# User Support > Forum Software Support >  deletion

## billkilpatrick

how can i delete a message?  i looked but couldn't find a delete button.

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## Mandolin Cafe

Hi, Bill. 

User deleting of posts is not being made available in the new forum. Several reasons for this. Most users never have a need need to do this, and on occasion, someone becomes upset and removes all of their posts, which is not fair to the community. There is also a 3 hr. window on editing your own posts. We realize this may not be received well by some, but it's in the best interests of the community. Simply put, this is a public place, so exercise moderation in posting. Thanks for the question.

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## mandopete

> Simply put, this is a public place, so exercise moderation in posting. Thanks for the question.


Good idea, I will keep that in mind.

 :Smile:

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## mandolirius

Hmm. The ability to edit/delete posts was one of the superior aspects of this forum, imho.

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## danb

You can edit them at first, but there's a time limitation. Once a post is up a few hours and folks have responded to it, it's fixed in place. The problem was that someone would say something controversial, folks would respond, then the original would be modified or deleted leaving a very confusing thread for anyone who wasn't in on it right away.

This way you can still change your mind soon after posting, but you can't go back and delete stuff after a few days have passed. It's more fair to people reading freshly, or to the responders to a post this way.

We can still delete things for you, but generally it'd be done in a way that doesn't confuse thread content for the next reader

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## billkilpatrick

you mean ... i have to think before i post!?!

h'mmmmm ...

reason i asked was i answered the question i posed in the "nitrocellulose lacquer" thread and didn't want it taking up space.  as "head techie" please feel free to whisk it away.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Hmm. The ability to edit/delete posts was one of the superior aspects of this forum, imho.



You can still edit as long as you edit within the first three hours (If I recall). The only people the non-delete function is going to cause problems for are those that were using it for less than honorable purposes. Everyone understands mistakes and if you accidentily double post something it isn't a big deal. If you have a problem with a message you post that needs to be deleted send a PM to the moderators.

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## San Rafael

Mike, I'll work within the new deletion parameters (and thanks as always to owners and moderators for the Cafe resource). But there may have been "honorable" reasons for post deletion in the past.

One is modesty. Some folks who might enjoy an ephemeral exchange just don't like carving their words into cyberspace stone, any more than we would want everything we say out loud during the day to be published forever.

Another is discouragement. Sometimes a thread begins well, but then degenerates into silliness or hostility that a person may not want even a cyber association with.

Again though, I'm happy to play by the new rule. It's just that your "less than honorable" phrase caught my attention.

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## Mandolin Cafe

If there are valid reasons for a post/s needing to be deleted, the moderators are always more than willing to entertain that discussion when within reason, but just allowing all posts to be deleted at a user's discretion is a direction this forum has made the conscious decision to head away from. Again, another good reason for all users to observe the posting guidelines that are in place and to continue to recognize this is a public forum and we all need to act accordingly.

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## MikeEdgerton

> One is modesty. Some folks who might enjoy an ephemeral exchange just don't like carving their words into cyberspace stone, any more than we would want everything we say out loud during the day to be published forever....


If one feels that way they shouldn't post anything. 

By the way, I do understand that there are honorable reasons for deleting and editing posts. Those folks have no problems, just send a message to the moderators. There are situations where it's been used as a really silly method of manipulating the truth. 99.999999999999999% of the cafe members would never do that. We don't live in a perfect world.

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## San Rafael

[QUOTE=MikeEdgerton] "If one feels that way they shouldn't post anything." 

Uh . . . . okay.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Uh . . . . okay.


What that means is that if a person is worried about what they post becomming part of the eternal Internet record they shouldn't post anything anywhere. Even if you were to delete every post you put up after 5 days it can still possibly be found someplace else on the web. Check out www.archive.org and look at the Wayback machine. You can check most of the websites on the web back to a day years ago. Many times people take a piece of information on the web and quote it elsehwere on another unrelated page. Once something is online you lose control of it. It's that simple.

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## delsbrother

I would often go back to posts I made long ago and edit them for factual errors or added information. Though I suppose I could've just made a new post in the thread, I felt it was easier to do it this way than to bring up an old topic.

I must admit I also disliked having an "edited by" tag on a message, especially a short one. So if I found an error in grammar, etc. on a just-posted message I would post a corrected one (creating a double post) and then delete the original.

I've also deleted things that I later regretted posting. While taking this ability away falls into Bill's "think before you post" area, I wonder how much grief it's actually saving.

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## Paul Hostetter

Ditto. I find it irritating that a) you can't delete a post and b) even if you edit it, it has to show that it was edited, reason shown or not. This is a step down from the previous forum software. I prefer simplicity. What the current software does is insure unnecessary clutter.

Not being able to delete a post is definitely NOT "in the best interests of the community." If I could edit a post and not have it show, it wouldn't be so bad. Having a time limit on even that much is also a real blow to clarity and presentation.

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## Paul Hostetter

PS: Another strange quirk of the new software is that you have to go to so much trouble to subscribe to a topic. And that the first of the options of subscribing (once you've found it) is to receive NO email notification. What?? Why would you subscribe and not want to be notified? Why isn't this a simple radio button to check as you post? I think this new software needs work.

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## Chris Biorkman

I generally like the upgrade, but I also find the inability to delete or edit posts to be a little annoying. I guess it just means that you have to choose your words a little more carefully.

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## Eddie Sheehy

Whisch iss fine exxept when yre posting in the middel e of the night after a few bwewrsu.

An exaggeration I know, but not far from the truth....

I think the new site rocks.

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## billkilpatrick

> Whisch iss fine exxept when yre posting in the middel e of the night after a few bwewrsu.
> 
> An exaggeration I know, but not far from the truth....
> 
> I think the new site rocks.


i agree - on the whole i'd say that not being able to delete is a JGT*.  

there were times when someone had deleted-n'-ran and left me with egg on my face and times when, unknown to me, offending posts had been removed and my subsequent posting - sane, rational, genteel ... you know ... - had drawn me into a lunacy that was not of my own making.

horton the elephant's "i said what i meant and i meant what i said ..." is the order of the day now.

- bill

* - jolly good thing ...

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## Patrick Killeen

I agree with the policy.

The problem comes when someone edits or deletes a post that someone else has responded to.  Doing that changes the context for the posts that follow, and with that it can change their meaning (I've read quite a few posts where replies have been rendered meaningless because someone has deleted the original question).  So enabling editing and deleting effectively give people the power to edit other people's posts, you may not be able to change the words they use but you can change the meaning of those words.

As they stand the forums are a record of an online conversation, they're like a recorded chat room.  Yes "clarity and presentation" do suffer, as Paul points out above, but that's the nature of conversations, and some of the "unnecessary clutter" in one post might turn out to necessary to make sense of comments latter on.

Patrick

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## Scott Tichenor

This is cross-posted on a similar thread regarding editing.

You're all welcome to your opinions about how this forum is set up and run, and we'll even provide the place for you to complain in public about it  :Smile: , but we/I stand by this policy.

Not singling anyone out here, but the fact is too many people shoot before thinking, use the forum as a sword with their words and then think it's OK to remove those comments after others have posted. And yes, people do post when under the influence of various products which also results in colorful language one later regrets. I think it can be easy to forget that this is a public forum, and you should act accordingly. Uncontrolled editing and deleting allows those that act outside of the posting guidelines to do so without being held accountable for their own words. If something seriously needs to be edited or removed and is within reason, the moderators are happy to assist. But the days of editing and removal free-for-all are over.

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## JEStanek

As far as subscribing to a thread.  With this forum software, this is how the code was written.  The default to no notifications is good.  I've always used the no notifications and just used the subscriptions to monitor some threads I like that may not get traffic everyday (e.g., Mandolins In Progress, etc.)  Your thread subscription with e-mail notification is 3 clicks. 

Jamie

Edit: If you use the Go Advanced instead of quick reply box for posting to a thread, there is a section below the Post Section called Additional Options where you can set your subscriptions when you compose your message.

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## delsbrother

While I agree editing and deletion can be abused, I just don't see the overall benefit to removing it entirely. Are there really _that_ many threads with deleted posts/dangling replies? Seems like you're thowing the baby out with the bongwater.

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## Ted Eschliman

I think the problem for all the critics of the newly restricted editing abilities is they are victims of the all-too human "since I didn't see it, it wasn't there" syndrome. The scores of threads from the old board that were self-deleted monthly whether in anger, or belated clear thinking are no longer there for you to view as evidence. BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN DELETED!

This is akin to visiting a school cafeteria after the custodian has painstakingly cleaned the mess of routine adolescent foodfights and careless spills, and observing, "these kids must not be much trouble, everything is so clean." All the custodian could do is stare at you dumbfounded. Sure, the majority of kids were not a problem, but that doesn't mean the school doesn't need to hire a janitor.

You're going to have to trust us on this. It was a problem. A HUGE problem, and while inconvenient for the hair-trigger poster, this "new" approach to submitting your carefully digested thoughts will hopefully instill a greater degree of discretion and self-control. It's been mentioned before, "measure twice, cut once." Take some time to think before you post.

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## David Houchens

The tongue is a double edged sword. This is just like talking in person without facial exspessions. Strong worded replies can seem from heart felt to hateful. I along with others will just have to pick our words wisely. I have posted replies that I later realized sounded a little harsh. If I felt this way as soon as I posted, I'd edit. If I felt this way later, I'd add a post with an explanation. I think sometimes it is important that people know how I felt at the time. If you like to drink etc..... and reply, at least your not in a bar where the other guy puts your lights out for what you just said.
I really don't see the problem with the EDITED thing showing. I've had two on a post before and later still saw something spelled wrong. This ain't english class. I just don't spell that well. 
I'm happy to have this forum. Like other things in life I don't have control of, I just play by their rules or I don't play.     David

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## mandocrucian

I don't like it.

My perspective comes from a direction that's probably different from all but a handul of others on the board who are published writers, authors, etc.  (I could list 25 to 40+ different publications since the mid-70's that have  run articles/interviews/reviews/etc of mine, not to mention running my own rag for 11 years.)

To me, not having the option to delete  is the same as signing over all your intellectual property rights. I want the option to remove a post, for whatever reason, whenever I want, and without having to ask permisssion to do it. The "author" should have the right to let some page-long essay/explanation go "out of print".  
NH

(PS: this is one of those posts that I might otherwise decide to delete after a few days. Or, now, within three hours.)

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## mandopete

I guess my jury is still out on this not being able to delete a post.  I think there is a big difference between deletion (regret) and editing (usually spelling).  If anything it does make all of us a little more careful of what we post and that's a good thing I suppose.

I noticed something else - there's a feature that allows you state "why" you edited something.  That's nice too.

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## Patrick Killeen

> I don't like it.
> To me, not having the option to delete  is the same as signing over all your intellectual property rights. I want the option to remove a post, for whatever reason, whenever I want, and without having to ask permisssion to do it. The "author" should have the right to let some page-long essay/explanation go "out of print".  (E.g.: Perhaps the post is a dry-run or rough draft on some topic for possible eventual use in a published instructional manual.)


The analogy between deleting a post and letting a book go out of print is a questionable one.  If an author decides to let a work go out of print that doesn't give them the right to demand that libraries return any copies that they might have on their shelves.  Letting a book go out of print doesn't remove it from circulation it just makes it harder to get hold of, once something has been published it's published for good.  Posting an item to a public forum is like donating a copy of your work to a library (albeit a library that is easily accessible from anywhere in the world).  

Also, when someone asks a question I could answer I read the thread and I'll only post a reply if no one else has already made the points that I would.  So if there's a good answer there already then I usually won't reply.  If that good answer was to be deleted some time latter then that would leave the thread incomplete even though there may be people who would have been willing to answer the question freely, which seems unfair to me.  

Patrick

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## woodwizard

mandopete quote: 
I noticed something else - there's a feature that allows you state "why" you edited something. That's nice too.
*********
I like that too. Most of my editing is for my great spelling ofcourse. I really like everthing better.

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## mandocrucian

> Posting an item to a public forum is like donating a copy of your work to a library (albeit a library that is easily accessible from anywhere in the world).


No it's not. Not if *when you posted*, you had the option of removal. You could say that you were actually _"lending"_ the post/opinion.  That's (see quote) like lending your lawn mower to a neighbor, and because you didn't ask for it back right away, he claims that possession = ownership and/or that you "gave" it to him permanently.

There was a magazine that I did some interviews/writing for, and a number of years later, they sent me some form to sign in which they were claiming all ownership rights - to do whatever they wanted with it ...reprint in collection, online repro - and expected me to assent to that position. There was never any contract in which I relinquished anything except the right to first publication in the particular printed issue it appeared in. And I told them, "I never signed anything, giving up everything.....for no reimbursement"  Magazines that do want that, send their writer a contract _in advance_ of publication, spellling out exactly what they are buying.

But, if anything I may write is to permanently become someone else's property, then that fact will be definitely be weighed in consideration of how much (or detailed), if anything, I want to "donate". And I'll probably think...."_Nah, just to err on the side of caution, I may want to just keep this for myself."_ 

NH

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## Doug Hoople

I'll say it again. 

I really LIKED being able to edit without restriction. 

I didn't care too much about the delete, and would have been happy enough with a delete that left the post in place and left a "deleted by author" message trail, much like the "deleted by moderator for inappropriate content" messages that we'd see from time to time. 

I'll miss being able to edit without restriction. 

I understand and believe that our moderators and hosts have had massive headaches in this category, and understand their enthusiasm for limiting us as a means of retaining their own sanity. 

But I really LIKED being able to edit without restriction. I may be wrong, but I don't think I abused the privilege, and I believe my posts were clearer and more to the point because of my ability to edit them. 

I'm sorry that the abuse of this capability by the few has led to the loss of it for us all. 

And if I REALLY want to "measure twice and cut once," I'll write a book and publish it. The stupidities that ensue from the heat of the moment are part of the message forum experience.

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## cooper4205

You don't have to think twice and cut once -- you have three hours after you post to edit it. That should give someone more than enough time to reflect on whether a post made in the heat of the moment was in good taste or not.

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## Doug Hoople

> You don't have to think twice and cut once -- you have three hours after you post to edit it. That should give someone more than enough time to reflect on whether a post made in the heat of the moment was in good taste or not.


EXCEPT if, upon hitting the Send key, you collapse in an exhausted heap from the effort of firing a "perfect," fast-paced response into a thicket of hot-pursuit cross-posting, and then you wake up 3 hours and 1 minute later drenched in the cold sweat of a nightmare wherein you were handed the reply that you really wanted to write.  :Smile: 

No, really... in all seriousness, three hours is not quite enough to correct after sleeping on it. 

Hmmm... I think I've dwelled on this enough by now. Better let it rest.

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## fishdawg40

I see both sides.  But don't see much of the mess the mods are talking about.  I was on Craigslist today, in the "musicians" section.  People would reply to different ads and what do you know, the original ad was gone.  So I'm lost as to what that person was talking about originally.  Probably better off without that knowledge anyways.  Albeit that's Craigslist, here at the Cafe we're a little more civilized....well most of us are.

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## Patrick Killeen

> No it's not. Not if *when you posted*, you had the option of removal. You could say that you were actually _"lending"_ the post/opinion.


I agree with you. To restate my point more clearly, posting an item to a public forum _in the knowledge that there is no delete facility_is like donating a copy of your work to a library.  My argument was really only aimed at posts added under the new system, whether or not you want all your old posts to remain now that the delete feature has been removed is between you and the moderators.




> But, if anything I may write is to permanently become someone else's property, then that fact will be definitely be weighed in consideration of how much (or detailed), if anything, I want to "donate". And I'll probably think...."_Nah, just to err on the side of caution, I may want to just keep this for myself."_


Which is a valid approach to take.  There are probably a few people on this board who face a similar dilemma when asked to play an unpaid gig.  If they make a living out of playing then they may so "no" on principle because it has the potential to hit their pockets.  Life's a lot simpler for us hobby writers/players.

Patrick

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## Patrick Killeen

> No, really... in all seriousness, three hours is not quite enough to correct after sleeping on it.


If you want to sleep on it before making your final decision your might be better off writing your post in a word processor and sleeping on it *before* you submit it.  That way do don't wake up to find that your credibility has been detroyed because everyone's read your work of "genius" and even if you delete it now they will remeber you for it.  :Crying: 

Patrick

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## MikeEdgerton

Let's reiterate this one more time and perhaps assuage the concerns of those that are so strongly concerned about not being able to edit or delete their own posts. We certainly don't want people to feel they can't post because they might suffer financially. If you feel that your own post is going to cause you any harm, emotionally, financially or whatever, please contact any of the moderators with your concerns and we'll help you out. This isn't being done to harm you. It's being done so that we don't have to have a user delete his or her own posts then berate us for deleting them when we did not. It's being done because we don't want people flaming someone then editing their posts after they got blasted back. Both happened on the old software. It neutralizes those that want to play games. Those that simply have an issue with what they have typed haven't got any problems.

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