature that I think would be important to have is reverb.
> !


The only one with FX I know of at near that price is the 1202:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/1202FX/

4 XLR mic inputs with +48v. 

For the price you can't complain...I suppose......though it lacks some things that can make life an awful lot easier (such as channel mutes) and uses one of those horrible external PSU's with a nasty connector.

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## Ed Goist

The Behringer XENYX 1002FX & QX1002USB Mixers (10 inputs) both have FX processors and are $100 & $110 respectively.
I've heard good things about the Behringer mixers, but would be happy to consider other brands. 
Let me put it this way, what's the best unpowered mixer for up to $150? I'd say we need a minimum of 6 inputs, but 8+ would be ideal.

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## billder99

If you're not in a hurry, watch on EBay/C-List/AGF/etc for a used Fishman Soloamp. Outstanding system, can be had for $650 used, bulletproof, easy to use, super portable.

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## almeriastrings

> The Behringer XENYX 1002FX & QX1002USB Mixers (10 inputs) both have FX processors and are $100 & $110 respectively.


They have so few mic inputs (2) that they are virtually useless in a PA context, which is why I did not refer to them. The other inputs are line-level stereo, with no EQ...

You are _not_ going to get a good mixer with 8 mic inputs and FX for $150. You'd be lucky (  :Frown: ) to find even a trashy, no-name one for that price. Reality. Even Behringer don't make anything like that...their cheapest mixers with FX and 6 mic ins run to over $220 (X122FX), and frankly, once you start with that, you may as well just shell out and get something that will _really_ get the job done, and do it well. Something that will last for years. Soundcraft EFX8 or A&H Zed model.

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## Barry Wilson

the alesis multimix is in that range as well. alesis have great fx and has usb connectivity. The yamaha MG82CX has built in compressors for each channel which is often helpful.

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Ed Goist

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## Ed Goist

_So inputs aren't really inputs?_ 
This is the most confounding topic I've ever encountered.  :Confused:

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## almeriastrings

The Yamaha is the better of the three, sound-wise in my opinion(Alesis, Behringer and Yamaha). It costs roughly $160 and you get 4 mic inputs. The 'one knob' compression feature is not great (inflexible and noisy), and is only on two channels, anyway. The mic pres are decent. The EQ is pretty basic. It does have a nasty 'line-wart' PSU, as do most in this price range. The build quality is really bad, in my opinion. Very cheap and plasticky feeling. Power connector is a real weak point. It does lock, but I have seen several where joint failures have occurred.  I have not used that specific model, but I have used the versions without the FX... some of Yamaha's more professional desks are pretty good.

----------

Ed Goist

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## almeriastrings

> _So inputs aren't really inputs?_ 
> This is the most confounding topic I've ever encountered.


You have to read the specs very carefully. You will often see mixers listed as "18 inputs!!". Wow, that's fantastic! Until... you look closely, and there are only 4 that are of any real use to you. The rest are made up of stereo line ins, aux returns, 'tape' returns and other stuff you may never want or need.  If you play electronic keyboards the 'stereo' inputs are certainly relevant. If you are an acoustic ensemble, you need *microphone and DI* inputs, however. Those are the ones that count.

They write it up like that for marketing purposes. It looks more impressive.

This is one reason I like Soundcraft as a company. When they call a mixer the EFX8 you actually GET 8 mic inputs... when they say EFX12.. you get 12. Not 4.

----------

Barry Wilson, 

Ed Goist

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## Tim2723

For those reading along who have not yet encountered their first mixer there is a basic rule of thumb for the number of 'inputs' that lets you quickly sort through the bewildering array of equipment available.  Count the number of XLR connectors.  Those are the large round ones.  They're often black. That will indicate the number of  channels that are the kind most often needed by accoustic live musicians.  There may be many additional channels on a mixer which serve untold valuable purposes in the world, but for folks like us it almost always works if you just count the XLR connectors.  A mixer may have a dozen channels, but only two of them might be the kind we actually need most.  After a while you'll be familiar with all the various inputs and what you can and can't do with them, but for a quick first way to sort things out, count the big black circles.

Oops, I forgot one thing.  On most larger mixers you will also see XLR type outputs, usually two of them.  They will be located seperately from the input XLR jacks, but they look alike in most pictures.  Don't count those.

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Ed Goist

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## Tim2723

> Oh, the guitarist & I are pretty sure that the "smaller PA" option will be our go-to for the acoustic ensemble. We used the big PA this evening with my electric band at a picnic gig, and it boomed...Can't imaging using it in a coffeehouse!


Oh Ed, dear friend, I'm sure I wasn't the only one taken aback when you wrote in to say you'd bought that.  Five pages ago you asked about a two-door compact sedan and ended up with a full-size pickup with four wheel drive and a snow plow. You're guitar pal is right buddy, that's a system for a rock band in a dance club.  But like the big pickup, it will get you out of anything you'll ever get yourself into.

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Ed Goist

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## Tim2723

> Any suggestions on which Behringer mixer to get? I'd like to spend ~$100 and they have several models in that range. The one feature that I think would be important to have is reverb.


The 1202FX is the smallest and cheapest your group will get away with that has built-in reverb.  But consider carefully whether or not you really need the FX.  The only one an accoustic group makes much use of is reverb, and that needs to be applied in small amounts very tastefully.  I find that I never miss having reverb.  Even with mixers that had excellent spring tank reverb systems I almost never used it at all.  It's nice to have sometimes, but acoustic music can get muddy with too much reverb.  Our ancestors only had the natural reverb of the place they were playing.  

You aren't going to find a new mixer with the channels you need and FX for under $100.  Sorry.  But if I were you I'd bite the bullet and get a quality mixer even without FX.  The smallest one like that which I'd recommend is here:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...i-format-mixer

If you find that you just can't live without reverb you can always add it afterward.  There are affordable reverb units that have much better sound than a lot of these on-board FX units anyway.  One of the biggest complaints you'll read about these FX mixers is that people don't care for the reverb.

----------

Barry Wilson, 

Ed Goist

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## almeriastrings

What Tim says is true. A mixer without built in FX will be quite a lot cheaper, and you can add them later..... however... what is not so obvious is that you cannot quite so_ easily_ obtain _different levels_ of reverb on separate channels so easily with external FX. You are then looking at mixers with extensive AUX SENDS and RETURNS (which may not be available on smaller mixers and in any event require you to carry yet more stuff around, cables, etc.). This is why, if you think you'll need reverb, it is usually much more convenient to buy a mixer with them built in. It is also true that some mixer reverbs are not too good. However, the Soundcraft ones, in my opinion, are very good indeed, being based around the highly respected Lexicon units. The A&H are also good, and the very latest Behringer's are much better than their older ones (which were terrible). Their new ones use reverbs from Klark Technik - these are only on their new 'QX' series, however, not on the older, cheaper models...but, of course, more money!

I strongly advise anyone confused by this to read an excellent, unbiased, FREE technical guide to mixers and how to use them put out by Soundcraft. It applies to all makes and has some great advice in there. 

All you need to know about channel settings, mic inputs, sends, returns, EQ... and so on.

----------

craig.collas

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## Tim2723

Yes, the mixer I linked to as an example allows for independent reverb control for each channel from a single outboard reverb unit, but many smaller inexpensive models do not.  Just one more thing to bear in mind while navigating the confusing waters of mixers.

Many players simply cannot do without reverb.  Others like myself could gladly live their lives without it.  Some enjoy the convenience of on-board effects while others carry all their effects as seperate outboard devices that meet their very specific demands. Reverb, signal processing, and all that the subject involves is a very personal thing.  Honestly, it could (and does) fill volumes all by itself.

Oh, and +1 for the Sound Craft manual.  It's an excellent first guide to the subject.  A copy was included when I bought my mixer.

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## Ed Goist

I'm now (once again) leaning toward a couple of powered speakers to use as monitors for our big system and mains for the portable system, and an unpowered mixer to round-out the portable system.

I'm looking at the Soundcraft EPM6 6-Channel Multi-Format Mixer, and still searching for the right powered monitors/mains.

Musician's Friend currently has deep discounts on the Gemini RS line (10" & 12") of powered speakers. 
* Are these on par quality wise to the Kustom KPC powered speakers?
* For an acoustic ensemble playing small, casual venues will 10" speakers generally get the job done, or are 12" speakers a better bet?

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## Tim2723

A 10" speaker    will be just fine for your application.  Many would agree that 10" would actually be the superior choice.

The Kustom speakers are traditional floor wedges.  That is, they are designed for monitor use but can very effectively double as mains.  They are comparatively simple in design.  They are far from being high tech wonders but come from an old, established, respected manufacturer.  The 10" model is 50 watts rms (it's the 12" that are 100 watts each).

The Gemini are significantly more sophisticated and offer several nice features.  They offer 160 watts rms. While I'm not familiar with them personally, I see that they receive rather lackluster reviews on the MF site. 

If they are to do double duty, I think the Kustom design will serve better because of the cabinet shape.  The Gemini have it hands-down for power and features but may not be quite as useful sitting on the floor.  Their construction is similar to the Peavey PR15 speakers you have.  If you don't think that shape would work as a monitor for you, neither will the Gemini.**

Despite the difference in power ratings, either would handle your farmer's market application. They would also be right at home in the church setting from that picture you posted earlier. For larger demands you always have the big pickup truck.

** To clarify that cabinet shape business, modern speakers are made of molded plastic.  As such they can be easily and cheaply made in a sort of trapezoidal shape.  This helps acoustically.  

But a floor wedge is specifically designed to sit on the floor at a variety of angles.  By spinning, turning, and flipping the floor wedge you can select the angle between the speaker and the microphone.  In order to best control feedback it's advisable to have the monitor speaker facing the exact backside of the mic.  Floor wedges help do that.  Even though molded speaker cabinets have a bit of angle to them, they aren't designed to have that flexability.  The shape of a floor wedge is designed for the job.

----------

Ed Goist

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## Tim2723

BTW, for what it's worth, that 6 channel Sound Craft mixer is the one I use to pay my rent, and those Peavey PR speakers are what I used for several years before buying the Bose. I even powered them with a bi-amped box mixer almost identical to your Yamaha.  You're welcome to call me on the phone and I can walk you through any questions you could possibly have if that would help.

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Ed Goist

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## Barry Wilson

my last board was a small soundcraft. good stuff, but it was in the 4x4 category haha (love that analogy) so didn't mention it. 

I made the mistake of getting too small and found I needed more sends and returns and sold it. We ended up finding an older used 12ch with 3 aux per channels so we could have a seperate monitor mix. I like a little doubling or slapback on vocals, and we were using a vocal harmonizer for some extra fill...

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## foldedpath

> I'm looking at the Soundcraft EPM6 6-Channel Multi-Format Mixer, and still searching for the right powered monitors/mains.


I like Soundcraft mixers and have owned the version of that series with built-in effects (EFX8). It's a nice little board; very compact for what it does, with good preamps and flexible EQ. 

This series does have one flaw in the design, if you ever plan to use powered monitors. I know that's not your immediate application... you're looking for a compact mixer for a downsized version of your main PA, just to drive two powered, small main speakers, right? But if you ever *do* add powered monitors with this mixer, it will be a pain because there is no volume knob for the AUX output. That's where you'd normally set up your monitor mix, on the AUX bus. You'd have to adjust monitor volume at each individual powered speaker and that would be very inconvenient. There are "monitor out" jacks with a level control, but that just gets you a copy of the main speaker (FOH) mix. That may be enough in some circumstances, if you don't need to balance individual vocals and instruments. 

I just wanted to mention that, since it's not immediately obvious to those just getting into powered speakers. I didn't realize it myself until I went down that road, so I ended up selling my EFX8 and getting the big brother MFXi8 version, which does have volume output controls for the AUX busses. It's a little larger and heavier, but it would be a better choice as a "centerpiece mixer" for the main PA system, if you're eventually planning on upgrading from that powered mixer you bought.

----------

Ed Goist

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## almeriastrings

> I like Soundcraft mixers and have owned the version of that series with built-in effects (EFX8). It's a nice little board; very compact for what it does, with good preamps and flexible EQ. 
> 
> This series does have one flaw in the design, if you ever plan to use powered monitors. I know that's not your immediate application... you're looking for a compact mixer for a downsized version of your main PA, just to drive two powered, small main speakers, right? But if you ever *do* add powered monitors with this mixer, it will be a pain because there is no volume knob for the AUX output. That's where you'd normally set up your monitor mix, on the AUX bus. You'd have to adjust monitor volume at each individual powered speaker and that would be very inconvenient. There are "monitor out" jacks with a level control, but that just gets you a copy of the main speaker (FOH) mix. That may be enough in some circumstances, if you don't need to balance individual vocals and instruments.


This is true. If you need to create a separate monitor mix that's a real inconvenience. There are a couple of easy workarounds, however. The first is to simply put a little line-level sub-mixer between the Aux output and the powered monitors. You can use something really small for this. If you need more channels, and additional monitor mixes, you can also add a second "full" small mixer and gang them up. I will sometimes do that if I need more than an EFX8 or A&H Zed 12FX can deliver alone, but want to avoid bringing the full 28-channel desk along (which has a lot of great features but is also very heavy and bulky). Most of the time when using the small mixer though, I will be using a pair of SA220's, so don't need a separate monitor mix at all.

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## Tim2723

Much as it was with your instruments, this won't be the last mixer you'll ever own.  Don't suffer paralysis by analysis.

----------

Ed Goist, 

Sheryl McDonald

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## TonyP

" paralysis by analysis" 

LOL, I'm sure the rest of the gallery's getting a chuckle outta that too.

----------

Mike Bunting

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## Tim2723

It's a fundamental doctrine of Phegmatism.

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## craig.collas

Thanks for the link great stuff,


http://www.soundcraft.com/downloads/...d=palz&id=1804

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## Tim2723

I just had a thought on Ed's problem that I'll throw out for the forum to disect.

Ed has a bi-amped 2x400 watt powered mixer and a pair of 15" passive cabs.  What if, instead of buying additional mixers and powered speakers, he goes the cheaper, simpler route?  For $200 MF is selling four Kustom 10" passive floor wedges ($99 a pair):

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...with-horn-pair

OK guys, follow me through:

What if, instead of building a small PA to suppliment the big guns he bought, he turns the big one into a small one?  With these speakers he could mount two on the poles as small mains and have two for monitors if he really needs them.  The amp will power them seperately and give independant EQ and all controls to monitor and mains.  For big applications he could power the 15" mains with amp A (from the bi-amp) and run as many as four monitors from amp B.  Independant EQ and all for both.

The Kustoms have 75 Watt handling (150 peak @ 8 ohms) but he's not going to run them full out in small venues anyway. We'll have to double-check the math for ohm load but I think it will be OK .  Granted it won't have all the flexability of powered speakers but the set up is simple, dirt cheap, and with that many speakers he'll have a lot of options available. The Kustoms aren't the most sophisticated speakers but they get 4.5 stars with a lot of reviews.  We all grew up knowing Kustom, so that's better than some fly-by-night brand built from overstock components. They're minimum investment, minimal risk, nothing wasted.  Meets all the Laws of Phegmatism.  Even if it doesn't work there's fifty guys who will buy them from the Classifieds. 

OK, now tear that apart and tell me where I went wrong.  I'm sure I must be missing something.  It's never that easy. (I predict that Mike will find a problem and that Tony will wish he thought of this.)

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Ed Goist

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## foldedpath

> I just had a thought on Ed's problem that I'll throw out for the forum to disect.
> 
> (snippage)


Well, it solves one problem I was concerned about, and that was Ed's idea of using two different mixers for smaller and larger gigs. 

Once you've done this kind of thing for enough years, it's no big deal to switch mixers for different circumstances. I do it all the time between my main MFXi8 mixer and the little Zed10FX, sometimes using both on the same gig (one indoors for the reception, one for the outdoor wedding ceremony). I've run larger format mixers too as "guest sound guy." But for a beginner to PA systems, I think it's a good idea to settle on one mixer as the core of the system. Learn how to use it so well that you can "mix blindfolded," because there are going to be situations in the heat of battle where you don't have the luxury of scratching your head and trying to figure out what knob to turn, to fix a problem RIGHT NOW in front of a live audience and fuming band members. 

So in that respect, just adding some compact passive 10" speakers to that Yamaha powered mixer is a good idea, I think. It doesn't make for a highly portable system for small venues, because Ed would still be lugging around a 34 lb. powered mixer. But that's the trade-off with powered mixers -- they don't lend themselves to scaling up or down in capability. At least with the Kustom 10's, he wouldn't be lugging around those big 15" cabs. And this idea is less expensive than purchasing a decent compact passive mixer and some small powered monitors, so any additional resources can go into things like mics, mic stands, cables, etc.

As a side note... and not to discourage Ed on his journey through the wilds of running PA systems  :Wink: ... but this whole conversation is a perfect example of why I think a passive mixer and powered speakers ("tower" or conventional) is the way to go for us weekend warriors running our own systems. Especially when you're not sure exactly what kind of gigs you'll be doing. Powered mixers and passive speakers/monitors just don't scale well for smaller or larger gigs. You're stuck with "one size fits all," and you basically end up replacing the whole rig, when the size no longer fits everything you want to do. Or if like me, you're getting up in years and just want to haul the smallest, most lightweight gear that does the job.

Edited to add: Well, I guess I did see a problem, but it was in the general philosophy of using a powered mixer. As a solution to Ed's current needs, the 10" passive monitor idea is a good'un!

----------

Ed Goist

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## Ed Goist

> I just had a thought on Ed's problem that I'll throw out for the forum to disect.
> 
> Ed has a bi-amped 2x400 watt powered mixer and a pair of 15" passive cabs.  What if, instead of buying additional mixers and powered speakers, he goes the cheaper, simpler route?  For $200 MF is selling four Kustom 10" passive floor wedges ($99 a pair):
> 
> http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...with-horn-pair
> 
> OK guys, follow me through:
> 
> What if, instead of building a small PA to suppliment the big guns he bought, he turns the big one into a small one?  With these speakers he could mount two on the poles as small mains and have two for monitors if he really needs them.  The amp will power them seperately and give independant EQ and all controls to monitor and mains.  For big applications he could power the 15" mains with amp A (from the bi-amp) and run as many as four monitors from amp B.  Independant EQ and all for both.
> ...


Loving this idea.

Could we go with just two of the 12" Kustoms as mains, avoiding monitors all together? If the 12s are positioned correctly, might we not be able to avoid the need for monitors? (Not trying to be cheap...just make things as portable as possible.  :Smile:  )

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## oldwave

I went even ultralight these days wit the  HK nano 
Used it outside on a Patio last night with 4 piece acoustic band and it cut it quite well
In doors in a loud bar I am not sure but quite coffee house gigs and restraunts it will be fine
22 lbs 700 street 
Add a couple of small powered monitors and you have an ultralight system
I bought some used TC electronics voicesolos for monitors
the whole system packs in a trunk

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## Tim2723

> Loving this idea.
> 
> Could we go with just two of the 12" Kustoms as mains, avoiding monitors all together? If the 12s are positioned correctly, might we not be able to avoid the need for monitors? (Not trying to be cheap...just make things as portable as possible.  )


Of course you can.   You can always add a pair of monitors if you find you really need them, and from what you've said I think you'll eventually need them.  For a lousy $99 you can throw them in the trunk of the car just in case.

It's not being 12" that matters, but how the speakers are managed.  A pair of 10" cabs can be used without monitors just as well as 12".  Personally, I'd go with a pair of 10" for mains and maybe get a second pair if really needed.

The question becomes will the amp be too much for these when used for small venues turned down low?  I don't think so, but I'd like somebody to check me on that.

And the weight of the amp is going to show up one place or another.  It's either in the mixer box or the speaker box.  Like the man said "You gotta serve somebody.  It may be the Devil or it may be the Lord, but you're gonna have to serve somebody."  

You're going to have to carry the amp.

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## foldedpath

> The question becomes will the amp be too much for these when used for small venues turned down low?  I don't think so, but I'd like somebody to check me on that.


It's hard to say, without knowing how linear the main volume knob is. Ed already has those 15" cabs, so if they can be driven at a low enough level for a small venue like a coffee shop, then the smaller passive speakers should do okay.

The other question is how risky it is to use small speakers with low power ratings. The manual for that powered mixer says "nominal" output is 80 watts into a 4 ohm load (two 8 ohm speakers connected to either the "A" or "B" amp outputs) when the level meter reaches zero. And then it's 400 watts at 4 ohms if you push it up to where the limiter lights up, which is where they get the 400 W/channel "marketing watts" rating for the mixer. 

The passive 10" and 12" Kustom speakers are rated at 60W RMS/120W peak and 100W RMS/200W peak respectively. Amp manufacturers usually use peak power in their marketing, _so I assume_ (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that either speaker would be okay, as long as Ed keeps the master volume meter at zero or below. Personally, I'd be more comfortable with speakers having a matched or higher power rating than the amp, but if used carefully, this should work. Especially for an acoustic group, since low bass is where most of the power goes, and we're not talking huge bass guitar or kick drum here. Just keep an eye on that level meter.




> And the weight of the amp is going to show up one place or another.  It's either in the mixer box or the speaker box.  Like the man said "You gotta serve somebody.  It may be the Devil or it may be the Lord, but you're gonna have to serve somebody."
> 
> You're going to have to carry the amp.


It's not quite an even trade-off in weight though. With a powered mixer and passive speakers, you're paying the weight penalty of a larger and heavier case to hold the amp components inside the mixer. You get that case enclosure "for free" when the amps are placed inside the speaker cabinets, since you're hauling those cabinets around anyway.

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## Tim2723

> Personally, I'd be more comfortable with speakers having a matched or higher power rating than the amp, but if used carefully, this should work. Especially for an acoustic group, since low bass is where most of the power goes, and we're not talking huge bass guitar or kick drum here. Just keep an eye on that level meter.
> 
> It's not quite an even trade-off in weight though. With a powered mixer and passive speakers, you're paying the weight penalty of a larger and heavier case to hold the amp components inside the mixer. You get that case enclosure "for free" when the amps are placed inside the speaker cabinets, since you're hauling those cabinets around anyway.


Thanks, that's just what I was thinking.  I believe Ed is currently considering a pair of main speakers with a more appropriate power rating that will negate this concern.

The other thing I mentioned just so you could have fun with it.   :Smile:

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## foldedpath

Heh, I should learn to recognize a softball pitch when I see one coming...  :Grin:

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## Ed Goist

Tim's right, I think we've decided to go with the Peavey PR10 speakers as mains for our "smaller system". They have a similar power rating as the PR15s, and with like the way the Peaveys sound with the Yamaha powered mixer.

We're going to rehearse a couple of times through the PA this week to see if we really need monitors. We're thinking we might be able to get away without them if we position things correctly.

If we do go with monitors we'll be using floor wedges (of some type). I assume the power matching issue is less critical when considering monitors?

Man, I am just full of questions, aren't I?!

I can't tell you all how grateful I am for all the expert advice given in this thread.

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## Tim2723

Ed, I honestly think you're on the right track.  While powered speakers offer so much more and are the latest evolution in the PA scene, for what you're doing and how you're doing it this is going to be fine. We've all been down this trail and can solve any problem you have.  Rehearsing with the gear is the very best thing you could do.  If everybody did that there would be far less problems.  The PR-10 speakers will handle everything you'll need for a 'small' system without spending a fortune.  The PR-15s will handle the rest.

And don't worry about asking too many questions.  I'll bet there are at least a dozen guys reading all this just waiting to see how it comes out.  This thread won't beat the one about Blue Chip picks, but I'll bet a lot of guys are benefitting from these questions.

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Ed Goist

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## Tom Wright

What I have learned is this: An amp that is rated 200 watts into 4 ohms will deliver 100 watts into 8 ohms. If two 8 ohm speakers are wired in parallel (normal for amp outputs and chaining cabs) the resulting 4 ohms will split that 200 watts, so each speaker will see 100 watts. Multiple monitors will similarly divide the power of an amp between them. In my day we liked high impedance for PA cabs (like 16 ohms) so we could gang them without the result ending up at 1 ohm or something that would freak out the amp and lead to overheating.

Two 8-ohm 100W speakers will match a 200W/4ohm amp, and one 8-ohm speaker will also match a 200W/4ohm amp. The latter scenario is my mandolin amp, a 200W-into-4 ohms head into a 100W 8-ohm cone.

----------

Ed Goist

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## Tim2723

Thanks Tom, that's  another great point.  Series versus parallel wiring is critical.  For Ed's Yamaha head the two output jacks of amp B are parallel.  If he were to use four Kustom 10" monitors he'd have to run two out of the left jack and two from the right, each pair chained at their outputs.  That would keep the ohm load above the minimum and prevent the saftey cut-outs from engaging.  Overheating the emitter stage is very, very bad.

But you know, the computer chip in Ed's Yamaha head is something like 1,500,000 times more powerful than the computer that landed Neil Armstrong on the Moon.  Not that it's important, but I think that's really cool.

----------

Ed Goist

----------


## almeriastrings

At low volumes you _should_ be OK. Problems start if you drive the amp into clipping, and producing nasty waveforms. Speakers don't like that much. Tweeters blow and voicecoils can melt.... not normally a problem with acoustic performers, however (thankfully).

As for weight, the latest stuff is really impressive. Class-D amplifiers produce very little heat for the power offered (meaning less heatsinking needed), no huge transformers (switch mode these days), and operate at very high efficiency. The latest bi-amped class D active speakers are very impressive. No X-overs to burn out, good limiting, good match of relative power to each driver... result is very clean sounding, powerful speakers at a size/weight undreamed of just a few years ago.

----------

Ed Goist

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## Ed Goist

We rehearsed through the Yamaha EMX88S 8-Channel Powered Mixer / Peavey PR-15 speakers last night.

Set-up was not as onerous as expected, as the components are surprisingly light for their size, though they are bulky (especially the speakers...We'll definitely want to go with the Peavey 10s). 

We were able to get things positioned such that we doubt we'll need monitors. However, we were playing on a very quite private patio, and not at an outdoor market or Fair. We wondered if the monitors might be more necessary in a "real world gig situation" or when we get the 10" mains (?).

Sound quality and balance through the system was incredible. David (the other instrumentalist) and I could hear each other perfectly, making our lead exchanges much crisper and more flowing. The real treat for me was being able to hear everything being done by our back-up singer/percussionist/harmonica player Donna. She's doing VERY COOL stuff throughout that I just couldn't hear when we were playing straight acoustically (even when we were very tightly positioned and facing each other).

We were all so impressed by the sound that at the end of the night we talked about trying to NEVER play straight acoustically again. Oh, we did find that my HD-28 could get a little boomy through the 15" speakers when I really dug in, so again, we're kinda sold on the Peavey PR-10s for our acoustic application.

Overall a very "ear opening" experience... *"PA all the Way"*  :Grin:

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## Tim2723

That's great news Ed!  I think that as you and your group learn to work with the PA everything will improve over time.  A set of smaller, easier to handle speakers will be a good thing, as would having a couple of monitors hanging around just in case.  In many regards, a PA is much like learning a musical instrument.  It is an intregal part of the performance, not just a machine that makes you loud.  Let the vocalists experiment with proximity effect.  Whisper into the mic close up, sing boldly into it from a foot away, etc. Learn how to play it like an instrument.  

Also read the manual carefully and try setting it up in different configurations, even those that aren't optimum for you.  That way if anything goes wrong you'll be so familiar with it that you can solve problems on the fly.  Pretend that amplifier A just failed.  How do you work everything with only amplifier B?  Someone needs you to plug an old cassette player into the PA for the dancers and it only has a headphone jack.  What do you do? A little time spent like that can save your behind in the real world. A truly great sound man isn't great because his ears are so much better, it's because he knows what all the buttons do.

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## foldedpath

Ed, congrats on getting the system up and running!




> We were able to get things positioned such that we doubt we'll need monitors. However, we were playing on a very quite private patio, and not at an outdoor market or Fair. We wondered if the monitors might be more necessary in a "real world gig situation" or when we get the 10" mains (?).


Only way to know is try it, and then continually adjust the setup as you do more gigs. It's a learning process over time.

Regarding "no monitors"... I assume you're using the main speakers toed-in a little, to get some bleed off the edge? That's the easiest way to do it, and the best way to avoid feedback because the sound is still forward of the group, in the null of the mics. You sacrifice some area coverage at the sides of the audience, and you have to be careful about getting too much of a hot spot in the center/front of the audience. That's the main thing to watch out for... don't toe the speakers in too much.

The other way to monitor off mains is "backlining" with the speakers behind you. This can work in some situations if your volume is low enough. I usually do this when there just isn't enough space to put speaker stands out in front of the group, or we're going for a very low visual profile. You have to be careful about mic feedback when backlining, and you probably won't be able to run the system as loud as you can with the toed-in, front speakers approach. Try to avoid pointing the mics directly at the speakers when you do this. It can also help to get the speakers up as high as you can, so the horns are firing overhead and not directly into the mic pickup patterns. 

The time to think about adding monitors is when these methods aren't getting you a clear enough sound. With an acoustic group at low intrinsic stage volume, that's usually a result of loud ambient surroundings. When bar conversation or street noise reaches a certain level, you just can't hear yourselves without actual floor monitors or IEM's. The other reason to start using monitors is when one or more band members (typically the singer) needs a "more me" mix in the monitors... but that starts to go down a very slippery path of individual monitor mixes, and should be avoided for as long as you can get a single monitor mix to work for the band. 
 :Wink:

----------

Ed Goist

----------


## Ed Goist

> Ed, congrats on getting the system up and running!


Thanks!




> ...snip...
> Regarding "no monitors"... I assume you're using the main speakers toed-in a little, to get some bleed off the edge? That's the easiest way to do it, and the best way to avoid feedback because the sound is still forward of the group, in the null of the mics. You sacrifice some area coverage at the sides of the audience, and you have to be careful about getting too much of a hot spot in the center/front of the audience. That's the main thing to watch out for... don't toe the speakers in too much.
> ...snip...


This is exactly what we were doing and it worked great. Actually, we were kind of shocked by how much we could swing the speakers toward us and still not have any feedback. We only got feedback when the speakers were basically facing us, and I was really digging in on the E-string of the HD-28 (and I could even eliminate that feedback by adjusting the notch filter on my pre-amp/DI).

With the speakers toed-in, but at an audience-friendly "gigging" angle there was no hint of feedback.

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## Barry Wilson

Just thought I would update...

I played a solo gig with the mackie friday night... pro... it has plenty of clean volume. I was actually quite surprised when using it as a vocal pa. I had my tc helicon voicelive touch harmonizer along to fill things out. 

yesterday though we played on the patio. I ended up singing lead vocals for 3/4 of the night with different groups of musicians... I only played mando on about 5 songs through channel 1. I had Brian's mic plugged into channel 2 for his harmonica. we made it through 1 set and took a break. came back and it was dead. no sound. the fuse hadn't blown. now we did experience some light rain and we got large patio umbrellas out. I took it back to long and mcquade today and they just exchanged it for a new one. they did say it was odd and this was a first for them... the blue light just flashed for about 3 minutes then dimmed. it is going back to mackie now...

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## allenhopkins

> ...The time to think about adding monitors is when these methods aren't getting you a clear enough sound...The other reason to start using monitors is when one or more band members (typically the singer) needs a "more me" mix in the monitors... but that starts to go down a very slippery path of individual monitor mixes, and should be avoided for as long as you can get a single monitor mix to work for the band.


I've been able to "backline" the speakers of my Fender Passport to get "monitor effect" for a group, and of course the column PA's like my Fishman SoloAmp are designed to be placed behind the musicians, at least up to a certain volume level, and this obviate the need for monitors.

However, there are times when you need a monitor mix that's different from what's going out to the audience.  I've found at dances you need the caller really out front in the house mix, maybe not so much in the "band mix" from monitors.  In those cases, a small stand-mounted monitor like a Galaxy Audio Powered Hot Spot, can be used to bring up the instruments/vocals that need to be emphasized for the band.  Of course, this necessitates some finagling, since PA's like the Passport don't even have monitor sends, let alone controls for a separate mix.  That's when the little Behringer mixer comes out...

----------


## mandroid

have a pair  of Carvin PM5 speakers . sitting on essentially Mic Stands 
 and the Etek Note Mix Powered Mixer 

http://bluenoteguitars.com/amplifiers/etek-ma-400.html 
 as the CD player  computer sound card amp and FM radio Amp  
sitting on my Desk,  right now..

previously I had an external Phono Preamp [rolls] in 2 Mic channels . 

 small, Heavy, but the heatsink and the circuit board  break the legs
of the power transistors after moving it around  and one moves and the other does not.

----------


## Meadowview

Has anyone used a Fender Passport 500 and been able to hookup a Fender 1207P monitor to it? If so, how did you hook it up?

Thanks

----------


## Tim2723

There's a subwoofer output that has a hi-pass built in, so you don't want that.  It cuts the bass out of the mains and sends it to that output jack.  Your mids and highs would come out the main speakers and the bass would be in the monitors.  I guess you could rig something up with that 1/8" stereo out, but it wouldn't be conventional cabling.  I see a pre amp out/power amp in that looks like an effects loop.  You might be able to tap that. It seems that Allen does something with a small mixer to use monitors (see three posts back). I imagine he must hook all his inputs to a mixer then send outputs to the Passport and the monitor amps seperately.  

When I first saw those small monitors I thought they must be for the Passport systems.  But they don't appear to be.  I wonder why there's no normal monitor output?  There's two or three specialized outputs, but the most common types are missing.

EDIT: I asked Allen to join us.

----------


## mandroid

1207P is a powered monitor , so you need a Preamp output.. to feed it..

Using A Baggs PADI, for your pickup? that is the output ,split it  with a Y 1M,2F.. 

 and run 1  to the PA and another to your monitor, 

it has it's own Volume knob.

----------


## allenhopkins

> ...It seems that Allen does something with a small mixer to use monitors (see three posts back). I imagine *he must hook all his inputs to a mixer then send outputs to the Passport and the monitor amps separately*.  When I first saw those small monitors I thought they must be for the Passport systems.  But they don't appear to be.  I wonder why there's no normal monitor output?  There's two or three specialized outputs, but the most common types are missing...


Spot-on, Tim.  I have a li'l Behringer 5-channel mixer (I know, everyone hates Behringer, but mine's worked fine for almost a decade), which has monitor send and phantom power -- neither of which the Passport 150, and the 250 I used to have, feature.  So I use 1/4-inch to RCA-jack patch cords to plug the Behringer main outputs into the "aux in" inputs of the Passport; the Behringer's stereo, and so's the Passport, so I _can_ run a stereo mix through the PA (not that I do 99% of the time).

The monitor send's a 1/4 inch connect, so I hook that to a Galaxy Audio Powered Hot Spot mic-stand-mounted monitor, which is generally adequate for the small-to-mid-size venues I'm playing.  If I need more monitor, I slave a couple Peavy Mini-Monitors (unpowered) to the Hot Spot.  By the way, the Peavy Minis, which I've had for nearly 15 years, seem well-suited for acoustic music.  I have, in a couple small venues, actually used them as mains with the Hot Spot as a mini-PA-amp; decent results.  Looking on the 'net, seems they're discontinued models, but I've sure gotten mileage out of them.

The old Passport 150 I have has somewhat more sophisticated EQ for its "aux" channel than it does for its regular mic channels, but I can center both knobs and manage EQ through the Behringer mixer.  The Passport also has reverb, but I tend to run "dry" 90% of the time.

Now, really, I know from nothin' about sound systems -- on a theoretical or engineering level.  I just hook components together to try and achieve the sound I want.  I defer completely to the posters on this thread who really understand the hardware; my perspective is that of a musician only.  So weigh my ideas accordingly.

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## Terry Allan Hall

> Oh, I'm sure there's something that will change our expected stage sound set-up as outlined above...
> 
> I was very fortunate to pick-up a well-played, but well cared-for 2008 Martin HD-28 with a 'hard mounted' Sunrise pickup a few days ago. The guitar/pickup sounds great into my Roland CUBE amp even without a pre-amp, and with the previous owner's Sunrise pre-amp (unfortunately not part of the sale) it literally made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. It doesn't have a pure acoustic tone through the Sunrise, but it's got a wonderful, warm and powerful acoustic-electric voice nonetheless. This will work well for our ensemble.
> 
> I was anticipating that the HD-28 and my beloved 000-15 would share guitar duties in the ensemble. Well, I don't think that's going to happen...
> 
> I played the HD-28 (now named _"Uncle Neil"_) today (acoustically) at our Farmer's Market gig, and I was just blown away by this guitar in a performance environment...It is heads & shoulders above ANY other guitar I have ever played in EVERY way: tone, volume, versatility, appearance, playability, feel, balance, stage presence, etc... You get the idea...
> 
> * Now I'm thinking I will not need to mic my guitar or mandolin, or even my amp (40W 1X10"), but instead just have the amp properly blended in the mix, right? 
> ...


A Baggs PADI will work equally well with either p/u system.

----------

Ed Goist

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## Terry Allan Hall

> Ed, I honestly think you're on the right track.  While powered speakers offer so much more and are the latest evolution in the PA scene, for what you're doing and how you're doing it this is going to be fine. We've all been down this trail and can solve any problem you have.  Rehearsing with the gear is the very best thing you could do.  If everybody did that there would be far less problems.  The PR-10 speakers will handle everything you'll need for a 'small' system without spending a fortune.  The PR-15s will handle the rest.
> 
> And don't worry about asking too many questions.  I'll bet there are at least a dozen guys reading all this just waiting to see how it comes out.  This thread won't beat the one about Blue Chip picks, but I'll bet a lot of guys are benefitting from these questions.


Based on about 40 years of gigging and owning the PA for over 35 of those, let me clear up a misunderstood point: _there is  absolutely no advantage to powered speakers/passive mixer vs. powered mixer/passive speakers_, and the only disadvantage to powered speakers is if you're playing somewhere rough and a fight breaks out, your powered speaker on it's stand might get knocked over and you'll see sparks arise from the soon-to-be replaced powered cab (and the unlucky person who gets hit may get a concussion). Otherwise, it's all just marketing hype.  :Grin: 

So, use whichever suits you/your wallet  best...if you buy a well-made system, either type will sound great.

My "big PA" is a Carvin PA1200 (12 channels/3 X 333 watts @ 4ohms) and a pair of Carvin LM12 cabs, plus a couple rebuilt Kustom 10" floor wedges (I replaced the components so that they're 16 ohms and good for 200 watts per) and a pair of Hot Spot mini-monitors (also 16 ohms, so I can, if needed, use all 4 monitors @ 4ohms, like for band gigs...solo/duo gigs, I just use one or both of the Hot Spots.) 

Easy to carry, excellent clear sound, plenty of channels if a friend or two want to set-in, and plenty of volume, inside or out. Total investment, counting cables, stands, mics and other paraphanalia: maybe $2500, but probably a bit less, as I look for bargains!  :Wink: 

For very small solo gigs, it's the Limo 50 I referred to a few pages ago.

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## Tim2723

I will say that for a bi or tri amped powered mixer driving passive speakers (a mixer plus two or three power amps all in one big box with unpowered speakers) there can be almost as much flexibility as separate powered mains and monitors fed from a passive mixer.  A powered mixer with a single amplifier built in is very limited.  But what you list as a disadvantage to powered speakers is, IMO, their greatest single advantage. 

If you're depending on a multi-amped mixer to power your whole system, it better light up.  If you get to the gig and it's dead for some reason, you're out of a job unless you have a spare in the car.  When every cabinet has its own power supply you can rearrange things to get by.  Monitors can be pressed into service as mains if need be.  You can struggle through with a single main speaker.  Whatever it takes to get the paycheck. And that every speaker cabinet can have its own EQ and volume control is nothing to sneeze at either.  Being able to ring out every cabinet on the stage individually is a tremendous advantage.  In terms of scalability alone powered speakers have it hands down.

To me the disadvantage of powered speakers is the number of AC connections required, but that too has been addressed these days with specialized cables.

I will agree that some of the claims for powered speakers actually sounding so much better are somewhat arguable.  But that depends significantly on the quality of the equipment at hand.  I've heard powered speakers that were no better than tin cans on strings.  I've heard powered mixer systems that were equally atrocious and vice versa.

Oh, and if a cabinet hits you in the head from six feet up it's gonna hurt, powered or not.

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## Patrick Sylvest

Roland AC60 or AC90 with a condenser mic.... Amp has mount for speaker stand. I've been using this for years for a variety of venues, large and small, indoors and out. Great amp for plugging in and going out to board for a really big stage where sound is provided; kick it back on its little wire stand and you have a personal monitor. Can plug in a mixer and have stereo out, allowing full band plug in and dynamic mics all around for vocals. 


the Bose L1 system offers no improvement over this set up.

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## foldedpath

> Based on about 40 years of gigging and owning the PA for over 35 of those, let me clear up a misunderstood point: _there is  absolutely no advantage to powered speakers/passive mixer vs. powered mixer/passive speakers_, and the only disadvantage to powered speakers is if you're playing somewhere rough and a fight breaks out, your powered speaker on it's stand might get knocked over and you'll see sparks arise from the soon-to-be replaced powered cab (and the unlucky person who gets hit may get a concussion). Otherwise, it's all just marketing hype.


I respectfully disagree, based on 30 years of gigging and owning/operating portable PA systems. Powered speakers have many advantages over the old-school approach of passive speakers and power amps, which is why they're taking over the market for both portable gear and large concert line array systems. 

The first advantage is bi-amping (or even tri-amping, but that won't usually be found in the weekend warrior systems we talk about here). This allows cleaner sound, because each speaker on either side of the crossover point gets its own matched power amp and driver. A hit on the kick drum or bass doesn't suck headroom from whatever is running through the driver for the highs. It's certainly possible to bi-amp a passive speaker cabinet, but in practice that's not something most weekend warriors are going to know how to do, or want to bother with. 

The second advantage with powered speakers is dedicated DSP (digital signal processing). Most powered speakers now on the market include at least some DSP for fine-tuning the EQ response of the speakers, and providing limit protection. Some speakers, like the QSC K-series speakers I use, include advanced tricks like dynamically shifting the crossover point as the speaker reaches maximum output, to protect the low-end driver and let the speaker reach maximum SPL output. Speaking of protection, it's almost impossible to blow a powered speaker by overdriving it, because the limiter will just kick in before the amp starts to clip with a too-hot signal. With a passive speaker, you'd better know what you're doing when matching it with a power amp. Powered speakers are _much_ better for newbies to running PA speakers in that respect. Blown speakers are expensive to repair.

Some of the newest powered speakers include other DSP features like built-in mini mixers, and even auto-feedback reduction circuits. I'm a bit skeptical about that one, but it's a trend we're going to see more of, I think.

The third major advantage of powered speakers is lighter overall weight for the gear carried to the gig, because the amps get a "free" enclosure in the speaker cabinet shell that you're carrying anyway.

The fourth advantage of powered speakers is redundancy compared to single-amp systems like a powered mixer. If the amp dies in a powered mixer, the show is over (unless you're carrying a spare powered mixer). If the amp dies in a system using two or more powered speakers, the show goes on... you're just down one speaker.

And (finally!) the fifth advantage of powered speakers is that you'll be using them with a passive mixer, and there are much better passive mixers available -- even at fairly low cost -- than what you'll find in a powered mixer. Try to find a powered mixer with sweep mid EQ, for example. Powered mixers tend to come with bells and whistles that aren't all that useful, like graphic EQ that just takes up space and doesn't have narrow enough bandwidth to fine-tune the room or control feedback without wrecking your sound.

Just my opinion, but I think the only application remaining these days for separate passive speakers and power amps is in either low budget all-in-one rigs like the Fender Passport, or certain very high-end situations where you want to fly line arrays and keep the weight down, and retain local control of power amps and crossover management. Passive speakers are also better if you need to set up in exposed weather conditions and not worry too much about a little rain on the cabinet, or direct sun exposure in very hot weather (some powered speakers are heat-sensitive). But those are special cases.

FWIW, I used to be a fan of separate cabs and power amps too, back in the day. Then I bought my first powered Mackie SRM450, something like 15 years ago, and I never looked back.

----------

almeriastrings

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## Tim2723

I think there's a powered mixer and passive cab set up in just about everyone's past.  I made my living with a setup like that for years.  There's still going to be room for the old school technology for a while yet, just as the new 'tower' systems will never replace conventional speakers any time soon.  The kit that Ed bought is a classic.  Bi-amped mixer, big passive mains, a couple of monitors.  Most of us cut our teeth and grew up with those.  It will get him very far along in his intended path.  To be very fair I think several here would have talked him out of it if we'd known before hand, but he got a good deal on it and it will do what he needs for years.

----------


## foldedpath

Also, this is just anecdotal evidence... but since our duo has been focusing more on wedding gigs in the last year or so, I get to see a lot of other band and DJ rigs. We do the reception/ceremony/cocktail hour with out "Celtic Lite" mandolin/guitar thing, and the other band does the post-dinner dance. Usually that's a rock cover band or DJ, depending on the age of the crowd. 

What I see are mostly Mackie powered speakers with those bands. Sometimes a JBL or QSC, but Mackie is pretty ubiquitous out here where we are in the boonies west of Seattle. That's what's in the local bars too, when they have a small house system. Usually it's a pair of old dusty SRM450's chained to the ceiling. It's been years since I've seen any pro or weekend warrior bands out here using a passive speaker + power amp system, unless they're just starting out with used gear.

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## Tim2723

I see a similar thing.  Powered mixers are used by a lot of guys who have had them for years and not upgraded yet.  That was me too for a long while.

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## Tim2723

> Roland AC60 or AC90 with a condenser mic ...the Bose L1 system offers no improvement over this set up.


While I think your statement is too broad to be accurate, I don't disagree with the sentiment.  The very first thing I say to those who ask about my Bose systems is that they are not for everyone in all situations.  Indeed, they can be the opposite of what a group might need.  But when they are a good fit they are very hard to beat.  If you were to put a 60 watt Roland up against an 800 watt L-1 tower the result would be...well, just a silly waste of time.

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## foldedpath

> I see a similar thing.  Powered mixers are used by a lot of guys who have had them for years and not upgraded yet.  That was me too for a long while.


Ahh... PA nostalgia.  :Smile: 

Somehow I managed to skip ever owning a powered mixer, and went straight from separate power amp/passive speakers to powered speakers. I think it was because I started home recording pretty early, and needed a mixer that could double for recording and taking out for gigs. 

Here's what I used as a "portable PA" speaker system for our old electric Blues band back in the 80's, with a separate racked power amp and Peavey 12-channel passive desk mixer:

http://www.peavey.com/assets/literat...s/80370224.pdf

That's the one where the satellite speakers tucked inside the ports on the bass cab for transport. It was _sort of_ portable, at least space-wise, but so heavy it needed two people to lift into the van. It was okay for the kind of venues where you'd use one or two Bose or Fishman towers nowadays. The sound quality was passable, since we were mostly just using it for vocals to keep up with the drums and guitar amps. Still, nothing like the sound quality you can get now for the same money, and a lot less weight!

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## mandroid

Maybe the whole direct/reflecting balanced sound  Bose has built their reputation on is  lost on Patrick

he has what works for him,  which is fine  .. carry on ..   :Whistling:

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## Tim2723

Reminds me a bit of the old 'Dawn' system from that same era.  It was a suitcase system in the true sense of the word.  The outer case opened to reveal a subwoofer the size of a lunchbox and a pair of hand-sized satellite speakers that mounted on stands similar to those old wire music stands.  The case contained the mixer (800 watts IIRC).  You could carry the whole thing with one hand though.  The sound quality was fairly amazing for its size but they were very fragile and almost every one we sold came back, even the permanent installs we'd done in a couple of churches.  The technology has to start somewhere I suppose.  It was based on their concept of iddy-biddy, teeny-weeny little speakers in boxes.

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## Tim2723

Just found this nifty little take off on the Solo Amp:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...onal-pa-system

Much smaller, not as many features, supply your own tripod, but sort of neat.   Might be good for playing the uke at the home.

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## foldedpath

> Just found this nifty little take off on the Solo Amp:
> 
> http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...onal-pa-system
> 
> Much smaller, not as many features, supply your own tripod, but sort of neat.   Might be good for playing the uke at the home.


Wow... a $100 Mini-Me SoloAmp clone.  :Disbelief:  You have to wonder what that can possibly sound like, or how long it will last, with maybe $15-$20 worth of components inside. 

On the other hand, if it does sound halfway decent (and is road-worthy), then for $500, a pair of these and a nice compact mixer like the Allen & Heath Zed-10FX might be competition for things like the Passport and StagePas. Then you could build out from there; replace 'em with some "real" powered speakers and use these for monitors until they die. You'd still have a nice mixer as the core of the system. I'd want to hear one first, though. Sure looks like it's in the "too good to be true" zone...

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## Tim2723

The weird thing is that it sports 50 reviews and some of those reviewers have been using these for over a year.  I thought I had a good handle on the MF catalog but I've never seen this before.  In fact, I'm going to come right out and say that I've been through that section of the site dozens times from one end to the other and looked at every piece of PA hardware they've offered for the last decade.  It also says it's expected to ship next month. It's clearly a Solo Amp take off, so it can't be very old.  I'm a little confused.

While Kustom is a lower cost version of just about everything I don't put them in the Nady and Phonic category.  They offer economy versions of a lot of products, but they aren't crummy clones.  For instance those floor monitors we talked about earlier are well built, they're just very stripped-down, simple versions with no bells and whistles.  A basic amplifier circuit with an on/off switch, volume knob, and a couple of jacks in an old fashioned plywood and vinyl box.  That keeps them affordable, but what you get is well made.  It's just that when a Kustom product arrives you open the box and it's 1978 again.

This thing does look a little bit too good to be true.  I'm just confused.

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## Tim2723

Well maybe not 1978, but at least 1990.

I just went back five years through the archives and found nothing.  That's surprising because somebody here would have mentioned it.  I mean, look at the thing.  It just screams "Hey!  I'm a mandolin amplifier!"

I just found out it has a powered subwoofer to go with it.  The sub is an older product that they're tagging onto their little PA, but it looks pretty good.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...2s-powered-sub

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## foldedpath

Mystery partially solved. Looks like this is something that's been around since 2011 under the "Powerwerks" brand, which Kustom is now labeling under their name (can't tell the corporate players without a scorecard, these days). Here's a YouTube demo by a retailer from June 2011... not gonna link it fullscreen because I'm not really sure it's worth endorsing-by-inference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZk33_3GmE4

One would think that if this were the bee's knee's, we would have heard more about it by now. And I would take every "customer review" on a site like MF as far as I would on Amazon, which is not very far.
 :Wink:

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## Tim2723

OK, at least I'm not losing my mind entirely.  Perhaps they imported those reviews and adjusted the titles.  I actually have had a fair success with MF reviews.  You have to sort the wheat from the chaff, but it's fairly easy most of the time.  I can usually tell a newbie's review.

Having listened to the link I think I know why we haven't heard much about it.  It might just be the EQ they chose, but that's pretty tin-can-on-a-string to me.  Fast forward to where the guy is just talking into the camera and compare to the sound of the PA.   :Frown:    I don't say ick too often, but that's an affront to God and nature.

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## Ed Goist

Hi All; Great on-going discussion here.

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the great suggestions. Thanks in large part to this thread, we now have a PA that more than meets our needs, and is also portable enough for us to easily haul to & from gigs. The system includes:

* Yamaha EMX88S 8-Channel Powered (800W bridged) Mixer
* Gator GPA-720 Rolling Road Case For Powered Mixer
* A pair of Peavey PR 10 Speakers used as mains (2 speaker stands, & 2 patch cables [20'])
* Vocal microphones (two Heil PR-22; one Shure SM58; & one older, Shure 515)
* Instruments are going through pre-amps and directly into the PA.

A few observations:

The Peavey PR-10 speakers are a noticeable improvement over the PR-15s for acoustic music - Better tonal balance, no _"boominess"_ and tighter definition. (_They are also more back and knee friendly for 53 year old musicians who have no roadies._)
Placing the PR-10s in-line with the band and toeing them in ever so slightly has completely eliminated the need for monitors. We can hear everything, and hear it very well.
The Gator case with the wheels and with its enormous pocket to hold cables has substantially improved portability. 
*Thanks again!*

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## Tim2723

That sounds great Ed.  Just curious, what became of the 15" Peaveys? (Not that I'm sad to see those go.)  Did you trade them in?  The invention of the rolling case is a godsend for us old 'uns.  As you continue the journey keep an open mind toward the monitors.  You may need them one day but at least you know all about them now.

Also, you now have _four_ vocal mics on line?  What's up with that?  And did you find a good preamp for the new guitar?

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## Ed Goist

> That sounds great Ed.  Just curious, what became of the 15" Peaveys? (Not that I'm sad to see those go.)  Did you trade them in?


Thanks Tim!

We're using the same mixer & the PR-15s as the sound system for my electric band. They Crush in that application! We're also using the PR-10s as monitors, and although they are not great for that use, we find them satisfactory if we keep them vertical and elevate them off the floor (put them on a chair). We found it odd that the 10" speakers sound so much better as monitors when they are oriented vertically, but there it is!




> ...snip...
> Also, you now have _four_ vocal mics on line?  What's up with that?


Yes...I have actually been convinced to sing! I'm now singing our cover of _"Wagon Wheel"_, so all four of us are singing.




> And did you find a good preamp for the new guitar?


Yes...Based on Cafe recommendations, I got the *LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI* pre-amp and I LOVE it. Probably the best investment I've made on gear. It has substantially improved the plugged-in performance of my mandolin. 

Now, when it comes to my HD-28 with its Sunrise pick-up through the Para Acoustic DI and into the PA...Well, I'm frankly not sure I can even come up with a proper description of how great it sounds! Actually, it sounds SO good that the band is forever pushing me to play guitar on every song. (Though this may also just be a clever indictment of my mandolin playing!  :Disbelief: )

I know the Sunrise pick-up is ridiculously expensive and hard to find, but I'd have to say, it is definitely worth the money and effort. (Oh, and I bet it would sound awesome on an octave mandolin!)

Oh, I do have one challenge with the Para Acoustic DI. The phantom power switch on our Yamaha mixer sometimes works and sometimes does not (we got the mixer used, but in great shape, and this seems to be the only issue with it). Since we are now always using the PA at rehearsal, I'm plowing through 9 volt batteries on the Para A DI...It seems to eat them! This is a small price to pay for wonderful tone, but it would be nice to get the phantom power switch to work right.

Has anyone else run into this issue with a Yamaha mixer & its phantom power? Ideas for an easy fix?

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## Tim2723

OK, all that makes sense now.  I think I said pages ago that the 15's were for an electric band.  You just proved that.  The 10's sound better upright because they are mains, not monitors (look back to that description).  But if they work, that's good. It's cool that you're branching out with vocals.  Keep it up! And it sounds like you've discovered why the Baggs paraDI is the most popular pre on the site.

Good job all around!  I love it when things work out. (Almost as much as when Mike is wrong, but that hardly ever happens.)

BTW, this thread has seen over 6500 views thus far. Now be honest (this is for posterity), did you spend more than the original $650?  :Grin:

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## Tim2723

> Ideas for an easy fix?


Blow it out with contact cleaner.  It's sticky sometimes.  Otherwise there are no user serviceable parts inside.  If you have to leave it on be careful.  Some condenser mics are delicate and can't handle the power up shock.  The PARA-Di can take the load though.

----------

Ed Goist

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## Ed Goist

> ...snip...
> BTW, this thread has seen over 6500 views thus far. Now be honest (this is for posterity), did you spend more than the original $650?


$697.81 including stands, cables and the Gator case, but excluding the PR-15 speakers which are not a part of this system.
This also doesn't include the mics or the pre-amp.

----------

Tim2723

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## Tim2723

Trivia:  Do you know why 9v batteries are used as the standard for musicians gear even when they might have to be throttled back internally to a lower voltage and go dead so fast?  Nine volt batteries don't roll off the bar in the dark.  If everything uses the same battery you can steal one from something you don't need to power something you do.

Ed, you did exceedingly well.  Stunningly well in fact.  It goes to prove that you really can make things work with a little luck, a lot of work, and a few friends.  Very well done indeed!  I suspect that if you added up the pennies you'd find you've spent a little more in total, but when you consider just how much you did that will accomplish so much for you and your friends, I doubt you could have done much better in the end.  A great many of us have wasted much more and accomplished far less. 

Brilliant!

----------

Ed Goist

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## Tim2723

For the love of God let someone say something; Anything. I utterly detest being the last on a thread.

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## allenhopkins

Have to confess that I'm quite ambivalent about adding a vocal mic in order to sing _Wagon Wheel._

When I'm in the audience, I offer to slip the band a fiver if they _won't_ sing _Wagon Wheel._

However, confess that I'm regularly out-bid by Philistines who demand to hear it.

Also, regarding not needing monitors if one "toes in" one's main speakers: fine if all one wants to hear is the house mix.  Situations do emerge where the band needs to hear a different mix, for whatever reason.  _Not_ separate monitor mixes for each band member -- that's the in-ear monitors route -- but perhaps emphasized rhythm instruments for timekeeping purposes, or somewhat less of the dance caller than what the dancers need to hear.  Having some modest means of providing a separate monitor mix can be helpful, perhaps not essential in most circumstances...

----------

Ed Goist

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## Ed Goist

Allen, adding a vocal mic to hear me is even more ridiculous than adding one to hear _"Wagon Wheel"_ (though I do also sing _"For What It's Worth"_ [oh, the old Hippies love that one!]).

Allen my friend, this is just for you...From the Mahoning County (Ohio) Fair last night...

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## almeriastrings

> Has anyone else run into this issue with a Yamaha mixer & its phantom power? Ideas for an easy fix?


It could very well simply be poor contacts or debris on a worn switch. If (as suggested) a blow though with compressed air does nothing then realistically, changing the switch (after proper diagnostics) is the best fix. There are 'workarounds', such as use of a separate phantom power supply, but... more cables.. connections... wall warts:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PS400/

Or, you could try a rechargeable 9v battery in the PADI. You can get NiMh types these days that have capacities of 200mA and over. 

http://www.batteryspace.com/nimhrech...pacity1pc.aspx

A couple of those should solve the problem. The PADI should be quite happy with them.

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## Patrick Sylvest

L1 with a mixer, which cost as much as the Roland, would be an improvement.

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## almeriastrings

> It also says it's expected to ship next month. It's clearly a Solo Amp take off


Kind of. Roughly. Approximately.... in general "looks" only. 

It is actually nothing like an SA220 or Bose, or LD systems or anything of that kind. 

It uses a single power amp into a passive X-over. The speaker drivers are very low spec compared to what you get in a Fishman/Bose.  The power amp is very under-powered, and the EQ nothing to write home about. The cabinet is not based on a line-array principle, and it appears cheaply built. That's OK, I suppose, given that it _is_ cheap. I encountered one before the 'Kustom' re-branding, and my impression was it made Behringer speakers look like a Mercedes by comparison. I'm sure it would work for small clubs and people on a (very) tight budget, but certainly don't confuse it with higher end, pro-grade stuff.

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## almeriastrings

> the Bose L1 system offers no improvement over this set up.


Yes, it does - and you can measure it with an accurate dB meter and signal generator. By taking a number of spot measurements in a room you can map the difference in coverage very easily. 

Dispersion from the L1 is entirely different. It also _sounds_ completely different. 

Not to say that a raised acoustic amp is a poor choice - it can work perfectly OK, but it works on completely different principles than the compact line-array type units, and you get entirely different subjective results too.

Not sure where you get the idea that a high quality, versatile mixer would cost as much as an AC60 (around $550) or AC90 (around $700). You can get excellent Allen-Heath and Soundcraft models that far exceed anything built into the Roland units in terms of flexibility and sonic quality from around $300 upwards.

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## Patrick Sylvest

> Yes, it does - and you can measure it with an accurate dB meter and signal generator. By taking a number of spot measurements in a room you can map the difference in coverage very easily. 
> 
> Dispersion from the L1 is entirely different. It also _sounds_ completely different. 
> 
> Not to say that a raised acoustic amp is a poor choice - it can work perfectly OK, but it works on completely different principles than the compact line-array type units, and you get entirely different subjective results too.
> 
> Not sure where you get the idea that a high quality, versatile mixer would cost as much as an AC60 (around $550) or AC90 (around $700). You can get excellent Allen-Heath and Soundcraft models that far exceed anything built into the Roland units in terms of flexibility and sonic quality from around $300 upwards.


I paid $300 for my used AC60 and $199 for my AKG C3000B. The Bose Tonematch costs $499 and the L1 a grand. I got the idea from Bose. I've played through both.... for the cost, it's not an upgrade... TO ME. For three times the price, it ought to sound better!

Tell you what.... I have access to a Bose L1... I'll borrow it for a few gigs and get back with you.

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## craig.collas

These sounded nice in the shop, light and clear
http://hkaudio.com/

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## Tim2723

> It is actually nothing like an SA220 or Bose, or LD systems or anything of that kind.


You can say that again!

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## foldedpath

> These sounded nice in the shop, light and clear
> http://hkaudio.com/


Interesting design, but I think it might sacrifice some things to achieve the high portability. 

The amps are very low power compared to the better powered speakers currently on the market, which means the speakers are the high-efficiency/lightweight type. That usually has an impact on sound quality, especially at higher volumes. Also, the dispersion angle for the satellite speakers is just 60 degrees horizontal. That isn't very wide; it could limit being able to "toe in" the speakers a bit for self-monitoring off the mains. For comparison, conventional powered speakers like the QSC K10's and JBL PRX612's have 90 degree horizontal coverage, which makes them easier to toe-in a little for monitoring without losing too much audience coverage at the sides. 

I'm sure this might be the ideal solution for some folks, especially if you need a very fast setup and minimal transport hassle. But since you'd need to add a passive mixer anyway for most applications (no EQ onboard) and it costs around $700, I think a better option would probably be picking up a single good powered speaker like a QSC K10 and a passive mixer, and then add a second K10 later for the full setup. 

These ultra-compact systems tend to look better on paper, or in a store, than they do out in the real world, compared to conventional PA systems. Great portability, yes, but there isn't a free lunch in the audio world. There are always trade-offs!

----------

craig.collas

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## Jim

This has been a very informative thread I've been following for weeks. I feel a need to say that I personally can't stand the "toe in" the mains idea. It just brings back my mid 70s set ups where I could never hear well enough. With powered cabinets and small acoustic amps as inexpensive and easy to move as they are now days, I just bring one as a monitor if I set up any kind of pa. The only time I don't is if I'm going the condensor mic way with nothing plugged in but the mics. With my 4 channel powered mixer I use with a duet & trio performance I use a 15 watt Behringer acoustic amp as a monitor and we can really hear ourselves. It's a one hand carry in with one extra cable. My ears are not what they used to be and I'm the first to admit it. However I feel you can either hear yourselves or you can't and if you can't you need a monitor. Just my 2cents.

----------

Ed Goist

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## Ed Goist

> ...snip...
> Thanks in large part to this thread, we now have a PA that more than meets our needs, and is also portable enough for us to easily haul to & from gigs. The system includes:
> 
> * Yamaha EMX88S 8-Channel Powered (800W bridged) Mixer
> * Gator GPA-720 Rolling Road Case For Powered Mixer
> * A pair of Peavey PR 10 Speakers used as mains (2 speaker stands, & 2 patch cables [20'])
> * Vocal microphones (two Heil PR-22; one Shure SM58; & one older, Shure 515)
> * Instruments are going through pre-amps and directly into the PA.
> ...snip...


I asked my wife to snap a pic of our system with her smartphone for this thread as we were setting up on Friday. You can see the powered mixer on the stage-left side of the table behind us, and the case for the mixer center stage behind our chairs. I  thought this would give you a feel for the size/portability of the system

----------

Barry Wilson, 

Jim, 

Tim2723

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## foldedpath

> This has been a very informative thread I've been following for weeks. I feel a need to say that I personally can't stand the "toe in" the mains idea. It just brings back my mid 70s set ups where I could never hear well enough. With powered cabinets and small acoustic amps as inexpensive and easy to move as they are now days, I just bring one as a monitor if I set up any kind of pa.


I hear 'ya. There is nothing worse than struggling to hear your own instrument, or the other musicians you're playing with. That can make or break a gig. 

Whether or not toe-in "monitoring" is a good idea depends on many things, like the dispersion angle of the mains, and especially how loud the ambient noise is at the venue. I always used floor wedges in noisy venues like bars or restaurants when the conversation levels are high, or if the room acoustics are just bad to begin with. In a very reflective environment, you need to hear a dry version of the mix, and not the output of the main speakers mixed with a wash of reflections off the ceiling and walls.

As it happens though, the last four gigs I've done have been outdoor weddings over a grass surface. That's a _really quiet_ ambient environment. The conversation levels are also fairly quiet at weddings, until the drinking and dancing starts later on. That's an ideal situation for edge-monitoring off our two K10 main speakers, and it saves a few minutes of setup and tear-down time if we don't use monitors. We can also sit or stand much closer to the speakers without feedback. 

There are other situations where this wouldn't work so well, like an outdoor farmer's market over pavement, with higher conversation levels nearby and maybe some nearby walls for reflections. Being able to hear what's coming off the main speakers is all about the mix of edge bleed (and bass leakage through the cabinet) vs. ambient reflections.

I have an EV ZXA-1 (8" powered speaker) to throw in the car when we need actual monitors. Or the tiny little TC VoiceSolo's, although the ZXA-1 sounds better (more "oomph" in the low end for the guitar player), so I usually bring that.




> However I feel you can either hear yourselves or you can't and if you can't you need a monitor. Just my 2cents.


Yep, that's the bottom line. If you can't hear yourself, then adding monitors is the way to go.

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## Tim2723

> I asked my wife to snap a pic of our system with her smartphone for this thread as we were setting up on Friday. You can see the powered mixer on the stage-left side of the table behind us, and the case for the mixer center stage behind our chairs. I  thought this would give you a feel for the size/portability of the system


It makes a nice small system and looks neat and clean.  I'm surprised you're able to spread out that much and not need monitors.  Keep what the others are saying in the back of your mind.  You'll probably run into a situation one day when the need for monitors becomes clearer.  But I'm a lot like you in that I don't care for monitors if I don't really need them, and I'm willing to struggle a little to avoid them if I can.  You can always throw some small monitors in the trunk of the car and leave them there until the times when you need them.  Your advantage with that setup is that you can use all passive monitors which are a lot more affordable.  The second amp inside the mixer will drive four monitors easily and allow for separate mix and EQ on the monitor line.

Quick question:  In the venues you've played so far, have you had to turn the amp up above mid-way yet?  My sense is that you're working at fairly tame volume levels playing to attentive crowds judging from the pictures you've posted.

BTW, can you post a bigger version of the pic so we can see more detail?  For some reason that one doesn't zoom when you click it.

----------

Jim

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## Patrick Sylvest

If there's anything one can draw from this thread it's that there are a multitude of economical ways to achieve the goal of compact, portable amplification. It's just a matter of finding what works for your particular needs.

----------

Jim

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## Tim2723

Hey Ed, how about posting a pic of one of the Peavey 10" sitting next to the 15" to give folks an idea of the portability?  I think a lot of readers would benefit from that.  We get a number of questions about 15" speakers around here and it's unusual to know somebody with large and small versions of the same product. 15" doesn't sound like much in the catalog and people are often shocked at just how big they are comparred to what a 10" can accomplish.

----------

Jim

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## Ed Goist

> ...snip...
> Quick question:  In the venues you've played so far, have you had to turn the amp up above mid-way yet?  My sense is that you're working at fairly tame volume levels playing to attentive crowds judging from the pictures you've posted.


Our venues/crowds have all been very attentive and quite so far. Each time we've used the PA up to this point we've actually adjusted the volume down from what we thought we'd need at the start of the gig. We haven't gotten anywhere near 12:00 yet.




> BTW, can you post a bigger version of the pic so we can see more detail?  For some reason that one doesn't zoom when you click it.


Let's try this...You should be able to click on this three times, with each click enlarging it. (_Beware the extreme "paleness" of the back of my legs...It could blind you!_ )



Oh, and I'll definitely take a picture of one of the PR-10 speakers next to a PR-15 at our next rehearsal.

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## Tim2723

That explains a lot about your need for monitors.  You haven't yet scratched the surface of what that amp can do.  As ambient noise and output volume increases your need for monitors will probably become better defined.  But no matter, you know what to do in that case.  Just be careful with that thing.  It is capable of producing sound at levels that can hurt you.

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## allenhopkins

> Trivia:  Do you know why 9v batteries are used as the standard for musicians gear even when they might have to be throttled back internally to a lower voltage and go dead so fast?  Nine volt batteries don't roll off the bar in the dark.  If everything uses the same battery you can steal one from something you don't need to power something you do….


I have some Electrovoice BK-1 condenser mics that I still use; must be 20+ years old now, but I really like the sound of them for vocals.  Put 'em up against Shure SM-58's any day.

Now that all or most of my PA mixers have phantom power, the fact that the BK-1's use 4.5-volt batteries isn't really an issue, but for years I was special-ordering the batteries through Radio Shack.  I still have four of the batteries sitting in a plastic bag in my basement refrigerator, unused, against the day when I'll have to use a BK-1 in a non-phantom application.  Can't pick up 4.5v batteries off the shelf anywhere.   They look like somewhat enlarged AA batteries, and, luckily, last a very long time in use; gather some of the Polaroid instant cameras used them too.

Bought a little 9v-powered "phantom" unit, insurance against having to use condenser mics directly plugged into my Passport 150, which doesn't have phantom power.  Handles two channels.

*Later:* *Harmony Central thread on the BK-1.*  I knew there was some reason I liked 'em and bought four, back in the day...

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## Tim2723

Sometimes I wonder if Allen is a musician or the curator of a museum.

----------

allenhopkins, 

Jim, 

Terry Allan Hall

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## allenhopkins

Me too.  Except I use all the "exhibits" from time to time.  Didn't keep the Shure VocalMaster, though; _there's_ a real museum piece of a "small portable PA."

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## oldwave

Hey I played many gigs with vocal master. Funny how the line arrays are coming back. Also we played many gigs with a tapco mixer and a salvaged amp from an electric piano. No eq effects or monitors. My favorite ev mike was. Pl6.

----------

Tim2723

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## Tim2723

There are a couple of groups that preserve the Vocal Master just as there are some clubs that keep the Ford Edsel alive.  If I understand what they say, there are only a couple of electronic flaws that made the Vocal Master less than what it could have been.  If you still had yours it might have been re-wired slightly to overcome the problems.  As I remember them they weren't too bad (We had one in my high school).  As long as you knew just where to whack it with a beer bottle it was fine. As far as portable, I remember it took six boys to carry it from the AV room the auditorium.

And BTW, I mean no disrespect.  The Vocal Master is the grandpappy of them all.

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## Ed Goist

> Hey Ed, how about posting a pic of one of the Peavey 10" sitting next to the 15" to give folks an idea of the portability?  I think a lot of readers would benefit from that.  We get a number of questions about 15" speakers around here and it's unusual to know somebody with large and small versions of the same product. 15" doesn't sound like much in the catalog and people are often shocked at just how big they are comparred to what a 10" can accomplish.


I just remembered that we supplied the PA for a Holiday Picnic/Jam on Saturday. Fortunately a friend snapped the pic below. You can see the PR15 speakers being used as the mains facing forward, and the PR10 speakers are being used as monitors (sitting on folding chairs in front of the stage and facing the stage). This should provide a decent comparison of the size.

Peavey PR15: 21.5" x 28.75" x 17" - 42 lbs.
Peavey PR10: 14" x 19.5" x 13.25" - 28 lbs.

The 14# difference is really noticeable when hauling the speakers. Also, the PR15s are incredibly bulky and difficult to transport in (fit into) most cars.

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## allenhopkins

> ...And BTW, I mean no disrespect.  The Vocal Master is the grandpappy of them all.


Only took high impedance mics, though.

If you had the "half columns," it was more or less "portable."  I had the big columns, and they were _heavy._

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## Tim2723

Yeah, they were a little heavy, especially for high school freshmen of the sort that haunted the AV club (read: not on the football tream), but actually the full six-speaker columns didn't weigh much more than Ed's 15" Peavey speakers in the picture above (thanks Ed!).  At least you didn't have to hoist them up onto tripods. The six-channel head was a major improvement being early solid state.  The big amplifier in the auditorium PA sytem was all tubes and seldom worked.  The Vocal Master wasn't the first PA of course, but it was a major step forward in portable band gear.  You could use low-Z mics if you had matching transformers; a product that curiously hasn't changed at all in half a century.  It wasn't as if there were thousands of mics to choose from anyway.

Kind of makes me realize how spoiled I've become having a six-channel PA with far more power and many times the features that I can carry in one hand.

For the curious, here's the VocalMaster manual:

http://edmullen.net/manuals/Shure_Vo...o_va300_ug.pdf

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## Terry Allan Hall

> I respectfully disagree, based on 30 years of gigging and owning/operating portable PA systems. Powered speakers have many advantages over the old-school approach of passive speakers and power amps, which is why they're taking over the market for both portable gear and large concert line array systems. 
> 
> The first advantage is bi-amping (or even tri-amping, but that won't usually be found in the weekend warrior systems we talk about here). This allows cleaner sound, because each speaker on either side of the crossover point gets its own matched power amp and driver. A hit on the kick drum or bass doesn't suck headroom from whatever is running through the driver for the highs. It's certainly possible to bi-amp a passive speaker cabinet, but in practice that's not something most weekend warriors are going to know how to do, or want to bother with. 
> 
> The second advantage with powered speakers is dedicated DSP (digital signal processing). Most powered speakers now on the market include at least some DSP for fine-tuning the EQ response of the speakers, and providing limit protection. Some speakers, like the QSC K-series speakers I use, include advanced tricks like dynamically shifting the crossover point as the speaker reaches maximum output, to protect the low-end driver and let the speaker reach maximum SPL output. Speaking of protection, it's almost impossible to blow a powered speaker by overdriving it, because the limiter will just kick in before the amp starts to clip with a too-hot signal. With a passive speaker, you'd better know what you're doing when matching it with a power amp. Powered speakers are _much_ better for newbies to running PA speakers in that respect. Blown speakers are expensive to repair.
> 
> Some of the newest powered speakers include other DSP features like built-in mini mixers, and even auto-feedback reduction circuits. I'm a bit skeptical about that one, but it's a trend we're going to see more of, I think.
> 
> The third major advantage of powered speakers is lighter overall weight for the gear carried to the gig, because the amps get a "free" enclosure in the speaker cabinet shell that you're carrying anyway.
> ...


I'm glad you like powered speakers/passive mixers, but they have no advantage over powered mixer/passive speaker rigs. One system is as dependable as another, if you use quality components.

And, as a matter of fact, I owned a pair of SRM450s, and while they were acceptable sounding, they weren't an improvement over my Carvin rig, and I eventually sold them for a slight profit. 

Been happy with Carvin PA gear since 1977, and have never had one to stop working...still have my 1st one, a 100-watt 4-channel, which gets used mostly as a loaner, along with a couple of 12" + horn cabs, and occasionally for other uses. My Gospel-singer cousin has my 200-watt 6-channel Carvin, which I bought a few years after the 1st one. Sold the 8-channel (2 X 250watts) when I got the 12-channel.

Carvins, with intelligent care, are great!  :Cool:

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## almeriastrings

> I'm glad you like powered speakers/passive mixers, but they have no advantage over powered mixer/passive speaker rigs. One system is as dependable as another, if you use quality components.


It does not matter if they are the best quality in the world - but the redundancy element of having multiple power amplifiers available wins out over relying on just one any time. The built-in bi-amplification is also a huge plus in favor of powered speakers: there is no hard-wired crossover to burn out and waste energy, for one thing. You can perfectly match a pair of power amplifiers to the LF and HF drivers. Much more efficient, and instead of relying on inductor-based X-overs, you will be using more accurate (and adjustable) electronic X-overs. Also, today, certainly in the higher end units, the power amplifiers will be Class D. Very little heat generation for the power delivered, high reliability, and incredibly low weight (no transformers). There are also fewer capacitance, resistance and induction effects as a consequence of no need for long cable runs carrying heavy currents on the outputs. It all adds up to a very attractive and high performance package, hence, their popularity.

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## Tim2723

Like Terry, I too have never had an amplifier fail in some forty years of playing.  But like the Sword of Damocles, the threat of it hung constantly over my head to the point that I carried redundant powered mixers.  Powered speakers have not removed any of the risk that an amplifier might fail, but they have provided a very convenient security blanket.  

Two things not mentioned are that first, powered speakers enable a modular design allowing a performer to choose from a small coffeehouse rig to a massive multi-thousand watt coliseum system and everything in between.  Second, and I think this is even more important, powered speakers are where the money is going.  All the research is directed to the newest technology.  The next major advancement in sound reinforcement, whatever that may be, will emerge from powered speaker technology.

Is this to say that the traditional powered mixer /passive speaker concept is going away?  Certainly not.  Even now you can easily buy a PA system that is not very far removed from the Shure Vocal Master.  But the next great thing will not come from that evolutionary dead end.

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## oldwave

Powered speakers are what I use now also, however, I do wish someone would make a lightweight 3 way powered speaker with a 6.5 cone mid-range and a 12 like the old Community S series.  For many years I used a 3 way Community with a 15 on the bottom and it always sounded so much better than the two way systems, paper in the mid-range smooths out the harshness for acoustic music.  Biggest problem was the darn things were 80 lbs and I am 61. The 12s were only 53 lbs but are discontinued.  (Also I have noticed the cheaper two way speaker the harsher them seem to sound in that critical mid-range but the Community speakers were always high quality in there mid range and up series).  My compromise is going to two Yamaha DSR 8s and a 12 inch Yamaha sub-woofer (on order) that's heavy but I have wheels. The DSRs sound really good and are cheaper than the QSC K series. Its a great time for us old guys as the equipment gets lighter all the time and sounds great.

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## foldedpath

> Powered speakers are what I use now also, however, I do wish someone would make a lightweight 3 way powered speaker with a 6.5 cone mid-range and a 12 like the old Community S series.  For many years I used a 3 way Community with a 15 on the bottom and it always sounded so much better than the two way systems, paper in the mid-range smooths out the harshness for acoustic music.  Biggest problem was the darn things were 80 lbs and I am 61.


Even with today's lightweight Class-D amps and neodymium magnet speakers, the weight still adds up to a heavy speaker when it's 3-way with a cone speaker midrange. There's just no way around it, mainly due to the speaker weight and larger cabinet size. 

With the current trend toward bi-amped powered speakers over a sub, there aren't many manufacturers still making integrated tri-amped cabinets. 

The closest thing to what you're looking for in a 3-way is probably the new Line6 StageSource L3m, although it still weighs 57.5 lbs. It uses two 10" speakers and a 1" compression driver/horn. If I read the specs right, one 10" speaker handles everything under 250 Hz, the second one covers 250 Hz to 2 kHz - 7 kHz  (adjustable per speaker mode), and the compression driver handles the highs above that point. So you'd have a 10" speaker handling the midrange frequencies as with the old passive 3-way setups. Then again, 57 lbs.... woof! I just crossed over the 60 year age point myself, and that's about twice what I want to lift up on a speaker pole, or pack in the car, these days.

For what it's worth... I used to buy into the idea that you needed a paper speaker cone to get smooth and natural-sounding reproduction in the midrange where acoustic instruments (mostly) live. The conventional wisdom was that compression drivers/horns were harsh-sounding by comparison. But these new bi-amped designs -- especially once you get up into larger 1.75" and 2" compression drivers -- sound much better to my ears than the old gear I used to use. They're not like the bad old horn designs with cheap piezo drivers any more, except at the lowest end of the price range. And the big advantage with a compression driver coupled to a waveguide (horn) is wide dispersion across the audience, which is hard to get with a single paper cone speaker.

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oldwave

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## Barry Wilson

I used one of those small mackies directly in front on the mic stand this weekend and I hated it. it wasn't mine, and was setup that way for the other musicians. I had to turn it down as being so close it was too much in your face. I much prefer it off to the side. only 2 mics on stage. Bass player and I shared a mic for one song with floor monitors. prefer that by far.

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## TonyP

I don't like the sound of the little Mackie's that close either. I also don't like the way they mount on a mic stand. But when you get away from them, I think they sound better than a wedge. I guess it's all what you are used to, but I've never liked wedges. I don't get needing a 12 and some kind of horn blasting away from the floor. 

In highfi and studio monitoring, it has always been about having the speaker approx. at head height. So my little 150's are mounted off the back of the main speaker stands, pointing at the band about head height and level. They have more than enough umph to cover the whole band(from 3 to 6 players depending on the setup) and so far everybody's been happy.

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## Barry Wilson

I thought I would pop back on this thread. I have had some dreadful luck with these little mackies. The first one we had me with the godin in one channel and a mic for harmonica in the other. it was just over 3 on master volume. we played about 4 songs in first set with the house band, second set nothing. Power light just pulsed and no sound. The music store replaced it right away with a new one. I used it once and it has been put away a while since I havent needed it. I plugged it in last weekend to rehearse some stuff with a drummer. just for vocals.... blue light was pulsing, no sound. The music store had me call Mackie. They are sending me another new one out but they are back ordered, so I have to wait...

I am running down to the music store for a couple powered yorkvilles today. And I am getting a store credit on my account when the mackie finally arrives. I am not even going to open the box for the little guy.

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## mandroid

Doesnt Yorkville come from 'across the pond'?
 Suppose CDNs get UK gear  as commonly as stuff from south of the border.

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## Barry Wilson

Canadian made stuff that Yorkville  :Wink:  .. being we were british commonwealth, we still use the terms hehe http://www.yorkville.com/

I ended up getting a couple passive yorkville monitors and an art power amp. now I have the floor monitors covered. I am hosting an open jam sunday and we are the house band. fun as I get to play bass, guitar, mando. we back up the drop in musicians when needed after we play. 

I just lost faith in the reliability of those mackies. my keyboard amp is a yorkville and I use it for acoustic stuff as well as midi guitar. sometimes it was my pa too hehe as it has an xlr on ch1.

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## mandroid

Y'Ha has a nice PA , 4 channel powered mixer , is removable from one, 

 if you get the 2nd one the same space can stow cables in the cabinet. 

 then you get stands to get them up a ways .

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## Terry Allan Hall

> *It does not matter if they are the best quality in the world - but the redundancy element of having multiple power amplifiers available wins out over relying on just one any time.* The built-in bi-amplification is also a huge plus in favor of powered speakers: there is no hard-wired crossover to burn out and waste energy, for one thing. You can perfectly match a pair of power amplifiers to the LF and HF drivers. Much more efficient, and instead of relying on inductor-based X-overs, you will be using more accurate (and adjustable) electronic X-overs. Also, today, certainly in the higher end units, the power amplifiers will be Class D. Very little heat generation for the power delivered, high reliability, and incredibly low weight (no transformers). There are also fewer capacitance, resistance and induction effects as a consequence of no need for long cable runs carrying heavy currents on the outputs. It all adds up to a very attractive and high performance package, hence, their popularity.


Not if you think in advance and have the right amount of power...in almost 40 years of earning my living as a troubadour, I've never found any venue that didn't have a house system if my rig wasn't powerful enough. As for weight, my PA1200 weighs 28#, the cabs 30#. And, I'm not kidding, there's no advantage of one style over the other, which is why approx. as many powered mixer/passive cab set-ups are in use as passive mixer/active cab set-ups. Both are good.  :Cool: 

And I've never had an audience member or venue management ever question me as to why I don't follow the latest "fad" in PA gear...quality wins out, whichever style you choose, and there's a reason why Carvin, like Fender, has been in business for over 60 years.  :Wink:

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## Terry Allan Hall

> Canadian made stuff that Yorkville  .. being we were british commonwealth, we still use the terms hehe http://www.yorkville.com/
> 
> I ended up getting a couple passive yorkville monitors and an art power amp. now I have the floor monitors covered. I am hosting an open jam sunday and we are the house band. fun as I get to play bass, guitar, mando. we back up the drop in musicians when needed after we play. 
> 
> I just lost faith in the reliability of those mackies. my keyboard amp is a yorkville and I use it for acoustic stuff as well as midi guitar. sometimes it was my pa too hehe as it has an xlr on ch1.


Yorkville makes good stuff...Mackie used to be good, too, but, apparently, QC is not doing their job, judging from how much new Mackie gear gets sent back.

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## Barry Wilson

well as monitors the yorkvilles with the art amp was superb. I hosted the jam yesterday. all the acoustic players incl a flamenco guy used the yorky kb amp, and even when things got rocking we never turned the monitors above 1/4 

mackie did pay for purolator to pick up and return the defective unit, I will give them that. they said my replacement had been ordered and shipped out but no tracking info yet. I am saddened the mackie didn't pan out better but I think I will find another micro amp to fit in my motorcycle trunk when I need it.

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## TonyP

I'm sorry the Mackie didn't pan out too. I'll be honest after pulling out one right after I bought it and have it DOA out of the box it didn't instill confidence. Knock on wooden head, they have been great for me for 3yrs now. You might want to look into the Behringer clone of the 150. My buddy bought one and been gigging constantly with it and it never let him down. They are a little cheaper than the Mackie and seem to sound and function the same. But I also don't put them on the mic stand, they sound a lot better further away than right in your face. I do wish there was a swivel function on the bottom mount so you can angle them better than the set angle they now have. I wonder what the blinking blue light means?

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