# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  Pava Player versus a Northfield M

## Nick Gellie

Any thoughts as to which A-5 mandolin one would go for if price is not the most important issue?  Both the Pava Player and the Northfield M have similar appointments.

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## pheffernan

Hey Nic! To me, the question largely comes down to whether you prioritize the Adirondack top of the Pava over the Engelmann of the M or the varnish of the M over the lacquer of the Pava. It seems that a new M is even more uncommon than a used Pava. But then you know me: I'd like to buy one of each!  :Laughing:

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lflngpicker

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## darylcrisp

thats a tough question.

having owned an instrument from each maker, i feel able to make the following remarks.

1) big bang for the buck
2) almost surgical precision in build(with Pava being ever so slightly on top)
3) will arrive with very nice, low playing action, from the box
4) pleasing tone up and down the neck
5) bell like notes up and down the neck
6) excellent fret work
7) customer service, both will stand behind the product
8) aesthetic quality to the eye
9) neck profiles more similar than not(Pava and NF F5S-i have not played or had in hand the M)

hard to go wrong either way. i think either purchase would be a positive experience.
d

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lflngpicker, 

Nick Gellie

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## Nick Gellie

Thanks Pat and Daryl for some useful posts.  I agree with you Daryl that they are pretty much equivalent.  It comes down to tone I suppose and whether I am willing to pay $700 more for the Pava mojo. I will wait and see what others have to say.

I have had some pleasant dealings with people at both Ellis and Northfields - really nice people to deal with.

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## pheffernan

Sound clips are so hard to assess, but I would think that the M would be like a Collings MT, bright with a lot of cut, while the Pava would be darker with more complexity.

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lflngpicker

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## Nick Gellie

Good comparison Pat.  That was what I picked up when listening to both being played.  We need some more good Pava video and sound clips to help us out too.

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## Luna Pick

I have had my Northfield M for several weeks now. I don't think I would categorize the sound as bright, more like clear, focused, sweat and warm, and very responsive, and with good cut. I have a red spruce mando as well and would say it's darker, but at the same time the Northfield M is pretty woody and open sounding, maybe coming somewhat from the varnish finish. 

I have never played a Pava but know too they are very good mandolins. Many good choices out there now, including in this price pocket.

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lflngpicker

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## almeriastrings

Only recently got to try (finally) a Pava. Very nice mandolin indeed. Has a lot of "Ellis" about it, as you might expect. Very responsive. Complex voicing... rich, but with very clear and bell-like trebles and near perfect string-to=string balance. Super clean construction. Fit the hand beautifully. Felt "just right". These are a great mandolin... I suspect the price will not remain where it is for too long. Pava is an absolutely top class builder.

Should add I have not encountered a Northfield 'M' model yet, but obviously, Northfield's are also a fine mandolin - going by the one I have, though, quite different tonally than Pava/Ellis voicing, which in turn is not the same as Collings voicing... though both Tom Ellis and Pava have (at various times) had historical links with Collings.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Whilst we can only offer 'pointers' along with some of our experiences,the only way that you can really find 'the one' is to play them,but the OP knows that i'm sure. It's a real problem making a decision on other folk's opinions.There's always the nagging doubt that maybe the ''other one'' might have been better. I have no experience of Northfield mandolins other than sound / video clips of them being played,& they do sound good IMHO. One thing i know, is that _any_ instrument emanating from the Ellis / Pava workshop will have flawless workmanship & equally superb tone. I have to admit to being an Ellis 'nut',but the Northfield instruments,as i said,do sound very good. So,for me,it would be the Pava,simply for the almost guaranteed build standard & for excellent tonal qualities,
                               Ivan

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## Nick Gellie

> Whilst we can only offer 'pointers' along with some of our experiences,the only way that you can really find 'the one' is to play them,but the OP knows that i'm sure. It's a real problem making a decision on other folk's opinions.There's always the nagging doubt that maybe the ''other one'' might have been better. I have no experience of Northfield mandolins other than sound / video clips of them being played,& they do sound good IMHO. One thing i know, is that _any_ instrument emanating from the Ellis / Pava workshop will have flawless workmanship & equally superb tone. I have to admit to being an Ellis 'nut',but the Northfield instruments,as i said,do sound very good. So,for me,it would be the Pava,simply for the almost guaranteed build standard & for excellent tonal qualities,
>                                Ivan


All good pointers Ivan and thanks also to Almeria Strings.  I like instruments with a varnish finish. The Pavas come in a lacquer finish.  Something I would have to accept of course.  I am leaning towards a Pava as I was going down the Ellis mandolin path until the Aussie dollar lost value against the greenback and other life matters took a turn.

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## multidon

Where does one even find one of the new made in USA Northfields to look at and try? They were introduced with great hype and fanfare 6 months ago, and since then, none to find at any music stores I know of. Not one in stock at Elderly, The Mandolin Store, Fiddlers Green, or Gryphon. I am beginning to think they are mythological creatures.

You would think that if they were really interested in being a player in that market niche they would get some examples out to the stores.

By contrast, I had no trouble finding a Pava to play at Elderly. Very nice.

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lflngpicker

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## Tobin

> All good pointers Ivan and thanks also to Almeria Strings.  I like instruments with a varnish finish. The Pavas come in a lacquer finish.  Something I would have to accept of course.


I'm sure Tom & Pava could accommodate a varnish finish on a Pava mandolin.  It's not like these are mass-produced instruments coming off an assembly line, where you only get the options that are available in lots of 10,000.  Every Pava is hand-made in their shop, on the same workbench as Ellis models.  They offer varnish finishes on the Ellis line, and I wouldn't think it would be a big deal to do varnish on a Pava if that's what you want.  It would be a custom order, sure, but that's not a huge deal.




> Where does one even find one of the new made in USA Northfields to look at and try? They were introduced with great hype and fanfare 6 months ago, and since then, none to find at any music stores I know of. Not one in stock at Elderly, The Mandolin Store, Fiddlers Green, or Gryphon. I am beginning to think they are mythological creatures.


I haven't been into Fiddler's Green for a few months, but every time I go in there, they always have at least one or two Northfields on the wall.

Of course, it's possible that as the popularity of Northfield has grown, all their new mandolins in production are custom orders, making it difficult to sell 'stock' mandolins to shops.  As I recall, the Northfields are built in small batches anyway.

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Nick Gellie

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## multidon

I did not mean to say it is difficult to find a Northfield in stock. It is not. I was referring specifically to the much hyped new "entry level" made in USA A styles. If someone could point to just one actually in stock at some actual web site or store, I would be interested in seeing it. But all I've seen is on the Northfield web site. Zip at retailers.

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## Capt. E

> Where does one even find one of the new made in USA Northfields to look at and try?


Try Fiddlers Green. I just tried out a Northfield F-4 black top that was pretty nice. Not sure it was USA built, but I think so. They also have a couple of Pava's (and Ellis) hanging on the wall right now.

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## multidon

I feel the need to clarify one more time. It seems I am being misunderstood.

Northfield has the Master Models, which are "assembled" (their word) in their shop in China from North American materials then completed at their Michigan shop. They also have the S series ( S for standard?) which follow the same build pattern.

Last year, I think November or so, they announced with great fanfare the introduction of the M series (M for Michigan?). This was to be a plain no frills A style entry level, their least expensive instrument, completely made in their Michigan shop. I know there is a prototype at least because they have a video of Adam Steffey playing one on their Web site. In post 7 above the poster states he has had his Northfield model M for "several weeks now". 

I have never seen one of these for sale anywhere. Never. All I see are the F styles. How did the above poster procure one? Is this a product that must be custom ordered? If so, that involves a leap of faith like buying a pig in a poke, sight unseen, never played. And if that's the business model they must believe their reputation is enough. Additionally, their shop is in Michigan, for crying out loud. It makes zero sense for Elderly, also in Michigan, to not have an example for sale on display. Elderly was still listed as an authorized dealer of theirs on their Web site. I believe they have 2 F models in stock now. But no A styles.

Anyone who has actual information about this state of affairs, not speculation, I would love to hear it. I know when the announcement was made many of us were anxious to see and play one. There was a thread about it at the time. Maybe the Northfield guys would chime in with an explanation. I belong eve they monitor the forum.

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## Luna Pick

Hi Don-
I'll add one thing, and as they say, it's just my opinion, to me it's not a no frills mandolin, depending on one's definition of frills I guess. It's tastefully done, and has just the frills I would want: radius, abbreviated pick guard, varnish, scoop, fast neck, even the new Nugget tail piece. NFI, just adding a couple points folks might be interested in.

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## terzinator

> I have never seen one of these for sale anywhere. Never. 
> 
> ...
> 
> Anyone who has actual information about this state of affairs, not speculation, I would love to hear it. I know when the announcement was made many of us were anxious to see and play one. There was a thread about it at the time. Maybe the Northfield guys would chime in with an explanation. I belong eve they monitor the forum.


According to Luna's thread from March, they got it from Northfield directly. The website has this line:
_
Reserve your Model-M, call us @ (585) 233-1104 or email orders@northfieldmandolins.com._ 

As far as "no frills" goes, I think of it simply meaning unadorned, with minimal binding and no fancy inlays. Not that it's unattractive. On the contrary, I think unadorned can be wickedly attractive and tasteful. That's why I've always been a fan of 18-series Martin guitars (see my sig). Tasteful as can be.

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## MandoJason

> According to Luna's thread from March, they got it from Northfield directly. The website has this line:
> _
> Reserve your Model-M, call us @ (585) 233-1104 or email orders@northfieldmandolins.com._ 
> 
> As far as "no frills" goes, I think of it simply meaning unadorned, with minimal binding and no fancy inlays. Not that it's unattractive. On the contrary, I think unadorned can be wickedly attractive and tasteful. That's why I've always been a fan of 18-series Martin guitars (see my sig). Tasteful as can be.


Hey Nick I hope you've got some helpful info to make your decision on Pava vs. Northfield a little easier. I've owned/played both and I own an Ellis F5 currently that I love. I think Pava mandolins are a good route to go because they most likely will go up in price due to their great reputation, build quality, Ellis connection, etc. Im sure the Northfield will too. from my limited impression of the 2 makers and models in discussion I  feel the Pava will offer a little more complexity which is nice if you play alone or in a small ensemble...or if you enjoy a lot of different kinds of music. IMO the Northfield offers a tremendous bluegrass sound and excellent playability/volume. I didn't notice the pavas having an astonishing amount of volume per se (and not that a loud mandolin means its a good mandolin) but I've noticed the Pava's getting a lot of attention from other musicians. So I feel it offers the Ellis type sound in a far more affordable price point. Im a multi-mandolin owner so I would say they both are fantastic and both builders are excellent people/folks. You can't go wrong so just go to a store that has them both if that is an option and A/B them to one another. 
Enjoy your new mando, whichever way you go...

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Nick Gellie

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

As Chris said, I don't think the Northfield Model M is available in any retail outlet. In fact, looking back at an email response from Northfield I got back when it was introduced, the Model M will be sold exclusively through Northfield directly.

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## MandoJason

oh yeah, sorry about that Clement, I overlooked the fact that you essentially can not compare them in a store since they're only offered direct. take care...

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## Nick Gellie

> Hey Nick I hope you've got some helpful info to make your decision on Pava vs. Northfield a little easier. I've owned/played both and I own an Ellis F5 currently that I love. I think Pava mandolins are a good route to go because they most likely will go up in price due to their great reputation, build quality, Ellis connection, etc. Im sure the Northfield will too. from my limited impression of the 2 makers and models in discussion I  feel the Pava will offer a little more complexity which is nice if you play alone or in a small ensemble...or if you enjoy a lot of different kinds of music. IMO the Northfield offers a tremendous bluegrass sound and excellent playability/volume. I didn't notice the pavas having an astonishing amount of volume per se (and not that a loud mandolin means its a good mandolin) but I've noticed the Pava's getting a lot of attention from other musicians. So I feel it offers the Ellis type sound in a far more affordable price point. Im a multi-mandolin owner so I would say they both are fantastic and both builders are excellent people/folks. You can't go wrong so just go to a store that has them both if that is an option and A/B them to one another. 
> Enjoy your new mando, whichever way you go...


MandoJason,  Thanks for your great post and encouragement.  Because I am a multi-genre person, I am tending towards a sunburst varnished Pava Player.  I have sent a note to Ellis mandolins asking if they do a varnished sunburst Pava Player.   I am interested in people's opinions about the volume put out by a Pava Player. There seems to be some opinions about that it is not the loudest mando about.

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## darylcrisp

i was looking at the M models when they were first announced, spoke with one of the main fellows(can't remember which) and he said they were being done in small batches of 4 to 5 mandolins, the first batch at the point had been sold out within a matter of a day or two, and i think he told me the other batch was sold out as well. i asked about how long each batch took and i cannot remember the reply, but i'm thinking there are only 2 or 3 folks building these in Michigan, so thats probably why none are in shops.

d

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## darylcrisp

> MandoJason,  Thanks for your great post and encouragement.  Because I am a multi-genre person, I am tending towards a sunburst varnished Pava Player.  I have sent a note to Ellis mandolins asking if they do a varnished sunburst Pava Player.   I am interested in people's opinions about the volume put out by a Pava Player. There seems to be some opinions about that it is not the loudest mando about.


Nic
i can only tell you my thoughts on the Pava i owned. it was not the most loud mandolin i have played, but it had a high quality to the tone. one didn't need to use a lot of force with the right hand to get very nice tone. i felt it was plenty loud but i don't play in a band. it was new, adi top, so i'm sure it would only get better in time with play.

likewise, i will say the F style Northfields i've played are not as loud as the Collings Mt i owned(that thing could peel paint off the walls), but again, all have a nice quality of tone and react to a light right hand very well.  those things matter a lot to me and thats how i play. i prefer adi on top of a Northfield, the few englemann tops i've played were really sweet in tone, but the adi just adds some punch that i like(these were all F styles).

d

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## Nick Gellie

Spot on comments Daryl.  They really assist me in making a decision and others no doubt who are following this thread.

What if you had bought a Pava Player with a 1 3/16" nut width?  Would you have still have kept it?

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## Ivan Kelsall

My Ellis "A" style is finished with Behelen 'Rock Hard' oil varnish & finished with Tru-oil. I'm pretty sure that if you specified that finish,Pava would oblige,why would she not ?,
                                                     Ivan :Wink:

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## almeriastrings

Volume-wise, the Pava I tried was more than adequate. Certainly not a quiet or wimpy kind of mandolin at all. I would be quite satisfied with it. There are more 'cutting' mandolins, but typically, with these, you also lose a bit somewhere else.... horses for courses....tonally it was very much in the Ellis camp. It was very new, so would doubtless get better yet. Incidentally, I have never encountered one in person, but I see Fiddler's Green have a drop-dead gorgeous Pava Pro in stock! That looks wonderful.

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## Nick Gellie

I agree Tony.  The more cut on a mandolin, the less complex tone (i.e Collings) as Daryl and others have pointed out.  It is a real balancing act for a luthier to find the right tonal response across the four courses.  Thanks for your opinion on its comparative loudness.

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## Tobin

> I am interested in people's opinions about the volume put out by a Pava Player. There seems to be some opinions about that it is not the loudest mando about.


I wouldn't think it would matter whether it's a "satin",  "player", or "pro" model; they should all have the same volume.  With that said, my Pava (which was made before they started these three model designations, but is appointed similar to the "player" model) is loud.  Very loud.  It's noticeably louder than my Ellis F5.  I haven't necessarily done a side-by-side volume test with other brands, but I couldn't imagine needing or wanting a mandolin to be any louder, as I think it is perfectly balanced between volume and tone.

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Nick Gellie

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## bigskygirl

> I feel the need to clarify one more time. It seems I am being misunderstood.
> 
> Northfield has the Master Models, which are "assembled" (their word) in their shop in China from North American materials then completed at their Michigan shop. They also have the S series ( S for standard?) which follow the same build pattern.
> 
> Last year, I think November or so, they announced with great fanfare the introduction of the M series (M for Michigan?). This was to be a plain no frills A style entry level, their least expensive instrument, completely made in their Michigan shop. I know there is a prototype at least because they have a video of Adam Steffey playing one on their Web site. In post 7 above the poster states he has had his Northfield model M for "several weeks now". 
> 
> I have never seen one of these for sale anywhere. Never. All I see are the F styles. How did the above poster procure one? Is this a product that must be custom ordered? If so, that involves a leap of faith like buying a pig in a poke, sight unseen, never played. And if that's the business model they must believe their reputation is enough. Additionally, their shop is in Michigan, for crying out loud. It makes zero sense for Elderly, also in Michigan, to not have an example for sale on display. Elderly was still listed as an authorized dealer of theirs on their Web site. I believe they have 2 F models in stock now. But no A styles.
> 
> Anyone who has actual information about this state of affairs, not speculation, I would love to hear it. I know when the announcement was made many of us were anxious to see and play one. There was a thread about it at the time. Maybe the Northfield guys would chime in with an explanation. I belong eve they monitor the forum.


Why dont you just call or email them?

Heres the contact info from the website....

Contact Us

130 W Michigan Ave.
Marshall, MI 49068

info@northfieldinstruments.com
585.233.1104
269.589.9297

Peter is who I dealt with when my mando was being built.  He memtioned to me a few weeks ago that e mando has been so successful they are staying busy fulfilling orders.  I would imagine that is why there are none in showrooms yet.

Peter monitors this email....

orders@northfieldmandolins.com

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## darylcrisp

> Spot on comments Daryl.  They really assist me in making a decision and others no doubt who are following this thread.
> 
> What if you had bought a Pava Player with a 1 3/16" nut width?  Would you have still have kept it?


YES!

before i purchased this Northfield F5S i have(wide nut version), i had inquired with the Ellis group about such an order. i specifically asked about getting a wider fretboard and a different neck profile. both were available for a small, very reasonable upcharge. 
at that point i chickened out. i'm one of these folks who are scared to special order and prefer to have something already made so i can do a hands on.

i have no doubt whatsoever that if i had special ordered a Pava with a wider fretboard(nut width) and slightly more V profile, it would have been quite satisfactory.

the only reasons i sold my Pava were the nut width and the neck profile(which i was just about ready to speedneck and slightly reshape the neck myself-so that was no biggie).

as much as i love my Northfield, and i'm a huge fan of the brand and folks making them, if you are comfortable with a 1 1/8" neck, i would give you a nudge to step into a Pava,  just because they are that good.

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## darylcrisp

[QUOTE=darylcrisp;1394827]YES!

before i purchased this Northfield F5S i have(wide nut version), i had inquired with the Ellis group about such an order. i specifically asked about getting a wider fretboard and a different neck profile. both were available for a small, very reasonable upcharge. 
at that point i chickened out. i'm one of these folks who are scared to special order and prefer to have something already made so i can do a hands on.

i have no doubt whatsoever that if i had special ordered a Pava with a wider fretboard(nut width) and slightly more V profile, it would have been quite satisfactory.

the only reasons i sold my Pava were the nut width and the neck profile(which i was just about ready to speedneck and slightly reshape the neck myself-so that was no biggie).

*as much as i love my Northfield, and i'm a huge fan of the brand and folks making them, if you are comfortable with a 1 1/8" neck, i would give you a nudge to step into a Pava,  just because they are that good.[/*QUOTE]

okay, I'm retracting the bold part. both are even up in my mind and I've been playing my NF tonight and its just a neat experience every time I lay hands on it. i think i said the above in thinking the Pava would hold a higher resale in the event you let it go-I'm not so sure that would be true.  I think the M models will be every bit as good as the other Northfields and likewise will hold value and sell easy.  if only you could play each at the same time to see/hear/feel to make your choice. 

at some point down the road, and it will be a while for sure, I'm thinking of adding a Big Mon A style to my herd(I'm down to two mandolins right now and will probably let go of #2 soon). i wouldn't kick an F style Big Mon out the door, but i like A styles a lot.
then again, i will heavily consider placing that order on a Pava with a wider nut and slightly different neck profile-so I'm absolutely no help here.....................at all...............................

d

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## Nick Gellie

Thanks for the wonderful advice from all involved.  It is a tough choice between the two.  If I ordered a Pava, I would make some comment to the folks at Ellis mandolins about the shape of the neck.  I prefer a well done sunburst to a honey or amber coloured soundboard.  I have some time to think about it.

It seems the Northfield Model M is also well built with perhaps slightly better tuners.  I have to give some more thought about that tone question.  The volume issue has been put to the back of the list of issues to consider.  Both mandolins appear to be able to hod their own.

It really is a tough call.  I will sleep on it for three nights more before I reassess the options.  It has a been a fun thread and thanks all the PMs too giving me advice.

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## Canoedad

As far as I can see only one person here has actually played an "M" model.  And that person has never played a Pava.

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## PJ Doland

My Model "M" is supposed to ship this week.

-PJ

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## Nick Gellie

PJ- give us a report when you get it and even a sound clip or a video if you can manage it.

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## Nick Gellie

Just to let everyone know I am going to have a chat with Tom Ellis tomorrow about neck profiles, particularly the chunky section near the heel.  Personally I like a soft V shape - somewhere between a V and a U shape.

I will report back to the this thread  the results of my chat with him.

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## Nick Gellie

Well my Pava #108 arrived this morning safely.  Well all I can say is what a beauty and what craftpersonship!  The colour and finish is superb, the sunburst is subtle and refined and the figure on the back is one of the best I have had on a mandolin.

I have no issues with the rounded neck profile.  I prefer to the V-neck shape I have on my Arches FT-O.  The neck shape is slightly more rounded than my Black #20.  I could not be happier.

The tone is nicely rounded out and I agree that it is not the loudest A-mandolin but boy is she refined in her voice right out of the box.

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## almeriastrings

Pictures... we need pictures....  :Grin: 

Pleased to hear it made the long journey safely, and that it lives up to expectations!

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## Nick Gellie

Pictures are coming.  I have just taken a few.

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## Nick Gellie

Here they are.  She has a tobacco sunburst even though there is a hint of reddish-brown burst.



I am impressed with the finishing details and so far I have played her for an hour or so.  Yes Tony, she does live up to expectations.  I must say she sounds as good as any mandolin worth two or three times as much.

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Charles E., 

DataNick

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## Ivan Kelsall

Hi Nick - Congratulations on your new Pava,that should be an inspiration to play if ever there was one.
    Right - you say that it's not the 'loudest' "A" style. I own an Ellis "A" style, & from what i've read / heard,the Pava's are so close to Tom's own build that you could mistake one for the other. Tom Ellis likes the GHS A270 strings on his mandolins & he's fitted them for years. However,as i'd used DR MD11 strings on the 2 mandolins i already had,i fitted a set to the Ellis & they did what they'd done for my Weber & Lebeda & really supercharged it,without any loss of tone.The DR's are as DR themselves say,a bit 'brighter' than most strings,but that dies down after a wile. So,there's an option to try out if you wish. I'm also sure that as your Pava is played more & more,the tonal qualities & volume will increase as it loosens up.
    Your pics.arrived just as i was posting this - totally superb mate ! I'd be up all night playing that cracker - enjoy it !, :Grin: 
                                                                                                                                 Ivan :Wink:

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## Nick Gellie

Hi Ivan

Yes I a still grinning ear to ear having had the Pava sit in my study and being looked at with awe.  As you well know I was going to get an Ellis until the AUD went south and a custom build went awry.  Anyhow this Pava mandolin has made up for that n times over.  I more than with the looks and tone of my Pava - incredible instrument. 

I will certainly look into the DR MD11 strings as alternatives.  The ones on the Pava look a bit worn actually so I should replace them soon once I have played it a bit more.  Yes if my wife allows it, I will play till late in the night.  Haven't felt so good in a long while.

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## darylcrisp

georgeous looking mandolin.  
they do have an excellent timbre-eh!
d

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Nick Gellie

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## Tobin

Congrats, Nick!  That's a fantastic looking Pava.  Super flamey back!  If one were to cover up the peg head, it might be confused for an Ellis A5.  I love that burst color too.

I agree with Ivan on the string thing.  The GHS A270s are decent strings, but they're not the loudest out there (especially if they're already very played-in).  I'm sure you'll find a set that brings out the best in that Pava, and once it opens up, you'll likely get some more volume out of it.  The best is yet to come, as they say.

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Nick Gellie

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## terzinator

Gorgeous. I played a couple of Pavas a few weeks back at the Mandolin Store, and they were truly special instruments.

Yeah, I've been curious about Tom Ellis' choice of GHS 270's as his default string. Does anyone know why he uses them, specifically? I've never tried them, and i don't think I'd have ever heard of them if it weren't for Ellis.

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## Tobin

> Yeah, I've been curious about Tom Ellis' choice of GHS 270's as his default string. Does anyone know why he uses them, specifically? I've never tried them, and i don't think I'd have ever heard of them if it weren't for Ellis.


When I asked him about it last summer, he said it was all about the 0.016" A strings.  Years ago, I think it was the only set on the market that had this size A string with the other typical gauges on the other courses.  I guess he settled on this as his default, and hasn't found anything else he likes any better.  As I recall, he told me he had experimented with some other gauges on the other courses, but didn't notice as big a difference as he does with the A strings.

(Tom, feel free to correct me if I've misquoted you on this!)

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## terzinator

> When I asked him about it last summer, he said it was all about the 0.016" A strings.  Years ago, I think it was the only set on the market that had this size A string with the other typical gauges on the other courses.


Interesting. 

Comparatively, Siminoff's S-U medium set has a .016 A, but a .039 G. (Where the others, such as Elixir and D'Addario, have a .015 A and a .040 G.)

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## MandoJason

So I got my hands back on each of these mandos in discussion and just wanted to add a little as I was much more in tune w/ the differences, etc. this time around...here is what I noticed while its fresh on my mind.
The Pavas (played 2) were both voiced similar to eachother. They are plenty loud enough but because they don't come across as a "sharp cutting" mando maybe it sometimes feels like there isn't as much volume as in other A models. But I didn't play them any harder than I played the Northfield and in my recordings there is no lack in presence/volume/etc.
NORTHFIELD- It had more bass and cut harder. 
PAVA- It was more balanced, rounded and sweeter.
*All 3 (2 pavas, 1 northfield) had great playability and were very comfortable.
*I like the finish on the Pava better 
*I think Pavas may be developing a commonality in discussions regarding the volume for 2 reasons
     1- they are all relatively new so we have yet to hear what a Pava sounds like after 10-20 years (im sure it will be killer)
     2- they have other qualities that I immediately notice and my mind/ear begin to focus on them (finish, wood selection, tone) and volume just isn't one of those qualities that jump at my right away when playing one.
I had a tendency to stop playing the pavas every once and while and just look at it, spin it around, admire it, drool over it then back to picking! they strike me as being so well built (and again, so are the northfields- no knocking those cannons in any way!).

You simply can't go wrong unless you get a mandolin that just doesn't speak to you...these are excellent choices and both have so much to offer a player. 

-Jason

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Pick&Grin

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## Nick Gellie

Great review Jason.  I concur with your comments on the Pavas.  I have only heard the Northfields but cannot comment on their playability.

Having had mine for a day I also concur with you about those other qualities:

"_2- they have other qualities that I immediately notice and my mind/ear begin to focus on them (finish, wood selection, tone) and volume just isn't one of those qualities that jump at my right away when playing one.

I had a tendency to stop playing the Pavas every once and while and just look at it, spin it around, admire it, drool over it then back to picking! they strike me as being so well built (and again, so are the northfields- no knocking those cannons in any way!)._

The same happened to me last night.  I just sat in a chair just reflecting on the experience having played my Pava.  I have never had such a pleasant feeling musing about it.  I was in a blissful state happy to do nothing there for a while.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Tobin's dead on - Tom Ellis does go for the .016" "A" strings for his mandolins that's why he likes the A270's so much.He told me he's been using them for years. I did mention to him that i was using DR MD11's on my Ellis "A" style & he said he'd used DR's & liked them,but his standard fit seems to be the A270's. Ok,they aren't the 'loudest' string out there,but i've never played a sweeter,more balanced set of strings & believe me,i've tried a few. The A270's are also silky smooth under the fingers because i think the Bronze winding is finer than say,J74's.
  From Nick - _"....had the Pava sit in my study and being looked at with awe..."_. Yes,it's hard not to want to look at something so lovely. I propped my Ellis up on my PC desk when it arrived & almost stared the finish off it. As i said,an inspiration to play - but you know that don't you !, :Grin: 
                                                 Ivan :Chicken:

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## Nick Gellie

Ivan - I ordered some packets of MD DR11s to try them out.  I usually put on D/Addario J74s.  I will be interested what they do tonewise to the Pava when I replace the current strings, which I presume are GHS A270s.

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## Tobin

> Ivan - I ordered some packets of MD DR11s to try them out.  I usually put on D/Addario J74s.  I will be interested what they do tonewise to the Pava when I replace the current strings, which I presume are GHS A270s.


If you're going to experiment with strings, I have to recommend Siminoff's "Straight Up Strings".  I liked their tone on my Ellis even better than the DR MD-11s.  And I did think they were more balanced, which was Roger Siminoff's intent with this set.  Though he uses lighter G and D courses, the A and E courses are heavier than the "standard" mandolin gauges.

For reference:

GHS A270s use 11-16-26-40

DR MD11s use 11-16-26-40

Siminoff SUSs use 11.5-16-24-39

With Siminoff's heavier E string and lighter G and D strings than the GHS or DR strings, it really helped balance things out.  I've heard people say that Ellis is a "bassy" mandolin anyway, so perhaps this set brought out more of the higher end in relation.  I dunno; I didn't particularly overanalyze it.  All I know is that I liked them better than the MD11s (which I still liked very much).  Whether they'll have the same effect on a Pava, I couldn't say.  But being from the same family of instruments, I'd think it's worth a shot.

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## Nick Gellie

Tobin,

That is a really good idea and I like the way you have approached the issue of strings.  Are n't Mr Siminoff's strings a bit dear though?  I will check them out too. What about the good ol J74s?

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## pheffernan

> For reference:
> 
> GHS A270s use 11-16-26-40
> 
> DR MD11s use 11-16-26-40
> 
> Siminoff SUSs use 11.5-16-24-39
> 
> With Siminoff's heavier E string and lighter G and D strings than the GHS or DR strings, it really helped balance things out.


The Straight Up strings appear closer to the GHS A260 Bobby Osborne strings (11-16-24-38), also noted for their evenness of tone.

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Tobin

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## Northwest Steve

The D'Addario EXP74CM are 11.5, 16, 26, 40. They are the newer set that Chris Thiele hade them set up. I have them on my Kentucky 1050 and they are nice.

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## Tobin

> The D'Addario EXP74CM are 11.5, 16, 26, 40. They are the newer set that Chris Thiele hade them set up. I have them on my Kentucky 1050 and they are nice.


Yep, those are worth mentioning and trying too.  That's what I'll be using for the next few months at least, as I go through all the sets that I enthusiastically purchased.  The gauges are just what I like, and the coating makes playability a breeze.  They actually last longer under my fingers before they rust out.  

The only thing I don't like as much about these is the tone of the coated strings.  They just don't have the punch for chop chords that some of the other uncoated brands have.

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## MandoJason

Thanks Nick, Im glad you found a mandolin that speaks to you. Enjoy, have a great day. Back to picking for me!
Take care Nick
Jason

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## Nick Gellie

Mandojason,

I have not stopped picking the last few days. I have been trying some new things like hammer ons, pull offs, slides, all combined together.  I have really appreciated the advice I have got in the last two weeks regarding mandolin, strings, etc.  That is what the cafe is here for - to help people out in their choices.  Ultimately, we have to make the choice whether we both this or that mandolin, or  keep what we have got.   i have n't felt so good about a mandolin in ages.  In fact when I put my trio together at the moment, the Pava, Arches FT-O which I have refinished, and the Black A2Z, I am blessed with some very good mandolins at affordable prices.

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## doc holiday

Congratulations.... Another killer mandolin from Austin!

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Dale Pauline, 

Nick Gellie

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## Ivan Kelsall

Well,the 2 mandolins i own that sound most alike are the Weber & the Ellis.Both are very 'open' & clear sounding - but,the Weber is already a bit too bright maybe.The reason i went for DR MD11's on it,was for the sheer 'punch' that they have.J74's never sounded anywhere near as good. But (again),as DR themselves say,their strings were made to sound brighter than most.I think that's why they continue to sound so good for much longer than other strings. On my Weber,as much as i love the drive that the DR's give it,until they calm down,it is pretty bright sounding,but not 'glaringly' so. To that end,i just ordered 2 sets of GHS A270's for it. I'm hoping that the thicker "A" strings will deliver some added kick to it,while keeping the brightness under control. I know without trying them yet,that the A270's will sound good. As i said,they are the sweetest toned & most well balanced set of strings i've tried yet - depite my love for the DR's which will remain on my Lebeda & Ellis,neither of which suffer from any 'overbrightness'.
   With ref.to another thread which i started re. 'Pick thickness' - i've been using Dunlop 'Primetone' 1.3mm thick teardrop shaped picks for over 8 months.Yesterday,i received a 3-pack of 1.5mm ones of the same shape,& against all logic,despite there being no obvious difference in pick 'stiffness',they are much louder than the 1.3mm ones. So,an additional factor in the 'loudness' stakes, :Confused:  Yesterday,using the 1.5mm picks,my Lebeda,which i bought them for,sounded so terrific that i was forced to play it for close to 5 hours. I really was amazed at what an extra 0.2mm thickness can do,
                                                                                                                                                                    Ivan :Wink:

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## Nick Gellie

Well  i normally use a Wegen 1.5 mm pick or a Dawg pick  I like the pick shap of each of them. I am happy to try out a Dunlop Primetone 1.5 mm pick.  I have n't tried a Bluechip Pick yet.  The price scares me off a bit.

BTW Northfield Model M owners we would love to hear strings and picks you use to enhance your playing experience.

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## Nick Gellie

Well  i normally use a Wegen 1.5 mm pick or a Dawg pick  I like the pick shap of each of them. I am happy to try out a Dunlop Primetone 1.5 mm pick.  I have n't tried a Bluechip Pick yet.  The price scares me off a bit.

BTW Northfield Model M owners we would love to hear strings and picks you use to enhance your playing experience.

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## Nick Gellie

Just that I would show the alabaster colour and figure on the side of the headstock.  Outstanding grain!



Sorry about the double post.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Nick - From my own experience & from what other folk have mentioned on here,the Primetones do deliver some additional volume. I went from 1.4mm Wegen Bluegrass picks,to 1.3mm Primetones which were much louder. The 1.5mm Primetones have simply added some extra power without being 'brash' or hard. I tried them out on my Weber & Ellis yesterday & got the added volume without any loss of tone. I think that's as far as i need to go regarding picks at the moment,
                                                                                                           Ivan

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## Nick Gellie

Ivan,  I got some Dunlop Primetop 1.5 mm picks ordered last weekend.  They arrived today.  I am impressed at the quality and improvement in tone.  I am not saying they are a Blue Chip but for $10AUD for three picks, plus postage they on par if not better than the Wegen picks.  MD DR11s will be arriving later in the week to try out on the Pava.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Nick - I've tried 2 Blue Chip picks belonging to a friend of mine on my mandolins. OK,they were of a different shape,but not too far removed from my Primetones & for me,there was no difference other than the Primetones sounded a tad brighter. In the UK,a BC pick cost around £34 UK ($53 US / $67 AUS) = no way mate !!. That's way too much to be disappointed (maybe). I love the 1.5mm Primetone / DR strings combo.,so why go any further,
                                                                        Ivan

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Nick Gellie

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## Nick Gellie

Well I got 3 1.5 mm Dunlop Primetone picks for less than a third of the price of 1 bluechip pick ($21/$67AUD).  I am satisfied too with the results I am getting with the Primteone picks.  Thanks Ivan for the idea.

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## Nick Gellie

Ivan - i have put some MD DR11s on my Pava and they really brighten up the sound and volume with little detraction on the tone.  Thanks for the tip!

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## Ivan Kelsall

Hi Nick - I'm pleased that you like the DR's. I was playing my Ellis "A" style yesterday & those DR's give it a real boost,& as you say,without any loss of tone. If you keep those DR's on for a while = several months & yes,they will last a long time,the brightness will disappear,but the 'punch'' will remain & the strings become beautifully balanced & rounded in tone. I had a set on my Weber for 8 months & they sounded superb.I only removed them because they'd gone black behind the bridge where my hand touches them. I must admit that at that point in time,the Weber had never sounded so good. Although the GHS A270's have removed the 'brightness' on the Weber,they're not in the same league as those 8 month old DR's, :Frown: 
                                                                                                                Ivan :Chicken:

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Nick Gellie

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## almeriastrings

8 months on a set of strings... wow... I get about 3 weeks if I am lucky on a typical uncoated set and maybe 6 weeks if I use EXPs. The DR 11's lasted about a month.

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kenny boy

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## jshane

> I had a set on my Weber for 8 months ......


Wow... After about 3 or 4 weeks, I can't get strings to intonate properly... Drives me crazy. I'm jealous that you can get strings to last that long.

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## Tobin

> Wow... After about 3 or 4 weeks, I can't get strings to intonate properly... Drives me crazy. I'm jealous that you can get strings to last that long.


That's the same problem I have.  I like coated strings for their ease of playability, and it reduces the rust issue (and green fingers), but I haven't found a set of strings yet that doesn't start to lose intonation pretty noticeably after 3-4 weeks.  I can't figure out how people keep playing strings past this point, unless they're just not hearing it?

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## almeriastrings

One difference that can be involved... how hard you play. I tend to "whip it like a mule", and I too get intonation issues before they actually go "dead" as such. My wife, on the other hand, can keep a set going for months... I looked at the strings under my microscope ( I know  :Laughing:  ) and saw that mine had deep depressions and wear on the underside of the strings over the frets, while hers did not... then there is skin chemistry... some more oily or acidic than others... so I suspect these factors are both implicated.

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## Dick Hutchings

What would cause them to lose intonation? I go a year or more. They don't change strings on pianos.

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## Mike Barber

> What would cause them to lose intonation? I go a year or more. They don't change strings on pianos.


As I understand it, it's because the bottom of the string gets a depression. When that gets big/deep enough it throws off the intonation (I think because the scale length must change a bit?) For pianos the striking mechanism doesn't cause the string to deform that way.

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## MandoJason

> That's the same problem I have.  I like coated strings for their ease of playability, and it reduces the rust issue (and green fingers), but I haven't found a set of strings yet that doesn't start to lose intonation pretty noticeably after 3-4 weeks.  I can't figure out how people keep playing strings past this point, unless they're just not hearing it?


Yep, Im in the same boat, after about 3 weeks even with EXP/coated strings I notice intonation issues (slight, but enough to be a bother to the ear) and I really notice the deadening of the tone. I teach mandolin so I am on my instrument a lot but I change every 2 weeks...not cheap but I love the sound!

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## Eric C.

> Yep, Im in the same boat, after about 3 weeks even with EXP/coated strings I notice intonation issues (slight, but enough to be a bother to the ear) and I really notice the deadening of the tone. I teach mandolin so I am on my instrument a lot but I change every 2 weeks...not cheap but I love the sound!


Same issue here. Three weeks and intonation starts getting weird. Uncoated strings last only a week due to them going to junk from my fingers.

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## Tobin

> As I understand it, it's because the bottom of the string gets a depression. When that gets big/deep enough it throws off the intonation (I think because the scale length must change a bit?) For pianos the striking mechanism doesn't cause the string to deform that way.


Yeah, flattening of the string where it contacts the frets is probably the biggest cause for intonation issues.  I always look at mine when I remove them, and it's pretty obvious where the frets were.  I guess I probably play with a heavier left hand that some players.  But it makes a nice pattern of shiny flattened spots on the undersides of the strings.

What's strange is that I pretty consistently notice the intonation problem occurring on the G strings at the 7th fret when played with the open D strings, and the A strings at the 7th fret when played with the open E strings.  But it doesn't seem to be much of a problem with the D strings at the 7th fret when played with the open A strings.  Not sure why this pattern seems to happen for me, regardless of brand, but it's where I notice intonation going wonky.  It's always refreshing to put on a new set and have that intonation back to near perfect (as perfect as it can get on a 12-TET fretted instrument, anyway), but I know it'll start sounding "off" within a week, and unbearable by 3 weeks.  

The A/E strings are always the first to start sounding sour together, and I can alleviate it with an interim change of these courses.  But eventually that G/D comparison will sound too terrible to stand.  Another one that I can't live with is when the two strings in a course will be perfectly tuned together when open (and checked with harmonics) but start to intonate differently up the fretboard.  I have to watch my finger pressure to make sure I'm not bending them unequally or putting different pressure on them, but when they start to get out of tune with each other on fretted notes, it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.

Because I do have sweaty hands, I tend to get dark/rough spots on the A/E strings, sometimes even after less than half an hour of playing.  So every few days I restore them with Nevr-Dull.  This could possibly lead to intonation issues as well, if the rust and polishing are changing the physical diameter of the strings at certain spots.

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## Dick Hutchings

I'll have to pay closer attention to the intonation when I change my strings. I must admit, my A pair sounds way out on the 7th fret. I thought it might have something to do with the bridge shape for that pair. What was this topic again?

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## MandoJason

> Yeah, flattening of the string where it contacts the frets is probably the biggest cause for intonation issues.  I always look at mine when I remove them, and it's pretty obvious where the frets were.  I guess I probably play with a heavier left hand that some players.  But it makes a nice pattern of shiny flattened spots on the undersides of the strings.
> 
> What's strange is that I pretty consistently notice the intonation problem occurring on the G strings at the 7th fret when played with the open D strings, and the A strings at the 7th fret when played with the open E strings.  But it doesn't seem to be much of a problem with the D strings at the 7th fret when played with the open A strings.  Not sure why this pattern seems to happen for me, regardless of brand, but it's where I notice intonation going wonky.  It's always refreshing to put on a new set and have that intonation back to near perfect (as perfect as it can get on a 12-TET fretted instrument, anyway), but I know it'll start sounding "off" within a week, and unbearable by 3 weeks.  
> 
> The A/E strings are always the first to start sounding sour together, and I can alleviate it with an interim change of these courses.  But eventually that G/D comparison will sound too terrible to stand.  Another one that I can't live with is when the two strings in a course will be perfectly tuned together when open (and checked with harmonics) but start to intonate differently up the fretboard.  I have to watch my finger pressure to make sure I'm not bending them unequally or putting different pressure on them, but when they start to get out of tune with each other on fretted notes, it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.
> 
> Because I do have sweaty hands, I tend to get dark/rough spots on the A/E strings, sometimes even after less than half an hour of playing.  So every few days I restore them with Nevr-Dull.  This could possibly lead to intonation issues as well, if the rust and polishing are changing the physical diameter of the strings at certain spots.


Hey Tobin, I'm not familiar with Nevr-Dull...do you recommend it? I'll look into it...when we're touring and changing strings right before a show is too big a hassle (going out of tune on stage) I think that would be a nice back-up plan. 

thanks for any info/experience you can relay....
jason

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## Tobin

> Hey Tobin, I'm not familiar with Nevr-Dull...do you recommend it? I'll look into it...when we're touring and changing strings right before a show is too big a hassle (going out of tune on stage) I think that would be a nice back-up plan. 
> 
> thanks for any info/experience you can relay....
> jason


Someone else had mentioned it a while back when I was complaining about rusty strings, and I gave it a try.  It works wonders!

If you're not familiar with it, it's a can of cotton (?) wadding that's soaked in mineral spirits, and possibly other stuff.  You just pull off a small piece and use it to polish stuff like silver, chrome, or whatever.  It works well for removing the dark, rough spots I get on my plain strings from my sweaty fingers.  I typically take a piece of aluminum foil and slip it under the strings to cover the fingerboard and frets before using small pieces of Nevr-Dull wadding to shine up the A/E strings.  Once I've got them smooth again, I wipe them clean with a paper towel, making sure I get all the residue off (it will turn the wadding and the paper towel black).  It takes about 5 minutes to do, which is much quicker than replacing strings that still have some life in them!

I tried it on the wound strings once, and I'll never do it again.  The black junk got in between the windings and would not come clean.  And it really didn't do much to brighten up the phosphor-bronze anyway.  So I won't touch the wound strings with Nevr-Dull, but just stick to the A/E strings.

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## MandoJason

excellent, thank you! i'll pick some up....i was wondering about not getting it on the fretboard...ahh, tinfoil!
thanks, take care.

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## Tobin

Heh, aluminum foil was just my quick solution.  I have to be careful slipping it in there so I don't scratch the finish with the jagged edges from where I ripped it off the roll.  But it's nice to be able to gently press it and form it around the neck area so it stays put while I'm polishing my strings.  I tried using cling wrap, and that didn't work so well.  But I'm sure anything impermeable would work as long as it can lay under the strings to protect the fretboard.  Like maybe a thin piece of cardboard from commercial packaging, if it has that shiny film on it that will keep the mineral spirits from soaking through.  Maybe the thin plastic cover from a thin report binder?  Or a plastic sheet sleeve?  If you're doing this on the road, it would be convenient to employ something that's reusable.  Aluminum foil is getting expensive these days!

When using the Nevr-Dull wadding, I have to use very small pieces that I can get under the string and use my fingernail to clean the underside of the string (lots of rust happens there).  Sometimes I will slip one end of the wadding under the string and grab both ends, pulling up and away from the fretboard so that it grabs the underside of the string and I can just work it up and down the length of the string.  I have to keep turning it to a fresh area as it turns black from the rust/tarnish on the string.  It will feel somewhat gritty as it does its work, but when it feels smooth, it's good to go.

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## Ivan Kelsall

That 'Nevr-Dull' sounds a lot like the Duraglit wadding i use to polish metal,i also use it as a buffing media to remove small surface scratches. It's made from mixing a polishing media (in the case of Duraglit i think it's Jeweller's Rouge) with white spirit. It might work,but personally,i'd never use it as the polishing media will seep in between the windings to an extent, & you'll never get it out.
For cleaning my strings,i use either WD-40 as i believe Adam Steffey also does,or 'Servisol' Switch Cleaner,or 3-In-One oil. None of those has any 'solid' matter in them. A quick wipe on / wipe off does it. 'Servisol' contains an anti-oxidant which helps prevent further corrosionas does 3-In-One oil. Using Nevr-Dull or Duraglit,not only are you removing any gunge from the strings,you're also removing the string material itself,albeit on a microscopic level,as you'd remove any corrosion from Silver,which is itself oxidization of the 'parent' material.
  It's not for me to tell other folk what to use,but polishing media such as Nevr-Dull & Duraglit 'remove' material,not simply clean it, :Frown: 
                                                                                                                                                                     Ivan :Wink: 
   This is the 'Silver' polishing version of Duraglit.

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## jshane

> .....The A/E strings are always the first to start sounding sour together..... it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.


Yep.  For me it is mostly the A strings, but E's are culprit, too.

After 3 weeks or so, I can tune the strings open (to a Peterson strobe) and all is fine if I stay within a few frets of the nut. At the 5th fret or so, things sound just plain bad to me. Octaves are horrible. Chords dont ring true. I can "sort of" get away with it if I play only very rapid spritely passages, but slower sweeter lines sound comical to my ear.

If I tune (with the tuner) to notes all fretted at the 5th (or 7th or anywhere, really-- as long as all are tuned at the same fret) things sound good within a fret or two of the one I used to tune.

Beats me what causes it--I dont think I fret particularly hard-- in fact I have worked to try and keep my fret-pressure constant regardless of the volume my right hand is generating. Sometimes I wonder if the effect isnt magnified by the relatively tight strings of the mandolin.  My wife's octave doesnt exhibit this intonation problem until many months have passed--long after she would normally change strings for deadness.

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## Nick Gellie

We have deviated a bit discussing strings and issues with them.  Thanks for your interesting posts.

I am just wondering if any of the Northfield Model M owners might want to add what strings works for them.

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## thegeraldjones

I've owned and early Northfield varnish A and played 15 or so other Northfields. I've played about 15 Pava's and just traded for a Player. My experience is that they are both great instruments but very different animals. Northfields are well built, play and sound great but are not on the same level of fit, finish and beauty of woods as the Pava. 

The Northfields generally are a more aggressive sound that may be better suited for hard driving bluegrass than the Pava. I personally prefer the Pava's complexity of tone but I play little hard driing bluegrass on the mandolin.

This being said I love them both for different reasons. YMMV.

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## pheffernan

> This being said I love them both for different reasons. YMMV.


How does the Pava compare to an Ellis in your experience?

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