# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Waterlox Marine High Gloss

## Forestfloor1

Testing something out: going for the 20s varnish the Loars had, which by all Scientific accounts seem to be Water dye, shellac sealer, phenolic linseed oil varnish (an old Benjamin Moore quick dry?), and some kind of spirit varnish via french polish as a topper. Behlen Rock Hard changed its formula to poly as many of you might know, leaving me searching for another good linseed / phenolic varnish option. Read about Epifanes gloss which is what Collings I believe uses (right?) on its varnish models. Welp, my local woodcraft had Waterlox Marine, which is phenolic, but its Tung oil, but the way I see it, both are similar (Tung : Linseed as Tomato : Tomato) - the important ingredient being the phenolic. Then, on the hunt for spirit varnish, but Im hearing some folks use tru oil as a French Polish topper to make it nice and shiny. Any suggestions? What do you use for varnishes?

----------


## sunburst

Yeah, I went through all of that. Rockhard, Tru Value, Epifanes... 
Learn to use a finish and it either changes or leaves the market. Lately I've sort of settled on the Epifanes with a Tru-oil top coat. I decided I'd avoid some frustration and not be so picky about what oils and resins are in the varnish I use because I have no control over changing formulas and market trends.

I once did a shellac FP over oil varnish and that mandolin now looks 100 years old with fine spider-webbing in the shellac. It looks good in a "distressed" sort of way, but it was not the look I had intended. TO stays glossy and I have yet to see it craze so I've continued with it.

----------


## j. condino

For all the time you'll spend searching for a commercial product that will inevitably change their formula, you are probably better off learning to make a good version of your own finish. Since Lloyd Loar was a known fiddle nerd and they universally worship Antonio Stradivari, my guess it that replicating the classic 1714 varnish formula is very close to what they were using. There are dozens of sites that cover making this.

I spent the afternoon mixing up a batch for my own use: a bit of shellac, a bit of sandarac, a little mastic, frankincense, propolis, and lavender oil, decanted, and then cooked. The cooking is a major component that most people overlook. I'm not a chemist, but my understanding is that it  creates a chemical reaction among the parts that polymerizes them and creates a more durable, faster curing, and centuries old proven formula.

----------


## pheffernan

> Since Lloyd Loar was a known fiddle nerd and they universally worship Antonio Stradivari, my guess it that replicating the classic 1714 varnish formula is very close to what they were using. There are dozens of sites that cover making this.


Since you so often remind us of the realities of factory building, Im surprised you expect a witchs cauldron of finish brewing in Kalamazoo. One of the most interesting threads in the archives here suggested a far more prosaic alternative:



https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...ibson-Finishes

----------

j. condino

----------


## jackc

I used Waterlox Gloss on a recent Torrefied Red Spruce over Brazilian guitar build. The look is fine, and it buffed out to a nice finish, but I feel like it is a heavy finish, something you may want on floors, but maybe not on tonewood. The guitar has a pretty dark sound. Of course, it's some very dense Brazilian, and the top is French Polish over shellac. I really like the look of the top finish, and will probably use it again. Not very durable, but I like the look. So my humble opinion is that Waterlox is not a great finish for musical instruments. Maybe better for mandolins than guitars. I will probably take James Condino's advice and (very carefully) cook up some 1704 Spirit Varnish and give that a try on the next archtop instrument I build, whether mandolin or archtop guitar. I can attest to the beauty of John Hamlett's finish, having owned a very nice F-5 of his, but I don't have his technique down and have little experience with Tru-Oil. All I know is that it looks great when John uses it.

----------


## jackc

Pre-made 1704 varnish is available here:
https://www.violins.ca/varnish/violi...sh.htmlhttp://
Not recommending this, just posting the link.

And a link to the formula and instructions on making it:
https://www.violins.ca/info/docs/pdf/1704i_varnish.pdf

----------

j. condino

----------


## j. condino

The "witches brew" formula adds eye of newt and toad stool... :Wink:

----------

pheffernan

----------


## HoGo

> Pre-made 1704 varnish is available here:
> https://www.violins.ca/varnish/violi...sh.htmlhttp://
> Not recommending this, just posting the link.
> 
> And a link to the formula and instructions on making it:
> https://www.violins.ca/info/docs/pdf/1704i_varnish.pdf


Be carefull with these violin varnishes. They tend to be very temperamental. Both at application and then at drying and sometimes long after... The ingredients are not as simple as they seem and different vendors will sell you quite different resins under the same name. So it its formulation is unreliable right from te start. And it has short shelf life...
Loar era mandolins almost certainly spotted oil varnish. I personally think they used it right over the color as sealer as it wouldn't smear the colors as spirit varnish would. FP was used to get the gloss.

----------


## sunburst

> ...I personally think they used it [oil varnish] right over the color as sealer as it wouldn't smear the colors as spirit varnish would...


I believe there was a sealer of some sort. I've seen too many with finish layers showing in areas of wear to think there was nothing under the varnish.
FWIW, I use shellac (with a little sandarac) as a sealer under oil varnish. I avoid disturbing the color by spraying the sealer. A couple of very thin wash coats of material.

----------

j. condino

----------


## Schneidly

> For all the time you'll spend searching for a commercial product that will inevitably change their formula, you are probably better off learning to make a good version of your own finish. Since Lloyd Loar was a known fiddle nerd and they universally worship Antonio Stradivari, my guess it that replicating the classic 1714 varnish formula is very close to what they were using. There are dozens of sites that cover making this.
> 
> I spent the afternoon mixing up a batch for my own use: a bit of shellac, a bit of sandarac, a little mastic, frankincense, propolis, and lavender oil, decanted, and then cooked. The cooking is a major component that most people overlook. I'm not a chemist, but my understanding is that it  creates a chemical reaction among the parts that polymerizes them and creates a more durable, faster curing, and centuries old proven formula.



Ive been following this thread with great interest and it has brought up two questions I have regarding finish. 

First, what is the purpose of french polishing shellac or Tru-Oil over the top of an oil varnish? Is there something about the oil varnish that doesnt look or feel right on its own? 

Second, Im considering doing some form of spirit varnish for my build and have been looking predominantly at the 1704 recipe variation from violins.ca that was linked above. Ive added it here for reference:

*1704 Recipe Variation (violins.ca)*
45 grams seedlac
5 grams gum mastic
5 grams gum sandarac
200 ml. alcohol
5-7 ml. Lavender spike oil 

In addition to Mr. Condino's list of ingredients above, Ive seen where other builders mention using some other resins in addition to or in lieu of some in the 1704 recipe. But I cant seem to find a resource that delineates what properties those other resins add to the varnish. Is there a book or site that discusses the pros/cons of various resins in instrument spirit varnish? For a first time user, are there any recommended adjustments to the violins.ca 1704 Variation that should be made to help ensure a good result? My plan is to wipe-on/french polish the 1704 Variation over a spray can applied seal coat of Zinsser shellac (I dont have spray equipment). I am open to any suggestions and insights you all may have. 

Thank you!
Greg


Properties added by resins:
Sandarac - Adds hardness (per violins.ca)
Gum Mastic - Aids adhesion between layers (per violins.ca)
Frankincense - ?
Propolis - ?
Copal - ?

----------


## sunburst

> ...what is the purpose of french polishing shellac or Tru-Oil over the top of an oil varnish? Is there something about the oil varnish that doesnt look or feel right on its own? ...


Oil varnishes do not "bite back" like lacquers and spirit varnishes. In other words, each successive coat of lacquer partially dissolves the coats beneath it so that the film of finish that is built up is essentially one layer of solid lacquer. Spirit varnishes do that too, though perhaps not to the degree that lacquers do.
Oil varnishes do not redissolve so they are built up in layers. When level sanding and buffing, the edges of layers that are sanded through can be visible as "witness lines". 
With many oil varnishes, waiting long enough before buffing (or re-buffing) can eliminate witness lines, but instead of waiting (months in most cases) we can add a gloss top coat and not have to worry about witness lines. That is the purpose of FP or TO over oil varnish.
Personally, I like the look and feel of a Truoil finish, but building a pure TO finish over a sealer takes many many coats and thus quite a bit of time, so I like to build with varnish before using TO.

----------

Schneidly, 

soliver, 

Timbofood

----------


## Schneidly

> With many oil varnishes, waiting long enough before buffing (or re-buffing) can eliminate witness lines, but instead of waiting (months in most cases) we can add a gloss top coat and not have to worry about witness lines. That is the purpose of FP or TO over oil varnish.



Thank you for explaining that John! That makes a lot of sense.

----------


## Timbofood

> Since you so often remind us of the realities of factory building, I’m surprised you expect a witch’s cauldron of finish brewing in Kalamazoo. One of the most interesting threads in the archives here suggested a far more prosaic alternative:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...ibson-Finishes


That was used at the factory quite regularly according to Al Lakey of Lakey art material here in Kalamazoo, Al has passed to the larger life some years back but, he said that every now and again someone would come over to the shop and get some. Al was pretty cool, lots of local history will never be known since he’s gone.

----------


## Charles E.

I was reminded of this article in GAL a few years ago......

http://www.shellacfinishes.com/wp-co...y_RoyalLac.pdf

Maybe Max and/or Andrew will chime in to see if they still use it.

----------


## Marty Jacobson

This mandolin has Waterlox "high gloss" on it and nothing else: 
http://martinjacobson.com/id/project...tring-mandolin


I also finished a guitar in this same finish. Sprayed it on. It cured rock hard after only a couple of years.

Great finishes! Just takes some patience. Also, your sanding and joinery better be finger-tip-kissing perfect.

----------


## soliver

I finished my kitchen counter tops with Waterlox, does that count?  :Laughing:  ... in all seriousness, it's a great finish for that application.

Marty did recommend it to me for a Guitar I refurbed... it worked ok for me, but I don't have any point for comparison. 



I am actually in the throes of my first build and thought it's still a good ways away from finishing but I have had finishing on my mind... I SO appreciate John Hamlett's description above!

----------


## Parker135

> I believe there was a sealer of some sort. I've seen too many with finish layers showing in areas of wear to think there was nothing under the varnish.
> FWIW, I use shellac (with a little sandarac) as a sealer under oil varnish. I avoid disturbing the color by spraying the sealer. A couple of very thin wash coats of material.


So John, just to recap your process....you begin with a couple of light coats of shellac with sandarac, apply Epifanes Gloss Clear Marine Varnish (with rag, I assume), and finish with Tru-Oil?

I'm finishing a couple of flat top mandolins (my second and third-ever builds) and after many coats of Tru-Oil and the realization that I should have spent a little more time with the sandpaper beforehand, I'm ready to try your process on my next one.

Thanks,
Parker

----------


## sunburst

Parker, I spray the Epifanes, thinned with lacquer thinner.
So, dyes rubbed directly on the wood, a couple of light sprayed coats of shellac, quick scuff sand, sprayed varnish to build, Truoil rubbed (rub it on/rub it off process). I hardly ever end the TO process at the same stage. Sometimes I can manage to rub to a nice, soft gloss, sometimes I hand buff with Novus 2, sometimes I re-coat after the Novus 2... whatever it takes to get the gloss I want.

----------

soliver

----------


## Parker135

Ah, okay.  Not having a proper spraying setup at this point, I'd probably resort to applying the varnish with a rag, but I can certainly follow your sequence.  Thank you!

----------


## Dick Hutchings

You'll probably want a spray can of shellac to lock in the colors. Or you could use a pre-val sprayer for this step using fresh mixed flakes. There's really no need to skip this step for lack of equipment.

----------


## Parker135

Okay.  I'll look into that.  I have a large enough compressor in my garage and a couple of small spray guns, but my workshop is a nearby converted one-horse stable, too small for a spray setup.  I have thought about getting a K bottle of nitrogen and regulator to use with my small spray tent that I use with rattle cans.  Guess I'm getting off topic.  I'll have a look at spray cans or the pre-val.  Thanks!

----------


## Dale Ludewig

Don't apply varnish with a rag. You can probably pull it off with a foam brush.  Or use a high quality brush that's probably going to cost $10-20, but cleaned after every use will last 20 years. Money well spent even if one has a full blown spray setup. IMHO.

----------


## Parker135

I guess I need to do some research on varnishing!  I assumed (first mistake) that varnish could be applied like a wipe-on poly.  I've applied spar varnish that way, but not on something where finish looks are really important.  I don't mind the investment in a good brush.

----------


## Dick Hutchings

Brushing varnish scares me, I'm not that good with a brush. I should practice it on some shop tools. Epifanes sounds to dangerous to spray for me. That's something I want to get away from. I sure wish the waterborne stuff was up to par, I'm waiting for someone on this forum to give it the thumbs up so I can try it again. Finishing, bleh.

----------


## rcc56

Some builders who finished instruments without spray equipment:
Antonio Stradivari, Antonio de Torres, Manuel Ramirez, Santos Hernandez, the C.F. Martin Co., the Lyon & Healy Co., many thousands of violin and 'cello makers, and, oh yes, the Gibson Company.

If you're not yet good with a brush, practice.
Also, you might try using finishes that are intended to be brushed, such as violin maker's varnishes.  It also does not hurt to study violin finishing techniques.  There's loads of information available about what they use and how they apply it, including thinning and brush techniques.

----------

j. condino

----------


## peter.coombe

> I sure wish the waterborne stuff was up to par, I'm waiting for someone on this forum to give it the thumbs up so I can try it again.


It is up to par.  I use Target Coatings EM2000 which is an alkyd resin based (i.e. an oil varnish) in a water emulsion.  It can be brushed or sprayed.  I brush it on, but like all finishes it does require good brushing technique.  As already stated, if your brushing technique is not good then practice until you get it right.  See - http://petercoombe.com/publications/jaamim11.htm

----------


## Dick Hutchings

I tried that about 12 years ago but I was spraying and couldn't control the craters. Maybe my shop was too dusty. I'd love to brush it on, I don't mind a little extra sanding. Maybe next time I'll build a little clean room for doing it with a brush although I now have an overhead air cleaner which might help with that.

----------


## Dick Hutchings

> It is up to par.  I use Target Coatings EM2000 which is an alkyd resin based (i.e. an oil varnish) in a water emulsion.  It can be brushed or sprayed.  I brush it on, but like all finishes it does require good brushing technique.  As already stated, if your brushing technique is not good then practice until you get it right.  See - http://petercoombe.com/publications/jaamim11.htm


Peter thanks so much for that tutorial, I'll give it another try following your procedure.

----------


## JimCh

Here in the UK anyway it seems to me that water based paints for ordinary domestic use have come in in leaps and bounds in recent years. Just no comparison. The paint chemists have really made progress. So I suggest that any experience from a few years ago is of limited value. Mind you I have a mate who is now enthusing about UV cured finishes for luthiery...

----------


## soliver

I built a canoe in college and brushed on marine varnish with a foam brush. ... mostly because I HATE cleaning brushes. I actually liked how thin I could lay on the varnish with it. I remember being concerned about the varnish "joint" where one brush stroke encounters the next but that was a non-issue.

I'd love a basic step by step of the process like John Hamlet described if he or someone else doesn't mind sharing:... # of coats in each: spray shellac, varnish, etc?... any sanding or buffing?

Also how do you account for a speed neck?... I remember Ken Ratcliff describing time me his process while he was building my Econo A as a different product and process for that. ... thanks in advance!

----------


## Forestfloor1

Okay, here's before varnish, and after: 





So, I had a piece of "scrap" wood laying around - and I've been trying out my 20's stain and varnish recipe. It's coming along well. Waterbase transtints, (various dilutions of amber, red mahogany, medium brown and walnut), shellac sealer, thinned sprayed Waterlox Marine, Tru Oil. Still putting on some Tru Oil, and will spirit varnish the top - IF the Tru Oil doesn't suffice (it might just be fine after the layers are on). Sure looks nice in the afternoon sun!

----------

Schneidly

----------


## soliver

Hey all, what's the consensus on grain filler?... do you guys feel it a necessity or no? I've been working through Graham's book and he recommends it particularly for woods like mahogany... what say you?

----------


## Bill McCall

I like filler stained to highlight the wood, black filler with mahogany instruments. Gurian Guitars had a most wonderful gloss finish done that way, looked so deep you could stick your hand in it.

As far as necessary, I think it’s required to fill the pores one way or another to prevent dimples.  Ymmv

----------


## Schneidly

That's looking great Jeff!

----------


## soliver

Working on some test pieces and I notice how thick the Epifanes brushes on. Its lovely, but one coat on seems very thick... using a foam brush. A friend is going to loan me his HVLP sprayer to try. ... Is it 1:1 with the Epifanes to Lacquer thinner?

----------


## sunburst

> ...Is it 1:1 with the Epifanes to Lacquer thinner?


I don't know. 
It will depend on your spray equipment, your familiarity and skill level with the spray equipment, temperature conditions etc.
When I spray varnish thinned with lacquer thinner, I simply add thinner until I get the viscosity I want to spray. For me, that can be a fairly wide range because I've sprayed so many different finishes over so many years with so many different spray set-ups that I just adapt to the characteristics of the material and equipment as I spray. That means I don't measure viscosity beyond watching to see how it runs and drips off of a stir stick. You'll just have to experiment.

BTW, if you want to brush thinner coats of varnish you can try thinning the varnish with mineral spirits. 
(You can also spray varnish thinned with mineral spirits, but that will _really_ test your spray gun skills as well as your cleanliness and "dust-freeness" of your spray area.)

----------

soliver

----------


## soliver

Thanks SO much John... I so appreciate having such knowledge and experience so easily available!... LOVE the cafe!!!!

----------


## Richard500

Fast drying means less dust as John says, and fewer runs on vertical surfaces.  Fast dry also means recoat and corrections are quick.  Slow dry gives better flow, less chance of overspray textures.  But as said, lots of variables.  Something like cooking versus baking.  A cook adapts on the fly, a baker hews close to quantitative, repeatable recipe. I also fail to measure and record those details, and change dilution, pressure by observation.  This is not the best way to get consistency or to pass on technique. Shameful.

----------


## soliver

Thanks Richard... I'm going to try to brush on with My test pieces with a mineral spirits and Epifanes mix.

----------


## soliver

Lesson learned from mixing varnish with mineral spirits and brushing... it will brush on thinner indeed, but the lower viscosity makes it necessary for the surface to lay flat for a time to prevent runs, before it can be hung up to dry. Unfortunately, laying down longer lead to a little bit of dust infection (plus I probably should've protected it a little better). .... hopefully I have luck with the sprayer.

----------


## Istvan

Just going over past posts of those using Epifanes.  I started using it a few months ago and I will never go back to anything else.  I do have one question.  I am using a 50/50 mix with mineral oil and it take about 4-8 coats to get a good build up.  Is it necessary to sand or scuff between each coat?

----------


## Istvan

Sorry about that.  I meant to say I am using a 1/3 1/3 1/3 mix of Epifanes, Tung oil, Mineral spirits.

----------


## sunburst

> ...I started using it [Epifanes] a few months ago and I will never go back to anything else.  I do have one question.  I am using a 50/50 mix with mineral oil and it take about 4-8 coats to get a good build up.  Is it necessary to sand or scuff between each coat?


That's an optimistic attitude! When the product leaves the market or the formula gets changed you will go forward (rather than back) to something else. That, at least, has been the case with nearly every finish I have learned to use.

50/50 mineral oil? Not mineral spirits? I don't see how that can work.
It is necessary to sand before any coat applied to a cured coat. In other words, we can apply 2 coats while the first is still "wet", but after it has cured for a day we need to sand.

Edit:
The second post wasn't there. Mineral spirits makes more sense.

----------


## Istvan

Thanks!  I don't see much difference with or without adding the Tung Oil, but I was just trying what an old cabinet maker told me.  What do you think?

----------


## sunburst

I'd leave out the tung oil. Old cabinet makers, furniture refinishes and so forth loved linseed oil and tung oil. There is plenty of oil already in the varnish, it is a "known quantity" as is. The Epifanes being discussed here is a spar varnish, and that generally means a long oil varnish, meaning it has a higher ratio of oil to resin (as opposed to a short oil varnish which has a lower ratio of oil to resin). The main reason for the long oil formula is more flexibility in the cured film making it more suitable for the rigors of exterior use on boats, spars and so forth. Instruments are not usually subjected to similar amounts of sun, wind, temperature shifts, salt spray and so forth, so they don't really need as much oil. In fact, I'd like to find a good short or medium oil varnish, preferably with phenolic resin (like the old rockhard).

----------


## Istvan

OK, I'll leave out the Tung Oil and go back to the 50/50 mix of Varnish and Mineral Spirits.  I really like the results, but it does take a long time to cure.  Have you found anything better?  I'm always up for trying something else.

----------


## sunburst

I haven't found anything better for brushing. For spraying I reduce the varnish with lacquer thinner. You might be able to use less mineral spirits. You only need enough to get the results you want.

----------


## Istvan

> I haven't found anything better for brushing. For spraying I reduce the varnish with lacquer thinner. You might be able to use less mineral spirits. You only need enough to get the results you want.


OK, for brushing what mix would you use and would that mix change with recoats?

----------


## sunburst

> OK, for brushing what mix would you use and would that mix change with recoats?


I don't know. I would practice on scrap, first with the undiluted varnish, then add small quantities (recording the amounts and proportions) until the material was brushing and flowing to my satisfaction. I'd use the same mix for all coats.

----------


## Istvan

OK, that's what I did and how I came up with the 50/50 mix, so I guess I'll keep using that ratio.
Thanks for your input.  That really helped.

----------


## HoGo

> OK, that's what I did and how I came up with the 50/50 mix, so I guess I'll keep using that ratio.
> Thanks for your input.  That really helped.


Epifanes has been recommended by several builders. I myself am planning to give it a try when I run out of my current varnish (no more in production).
SOme folks add the Epifanes accelerator up to 50% which is mix of resins and other stuff that will make the varnish harder and more scratch resistant and will dry faster, essentially turning it into short-oil varnish.
I agree adding tung oil is strange as Epifanes is based on tung.
For spraying folks use acetone as thinner for oil varnishes. It will flesh off fast leaving just varnish to dry. Less risk of runs.
I don't know how different is my current varnish from Epifanes but I brush it straight from can (consistency of maple syrup) with relatively stiff brush (I found brushes from cheap IKEA set of child brshes work great and last) and 3-5 coats is all I need before I sand for French polish.

----------


## Istvan

Thanks for the tip about the accelerator.  That sounds exactly what I'm looking for to give me faster drying time and harder surface.
Do you varnish directly onto stained wood or do you seal first with sealer?  I find that putting down the varnish directly over the stain I get stain bleed into the varnish.

----------


## amowry

> I was reminded of this article in GAL a few years ago......
> 
> http://www.shellacfinishes.com/wp-co...y_RoyalLac.pdf
> 
> Maybe Max and/or Andrew will chime in to see if they still use it.


I used it on a few batches of instruments, but had severe problems with checking after a few years and had to refinish them all. So, Im done being a finish tester :Wink: .

----------

Charles E., 

Schneidly

----------


## HoGo

Ouch, that hurts to hear!

----------


## HoGo

> Thanks for the tip about the accelerator.  That sounds exactly what I'm looking for to give me faster drying time and harder surface.
> Do you varnish directly onto stained wood or do you seal first with sealer?  I find that putting down the varnish directly over the stain I get stain bleed into the varnish.


I'm not using Epifanes now, but I'm on my last can of varnish (Polish brand Sniezka - not in production any more) so I 'll have to get something new and Epifanes would be my first choice given the reviews (although it is hard to get locally - not too many Yacht shops in this inland country).
I airbrush one or two misty coats of shellac to seal the color and wood, scrape bindings and spray again to cover bindings with same layer of shellac (for adhesion). Then brush the oil varnish. The most important thing in brushing oil varnish is to lay it on thin so it won't run. You can thin the varnish with mineral spirits or other solvents, but that will require brushing it in even thinner layer. I don't sand between layers if I'm applying new layer within 12 hours or so - the surface is still slightly sticky feeling so the next layer holds well. I don't care about witness lines later as I'm FPing the surface. I don't remove any dust particles between layers unless they are visible to naked eye. Most often they are invisible microscopic particles and just the reflections of the nibs in shiny varnish makes them stand out like sore thumb. I only sand after last coat had enough time to cure for final FP.

----------


## Istvan

How many coats does it take and is that Sniezka a long varnish?

Istvan

----------


## bbcee

RE: post #45: "_In fact, I'd like to find a good short or medium oil varnish, preferably with phenolic resin (like the old rockhard)_"

I brushed Rockhard, thinned to maple syrup consistency, on an electric I built in 2001. It went on great, but it was so yellow! 

It really did make a nice finish - and yes, it was rock hard  :Smile:

----------


## HoGo

> How many coats does it take and is that Sniezka a long varnish?
> 
> Istvan


The SNiezka varnish is "phtalic varnish" I guess it is most likely short-oil. I don't think I ever used more than 5 coats of that (depending on how thick the coats went on, mostly 3-4 when the sealed surface was perfect), I use some additional brush strokes in difficult areas near neck heel or near fingerboard support.
Here is some old web presence of the product: https://www.ceneo.pl/8297358
Now I found they probably started production of the varnish again but under different brand...
https://www.vidaron.sk/produkty/oleje-a-laky/vonkaj-lak

----------


## soliver

I used epifanes (thinned with lacquer thinner and sprayed with LVLP) on my recently finished first build. I don't have any point of comparison but I am very pleased with how it turned out. On John H's recommendation, I topped the epifanes with Truoil then buffed with Novus 3 then Novus 2. I had a couple of "boogers" here and there, but they worked out in the end.

The only other Spar Varnish experience I have Is brushing on "Man-o-war" varnish on a canoe I made 20+ yrs ago. ... A very different process.

----------


## Istvan

Just curious.  I see where several builders top off the Epifanes with true-oil.  What is the advantage of doing this?  Does it make a easier surface to buff?
Do you let the Epifanes fully cure and sand before applying the True-Oil?

----------


## Mandoborg

I've sprayed  Epifanes pretty much exclusively the last few years on instruments as well as many other projects. Buffed both the straight varnish as well as top coating with tru-oil as well. Both work really well, but one thing that hasn't been discussed too much here is that it turns quite yellow. It takes a couple + years, but I've noticed my ' Blonde' projects turn quite yellow after a while. Works great for repairing vintage bindings etc....but it might be a surprise how yellow your instrument becomes as time goes on. Just a thought to keep in mind...

Stay Healthy, Positive, and Safe

Jim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUGTTuoRPs

----------


## soliver

> Just curious.  I see where several builders top off the Epifanes with true-oil.  What is the advantage of doing this?  Does it make a easier surface to buff?
> Do you let the Epifanes fully cure and sand before applying the True-Oil?


Per John Hamlett, (If I remember correctly) the varnish can end up very thin on the corners and the Tru-oil can help with that. When I sprayed the epiphanies, I would let it dry 24 hrs then sand with 220 grit... I had a bad time with dust infection, but it sanded out well.

----------


## sunburst

> Per John Hamlett, (If I remember correctly) the varnish can end up very thin on the corners and the Tru-oil can help with that. When I sprayed the epiphanies, I would let it dry 24 hrs then sand with 220 grit... I had a bad time with dust infection, but it sanded out well.


I don't have a problem with corners, I don't think I said that.
Mostly the TO is just to speed things up by covering witness lines. The varnish itself will buff out and look fine if we let it cure enough, but if we don't want to wait we can have visible witness lines. Using TO over the varnish lets us proceed faster without witness lines. It also gives a nice "glow" that many of us like.

----------


## soliver

Apologies John for the misquote.... I must've remembered that wrong.

----------


## Bob Schmidt

Thanks so much for this thread. I was assuming I would use nitro for my next finishes since I am familiar with it, but this thread has caused me to reconsider my finishing plans. I really appreciate the amount of knowledge that is shared so freely on this forum.

----------

