# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  Mysterious F4

## mrmando

With a serial number of 73512, you'd expect this thing to have a truss rod, but it doesn't appear to. 

Fretboard and bridge are replacements. Too bad about the pickguard support, but I suppose that could be patched up and a correct cam-style clamp found. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Gibs...MakeTrack=true

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## Tobin

Hmm.  There's a lot about that neck that makes me wonder if it's a replacement.  Some of the details look a little "off" to me.  The shape and contour of the neck seem strange, and some of the peg head details don't look right to me.  If my suspicion is correct, and the neck was replaced at some point, it would explain the obviously different fretboard, lack of truss rod, etc.

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## Tom C

The headstock definitely looks like it was broken -See horizontal line. The line breaks right where truss rod pocket would be. If you zoom in 300%, you can see traces of old pocket. and it looks refinished.

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## JeffD

The pickguard attachment is moved. The question is, what happened to that instrument that necessitated moving that attachment.

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## lenf12

It sold for $3850, about right given all the ???. Agree with you Tom and Tobin that something is not right with that neck, fingerboard (smaller dots at the 15th and 17th frets) and headstock and only an in hand inspection would provide the answers.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## Tobin

> The headstock definitely looks like it was broken -See horizontal line. The line breaks right where truss rod pocket would be. If you zoom in 300%, you can see traces of old pocket. and it looks refinished.


Yikes, I didn't see that before.  And yup, I see the break line as well as the outline of the original truss rod pocket in the peg head overlay.  But I don't see the same break line on the back of the peg head (or any evidence of a break in the wood of the peg head or neck).  My conclusion is that the original peg head broke just past the truss rod nut, so they replaced the entire neck and fretboard.  They reclaimed the original tuners and peg head overlay and put them on the new neck.

I could be wrong, of course, but the evidence seems to point that direction.

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## mrmando

The fretboard has a 1st-fret marker when it shouldn't, and only a single marker on the 12th fret, and most of the markers are too large, and the shape of the Florida is wrong.  The pickguard attachment isn't just "moved," it's jury-rigged: the original cam clamp has been replaced with a screw-on bracket that was attached first in one place and then another. 

For me, the truss rod is part of what makes a Loar-period F4 desirable in the first place, so I wouldn't be interested in something like this without knowing more about what happened to it. Ah well.

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## bobguichard

Looking close at the head stock inlay "The Gibson" the workmanship is very poor. I don't think that inlay cut in that sloppy would have left the factory like that.

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## mrmando

This photo here is the money shot: 
http://thriftdrop.com/P1170596.JPG

Gouge marks around the h and e in "The." 
No dot over the i in "Gibson." Isn't there supposed to be one? (We have logo inlay experts on board, but I'm not one of them.) 

You can clearly see the shadow of the truss rod cover pocket in this photo. So it might be the original neck/headstock with a replacement head plate; maybe the repair tech was able to rescue the flowerpot and "Gibson" but not "The." 

Why anyone would cover up a truss rod pocket is beyond me, however.

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## Tom C

Quote:" Why anyone would cover up a truss rod pocket is beyond me, however."

I'm thinking because the crack goes thru it, it was the only way to make it strong enough.

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## Jeff Mando

Also, seems to be a line across the top scroll where it may have been broken and reattached -- but I guess that would be the least of your worries with this one.  It may just be a deep scratch, can't really tell by the photo.

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## mrmando

> Also, seems to be a line across the top scroll where it may have been broken and reattached.


No corresponding line on the back of the headstock, so I'm guessing it wasn't completely broken off. 

It's back online (non-paying bidder): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Gibs...cAAOSwnHZYSNQ4

Seller says the FON is 11827, which is listed in Spann for a 1923 F4. That matches what one would expect from the serial number.

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## Tobin

> No corresponding line on the back of the headstock, so I'm guessing it wasn't completely broken off.


Or the original one was broken, but the neck got replaced and the original overlay that was transferred still shows the signs of it.  It's also possible that they just broke the overlay itself during the removal/replacement phase.

But I think it's just another piece of evidence that the neck is not original to this mandolin.

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## mrmando

> But I think it's just another piece of evidence that the neck is not original to this mandolin.


Why would somebody install a replacement neck with an empty truss rod pocket in it that is visible under the headplate? If this were a nonadjustable replacement neck it wouldn't have a pocket. 

If that were an original headplate, it would have a patch where the truss rod hole used to be. I don't see a patch, I just see an impression.

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## Mark Gunter

> Why would somebody install a replacement neck with an empty truss rod pocket in it that is visible under the headplate? If this were a nonadjustable replacement neck it wouldn't have a pocket. 
> 
> If that were an original headplate, it would have a patch where the truss rod hole used to be. I don't see a patch, I just see an impression.


There's a better way to interpret the evidence. Neck was replaced with another sans truss rod; headstock veneer plate was salvaged and _spliced_; lower portion of plate is _not_ original but spliced so as to fill the missing truss rod pocket cut out of the original upper headplate.

Anyway, that's how I see it.  :Coffee:

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## mrmando

Ah. That's a possibility depeniding on how one interprets what one sees in the photo. These aren't great photos, and an in-hand inspection would help clear up the question.

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## Mark Gunter

> Ah. That's a possibility depeniding on how one interprets what one sees in the photo. These aren't great photos, and an in-hand inspection would help clear up the question.


Agreed. I just looked closely at all the photos enlarged and it's pretty clear that the 'splice line' we've all seen never goes all the way across . . . no further than where the edges of the pocket would have been. As you say, no way to be 100% sure about what's going on without a personal inspection.

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## mrmando

The strings could be covering up part of the line. There's also a light-colored patch on the treble side that would seem to cross the splice line ... if it's in the wood, then there goes the splice theory. But it could be a reflection of a light source.

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## Jeff Mando

Simple cosmetic solution would be to install a "dummy" truss rod cover, just for looks!  It won't do anything, but it will stop of lot of these gol' durn questions!  And it will be our little secret, OK?  :Wink:

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Timbofood

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## mrmando

My contention is that the mass added by the truss rod contributes to the quality of the sound, in addition to helping prevent neck issues.

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## Gary Hedrick

I have a confession to make on this one. Ever wonder why it disappeared off of Ebay for a short time?

Well the story is interesting.....I have injured my back....been on heavy pain meds and muscle relaxers .....got up and couldn't sleep ...doped up and saw this on Ebay and thought ...how bad could it be....shot them an offer of $3k and they took it.....now when I sobered up later and found out what I had done I withdrew my offer.....
Don't buy on Ebay when you are "wired"......Sheesh what a mess.....

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John Eischen, 

tonydxn

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## mrmando

Ha! Well, if I made an offer it would be under $2K, I think.

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## mrmando

Oh, heck, you can see the splice line on the headstock plain as day in this photo: http://thriftdrop.com/P1170614.JPG

I don't see any obvious evidence of a splice at the neck joint, however. What if this is the original neck and someone just pulled the fretboard off and took out the truss rod, for sentimental reasons?

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Mark Gunter, 

Tobin

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## Gary Hedrick

The finish on the side of the neck is also funny looking and the dots...sizes of the dots....the whole thing is just odd...

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## Timbofood

The whole splice thing still begs the question, "But, why?". Lots of work to remove, modify and reinstall a veneer. But like my daddy used to say:
"You could tie your mule to the Queen Mary but, why would you want to?
You're a good guy Gary! You owned up to a "mood enhanced eBay ramble"! I'd have simply hung my head and stood in the corner, Santa might be good to you this year! :Wink:

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## Jeff Mando

I think there is a very good chance we are overthinking this.  There is only one reason a peghead gets spliced/repaired/refinished:  it broke.  Plain and simple.  The peghead overlay was retained to save the Gibson logo and flower pot.  If this repair was done 40-50 years ago, those items were not available like they are today (eBay, internet, etc.)  Was the truss rod removed?  We don't know -- might still be in there!  Why was the fingerboard removed?  We don't know.  We also don't know the skill level of the repairman.  Maybe this is the first repair of this type he attempted and was just "thinking" his way through it?  Obviously, a better repairman today could make the "repair lines" almost invisible.  My vote would be that the neck and peghead are original and a piece was spliced in to facilitate a repair, possibly for strength, at least in the mind of the repairman.  Mandolin originally had a truss rod, which is in keeping with the serial number and time period.  Reason for weird dots and side markers?  Again, 40-50 years ago, nobody knew.  There were no forums discussing such minutiae.  Authentic repairs depended on the experience of the repairman.  Unless the repairman worked at Gibson, Gruhn's, Mandolin Brothers, or Elderly -- he probably wouldn't run into an F4 everyday, especially a guitar repairman.  Anyway my two cents.  You wouldn't build a new neck just to repair a peghead crack unless it was just splinters.  You would repair the original neck.  Just like you wouldn't take a car in for a brake job and get it repainted as part of the repair, logic would dictate.

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## Gary Hedrick

Oh I have other Ebay "adventures" ....many years ago the Dr. put me on Ambien......well sleep walking.....fixing eggs in the middle of hte night and leaving the stove on AND buying unhatched eggs on Ebay.....Araucana eggs no less....the blue and green ones....I had a egg incubator at the time so it wasn't all nuts but Ebay and I have special relationship over the years.....

- - - Updated - - -

I am not sure that putting in an offer of $2.5k and if a person was a luthier that this wouldn't be ok......the rest of the instrument looks fine

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## Jeff Mando

Gary, you have given me new insight into some of my eBay (almost) sales!  I hadn't thought of the sleep walking angle.  But I have had instruments purchased by children on their parents account (and later cancelled, of course, by the parent).  And, in contrast, I have also been the beneficiary of winning bids made by a drunk person, who told me the story (bidding in the middle of the night after coming home from the bar!), but still felt compelled to honor their bid.

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## Timbofood

Yes, I suppose you have a good point Jeff. When we were younger and full of juice we have all done some things which, in retrospect, may have been "less than wise" simply because we knew no better and this well may have been someone's stroll down that lane.
Gary, if it's any consolation, I have been guilty of the "ramble" driven by any number of reasons, sleep deprivation, recreational ...., dire need of retail therapy, you name it! I have tried to limit my expenditures there for myriad reasons.

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## Tobin

> Oh, heck, you can see the splice line on the headstock plain as day in this photo: http://thriftdrop.com/P1170614.JPG
> 
> I don't see any obvious evidence of a splice at the neck joint, however. What if this is the original neck and someone just pulled the fretboard off and took out the truss rod, for sentimental reasons?


I think that photo pretty much answers the question on the splice of the overlay.  You can also see where they filled the screw hole for the truss rod cover. 

This has to be a replacement neck due to a snapped peg head.  The neck just has a weird shape and contour, especially near the nut.  I'll bet it has no truss rod at all, and the veneer splice was meant to just do away with any truss features.

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## mrmando

Well, it was sold again on eBay ... but here's  a very familiar-looking mandolin on the Boston Craig's List: 
http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/msg/5920735487.html

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## pheffernan

> Well, it was sold again on eBay ... but here's  a very familiar-looking mandolin on the Boston Craig's List: 
> http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/msg/5920735487.html


And now in the classifieds: http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/105628#105628

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Gary Hedrick

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## Jeff Mando

eBay seller was in New York.  Current seller is in Boston area.  I guess he didn't like it, or at least didn't own it for long?  :Confused:   Or possibly purchased for resale at less than the eBay price?  Interesting.  Well, it's a 1923, it has "that" going for it, so maybe somebody outside the "loop" might think it is half price, due to the issues we've discussed  -- but everybody here is "in the loop".........

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