# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  What do the dots on the fret board mean?

## jax_realm

I realize the 12 fret dots are for an octave and the rest are for quick recognition, but I'd rather just understand the dots for all they're worth. You have any thoughts or definitions that might make me understand better?

Thanks

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

Other than the 12th fret dots,forget them. They're like fretboard milestones & are simply an indicator of 'where you are'. They can be useful,but if you know the 'intervals' at each fret position ie. E / F/ F# / G etc,you can dispense with them for the most part. Personally, my favourite markers are totally 'not there',
                                                                         Ivan

----------


## Beanzy

12th fret = 1/2 length harmonic. (at fret above the marker) 
5th fret = 1/3 length harmonic
3rd fret = 1/4 length harmonic.

Other than those they can be very useful when jumping about for position shifts. 
I often use the 10th fret one as a guide for landing (though the shifts I chose tend to land me either side of it). 
Then again I still need breathing apparatus if I'm up in 6th position so I'm sure many good players don't need safety nets.

----------

David Watson, 

Mark Gunter, 

OneChordTrick

----------


## MikeEdgerton

If your fretboard was a map they'd be the street signs so you'd know where you were. I don't need the dots on the fretboard, I can't see them when I'm playing but the corresponding side dots on the neck, those I need. Don't read more into them than you need to.

----------

Denny Gies, 

farmerjones, 

Jess L., 

Mark Gunter

----------


## AlanN

The only time I use dots is to count the number of frets on a fingerboard. The pair at the 12th fret, 3 up to 15. Never use the side dots in my playing.

The Wayne Benson Gibson model does away with any on-the-fret dots (there may be side dots). I always liked that look. I think his siganture is on fret 12 or maybe 15.

----------


## John Flynn

Then there is the mystery of why guitars have dots on the 9th fret and mandolins on the 10th. I know lots of people think they have the definitive answer to that, but previous threads indicate the "definitive answers" don't all agree.

I only use side dots for playing, but there is a real purpose for the fretboard dots if you are giving lessons or taking them. It is somewhat easier for an instructor/student pairing to see what each other are doing if they both have dots. I'm not saying it's necessary, just helpful. I think with online lessons, it's even more helpful due to camera resolution.

----------


## JeffD

I am totally addicted to the dots. Especially up the neck and especially especially when I am reading music up the neck.

The fourth and the fifth are intervals very important to western music, and so the dots on the fifth and seventh fret. The tenth and 12 fret are my fourth and fifth intervals when starting on the fifth fret (i.e. playing in third position). The tenth fret dot on the next string is my octave in third position.

When I play closed form moveable patterns I don't always pay close attention to what key I am in. I use my relative position to the dots as a guide. So if I am a fret below the dot at the fifth, then my octave (for example) is a fret below my dot at the tenth fret a string up.

The dots are my way points. Whether they are on the side of the neck or on the fret board itself I don't care. I prefer both actually, but a mandolin with no fret markers at all is very disorienting for me to play.


That said, I have no real comments on what you should do. As you can see different people approach the landscape differently. What works for me may not be best for you. 

I find the dots gigantically helpful, and I would hope folks would at least consider if using them may provide advantage.

----------

David Watson, 

Iron, 

Mark Gunter, 

Misty Stanley-Jones, 

Nick Gellie

----------


## JeffD

A ninth fret dot instead of a tenth fret dot, on a mandolin or something tuned in fifths, drives me nuts. Some say its just what one gets used to, but I say that the tenth fret dot provides so many useful symmetries relevant to being tuned in fifths I cannot believe its placement is arbitrary.

----------

David Watson, 

GrooverMcTube

----------


## Tobin

Yup, there are all kinds of patterns and ways to use the markers.  Whether they were put there intentionally for this purpose or not, they are still very useful.  You can find many different ways to reference them for chord shapes, scales, or other movable patterns.  If you never get out of first position, they may not mean much, but I couldn't live without them when playing above the 7th fret, especially when doing a lot of shifting and moving around.  Without my hand in a fixed position as an 'anchor' for reference (like it would be when fixed in first position), I can't tell which fret I'm on just by feel.  I have to use the markers as references.  

I'm sure if I played for a couple of years blindfolded to eliminate the visual reference as a crutch, I could get past it, but I don't feel the need to do that.  I really do respect violin players and other musicians who play fretless instruments with no markers whatsoever.  How they can jump way up the neck and hit exactly the right pitch is simply amazing.

----------

David Watson, 

Iron, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## belbein

> I cannot believe its placement is arbitrary.


Of course it's not arbitrary.  It's to discourage the heathens (guitar players and banjo players) from soiling holy ground.

----------

Blues Harp Tom, 

Iron, 

Steve VandeWater

----------


## JeffD

> Of course it's not arbitrary.  It's to discourage the heathens (guitar players and banjo players) from soiling holy ground.


 :Laughing:

----------


## Canoedad

I don't know any of the names of the notes on the fretboard.   Sad but true.   Last night I decided to take a look and maybe start to learn the notes.   I pulled out the Fretboard Toolbox for Mandolin.  It says the easiest way to learn where the the C,D,E,G and A notes are first (because every other note is one step away from them, or something).  

Anyway when I looked to find the C,D,E,G and A notes I realized that on the A string, C, D, E, G and A fall on the 3, 5, 7, 10 and 12 frets, which just so happen to have Dots.

----------


## John Flynn

You could always get a copy of the Roy Clark "Big Note" Songbook and adapt the stickers for mandolin!

----------


## bratsche

> I really do respect violin players and other musicians who play fretless instruments with no markers whatsoever.  How they can jump way up the neck and hit exactly the right pitch is simply amazing.


When you think about it, though, if violins had markers, how could we even see them when we're in playing position?  They'd be as useless as... insert your favorite metaphor (or is it simile?) here.  So there's no other option - we have to use muscle memory alone to "jump way up the neck and hit exactly the right pitch".

On fretted instruments, I find the side octave marker the only one to be useful.  Since I shift around frequently between instruments that have different scales, that one helps me get oriented to the instrument I'm on at the moment.  The others I find distracting.

bratsche

----------

farmerjones

----------


## mandocrucian

> 12th fret = 1/2 length harmonic. (at fret above the marker) 
>  5th fret = 1/3 length harmonic
>  3rd fret = 1/4 length harmonic.


7th fret = 1/3 length harmonic
5th fret = 1/4 length harmonic

----------

David L, 

DavidKOS, 

Drew Barton, 

GrooverMcTube, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## Beanzy

> 7th fret = 1/3 length harmonic
> 5th fret = 1/4 length harmonic


Oops.... thanks for pointing it out.
 :Redface:  especially embarassing as I'd only posted the correct one about a week ago and have been using it for a piece today.

My only excuse is I tend to think of the third fret one as redundant.


While on harmonics does anyone consistently manage to get a useful harmonic out of any others? 
Is it worth trying or do you have to be rediculously good to manage it?

----------


## Maczart

Traditional Classical guitars almost never have markers on the fretboard and very rarely have edge markers. The 12th fret is always located where the neck meets the body. That's the only reference point and the rest is just muscle memory and knowing where the notes lie on the fretboard. I used to paint a small dot on the edge of the fretboard at the 5th fret on my guitars just as a quick reference landmark (which I probably used a lot subconsciously).

Maczart

----------

David Watson, 

DavidKOS

----------


## jax_realm

Lol divided room, I appreciate all the input. Good stuff to think about

----------


## JeffD

Yes of course its a divided room. But you know, doing it one way doesn't prevent you from doing it the other way. Certainly worth trying both ways and see what works. Or adopt both. I know with some playing I pay much more attention to the dots than with other, where I ignore them. So ... its all good.

----------


## AaronVW

What dots?

----------


## Cue Zephyr

> 3rd fret = 1/4 length harmonic.


That's not entirely true. I mean yes, it is around the 3rd fret, but it's actually _slightly_ above that 3rd fret.

I have to practice hitting that one to get it. The shorter that division gets, the harder those harmonics are to hit.

----------


## GreenMTBoy

I have a Gypsy Jazz guitar and it has a dot on the 10 th fret and have always liked it as my reference for the D note , makes more sense to me then having it on the 9th  D flat

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## ralph johansson

> That's not entirely true. I mean yes, it is around the 3rd fret, but it's actually _slightly_ above that 3rd fret.
> 
> I have to practice hitting that one to get it. The shorter that division gets, the harder those harmonics are to hit.



That's the 1/6 length harmonic, two octaves plus a fifth. Read Niles' post again.
The 1/5 is close to the fourth fret.

----------


## John Flynn

> What dots?


That's great! That mandolin must date back to ancient Rome!

----------


## James Rankine

Another what dots pic. Come to think of it what is an oval hole?

----------


## Bertram Henze

Suggestion: make your own fretboard out of glued-together domino pieces. Then you'll know what the dots are for.  :Cool:

----------


## Cue Zephyr

> That's the 1/6 length harmonic, two octaves plus a fifth. Read Niles' post again.
> The 1/5 is close to the fourth fret.


That's not quite what I meant. There indeed is one right around the 4th fret. The 3rd fret one is like somewhere around the 3.2nd fret if it existed.

----------


## ralph johansson

My comment was only about that harmonic being the 1/4; it's the 1/6. You're correct about its location.

Here is the math. The frequence relation of a tempered halfstep is r= 12th root of 2, approximately equal to
1.0595. To get that  of a minor third (third fret) we raise that to the third power, giving 1.1892. To get the free portion of the string
we invert this, to get the location of the third fret we subtract that result from the whole, resulting in  1-1/(r**3)= 0.1591 which is cleary less than 1/6=0.1667.

Similar calculations for the 1/3, 1/4, and 1/5 length harmonics confirm that these are very close to the 7th, 5th and 4th frets respectively, that the tempered major third and fourth are higher than their harmonic counterparts and the tempered fifth lower.

----------


## JEStanek

It's braille for Drink More Ovaltine.  (not really).  For me, they just help me know what fret is what.  I can deal with a board without dots so long as the neck has them, i don't like inlay all up and down the board... it is too busy for my glances to be useful.

Jamie

----------

Mandobart

----------


## Dr H

> Then there is the mystery of why guitars have dots on the 9th fret and mandolins on the 10th. I know lots of people think they have the definitive answer to that, but previous threads indicate the "definitive answers" don't all agree.
> 
> I only use side dots for playing, but there is a real purpose for the fretboard dots if you are giving lessons or taking them. It is somewhat easier for an instructor/student pairing to see what each other are doing if they both have dots. I'm not saying it's necessary, just helpful. I think with online lessons, it's even more helpful due to camera resolution.


My guess is that the dots evolved centuries ago as just a simplified version of the often elaborate fretboard ornamentation which appeared on lutes, vihuelas, and later guitars, mandlins, and banjos.  Some luthier(s) figured that they might as well locate them in harmonically useful places, and cultural inertia took care of the rest.

BTW, other than 5, 7, and 12, the location of these dots can be pretty variable.  I have guitars that have a 9th fret dot, and others that have a 10th fret dot.  Some have dots on 1 and 3, others not.  I have a fretless guitar that has dots where 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, and 12th  frets would be.  I have a classical guitar with a single dot at the 12th.

If I were building an instrument I'd put dots at 2, 6, 11, and 16, just to be perverse.  :Smile:

----------


## JeffD

Except for tenor guitars, I have never seen a guitar with a tenth fret dot. I suppose they are out there.

Dr H your perverse idea would be my worst nightmare.  :Smile:   As bad as retuning the thing in fourths just before a performance.

----------


## James Miller

> I don't know any of the names of the notes on the fretboard.   Sad but true.   Last night I decided to take a look and maybe start to learn the notes.   I pulled out the Fretboard Toolbox for Mandolin.  It says the easiest way to learn where the the C,D,E,G and A notes are first (because every other note is one step away from them, or something).  
> 
> Anyway when I looked to find the C,D,E,G and A notes I realized that on the A string, C, D, E, G and A fall on the 3, 5, 7, 10 and 12 frets, which just so happen to have Dots.


Was looking at my Rogue and it has markers on the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 10th, Double on 12th, 15, & 17th frets.

So when looking at mandolins I was considering to upgrade to, none had the 3rd fret marker. What got me was these are _supposedly_ the Beginner Models ($400 range) and they are leaving out the 3rd fret marker?!? Seems rather stupid since most beginner players use two-fingered chords to start from - and I personally like the reference point.
Looked at the neck markers and again there were no markers for the 3rd fret on many of the Kentucky & Eastman models. However lower end Fenders have all the markers. Rogue, the $45 mandolin has only markers on the fretboard, nothing on the neck. Something is amiss there.

Then happened to look at other makers of both medium and higher end and they have them on theirs. Weber for one has all the markers on fretboard and neck ... it is that I cannot afford a Weber so looking for reasonable (?) alternatives.

So, if I was to upgrade to something in the range I was hoping for I'd have to somehow mark the 3rd fret on the neck at least to give me a reference point *until* I learned to not need it.

Which reminded me of when I was trying to play a rather long & large octave mandolin, it had like 5 or 6 blank frets and I was confused as where to start from as a reference. 


And like someone else pointed out, the fretboard dots helps others who play with guitar players (and don't know how to play one) to be able to _read_ what chord they are playing. And when learning from an instructor they can see where you are, you can see where they are.

----------


## Phil Goodson

Has anybody said that the markers at frets 3,5,7,10,12,15 show frets where all the notes across the strings are naturals (no sharps or flats, EXCEPT  for the lonely Bb on fret 3). This is in standard tuning, of course.
 So it gives you a landing spot (or a place to veer away from if you're heading for a sharp or flat.) :Smile: 

I didn't say that all naturals were only on those frets. :Wink:

----------


## edandjudy3946

google the video Wayne Benson pentatonic scales. He describes the dot markers as pentatonic.

----------


## Mandobart

My Regal resonator had no marks on the side of the fretboard binding. I did find it more difficult to navigate without them, so I added them with a 1/8" drill bit and a sharpie.

----------


## zedmando

> I often use the 10th fret one as a guide for landing (though the shifts I chose tend to land me either side of it).


Having played guitar & bass for so many years with a marker at the 9th fret & not the 10th--that still messes me up sometimes when playign mandolin.

Sometimes...

----------


## Mandoplumb

> My comment was only about that harmonic being the 1/4; it's the 1/6. You're correct about its location.Here is the math. The frequence relation of a tempered halfstep is r= 12th root of 2, approximately equal to
> 1.0595. To get that  of a minor third (third fret) we raise that to the third power, giving 1.1892. To get the free portion of the string
> we invert this, to get the location of the third fret we subtract that result from the whole, resulting in  1-1/(r**3)= 0.1591 which is cleary less than 1/6=0.1667.
> Similar calculations for the 1/3, 1/4, and 1/5 length harmonics confirm that these are very close to the 7th, 5th and 4th frets respectively, that the tempered major third and fourth are higher than their harmonic counterparts and the tempered fifth lower.


I just note the fret that sounds right.

----------

FLATROCK HILL

----------


## pops1

In instruments without side dots I add them with a piece of masking tape with a hole punched in it the size of the dot I want. Center the tape on the binding or fingerboard where you want it and put a dot of fingernail polish on the tape where the hole is. Peel off the tape before the polish is dry, but not right away and you will have a nice dot. Use whatever color you choose, I usually use white or black, it will peel off easily when you want to go back to original, but will stay on indefinitely should you choose to leave it on. I have some on that have been there for decades.

----------

James Miller

----------


## Morgan76

Isn't it all the frets where the notes across the strings correspond to the stages of the Circle of Fifths?

So it goes:

Open Strings = G D A E

5th fret = C G D A (ie each note is the octave above the open string below it)

7th fret = D A E B (each note is the same note as the open string above it)

10th fret = F C G D

12th fret = G D A E (octave above the open string)

15th fret = B flat F C G

The reason why they're useful as roadmaps is because you can always figure out what note you're on by relating it to the strings around it.

----------


## Phil Goodson

No.  All the frets NOT marked also correspond to elements of the circle of fifths, since the circle applies to all 12 notes in the chromatic scale.

Markers just mark where all the notes are "non-sharps/flats" (discounting things like Fb, E# and such).  But this is just my theory. :Smile:

----------

sblock

----------


## Bertram Henze

I'd like fret markers that look exactly like frets, just to confuse other players.

----------

Phil Goodson

----------


## farmerjones

I though I've seen fret markers in different locations from one mandolin to the next? 
This may have been on guitars or banjers too. (senior brain) 
If that be the case, they are essentially decoration. But there always tends to be something at the half-way point of the string length. That way if your bridge floats, one can place it where it needs to be.

----------


## Miltown

A dot on the third fret means: this is the third fret. A dot on the fifth fret means: this is the fifth fret. And so on.

On that I think we can all agree. Or at least I hope.  :Smile:

----------

James Miller, 

OneChordTrick, 

Phil Goodson

----------


## JeffD

It is the fixed position of the dots that makes capo playing confusing for me. Playing with a capo you just gotta ignore the dots I suppose. 

I always wondered how banjo players managed that.

----------


## Mark Gunter

Gets hard for me to transpose in my mind when guitarists capo too far up. Without the dots on their guitars to help me see what fret the capo is on, though, I'd really have trouble.

----------


## OneChordTrick

> A dot on the third fret means: this is the third fret. A dot on the fifth fret means: this is the fifth fret. And so on.
> 
> On that I think we can all agree. Or at least I hope.


That makes it clear  :Smile:

----------


## Kevin Stueve

> That makes it clear


unless of course your mandolin has a zero fret in which case the 3rd fret is actually the 4th fret and the 5th fret is ....   well you get my drift

----------

OneChordTrick

----------


## John Kelly

> unless of course your mandolin has a zero fret in which case the 3rd fret is actually the 4th fret and the 5th fret is ....   well you get my drift


And of course the dots are BETWEEN the frets, so maybe it's 2, 4, 6, 9, etc?   :Laughing:

----------

Kevin Stueve, 

OneChordTrick

----------


## A 4

> In instruments without side dots I add them with a piece of masking tape with a hole punched in it the size of the dot I want. Center the tape on the binding or fingerboard where you want it and put a dot of fingernail polish...


That is a much better idea than what I have done, which is use a Sharpie marker.  Which doesn't last that well, actually.

----------


## A 4

I remember spending some time thinking about it, and eventually realized that all the frets with dots corresponded to notes with sharps or flats on any string, which I think is pretty good criteria for a dot.  That means, though, no dot for the third fret.  

I also think the fingerboard dots are often too big relative to the size of the mandolin fingerboard - why so large?  Side dots always seem to be the perfect size for a side dot.

----------


## Phil Goodson

> I remember spending some time thinking about it, and eventually realized that all the frets with dots corresponded to notes *with* sharps or flats on any string, which I think is pretty good criteria for a dot.  That means, though, no dot for the third fret.  
> 
> I also think the fingerboard dots are often too big relative to the size of the mandolin fingerboard - why so large?  Side dots always seem to be the perfect size for a side dot.


I think you mean WITHOUT.  Which is what I said earlier (Post #40).

----------


## stevedenver

> Of course it's not arbitrary.  It's to discourage the heathens (guitar players and banjo players) from soiling holy ground.


well, its been a zombie thread, 
but belbein old boy, banjos have the same dot layout as mandolins.

maroon, your favorite color perhaps? :Cow:

----------


## A 4

> I think you mean WITHOUT.  Which is what I said earlier (Post #40).


Yes to both of those things!

----------


## Kevin Stueve

> No.  All the frets NOT marked also correspond to elements of the circle of fifths, since the circle applies to all 12 notes in the chromatic scale.
> 
> Markers just mark where all the notes are "non-sharps/flats" (discounting things like Fb, E# and such).  But this is just my theory.


Hmmm My mandolin has a dot at the 3rd fret and 15th fret which have a Bb  ne c'est pas?

----------


## Phil Goodson

> Hmmm My mandolin has a dot at the 3rd fret and 15th fret which have a Bb  ne c'est pas?


Yeah.   They mark all the notes without sharps/flats, ......  and then sometimes a few others too. :Grin: 

It's just to keep you thinking.  Free mental health treatment. :Wink:

----------

Kevin Stueve

----------


## ralph johansson

The fret markers on frets 3, 5, and 7 correspond to 2nd-4th positions on violin. After these it seems that violinists recognize a fifth position starting from th 9th fret, but also a 6th position starting from the 10th fret. If I play in 3rd position it's usually in keys where the scale notes fall on frets 5-10, and in 4th position on frets 7-12, so the 10th fret and 12th fret dots certainly aid orientation on the fretboard. 

One of my mandolins for some reason had a 10th fret side dote (the ony fret marker ON the fretboard was the octave) so I had to have that moved. At the same time the repairperson installed a double side dot at the octave.

----------


## MikeZito

I always wanted to put some dashes next to the dots on a guitar and tell people it was some sort of secret Morse Code . . . . .

----------


## Toni Schula

My Airline Mandola has dots at frets 3, 5, 7 - which is normal. A dot at 10, that's o.k., 9 would also be acceptable. Then it has the almost mandatory double dot at 12.
So far everything is o.k. 
The rest is also o.k. as it does not impact playability. But I do not understand why it has dots at 14 and 16 instead of 15 and 17?
By the way I did not even recognise this before reading this thread ;-)

----------


## David L

> My Airline Mandola has dots at frets 3, 5, 7 - which is normal. A dot at 10, that's o.k., 9 would also be acceptable. Then it has the almost mandatory double dot at 12.
> So far everything is o.k. 
> The rest is also o.k. as it does not impact playability. But I do not understand why it has dots at 14 and 16 instead of 15 and 17?
> By the way I did not even recognise this before reading this thread ;-)


How odd. Online pictures show one at the 15, not 14. But one picture has a 9 instead of 10!

----------


## JeffD

Fylde mandolins have a dot at nine instead of ten. Were I to get one (and there are more than a couple I have been interested in), I would get that changed right away.

Three is nice, but 5, 7, 10, 12, and 15 are the ones I most rely on.

----------

