# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  Tube Amp

## Ed Fowler

Hi there,

Lately, I've been thinking about picking up a small tube amp (something around 10 watts). So, I thought I'd get some ideas from everybody. What have you used? What worked? How do they work with the freq range of the mando, seeing as it's at the top end of what a guitar would be?

Thanks, looking forward to your input.

Ed

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## rico mando

i love my tube amp!  it is a 30 watt with twin 12in speakers and i have no disappointment in the sound. but 10 watts is plenty and probably lighter to carry .I think you will be completely happy with a tube amp purchase and as far as what to get , that depends on a lot of trail and error until you find what you like best.

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## Rob Beck

Hi Ed

I use an old Vox AC50 that had been living in my loft for about 15 years.  My band and I gig this amp with my mandolin quite frequently, and it has always been fine!

Rob

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## Chip Booth

Will you use it with a solid body electric mandolin or an acoustic mandolin with a pickup?  A good tube amp can sound great and very appropriate for a solid body electric but you will likely be less than thrilled with an acoustic instrument through a guitar amp.  If that is the case I would look at the various electric/acoustic amps marketed towards the plugged in acoustic guitarist.

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## donnall

The Vox VT15 is a great little amp, MF price is only about $129. I have a bunch of amps of various sizes/brands
and it' my favorite little carry around and jam amp. Check out the reviews for more info.
Don

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## Jim Hilburn

The Fender Super Champ XD is an unbelievable little 15w tube amp with a 10' speaker. and you can get them new all day long for $300. Made in China to get the price point but it's really amazing sounding. Just straight in to the clean channel has all the Fender vibe you expect only at living room level. 
Then the real fun begins with the modelling section. A friend got an early Line 6 and we could never get it to sound any good but this one has about 4 settings that are unbelievable. setting 1 is supposed to sound like a tweed deluxe and I had a great one once. This doesn't sound like that to me but it sounds like you have a good compressor plugged in.
 Setting 2 is supposed to sound like a cranked tweed and I'm not sure if it does but this is a very useful overdrive setting. With the gain and volume controls you can get light break-up to pretty crunchy and it's all very convincing. Sounds great.
 Setting 3. Don't get me started. This is Santana magic. Gobs of saturated overdrive. Hit it with a humbucker and it will feed back into harmonics but still at living room sound levels. 
The next few settings are Deluxe Reverb settings and to me it just sounds better in the clean channel. The AC-30 setting is disapointing because you can't get it clean enough. But setting 8... Clapton land. Sounds like every classic rock tune you ever heard. I don't like any of the rest of them.
 The effects are equally great...at least some of them. I thought digital reverb could do everything except one thing, a decent spring reverb. But this is totally acceptable. There's a surf setting but the regular setting turned all the way up sounds better to me. Some fun delays but with the slap turned to 10  your riding the Mystery Train. The choruses all suck. 
 BUT, I use this with an acoustic band and can play totally within the volume restraints and still get great sound. The overdrives and effects are just fun. Check out some of the demo's on Youtube of this one. You'll say like I did "a $300 amp can't sound like that" But it can.

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## Jim Hilburn

I lost my mind and forgot we're talking about mandolins, not Tele's. The Fender has an acoustic setting but I've never used it.
I would think one of the acoustic specific amps or maybe a Roland cube would work best, even though they're solid state.

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## mandofarmdog

A good tube amp sounds good with most anything.  If you find a Class A tube amp, it will be loud.  I have a Gibson GA15RV -- 15 watts, but super loud.  Even my Epiphone Valve Junior Head is loud and it's just 5 watts of Class A power.  The Epiphone only set me back 99 bucks!

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## mtucker

don't know what you want it for but probably better off with a solid state .. phil jones makes some cool stuff, like a really small acoustic .. cub 100, i think. Around 10 pounds an about the size of an auditor's bag! Not cheap but high quality.http://www.philjonespuresound.com/products/?id=13 click on video.

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## mandroid

Solid state you can turn it off and pack up and leave, Tube amp you have to turn it off, 
then let it cool [so  hot filament in tube wont break]   for a while, maybe a pint's worth of time..

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## foldedpath

Ed, the reason you're getting conflicting advice on tube vs. solid state, is that we need more info on what type of mandolin you have (electric/solid body vs. hollow acoustic with a pickup or mic), and what type of music you play.

All the tube amps on the market (with one very expensive exception: Rivera Sedona) are designed for electric guitars, with speakers voiced to emphasize the mids and lows, and roll off the highs. That can sound great for some styles of music like rock, blues, and jazz, especially with a solidbody instrument. With a hollow body mandolin, you'll lose some of the distinctive "acoustic" tone due to the lack of high frequency response in the amp, but sometimes that's desirable in those music styles. A small tube amp like a Fender Champ or Blues Junior would be good for this.

If you're thinking of using some amp distortion, keep in mind that this can trigger feedback fairly quickly in an hollow-body acoustic mandolin. It works much better with a solidbody instrument. 

If you want to preserve the acoustic tone of a traditional hollow-body mandolin, a solid-state amp with a 2-way speaker system is a better solution. In the small size category, I'm a big fan of the AER Alpha amp, or the AER Compact 60 if you need more power... but that little Alpha is a sweet amp.

One more thing.... if you want to add a little clean tube tone enhancement while keeping an essentially acoustic sound with a traditional hollow-body mandolin, you can run the pickup signal through a high-voltage tube DI, and then into acoustic amp or PA system. I've used the Groove Tubes "Brick" tube DI for this, but it seems like it's out of production. You might be able to find one used. Other tube DI's are available like the A Designs REDDI and the Summit Audio TD-100. Some people do this with the much less expenslive, low-voltage ART TubeMP, but it's not as effective in getting the most out of the clean tube + transformer sound as the more expensive tube DI's.

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## Ed Fowler

Thanks for the info so far. 

I started with a straight up acoustic set-up: Acoustic mando, LR Baggs radius through LR Baggs preamp into acoustic guitar amp. 

Then I moved into a pedal board with an overdrive that I use to boost the sound when I was taking a solo or playing some slide mando with a blues band. 

That's when I thought to try a tube amp; to bring in that tube overdrive sound to the slide work instead of a solid-state pedal. I would probably mic the smaller amp into the PA instead of running a larger tube amp with a line out. I'm not keen on lugging large amps onstage. Trying to keep it small and simple.

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## Rob Gerety

I wonder if the Sarno Black Box might be worth considering?

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## mandroid

I'm OK with an  un-tube Roland AC60, for my acoustic , Schertler pickup into the mic channel,
and magnetic coil pickup in the other channnel, I have a CGDA 4 string  that I alternate with.

FWIW, a pedal board works as an effects loop so it takes the balanced  mic input, and pre ,
then it sends the mono out , and has a stereo return.

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## Jim Hilburn

Ed, watch Don Anderson go through the Super Champ model settings on Youtube. You can hear that it will do every kind of overdrive you can imagine and it's totally natural sounding, not like a cheesy effect. With the footswitch you can go from clean to overdriven.

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## Gwernen

If you've ever heard a hand made 1 watt amp, they kick serious. They are just born to overdrive when you'd got a mind to do it. Zappa and several others used tiny wattage amps for recording lps, they really are all you could want. I've got a Fender Princeton Chorus but I'd trade for one of these little gems. 

www.guytronix.com 

check these out, and check out the sound clips. Also check out the various speakers available, I dig the blues oriented version.

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## Narayan Kersak

I used to have a great suped up Fender Blues Junior that was a 15 watt amp.

You can listen to a mandolin playing through it here.

http://ashevillemandolin.wordpress.c...ndolin-review/

I was more into rocking with it, but it had a great clean tone, when needed.  My guitar tech rewired it to run cooler and replaced the stock tubes with some great Mullard style tubes.

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## pops1

I have tried a lot of amps, until recently a Trace Elliot was my preferred amp. Then i plugged into a tube amp i custom built for harmonica. An acoustic mandolin thru a Baggs para DI into the tube amp with an 8" speaker sounds more acoustic than any transistor amp i have tried. I feel an 8" speaker sounds warmer than most speakers out there. The amp is built to not have a lot of highs to warm the harmonica and it also warms the mandolin. Sounds really GREAT!!!

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## Ben Milne

I play through a Blackstar HT-5s (5w ministack.)  and I love it.  enough EQ and tone control  and i like the fuller bottom end that comes from having 2x10" drivers. 
 Blackstar also do some HT series amps with higher wattage (HT-venue) in combo form.

I'd also recommend a Fender blues Jr.  awesome little amp, and small enough to lug around.

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## ShaneJ

> If you've ever heard a hand made 1 watt amp, they kick serious. They are just born to overdrive when you'd got a mind to do it. Zappa and several others used tiny wattage amps for recording lps, they really are all you could want. I've got a Fender Princeton Chorus but I'd trade for one of these little gems. 
> 
> www.guytronix.com 
> 
> check these out, and check out the sound clips. Also check out the various speakers available, I dig the blues oriented version.



I had a 2-watt version of this amp once.  Actually, it would switch between 2 watts and 1/2 watt, depending on the tube you put in it.  It was an AWESOME little head.  Great for recording or use around the house.  I sold it along with my Tele in order to buy a mandolin, but I wish I had kept the amp.

I now have a Fender Vibro-Champ XD that is a 5-watt version of the 15 watt Super Champ that Jim mentioned.  I love the Vibro Champ.  It's like an old Champ with all the added amp modeling tones and extra effects, and it's only $199.  http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/p...Amp?sku=483069 

Reverb is nice.  It's not a real spring reverb, but it sounds very close.  The chorus, like Jim said, is cheesy, but if you set it on the least amount of chorus and tone it down a little, it isn't bad.

The other thing I like about it is that the speaker isn't hard-wired to the amp.  It plugs into a 1/4" jack on the back, so you can unplug the built-in speaker.  Then you can plug into the Line Out jack and run it into another cab or PA or computer interface for recording or whatever.  I like to plug my acoustic guitar into the amp on the #2 setting with some reverb added, and then run that out to my Fishman Solo Amp.  The tubes really liven up the sound - MUCH better than any solid state setup you can plug into.  There is nothing that sound as good as a good tube amp.  I run voice mics through tube preamps and every instrument through either a tube amp or a tube pre amp.  Tubes are just necessities, IMO.

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## Denman John

I recently picked up a Fender Blues Junior ~ 15W tube amp and couldn't be happier.  It was the best sounding amp I tried within my price range, and even better than the Genz Benz Shen. that I tried that was more expensive.  It was rated at 60W, but didn't nearly have the volume or tone that the Blues Junior had.  It's a pretty straight forward amp without many features, but it sounds great.  I just picked up an analog delay pedal that really ads nicely to the acoustic mandolin sound.  I'll probably pick up a chorus pedal as well in the near future.  

Hope this helps

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## Jim Hilburn

After getting the Super Champ I actually sold my '65 Deluxe Reverb, the last of my vintage stash. It was just too loud for anything I do and the Super Champ is much more useful for what I need. But I can still go hear the DR anytime Haldon Wofford is playing nearby.
I wouldn't mind having a Blues Junior too but they seem to shine when they're played wide open.

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## TonyP

wow, talk about bring back memories....I had blacktop Deluxe that had to be from the 60's. Sold it with the 67 Goldtop Les Paul for what I paid for them, $450 back in the 80's. Guess they are worth some bux now, eh? I also had an old blacktop Champ my roomate, who was a tech, turned the vibrato ch. into an over drive. He had the schematic for the pre on a Marshal amp, and that's how he wired that channel. That amp would just howl! Sold it to the resident guitar wizard who went pro. I heard he still had that amp. Glad I'm over that phase  :Smile:

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## CelticDude

I am using a Vox AC4TV combo for a Jonathan Mann electric mando.  It's 4 watss, and even has an attenuator to go down to 1 or 1/4 watts. The sound is great.  However, it does hum, and this seems to be endemic to the amp.

I don't like the sound of an acoustic/electric thru it, so if that's what you're using, you may not either.  Obviously, the thing to do is take your mando to your local guitar mart and try as many as you can.

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## Ed Fowler

Thanks everyone for the info. I appreciate all the different ideas. I guess I'll have to try a few and see if the sound is what I've got in mind.

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## Ed Goist

Bumping this thread looking for comments about, and suggestions for, a small combo tube amp for my JBovier EMC-4 four string, solid-body e-mando. I play Rock and Blues on it.

I've been playing through a Line 6 Spider III 75 solid state emulator, and I thought everything sounded great, until I recently played through a friend's 50W Marshall tube amp. The difference was remarkable! Universally warmer and fatter. Interestingly; the difference between the Marshall & the Line 6 was much more significant on the e-mando than on our guitars. Weird?

Anyways, I am now watching Craigs & ebay for a small combo tube amp. Any comments, pros/cons, etc. about these:

Marshall 50 tube amp
Carvin Nomad
Hughes & Kettner Edition Tube amp
Fender Blues Jr
Fender Super Champ XD
Peavey Classic 30
Crate v1512
Traynor YCV20
Kustom Defender V15
Vox AC15

Any others I should keep my eyes open for?

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## Ben Milne

Sure is nothing like the real thing, Ed.


Fender blues jr,  or see if you can find some Blackstar  to try.

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## Tom Wright

The Fender Hot Rod Deluxe is a reliable performer, not too big but a solid 40W in a generous cabinet, and at a decent price. Meaty tone. Lots of pros use them, I had one, but decided to go lightweight with solid state.

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## CelticDude

I suggest taking your mando to the local guitar superstore and start plugging into amps.  It's the best way I know to find an amp you like, and it's worth the price of admission just for the comments on your instrument.  I did this with my Jon Mann electric octave, and after a few trips to different stores, I've ended up with a Vox Night Train and a Fender Blues Jr.  Both are 15 watts, and have sounds that are different enough to justify both, at least in my mind.  (The perfect amp is really 2 or 3 amps; just have to convince my wife of this...)

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## Big Joe

Amps are just like mandolins or guitars.  You can settle for a Chinese made mediocre amp distributed by the big names, or get a true boutique amp hand made in the USA.  The difference is night and day.  Factory made amps are at best mediocre in the performance.  They can be loud, but they are also noisy.  If you expect to get optimal tone you have to play it loud and then you induce noise that can be quite irritating.  You may not be hearing the noise while you play, but you will when you stop.  In addition, the sound is pretty generic.  It may seem good until you hear a really good amp.  Hand made amps by reputable builders are the best choice for the same reason a hand made mandolin by a top luthier is the best choice if you can afford it.  In addition, most custom amp builders will stand behind their product.

I have a Goodsell 10 watt tube amp that just kicks.  I also have a 33 watt that I use when I play out.  You can google Goodsell amps and check out his selection.  They are not cheap, but they are extremely good amps and will give the full tone and presence even at low volumes.  When you play an amp of this quality you will understand why boutique amps are just as important as boutique guitar or mandolins.  They are not for everyone, but if you play a great instrument you need to have a great amp to match it to.  

Another amp to check out is Samamp.  That is also an excellent small combo with great tone and performance.

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## rico mando

for my 5 string emando i really enjoy my mesa boogie 5:25 express 1x10 but there are many great amp choices out there .

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## Ed Goist

We have a small, local, boutique music shop in town, and the owner carries and speaks very highly of Blackheart all-tube amps.
I hadn't heard of them before, but was very impressed by this demo video for their BH15-112 'Handsome Devil':




There is also a very interesting comparison video on YouTube featuring one of these and a Fender Blues Junior.

I'll be heading to the shop e-mando in hand this weekend to try one of these out.

In the meantime, I'd like to hear from others who have played through/owned a Blackheart amp.

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## rico mando

not heavy enough distortion/drive  for my full range of tastes but seems quite nice if your not getting heavier than blues or rock and roll

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## Ed Goist

Rico, thanks much for your comments.
Oh, and I just found this demo video also. Very nice. Looking forward to trying one of these out.

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## rico mando

These guys do better demo's , this had better bottom end in the audio . wonder if you can dial in some metal rhythm crunch or high gain metal leads . nice cleans on it as far as i can tell great blues and rock sounds as well , you will have to give us a more hands on review when you check this out .

Really want to know how much headroom this baby has

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## Dave Schimming

I have the Fender Super Champ XD which puts out great sound with my Tele & Strat and weighs only 24 pounds. Having said that I don't feel that the acoustic setting on channel 2 was intended for good acoustic instrument sound reproduction (or it just doesn't)  and an electric guitar amp is designed to color the signal. If it were me and I wanted a clean acoustic sound for mandolin I would purchase one of the solid state amps designed for acoustic instruments (number of good options out there).

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## Dan Hulse

Hey Ed, I have an Epiphone Valve Jr. (head) & a Bugera V22, both of which can be found at GC, or you can come play through mine if you find yourself on the far west side. My mando bird really screams through the Bugera. If you want to go the boutique route there is always Dr. Z. Happy hunting!

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## Ed Goist

Thanks so much for all the comments and suggestions!
Dave, I am not at all looking for an amplified clean acoustic 8-string mandolin sound. I am looking for a distinct solid-body, electric mandolin sound (think Jeff Bird with Cowboy Junkies).
1-2-many; thanks for the Bugera recommendation. I'll have to add that to my list to try. After I get this all figured out, and move forward, we should try to get together and violate some of Ohio's anti-noise statutes.  :Grin:

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## Dan Hulse

Sounds good Ed, I'm always up for making some noise, I mean music.

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## Ed Goist

Began test-driving tube amps today...
Sorry about the earthquake.  :Grin:

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## Ed Goist

I saw on the liner notes for _"Time Slips On By"_ that Rich DelGrosso and Del Toro Richardson both use Category 5 Tube Amps exclusively. Awesome tone on this album!

So, I went to the Category 5 artist page and began to drool when I saw the artists' names listed there (the first row of the page features pics of Joe Bonamassa, Gary Moore & Warren Haynes!).  :Disbelief: 

Then I went to the info & shop page for the 18W Tsunami combo, and I began to weep when I saw the price.  :Crying: 

 :Smile:

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## Chris Ferreira

Have you checked out Carrs?  (www.carramps.com) NFI.  A friend of mine swears by these.  I've played through them (guitar and mando) and they really are impressive.  Lots of tonal options even at low volume.  They're also hand wired but somewhat less expensive than the Cat-5 will set you back.

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## Jonathan Reinhardt

Ed - you are just going to have to try out different ones. The choices are just overwhelming, and we all seem to like something different it seems. 
If price is a big factor, that will narrow it down!
I use a 74 Fender Princeton Reverb, and piggy back it with a 74 Fender Super Reverb for fullness, when portability is not the biggest issue of the day (thus usually this is an at home application!). I happen to like the Fender vintage tube amp sound. I also use a 65 Fender Vibrolux Reverb, which is a much more sparkly and interesting sound, but it is not the amp I want to take out and about, for a variety of reasons.
On most Fender amps of the 70's there was a departure from the 60's (Blackface) circuitry and sound. But the Princeton was relatively unchanged until mid to late 70's. The 70's Silverface Fender amps are not as highly priced as the Blackfaces, and actually many have been "Blackfaced" somewhere along the line by amp techs. But you probably know this stuff already. 
Juke amps, hand made in New Hampshire a few at a time, and occasionally available used, are awesome amps. If I needed to play my electric regularly, I would obtain and use a Juke. But my electric gigs are few and far between, and the Fenders do double duty nicely for my Tele (my Cajun band persona). Economy and reality rule.
I once was bit badly by amp acquisition syndrome, but fought it off by researching, obtaining, and utilizing quality NOS tubes, with surprisingly successful results. Then I had to fight off speaker acquisition syndrome. Fortunately I believe in not deviating from original speakers (isn't that a part of what the particular amp is about?) unless absolutely necessary, which saved me somewhat. Unfortunately, they don't last forever in the vintage amps.
I hope you find the one that works for you soon.

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## Ed Goist

Jonathan; thanks for the thorough and informative post.
Getting to play my JBovier through that tube amp was a real eye-opener. A game-changer of sort for how I thought about the e-mando sound in general.
Since then, I have come somewhat to my senses (though the "tube emulations" coming from my Line6 do seem vastly inferior than they did before my "tube awakening"). Right now, I've moved into the researching and trying-out mode, and will be sure to be patient in the search.
I know what I want: raw, bluesy tones overall; crisp cleans, growling overdrive, & a small, light package. It should be a fun search! 
As always I'm finding the Cafe to be immensely helpful!

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## rico mando

Did you try the blackheart amps  yet ED ? those demo's  seemed good although they did not show any metal type sounds but that does not seem to be in your taste (yet)

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## Ed Goist

Hi Rico; the Blackheart demo is scheduled for Saturday morning (unless I can make it to the shop tomorrow night, which is also a possibility).

I've also added the *VOX AC4TV* to my short-list to demo based on a recommendation from Jeff Bird. Jeff said that this little amp is the closest commercial amp he's heard to his custom prototype harp amp built by Rick Steeves of Homewrecker Amps in Canada, eh!...Strong recommendation!

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## rico mando

I have heard good things  about vox ac4tv though in the context of being a good apartment practice amp .  there  is a forum i like to go to for gear reviews of the electric and recording type . it is called gearslutz . you may want to check it out , but it is not the same community as we have here . but great place for recording engineering info

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## Ignatius

> I've also added the *VOX AC4TV* to my short-list to demo based on a recommendation from Jeff Bird. Jeff said that this little amp is the closest commercial amp he's heard to his custom prototype harp amp built by Rick Steeves of Homewrecker Amps in Canada, eh!...Strong recommendation!


Ed--

I'm not a heavy distortion guy on guitar and am only looking for a little oomph to get the sound going at times, and I actually have not used an e-mando at all. With that said, I found the Vox AC4TV to be vastly underwhelming--one of the single most disappointing purchases of my storied list of unwise music purchases over time. First off, unless things have changed, the AC4TV has a record of a very specific recurring problem: the tone control doesn't appear to work on a large percentage of the amps (at least the combo units). Given their low cost, if you order one of these via mail order, the shipping costs for return and exchange pretty much eat up the value of the amp if the tone control doesn't work (this was the case for me) so if you choose to buy one, buy local because from what I've read, the odds are likely that you will need to exchange it at least once.

In terms of sound, the big selling point of the AC4TV is its ability to adjust output via a built-in attenuator. On its lowest power settings, the amp sounds very thin and piercing, even on guitar, and the distortion is virtually immediate and '80s style unpleasant. In other words, the amp pretty much goes from undistorted to overdistorted on immediately. There really isn't a "gain" or slight overdrive option on this setting.

It is marginally better on the second setting, and the tone sounds decent on the highest setting (4 watts, as I recall). Now, if you are living in an apartment, 4 watts is an ungodly large amount of sound; i.e., tube watts are much, much louder than solid state watts. To get overdrive on a four-watt tube amp, you need to have the amp turned up loud enough to bother your neighbors. 

Long story short, I ended up with an amp that only sounded good on its un-attenuated setting and lacked a tone control. The build quality is what you would expect from a cheap import made in Vietnam. Unlike the rising quality of overseas mandolins, overseas amp production remains a problematic issue. As Big Joe said above, you need to think about amp builds in the same way one thinks about mandolin builders: find reputable builders (large or small, North American or overseas) who are committed to quality and not necessarily quantity. I don't think the AC4TV will serve well as a practice amp for someone who wants to use the amp as an extension of his or her instrument's tonal palette, and I could imagine it really thinning out the sound of an e-mando.

You also need to be conscious of what you are buying in the AC4TV: depending on where it's sold, it has either an 8" or a 10" speaker. An 8" speaker is never going to sound full or lush even in a practice setting so you will want the 10" for sure. Again, keep in mind that this amp never is going to be truly full or lush sounding. I see stories about people buying these and modding the daylights out of them, and that's great if that's your intention, but if you need to do things like change the cabinet, upgrade the speaker, and repair the tone control, you're basically paying for a much better amp with all these costs--but still only end up with a cheap practice amp at the heart of things.

I'm actually quite interested in learning more about the samamp VAC system of adjusting output as well as the use of power scaling in some builders like Reeves Amplification in Ohio. Both of these systems use a type of output adjustment quite different from attenuators, which I have not yet found satisfactory. I currently am using a Weber Mini-Mass with my Fender Vibro Champ, and the attenuator still sucks too much tone, even only partially taming a five or six watt amp like the late '60s Vibro Champ. I'd encourage you to explore power scaling, which appears on various amps (do a search on either power scaling or go to the Reeves Amplification website where they have some links to discussions of this option under the descriptions of particular amps they build). I just started exploring samamp since Big Joe mentioned them, and the VAC system is proprietary to their builder/designer so it is only available on his amps. So far, what I've read in reviews on the Internet says that the VAC (Variable Amplitude Clipping) system works extremely well, and the basic amp has a 12" speaker which is going to give much more fullness even to your quieter practice time.

Ignatius

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## Ed Goist

Ignatius; thank you for the thorough, detailed and informative post.
Your post has reinforced three of my requirements for a combo tube amp:
* A strong preference for a 12" speaker...10" is okay if the amp sounds killer with it, but NOTHING smaller.
* No distances purchases...I have to hear it, and play through it, before I'll buy it.
* No modifications or complicated controls allowed. Plug in here...Flip this switch...Turn this knob...Make music.
Thanks again for the post.

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## Charlieshafer

Not sure why the large speaker is so important. They are sort of a throw-back to the era when all the sound for a gig came out of the speaker cabinets on stage. Now, we tend to want to mic a speaker cabinet for more even sound dispersion through an entire room. The warmth that people describe with a large cabinet is actually the larger diameter speaker's inability to resolve tiny little details. It's a physics thing, the smaller the cone, the less it has to travel, the magnet can control the cone's movement better, and you get less unwanted wave propagation across the actual surface of the cone. The larger cones are a touch slower to respond, even with a larger magnet, especially with the more common paper cones. For a mandolin, pretty much all you're using are higher frequencies, so an 8 inch cone is more than enough. Take a look at all the really high-end audiophile speaker systems out there: most use nothing larger than 8 inch drivers, many smaller, and just a few use a large 12 inch cone specifically as a woofer, with a cross-over cutoff set to about 200hz. 

There's always a little controversy over this, but bigger does not mean better, especially with a mandolin. John Jorgenson shows up with his little amp with a 6" speaker, and it sounds phenomenal. 

The electronics are more critical, which is why the boutique amps are so popular. Carr was mentioned earlier, they're great, the 56's are superb, and we use a Swart Space Tone with an 8" driver for our shows, and mic the cabinet. Some pretty hot guitarists have played through it and all really liked the tone, and with the guitar, they're hitting much lower notes than you ever will on a mandolin. 

Don't want to muddy the waters, and big speakers are fine if you want them, but they're not necessary for incredible tone production.

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## rico mando

you should of heard the guitar player /sales clerk at the store try to talk me out of getting a extension cabinet that only has a 10 inch speaker . he was trying to get me to go to 15inches , good thing i was not interested in any of his  his recommendations  .  i love my mesa boogie 5:25 express with the ten inch speaker worth checking out if you can afford one  . though i do use a 5 string so it put out a little more bottom end .

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## Ignatius

> Take a look at all the really high-end audiophile speaker systems out there. . . .


The only problem with this comparison is that you can't use your high audio system as an amplifier for an instrument, unless you wish to have a formerly high-end audiophile speaker system.  :Smile:  Instrument amplifier speakers and stereo system speakers are meant to do two different sorts of work so the comparison isn't quite as helpful.

I hear your concern about speaker size, Charlieshafer, and I probably should add that obviously, the quality of the speaker matters more than the size. That being said, I would prefer not to have a guitar or mandolin lose any bottom end and would like to increase it when possible, which is why the larger speaker appeals to me. This is why the old Fender Bassman served as a great guitar amp in the old days: the big speaker was a huge part of its full sound. As you noted, I was talking about warmth and lushness because, as I understood it, Ed is not looking for exact reproduction but for an amp that will add to an altered tone. An 8" cheap speaker in a cheap amp is not going to do that, and this was my point about the AC4TV: on its lowest power settings, it is a tinny, fizzy amp to my ear.

The Rivera Sedona, which many consider the gold standard of acoustic reproduction in a tube amp, only offers 12" and 15" options. True, it is primarily a guitar amp, but there is a degree of low end that can be lost with an 8" speaker.

Ignatius

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## Charlieshafer

Well, cheap speakers sound cheap no matter what size, but I do get your point. Probably the most important aspect here is to get a tube amp that's not too powerful, as you want to be able to turn the volume up to really get the tubes heated up; that's where the real warmth of a tube amp is, pushed almost to the distortion level. That way you can get the warmth and the accuracy. Newer 8" drivers have no difficulty going down to 100hz, with a perfectly flat response curve, so the little drivers can really do it if one wants. 

But, I do agree that at lower levels the larger drivers do give you the warmth everyone really likes.

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## Ed Goist

Thanks to everyone for the great on-going discussion.
Very helpful and informative.

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## Jonathan Reinhardt

I just can't resist adding more.
I have found 10"' speakers do it the best for my emando (stock, but very nicely set up, Mandobird). The 12"'s are nice, but unnecessary. You can mic the amp to the PA for whatever else you want at a big gig. The Rivera amps mentioned are great for tone. But truly, you will have to listen to each amp and decide.
Tubes are quite different, manufacturer to manufacturer. A particular tube amp is not a fixed equation. It can be modified, and the tubes can be changed out, and even biased differently. But you do have to start with what appeals to your ear. Quality build and circuitry is the first priority. Size (weight/watts) next. After that, it all falls into place in the fine tuning department if you make the effort.

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## Ignatius

> Well, cheap speakers sound cheap no matter what size, but I do get your point. Probably the most important aspect here is to get a tube amp that's not too powerful, as you want to be able to turn the volume up to really get the tubes heated up; that's where the real warmth of a tube amp is, pushed almost to the distortion level. That way you can get the warmth and the accuracy. Newer 8" drivers have no difficulty going down to 100hz, with a perfectly flat response curve, so the little drivers can really do it if one wants. 
> 
> But, I do agree that at lower levels the larger drivers do give you the warmth everyone really likes.


I took a look at John Jorgenson's website and found the small amp that you described as part of his setup--very impressive! I'm really glad you chimed in on this thread. I don't think the Schertler amps are what Ed is looking for, though, because they seem built for perfect acoustic reproduction. Ed seems more interested in something that will bring overdrive, warmth, and additional character to his tone (if I am understanding his comments up to this point). The Schertler, however, seems perfect as an immensely portable acoustic amp.

I've been considering the Rivera Sedona for several months because it is wired specifically to do both acoustic and electric (two different channels, the acoustic one with a special additional tweeter), but it is expensive and a beast (sixty pounds, I think!). With the Schertler as an option, I could seriously explore the samamp for my electric guitar needs and find a separate acoustic amp--for less money and less weight.

Thanks again, Charlie!

Ignatius

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## Ed Goist

> ...snip...Ed seems more interested in something that will bring overdrive, warmth, and additional character to his tone (if I am understanding his comments up to this point).


Exactly correct. 
I'd also say I'm looking for the tonal _"sophistication"_ or _"class"_ associated with a tube amp. This is a hard thing to describe, but I think users of tube amps will know exactly what I'm talking about.

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## Charlieshafer

Hey Ignatius, Glad one of my ramblings was helpful. They are a beautiful amp, but no, they can't take the place of a big ol' paper-coned  tube-toned powered monster. The Sedona is a very interesting amp for the reasons you listed. If you really want to get all clique-ey bputiquey, make sure you drop names like Train Wreck or Dumble. You rarely rarely see them played, and almost never for sale. This puts them in the category of, "are they really that good or is it mystique? Does it really matter, as so few will know anyway that there's no point?" 

Ed, for sophistication, hopefully you can try some of the Mesa's. Carrs or Swarts. Egnator does a great job at a lower price point. I do sympathize and agree completely with the "try before you buy" attitude. Hopefully there's some good stuff close by you; the smaller-maker combos provide some amazing tone.

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## mandofarmdog

I run all my guitars -- teles, les paul and a 63 Epiphone Century -- through a Gibson GA 15 R.  These are class A, just like the Vox AC 15, and they sound great clean, but dig into the instrument a little, and you can make them growl.  You can find these occasionally on eBay.  They are the same amp as the Trace Elliot Vellocette.  If you can find one, it is worth the look.  They are very minimalist in features: 1 volume, 1 tone, 1 reverb control, a bright switch, and a switch to go from triode to pentode modes.

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## Ed Goist

I spent several fun hours today demoing 5 different small combo tube amps. Here are a few general comments, followed by my short reviews and ratings for each amp (I'll rate them on a 10 point scale).

*General Comments:*
* I really don't like shopping in a box store like Guitar Center (GC). Unfortunately, when you want to try several different products at one time, during the same visit, you really don't have much of a choice.
* I really like shopping at small, private, locally-owned, specialty shops. Of course, the selection is much more limited, but the overall experience is vastly superior. Patronize these folks whenever possible! 
* The staff at both retailers was knowledgeable, gracious and helpful. This made the day very enjoyable.
* A solid-bodied, electric mandolin sure attracts a crowd at a GC. Most (all?) of the other patrons were very interested in the instrument and asked a lot of questions (with very few folks knowing what it was). The e-mando seemed to be of particular interest to all of the young ladies in the store...Why didn't I start playing one of these 30 years ago?

*Amps Played, Reviews, and Ratings (1-10):*

*Orange Tiny Terror 15W/7W 1x10 Tube Combo*
The most expensive of the amps I played today and by a wide margin the least inspiring. Did I just hit a bad example? Sounds decidedly non-tube-like "Are you sure this isn't a solid state amp?"...Bad question to keep having to ask. Had the switchable Pentode (15 Watts)/Triode (7 Watts) modes, but the 7W setting just sounded weak and thin. Okay I guess, but didn't sound as good as my current amp (Line6 Spider III 75). I was unimpressed. Rating: *5/10*

*Fender Hot Rod Series Pro Junior III 15W 1x10 Tube Combo*
Well now that's more like it! Fat, rich tube tone across the board. Wonderful cleans and decent (but not exceptional) overdrive. Sounded much better once things warmed-up. A very classic sounding amp. Looks good too, with nice hardware. If you're looking for a classic, rich, clean rock sound (a la Clapton, Joe Walsh, & Mark Knopfler) this amp would be a good choice. Lacked a good over-driven sound at low volume (an absolute must for me). Still, recommended. Rating: *7.5/10*

*Egnator 'Tweaker' 112 15W 1x12 Tube Combo*
Good, solid, tube sound. Nice appearance, very good speaker. Lots of switches, buttons and knobs (which generally turns me off), but this one certainly offers a nice range of tones. Fat, rich, & warm. Has a nice over-drive, even at moderate volume. A really good choice for a player needing all sorts of different tones from his or her amp. Seems to be a really good value. Recommended. Rating: *8/10*

*Vox AC15C1 15W 1x12 Tube Combo*
_Oh yea, this is what we're talking' about!_ Has a very classic vibe and sound. Rich and warm with a wonderful clean setting. Also has a very nice over-driven crunch to it, that has a thick compressed character. On top of the great tube tone, this amp features very good reverb and tremolo capabilities. Really a lot to like here! The more I played it, the more the tone reminded my of David Gilmour. How's that for a recommendation? I'm impressed. Highly recommended. *8.5/10*

*Blackheart 'Handsome Devil' BH15-112 15W/7W 1x12 Tube Combo*
_Oh my!_ Absolutely fantastic tone with somewhat remarkable volume (I found it hard to play on the 15W setting). Has a wonderful character at 7W...and I mean wonderful. Exceptional bright clean tones (think Pat Metheny) and rich, fat "Billy Gibbons like" overdrive (even at low volume). Moreover, there is 'dark' character to the tone when the bass and presence are cranked (think Tony Iommi). The very high treble notes on the e-mando (say higher that the 7th fret B on the E-string) sounded much cleaner on this amp (with no clipping) than they did on the other amps. In addition, this amp seems perfectly balanced across the mandolin's tonal range. Sounds much more expensive than any of the other amps. A remarkable value. Very highly recommended. Rating: *9.5/10*

In closing, there are two other amps I've made arrangements to try (an Epiphone and a Crate), but I don't expect they will even come close to the Blackheart...

I think it's time to sell the Line6 and take things to another level.  :Grin: 

Thanks again to everyone who has posted here helping me with my search.

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## Charlieshafer

Nice review, Ed. That sort of input is really helpful. I'm thinking the Blackheart is it, then, the others won't match up, I'm sure. Glad you liked the Egnator. I played around with a friend's for a bit and thought it was a good pice of gear for the cash, and pretty versatile. And, though it's supposed to not matter, I liked the looks. I'm also a sucker for lots of little knobs, even if I can't figure them all out.

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## rico mando

Here is something to consider http://www.avid.com/US/products/Eleven-Rack. granted they are trying to emulate a real amp so i will agree the real amp is better . but they are getting close and its cheaper than owning 13 amps and 17 effects pedals .  plus microphones and pro tools . any way they do a better job of explaining what it does than i do . so do not ask me question about it as i do not own one or have not tried one either . as far as i can tell some people love it and others think it sounds like garbage . same about the "axe fx" better but more expensive http://www.fractalaudio.com/

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## Mark Seale

Just to clear one little tidbit up about small amps, the small amp John Jorgensen and Jason Anick are using on stage is http://www.philjonespuresound.com/products/?id=13

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## Tom Wright

It's not clear to me if there is any agreement here on what tone is wanted. I look for a guitar sound and guitar-amp tone, meaning not tinkly mandolin high end. For that I would mike or piezo an acoustic mando. 

Another issue is whether tone means distortion at some level. The warm tube tone usually implies less crackly highs, due to lousy high-frequency response, but also, in the case of Fender amps, sharp drop in high end from the Jensen speakers. This means that the dynamic value of clipping (sustain and controlled attacks) is achieved without obvious crackle and dirt.

Another issue is the transition from clean to clipped, thus the Class A devotees. Fender amps are Class B, various design issues are involved, etc. I remember a fellow rocker in the 70s playing through a blacktop Deluxe Reverb, with JBL speaker. Very crackly transistor sound even though it was a tube amp.

In the 70s I used a modified Twin, channel-channel overdrive, adding MXR distortion for sustain. Nice, but who needs that kind of burden?

The overdrive/distorton pedals available now are really good, whether digital or analog. I am ready to order a pedal from AnalogMan (waiting list) called King of Tone, that has two channels for switching between presets. All analog, long battery life. That company has various distortion/overdrive choices, including my current pedal, a Maxon Sonic Distortion.

Speakers are a huge issue, most are brighter in tone than 60s cones. For a sweet, fat tone, the Celestion 12s are great, and they have a 10 called the Greenback that is not hard and crackly. You can buy the traditional Fender/Jensen but they are limited in their tone range. I use a neodynium-magnet Celestion 12, rather bright but I like the 4.5 pound weight. 

Maybe it's too complicated for some, but separating the jobs of power/weight, basic tone color, and overdrive/distortion, frees you from expensive and clunky boutique tube amps. BTW, their very inefficient power consumption is not a "green" approach. I recommend something handy and compact, install the speaker of choice (I like 12s), apply extra distortion and EQ as needed. For low noise I'm using a K&K "Pure Preamp" (intended for acoustic bass players, I think) as outboard EQ. But the Boss EQ pedals are handy, and can dramatically change the color.

The belief that tube watts are louder is not founded on reality. Some amps have a less-obvious distortion happening, and thus seem loud, compared to a crackly solid-state amp that needs to stay away from clipping. But comparing ratings is another issue, since my Crate head's optimistic 150 watts is taken at 10% distortion. Really more like 100 watts. Old Fender amps were measured at 5%, RMS, I think.

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## Ignatius

> Maybe it's too complicated for some, but separating the jobs of power/weight, basic tone color, and overdrive/distortion, frees you from expensive and clunky boutique tube amps. BTW, their very inefficient power consumption is not a "green" approach.


Tom--

I'm not sure what you mean here. In the first quoted sentence, are you suggesting that one should simply add pedals, rather than look for tone or gain style within the amp? And along with the second sentence, it almost sounds like you are claiming that boutique amps are--by definition--inefficient, expensive, and clunky.

Truly not trying to start an argument here; I'm trying to understand because I'm trying to figure out my next amplification move.

Ignatius

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## Tom Wright

More like I am likely to get an argument, but don't really intend it. I just feel that going the boutique route is both expensive and burdensome, and not necessary. Lower-cost tube amps may be fine, but I think the key is the speaker, the EQ, and the distortion response. All can be achieved in various ways. And tube amps just weigh so darn much, heavy transformers for power supply and output coupling, heavy box to protect the fragile tubes, etc.

The above does require experimentation, so maybe not the easy route for a starter. But I would not recommend an expensive boutique amp for starters, either.

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## foldedpath

> I've been considering the Rivera Sedona for several months because it is wired specifically to do both acoustic and electric (two different channels, the acoustic one with a special additional tweeter), but it is expensive and a beast (sixty pounds, I think!). With the Schertler as an option, I could seriously explore the samamp for my electric guitar needs and find a separate acoustic amp--for less money and less weight.


I've owned a Rivera Sedona since they first came out, years ago when it was a bit less expensive. Here's some thoughts on it. 

First, it's truly the _only_ dual-purpose tube amp that can be used for electric instruments and acoustic instruments with pickups, due to the tweeter that can be kicked in or out of circuit. It has a feedback notch filter too, which you'd never find on a standard electric guitar amp. It's hand-wired, built like a tank, and heavy (I have the original 12" combo version). It's not a good bedroom amp. At 55 watts, it's very loud when driven hard enough to saturate the power tubes. The master volume lets you get a distorted preamp tone at lower volume, which isn't quite the same thing, but may work for some folks.

A while back, I replaced the original speaker -- a JBL with a huge, heavy magnet that's really more of a PA speaker -- with a lighter-weight Celestion. That shaves a bit of weight off the amp, and shifts the tone a little more towards traditional electric guitar amp tone without compromising the acoustic amp side very much. I think it took about 8 lbs. off the weight, but it's still an amp I think twice about carrying out of the house for gigs. In fact, it's been years since I've gigged with it. I use it now mainly as a studio recording amp. 

For electric tones on a gig, or just fooling around at home, I use a Roland VG-99 that covers a lot of sonic ground and doesn't have the weight (I know digital amp modelers are heresy in a discussion like this, but it really does sound great). On the acoustic side I've got a nice compact PA system. So, the Sedona fits in an awkward middle ground for me now, and doesn't get used much. But I'll still never sell it. It's nice to go back to it every once in a while, and remind myself what a good tube amp sounds like. 

Okay, that's a bit of a diversion from what Ed is looking for, but I thought I'd mention it since others here are looking at the Sedona as a possibility. It's a great amp, but you have to really need that tweeter to make it worthwhile. 

On the general topic of tube amps, I like the Fender Blues Jr. as a decent amp if the budget is limited. Nice and simple, good tone. In the boutique area, I like the Carr Mercury a lot. Sweet little amp. I keep trying to find an excuse to get one, but I'm just not playing that style of music right now, and I have a lot of other bases covered between the Sedona and the VG-99. Ah well, maybe one day...

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## Ignatius

Hi foldedpath--

Thanks for the comments on the Sedona. Your thoughts on its practice volume sound are VERY helpful to me. I was hoping the master volume would work miracles, but I may need to look elsewhere--and it sounds like the Sedona's weight truly is a huge problem.

Ignatius

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## Mike Bromley

I up-biased a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe with some Sovtek 3881's in place of the 6L6's, which warmed it up nicely, as well as raising its distortion threshold.  A simple fix for those so inclined to tinker.  I also tried running an old blacktop Super Reverb with a 12AU7 preamp tube in the vibrato channel.  That worked fairly well too.

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## lukmanohnz

Over years of searching for the ultimate tube amp tone, I've learned two things: 1) overdrive from the output tubes will always sound sweeter than preamp tube distortion; and 2) the fewer things between my guitar and amp, the better the tone (though I've rarely gotten good tone without at least a cable between the guitar and amp ;-).  These insights have led me to using amps with the lowest overall power that is still practical for the gig.  I have three main amps - a mid 80's Fender Champ 12 practice amp (1-6L6 output tube, Class A), a Marshall DSL20 (2-EL84s, Class A-B [I think]), and a Gibson GA30RVS (4-EL84s in stereo, 2 per side, Class A, from the original UK Trace Elliot factory). The output tube type does seem to make a difference to my ear, though that said, I have heard some great amp tones and some horrible amp tones from the same type of output tube.  I gravitate toward EL84s for their old-school bluesy vibe. Speakers also make a huge difference, and Celestions have always sounded better to my ear than just about any other brand.  I can't stand bad clean tone, so I listen to the amp's clean sound first.  If it's not there for me, I move on, because there is no pedal in the world that will make a bad sounding clean channel sound any better. I prefer amps with a good, serviceable reverb on board - one less foot pedal between my guitar and amp! If you liked that Marshall you tried early on, I suggest you try out one of the lower wattage UK-make Marshalls.  They are still one of the best amp companies in the business, and To my ear there is a distinct character to the Marshall amps that is uniquely their own.  Unfortunately, the DSL20 is no longer in production, but eBay always has several listings for used ones.  They are not highly collectible, so the street prices are very reasonable, and these are incredible-sounding amps for the money.  Every Trace Elliot I ever played was astounding.  The Gibson GA30RVS is about the best clean tone I've ever heard in an amp.  Sadly, the design changed when Gibson brought the production stateside, and the US made Gibsons don't have the same ballsy punch, to my ear anyway.  Again, these early Gibsons are readily available on the used market for quite modest sums owing to their (inexplicable) lack of collectibility.  If you can find a used Trace Elliot Velocette, those were also unbelievable tone machines.  In the end your ear is the only thing that matters - find the amp that puts a s#*t-eating grin on your face and then just plug in and play.  Happy hunting!

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## Charlieshafer

> Just to clear one little tidbit up about small amps, the small amp John Jorgensen and Jason Anick are using on stage is http://www.philjonespuresound.com/products/?id=13


Last time John came around, we were hooking up his Schertler, and I still believe he endorses them, unless something has changed over the past couple of months.

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## Mark Seale

Not sure on the endorsement front, but his quintet was traveling with these when they came through Austin for a gig and a private party in May.  Could be the size and scope of the venue, but the sound was incredible.

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## Perry

> Have you checked out Carrs?  (www.carramps.com) NFI.  A friend of mine swears by these.  I've played through them (guitar and mando) and they really are impressive.  Lots of tonal options even at low volume.  They're also hand wired but somewhat less expensive than the Cat-5 will set you back.


My Carr Rambler is not so much an an amp as it is an "instrument" Incredible clean tune amp tones. Handles pedals well.

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## Ed Goist

An Ultimate Boutique Amp: *The Frankenstein 17*

Well; I have had an unexpected, yet delightful plot twist in my search for a small tube amp!

As part of my search, I decided to get the advice of the radio engineer with whom I work. He is a very knowledgeable and multifaceted guy. He was a bass trombone player with our local symphony for over two decades, and before serving as the RF engineer at the radio station he was an audio engineer. Needless to say he knows his stuff about amps, speakers, sound and music. 

When I told him that I was looking for a small (up to 30W) all-tube amp, he first acknowledged that there is no substitute for tubes, but then he told me about a tube amp that he had built many years ago for one of his sons who was playing guitar at the time. His son had lost interest in guitar playing many years ago, and the amp was just sitting in his basement collecting dust. He offered to clean it up, and give it to me to play through to see if I liked it.

Well; he gave it to me at work the other day, and I was absolutely floored by the cool retro vibe! He built the amp into an old portable phonograph frame, and even used the original, detachable 6X9 speaker cabinets for the speakers! The amp itself is based on an old Fender Princeton amp, and the inner workings of the amp are on display as one plays through it! As a result of this delightful feature, I have dubbed her 'The Frankenstein 17'. Here are her specs:

The Frankenstein-17
* Circuitry based on a 1964 Fender Princeton amp
* Wattage: ~ 17 watts
* Controls: volume, treble, midrange, bass, presence
* Custom cabinet
* Two parallel outputs (8 ohms)
* Two 6X9 cone speakers.

And here are some pics:

 

 

 

Though I am without an e-mando for a couple of months, I strapped on the Telecaster tonight and fired Frankenstein up! *This thing is an untamed beast, especially when she warms up.*

The Tele sounded fantastic through this amp, especially on hard driving stuff like early Stones, early Who and The Ramones. I could not believe how loud and aggressive this amp is (never got the volume much past 2). It is so much more raw and untamed than the modern tube amps I've tried...When playing through this amp one expects a fight to break out any second...It's the amp for me!

Though there is a warm "purr" from this amp as one turns the instrument volume knob up, it really doesn't have an overdrive channel, so I will likely pick-up a nice distortion pedal of some type to run into it. 

I will probably also upgrade the speaker set-up. Speaking of which, I'll have to ask my engineer buddy if I can use just one of the parallel outputs, or if I'll need to get two speakers and run them both...My heavens, I can only imagine this thing running into two 12s...Yowzah!

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## rico mando

do not leave it plugged in on stand by  when your not using it . my friends had their jam room catch fire and burned up the gear in the room . landlord was not happy either . i think it was a brand name amp that was old and dusty .

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## Ed Goist

Good advice, Rico. Will do.
I'm pretty careful with stuff like that.
I unplugged it right after using it last night, and left the top uncovered giving the tubes time to cool off.

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## Tom Haywood

Sounds like you are zeroing in on it. I've been a tube amp guy since the 1960s, but that has changed a little lately. I was getting ready for a few solo gigs on acoustic guitar and mandolin last May. I experimented with my 1968 Twin Reverb and my Blues Jr., using an in-hole pickup on the guitar and a Shure dynamic mic for the mandolin. It turned out to be a nightmare. First the Twin's transformer caught on fire in an upstairs carpeted bedroom. I could barely pick it up to carry it out. I wound up playing through the Blues Jr. and clipping a cheap pickup to the mandolin. Volume control in a large room was extremely limited due to feedback, and the tone was much thinner than I expected. Tried it again at the next gig using mics instead of pickups. Tone was better, but volume was still a big problem. A player who was in the audience later loaned me his Acoustasonic 30. I bought it from him that same day. Fantastic tone and plenty of volume for a 15 watt amp. No feedback and it hardly weighs anything. I'm solid state now, at least for acoustic.

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## Verne Andru

As someone mentioned earlier, there doesn't appear to be much clarity on the type of tone being sought. Want crunch? Clean?

I have a bunch of different amps for different purposes. So far I prefer the sound of mandolin through a clean amp. My fave is:



It's a 1960's MIJ TAKT. Approximately 3 watts, hand-wired point-to-point [i.e. rats-nest wiring] with a sweet 6" alnico speaker. I've used it extensively for jamming my mandolin with a delay pedal. Found it on Craigslist for $75.

My second fave is:



Crate Taxi. Traynor is selling the exact same unit in Canada under their brand. 15 watts SS with rechargeable battery. More like a 2 channel, full-range mini-PA. It has 2 midrange controls which really helps dialing in a sweet tone. Also got mine for $75 off Craigslist.

For bigger gigs where I need more power and distortion, I have a heavily modded Crate V33 head that I run through a Genz-Benz G-Flex 212. The clean channel is very nice and the gain channel has a bunch of high-gain mods that will melt your face off.

For balls-out loud and clean I use a 70's Yamaha G100 210. 100 watts of SS power that fills just about any room. This is the same amp jazz guitarist Mike Stern uses [his is the 212].

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## Ed Goist

I had the day off yesterday, so I headed over to my local Guitar Center. Since I'm still waiting on my Ryder e-mando build, and since this was a very casual visit (_"...no thanks, I'm just browsing"_  :Smile:  ), I didn't take an instrument with me.

Firstly; the only mandolin in stock there was a Pac-Rim A-style with the brand name "Mitchell". It was priced at $120, and once I got it tuned-up, it played pretty well. It sounded cheap, tinny, and plinky, but it had decent playability. Not horrible.

Anyways, to get back on topic, the store also had a new *Fender Super Champ XD (15W/1@10")* combo amp in stock, and the same knowledgeable and professional salesperson (_I believe he's in management there, and if he isn't, he should be_) who waited on me during my marathon amp trial in August recognized me and suggested I try the Fender Champ XD.

So, I tried-out the amp playing an American Standard Telecaster to start. *I was almost immediately awestruck by the classy, rich tube tone of this amp.* It totally and completely blew me away! Just incredible! It clearly outperformed and outclassed everything I had played during my August amp demo. *What an amp!*

Since my Ryder will be equipped with Humbuckers, I wanted to hear how this amp would perform with Humbuckers played into it, so I switched to a Les Paul Standard... *Oh My! It sounded even better.*

I probably shouldn't admit this, but amp voice #13 on the XD Champ sounded so good with the Les Paul that it brought tears to my eyes, literally (_"...Oh, no, I'm okay, I just have something in my eye!"_)

The dial-in effects and amp voicings on this amp sound outstanding, and they are intuitive and easy to understand and operate. This is important for an old Luddite like me. I've owned my Line 6 emulation amp for 3 years and I still don't know how to work it!

Regarding the 16(?) amp voicings available on the Super Champ XD, I was especially impressed by the tone of voicings # 3, 6, 8, 9, and (_like I said_), most especially 13...Flat out _Electric Blues Heaven_ on setting #13..._Can you say Warren Haynes?!_

Oh, and I can not believe how great the stock 10" speaker in this amp sounded!

I almost bought this amp on the spot, but reason prevailed, and I decided that I would need to hear the Ryder played through it before making the purchase. If the Ryder sounds even remotely as good through this as the Les Paul did, I will buy it immediately. I've already asked the store to order the optional foot switch for this amp so it will be available for me when I come back to demo the amp again with my Ryder.

*What an amp*. Oh, and when I searched for this amp on the Cafe, I see that Jim Hilburn has already enlightened us about this gem right here in this thread. I could not agree more with him!

My Rating? *10 out of 10*. This is one of the best pieces of musical equipment I have encountered...Oh, and in terms of value, it would be a good value at twice its price! Incredible...Now I'm even more psyched about getting my Ryder!  :Grin:

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## Ed Goist

Well, I played the Fender Super Champ XD again on Friday, and I am now even more of a believer.

It's very intuitive and easy to operate, and with one of these and the optional foot switch (to switch between the clean channel and channel 2, and to turn the effects on & off) I'd certainly have access to all the different tonal settings I'd need as a non-gigging hobbyist. 

This is a fantastic amp.

While searching my purchasing options on-line, I came across this eye candy...



Blonde Tolex with oxblood grill..._(drool)..._

However, despite inquiries high and low, I can't seem to find one of these for sale anywhere. (This option doesn't even appear on the Fender website, though I have a message in to them).

So, I hoping someone here might have an idea where I can purchase/order one of these. Thanks in advance.

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## Barry Canada

Seeking some advice for the best sound!
I have an old fender vibro champ and ampeg reverb rocket II. How can I best maximize the sound quality of these amps for my acoustics and electrics? should I be using preamps or DI boxes? Or are these amps outdated?

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## Verne Andru

Most tube amps, unless otherwise specified, have been voiced for electric guitar, not acoustic. There is a more pronounced mid-range spike and they are designed to be more easily pushed into distortion.

Acoustic, keyboard and PA type amplifiers are voiced to represent the full range of sound and designed to stay clean at high volumes.

If you want to sound like a high-pitched guitar with distortion, get a guitar tube amp. If you want the full voice of your acoustic instrument to come through use what the pro's use - a full range solid-state amp.

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## Verne Andru

While the Fender Super Champ XD is a nice little amp, it is a solid-state modeling amp with a tube component to make people wanting to say they have a tube amp feel good. It is not a "tube amp" in the sense that tubes are doing the work. It's mostly DSP, opamps and, perhaps, a few transistors. The rest is marketing.

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## Ed Goist

Verne, I think the Super Champ XD sounds great whatever one calls it and however it is made.
I'm judging on sound not on marketing.
In my opinion, many all-tube fanatics are listening to the specs, and not the actual tone, and are judging on a prejudice.
I'd love for these folks to do a blind tasting of the Super Champ vs. another all-tube amp. I'm sure most would be leery to be involved in such a test.

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## Polecat

> Most tube amps, unless otherwise specified, have been voiced for electric guitar, not acoustic. There is a more pronounced mid-range spike and they are designed to be more easily pushed into distortion.


Verne, can you explain what you mean by "mid-range spike"? my understanding is that the tone-control circuit acts as a filter that drops mid-frequency (ca. 150-400 hz) amplification. I found that playing around with the value of the capacitors in the tone circuit gave me a much more "mandoliny" sound (with an electric - I agree with you that it is pointless to try to use a normal tube amp to amplify accoustic instruments)

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## Rayne

This is all so complex!  I just went to a GC, saw my future Fender Deluxe sitting there, played it for 30 seconds, kicked it a couple of times and bought it.

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## rico mando

oops

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## Rayne

> oops


"Oops" - because I kicked it before I bought it?  I kick all of my things - including boys - before they go home with me.  I don't want em konking out in the middle of a performance.

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## Verne Andru

> Verne, can you explain what you mean by "mid-range spike"? my understanding is that the tone-control circuit acts as a filter that drops mid-frequency (ca. 150-400 hz) amplification. I found that playing around with the value of the capacitors in the tone circuit gave me a much more "mandoliny" sound (with an electric - I agree with you that it is pointless to try to use a normal tube amp to amplify accoustic instruments)


Without getting overly complicated, there are various and sundry tone-stack variations in guitar amps - everything from a single passive tone knob to electronically complex active schemes. Some of the more common passive designs can be viewed here:

http://amps.zugster.net/articles/tone-stacks

Amps with an all tube signal path [particularly early ones] yield a fairly dark sound requiring some tonal modification so the instrument is heard in an ensemble. In early amps [like original Fender Champ, Princeton, etc.] a single tone knob was added with a capacitor that shunts high-frequencies [treble] to ground in a manner similar to a guitar's tone knob. When this wasn't enough, effects pedals providing treble-boost were used.

Generally speaking, tube amps with a single tone knob [like my TAKT above, amps based on early Fender Champs, etc.] allow more of the full frequency range to make it through to the speaker since the tone capacitor shunts high-frequencies only. These types of amps will sound better with instruments like mandolins since they are more full frequency. As a side note, the only mod I made to my TAKT was to add a capacitor to reduce bass since it was way too dark sounding to be much good for anything.

When you start adding controls to a passive tone stack [bass, treble, mid] things get much more complicated very quickly. Passive designs react in a such a way as to effect all frequencies interactively. As you change the treble setting, as one example, you are also modifying the mid-range and bass. One of Ken Fishers [Trainwreck amp designer] vintage Fender Deluxe mods includes reducing the tone stack to a single tone knob to allow a fuller mid-range to come through. Builders use a combination of capacitors [unless its digitally modeled like the Super Champ XD, Line 6, etc.] to vary the frequencies they shunt to ground - i.e., don't pass through to the speaker - to create their signature sound. Play with the capacitor values and you change the frequencies effected which changes the tone coming from the amp. You can download a free tone-stack calculator that lets you see how different designs and values effect the frequency spectrum here:

http://duncanamps.com/tsc/index.html

The term "cutting through the mix" refers to modifying the sound frequency of the instrument so it sits in a part of the frequency spectrum that doesn't conflict with other instruments. Guitar amps, starting with VOX AC15, have a pronounced mid-range spike designed into them [VOX is credited as being the first amp voiced specifically for guitar] to place the guitar within a frequency range [upper mids] that doesn't conflict with bass, vocals and other frequencies. Other manufacturers have followed suit and designed their tone-stacks similarly.

It's interesting to note that when you think you are "adding" treble by turning up the treble knob, what you are really doing is reducing bass frequencies. Physics doesn't allow you to add something that doesn't already exist, but you can remove something that does. Vice-versa for bass - turning the bass knob up causes the electronics to reduce high-frequencies giving the illusion of adding bass.

Clear as mud?

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## Ed Goist

> ...snip...I don't want em konking out in the middle of a performance.


_"Reliability is job one. If your favorite amp stops working, it goes from being a treasured part of your gear to a piece of junk faster than you can read this sentence."_ - Paul Rivera (Fender and Rivera Amplification)

Oddly appropriate, no?  :Grin:

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## Jim Hilburn

Ed, I told you back at the beginning about the XD!
Verne, your wrong about the XD not being a tube amp. When you use the non-DSP channel it's straight 2 6V6 tubes. Not even sure of the class, I just know it's running through the tubes.

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## Verne Andru

> Verne, your wrong about the XD not being a tube amp. When you use the non-DSP channel it's straight 2 6V6 tubes. Not even sure of the class, I just know it's running through the tubes.


Hey Jim - according to Fenders site it is a "Hybrid Tube/Solid State Amplifier configured as "15 watts (Class "AB")" with a "Diode Rectifier", "1 x 12AX7 & 2 x 6V6". They also say "Its solid-state overdrive and distortion eliminate many of the preamp tube problems that plague tube lovers while providing exemplary tones for rock, blues, country, jazz, metal and more."

While this may be splitting hairs, a preamp section requires 4 levels of amplification that's usually provided by 2 x 12A?7's - which is really 2 x 6AV6 tubes in a single package. The lack of a second 12AX7 means the signal runs through some solid-state circuitry enroute to the power section.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing. I have a Crate V8 which uses an opamp as the first 2 preamp stages then a 12AX7 and out to an EL84. It sounds great [for guitar but sucks with mando's and acoustics], but is much different sounding than my other all tube amps.

The really creamy distortion you get out of vintage Deluxe is a combination of pre-amp and tube rectifier distortion. The XD, according to Fender, gets its distortion from solid-state circuitry.

I have not said, nor am I saying, the XD is a bad amp. All I'm saying is it isn't all tube - it's a hybrid. If it speaks to Ed, great. I'm just calling a spade a shovel FWIW.

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## Jim Hilburn

Only when you choose to use the overdrive circuitry. And you can overdrive the tubes if you choose to. Your probably correct about the pre-amp section. I'm no amp genius. It seemed you were implying in your earlier post that they were running it through the 12ax to be able to call it a tube amp and I'm just pointing out it's much more complex than that.
 And about the modelling selections, I never expected to be a fan of that technology but they got it so right that there's nothing not to love. There's a reason Ed is jazzed about it!

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## Verne Andru

> Only when you choose to use the overdrive circuitry. And you can overdrive the tubes if you choose to. Your probably correct about the pre-amp section. I'm no amp genius. It seemed you were implying in your earlier post that they were running it through the 12ax to be able to call it a tube amp and I'm just pointing out it's much more complex than that.


If the tone controls work on both channels, then it is absolutely relying on SS to modify the tone.

Since Fender is making such a case about NOT using tubes for distortion, they probably have some pretty hefty resistors on the input section to drop the signal. If this is the case, the only way to drive your preamp tube into distortion is to have either really hot pickups or a signal booster before the input jack. But this assumes you hit the tube first and not the SS circuitry. Since tubes are inherently noisy, proper design for a clean signal [which is what Fender is going for] would be to put the SS circuit first, then the tube[s] as is the case on my V8.

As for the power section, unless you have an effects loop - which sits between the preamp and power amp sections - it's virtually impossible to push the 6V6's into distortion. Even with an effects loop, there's usually a makeup gain stage right after the effect return jack that will overdrive long before the power tubes do. On vintage amps, what is commonly referred to as "power tube" distortion is actually the tube rectifier distorting. The XD has a SS rectifier.

I'm no amp genius either but I did take radio and television electronics at college out of high school then worked as a bench tech in the early 70's when there was still a lot of tube radio's, TV's and such in common use. I moved on to other things but started revisiting my tech background again recently.

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## Jim Hilburn

Here's a message board posting that addresses what's going on with this amp.
http://www.fenderforum.com/forum.htm..._number=654379 
In case you didn't see my earliest post about this amp one of the main selling points for me is how good it sounds at low volume. I've been through the amps that will deafen you when you finally find the sweet spot. But I just turned the XD to 10 in the main channel and it broke up quite nicely and I don't believe it's a digital trick.

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## Verne Andru

The only way tubes will distort is when they are pushed beyond their optimum operational parameters - i.e. they are running wide open which means it's pretty loud. But it's a free society and you can believe whatever you wish.

At the end of the day, if you like the way it sounds that's all that matters.

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## Jim Hilburn

I owned a '59 Deluxe that was so prisine it was virtually from a time capsule. And cranked it had that overdrive to die for. But those amps are a bit of a 1 trick pony. So I got a '65 Deluxe Reverb. Great clean tone, but it still had to be quite loud to get that sparkling tone.
 That's why the XD is so useful for me. At very low volume it has that shimmering clean tone, actually a bit warmer than the DR but I can play with acoustic musicians without over doing it. 
Yes, it distorts nicely and gets quite loud on 10, but I have no use for that. So the digital modeling overdrives are just like Ed mentioned, very authentic but still at low volumes. Being quiet is what's good about this amp.

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## Barry Wilson

Nothing wrong with solid state amps. Tube amps are awesome when the tubes are good, but if you are travelling and gigging, you better pack spare tubes in case. Today's modelling amps do an amazing job of re creating those tubers. I have pedals with amp simulators and a fender modelling amp. I love the sounds. and having so many amps to choose from is amazing. blues played on an overdriven fender bassman etc. the fender amps are so accurate... and there's marshalls, vox and such as well. I even have a little yamaha 20 watter that was for harmonica but sometimes I plug into that.

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## Barry Canada

Where does an old 70's vintage vibro champ fit into all of this in layman's language?
It seems to sound nice with my Godin A8!
Thanks,

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## Verne Andru

> Where does an old 70's vintage vibro champ fit into all of this in layman's language?


Pretty sweet IMHO.

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## Jim Hilburn

Hey, Verne, many years ago before I went on the vintage Fender quest, I bought a Music Man RD50-112 which featured a solid state preamp with a 6L6 power section in a compact 12" combo. It was most famously represented by Chet Atkins and it had a great clean tone. Maybe it has some common traits with the XD.

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## Ed Goist

The Fender Super Champ XD in action...
(videos by Don Anderson)

*Want Gilmour?*




*Want Santana?*




*Want Classic Electric Blues?* _This one is flat-out off the hook!_

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## Jim Hilburn

Ed, there are some video's of Don going through the controls which is helpful.

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## mandopete

Late to this thread as I posted a similar thread over in the emando section.  Very interesting as I looked at the Super Champ, but decided that a little more power might be needed (I was looking for something more like 40w and 12' speaker).  Funny though as I hauled out my old Champ (1970's) and Music Man 212-HD 130 (1980) and find that by comparison the new amps today are waaaay more sophisticated.  Guess I'll go back to Guitar Center after Christmas (if I get a bonus this year) and see what's up for the $300 price point.

 :Coffee:

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## Ed Goist

Mandopete; a nice thing about not gigging is that lots of power and volume is not essential. However, excellent tone and distortion at low volume is, and IMO (and as Jim points out), the Super Champ thrives there.

Also, this amp sounds so good to me I'd be tempted to try it through a cabinet before deciding I needed more power. The quick-connect _'speaker out'_ looks handy dandy:



Also, if one uses the _'line out'_ will the speaker in the combo and the external speakers be operational? 

If so, I bet that would make a lot of noise even played with just 2 X 12".

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## mandopete

Here's a pic of my old Champ.  I bought this as a practice amp when I went to Berklee in 1974.  I wanted a Princeton Reverb as it had the reverb (hence the name, eh?), but it would not fit inside the trunk I used to travel from So Cal to Boston.  Talk about abuse... this poor thing has seen it all.  I used it for guitar, bass and even my Rhodes piano.  3 of my kids have had at it too, but so far no one has killed it.  The speaker is kinda shot, but what the hey.

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## Ed Goist

The naked pilot light is classic.

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## mandopete

> * A solid-bodied, electric mandolin sure attracts a crowd at a GC. Most (all?) of the other patrons were very interested in the instrument and asked a lot of questions (with very few folks knowing what it was). The e-mando seemed to be of particular interest to all of the young ladies in the store...Why didn't I start playing one of these 30 years ago?


Hey Ed, just saw your post about a visit to your local GC.  That's exactly what happened to me when I pulled out the Mann 5-String baritone.  Everyone thought it was some sort of little Tele or something.  I got a real chuckle when I wandered over to the Marshall half-stack for a few licks.  What's also funny is that on any given Sunday, Guitar Center is mostly full over over 40 (in my case over 50) year old Dads with their kid (or not) trying to play the old licks from the glory days.  What a hoot, eh?

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## Ed Goist

> ...snip...on any given Sunday, Guitar Center is mostly full over over 40 (in my case over 50) year old Dads with their kid (or not) trying to play the old licks from the glory days.  What a hoot, eh?


I resemble that remark!

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## mandopete

> The naked pilot light is classic.


 :Smile:   Yeah - that thing is just about blinding!

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## Tom Wright

> ...if one uses the 'line out' will the speaker in the combo and the external speakers be operational?


Line out will not turn off speakers. And Fender usually has external speaker jacks leave the combo speaker on, too. Headphone outputs usually disable amp output to speaker, but not line out or external speaker. If using line out to gang amps, you would properly go "line in" on the other amp. Old Fenders used to have double jacks on input, and we could use it as a splitter, taking a cable to the input of another amp. But you could also use line out to the main input of another amp and adjust accordingly. Peter Maunu was playing with LA Express when we shared a venue, and borrowed my Twin Reverb to replace one of his Mesa Boogie Combo amps. He used the line out to capture Boogie overdrive, and had to go in the main input on the Twin. Worked fine.

15W into an efficient cabinet is a useful amount of power. The Beatles improved their club rig in the Hamburg days when they bought a 15W Selmer "Stadium" model amp with a 15" speaker. Note that the amp handled two guitars, a bass and the microphone.

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## Verne Andru

> Hey, Verne, many years ago before I went on the vintage Fender quest, I bought a Music Man RD50-112 which featured a solid state preamp with a 6L6 power section in a compact 12" combo. It was most famously represented by Chet Atkins and it had a great clean tone. Maybe it has some common traits with the XD.


Hey Jim - as I understand it, Leo Fender was manic about getting clean tones out of his gear - he hated distortion and considered it a design flaw. That's why you have to really drive early Fenders to get a nice OD. They were developed long before the advent of solid-state, so he had to struggle against what he viewed as the "limitations" of tubes. By the time he formed MusicMan, solid-state technology had evolved to the point where he used it in his preamp designs continuing his quest for the ultimate clean amp. As I understand it, you can make MM amps distort, but it is SS preamp distortion and the volume levels are such that you can blow out an ear-drum or two.

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## Jim Hilburn

They all had a distortion channel but it wasn't that great. My next stop was Mesa Boogie.

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## Barry Wilson

and to think SRV used a Marshall for his clean sounds and a Fender for his OD stuff  :Wink:

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## jmalmsteen

Hmm....100 watt Marshall JCM900 with two 4x12 cabinets. But that's for an electric guitar. They make 10 watt amps?? To gig with. I would think you would want something maybe a little louder than that.  :Smile:

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## Ed Goist

Pipeous, if you hadn't seen this Wikipedia entry before, you've got to look at it now! (Check out the SRV quote in the second sentence.)

Oh, and regarding distortion, never underestimate the power of a good Tube Screamer!

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## mandopete

> They all had a distortion channel but it wasn't that great.


Are you talking about the MusicMan amps?  I have an HD-212 130 combo and it has a master volume along with a "bright" setting for each channel, but I would hardley call that a "distortion" channel.  I used to crank up the channel volume and ratchet down on the master for distortion, but it really didn't give me what I wanted.

...and yes a Mesa Boogie was next.

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## Jim Hilburn

The RD-50 definitely had clean and a lead channel they called a "limiter channel".
I hate to think of the blacktop Princton Reverbs I could have gotten with the $ I spent on some of those amps in those days. The Boogie seemed to make perfect sense but at the levels that were useful to me it was a very flat sounding amp. They left out the twang. And even though it appeared to be compact it was as heavy as a Twin.

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## mandopete

Yeah, I have been away from amplifiers for close to 20 years now.  The technology has come very far with respect to size and weight.  It was first brought to my attention when our acoustic bass player started using this litttle Genz-Benz 100 watt amp with a 12" speaker.  The thing weighs close to nothing and fits into a nice little backpack.  When I was young there was a guy in So Cal that used to modify Princeton's to soup up the power and those baby's just screamed.  The Mesa Boogie seemed to me to be the first alternative to the Marshall stack and was infinitely more portable (and didn't blow up as often).

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## mandopete

> The RD-50 definitely had clean and a lead channel they called a "limiter channel".


Here's the front panel for the RD-50.  Quite different from my HD-212.

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## Rayne

Hi Ed:

I have a fondness for the Fender XD.  

One of my favorite easy mods:
Take it apart from the back.  You will notice that the rear baffles are solid wood.  Nice touch, since I usually see particle board in amps these days. I pull the preamp 12ax7 and replace it with a Telefunken smooth plate ECC83.  This adds more rear (bottom) and adds that nice vintage velvet tone that we love.  I also replace the speaker.  I don't think much of the original that comes on these amps.  I like to use either a vintage Jensen or one of the reissues.  What a difference!  
The XD is not a copy of a vintage Fender Champ.  A Champ would be a PTP with a 12ax7 preamp, a 5y3 tube rectifier and one 6v6.    

I've torn apart, rebuilt, and modded dozens of Fenders, Marshalls, Vox, Hiwatt, Laney, and Kustom amps (I love the old Chanute KS models for modding).  Overall, I am impressed with the XD.  I can certainly understand your appreciation of this great amp. 

"Oops" ... the girl is cute but kind of geeky.

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## Ed Goist

Rayne; thanks for the suggestion.

Upgrading to the Telefunken Smooth Plate ECC83 seems like a great upgrade, and I may try that after I've gotten to know the amp, and gotten it broken in. Would I need to get the amp re-biased after a modification like this?

Anyways, I'm both excited and a little leery to be going to an entirely new axe/amp combination (Old: JBovier EMC-4 / Line 6 Spider III 75. New: Ryder EM-44 / Fender Super Champ XD), so I want to get to know the new equipment well before making any changes or mods.

However, I will say that I doubt I'll be changing the speaker in the Fender SCXD. Frankly, both times I've demo'ed the SCXD, I have been remarkably impressed by the stock 10" speaker Fender uses in these. I think the speaker is very well voiced for the amp.

But who knows?...Nothing is etched in stone...After all, it's only Rock-n-Roll!

Oh, and geeky is good!

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## Rayne

Ed:
There is certainly nothing wrong with leaving it stock.  I don't mod any of my own amps.  HA.  Crazy.  I have done dozens for other people, but I leave my own stock.  It takes the thrill out of it if I am doing it for myself.  Plus I don't get paid for my own work!
I would not mod anything during the warranty period!  That tends to make the company cranky.

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## Rodney Riley

> Crazy.  I have done dozens for other people,


http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...080#post989080 

See post #17

Hey Rayne, maybe you could work on an amp for this other Fort Collins player that Ed posted for us.. :Smile:

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## Rayne

Ed:
I should have added to always check with your tech before swapping out tubes.  Those EC's run a tad hotter.  I have never had an issue but you don't want to take the advice of a girl you don't know!  Being the electrical daughter of Frankenstein, I have cooked a few poor guinea pigs over the years in my search for sonic perfection.  Certainly don't mod anything during the warranty period.  That will void your warranty.

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## Ed Goist

No problem Rayne, but thanks for the follow-up.
I tend to be a very conservative and cautious person when it comes to my gear. 
Plus, the SCXD sounds so good to me, I would not consider modding it early on. 
I'm getting it because of how it sounds out of the box.
Changing the tubes might be something fun to try down the road though (after the warranty expires, like you suggest).
Thanks again.

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## mandopete

Ed - when you gonna pick it up?

Looking forward to hearing your review.

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## Ed Goist

Mandopete; here is my plan:

As soon as I get a firm delivery date from Steve Ryder on the EM-44 ('in progress' pics attached), I'll order the SCXD and a Rockbag mandolin gigbag from Dietz so that all three will arrive at just about the same time...I'm thinking that will be sometime in early-mid December?

I'll be sure to post a review of the SCXD with the EM-44, and post a video or two as well.

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## mandopete

Nice looking mando so far.  That's gonna be one nice set up!

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## Verne Andru

Sweet!

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## Ed Goist

Thanks very much folks! I've very excited about the Ryder.
Oh, by the way, the Holiday discounts have arrived...As of this morning multiple on-line vendors have reduced their pricing on the Fender Super Champ XD to $200! This makes the amp a stunning value (no financial interest on my part).
If you've been looking at one of these, now might be the time to take the plunge...
I should have mine in a week or so. :-)

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## Barry Wilson

I was looking at the fender G dec at first but the store guy showed me the mustang series. no backing tracks to jam with but more power. I can always make my own backing tracks. still a cool little amp. 

love long and mcquade. I like to rent stuff to try out often. bring it home, thrash it and if I want to keep it, call them and say to toss on my account. 

that em-44 is going to look nice. gotta love the tigering

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## Verne Andru

Anyone serious about buying a SC XD, Victor Litz has a used on on their sale flyer for something like 50% off $250. I've purchased from them before and was quite satisfied.

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## mandopete

Nice

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## Ed Goist

> Ed - when you gonna pick it up?
> Looking forward to hearing your review.


Well, my SCXD was delivered yesterday, after being purchased on Thanksgiving through Amazon.com. Incredible service. So, I've now spent a couple hours playing my Telecaster through the Super Champ XD, and here are some initial observations:

* In the owners' manual, under their description of the voice channel knob on this amp, Fender warns, _"Use the extreme flexibility of the Voice knob wisely! Treble harshness or boomy bass tones can be avoided by using the right guitar settings and playing style for a particular amp voicing."_ *This is wise advice!* After about 20 minutes of playing and adjusting to the amp's various settings, I finally discovered how to control and harness the nuances of the low gain channels, and the aggression of the high gain channels. When playing through the modeled high gain channels, conservative settings for the gain, both tone controls, and the effect level can make all the difference.

* The effect of the instrument's volume & tone controls on the overall character of the tone through this amp are substantial and much more obvious than with my previous amp. Although this makes "dialing in" a desired tone a little more complex (two more knobs to find settings for), the rewards can be substantial. For example, on one of the high gain channels (#12 I think) with the gain fairly high, there was a very narrow sweet spot that I found as I potted-down the volume on the Telecaster. Too much Tele volume, and the distortion was muddy, too little Tele volume, and the dirt and power all but vanished. However, when I hit that sweet spot on the Telecaster volume knob just right...Bingo!...it was _'Texas Grit Time'_! Awesome! (For those who aren't comfortable regularly working the instrument's volume knob while playing, maybe a good volume pedal would be a smart addition?)

* The clean channel on this amp is simply fantastic, with its warm, clear, classic tube tone. Also, that channel provides even more flexibility and possible sound options to the amp if one runs pedals into it.

* The 10" speaker for this amp is perfectly voiced for the application in my opinion. It provides great tone even at a fairly high volume, and the precision of the speaker helps one to moderate the gain and dirt of the high gain channels.

* Although this amp clearly does not have the overall punch of my previous amp (75W solid state), it is surprisingly powerful and loud for a 15W amp.

* In my opinion the DSP effects on this amp are all quite good, at all volume levels. Moreover, the fact that the amp has an X/F Level knob adds even more versatility. For example, _'Concert Hall Reverb'_ set on 4 is a quite different effect from _'Concert Hall Reverb'_ on 10.

Finally, the small size of this amp, its modest weight, its classic look, and its intuitive and easy to use controls, make it a joy to own and operate! I'm really looking forward to trying the new Ryder through it!

*Excellent +.*

I'll update here after playing the e-mando through the SCXD.

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## MandoSquirrel

> ...
> 
> * The 10" speaker for this amp is perfectly voiced for the application in my opinion. It provides great tone even at a fairly high volume, and the precision of the speaker helps one to moderate the gain and dirt of the high gain channels.
> ...
> * Although this amp clearly does not have the overall punch of my previous amp (75W solid state), it is surprisingly powerful and loud for a 15W amp....


Good review, Ed.
I just read something in the last couple of days regarding amp power; here's the link: http://www.myrareguitars.com/how-muc...ower-do-i-need

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## mandopete

Nice review, thanks Ed!

So I'm down to a choice between the SCXD and the Mustang III.  I will probably have to wait until after the Christmas season as funds are at an all time low.   :Frown: 

_* The effect of the instrument's volume & tone controls on the overall character of the tone through this amp are substantial and much more obvious than with my previous amp._

Spent some quality time last night with my beat-up ol' Champ and decided it's not so bad after all.  I was thinking about how I never used to use the volume knob on the guitar, but noticed how many of the amps I looked at seem to react very differently to the gain adjustment comming from the guitar itself.  The eMando (Mann) has a couple of really nice pickups (Dimarzio and GFS) and the volume knob does make quite a bit of difference in how the amp reacts.

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## Ed Goist

For those interested, here is a pretty special 1966 Vox UL730 expected to go for about a 100 Grand.  :Smile:

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## Michael H Geimer

This thread is sucking me in! My old amp was a Princeton Reverb and it had a sweet tone. A buddy still has his Virbo Champ. I have no idea where my Bassman 4x10 'evaporated' to amid various bands/moves/life-stuff (last left with a bass player, so in good hands, probably still kicking around).

Only thing I didn't like at the time about Fender combos was the lack of channels/effects (though I think a bit differently about those features now). I could never enjoy the volumes needed to coax tube distortion from a Fender (especially a Twin Reverb!)

My local store has these, so I'm heading downtown for a test (over)drive. #cannotbelieveimpluggingin

 - Benig

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## mandopete

> This thread is sucking me in!  
>  - Benig


Yeah, hard to believe ain't it?  We thought we were done with this when we switched to acoustic, but nooooooo.....

Check out the thread on pedals over the emando section.

 :Disbelief:

----------


## MandoSquirrel

It's disgusting. I've already bought an electric guitar & a Fender Blues Junior amp, & now I'm awaiting delivery of a vintage amp, to see if it will replace the Fender, and I keep wondering how soon I can get the emando!

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## Jim Hilburn

When it comes to amps around my house, there's no mandolin content, but I was just playing the SCXD tonight and it just continues to amaze.
I built my Tele with a Strat middle and humbucker neck and Bigsby. Playing the clean channel at low volume is so warm and thick. But pre-set #8 is unbelievable to me. It's not like your getting some emulation effect at all. You get all the harmonic complexity you would expect from a GOOD loud cranked tube amp at low volume. One old trick is to hold the peghead of the guitar on the cabinet to get a feedback loop. This would work on very loud tube amps to get a lot of psycho feedback, but this will do it at such a low volume. Tons of fun!

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## Ed Goist

Jim; thank you very much for turning me on to the SCXD. I completely agree with you...I think it's incredible.
I also agree that channel 8 is amazing...as are 3, 9, and 13 (do we see a pattern developing here  :Grin: )
Oh, and check out this demo...This guy uses your peghead feedback trick with his Tele while playing on channel 14! 
Very cool.

----------


## Verne Andru

Anyone interested in a SCXD, they're on sale here for $190:

http://altomusic.com/shop/Fender-Sup...-_pid105792.am

If you have the patience you may be able to get M123 to do their 110% price match which would bring it down to $178.00.

Sweetwater has the footswitch for 19.99 -- M123 does a price match for $19.23 or something like that.

And Amazon has the Vibro Champ XD for $150:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B001J1JRN0

----------


## mandopete

What is the differnce between the Champ and the Vibro Champ (other than the price) ?

Vibro Champ
Product Features
5 watts 
One 8", 4-ohm Special Design Speaker 
One Channel 
Controls: Gain, Volume, Voice, Treble, Bass, FX Level, FX Select 
5 watts, One Channel 
It controls Gain, Volume, Voice, Treble, Bass, FX Level, FX Select. 
A 4-ohm Special Design Speaker that is One 8". 

Super Champ XD
Product Features
15 watts (Class "AB") 
One 10", 8-ohm Special Design Speaker 
Two Channels (Normal and Amp Voice) 
Controls: Volume 1, Channel Select Switch, Gain, Volume 2, Voice, Treble, Bass, FX 
Level, FX Select

----------


## Ed Goist

Fender has officially replaced the Super Champ XD with the *Super Champ X2* line (a combo & a head are offered). It looks like the new model has most of the same features as the SCXD, but also has a tap tempo control for the delay effect, USB connectivity and access to Fuse software.

* Here is the Fender page for the SCX2 Combo 
* Here is the Fender page for the SCX2 Head _(note: this page has been on and off line since it went live [I'm guessing Fender is tweaking the content])_

Frankly I'm glad I got in on a "plain old Super Champ XD" when I did. While they last, they are a killer deal at $199! (NFI).

The new model seems to be a move further away from the world of the all-tube amp. I'd say this product change by Fender is an interesting and telling decision from a marketing standpoint. Thoughts?

----------


## Elliot Luber

I have the Vox VT 30 and think the overdrive quality is terrible. I'm very disappointed with it. I played the Superchamp above, and am thinking of a switch at some point.

----------


## mandroid

Companies think a rock distortion sound, favored by the kids, 
 :Wink:  is where the main buyers are ..

----------


## Jeffff

I don't know if I am too late or if it's been mentioned but youmight want to look into the Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue. I have never used in with a mandolin, but it loves every guitar I have ever plugged in. 

There is no distortion channel, you just let the power tubes sweat and it offers a lovely grind. I typically set the volume at 7 and then roll down the guitar to clean it up. It is also responds very dynamically to picking style. 

The only down side is even though it's rated at 22 watts it is still way loud. I use a THD hot plate with it.

----------


## Lee

Some people only want the amp to amplify their instrument and don't appreciate how tube amps become part of their instrument.  I'm playing a 4-string Schwab tuned CGDA.  I've found it rare for a high-pitched E string to retain the same tonality than the others when amped. My recent favorite is a Swart Atomic Space Tone II. Pricey but worth it with built in reverb and tremolo effects. Interesting too with a completely bypassable tube stage volume knob.  It's a 20-watt that can use 6V6, 6L6, or EL-34 tubes. Plus the pre-amp tubes can be switched to change whether a cleaner or more broken-up tone is prefered. 
I'd love to check out their 5-watt model STR!

----------


## Ed Goist

> ...snip...My recent favorite is a Swart Atomic Space Tone II. Pricey but worth it with built in reverb and tremolo effects. Interesting too with a completely bypassable tube stage volume knob.  It's a 20-watt that can use 6V6, 6L6, or EL-34 tubes. Plus the pre-amp tubes can be switched to change whether a cleaner or more broken-up tone is prefered....snip...


Swart Amplifier Co. Atomic Space Tone.

...Is there a drooling emoticon? Well, I need one!

----------


## Jim Hilburn

From a review in Vintage Guitar. 15 w intended for acoustic or archtop. Only $2495.
Looks like you should be able to play an LP on it. And I don't mean Les Paul.

----------


## Lee

If a really small wattage is wanted the Epiphone Junior 5-watt amp is easy to find and inexpensive. All it has is one volume knob. I bought the head and plug it into a 12" speaker, sounds great.  (Sorry, I've not learn how to post a website.)

----------


## Verne Andru

Here's a couple new Fenders for 2012 to toss into the mix:

Pawn Shop Special Excelsior Amp 2x6V6 power section, 15" speaker w/tremolo $299.99 MAP


Pawn Shop Special Greta Amp 12AT7 power section, 4" speaker $199.99 MAP

----------


## Bob Borzelleri

> Here's a couple new Fenders for 2012 to toss into the mix:
> 
> Pawn Shop Special Excelsior Amp 2x6V6 power section, 15" speaker w/tremolo $299.99 MAP
> 
> 
> Pawn Shop Special Greta Amp 12AT7 power section, 4" speaker $199.99 MAP


I was about to casually pass on by these new Fender offerings until I saw the reference to the Accordion input.  Now that's a feature that's have been longing for. :Chicken:

----------


## Ed Goist

My new Ryder EM-44 e-mando has dramatically demonstrated how much a great instrument with premium pick-ups can enhance an amp. The moment I plugged my Ryder into my Fender Super Champ XD the amp became a different (and much more predatory  :Smile:  ) animal. Every channel (most especially the clean channel) on the Super Champ sounds significantly better with the Ryder than it did with my Standard Telecaster.

----------


## Verne Andru

> I was about to casually pass on by these new Fender offerings until I saw the reference to the Accordion input.  Now that's a feature that's have been longing for.


It's a funny nod to the retro vibe. All they've done [taking from what they did in the past] is put extra resistors on one of the inputs to drop the signal level for instruments that run pretty hot - like an accordion. I recently picked up a 60's tube amp with a guitar and a bass input. Electronically the only difference is there are extra resistors on the bass input. This provides for a cleaner signal as you're not driving the first preamp stage as hard.

----------


## Verne Andru

I'm liking the idea of the Excelsior - sounds like a Deluxe with a 15" speaker at a realistic price.

----------


## Michael H Geimer

I think I said so in a different thread, but I got a SCXD for X-mas. I'm *really happy* with this box. I don't have anything to add to Ed's good review. I took his advice to play around with all the controls, especially the instrument's controls, as they make for big changes in the tone.

I've brought it along a couple times now to an acoustic jam with friends and found the SCXD  blends quite well with acoustic instruments. The SCXD was warm and full without poking out harshly, again using the instrument's volume knob to dull the 'hotness' of the pickups helped this all work out. 

Disclaimer: All comments based on a Squire (Affinity) Strat (doesn't even say "caster" ???) as I'm e-mandoless until the right 5-stringer comes my way.

 - Benig

----------


## Ed Goist

Okay, after 6 very happy months of playing through my Fender Super Champ XD amp, I've decided to add a 'true' all-tube combo amp to my gear. Specifically, I'm looking for an EL84 powered, easily portable combo amp with a good 12"+ speaker. I'll be playing mostly classic rock, blues, and psychedelic into this amp, through my GDAE tenor guitars and my Telecaster. 

Here's my current short-list of possible amps, with some pros and cons listed for each:

1. Blackheart 15W Handsome Devil Combo - $450
Pros: Played one, loved it! (see this post to this thread); nice price; 15W/7W switchable; I'll be able to buy it from a small, local, brick-and-mortar shop I really like.
Cons: Made in China, no reverb (I'll need yet another pedal  :Grin: )

2. Carvin 'Vintage 16' - $480
Pros: US built, nice price, LOVE the look (especially love having the knobs on the front of the amp), only 31 Lbs.
Cons: Never played or even heard one in person

3. Peavey Delta Blues 115 - $649
Pros: Incredible tone & reputation, US built, 30W, effects loop, nice tremolo & reverb
Cons: 30W (_'sonic & volume overkill'_ for my purposes? Will I be able to get decent tone at very low volumes?), more expensive than other choices, heavy (50 lbs.)

I'm sure you've noticed the absence of the Blues Junior from my short-list. Well, I've decided I want to go with a more unique option...Everyone plays Fenders!  :Smile: 

So, I'd be love to hear any opinions regarding these choices. Thanks much.

----------


## rico mando

you should definitely buy all 3 .

----------


## foldedpath

If you're buying your second tube amp on the journey to ubertone, then why be a piker? You're ready for a boutique amp now, right?
 :Wink: 

Forget those choices. Get a Carr Mercury. Here's a good dealer (sit down, before looking at the prices), and check out that version in gator black... yumm:

http://willcuttguitars.com/amps/carr-amplifiers

I tell 'ya, if I was still into electric playing (and didn't already have an old Rivera Sedona to play with), I'd have one of these Mercury amps for sure. If you need more volume, just stick a mic on it. All the cool cats will dig it. It's just money, right? A small price to pay for tone.
 :Grin:

----------


## almeriastrings

Not sure what the availability is like in the US, but currently, I think Hughes & Kettner are making some really lovely stuff in Germany. The 20W Statesman (dual EL84) is excellent:

http://www.hughes-and-kettner.com/pr...%20DUAL%20EL84

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/ampli...ontent=reviews

They can be hard to find... but are are very versatile. Can go from dirty to super-clean and are _really_ well put together.

----------


## lukmanohnz

I'd highly recommend auditioning a Fender Blues Jr. before making your final decision.  This is one of my favorite EL84 combos.  And if you can find a used Marshall JCM2000 DSL-201 that's another winner (and my main amp).  The DSL-401s are easier to find and were more highly rated due to their additional wattage and boost function, but the 201 is all the amp I've needed for most jams and gigs.

----------


## journeybear

> Swart Amplifier Co. Atomic Space Tone.
> 
> ...Is there a drooling emoticon? Well, I need one!


Here ya go! Not an emoticon, exactly, but a fair response to some of the gear mentioned here.  :Wink:

----------


## dcoventry

Yeah, i got this one.

----------


## Ed Goist

> If you're buying your second tube amp on the journey to ubertone, then why be a piker? You're ready for a boutique amp now, right?
> 
> 
> Forget those choices. Get a Carr Mercury. ...snip...


My core objective here is to have a nice sounding 6L6/6v6 amp (like my SCXD) AND a nice sounding EL34/84 amp for a combined investment of ~$1,000.
Seeing and hearing stuff like this is not helping my _"budget setting sensibilities"_  :Redface:  ...
Love the clean 8W tone, and that overdriven 1/2 W setting at the end!
..._Look away sir, look away!_  :Whistling:

----------


## JMUSIC

Modded with Jensen Cannibas Rex and Accutronics reverb tank. LTD Edition, seafoam green Blues Jr.

----------


## lukmanohnz

Well, as long as the discussion has veered into not-helpful territory, here's some additional non-helpful information.  If I had an unlimited budget and could buy any 6L6/6v6 amp on the planet, one of these would be high on my list.

----------


## Mark Seale

If we're being less than helpful on the budget front, you can do no better: http://www.alessandro-products.com/amps.html

----------


## mtucker

> If we're being less than helpful on the budget front, you can do no better: http://www.alessandro-products.com/amps.html


Here's my Alessandro Red Bone Special with matching flamed maple and rosewood 4x10 cab.

----------


## Mark Seale

> Here's my Alessandro Red Bone with matching flamed maple and rosewood 4x10 cab.


That's a tasty setup.

----------


## mtucker

> That's a tasty setup.


Thanks, Mark. it rattles the entire first floor of the house on 6!  :Grin:  Here's a pic of it from George's website when it was a newb several years ago.. the amp and cab has aged very nicely. it's a killer rig.

----------


## Ed Goist

> Not sure what the availability is like in the US, but currently, I think Hughes & Kettner are making some really lovely stuff in Germany. ...snip...
> They can be hard to find... but are are very versatile. Can go from dirty to super-clean and are _really_ well put together.


Really interesting you should mention Hughes & Kettner...
Just after you posted this, a very lightly used Hughes & Kettner 25th Anniversary Edition Tube Combo showed-up on my regional craigslist search. The price and condition of the amp both seemed very good, so I took the hour drive today to check it out.
Well, after playing through this amp for about 5 minutes, I knew I'd be buying it! 
I got her home, got her set-up in my music room, and gave her a good workout...Wow - Sounded even better!
Here are some initial observations:
* The amp's 20 watts is ideal for my needs and applications.
* Both channels sound excellent. The clean channel is particularly full, warm, and rich.
* The clean channel loves my pedals! Frankly, I can't believe how good they sound through this amp.
* The closed back of the combo's cabinet, and the voicing of the 12" Celestion G12T-100 speaker, combine to offer a superb, low-end-rich character to the amp's tone.
* The lead channel crunches just fine at low volume. 
* The 3 EQ controls (shared between the channels) offer a wide swing of tonal footprints.
* The Accutronics spring reverb offers a nice range of reverb depth (especially from about 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock).
* This thing is built like a tank.
* At about 41 pounds, it is a little too big to be easily hauled around...(I'll definitely be keeping the Super Champ as a travel amp).
All-in-all, I think this is going to be exactly the amp I was looking for.
Thanks to all for the suggestions.

----------


## almeriastrings

Ed, that was fortuitous indeed!

These are a wonderful amp. Several cuts above your typical 'mass market' offerings. I am kind of surprised they are not better known as they can hold their heads up alongside just about anything in my experience. Years ago I used to have an early 60's Fender Twin reverb... back in my Telecaster days! I still have a Tele, and I dig it out now and again. I had long sold (to my regret) that old Twin, and I also got the chance to land a H&K Quad EL34 a year or two back. That's the 40w model. I have the tan finish version. This one:

http://hughes-and-kettner.com/produc...%20QUAD%20EL84

It is a beast - with a lot of tones, from grungy dirty to crystal clear. Lent it to a friend of mine here who does a lot of Chet Atkins and Dire Straits type stuff  after his  own amp died, and he was totally blown away by it. Now looking for one himself. I had a hard time getting it back!!!! All I can say is it is so good that I don't miss the old twin any more. They really are a first class amp. I suspect you got a fantastic deal there.. as they are quite rare and not at all easy to find.

----------


## MacStevenXIII

I have a 67 Bassman that I had a custom cabinet made for, now it's a 2x10 combo. Little too much for my mando. 
It's little brother the Gretsch G5222, after a few mods, makes a decent low wattage tube amp for mandolin playing. I added an 8" weber speaker, changed out the grillcloth and tubes.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Has anyone actually messed with the Fender Excelsior amp listed early on in this thread?

----------


## Mark Seale

> Thanks, Mark. it rattles the entire first floor of the house on 6!  Here's a pic of it from George's website when it was a newb several years ago.. the amp and cab has aged very nicely. it's a killer rig.


she's a beauty.  A good friend of mine runs his Allessandro through a Fusco cabinet for his main jazz rig.  The tone is rich and buttery, you could swim in it.

----------


## mtucker

> she's a beauty.  A good friend of mine runs his Allessandro through a Fusco cabinet for his main jazz rig.  The tone is rich and buttery, you could swim in it.


i'm sure it sounds great, Mark. George is a talented guy. My cab has 4x10 Celestion Alnico's, really nice and creamy at lower volumes...and if you need to scratch an itch, it transforms into a beast.  :Wink:  Gerald Weber makes some nice amps in your neck of the woods. I have a low watt from him that i really like.

----------


## Ed Goist

> Really interesting you should mention Hughes & Kettner...
> ...snip...a very lightly used Hughes & Kettner 25th Anniversary Edition Tube Combo showed-up on my regional craigslist search. The price and condition of the amp both seemed very good, so I took the hour drive today to check it out.
> Well, after playing through this amp for about 5 minutes, I knew I'd be buying it! 
> I got her home, got her set-up in my music room, and gave her a good workout...

----------


## Ed Goist

> Here's a couple new Fenders for 2012 to toss into the mix:
> 
> Pawn Shop Special Excelsior Amp 2x6V6 power section, 15" speaker w/tremolo $299.99 MAP
> 
> 
> Pawn Shop Special Greta Amp 12AT7 power section, 4" speaker $199.99 MAP


The infamous _"Gear Mann Dude"_ just posted a demo video for the Greta.
Sounds pretty tasty, especially through the 4 X 12. I love that gauge on the front!

----------


## nobullmando74

I use to own a Swart Atomic Space tone Pro. Man I miss that amp. Not that I can complain too much. My current amp is a 1964 Fender Deluxe Reverb. Yeh it shocks ya sometimes but man it sounds great.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Thanks Ed. The Pawn Shop Fender amps are looking real affordable.

----------


## Ed Goist

Pretty cool list:
_"10 Classic Guitar Amps & The Songs That Made Them Famous"_

----------


## MikeEdgerton

I stopped at a local music store at lunch today and they had an Excelsior amp in stock. Spent about an hour messing with it and pulled the trigger. I can't wait to get it home and play with it some more. First impression is that it's heavy as heck, well made, nice fit and finish, and that to my old ears it sounds good. It's about as basic as an amp can get. Reminds me of the stuff we had in the 60's when I first started playing. I'm excited... wait.... I'm stoked.

----------


## journeybear

OK, so after following this thread and some others and doing a bit of further research, I picked up a Fender Super Champ XD on ebay. The seller said it had never left his living room, a smoke-free environment. It is everything I wanted and more - lots of power and possibilities. Heck, I hardly ever run it higher than 4 on the gain and volume. Coupled with the Ryder EM-44 it has been an outstanding improvement in my sound. Real happy with it.

_Just one thing,_ a pretty big one. It produces a horrible crackling, like radio static, intermittently, for 30-45 minutes after turning it on. It does this irrespective of the volume control. It will build in volume, then suddenly stop, only to build again soon after. The only thing that affects this (other than time) is a good hard slap to the cabinet - not all the time, but most of the time, and I doubt this is really that good for it. The way this builds and stops makes me think capacitor. I contacted the seller, who said he had never noticed this, and suggested checking the tubes - perhaps they had come a bit loose in shipping. One had indeed, but that didn't solve this. And of course the trial period had already passed. So far all I have been able to do is get to the gig early enough to let it warm up or whatever beyond the aforementioned time frame (not always possible). Since this is going through a PA via the line out, it is really annoying, and I have to be ready to attend to it fast - either hitting it  or turning either the PA channel down or the amp off and on - which can be unsettling, especially if it strikes n the middle of a quiet song.

Any ideas as to cause and solution? Thanks!

----------


## Michael H Geimer

I heard a similar crackling sound with Super Champ XD. I found I could affect this sound by tapping the cabinet. Figuring it might just be a too loosely seated tube, I used a cloth to firmly push each tube into its socket. Cracking gone. In fact I totally forgot about that episode until just now.

----------


## Verne Andru

2 things come to mind - properly seated tubes and/or a bad solder joint somewhere on the board.

For the first I pull the tubes [1 at at time so they don't get mixed up], spray inside the socket and the legs of the tube with electronics contact cleaner - the zero residue type - then push the tube in and out of the socket 3 or 4 times. This works off any grime that might be causing an intermittent connection. This is the most likely scenario IME.

If its the second then I trust you have some sort of warranty cause you're not going to be able to do much about it.

Contact cleaner is available for under $10 in a spray can from most electronics places - Radio Shack comes to mind. You can use isopropanol alcohol in a pinch as long as it doesn't leave any residue.

----------


## journeybear

Thanks guys. The tubes aren't loose, but there could well be some residue on the tubes or in the sockets. I got this used (good old ebay) so no warranty, no idea (other than what the seller told me) of its history. Dontcha know my can of compressed air just recently ran out. Still not sure why it would respond to a good well-timed slap, but it does. I plugged it in, let it do its thing for a half hour - mostly just crackle, with two volume increases then snap to silence - and after a half hour gave it a slap and it's been quiet ever since. I appreciate this consstency - at least this method seems reliable - but I would much rather solve the problem once and for all. Some day it may not respond as is its custom, which would be a real drag. It may know I'm the boss, but it keeps acting up. And that just ain't right!

----------


## Verne Andru

Could be a bum tube as well. The only way to test the tubes is to replace each, one at a time. The good news is there are not many tubes in that amp. You could try this next if cleaning the sockets doesn't work.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

JB, contact cleaner and compressed air are two different animals.

----------


## Jim Hilburn

My SCXD does the crackle too. But it goes away.

----------


## journeybear

Mike - yes, I know that. It's just that I don't even have _that_ to try, so a trip to Radio Shack is in order.

----------


## Ed Goist

Journeybear, you've probably already done this, but if not, be sure to Google _Fender Super Champ XD crackle_. Lots of forum hits will turn up.
Since it stops when you whack the cabinet, I'm guessing it's a bad tube or a faulty tube connection.
Keep us posted.

----------


## journeybear

Well, that made for some interesting reading. Gearheads!  :Disbelief:  I did what several suggested - tap each tube to see if it caused a coincidental crackle - nope. That implies the tubes are OK. So the next step is to go through it with contact cleaner. And so far, as long as I get to the gig early enough and plug it in early enough so it can go through its cycle before we start, it's OK. Not perfect or resolved, but OK.  :Wink:

----------


## Ed Goist

I talked to a friend of mine who is a radio engineer about this, and in addition to checking the tube pins for tight and clean connection, he also suggested checking the power chord by wiggling it near where it goes into the amp to see it there is a bad connection there. 

He said the chord was probably low on the suspect list here since the crackle goes away when the amp warms up, but he said you should still check it because it is an easy diagnostic (the crackle will get worse when the plug is wiggled), and it's a very a common problem.

Keep us posted.

----------


## JimRichter

I may be wrong, but based on personal experience with some old Fender Super Reverbs I've had, it sounds like possibly a resistor.  I had a '66 Super that had a bad resistor on the plate of one of the preamp tubes.  Once the resistor warmed up, crackling went away.  I could also whack the amp and it would go away--for awhile.  If you've determined it's not a tube issue, it's leading toward a cap or resistor issue.  It could be filter caps going bad, though I would expect you'd hear something all the time as they're unable to filter the hum (though could be wrong).  You could do an internal inspection to see if there is anything disconnected.  I've done this before to see a resistor, cap, and wire lifted from the circuit board.

----------


## journeybear

Thanks for the tips. I'll take it apart and look through it. I am not fond of doing this sort of thing because after a certain point I am an unsteady ground and worry that not only do I not know enough about what I am doing, I could easily make things worse. And that threshold is a good bit lower than I would like.  :Wink:  Fortunately I have a friend who, before he devoted himself to playing bass, had a long career in electronics engineering. So if I get in over my head or just don't see anything, I'll see what he can find. BTW Jim, a couple gearheads at those boards I found through Ed's suggestion mentioned resistors, too. I've been thinking capacitor, the way it seems to build up a charge and discharge it when slapped - but then, electronics was the only F I got in college, and the reason I switched my major from physics.  :Whistling:

----------


## Verne Andru

Capacitors hum and resistors hiss. A poor solder joint on either will cause intermittent signal which will sound like crackle and static. I've had one instance where a cheap ceramic capacitor was causing crackling. Replaced it with a mica and the problem went away. Be forewarned, tracking down this sort of thing can be like the proverbial needle-in-the-haystack.

----------


## journeybear

I'm sure.  :Wink:  That's why all I'm going to do is give it the old once-over, see if anything is loose or otherwise obviously wrong, and if the problem persists, hand it off to my friend. If he doesn't find anything fairly easily, I guess I'll just live with it.  :Confused: 

BTW, something the gearheads went on at some length about was setting the bias. One went into quite a lot of detail, including a pic of the circuit board with the pot that had to be set for 40 milliamps (if I recall correctly; he was specific about being not 39 or 41). I don't care how foolproof you think your instructions are, in the hands of someone who isn't really hip to this stuff this is a road map to disaster.  :Frown:

----------


## Jim Hilburn

Let me re-surface this one with how my afternoon went.
We went to lunch at a place in the parking lot of a big north Denver Musicians Superstore that is having a store closing sale. All I wanted was a music stand light but of course was drawn to the guitar wall. There I saw the Fender X2 amp which is the replacement for the XD and asked if I could give it a try.
The sales guy said the effects are now models which I think is different than the XD. But the main feature I noticed is there's only one delay setting and a "tap" button that sets the delay speed, in other words you repeatedly tap the button and that sets the speed. So you have quite a bit more control over the delay time even though there's a learning curve to knowing just what speed you really want, especially when "Sweet Lil' Chile of Mine" is playing in the background.
 The distortion setting numbers are all different than the XD so that would take more time to figure out than I had. But it sounded very good to me.
 But what crossed my mine was that if you had 2 of these or this and an XD and you split your signal to them you would be able to solve the problem of of only one effect at a time and you would in effect have a 30w 2X10 that you could carry in in 2 trips.
The fire sale price was well under $300... but my wife was there!

----------

Ed Goist

----------


## Elliot Luber

Always a mistake to bring the wife to a music sale. Of course explaining your purchase later can be dangerous.  :Smile:

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## journeybear

I would have no problem bringing my wife, especially with my birthday coming right up - except I'm not married!  :Grin:  (I know, ladies; be still your hearts ...  :Whistling:  ... )

Anyway ...

My amp developed another problem - a power cut-out that manifests itself as a loud repetitive clicking noise eliminates the signal and also disables the indicator light between the two output channels. This was more detrimental than the crackling - that would go away after the warm-up period - since it was a complete signal loss. Powering off and on might correct it, but it might come back, without warning, nor apparent cause. This uncertainty, with an impending big gig hopefully opening up new territory for the band, led me to buy a new set of tubes. I didn't think it needed them, as the amp isn't that old, but I figured it couldn't hurt. Five hours before I had to leave for the show FedEx arrived with my package. Everything seemed fine, even the crackling was gone. At the show, the crackling was back, but the clicking stayed away. An unexpected side-effect appeared, though - the new tubes are much more active than the old ones, so I had to adjust my settings - in the middle of the show.  :Disbelief:  Add to that breaking a string on both the acoustic and electric, plus dealing with a drunken stage-rusher, this was far from my best gig.  :Frown:  

But this is still is manageable - or was, until last night. It was an odd night that included the PA power amp overheating and cutting out intermittently in two of our barn-burners, long songs with lots of verses and thus solos, on which I get to really rock out. The second time was our last song, and since the bass player and I both play through amps with line out signals through the PA. we could still be heard, albeit more softly. So we kept it going in a sort of rockabilly style until the mains came back on, when we would kick into high gear again - Doing this three or four times made it seem almost planned. But what really got me was that right at the end the clicking came back! I thought I had this solved!  :Crying:  

Does anyone have any idea what is causing this and can offer solutions? I'm getting fed up. I wish I'd got a new amp instead of one off ebay, and even though that is probably what I should do, even now, I'm probably going to spend a little more time there looking for another one before I'll be able to talk myself into biting the bullet and shelling out for a new one. Oh wait - did I mention my birthday is next week?  :Smile:

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## Polecat

Happy next week, Journeybear!
Not knowing what kind of Amp you're using, and where that indicator lamp is drawing its power (that is a very helpful clue to diagnosing the problem!), I can't give you any very useful advice except to suggest that you take it to a competent tech sooner rather than later, if you are happy with the sound the amp is giving you. One scenario that could produce the symptoms you describe, for example, is that the control grid capacitor on one of your power amp valves is going bad - if it becomes conductive to DC, you will get the b+ voltage of the previous stage applied to the grid with possible arcing to the cathode which will damage further components, and, if you're unlucky, charge the whole casing of your amp, which is potentially lethal. It could be leaky smoothing capacitors in the b+ supply (though I doubt it), too, endangering the output transformer, the most expensive component in the amp. And so on. Problems with electronics rarely fix themselves, and, where high voltages are concerned, they generally get worse. As I say, if you're happy with your sound, get it fixed - it should not be as expensive as buying a new amp, with which you might not be any happier. If you are not satisfied with your tone, you have an excellent excuse to go get a new toy, and its nearly your birthday!

the polecat

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## journeybear

It's a Fender Super Champ XD, fairly new, that I got off ebay. I understand these have been discontinued, replace by the X2, with a few more bells and whistles. I don't think there is a bonafide tech here, so I talk to a friend who retired from a career in electronics and is now a bass player here. He has been giving me good advice so far, but now thinks he has gone as far as he can without the equipment he thinks he would need to fix it, or even diagnose it. He also thought it might be a capacitor. There is a new music store in town, so I will talk to them.

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## Verne Andru

On the XD, here's something to consider before running off to a tech [which will cost anywhere from $80 to $150 per hour].

I would try to determine if the problem is in the pre-amp or power-amp section. The reason being the pre-amp is 1 or more integrated PCB's prolly with a proprietary DSP for the modeling and would be near impossible for a bench tech to repair. They could board-swap if they could isolate the faulty board and get spares [which a Fender service center should be fine with]. If it is the power-amp section, there may be some trouble-shooting options available to most bench tech's.

These amps apparently have a Line Out and a Speaker Out. If this amp is consistent with others, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be, they'll be taking the Line Out signal after the pre-amp and before the power-amp, which allows you some level of signal isolation.

So, plug in an instrument as usual and take a signal from your Line Out jack. If you are still getting the problems, then the issue is with the pre-amp and an authorized Fender warranty repair depot is about the only way to deal with it. If the problem goes away, then your pre-amp should be fine and the issue is prolly in the power section.

But with the rock-bottom price of amps these days it may still be cheaper to just get a different amp and eat the loss as a lesson learned.

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## journeybear

Well, I get the problem whether or not I'm using line out - yes at band gigs, no at solo gigs. When this first started happening (band gig) I ended up bypassing the uncooperative amp and putting my signal straight into the board, which of course meant a much less full-throated sound, albeit reliable. At solo gigs I have the luxury of time - I can wait a little bit for the thing to settle down and interact with the audience meanwhile - which I don't at band gigs. I'm bringing the amp in tomorrow to see if the tech can at least diagnose the problem. I may print up some of the advice you guys have been so kind to offer to see if that gives him ideas he may not have thought of. What would really help would be if I could at least reproduce the condition at will, so the tech could see and hear it. So far it occurs randomly. Actually, what would really help would be for the problem to just dry up and blow away!

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## jim simpson

I no longer own an electric mandolin but use a small Fender Princeton Reverb that is a favorite for plugging in various configured electric guitars. 
I used to own and play through a blacktop Fender Super Reverb. It was way too heavy to carry back then, I wish I would have gone smaller with good mic use.

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## journeybear

So I took the amp in, explained in full gory detail the problems, and left it with the tech. In just a couple of hours I got the call that it was fixed. He said it just need cleaning - a rather intensive thorough cleaning, mind you, one that I would have felt a bit out of my depth doing. He checked every contact and cleaned each one, and also found the output power transformer was a little loose. But now the crackling is gone, the power cut-out seems a thing of the past, and it only cost $35. (The price of a high end pick.) I'm very pleased with this all in all - the quick turnaround, the price, and above all the solution. It's quieter all around, even in idle mode, even the overdriven effects, which used to make a loud hum as I switched voices, or in between songs. So it appears I didn't need to swap out the tubes after all, and will probably put the old ones back in. They seemed a bit warmer. That's my fun project for the weekend - comparing the two sets. Well, at least I'll have spares if I ever need them.  :Wink:

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Ed Goist

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## rico mando

I believe tubes have a break in period  . something to consider before changing them .if it works maybe you should leave it for a while before changing things in case an issue reappears . unless you are doing some studio work and you want to have your best sound

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## Polecat

That's really good news, Journeybear, and goes to show, in my opinion, that it's generally worth asking an "expert". I used to have a Carlsbro Cobra 90 keyboard amp which I used as a mini P.A. as it had 3 inputs so I could connect both my mandolin and a Microphone to it. I had bought it used very cheap, and after about a year it seemed to give up the ghost, producing absolutely no sound. I took it to a tech, and it turned out that the effects route was serially placed between slave and preamp, and the signal always passed through the "effect out" jack socket, which was corroded. A little rub with emery paper was all that was required to get the thing working again.
As regards "breaking in" valves - it's a myth! vaccuum tubes are relatively simple devices which continually degrade from the time you first plug them in until they stop working, either because the cathode coating has broken up or the "getter" layer is no longer able to absorb the air that leaks into the enclosure (no valve is completely airtight). Your old valves probably sound warmer because they are somewhat more degraded, which is normal. If I'm correctly informed, the Fender XD is automatically biased so you can switch valves without any worries (if I'm wrong, I hope Verne Andru will correct me).
It's possibly a little pedantic, but I think it's a good idea to differentiate between solid-state, tube and hybrid amps - I presumed, since the thread is named "Tube Amp", that it dealt with purely tube amps, the Fender XD, from what Verne Andru writes, is a hybrid, and therefore what I wrote before is partially rubbish. I do not understand solid-state electronics, having only ever played around with valve amps, which, despite their lethal voltages, lend themselves more to experimentation as you don't have to be able to do impossible maths to modify them (which, in my opinion is well worth trying if you want to amplify a mandolin signal with a circuit that has been designed for a different purpose, and is therefore almost certain to produce sub-optimal results).

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## journeybear

Yes, I am all in favor of simple solutions to (apparently) complex problems. Very pleased this is all it needed, not just for my sake, but for that of my faith in ebay, and my ability to be a judge of character, while I'm at it. That is, I'm glad the seller wasn't trying to pawn off a lemon. And yes, I hadn't thought of it that way, but it is a hybrid - tubes and solid state - though I'm pretty sure a big part of its sound comes from the tubes.

Speaking of which - my thinking is that since swapping the tubes out wasn't the solution - so they are probably still good - and I preferred the sound of the old tubes anyway, I will go back to them. I spent some time researching tubes, at gearhead boards and a couple of online stores, trying to get an impression of what each brand's characteristics are. Quite something to read through all this stuff, especially from people who have tried a bunch of them and will swear up and down about the distinctions among them. I went with Tung-Sol, as they seemed popular and moderately priced. They are more lively and crisper than The Fender tubes, and warmth and subtlety are what I'm looking for most of the time. The amp has a few voices that give me a good crunch when needed, so it really covers all the bases.

Then it's on to cleaning up the Morley Volume Wah. Dust, humidity, salt air - they wreak havoc on gear, especially something like that with optical parts.

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## Verne Andru

Love happy endings - enjoy your now working amp journeybear!

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## Polecat

Decided today to put my money where my mouth is and post a recording of my 15 Watt mandolin tube amp. For anyone who is interested, it has 2 ECC83s and 2 EL84s (also a tube rectifier, but I've forgotten what I used and am too lazy to take the thing apart to look). The first system of the first ECC83 is set up to slightly distort at full volume from my mandolin. The gain pot sits between the first and second systems, the tone controls (standard fender circuit) are between the second and third systems, and the fourth system is the phase splitter. The EL84s are running in A/B with an automatic bias. The amp sounds best without the negative feedback loop common to all designs except the Vox AC30, I experimented with different loops and presence controls, but came to the conclusion, that I got the best results with a circuit that would probably make an electronic engineer weep. I also monkeyed with the values of the components in the tone control, trying to optimise the sound for my instrument, and it certainly does make an audible difference. I built the amp back in 1998, and have used it exclusively ever since for e-mando, it has never let me down, although I had to replace the first ECC83 (the sound got muddy).
Here's what it sounds like: http://soundcloud.com/user884622625/littlewing
I accompanied myself with a midi piano, and added a little reverb, apart from that, it's what the amp sounds like, turned about half way up. Hope you like it

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Ed Goist, 

Marty Jacobson

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## journeybear

So ... It seems this didn't really fix the amp after all.  :Frown:  Or maybe it did - temporarily - but the problem has reappeared, for no apparent reason. It was fine for a couple months - well, I assume so, though the band was on hiatus and I wasn't using it much, though when I did, it was fine. Then the last couple weeks it started with the white noise deal again, which responded promptly to the well-delivered whack. Then Monday it did the clicking/power-cutoff thing again  :Disbelief:  at our second post-hiatus gig, and nothing would get it to work.  :Crying:  I cleaned the tube connections at break, and that didn't fix it. I brought it into the shop, the guy went through it with De-Oxy again - and it didn't work, this time.  :Confused:  So it seems that whatever he did the last time, he just got lucky. Now they are talking about bringing it up to some store in Miami, which would probably cost another $100 or more. Plus time. I'm wondering whether I would be better off putting that money toward another amp instead. I wish we had a Sam Ash or Guitar Center or some such here, where I could try a few amps out to see if this make and model is really what I want or if there is something else more suitable. A few hundred bucks is probably not a whole lot to some folks, but I don't have that much to throw around. I'm going to take another look through this thread, maybe a few others, for ideas, but I thought I'd put my problem out there ASAP so people could warm up their thinking caps. Thanks!  :Mandosmiley:

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## mandroid

I had Vibro Champ  tube amp , it was not reliable to play out, after moving it,

 maybe the tube sockets  were just prone to losing contact.. 

I  sold it to someone who was going to play at home , so they were OK with that .

Thinking like a Mechanic, 
 maybe a quick spin of a 'rat-tail' needle file in each contact
 would scrape thru surface  corrosion..

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## Tom Wright

I would suspect the power supply, which could affect the indicator light. Or, it could be the switching circuit. In any case, if it responds to a whack you have bad solder joints somewhere. My understanding is that entire circuit boards are soldered by a hot gas bath, or some such technique. If temperatures drifted during manufacture the whole board could have defective solder joints. (I had to re-solder all the input jack pins in my Gallien-Krueger 200MV, finding them actually loose.) An amp guy recommended I have the circuit boards re-soldered on my Boogie, too, which I did, and had no problems.

I would re-solder every power supply and relay pin I could find, or ask your repair guy to do that. Mainly heating the connections up enough to soften the solder, but adding a bit of fresh solder is good, if there's room.

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## journeybear

That all sure sounds well-reasoned. Makes me want to print it and give to the fix-it guy. Or I should say, _supposed_ fix-it guy, because his capabilities seem limited. Just to be clear, I have had two issues with this amp: production of white noise, which builds slowly soon after powering up, and does respond immediately to a well-delivered whack/knock/rap; and clicking/power cutoff, which starts immediately after powering up, and does not respond to anything I've tried. The latter is the killer, takes it completely out of action.

 I went ahead and pulled the trigger on another amp, this time the seller is including the dust cover. I don't know if I can leave that on during use - it would be nice, as the venue's environment (outdoors, on the harbor, with nearly constant breeze whirling fine particles of coral dust as well as salt air) is almost surely a contributing factor. I am having a bit of buyer's remorse, wondering whether I jumped the gun, but I have some big gigs coming up week after next and can't mess around, even though I can barely afford this. Besides, I have a hard time believing the first one is a goner. I can't help feeling it's more circumstances making it difficult to repair than whatever is actually wrong with it. Sigh ...  :Frown:

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## mandopete

My 8 month old Fender Super Champ XD bit the dust last week.  The lights come on, but no sound on either channel.  Took it in yesterday to see if it can be fixed (or replaced) under warranty.

Stay tuned.

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## journeybear

Rooting for you! I'm beginning to wonder if these are too sensitive to be lugged around, played outdoors, and otherwise serve as a real gig amp, rather than a living room or studio amp. Wonder if this sort of behavior helped lead Fender to discontinue them. Wonder if I should have shopped for an X2 instead. Wonder what the folks at Fender and guitar boards have to say about all this. Reading through all that could take a while. See all y'all in a couple weeks ...  :Smile:

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## Verne Andru

It sounds like you got one with "issues." Everything is fixable. The real question is if it's the most cost-effective solution.

I'd recommend strongly [very strongly] against running any amp, particularly a tube amp, with a cover over it. Tube's and resistors emit heat and if you don't give that heat a way to escape it can start causing other problems.

Little known factiod: many of the satellites floating over our heads are running off tubes - the designers chose tubes because they provide a built-in heat source for the rest of the components.

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## Chip Booth

In my long experience with Fender tube amps (black and silverface only) the static that responds to a whack is usually a sign of leaky filter caps.  I have two them that I whack occasionally right now.

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## foldedpath

> Besides, I have a hard time believing the first one is a goner. I can't help feeling it's more circumstances making it difficult to repair than whatever is actually wrong with it. Sigh ...


I don't have a clue what's wrong with your amp, but I'd be more suspicious of the type of amp design, rather than just the circumstances of repair and diagnosis. 

Any amp that relies on a circuit board and DSP chips is going to be intrinsically harder to repair out of warranty than a basic, old-school tube amp with discrete components. If it's in warranty, an authorized Fender repair shop will just yank the circuit board and pop in a new one. Out of warranty, that kind of repair might be too expensive to justify keeping the amp alive. It can be devilishly hard to diagnose and fix problems with modern circuit designs and DSP chips, which is why he normal repair method is just yank-and-replace. 

The problems with your amp _might_ be on the hybrid tube side instead, but I suspect that your repair guy would have found anything like a bad cap or tube socket.

If you want the most reliable tube amp, I'd suggest staying away from anything with DSP chips, and, if possible, any surface-mount circuit board components. A 100% hand-wired amp is probably out of the budget, but those are usually the easiest to diagnose and fix by any amp tech who knows what they're doing. If you need the DSP stuff like virtual amp models, digital effects, etc., I think it's better to get that in a pedal and keep the amp itself clean and simple (and reliable). If the digital pedal goes south, you can just toss it and get another one. A good tube amp on the other hand, should last you a lifetime, even under some abuse like playing dockside, because it's easy to repair.

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## foldedpath

Regarding the salt air exposure.... I guess you could try building a portable shield that would sit around the amp without touching it, and allow some air circulation. But unless you're playing right at the water's edge with a stiff breeze, I can't imagine that being a primary factor in the amp's problems. 

One idea you might consider, is removing the amp chassis, removing the tubes, and giving the components a light spray of a good protectant like Boshield T-9 (not WD40!). That's a "spray wax" often used to protect components against corrosion and salt intrusion. Check with your amp tech first, though. I've used Boshield on marine electronics before, but I've never tried it on a guitar amp!

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## rico mando

> I'm beginning to wonder if these are too sensitive to be lugged around, played outdoors, and otherwise serve as a real gig amp, rather than a living room or studio amp.


these amps are mass produced in china for cheap . maybe 2 out of every 10 are lemons by my guess . I did some searching on other forums and the general consensus is if you get one that works proper, then it is nice for the money .  I read a few threads where people have bypassed the DSP to run straight to the tubes and speakers  and others have upgraded the speakers . 

either you bought a lemon or you were sold a lemon . sorry bro

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## journeybear

Yeah, sure seems that way. I wish I had played the snot out of it when I first got it so that the problem would have shown up while it was still in the return period. Hoping for a better behaving one this time, and I am definitely going to put it through its paces. The seller says it was used only in a recording studio and not very much. If this one works well, fine; if not, gonna have to find something else. I appreciate all the advice and info, and will try to put as much of that into action as I can. Very limited resources here.

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## generankin

I am contemplating stepping out of the cold to play blues on my Phoenix Deluxe (which arrived with a McIntryre Feather pickup).  I have a Bad Cat Hot Cat 30 guitar amp, through which the Phoenix sounded a little thin, so I acquired a used LR Baggs Para DI, which solved the 'thinness' right away.  Onliest problem is that the amp weighs 83#, which is far too much to drag around (besides, it gets _very_ loud), though it has gorgeous tone - and is nearly impossible to cause it to make ugly sounds.

So I have been looking at a 5 watt amp, a Bad Cat Mini II, which weighs a mere 34#.  Both have 12" speakers, both use 12AX7 tubes in the preamp stage (the bigger amp has more than one).  The bigger amp uses 2 EL34 power tubes, the smaller one a single EL84.  Both are beautifully built (all point-to-point wiring, no pc boards).

Generally speaking, my limited experience says that tube amps sound a whole lot louder than one'd expect, but not being able to actually try the smaller amp out, I throw this question to you folks:  any thoughts about its suitability for making the mando sufficiently audible with the usual suspects one finds at a blues jam?

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## Verne Andru

> I am contemplating stepping out of the cold to play blues on my Phoenix Deluxe (which arrived with a McIntryre Feather pickup).  I have a Bad Cat Hot Cat 30 guitar amp, through which the Phoenix sounded a little thin, so I acquired a used LR Baggs Para DI, which solved the 'thinness' right away.  Onliest problem is that the amp weighs 83#, which is far too much to drag around (besides, it gets _very_ loud), though it has gorgeous tone - and is nearly impossible to cause it to make ugly sounds.
> 
> So I have been looking at a 5 watt amp, a Bad Cat Mini II, which weighs a mere 34#.  Both have 12" speakers, both use 12AX7 tubes in the preamp stage (the bigger amp has more than one).  The bigger amp uses 2 EL34 power tubes, the smaller one a single EL84.  Both are beautifully built (all point-to-point wiring, no pc boards).
> 
> Generally speaking, my limited experience says that tube amps sound a whole lot louder than one'd expect, but not being able to actually try the smaller amp out, I throw this question to you folks:  any thoughts about its suitability for making the mando sufficiently audible with the usual suspects one finds at a blues jam?


It really all depends on the sound you're going for. Tubes distort - it's a fact of life. Usually in the last 25% of their range. It drove Leo Fender crazy trying to design tube amp that didn't distort. That's why his later amps have to be turned to ridiculous volumes before you hit the sweet spot.

So, assuming you want a distorted tone, smaller tube amps will help you achieve that better than their more powerful brethren. Why? Because to hear them over an ensemble they need to be cranked up, which usually means you are in the last 25% of the tubes range.

If you're looking for a clean, acoustic tone I'd suggest going solid state. Tube amps, like your Bad Cat, will work because they have so much power you are not turning them up into their distortion zone, but you've already noted the drawbacks.

If you are sold on a small tube amp, VHT makes a pretty nice line. I love small tube amps, but they are not for everything.

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## Ed Goist

> I am contemplating stepping out of the cold to play blues on my Phoenix Deluxe (which arrived with a McIntryre Feather pickup).  ...snip... So I have been looking at a 5 watt amp, a Bad Cat Mini II, which weighs a mere 34#.  Both have 12" speakers, both use 12AX7 tubes in the preamp stage (the bigger amp has more than one).  The bigger amp uses 2 EL34 power tubes, the smaller one a single EL84.  Both are beautifully built (all point-to-point wiring, no pc boards).
> 
> Generally speaking, my limited experience says that tube amps sound a whole lot louder than one'd expect, but not being able to actually try the smaller amp out, I throw this question to you folks:  any thoughts about its suitability for making the mando sufficiently audible with the usual suspects one finds at a blues jam?



Hard to imagine that anything wouldn't sound great through this. At 5W you will likely not have as much headroom, but the actual volume loss will be surprisingly low. If you usually play the 30 at volume settings under 60 -70%, you'll be fine. The one caveat would be if you need super loud and crystal clear cleans. Since EL-84 output tubes are fairly small, they tend to start breaking-up fairly soon in the volume cycle (a characteristic often sought after). Since you'll be playing Blues, I'm guessing you might actually prefer the "warm dirt" of the 5W amp played at the required volume.

Plus, if you find you're just not getting enough oomph, it appears the speaker on this amp is connected through a Speaker out, and there is an adjustable impedance. 



So...If you find you don't have enough volume, you could connect this to a 4X12" cabinet and take the paint off the walls...Or just mic it.  :Smile:  Rock on!

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## Polecat

I've never played either the Bad Cat nor one of the VHT amps, but if I had the 1000-odd dollars to spend that the Bad Cat costs, I would probably spend 250 of it on a VHT Special 6 Combo and the remainder on getting it modified to sound like an electric mandolin amplifier rather than the guitar amp it (and the Bad Cat) is designed to be. A lot of people here make the comment that an emando, especially when distorted, basically sounds like a very high-pitched electric guitar. This is not surprising seeing that most emandos are played through equipment that is specifically designed to sound good when you play a guitar through them, not a mandolin. There is very little demand, and therefore no supply of amps specifically for electric mandolins. My suggestion would be first to look for a tech in your area who would be willing to take on such a project, explain to him what it is that you want, and discuss it with him. VHT describe their wiring on their website as being on a "Mod-Friendly Eyelet-Type Board", which will warm the heart of anyone who wants to monkey with the circuitry. And its well worth playing around with the values of the coupling caps, the components in the tone control and so on, it makes a huge tonal difference. When I play electric, I use a tube amp that I built from scratch using a standard guitar amp circuit which I then modified by trial and error to get what I regard as a good mandolin tone (I had never built an amp before, or since, but its hardly rocket science) - that was back in the 90's, when low wattage guitar amps weren't available like they are these days. If I were wanting to do the same thing today, I would buy something like the VHT special 6 (or special 6 ultra - it has two preamp tubes), draw myself a schematic and fiddle around with it.


Edit and caveat: I am not recommending you to buy a tube amp and modify it yourself unless you are familiar with the basic safety procedures for working on valve circuits. They operate at high DC voltages that can be lethal if you are careless or even just unaware of the danger.

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## jefg

A small tube will be great. Blues Jr., Pro, etc. are durable versatile choices. Older, smaller, Valco, Silvertone, Magnatone, even better if you're going to mic it. Folks recommending Solid State don't understand what you're going for here.

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## Ed Goist

Is anyone aware of a production combo tube amp with the following specs/features?:
* +/- 20W
* 12AX7 into EL84 tubes
* One channel
* Master, volume, 3-band EQ
* Spring reverb
* One 15" speaker
* REASONABLY portable for someone 50+ years old and with bad knees.

I'd love to have a smallish, light, EL84 driven amp with a 15" speaker.
I recently heard a Peavey Delta Blues with a 15" driver and it was _"Love at First Tone"_. I thought it blew away the Classic 30 with same circuit and a 12" speaker, but the Peavey Delta Blues weighs a ton, and it has a second channel (which I really don't need...I love my pedals!)
I'd also consider a head/cabinet combination to get there, but portability is key.
Thanks

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## Marc Woodward

Anyone tried a Vox AGA150? 
This is purportedly a specialist valve/tube amp for acoustic instruments. 150 watts but still very portable. The idea being to have a clean but slightly warmer/mellower sound... No distort/overdrive but reverb and chorus. Two channels one valve one normal transistor...
I wonder how a mic sounds through the valve channel? I normally play into a condenser mic and run it to the pa but like the idea of something on stage (or for little gigs where pa would be overkill).

Cheers,

Marc

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## Verne Andru

Isn't portable and 15" speaker an oxymoron?

15's tend to be for bass and there are not many guitar amps using that speaker config IIRC. Peavey Delta Blues comes to mind, but you already know about that one.  I believe they Victoria amps has a guitar amp with a 15, but they are more a high-end boutique builder and cost may be an issue.

If you're up to doing a custom job, Crate makes a couple amps - the VC20 and V16 - that have the amp circuit you want but in a 12" package. They can be had for around $200. Find a cabinet builder who can give you a box the size you need then shop for a 15 with the voice you want. Going with a custom cabinet will give you the opportunity to get something in a plywood build, which is much lighter than the MDF that Peavey and others use in mass-produced amps. And, of course, the speaker you choose will make a ton of difference as well. Not sure it'll be anywhere near as portable as you'd like, but have a it.

I've gone the other way - I rely on small 3 to 5 watt tube amps and DI them into the PA. Uber portable, tons of tone and volume is the front-of-house problem.

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Ed Goist

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## almeriastrings

15" speakers are not my idea of portable, either.

The Vox is essentially a very clean solid state output stage, with one channel having a 'tube' pre. However.... it is not a true tube amp by any stretch. More like one of those cheap mic 'tube' pres run from a wall wart for that channel. 

If you are playing Tele in a loud country band, yes, you need plenty of clean tube power (roll out the Twin Reverb), but for most things where you are just looking for tube saturation 'flavor' a much, much lower powered unit is the way to go. 5 watts is often plenty. You can get 'hot rodded' versions of cheap tube amps that work well, like the Epiphone Valve Junior. There is a guy in the UK who does a lot of this. Some good ideas on his website:

http://www.ratvalveamps.com

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Ed Goist

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## Ed Goist

Played one of the Fender 'Pawn Shop' series Excelsior amps (13W, 1X15, 2X12AX7 into 2X6V6, just 33#) at my local GC today...Very fun and interesting, but it had dirt even at very low volume, and no reverb (though the tremolo was really fun). Also, I found the lack of having both a Master & a Volume control to be a real deficiency. It also has just one tone control. 

Amazingly, I've found someone locally who is interested in trading a Fender Blues Jr. with a 12" Celestion G12M Greenback speaker for my Hughes & Kettner Tube Edition. The Blues Jr. has the one channel, the tube configuration I'm looking for, ample watts (15), the control configuration I'm looking for, and I'm hoping the Greenback will provide the driver character I'm looking for. Maybe most importantly it weighs-in at 31# (10 pounds or 24% less the the H&K). 

We'll see how it works out...._"Oh Tone, you are such an elusive Vixen!"_

Thanks for all the comments.

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## almeriastrings

The H&K's are a _great_ amp. Really well made and sound superb. Built like a tank...which is - as you have discovered - also something of a downside, too. The Blues Jr. is also a fine amp. Can't go wrong with either - just comes down to trade offs in weight - power - tone - channels , etc.

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Ed Goist

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## Ed Goist

> The H&K's are a great amp. Really well made and sound superb. Built like a tank...which is - as you have discovered - also something of a downside, too. The Blues Jr. is also a fine amp. Can't go wrong with either - just comes down to trade offs in weight - power - tone - channels , etc.


It's funny how priorities can change...
Up till about a year ago I did 95+% of my playing at home, and _"gear portability"_ wasn't even on my radar. Now, because 50+% of my playing is done outside of the home, _"gear portability"_ is right near the top of my priorities list, right after tone and dependability.

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