# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Bowlbacks of Note

## Jim Garber

I was not sure where to put this -- the Calace thread did not seem appropriate -- but figured it should be noted for any one interested in pursuing it. Perhaps this came be the general section for these mandolins.

Mandolino Lombardo by Carlo Albertini e Figli

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is another one of interest.

Despite the seller's conjecture, I am not so sure that it is Italian, at least the inlays looks pretty American as does the fretboard shape, esp at the higher reaches.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Yes, curious... Perhaps more curious is the fact that the _buyer_ is located in Italy Rome, if I remember correctly. A "trend reversal"?

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## Eugene

Wow, that last piece is intriguing, but pretty wrecked. #I agree, it does look like an American piece to me. #The only place I've seen a fingerboard terminus of that shape is on early mandolins labeled A.C. Fairbanks.

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## Bob A

There's a fellow in Uruguay(!) who's listed a mandolin by Balsamo that seems quite attractive. I suspect Balsamo to be a transplant - the mandolin was made in Argentina, but looks like a very high-end Italian product. Ebay number 3721032838. (Someone ought to tell me how to make these links work).

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## Jim Garber

Balsamo mandolin link.

Jim

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## Bob A

How'dja do that, Jim?

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## Jim Garber

Click on the "http://" button above the reply window. Paste in the Web site address, hit "OK", then it will prompt you to type in whatever word you want to link it to. Hit "OK" again. It will then appear with the proper code in the reply window.

The confusing part is that it will appear after the last typed word even if you move your cursor. You sometimes have to cut and paste it to move it to where you want it.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Just came up: A nice Vega.

Click here: #

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## Jim Garber

Looks like a Style No. 2 Vega, 19 rosewood ribs, "Sound hole inlaid with green brilliant pearl" according to the catalog. 

BTW, I emailed the seller with the usual string caveat.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

It seems to be in a really good condition. Very nice!

Alex.

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## Bob A

Ebay is awash in goodies. At this writing there's a Lyon & Healy style A at $1500, with only one bid; it sells in 18 hrs.

There's a Vinaccia, a Salsedo (a bit worse for wear), a De Meglio clone, and a raft of US bowls, including a Martin 6A, seen hereabouts on occasion. 

Good thing I'm broke. Care to join me?

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## Jim Garber

Here is another interesting bowlback from Catania. Label says Giuseppe Indelicato.

I love that bird on the pickguard. Too bad it is in Ukraine. (The mandolin, not the bird)

Jim

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## grsnovi

The back on that Balsamo looks very nearly identical to my Style 4 Vega

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## John Bertotti

Being new I haven't seen many bowl backs. This site has some that look marvelous to me. It is a site from a luthier who restores bowl backs and it even has some humor. John  
http://www.oldmandolin.com/

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## Jim Garber

This is the famous Carlo M who has been referred to on this board a number of times.

Jim

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## bratsche

Here's a  rare Martin on eBay, with interesting fretboard inlay.

bratsche

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## Eugene

Ah, you tempt me bratsche, the mid-range voiced harpie!

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## Jim Garber

The scary part of this seller's description (other than his use of all caps) is this: "IT APPEARS THAT THE BRIDGE HAD BEEN REGLUED AT ONE TIME."

I emailed him to find outwhat he means by that. and the usual string caveat. I am getting tired of saying it.

Aaaaargh. 

Jim

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## Eugene

Let's hope the bridge simply has been shifted to correct intonation, the original position left a "footprint," and no glue whatsoever was involved.

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## bratsche

Jim - you should simply type out your "usual string caveat' once and for all - save to a file, and copy/paste as necessary. 

Eugene - that's what I was thinking too. An old footprint in the varnish could look like some sort of glue residue, to an inexperienced examiner. Hopefully.

bratsche

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## vkioulaphides

... or maybe he MEANT it!  In fact, when I acquired my current double-bass, some previous owner had in fact driven a nail through the top, just in case the soundpost would _wander away_...  

But, let us be optimistic.

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## Bob A

Yeah, my eternally-in-restoration Vinaccia had its bridge glued down, in addition to other problems. (Sides shrunk so the braces popped through, for example). I haven't had the heart to bug TC about it for the last month or so, but rumor has it that it'll be finished real soon now, like the software vendors used to say.

I'm sitting on my hands regarding the current Vinaccia on the 'bay; after all, I do own one, even if I've never seen it.

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## bratsche

heeeeheeee... I once had a student, long ago and far away. He showed up with his soundpost glued into his violin, after his father had drilled a hole into the top to get ahold of it!  His parents were too cheap to get proper repairs done, so I saw quite a few, ahem... "weird things" with his instrument, but that was the one that took the cake. Let's say it put me off teaching for life, at the tender age of 17.

bratsche

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## Bob A

Time's running out for the maple Vinaccia - 2 hrs to go, and it's jumped to $1005. The Balsamo in Uruguay has 6 hrs or so left; no one has bid on it yet - maybe it can be yours for 250.

A third item I'd been eying greedily is a workingman's Ceccherini, with 3 days to run. It's at 72 pounds; the seller says it has only a single soundboard. I was seriously gonna pursue it, mandopig that I am, but I wanted the double board. Given Victor's experiences, it'd be a nice item at two or three times the current asking, perhaps.

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## Jim Garber

Can't seem to locate the "workingman's Ceccherini" -- do you have a URL? -- I am not interested at the moment in pursuing, but I always like to play the game at home, so to speak.

The Uruguayan guy told me that shipping would be about $76. Not sure who this maker is but itlooks all right. I don't knwo much about uruguay either tho this seller has a 100% rating with 65 transactions.

The Vinaccia will go for close to $2k, I predict.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> The Vinaccia will go for close to $2k, I predict.


Hey, I am not quite as dumb as I look, eh? It closed at $1900. Seems like a war of relatively new (to eBay) Italian bowlback enthusiasts. Either that or they were reading our threads. 

Anyone out there?

Jim

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## Bob A

Hi Jim 

Most folks agree that I'm "out there". 

Workingman's Cccherini: type "mandolin walnut" at ebay and it'll appear. I don't think it's really walnut, but who knows.

Tried to cut and paste, but my scissors just bounce off the monitor.

Glad I didn't get sucked into the Vinaccia.

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## vkioulaphides

Just for "ogling value", can someone post the URL of said (and gone) Vinaccia?

And no, I, too, doubt the "walnut" bit regarding the Ceccherini. It is _virtually_ identical to mine, other than some curious crudeness to the finish, some rough edges, and the de Meglio-esque bar across the strings beneath the bridge vs. that is, the Ceccherini-esque metal "anchors" holding the strings down to the soundboard(s). But, then again, the characteristics of mine may go hand in hand with the "double-soundboard model" it is and all its correlated paramaters and gizmos. 

Somehow, the "workingman's" designation falls short of some, ehm... more substantive description.

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## Jim Garber

Vinaccia

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## vkioulaphides

Many thanks, Jim. 

I must admit I am not on the MAS-path at present. A grueling run at the opera has left me starved not for mandolins but for some desperately needed mandolin-_playing_. 

Not to mention that the check has not cleared yet...

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## Jim Garber

Victor,
I know exactly what you mean. I have to stop looking and start playing more. And I need to put some money toware fixing the ones I have.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Another rather plain figlio Vinaccia (ostensibly) just arrived on eBay. This one in Napoli with very small pics. I asked for larger ones esp of the cracks.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> Workingman's Cccherini: type "mandolin walnut" at ebay and it'll appear. I don't think it's really walnut, but who knows.


The auction on the Ceccherini has just ended, and it looks like I'll be joining Victor in the C owners' club imminently. #I just hope it's playable without too much work; if it is, that price should be a good deal. #I'll give an update once I got it in my hands.

Now, the next question is: how can I get decent light classical strings in the UK? Any ideas? A quick web search came up blank, except for Newtone Lights. #I have actually used them before on my mother's Miroglio, but I thought they were a bit too light even for an old bowlback -- they're 0.008 to 0.030. #Does anybody know a UK web shop for, say, Lenzners (or indeed a European one with decent postage rates to the UK)?

Martin
(with many thanks to Victor for his kind off-board advice!)

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## Jim Garber

It looks like the Vinaccia I mentioned above has a neck that had been at the least cracked or possibly broken off altogether. The seller says that he found a luther in Napoli that would do all the work for 400 euros. Sounds about right for the amount of work that would need to be done to make it playable.

Congratulations to Martin for his new Ceccherini. May it make wonderful music.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Please also accept my on-board congratulations, Martin. I hope that this instrument warms your heart and life like only a sweet-singing mandolin can!

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## Bob A

Suddenly Ceccherinis abound! Congratulations on your new instrument, Martin. Sorry I have no info on string availability.

I just noticed another Ceccherini; appeared in the new Classical Mandolins site. 

Watch this space for more news on Ceccherinis.

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## Jim Garber

Here is another Ceccherini clone. This one at Pamela's Music in the UK. Labelled L. Romito & F. Carbone, 1900. Has the side vents and the characteristic pickguard. How many disciples of Umberto were there?

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

The Albertini Lombardian is on sale again. Let´s see what it does. Click on the smily to get there fast! .


Jim, am I right in thinking that you meant that the above mentioned "clone" looks like a De Meglio mandolin?

Best,

Alex

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello MartinJonas,

I see you are ´on line´! The Ceccherini you recently aquired looks like a fine instrument to me. 

Congratulations!


And regards,

Alex

PS. It looks like the top is lightly shaved with sandpaper (just a little bit) and that afterwards the soundboard has been given a thin varnish. Is that the case?

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## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"the soundboard has been given a thin varnish"

In fact, Alex, that was one of the remarks I made to Martin off-board, as he was considering buying this instrument. I have seen that done to more than a few, exactly as you describe: a light sanding of the top, to remove the patina, then a thin coat of varnish. 

The surface of the bowl also looked a bit rough, making me suspect the later application of some varnish in order to "smooth out" the original, which may have chipped away over the years.

Still, the instrument looks fundamentally healthy. I hope it sounds as healthy as it looks!

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## Alex Timmerman

Yes, that could also very well be possible, but as you say the Ceccherini looks just great! These are very fine instruments.

Just came for sale at eBay England another cav.Giovanni de Meglio e figlio. To view it, click here: 

Best, Alex

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## Martin Jonas

> Hello MartinJonas,
> 
> I see you are ´on line´! The Ceccherini you recently aquired looks like a fine instrument to me. 
> 
> Congratulations!
> (...)
> 
> PS. It looks like the top is lightly shaved with sandpaper (just a little bit) and that afterwards the soundboard has been given a thin varnish. Is that the case?


Thanks, Alex!

I haven't received the Ceccherini yet -- it'll probably be another week for the seller to clear the check and send the mandolin to me. I'll let you know about the top once I receive it and I'll also post some more photos.

Concerning strings, I think I'll try to get Lenzners (Consort or lights, I haven't decided yet). I've had a look at your homepage, Alex, and found the e-mail link to Henk van den Broek as a source for the Lenzners (if my Dutch is right, that is). I have e-mailed him to ask if he does international orders to the UK, which, if he does, should be the easiest way of getting hold of them for me.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> Just came for sale at eBay England another cav.Giovanni de Meglio e figlio. To view it, click here:


So strange and annoying when seller provide such small pictures and none of details.

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## Alex Timmerman

Yes I agree completely, Jim!

The mandolin looks like it hasn´t been toughed for ages. I can hardly see any frets, so they are probably oxidized through the years.

The only thing I miss is the "string-tentioner" beneath the bridge.


Greetings, 

Alex

PS. Romito & Carbone were apprentices of the De Meglio workshop in Neapels.

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## Jim Garber

> Here's a  rare Martin on eBay, with interesting fretboard inlay.


The one that bratsche mentioned went for $1600+. Sounds like a decent price. Like everything else, on eBay, one begets another. Tak a look at another Martin Style 5.

This seller is hedging his bets with a $2500 starying bid. I predict no bids on this one but a late-in-the-game, behind-the-scenes deal that shuts the auction down.

Actually, this seller also has a Style E mandolin, tho he insists on calling them ukuleles. Prob because he in in Hawaii.

Ah, the entertainment of eBay.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"This seller is hedging his bets..."

Erstwhile an avid student of the free market, I fail to see the effectiveness of such "hedging". Posting something, anything on eBay comes with a cost, proportional to the opening ask price; why, then, open with such an unreasonable _minimum_ ask?

An expert seller on the other hand, who might in fact have hard knowledge of pricing, might have approached a dealer to act as an intermediary I do not, that is, question whether said Martin deluxe is worth the 2.5K; I AM questioning the avenue this seller is pursuing.

If you overprice in order to strike a deal "on the underbelly" of any predictable price-curve, you are effectively merely announcing that you have an instrument for sale, not initiating a #_bona fide_ auction. In the seller's position, I would simply post the instrument on the Café's classifieds, on CMSA's magazine, or elsewhere of that sort, as a "best offer" sale, without any binding "put/call" clause: If not satisfied with the best offer, I could always hold on to the merchandise.

My guess, corroborated by the hilarious "ukelele" subtitle: Forgive them, O mando-community; they just don't know..."

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## Bob A

Well, I mentioned Ceccherini news earlier: as luck(?) would have it, I was able (not unexpectedly, but a LOT sooner than I figured) to pry the rococo Ceccherini that was posted on Bernunzio's site (pictures now evaporated) loose from John's collection. (He's too good a dealer to actually hang onto the instruments he attempts to collect!).

It arrived yesterday, and is a veritable jewel-box of an instrument. In nearly perfect condition, the only flaws being a couple chips on the tortoise trim: one from the plate that covers the ends of the strings, one on the edge of the pickguard, and a couple tiny ones on the binding.

Double board, of course; good intonation, wonderful delicate sound, with a surprisingly decent bass. I suspect it is not capable of the volume I can pull from the Pecoraro, but it may be that I ought to change the stringing before I set that in stone. I'm very pleased to report that it gives every evidence of actually having been played - there's finish wear all along the thumb side of the neck. But that's all.

There are no soundholes in the side of the bowl, which makes me wonder whether the bowls so marked might have originated in the De Meglio establishment, or perhaps there was a common source for them?

At any rate, it is sort of breathtaking to hold and play a piece which seems more to belong in a museum than in my living room. Certainly it is a throwback to an era now vanished, perhaps for good and all; though I suppose there are a few luthiers still extant who could produce or reproduce such an instrument, I doubt that there would be a market for something like this, even if you could get the now-proscribed materials with which to fashion it.

It is comforting to know that Sr Ceccherini was capable of forming such a piece, and that. ornament aside, the piece itself is a worthy example of what a mandolin should sound and play like. (Did I mention the perfect action? It is SO thrilling to get a hundred-year-old instrument that has no need to visit the restorer; that was obviously cared for for its entire existence; that could be taken for new if only it hadn't been played enough to show signs of use).

I've now reached critical mass on these things: Tom Crandall tells me he has only to apply a few more layers of French polish to the Vinaccia he's been restoring for the last 18 months, and it'll be ready to ship. Fortunately there are a couple instruments I can send off to him for his magic touch. Now I won't mind at all if he spends the next couple years working on them, as I'll have more than enough toys to play with, meanwhile.

That said, I assume you all have seen Onorato's ad for a Cristofaro in the classifieds? He's asking $350 for it, which seems reasonable, but it may need some work. (Fretboard looks a little shrunken, and there may be a bit of work needed on the top). If he'd advertised it last week, I'd have leapt for it, odd though it may be. That fish-tail peghead is something only a mother could love, but it's akin to a bulldog - so ugly it's cute, somehow. And I know there are those among us who have a strong opinion about asymmetric soundholes. Still, I bet it'd be a decent player.

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## Jim Garber

> I've now reached critical mass on these things.


I think you may mean critical MAS. Unfortunately, it wears off after some time. 

Congratulations, Bob on a real coup. You are the Bowlman.

Jim

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## Eugene

Man, I've been out of this game too long. You lot are all making me really jealous!

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## Bob A

I believe you're right, Jim. For a while it was uncritical MAS, but my eye has developed far in excess of my credit limit.

Go, Eugene! There are plenty more where these came from. Remember the rallying cry of the obsessive consumer - nothing exceeds like excess!

If I change my handle from Bob A to "XS", will you know what I mean?

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## Alex Timmerman

A 1909 Vinaccia desperately crying for help at eBay....

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## Jim Garber

I have the high bid at the moment but I doubt it will stay any where near to my high. Prob go over $1000 for this lower end Vinaccia with lots of work needed.

Jim

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## Bob A

Yeah, that's a hurting puppy. Looks like a job for TC. Figure a year or two; doubtless it'll prove to have been worth the wait, should you survive so long.

I'm getting to be a large fan of maple bowlbacks. I'd have thought to chase it if I didn't already have a Vinnie ready to leave the shop (in rosewood, but who's complaining?). and if I thought I could stand the wait. So no competition from me, at least. Good luck, Jim.

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## vkioulaphides

Hail! The Bowlman Cometh!

Live long and pick, my friend!

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## Marc

Look out MAS strikes again!
I've just picked up an Angara and D'Isanto (Allievi di Vinaccia)in a junk shop for 20 quid (thats about 38 USD I suppose. Its in pretty good nick except no nut, no bridge, one ivory (or bone?) end pin missing, and a little bit of the fruitwood/walnut trim around the side missing. Otherwise neck is straight, top hasn't distorted and it has the other Vinaccia type appointments - little finial, two ebony and pearl dots either side of the bridge, pearl volute (?) on the back of the neck. 
That brings my total to 12 which is more than anyone needs. At what point should I start selling? any thoughts?
Marc Woodward
www.belmando.com

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## Jim Garber

> That brings my total to 12 which is more than anyone needs. At what point should I start selling? any thoughts?


You didn't say if the 12 are just bowlbacks or mandolins in general. I think the point to start selling is when you walk into a room and everytwhere you look, a mandolin stares at you in the face. I am way beyond that point. I am at the point where I have _broken_ mandolins everywhere, some with small things and some that need major restoration.

If I were sensible, I would stop buying and put that money into repairs.

However, 20 quid for a Vinaccia clone... sounds like a bargain to me... 

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

I suppose it all boils down to one's _intentions_... Trouble is, those deeply hidden sparks of psychic energy are too darn well hidden to discern at times.

If, A. one is a speculator, given some funds to begin #with and a keen eye for quality, one could reasonably justify amassing, oh, 100-odd quality, vintage instruments with an eye on future resale at a profit; the question remaining: Whether the needed, #_current-account_ cost of restoration would cause such _forward_-looking, hypothetical profits #to simply evaporate.

If, B. one collects for the sheer pleasure of having beautiful things around him/herself, well, who can argue against THAT? Life has enough ugly corners on its underbelly; some compensation is in fact needed, for _medicinal_ reasons same as I apply to regular consumption of good wine.

If, however, C. one buys for the pleasure of _buying_ itself, I would draw the line there and warn of a serious problem. This is not unlike the compulsive buying of clothes, electronic gizmos, etc. and all those things generally accepted as more "reasonable" purhases than, oh, _mandolins_. *scornful grimace*

I firmly believe that Bob's case goes under scenario "B"; I also think that the vast majority of us are somewhere there, too at least I HOPE we are not slipping into the most unsalutary "C" scenario... #

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## Jim Garber

Actually, Victor, I buy these for the most part to play. A beautiful mandolin that has no sound has little interest to me. Yes there is visual beauty as well -- why else would I go for a style 6 Martin -- but primarily I have divested myself of the instruments that don't work as tools of musical expression.

On the other hand I have been the owner of a few instruments that sounded great but looked horrific to my eye. Many years ago I purchased my first Gibson out a wall of As at mandolin Bros. which turned out to be a whitefaced A3, not because i wanted a white mandolin but in spite of the looks: it was the best sounding one on the wall.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Understood, Jim. When I spoke of surrounding oneself with beautiful things, I did mean both beautiful-looking AND beautiful-_sounding_. Once again, I was unclear.

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## Bob A

Well, gentle readers, I'm thinking there might be another category or sub-
 into which I could fall. Much of my problem, if I would so describe having an excess of good things, comes from curiosity. I got into accumulating Italian instruments in order to have the opportunity to examine and experience the similarities and differences between them, and between Italian as a group and the US instruments I had.

I have a fair selection of mandolins and guitars (which guitars I seldom play these days) but there are only a few which fall into congruent groups. E.g. a '68 Gibson dreadnaught and a '43 J45. I keep them bothe because of sentimental reasons - the '68 was my first decent instrument.

It's the same with the mandolins. Each has a different sound, or style, or something to set it off from its mates. (Currently I have two bowlbacks which are more similar than different: a Mozzani and a Monzino. The Mozzani needs some repairs, so I'm saved from having to make a deaccession decision for the nonce; sadly I am charmed by both of them for reasons of eye appeal as well as aural qualities, so it may never come to a separation).

The sad fact, which we as a group are doing our best to remedy, is that there exists little ground for easy comparison of these instruments on these shores. So a representative selection is at hand, for that purpose. Whether it will be broadly used or remain the whim of a solitary collector is unclear, but at least the potential exists at this time. 

There's also the Mandolin Rescue league, of which I am a member. And the movement to pass onto the future the cream of the past, which is also a noble thought, possibly engendered by a spirit of grandiosity hiding the simpler acquisitive motives. We are nothing if not altogether too clever at concealing ourselves from ourselves.

Of course, when I become too deaf and arthritic to enjoy them, those that are not in the hands of the descendants will be sold, doubtless for a tidy profit. Collection and dispersion are the faces of a particular coin.
One can hope it is not minted from fool's gold.

How many is too many? Hard to say, and dependant on individual circumstances. I'm probably approaching some kind of limit, however asymptotically. But if I have access to funds, and something really interesting pops up, I'll doubtless be tempted. (In what has been a very expensive couple of weeks for me - thru no fault of my own, I'd hasten to say - I found the opportunity to score a baglama for about $75. Which of you would have hesitated on that?)

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## Jim Garber

> How many is too many?


There is a cyber-friend of mine and a few others on this board who has accumulated over 400 bowlbacks of all sorts. His name will go unmentioned at this moment, howver, but I do think he sees the humor in it all.

Jim

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## Bob A

And to think I had my tongue in cheek when I made a comment on another thread about 300 ouds! 

Reality trumps fantasy often enough for the difference to be meaningless.

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## Marc

Hmm, I believe I'm a combination of 'beautiful things' and 'mandolin rescue league'. Of my twelve (which compared to 400 or so seems sadly lacking - I must buy more...) I have to admit that several are hardly ever played but remain for other reasons: eg my first mandolin; an interesting but ultimately crappy Bohmann; a yet to be repaired aluminium Merrill. The instruments that get played are my trusty old F2, my Vega Pettine and my F5 copy.
But all my instruments are different and have differing qualities that appeal. I suppose I wouldn't buy something again that I already had - unless..(insert plausible justification to self).
Marc
www.belmando.com

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## Eugene

That is an eclectic little stable Marc. Popular legend has it that Bohmann was North America's first mandolin maker.

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## Marc

I know. Have you seen there are several Bohmann mandos on ebay at present - looks like someone is unloading part of a collection - although it seems they've been stripped of vital organs. What's going on there?
Marc

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## Jim Garber

> I've just picked up an Angara and D'Isanto (Allievi di #Vinaccia)in a junk shop for 20 quid (thats about 38 USD I suppose.


Marc: When can we see pics of this one on our bowlback pic site.?

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## Jim Garber

> I know. Have you seen there are several Bohmann mandos on ebay at present - looks like someone is unloading part of a collection - although it seems they've been stripped of vital organs. What's going on there?
> Marc


I know -- I asked the seller if he had any parts and he said no. Whre do they all go, those parts?

Jim

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## Marc

I need to get to grips with how to load digital pics up to the site, but when I do I'll post pictures of the D'Isanto instrument and also my Raffaele Valente roman mandolin which is very pretty - fluted flamey maple ribs etc.
just need a few more hours in the day...
Marc

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## Bob A

Folks, there's a Vega Lansing Special on ebay - currently at 100, sale is over in 7 hrs. (Not lansing, Mich - it's an artist model. Lansing was apparently well-known enough to get his own model, not like poor Grisman).

If it's anywhere near as good as the Pettine Special (doubtful, but who knows?) it's a steal.

Also a Martin style 6a is going away in 8 hrs; no reserve, minimum bid 800, so far no takers. We've seen this one hereabouts.

Somebody is gonna get a good mandolin for cheap soon. Why not you?

(I'm not personally involved in either of these, either as owner or bidder. But if I didn't have the Pettine I'd chase the Vega. There's one for sale by a dealer for $900, I think, though it's had no nibbles for a year).

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## Jim Garber

> Also a Martin style 6a is going away in 8 hrs; no reserve, minimum bid 800, so far no takers. We've seen this one hereabouts.


I think this one it Peter Klima's. It looks like the same repaired top crack and same creasing on the pickguard. Yes, it would be a bargain at that price.

Jim

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## Bob A

Oops. Martin auction ends tomorrow afternoon.

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## Martin Jonas

My Ceccherini has just arrived and my first impressions, about an hour after opening the box, are:

1) It's a really beautiful, delicate-looking mandolin in very good condition. Understated, tasteful decoration, which I much prefer to the over-ornate all-over MOP style of decoration. I think Alex and Victor may be right that the top may have been slightly sanded and waxed at some stage, but it doesn't seem recent. The back was probably revarnished as well, but nicely done and again not recent. The top is very dark, much the same colour as the bowl.

2) Two visible repairs (other than the possible refinishing), both very minor: a 2cm strip of the original wood binding has been replaced with an insert and one of the G tuner posts has been soldered where string tension has torn out the hole (and the soldered bit itself is frayed again, so this may need redoing).

3) The neck is straight, but I think the neck angle has moved slightly forward with very minor varnish cracking at the joint. When I got the mandolin, the strings were much too heavy gauge (steelwound, looks like the same gauge as J74s), but I gather that they were only put on a few weeks ago, when the seller took them to a music shop in preparation for the auction, and the mandolin wasn't played with these strings. I have now taken the tension off (which I had asked the seller to do, but he didn't do). The cracking around the neck joint doesn't look recent, so hopefully the seller didn't do any harm in the brief period with the heavy strings.

4) Presumably because of the neck angle coming forward a bit, the action is rather high. Not fully unplayable, but uncomfortable. I have just measured it, and it's between 3.5mm and 4mm at the 12th fret, which surprises me, as it looks higher. I would estimate that I can lower the action to around 2mm (12th fret) by lowering the brass insert in the bridge (either having a new insert made or filing off the existing one) and that should make it playable without a neck reset. I don't think that shimming the fingerboard is an option; it's very thin indeed.

5) All hardware looks original. Rosewood bridge with brass insert, brass nut with integral zero fret (as described by Victor; it's a very snazzy design that looks so intuitively right that I'm amazed no modern luthiers have taken it up), ivory tuner knobs, nickel (?) bar frets with only some minor wear on the first position frets (maybe refretted at some stage?). Ebony fretboard, tortoiseshell pickguard with silver and MOP inlays.

6) No visible cracks, no sign of top sinking (in fact it's slight arched upwards), no rattles or loose braces.

7) Unlike Victor's Ceccherini, this is a single top model, which (as Victor suggested) may explain why it has a de Meglioesque bar to hold the strings down, not the metal hooks seen elsewhere. It's not clear to me whether this one is single top because it was a cheaper mandolin originally or whether it was built before Ceccherini invented the double top. There's no year of construction on the label and no serial number, just the remark "Premiata all'Esposizione di Milano, 1881" which presumably means it must have been built after 1881.

8) It may have spent some time hanging on the wall somewhere, as there are two small holes (one at the side of the neck next to the eighth fret, one to the left of the tailpiece) which may be where somebody screwed hooks in to hang it up.

9) I can't evaluate the sound yet, as I took the tension off the inappropriate strings right when I got it. I just briefly plucked them first, and it was loud and resonant, so I'm on tenterhooks for when I get the Lenzners I've ordered and the lowered brass saddle and can properly hear the character.

On the whole, I think this was a fine buy and I'm crossing my fingers that it'll be stable and playable with the right strings and saddle. Photos to come soon; in the meantime there's still the Ebay entry.

Martin

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## pklima

Yeah, that's my Martin up for sale. I just haven't mentioned it on the board to avoid "buy my stuff" type posts. Figure I'll never be able to get anything for it in Europe so I might as well see if I can sell it and buy an Italian mando. I'm also vastly reducing my instrument collection - my tenor banjo and troll cittern are already gone.

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## Jim Garber

Peter:
 Don't be afraid to mention it to us. One of the nice things is that we keep the beloved instruments in the "family." It always gave me great joy to sell or give my instruments to friends and visit with them in later years.

If your Martin is anything like Eugene's which I tried in NY last fall, it is a honey and certainly reasonably priced. 

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Is this a for-real Embergher. Label and appointments seem very plain. Is it a budget model? Hard to tell but it doesn't seem to have the radiused fretboard either.

JIm

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## pklima

> Peter:
>  Don't be afraid to mention it to us. One of the nice things is that we keep the beloved instruments in the "family." It always gave me great joy to sell or give my instruments to friends and visit with them in later years.
> 
> If your Martin is anything like Eugene's which I tried in NY last fall, it is a honey and certainly reasonably priced. 
> 
> Jim


I did list it in the Cafe classifieds. Scott doesn't like "stuff for sale" posts on the message board. I knew someone would spot it and mention it 'round these parts anyway.

It sold, by the way, leaving me mando-less for now. But I still have the troll guitar and cello banjo which are tuned in fifths. I seem to get along better with larger instruments anyway, as sweet as the Martin sounds. It's probably the finest instrument I've ever owned.

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## Jim Garber

Peter:
We _must_ get you a new small one. You can't be without.... can you? You say you want an Italian: Embergher (or clone thereof), perhaps?

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jim,

Indeed, this instrument has nothing to do with an Embergher mandolin. Why it is there as such I don´t know; it´s most likely that what happens when a ´name´ gets known...


Best, 

Alex

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## pklima

> Peter:
> We _must_ get you a new small one. You can't be without.... can you? You say you want an Italian: Embergher (or clone thereof), perhaps?
> 
> Jim


I'm definitely in the market for a European bowlback but I can live without a mando for a while. I play bass 90% of the time anyway... the only times anyone ever asks me to play anything else is when there are no other instrumentalists. So I can wait for the right instrument/deal and practice smooth tremolo on cello banjo... now there's a hopeless cause.

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## vkioulaphides

Congratulations to Martin on the Ceccherini; on the flip side, I regret that I was not, ehm... how should I put this? "in the money" when Peter's Martin went on sale, in quest as I am (subconsciously at least) for that American Dream of a bowlback.

Now, as to Martin (the mandolinIST, not the mandolin  ) If the action is as high as you mention, I am afraid you cannot solve the problem entirely by lowering the brass saddle; this may take some more extensive work.

Of course, I agree with your observation that raising such a wafer-thin fingerboard is precarious, if not downright impossible if, that is, you care to remove it _intact_, i.e not in splinters. I would recommend a graduated approach (for which an able and h-o-n-e-s-t repairperson will be needed): 

See first what can be done by way of lowering the saddle, as you suggest. I would NOT rush to file down the original, but first experiment with alternative, thinner brass bars. If the results are satisfactory, well, stop right there and start picking to your heart's delight.

If not, and as you report that the frets are worn out, see if some adjustment can be made from that end: Obviously, if you raise the frets (that is to say: replace the worn-out, i.e. _lowered_ by wear frets) with new ones of the appropriate height, you will be ipso facto _lowering_ the action, i.e. the distance the strings need to travel, as pressed by the fingers, in order to touch the frets. See what that does.

Finally, if none of those possibilities will yield adequate and sufficient results, you may consider a whole new fingerboard, or The Apocalyptic Raising discussed above. I know too little about neck re-sets to speak with any experience. Perhaps others can...

We all wish you the best of luck with this lovely, new/old instrument. Please keep us informed.

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## Martin Jonas

> My Ceccherini has just arrived and my first impressions, about an hour after opening the box, are:
> ...
> 6) No visible cracks, no sign of top sinking (in fact it's slight arched upwards), no rattles or loose braces.


Just to follow up on my previous post on this aspect: When I got the Ceccherini home, I took off the bridge to have a closer look as to how I can lower the action. What struck me is that the top is really arched pretty strongly and the arch is clearly part of the design, not just a flat top developing bulges with age. This is apparent from the shape of the bridge, which is carved to follow the arch of the top (and it has an original luthier's mark underneath the base, saying "IIV", whatever that means, so it wasn't sanded to fit later). Standing the bridge on its ends on a flat surface, there's about 3mm to 4mm clearance in the middle. That's not much less than on my F5 clone.

Is such an arch a common feature on old Neapolitan mandolins? Would it have been created by carving, or by steam pressing (the latter, presumably, same as the staves).

Otherwise, lowering the action looks fairly straightforward. The brass saddle is made of a piece of round brass wire, about 3mm diameter, with about the lower third planed off. I should be able to lower the action by putting a smaller diameter brass wire as a saddle, plus shaving about a mm off the saddle support on the top of the bridge. Together, that should give me the 1.5 to 2 mm off the action that I need to make it comfortable and I wouldn't have to touch the base of the bridge with its perfect fit to the top. Does that sound like the right method to those more experienced with such matters?

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Thanks for your advice, Victor. I think our latest messages crossed over in cyberspace. It does look to me as if working on the bridge alone should be enough. I put a straightedge on the fretboard at home, and it has only a waferthin sliver of relief in the centre (about as thick as a sheet of paper) and the continuation of the line of the fingerboard meet the bridge about halfway up. Add two to three mm of string height at the bridge and it's within the height of the saddle. Replacing the brass saddle is really straightforward and I think I can do it myself -- I'll just need to look for a suitable piece of brass. Shaving off some of the wood on top the bridge is a bit trickier, not because it's difficult, but because it's irreversible. Luthiers around here are strictly guitar makers, though, and I'm not too sure there's much point in getting the work on the bridge farmed out to them, so I think I'll take it one step at a time but do the work on the bridge myself.

I wouldn't do any fretboard or neck repairs myself, though. I may have given the wrong impression about the condition of the frets: in fact they are virtually untouched, *apart* from the slightest bit of wear on the first five frets, treble strings only. Either this has never been played much or it has been refretted at some stage. So, refretting wouldn't do much to the action.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

Yes, Martin, the arching of the top is intentional and original, as is (of course) the corresponding shape of the "foot" of the bridge.

If all you describe is so, your method of correction should give you all you need. The mystery (to my troubled, little brain at least) is why the action would have been so high to begin with. What could the previous owner have been thinking? 

As always, best of luck.

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## Martin Jonas

Victor, my guess is that the mandolin hasn't been played for many years and that the neck angle has gradually moved since it had last been played. According to the seller, he got the mandolin in a house clearance this year. The (heavy) strings that were on it when I got it were put on only a few weeks ago by the seller, so they give no indication on what strings were on for the past few decades. However, the seller also sent me some old and still sealed packs of string with the mandolin. These are "Cathedral" brand and from the yellowed paper packs, they date from sometime between the 1940s and 1960s, certainly not more recent. Most likely, these were the same make of strings that were on the mandolin when it passed to my seller. No gauge information at all on the packs of string, but I've opened some. They're not as heavy as the new strings that were put on, but they're still not particularly light gauge. So, I think the action was ok when it was last played, but it may have been stored under excessive tension since then. It would be really annoying if the action had been fine until the recent restringing, but there's no way to find out, I guess.

I got myself some brass rods of varying diameter to make a new saddle this afternoon, so I'll see how far I get with that.

Thanks for the information on arching. How widespread is it? I'm pretty sure that my mother's Miroglio has a flat top (apart from the cant, obviously) and a flat-base bridge.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

Well, both questions are hard to answer.

I would not know how common that _degree_ of arching would be; I DO know, however, that at least _some_ arching of the top is very, very common indeed among vintage Neapolitans. It only adds to the graceful, total shape of the instrument not to mention how greatly it adds to its structural resilience and longevity!

To my knowledge, heavy stringing will do damage over some considerable time. Combined especially with a damp, moist environment, improper extraneous pressures (as when the instrument is leaned or hung inappropriately), moisture that may have weakened the glue-joints... I would not suppose that the neck of your instrument shifted overnight. But, as you say, there is really no way to find out.

Another negative effect is the natural tendency of the strings to go sharp (and thereby exert more pressure on the instrument) as the weather gets colder. Factor in the additional fragility of wood in low temperatures, the usual dryness caused by the cold (as atmospheric humidity freezes), etc., etc. and you see how neglect acts like a nutcracker on the poor _mandorla_. #

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

Here is another American beauty; a superb looking C.F. Martin stlye 5 mandolin!

Click here to view the USA eBay webpage where it just came up for auction.


Greetings, 

Alex

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## Jim Garber

That style 5 "ukulele" is on its second go-around since no one bid the rather high price. 

There is also another one available for considerably less ($1650) at Marc Silber Music, but he does say that it has an old peghead repair (not sure what that means).

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Yes Jim, I can understand that many think that this is a lot of money. But is it too much??? Compared by this flat back Martin (same seller) at the USA eBay web page it looks like a joke. This starts off with $4000,-. 

And of course it is a matter of taste, but I don´t think that these can be compared with the bowlbacks made by Martin. Not in sound and not in craftmanship. 

Some days ago another Martin style 5 went for $1,645.00.


As someone who looks at this from the sideline I wonder why does it looks like bowlbacks are so neglected in the US?

These (like the Vegas etc.) are great instruments in my eyes and ears!


Best,

Alex

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## Jim Garber

Alex, this is the link for that other style 5 Martin. I contacted the winner. He has two of these but mostly plays his Gilchrist. 

Gibson did a very good job years ago selling their style of mandolin. After the smoke cleared and the mandolin craze was over, there was mostly Blugrass players who would not be seen with a bowlback.

It is a matter of taste and the popularity of styles of music. Even in Europe and Japan Bluegrassers play F5s. Classical mandolin in the US is a serious minority.

BTW that Style E is the equivalent of a Martin D-45 which go for $100,000 or more in the US. Still that Hawaiian eBay seller is high priced. For that price I think I would prefer a simple Embergher over the Martin.

Jim

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## Eugene

> And of course it is a matter of taste, but I don´t think that these can be compared with the bowlbacks made by Martin. Not in sound and not in craftmanship. 
> 
> Some days ago another Martin style 5 went for $1,645.00.
> 
> As someone who looks at this from the sideline I wonder why does it looks like bowlbacks are so neglected in the US?
> 
> These (like the Vegas etc.) are great instruments in my eyes and ears!


I think you are preaching to the choir here, Alex. Of course I will agree wholeheartedly. I think it's especially silly when considering that fine Brazilian rosewood bowlback mandolins of the lower models still claim maybe one quarter of how much even the lowest mahogany ukulele model by Martin will take at auction. Still, the prices of nicer mandolins (even of baser mandolins) have appreciated considerably since I started following such things. I think a resurgence in popularity of the classic mandolin may be just around the bend...maybe...I hope...

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## Hubert Angaiak

I am enjoying my plain Martin. I still need to get comfortable in holding it. The tone is unique and I think its more trebly than the high end ones. I had to make an effort to have an open mind, since my mandolin experience is the Gibson type and the tone associated with it. Once getting beyond my bias, the bowlback is a woonderful instrument. I'm sure a diehard flatback player won't agree with me. I do own a Nugget F, a '14 Gibson F-2 and I feel they are honored to have the Martin with them. Its a matter of taste and don't be afraid to try it.

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## Eugene

You should consider adding some images and chatter to the Post a picture thread, Hubert.

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Eugene, Jim and all,

First I must say that I like very much what Hubert mentions about what he is experiencing with his bowlback mandolin. I think this has a lot to do with the appreciation of sound.

Of course I know that you and most of us here, are thinking the same way. 

That both mandolins types and music styles were so separated from eachother and - as Jim points out - that "Bluegrass players would not be seen with a bowlback" is perhaps understandable (seen in the light of time and the enormous popularity of that music genre), but when this situation #lasts - as it apperently does - up to today, I think it´s a real pity.

I hope you do understand that I don´t want to say that if Bluegrass Country Music Father Bill Monroe had played a bowlback of some sort his music would have sounded better. Not at all! I even do have the conviction that Monroe´s music is best heard on his 1923 Gibson F-5 Master model. 

But the other way around, if today Country Music flat/cilinder/carved back mandolinists play Bach or other ´serious´ music, I simply can´t help not being able to free my ears from the ´Kentucky sound´. 

Of course I hear the outstanding virtuosity of the performers, but with that in mind I am flabberthegasted by the thought that they don´t play - when they are so able to do this - ´serious´ music on a bowlback with a plectrum that gets the most out of the instrument. 

Don´t they know these mandolin variants... # ? #If they do know them, do they not compare sound and listen to what sound they produce? 
You see, many questions pop up, like: why are Classical musicians so concerned with sound, how to frase, what kind of trills one should make, what tempo (changings in one piece...) etc. strings, plectra, etc. etc.


Or is it a gap between super talents in the amateur (mandolin) world versus the trained musician in the (mandolin) concert field. 
Both of course being active as professional mandolinists. 


Well, only thoughts of course.

(Maybe some other thread some day...)


Best, 

Alex

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## John Bertotti

"Or is it a gap between super talents in the amateur (mandolin) world
     versus the trained musician in the (mandolin) concert field."


I wonder if these amateurs, or the carved top players, just haven't become accustomed to the sounds of their F and A style mandolins. Perhaps, from their point of view, the classical pieces they play sound great. It comes down to the tone and flavors they have grown to love. Just a thought. John

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## Bob A

As John says, it is the sound you imprinted on that they've grown to love. There's no question that the bowlback sound is a different animal than the F5 sound. Not better, not worse, but different. Of course the playing characteristics are different too, with lighter stringing, smaller frets and a shorter scale.

Still, insofar as the mandolin encompasses such a broad spectrum of design and sound, it's a shame to be too insular about it. I love my F4; I love my bowlbacks. I would, at this point, not care to choose between them.

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## margora

Re: flatback/carved back versus roundback. I play classical mandolin on both (a Collings A model versus various bowlbacks). The sound is very different, but I enjoy both. Personally, I think the "formal training" bit (as per Alex's comment) is a red herring (or 95 percent thereof). Certainly in the guitar world, there are any number of classical guitarists with "formal training" who have few relevant musical skills (such as the ability to play in time in an ensemble and follow a conductor or, my pet peeve, being able to sight read accurately even single lines, much less more complex material). I haven't heard Gertrud Troester play on a flatback or carved back mandolin, but I suspect she would sound more or less just like herself. Ditto Marilyn Mair (whom I have heard up close, always a carved back, and sounds just fine). Julian Bream once remarked that he could give a concert on a cheap Yamaha and no one (except maybe him) would know the difference. It is easy, in other words, to make too much of the instrument as opposed to the performer. However, I also suspect many flat or carved back players in the US would enjoy playing a bowlback if, in fact, it were as easy to buy a really good one as, say, your average Collings or Gibson (which is most definitely not the case). We in this group enjoy the chase (i.e. Ebay) but most professional musicians I know are too busy.

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## vkioulaphides

Well, if A. it stays this low, B. the reserve is, oh... $50, AND (most important) C. you know of a decent and affordable luthier:

http://cgi.netscape.ebay.com/ws....63&rd=1

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## vkioulaphides

OK, friends: Sold at $86, hopefully to some denizen of the Café. OK... who is it, now? #

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## Jim Garber

I was bidding and was half-intending to win this, but I realized at the last moment that I have a pile of stuff to be fixed either by me or those more-qualified so I let it go.

I have a Waldo coming and a cylinder back Vega. Is enough enough? Nah!

Jim

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## Eugene

I was actually going to pursue this one...and completely forgot to do so. Ah well...

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## Eugene

This certainly is the fanciest Weymann I've seen. Mandoluter, where are you?

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

At least it looks like we have some evidence that Bill played and knew how a bowlback sounded (Plamen will be delighted) !

A Puglisi Reale & Figli has come up for auction. View it at
Ebay USA Web site.


Cheers, 

Alex

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## Bob A

coasttocoastbooks has been hoovering mandolins to quite an extent of late. Given his 3400+ ebay transactions, when does he get to play?

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## Jim Garber

Yes, I have also noticed coast2coastbooks. I emailed him/her. I think they are serious booksellers...and mandolin buyers. Maybe they are cornering the bowlback market. Could be the next big thing, eh.

Hold onto your mandolins, folks. Serious investment potential.  

Jim

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## Hubert Angaiak

I was going to start another topic, but maybe it belongs here. After looking at the fancy Weymann it made me wonder about how it sounded. Was is the fashion of the era to have something as fancy as that? did the tone matter during that time?

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## Martin Jonas

I have to say that I find such elaborate decoration as on the Weymann rather off-putting. I much prefer the plainer models (and luckily my Ceccherini is). Presumably the decorated ones were substantially more expensive at the time. What is the consensus on sound -- were they generally made with greater care and sounded better than the entry-level ones or is it just looks?

Martin
PS: I have also noticed coast2coastbooks bidding on every bowlback going -- they had a bid for my Ceccherini as well.

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## Bob A

Martin, I've recently acquired an over-the-top decorated Ceccherini. I have to say that it is gorgeous, though not perhaps to everyone's taste (if taste can even be used in this context). It looks like an ornate rococo jewel box.

It plays well: better, perhaps, than one might expect. It is inhibiting to play on, though; one doesn't wish to contribute to the entropy of such a piece. This, in my opinion, is the bigest drawback to this sort of thig. And, of course, the general reluctance to expose it to the rigors of travel and exposure to the masses. I put my kneebreeches on, powder my wig, and confine my playing to the drawing-rooms of the elite. Failing to find that particular venue, it's solo time in the living room for the Ceccerini and me.

My experience is that the midlevel instruments of the Italian makers are the most satisfying overall for real-world use.

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Hubert and BobA,

Too much decoration inlay and applications on the soundboard will of course be of influence to the sound. Therefore the tops of the ´Soloist models´ by the best mandolin makers are usually plain and not decorated. The best example here is Luigi Embergher.


Best, 

Alex

PS. BobA, did you buy your Pecoraro/Embergher blind, or did you see it pictured first?

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## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"My experience is that the midlevel instruments of the Italian makers are the most satisfying overall for real-world use."

I can think of no more succinct way of putting this. Yes, indeed. Maybe my bias comes from a rather, ehm... plebeian view of the "real" world then again, I'm no Roman and attach no negative connotation to something Every(wo)man can have and use to good effect.

I only reserve judgment, strictly on grounds of my own ignorance, on some similar statement regarding mid-level, vintage _American_ instruments. I would suspect (and, by Jove, some day will find out) that such instruments as plain but well-built Vegas are no less suitable for this brave, "real" world than their Italian counterparts.

Alas, however, my "discovering America" will have to wait past this year; things have managed once again to get in the way. But, then again, there is a tangible pleasure in anticipation...

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## Bob A

Alex, it was to have been an Embergher; but there was a mixup between the two British dealers who bought the collection, and the E escaped. They said the Pecoraro was an excellent instrument, and even though it did not have the nifty "scorpion" peghead, it looked pretty nice, so I committed to purchase. I'm not disappointed in anything except in not having the curly bit.

Victor, the finest American bowlback instrument I've ever played is my Vega Pettine Special. Its level of ornament is not super high - decorative fleurs-de-lis in the unbound fretboard; pearl around soundhole and binding; and a nice inlaid lyre in the pickguard. (Vega is to be complemented in keeping the inlaid ornamentation on the bass side of the pickguard: it makes little sense to me to have it abused by fingernails down in the treble).

 This Pettine is capable of large excursions of decibel, from pp to ff anyway, without breaking up or sounding stressed. It has far more delicacy and levels of expression than I can coax from it. It is really too much of a good thing for a hack like me,

The Pecoraro is a different bird. It seems sonically neutral. If you want effects, you have to have the technique to bring them out. It too can be a lapcannon; of course I string it with a bit heavier (consort) string set.

Please don't take my word for gospel on any of this - it's just the vague imressions of a mediocre player.

I'd love to have your impressions of my Stahl/Larson bros mando. It'd be too ornate for your tastes, but the sound is something else. Very "American" - brash, loud, in your face. No real subtlety. But charming nevertheless, in its own way.

I sometimes envy Peter his Spartan ethic; but I'd be hard pressed to say "OK, I don't want to keep this one". They're all a gas.

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## pklima

> I sometimes envy Peter his Spartan ethic; but I'd be hard pressed to say "OK, I don't want to keep this one". They're all a gas.


I'm from Cracow, not Sparta. There's a local legend that the nation of Scotland was created when the spendthrifts were kicked out of Cracow. Perhaps that explains something.

Actually, I look forward to settling down and being finally able to relax my "no two instruments with the same tuning" rule. I'll probably still end up playing bass 90% of the time (especially in public) but such is a bassist's life. Nobody ever says "leave the bass at home and bring your banjo".

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## Jim Garber

A nice-looking Vega style 2 just came on eBay.

Jim

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## Bob A

Carlo M sent me (and doubtless many of you as well) an email with photos of the instrument he makes. I inquired the price: 3500 euros.

An attractive instrument nonetheless. Anyone ever played one?

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## Alex Timmerman

And another nice light-weight Raffaele Calace from 1914: 

Click here to view at eBay Germany´s #Webpage.


Best,

Alex

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## Jim Garber

Here is an interesting bowlback, nice-looking marquetry on the back from Milan, but not a Milanese mandolino.

Strangest thing is that it has ivory frets. Has anyone seen that on a steel string instrument? I can't imagine that they would last all that long. I have seen the ivory frets on some instruments, but those are usually the ones that extend onto the soundboard.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Oh, dunno... that marquetry weirds _me_ out...  

Also, relating to the Calace Alex refers to: Hmm... it might be the perspective from which the seller shot these pictures but the bowl seems awfully, ehm... bulbous, awfully stout in general proportion to the instrument, almost modern-German-like; perhaps it is also the few and consequently very wide staves that exaggerate this impression.

Still, I would prefer stout and plain to checkerboard-ridden. But that, again, is apples and oranges...

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## Arto

Hi Alex,

do you think the German eBay´s Calace has original armrest? Looks strange (and rather ugly) to me.

Just curious (= I´m not going to bid ;-),
Arto

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## Bob A

I'm pretty certain that the armrest is a later addon to the Calace. I think the photo angle makes it out to be bulbulouser than it is. Too bad the seller isn't interested in shipping outside Germany. I'd certainly like a decent teens or twenties Calace. Anyone know of one outside the CM orbit?

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Arto,

This armrest is indeed to big (plump) for the mandolin and was not placed on it by the luthiers of the Calace firm. In fact this Calace orchestra mandolin model was designed without an armrest. 


Best, 

Alex

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## Eugene

I'd wager this was not intended as a "player's" instrument for a working-class musician: YIKES!

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Eugene,


Jipp, it´s better to look at this 1899 Vinaccia at eBay France.


Greetings, 

Alex

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## pklima

> I'd wager this was not intended as a "player's" instrument for a working-class musician: YIKES!


Yikes, indeed!

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## Jim Garber

Yes, that overly ornate thing -- i guess it is a mandolino of some sort but more likley a wall hanger. I breath easily when I see that Vinaccia.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

At eBay Webpage England  the diffucult to find LP recording of Keith Harris.

Maybe of interest for one here at the board.

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## Jim Garber

What ever happened to Keith Harris? I think I vaguely heard that he came down with a dread disease that stopped his playing.

I thought about that LP but the postage to the US would be more than the bid price.

Jim

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## Eugene

> What ever happened to Keith Harris? I think I vaguely heard that he came down with a dread disease that stopped his playing.


Indeed. He's conducting a mandolin orchestra in Germany now. The ex-guitar teacher of a German friend of mine who now lives here in Ohio is playing with Mr. Harris's orchestra. I can ask her for details if somebody else doesn't beat me to posting a few.

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jim & Eugene, 


Jim you are right; Keith suffers from a muscle disease and stopped because of that with performing. His activities concerning conducting and teaching however have been and still are fantastic and of the highest level. 

To name a few orchestras he works and/or worked with here some names: The European Youth Orchestra of the EGMA; The Louisville Mandolin Orchestra (US); The Mandolin Orchestra of Patras (Greece); The Hessischen Zupforchester (Germany) and The Sydney Mandolin Orchestra. # 

I remember, accompanying Sebastiaan de Grebber who had subscribed to a day-course lead by Keith, that he - as he told me afterwards - immediately saw the possibilities of young Sebastiaan (than only about 10 years old). Personally I think that meeting with Keith was very important. We knew of course his fine playing from the LP record (mentioned above) but to really talk with- and learn from him was absolutely a great experience. 

Later the two of us met Keith - always in great friendship - on several occasions like the prestigious International ´Raffaele Calace Concorso per Mandolino Solo´ in Bologna 2000 (organized by the FMI (Federazione Mandolinistica Italiana) & the EGMA (the European Guitar and Mandolin Association) where Sebastiaan was the youngest amongst the finalists and last year when our Mandolin Orchestra ´HET CONSORT´ gave a performance during the International Concours in Koslar (Germany).

So Keith is still quite busy and an esteemed person in the Mandolin World. 

Besides the Mandolin/Piano record Keith Harris also made a recording of Hummel´s Mandolin Concerto accompanied by the State Chamber Orchestra of Zilina. 


Greetings,

Alex


To learn more about the activities of Keith Harris read for instance this on the Webpage of the Louisville Mandolin Orchestra and Google with +Keith Harris +mandolin. I´m sure you will find out more.

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## Jim Garber

Yet another, but beautiful in its simplicity, Calace.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim And BobA (and others),

I whould say: That´s one to go for!

All original (except for the bridge) and it appears to be in fine and playing condition. I owe a 1914 example of this very same model that both of you (I know you have the CD) can hear on HET CONSORT 1st Aranci in Fiore CD (track 5 ´Rondo´ Op.127 by Raffaele Calace and track 9-10 ´Adagio & Allegro´ by Carlo Malizia, both works are for Mandolin and Mand. Orchestra) played by Sebastiaan de Grebber. #

For others who like to hear this Calace model click here and than on the track numbers of The CONSORT Sample Webpage.


It is of course very much a matter of taste, but this model is probably one of the finest in sound and appearence of that time. Not so heavy build and with a brilliant, clear well balanced sound. Personally I like this model, the Raffaele Calace ´900 Brevettato´ and the ´light headed´ version of the Calace ´Classico´ very much.


Greetings,

Alex

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## Martin Jonas

I'm intrigued by the two holes in front of the bridge. My German-built 1920s/30s Majestic (roundhole Portuguese-style) also has two holes of similar size, originally with inserts similar to those on the Calace. However, on the Majestic, they are well away from the bridge off to one side, about halfway between the bridge and the rim on the bass side. Are they a Calace invention? Anybody know what the reasoning for their presence is (same reason for the noble Calace as for my pedestrian Majestic)?

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

Martin, there have been _speculative_ discussions of this before but, alas, no substantive, definitive answers.

Visually, of course, the dots are quite pleasing and, by way of a marker-like function, they demarcate (roughly) the desired positioning of the bridge in relation, that is, to where they themselves are located on the top. 

Acoustically, I doubt that they contribute in any significant way to projection; I just cannot see why/how they would. Someone (I forget who right now) even speculated that there might have existed some sort of add-on mute at some point, whose two prongs were to be inserted in the two holes and thus supported, in contact with the bridge I find this rather far-fetched, to say the least.

Hey, I may be ignorant, but at least I'm also skeptical!   (I suppose that beats ignorant and _gullible_)

My assessment, in one word, would be: Decorative. Then again, I am always happy to be corrected, and thereby educated.

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## Arto

Hi Alex,
what do you mean by "light headed" version of Calace Classico? Type A with a slotted (not solid) headstock, or the plainer styles B-D with the simpler headstock?

Thanks for your very interesting comments above.
greetings, Arto

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## Bob A

Yet another Calace on ebay. The latest looks in need of restoration; the one linked above still has no bids, but a lot of email to seller.

I'm contemplating a bid on the Aussie instrument, but I'm not interested in a bidding war with anyone on this site. If anyone here has their heart set on it maybe we should talk offline?

Frankly, I wish there were enough of these things around that one could just go and buy one.

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Arto,

I will look if I can find an image of the headstock of the ´light headed´ version of the Calace ´Classico´ for you.


Best,

Alex.

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## Jim Garber

This is a Classico A from a Japanese site.

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## Jim Garber

Speaking of "light-headed," here is a headless 1898 Vinaccia. This will proib go for a few hundred as is.

The Calace in bad shape went for over $600.

Jim

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## Marc

Looking at this Vinaccia prompts a question. I am currently fixing up a Vinaccia clone (D'Isanto) very similar to this Vinaccia. It has the same four ivory/bone pegs to secure the strings at the bottom of the body. However there appears to be nothing to stop the strings cutting into the wood at the edge of the bowl, yet there is no evidence to show this has happened before. Should there be a small metal piece here, or perhaps a piece of felt under the strings? Any suggestions?
Marc
www.belmando.com

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## Martin Jonas

The headless Vinaccia went for $260. #While that's about the same as I paid for my playable Ceccherini, I feel that the seller did himself a disservice by not realising that he had a Vinaccia -- the only way to find out was to look at the photo of the label, which quite clearly said "Vinaccia" but from which the seller only took the prefix "Fratelli". #Still, that's some serious restoring to do to fit a headstock. #The nut still seems to be there, so maybe it's possible to keep the existing neck and "just" splice on a new headstock, but even so it seems like a vast amount of work with uncertain outcome (the remaining neck might be splintered and/or bent).

Martin

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Marc,

For this model with ivory/bone pegs to secure the (light) strings at the bottom of the body, the hard ivory/ivorite or bone outer lining (the edge) of the soundboard was seen as sufficient.

Greetings,

Alex

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## Jim Garber

Here is an interesting museum page. Unfortinately there is little info on each one.

Esp unusual is the "19th rosewood back# ribs into the neck."

Scary is the "Rare 16 string mandolin C1860"

Jim

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## Marc

Hi Alex,
the edge of the soundboard on my instrument is rosewood. This itself may be hard enough to resist the cutting power of the strings to some extent, however it shows no indication that the strings have been cutting into it in the past. There is some fret wear so I know the instrument has been strung and played for some of its 117 years. 
I wondered if there is some small metal plate -perhaps tortoiseshell- missing (although there is no indication that there was ever such a thing on the instrument)? 
Marc

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## Jim Garber

> The headless Vinaccia went for $260. #While that's about the same as I paid for my playable Ceccherini, I feel that the seller did himself a disservice by not realising that he had a Vinaccia -- the only way to find out was to look at the photo of the label, which quite clearly said "Vinaccia" but from which the seller only took the prefix "Fratelli".


I figured that the seller was clueless but the bidders were not. Anyone can see who made that one, or at least who made the label.

I think the general rule of thumb is that a basket case instrument like this would prob be worht not more than half of what the same instrument would be worth if it were intact. A competent luthier would prob charge about $1000 or more to restore this to playability. Hard to say if it would be worth it. Who know what else is wrong with it. I would take the Ceccherini over this one at that price.

Jim

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## Marc

I've got to agree with Jim on this. If this mandolin were just an unnamed basket case it would probably have fetched little more than 50 dollars at best for a project piece for someone starting out in instrument repairs. Its the Vinaccia name that makes the difference. I've even seen a Vinaccia with only a fragment of the label left (and not the bit that said 'Vinaccia'on it but just the words 'Fratelli' and part of the address) fetch good money because the bidder knew what he was buying.

The bidders on ebay are a pretty expert bunch and I've come to the conclusion that you rarely get a bargain on ebay - the competition from other knowledgable bidders is too great! I've just strung up a Pasquale Angara & Pasquale D'Isanto (Allievi di Vinaccia) dating from 1887 - I paid £20 from an antique/junk shop in Plymouth - I'd have paid a lot more on ebay!
Marc
www.belmando.com

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## Jim Garber

Marc:
I found this Angara e D'Isanto in my jpeg collection. It sold on eBay last year. I am not sure what the final was but I am sure it was considerably more than £20.

There is some sort of bone (?) piece where the strings go over the edge of the top from the tailpiece. I am not sure if that is original or added by an owner. Then again, it could be a piece of felt. It is difficult to tell from the photo.

Jim

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## Marc

Thanks Jim, that's very useful - I was sure there must be something to defend against the strings biting in, 'though as you say it's hard to tell if it's bone or felt. My instrument is very similar except it has the classic Vinaccia style pearl/ebony dots either side of the bridge and may be slightly narrower in the width of the body although it's hard to tell.
Marc

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## Martin Jonas

> I figured that the seller was clueless but the bidders were not. Anyone can see who made that one, or at least who made the label.
> ...
> I would take the Ceccherini over this one at that price.


I'm sure that the bidders knew exactly what they were bidding on -- no-name wrecks don't make that sort of money. I'm just thinking that several potential bidders never looked at the photos of the label because the description and the thumbnail photo would have been really off-putting for all but the most-dedicated.

I certainly don't think I'd swap with the Ceccherini (which keeps improving in tone -- I'm ever more awestruck the more I play it).

Martin

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## Marc

Yes, I like uneducated sellers the most - your best chance of a bargain is where most people won't have looked. For example I bought my Vega Pettine Special on the rebound after having narrowly missed an Embergher concert model (fluted ribs scroll headstock etc) which sold for around 550 dollars if I remember rightly. It had been listed as a lute and didn't show up at all as a 'mandolin' - it was only the Embergher searchword that pulled it up. I seem to think the winning bidder was Max McCollough, who many here will know.
Marc

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## Jim Garber

The other problem on eBay is spelling. Think of quite a few variations on Embergher, for instance. There is a seller who seems to have acquired an large quantity of instruments by Joseph Bohmann but who lists every mandolin and violin as being made by Bowman. You would think he would look at the label once.

Then of course, there are the ubiquitous Fratelli mandolins  

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Marc:
This Angara & Disanto just came up on eBay. The seller will only ship to the UK. Looks pretty good but there is a strange tailpiece cover. I would guess that that was an addition by the owner so that he would not get his cuff caught on the string ends. it looks sort of plastic and not the sort of substance that would be in existence in 1891.

Jim

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## Eugene

I don't think that bit of white (I'd guess bone) on the D'Isanto above is original; it looks rather amateurishly shaped and doesn't look like the typical method for doing such things. #Very early on (from the first Neapolitan instruments into the mid to late 1800s), there was often an inlaid plate of pearl in mastic, ivory, or some hardwood at the butt to protect the table as the strings came off the hitch pins and over the top (see attached picture of my anonymous ca. 1835-40 French instrument, possibly from the Eulry shop). #By the late 1800s, as steel strings became more prevalent, those mandolins that still employed ivory hitch pins often had a little metal plate with a 90-degree bend in it to sit along the edge of the table and protect it from the bite of strings. It simply sat there, no formal "installation," held by string tension. #By way of example, it seems that Stridente made most of their instruments this way. #It looks like the UK D'Isanto on eBay has such a plate hiding under the probably non-original bit of plastic/celluloid. #Unfortunately, such metal plates would be even more prone to loss than tailpiece covers. #I understand fabricating metal with a bend along a curve is not an easy one-off type job.

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## Eugene

What's the story with this character? I assumed it was a German knock-off of Embergher's orchestral instruments and intended to throw a couple hundred at it. In the last moments of the auction, well, it shot to over US$700.

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## Jim Garber

Here another Vinaccia . This one looks like a handyman's special. The label (different from others I have seen) looks like it says 1904 or 1907.

Looks like it says "Provveditori di S.M. La Regina Margherita" It seem sot be signed by someone named Vinaccia, tho.

Any clues on this one. I wonder if Carlo M will end up with it.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Joe Todaro posted this notice about his South American-made bowlback. Looks interesting, esp since the bowl is carved out of a solid piece of wood. The price is a little high for my tastes. Still, I wouldn't mind trying one.

This is a guy who imports instruments from Bolivia. I bought a nice charango from him at the Philadelphia Guitar show some years ago.

Jim

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## Bob A

Hello all. Just back from a weekend at the old homestead in Rochester NY. Stopped in to Bernunzio's (I'm consigning a few instruments to alleviate the fiscal hit for recent bowlback excess) and he gifted me with a brick of Black Diamond strings. I wanted to point this out to youall because of the price, though they're not bowlback-suitable. (At least the ones I got aren't. Not sure if he has other types). It was a box of 12 sets of bronze strings, 0.011., 0.014, 0.025, 0.039. I think the set number was 764. But he's putting them on ebay for something like 17/box, which is a buck and a half a set. So if you need cheap strings for your Gibsons, here's a chance to score a lifetime supply.

Saw the (ad for) the Vinaccia Jim mentions. Looks like poor photography covers a multitude of sins. Carlo is welcome to the restoration job.

Also saw (back to Bernunzio again) the Epiphone bowlback mandola he mentions in his site. A fascinating thing: the neck seems to have a central portion that is laminated out of several contrasting slices of wood, light/dark, reminiscent of the Framus things, though not nearly so extensive - it comprises only the central third of the neck. Nice big bowl, rosewood apparently, and the asymmetric, diverging braces. Two problems: first, it looks like it was dropped on the tailpiece, which crushed the binding at the t'piece, about an inch in extent. It only seems to go as far as the binding - table intact. Second, the final brace, closest to the t'piece, has been knocked loose. I don't think John or his repairperson is up to the task of getting in there and gluing it back. This is a job for someone who has done this sort of thing before, or perhaps a midget. I suspect it is a quality piece, and certainly rare. I bring it to your attention thinking that it might find a home with one of us. (I didn't spend much time examining it; seemed inappropriate to get mandolalust even as I attempt to claw out of the hole I've jumped in chasing the elusive mandolin).

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## Plamen Ivanov

Hello!

Here are some more mandolins. I don`t think they are "of note" in terms of nice sounding, nice looking, etc. but some of them are strange at least.

Good luck!

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## Martin Jonas

> Marc:
> This Angara & Disanto just came up on eBay. The seller will only ship to the UK. Looks pretty good but there is a strange tailpiece cover. I would guess that that was an addition by the owner so that he would not get his cuff caught on the string ends. it looks sort of plastic and not the sort of substance that would be in existence in 1891.


This one has now been withdrawn from sale, which is a pity as I was thinking about bidding on it as a gift for my mother. Presumably someone made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

Ah, Martin, you see how pernicious MAS can be! You get the Ceccherini; you get hooked on the sweet, old, Neapolitan sound; you think: "There is more to life than Miroglio"; you think of your mother; "what if?" you imagine... The rest is history, dreadful history. # 

Victor (who is taking a mandolin as a gift to his mother-in-law in a couple of weeks, on the occasion of her 80th birthday)

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## Jim Garber

That is funny. I just emailed the seller last night to see if he would reconsider shipping to US. Iwasn;t all that serious tho and would defer to you, Martin. 

You might check with the seller anyway. Sometimes there are other reasons he may have stopped the auction. Perhaps he got nervous that there weren't enough bids.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello, 

At eBay France a nice early 20th century De Meglio style mandolin with all original decorations made by Luigi Dosio atelier.

Looks like a fine mandolin.


Greetings, 

Alex

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## Martin Jonas

Not sure whether this deMeglio at Ebay UK has been mentioned yet. #The buyer is looking for a fixed "Buy It Now" price of 300 Pounds, with no alternative auction option. #Unlike most of the ones seen here, this one still has its tortoiseshell/inlay tailpiece cover (at least I assume it's original, as the inlay seems to match the pickguard). #It looks very clean and light, but on the photos, the bridge looks to be balancing right on the cant and there is a visible mark on the top further forward, presumably the original bridge location. #Is this a smudge between tailpiece and bridge, or a patent brand?

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

Yes, the tailpiece cover looks original; my 1897 de Meglio has it, too. Also, yes, the "smudge" is presumably the indented patent. The position of the bridge, however, (in relation to the cant) makes one wonder. 

To clarify my point: The bridge on my de Meglio (and many other vintage instruments) is also a bit further down from the "ghost", original position; a millimeter or two at the most. In this case, however, the bridge is WAAAAAAAY out of place. Is it, then, a lousy setup or a compromise for a severely impaired instrument?

Looks very nice and clean. I would still ask the seller a couple of salient questions before wiring GBP300 his way...

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello martinjonas and Victor,

It looks like e very nice instrument and like the one at eBay France, all decorations are original. there is one alteration and that is the bone sadle in the bridge. This whould have been bronce if original. For the rest it looks great with it´s nice 20 frets fingerboard.

The bridge is as you noticed way out of it´s place. Perhaps the seller has just fixed it up for the photo. Also when strung with flatwound strings - as in this case - the swinging stringlength needs to be longer a few milimetres. Whatever the case might be; as far as I can see from the images shown, I don´t think there is any need for the bridge to be where it is now.


Greetings, 

Alex

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## Martin Jonas

Actually, I was just putting this in the "Bowlbacks of Note" thread to point it out to others -- I'm not seriously considering buying it. #300 Pounds would be a good price for a good de Meglio, I guess, but too risky for an eBay purchase of an old mandolin. #The d'Isanto was at around 40 Pounds when it was withdrawn and even though it would no doubt have gone up quite a bit (maybe to 120 to 150 Pounds), it would have been a different proposition. #After all, neither I nor my mother have an actual shortage of mandolins...

Martin

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## Dolamon

A Mandolin of "Note" - well, at least different ... Scott has this  Listed in Eye Candy .It is a bit off but - an electric Neopolitan? Just in case you get stuck in a rowdy, cavernous bistro and can't be heard above the clink of glass and laughter. 

(well - it might happen)

Scroll over the Mandolin and click - it is in Italian but ...

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## pklima

Hey, I've played Neapolitans through fuzz pedals before. I suppose there's a market for e-Neapolitans among Mediterranean folk-rockers.

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## Jim Garber

Here #is something that looks like a mandolin and costs about what the equiv would. You can't even play the thing. Oh well. Cute and pretty detailed, tho.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

This basket-case F. Calace mandolin just came on eBay. I am not familiar with this member of the Calace family. Any clue to age? I bet this will go for $200 or more, as is.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Jim, I suspect (and this is ONLY a guess) that the upper-case "F." is meant to be mentally attached to the lower-case "lli" above a common Italian abbreviation for "Fratelli" = brothers. Just my guess.

I would not bid on something in this state, though.

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## Jim Garber

Of course... no excuse for my ignorance... and I didn't see that "lli" above the F on the tailpiece. "Ah, yes, yet another example of those mandolins made by the prodigious Fratelli Brothers..."  

In any case, any clue as to the vintage of this poor mandolin. 

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

I'd think that the _other_ brother would have been Nicola (later grudgingly renamed by himself Nicola Turturro), the "lesser" brother in comparison to The Great Raffaele. Others might know better... I am not sure about the date of Nicola's emigration to the States.

No excuses needed; in fact, I have a relevant, historical trivium for you: The type of long-barrel, front-loading rifle Greeks used in their revolution against the Ottoman Turks is commonly known, to this day, as "karyofíli", as if it were a noun, neutral gender, just like any other. 

The provenance of said rifles, however, is quite enlightening on this otherwise etymologically inscrutable word: These rifles were either manufactured by, or at least packaged in Italy, as Greek expatriots from all around Europe would raise money for their rebel brothers to bear arms. The rifles would then arrive secretly in Greece in wooden cases bearing the brand name of the Italian shipping firm. The actual, last name of the business owner was impossible to pronounce in Greek, or too long, or too difficult to decipher; the company-name, however, conveniently ended with the business owner's #*first* name, plus the suffix *e figli*. For example, if the full company-name had been "Armi da caccia, pistole, ecc., ecc., ecc... Cagliostri _Carlo e figli_ " the Greeks, unable to read the Roman alphabet and having heard the name only once, from the illiterate stevedores unloading the crates with the rifles, only retained... Karyofíli, from "Carlo e figli" = Carlo & Sons.

Not to mention Vivaldi's scoring for _corni di salmo_ ("psalm horns"?!?), which stems however from an Italian mispronunciation of the French _chalumeau_ (reed), or many other such linguistic mysteries.

But I digress worse than other times, I'm afraid. # 

Still, no go on the bid, not from me.

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## Jim Garber

> Still, no go on the bid, not from me.


Thanks, Victor for the word origin story. I love that stuff. I would only bid on it to say I have a vintage Calace and hopefully to restore it somehow or save it from wallhanger status. As I said, I doubt it will go for flea market pricing.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"... I doubt it will go for flea market pricing."

Or maybe it will... who knows? 

Truth be told, Jim, considering how happier and happier by the day I am with my nearly-newborn Calace, I simply have no appetite for a vintage piece with such enormous reconstructive needs however low the winning bid might be.

Say you get this for, uhm... $50. Just say... What then? Pull the top off, rebuild it from within, rebrace, reglue everything, then reposition it on the bowl which, of course, would necessitate redoing all the intricate binding work then all the requisite work on the fingerboard, then the final, *highly questionable* setup? (... on which, of course, the very playability of the instrument and any qualitative, sounding-value will be tested)

I don't know, Jim... The way you speak of salvaging instruments makes this sound (to me, at least) as if this is YOUR own take on pilgrimage (as per the related thread).  

Still, sainthood is lonely, tedious, and largely ineffectual.

Yours, 

The Joyful Heathen

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## Jim Garber

Frankly, Victor, you are right. The last thing I need is another basket-case mandolin. I was just expressing my frustration at lacking a decent vintage Italian bowlback -- the incessant collector in me. 

Back to practicing... as my wife says, you can only play one mandolin at a time.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Your wife is a practical woman most are. Not to mention that time is of necessity precious little; not to mention that much higher musical returns are to be had by diligent practice (on ANY decent, playable instrument) than by collecting several of them; not to mention, after all, that _vita brevis_ bit...

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## Bob A

"Lonely, tedious and largely ineffectual" might well serve for my epitaph. I fear that it will not be enough to bring me to the company of the saints.

Still, I've strayed not once or twice into the path of accumulation. It is said that a fool who persisits in his folly may gain wisdom. Certainly he will gain, among other items, heaps of musical instruments.

I've had occasion to mention that I've learned much from handling a fair cross-section of such; whether it will have been enough to justify my follies is problematic, and ultimately doubtful. But it has been amusing. 

Being a charter member of the Mandolin Rescue League has its drawbacks, to be sure, but it also has a few satisfactions. (Very few, and they long delayed). I hope to be able to report favorably on a few by and by. 

Nevertheless, too much of a good thing can still be too much. I embody Jim's pain in myself. Yet I have a feeling that the scales have fallen from my fingers, if not my eyes, and I am on the threshold of an idea. It's too early to get specific, but perhaps in few months the thing will be ripe enough to serve without opprobrium.

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## vkioulaphides

I should think that opprobrium is altogether foreign in such congenial a circle as this. On the other hand, each one of us being a point on the perimeter of the same circle, we naturally have different points of view and WILDLY divergent tangents!

So... has anyone amongst us actually acquired any of the fine instruments mentioned on this thread? 

*insert public confession HERE*

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## Bob A

Public Confession:

Yes, the Calace in Australia is (hopefully) enroute to what we might as well call Bob's Bowl-O-Rama. One can only hope it's worth the misery of acquisition. It was a terrible behind the scenes struggle, with the former owner besieged by frantic and reportedly increasingly vitriolic and threatening emails. Darn if it didn't feel like a chase for the Maltese Falcon or something; so far no corpses scattering the landscape, and few sinister characters lurking about, but then I've yet to receive the package.

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## Martin Jonas

Of course (as everybody here is probably fed up with reading about), I got the Ceccherini that I first heard about in this thread. No stories of skulldiggery from my ebay purchase -- the fanatics stick with the grand marquee name instead (luckily).

Martin
(off to Piraeus on Tuesday for a couple of days of client relations -- let's see if I come across any rebetiko...)

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## Bob A

Ebay has a 33rpm recording of Pettine doing what he does best. Quality might not be the best. Still, someone here might be interested. If copyright issues are not a prob, a cd would be welcomed by many, I'm sure.

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## John Bertotti

So Jim are you going to bid on this F. Calace mandolin you posted earlier. I might. I'm undecided at the moment but think it would be a great project piece. John

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## vkioulaphides

Enjoy Piraeus, Martin! 

If you get a chance and although you may not be in the pangs of MAS right now you may want to pay a visit to Christos Spourdalakis' shop; a true master-luthier!

You will certainly find some bouzouki-clubs in Piraeus. Fortunately for some people, UNfortunately for others, Piraeus is hardly the seedy, grimy, funky harbor it was in the 1920's and '30's; a few draconian mayors later, it is now a bustling metropolis, with over 5,000 vessels docked in its multiplex ports on any given day. Hardly the town Vamvakáris, Bátis, and Máthesis wrote songs about...

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## Jim Garber

John:
 You should bid on it if you want. I have further pics from the seller. The top is split along the divide and there is also some warping/ The top may have to be replaced altogether, tho possibly not. I can send you the pics, if you like. I would have to hire a ;luthier to restore it anyway, so prob not worth it for me.

If it stays at that low price it might be a steal for you or opther luthier. But it won't stay there. The seller said he was inundated with emails.
Jim

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## Jim Garber

> Ebay has a 33rpm recording of Pettine doing what he does best. Quality might not be the best. Still, someone here might be interested. If copyright issues are not a prob, a cd would be welcomed by many, I'm sure.


I have that LP and I know Richard W has one and possibly someone else. It is interesting but not Pettine at his height. Worth having tho. 

I think Pettine's son is still selling either the LP or Cassette copies of it.

Jim

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## John Bertotti

Well Jim my wife pointed out I should finish the ones I've started before moving on to a restoration and she's actually right. Maybe next time around I'll jump in, unless of course the bidding this time doesn't go nuts. Remains to be seen. I'm actually more interested in a new Calace now that I've seen the web site posted elsewhere. Anyone here ever play a new one? The big question is are they worth the money heck what do they go for? It might be more cost effective to go with the restyle Calace that the man from oldmandolins dot com makes. His sound clip sounded good. John

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## Bob A

John, if it stays cheap, you ought to consider getting it just for the ability to dissect and study the construction(I was tempted to bid just for the bridge, but it seems too ghoulish to buy a Calace for parts).

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## John Bertotti

I probably will but I don't know if the limit I set for myself will be high enough for it. My wife doesn't care if I do as long as it doesn't interfere with the costs for a adoption we are starting. Thanks John

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## vkioulaphides

John, I have a virtually brand-new Calace, built for and delivered to me in March 2004. The model is No. 26, the second-from-the-bottom. I have discussed this instrument in great detail elsewhere; I don't know, however, whether those threads are still alive on the board.

In short: I am very happy with it: excellent intonation, good, solid construction, nice, even sound across all registers, warm tone... In summary, a very, very nice instrument. I have every reason to expect it to mature and improve in complexity of tone with time.

I would not wish to bore our other MC-friends by reiterating things I have already discussed at length on the board. If, on the other hand, you are interested, please drop me a note via the MC message circuit and I will reply in as much detail as you may require.

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## John Bertotti

Well the rise in bidding has begun. Already approaching my limit so any willing to bid more good luck. I will invest in my own constructions and hopefully a new Calace shortly. The current bid is a bit over 126$ still reasonable I think but not for me. I think a visit to the pawn shops through my travels would be wise though could be a potential bowl back of note just around the corner. Hey dreams do come true from time to time. John

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## Jim Garber

Don't feel too bad, John. I predict $200-300 final bid. We shall see. There are some folks truly hungry for Italian mandolins esp to restore and send to Japan. Carlo M or Marco may end up with it. It least it seem that they can restore them.

Here is a picture of the worst of it. I have a feeling that it will need the top replaced.

Jim

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## John Bertotti

Wow the auction ended early by the seller. He must of had a good offer through emails. I imagine someone wanted it bad! John

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## Jim Garber

I can't understand why sellers do that except if they get what they feel is a high offer... more than they would get otherwise. But, you never do know until the end what will happen. It is very annoying, tho to us watching at home.

I did email the seller to see if he tells me what happened. I would bnot be surprised if it is a dealer from Italy.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Without wishing to make anyone uncomfortable or self-conscious, I think one (perhaps I?) ought to use this thread as a market-study project. 

So many fascinating facets to discuss! When the thread first appeared, I must admit I was veeeeeery skeptical: Would this lead to _more_ market efficiency? (...which I, like many others, hypocritically preach and praise, while at the same time doing my damndest to expoit each and every little market INefficiency.  )

My first, gut-reaction has now receded; my first, negative, fear-driven impression has been shaken. Could this thread actually be a positive impetus in the preservation of a rare (and finite, in the case of vintage instruments) supply of quality instruments? On the THIRD hand (as Jim humorously and correctly!#points out time and again), could this be simply fanning inflation, without any corresponding greater, or better, or broader production? Aha! Time for an academic market-study! (But, ah... those days are soooooo far gone!)

In part, I think a great number of people simply don't know what the heck they're doing. Some of the behavior you see on eBay simply does not make any, ANY sense! Then again, some of people's behavior ANYwhere doesn't make sense, either...

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## Bob A

Well, it's been amply demonstrated that economic behavior, at least in the microeconomy of individual decisionmaking, is far from a rational process. Efficient markets exist only in theory; there's always elements of fear and greed that drive movements. Emotions on a level well below the conscious level are always in play - ask any advertising agency if their aim is to inform the public, and you'll get a response ranging from a blank stare to wild laughter.

I don't think this particular thread has the mass to inflate prices much. We're a small number of maniacs strutting and playing on a world-sized stage. It may help in decision-making on an individual level: info gleaned from members stimulated my recent Calace purchase, insofar as I probably wouldn't have gone so far out on a limb without reassurance that it was a quality piece.

The board as a whole has doubtless stimulated demand, and stoked inflationary trends, but with some 4000 members playing at all levels, it's not too focussed.

Regarding preservation of quality vintage instruments, I'd imagine price pressure on quality items does more to protect the objects in question that any amount of proselytising on the subject. Still, the thread is helpful in bringing worthwhile items to the attention of collectors; but so long as the number of individual purchasers remains limited, and presumably individual finances are also limited, it isn't going to make too much impact on a market that is pretty dominated by European and Japanese players and collectors. What it may well do is increase the pool of worthwhile vintage instruments in North America, by a small yet noticeable number. (I notice, for example, that several of us here each have a sufficient number of quality instruments to skew the local NA market, if they were to come to market suddenly. At any given time, I doubt that there are more than a dozen high-quality bowlbacks in the marketplace at one time, and finding them has become easier, but by no means all that simple).

As far as operating in ignorance is concerned, I'm guilty as charged. I admit to having gleaned a large amount of info on the subject sionce I first started questing for bowlbacks two years ago, but the subject is very broad, and information available readily, specific and in English, is thin on the ground. I had to build a knowledge base thru extensive purchases, as there didn't seem to be any other way short of world travel and monomaniacal pursuit, as well as plaguing the more knowledgeable for information, to get answers to my questions).

I admit it remains a mystery why, having set an auction in motion, a seller might not let the process run its course. I believe the Calace I purchased would have been sold at or above the price I eventually had to pay, given the interest expressed by various parties. I can only attribute the taking off market items like the recent Calace basket-case to ignorance (or fear and greed) by the seller. 

By the way, MY seller informed me that his ostensible reasons for doing the deal included a desire to sell to a fellow musician, a hope that the instrument would find a good home, and irritation with the pressures laid on him by other email offerers. None of this is particularly rational, you'll agree. Nevertheless, I had to raise my bid to a handsome level, well beyond what I might have bid at auction, to secure the instrument. I can't begin to relate my relief that the instrument turned out to be in acceptable condition. 

So long as auction sites provide such an interesting forum for the study of human behavior and economic theory, they'll be of great interest to such folks as psychologists, economists and mandolinists. And other "ists", lost in the mists. Follow the tinkling siren-sound, and you may find mando-paradise, or sink without a trace.

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## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"...MY seller informed me that his ostensible reasons for doing the deal included a desire to sell to a fellow musician, a hope that the instrument would find a good home, and irritation with the pressures laid on him by other email offerers. None of this is particularly rational..."

I suppose not... Yet, group-psychology-oriented economists would still argue that, in his own, personal way, the seller was "deriving utility" (albeit of a very sublime and rarefied nature) from satisfying his conscience-driven priorities, however ostensible those may seem to the skeptics amongst us.

In the immortal words of one of my favorite latter-day Epicurean philosophers (Mick Jagger), it all boils down to _satisfaction_.

If I may share a vintage, personal anecdote with you, my MC-friends:

Back in my teens, I was taking Economics A-Levels (as in the British academic system). Our teacher was a fellow named Mr. Graves#oh, sure, he MUST have had a first name, like John, or Peter, or Paul... But no: It was *MR.* Graves to YOU, ratty, little teenagers! Or, as we called him amongst ourselves, *Sergeant* Graves: Stout, blondish crew-cut, and a craggy, thorny mustache that bristled AT you when he spoke; very, veeeeeerrry British-colonial; well-spoken but not TOO friendly!  

One day, Sarge was talking away, all about "marginal elasticity of demand in INefficient markets" and blah, and blah, and blah... Point is: Of course, ALL markets are inefficient, yet there is considerable, _relative_ difference between, say, eBay, and the open-air flea-markets of Tirana, Albania.

A cocky, oh-so-very-upper-class student suddenly stood up and blurted an unthinkable "Sorry, Sir, but I am not _satisfied_ with your explanation". Sarge stared; he squinted; his mustache bristled, hedgehog-like, at the offender.

After a moment or two, painful for all present, he replied in overly polite, whispered tones: "Sir: This is a class of economics, not a _bordello_. Then, switching gears suddenly from a barely audible whisper to a deafening holler, he added: "WE ARE NOT COMMITTED TO YOUR _SATISFACTION!!!_

It's where one finds it...

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## etbarbaric

&gt;&gt; In the immortal words of one of my favorite latter-day
&gt;&gt; Epicurean philosophers (Mick Jagger), it all boils down
&gt;&gt; to satisfaction.

Indeed... and did Mr. Jagger not attend the London School of Economics prior to becoming a rock star? Me thinks he knew of what he spoke! :-)

You can't always get what you want... but if you try sometimes... 

Eric

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## Jim Garber

Another 1892 Vinaccia, fluted ribs and a little wear all around. The bowlback underground is lurking tho, ready to punce at the last minute...beware!! # 

My prediction: $1500-2000.

Jim

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## Bob A

An early Embergher-labelled instrument is being offered on ebay by Marco Onorati. Looks very basic; peghead is not typical. 

Betcha Jim's Vinaccia goes for more than 3K. But not to me.

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## Jim Garber

> Betcha Jim's Vinaccia goes for more than 3K. But not to me.


Not to me either

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> My prediction: $1500-2000.


Am I good or what? &lt;patting myself on the back&gt; 

Final result: $2,025.00

I should win _something_ for this... # 

Jim

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## Bob A

I'm impressed, Jim. And surprised it didn't go higher.

BTW, the very ornate Vinaccia at Larkstreet has gone down a grand, for those who feel a need for over-the-top flamboyance. Now it can be yours for 4500.

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## Jim Garber

Actually, with the exception of the all-pearl fretboard, it is rather tasteful IMHO. I have certainly seen worse. I must get dfown there toi take a look at those. BION, I have never played a vintage Italian bowlback by one of the big three makers. 

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi,

The "early" + "Embergher-labelled" instrument that still is being offered on ebay has (IMHO) nothing to do with an Embergher. Neither has the label.


Best,

Alex

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## Jim Garber

Alex:
 I did wonder about that "Embergher", esp since it has only low bids. Any clue to what it actually is? 

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Jim:
Something German that one best forgets as soon as possible.

Alex

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## Eugene

HA! My new favorite approach to unplayable, knock-off junk will now be to "best forget as soon as possible."

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## Jim Garber

...or, the title to my new CD: "best forget as soon as possible."  

Has anyone contacted Marco (the seller) to inform him?

Also: is that a repro of an actual Embergher label in this mandolin?

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

As said: the instrument ànd label have nothing to do with Luigi Embergher or the instruments of his atelier.

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## Bob A

Note that the seller has described the instrument as "Labelled Embergher". Certainly true. Cave canem.

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## Alex Timmerman

Yes Bob, I agree.

But when the seller goes on - also in German - with (quote): _I think that this is one of the first mandolin that EMBERGHER maded in ROME (before he worked in Arpino - Frosinone - with his partner Domenico Cerrone); infact it's a very particular Embergher mandolin."_, I think he goes wrong. 


Best,

Alex

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## Jim Garber

Alex:
 Here's an Embergher in your neck of the woods. Have you played that one? 1700 euros.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jim, 

Yes, I know that one. It is a fine Roman mandolin (no label) but - because of a number of differences with Embergher mandolins - in my opinion not made by Luigi Embergher and/or Domenico Cerrone. And also not made by their fellow workers in the Embergher atelier. 

You must know that at the time there were quite a number of Roman luthiers making mandolins in the (successful) Roman style. #
Most likely it was one of the makers of the ´circle´ around Embergher, who was responsible for building this Roman mandolin. 

This particular example was advertised for sale through a music shop in Amsterdam. Eventually the mandolin wasn´t sold and the seller took it back to sell it privately.

So, the web-site is old and still ´on line´ but the mandolin is gone.


Cheers,

Alex

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## Jim Garber

It this a true Vinaccia. Seem like ity may be a deal for those in the UK.

Or is it a fake one...?
Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> It this a true Vinaccia. Seem like ity may be a deal for those in the UK.
> 
> Or is it a fake one...?


Hmmm... I didn't realise any part of the Vinaccia family (Guiseppe? Is that actually a legitimate Vinaccia first name?) made mandolins with quite as few staves. If I count right, it's eleven staves to the bowl. I don't think I've ever seen a top maker mandolin with that few, except possibly for entry level Vegas.

Martin

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## Eugene

Yup, Giuseppe was a flourishing Vinaccia in the early 20th c. The piece does look rather spartan, but my initial reaction is that this is a legit, entry-level piece. The Vinaccias of that time were rather fond of that headstock profile which often sported a cupola in the deep cut of the terminus; I suspect this had one in the form of a simple bone knob that was lost. I can't count the ribs from the images, but, unless the broad outermost rib is truly massive, I suspect this has more than 11. Still, entry level Martins had as few as nine. I have seen Washburns with as few as nine and other L&H brands with less (can anybody with a ca. 1910s L&H catalog confirm?). I'm keen to hear others thoughts on this piece.

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## Bob A

It looks legit to me. I'm no expert, of course, but it makes little sense to counterfeit an entry-level instrument.

For what it's worth, the number of ribs may impact production cost, but it is not necessarily indicative of sonic quality. I have two Italian bowlbacks with low rib counts, a Salsedo and a Mozzani, and both, while Spartan in materials and ornament, are exceptional players' instruments.

Regarding the Roman instrument mentioned above, I made inquiries over a year ago and was told only that it was sold. There seems to be a real prejudice on the part of Continental websites toward providing timely updates, or any sort of useful information other than the occasional tantalising photo of an instrument that is no longer available, or perhaps never was. Most annoying.

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## Martin Jonas

The Guiseppe Vinaccia went for £360. I actually put in a (much lower) bid as well, but at the end there was the usual flurry of bids from Japan and Italy, with the final winner being in Switzerland. Slightly strange, that, considering that the seller specified that he'd only ship to the UK. Maybe he agreed in private e-mail to ship worldwide. Still, on the basis of Eugene's and Bob's opinion, that's probably not a bad price; it's just more than I want to pay right now for another bowlback.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> #I have seen Washburns with as few as nine and other L&H brands with less (can anybody with a ca. 1910s L&H catalog confirm?). #I'm keen to hear others thoughts on this piece.


Eugene:
Smallest number of ribs in all my L&H catalogs is 9. 

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> Slightly strange, that, considering that the seller specified that he'd only ship to the UK. #Maybe he agreed in private e-mail to ship worldwide.


I contacted the seller to see if there was a way i could buy it and have it shipped to a friend in the UK and he said he had no problme accepting payment from the US even in USD but would still only ship within the UK. 

Yes, I suppose it would have been a decent price for a genuine Vinaccia. At this point I would not be ready to blow a large sum, tho I am considering selling some of my stable of American instruments, esp a few Gibsons that get little use, to maybe trade up for a quality vintage Italian. I will keep you posted on further developements.

I hope to someday play actual examples of the big three makers. Visually the higher end Emberghers appeal to me and listening to the likes of M.s Stephens on hers, I can hear the expression (or espressione) that she imbues with hers.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> I contacted the seller to see if there was a way i could buy it and have it shipped to a friend in the UK and he said he had no problme accepting payment from the US even in USD but would still only ship within the UK.


Interesting. Seeing that I am the highest UK bidder, I might still hear from the seller. On the other hand, I doubt he'll take a two-thirds drop in order to avoid overseas shipping.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Unless these other bidders did not read the line about only shipping in the UK (quite possible), I would imagine that they can work something out with the seller in terms of payment and shipping. But, who knows, Martin, you may hear from him. If you are interested, perhaps a friendly email "just in case" might be in order. I would be prepared to pay a higher price, but you never know... Good luck.

Jim

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## Bob A

Those of you who are not put off by over-the-top ornamentation will be interested in viewing the circa 1900 Neapolitan instrument on the bernunzio.com website. The ribs are fascinating, it has double pearl dragons on the pickguard, the armrest has carved dragons as well, the fretboard is solid pearl, and the purfling incorporates a string of shamrocks. (!) While mystified by the clash of symbols, I admit to a certain fascination with the thing, akin to watching a trainwreck.

Things are a bit sluggish hereabouts nowadays. (Can I say "sluggish" without offending the gastropods among us?). 

I understand the dragon motif has been used on some Roman instruments in the past. Anyone have pictures?

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## Martin Jonas

That certainly is over the top. I can't say it appeals to me -- especially the mother of pearl fretboard is very off-putting. Doesn't playing comfort suffer? I agree, though, that the ribs are fascinating. Very intricate inlay work, although again I wonder whether the function and structural integrity doesn't suffer.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Yes, over the top would be the optimum description. To make it easier for those to check it out. click here.

Interesting: at first I thought that the back was fluted, but it is not but it is made of lots of marquetry. Any clues from the experts as to the maker?

Jim

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## etbarbaric

Bob said it best:

&gt;&gt; While mystified by the clash of symbols, I admit to
&gt;&gt; a certain fascination with the thing, akin to watching 
&gt;&gt; a trainwreck.

Perhaps we need a new term for these things.... I suggest:

"Gore-nament"

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## guitharsis

Glad I found this section. I play classical guitar and just started playing mandolin. I have a starter mandolin, a Mid Mo, and know that I would like to eventually have a bowlback because of my love of classical music and my Italian heritage. I expect to learn a lot from reading the posts. Does anyone have any suggestions or are any of you planning to list a bowlback in the near future?

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## Jim Garber

> Glad I found this section. #I play classical guitar and just started playing mandolin. #I have a starter mandolin, a Mid Mo, and know that I would like to eventually have a bowlback because of my love of classical music and my Italian heritage. #I expect to learn a lot from reading the posts. #Does anyone have any suggestions or are any of you planning to list a bowlback in the near future?


I may have a few vintage American ones that I may relinquish at sokme time, tho i prefer to sell those that are playing instruments and set up to do so. If you are looking for italian vintage there have already been much discussion of various ones on this general classical area.

The big American names which you may have already surmised are Vega, Martin, Washburn and a few others. The big three Italian ones are Embergher, Calace and Vinaccia. There are subcategories and other makers that also are ones to look for.

Jim

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## Bob A

My sugestion would be to attempt to play several examples before contemplating a purchase. I note with some surprise you post from my hometown of Rochester NY. A visit to John Bernunzio might be worthwhile. 

Sadly, I am not located there at this time. A pity, since I have a bunch of decent bowlbacks you'd be welcome to play. (If you find yourself in the WashDC area, drop me an email).

My experience with bowlbacks is that most need some repair or restoration. Decent US instruments are available from about 400 on up to a max of a couple grand. Good Italian instruments can be found near his price range, but a base of about 6-700 seems to be more realistic. You'll be forced rather higher for the top instruments by noted makers, since the competition for them is stiff in Europe and Japan.

While the BIg Three offer excellent instruments, there are lesser-known makers whose work is, ah, sound. Some of my favorite Italian bowlbacks were made by Mozzani, Salsedo and Monzino. Ceccherini is well thought of, as is De Meglio. Low-end DeMeglio instruments can be had for a reasonable price. It is best to purchase from a source that will permit evaluation and possible return; what suits one player may not please another.

I have several instruments in the repair/restoration pipeline. It is not out of the question that one or another might be available sometime; probably not for several months, though.

I've derived a lot of pleasure from an inexpensive Greek bowlback made last year. The sound and playability are excellent, though the aesthetic sensibility is not Italian by any means (think bouzouki decor).

Keep an eye on ebay for ideas of what's available and for how much. As you see, we post interesting examples here, and are willing to comment extensively on them. In my case, the willingness to comment extensively does not imply extensive knowledge, though enthusiasm counts for something.

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## guitharsis

Thanks for taking time to respond to my post, Jim and Bob.
Your posts were interesting and informative.

It is nice to hear from a former Rochesterian, Bob. I am familiar with Bernunzio's but haven't ever been there. Think they do mostly a mail order business but would be agreeable to someone stopping by on appointment.

I'm not in any big hurry to purchase a bowlback so I'll keep any eye on ebay and here at the cafe. It would be nice to have an Italian-made instrument, but a US instrument would be fine too.

Thanks again.
Doreen

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## Martin Jonas

This Angara & d'Isanto has come and gone on Ebay UK. I put in a bid for it, in my ongoing attempts to get a new bowlback for my mother, but I was outbid by the same Swiss buyer who also bought the recent Guiseppe Vinaccia. Again, this could potentially have been a pretty good buy, with its original case, but the seller was not very forthcoming with further information and I was reluctant to bid higher without a better idea of the straightness of the neck or the height of the action.

Martin

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## guitharsis

I've been checking out e-bay, Martin. There are a lot of bowlbacks for sale, at least at this time. That was kind of surprising to me. Good luck finding one for your mother.
Doreen

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## vkioulaphides

Oh, Doreen...

There are many bowlbacks for sale on eBay almost ALWAYS! Problem is, once you filter the crop du jour by some basic criteria, sadly few, very, very few pass muster. Still, there IS entertainment value in the quest...  

Best of luck in yours.

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## Martin Jonas

Not really a bowlback of note as such, but I thought this one is rather amusing. The little buttons are a bit of a giveaway that the current bridge position might not be entirely original...

Of considerably more merit is this Angara & d'Isanto, which has only a few hours to go. There seem to be an awful lot of these Angara & d'Isanto coming up in the UK recently. Maybe they were predominatly distributed in this country, similar to what the situation seems to have been for Ceccherini.

Martin

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## Eugene

> Not really a bowlback of note as such, but I thought this one is rather amusing.


Well, it seems a bowlback to me. Whether or not it is "of note" certainly seems debatable!

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## Martin Jonas

> Well, it seems a bowlback to me. #Whether or not it is "of note" certainly seems debatable!


That was indeed what I meant to imply.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"The little buttons are a bit of a giveaway that the current bridge position might not be entirely original..."

Clearly. Still, the question remains whether: A. the neck is warped waaaaaaaaay out of place, so that such a drastic repositioning of the bridge was necessary (and probably also futile), or B. the owner/seller is so clueless that (s)he actually thinks this is the right place for the bridge to be the former possibility pathetic, the latter faintly amusing.

I like the de Meglio-esque clasp-vents, the grain of the wood, and the Puglisi-esque shield. "Of note", hmm... I don't know. If only one could quantify this by some reliable "Of-Note-For-The-Price" ratio...  ANY working bowlback is worth SOMEthing, I believe.

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## Jim Garber

> Not really a bowlback of note as such, but I thought this one is rather amusing. #The little buttons are a bit of a giveaway that the current bridge position might not be entirely original...


Not only that but the seller cannot read. The maker is Domenico _Zanoni_.

Jim

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## Eugene

> Not only that but the seller cannot read. The maker is Domenico _Zanoni_.


Well, better such a typo than something like "Made by Fratelli!" or the like that often appears on eBay.

I just looked at the side-view across the table. Did you catch the _height_ of that bridge!? ...And there obviously was no effort made to fit the bridge to the table. I ssuspect the bridge essentially is a visual prop installed only to sell the piece. This one might actually be functional if fit with a proper bridge in the proper position.

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## Jim Garber

I suppose that this one could have been made uglier. Still it has some appeal... but not to me.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Not sure how I haven't seen this one before, but it has only eight hours to go now with the price at 376 Pounds. Clearly a rather fancy mandolin, but is it really a Vinaccia, as suggested by the seller? The bridge doesn't look much like any Vinacchia I've seen.

Martin
(Not intending to bid as I'm not looking for a mandolin in that price range right now.)

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## vkioulaphides

A very nice instrument. Now, whether it is a Vinaccia...  Looking at the auction from the Efficient Market Theory standpoint and after 26 bids as of this post had it been authentic, it would have stood well above GBP 376 by now. 

Still, I have seen no such butterflies, even on ornate Vinaccias. I would certainly call this a Vinaccia-_type_ instrument, and bid for it within limits of reason as such. Hypothetically, that is...

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## Arto

I´m pretty sure this is not "of note", maybe it´s not even a mandolin. What on earth is this?

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## Jim Garber

Sort of a tenor guitar I would guess.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

Here a bowlback of _note_: a fine looking 1966 Pasquale Pecoraro mandolin as come up to be auctioned at eBay UK. 

Click here to find out more.


Best,

Alex

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## Martin Jonas

> A very nice instrument. Now, whether it is a Vinaccia... # #Looking at the auction from the Efficient Market Theory standpoint and after 26 bids as of this post had it been authentic, it would have stood well above GBP 376 by now.


With 36 minutes to go, it is now at GBP1556 (almost $3000). #Clearly, the efficient markets do think it's a Vinaccia. #Actually, 35 of the 45 bids are by the same person (also the current high bidder) and he's new to Ebay. #I just hope there won't be tears somewhere.

Martin

PS: Finished now with no further bids.

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## vkioulaphides

As I am sure you surmised, Martin, I am hardly an E.M.T. aficionado.  My (slightly malicious) skepticism about this instrument may therefore be more, not less rewarded by the outcome. I confess, however, that I failed to do due diligence: Had I noticed (as you did) that the majority of bids had come from the same person, then the "real", or "discounted" number of bid(der)s would have shrunk to very, very few, thereby voiding any vague notion of efficiency.

Oh, well... I hope the buyer is happy with his/her new toy at a price!  

The Pecoraro, in its stark simplicity, is quite a find!

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## Jim Garber

What is this Embergher wannabe? Any clue to the maker? Looks considerably less quality than the Embergher school graduates I know of: Cerrone and Peccoraro.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> Looks considerably less quality than the Embergher school graduates I know of: Cerrone and Peccoraro.


Speaking of which, the Pecoraro on Ebay UK has 19 hours to go, with no bids at 800 Pounds (admittedly quite a bit more than the one that Jim found in the classifieds). There are some new photos, by the way, since the time that Alex posted about this one, and they are absolutely enormously sized.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

As to the Peccoraro... it is also strange that the seller actually quoted three of the interested bidders (including one from Japan). It is likely that it will sell and that there will be bids at either the last minute or after the auction is over.

On the other hand we may see a notice that the "item is no longer for sale." Those notices drive me crazy.

Looks like a nice simply-adorned one. How do the other quality Embergher-clones -- from his disciples -- compare to the real Emberghers? Is this one that one would call an "orchestra model" as opposed to a "soloist"?

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

The Roman wannabe in Jim´s post comes from the MUSIKALIA - Dott. Alfio Leone - Musical Instruments Factory (look at the "Embergh" or Roman style Mandolin  Model Numbers 609, 609s and 609sic in the general Musical instrument list) #. Click here to find their #Website and the instrument list. Click at the mandolin ikon. 

As you will notice this particular model offered for sale or swop is their most simplistic and plainest model (No.609). 


Best, 

Alex

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim,

This is an ´Embergher Student/Orchestra Model´ by Pecoraro. 


Best, 

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

I am currently high bidder on this nice "headless" R. Calace. I am sure I will be outbid at some point. I can't imagine what the worth of this would be with the headstock missing. Anyone have a clue as to what the headstock looks like? Is it the crooked one?

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Best of luck with that, Jim. I wouldn't know how to estimate the cost of the, ehm... REheading process. To sing MY favorite tune, though: I am more and more delighted each day with my maturing baby Calace. *hint, hint*

P.S. Also, not to hijack this thread: Jim, I do have my "Caribbean souvenir" on pdf. Would you be as kind as in the past to post it? Which e-mail address should I use? Many thanks, as always.

----------


## Jim Garber

I mostl likely will not bother with this Calace but it does appeal to me in level of ornamentation. Too bad about the headlessness which I imagine would be a good $500-800 dollars, maybe more. This would require serious luthiery which would mean, in my neck of the woods, Professor Crandall, which would also mean a few years of waiting for him to do his magic. 

I would bet that even headless this one would go for something like $500 or more, maybe even $1000. The only thing that might slow the bidding would be that the seller is in Uruguay, but he does seem to have a track record of sales and positive feedback.

In any case, if there is anyone else seriously interested contact me -- I would gladly step aside. Tho, if it looks like it could be a bargain corpse, I may go for it.

As to the music, Victor, please send it when you can to the regular address, unless it is seriously large, like over 5 MB. In that case send it to my yahoo one and let me know that it is there.

I will post and make it available to the list.

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

Many thanks, Jim. No, my latest not-quite-magnum-opus is three pages only; I don't expect it to be massive, byte-wise. Please, however, refresh my memory as to your current, "regular" address. I am getting old, you know...

----------


## Martin Jonas

> As to the Peccoraro... it is also strange that the seller actually quoted three of the interested bidders (including one from Japan). It is likely that it will sell and that there will be bids at either the last minute or after the auction is over.


Spot on. Eleven bids in total (4 bidders), all in the last 20 minutes of the auction. Sold for GBP 1300 ($2300). Well out of my price class.

Martin

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hello!

A friend of mine reported about this Puglisi here
Most of the things written by the seller sound true to me. The bridge and the thing, that covers the strings (I cannot remember how`s that in English) are not original. The Fingerboard doesn`t seem to be bent, although the bridge is placed on the wrong place. I think it`s there not to compensate a neck`s bending, but because of the seller`s ignorance. I think, the mandolin is worth.

Good luck!

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

I noticed, that the seller is also settled in Uruguay. Interesting...

----------


## Jonathan Rudie

Very nice looking Brandt mandolin (circa 1906) mandolin currenty on e-bay and it appears to be in very solid condition. I believe some members of this group have spoken highly of this maker in the past. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3743702784
Brandt

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## Eugene

I used to own a Brandt style 2. I kinda miss it, but I think I'll hold out for the next step up.

----------


## Jim Garber

Two (count 'em) Calaces...

This (dreaded?) mandolira

...and this one. 

Anyone know the model names/numbers from this era? or were they more custom-made to the player?

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

I have an opportunity to trade or buy a mandolin made in 1925 by Puglisi of Catania. Any thoughts on the quality of their work. It looks to be in good condition and the owner says it is playable. Is it just a decent factory instrument or worth having? I am up to my ears in American bowlbacks butjust wondered if this one might be worth getting... a second- or third-string maker?? 

Anybody experienced with this maker?

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

Plami's main instrument is a Puglisi. While this shop turned out so many instruments that they are hardly "collector's items", I believe they are the most reputable among Sicilians. 

Any images?

----------


## Jim Garber

1925 Puglisi

----------


## Eugene

> Plami's main instrument is a Puglisi. While this shop turned out so many instruments that they are hardly "collector's items", I believe they are the most reputable among Sicilians.


...And we all know to "Never mess with a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ah-haha-haha..."

----------


## vkioulaphides

I recall a youthful could-have-been romance, cut short when a (northern) Italian advised the suitor against it. "Leave _her_ alone: Her father has a rifle and knows how to use it; she has 4 older brothers; AND her boyfriend is Sicilian!"

Oh, about the mandolin...  It looks just swell, Jim. If the price is right... Plami's instrument sounds fine, as far as I can tell from the CD of his I've heard. Of course, as we all know, it's not the _instrument_ that "sounds", it's the PLAYER!  

In reference to Puglisi, I think that the gazillion look-alikes, crafted carelessly and slapped invariably with that *)&^#$^#$^ butterfly have done much to discredit the better products. Puglisi seem to hold their own better than others. They seem, generally speaking, to be a bit stouter than their Neapolitan cousins. Even discounting the visual illusion due to the perspective in the images you posted, I think that the generalizations holds true.

And, even if THIS Puglisi slips away, Jim, there are soooooooo many others!

----------


## guitharsis

That is a beautiful Puglisi, Jim. Hope you're able to get it.

The Calace looks like a wonderful instrument too. Wish I could read German. Are they taking bids from the USA? If so, wonder what the shipping would be? Also what does an instrument like that usually sell for?

Doreen

----------


## Martin Jonas

The Calace on Ebay Germany is specified as available to Germany and Europe only (possibly for Customs reasons). I'd expect it to go up substantially from the 400 Euro it's currently at -- there are still two days to go. You may want to be aware that the German description specifies that the mandolin was heavily damaged when he got it and that it has been restored by a guitar builder (one would hope that he knew something about historical mandolins). In the process, it has lost its label (although I guess the soundhole shape is sufficiently Calace-specific to prove authenticity). The seller used to play the instrument himself (meaning, presumably, that it is in playable condition), but is selling because he predominantly plays lute and guitar these days.

No harm in asking the seller whether he'd ship to the States, I guess, or how much it would be, Doreen.

Martin

----------


## guitharsis

Thanks for this information, Martin. Think I'll wait for something else to come along.

Doreen

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## Jim Garber

I think that the Calace will end up in a flurry of last minute bidding at around 2000 euros. Calaces are among the most desirable of these vintage italian bowlbacks.

As far as the Puglisi goes I will email Plami and see what his take is on it. The seller is wiling to trade for one of mine. it might be nice to have one Italian bowlback.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> Thanks for this information, Martin. #Think I'll wait for something else to come along.
> 
> Doreen


Doreen:
Anything particular you are looking for? Do you have a decent mandolin to play right now? There are some members on the list who may be able to assist you in finding your dream mandolin.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is freetranslation.com's translation of the Calace listing (pretty funny in parts, but you get the gist):




> A correctly pretty mandolin, in allerfeinster processing. I got this piece rather damaged and have restores myself a guitar farmer you. Unfortunately the slip of paper in the interior was destroyed through it, but it wrote nevertheless the name of the manufacturer on the cover of the mandolin pocket. Through the restoration, this lovely instrument is however again in a super condition and can become readily bespielt. (Beautiful sound.) The single flaw is above at the end of the neck, over the mechanics. There the veneer is splintered off somewhat and is missing a little piece of wood. Never however disturbed me because it is in my eyes an insignificant blemish. The mechanics is inserted and block were produced the handles to that the strings out of bone. I think that the lower part, that is the strings stops to that secure the strings, once retroactively was added, because it has immediately next to holes yet two entirely little at it. The two additional sound holes are, what I saw also yet in no mandolin,, beneath the sign stalemate. (Which by the way more real and no more imitated is.) 
> 
> All around, an absolute show-piece of which I separate me only very unwillingly. But there I in the mean time guitar (read) would play, lies the mandolin with me only around, what is would damage without doubt. 
> 
> You ask will answer send your questions please before duty of a commandment I as quickly as possible on that, or if necessary further pictures.


Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"It might be nice to have one Italian bowlback."

Well, Jim... ownership of course does have its own pleasures. But if simply "having" one is what you desire, I would be more than glad to _lend_ you my de Meglio, in return for a quid pro quo "lease" on a functional American instrument you might have.

Then again, that would require some coordination of our schedules and, as the mando-gods are our witnesses, we know how hard THAT is! #

----------


## Jim Garber

[QUOTE= (vkioulaphides @ Sep. 03 2004, 11:16)]


> "It might be nice to have one Italian bowlback."
> 
> Well, Jim... ownership of course does have its own pleasures. But if simply "having" one is what you desire, I would be more than glad to _lend_ you my de Meglio, in return for a quid pro quo "lease" on a functional American instrument you might have.
> 
> Then again, that would require some coordination of our schedules and, as the mando-gods are our witnesses, we know how hard THAT is! #


Yes, Victor, and that might actually require us seeing each other and maybe even having to play music. Wonderful idea and worth doing for sure. A good excuse. Hmmmm.

We need to have one of those mandolin tastings I have read about on the mandolin list, only this time for bowlbacks. 

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Here is freetranslation.com's translation of the Calace listing (pretty funny in parts, but you get the gist):


Very free translation, I might add. #Let me have a go at the lot, for comparison (and amusement, possibly). #Comments in square brackets are mine.

Martin

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++  ++++

A truly beautiful mandolin, of the finest manufacture. #I received this fairly badly damaged and a guitar maker restored it for me. #Unfortunately, the inside label was destroyed in the process, but at least he wrote down the name of the maker on the lid of the gig bag. #Because of the restoration, this brilliant mandolin is now once again in a super condition and is playable without problems (beautiful tone). #The only flaw is up at the end of the neck, above the tuning machines, where some veneer has splintered off and a small peice of wood is missing. #This has never bothered me, as it is in my view purely cosmetic. #The tuners are inlaid [I think he means closed] and the tuner knobs are bone. #I think that the lower part, i.e. the string holder [he means the tailpiece, I'm fairly sure] is a later addition, as there are two additional small holes right next to it. #Another thing that I have never seen in any other mandolin are the two additional small sound holes, below the tortoiseshell scratchplate (which incidently is real, not imitation, tortoiseshell).

Altogether, a true presentation piece, which I give up only reluctantly. #However, as I am now a guitar (lute) player, the mandolin is lying around idly, which without doubt is a shame.

Please ask any questions prior to bidding and I will answer as fast as possible, and if appropriate send further photographs.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Ha, ha, ha... 

In my arts management day-job, a singer needed to submit English translations for Schumann's _Liederkreis_.

He was sadly ill-advised to pass this sublime poetry through one of those mechanized translator-thingies. Poor Heine, poor Eichendorff!  

Reminds me of (the late) Benny Hill, trying to "speak German".

Ha, ha, ha...

----------


## Martin Jonas

After a few unsuccessful attempts, I've now finally managed to buy a bowlback for my mother on Ebay. #I had my eye out on this Raffaele Esposito for a while, but it was withdrawn from sale (I understand because the seller had second thought and decided to hang onto it, rather than the usual off-Ebay offer). #As just about the only thing I could find out about Raffaele Esposito was that he invented the Pizza Margarita in Naples in the 1880s (about the right time for this mandolin), this may not have been such a tragic loss.

In any case, I have now won my fallback auction, #this Carlo Rinaldi. #The grand total of my knowledge of this maker is zero, but it is clearly a late 19th century Neapolitan bowlback with very strong de Meglio influence. #Indeed, the mandolin looks indistinguishable from various de Meglios that I've seen, down to the two-size dot markers and the small soundholes at the side of the bowl. #As my Ceccherini is (at least visually) very similar to a de Meglio anyway, the Rinaldi also has a great similarity to the Ceccherini. #The only off-note I can see is the slightly clumsy squareness of the headstock, which is more elegantly curved on the Ceccherini. #If it should turn out to be a duff for playing purposes, I could at least transfer the decorated tailpiece cover (it's no longer present on the Ceccherini, but the inlay looks a good match) and the original case.

The Rinaldi looks to me to be in exceptionally good condition, indeed at least on the photographs slightly better than my Ceccherini. #The seller says that the neck is straight and that the action is around 2mm. #We shall see. #It looks to me as if the brass saddle insert may well be missing, so that replacing it would increase the action by a millimetre or so. #As I still have replacement saddles from my work on the Ceccherini, that shouldn't be too difficult. I'll know more once I've received the mandolin.

Martin

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## Bob A

Looks like a nice instrument, Martin. I've become increasingly fond of the shield-like apparatus that protects one's arm from the strings and tailpiece; I have at least one instrument that badly needs one. Good to see that yours comes equipped.

Anyone know of a source?

Speaking of sources, I've found a source for bowlback hard cases. I'm in the process of buying a few from Hobgoblin in the US. I need more, and have spoken with the manager. I suspect if there's interest in a half-dozen or more, we might get a substantial discount. If enough folks are interested I'd middle the deal, as I think I need a couple more. Let me know if you're interested. (The case looks, and probably is, identical to the one I got with my Greek instrument last year. Tolex-covered plywood, decent findings, not fancy - the top is flat rather than arched for strength, but it' strong enough to not cave if you lean on it).

----------


## Jim Garber

Bob:
What is the price per on these? I can't seem to find anyting on them on their site.

I had gotten an inexpensive hard case some time ago from Lark in the Morning for about $60 + $10 shipping. That one did have an arched top and was quite serviceable. I think it is the same one that comes with the Musikalia mandolins.

I also may have a line on even cheaper hardshell ones. The quality of these is somewhat crude but they would protect most instruments. I would not trust the hardware to keep it closed for any transit. However, that problem would be easily solved by a small webbed strap around the neck of the case, tho.

I have an email to the seller of these cases and will let you know if there are any more available.

This is the problem with acquiring all these bowls: finding the proper cases for them.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is an Embergher Liuto to salivate over. Drives me crazy... he has it tuned to a 5 course guitar tuning. Doesn't he want to give this one to me  ?

I did hear from the owner...

he says:



> thank you. Sorry for having such an Embergher not use it like a mandolin.Can`t play a mandolin. But like a guitar it sounds very, very nice.Great pleasure to play it.
> 
> I bought it at antique shop 10 years ego (in St.Petersburg). Obviosly nobody played the instrument many years. Inside there were a lot of spider`s webs, it had rusty bass strings and was not useful for playing.


Some folks have all the luck... our equivalent of finding the Loar under grandma's bed...

Jim

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## Jim Garber

He has an English version of his site which makes it much easier, right!

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> Speaking of sources, I've found a source for bowlback hard cases. I'm in the process of buying a few from Hobgoblin in the US.


I assume that's the same Gremlin case that I bought a few months ago from Hobgoblin UK. I posted about it in the Equipment forum at the time (here). They are very nice Korean-made cases at a decent price. My Ceccherini fits well, with a bit of space to spare but not so much that it would rattle around excessively. I keep my chamois slip mat in the case under the bowl and that takes up just enough of the slack to keep the instrument in place. The only downside is that they don't have any accesories compartment, so plectra, string etc would have to be kept around the headstock.

Martin

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## Eugene

Luciano Faria, the luthier who built my mandolino, is supposed to send me detailed instructions for the measurements from which his case maker likes to work. When they arrive, I am intending to measure a few bowlbacks (I'm thinking Martin, Vega, and Washburn) and send them to this case maker; this potentially could result in three snug, custom-fit models. The case by this maker that holds my mandolino is pretty straightforward, but of excellent quality with a nice little storage compartment under the neck support and is of very hard plywood. It cost US$80 and I suspect a modern bowlback case would cost just a fraction more.

----------


## Eugene

> Here is an Embergher Liuto to salivate over. Drives me crazy... he has it tuned to a 5 course guitar tuning. Doesn't he want to give this one to me  ?


...or me! This is silly! If you want a 5-course guitar, you should be able to have a new one of decent quality custom built for much less than such a fine liuto cantabile from the Embergher shop would take at auction.

----------


## Jim Garber

I would love to hear the story of how a musician in Russia came across an Embergher liuto. I have emailed him and will see if i can at least get the story... if not the liuto 

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> The case by this maker that holds my mandolino is pretty straightforward, but of excellent quality with a nice little storage compartment under the neck support and is of very hard plywood. #It cost US$80 and I suspect a modern bowlback case would cost just a fraction more.


Eugene:
 yes, keep me posted. I n terms of quality cases that would be great and my Pandini in a gigbag style makes me pretty nervous.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

The Calace on Ebay Germany has now sold, but stayed surprisingly low at 705 Euro. I wonder why? As it happens, I put in a bid towards the end, as it was _so_ low, even though I'm no longer on the lookout for another bowlback. That bid was topped, but still the end result was nowhere near what I was expecting. Is it because of the missing label? Uncertainty about the quality of the restoration (it _looked_ a fine restoration, but who knows if it preserved the essential Calace-ness)? Doubt about the authenticity, given the missing label? Everybody still on summer holiday? Who knows...

Martin

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## Alex Timmerman

Hay there!

There is an interesting new old 1910 Raffaele Calace coming up to be auctioned at eBay Germany.

It needs some work - as you can see - but then again if you like it, you have a genuine mandolin of the Calace firm! 


Greetings,

Alex

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## Jim Garber

I emailed the seller about the 1910 Calace. He says he will only ship to Europe. I wanted to see if he would make an exception.

Seems like it is the way I generally acquire the finer instruments: get them in sad condition and rely on the good graces and talents of the luthiers I know.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Another lowend but serviceable (I think) mandolin again on eBay Germany. This one is a Kisslinger from Napoli, according to the label. Anyone know that maker?

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a nice 1906 Style 1 Martin. Needs some work but the starting bid is reasonable. Could be a good one for one of us (not me). keep it in the family!

Jim

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## Eugene

Odd, this is the only Martin I can recall having seen with a fingerboard extension. It's also odd to see a Martin with the soundhole positioned to only allow 18 full frets by 1906. I have no reason to suspect fraud. I wonder what the story is on this piece.

----------


## Bob A

The Hobgoblin cases are running me $90 each, down from a list of 105. Not a bargain, but a bird in the hand. I'm desperate for hard cases at this time.

I saw an Egildo mandolin on ebay last night. It had the scorpion peghead seen on high-end Roman instruments, but appeared to be a flatback. (No photos of the back per se, but a side view of the neck seems indicative. I seem to recall a pretty high opening being asked, with no takers. That was then. Who knows what it is now?)

I'd welcome a better case for fewer bucks in the sweet ny and by, but current needs are paramount).

----------


## Jim Garber

Bob:
I wonder if the Lark cases are exactly the same or similar. The code is CSE032. The price is only $60 and I recall that shipping was about $10. No picture or further description, but I can post a photo of mine.

Jim

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## Bob A

As you say, no picture. Hard to tell, but I'd have to hope that I'd be getting 30 bucks' worth of extra something for my extra 30 bucks.

The Hobgoblin code is YH1058, if you'd care to compare.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Regarding hard cases: When I once contacted Musikalia, their hard case stood at $105. Considering that Lark has a simple import-and-mark-up business model, I doubt that they would sell the _same_ item for less than its source does.

----------


## Eugene

Maybe the only one I've seen that hasn't been riddled with top cracks, a simple entry-level piece from the character reputed to be America's first mandolin builder, J. Bohmann.

----------


## Jim Garber

I snagged my first real Italian instrument today, a simply ornamented Stridente. I am not sure why the vultures did not descend on this one esp with a pretty reasonable Buy It Now. Possibly because the seller described it as made from laminated wood which I doubt. It does have a few body cracks, notably one on the top but the seller says the neck is straight, etc.

I went back to Richard's bowlback article for CMSA and he mentions Stridentes among the ones to look for. Has anyone else acquired one of these? Are they decent in sound, playability etc.? I hope thay they are the Italian equiv of American Conservatory - decent playing simple instruments.

Jim

----------


## RSW

It's not a high end model but it may well play nicely, you got a good deal on this one.

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

I think the Puglisi was better, but no one knows, before playing them both. Anyway...enjoy your first Neapolitan bowlback, Jim!

----------


## Jim Garber

The Puglisi looks nicer and prob needs less work but I have a feeling that it will go for considerably more money. The Stridente had a Buy It Now price that is lower than many starting prices. I have seen other Stridentes listed for 2 to 4 times the price.

Of course, I do have to factor in the repair costs, but I think I have yet to get any bowlback that didn't need some sort of TLC.

I will report back when it arrives. 

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

Congratulations, Jim!

Yes, "laminated" is the wrong term. But I don't think that this was the reason the vultures missed this one; I just think you got there first, were quick on the trigger, etc. A very good deal indeed!

I don't own a Stridente (yet) but have seen and played several: nice instruments, all of them. As RSW says, not high-end; still, the fancier models are, ehm... fancier.  In other words, I have not _heard_ an appreciably higher quality of SOUND from the models that labor under a ton of inlay. But, as usual, this is an echo of my own biases...

Enjoy!

----------


## Eugene

Congrats, Jim. I have seen a few Stridentes in person as well. I like'em. They made a good many very early in the mandolin craze that still used four ivory hitch pins instead of a metal tailpiece. Yours is evidently a little later.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here is an Embergher Liuto to salivate over. Drives me crazy... he has it tuned to a 5 course guitar tuning. Doesn't he want to give this one to me  ?


I did hear from the owner...

he says:



> thank you. Sorry for having such an Embergher not use it like a mandolin.Can`t play a mandolin. But like a guitar it sounds very, very nice.Great pleasure to play it.
> 
> I #bought #it #at #antique #shop #10 years #ego (in St.Petersburg). Obviosly #nobody #played #the #instrument #many #years. Inside #there #were a #lot #of #spider`s #webs, it #had #rusty #bass #strings #and #was #not useful #for #playing.


Some folks have all the luck... our equivalent of finding the Loar under grandma's bed...

Jim

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hello,

A friend of mine reported about these "Puglisi" mandolins:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....me=WDVW 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....me=WDVW 

Good luck!

----------


## Eugene

Wow, I actually really like the one with the fingerboard extension and the hart in the scratchplate.

----------


## Eugene

...and the vented clasp a la de Meglio.

----------


## Martin Jonas

But its bridge is well behind the cant, clearly not its original position. #I wonder whether this was an after effect of the neck repair. #The seller seems to imply that he has played this instrument and has commissioned the repair himself, so the bridge position should not just be the consequence of ignorance. #That makes me rather uneasy on the prospects of being able to intonate this mandolin.

Martin

PS: Interesting items in the background of the shot of the back of the bowl. This seems to be a bottle of car polish, an unknown spray (furniture polish?), some rags and what looks like an archtop guitar. What are the chances that these products have been used to bring out the shine?

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

That`s the first Puglisi with vented clasps, that I see... Interesting...

----------


## vkioulaphides

Yes, earlier models were water-cooled. 

Nice instruments, both. It's a case of ornamentation that does necessarily mask poor craftsmanship. The checkered binding, the butterfly, the meandering design around the soundhole... all those you will find in great many Puglisis. I suspect they were "standard" with this shop. 

Martin's concern about the bridge placement is nagging, though...

----------


## Bob A

Perhaps you have already noted the 18th century Vinaccia (complete with original label) offered in the classifieds by Sr Onorati? He still has the Embergher/Cerrone mandola he posted several months ago as well; yet another item that might appeal to folks hereabouts.

I have no idea what he's asking for them. I did have occasion to inquire about the Cristofaro he still has; he'd offered it for a bargain price in the classifieds, but by the time I expressed interest, it had gone up 50%.

----------


## Jim Garber

Check out this 1890 Vinaccia at fred Oster's in Philadelphia. Maybe he wil brign it to CMSA.

Not as old as Marco's but equally beautiful.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> Not as old as Marco's but equally beautiful.


In the eye of the beholder, no doubt. That Vinaccia is certainly spectacular, but I don't think I could cope with that level of ornamentation (like the fluting at the back, though). Luckily, at $3800 for a mandolin with a sunken top, I'll never be in a position where it matters.

Martin

----------


## Eugene

> In the eye of the beholder, no doubt. That Vinaccia is certainly spectacular, but I don't think I could cope with that level of ornamentation (like the fluting at the back, though). #Luckily, at $3800 for a mandolin with a sunken top, I'll never be in a position where it matters.


Aye, on all counts.

----------


## Jim Garber

Actually I was blinded by the light for the moment. My general preference is toward the great sound overthe great ornamentation tho I have to admit that there is something to that fluting, not sure what.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

I agree, fluted ribs on a simple, tasteful decor inexplicably reek of class.

----------


## Jim Garber

I saw one of these on ebay sometime ago. Gruhn has one of these Nightingale mandolins. I guess this is another concept instrument of the time. 




> The Nightingale bowl back mandolin, c. 1900, made in Evansville, Indiana, unusual interior spruce "second top" with original wood cylinder insert in soundhole of second top.


File under: double soundboard. Viz: DeMeglio, Gelas, Virzi Brothers

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> File under: double soundboard. Viz: DeMeglio, Gelas, Virzi Brothers


DeMeglio? The only Italian ones that I'm aware of are Ceccherini (like Victor's, Bob's and the one at the Sinier de Ridder site).

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Sorry, Martin, I get those mixed-up. I should have said Ceccherini.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> The Puglisi looks nicer and prob needs less work but I have a feeling that it will go for considerably more money. The Stridente had a Buy It Now price that is lower than many starting prices. I have seen other Stridentes listed for 2 to 4 times the price.


As it turns out, you were quite right there, Jim: the Puglisi went for over $500. #Once you add shipping costs to the US, that Stridente looks pretty good.

It also makes for an interesting comparison with Jeff's Vega auction: I wouldn't have thought that the reputation of the Puglisi is higher than that of the Vega, but it made twice the money on ebay.co.uk than Jeff's did on ebay.com. #Maybe there still is more of a collector's market in Europe.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

There is definitely more of an interest in bowlback in general in Europe. On the other hand, look at the violin market: anything with an Italian name ups the price. Even back in the 1920s there were German manufacturers -- I believe one of them was (and is still) called Andreas Morelli -- who italianized their name to sell more violins and give the appearance of quality. Ironic that Stradivari, Amati, Guarneri and the gang latinized their names on thier labels to up the ante.

As far as American bowlbacks; figureon the fact that they have been looked down on for many years and that the vast majority of mandolin players in the US play bluegrass and would not be caught dead with a bowlback.

On the other hand, I am not sure why Jeff's went for relatively cheap. it is a good deal for the buyer since it is a playable instrument as opposed to the questionmarks that surround so many of the others sold by antique dealers and the likes: "I know nothing about musical instruments.... it belonged to my grandfathe..."

Giacomo Garbero (the mandolinist formerly known as Jim)

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## Jim Garber

> Here is a nice 1906 Style 1 Martin. Needs some work but the starting bid is reasonable. Could be a good one for one of us (not me). keep it in the family!
> 
> Jim


16 hours to go on this one and still relatively low. Any takers among us?

Jim

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## Bob A

Pass on the Martin, Giacomo. I already have a Martin on the permanent restoration list.

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## Martin Jonas

It does look in reasonable condition, though. I'm not sure that the fault at the edge of the soundboard needs attention -- it looks like it might be cosmetic and largely in the binding. Difficult to say whether to bowl needs attention. It looks fine in the photos, and the seller mentioning two ribs having "become unglued" may refer only to a slight gap, not actually loose ribs. That leaves mainly the missing bridge as an immediate concern.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> Pass on the Martin, Giacomo. I already have a Martin on the permanent restoration list.


You and me both, Roberto!

Methinks that Martin needs a namesake mandolin, eh?

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Tempting, but seeing that I have my eye on a bouzouki and already have three very nice and playable mandolins, I think I'll pass on this one. I might have gone for it in the UK, but I don't want the hassle of overseas shipping and the uncertainty of UK customs charges (sometimes they let used goods through as gifts, sometimes they charge).

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> There's a fellow in Uruguay(!) who's listed a mandolin by Balsamo that seems quite attractive. I suspect Balsamo to be a transplant - the mandolin was made in Argentina, but looks like a very high-end Italian product. Ebay number 3721032838. (Someone ought to tell me how to make these links work).


Hey Bob:
You are getting quite good at this. Look at your observations form way back and then see Ian's story of woe. We are the Bowlback Detective agency!

Jim

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## Bob A

Well, Martin, perhaps you have not yet suffered enough. A nice yearlong restoration project would be a nice place to start, except for the fact that you already have some playable instruments. Of course, dealing with Customs would be a good way to earn Penance Points. (I have been ignoring fedex's demands for customs duties on my recent Italian imports. One is, or ought to be, exempt as an antique, being made in 1895. The other has no date, but is probably first half 20th cent. Eventually there will be the tromping of jackboots in the night, no doubt. I will be Made To Understand that these duties help keep the US bowlback makers employed, and before long I will love Big Brother).

Whoops. Carried away again.


BTW, I must express my appreciation for the "watercooled" bit, above. Gets a laugh every time I read it.

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## Jim Garber

Strange doings on the bowlback front (pun intended). What is going on with this Washburn. It look like it was retopped. Maybe not bad for a player tho... (not me)

Jim

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## Eugene

Retopped and retopped badly. This isn't worth the effort.

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## Jim Garber

An interesting Martin bowlback just came on eBay. It doesn't quite fit into the std styles but I think one clue is that is has the Handley label like Eugene's 6a. My theory is that it is a style 1 with customization to Handley's specs. I will call it a 1a unless someone corrects me 

It is hard to count the ribs but if it were a 1 it would have 22. The fretboard inlays seem slightly fancier than a 1 but it has the side guard. Serial number given either put it at 1914 or 1916.

Jim

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## Eugene

(Pssst...that's Peter with the 6a.)

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## Eugene

I just looked at that Handley Martin. It sports 26 ribs and the rosette marquetry of that era's style 2. I think I'd go for calling it an atypical style 2 (or 2a if you prefer). I like it. If it was healthier, I'd go for it.

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## Jim Garber

> (Pssst...that's Peter with the 6a.)


I thought Peter sold his 6a. Which one is yours?

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## Eugene

Mine is called "unidentified special" by Longworth's production tables and "42 ribs, maple joints" without a style designation by the Martin log.

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## Jim Garber

Eugene:
So the main difference is that your ribs... er... the ones on your mandolin... are joined with maple rather than ivory and the side guard? How does that differ from the 6a? Does yours have a Handley label?

[Boy are we obscure... you can see how many other folks are jumping in here. Hey, I know a way to get their attention... didn't Bill Monroe play one of these way back when?]

Jim

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## Eugene

> Eugene:
> So the main difference is that your ribs... er... the ones on your mandolin... are joined with maple rather than ivory and the side guard? How does that differ from the 6a? Does yours have a Handley label?
> 
> [Boy are we obscure... you can see how many other folks are jumping in here. Hey, I know a way to get their attention... didn't Bill Monroe play one of these way back when?]


On differences in the ribs' spacers, pretty much. #Mine also does not have any binding or decorative trim on the clasp, and the position markers are a little simpler than those on the 6a. #It took me a while to adjust to the look of the classic Martin "teardrop" pickguard on a mandolin, but it has really grown on me; it's very distinctive...and there is a small chance mine may be the earliest (or at least the earliest extant) example.

On obscure, you know it! #Everybody knows everything about every instrument signed by Loar during his tenure with Gibson. #How many of those big dogs could come over here and hold their own amongst us chihuahuas? #Ha!

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## Eugene

Oops, and mine only has the customary Martin stamps, no labels. It truly is off on its own and has nothing to do with Handley's shop.

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## Martin Jonas

> [Boy are we obscure... you can see how many other folks are jumping in here. Hey, I know a way to get their attention... didn't Bill Monroe play one of these way back when?]


Not only that, but you're also holding the same conversation on decoration levels of Martins simultaneously here and over in Bratsche's thread...

Not that I mind; I can't contribute as I've never seen one in the flesh, but these are spectacular looking (and sounding, I presume) instruments.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> I can't contribute as I've never seen one in the flesh, but these are spectacular looking (and sounding, I presume) instruments.


Martin:
You probably completely missed my earlier hint to you to go for one of these:




> Methinks that Martin needs a namesake mandolin, eh?


Oh well. Yes we are delving into the minutiae of the mandolin world. hey, other speak of scrolls and we can speak of unlined caps.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Take a look at this one. The seller is one who always seems to have bowlbacks for sale. This one sort of Embergher-oid, tho I am not so sure that the maker is Italian. Any clues to who the maker is?

Jim

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## Eugene

My money's on some shop in Catania, maybe Carmello.

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## vkioulaphides

... or Germany, _alla siciliana_.

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## Martin Jonas

There's a nice 1897 de Meglio on Ebay UK. #At the moment at GBP 51 with three days to go. #It looks identical to my "Rinaldi" (which is now developing a very nice tone), except for the missing tailpiece cover and the absence of a metal decoration on the headstock. #Unlike mine, this one has a proper de Meglio label. 

And another virtually identical looking de Meglio here, this time with tailpiece cover, metal decoration and de Meglio label.

Why do these things always turn up in multiples?

Martin
PS: On another look, the bridges on both of these don't look quite right. On the first, the end has broken off and the second is rather chunky.

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## vkioulaphides

Yes, both models 1A, like mine. The latter bridge is bulky and non-original, for all I know. If the prices stay low... (and, of course, if the requisite restoration does not exceed limits of reason)

As for an entire "crop" of de Meglio 1A's: The shop turned out some 10,000 of them (I was once told), so they are quite abundant. I got mine via the U.K., where many an Italian vintage piece seems to have gathered.

Somehow, after all is said and done, all costs factored in, happy buyers seem to have spent on these more or less what I did on mine. 

Sweet-sounding, lovely mandolins, and especially attuned to the sonority of the Mediterranean folk repertoire, generous tremolo and all. (see Trim the Tremolo thread)

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## Eugene

> An interesting Martin bowlback just came on eBay. It doesn't quite fit into the std styles but I think one clue is that is has the Handley label like Eugene's 6a. My theory is that it is a style 1 with customization to Handley's specs. I will call it a 1a unless someone corrects me


Well, the auction ended, mandolin unsold. To the seller's credit, he/she did a good bit of research and posted:




> We are not knowledgable about musical instruments, and as we were not sure of the Serial #, and we questioned the appraisers knowledge about wood and antique mandolins (after a couple Ebayers pointed out that it may be a Style 2 mandolin with a rosewood bowl), we called the C.F. Martin factory on 9/20/04: #C.F. Martin factory rep checked in books and stated that the mandolin is serial #4806 (not #4306). #The year of manufacture is 1916 (not 1913/1914), and the correct designation is #2 (not style 3) Martin bowlback. #The rep thought the bowl back is probably rosewood (not mahogony)---as rosewood contains dark streaks and is not uniform in texture. #Bridge is ebony (not rosewood). #This instrument may have once had a tailpiece cover (which may be missing, and we have never seen).


This is still the year before the guitar-like "side guard" became standard. #I would guess this was because of Handley's predilection for such things.

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## etbarbaric

So... I thought I'd see if you American mando experts out there can help me I.D. an old American mandolin. I'm pretty sure its a Washburn, or Lyon and Healy, based on several attributes, including the black-painted lining material that it has in common with a few that I've seen. It has 42 ribs (including the wide ones near the top). The fretboard is "Vega-ish" at the end... but I don't think this is a Vega.

Anyone have an old Washburn catalog that can help? I'd like to know a date and model if possible. I haven't come across any numbers or label.

Thanks for any help,

Eric

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## Jim Garber

That is a strange one Eric. The only thing that L&H has in a catalog with similar headstock is a flatback circa 1924. Odd thatit is a relatively unornate pickguard and binding but has 42 ribs. 

I will look further. Or perhaps other resident experts know.

Jim

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## Bob A

Unable to provide serious light on the issue, but a look thru a book on Washburn did seem to show that some otherwise higher-end instruments were produced with rather plain marquetry binding, rather than the fancier pearl inlay one might expect. The stark headstock and seemingly plain tuner backing plate were not what I'd expect, from the limited info I was able to examine. Still, probably a worthy instrument, especially at the current bid.

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## etbarbaric

Thanks Jim and Bob (maybe Eugene will chime in with an opinion). Actually Bob, that was the one and only bid (the auction is over and I have the instrument here). Let it not be said that you can't get a good deal on E-bay these days! I just happened to see the thing just before the auction ended and I felt sorry for it... (I *really* don't need any more mandos but this one hadn't received *any* bids... poor thing). 

Other than being dirty with uniform finish crazing, its in pretty great shape... The general level of workmanship seems rather high. Its hard to see from the photos but the table is a particularly nice piece of book-matched spruce. Though the pickguard is rather simple, it is inlayed with mother of pearl... and its rather nicely turned. I believe the funny short little bridge is original too which may be a clue... notice the bone insert.

In addition to the black painted lining, I seem to remember seeing some Washburns with similar finish crazing. I'm grateful for any and all info and speculation.

Eric

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## Jim Garber

Eric:
I think that your guess of L&H might be right. I can't find the exact model but this American Conservatory description from a 1920 catalog comes close. They don't have a picture of that particular one but the other AmCons have the wrong headstock but the right pickguard.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Now on the facing page of that same 1920 catalog is pictured a Washburn 2627 with much fewer ribs but a very similar headstock to yours.

My theory is that it was a slightly later with AmCon specs but with a Washburn headstock perhaps made for catalog sales or for reseller.

Jim

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## Eugene

I'm on board with Jim; I suspect it's a 1915-1925 Lyon & Healy product made for a retailer. The square-ended bridge is typical of all L&H bowlback production. Binding the clasp in celluloid also looks like their kinda thing. 1915 is when L&H started using tailpieces with separate slip-on cover plates on the cheaper models in their Washburn line (I don't know, but they might have used them earlier on commissioned pieces and in some of their other brands). 1915 is also when they started lining their bowls with a black material instead of heavy tan paper.

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## Eugene

The profile of a soundboard with a very long post-cant surface is also pretty typical of L&H mandolins.

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## etbarbaric

Wow! Thanks for the scans and the effort Jim. I think you're getting very close. The "celluloid bound top and apron" sure sound right, and the end-clasp (or apron) sure looks right in the rear-view. The pickgard is TS and pearl, however.

$31.50!?!?! I guess it hasn't appreciated all that much in 80 years! :-)

ps - I'll let you in on a little secret... its not really a 42-rib back... its an 11-rib back... but its done so well that its very hard to tell unless you know what you're looking for. I have found some other very high-end instruments that use this approach...

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## Martin Jonas

Interesting instrument, Eric. #Your description of it being an 11-rib back pretending to be 42-rib explains the rather puzzling appearance of the back. #Especially the photo on the bottom left looks like being heavily varnished with the white lines painted on (which I guess is what it is) and in the photo above that one can faintly see the borders of the actual ribs as dark lines (not aligning with the white lines). #At $99, a great find. #If I were to guess why nobody else has bid, perhaps it's because of the photo on the bottom right of the Ebay entry: the action looks awfully high on that. #How high is it "in the flesh", Eric?

Martin

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## etbarbaric

Hi Martin,

Actually, the light-colored rib separators are real (i.e. not painted on) and there are no places where the "light lines" don't line up with the actual rib joints. The tip-off is that the number of internal facets (which is very hard to see) doesn't match the number of external ribs. Once you know this, one can separate the "virtual ribs" from the real ribs by looking very closely at grain patterns and color... even in rosewood.

This building technique is quite fascinating, and I've seen it on some high-end Italian instruments as well. My theory is that the 11-rib back was first made up (completely without separators) and then rounded smooth. The separators are then *inlayed*, both along real rib joints, as well as interior to the real ribs. I have seen fluted models where the illusion is very difficult to detect indeed.

How does 11 go into 42? you ask... Two very wide real ribs joining to the top (each with one wide, and two narrow virtual ribs), plus 9 more narrower real ribs, each with four narrow virtual ribs)... (2x3)+(9x4)=42! (42... for you Douglas Adams fans, being a significant answer).

I think this has to have been done with the aid of a mechanical system... and I imagine the system would be used both for the cutting of real ribs, as well as cutting channels for the inlaying of the separators. On instruments where I've seen this technique, the separators are impossibly narrow, straight, and, again, there are no places where they miss the joints between real ribs.

Eric

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## etbarbaric

Sorry Martin, I missed your question. I haven't measured it but I don't think the action is prohibitive (though it may be a touch high). I haven't brought it up to pitch yet (because it carries a full set of early 20th-century strings... probably Black Diamonds) and I'm not sure they'll go there...

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## vkioulaphides

The techique Eric describes is very common amongst (Greek) bouzouki-builders: The "golden standard" being the _exindari_, i.e. "60-staff" bowl, many luthiers "mask" a bowl with far fewer staves to be precise, _half_ as many with this technique of "faux staff-separators". In some cases, i.e. in those of reputable and honest luthiers, they make no secret of it; the fewer staves harbor obviously fewer future structural problems and contribute to the instrument's longevity, while an artful inlay disguising as a separator is nothing to be ashamed of.

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## etbarbaric

Hey Eugene,

Thanks for your comments too. It was the instrument's proportions that made me think L&H/Washburn initially as well. Its nice to see the curved fretboard termination in the image that Jim provided.

&gt;&gt; 1915 is also when they started lining their bowls 
&gt;&gt; with a black material instead of heavy tan paper.

Very interesting. Can you share your source for this information?

Thanks,

Eric

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## etbarbaric

It is perhaps revealing that Washburn's own description (as provided by Jim) doesn't call them rib separators but "42 ribs of rosewood with white inlay between".

And thanks to Victor for your insight. I'd love to see the machinery that modern bouzouki-builders use to accomplish this technique.

Eric

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## Martin Jonas

> Actually, the light-colored rib separators are real (i.e. not painted on) and there are no places where the "light lines" don't line up with the actual rib joints.


Very interesting. I was looking at the photo below and thought I could see black lines in the middle of several of the ribs. From your description, these are clearly not rib boundaries, then, and must be part of the rosewood figure.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Oh, boy, this D'Angelico bowlback should be interesting. Seriously plain, if it didn't have a label I would probably pay maybe $75 at a flea market. It will be interesting to see what happens with this. Most bowlback enthusiasts would prefer one of the bigger Italian names at that price and most D'A enthusiasts would prefer a guitar. 

I would be curious if Carlo M or Marco were at all interested in such a plain instrument, tho from a prominent American maker.

My prediction: it doesn't sell at that price and the seller relists OR (more likely) it gets withdrawn with an off-eBay offer.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

It appears to be gone already Jim...

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## Jim Garber

> It appears to be gone already Jim...


I think what happened is that the seller had "not Gibson, not Martin" in the title line. That is one ultimate eBay no-no. I managed to download the jpegs for it tho. As you can see it is pretty simple almost American Conservatory in look.

I wonder whether it was actually built by John D'Angelico or else just sold in his store. He may have imported it or bought it from Luigi Ricca or Mannello's shop and put it on his label. I checked his log and he doesn't even list a mandolin until 1940 and those are all carved ones, at least allthe ones I have seen. 

Here is the text he wrote:



> You are bidding on a 1933 D'Angelico mandolin! This is not a fake!!!! This is an original John D'angelico made Mandolin! John D'Angelico's instruments are some of the most sought after instruments in the world. Here is your chance to own a highly collectable piece!!! D'Angelico started making guitars and mandolins in 1932 so this is one of his first instruments. Now about the mandolin. It is a bowl back mandolin. It features the famous D'Angelico headstock. Brazilian rosewood back. Bound top and soundhole. Two things that need attention, 1) A tuner button is missing. 2)there is a hairline crack on the top. It really is hair thick. that runs from the bridge down to the tailpiece. It really is small and minor! All else is original!!! This is an awsome piece!!! It is so important in all american instrument history!!! I have asked many experts and they all agreed they have never seen a D'Angelico bowlback mandolin for sale. They also agree that it has to be one of his first mandolins. I am starting the bid at ONLY $2500.00 NO RESERVE!!!


Jim

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## Jim Garber

You still may be able to see the photos of the D'Angelico here.

Jim

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## Eugene

> It features the famous D'Angelico headstock.


What, no cupola!

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## Jim Garber

> It appears to be gone already Jim...


I fixed the link above and it turns out that it was not pulled by eBay... yet. You should be able to access the whole posting above or here.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"I'd love to see the machinery that modern bouzouki-builders use to accomplish this technique."

Oh, a cursor, running on an arched rail, shaped to the shape of the bowl (bowl facing down, of course). For lower-end instruments, the cursor is simply an etching-point that stains the "faux separator" with some kind of tint, smack in between the real separators, i.e. in the middle of each staff. For upscale instruments, the cursor is a fine carpenter's gouge, that carves out the indentation, into which inlay is eventually placed obviously, a multifaceted procedure, and therefore costlier. 

As for the D'Angelico, and even though I am _still_ American-mandoless, the price is waaaaaaaaaaaaay out of my reach. In due time...

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## Martin Jonas

> It features the famous D'Angelico headstock.


It may well be famous, but it's still virtually identical to the headstock on my Ceccherini of 40-or-so years earlier.

Martin

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## etbarbaric

Thanks for that Victor. That's more or less what I had imagined. Incidently, some modern luthiers use a similar setup to do the cutting and joining of curved ribs for lute-like instruments.

Eric

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## Martin Jonas

The two de Meglios at Ebay UK have now finished and went for GBP127 and GBP137. That seems to be about the going rate in the UK for Italians of decent pedigree. My Rinaldi (or de-Meglio-in-drag) was GBP102 and probably in slightly better condition than either of these two. The lower price can probably be attributed to the lack of a recognisable label. The Ceccherini was GBP140, and is really a much higher quality instrument. All of these prices are still quite a bit below, say, Jeff's Vega.

Martin

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## Eugene

> Originally Posted by  (Eugene @ Sep. 24 2004, 10:05)
> 
> It features the famous D'Angelico headstock.
> 
> 
> It may well be famous, but it's still virtually identical to the headstock on my Ceccherini of 40-or-so years earlier.
> 
> Martin


I was being facetious in my quote of the auction. The _real_ famous D'Angelico headstock featured a cupola. This headstock doesn't look much like that made famous by the D'Angelico shop.

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## Jim Garber

It is interesting that I believe that the D'A guitar headstock was derived from some of the more ornate Italian mandolin headstocks. 

I did hear from the seller:



> What I know about the piece is that John D'Angelico sold this in his shop in 1933. Now you brought up a good question did he make it or just put his label on it? Well to answer that I am good friends with Michael Indelicato who is the gentleman who purchased the famous CHINERY COLLECTION and who I purchased the mandolin from. He stated he did research and found out it was made by John D'Angelico! He also stated that it had to be one of his first if not first mandolin. Thats why it looks so primitive in design. When he purchased the collection he all the high end stuff looked at by experts and authenticated. In terms of documentation I will see what I can come up with from Mr. Indelicato.# Thanks For the e-mail Good Luck!


I replied to him:



> I actually don't think that it is primitive in design at all. In fact it resembles so many of the factory-made mandolins made in the US, Italy and elsewhere by various manufacturers. The curious part is that by 1933 Mr. D'A was already into building carved top guitars in his shop. The bowlback mandolin especially was seriously on its way out. Why would someone commission him to build something that looks (to me anyway, from the photos) like you could buy for cheap almost anywhere? In addition, if he were to build a mandolin in 1933, why a bowlback, why not a carved one like Gibson and Lyon & Healy were making for about 15-20 years or so at that point?


Jim

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## guitharsis

Bid unsuccessfully on the two deMeglios.

As a beginner would I be better off with something from Musikalia? Noticed they have some smaller bowlbacks for women and children.

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## Jim Garber

> Bid unsuccessfully on the two deMeglios.
> 
> As a beginner would I be better off with something from Musikalia? #Noticed they have some smaller bowlbacks for women and children.


I would try the Musikalia before buying. I believe that you can do better. As to size... how small are you? Mandolins are small instruments to start with and most bowlbacks and a 13" (330mm) scale. Why would you need something even smaller? 

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

I have both an 1897 de Meglio and a recent Musikalia instrument I bought as a present for my mother-in-law. There is really no comparison in quality. Then again, if you go vintage, you have to make sure that the instrument is at least in playing condition.

I see no reason for a reduced-size mandolin designed "for women", as the Musikalia catalogue claims. Women have played normal-size mandolins ever since the instrument was invented.

More info anon, if you wish. I could even write you a more detailed, direct message, so as not to bore the kind and gentle MC-colleagues with things they have read before.

----------


## guitharsis

Thanks for your quick reply, Jim and for your good advice.

Just noticed that the Musikalia mandolins for women are half round. Think they may have been designed with something other than height in mind. I'm only 5' but think I'd be OK with one of the others.

Doreen

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## guitharsis

Thank you too, vkioulaphides. Yes, I would certainly appreciate any advice you could give me on or off the forum. My e-mail is: guitharsis@hotmail.com

Doreen

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## Jim Garber

Ian (and others):
You must know of this German-made Embergher style. Any further details? 

[I am not pursuing this one]

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Doreen, please just call me Victor. 

Since this is hardly confidential, I will post public, unless I hear screams of "We've heard that before!"

My de Meglio is a lovely instrument, indeed. The purchase-price, however, (which was most favorable) has tripled plus to reach the current, "total cost". The instrument is 100% authentic, with original bridge, frets (!), tailpiece, etc. Au contraire, it is 99% structurally perfect, as the neck is ever so slightly warped, causing the action to be a fraction of a millimeter higher than I would have wanted it to be, especially in the highest positions. 

If shopping for vintage, please bear in mind this a bitter pill to swallow for some of us: Even with an instrument by a reputable luthier, even with the aid of the best repairperson you can find on these shores, even then you may be confronted with the harsh reality that vintage may never be able to be brought to present-day structural integrity. This, or the cost of a complete, bottom-up reconstruction would cost twice the price of a prime-quality modern instrument.

The instrument I bought as a present is (if I remember correctly) the 602/2 model, which comes with a walnut bowl; it also comes with a _mahogany_ bowl upon request, which I opted for. If nothing else, it was an oddity and I am curiously attracted to those#ehm, SOME of those.  

It's an OK mandolin: It plays reasonably in tune, with a simple, somewhat raw sound, very, VERY loud. The workmanship is decent but, as the instrument was clearly built to a price-point, anything that could be built cheaply, WAS built cheaply. Of course, at a total cost of some $300, I got what I paid for.

Again, I see no reason why, at 5 ft. (or any height, for that matter), you would need anything but a "normal"-size mandolin. I don't see Musikalia's point.

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## Bob A

Jim, that German Embergher -style instrument has an armrest that is nearly identical to the Monzino I bought. The pickguard is also quite similar. (You can still see the Monzino on the Classical Mandolins link here at the cafe). 

If the sound is equally similar, it'll be a wonderful instrument. Sadly, it won't remain at the $200 level I shouldn't think. (I too will pass - I have my German mandolin, and a Monzino in the hand is worth any number of bush instruments).

Regarding "Ladies' mandolins" youall might recall that Carlo M has a lovely little Loveri that he's been trying to push off onto a female mandolinist, making the size argument. So far no one's bitten. 

If I knew then what I know now, I might have been well satisfied with a new Calace, and saved myself from chasing all these wooden will-o-the-wisps all over the globe, and dealing with restorers and insane ebay folk. But probably not, if only because of my peculiar curiosity. Still, it seems a reasonable course of action, especially since my only new bowlback has been pleasing to the hand and ear. There's much to say for getting a decent new instrument, and growing into it as it mellows. Certainly Victor, Jim and Eugene have kind things to say about their new toys.

But I've not heard much positive about the Musikalia instruments. And with a new Calace running around $700, why think twice?

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## trebleclef528

Jim,
Re the German made "Embergher Style" mandolin. Made by Wilhelm Herwiga of Markneukirchen,Saxony (The Vogtland Region.)(Herwiga is deceased but i don't know when) The Herwiga "Soloist" as this one is - is still a fairly desirable instrument in Germany and like many of the large German "Vogtland" mandolins is probably one of the forerunners of todays modern Germand bowlbacks made by Knorr etc. Described as "Embergher Style" because of the shape and angle of the the head and the kind of triangular shaped neck, you will notice it also has more of a "lute" shaped body than the modern more "rounded" German Bowlbacks.

I can't really make out in the photo but the fretboard appears to stop in the middle of the sound hole, whereas on the solost I have, and on others I have had, the fretboard continues to the end of the sound hole with 25 frets including the zero fret. In general they are very good and well made mandolins, and I have never seen one with the head engraved. Even more desirable (and hard to get) are the Herwiga Mandola's (which is what I use), They are "Half Onion" shaped and give a superb sound - such is the demand for these that they are now reproduced by Knorr picture here
Hope this helps,
regards,
ian

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## Eugene

Just killing time online, I perused the vintage instruments on Alfred Woll's site for the first time tonight. Only a few pieces, but they are mighty interesting, including a fine 18th c. Neapolitan, a true piccolo mandolin (specifically a quartino), a piece (I believe incorrectly) attributed to de Meglio, a fine Puglisi, the fanciest Stridente I've ever seen, and others.

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## Jim Garber

The vintage instruments seem not to be available on the English language site.

That unlabelled de Meglio only seems to resemble de Meglios I have seen in the peghead shape. Otherwise, it looks to be from another planet altogether with that pickguard and the vertically-aligned oval soundhole.

As far as I can determine, this is an Embergher reproduction, correct?

Jim

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## Eugene

Indeed, but you should be able to get there from the English page: e.g., Embergher reproduction. Go to the site, click on the English flag, and then click on "Reproductions." One of the resultant options will not be reproductions, but "Vintage Instruments."

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## Don

Hey,
I've been thinking about acquiring a bowlback but really don't know much about them.What can I expect to pay for a decent one?Any particular models/brands?New or vintage?Any feedback is appreciated.
Thanks,
Don.

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## John Craton

Don,

The Embergher style Herwiga Solist that jgarber links to above would be a good start. As he's not pursuing the auction, you may want to jump in and see what happens. I have a Solist in my collection, and it is a very nice instrument. Mine is strung with Thomastik Infelds (light tension at the moment, but the mediums sound great). It's not a Calace, but you could do a lot worse. It's anybody's guess what this one will end up going for, but I'd say it'll likely bring somewhere between $300-$500. That seems to be what other Solists have brought lately on eBay.

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## Bob A

Hey Don, someone is selling what seems to be a pretty nice Vega on the classifieds right now for $350 including shipping. That's about as good a deal you'll get on a decent playable bowlback.

You can get a new Calace for around 700 if you're willing to wait while they build it. Calace was the gold standard around the beginning of the 20th century, along with Vinaccia and Embergher, and a few others. The firm may not be quite up to the old days (think "Gibson" and "Loar" for comparison) but I'm told they still make worthwhile instruments.

Vintage; well, the Vega is vintage US. Italians are more expensive. As you may have read in the various posts, old bowlbacks always need some work before you can play them. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it's not. All bowlbacks are undervalued in the US, where they don't get much respeck. The best of them will blow your socks off, however. And I mean that in a GOOD way. But the sound is way different from an F5.

Spend some time reading old posts here, and you'll pick up lots of useful information.

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## vkioulaphides

Jim, the operative term in the description of the "de Meglio" on Woll's site is the word _sistema_, i.e. "de Meglio _system_". I think he means the little string-pressure device or watchamacallit beneath the bridge, screwed onto the top. I don't think he claims the instrument to be BY the de Meglio shop.

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## Martin Jonas

The German text on Woll's site is more than a little ambiguous. #I don't think Victor's interpretation is quite right, my reading is that they *do* use the epxression _sistema de Meglio_ as the name of a builder, but hedge their bets on whether that builder actually built this particular mandolin.

My translation of the German picture caption is:




> _"De Meglio Model" without label. #Sistema de Meglio built mandolins of this type around 1910._


Martin

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## Martin Jonas

> My de Meglio is a lovely instrument, indeed. The purchase-price, however, (which was most favorable) has tripled plus to reach the current, "total cost". The instrument is 100% authentic, with original bridge, frets (!), tailpiece, etc. Au contraire, it is 99% structurally perfect, as the neck is ever so slightly warped, causing the action to be a fraction of a millimeter higher than I would have wanted it to be, especially in the highest positions. 
> 
> If shopping for vintage, please bear in mind this a bitter pill to swallow for some of us: Even with an instrument by a reputable luthier, even with the aid of the best repairperson you can find on these shores, even then you may be confronted with the harsh reality that vintage may never be able to be brought to present-day structural integrity. This, or the cost of a complete, bottom-up reconstruction would cost twice the price of a prime-quality modern instrument.


Interesting to read this. #Either I have lower standards than Victor, or I have been exceptionally lucky in my Ebay purchases. #

I have bought two bowlbacks this year, both late 19th century Italians, both bought from sellers who got them through house clearances and didn't know anything about mandolins. #Neither mandolin appeared to have been played for a few decades. #Both have perfectly working original tuners and (apparently) original bar frets with only insignificant fret wear. #The Ceccherini has a very slightly warped neck, similar to what Victor describes for his de Meglio. #As a consequence, I needed to lower the bridge quite a bit, which was a fairly straightforward operation because of the way these bridges are constructed. #The Rinaldi/de Meglio (same model as Victor's I think) has a perfectly straight neck and great action all the way up the neck. #The bridge seems to be an original de Meglio bridge or a good facsimile, but probably not originally from this particular mandolin, as it wasn't well fitted to the top. #So, I did a bit of work on that, fitting it to the arch of the top and replacing the too-thin-for-my-taste brass saddle. #Apart from that, the only work needed for either mandolin was restringing and checking the bridge position for correct intonation.

In total, getting my Ebay purchases playable took a few days work, but nothing that would need an experienced luthier, and at no expense except for new strings. #The only original parts that I irreversibly altered were the bridges and even there only in a relatively minor way. #After this operation, both mandolins have actions at around 2mm at the 12th fret, intonate fine, and are a joy to play. #I feel no need for any luthier to work on either of the mandolins; and indeed would not know what I could possibly ask a luthier to do except for cleaning and refinishing (and that's a controversial subject at best).

Martin

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## guitharsis

Thanks all for your good advice. A deMeglio would be of interest to me, of course. The Calace also may be a consideration if looking for a new instrument. 

The 602 Musikalia was the one I was considering. I've never seen Carlo M's Loveri but one of the other posters on the forum may be selling a bowlback that I would be quite interested in.

Doreen

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## Jim Garber

Martin:
I think you have been lucky or at least skillful in determining which of the plethora of bowlbacks are in the best shape. 

I have bought quite a few on eBay and some are complete basket cases that need too much work (read $$$) to make them playable. Others are not worht it because they are not decent instruments.

The other factor here -- and this is my theory -- is that England was a hotbed for bowlback mandolin playing for longer than the US. Gibson style mandolins flooded the market and as a result the bowlback became near extinct. Also, in the US the strings that one would use on a Gibson were mistakenly put on bowlbacks, thereby destroying many of them. I think it was less likely in the UK for some reason, possibly because folks still played those instruments. 

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

If you wish, Doreen, I could re-post a picture or two of the instrument I got from Musikalia. Then again, a picture may be "worth a thousand words" but the actual _sound_ is truly beyond either words OR pictures. 

Martin, I certainly did not mean to sound TOO negative about vintage instruments in general, or mine in particular. Still, if you take an _in toto_ bird's-eye-view of what's out there, I am sure you will agree with me that much, very much of what is available is also not salvageable. That was my point#painting, perhaps harshly, with the broad brush of my innate skepticism.

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## guitharsis

Sure, Victor. I would love to see a picture of the Musikalia you purchased.

Doreen

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## Martin Jonas

> Still, if you take an #_in toto_ bird's-eye-view of what's out there, I am sure you will agree with me that much, very much of what is available is also not salvageable.


Victor -- I absolutely agree. #The vast majority of the bowlbacks appearing on Ebay on either side of the Atlantic is utter dross and it's not a pool to dip into for the unwary, or for those who cannot afford to write off whatever price they end up paying. #I am still extremely grateful to you for your kind advice when I was contemplating the Ceccherini, which was a great help in getting my bearings straight.

Incidently, it seems to me that the recent change to the way Ebay handles questions to the seller penalises those who know how to ask the right questions. #Previously, it was possible to identify potential bargains being put up by clueless sellers and to coax out the relevant salient details through judicious questions. #Now, questions and answers are being added by default to the public text of the auction and as a result all the details that your questions elicit are shared with the world and the bargain is no longer quite so secret.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

Oh, how _nasty_ the Efficient Market can be!  I'm with you, Martin.

Whad'yaknow, Doreen! The thread with the pictures is still recoverable: http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....t=17470

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## guitharsis

Thanks, Victor. Very nice. Your mother-in-law looks very happy to have received such a thoughtful gift.

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## Jim Garber

> Now, questions and answers are being added by default to the public text of the auction and as a result all the details that your questions elicit are shared with the world and the bargain is no longer quite so secret.


I am not sure that that is the case. I thought that those comments are posted at the discretion of the seller. Very often sellers posted info they got from knowledgeable bidders to clarify things etc. This was just a way for eBay to accmmodate that. I can't imagine that every email to the seller automatically gets posted by default.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Oh, by the way, Doreen, one more but important#thing that I ought to mention by way of warning: The Musikalia instrument arrived _sans_ setup: The bridge was incomprehensibly high and poorly fit to the contour of the soundboard. If buying from them, you should definitely factor in the cost of adjustment.

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## Jim Garber

> Hey Don, someone is selling what seems to be a pretty nice Vega on the classifieds right now for $350 including shipping. That's about as good a deal you'll get on a decent playable bowlback.


I see that that Vega is now on hold. Is that anyone we know? Don? Doreen? Anyone else?

It does look like a nice one and was obviously gone over by a competent luthier.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> I am not sure that that is the case. I thought that those comments are posted at the discretion of the seller. Very often sellers posted info they got from knowledgeable bidders to clarify things etc. This was just a way for eBay to accmmodate that. I can't imagine that every email to the seller automatically gets posted by default.


I may not have expressed this clearly. Sellers were previously at liberty to amend their description at any time, to include info they got from knowledgeable bidders. Very often, they didn't bother. The difference is that now, they get a nice simple dialogue saying "Do you want to add this question and answer to the item description? yes/no" and most sellers seem to chose "yes" (and why not, from their point of view).

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

I don't know the "holder" of the Vega but, on all _bona fide_ information, it should be just about the best you can get for the money.

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## Eugene

I just searched the classifieds for "Vega." #Oh my, that piece is mighty old, appears mighty healthy, and is mighty beautiful. #I label whoever has it on hold as a lucky soul.

Also intriguing was a flat piece built for Bruno's house brand (ad: 10839) being offered from Las "Vega"s. #I don't know who made it, but having an extended back of luscious Brazilian rosewood serving as the heel cap in Spanish-guitar fashion was a known quirk of the Larson brothers. #This may be by them, and, if so, would constitute a mighty bargain at US$275! If in the kind of condition stated, I think it would represent a mighty bargain no matter who made it.

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## Jim Garber

Here is one way to make it a little more difficult for the sellers to use your email info: After receiving the first email from them, email them directly, not thru eBay. That way they have to physically post the info. On the first email be very general about your questions.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

For those who want to play along at home...
The ad for the Vega is 11161.

Jim

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## Bob A

For those of you who would like to play "It Might Have Been" in an Italian/Blues format, be advised that Carmel Music (see the cafe links) had a gorgeous 1890s Vinaccia, with fluted maple ribs and a nice lack of excess ornamentation, which they sold for a reasonable $1250. Very pretty mandolin. (Pictures still available on the site).

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## Eugene

Yummy! ...And too bad it's gone.

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## Jim Garber

That Vinaccia is exquisite in its simplicity. That is one of those cupola headstocks that should have been on that D'A mandolin.

Here is an example of the polar opposite in ornamentation. Makes me very nervous...

On the other hand, elements of it are appealing: I like the shape of the headstock and the relatively understated inlaid pearl cherub.

Jim

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## Eugene

I love those crazy parquetry (?!) ribs.

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## Jim Garber

An interesting Nicola Calace from (I think) 1871 with an interesting butterfly-_shaped_ pickguard. From an interesting German site. Check out their listing of mandolin method books.

Jim

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## trebleclef528

Interesting that the name Nicola calace comes up. I saw my first one yesterday, a friend who's heading for the International mandolin symposium in Germany, rescued it from a skip..he's made a good job of restoring it and when he comes back from Germany I'll take some pictures.
He asked me if it was worth anything...I imagine it is but I know nothing of NICOLA - any info?

Barbara (my wife) is also attending the symposium and is going to speak to Alex Timmerman about the "Embergher Book" to see if he has any info (I think he really knows his stuff re Emgergher).... I agree with Bob.it would be good if there would be a book on Vinaccia and Calace with tonnes of lovely photos.
Cheers
Ian

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## Eugene

Nicola Calace allegedly has some ties to Nicola Turturo of the US...it was speculated they are one in the same character! #I have handled several Turturo instruments including one very Calace-esque lyre mandolin. #Do they count?

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## Jim Garber

> Nicola Calace allegedly has some ties to Nicola Turturo of the US...it is speculated they are one in the same character! #I have handled several Turturo instruments including one very Calace-esque lyre mandolin. #Do they count?


Strange doings on Nicola, eh? Sparks believes that Nicola Calace (1859-1924) and Nicola Turturro were the same person. Part of that makes sense since The mandoliri were made by both makers and are very similar.

On the other hand, Lawrence Libin in his book _American Musical Instrumens in the Metropolitan Museum of Art_  has Nicola Turturro being born in Bitonto, Italy in 1872 and dying in NYC in 1953. In addition, Turturro has a patent on a mandolira under his name in NY in 1904. 

What is going on here? I guess one question is why Nicola would change his name anyway?

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Spite; resentment; sibling-rivalry; jealousy.

Nicola was allegedly sour about being overshadowed by his far more illustrious brother, and about the family showing preference to Raffaele.

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## Martin Jonas

I guess one explanation would be if Nicola Calace were not the same family as Raffaele. In this case, he may have used the "Calace" name for a bit of reflected glory, reverting to Turturro either because he wanted to be known for his own merits, not someone else's, or because the other Calaces were not amused and stamped on him.

Pure speculation, though.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

Folks, there IS factual information on this on Calace's own website; look under "History". Nicola and Raffaele were in fact brothers. The Turturro surname was maternal. This much is fact; the rest...

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## Martin Jonas

So there is -- I withdraw my speculation (which in any case crossed over with Victor's much more informed post).

Martin

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## Jim Garber

So... was Lawrence Libin mistaken? His Turturro seems to have lived and died at different times. 

Jim

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## Eugene

> Editor's Note: For a while it was believed that Nicola Calace came to the US and changed his name to Turturro. Photos have established that Nicola Turturro & Nicola Calace were two different men. However, they probably worked together in New York -- there is good evidence for that -- and both the families agree.


This comes from Mike Holmes's Mugwumps page on Turturro.

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## vkioulaphides

Funny, that the Calace family would be mistaken about this...

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## Martin Jonas

Another auction here, this time for an interesting auction catalogue rather than an instrument.

Martin

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## Eugene

> Funny, that the Calace family would be mistaken about this...


Holmes's page used to speculate that Nicola Turturro and Calace were on in the same; the line that they are distinct was added a year or so ago. #On the Nicola-s being two separate entities, Holmes says "both the families agree." #That Calace history has been online forever, even before the Calace web site was updated. #I suspect that, in true Calace-shop fashion, they just never bothered updating that strip of text.

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## Eugene

> Another auction here, this time for an interesting auction catalogue rather than an instrument.


Christies catalogues are listed all the time. I've never bought on, but I have been curious. Anybody else out there actually buy one?

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## vkioulaphides

*sigh* You think you know a guy...  

Perhaps it is that I have played (and/or written) entirely too many operas that makes me so credulous. Still, mandolin-playing Italians I know repeat the story told on the Calace website in whispered tones, as if it is Gospel, dug deep in the Apocrypha. 

Still, it sounds so credible, so in tune with the darker side of human nature! Oh, well... As the Italians themselves say, _se non è vero, è ben trovato_: If it's not true, (at least) it is well made-up. *sigh*

It is also inconceivable to me that the Calaces would be wrong in this. After all, I know with certainty every parent-to-child and sibling relationship in MY own family going back at least as far as the last quarter of the 19th century. How could the Calaces have made such a blunder, in their allegation that brother Nicola changed his surname in America?

It seems, then, that the new-and-improved Truth of the Matter goes something like this: Nicola *Calace* was, of course, Raffaele's brother; for reasons known only to himself, he did in fact move to America; as confirmed by both his family and the Turturros, Nicola Calace collaborated with Nicola Turturro; again, for reasons known only to himself, Nicola Calace opted to work under Turturro's name, i.e. signing/labeling the instruments he made with Nicola Turturro's name.

This makes sense. The truth seems to have slipped away from the Calaces right between Nicola's work under a (presumably "senior") partner's trade-name and the alleged change in his OWN surname a change that, considering the era and the heritage, would be construed as the ultimate and most vehement renouncement of one's family. The alleged version, of course, makes for a fascinating operatic libretto, in the Italian, romantic tradition.  

Am I getting closer to _Diva Veritas_?

----------


## Eugene

_Everybody_ seems to have bought into that story for a great long time. #It's not hard to imagine a gifted Nicola Calace, feeling resentful and alienated by the massive success of a gifted Raffaele, striking out on his own and simply cutting ties to the family. #When the Turturro lyre mandolin appeared, it would have been easy to speculate from the mother country regarding the identity of Nicola Turturro.

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## Jim Garber

So... Turturro patented his mandolira. But which came first: the Calace version or the Turturro and are they different enough for one to be patented?

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Speaking of Nicola...here is an artistic photo of a 1902 mandolin by N. Calace.

Jim

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## Bob A

Ahh, families. Every one has a skeleton in some musty old closet that no one wishes to open. Still, the old bones do add flavor and spice to the gossip that percolates. And if the family is well-known (notorious?) enough, the word spreads beyond the circle.

Eugene, I've not bought a Christie's catalog, but have a bunch of old Sotheby's. They are a picturesque and mildly useful reference, especially if a list of prices realised is included. But $80 seems rather steep. Used to find them around for 10-25.

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## Jim Garber

What is the story with this one. The seller says it is French but it has a strong resemblance to those German guitar-lutes.

And I haven;t a clue about this 10 string thing either.

Jim

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## Eugene

> So... Turturro patented his mandolira. But which came first: the Calace version or the Turturro and are they different enough for one to be patented?


The Calace came first. They were made when Raffaele and Nicola were still partnered as the Fratelli Calace.

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## Eugene

> What is the story with this one. The seller says it is French but it has a strong resemblance to those German guitar-lutes.
> 
> And I haven;t a clue about this 10 string thing either.


Definitely, the first bit is German and not French. However, I'm not even certain I know what to call that 10-string beast. What is that!?

----------


## Sellars

How about this Calace on the German Ebay?

Any advice for bidding on this item?

R

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## Jim Garber

> Any advice for bidding on this item?


These always seem to reamin low until the 11th hour an then the usual flurry of snipers. This one would prob go for around 800-1000, my guess.

Good luck... I hope you get it. It looks like a decent simply-ornamented lowend Calace.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> These always seem to reamin low until the 11th hour an then the usual flurry of snipers. This one would prob go for around 800-1000, my guess.


Speaking of which...

I've just tried getting my hands on this Ceccherini on Ebay UK. With 90 minutes to go, it was at 102 Pounds, clearly well below value. In the end, it went for 357 Pounds. I bid up to 313 Pounds, but then dropped out. I think the buyer still got a good deal on this one, as it looks in seriously nice condition (much the same as that gorgeous one at the SInier de Ridder site); I just couldn't justify spending more on another bowlback, when I already have a very nice one by the same builder (and for a good deal less than half the price). Still, this one would have been nice -- the seller left the most interesting picture out of the listing: I attach a photo he sent me on request. I really would have liked being able to compare the double-top model with the single top one. As it is, we have to wait until I'm in the same room with either Victor or Bob for that.

Martin

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## trebleclef528

Hard luck on the Ceccherini Martin, I was following the auction and was pretty sure the bidding would rise substantially...still I was pretty sure you would get it. I see the winning bidder is in UK but I don't know them..they seem to know a good mandolin.
Better luck next time.
Regards,
Ian

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## trebleclef528

Re Jim's question on the "French" mandolin ...I have mailed the seller to ask him if it has a label or at least to tell me how he knows or thinks it is French. As Jim says it is very similar to the German Lute/Guitars that seemed to be popular up until the 1930's in Germany.

Having said that I have never seen one in "Mandolin" form. I'll let you know what the seller says.

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## Martin Jonas

> Hard luck on the Ceccherini Martin, I was following the auction and was pretty sure the bidding would rise substantially...still I was pretty sure you would get it. I see the winning bidder is in UK but I don't know them..they seem to know a good mandolin.
> Better luck next time.


Thanks, Ian. #I also noticed that the winner is in the UK, but with only four previous feedback, there is little to go on for the identity. #As it happens, I was the third-highest bidder -- there was one with no feedback from the US (a cafe member?) who traced the highest bid throughout the auction and just missed out.

I'm thinking of dropping the winner a line -- if he (or she) lives close to me, I'd like to meet up to compare Ceccherinis. #I'm really curious about how much effect the double top has.

I'm not sure there will be a next time -- as I said, I don't actually _need_ another bowlback, it's just that they're so addictive and it's so tempting to see Ebay sellers having treasures on their hands without knowing it.

For the time being, I can keep myself busy figuring out how to set up and play my brand-new flatback bouzouki instead...

Martin

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## guitharsis

I was also bidding on this one. Was the second highest bidder at 350 Pounds and the bidder who held the highest bid at 104 Pounds for awhile. Guess it just wasn't meant to be for either you or me Martin.

Something else will come along, I'm sure. Just missed out on a couple of deMeglio mandolins too. I'll keep watching for your auctions Ian. 

Doreen

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## Jim Garber

Just think, Martin and Doreen...you also missed out on that Carson Robison book. You could have been playing cowboy songs on that ole Ceccherini.

Jim

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## Nat

Here's a nice Galiano/Ciani:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....49&rd=1

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## Jim Garber

> Here's a nice Galiano/Ciani: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....49&rd=1


It looks nice except for the replaced tuners. That BTW is what I would have expected a D'Angelico bowlback to look like. I believe that Ciani was related to D'Angelico.

Jim

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## Eugene

Oh my! The story goes that Ciani was D'Angelico's uncle and that D'Angelico apprenticed in the Ciani shop from his tender pre-teen years. Their names are so inextricably linked, that pretty much every instrument that comes up with a Ciani label seems to be attributed to D'Angelico in an effort to make it more desirable. I think the case could be made pretty convincingly for this Ciani piece. The headstock was obviously built to hold a cupola. This piece looks pretty similar to the mandolin attributed to D'Angelico in Gruhn & Carter's big and beautiful picture book. I'm looking forward to bidding fireworks if the characters with D'Angelico familiarity find this one.

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## guitharsis

That is a pretty one too.

Since I don't have a bowlback and am in no hurry, it's fun to bid. Over time though, it may become frustrating - bidding and not winning. 

A Musikalia or a new Calace for $700 is starting to make more sense. . . .

Doreen

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## trebleclef528

Re Jim's Question of the 2nd on the "French Mandolin" here is the reply I received from the seller ( I still think it's German - but there again I've been wrong before especially telling the difference between a Balsamo and a Vinaccia..ha ha, glad I can laugh about it now!)
QUOTE:

"I am sorry, no there isn't a label, I am just going under the asumption it's French because I bought it on my travels through France, but indeed it could originate from another country and been taken to France. So on the pertinence of your question, it is true to say that there is no sign to indicate that it is French. I know nothing about musical instruments and bought it for its lovely shape, and perhaps collectors might know its origin by the shape of it? Best regards, Sophie.
END QUOTE

----------


## vkioulaphides

Doreen, on the full costs of acquiring a new Calace in the U.S: 

Mine (Model 26) was 600 euro last year, ex-works; add the hard case, 65 euro, plus 75 for shipping and handling, and you have 740; factor in the unfavorable currency exchange rate, plus the flat fee banks (and similar financial institutions) will charge you for an international check, and you are looking at U.S. $1,000 in the very least.

A good buy, still, and one I am happy I made. I only wanted to apprise you of the _total_ cost involved. 

In comparative terms, I would NOT have spent this much on a Musikalia instrument. Quite frankly, I see the very reason for buying from them evaporate at the "higher-end" models they sell, i.e. $1,000 and above.

If I were unhappy with my Calace, I am sure I could have sold in in the U.S. and recovered a significant percentage of my expenses; not all, and with some loss, but still I would have come out fairly unscathed.

If, however, you spend $1,000 on a (by definition) generic Musikalia instrument and you are unhappy with it, how much of the money you spent can you recover? Little, very little... 

In other words, I see the validity of buying advisedly! from Musikalia only at the $300-500 range. Then again, at that price-range you may be able to get some truly wonderful vintage piece, if you are lucky and knowledgeable enough.

Of course, my view only...

----------


## Jim Garber

I emailed the seller of the D'A mandolin and he informed me that he has an offer for $3800 for it! The seller thinks he could even get more but I think he should take the money and run. Hah! I still think it is an import sold thru his shop and not made by D'A. 

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Stories like that make me think I ought to sell all my bowls right now and retire on a Greek island hey, what am I saying? I ought to BUY myself an island with the proceeds!

Then I wake up.

----------


## Jim Garber

I was at a music store years ago once that had a D'Angelico electric. it tunrs out that there was a point in the 1950s that D'A ordered plywood bodies fom United in NJ and put some necks on them and electronics. They are around today but not worth anything like a fully made archtop or mandolin. I think this is even less that that, IMHO.

In fact, this Ciani-Galliano_D'A connection brings up the possibility that this is merely a lowend Galliano.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

Well I cast a trivial bid at it at right around the minimum. #I really don't need it. #Until I heard of the secret offer of $3,800, I thought I might get lucky and at least be able to sell it for more by exploiting the Ciani-D'Angelico connection if I didn't like it. #If any of you lot really want this thing, feel free to cast a real bid at it without guilt.

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## guitharsis

Victor,

Thanks for your good advice and for the update. If I were to purchase a Calace I wouldn't necessiarily want a hard case with it, maybe just a bag, so that would keep the cost down a little more.

If I were to puchase a Musikalia, it would be one of the less expensive models which would probably be quite adequate to get started. 

I also know of a vintage bowlback I can order from a UK website that would sell for about 121 Pounds shipped. That might be good to get started too. Maybe not . . .

Was surprised that the Ceccherini sold for as much as it did. Didn't think it would sell for that much. Thought it might be in the same range as the deMeglio. Not really interested in the Ciana/Galiano. Good thing.

Last week I won $450 in a raffle. It was a fund raiser given by the Italian Womens Civic Club that I belong to. It'll certainly help and I can't think of a better way to spend it than on an Italian bowlback. 

Doreen

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## Martin Jonas

Doreen --

Hobgoblin UK list a number of vintage bowlbacks, including a Ceccherini and a de Meglio. However, wheras most instruments on that list have a price next to them, neither of these two do, which I feel is not a good sign. The Washburn at 599 Pounds doesn't strike me as cheap (depending on condition, of course), so I wouldn't hold my breath on the others.

Martin

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## guitharsis

Thanks very much Martin. I'll check it out.

Doreen

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## Eugene

Brent Graves has a fine Washburn style 215 listed in the classifieds (ad: 11174). #Brent plays and I'd wager that when he says a piece is "in very nice condition," it can be believed.

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## Jim Garber

Back to the D'Angelico bowlback. I contacted John Monteleone and he gave me permission to post his comments:
Jim



> ### I think that it is entirely possible.# D'Angelico had worked for his uncle, Ciani in New York prior to setting up his own shop.# I'd love to know more about this Ciani guy, where he was located and his years of operation.# It was a violin shop but I would bet that it was also the scene of a lot of guitar and mandolin activity as well.# It am guessing that Ciani came from Naples or somewhere in that vicinity, where mandolin making was of course very common to violin makers.# A lot of these violin/guitar/mandolin makers set up shops in New York, Phila., and Boston when they migrated to the US.# It would be no surprise that John D. had also learned the bowlback craft during those early years too.
> 
> ### Now, I believe that I have seen this mandolin before and it could have been at Chinery's house.# I saw it somewhere.# As far as I know it is genuine.# The label looks right and the binding as well.# I own the second guitar that John made and have worked on many of his guitars and mandolins.# This binding is about right for it.# The spruce is in my opinion not good enough for a Gagliano or Vinacci mandolin, but is more in line with the American instruments who made more use of red spruce.# That's what this looks like. 
> ### I think that John may have started this mandolin prior to setting up his own shop, maybe even starting to make it in Ciani's workshop.# He may have just completed it and then with the focus on guitars as it was, he probably elected to not make mandolins until the bug hit him again in the late thirties.# By that time the bowlback was history and John looked to the Lyon and Healy and Gibson instruments for inspiration.
> 
> ### To make a final analysis of this mandolin I'd have to see it in person but yes, I think it's kosher.
> 
> In fact there is also a reference made to John's early Neopolitan style of making mandolins in the "Acquired of the Angels" by Paul Schmidt.# So there must have been more than one according to that book and I believe that to be true.


Interesting... so it may very well have been made by the master in his early days. 

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Here's another Calace on Ebay Germany, built in 1935 and somewhat more ornate than the one ending today. With eight days to go, it's already a good deal higher than the other one, as well. I _really_ don't like those D-shaped soundholes, though. Oh, and he says he'll only dispatch to Switzerland, which seems unusually parochial. Talk about limiting your market.

Also a Puglisi, currently at the grand price of 2 Euro.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Brent Graves has a fine Washburn style 115 listed in the classifieds (ad: 11174). #Brent plays and I'd wager that when he says a piece is "in very nice condition," it can be believed.


And the other Washburn in the Classifieds (#11201) looks in pretty good shape as well for $200 including shipping.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

Doreen, I would advise against having a new Calace or any instrument, for that matter shipped without a hard case; plain too dangerous for the mandolin. I would advise, instead, that you do get the case and, if you really need to recover the money you spent on it, sell it through the MC classifieds. They are certainly not cream-of-the-crop cases but, at 65 euro, I am sure you can sell one and retrieve what you spent on it.

But, as above, you may be able to do better elsewhere...

Best of luck.

P.S. Oh, and... congratulations on the raffle (and your plans to spend the money on such a worthy cause)

----------


## Martin Jonas

> These always seem to reamin low until the 11th hour an then the usual flurry of snipers. This one would prob go for around 800-1000, my guess.


Close -- 755 it is (155 more than you would pay for a brand new one of the equivalent current model). Have you thought of going into the valuation business, Jim?

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> Have you thought of going into the valuation business, Jim?


I have been pretty close on a lot of instrument valuation. I have been dealing with these things for years now and am an avid eBay observer.

I also had a string of luck winning baby delivery date pools for some reason. I am not sure if there is any connection.

Jim

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## guitharsis

Thanks everyone for all of your helpful comments.

I've decided to order a Stridente, minus the string guard which I thought was a bit too ornate, from Pamela's Music
www.pamelasmusic.co.uk. It was 160 Pounds plus shipping.

Will let you know what my impressions are when I receive it.

Doreen

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## vkioulaphides

Stridentes are fine, reputable instruments. If the company you ordered yours from is as reputable I don't doubt; I simply don't know them you should be very happy with your purchase.

Best of luck and... keep us posted!

Cheers, 

Victor

----------


## Eugene

> Thanks everyone for all of your helpful comments.
> 
> I've decided to order a Stridente, minus the string guard which I thought was a bit too ornate, from Pamela's Music
> www.pamelasmusic.co.uk. #It was 160 Pounds plus shipping.
> 
> Will let you know what my impressions are when I receive it.


This one? #If so, it looks very nice; the decor looks lush but tasteful. Congrats and welcome to the club! #Stridente was active from the late 19th c. into the early 20th. #Some of the early pieces lacked a tailpiece; the strings were fixed to the instrument via four hitchpins, often of ivory, set into the tailblock. #I can't tell if the mandolin pictured features that set up, or an early version of metal tailpiece with four metal knobs on an uncovered steel plate. #Whichever, enjoy! #I'm looking forward to your review.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Uhm... Doreen: I just looked it up and am a bit confused. Did you not like the tailpiece cover? Was it not original to the instrument? (I cannot tell from the vague images) So, you decided to leave it with the seller? 

Please shed some light.

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## Jim Garber

Doreen:
Congratulations and welcome to the Order of the Bowl. I have not yet received my Stridente from a rather slow-moving seller on eBay. Yours looks a little fancier than mine does (if I ever get it) but tasteful in its decor. 

I have written to Pamela's on a few things. They seem like a good shop and I am sure that if there is any problems they will back it up.

Jim

----------


## guitharsis

Thanks everyone. I'm excited to be receiving it. #

Yes, Eugene that's the one. #Your comments are always very informative and interesting.

Victor - I e-mailed Pamela that I liked the Stridente but that the tailpiece was a bit ornate for my taste. #She responded that it would be 5 GBP less without it and that it was not a tailpiece but a clip on string guard. #I then e-mailed her back and said if it was original it was OK to leave it. She e-mailed that it was not original. #I e-mailed back that it was OK to leave it anyway, but by that time she had already sold it to someone else (maybe the person who purchased the Ruffini).

Thanks, Jim. #We'll have to compare notes.

Doreen

----------


## Jim Garber

BTW here are other views of Doreen's new Stridente.

The back resembles mine in the shape of the cap and (I think) the number of ribs.

Here is an interesting _Engish-made_ mandolin. You don't see too many of these.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I hadn't seen those views before. Interesting instrument, and looks in lovely condition. I'm sure you're going to have lots of joy, Doreen. From the side view, the action seems commendably low and I see it does have a 4-pin metal tailpiece (similar to the de Meglios), not just the hitching pins. Very peculiar closed tuners: I've never seen the engraved plates being on the front rather than the back of the headstock. I can see it would have some advantages: no need for bushings, for example, and no risk of strings getting trapped between pin and wood.

Martin

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## Eugene

> Very peculiar closed tuners: I've never seen the engraved plates being on the front rather than the back of the headstock.


They actually were pretty common early on in the modern mandolin's history. C.F. Martin & Co. used them on their very early line of mandolins (e.g., their G series). Weymann also used them quite a bit. I believe Bohmann did as well. They faded from use fairly early in the 20th c.

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## Jim Garber

To illustrate what Eugene said --here is an 1897 Martin similar to a G3.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Great! Having said what you just did, Doreen, I see no loss in leaving the clip-on thingy with Pam's. You had me wondering for a minute...

Lovely instrument! Enjoy to the fullest.

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## Martin Jonas

Another de Meglio at Ebay UK. Looks in pretty good shape, apart from the non-original bridge.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Check out this lyre mandolin. Very different from the Calace type. This one looks from the back like a std bowlback, almond-shape body with wings.

Of course, the seller has the bridge backwards and what look like ukulele strings on it. Still and interesting oddball. Looks pretty well made with fancy inlay and some other odd addition on the peghead.

My other question: what is up with Uruguay and why are all these Italian mandolins appearing there?

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Check out ad # 11316. Carlo has a package deal for those who want one each of the big three vintage Italian makers. A smorgasbord of mandolins for a mere 8000 + shipping. Let's see, if I sell my Pandini and my first born and my dog... 

Jim

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## Jim Garber

What is the story with this Salvino bowlback? Label says "Allievi dei Fratelli Vinaccia" but does that warrant thatsort of price... or am I just naïve?

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Hmmm. Angara & d'Isanto (who are also pupils of Vinaccia) come up quite frequently on Ebay UK, and get nowhere near that amount of money.

Martin

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## Eugene

> What is the story with this Salvino bowlback? Label says "Allievi dei Fratelli Vinaccia" but does that warrant thatsort of price... or am I just naïve?


The buyer could have saved a few pennies by moving early enough to exploit the "Buy it Now" price of US$499.99! ...And it needs a bit of work. I wonder if the top bidders just read past all the relevant info and only saw "Vinaccia."

I decided to bid on the Ciani, look away, and hope for the best. #It sold for so little over my bid, I now wish I'd watched and tossed another bid at it. #Ah well...

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## Martin Jonas

Three bidders that went overboard on the Salvino: from Italy, Japan and Taiwan. The winner is Italian, so one presumes he knows what "Allievi" means. Nevertheless, I agree with Eugene that it looks like they just saw "Vinaccia" and ignored all else.

Martin

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## guitharsis

Jim,
Curious about your Pandini. It's not a bowlback? Carlo does have some nice stuff.

Doreen

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## Jim Garber

> Curious about your Pandini. It's not a bowlback? #Carlo does have some nice stuff.


Yes, the Pandini is a bowlback and a very good one IMHO. it is one of the first brand new instruments I have ought in some time tho. I have this strange predilection for vitnage ones. Up until now I have only owned American vintage bowlbacks. Hanging out with you folks gave me a thirst for obtaining a real vintage _Italian_ one.

I was joking that I would sell it in order to afford Carlo M's package deal.

BTW, my Pandini is pictured on page one of this thread.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I was watching the auction on this Calace with half an eye to see if by some miracle it might remain within my budget. #Well, it hasn't: 30 minutes to go and it's shot up to £715.94. #Still not a bad price for a 1934 Calace Style 15, which the seller has assured me is readily playable and has been played regularly by himself. #So, if anybody else is interested and quick to the draw, it's all yours (if you can beat off the competition from Italy and Switzerland). #The seller told me that contrary to the description, he's happy to ship abroad.

Martin

PS: Now ended: 2810 Swiss Francs ($2340). That seems rather high even for a Calace.

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## guitharsis

Thanks, Jim. What a beautiful instrument! It looks extremely well made - nice woods etc. Knew you were just joking about selling it  

Doreen

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## guitharsis

Martin,

Did you see the Ceccherini on ebay? #It looks to be in pretty good condition.

So that's what a vintage Calace looks like. Nice!

Doreen

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## Martin Jonas

Doreen -- I hadn't seen it. Thanks! I'll see how it goes but may well consider it.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Is this the Ceccherini?

This one BTW has the typical Alban Voight seller label discussed elsewhere on this board.

Very nice. I envy those of you in the UK. There seem to be an amazing amount of quality italian bowlbacks. Is that so only on eBay in the UK or is it so in regular music stores as well. Maybe we need to make a buying trip over there one day...

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> This one BTW has the typical Alban Voight seller label discussed elsewhere on this board.


It does indeed have the same label. The label in this one is actually signed by Umberto, unlike the one in mine or in any of the other photos I've seen. No idea what that means, but it suggests at least that the Voigt label was already pasted into the mandolins in Napoli, rather than on receipt in London.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Is this really a 1908 Embergher? Very plain mandolin, and the photo of the label is almost entirely in the shade, so that I can't read whether the Embergher name appears on it. Currently at £75, which is a very unlikely final price, if the piece is authentic...

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Currently at £75, but 5+ days to go. I doubt it will stay that low.

Later labels were larger and fancier. Here is one from a 1904 mandolin showing more of the label and a different address. The mandolin is was on is only slightly fancier than this one. 

Does anyone have the history of Embergher addresses? Did he move his shop a few times?

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Thanks for the label, Jim. That's a different address, but looks very much like the same style of label otherwise, so that's a good sign for authenticity I guess (at least of the label).

Martin

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## Bob A

Neck and bridge look right. A low-end model. I tried to get a similar example from a Dane a year or two ago; we were unable to come to terms at around $1500. 

I wonder if the Vannes Dictionnaire would have the label series. If I had the time and opportunity to follow up, and the French language skills, I'd look into it. I can't envision a more useful tool for those of us floundering around seeking info on European instruments.

BTW the Embergher book mentioned elsewhere ought to be coming out sometime in the forseeable future. I emailed the folks who are doing it: they said it's in English, thankfully, and they promised to follow up when it is published.

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## etbarbaric

For what its worth, the peghead, neck profile, machines, bone pegs, and bridge look right for Emberghers of that period. Also, from what I can see of the photo, the inside of the bowl appears to be lined with spruce shavings... an Embergher trademark.

But yes, clearly a low-end model in any case.

Eric

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

This is a wonderful and completely original early Embergher with a ´butterfly scratchplate´, a caracteristic on his mandolins, mandoliolas and mandolas normal for that period. 
Also the type of label is correct for the year and the address of Embergher´s outlet that was located at the ´Via delle Carrozze No 19´ in Rome, at that time.

The only thing that is unfortunately missing is the part of the tail-piece that covers the part at which the strings are attached.


It´s a very nice ´high´ low-end student mandolin 
or, 
as Embergher himself pointed out in his catalogue, a: 


*Mandolino da studio* Tipo *A*.


One to go for, I would say.


Best,

Alex

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## mandocaster

I am looking for a decent, inexpensive (less than $500), bowl back to play at Italian/classical gigs instead of my Givens. I have been looking at the Ceccherini mentioned a few posts back.

Here's one that looks nice, but I can't find anything on the maker.

Willy Hums on EBAY

The case looks water damaged, but the mandolin seems fine except for the funky pegs. Any thoughts?

----------


## Eugene

I've been eying that as well (just out of curiosity, not with the intent to bid, so feel free). I've not heard of ol' Willy Hums. I really like the maple. Markneukirchen was a major center of instrument production; that's where C.F. Martin Sr. originated. This piece looks to me like an effort to arrive at a decent working-class knock-off of a Calace. I suspect it would be a decent player if the neck is healthy. If not the tuners, I'd probably replace all the tuner buttons for consistency.

----------


## Bob A

The Hums certainly has The Look. And it looks like it was put together by someone who knew what he was doing. If it stays in your price range, it could well be well worth the cost.

Another plus is the age - about 50 years, long enough to be well broken in, yet not so old as to require serious intervention. And lovely wood, as Eugene pointed out.

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## mandocaster

I will refrain from bidding on the Ceccherini, since Martin is interested and it will likely go out of my range. I am going to go for the Hums, I think.

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## Eugene

Cool. If you happen to score this piece, I'm keen to hear your impressions of it.

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## Martin Jonas

> Another de Meglio at Ebay UK. #Looks in pretty good shape, apart from the non-original bridge.


I sort of lost track of this one (I don't need another de Meglio, although I'm happy with the one I have), and it appears so has everybody else -- it sold with only one bid for a desultory £30!

It's difficult to say from the description, but I think this was probably in pretty good shape. Its top looks absolutely lovely. I strongly suspect that the seller was confusing the transition between the veneered neck and the painted headstock with a structural problem. I have to admit that so did I when I first looked at my de Meglio, but I'm now satisfied that it's simply a part of the design. Somebody may well have got himself a bargain here with the seller putting off potential buyers with his description. Of course, it's also possible that there is actually a problem with the neck joint, but that shouldn't be apparent at the headstock end of the neck.

Martin

PS: Many thanks, Mandocaster, I appreciate it. Good luck with the Hums, which looks a nice maple bowl!

----------


## Eugene

Consarn it! I really need to redevelop my lost eBay addiction.

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## Jim Garber

*Embergher alert!*
Creeping up to to £361 at the moment and rising with 4.5 days to go. My hunch is £1000 -1200.

I think our friend Carlo M (or perhaps Marco or both) is attempting a coup. Note from the seller:



> This item will sell to the highest bidder. there will be no withdrawal from the auction under any circumstance.
> There have been so many offers etc to end early but my reservation to withdraw no longer applies as I feel it would not be in the best spirit of an auction.
> Be assured that it will go to the highest bidder.
> Best of luck to all those who bid to the end!!!!!!!


Jim

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## Eugene

I wish more eBayers maintained such policy.

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## Jim Garber

I would think that it is in the seller's interest to do so. The longer the auction the higher the price, esp if there are a few crazy bidders. On the other hand, ready cash is a real lure.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

I agree. Then again, "the best spirit of an auction" is one of the better euphemisms for self-interest.

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## mandocaster

Did anyone we know score the Ceccherini?

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## trebleclef528

WILLI HUMS MANDOLIN
I hope it was one of the "Cafe" that got this one - I had'nt noticed the discussion about it. I bid and got pipped at the post. Hums was reckoned to be the best German builder of his time, even better than Herwiga.(by the way I wil be listing a Herwiga shortly - just thought I'd throw that in)) I had a Hums which I sold on to one of our orchestra members and the sound is simply outstanding. Eugene was spot on with suspecting it being a "knock off" of a Calace.

I hope it is one of the "cafe" that has it and that it sounds as good as the one in our orchestra.
Best wishes to you all
Ian

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## mandocaster

I am the post pipper, I am afraid.

Even though the mandolin looked like a high quality piece, I was worried that it was an unknown maker and of suspect value. It is great to hear the maker isn't unknown at all!
(except to me)

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## trebleclef528

Hi mandocaster
No need to apologise for an excellent peice of bidding. It will be interesting to ear how the Hums sounds. Apart from the one in my orchestra this one was the only one I've seen so I reckon they are becoming scarce.

I see that "Stringwalker" from Germany had bid on it - he knows a quality mandolin when he sees one so thats a positive sign.
Well I'm off in two hours accross the border to England (Brighton) for the Annual BMG Rally.
Happy Plucking!
Ian

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## Jim Garber

mandocaster:
 Hard to tell... did you get this one or not?

Jim

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## mandocaster

I got it, although the seller informs me that the shipping ($47) will take 4 weeks. hmph

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## guitharsis

Congrats mandocaster. Nice mandolin! Looks like you picked a good one. 

Shipping on my Stridente was a little more costly, about $70, but was a lot faster. Only a week.

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## Martin Jonas

> Did anyone we know score the Ceccherini?


I'm a bit confused right now. I dropped out at £403, a second bidder went up to £490, but the winning bid appears to have been from someone who goes around wrecking auctions, and who has now been thrown off Ebay. I assume that means that the second bidder, "Gibby59", gets the Ceccherini offered at one bid level above my bid, i.e. at £405. Whether he still wants it is anybody's guess. I guess that I may get it offered if he doesn't, but I'm now sending an e-mail to the seller to find out what the situation is.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Martin:
Good luck on this one. I don't know what the official eBay rules are in this case. It looks like Gibby was prepared to pay 480 for it tho.

Why this loser (Ianj8) gets off on this I don't know. Very strange. I did have some jerk do a buy it now on a guitar I was selling and he was a non-existent bidder who basically wasted my time.

On the other hand the Embergher is only at GBP 515.05 at the moment. Maybe save your pennies for that one.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> *Embergher alert!*
> Creeping up to to £361 at the moment and rising with 4.5 days to go. My hunch is £1000 -1200.


Hey, I am getting pretty good at this. Maybe I could make a living at it: guessing the results of bowlback auctions.

Final tally for the plain Embergher: £1,031.60

Jim

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## Bob A

How about making your guesses about 50% lower, so I will stop being outbid? (I'd pay a commission for that service!)

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## Martin Jonas

This is getting very intriguing, and I still don't know whether I'll get the Ceccherini after all. The winner of the Embergher is gibby59, who also outbid me on the Ceccherini (and who in turn was outbid by the prank bidder, Ianj8). I know from the seller of the Ceccherini that gibby59 was offered to buy it at his highest bid price, £480, and that he would offer it to me in turn if Gibby doesn't want it. So, the question for me is whether Gibby is on his way to a bowlback collection and takes both, or whether he decided to bid on the Embergher only once he was outbid on the Ceccherini.

As soon as someone doesn't play by the rules (Ianj8 in his case), the smooth operation of Ebay starts to crumble fairly quickly.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

After the Calace and Embergher auctions of the last two weeks, this one completes the set: Vinaccia sold by Ian (Trebleclef528).

A bit ornate for my taste, but by no means the worst offender in that category.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

This Vinaccia looks very similar to one sold on eBay by seller anniverdi this past September.

I wonder if there is some question as to its authenticity as actually by Vinaccia. Aniverdi says "I cannot guarantee his autenthicity".

Jim

----------


## Bob A

I think anniverdi has yet another Vinaccia on ebay. Hard to believe two in the same week. (I disremember just who posted the second one; I'd seen Ian's).

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is the second Vinaccia sold by Anniverdi.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Ian's went for £770, which for an authentic one is amazingly low, but still a good deal more than twice what Anniverdi got on his auction last month (456 Euro). I thought both Ian's and Anniverdi's descriptions implied some element of doubt on authenticity, so maybe that's what kept the big hitters away. I'm sure both sales are the same instrument -- they have the same chunky non-original bridge. The winner now is gibby59, who also got the Embergher and who bid the Ceccherini up to £480.

Martin

----------


## Bob A

Martin, any word on the final disposition of the Ceccherini? (BTW, the label in mine is in fact signed by Umberto C.)

I suppose those of us who still hope to score a cheap quality instrument should hope that gibby59, and coasttocoastbooks, have satiated their hunger for the nonce, especially since there seems to be a fair number of decent instruments appearing on the 'bay.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Bob --

Yes, in fact. #I was going to wait until I have it in my hand before mentioning it here, but I don't think it makes a difference. #As it happens, Gibby59 decided not to take it when it was offered to him at his highest bid. #The seller has offered it to me (at my highest bid) and I have accepted it. #I'll pick it up in person next Wednesday, when I have a business trip to London where the mandolin is.

After some consideration, I decided to honour my original bid amount, even though I was in fact the lowest of the three bidders and, after the other two dropped out, the only one remaining. #Although I might have got it cheaper if I had waited for the seller to re-list, I think it's still a good deal, and as I'll collect in person, I will be able to ensure that the condition matches the description and I'm not buying a dud.

I'm intrigued by this one, because it has a number of distinct differences to the one that was on sale two weeks earlier (and went for a bit less than I will end up paying). #The inlaid border goes around the entire soundhole, rather than just the upper half; the headstock shape has a Vinaccia-esque hole in it, rather than the plainer shield-like shape of the others I've seen (but doesn't have the inlay shown on the Sinier de Ridder site); the engraved tuner plates are a different shape (hard to say whether that's fancier or just different); and the label is signed. #All of this may be indicative of a higher range model, but it may just as well only mean a different vintage. #As Umberto didn't put either model numbers or years on the label, and as there don't seem to be any catalogues or reference books, it's hard to see how we'll ever know.

I'll post more once I have it in my hands.

Martin

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## trebleclef528

calaceon German Ebay

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## Martin Jonas

Lovely bowl on the Calace, but the top looks like it has been pounded with a mallet. And what about the bridge position? Were Calace any good in the 60s? Those strings seem to be Thomastik-Infeld "Mittel" (black tops), which I would have thought is too thick a gauge for a Calace. That may explain top distortion and bridge position.

Martin

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## Eugene

...And that label. For being dated 1963, it looks like the label has endured 100 years of wear. I wonder if some water damage was involved. Of course, post-Raffaele mandolins don't hold such fascination as those built under his tenure. I haven't heard much good of Calace production in the '60s, but I personally have never handled a Calace made in the '60s.

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## mandocaster

Here is a pretty Martin (style 3?)

I don't remember my old Martin (long since sold) being signed, I don't know how common this was.

Martin bowlback

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## Eugene

I've never seen one signed. #Interesting. Of course, I haven't dug around under the soundboard of every Martin I've encountered with a mirror. #This is a style 2 and looks mighty tasty.

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## Jim Garber

I emailed the seller and asked for photos showing the string angle at the neck and it does look like a very playable one. $500-800 prob, my guess.

I also gave him the string caveat. he said that his luthier put the light gauge strings and I told him to be wary that many luthiers are not as informed as we bowlaholics.

Jim

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## Eugene

A couple years ago, this style 2 of mine, fully restored by Dan Larson, only claimed $500 on eBay. Disappointing (for me).

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## trebleclef528

Barbara (The wife) has a 1967 Calace - very good sound. We actually had two of these - identical and I think she sold one (or at least I did on her behalf) to one of the cafe members a year or so ago. 

If I could learn how to attach a picture to this site then you would have a better idea of what I'm talking about.
The photo is in "my pictures" file on my computer...Any info on how I can share this lovely picture with you would be appreciated.
Regards,
Ian

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## Nat

Has anyone mentioned this  Egildo yet? Would be nice to have some pictures of the back...

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## etbarbaric

Hi Ian,

To attach a file (such as a JPEG image) scroll down on the "Add Reply" screen, below where you are typing your message, and you will see something that says:

File Attachments

... and below that:

You may attach a file to this message.
Maximum file size (in bytes): 76800   ___ [Browse]

You can either enter a file name in the space, or select the "Browse" button to traverse your file system and select the desired file.

Good luck,

Eric

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## RSW

That Martin of Eugene's looks absolutely delicious. Why on earth would you ever sell such an instrument, especially with the full fingerboard (I assume that Dan L. did the adaption)? Somehow the Martin bowlback has escaped my orbit but it looks like a true player's instrument.

About the 1967 Calace's, they can also be very nice tonally though somewhat unfinished in their workmanship. I've seen and played a couple from this period and found them both to be exceedingly enjoyable to play.

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## Jim Garber

> Has anyone mentioned this  Egildo yet? Would be nice to have some pictures of the back...


This mandolin was on ebay some time ago and I think it didn't meet reserve.

Here is the back shot from the seller the first time. It looks like an Embergher from the front but is actually a flat back mandolin.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

I checked my Martin style 6 for a signature under the soundboard. I couldn;t see one with a mirror.

The only reason I can figure for Frank Martin to sign the top on a style 2 would be if he did the actual work or repairs on it. Unless he did sign all of them for some reason later on (1910).

Jim

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## Eugene

> Has anyone mentioned this  Egildo yet? Would be nice to have some pictures of the back...


What on odd listing. #It appears to start with a close up of the soundboard and move into progressively more eye-crossingly intense close ups without a shot of the whole instrument, front or back, anywhere. #Looking at the heal and reading the description, I'm assuming this must feature a flat back in spite of its Roman-style table. #It might be tempting if I could see more and the opening bid weren't so obscene.

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## Jim Garber

Here is the front of the Egildo.

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## Eugene

Ha, Jim has confirmed whilst I typed.

I sold the Martin to fund the purchase of more beautiful things, a ca. 1850 Staufer-style guitar by Hungary's Placht brothers in this specific case. #Martin's craftsmanship was as good as any on the North American continent, and I do sometimes regret parting with that style 2. #I got it with a badly fretted, borderline non-functional replacement fingerboard. #Dan crafted the fully fretted re-replacement, imitating the style of the original pearl position markers, and he did a fine job in that. #I love the tone of most Martins, but the tone of this one was a bit too stiff and stringent for my taste. Yes, I sometimes miss the style 2, but I console myself in owning a one-of-a-kind Martin with an ideal tone that serves as my favorite mandolin in all the world.

Another feature I really like of Martin mandolins as they moved into the early 20th c. was that they shifted the soundhole just a little southward to accommodate fingerboards with a full 20 frets. #Many American mandolins featured 20-fret extensions, but with only 17 or 18 full frets. #This hole repositioning and the resultant wider span of wood above the soundhole just looks somehow more robust. #Trivial, I know, but I like'em.

Of course, if you're really interested in bringing a Martin into your stable, Richard, there is another style 2 currently for sale that is linked above.

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## Bob A

Less than 16 hrs to go on a clean-looking Fratelli Vinaccia (1887) offerred by anniverdi. Currently at 310 British pounds, reserve not met.

Will no one be bringing this home?

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## Jim Garber

> Less than 16 hrs to go on a clean-looking Fratelli Vinaccia...


Don't you worry, Bob. It won't stay there at that low price. What do you say, £700-800?

Jim

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## Bob A

It'd probably be a steal at 700, but I've given up guessing ebay prices. You da man for that.

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## Martin Jonas

It went up to £1120 (over $2000), but as it turns out anniverdi had put an even higher reserve on it, so no deal. I really don't like reserve price auctions and I don't see the point. If he isn't going to sell for less than (say) £1500, then why not put that as the starting bid and we all know where we are. He has to pay the Ebay fees based on his reserve anyway, so he doesn't even save money.

I'm also a bit surprised, because although this one seems in fine condition, it's still a very basic Vinaccia. If we compare it to the Embergher student model last week, that one sold for just over £1000. I would have thought the two were fairly equivalent in reputation, desirability and condition. The Ebay bidders seem to agree, but anniverdi was looking for more.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Hmmmm.... I have failed and grossly underestimated. Oh well. Since it was pretty plain I assumed that it would go for less -- certainly less than the Embergher. 

We are all learning about this market piece by piece. Has anyone dealt directly with seller anniverdi BTW?

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

I have, Jim. Seems like a nice guy, based in Italy (Rome, I think) but fluent in English, prompt and helpful in his responses. 

I once corresponded with him regarding a (fairly) modern bowlback, with 33 maple staves, simple ornamentation, functionally perfect... you know, MY kind of mandolin.  

It went for some $300; I missed out, as I was flat out of cash, or in rehearsal/performance during the final minutes of the bidding, or both. Yup: $300.   Then again, that was _then_.

Besides, "I have too many mandolins already", said the fox.

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## Bob A

Well, now, I'm gratified that the Vinaccia is valued big time by the seller, if only for the satisfaction of having a similar example.

Now there's a 1920 Calace on the bay, two years older than mine, and with a cooler soundhole decoration. Opening at $2K, four+ days to go, and no bidders. Jim, step up to the plate and take a swing. Remember that batting .500 will get you into the Hall of Fame.

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## Jim Garber

I meant to track this one by Luiggi Uriani.

Anyone know any nackground on this maker. It looks lovely.

Jim

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## Bob A

Never heard of him, but man, thats a tasty looking instrument. Apparently the bidders and seller agree - it's near 800 euros already, and hasn't met the reserve.

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## Jim Garber

Bob: That one is over for now. I have a feeling that there is some backroom haggling or else we will see it again.

Jim

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## Eugene

I love the wacky fluting and alternating rib materials. I also like the simple decor and maple headstock veneer. Tasty indeed. The tuners look enough out of place in context, that I'd want to scrutinize them to determine originality. Too bad the seller pulled this.

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## Jim Garber

> Too bad the seller pulled this.


I don't think that the seller pulled it. It just went thru the std auction length.

Jim

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## Eugene

Ah, you're right. Maybe it will relist.

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## Martin Jonas

After agreeing a deal at £400 with the seller of the Ceccherini, I detoured on a business trip to London today to pick it up in person at his house. So, now I am the proud owner of _two_ Ceccherinis. Much cheaper habit than collecting Emberghers...

It was quite an interesting visit, anyway: the seller is a dealer in antique instruments, specialising mostly in violins, with sidelines in flutes and the occasional mandolin. I think Ebay is rather new for him (according to his feedback, this was his first auction as a seller) -- he gets his stock from "proper" antiques auctions, which was also the source of the Ceccherini. I had a quick look at the other four mandolins he had there as well: one Calace, one Cristofaro, one de Meglio and an unlabelled de Meglioesque one. He's considering putting them all on Ebay, so you may see them earlier rather than later anyway. 

The Calace is dated 1914, and is a plain entry-level, oval hole, no decorations on the pick guard, but a lovely maple bowl. It looks a bit sorry, but may well be restorable without too much trouble. There's no bridge, the nut has come off (but is still there, loose in the bowl), and there is a stable-looking (possibly fixed) top crack. The main structural problem is a peculiar back bow of the neck.

The Cristofaro has a very Calace-esque design on the front (D-shaped sound hole, rosewood arm rest), but is a flatback. Pretty good condition. The de Meglio is a fine 1A (1904, 20 frets, ebony fretboard), but with a non-original, though ok-ish, bridge and the unlabelled one is either a heavily and badly restored de Meglio or an unlabelled apprentice model: too many incongruities to count.

I guess if you're interested in any of these, drop him a line and see if you can pre-empt the Ebay listing.

The main bit of interest is the Ceccherini, of course. It's pretty startling: it feels like it has dropped out a timewarp. There are some usage marks, and quite a bit of smudging on the top (visible in the Ebay photos), but it looks startlingly new and unused: on looking at it, one might think it was sold at the Voigt shop maybe five to ten years ago and got some gentle playing in the meantime. It doesn't look restored, just never used to any great extent.

The strings are ancient of course, so tone assessment must wait. A bit of plucking on the old string sounds rather pleasant, though. I still have a spare set of Lenzners, so I'll put them on on the weekend. Neck is perfectly straight, no top warping, no sinkage, no indication of any structural issues. The action is a tiny bit higher than I have set the other one, but nothing dramatic.

Other than the double top (which the new one has and my old one doesn't), the design and decoration are fairly similar. It's more intricate on the new one, but I think I marginally prefer the inlay designs on the other one. However, despite the similarities, the visual impact is quite different for the two Ceccherinis: my old one is a characterful antique, with a bit of warping and a bit of wear, but aged visibly and gracefully, looking the part of a treasured 100-year old instrument. The new one is just that: new, and startingly so. I suspect it may have been played so little that it may need quite a bit of breaking in to develop its tone. But I'm very much looking forward to doing the side-by-side comparison of the tone of the double-top design compared to the single-top design. I wouldn't think there are too many people with both, so I'll be well-place for that comparison. I wonder whether its tone will be as dark like my old one: this is a very mellow instrument, miles away from the bright tone associated with Neapolitan bowls.

I'll have to think about that smudge on the top: it looks like dirt build-up from a player's hands and looks cleanable. However, I'm no sure what to use without damaging the ultra-thin finish of the soundboard. A slightly damp cloth (maybe with a bit of soap in the water)? A furniture polishing tissue? Something alcohol based? Does anybody have any experience in that direction?

More later.

Martin

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## mandocaster

Personally, I would avoid letting any alcohol touch the instrument. Too risky. It will quickly dissolve a french polish, for instance. A damp cloth would be the first thing to try.

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## Bob A

I've had success using naphtha (lighter fluid) to remove gummy deposits from mandolins. I'd be exceedingly cautious about it, though. It had no effect on the finish of my Lyon & Healy, but the exceedingly thin and unknown finish of these Italians is terra incognita to me.

My Ceccherini, double-topped, is far from a dark sounding instrument. I eagerly await your findings when once you've brought the new one into regular play.

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## Martin Jonas

Thanks, Bob and mandocaster. I'll see where I get with a slightly damp cloth and may well leave it at that. Interesting what you say about the tone of your Ceccherini. I love the tone of my single-top one precisely because it's so dark, but having a brighter tone from the double top should make a good complement. Some of the tone colour may come from the Consort strings, with their mellower flatwound A, but the darkness is clearly audible from the other strings as well. Maybe a different tonal colour is deliberate, for orchestral use vs. soloist use.

One thing I've noticed is that the wording on the label is a bit different: the new one says _Fabbrica di Mandolini e Mandole_, whereas the other one says _Chitarre_. I've never seen either a guitar or a mandola from him, but presumably the different wording reflects a different year of manufacture.

Martin

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## guitharsis

Congrats, Martin!

Hope this one meets or even exceeds your expectations for sound. #It will be interesting to compare it to your fist one. #

Doreen

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## Martin Jonas

Cleaning with a slightly damp cloth did the trick to remove the smudge and it looks much nicer now. There's a certain amount of general blotchiness in the wood, but I think that's just normal ageing, not actual deposits that can be cleaned off. I do wonder whether these blond spruce tops used by de Meglio and Ceccherini have any finish at all on them, or whether this is just unsealed wood.

Martin

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## Bob A

Two Calaces on ebay - one goes in 5+ hrs, opening bid at 2k, no takers; the other from Uruguay. Uruguay also has a Vinaccia. (The Uruguay connection is the same fellow who had a double-labelled instrument a while ago. Seems like he's paying closer attention now. Neither of these two have the presumed makers label visible, so attribution is perhaps questionable. But they look pretty good.)

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## Jim Garber

Two guys are battling it out for this nice 1900 Martin Style 4 sold by Lowell Levinger.

It is just starting... I wonder how high they will go... $1200? More?

I am convinced that on ebay, if you do quality photogrphy, you up your price as as seller.

Jim

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## Eugene

Wow, the quality of the photos is remarkable and, through the images, it appears as thought the condition of the instrument is as well. I love that old-school, Vinaccia-esque bridge that Martin would abandon shortly after this one was made.

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## Bob A

The possible Calace and the perhaps Vinaccia from Uruguay are sitting bidlessly; There's an Albertini trainwreck Lombard instrument there too. If I thought I could get it repaired for $500 in less than a year, I'd give it serious thought. Meanwhile perhaps the optimists among us would care to bid?

The Martin is a lovely thing. Jim's dead on about photo quality - my keyboard is crusty with saliva from the best of these things.

Actually there seems to be a whole bunch of interesting bowlbacks available this week, including one with a very interesting back; looks like the ribs continue unobstructed right up the back of the neck. I can't recall the maker, some one I've never heard of, but the instrument is visually fascinating. I'll come back with the maker later.

(Listed as by "Di Leo Camillo" - nice naked lady on the pickguard too. Looks like it'd need repair, but do check out the back).

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## etbarbaric

Yikes... the Camillo is a bit much for me... Not that I have anything against naked ladies on pickguards... its just that this one seems to have a goat-tee...

The back treatment is indeed interesting.

Eric

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## Jim Garber

Bob:
 We have *got* to get you up to speed on posting links! Copy the link from your browser window. When you reply to the thread hit the "http://" button. Paste the link into the first window. Then put whatever verbiage you want link to read (the word that will be underscored, like Calace.

In any case: here is the Camillo -- that one is a bit too roccoco for me but I agree: the ribs flowing into the striated neck is a feat of luthier art in itself.

there is actually something strange going on with this one's bidding tho: there are 42 small increment bids mostly by bidders with very low feedback. Makes me a little suspicious that there are some shenanigans going on.

The uruguay "Vinaccia" is here and the same seller's "Calace" is here. I have a feeling the location of these plus the questionable provenance may be holding some folks back. Also that Calace loks like it had been pretty much butchered and would have to be re-restored.

I can't seem to find that "Albertini trainwreck" you mention. Give me a clue -- or is the auction over?

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I've been sort of toying with the idea to bid on this wreck of an 1895 Angara & d'Isanto, just as a woodworking exercise, not in an expectation of getting it back to fully-restored condition. However, it has now risen above the range for a woodworking exercise kit. Maybe someone else fancies trying his hand at a bit of dowelling and bracing. It's a sorry sight, but a nice maple bowl. Of course, there may be all sort of other collatoral damage along with the decapitation.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

I thought that that Angara & Disanto was interesting also primarily due to the maple bowl. 

Confusing to me was the structure of the neck joint as shown in the photo.



Is that neck made of a core of lighter wood surrounded by a veneer of darker (mahogany). Looks odd to me.

Jim

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## Eugene

Yup, just a veneer over light wood. That was the _modus operandi_ of most luthiers way back in the era when luthiers were building their namesake (i.e., lutes).

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## Jim Garber

It seems like that technique was more work than necessary. You still have to carve the neck, right? Why not just do it once out of the mahogany?

Jim

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## etbarbaric

Hi Jim,

Veneer is not always merely decorative. Though less common on small instruments like the mandolin, the technique of veneering a light wood with a thin layer of hardwood serves a practical purpose in larger lutes and archlutes. This technique is basically monocoque construction and results in a *very* strong and light structure.

Best,

Eric

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## vkioulaphides

Bouzouki-builders, who use this technique extensively, claim that, by "counterbalancing" the grain of the various woods, they prevent warping.

Taking this to an extreme, perhaps, they often embed a rod of hardwood as the "core" or "spine" of the (white wood) neck, AND veneer it externally with some (same or other kind of) hardwood.

I don't know how relevant that would be in the case of mandolins; they are, after all, _short_-necked lutoids.

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## Bob A

Jim, I'd love to copy the link etc., but sadly am clueless. Do I have to do this manually, copying a string of gibberish onto paper and then reproducing same, or is there a series of "buttons" to push? Understand I really dislike the tons of minutiae these machines thrive on.

Anyway, the Albertini auction is over. No bidders at $499 and change. (Hint: it is ebay number 3759212938).

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## etbarbaric

Hi Bob,

When Jim says copy and paste, he means using the computer to do this. In your browser window, you will see the address (URL) of the Web page that you want to point to (http://www....).

- Select the entire address. This can usually be done by double-clicking in the address window... or alternately clicking, holding down, and dragging the mouse.

- Once the entire address is selected (highlighted) go to the edit menu of your browser and select "copy". This action copies the selected text to a little storage area on your computer called the clipboard.

- Then, following Jim's directions, go to the window where you are posting your reply to the message on the message board, press the "http://" button, double-click the "http://" text that comes up in the little window (you are selecting this text for replacement).

- Now go to the edit menu and select "paste". This will paste the URL that you had copied above into the little window.

- Click the OK button and you will get another window that will prompt you for some more text. This lets you enter a name for the link in your reply message.

I hope this helps,

Eric.

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## Jim Garber

That Albertini didn't look _that_ bad. I will get my Casini back in a few weeks and it only took a few months. I will let you know about the quality of the work and whether I would recommend this guy.

Albertini "train wreck"

Jim

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## Bob A

Italian 4-string mandolin
This is a test. In a real emergency, you'd better grab the instrument at hand.

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## Bob A

I'll be d*mned - it worked! Thanks, guys, you'll be seeing far too much, far too soon.

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## Jim Garber

Hey, Bob... 

I knew you could do it! Just for that you should celebrate and buy a Calace or two. 

Jim

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## Eugene

D*mn! I want that Brescian mandolin, but am debating myself on it and will likely be out of town (possibly on the water) when the bidding ends. Still debating. So I don't conflict with my cyber-friends, any other pursuers out there?

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## Bob A

By Brescian do you mean the 4stringer I posted? If so, I'm not going there.

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## Eugene

Yup.

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## Martin Jonas

> I've been sort of toying with the idea to bid on this wreck of an 1895 Angara & d'Isanto, just as a woodworking exercise, not in an expectation of getting it back to fully-restored condition.


That wreck went for £67! A very brave buyer, I would say. These instruments are nice, but examples in pretty good condition have gone for around £200 to £300 recently (and for much less a bit further ago), so I really can't imagine that this was a good buy.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"I want that Brescian mandolin"!

Ah, so THAT's what it is!  No competition coming from here, my friend. I may be ignorant, but I'm stingy, too.   

How about an iconoclastic solution to your problem, Eugene? Could you, theoretically, appoint a trusted person as your "proxy" (available around the final minutes of the bidding), inform him/her of your absolute maximum bid (obviously, confidentially to the "outer" world), and have him/her chase the instrument of your dreams on your behalf?

This would naturally require great and mutual confidence, and probably violates a thousand-or-so eBay regulations to boot. Not much land was conquered cross-in-hand, though...

As for the Angara... ugh! I'm down and out, when it comes to such projects.

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## Jim Garber

> This would naturally require great and mutual confidence, and probably violates a thousand-or-so eBay regulations to boot. Not much land was conquered cross-in-hand, though...


I would gladly offer to do it but I will be busy in Carlo's master class on Friday. 

I can't imagine that it would violate any eBay rules. I have been to many auctions where a bidder buys a lot for someone else.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Oh, precisely! Live auctions are routinely run by such proxies; big-wigs rarely want to waste their afternoon at Christie's, just to bid on some old Van Gogh for a _measly_ 2-3 million dollars. So they have someone else waste his/her breath on their behalf. 

I just thought, however, that on eBay (with its self-monitoring system of positive/negative feedback) such delegation would go against the grain of the institution. But if not, so much the better!

I do second Jim's offer AND excuse, Eugene; same time, same place, same Aonzoland.

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## etbarbaric

Hi Victor,

Such an arrangement has already been worked out.

Eric

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## mandocaster

For the last purchase I made on ebay I used a service called bidnapper. It waited until 2 seconds before the close of bidding to bid. It worked. I know it doesn't seem quite cricket, but it really isn't any different than attempting to do the same thing yourself.

Bidnapper

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## Jim Garber

There are lots of those sniping softwares around. I have never used one tho I thought of it. I have a friend who set up his own to get in under the 5 second mark. Phew!

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Oooooh, I can see some raised eyebrows at the SEC...  

Of course, as with all system-beating plans, they are soon done one up, with Bidnapper.2 (or perhaps a competitor) offering last *1* second transactions, then fractions thereof, etc. 

Then Dutch auctions (as in Google), then OBO's, what then? I can see Mandolin Futures, (not to mention options thereon) proudly displayed at the CBOE... ah, the market is such fun!

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## Jim Garber

> I can see Mandolin Futures, (not to mention options thereon) proudly displayed at the CBOE... ah, the market is such fun!


Ah, let's see... if I can predict the selling prices of various mandolins... finally, a way to use my talent?

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Sure, Jim: from analysis both fundamental ("Is this instrument _worth_ the ask price?", i.e. discount-modeling) AND technical ("For how much were the latest, similar instruments sold?", i.e. trend-studies) all the way to arbitrage ("Now, wait a minute! You call THAT a Vinaccia?!?")

The stage is set for you, O Mando-Pricing Guru!

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## bratsche

> There are lots of those sniping softwares around. I have never used one tho I thought of it. I have a friend who set up his own to get in under the 5 second mark. Phew!


Only wussies need software. Just get an accurate clock, synchronize it with ebay's, and develop a quick trigger finger. I've clocked many a 2- or 1- second snipe in my day...

bratsche

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## Martin Jonas

If you bid your *actual* maximum bid, then you will only be outbid if someone else is willing to pay more than you are willing. If so, they rightfully win the auction, and good luck to them. As long as everybody is bidding their actual maximums, it doesn't matter when the bids go in. The only point of sniping software is that it can enable you to catch out other bidders who did *not* go in with their actual maximum bid. Those bidders may consider raising their bid if they know that you are willing to pay more than them and by using sniping software, you're not giving them the time to think and to get caught in auction fever. Similarly, if you want to be there right at the death to make sure that nobody is outbidding you, clearly *you* did not bid your actual maximum amount. If your first bid is also your maximum bid, you can happily go out of town and check the outcome when you come back. Why be upset if you're outbid? Somebody else was willing to pay more than you were, or else you would have bid more to start with.

Martin

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## etbarbaric

Thank you Martin. Well put.

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## bratsche

My snipe bid *is* my first, and only, bid. Why tip off "the competition" that I'm even interested beforehand?

bratsche

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## Jim Garber

The psychology if auctions is pitting one's competitive nature against another. That is why, contrary to our own interests, we bid way too high. I have seen folks bid _over_ the retail value of items just so the other guy would not get to them.

My own neurosis is that someone will outbid me by a very small increment, which drives me crazy... "If only I bid another $1 higher..."

Anyway, it is an effective way to sell things esp if you have more than one bidder and occasionally even works on the side of the buyer.

My observation is that an auction is merely a contest to see who is more insane about an item. The winners ends up paying more and therefore proving their insanity.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> My snipe bid *is* my first, and only, bid. Why tip off "the competition" that I'm even interested beforehand?


Oh, absolutely -- if you're around, you might just as well put your one and only bid in just before it ends. I do that as well. What I was saying is that as long as your bid is your maximum, the only disadvantage of bidding earlier (if you're going to be out of town, like Eugene) is that other know you're interested. As I said, if that means they bid more than you, good luck to them.

I usally bid only once. Well, except for that Ceccherini where I ended up raising my bid against my firm resolution. But it was just _so_ purty...

Martin

----------


## Eugene

Well, I'm back, and will bid...but not too much. If you really want it, feel no shame in my toppling.

----------


## Eugene

> My snipe bid *is* my first, and only, bid. Why tip off "the competition" that I'm even interested beforehand?
> 
> bratsche #


Well, I really don't need it. Naive as it sounds, anybody posting here (and probably reading here) is likely a friend for whom I would rather step aside than obstruct their pursuit of this thing. I also think that, at least amongst readers here, my "tipping off" is more likely to steer them clear. Frankly, when such things arise, my communication regarding them is usually via private e-mail...but Bob publicly spilled the beans here! Would you like this thing, Susan?

----------


## Bob A

Sorry.

----------


## Eugene

Please. No need, of course.

----------


## Jim Garber

I wouldn't fear anyone here. We are all pluggin for you. Keep it in the family, i say.

On the other hand, there are those lurkers out there who we don't know...

it's a jungle out there in Bowlbackland.. 

Jim

----------


## bratsche

No, gracias, Eugene! At such time if/when I decide to become one of the Sistern of the Bowl, it will have to be an 8 stringer.

I wasn't speaking of the people on this board/thread as "the competition", so much as those unknown eBay bidders! Most bowlbacks that attract my attention unfortunately get too high by the end for me to seriously consider, anyway, especially not knowing what they'll sound like...

bratsche

----------


## Martin Jonas

Eugene --

I think what bratsche, Jim and I were having was an entirely theoretical discussion on bidding strategy on Ebay -- as far as I can see none of the other posters here has expressed any plans to bid for the Brescian, fascinating though it looks. Go for it, and we'll all be rooting for you!

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

De Meglio

Looks authentic but needs work. If it stays low...

----------


## vkioulaphides

Another de Meglio

Looks impeccable, but costs more (plus it is located in the UK)...

----------


## vkioulaphides

Third one!

----------


## vkioulaphides

All of the above by way of atonement for sins of digression, past, present, and future.  

Somebody, ANYbody, write me up an absolution!

----------


## Eugene

It's not much, but "You are absolved, brother Victor." I would love to pursue any one of these de Meglios, but such activity would wreck my marriage because I just scored that ratty mandolino Bresciano by Bavassano from Napoli.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Thanks, Eugene; I'm sure that an absolution from you counts!

And, hey, congratulations! Not ratty at all, I dare say. And even if so (I'm not qualified to judge), your catcher's talent has extended into _rodentia_!

Enjoy!

----------


## Jim Garber

Hi Eugene:
Why "ratty"? I thought it looked pretty good.

Congratulations!

Jim

----------


## bratsche

I thought it was supposed to be whormy, not ratty (or is it just whormholey?)  

Congrats, Euge-o-rama!

And that head is by far the most violin-like I've ever seen on a mando. What kind of strings can you use with such pegs?

bratsche

----------


## Jim Garber

Could this ebay sale be a result of the Sotheby's bonanza? Is this really an Embergher?

It is also strange that the seller is a member in Italy but the item is supposedly in he US? 

Jim

----------


## Onesound

Forgive my ignorance, but the body on that "Embergher" appears to be asymetrical. Can't say I've ever noticed that before on another instrument. Am I imagining things?
 -Brian

----------


## trebleclef528

I've had a close look at this and I really have my doubts about it being an Embergher. I thought at first it might be one of the "student" mandolins, but then it does not appear to look anything like the ones on "Alex's Embergher site".
Iv'e ask the seller for more pics..and will let you know the outcome.
Regards,
ian

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi all, 

Nothing to do with a Roman Mandolin and certainly nothing with the instruments build by Luigi Embergher and his direct successors.


Best, 

Alex.

----------


## Martin Jonas

And it's the "sehr Weinlesemandoline" translation into German again. Ian and Barbara will no doubt appreciate that line.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Third one!


This is one somewhat later than most (1906), and looks a bit different in decoration from most. It seems in decent enough condition, although one can't necessarily tell from the photos, but £250 is way more than de Meglios have achieved recently (unsurprisingly, there's no bid yet). The one that Ian sold (the "second" one listed by Victor) seemed to me to be more confidence-inspiring and even that one only went for £185.

The one in Texas ("First" one by Victor) doesn't look that bad on the photos, but the overall description would lead me to suspect that it could be a money sink. I have no idea where the seller gets the impression that a restored de Meglio would be worth "thousands".

Amazing how many de Meglios there are out there!

Martin

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Congrats Eugene, with your Ratty Brescian Bavassano! 

It is an interesting instrument. And I am glad it found a home where it will be appreciated. 


Greetings,

Alex.

PS. The Albertini Lombardian ´trainwreck´ I bought for one of my students. And I agree with Jim here: It didn´t look that bad at all!
I´ll keep you up-dated when it arrives.

----------


## Eugene

Thanks for the words, all. I will post report when the instrument is in hand. There is a rather substantial but allegedly repaired crack in the soundboard; it looks a little worse in detail photos than in the photos on the auction page. I suspect the neck with scrolled pegbox might actually be mass-produced stock originally intended for student-grade violin production, Susan: just a guess. The Brescian-type mandolin was built for gut and wound, classical guitar-like strings. I like the look of this piece's maple bowl and clasp. I'm looking forward to seeing it in person.

----------


## raffaele

Hey all...Raffaele Calace on ebay (aus)

----------


## Jim Garber

raffaele:
I assume this Calace is yours?

Jim

----------


## Eugene

> Hey all...Raffaele Calace on ebay (aus)


Absolutely delicious!

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

This one has been on e-Bay before and was also discussed on this topic before.

Nice! except for the sleeve-gard which is clearly a later addition.


Alex

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hello!

A compatriot of mine is trying to sell an unknown mandolin in a relativ good condition without any success. Look here.
Good luck!

----------


## raffaele

Yeah...decided it should go to a worthy home...but Alex...I havn't had it on ebay before....I've just decided to part with it....I can only look at "Raf", not play...so I thought he'd appreciate a better home...

----------


## Jim Garber

> A compatriot of mine is trying to sell an unknown mandolin in a relativ good condition without any success. Look here.


Looks to me like a Puglisi. Two things are prob holding back bidders: 1) BION the yellowishness of the photos and 2) the fact that it is in bulgaria and that payment is more difficult.

BTW it looks very much like the work of the Puglisi shop (or a copy thereof), don't you think, Plami? Have you seen and played this instrument?

Jim

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hello Jim,

You are right about the two things. I haven`t noticed the payment details. It might be Puglisi, but I`m not quite sure. I`m inclined to think, that it`s rather a copy. No, I haven`t seen nor played this particular instrument. But I may try to contact him for details. I don`t know where exactly in Bulgaria the seller is located. If he is settled in Sofia I may ask him for a closer view at the instrument. 

Good luck!

----------


## mandolinoman

Hi, Plamen

It seems like that all the Puglisi mandolins that were built years ago had only butterfly designs on the mandolins. #Maybe there were other designs, besides the butterfly design.

All my best friendly regards,

George

----------


## Jim Garber

George:
 I am not sure if you think it is a Puglisi or that it is not -- it is a little unlcear to me what you are saying. 

I have seen photos of a mandolin with almost this eaxact decoration that was labelled Puglisi. The double butterfly pickguard seems pretty common, tho i have seen other Puglisis with different butterflies and with different ornamentation altogether.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Regarding the Australian Calace, it seems to me the bridge is identical to the (Australian) Calace I bought several months ago. I had been (very mildly) concerned that it was not original to the instrument, but either it is factory original, or the same (Australian) luthier made a replacement.

Given the price, I should have waited.

Does anyone know the function of the two holes in the soundboard?

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hello George and Jim,

Yes, the butterfly in any appearance is very typical for the Puglisi mandolins, but that doesn`t mean it`s necesserily a Puglisi mandolin, because the butterfly decoration could be seen on many other types of mandolins. Besides there are a lot of plain Puglisi mandolins or decorated with flowers, birds, etc. I`ll let you know if I succeed in making a contact with the seller of this particular one. Still don`t believe it`s a Puglisi, although very similar.

Good luck!

----------


## sailaway

so there is now another Australian Calace listed on eBay -- is this similar to bob A's Calace? (with sleeve- guard...) Does anyone know anything about this Calace ? (Since I am missing CMSA in phila. due to the abomination of work , I might as well spend money on a new mandolin! )

----------


## Jim Garber

This one seems to have the same characteristics including pickguard (dual butterflies), headstock shape, outer body binding and rosette inlays as the one below that was sold on ebay Germany in May of this year. That one was labelled a Puglisi, I believe.

Jim

----------


## mandocaster

Well, I got the Willy Hums mandolin delivered today. #All in all in good shape, although the tuners are pretty worn.

Hard to say how it sounds with 30 year old East German strings on it. #The action is a tiny bit high, but usable.

One unexpected surprise was a stencil on the case of the original owner. #

It reads - 
Volkskunstensemble "Fritz Heckert" #Karl Marx Stadt DDR

45 singers, 15 musicians, solo recitation. Probably not the hippest band in the DDR.

An internet search yielded a little info. #In 2003 the band had an anniversary concert. #My German is pretty rusty, though.
Fritz Heckert Concert

----------


## raffaele

I just wanted to say...to anyone who may be interested in finding out anything about my Calace thats currently on ebay....I'm no expert on Mandolins....but if you can point me in the right direction....I'm more than happy to answer any questions that you may have about it...if I possibly can....

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hello Jim,

The one, that you posted is a Puglisi, no doubt! The one, that we discussed is really very similar, even the same. Most probably it`s a Puglisi too. 

Good luck!

Here is another plain Puglisi on ebay.de I think the price is too high for this one. And most probably will meet the same fortune as the previous one. Puglisi Mandolin

----------


## Martin Jonas

This one is allegedly labelled "Fratelli Vinaccia", but looks incongruous to me. #Anybody else? #

This Ferrari is interesting in view of the discussion of Alban Voigt we had a few months ago: This one has the Voigt address on the label, the same as the Ceccherinis. #In fact, I've only just seen one of these Ferraris earlier this week at Hobgoblin's London shop. #Didn't appeal to me and was overpriced, but maybe somebody has experience with these?

As we were talking in the other thread about Embergher clones, here's a no-name one that looks pretty similar to my mother's Miroglio, but with the Embergher-style scroll scratchplate (although it looks rather crudely copied on this one, and probably painted on rather than inlaid).

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Martin:
 I clicked on the Vinaccia one but all that came up is a de Meglio being sold by Ian.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Oops, wrong link, sorry. The right link is here.

Martin

----------


## Eugene

That mass-produced Sicilian/German celluloid butterfly, the rosewood fingerboard...nothing looks like it conceivably coulb be Vinaccia here...except maybe the bridge. My money is on the label either being a forgery or having been pirated from a wrecked Fratelli Vinaccia.

----------


## Jim Garber

That Embergher close looks like a cartoon of an Embergher pickguard. Strange. 

One question I have... those tortoise armguards that these mandolins have (like the one in the Ferrari mandolin) are they actual tortoise-shell?

Jim

----------


## bratsche

Anybody know anything about this one? It's nice-looking...

bratsche

----------


## Martin Jonas

I have no knowledge of it, other than that it looks in good condition and its decorations and scratchplate are typical American. For what it's worth, the level of decoration and the number of ribs suggests it wasn't an entry-level model. The label reads "Thiebes-Stierlin Warranted / Smith Academy, St Louis". A quick web search shows that Thiebes-Stierlin were a St.Louis-based company and the web site of the Missouri Department of Natural Resources says:




> The six-story Thiebes-Stierlin Music Company Building was constructed in 1904 as the third and final retail home of a prominent music firm in St. Louis. Located on the city's old "Music Row" on Olive Street, the firm not only sold sheet music and instruments but also manufactured pianos, mandolins, guitars and strings. Today Thiebes-Stierlin also is remembered for carrying sheet music specifically directed to African-American musicians.


If that's true, they were an actual manufacturer, not just a distributor. That doesn't explain why the name "Smith Academy" is also on the label. That's a St. Louis boys' school (T.S. Eliot went there). Some endorsement deal, perhaps, or maybe it's not actually a manufacturer's label but an inventory label and Thiebes-Stierlin built this mandolin for the school orchestra.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

> This Ferrari is interesting in view of the discussion of Alban Voigt we had a few months ago: This one has the Voigt address on the label, the same as the Ceccherinis.


This has now finished, and I'm baffled. Am I missing something? £166 for the Ferrari, without a bridge, without a nut, with one fret missing, at least some visible warping of the top and who knows what other defects. It seems it's not just two bidders egging each other on -- four different bidders were willing to pay £135 or more for this basket case, when only last month this lovely de Meglio fetched only £30.

I don't know what reputation Ferrari may have, but if people are really interested, the one at Hobgoblin has a bridge, a straight neck and is playable (though not exactly pristine) for about twice the price of this wreck. As Hobgoblin are currently asking for £465 for a very questionable de Meglio, I feel there is a lot of guesswork involved in pricing all around.

Martin

----------


## Bob A

Two interesting prospects at present on ebay.

Vega Lansing Special Is named for a mandolinist of the era, not the town. 

Our own Ian has a nice Stridente
that needs some neck work. It looks to be a worthy project.

The Vega might be a real bargain. I've seen one languishing at $995; I've not played this model, but if they put half the effort into it that they did in their Pettine Special model, it would be a wonderful instrument.

----------


## Martin Jonas

That fake Vinaccia went for £185. Cheap for a Vinaccia, but far too much for what it appears to be.

Here is a very peculiar bowl. No indication of great quality: fittings and decoration are bog-standard interwar or postwar Catania, but the shape is dizzingly narrow. I first thought that the photo might be distorted, but the peghead and bridge are in normal proportions and the scale length looks to be standard 330mm (so presumably not a piccolo).

We've seen this daring set of matching mandobass, mandocello and mandolin before, with a much higher starting bid. Clearly, it remained unsold and is now offered without reserve. They look to be intriguing instruments, but in fairly poor condition.

Finally, here is some poor soul who seems to be under delusions about the value of his bowlback. An unlabelled 10-rib entry level instrument in poor condition (is that a block marker at the 5th fret or a missing chunk of fingerboard?) -- can anybody else see why the seller might have been offered £250?

Martin

----------


## Eugene

> Vega Lansing Special Is named for a mandolinist of the era, not the town.
> 
> The Vega might be a real bargain. I've seen one languishing at $995; I've not played this model, but if they put half the effort into it that they did in their Pettine Special model, it would be a wonderful instrument.


Other than the engraving on the head plate, this piece is identical to an entry level Vega I sold to a Cafe member (Jeff) who then sold it on eBay at ca. $250-300 (I don't recall details). #I've seen a number of "Lansing Specials" with remarkably little consistency of decorative style (this one is the least fancy of the lot). #Rather than being a Pettine-like specific model, I'm suspecting that George Lansing might have pushed Vega on his students and had any such of Vega's regular production equipped with a bit of Lansing personalization.

----------


## Eugene

> Here is a very peculiar bowl. #No indication of great quality: fittings and decoration are bog-standard interwar or postwar Catania, but the shape is dizzingly narrow. #I first thought that the photo might be distorted, but the peghead and bridge are in normal proportions and the scale length looks to be standard 330mm (so presumably not a piccolo).


Nope, not a true piccolo, but this style is sometimes erroneously called piccolo. More properly, they are called "pockey mandolins," comparable to the pochette of the bowed realm. This one actually is pretty typical.

----------


## John Bertotti

I like that vega. So is it wrong to want a second Vega. I can't imagine it would play any better than the one I have it just has a little more ornamentation. Would there be enough sound quality difference to justify two Vegas? John

----------


## etbarbaric

I have a Vega Lansing Special, and while it clearly doesn't rise to the level of the Pettine Special, I don't think I'd count it as equivalent to an entry-level Vega either.

And there's nothing wrong with wanting more than one Vega... really...

Eric

----------


## bratsche

Another nice Vega went for $312 the other day. AND it had been used by the seller to play Bach! I was jealous. The dark top really appealed to me. But then, I have no idea what they sound like, or if it would have had a mellow voice to match its looks. Best not to buy an instrument solely based on looks. Which is always my excuse, and why I'll probably never get up the nerve to join the Order of the Bowl. Sigh.

bratsche

----------


## guitharsis

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone

C'mon bratsche, take a chance . .

The small teardrop ivory pick ordered from you is so nice.
Even at my very basic level of playing it makes a difference in sound.

----------


## bratsche

Thanks for the kind words, Doreen! I really do need to replace my broken scanner and printer before worrying about a bowlback (though it's so easy to sit on eBay and ogle them....) "Business before pleasure" priorities, and all. 

bratsche

----------


## John Bertotti

Anyone catch this one yet. Miroglio (sp) Mandola?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....24&rd=1

I'd bid but I figure someone will out bid me in the end anyway. I'll watch it though just in case it stays reasonable. John

----------


## Martin Jonas

Apart from being a mandola, that Miroglio has a considerable similarity with my mother's Roman-style Miroglio. That's not really a recommendation: it's a very thin-voiced and quiet instrument and I would be sceptical about the quality of their mandolas. The repairs needed sound fairly substantial, and may well be more than itemised in the description: the bridge position looks wrong and may be an indication of more extensive warping of top and/or neck, in which case decent intonation may be impossible. Doesn't sound appealing to me at any price. Incidentally, I strongly suspect that the "pickguard" is no such thing: on my mother's it's a patch of black paint on the top, no actual inlay or stratch protection.

Martin

----------


## guitharsis

Ian's Stridente auction went quite well. That Stridente will require a little bit of work too.

----------


## John Bertotti

I was thinking that Miroglio would be a good practice piece but after seeing the shipping costs I'll rule it out. I'll find a US dog someday no hurries. Thanks Martin. John

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hello Jim,

Here is a picture of a photo album of mine, which I have completely forgotten, when we discussed the Puglisi on ebay. Look at the picture. It looks the same.

Good luck!

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Ian's Stridente auction went quite well. #That Stridente will require a little bit of work too.


Yes, indeed. Prices seem to be going up all around. I think this is also testament to the wisdom of having good detailed descriptions -- Ian seems to be doing very well with his auctions because buyers can have the confidence of knowing precisely what they're getting.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

As I had noted on another thread, there were quite a few bowlbacks at CMSA. I saw three Pandinis (mine, Carlo's and another one played by another Carlo's disciple) a good handful of Calaces, the Embergher liuto and a a good gaggle of Vegas and Washburns.

So, even in the US there is a mild trend.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello,

The Albertini ´trainwreck´ arrived some days ago and not much is wrong with it; some pearl of it´s Mother is missing, a nice rosewood crack at the back and of course some pegs to add. But that´s all. 

Nicely sawn and still dead straight fingerboard and a strong and flat soundtable. All in all a fine and interesting instrument. 


Greetings,

Alex.

----------


## Jim Garber

Excellent, Alex. It sounds like you are pleased with your purchase. Glad to have had a part in making it happen.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Yes Jim very much so! And also happy to have such fine pupils who see the beauty of the various mandolin types and want to play them. 

You played a much bigger part in the Brescian one. For which many thanks go in your direction!
Here a picture of both the Albertinis. 

Greetings,

Alex.

Copyright Photo Alex Timmerman *©*

----------


## Jim Garber

Oops! That's right! I had nothing to do with the Lombard but with the Brescian.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

A seemingly clean Brandt on the bay. Currently $56, 37 hrs to go, reserve not met.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Uhm... so the _Brescian_ Albertini is the four-stringed one? And the other one, (judging from the holes left by the missing pegs) the *12*-string instrument, is a _what_?  

Among such erudite company, I cannot help but lose track of who-is-who and what-is-what...

----------


## Eugene

Yup, the 4-stringer is Brescian, and, nope, the *6*-string instrument is a Lombard mandolin. Violin-like, one peg per string and the pegs go all the way through.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Ah... capito. Thanks, Eugene. And Sr. Albertini _deliberately_, just so as to confuse the likes of me built some of both kinds, eh? *sigh*

They do look lovely, though...

----------


## Eugene

What make and gauge of strings are you using on the Brescian-type mandolin, Alex? How do you like the response?

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Eugene,

For the Mandolino Bresciano I use gut strings for the 2 highest ones and silver (nylon-)silk wound for the 2 lower strings. And that is also what I would recommend you for yours.

The Mandolino Lombardo is strung with gut for the 3 highest ones and, again, silver (nylon-)silk wound for the 3 lower strings. 

If you do not have the possibility to string your mandolin(s) with gut strings, you can also put plain nylon- as an alternative for the plain gut strings.

These strings I order directly from Sebastian Nuñez in Utrecht (Netherlands). 


Greetings,

Alex

PS. In order to know what precise thickness is needed for _your_  Brescian mandolin, it is best to measure the vibrating string-lenght of your instrument and give that and the pitch of the mandolin type to Sebastian (or to your own string man/woman). Most of the time his calculations are pretty acurate. Succes. 

Copyright Photo Alex Timmerman *©*

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Victor,

Carlo Albertini (and his sons) also build the Neapolitan- and Roman mandolin types.

Fun isn´t it?!


Greetings,

Alex

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Originally Posted by  (martinjonas @ Nov. 19 2004, 18:37)
> 
> This Ferrari is interesting in view of the discussion of Alban Voigt we had a few months ago: This one has the Voigt address on the label, the same as the Ceccherinis.
> 
> 
> This has now finished, and I'm baffled. #Am I missing something? #£166 for the Ferrari, without a bridge, without a nut, with one fret missing, at least some visible warping of the top and who knows what other defects.


As seems to be the case quite often, this (relatively) high-rolling auction has flooded other Ferraris onto the market:
this one looks in decent shape. The decoration isn't much to my liking, but the buyer gets several tortoiseshell plectrums with it, which on their own are quite valuable these days. I note that the label on this one does _not_ refer to Alban Voigt. Here is another Ferrari, much more basic and in much worse condition (no tuners and no bridge, two splits to bowl).

Martin

----------


## Eugene

I do like the satinwood binding on the first. However, I'm not much for scrolled pearl lozenges set in black mastic.

----------


## Eugene

Here is a nice looking Lyon & healy-made Ditson. The seller ackowledges "two hair line cracks in the top;" one might be hairline, but the other is pretty evident and might need some attention. Still, top cracks are rarely a big issue.

----------


## bratsche

Alex -

What are those interesting, um, _things_ at the tops of those headstocks called? They must have a name, but I have never seen or heard it. 

Every time I see those, I think they need either a tiny miniature painting or a mirror mounted on them. 

Maybe even a smiley-face!   

bratsche

----------


## Jim Garber

> What are those interesting, um, _things_ at the tops of those headstocks called? #They must have a name, but I have never seen or heard it.


Not sure of the technical name for those, but it is a typical "crookneck" design somewhat releated to the squash of the same name. High-end Emberghers mandolins have them as well as more modern copies like Pandinis. I always thought that a technically minded person could put a small television set or computer monitor into it.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

> What are those interesting, um, _things_ at the tops of those headstocks called? #They must have a name, but I have never seen or heard it.


Finial. I tend to refer to the whole of the thing as a sickle-shaped pegbox with a partial scroll terminating in a square finial. Stradivari and Dan Larson's earlier models featured a shield-shaped finial:

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks, Eugene, for the correct term. I will never remember it, but that is why I am glad that you are around.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

Anytime.

----------


## berkeleymando

Hi folks, I just noticed that Brian Dean (Montreal luthier) just posted some interesting pictures of a wild looking bowlback he made on his web site:


http://www.bfolk.com/jen20gallery/FrameSet.htm

I'd be curious to hear thoughts that people have about this design.

----------


## Jim Garber

Brian actually consulted with us at this thread

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Interesting and presumably well-made instrument; needs a bridge, but looks like it might be worth the effort. Here  it is; not familiar with the maker, Montaldi.

And here's a nice Maurer - a lower-end model, but pretty birdseye maple.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Interesting and presumably well-made instrument; needs a bridge, but looks like it might be worth the effort. Here  it is; not familiar with the maker, Montaldi.


Here is another Giovanni Montaldi mandolin that appeared on eBay in janurary of this year. This one is also rosewood bowled but not fluted with a different headstock. The sellker stated that it was from the 1920s and that it has a Alban Voight label.

Marco is the high bidder of the one currently on eBay. I think the fluted back will attract interest. I would say £500-600 for the final bid.

I just noticed that the dollar to GBP ration is close to 2:1 now. Makes it easier to figure out prices for me.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

> Hi folks, I just noticed that Brian Dean (Montreal luthier) just posted some interesting pictures of a wild looking bowlback he made on his web site:
> 
> 
> http://www.bfolk.com/jen20gallery/FrameSet.htm
> 
> I'd be curious to hear thoughts that people have about this design.


Looks like an oud.

----------


## Jim Garber

About Brian's bowlback (from his homepage):



> Lords, and Ladies, ahem. Not a reproduction, straight from the imagination, a cross between a lute, a mandolin, and a Court Jester's trousers. A beautiful tone, harp-like, voluminous, and sweet, you can hear her played at the Renaissance Fair in California (that's in the New World, mind you), should you fortuitously stumble upon the fair Jennifer a-strumming.


He was commisioned to make something look Renaissance-like, not to make an authentic historical repro. I think visually he achieved that and it will work well for thos attending those faires. I emailed him on how it sounds etc. Perhaps he will chime in here.

I like the way it looks (with the exception of what looks like a cartoon bunny on one of the soundholes. I am not sure if I would want one of these, prob lean more to the classic bowlbacks of the golden era.

BTW it must be real fun to tune with metal strings and violin pegs. Hmmm... he is partway to making a mandolino...

Jim

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## Jim Garber

This mandola seems to be a German-made Embergher style. It is hard to tell if it is a tenor mandola or for octave tuning. it is also hard to see if the fretboard is radiussed or not. I do like its simplicity. I am not in the market tho.

"Goldklang" is stamped on the soundboard. Looks like one that Ian may know about?

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

The German text says "much much bigger than a mandolin, as big as a concert guitar". I'd say that points to something larger than a mandola, maybe a mandocello. The seller also says that he inherited it from his father, who in turn inherited it from his great-grandfather (!). Sounds a bit too many generations to me to be consistent with the looks of the instrument, which points towards 1910s or 1920s, I'd say. Mind you, the seller's father also supposedly said it's to be tuned CDAG, which seems rather muddled.

"Goldklang" means "golden tone", and is one of those phrases that appear pretty widely on German instruments ("Edelklang" and "Wohlklang" being others). I'm not so sure that they are actually brand names; they're certainly not indications of superior quality. Rather the opposite, in fact. Still, it's a nice maple bowl.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

I would second Martin's intelligent guess of mandocello.

As for the lutoid... the instrument that comes to mind is the folk-lute we call "Polítiko" in Greece; no, NOT as in _politics_ but as in "Constantinopolitan". It is the one developed in pre-revolutionary Constantinople, present-day Istanbul, as a crossbreed between the oud and the numerous bass folk-lutes that evolved in the Greek islands that were under Venetian rule a most interesting cross-pollenization! The Turks call it "lavta"; such instruments, still made in Istanbul today, do come up on eBay from time to time.

The "laoúto polítiko" is tuned to (A)A-dd-aa-d'd' (The parenthesis indicates that it is, more often than not, a *7*-string instrument. Its "harmonic bias" is clearly D-keyed, with the upper three courses tuned to the familiar _bozuk düzeni_, the Venetian _quintaquarta_ DAD, with an additional, dominant drone in the bottom, single- or double-strung.

Lovely instrument, sans fauna. I wish I could tell the pudding's flavor from afar.

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## labraid

Howdy Jim, and all. The offer to chime in, absolutely I'll take it. For the visual appearance, you're right it was to go for something one might imagine when one thinks of the Renaissance, and for that I am very happy with the finished product. The sound, the tone, is intriguing, it's quite like a cross between an archtop mandolin, presumably because of the non-flat back, and one of my flat-top mandolins.The top is braced with an induced arch mostly in my usual fashion with a few slight modifications which I came about through a bit of research and trial. It plays and sounds equally well quietly and loudly, and volume is not lacking in any sense. The bass, midtones, and trebles are well balanced and ring clear.. I can say without a doubt that it is one of the finest sounding instruments I have made to date, though does not sound much at all, in my view, like a "traditional" bowlback. Here's a quick quip from the mando herself (recorded on the free microphone that comes with the computer, so you can trust it's better in real life, best if you have good speakers to listen on)[edit, fixed link]: http://www.bfolk.com/cafe/farewellbowlback.mp3
And as for the rabbit, I was a bit apprehensive about the idea at first, but after we shrunk it down to this size (it was going to be much bigger at first) it was less intrusive on the whole.. Her boyfriend drew that for her, she loves it and absolutely wanted it here on the mandolin. I'm happy since she's happy, of course.
I have to tune a few things before I send her off, the bridge needs a trimming down to get the action right, and a bit of nut work as well, and then it will play as easily and fast as any other finely tuned machine... 
As for tuning those strings (light gauge afterall, Jim), well it wasn't easy by any means until I made a wood wrench to give me some leverage on those pegs. Now it's pretty simple and quick to do. Stays in tune very nicely also.

That's all for now, you guys take care.

Brian

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## Martin Jonas

What a nice tone, very intriguing! You're right, it's not much like a bowlback, more like an oval-hole archtop with an additional resonator-like quality. Seems to have great sustain, and more low range than most bowlbacks. I'd love to give this one a go!

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

Hmm... can't get those links to work; "URL not found on this server"... obviously, Martin did manage to listen to the samples. Oh, well...

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Vega "Lansing" sold for $436, certainly more than I would have paid for it. Then again, there IS that _trend_ we have discussed on this thread.  

While I would certainly consider a life surrounded by mandolins, in various states of (dis)repair _pleasant_, I must admit I don't see the business in it. Messrs Mazzaccara, Onorati, et alii, will have to excuse me for failing to comprehend their raison d'etre.

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## Martin Jonas

Brian got his link a bit muddled up and as a result, it won't work by just clicking on it. Try this link instead.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Vega "Lansing" sold for $436, certainly more than I would have paid for it.


There is a Lansing at Lark Street Music for $995 that has been there for quite some time. I don't recall seeing it while I was there last year. I have to make another trip.

Jim

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## labraid

Here's a better demonstration of the sound, some chords and a bit of (imperfect) improv: http://www.bfolk.com/jen20gallery/jen20demo.mp3

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Bratche,

This particular head is called a ´square finial´ and yes you are right; a little ornament is nice at that place. 
In fact often early Mandolinos do carry artistic expressions like a carved face or a flower in the ivory (or bone) there. 


Greetings,

Alex

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Two more Puglisi mandolins with the common butterfly pattern. Here and here.


Good luck!

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## onthefiddle

Was anyone else watching the end of the Montaldi auction? I can't really say that this one slipped through my fingers - more leaped! 
Jim - you were a little out this time, try trebling your estimate to 1605 Pounds! It suddenly shot up from 310 Pounds in the last 20 seconds of the auction. 
I'd imagine there's one happy seller out there!
Jon

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## Jim Garber

Yikes! I am losing my touch. Perhaps there is something about this maker that we don't know. Any clues? Alex?

I suppose any well-made Italian mandolin with fluting will go for a decent amount, but that seems like closer to a big three price.

Jim

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## Bob A

Well, it's not a bowlback, but it's still interesting, and lord knows it has enough strings: at Bernunzio's.

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## guitharsis

Bob -

I'm actually going to Bernunzio's next week to have Julie take a look at my Stridente and give me an appraisal. #I'll be down on East Avenue anyway to attend a meeting of the Italian Women's Civic Club at the Century Club, and figured it would be a good time to do both.

Maybe I'll get a chance to take a look at some of the other mandolins in Bernunzio's inventory. #Mine is the only bowlback I've ever seen so far. #My teacher told me today that it was in better condition and plays louder than any of the bowlbacks he's seen. #We'll see what Julie thinks.

Edit: Stopped by Bernunzio's today because I was out that way. John looked over my mandolin and said he would give me an opinion rather that a written appraisal and that his opinion wouldn't cost me anything. That was so nice of him. He said that he thought the Stridente was well worth the price paid. He also said that the neck was nice and straight (ebony or ebonized?) that the set-up was good and that the mandolin was in very nice condition overall. Good to hear from an expert.

I did get to see and hear him play some of the other bowlback mandolins. He has some very nice ones there. He also played some of the A style vintage Gibson's which sounded very good. He has several of them in stock.

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## Jim Garber

Bob:
That is some sort of bandurria. After some surfing it could be a variant of a Colombian bandola which has either 12 or 14 strings. 

It is very interesting that it has an O. Pagani label and it looks almost American in manufacture. Perhaps a Colombian came into the store on Bleecker (which was a music store and also published thier own sheet music, mostly accordion and mandolin and guitar, as far as I know) and ordered such an instrument. I imagine that Pagani would commission one of the mandolin makers in Greenwich Village to make this instrument.

Jim

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## morgan

There's Weymann Keystone State bowlback on e-bay this week - basic and un-ornamented. The link is  

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....64&rd=1 

Weymann mandolutes seem to enjoy a decent reputation, but I haven't seen any discussion of their bowlbacks. Any comments on these?

The same vendor is also selling a nice-looking Mayflower.

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## trebleclef528

Quote:Was anyone else watching the end of the Montaldi auction? I can't really say that this one slipped through my fingers - more leaped! 
Jim - you were a little out this time, try trebling your estimate to 1605 Pounds! It suddenly shot up from 310 Pounds in the last 20 seconds of the auction. 
I'd imagine there's one happy seller out there!

Not such a happy seller.....the bid was a scam. The bidder had just registered and had made loopy purchases on all sorts of things for ££££££$$$$$$ lots....very sick person.
Still the second highest bidder looked genuine.
Regards,
ian

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## onthefiddle

Yes, I see that they're no longer a registered user, with a feedback rating of minus 4, though I hardly think that would have been much of a deterent.
Still, the second bidder's amount wasn't much less - so if that bid was genuine then the seller has good reason to feel pretty chuffed! 
When I posted that, I was still quite shocked from attempting to bid just a little higher, and then being told that my bid wasn't valid because it was under £1605! I got back to the auction just as it ended.
I would imagine the second highest bidder hadn't been expecting to go up to their maximum bid.
P.S. Thanks for the warning about the recent Gibson scam.

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## onthefiddle

I just searched for the auctions that the highbidder had won.
There are six pages of them, the highest bid being of over £90,000 on a RangeRover.

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## Martin Jonas

This is becoming a regular Ebay menace: the same thing happened to me when I bought the Ceccherini last month. I intended to go to £330, found myself outbid by a no-feedback bidder and reluctantly raised it to £400. No go. A third bidder went to £480, but still didn't get it. The high bidder then turned out to be a prank, possibly the same guy as in the Montaldi auction, and his then-Ebay-identity was kicked off (but then Ebay identities are disposable).

In my instance, the story had a happy end, at least for me, as the second-highest bidder wasn't interested anymore, and I got the Ceccherini for my highest bid.  However, these instances leave a bad taste for everybody, and the person who is most affected is the highest "real" bidder: without the prank bid, his maximum would never have been exposed and he would have won the auction at the price for the _third_ highest bid (plus one bidding increment). In this instance, that's £300.

Martin

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## trebleclef528

Interesting Mandolin on Ebay Italy Very Fancy

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## Jim Garber

> Interesting Mandolin on Ebay Italy Very Fancy


I love the term "madreperla". Strange he says he ships worldwide then at the bottom says only Italy.

Any clue what this is, Ian?

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here's a somewhat similar one from my files. It looks like the pickguard is very similarly shaped. I think this was also on eBay about 1 year ago but i have no further info on this one either.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Embergher? I doubt it. Strange listing. Says the instrument is in the US but the seller is in Italy. 

Jim

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## Bob A

OK, it's not a bowlback. OK, it's not even a mandolin.

But it is a record autographed by Pettine inscribed to Howard Frye. 

Someone here ought to be interested in this.

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## Martin Jonas

> Embergher? #I doubt it. Strange listing. Says the instrument is in the US but the seller is in Italy.


I think that's the same instrument as this which we discussed in this thread in July. The earlier photos aren't around anymore, but the high bidder on the previous auction is the seller on the current auction. As he/she has a feedback of 1, and thus is clearly not a frequent Ebayer, it's fairly unlikely that this is a coincidence. Looks to me as if Marco and Carotina came to an off-Ebay deal and Carotina has now finally realised that this wasn't the real deal after all.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Yes, Martin, we are starting to see a lot of recycling. The seller even used Marco's pictures but conveniently left off the one with the label. Definitely the same bogus one.

Jim

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## John Bertotti

Here are two instruments that look interesting. Domenico Salvadori
and a Massimo Marcato
Both I think claim to be from Napoli. Have fun John 


I scanned along a little further and found a Ferrari mandolin. Man I bet that is a fast player.   John

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## Jim Garber

That Salvadori looks to be a prime candidate for a serious neck reset. Otherwise looks like a decent instrument.

Jim

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## John Bertotti

I was looking at all the pics enlarged and to me it looks like a bowl crack and the top separating along one side. They do look interesting as projects though. to bad I can't bid right now. John

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## vkioulaphides

Massimo Marcato's mandolins aren't bad at all, at least when combined (in mando-orchestras, that is) with those of Molto Legato for the sake of contrast, of course! #

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## jasona

No comments on the R. Calace in the classifieds?

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## Jim Garber

> No comments on the R. Calace in the classifieds?


I assume you are talking about ad # 12266?

A few of us were offered that one a few months ago at that price. A little tool rich for my blood, tho I wish the seller had brought it to CMSA to try, at least.

Jim

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## Bob A

Odd Calace, that one. Peghead looks vey un-Calace; oddly, the label seems t indicate it was made by the Vinaccia branch of the family.

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## jasona

> I assume you are talking about ad # 12266?


Yes, correct sorry.

It is interesting to learn of the oddness Bob.

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## Jim Garber

I have a low bid (currently outbid) on this Embergher orchestra model 1. I am sure it will go way higher than I would even consider tho it looks like it has some issues. Aside from the back crack it is hard to tell if the neck needs resetting. It also looks like the bridge is possibly not original.

Nevertheless it is an Embergher, or certainly resembles one. 

BTW how do these differ in tone from the soloist models. I imagine that these are mellower in general?

Thanks again, Alex, for your wonderful Embergher site!

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

Thanks Jim, it is indeed a true Embergher mandolin of the model you described. 
The only thing not original is the bridge. 
And apart from some rib fractures (and what looks like a burning accident), it seems OK. 

As for the sound of the orchestra (and student) models I would say that they have in all aspects already everything the higher (sculpted back) mandolins have: sustain and clarity on all strings and ranges. 

The differences in sound between these and the soloist models are not easy to explain in words, but I will give it a try here: in my opinion the sound differs from the soloist models because the latter instruments have a more distinguished, a more sophisticated and noble sound. Especially in the lower range of the instrument. But to catch this in words.... #

And there are really wonderful sounding student- #and orchestra models that could easily compete with almost every other maker´s high end models (sorry, got carried away in my enthousiasm  )


It is perhaps interesting to know that in the coming months I hope to put some sound samples of the various Embergher instruments/models at Recordings page of the Embergher.com Website to listen to. 


Best and good luck with your bidding Jim,

Alex

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## onthefiddle

Less interesting, though certainly having it's own merits, is this, presumably American, higher end instrument - does anyone have an idea of what it might be?
It has a crack in the front - still not as bad as the cracks across the grain on the Embergher, that looks like it's had a nasty bash. 
Unfortunately it also appears that someone has glued the Embergher badly with copious quantities of superglue (crazyglue on the other side of the Atlantic) or Epoxy. There's lot's of work for a luthier there - not that it's not worth it of course

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## Martin Jonas

Another relabelled de Meglio on Ebay UK. This one is labelled "Romito & Carbone", but looks identical to the standard de Meglio model, and also to my "Carlo Rinaldi" labelled one. As before, it's difficult to say with certainty whether these relabelled ones came out of the de Meglio workshop and were labelled up by wholesalers/distributors, or whether they were imitations. Either way, this one looks in decent enough condition from the few photos that there are, but it's peculiar that there is no photo showing the entire instrument from the front.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

For those of Northern Italian tastes: Monzino

I am not necessarily endorsing or recommending this, as I am totally, completely, and unapologetically rank ignorant, when it comes to these critters. All I know is that Sr. Monzino has "come under the tongue in good repute" more than once.

Also, the seller seems to confuse his _own_ inability to play this instrument hardly reprehensible and the _instrument's_ alleged state of "not being playable". So, this may be a cheap entry into the genre. 

This, or the owner is sly as a fox and is trying to outfox the likes of us...

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## etbarbaric

OK... I'll bite. I've bid on the Monzino Lombardian. It seems typical of the form, though it will clearly need some restoration. My wife's family ancestory sports the name "Monzingo" (they think its French-derived). I harbor the fantasy that the name is really a modification on Monzino... Maybe with that connection I can get the thing in the door without fear of retribution... :-)

Eric

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## vkioulaphides

Good luck, Eric! 

Sure, Monzingo, Monzino... what the heck? Besides, you have a fine example to go by, as this seller offers a plethora of variants, e.g. M*a*lano, Mi*ll*ano, and what have you, for the familiar metropolis, midway between Rome's possessions in _Italia_ and those in _Germania_, hence *Medio*lanum, present-day M-i-l-a-n-o, "middle of the road".

Tell us how this goes.

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## Jim Garber

Here is another example from the same workshop. I think that Carlo M had this one some time ago. I like the sausage-shaped soundhole and pickguard.

Jim

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## RSW

Eric, go for it! I have one and they are well made and the sound, though guitar like, is a pleasant change from his wire strung cousin from Naples. You can cheat and use it for the Hoffmann quartets when playing with modern string players.

Richard

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## etbarbaric

Thanks for the encouragement Richard. I thought I remembered you having a Monzino. I have an Albertini that I had restored (at great expense), and I like it quite well. I agree that Hoffmann works quite well on these instruments. 

Does your Monzino have a scratch-plate? This one, interestingly, does not.

Best,

Eric

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## RSW

Eric, I can't upload to web storage site so I'll send you some photos privately of my Monzino.... maybe you can post them here for the others. Cheers, Richard

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## etbarbaric

Here is a composite of Richard's Monzino Lombardian mandolin (as he requested). Thanks for sharing the photos Richard, it is indeed lovely.

Best,

Eric

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## vkioulaphides

Nice!

And (please forgive the recalcitrant), these are the ones tuned to G-B-E-A-D-G?

Meanwhile, said eBay item is climbing relentlessly... I _meant_ well.

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## etbarbaric

Hi Victor,

Yes, these are tuned just like a 6-course mandolino. In fact, they *are* six-course mandolinos, just with single, rather than doubled courses. 

This was the final incarnation of the mandolino, surviving well into the last century. In fact, you can see them being played right along side the Neapolitan instruments of the day (there are three or four in the the jacket photo on Paul Sparks' "The Classical Mandolin", (the Reale circolo mandolinisti, Regina Margherita, Florence 1892)).

And yes... someone else seems interested in this particular instrument in addition to myself. I hate when that happens... :-).

Best,

Eric

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## Martin Jonas

Here is a curiosity. I've heard some mention in the forum of aluminium bowls but hadn't seen one before. This one here, said to be from Egypt, is obviously a wreck, but I'd be curious whether anybody had any experience with a playable aluminium bowl. If it stays unsold, maybe someone wants to make an offer for the bridge on its own, which looks a standard Neapolitan-style one.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

As to aluminium (or as we over here say, aluminum, for some reason) bowls, I had a Merrill bowlback quite a few years back. I sold it way before I was into bowlbacks. They do not sound so bad. A little ringy as you may imagine.

I have never seen an Italian one in the DeMeglio style and from Egypt. no less.

Hard to tell what the bridge is or whether it would be worth it just for the bridge.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Oh, I recall a wealthy dilettante who was proudly name-dropping, going through all her fellow-_alumini_ from an Ivy League institution.  

I'd stick to wood.

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## jasona

_*groans*_

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## Bob A

I've seen a Merrill aluminium bowlback, years ago. I'd love to get one in decent shape. By all reports, they sound better than you'd imagine.

Shouldn't it be fellow-alumina? (Feminine)

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## vkioulaphides

Oh, I meant plural masculine/collective. But, as the effect was more one of tin-headedness, _cassitera_ may have been the appropriate, metallic reference.  

I'd still stick to _dulce lignum_ for mandolins, though.

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## Bob A

My mistake - aluminae would be plural. I must be a bit disordered from eating crassiteria cooking.

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## Martin Jonas

A link to another aluminium bowl has just been posted on the general forum. This one looks stunning: all aluminium, including top and neck. I can't see how this works -- presumably the top doesn't do much oscilliating and there seems to be no resonator to produce a tone. At least this construction should eliminate most structural issues: an aluminium neck joint may well fail completely, but probably won't need a reset.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

The Merrill I had has a spruce canted top and sounded pretty decent. That Hutchins is prob more of a novelty tho the back and top are nicely engraved.

Here is another Hutchins that appeared on ebay in November of 2003.

Jim

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## Plamen Ivanov

Hello,

Here is an interesting Puglisi. Looks like master model with fingerboard extension, armrest, mother of pearl bars and pickguard frayed of picking.

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## Jim Garber

Plami:
Is that one for sale or from this guy's collection? It looks nice but certainly needs some work.

There is another of this mandolin photo here.

Jim

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## Plamen Ivanov

Everything, that I know about this mandolin is, what I found on the site itself. The mandolin belonged to Robert Normann`s father. May be if I try to contact the Robert Normann society I could find out more about this Puglisi`s fortune.

I just sent them a question.

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## onthefiddle

Here is another instrument requiring a lot of professional restoration, what do you think about the label - is it genuine?

----------


## vkioulaphides

Part of the answer is another question: Are you (i.e. the potential buyer) a luthier _yourself_? The point being that the cost of this restoration would be ENORMOUS! So, even if the credentials of the instrument are OK, *and* if you acquire it for, say, $100, plan on 10-15 times over that for a full restoration, IF such restoration is possible at all.

----------


## onthefiddle

This mandolin could definitely be restored - you would be amazed at what can be done if the instrument is worth it! 
You are right about it being costly of course.
Unfortunately the seller won't ship outside the USA - so I can't pursue it.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Oh, well... Of course, yes, it _can_ be restored; as you say correctly, the crucial issue is authenticity: a Strad in the form of toothpicks is still a Strad, and someone out there will undertake to restore it.

You could take the determinist or the stoic approach to this:  

If you are assured of authenticity, and wish to acquire this instrument, I am sure that a US-based "proxy" could procure this on your behalf, on terms mutually agreed upon by yourself and said proxy.

If not, just shrug and walk away. It was sour grapes, anyhow... (instrument was too beat up, labor costs would have been staggering, seller only shipped within the U.S., etc. etc.)

----------


## onthefiddle

> a Strad in the form of toothpicks is still a Strad, and someone out there will undertake to restore it.


You are so right! Of course the big question that follows is - is it still a Strad after the restoration?
I know of one restored Strad that has less than several toothpicks worth of original wood in the back, front and ribs - the varnish is original though!
Thankfully this instrument isn't that bad!
Personally I'm unsure of it's authenticity, and plan to take your stoic approach

----------


## vkioulaphides

A true philosophical exercise, indeed. 

The Skeptic: "How can you be sure it is what the label _claims_ it is?"
The Epicurean: "Oh, but the _pleasure_ of playing a Vinaccia!"
The Stoic: "I have enough mandolins, and _need_ no more."

I stop short of the Neoplatonists#both on mando-matters and in general.

----------


## Jim Garber

I found a similar era 1895 with a similar pickguard shape. (see below). It is possible that this one is genuine. (I await the experts' opinions.)

The question I would have is: is the top restorable? It looks like it was crushed some years ago and warped since then. I would think that it would take considerable work to make it a playable instrument and still use the original top.

Assuming it is genuine, what is it worth with a replaced top? It looks to be a middling mandolin to begin with, but if it were a real Vinaccia it would be worth something. 

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Possibly more to the point, you might want to notice that the label does _not_ say "Fratelli Vinaccia"; according to the seller it says "Alle Vinaccia". Looking at the label, it's too fuzzi to make out the smaller-type letters, but I'd say it actually says "A(lli) Vinaccia" or "A(llo) Vinaccia", the letters "lli" or "llo" being in superscript. This would presumably be short for "Allievi(o) di Vinaccia", or "pupil(s) of Vinaccia". There were a number of shops run by former apprentices of the Vinaccia shop, building instruments in the same style. Some of these, such as Angara & d'Isanto, have a decent reputation in their own right. Nevertheless, they trade at a small fraction of a genuine Vinaccia.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Martin:
Yes, there are quite a few "allieve" and in fact the Angara & d'Isantos do have a very similar pickguard. You may have something there.

then again, it could be a good challenge for a budding luthier... at the right price.

Jim

----------


## onthefiddle

If it's a Vinaccia, then it's certainly restorable by a professional.
A deformed soundboard can be restored to it's original form (not such an unusual restoration in the Violin world), cracks are of course very commonly (and often invisibly) repaired.
I would urge any amateur considering it as a project to think very carefully though.
I've seen many fine instruments ruined by amateurs with a misconception of restoration. The most common, or at least glaring, practice is that of sanding off the "old" varnish. A professional will never remove the original varnish if at all avoidable (and off hand I can't think of a reason why it should be necessary). Revarnishing halves the value of the instrument, and of course removes much of it's character.
All restoration techniques used should be reversible e.g. no artificial glues should be used, only hide glue and certainly not wood filler. If cracks can't be closed (and if there is no wood missing then they normally can be, with the correct technique) then new wood has to be very carefully and precisely fitted to match. There is a wide range of difficulties in crack repairs, as general rule though - the older the crack the more difficult the repair will be. The cracks on this instrument look fairly old.
Some poor restoration techniques can actually cause even greater damage a little further on in time - wood is not a static material, and cannot be forced into a static state.
If anyone would like to investigate the subject of instrument restoration further then the best book on the subject is "Violin Restoration - A Manual For Violin Makers" by Hans Weisshaar and Margarett Shipman. It is very expensive though, so I'd see if you can obtain a copy through your public library. 
This is an area of expertise that takes years of training, so please don't practice on any instrument of any degree of merit - there are lots of old battered Skylarks out there, and many can be had for nothing!

Jon

----------


## Jim Garber

> A deformed soundboard can be restored to it's original form (not such an unusual restoration in the Violin world), cracks are of course very commonly (and often invisibly) repaired.


Jon:
I am not sure if you are a professional violin-maker... please excuse my presumptions as a non-restorer of instruments...

I would think that a violin-top is somewhat different than a mandolin top. I am not sure of the technique in violin restoration but I would imagine that it would have more akin to the repair of archtop mandolins, possible with the use of molds and steaming etc. 

There is a thread on Flattop mandos - distorted top. It is a vintage Martin and the top is not in quite as bad shape as the "Vinaccia" under discussion.

Also, it might be very well worthwhile to put thousands of dollars into a vintage violin worth millions, whereas hardly worth it for an instrument worth #1000-3000 in _good_ condtion and even less in its current state.

Of course, I agree with you that this is no job for a run-of-the-mill amateur restorer.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> Yes, there are quite a few "allieve" and in fact the Angara & d'Isantos do have a very similar pickguard.


Regarding that pesky last letter in "alliev...", I may have been sexist in my assumption that it wasn't "allieve": in my poor understanding of Italian this would be a group of two or more pupils of Vinaccia, all of them female. Not impossible, of course, but probably unlikely in the late 19th century.

Which brings us back to the aluminae...

Martin

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## onthefiddle

Hi Jim!
Many violin restoration techniques are directly applicable to mandolins. 
The problems and materials are very similair, though of course the construction is different in some points. Both instruments come from the same tradition of luthiery though, indeed many of the Neapolitan makers also made violins.
The ethics of restoration of course apply to any type of instrument, of any degree of merit.
One point I forgot that I meant to add is that if anyone is interested in learning more about restoration then they could also try approaching a good local maker and restorer - most violin makers are happy to offer advice, as long as you are considerate of their time - we do have to get on with the slow, careful process of restoring your instruments!
 
Regarding this instrument - it would only be worth a full restoration if it does turn out to be a very high end mandolin - something that is looking less likely. However there are also degrees of restoration, in other words this instrument could be made playable and stable for much less than thousands, without compromising it's integrity or any future work - it wouldn't realise it's full value without a full restoration of course.
I'm afraid I couldn't get that url to work, but I'll try and track down the thread later.

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## Jim Garber

> I'm afraid I couldn't get that url to work, but I'll try and track down the thread later.


I fixed that link above.

I thoroughly agree with you that it would be worth it to restore this if it were a Vinaccia tho I wonder about the final worth of the restoration andthe value of the instrument after it was done. Of course,m being a vintage junky i see many of these as poor mute orphans wanted to be adopted and brought back with their full singing voice. I would hope that someone would take on this if it were worth it.

Know eBay, I am sure that it will sell to someone. At the moment I have quite a few orphans who need assistance to add to the lot.

Jim

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## Bob A

There's no unhappier manolinist than one with a previously fine instrument which is now a basket case. All options are unpleasant, and time is a factor which only increases suffering.

If said mandolinist is in the distressing position possessing an ill bowlback, the situation becomes considerably more desperate: there are few luthiers on the N. Amer. continent competent to effect major repairs, given the instrument's current level of popularity.

As one who, like Jim, plays white knight to a varied assemblage of mandos in distress, I am come to the opinion that, while it is a worthy endeavor, it does not profit one to get carried away. I have several old worthwhile bowlbacks that need work, ranging from a simple setup thru refret, bridgework, rib separations, to flat-out total restoration, and each one is a problem in terms of getting the work done competently and in a timely, affordable manner. It is only thru massive overaccumulation of instruments that I have been able to deal with the attendant frustrations, and still end up with a handful that are good to go. I tend to put off setup and refret work since it is perhaps wasteful of the time of a skilled luthier who could be undertaking major restorations instead; but the big jobs tend to linger for years.

I'm maxed out on major resto projects, and would love to get three or four instruments that have relatively minor issues fixed up. I'm even starting to wonder if it might not be a good idea to ship them overseas, to a more bowlback-cognisant part of the world, to see if I could get the whole batch put right in less than a year.

Pleasures, wants, needs indeed. For every pleasure there is a corresponding pain. Bob's Law. The universe seeks balance, but leaves it in the hands of the unbalanced to do the deed.

----------


## onthefiddle

Hi Bob and Jim,
I have to say I share your feelings about rescuing orphaned instruments! 
I can even sympathise with the wait to get them restored - my time is solidly booked for about the next six months, so it can be pretty hard to find the time to work on my own stuff! Finding time to practice is tricky sometimes as well. The cost isn't a concern anyway!
There is a lot of satisfaction in bringing a nice old instrument back to health and reviving it's voice again, especially if you're working on an instrument for a player who is really interested and cares about it.
In terms of maintaining the good health of your instruments Bob - you're right to prioritise, and setup is less important in terms of their long term health (though , as we all know - a poor setup can damage a delicate instrument). It is very important for playability and sound, so I trust that you have at least one nice instrument well set up!
Make sure you keep any stockpiled instruments well - away from extremes of humidity or temperature etc... - but I'm sure you know that.  
Anyway - it's getting into the early hours here - and I have lots to do tomorrow!
I checked your thread Jim. There is some sound advice there - it's just a matter of sorting the wheat from the chaff (as is normal on the net), but the thread starter seemed to be generally listening to the right voices. I'll add my penny's worth tomorrow.
Good night!
Jon

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## Jim Garber

Here's an interesting mandolira imported by Tipaldi Bros, NY, but not made by Calace. The design is much different with the back looking like a std bowlback with arms.

Here is a similar one from last fall on eBay. Outrageous soundholes.

Jim

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## Plamen Ivanov

Hello,

I got the answer concerning the Puglisi mandolin, that used to belong to Robert Normann`s father. It was Mr. Kjetil Soerensen, who was so kind to provide more information on this mandolin. Here is what he wrote to me:

Dear Mr. Plamen Ivanov.

First of all, we want to thank you for a very nice email. Nice to hear from musicians that find the life of Robert Normann and his family interesting.

Second, the mandolin Robert Normann's father used to play on is in the Normann familys possession. It is in a private collection and only on display during jazz festivals and fairs. Therefore I am sorry to say, that it is not for sale.


Yours sincerely
Kjetil Sørensen
Webmaster

Normann Records AS
Robert Normanns Venner


If you missed the previous posting of the links to Robert Normann`s father Puglisi here they are again:
Puglisi 1
Puglisi 2

Source: Robert Normann`s website

Good luck!

----------


## Jim Garber

Plami:
 That is a very strange bridge on the Norman Puglisi. It looks like someone melted some sort of plastic over the top of it.

Doesn't look much like he bridges of other Puglisis I have seen.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

GOOD HEAVENS! I just looked at my bookmark of the Monzino on My eBay, only to see that it closed at $1,275! I had found it at $*41* and thought it would fetch a few hundred... Was the early mando mafia behind this?

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## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"For every pleasure there is a corresponding pain. Bob's Law."

While I am not philosophically qualified to subscribe to or refute Bob's Law, I must agree with him in that the supreme Epicurean pleasure is _isonomía_, i.e. equilibrium, balance, as Bob correctly states. I have found mine in new instruments, on which I can play as well or rather as badly#as *I* can, not as _they_ allow me to. But that is another subject.

As I scroll down this august thread (thank you, Jim!), I realize its enormous contribution to shaping a "benchmark" of sorts. No reader of this thread could possibly be taken in by a sly or plain ignorant eBay seller claiming that his beat-up Stella is worth "thousands and thousands of dollars". Yes, auction outcomes may occasionally shock the ignorant (as in my previous post), but the value of this thread has been and continues to be great indeed.

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## etbarbaric

Hello Victor,

No mafia... just two people who wanted the same thing. I was one of those two people and I managed to blow my final bid and lost the thing (or it would have been even higher). I have corresponded with the winner, a nice gentleman who 's family comes from Lombardia. So... it has found a good home with someone who knows what the instrument is.

Just FYI, my interest in this particular instrument stemmed from the possibility that it represents a transitional design between the earlier Milanese and the later Lombardian mandolin. Note that though this mandolin shares the Lombardian shape (and general weight of construction), it lacks the raised, scalloped fretboard. It also clearly never had a scratch-plate.

In typical form, I found something I wanted even more the very next day after loosing this one... life goes on... 

Eric

----------


## Jim Garber

> In typical form, I found something I wanted even more the very next day after loosing this one... life goes on...


Eric:
So.... keep us guessing... di dyou find a better Lombardi mandolino?

Jim

----------


## Eugene

> I have corresponded with the winner, a nice gentleman who 's family comes from Lombardia. #So... it has found a good home with someone who knows what the instrument is.


I've noticed the Monzino winner's username is "ceruti." Does this happen to be Dr. Marion Ceruti? If so, that's no gentleman! ...But I would be glad if this fell into her caring hands.

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

> Plami:
>  That is a very strange bridge on the Norman Puglisi. It looks like someone melted some sort of plastic over the top of it.
> 
> Doesn't look much like he bridges of other Puglisis I have seen.




I don`t think it`s unusual. Just the one end is broken and the other looks worn of moving the hand over it. The whole mandolin looks like it was very hard treated. A lot of playing may be, I don`t know. It`s hard to say, what`s the thing over the bridge. The picture is made with flash and that could cause illusion. The thing over the top of the bridge could be also mother of pearl or rather ivory, which lost his brilliance as a result of the same long and probably hard treatment. I have seen old ivory, which is almost transparent. Bratsche, could this be ivory? The ivory on the bridge is not an unusual thing. The entire mandolin looks like the Puglisis tried to give the best of themselves by building this mandolin. It might be custom model. All of this are just my suppositions.

Good luck!

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi Jim,

In time perhaps... the transaction is still in the works.
Eugene, yes. I presume you know her? I'll contact you off-line.

Thanks,

Eric

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## vkioulaphides

Ehm... Eric, I understand Eugene to mean that Dr. Marion C. is a _lady_.

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## etbarbaric

Yup... I'm catching on... better late than never...

In my defense... Marion *can* be both a male and female name...

Perhaps I had better start the day over...

Doh!

----------


## Jim Garber

I too have been in contact with Dr. Ceruti about Albertini mandolini. I diurected her to our little group here. She has not posted as yet but kight be lurking. She has a definite interest in these Lombardi mandolini.

I am looking fwd to hearing of your mandolin adventure when you are ready to tell.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman



----------


## Bob A

I suppose the day will come when I will successfully acquire a Lombard mandolin. Me, I like the scallops and scratchplate, and deeply regret blowing my chance last summer for one in Italy.Of course, it would still be in repair had I managed it.

Balance is important in life. though those who've read my posts will wonder how such an essentially UNbalanced individual could come to such a conclusion. Simple, really - we long for the roads not taken in this life, for the options forever closed off by time and decisions made by default or ignorance. This might explain, if not justify, my occasional pursuit of the odd enthusiasm.

All that notwithstanding, anyone know where I can find music to Ali's recent version of Sakura? I keep coming up blank.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here's a rather peculiar Washburn. The fretboard is very highly ornamented and the tuner plate engraving is very fancy. This doesn't seem to sit well with the simply outlandish soundboard: flat, no cant, dark brown and a pink rosette aorund the soundhole is not what would expect from a bowlback. What's up with this? Has this been refinished/vandalised at some stage? The price in any case seems rather optimistic.

This one seems to be much the same model in terms of the bowl, fretboard and headstock, but a somewhat more traditional soundboard.

Martin

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## trebleclef528

hereis a nice one on ebay France.... but I do have my doubts about it being a 1780 Vinaccia ...nice never the less.

And this carlo albertini"Lombardian" looks exceptionally nice.

How are you all?
Best wishes,
Ian

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## Eugene

That first Washburn is a tragedy. The soundboard clearly is not original. I can't see the label or interior of the healthier one, but I would wager both are (were) 1905-1909 style 250s. At the time, this was second down from the top of the line. Have you catalog corroboration, Jim?

I (and I suspect a few others here) were offered the 18th-c. piece on eBay France before it hit eBay. I suspect the 1780 Vinaccia might be largely authentic, but it needs a whole lot of help. The inlays in the table are rather crudely replaced. The scratchplate has also been replaced and grossly extended. On the other hand, the neck looks mighty nice.

The Albertini is mighty tasty.

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## Martin Jonas

As it happens, the seller of that second Washburn has a third one as well. Both end today.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

After a quick look, Washburn #2 I believe is a Style 250. The retopped oddball looks like it was oncve possibly a 275 since the engraving on the fretboard is almost a vinelike one as opposed to separate smaller fretmarker types.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

That same seller of the Vinaccia has a basket case Serafino Casini mandolino Lombardo, the same maker as mine. I would be curious to see what it ends up going for.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

Yes, the 18th-century Neapolitan is something of a tragedy too. I agree with Eugene that the inlay is botched and non-original. That scratchplate makes me crazy and the rose surround is extremely odd. You could probably pull similar details from other examples, but you'd have to laminate the "extra" portion under the goofy scratchplate extension with spruce... it would take a very talented luthier and a good grain match to pull it off visually. Not that it couldn't be done but it would be expensive.

It looks great from the back though... maybe hang it facing a wall? :-)

Eric

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## etbarbaric

I saw the Casini too Jim. Its in way worse shape then my Albertini was... and I spent *big* bucks to bring mine back to life.

Geeze... so... what is it? Did I miss the notice for Mandolino Lombardi week or something?

Eric

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## Jim Garber

> Did I miss the notice for Mandolino Lombardi week or something?


Aren't you one the Mandolino Lombardo mailing list? 

Strange but a few months ago this same seller had a small pile of Brescian mandolinos. It would be interesting to find out his source. He may just be scouring French flea markets.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

So the orchestra model Embergher ended in a flurry or bids for a respectable 1810. It looks like it was a battle of two over this prize.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi,

And another Lombard in the Neapolitan fashion... 


Greetings, 

Alex

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## Jim Garber

> Hi,
> 
> And another Lombard in the Neapolitan fashion... 
> 
> 
> Greetings, 
> 
> Alex


I see that Mr. Walz (musicisti) has the current high bid on this one. Good luck, Richard.

Alex, is it another Albertini?

Jim

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## Jim Garber

They are coming out of the woodwork...

1888 Embergher: Strange doings on the label tho. Possibly a reattached one after some luthierie? This from liutaiomagico

1963 Calace: seems like a reasonable Buy It Now price. I wish I had the money...

Jim

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## Eugene

1888 would be very early for Embergher. Intriguing.

The Lombard mandolin is the near twin to my new Brescian mandolin by Bavassano. The soundbox is identical down to the scrtatchplate, purfling-strip rosette, scrollwork in the clasp, and strap button. Where it differesis in number of strings, of course, and featuring a partial scroll terminating in a square finial. (Good luck, Richard!)

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim,

No, it´s not made by Milanese Luthiers like Albertini or Monzino. It is a Neapolitan made Lombard mandolin and has most likely been made in the Bavassano atelier. This maker´s 6-string Lombardian mandolin model has a very ´roundish´ soundboard shape and is indeed in appearance very similar to Eugene´s Neapolitan made 4-string Brescian mandolin. 
Eye-catching and typical ´Bavassano´ details are also the bridge, scratchplate and fine back of the maple bowl.


As for the 1888 mandolin I can only say that the label it is carrying is an original Embergher label, but that it - for several reasons in my opinion - does not belong to this mandolin.
Therefore no Embergher mandolin, only an Embergher label in a Roman style Mandolin.


Best, 

Alex

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Plamen,

Not quite the same like the Robert Normann Puglisi, but again one of the concert and better mandolins with a 24 fret fingerboard by the Puglisi firm.
And as you see, there are more mandolins with dragons than only those made by Embergher.

Greetings,

Alex

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## Martin Jonas

The latest UK crop: yet another de Meglio, looking a bit bedraggled, and one of those English guitar-bodied mandolins. This one has a de Meglio-style string tensioner and what is described as a "stone end piece", whatever that means. Finally, another decent-looking Suzuki, this one sold by our Ian with a "Buy It Now" of 250 Pounds.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> This one has a de Meglio-style string tensioner and what is described as a "stone end piece", whatever that means. #


I think he/she is referring to the tuner buttons. Strange terminology, but if you don't understand it, Martin, #it is prob not a Britishism.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

This Gennaro allievo de Vinaccia (pardon my mangling the Italian) looks like it is doing quite nicely for a basket case instrument.

It seems like the price is now more than the worth of the parts, tho the tuners are nice and prob useable on another instrument.

I just started a new thread querying info on Gennaro/Rubino, etc.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

I think I will go into business buying up old mandolins and putting the Vinaccia label inside. 

... all of this "allievo di Vinaccia" discussion reminds me of an episode of "Antiques Roadshow" I once heard described. A lady and her sister had what she was sure was a very valuable Stradivarius violin. It had been in the family for many years, handed down from her father. She knew it was genuine not only because it said Stradivarius on the label, but because it was dedicated to his wife... one Facebat Anno... Apparently the appraiser was hard pressed to keep a straight face.... and the sisters were not ammused by the bad news...

----------


## onthefiddle

There's a "Gennaro Rubino" listed at the moment on eBay, though it doesn't seem to resemble the few other Rubinos I've seen so well, such as this one that ended fairly recently. The quality of the the craftsmanship on the currently listed Rubino is less impressive than that on other instruments I've seen bearing his name (look, for instance, at the clumsiness of the purfling near the tailpiece). The soundboard looks like it may have been sanded, and this can destroy or obscure details of craftsmanship though.
The inlay is certainly distinctive - does anyone recognise it?

----------


## Martin Jonas

> This Gennaro allievo de Vinaccia (pardon my mangling the Italian) looks like it is doing quite nicely for a basket case instrument.
> 
> It seems like the price is now more than the worth of the parts, tho the tuners are nice and prob useable on another instrument.


$880 winning bid. Clearly _someone_ (some two, in fact) thinks this is genuine, despite the rampant speculation going on in today's Vinaccia threads. In fact, this seems vastly excessive even for a genuine Vinaccia, given its appalling condition and the fact that regardless of who made it, it's a very plain instrument.

Martin

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## etbarbaric

Indeed. And I do think it is genuine, in the sense that it probably was made in a Fratelli Vinaccia "factory" or at least had the Fratelli Vinaccia label genuinely glued in. Like you, I question the idea of paying that amount for a severely broken, lower-to-mid end mandolin built by anonymous hands. 

The high bidders are looking at the name on the label... not the mandolin. They will have a ton of money into the thing before its playable... I hope they don't loose the label! :-)

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## Plamen Ivanov

Hello, Alex! Thank you very much for the picture of this Puglisi! Very interesting! Do you think, that the Dragon was copied from Embergher? And is this Puglisi (I cannot realized it from the picture) made in the Roman style? I remember, that you mentioned once before, that some Puglisis were made in the Roman style. I haven`t seen such so far. 

I know, I could be getting boring with that question, but do you have an explanation about the dragon decoration of the Embergher mandolins? I still cannot tear myself away of the fact, that he was born in the year of the dragon according to the Chinese calendar. Are there any clues in his CV, that he was interested in the Chinese culture or something? Or am I going too far in my suppositions and it`s just a casual choice of decoration?

Good luck!

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

And here is another plain Puglisi that comes together with a Briano pick. Obviously the Germans have used picks with different shapes, despite Mr. Alberto`s instructions!

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## Alex Timmerman

A very good evening to you Plamen!

Well I would not go as far as bringing up the Chinese (ancient) culture together with Luigi Embergher´s birth in the year of the Dragon etc. ...

But yes, a connection with the Japanese interest in the Italian mandolin at the time (remember that several Italian Mandolin virtuosi gave concerts in Japan - including Raffaele Calace) could have inspired Luigi Embergher to incorporate the typical and important Japanese and Chinese Dragon in his Art. An image that is found in many artistic expressions like sculptures, prints and paintings made in these countries, not to forget the ones on porcelein and glass etc. etc.

Therefore it is not so strange that with the interest in Europe (World exhibitions; the famous one in Paris for instance had a complete area dedicated to the Japanese culture!) for the Japanese/Chinese social and cultural way of living a succesful luthier like Luigi Embergher found the Dragon as the most adequate symbol for his most beautiful and artistic mandolin models. #

This Puglisi mandolin I showed here (one page back) carries indeed a dragon that is very similar to one that I know of Luigi Embergher. This particular Puglisi Dragon is a bit more abstrahated - perhaps a bit more agressive is good to mention if we have to use words to describe it) than the usual that the Maestro used. But I know at least one by Luigi Embergher that is very identical to Puglisi´s.


Best, 

Alex.

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

A very good evening to you too, Alex!  

Yes, the "Japan connection" seems to be logical in principle. 
I noticed, that the Dragon on this Puglisi is very similar to L. Embergner`s one, that`s why I supposed, that it might have been copied from the Puglisis. Do you know, when this Puglisi has been built?

Don`t hurry with the reply. I think, it`s time for the Europeans to go to bed! 

Thank you once again!

Plamen

----------


## Alex Timmerman

And as for Signor Alberto; he immigrated for the 2nd time and probably gave up not to be bothered anymore...

----------


## Alex Timmerman

I´m sure it was not Luigi Embergher how copied the Dragon. It is more the other way around. There are Embergher mandolins with Dragons made before 1900.
I will look when the Puglisi was made (IF there is a date on the label). To answer your question if this is a Roman style mandolin? No, there is no characteristic what so ever in this mandolin that refers to the Roman Mandolin type. It is much more a Neapolitan mandolin à la Calace.

I´ll see If I have an image of a Roman style mandolin build by Puglisi for you.


For now sleep well,

Alex

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Yes, yes! It`s exactly what I mean. The Puglisis have copied the dragon from Embergher. This one looks a late Puglisi.

It was difficult for me to recognize the type (unles may be by the peghead, which is not Roman), although as I said I have never seen a Roman model Puglisi. I`ve heard about a flatback Puglisi, but also never seen one.

Thanks, have a nice sleep as well!

Plamen

----------


## onthefiddle

I have just been looking at the "Gennaro Rubino" that is due to end on eBay fairly soon.
The label shown in the closeup photograph of the soundhole is quite noticably different from the labels on the instruments that Jim has shown in this thread.
I think it's particularly important to note the label in both the close up shot of the soundhole, and the first (main) photograph - compare the two. In the closeup of the soundhole you will note that the label is quite off centre (not so far out of keeping with the rest of the instrument), now look at the picture of the instrument lying on its side - is that an optical illusion? Still, I think the most surprising illusion would be to compare either of these with the first shot.
Such a loose label is bound to set up some kind of buzz as the instrument is played! Perhaps the seller should have glued it in place before he took the photographs.  
Tricky thing when the glue dries out on a label. 
Back to the Jims labels - do you think this is a later example?

Jon

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi Jon,

I don't think the label is loose. Its probably just a matter of camera angle. The label is, perhaps, a little higher in the body than normal so it can only be seen in the photographs with a lower perspective.

And yes, this is a later label for Sr. Rubino than those we were analyzing. Someone else in another thread (perhaps Martin?) suggested that by 1913 (the late date of this label) the marketing advantage of drawing attention to Rubino's Vinaccia association may have passed.

From a decorative perspective... Sr. Rubino seems to have (ahem) gone round the bend by this point...

Eric

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## Bob A

An Embergher on Ebay in Germany, for your perusal.

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## Jim Garber

I just got notice that Marco O has a beautiful 1937 Cerrone 5-bis for sale on his site. The price is super high: 10.000.

Marco believes that there was work done it by the Calace shop since the bridge looks like a Calace style.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"The price is super high."

That's because the mandolin had to be thoroughly cleaned out by hand, after having been submerged in _vinaccia_ in the process of the _Weinlese_.

 

*malicious snicker*

----------


## Jim Garber

Just checking out Tony Bingham's site (dealer in the UK). He has some interesting mandolins, notably:

The Concert-Mandolin by L. Romito e Carbone, Naples, ca. 1890 with a very early version of the "Tone Gard".

De Pietro Concert Grand signed by Mario De Pietro, 1937, another attempt at double soundboard but not at all like either Gelas or Ceccherini.

1922 Calace

1924 Embergher

1776 Donatus Filano

1895 Luigi Salsedo

Tho not a bowlback, there is also this very strange 16 string Mando Harp.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Weird instruments, those. The Romito e Carbone looks just freakish with that aluminium chastity belt, the little maple scratchplate insert and the tiny f-holes. The De Pietro construction is indeed nothing like either Ceccherini or Gelas, but also doesn't look very functional to me. If the bridge rests on the lower top, how is the main top driven? And with that big cutout of the main top, plus the soundhole, does the main top still get its vibrational modes cleanly? And with all of the pressure of the strings resting on the lower top, how is it supported? If its edges are firmly attached to the inside of the bowl, how is the main top acoustically coupled, and if it is suspended instead, doesn't the string tension tear it off? Very peculiar. Prices look high to me, but then they do look in reasonably good shape.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Martin:
Have you been to Bingham's shop in London? I was there in the late 1970s and it was small but filled with many museum quality instruments. My Strohviol originally came from him and I used to see him at all the auctions in New York.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

No, I haven't been. I see it's in Hampstead, and I may drop in if I have some spare time when I'm next down in London. No chance of buying any of these, though.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

If nothing else, Martin, it would be interesting to hear how they sound, play, etc.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Plamen,

Here is an image of a ´Roman´ style Puglisi Reale that was (and perhaps still is) offered for sale by Alfred Woll.  
You can visit his Webpage by clicking on his name here after which you have to click on REPRODUCTIONS and on VINTAGE and than hit ´Reale´.
Interesting isn´t it?


Best greetings,

Alex

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## Alex Timmerman

And hello BobA,

The Embergher you noticed was sold for the ´Buy it now´ price of 2300 US Dollars.


Best, 

Alex

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## Bob A

Apparently the Japanese buyer of the Embergher also scored a Brazilian Vinaccia a while ago. Good taste knows no bounds, except perhaps the financial.

Herr Woll has more than one Embergher-style instrument in his vintage collection. Many tasty mandolins; his Stridente looks gorgeous, and the 18th century Filano has me drooling. 

I apologise for my gustatory verbiage; but it IS dinner time as I write.

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## Jim Garber

Here is a more direct link to the Puglisi.

I was wondering when someone would buy that Embergher A for the Buy It Now. It seemedf reasonable by today's prices.

Jim

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## Plamen Ivanov

Hello Alex and Jim!

Thank you both! Now when I saw this one, I recall about another similar Puglisi, that was included in that fabulous mandolin collection, that was dated 1895.

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## vkioulaphides

Well, I did take one valiant shot at the Embergher, slightly above $1K; it was not meant to be.

But I am a man reformed, MAS-wise; at least until I make some progress in terms of my mandolin _playing_#a process that can take several lifetimes, at the very least.

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## Alex Timmerman

And another one! This time a 1936 Orchestra tipo N.*2*. 
Except fot the un-original bridge it looks to be in good condition.

Click here to see it.


Greetings,

Alex

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## vkioulaphides

Alex! I *told* you I am a man reformed! What are you trying to do? DE-reform me?

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## onthefiddle

A nice Domenico Zanoni has come up for sale in Australia.
It features fluted ribs, and an attractive burr apron rib. Unfortunately the apron rib (predictably from the cut of the wood) has cracked.
More seriously it appears to be cracking across the grain on the cant, also some purfling is missing from the edge near the cant, and has been replaced with some type of filler. Hopefully there aren't any other makeshift repairs. 
It has several other obvious problems but is an attractive higher end instrument and, if the reserve isn't too high, worthy of restoration to its certain former glory.

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## pklima

Not a bowlback but a Howe mandolinetto with six hours to go... listed as a ukulele so it may end up affordable:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....53&rd=1

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## Plamen Ivanov

Welcome back, Peter! Nice to see you!

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## Jim Garber

> Howe mandolinetto


Oops! I had put a bid on this one just before I saw your posting. I have a feeling this may be snipe city when it finally sells tho. Even with the funky neck repair I imagine that it will go for over $400.

Jim

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## pklima

Howdy! I'm still around, though I don't post much anymore. I may not have any "real" mandolins but I still play cello banjo and just set up an electric bass tuned in fifths (an octave below cello) and those are mandokin, though distant.

I just happened to run across the Howe while checking out the "competition" for an 8-string electric bass I'm selling. Hope it ends up in good hands and gets repaired properly...

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## Jim Garber

> Even with the funky neck repair I imagine that it will go for over $400.


Hey, I was pretty close...$332.50... I still have the touch 

Jim

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## onthefiddle

The mid to late nineteenth century mandolin, that I recently posted pictures of in the Post a picture of your bowlback thread, has come up for auction on eBay UK.
I have a nearly identical instrument, though lacking its original pegs. I don't think you could really call this a true Baroque Neapolitan Mandolin - but it could be strung and played as one!

Jon

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## Martin Jonas

Interesting one, Jon. Would this have been strung with gut or metal strings? The ones that are on now appear to be metal, for what that's worth. I'm tempted to get it (if cheap) and string it with nylon for some tonal variety.

Martin

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## onthefiddle

I'm not sure exactly what this would have been strung with originally, Martin. Pegs would seem rather impractical for all steel cored strings. The seller did mention to me that he had put these strings on some years ago - the pegs slipped immediately, and he gave up on it. I suppose those pegs saved the mandolin, though lost us a mandolinist!

I'm not sure when the older mixed stringing finally faded out. Certainly both types would have been used for some time after the introduction of steel cored strings.

The older stringing is described in some detail (by Ephraim Segermann?) on the Northern Renaissance Instruments site.

His handmade strings aren't cheap, though I'm sure they are good. Eugene mentioned Gamut Strings to me who are more reasonable. Kurschner make decent Baroque Violin strings, which are priced quite reasonably. They mention Mandolin on their website, but don't go into detail, so you would have to contact them - no problem for you and your multilingual skills though!

Good luck!

Jon

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## Eugene

I string mine with the Gamut set which is a mixture of silver-wound silk, brass wire, and gut. Actually, I keep nylon on the e" strings for practice and routine use because gut just frays too quickly under the quill.

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## onthefiddle

I've had a thought regarding the unusual pegs of the 19th century Mandolin. I'll post it in the Post a picture of your bowlback thread as it seems more in keeping there, but as the instrument is up for auction now I thought I should mention it here.

Jon

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## Jim Garber

Nice photos of a Paul Hums bowlback on this thread.

Jim

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## Plamen Ivanov

A very typical and nice Puglisi here

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## onthefiddle

Has anyone seen anything like this before?  
It looks like someone has opened out the soundhole by cutting away the rose. It may have a violin style neck. The pegbox was obviously previously equipped with mechanical tuners.
I suppose it could be successfully restored if you knew what the missing rose looked like. The price seems optimistic though, unless I've missed this maker's name before.

Jon

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## guitharsis

Ian's done it again. #Where does he find all of these nice mandolins?! #Love the Puglisi, but since I just got a de Meglio . . .

As nice as it is, my de Meglio does not have the original bridge and is missing the string downholder and the string guard as shown here: www.farnese.co.uk/Memo2.htm

Wasn't someone on ebay selling bridges that could be used on vintage bowlbacks? 

Also, read in a cafe post that there were 10,000 1A de Meglio mandolins made. #Maybe there are some around that are beyond repairing but that could be used for parts? 

Doreen

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## onthefiddle

Hi Doreen!

If you do find another bridge for a de Meglio it will still need to be fitted to your instrument.

If neither of the bridges you have is suitable then you could consider making your own. I'm sure that other de Meglio owners here could supply you with photographs and measurements, and I would be happy to offer advice on carving and fitting it.
Be warned though that bridge fitting is a particularly fussy and frustrating thing to learn - you'll need buckets of patience.  
I'm afraid that the sanding cheat that is often mentioned doesn't really work, and would be particularly unsuitable for bowlbacks with their canted soundboards. 

If you don't want to attempt this yourself, and one of the bridges that you have is too high, you may well be able to have it properly fitted to your soundboard, and with the correct string heights, by a local luthier. Luthiers used to working on Mandolins, Violins and/or archtop Guitars should all be able to do this.

The downholder looks to be a fairly simple thing to make, though not being in the honoured ranks of de Meglio owners myself I couldn't help much more here. 
What is the condition of the soundboard like where the downholder is missing? You may need to do some preparatory work before fitting a new one. 
I seem to remember (Martin?) saying that he didn't feel that it made a great difference to the sound either, so perhaps it's not worth it. I can see the theory behind it, but the difference in pressure on the bridge would be fairly small unless it was tightened down considerably - and that could result in damage to the soundboard. 
I'd be wary of doing any work in this area unless you know what you are doing.

A string guard would be very simple to make, suitable celluloid can be obtained from Luthiers suppliers. Of course it would lack the nice inlay.

Jon

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## Martin Jonas

Slight caution on the Puglisi: the bridge is sitting behind the cant, at least a centimetre further back than the (visible) original footprint. That is reflected in the unusually long (for an Italian bowlback) scale length given by Ian and would presumably compromise intonation.

As for bridges, I had previously mentioned those sold by a German Ebay seller, "Franksmusic". I have one of his on my bouzouki, and it's great for that. However, they are very chunky and would look odd on your de Meglio unless whittled down substantially. My feeling is that you'll be better off working on the bridge you have (not the small one in the Ebay photos, but the additional one the seller included).

Martin

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## guitharsis

Thanks, Jon and Martin!

I'll ask the luthier to see if he can work with the bridge that was included rather than the one that is on now and shown in the ebay photo.

Doreen

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## Jim Garber

> Has anyone seen anything like this before?


There was a mandolin by Uriani on ebay last fall. Rather plain on the front but nice alternate wood ribs with fluting. This does look like it was messed around esp that soundhole and would require retopping which would negate the value unless it was a bargain.

Jim

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## onthefiddle

That's a much nicer example of his work Jim!

A new top wouldn't be strictly necessary on this instrument, though the work to restore the original soundboard would be long, difficult and very expensive! Still, I would go to greater lengths to save an original soundboard than any other part of an instrument.

I agree though, unless this is a particularly valuable instrument the cost of restoration will far outway its worth.

It's a pity that there is no rear view of the instrument given, both to see if it has a similair bowl to the example you have shown us, and to see if there are any indications as to whether that neck/pegbox is original. The pegbox is unusual in itself, and the neck seems somewhat slender.

Jon

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## Plamen Ivanov

> Slight caution on the Puglisi: the bridge is sitting behind the cant, at least a centimetre further back than the (visible) original footprint. #That is reflected in the unusually long (for an Italian bowlback) scale length given by Ian and would presumably compromise intonation.



Don`t think so. The "visible original footprint" seems to be too close to the hole, over the inlay, and not at the right place at all. I think it`s OK, where it is now. 

Good luck!

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## Martin Jonas

You know Puglisi much better than me, and you're certainly right that given the position of the cant, and of the inlay, putting the bridge before the cant would mean it overlapping with the tail of the butterfly. That wouldn't seem right. However, the only bowls I've seen that were designed to have the bridge behind the cant were Vegas, and I wasn't aware of any Italian ones designed in that way. Is the bridge behind the cant on your Puglisi as well?

Martin

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## onthefiddle

A question has been raised in the Builders/Repair section about a bowlback with a radiused fingerboard. I have asked him to post pictures of the instrument and given him a link to Alex's site. You can find the thread here.

Jon

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## Alex Timmerman

Yes, pictures sure would help a lot!

Cheers,

Alex

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## guitharsis

Beautiful mandolin, Alex!

The luthier I brought my de Meglio to has offered to try to replicate the bridge. He's very taken with the mandolin and has taken pictures of it and even called his dad over to see it.

Would anyone be willing to share dimensions of the de Meglio bridge?

Doreen

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## Martin Jonas

Doreen -- there was a fairly long discussion with pictures on building a replacement bridge and downholder for a de Meglio here. The bridge design of the de Meglio is virtually identical to the Ceccherinis, so the closeups of the bridges for my Ceccherinis in the above-linked thread should give you and your luthier a reasonable idea. I recommend to use a 2mm solid brass rod (made for example by K&S and available from model-building shops) as the saddle, filed flat on one side. 

The dimensions of the Ceccherini bridge are:

Length overall: 123mm

Length of saddle insert: 48mm

Overall height: 8.2mm (NB: this is the height of the bridge, but with this design,
the height of the saddle above the soundboard is _less_ than that).

Width at base: 6.8mm

Distance from underside of saddle insert to base: 3.3mm (NB: This is the parameter that determines the height of the action and you will need to optimise it individually for your mandolin).

Good luck,

Martin

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## guitharsis

Thanks, Martin.

I'll direct Joel this this page. The information seems quite detailed and is sure to provide him with a good idea of what needs to be done.

Thanks again. Doreen

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## Plamen Ivanov

Hello Martin,

You are right! Now I took a closer look at it and I realized, that it`s not the bridge, that went over the butterfly inlay, but the butterfly inlay went down under the bridge! Here is what I mean - the standard dimension butterfly inlay is in this particular case not right next to the hole, but 8-9 mm. lower, because of the oval inlay around the hole. Interesting why the Puglisis haven`t took this in consideration?! And weren`t they irritated from an aesthetic point of view?! 

Ian (trebleclef528), did you move back the bridge of the Puglisi? May be with a marketing purpose, so the people could see the whole butterfly inlay. There are already some bids on the mandolin and that`s very good! Good luck!

The bridge of my Puglisi is almost right on the cant, may be 1mm ahead.

Thanks,
Plamen

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## trebleclef528

Hi Palmen,
I've been following this but never had time to reply until now...to busy organising a Mandolin teachers residential weekend.

I think you and Martin are both correct in your own ways... yes I moved the bridge because I wanted to show the inlay at it's best and, like you, I could'nt beleive that they would deliberately want to cover the lovely Butterfly inlay.... however I did move it back to far, rectified it, (but unfortunately took the photographs first). It now lies about 1mm before the cant giving a scale length of 335mm. I've actualyy got another 3 puglisi's and all the bridges are just before the cant.
Best Wishes,
ian (see you in March Martin...letter with final details going out on Monday).

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## onthefiddle

Not as noteworthy as the auction title might suggest, here is an American(?) bowlback mislabeled as an Embergher. I see there have been ten bids already.

Jon

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## Martin Jonas

This is probably in the "pigs with lipstick" category -- a vastly overdecorated, scalloped-rib, 12-string labelled P. Cosentino, with a particularly "interesting" soundhole shape. Considering recent bowlback prices, I'm pretty surprised that it is at £155, but still below the reserve. The bowl actually looks quite nice, but the top is not for me.

Martin

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## onthefiddle

Here is a Fratelli Vinaccia, it's not starting cheap though, and I think you would have to go to Italy and collect it in person - though my German isn't good, and I'm open to correction!

Jon

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## Martin Jonas

The entry on the Vinaccia does indeed say that it is to be collected in person from Naples, although I cannot imagine that the seller is serious about that. If you don't want to read the shipping conditons in German, here is the entry in English.

Incidentally, the dubious Cosentino went for £320 -- looking through the buyer's recent purchases is a truly racy read!

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

This Stridente went for £191.25. Although it's clearly a rather low-end instrument, it looks to be in great condition. I wonder whether it has been restored, or just very well looked after. Of course, one never knows about the condition of the neck and such like, but at a slightly lower price I would have thrown my hat in the ring for this one.

Of possibly more interest is this unlabelled bowlback. It has friction tuners, and from the view of the tailpiece appears to be strung with proper mixed stringing, not ruined by steel strings (which in any case would also be supported by the quoted relatively low action). Strange selection of photos, with the view of the closed case as the gallery photo and no view of the entire front. Starting bid £150.

Finally, this is a nice looking vintage leather case. If still sturdy, it may be a good alternative to a modern bowlback case at least at its starting price.

Martin

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## onthefiddle

> This Stridente went for £191.25. Although it's clearly a rather low-end instrument, it looks to be in great condition. I wonder whether it has been restored


I'm afraid I wouldn't call that restored  

The soundboard has plainly been sanded, but worst of all look at how all the cracks in the apron rib have been dealt with - that looks like "mahogany" coloured wood filler to me - and wood filler has no place in restoration.

Personally I find honest cracks (particularly clean ones) less offputting than uninformed "refurbishment" (as it is often called). For non-luthiers a lack of poor "repairs" means a substantially smaller bill if they want to have the instrument restored, and for luthiers it means a lot less work!

This type of treatment does affect the value as well. If you were to go to a dealer with this, it would be standard for them to halve the value if it has been (well) refinished, and reduce the value further by the cost of undoing the previous poor repair work and redoing it properly. 

From a financial point of view these instruments are a poor investment. From a players point of view they may be a good buy if they are otherwise sound, and their condition is reflected in the price.

This normally arises from the owners lack of knowledge rather than any dishonesty - they genuinely think they are improving the instrument and really don't understand what they are doing.  

Jon

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## Martin Jonas

Jon -- it's difficult to tell from the photos, but I thought that the cracks in the apron rib were unrepaired and just catching the light like that. Of course, if they have been "repaired" with wood filler, that's unacceptable. It was the eerily even colour of the soundboard that made me wonder if it was worked on or just very well protected from light during its lifetime. Again, the photos may be misleading, and I have in the past found that flash photos tend make a soundboard look much lighter and more evenly coloured than it looks in the flesh, but if it was sanded, then whoever did it protected the binding and scratchplate pretty well. Either way, I didn't buy it and wouldn't have bought it at that price anyway, so it's the new owner's lookout.

Martin

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## onthefiddle

Hi Martin,

Fresh cracks have sharp edges. Older cracks can become rounded if somebody has been rubbing their finger over the area (something to avoid if you ever find a crack on one of your instruments), they will also become darkened in that case - due to oils from the persons skin discolouring the wood around the edges.

As someone who has seen a lot of cracks, I can say with confidence that the cracks on the apron rib of that Mandolin do not look like normal old dirty ones. 
I also have a helper here : the browser that I am using (K-Meleon) allows me to zoom in on images (through the right click menu), and by doing that I can see more clearly that the two larger cracks, closer to the tailpiece, certainly appear to have been filled with something. 

The scratchplate on this mandolin is made of some attractive burr veneer, so could be sanded as easily as the soundboard. If they had gone so far as to sand through the veneer they would have certainly made the instrument very unstable.

As I said - this type of work is normally done with best of intentions, but it is also one of the most common ways that instruments are made financially worthless (and so not restored, and eventually lost). It occurs because of a lack of knowledge, and the only way to prevent more old instruments being lost this way is to make people more aware. Hopefully these posts may contribute a little towards that awareness.

Jon

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## onthefiddle

We've seen some aluminium Mandolins go by - here is one with a fluted copper bowl!

This doesn't look like a serious instrument, but with it's bridge attached to the soundboard and four strings it could theoretically be a Mandolino Bresciano!  

Jon

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## trebleclef528

Ebay France item 7306330081
Mandoline Balbiani 
Interesting

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## Jim Garber

> Ebay France item 7306330081
> Mandoline Balbiani 
> Interesting


Here is the link. Ian, do you know anything of the maker? It certainly is "jolie" but what else? The seller doesn't seem to want to talek or even show a label which is visible thru those double soundholes.

Certainly because of that crack, I would say the price is out of line ... unless there is something about this maker that someone else knows.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

I just heard from the seller. She didn't send a photo of the lable but the maker is from Napoli -- no surprise there, right?

Label reads:



> Fabricatore d'instrumenti BALBIANI LUIGI specialita di mandolini NAPOLI


Jim

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## Jim Garber

How do these things happen? *Not one, but two* mandolins by Michele Maratea -- no waiting! Step on up!! #

Numero uno Maratea and Numero dos Maratea (from our pal Marco).

Must be a trend!

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Remarkably different looking, the two Marateas. Numero Uno is in dubious condition, but to my eyes rather more appealing than numero dos.

Speaking of instruments turning up in clusters: you may remember that there was a mini-flood of Ferraris (mandolins, that is, not cars) a couple of months ago, after one of them went for several hundred Pounds. Here is another one, looking in reasonable condition. Some Ferraris have a "Distributed by Alban Voigt, London" label, looking very similar to the Ceccherini label, but this one doesn't. I've only ever seen one Ferrari in the flesh (at Hobgoblin in London) and that didn't appeal much to me. I don't know if they are considered desirable.

Otherwise, another Stridente, plain but solid-looking, and yet another de Meglio, this one pitched perhaps rather to high to sell, given the relative plethora of de Meglios. After all, two very nice ones went for around £50 recently on Ebay, albeit possibly in not quite as good a condition as this one.

Martin

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## trebleclef528

Quote #
Fabricatore d'instrumenti BALBIANI LUIGI specialita di mandolini NAPOLI 

I really don't know anything about the maker and obviously neither does the seller... I agree Jim, the price is very high, but who knows given the unusual soundhole some collector will probably snap it up.

The Ferrari (referred to by Martin) looks a bit more up market than the usual one's that appear on ebay and I reckon the price could head to the region of £150.

As to Numero uno Maratea and Numero dos Maratea, I'm just amazed.... for weeks you get nothing of interest on ebay, then wham! your bank balance could plummit (assuming that is you suffer from MAS), I think the UK seller does not know the desirability of the instrument which apparently has been in the family for many years.

ps I had the pleasure of seeing Martins Ceccherini at the weekend.... what a superb instrument!

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## Jim Garber

While not exactly a bowlback, there is a Seiffert currently in the classifieds, ad #13228. I believe that Norman Levine imported these into the US. I remember a few members of the New York Mandolin Orchestra bought them. At the time I didn't get it. A flatback mandolin for high price. the sound was uninteresting to me at the time since I was more attuned to the Gibson sonic aesthetic. 

Basically these were deep-bodied flatbacks, prob equivalent in soundbox volume to the bowlbacks. Outfitted with Thomastiks, they certainly conformed to the german aesthetic. The price seems pretty fair for those who are looking for something like that.

Jim

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## trebleclef528

Quote:While not exactly a bowlback, there is a Seiffert currently in the classifieds, ad #13228.

It seems to have disappeared.... It had been advertised on Ebay and did not reach it's reserve.... I think the seller was looking for around $1000 which is possibly a very good buy. Apparently 12 were made for the American market. I'm really surprised that the seller did not target the German market with this one because it would probably have gone for loads.......... and if there really were only 12 made, I would say it was a good financial investment as well as a good instrument.

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## Martin Jonas

> The Ferrari (referred to by Martin) looks a bit more up market than the usual one's that appear on ebay and I reckon the price could head to the region of £150.


Clearly, Ian is aiming for Jim's crown: the Ferrari went for £175 in the end, to an Italian buyer.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

I may try to get the doubletop Ceccherini that just came on eBay UK (Thanks to Ian for the "heads up"!). It looks to be in good shape. I assume that it is a double-soundboard one since it has those staples in the top behind the bridge. I have a feeling that I will be outbid at the end, esp since I will be out at my kid's bus stop at the end of the auction.

My one and only vintage Italian bowlback. the Stridente, is getting lonely.

Jim

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## onthefiddle

Following the fairly recent appearance of an almost "Baroque" Neapolitan Mandolin on eBay UK, which was identical to my own instrument (discussed in the "Post a Picture Of Your Bowlback" thread) - here is another identical instrument on eBay France.

This one appears to be in fantastic condition, partially perhaps due to a little restoration. The pegs appear to be nice modern reproductions of eighteenth century Mandolin style pegs, though I suppose there's some chance that they could be original. 

If you want to inspect larger versions of any of the small pictures on the auction page, right click on them and choose "View Image" - most of them are actually larger pictures that have resized for the page, so appear much bigger in a seperate window. This works in K-Meleon, and probably Firefox. The series of six images in the top left corner of the page don't seem to work properly in Internet Explorer.

The seller says that this instrument was probably made before 1850, though I don't know if he has any more information to go on than us over these instruments. Last night, while searching through old posts for some other information, I stumbled upon this thread in which Jim posted an old ad for Mandolins by C. Bruno & Son from 1888. I'd missed this as I was still in the process of moving from Canada, and didn't have an internet connection. This certainly makes the possible dating of these Mandolins much later, I think the key to putting an earliest possible date for them lies with the metal tailpiece that they all have. Does anyone know when they were first introduced?

Jon

----------


## Eugene

This seller is Richard Walz. I believe I've seen this very instrument in person. I also suspect that if it needed any work, it was of a trivial "set up" nature and probably executed by Dan Larson. My own guess would be that this was made right around 1850 or a bit later. Really, this only constitutes a guess. The head is not attached via the typical v-shaped volute that I would expect of earlier pieces. It also does not look as though the headstock ever carried decorative finials, which were an outmoded means of decor but mandolins seemed conservsative in maintaining them comfortably into the 19th c. If the position markers are original, it would also imply this piece is later than earlier; e.g., Martin didn't start using such things until the very late 19th c. The hitch pins on my similar mandolin cover a greater span than the tailpiece of this instrument. I would be tempted to peer under the tailpiece of this one for evidence of hitch pins. Has the tailpiece been off Richard? I'm not certain when such tailpieces as this one appeared, but I don't think it was until the 1880s. Some manufacturers (e.g., Stridente) neglected metal tailpieces and maintained the conservative ivory hitch pin arrangement into the 1890s. I'm eager for Richard's own assessment if he judges it appropriate to offer.

----------


## onthefiddle

I apologise! I didn't realise that the seller is such a knowledgable fellow. However this instrument is identical to my own, including the rather distinctively rectangular bridge that I had previously been unsure of the originality of. However all three instruments have carried it.

I have taken the tailpiece off of my instrument. My initial reaction was excitement, which quickly faded as I realised that what I had assumed were holes for hitchpins are in fact small dished areas to accomodate the inner ends of the rivets on the tailpiece. This has made me wonder exactly when such tailpieces were introduced, though unless there are definite dated examples we may never know for sure.

The head on both my own and the previous example is scarf jointed to the neck. I think I might be able to just about make out the same joint on Richard's instrument when zooming in, but that would definitely need to be confirmed.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that there was anything at all wrong with this instrument. It is certainly in fantastic condition, as I said, and if the pegs are replacements they are of good quality (probably handmade) and professionally fitted.

I would certainly be fascinated to hear anything more that you know of these instruments Richard.

Jon

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## Jim Garber

This Martin Style 4 just came on eBay. The seller thinks that the pearl border is unoriginal, but it is possible that some pearl was just poorly replaced. I asked for more pics and serial number. It has a simpler pickguard than some I have seen so it might be a later one. or maybe it is _possibly_ a style 3 that someone added a pearl border. Hard to tell but harder to imagine that someone might do that.

Looks like it might have been around the bend some but if it doesn't go too high might be a good one for someone looking. (I am not BTW).

Jim

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## guitharsis

The Martin Style 4 is sure a pretty mandolin, Jim. 

The doubletop Ceccherini you're interested in is awesome! #Good luck; hope you get it.

Doreen

----------


## Eugene

I wish this guy had more images of the Martin. #The bridge with inset saddle is typical to early Martin mandolins. #The pearl binding really doesn't look like Martin's work to me and looks pretty coarse. #Style 4 mandolins and above should have a bound fingerboard (it doesn't look like there is binding missing) and 30 ribs; however, style 4 and above are also the models that should carry pearl tuning buttons. #I can't see enough of the back to estimate a rib count, but they don't quite look fine enough for 30. #I don't know what to think of this thing yet.

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## Martin Jonas

There are a lot of Stridentes out there at the moment, going for not much money. I had already mentioned this one a few posts up; it went for £54, which seems a good price to me, although I have a suspicion from one of the photos that the action might be a bit high. The same Japanese buyer also won this one for £87. Although it doesn't say so in the listing (foolishly), this is also a Stridente, as one can just make out from the fragment of the label visible through the soundhole. No way of evaluating the action on this one, as there is no side-on view, but what is visible looks fine, and there is an intriguing Ranieri plectrum included which suggests that the previous owner knew what he was doing. A couple of hours before the end, this one was at only £40, and I put in a speculative bid to cherry-pick it if nobody else did; however, it did get up to a somewhat more sensible price right at the end.

In stark contrast to these nice Stridentes goign cheap, the de Meglio that I had already mentioned above has found a bidder at the reserve price of £250. It does look nice enough, but similar de Meglios have been going much cheaper recently.

Finally, this one is difficult to assess without better photos, but according to added reply at the bottom, the label says "PREMIATO,?ICHELLE ?ARANO, ALLIEVO DI VINACCIA, FABRICANTE,DISLEMA DE MEGLIO,ARMONICA NAPOLI,VICO CONSIGLIO 22", which is a bit odd. If it is a Vinaccia pupil, why does the name "de Meglio" also appear? It certainly isn't one of the usual de Meglio clones. The scratchplate looks more American than anything, I'd say. A nicer case than normal, but the reference to a split in the neck and a missing peg (on headstock or tailpiece?) probably rules it out of serious consideration anyway.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> Finally, this one is difficult to assess without better photos, but according to added reply at the bottom, the label says "PREMIATO,?ICHELLE ?ARANO, ALLIEVO DI VINACCIA, FABRICANTE,DISLEMA DE MEGLIO,ARMONICA NAPOLI,VICO CONSIGLIO 22"


I have some photos of one with a similarly-shaped scratchplate, pearl border and rosette that was labelled Michele Arano, Napoli.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

I got some photos of the Martin from the seller. It looks worse than I thought. He also thought the pearl border was unoriginal.

Looks like a "converted" style 3. The rosette looks right, I think...

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

This entry-level German bowlback in the Roman style may be worthwhile for somebody looking for a less delicate instrument than most vintage ones at a good price. The Buy It Now is $199 and with 9 hours to go, there's no taker at the starting bid of $95. It probably isn't a very exciting instrument, but looks like a sturdy player. Nice maple bowl and spectacular bearclaw in that spruce top. 

Plus yet another Stridente.

Martin

----------


## margora

There is what appears to be quite a nice Embergher at Mandolin Brothers on Staten Island, www.mandoweb.com. $3,500, many ribs.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Margora,

That´s indeed a very nice and rare Tipo N. 5 1926 Luigi Embergher! 

For a quick look and comparisment with the other soloist models of the Embergher atelier you can visit the "Mandolino per concertista e solista" page at my Embergher website.

The main difference with the Tipo N. 5-bis is of course #the flat and guitar-like headstock of the N. 5.


Thanks again for pointing out this wonderful instrument to us!


Greetings, 

Alex

----------


## Martin Jonas

On recently quoted prices, $3500 is quite good for a N.5 in fine condition, I would have thought. Even the student model Emberghers got well over half of that on Ebay recently, and buying from Mandolin Brothers means one has much less uncertainty about the actual condition.

Martin

----------


## Embergher

Small correction: #It's a 'Model' N°5, the word 'Tipo' was only used for the study mandolins: 'Types'A and B.
The Roman capping is the 'only' difference between a 5 and a 5bis.

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Martinjonas,


You are quite right; the price is very modest for this very Tipo N. 5.

Greeetings, 

Alex

----------


## trebleclef528

A slightly over the top stridente by the inlay artist

----------


## guitharsis

That's the first Stridente I've seen that is more ornate than mine. Was beginning to wonder if mine was so unusual. This one surpasses mine in decor though - price too!
Doreen

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## Jim Garber

> That's the first Stridente I've seen that is more ornate than mine. #Was beginning to wonder if mine was so unusual. #This one surpasses mine in decor though - price too!
> Doreen


I am not so sure that that ornamentation is original. Mr. Tsai calls himself "the inlaid artist" after all and is known for his way-over-the-top ornamentation. 

That tailpiece is one of his own also. The bridge position on this one is pretty strange being way below the cant. I have a feeling that that is not right either.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> You are quite right; the price is very modest for this very Tipo N. 5.


Shhhhhh... don't tell them. Mandolin Brothers is one of the top dealers who set the prices for mandolins. 

I may have to make a pilgrimage down there soon to visit this one. A two-hour drive for me.

Jim

----------


## Embergher

Indeed Jim, that bridge is certainly at the wrong side of the crank; It does improve the very high action a bit (possibly caused by a bent neck), but it's still the wrong place to put the bridge; it can't work for the sound nor for the intonation.

----------


## Eugene

> Shhhhhh... don't tell them. Mandolin Brothers is one of the top dealers who set the prices for mandolins.


...But even the better American music shops seem to have little to no understanding of the market for high-end Italian mandolins or of quality bowlbacked mandolins in general.

----------


## Bob A

Don't get too excited over the Embergher - it's on hold for someone in Belgium, so I've been told. (I saw the ad Saturday nite, and got the news Monday morning). Still, it may be available for viewing and picking, though the ad does mention strange things about the nut and bridge.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Don't get too excited over the Embergher - it's on hold for someone in Belgium, so I've been told.


So... who do we know in Belgium that is getting this gem?

Further, who is selling this... we probably know that person as well. It is a small mandolin world.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

This might be of interest to some. You'll have to call or email for maker info etc, but it's lost in a sea of bluegrass instruments. A sleeper?

----------


## Jim Garber

Bob: 
I am sure I inquired about that mandolin on Harry West's site a couple of years ago. No label or indication of maker. Any clues?

Here is what the back looks like. Nice carving on it.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Hard to believe it's still available, given the level of craftsmanship. Still, sound and playability are the driving intangibles, and they're hard to judge from a photo or a paragraph.

----------


## Jim Garber

Harry is a collector from way back. Evidentally what he has on his site is only a fraction of what he actually has. I don't think he really cares is he sells some things. 

He is also not much on technology. I think his wife set up the site. If you are interestted you should call him. He does like to talk. I spokt to him some time ago about a Vega for a friend in Italy.

Hard to tell from the small photos but it looks like the part of that headstock is broken or else missing a small piece.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> I may try to get the doubletop Ceccherini that just came on eBay UK.


Oh well... got sniped by not one but two bidders. This seems to be the going rate for Ceccherinis these days, about £400.

Auction was here.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

That is a pity. It looked to be in really nice condition. As Jim said, the last two comparable Ceccherinis that came up went for much the same money; mine was £400 and is virtually identical to this one. Still, I think I got a very good deal, and I think so did the winner of this auction if it is in as good condition as it looks.

Very international field of bidders here: the winner is from Australia and the other bidders were from Finland and Italy, plus Jim from the US.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

I guess that this one is the mandolin equivalent of those German "guitar-lutes".

Jim

----------


## Embergher

> I guess that this one is the mandolin equivalent of those German "guitar-lutes".
> Jim


Yes indeed. It doesn't look very healty though, with the tension of 8 steel strings on that bridge ... I wonder if it wasn't meant to be strung with nylon strings.

----------


## Jim Garber

I would think that nylon/gut strings would make sense more than what the seller says: "Ball end strings recommended (Adamas i.e.)."

Jim

----------


## onthefiddle

A nice looking Vinaccia with fluted ribs has come up for sale on eBay France.
If I was richer at the moment I would be very tempted, as it is I'll just watch to see what this goes up to.  

Jon

----------


## Martin Jonas

The anonymnous old French bowl sold by Richard Walz went for 352 Euro. I was considering to bid when it was still at 150 Euro with three hours to go, but it went to a more realistic level in the end. Not a bad price, still, for a fully-restored and set-up instrument out of the hands of a professional player.

In contrast, the market now really seems saturated with entry-level Stridentes, which keep flooding onto Ebay UK. The last one looked in pretty decent condition, but only fetched £44. Here is another one, this time with an unbroken family record of posession from new and said to have been unplayed since 1912 (so at least no chance of having been ruined by modern strings).

Another one that ended pretty cheap for a Vinaccia pupil (presumably because of its uncertain condition) is the Michele Arano, at £51.

I'm rather intrigued by this one. No indication of maker, and the bridge is in the wrong position as well as looking non-original, but what an intriguing figure in the wood of the bowl.

Finally, I see that dave17120 has put the de Meglio clone that he has been restoring (see the discussion and photos here) up for sale.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Here in the classifieds, someone is wanting to trade a Pandini fro a Knorr or Seiffert. Ad# 13415

Jim

----------


## Embergher

I don't have a Seiffert or Knorr mandolin (I'm allergic to them ) , but if he had a nice Embergher to trade, I'd try to find him one.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I don't have a Seiffert or Knorr mandolin (I'm allergic to them ) , but if he had a nice Embergher to trade, I'd try to find him one.


Ralf... you need to leave a few Emberghers for the those of us who don't have one. You _can't_ have them all! 

I have played a Knorr and they are nice instruments but I would keep my Pandini and get an Embergher, ifthere are any left.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

In a continuing series of my getting sniped on Italian bowlbacks:

I lost out on this Barnes & Mullins. It looks like they were also importers of deMeglio mandolins.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Dang, Jim, you need a stopwatch. I always punch the buy button about 10 seconds out.

On the other hand, do you really need another "restorable" mandolin? 

I have 3 or 4 that need varying degrees of work, and it may take the rest of my life getting it done. And the h*ll of it is, when all is done, I don't know that I'd be keeping any of them; but given the torments I've been thru, I've determined that any instrument I put up for sale will be in playable condition, with no luthiery needed.

Anyone inqured about the Cerrone/Embergher 5b in the classifieds? I emailed a question about the price, but rec'd no reply - a bad sign, indicating that if you have to ask, you can't afford it, perhaps?

----------


## Embergher

> Anyone inqured about the Cerrone/Embergher 5b in the classifieds? I emailed a question about the price, but rec'd no reply - a bad sign, indicating that if you have to ask, you can't afford it, perhaps?


It's a nice mandolin, but something happened to the inlay at the soundhole and the scratchplate. The back seems to have had some problems and the first position point has been replaced. The dark varnish on the table does look a bit suspicious as well. The rather heavy bridge would have been made by Calace (and should be replaced by a nice copy of an Embergher bridge if you ask me). It's been on Marco's website for some time now. I've never asked the price, I'm sure it'll be expensive.... well, that's what they usually are nowadays. Anyway, no one can decide in your place what you can or can't afford, it would be only normal to get an answer to your question.

----------


## Jim Garber

I received an email about this Cerrone in January. here is what Marco said:



> yes it present some repairs maded surely by Raffaele Calace a lot of years ago; I can say this because the bridge is a Calace Bridge and because on the top near the bridge there are the classic sign that Calace do in him mandolin.
> 
> The repairs reguarding a crack on the back, the bridge as I said and the Rosa (??? sorry for my english but I think that with the word ROSA you understand me....)
> 
> However mandolin is now in perfect condition and it ha a marvellous sound and a very fantastic fingerboard.
> 
> Economic request is 10.000 Euro.


It is possible that the price may have gone down somewhat since then. I guess Cerrone mandolins are quite nice but I would think that that price would be for a nice, pristine 5 bis Embergher, not a repaired Cerrone. 

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> the first position point has been replaced.


Ralf:
I understand the other comments, but what is a first position point? Do you mean the inlay at the first fret?

Jim

----------


## Embergher

> Originally Posted by  (Embergher @ Mar. 24 2005, 21:35)
> 
> the first position point has been replaced.
> 
> 
> Ralf:
> I understand the other comments, but what is a first position point? Do you mean the inlay at the first fret?
> 
> Jim


Jim, 
I mean the mother-of-pearl inlay. In this case the first position point is at the 5th fret. 
It is not the right shape, it should have been a flower with 5 leaves, a bit larger than the one at the 7th fret, as on this Cerrone mandolin:



However, this mandolin may be considered a 'real Embergher', as many other 5b mandolins with an Embergher label and signature were also made by Cerrone, or other people of the workshop. These 5b mandolins are all top quality instruments. 
Of course, 10000 EUR seems too much for this mandolin, even if it were in good condition. At an acceptable price, it wouldn't have been for sale anymore.

----------


## Jim Garber

Any clue to the high price -- for an American mandolin -- for this mandoilin, marked  RH Macy, Varsity? I would thuink that some equally fancy Vegas would not go as high on eBay.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is, what looks like to me, an Embergher clone that is marked Vinaccia. 

Jim

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## Eugene

> Any clue to the high price -- for an American mandolin -- for this mandoilin, marked  RH Macy, Varsity? I would thuink that some equally fancy Vegas would not go as high on eBay.


It's a fickle market, eh? It must be that the level of decor and evidently excellent condition is hypnotic to some. This almost certainly is a very late 19th-c. Lyon & Healy product.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Here is, what looks like to me, an Embergher clone that is marked Vinaccia.


It says 1929, which is comfortably later than any other Vinaccia I've seen. Does anybody know when the workshop went out of business? I've also never seen a Vinaccia brand on the soundboard. There's no photo of the label, but the brand incorporates the crest that can be seen on earlier Vinaccia labels. A strange bird, this one. Did Vinaccia try to compete with the Roman workshops in the 1920s?

Martin

----------


## onthefiddle

Regarding the highly priced Washburn: my maths may be out, but doesn't '12th.fret 5/32" from string to board' = 4.0mm? Highly priced indeed!

Regarding the late Fratelli Vinaccia, the instrument pictured below is described as "F. LLI VINACCIA fu P. LE & Co. ANNO 1926 NAPOLI" at this site. This one looks much more like a Calace to me. 
Were the final actively making generation of the Vinaccia family making copies? Or had the name been sold on, perhaps being used on the higher end instruments from a large manufacturer?

Jon

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## Jim Garber

> A nice looking Vinaccia with fluted ribs has come up for sale on eBay France.


I just noticed the tailpiece on this one:


Nice. This one will go for big bucks...er... euros.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

This mandolin by Mario Casella is sold already but aside from the over the top ornateness, I love the Romulus and Remus theme on the pickguard.



Jim

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## Eugene

Consarn it! I would have bought the Casella at that price. The whole "founding of Rome" theme (from somewhere on Sicily?) is really groovy. I really need to find the time to rekindle my eBay addiction.

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## Jim Garber

1903 Martin Style 2 for sale. I found the ad on Mugwumps and the seller says $850 firm -- who knows how long it has been for sale tho. It has a nasty looking crack in the headstock, but otherwise sounds like it might be okay. 

For those looking for such a thing.

Jim

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## Eugene

The bridge is a grossly simplified replacement and the tailpiece cover is missing, but it does look pretty good. I think $850 is a little steep for lacking the missing components.

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jim, Martinjonas and others,

Yes, probably because of the success of Maldura, De Santis and Embergher with their Roman mandolin design, the Vinaccia brothers also made instruments of the Mandolin family in that style. I have one myself and seen several of these Vinaccia mandolins and mandolas made in this style. All fine instruments by the way. 

Personally I would prefer to call them Vinaccias with characteristics of the Modern Roman mandolin type (or: a Modern Roman mandolin by Vinaccia).

Perhaps interesting to know is that in my research I have also encountered several Raffaele Sr. Calace mandolins that are build in this celebrated Roman style. On the other end I must say that I jet have to find the first Neapolitan mandolin build by the Roman luthiers that I have just mentioned here.

And Onthefiddle; this is not such a good photo to say something about the Vinaccia (from which atelier this particular instrument comes) high-end Modern Neapolitan soloist mandolin.
Indeed at first sight it is similar to the ones of the Calace workshop of that time, but with a closer look at the back and design of the bowl and strutting of the soundtable there are quite some remarkable differences. 

An eye catching difference of this Vinaccia mandolin model is the sculpted headstock. Often terminating in a woman´s or a men´s head although a lion or a scroll also is seen.
In my opinion these Vinaccia mandolins belong to the very best Modern Neapolitan mandolin examples there are.

Here is a better photo(©) of such a Gaetano Vinaccia soloist mandolin.


Best,

Alex

----------


## onthefiddle

Hi Alex,

Thanks for your much clearer photograph. Prior to the instrument that is currently on eBay the picture I posted is the only one I had seen of a very late Vinaccia. I had posted it previously, in the thread that Jim started on what became of the Vinaccia's, and had thought then that it showed some Calace influence.

Do you know much more of the late Vinaccia workshop? The output of the workshop seems to have been reduced, judging from the surviving instruments, and perhaps more concentrated at the upper end of the range. 

Did the Vinaccia family feel the competition from the Embergher and Calace workshops strongly? They certainly seem to have absorbed some influence from both workshops. Of course I can see nothing of the barring of the soundboard, and indeed nothing of the back from these photographs.

Jon

----------


## Jim Garber

One by Salvatore (?) Calace. Nice and gaudy pearl fretboard.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Top of the line Washburn Model 1125, I believe.

Jim

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## Eugene

> Top of the line Washburn Model 1125, I believe.


I like it!

----------


## keef

Hey Eugene - here's a pre L&H Regal:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....57&rd=1

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

Come up for sale at Ebay Italy: a fine looking Embergher No.3 Orchestra model (1932). 

Interesting to see what it does.

Click here to see the Ebay site where the auction is going on.


Best, 

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

I like that x-ray pic:


Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim, 

Yes, that is great to see and a good sign for us mandolin enthousiasts because it shows that more and more the value and interest of our instrument is recognized!

Best, Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

Yes, Alex:
On one hand it is good for all of us. On the other hand is it not good for those of us who would like to pown one of these treasures.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

I agree of course with you Jim, it´s great to find a wonderful high-end labelled mandolin for a cheap price! 

But I also feel that there sould be more distance - so to speak - between the mandolin - nice instruments and really good (or better pointed out) the best instruments in our field. 

I think that with these high-end instruments - whether it is a Vinaccia, Calace, Embergher or another really good instrument - a modern mandolinist get´s the best recognition of his colleague musicians. 
People should be aware that ´we´ also have great makers and that their instruments are precious.

Up to now the mandolin in the concertworld is still a rarety and not particulary recognized as a serious instrument. There is still a lot to work for......


What I am also trying to say is that I would be happiest that a mandolin like this Embergher should go to an excellent player. Only than it will be heard at it´s best and only than modern makers will eventually ´hear´ why they are so exceptional.

Of course this ´looks´ like it has nothing to do with the price of an instrument. But personally I think that that is a wrong assumption.


Greetings, 

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

Years ago I recall there was an article in the New York Times about some aspiring student violinist who went to a Christies auction to find himself a quality violin. I think he was outbid by a few of the dealers who would then turn around and sell them to collectors or to museums. 

On one hand the instruments are recognized as to their worth in the marketplace, but the marketplace is not only musicians. I am quite happy that an up-and-coming musicians like Sebastiaan has acquired a fine Embergher, but what about the Sebastiaans of the future, when the orchestra models start going for 10.000?

I know tit is out of our control but I also see your point.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Yes, well this particular No.3 Embergher is the highest Orchestra model (apart from the No.4, the model I see more as an Artistic model with it´s tortoiseshell neck and head fineer etc.) and perhaps with it´s 29-fret fingerboard it could also be seen as an Embergher model for soloists. The model just below the No.5 and 5-bis.

So I think it will not be long befor 10.000 will be paid for this high-end Orchestra mandolin and other Embergher soloist mandolins. As you know that amount is already asked for the Embergher 5-bis model. 

Hopefully Jim, at the time the lower Orchestra models reach that price, modern makers like Hendrik van den Broek and Sebastiaan Nuñez will have proven to make excellent mandolins (for soloists). Instruments that come close or even equal those made by the finest Italian luthiers.

I think that´s what we have to aim for in the near future. 

And in this respect I admire what Richard has accomplished already with his working together with Daniel Larson. Very nice work for what I have seen sofar! 


Best, Alex

----------


## Alex Timmerman

I should point out that Hendrik van den Broek and Sebastiaan Nuñez are - apart from each other - studying the instruments of the Embergher atelier to eventually work in that style and make Modern Roman mandolins themselves.

Of course Carlo Cecconi, Marco Onorati´s luthier and associate can perhaps be mentioned here also. He is also working towards copying the Modern Roman mandolin model as made by Embergher. I have seen (not heard jet) a very nice Giovanni De Santis copy by him and that looks very promissing.


As for the Modern Neapolitan mandolin; here we see an on-going tradition through i.e. the Calace firm and excellent makers like Pandini and for instance Gabrielli.


Perhaps the future isn´t that cloudy after all...


Best, 

Alex # #

----------


## Bob A

Woof. Six thousand dollars for an opening bid! Is this truly indicative of market prices, or is the seller being optimistic? I paid about half that for my 1963 Pecoraro style 5. (Prior to ~1962, Pecoraro was making the same instrument for the Embergher shop).

When you say 10000 Euros is being "asked" for 5-bis, does that indicate that they are in fact changing hands at that level?

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is a new variation on the theme of "pupils of Vinaccia": the label in this very basic bowl reads "Assoziazione degli allievi della casa Fratelli Vinaccia", with a design that makes only "Fratelli Vinaccia" jump out (and indeed that is what the Ebay seller advertises it as). #I think I would want my Vinaccia pupils to be slightly less anonymous than that...

Here is another one of those aluminium bowls, and here yet another Stridente with a replacement bridge. This one isn't a bowl, and almost certainly isn't of note, but is a curio for followers of early f-hole designs, German in this case. Finally, this one is a bowl, but not a mandolin, but rather a misdescribed (and rather funky looking) oud.

Martin

----------


## Arto

The last one is fun... "Arabic type of mandolin"... #

----------


## pklima

Here's a liuto... looks like a student model but the seller doesn't appear to quite know what it is and the reserve may be low.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....me=WDVW

----------


## Jim Garber

After a series of near-misses on eBay in quest of my acquisition of an Italian bowlback, I finally was able to scoop those snipers and netted this beauty of the Roman maker, Uopi Cucchioni. 

Jim

----------


## onthefiddle

Despite offering my idea gratis to him, I've never convinced my Double Bass making friend to try out my idea of an inflatable travel Bass. I'm glad to see that this has concept has passed through the mind of at least one other serious minded person (indeed such a renowned maker) - perhaps this will give my idea the extra weight which will persuade my friend to try it.

I particularly like the concept of an inflatable soundpost, with it's own seperate valve.

This could be the answer to travelling with an Octobass, if anyone wants to take it up!

Jon

----------


## Jim Garber

This particular instrument is well-suited for Air on a G string.

Jim

----------


## etbarbaric

Wow Jim... that baby would be ideal for early music. Ain't that one of those ButtSacks?

Hmmm... it is April 1... I suppose one should expect this sort of thing...

----------


## trebleclef528

Ha Ha nice one Jim ............. some of the sounds that come from one or two of our orchestra players probably sound like a whooppee cushion mandolin (but don't tell them I said that)
Regards to all,
Ian
(and at last the sun has appeared in Scotland!)

----------


## Alex Timmerman

And a Calace again...

Cheers,

Alex

----------


## onthefiddle

Here is another older style Nineteenth Century Mandolin, that was originally fitted with pegs. It appears to have come from the same workshop as my own. Most of these seem to be showing up in the UK, though as far as I am aware there were no English Luthiers making Mandolins at the time these were made, so it still looks likely that they were imported from Mirecourt.

Jon

----------


## Martin Jonas

All of these recent Ebay examples, and presumably also yours, are really similar to the one on the Sinier de Ridder site, which they describe as "Romantic mandolin, copy of a neapolitan mandolin, anonymous, Mirecourt (France) circa 1850. During the 19th century, because an important ask, the workshops of Mirecourt made with a great craftsmanship, many instruments, guitars, mandolins, violins, etc... as copy of old masters, or famous schools." That would suggest that you're indeed right.

Martin

----------


## onthefiddle

The example on the Sinier de Ridder site is similair to my own and this latest instrument on eBay, however it is even more like Eugene's Mandolin. There is another nearly identical example in the V&A, which is labelled Clement Eulry, Mirecourt.

Jon

----------


## Jim Garber

Okay, which of you Embergher eaters made an offer for this 5-bis that the seller could not refuse? Or was it the Italian contingent. In that case, I await to see it on one of their sites.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim,

Yes, a beautiful and - because of it´s pallisander wood bowl - quite rare mandolin. 

After it´ll be cleaned and taken care for, I´m sure this will be a great instrument. Very nice!


Best, 

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

So, Alex, did you get it? I certainly hope so -- it would be nice to keep it in the "family". And are the palisander ones that much more rare than the maple?

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

No Jim, it wasn´t me. But I like how it looks very much. Like you I hope it will find it´s way into the "family" so to speak. And preferably to a talented player who hasn´t got one yet.

Judging to the many maple- and the few pallisander backs I have found sofar, I think maple was indeed the prefered choise. 


Greetings,

Alex

----------


## etbarbaric

Rosewood may indeed be rarer in an Embergher, but for my money, there is nothing like those matched flamey maple backs! But then, I've always been a sucker for pretty figured wood, especially maple. Unlike Richard, I am unable to help myself in the presence of both flames and flutes! :-)

Eric

----------


## Jim Garber

Mike Schroeder is still selling this 1906 Calace. This seems to be the same mandolin that still appears on the William Petit site. Why do dealers like that bother with having sites when almost everything is sold. (rant, rant!)

In any case, Mike's looks like a nice one. I wish I had a chance to play it at CMSA but there wasn't time and he was heading back home as I got there.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is another interesting one in the classifieds. A early tenor mandola by Joseph Bohmann.

Jim

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## Arto

"Here is another interesting one in the classifieds. A early tenor mandola by Joseph Bohmann."

Interesting bridge location. Same principle as with Vegas? Or just "compensated for age and wear"? #

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## Jim Garber

I think this may call for someone more familiar with this maker... Eugene?

I saw this one and may even have plunked it a little at CMSA. I don;t recall much tho.

Jim

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## Eugene

> Interesting bridge location. Same principle as with Vegas? Or just "compensated for age and wear"? #


The latter. #The Bohmann pieces I've encountered have featured the paradoxical combination of a very delicate construction that doesn't seem to wear too well into the future (almost every one I've seen is riddled with top cracks) and a rather coarse, workmanlike approach to ornament.

----------


## Eugene

PS: I think 1860s as cited by the seller and Sparks is too early for Bohmann's operation. #Holmes lists him as launching his shop in 1876, which seems to keep more in line with any instruments I've seen. #His guitars were bizarre.

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## Jim Garber

He was clearly an experimenter and very fond of sympathetic strings and the like. I think I have seen a few violins with a curious set of metal pins that were supposed to vibrate with the strings.

Jim

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## Jonathan Rudie

Jim,
I am impressed with your bowlback mando for sale finds world over. Do any Bowlbacks for sale on the internet ever slip past your eyes? 

Jonathan R.

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## Jim Garber

Yes, Jonathan, many sales do. I just use the eBay search system which is not infallable.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

This one has a nice reserve...................................


Best, 

Alex

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi again,

Or this one............

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## Eugene

Errr...I think the seller in Texas has over estimated the value of such things.

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## Jim Garber

On the other hand, I am not so sure that I trust the NJ seller either, esp with the private bidder stuff. Who knows what he/she has for a reserve -- could be $25,000.

Jim

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## onthefiddle

Here's a Calace and here's an Embergher, both in Germany.

Jon

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## Jim Garber

The Calace is a mandola in the Euro-sense-- tuned one octave below the mandolin. The Embergher is a studio tipo A I believe the no-frills student model. I looked and bid low and figured it will go way beyond me. We will see.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is an interesting French mandolin by Bocari made in Saint Etienne. What is esp interesting to me is that has only the alternating ribs fluted. I think that the fluted ribs might be palisander/rosewood, tho they could also be just stained maple.

Jim

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## onthefiddle

> What is esp interesting to me is that has only the alternating ribs fluted. I think that the fluted ribs might be palisander/rosewood, tho they could also be just stained maple.


Looking at the photograph of the back, taken from the tailpiece end of the instrument, I think the alternated fluting effect may be an optical illusion. The fluting is shallower and less crisp than often seen, which may partially account for this effect. It is impossible to determine for certain whether the darker ribs are rosewood or not from these photographs, but they look quite likely to be so. It looks like a good, though not exceptional, instrument.

The older nineteenth century Mandolin is looking like it might go quite cheaply. The main concern is the state of it's neck, which isn't clear from the photos. It could be setup fairly inexpensively.

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## Jim Garber

Yes, onthefiddle, I think you are right. I think the separators between the ribs are actually thicker than on normal mandolins. 

Jim

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## Bob A

Bocari looks interesting - tuners a little rough. I may bid, unless someone here is chasing it?

The Orchestra model Embergher found no bidders willing to cough up 4500 euros. The student model Embergher looks like it was dipped into a tank of varnish, or something. Even the fingerboard gleams thickly.

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## onthefiddle

I agree with you about the Embergher Orchestra model Bob. Though it's hard to be certain from the small photos, it does look like it has been overvarnished. 

The other area that I'm a little concerned about is the back. The light coloured areas over certain joints may possibly have occurred where open joints were glued out of register, and then scraped level. Of course this may also have been caused by them being glued out of level, and then wear having occurred, but if it has been recently overvarnished then this is perhaps less likely. It doesn't look like a normal wear pattern anyway.

Jon

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## Martin Jonas

I got just outbid on two bowlbacks yesterday: the early French one and the 1985 Calace mandola.

I wasn't really going seriously for either, but they were staying so low that I thought I might try to cherrypick them. In the end, both went for just a little bit more than I was willing to spend on an instrument I don't really need, but still very good deals.  At £37, the French one would probably be worth it for the curiosity value alone, even if having to source or make new pegs, bridge and suitable mixed strings would take some time, money and effort to make it playable. I'm really intrigued why so many virtually identical unlabelled examples of this type have come up recently, and wonder just how many were made. I bid $753 on the Calace and was still below the reserve. I might have gone the other $46 if I'd known how close I was to the reserve; as it was, somebody else did and got a Calace mandola (albeit not from the glory days) for a bargain price.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Welcome, Martin to the Loyal Brotherhood of Snipees. I have certainly been inthe same place. I think, tho, if you really want something and have the buck to back it up... sometimes you can do it.

Jim

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## David M.

This is by no means a "bowlback of note", but my first bowlback and it was free. Hope it's OK to post it here in this tread. My wife's grandma gave it to me. Strung it last night and it held together. Montgomery Ward "Victor". Any other info about it would be appreciated. For intonation the bridge works best just behind or on top of the crease in the top. Is this right?

One of the G tuner gears binds up, so I can't get that G string up to pitch. What can I do about that? I may need a new set of tuners, but how difficult is that to find?

After stringing my Weber F and other F's for so long, this little thing is a pain to string. But it's fun to have a new, free mandolin.

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## Martin Jonas

Welcome to the Order of the Bowl! First of all, and most importantly, you must only use extra light strings: the strings you would use on your Weber are likely to destroy the bowlback in short order. Details are in this recent thread, and the one linked therein.

The bridge would originally have been a few millimetres on the soundhole side of the cant, and you should keep it ahead of the cant if you can. It is quite common for the bridge to have to creep back on old bowlbacks as a result of structural changes (top sinkage or neck angle changes in particular), and having the bridge behind the cant is usually a good sign of structural problem which may need resolving.

If you have open tuners, you may well be able to find modern ones that match your spacing; if you have closed ones, probably not. Having some of the tuners bind is not necessarily irreversible, though, and you may well find that a small amount of penetrating lubrication gets it loose again. I usually use minute amounts of WD40 on closed tuners, which works fine, although others prefer less smelly lubricants.

When you have it strung up, you will probably find that it responds best to different picks and a different attack from the Weber; experimenting with this is fun!

Martin

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## David M.

Thanks. Yeah, it's got open gear tuners. I installed the dolce Dogal Calace strings last night which led me to find the gear issue. I'll also move the bridge forward some which will help some of the buzzing sounds from the low action. Right now the E strings sound like a banjo. Weird tone. The one G that works has a low rumble to it.

It is fun messing with these things. I've set up several old fiddles and the anticipation in the process of hearing what kind of tone emerges is great.

Any idea when this could have been made? There is a # stamped inside on the neck block if that would help.

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## Neil Gladd

Martin, I was going to snipe the early French mandolin at a much higher price than it went for, but got called away from my desk for a few minutes and missed it! Probably just as well, I already have 3 mandolins that need work...

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## Jonathan Rudie

Hi David,

The Dogals take some time to break in, settle down and mellow. Until that time they can sound overly harsh and perhaps "banjo like". The more they are played the quicker the strings will settle down and the tone improve.

----------


## Eugene

> Any idea when this could have been made? #There is a # stamped inside on the neck block if that would help.


I am almost certain that this was made by Chicago's Lyon & Healy (L&H), probably around or a little after 1915. #There aren't many people in the world who can make sense out of L&H's serial scheme, and I'm not certain if it differed amongst their own various brands and commissioned pieces for other shops' house brands. #You might consider posting a few more shots here, David (this thread seems mostly text regarding stuff that has come available for sale). #With what type and color of material is the interior of the bowl lined?

...And finding replacement tuners that fit will almost certainly be problematic. #If the machines are not enclosed in a cover plate, you can't free up the g, and (in an act of blind luck) you don't happen to stumble across a plate of tuners that fits, you might consider filling the existing holes and redrilling the headstock to fit a readily available set. #If the action is too high by virtue of the bridge being repositioned, you might consider installing a fine shim under the fingerboard.

----------


## David M.

Thanks, Eugene. I'll post more pics there. I have one of the label and more details.

So far, I'm having a heckuva time keeping it tuned. Maybe strings stretching or maybe the mando moving from not being strung. Or, backdrive on the gears?

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## Jim Garber

> here's an Embergher


The Embergher Studio Tipo A went for 705, which I suppose is a decent price, even considering that it needs some work.

Jim

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## pklima

An American bowlback for the double-soundboard fans:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....me=WDVW

Will need restoration, though.

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## Bob A

The French Bocari, pretty little thing that it was, remained bidless at 420 euros. When I rec'd no reply from the seller, it seemed to me to be unbright to bid on an instrument that was1) 2000 miles away, 2) sold by someone with whom I might have no common language, 3) by a person who had only 1 feedback on ebay 4) who didn't trouble to answer an email. 

Too bad. But I was saved from myself.

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## etbarbaric

Hi Bob,

I made a similar call on the Bocari... in my case, having no money also helped make the decision.

Though... I must say, those alternating fluted ribs really almost made me loose my head... :-)

Eric

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## Martin Jonas

A Calace on Ebay Germany. The seller says that the hand-written year on the label is 1926. Personally, I think it looks more like 1962 on the photo of the label, but the photo isn't very clear and the seller has seen it in the flesh where the digits may be more unambiguous.

Martin

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## Embergher

> A Calace on Ebay Germany. #The seller says that the hand-written year on the label is 1926. #Personally, I think it looks more like 1962 on the photo of the label, but the photo isn't very clear and the seller has seen it in the flesh where the digits may be more unambiguous.


I can't read well the date of this mandolin, but it could be 1902 or maybe 1912; it certainly looks like an early one.
I know one of 1900 which looks almost exactly the same, except for the label: in 1900 the brothers Raffaele and Nicolo where still working together as "Frates Calace" with a handwritten "Fratelli Calace" signature on the label. Nicolo Calace emigrated about 1901, so we could expect the label to be changed about 1902.
The Calace mandolins I've seen from the 1920s look quite different. (another style, often round soundhole and an extended fingerboard)
If in good condition, these early Calaces often have a wonderful sound.

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## Jim Garber

Getting away from ebay for a moment... 

Bernunzio has this nice-looking no-name bowlback here. He says it looks like a Martin but I think it is closer to L&H. Any clues?

Also a very interesting bowlback mandola by Epiphone/Stathopoulos.

Jim

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## Eugene

> Bernunzio has this nice-looking no-name bowlback here. He says it looks like a Martin but I think it is closer to L&H. Any clues?
> 
> Also a very interesting bowlback mandola by Epiphone/Stathopoulos.


Not even remotely like Martin! ...And, in one of my quests for old hardware, Bernunzio once told me he used to have a substantial collection of Martin bowlbacks. The shame! The decor certainly looks L&H-like, but the profile doesn't look like their mature instruments. I guess it is similar to the instruments of the late 1880s-early 1890s.

There is a rather nice mandolin by Stathopoulos in MI's Starns Collection. I hope to measure and photograph it on my next visit.

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## Jim Garber

> There is a rather nice mandolin by Stathopoulos in MI's Starns Collection. #I hope to measure and photograph it on my next visit.
> 
> BTW I was mistaken... according to the Epi book the counder's name was Anastasio Stathopoulo (no "s"). The only bowlbacks pictured are a nice looking mapleback 1911 with a demeglio style pickguard and a 6 string guitar-lute with a fancy rosette. There is a also a patent he took out on a flatbttomed bowlback with a crooked neck set back like a lute.
> 
> Jim


Pardon my ignorance, Eugene.... what is MI and what is the Starns Collection. I assume there is no Web site or pics?

Jim

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## Eugene

MI is the postal abbreviation for Michigan, and this is The Stearns Collection. This past December, I began an effort to document all the mandolin kin they hold.

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## Eugene

> BTW I was mistaken... according to the Epi book the counder's name was Anastasio Stathopoulo (no "s"). The only bowlbacks pictured are a nice looking mapleback 1911 with a demeglio style pickguard and a 6 string guitar-lute with a fancy rosette. There is a also a patent he took out on a flatbttomed bowlback with a crooked neck set back like a lute.


Consarn it! And I cut-and-pasted your error without thought. The shame!

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## vkioulaphides

I have met luthiers in Athens who knew compatriot Stathopoulos personally; I did not inquire further  (It was a sweltering August day, I remember, and I had other mando-hunt on my mind...) All I know of him is his association with Epiphone; beyond that, my usual (and profound) ignorance.

The mandola looks good...

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## Bob A

The label in the Calace is from 1922 or later. 1922 is the first appearance of the "& figlio".

The Epi mandola at Bernunzio's is a restoration candidate. I don't recall how bad it was, just that it needed work to be playable.

Eric, maybe we should have bought in. I quiver over those ribs, myself. But discretion is the better part of actually getting an instrument, rather than a hole in tghe fiscal fabric.

I never saw Bernunzio's Martin collection, which was in my pre-bowlback days. He sat on it for quite a while, until he was able to come up with a style 7, at which point someone bought the whole collection (Tsumura?)

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## Jim Garber

> I never saw Bernunzio's Martin collection, which was in my pre-bowlback days. He sat on it for quite a while, until he was able to come up with a style 7, at which point someone bought the whole collection (Tsumura?)


If Tsumura bought it then likely it would be back on John's list, i would think. Wasn;t he selling -- or still is -- many of Tsumura's collection.

BTW Matt Umanov is another one who years ago collected Martin bowlbacks. I imagine he still has that collection.

Jim

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## bratsche

Hi everyone. So, ahem....

An interesting thing that happened very late last night as I was sitting, overtired from much work and over"mellowed" with beer, ogling newly listed mandos on eBay, was this.

I (very) briefly considered pretending I hadn't even seen it, and just going to bed, but began rationalizing that if I came back to look in the morning (er, a little _later_ in the morning), it would possibly be gone. I agonized over this dilemma for about, oh, 10 minutes, and decided it wasn't getting any earlier. So I sort of closed my eyes tightly (to think about it more, um, _carefully_ - yeah, that's right!), and when I opened them again, the next thing I remember was staring at a screen that said "You have bought this item." 

On the bad side, I didn't get any sleep due to the excitement, and on the good side, I will finally no longer be on the outside looking in on this exclusive "Order of the Bowl" y'all have going here. 

Um, was I the only one on the Cafe who saw this one, or what? (Please, someone tell me, assure me, that I done good! LOL)

I trust the experts will clue me in to the significance of the serial number and other interesting info. And who will have an extra set of strings to sell me, in the likely event that the concensus is that Thomastik lights are too heavy for this? 

soon-to-be bowlfully,

bratsche

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## Bob A

For too long have you been outside, looking in, my dear. Now you can pluck with the big dogs.

And yes, you got a good deal (assuming everything works as it ought. And even if not, it' still good. I think 4-500 is a reasonable price for a clean old Vega).

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## Jim Garber

Congratulations, bratsche. I also think you did very well. Off the top of my head, I think that this is a style 2.

Jim

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## Eugene

Very nice. I know you'll soon be lovin' your first _real_ mandolin, bratsche. It looks to be an excellent buy! I need to get back my eBay habit so I can snipe this stuff.

Flat-wound strings, like Thomastik, inherently carry more tension; I wouldn't use them long-term on ca. 1900 American bowlbacks. I would go for the Dogal RW-92b on this. I've liked the response of Lenzners on my Martin, but not on my Vegas. I believe the serial places its vintage in the 1910s.

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## Martin Jonas

I also think you did very well -- I don't know why the seller chose to offer a Buy-It-Now, but you got in there within 12 hours of the listing going up, so many potential buyers didn't manage to see it in time. Looks in lovely condition -- I hope it is as sound as it looks!

Martin

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## onthefiddle

Bratsche - your Vega is nearly the same as my own, which I am really happy with.  
I'm sure you'll be just as happy with yours!   

Jon

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## Jim Garber

I just checked on those two calace mandolins in the classified. One ad is gone and the other says that the mandolin is on hold. Each for $3500 -- did anyone here get these?

Also, Dale Ludwig, usually a carved top maker, has posted an interesting query on this thread.

Jim

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## John Bertotti

bratsche that vega looks sharp. I on the other hand love the Lenzners on mine. Although I did have to change picks to get the best (to me) tone. John

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## Martin Jonas

This entry-level Angara & d'Isanto looks plain, but nice.

And now for something completely different: this is probably the funkiest bowlback I've seen. The seller isn't sure what it is, but I'd call it an electric Greek bouzouki. Two humbuckers and a built-in graphic equalizer make a strange combination with tuning pegs and a carved headstock. Also, as there is no soundhole, presumably it's a _solid-body_ bowlback.

To help you recover from that shock, here's  a pretty fluted Zanoni sold by Ian, unfortunately with a bowed neck.

Martin

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## Bob A

We ought to take up a collection and buy the zouk for Victor. I can't recall seeing anything quite so over-the-top, without the aid of psychotropic assistance. (Better living thru chemistry, indeed).

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## Jim Garber

> We ought to take up a collection and buy the zouk for Victor.


Hey, wait a minute... I like Victor... I thought he was our friend...

Jim

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## bratsche

Bob, Jim, Euge-o-rama, Martin, Jon and John - thanks for the votes of confidence! I am full of eager anticipation. And I forgot to mention the most serendipitous part of all. You may have noticed in the auction that there was no seller's location mentioned. Well, as it turns out, this Vega is about 40 miles from me, and the seller is meeting me halfway on Wednesday to complete the transaction in a place that's about 10 minutes away from a rehearsal that I have right after we're to meet! So I'll have the mando in hand about 38 more hours from right now, and I won't have to pay the $25 shipping. 

bratsche

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## Matt Vuksinich

> I just checked on those two calace mandolins in the classified. One ad is gone and the other says that the mandolin is on hold. Each for $3500 -- did anyone here get these?
> 
> Also, Dale Ludwig, usually a carved top maker, has posted an interesting query on this thread.
> 
> Jim


Re the 1906 Calace: no, one of you regulars on this post didn't buy it--I did! I received it UPS on Friday, and it really IS a sweetheart, well worth the pricetag. And Michael Schroeder, the seller, was a pleasure to interact with, a true gentleman and a helluva nice guy.

I read this message board regularly, tho I've not previously responded--you folks are MUCH more knowledgable than I. I play mostly semi-classical and Italian/Spanish/German pop in 2 local mandolin orchestras and a 5 piece band. I have a couple real nice mandos, but I didn't have a concert-quality bowlback until now (my 1898 Vinaccia only has 18 frets, not to mention that my new Calace has much better tone).

To you "regular suspects" of this forum: thanks for taking the time to keep it alive--I suspect there's a lot of silent readers like me out there.

Matt in San Francisco

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## Martin Jonas

I've been following this 1923 Vinaccia over the last couple of days and thought I might cherrypick it when it was still lingering at 180 Euro four hours before the end, and then at 401 Euro ten minutes before the end. However, final price was 1210 Euro, a bid which the eventual winner placed five days earlier. Clearly, he was willing to top all-comers and who knows just how high he did actually bid it.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Matt:
Congratulations! I need to de-access a few items in order to afford one of these big three Italian jobs. I actually had a long email correspondence about that same mandolin last year but was not ready to take the plunge.

Did you work out some sort of approval deal with Michael, if you were not pleased with it? That is my main problem with these higher end mandolins. Unless I can actually play it in person or buy it in the US with relatively inexpensive and quick shipping, I must deal with overseas. And eBay can be quite scary these days esp overseas.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> I've been following this 1923 Vinaccia over the last couple of days


These can be so confusing with the various labels. I wasn't even completely sure that this was from the Vinaccia shop, tho it did not say "allieve" at least. Still that price seems pretty reasonable these days and, as far as I can tell, that mandolin looks like it is in extra fine condition.

Jim

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## Eugene

> ...So I'll have the mando in hand about 38 more hours from right now, and I won't have to pay the $25 shipping.


Bonus!

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## Martin Jonas

> These can be so confusing with the various labels. I wasn't even completely sure that this was from the Vinaccia shop, tho it did not say "allieve" at least. Still that price seems pretty reasonable these days and, as far as I can tell, that mandolin looks like it is in extra fine condition.


The label is indeed confusing because it's clearly a custom label for a particular reseller (shades of the Alban Voigt/Ceccherini connection), and I when I was mulling over whether I should get into the bidding, the absence of the normal identifiers, such as the word "Fratelli", a Vinaccia-clan first name, or the Vinaccia family crest was a concern. Another was the shape of the fretboard extension which seems strangely wide and inelegantly cutting across the a-string, and the fact that the fretboard looks to be rosewood not ebony. Still, I had resolved I'd jump on it for up to 600 Euro. Of course, it didn't stay anywhere in that range, so it became academic. It does indeed look in fine condition.

Martin

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## guitharsis

bratsche

Sorry this reply is late. Haven't been checking in lately.
Your Vega looks really nice and a nice deal too! You're picking it up tomorrow? Great! You'll have to let us know what your impressions are.

Doreen

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## Bob A

It's a pretty late example of a Vinaccia, Martin, and not a bad price for what it purports to be. 

Matt, congrats on the Calace. You'll have to join in the discussions, now you're properly equipped.

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## Dan K

Bratsche,

That really is amazing that you were able to swoop in to pick that auction up. I swear I have been watching ebay every day and looking for new listings and I didn't see it. If I had, I might have been the owner and not you.  

Congrats

Dan

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## Dan K

Actually, while I am online I would like to throw out a question. I am watching an auction for a mandolin with no name. It looks to be in good condition, but the bridge is sitting on the pickguard. That strikes me as kind of odd. Do you think that may be indicative of something bad or does the pickguard perhaps extend lower than is typical. This is the link here

Also, does anyone have any thoughts on who may have made it?

As always, I appreciate all the help and advice you folks offer.

Dan

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## Jim Garber

It is so hard to tell what the actual condition of these things are. Warped tops for instance often do not show up in photos. I would ask the seller to send you a photo showing the mandolin from the side and also ask him how high the strings are over the 12th fret. He may just not be all that savvy to begin with and may have placed the bridge in the wrong place. 

That one looks similar to a fancy no-name I own which you can see on this thread. I am referring to the one with the harp player on the pickguard and all the pearl. The headstock of the one on eBay actually sort of resembles the boatback one I pictured right after that pearly one. BNoth of those are no-names, tho there may be some link to Lyon & Healy... or not.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I wouldn't put too much attention to the present bridge placement; it's clearly wrong but easily enough adjusted as long as the neck is straight and there is no top sinkage. Apart from being in the wrong place, the bridge is also the wrong way around: the bone insert should be facing the headstock. The seller's ancestor may well have come to the US 150 years ago, but if so, he didn't bring that mandolin with him. This style of mandolin wasn't built any earlier than the 1880s, and considering its extension to the 20th fret probably after 1900.

No idea on the builder, but my feeling is American rather than Italian. As there are several folks here who are very knowledgeable on American bowlbacks, somebody may well be able to give you a better identification.

Martin

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## Eugene

Here's how I'd place my bets: undoubtedly American, almost certainly by Lyon & Healy of Chicago, and quite akin to the nicer of their American Conservatory brand. This mandolin is approximately as Italian as the Ottawa Nation.

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## Dan K

Thanks for the advice. I have asked the seller for a side photo. If all is well, this may be the one for me.

Dan

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## Martin Jonas

It looks a reasonable proposition to me. Be aware that placing the bridge in the right position will probably bring down the action by half a millimetre or more, so you needn't be alarmed if the action looks a bit high on side view. Of course, if it is above, say, three to four millimetres you're probably looking at a structural problem which you may or may not be able to compensate for by lowering the bridge. Be also aware that using a flash makes the tops of all of these old bowls look cleaner and more uniformly coloured in photos than they are in reality. That's no cause for concern -- the patina of a historical instrument can be very attractive -- but can be cause for a double-take when you open that box.

Martin

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## etbarbaric

I concur with Eugene. One additional bit... unless I miss my guess, the back of this instrument is likely made from a smaller number of ribs than it appears. I have a similar Washburn/L&H mando and its apparent 42 ribs are artfully carved from a smaller number of actual ribs. If you look at the back of this instrument you can see the the grain pattern seems to flow across sets of multiple ribs.

Not a detractor, in my view... just an interesting nit. Best of luck!

Eric

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## Dan K

Wow! Good eye. That is a very sneaky little illusion. Is it possible that the consistency across the staves would be the result of wear on the finish? For my part, I don't think I can really make out the grain. 

If there are, in fact, fewer staves, do you suppose that there are maybe half as many (one faux stave on each real one)? Or possible even fewer?  

Dan

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## Jim Garber

Well, Dan, you came to the right place! We are the crack team of bowlback detectives. I have discovered that what we are looking at is an American Conservatory style 607, at least that is what appears in my 1912-1913 Lyon & Healy catalog. Here is a lovely color plate of that mandolin. A scan of the description follows.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Her is the description from my 1912-13 catalog. It is curious that in a photocopy of a slightly earlier one, the same model is described as having 43 ribs. I have a feeling that the 52 is, like Eric notes, merely 26 divided artificially in two.

It is also interesting that the fretboard in the color plate does not have that slight extension as in reality.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Hey, these American bowlbacks are coming out of the woodwork...

Martin Style 1

Washburn Style 175

Jim

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## Dan K

You guys really are a bottomless source of information! They sure look almost identical. The only differences I see are that this mandolin has a small extension to the fretboard and the inlay on the pickguard is upside down (relative to the photo). 

The American conservatory mandolins seem to be well regarded by you folks . I don't know if this is an appropriate questions, but what would you say is a fair price to pay for this piece (assuming there are no structural defects)? 

The bidding starts at $199. 

Again, thanks for all your help. You guys are something else!

Dan

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## bratsche

Thanks, Doreen. 

Welcome, Matt! (um, that sounds funny!) and congratulations on your fine acquisition. Don't be a stranger!

And welcome aboard, Dan! Yes, this group here is a veritable fount of bowlback knowledge, isn't it? As to my snagging the Vega, I guess I got lucky. That happened to me one other time with a low priced buy-it-now on a Flatiron 1N mandola. Most of the time, though, I see things I like get bid up too high for me before the auction is over, which is rough because I don't like to bid before the end - actually, I prefer to snipe! LOL Good luck with this Lyon Healy/American Conservatory one, if it's in nice shape. I have that one bookmarked too, but won't be bidding since I got one already. Hopefully I can avoid bowlback MAS for a while! 

That photo you posted looks odd, Jim - almost as if the top has no cant at all. The light source must have been positioned right on top of it if there is, but then there's a shadow of the bridge _below_ it. How strange.

bratsche

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## Eugene

> The American conservatory mandolins seem to be well regarded by you folks . #I don't know if this is an appropriate questions, but what would you say is a fair price to pay for this piece (assuming there are no structural defects)? #
> 
> The bidding starts at $199.


American Conservatory was a mid-level brand of Chicago's Lyon & Healy Co. Their best brand was Washburn. Assuming this one is functional, and if I were considering it, I probably would keep my bidding under $300 knowing a Washburn could be had with a little searching. However, healthy and functional is relatively rare and the impatient would be justified in going higher.

As often stated here, if you do score this, only put the very lightest strings on this: down to ca. 0.009" on e". I favor Dogal's "Calace" brand carbon steel, set RW-92b. GHS's classical set is one of the lightest and will do no harm, but don't strike me as particularly long-lived. Lenzner's bronze-wound strings are of great quality, but hard to come by and expensive on this continent. Black Diamond's classic reissue set is appropriate. Dean Markley and Ernie Ball have all recently jumped on the ultra-light bandwagon.

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## Bob A

It's hard to be sure, but it looks like there's a wooden shim under the bridge, extending onto the pickguard on the bass side. I'd ask the seller about that - it could bode trouble.

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## bratsche

> As often stated here, if you do score this, only put the very lightest strings on this: down to ca. 0.009" on e". I favor Dogal's "Calace" brand carbon steel, set RW-92b. GHS's classical set is one of the lightest and will do no harm, but don't strike me as particularly long-lived. Lenzner's bronze-wound strings are of great quality, but hard to come by and expensive on this continent. Black Diamond's classic reissue set is appropriate. Dean Markley and Ernie Ball have all recently jumped on the ultra-light bandwagon.


Very interesting! I was aware of the Calaces and Lenzners, but not the others. Thus, I had my doubts when the Vega seller, after he had told me the strings were new and I warned him that he'd better lower the tension because it required special strings that only a very few dealers carry, replied: 

"Don't worry. I have had MANY of these style Mandolins. The tension is OK as it was strung with Extra light gauge and set up by Luthier Robert Peterson. These strings used are actually lighter than the originals! You will be pleasantly surprised. I will loosen them for you for now."

He didn't say what brand they are, but he put my mind at ease because he seems not to be "bowl-unsavvy", unlike so many. But I guess it is possible that he may be right, after all?

bratsche

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## etbarbaric

Hi Dan,




> Wow! Good eye. That is a very sneaky little illusion. Is it possible that the consistency across the staves would be the result of wear on the finish? For my part, I don't think I can really make out the grain.


Actually, with rosewood, its more patterns in the wood figure and subtle color shading that can tip one off to this approach. In fact, most rosewood has so little interesting (small-scale) figure that not many mandolin makers that I've seen tried to do anything creative with matching figure from rib-to-rib (unlike maple). So.. when I see figure move consistently from one rib to another, to another, to another, and then change suddenly, its a clue. And its the differences in shading that indicate where the real rib joints are (they are also the ones that tend to open up over time! :-))

If you look at the photos of the back (the one with the instrument laying on its face), you can see that, starting with the small ribs close to the edge, the first three are consistently colored. From there, the next four share a consistent color, and a light patch runs across all four. The next four are darker, etc. Once your eye clicks into seeing ribs in units of four, it will jump out at you forever... (though most others will never notice it!).

The seller doesn't say how many ribs there are... so you'll have to count them when you get the instrument! :-) If I recall... (don't hold me to this).. my own 42-rib specimen has this very pattern 42 = (2x3)+(9x4) So in reality my instrument was built from 11 broad ribs that were later carefully and precisely inlayed with a separator to make it look like 42. The other tip-off is to examine the inside of the instrument... by counting the facets from the real ribs.

And good work Jim... I'll have to dig mine out to compare it to your image. I think mine is unlabeled as well.

Eric

ps - I payed $99 for mine... but I probably stole it....

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## Martin Jonas

Bratsche -- I think Jim's image is a colour engraving, not a photo (although it may have been created from a photo overlay) and if so, the shadows are the artists' rather than given by actual positioning of a light source.

Bob -- I was wondering about that differently coloured piece at the bass end of the bridge as well, and it may well be a shim. However, with the bridge being the wrong way around, the gap that it fill may have been created by the wrong placement and orientation. There is no knowing how well it will fit once it's been turned around and put in the right place. The pickguard curvature is going to be somewhat different from that at the cant. A close-up photo of the bridge from an oblique angle may tell more.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

I am not sure whether that is an engraving or a photo. I t sort of resembles many of the colored and highly retouched coilor postcards I have seen of that era. Itis likely that the retoucher was doing his or her job a little too well obliterating some of the shading.

Jim

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## Eugene

> ps - I payed $99 for mine... but I probably stole it....


Yeah, I think ca. $200s is more like an appropriate price for a similar piece if healthy.

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## Eugene

> He didn't say what brand they are, but he put my mind at ease because he seems not to be "bowl-unsavvy", unlike so many. But I guess it is possible that he may be right, after all?


He may, eh? Yes, he sounds to know a thing or two about this type of instrument and that he offered "_extra_ light" to describe how it's strung bodes well.

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## bratsche

...or not. I asked him what the strings are, and he thought "Martins". They are coming off. I need to work on the bridge anyway (see my post in the other topic... sigh!) As for savvy, I think he tried to pass himself off as knowing more than he actually does.

bratsche

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## Eugene

I'm pretty good at that.

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## Jonathan Rudie

Rebuilt 1925 Calace on Mando cafe classieds ad as number 13843. #Perhaps someone more tech savy than I can create a link.

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## Jim Garber

That Calace is the last of Mike Schroeder's herd. He had a bunch of work done on this one including extended fretboard and armrest. It looks like the work was done well. It also looks like non-original tuners.

Jim

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## trebleclef528

Quote: "That Calace is the last of Mike Schroeder's herd. He had a bunch of work done on this one including extended fretboard and armrest. It looks like the work was done well. It also looks like non-original tuners."

This looks like a class instrument, and I really like the honesty with which he describes it... " perhaps not a collectors item.. but perfect for the classical player"

It looks superb and if looks are anything to ge by I would guess it plays like dream....if I had a few spare $$$$ ??

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## Jim Garber

Well... it is not a bowlback, but here is a Calace instrument that we all can afford. Note the especially fine workmanship. 

Now we have seen Japanese archtop guitars and this rather crude uke with the Calace name on it. Who knows what else is out there?

Jim

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## Jim Garber

I am sure that a few of us are watching this beat up Embergher Orchestra No.1. I have a feeling that it will take lots of luthier TLC to restore it. On one hand it looks like it could be my only chance to get such and instrument. On the other hand, it looks like it needs lots of replacement parts like the fretboard, scratchplate, tuners, tailpiece cover, in additon to a rather worn top with some possible warpage and a rather nasty crack in the back. On the third(?) hand, the photos are not great and the seller doesn't take PayPal. He says he would accept wire transfer to his bank account. He also has a negative feedback from an active mandolin buyer. Doesn't sound too promising. eh?

I bet it still goes for over 500.

Jim

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## Bob A

A grim proposition either way, the proverbial lose-lose situation.

Buy the basket case and spend a year and a small fortune in restoration, and end up with an instrument that's partially Embergher, or not buy it and have no Embergher?

Sinier De Ridder have a nice one. I don't know the asking price.

In a situation where the market puts a premium on a label, the low-end stuff gets pumped way too high; I'd personally go for a rather more pristine example, have it in hand immediately, and be comforted by its originality and condition. But then I'm nearer the end of my effective life-cycle, and have less time to play around.

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## Martin Jonas

I was wondering whether Dan K won the American Conservatory Style 607 we were discussing. $227 strikes me as a decent price for what it is. Whoever the winner "dfxlrsscc" is, he also won this quite similar instrument, which has a rather attractive clownshoe.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Martin:
I emailed Dan to see what he was doing and he said that he had come upon another bowlback that he won at a decent price. 

I was considering going for the AmCon myself but realized that i have too many American vintage bowlbacks and should save my money for when the good italian ones pop up.

Re "dfxlrsscc": It is interesting to see some folks mandomanias erupt and then subside. Last year there was the omnipresent "coast2coastbooks" who bid one just about any bowlback and won quite a few. I did email that buyer just to say and welcome to the order but never got a reply. I suppose he/she is finally sated since he/she does not bid on these any more, tho this person is still active on eBay.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> A grim proposition either way, the proverbial lose-lose situation.
> &lt;snip&gt;
> Sinier De Ridder have a nice one. I don't know the asking price.


Bob: I agree that it is better to spend more money (if you have it) and get the better condition one. That one looks scary and who knows, may never be quite right.

I emailed Sinier but i have a feeling that like William Petit, many of these are just for show and long sold. That one is a maple backed. Any seruious difference in the sound or preference to palisander/rosewood?

Jim

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## RSW

Attention,

I've seen their best mandolins... only one really impressed me as having playing value and it wasn't the fancy one... Everyone make a guess :Smile: 

Richard

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## onthefiddle

This mandolin went for a lot more than I expected. 

Vincenzo Sannino moved from Naples to Rome in 1925, and I haven't found any evidence that he moved back again. I have heard a colourful story of how he relabelled German trade violins, to sell to German officers looking for old Italian instruments during the German occupation of Italy, towards the end of WWII. Apparently he made quite a bit of money this way, which he invested in property.

Given the abundance of Violins relabelled as modern Italians in more recent times, it has become particularly unwise to rely on the label in any modern Italian Violin. Let us hope that this practice doesn't become commonplace with Mandolins.

Jon

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## Eugene

> This mandolin went for a lot more than I expected.


I'll say!

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## Jim Garber

That Sannino -- sort of a cartoon version of a Calace 

BTW I heard back from Sinier about the Embergher. They said:



> I'm sorry but this mandolin is reserved untill 20th of #may.


Perhaps, it is someone we know?

I assume that means that the potential buyer is trying to get the cash together.

Jim

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## Bob A

They had a nice Calace on their site a year or so ago - when I emailed them about it, I got the same reply. The photo lingered a month or two, then went away.

I've been impressed with my very low-end Salsedo mandolin, and pursued, in dsesultory fashion, one of the hyper-fancy examples on the market, but it came to nothing. While I've come the the conclusion that one needs only one ornate mandolin, and I have it already, I wonder how their fancy Salsedo sounds. (I wonder, in fact, whether mine is anomalous. There's always a problem evaluating a long-dead maker's work, when it exists primarily a continent away. That, of course, is why I've gone to the trouble and expense of acquiring too many bowlbacks, and while I have the instruments, ultimate answers still elude me.)

I'm wondering which of their instrruments Richard found to be a worthy example. My fancy Ceccherini is a pretty sweet instrument; I'm willing to hazard a guess that theirs is a worthwhile mandolin, but truth be told, it's just a shot in the dark on my part. Richard, 'fess up.

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## Bob A

Regarding maple/palisander:

I bought a palisander Salsedo off ebay/uk several months ago, impressed as I was with my maple example. Sadly, it was yet another ebay nightmare, of the minor sort. Described as having been restored, I discovered the restoration involved what seems to have been a can of varnish and a paintbrush. The top had been coated somewhat thickly with some sort of topping, not well, but thoroughly. The bridge was in sore need of a saddle and some patching (Vega-like, its string slots, made for spacing only, were chipped out, unable to perform their function. The action seemed a little high as well - or would have been, had a saddle been included).

I took it to a local guy, who set the frets properly in oplace and made a saddle, sadly a mm or two too high. Even so, the thing plays well enough in 1st position to determine that it has potential to be worthwhile, and I'll get the saddle cut down somewhat, and string it with Lenzners. Given that the two instruments differ in stringing and setup, I can't say that the composition of the bowl makes much difference.

(Interestingly enough, the pattern in which the paper is glued to the interior of the bowl is quite distinctive, and it is obvious that the two bowls were lined identically. They were both dated 1895, though the rosewood example has more ribs and a better level of construction and finish.)

Still, I am now and expect always to be a maple-bowl aficionado, even while recognising that it makes no difference, really. (It's the flame, primarily).

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## RSW

Ok, the only instrument they had that didn't need neck resetting (oh yes), was the Gallesi (with the Roman mandolin look). It was also the least fancy instrument I tried but had a convincing sound. The Salsedo is indeed very fancy but would need carefull restoration to have a playable instrument. The Kasserman was tempting but it too needed neck resetting or some other fix (fingerboard over veneer to coverup the dip at the 12th fret). Kasserman made very good instruments in the Calace design.

Instruments I didn't see: The Cristafaro mandolin is interesting and the Gelas example is exceptional (decoration) if you can stomach a double soundboard. The Egildo mandola (even without the bowl) is a safe investment, Egildo mandolins are consistently good in tone and basic workmanship. I also like the Thibouville-Lamy mandolin (from the pictures) though I didn't see it in person.

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## Jim Garber

I was happy to see this American Conservatory mandola show up on eBay. I have one just like it and it is a nice instrument certainly for the money.

The downside is that the seller had some interesting repairs done to it. I can;t tell if what he had done was stupid or rather sensible. BTW I highly doubt (as do most of you) that is was made in 1950, prob more likely 1915.

Jim

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## bratsche

And then there is this mandola. A lot of pretty eye candy decoration on it, but I wonder what its structural condition really is, and what it plays like. It seems from the pictures that the strings are off-center to the treble side, for whatever reason. This guy "taisamlu" is sort of like the "inlaidartist" guy, except that his particular thing seems to be inlaying refurbished old instruments rather than quirky modern ones.  :Wink:  I bought some nice marquetry pictures from him once, but I don't know about an instrument...

bratsche

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## etbarbaric

Yes, in case its not clear, much of the fanciful design on this old instrument is newly-applied and not original. I'm as much a sucker for pretty inlay as the next guy (or girl) but I don't much like the idea of someone putting non-original inlay designs on older instruments.

Harumph!

Eric (Resident Curmudgeon)

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## trebleclef528

Hi all,
Probably not the right heading to ask under, but I ask anyway.

I (at least the British BMG Federation) have had a question from someone asking for information about a "Jupiter" bowlback mandolin. I presume the chap asking the question has one...... I've never heard of this make..... any ideas?? I've asked him to send me a photo.
Thanks,
Ian

ps An amazing thing happened in Scotland yesterday... the Sun came out and stayed all day..... I think that was our Summer!

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## Bob A

Hi Ian - congrats on the radiation. Don't overdo your exposure, getting a season's tanning in one day. I predict you'll have at least one more opportunity before the snows hit.

Jupiter tingles a few dendrites, but it's too little, too long ago. Maybe Jim Garber has some photos archived.

Have you ever found anyone in Germany who's ever seen or heard anything of my Wolki Signature Model? (I can't think of anyone other than yourself who might have the connections to uncover info on the subj).

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jim,

If I were you I wouldn´t worry too much about the things you mention on the Embergher Orchestra mandolin. Most likely the split in the fingerboard doesn´t affect the mandolin´s playability nor it´s being in or out of tune at that point. 
The scratchplate can be redone in original style with gold on tortoise shell and the lost part of the tailpiece - the little plated metal sleeve-guard can be copied from an original one (this kind of loose Embergher sleeve-guard is often missing and in the past Hendrik van den Broek has made me several ones copied from original examples. If you like I´ll be happy to be of assistance to you. Also the plating of the unprocessed brass sleeve guard is no problem). The same with the missing 22nd stave fret.
The long and ´nasty crack´ at the back looks to me as if it can be pushed back in it´s original shape and will therefore not be much of a problem for an accomplished luthier. The unvarnished soundboard is original and, fortunately, not split. I would take it´s dry appearence for granted.
The broken tuner is probably the only thing that gives a restorer a bit of a problem. That is, if you should - as I certainly would do - decide to keep the original tuning mechanism on.

All in all IMHO a nice, rare and therefore very collectable Embergher N.1 Orchestra mandolin.

Rare, because this example is decorated with the ´sharke teeth´ around it´s soundhole (as seen on the oldest Embergher mandolins (and other Embergher plectrum played instruments) with fingerboards ending halfway the oval soundhole in combination with (what later would turn out to be Embergher´s final scratch-plate design of his N.1 orchestra (mandolin) model and both his student types) the one pointed scratch-plate. 
Not that this kind of decoration disapeared; as late as 1924 similar ´sharke teeth´ mother of pearl inlay is still seen being applied around the _round_ soundholes of Embergher N.1 Orchestra mandoloncellos.

But to my knowledge this combination of characteristics in mandolins is quite rare. 
More often one comes across the ´sharke teeth - butterfly´ N.1 Orchestra mandolin examples. Here an image of such an early Luigi Embergher mandolin made in 1906.

Good luck to you if you are going to bid on this one.


Best,

Alex

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## Jim Garber

> I (at least the British BMG Federation) have had a question from someone asking for information about a "Jupiter" bowlback mandolin.


I believ that this is another brand from the L&H corral. More later whne I have a spare moment.

Jim

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## onthefiddle

> I was happy to see this American Conservatory mandola show up on eBay. I have one just like it and it is a nice instrument certainly for the money.
> 
> The downside is that the seller had some interesting repairs done to it. I can;t tell if what he had done was stupid or rather sensible. BTW I highly doubt (as do most of you) that is was made in 1950, prob more likely 1915.
> 
> Jim


The neck repair that has been done to this instrument is normally only done on extremely cheap instruments that are not worth the cost of a proper repair. It is most commonly seen on very low grade small size cellos and double basses. It is normally used on these instruments to allow a child to economically continue to play an instrument until they are ready to move up to a larger size.

This type of repair does have a significant impact on the value of an instrument, and being a repair that cannot be guaranteed, normally means that such an instrument could not be resold by a shop (meaning that it has no trade in value). I would certainly bear this in mind before deciding to bid.

Jon

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## onthefiddle

> And then there is this mandola. A lot of pretty eye candy decoration on it, but I wonder what its structural condition really is, and what it plays like. It seems from the pictures that the strings are off-center to the treble side, for whatever reason. This guy "taisamlu" is sort of like the "inlaidartist" guy, except that his particular thing seems to be inlaying refurbished old instruments rather than quirky modern ones.  I bought some nice marquetry pictures from him once, but I don't know about an instrument...
> 
> bratsche


I would also be concerned about what might lie beneath that exceptionally dark (re?)finish. If it has been refinished I can only assume that it is designed to hide, or at least obscure.

The dark finish makes it hard to see, but isn't the bridge the wrong side of the cant?

Jon

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## Eugene

> I believe that [Jupiter] is another brand from the L&H corral. More later when I have a spare moment.


I believe this to be true...in part, but I've seen a number with a rather generic mother of pearl fingerboard that didn't remotely smack of Lyon & Healy construction. I would be reluctant to give any solid attribution of manufacturer to most of the few Jupiter brand things I've seen.

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## Jim Garber

> If I were you I wouldn´t worry too much about the things you mention on the Embergher Orchestra mandolin. &lt;snip&gt;
> All in all IMHO a nice, rare and therefore very collectable Embergher N.1 Orchestra mandolin. &lt;snip&gt;


Thanks, Alex, for your advice. It is certainly comforting in terms of the actual instrument. 

I am somewhat less concerned with the condition of the mandolin as the reliability of the seller. He did answer my emails but I am a little nervous about a bank to bank transaction. What recourse do I have if the money goes and i never get the mandolin?

This is the trouble we folks over here have with buying these desirable instruments from across the ocean. On the other hand I may go for it if it stays sort of reasonable.

Re: Sinier... thanks Richard for your observations. As I suspected, thier prices are on the high side:



> Käsermann, Naples 1907 : reserved (same person as the Embergher!)
> Umberto Ceccherini, circa 1900 : 1300 
> Mandolin by Salsedo, Neaples 1899 : 2800 
> Gallesi, circa 1930 1500 
> (Postage and insurance included)


I am sure that the Embergher is well over 4000  (considering what the Salsedo is).

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> On the third(?) hand, the photos are not great and the seller doesn't take PayPal. He says he would accept wire transfer to his bank account. He also has a negative feedback from an active mandolin buyer. Doesn't sound too promising. eh?


Jim --

One thing to keep in mind when dealing with Ebay sellers in Germany is that the banking system is very different, and Paypal is very uncommon. Direct bank transfers within Germany are free and have for many decades been the ubiquitous method by which money exchanges hands between private individuals. Personal cheques are effectively unknown. This is why until very recently, it was very common to find shops who would not take credit cards (card use is still much less than in the UK or US). So, unlike in the US or UK, the problem that Paypal was invented to solve -- traceable easy money transfers between individuals -- didn't exist in Germany and Ebay sellers just continued to use the free system they grew up with rather than pay money for an alternative. I'm lucky in that I can deal on Ebay Germany through my mother's bank account, but it makes buying from German sellers difficult for non-Germans. However, insisiting on bank transfers would not raise any alarm bells with me concerning the reliability of a seller (unlike the Romanian Western Union option).

The feedback from anniverdi is a different story -- as you say, anniverdi is a regular mandolin trader on Ebay and he appears to be the only non-German that this seller has ever dealt with. That's worrying. On the other hand, that was three years ago and the more recent German feedback is all very positive, in particular regarding speed of delivery. Your call.

Incidentally, anniverdi is selling this 1894 Vinaccia, currently on 302 Euro.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

I'm not sure whether there has been any mention of this Italian dealer here before. I noticed that he has an 1888 Luigi Embergher here, which is rather intriguing as it has tuning pegs (becoming obsolete at the time) as well as a fretboard extension (which didn't become common until some time later). From Alex's Embergher site, it would appear that these 1888 labels as in this example are the very earliest labels with Luigi's name on it. It's difficult to see, but I think this one already has the radiused fingerboard of the later Roman style. Also pictures of a 1898 Embergher mandola (sold) and a number of Calaces and such.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

1927 Calace.

Martin

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Martin,

The instrument that is advertised here as a #Luigi Embergher mandolin (1888) is not made by Embergher. It was build by another Roman maker but indeed shows already a few rudimentary characteristics of the famous Roman mandolin design as developed by i.e. Maldura / De Santis and Embergher. But it is not made by any of these three last mentioned Master luthiers.

The label is indeed one of the very first Embergher labels, but it does not belong to this mandolin.

The Mandola you mention, offered for sale by the same dealer, also has characteristics that one does not find in the instruments by Embergher and, due to restorations etc., should today perhaps best be seen as a kind of Roman ´composite´ mandola. 
Having judged the instrument I believe that it was made in the Giovanni De Santis atelier. 
At a later time the mandola has been opened and repaired by giving it an other sound table and one - also because of it´s scratch-plate - quite similar to the ones seen on Luigi Embergher´s larger plectrum played instruments of that time (± 1900). Probably at the same time the (original) fret board was replaced by a Luigi Embergher fingerboard with - and that is interesting for it´s time - 29 frets. Mandolins made by Maldura and De Santis are the oldest so far found to carry as many as 29 frets on the fret board.

So IMHO a composite instrument with all the distinguishing De Santis features like the head, mechanics, neck bowl and tailpiece and the later applied parts that without doubt refer to Luigi Embergher.

Best,

Alex

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## Martin Jonas

Thanks, ALex, that's a fascinating bit of forensics. Incidentally, I've just noticed that the site also has an English option, so that one can compare Alex's analysis with the (rather more biased) assessment by the dealer.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> I (at least the British BMG Federation) have had a question from someone asking for information about a "Jupiter" bowlback mandolin.


I have this from my trusty 1912-1913 Lyon & Healy catalog. I think Jupiter was the budget line, even below American Conservatory in those days. 

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> 1927 Calace.


That is a very nice looking one. Unfortunately the seller only ships to Germany.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> That is a very nice looking one. Unfortunately the seller only ships to Germany.


I'm not sure. It does say right at the bottom that the postage rate given only apply to Germany, but that foreign bidders should get in touch before bidding. From that, the seller seems to at least entertain the idea of foreign bidders. Try you luck, I'd say -- it does look a nice example.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Bowlback prices do seem to be on the rise: I had been watching this nice but somewhat basic and damaged Angara & d'Isanto. It went for £420.50, which I'm sure it could not possibly have achieved even a year ago.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

That beat-up Embergher is climbing. I think I underestimated the final price. 30 minutes to go and it is 805. I bet it might go as high as 1500.

I am out of the running on this one, if anyone else wants to try for it, good luck. 

Hmmmm... I had a thought. The Mandolin Futures Market. We can't own these so maybe we can bet on the prices.

Jim

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## Bob A

The Embergher went pretty high - over 1000 euros. Calace still low, waiting the last-second flushing of a covey of snipe, no doubt. Looks a lot nicer than the Emb. Can't quite make out the label - should be Calace & figlio if it's really 1927. I like the eccentric soundhole decorations, and haven't seen the bridge position markers before - mine has little rosettes stamped into the table to indicate bridge position.

Lessee, now. The crystal ball is murky, but similar models have found few takers at 3500; and "player's quality" instruments are being offered at 2500 US. So let's say 2700 euros. But I hope Jim gets it for a song.

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## trebleclef528

Quote: (trebleclef528 @ April 26 2005, 18:32) 
I (at least the British BMG Federation) have had a question from someone asking for information about a "Jupiter" bowlback mandolin. 

Quote:I have this from my trusty 1912-1913 Lyon & Healy catalog. I think Jupiter was the budget line, even below American Conservatory in those days. 

Jim 

DETECTIVE JIM DOES IT AGAIN!..... The gentleman asking the question sent me a photo of the mandolin he was trying to find out about........ it is exactly the one that Jim has detailed......... many thanks Jim (ever thought of changing your name to "Mando Tec"?)
With Thanks,
ian

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## Jim Garber

> Can't quite make out the label - should be Calace & figlio if it's really 1927.


Yes, Bob, you are correct, it says "Prof. Comm. Raffaele Calace & Figli"

BTW does anyone have a way of categorizing these Calaces by model name/number etc. like Alex did on Embergher.com? There seem to be a large variety of these and no two exactly alike.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Am I missing something? This, as far as I can see, is a nondescript bowlback from Catania with a painted-on fake pickguard. It's up to £375 with six hours to go after a bidding frenzy by three new ebayers (from the US, Kuwait and Greece). 

Also a de Meglio, a Puglisi with very strange crack repairs, a Stridente.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]" The Mandolin Futures Market."

Great idea, Jim. I have already notified the Chicago Board of Exchange in order for them to establish the needed trading-booth for us. # Commodity futures first instituted (according to legend) by the Emperor of Japan in order to stabilize the price of rice; Mandolin Futures, perhaps the New Big Thing of our time... # 

As for the, ah... eeeky Catanian, I wish I could tell the bidder from Greece that (s)he can get a FAR better, native instrument for far LESS money. But, perhaps it's the kitsch that attracts his/her fancy. Oh, well...

----------


## mandostud

OK, all you knowledgable guys, what's the story on this mandolin..??? and do you think it would be a good buy. Thx for any info... !!!!   http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7318692  700&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

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## Eugene

> OK, all you knowledgable guys, what's the story on this mandolin..??? and do you think it would be a good buy. Thx for any info... !!!! # # #http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7318692  700&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW


It's a very base Lyon & Healy, comparable to the Jupiter pictured above. #Assuming it is perfectly functional with an action around 2 mm at the neck-body joint, the asking price might be justifiable...but it's still pushing it. #I wouldn't be remotely interested in this one when you can get one of Lyon & Healy's better brand, Washburn, for a similar price.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Does anybody have any particular thoughts on this unlabelled recent mandola on Ebay Germany? I'm vaguely interested in getting a larger-scale bowlback but don't envisage it becoming my primary instrument, so a modest but reliable modern instrument might suit me, if it remains at roughly the starting price. However, I have a suspicion that this might be a Korean factory model, in which case I'd be less interested.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

Isn't this a Romanesque Miroglio, Martin? Check the catalogue...

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## Jim Garber

> Isn't this a Romanesque Miroglio, Martin? Check the catalogue... #


And what of the mysterious Miroglio company? I see that the Eye Candy page has no link at all and the builder search reveals this:



> Mandolin, mandocello, guitar, and bouzouki. Web site disappeared in August, 2004.


Where is this mysterious catalog?

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

Well, not much lost...  

My guess was another flash of my fading mind... I just recall, vaguely at best, some Roman-type (weeeeeeeeel... _sort_ of) Miroglio mandolins and mandolas. The one on eBay reminded me of those. That, or some mid-20th-century German shop, perhaps in former East Germany... that's the feeling I get about this instrument. But, of course, nothing definitive.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Can't. The Miroglio homepage disappeared from cyberspace about a year ago. You may well be right, in which case I might desist. Thanks!

Martin
PS: I'm crossing over with Jim and Victor, I see.

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## Jim Garber

Martin, you prob knw this also, but i would check on the scale length. I wonder if this is a tenor mandola or an octave (or whatever the names are over there.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

According to the seller, scale length is 42.8cm. Comparing with other instruments, this seems slightly on the large side for a tenor mandola, but too small for an octave. Closer to a tenor, I'd say.

Martin

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## Mlong623

> Hey, these American bowlbacks are coming out of the woodwork...
> 
> Martin Style 1
> 
> Washburn Style 175
> 
> Jim


I bought the Martin as a first mandolin.
It looks nicer in person than in the ebay listing.

Prolly paid too much, I dunno, but I love it and I'm happy. I have some learning to do.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Congratulations, Mlong623. It looks a lovely instrument. $400 doesn't sound too much to me for a vintage Martin in such a good condition (judging from the photos, anyway). Enjoy, and come and see us for advice on setup and finding your way around a mandolin! To start with, now might be a good time to get yourself a few sets of Lenzner strings.

Martin

----------


## Eugene

Congrats, Mlong623, and welcome to our little throng. I love the old Martins and I'm sure you'll enjoy this.

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## trebleclef528

QUOTE martinjonas 
Does anybody have any particular thoughts on this unlabelled recent mandola on Ebay Germany?


Hi Martin, ..... some info from my German connections.....
They had been sold under the german GEWA label, masterwork from Mittemwald (and as Victor says) also with the italian Miroglio Figli brand. 

They are made in Czechoslavakia, not too bad, medium quality, good for starter mandola, nice Embergher look. 

The german/italian type mandola has a very short scale for GDAE tuning. Irish mandola GDAE is with a much longer scale, i think. 
There are different kind of strings available for long or short scales.
Regards to all,
Ian

----------


## Martin Jonas

Thanks Ian -- that's very helpful in getting an idea. I'm not terribly keen on this one, but after watching much nicer Calace and Suzuki mandolas go up to around 600 Euro in the past couple of weeks, this may be what I should look at for a playable workaday bowlback mandola for 200 Euro or less. I see that there is now a bidder anyway, so even this one may not stay in that vicinity.

I already have an Irish GDAE bouzouki with a 66cm scale length, a third more than this one. I really feel this one is intended for CGDA; it's _so_ short for GDAE.

Martin

----------


## Mlong623

Thanks.
I did some digging around and saw two other style 1 Martins for sale online between 600 and 800 and neither looked better than mine so I guess I did ok.

From what I can tell the action is reasonably low but I'm not experienced enough to know if the setup is where it ought to be. I went and got a tuner the night it arrived. 

I've seen the discussion about the Lenzners. Kinda spendy strings, but hey if they deliver...

----------


## Eugene

Lenzner's consort strings sound _very_ nice on my favorite Martin, but at the respective prices, I favor Dogal's "Calace" carbon stell, set RW-92b. They start life rather harshly, but quickly mellow with play, and I really like the focus of their tone when mature. The Lenzners are fairly long-lived, especially for bronze-wound strings, but their light, wound a' is not nearly as long-lived as the Dogal steel. Dogals live practically forever.

----------


## Jim Garber

Well the 1927 Calace went for a respectable but not outrageous price. I suppose part of it might have been scaring away bidders from outside of Germany. At least i have a sense of what I need th have moentarily to compete in this market.

That was a sweet-looking one, esp with the engraved pearl inlays on the scratchplate. I would also hope that it sounded pretty good.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a 1903 Martin Style 2 for non-ebay sale. This was the listing I found on mugwumps classified:



> 1903 Martin Bowl #2, exc cond. One ding. Missing tp cover. Brazilian rosewood, spruce, maple & ebony. $850 firm. Email Kevin Carroll or call 717.295.7077 . 04/15/05r


There is a rather extensive description at the link above. It does need some work, but might be a good bet for a nice American bowlback.

Jim

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## Eugene

As much as I like Martins, I think the price seems a bit steep for condition on the style 2. This more than doubles the cost of the near-pristine style 1 discussed above. I don't believe Martin ever used "genuine tortoise shell" on mandolins. In addition to the problems listed, it also has a rather ugly replacement bridge that is nothing like the original would have been.

----------


## Jim Garber

Tho this seller of the Martin says price is firm, I am sure that some reasonable offers can be made esp explaining the work that needs to be done. This would be esp true esp after the ad gets no or little response.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I didn't go for the modern mandola, but I did try for this wreck. No complaints about being outbid, I guess -- I was rather torn on whether I wanted to burden myself with a basket case or not. The missing hardware might be relatively easy to replace, but I wasn't too sure about the neck joint nor about exactly what the separations between the top and the bowl were about. Probably better left to leuterius.

Martin

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi,

At eBay Germany there has come up for auction #this 24 Fretboard Puglisi .


Greetings,

Alex

----------


## Alex Timmerman

And just when you think you have seen almost everything, there is this at eBay Italy...


Cheers,

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

> And just when you think you have seen almost everything, there is this at eBay Italy...
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alex


Not exactly a bowlback, but nevertheless interesting, Alex. Do you know of the maker?

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

This Wolverine, American bowlback, is interesting. I never heard of the maker. Too bad the seller closed the auction down -- I hate when they do that.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

Wow! I love the scrathcplate inlay and satinwood binding. As common as it was in Italy, I don't recall ever seeing the latter feature on an American mandolin. #Mike Holmes lists Wolverine as a brand name of the Grinnell Brothers, but then offers no info on Grinnell. #So I went on a little online hunt to find this on Grinnell Brothers Music, Ann Arbor/Detroit/Pontiac, MI and this whole site dedicated to the Grinnells in general. #They appear to have begun manufaxcturing their own line of pianos in 1901, and there is a good deal of online chat surrounding them.

----------


## Jim Garber

WEell, nothing too out of the ordinary, but, hallelujah! I won this DeMeglio. I think from the descriptions and photos that it is in opretty decent shape. It would be nice to have a vintage Italian one in playable condition. We will see.

There was a scare intially as the bids rose higher and then the high bidders scammees started posting seriously negative feedback. I (and others) informed the seller and she cancelled this guys bids. So the price I am paying is semi-reasonable these days.

more details when i get this thing.

Jim

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## guitharsis

Congrats, Jim!

It looks really nice. It has all original parts looks like.
Like the decorative headstock too. Haven't seen one like that in all the ones I've looked at. 

Think you'll be pleased with the sound and the playability. Now you and I both have a Stridente and a DeMeglio.

Doreen

----------


## Jim Garber

> Like the decorative headstock too. #Haven't seen one like that in all the ones I've looked at.


I haven't seen one with that either. The only times I have seen that metal flower plate is on Ceccherinis. There must be some relationship between the ateliers DeMeglio and Ceccherini. Or esle anyone could buy those metal flowers at the local store and glue or tack them on.

Jim

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## Eugene

Congrats, Jim. It looks mighty tasty.

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## Jonathan Rudie

Congratulations Jim! #I know you have been hunting for a sweet Italian Bowlback for quite sometime and I hope this is a winner.

Jonathan R.

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## Martin Jonas

Looks good to me, too, Jim -- congratulations! I haven't seen the flower, but my Rinaldi has a different aluminium decoration on the headstock. It's nailed on, and from the photos I think your flower is as well. To be frank, it looks pretty cheap and downmarket to modern sensibilities, but at the time would have been cutting edge -- aluminium had only just been discovered and was the miracle material of the age, so putting it on as decoration would have seemed daring and innovative. But, of course, it's all part of the period charm, and the de Meglio it's on is in fine fettle and should be fun.

Martin

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## Alex Timmerman

Looks very nice Jim. And even with original sleeve-guard. Welcome in the De Meglio circle !

Best, 

Alex

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## etbarbaric

Congrats Jim,

Just FYI... I have a DeMeglio with the little decorative flower plate on the headstock. When I first got it I was sure it was an after-market addition... but I've seen several since. I wouldn't call it refined exactly... but it does appear to have been original equipment.

Eric

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## Jim Garber

Thanks to all for your good wishes. Perhaps when we all gather at our geographic center (somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean) we can all play in the all Demeglio orchestra, with aluminum flowers in our lapels.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

The ornate Mandolin by the Wolverine B & W company has been taken out of the Ebay auction. I hope someone got it who knows to value the American bowlback histrory. A really nice instrument and still in a very nice condition.

By the way; the wonderful Mother of Pearl inly around the sound table was also used by Maldura and De Santis on their mandolins and mandolas. And seen in early Luigi Embergher mandolins.


Greetings,

Alex

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## vkioulaphides

Congrats, Jim! Yes, looks sweet and healthy; enjoy!

----------


## Linda Binder

Congratulations Jim! It looks to be in fine shape. Wait....there's no case! Oh no!  (an ongoing source of amusement for bowlback owners in America.)
Don't forget to send baby pictures when she arrives.
--Linda

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## Martin Jonas

Three Puglisis (one, two and three). The first one is interesting in having a de Meglio-style string downholder, a fretboard extension and a compensated bone/ivory bridge, none of which are standard for Puglisis as far as I can see. Looks very de Meglio in overall design, including the scratchplate (no vine inlay, though).

Also another alievo di Vinaccia: Pasquale d'Isanto, on this one curiously without his partner-in-crime Angara. Maybe they had split up by 1903.

Stridente. 

Finally, this one may have started out life as a de Meglio and has then gone psychedelic at some stage. A luthier building an "updated" de Meglio from scratch or an aftermarket customisation? Who knows. From the description it sound like the seller himself may be responsible for some butchery on this one.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Yes, there is no case, however I have my sources for thesxe smaller mandolins. The hard part is finding cases for the likes of the Pandini. Which reminds me...

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> This Wolverine, American bowlback, is interesting. I never heard of the maker. Too bad the seller closed the auction down -- I hate when they do that.


I beat you on noting this one, Alex 

However, it is insteresting your noting the simililarity in inlay. I did get an Italian feel from this one. Too bad they aborted it...

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Just staring at a Lenzner pkg. Any clue what make of mandolin that is? I assume German. Sort of Calace or Christofaro clone?

Jim

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## Plamen Ivanov

Herwiga.

Isn`t it "bronze" instead of "bronce"?

----------


## Dan K

Hi folks! I thought I would try to tap your collective experience again. For those of you who have had a luthier work on an old mandolin, what might one expect to pay to have a top crack repaired. I imagine there is a relationship between cost and the depth and length of the crack, but do you have a ballpark? Also, what do you know about the crematone line of the washburns? 

BTW, this is unrelated to the mandolin I just got. Unfortunately, it seems to have been damaged in transit so the seller is going to have to duke it out with the Canadian postal service. The damage was not really extensive, but we both agree that I didn't get what I paid for. Bummer. 

Thanks!

Dan

----------


## Jim Garber

Dan:
 Welcome back to our loittle corner of the Cafe.

Asa far as crack repair, it depends on a number of things: where the crack is on the body; if the crack is separated and/or the top has warped; where you are located (what the market will bear for luthier fees) and the skill and reputation of the repair person. I would say that generally $75-100 for a moderate crack is reasonable, but i am in the Northeast and I go to the best guys I can find. As they say, your mileage may vary...

The Washburn line is called Cremonatone after the city in Italy known for violins. I am not sure if this was a complete line or just a way for Washburn to make their image even more upscale. Perhaps the other L&H experts will chime in.

Jim

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## Eugene

> Hi folks! #I thought I would try to tap your collective experience again. #For those of you who have had a luthier work on an old mandolin, what might one expect to pay to have a top crack repaired. #I imagine there is a relationship between cost and the depth and length of the crack, but do you have a ballpark? #Also, what do you know about the crematone line of the washburns?


Too bad to hear of your mando's trials. #Top cracks shouldn't be a big problem, but the cost will vary depending on how bad it is and who you know. #It could be as little as $20 or as much as much much more. #If there is substantial separation and rehydration or splinting/splining is required, it can get to be a farily major job. #My advice is to ask a luthier or two who you trust to look at the piece and offer a fair estimate.

Cremonatone was just a fabricated word that Lyon & Healy used on the labels of their Washburn line of mandolins until ca. 1910 to invoke the hypothetical tone quality of the mandolin mother land, Italy.

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## Jim Garber

> Cremonatone was just a fabricated word that Lyon & Healy used on the labels of their Washburn line of mandolins until ca. 1910 to invoke the hypothetical tone quality of the mandolin mother land.


I had a feeling that was the case, Eugene. There is no mention of the term, BTW, in any of my catalogs. I have only seen it on the labels and usually on a separate one, not on the main label.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Plamen, yes, both in English and in German, "bron*z*e". I, too, wonder about the curious, "bron*c*e" spelling; doubly so because the word is, of course, spelled correctly in the description below, in German.

 It may be a deliberately misspelled "trademark" of this type of strings.

----------


## Martin Jonas

I suspect it may be some mistaken believe by Lenzner that "bronce" is the correct English spelling. German "English" is not always the same as the real thing -- note the widespread belief that the correct English word for "mobile phone" is "Handy" or that the word "City" refers specifically to the main central shopping district.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

A slightly risqué photograph of two American celebrities in a German-language magazine was once hilariously provided with a legend describing their, ehm... _cozy_ dance-figures as "ch*eck*-to-ch*eck*".  

Of course, Tennis Magazine got the record straight, when they pictured Ivan Lendl treading the dance-floor with Martina Navratilova in a similar yet unmistakably UNcomfortable bodily posture.

Go figure...

OK, back to the _topic_!

----------


## Dan K

I see. The damage was not terrible on the mandolin, so hopefullly it won't be too expensive. However, as you can probably imagine, my bowlback itch has not been entirely scratched. So I keep looking around on ebay. I am not sure what my wife will say, but I am willing to risk it. This is the cremonatone. I don't know if that is an inflated price considering it is cracked, but if the price doesn't go up too much it may be worth it

----------


## Eugene

The price seems fair, but only fair given the two top cracks. It also appears as though the binding is missing from the terminus of the fingerboard. I love the mandolin-horn-manuscript scroll inlay in the scratchplate. If this one slips by, fear not; 1890s-1910s Washburn mandolins are massively abundant. Many are still relatively healthy.

----------


## Jim Garber

Strange that the seller does not provide overall pics front and back of the mandolin. I think he/she got so into the details that she/he forgot to give us a complete view.

Looks pretty nice. If you have a luthier you can trust, show it to him/her and get an estimate. Of course, you must bear in mind that, as many of us have learned over the years of getting these bowlbacks, they almost often need some set up work to make them completely playable. So you can add some more $$ for that, no matter what mandolin you get.

BTW I just checked in my catalogs and this is a model number 150 from 1890s. Description and scan to follow.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is the model 150. Please excuse the quality as it comes from a photocopy of a catalog.

Jim

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## Plamen Ivanov

Thanks Victor and Martin!

Most probably it`s a mistake. I`m just not quite sure in my own knowledge about the spelling of some words and such things make me doubt in me. I doubt any patent office in the world would register such a trademark. I always like your stories, Victor! #  #You have always a story for everything!

Good luck!

----------


## onthefiddle

Hi Dan,

As Jim and Eugene have explained - the cost of a crack repair can vary quite widely. Thankfully Mandolins can't suffer from soundpost cracks and so costs won't go that high!

Repair estimates are time based, a typical shop rate in Canada is about $60 CDN an hour, though you might get a lower rate dealing directly with a luthier, who won't have the same overheads as a shop. You may find someone who will charge considerably less, but it's important to bare in mind that it is a lot more expensive to have poor repair work undone and then redone properly, than it is to simply have it done well in the first place (i.e. good repair work will take a certain amount of time - if someone is exceptionally cheap how are they cutting that time down?)

The other important factor affecting the cost of a crack repair, beyond the factors already raised by yourself, Jim and Eugene, is the condition of the crack. Is it fresh, clean and sharp or old, dirty and worn/missing fibres? The latter case will obviously take longer to repair invisibly. If it has been badly repaired before then you will also have to factor in the cost of undoing the old work. In that case there will often be rounded edges/missing wood to contend with also (from the previous work). If any of your instruments ever develop a crack - avoid the temptation to touch it, and get it repaired as soon as possible - it will cost you less and have a higher chance of achieving an invisible repair.

I would check out the reputation of anyone you consider taking an instrument to. I would completely avoid anyone who wanted to refinish an instrument or replace the front (except in truly exceptional cases) - these are both "techniques" that were discredited about 150 years ago. Both of these are irreversible and so affect the value of the instrument. The same can also be true of splints, where it is common to saw into the crack before fitting the new wood. I would be very wary of anyone who wants to put a splint into a crack - it is extremely rare for this to be necessary, I've yet to find a crack that I couldn't repair using other more effective techniques. Ideally only reversible techniques should be used - this includes the use of hide glue - there are people out there using crazy/super glue, PVA and even epoxy.

Regarding finish repairs - bowlbacks are normally particularly easy to retouch, so this type of repair (which can be part of a crack repair) shouldn't be expensive.

Good luck in your hunt!

Jon

----------


## Eugene

> I had a feeling that was the case, Eugene. There is no mention of the term, BTW, in any of my catalogs. I have only seen it on the labels and usually on a separate one, not on the main label.


I think some of the labels went so far as to say "Only Washburn has the 'Cremonatone'" or words to that effect. This strikes me as a rather odd statement in that if only Washburn and no Italian mandolins had it, wouldn't it be that olde "Chicagotone?"

----------


## onthefiddle

It looks like everyone (rich enough) has been wasting their money on these old Strads, Guarneris, Amatis etc...

For $15 (+ inflation) you too can have the Cremona Tone!  

Jon

----------


## etbarbaric

I cultivated my ear once... but it eventually got better...

----------


## onthefiddle

Here is something rather unusual - the rose seems to be made up of a random collection of offcuts, from a variety of different designs, set in black mastic.

Jon

----------


## Eugene

That left-over-bits-of-pearl-scraps-set-in-mastic-style rosette was pretty common to mandolins from Catania, particularly Puglisi. However, the Puglisi mandolins seem to have been a little more selective for finer scraps.

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

> That left-over-bits-of-pearl-scraps-set-in-mastic-style rosette was pretty common to mandolins from Catania, particularly Puglisi. #However, the Puglisi mandolins seem to have been a little more selective for finer scraps.



Right. And as you suspect this one doesn`t seem to be a "Puglisi" though. 

Martin, I saw your post about the three "Puglisi"s a little bit late. The "de Meglio"-like is very interesting! Thanks for paying our attention to it! Unfortunately I cannot see, if there are the typical for "de Meglio" mandolins side holes. It would be interesting to know. 

Good luck!
Plamen

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Plami,

Here again a 24-fret finger board PUGLISI REALE&FIGLI dated 1925.

Something for you?

I am in doubt where this mandolin is at the moment or will be shipped from, since it says: "Item location: CHARLESTON,S.CAROLINA United States" and "The instrument will be shipped from Bulgaria."... . 

But it´s nice to see photos of it.


Best,

Alex

----------


## prayerbone

hi all i placed some info about a mandolin on ebay on a new topic under the title ebay..should of gone here i guess sorry..if any mods want to delete that thread its fine it went for £42 seemed ok price but i dont know much and was worried about going to high...aj

----------


## Jim Garber

> Something for you?
> 
> I am in doubt where this mandolin is at the moment or will be shipped from, since it says: "Item location: #CHARLESTON,S.CAROLINA United States" and "The instrument will be shipped from Bulgaria."... #.


I love that inlay on the pickguard but that Bulgarian connection makes me nervous.

Jim

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hello Alex and Jim,

Thanks for paying attention to this one! The instrument looks interesting - another different Puglisi. It seems to be in a good condition, but the starting bid is too high IMHO. I`d guess the item is located in Bulgaria and the seller might be a Bulgarian or an American from Bulgarian origin living in the US. I see he is selling traditional Bulgarian items. Most probably he is just organizing the sells and the products are located here. The seller seems to be a trustworthy guy, so the "Shipping from Bulgaria" system also seems to work properly. I think, there`s no reason to get nervous. I don`t know this guy and I don`t have any financial interest in what he is doing. Just on contrary - he is a competitor of mine, as far as I`m trying to sell traditional Bulgarian Craft products as well. 

So many different Puglisis! What I want to see is a flatback Puglisi mandolin. I have just heard about that, but never seen one.

Good luck!
Plamen

----------


## Jim Garber

Marco is selling this mandolin by Carlo Martello that seem to have some semblance -- in the headstock and the side vents -- to the Demeglio family. I love that graceful string tensioner. 

Somehow we will eventually connect all these DeMeglio clones. Was Demeglio a large factory or a very efficient small shop. Anybody have a clue? Is there a listing somewhere of patents for the "sistema Demeglio"?

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Embergher clone by Giuseppe Cesolari. This one looks particularly nice with what looks like 29 fret fretboard.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Plamen,

Are you perhaps looking for something like this?

It looks like a quality mandolin made by a fine luthier.


Best, Alex

----------


## Bob A

The Cesolari has an interesting bit of compensation built into the bridge.

----------


## Bob A

While I suspect most posters here check out the classifieds, Marco Onorati has listed a 1909 Vinaccia, as well as a more contemporary Calace mandolin and liuto cantabile.

----------


## trebleclef528

AWARD FOR HERR KNORR - I see that Claus Knorr has won the highest award in Germany for his "La Gioiosa" bowlback mandolin...........little wonder he has a two year waiting list details as follow: (you can see his website here)

German Musical Instrument Prize for 2005 

The Highest German Award for Musical Instruments in the Category Mandolin

This Prize is awarded by the Federal Ministry of Industry and Labour in recognition of outstanding products in the musical instrument field. 

The winner of the plucked string instrument section, the soloist model mandolin "La Gioiosa", is a masterpiece of the firm Klaus Knorr Plucked String Instruments of Erlbach in Saxony.

The overall evaluation stated: The prize-winning mandolin is characterized by a very beautiful and evenly-balanced timbre. In addition, the sound is clear and open and enables exceptional articulation. The tonal response of the lower strings is remarkable, as is the brilliance of the upper registers. Musicians praise the consistency throughout all positions. The workmanship is very good and the instrument has a pleasing form.

The soloist model mandolin "La Gioiosa" was judged as very good in all categories.

----------


## Jim Garber

That "joyous" instrument sounds wonderful in the hands of Gertrud Weyhofen.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

I rec'd an email the other day from those reticent folks at music-treasures.com, the same people that have a CD with 31 mandolins from the 17th century thru 1933. Apparently the collection is (finally) up for sale; I understood that they'd be selling individual instruments. When I checked their website I was unable to find details of such trivia as price, although I understood that such info was available. I emailed them about the question, but have not rec'd an answer. If anyone else is able to elicit info please pass it on.

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## Jim Garber

Bob:
It is a little confusing. They have a few single mandolins for sale under "mandolins". The ones you are referring to is under "mandolin collection".

Here is what Roger wrote me some time ago:



> We prefer to sell the mandolins as a whole collection. If we can't find a buyer during our spring sale (end of May 2005), we are probably going to sell them individually, maybe through a reputable musical instrument dealer in the US.


It is very odd that these collectors want to sell their collections as a unit. I suppose it is easier to get that lump of cash. On the other hand, I have a feeling that it makes them feel like they are museum curators -- there is some ego involved as well.

In any case, these are some interesting mandolins for sure. 

Jim

----------


## etbarbaric

I have the CD and there are some pretty instruments in the collection. Just a heads-up... A couple of the 18th century instruments that they list as "important" are probably not. Obviously, the interpretation of the date of 1665 for the one Neapolitan mandolin label is somewhat doubtful :-)

Another is labeled (on a printed label!) as by "Joannes Vinaccio" and it is obviously a Mandolino Genovese (a model not favored by the Vinaccias) that has been chopped and carved up to function as a Neapolitan mandolin.

Caveat emptor!

Eric

----------


## Eugene

> I have the CD and there are some pretty instruments in the collection. Just a heads-up... A couple of the 18th century instruments that they list as "important" are probably not. Obviously, the interpretation of the date of 1665 for the one Neapolitan mandolin label is somewhat doubtful :-)
> 
> Another is labeled (on a printed label!) as by "Joannes Vinaccio" and it is obviously a Mandolino Genovese (a model not favored by the Vinaccias) that has been chopped and carved up to function as a Neapolitan mandolin.


I had some correspondence with them on these very topics back when they first assembled that CD. #1665!? #Puhhhlease.

Yeah, I got the same e-mail a couple days ago, Bob. #(I've been out of town, but will reply to e-mail soon, Jim.)

----------


## Jim Garber

My Demeglio has finally arrived. Here are my initial impressions:

Seems to be just what I expected. No cracks (!) that I can see. I just took off the strings and the tuners are a little stiff especially one, so I may take the plates off the tuners and check them out to see what is going on before I string it up.

The body has scratches but, once again, no cracks. I will give it a light cleaning and after, looking at the tuners, string it up with Lenzner Consorts. So far, so good. I am looking fwd to hearing and playing this thing. 

Oh, and two other pleasant things: the string cover is in great shape and the plectrum that came with it seems to be real tortoise and a nice thick one at that. It sounds wonderful tho may need a bit of dressing.

Altogether, so far, I am quite happy. Of course, I have to see how the neck angle works, etc. I hope that it comes together and plays well without a visit to the mandoctor. That would be a welcome change.

I will post pics on the Post a Picture thread when I get a chance.

Jim

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## Eugene

As always, you are an enviable soul, Jim.

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## Alex Timmerman

I´ll 2nd that, Eugene!

Congrats Jim, your De Meglio looks beautiful!


Best, 

Alex

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## prayerbone

hi jim congratulation's thats a lovely mandolin!
iam new to the mandolin have a eastman 515 and try and play old time.but more and more iam finding the classical section my first port of call.. u people really know ur stuff..aj

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## Alex Timmerman

Welcome and Greetings from Holland, Andy

----------


## onthefiddle

Congratualtions Jim, that's a very nice example - I think I need a green covetous smiley!  

Andy - where are you based? There are a number of us in the UK here.

Jon

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## prayerbone

hi iam in southampton Jon u?any advice for a tutor book for classical mandolin..my eastman ok for playing classical i'd guess ? aj

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## Jim Garber

Thanks all! I put a little silicon spray on the tuners and they eased up nicely. I strung it up and I now see what folks are talking up about that echo effect. Very different than my Pandini, but equally pleasurable for a different sound palette.

Any clue what these tuning pegs are made of? I have never seen ones like these.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

Hi Jim,

I believe they are bone... perhaps dyed bone. Several of my instruments have similar pegs. Very pretty things...

Eric

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, Eric. They did look like some sort of organic substance.

BTW, for you other Demeglio owners: my label has a model number: it looks like B [1/A] (written just that way with the brackets. It would be nice to compile a listing of models. Has anyone seen any catalogues, ads or even patents for the Sistema Demeglio?

Jim

----------


## onthefiddle

Hi Andy,

I'm near Cambridge.

"The Bickford Mandolin Method" is a very good tutor book, particularly if you don't have a teacher, which many of us don't. The first two volumes are available as ebooks from djangobooks.com

If you do a search in this area of the cafe for "tutor" or "method" you'll find a number of threads discussing this. Other notable methods are Cristofaro (also available from djangobooks), Silvio Ranieri's method - the first two volumes of which are available from Trekel (who are an important source of sheet music for the mandolin), Pettine's method is also highly regarded, though I'm not sure where it's available from currently. There are a number of other good methods, many of which are available from Trekel, but Bickford is a particularly good place to start if you don't have a teacher - he goes into more detail than most on such things as holding the instrument and the plectrum for instance, though his is certainly not the only approach.




> my eastman ok for playing classical i'd guess ?


Of course - Bickford actually refers to the "violin or flat model", though many of us here may feel that those flat instruments are a bit hard to hold (How do you keep hold of something that thin?  ) - Only joking!  Are you familiar with the music of Simon Mayor? He has a lot of classical music in his repertoire - all played on an arch topped instrument.

Jon

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## onthefiddle

Not a bowlback, and not really of note - but I though it might amuse some here. Actually, this looks more like it might have been the result of a dull Friday afternoon in the Gotz factory:

Take one large Viola ribstructure, attach a flat front and back - being careful to give the soundboard a particularly bizarre pair of f-holes, add a couple more soundholes for good measure, attach a mandolin neck, and you have a....? 

Jon

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## prayerbone

hi,i know i knowwwwww but i couldnt resist it ..i won the pollman,i just fell in love with it,will go with the pollman banjola lol!
thks for info on tutor jon....aj

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## Eugene

Congrats...and welcome to "The Order."

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## Jim Garber

Excellent aj! Nice to keep it in the "family". Please report back when you have it in hand.

BTW This thread is the sister to this one which we use for posting pics of our bowlback acquisitions.

I have pics of my Demeglio up there right now.

Jim

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## trebleclef528

Wow!
Congratulations Jim......... It looked like a goody from the auction, but looks 10 times better in your photos.

I've had similar pegs on a few mandolins and it was suggested to me that they may be a type of horn.

I'm really pleased that the De Meg looks and hopefully plays well........... worth waiting for me thinks!
Ian

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## Martin Jonas

Here's an intriguing bowlback -- English luthier, clearly inspired by de Meglio, but with a vast amount of decoration added, including a fluted back with silver (real, according to seller) rib separators and a tortoiseshell overlay to the entire headstock. May of course come into the pigs-with-lipstick category and in any case has some serious structural issues. 

Martin

----------


## onthefiddle

Hi Martin!

I'm discussing some of the issues that this instrument may have with the seller (via email). It has turned out that I know of him, by reputation, so I should be able to trust his opinion. You're right that this will need some fairly major work to restore it to structural stability and its full former glory, but it looks worthwhile to me.
Does anyone have any knowledge of J.G.Winder? I haven't come across him before.

Jon

P.S. Andy - Congratulations on winning the Pollman! I don't think there are many of us with American bowlbacks on this side of the pond.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Jon -- there's a bit of information on the maker here, although this concentrates on the banjos. The outfit appears to have had some degree of continuity, being identifiable in 1886, 1910 and 1963 (although I wonder whether this last date may be a typo for 1903).

Martin

----------


## onthefiddle

Very interesting Martin - it appears that it may well be English then. I was wondering if it had been imported and then re-labelled by a dealer of that name. I think you're right - 1963=1903, he may have been older than the exceptionally long lived Antonio Stradivari if he was still making in 1963.

Jon

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## Jim Garber

Lookig at this Winder mandolin, I would say that its details are so close to standard Demeglios #that it was prob made by Demeglio under Winder's name. Even the stamp near the tensioner which I thought would say "sistema" mimics the Demeglio one.

Too bad the top is in bad shape -- that wicked warp -- tho I imagine that given the fanciness of this one, it may be worth the money it would cost to restore.

Jon or Martin... one of you should go for this one. 
Jim

----------


## onthefiddle

I'm interested, as long as the price reflects the work that is needed.  

One _possible_ difference I can see from the standard de Meglios is the side ports in the ribs - does it have any? It could be that they are not visible because they are hidden by the darkness of the ebony ribs.

Jon

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## Martin Jonas

All yours, Jon, as far as I'm concerned. I'm intrigued, but don't really need the hassle of trying to sort out that repair.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Charles Johnson has a nice looking Martin 000 bowlback for sale. He is asking $300. Might be a good one for someone to be initiated into the order.

Jim

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## prayerbone

hi,hows the back made on that Jim? it looks like one pieces  aj

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## Jim Garber

According to the Longworth Martin book, this model had 9 mahogany ribs. However, this is a late one and might have been a custom order. I think there are ribs but they are not separated by a contrasting strip and may have even been smoothed to look like one piece.

Jim

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## Eugene

Exactly. Martin's mahogany bowls did not sport contrasting spacers. When the bowl got its final shaping, the seams essentially disappeared through camouflage in the grain lines. You have to really look, but the seams between ribs are there.

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## prayerbone

thks for the replys..out of interest are there one piece backs made if yes any pics? aj

----------


## onthefiddle

Hi Andy,

It depends on what you mean. I haven't seen a Neapolitan with a one piece back, though I suppose some sort of laminated pressed back made from constructional veneers might be possible, though it would only be used for very low end instruments. I haven't seen that though. I have seen one piece fibreglass(?) bowls on very low end greek instruments, and if you search through the archives here you may find references to instruments with aluminium bowls (obviously one piece again).
For one piece backs of wood you really need to go back to the 17th century and earlier. Hopefully I have managed to link to an image at the V&A website showing the decoratively carved back of an instrument signed Boissart 1640. If the link to the image doesn't work you could try clicking here.

Jon

----------


## Eugene

There was a character somewhere in Latin America (I believe) building Neapolitan-like mandolins out of a bowl carved from a singular lump of wood. #I don't recall the name or url, but he did have a web site. #This is also a common practice in charango manufacture now that the hollowing out of armadillos is frowned upon. #Some middle-eastern long-necked lutes (like saz) are still built this way. #It results in a whole lot of grain runout so is usually considered a rather primitive technique for bowl construction. #Kind of like comparing cedar-strip to dugout canoes, eh?

----------


## Jim Garber

Joe Todaro imports these from a maker in Bolivia. I bought a nice charango from Joe years ago at the Phildelphia Guitar Show. 

Joe had a table at CMSA last fall and had these mandolins but I am sorry to say that I never got to play one. They look interesting, tho not all that inexpensive.

Jim

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## Eugene

Thanks, Jim.

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## prayerbone

thks for the info cool pic as well..i was at the v & a last year its a great museum..my mum makes quilts so it was treat for her birthday,i got away from the quilts long enough to see the musical instrument lol..its a bit of a maze there,i still feel i missed loads..a trip's in order!! maybe a uk madolin cafe members trip?? aj

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## etbarbaric

Thanks very much for the Boissart image Jon. I have always wanted to see that instrument. It wasn't on display when I was last at the V&A... it is surely a stunner!

Best,

Eric

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## Bob A

One-piece back bowlback? Look for the aluminum-bodied Merrill.

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## Jim Garber

> One-piece back bowlback? Look for the aluminum-bodied Merrill.


Here ya go...

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## prayerbone

wowee hows that sound compared to the resonators??aj

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## Jim Garber

Tinny....er... aluminummy...



Jim

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## Jim Garber

This 1931 Calace marks the selling off of a rather large collection of instruments. This is the seller on eBay who sells a CD of his collection. Starting bid for this is $6000. I wonder how it will go. 

Nice Martin at a semi reasonable starting price.

Seller's list


Jim

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## prayerbone

hi ive been reading a lot about bowlbacks since this forum as cast its magical charms! i just discovered the Calace webpage... are Calace's the loars of bowlbacks??? aj

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## Jim Garber

aj:
Calaces in general are among the most desirable. I would not say like a Loar: their prices, even for the most desirable vintage ones are still in 4 figures (euros, dollar and pounds) for the most part. 

I have played a few of the newer ones, notably Victor's, and they are fine instruments for the money. There is still pride in the family legacy. 

Just as background the big three of Italian vintage bowlbacks: Calace, Vinaccia and Embergher. Of the last one, Alex has a wonderfully informative Web page here.

Jim

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## Arto

About carved-out construction:
"This is also a common practice in charango manufacture now that the hollowing out of armadillos is frowned upon. #Some middle-eastern long-necked lutes (like saz) are still built this way. #It results in a whole lot of grain runout so is usually considered a rather primitive technique for bowl construction. #Kind of like comparing cedar-strip to dugout canoes, eh?"

Ronroco from BoliviaMall

I´d be very happy to have a dugout canoe with grain like this!

 Arto

----------


## onthefiddle

> Here's an intriguing bowlback -- English luthier, clearly inspired by de Meglio, but with a vast amount of decoration added, including a fluted back with silver (real, according to seller) rib separators and a tortoiseshell overlay to the entire headstock. May of course come into the pigs-with-lipstick category and in any case has some serious structural issues. 
> 
> Martin


Bidding exceeded my limit a couple of minutes before the end, so I never got to snipe. Oh well - that's a lot of work that I won't have to do!  

Jon

----------


## onthefiddle

Ian (trebleclef) has a fluted back Suzuki for sale. A friend of mine had one of these, and it did sound a lot better than a normal lower end Suzuki.

Jon

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## etbarbaric

> This 1931 Calace marks the selling off of a rather large collection of instruments. This is the seller on eBay who sells a CD of his collection. Starting bid for this is $6000. I wonder how it will go.
> 
> Nice Martin at a semi reasonable starting price.
> 
> Seller's list


Hmmm... a long list, and not a bid to be seen. Me thinks he asks too much...

Eric

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## prayerbone

hi,thks for info Jim great site Alex..saw a few bowlbacks on uk ebay today..too many to link but might be some good ones.. there's a kisslinger,hasermann and tonelli to name a few..#aj

ps what u think of this one its at hanks in london £229..Carlo Ricordo bowl back 12 string mandolin. The strings are in 4 groups of 3 strings and the extra strings are tuned the same as the other 2 from the group of 3.

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## prayerbone

pic

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## billkilpatrick

jim - as lovely as it is, the one piece mandolin from Joe Todaro is in fact a two piece construction (excluding sound board). #if you look carefully you can see an ellipse shape on the neck where the peg board has been joined to the neck. #i used to think this grafting of a peg board onto a bowl and neck, single-piece construction was a way to salvage work that had been damaged during the making of the peg board. #now i think it actually adds strength to the instrument as a whole. #

a lovely instrument. #his double course, ukulele/charangos are also a thing of beauty.

- bill

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## Jim Garber

This is a strange one: basic Demeglio design but no zero fret, Demeglio bridge or tensioner. The scratchplate looks like it is not bevelled like the Demglios but it does have the side vents. 

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Jim -- when I saw that one, I thought that's Stridente aiming for a slice of the de Meglio market. I think the only thing they changed from their normal layout are the scratchplate and the side vents (both fairly trivial alterations). We've previously speculated that these scratchplates, as used by de Meglio and Ceccherini, came out of a third-party workshop. They vary in terms of sophistication, but there is a certain common look and feel to them. The scratchplate on my Rinaldi also seems to be from the same workshop, but looking at the Stridente photos, I don't think that one is. 

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Speak of the Devil, Martin, here is another Rinaldi.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Yes, Jon and I were discussing that one over in the photo thread. I think it's probably a sign that the varnish on mine is original after all, even though it's not like on the de Meglios. Maybe that was Rinaldi's contribution to the construction, or else a specification he made to the de Meglio workshop if they were made on commission.

Terrible bridge on that one, though -- luckily, my Rinaldi is in much better condition.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

This 1929 mandolin by M. Moretti in Rome has some rather appealing Embergher-like features and a very nice maple bowl with around 30 ribs. I've never heard of the luthier, but at the moment, the price is really very low. A bit worrying that it should have lost two frets, though. Interesting ondulating bridge saddle (for compensation?). I wonder if that's original.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

For thsoe who need replacement bridges, there are two nice-looking reproductions of a de Meglio style and a compensated Puglisi style bridge on Ebay at the moment. Starting bids are low, though postage seems rather high to me for such a small and light item. I think the seller has been seen here on the Cafe, when he was discussing repairs to an old de Meglio.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

This one is not actually a bowlback, but I thought it might intrigue connoisseurs of the unusual f-hole in this forum. Looks like the seller actually has two identical mandolins and wants to sell one of them off.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

prayerbone, I would steer clear of 12-stringers; _entirely_ too much trouble to be worth it.  

I have discussed my 2004 Calace at length elsewhere; perhaps the thread(s) can still be retrieved... Also, if you want better pictures than the indistinct images posted on Calace's webpage, I would be happy to e-mail you some of mine. If so, please drop me an MC-message or an email at home, i.e. vkioulaphides@earthlink.net

I have, generally speaking, humble tastes: my next-to-bottom-end (model Nº 26) Calace, for the money (+/- $1,000) is just fine for me. I have voiced doubt time and again that one gets "double" the tone-quality for twice the money. But, if money is not your primary constraint, sure, go for it and get a top-of-the-line "Classico A"; splurge on the wear-proof frets; splurge again on the natural MOP scratchplate... still, some $4,000 later, you won't be ANYwhere near as impoverished as you would have been if you were buying a Loar or, for that matter, ANY top-of-the-line carved instrument.

Cheers,

Victor

P.S. Oh, before I forget: once you DO get that Classico A, do post a review, won't you?

----------


## onthefiddle

> This one is not actually a bowlback, but I thought it might intrigue connoisseurs of the unusual f-hole in this forum. Looks like the seller actually has two identical mandolins and wants to sell one of them off.
> 
> Martin


The Mandolin that the seller is keeping has a variation on "flaming sword" soundholes. These are most commonly encountered in the west on the Viola D'Amore, but have an older root as the flaming sword is the Islamic symbol for truth. It has certainly been proposed that rather than meaning "Viola of love" Viola D'Amore is a corruption of "Viola of the Moors".

Jon

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## prayerbone

hi.yeah was going to victor.. just thought i'd post it out of interest as iam new i thought it was kind of unusal..aj

ps after a late nite and loss of counting skills i also posted it in the 10 string thread duh #

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## Jim Garber

> The Mandolin that the seller is keeping has a variation on "flaming sword" soundholes. These are most commonly encountered in the west on the Viola D'Amore, but have an older root as the flaming sword is the Islamic symbol for truth. It has certainly been proposed that rather than meaning "Viola of love" Viola D'Amore is a corruption of "Viola of the Moors".


Interesting, Jon. I used to own a guitar-shaped violin stamped Guseto with similar soundholes. I was told it was from Mirecourt. The french have an interesting aesthetic in musical instrument design.

Jim

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## prayerbone

hi well my pollman came today..ive got to say its so sweettttttt..there really is something incredible about holding and playing a older mandolin,the feelings it conjures up about pass owners etc..it sounds wonderful to me very woody sound and mellow,iam stoked..
there's a few things that need to be addressed.. but most are very cosmetic,and i kind of like the lived in look..the two issues that need to be looked at are 1).the cracks you can see in pic (in pollman thread) which look massive in picture,are very fine in the flesh..2).the bridge is glued  ,iam pretty sure there NEVER glued, anyone know any differences about pollmans?the tunings pretty much dead on even down on the octave..i will borrow a friends camera later and post in pic thread..aj

----------


## Jim Garber

aj:
Congratulations and welcome to the Order of the Bowl.

Do you have someone who can work on this? It doesn't sound all that bad but that person should also be able to tell you want subtle adjustments to make to get the most of your new old mandolin.

Jim

----------


## prayerbone

hi Jim, no i dont at present..is there anyone you could recommend for the cracks and the bridge..any clue at what the cost would be.theres some surfaces damage on the top, but i dont think thats urgent just wear from play.. i guess theres a toss up between repair and making it look new (which i dont want)..your right about the order, man iam in love with the differences in sound from a bowlback..man this things is 125 years old and it blows me away awsome!!!!!!can u tell iam hooked lol #aj

----------


## Jim Garber

You don't need to make it new just have it repaired correctly. You are in the UK? Perhaps Jon, Martin, Ali or Ian have suggestionsas to who you can take it to.

I don't think it should cost too much unless there are other issues that we may not be aware of.

Jim

----------


## guitharsis

Looks like Bernunzio's added some bowlbacks to their inventory www.bernunzio.com

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## Jim Garber

Yet another "sistema Demeglio" bowlback under the Prowse label.

Actually I took a closer look and it looks like a pretty std Demeglio except for the fact that the frets don't extend as close to the soundhole as others I have seen.

Jim

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## Bob A

While the 1931 Calace got no bids at 6K, the sellers have listed a Globo for $300, which might be a good deal for someone.

They also listed another? Calace for 5 grand, and a bunch of previously unlisted instruments, including more mandolins.

----------


## Jim Garber

You can see the other Music Treasures mandolins for sale (outside of the "collection" from the CD) here. That Demeglio might be all right and I have a feeling that he may be open to bargaining on that one. It was on eBay some time ago and did not sell. I like that Vinaccia mandola which sold supposedly for $12,000. 

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Bob -- I keep seeing "Il Globo" bowls on Ebay UK, but I have no idea where they fit into the overall quality range. Do you know more about them?

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

I did a quick search of Il Globo and came across the John Alvey Turner sitre which has one for sale for £185 and yet another Demeglio clone labelled Fratelli Bellini for £150. You can see pics of these two bowlbacks here.

BTW have any of you UK folks been to this store? I would think it is steeped in mandolin history.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Marco has a Maratea for sale which, unlike most of his listed prices, has a reasonably low starting bid and no reserve.

Another regular seller, "World of Mandolins" from Vienna, has an interesting, though anonymous, 1920s Calace clone.

This Disantino looks in decent shape.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> the 1931 Calace got no bids at 6K


Even tho they say they will not relist, this is the same Calace they now have listed for $5000.

Jim

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## guitharsis

Pamelas Music www.pamelasmusic.co.uk has a few bowlbacks.

243 for 175GBP looks to be a DeMeglio.

Very pleased with the Stridente I received last October. I love my DeMeglio but the Stridente is unique.

----------


## Jim Garber

Hard to tell by the photo but that tensioner on the Demeglio clone looks like it is positioned incorrectly which could be a serious problem or indicate one.


Jim

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## Bob A

I've never played Globo, but have seen a few on the net.

Regarding the relisted Calace, they had two from 1931 on their CD, so the new one may well be different. Not having 5K available, I'm not inclined to look it up.

One wonders if any of the 400-bowlback collection will hit the market. Would do wonders for price reduction, I imagine.

----------


## Jim Garber

> One wonders if any of the 400-bowlback collection will hit the market. Would do wonders for price reduction, I imagine.


I did ask about this, Bob, and he said that for the moment they are looking for a buyer for the whole collection. I suppose when that doesn't sell as a group they will break it up. I find itn so funny that collectors have this thing about keeping their collection together. Financially they would probably do better selling each individually. I don;t think I would care whether mine all stayed together or not, but i would like it all to be appreciated and played. They are, after, all like our children, right?

Jim

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## guitharsis

Jim,

I've seen that photo before. She uses the same one for many of the DeMeglio or clones.

Doreen

----------


## Martin Jonas

That de Meglio-clone photo is rather peculiar. Apart from the downholder, which is too chunky and far too far back, both the pickguard and the fret markers (but not the headstock) look much more like Ceccherini than like de Meglio.

Martin

----------


## guitharsis

That particular deMeglio clone is probably long gone. #She used that same photo for three deMeglio mandolins she had last year. #

Doreen

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

Here a 1897 Fratelli (Nic & Raf) Calace; an exceptional bowlback of note!

Click here to find it on Ebay


Best,

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

That one is an undertated beauty. Too bad I am taped out whenever these appear. I have to sell off some to replenish the intrument fund so I can get one of these beauties.

So, any idea of the final hammer price on this one? I say 3000-4000.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Considering the lack of interest in the two MusicTreasures Calaces, both (if indeed there are two) fancier than this, I'd go low. Also, I suspect (more or less without grounds) that the earlier Calace examples (fratelli) are perhaps less desireable (since less refined both conceptually and physically) that the later instruments.

Anyone with real knowledge is encouraged to adjust my preconceptions.

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## Alex Timmerman

Well Bob, I recon the early (Nic & Raf) Calaces as the best - soundwise speaking - in their sort and within their models of course.

And that counts also for the (Pasq. Gen. & Gaet) Vinaccias, The Maldura, De Santis and early Luigi Embergher mandolins. So instruments that are not yet build with the heavy inner construction we see in the later instruments.

Most of these mandolins have because of their light construction, a very ´vibrant´ sound. A nice clear and loud sound also, I would say.

Anyway, I am with you for that it will probably go for a fraction for what it is really worth.


Best,

Alex

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## Jim Garber

> Anyway, I am with you for that it will probably go for a fraction for what it is really worth.


A fraction? I still think it will be at least 2500 or so. Those later Calaces on the Cafe all sold for about $3500 each. Why would this be different? Besides there are still a handful of manic bidders for these in Europe and Asia.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

We´ll see what it´ll make. In the meantime let´s see what we think about this Calace...

----------


## onthefiddle

I think ... ouch!!!  

Also, note that the soundboard is obscured in shadow. How much more work is waiting there? 

It is starting exceptionally cheaply for a Calace though!  

Jon

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Jip, what we need here is a good photo of the complete front of the mandolin.

----------


## Jim Garber

It looks like a previous owner pianted the front to match a chocolate bar. Amazing. That may be the only Calace I can afford at the moment. still I imagine it will go for much more than a non-calace basket case.

Sorry, I just took another look. It is not a Calace but a Pagace. Much different. Raffaele Pagace was famous for his hand-painted mandolins.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> Here a 1897 Fratelli (Nic & Raf) Calace; an exceptional bowlback of note!
> 
> Click here to find it on Ebay


Check out the "ask the seller" emails for this Calace here. Nice (and smart) of this seller to let the auction run its course. Unless, of course he gets the proverbial offer he can't refuse.

Meanwhile, Marco is high bidder at 307 for the basket case "Pagace." At least he will restore it, hopefully properly. I have a feeling that it will go for over 500, tho. Probably needs 1000-1500 worth of work on this thing to make it playable, strip the top and refinish.

----------


## Bob A

Yeah, well, I confess to making him an offer that it seems he could refuse. Way I look at it, if it's going to go cheap and early, why not to me?

Meanwhile it's no business as usual for the high-dollar Calaces, and even Marco's Maratea (?) went down with no bids.

----------


## onthefiddle

The "Pagace" ended at 307 Euros. (How do you get a Euro symbol Jim? I have a stubbornly British keyboard with £ and $ only.)
It will be quite some time before it becomes available again I'm sure  

Jon

----------


## Jim Garber

> How do you get a Euro symbol Jim? I have a stubbornly British keyboard with £ and $ only.


Jon:
I work on a Mac so it is merely opt-shift-2 but it works differently on a PC. Eugene and I had this discussion some time ago and I was able to find the keycode for  for the PC but can;t find it at the moment. 

Jim

----------


## Eugene

alt+0128 generates . Alternately, I also find EU$ to be acceptable.

----------


## onthefiddle

Thank you Jim & Eugene! All I need is an excuse to use it now  

Jon

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is a set of closed bowlback tuners with bone buttons (one seems to be replacement). They look very similar to those on the plainer of my Ceccherinis. Might be a good buy for somebody needing replacements.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

This is a strange beast. It superficially looks like a de Meglio clone, but with an all-aluminium bridge, and both soundhole and cant seem strangely far down the body.

[On second read, I see that it has a completely new laminate soundboard. The mind boggles -- who on earth thought that was a good investment of time and money, and why was it done so distinctly non-authentic?]

Martin

----------


## onthefiddle

I couldn't agree more Martin. This appears to have been by Carlo Loveri, who was a Neapolitan Violin maker. I would have liked it as a restoration project, but I'm not at all interested now. 
I assume that the height of the ribs (depth of the bowl) was reduced, and this is what has caused the unusually low cant.
I'm not convinced by the effectiveness of the bridge design anyway (though maybe I'm just being conservative) - does anyone know if this was typical for his mandolins?  

Jon

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## Jim Garber

I just got a notice that William Petit has this nice looking Fratelli Vinaccia. No further details on the site but I emailed to find out condition, price and other minutiae. I will report back. 

I am afraid it it definitely out of my league at the moment. Got to de-access that dross from my collection, like those guitars and replenish the BMAS account.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> I'm not convinced by the effectiveness of the bridge design anyway (though maybe I'm just being conservative) - does anyone know if this was typical for his mandolins?


This is a Loveri mandolin from Carlo M's site and is likely what the ebay one should look like. The bridge (tho truncated on the ends) is the std bone inset type. On the eBay one it also looks like the fretboard is inset into the body,tho it is a little difficult to tell from the photos.

It looks like the restoration on the ebay example was done quite neatly, but why in the world would they use laminated wood for the top? A real mystery.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Petit got back to me and the price is 2000 including 24 hour Fedex shipping to the US. Sounds pretty good for someone interested in such a thing.

Jim

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## Bob A

Well, the Calace Bros (1897) went for $1400. Not to me, alas, but I trust it'll be in a good home. Certainly a reasonable price (assuming it's not in need of repair).

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hello!

Here is a post from the BDZ Discussion Forum:

"Abgeschickt von Ermanno am 19 Juni, 2005 um 10:21:45

hello, I sell mandolino Embergher n╟ 2 year 1936, perfect one to play. For other information to write to erza_2@msn.com"

I don`t know who it is. I just know, that there are people here, that might be interested in this one.

Good luck!

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## Martin Jonas

Only two hours to go on this Guiseppe Vinaccia with maple bowl. Surprisingly low price so far (but the big hitters may be just around the corner).

And going from the sublime to the ridiculous: does anybody have a clue what this bowlback is all about. Looks ordinary enough, but what are the two extra tuners for? Looking at the nut sspacings, it seems to have been made into a 10-string at some stage and then converted back. Something wrong here, anyway.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

A few bidders in Italy (including Marco) and one in Taiwan have already asked questions. We will see what happens. This is a fairly plain one but I am sure that it is nice. 

It would be nice if one of us (not me... sigh!) could get it.

Martin? Bob? anyone else?

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Martin,
May I be the very first to congratulate you on that coup. Good deal, I hope. And I am looking fwd to reports after receiving it.

I did ask the seller for the additional photos about 10 minutes before the sale ended. Still looks good. Maple backed, which I imagine is rarer for these.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Thanks, Jim. This was very much a spontaneous bid -- I had no intention of going for it, but thought I can't just let it go for that when there were no further bids with five minutes to go. I'm still somewhat shell-shocked that I got it for what was a rather low-ball bid -- I was expecting Leuterius to have a much higher maximum. We've had Calace wrecks and no-names for more money than this reasonable-looking-if-plain Vinaccia. More news once I have it in my hands.

Unlike you, I didn't even get around to asking for those photos, so I'm relieved to hear that they look good (although of course one never knows until one has the instrument).

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Martin:
The only thing that is obvious from the additional photos is some veneer damage on the back of the peghead and the fact that the tuner plates are mismatched.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is the label for Martin's new acquisition.

Jim

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## Eugene

Congrats, Martin!

----------


## Martin Jonas

Thanks, Eugene. Also thanks to Jim for those photos. The veneer damage is trivial. Clearly, both sets of tuners are non-original, so at least some work has been done on this in the past (indicating that it was played and not just sitting in an attic somewhere for a century).

I had a look through past discussions to see what there is on Giuseppe. I see that Bob has one, rescued from oblivion by Tom Crandall, but otherwise there isn't too much. In the Vinaccia family tree thread, Eric has quoted Sparks as implying Giuseppe was competing with the Fratelli Vinaccia workshop (i.e. Achille and Gennaro V.) in the late 19th century. One page back in the present thread, Alex mentioned Pasquale, Gennaro and Gaetano V. as being at their peak in the 1890s, but didn't mention Giuseppe. Otherwise, not much out there. The label clearly draws on a family relation to one or the other of the Gaetanos (of which there were at least two: the earlier 1759 - c.1831 and the later around 1900). Suddenly, I have a keen interest in the convoluted Vinaccia family tree. At least, there seems to be more information out there than there is on Umberto Ceccherini...

Martin

----------


## Bob A

Way to go, Martin! Glad I didn't see it before you won - I'm deeply addicted to maple bowls, but my debt can't take another mandolin hit anyway. I'm eager to read your impressions when once you get it in play.

----------


## trebleclef528

Congratulations Martin.... I was tempted, but my Bank Balance would have gone into shock.
A very good price, I'm really surprised "Marco and Co" did'nt go further, I'll bet they are kicking themselves.
Hopefully I'll get a good look at this at the next LGMA mandolin weekend?

Regards,
Ian and Barbara

----------


## guitharsis

Oh my gosh! Congrats, Martin!

Doreen

----------


## dfxlr

Hi all

By the way, I am the winning buyer of that one mandolin Dan K was trying to get a couple of months ago. I bought the previous mandolin for a friend. Right now, the mandolin is in repair. It had a sunken top (which is why there was a piece of cardboard under the bridge which was on the pickguard). The neck was pretty straight. The people I sent the mandolin to for repair said that it is an American mandolin, made around the turn of the century. They also believe it Larson mandolin, complete with a Larson-style bridge. Anybody disagree? Here's the e-bay picture again. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....6397014

----------


## Jim Garber

That one, dfxlr, resembles very much the Stahl mandolin that appears on an anniversary poster for the Milwaukee Mandolin Orchestra, so I would say that the Larson connection is very possible.

I am curious what methods your luthier is using to fix the sunken top. Were there loose braces?

Jim

----------


## dfxlr

I have no idea. I will keep the board posted with details (if you'd like, although this sorta isn't the place for that...some may object). Do you have a photo of the poster?

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## Jim Garber

Here is a pic of the MMO poster. Unfortunately, it was in a corner of my office and there was a glare. In any case, you can see the resemblance.

Jim

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## dfxlr

Hmmm...they don't quite look the same. I think a subtle diffrerence is the bridge. Can you identify the bridge?

Sorry, really blurry photo. You'll also be able to see the bowed-in top.

----------


## Jim Garber

Actually the bridges do look similar (not exact) to me. Bone insert on ebony base. I was comparing the pickguard shape and the shape of the end of the fretboard. There are many variants even in the same style number of L&H brands. They farmed out some to makers such as the Larsons and some they made in their own factories.

You will find many similar variants in other manufacturers esp if you start looking at the minutiae. Even Gibson and Martin varied their models. I have yet to come across a high-end Martin bowlback that had the exactly the same inlays.

Moveable bridges aare not a good identifying feature anyway, primarily because they are removeable. Hard to say in amny cases which are the original parts in that case.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Congrats martinjonas!

Here´s another Giuseppe Vinaccia. For your interest by the way, there is a detailed description and picture (Pp. 42 & 43) of a _Giuseppe_ Vinaccia in my catalogue/book ´De Mandoline & Gitaar door de eeuwen heen´. #


And a Giuseppe Calace. #Click here (to be had for 600 Euro).


Best, 

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here´s another Giuseppe Vinaccia.


Aha! Maybe a clue to one of the brands imported by the mysterious Tipaldi Brothers. One Tipaldi labeled example I have in my jpeg collection does bear resemblance (not exact!) to this one. Too bad that this Vinaccia seems to bear the scars of being sat-upon. Poor abused mandolin!

Jim

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## lucho

Does anybody knows anything about any Vinaccia Fratelli 23 rosewood ribs mando signed by Carlo Munier. Even though I had read CM was Pasquale Vinaccia's nephew, but I didn't know he made mandolins at the Vinaccia workshop... Are any of those made by him as good and valuable as those by his uncle?.

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## Jim Garber

A mildly unusual Demeglio with an asymmetrical scratchplate. Photos are not great but you can get an idea. Might be a bargain because of that.

Jim

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## Bob A

Carlo Munier left Napoli when he was 22 years old, according to Sparks. That would have been around 1881. After that time he seemed to have been engaged in composition and concertising. I doubt he was engaged in building instruments during that period of his life; this would not preclude his signing a label, of course. Perhaps it was an instrument he favored? At any rate, I'd love to see a photo of such an instrument, or read a report regarding it from one who has played it.

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## Martin Jonas

This de Meglio-esque bowl is labelled "Christofaro". #Same guy as the mandolin method book?

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> This de Meglio-esque bowl is labelled "Christofaro". #Same guy as the mandolin method book?


Funny, but there is no mention of "Christofaro" por "Cristofaro" in Sparks, tho he seems to be the author of one of the more common methods. 

The method author, tho is *F.* Cristofaro whereas the mandolin maker is *E.* Cristofaro. [Label below from an example from 1900].

Most of these I have seen have not been Demeglio clones but with assymmetrical scratchplates and fishtail headstocks. Often they have strange shaped sound holes as well.

Jim

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## Eugene

> This de Meglio-esque bowl is labelled "Christofaro". #Same guy as the mandolin method book?


As Jim said, different guy. ...But this looks like no other Cristofaro mandolin I've seen.

The author of the persistent method is often misspelled in later editions. I have a late 19th-c. White edition attributed to "Christofaro." I don't have Sparks on hand in the office, but it seems remarkable that there is no reference to the author of such a prominent method.

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## Jim Garber

According to Bone: Ferdinando Cristofaro was born in Naples in 1846 and died in 1890. All the mandolins I have seen were dated 1900 or later. He did live in Paris also (like the maker) and was considered to be the premier mandolinist of the day. He was notable for writing the first truly serious method for the classical mandolin. According to Bojn, it was Cristofaro who first introduced the mandolin to the English public. 

BTW his favourite mandolin was one constructed by Luigi Salsedo to Cristofaro's specifications. 

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> Here´s another Giuseppe Vinaccia.


Ah, that poor sat-upon GV mandolin did quite well for the seller: $492.50. This one will need considerable luthier magic to become again playable IMHO. Yours, Martin, looks to me to be much closer with a few £'s worth of luthier TLC, should be up and running.

Jim

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## Eugene

> [Ferdinando Cristofaro] was notable for writing the first truly serious method for the classical mandolin.


This isn't really a fair assertion given the fine methods of the mid-18th c. (Leone, e.g.), Bortolazzi's of the early 19th c., etc. Was this printed in some edition of the Cristofaro method that you own, Jim? Bone showers the Cristofaro method with praise, but my edition of Bone's text doesn't credit it as the first.

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## Jim Garber

> Originally Posted by  (jgarber @ July 05 2005, 14:56)
> 
> [Ferdinando Cristofaro] was notable for writing the first truly serious method for the classical mandolin.
> 
> 
> This isn't really a fair assertion given the fine methods of the mid-18th c. (Leone, e.g.), Bortolazzi's of the early 19th c., etc. #Was this printed in some edition of the Cristofaro method that you own, Jim? #Bone showers the Cristofaro method with praise, but my edition of Bone's text doesn't credit it as the first.


I may have misinterpretted the following:



> To the Neapolitans, Cristofaro introduced a new and completely advanced method of playing  accustomed as they were to seeing the instrument in the hands of strolling players and used chiefly for accompanying popular songs.


Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> Ah, that poor sat-upon GV mandolin did quite well for the seller: $492.50. This one will need considerable luthier magic to become again playable IMHO. Yours, Martin, looks to me to be much closer with a few £'s worth of luthier TLC, should be up and running.


I would have thought so, too -- I paid $230 more, but I'm fairly sure that the extensive extra repairs necessary on the other one will more than make up that difference.

Although both seem fairly plain, there are quite a few differences between the two GVs considering they are only two years apart. The sat-upon one has the Vinaccia-style pegs in the tailpiece and closed tuners; I have open tuners and a metal tailpiece. The tuners are non-original, but it doesn't look like the original ones were closed. Tailpiece may of course also be non-original but doesn't really look it. One thing they have in common is that the label is glued in at an odd angle; maybe a quirk of Giuseppe's.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"To the Neapolitans, Cristofaro introduced a new and completely advanced method of playing  accustomed as they were to seeing the instrument in the hands of strolling players and used chiefly for accompanying popular songs."

Dang! I KNEW I had somehow missed a critical rung in my Darwinian evolution!  

On topic: best of luck, Martin! I think you (vis a vis the Vinaccia) are in good shape. As for the sat-upon, alas...

----------


## Jim Garber

1961 Calace 16bis. The Seller also has a moderately ornate Monzino.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Very nice, both. If the prices stay reasonable, we may have another convert (or two) to the Order of the Bowl. Alas, however: the likelihood is rather that, instead of converts, such instruments will be acquired by #_addicts_. #

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## Bob A

(Scratch, scratch, sniff, twitch . . . ) Ah resemble that remark, podner!

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## Martin Jonas

This no-name bowl seems rather fancy, with fluted ribs, front-mounted engraved tuners and a very fancy hard case. May come into the pigs-with-lipstick cetegory, of course, and has a worrying mention of a botched repair at the headstock (but no photo showing it).


This is the first mandocello bowl I can remember coming up in a long while, sold by our own Ian.

Also, the usual complement of Stridentes and Puglisis in varying condition -- there always seem to be several of those on Ebay UK at any one time.

Martin

----------


## Eugene

Getting back to dfxlr's new mandolin: congrats, it is very attractive. I'm also keen to hear how the restoration goes. I am almost absolutely certain it's not a Larson brothers piece but by Lyon & Healy. Note the ribs: it looks as though there are maybe four divisions (inlaid faux spacers) per actual rib to give the impression of a higher rib count. This was a common ploy of L&H on their nicer mid-range lines, like American Conservatory. The soundboard with the very long post-cant face is classic L&H. If original, the squared off bridge also is consistent with L&H. The headstock profile is identical to L&H's American Conservatory line and the engraved position markers smack strongly of L&H to boot.

The fluted no-name you've posted, Martin, looks a whole lot like some Fratelli Vinaccia. Check out this Vinaccia sold in Gruhn's distant past and featured in some of his texts. Of course, knocking off Vinaccia shops was pretty common for mandolin builders at the time this was built. The fingerboard and soundhole profile does look somehow coarser than I'd expect of a real Vinaccia shop, but the engraving looks very nice.

----------


## Jim Garber

The Stahl Solo 8 from the aforementioned Milwaukee Mandolin Orchestra poster is now on eBay.

Jim

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## Plamen Ivanov

Klaus Knorr mandolin in the Classifieds:

La Raggianta

Good luck!

----------


## Jim Garber

An attractive German-made mandolin by Schutze-Marke for sale on the Randy Osborne's Fine Fretted site. I don't know why, but I am not so sure that is it ca. 1900. For some reason, it appears to me to be later. Perhaps, just my gut about German instruments.

I like the fact that it is low-key on the front but fancy carved on the bowl.

Anyone know this maker? Ian?

BTW Randy also has 4 copies of the Philip Bone book. It looks like the 1972 edition (one I have). Price is not too bad for those who need one.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

This one is a conundrum. The seller says the label says Miroglio, Catania but the seller insists it is Neapolitan.

Definitely the "pig in lipstick" category but I sort of like the asymetrical, frightening scratchplate, tho I hate the MOP fretboard.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Jim -- "Schutzmarke" (as it's spelled nowadays) is just the German for "trade mark". The maker's name appears to be "V.W. M." (the initials of the luthier, perhaps), unless there is more writing on the invisible lower part of the label. I agree that this is a rather beautiful carved bowl with an understated front.

That Miroglio, on the other hand, is vile. Unlike you, I can't see redeeming features in the scratchplate.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> Unlike you, I can't see redeeming features in the scratchplate.


I am not sure about any redeeming features... I like it _because_ it is so bizarre. I certainly wouldn't want to own it.

I do enjoy the oddball things that instrument designers have come up with over the years. That is why I like this thread.

Jim

----------


## dfxlr

Dude, that thing is fugly. FUGLY. Actually, I should watch what I say...the future owner or current biddler might be reading this. On a more positive side, it looks like it was made in the 70's style. Perhaps the owner is fond of this look. I can certainly appreciate it after a while - and it is very unique.

----------


## guitharsis

It is unique, but not my taste either. Many people, other than those of us on this board, liked it a lot. It sold for a good price!

----------


## onthefiddle

A mandobass has come up for sale on ebay.co.uk 
The seller conjectures that it may be a Stahl. What do our North American brethren think?

Jon

----------


## Daymando

> A mandobass has come up for sale on ebay.co.uk 
> The seller conjectures that it may be a Stahl. What do our North American brethren think?
> 
> Jon


It certainly favors the Larson Bros mandocello we have in the Dayton Mandolin Orchestra quite closely. 'Twould be interesting to hear the quality of sound it produces.

-Allen.

----------


## Jim Garber

Mike Schroeder's last Calace (he had three others!) is back in the classifieds. He may have lowered the price. This is a player's instrument, as far as I know as the fretboard has been replaced with an extended one, new tuners and refinish. I think he may have lowered the price.

Jim

----------


## Onesound

I was wondering if anyone has any comments on this: #bowlback post on Ebay. #Looks to be in pretty good condition.

Thanks

----------


## Bob A

Since better minds have not rung in on the ebay bowlback, I'd have to say it does have condition issues. The crack at the end of the boel is not pretty, the previous repair on the face crack is kinda dingy looking, the bridge has no saddle, leaving me to suspect the action, and the way the finish has been worn off the pickguard makes me wonder why they put finish over the pickgueard in the first place. 

The semi-Embergher looking pickguard coupled with a Calace-esque peghead makes it a sort of mongrel instrument. (I own and am very fond of a somewhat similar mongrel mando, but mine has a label and sounds great. What this one will sound like is amystery, which can be resolved by plonking down cash on purchase and for repair. Still, if it stays cheap, it might prove worthwhile).

----------


## Onesound

Hi Bob,

I kind of came to the same conclusion based upon the lack of bidding interest and low price. Course, bidding often heats up in the last hour, but I'm going to resist and wait for something that looks a little safer (better condition) and a hoefully a better investment. :-)

----------


## Onesound

Adams Brothers and a Suzuki on Ebay. #I realize they are probably not collectors quality, but would they be decent players at a reasonable price?

----------


## Jim Garber

Okay... I will confess...

After Martin's lucky experience I figured that this mislabelled F. Vinaccia on ebay might be a steal. It was at a lowball bid for quite some time until the last 30 minutes when the snipers attacked and it ended at 2840.

Nice looking one with beautiful fluted back, missing a few ornamentatl parts as far as I can tell. Oh well.... someday.

I think Martin might have gotten the deal of the century.

Jim

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Puglisi in suspicious condition for the high "buy it now" price of 399.99 $. Looks good, but...

----------


## Martin Jonas

> After Martin's lucky experience I figured that this mislabelled F. Vinaccia on ebay might be a steal. It was at a lowball bid for quite some time until the last 30 minutes when the snipers attacked and it ended at 2840.
> 
> Nice looking one with beautiful fluted back, missing a few ornamentatl parts as far as I can tell. Oh well.... someday.
> 
> I think Martin might have gotten the deal of the century.


That one is quite a bit fancier than mine, though, and by the time that mine is in playing condition, the difference in price will be a bit less. Still, I think I got a good deal (especially considering that the ugly Miroglio went for the same price as my Vinaccia).

That Fratelli looks in decent condition, and with the fluted back, the price looks roughly what one might expect for an upper-range Vinaccia. On the other hand, the German item description says that the instrument is "freshly shellacked", which sends alarms bells ringing. The photo isn't terribly conclusive, but it does look rather shiny and I think it may have an inappropriate finish on the soundboard.

Martin

----------


## Bob A

Too bad about the Puglisi. In better condition I'd be tempted.

Too bad about the Vinaccia. I was pulling for Jim, but it was not to be. While the price is about what one should expect, the auction price, given the nature of things, should be closer to wholesale than retail, especially in light of possible problems. 

I've never seen or heard of the Adams brothers. Generally there are drawbacks to Suzukis; their necks tend to warp, and they tend to be over-built otherwise, with a corresponding reduction in sound quality - a bit thin and tinny-sounding. I've not handled a lot of them, though, so there might be good examples around.

----------


## keef

> Getting back to dfxlr's new mandolin: congrats, it is very attractive. #I'm also keen to hear how the restoration goes. #I am almost absolutely certain it's not a Larson brothers piece but by Lyon & Healy. #Note the ribs: it looks as though there are maybe four divisions (inlaid faux spacers) per actual rib to give the impression of a higher rib count. #This was a common ploy of L&H on their nicer mid-range lines, like American Conservatory. #The soundboard with the very long post-cant face is classic L&H. #If original, the squared off bridge also is consistent with L&H. #The headstock profile is identical to L&H's American Conservatory line and the engraved position markers smack strongly of L&H to boot.


Great observations Eugene - I agree that this thing yells "L&H" FWIW.

----------


## Eugene

Labeling a Vinaccia as a Pinaecia, seemingly very similar to Panacea, must have been very tempting to mandolinists frustrated by technical issues.

----------


## Onesound

I just spotted this one Mario Casella on Ebay. #I don't know anything about it, but looks to be in reasonable condition.

----------


## onthefiddle

Here is a Mandolin by the Neapolitan Violin and Mandolin maker Carlo Loveri. It looks like a much nicer example than the previous one I remember coming up on eBay UK.

Jon

----------


## Jim Garber

I am not sure what is going on here. It looks like an "allieve" of Vinaccia with the "restoration" done by one of Taiwan's multiplying inlay artists. I have to check my labels to see what "SALVATO PERNA" refers to. 

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Well, whatever it once was (and without a proper shot of the label that's difficult to answer), it now is a dog's breakfast. I've seen the two holes in front of the bridge on Calaces, but not Vinaccia (or their pupils) -- it's very suspicious that they are clearly not level with each other. Not for me, I'm afraid.

Martin

----------


## onthefiddle

jgarber @ Aug. 01 2005, 08:29
"I am not sure what is going on here."

Quite! 

If this was a Vinaccia, they have certainly massively devalued the instrument by this treatment - I can only hope that this is reflected in the auction price, and that they thereby learn not to repeat this.

The cost of restoring this instrument to its original state would probably approach its full potential value - which means that it has no real value as a Vinaccia currently. That is assuming that the major part of the fabric of the instrument is still original (e.g. the soundboard hasn't been replaced).

Jon

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## Bob A

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/mandolino-mandolin-1898-vinaccia_W0QQitemZ7339721644QQcategoryZ10179QQssPa  geNameZWDVWQQrdZ
1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's</a> another possible Vinaccia for those interested. Looks like the top of the peghead has lost a bit.

----------


## Bob A

The Loveri is of some interest if the price stays low. Carlo M has one on his site that he says is "cheap", but despite my series of emails he has never quoted a price. He also sent an email regarding a 1954 Embergher 5bis the other day, and has not responded with a price (not that it matters - it's out of the question for me at this time anyway. But all mando-masochists tease their disease with quotes like these).

----------


## Martin Jonas

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BEAUTIFUL-ANTIQUE-MANDOLIN-NAPLES-ITALY-1895_W0QQitemZ7341520738QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcm
dZViewItem" target="_blank">Angara & d'Isanto</a> on Ebay UK. Rather spectacularly misspelled transcription of the label, so maybe not all the usual suspects will spot this one. 

Another transcriptions error on this Giovanni de Meglio, the seller of which latched onto the "Figlio" part of the name. I think this is the first actual de Meglio I've seen without any inlay on the scratchplate. 

This Stridente looks quite nice.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

I don't know about the "usual suspects" but this current high bidder seems to be bidding on just about any and all Italian mandolins lately. He/she seems to get many of them as well. Never underestimate...

Jim

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## Jim Garber

A too-ornate historic <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-MANDOLIN-BY-JOSEPH-BOHMANN-MADE-IN-1901-RARE_W0QQitemZ7340551443QQcategoryZ359QQss
PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Joseph Bohmann</a>. It says on the pickguard that is was made for the Pan-American Exposition in Buffalo NY.

For the collector, I would imagine. The fretboard is blinding.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

A rather questionable <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/eine-alte-Mandoline-mit-Zettel_W0QQitemZ3778073243QQcategoryZ10179QQssPage  NameZWD1VQQrdZ1Q
QcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Embergher-labelled mandolin</a>. I highly doubt it but curious what others think.




> eine alte Mandoline mit Zettel "Luigi Embergher Roma anno1907". Das Instrument ist in hervorragendem Zustand und selbstverständlich spielbereit. Ob der Zettel echt ist kann ich allerdings nicht garantieren. Auf die Kopfplatte ist ein Metallplättchen geschraubt "Wolf und Comp, Musikinstrumente aller Art, Klingenthal - Markhausen (Sachsen) (Böhmen)".
> 
> An old mandolin with slip of paper "Luigi Embergher Romany anno1907". The instrument is in outstanding condition and obvious ready for playing. Whether the slip of paper really can be I to be sure do not guarantee. On the head disk, a Metallplättchen is screwed "wolf and Comp, music instruments of all type, Klingenthal - mark houses (saxon) (Böhmen)".


Jim

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## Bob A

You can definitely play the Bohmann in the dark. The armrest looks like an addon, perhaps - huge and clunky.

So far as the "Embergher" is concerned, I'm sure the tuners are as old as the instrument, which is about the only thing I believe. At least the seller is offering a strong hint that it is not what it is labelled to be. I suspect it is German in origin.

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## billkilpatrick

i don't feel up to scanning the previous 54 pages devoted to this subject so if i'm repeating an item, please excuse me.

much against the advise of those who know better, i just emptied my paypal account and bought one of those cheapy bowl backs. i have no idea what i'll be receiving but in the spirit of stringy fellowship and to boldly blow (meager savings) where no one else is silly enough to, i'll be posting photos and what i hope will be surprised and delighted commentary when it arrives.

one small step ... - bill

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## Jim Garber

Bill:
Which mandolin did you buy? I have a feeling... Musikalia? 

Jim

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## Jim Garber

These Vinaccias seem to be coming out in droves. Here is yet another one. Judging the posted emails from interested bidders, I would say that there are a few serious ones, including our friend Bazzicotto. Anyone know this person. He/she is seriously interested in all Italian mandolins.

Jim

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## billkilpatrick

jim - the only identification i have - and i'm not sure if it's a name or simply a statement - is "luteria italiano." i'll be pouring over it when it arrives. plenty of time yet for ... dark foreboding and pessimism.

bazzicotto drove me to buy this, by the way. i'd been looking at various budget bowl backs and selected one in the u.k.. he had a low bid in for it and when i placed a higher bid, he made a counter bid immediately. i tried twice more but each time he bounced back in a flash with a counter bid. i realized he/she must have one of those automatic bidding programs. they're insidious, those. if you get caught up in the bidding you can go way over your limit in a matter of seconds.

ciao - bill

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## Jim Garber

Hi Bill:
Here's how eBay bidding works. You bid your highest. If someone bids against you at the next highest increment, eBay will automatically raise your bid until the other person outbids you. What I have seen of this person is that he/she bids a certain amount immediately and seems to stop at that amount which must be what hi/her budget allows. There does seem to be a limit.

Most folks with sniping software set it up in advance and then th4e software will bid at the very last moment. If the bid is high enough, then the high bidder gets outbid with no recourse to bid again.

Sometimes, it makes more sense just to bid your best bid at the beginning and then walk away. Of course, you also can lose by one small increment. "Gee, I could have won that for another $5..." Ah, the joys of eBay!

Jim

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## Bob A

From where I sit, the only successful strategy is to play the last minute snipe game. This keeps the other party from remorsefully increasing his bid and overtopping you. If they've already overbid you you have no recourse, but to think that you could have won by bidding five dollars higher is an illusion. You'll never know the extent of your adversaries' folly unless you put in a ridiculously high bid, but then of course you're stuck with your million-dollar mandolin.

There's a lot to be said for the entertainment value of the old-fashioned auction, where you get a bit more psychology involved; of course, there too emotion can lead you to perdition, but you have a real-time moderator instead of a stopwatch, and you may even see your adversary.

It's rather colder bidding against the clock, especially with newbies upping their bids a dollar at a time. They're most often the ones who'll mess up your carefully thought-out bid by pecking away at it, panicking and driving the price to ridiculous levels to not let the object of their desire get away. Don't ask me how I know this.

So Bill, post a link to your new toy, or let us know the ebay item number, and we'll congratulate and commiserate together.

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## billkilpatrick

this was strange. i'd confirm my bid, receive notice that i was the highest bidder and almost immediately be out bid again - all in a matter of seconds. i re-entered with a higher bid because i thought the computer hadn't read his (bazzicotto) maxim offer properly. i increased my bid by a couple of pounds (£), was immediately out bid, repeated the process and was immediately outbid again. my "bargain" mandolin was turning into something else.

i was so frustrated by this - plus the fact that a lot of these old bowl backs look to be in terrible shape ... it took me forever to finally decide on this one - that i went to an on-line music store here in italy and bought a new one, direct - sensa ebay.

nice, optimistic, pro-noid thoughts, please while i wait for delivery ...  

ciao - bill

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## Jim Garber

> There's a lot to be said for the entertainment value of the old-fashioned auction, where you get a bit more psychology involved; of course, there too emotion can lead you to perdition, but you have a real-time moderator instead of a stopwatch, and you may even see your adversary.


It has been a while since I was at one of those. Many folks like to stay in the back to do their bidding and see the competition, however I got one my prize mandolins, my Bacon Artist, at an auction by sitting right up front with my paddle hand straight up in the air. Another bidder told me after that I looked pretty determined (I was). 

As for eBay, you can see exactly what happened in a particular auction by clicking the bid history link. It will tell you when a person placed which bid.

Jim

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## onthefiddle

Good luck with your new mandolin Bill, I'm looking forward to seeing some pictures of it.

I just stumbled upon a site that I had not come across before. While there are no bowlbacks listed for sale, there are plenty of interest: De Musica - Fondazione Antonio Monzino. There are some oddities among their number - including a mandolin with eight strings in four courses with pegs. It has the body, and bridge, of a Lombard instrument - there is no mention of tuning or stringing.

Jon

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## Daymando

> As for eBay, you can see exactly what happened in a particular auction by clicking the bid history link. It will tell you when a person placed which bid.
> 
> Jim


Thanks Jim - you've taught me something new about eBay this morning.

-Allen.
(_Member of the Bowl_-elect as soon as the "Fine Antique Italian Lapini" arrives...  )

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## Jim Garber

> (_Member of the Bowl_-elect as soon as the "Fine Antique Italian Lapini" arrives...  )


Ah, Allen, congratulations on that one. I was watching that auction. It looks like a nice one in good shape. I am looking fwd to hearing your impressions of it when it arrives.

Jim

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## Eugene

Congrats, Allen. #It does look nice. #I'm keen to see it in person. #It strikes me as similar to some Stridentes of that era.

I'm keen to see images of yours too, Bill. #Can you post reference to the auction?

I am more convinced than ever that Bohmann was a real...uhmmm...eccentric.

Wow, Jon. #I wasn't aware of a Monzino foundation. #Of course, that shop was pretty well know for gut-strung mandolins (Brescian and Lombard types) in the late 1800s. #I've never seen such a thing as that 8-string beast. #I think I have a copy of a Monzino mandolin method somewhere. #(Speaking of which, I still owe you a heap of xeroxes, and that is still occupying my thoughts. #One day I'll get those posted to you.)

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## Jim Garber

Jon:
 Thanks for the link to the Monzino site. It looks like that 8 string thing was called a Mandolino Arpa and built by Galimberi. It is strange that there are examples left out of the Analytical Index. There does seem to be much information lacking in general, like dates of manufacture etc. Still an interesting site. 

Has anyone been there to visit? Looks like it is in Milano.

Jim

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## billkilpatrick

nice looking collection but i haven't been - milano is a long way away.

never noticed it before but a row of violins doesn't provide much in the way of variation but a row of mandolins is made up of distinct individuals.

hmmmmm - bill

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## onthefiddle

billkilpatrick @Aug. 09 2005, 12:18:

"never noticed it before but a row of violins doesn't provide much in the way of variation but a row of mandolins is made up of distinct individuals"

Nearly everyone says that! 
You'll have to take my word for it - Violins are all individuals, with very different characters - every single one!  
Visually the differences between Violins are much more subtle than than those between Mandolins though. That's partially due to the way they developed, and partially due to the conservatism (with a small c) of the string orchestral world. 
Those small subtle differences can make a big difference to the sound of the instruments.

Eugene - I'll be very interested to see it, but don't rush to get anything in the post. My time is filled with a heap of projects at the moment, so there's no big rush.

I had heard of the collection at the Castello Sforzesco di Milano before, but was completely unaware of the Monzino connection, or the website. I'm hoping to visit Italy again in the next year or two, so I'll have to make a visit to Milan a priority.

Jon

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## Jim Garber

Hmmmm... checking thru that index, I don;t think that the numbers correspond to the photos, so I may be wrong about that 8 string mandolino. For instance #51 says "Strumento esotico" but it looks like a std bowlback.

Strange site, obviously needs updating and more info. The last posting of events was in 2003.

Even weirder, take a look at this. At first I thought it was three instruments, but I not entirely sure that it isn't one conglomeration. 



Jim

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## Eugene

It's one. Richard (I think) once posted a nice detailed image of that one...errr...trinity.

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## etbarbaric

Yeah.. but they have to smash 'em together real fast to make 'em stick like that... Don't try it at home... :-)

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## dfxlr

Ah, as a Theologian, the Truine instrument blows my mind...

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## Jim Garber

> These Vinaccias seem to be coming out in droves. Here is yet another one.


I heard from this seller who was curious why so much interest in this mandolin. He also told me that he bought it a few years ago for about £8. He wil be a very happy man, I am sure, when this auction is over.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is a rather beat up looking Demeglio as sold by Barnes and Mullins.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> I heard from this seller who was curious why so much interest in this mandolin. He also told me that he bought it a few years ago for about £8. He wil be a very happy man, I am sure, when this auction is over.


Lovely wooden case with that one, too. #Let's see how how it goes. #The Angara & d'Isanto went for £325, which is a highish price, considering that it looks to need new tuners (or at least new buttons) which won't be easy even before we get into hidden faults.

Both of the ongoing Vinaccia auctions are hovering around £300 at the moment and may or may not take off into the stratosphere. #Will be interesting to observe, considering that the <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/mandolino-mandolin-1898-vinaccia_W0QQitemZ7339721644QQcategoryZ10179QQssPa  geNameZWDVWQQrdZ

&lt;br&gt;1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">alleged Vinaccia</a> that Bob posted about made only $505. #A shot of the label would have been a good investment for the seller, methinks, so that we could have know whether it was a Fratelli, a Giuseppe or one of the Allievi. The price is about right for an Angara & d'Isanto or such, but low for a full Vinaccia.

Martin

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## Daymando

In anticipating Sr. Lapini's arrival fairly soon, I'm considering appropriate strings to have on hand -- so that I'm _properly_ ready to assume the duties and responsibilities as a member of the esteemed _Order of the Bowl_. # #Being a medium flat-wound preferer by nature, what gauges in the light-to-medium category work well? .011/.015/.024/.033 perhaps?

-Allen.

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## Jim Garber

If you are using Thomastiks. I would go for the Weich (lightest gauge). Not sure what other brand flatwounds there are. Which ones did you have in mind?

Personally I would use Dogals or Lenzner Consorts. What mandolins have you played up til now and were they bowlbacks? IMHO the bowlbacks are a different breed. A guy i know has a Pandini like mine but he strung it with Thomastiks and I didn't like the sound.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Regarding a preference for flatwounds, the Lenzners are ground after winding (like the FT74s) and are really rather comfortable on the fingers. I'd go for them over TI Weichs.

Martin

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## onthefiddle

This instrument seems to be attracting a lot of attention on eBay UK.
The seller describes it as a "VINTAGE MADALIN / MANDOCHELLO NOT TO SURE WHAT THIS IS", my best guess is that it is a Greek Laouto - perhaps you could confirm that Victor? Also, I'm not sure of the tuning of a Laouto - perhaps it's effectively a very similair instrument to a Mandola to play?

Jon

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## chinatogalway

Gorgeous mandolin for the classic's Here.

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## Daymando

> If you are using Thomastiks. I would go for the Weich (lightest gauge). Not sure what other brand flatwounds there are. Which ones did you have in mind?


I've thought about going with TI lights (since I do like TIs), but two of the last four sets I've acquired of TI mediums [for my Eastman and Odessa] have had the need for E & A string replacements in under 2 weeks due to rusting/pitting. (Perhaps it's a fluke, but an irritation none-the-less. Earlier sets have lasted as much as 8 mos with normal practice/playing before hinting at a need for replacement, much less needing it outright.)

I haven't decided yet whether to stick with TIs, or try Argentines, Dougals, Lenzners, or possibly Ted E.'s new JM-11 [Labella] set (since I can get those fairly quickly into my hands over the others). While my preference is with flatwound, they're not exclusive...especially with a new (to me) instrument. GHS, D'Addario and a couple of other brands I'm not remembering off-the-top are available locally, while the others would be delivery orders.

-Allen.

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## Eugene

GHS "Classical" strings are pretty short lived. #I've pieced together D'Addario sets to go down to 0.009" on e" and liked the results; you can probably get away with a set to 0.010". #You might want to try the Black Diamond reissue sets, although they tend to be heavy in the bass.

I favor the Dogal set RW-92b because they are not hard to get and last almost forever (their grade of carbon steel approaches stainless). #Dogal's do start life sounding a bit stringent, but they mature with play in a week or so. #Scoring a set of Dogal will require a call to Classic Bows in CA: 619-282-2010.

For me, the rich, sparkling quality of bowlback tone is what distinguishes them from the Gibson emulators and why they are worthy of pursuit. #The tone of flat-wound strings is a fine tone, but I don't think anybody could describe it as "sparkling." #You really should consider a decent round-wound set, especially Lenzner or Dogal, to experience at least once the kind of tone this would have had when used as a new instrument, Allen.

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## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"...my best guess is that it is a Greek Laouto - perhaps you could confirm that Victor?"

Yup: it's a Greek laouto alright. Please note that this type of instrument, with its glued-on "mustache-bridge", is designed for VERY light stringing, and will most certainly NOT withstand the strain of mandocello strings! Whoever acquires this, caveat!

On laouto-tunings: there are three distinct _types_ of this instrument, with the following, re-entrant tunings:

Aegean: cc'-Gg-dd'-aa 
Cretan: Gg-Dd-Aa-ee 
Politiko: (A)A-dd-aa-d'd'

The specimen referenced is, ahm... not _too_ attractive; a mint-condition Cretan was floating about last spring for about $900; a lower-end, "Aegean" type I played last week in Athens stood at about 500 euro (always negotiable, haggle-till-you-die, of course  )

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## John Craton

Trebleclef528 is listing a 1910 <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-Italian-Bowl-Back-Mandolin-Giovani-De-Meglio_W0QQitemZ7342649630QQcategoryZ10179QQssP
ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">De Meglio</a>. Needs some work, but the bid price (for now) is still quite low. I've bought from Trebleclef before, and his descriptions are very thorough and precise. Worth looking at.

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## Jim Garber

Trebleclef528 is Ian P. Steele, an active poster on our list, a mandolin educator in Scotland and an all-around good guy. 

Jim

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## John Craton

> Trebleclef528 is Ian P. Steele, an active poster on our list, a mandolin educator in Scotland and an all-around good guy.


Indeed he is! We've never met, but I've corresponded with him before and he is most helpful and pleasant. To say he's an all-around good guy is to state the obvious as he is, after all, a Scot

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## billkilpatrick

got my cheapie bowl-back yesterday and i hope this isn't where you(se) and i part company...

there are little imperfections here and there and it's definately a "low cost" instrument. its sound will be improved with a better set of strings and continued play but what i mean to say is ...

it's ok - i got what i paid for and more - i got a bowl back! there's nothing to indicate where it was made: no brand name on the tail piece or peg board and the inside is coated with strips of brown paper and nothing else.

the reason we may part company is because, while i may have very little to compare it with, i have tried a few pricey "antique" mandolins in various antique markets here in italy (arrezzo's is formidable) and have to say that there's not a lot of difference - aside from unknown origin, inexpensive price and a bullet-proof looking glaze.

i promised photos but i'm not going to do it - you'ld only zero in on the blemishes and while i wish they weren't there, i don't think they're $100 blemishes or whatever it is that distinguishes mine from yours.

me and my mutt - bill

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## Eugene

Please, Bill, my mandolins range from ca. 1835 to ca. 1915 with only one exception. They are wall-to-wall blemishes. I've scored some very nice, entry-level, playable American brand-name bowlbacks for as little as in the $120s. I can definitely distinguish between the sound of a $200 ca. 1910 Vega and a $200 ca. 1970 Suzuki laquered to survive the next ice age; all have passed my care at one time or another. All told, I am wholly accustomed to blemish, and I *deserve* to see your mandolin. Don't be stingy, now; share your love. I expect to see your post in the "Post a picture of your bowlback" thread and soon.

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## Jim Garber

If anything, Bill, I thought we folks in this area are the leats judgemental. Hey, some us even like charangos 

I am always atttracted to good sounding and playing instruments of the less expensive variety. I would not be afraid of any comparisons to Vinaccias and the like. I am curious what you got and how playable it is. Aside from factory workmanship some inexpensive instruments can sound and play quite n icely with perhaps a little setup work.

Jim

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## billkilpatrick

oh ... alright.

if i can wrestle the digital camera away from my one and only womandolin i'll pop them in the post.

i'm sanding down a piece of bone to replace the existing nut and will probably reduce the height of the bridge a little as well. if "set up" involves more than this, please let me know.

i'd forgotten (choke) what a big-hearted bunch you are. you took me in (snork) when i only had a charango to my name (blub).

betterforthat - bill

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## etbarbaric

Not so fast! We'll take you in on one condition Bill... You tell us how you ended up living the good life in Tuscany growing grapes and/or olives while the rest of us slog away at the daily grind...

Perhaps I have over-romanticized your situation in my mind?

:-)

Eric

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## guitharsis

Congrats, Bill on your new/old mandolin. #Lucky you being able to shop around in Italy!

I brought my DeMeglio back from a vacation home to compare to my Stridente. #Big difference. #They are both strung with Lenzner Consort strings. #The Stridente has a nice tone, but a bit "clangy". #The DeMeglio has a sweet sound, even without the brass insert on the bridge, and is easier to play because of a wider fretboard and lower action. #Interesting.

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## Bob A

This <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Raffaele-Calace-Figlio-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ7343874942QQcategoryZ10179QQssPa  geNameZWDVWQQrdZ1
QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Calace</a> is listed on ebay for $450. So far. Has a repaired neck break. Still, I'd be tempted if I didn't have one.

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## Plamen Ivanov

Another Calace for sale. For details you can write to Frau Birgit Sommer:

E-mail: BirgitSommerArt@gmx.de

I`m not quite sure, if she speaks English. I asked her for the price. She said, that she cannot say the price at this moment, but will let me know in near future. 
Doesn`t look to be in a good condition, but it`s a Calace anyway. I have few pictures more, so if anybody is interested, I can forward them.

Good luck!

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## billkilpatrick

here are some photos of the cheapie bowl-back i bought recently here in italy (eur 120.00). #mp3's are out of the question but it sounds ok to me - loud! #most of the photos accentuate its defects (cheap tail piece; strips of paper lining bowl; dent on fingerboard; tacky looking floral decoration on pick guard; poorly finished fret ends ... a case of negativity winning through, yet again, i'm afraid. #too early to say if the neck will warp. #on the up side: the bowl is well made, the neck is made from one piece of wood which appears to be hard. #impossible to say if soundboard is solid or not but growth lines on the surface are tight.

i have to take me hands off it to type ...

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## billkilpatrick

another ...

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## billkilpatrick

another ...

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## billkilpatrick

another ...

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## billkilpatrick

another ...

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## billkilpatrick

another ...

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## billkilpatrick

another ...

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## billkilpatrick

last one ...

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## billkilpatrick

needless to say, i had to fiddle with the set-up to get it to sound right. my only hope is that the aspic it appears to be covered with isn't all that's holding it together.

sorry to have taken up all this space - bill

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## onthefiddle

Hi Bill,

Instruments never normally come properly setup, unless you get them from a specialist shop or an individual luthier. The frets are part of the setup, and it doesn't surprise me that they need a little attention. I'm sure that it's well within your capabilities to smooth any rough ends. One tip I can offer is to protect the edge of the fingerboard with masking tape and start with a flat needle file if necessary, but then wrap successively finer grades of abrasive paper around it for the final little projection and to finish.

It's good to hear that the grain of the soundboard is nice - that's always the very first thing I look at in an instrument. A setup can be improved, but there's not much you can do if the basic fabric of the instrument is flawed. 
From your photos the neck appears to be Cedar, that is the tropical hardwood rather than the temperate softwood. This is frequently used for guitar necks, particularly on classical guitars where it is valued for its lightness, strength and stability.

I hope you'll take up much more space here, and let us know your impressions once you have finished tweaking it to your satisfaction!

Jon

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## vkioulaphides

Congratulations on your acquisition, however humble; with some attention to set-up, it should at least _work_ as well as more expensive and, presumably, better-_sounding_ instruments. Good working order is often underestimated.

Enjoy!

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## billkilpatrick

thank you ... i've always wanted to join a bowling league. do i have to get a tattoo?

played a small, beautiful, but horribly mistreated medieval lute just recently and noticed that the soundboard dipped in - slightly but noticeably concave. i've read about this on the oud and lute lists - no one seemed to be terribly upset by it - but i was wondering if the angled soundboard - which tapers down toward the end piece - was designed specifically to stop this occurrence on the bowlback?

- bill

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## onthefiddle

"i've always wanted to join a bowling league. do i have to get a tattoo?" 

Is that like a skittles team? I've never needed a tattoo to play skittles!   

The cant certainly does help the soundboard resist the pressure on it through the bridge. It also helps contribute to the power (volume) of the instrument. 

The way that the bridge interacts with the soundboard is different when comparing instruments with fixed and floating bridges (such as Lutes and Neapolitan Mandolins). A fixed bridge, such as that used with a lute, tends to pull forwards causing the soundboard in front of it to sink. A floating bridge exerts pressure downwards and so could potentially cause the soundboard to collapse. The cant is one feature of Neapolitan Mandolin construction that helps prevent this from happening. 

Jon

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## etbarbaric

As Jon says, the torque placed on a lute (or mandolino!) bridge can cause the top to be lower in front of the bridge, than behind it (toward the bottom of the instrument). However, this is desired behavior (as long as it doesn't get too wierd) In fact many modern luthiers build some "dish" into their instruments so that the edge of the ribs where the top lies is not entirely flat. Even without tension, these instruments will seem to have slightly sunken tops.

The idea is that the dish, whether produced by the bridge, or artificially enhanced, adds logitudinal tension, and therefore stiffness to the top.

Neapolitan mandolins (with strings affixed to the end rather than the bridge) are completely different animals.

Eric

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## guitharsis

Just purchased my third bowlback. Am I an official collector now? 
My new/old bowlback is a Marcelli. It is still on Bernunzio's website. www.bernunzio.com Anyone have any info
on this? Don't know how old it is or if it is Italian, American, German made. It's solid wood - a nice spruce top. maple ribs and looks to be well cared for. It even came with the original hardshell case. It sounds and plays pretty nice for $99! Nice to have Bernunzio's right here in town. Doreen

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## billkilpatrick

well spotted doreen! looks absolutely beautiful ... had no idea these instruments were available in the states for that sort of money.

happy tunes - bill

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## onthefiddle

Congratulations Doreen! That's quite a price!

As far as I'm aware Marcelli was a German brand. Certainly the mandolin looks quite German, though I am open to correction. Once you have had time to get to know it better, it will be interesting to hear your opinions on your different bowlbacks.

Are you going to string it with Thomastiks?

Jon

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## guitharsis

Thanks Bill and Jon

Yours looks very nice too, Bill!

Jon - The mandolin was strung with D'Addario J62's at Bernunzio's. #I still have a couple of sets of Lenzner Consorts left. #This mandolin is a bit heavier than my Italian bowlbacks so the J62's may be OK for awhile, or do you believe that it would be better to change to the Lenzner Consorts right away?

I did a Google search and also believe that the Marcelli may be a German brand.

Doreen

P.S. The Berara Italian mandolin that is also on sale at Bernunzio's for $99 needs a bit of work, but would be nice project for someone. It's quite lightweight and would probably sound very good when completed.

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## onthefiddle

I haven't met a Marcelli in person, but German mandolins tend to be more heavily built -
being designed for slightly heavier flatwound stringing. I think that the J62's should be fine, but if it were mine I would be very tempted to put a light set of Thomastiks on it - for the different tone. I think you could the Lenzners for your De Meglio.

Jon

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## guitharsis

Thanks, Jon. #I'll order some Thomastiks and give them a try. #I'll save the Lenzners for my DeMeglio and Stridente.

I found some Thomastik Light Mandolin Strings T-154L on the Janet Davis website. Are these the ones you're referring to?
Doreen

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## Martin Jonas

I agree with Jon that this mandolin looks German, but I wouldn't think it was designed for flatwounds. This style of mandolin well predates the sturdy type of modern German bowlback. Thomastiks are more expensive than Lenzners, not less, and I am sceptical whether they will be very nice on it. The J62 set is probably not a bad choice -- they sound quite nice on my old German "Portuguese-style" mando (in fact, the leader of our little mandolin ensemble has them on his de Meglio, although I think that isn't a terribly good idea). But basically, either Lenzners or Dogals should be fine. If the Consort seem to light, you could always go up a gauge -- Lenzner make the bronze-wound polished strings in a heavier gauge too.

Martin

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## guitharsis

Thanks, Martin. The J62 set does seem to be working well for now. I can certainly leave them on to break it in. It's probably been awhile since it's been played. I don't think I would put them on my deMeglio! Since I have a couple of sets of the Lenzer Consorts I could try them next. Thanks. Doreen

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## trebleclef528

I'm fairly certain that the marcelli is a German mandolin #and from others I've seen this looks like a very good quality one...... and hey.. for $99 it's a snip at the price. I also think the J62 strings should be fine.

Marcelli seemed to have quite a large rage at one time and I've had quite a few.. the quality varies considerably from very good to pretty bad... but although not built to the quaility of the modern German mandolins (the better quality ones)this certainly looks a goodie.

i think I've mentioned before that the vast majority of German players who have the modern German bowlbacks (like Knorr for example) use Thomastic medium gauge strings on the G,D and A and Hannabach on the E (simply because the Hannabach E seems to give a better sound than the Thomastic E).... this combination works very well on the Modern German mandolins ( and some of the quality older ones from the 1970's onwards)....... but is obviously not suited to all mandolins or indeed to all players.

This combination resulted after many trials by some of the top German performers over a long period of time and is the combination that many of my own orchestra members use.

So popular is this combination in German that you can buy this as a set from Trekel... 

Enjoy your new mandolin.

----------


## guitharsis

Thanks, Ian. 
It's nice to hear from someone who has actually owned many Marcelli mandolins. 

Interesting, too, that the German players who have modern bowlbacks use the Thomastik/Hannabach combination strings, and that you can buy them as a set! Doreen

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## Jim Garber

> here are some photos of the cheapie bowl-back i bought recently here in italy (eur 120.00).


As you may have noticed, I have been unusually quiet for the last week or so. That is because I was away on a family vacation/holiday.

Anyway, Bill, yours looks promising. I would say, if you wanted to fiddle with it some, maybe thin out that bridge or replace it with something less bulky or thick. One possibility is to drill some holes in it to lighten it up. More info courtesy of Frank Ford.

Doreen, yours looks quite nice as well. Congratulations to all. 

BTW I was finally able to pick up my dark-topped Puglisi today which looks like it may be in all reight shape. I have to see if those small cracks are a problem or not. They may just be on the surface and the tailpiece might be nicely anchored into the tailblock. (I hope). I may try some ultralights on it if i can find a useable bridge.

BTW any comments on this strange onje sold by our friend Guitalong?

Jim

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## etbarbaric

&gt;&gt; BTW any comments on this strange onje sold by our friend Guitalong?

Hmm... well, it is certainly odd. A *long* time ago gitterns were sometimes carved from a single piece of wood... but this is clearly a 19th-century instrument. I like the friction pegs... but the rest doesn't do much for me, personally. 

The Fabricatore attribution is fantasy, IMHO, and the mention of that name along with Vinaccia is probably just meant to stir up potential buyers. Note that the source he cites in support of this notion is a quote from our own Eugene... taken from some lute thread somewhere. Not that Eugene isn't a reliable guy (he is) but I fail to see the connection.

I have seen several Fabricatores... and Vinaccias... and this ain't it...

Eric

ps - Speaking of this sort of thing... In spite of my having corrected them (and they having corrected their Website once), a certain Gennaro Rubino mandolin is back to being called a "Gennaro and Rubino Vinaccia" again... disgusting! I hope nobody falls for it. Expect more confusion...

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## Martin Jonas

> Both of the ongoing Vinaccia auctions are hovering around £300 at the moment and may or may not take off into the stratosphere.


Just to follow up price developments, the two Fratelli Vinaccias went for <a href="http://cgi.ebay.fr/SUPERBE-MANDOLINE-NAPOLITAINE-TRES-ANCIENNE_W0QQitemZ7341381208QQcategoryZ104485QQrdZ  1QQcm

&lt;br&gt;dZViewItem" target="_blank">755 Euro</a> and 1300 Pounds. #I can't really see an obvious reason for the significant difference in price -- both seem in reasonable condition and in both are relatively plain instruments towards the lower end of the Vinaccia range. #I guess the more expensive one is a bit fancier in the soundhole surround and bridge position markers.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Nice-looking (I think) 1936 Embergher Orchestra No.2. I asked the seller for more and larger pics. I am in no position to go for this tho at the moment.

Yet another Vinaccia. This one has a mention of C. Munier on the label. As far as I can figure the maker is the grandchild (nipote?) of C. Munier? 

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Both of those look great! I've never seen such a label on a Vinaccia before, with the Munier name next to Vinaccia, but the crest above the name is the same on as on other "Fratelli Vinaccia" instruments, so this looks to be the same shop (Giuseppe used a different crest). Looks to be in great condition. I note a bit of a rough termination to the fingerboard, though: the radius isn't quite the same as the radius of the soundhole. Shipping from Uruguay may put some buyers off, but the Italians and Japanese seem to be sourcing worldwide.

Martin

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## Eugene

Woo-hoo, I'm famous! #...And guitalong has speculated clear off the deep end on that seemingly well-made-but-in-no-way-Fabricatore oddball.

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## Eugene

I think I remember that quote of mine he used from a discussion on the origins of 6-string guitars on Dartmouth's lute list, and it obviously had nothing at all to do with the instrument on hand. (Do I deserve royalties from this transaction?) #Lute list stuff is archived and accessible via several search robot thingies.

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## etbarbaric

Royalties? Wouldn't that be more of a kickback? :-) But then, of course, you'd have to stand by the attribution....

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## Bob A

The Uruguay Vinaccia looks like the fretboard may have been replaced, but I'm far from sure. The Embergher is a honey. I imagine it will go rather higher than 2000 euro. 

I seem to recall questions raised on the board many months ago regarding a Munier-labelled Vinaccia; while it is doubtful that Munier had any input in the fabricating of the instrument, the fabricating of the fabricator is something he may have had his, uh, hand in.

----------


## Bob A

BTW, I really had the hots for the French maple Vinaccia. More's the pity that I didn't have the dollars. I suspect that the buyer would have driven the price up to heartbreaking levels - I know I would have, had I the means. Drop-dead gorgeous lines to that bowl, no?

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## Eugene

> Wouldn't that be more of a kickback? #:-) #But then, of course, you'd have to stand by the attribution....


"Yes" and "No thank you" respectively.

----------


## Eugene

I wrote to Dan'l on the day of the auction to tell him I in no way believe the oddball discussed above possibly could be the product of any Fabricatore. #It was a little late in the game, but I see my comment did not make the list (I can't slight him for that; it was rather late when I wrote). #If any of you reading here bought this as a Fabricatore based upon my being quoted out of context, it simply is _not_.

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## onthefiddle

I just came across the website of a Guitar maker named Marc Silber, who has a number of bowlbacks for sale.
There are a couple of reasonably priced Vegas, the fancier of the two would be very tempting if his price is for it in playing condition/restored. The bridge that stays in place without the need of strings is worrying though!
Also interesting is a pretty fancy "1905 DAYNOR/GRETSCH" with a fluted back. He wants $500 for it, but as is and requiring unspecified work.
He has a fair sample of American bowlbacks, including a couple of Martins, Washburns etc... It could be well worth a look for anyone looking for an American instrument.

Jon

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## Jim Garber

Marc has had a few of those for some time, tho it looks like the stock has grown. The Martin 5 is interesting and sounds like it is in good shape. The Stahl violin-shaped one is also interesting. And he has a few real oddballs.

I never heard of Daynor but Marc does know his stuff. He specializes in New York Italian-American makers and has done some research on them.

Jim

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## Eugene

I've never liked the awkward navigation of Marc's site. I would have thought he would have gotten enough complaint to change it by now.

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## Jim Garber

I agree and also am disappointed with his photos, but who am I to complain. I have a feeling he is busy with his business without much to deal with his web site.

Jim

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## onthefiddle

Actually the navigation problem is partly my fault. I took the url of his mandolin page from a hyperlink in a frame on his site. Here is his homepage. Navigation is a little confusing still though.
I can certainly understand his difficulty in finding time to work on his website!  

Jon

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## Jim Garber

How are these quality mandolins ending up in Uruguay? This is the second of two active dealers in these instruments. Any clues?

Higher end vintage Calace.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

The engraving on this one is certainly interesting. 




> JEROME THIBOUVILLE LAMY & Cie.Paris, Seuls Concessionnaires


I don't know much about the Lamy shop, but from this, they apparently re-sold Calace's in their later life. Does anyone know more about this atelier?

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## Eugene

I think they are as well known as retailers as manufacturers. The shop started life as Husson et Duchêne. I have handled a several mid-19th-c. Thibouville-Lamy guitars, I think maybe one (or two) earlier guitar labeled Husson et Duchêne, and admired a few mandolins from afar. I don't recall having personally handled a Thibouville-Lamy mandolin. There is a bit on the shop's history at Zavaletas la Casa de Guitarras.

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## onthefiddle

Jerome Thibouville Lamy, or JTL as they are known in the trade, were originally a company making "trade" violins etc... in France. A visit to any half decent Violin shop in the western world should find you an example of one of their violins made in the late nineteenth or early twentieth century. They are well regarded instruments within their price range. They appear to have been distributing the work of some Italian Mandolin makers, I've seen their label in other Mandolins before (though I can't recall what now), this is the first time that I've seen it on a Calace though.
JTL still exist, though not as a company making instruments, but supplying makers and restorers with materials and fittings, and not in France - they moved to the UK.

Jon

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## Eugene

...The oddest part of Thibouville-Lamy laying claim to this piece is the word "seul" (sole, only). They must have meant "only" in France at that time as I believe the Calace firm had a couple other outlets.

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## Bob A

There was a significant Italian diaspora in the early part of last century. Many folks went to South America; doubtless they took their mandolins - so delightfully portable. 

Nice Calace. How long will it remain at $9.00?

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## Eugene

Not long...(I have no serious designs on the piece; bid away and I will not be offended).

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## Jim Garber

Interesting... I am away from my computer and my jpeg archive, but wouldn't this model have an extended fretboard? Nevertheless, it looks like a nice one and I like the oddball soundhole shape tho I am not fond of the pearl blocks on the fretboard. Comes with a nice tortoise shell pick which should be worth more than the $9 right there 

BTW JTL is also notorious for their Violaline, pictured in the oddballs section.

Jim

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## Bob A

I believe I've seen photos of at least one Calace of this type without the extended board. I have too slow a dialup connection to wait for all the pictures to load, but looks like the armrest has been damaged. Vaguely possible that the board has been trimmed, like the AUstralian example seen on ebay last few weeks.

I too have no designs on the instrument; exchecquer terminal. However, it has hit $152 so far. For all its possible problems, it looks worthy, though I've never been fond of pearl boards, personally.

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## Bob A

Orchestra model Embergher brought 2510 euros - a bit more than 3 grand. Pricey perhaps, but less dear than buying from the few dealers who have such things. 

Calace's still at 152.50 with five days to go.

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## Jim Garber

Nice looking, slightly fancy De Meglio with non-original bridge. I emailed the seller to llosen those D'Addarios. It turns out that the seller owns a Demeglio tho this one does not have a label id'ed it as such. I told him/her of recommended strings.

Jim

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## onthefiddle

I have seen the twin of that De Meglio style mandolin in a local auction, as far as I recall it was identical in every detail. It had an identical brdige, and also lacked the string holder beneath the bridge. 
It was of reasonable quality, though not as well constucted as a genuine De Meglio. I can't really comment on the sound of it as it was strung with the remains of an ancient set of strings.

Jon

Edit: I see the seller is also in Cambridgeshire - no wonder I have a sensation of deja vu!

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## Jim Garber

Despite the seller's mislabeling this as 18th century, this looks like a Silvestri (Catania?) liuto.

I have a feeling that the reserve is way over what it should be for this instrument.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Oh, I have had dreams... (as you know, of course). 

Still, I have yet to hear a liuto that really "works", acoustically speaking; the gamut of pitch the poor instrument is expected to actually _resonate_ to is ENORMOUS! Hence its many and insoluble, I'm afraid#problems: no body-shape, no specs will accommodate ALL that range.  

On the other hand, perhaps in retirement   a _mandocello_ may figure in the crystal ball. Why, Jim... you and I, and a few choice friends can actually start a quartetto classico: *The Mandogeezers*. Whad'ya think, eh?  Let's plan ahead: end of 2020-'21 season...

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## margora

Quote: "On the other hand, perhaps in retirement   a mandocello may figure in the crystal ball. Why, Jim... you and I, and a few choice friends can actually start a quartetto classico: The Mandogeezers. Whad'ya think, eh?  Let's plan ahead: end of 2020-'21 season..."

Count me in!

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## Jim Garber

Now we only need the mandola, right?

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Not to mention that, in order to reach that blessed day, I need to _survive the intervening SIXTEEN SEASONS!!!_  

But all this, of course, belongs to a whoooooooooooole other thread. Say... do you think we can keep a thread on board that long?  

Back to our regular programming; I am not bidding on the liuto, on account of the above, uhm... *prematurity*.

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## Jim Garber

I briefly played the Calace liuto that belongs to the Munier Orchestra. It is amazing what a large neck that is. I am not sure how Raffaele got those beautiful tones out of his instrument. 

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Yeah...  another reason that, if I ever acquire a plucked bass instrument, it will probably be a narrow-necked mandocello, as cello-ish as it can possibly be. All that, of course, by way of dreaming...  

The liuto is impressive; having said that, it reminds me a bit of those 5-string double-basses common in German orchestras with a sub-contra B!!! Sooooooooo unwieldy... 

Until that happy day, fellow-Mandogeezers!

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## margora

Quote: "Now we only need the mandola, right?"

I'll play that instead, if it helps.

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## Jim Garber

Ah yess, I can see us now at the Raffaele Calace Home for the Aged Mandolinists in a beautiful villa in Tuscany. Lovely thought...

Aerobics after breakfast and mandolin orchestra at 9:30. What a way to fasde into the sunset... ah but I digress.

Jim

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## Bob A

NOw wait a minute, Jim - are you suggesting the orchestra be ready to play by 930 AM??? That does not sound very retiring to me.

I make it a point of honor to be up and about, ready to face my public by 11AM. It's a sacrifice, but I feel it is incumbent on me to make the effort, and set some sort of example to those who look to me for guidance. 

As for aerobics, I trust that a good stretch and a yawn will serve?

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## Jim Garber

The schedule (and my abysmal typing) will be open to revision. BTW the architect of this facility had the forethought to provide each resident with a separate room to house his or her collection of bowlbacks (relevant to this thread) and other instruments of mass distraction.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> Higher end vintage Calace.


$1775 for this one... not too bad, I think.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I'm not a big fan of the decorations of that Calace, and of the D-shaped soundhole. In any case, I fear it may have some issues that need some attention.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

I was commenting on the price as reasonable... I do agree with you that the aesthetics are not all that pleasing to me either. You are prob right that it might have some issues anyway.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Another Calace with ornate D-Hole, this one with extended fretboard and fluted ribs. I think aesthetically it would be pleasing (to me) if it had a fretboard without the large pearl pieces or with similar inlay to the headstock. Still too ornate for my taste but I think it would hold together, aesthetically.

This one is from the active German eBay dealer, Stringwalker. It should go for about market value, I would think. 

Interetsing that it is difficult to see whether this is dated 1916 or 1976, tho it should be evident by the style of manufacture, I would think.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Also a decent-looking and (at 9 hours to go) cheap Stridente and a slightly fancy <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/old-Italian-De-Meglio-mandolin-in-a-case_W0QQitemZ7347612707QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcm  dZVi

ewItem" target="_blank">de Meglio</a>. #

Finally, a very fancy Calace. #Looks a fluted back to me, although the photo isn't very clear. #The seller isn't sure whether its 1976 or 1916, but I'd say that it's safe to say that the earlier date is correct.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Jim and I were crossing over in typing, I note. Looking at the label in the Calace, it does indeed look more like 76, but I can't imagine this instrument having been built so late. Could it be a misshapen "26"?

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

This picture from a relisted <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-VINTAGE-STRIDENTE-MANDOLIN-ORIGINAL-CASE-STUNNING_W0QQitemZ7347686530QQcategoryZ1219Q
QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Stridente</a> illustrates graphically why one should use only extra light strings on antique bowlbacks.

Martin

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## Onesound

Wasn't that one of those experimental "bowed" instruments?

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## billkilpatrick

i bought something from stringwalker1 (charango? ... uke? ... can't remember which) and it went well. don't know what his feedback situation is like but one of his many positive ones is from me.

jim - unsure about your proposed home for the aged here in tuscany: is it aging players you foresee or instruments? you're perfectly welcome to place the former in an exclusive, very selective trailer park in florida, thank you very much, and just dump the latter here with me.

i care (heaps) - bill

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## Jim Garber

> Jim and I were crossing over in typing, I note. #Looking at the label in the Calace, it does indeed look more like 76, but I can't imagine this instrument having been built so late. #Could it be a misshapen "26"?


There was another very similar Calace on eBay last month with a very similar label. You can see the number more clearly here. I would agree with Martin that it may be 1926 -- definitely not 1916.

Jim

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## Bob A

The Calace & Figlio labelling came in around 1922. 

Bill, I've got a used trailer for you in the deep South. Bring your charango.

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## CraigF

> Interetsing that it is difficult to see whether this is dated 1916 or 1976, tho it should be evident by the style of manufacture, I would think.


In Europe a 1, looks similar to an American 7. They use a leading 'swoop' on the top of the 1. It is also why Europeans use a horizontal slash through their 7. So I would say it's 1916.

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## Martin Jonas

> In Europe a 1, looks similar to an American 7. They use a leading 'swoop' on the top of the 1. It is also why Europeans use a horizontal slash through their 7. So I would say it's 1916.


That is quite correct (if by "Europe" you mean "continental Europe" -- the 1 in the UK is like in the US), but on this label there _is_ a horizontal slash through the 7 (or 1, or 2). Also note that the seller is German, and so am I. Neither he nor I read that label as 16, although I can just about live with the "26" possibility.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

This looks like other 1920s Calaces and Bob has noted that 1922 was the start for the "figlio" labels. Also, see attached label from a 1914 Calace mandolin.

Jim

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## CraigF

> That is quite correct (if by "Europe" you mean "continental Europe" -- the 1 in the UK is like in the US), but on this label there _is_ a horizontal slash through the 7 (or 1, or 2). Also note that the seller is German, and so am I. Neither he nor I read that label as 16, although I can just about live with the "26" possibility.
> 
> Martin


Hmmm, are we looking at the same pic? I didn't notice a slash through the number (at least not way the I've seen before). But, the numbers seem to be written in a script form. Kind of like cursive letters vs. printed. The bottom of the first digit follows over to the 2nd digit. Maybe that's what looks like a slash to you. Of course you being German, you've seen a lot more examples than I, so your assessment is probably more accurate

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## onthefiddle

Looking at these different examples of Calace labels there may be a couple of details that might end the confusion:

When did the labels stop saying "Cav. Raffaele Calace" and start saying "Comm." and what is the significance of the change? The change in 1922 to "& figlio" probably covers this one actually.

When did the workshop move from 207 Via Chiaia to 98 Piazza Cavour? This looks like it has been crossed out on the previous example - just to confuse things a little more! It does appear to be the address used on the example being discussed though. Their current address is listed as 9 Vico San Domenico Maggiore on their website.

Jon

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## Martin Jonas

Congratulations to Doreen on winning this <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mandolin-by-Umberto-Ceceherini_W0QQitemZ7347358261QQcategoryZ10179QQss  PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1Q


QcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Ceccherini</a>. #At this price, it's a fabulous deal (assuming it's in as good a shape as it looks). #Maybe I shouldn't have tipped her off and just cherry-picked it myself (how many Ceccherinis does one need)...

Martin

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## guitharsis

Thanks, Martin. #I am excited about winning this one!
Thanks for tipping me off. #I haven't really been checking ebay lately.

Actually, how many bowlbacks does one need?! This is my fourth! Thought about selling the latest(Marcelli) because the action is high, but am now thinking of using lighter strings on it because I really don't want to part with it.

Doreen

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## Jim Garber

> Actually, how many bowlbacks does one need?! #


Hah! 

Jim

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## Bob A

How many, indeed. I'm way overstocked and undertalented, but I was sore tempted to bid on the "Ceceherini" myself. Glad I was able to resist, but, as we know all too well, ultimately resistance is futile.

Remember, too, that mandolin collections of upwards of 400 instruments are not unknown. And the problem with bowlbacks is that they are much more amusing to amass than the Gibson types, because of the incredible variety of design and sound. 

You know, it might be worthwhile, since the instrument is in England, to have it checked out and set up by someone on the scene. Check the Vinaccia thread for a well-qualified luthier.

----------


## Jim Garber

Yet anotherCeccherini. This is priced higher already than Doreen's. I wish I could...

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Bizarre how these things tend to come out in clusters. I'm ever more inclined to think that Alban Voigt was indeed the sole distributor for the entire world and that Umberto sent every instrument he made straight to London. All examples I've ever seen have the Voigt label and almost all surface in the UK (Victor's and Bob's are in the US, but at least Victor's was bought from the UK).

This latest one is interesting in that it looks identical to my single-top Ceccherini, except that it has the double-top and the string down-holding hooks. Like my single-top, but unlike my double-top or Doreen's-to-be, this one has a stained soundboard (the others are blonde), it has a narrower body shape, a less intricate pickguard (exactly the same as my single-top), brass saddle and nut (not silver), delicate bone tuner buttons (not chunkier ivory ones), no bridge position markers, no signature on the label and the words "Fabricca di Mandolini e Chitarre" (the other ones are "Mandolini e Mandole"). I incline to the view that this label is earlier than the other one, which would make my single-top and the latest double-top the oldest instruments. I believe Doreen's is younger, and my double-top younger still (it has a different style of tuner plates and different fretboard markers). In addition, there are likely to be tiers of (perceived) quality and original price within Umberto's range. I still entertain the possibility that my single-top (the only Ceccherini single-top I've ever seen or heard of) may simply predate his invention of the double-top, which would make comparison with this latest one particularly intriguing.

All this guesswork would have been so much easier if he had had the good grace of putting years, model numbers and serial numbers on the label...

In any case, although clearly this seller is too savvy to let his instrument go for the bargain price that Doreen managed, the opening price of £150 is still a rather good deal, especially as its neck and soundboard look in better shape than on my single-top (which has a bit of distortion although not enough to interfere with playability).

Martin

----------


## Eugene

Doreen, you are consistently riding upwards on my list of "most envied."

----------


## Bob A

As it happens, my Ceccherini is indeed from England, with only a short layover at John Bernunzio's. His plan was to keep it for himself, but the dealer blood was too strong.

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## guitharsis

Thanks, everyone. #I do feel fortunate to be getting a Ceccherini and at such a great price!

Yes, they are fun to collect because they are all so different. 

Will let you know when it arrives. #It may take a little longer, because the seller will not accept Pay Pal.

Edit: Just heard from the seller. He sent it out today (9/10) and paid extra to have it sent faster. All this before my check even arrived or cleared!

Bob,
Having a set up done over there would probably be a great idea. #Everything is all set for it to be shipped here now though. #Bernunzio's could probably set it up as could Stutzman's. #Richard, at Stutzman's set up my Strtidente and did a nice set up (according to John at Bernunzio's)

The two sets of Lenzner Consorts I have are medium. #Are they light enough? 

Doreen

----------


## Martin Jonas

> The two sets of Lenzner Consorts I have are medium. #Are they light enough?


Perfectly fine. Indeed, I think they are the only grade of _Consort_ that Lenzner make. Lenzner do make the _Bronce_ set (that's the one with the plain A string) in light, medium and heavy. I have the medium set from that range on my Ceccherini, and it's the right gauge. Lenzner's idea of medium is the same as GHS's idea of ultra light. The Consort set are the same as the Bronce medium set except for the different A string.

I'm sure the Consort will be fine on yours; I have opted for the plain A string on the Ceccherini because I really like its shimmering trebles. However, it does come at the cost of having a slightly awkward tonal transition from D to A, which the Consort set smoothens out.

Martin

----------


## trebleclef528

Re the current Calace on ebay. My thoughts are that (comparing it to similar photos I have) that the date is 1926.

This particular instrument causes me a bit of pain. I received an email from the original seller asking me if I would like to buy it for 320 Euro........ unfortunately I was away at the time and responded to late to his mail...and he put it on German ebay at a buy it now of 320 Euro............ Ah thats life. The current seller on ebay is a very highly respected instrument dealer (in fact his wife taught my wife the mandolin)and very reliable.

Best Wishes,
Ian

----------


## guitharsis

Thanks, Martin. My Lenzner sets are "Consort" Bronce
No.3020, so maybe they're the same ones you have. They should be perfect for my Ceccherini-to-be.

Sorry you lost out on the Calace, Ian.

Doreen

----------


## Jim Garber

1934 Embergher Style B Orchestra in Belgium (friend of Ralf's??)

Yet another Giuseppe Vinaccia. Interesting scratchplate. The seller anticipates questions by providing string height measurements.

And finally, I was able to work out an equitable deal for this "hole in the head" Calace & Figlio with issues (see attached). I will post better pics and more details in the next day or so.

Jim

----------


## guitharsis

Congrats, Jim!

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## Eugene

Very nice, Jim. I'm keen for word.

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## Jim Garber

I have been working off-site so have had not much time to post. I just got this one yesterday after working out a decent deal from the seller. You can see the pics here.

I emailed a little with Martin and Bob A about various aspects of Calaces and vintage Big Three bowlbacks. Primarily I am concerned about the neck angle tho I think it has a non original and too high bridge. The neck break may have to be re-repaired and I am not had a chance to open the pegbox to see how cheap those tuners are. They may not be original either.

I will try to take some decent pics tomorrow and post them in the post a picture thread.

In the meantime, for your entertainment, I have attached comparison pics from my files of 4 hole-in-the-head Calaces. These all seem to be from the 1920s. #1 is mine, #2 was sold by Mike Schroeder some time ago in the classifieds, # 3 is Bob A's and #4 was ebay. Mine seems mlst similar to #4 whichI believe was made in 1924. Mine has no date on the label but has a curious sort of wax seal.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Yet another Uruguayan seller has come out of the woodwork.

The seller has three mandolins with labels I am unfamiliar with, tho the designs are reminiscent, and, if we are to believe the labels, connected to the Vinaccia firm for two of them:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-FELICE-ARPINO-NAPOLI-MANDOLIN-1_W0QQitemZ7349661976QQcategoryZ10179QQssPageNameZ  WDVWQQ
rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Felice Arpino</a>
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-SALVITO-ANTONIO-VINACCIA-MANDOLIN-2_W0QQitemZ7349665923QQcategoryZ10179QQssPageNameZ  WD
VWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Antonio Salvito</a>
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-SUPERB-MANDOLIN-SIGNED-GIUSEPPE-SMURRO-3_W0QQitemZ7349668781QQcategoryZ10179QQssPageNa
meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Giuseppe Smurro</a>

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Three things of interest about this rather plain Cesare Montaldi mandolin: 

1) It has a rather nice maple bowl 
2) a nice-looking hard case
3) an Alban Voight label that is not on a Demeglio clone for once.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I've seen Voigt labels in Ferrari mandolins as well, which were not De Meglio-kin. (BTW I wouldn't necessarily call Ceccherinis "De Meglio clones", although they certainly share some of the visuals. The bowl shape, bracing and construction are all markedly different, as is the scale length.)

Somehow all three of the three mandolins from the latest Uruguay seller make a slightly crude impression in terms of workmanship. I can only see one label claiming a Vinaccia connection ("Antonio Salvito, allievo Vinaccia"). The seller in his description leaves out the rather crucial word "allievo" and rechristens the maker "Antonio Salvito Vinaccia". Which of the other two has a Vinaccia connection?

Congratulations again to Jim on his Calace! I'm sure it'll be a great instrument once its issues are resolved; I hope they turn out to be not too severe!

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> I've seen Voigt labels in Ferrari mandolins as well, which were not De Meglio-kin. (BTW I wouldn't necessarily call Ceccherinis "De Meglio clones", although they certainly share some of the visuals. #The bowl shape, bracing and construction are all markedly different, as is the scale length.)
> 
> #I can only see one label claiming a Vinaccia connection ("Antonio Salvito, allievo Vinaccia").


Yes, you are right, Martin. I also confused my Ceccherini with Demeglio, tho I would still say that there is some connection between the two. Other than the doubel soundboard, don't they both have the metal nuts and saddles?

My challenge here in the US is finding someone I trust to restore this Calace. Pics to come -- I promise!


Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here are some fresh photos of my Calace.

I am pretty sure that the birdge is unoriginal and the tuners looks suspect as well, tho I have to check under the tuner plate. Bob and others who own these... have any pics of the bridges?

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Another nice-looking maple-bowled Vinaccia dated 1895.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Nice-looking piece. Slightly more ribs than mine. The bridge and tailpiece are clearly non-original, the fretboard probably too (I've never seen a Vinaccia with double dots at the 12th). $1100 would be decent price, but setting it as a starting bid and having an even higher reserve is certainly making rather a statement of expectation.

Martin

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## onthefiddle

Congratulations Jim! 
The shapes and proportions are pleasing, the decoration is tastefully understated, and I particularly like the delicacy of the mother of pearl inlay around the soundhole.

Jon

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jim,

First I like to congratulate you with your Calace mandolin. 
It is the model 24 of the _'Serie Mandolini Calace Brevettati da Studio'_. 

I hope the photos I made for you of my 1914 Raffaele Calace Model 24 will help you further.

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## Alex Timmerman

Here are some pictures of the bridge from either side

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## Alex Timmerman

And of the little triangel bone piece at the neck-head junction:

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## Alex Timmerman

And of the sleeve-guard:

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## Alex Timmerman

Since the neck and head are veneered with very thin palissander wood, I think that your Calace can be perfectly restored. That is, if the wood of the neck and head are still strong enough to take the string tension. 

Of course, if you like to have any measurements of the sleeve-guard, bridge etc., don't hesitate to ask.
I'll be happy to help. #


Many greetings,

Alex

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## Jim Garber

Alex: thank you so much for the excellent photos. One question i have is what is the material that the saddle is made of?

Also, does yours have the Raffaele Calace label for any mention of the "figlio"? I think that mine would be later, like 1920s since is it has the figlio label?

Thanks
Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim,

The saddle is made of bronze.

Yours is indeed made later. On the label inside mine there is no "figlio" addition. Just the little photo in the left upper corner of the Maestro himself, the impressive row of medal images and the text: 

======================================

*Cav. RAFFAELE CALACE*
VIA CHIAIA 207
NAPOLI

_Raffaele Calace_  # #[Signature]

*1914*# ##[written in ink]

======================================


Best, 

Alex

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## Jim Garber

> The saddle is made of bronze.


Interesting... is that the usual saddle material for these? I figured that the Demeglios were among the only ones that used those.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

On this Calace mandolin bronze for the saddle is indeed the material used. Interestingly I owned a twin mandolin to my 1914 one that was equipped with exactly the same bridge. And there are others also. 
So for this period on this model I am quite sure the bridge type is all right.

But I don´t think that the Calace firm always used this bridge type, since I have come across several mandolins of the same model with different bridges of the calace firm. They changed them over the years.

Interesting on yours are also the two dots at either side of the bridge place. This indicates a different and somewhat shorter bridge type.

I´ll see what I have more for you on this. I believe I have an old Calace catalogue somewhere. Also we have to compare the label addresses to indicate better the period in which yours was made. 


Fun!

Alex.

_PS. The De Megio´s were followers._

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## Bob A

I have two questions:

Where if anywhere can information on older Calace instrument models and designations be found?

And here's the Big One: Does anyone know the real purpose of the two ivory-grommetted holes next to the bridge? 

Jim, my Ceccherini has a metal (silver, I think) saddle in this type of bridge. My 1922 Calace has a relatively plain bridge, with an ivory or bone saddle - not the style seen on Alex's instrument.

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## Martin Jonas

> Jim, my Ceccherini has a metal (silver, I think) saddle in this type of bridge.


I have also only seen these saddles on Ceccherini and de Meglios and their clones. The plainer ones have them in bronze, the fancier ones in silver (or possibly German silver). I have one each, and on the Rinaldi where the saddle was missing, I replaced it with a length of brass rod.

Interesting to see that Calace had them as well, and if I understand Alex correctly originated the concept.

I'm also still mystified by the two holes. They appear on a lot of German instruments from the 1920s to 1950s as well (including the one I inherited from my grandfather), but then usually off-centre. Still, they clearly aren't anything eletrical, like pickup jacks (impossible position) and with the Calace ones being underneath the strings, I can't see them being a receptacle for anything at all (I was toying with the idea of tuning forks for a while). Maybe Raffaele had some acoustical theory.

Martin

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## Daymando

I wonder if the two holes have some treble-focusing function, something akin to tweeters in a stereo system (with the regular soundhole functioning like a woofer)? A passing thought, and probably far from the actual purpose of the additional holes...  

-Allen.

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## Jim Garber

I was wondering if anyone has spoken directly to Raffaele Calace Jr. about these questions (and others). Unlike Embergher and Vinaccia, the Calace firm is still in business.

Jim

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## Bob A

Perhaps our Italian correspondant would pick up the glove on this challenge?

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## billkilpatrick

non speek inglese ... you are asking of me un duello?

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## vkioulaphides

Weeeeeeeel... considering that the Calace website STILL perpetuates the embarrassingly untrue Nicola Calace/Turturro identification, I seriously doubt that you could get factual information from the family regarding the myriad stages their business has gone through from inception on. Unfortunate... I wonder what _else_ is apocryphal!

This would probably be the task for a collector/organologist: a tabulated history of the Calace shop(s), complete with precise measurements, dates, locations, principal luthiers, etc. Considering the paucity of ANY formal, conservatory-based mandolin education available in the U.S., it is hard to hope that any student, majoring in some OTHER instrument, would undertake such a topic as his/her dissertation. 

So, with all the best intentions and armed with fluent Italian the curious, contacting Calace, may succeed in getting several interesting _stories_; *facts*, however...

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## Jim Garber

I am in the process of reading thru their downloadable catalog but some of the English translation is attrocious. As Victor noted, some of the history might also be suspect. 

Jim

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## Jim Garber

I started a #new thread to continue this discussion and also posted a link to a page where i have some Calace labels from 1914-1927.

Jim

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## Bob A

The fancy Calace brought $2326. I manfully resisted bankruptcy yet again; this time, the suspected addition to the pickguard put me off. bridge, too, looked shimmed. However, I suspect the winner got a bargain, even with the restoration to come. Hope it's a good 'un.

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## Bob A

Duello? Pistols for two and coffee for one?

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## billkilpatrick

i take sugar ...

amongst other subjects of chit-chat in the piazza, couldn't the calace geneology be investigated and ironed out during your (plural) proposed trip to italy next year?

is that still on?

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## Martin Jonas

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fine-antique-Italian-MANDOLIN-CARLO-LOVERI-NAPOLI_W0QQitemZ7349398435QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ
1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Carlo Loveri</a> relisted on Ebay UK.

Not a bowlback, but <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/REMARKABLE-RARE-OLD-ITALIAN-MANDOLIN-G-MODAUDO-192_W0QQitemZ7350026695QQcategoryZ10179QQrd
Z1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> fiddle-style mandolin is a bit of a curiosity. It's not entirely clear from the photos, but it looks like these may be carved front and backs, not flat. Terrible condition, though.

Martin

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## CervenySatek

Hi all, 

Just curious about the Giuseppe Vinaccia on ebay....  (too rich for me)

How is it even possible to have string clearance of 2mm at the 2nd fret, even if it's 3.5mm at the 12th? It seems like the nut height have to be almost 2mm, or there would have to be a massive bend between the nut and the 2nd fret. Am I missing something?

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## vkioulaphides

No, you are right: either way, too darn high! It is virtually impossible to tell from images whether it's the nut that is high, the frets (very!) worn out, the neck warped or all of the above.  

Of course, there is always the possibility of building a brand-new fingerboard for a quality instrument; see, for example, the fine work on martinjonas' Vinaccia. The cost/benefit analysis, of course, begins from the moment the auction ends, from the winning bid upwards.

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## Martin Jonas

Just one caveat: the listing says "height of fingerboard to string", and this might conceivably have been measured from the wood, rather than from the top of the frets. If so, it might be much more playable than those figures would indicate.

I am very happy with my new fingerboard: unlike all of my other vintage mandolins, this one actually intonates perfectly everywhere (pending some minor adjustments to the saddle compensation on the A-string, to be carried out when Jon does the final setup in a couple of months time). Also, not having bar frets, refretting is a much less daunting prospect if and when I have worn through the current ones. Of course, if a mandolin were to have neck joint problems, or a bent neck, then there is only so much corrective action that could be done with a new fingerboard. On mine, the joint and the neck were just fine and the replacement board was not made to correct action but to correct intonation.

Martin

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## CervenySatek

Interesting, so if a neck is badly bent, but not at all twisted, couldn't a compensated fretboard always be made to correct the action. Or are there other obstacles?

(btw martin, classy mando)

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## vkioulaphides

Weeeeeeel... it really depends on just _how_ badly warped a neck is. I have a lovely 1897 de Meglio with an _ever so slightly_ warped neck; the fine luthier who restored it ameliorated the action by filing down the (rather high, and original!) brass bar frets from 12th to 17, he even _lifted_ the frets, planed down the fingerboard, and _reset_ them, thereby creating the requisite clearance. The instrument is now 99% structurally perfect and *100*% original! 

Of course, in the case of a B-class instrument (such as a de Meglio), more drastic restoration would be unwarranted. If, on the other hand, one can acquire an A-class instrument (e.g. a Vinaccia) for a reasonable price, the idea of such a restoration begins to make sense. Martin's case is such.

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## Martin Jonas

With Neapolitan bowlbacks, the original fretboards are very thin indeed, often less than 2mm. That gives you virtually no scope for correcting neck problems without changing the elevation of the frets above the soundboard. If you need a greater correction, then the new fretboard would be substantially higher than the old one, necessitating a new higher bridge with a resulting different string break angle. All of this may work fine (indeed I've seen it on a de Meglio), but will alter the entire stress distribution in the mandolin, with unpredictable consequences on tone.

Martin

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## CervenySatek

Ah I see - thanks all

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## Martin Jonas

> Yet anotherCeccherini. This is priced higher already than Doreen's. I wish I could...


This one went for twice the price of Doreen's: £225, which is still not at all bad, even though it's a slightly less classy model than hers. I was putting a proxy bid in on behalf of a new ensemble member of ours, who has caught the bowlback bug, but as I had only managed to speak to him an hour before the end of the auction and he hadn't even had a chance to look at the photos, I didn't feel like I could push the boat out with somebody else's money. Difficult to say how high the winner would have been willing to go.

Is this a board member? It's a US-registered Ebay ID. Whoever it is, congratulations on a good deal!

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> Is this a board member? It's a US-registered Ebay ID. #Whoever it is, congratulations on a good deal!


dave17120 did business with him on another bowlback. Perhaps he will be invited.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

I posted a few choice pics of two rather high-end italian mandolins (Salsedo and Vinaccia) in the Post a Picture... thread. [Scroll way donw to the bottom of that page.]

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Another Calace from Uruguay, this one from 1909 with the old style label. Looks similar in grade to my hole-in-the-head model 24, tho earlier. The condition looks sort of scratched-up with the birdge in the wrong place and the tophole grommets missing. Could be a nice one after restoration if it goes for reasonable.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I can't remember whether we've had this link here before. It's quite a collection of yummy bowlbacks, including a heavily ornamented Ceccherini. Bob, is yours like this one? There's even a Martin that has sneaked in between all the Italians.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> I can't remember whether we've had this link here before.


I am sure that someone (perhaps me) has posted this, but it does bear repetition. The owner originally wanted to sell as a collection, but no takers, so they will go separately. Rather high prices on some but we will see how the market will deal with these. That Ceccherini is quite nice but superornate.

Jim

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## Bob A

Yeah, we batted this around a year or so ago. I can't imagine anyone thinking that the entire collection would sell as a unit. Had they been more loose about it, I might have bought something from them, but by the time they decided to part it out, my stable was full. I thought it noteworthy that the collection has no Emberghers.

My Ceccherini is very similar to theirs, except for the basic bird motif, which on mine is floral. (They have a CD of the whole collection that pops up on ebay for $12 now and then).

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## Jim Garber

There seem to be quite a few of these mega-collectors who want their precious collections to remain as whole. Basically they want it enshrined in a museum.

Of course, we may scoff at the idea, but wait until we are ready to de-access our treasures. 

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fine-antique-Italian-MANDOLIN-CARLO-LOVERI-NAPOLI_W0QQitemZ7349398435QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ
> 
> 1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Carlo Loveri</a> relisted on Ebay UK.


Martin, you sly fox. You won this one and didn't even mention it. Congratulations... your collection is growing...

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Not for me this time -- it's for our latest ensemble member who is keen on getting a bowlback instead of his Ozark F-style for classical playing.

I'll deal with the shipping and I'll go over the mandolin to see if it's playable or can be made playable by means within my scope. #I'm fairly optimistic on that count. #The soundboard looks decent spruce and I have another photo that shows the neck to be straight. #What little I've been able to find on Loveri indicates that he was a reputable maker (one Italian web site mentions him in the same breath as Calace and the Vinaccias as one of the leading makers). #Jon and I were looking at some photos to figure out if a certain line was a crack or a string shadow -- I've asked the seller and he assured me that there was no crack. #Let's see.

In any case, I'll snag that tortoiseshell plectrum as my commission...

Incidentally, the reason why I posted the link to the mandolin collection above was that I came across it on a web search for Loveri. The Loveri in the collection (right next to the Ceccherini) is very similar to the Ebay one. 

Martin

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## guitharsis

What a pretty instrument. It looks to be almost new. Wasn't there a Carlo Loveri on Carlo's site awhile back?

Where is the Ceccherini in the bowlback hierarchy? Is it a step-up from the DeMeglio, Stridente, Puglisi?

----------


## Martin Jonas

Speaking of Carlo's site, I see that he now has three .wmv video clips showing his newly-built "Dolphin" mandocello, mandola and mandolin in action. #They look decent instruments; I wonder how they compare to the modern Calaces which seem very similar in looks and rather close in price.

Doreen -- I don't think anybody (except possibly Alex) can give a definitive answer to the ranking of any luthiers outside the big three. #There are just too many builders and not enough published sources. #Ceccherini are certainly a lot rarer than the three you've listed -- there are vast numbers of De Meglios, Stridentes and Puglisis out there, and as they are decent instruments that alone means that their name recognition is rather better than Ceccherini's. #This is simply because mandolin restorers and music shops dealing in bowlbacks will have come across more of them. #Nevertheless, my own feeling from having seen and played a number of de Meglios is that although they were very nice, Ceccherini is a distinct step up in terms of craftsmanship as well as tone. #Whether that translates into market value is a different story, as this is where name recognition comes in. #As you have just found out, with a bit of luck one can get a Ceccherini for much the same price as all those other non-big-three mandolins. #Incidentally, Eugene mentioned a while ago (here) that "Golden Era" virtuoso Leopoldo Francia endorsed Ceccherini, so that at least the builder had some ambitions towards the high-end soloist market. #Victor has previously described the Ceccherini tone as being distinctly more complex and more "classical" than the more folkloristic de Meglio tone, and from my own experience I would agree with that (although this of course does not confer any value judgments, as there are many settings where a folkloristic tone is appropriate).

Have you received your Ceccherini yet, Doreen? How is its condition?

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

Following up to myself again, check out this link, which appears to be an mp3 archive of soundclips from Carlo's mandolins, including the Loveri he has for sale. I don't think this is linked from his homepage. There are also some high-res photos of his mandolins here.

Martin

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## guitharsis

Thanks, Martin. #I love my Stridente and DeMeglio, but from what you've posted now and previously expect my Ceccherini to be a step up in craftsmanship and tone. Interesting about name recognition.#As far as market value, they probably are all priced far below what they should be. 

Haven't received the Ceccherini yet #Maybe tomorrow. #I'll be sure to post as soon as I do.

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## Bob A

I've emailed Carlo at least 3x about the price of his Loveri. The closest I've come to an answer is that he has three of them. He's never quoted a price. I've also offered trades; he tells me he has 100 mandolins already, then wants to know what I have. Seems like too much cognitive dissonance between us.

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## vkioulaphides

Scarier yet, Bob, is the "cognitive dissonance" (as you correctly describe it) _between Carlo and HIMSELF!_

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## etbarbaric

> Seems like too much cognitive dissonance between us.


Bob, you are truly a gentleman. The stories I could tell...

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## Jim Garber

I actually contacted a bidder on eBay who bought a rather brokendown bowlback. I was just curious who he would use to restore it. Even tho he was in the US he said he sends all his mandolins for repair to Carlo. Interesting, eh?

Jim

----------


## etbarbaric

I had a similar strange correspondence with someone Jim. In this case, they had included Carlo in a very odd EBay post... suggesting that he was the right guy to restore this particular mandolin (based on some further erroneous information they included). It turned out that they had never had any direct dealings with Carlo at all, they had simply found his Website and made assumptions.

This kind of thing is happening more and more, people do a quick Web search and then make rather large leaps from there. We've certainly seen this happen repeatedly with the "Gennaro and Rubino Vinaccia" fiasco. 

A little information is a dangerous thing... and with the Web, misinformation is everywhere.

Eric

(Not that Carlo couldn't repair a mandolin... I'm sure he could. He just wouldn't be my first choice for restoration given his propensity to casually replace original fingerboards, etc.)

----------


## vkioulaphides

Carlo reminds me of an old friend of mine from Rome: while conversing with you, in an otherwise calm fashion, he would be screaming in his head at the very same time. He worries me...

Incidentally, my Roman friend reached SUCH a level of "cognitive dissonance" with his wife (and their eventual separation, such a level of acrimony) that the divorce case has reached the International Tribunal in the Hague (she is not Italian). And I thought that such level litigation was only reserved for the likes of Milosevic... silly me: cognitively dissonant persons involved in musical vocations can go far, very, very far...

----------


## Jim Garber

Hmmm... a desecration of a vintage Washburn bowlback. Why on earth would anyone put a hardwood top on an instrument. Must sound pretty bad.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

Wow, an intriguing combination of hugely misguided and grotesquely ugly. What's not to love!?

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Why on earth would anyone put a hardwood top on an instrument. 
> 
> Jim


To use as a cutting board? I have to confess that my first attempt at instrument building (30+ years ago) was a dulcimer with walnut sides and a 1/4" oak soundboard. At that time, I thought the light wood for a soundboard was just for contrast.

And if you took it on a picnic, it also made a nice cutting board.

----------


## onthefiddle

> etbarbaric Sep. 16 2005, 18:41
> This kind of thing is happening more and more, people do a quick Web search and then make rather large leaps from there. We've certainly seen this happen repeatedly with the "Gennaro and Rubino Vinaccia" fiasco. 
> 
> A little information is a dangerous thing... and with the Web, misinformation is everywhere.
> 
> Eric





> jgarber 	Posted on Sep. 19 2005, 12:00
> Hmmm... a desecration of a vintage Washburn bowlback. Why on earth would anyone put a hardwood top on an instrument. Must sound pretty bad.
> 
> Jim


Just to extrapolate from your two posts - this is something that worries me about the current under valuing of old bowlback mandolins (of all kinds). I've economically written off Violins given to me to assess that would have been worth as much as a nice Embergher if they hadn't undergone some very ill/under informed "refurbishment".

It can certainly be argued that old Violins are over valued as instruments, and valued more as antiques or works of art. Their value does afford them some degree of protection from mistreatment though. 

As a player I'm certainly not keen to see prices rise, but as a restorer I would like to see the value of these instruments fairly reflected in their price. It still astounds me that a nice Embergher can be bought for the price of a French trade Violin! The French trade instruments are good trade instruments and actually pretty good value as Violins go, but no trade Violin workshop could compare in importance with the best of the Roman and Neapolitan workshops making Mandolins.  

I am hopeful that a better appreciation of the value of these instruments is growing, and also that this may avoid some of the extreme excesses of the Violin world. One key to this is a renaissance in the making of these instruments - but that won't happen at a significant level at the higher end until the value of these older instruments is more fully appreciated.

To end on a very positive note - I do feel that this forum is helping to raise both the awareness and appreciation of these instruments.

Jon

----------


## etbarbaric

Well put Jon. It is rather a chicken and egg problem, however, isn't it? As you say, it almost seems that vintage mandolins need to appreciate to a certain point before luthiers in larger numbers are incented to learn enough about them to do informed restorations. And informed copies are a ways off if the original can be had for a song. Meanwhile, some of these instruments are likely to be subjected to do-it-yourself jobs that involve maple and black walnut tables (I liked Neil's cutting board idea, though).

Still, I think the bowl-back mandolin world runs a substantial risk of becoming "collectorized", with a few non-playing collectors (and some opportunistic dealers) driving the finer specimens into the unreachable range. I've seen enough of this already to know that it is happening, and it really angers me when it is sloppy or based on falsehoods. The world of fine violins is driven today as much by speculation and "investment" as it is art or function.

People already clammor excessively around the big name mandolins, often independent of the musical qualities of the instruments. I guess it all comes down to numbers. I still have trouble wrapping my head around, for instance, the numbers of De Meglio instruments that must have been made, according to his serial numbers (nevermind the copies and immitators!) Victor's explanation of Italian economics of the time go some distance to explain this... but still... its staggering.

A friend recently brought over a very nice unlabeled Washburn/Lyon and Healy instrument from around 1900, wanting to know what it was worth. I showered the instrument with deserving praise, and explained all about the features that drove my attribution. I had worked up a pretty good froth when he asked what it was worth... I said ... Oh... about a hundred bucks... then showed him some others had for that or less. I could tell he had a hard time grasping this seeming contradiction.

I seem to learn over and over that it is supply and demand that makes the world go around. A Loar F5 gets its price because there is a finite number and they are very sought after. The law of the Bigger Fool prevails. And even these instruments are no where near the price of fine violins.

I've been trying to interest a luthier (actually a lute builder) in building bowl-back mandolins. Every time I send him a mandolin to fix, he marvels at the craftsmanship. He's much more interested in building F5 models though... since well-known luthiers are getting really good prices with a growing clientelle. 

At the end of the day, everyone has to put food on their family (:-))... 

Eric

----------


## Martin Jonas

A fancy de Meglio and <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MANDOLIN-NEOPOLITAN-Maker-Giovanni-De-Meglio_W0QQitemZ7351450618QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQ  cm


dZViewItem" target="_blank">another</a> one less fancy and without bridge. #Amusingly, the seller of the latter claims "The mandolin is a model 1A which was a top of the range model." #The one way around, methinks.

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Old-American-Mandolin-by-Lyon-and-Healy-Chicago-U-S-A_W0QQitemZ7350986785QQcategoryZ10179Q


QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Lyon & Healys</a> are unusual in the UK, but the starting bid looks rather high to me for what looks a fairly ordinary, though well-preserved, mandolin.

Martin

Edit: link now fixed

----------


## Jim Garber

For some reasons the first link did not work. Here is that fancy Demeglio.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> Just curious about the Giuseppe Vinaccia on ebay.... # (too rich for me)


£731 in the end. There clearly is some work to do still on this one, so I think I didn't do too badly for my Giuseppe, even with the hidden issues that needed to be remedied.

Martin

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## guitharsis

Well, my Ceccherini arrived safely about an hour ago. It looks to be in very nice condition. The bridge appears to be orginal. It even came with a nice leather case and an older mandolin book by Mario de Pietro, copyright 1928.

It's difficult to tell much about the tone because it has old strings on it. I'll take it over this afternoon to a local shop to be checked over and have the strings changed to the Lenzner.

----------


## Eugene

Ah, Doreen...

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## etbarbaric

> As a player I'm certainly not keen to see prices rise, but as a restorer I would like to see the value of these instruments fairly reflected in their price.


A case in point... at least it won't become a cutting board just yet... maybe a signal mirror... Could you build one of these for $250 Jon? :-)

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## Eugene

Good luck, Eric. The seller certainly seems to know how to concisely describe such things.

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## etbarbaric

Thanks Eugene. Actually, the deed is done... so there's no luck involved... (other than finding a place for it, I suppose).

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## Eugene

Ah, I see. I didn't even loook at the end time. In that case, congrats! The price was very good if in the condition implied. Do you know any more of its condition than that stated? I have a style 225 that is desperate for a single gear to be rendered functional.

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## etbarbaric

Sorry, I don't know anything more... but it seems to be complete (other than some small missing bits) and in reasonably good shape. I must admit to having a weak spot in my heart for L&H/Washburn Neapolitan-style mandolins. I think its deplorable that such an instrument would go for such a price (I was the only bidder... and I may have bid because nobody else had... well... *someone* had to!)

Then again, this one cost me 150% more than the last L&H I bought... so maybe they're appreciating! :-)

Eric

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## guitharsis

Got my Ceccherini back from the shop yesterday. I had asked them to clean it, check for cracks and restring it with Lenzner Bronce. #They did check it and found some small cracks near the bottom near the tailpiece. #They decided it wasn't worth to fix unless I really wanted to because it would be OK as it is for a long while. #If they had checked with me first, I would've told them to go ahead and repair #it. #I'll wait awhile and have it done the next string chage. #They cleaned the fret board, filed some of the frets, cleaned the soundboard and restrung it with the Lenzner Bronce strings.

I took it home and played it last night. #Could not believe the nice sound. #Especially, as Martin has noted, the trebles. #For not being one of the top three, the Ceccherini, is a very well made instrument. #

The double top got me to thinking. #Double top is the rage in classical guitars right now and most people probably think it's a new concept. #Well, at least I thought so. #Ceccherini started building bowlbacks in 1881. #I know Martin does have one that's not a double top, so he may have not started quite that early but still . . .

----------


## Eugene

> I took it home and played it last night. #Could not believe the nice sound. #Especially, as Martin has noted, the trebles. #For not being one of the top three, the Ceccherini, is a very well made instrument.


Maybe not up amongst the Emberghers in notoriety, but Ceccherini mandolins were plenty well respected in their day. Golden-era virtuoso Leopoldo Francia endorsed Ceccherini.

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## Martin Jonas

Great to hear that you got the Ceccherini safely and that there's nothing important wrong with it, Doreen! I'm also very glad that you're happy with the workmanship and tone -- I wouldn't have wanted to have raised your expectations to the point where the actual instrument is a letdown (although I was fairly confident it wouldn't be). I don't know how much yours had been played over the last few years or decades. If it's anything like mine, you still see dramatic changes (for the better) in tone over the next few months of playing. When I first got mine, it sounded nice, but not particularly loud and with a slightly resonator-like tonalisty. It was as if the two soundboard were vibrating very very slightly out of sync, giving the tone a bit of an amplified quality, as if it came out of a loudspeaker. With time, the two soundboards got ever better into sync and now give a nice clean tone. Also very much louder than it was inititially. This is a loud mandolin when played hard and a quiet mandolin when played softly: nicely controllable dynamics. Of course, yours may not be quite as dormant as mine was, so may have less opening up to do.

Congratulation again!

Martin

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## guitharsis

Thanks, Eugene.
I do remember Martin pointing that out, referring to your post re: Leopoldo Francia. #Not a bad endorsement!

Martin,
The Ceccherini is everything I hoped it would be, and then some. #It's really nice. #Thanks again for giving me the heads up on it!

Don't think it's been played much in the past two or three decades. #The person I bought it from purchased it from a music teacher in Sheffield in 1964. #Same situation as with my DeMeglio. #That seller had it since the 60's.

My Ceccherini does have the reasonator like tonality! #You describe it so well. #I'll look forward to it sounding even better in time.

Doreen

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## onthefiddle

> etbarbaric Posted: Sep. 23 2005, 16:02
> 
> A case in point... at least it won't become a cutting board just yet... maybe a signal mirror... Could you build one of these for $250 Jon? :-)


Sorry for the delay in replying Eric - I've been rebuilding my computer.
To answer your question - No, the materials alone could cost as much, so there can obviously be no doubt that it is undervalued. Congratulations, it looks like a very nice instrument! 

Jon

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## PCypert

Alright. Not really a member of the bowl or anything (but have been checking ebay everynow and then to change that), but found this to be too funny. If you're in string category and then search for bowl there's a listing for a bowlback case....and it might fit a Gibson . Anything to get a sale I guess.
Paul

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## Jim Garber

That is one of those canvas chipboard cases which tend to fall apart. I did buy one recently after the seller of a mandolin i bought found the canvas case that belonged to that mandolin with some other things. She was nice enough to offer it to me at a reasonable price.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I've just received the <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fine-antique-Italian-MANDOLIN-CARLO-LOVERI-NAPOLI_W0QQitemZ7349398435QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ
&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Loveri</a>, which I've bought for one of our ensemble members. Pretty good shape -- some minor open seams in the bowl (which look stable enough) and a very slightly moved neck joint (about half a millimetre relief at the 10th fret). I should have noticed on the Ebay photo that one of the tuner buttons is missing, but I overlooked that. I'll have to get a replacement.

It's a well-made and interesting instrument, though. What I hadn't realised before is that Loveri had his own variation on the de Meglio side hole: his are at the rear of the instrument, either side of the tailpiece! Also, it has an unusual style of binding, with a fiddle-style protruding rim around the edge of the soundboard and along the underside of the neck joint.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

This shows the binding better. The three tortoiseshell pleectra (including one Ranieri) came with it as an unexpected bonus.

Martin

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## Plamen Ivanov

If the de Meglio side holes are "cooling vents", what Loveri`s back holes should be? Exhaust?! 

Nice mandolin!

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## guitharsis

Very nice, Martin. Congrats!

Doreen

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## PCypert

Good score on the pics at the very least.
Paul

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## onthefiddle

> martinjonas Sep. 29 2005, 10:27
> 
> Also, it has an unusual style of binding, with a fiddle-style protruding rim around the edge of the soundboard and along the underside of the neck joint.


I suspect that, on closer investigation, the lower part of this will prove to be external linings. These are most commonly encountered on Double Basses these days, but were also found on some Viols.

Jon

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## Jim Garber

I got a nice t-shell plectrum with my Demeglio. Sort of the same elongated teardrop. Mine needs some sanding and smoothing but I use it all the time with my Pandini.

As for the Loveri... do many of them have those sound ports? I never saw one before. I have to check my jpeg files later this evening.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

I found a rather miniscule photo of the butt of another Loveri showing the soundports.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> I suspect that, on closer investigation, the lower part of this will prove to be external linings. These are most commonly encountered on Double Basses these days, but were also found on some Viols.


You are quite right: these are external linings rather than an overlapping soundboard. It's really just binding that's designed to look somewhat like the edge of a violin. The actual edge of the soundboard is just where it would be on any other mandolin. You can see this on the rear-on photo above.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

An interesting Neapolitan bowlback from C.A. Kisslinger, 1887. This is a respectable maker, I believe, but one less common than some. Nice fluting on the bowl.

Jim

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## PlayerOf8

I call mine tone exits

George

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## Jim Garber

> An interesting Neapolitan bowlback from C.A. Kisslinger, 1887.


I think I was confusing this one with Giovanni Kasermann. Does anyone know this maker, Kisslinger.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Don't know anythign about him, but I'm surprised it went for over £400. OK, it's fluted, but otherwise doesn't look all that that distinguished or well-preserved.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

At first I thought this Emperor bowlback was an ornate antique, but it turns out that it is a product of Surf City which imports instruments from the orient. I have seen plainer bowlbacks that they sell, #but strangely, not on their web site.

I don't know of their bowlbacks, but I heard that for their money, the flatbacks are not too bad. Lark in the Morning carries some of them, I know. This one is too much over the top as far as ornamentation. Something less ornate might be worth checking out.

I especially like their description: "Hand crafted, gorgeous workmanship in the old world Venice tradition." Perhaps "old world Venusian tradition" might be better.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

In fact, Jim, that is the _very instrument_ the Emperor of China was playing when starved, irate peasants stormed his Pleasure Garden. He then promptly absconded to Venice, got himself a gondola, and found a whole new (and far more rewarding) lifestyle. 


 


P.S. Happy Ho, Jim!

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## Jim Garber

Aha! Victor, I knew you would have the historic background on this very interesting mandolin.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is the Surf City Old World bowlback. For the price it might be decent. I wonder...

Anyone play one of these?

Jim

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## Bob A

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/CITTERN-MANDOLA-BY-RAFFAELE-CALACE-SIGNED-1963-NR_W0QQitemZ7355244353QQcategoryZ10179QQssP
ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's</a> what looks to be a Calace liuto on ebay. Dated 1968, five double courses, scalloped ribs, the works. Someone here needs this.

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## Onesound

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/CITTERN-MANDOLA-BY-RAFFAELE-CALACE-SIGNED-1963-NR_W0QQitemZ7355244353QQcategoryZ10179QQssP
> 
> ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's</a> what looks to be a Calace liuto on ebay. Dated 1968, five double courses, scalloped ribs, the works. Someone here needs this.


Durn! I'm not looking for a mandola, but sure is tempting!

Saw the Surf City bowlback - not a bad price if it's a halfway decent instrument. Nowbody will expect concert levet at this price, but might make a good beater!

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## Jim Garber

> Durn! #I'm not looking for a mandola, but sure is tempting!


It's not a mandola but closer to a 5 course mandocello. I played the old one that they have in the Munier Orchestra. Big hunk of an instrument.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Soooo... are YOU, Big Trucker Jim, going for it?

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## Jim Garber

> Soooo... are YOU, Big Trucker Jim, going for it? #


Nah, unless it stayed under $300 

I would gladly step aside for you, Victor, or anyone else interested.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Now, lemme see... say, $300 for the liuto  , 2-3 *million* dollars for a somewhat larger (or, ehm... _less small_) apartment in Manhattan, an approximate $3,000 monthly maintenance and property taxes; that comes to about $303,629.17 _per STRING_.  

I don't think so, Jim. I leave such ambitions to those with attics, basements, garages, et al.

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## John Craton

Guess <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Mandolin-with-Bowl-Shaped-Back_W0QQitemZ7354868276QQcategoryZ359QQssPageName  ZWDVWQ
QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this one</a> is for playing the blues.

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## acumando

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...6011&rd=1&rd=1

"Fully restrung in 1995 by SCA professional."

Guess that explains why there were no wirecutters handy to trim the extra string length...

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## etbarbaric

Yes... I wonder if it was tuned in 1995 as well. This could give us great insight into mid-nineties period tunings! :-)

And isn't SCA professional a bit of an oxymoron? Maybe I'm missing something.

Eric

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## Jim Garber

I think that ref to SCA is a joke. Society for Creative Anacronism..

On the other hand I like the statement: "The bowl is rosewood with 16 fluted staves and 2 wider, non-fluted staves on the sides, characteristic of Martins high-end bowl-back models."

I see no fluting... not sure where they got that. Nevertheless, this could be a nice one for those wanting a quality American bowlback (tho the shipping is a little high IMHO). 1914 is the year BTW, if that serial number is correct.

Jim

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## Eugene

I don't think the seller knows what fluting means. That an early 20th-c. instrument could be considered a "perfect gift or accessory for devotees of Renaissance Faires or members of Society for Creative Anacronism" reveals that there is much more "creative anachronism" than "renaissance" to that lot. It does look to be pretty healthy style 0.

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## Eugene

...and I really like it...but I'm partial to Martins.

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## Martin Jonas

Sometimes one has to admire the boundless optimism of some <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/rare-antique-mandolin-not-many-made-collectors-iteim_W0QQitemZ7355662927QQcategoryZ10179QQ
rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">sellers</a>.

Martin

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## billkilpatrick

the el greco photos are a plus ... 

" ... loads o'lolly, hen' ... dead easy!!"

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## PCypert

I love the ###### photos and that he's never seen another one like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Paul

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## PCypert

It's weird...didn't type a dirty word. Guess my mom forgot to teach me about the C word.

Paul

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## trebleclef528

Quote: Sometimes one has to admire the boundless optimism of some sellers.

Martin 

Well Martin perhaps their optimism is on the slide... they started the bidding at £1000... nice them to reduce it to £400........ if they keep going to £4 I "might" go for it (i need some spare machine heads.

Regards,
ian

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## billkilpatrick

apropos of nothing that's been said recently, what's the consensus on LYON AND HEALY bowl backs? #there appears to be a well made and - i think - lovely looking instrument up for auction on ebay uk. #any comments?

- bill

sorry - forgot the ebay ref.:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....IT&rd=1

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## Martin Jonas

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/CITTERN-MANDOLA-BY-RAFFAELE-CALACE-SIGNED-1963-NR_W0QQitemZ7355244353QQcategoryZ10179QQssP
> 
> 
> ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's</a> what looks to be a Calace liuto on ebay. Dated 1968, five double courses, scalloped ribs, the works. Someone here needs this.


Yes, me! However, it's on the wrong side of the Atlantic, and I wouldn't want to have to deal with UK customs (who have a nasty habit of slapping VAT and duty on all sorts of things).

I suspect it won't stay reasonable, anyway. Oh, and I've just seen they won't ship overseas either.

Martin

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## Eugene

> apropos of nothing that's been said recently, what's the consensus on LYON AND HEALY bowl backs? #there appears to be a well made and - i think - lovely looking instrument up for auction on ebay uk. #any comments?


Lyon & Healy was the biggest music firm in the world in their day and built instruments for a heap of different brands. The original Washburn was their top line. The one linked was an entry level model (I used to own one). The headstock veneer is some ebonized mystery wood and prone to drying and degrading. Bindings and scratchplate inlay are celluloid. The bowl is Brazilian rosewood and the soundboard is decent quality spruce. This one looks to be pretty healthy.

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## Jim Garber

One of the order of the bowl currently has the high bid on the Calace liuto (musicisti). I hope he gets it.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Yet another variant on the sound port. This from a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Fine-Italian-Mandolin-Frattelli-Ferrari-of-Napoli-1890_W0QQitemZ7356043282QQcategoryZ10179
QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Fratelli Ferrari</a> currently on eBay.

Jim

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## Eugene

I'm watching. It's going to clock quite a bit for a 1914 Martin style 0.

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## Jim Garber

> I'm watching. #It's going to clock quite a bit for a 1914 Martin style 0.


I think that $400 for a Martin 0 would not be excessive, tho this one does look to be in good shape. Of course, it may go higher, but I would prob say not much higher.

Jim

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## billkilpatrick

apropos of nothing, italian ebay has suddenly leapt into life with some interesting bowl-backs on offer:

http://strumenti-musicali.ebay.it/

out of curiosity, is this the longest running thread on the cafe?

tante auguri - bill

----------


## onthefiddle

> (Eugene @ Oct. 07 2005, 12:14)
> I'm watching. It's going to clock quite a bit for a 1914 Martin style 0.





> (jgarber @ Oct. 07 2005, 14:31) I think that $400 for a Martin 0 would not be excessive, tho this one does look to be in good shape. Of course, it may go higher, but I would prob say not much higher.


From what I can see from the photos (which is never everything) this looks like a very nice instrument. As is commonly the case with the better old American manufacturers, the craftmanship and choice of materials appears to be impeccable. If Bill Monroe had played a bowlback prices would be very different - we can all be thankful of that I suppose!  

Jon

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## Jim Garber

Interesting "reissue" copy of a Vinaccia, according to the seller by student of a student....

The back loooks a little too blindingly white maple but might be a good player. I have heard fo Contino but I think more as a violin maker.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> One of the order of the bowl currently has the high bid on the Calace liuto (musicisti). I hope he gets it.


After many days of tantalisingly teasing with affordability, this spectacular instrument has now reached something approaching its true value, at $2325 with eight hours to go. Still less than half what one would pay for a new one from the Calace workshop, so maybe there's still some movement in this.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

I was considering bidding on this bowlback labelled Gaetano Vinaccia, but there is so much unclear about it, so I opted out. 

Gaetano of the early 20th century was considered by many to be one of the best makers, according to Sparks. But the label on this one does not resemble #the one below from 1906, nor does the signature match.

Also, the other few examples I have seen of this maker do not resemble this one,. In fact, of all the 60+ examples I have of Vinaccia bowlbacks, none have circular soundholes or pickguards that even come close to the shape of this one.

Anyone have any clues to this mystery? Is this a cousin or son of the clan or just someone capitalizing on the name?

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is the label from the ebay example.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I don't know. The year reads like 1917 to me (although it might just be 1927); if so, Italy was in the middle of war. Th label obviously has no resemblance to the one Jim posted, but then again it's at least 11 years later and the aesthetics of the label are consistent with the date. Unlike Jim, I do think that the signature has some similarity with the one on the older label; both of them have a very unusual (for Italian labels) lack of flourish. Having said that, there are some concerns. I also have not seen a Vinaccia with round soundhole. On the other hand, we know that in later years, Vinaccias started to incorporate Calace and Embergher features and the circular soundhole does feature in Calaces of the era. Possibly more importantly, by the time of this instrument (whether 1917 or 1927), fretboard extensions were the norm and as this is a relatively fancy instrument, I think it should have had one. For a real Vinaccia, this is a bargain-basement price!

Incidentally, I see that Gaetano is identified as "di Gennaro" on the label posted by Jim. I wonder how the dates fit in the family tree. Giuseppe put "fu Gaetano" on _his_ labels. Does that mean that the Gaetano that made the 1906 instrument (and the 1917/27 one?) is the _father_ of the Giuseppe that made my 1897 one and that was building with his own labels from at least 1891? That might just work with 1906, but 1917/27 is a serious generational stretch. The other possibility is that there were at least two active Gaetano Vinaccias in the period of 1880 to 1930, but if so, which is the one recommended by Sparks?

Martin

----------


## Eugene

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/CITTERN-MANDOLA-BY-RAFFAELE-CALACE-SIGNED-1963-NR_W0QQitemZ7355244353QQcategoryZ10179QQssP
> 
> ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's</a> what looks to be a Calace liuto on ebay. Dated 1968, five double courses, scalloped ribs, the works. Someone here needs this.


Well, it closed at US$3,400.00, which is still a better deal than could be had from a dealer who knew what he/she was doing. I'll wager the seller, who launched the auction at US$99.99, was pleased. Are any of you lot lc334acc? I'm sorry Richard didn't score this one.

----------


## RSW

I think it is a decent instrument but dangerously too close to the period when the Calace firms commitment to the standards of the past had let loose. At that price (which I didn't have anyway), I might as well save a few dollars more and get one from Dan (Larson) that I know will be excellent. I don't know the buyer but I'm sure he/she will make good use of the instrument.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Bob just posted in another thread:




> Just scored what hope is a quality Italian bowlback for $113 on the bay. The last one I saw from this maker sold for a grand, thru a dealer.


Details! We want details!

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

The third Ceccherini to come up in the last couple of months has just sold for £182. This one is for all purposes identical to mine and looks to be in similarly pristine condition. I think the ones with this style of tuner plates and the hole in the headstock are later models than the alternative style of tuner plates with peaks that meet in the middle. I paid much more, but can hardly complain as it's a great instrument. Still, all three of the ones sold recently will have been great bargains for the winners.

Martin

----------


## Bob A

Sharp eyes, Martin. It's a Monzino, which I hope is nearly as nice as the (rather fancier) one I got from Classical Mandolins last year. I was so impressed with the other that I just had to take a chance; even if it needs repairs, it's hard to go wrong at that price level. (That's the theory, anyway. Spare my illusions - now that I've dropped so many dinero on mandolins, illusions are all I have left).

----------


## Eugene

Say, I like that Monzino...even enough to be a little jealous. #I really need to find the time for eBay again.

----------


## Jim Garber

Seller says: 1898 Martin Style 5


Jim

----------


## Eugene

Looks like much of the text was borrowed from Bob Devellis. The bridge has eithr had its top shaved off or been semi-coarsely replaced. Given the early date, I would expect an inset bone saddle and suspect the bridge to be a replacement. It looks as though the bridge may also be shimmed. I wish more detail was evident.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is an <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/19th-Century-Neapolitan-Mandolin-by-Giovanni-De-Meglio_W0QQitemZ7357105988QQcategoryZ10179
QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">1895 Demeglio</a> model A with an unusual headstock shape.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Something a little different: 18th century mandolin by #Donatus Filano.

Have any of you folks in the UKL or Europe been to Tony Bingam's shop lately?

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

At the other end of the bowlback evolution from the Filano posted by Jim: 2001 Klaus Knorr.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> At the other end of the bowlback evolution from the Filano posted by Jim: 2001 Klaus Knorr.


That may be the same Raggianta I played. My friend from Montreal let me play his at one of the Carlo Aonzo workshops and he sold it to a fellow in the UK after he bought a Pandini. He saoid that this guy wanted to sell it.

Despite the changing of hands, it was a wonderful instrument, but as you can imagine, very Germanic in its soul. Perfect workmanship, tho.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Monzino arrived in mail this AM. A few flaws, hopefully none tragic: a rib separation, some of the red paper lining torn loose, missing pearl fboard inlay, a separation between the soundboard and treble edge binding near the neck attach area, and the missing bit at the bass end of the bridge. Action appears high, but the bridge itself is massive and quite high, so I'm guessing it could easily be shaved down.

Another workingman's instrument, with minimal decoration and 17 ribs, 22 frets. Label attributes instrument to Monzino and figle, and the instrument is dated in an elegant copperplate hand on the label, with what looks to be the day and month as well as year (1907), though some old stains make the date somewhat less than legible. I've had good luck with low-end instruments of the period, and I assume this one will be a pleasant addition, though it bears no real resemblance to my other Monzino, which is of rather different design. This one is rather wide at the base of the soundboard, and has the nearly nonexistant finish to the soundboard that I've seen on De Meglio and Ceccherini instruments (though I assume it's not limited to these makers). Almost raw wood - of course, so long as the top is sealed, I assume the less finish, the better, insofar as varnish seems to add little to the sound production.

I'm open to suggestions for the light repair this instrument needs: A bit of glue and some setup work, and a piece of pearl. Seems unnecessary to send it to TC for his painfully slow though exquisite resto artistry. PM me if you have a qualified US bowlback person.

BTW, I bid on (and lost, thankfully) a Gaetano Vinaccia violin dated 1831. So many Gaetanos, so few facts. Who ARE these guys?

----------


## Martin Jonas

> BTW, I bid on (and lost, thankfully) a Gaetano Vinaccia violin dated 1831. So many Gaetanos, so few facts. Who ARE these guys?


A Gaetano in 1831 is likely to be the father of Giuseppe, who in 1893 and 1897 signed himself "fu Gaetano".

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

I've posted some pictures of the Carlo Loveri in the Pictures Thread.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Yet another variant on the sound port. This from a #<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Fine-Italian-Mandolin-Frattelli-Ferrari-of-Napoli-1890_W0QQitemZ7356043282QQcategoryZ10179
> 
> QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Fratelli Ferrari</a> currently on eBay.


I don't know if people have noticed that the winner of this Ferrari has been asking questions abotu setup in the General Forum.

Incidentally, do we know whether the late-19th century Ferraris from Naples are the descendants of Caspare Ferrari (act. 1716-after 1776) of Rome (see Ralf's site)?

Martin

----------


## Bob A

Another fine instrument, Martin.

There seems to be two (at least) styles of Loveri instrument; with one having the DeMeglio type of wraparound pickguard, the other a more traditional design. Are there perhaps two (or more) Loveris making them? Or do they originate in the same workshop?

----------


## Bob A

I've posted a plea in the builder's forum for bowlback luthiers. It is my hope that by developing a list of qualified repairpersons, our cause and our instruments will benefit. I selfishly skewed it to N America, figuring to save on shipping and hassle. Parochial of me, no doubt; I plead enlightened self-interest rahter than continental chauvinism.

----------


## etbarbaric

> Incidentally, do we know whether the late-19th century Ferraris from Naples are the descendants of Caspare Ferrari (act. 1716-after 1776) of Rome (see Ralf's site)?


Actually, that excellent website (www.embergher.com) belongs to Alex Timmerman.

Eric

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Actually, that excellent website (www.embergher.com) belongs to Alex Timmerman.


You are entirely right, Eric: I was confusing Alex's excellent Embergher website in my mind with Ralf's Embergher book. Apologies to Alex!

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

How's <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Italian-Bowl-Back-Mandolin-by-Ferrari-Napoli-c1890_W0QQitemZ7358076775QQcategoryZ10179QQrd


Z1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> for an unusual soundhole shape? #

Also, this modern Greek Samouelian looks typical for Greek mandolins, but is not often found on Ebay. #Do you know the luthier, Victor?

Finally, here is a Stridente that wants to be a de Meglio.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

Martin, the address you posted is not responding...  

But, yes, of course, I do know Samouelian. His greatest blessing/curse is that he has a shop in Monastiraki, THE tourist shopping area beneath the Acropolis; needless to say, what one finds there is, well... tourist fare. I also doubt that much of what is displayed on his shelves is necessarily BY Samouelian. 

I do plan to visit him in February, when I (presumably) skip the pond for a weekend or so. As usual, I will report upon return. In the meanwhile, can you tweak the link?

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a link that seems to work for the Samouelian.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Thanks for the info, Victor. I believe I may well have browsed his shop window on a previous trip to Athens. At least I did walk past an instrument shop in Monastiraki with a lot of mandolins and assorted other folk instruments on display. I looked briefly and decided it was a tourist outlet (as, frankly, is just about everything else in that vicinity).

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

Hmm... this looks rather Atypical: the pegbox is not slotted, the fingerboard seems rather wide, the glare appears to reveal (?) a cant, etc. Also, I have never seen this particular lyre-design on any present-day Greek mandolins. I wish the seller had posted more images, especially of the sides and back of the instrument. Looks nice... I would certainly go out on a limb and ascertain that this is a Greek mandolin; the actual luthier, however, remains a mystery.

Still, it makes me wonder whether the instrument was actually _built_ by the venerable Mr. Samouelian, or whether it simply (and most probably) bears a label of his store. We may never know... If anyone here wishes to pursue this instrument, contact the seller with questions, and cross-examine the replies with me, I am at your service. The usual disclaimers of no personal interest and no eye-witness expertise apply.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Not an actual instrument, but <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandolino-Embergher-Rilievo-Plan-Poster_W0QQitemZ7360115960QQcategoryZ623QQssPageNa  meZWD2V
QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> listing on EBay Italy is an interesting poster/plan of the construction of an Embergher.

Martin

----------


## onthefiddle

Well spotted Martin! I haven't had much spare time to keep an eye on eBay lately, so would have missed this. I've ordered a copy.
Thanks!

Jon

----------


## vkioulaphides

Well, the Samouelian went for a meager GBP 61.50. By any estimate, a good buy; someone ought to be happy...

----------


## Jim Garber

> Not an actual instrument, but <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandolino-Embergher-Rilievo-Plan-Poster_W0QQitemZ7360115960QQcategoryZ623QQssPageNa  meZWD2V
> 
> QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> listing on EBay Italy is an interesting poster/plan of the construction of an Embergher.


I saw that also and am thinking of getting one. of course, i still haven;t gotten my copy of the Embergher book. For those who own ralf's book: does that have similar specs in it, drawing and the like?

Jim

----------


## onthefiddle

Hi Jim,

Ralf's book doesn't have the detailed specs that you can expect from an actual plan. It does contain a wealth of information though, and goes into depth regarding some areas about which you wouldn't expect to find detailed information in a plan. 
I expect that they will be complimentary, I suppose it depends on whether you're thinking of making an Embergeher model bowlback Jim - if so this plan has got to be pretty useful, but I would want the book as well. From the player and/or collectors point of view Ralf's book is more useful, but the poster will still be of some interest. 
I hadn't noticed that there were only two available, which leaves one now - you had best make your mind up! (I suspect that there are actually more than two copies available though  )

Jon

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## onthefiddle

I received the <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandolino-Embergher-Rilievo-Plan-Poster_W0QQitemZ7360115960QQcategoryZ623QQssPageNa  meZWD2V



%3Cbr%3E%3Cbr%3EQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">set of four posters</a> detailing a 1932 Embergher mandolin this morning, and am very pleased with them.

They contain much more detail than is normally found on similar posters, and are probably better compared with the slender books published by Turris detailing individual instruments.

I recommend them to anyone intending to make a mandolin modelled on an Embergher, or anyone who would simply like to know more about these beautiful instruments. For the amount of information you receive these posters are very good value for money.

Documentation of Embergher's instruments is certainly improving - first Alex's wonderful Embergher.com website, then Ralf Leenen and Barry Pratt's excellent book - The Embergher Mandolin, and now these posters. 

Jon

Edit: I see that there are now more sets of these posters available on ebay.

----------


## Neil Gladd

Speaking of mandolin posters...

----------


## Bob A

What might be a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-1907-Raffaele-Calace-Classical-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ7361961351QQcategoryZ10179QQssPa  g
eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Calace</a> 900 Brevettato, with a busted neck and a non-original bridge. Anyone who wants a fine fixer-upper should take a look.

----------


## Bob A

Also an interesting Vinaccia in the cafe classifieds.

----------


## Martin Jonas

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Florence-Mandolin-by-Bratti-Co-1889_W0QQitemZ7361640212QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcm  d
ZViewItem" target="_blank">This</a> one looks interesting, not least because I don't remember having seen many Florence-made mandolins. Looks in good condition, very nice flamed maple bowl, bone or ivory bridge, clearly heavily Vinaccia-influenced in decoration and hardware. Never heard of the maker (Bratti & Co) before. In view of recent Ebay prices, the current bid of £255 with four days to go is surprisingly high, unless those bidders know something I don't.

Speaking of Vinaccia influences, <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ITALIAN-BOWL-BACKED-VINTAGE-MANDOLIN-PROJECT-REPAIR_W0QQitemZ7361474816QQcategoryZ10179QQr
dZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here</a> is a basketcase d'Isanto (without Angara), with a grim-looking neck break.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

For those fans of the vintage American bowlback, a nice Vega style 3.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

The Vinaccia in the Classifieds is rather intriguing, not least because of its low asking price! If I were interested (I'm not looking at the moment), I would ask at least for a photo of the label to see whether it's legit. If it is, one of the regulars here should pounce!

Martin

----------


## Bob A

Someone just posted an AMerican bowlback mandola for $150 in the classifieds. One of us better get it before I'm tempted. At any rate it should get bought into this group, is not so?

----------


## Bob A

True to my word, I went after the mandola today. Thankfully it had already been sold.

Fess up - who bought it?

While in true confessions mode; I scored a Ceccherini off ebay. Came today - very nice instrument, double soundboard, some nice inlay, and all in all less frightening to play than my incredibly ornate example. (It's the one you can see in the Classical Mandolins site). Some replaced binding and a few old repairs, and a bit of overfinishing of the top perhaps, but nihil obstat, as they say. Nothing to prevent its immediate tuneful use.

----------


## guitharsis

Not me. Not looking right now. I'm pretty pleased with the Ceccherini. It plays and sounds great, better than the Stridente or even the deMeglio

Congrats on your Ceccherini! How does it sound compared to your other Ceccherini or your other bowlbacks?

----------


## Jim Garber

It looks like that Vinaccia was snapped up as well. The ad currently says On HOLD.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

The new Ceccherini is quite similar in its sound to the other example. I suppose I shouldn't find this surprising, but I do, somehow.

The tone is distinctive; they are different from the other mandolins, and have a sound that is more or less recognisable. Explaining exactly what they sound like is beyond me, at this time. The treble is perhaps a little thinner than some, but not in a negative way. I'll have to play some more, see if I can get a handle on it. It may well have a lot to do with the double sound board. I recall Martin saying his single-board Ceccherini has a darker sound than the double. Interesting, these little differences.

----------


## CervenySatek

guitharsis,




> Not me. Not looking right now. I'm pretty pleased with the Ceccherini. It plays and sounds great, better than the Stridente or even the deMeglio


Just curious about your comparison - do you play more classical or folk?

----------


## Jim Garber

It is obvious to me that I have a Ceccherini-sized hole in my collection that i ned to fill. Unfortunately I am in import Hades at the moment. When that smoke clears and i have my newest acquistion in my hands I will report here. Of course, the trade fees might very well wipe out my instrument fund for the moment, but i lknow I will bounce back.

Jim

----------


## guitharsis

CervenySatek,

I play a little of everything. My comparison is limited based on sound and playability of the three Italian bowlbacks that I have. 

Bob,
Thanks! Interesting that you find the Ceccherini tone different than the other mandos. Was curious because you have many to compare. It defnitely is difficult to describe sound.

----------


## Bob A

Yeah, it is. They're all Italianate, which to me implies more high partials - US bowls seem rather more strong in the fundamentals. But the Ceccherinis both have a rather shimmery treble that is appealing. I suppose metal saddle and zero fret contribute their part.

How close are your De Meglio and Ceccherini, Guitharsis? (I'm assuming you have a metal saddle on the De Meglio).
I wish I had a digicamera. The side view of the nut shows that the nut and zero fret are all one piece of metal, with some nice filework on the "nut" portion. And they are made of some noncorroding metal: no oxidation at all. An interesting constructiuon detail, and one that makes a lot of sense to me.

----------


## guitharsis

I don't have a metal saddle on the deMegliio, Bob. The young luthier I brought it to for a replacement bridge had all he could do to make one in rosewood. It does have a nice open loud sound but doesn't compare to the Ceccherini. Because it doesn't have the metal saddle, it's probably not a fair comparison.
The Ceccherini is very responsive and the treble is quite appealing.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Congratulations on your new Ceccherini -- we can open the club of the double Cecchs...

The nut/zero fret construction of the Ceccherinis is great: such a simple yet intuitively right system. There's a photo of the nut in my single-top Ceccherini here. That one is in brass; my other one is in a silvery metal, which may well be actual silver, and is a bit more intricately worked on the same principle. On each instrument, the saddle is in the same metal as the nut. My single-top is indeed considerably darker than the double-top; it's also considerably quieter, as well as smaller in the bowl and lighter. It's intriguing in its uniqueness: I still have never seen any other single-top Ceccherinis, which increasingly lets me suspect it's a particularly early example rather than an entry-level model. Despite the great differences in tone, both are wonderfully satisfying instruments to play. I can't say that I would consider the treble on the double-top to be a bit thin, as Bob said. Quite the opposite: tremolo on the E-string is a room-filling, indeed concert-hall-filling, sound of pure crystalline beauty. The tone of the single-top breaks up when driven too hard, that of the double-top doesn't and just keeps on getting louder if hit harder.

Martin

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## billkilpatrick

this pertains to bowlbacks of a different note ...

i just sold the cheapy bowlback i bought a few months ago. i didn't like the sound ... it looked too glossy ... i must have been out of my mind ... etc., etc.. i sold it for about a third of what i paid for it originally so the moral of the story is ... you don't always get what you paid for (it).

but that aside, on the following business to business listing i just happened to see where the mandolin originally came from:

http://gidis.en.ec21.com/3/2/Origina...om_Naples.html

wholesale anyone? ... import/export? ... have i got a mandolin for you?

- bill

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## Jim Garber

There is a whole page of these types of mandolins <a href="http://www.handmadeinnaples.com/category.php~idx~~~67~~menumode~~~c~~menumodec~~~6  7~~menumodem~~~0~~nocache~~~1131141606~~
Mandolini+e+strumenti+popolari~.html" target="_blank">here</a>.

Jim

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## billkilpatrick

do you know anything about these instruments? are they really "handmade?" ... in italy? the instrument i bought wasn't all that bad, it just wasn't what i had in mind ... or ... in ear. these look very much like it but doubled - and then some! - in price.

once i get the olives taken care of, i might take a train down to naples and have a look around.

- bill

----------


## Jim Garber

I checked the Interview link mentioned by Alex on the same site as the Ali Stephens interview and found this article by Allan Greenwood about his bowlback collection. A little disapointment since even he dismisses them as good for collecting but not playing and he doesn't even mention the quality instruments. Oh well, he does admit to being primarily a guitarist.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Yes, I saw that interview a while back and wasn't terribly impressed. It looks like he got that collection in pre-Ebay days by going around junk shops. There's no way of telling from the article whether he managed to find any decent instruments at all or whether his "collection" is just the usual debris one finds on Ebay UK on any given day. It's also unclear from this whether he would know the difference.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

The article is illustrated with some nice upper-end instruments-- I think the first is a Calace.

Martin, perhaps you should write a follow-up article. Then again, maybe we don;t want that many more converts... 

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

I hadn't really noticed the pictures, but you're right: the first one looks rather Calace-esque and the second one Vinaccia-esque. So, maybe he has indeed got a decent collection. Given the lack of knowledge of bowlbacks in the general public, it's entirely possible to pick up such instruments at car boot sales or junk shops for between 15 and 100 Pounds, as he did. As I said a while ago, one of our ensemble members got a Giuseppe Vinaccia (albeit pretty wrecked) for 15 Pounds in just such a place. I don't think that's possible on Ebay anymore for the big names, although for the intermediate makers it still is.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

At first I thought that this Greenwood was the same guy who co-writes the VG Price Guides but I see that he spells his first name differently.

I wonder if he has any of those mandolins pictured. My thought is probably not. Perhaps we could contact him thru that site and see what he has.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

> As I said a while ago, one of our ensemble members got a Giuseppe Vinaccia (albeit pretty wrecked) for 15 Pounds in just such a place. I don't think that's possible on Ebay anymore for the big names, although for the intermediate makers it still is.


For a while I thought I would prove myself instantly wrong on this point, when this alleged Vinaccia stayed at £25 with a few minutes to go. It went up in the end to £144. I bid to £100, but wasn't sufficiently convinced of the authenticity to go any further. I asked the seller for a photo of the label and he replied that he had tried and failed to photograph it. That's not a problem I've ever had with a flash camera. If the dubious attribution is correct, then this is a bargain; if it isn't, the winning price is well above the odds.  The scratchplate and soundhole surround do look to be in early Vinaccia style, but the headstock and tailpiece don't. I suspect that if there is any authenticity, then it's an old mixed-stringing instrument that was converted to steel stringing. If so, then there is a big question mark over what that did to its structural integrity. The action is given as 5mm at the 17th fret, i.e. around 3.5mm at the 12th. Not too bad, actually, but needing some lowering for playability.

Another instrument I had my eye on but decided not to go for in the end is this no-name German mandola. Nice-looking, but the seller herself described it as being not in playing condition, with an action at the 12th fret of 6mm and some sinkage of the top around the soundhole. I would have considered it for below 100 Euro, but it went for more than twice that.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

I've been tracing, and getting ready to bid on, this Ferrari, if only for the thrill of having an instrument with scalloped ribs. Looks a nice one, but I gave up on it when the price more than doubled in the last minute of bidding. Still, this may have been a decent deal for the winner. A better deal anyway than the <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Florence-Mandolin-by-Bratti-Co-1889_W0QQitemZ7361640212QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcm  d
%3Cbr%3EZViewItem" target="_blank">Bratti</a> I posted a while ago: yes, it looks a nice instrument, but £627??

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

That Ferrari looks a little too gaudy for your good taste, Martin. Besides it looks like it needs some luthier touch for the missing pearl pieces, etc and prob to make it playable. I can't figure out that Bratti either. Anyone have a clue except for the fact that maybe bowlbacks from Firenze are rare?

BTW, folks, my Calace "of note" #finally arrived today. I will post pictures in the Post a Pic section later. For those of you who know some or all of the travails it went thru -- the baby is safe at home. It looks to be in very good shape but missing the metal rod for the saddle. Also one of the little rosewood bridge markers came off. Luckily it was in the case.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

> That Ferrari looks a little too gaudy for your good taste, Martin.


Well, yes, and that's why I didn't go any further. Still, Ferrari has a reasonably good name, so a scalloped instrument from him should have a decent intrinsic musicality and not just a pig/lipstick affair. I was willing to bet £120 on that theory, but not £200.

I any case, I have my eyes out on something much tastier (more later -- loose talk sinks ships and so on...).

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

I posted photos of the 1921 Calace on the Post a Picture... thread.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> What might be a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-1907-Raffaele-Calace-Classical-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ7361961351QQcategoryZ10179QQssPa  g
> 
> eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Calace</a> 900 Brevettato, with a busted neck and a non-original bridge. Anyone who wants a fine fixer-upper should take a look.


Over $2000 now on this one with one day to go. If this were pristine, what would it get on the open market? $4000? Seems like this current bid is high for an instrument with a snapped-off neck. The high bidder is one of the active bowl-buyers.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim,


This is indeed a splendid mandolin and once it will be restored you´ll even better see the grandeur of it. 

It is a special 1907 Calace ´Brevettato [1]900´. With - what I believe is - an original fingerboard with 31 frets; therefore probably made for an excellent player. #

This makes this particular Calace mandolin very special. Also because there is only one other mandolin that comes up in my mind, that has this large number of frets; and that is the 1900 Luigi Embergher mandolin (an artistic model N.7) Silvio Ranieri played and that, I believe, is still owned by the Rainieri family. 


Best, and let´s see what this one makes!

Alex.

PS. Let´s hope that this fine Calace will not be ruined and that it will be well restored (I do not think that the visable damage at the moment will give problems to a good restorer). Than it will easily fatch the highest amount of money you mentioned above.

----------


## Jim Garber

I was looking arounat the Museum page on Frank Ford's frets.com. CVheck out these three bowlbacks:

1897 DeJulio
1900 DeJulio
1900 Bauer

What is esp interesting is that the 1897 DeJulio has a label that mentions that he is a former foreman of L. Ricca. Ricca is a special interest of mine. i find it interesting that there are so few of his mandolins around with his label on them, but facts indicate that he was a fairly large manufacturer. Mike Holmes says that at the peak, the Ricca factory had about 200 employees. It is therefore likely that his factory supplied many mandolins under other labels.

So far I have documented Antonio Grauso, C. Biggio and now C.M. DeJulio as disciples of Luigi Ricca's shop. These makers thought it important enough to mention this on their labels similarly to those allievi of Vinaccia.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Not exactly a bowlback, not exactly PC, but perhaps <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/JUNGLE-s-MANDOLINO-La-Racchia-Jungle-s-Men_W0QQitemZ4791069133QQcategoryZ39174QQrdZ1QQcmd  Z
ViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> belongs in your collection? Cetainly uncommon.

----------


## Jim Garber

The Calace 900 wnet for $2,385. It looks like the high biddergot nervous that he/she would be outbid -- there are indications that he/she upped the bid higher. I wonder how high he/she was willing to go.

Speaking of Calace's: I need to find a replacement saddle for my lowly recent acqusition (model24?). It looks like ti should be a brass rod to be inserted into the bridge slot. Does anyone have a similar one that I can get measurements for and a source of brass rods that would suit?

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Jim: No idea what the dimensions for your Calace were, but as far as brass rods are concerned, what I used for the saddle of my Rinaldi was a length of circular brass rod from a modelmaking shop. A 20cm length cost 70 Pence and is quite enough for a lot of trial and error. The shop I got them from was supplied by K&S. As this is a US firm you may well be able to get this from a similar shop near you. On the Rinaldi (and on the Ceccherinis), the saddle support is flat, so in order to make the round rod sit well in its slot, I needed to flatten one side with a fine file. That was relatively straightforward, if a bit laborious. Taking off a quarter of the diameter is plenty to make a good flat surface for the rod to sit on.

Good luck, and congratulations on your gorgeous Calace! I love the looks of it, in particular the contrast between the dark and light woods!

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

> In any case, I have my eyes out on something much tastier (more later -- loose talk sinks ships and so on...).


Keeping quiet about it didn't help -- I bid on this very tasty Brescian mandolin by Monzino, but after a late flurry of activity it tripled in price in the last few hours and I dropped out at little more than half the eventual winning bid. #I was hoping that not enough people know about the Brescian type to get involved, but it appears I was wrong. Ten different bidders is quite an impressive level of interest.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

I have asked Michael Gresham to give me diameter and the typoe of metal for the saddle of his 1913 Calace. I will contact K&S and check at our local craft megastore to see if they have anything of the sort. Ironically I could not find a list of K&S dealers on that site, but perhaps they will sell me some pieces.

As to that Monzino, Martin: there are no secrets when something appears on eBay. I was able to get a reasonable deal on my Calace because I went outside of eBay. Even then I had to have it shipp[ed from South Africa and after all the fees etc it ended up costing me a fair amount. Hopefuly it will be worth the trouble and cost. It is in pretty good shape.

That does look like a nice Monzino and franky the price was not unreasonable IMHO. I guess we all have to up our spending limits to keep up with this interest.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

I also don't think the winning price on the Monzino was unreasonable; it was just a question of how much I wanted to have one. At 300 Euro (which for a long time looked like a likely winning bid), it would have been a nice opportunisitic bargain to add an interesting side track to my selection of instrument. At 600, it would have had to be something I was actively searching out rather than a chance find.

Interesting in any way to see that Monzino made this style of mandolin. It seems that most of the late-19th/early 20th century Milanese or Brescian mandolins were made by Albertini. The Monzino looks if anything nicer than the Albertinis.

I'm just now looking at the booklet for Ugo Orlandi's "Serenata Veneziana". It has a picture of a Brescian Albertini on the back, but no indication in the liner notes that anybody actually played one on the CD. The liner notes list Orlandi's instruments as being a 1981 Calace, a 1999 Pandini and an 1895 Monzino (specifically identified as "mandolino napoletano").

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I will contact K&S and check at our local craft megastore to see if they have anything of the sort. Ironically I could not find a list of K&S dealers on that site, but perhaps they will sell me some pieces.


Going off-topic: browsing the K&F site brought up this intriguing line of products. I know a few women who would have very explicit opinions on this...

Martin

----------


## Bob A

As it happens, my mother owned a tool like the one described, minus the froofy decorations. She must have bought it back in the 1950s. It did come in handy.

Regarding the Brescian instrument, I think the Albertinis had a scalloped fretboard, while I don't think this one does. Price is not bad: I was pursuing an Albetini from Italy last year, and it sold to someone for around $900, in need of repair. The first run-thru on ebay.it found no bidders, and my lowball after the auction went nowhere.

----------


## Jim Garber

A Herwiga Soloist mandola just appeared in the classifieds in the UK. Ad# 16287.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Another <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-von-Wilhelm-Herwig-Markneunkirchen_W0QQitemZ7364673842QQcategoryZ1017  9QQrdZ1QQcm
dZViewItem" target="_blank">Herwiga</a>, this one vintage.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Well, I couldn't quite wait any longer. I found and ordered three different gauges of brass rod from a hobby dealer (can;t find one local to me). I had to buy in quantity, so i will have lots for a long time. If anyone needs any brass rod, LMK. I will be glad to share.

In the meantime-- and I hope I haven't broken any of the rules of the Order of the Bowl -- I straightened out a large paper clip and used that for a temporary bridge saddle until the rods come in th4e mail. I strung the Calace up with Dogal Calace Dolce strings and we are off and running. 

Even tho the strings are new, it does sound nice and bright. Compared to the Pandini it is so light in weight that it feels like it could float off my lap. Tone is nice and round esp in the lower registers. I am not sure about the higher as yet since the paperclip is probably much softer than the brass for a saddle. I will withohold judgement until I install that one. I might have someone who knows what they are doing do some final adjustments. 

My first playable Big Three bowlback!

Jim

----------


## Eugene

Man, I'm of greenish hue.

----------


## Jim Garber

It must be German bowlback week:

Mandolin by Albin Dotzauer.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Mike Schroeder has his revamped 1925 Calace on eBay at a relatively low starting bid. It be interesting to see how high it goes.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Very short notice: this 1897 maple bowl from Trieste (which at that time was still Austrian, not part of Italy) is very similar indeed to my Giuseppe Vinaccia, and even more similar to the 1893 Giuseppe Vinaccia currently being restored by one of my ensemble colleagues. #It has a non-Vinacciaesque slotted headstock, but the bone pegs at the tailpiece typical of most Vinaccias. #The label says "C. Schmidl", which a quick web search shows to have been a very prominent music publisher in Trieste. #When he died in the 1920s, he left his inheritance to the City, which now has a "Teatro C. Schmidl". #Thinking of the practice of US music publishers of the time to label instruments with their own names, it seems a fair bet that this instrument was made for, but not by, Schmidl. #There is another name on the label "Lavoro eseguito dall' artifice Fernando Del Perugia". #That may be the actual workshop; if it is, I've never heard of it.

If the resemblance to my GV is more than cosmetic, it might be a very nice instrument: my Vinaccia has now become very much more responsive than it was initially and is a joy to play. #Different from my Ceccherini, but intriguingly so.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> There is another name on the label "Lavoro eseguito dall' artifice Fernando Del Perugia". #That may be the actual workshop; if it is, I've never heard of it.


There is a rather nice-looking one pictured on the Woll site, tho the headstock is more Vinaccia. No label pictured but I would imagine it said something using the word "allieve".

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

The Woll one looks to have been refinished in an inappropriate gloss, but is otherwise broadly similar to the Ebay one, if a bit fancier. I would suppose that the extended fingerboard was expected by 1904: the de Meglio 1A models had it as well by then.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

This looks to be a nice Calace clone, and is already at £200 with three days to go. I got some higher resolution pictures from the seller, and it looks a bit rougher than on the Ebay photos, but quite nice. The split in the bowl is about ten centimetres long and needs fixing (but looks straightforward) and there is some MOP binding and part of the armguard missing on the bass side. The label is mistranscribed on the Ebay entry: it's actually "Fratelli de Falco". Plamen has recently posted about playing (and liking) a de-Meglioesque de Falco and there is another de Falco advertised  here for the rather breathtaking asking price of 5000 Euro. Nice maple bowl, but I think too expensive for me.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Martin:
 I think the interest in this De Falco is that the seller mentioned that there is a label under the De Falco one. I would think that a few folks were thinking Calace as well. 

BTW what the Italian seller of the second one you mention says is something like " Estimated from authoritative luthiers around 5000 , I will sell to the highest bidder."

Jim

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## Jim Garber

This is the web page for Claude Patenotte who, I believe, is the son of Louis Patenotte. Patenotte Sr. had mandolins under his label (unclear whether they were all made by him or his shop or made *for* him. Some have the Gelas double-topped design. It looks like his son is maintaining that tradition.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Fascinating to see that somebody is still making Gelas style instruments. Has anybody here played this type and can comment on what this kind of double-top did to tone? They make Ceccherini's designs seem very conservative.

On a related note, I'm not sure whether the bowlback crowd has noticed this posting in the general forum, abouf a Fratelli Ferrari currently being restored by Jon.

Martin

----------


## Bob A

Here's a mandolin from Calace, or should I say Calace's father? Someone here needs this mandolin more than I do. Let's not let it get away.

----------


## mandoisland

Hi to all
I bought this one Wunderschöne Mandoline
Any idea what kind of mandolin this might be? The pickguard reminds me to some American bowlbacks. I can add more pictures when I have got the mandolin.

----------


## Jim Garber

Hah! I thought that Wunderschöne was the brand name. Off the top of my head, it doesn't look like anything American I know of. Eugene has better internal visual memory for these. The pickguard is reminscent of Lyon & Healy products but i haven;t seen any with that sort of inlay esp the border around the pickguard.

Jim

----------


## onthefiddle

It appears that the bridge, and presumably the fingerboard, of your mandolin is radiused. I don't recall seeing an American bowlback with such a setup before. 
The scratch plate reminds me most of those seen on the "Neapolitan College of Music" Mandolinettos which appear fairly frequently on eBay UK.
It looks like you got a bargain at 51 ! 
Congratulations!

Jon

----------


## Jim Garber

This is what Jon is referring to for the Neapolitan College.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> Here's a mandolin from Calace, or should I say Calace's father? Someone here needs this mandolin more than I do. Let's not let it get away.


The seller says (I think) that he guarantees the authenticity. Can it be so? This nlooks like the top was painted or amateurly refinished. The label looks right but the only other labelled Antonio I have in my files is a rather ornate fluted back pearl fretboarded one dated 1869. This one looks amazing plain.

I am sure that it will go for too much money. BTW that refurbished Calace went for a reasonable $773. Not a bad price for a player's instrument, tho mostly unoriginal. He was originally asking $2500 in the classifieds but got about $3500 each for his other three more original ones.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Hmmm. I would have thought the refurbished Calace would have got more. I think he should have made more of its playability in the item description. The de Falco mentioned above is currently at about the same money (£410); although fancier, I think it will need some refurbishment and even then it'll be a clone, not a real Calace (and I don't think the under-label will turn out to be Calace).

Martin

PS: £770 for the de Falco in the end. Too much, I would have thought.

----------


## Jim Garber

I believe that this is one of the higher prices paid for a Demeglio 1A: £310 ($531). That one is in pretty good shape it looks like. 

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Do we have any handle on what the difference between the various de Meglio shops (or luthiers?) is: this one is a Vincenzo de Meglio, others of the same period are labelled Giovanni de Meglio. Any other names? I'm pretty sure I've seen some around that had no first name indicated at all. Were they father and son, or brothers? Different luthiers in the same shop, or competing separate shops? Whichever, their mandolins look very much alike and both seem to be going for the model designation "1A". One thing I've notices is that some have the chunky bridge style seen on the latest Ebay one, and others have much more slender bridges, similar to the Ceccherinis. I used to think the chunky ones were replacements, but maybe it's just the way Vincenzo preferred them.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Pardon my denseness, Martin. I didn't even notice the difference in first names. Mine is a Giovanni and labelled 1901 model B/1/A and a serial number. The birdge is slender (not sure how it compares ot the Ceccherinis) and has an X incised at either end.

Nowe I need to check my files to see which are Vincenzos and which are Giovannis. I'll be back later. 

Jim

----------


## guitharsis

Noticed that deMeglio on ebay but didn't bid. Didn't notice the name difference. Interesting. Mine is also a Giovanni, 1897, 1A, #6621. 

Bernunzio's has a deMeglio that looks to be in pretty good condition.

Doreen

----------


## Martin Jonas

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/A-RARE-VINTAGE-MANDOBASS-MANDOCELLO-BASS-MANDOLIN_W0QQitemZ7367439199QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ
1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">This</a> one is described as a bowlback mandobass, but with that scale length, I think it would be better described as either a bowlback tenor guitar or an octave domra. Curious beast, either way.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/A-RARE-VINTAGE-MANDOBASS-MANDOCELLO-BASS-MANDOLIN_W0QQitemZ7367439199QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ
> 
> 1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">This</a> one is described as a bowlback mandobass, but with that scale length, I think it would be better described as either a bowlback tenor guitar or an octave domra. #Curious beast, either way.


Probably more of a single-course mandocello.

That seller is quite strange. He has a site but none of the links work. he knows and states that but I think I emailed him a year or two ago and you'd think he'd fix it by now. Probably would take a hour or so to do it. I think I may even have offered to fix it for him.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

I just won this Bruno an Embergher-clone made in Torino. I am not even sure if this is the same Bruno in the US but I have never seen a US Bruno that had that label. It could have been imported to the US by Bruno, who, I believe is a distributor.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Congrats, Jim!

This Roman style mandolin looks like a very nice and interesting one. I´ll bet you´ll be surprised by it´s sound!

Now you can perhaps go for this 1971 <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/mandolino-embergher-pasquale-pecoraro_W0QQitemZ7367835523QQcategoryZ10179QQssPa  geNameZWD2V





QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Pasquale Pecoraro concert model N.6.</a>


Best, 

Alex

----------


## Martin Jonas

That Bruno looks intriguing, Jim, at a wonderful price. Let us know how it sounds! I don't know anything about the history of the US Bruno outfit; maybe they had a branch in the Italy, or maybe it's an unrelated shop.

That Pecoraro is of course out of this world, but so is its price. It has already made its considerable starting price and still has a long way to go.

Ma

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi MartinJonas,

Of course EUR 2.300,00 is a lot of money to open the auction with. But in fact not much for an instrument by that maker and of that outstanding quality.

Best, Alex

----------


## Martin Jonas

Alex,

Yes, I'm well aware that a realistic value for a Pecoraro N.6 is a lot higher than 2300 Euro. That's a lot less than a new Pandini goes for, and the Embergher players I have spoken to would not swap theirs for a Pandini. I have no doubt that it will go much higher than its starting bid. I'm just not in the market for something in that range at the moment -- I'm still stretching my playing to get the best out of my (increasingly wonderful!) Giuseppe Vinaccia.

Martin

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Martin,

I see what you mean. And be sure that a Vinaccia is wonderful also! 
It is only that I find it strange that people (and especially mandolinists (and guitarists) nearly always don´t want or like to pay for quality. 
And than I just wonder, don´t they hear quality sound? And secondly, don´t they see outstanding design and excellent workmanship?


Well, that was what I was thinking about when I answered your mail. You know, if one really wants one good mandolin...

Best, Alex

----------


## Bob A

Lovely instrument, that Pecoraro.

I don't quail (too much) at paying respectable prices for mandolins, and I'd certainly like this one (I think). I do have a problem with getting it, from Italy, thru ebay, from a seller with one prior transaction, who may well not speak English.

It's my view that if I'm to pay $5000+ for a mandolin, that I'd like to play it first, ot at least have the right of refusal and return if it doesn't meet my expectations. I'd also like some assurance that it actually exists in a form more solid than a digital picture. I'd even consider doing the deal if a qualified agent were to examine the instrument in situ.

This is the second top-end Pecoraro I've seen in the market in about 3 years. Would that they were more readily available.

----------


## Jim Garber

Yes, I do hope that my fake Embergher will sound and play well. It is surprisingly similar, tho made in Torino (nowhere near Arpino). It does look like it has that more lamond shape to the bowl and a similar radiussed fretboard.

That Pecoraro looks quite nice. I doubt it will stay Pandini-priced given the rarity and the respect that that maker gets. I did a "translation" on freetranslation.com and go this (for your entertainment):




> mandolin embergher "Easter Shepherd" student embergher year 1971


Jim

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## guitharsis

Congrats, Jim! Nice mandolin. Great price.
This one was actually in the US?!

Doreen

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## Jim Garber

> Congrats, Jim! #Nice mandolin. #Great price. This one was actually in the US?!


Yes, this is still strange to me tho. Bruno was essentiually a distributor but must have commissioned instruments from various manufacturers in the US and abroad. I would think tho that they would more likely have imported mandolins from Naples or Catania since there were so many makers there. I am not sure who the makers were up in the north in Torino, but I imagine there must have been some.

My 1888 catalog shows one of those Mirecourt violin pegged models but nothing like this one, tho that would have been in a later catalog anyway.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

This mandolin labelled Benson seems to be an exact clone of a Vega style 3. Probablky made by vega for the store/company.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Some nice (but pricey) mandolins at Sinier-de Ridder (click on mandolin):

I wrote for prices and conditions and here is what they said:



> Mandolin by Raffaele Calace, Neaples circa 1910. 2200 
> some restored cracks on the top, ready to play
> 
> Mandolin by Egildo Emanuele, made in 1915, number 320. is reserved untill 28 november.
> 
> Mandolin by Luigi Embergher, Roma 1923 , 3500  one restored crack on the top (under the G strings), restored, ready to play.
> 
> Mandolin, Umberto Ceccherini, Naples (Italy), circa 1900, 1300  in perfect condition, ready to play.
> 
> Mandolin, Gallesi, circa 1930 , 1500 , perfect condition, ready to play.


There is also a beautiful ornate Salsedo there. I believe that that one and the Ceccherini have been there for a long time. The Ceccherini esp seem seriously overpriced by at least double even if it is perfect and worked over by their expert shop.

I don't know why, but I always seem to have trouble with their site.

Jim

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## Bob A

Shades of Merrill - an <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ancienne-mandoline-citare-mandolin-mandolino-banjo_W0QQitemZ7368522609QQcategoryZ104485QQr
dZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Egyptian</a> aluminum bowlback.

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## RSW

I can recommend the Gallesi mandolin, I've played it and several others some months ago and this instrument was the most impressive with respects to cost/playability and general soundness. The other pedigree instruments that I tried all had issues that would require some X factor in terms of serious restoration. I admit that I am extremely picky about HOW and instrument plays. Usually one encounters problems neck warp, needing a reset or at least redressing, not always possible with the very thin fingerboards). Consistently good playing instruments are Embergher/Pecoraro instruments, the latter being less endearing tonally though there are some exceptions. Players who played on Pecoraro mandolins include Saint-Clivier and Anneda. They also have a slightly wider fingerboard which is a happy improvement (in my opinion) on the Embergher original. So many of the modern creations I've seen and tried have also been disappointing to play though I'm sure one can get used to anything and bring out the best. For Bob, if that Pecoraro is screaming at him, he better just go for it. He can always have it sent to me (within Europe) and I can bring it over in March. If the price remains within the cost of a modern repro... why I see no problems, just make sure you conduct the payment through Paypal for your own peace of mind.

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## billkilpatrick

theres's an interesting, 6-string mandolin up for offer on ebay germany. before putting in a bid i thought i'd place it before this august panel of thumb-uppers/downers for your expert advice and opinion ... 

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws....9398&rd

thank you - bill

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## Martin Jonas

Fixed link.

That's a typical Milanese mandolin. Scalloped frets (as is typical), six single strings, tuned in fourths (the final incarnation of the mandolino in fourths). I don't know the maker, Serafino Casini: most of these are made either by Albertini or by Monzano. Looks a decent instrument if you're looking for something in that vein. Starting bid of 350 Euro suggests the seller knows that, too.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> theres's an interesting, 6-string mandolin up for offer on ebay germany. #before putting in a bid i thought i'd place it before this august panel of thumb-uppers/downers for your expert advice and opinion ... 
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.de/ws....9398&rd


Bill:
My Lombard mandolino is made by the same maker. I need to retrieve if from the shop. Mine is somewhat fancier and made in 1896 in Firenze.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here are a few more Casinis: a 4 string (Brescian?) a guitar and another Lombard almost as fancy as mine. Date is around 1894.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Ceccherini. This one has a few more signs of usage than mine, missing a few fretboard markers and a bit of binding, but nothing that looks terribly serious.

Martin

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## guitharsis

Pretty headstock on that Ceccherini.

Doreen

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## Eugene

It looks like the seller has real gut on that Casini mandolino Lombardo/Lombard mandolin. There were a whole lot of builders of such things; Musikalia is still marketing their own questionable version. Tuning is g-b-e'-a'-d"-g".

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## Jim Garber

> Ceccherini. #This one has a few more signs of usage than mine, missing a few fretboard markers and a bit of binding, but nothing that looks terribly serious.
> 
> Martin


I may attempt this one, but I have had bad luck on most Ceccherinis. I actually think the starting price is high for something that needs a moderate amount of luthier aid. We'll see.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

It's feast or famine for Ceccherinis. Sometimes months have passed without one appearing. I must say I'm really enjoying the one I got recently. 

Had been sore tempted by the Pecoraro, but must back off. Anyway, with luck it'll end up in a Consort we're familiar with: a good home.

----------


## mandoisland

Yesterday I got the mandolin I bought recently, and I have just prepared a small foto-album with more pictures. I was surprised that the mandolin has holes similar to the holes of the de Meglio mandolins on the sides of the bowl. The mandolin is really very beautiful as well as the nice strap (fastened with a nice MOP button on the mandolin head) and the handmade carrying bag. I am not sure about the binding, it looks like a kind of plastic - has celluloid been used in those days? Very special is the radiused fingerboard. Enjouy the pictures and if you have any idea who could be the one that built this mandolin - let me know. wunderschöne Mandoline

----------


## Martin Jonas

That's a lovely instrument, especially at the price! I see that Jim and Jon both didn't think it looked American, but just looking at the tuners, they are exactly the same as on two 1890s American bowls posted a few months ago, one of them anonymous with a "New York" stamp on the neck block, the other a bottom-of-the-line Washburn. I post a picture of the anonymous headstock below. It's of course possible that the hardware was imported from Europe, so this doesn't mean that yours is American, but it is a possible lead.

Martin

----------


## Bob A

I got a distinct "American" vibe from the herringbone trim and the tailpiece cover; the bridge is reminiscent of Vega, and the outline around the scratchplate also looks American, among other subliminal clues. But I'm nowhere near certain on that. Also, it's extremely uncommon to find an American bowlback in Europe, where they are little known and generally disdained, I think. I've not noted DeMeglio-style cutouts on US mandolins either, but I'm no expert, just tossing in a few observations for what they're worth.

----------


## Eugene

The tailpiece on the wunderschöne Mandoline certainly has an American vibe to it, but it could be a replacement. Everything else about it strikes me as European. A number of American builders used herringbone, but much of that was bought in pre-assembled bulk from Germany, and its application here--to accent even more decor like pearl in mastic or the half-herringbone soundhole binding--looks rather German to me. The brass bar as a saddle and strong radius to the fingerboard would be unusual on an American mandolin (I don't recall ever having encountered those features on any ca. 1900 American mandolin). The scratchplate with rather bright ivory-colored celluloid looks somehow newer than the instrument around it to me. Front-mounted tuners were pretty common early on in the "golden era," and I don't think their use necessarily implies a place of origin. Congrats, mandoisland, and enjoy.

----------


## Jim Garber

2001 Pandini in the classifieds (located in UK): ad#16516

The price is only 100 less than Pandini got last year. The seller is also looking for a possible trade.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

> It's my view that if I'm to pay $5000+ for a mandolin, that I'd like to play it first, ot at least have the right of refusal and return if it doesn't meet my expectations.


As it turn out, that was still a bit conservative: 5280 Euro in the end. I guess the Italian bidders were in a better position to reassure themselves of the seller's honest by communicating directly. Lovely instrument, still, and I'm sure the new owner will be pleased.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Yet another DeMeglio clone, this one branded Fidelio.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

And a(n early) bottom student type (A) in restoration mood by 
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-von-Luigi-Embergher-Roma_W0QQitemZ7369801056QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcm  dZViewItem


" target="_blank">Luigi Embergher.</a>

(Sorry the direct link doesn´t work; to go there try eBay Germany and search with: _ 
 #Mandoline von Luigi Embergher, Roma._).


Best, 

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is the link for the Embergher.

That one looks like it was refinished and repaired. It looks too light-colored on the bowl to me. Also, isn't that bridge located incorrectly?

I'll try to interpret to German and I am sure that some of that info is there.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Let me translate the German description, as it's quite interesting:



> 8-string mandolin by Luigi Embergher, Roma, sold in 1947 by the workshop of Emil Christian in Kassel. Condition: partially restored! Good!
> 
> Instrument not sealed because of restauration!! Would need to be treated with shellac or oil!
> 
> Soundboard restored: 4 cracks in total were repaired, at various times suggested by the differences in discoloration of the repairs. All in the lower region, from small to medium large. The black-and-white binding below right has lost some of its detaling in restoration and could be touched up! Pickguard has been touched up at the edge! A few minor surface imperfections, all on the soundboard, which could perhaps need some cosmetic treatment!
> 
> Back restored: 3 older small separations in the lower bowl were repaired some time ago with immaculate results.
> 
> The lining of the bowl, consisting of wood shavings, is partially in poor condition, and partially detached and would need to be partially reglued! Defects are in the vicinity of the soundhole! Easily accessible.
> ...


Pheww. That's quite some item description. It sounds as if someone (the seller?) has sanded the top. Alternatively, the seller may think the top should have a glossy finish when in fact what it has now is the original finish. Either way, this mandolin seems to have been interfered with by various repairers at various times with some doubt about their competence. Pity.

Too many exclamation marks in the item description for my taste -- as they say, three exclamation marks are the clear sign of a diseased mind.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks Martin for the translation. This one sounds like a vintage Embergher kit. I would imagine that the value would be at least 1/2 of one in original condition. 

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

The Embergher at eBay at the moment is made in 1906.

Best, Alex

----------


## Martin Jonas

There's now an addendum on the Embergher listing, saying that there are two labels inside: the original Embergher label, with "type ordinaire" written diagonally across, plus a second label from "Emil Christian, Master Violinmaker, Dealer in Musical Instruments, Kassel, 1947".

I've been looking at the wording and the photos again, and I now suspect that the "unsealed" part of the description does not refer to the soundboard, as I has assumed, but rather to the bowl and neck. There is no reflection at all from them in the photos, which looks a lot like stripped maple. Very peculiar -- I've never seen a bowlback where the varnish on the bowl was so poor that one would consider stripping it. The finish on the bowl is normally the part that survives just fine even in basket cases.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> I've never seen a bowlback where the varnish on the bowl was so poor that one would consider stripping it.


Looking at the view of the back, I see some sort of staining in the wood. Just conjecture, but i would not be surprised if the back suffered some water damage. After that I would just ascribe this to an over-eager luthier.

Jim

----------


## glauber

> Too many exclamation marks in the item description for my taste -- as they say, three exclamation marks are the clear sign of a diseased mind.


 I've read somewhere that you're allowed many more exclamations when writing in German than in English. They also Capitalize Words a Lot.

----------


## Bob A

How about a nice <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Schoene-Antike-Mandoline-aus-Italien-mit-Koffer-signiert_W0QQitemZ6583439730QQcategoryZ215
91QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Puglisi</a> with De Meglio-style vents, and maybe too much inlay? Still, an attractive instrument.

----------


## Bob A

And then there's <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLINE-mit-SCHILDKROTEN-KORPUS-saubere-ERHALTUNG_W0QQitemZ7370074690QQcategoryZ10179QQr
dZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">THIS</a> one - sort of a turtle-charango. Or something.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Looking at the view of the back, I see some sort of staining in the wood. Just conjecture, but i would not be surprised if the back suffered some water damage. After that I would just ascribe this to an over-eager luthier.


The seller sent me some larger pics and what look like stains were actual cracks on the back. 

Jim

----------


## jasona

oof

----------


## Bill Snyder

Forgive my ignorance of bowl backs and what might be desirable amongst the posters/lurkers but thought that someone might be interested in this old Vega.

----------


## Martin Jonas

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/STUNNING-ANTIQUE-ROSEWOOD-DE-MEGLIO-MANDOLIN-TO-RESTORE_W0QQitemZ7370243482QQcategoryZ1017
9QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">This</a> one is a bit strange: the label reads "Sistema de Meglio -- Arturo Farini". To my mind, this would suggest that this one is _not_ from the de Meglio workshop, but rather from a different shop who claimed (with or, more likely, without permission) to build de Meglio-like mandolins. The confusing part of this is that this particular mandolin looks nothing like a de Meglio.

Martin

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Martin, the seller cannot distinguish a mandolin from a violin. Look once again at the description.  

May be De Meglio violins look that way!

----------


## vkioulaphides

There is also an alleged Embergher listed on the BDZ; perhaps Alex can tell whether the seller is confusing the luthier's _address_ with his _last name_.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Yes Victor, the seller is indeed confusing Luigi´s family name with that of Luigi´s shop in Rome, but it is a genuine Embergher mandolin.

Best, Alex

----------


## Martin Jonas

Hmm -- seems to be gone now; or at least I can't find it on the BDZ homepage. The only interesting Italian instrument I see is a 1950 Calace (no details on model).

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Is this it? Perhaps the spelling is what throws one off??

Jim




> Mandoline Luigi Emberhger
> 
> In meinem Besitz befindet sich eine orginal Mandoline,
> von Luigi Belsiana Baujahr 1915 - Via Belsiana N 7.
> Sie befindet sich in einem sehr guten Zustand und ist
> spielbereit.
> Diese Mandoline stammt von meinem Uhr-Grossvater.
> Kammersaenger an der Deutschen Staatsoper Berlin,
> Gerhard Witting.
> ...

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Jipp.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Sorry, I appear to be looking at a completely different set of BDZ classifieds from the three of you. The site I'm looking at is this, which is the "for sale" section of the BDZ homepage. Where are you looking?

Martin

PS: Sorry, found it. What threw me is that he put it in the discussion forum rather than the classifieds.

----------


## Jim Garber

We are looking on the regular forum. 

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jim,

From the time I notiched that you had bought that wonderful Bruno mandolin my mind just kept coming back to it. So I just had to go through all I had on makers influenced by the Roman mandolin school. And here is what I found. I hope it is of use to you: 

*Carlo Colombo Bruno*  was born in Caltanissetta in 1872 and died in Turin in 1964.
He moved to Turin when he was very young (likely with his parents), and it was in this town that he started a workshop, selling and making musical instruments (also for commercial export!). 
After 1934 he dedicated himself exclusively to the art of musical instrument making, obtaining very good results as is shown by prizes and medals he won at musical instrument exhibitions in Turin, Paris and Marseilles. #

Besides a large output of bowed instruments, he also made guitars and mandolins. #Carlo Colombo Bruno stamped the essential parts of his instruments with his initials, while on the label often there is found a written addition: _it is prayed not to remove this label'_.

Once again, I think this Carlo Colombo Bruno you own is a very fine mandolin.


Best greetings,

Alex. 

PS. While typing this I am listening to all the Samuel Siegel cylinders. Just fantastic! Good listening quality also. And what a smooth tremolo and all over the fingerboard playing. Great that it possible for us to hear this and learn from it. Many thanks, Jim!

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks Alex for the detailed info. Now I must take this one and the other two Calaces to a good luthier for fine tuning to make them truly playable.

Jim

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## Eugene

Quite decidedly flat, but Cafe member Ralf Leenen has listed a very healthy looking <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/GELAS-Mandoloncello-Mandocello-Paris-1911_W0QQitemZ7372105785QQcategoryZ359QQrdZ1QQcmdZ  Vie
wItem" target="_blank">Gelas/Gaudet mandoloncello</a> on eBay.

----------


## Jim Garber

You beat me to it, Eugene. What is also nice its that Ralf posted a photo of the quintet that this mandoloncello was part of .




> This instrument also has a historical value: it was previously owned (and played) by Pierre Gamblin, who was the mandoloncello player of the "Plectrum Quintet" in Antwerp (Belgium). The leader of this quartet was the famous mandolin virtuoso Frans De Groodt, to whom Calace dedicated his 10th Prelude. Below you will find a picture of this quintet in 1925; Pierre Gamblin (holding this mandoloncello) is the first person from the left.




It is interesting that all the other mandolins seem to be Emberghers but the 'cello is made by Gelas. Why not an Embergher mandoloncello or liuto? 
Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Incidentally, Ralf is also the winner of the auction for the stripped 1906 Embergher from Ebay Germany. 650 Euro is more than I would have thought it is worth in that condition, but as Ralf clearly knows what he's doing, I'm probably wrong.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Oh, no: ostensibly another "restored" Vinaccia by our friends in Taiwan.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

How do we make them stop doing that?

Eric

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello,

For those interested in a Luigi Embergher 1918 orchestra model No.2, click here and scroll down 1/4 of the page. where you find "VENDO BANDOLIM"


Best, 

Alex

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## Martin Jonas

That's only £400 for that No. 2 Embergher.  Anybody feel confident to deal with Brazil?

Martin

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## Bob A

I'd consider it, but have no Portugese.

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## Jim Garber

I don't know if this Vinaccia was ever discussed. it is part of the Fiske Museum at Claremont.




> Mandoline by Joanies Vinaccia, Naples, 1763. One of the earliest known Neapolitan mandolines made by a member of a famous family of mandoline and violin makers.




Jim

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## etbarbaric

Hi Jim,

It was at least mentioned in a cursory fashion in a thread that described Neapolitan mandolin constrution. Robert Lundberg did some work on this instrument and the underside of its top is photographed and described in his article in the GAL journal. Specifically he describes the technique for cutting and canting the top.

Eric

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## jasona

Oh for crying out loud. Why didn't I know about this museum while I lived a short drive down the road from Claremont?

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## etbarbaric

Oh... and I wouldn't necessarily label that mandolin as "one of the earliest known". Its more of a mid-period example. I presume that is the museum's description?

Best,

Eric

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## Jim Garber

> Oh... and I wouldn't necessarily label that mandolin as "one of the earliest known". #Its more of a mid-period example. #I presume that is the museum's description?


Yes, the museum folks are also the ones who labelled this as one of "Joanie's".

Far be it for me to make a statement like that. 

Jim

----------


## etbarbaric

Ha! "Joanies"... that didn't even register on my feeble brain. ... And what sort of museum takes photos of its treasures on a couch?... in fuzzy B&W?

Incidently, I was just given a nice little bottle of Grappa (di vinaccia) by a friend who recently traveled to Italy. I would that she had brought me another kind of Vinaccia!

Eric

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## Jim Garber

Here is the Fiske Museum site. And a list of the plucked instruments in the collection.

BTW, Eric, that is no ordinary couch but Joanie's reupholstered one, the earliest historic Castro convertible known.

Jim

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## Eugene

I might be so bold as to speculate that the Vinaccia in question might be Joannes...but I don't know from no couches.

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## Jim Garber

That collection looks pretty eclectic with only a few museum-grade items. Aside for the Vinaccia, perhaps this: S47 Mandora, Presbler School, 1783. Fourteen strings.

This mandolinetto, I believe was interesting since it was owned by a prominent (at the time) black musician: ES64 Guitar-shaped mandolin, S.O. Allison, St. Louis, Missouri, ca. 1910.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Very nice and fancy Washburn on Ebay Germany. These are pretty rare on our side of the Atlantic.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

I believe that Washburn is a model 250.

Jim

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## Eugene

> That collection looks pretty eclectic with only a few museum-grade items. Aside for the Vinaccia, perhaps this: S47 Mandora, Presbler School, 1783. Fourteen strings.


I know of that 7-course Presbler and am pining to lay hands to it or good images (does anybody know if it's been photographed?). I'm certain it's quite like the one in the Met, Jim. Given its place of origin, I might be more likely to call it "mandola" rather than "mandora", in spite of modern conventions.

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## Jim Garber

Eugene:
I would contact the collection and see if they would send some photos. 

Jim

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## etbarbaric

Hi Martin, Jim,

Yes, that Washburn is basically identical to the Model 250 that I picked up for a song on EBay a month or two ago (with no competition). Incidently, mine is in what I'd call near mint condition... only two missing pearl buttons. The rest of the instrument looks like it came out of the box yesterday. The metal parts in particular are pristine.

Eugene, I share your curiosity for Presbler-like mandor/las. Road trip to CA? Worse things could happen than sit on the beach for a few days... :-)

Eric

ps - Incidently, I wonder if small letter differences in names are all that significant. Alex and I have been discussing a rather large number of 18-century instruments labeled as "Vinaccio"... Printers make mistakes... letters sound the same in different languages, names themselves get translated to different languages... sometimes for marketability. You say Mandola, I say Mandora... still others say mandorla... just to be safe :-) There is clearly a connection.

----------


## Eugene

> Eugene, I share your curiosity for Presbler-like mandor/las. Road trip to CA? #Worse things could happen than sit on the beach for a few days... :-)


Ahhh...

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting fluted back mandolin by Federico Gardelli on William Petit's site. Price is 1000 eur for thos interested.

I am not familiar with this maker. There was another one by Gardelli at Mandolin Brothers. Looks like they are nicely made and reasonably-priced.



Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/seltene-EMBERGHER-Mandoline-Nr-7-Mandolin-Gold-Ivory_W0QQitemZ7373468061QQcategoryZ10179QQ
ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">And again an Embergher...</a>

This time a Type A - Student Model made in 1926.


Best, 

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/seltene-EMBERGHER-Mandoline-Nr-7-Mandolin-Gold-Ivory_W0QQitemZ7373468061QQcategoryZ10179QQ
> 
> ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">And again an Embergher...</a>
> 
> This time a Type A - Student Model made in 1926.


Strange that the seller says this:



> This instrument is identical to the numbers 5 and 5-bis, it only differs because of the ornaments: the sound box is ornamented with a sculpture in bas-reliëf. An instrument with a beautiful appearance!


Huh? This exactly the same as the top of the line, exceptionally desirable Embergher, but less ornamented? Hah!

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

The seller says a lot of nonsense in the German text, including the assertion that all the frets are made of _solid gold_!! He also claims that at the first fret, there is a special inlaid strip fo ivory (otherwise known as the nut...). He also has the most entertaining line: "The little black wooden piece on which the strings end (vibrato) is present but detached. It can easily be glued back in place". I really don't think the seller knows the first thing about mandolins.

Martin

----------


## glauber

Maybe that's why he posts 


> A short summary for our foreign biters

----------


## Eugene

Not, "biters", glauber. It's "bitters" as in "Foreign bitters are welcome!" Our Embergher selling friend is evidently more a connoisseur of English beers than Roman mandolins.

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## Jim Garber

> From the time I notiched that you had bought that wonderful Bruno mandolin my mind just kept coming back to it.


Alex:
Perhaps you can add that maker and a few others to your wonderful Embergher site in the section of Roman style mandolins?

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jim,

Yes, that´s a good idea; I will certainly give it a thought. 
I have quite a large number of images of Roman mandolins build by makers outside Rome/Arpino (and not the least known, I must say) and it would indeed be good for a better understanding of the various mandolin types to include a chapter on those as well. 

Thanks again, and I´ll come back to you for more info on your Bruno.


Best,

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

The only info I have found on Bruno was in Henley Dictionary of Violin and Bow Makers and paraphrased what you had said earlier in this thread.

I welcome any further info.

Jim

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## onthefiddle

I'm sure you've found this yourself Jim, but I thought it would interest others:

A violin by Carlo Colombo Bruno.
Maestronet's auction price history for his violins (I'm sure your mandolin was very good value in comparison).
A rather expensive violin book (aren't they all?) with details of Carlo Colombo Bruno. Unfortunately I don't own that one, but perhaps you could get hold of it through an inter library loan or somesuch?
I too would be interested to learn more.

I recently won a low end Emanuele Egildo on eBay. It's a flatback, and requires work, but I have admired Egildo's work for some time and couldn't resist it! It appears to be very similar to the mandola that was sold by Sinier De Ridder.
All I know of him is (rather vaguely) that he was born in Rome in 1866, made mandolin, violin and guitar family instruments, appears to have spent most of his working life in France, and died in Rouen in 1955. If anyone can add anything to that I would be very interested.

Jon

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jon,

That is a very good buy! I consider Egildo as a very fine maker. I owe a cople of his bowlback mandolins myself and must say that they are excellently made. The sound is often so nice and ´Roman´ that if in our orchestra something needs to be done on an Embergher (like a fine-tuning or a new bridge) we use Egildo´s instead.

The flat back you bought is a starters (student) instrument that was made either as a bowlback or a flatback mandolin.

His mandolin assortiment somewhat reflects that of the Embergher catalogue line.


Best,

Alex

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## vkioulaphides

Two more Emberghers for sale on the BDZ... (see: Diskussionsforum, _not_ the Classifieds.)

----------


## Jim Garber

Egildo is considered by many to be a good maker. In fact, the first 1890s Lombard mandolino I bid on was an Egildo. Richard Walz mentions them in his article on Bowlbacks as one of the ones to look out for for good-sounbding instruments.

Amazing BTW how these Em,berghers are coming out of the woodwork (no pun intended). Some day, one for me...

Jim

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## Jim Garber

I don't think I have seen this super fancy double-topped Ceccherini before at Vintage Instruments of Philadelphia. Thye are asking $8000 for it BTW.

Ah, I just realized that they are selling these and a few other choice Italian bowlbacks for Music-treasures -- the guy in Florida who also sells the CD of his collection. I knew I saw that Ceccherini before.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Yeah, looks like Fred picked up a bunch of stuff from music-treasures. Too bad M-T was so difficult about selling off individual pieces early on, or we all might have picked up some interesting instruments.

8K for the Ceccherini sure makes me feel good about the similar one I got for a lot less, though.

For those who are interested in such things, it's worth noting that the rather plain double-topped Ceccherini I recently got off ebay is quite similar in tonality to the very fancy model; and it is definitely a distinctive sound, different from all the other bowlbacks I've played. I'm impressed with the repeatability of the Ceccherini shop, and with the unusual yet apparently effective suspended second soundboard. I'd have thought it would not have had a good effect on the sound of the instrument, but in fact they are quite pleasant-sounding mandolins, with volume to spare.

----------


## Bill Snyder

Once again I am posting and showing my ignorance of the old bowl backs but here is an old Midland for sale at Shopgoodwill.com

----------


## Jim Garber

It sure looks like a bowlback, Bill. I am not sure why you are showing any ignorance. 

That site is esp annoying since they have "watermarks" all over the pics to the point that you can;t tell what the photos are showing.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

> 8K for the Ceccherini sure makes me feel good about the similar one I got for a lot less, though.


Those prices do seem... well... optimistic...

----------


## guitharsis

Thanks, Bob, for the info regarding the tonality of the plain Ceccherini being similar to the very fancy one. #That was a question I was thinking of asking.

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## Bill Snyder

Jim, I refer to my ignorance of what makes of instruments most of the bowl back collectors would likely be interested in.

----------


## billkilpatrick

bill - thanks for the goodwill site.

i've tried - but to no avail - to resist buying another ... single ... only ... just one ... bowlback mandolin. #i sold the cheapy i bought earlier this year to a nice man over in le marche (he and his wife brought wine and cash and left with olive oil and a mandolin ... that's how it goes over here).

i was thinking of taking a train down to naples in the new year to look for a good - better than the cheapie, i hope - mandolin. #

any suggestions? #... some other city perhaps? 

bowlheadwannabe - bill

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## Martin Jonas

Bill,

You could, of course, pay a visit to the Calace shop. I don't know whether they have sufficient stock for walk-in customers, but their entry level bowlback (the one that Victor has) was 600 Euro a couple of years ago, and from what Victor says is well worth that money. Their address and contact details are at their web site.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

It's time for optimism without limitations again: I have absolutely no idea what made the seller of this Perretti think it might be worth a Buy-It-Now of £999, or indeed <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LOOK-An-old-bowl-back-Italian-12-adjuster-mandolin_W0QQitemZ7375216147QQcategoryZ10179QQrd

Z1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> anonymous (and fairly appalling) 12-string for £499. It almost makes his <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LOOK-G-Puglisi-Reale-Figli-Italian-mandolin_W0QQitemZ7375213030QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1  QQcmd

ZViewItem" target="_blank">Puglisi</a> at £499 seem cheap.

All of which is rather confusing, as the seller from his history has clearly sold lots of vintage instruments before, none with such outrageous asking prices.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

I think they are fishing for value: put it on eBay to see what the market will bear. They will relist it after it doesn't sell. Then again there may be some folks who offer them something but closer to what it is worth. The Peretti is probably not a bad mandolin but the condition it is in does not warrant such high asking price. 

I agree that the 12 string is ridiculous. Ebay is, if nothing else, entertaining.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Optimism enhanced by stupidity is one of the more irritating aspects of ebay, but if one maintains sufficient distance from the process I guess it's amusing as well. Still, seems to me that if you plan on pricing an item, you owe it to yourself and others to make an effort, however small, towards realism.

That being said, my fantasy life includes buying the occasional lottery ticket, so I'm really in no position to criticise (not that that has ever even slowed me down).

----------


## trebleclef528

I'm pretty sure the seller is "fishing", but to be honest although they have sold a lot of mandolins they don't really have much of a clue about them. I've asked several times if "neck's have been straight" and how to check that they are... and they have said yes the neck is straight.. sent an additional picture which shows that the neck is as straight as a standard Banana!
Merry Christmas to all
(ps J.G. Hope your wee parcel from Scotland arrives soon but post is slow because of the christmas mail)

----------


## Martin Jonas

> There is also an alleged Embergher listed on the BDZ; perhaps Alex can tell whether the seller is confusing the luthier's _address_ with his _last name_.


Well, two weeks down the line and I can now reveal that I managed to come to an agreement with this seller on the BDZ forum. The mandolin has just arrived at my parents' house in Germany; I will visit them this weekend and bring it back to the UK. 

It's a 1915 Embergher Tipo A student model, maple bowl, serial number N. 105 (do our resident Embergher experts know whether these serial numbers were consecutive for all models, i.e. was this only the 105th Embergher built in the 30-odd years up to 1915?). 

The seller tells me that it was previously owned by his great-grandfather, Gerhard Witting, who was a singer with the Deutsche Staatsoper in Berlin in the 1920s/30s (a web search shows that he can be heard on a number of old Wagner recordings from the Staatsoper that have been released on CD). So, it was owned by a professional musician, thus presumably the eye for quality, but not a professional mandolinist, thus presumably the choice of student model. 

No case, and from what my parents tell me the instrument is a bit dusty, but it does appear to be otherwise in pretty good condition as far as I can tell from the photos. My parents also tell me that there is a crack in the fingerboard extending from the soundhole to the 15th fret. Now that I know that, I can see it on the photos, too, but I don't know yet whether that's just in the ebony or extending into the soundboard or neck block below. They also think that there are two slight separations in the bowl; I can't see them in the photos, but no doubt it will become clear when I see it.

Here are a few of the photos sent to me by the seller; more to come once I have it in my hands.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

And the back.

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## Martin Jonas

And the action -- looks like a pretty straight neck.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Martin:
Congratulations on adding to your herd. Let's see: Vinaccia, Embergher, Ceccherini, Demeglio(?) ... wait are you missing a Calace? Is that next?

Jim

----------


## trebleclef528

A nice # <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/1880-90-Mandoline-6saitige-italien-mandolino-mandolin_W0QQitemZ7375796858QQcategoryZ10179Q
QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Lombardo</a>from marco on German Ebay.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Congrats Martinjonas,

It looks great and in all original condition. Perhaps it has been stored away in a dry place since it looks like the edges of the frets come out at the sides of the fingerboard. This could also have caused the fingerboard to split from the soundhole. I would just leave that for what it is. 

With Lenzner strings I am sure you´ll be surpriced by it´s sound. 


Enjoy  !

Alex

----------


## girldingo

I want to purchase Lenzner and/or Calace strings for my American Conservatory bowlback. #Does anyone know where I can get them? #I have been using Thomastik light strings and would like to try something else. Instrument has a lovely, warm, mellow sound.

----------


## Jim Garber

The source in the US for Dogal mandolin strings is:
Classic Bows, Inc., PO Box 81655, San Diego, CA 92138
Phone: 1-888-402-5277
email: classicbows@nethere.com
Talk to Greg Gohde who specializes in mandolins

http://www.dogalstrings.it/pages/mandolino.htm

http://www.dogalstrings.it/pages/mandolin_tab.htm

RW92B Soft Tension (dolce)
RW92 Regular Tension (medio)
==========
The source for Lenzner mandolin strinmgs in the US is:

Steve Miklas (steve@acousticmusicworks.com)
Acoustic Music Works, LLC
2142 Murray Avenue
Pittsburgh, PA 15217
412-422-0710

Acoustic Music Works

 You might have to contact Steve and find out if he has any left and/or whether he will order more.


Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/seltene-EMBERGHER-Mandoline-Nr-7-Mandolin-Gold-Ivory_W0QQitemZ7373468061QQcategoryZ10179QQ
> 
> ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">And again an Embergher...</a>
> 
> This time a Type A - Student Model made in 1926.


915 is the final price. Pretty respectable considering the amount of repair work needed.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

> It looks great and in all original condition. Perhaps it has been stored away in a dry place since it looks like the edges of the frets come out at the sides of the fingerboard. This could also have caused the fingerboard to split from the soundhole. I would just leave that for what it is. 
> 
> With Lenzner strings I am sure you´ll be surpriced by it´s sound.


Thanks, Alex!

I've just returned from a visit to my parents in Germany, where the Embergher had been sent by the seller. The instrument "in the flesh" lives up to those photos: it's in a wonderful condition. The soundboard is great spruce without any splits or repairs. The action is perfect: 1.7mm at the G string and 1.1mm at the E string. No distortion, no cracks (apart from the one on the fretboard that I knew about**: close inspection shows it's only in the fretboard itself and does not extend into the soundboard or neckblock, so I'll just leave it alone). Tuners in perfect condition and as responsive and finely-adjustable as a brand new set. The only thing that needs attention is some light shining through several glue joints in the bowl. They are stable (the ribs don't move under pressure), but I'd rather have them closed. I dropped the Embergher at Jon's on the way home from the airport, and he thinks repairing those joints will be straightforward and not an awful lot of work. So, it's with him for the time being. You're right, Alex, about the edges of the frets: they stick out a bit, as indeed they do on both of my Ceccherinis.

The fretboard is a bit of a mystery: if I understood Ralf's book (from looking at Jon's copy: I still haven't got around to ordering it) right, a 1915 Tipo A should not have the fretboard extension reaching entirely across the soundhole, but rather a partial extension with a suspended end. On this one, the extension is like on the later models, with the end resting on the far side of the soundhole. Also, there is _zero_ fretwear, even though there are some playing marks on the treble side of the bridge. The fretboard looks very much like Emberghers', so I wonder if the instrument may have been back to Embergher's shop for a new fretboard some time after 1915, maybe in the 1920s or 30s, and then wasn't much played thereafter.

While at my parents, I did string the Embergher up with Lenzners and played for a few hours. Even with strings that haven't settled yet, and not having been played for a few decades or so, the tone is wonderfully strong, nuanced and balanced. Once I have it back, I will have to get to know the instrument in order to get the most out of it: that will be fun! I see a trial run at making a Ranieri pick on the horizon.

Martin

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Sounds great Martin, congrats and keep us informed!

Alex.

----------


## Bill Snyder

It has some condition issues but is this  mandolin of interest to any of the bowlback aficionados here?

----------


## Jim Garber

> It has some condition issues but is this  mandolin of interest to any of the bowlback aficionados here?


Yeah, I have been watching that one... perhaps my one chance at this moment to get a Vinaccia, but it does have a serious chasmodic top crack with some top warpage. It will probably go for more than I want to pay for it, but we'll see.

The question, of course, is will the top have to be replaced altogether in which case, I would say it probably negates much of the value of having such a vintage mandolin.

Jim

----------


## Bill Snyder

Jim,
I know that you are a bowl back and vintage oval hole guy but have you looked at the Washburn on the Goodwill site and do you have any idea how old it is. I can not find any information on a Washburn 3SSB which makes me think they made a mistake on the model #.

----------


## Jim Garber

Bill,
That is a very recently made Washburn. If you look on their mandolin page you can see an A-model at the bottom witbh the model #M1S. I would imagine that that model would be similar with the SB meaning sunburst. Just a guess.

BTW I am not just a "bowl back and vintage oval hole guy" but I do play one on TV.

Jim

----------


## Bill Snyder

Jim the reason I thought that it might be an older instrument is the shape of the headstock. It is similar to some of the old Lyon and Healy mandolins.
I wish there was a way to post the pics from the Goodwill site, but being Macromedia Flash images I don't think there is.

----------


## Eugene

I haven't seen the instrument. Can you at least post a link? The new Washburn made some mandolins emulating the old tiered headstock and claiming some Lyon & Healy involvement, perhaps in the late 1980s (I don't quite recall), but I think the tie to Chicago was more hype than any real assembly. I've only seen a couple.

----------


## Jim Garber

Bill:
Yes it does have a different headstock and that one was copied from the older Washburns. You can see the other headtstock on this Washburn page.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Eugene:
 The Washburn is here tho I think you can see the headstock clearer on the Washburn link above.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Getting back to the bowlback...

I don;t recall if we discussed this rather ornate Demeglio (or Demeglio clone) at the 5th Fret in the UK.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

I would guess that one is a clone, not an actual De Meglio: it's a bit too crude for the real thing. It's sold, anyway. 5th Fret also have a very fancy scalloped Puglisi. Unfortunately, it's a 12 string, and they don't show the front (and its asking price is more than I paid for my Embergher). Strange that they refer to "Puglisi Cosentino" rather than "Puglisi Reale". A misinterpretation of the label, or a different maker?

Regarding the two shopgoodwill mandolins: I can't see how much warping there actually is on the top of the Vinaccia. That crack should be fixable, and as shopgoodwill is much less prominent than ebay, this may well go for a bargain price. Did you get more photos showing the actual condition of the top, Jim?

That oval-hole Washburn is almost certainly Asian-made, 1980s or later. Probably early 1980s, and made in Japan, as by the late 1980s, they used much longer serial numbers incorporating the year of building as the first two digits.

Martin

----------


## onthefiddle

I'm afraid that I'm in a huge (Christmas) rush at the moment, and haven't had time to do more than quickly scan the posts regarding the "Goodwill" Vinaccia, but just wanted to let Jim know that the soundboard can definitely be repaired. Of course your bidding should reflect the cost of that work, and repairing the distortion will be more time consuming and involved (i.e. costly) than the crack (which should close up neatly, if not perhaps quite completely invisibly).
Good luck Jim, and season's greetings to all!

Jon

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks for the good wishes. I almost think this would be close to a charity case to resurrect this one. It was probably hanging on a wall for years over a fireplace.

Here is one view of the "Grand Canyon" crack. The bridge looks wonderful and may be the best thing about this one -- then again, it may not be original. Obviously, the tailpiece is not.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is another view showing the warping of the top. I would hope that the top could be preserved rather thgan replaced.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Once again --and although I have already congratulated Martin privately-- I must also congratulate him in public on the acquisition of a fine instrument, indeed; partial as I am to humble looks and quality sound, I find his new Embergher absolutely DELICIOUS!

As for me, I expect to be going "in the other direction", so to speak: my 1897 de Meglio has been my "office mandolin",  i.e. the one I kept at the office, as a stop-gap measure to prevent me from going insane between countless, long (and aggravating) meetings. Now, with the office being gradually shut down, and all my possessions gradually migrating to my home, it is all but certain that I will almost never have time for this instrument. After all, 99% of my playing is on my modern Calace, not even the near-mint-condition Ceccherini.

So, I am thinking of parting with my de Meglio. I would hate, however, to throw it out into the waves of mindless, merciless eBay; after all, I am not pressed for money, nor do I need to get the _absolute_ highest bid in order to let go of this instrument. I just want to find it a good, loving home, where it will be played and enjoyed as I will not have the time to.

Perhaps, once we come back from vacation in January, I will post it on the Cafe's Classifieds as a 30-day, "Best Offer" item: no bidding, no auctioneering among friends. Simply, whoever has (confidentially to the others) made the best offer at the end of the 30 days, gets the instrument. So I think, at least...

----------


## billkilpatrick

just got back from siena ( a rare outing ) where i tried three bowlbacks. one was an old, italian made, flatback mandola with deep sides, in so-so condition and the other two were brand new from the czech republic. there may be quite a few "bowlbacks of note" where you are ... but i can't say the same for here. the heavily glossed dud i bought off italian ebay a while back sounded no better and was half the price.

purely in your interest, of course ... strictly as "scout" with a selfless devotion to duty ... i'll try to talk my wife into spending a weekend in naples, sometime after xmas and see what i can find.

----------


## Jim Garber

I have a feeling that there was a great outpouring of export mandolins to Germany and the UK in the early part of the last century. Still, you would think there would be something there.

I look fwd to your report from Napoli.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> Once again --and although I have already congratulated Martin privately-- I must also congratulate him in public on the acquisition of a fine instrument, indeed; partial as I am to humble looks and quality sound, I find his new Embergher absolutely DELICIOUS!


Thanks Victor. I am very pleased with the looks and sound. I also like the plain style of both my Embergher and Vinaccia, and in many ways prefer them over the fancier models (although I wouldn't kick a 5bis out of the house...). In fact, it's remarkable to what extent my two humble maple bowls share visual cues in respect of the purfling, the soundhole surround and the rosewood skirting on the maple bowl. They're not particularly similar in tone, though, and neither is the Ceccherini.

I'll make some family photos some time soon when I have the Embergher back.

Congratulations also to your leap into full-time muso-dom -- seeing your prodigious talent, I'm sure it'll be a fullfilling and rewarding career move!

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Well, for better or worse, I won that Fratelli Vinaccia. I withhold judgement on whether it was a good deal until I see what this thing entails as far as restoration. I have a feeling that it will be more extensive that what appears but, hopefully, worth it. 

I feel like I am running a home for orphan bowlbacks.

Jim

----------


## onthefiddle

Congratulations Jim!

There is nearly always a little more work than you expect, but for the price that you paid for your Vinaccia I don't think you have to worry so much about it. In this very thread we have remarked many times on very similar Vinaccias in much worse condition fetching much higher prices. Well done!
The soundboard looks like it can repaired very successfully, and you should still have a bit of a bargain after the cost of the repairs.

Jon

----------


## Jim Garber

I wish that I could get it to you, Jon, without serious expense of shipping. 

Jim

----------


## Vinaccia

Congratualtions Jim. I think once you have it repaired, you will have one very fine sounding mandolin. #My 1902 Vinaccia is a wonderful instrument. Perhaps 1902 was a good year for Vinaccia's, like a fine red wine produced from the great mandolin harvest of 1902. (South side of Vineyard)

----------


## Jim Garber

Jonathan:
Is yours similar in ornamentation? Is it a rosewood backed one? I recall your having posted a photo some time ago.

Jim

----------


## Vinaccia

My 1902 has a rosewood bowl. My bridge(bone insert) is different. The pick guard is the same shape as your 1902, but a different color. I have a 1898 (maple) currently in the shop which looks very much like your 1902. I think you will be very pleased. The tone of both instruments is very elegant and warm. It is my favorite instrument for intimate settings/gigs and for duets with a classical guitar. I used the Vinnacia regularly for wedding gigs as its tone is so stately and elegant, it is always a hit with the brides. If I can borrow a digital camera I will forward some photos.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Congratulations from me too, Jim. Let's hope the soundboard is manageable, and the neck joint is sound. If so, it should make a very nice instrument. My 1898 Giuseppe Vinaccia is very similar indeed, with virtually the same maple bowl with rosewood skirting, same scratchplate, same purfling at the edge of the soundboard, same neck, same headstock shape. Differences are the soundhole surround (I have purfling, rather than MOP inlays in mastic) and the tuners (I have open, not closed). Your tailpiece is of course non-original; a standard coverless bowlback tailpiece should do as replacement. Yours might have originally had the Vinaccia pegs (which may be the reason for the replacement in the first place). Mine does not, so maybe by 1898/1902 even Vinaccia had moved to metal tailpieces. My bridge is like a de Meglio/Ceccherini style, but with bone rather than brass insert (and Jon has made me a compensated insert rather than the original straight one, for better intonation). I can't make out exactly how yours looks.

Jon has just done the final setup on mine, after letting the joints settle down for a few months after restoration. After some minor adjustments in action and intonation, this is now a pleasure to play in an intimate setting. No great volume or projection, but just like Jonathan said: very warm and elegant. Indeed, despite its steel strings, it has a somewhat nylon-string like tonality like the older mixed-stringing Vinaccias. Probably now better suited to solo playing than my Ceccherini, although not so good for orchestral or larger ensemble playing, and without its soaring crystalline tremolo on the treble strings. I love it.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, all. I hope that it is restorable, at least for a reasonable price. We shall see. I should get it in early January.

And now for the Embergher... 

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> No great volume or projection, but just like Jonathan said: very warm and elegant.


I may need to retract that comment: I've just been playing gently in a corner and my wife specifically praised the projection of the Vinaccia from the next room. To me as the player it sounds quiet, but I think I need to record it to see how it sounds to the listener.

Martin

----------


## jasona

You go to the corner *to* play? I usually get sent there *for* playing...or rather, for my lack of chops...

----------


## onthefiddle

> I may need to retract that comment: I've just been playing gently in a corner and my wife specifically praised the projection of the Vinaccia from the next room. To me as the player it sounds quiet, but I think I need to record it to see how it sounds to the listener.
> 
> Martin


Exactly...this is the true test of projection, and the reason that you should ideally bring a friend with you when you go to try an instrument. In fact "loud" instruments do not _necessarily_ project well.
This doesn't diminish the quality of your Ceccherini of course - it just extends your available palette!  

Jon

----------


## Bill Snyder

Congratulations Jim, I bid on the Vinaccia but don't know enough about them to feel comfortable bidding much on them. Hope it fixes it up well for you.

----------


## Bob A

Belated congrats to both the new owners. I am a maple bowl fan, for no rational reason, so I'm doubly envious.

Regarding projection, I was privileged to hear the latter part of Jonathan's concert in Baltimore the other week, and I was truly amazed at his Vinaccia's ability to carry to all corners of a fair-sized church. (I suppose the instrument doesn't deserve ALL the credit, of course). My limited experience with Vinaccias wouldn't have led me to expect that kind of result.

I don't think a recording would be of too much help judging projection; I've read that it is exceedingly difficult to accurately record bowlbacks, and anyway, playing in a large hall would be the acid test.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Speaking of projection, I was astonished when I heard Alison play her baroque mixed-string Vinaccia in concert in Mold last year. She was playing solo, and appeared to strike the strings very softly with her quill, yet every note could be clearly heard throughout the 600-seat theatre (not even a custom-built music venue). A lot of this is in the player, too, of course.

My main intention in recording the Vinaccia is not so much for projection but to gauge more accurately the tone colour that others hear, as comments I had back from my wife, as well as from our ensemble, stressed how _bright_ the instrument sounded, when to me it sounds rather dark. It's all a bit puzzling.

I think what I'll do once I'm confident that they're all played in is to record one short piece three times, same plectrum, same strings, same recording setup, on Ceccherini, Embergher and Vinaccia, and put the mp3s somewhere for others to hear. I play a Branzoli etude that should be good for the purpose, as it covers all strings evenly and alternates tremolo passages with single stroke.

Martin

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## billkilpatrick

had some friends over to xmas dinner and happened to mention my proposed trip down to naples to look for bowlback mandolins.

"oh," my friends says "my grandmother had a mandolin ... do you want it?"

ah ...

----------


## Martin Jonas

Lovely, Bill! Hope that works out -- if it does, let us know what you're getting and whether it needs any work setting it up to play (which it probably does)!

With an Italian attic find, there should be a much larger chance of getting an honest instrument, rather than the tourist souvenirs from turn-of-the-century Naples that clutter Ebay UK.

Martin
(digesting Christmas excess)

----------


## billkilpatrick

my friend said her grandmother came from the lazio region, between rome and naples and died at a ripe old age in 1963 - which would make the mandolin quite old. if it's of any value, i'll pay her for it accordingly (if i can afford it) but - in a bit of a stupor myself with xmas excess - her offer certainly perked me up.

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## Jim Garber

One of those silly Calace Mando-Liras.

Looks like it is missing the wire armatures.

Jim

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## keef

Eugene, are you still interested in one of these?

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-REGAL-POTATO-BUG-MANDOLIN-IN-ORIGINAL-CASE-1894_W0QQitemZ7378808831QQcategoryZ10179QQr
dZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-REG....iewItem</a>

----------


## Jim Garber

This one is of Pac Rim manufacture imported and sold under the Surf City brand. 

You would think that they would do a more tasteful job of ornamenting. Then again, I see many similar mandolins coming out of those Taiwanese shops.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

I am, Keef. Thank you. I'll watch this one and may toss a bid at it.

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## Bob A

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/antico-mandolin-VINACCIA-1920-ottimo-stato_W0QQitemZ7379011560QQcategoryZ10179QQssPageN  ame
ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Vinaccia 1920?</a> on ebay.

----------


## Linda Binder

What is the deal on the mando-liras? #Do they sound different or is the design just for the visual effect?
I was nearly blinded by that Surf City "Christmas ornament". #The amount of pearl inlay is so extreme. #A little restraint would go a long way.
--Linda
PS -Eugene, I saw Mischa the other night at a Classical guitar concert and he said "Hi from Eugene!" so here is "Hi!" right back at you. #I'll have to try to get to one of his concerts with Stas. #They seem to be playing often. #I hope to see you in 2006!

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## Bob A

Never played or even seen a mandolira; I think Sparks says they were used mainly in Naples by the Calace circles. Apparent advantage is easy access up the neck. What they sound like is anybody's guess, but the fact that they seem to have no supporters anywhere leads me to believe that they were pretty musically negligable. However, they are visually rather amazing. So for a concert at the local home for the deaf they'd be the instrument of choice. 

This link may work?

----------


## Linda Binder

Thanks for the information Bob. #Great photos at that link. #The "arms" seem like they'd be so vulnerable to damage. #They always seem intact on the ones for sale though. #Maybe they're disposed of once an arm breaks off....no "Venus de Mandos" out there that I've seen.
--Linda

----------


## Eugene

I've handled them, but never brought one to pitch and played it. #I know Richard Walz has written pretty disparagingly of their functionality.

This pseudo-classical aesthetic was even worse in infiltrating the earliest 6-string guitars. #So much so that many early (ca. 1800) guitar works and methods were published for "guitar or lyre", the "lyre" in question not being a proper lyre at all, but a really cumbersome guitar.

----------


## Eugene

> PS -Eugene, I saw Mischa the other night at a Classical guitar concert and he said "Hi from Eugene!" so here is "Hi!" right back at you. #I'll have to try to get to one of his concerts with Stas. #They seem to be playing often. #I hope to see you in 2006!


...And I you!

Whenever you pass word of performing, I always forward it to my good friend in Rock Co. One day I'll convince her to attend with a suite of her chums.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Not actually a bowlback, but if the mandolyra is fair game, then so should be this Calace flatback. I hadn't realised the shop ever made flat mandolins, but maybe it was an austerity measure in the upheaval of WWII (if the 1944 date is correct, Naples saw the fighting first hand when the mandolin was built). By far the most plebeian instrument I've seen with the Calace name on it.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Martin:
Mandoliri (plural form?) are actually bowlbacks or sorts, at least the ones I have seen. (see below)

As to the flatback Calace. It does look like my model 24 from the front. I like those hexagonal tuner buttons.

Jim

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## Bob A

Way cool Calace flatback. Tuners et al definitely have that "wartime" look. Hope someone hereabouts gets it.

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## Linda Binder

The Calace flat back is very interesting. I haven't seen one like that either. Martin, your observation of the time-frame seems like a plausible reason for such a spare design. The hex tuner buttons are surprising too--industrial looking. As Bob stated-- maybe also a reflection of a wartime aesthetic. 
--Linda

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## Martin Jonas

I might well go for the flatback, if it stays reasonable, as it could conceivably do: after all, this is an as-basic-as-they-come post-Raffaele instrument, but it would round out my range nicely. I won't pay a big premium for the Calace name, though, so the Italian collectors may outdo me. Intriguing aesthetics, indeed. That fingerboard, for example, was presumably not made for this instrument: the rudimentary extension isn't actually over the soundhole...

Martin

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## mandolooter

The song - Boil em Cabbage
The mando - B & W Wolverine 
The player - Mandolooter's daughter Melody

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## mandolooter

Eugene the mandolin is one i acquired off Ebay last year after I traded my Vega bowl back for fiddle lessons for the young lady above. Here's some more pic's...perhaps YOU can enlighten me as I know nothing about it except it sounds nice and looks like it took someone a long time to build & inlay. #It has a bit of everything...rosewood, holly or maple, pearl, abalone, marquetry, tortoise, multiple bindings etc.. The top has some distortion but it plays real easy and my daughter loves the "Glam" look! They're both winners in my book!!!
Jeff

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## mandolooter

First the maker

----------


## mandolooter

front

----------


## mandolooter

side

----------


## mandolooter

bowl

----------


## mandolooter

another bowl view

----------


## mandolooter

the smile it brings...

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## mandolooter

The tuners are non original but very nice, a lot like the ones on my mandolute only the string posts themselves are fancy. #I paid a little more than I wanted too but it kept her interested in playing so its money well spent. A few days after she got it she's comes up to me and sez "Dad, I've decided to give the mandolute back to you since your the one who needs a lot of mandolins, I only need one" #I just cringed and went doh! #Well I guess we'll see...she was only 9 then...

What I need are some of those low tension super lightweight strings I've heard about...we keep it tuned down 2 steps as it is. Can anyone point me towards them and recommend the ones I need? 
Thanks, Jeff

----------


## onthefiddle

Hi Jeff, 

That's a very nice looking instrument, and certainly deserving of a good set of strings.  

I'm not in North America myself, so I'm going to quote Jim (twice!) on sources for suitable strings:




> The source in the US for Dogal mandolin strings is:
> Classic Bows, Inc., PO Box 81655, San Diego, CA 92138
> Phone: 1-888-402-5277
> email: classicbows@nethere.com
> Talk to Greg Gohde who specializes in mandolins
> 
> http://www.dogalstrings.it/pages/mandolino.htm
> 
> http://www.dogalstrings.it/pages/mandolin_tab.htm
> ...


and:




> Here is the deal for those in the US who want to order these. Steve at Acoustic Music Works will put together an order based on what foilks here want and at $15 per set + shipping for the Consort strings (´The Lenzner ''Consort'' strings für historische Qualitäts- Mandolinen´). Everyone should email him separately to commit to ordering. Hopefully he will become a dealer for these and perhaps the sole one in the US.
> 
> Steve Miklas
> steve@acousticmusicworks.com
> Acoustic Music Works, LLC
> guitars, banjos, mandolins & good company
> 2142 Murray Avenue
> Pittsburgh, PA 15217
> 412-422-0710
> www.acousticmusicworks.com


As to which ones to use?  I'll point you at the current thread: Lenzner or Calace strings.

Jon

P.S. It might be useful to have a stickied thread containing such useful bits of information as sources for strings, cases etc... Does anyone know how we would go about setting that up?

----------


## mandolooter

Jon...thanks...i knew i had seen something but the names had eluded me and a string search brought up hundreds of post to waddle thru. 
Jeff

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## Jim Garber

Very nice looking, higher end mandolin. Ornate, but tasteful IMHO.

The only thing at the find at the moment with a quick check is Wolverine is a brand name of Grinnell Brothers. Have to check further and get back to you later, unless, of course, Eugene has more info already.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is more info on the Grinnell Brothers:




> Grinnell Brothers Music House
> 27 South Saginaw Street
> Pontiac, MI 48342
> National Register Listed 04/19/1984
> 
> Built in 1923, the Pontiac store is an outstanding example of the use of the Gothic Revival influence on an early twentieth-century commercial building. The structure is a small, three-story building with a two-story, stone-trimmed storefront and a Gothic detailed stone facade above. It was Pontiac's home of Michigan's leading music store for over one-half a century. This fact establishes the building's local significance in music and commerce. Based upon designs by Leo John Heenan, the building adds a unique, Gothic Revival facade to Pontiac's architectural heritage. Brothers Clayton A. and Ira L. Grinnell began a music business in Ann Arbor in 1880. The company moved to Detroit in 1882 and began manufacturing pianos in 1901. They soon became one of Michigan's largest piano and general music dealers. Because of its strong local relationship to the Grinnell Company, the building retains sufficient integrity to convey its history during the time it served as a significant local business in Pontiac.


From this site.

Of course, this doesn't tell us who actually made this mandolin.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

I just posted a few pictures of my newly arrived 1902 Vinaccia on the Post a Picture thread.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> One of those silly Calace Mando-Liras.


Unbelievable: that mandolyra went for 2000 Pounds! That's three times as much as I paid for my Embergher! Five different bidders over 1000 Pounds, too, so clearly it's not just a single lunatic. Somewhere out there is a community of collectors of unplayable instruments.

Martin

----------


## Bob A

"Somewhere out there"? Indeed, bowlback lust has left me with several that are at present unplayable. (And I am not alone. Youall know who you are). Fortunately, I suspect that once repaired none of them will be as feckless an instrument as the mandolyra.

----------


## Bob A

May I say, mandolooter, that that's a truly fine looking mandolin. If it sounds/plays anywhere as good as it looks, you've done yourself (and your daughter) proud.

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## Jim Garber

This 1882 Pasquale Vinaccia is a real basket case and will require very extensive restoration. But, as they say in the biz, go find another one...

I am out of the running for this one. I am taking a small pile of my choice, near playable bowlbacks to my semi-local luthier for a look-see today. I hope I can afford the cost of the restorations.

It would be great if someone of this group wants to take this on, tho i have a feeling that it will be going over $500 or so plus at least $1000 in repairs.

Jim

Jim

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## mandolooter

Thanks Bob! #It sounds nice now but is still tuned down...the new strings are on their way tho so soon I'll get the real "test driving" done. #Needless to say I can hardly wait. As for the daughter...well now she's thinking my 06 Gibson is more her speed...LOL. #It is way easier to hold. She's really careful and knows how much I treasure them so she's allowed to play everything I have...unless her friends are over!

----------


## Jim Garber

> This 1882 Pasquale Vinaccia is a real basket case and will require very extensive restoration. But, as they say in the biz, go find another one...


Yikes... that one in seriously bad condition went for over $3000. I believe that this was of the shop and was dated after the death of P. Vinaccia. 

or is there something else I don;t know about this one?

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

The Calace flatback (after the death of Raffaele) went for £181, with a German high bidder just pipping me in the last minute. Oh well, it would have been a nice addition to my collection, but not something I would have broken the bank for.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

I can't recall, Martin -- do you have any Calaces?

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Nope. Probably a good reason not to go with such an untypical one -- I would never know whether its qualities (or otherwise) reflected the shop or just the specimen.

Martin

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## brunello97

> Originally Posted by  (jgarber @ Jan. 11 2006, 07:33)
> 
> This 1882 Pasquale Vinaccia is a real basket case and will require very extensive restoration. But, as they say in the biz, go find another one...
> 
> 
> Yikes... that one in seriously bad condition went for over $3000. I believe that this was of the shop and was dated after the death of P. Vinaccia. 
> 
> or is there something else I don;t know about this one?
> 
> Jim


I watched this escalate very rapidly at the end. The ebay description of the Vinaccia was so laconic that I wonder if the seller knew what was had or how much it might fetch.

----------


## Jim Garber

I am sure that seller hadn't a clue. Of course, he/she will be looking for more of these and will likely start some American Conservatory basic model at $2500 to make another killing.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

1914 Martin Style 2 with sideguard made for J.A. Handley. This similar to Eugene's without the scalloped ribs. 

BIN price seems reasonable if the thing needs little work. (I cannot BTW -- my money needs to go to restoring some of the better ones I have.)

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

One the other end of the rainbow -- for about $110 with shipping, a possible decent(?) <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Mandolin-with-Black-Bnding-and-White-Purfling-Sale_W0QQitemZ7370723431QQcategoryZ621QQ
ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Pacrim bowlback</a>. I wonder about the quality. From the photos it looks all right.

Jim

----------


## billkilpatrick

i don't know jim ... looks a bit like the clunker i bought here in italy. by clicking on the row of instruments at the bottom of the page you can see the others he (they?) have on auction. one of these bowlbacks is listed for 0.99c. and the one below that has a "buy now" tag on it for $75.00.

do you know how that works? there are loads of instruments up for auction from china at 0.99c. + postage and unless they're inflating the postage charges, i can't see how they're making a living like that.

----------


## billkilpatrick

i'm currently bidding on this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7382762729

... a refurbished, german bowlback mandola from a restorer in france named dave.

seems like a genuine guy - anybody know him?

----------


## Martin Jonas

Dave is here on the Cafe, same user name as on Ebay. #He's English, but living in France. #Nice guy; I've bought two mandolin bridges from him, which were both very well-made and very affordable indeed. #His homepage is here.

Martin

----------


## billkilpatrick

martin - thanks for both your notes. should i not win this current mandola he has on offer, i left a message on his site asking to keep me informed about future aquisitions.

thanks very much for your help.

ciao - bill

----------


## Jim Garber

> do you know how that works? there are loads of instruments up for auction from china at 0.99c. + postage and unless they're inflating the postage charges, i can't see how they're making a living like that.


Their postage charges are on the high side. I think they also figure on some bidders bidding up items to reasonable prices. That bowlback has a $35 shipping charge. Domestic shipping should be about $10-12.

I wasn't thinking of buying one, just trying to imagine the quality level. 

Jim

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## Bob A

Ya gotta love the Gibson tailpiece on the pacrim bowlback. Maybe they can figure out how to get a scroll on it too? Or ditch the oval and fit it out with a couple f-holes. (Where's Waldo?)

----------


## onthefiddle

> Dave is here on the Cafe, same user name as on Ebay. He's English, but living in France. Nice guy; I've bought two mandolin bridges from him, which were both very well-made and very affordable indeed. His homepage is here.
> 
> Martin


I wish he would learn ethical repair techniques though. Retouching rather than stripping and refinishing, proper crack repairs rather than ugly irreversible splints. 
The correct techniques are more difficult, but who ever said that lutherie should be easy? Years of training are necessary.
Judging from one of his bridges, that I saw on one of Martin's mandolins, I can say that they are very reasonably priced, and good for the money.

Jon

----------


## onthefiddle

I see that Dave has a mandolin by Atruro Farini on eBay. It is labelled "Sistema de Meglio" despite being more Vinaccia like in both style and setup. 
I'm glad to see that he has left the original finish untouched on this instrument - a definite improvement. Hopefully reversible hide glue was also used for the repairs he describes?
It looks like it could turn out to be a real bargain for someone looking for an inexpensive bowlback without any major issues. 
The auction is <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sistema-de-Meglio-mandolin-mandoline-mandolino-67_W0QQitemZ7382747950QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ
1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here</a>.

Jon

----------


## Eugene

That Farini "Sistema de Meglio" looks a whole lot like Stridente.

----------


## Bill Snyder

Any ideas what this might be?

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Bob,

Remember the Pecoraro No.6.? I nearly got it...

Shortly after the eBay-auction it survaced (again) at Carlo M.´s website. Lets hope the original parts will not be thrown away but be saved, and put in the mandolin´s case so that a future owner of this mandolin can still use them...


Best,

Alex.

----------


## Jim Garber

Speaking of Demeglio, this one just came on eBay.

Looks very clean and in good shape. Similar in ormamentation to mine with different headstock ornament.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> Any ideas what this might be?


Looks like an American Conservatory with some reptile dentistry luthiery done on the back, possibly plastic wood. Too bad because those can be nice mandolins. Prob not worth much more than the bid right now.

My very first mandolin was an AmCon.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

> Originally Posted by  (Curious @ Jan. 19 2006, 23:57)
> 
> Any ideas what this might be?
> 
> 
> Looks like an American Conservatory with some reptile dentistry luthiery done on the back, possibly plastic wood. Too bad because those can be nice mandolins. Prob not worth much more than the bid right now.


I'm thinking it might actually be an Osborn...but those pictures are terrible; it's hard to get much at all from them. In any event, I suspect it's not worth the cost of shipping in its state.

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## MandoJon

I came across this <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/19thC-BOWL-BACK-INLAID-MANDOLIN-STRIDENTE-NAPOLI-ITALY_W0QQitemZ7382486447QQcategoryZ10179
QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Stridente</a>

It looks as though it has been restrung left-handed (based on the one remaining string). As a newbie to bowlbacks, what's the consensus (allowing for new strings and possibly repositioning the bridge 'north' of the bend... maybe)?

----------


## Jim Garber

> I came across this <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/19thC-BOWL-BACK-INLAID-MANDOLIN-STRIDENTE-NAPOLI-ITALY_W0QQitemZ7382486447QQcategoryZ10179
> 
> QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Stridente</a>
> 
> It looks as though it has been restrung left-handed (based on the one remaining string). As a newbie to bowlbacks, what's the consensus (allowing for new strings and possibly repositioning the bridge 'north' of the bend... maybe)?


Possiby the seller just suck on any old string for show. I also think that the birdge may not be original and is probably too high.

It looks like it is in pretty good shape tho and if you can get it for a reasonable price, would be a nice player. Just be prepared to spend some additional money for set up.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> I'm thinking it might actually be an Osborn...


Pickguard looks L&H to me. All the Osborns (see attached) in my files have that lyre inlaid on a differently-shaped pickguard and none have that squared-off headstock.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

That Stridente looks OK, but I would aks some trenchant questions on action and neck joint. Stridentes are not at all rare on Ebay UK, and you can often find five or so Stridentes listed at the same time, so it's less a question of this one being the one you daren't let get away.

Martin

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## MandoJon

Thanks for the Stridente answers. I have got the impression that Stridente is a reasonable make if lacking the quality and kudos of an Embergher (say). Is this a fair assumption?

----------


## dave17120

HI there, haven't checked the cafe for a week or two, and I seem to have missed some discussions.
  QUOTE: "The correct techniques are more difficult, but who ever said that lutherie should be easy? Years of training are necessary." (18 JAN 06)

I agree with you entirely, lutherie is not easy, and I hope that I am learning all the time and improving the techniques I use. In the meantime, I am 'restoring' (term used advisedly) 'no hoper' ebay purchases, and being quite honest and open about what I do to them. I guess if I were an experienced professional luthier, no one would be able to afford the time I spend on these instruments. What I hope I am doing besides gaining a lot of experience, is recycling some old instruments at affordable prices.
 Onthefiddle........With regard to split repairs, I would be interested in 'proper crack repairs'. What I have managed to discover so far led me to assume splints using old topwood, was the correct approach. 
All the best, Dave

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## billkilpatrick

dave's ace - 'nuff said.

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## Jim Garber

> Thanks for the Stridente answers. #I have got the impression that Stridente is a reasonable make if lacking the quality and kudos of an Embergher (say). #Is this a fair assumption?


I think the Stridentes for the most part are a decent instrument. They are more the Neapolitan type than the Roman (Embergher) style so no comparison on those structural points (Roman = triangular neck profile, radiussed fretboard, narrow neck; different bowl profile).

Read Richard Walz's article on Round Back Mandolins.

Jim

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## Eugene

> Originally Posted by  (Eugene @ Jan. 20 2006, 08:21)
> 
> I'm thinking it might actually be an Osborn...
> 
> 
> Pickguard looks L&H to me. All the Osborns (see attached) in my files have that lyre inlaid on a differently-shaped pickguard and none have that squared-off headstock.


Actually, that's the pickguard I thought I was seeing in a cursory look over the ad. In any event, it still probably isn't worth the cost of shippig it to you.

----------


## onthefiddle

> I agree with you entirely, lutherie is not easy, and I hope that I am learning all the time and improving the techniques I use.


Good, lutherie is like playing in that no luthier should ever stop learning, no matter how good or experienced they are. 




> In the meantime, I am 'restoring' (term used advisedly) 'no hoper' ebay purchases


As a professional stringed instrument restorer the term restoration has a very specific meaning for me. Restoration is much more idealised than straightforward repairs and involves only the most ethical techniques, so for instance stripping and refinishing has no place in restoration, nor the use of any other irreversible materials or techniques.

Unfortunately I have to sadly write off many very nice old instruments as uneconomic to repair, because someone in the past has felt that at that time they weren't worthy of professional attention. They worked on the instruments themselves using materials and/or techniques that meant by the time I see them, when they would actually be considered valuable and highly desireable instruments, they have been rendered effectively worthless because the cost of undoing the previous work would be greater than the value of the instrument after the work has been done. This is the most common reason for good old instruments being rendered worthless.

Neapolitan mandolins are at particularly great risk of this currently since they are very much undervalued, though there are some signs of this changing. 




> Onthefiddle........With regard to split repairs, I would be interested in 'proper crack repairs'. What I have managed to discover so far led me to assume splints using old topwood, was the correct approach.


The splint method is really an old amateur approach, which is still perpetuated to some degree today by guitar repairers, as modern guitars are often constructed in such a way as to make other forms of crack repair impractical, or at least potentially extremely expensive. These conditions certainly don't apply to old Neapolitan mandolins.

Cracks are a very large subject, there are different types of crack and different approaches that can be used according to circumstances. If you want some initial advice regarding proper crack repairs please email me and I'll tell you what I can by email, but you really need to learn alongside an experienced luthier. I did mention the courses run by Bois de Lutherie to you before I think. I can also recommend an excellent book, "Violin Restoration A Manual For Violin Makers" by Hans Weisshaar and Margaret Shipman, this certainly contains more knowledge than I have time to convey through an email, nearly all of it applicable to mandolins in their various forms. This is the only book that I have encountered that details current professional instrument restoration techniques, there are many others I have seen which are probably responsible for the perpetuation of the more damaging irreversible techniques.

I do hope that I didn't cause you personal offense in speaking out. I (and most other professional luthiers) do regard it as an ethical duty to point out damaging and/or irreversible techniques when I see them used. If I didn't speak out how would knowledge of better approaches spread ?

As I said, do feel free to email me regarding better approaches to crack repairs.

Best wishes,

Jon

jonspringall@finelutherie.com

P.S. For one extremely effective method of crack repair please see this page on my website. The picture below is from that page, and is partially explanatory in itself as to the technique.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> P.S. For one extremely effective method of crack repair please see this page on my website. The picture below is from that page, and is partially explanatory in itself as to the technique.


I can vouch for the effectiveness of that particular repair, as this photo is of my mandolin: the crack in question was rather prominent and is now completely invisible. Even knowing where it was, you can't spot it anymore.

Martin

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## dave17120

Jon, thanks for the book reference, and the page link which I found particularly interesting. I have no objection to anyone making constructive criticism, and its nice to find someone who is willing to share a little of their depth of knowledge and experience. 

I only hope you won't regret the offer, as I shall be emailing you, particularly about crack repairs, but about several other areas where some input would be useful. You must feel free to tell me when enough is enough.

I will try and use the term 'refurbish' in future, as it is probably a better description of what I am doing at present, until I reach a level of knowledge where I could claim to be 'restoring'. (Some day maybe?!)

PS Liked the site, not looked there before, Dave

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## mandoisland

I have got an old German Herwiga mandola recently - as it is also a bowlback I post one picture and the link to my new foto-album of this instrument here. 

Foto-album Herwiga mandola

It is a nice instrument with a good sound, scal is 43 cm. The style is similar to the Embergher instruments of that period, I found a similar looking mandoliola from around 1930 in Ralf Leenens Embergher book. The foto-album contains also an image of an ad for the Herwiga Mandoloncello Nr. 4444 - but I have never heard of this instrument up to now. The ad was published in 1934 in the German magazine "Das Mandolinen-Orchester".
Enjoy the pictures!

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## Jim Garber

> I have got an old German Herwiga mandola recently - as it is also a bowlback I post one picture and the link to my new foto-album of this instrument here. 
> 
> Foto-album Herwiga mandola
> 
> It is a nice instrument with a good sound, scal is 43 cm. The style is similar to the Embergher instruments of that period, I found a similar looking mandoliola from around 1930 in Ralf Leenens Embergher book. The foto-album contains also an image of an ad for the Herwiga Mandoloncello Nr. 4444 - but I have never heard of this instrument up to now. The ad was published in 1934 in the German magazine "Das Mandolinen-Orchester".
> Enjoy the pictures!


Michael:
It looks from the photos that the neck is less sharply triangular than an actual Embergher andn possibly the fretboard is less radiussed than one. Is that so?

Jim

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## Jim Garber

I seriously considered this 1903 Embergher tipo A, especially since the seller was located a short distance from my house. In the pics it looked very good. However, when I took a look in person, I noticed that the top had a fairly moderate warp in it on the bass side of the soundhole prob due to the brace coming unglued on the bass side. I was told by a few folks that this is repairable but I decided to opt out.

Thanks, BTW for all the good advice from my friends here.

Looks like it was a war between some European folks who appreciate these things. BTW the seller told me she showed it to an American instrument dealer who told her it was a wallhanger. I hope it stays that way. I guess we will be seeing this sometime on William Petit's site.

It is fairly uncommon to find Emberghers over here, except for the ones brought over more recently.

Also, of note is another 1927 Tipo A without hardware sold by our own Ralf Leenan.

Jim

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## phriend2spin

I just came across a Vega that has been in a leather case for the past 80+ years. Looks great. Brazillian Rosewood back, solid spruce top! There is this paper that covers the inside of the bowl?? Never seen that before. Any idea what this is worth?

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## Eugene

Depends on condition (more functional than cosmetic) and style. It could be ca. $250 to comfortably over $1,000. Vega was very prolific with their entry-level instruments and most will come close to the lower end of that scale. That said, Vega mandolins were of consistent good quality, and I think their entry-level pieces in good condition constitute an excellent value. Can you provide more detail or post a picture?

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## Martin Jonas

The price that William Petit were willing to pay for that wallhanger Tipo A makes me feel pretty good about my 1915 Tipo A, which is in pristine condition and was cheaper (though not vastly so) than the winning Ebay bid here.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

I have a feeling that this <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1897-Mandolin-Unique-Shape-Italian-Made-NR_W0QQitemZ7385186039QQcategoryZ119027QQssPageNam
eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">1897 Calace mandolira</a> will go for stupid money. Supposedly signed by Nicola and Raffaele.

Hey Allen R. This one is in your neck of the woods.

Jim

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## Daymando

> I have a feeling that this <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1897-Mandolin-Unique-Shape-Italian-Made-NR_W0QQitemZ7385186039QQcategoryZ119027QQssPageNam
> 
> eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">1897 Calace mandolira</a> will go for stupid money. Supposedly signed by Nicola and Raffaele.
> 
> Hey Allen R. This one is in your neck of the woods.
> 
> Jim


In my backyard, indeed. Makes me wish I had some stupid money on hand.  (My new mandocello tapped my MAS fund for a while...)

-Allen.

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## Jim Garber

Allen:
 I was just figuring you could take a look if you had some extra time. As usual, I would assume that that one is in seriously bad shape -- worse than even the pics show.

Jim

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## Embergher

> I seriously considered this 1903 Embergher tipo A, especially since the seller was located a short distance from my house. In the pics it looked very good. However, when I took a look in person, I noticed that the top had a fairly moderate warp in it on the bass side of the soundhole prob due to the brace coming unglued on the bass side. I was told by a few folks that this is repairable but I decided to opt out.
> 
> Thanks, BTW for all the good advice from my friends here.
> 
> Looks like it was a war between some European folks who appreciate these things. BTW the seller told me she showed it to an American instrument dealer who told her it was a wallhanger. I hope it stays that way. I guess we will be seeing this sometime on William Petit's site.
> 
> It is fairly uncommon to find Emberghers over here, except for the ones brought over more recently.
> 
> Also, of note is another #1927 Tipo A without hardware sold by our own Ralf Leenan.
> ...


Just a small remark ... this 1903 Embergher mandolin is not a study Type A, but an orchestral model N° 1, which usually have a higher value than the types A ... it all depends on the condition of course ...

Best,

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## Jim Garber

Yes, of course, Ralf, you are correct. And it looks like your hardware-less Embergher went for a decent price.

On other fronts: I found a German maker who seems to make reasonably priced models: Henning Doderer. The basic model is 1100 and the next up is 1300. Has anyone played these mandolins?

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Split Embergher?



[no, not really]

Jim

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## Bob A

At first glance I thought you were splitting hares.

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## Jim Garber

This artist, Fernandez Arman seems to be drawn (no pun intended) to making sculptures by deconstructing musical instruments.

Hmmmm... maybe a use for my basket cases.

Jim

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## Daymando

> I have a feeling that this <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1897-Mandolin-Unique-Shape-Italian-Made-NR_W0QQitemZ7385186039QQcategoryZ119027QQssPageNam
> 
> 
> eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">1897 Calace mandolira</a> will go for stupid money.


I don't know whether or not I should be surprised that this finally sold for $1,076.00 -- much more than _I_ would have tossed at it, given the photos. (Of course, one doesn't see these around these parts very often, to my knowledge...but it was interesting to watch the bidding.)

As an aside, an audience member at our DMO gig this last Sunday at Books & Co in Dayton brought an extremely fine yet unlabeled (that I could see) bowlback specimen for sharing; it had a Martin-esque peghead, but I saw no ID stamp in the peghead. The individual was going to have a local shop look at it for suggestions on setup and strings (and I _highly recommended_ light to extremely lights in the new-string category), then have me take a play on it to gather an opinion. I hope to get a better look at it in some decent lighting then.

-Allen.

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## Jim Garber

> I don't know whether or not I should be surprised that this finally sold for $1,076.00 -- much more than _I_ would have tossed at it, given the photos. (Of course, one doesn't see these around these parts very often, to my knowledge...but it was interesting to watch the bidding.)


What did I say? Stupid money!

This thing will need serious restoration. Lots of large cracks and the two "arms" have the tips broken off. However, the buyer is the same guy who sellsthose Embergher posters so obviously knows his historic instruments. Also this one is labelled Nicola and Raffaele which, I believe, puts that also in a historical perspective of the Calace family. 

Allen, post some pics (on the post a picture thread) for us to see of this no-name when you have it in hand.

BTW the local 1903 Embergher that I passed on is now on the Petit site tho he just posted the seller's photos.

Jim

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## Eugene

I know I'm keen to see.

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## Daymando

Haven't seen anyone mention this <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-ITALIAN-BOWL-BACK-MANDOLIN-1800s_W0QQitemZ7385640520QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQc  mdZVi

ewItem" target="_blank">deMeglio bowlback</a> up for sale in the next &gt;30 minutes on eBay. $300 at the present. Located in New Canaan CT, with no bidders... so far.

-Allen.

----------------
Join Us for the DMO CONCERT ARTIST SERIES Inaugural Concert
Saturday, February 11, 2006 - University of Dayton, Dayton OH
MARILYNN MAIR & ADAM LARRABEE, mandolin/guitar duo
Workshops and Concert Information is available at the DMO website:
http://DaytonMandolin.net/CAS/Mair-Larrabee.html
~~ Don't Miss this Exclusive Ohio Performance! ~~

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## Jim Garber

Here's one that got away from me: 1929 Giovanni Kasermann. Too bad I just put my best price but it wasn't high enough.

It is amazing that all these Italian instruments are suddenly appearing in the US.

I am working tomorrow not too far from that Demeglio, so I may take a look.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

This one is a rather nice looking maple-bowled Gaetano Vinaccia mandola from 1913. #Seems to have been well looked after in good condition.

Also an interesting Herwiga. I'm intrigued by the shape, which is very reminiscent of the modern German bowlbacks, but seems much older.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

I wonder if that Vinaccia is truly a mandolin or really a mandola. I think this Gaetano might be the most desirable of Vinaccias, as to playbility.

That Herwiga looks like a larger instrument tho. Hard to tell from photos.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

The seller of the Vinaccia has answered some questions on the listing: the scale length is 41cm, total length is 74cm; he specifically confirmed that it is not a mandolin. #The mandola was his father's who used to play it in an orchestra until he had a Bräuer (never heard of it) custom-made 20 years ago and stopped playing it. #It's strung with TIs (boo..) that have been on it for the last 20 years. #The seller seems to be a player herself (Irene Kubinecz), with an interesting web site with nice sound and video files.

I'm now listening to an mp3 from that site of a piece called "Heavy Metal Pepi", played on mandolin and liuto cantabile!

As for the Herwiga, its total length is 76cm, i.e. longer than the Vinaccia, and considering the bridge position, it may well be a mandola, too.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

I've also just noticed that the Ensemble Con Moto site referred to above lists our own John Goodin as being one of the composers in their repertoire.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"Haven't seen anyone mention this deMeglio bowlback up for sale in the next &gt;30 minutes on eBay. $300 at the present. Located in New Canaan CT, with no bidders... so far."

Or, should anyone be in New York, s/he may wish to pay me a visit, as I will be eventually parting with _my_ deMeglio, on a best-offer basis.

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## billkilpatrick

i was just given a beautiful bowlback mandolin. i'm speechless. photos to follow.

the sticker inside reads: "a. galiano - fabbricante de mandolini e chitarre" ... nothing more.

searched the site for mention of this name but drew a blank - anyone familiar with it?

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## Jim Garber

Bill:
Congratulations! I know it is not a charango but it is probably a nice mandolin.

Gallianos were made in New York and there is a connection (at times) with Raffaele Ciani, who was the uncle of John D'Angelico, for what that is worth. I don't believe that all Gallianos were made by Ciani but the ones I have seen (I own one with a twisted neck) are quite nice. The label usually has Raphael Ciani printed under the Galliano name with a sort of mason's symbol between the two names (see below).

Jim

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## Jim Garber

This nice hole-in-the-head Calace -- model 24(?) -- has less than 2 hours to go at slightly over $400. 

I have one very playable and one almost-so Calaces so I am opting out. It would be nice for someone here who needs one to get this one. This one is missing the arm rest and has a few top cracks.

Yet another decent Italian bowlback that lately surfaced in the US.

Jim

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## billkilpatrick

no masonic insignia or ciani mention but nice it certainly is. my benefactress says her grandmother came from a town just north of naples and probably received it at around the turn of the century. "a. galiano - fabbricante de mandolini e chitarre" produced a few results on google - guitars from the 20's and 30's - but nothing specific about the mandolin. could sig. galiano have ceased making instruments in italy and immigrated to new york sometime before or after WWI?

there's some discoloration near the tail piece - more than likely made by the old woman resting her palm on the sound board. she died in 1964 and was the last person to play it ...

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## Jim Garber

Mugwumps has Galiano as an Oscar Schmidt brand name c1900-1940. The 2006 Vintage Guitar guide says that Galiano or A. Galiano were made by Antonio Cerrito and Raphael Ciani and others in New York. It also says that they used the brand on guitars built by them and others, including The Oscar Schmidt Company. 

Here is another label of a relatively fancy one (sans Ciani) that was sold by Elderly. 

I believe that there is some connection also to the Favilla Company also of New York.

These mandolins seem fairly common in the plain versions, so at some point they (or Schmidt Company) may have contracted out to other makers or factories. 

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Congratulations, Bill, and let's see some photos! Quite peculiar if it should turn out that the bowlback you got complete with a hundred years of Italian family pedigree should turn out to have been made in the US.

That Calace went for $1225, which I guess is quite a good price if it doesn't need too much work. The Herwiga mandola(?) finished at 633 Euro, which is a very good price considering it's less than pristine. Only one bidder so far on the Vinaccia mandola at 1500 Euro: I would think that one should finish higher.

Martin

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## onthefiddle

The Ga_g_liano (same/very similar pronunciation) family were a very important family of luthiers in Naples, known primarily for their violin family instruments. Mandolins were made under the name of Vincenzo Gagliano in the early twentieth century, but I'm pretty sure that this was in name alone as Vincenzo was: 1. A string maker 2. Dead (to put it bluntly).
Anyway - Jim's Galiano seems more likely, or an Italian maker of the same name. 
Congratulations Bill! I too would like to see some photos.

Jon

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## billkilpatrick

the name on the label reads as above - "a. galiano" not "a. gagliano" ( alessandro gagliano, i learned from the smithsonian site you provided, was a student of antonio stradivari ... now, wouldn't that be nice ... )

i'm waiting for my wife to bring the camera back from the office. pic's to follow.

still numb - bill

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,


For those who like Italian bowlbacks  .

With some glue and some good luck - you´ll probably end up with a nice playable and good sounding all original 1912 Calace mandolin. 

Click on this sentence to view it´s e-Bay Webpage.


Cheers, 

Alex

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## Jim Garber

Alex, 
Which model number is this Calace? The headstock is the same as my maple-bowled one.

Jim

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## Embergher

The more the value of quality mandolins increases, the more we find fake instruments on internet and elsewhere ... so I'd like to introduce this new abreviation ... 'AFAP' ('As Fake As Possible') which may become useful to some extend ...  #

Here is a first one to get the 'AFAP-label' ... a very nice 1927 Embergher mandolin #

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## Jim Garber

Ralf:
What tipped you off on this one? I have not seen enough to know the difference.

Jim

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## Embergher

> Ralf:
> What tipped you off on this one? I have not seen enough to know the difference.
> 
> Jim


Jim, 

I'd rather tell you what does look like an Embergher ... that's easier  :
The hot stamp on the back of the head seems to be a nice copy of the original (not so difficult to make). The label (for as far as it is visible on those pictures) looks like an original one (easy to copy). (N° 813 on a 1927 label is not quite right though). The tailpiece looks like the mass produced ones that are often found on original Embergher instruments of that period, but of course any one could buy them in those days, and you find them also on other mandolins... 
 ... that's about it for the things that look more or less original and could make you doubt ... the rest of the instrument, all parts and all other details (shape, colour, material, ...), are nowhere near an Embergher. Quite possible that the seller doesn't realise this is a fake. Pity the pictures are all taken from a certain angle, so you can't compare sizes and notice the obvious differences with a real Embergher ...

----------


## Martin Jonas

Hmm, the same seller also lists a 1923 Vinaccia, and I'm fairly sure I've seen that very instrument before (and indeed possibly those very photos, which look awfully familiar).

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> Hmm, the same seller also lists a 1923 Vinaccia, and I'm fairly sure I've seen that very instrument before (and indeed possibly those very photos, which look awfully familiar).
> 
> Martin


I have those same photos from an eBay listing of April of last year. Either this seller is reselling it or ...

Jim

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## Jim Garber

As for the Embergher... strange that someone would "copy" a lower end one. 

Jim

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## onthefiddle

I too have that same sense of deja-vu Martin - April would be about right for one that I recall we discussed. If I remember correctly we both had reservations about it.
Note that the seller has described it as a "Mandolin with label Vinaccia" not "A Vinaccia Mandolin" or "A Mandolin by Vinaccia".

I don't think that the "Embergher" was produced as a fake Jim, just as the many De Meglio copies were not intended to deceive. Of course lower end De Meglios are not currently valuable enough to tempt someone into relabelling a cheaper copy.

Jon

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## Jim Garber

> I don't think that the "Embergher" was produced as a fake Jim, just as the many De Meglio copies were not intended to deceive. Of course lower end De Meglios are not currently valuable enough to tempt someone into relabelling a cheaper copy.


So you think that someone manufactured the stamp and put an Embergher tailpiece and label on this one? I know it is certainly common for some violins to have labels clipped out of books, etc. but I would think this might have been done rather recently.

Jim

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## onthefiddle

Hi Jim,

The stamp was almost certainly added later, and tailpieces are easily changed - though as an Embergher style instrument it may in fact be original to this instrument. 
Despite often being described as a "brand" luthiers stamps are generally used fairly cold. A lighted match is held under the stamp before it is used, but this is actually to build up soot on the stamp, which will then be left in the impression - a match wouldn't heat a stamp sufficiently to brand wood. Applying a stamp later would therefore not necessarily damage the finish.

One worrying factor here is that while labels can be reproduced very quickly, cheaply and accurately with current technology, luthiers stamps are not cheap to have made. I very much doubt that this is a one off.

I have seen many relabelled violins - thankfully not so many mandolins. As Ralf says though - this will become more commonplace as values rise. 

Jon

P.S. As an illustration of the expense of having a suitable stamp made - my bridge stamp, shown below, cost about £50 ($85) to have made up, and is obviously a much simpler design than the Embergher workshop stamp.

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## billkilpatrick

thanks to dave17120, here are some photos of the "a.galiano" bowlback that was given to me the other day. if there's any information about the instrument - other than what's been posted - i'd love to hear it. many thanks:

----------


## billkilpatrick

another:

----------


## billkilpatrick

another:

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## billkilpatrick

another:

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## onthefiddle

Well that certainly looks like an American bowlback to me Bill.
I'll leave it to our more knowledgeable Stateside brethren to comment further though...
Congratulations!

Jon

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## billkilpatrick

another:

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## billkilpatrick

another:

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## billkilpatrick

last one:

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## Alex Timmerman

Congrats Bill, 

Looks like going to be a fine instrument !


Best,

Alex

----------


## Eugene

Very much American. #This is an odd one. #It doesn't look like what little I know of the Ciani shop output. #It also doesn't look remotely like the Galiano mandolins that I believe originated in the Oscar Schmidt shop. #It does carry some interesting similarities to Lyon & Healy product, but I'm not familiar with them ever labeling mandolins "Galiano." #It's hard to tell from the angles of the photos, but the bowl's profile looks L&H-like. #Certainly, the scratchplate and inlay are typical of L&H (but probably by an external supplier and available to a great many builders). #The headstock profile and the shape of the headstock/neck "joint" are like the early 20th Washburns by L&H.

----------


## Eugene

PS: as this doesn't appear to be "For sale, auction or otherwise" at the moment, the more appropriate place for it is probably in the "Post a picture of your bowlback" thread.

----------


## billkilpatrick

according to the u.s. postal service, no musical instrument can be exported to the italy from the u.s.. this was verified twice by two u.s. based ebay sellers. i imagine this regulation was instigated by the italians to protect instrument makers here from a flood of "cheap" american imports - probably made by italian immigrants to the u.s.. i don't know when the regulation was put in place or its number but perhaps i've got a sanctions buster!

i'm surprised that the consensus so far thinks it's american - everything i was told indicates it came from just north of naples. i'll send the photos to the italian on-line luthiers and see if they'll add more information. 

thanks for your comments - bill

----------


## Jim Garber

> according to the u.s. postal service, no musical instrument can be exported to the italy from the u.s.. this was verified twice by two u.s. based ebay sellers. i imagine this regulation was instigated by the italians to protect instrument makers here from a flood of "cheap" american imports - probably made by italian immigrants to the u.s.. i don't know when the regulation was put in place or its number but perhaps i've got a sanctions buster!


I agree with Eugene on all counts. It is very similar to L&H bowlbacks. 

Why would you think that it had to be *purchased* in Italy? It could have been bought in the US and then brought over here either way back when it was new or even much more recently as an antique.

Does Italy still have that law on the books? I can't imagine that thre are no Pacrim instruments in Italy. Or is that so?

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

To illustrate Eugene's points, here is a style 225 Washburn from their 1912 catalog. Not exactly the same as Bill's but you can see the resemblance.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Actually I found this Galliano (no Ciani on the label) which appeared on ebay about 1 year ago.

Perhaps there is a connection with L&H on this one.

Jim

----------


## onthefiddle

> I agree with Eugene on all counts. It is very similar to L&H bowlbacks.


I second that! My first thought was also Lyon and Healy, but not being as knowledgeable about the smaller US workshops I thought that I should leave the final analysis to those better qualified than myself.




> Does Italy still have that law on the books? I can't imagine that thre are no Pacrim instruments in Italy. Or is that so?


It surprises me, as imports are normally governed by EU agreements now, but I think each country probably still has a few odd exceptions. I have seen Chinese violins in Italy - I don't think any corner of the globe has escaped their influx.

The second example from Jim's archive very closely resembles your mandolin Bill. It looks like a very nice instrument. Personally I am very pleased with my own American bowlback - the quality is excellent. Have you played it yet, or is it in need of a setup?

Jon

----------


## billkilpatrick

that just about wraps it up ... there's a slight difference in the decorative inlay on the pick guard - identical inlay in the fingerboard, though - but its overall shape is the same. the tuning platform profile is identical but the tail piece is slightly more squared off (mine is more undulating) but i don't know to what degree little details like these matter.

i don't know any of the particulars concerning this anomaly between the u.s. and italian postal services. what i do know, however is that i tried to buy some ebony viola pegs for my oud from an ebay merchant in virginia and she told me the post-office had refused to process a similar transaction on an previous occasion.

i'm delighted to find another ex-pat american in the house but surprised as well. i would have it thought it more likely that "a.galiano" started making mandolins here in italy, immigrated and continued making them in the u.s.. i also would have thought that suppliers of musical instruments in lazio, at the beginning of the last century - the prov. where the grandmother of my benefactress came from, between rome and naples - would have had more than enough italian made mandolins to choose from. the novelty and appeal of being american, i suppose.

specifications in the lyon and healy catalogue jim posted mention "german silver" frets - does that mean nickel?

i'm waiting for a replacement bridge from dave and then i had planned on putting dogal (calace) medium, round wound, carbon steel strings on it. there's a small separation at the back which i need to think long and hard about before i attempt a repair.

thanks heaps guys! me and my newly found american buddy - resting on my lap at the moment - both wish all of you cordiale salute!

----------


## onthefiddle

> specifications in the lyon and healy catalogue jim posted mention "german silver" frets - does that mean nickel?


That's right. It's not a common term anymore, but it was used frequently - at least when refering to musical instruments. You still see it sometimes in descriptions of flutes.




> i'm waiting for a replacement bridge from dave and then i had planned on putting dogal (calace) medium, round wound, carbon steel strings on it. there's a small separation at the back which i need to think long and hard about before i attempt a repair.


My American bowlback is a Vega, and I'm not sure how it compares with your buddy, but it is lightly constructed and I prefer to use the light (dolce) sets of Dogal Calace strings.

Remember to only use hide glue on any open seams, ideally luthier's grade hide glue rather than carpenter's pearl glue. (I'm very carefully cleaning out a joint in a cello at the moment that has been twice abused - first filled with wood filler, and later had PVA (white glue) rubbed over the top.  )
If you're worried about gluing the seam yourself then I would take it to a local luthier - gluing an open seam is very rarely an expensive undertaking (unless it has been prevously maltreated - see my cello comment).

Have fun!  

Jon

----------


## Eugene

There probably was an A. Galiano somewhere at some time, but by the time this was made, it appears to have been a brand that was used by a number of different makers. Obviously Ciani in NY because that shop also tagged on its own name. Osace Schmidt in Jersey City was known to use the brand. It looks to me like L&H used it too.

I'll second Jon's opinion of strings. Look into Dogal's "dolce" gauge, set RW-92b.

----------


## Martin Jonas

I've posted some photos of my Embergher in the pictures thread here.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> Haven't seen anyone mention this <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-ITALIAN-BOWL-BACK-MANDOLIN-1800s_W0QQitemZ7385640520QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQc  mdZVi
> 
> 
> ewItem" target="_blank">deMeglio bowlback</a> up for sale in the next &gt;30 minutes on eBay. $300 at the present. Located in New Canaan CT, with no bidders... so far.


I took a look at this "Demeglio." If it had been a real Demeglio I would have bought it. However, it was labelled "systema Demeglio" -- isn't that the wrong spelling in Italian?

Asie form the label, it had none of the refinements of the DeMeglio I own. Even the side sound ports were cut sort of crudely and the top had some varnish on it and it was lacking the brass nut tho it did have the zero fret.

Anyway, something told me this was not a real demeglio and prob worth not much.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Speaking of copies, it seems that that 1927 "Embergher," which certainly would have fooled me, has fooled a few other folks, including William Petit. The bidding is up to $1725 with an hour or so to go.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

This Vinaccia came on eBay Australia recently. One bidder offered 700 euros already. 

It looks very similar to mine but with a rosewood bowl. I will not be pursuing it. We will see how it goes..

Jim

----------


## Arto

Here´s a nice mandolino by <a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/ANTICO-MANDOLIN-MANDOLINE-MANDOLINO-ROCCA-ENRICO-1897_W0QQitemZ7389289815QQcategoryZ359QQr
dZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Enrico Rocca</a> at eBay Italy. Bidding closed, but worth seeing, I think.

greetings, Arto

----------


## Eugene

> Here´s a nice mandolino by <a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/ANTICO-MANDOLIN-MANDOLINE-MANDOLINO-ROCCA-ENRICO-1897_W0QQitemZ7389289815QQcategoryZ359QQr
> 
> dZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Enrico Rocca</a> at eBay Italy. Bidding closed, but worth seeing, I think.


Yummy. That's my new favorite mandolino Lombardo (based upon superficial appearance alone).

----------


## Martin Jonas

Looks like we have a new bowlback convert: Cafe member Fliss (who lives round the corner from me) has just won the auction for this 1902 Giovanni de Meglio. #I'll give her a hand with setup, so I expect to see it in the flesh soon. #It's a great price for what looks a reasonable condition. #Interesting that it's called a "Model B": the other plainer models are usually labelled "Model 1A", which would suggest that this one is slightly higher in the range. #It doesn't look any different, though. #Incidentally, did we ever get to the bottom of whether there are any differences in quality between the various workshops run by members of the de Meglio family (as opposed to the clones using the "sistema de Meglio" description)? #It seems to me that around 1900, the de Meglio family had a similar splintering into individual workshops as the Vinaccias did a few years earlier.

Clearly, a new bridge is needed. #Otherwise, we'll have to see. #The crack near the tailpiece may or may not need attention and the condition of frets and neck joint will become apparent when it arrives. #The missing pieces of binding are cosmetic. #Not as pristine as Jim's, but I don't think at this price she can grumble.

Martin
(link repaired)

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## Jim Garber

Martin,
The link didn't quite work -- I am not sure why. this one does (I hope).

That looks like a good deal but a mandolin that will need a fair amount of work to make playable. Nice to have another Demeglio afficionado on board.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I'm not so sure it'll need all that much work. That crack does at least look like it might be stable, and if it is, the only thing needing urgent attention is the bridge. Otherwise, it's mostly a question of wear and tear (or _character_ if you prefer). But, as I said, all will be evident on arrival...

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

Sometimes it's useful to do a search in the archives. On the question of de Meglios and their clones, Alex posted this in April 2004:




> For the sake of convenience this particular mandolin model is referred to as the ´De Meglio model´; but that is only because most these kind of mandolins bear the Giovanni De Meglio label or that of his son Michele De Meglio. Both worked in Neapels (via Roma). It is not really known which maker came up first with this mandolin model. 
> The labels of the De Meglios show a working period of 25 years; from ±1890 up to around 1915. But it must be said that during that period a great many De Meglio mandolins were made, sold ànd distributed all over Europe. 
> 
> It is also known fact that at the time - when business went well - one atelier gave work to many employees, fellow workers and apprentices. All of them having their own task to do and all working under one name: that of the owner or founder of the business (a situation similar to that of the Vinaccia atelier). 
> We can assume that the De Meglio atelier was such a successful business and that because of the popularity of ´their´ Neapolitan mandolin model some of the De Meglio luthiers and apprentices soon started their own shop probably working under their own name. 
> 
> This is likely the reason why we there are mandolins that are very, very similar to the De Meglio ones. Not only the one you own - made by Domenico Ventarola - is such an example. Also those build by another fine Neapolitan luthier named Luigi Dorigo are excellent De Meglio look-alikes. The protection sleeve gard beneeth the bridge is original and similar to the floral decoration design as seen inlayed in the scratchplate. Dorigo´s mandolins were favoured especially in Paris. A good 24 frets example of Dorigo´s mandolin making in the ´De Meglio model´ manner, can be seen right now at e-Bay Italy where it just came up for sale.


Martin

----------


## billkilpatrick

dear collective wisdom - 

while putting new strings on my gorgeous sounding bowl back, one of the white plastic (?) turners gave way and started to spin loosely on its spindle. 

in the builders repair section i found one item on repairing stripped - for the want of a better word - tuner buttons and learned a new set of words: shim stock.

if i understand this properly, what i have to do is fold a thin strip of shim stock over the shaft of the tuner, dab super glue in the appropriate places and push the white button gently back onto the spindle.

"shim stock" will not translate into english, let alone italian so i'm going to snip off a bit from an aluminium foil lasagne tray.

... ok?

----------


## Fliss

I'm not so sure you can call me a bowlback convert, I've always quite liked the idea of owning one  But (whisper it quietly, so that the De Meglio doesn't hear) ... my flat top still has my heart!

I do like the way the De Meglio is pretty without being over-done in terms of ornamentation.

I've found the info on this thread really useful in helping me identify all the features it has, and also in giving information about all kinds of bowlbacks, so thanks guys. Jim, I noticed yours has a tailpiece cover which mine doesn't. Is that an original feature that they all would have had? It certainly looks as if it belongs there.

Mine is rough round the edges, and I will definitely get that crack looked at. But the tone isn't at all bad, the action is great, the neck is straight (I think!) and the bowl is sound though superficially scuffed. I don't mind the superficial scratches, as they are part of its character, but I'd probably try and get things like the missing pieces of binding and veneer fixed, and definitely get a new, more appropriate, bridge. 

I'll take some pictures and post some hopefully later this evening!

Fliss

----------


## Fliss

My De Meglio settles into its new home

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## Fliss

A bit dark, but hopefully you'll be able to see that there's a bowlback there somewhere...

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## Fliss

Observant De Meglio afficionados will realise there's something not quite right about this picture... my nut and my zero fret are the wrong way round!

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## Fliss

The question is, how straight is that neck?

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## Fliss

And finally... okay, so the other two aren't bowlbacks! #Left to right, my original mandolin (probably 1950s German-built), my 2005 Garrison, and my (new!) 1902 De Meglio

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## Linda Binder

Congratulations Fliss, from a fellow bowlbackian. #I don't have the expertise in bowlback construction, history or identification as some of the fabulous members of this board, so I'm useless for answering most questions about bowlbacks, but I play one! #Mine was made in 2004 so I'm not sure I'm officially in the "Order of the Bowl", I think I may only be an adjunct member until I own a vintage one. #Enjoy your new family member!
--Linda

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## Jim Garber

Linda:
You do not have to have vintage one to be a member. In fact, as far as I am concerned, you don't even have to own a bowlback -- just like them.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Fliss -- all de Meglios would originally have had the tailpiece cover/sleeve protector that Jim has. Indeed, most Italian bowlbacks of any type would have had some sort of sleeve protector. However, as these are separate pieces that are held on only by the string tension, there is a strong tendency for them to get lost over the decades. Now it's quite rare to find them still in place -- I would guess only about 10% of the bowlbacks one sees on Ebay still have them. The de Meglio tailpiece covers look nice and are actually relatively sophisticated in that they have a metal plate with tortoiseshell overlay. There's an anchor from the metal that clips between two of the tailpiece string posts, so that there is some connection to the tailpiece. The older and more common type of sleeve protector was just a piece of decorated tortoiseshell with no metal and no anchor, the edge of which is wedged underneath the outside strings. These are very awkward and to my eye don't look nice either.

My own de Meglio-clone (the Rinaldi) does still have the cover, and it's nice how the inlay matches the vine on the scratchplate.

Martin

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## Fliss

Linda - Thanks! Personally I like new mandolins, I think a new bowlback is a cool thing to have.

Jim - does that mean I didn't have to buy one??? 

Martin - thanks for the info on taipliece covers / sleeve protectors (apologies if I used the wrong terminology!)  Yes, I can well understand that that's an item that would easily become separated from the mando. I agree it's very nice to see the vine pattern repeated on the sleeve protector.

Fliss

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## Jim Garber

Fliss:
I am sure that you can have a sleeve guard made pretty easily. Martin can trace the pattern or I can.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello,

Here another De Meglio that comes up for auction. With sone nice close-ups. <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/ANTICO-MANDOLIN-MANDOLINO-NAPOLETANO-DE-MEGLIO-1909_W0QQitemZ7391286707QQcategoryZ359QQrdZ
1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">View here:</a>


Best,

Alex

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## Jim Garber

> Here another De Meglio that comes up for auction. With sone nice close-ups. <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/ANTICO-MANDOLIN-MANDOLINO-NAPOLETANO-DE-MEGLIO-1909_W0QQitemZ7391286707QQcategoryZ359QQrdZ
> 
> 1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">View here:</a>


Yes, that one needs some work but is similar to mine. The other thing to bear in mind is that it is in Uruguay, not Miami. I had emailed the seller to find out why the shipping cost was so high and he told me that. Evidetnally very common for Uruguayan sellers to have a rep in Miami to accept payment. 

It is also interesting to me that there must have been a relatively large Italian population in Uruguay for there to be quite a few Italian mandolins.

Jim

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## Eugene

Beautiful, and congrats, Fliss. #Why not give us more detail in the appropriate "Post a picture" thread?

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## Fliss

Jim - thanks for the offer to trace the pattern. I'm going to have to give attention to things like the crack before I can look at making my mando look prettier, but I would like to do that at some stage. I'm taking the De Meglio to visit Martin tomorrow, so I'll have a better idea of what my plan of action 

Just taken a look at that Uraguayan De Meglio, and it looks as if it needs less work than mine, but that looks like a high starting bid.

Eugene - thanks for the nice comments. Yes, there's a "post a picture of your bowlback" thread, isn't there, so I'll take some better pics and post them there before too long. 

Fliss

----------


## brunello97

If only some of this relentless bidding for brand-named bowlbacks would trickle down to the rank and file (or maybe not):

Here's a busted up Vinaccia going like mad:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....IT&rd=1

I was in the bidding for awhile. Geronimo. I've never played a bowl-back of this price or assumed quality (well maybe once in a Luthier's shop in Firenze-but I wasn't sure what I was getting into.) I know I can get a nice Gibson A for this money and I know the tone and quality to expect. I've got a Martin bowlback the sound of which knocks me out. 

How might those in the know, compare these famous-shop Italian mandolins to some higher-end US bowlbacks in terms of sound, playability, craftsmanship etc. Good, better, best, might not be the language comparison of use. (Think language used to compare Piemonte or Tuscan wine to Napa wine etc....)

I'm going back to Italy this summer a wiser traveler, mandolisto and purchaser; and any help would be appreciated.

Mick Kennedy

----------


## billkilpatrick

mick -

there's a festival in assisi in which luthiers and antique dealers specializing in musical instruments participate but i've never attended and i'm not even sure when it is - i'll find out, for both our sakes.

another venue is the antiques market they hold in arrezzo on the 1st saturday of every month. i've been there once and saw a few mandolins. it needs to be said that i also saw an incredible amount of junk ... sort of a "vivente ebay."

here are two sites here in italy:

http://www.marincola.com/vendita/vendita.html

http://www.calace.it/

... finally, i happened to be in verona a few years back and visited two really lovely, old-timey music shops. #MAS was not upon me at that time so i was not tempted to buy, but i saw quite a few - what i now know to be - very attractive mandolins with low asking prices. #i would think that every city of any size would have something to see.

buon viaggio! - bill

----------


## Eugene

What model Martin do you play, Mick?

Federico (to whose site you've linked, bill) is a somewhat famous lutenist. I have three of his excellent solo CDs. I am particularly fond of the Capirola. The Morlaye CD is particularly fun in including a fair amount of early four-course guitar music.

----------


## brunello97

Bill,

Thanks for the info. I've been to the market in Arezzo, it is pretty sprawling and lots of great stuff, lots of drek of course. I usually try to go whenever I'm in the area, at least to check out the Pieros at San Francesco.

I'll try to find out more on the Assisi fair you spoke of. It sounds great. Assisi is the only place in Italy where I LIKE to be a tourist. It seems appropriate there.

Eugene,

I think it is an 0 (or maybe an 00?) I don't really know if I can tell the difference. I've attached a photo. Maybe you can help identify. All it has is the little Martin stamp on the back of the headstock.

[IMG]http://img9.imagevenue.com/loc239....MG]

I can only imagine how good some of the better quality ones sound.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here's a busted up Vinaccia going like mad:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....IT&rd=1


Over $1200 for a lower-end Fratelli Vinaccia that will need a fair amount of work. Mine was about 1/7 of that price. 

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> I think it is an 0 (or maybe an 00?) I don't really know if I can tell the difference. I've attached a photo. Maybe you can help identify. All it has is the little Martin stamp on the back of the headstock.


0: 18 rosewood ribs
00: 9 rosewood ribs
000: 9 mahogany ribs

Yours has an unusual pickguard for a Martin (I think), but Eugene knows these better than I do.

Jim

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## brunello97

Jim,

Thanks for the breakdown. That would make it a 00 then. There is a serial number 2086 inside on the end of the neck.

I wonder if that Australian bloke had an idea what type of windfall he was due for. Maybe my grandkids will reap a little profit off this Martin....

Mick

----------


## Eugene

That makes yours a 1907 and the first year of production for style 00, Mick. I don't know how long that style of scratchplate persisted, but I don't think it was long. Thanks for sharing it.

----------


## Jim Garber

I have resurrected the Post a Picture of Your Old Mandolin Accessories thread from yesteryear.

I have additional catalog pages I will scan, but these will do for the moment.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Such is the dominance of F-style mandolins these days that it's both surprising and nice to find something else offered as the generic picture of a mandolin. If you go to www.buy-scores.com (an online sheet music/accessories dealer) and click on "mandolin", you'll find that their mandolin listings are headed by the picture below. It's a very small picture, but quite clearly a rather nice Ceccherini -- which I have to say is (despite my constant advocacy of their qualities) still a distinctly obscure maker.

Just a trivial observation, but it brought a smile ot my face.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

This Loveri looks rather nice. #A while ago I bought a much plainer Loveri for one of our ensemble members, and that one has a really lovely tone, nice woods and nice workmanship. #This one is fancier and might well be even better. #Note the "exhaust" vents at the back, the same as on the other one I've handled! #

Martin
PS: Link fixed. No idea why I suddenly have problems with pasting Ebay links.

----------


## Jim Garber

That does look Loverily 

I could not get your link to work, Martin but was able to connect with this one using the item number.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Carlo M. has a pile of what he terms "cheap bowl mandolins" (250-350 euros) for sale in the classified (ad#17635). You can view them here. They look like Sicilian products, possibly.

Jim

----------


## charliede

I saw Carlo's ad. #You must buy a minimum of 5 mandolins. #Has anyone ever done buisness with him? #I notice his web site has a disturbing lack of information.

----------


## Jim Garber

I have heard from one guy who sends all his instruments to him for restoration. The instruments he makes look pretty nice but I have yet to know of anyone who has played one.

I also found this cryptic msg on his site:



> NEW project:
> 
> I am studing one new mandolin, with only 2 chains under the top.
> 
> But the chains will be not simple chains, but will be special chains with a different form . I have studied it considering the strengths thst the trings have on the top..........
> 
> keep in toucht!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Does he mean braces?

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

I think he probably does. I wonder whether he is referring to shaped braces, similar to the ones in my Vinaccia (see the photo below, taken from Jon's site). Clearly, Giuseppe intended the distinctive shape of the bars to affect tone by adding weight to the treble site.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> i was just given a beautiful bowlback mandolin. i'm speechless. photos to follow.
> 
> the sticker inside reads: "a. galiano - fabbricante de mandolini e chitarre" ... nothing more.


This unidentified/unlabelled bowlback bears quite a strong resemblance to your Galiano.

Need any parts?

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Another Roman style builder: Sariosa

And yet another DeMeglio similar to Fliss's, labelled 1901 style B.

Jim

----------


## billkilpatrick

[quote=jgarber,Feb. 22 2006, 21:46] ... Need any parts?


identical to mine ... "parts" being the operative word. #

what comes from choosing the road less taken, perhaps?

----------


## Bill Snyder

Anybody know anything about <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/VERY-RARE-VINTAGE-ANTIQUE-1886-RAYMOND-MANDOLIN_W0QQitemZ7391644603QQcategoryZ10179QQssPa  g
eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Raymond mandolins?</a>

----------


## Jim Garber

> Anybody know anything about <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/VERY-RARE-VINTAGE-ANTIQUE-1886-RAYMOND-MANDOLIN_W0QQitemZ7391644603QQcategoryZ10179QQssPa  g
> 
> 
> eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Raymond mandolins?</a>


According to the Mugwumps site, this was a brandname of the Wurlitzer Company.

BTW the tailpiece is dated 1886. I doubt that the mandolin is from that time. Prob 1910 or so.

For some reason -- this may just be a gut reaction -- it bears resemblance in my fuzzy mind to some mandolins by Luigi Ricca of NY. I need to check my files but it is possible that this particular one was made for Wurlitzer by Ricca's company which was thought to have about 200 employees at one time.

I got to get off to work but will check later on my theory.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

1960 Calace

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

"Signed by the Master himself", no less. Quite a feat 23 years after his death. I seem to remember that late-60s/early-70s Calaces got a bad reputation, but I don't know how a 1960 would work out.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

The very first Calace I ever played was a 1970's (I think) owned by Barry Mitterhoff. it was actually the first bowlback that impressed me with sound and playability and started on the search. 

Jim

----------


## Daymando

Here's one I don't recognize, though perhaps The Annointed In Our Midst  know more: Manby's mandolin, in Bendigo, Victoria AUS

And a couple of others spotted along the path:

This one's a live-auction Martin, serial #1402 located at Philadelphia PA

Here's a Skratch Endehnt model in Virginia.

-Allen.

----------


## Eugene

Are you shopping, Allen?

Manby's didn't do much for me.

The Martin appears to have been correctly identified and dated by the seller, but I wish he/she had said something of playability and condition. #It obviously isn't strung to pitch, and I'd hope the bridge position is a simple mistake. #If it is healthy, their estimated value range would be a real bargain.

The last one looks like it might have once been a decent working-class instrument, but I wouldn't want to put the effort into salvaging it.

----------


## Daymando

> Are you shopping, Allen?


I had been at the time, but rather than for a bowlback, for a ca. 1911 "The Dayton" mandola built by my (disconnected) predecessor, Charles Rauch. Unfortunately, the sharks had a more pleasant lunch than I in the last few seconds of the auction. # 

-Allen.

----------


## Jim Garber

I was watching that Dayton mandola also, from the sidelines. It is interesting that it ended up in Germany. Those mandolas have to be pretty rare, tho inhave seen a few mandolins but never in person. 

Have you actually played any Dayton instruments, Allen?

Jim

----------


## Daymando

> Have you actually played any Dayton instruments, Allen?


Yes; a local buddy of mine, Phil Case, owns a couple of Dayton mandolins, and he and I have been researching Charles Rauch (though independently; it wasn't until last year that we discovered our mutual researching interests -- he from the instrument builder perspective, and I from the orchestra director perspective). He brought his Daytons to a DMO rehearsal last spring and I had the opportunity to spend some time exploring them. They have a very nice, well-rounded tone: they certainly fill the bill in everything from chamber blending to soloist punch.

This is the first I've seen of a Dayton *mandola* being available anywhere. I've no doubt they're more scarce than the mandolins, which are scarce enough. Charles sold these in the 1910s for $80 new, though I don't know the quantity of instruments he made (yet), nor the classification system he used (#301; several options come to mind, but no data available to help clarify). That 1912 $80 equates to around $1500 in 2006 (which was my bidding ceiling), according to one online inflation calculator.

Looks like I get to keep my _just-received-Friday_ tax refund for a little bit longer after all. Darn those last 2 seconds... _it was in my high-bid hands at 3 seconds to go!_... and the snipers struck faster with $6 than I with $7.  

Well, kudos to 'em...that's how the game's played. I hope they take good care of that swell 'dola.

-Allen.

----------


## Daymando

Here's a DeMegio-esque mandolin which Ian has up for the taking, as well as two Italians, and two different (*) Portuguese semi-rounds.

(* - neat back design on the first of the Portuguese pair)

-Allen.

----------


## Jim Garber

This German bowlback is nothing special, but check out the tuners. Are they gearless?

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

The bidding for this Demeglio 1A in Australia is climbing rather high witha few hours to go. The condition looks pretty good, however, I have a feeling that the shinyness in the photo contributes to the high bidding. Or the "crocodile" case. 

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Ah, yes, the "crocodile case"... It's not a 1A, incidentally, it's a Model B, exactly the same as Fliss', except that hers has a darker finish on the top (which I suspect may have been added later). Looks in decent condition, but not exceptional. Bridge is probably original, but needs some work. Can't quite see a reason why this one is getting so much higher bids than the ones on Ebay UK, other than that they may well be rarer in Australia. But then the top bidder is from the UK, which is just crazy.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Oops! Must have been the other Demeglio that is a 1A. Frankly I am not sure what the difference is between 1A and B.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

This strange ornate mandolino is back... again.

Jim

----------


## onthefiddle

> This strange ornate mandolino is back... again.
> 
> Jim


Coincidentally this instrument came to my mind not long ago, as I was sorting through my record collection (I still have quite a lot of records!) 

The image below is a scan from the cover of "Vivaldi Lute & Mandolin Concerti" (the performers are detailed on the cover, and shown below, so I'll save myself some typing   , my copy was pressed by Turnabout Records, catalogue number TV34153S). 

The similarities between the two instruments are fairly obvious (except perhaps for what I _assume_ is also a reflex peghead on the instrument below). The bridges, and the way in which they are strung, are different - but this could be accounted for by one of the bridges having been altered or replaced. 

Of course none of this means that either instrument is an authentic representative of a type, or a later concoction.

Jon

----------


## etbarbaric

Thanks for that Jon. Each time this instrument has come up, its seemed familiar to me (more so each time eh? :-)). It is exactly this old album cover (which I have packed away somewhere) that was generating that deja vu feeling. The sharp peg-head angle would seem to be very similar indeed.

In any case... its still a strange thing.

Eric

----------


## PaulD

So that "300 year old" mandolino has been around before, eh? I just stumbled across it and was going to post the auction, but thought I'd look around first. Nobody's going to jump on it? I bet if you offered him $11,999 he'd take it! 

Does anybody know anything about it? Pretty funky!

Paul Doubek

----------


## Jim Garber

Quite a few Italian vintage bowlbacks at reasonable Buy It Now prices from eBay seller <a href="http://search.stores.ebay.com/magginisupplies_mandolin_W0QQfciZQ2d1QQfclZ3QQfsnZ  magginisuppliesQQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQftsZ2QQ
saselZ79589390QQsofpZ0" target="_blank">magginisupplies</a> in Gloucestershire.

Notable: 

Vinaccia-like Ricordi and another Demeglio-like Gartini Lugini for £125 each

... and quite a few others. Photos leave something to be desired so you takes your chances.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

The instrument on the old LP is catalogued as an 18th-c. soprano lute by the Castello Sforzesco in Milan (at least as cited by Paganelli, 1966). I'm not sure what to make of it, but (now that you've mentioned it) it certainly is similar to that funky eBay regular.

----------


## onthefiddle

Thanks Eugene! I was hoping that someone would be able to put a name to the instrument on the LP cover.  The area between a soparano lute and a mandolino has to be a very grey one!

Jon

----------


## Martin Jonas

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1894-Giovanni-De-Meglio-Neopolitan-Bowlback-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ7393467767QQcategoryZ10179QQ
rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here</a> is yet another de Meglio, this one showing what happens when people try to refinish these instruments. "Careful restoration", indeed. I wonder whether the peculiar angle of the headstock is evidence of some more reptile dentistry or just an optical illusion. It seems to be tilted in an unexpected direction.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

*argh*  

Maybe it would look its best, as played beneath the Tower of Pisa... As for its _sound_, well... that's a whole other business.

*argh*

----------


## Jim Garber

> I wonder whether the peculiar angle of the headstock is evidence of some more reptile dentistry or just an optical illusion. It seems to be tilted in an unexpected direction.


I looked at that photo for some time and I think that it is just photographed at an angle. I think the seller is just referring to a warped fretboard.

Too bad this was messed with. It looks like a nice early one with the older label.

BTW, can someone translate this part?


> MANICO DRITTO, TRAFORO ARMONICO
> PRESSIONE ALLE CORDE E SCUDO UN SOL PREZZO


Does that have to do with the patented sistema De Meglio?

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE] MANICO DRITTO, TRAFORO ARMONICO
PRESSIONE ALLE CORDE E SCUDO UN SOL PREZZO

"Does that have to do with the patented sistema De Meglio?"

Yes, I suppose. The neck is (purported to be) straight; by _traforo armonico_ (quite a vague phrase, by the way), they may mean the manner in which the sound-vibrations are transmitted across the soundboard; the "pressure on the strings" refers (presumably) to the little, screw-on bar between bridge and tailpiece; finally, the shield is claimed to be made of one piece (of tortoiseshell).

All that is commonly associated with the De Meglio "system".

Hope this helps... Some of the stuff written about instruments is in "marketing-speak" and tranlsates poorly, if at all comprehensibly. #

----------


## vkioulaphides

It just dawned on me: the cryptic "traforo armonico", traslated (by Yours Truly), loosely, to "acoustical duct" an utterly ridiculous phrase, of course could very well mean those funky, dash-dot-dash clasp vents that all de Meglios sport. Bingo!

----------


## Jim Garber

Thank you Victor. That makes sense. It is good to get a window on what these makers were intending.

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

Well, *here* is mine, _pressione alle corde, scudo un sol pezzo_ and all... #

----------


## vkioulaphides

... and the back, just as pretty in its simplicity:

----------


## dave17120

Hi, a BIG WORD OF WARNING with reference to.....

"Quite a few Italian vintage bowlbacks at reasonable Buy It Now prices from eBay seller magginisupplies in Gloucestershire."

Myself and Lorenzo Lippi (Italian luthier of the Embergher posters fame) both recently bought mandolins from M'''''''''S!!!!!!! in an auction. I had paid for 2, when I received an email to say that they were not available. As did Lorenzo and at least one other buyer. Money was fortunately refunded. The mandolins in question then appeared in their shop, at something like 6 times the price I'd bought for in auction. Maybe buying from their shop would be ok, but I wouldn't ever bid on their stuff in auction again. Check their feedback, two of their Negatives are mine.

Cautious Dave.

----------


## dave17120

Its me again....... anyone any thoughts on this? <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mandoline-von-Raffaele-Calace-von-1944_W0QQitemZ7395269731QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcm  dZView
Item" target="_blank">Calace???</a>

All the best, Dave

----------


## Bob A

Can't make the link work, me.

----------


## trebleclef528

dave is possibly talking about a 1944 flat back on German ebay. 
ebay.de item number 7395269731. I can't get the link to work either
Ian

----------


## Alex Timmerman

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-von-Raffaele-Calace-von-1944_W0QQitemZ7395269731QQcategoryZ10179QQssPageNa  meZWDV
WQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">perhaps now... click here</a>  

Best, 

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

Try this: Calace flatback.

Looks from the front like my style 24 with a flatback. 

Actually, this is the exact same one sold in January. This guy is just reselling is. He bought it here. Much better photos and you can see the damage.

I do like those hexagonal tuner buttons.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

I was bidding on this one in January, but was just outbid. Looks like the winner didn't like it after all. I might try again, but maybe keep it lower now.

Peculiar for the seller to say (in the German description) that she doesn't know anything about mandolins: why did she outbid me then in January if she didn't know what she was buying?

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> Peculiar for the seller to say (in the German description) that she doesn't know anything about mandolins: why did she outbid me then in January if she didn't know what she was buying?


That is a typical eBay self-protection ploy. Even if you do, say you don't. Then when the bidder complains, you are covered.

...or she reads this thread and knows that you have superior knowledge, Martin, so it must be worth it.

Jim

----------


## Daymando

Has anyone commented on this 1920s mandolin listed in Nova Scotia? I noticed it this morning when looking for something else.

-Allen.

----------


## Daymando

Here's a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Lazzaro-Vico-S-Gennaro-Humpback-Mandolin-1880-Inlayed_W0QQitemZ7393863114QQcategoryZ359QQr
dZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Lazzaro Vico S. Gennaro Humpback Mandolin circa 1880</a> which will need a bit of TLC.

-Allen.

----------


## onthefiddle

> Here's a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Lazzaro-Vico-S-Gennaro-Humpback-Mandolin-1880-Inlayed_W0QQitemZ7393863114QQcategoryZ359QQr
> 
> dZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Lazzaro Vico S. Gennaro Humpback Mandolin circa 1880</a> which will need a bit of TLC.
> 
> -Allen.


I think that I prefer "Taterbug" to "Humpback"!  
Perhaps it's a warning against bad posture when playing.

Good luck with the Calace (again!) Martin. 

Jon

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here's a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Lazzaro-Vico-S-Gennaro-Humpback-Mandolin-1880-Inlayed_W0QQitemZ7393863114QQcategoryZ359QQr
> 
> 
> dZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Lazzaro Vico S. Gennaro Humpback Mandolin circa 1880</a> which will need a bit of TLC.
> 
> -Allen.


TLC for sure. I was looking at that one for parts possibly. Never heard of that maker, but there seem to be hundreds of Neapolitan makers.




> Has anyone commented on this 1920s mandolin listed in Nova Scotia? I noticed it this morning when looking for something else.


Nothing too special, as far as I can tell. Just a lower end American bowlback. 

Jim

----------


## Arto

About the post someway above... did Calace firm really produce flat back mandolins, too?

 Arto

----------


## Fliss

Jon's post above reminded me, I should have said this too - good luck with the Calace, Martin! 

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

> good luck with the Calace, Martin!


Same here... that will mark the completion of at least one each of the big three for Martin. Then what??

We are rooting for you!

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

> About the post someway above... did Calace firm really produce flat back mandolins, too?


This one is the only one I've ever seen. When it last came up in January, I suggested that the reason for this model may well be the year of production: 1944 was in the middle of the war, and the front actually moved across Naples that year. Wartime austerity was probably very much the order of the day.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Another 1960s Calace.

Speaking of Calace, I came across this page about Neapolitan mandolins with this picture of a Brescian style(?) mandolin identified as a Calace: 


Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Talking about flatback derivations of bowlback designs, here is a flatback de Meglio clone. It even has the side holes.

Somewhat off-topic, but I couldn't help being intrigued by <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEOTECH-SUPER-PADDED-MANDOLIN-STRAP-A-OR-F-STYLE-gnms_W0QQitemZ7395030840QQcategoryZ7266QQ
rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> listing for a generic mandolin strap. Considering that it will fit any mandolin, what a wild and wonderful choice of instrument to illustrate it with for the photo.

And while I'm off-topic: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-antique-Wappen-mandolin-and-mando-ukulele_W0QQitemZ7395575770QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ
1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> listing by one of the regular German sellers is for two unusual mandolins: the Wappenform mandolin has more than a passing similarity in shape to a Vega cylinderback.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Speaking mildly off-topic of those semi-flat bowlbacks, I will reprise what I camm my no-name boatback mandolin. Likely American of the Chicago school.

I have seen another similar Italian version made by Mozzani that is quite lovely. Sort of a way to get around the multiple bending of the ribs.

Jim

----------


## billkilpatrick

anyone familiar with a mandolin maker or mark called "Modelo Noluoca?"

----------


## Jim Garber

> anyone familiar with a mandolin maker or mark called "Modelo Noluoca?"


Have you seen one with that label, Bill?

I did find some reference to one here:




> Elle date des années 1920 des ateliers Jérome Thibouville du luthier Noluoca elle est tout a fait jouable, en bon état et vendu avec sa boite d'origine. 2 autres photos dispo sur demande
> 
> Je me trouve a Champigny mais je peux eventuelement me deplasser sur Paris si interessé.


I guess (from my rudimentary French) that Noluoca was associated with the JTK atelier.

Jim

----------


## onthefiddle

Jerome Thibouville Lamy (JTL) did (and still do) sell instruments from other workshops under their own name. I'm pretty sure that I've seen instruments from Neapolitan makers with JTL labels, though the details escape me now.
That said, the rear view of this instrument reminds me a lot of a (transitional?) French mandolin that I have. We discussed it at some length in the Post A Picture Of Your Bowlback thread.

Jon

----------


## Jim Garber

I wonder about this strange mandolin labelled Antonio Calace being offered by our friend Dan'l. A 12-string, no less. Doesn't look to me like the std Calace output.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Another maker I am not aware of: Gennaro Lingetti. It looks like a nice one tho it might have some neck issues: height above the 12th fret is 5mm.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

I suppose the 1869 Calace might possibly be legitimate. At least the date falls within Antonio's span (d.1873). The date on the label looks printed, though, and I'd think that the more usual thing would be for the last digit to be hand-inked. The string attachments on the t-piece seem to be of an early period. Peghead is a far cry from the leter Calace production, but I'm not at all familiar with pre-Raffaele mandolins. (Not that familiar with later ones, either, but that seldom stops me from posting an opinion. You all know the definition, of course).

----------


## Jim Garber

The only non-Raffaele era Calaces I could find pics of were on this Japanese page (translated by Google). The 1896 Nicola has a slotted peghead somewhat similar to the Dan'l's Antonio.

I always wish that that page had larger photos.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

The Calace flatback is now considerably higher than the winning bid in January, so I'm out of it. Anybody else who wants to go for is welcome.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> The Calace flatback is now considerably higher than the winning bid in January, so I'm out of it. Anybody else who wants to go for is welcome.


Too flat for me 

Martin, maybe you should buy it and then immediately put it on eBay again and make a few £s on it. It seems to go up in value with each round.

Just a thought. 
Jim

----------


## onthefiddle

> The only non-Raffaele era Calaces I could find pics of were on this Japanese page (translated by Google). The 1896 Nicola has a slotted peghead somewhat similar to the Dan'l's Antonio.


The slotted headtock on the Calace labelled mandriola is more Roman in style really, it is stylistically similar to the slotted pegheads on many Embergher orchestral instruments, for example. Of course that doesn't make it a Roman instrument rather than Neapolitan - such heads are commonly found on Roman, Neapolitan, Sicilian and German instruments.
I also don't really feel qualified to comment on pre-Raffaele era Calaces.




> I always wish that that page had larger photos.


That would make it a really useful resource.

Jon

----------


## billkilpatrick

> Originally Posted by  (billkilpatrick @ Mar. 07 2006, 20:13)
> 
> anyone familiar with a mandolin maker or mark called "Modelo Noluoca?"
> 
> 
> Have you seen one with that label, Bill?
> 
> I did find some reference to one here:
> 
> ...


no - i'm asking for someone on the classical guitar list who has an old guitar with this label inside. no other information on the label, by the way but he mentioned he had heard the name in relation to mandolins.

i passed on the site you kindly posted ... tres gentile. 

- bill

----------


## Jim Garber

A non-eBay one: nice looking, great condition German bowlback from Randy Osborne's site. I am not so sure about his dating it 1900. It looks a lot more recent than that. 

Also, funny that a relatively high end instrument does not have an extended fretboard.

Ian? any thoughts?

Jim

----------


## Larry Simonson

A friend just lent me a Vinaccia 'Rua Catalana' No. 55 Napoli, 1880 bowl back. I think it must be newer than that as the neck seems to be sheathed in plastic? or some other non-wooden material. Also, the inside appears much like plaster. The exterior surface of the bowl also appears to me as not made of wood and has about 30 embedded silvery wires running the length of the bowl. It has a very ornate tail-piece and tortise shell pick guard. My wife thinks its a wall hanger and I tend to agree. Anyone know anything about such an instrument or its value.  Thanks.

----------


## Jim Garber

Newtonamic:
Do you have some photos of this? Often the necks were sheathed or veneered. My lower-end Calace has what looks like rosewood. High end Italian mandolins sometimes even had tortoise as a veneer on the neck. Super ornate ones had tortoise on the back.

Is your friend giving this or selling it to you? What makes you (or your wife) say that it is a wall hanger? Is it not at all playable?

I would love to see some photos. Is you friend selling?

There is a possibility that it is a fake tho. Copied label on a copy instrument. OTOH photos might reveal something.

Wallhanger... hmmph... 

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Speaking of newer instruments... I just noticed that Scott has added Marco Onorati's work to the bowlback eye candy page.

I did speak to a player in the UK who bought one and loved it enought to sell off his Pandini, so I am curious. I was not aware that Marco even built these himself but according to Chris Acquavella, this is so and he loves his.

Has anyone else seen these instruments? Of course, we are still waiting to hear about Carlo M's work as well.

Jim

----------


## Larry Simonson

I will try to post some photos soon. I am completely new to bowl backs but not Gibson style mandolins. It just seemed quite plastic to me apart from the top which appears very authentic. It does have some cracks in the top and is looks be be caved in slightly. It is playable and sounds much as I expected though it has lots of buzzing on the A string. I think my friend is hoping I will buy it but right now there is little chance of that. Neither of us know what it is worth. I am sure my friend would like to discover that it is a rare sought after instrument and I would be the first to tell him if this were true. I was interested in it because I have recently began to study written music and thought I would like a bowl back.

----------


## Jim Garber

It might be worth something, esp if authentic tho it may be in a sad state. I look fwd to the pics, in any case.

Many of us (myself included) take in these sick, orphaned bowlbacks 

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Newtonamic: I would also be keen to see photographs. I would very much doubt that there is any plastic on an instrument like that. If it has 30 ribs, with inlaid silver wire between them, then it was a very high-end instrument, probably with scalloped ribs. Old Vinaccia-style mandolin always had necks from softwood, usually with a hardwood veneer. As Jim said, the most high-end ones of these were sometimes veneered with tortoiseshell. All of this leads me to suspect that (unless it's an outright fake) you have a high-end Vinaccia. These are very collectible and even in very poor condition your friend will amost certainly find somebody, probably in Italy or Japan, who will be very keen to take it off his hands. Old bowlbacks in poor condition often become wallhangers because the cost of repairs is out of proportion with the commercial value of the restored instrument. For a genuine high-end Vinaccia, that would certainly not be the case and I very much doubt that it's a wallhanger unless it's completely trashed.

On the other hand, an instrument like that, considering the need for repairs to be done by a bowlback expert (you don't want your neighbourhood luthier messing with it), is probably not a good choice for a first bowlback. You might be better off with a good condition mid-range instrument. If you're in the US, decent Washburns, Vegas or Martins are reasonably plentiful; if in the UK, look for good condition de Meglios.

Martin

----------


## etbarbaric

Newtonamic,

I concur with Jim and Martin that what you are describing sounds right for a late 1800's Vinaccia. It sounds like its at least functional, but since it sounds like it may need some work, let me just caution you to take care bringing it up to pitch (and leaving it at pitch). Also, be sure to put only light-guage strings on it, not modern bluegrass strings. Sinking of the top can mean that an underlying brace has let go. As I'm sure you can appreciate, mandolins are under considerable tension when at pitch.

I too am anxious to see photos.

Best,

Eric

----------


## Larry Simonson

Thanks, based on what has been written,I am forthrightly returning this instrument to my friend along with notification that he may have a collectable instrument and that I am taking myself out of the loop. I will also tell him of the interest in photos which I have decided not to publish at this time, especially without my friend's approval. I would suspect these photos etc will be forthcoming in the near future.  Thanks again.

----------


## Jim Garber

Probably a wise move and to preserve a friendship. Personally I would love to hear the story of how he came by this mandolin. Is he in the US or in Europe? 

Jim

----------


## trebleclef528

jgarber Quote:A non-eBay one: nice looking, great condition German bowlback from Randy Osborne's site. I am not so sure about his dating it 1900. It looks a lot more recent than that. 

Also, funny that a relatively high end instrument does not have an extended fretboard.........................................

I agree Jim, it does not look like circa 1900 to me especially with the flamed maple. I have sent the photos to a couple of German contacts to try to find out who the maker actually is, beacuse SCHUTZ Marke simply means trade mark, so perhaps the logo might give an indication. I also doubt that the enclosed tailpeice/string holder is 1900.

Re the discussion on the Vinaccia, it does sound like (without the benefit of photos, that it could be a highend model with silver "metal" strips between the ribs, and the description of the neck sounds like it is covered in TT shell and not plastic... photos would be interesting.
Regards,
ian

----------


## Jim Garber

> I agree Jim, it does not look like circa 1900 to me especially with the flamed maple. I have sent the photos to a couple of German contacts to try to find out who the maker actually is, beacuse SCHUTZ Marke simply means trade mark, so perhaps the logo might give an indication. I also doubt that the enclosed tailpeice/string holder is 1900.


I had a feeling about "SCHUTZ Marke" but my German is non-existent. There are the initials "V.W." and "M" on either side of the minstrel illustration on the label.

Jim

----------


## Larry Simonson

My friend has OK'd my posting of pic for his Vinaccia. Please forgive the photographer.  Pic one is the top.

----------


## Larry Simonson

Here is a closeup of top

----------


## Larry Simonson

and one of side

----------


## Martin Jonas

Thanks for those, Sye. It looks perfectly genuine to me, with scalloped ribs and rather more tasteful than some highly-decorated ones. That's the usual Fratelli Vinaccia label. I can see the distortion in the top and the cracks, so you're right that it needs some work, but it'll be easily worth that. The fretboard markers are a recognised Vinaccia pattern; indeed, it's the pattern that Jon Springall copied for me when he made a new fretboard for my Giuseppe Vinaccia. I like the crescent/oval/diamonds sequence. Can't see on these whether the back and/or neck are varnished rosewood or tortoise veneer. The lining inside the bowl will be paper; it's how they did it (Embergher used wood shavings instead).

Very nice mandolin, that.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Very nice and tasteful Vinaccia. How did your friend ever come by that one? Just curious?

Jim

----------


## Larry Simonson

I believe he got it as a teenager from someone he had done a favor for with the intention of playing it but that apparently never happened so it has been safely aging for 50ish years. Those are the strings that came with it.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Newtonamic,

If it is for sale: Buy it!


Best and good luck, 

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

Ian asked me to post a few photos of a few interesting bowlbacks he has come across. He met a gentleman who has owned these for some time. First is a Vinaccia/Munier signed and dated 1900 that bears very close resemblance to the one brought to our attention by Newtonamic.

Here are a few pics.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Here's the bowl-view.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

A closeup of the tailpiece.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Ian says:



> He also has the last two (partially finished) mandolins ever made by I think Salvatore DeFalco. he was a personal friend of DeFalco's son whom he met many years ago in Italy when he was doing some research on the mandolin. The son said these were the last two mandolins ever made by his father.


Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Here are the bowls of these. One sort of conventionally fluted, one with marquetry.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

One more of the fluted one's bowl with tortoise clasp.

Jim

----------


## trebleclef528

Jgarber Quote:Ian asked me to post a few photos of a few interesting bowlbacks ................

many thanks Jim... yer a gentleman!one of these days I'll work out why I can't get my pics to load on the cafe.. tried the correct resolution etc... still won't work.
Ian

----------


## Larry Simonson

With regards to my friend's Vinaccia, I have decided it is way too special of an instrument for an amateur like me to thrash around on so will not be buying it. So my friend will be looking to find it a new home where it will be appreciated. I will forward PM'd e-mail or your interest to the owner.

----------


## Larry Simonson

Thanks for all the interest in my friend's Vinaccia. I have forwarded all PM'd email on this topic to him, but have convinced him to get me out of the loop. His email address is r.chason@comcast.net and will be glad to hear from you directly.  Thanks, makes me wish I was a bowl back enthusiast but I've been into Bluegrass for too many years.

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## Jim Garber

Newtonamic, what is your friend's name? come to think of it what is your name?

Jim

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## Jim Garber

I just did a search on the Boston Museum of Fine Arts site and they have a nice handful of mandolinos and mandolins in their musical instrument department. Has anyone been there to visit in person? 

Instruments by Benedetto Gualzatta, Leopoldo Franciolini, Giovanni Battista Fabricatore, Ezechiele Torricelli and others.

They also have super-large jpegs.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

Thanks for the link Jim.

The Gualzatta is lovely... and the Fabricatore is certainly interesting... but there's a bit too many Frankenstinian bits by Franciolini the Butcher in that collection. Night of the Living Mando!!! MUUAAAHAHAHAHA! The poor things... one wonders what they were in a previous life (shudder).

Eric

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## Jim Garber

I wonder if some of our denizens have seen that collection. I think perhaps Bob Margo must have been there at one time or Richard Walz in his visits to the area.

Jim

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## margora

"I just did a search on the Boston Museum of Fine Arts site and they have a nice handful of mandolinos and mandolins in their musical instrument department. Has anyone been there to visit in person?"

Yes, absolutely. The MFA musical instrument collection is a great treasure.

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## Arto

"The Gualzatta is lovely... and the Fabricatore is certainly interesting... but there's a bit too many Frankenstinian bits by Franciolini the Butcher in that collection. #Night of the Living Mando!!! #MUUAAAHAHAHAHA! #The poor things... one wonders what they were in a previous life (shudder)."

Sorry... I didn´t quite get this. Who is this Franciolini? And why do those mandolinos look so old style, definitely NOT "late 19th century"?

Arto

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## onthefiddle

> Sorry... I didn´t quite get this. Who is this Franciolini? And why do those mandolinos look so old style, definitely NOT "late 19th century"?
> 
> Arto


Franciolini made a living by butchering old instruments and using their parts to create more "old" instruments designed to get the interest of museums and private collectors. These instruments are generally historical nonsenses, and often non-functional as musical instruments. In its naming of the maker and the dating of these instruments the museum is admitting that it is aware of their individual provenances, though perhaps it should make their background clearer. 
All the Franciolini instruments appear to have been withdrawn from public display, and appear to have come from the collection of Francis Galpin (inspiration for The Galpin Society), so with such a provenance it's not so surprising that the museum may have been hoodwinked initially.

Jon

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## Jim Garber

Mandolin labelled Guadagnini in Torino. Very interesting. The headstock is a dead ringer for my 1920's Calace. The seller says and shows the label which says Gaetano Guadagnini, made in 1824.

Henley lists two Gaetanos, one that worked 1765-1810 and the other that worked 1835-1852. Of course it is possible(?) that the first one made some mandolins in his dotage or that the other made some in order to practice for violin making.

Perhaps Jon can comment: I looked up in my copy of Jalovec and it looks like the label is a handwritten copy of Gaetano II's label. Very suspect to me.

Whatever this is it looks interesting. I doubt it it 1824, but perhaps others more knowledgeable would comment further. It has a sort of Lombard shape to it but has an interesting soundhole and scratchplate. I also like its spartanness. Almost streamlined in the bowlshape which makes me think 20th century, not 19th.

Also of interest is the scallopped fretboard. This makes me think that this is, like the Lombard mandolinos, some sort of hybrid mandolin, like an 8 string Brescian.

I will not be pursuing it tho, so feel free.

Jim

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## Plamen Ivanov

I have a friend, living next to and working in Boston. He is also a mandolin player and has even posted on the Message Board few times. I`ll let him know about that collection.

----------


## Martin Jonas

There's no way that this is an 1824 mandolin. It has mass-produced steel string tuners and tailpiece, for one thing, and the entire scratchplate layout and everything just screams post-1920 to me. I'm not even too sure it's Italian. Difficult to say what the actual shape of the bowl is, as all of the photos are taken from strange angles. There's no cant, so it's not a standard Neapolitan design, but any similarity to a Lombard or Brescian design is likely superficial: this one doesn't have a fixed bridge and is designed for steel strings.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Here is a scan of a Gaetano II label from Jalovec.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Martin:
I was about to say, maybe German copy in the Italian style, when you noted maybe not even Italian.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

Sorry Arto, I shouldn't have been so flip in my posting. Franciolini just brings out the worst in me. Jon's description is accurate. Sometimes you can identify the source of individual pieces of these "creations"... but in general they are a mish-mash of things that don't belong together.... embellished with complete fabrications. They are, essentially, entirely made-up instruments.

The problem was, unlike the original Frankenstein (who made just one monster), Franciolini was *very* prolific. These poor bastardized things are in lots of collections.

Eric

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## onthefiddle

> Perhaps Jon can comment: I looked up in my copy of Jalovec and it looks like the label is a handwritten copy of Gaetano II's label. Very suspect to me.


I agree with both yourself and Martin regarding this instrument. It could be kind of interesting in its own right - but not to me at that price!  

I've been down in London today, and found myself with enough spare time to pop into the Royal College of Music to look at their instrument collection. The stars their for me are a 1724 mandolino by Giovanni Smorsone, another later mandolino made in 1778 by Francesco and Giuseppe Presbler and a 1780 Neapolitan mandolin by Domenico Vinaccia. The picture below shows the Presbler on the left and the Smorsone on the right.

Jon

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## onthefiddle

Here's the 1780 Domenico Vinaccia:

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## vkioulaphides

So, to refresh my weak and ever recalcitrant memory, what _sort_ of mandolin is exhibit 17.1759?  

On another note#no pun intended: Eugene, how is your Faria faring? It was "after Smorsone" or something?... 

Please pardon my incurable ignorance.

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## etbarbaric

Hi Victor,

17.1759 would be a form of Lombardian mandolin. Six single strings tuned to the intervals of the historic mandolino (i.e. fourths with a major third on the bottom)... decidedly 19th century. That said, this is a rather a-typical instrument as these go... It seems rather overweight and not well proportioned to my eye.

Best,

Eric

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## etbarbaric

Thanks very much for the snaps Jon! Three very pretty mandolins. What is that ornate lute-like instrument in the background? It seems to have a bent-back peghead, some sort of inlayed something-or-other around its bridge.

Best,

Eric

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## Jim Garber

> some sort of inlayed something-or-other around its bridge.


17th century humbucking pickup???

Jim

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## onthefiddle

> Thanks very much for the snaps Jon! Three very pretty mandolins. What is that ornate lute-like instrument in the background? It seems to have a bent-back peghead, some sort of inlayed something-or-other around its bridge.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Eric





> jgarber 	Posted on Mar. 16 2006, 15:23
>     17th century humbucking pickup???


Not so far out as you may think.  It's a lute that has been converted to a guitar at some later point in time. The conversion appears to have been done a little clumsily, but using lots of mother of pearl and tortoiseshell! More interesting is the chitarone in the same case, the head of which is visible behind the Vinaccia - it's an apparently unaltered Tiefenbrucker. Unfortunately I didn't have enough memory remaining to photograph it  , but I am planning a return journey (with special regard to the Smorsone) and will photograph it then  . Also of particular interest in the collection is a division viol by Barak Norman, and a cittern by Gironimo Campi. 
Here's another picture of the Smorsone:

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## Embergher

> Mandolin labelled Guadagnini


Thanks for that! ... very amusing ... or should I say hilarious ... !
It's really worth reading the description of the seller ...

Some quotes:
" ... a genuine Torino mandolin by Gaetano Guadagnini, made in 1824 ... the test on paint, result positive like the original ... originally varnished fretboard ... The sounding is extremely strong like modern german camp mandolins (even better) ... The strings are new Thomastik Infield medium, 50$ ... I recommend this mandolin to the advanced soloist, who is looking for an instrument with enormous sound qualities and a great historical background ... "

This man must be a comedian ... he's right about one thing though: " ... not comparable to neapolitanian style mandolins ! ..."

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## Jim Garber

It is *always entertaining* here at Bowlbacks of Note, eh? I think eBay is certainly one of my best sources for entertainment.

Ralf, I like your little ROTFL icon.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

> On another note#no pun intended: Eugene, how is your Faria faring? It was "after Smorsone" or something?...


Wow, I'v emissed a whole lot of groovy stuff in not readign here for a while. #However, we seem to have gotten a little away from the heading of "For sale, auction or otherwise."

Yes, Victor, mine was patterned after the 1736 Smorsone in Berlin. #It is faring marvelously, but I don't get to play it often.

----------


## Eugene

> 17.1759 would be a form of Lombardian mandolin. #Six single strings tuned to the intervals of the historic mandolino (i.e. fourths with a major third on the bottom)... decidedly 19th century. #That said, this is a rather a-typical instrument as these go... It seems rather overweight and not well proportioned to my eye.


I actually found the looks of this thing rather exciting because of its obvious mid-19th-c. Viennese aesthetic and the relative scarcity of such mandolins. Guitar enthusiast/promoter, Makarov, recorded that one of the more important proteges of the Staufer/Stauffer shop, Scherzer, built mandolins. This profile is not unlike an unusal Scherzer heptachord in the Stearns collection. Is there any indication of the maker, Jon?

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## Eugene

Smorsone's work was yummy.

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## Eugene

> Mandolin labelled Guadagnini in Torino. Very interesting. The headstock is a dead ringer for my 1920's Calace. The seller says and shows the label which says Gaetano Guadagnini, made in 1824.


Puuuhlease...and eeew!

----------


## onthefiddle

> I actually found the looks of this thing rather exciting because of its obvious mid-19th-c. Viennese aesthetic and the relative scarcity of such mandolins. Guitar enthusiast/promoter, Makarov, recorded that one of the more important proteges of the Staufer/Stauffer shop, Scherzer, built mandolins. This profile is not unlike an unusal Scherzer heptachord in the Stearns collection. Is there any indication of the maker, Jon?


Are you refering to the instrument to the right of the Smorsone in the photo below Eugene? I have to admit that, being a little pressed for time, I focused my attention principally on the Smorsone and paid little attention to it. It is labelled "David faciebat Anno 1786 a Paris". There was also some conjecture over the portrait painted on the front - possibly of Louis XVI. It is described on page 64 of "Mandolins of the 18th Century" by Stephen Morey, but is not illustrated, so would be hard to find without the makers name.

Jon

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## onthefiddle

> Smorsone's work was yummy.


Here's another piccy

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## onthefiddle

> Smorsone's work was yummy.


...and one more just to make up the set!

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## Jim Garber

> However, we seem to have gotten a little away from the heading of "For sale, auction or otherwise."


This is "otherwise."

I grow tired of *that* auction sometimes... but I can;t stop looking...

Jim

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## etbarbaric

Hi Jon,

I think there are two (maybe three?) conversations going on. I believe Eugene (and Victor, and I) were talking about a Lombardian instrument on the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston site. Instrument catalog number 17.1759. You may well be right Eugene... but I'm afraid it still doesn't do much for me (blatant subjective opinion, that). Maybe its the Franciolini presence that makes me eye everything as suspect... (is that a monster? AUUUUGH! :-)) On closer inspection, it is growing on me a little.

Eric

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## etbarbaric

Back to Jon's photos for a minute. That is certainly a nice Presbler as well. One of the nicest, methinks.

You can probably sell me a close copy of either instrument Jon! :-)

Eric

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## onthefiddle

> Back to Jon's photos for a minute. That is certainly a nice Presbler as well. One of the nicest, methinks.
> 
> You can probably sell me a close copy of either instrument Jon! :-)
> 
> Eric


The Presbler is gorgeous! Unfortunately it is rather late for a mandolino. However - my next visit to the RCM will be to measure and draw the Smorsone  I'll keep you informed!  

Jon

P.S. here's another shot of the Presbler:

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## Jim Garber

Yet another Demeglio 1A. This one looks like it is in good shape but the starting bid is on the high side. Then again, if anyone is looking.

And of so, don't forget Victor's (keep it in the family!)

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Truly#although, of course, I am not "in competition" with anyone, nor pressed to sell. Still, as Jim writes, the opening bid *is* a tad high. Factor in at least some competitive bidding, plus shipping from abroad, plus (nasty!) currency exchange fees, and you are flying high, TOO high in my opinion.

Considering these instruments are hardly "rare", prices should never inch up to $1K. From the other, i.e. bottom end of reasonable pricing, with a low-end mando-thingy from e.g. Musikalia priced at $300-ish, the price-range is reasonably fixed; I would accept anything in between (plus, of course, S & H) from any colleague wishing to "adopt" mine. If (s)he were willing and able to pick it up in person, so much the better! What you see/hear is what you get.

Back to mandolinos: if I understand correctly, double courses mean picking, single ones (possibly, but not necessarily) finger-plucking? Again, please forgive my ignorance... I am puzzled by double courses on lutes, which, of course, are routinely plucked, not picked. Hmmm...

Lutes trouble me... with SO many )**&%!^$# courses (please forgive the outburst), the intonation, ANY fretted intonation must be horrific, despite the nifty, little _tastino_ between the nut and fret #1. How do you spell "Pitch Hell"? Argh... But, perhaps, I am missing something, due to my profound ignorance in such matters.

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## onthefiddle

> Back to mandolinos: if I understand correctly, double courses mean picking, single ones (possibly, but not necessarily) finger-plucking? Again, please forgive my ignorance... I am puzzled by double courses on lutes, which, of course, are routinely plucked, not picked. Hmmm...


Not necessarily so - but I'll let Eric and Eugene respond to that question as they're the real experts in this field.




> Lutes trouble me... with SO many )**&%!^$# courses (please forgive the outburst), the intonation, ANY fretted intonation must be horrific, despite the nifty, little tastino between the nut and fret #1. How do you spell "Pitch Hell"? Argh... But, perhaps, I am missing something, due to my profound ignorance in such matters.


"if a lute-player have lived eighty years, he has probably spent about sixty years tuning his instrument." Mattheson (1720)  

Of course modern nylon strings are not sensitive to changes in humidity in the same way as gut strings, and movable frets have some advantages for those seeking perfect intonation.  

Jon

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## vkioulaphides

*sigh* Yes... I was not even speaking of the (routine) _tuning_ of the instrument (which, as you and Mattheson say, is trouble enough), as I was of the perplexing and, perhaps, hopeless issue of fret-placement. If fretted intonation is a maddening hassle on the nifty, four-course (Neapolitan) mandolin, I cannot imagine how wretched it must be on, say, a *13*-course lute!

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## Geezer

Hello everyone,

"First time caller" here. I am a musician, (so they tell me) and I appreciate old instruments. I have a house full of guitars altho they are hawaiian guitars or what you'd call "lap steels", played on a person's lap with a piece of steel, etc.

I also have this one very old mandolin which is why we are meeting.

I am "NEWTONAMICS" friend Richie, and I own the Vinaccia that recently had it's photos posted on this forum by newtonamic.

I have honestly, no idea of it's value other than it's a very nice old mandolin of obvious quality. The pictures show it pretty much as it is. The strings have been on it for the 55 or more years it's been in my possesion, and it always stays in tune, but let me make clear it is tuned one whole step flat from "standard A 440". This is a completely playable 100+ yr. old instrument folks. It should have a qualified luthier with "caring hands" address a slight sunken area of the top on the treble side of the sound hole. I'd guess there's a brace of some sort under there that is starting to separate from the top. As soon as newtonamic returns this Vinaccia to me, probably this Sun., I'm going to peek under there with a inspection mirror & flashlight and have a look. I will also place a small steel ruler across the depression and try and measure it's depth with another ruler, altho I'd guess it's not much more than 1/8" if that. More on this later when the mando gets back in my possesion.

It's time to pass this Vinaccia on to it's next owner, and I'm not really quite sure how to do this? I certainly want to find it a good home! That's very important to me! Obviously I'd like to be fairly compensated in the process, and I admittedly have no idea what this thing is worth, altho I have one decent offer (it seems decent anyways), from one of your list members. I also had a nice phone conversation with another lister, so I feel the interest might be "out there" in your "mandolin world".

My thought, if it's allowed on this forum, would be to post my e-address, and open myself up for "best offers". I have more pictures thanks to newtonamic, and my e-address is r.chason@ comcast.net. 

I should mention this instrument is located in southern N.H., and I'm open to suggestions, offers, etc.

Let the fun begin! (now lets see if I can post this), oh and apologies for the length of this posting. Let me hear from you.....

Thanks,
Richie

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## etbarbaric

There is, of course a cololary to this:



> "if a lute-player have lived eighty years, he has probably spent about sixty years tuning his instrument." Mattheson (1720)


"... and the other 20 years playing out of tune!"

Seriously though, its not that bad. Gut strings and movable gut frets are a blessing in disguise once you get the hang of things. Basically, you can always repair intonation or at least aproach it... something that I now rather despise about instruments with fixed frets. With fixed frets, one is always dependent on the luthier/builder getting things right, and even then, "right" is not always right (different strings, different bridge compensation, different temperments, etc.)

Lutes/mandolinos come from a time when equal temperment was not known, much less just accepted as it is today. Intonation on a fretted (or keyboard) instrument is *always* a compromise... with movable frets one has some control and can make different compromises and adapt to different temperments. 

The other thing that helps is that gut-strung instruments are ever-so-much more forgiving than their high-tension metal-strung cousins.I've used the example before of my 1801 Cremonese mandolin that had bone frets added (presumably later). The fretting is simply terrible... with some seemingly random placments. Nonetheless, the instrument is quite playable and small adjustments can be made by pulling strings with the left-hand fingers.

There is some maintenance required for gut strings and gut frets, but that is part of the game. The maintenance brings you closer to your instrument and gives you (the player) more control. Got a string buzz? Replace an oft-used fret or select a smaller diameter gut for specific fret or two. No shipment to the luthier required for redressing.

Single or double coursing does not in itself lead to any particular conclusions about plectrum or finger-style use. Neapolitan mandolins (double) were always plectrum instruments. Mandolinos (double) saw both finger and plectrum use. Likewise Milanese mandolins (single) probably saw both while later Lombardian models eventually settled on the plectrum. Guitars started out double, and ended up single, and were played with both, ultimately. The choice seems to have more to do with the stringing technology (metal or gut), the tastes of the day, and the predominant technical practice. For instance ask a modern player of the German School to show you some finger-style technique on their Baroque Mandolin... they will stare back in discomprehension... the plectrum is what they know.

Back to the regularly-scheduled consumption of mandolins.

Eric

----------


## Eugene

> I think there are two (maybe three?) conversations going on. I believe Eugene (and Victor, and I) were talking about a Lombardian instrument on the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston site. #Instrument catalog number 17.1759. #You may well be right Eugene... but I'm afraid it still doesn't do much for me (blatant subjective opinion, that). #Maybe its the Franciolini presence that makes me eye everything as suspect... (is that a monster? #AUUUUGH! :-)) #On closer inspection, it is growing on me a little.


Oops, I was trying to refer to the flat instrument that Jon had pictured and NOT the pig defined as "17.1759" (I just looked at it and agree, it is a bit "lumpy").

On the flat instrument I'd intended to discuss, I would suspect it was subject to a good deal of modification or carries a fraudulent label. The fingerboard in particular doesn't look like anything I'd associate with 18th c. France. Compare it to "Legnani" model guitars from the shop of Staufer and his proteges, even the work of C.F. Martin up to ca. 1850.

----------


## Eugene

> Back to Jon's photos for a minute. #That is certainly a nice Presbler as well. #One of the nicest, methinks.


Indeed. On the ornate end of the Presblers I've seen. Back to those for sale, Cecconi is making a 7-course bass Presbler reproduction. If I were rich...

----------


## etbarbaric

> Oops, I was trying to refer to the flat instrument that Jon had pictured and NOT the pig defined as "17.1759" (I just looked at it and agree, it is a bit "lumpy").


Whew! Thanks for the clarification Eugene. I had been squinting my eyes to try to see what you were seeing in 17.1759 (it wasn't working all that well). I agree that the flatish instrument in RCM is interesting.

As to Sr. Cecconi, I'd love to see one of his instruments in the flesh. I've seen an intstrument he restored, and his technique looks very sound. Anyone played one of his instruments?

Eric

----------


## onthefiddle

> On the flat instrument I'd intended to discuss, I would suspect it was subject to a good deal of modification or carries a fraudulent label. The fingerboard in particular doesn't look like anything I'd associate with 18th c. France. Compare it to "Legnani" model guitars from the shop of Staufer and his proteges, even the work of C.F. Martin up to ca. 1850.


I'm not certain, but I _think_ that the card for that instrument _may_ have mentioned that David was possibly the name of a shop in Paris at that time - so perhaps it was imported and relabelled by the shop (18th century own-branded I suppose!)

I can certainly see what you mean Eugene. I'll ask the curator if they know any more about it next time that I speak to them.

To change the subject (at least momentarily) back to instruments for sale (though not as noteworthy as these eighteenth century rarities) - I was passing through Ware today, and decided to take the opportunity to visit the current location of "John Alvey Turner", run by Doug Parry since 1976. He has an "El Globo" mandolin there which, while a fairly modest instrument, has a good soundboard of nicely grained spruce. The price on his website is very reasonable, so it could make a nice first bowlback for any one looking - especially considering that, unlike most on ebay, it should have no issues.

Jon

----------


## Jim Garber

> I was passing through Ware today, and decided to take the opportunity to visit the current location of "John Alvey Turner", run by Doug Parry since 1976. He has an "El Globo" mandolin there which, while a fairly modest instrument, has a good soundboard of nicely grained spruce. The price on his website is very reasonable, so it could make a nice first bowlback for any one looking - especially considering that, unlike most on ebay, it should have no issues.


Jon:
 Did you also see that Flli. Bellini? It looks like a de Meglio clone.

Jim

----------


## onthefiddle

> Did you also see that Flli. Bellini? It looks like a de Meglio clone.
> 
> Jim


I didn't Jim, though perhaps if anyone is interested it might still be worth checking with him to see if it is still there. Most of the older instruments there are banjos, though Doug Parry was telling me of some very nice bowlbacks that he has sold before now - several Emberghers and a fluted Ceccherini among them.

Jon

----------


## Jim Garber

Yes, I do see that that page was last updated in November.

Jim

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## Geezer

Hello again everyone,

The Vinaccia recently brought to your attention by "NEWTONAMIC" is back home here in southern New Hampshire, and "NEWTONAMIC" graciously made it a temporary case from a sturdy cardboard carton lined with padding. Things are looking up for this old mando finally?

When "N" asked to borrow this, I had no idea what it was, other than a nice old Itallian mandolin, that's been hangin on the wall of my practice studio(s) since I was a teenager. I've been playing guitars all of my adult life, (over 60 years), but just never got into mandolins. Yeah I know, shame on me! I can vouch for this instrument's authenticity because it's been in my possession over half a century! Kinda scary when I think of it that way....

It's time to find a new appreciative home for this instrument, as I am over 70 years old and while I enjoy excellent health (so far), it's time to pass on some of my treasures to younger folks for their enjoyment.

I'll try to take some 35mm pics of the label, and some more detailed pics showing that sunken area on the treble side of the soundhole, I'll try and measure that area etc., altho I can reach inside, (gently of course), and actually feel where a brace on the bridge side of the soundhole seems oh so slightly "wiggly" on it's treble end. There's two braces that I can see just peeking thru the soundhole, one on the bridge side, and one on the frettboard side, and that longer, or bridge side brace does seem to be separating from the top, altho everything feels stable at this point in time.

The instrument is very playable right this moment as it stands, but, I would want an expert to look at this brace / top issue, before I did too much playing on it, and certainly I would have this addressed, if I was going to use the instrument in a professional sense.

I have a friend who is an expert luthier, even in instruments of this nature, he does repairs for the Boston Symphony, etc., and if I can get ahold of him, I'm going to have him take a looksee at my old Vinaccia, give opinions, possible valuation, etc.

"N" mentioned a buzz on the A string? Well I admittedly have a hearing loss, due to being old, and due to spending too many nights playing in wayyyy too loud Country bands, ugh! I'm currently into bluegrass and really enjoy the acoustic nature of the music. That said, and possibly due to the sub-standard nature of my hearing, I'll be damned if I can hear any buzzing on the A string as "N" mentioned? I was playing, (trying to) the Vinaccia just minutes ago and in my opinion, it's certainly playable right now, and altho I don't know one single chord on a mando, I'd be happy to play this instrument over the phone, (yeah what can you tell over the phone, cause the frequencys are not suitable for music, duh), but if anyone interested wants to call me at (603) 490 9903, I'll be happy to try and show that this instrument is really ready to go, and is looking for someone to play it.

I've gotten a couple of calls from interested folks on this forum, and I look forward to comments, suggestions, (monetary offers even :Smile:  , and I certainly appreciate your input and your help in finding this lovely old mando a new home.

Richie
r.chason@comcast.net

----------


## Martin Jonas

It's interesting to see this Carlo Rinaldi for sale. #I own a Rinaldi-labelled mandolin, too, and it has no similarity whatsoever with this one. #Mine is a de Meglio clone in all respects, whereas this one is a take-off of a rather fancy Vinaccia, with scalloped ribs and MOP veneered fretboard. #Some taste issues with this one (flowery inlay??), and maybe an indication that either Rinaldi was happy to copy whatever the customers wanted or that he was in the relabelling business rather than mando-building.

Martin

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## Neil Gladd

I vaguely remember Rinaldi Brothers (or Fratelli Rinaldi) as publishers of mandolin music and importers of mandolins at the turn of the last century, so you may be right about the relabelling business. I remember seeing their picture on a sheet music cover.

----------


## Arto

"It's interesting to see this Carlo Rinaldi for sale"

Have you ever seen expression "ridgeback mandolin" before? Come to think of it, pretty interesting way of describing scalloped ribs!

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## onthefiddle

I had a snipe set up on this auction, but the price exceeded my bid a few seconds before it was due to be placed.

It's a Roman instrument, similar to an Embergher orchestral model, with a rosewood bowl and solid maple neck (stained or painted black). The label apparently says:




> MANDOLINI ROMANI
> 
> MODELLO TARTAGLIA
> 
> ESIGERE LA FIRMA
> 
> Then its what appears to be a signature which is something like
> 
> Gar. Guilis Tartaglias
> ...


Has anyone come across this maker before? 

Jon

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## Jim Garber

Jon:
 I don't know the maker but there was one very similar in Roman style on eBay in 2003.

The only mention I can find is in Sparks of an orchestra director named Giuglio Tartaglia of Rome. Perhaps this was a model made for him under his name.

I was surprised that at the price on this one tho.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jon and Jim,

Gav. Giulio Tartaglia was a virtuoso on the mandolin and one of the very first to understand the values of the Modern Roman Mandolin type. He wrote a substantial two volume tutor for it and placed this type as the best and highest developed mandolin in the long Italian mandolin making tradition. 

You can see a picture of him at my Luigi Embergher website. Just click here and scroll down a bit.


Many greetings,

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

Alex:
 Did Sr. Tartaglia build these mandolins or were they built for him by someone else and if so, who?

Thanks
Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jim,

These instruments (the one you refered to above was a mandola and has recently surfaced again in Japan) were build for him and to his specifications. The answer to your 2nd question about the actual Roman maker of these instruments was, is not so easy to answer... 

One thing however is certain; they pre-date the labelled instruments that were build at the Luigi Embergher firm.


Best,

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

> One thing however is certain; they pre-date the labelled instruments that were build at the Luigi Embergher firm.


So, Alex, are you saying that Embergher also built instruments for Tartaglia or that the one on eBay predated the Embergher design?

Jim

----------


## onthefiddle

Thanks for the information Alex and Jim!

The seller sent me quite a few pictures beyond those in the auction, and from those it is obvious that this instrument is not a straightforward Embergher copy. 
There are stylistic differences, such as maple inlays in the bottom rib (apron rib), but also some other differences such as perhaps a flatter fingerboard. Do you know if the mandola also had a flatter fingerboard Alex, or was this perhaps a later alteration? 
I don't have any really clear photos of the bridge, but from oblique shots it appears to most closely resemble the De Santis bridge on your Embergher.com website Alex.

Jon

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice looking Martin bowlback with Harptone case. Seller says style 3.

And the 1960 Calace in Germany is back. This time the seller says that the high bidder did not want it because it was not made by Raffaele. 

Pretty funny.

Jim

----------


## brunello97

Jim and all,

The Martin does look nice. What about the price? $1100 for an American bowlback that appears to need a neck reset. Is this a good thing in general? I don't know what to think. My Martin 00 cost $150 last fall with similar neck situation.

I have been looking for another Martin but the prices are going up up up. One went for almost $800 the other day:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....IT&rd=1

Has there appeared to be a general trend of increase in American bowlback prices over ebay? I tried to keep rigorous track for a while but caved in mid-winter under the load. It generally seems that prices are creeping up and even trickling down to the mid and lower end models a bit. 

Am I imagining this?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Mick:
I didn't look too closely at those photos but I think you might be correct to say that that one needs a neck reset. I am sure that that seller did not take that into account.

I think only a few of these American bowlbacks are rising in price and Martin is in that group.

We will see if it gets any bites.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

I've seen clean decent high-end Martins go for chump change on ebay; that said, I'd like to think that their value will eventually be realised. An opening bid of over a grand seems optimistic, even if the instrument is worth the money. 

I notice a lot of sellers will start off with a high price, and I assume that they're influenced by prices realised by the more in-demand European instruments, coupled with ignorance of what they have in hand. And of course Martin has name recognition. 

Even so, it is true that quality American bowlbacks are rather disrespected in the market, doubtless because the market is made in countries that have a current interest in bowlbacks, unlike the U.S., and little corresponding experience with our (former) production. I suppose this is all to the good; you can get a splendid instrument for a few hundred dollars if you're lucky and moderately knowledgeable.

Bob's Law applies heavily in this field: soon after you win an auction for the instrument you want, a better example will appear, and sell for a fraction of what you paid.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

> Originally Posted by  (Alex @ Mar. 26 2006, 17:58)
> 
> One thing however is certain; they pre-date the labelled instruments that were build at the Luigi Embergher firm.
> 
> 
> So, Alex, are you saying that Embergher also built instruments for Tartaglia or that the one on eBay predated the Embergher design?
> 
> Jim


Well not so much that Luigi Embergher made instruments #for Tartaglia (I am fairly sure that Embergher didn´t make the instruments under discussion here) but more that the ´Modello Tartaglia´ mandolin (and mandola) pre-date the Embergher instruments. The ´Modello Tartaglia´ instruments have already all the characteristics of the Modern Roman Mandolin type in them. And not only Tartaglia was involved in modernising the mandolin. Quite a number of Roman excellent mandolinists were working together with the best Roman luthiers to improve the Roman Mandolin. This was already going on from the mid 19th Century onwards.

In fact, Luigi Embergher only refined the Modern Roman Mandolin, a type that was already fully developed by the luthier generation just before him. 
Also, because one of his direct competitors/rivals had died around 1905, Luigi Embergher had simply the luck to be the only luthier of repute left with regard to the Modern Roman Mandolin. #

It is because of his talent for good business, his catalogues showing production lines by way of types and models and the fact that he did (almost) not change these lines over the years, that Embergher became known as _the_ creator of the Modern Roman Mandolin. 

In my research I came to the conclusion that this is of course not the truth; there are several other Roman Mandolin makers ànd players who were involved and once there will be enough material (documents and instruments) to publish I think those of us who like Modern Roman Mandolins will be quite amazed. Maybe even bewildered...


Best,

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

Very interesting, Alex. That is surely something I did not know. I guess I was under the assumption that Embergher was the originator of the style and that others copied. 

The oddball is my Carlo Columbo Bruno of Torino who had nothing (it seems) to do with Rome but made his mandolins in the Roman style.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

No one has posted on this thread in a few days, so I figure I will break the ice. 

This rather plain Vinaccia is in moderate state of disrepair esp in the back. For some reason the front is uncracked. I guess either the front or the back will give way, leaving the other intact. This one also has some issues around the neck joint.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

This is the latest de Meglio I've ever seen: according to the seller, the label says 1923. The scratchplate shape and inlay design is a bit different from the earlier ones, but otherwise it looks much the same. Not too good condition though, this one.

I was amused by this Ferrari. The seller's description of the condition is desparately at odds with his photos, to the extent that I wonder whether the photos are from a completely different mandolin. That ugly beast looks like no Ferrari I've ever seen. They are normally rather well-made looking instruments.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> I was amused by this Ferrari. The seller's description of the condition is desparately at odds with his photos


Quite correct, Martin. I can;t figure out how a seller can decribe a "basket-case" instrument as being in excellent condition. It is like describing a car as "in excellent condition, with the exception that the engine was dislocated into the back seat and the steering wheel is a pretzel. Any mechanic who nose what there doing (sic) can fix this up easily."

Jim

----------


## Bob A

"Corners bumped, hinges split, shelfwear on boards, binding shaken, several illustrations missing, foxing throughout, minor insect damage, dust jacket price-clipped, with chipping and tears, else fine."

Cave canem.

----------


## Bill Snyder

Well it might not really be mandolin of note, but would a The Vernon by C Bruno & Son be worth bidding on?
I _think_ I know enough to know that this mandolin is not an upper line instrument, but would it be worth $150-200?

----------


## Jim Garber

> would a The Vernon by C Bruno & Son be worth bidding on?


Lo and behold, here is a second Vernon.

Sold by C. Bruno. Probably okay instrument.

The Goodwill one looks to be in better shape esp since the eBay seller does not even show the back.

Jim

----------


## mandoisland

I just found this mandolin on ebay France. It seems to me a very special one, look for instance at the bridge.
I thought this might be interesting for this thread.
Can anyone read the signature?

----------


## Jim Garber

Sarrablo, I believe, was a Spanish composer of guitar music. I can;t really read the signature on the label but it does not look like Sarrablo.

That bridge loks oike it was fooled with, like the std insert-type bridge, reversed position on the mandolin, with some metal strips added for intonation purposes.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLINE-DE-CONCERT-COPIE-EMBERGHER-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ7405594593QQcategoryZ104485QQssP  age
NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here</a> is an Embergher copy on ebay. It's early yet, but I paid a lot more just for a wooden case like the one shown.

----------


## Bob A

ANd while it's not a bowlback, it's certainly rare, and worth a look: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MARTIN-MANDOLINE-STYLE-E-IN-ORIGINAL-CASE-1928_W0QQitemZ7406629909QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQ
cmdZViewItem" target="_blank">a Martin stye E mandolin</a>.

----------


## brunello97

Bob A

That is a beautiful axe. It is amazing (and demoralizing) to watch Martin prices escalate over the last six months. Martin prices rise faster than my I can save for one....

Mick

----------


## Eugene

> That is a beautiful axe. It is amazing (and demoralizing) to watch Martin prices escalate over the last six months. #Martin prices rise faster than my I can save for one....


Their bowlbacks are still reasonably priced to the point of irrationality.

----------


## margora

"Their bowlbacks are still reasonably priced to the point of irrationality."

Apropos the above, Mandolin Brothers is advertising a Style 7 Martin bowlback, priced at $5K+
Eugene: on another matter, thanks very much for your advice regarding your Brazilian luthier, very helpful!

----------


## Eugene

> "Their bowlbacks are still reasonably priced to the point of irrationality."
> 
> Apropos the above, Mandolin Brothers is advertising a Style 7 Martin bowlback, priced at $5K+


Well, that seems to err slightly to the other side of reasonable.

...And on Brazil: Anytime, Bob.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Not actually a bowlback, but this flatback is very cheap with only a few hours to go, and might appeal to those who like quirky early f-holes.

This noname looks American to me, and might be quite decent. What do others think?

Martin

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi Martin,

I'd say definitely American.... It bears many of the hallmarks of the Washbury/Lyon and Healy shop.

Eric

----------


## Eugene

> This noname looks American to me, and might be quite decent. #What do others think?


This has some quirks that might have me speculatively credit this to the Larson brothers' shop: in particular, the odd, stoutish fingerboard extension to c#''''.

----------


## brunello97

A lot of interesting instruments rolling by over the holiday weekend. I am in the midst of a 12-Step anti-MAS program (or maybe post April 15 anti-IRS program) and unfortunately am on the sidelines.

The Eugene-speculated-Larson went at a very attractive price....

This aluminum bowled Merrill mandolin was particularly interesting:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....IT&rd=1

as is this Ditson (any thoughts on the CFMartin attribution?):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....IT&rd=1

One of the cleanest Washburns I've seen in awhile. Too bad about the bad tuner replacement:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....IT&rd=1

Lots of good stuff abounds, though it seems like Ebay prices are rising. Maybe it's just me, sitting on the bench.

Best wishes for y'all's personalized Rites of Spring.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

The main thing I have noticed lately is another mando-maniac. It seems like ever so often one person has an obsession or a bulging wallet that allows him/her to go insane. The latest I see if one names "videojet" who is bidding on anything with a bowl, parts and then some. Maybe setting up some sort of restoration shop or something.

There were others in the past. Interesting phenomenon. After a while, their list seems to subside.

Pardon me if that alias belongs to someone on this board 

Jim

----------


## Eugene

> as is this Ditson (any thoughts on the CFMartin attribution?):
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....IT&rd=1


There are at least two different mandolins pictured at that Ditson auction, and I wouldn't attribute either to Martin. The one is almost certainly Vega.

----------


## brunello97

Eugene, your encyclopedic registry is impressive. What is it that makes you think Vega in this case?

Okay, now I'm looking a little closer at the photos and have caught the "two different" pick guards....

Hmmm. What is up?

----------


## onthefiddle

While I don't know as much about American bowlbacks as Eugene, I can certainly confirm his identification of a Vega depicted on the Ditson auction page (_possibly_ four of the photos - the front of the headstock, the two of the bowl, and certainly the front of an instrument depicted in the last photograph). This is because I own a very similar instrument myself, the only difference being the fingerboard (mine is bound with engraved inlays, but I've seen this style quite often too). 

This is probably either a style 2 Vega, or a Lansing Special. It's not really clear what the difference between these two models is, but from the quality of tonewoods used in my 1914 Lansing Special I could certainly believe that "selected fine tonewoods" were perhaps used for this model. The things that immediately shout Vega at me when I look at the last photograph are a combination of the shape of the scratchplate, the scratchplate inlay, the soundhole inlay and the shape of the fingerboard extension. The number of ribs, materials of the bowl and neck, and the ivoroid binding shown in the two bowl pictures are all typical for this model of Vega. 

Jon

----------


## Jim Garber

I have a feeling that the seller made a mistake and just copied a previous auction. The label he pictured appears in the beat up mandolin whereas the Vega is last and he probably meant to delete that photo.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

All the headstock profiles look to be Vega. The last soundboard is almost certainly Vega (note the bridge footbprint). I've seen "Lansing Special" on a couple different looking instruments, but I'm not certain if that was Vega's intent or the result of swapping hardware.

----------


## Martin Jonas

The good news: it's an Angara & d'Isanto. The bad news: it's thoroughly trashed.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

> The good news: it's an Angara & d'Isanto. The bad news: it's thoroughly trashed.
> 
> Martin


Martin,
How is y'all's forensic science? Does what appears to be a bridge 'shadow' suggest an extended period of compensation for a bad neck alignment in advance of the fatal break? Or is that a mark from a dampner/clamp?
Is it fatal?
Mick

----------


## Bob A

Looks like a bridge shadow, but it's unlikely that such a displacement could produce anything like proper compensation under any conceivable set of conditions. If I had to guess, I'd say the bridge ended up there a few years after it got hung up on a wall, and stayed there for five, six decades. Fatal? The thing looks pretty terminal as is. I wouldn't even think of life support for this one. Massive infusions of cash might allow it to shamble around, but 'twould be a zombie-like semi-existence at best.

----------


## Jim Garber

Must be that time of the year for all the Angara & d'Isantos to come out to roost. Here is another one in better shape.

I suppose it is Spring Cleaning time and time to get that old dusty bowlback out of the closet and on eBay.

Anyone know this maker: Francesco Testori?

Jim

----------


## brunello97

I was thinking of bidding on this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....ck=true

but I am about $49,500 short. Some of you more flush cats can go on right ahead. No fear of me 'sniping' you at the last minute.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> I was thinking of bidding on this:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....ck=true


I emailed the seller at the outset of this auction. She told me that her son-in-law had posted this for her and had made a typo on the price. At the time she had the price at $5000 with a reserve. I was floored to see the price 10X higher and wrote her in kind words to tell her that perhaps she was a little out of line, even if she has retail experience.

This does look like an interesting mandolin by an unknown maker and I like the obscurity but that super-fancy Embergher Tipo 8 sold for only about $10,000 as I recall.

I may try to work out something with her if she comes down from the clouds. 

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> Must be that time of the year for all the Angara & d'Isantos to come out to roost. Here is another one in better shape.


And yet another Angara and d'Isanto.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

I finally placed an order, long overdue, for Ralf and Barry's Embergher book. Ralf has made it quite convenient here

Jim

----------


## Bob A

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/mandolino-Raffaele-CALACE-1912-mandoline-mandolin_W0QQitemZ7411967601QQcategoryZ359QQssPag



eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Calace</a> needing some work.

----------


## Bob A

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/VINACCIA-Mandolino_W0QQitemZ7411424503QQcategoryZ10179QQssP  ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewIte


m" target="_blank">Vinaccia</a> with lopped peghead.

After 4 tries to get this link to work, I give. Try ebay 7411424503 if you want to see it.

I'd have loved to have found either or both a couple years ago. Now I'm awash in repair jobs (as well as playable instruments, thankfully). But frankly, both my Vinaccia and Calace instruments are rosewood, and I prefer maple. Sadly, solvency and sanity are also at issue. But perhaps someone here might be interested in one of these.

----------


## Jim Garber

> After 4 tries to get this link to work, I give. Try ebay 7411424503 if you want to see it.


Try this link for the Vinaccia. That seller is one of those madman buyers from the recent past who now is selling some of his treasures.

It looks like a pretty nice one aside from the broken-off peghead tip.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

I don't recall seeing this particular Martin/Handley Style 6 in South Dakota but it seems (as I recall) to be fancier than #Eugene's 6a or others I have seen. True or no?

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

This is an interesting beast. Made by a Neapolitan luthier (Kisslinger), built like a Milanese mandolin, with flattop and fixed "moustache" bridge, and according to the seller tuned like a guitar (which I guess makes it the equivalent of one of these German guitar "lutes").

If one were to tune it in fourths, I guess it might just as well be called a Milanese octave mandola. Except that it takes steel strings, not gut.

If it had stayed cheap, I would have considered bidding to see what musical merits it has. As it's now going up, maybe someone else wants to take a punt.

Martin

----------


## Eugene

> I don't recall seeing this particular Martin/Handley Style 6 in South Dakota but it seems (as I recall) to be fancier than #Eugene's 6a or others I have seen. True or no?


That's cool, seems to me to be perfectly in line with the 6a aesthetic, and certainly is fancier than mine, but mine isn't a 6a. Under the model column in the Martin logs, mine is only designated "joints of maple, 42 ribs." It's what Longworth designates an "Unidentified Special."

----------


## Eugene

> This is an interesting beast. #Made by a Neapolitan luthier (Kisslinger), built like a Milanese mandolin, with flattop and fixed "moustache" bridge, and according to the seller tuned like a guitar (which I guess makes it the equivalent of one of these German guitar "lutes").
> 
> If one were to tune it in fourths, I guess it might just as well be called a Milanese octave mandola. #Except that it takes steel strings, not gut.
> 
> If it had stayed cheap, I would have considered bidding to see what musical merits it has. #As it's now going up, maybe someone else wants to take a punt.


That's cool too. I've come across a few other Italian "liuti" after guitars from this era. Of course, the German lauten were more common thanks to the Wandervogel movement. I used to be pretty disparaging of such things, but (at least in the better constructed pieces) have come to appreciate their links to the earlier mandora. I don't know, but suspect this just as easily might have originally been strung in gut.

----------


## Jim Garber

This Vinaccia-labelled mandolin does not look quite right to me. The headstock seems unusual, the inlay seems clumsily done and the end of the fretboard looks rather blunt. Also the neck joint looks wrong for a 1st decade of the 20th century Vinaccia.

OTOH I think it will go for stupid money.

What do others think?

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mandola-Octave-Mandolin-Suzuki-Ibanez-Cortez_W0QQitemZ7413279586QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQ  cm

dZViewItem" target="_blank">This</a> is the only fluted-back Suzuki I've ever seen; looks an intriguing mandola and if it's any good, it may not be a bad price either.

Also, a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GIOVANNI-KASERMANN-fecit-NAPOLI-1927-MANDOLIN_W0QQitemZ7412395455QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1  QQc
mdZViewItem" target="_blank">Giovanni Kasermann</a> with an ugly crack.

Martin

----------


## Embergher

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mandola-Octave-Mandolin-Suzuki-Ibanez-Cortez_W0QQitemZ7413279586QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQ  cm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dZViewItem" target="_blank">This</a> is the only fluted-back Suzuki I've ever seen; looks an intriguing mandola and if it's any good, it may not be a bad price either.


Yes indeed, it looks very nice. You don't very often see fluted back Suzuki mandolas, certainly not rosewood ones. It's a very good price for that quality. Quite a bit of work went into it: 36 fluted ribs is nearly as much as a concert Embergher. A slotted head with side mounted tuners (I find them easier to tune and more professional looking), 25 frets (pity, 29 would have made it a real concert instrument, but 25 is quite good already) a narrow grain spruce table, and it even has a compensated bridge; with a decent set of strings it must sound quite good ... probably a better buy than a Calace. 
If I didn't prefer Embergher mandolas with their thin neck and narrow fingerboard, I'd be tempted to buy this one ... maybe not a thing for collectors (yet), but a very healthy and most probably wonderfully sounding mandola for a player.

(I asked the scale length: 43cm ... rather short, but not unusual)

----------


## billkilpatrick

sampling the delights of a newly repaired bowl-back and wishing you all, all the joys of spring:

----------


## Jim Garber

> sampling the delights of a newly repaired bowl-back and wishing you all, all the joys of spring:


Bill:
Lovely sentiments! The very same to you. 

Do you have a larger photo so we can actually see you and your mandolin?

Jim

----------


## billkilpatrick

> Originally Posted by  (billkilpatrick @ May 08 2006, 11:35)
> 
> sampling the delights of a newly repaired bowl-back and wishing you all, all the joys of spring:
> 
> 
> Bill:
> Lovely sentiments! The very same to you. 
> 
> Do you have a larger photo so we can actually see you and your mandolin?
> ...


i tried loading the photo directly from the camera but exceeded the byte level.

besides ...

if i show you (all) just how beautiful and sweet sounding the mandolin has become since its little visit to the lutiao and how bright and fresh everything in the background looks and smells and how nice the sun feels on the top of your (my) shiney pate after a cold, wet, miserable winter ... with the birds tweety-tweet-tweeting in the cypress trees and the buzzin' of the bees in the fields filled with olive trees and wild flowers down below ... you'll only want to come and see for yourself and then ... you'll probably want a swim ... and then - quite naturally - you'll be thinking about lunch ... and then ... you'll start to be thinking about how much extension cable you'll need to hook-up the house to where you've (all) parked your camper-vans ... and then, before you know it ... winter will be coming on and ...

small's beautiful - bill

----------


## Eugene

I still would like to see it. Ah well...

----------


## Jim Garber

Bill:
Send me the pic directly and I will post it ina viewable size. 

Send me the pic... or else I will park my RV outside your olive trees...  

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Another <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Cortez-Mandoline-Model-243-inklusive-Koffer_W0QQitemZ7413734060QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQ  cmd
ZViewItem" target="_blank">Suzuki/Cortez</a>, this time a mandolin.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Bill,

We are already on the way to you     !!!


Best and congrats with your mandolin,

Alex and family

----------


## Jim Garber

> sampling the delights of a newly repaired bowl-back and wishing you all, all the joys of spring:


Bill:
Here you go...

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Bill --

That looks absolutely lovely, the setting as well as the mandolin! This is the American-built bowlback you got as an unexpected gift from friends in Italy, isn't it? 

I think Jim and I need to resurrect our idle musings of a few months ago to pay you a visit this summer for some ad-hoc trios in your local trattoria...

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a very larger mandolone. It looks like it needs a lot of work -- lots of top cracks. Carlo Aonzo sent me this jpeg. I think it is in Battery Park near the Ritz Carlton in New York. 

Jim

----------


## billkilpatrick

> ... I think Jim and I need to resurrect our idle musings of a few months ago to pay you a visit this summer for some ad-hoc trios in your local trattoria...


my husban' is no here now ... he's bean kidnapp-ed by the secret agents of the north korea ... muy sad but, thas' the way it goes ... he's gonna' be gone long time. 'dey take the mandolin too - jus' me and the really quite ferocious dogs now.

all the best - ramona

----------


## Arto

# # 

My condolences to you, Ramona. This is really a tragic turn of events...

The only good thing that might come out of this, is that now North Koreans have at least a few mandolins in their country. As things go, we´ll soon be hearing glowing reports about the world´s absolutely greatest, hitherto obscure mandolin virtuoso, Kim Jong Il.

Did they take Bill´s ouds and charangos, too? If they did, there´s more to come...

My prayers are with you.
Arto

----------


## Jim Garber

I have a feeling that this 1895 DeMeglio might be an ugly duckling. Sort of dirty looking but it might sound good.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> This Vinaccia-labelled mandolin does not look quite right to me. The headstock seems unusual, the inlay seems clumsily done and the end of the fretboard looks rather blunt. Also the neck joint looks wrong for a 1st decade of the 20th century Vinaccia.
> 
> OTOH I think it will go for stupid money.
> 
> What do others think?
> 
> Jim


JUst wondering if anyone would care to comment on this one. For some reason it does not scream Vinaccia to me. Am I wrong? Has anyone seen a Fratelli Vinaccia with that neck joint?

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Headstock weird for Vinaccia; OTOH the angels and lyre look like the fancy wreck I scored; so does the neck joint. Mine's dated 1920, differs in peghead, has a long board (this one does look lopped), different tailpiece (mine looks American), and mine has an asymmetric scratchplate that occupies more real estate on the treble side, like some of the flatback Larson Bros mandos. Neck joint looks like mine, with tortoise wrap.

I suspect that both instruments have been altered to some extent (my label has been rotated 90 degreess and reglued, also I think signed by Ciani) and were originally over-the-top instruments ordered by rich Yankee tourists, or made for that trade. Also both were apparently abused by early owners or their descendants.

Stupid money? Well, there's no shortage of fools in the marketplace, even if I've slowed down quite a bit. Let's hope that they continue to abide therein, so we can unload a few mistakes for top dollar in future.

----------


## Fliss

Another De Meglio has just cropped up on e-bay UK, this one very much in need of tlc, but I'm sorry I can't work out how to get the link to work! 

Fliss

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I have a feeling that this 1895 DeMeglio might be an ugly duckling. Sort of dirty looking but it might sound good.


It _might_ sound good and there are no visible defects. It certainly is a bit dirty and who knows what will emerge once seen in person. Nevertheless, this one for some unknown reason soared in the auction where the last few de Meglios went for peanuts. Final price for this one was £246, which is well above what Fliss paid for hers even after the luthier bill (which I suspect this one will need, too).

Martin
PS: Just made another Ebay purchase, too, but as it's a cittern (this one) not a bowlback, I'll say more about it in an appropriate place once I have it my hands.

----------


## trebleclef528

martin........ having recently witnessed (at the lgma residential weekend) the bargains you have picked up on ebay I would not be at all surprised if this cittern turns out to be another stunning player.

When I'm rich (ha ha) I'll give you a job as my "mandolin buyer"
Cheers
ian........ Off to the Bamberg festival in a few days ..Yippeeeee

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## Martin Jonas

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GUISEPPE-VALAPIGLA-NAPOLI-MANDOLIN_W0QQitemZ210000207033QQcategoryZ10179QQrd  Z1QQcmdZViewIt
em" target="_blank">This</a> is an intriguing instrument. Scratchplate, fret markers and headstock shape look much more like a Ceccherini than a de Meglio, but is labelled as neither. No stringdownholder bar or hooks. None of the angles allows one to see whether there's a double top. From the engraved tuner backplate (all of the de Meglios or Ceccherinis I've seen have two separate tuner plates rather than one big one), it would have been quite a classy instrument, and it seems in good shape.

Now, why would anyone in their right mind bid <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Beautiful-Quality-19th-C-Italian-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ7415365636QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1  QQcmdZV
iewItem" target="_blank">this</a> thing up to £500? OK, it's fluted, but otherwise it's a no-name overdecorated Vinaccia imitation. Same high-bidder as on the £250 de Meglio. Presumably he'll come to his senses at some stage and stops overpaying.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Martin: For some reason, your links do not work for me.

Giuseppe Valapiglia

Fratelli Giannini

I have pics of another Valapiglia from about a year ago on eBay and that one resembles a plain Vinaccia.

Tho that Giannini is a little over-the-top in ornamentation, it looks like a well-made instrument, not so bad. Not my taste but I suppose someone sees omething in that. That bidder is one of the manic ones lately who seem to buy lots of bowlbacks. They fade in and out with time.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Thanks for fixing those links. I think Ebay must have changed its search scripts: URLs taken from search listings don't stay valid anymore as they used to. I'll try to remember that.

Here is a bit of a horror story -- reptile dentistry on the soundhole, without any mention in the item description.

Maybe I was a bit harsh about that Giannini, but it doesn't appeal to me much. Not £500 much to me, anyway.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Nice looking simple Vinaccia that should get lots of attention. I can't tell if the top was varnished or not. In ostensbly overall good condition, with nice-looking bowl.

Jim

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## trebleclef528

I know this is not the right forum for this and I apologise, but I thought you would all be stunned by this master peice... just when you thought you'd seen it all! (I do have another name for it but better not say it or i'll get into trouble) <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/HANDMADE-AMERICAN-MANDOLIN-SHAPE-OF-KENTUCKY_W0QQitemZ7416560203QQcategoryZ308QQrdZ1QQ  cmdZ
ViewItem" target="_blank">here</a>(ebay Item number: 7416560203)
I think I'll start a business making mandolins in the shape of countries!

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Ian,

Since the link didn´t work I tried to get it working.

I think it works now; Click on this line.


Fun!

Alex.

----------


## brunello97

Alex, Ian,
Well, I have to admit, I kind of like the way it looks. 
But it's a rather inaccurate map of Texas, isn't it?
Mick

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## dave17120

Would anyone actually buy that?!!! I suppose that's a stupid question really. There's nowt so strange as folk!
Dave

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## Alex Timmerman

Indeed Dave, nothing so strange as human ears and taste.

Look at this thing with strings that was once was for sale somewhere on eBay.
It was named "Mickey" and probably listens to that also  !


Best, 

Alex

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## Jim Garber

Lots of mandolin oddities (bowl and other) on this thread.

Jim

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## brunello97

> Now, why would anyone in their right mind bid <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Beautiful-Quality-19th-C-Italian-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ7415365636QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1  QQcmdZV
> 
> 
> iewItem" target="_blank">this</a> thing up to £500? OK, it's fluted, but otherwise it's a no-name overdecorated Vinaccia imitation. Same high-bidder as on the £250 de Meglio. Presumably he'll come to his senses at some stage and stops overpaying.
> 
> Martin


Well, this bidder "Videojet123" has been buying/bidding up a wide range of bowlbacks over the last couple months. Apparently he/she has pretty deep pockets. Lots of Negative Ebay feedback regarding this person though, contributing to a bad vibe around the market. Hopefully, he/she will wear out soon. 

I have a to thin the mandolin herd a bit and had been thinking to use ebay but perhaps might put it off or rethink it until this character lays out. Maybe I ought use the Cafe classifieds instead. I wouldn't mind somebody bidding up price, but apparently there are some issues about non-payment. Such are the gambles on Ebay I guess. These types take a bit of the fun out of it.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I tried for this Embergher tipo B but someone wanted it more. Probably went for the upper end of the range for this student model. The Buy It Now price was out of line IMHO.

Still, it is an Embergher. I think it might need a little work to get it to top playing shape. 

Still, it is an Embergher.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Just curious... this is mentioned on both Alex's wonderful site and Ralf and Barry's book:



> Cetra Madami - Embergher
> 
> Instrument per concertista e solista
> 
> This instrument is constructed with the technical criteria of Cav. Luigi Embergher and after the design by Prof. Aldebrando Madami. - The difference with the mandolin is only in form, but possesses a very beautiful sound that meets great appreciation.
> 
> NB. These instruments are constructed only in the N. 2 and N. 5-bis.


Has anyone actually seen one of these strange birds? It looks like a Embergher interpretation of a mandolyra.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jim (and others),

I have seen one of these instruments in real. Unfortunately that one was damaged in such a way that it was unplayable. So for its sound we have to rely on the what's written in the Embergher catalogue(s). Also on photo I have a Quartet of these instruments of which I will give you a description below. 
 #
The Madami-Embergher Cetra has - unlike the pot-like back Neapolitan Lyra mandolins developed by Nicola and Raffaele Calace and the one-arm pot-back Lyra mandolins by their townsman Federico Gardelli or as the Milanese pot-back back Lyra mandolin examples by for instance Octachordis and P. Dabiero - a flatback body-design that comes close to one of those upright standing 6-string lyra-guitars made in France and Italy of about 1800. The body is somewhat more edged, and starts at the fingerboard at the 15th fret. Both hollow arms do not like the Neapolitan Lyra examples, extend to the height of the instruments head. But are so to speak, cut off abruptly; about half way on the left and even shorter at the right arm (when observed from the front). It almost looks like the fingerboard is not placed in the centre of the instrument because more room for the left hand is created by keeping the design of the right arm small. The outcome of this of course, is to provide more than enough space to move freely up and down the whole fingerboard. But it sure does give the Madami-Embergher Cetra its asymmetric and futuristic presence.

The Madami-Embergher Cetra has the head and tuning mechanics, the neck and fingerboard of the Embergher mandolin models 2 and 5bis and with that it also shares its mandolin tuning. Also from the mandolin it has a canted sound table, a movable bridge and a metal tailpiece at the sound table on the edge of the instruments bottom. Indeed, in fact we have a true flat back mandolin with a modernized Lyra design here! 

Its all quite interesting, because this design (or Cetra as it was named by its creators Adami and Embergher) must have been well received since maestro Aldebrando Adami used the instruments with this design in his Mandolin Orchestra and played the Cetra himself in his quartet. 
Notable also is that Embergher build a complete quartet with this Cetra design and that this quartet did not resemble the so highly regarded Classical Mandolin quartet (Quartetto Classico a Plettro) with its 2 mandolins, a mandoliola (alto-mandolin) and a Mandoloncello, but much more the 2 mandolins, the mandola and the 6-string guitar of the (originally) Romantic Mandolin quartet (Quartetto Romantico a Plettro). 

The only difference with the Romantic Quartet is found in the fact that Embergher (and Adami) added an extra free floating bass-string to the (6 string) guitar in the(ir) Cetra quartet. The bass strings of the Cetra guitar were made of silk wounded with metal while the material for the three upper strings was twisted lamb gut. They are attached to a pin bridge that is glued to the sound table (Exactly like this is done on early 6-string guitars). To be even more complete; the sound table of this instrument is unlike the mandolin and mandola, NOT cranked but flat. Naturally with the wider tone ambitus of the low 7th string on the (Cetra) guitar Embergher and Adami created more possibilities to execute the low(est) notes when these were required in a composition or arrangement. Something we know that Luigi Embergher was always concerned about since it was his great wish that the whole string quartet repertoire could be played on his quartet instruments. 

The extra bass string of the Cetra guitar could be tuned to either D or C. And when tuned to C the gap between the tone E (the open 6th string above the fingerboard) could be filled in by tuning this 6th string down to D. In this way the diatonic line in the bass from the low C upwards was complete because on the 6th string the D (D sharp) ánd E etc. can be played on the fingerboard. Of course other tone-arrangements in the register of the bass are possible here. With the low C on the 7th string of the Cetra guitar the difference in the low register of the Mandoloncello and the 6-string guitar was equalized in a very effective manner.


Atttached you find a photo of the moulds that are used for some of the Cetra Adami-Embergher quartet instruments. All of them are preserved in the Embergher-Cerrone Museum in Arpino (Italy). And in the right corner of the vitrine you can see a picture from a Madami-Embergher Cetra in a sale-catalogue of the early 19-twenties.

Well I hope I have answered your question and that you have enjoy this. For me it was nice to look it all up in my files. 


Best, 

Alex 


Photo and text *©* Alex Timmerman.

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## Jim Garber

Excellent Alex. I will pore over this dissertation on this instrument. Thanks
Jim

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## Embergher

The Cetra-Madami is clearly a product of its time. There was a demand for such things and even Embergher couldn't escape of it, but of course these instruments are not to be taken seriously. The entire quartet was only made because it was marketable at the time. It's only "fashion" and nothing else. 
BTW, if you just try to hold such an instrument properly, you immediately notice that this is very difficult and feels awkward (the overall shape and flat back don't provide the right proportions which are needed to hold the mandolin in a traditional way). Also problematic is the shape of the table (and body) at the highest positions of the fingerboard (fret 16 - 29). It is nearly impossible to even reach that part of the fingerboard with a "natural" hand position, let alone to do any fast playing there.
Well, some "maestri" will certainly have used these instruments, but in Italy you don't have to be an exceptional concert player or virtuoso to be called "maestro" ... it is the common titel for any one who knows how to play an instrument. 
I'm sure Embergher would never have dared to recommend these instruments to his important clients. 

(as there seems to be a reason to mention this ... idea and text © Ralf Leenen) #

----------


## Jim Garber

Looking over images of Emberghers in both Ralf's book and Alex's site  who, me? obsessed?  I notice how understated all except the artist model Emberghers were. Nowhere do I see pearl borders or excess inlay. Similar to the aesthetic of early Martin guitars (not upper-level bowlbacks). That is why I find it interesting to see these outlandish Cetra-Madami instruments. I get the feeling that Luigi might have built these begrudgingly or else got a good sum of money for them.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

This Kisslinger looks rather intriguing. Lots of de Meglio features, but with significant variation. Same maker as that nice-looking guitar-lute a few weeks ago. Pity there's no close-up of the bridge and the string downholders, which look like metal.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Interesting... I wrote to the seller of the Kisslinger who informs me that there will be change in international postal rates in the UK and shipping for this to the US would be something like £80. I will likely not go for it anyway.

Jim

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## Eugene

Some time ago, I almost bid on a very different Kisslinger: simple decor with odd-shaped pickguard and a simple maple bowl, more akin to the late 19th-c. Vinaccia pieces. #Obviously, this is no 1872 instrument, but 1900.

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## Embergher

> Looking over images of Emberghers in both Ralf's book and Alex's site  who, me? obsessed?  I notice how understated #all except the artist model Emberghers were. Nowhere do I see pearl borders or excess inlay. Similar to the aesthetic of early Martin guitars (not upper-level bowlbacks). That is why I find it interesting to see these outlandish Cetra-Madami instruments. I get the feeling that Luigi might have built these begrudgingly or else got a good sum of money for them.
> 
> Jim


Jim, don't worry ... being an incurable Embergher addict I don't even notice a simple obsession  

But I think you're right, from a player's point of view or even a luthier's point of view these instruments don't seem attractive or interesting at all. It certainly has to do with "business" and "marketing" ... and if this is what clients asked for you can't even blame him ... in Dutch we have a saying "The Client is King", and no doubt in Italy they say "Il Cliente é Re".

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jim,

Since it has some mandolinistic features of note I thought a Banjophonolin would be at its place here. 


Cheers, Alex

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## vkioulaphides

Ah, well... that's certainly _one_ way of addressing the need for *projection*!

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## Jim Garber

> This Kisslinger looks rather intriguing. #Lots of de Meglio features, but with significant variation. #Same maker as that nice-looking guitar-lute a few weeks ago. #Pity there's no close-up of the bridge and the string downholders, which look like metal.


No pity. Take a look at this metal bridge with screws into the top. Sad.

I think the string staples are original but the bridge is not (I hope).

Jim

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## Embergher

Does anyone know the advantage(s) of those "string staples"? 
I'm trying very hard to find one, but I only see disadvantages ...

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## Jim Garber

In the Ceccherini double-topped mandolins I believe that they somehow transferred sound to the lower level. Other than that my guess is that they also change the string angle and put more downward pressure. prob similar to the Virzi tone thing -- rather gadgety.

Jim

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## Embergher

> In the Ceccherini double-topped mandolins I believe that they somehow transferred sound to the lower level. Other than that my guess is that they also change the string angle and put more downward pressure. prob similar to the Virzi tone thing -- rather gadgety.
> 
> Jim


Yes, "more downward pressure", that's what I thought. Not particularly an advantage if you ask me. It think it can also cause tuning problems because of the uneven tension you get at different parts of the strings.

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## Bob A

I don't think the string trees are coupled to the lower sound board on my Ceccherinis. I too am hard pressed to figure a real advantage: it would seem that extra downward force would be cancelled by the upward pull on the soundboard. They do eliminate any necessity for damping the strings between bridge and tailpiece, however. And I must say that the tone of the Ceccherinis is splendid, so far as I'm concerned. Tuning has been no problem for me with the trees in place.

I think the Kisslinger in question has a similar nut/zero fret to the Ceccherini instruments, but I found the pics difficult to examine for detail when I looked at them the other bay, so I may be wrong. Certainly the bridge is an abomination. And what is it with the inlaid chunk of plastic beyond the trees? I took it for a shadow at first glance.

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## Jim Garber

Yes, you are correct, Bob, about the zero fret.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is another one of the bridge area.

Jim

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## Bob A

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/19th-Antique-Italian-Mandolin-Lion-Head-Carved-RARE_W0QQitemZ7418326392QQcategoryZ10179QQr
dZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's</a> an interesting item. Pegbox kinda shattered, but if repaired it might be a fun instrument. Love the inlay work.

----------


## Bob A

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Electric-Oud-Ud-Fretless-Guitar-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ7418791228QQcategoryZ623QQrdZ1QQ  cmdZ
ViewItem" target="_blank">Omygawd! An electric oud!!</a>

----------


## onthefiddle

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/19th-Antique-Italian-Mandolin-Lion-Head-Carved-RARE_W0QQitemZ7418326392QQcategoryZ10179QQr
> 
> 
> dZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's</a> an interesting item. Pegbox kinda shattered, but if repaired it might be a fun instrument. Love the inlay work.


From what I can see in the photos, it appears that the pegbox of this instrument has been repaired at least once before. The previous repair(s) to the pegbox seem to have been done reasonably well, with cheeks fitted to the inside of the pegbox wall (the old practice of fitting cheeks to the outside of the pegbox always ends up looking ugly).
The pattern of the cracks in the pegbox walls is a little unusual - which gives me some cause for concern, especially considering the filler that appears to have been used in the treble side rib.

Jon

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## Martin Jonas

> And what is it with the inlaid chunk of plastic beyond the trees? I took it for a shadow at first glance.


I don't think that's an inlay: I think it's the lyre-shaped tortoiseshell layer that was originally fixed to the top of the lyre-shaped metal sleeve protector. At some stage in the instrument's previous history it probably came loose and was stuck underneath the strings to prevent it from getting lost.

I agree with Bob that the hooks on the Ceccherinis don't seem to go down to the second soundboard and don't seem to have anything to do with providing acoustic coupling. I think they are, like the de Meglio bar, just intended to increase the string break angle. Whether that's a good thing one may argue about, but it might be relevant to note that these instruments have a much less pronounced cant than an Embergher as well as much thinner fingerboards and bridge heights, all of which reduces the string break angle (greater cant equals greater string break angle equals greater downward pressure on top). One of the Lloyd Loar innovations was the introduction of the raised fretboard on the F5, to increase string break angle and, supposedly at least, volume and projection.

It's anybody's guess to what extent the greater string break angle achieved by a downholder is negated by the upwards pull of the hooks themselves and the resulting torque. I've never seen a de Meglio or Ceccherini that had a warped top between the bridge and the downholders, so presumably the bracing they use to support that system was perfectly suitable to withstand this torque for a century or so. The same can't be said of many more celebrated vintage instrument designs (sunken tops on the Gibson A anyone?).

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> One of the Lloyd Loar innovations was the introduction of the raised fretboard on the F5, to increase string break angle and, supposedly at least, volume and projection.
> &lt;snip&gt;
> The same can't be said of many more celebrated vintage instrument designs (sunken tops on the Gibson A anyone?).


One not-so-obvious innovation of the Embergher design that I learned from Ralf and Barry's book is the hollowing out of the fretboard extension so that only the edges of the fretboard touch the top of the instrument.

As for Gibson sunken tops: considering how many Gibson mandolins there are, there are relatively few sunken tops. Most of those are caused by braces becoming unglued in conjunction with super-heavy strings. 

Jim

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## etbarbaric

> The pattern of the cracks in the pegbox walls is a little unusual - which gives me some cause for concern, especially considering the filler that appears to have been used in the treble side rib


An interesting piece (though already getting expensive). Can we assume that all of these bidders actually *play* instruments in Lombardian tuning? Here the nomenclature begins to fail us... a Genoese Lombardian Mandolin? :-)

You may be right, Jon, about the interior cheek patches in the pegbox. Clearly this will need some careful work. As for the "filler" on the treble side rib, I think there is another explanation. I paid way too much to restore a fractured Albertini Lombardian mandolin a few years ago. Once the restorer got into working on the bowl, he discovered that the ribs were actually laminations of at least two plys. My restorer about lost his mind working glue into all the little places that were separated. 

In this case, though the fluting would seem to indicate solid ribs, it looks very much as though the side ribs are built from a lamination of thin (maple?) over a darker wood (rosewood?). This makes sense as it would be easier to do the inlays in a thin veneer that was then reinforced from behind. The dark spot in the treble rib looks to me like an area where the outer veneer has broken away.

Eric

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## Embergher

> Originally Posted by  (martinjonas @ May 31 2006, 06:14)
> 
> One of the Lloyd Loar innovations was the introduction of the raised fretboard on the F5, to increase string break angle and, supposedly at least, volume and projection.
> &lt;snip&gt;
> The same can't be said of many more celebrated vintage instrument designs (sunken tops on the Gibson A anyone?).
> 
> 
> One not-so-obvious innovation of the Embergher design that I learned from Ralf and Barry's book is the hollowing out of the fretboard extension so that only the edges of the fretboard touch the top of the instrument.
> 
> ...


This partly "hollow" fingerboard is found on (nearly) all Embergher instruments, but also on other Roman mandolins, it's one of the typically "Roman" features.
Embergher did have another design with the fingerboard completely clear of the table (like a violin), but not many of those instruments were made. 
(If I'm not mistaken, this can also be found on A and/or F style mandolins. When were the first A/F style mandolins made?) 

A sunk table - as Jim says - is often caused by the tension of too heavy strings, loose braces, ... and also the quality of the wood is important.
Though I've seen mandolins with tables that will "never" sink: the thickness of the wood doesn't allow for it, as it doesn't allow these mandolins to "sound" either. #

----------


## Martin Jonas

> (If I'm not mistaken, this can also be found on A and/or F style mandolins. When were the first A/F style mandolins made?)


The guys up in the "mainstream" forums know this inside out, so I hope I'm right in saying that the raised fretboard was one of the features introduced to Gibson by Lloyd Loar in 1922 for the F5; it wasn't a regular feature in A-styles until much later. The earlier Gibson A and F models, from around 1900 to 1922, had their fretboards glued directly to the top, like on bowlbacks.

Martin

----------


## Embergher

> Originally Posted by  (Embergher @ May 31 2006, 16:26)
> 
> (If I'm not mistaken, this can also be found on A and/or F style mandolins. When were the first A/F style mandolins made?)
> 
> 
> The guys up in the "mainstream" forums know this inside out, so I hope I'm right in saying that the raised fretboard was one of the features introduced to Gibson by Lloyd Loar in 1922 for the F5; it wasn't a regular feature in A-styles until much later. #The earlier Gibson A and F models, from around 1900 to 1922, had their fretboards glued directly to the top, like on bowlbacks.
> 
> Martin


Thanks Martin,
(I really don't know much at all about A/F style mandolins ... just played one maybe once or twice, a long time ago.)
So this means that Embergher didn't copy those. He already made these fingerboards pre-1900.

----------


## Eugene

The archtop mandolin (and guitar) approach a la Gibson to this was rather different, though. Much more like "Legnani" model guitars than Roman mandolins.

----------


## Eugene

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/19th-Antique-Italian-Mandolin-Lion-Head-Carved-RARE_W0QQitemZ7418326392QQcategoryZ10179QQr
> 
> dZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's</a> an interesting item. Pegbox kinda shattered, but if repaired it might be a fun instrument. Love the inlay work.


A similar ornate and even more wrecked mandolino Lombardo by Rocco passed eBay a short while ago. The carving of the pegbox was almost identical.

----------


## Jim Garber

I love this description on an eBay auction for a rather plain Weymann:



> YOU HAVE THE CHANCE TO OWN A RARE MUSICAL PIECE OF HISTORY THIS ANTIQUE MANDOLIN-1800'S-EARLY 1900'S. IT WAS FOUND IN A 100 YEAR OLD HOME. I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF IT AT ALL .ONLY DEFECT IS ONE SMALL HOLE ON BOTTOM OF INSTRUMINT HOPEFULLY .MANDOLIN HAS RARE 8 STRINGS AND ON REAR OF INSRUMENT SAYS (WEYMANN-PHILADELPHIA,USA),TRUELY ONE OF A KIND****  GOOD LUCK.....IN OUR RESEARCH MANDOLINS THAT ARE IN THIS UNRESTORED , UNTOUCHED CONDITION HAVE SOLD AS HIGH AS $13,000.00 AT LIVE AUCTIONS ....GOOD LUCK.....


Esp the "rare 8 strings" and the research that mandolins have sold for $13,000.

Jim

----------


## Embergher

This looks like a very nice Puglisi Roman mandolin. (very similar to an early N°1 Embergher).
I can't see very well if the neck is straight, but if so, it would be a good buy as it will go for less than an Embergher. Very little doubt about the sound quality: these are good!

BTW, #A. Woll has got exactly the same  for sale.

----------


## Jim Garber

Ralf:
How good is this Puglisi as compared to a real Embergher? Also how is this Notari (also from the Woll site)?

Jim

----------


## Embergher

> Ralf:
> How good is this Puglisi as compared to a real Embergher? Also how is this Notari (also from the Woll site)?
> 
> Jim


I haven't played or seen this one of course, but I wouldn't be surprised to find it very similar to an early (pre-1910) Embergher N°1 or so. Possibly a better buy for its price.

The Notari: I wouldn't know, I've never played one. I don't particularly like the looks, but it could be a very good mandolin. Seems as if it's well made.

For who's interested: translation of the description of the seller: _" #... #Very nice concert mandolin, "G. Puglisi Reale & Sons" of 1912, dated and signed. For its age, this mandolin is in very good condition. The auction starts at 300 EUR, don't miss this opportunity ... look at the pictures and judge yourselves ... Guarantee of purchase: as it concernes a used instrument, it is sold in the condition "as is". ... (payment details) .... For any other information, don't hesitate to contact me. ... #"_

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## Martin Jonas

The Roman-style Puglisis are a bit rarer, but their Neapolitan-style instruments appear very frequently indeed on Ebay, in particular on Ebay Germany but also quite often Ebay UK. Plamen, of course, uses a Puglisi as his primary instrument and everybody who has listened to the mp3s he has generously shared knows that he gets a great tone from it.

Martin

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jim and others,

Just to add some more details to your question about the partly hollowed out fingerboard on Roman mandolins I like to answer with what I know about the curved (radius) and hollow fingerboard as seen on Roman mandolins: 
Both fingerboard details were used in the modern Roman mandolin design in the early 1880-ties. Among other features of the modern Roman mandolin its fingerboard design was even patented that early. So, it was known already years before Maestro Embergher applied the hollow fingerboard idea in his mandolin type and model designs (see the attached photo of an modern Roman mandolin of the early 1890ties).


For those who are interested; there is a photo (front and back side) of the gorgeous Embergher mandolin 
mentioned at his topic (click here) by Plami (page one). You can find it at the Embergher internet site if you click with your mouse on this line. It is the first mandolin photo in the Mandolino per concertista e solista web-page, just under the one with Luigi Embergher's signature. 

If you scroll down one more photo you will also see a detail picture of a 1897 Luigi Embergher Mandolin (concert model N.5) with the floating fingerboard free of the soundtable mentioned elswhere in this topic. I just thought it would be nice to mention this to you. For it is always nice to have a more complete picture of Luigi Embegher's legacy. 

Embergher was likely the first to apply the floating fingerboard on the modern _Roman_ mandolin, but not the first to install it on a mandolin. For this was done already around 1825!


Best regards,

Alex

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello again,

There is one thing - seen on some of his soloist mandolin models - Maestro Luigi took credit for; and that is the enlargement of the wood at the very end of fingerboard under the 2nd string. This gives more room for extra frets and enlarges the string's ambitus. A welcome advantage if one, instead of changing position on the highest string, liked it better to stay in position at this hight of the fingerboard. #

Attached is a black & white image of such a fingerboard. It comes from an old sleeve of a Hugo D'Alton record I bought some time ago and displays one of his Embergher 5bis concert mandolins.


Best,

Alex

----------


## Embergher

The partly hollowed fingerboard is - as I said before - just a common Roman feature and it is obviously what Embergher was taught when he went to study lutherie in Rome, so he sure wasn't the first one to apply this, but the early 1890s is not "years before Embergher applied it" .... Embergher already applied this before 1890 - of course.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

Perhaps my writing is not so clear for you as it is to me, but the part of the above sentence _"years before Embergher applied it"_ goes back to the 2 sentences I wrote before that line. To the early 18*80*-ties and to the fact that the fingerboard of the modern Roman mandolin was patented already by that time. 
It is a minor detail, I know, but it is worth noticing. In 10 _years_ developments do take place and things can change quite a bit... 

My mentioning of the time period "the early 18*90*-ties in the sentence between brackets, has only to do with _showing_ the space between a partly hollowed fingerboard and sound table as this is seen on a(n early) modern Roman mandolin that was build in that particular period. 

My only intention with this photo was to create a better understanding about the subject. Especially for those who are interested, but who don´t have a modern Roman mandolin at hand. 


Best,

Alex

----------


## Embergher

Although an early 1880s Embergher is not known (yet), it is not unlikely that it (still) exists. And if so - as Embergher studied in Rome - he would have made them with a partly hollow fingerboard. 
(Stradivari didn't glue the fingerboards of his violins on the table, because that is what he was taught (not) to do ... this seems too logical to be mentioned and it is of course a tradition that goes back many more years, but it is basically the same obvious explanation. Stradivari didn't invent the violin, and Embergher didn't invent the Roman mandolin, they were only superb luthiers who tried to make their instruments to perfection.)

As I have met many players of Roman mandolins who never even noticed that their mandolin has this type of fingerboard, I can imagine that those who are not used to seeing Roman mandolins still don't have a clear view of what we're talking about. 
Maybe this picture of a 1904 Embergher concert mandoliola helps:




(BTW, for those in possession of the book The Embergher Mandolin: clear pictures of two variants of the modified fingerboard can be seen on page 41, one on the cover, and on page 64 another version by Pecoraro with a floating fingerboard and 29 frets under all strings.)

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting soundhole design on this mandolin by Luigi Ruocco. The only other Ruocco I have seen was a DeMeglio clone.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Scott O' Neill has his Calace #26 for sale here. Ad number 19039.

Jim

----------


## mzuch

Can anyone tell me if this 1903 Martin Bowlback is a decent mandolin? I've gotten it into my head to add a clean bowlback to my arsenal.

Thanks,
Michael

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hello Michael,

Just want to say "Hi" and that to me this "Martin" looks like a very good instrument. The "Martins" are among the best american made bowlbacks. I`ll let Eugene, who is the professor when it`s about "Martin" bowlbacks (and mandolin stuff in general) to tell you more about this particular one.

Best,
Plamen

----------


## Jim Garber

Tony Bingham has a piccolo mandolin, scale of 29.3 cm, no name italian in the style of Calace but with an Embergher-style scratchplate.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

It is amazing what "allievo Vinaccia" does to the bidding, as in this case of the headless Salvito.

Jim

----------


## brunello97

Jim,
More like Allievo Ichabod Crane. Do you see a split down the middle, or might this top have been made in two pieces?
Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

More fascinating is what the seller might have thought he could get: it's $152 plus $120 shipping (!!) and it's still not reached the reserve.

Martin

----------


## Eugene

I'm sorry. I missed this chat until it was too late. Did you go after the style 4 Martin, Michael? It looked to be very healthy.

----------


## mzuch

Hi Eugene. I bid on it, but was sniped in the last 30 seconds of the auction. So I'm still in the market, if anyone's got one to sell.

Michael

----------


## Jim Garber

Check out this 1940's (according to the seller) mandolin by G. Amato sold by Emile Grimshaw & Son. Very interesting design, semi-flat bowlback.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Oh, I like that one. It reminds me a bit of the "onion" shape Herwiga models, but with a much more graceful curve to it. That neck joint in particular is lovely. The neck looks quite long and I wonder whether this might actually be a mandola.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> Hi Eugene. I bid on it, but was sniped in the last 30 seconds of the auction. So I'm still in the market, if anyone's got one to sell.
> 
> Michael


Michael:
Here is a 1913 lower-end Martin, style 0?

Jim

----------


## guitharsis

Love that G.Amato. I probably would've bid on that one. Went for a very reasonable price too. Oh well, wasn't meant to be.

Doreen

----------


## Jim Garber

> Oh, I like that one. It reminds me a bit of the "onion" shape Herwiga models, but with a much more graceful curve to it. That neck joint in particular is lovely. The neck looks quite long and I wonder whether this might actually be a mandola.
> 
> Martin


I see you inquired... 352mm (almost 14 inches) sort of a long scale mandolin or a short scaled mandoliola, right?

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> Love that G.Amato. I probably would've bid on that one. Went for a very reasonable price too. Oh well, wasn't meant to be.
> 
> Doreen


I must have deleted my posting, Doreen. This auction has not ended as yet. Still some time, tho the high bid has creeped up some. From the pics it looks like it is in good condition, so I imagine that it will certainly get over £200 or so.

Jim

----------


## guitharsis

Jim,
You didn't delete your posting, I just misread it thinking that the bidding had already ended. That would've been a good price for that one  
Doreen

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I see you inquired... 352mm (almost 14 inches) sort of a long scale mandolin or a short scaled mandoliola, right?


Yes, an odd scale for an Italian mandolin. Some of it will be that the bridge is a bit far back (just behind the cant), so I think it's actually Gibson scale -- by the 1940s (if the seller is right on that one), even the Italians will have been influenced by that.

Anyway, I was only asking out of idle curiosity -- I have too many mandolins for my own good, especially with the Ferrari I've just picked up.

Martin

----------


## guitharsis

Might have given it a try if I knew for sure you weren't interested, Martin. It looks like it sold for a very decent price. I only have three bowlbacks now, the Stridente, the deMeglio and the Ceccherini. I donated my Marcelli to an auction to raise money for my high school class reunion.

----------


## Embergher

Two type-B Emberghers on Ebay today ... one maple and one rosewood. Both are from the same period. 
One has been restored, the other one could use ... "some care"

----------


## Embergher

What a succesful thread this is ... my previous post was reply N° 2300! ... have I won something? #

----------


## Jim Garber

> Two type-B Emberghers on Ebay today ... one maple and one rosewood. Both are from the same period. 
> One has been restored, the other one could use ... "some care"


Yes, they seem to be coming out of the woodwork, as we say. 

Horrible pics on that maple one, sad to say. it is hard to tell what, if anything is going on with it.

My guess is also 1912. You would think that the seller would have mentioned that in his posting.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> What a succesful thread this is ... my previous post was reply N° 2300! ... have I won something?


Yes, you win the Embergher Via Belsianna tee shirt.

Jim

----------


## Embergher

> Originally Posted by  (Embergher @ June 26 2006, 16:49)
> 
> What a succesful thread this is ... my previous post was reply N° 2300! ... have I won something? #
> 
> 
> Yes, you win the Embergher Via Belsianna tee shirt.
> 
> Jim


I'm never lucky, am I .... I already have a dozen of those #

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Jim, perhaps we can ask Scott to supply these T-shirts?

Cheers,

Alex

----------


## Embergher

With those instruments that should have been a Pecoraro T-shirt

----------


## Jim Garber

Now, boys.... don't fight! I will take one of each!

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

Say... shouldn't those T-shirts come with *V*-necks?

----------


## Eugene

Consider this your official reprimand for wanton punning.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Say... shouldn't those T-shirts come with *V*-necks?


Perfect, Victor!!!!  

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "Consider this your official reprimand for wanton punning."


Couldn't resist, Eugene...

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hello,

I was wondering where to post this. They are not for sale and most probably they are not "of note", but I thought for you it might be interesting. I was on a business trip last week in a small town in the south part of the country and there was a restaurant hall that was decorated this way. I rather find it tasteless, I hate to see mandos hanging on the wall, but anyway it`s indicative of the popularity of the mandolin all over the country in the begining of the XX century.

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

...

----------


## Arto

Well, maybe it´s not so good taste to hang instruments on the wall instead of playing them, but IMHO I always like to see instruments around....

The bowed instrument is gadulka, isn´t it? What is the name of that saz-type instrument in Bulgaria?

greetings, Arto

----------


## Jim Garber

I thought that the bowed instrument was a Greek lyra. I think a gadulka has sympathetic strings, right?

The other is a saz, precursor to the bouzouki.

Jim

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Yes, no doubt about the saz. And that`s how it`s called in Bulgaria. It`s just saz. There was a topic somewhere on the board about turkish and greek saz. But I cannot find it. Jim is better in finding old topics. 
About the other instrument... I have never heard before about greek lyra, so I thought it was a gadulka. I really cannot make a difference, so it might be also a greek lyra having in mind the nearness of the greek border.

----------


## Arto

Thanks, Plamen. I was just interested if saz had some other name in Bulgaria. I think the thread you mentioned was in the CBOM forum - I learned a lot about different laoutos/lavtas, for example. The interested thing is that there is a very typically saz-looking instrument in Crete, and it´s called boulgari. If I remember right, it has 6 strings (3 courses) and one of the posters claimed it to be typically Cretan, a style of its own. I wonder if the name has something to do with Bulgaria, or is it just a coincidence?

I suppose the bowed instrument may very well be called gadulka in your country, sympathetic string string or not. Generally lyra is often mentioned together with Crete, but it may well have the same name in the mainland Greece, too. To my eyes, the Turkish kemence (klasik kemence, of classical Turkish music, not the Karadeniz/Black Sea kemence, which is a folk instrument and somewhat different) is very similar to the Greek lyra. Considering the often painful history of the nations in that area, I would like to respect the different views and nomenclatures of the instruments and their history.

I have the deepest respect for Eastern Mediterranean music cultures and am a great fan of Turkish classical music. I think people like Ross Daly and Greek-Turkish ensembles like Bosporos have done a great job about bringing the common musical heritage to front, despite the bitter history.

greetings, Arto

----------


## Arto

Well, not a bowlback, but is somebody interested in <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Italian-Violin-4-4-Ceccherini-1925_W0QQitemZ220000999729QQihZ012QQcategoryZ38108  QQ
ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Umberto Ceccherini violin?</a> I didn´t know he made those, too.

----------


## Martin Jonas

And dated 1925? Although Ceccherini didn't date his mandolins, the ones I've seen are all from before 1910 judging from the style of decorations. Maybe a son, or maybe the name was sold to promote unrelated trade violins.

Martin

----------


## mandoisland

The italian world cup mandolin

This mandolin was played by a fan of the Italian soccer team, the picture was published by the AFP news agency (I just cut out the mandolin, because that is what is interesting for this thread).

I wonder if those mandolins are sold anywhere in Italy? Looks a little like a "do it yourself" project, but with some professional docoration. Unfortunately one does not see all the details of the construction of this instrument. I can see 5 strings - obviously nylon strings, looks like all the same, I wonder how this mandolin is tuned.

Anyway - I am not sure if this kind of instrument ist the right one for soccer matches, I am not sure if it can be head at all.

What do you think?

----------


## Embergher

> " ... I am not sure if this kind of instrument is the right one for soccer matches, I am not sure if it can be heard at all ... #What do you think? "


To me it looks like this is the "perfect" kind of mandolin for soccer matches. It can't be heard (no mandolin would), but in this case I'm sure it is enough that it "slightly resembles" a mandolin. (Who would actually risk to bring a real mandolin?) This one is fine though ... I wouldn't be surprised if it got smashed at the end of the game ... just perfect for the cultural level of the happening. # # # 


(I probably risk being shot by soccer enthusiasts now # #)

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## Jim Garber

Strange... I wonder if that is playable at all. No frets and nylon strings. Sort of mini-lute-like but more of a prop, perhaps. What does it have to do with soccer?

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MANDOLIN-VERY-VINTAGE-SUPERB-INSTRUMENT_W0QQitemZ110002497845QQihZ001QQcategory  Z10179QQrdZ
1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here</a> is a Carlo Loveri with very fuzzy photos and a mistranscribed label. Looks like one of his higher-grade instruments, though.

Also a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ANTIQUE-F-FERRARI-CO-INLAID-MANDOLIN-CASE-SPARES_W0QQitemZ160002821072QQihZ006QQcategoryZ1
0179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Ferrari</a>, but the photos again aren't good enough to gauge condition.

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Waldzitter-Mandoline-Wurzelholz-Perlmut-Schmetterling_W0QQitemZ330001526302QQihZ014QQcateg
oryZ21591QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">This</a> is one of those French flatbacks with funky not-quite-f-holes. Looks very nice wood, and a lovely wooden case.

Martin

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## Arto

"Two type-B Emberghers on Ebay today ... one maple and one rosewood. Both are from the same period. 
One has been restored, the other one could use ... "some care" 

I wonder why the rosewood one was not sold. Looks very clean after restoration. TOO much restoration? Something suspect? Simply too high price for model B Embergher?

----------


## Arto

Martin style 7 at Mandolin Brothers. One of 31 or so made...

----------


## Embergher

> "Two type-B Emberghers on Ebay today ... one maple and one rosewood. Both are from the same period. 
> One has been restored, the other one could use ... "some care" 
> 
> I wonder why the rosewood one was not sold. Looks very clean after restoration. TOO much restoration? Something suspect? Simply too high price for model B Embergher?


Maybe it's not easy to get that kind of starting bid. If it would have started at half of that amount, it might have gone up to this price ... At this rate people certainly don't make bids in advance. I can imagine that if there already were 5 or 10 bidders, it would give a certain "confidence" ... "others are prepared to pay this price, so it's probably worth it ... " 

Sometimes this can also result in high prices that are being paid for instruments which are worth virtually nothing ...

----------


## Eugene

> Martin style 7 at Mandolin Brothers. One of 31 or so made...


Yummy!




> ...That tiny aberration on the back of the headstock is a small, now repaired crack, just above the diamond dart, between the two floral engraved silvery plates. This has been glued up by our shop and the instrument set-up to perfection. This is one of the most beautiful and opulent Neapolitan mandolins as has ever been seen under the C F Martin banner. The fact that, in the short window in which this model was made, between 1899 and 1917, only thirty one of this Style 7 model Martin were made, and that, except for that one relatively minor flaw, it would otherwise be in solidly excellent condition, makes this a potato-bug to be savored. $5,670 or at our cash discount price, $5,500.


...but "potato-bug!?"

----------


## Jim Garber

Mighty expensive "potato bug" eh?

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Potato bug? I'm more inclined to recall Poe: ounce for ounce, at $5500 I figure it ought to be considered a gold bug. If only Bach had honored our favorite instrument with a series of GoldBug Variations . . .

----------


## brunello97

Wow, Bob, from Baltimore to Eisenach to the Catskills in one quip...

At least they didn't call it a "'tater bug". That really makes my skin crawl.

----------


## Jim Garber

A nice-looking, early 1800s(?) Roman mandolin by Giovanni DeSantis at il Liutaio Magico site. Interesting case also.

Jim

----------


## Embergher

> A nice-looking, early 1800s(?) Roman mandolin by Giovanni DeSantis at il Liutaio Magico site. Interesting case also.
> 
> Jim


Very nice, but it looks more like a "late" 1800s mandolin ... I'd say 1885-1890.

----------


## Jim Garber

Ralf:
 Would it have had violin pegs as original tuners that late in the century? I know the luthier says that those are not original.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

DiegoMoon posted a link in the vintage section about this <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/High-Grade-Vintage-Mandolin-MOP-and-Silver-Inlays-Nice_W0QQitemZ320004641238QQihZ011QQcate
&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;goryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem  " target="_blank">Bruno bowlback.</a> Rather eye-catching.

----------


## Embergher

> Ralf:
>  Would it have had violin pegs as original tuners that late in the century? I know the luthier says that those are not original.
> 
> Jim


That is perfectly possible, I've seen several Roman mandolins of that period with pegs, often with a metal ending to avoid damage from the steel strings. 
(The pegs of this instrument are not original though, they've been replaced by new ones).

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

A wonderful 1914 Raffaele Calace has come up for sale!

Click here <a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Alte-Italienische-Mandoline-von-Raffaele-Calace-An-1914_W0QQitemZ170004224899QQihZ007QQcat
egoryZ21591QQssPageNameZWD2VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">to view it at eBay. </a>


Best, 

Alex

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## Jim Garber

Alex, which model is that? A 16bis?

Also, was that bridge added later or is it original? It looks unusual.

Jim

----------


## brunello97

I like the Modernismo styling of the tailpiece cover. Very contemporary (ca.1914)

Mick

----------


## Embergher

I never understood the purpose of those _"nostrils"_ in the table, above the bridge. 
They don't add to the beauty of the instrument, so they should have another advantage ...

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jim,

This 1914 Raffaele Calace mandolin is a *Tipo N. 13*. It is looks indeed like Calace´s Tipo 16bis but - if the two are compared - there are some small distinctions that make them different. 

Here are a few of the characteristics of Calace´s *Tipo N. 13*: This type has a palisander veneered head and round neck, a bowl that is build up with 25 plain palisander ribs and a sleeveguard with a (turn of the century) Jugendstil design.
It was offered either with a 19-fret fingerboard or with a 24-fret fingerboard with ivorite position markers. #

The main outer differences with the Calace *Tipo 16 bis* is that this type was designed to have a bowl made of 33 channalled palisander ribs, an ebony veneered head and round neck, a floral figured sleeveguard and a Mother of Pearl edged soundboard. The Mother of Pearl flower design on the head and pickguard is large and very eye-catching. # 
The 16.bis is made with the standard 24-fret ebony fingerboard with Mother of Pearl position markers. #


Both mandolins have the so called ´straight side´ soundhole and the two little holes above the bridge.


Best regards,

Alex.

PS. _Sorry Jim, I forgot to mention that the bridge on the 1914 Calace mandolin here for sale is indeed NOT original. That is however the only thing wrong. For the rest ist is well worth buying if one looks for an early and good Calace mandolin._

----------


## trebleclef528

Ebay eat your heart out!
I thought it might be of interest for you to see the following results of a Sotherby's (Auctioneers London) Musical instrument auction from 2003.Note the price acheived for the Embergher (the last one shown) £24,000
I'll bet the owner was somewhat happy aspecially as the estimate was between £4000 and £6000
Ah! we can only dream!

PASQUALE VINACCIA (NAPLES, B 1806; D 1885) A NEAPOLITAN MANDOLIN NAPLES, 1929 total length 23in., 58.4cm. the body of maple with fluted and purfled ribs and shaped capping strip, the table with oval sound hole and inlaid with tortoiseshell scrollwork, tortoiseshell scratch plate, the neck overlaid with tortoiseshell with bone and ebony stringing, the head similar, the tortoiseshell fingerboard edged with mother of pearl, shaped boxwood reverse pegs labelled Napoli, Anno 1829, Pasquale Vinaccia, Strada di Chiaja No 180 Estimate - 2500-3500 

Actual Price acheived £3840 

A MILANESE MANDOLIN MILAN, FIRST HALF OF THE 19TH CENTURY total length 22.5in., 57.2cm. the body with thirteen beech ribs alternately ebonised and divided by purfling, the capping strip also ebonised, the kingwood table with oval sound hole and extensively inlaid overall with scrolling foliage and a putto in boxwood and ivory, the neck and swan-headed pegbox ebonised, the latter terminating in a square finial, the scalloped fingerboard extending over the sound hole inset with twenty brass frets, tie bridge, six single courses of strings Provenance: Previously sold in these Rooms on 21st June 1927 for 2/10/- Formerly in the Collection of C. van Raalte, Brownsea Castle, Poole, Dorset Estimate - 2000-3000
No Details of Price acheived

LUIGI EMBERGHER (B ARPINO, 1856, D ROME, 1943) A NEAPOLITAN MANDOLIN ROME, 1921 total length 23.25in., 59.1 cm. the body of twenty rosewood ribs, the table edged with multiple purfling, the sound hole edged with mother of pearl segments set in black mastic, ebony scratch plate, the fingerboard with nineteen frets under the G string and twenty five under the E string, the head with rear-facing machine head pegs, in canvas cover labelled N.2122, 1921, Luigi Emberher, and stamped L. Embergher Roma on the head Quantity: 2 Estimate - 800-1000 
Actual sale Price £3360 


WORKSHOP OF LUIGI EMBERGHER (B ARPINO, 1856; D ROME, 1943)) A ROMAN MANDOLIN ROME, CIRCA 1895 total length 23.375in., 59.4cm. string length 12 15/16in., 32.8cm. the body, neck and head overlaid with tortoiseshell with extensive ivory and mother-of-pearl scrolling inlay, the capping strip inlaid with dragons, the tortoiseshell scratchplate inlaid with putti, the machine heads with rear-facing ivory pegs, the fingerboard extending over the soundhole with twenty- nine metal frets labelled Aloisi Embergher, Fecit in Rome MDCCCLXXXXV Via dei Greci No. 21 Quantity: 2 Note: in case Estimate - 4000-6000 #
Sale price acheived £24000

----------


## Jim Garber

Ian:
What was the date for this auction? Were there photos of these mandolins in the catalogues?

I think that £24000 one was the Artistic model 8 that William Petit still has on his site. It is also pictured on pp. 74-77 in Ralf and Barry's book.

I am more curious about the other Embergher. It sounds like it is a number 1 or 2 orchestra but the price seems way high for that. Do you have any pics of these?

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Not actually a bowlback, but close enough: this anonymous boatback has a very funky tuner arrangement. #In fact, I can't quite make out how it works, as the tuning pegs are arranged as for a slotted headstock, but there are no slots. #Locks like there are string poles sticking out at the side of the headstock, sort of like a normal tuner arrangement turned on its side. #I can't see any rationale for this, but if it works...

While we're at curiosities, how about this electric bowlback. #To be fair to the luthier, although I think this was a rock-bottom instrument to start with, the pickup was probably a retrofit (and a particularly ill-advised one). #What's this about a "neck which is adjustable by a single screw / shim arrangement"? #Do they mean a truss rod?

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

Might I humbly suggest that we impose a mutual moratorium on instruments that none of us can actually _afford_?  Personally, I have found it most salubrious to stop looking at realtors' listings of _Manhattan apartments_.  

Some days I just CRAVE a listing of a decent, playable, $200 Washburn... 

*sigh*

----------


## Jim Garber

That boatback is interesting, as you say, mostly for the tuners and the boatback design. Actually I am amazied that there are so few of these boatbacks in the lower end instruments. I would think that design would give you basically the same sound as a bowlback but manufactured more simply.

I always find it entertaining to read:


> oh i nearly forgot it has eight strings but one is missing...


Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> Some days I just CRAVE a listing of a decent, playable, $200 Washburn...


Like this one?

Jim

----------


## Embergher

> I am more curious about the other Embergher. It sounds like it is a number 1 or 2 orchestra but the price seems way high for that. Do you have any pics of these?


The description is typical for a N°1 orchestral model.
I don't think there were pictures on the website/in the catalogue.




> ... LUIGI EMBERGHER (B ARPINO, 1856, D ROME, 1943) A *NEAPOLITAN* MANDOLIN ROME ...
> WORKSHOP OF LUIGI EMBERGHER (B ARPINO, 1856; D ROME, 1943)) A *ROMAN* MANDOLIN ROME, *CIRCA 1895 ... Fecit in Rome MDCCCLXXXXV*...


At Sotheby's they don't seem to know the difference between a Roman and a Neapolitan mandolin ... they don't even seem to be quite sure about Roman numbers #

----------


## Jim Garber

Ralf:
Did you handle that Model 8? Was it actually playable?

Jim

----------


## Embergher

> Ralf:
> Did you handle that Model 8? Was it actually playable?
> 
> Jim


Oh yes, it's a wonderful mandolin, also sound wise.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> At Sotheby's they don't seem to know the difference between a Roman and a Neapolitan mandolin ... they don't even seem to be quite sure about Roman numbers #


Also rather curious that the No. 1 (?) was attributed to Luigi outright, but the No. 8 is listed only as "Workshop of ...". That's possibly because Sotheby's weren't sure whether "Aloisi" was the same as "Luigi" (in fact, I'm not sure either but assume it's just a variant rather than, say, a brother or son). That didn't stop them from attributing the Pasquale Vinaccia to the maestro himself, notwithstanding the fact that he died 44 years before that mandolin was made.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

Isn't that what's called an _opus posthumous_? Or, some unrepentant neoclassical composer (who shall remain unnamed at present) could justly claim that some of his finest music was in fact composed _WELL before he was BORN_!  

As for any alleged *Aloysius* Vinaccia, I must plead ignorance. While rummaging once through one of New York's vintage sheet-music outlets, I came across a _Tango y Malagueña_ by *Wolpe*. _"Wolpe"_, I mumbled in astonishment, "as in _Stefan_ Wolpe?", celebrated New Yorker emigre, whose gnarled harmonies so frightfully clashed with his radically egalitarian socialism, his Man on the Street ideals, etc. I was baffled.

Nope. It was a certain _Sam_ Wolpe no relation, obviously, familial or musical. So, why not, there could well be a Sam Vinaccia as well, building instruments well after his death, with funky Roman numerals and all.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> As for any alleged *Aloysius* Vinaccia, I must plead ignorance.


Aloisi Embergher, actually...

Unlike the populous Vinaccia clan, where one Aloisi more or less might not particularly register or surprise, I'm not aware of any relations of Maestro Luigi trying his hand at lutherie.

Martin

----------


## trebleclef528

Re The Sotherby's auction.
I made a mistake the auction was in November 2004 not 2003.

The item numbers on the auction listings are 180, 212, 230 and there are a couple of photo's.

the can find the web page here

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

Here is a mixture of my thoughts and what I have found with regard to the family name ´Embergher´ and Luigi´s use of ´Aloisi´ as his first name on his mandolin label. Just see it as a consideration on the matter:



Aloisi Embergher...


The name Aloisi is indeed similar to Luigi and was often chosen in the northern provinces of Italy. Before the unification of Italy in 1861 and before Rome became the capital of United Italy in 1871 this must have been a normal choice for a name there. 
In Austria the name Alois (or Aloisi, Aloisy) was even more usual and because the north of Italy had since long been under Austrian occupation, it is perhaps not so strange that Embergher - concerned with traditon as he was - had decided to use this old first name on the label of this particular artistic mandolin made in 1895. Perhaps it was to underline his Austrian origin? 

This is not only a simple speculation, for roots of older descendants with the family name ´Embergher´ 
or ´Emberger´ (a spelling that sometimes is found. Also in stamp imprints on instruments made by Embergher himself) are also traceable and found in the village of Tirolo in the north of Italy, well back into the 18th century. 
It can be therefore be assumed that this rather unusual Italian surname has its origin in the North of Italy and most probably even in Austria where it is commonly found, even today.

It is of course possible that Luigi just liked to present himself as Aloisi Embergher. In a fashionable manner so to speak. But couldn´t it have been so that he wrote the Austrian variant of his name with another more special purpose in mind? 
An interesting fact here is that he, within two years later, in 1897 won a Gold medal at an Exhibition for new inventions on musical instruments in Vienna (Austria). 
Could this superb 1895 Embergher _Mandolino artistico_  (Model N. 8) have been part of Aloisi´s contribution to this Viennese exhibition? 

It sure would have been a smart move for an Italian mandolin maker from Rome/Arpino in those days! Especially when the Austrian pride in those days over their past is taken in account.


Anyway, a clever man this Aloisi...


Best, 

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

I just discovered this site of the Handel Haus in Halle, Germany.

Interesting plucked instrument exhibit.

Has anyone visited this museum?

Of interest:
Mandore by Johann Andreas Kämbl, Munich, after 1738 (MS-167)
Mandolino by Domenico Pistachi, Rome, 1744 (MS-171)
Mandolin by Genuaro Vinaccia, Naples, 1782 (MS-138)
Mandolone by Antonius Vinaccia, Naples, 1787 (MS-141)
Treatise for mandolin by B. Bortolazzi, Leipzig, 1804

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim,

I know it because of my research on plucked instruments (especially interesting is the Roman Mandolino by Domenico Pistachi). 
It is a small but very nice museum and from the website I gather that they have re-decorated etc. the Händel House. 

If you are in Europe, have time and like Musical Instrument Museums, this small one is well worth visiting!


Cheers,

Alex

----------


## grandmainger

I know nothing about bowlbacks, but this ebay.co.uk/item=260008385841 looks like it has a curly top (koa?) which is something I've not seen before... 
Germain
(PS:it's not my auction!)

----------


## Martin Jonas

I think this comes under the reptile dentistry branch of lutherie: that looks like a crude replacement top, possibly of industrial plywood, with what looks disconcertingly like rivets or nails around the edge. 

Martin

----------


## brunello97

> I think this comes under the reptile dentistry branch of lutherie: that looks like #a crude replacement top, possibly of industrial plywood, with what looks disconcertingly like rivets or nails around the edge. #
> 
> Martin


Yes, Martin, but it has a low opening bid.....

Mick

----------


## Embergher

> Originally Posted by  (Embergher @ June 26 2006, 16:42)
> 
> Two type-B Emberghers on Ebay today ... one maple and one rosewood. Both are from the same period. 
> One has been restored, the other one could use ... "some care"
> 
> 
> Yes, they seem to be coming out of the woodwork, as we say.
> Horrible pics on that maple one, sad to say. it is hard to tell what, if anything is going on with it.
> My guess is also 1912. You would think that the seller would have mentioned that in his posting.
> Jim


It looks like the maple one has been relisted ... at a much lower starting bid and no reserve

----------


## Jim Garber

> It looks like the maple one has been relisted ... at a much lower starting bid and no reserve


Whew! I almost thought that I would have had to bid on this one. As of early this morning it was still down to 223 but crept upo steadily to end at 1160. Hard to say what the condition is outside of the replaced tuners. My experience is that photos are very deceptive and these are barely in focus. The seller looks like some sort of car dealer with little feedback and she only answered me in German. I asked her for cost of shipping to the USA and she said she did not know. Not too heartening.

still... it is an Embergher. Not a bad deal for the buyer if it doesn't need serious work.

Jim

----------


## dave17120

Sorry, I know its not a bowlback, but I thought it deserved a place in mandolins of note because of its 'coin slots' !?!
Dave (just recovered from laughing)<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ANTIQUE-BUSKERS-8-STRING-FLAT-BACK-MANDOLIN_W0QQitemZ170006058153QQihZ007QQcategoryZ1  0179Q
QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here on ebay</a>

----------


## glauber

I posted a thread on "looking for information about mandolins" about a nicely finished John Brandt that i found in a friend's house. I posted lots of photographs there, for you to see. If you have any information about this mandolin or places that could take it for repairs and setup in the Chicago area, please follow up in that thread. 

Thanks!

glauber

----------


## Bob A

An interesting <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Mandoline-Mandolin-CORTEZ-M20-VIOLIN-Mandola-NAPOLI_W0QQitemZ130005986516QQihZ003QQcategor
yZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">fluted bowlback mandola</a> up for auction in Germany. Made by that famous Neapolitan, Cortez, no doubt to while away the time on those long voyages of conquest. A little stiff at 620 Euros for openers, but if you need one of these, you won't quibble over the price. Anyway, the rosewood is nice.

----------


## Martin Jonas

You may remember this auction from a couple of months ago, which was also a Cortez mandola. The seller, Franksmusic, said that these were made by Suzuki for a German distributor. Mind you, the winning bid for Frank's was very slightly less than the starting bid of this one, but the other one was clearly a much classier example. I was tempting by the other one, but not this one.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/neopolitan-mandolin-circa-1896_W0QQitemZ220009510002QQihZ012QQcategoryZ10179  QQrdZ1QQcmdZVi
ewItem" target="_blank">This</a> Giovanni Palladino looks very very much like my single-top Ceccherini. Slightly different inlay in the scratchplate, but the headstock shape and fret markers are like on the Ceccherini, and unlike the generic de Meglio clone. The photos don't show whether it has the de Meglio side vents. The Ceccherini doesn't, and I suspect this one doesn't either. As Ceccherini didn't date his mandolins, it's interesting to see the year 1896 on this one.

Looks in good shape, and could be a great bargain if it stays low.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Somehow your link does not work. Try this one.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Thanks, Jim, I keep forgetting that Ebay links generated through a search listing are now non-permanent. Cutting and pasting them used to work, but doesn't anymore.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Calace at Boetzkes. They do not say the date but price seems pretty reasonable... maybe too much so. Has anyone played this one? 

I am not looking...

Jim

----------


## Bob A

He's had that Calace on his site for a few years now. I was thinking about it when the euro was about $0.90. I've been tempted by his older Gelas for nearly as long, but I've got way too much depth already, with instruments languishing for my facile fingers, and moaning unrequited. (Can I say that here?)

----------


## Jim Garber

Carlo M posted on the classifieds one of his Dolphin mandolins. He is asking 3000 for it. 

It looks rather nice. Has anyone in the world that we know played one of his instruments?

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

More to the point: what's that Travellite-style hard foam case in the photos. Looks like a bowlback case branded "Dogal Strings".

Martin

----------


## brunello97

> More to the point: what's that Travellite-style hard foam case in the photos. Looks like a bowlback case branded "Dogal Strings".
> 
> Martin


"Product Placement" is all the rage now, Martin. Didn't you notice the strategically placed cans of Coke and Marlboro packages in Aran's pictures from the Calace workshop? And of course the Illy Coffee can in Linda's pictures from the Pandini shop? 

It can be subliminal. Nonetheless, whenever I pick up my mandolin I get a sudden craving for.......

Mick

----------


## Linda Binder

Oh, c'mon Mick. Illy is hardly paying me anything for putting that can in the pictures. Whoops...I just spilled my coffee. 
--Linda

----------


## Jim Garber

> Carlo M posted on the classifieds one of his Dolphin mandolins. He is asking 3000 for it.


I just realized that the scale is 354mm which is close to the Gibson scale -- duh! Carlo does mention that in his ad.

Jim

----------


## Linda Binder

I just looked at the Dolphin picture. That does look like a nicely constructed light case. It looks to be more sturdy than the soft bowlback case I have that originally came with my Pandini. The built in hygrometer is a nice touch. So...Dogal is branching out?
--Linda

----------


## Jim Garber

I know -- not a bowlback or even a mandolin -- but check out a viola by Domenico Cerrone.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

"It viola filler does not damn obvious and is in perfect conditions". 

Seller must have mistaken his babelfish for a sardine.

----------


## dfxlr

> I know -- not a bowlback or even a mandolin -- but check out a viola by Domenico Cerrone.
> 
> Jim


ehhh, they have a slight "bowlback"...

----------


## brunello97

"Not to make offered if good auction to all is not sure to carry to finish to the transaction thanks"

I wonder if all along when I speak Italian I sound like this....

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

1906 Martin Style 2 (as far as I can determine).

Jim

----------


## Duc Vu

If this Vega Pettine does not go over my budget, I'll join the bowlhead ranks!

----------


## Martin Jonas

I don't think the seller quite knows what he has there, but I have a sneaking suspicion this one might go fairly high. Good luck, though, if it's in decent condition (and it looks ok), I'm sure it'll be wonderful.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

That one is strange. It looks different than any other Pettines I have seen. If the serial number is the same as the cylinder backs it would date it rather late for a bowlback to 1918.

This one will need some work. One good sign is that the seller says no cracks. There is veneer missing from the front and the back of the peghead. 

Most Pettines have the fleur-de-lis inlays and different pickguards. Here is one from Mandolin Brothers some time ago.

I wonder if it has had a larger pickguard put on or else was ordered with that larger one. 

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

On the other hand, the photo I have of GP has him holding his mandolin with that side-style pickguard.

Jim

----------


## Duc Vu

Thanks Jim and Martin for your advice.
Another Pettine pictured here.
Duc.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Thanks Jim and Martin for your advice.
> Another Pettine pictured here.
> Duc.


Yes, that one looks like it had the fretboard lopped off for some odd reason. I emailed that owner years ago and I think he wants serious bucks for that one.

Jim

----------


## RSW

The Mandolin Brother's "Pettine Vega" was not in great condition (beware of photos and even the layman's not so keen understanding of condition). I nearly bought it so that I could continue to keep my "Pettine" under retirement while it is still fresh and have another to actually play. The one up for grabs on Ebay is strange...I'm tempted to bid as well but have some reservations about the condition and even the overall quality. The decoration on the pick guard is not typical at all. A pity that one can't handle the instrument prior to these auctions.

----------


## Jim Garber

> The one up for grabs on Ebay is strange...I'm tempted to bid as well but have some reservations about the condition and even the overall quality.


Could this possibly have been some Franken-Vega? Maybe a style 3 with a Pettine gear plate added? Then again it does have the extended fretboard. Very curious...

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> If this Vega Pettine does not go over my budget, I'll join the bowlhead ranks!


It is fast approaching the $500 mark. If any indication of the last 6 bowlbacks I have had repaired to playing condition, I would say add $200-300 to the total cost to make this one playable. I say it reaches around $600 considering the attention it is getting.

Sorry I won't be around for the excitement. 

Jim

----------


## etbarbaric

Hey Richard,

Good to see your keyclicks.




> The decoration on the pick guard is not typical at all.


Perhaps not typical for what we know of the Petine Special, but as I'm sure you know, the star *is* completely typical for Vega. #The star often shows up as a peghead inlay on later cylinder-back mandolins/mandolas, etc. #It does look a bit odd in this configuration.

Best,

Eric

----------


## RSW

I've seen 6 Pettine Specials, this particular one is the oddity as far as the decoration goes. It also seems to have some differences in the bowl (number of ribs, for example). The only thing identifying this Vega as a "Pettine Special" is the engraved plate on the back of the peg box. Regardless, if the top is sound (not much sinkage), the neck straight, it should be a decent mandolin once set up. Hopefully the future owner will keep it strung ultra-light and not replace the frets with modern style T-Frets (way to thick). I might still make a go for it but this is not really a good moment to be increasing the number of instruments around here.

By the way... I'm planning a trip to the southwest for sometime in mid-late November, assuming we still have air travel for the general public.

----------


## etbarbaric

That's great news Richard. #The fresh chiles will be roasted and we'll have adobes to lay... maybe I'll even get a mandolin out and learn to play again... :-) #

Keep in touch as your plans develop.

Best,

Eric

----------


## Duc Vu

I got that Pettine, the bowl is in good shape, but the top is badly sunken with a collapsed cant. I think it will cost a bundle to have it repaired, so I'll try to return it. I'll post some pics later.

----------


## Martin Jonas

That's a pity. I've had another look at the photos, and there is no way that could have been predicted from them. So, you may be on decent grounds for returning it. On the other hand, if you don't manage, sometimes a sunken top on bowlbacks is simply a matter of a loose brace that can be persuaded back into shape at relative little cost by someone who knows what they're doing. I've seen a quote for this that worked out as rather less than fixing a top crack. As these tops are very thin, and have an induced curvature anyway, a sunken top is less terminal than with a carved top.

Martin

----------


## Duc Vu

Here is the Pettine: Front

----------


## Duc Vu

Inlay on fretboard

----------


## Duc Vu

Pickguard

----------


## Duc Vu

Peghead. There are two strips of wood inlay running across the tuner posts. Zero fret.

----------


## Duc Vu

Neck seems straight, curiously the end of the fretboard dips into the soundhole.

----------


## Duc Vu

Straight line from frets top to bridge.It came with rusted out steel strings, I had to put in some GHS ultra lights and try it out. Sweet sounding with nice feel on neck. Frets are worn, still playable.

----------


## Duc Vu

Nice flame on neck.

----------


## Duc Vu

Now the bad: Bridge was glued down, intonation is off. Top is sunken.

----------


## Duc Vu

I felt the braces with my finger, they do not feel loose.

----------


## Duc Vu

So, what does everybody think? Is it salvageable? Thanks in advance.

----------


## RSW

Salvageable yes, but costly... send it Dan Larson, he is a Vega expert. Welcome to the world of unsuspecting and trusting buyers!

----------


## Martin Jonas

I had envisaged it sunken in a different direction. Nevertheless, I would think that the braces must be either broken or detached at their ends: I can't imagine the actual braces would dip like this. Get a dental mirror and look at the braces. Chances are you'll find there's a gap between the sound board and the end of the braces on both sides.

If it's the braces, the way to fix would be to thoroughly humidify the instrument, then slowly coax the braces back up to the wood over a period of days before glueing them. That's a professional repair, of course.

Dipping of an unsupported fretboard extension is relatively normal, and it the reason why Embergher eventually changed toward an extension that is supported on the far side of the soundhole.

I'm not surprised that the intonation is off: that bridge looks to be sitting just before the (remnants of the) cant whereas the Vega bridge is meant to sit behind. If you can get it loose, it probably needs to move back a bit. Let's hope the glue is reversable and that the bridge base hasn't been sanded down too far for its proper position.

All in all, I'd agree with Richard: salveagable but not cheap and needing the right repair person.

Beautiful instrument, though, if you can get it back in shape!

Martin

----------


## Duc Vu

Thanks for the suggestions. Richard, is it Dan Larson in Duluth?

----------


## Martin Jonas

Not so sure about "of note", but I was interested in this listing, as it's the first sign that the Vietnamese mandolin industry which sells through a confusion of Taiwanese Ebay sellers applies some reasonable taste in their inlay mania with a not-too-bad-looking replica of a Vinaccia bowlback. I strongly suspect that it's less nice when seen in the flesh, but it's certainly better than the _genuine_ Vinaccias we've seen that have been butchered with reams of extraneous inlay added by the same shops. Interesting to see they offer a hard case with it, and it's not the standard-issue Korean one. 16 frets is a strange number, though.

...and just to prove that their taste is still hit-and-miss, the same seller also offers a mandola, with mind-boggling inlay.

More genuinely of note is this fairly plain Washburn. They are rare on our side of the Atlantic.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Martin,

It will be interesting to see what the Washburn goes for, and if it stays in the levante.

They have been gradually rising in price over here, still rather inexpensive though. I've had a number of them of wildly varying quality, and settled on a couple that however modest their appearance (and hefty their substance) play fairly nicely. Actually, the wood selection is quite nice.

Some Dutch fellow I met over a Washburn message board is threatening to come out with a new history of the company. It sounds like he has done his homework and has a publisher lined up. I hope that sees fruition.

Mick

----------


## Duc Vu

I've asked the same question on the luthier section, but how many braces does the Vega have? I only see one transverse brace, and two diagonal braces on either side of the soundhole, should there be another transverse one under the cant area?

----------


## atetone

codeew,,,, too bad about that sunken top.
I was watching that auction too and really wanted that Pettine but I had no idea from the pictures and description that there was that kind of sinkage going on. What a shame.
I have absolutely no expertise on bowlback repair so I can't offer any advice at all.
Good luck in getting it fixed up. It should be a great mandolin once repaired.

----------


## Neil Gladd

I contacted Dan Larson several months ago about repairing one of my instruments. He said he was too busy and would not take the job. (Same problem, a sunken soundboard.)

----------


## Eugene

> Some Dutch fellow I met over a Washburn message board is threatening to come out with a new history of the company. It sounds like he has done his homework and has a publisher lined up. #I hope that sees fruition.


That would be the gentleman who posts here as keef. Check out this recent chat.

Neil Russell on Canada's west coast has been threatening the same regarding Washburn's mandolins. Right now, his tiny 2-pager in mandolin magazine is about the only decent print source on Washburn's bowlback models. I haven't heard from Neil since the director of the Victoria Mandolin Orchestra passed away.

----------


## Jim Garber

> By the way... I'm planning a trip to the southwest for sometime in mid-late November, assuming we still have air travel for the general public.


Richard:
I *just* got back from 12 days in AZ. Unfortunately, it was an entirely non-music trip. I was so afraid of serious heat there (and traveling with even a "beach" mandolin in a car scared me) so I have not touched an instrument in all that time.

My sister lives in Phoenix and I can see if she has any connections to concert venues out there.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> I contacted Dan Larson several months ago about repairing one of my instruments. He said he was too busy and would not take the job. (Same problem, a sunken soundboard.)


Neil:
Jim DeCava in Stratford, CT fixed my Vinaccia with a warped and cracked top. He did a nice job.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

A few interesting instruments on the 'bay.

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLINO-SCANNELLATO-NAPOLETANO-DAUTORE-1891_W0QQitemZ130019251343QQihZ003QQcategoryZ1017





9QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Nice scalloped bowl</a> on this one.

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Mandoline-mandolin-mandolina-mandolino_W0QQitemZ230020705358QQihZ013QQcategoryZ  104485QQssP



ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's a no-name from France, cheap so far.</a>

And a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Liuto-cantabile-Raffaele-Calace-1952_W0QQitemZ230020759328QQihZ013QQcategoryZ10179  QQssPage


NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Liuto Cantabile from Calace.</a> Someone here must need this.

How about an interesting <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Antike-Mandoline-Diosino-Rossi-um-1800-made-in-Italy_W0QQitemZ300018710289QQihZ020QQcatego

ryZ21591QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Roman mandolin?</a> I'd chase this one myself if Iweren't so overstocked already.

Less than 3 hrs to go on this <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Italian-Napoli-Mandolin-1825_W0QQitemZ230019383460QQihZ013QQcategoryZ10179  QQrdZ1QQ
cmdZViewItem" target="_blank">maple Vinaccia.</a>

----------


## Jim Garber

This Febbraro looks sort of interesting. Needs work -- of course -- but sort of Roman cosmetics on a Neapolitan mandolin.

That seller of the Vinaccia that Bob mentioned must be very happy. That one resembles my 1902 (sort of), slightly fancier. At least I have some pics of the proper bridge.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

As for the Pettine, good luck on that one. I think it is salvageable and prob worth putting a few hundred of work into. I have heard that those are the best that Vega made. It is definitely different than any of the others I have seen tho.

codeew, where are you located? Maybe someone can recommend a more local luthier, esp if Dan Larson is too busy.

BTW, for those who know... is that bridge original?

Jim

----------


## Duc Vu

Neil and Jim, thanks for the interest. Dan Larson has agreed to take on the repair, I'll show the result when I get it back in 3 to 5 months.

----------


## Jim Garber

Excellent, codeew. Keep us posted.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

The Pettine bridge looks vaguely Vegan; obviously the back has been cut out and an intonated saddle fitted. The trim is not typical Pettine, which was MOP or abalone. Tuners also had pearl buttons. 

Of course, if it has The Sound, who cares about the cosmetics?

----------


## Eugene

It really is a bizarre piece. The marquetry strikes me as much more Regal- than Vega-like. The stars and bits of glittery stuff in the headstock are a little weird. I keep thinking this muest have been very late in the production of such things. I don't recall, is there a serial number evident on this, codeew?

----------


## Duc Vu

Eugene, thanks for your note.
The Pettine's serial number is 34957, and as I understand previous posts by BobD, this makes it a 1917-1918 model.

----------


## Jim Garber

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLINO-SCANNELLATO-NAPOLETANO-DAUTORE-1891_W0QQitemZ130019251343QQihZ003QQcategoryZ1017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Nice scalloped bowl</a> on this one.
> 
> ...


That Uriani appeared on eBay in May of lats year. The exact pictures and descritpion were in the May posting. The price may be too high.

That Vinaccia went for over $2000. 

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

Soooooooo... who snatched that liuto cantabile early?   Not that I would have bid on it but, hey, it would be nice if it were a Café denizen who got it. There was also a nice provenance-point, namely that the instrument was allegedly once property of Prof. Hladky, of editorial fame.

Any idea?

----------


## Jim Garber

> Soooooooo... who snatched that liuto cantabile early?   Not that I would have bid on it but, hey, it would be nice if it were a Café denizen who got it. There was also a nice provenance-point, namely that the instrument was allegedly once property of Prof. Hladky, of editorial fame.
> 
> Any idea?


Well, it did not sell thru the Buy It Now. That was a decent price too.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

This Mandolira by Turturro was posted on another thread.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Funny you should mention the Turturro. I'm in Roch for a wedding, played it yesterday. Sounds rather better than I would have expected; also a pretty thing, so long as you consider it as a thing in itself.

Bernunzio's new storefront is quite delightful. Lots of jazz boxes, a wall of mandolins, a double handful of bowed instruments, and a cabinet or two of the strange and exotic sort of things that seem to come from the fever dreams of overwrought oboe players.

Certainly worth a stop if you find yourself within a hundred miles or so of the area. And, sadly, he has more than one item that I find strangely alluring, even though I am once again penniless from excess.

----------


## guitharsis

Bob,
Glad you made it into Rochester to Bernunzio's. It's wonderful to have it here. Nothing like it. That is
my Casimiro Lozano classical guitar listed. It's a great sounding, easy playing guitar that deserves to have a new owner because I never play guitar anymore.
Doreen

----------


## Jim Garber

Bob, 

Did you ask the price of that Turturro?

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> AhAnd, sadly, he has more than one item that I find strangely alluring, even though I am once again penniless from excess.


Ah, my theme song as well.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> This Febbraro looks sort of interesting. Needs work -- of course -- but sort of Roman cosmetics on a Neapolitan mandolin.


$1875 for this one -- anyone have background info on Febbraro?  I only have one other mandolin by this maker in my jpeg collection.

This one looks nice but the price surprised me. I would have thought more like 1/2 of that.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting Romanesque mandolin on this thread. I am sure we can use the expertise of some of the bowlheads here. Definitely influenced by Embergher and the Roman school but not quite Embergher, right?

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

This mandolin came up for sale at eBay; quite notable and therefore certainly at its place here at this topic.
Click here for the fast link and judge for your self.


Cheers, 

Alex.

----------


## Jim Garber

> This mandolin came up for sale at eBay; quite notable and therefore certainly at its place here at this topic.
> Click here for the fast link and judge for your self.


Ah, from our good friend Ian.

Strange one... aside from the notable scratchplate inlays, the tortoise on the neck would indicate high-end but the top wood looks coarse, the ornamentation is on the gaudy side and the back is not fluted. 

Any clues as to the maker? The headstock shape is similar to that Febbraro noted above.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Indeed a strange mandolin. Especially because of the work that is made to get the neck and head venered with tortoise. It is of course difficult to point out the exact maker of this mandolin. 
If however someone would insist on an indication for a name or a circle of makers around a particular luthier, I would say compare this one with the mandolins from Catania made in the 1st quarter of the 20th century by Mario Casella. 


Best,

Alex.

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## JimD

This is outside my area of expertise: bowlback for sale but the price seems a bit out of line. What do y'all think?

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## Martin Jonas

It looks nice enough, but I would put it at $300 to $500 rather than $10000. There may well be a high sentimental value to the seller because of the family connection, but as this isn't a "name" builder (or at least not one I know) I think the chances of anybody else paying her for that sentimental value is slim to nil.

Martin

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## JimD

Thanks Martin. I had a feeling that was the case.

I certainly couldn't afford that price anyway -- just curious.

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## Jim Garber

That one by Porazzo is the same one that was on eBay for $35,000 (as I recall) some months ago. I emailed the seller and told her that it was worth much less than that, even if the workmanship was impeccable. I didn't want to insult her with the fact that if she got $1500-2000 she would be doing all right. She has lowered her asking price. It does look like a nice instrument but not worth that. 

Jim, did you take a look at it? 

Jim

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## JimD

No, I haven't looked at it. I've been too busy trying to get as much composing as possible done with classes looming in just over a week.  

If I need a break later, I may try to see it.

----------


## Jim Garber

Definitely report back. I have a feeling that the seller still thinks she has a seriously desirable instrument, but the vlaue she puts on it is way out of line. Hard to bargain at that point. Maybe in a year or so.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

This Aluminum bowled mandolin labelled Fratelli Ficarra looks like it once had a DeMeglio-like scratchplate. I have seen quite a few American-made aluminum bowlbacks but never one with an italian label, tho there is also some mention of Port Said, Egypt. That sounds like a store that sold this instrument.

Actually, I just checked my files and I have another one that was sold in France last fall. It looks like it has a darkstained neck.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I think that may be a genuine Egyptian-made instrument: there have been several others with Port Said labels. Possibly this is because of the climate in Egypt destroying Italian imports. There's some discussion from January 2005 on page 30 of this thread, although of course the Ebay listing in question is long gone.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

I wonder if Fratelli Ficarra were an Italian family transplanted to Egypt or else exporters of these mandolins to the music store in Port Said.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> Originally Posted by  (Alex @ Aug. 30 2006, 14:52)
> 
> This mandolin came up for sale at eBay; quite notable and therefore certainly at its place here at this topic.
> Click here for the fast link and judge for your self.
> 
> 
> Ah, from our good friend Ian.
> 
> Strange one... aside from the notable scratchplate inlays, the tortoise on the neck would indicate high-end but the top wood looks coarse, the ornamentation is on the gaudy side and the back is not fluted.


This one is making quite good progress with 20 hours to go: it's at £205, which I guess Ian will be happy with considering that whatever the level of decoration, it's an anonymous instrument. I also agree with Jim that the ornamentation is rather gaudy and the top wood distinctly coarse. I'm also rather concerned about the action, which Ian always gives very conscientiously, so the bidders are presumably aware of what they're getting. 4.5mm would indicate some surgery required (as indeed Ian clearly says in his description), especially as the bone saddle is missing and with the saddle reinstated, the action will be another millimetre higher.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Here is a Ceccherini. It has had a somewhat harder life than mine, but seems to be a fairly similar model. Looks fairly sound on the photos and even still has its tailpiece cover (I've never seen a Ceccherini with it still in place). Although it's not visible, I would expect this one to have the double top, as it has the hooks that seem to go with it.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

I was considering that one, Martin, (that hole in my collection!) and yes, it has the double top. The thing that holds me back is the cost £70 to ship to the US. The seller told me that he would charge me whatever the actual cost would be for shipping but that he thought that it was fairly accurate.

Jim

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## brunello97

> I was considering that one, Martin, (that hole in my collection!) and yes, it has the double top. The thing that holds me back is the cost £70 to ship to the US. The seller told me that he would charge me whatever the actual cost would be for shipping but that he thought that it was fairly accurate.
> 
> Jim


Jim,

I was eyeballing that one as well, but don't want to step on your toes. (Despite what Randy Cohen suggests in his Sunday NYTimes 'Ethicist' column.) 

70L London to New York shouldn't be too much more than a plane ticket, eh?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Mick, if you are interested, go for it. It looks pretty good but I don't need it at all. In fact, I prob should not anyway until I get my others all together or sell a few.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Another Type B Embergher surfaces in eBay Germany. The bridge looks odd and who knows what else is lurking for the brave luthier to handle. Anyway... for your entertainment...

Jim

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## trebleclef528

Quote (jgarber @ Aug. 30 2006, 15:08) 
Quote (Alex @ Aug. 30 2006, 14:52) 
This mandolin came up for sale at eBay; quite notable and therefore certainly at its place here at this topic.
Click here for the fast link and judge for your self. 

Ah, from our good friend Ian.
Quote (martinjonas @ Sep. 04 2006, 17:45)
Strange one... aside from the notable scratchplate inlays, the tortoise on the neck would indicate high-end but the top wood looks coarse, the ornamentation is on the gaudy side and the back is not fluted. 

This one is making quite good progress with 20 hours to go: it's at £205

HI FOLKS,
Yes I'm pleased with the final price especially as I got it on UK ebay just a week before for £99..strange people on ebay... but I think good photos and an accurate description make a difference. The winning bidder is an amatuer luthier so i think he will restore it to it's former glorly. I agree with Alex... I think it smells (affectionately) of Mario Casella.

We are currently on week 4 of the first British mando teachers course with keith harris as lead tutor... WHAT A TEACHER! and he does not let his terrible disease (MS) get him down. Keith has just brought out a superb Mandolin Techneque book called "The Mandolin Game" I'll tell you more when I have time.

(very bust just now.. visited 500 school children this week for mandolin workshops/demo's and recruited another 30 pupils for our young peoples mandolin classes.... interest in mandolin playing in Scotland is "going through the roof"

ps <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandola-contralto-Gaetano-Vinacchia-Neapel-1913_W0QQitemZ230025180795QQihZ013QQcategoryZ10
179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Vinaccia Mandola</a> on Germany ebay

pps last month an absolute top top top of the range Fluted Embergher appeared on German Ebay for #at a start price of 1 Euro before it disappeared after being on ebay for about 5 minutes.... the last one I saw like this went for £26,000 at Southerbys action in London...will keep you all in suspense till I'm back next week.... "I stole" the ebay picture
BEST WISHES
IAN

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## trebleclef528

Nice <a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/ANTICO-MANDOLINO-NAPOLETANO-F-LLI-VINACCIA-A-1893_W0QQitemZ140025996085QQihZ004QQcategoryZ
10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">vinaccia</a> on ebay Italy... will probably go very high
ian

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## Jim Garber

> Nice <a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/ANTICO-MANDOLINO-NAPOLETANO-F-LLI-VINACCIA-A-1893_W0QQitemZ140025996085QQihZ004QQcategoryZ
> 
> 
> 10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">vinaccia</a> on ebay Italy... will probably go very high
> ian


Someone made an offer the seller could not refuse. This seller is pretty knowledgeable so I assume that the offer was quite high.

I never quite understand why sellers agree to end an auction before its time. You figure that if someone offers a high price then they are still willing to pay that same price at auction but would have compete with others more insane than they. I would think it would be in the seller's interest to complete the auction. 

The same thing happened to this Roman Valenti, which I probably would have bid on.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> Another Type B Embergher surfaces in eBay Germany. The bridge looks odd and who knows what else is lurking for the brave luthier to handle. Anyway... for your entertainment...
> 
> Jim


Yet another one swiped in the backrooms of eBay. "No longer for sale..."

Sad because we don't even know what it sold for.

Jim

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## guitharsis

7 hours to go on the Ceccherini. I had thought of bidding on that one, but decided against it because others on the forum were interested. Now, I feel fortunate to have won the auction on mine for soo much less. It was probably as in good or better condition than this one too. Doreen

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## Jim Garber

Doreen:
[I should talk, of course] but why would you need two Ceccherinis?

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Still not a bad price on the Ceccherini, though. These are very fine instruments -- I paid rather more (albeit in better condition). The comparison with the super-fancy fluted on made by the seller is pure fantasy, of course (as is the asking price of $8000 for that one).

Martin

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## guitharsis

Jim, 
Love the Ceccherini; simple as that.  
Martin,
No, that wasn't a bad price. Yes, the comparison and asking price on the fluted one were "interesting".
Doreen

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## vkioulaphides

That Vinaccia mandola had stagnated at 500 Euro for a while. I was in fact starting to spread the word among mandolists I know... It did not stagnate forEVER, though. It sold at a reasonable price, considering the quality and condition. Oh, well... the mandolin market is becoming _dangerously WELL-informed_.

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## Jim Garber

This Indianapolis (Wulschner-made) <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Regal-Antique-Mandolin-1901-1904-Round-Back-Rare_W0QQitemZ130023380120QQihZ003QQcategoryZ1

0179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Regal</a> looks nice but went for somewhat more than I expected. I guess the Handel tuners help. If it is in good playable shape already then it is a decent price. If it needs more work... you know the drill.

Unless, of course, the high bidder is a rabid Samuel Siegel fan 

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Well, Handel tuners on their own have been known to go for more than the price of that Regal, so I guess it's not that surprising. Mind you, these tuners won't be transferable to a Gibson, because it's the enclosed style, so anybody wanting to harvest them would need to do major sugery to transplant the knobs onto a set of open tuners.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Not a bowlback, but this may be the best place for it: here is a recent (2004) liuto cantabile by a French luthier unknown to me (Phillippe Berne). Scale length is 645mm, which presumably means it's intended for liuto cantabile CGDAE tuning.

Interesting headstock. Not a very impressive soundfile, which may more the fault of the player and/or the recording rather than the instrument.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Here is yet another Ceccherini, wit a starting bid roughly where the last one ended up. I think this one has been worked over at some stage: the tailpiece is non-orginal and the soundboard looks to have been refinished.

Martin

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## Arto

"Not a bowlback, but this may be the best place for it: here is a recent (2004) liuto cantabile by a French luthier unknown to me (Phillippe Berne). #Scale length is 645mm, which presumably means it's intended for liuto cantabile CGDAE tuning."

WHAT is this instrument? "Scale lenght is 645mm with quarter tones". See the fret placement? Is this some sort of lavta, or what?

Curious,
Arto

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## Martin Jonas

You're right Arto: I didn't see the fret placement. #It's clearly not a liuto cantabile after all and seems to have some strange kind of microtonality. The peculiar thing is that it makes no sense even if one doesn't count the obvious quarter-tone frets (the second and fifth fret). Leaving these out gives reasonable looking fret spacings, but only fourteen frets in total, with the 12th fret clearly well past the midway of the (fixed) scale length. Somewhat of a mystery, then.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

A small battle going on between two relatively new (to me) eBay bidders on this simple maple-bowled Fratelli Vinaccia. I am sure that the seller will be very happy with the outcome.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

That Vinaccia is at the moment at $920, which I would have thought is a pretty reasonable price. Mind you, I would be put off by the seller's incoherent rambling about paying methods, and by the impression from the side-on photo that the action is far too high, suggesting a dodgy neck joint.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Final battle result: over $1700. 

Jim

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## brunello97

> Final battle result: over $1700. 
> 
> Jim


The general price escalation continues. Who is doing all these neck repairs? What kind of cost does that add to the 'purchase price'?

I do like the looks of a nice maple bowlback though.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I got mine -- very similar model -- for about 1/10 of that price. It cost me about $300 more to get it to playing shape. Serious warped top crack and general set up. Pretty nice now. 

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Check out this one in the classified, offered by Marco Onorati for $6500. 1779 Johannes Vinaccia.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Rather strange to see the condition of this 1906 D'Isanto (apparently built after the end of his partnership with Angara): I've never seen a bowlback where all the braces have completely detached and yet the top still looks intact, at least on the photos. #As some strings are still on there, I would have expected more or less complete collapse. #From the questions, it looks like Dave Hynds is on the case, anyway.

This one is very intriguing: an early de Meglio dated 1893. Unusually, this one has a maple bowl (every de Meglio I've ever seen was rosewood) and it has no pickguard inlay (which I had only seen in clones, not de Meglio-labelled ones). The model number doesn't fit into the normal scheme, either: I've seen "1A", "A" and "B", but this one is a "Model 1". Nice marketing scheme: "1A", "A" and "1" all sound as if they might be the top model.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Once again, something came up that was too good to pass on: I pulled the trigger on this Ceccherini when I saw it with a Buy-It-Now price of 50 Pounds. I think it had only just been put up: the Ebay counter shows only six hits during the time the listing was active. That price was less than the cheapest hard shell case on the market, so I really had to give in. The seller lives near me and I picked it up in person after work today.

It's a beautiful instrument in robust shape. Some cosmetic battering, largely as a result of prolonged exposure to light while out of a case, but nothing serious other than some restorative work needed on the bridge. Straight neck, low action, no soundboard cracks, fine tight top woods (as on any Ceccherini I've seen). Unlike my other two Ceccherinis, there will be no adjustment of action necessary before making it playable.

In terms of level of decoration and quality of craftsmanship, it's a close relative to my other double-top Ceccherini, except for its evidently much harder life. Where the other one looks like it came out of the showroom yesterday, this one has tarnished silver inlays, dulled tortoiseshell and a very dark soundboard. As usual, fabulously elegant inlay work on the pickguard, tailpiece cover, fretboard markers and, the coup-de-grace, a wonderfully elegant brass, MOP and abalone inlay on the headstock. I've not seen headstock inlay like this one before and will post photos once I have it cleaned up. For the brass and silver inlay, polishing with Brasso or such should restore some sheen. Any ideas on how to polish old dull tortoiseshell?

The most striking aspect of this one is of course that it has ten strings. The listing didn't make it clear whether they were in four or in five courses, but it turns out that it's four courses, with the triple strings on the treble courses. A pity in a way, as I thought it might be a mandolin/mandola, like Vega used to make. I don't think conversion to five courses is a goer, either: the fretboard is only about a millimetre wider than my 8-string Ceccherini and the bowl looks to be exactly the same shape and size as the other one with the very curious exception that it has 15 ribs where the other one has 16. Braces may be slightly stronger, and the neck is certainly somewhat chunkier, presumably to withstand the extra tension from two additional strings, but it's otherwise not obviously stronger built.

I'm pretty sure I will set it up as an eight-string and make use of the extra strength by going for slightly heavier gauges, e.g. the Optima Goldins that I use on the Embergher.

Photos to come soon once I've cleaned it up a bit.

Martin

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## guitharsis

Congrats, Martin! It's unique and a beauty. 
Doreen

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## Fliss

Martin, congrats on your new purchase! You are a true bargain hunter   I look forward to hearing how it sounds, I'd also be interested to know what difference the chunkier neck makes to the feel of it when you play.

Fliss

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## Jim Garber

This is a strange one. De Santi - Angro mandola. 

At first I thought the seller mispelled both names but it seems that the label says that. All the others I have seen have had the names in reverse order and had them *Angara - DiSanto.* 

Other than that, it seems like it has been thru the mill. Bridge glued on (possibly) and lots of cracks.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I've put some photos of my new Ceccherini up in the pictures forum here

Martin

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## Jim Garber

No messing around on this 1937 Calace sold by Carlo M. I love his term "harmguard." Covers both the harm and the arm.

Jim

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## brunello97

I thought this guy was kind of a joke...but is this for real?


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws...._widget

Is he really butchering up valuable instruments? Who would sell him something knowing this is the outcome?

Max von Sydow time.

Mick

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## Keith Miller

I hate to say it but yes it will be for real, there are a number of inlay people out east who do this sort of thing and this is not the 1st high end mando that has had the treatment. Mind you a lot of older bowlback were originally a lot more ornate that this is now .
Keith

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## RSW

What's with the tatoo jobs on mandolins these days (from the Tawain contingent)? You start with something ordinary or even ugly (in the case of their own creations) and it ends up even uglier. In the case of that unfortunate 'restored' Vinaccia, my heart aches!

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## vkioulaphides

I have, however, dreamed of owning some over-the-top ornate instrument only, of course, _originally_ so, perhaps a turn-of-the-century American, something to show off to my grandchildren some day...  But, alas, I am both mando-penniless and too much of a crass pragmatist to sense any real _need_ for such a treasure.




> "I love his term "harmguard."


Ah, the silent "h" troubles many Italians: which word has it, which doesn't? An Italian composer friend of mine once got into a heated argument about the patrician vs. plebeian background of composers, and how that affected their later, celebrity-status life. In defense of Italy's "national hero" composer, my friend got up and yelled out passionately, "Look at Verdi! Look what masterpieces he wrote, and both his parents were p*h*easants, lowly, poor, semi-literate p*h*easants!"

Hard to father a great composer, if you're but a couple of _birds_ after all.

----------


## etbarbaric

> What's with the tatoo jobs on mandolins these days (from the Tawain contingent)?


These have bothered me too, and I think Richard gives it just the right name.... something ornamental that the installer thinks is artistic, but that actually ultimately detracts...

I have wondered if there is any way of conveying a message to these people that this practice is frowned upon but for their own instruments.

Eric

----------


## margora

"These have bothered me too, and I think Richard gives it just the right name.... something ornamental that the installer thinks is artistic, but that actually ultimately detracts...

I have wondered if there is any way of conveying a message to these people that this practice is frowned upon but for their own instruments."

We can certainly get a message to them, but it will probably be ignored -- unless we tell them that there are potential US (and non-US) customers who would pay SUBSTANTIALLY more for an instrument in original, or restored to original, condition.

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## Jim Garber

I just noticed that this thread has reached its 100th page. Congratulations to all the contributors.

As to the Taiwanese situation... the only solution might be to put the Vinaccias, Calaces, etc on the endangered species list... oh well...

Jim

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## Bob A

Victor, how's this? - dream or nightmare?

It's very similar to one I have; mine has a more floral motif, rather than birds. I tend to cringe while playing it, lest any little chunk of pearl, ivory, tortoise, unicorn horn or precious metal crack or pop off to disappear into the ravenous maw of a dust bunny lurking beneath the couch. I'd rather play the normal Ceccherini for that reason - it sounds just as good, anyway.

The avian example in Philly might be just the thing for the early Verdis. 

At least old Umberto got the last word on how he wanted his instrument adorned. I may have been served something inscrutable at a Chinese restaurant from one of those Vinaccias, once.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "Victor, how's this? - dream or nightmare?"


Well, Bob... it certainly is _not_ a nightmare, IMHO, for the very reason(s) you suggest: that's just what "the master had in mind". While, however, I share your point on originality, I must say I also share your concern that some minuscule, yet crucially important and irreplaceable bit of this gem of an instrument might fall off while in use. Definitely NOT "one for the road"!

To pinpoint my aversion to the "restored" Vinaccia: there is a sense of #_deformity_ there, one terribly painful to those of us who have seen other Vinaccias that, ehm... had not received the wonder-filled contributions of adoring restorers. # So, in context with _those_, this one strikes us as hideously deformed, abused, mistreated the good intentions of the restorer notwithstanding.

Au contraire, the Ceccherini you reference (and yours, if I remember it from ealrier postings) is stunningly beautiful in its own way, and exemplifies the "DeLuxe model" mentality with which many fine luthiers (including the Vinaccias, the Calaces, Embergher, and the list goes on...) created those _rara avis_ specimens. 

I see this as being the critical difference. As for the _similarity_ between all of them, oh, that's simple: I can't afford ANY of them. # 

Cheers,

Victor

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## vkioulaphides

You know... the _really_ sad thing is that, at the very reasonable Buy It Now price of $1,500 for a hypothetical, UNrestored Vinaccia in good condition, that is   SEVERAL serious players/buyers might have gathered around this auction. Now... gawdy merchandise attracts respectively, ehm... how do I put this?... oh, _less discriminating_ clientele. I hope this is sufficiently P.C.

----------


## Keith Miller

I work for a University with a collection of old instruments including a number of very elderly mandolins, some of those leave the far east contingent standing in terms of "fancy" . Maybe we are just returning to our roots so to speak  
Keith

----------


## Bob A

I suspect the elderly yet glistening rococo instruments dated from periods when mandolins were very much the fashion with the more elevated strata of society. (It is to be remembered that around the turn of the century Italian royalty was in fact dabbling with the instrument; of course this phenomenon was also noted during earlier periods of the instrument's history). 

Here is an example of turn of the century Embergher overindulgence.

Certainly the roots of the mandolin tree (an almond, I suppose) has been watered with the sweat of the elite; nonetheless, it would be a mistake to deny its folk roots, which have always extended deeper into the hearts of hoi polloi, whose affections sustained its existence during the frequent dry spells of the favored few.

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## brunello97

Well, Victor, you are being careful and diplomatic as usual. Yet your position is clear, and that is a good thing. 

PC? No need to worry in this case. And I have been living in one of the epicenters of PC in America. Actually it has helped to clarify things in my mind.

The Emberghers, Ceccherinis etc. that are posted here can in no way be compared to the work of Bruce Wei, Inc. Both are ornate, yes, but using that logic, my house, for instance, and a Rothko canvas are both painted. (Maybe with the same type of paint and the same type of brush.) Such analogies go only so far and actually obscure important values. With some artifacts, there IS an accounting for taste.

Bruce Wei's work is a hideous desecration of a craft and art from another country, culture and tradition. Plain and simple. If I were to purchase valuable Sanxian or Ruan and spray paint them with my gang's graffiti icons and then try to sell them as 'improved', I doubt anyone would be debating the merits of my 'ornament' relative to, say, Chinese calligraphy.

This guy will only proceed until some folks clearly express their distaste and others refuse to buy. It is bad enough on instruments he might make himself, completely deplorable on instruments he appropriates.

I used to think this guy's stuff was funny in a kind of tacky way. Now, I've gotten myself really p-o-ed about this. Time to write Mr. Wei a letter. (My only hope is that he photocopied a Vinaccia label and pasted into some hack mandolin.)

Well, at least I got to see some great mandolins in the course of this thread.

Mick

----------


## Linda Binder

&lt;&lt;Certainly the roots of the mandolin tree (an almond, I suppose) has been watered with the sweat of the elite; nonetheless, it would be a mistake to deny its folk roots, which have always extended deeper into the hearts of hoi polloi, whose affections sustained its existence during the frequent dry spells of the favored few.&gt;&gt;

Beautifully put Bob.

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## Linda Binder

&lt;&lt; (My only hope is that he photocopied a Vinaccia label and pasted into some hack mandolin.)&gt;&gt;
I've always wondered, and I guess hoped for that to be the case. It's just unbelievable that a quality vintage instrument be a revered luthier would be treated like this.

----------


## Keith Miller

Something I've wondered about... all that inlay, would it affect the tone of the instrument ? I would have thought that it would seriously change the resonant quality of the wood

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## Jim Garber

Elderly has this 1904 Style 5 Martin. Too bad it has been refinished.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> Something I've wondered about... all that inlay, would it affect the tone of the instrument ? I would have thought that it would seriously change the resonant quality of the wood


To some extent, yes. Excessive inlay on the soundboard may potentially be detrimental to the tone. It is therefore interesting to look closely at the two quality instruments linked in the previous few posts: both the Ceccherini and the Embergher are heavily laden with inlay and decorations, *but* both of them, crucially, have a relatively plain soundboard. The pickguard on the Ceccherini is the same size as on his other instruments and the binding is only marginally wider. The inlay on the top is confined to the pickguard and the binding, i.e. to areas which are not acoustically active in any case. Similarly on the Embergher: the havily decorated pickguard is much the same size as on other, plainer, instruments and the main relevant difference in acoustic terms is the somewhat wider soundhole binding.

The parts that are really heavily decorated on the two instruments are the headstock, neck, fretboard, tailpiece and bowl, all parts that are essentially acoustically inactive anyway.

This is an important distinction, I think: there are many overdecorated examples where the decoration spills over onto the soundboard and I feel that those luthiers have crossed a line where form becomes more important than function.

Martin

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## trebleclef528

"This superb mandola was made by the brothers Vinaccia in Napoli in 1890...." ebay Item number: 230036852725 NICE! and nice price!

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## vkioulaphides

Ehm... by "nice" price, do you mean for the _buyer_ OR for the _seller_?  

But, of course, it IS surely a nice _instrument_!

*sounds of digging in pockets, jingling change, loose coinage*

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## trebleclef528

Hi Vic... well I guess I mean nice price for the seller although I would imagine that some of the (rich)Vinaccia fanatics might think it's nice price.. or perhaps one of our Taiwanese inlay artists might decide to enhance the inlay work..AAARGH!
Best wishes
Ian

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## vkioulaphides

> " ...perhaps one of our Taiwanese inlay artists might decide to enhance the inlay work..."


*NOOOOoooooooooooo!!!!!!!*

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## etbarbaric

Brilliantly put Victor! 

:-)

Eric

ps - That's one of the most violinistic scrolls I think I've seen on a mando-thingy. I'm usually put off by such things (as I prefer the violinistic variety) but that one is very nicely turned.

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## Jim Garber

Here is a link to that mandola. Just wondering what the scale length of this one is. Is it mandoliola or an octave mandola?

The violin scroll is esp interesting. I have never seen one on a Vinaccia before. Could easily be inspiration for Lyon & Healy.

Jim

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## brunello97

Jim, 

Was it L+H responsible for the scroll heads often seen with the Brandt label? Did they show up with any other US makers/brands?

Not that I have 5000L around but that is a pretty great looking instrument. On its way to Japan as the bidding stands right now.

I'll let Brian and Dave struggle with duplicating the bowlback. I think I'm going to build one of those cool wooden (coffin) cases this weekend. The latches, locks, hinges, handle-all are great. 

Mick

----------


## Eugene

I'm pretty certain those on Brandt were independent of the L&H. Every Brandt I've seen except one dated 1898 sported either a nice scroll, or a tragic and ugly partial scroll (Brandt just couldn't pull that off like Embergher), back to the very early 1900s and certainly predating L&H's use. There is some speculation of a L&H/Brandt connection, but I haven't seen that substantiated, and Brandts seem to me to have a significantly different "feel." Of course, full scrolls on mandolins date to some of the earliest mandolini, at least into the 1700s.

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## brunello97

Here's a side view of a Brandt scroll dated from 1899, I believe.

(Well that attachment didn't work, so here's a few links):

[img=http://img16.imagevenue.com/loc557....lo.jpg]

[img=http://img22.imagevenue.com/loc498....lo.jpg]

[img=http://img18.imagevenue.com/loc452....lo.jpg]

[img=http://img23.imagevenue.com/loc590....lo.jpg]

The carving doesn't appear too hideous, but I've never appreciated the big metal tuner plate on the front in this design. Still I'd like to try one out.

Any picures, then, of an L+H version?

Mick

----------


## Eugene

No, I think Brandt's full scrolls were quite nice. It's their Embergher-like (but only barely) partial scrolls that were piggishly offensive. L&H images abound. They were considerably thicker and less violin-like, but perhaps more appropriate for carrying geared tuning machines. Check out Bob D's L&H page to start.

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## Martin Jonas

That Vinaccia mandola is very nice indeed! Let's see whether there is another Japanese bidder competing with the current one. It's missing its sleeve protector, of course. I'm not too sure about the tailpiece, either: it's nicely decorated, but an 1890s Vinaccia should have ivory tailpiece pins rather than a metal tailpiece, I would think. A later replacement, maybe, along with that strap button.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Not a bowlback but relevant:
PJ Bone Book

[Oops, I must have lopped off the h from http -- thanks, Neil]

Yes, I have that 1972 edition also bought a few years ago.

Jim

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## Neil Gladd

Here is a better link to the Bone book. That looks just like mine, with the same red cover. I thought the $35 price was pretty outrageous when I bought it 30 years ago...

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## Martin Jonas

Neil (or anybody else with a copy of Bone),

I see from the index page in the Ebay listing that there is a photo of Leopoldo Francia in the book. Is that the same photo that is in the Sparks book? I'm looking for a better view of his Ceccherini -- in the Sparks photo, you can sort of make out that it has the typical Ceccherini pickguard, but the quality is too poor to see any details.

Strange, too, that the seller in the UK but he has listed the book in on Ebay US, with a price in US dollars. I guess, he reckons there's a better market there.

Martin

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## Neil Gladd

I'll check when I get home.

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## Jim Garber

> I see from the index page in the Ebay listing that there is a photo of Leopoldo Francia in the book. Is that the same photo that is in the Sparks book? I'm looking for a better view of his Ceccherini -- in the Sparks photo, you can sort of make out that it has the typical Ceccherini pickguard, but the quality is too poor to see any details.


Martin:
The photo in the Bone book is not the same (see at left) -- just a head shot. Sparks cites the one with the mandolin as coming from Banjo World Oct 1896 and I would assume that it was a magazine. He says it is courtesy of the British Library.

So you would prob need the original photo not the reproduced, halftoned one.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

> "This superb mandola was made by the brothers Vinaccia in Napoli in 1890...." ebay Item number: 230036852725 NICE! and nice price!


You think the opening price was nice?... check out the final! Over $16K U.S. 

The times, they are a-changin....

Eric

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## Martin Jonas

That is rather a lot. Nice mandola, of course. I can't quite remember, but I'm fairly sure that this is the same seller who I bought my Ceccherini from. That one was a similarly pristine instrument as the Vinaccia (of course not remotely in its league money-wise). I see he now has another very nice-looking de Meglio for sale here. This one is a 1893 Model 2 and it is much more decorated than the usually seen Models B, A and 1A (all of which look virtually identical). Apart from the decorations, the basic mandolin appears to be much the same, though. Fine condition, it appears, except that it had some of those tortoiseshell-eating beetles in: it's been eaten away around the inlay on the binding and tailpiece cover.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

I almost had a heart attack. I was checking an acoustic guitar newsgroup and someone posted that they had a mandolin and wanted it id'ed. Someone else said, oh that is an Embergher. Then the owner replied, oh it is a moot point. I just sold it for $50.

Upon further examination I checked the linked photo and it turns out it is a Suzuki, no italian instrument.

Hah!
Jim

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## Jim Garber

Tony Bingham has a lovely looking understated 1923 Flli. Vinaccia. Check it out here. 

Also this unlabelled piccolo mandolin. He says Calace style and I suppose it is, tho it does have a scratchplate that resembles the Embergher scroll.

Any UKers make it over to his shop to check it out? I was there way back in 1977 but wasn't interested in bowlbacks back then.

Jim

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## Bob A

The Bingham Vinaccia is interesting in that it is a very late example. I don't know when the Last Vinaccia hit the streets (does anyone? Strikes me as of some interest) but this one must be a contender. Purfling, f'board inlays and pickguard all strike me as atypical of the Vinnies I've seen, not that there have been that many; and the lack of cutout on the peghead also jars a bit. I like the extended board. Price seems high, but then I'm not in the market, thankfully.

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## Linda Binder

I haven't seen a bowlback tone-guard before! This is on an instrument on Bingham's site:

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## Jim Garber

> I don't know when the Last Vinaccia hit the streets (does anyone?


The latest ones I have in my files are a 1928 one that looks very much like a Calace in style and structure and a Roman style one that dates from 1929.

Jim

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## Jonathan Rudie

Quote (Bob A @ Oct. 24 2006, 20:44) 
I don't know when the Last Vinaccia hit the streets (does anyone? 

A member of my orchestra plays a Vinaccia with a date of 1930. The latest I have ever seen.

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## Bob A

Jonathan, if you could post a pic of the 1930 Vinaccia for the historical record, I'm sure many of us would be interested.

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## vkioulaphides

> "I haven't seen a bowlback tone-guard before."


SO nice to hear from you again, Linda! I was, in fact, concerned that you might be (in some way or other) not well, and was planning to drop you an "R U OK?" e-note. I am glad to be assured otherwise.

As for the tone-guard, there was once a gentleman in Norway building such and, of course, respectively enormous contraptions for *BASSES*. Needless to say, I, ehm... didn't quite _buy_ one. #

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## Linda Binder

> &lt;&lt;was planning to drop you an "R U OK?" e-note. I am glad to be assured otherwise.&gt;&gt;


S! I M OK! 

I'm glad you didn't buy a bass version Victor. It might make your bass angry. As for me...I'm fine, just disorganized! Thanks for thinking of me!
--Linda

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## vkioulaphides

U R

Yeah, I could not imagine myself shlepping bass AND some ridiculously large, ridiculously bulky cast-iron contraption in and out of New York subway trains...

Besides speaking of mandolins, of course I doubt that the contact the bowl has with the (player's) body does much to dampen the tone.

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## Bob A

I agree, Victor; one of the prime advantages of a bowlback is the limited contact it makes with the player's body, thus limiting the damping of all that joyful noise.

Still, the metal thing is visually interesting in its way; one feels that one's mandolin is not likely to become pregnant while one is off to the Crusades.

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## vkioulaphides

Don't encourage the industry, Bob! Before you know it, there will be the Acme Tone-Guard/Chastity-Belt All-Purpose Contraption ®

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## Jim Garber

I know, not actually an instrument, but rather than start a Bowlback Cases of Note thread...

Steve Perry of Gianna Violins posted this ad for Eastman cases. I just bought one for my sometime coming Embergher. I have one other for one of my Calaces.

They tell me that they have about 6 more of these for those of you who need such a thing. I have a distinct feeling that they will not be ordering too many more. BTW they are all white which is not a bad thing if you take your Vinaccia to the beach 

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Not actually a bowlback, in fact I'm not too sure what it is. This monstrosity is a strong contender for the ugliest mandolin around. A very similar one was for sale (and discussed on the Cafe) a few months ago, but I think this one is actually a different one by the same maker. Rather like an F4 that's been left out int he sun to melt (with some chewing gum to make that hideous blue inlay figurine).

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

Hey, man... what's-a-matter-you? Don't you dig _Dalí_?



P.S. Reminds one how absolutely GORGEOUS _normal_ instruments are.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Not actually a bowlback, in fact I'm not too sure what it is. This monstrosity is a strong contender for the ugliest mandolin around. A very similar one was for sale (and discussed on the Cafe) a few months ago, but I think this one is actually a different one by the same maker. Rather like an F4 that's been left out int he sun to melt (with some chewing gum to make that hideous blue inlay figurine).
> 
> Martin


Palm Guitars has another Garozzo -- might be the one that you are referring to. They say from Catania. Similar construction, evidentally a double-top.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

That one looks almost sane compared to the Ebay one -- it's at least largely symmetrical. No, the one I've seen before was fairly similar to the current one.

They clearly have a double top, but whereas I give Messrs. Gelas, Ceccherini and Virzi the credit of thinking seriously about sound production, somehow I am less inclined to extend this to Garozzo. The outer top is clearly carved, in fact looks similar to the very early Gibsons, but I wonder whether it's purely cosmetic and if you strip it away, there's a plain conventional mandolin underneath.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Not too many BBON lately, eh? 

Here's one I was sort of interested if I could get it for a low price. The oddness of this one is that the label applied by Tipaldi (the importer) is spelled wrong. Made me think it was possibly not a genuine Vinaccia and it may very well not be. I still have a feeling it will go for more serious money. There are a few of the bowlback chasers who are pursuing it right now. 

It is still very reasonable if it is a genuine Vinaccia. Does anyone know if Flli. Vinaccia was ever located on Via Duomo or was there a wanabe maker called Vanacchia?

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Here is a Carlo Loveri (misspelled) with five hours to go and a desultory high bid. I've bought one of these for a friend, which was a very nice instrument with excellent workmanship and really good tight-grained wood. This one looks decent, too. The defects noted by the seller are trivial.

Nice de Meglio, too, another not so nice one (there seems to be a top crack), and yet another one, this one unusually with a completely plain scratchplate.

I do wonder about this anonymous one -- it has the Vinaccia style tailpiece pegs, which most of their copyists and pupils replaced with metal tailpieces.

All of them much cheaper than this Regal/Victor reverse-scroll bottomfeeder.

Martin

Edit: link fixed.

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## brunello97

Martin,
As far as carp go, that is still a fairly decent looking Regal. I wonder if it has been refinished? The top appears fairly wide-grained, but I've played numerous Gibson As with similar appearing grain that sound quite nice. The reverse-scroll thing has always given me a bit of the creeps. Maybe they have a uniqueness to the English eye. We'll see how the final prices go. My hunch is that the de Meglio will in the end be, well, tanto meglio.
Mick

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## chey47

Were can someone get a really nice mandolin? Like Embergher, Calace etc.

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## Jim Garber

Either be prepared to spend the bucks (or euros or pounds etc) or else take your chances on the auction site. IMHO no real deals for the top three makers since most bidders will fight to the market value or else the sellers place the reserve at or near the market value.

Otherwise, here is a list of a few sellers who usually have quality vintage bowlbacks:

Carlo Mazzacarra (Naples)

Marco Onorati (Rome)

Sinier de Ridder France

Calace (Naples)

Ikegaku (Japan)

William Petit (France)

Vintage Instruments (Philadelphia)

Occasionally some of the bigger American dealers come across some Italian bowlbacks, butm, for the most part they are not in the US but more in Europe and the UK.

Good Luck
Jim

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## Jim Garber

I just came across this mandolin blog. I am not sure who this guy is or where he is but these are nice-looking mandolins and a few Neapolitan makers I was unaware of.

Jim

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## Bob A

While I lucked into a nice Vinaccia, it still ran to a grand with the many necessary repairs. I suppose I lucked into my Pecoraro, but it still ran high. I figure I was lucky in just getting an opportunity to purchase at a fixed price, rather than having to chase it thru an auction.

It might be worth putting the word out to a responsive and well-connected dealer that you are looking for a particular maker's instrument; having right of first refusal is a nice position to be in, in this kind of market.

While these things do come up on ebay, the higher-end items might also show up at Skinners, Christie's or the like. HOwever you might be dealing with a heavier crowd there. I think one of the very fancy Emberghers went for an astronomical sum a year or so ago. 

If you have access to decent luthiery talent, and the necessary time, patience and luck, you might still get a deal on a damaged instrument. Of all the necessary virtues, the big one is patience. I could have saved a bundle on a Calace had I waited for several months instead of chasing mine on ebay, competing with the international mandolin mafia.

In fact, the best deal on a Calace instrument was here on the cafe classifieds. Most of the folks who watch this site are not into bowlbacks, and every now and then a good 'un will pop up.

Don't be too fixated on the Big Three (Calace, Vinaccia and Embergher (which also includes Pecoraro and Cerrone)): Ceccherini, Salsedo, De Meglio, Loveri and others also made excellent bowlbacks which can be had far more cheaply, and which are not so heatedly pursued. I should also mention Martin and Vega, which are arguably as good as any Italian instrument, but are either unknown or disparaged by Europeans, and of little interest to the typical American player. The Vega Pettine Special is, in my estimation, the finest bowlback ever made on this continent. When they show up in the marketplace, they typically sell for about 2K. 

Of course, all this is relative. If you're looking at the like of Gilchrist or, heaven help you, Lloyd Loar, you can amass a bunch of world-class bowlbacks for the cost of one of the above. It's kind of amazing, really, to think that a concert-quality professional bowlback can be had for a couple grand, up to maybe 6K for an Embergher 5bis. (Of course the Emberghers clad in tortoise and pearl, with tuner buttons of unicorn horn, are a different story, but they're more museum pieces than players' instruments).

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## Bob A

Despite having too many bowlbacks already, I'm sorry I didn't bid on the Loveri. 63 pounds, forsooth!

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## chey47

This is Joe from Lexington KY and I appreciate the info given to me above. I am really interested in a nice classical mandolin as I find myself playing more of this type of music all the time, to me much more rewarding than say playing a fiddle tune etc. I may look into one of the Martins.

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## Bob A

The Larson brothers made some fine bowlbacks as well. They were sold under a number of brand names; Stahl and Maurer come to mind. 

Don't overlook Lyon & Healy mandolins, which are well suited for a classical repertoire, and have some advantages; they're carved like Gibsons, so you don't have to wrestle with a totally foreign body style, they come in two scale lengths, 13" and 14", so you don't have to adapt to a short scale (though it does come in handy for long stretches), and they fit well into other musical styles, as they have a more authoritative bass than a bowlback, but a heavenly treble that you'll never get out of a Gibson - there's just too much wood to move in a Gib. While they're not cheap, they're still way undervalued for what they are, and are delightful instruments.

You should have a lot of fun chasing this rainbow. Be sure to keep us posted.

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## Jim Garber

Kurt DeCorte in Belgium has 5 sets of original <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ORIGINAL-Luigi-EMBERGHER-strings-for-MANDOLIN-5-sets_W0QQitemZ270052582050QQihZ017QQcatego
ryZ359QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Embergher strings</a> for sale. 

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Thanks for the heads-up, Jim -- I might well bid for these, if they stay reasonable.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

I am not sure how usable these would be except as collectors items. I am uncertain about the shelf life of strings.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Depends on how they are kept, but I do know that Ralf had reported that he was using old original 1920s Embergher stock quite recently -- the Gervasio piece on his website is recorded with them!

Martin

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## MML

Perhaps off top, but did any of you bowl back geeks see the little Bauer that sold today. I have never seen a perfect scale miniture like it before, pretty cool pretty expensive...Boy its kinda nice down here.

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## Bob A

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Mandolin-Tiny-Inlaid-Mother-Of-Pearl-Antique-BAUER_W0QQitemZ300045122848QQihZ020QQcategory
Z10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's the link</a> to the Bauer. Cute, and not cheap, and apparently hotly pursued.

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## Jim Garber

Yeah, I did my best but there were some heavy hitters on it from the collector's scene. I know most of the folks bidding. I think that that one was smaller than piccolo and prob tuned an octave above a mandolin. The overall length was, as I recall, 12.5" so the scale might have been something like 7" or 8".

Jim

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## chey47

What is a good price for a Martin Style 5 Mandolin in good condition?

Thanks Joe

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## Jim Garber

> What is a good price for a Martin Style 5 Mandolin in good condition?


You mean like this one?

Bear in mind that I am the owner of a style 6 Martin... and I am in awe of it in some ways.

However, as far as a playing instrument, I think you can do just as well with a plainer model, Martin, Vega, Washburn (or a host a Italian instruments and a fraction of the cost). Of course, if you have the buck to burn for such a thing and it gets you going, why not. They are prime examples of incredible artistry and workmanship. OTOH you are paying for all that without any increase in tone or playability, necessarily.

Just my dos centavos...

In a more direct answer to your question: VG Guide (published earlier this year) says about $2000-2400 for a style 5. YMMV.


Jim

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## Bob A

Or perhaps this one? 

I concur with Jim; while I have a few over-the-top bowlbacks, the problems associated with tiny bits of inlay and generally delicate doodads make me reluctant to play them much. And for the most part, they are not superior as musical instruments, however much they may be visually provocative. (Let us not get into exactly what it is they provoke; tastes vary with the time and the company.)

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## guitharsis

What Jim and Bob said.

I do prefer to play my A styles (Kevin Mathers, Oldtime Mandolins or Eastman 604) but there is something so intriguing about bowlbacks.

Did see the one at Bernunzio's when I was in the store today. Very nice. The one at Elderly's in Bob's post looks to be in excellent condition, even the case!

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## chey47

Well I am much more interested in tone and playability than looks, any suggestions if I am willing to spend about 2,000?

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## chey47

Forgot to mention I had a Washburn Bowlback and I want something much better, I definitely want to put my money towards tone and playability.

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## Bob A

Depends on how you want to go. New? Used? Vintage Italian?

At that level, you have to think along the same lines as if you were spending, oh, 5-10 times as much on a US F5. In other words, that's a lot of money for a bowlback. At that level, you should be refining your sight picture toward a particular maker, by reason of having experienced a number of different instruments, and have an idea of just what you want.

You could get a new Calace or Pandini (I think Pandini is closer to 3k now that the dollar is sucking mud). You might luck into a low-end Embergher. You could get a nice Martin, or a Vega Pettine (if you could find one). You could get 3-4 midlevel Italian instruments from the turn of the century. Ceccherini, Salsedo, De Meglio, etc. It sort of depends on what you find that you prefer.

You could also go toward a Lyon & Healy carved-top; a style B or C should be approachable, and they're very fine instruments. Don't be put off by the fact that they aren't the top of the line - they sound and play just as well as the style A, they just don't have the same level of trim.

If you are anywhere near Washington DC you are welcome to slide by and play with my instruments. I have several, and you might get an idea of which way you'd like to proceed. Or you could spend some money on shipping, and have a few dealers send you stuff on approval. This usually involves buying the instrument; then you have a trial period of a day or two to decide whether to keep it.

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## Martin Jonas

Rare on this side of the Atlantic: a higher-end Washburn.

Martin

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## guitharsis

Nice Washburn!

I was high bidder on a DeMeglio #280044321090

Another DeMeglio, #330045637641, sold for 110GBP, $200 more and wasn't in anywhere as good condition. #It did include a couple of books though :Smile:  

Haven't purchased a vintage bowlback mandolin over a year, since September '05, and this week acquired two more.

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## Jim Garber

Wow, Doreen, you are quickly getting to our level of insanity  

Congratulations! How many Demeglios do you have now, or was your first Italian mandolin a Ceccherini -- I can't recall?

BTW the reason your sold for less was that yours was a "Vincerro de Meglio" and the other, more pricey one was a "de Melio". Also, yours was missing one string and this other was missing 5.

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## guitharsis

Thanks, Jim. Yes, I've crossed the line . . .

Now, I have two DeMeglios. My first bowlback was a pretty, rather ornate Stridente ordered from Pamela's, UK, in October 2004. Since then, besides the DeMeglios, I've acquired a Ceccherini, a Marcelli (German) and the Ciani. 

As a way of paying it back for the first bowlback I won the money for at a raffle, I donated the Marcelli, which was a very nice mando with an equally nice case, to an auction to raise funds for my high school class' next reunion. The person who purchased it, a guitar playing attorney, is now taking mandolin lessons and loves it.

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## Martin Jonas

Nice one, Doreen. It's this one, isn't it (I think the Ebay number in your post had an extraneous digit in it)? Looks to be in fine condition, and that's a decent price for it. More frets, too, than most of them. I strongly suspect that the "crack" at the headstock/neck joint is no such thing but rather the normal transition from veneered neck to stained headstock. The first time I saw one of these, I thought there was a crack, too. Good to see the tailpiece cover present, although it's upside down and pushed under the strings. Looks like the "anchor" part that attaches to the tailpiece pegs is either missing or bent. But that's trivial: this one looks in unusually good condition, really.

There've been a lot of de Meglios on Ebay UK lately, with a wide range of conditions and a wide range of winning bids. As usual, no correlation between the former and the latter...

Martin

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## guitharsis

Martin,
Thanks! Yes that's the one. Thanks too for the info. Didn't realize it had extra frets. I was hoping that the the "crack" at the headstock/neck joint was insignificant and it probably is just what you say it is. Interesting about the tailpiece cover   It is good to see one though. When I receive the deMeglio, I'll bring it in to the luthier who has worked on my others for string change (Lenzner) cleaning, checking for cracks etc. I'll also bring your post. It may claify some things for him. Thanks again. Doreen

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## Bob A

Ain't nobody here innarested in <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-1904-MARTIN-BOWL-BACK-MANDOLIN-with-CASE_W0QQitemZ200047689240QQihZ010QQcategoryZ1

0179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this Martin bowlback?</a>

Three+ days to run, no bids, they're asking $250.

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## Jim Garber

Go for it Bob... that Martin does look pretty nice. Maybe a good one for chey47?

Jim

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## brunello97

Ever since Eugene put a jinx on the price of Martin bowlbacks the prices have skyrocketed :~) 

Makes me want to put mine up on the market.

Now this one sits here tempting us (and fate.) 

Mick

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## Eugene

Sorry, Mick.

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## Bob A

Not for me, thanks, but it could be a steal for someone who needs a good bowlback.

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## Martin Jonas

Another Ceccherini, from the same seller as the best of my three. This one seems in good condition, but is more worn than mine. Pity the bridge is non-original -- it spoils the asthetic somewhat and may be inferior in function, too, although at least it seems to be a bowlback-appropriate bridge and seems to have been well-fitted. This is the first time I've seen an inlaid fretboard finial like this, and I'm not sure I like it.

Overall, very similar to mine, though, and should make a good instrument.

Martin

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## brunello97

Yes, I was eyeballing that one myself. Hmm, maybe I'll have to sell a Martin to raise the $$$.

Bob's bid up to $431 without hitting the reserve.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....=1&rd=1

Now if the kids would just be satisfied with an orange and some coal in their Christmas stockings.....

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Here's another Martin Style O with a side pickguard.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I think this 1919 de Meglio is the youngest one I've ever seen.

Not many American bowls in the UK, so this plain one is unusual here. Never heard of the maker, "Frank Jones, Walbridge, Orange, NJ".

This Loveri looks very clean indeed, and I wonder if the top has been sanded down.

Martin

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## guitharsis

Interesting deMeglio. My new/old deMeglio was made in 1903. The other one I have 1897! Both are 1A's, have the same woods, tuners, very similar scratch plate. The 1903 has a much larger label and an additional metal piece on the headstock, a different shaped neck and is a bit heavier than the other. Also has the original bridge (with brass insert). It will be interesting to see if they differ much in sound once in is cleaned, repaired (cracks on top) and restrung with Lenzners.

Really like the Loveri. Agree with you on the Ceccherini, Martin.

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## Jim Garber

> I think this 1919 de Meglio is the youngest one I've ever seen.


This one was dated 1923 -- very similar to the current one -- was on eBay in April of this year.

Jim

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## fretman45

Hi, I recently purchased a Vega # 2 bowl back off ebay. The instrument plays great and sounds terrific. It has a serial # of 17421. I was wondering if anyone could give me an approximation of this instrument's date. 
The label reads Vega guitars, mandolins,zithers,bandurrias.
Since Vega purchased Fairbanks banjo co. in 1904, I'm wondering if they ever added the word banjos to their label after that date? 
By the way, has anyone ever seen a Vega bandurria? I perform from time to time with a Philippine rondalla group playing Philippine bandurria (14 strings vs 12). Would love to perhaps acquire a Vega bandurria.

----------


## Jim Garber

I don't have a Vega Sn list but it is prob in the first decade of the 20th century. I have never seen a Vega bandurria nor do I know of anyone who has. I have a feeling they were just covering all bases since visit from the Spanish Students.

Jim

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## billkilpatrick

i tried to post this before but something went wrong:

have a look at the mandolin pictured here:

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard...d.php?tid=4650

... if this connection doesn't work, open the "ouds,ouds,ouds" section of the forum and look for "Al Tayyar fascinating elegance." the mandolin is fascinating and it is elegant.

- bill

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## Bob A

A lovely instrument. I have to ask whether the violin-style pegs are useable without fine tuners? Geared tuners are not as attractive, but certainly easier to use, I imagine.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Well, the de Santis copy posted by Davide Serracini here has friction pegs, albeit arranged in a flat headstock rather than a violin-syle peg box. Of course, that one may not be so easy to tune either.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

If I were building one I would use these tuners. I have heard that they are pretty good and as easy to use as geared ones.

BTW any clue as to who and where the luthier Al Tayyar is? The only search results I can find is on that oud board.

Jim

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## Neil Gladd

A Merrill aluminum mandolin on eBay. I'd like one of these someday to play Abt on, but not today.

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## Eugene

> have a look at the mandolin pictured here:
> 
> http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard...d.php?tid=4650


It looks nice, but I really suspect it was crafted to look nice. I don't think that old-fashioned tuning arrangement would be effective with the evidently modern stringing at concert pitch. Like others, I probably would have suggested either the use of geared tuners or a soundbox designed to be responsive to old-fashioned strings. The bridge behind the cant is interesting and harks back to ca. 1900 Vega.

I like oud and I like mandolin. I think there's a reason that over hundreds of years, their building techniques have come to be what they are and distinct. I still don't quite understand building for a visual aesthetic if practical use is limited. Having not spoken with the builder or handled the admittedly beautiful instrument, I don't know that it is purely a visual creature...but it sure looks that way.

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## Eugene

> A Merrill aluminum mandolin on eBay. I'd like one of these someday to play Abt on, but not today.


Sure enough, they're weird. I played a Merril guitar once. It was weird too.

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## Jim Garber

I doubt the Merrill will sell at that price. Did Abt play one?

Jim

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## Bob A

I'd like a Merrill someday too, but not for 8 centuries. Still, this one looks in better shape than some I've seen.

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## Neil Gladd

> I doubt the Merrill will sell at that price. Did Abt play one?


It's one of the instruments that he played, but used a few different ones over time. I think that he eventually endorsed Gibson. I just recently received my copy of the Abt biography, but have only skimmed through it, so far.

----------


## Jim Garber

He was an endorser of Washburn evidentally circa 1912.

Jim

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## fretman45

According to my circa 1912 Vega catalog, Abt also endorsed Vega, and Vega sold a special Abt model with maple ribs rather than Brazilian rosewood, which was more customary for Vega at that time.

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## Neil Gladd

> I doubt the Merrill will sell at that price.


You are correct, sir. It didn't.

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## Jim Garber

Yup, that Merrill is now listed at $96 cheaper starting bid. At that rate, in a couple of more rounds, it might sell.

Jim

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## Neil Gladd

I would expect a WINNING bid of about $500.

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## Jim M.

Darn, and I thought the Merrill I bought for $300 was appreciating faster than a Loar.   

Seriously, though, it's a great little instrument and an interesting piece of history. I read that the Merrill has the first mandolin-related patent in the US.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is an interesting mandolin made in 1904 by George Foley. I was beginning to think that there were no mandolin makers in the UK around that time and that all were imported from Italy. Is anyone familiar with this maker? It looks pretty nice and I like the eccentric treatment of the oblong soundhole and the scratchplate.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I've seen a Foley before, but I think it was dated a few years later. #It does look rather nice, with some cues (headstock, tuners, bridge, string downholders, onlaid scratchplate surrounding the soundhole) taken from de Meglio. #However, the unusual shape of soundhole and scratchplate and the lack of binding give it a distinctly different appearance. #Also, the soundhole is much closer to the bridge than on any other bowlback I've seen -- this one has 22 frets without needing a fretboard extension! #I wonder whether it has the de Meglio side holes. #I may be a nice instrument, but without knowing the maker, the starting bid is rather too high and I don't think it will sell. #There was a somewhat less classy looking Foley flatback on Ebay last month (here) which didn't sell at £150. #The flatback, with its raised pickguard, looks a much later design.

I've also come across the odd other UK-made mandolin, but nothing I was tempted by. #I believe the plentiful "Neapolitan College of Music" mandolinettos are British, too, but I don't know how they compare to, say, Howe-Orme.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

I think this is the new winner of the "fewest ribs" category: an impressive total of five, including the side ribs.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Technically, this Mozzani only has three ribs, but that is debatable.

The La Foley (I think that is his correct name) does have the soundhole somewhat forward, but I think the intention is to have that fretboard extending fully without going over the soundhole. However, if the maker did not follow Embergher's lead and hollowed out the extension, I would think that the extension would stifle the volume you would get from the soundboard.

I did ask the seller for additional photos. I wonder if the maker did copy Demeglio.

Jim

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## trebleclef528

La Foley (George Foley)mandolins.
I've seen quite a few of these which appeared to be sold from around 1890 to 1915. Unusual style I suppose for this period of time and a good guess that Foley did copy (like a lot of luthiers) some of the De Meglio features. A lot of his madolins were sold under the label of "Barnes and Mullens".You can see one similar to the "ebay" on at www.theacousticmusicco.co.uk also Hobgoblin in London have a 12 course for sale.

The Neapolitan School of Music (Mandoletto shape) and The Vienesse School of Music ( a variation of the manoletto shapemandolins are a bit of a mystery (The "schools" apparently did not exist... it was just a name given to the mandolins). Usually very good sounding instuments often with a picture on the whole of the back with a lady playing an instrument an again with features probably copied from De Meglio. Almost certain that the Neapolitan/Vienesse school mandolins were by the same builder although who that was remains a mystery (to me at least.

----------


## Jim Garber

Richard Walz told me about this mandola built and for sale by Daniel Larson. Very similar to one that Richard plays. For more info contact Daniel: dan@daniellarson.com

Long scale length. I guess it could be strung as an octave mandolin as well.

Jim

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## Eugene

I played that very instrument this summer at the Lute Society of America convention. The visual aesthetic is classic Larson quirky. The sound is very nice.

----------


## Bob A

Interesting way of attaching the armrest; easier no doubt than building up the rim in traditional fashion, but I'm not enamored of the screw look. And the description mentions ametal tailpiece, not the ivory-looking one in place. Then there's the handsome mahogany bowl; again, I'd prefer more trad woods. 

All that aside, it's an attractive enough instrument. Peghead reminds me of the early early Neapolitans. I suspect it's a budget-buster, alas.

----------


## Bob A

There's a nice <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/historische-Luigi-Embergher-Orchester-Mandoline-1923_W0QQitemZ170056489929QQihZ007QQcatego
ryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">1923 Embergher</a> on ebay. I'd chase it myself, if only I had any money left.

----------


## Jim Garber

> There's a nice <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/historische-Luigi-Embergher-Orchester-Mandoline-1923_W0QQitemZ170056489929QQihZ007QQcatego
> 
> ryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">1923 Embergher</a> on ebay. I'd chase it myself, if only I had any money left.


Yeah, I saw that one. Orchestra Model 3. Once I figure out if I like these as playing instruments, that would be my choice for model. The lowest in the hierarchy with a fluted back. I, too, am tapped out and am awaiting my Tipo A from the UK which is done. (Photos to follow its arrival).

I predict that this Model 3 will go for over 3000. Prob needs 300-500 worht of work to make it playable, I would think.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

Indeed, the mandolins and mandoliola(s) by Daniel Larson look very nice. Especially the manner inwhich he is combining Roman, Neapolitan and even American characteristics in his mandolin and mandoliola design. This also makes me eager to see a Larson mandoloncello. Very nice work!

There are some things that come up in my mind and one of them is that I would like to know why the fingerboard of the mandoliola extends free up to the 12th fret (instead of up to the 10th)? I do not see the need for this, but perhaps there is a plausible reason that I haven't imagined yet. Maybe Richard, you can tell us why Daniel Larson made this choise for his mandoliolas? 

Also I like to know whether the top at the height of the crank is straight or curved. From the images of the Larson mandolins and the mandoliola (on the #Larson Mandola Webpage and the Larson Mandolin Webpage) I can not see much of a curve. Not even if there is a slightly curved soundboard. But maybe this is because of the photos. #It is however an important aspect that I like to see very much in healthy (and especially modern and newly) mandolins made by makers who are relatively new to the mandolin making business. 
Perhaps Richard can inform us also about this with regard to the Larson instruments.


Best regards,

Alex.

----------


## Eugene

I asked Dan about the neck-body joint at 12 on this particular instrument. It was just an experiment, and I think this is the only piece he's built this way. When we met this summer, he had this long-neck mandola, a more typical mandola/mandoliola, and a liuto cantabile with him.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Thanks Eugene,

That sounds even more interesting; Mandolins, Mandolas, Mandoliolas, Mandoloncellos and now even a Liuto cantabile! 
And what about the curve of the table; did you notice the curve or is it flat (straight)? 

Best, 

Alex.

----------


## Eugene

If I recall of those three I saw this summer, they were near to dead flat, although I believe he does induce some arch to most of his Neapolitan-type instruments. I remember discussing this with Dan, but I unfortunately don't remember details of the discussion.

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## RSW

My new mandola from Dan has a slightly outcurved top (alla Embergher) and it does makes a difference to the sound. My Rocca (Genova, 1905) also has an outcurved top. One of my Larson mandolins has this, the other is more straight. The liuto cantabile by Dan which is owned by a french mandolinist colleague of mine also has the curve to the top. Dan will listen and incorporate any ideas that make sense and I highly recommend his work to those who know what they want. The available long necked mandola was indeed an experiment, but quite a beautiful one at that. I only tried it for a minute so I cannot offer a valid comparison to the one I have now. I prefer the neck join at the 10th fret.

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## Jim Garber

This 1969 Calace 16bis (I think) just appeared on eBay.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Either 1892 (according to the seller) or 1897 Calace with a label in French and two other labels. Might be an import. Not in great shape but this one looks different and older than many I have seen.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

For those following his stellar career and live vicariously thru him, check out this Eugene Braig Artist Model.

And another Martin bowlback ... not the artist model this time.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Check this one out.



Jim

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## Eugene

> For those following his stellar career and live vicariously thru him, check out this Eugene Braig Artist Model.


Well, I'm flattered, but I don't really have anything to do with this mandolin...and neither did my great grandfather, Eugene C. Braig Sr. I've never seen anything quite like it. The combination of plain tuner plates without engraving and fancy pearl buttons is odd. The fingerboard extension to 22 above Martin's typical full 20 is interesting too. The frets look pretty worn. The serial number places production in 1903, which is the first year of Handley's commissioned 6a model. I'd guess this is one of those first four made in that year.

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## Bob A

Too modest, Eugene. Had the Martin family had advance knowledge of your prowess, there's certainly have been a Braig Signature Model.

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## Neil Gladd

> For those following his stellar career and live vicariously thru him, check out this Eugene Braig Artist Model.


It's clearly a cheap knock-off, as it doesn't have the signature tuning head.

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## brunello97

I've heard that some of those Olentangy-Rim mandolins are pretty nice. 

With the proper set-up, of course.

Mick

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## Eugene

Why, you... I oughta...

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## brunello97

Now, Eugene, no dis intended. Let's not mix foootbal with mandolins. (As if I had a clue.) I've got my albeit modest Martin on my lap this evening, droning the Song of the Chanter and plotting my footsteps along Bill's (seasonally adjusted) Wenceclas-ian path towards the sheer bliss of pipe-dom. 'Tis the season and all.

Mick

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## Eugene

...And, of course, my feigned irritation was entirely facetious.

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## Jim Garber

> Originally Posted by  (Bob A @ Dec. 02 2006, 23:21)
> 
> There's a nice <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/historische-Luigi-Embergher-Orchester-Mandoline-1923_W0QQitemZ170056489929QQihZ007QQcatego
> 
> 
> ryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">1923 Embergher</a> on ebay. I'd chase it myself, if only I had any money left.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I saw that one. Orchestra Model 3. Once I figure out if I like these as playing instruments, that would be my choice for model. The lowest in the hierarchy with a fluted back. I, too, am tapped out and am awaiting my Tipo A from the UK which is done. (Photos to follow its arrival).
> ...


We are getting up there for the Embergher 3. Over 2000 and 3.5 hours to go.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> I predict that this Model 3 will go for over 3000. Prob needs 300-500 worth of work to make it playable, I would think.


Am I good or what? Frantic bidding in the last 39 seconds from 2100 to 3110. Then again, perhaps the winner reads this thread...

Too bad the seller hides the bidder names. Now we don't know who won it. Anyone from here?

Jim

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## Bob A

The Braig Signature Model Martin was relisted and snapped up by some lucky soul for $425 in a buy it now. Guess the seller lost his nerve.

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## Jim Garber

I was thinking and discussing with the artist himself about my buying it. Luckily it did get snapped up befvore I could get my stuff together. Primarily was the concern BTW that it needed a fret job, doable but more complicated with bar frets.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is a lovely(?) creation of the seller, promoted as <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1980s-era-original-folk-ART-MANDOLIN-w-HARD-SHELL-case_W0QQitemZ260062525912QQihZ016QQcate

goryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">1980's era folk art</a>. Could almost be worth it for the case...

Jim

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## Bob A

Actualy kind of neat. Could make it into a bud vase, lamp or jewelry box with a little effort. (I don't know if I'm kidding or not). As you say, it's worth it for the case alone.

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## Neil Gladd

> Actualy kind of neat. Could make it into a bud vase


I once saw a beautiful Vinaccia mandolin in someone's house on a corner shelf, filled with dirt and with a plant growing out of the soundhole. It had a few cracks, but nothing that wouldn't have been easily repairable. It was extremely painful to see.

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## Bob A

Sorry for the painful reminder, Neil. Makes me cringe just to read it.

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## Jim Garber

I recall Bob saying that his Salsedo is one of his favorites. One just showed up here with a body split and what looks like a piece os veneer missing from the neck. The seller took the strings off, fearing that the neck had a crack. He is also surprised at the amount of interest and the number of emails he has gotten on this mandolin.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

That Salsedo looks very nice, but the neck is a big concern. It might just be a veneer-only problem, but I rather suspect not.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

I wonder about this mandola, supposedly made last year by an Australian luthier, Andrew Rowe. There's no maker by that name in the Cafe builders database, and the original price when new listed by the seller (Aus$550 equal to US$430) seems rather low for a heavily decorated handmade instrument. As a luthier instrument, I might be interested as I've been thinking about a bowlback 'dola for a while, but the inlay looks far too Antonio-Tsai-like for comfort, so I think I'll take a pass.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

This is the result of overstringing on fine bowlbacks (in this case a nice Angara & d'Isanto).

Martin

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## Eugene

> I wonder about this mandola, supposedly made last year by an Australian luthier, Andrew Rowe.


Hmmm...I'm curious to, but share your concerns.

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## Graham McDonald

I have a pretty comprehensive database of instrument builders here in Australia, but I have not come across Andrew Rowe. Not to say he isn't out there, but someone building instruments that fancy looking would have hit the radar in this country, I suspect. 

cheers

graham

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## Martin Jonas

Mystery solved: the seller bought it on Ebay from this Australian seller. Looking at his other instruments, he is quite clearly a reseller for the Vietnamese-made instruments of the Tsai school, with all the taste issues that entails.

Martin

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

Perhaps worth to get info about...? 
A rare Orchestra Mandolin model No.3 by PASQUALE PECORARO (with some interesting 5/5bis soloist model features).
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/MANDOLINO-DA-CONCERTO-PASQUALE-PECORARO_W0QQitemZ180064686580QQihZ008QQcategoryZ1  0179QQrdZ





1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting" target="_blank">Click here to the Ebay Webpage</a>


Best,

Alex

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## Bob A

I've always wanted an Egildo, but perhaps not <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Mandoline-EGILDO-n-35-1925-copie-Emberger_W0QQitemZ250060938259QQihZ015QQcategoryZ1  04485QQ

ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this one.</a>

The Pecoraro is interesting but rather pricey. Not much info from the seller, who seems to have put several high-dollar instruments up for sale for his first excursion onto ebay.

----------


## billkilpatrick

i suddenly woke up to the beauty of the bowlback mandolin ... the one i've had for some months now. the "italian style" thread in the "Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk" section of the message board forced me to listen to "it" - the sound of the bowlback - as opposed to the sound i was wanting it to produce.

this has happened before with some instruments i've owned - expecting it ... wanting it to make a sound it wasn't able to produce ... and being unhappy.

now, thanks to the "silent fountain" recordings, i see that this is what the instrument is supposed to sound like ... eureka! ...

the big question is (in light of jim's incredible collection) ... can i afford to even be here?

- bill (skint)

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## brunello97

Satori in Toscana, Bill? 

I like how you describe hearing the instrument again for the first time. I think those are rare and wonderful moments.

Someone from SF would know better than I, but in the few pictures I've seen of Matteo he was playing an archtop. (Not that there is anything wrong with that....) Does anyone know what is used on the recordings? #I like the Silent Fountain tape a lot, particularly the very home-made recording quality. 

I thought you had that nice Galiano fall into your lap? #Or was it an L+H?

Mick

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## Neil Gladd

> I've always wanted an Egildo, but perhaps not <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Mandoline-EGILDO-n-35-1925-copie-Emberger_W0QQitemZ250060938259QQihZ015QQcategoryZ1  04485QQ
> 
> ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this one.</a>


Oh, Dave...

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## Jim Garber

> Does anyone know what is used on the recordings? I like the Silent Fountain tape a lot, particularly the very home-made recording quality.


"Silent Fountain" was originally issued as an LP in 1984. Here is a photo of Matteo and Gino DiMichele. Matteo is playing what looks like a 1950s Gibson A50. 

Jim

----------


## Ali

Hi guys. There is a nice looking Pecoraro for sale on Italian Ebay - got 3 days left. Its an oldish one by the look of it.
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/MANDOLINO-DA-CONCERTO-PASQUALE-PECORARO_W0QQitemZ180064686580QQihZ008QQcategoryZ1  0179QQrdZ
&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;  &lt;br&gt;1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting" target="_blank">Pecoraro on Italian Ebay</a>
Also there might be an early 1970's Pecoraro "5b" style coming on market in New Year - possibly only for sale to recommended players. Any ideas? Know of anyone worthy? The seller wants it to go to a playing home.
ALI

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Jim, for the great photo. No suprise that you would turn something up.....It looks like some kind of mandolin lapel pin on Matteo's jacket. The only photos I'd seen of Matteo were in Sheri Mignano's first book. Maybe I'll have to get the second for a holiday read.
Of those who knew Matteo here, any idea whether he played a bowlback as well? (Certainly at some point in his long life.)
Mick

----------


## Bob A

Hello Ali, nice to hear from you again.

Curiousity impels the question: how do the various Pecoraro instruments vary, tonally and otherwise, by age or style. I have a model 5 (with plain peghead) from 1962, which sounds pretty Embergerish, from what I can gather by listening to recordings. But various sources state that the Embergher sound, and the Pecoraro sound, has a fair amount of variation. Most of us here have very little opportunity to explore these instruments, rare as they seem to be. Impressions from someone with broad experience and ability would be of great interest.

Insofar as disposing of a 5b is concerned, I'm unworthy as well as impecunious, but 'twould be nice to see it passed on to someone here.

----------


## gus garelick

Great photo of Matteo and Gino, taken near Aquatic Park in San Francisco many years ago. Matteo appears to be holding a Gibson A-50 (I have the same mandolin, so I'm pretty sure that's what it is). I saw him frequently at the Caffe Trieste back in the 70s and early 80s, when I lived in San Francisco, and I don't recall ever seeing him playing a bowlback. Not that he didn't own one. He owned many instruments, including some mandolins that he built himself. He often used one of his own mandolins at the caffe, with a built-in pickup. This was definitely not a bowlback. But I can't say exactly which one he used on "The Silent Fountain" recording. There are only a few folks around who would remember the actual recording. You could check with the owners of the Caffe Trieste. They might know.

----------


## Jim Garber

What looks to be to be a relatively recent <a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/mandolino-Raffaele-Calace-Classico-B_W0QQitemZ130060641433QQihZ003QQcategoryZ10179QQs  sPage
NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Calace Classico B</a>.

Jim

----------


## Ali

Hi Bob,
Its 00.28 and I've just driven back from a concert in thick fog so my mind is a bit blurred but I thought I would answer you question now as best I can......
To be totally honest both Emberghers and Pecoraro's vary in sound so much its hard to know where to start. As a general thing I would say that Pecoraro's have a less "immediate" sound to the player but possibily a louder and more strident one to the listener and therefore are slightly unrewarding to play in some ways but are a very effective instrument...... I had a 1985 Pecoraro "5b" style which now belongs to George Hadjinephytou, my Postgrad Gold Medal winning student at Trinity College a few years ago. I never really liked it. It was a very chunky heavy instrument with a very "closed" sound to me but George seemed to bring it to life. I would say that it possibly doesn't have the depth of tone of my Embergher. Generally I would say that is a general trait of Pecoraros compared to Embergher's.
I have a 1956 "Embergher" (?!) that belonged to Hugo D'Alton and I just can't get it to behave. It "barks" at you no matter what you do! Its almost impossible to make it subtle! When I got my 1933 Embergher in 1988 Hugo was very unimpressed with its projection and said it was similar to his brothers 1928(off the top of my head, might have been 1926) rosewood backed Embergher 5b..... lacking in projection and clarity. I agree that my instrument was very mellow and soft then in comparison to many Emberghers, but then it had hardly been played since new except possibly for a few years by Albert Bracony...... #18 years on, it now has a wonderfully strident but rich voice and fills most concert halls up to 500 seats no problem!
So, I'm not being very helpful, except that, for me, to sum up.... most pre-1939 Embergher 5b's are better overall and more responsive than most late Pecoraro's and that maybe early Pecoraro's are more balanced instruments than late Emberghers! One thing about Pecoraro's is that they have tended to get chunkier as they got later and if one of the things a player struggles with is the width/depth of an Embergher neck but they like the basic ideals of the instrument - then - try a late(ish) Pecoraro!
You did ask!
Anyway I'm biaised..... I have not ever held or played an Embergher or Pecoraro that I would rather play than mine! Sorry. 
ALI

----------


## Jim Garber

> I have a 1956 "Embergher" (?!) that belonged to Hugo D'Alton and I just can't get it to behave. It "barks" at you no matter what you do! Its almost impossible to make it subtle!


Aha! Just as I thought... these instruments take on the personalities of their owners, similar to dogs. I have heard some stories of Mr. D'Alton that corroborates that. 

BTW Ali, Martin, Alex, Ralf, et al... I hope to be joining the Embergher club before the end of the year. Nothing of the level as the instruments described, however. Stay tuned for more details.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

THanks much for your information, Ali. In some perverse way, I'm pleased to read that these instruments are in fact so variable, though I'd be hard pressed to explain my reasoning. ("Reasoning" is way too rational a word, under the circs).

I'm also pleased that you like yours best. I find myself feeling that way about some of my instruments - don't we all? - despite other examples that &gt;ought&lt; to be preferable. (Which is not to denigrate your mandolin, or mine!)

It aslo seems a truism that these things take on a cast or mojo from previous owners, which is one of the delights of having a "previously owned" instrument. I've found a few that have literally forced me to play in a way which is completely other than my style, such as it is, because of their having been played in that fashion by an earlier owner. Of course, most sane, rational folks look at me a little more oddly than usual when I make such assertions, but we're all friends here, so I feel I can get away with this kind of talk.

My Pecoraro is an early one (except of course he'd been making for Embergher for decades previous, so it's a relative term); it is in fact larger and more substantial than Jonathan Rudie's Embergher, which dates to the '20s. (But of course the Embergher firm had been gradually enlarging the instrument over the decades, it would seem). That's pretty much my only basis of comparison. Wish there were many more examples available.

----------


## Martin Jonas

They've done it again: here is a "restored" vintage Italian bowlback from our friends in Taiwan. However, there is one big difference to their previous efforts: this time the underlying bowlback is not a Vinaccia, but something much cheaper (A Luigi Gorradotti, whoever he was), and as a result, the instrument is really quite reasonably priced _if_ the restoration itself was done competently. Of course, there is still no excuse for adding all this extraneous inlay to what was actually a reasonably good looking mandolin. Still doesn't look too bad, all things considered. I'm trying to figure out what inlay is original. Clearly, the fretboard is new and rather regrettable, as is the inlay around the tailpiece and on the headstock. The scratchplate inlay may be original, as well as the rosette. The rope binding may be original, but the abalone strip next to it probably not. The bridge is certainly not old, and doesn't quite look right. Curiously, the strings are fabric-wound around the loops, which I think is now only done for the classier types of German strings (TI and Optima).

It could have been much worse: this is a newly-built bowlback offered by the same seller, for the same price.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

> THanks much for your information, Ali. In some perverse way, I'm pleased to read that these instruments are in fact so variable, though I'd be hard pressed to explain my reasoning. ("Reasoning" is way too rational a word, under the circs).


I've had only one opportunity for side-by-side comparison, when I compared my humble 1915 Tipo A with Frances Taylor's 1950s Embergher-labelled Pecoraro 5bis. I was struck by the obvious similarity in tone -- there is really no confusing them with other quality Italian bowlbacks. Strangely (or maybe not) I thought that mine was rather more responsive than the 5bis.

I've also played Ali's 5bis (briefly) and her Pecoraro mandola (rather longer, as I was volunteering for the mandola part in her workshop), both of which are great instruments. However, as I didn't yet have my Embergher at the time, I can't directly compare them. I do remember that the 5bis was very rich in tone indeed, but that I was much to scared to touch it to coax a decent volume out of it.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

> What looks to be to be a relatively recent <a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/mandolino-Raffaele-Calace-Classico-B_W0QQitemZ130060641433QQihZ003QQcategoryZ10179QQs  sPage
> 
> NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Calace Classico B</a>.


This one finished with no bids at all despite the very modest starting price of 800 Euro!! What's going on? Of course, he only offered shipment to Italy, but shouldn't _somebody_ there be interested in picking up a Classico B at this rock bottom price?

Martin

----------


## Bob A

I'm surprised now you mention it. Of course the cutouts at the end of the fretboard are less than lovely IMO.

----------


## Jim Garber

I find those odd-looking as well, but those are std on Classico As and Bs.

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

_REALLY?_ Wow... I never noticed! (i.e. that they were "standard") What a weird and unattractive feature... When I first saw them, I thought the poor instrument in question had been butchered by some well-meaning, but inept "customizer". But... *gasp*... that is an ex-WORKS spec of the Classico? Ouch...

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is the best photo I could find showing those "fingers" fretboard extension.



Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

I just noticed this very nice-looking 1899 Martin Style 5 on Bernunzio's site. Wait, is this one Bob's? I can't recall if you have a 5 or a 6 (I thought 6).

Doreen have you seen and/or played this one?

Jim

----------


## guitharsis

Jim,
I think that is the one I saw when at Bernunzio's. I didn't play it though. It is nice looking!
Doreen

----------


## Bob A

Nope, not one of mine. You're correct in recalling a style 6. Like yours, patiently awaiting resto. 

T Crandall himself, in a conversation this afternoon, (I call him once a month in a foredoomed effort to evoke guilt) told me my mandols were nearing the top of his pile. He says we mandolinists suffer because he tends to work on bigger instruments first, in order to clear a path to the door.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Like yours, patiently awaiting resto.


Sorry, Bob. My 6 is post-resto, thanks to the relatively speedy Mr. DeCava. We had some adjustments to action but it does play nicely now.

That is now playable along with my Vega 3 and my Calaces, tho these bowlbacks seem to change mightily with the vicissitudes of the seasons. I see why many players have different bridges for different seasons.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

I just came across this store showing some relatively inexpensive Italian made bowlbacks. Anybody know these?

Actually, this one is the page just showing the mandolins.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

> Nope, not one of mine. You're correct in recalling a style 6. Like yours, patiently awaiting resto. 
> 
> T Crandall himself, in a conversation this afternoon, (I call him once a month in a foredoomed effort to evoke guilt) told me my mandols were nearing the top of his pile. He says we mandolinists suffer because he tends to work on bigger instruments first, in order to clear a path to the door.


As he has three of my bigger instruments, I'm not buyin' that line.

----------


## brunello97

Interesting site, Jim, though the pictures leave something to be desired. Still a mahogany neck and walnut bowl.....Is the assymmetrical bridge a typical Roman thing?

I did a little sleuthing and turned up this liutaio in Sicily:

http://www.paginegialle.it/pg....r=31332


Has anyone any further information on Alfredo?

Some of his work looks quite similar to that on the Sorrento site, but the mandolas don't appear in the catalog. The "Embergh" model might appeal to some of y'all. (Or maybe not.) I'll send him a note next week and see if it is the same guy.

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

This may be an interesting one for those who didn't find an Embergher under their Christmas tree -- a German Goldklang mandolin that is quite clearly a direct copy of an Embergher Tipo A. Looks pretty well-made, too, and at that price probably worth a Christmas gamble.

Martin

----------


## billkilpatrick

> I just came across this store showing some relatively inexpensive Italian made bowlbacks. Anybody know these?
> 
> Actually, this one is the page just showing the mandolins.
> 
> Jim


jim - 

the napoletano model looks just like the one i bought - and sold - almost immediately. #i paid something like 120 for it at the time. #they also put these up for auction on ebay italia:

http://cgi.ebay.it/MANDOLI....6723974

you know this bowlback thread much better than i - i posted photos of the instrument here some time back. #i didn't really appreciative the bowlback sound then but i suspect that at that price (142 on the site you mention and 137 starting price on ebay) you'ld be getting what you pay for. 

- bill

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Bill, for the Enzo Greco Experience etube performance. I liked the showmanship, sort of. The mandolin didn't sound quite so good to my ear, but he seems a good player.

I wonder if the these ebaytube videos are a wave of the future?

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

i have a mac and can't see the windows video download - is there a possible "youtube" duplicate?

----------


## Jim Garber

I am usually on a Mac as well. You can run Windows Media Player on a Mac. Just have to download it from MS.

Jim

----------


## billkilpatrick

i couldn't find a mac-related down load on the site provided by ebay.

besides ... i was born in september ... which makes me a virgo ...

(blush)

----------


## billkilpatrick

isn't anyone going to ask what my "sign" has to do with it? ...

----------


## JimD

> isn't anyone going to ask what my "sign" has to do with it? ...


Hey Bill -- What does your sign have to do with it?

----------


## billkilpatrick

answer: "i haven't been screwed by microsoft yet!"

heh ...

heh ...

(fiverforyouinthepostjim ... )

----------


## Bob A

Bada-Boom.

Rough stuff for 6AM, guys.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "...a German Goldklang mandolin that is quite clearly a direct copy of an Embergher Tipo A."


Hmm... _visually_, at least, rather faithful. I wish I had seen this earlier.  Oh, well... Martin, have you any _aural_ experience with Goldklang instruments? Speaking for myself, while I know at the very least the _names_ of several such German brands, I confess total ignorance of the actual quality of their products. Being ignorant, I am also ambivalent: one such creature might be looking for a New York home...

----------


## Bob A

Pity you missed it, Victor. Just one of the many perils in working for a living. I keep thinking there must be a better way; if only I weren't working I'm sure I could think of it.

Anyway, are you really into an Embergher? Don't forget the very narrow board; I recall you describing your bassist hands, and wonder . . .

----------


## vkioulaphides

Perils, indeed, Bob.  Ironically, however, I am enjoying a lovely, 10-DAY vacation right now ah, the beauties of academic administration!  I just wasn't looking, that's all.

Work does creep up on one: incidentally, I have survived a change of management-guard at the opera, and thus continue on the orchestra's roster#read: the dangers and insecurity inherent in freelancing. I have also been offered to teach a whole bunch of new classes at the conservatory (the one I teach at, not the one on whose administration I am). In my free time (HA!), I am writing as much music as I can. Hardly a time to surf, of course.

Yes, size _does_ matter. Yet, at this price, the gamble would not have been unreasonable; the worst outcome would have been that I wouldn't have been able to get my paws around the thing, quietly despaired over a few months, then sold the Embergheresque Goldmark to someone daintier of fingers than I. Au contraire, setting eyes and heart on a REAL Embergher is, ah... _not QUITE as reasonable_.  

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Martin Jonas

Victor: sorry, no direct experience of Goldklang instruments. It's one of those brands one comes across fairly regularly on Ebay. The instruments looks generally well-made, even if I somehow usually find them a bit lacking in charisma. Maybe it's the name that gives an impression of anonymous stolidity, being rather generic ("Goldklang" is "gold tone") instead of identified with a named luthier. However, the Ebay one I thought was at least visually a very good facsimile of an Embergher. They even got the recurve of the bowl pretty well. Most German Embergher-esque mandolins seem to take much greater liberties with the concept. The grain of the soundboard is much wider than Luigi would ever have used, but I find that German luthiers usually use fairly wide grain.

Ian may well be able to say more: I think he's got much more direct experience with German-made instruments.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

I agree, on all counts. I wonder, however, whether the anonymous luthier(s) behind the admittedly stolid and generic brand-name also used somewhat wider _fingerboards_; if so, that would count as a plus, not a minus in my book: Embergheresque, yet panda-bear-paw-adaptable.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is a rather gleaming de-Meglio clone (branded "Luigi Mario Dosio") for sale from a music shop. This one has been cleaned and polished all over and seems cosmetically immaculate. No idea about tone, of course. Even the old case is in quite good condition, and unlike some of the clones, this one has the nice brownish tuner buttons that de Meglio used. Sleeve protector is non-original though, probably pilfered from another instrument.

Or how about a job lot: get three bowlbacks for one low Buy-It-Now. All three look pretty downmarket and anonymous, though.

Isn't "Dolphin" the brand name used by Carlo for the new bowlbacks built by his luthier co-operative? Presumably this Dolphin has a rather different pedigree.

This presumably is a bit of folk art -- interesting grain for an instrument top...

More folk art, this one with dodgy mock-medieval scratchplate.

This one is genuinely unusual: it looks like one of those super-abundant German guitar-lutes, i.e. instruments made to look vaguely like a lute but strung and tuned like a guitar. This one, however, is strung like a mandola, or possibly a mandocello. No idea of scale length.

Martin

----------


## Fliss

That job lot went quickly, Martin! Quite a pretty trio. Number 2's soundhole decoration and edging looks very similar to Dave's "resurrection" De Mureda, although the headstock looks to be a different shape.

Fliss

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## Martin Jonas

This is a rather curious mandola. Brand new, alternating dark/light ribs, and not only branded "Stentor", but having Stentor's logo as part of a weird scratchplate design. Any guesses where this may have been made? The alternating ribs would suggest Eastern Europe, but as far as I can see this doesn't match any current Strunal or Hora designs. Stentor's online catalogue lists only one bowlback mandola, and it doesn't look much like this one. Oh well, one more mystery that's unlikely to be solved anytime soon.

Interesting case, anyway.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Marco Onorati has this 1888 Giovanni De Santis listed in the classified.

I think this one is the same one on his site.

Beautiful label:


Jim

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## Bob A

An attractive instrument, that De Santis.

My constant gripe with Eurodealers: why do they never list a price? Very annoying, and difficult to even begin contemplating a purchase, especially from sites with multiple interesting instruments.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here's a TACO mandolin -- no, not Mexican, but German made Embergher copy. Looks okay without the finesse of a real Embergher.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Uhm... I would dare say rather "without ANY finesse at all".

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## Martin Jonas

Indeed, Victor, which was the reason why I thought the Goldklang was unusual, being a graceful German Embergher copy.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

No purist, I. For example, I will gladly sip chilled _prosecco_, which I enjoy greatly, as I do many (dry) Italian _spumanti_ while, of course, there are those who will scoff automatically, as if by knee-jerk, "It's no champagne". Well... yes, I KNOW it's not; that, however, does not prevent me from enjoying all the pleasant things it IS: light, crisp, dry, effervescent. 

Ditto on German instruments modeled after Italian ones: if they look graceful enough, and, most importantly, if they *sound* good, why not? On the other hand, decent construction and, as a corollary, good playability can be expected as a hallmark of most German instruments, even the most humble ones. 

Wallhangers, "on the THIRD hand" (as Jim G. aptly writes), be they German, Italian, Greek, Korean, Japanese, or whatever, well... let those hang on walls. #

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## Bob A

Here's a few mandolins with strange holes:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTICO-MANDOLINO-NAPOLETANO-LUIGI-RUOCCO_W0QQitemZ140067582251QQihZ004QQcategoryZ101  79QQrd







Z1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">a Ruocco</a>

and a brothers <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLINE-MANDOLINO-MANDOLINI-19EME-FRATELLI-HUMBERTO_W0QQitemZ290065816154QQihZ019QQcateg




oryZ104485QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Humberto</a>

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/GREAT-INLAY-DOUBLE-NECKS-MANDOLIN-LA-HANDWORK-1468_W0QQitemZ330067834398QQihZ014QQcategory



Z10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">strange neck(s)</a>

and the ever-over-the-top <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Inlay-classical-bowl-back-mandolin-MD1424_W0QQitemZ330066384208QQihZ014QQcategoryZ101  79QQr


dZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">strange inlays</a>

----------


## billkilpatrick

the concept on the ruocco looks like it might have been a wedding theme - interlocking, double rings - but the luthier made a mistake on the upper join.

would it be fair to assume that both these would need some fixing? ... warped neck, et al?

----------


## Martin Jonas

The Humberto is either a relabelled or a copied Loveri: that scratchplate shape, headstock, tailpiece design and rear exhausts are all very characteristic. A Loveri would have a celluloid inlay in the scratchplate, rather than this strange burgundy colour, and it would have the name "Carlo Loveri" stamped on the tailpiece. No closeup of the tailpiece to see whether there is a name stamped on it.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

A rather nice looking tenor mandola by <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/BOWLBACK-MANDOLA-DIETER-HOPF-MEISTERINSTRUMENT-VON-1986_W0QQitemZ130064433295QQihZ003QQcat

egoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Dieter Hopf</a>. Price is pretty reasonable at the moment.

Hopf's Website shows new one with a price of over 2000.

Has anyone played his instruments?

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

That Hopf looks rather nice: I might go for it if it stays reasonable. The seller notes that the bridge hasn't been fitted very well and doesn't make good contact with the soundboard, which rather begs the question of why he hasn't fixed it.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

With a scale of 45 cm, I would assume that this is tuned one octave below a mandolin? Good luck, Martin!



Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

A Greek-made mandolin by <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Greek-Mandolin-Sakis-Brand-New_W0QQitemZ190066083078QQihZ009QQcategoryZ10179Q  QssPageNameZW
DVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Sakis</a>.

Jim

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## billkilpatrick

just changed strings on my bowlback to a lighter gauge (martin) and noticed - as i slowly tuned it up (like a good boy) that two steps down ( ebf#c# instead of gdae) my mandolin sounds a whole lot better - i mean a whole lot better. this is not surprising as when i hum into it, "e" (as noted on the chromatic tuner) is the note which resonates most loudly and most sympathetically.

most instruments have this inherent, internal note - i was just wondering:

- if "e" is common amongst bowlback mandolins?

- at what date was the gdae tuning established as standard?

- does your bowlback resonate differently (better) to a lower tuning as well?

... i can always crank it back up to the pukkah tuning and join the orchestra but in the meantime ... .

- bill

----------


## Martin Jonas

Actually, Bill, what I wonder most about in your post is the opening phrase:




> just changed strings on my bowlback to a _lighter_ gauge (martin)


What gauges did you have on before, then? The lightest gauge Martin make is 10-34, which is already slightly on the heavy side for bowlbacks. Anything heavier than that is _too_ heavy and is likely to strangle it. I wonder whether you hear an improvement in tone because previously, you had overstrung the instrument and now, with lighter strings and lower pitch, is the first time it's actually able to resonate properly. Have you tried tuning up to pitch with the lighter strings?

Martin

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## Bob A

Not my personal cup of tea, and I have very little Deutsch, but perhaps <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOCELLO-Mandoloncello-Mandolinencello-Mandoline_W0QQitemZ200064408811QQihZ010QQcategory
Z10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">a bowlback mandocello</a> moght be to someone's taste hereabouts?

----------


## harper

In response to the question from Mick on Dec 24, I have an Alfredo Privitera bowl back that I bought in Venice about 18 months ago. I know little about bowl backs, but I found the Alfredo to be better than my 1964 Bruno (New York) and my 1975 Suzuki. The only other bowl back I have played was an old William C. Stahl, which felt lovely and had a sweet and ringing voice. My Alfredo is for sale in the classifieds, as I am concentrating on learning to play my Rigel A+.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Two interesting leads:

1. Jim, nothing comes up under the link for the Greek mandolin. "Sakis" is the casual trade-name for the firm of Dionysios Matsikas, the only "mass-producer" of bowlbacks in Greece. I'd love to see it.

2. The mandocello is Embergheresque, insofar as it has a V-neck and radiused fingerboard; there are, of course, also other such specs. Interesting... I am, alas, so pressed for time to even play enough _mandoLIN_ these days, as I am trying to integrate the new job into the lifestyle, that acquiring a mandoCELLO, even at rock-bottom price, seems rather futile.  But others may have the needed time (and space) so, why not? It sure looks healthy enough...

----------


## Jim Garber

> 1. Jim, nothing comes up under the link for the Greek mandolin. "Sakis" is the casual trade-name for the firm of Dionysios Matsikas, the only "mass-producer" of bowlbacks in Greece. I'd love to see it.


Victor:
I fixed the link above. 

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Interesting mandocello, too. There's a virtual twin of this one (same maker but in rosewood, not maple) shown here. Don't know anything about Belcanto, though. The seller's description reads a bit odd as he appears to have done a bit of destruction testing prior to putting the intrument up for sale:




> The instrument is sold without strings (the strings in the photographs are only intended to illustrate the bridge position). (...) To test the structural integrity under tension, I have strung it up with steel strings. I could not see any warping or twisting. The phosphor bronze strings shown in the first photo did not survive this test.


By the way, that website linked above has an interesting name for the mandobass: "Tremolobass". Never heard that one before. Did people really play tremolo on the mandobass? It also refers to the US mandola (CGDA) as an "alto mandolin", and said that although it's the logical instrument for string quartet repertoire, it never managed to gain ground on the "mandola" (i.e. GDAE). A slightly German-centric view of affairs, I think.

So many intriguing instruments, so little space... Shall I go for the mandola, for the mandocello, or for the Old Wave oval hole I've just seen...

Martin

----------


## harper

Does anyone know about this seller on eBay? He is located in New South Wales, Australia, and is selling a bowlback mandola with inlay reminiscent of those made in Taiwan. Are these instruments good? Thanks. mandola on eBay

----------


## Martin Jonas

Although most of these are sold by Ebay sellers based in Taiwan (mainly Antonio Tsai and Bruce Wei), I understand from various other threads that all of them are actually made in Vietnam and when you order them from Taiwan, the box you receive will be dispatched from Vietnam.

I've had a look at that seller before, and I'm convinced that these are from the same Vietnamese workshops -- it's the same hardware and the same asthetics as their other instruments. There is a Cafe member who has one of these bowlback mandolas (see here), but I think he is a beginner on mando and so may not be able to compare tone quality with other instruments.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> Does anyone know about this seller on eBay? He is located in New South Wales, Australia, and is selling a bowlback mandola with inlay reminiscent of those made in Taiwan. Are these instruments good? Thanks. mandola on eBay


You are correct, I believe, that these are similar to the instruments sold by some of the Taiwanese eBay sellers like Taisamlu and Inlaidartist. You can read about some of the other instruments on some other threads. Paul Hostetter has had direct experience with many of these. Someone esle was given a bowlback as a Xmas present and thought it was all right. I think these are generally made in Vietnam and are somewhat inconsistent in terms of quality and workmanship.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

*Finally!* My long-awaited 1913 Embergher A arrived on New Year's day.

You can see some pics and hear some of the story on the post a picture thread. Scroll down some to get to it.

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

Congratulations on your Embergher! May you enjoy it to the fullest; I look _even more_ forward to Carlo's workshop, in light of said instrument's expected sighting. # 

The Greek mandolin is typical of the genre. Silly seller, of course, to call something both modern and *mass*-produced "collectible". # But it looks just fine. The trouble I have seen (and others, like Alex Knapek, have experienced hands-on) is that some of these instruments come out of the factory sloppily set up. Ergo, I prefer the otherwise VERY similar instruments of the Kevorkian shop in downtown Athens. 

For upscale Greek instruments (and, of course, _prices_) one ought to talk to either Karolos Tsakirian --in a neighborhood that never fails to subject me to my father's bawdy sense of humor-- or Christos Spourdalakis, down by the ancient dry-docks of Pireus. Further north, in our beautiful co-capital of Thessaloniki, there are a couple of other Class-A luthiers, who deserve due notice.

This creature of Sakis is a decent instrument, and a good buy for the Buy It Now price-- but NO higher!

----------


## Jim Garber

Victor:
Perhaps we need to plan a Cafe group tour of Greece with you as the tour leader. 

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

Perhaps more modest --and, for that, more practical-- I might write up some sort of "travel guide" for these luthiers. Trouble is, I myself will have to find time to go visit them all... ah, coordinating the schedule of even ONE person can be SO difficult!

Victor
(who now works as Scheduling Manager of a major conservatory, with THOUSANDS of monthly bookings to coordinate  )

----------


## billkilpatrick

> Victor:
> Perhaps we need to plan a Cafe group tour of Greece with you as the tour leader. 
> 
> Jim


YES!!

----------


## billkilpatrick

> Actually, Bill, what I wonder most about in your post is the opening phrase:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by  
> 
> ...


the martin strings were the "lightest" i could find locally. if lighter gauge strings are available online, i'd be very interested in knowing how i could get a set -. preferably in europe.

what interests me - in my new-found interest in bowlbacks - is the "natural" note of my instrument (E) and how far (or near) GDEA may be from the natural note in yours.

one of the sites i visited, concerning this, mentioned that pete seeger tuned his banjo to EBF#C# - i wonder how many neapolitan, strolling players found it easier to sing in this tuning and how much more accommodating it might have been for their guiartist in accompaniment.

----------


## Jim Garber

> one of the sites i visited, concerning this, mentioned that pete seeger tuned his banjo to EBF#C#


This is tangential to the current discussion but Pete tunes his banjo down because he extended the neck. Trivia: John D'Angelico did the first extension for him many years ago. He uses the banjo primarily to accompany singing he needed something he could tune lower than the std banjo.

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

On another, related tangent: Greek folk-fiddlers, i.e. players of the *lyra*, speak of "tuning _to the WOOD_", i.e. to the "natural" pitch to which the body of the instrument resonates optimally. This is, if I understand him correctly, just what Bill is talking about. Yes, there are probably millennia of this practice stretching behind us...

Having said that, I cannot speak for Neapolitan folk-practice. _Even if_ tuning has always been GDAE, that has only nominal value, as pitch-standards have varied widely and WILDLY!

----------


## Bob A

Wild variation indeed. Violinists tell of their instruments having been tuned to the parish organ, whatever pitch that may have been, but I doubt there had been any effort to standardise on a wider area than the village. And it's doubtful that the lowly mandolin would have been permitted into the realm of the sacred, given the generally ill repute of musicians and suchlike riffraff.

"Tuning to the wood" is such an obvious concept, yet it comes as a complete surprise to me, accustomed as I've been to the ubiquitous tuning fork. I'm almost tempted to attempt to tune several instruments to the pitch of their comfort; but I'm sooo lazy that I doubt I'll make the experiment. Still, it would be interesting to note just what pitch would maximise response, and to what extent the instruments would approximate one another in such a state.

Of course, if anyone else were to do so, I'd be more than pleased to hear of their findings.

----------


## billkilpatrick

bob - re: "tuning to the wood" ... this may be of interest:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/Helmholtz.html

----------


## vkioulaphides

I am no physicist-- although, for the record, Helmholtz is on the shelf, right next to the family Bible.  Yes, this is _precisely_ what I meant.

Pitch-level was standardized by international treaty (!), and yet is STILL hotly contested. Legendary tenor Carlo Bergonzi, for example, has run a one-man crusade to bring pitch *down* to where it was in Verdi's Italy, arguing (rather eloquently and logically) that we now expect singers to scrape their throats raw while singing those TERRIBLY demanding Verdi roles, _at a pitch MUCH HIGHER_ than the composer had meant them.

----------


## JeffD

I would suppose, with modern tools and measurement techniques, it would be possible to work the other way - and make an instrument whose natural "in the wood" resonance was at concert pitch.

----------


## billkilpatrick

... or (more modern yet) "in the carbon fibre" - as shown here:

http://www.new-mad.com/

i mentioned this before but over on mikesoud.com, i read about a luthier who tried making a single piece oud out of carbon fibre and gave up when the prototype produced something that sounded like a banjo. 

i also saw an ovation style bowlback up for auction on ebay-uk - with carbon fibre bowl and wooden face. i went quickly and for more money than i would have thought.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "I would suppose, with modern tools and measurement techniques, it would be possible to work the other way - and make an instrument whose natural "in the wood" resonance was at concert pitch."


Yes, that is _precisely_ how e.g. the various types of *clarinets* are built, with preconceived and preset column-of-air, bore, and material density specifications to yield the familiar instruments "in B-flat", "in C", "in A", "in E-flat", etc.

Violin makers of old had _extremely_ complex and sometimes downright cryptic "tapping techniques", by which they would tap with their fingertip at various spots of a nascent soundboard and back (i.e still not attached to the rest of the instrument), then shave down the wood by the thinnest imaginable increment, then tap again, etc. until they reached the resonance they strove for. In many important ways, that IS The Art Of Violin-Making.

I am sure that the better builders of bowlbacks had similar principles in mind, although naturally applied in different ways, based on the fundamental differences between the two families of instruments.

----------


## Jim Garber

I don't know if anyone has noticed this thread, but this bowlback has some very interesting tuners. I have a jpeg of similar design but i can't seem to find the others that go with it to identify the mandolin's maker. I think it was one on eBay some time ago, prob in February of last year.

Jim

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## Bob A

Interesting digreesions abound.

Carbonfiber ouds that sound like banjos; bowlbacks of plastic. Ovation guitars sound to me like the plastic they're made of. Surprising to think the table is not able to overcome the effects of the body material. Surprising to find that Merrill aluminum bowls sound pretty good.

Frequency determination by international fiat. I shudder to think of the UN involved in sending in teams of audio engineers to verify concert pitch.

Tenors in general, and their varied enthusiasms.

And Helmholtz frequencies in mandolins. I can see the utility in, say, a wind instrument, but the variables in body size, shape, mass, flexibility, internal bracing shapes and locations, soundhole size, number and location are such that no formula could begin to address the situation. The only way to arrive at a satisfactory blending of complexities is thru the intuitive working of a skilled maker, whose depth of experience, brought into play over decades, may bring forth a fine instrument, or maybe not.

Been amassing a pile of reference books on violins of late, and delving into obscure corners of that topic. Someone is using microbubbles of glass embedded in adhesive as a crack filler in violins, the same stuff that is used, embedded in fiberglass in aircraft construction to bring the weight down. Apparently it works well in both applications; of course, it's already been posited that the same glass technique was in use in the early days if the violin.

So much for today's exercise in digression, at least my small part of it.

----------


## billkilpatrick

another digression - integral, perhaps - is to consider tuning in 5ths (as opposed to 4ths) and the span of notes this tuning provides and the comparative ease with which any strolling player - for example - might carry his instrument along to participate with any group of players/singers. 

plucked, bowlback instruments of any sort are of interest to me - particularly the mandolin, for its dimutive size and its informality.

what intrigues me is the seemingly enormus amount of instruments produced in naples - or by neapolitan luthiers in the new world - in and around the turn of the last century. #who played these instruments? #how often were they played and in what circumstance? #my mid-missouri flatback is a more comfortable, superiour sounding instrument ... why do i (of late) prefer to pick up the bowlback?!?

off to bed - s.pepys

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## vkioulaphides

> "Frequency determination by international fiat. I shudder to think of the UN involved in sending in teams of audio engineers to verify concert pitch."


Indeed, Bob: there have been more than one such international treaties, settling the "orchestra-tuning" A to 440 Hz; the earliest ones (to actually stick for a while) go back to the 1830s, I believe. But my memory of such things is foggy, at best.

U.S. orchestras largely comply. Yet Boston Symphony tunes to *441*, and some overseas (notably German) orchestras even higher; Berlin Phil has upped the ante to a truly extraordinary *443*. The result is that e.g. factory-tuned instruments such as clarinets are "local" by necessity: you absolutely canNOT play a French-made one in a German orchestra, or vice versa; ditto on all instruments whose ability to adjust is very limited. Manufacturer, beware!

Earlier on, there was "chamber-pitch" (Kammerton, ton-de-chambre, diapason da camera), "church-pitch" (ditto on the respective foreign-language equivalents), and a myriad variants. Add to these the innumerable actual _temperaments_, i.e. the placement of whole-steps and half-steps within an octave, and you get a most delightfully kaleidoscopic madness. # 

Only recently, a "new Bach tuning" was made public; it has become ever the craze by now: "period" instrument players are rushing their viols, lutes, et al to luthiers for the "appropriate" re-fretting, etc. Even before that, we had even-tempered, mean-tone, Valotti tuning, Kirnberger temperament, Spanish (both "regal" and "church" varieties), Portuguese _bem temperado_, countless French, Italian, and German tunings (think post-Thirty-Year-War, with present-day Germany as 200-odd kingdoms, principates, duchies, baronies, etc., etc. each with its own, divergent standards) to say nothing of what was going on in England, and... well, you get the idea. # 

Keep it simple, I say. Don't look TOO hard under History's Hood. Be pragmatic, don't fuss, be happy. Enjoy your music, ANY flavor you like it in. #

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## Jim Garber

> what intrigues me is the seemingly enormus amount of instruments produced in naples - or by neapolitan luthiers in the new world - in and around the turn of the last century. who played these instruments? how often were they played and in what circumstance?


There was no television, radio and barely were phonographs. People entertained themselves by singing, playing or listening to each other. The large majority of mandolins (as well as pianos, guitars, banjos) were sold to amateur musicians who played out of Whitney Warner books or bought sheet music of the day as opposed to buying CDs or downloading songs from iTunes. 

Jim

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## brunello97

> plucked, bowlback instruments of any sort are of interest to me - particularly the mandolin, for its dimutive size and its informality.


Maybe, Bill, these were the iPods of their day.

I guess bowlbacks are kind of like mPods of today for me. (Could never stand walking around with something stuck into my ears.)

Mick

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## vkioulaphides

> "Maybe, Bill, these were the iPods of their day."


What a BEAUTIFUL thought, Mick! _Bravo, bravissimo!_ This brings us back to all those discussions of and _in favor_ of a *participatory* culture. Yes, yes!

----------


## Bob A

"Music self-played is happiness self-made". A slogan immortalised in decal form on early 20th century ukuleles. (I think it was the "Harold Teen" brand).

----------


## Alex Timmerman

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Luigi-Embergher-Mandoline-1911-Rom-orginal-Koffer-517_W0QQitemZ260075382097QQihZ016QQcateg
oryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#bilder" target="_blank">Hello, An Embergher at Ebay again...</a>

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## Jim Garber

This Vega Abt Model has got to be fairly rare. Already it has a couple of hyper bidders -- anyone here? (Bidder are hidden).

Interesting... I have see a good handful of Pettine model but this is the first Abt I have seen. Vega also lists a Scalzo artist model. Has anyone seen one of those?

Jim

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## brunello97

> This Vega Abt Model has got to be fairly rare. Already it has a couple of hyper bidders -- anyone here? (Bidder are hidden).
> 
> Interesting... I have see a good handful of Pettine model but this is the first Abt I have seen. Vega also lists a Scalzo artist model. Has anyone seen one of those?
> 
> Jim


This is a VERY nice looking mandolin. Maple bowl (!) and the detailing along the elegant curve-and recurve-of the skirt edge (works nicely with the pickguard profile.) I think the word 'sexy' almost comes to mind. No fret markers? Was this typical?-it certainly adds to the elegance of the overall composition. I'm going to check with my accoutant. (He'll say "No.")

Eugene: Do you think I can roll this into a grant application? I think the good people of the state of Michigan would want me to have this.

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

With Handel tuners, too. I agree, this is nice. Any idea why it's being described as a "mandolute"? Is that just something they say on the label, or does it imply a longer scale?

Martin

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## Neil Gladd

> Originally Posted by  (jgarber @ Jan. 14 2007, 11:57)
> 
> This Vega Abt Model has got to be fairly rare. Already it has a couple of hyper bidders -- anyone here? (Bidder are hidden).
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> This is a VERY nice looking mandolin. Maple bowl (!) and the detailing along the elegant curve-and recurve-of the skirt edge (works nicely with the pickguard profile.) I think the word 'sexy' almost comes to mind. No fret markers? Was this typical?-it certainly adds to the elegance of the overall composition. I'm going to check with my accoutant. (He'll say "No.")


Oooooh! If I *HAD* any money you'd have to fight me for it, but it's not going to happen.  This mandolin appeals to more than most that appear on this thread.

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## Jim Garber

I hope that someone we know gets this one...

I think the mandolute just is a shorthand for bowlback. I think the seller does not really know.

Jim

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## Bob A

It seems (now that ebay is going to extremes to conceal pertinent information from potential bidders) that bidder 1 has bid on only two items; one was from the current seller. Shill? 

It's so annoying to have all this info covered up. Makes fraud much simpler, I suspect.

So. Anyone here gonna chase the Abt? I'm tempted, but pretty thin in the liquidity dept.

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## etbarbaric

I might... depending on where it goes. That shouldn't discourage others with an interest, though. It is an auction after all. Who pays the most gets the prize by definition.

Eric

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## billkilpatrick

very tempting ... but as i'm wandering, liquidity-challenged and starry-eyed in bagpipe land at the moment ... someone else will have to get it.

lang may yer lum reek - bill

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi,

Indeed a very nice Vega bowlback. Always as I see one I am struck by the beauty of the Vega design. Unfortunately the seller does not ship to Europe, otherwise...

Speaking about Vega mandolins; here is <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Vega-Rosewood-Inlaid-Mandolin-in-orig-case-34631_W0QQitemZ280070926094QQihZ018QQcategoryZ1
0179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphot  ohosting" target="_blank">another one for sale. </a>


Best, 

Alex

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## chey47

How many ribs? How many frets should someone be looking for if they are really getting interested in purchasing a nice bowlback mandolin.

Thanks Joe

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## Jim Garber

Number of ribs really does not matter in terms of sounds quality, tho the more expensive ones usually have a larger number. Frets are at least 18 and sometimes more with an extension. No different than carved or flattop mandolins. It all depends on what you want to do with it.

Also depends on whether you want a vintage instrument or a new one.

Jim

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## chey47

Any suggestions on a new instrument? Or is it better to go with a vintage? It is a little confusing buying a bowlback mandolin. Thanks

----------


## Bob A

New? Pre-owned? Plain? Fancy? Lots of variables, no single answer fits all. Cheap way is ebay, but fraught with peril, since much dreck washes up on the shores of the bay. If you know what to look for, are patient and willing to risk having to send the instrumnent off immediately for repair to render it playable you can try for an oldie. Or you can go thru a reputable dealer, pay more, get an approval period and a reasonable guarantee of soundness and playability. Supplies are limited, but good stuff does appear.

New. Calace is still in the business, and for less than a grand you can get a nice new instrument; even so, you might have to pay for some setup work once it arrives. Other nationalities make bowlbacks; I have a nice Greek instrument. Different construction and appearance from the Italian, bit cheaper. Not always easy to find good examples, unless you happen to travel to Greece.

Old well-made US bowlbacks are in many ways the best bargains. European and Japanese players don't tend to seek them out, probably due to lack of exposure, and US mandolinists are not interested in bowlbacks. Vega, Martin, Larson brothers (Maurer, Stahl, etc) and others all made worthy mandolins. If you're lucky, 2-300 will score a nice instrument. But the downside is in repairs - few US luthiers are experienced with these intruments, and repairs can be costly and time-consuming, so getting a good example to start with will make life much easier.

Of course, money may be no object. Daniel Larson makes concert-quality instruments, and 3-4K will bring you one of those, made to order. There are other modern makers - check out the bowlbacks in the eye candy section. Several posters have new mandolins by Pandini, as played by Carlo Aonzo.

New or vintage? Same as with any instrument; condition issues with older instruments, break-in and depreciation issues with new. May make a difference if you choose not to keep it. I tend to prefer older instruments, but that's just the background I come with. 

So, start looking around, feel free to solicit opinions on what you've found, decide what you want to spend, and before you know it, you'll be bowled over by your new toy.

----------


## Jim Garber

Yet another Embergher -- 1907 Number 1. This one looks like it needs much restoration which will include fixing the multiple separations of the bowl, among other things I am sure. Could be nice tho.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim,

Indeed these early ones are very nice. Their excellent sound always remind me of that of the best 18th century Neapolitan (Vinaccia, Filano and Fabricatore) mandolins. 
A sound which I would describe as clear, crispy (sandy perhaps - that is indeed the word I like) and very open over the whole string range. An honest sound also and one that makes the mandolin sound box vibrate. Especially so when the 4th, 3rd and 2nd string pairs are played. Very full and sandy sound. That is with the right strings of course! 

This particular orchestra mandolin at Ebay indeed needs a complete restoration. The scratch plate of course is rather badly ´repaired´ and the design of the tip of the fingerboard doesn´t look original anymore. It looks to be altered (filed off) at that point, for the 25th fret -normal for this model- is #missing also.

Let´s see what it does,


Best,

Alex

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## Embergher

> Yet another Embergher -- 1907 Number 1. This one looks like it needs much restoration which will include fixing the multiple separations of the bowl, among other things I am sure. Could be nice tho.
> 
> Jim


Well, what should an Embergher expert immediately spot? ... Let's see:

- The fingerboard is too wide at the nut, it's not curved, the frets are not made of the right material, the shape of the fingerboard from the 19th fret on is wrong, the number, placement and size of the position points is wrong ... which tells me this is not an Embergher fingerboard, but a replacement.

- And this is even worse: the back of the neck, which was originally V-shaped, has been filed down and rounded, probably to make it feel like a Neapolitan mandolin! On the side view picture, this is very clearly noticeble.

So it's very sad ... a Roman mandolin modified into a Neapolitan mandolin. 
Complete restoration? I'd say forget it ... for that kind of money you can find another nice Embergher which hasn't been butchered. To me this is not even worth 50 EUR ... it's not a Roman mandolin anymore.

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## Jim Garber

Whew! Those photos are so bad it is hard to tell what is going on but I do see what both of you are noting as to what is wrong with this one. It is hard to tell, but does it even have a zero fret? Still, the neck reshaping is the scariest part, i would think. 

Jim

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## Embergher

> Whew! Those photos are so bad it is hard to tell what is going #on but I do see what both of you are noting as to what is wrong with this one. It is hard to tell, but does it even have a zero fret? Still, the neck reshaping is the scariest part, i would think. 
> 
> Jim


The photos are bad indeed, so maybe there is even more wrong with it than we see ... the overall condition is very bad of course, which would even be an issue if it were fully original.
It doesn't seem to have a zero fret, but that would be normal for this period anyway.
As you say Jim, the neck reshaping is the worst of all, really horrifying!

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## fretman45

I'm tempted to go for the Abt mandolin myself, but am hesitant that it might need repairs. I bought a Vega # 2 off ebay a while back, which is in good condition. I would like to possibly have a new 24 or 29 fret finger board put on to replace the 20 frets fingerboard it currently has. Any suggestions on who might be able to do this, or if this is a bad idea for this mandolin? There is a local luthier who will try to do it for about $300, but he is quite busy, and has never worked on bowlbacks.

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## Bob A

If I weren't already awash in bowlbacks and deep in hock therefore, I'd go for the Abt myself. When Vega extended itself, it made very fine bowlbacks indeed. I have not seen an ABt myself, but if it approaches the quality of their Pettine Special model in sound and playability, it'd certainly be a winner. (And in fact it does have some similarities: the pearl "washers" around the posts of the tuning machines, the silver backing plate for the tuners (my Pettine is also silver, and arrived tarnished nearly to black, but cleaned up admirably) are both indicators of the quality level Vega seemingly wished to approach).

I've had occasion to express my belief that in the Pettine model, Vega may have crafted the best American bowlback; if the Abt is anywhere near that quality, it'd be a great catch. I didn't see anything in the condition that would give me pause, and I love the maple bowl above all things on bowlbacks. If I keep on in this vein I'll end up bidding on the thing.

As far as repairs are concerned, there's a fellow in New England who'll undertake repairs and perhaps more importantly will effect repairs promptly. 

As to price, a good Pettine will run around 2K. I've only seen two Pettine Specials for sale in the last several years, and I have one of them. This is the first Abt I've seen. While Vegas abound, the very top models are pretty rare.

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## etbarbaric

Pearl washers around tuning pegs are very pretty... but they were a terrible idea. I have them on several of my fancier Vegas, and they continually pop off, get reglued, pop off again, etc. Tuning pegs bend ever so slightly under tension, press on the pearl, and off it comes.... tiddlywinks...

As for replacing fingerboards on vintage instruments, I'm pretty dead-set against that, unless the original was particularly malformed or has degraded/warped, etc. over time. If a player really needs those frets (as some do), I'd recommend either buying a vintage instrument that sported them originally, or having one made. In Ralf's response above you can see how quickly a replaced fingerboard (no matter how well made or well intended) can destroy the integrity of an original instrument.

This particular Vega will go for a premium... largely because it has "Abt" on the back. In my mind there would be no sense in modifying it in a way that resulted in its immediate devaluation... (assuming, of course, that the fingerboard is original... and I have no reason to doubt that is)

Curmudgeonly,

Eric

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## etbarbaric

Two other points....

This fretboard is not actually without position markers. #They are discretely provided on the bass edge where the performer can see them if required.

Unless I miss my guess, the inlayed binding will not be trivial to replace. #It looks like a sort of engraved and inked pearl that I have on one of my Vegas. #Replicating that to make it look cosmetically like the remaining bits will be likely be difficult and (I would think) expensive.

Just thoughts,

Eric

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## Jim Garber

Here's the catalog page for the Abt Model.

I was trying to see on the photos that the seller sent me whether it conforms to the catalog specs in terms of the binding but none of the photos are quite clear enough.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

Thanks for that Jim. #I love how 15-year-old wood is "very old".. :-)

This confirms that the fingerboard is likely original as it is blank on the front with "inlaid dots on side at principal positions".... just like their illustration. This instrument differs in trivial ways from the description... most likely just minor design changes over time.

I have been sent some additional photos... unfortunately they are all pretty blurry. #The binding is slightly different than I had guessed. #It is actually two sets of purfling separated by a fancy inlay strip. #The inlay strip looks like whitish material... maybe pearl... maybe something else, and has a black vine-like design either engraved and inked, or inlayed. #I stick by my statement that this will be difficult to replicate cleanly.

Eric

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## fretman45

You might also notice that the Abt model actually sold for about $15.00 more than the Pettine model.

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## Jim Garber

> You might also notice that the Abt model actually sold for about $15.00 more than the Pettine model.


Actually in the catalog I scanned from, the Abt sold for $150 and the Pettine for $125. The other artist model was one for Gregorio Scalzo which sold for $100. The top of the line Vega Deluxe sold for $275 but that was elaborately inlaid and the only Vega with fluted ribs. Those ribs were lined with pure silver.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

Hi Jim,

Thanks again. I would be *very* interested in getting a scan of the Vega Deluxe if such a thing exists in your catalog. I believe I own just such an instrument. It is an upper-end instrument, much like the Abt in appearance (including the shape of the scratch plate). As you describe, it has fluted ribs separated by silver wire.

Eric

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## Jim Garber

Here you go Eric...

I am curious about what Vega terms a "Wilmot bridge" which is featured on model 4 1/2 and up. It is hard to tell from the cuts but it looks like it might be a bone or ivory insert with some sort of compensation as opposed to a straight bone insert as I have on my style 3.

Does yours have an unusual bridge?

Jim

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## etbarbaric

Thanks Jim. #Most interesting. #This is not my mandolin. #As I said, mine is more like the Abt in design, and much less ornament that this drawing implies. #In any case, I can vouch that the "Deluxe" was not the only model that Vega made with fluted ribs and silver dividers. Mine must have come before or after your catalog... or been a one-off special.

Mostly I am coming to covet #your catalog! #Wanna sell me a full scan?

Eric

ps - My recollection is that my bridge is straight. However, I know that I replicated a bridge from another Vega some time back... can't remember if it was this instrument or another that was missing the original bridge. I'll have to go look through my records. Your supposition for the Wilmot Bridge sounds plausible. The typical Vega bridge is fairly stodgy... and features a non-conpensated ivory insert into an ebony base.

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## Jim Garber

> Mostly I am coming to covet your catalog! Wanna sell me a full scan?


Eric:
The one I scanned is a reprint and available from Elderly.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Winning bid for the Abt is $1533. Winning bidder is "etbb": Eric, is that you? If so, congratulations, and I'm looking forward to hearing more about it!

Incidentally, the Embergher Tipo B on Ebay Germany is on 1100 Euro, with almost two days to go. There may still be quite a bit of uplift in this one, which is similar to Jim's and mine (give or take the extra decorations of the Tipo B).

Martin

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## Jim Garber

That Embergher is about what I paid for mine already. That one looks in good shape but as we all know, they*always* need work.

I also think that that winner of the Abt is Eric and emailed him but have not heard back.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

Yup... guilty... (sorry Jim, my e-mail reply to you seems to have bounced).

I was somewhat surprised to get it as I expected it to go higher. Still, I am quite pleased. I guess *I* get to figure out how to replicate the trim... :-)

To break the news to my wife I gave her a copy of the catalog scan. She didn't go for the $150 price tag though... I think she may be onto me...

Eric

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## Bob A

So glad the Abt was won by one of the "locals". Reasonable price, too, I suspect, so long as inevitable touch-ups are minimal.

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## etbarbaric

Thanks Bob. We shall see. I've learned to expect the worst when it comes to repairs, and even well-intended seller's information is often corrupt. An instrument I bought that "had never been repaired", and had presumably "been in the seller's hands since 1940" recently revealed itself to have a fiberglass and epoxy patch under a table crack. I'm afraid it will likely wear that one for life.

Most unseamly (pun intended)... 

Eric

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## Bob A

Expect the worst, indeed. My ebay Vinaccia, long held in thrall by the notorious Tom Crandall, in addition to the holes punched thru the sides by crossbraces in the shrinking bowl, had its bridge glued down to the belly of the mandolin. The "restored" Salsedo's restoration apparently was limited to someone applying a liberal coat of varnish to the belly with a paintbrush. Slopped over the edges, too, to add hamhandedness to criminal incompetence. Tacky. (Pun intended).

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## Jim Garber

I have been pretty lucky to have most of my more desirable mandolins being attacked by natural causes not by human intervention (or reptilian dentistry). No epoxy etc. 

Congratulations on a nice acquisition, tho I thought you were mostly a gut strung mandolinist. Still it should be a nice one and I am sure that the binding/border can be addressed in an acceptable manner. 

And if you need to, I am sure that either Bob or I can talk to your wife. I could send her a nice detailed photo of my instrument closet and she will see how very reasonable her husband is.

Of course, flowers always help... 

Jim

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## fretman45

Eric,

I too am curious to know how your Abt mandolin turns out, especially since I also made a good effort to bid on it. 

Doug

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## etbarbaric

Hi Doug,

I will try to update this thread when the instrument arrives. There may be a pause as I will be doing some traveling in the near future.

Best,

Eric

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## Eugene

You're a lucky soul, Eric. That must be the coolest Vega I've seen.

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## Jim Garber

Take a look at this Carabba mandolin from Catania. Esp strange are the tuners. If it weren't in Peru it would be worth chancing a low bid on just to see how those tuners work. Lots or tortoise on it as well so it was a higher end model.

Jim

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## brunello97

> Yup... guilty... (sorry Jim, my e-mail reply to you seems to have bounced).
> 
> I was somewhat surprised to get it as I expected it to go higher. Still, I am quite pleased. I guess *I* get to figure out how to replicate the trim... :-)
> 
> To break the news to my wife I gave her a copy of the catalog scan. She didn't go for the $150 price tag though... I think she may be onto me...
> 
> Eric


Good news on the Vega, Eric, I too am happy it wound up in a player's hands. I listened to my accountant and sat on my hands (and wallet.) Still it is a real beauty. 

There is an 'inflation calculator' on this site (http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi) I sometimes use The Vega's $150 original price translates into well over $3100. So you can tell your wife you got it for less than half the original price. Hopefully that helps....

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Interesting ad in the classifieds for Baroque (Historical Mandolins) in the UK. 

The seller says:



> These are based closely on the original instruments and have been made by a professional American Luthier.


I wonder why he doesn't just mention the name of the luthier. Possibly Daniel Larson? 

However, I did check on Larson's site and I don't see any Strad mandolins there. Then again, I am not too sure if he has even updated recently.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

Thanks for that Mick. #I just showed the inflation calculator to my (sainted, long suffering, and eternally patient) wife and she was at least mildly entertained... (whew)... Think I'd better follow up with the flowers in any case. #Couldn't hurt, might help...

Eric

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## chey47

I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts of the Vega Mandolin currently on ebay?

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## Jim Garber

> Speaking about Vega mandolins; here is <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Vega-Rosewood-Inlaid-Mandolin-in-orig-case-34631_W0QQitemZ280070926094QQihZ018QQcategoryZ1
> 
> 
> 0179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphot  ohosting" target="_blank">another one for sale. </a>


I assume you mean this one that Alex mentioned. Aside from the few pieces on the border it looks like it is in good shape. Hard to say tho until it is in hand what exactly it will need. I believe that this is a style 4 which could be rather nice.

At the moment it is quite reasonable and if it goes for under $300 it could still be a bargain.

Jim

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## sboneill

I am wanting to buy another BB. What do you folks think of this one <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1915-Martin-Mandolin-bowl-back-model-O-Ex-with-case_W0QQitemZ220074107277QQihZ012QQcategor
yZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Martin Style 0</a> 

-S

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## Jim Garber

> I am wanting to buy another BB. What do you folks think of this one <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1915-Martin-Mandolin-bowl-back-model-O-Ex-with-case_W0QQitemZ220074107277QQihZ012QQcategor
> 
> yZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Martin Style 0</a> 
> 
> -S


Here are a couple of others:
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1917-Martin-bowl-back-Mandolin-w-Case_W0QQitemZ220073667839QQihZ012QQcategoryZ10179  QQrdZ1Q
QcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">1917 Martin Style 0</a>

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-VINTAGE-MARTIN-BOWL-BACK-TATERBUG-MANDOLIN-w-CASE_W0QQitemZ190074184620QQihZ009QQcate
goryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">1909 Martin Bowlback</a>

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Incidentally, the Embergher Tipo B on Ebay Germany is on 1100 Euro, with almost two days to go. #There may still be quite a bit of uplift in this one, which is similar to Jim's and mine (give or take the extra decorations of the Tipo B).


Final price was 1820 Euro, which I think is roughly the going rate, based on the last few that came up on Ebay.

Many of the usual suspects in the bidders' list, with the highest from Japan (again, as usual). Interesting to read the questions put to the seller: there were at least four offers to buy outright, all at well below final winning bid, and the seller mentions having received even more offers. Sounds like he was initially unaware of the value of an Embergher but cottoned on quite quickly.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> there were at least four offers to buy outright, all at well below final winning bid, and the seller mentions having received even more offers. Sounds like he was initially unaware of the value of an Embergher but cottoned on quite quickly.


I just don't understand why a seller would even think it was in his or her interest to accept a bid and shut down the auction. If the bidder is willing to pay now why would they not pay that same price later. And, knowing eBay, why cut off all those snipers at the last minute. I guess it is just nervousness or greed.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

> If the bidder is willing to pay now why would they not pay that same price later.


Up to a point: in order to achieve a high auction price, one would need _two_ high bidders, so if only one shows up, his behind-the-scenes offer may conceivably be higher than the auction price. Of course, usually direct offers are only made on items that are highly desirable and where collectors _will_ bid in open auction.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Of course, if the seller does not want to sell under a certain price he can set a reserve so I still do not see much reason why it would be in a seller's interest to shut down an auction. 

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

This is a rather intriguing one: clearly a direct copy of an Embergher 5bis, and as far as one can tell from the photos (which is not very far) a fairly close one, too. #Currently on 446 Euro with 4 days to go. #The maker's label says "Emil Hofmann, Hamburg", which means nothing to me, and I can't find anything on Google. 

For those with more modest tastes, here is another German Embergher copy, this time of a Tipo B. #It's branded "Goldklang", like the one discussed on pages 107/108 back in this thread. #The photos are too poor to say how close to the original this one looks (let alone plays).

Martin

----------


## Bob A

I got my Calace thru the seller's shutting down the auction. He had been swamped with offers for the instrument, including mine; some of them apparently got somewhat nasty and threatening (!) and he decided he'd rather sell to someone who seemed reasonable. Nevertheless he did get us to bid the thing up to a somewhat stratospheric price before he let go, and of course I have only his word about the other stuff. 

The Embergher clones are interesting; I don't suppose there's any info regarding the goldklang. It would be amusing to find that the 5bis was a real Embergher, relabelled by an egomaniacal luthier. (We all have our fantasies).

----------


## Jim Garber

> The Embergher clones are interesting; I don't suppose there's any info regarding the goldklang. It would be amusing to find that the 5bis was a real Embergher, relabelled by an egomaniacal luthier. (We all have our fantasies).


I bought a CD of German catalog images from Christian Steinbrecher, a collector in Austria. Here is the page from the Goldklang catalog with some Emberghers clones. 

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is another page with Embergher-labelled mandolins. I am not sure if these are genuine ones tho. The prices are much higher. I have a feeling that Goldklang is a store or distributor. Perhaps Martin can translate?

Jim

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Jim, for posting this. I've seen what appear to be versions of Nr 1612/4 on the Ebay (one with purposely misleading ad copy.)  Die Schwalben-Spielplatten look quite the same at least.

Nice to have an idea of the date of the catalog? Are prices in RM? Is that Reichsmark? Were they precursors to the DM? I wonder how these prices correlate into dollars, pounds or Euro.... Maybe Martin can help us out here.

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

Thank you very much, Jim, this is most interesting. "RM" stood for "Reichsmark" or (briefly) "Rentenmark", and was the currency introduced in 1923 to replace the old currency which was just "Mark" ("M"). 1923 was the year of hyperinflation, which was ended by introducing the Rentenmark at an exchange rate of 1RM = 1 trillion Mark (!!!). In 1924, the Rentenmark was then renamed Reichsmark. That stabilised the currency at an exchange rate of 4.2 RM to the US dollar, which improved slightly in the 1930s to around 2.4 RM to the US dollar. If that was indeed the exchange rate at the time this catalogue was printed, then the prices for genuine (if modest) Emberghers in Germany were vastly lower than the prices of the Vega models listed earlier in this thread.

Now to the Goldklang catalogues, second sheet first: the ones on the right are indeed genuine Emberghers, advertised as being "with original label". Thus, Goldklang would certainly seem to be a distributor, who sold prestigious instruments under the original names and anonymous ones under their own. The first two are Tipo A, at RM60 for maple and RM62 for rosewood (i.e. the rosewood was slightly more expensive). The next two are Tipo B, at RM76 and RM79. Quite a large surcharge for what we know to be essentially the same instrument with some added (and aesthetically dubious) ornaments. The fifth and sixth Embergher models that are listed aren't specifically identified, but are described as having the same number of ribs (18) as the Tipo A/B with a mother-of-pearl rosette and a tortoiseshell scratchplate. This is the one pictured. Sounds like the No. 1 orchestral model. Same price as the Tipo B! The last line reads: "For higher-specified genuine Embergher models, please enquire." That presumably refers to models Nos. 2 to 5bis. The cheaper instruments on the left were made in Catania and also sold under the original labels.

The first page of the catalogue appears to list the mandolins sold under Goldklang's own label. This would appear to include both of the Goldklang Embergher clones we've seen in recent weeks on Ebay DE, which would be the third and fifth of these. We know from the Ebay photos that they had the "Goldklang" name branded on the top, and also that their top wood had wider grain than Embergher would have chosen. Prices are pretty exactly half the original, which is not all that much differential. These two are described in the text as "Embergher Model", both in maple. The Tipo A-clone has 17 ribs (one fewer than the original, for some reason), "Italian grey" (whatever that means) with radiussed fretboard. The Tipo B clone has "beautiful flame", "rope binding", "MOP inlaid scratchplate", "premium tuners" and is a "tone instrument" (again whatever that means). This is the one currently on Ebay, and it is the most expensive one listed on this page. The Tipo A (but not B) could also be had in rosewood, for RM35, i.e. again rosewood was more expensive. Of the other instruments listed on this page, three are said to have an "Embergher headstock", which is just another way of saying "slotted headstock" (that's still common usage among German luthiers).

All very interesting, and may make it worthwhile for somebody here to think about whether to bid for the Ebay Goldklang.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Martin, for the translation and history. I had an old million mark note when I was a kid that must have come from the hyper-inflation period you spoke of. And it does seem the Emberghers were a comparative value at this time. 

I may launch a bid or two at the Goldklang. Ich bin ein Trottel fur die ahornteiligen. (forgive the attempt at neologism-which is a real delight of German)

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

With ten hours to go, here is a Herwiga Solist mandola in apparent good condition. I put a lowball bid in, but have been outbid and won't raise it, so anybody else should feel free. This is a rather prestigious German model and (I believe) its characteristic half-onion shape was the trailblazer of what became in later decades the modern German bowlback. Knorr still calls his bowlback mandola the Herwiga model. I believe John Craton plays a (non onion-shaped) Herwiga Solist mandolin as his main instrument. 

Martin

----------


## harper

Just curious. Is there a ninth and unused string hook on the tailpiece of the Herwiga mandola?

----------


## Jim Garber

> Just curious. Is there a ninth and unused string hook on the tailpiece of the Herwiga mandola?


That is prob a tailpiece that can also be used for a waldzither, right?

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

I would also guess that this is a waldzither tailpiece, and probably a replacement.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

There is something I like about this 1902 Embergher-influenced copy by Bertinelli.
It looks seriously understated but decently made. The bridge looks a little odd, tho, with a dark wood shim under it. I also can't figure out why the label would say "Bertinelli aus Rom, 1902, Leipzig". Possibly this was made by a transplanted Roman in Leipzig? Anyone familiar with this maker?

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Not quite a bowlback, more of a Portuguese style mandolin is this one by Leandro Massini from the collection of the late Pat Lawson of BC. This seller has been slowly fixing up and selling off Pat's collection of about 400 mandolins, many bowlbacks. I "met" Pat after bidding against him quite a few times on eBay and had a few wonderful phone calls with him.

Jim

----------


## Graham McDonald

Gentles,

There is a 1915 Calace on ebay Australia auction no 250077884043. Closes on Friday (Australian time) if anyone is interested	

cheers

graham

----------


## Jim Garber

> There is a 1915 Calace on ebay Australia auction no 250077884043. Closes on Friday (Australian time) if anyone is interested


Direct Link to Calace 1914 -- I think that is a model 16bis.

Jim

----------


## Graham McDonald

Thanks, Jim

Never quite worked out how to put hyperlinks into these posts 8-)

graham

----------


## Jim Garber

> Never quite worked out how to put hyperlinks into these posts 8-)


Simple:

Type your normal words. Then when you want to put the hyperlink in -- copy the hyperlink. Click on the "http://" button above paste the link in the first window. Then type in whatever word or phrase you want it to link to in the text. Finish your typing and hit "Add Reply."

That is it!
Jim

----------


## chey47

I am interested in bidding on the 1914 Calace, can anyone tell me how much something like this is worth or what the top bid may be?

Thanks

----------


## Jim Garber

> I am interested in bidding on the 1914 Calace, can anyone tell me how much something like this is worth or what the top bid may be?
> 
> Thanks


Let's see... looking into the crystal ball...

There is lots of interest in this one. Bear in mind that it is one of the upper models. Check out bidder's questions at the bottom of the posting.

I don't know how eBay-savvy you are, but why not just bid your best shot based on your wallet etc? You know that most bidders wait until the very last moment, right?

Having said all that, I would be surprised if it went for less than $2000USD and prob will approach $3000USD and up. If I had to guess, maybe $3300.

BTW a new 16bis costs 1500 euros as of 2004 which is USD2000 more or less. They have prob gone up somewhat from that.

Jim

----------


## chey47

Thanks for the info Jim. Do you or anyone else know anything about the wood the bowl is made of Palasander, never heard of it before.

----------


## jk245

> This is a rather intriguing one: clearly a direct copy of an Embergher 5bis, and as far as one can tell from the photos (which is not very far) a fairly close one, too. Currently on 446 Euro with 4 days to go. The maker's label says "Emil Hofmann, Hamburg", which means nothing to me, and I can't find anything on Google. 
> 
> For those with more modest tastes, here is another German Embergher copy, this time of a Tipo B. It's branded "Goldklang", like the one discussed on pages 107/108 back in this thread. The photos are too poor to say how close to the original this one looks (let alone plays).
> 
> Martin


This settled for 2510 euro (about $3300usd)

----------


## brunello97

> Thanks for the info Jim. Do you or anyone else know anything about the wood the bowl is made of Palasander, never heard of it before.


Chey47-

My understanding is that Palisander is a type of Rosewood. I've seen it referenced to both Brazilian, East Asian and African sources, which reinforces the sometimes loose language around wood common names. 

Paul Hostetter, who is a regular MC contributer, seems to know his woods quite well and can probably help pin the definition down. My source is typically Hoadley but he isn't specific on it either.

Rosewood seems the best guess.

Mick

----------


## jk245

Just a quick comment. 
After seeing that there are now (112 pages) of comments on this thread, it seems the BOWL BACK is a favorite instrument, at least from this section of the board. 
Considering that, why don't US Makers make and promote this style? 
Or, are there any US major Makers who do?

----------


## RSW

There are a few US makers doing bowlbacks, check out www.daniellarson.com for a start. When you say major makers, I assume you're talking factory production, I doubt if this type of mandolin succeeds with this approach.

----------


## Jim Garber

There are quite a few of us in this area who do not play (or even own) bowlbacks, even for classical music, but the majority of us more vocal folks here do. 

As far as interest in US makers, figure this: the mandolin is a minority instrument in almost any part of the world -- even Italy! The percentage of people playing bowlbacks is a serious minority of mandolin players. In addition, in the US, the majority of mandolin players play the std Gibson-style instrument. Gibson did a very good job of winning over people to their style of instrument way back in the teens of the last century. The mandolin wnet out of favor altogether in the 1920s or so in favor of louder instruments. It remained in favor for (again) a small number of people interested in niche music: bluegrass, folk and ethnic musics. 

Having said all that, I know of no larger manufacturer in the US who would make a quality bowlback nor would they intend to, unless the winner of American Idol plays one. 

Jim

----------


## Eugene

However, making bowlback mandolins in the mandolin's pre-Gibson "Golden Era" in the US was a huge industry. Those days are decidedly behind us.

----------


## brunello97

> Having said all that, I know of no larger manufacturer in the US who would make a quality bowlback nor would they intend to, unless the winner of American Idol plays one. 
> 
> Jim


So, Jim, are you suggesting that the "Seven Spanish Steps" (or was it "Students") who helped kick start the late 19th C. mando-craze where actually American Idols of their time?

Could it be just that easy again? 

Mick

----------


## jk245

> There are a few US makers doing bowlbacks, check out www.daniellarson.com for a start. When you say major makers, I assume you're talking factory production, I doubt if this type of mandolin succeeds with this approach.


I checked out Dan's web prices.

In general his unadorned instruments sell for over $3000 and possibly go to well over $4500USD with extras.

I am waiting for the current Calace price list. I believe, from old prices, the starting direct prices FOB factory (Italy) is under $1000USD.

Under those conditions the US maker will have a serious PRICE competition. We can NOT however make any comparison based upon price alone. With regard to OVERALL QUALITY, the US might be worth every penny. For myself, I have not seem either.

----------


## fretman45

Richard Walz plays a Larson instrument, and considers it to be the best classical mandolin out there in the Italian tradition. One of my students has a very nice Larson mandolin too. I am considering ordering one myself. I am curious to find out who else might be playing Larson instruments.

Doug Back

----------


## Jim Garber

Larson's instruments are custom-made by a one-person shop (as far as I know-- Richard) whereas Calace these days are made in a small factory setting AFAIK. 

As far as other Larson owners, I know that Tony Robson, a prominent oboist in the UK, owns and plays one of Daniel's baroque mandolins.

There are very few north American makers of bowlbacks. Peter Sawchyn has made at least one patterned after contemporary German style instruments. There may be others in general, but many of contemporary bowlback makers can be seen on the eye candy page. 

I just noticed that this page is missing some Japanese makers.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here on for your entertainment!!

Yes everything appears original on this 11 string Fairbanks. What an elegant design! I also love this deluxe feature:


> Headstock to neck join is unusual, both appear to be Mahogany but with different colored finish.


Jim

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## Neil Gladd

*WHAT?!?!?!?* That's just not right!

----------


## jasona

I was going to ask "how deeply had the top of that 11 string sunk" but looked at the pictures and saw that, instead, the top had pulled away at the tailpiece.

Scary thing is that the top three tuning keys look to have been *manufactured* like that...

----------


## brunello97

This is a pretty amazing mandolin. It is a rare glimpse into the design process. (Probably lots of such things laying around the luthiery benches of history that never see the light of day.) 

Those additional tuners look like they came out of an old inset tuner assembly, which has independently set cams. It wouldn't have been hard at all for someone with a few metalworking tools to rig something like this up. I guess the real question should be why we haven't seen more such 'inventions'. Remember that Orville and Wilbur cooked up an airplane out of spare bicycle parts. (Well, sort of.) 

After Jim adds this to his collection, he can let us know how it sounds....

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> After Jim adds this to his collection, he can let us know how it sounds....


oh, please, no!!!  

Jim

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## Graham McDonald

With six hours to go the 1914 Calace has a bid of US$2025. Palasander usually refers to Brazilian rosewood, which I suspect was what Calace would have been using at the time. (tried to paste in the link to it, but the technology defeats me again)

My apologies for originally getting both the date and the ending time of the auction wrong (it was late ant night and I had a couple of glasses of red)

cheers

graham

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Remember that Orville and Wilbur cooked up an airplane out of spare bicycle parts. (Well, sort of.)


They also played on their mandolin when the weather wasn't right for flying. Somewhere I have a photo of the Wright Brothers' mandolin, that my aeronautical engineer brother took and sent me.

----------


## Jim Garber

Neil:
I thought you were kidding... take a look here.

Looks like Orville played a Washburn. Didn't he know that his namesake made mandolins? 

Jim

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Neil:
> I thought you were kidding... take a look here.


No, my brother has been to every air museum he could visit, and when he saw that mandolin in a glass case, he took a picture of it for me. He is as fanatical about airplanes as I am about the mandolin.

----------


## Jim Garber

Looks like old Orville was playing a model 122, a modestly-decorated one costing $33.75 in the late 1890s. What did Wilbur play?

Jim

----------


## brunello97

> Originally Posted by  (brunello97 @ Feb. 04 2007, 11:58)
> 
> Remember that Orville and Wilbur cooked up an airplane out of spare bicycle parts. (Well, sort of.)
> 
> 
> They also played on their mandolin when the weather wasn't right for flying. Somewhere I have a photo of the Wright Brothers' mandolin, that my aeronautical engineer brother took and sent me.


This is uncanny....I play the same mandolin as Orville Wright? Next time I get a knuckle buster fixing my bike I'll keep this in mind. Now to try to find some photos of him playing.

Mick

----------


## Eugene

Ol' Orville's mandolin got some discussion here at the Cafe a while back.

----------


## Jim Garber

Eugene:
 You are up either really late or really early:



> Feb. 05 2007, 01:58


Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> A Greek-made mandolin by <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Greek-Mandolin-Sakis-Brand-New_W0QQitemZ190066083078QQihZ009QQcategoryZ10179Q  QssPageNameZW
> 
> DVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Sakis</a>.


The seller is now listing this same mandolin on craigslist.

The price is negotiable.

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

My comments above still hold true: OK, decent price, hardly "collectible", generic, modern Greek.

----------


## allenhopkins

Regarding the discussion as to the scarcity of modern manufacturers of quality bowl-backs: could one of the reasons be that there are so many 1890-1920 vintage bowl-backs still around, and available for purchase at reasonable prices?

----------


## Jim Garber

> Regarding the discussion as to the scarcity of modern manufacturers of quality bowl-backs: could one of the reasons be that there are so many 1890-1920 vintage bowl-backs still around, and available for purchase at reasonable prices?


Yes. Most of the individual makers are charging a fair price for the work that has to go into one of these instruments. For less expensive you could easily buy a vintage one tho there are some Pacrim and eastern European ones out there for fairly cheap. 

Jim

----------


## Neil Gladd

This is "sort of" a bowlback of note. I already have two of these, so I won't fight anyone over this one.

----------


## Martin Jonas

This Herwiga Solist looked pretty good and went for a reasonable price. I tried bidding for it, but to my surprise, Ebay would not allow me to do so as the seller had specified "Germany only". This has never happened before, even though I've bid on items marked like this in the past (I can always have them sent to my parents in Germany, after all), so I wonder whether that's a change in Ebay policy.

Oh well, my maximum was less than the winning bid, anyway.

Martin

----------


## RSW

Gee, the case was worth the money alone. Congrats to the buyer. #

----------


## Jim Garber

Very interesting 1883 Calace with label of "Nicola e Raffaele." This one has got to go for a fair amount, I would think.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

That 1883 Calace seems to be in amazing condition. Very peculiar affair with the Monzino and Calace labels in the case -- any guesses what that's about? If the case was made by Monzino, why is there a Calace label with a Monzino one pasted above it? The easier explanation might be that Calace made case and mandolin, and that Monzino sold them in his shop. This early Calace label looks very much like the standard Vinaccia label in typesetting and layout.

Martin

----------


## Bob A

I'm not particularly familiar with early Calace mandolins, but the peghead looks wrong. Not too sure about the bridge either. I doubt the peghead was replaced, looks like typical neck veneer line to me. (But I'm not wearing me specs this AM, squinting at the screen).

----------


## Jim Garber

You may be right, Bob. Aside from an oddball 1863(?) 12-atring Antonio Calace in my files, I see nothing with even remotely similar slotted peghead. 

Calaces are harder to categorize than, say Emberghers. For the most part the latter kept to the basic styles whereas Calace made so many that I hardly find any two that are even sort of identical, even from the same year. I knwo that the present model naming system derives from the older days, but I still see many that do not apply. 

This one could be a conundrum. It could also be something that Mr. Monzino had his hand in. He did make a few with slotted headstocks, tho they resembled the Roman style much more than the Neapolitan.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

The Calace mandolin look fine to me. It is indeed an early one and one original made by the (firm of the) Calace brothers. In my little book ´De Mandoline en de Gitaar etc.´ you can find a similar 1894 example to this instrument (description and fotos on p.46,47 and p.55 for the label). The "Roman" headstock of the pictured Calace is the same while the rosette is nearly identical. What differs with the Ebay Calace are the position markings and the design of the scratchplate. But for the rest it is practically the same. #


Best regards,

Alex.

----------


## Bob A

Thanks, Alex. I'm ashamed to admit that I failed to look into your book prior to posting.

As Jim says, Calace instruments are a varied lot. It was the slotted headstock that threw me off.

----------


## vkioulaphides

... and variety is --at least _often_ so-- a good thing. I have seen vintage Calace mandolins with rather, ah... stout, round necks. My 3-yr-old toddler Calace, au contraire, has a _steeply_ tapered neck, starting as a U-shape at the neck block and finishing virtually as a *V*-neck at the head stock. I find that wonderfully, ehm... handy. # 

Also, having looked at length through Alex' fabulous text, illuminated with excellent images, and provided with high-grade, scientific caliber measurements and specifications, I have noticed Calace mandolins with rather wide nuts. By comparison, mine is rather narrow, a mere 26 mm. 

Yes, of course, Emberghers come with 25, even *24*-mm. wide nuts, but they are "collectively exceptional" in that respect. Ditto on my appreciation of my Calace's nut-width: same-finger double stops are a breeze; inversely, any _narrower_, and my "E.T. fingers", after decades of bass-playing, would not have fit on the fingerboard at all. As far as mechanical choices are concerned, the Calace shop has been good to me. #

----------


## Martin Jonas

I think this one has been on sale before. Strange that there's no label, but it's clearly from the de Meglio/Ceccherini school of appointments. A truly spectacular maple bowl, and overall (at least from the photos) good solid materials and workmanship. The fretboard markers look a bit clumsy, but the rest is fairly tasteful, too.

Slightly lower down the food chain, what is this? Is this a domra, or a bowlback ukelele? Four strings, friction tuners, fixed bridge, looks like nylon strings.

Martin

----------


## Fliss

> I think this one has been on sale before. #Strange that there's no label, but it's clearly from the de Meglio/Ceccherini school of appointments. #A truly spectacular maple bowl, and overall (at least from the photos) good solid materials and workmanship. #The fretboard markers look a bit clumsy, but the rest is fairly tasteful, too.


I think you're right, Martin, I remember seeing it and thinking it looked rather Ceccherini-like. I think it's been on twice, once on a buy-it-now of £600, then £500, so there seems to be a pattern here.

I don't think I can make an e-bay link work, but although it doesn't qualify as a "bowlback of note" in the usual sense, a rather nice looking Kiso Suzuki bowlback just caught my eye, in what looks to be really good condition, and on a buy it now price that doesn't look too unreasonable. I may need to be reminded that did say I'm not going to buy one of these!!

Fliss

----------


## Eugene

> Eugene:
>  You are up either really late or really early:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by  
> 
> Feb. 05 2007, 01:58


It was somewhere in between late and early. I spent that day hiking the marshes and shoreline of Lake Erie with a Japanese fisheries biologist. I had arranged a swap of museum fish specimens for his group at Kyoto U. to study fine morphometric differences between dextral and sinistral individual fish within species. He'd never seen the Great Lakes, so I took him hiking in the frigid cold (ca. -18 C/0 F with absolutely biting windchill). I started touching up the photos Mrs. Eugene shot, but fell asleep. When I woke up, I finished (I had to get the CD to Hiroki on Monday)...and had to take one last shot at the Cafe. ...And Hiroki and I even discussed mandolin.

----------


## Martin Jonas

The Vietnamese/Taiwanese luthier collective has clearly now latched onto the bowlback big time: after the occasional "restored" bowlback in the last few months, this Ebay seller now has no fewer than five old Italian bowlbacks with scary lipstick put on, plus four new bowlbacks which they presumably built from scratch.

At least this time, the original Italian bowls were not in the Vinaccia league: two Ferraris, plus Miroglio, Bellini and Steianizzi.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

I think he bids on semi-broken ones under the name musicalparts. He usually only wins the ones at a low price and then does his "magic."

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Any one know about this bowlback sold by Carlo M. for 800?

I could not get on his site at the moment to see if there are any more pics.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> Very interesting 1883 Calace with label of "Nicola e Raffaele." This one has got to go for a fair amount, I would think.
> 
> Jim


Relatively reasonable final price on this auction: $2125. Looks like Marco was after it, by the couple of questions he asked.

Jim

----------


## Neil Gladd

Sadly, the days are gone when you could get a free Lyon & Healy mandolin by saving gum wrappers.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Sadly, the days are gone when you could get a free Lyon & Healy mandolin by saving gum wrappers.


Best part is: "is an exact copy of the celebrated model of the Naples maker, Viannccia." 

I checked... that is spelling on the card. I guess that is correct since this is not an exact copy of a Vinaccia.

Jim

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Best part is: "is an exact copy of the celebrated model of the Naples maker, Viannccia."


Apparently, it was Fred Viannccia, in Naples, Florida.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Apparently, it was Fred Viannccia, in Naples, Florida.


Ah, yes, I know him well. Neighbor of Ralph Calce and Lou Hamburger. It was quite the hotbed of mandolin making activity back then.

In fact here was one of Lou's works.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

A couple of notables in the classifieds:

These two are boing offered by Marco.
1922 Embergher A

1954 Calace Liuto

I asked Carlo M about his 800 bowlback and he said that he makes them. I have never met anyone who played his instruments. The photos look nice and this may be another possibility for a reasonable priced Italian bowlback. 

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Somehow I don't think this one will stay at 49 Pounds:

Vinaccia

And to go from the sublime to the ridiculous (not to mention off-topic for this thread):

Arnolo Viole d'Aline

Finally, 
this one is anonymous, but looks fairly decent. I believe Calace used much the same styling in the 1920s (but don't think this is one).

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> And to go from the sublime to the ridiculous (not to mention off-topic for this thread):
> 
> Arnolo Viole d'Aline


That one is a copy of a JTL product called the Violaline (or vice versa).

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Very ornate Antonio Grauso bowlback at Lark Street Music. They want $3250 for it. No comment.

Jim

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## Bob A

That Vinaccia label looks pretty unusual to me. Anyone have info about it?

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## Martin Jonas

How interesting. That label has only just been added to the auction and wasn't there yet when I first looked. I dont' think this is a Vinaccia at all, just the product of one of the plethora of shops trying for some reflected glory. The label says "Assoziazione degli allievi della casa Fratelli Vinaccia", i.e. it was produced by a bunch of Vinaccia pupils who aren't high profile enough in their own right to add their actual names to the label (in the way that Vinaccia pupils Angara and d'Isanto did). Any mention of Vinaccia on the label seems to get people bidding, but under the circumstances I wouldn't think it'll go over 400 Pounds. With a true Fratelli Vinaccia label it should be closer to £1000.

Martin

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## Graham McDonald

A 'Raffaele Calace & Figlio'mandolin from 1926 on ebay Australia (www.ebay.com.au) Item no is 230092513493
A starting bid of A$500 (US$400), but no takers as yet. I can ring him up and ask questions if anyone needs info.

(I promise I will learn how to put in hyperlinks)

cheers

graham

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## Jim Garber

Here you go, Graham:
Calace mandolin.

Jim

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## Phil Hopkins

Probably not Vintage

Hello all,

I'm new to this list and to bowlbacks. I'm looking for a nice but reasonable instrument, as I'm moving toward Spanish and traditional Italian music (and may end up at Classical, as I've always loved baroque music), but know nothing about them except what I've read on the internet. 

Some of you have probably seen this one, and probably also have some idea of when it was made. I'm guessing it's a newer make, and an economy model. I guess I'm sort of testing out my radar here. 

Any thoughts?

Phil

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## Eugene

> Probably not Vintage
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I'm new to this list and to bowlbacks. #I'm looking for a nice but reasonable instrument, as I'm moving toward Spanish and traditional Italian music (and may end up at Classical, as I've always loved baroque music), but know nothing about them except what I've read on the internet. #
> 
> Some of you have probably seen this one, and probably also have some idea of when it was made. #I'm guessing it's a newer make, and an economy model. I guess I'm sort of testing out my radar here. #
> 
> Any thoughts?
> ...


It's a working-class knock off of Embergher, almost certainly German.

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## Phil Hopkins

Yes, I wondered whether this one might have be German. It seems I've seen a number of mandolins with that odd fake scroll edge on the pick guard. Thanks to your tips, I also noticed that the bridge is located oddly, with the treble end seeming to slip over the cant.

Here are a couple of instruments I've seen that also have bridges below or right on the cant, and so raise concerns. 

1905 Larson Mayflower

1912 Favilla

Here's one listed as a 1905 Napolitan model.

1905 Napolitan

From what little I can tell from this single picture, it's been worked on, but looks interesting.

Here's one that caught my eye on ebay:

Weymann

Seems I've heard or read that Weymann was a decent maker. I'm interested in this one. Any cautions?

Clearly, I'm giddy with the ability to put links in these posts.

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## Jim Garber

Hi Phil:
Welcome to our club, otherwise known within as the Loyal Order of the Bowl. 

The two at Folkway Music have been there for over a year, I would say. They look nice but I have not seen them in person. You may be able to deal. 

The 1905 "Napolitan" is a Demeglio look-alike altho th bridge is not original. Demeglio is one maker I would recommend. Quite a few of us own at least one of them and they are nice and interesting sounding esp for folks music.

The Weymann belongs to Mick, who is one of the regulars here. His alias is brunello97.

Jim

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## Phil Hopkins

Thanks Jim,

The description of the "Napolitan" says that it is labeled "magnou." There are so many misspellings in the description, though, that I'm not sure that is right either. I can't find any info on that name. I haven't heard back from the person yet either. But I'm more intrigued now, especially with your suggestion that they have a good sound for folk music.

How do the Weymann's compare to the early 20th c. Vegas and Washburns or Martins?

----------


## Phil Hopkins

There are several nice American bowlbacks up for auction that I'm eyeing. 

But here's a mystery mandolin.

Unknown

Any ideas? Possibly American?

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## Martin Jonas

> It's a working-class knock off of Embergher, almost certainly German.


I agree with that: German and Embergherish. The asymmetric scratchplate with the inlaid scroll effect was one of Embergher's characteristics, and it has been copied with greater or lesser aesthetic success -- this one looks reasonably good although not quite right.

This may well be a reasonable instrument -- it looks well-made enough -- but without a recognisable maker's name, it's a bit potluck. On the other hand, if you can get it for around $150 or less, it may be a risk worth taking. The bridge position isn't quite right, but not wildly out of whack either. If this hasn't been played for a while, the bridge is likely to have shifted anyway. On photos, bridges often look to sit right on the cant, even if they are actually just before it -- some builders cut it very fine for the original bridge position, which can limit the scope for later adjustments.

Going for a "name" builder is safer, though, and you may want to hang on until a decent Washburn or similar comes up on Ebay -- they come around reasonably frequently. For Italian builders, Ebay UK is a better hunting ground than Ebay US and decent de Meglios come up at £100 ($200) or less quite frequently, although getting it sent to the US adds a lot of cost. De Meglio copies are plentiful, but not always up to the quality of the originals.

Good luck!

Martin

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## brunello97

Jim, you've oughted me. My ebay moniker remains a liability, generated by their automatic system in response to a few seed questions during a time of my, let's say, higher-calcium diet. Funny enough not to change though. My MC nom-de-plectrum suggests a more ambitious line of consumption.

Mick

I like the look of the Folkways Favilla. I might have to give a call.

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## Jim Garber

> I like the look of the Folkways Favilla. I might have to give a call.


I have been eyeing that one for some time also. The Folkways folks have great photography. LMK if you get this one... I have a place in my heart for Favilla instruments since my first guitar was one and I grew up in LI where their factory was located.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Nice-looking Fratelli Vinaccia. It is strange, tho, that the label has no date written in.

Jim

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## Fliss

> For Italian builders, Ebay UK is a better hunting ground than Ebay US and decent de Meglios come up at £100 ($200) or less quite frequently, although getting it sent to the US adds a lot of cost. #


Funny you should mention e-bay De Meglios, martin  

The postman delivered this one to my door today! It was a bit of a gamble, but if you spend £67 on an e-bay De Meglio (which had very poor auction photos) this is what you can end up with. I've literally just unpacked it, and haven't attempted to clean it or do anything else with it yet, sot hese are just my first impressions. It's very dirty. 

The top and bowl look in good condition, the tuners are all present and correct, and they do move, and the neck looks straight. The one course of strings that's on it suggests that the action should be very good. The bridge looks to be the original one - it's got the brass saddle, and it's a lovely elegant shape.

It's missing its sleeve guard and its little string-pully-downy-thingy (sorry I'm sure there's a technical term for it!), also some edging. More of a problem is the fact that it's missing a few frets, including the zero fret, and some of its fretboard markers.

More to follow!

Fliss

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## Fliss

Here's the label - the date says 1898, and model 1 (A). Martin and I have had a recent discussion about De Meglio models, and I can tell you that the grain on the top of this is similar to my other De Meglio, not the finer grain like Tony's. There was a question over whether model 1 (A) denoted better wood - this one may suggest not.

The text at the bottom of the label says: "Gardez vous des mandolines De Meglio falsifies pour les falsificateurs on recours au droit de loi" - so that's told us! 

Fliss

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## Fliss

This photo shows the part of the instrument that's causing me most concern. For some reason, De Meglios often seem to look as if they've had the neck broken and repaired at some stage, but this one really does give that impression - what do you folks think?

Fliss

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## Fliss

And I couldn't resist taking a photo of this one with my other De Meglio, bought, curiously, exactly a year to the day from when I bought this new one!

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## Jim Garber

> This photo shows the part of the instrument that's causing me most concern. For some reason, De Meglios often seem to look as if they've had the neck broken and repaired at some stage, but this one really does give that impression - what do you folks think?


Congratulations, Fliss. You are cornering the Demeglio market!! 

Hard to tell from the photo, but many of the Italian bowlbacks have some sort of joint under a veneer that makes it look like the neck had been repaired. Maybe it is just part of the veneer that peeled off?

Jim

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## Fliss

Thanks Jim! I'm not aiming to build up a collection of De Meglios - this is not going to become an annual event  It's just that although it plays brilliantly and sounds great, I never liked the rather orangey finish of the one I've got, and I had been thinking recently that if I was doing it again I'd do it slightly differently. So this is my chance to have another go and see if this one can turn out to be even better than the first one! 

It could be just that the veneer's come off, but the wood does look to be slightly coming apart. I'm trying to work out if it's just the way the neck is constructed. 

A little bit more info - on closer inspection, the fretboard, which is very thin, is slightly warped and coming away from the neck at the nut end, where the frets are missing. 

Fliss

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## Jim Garber

Fliss:
Was your orange one refinished or over finished? Mine has practically no finish on the top. I do believe that these were finished very lightly to allow the top to sound well. If you like the way the orange one sounds you could have the refinish (if that is what it is) taken off.

Jim

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## Fliss

Jim, thanks for your comments. #The orange one was a bit orange when I got it, so I suspect that may have been original. #

Here's a pic of the orange one as it was when I got it. 

I have thought about seeing if that finish can be taken off, but wasn't sure if that would be feasible. If there's a chance it could be done, I might take it back to him and see what he can do. #I remember seeing a photo of your De Meglio and thinking "I want mine to look like that!" #Whereas the one I've just bought looks as if it has no finish on it, and will look like yours when it's cleaned up.

Fliss

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## Martin Jonas

Difficult to say what is original and what is not. For what it's worth, the finish on Fliss's "older" de Meglio when she got it looks exactly like the finish on my Carlo Rinaldi (which is a de Meglio clone), whereas the finish on Jim's de Meglio looks like my Ceccherini. I wonder whether one of the factors here is the model number: Fliss's older one is a model B, the latest one is a 1A. We have another de Meglio in our ensemble, which is also a 1A and is blonde (but has clearly been refinished sometime in the last 20-odd year, when the binding and fretboard were also replaced and a Gibson-type tailpiece put on).

Regarding the neck, I haven't seen it in person yet, but the old Italians had a soft wood neck with a hard wood veneer. If the veneer comes off, the underlying soft wood may well look quite rough. I believe that much of the neck's stability comes from the bent veneer, so if it's really down to the underlying soft wood, then it would be a good idea to replace the veneer to restore stability.

Interesting logo on that label, by the way. I don't think I've seen this before. G.M.F. presumably stands for "Giovanni de Meglio Figlio", and the morse-code like bit underneath is the shape of the side vents.

Martin

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## brunello97

These veneered Italian necks are interesting to me, Martin. And puzzling. I have a Stridente where some veneer has been lost and a true mystery wood appears below. The veneer is quite thin on this-it has puckered in some areas-and this, at least, seems like it wouldn't contribute much rigidity. 

I wonder if other makers used thicker veneer on the necks. (A mystery to me how they can so carefully shape and taper that) True, a thicker veneer might form a 'tube' of sorts potentially helping to stiffen the neck. But it is a strange economy if that. Acer opalus being fairly widespread, for instance.

Mick

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## Bob A

I tend to think that veneer on Italian bowlback necks was a way to conceal cheap or unattractive woods. These guys were into building lightweight instruments; maple was too heavy. So they'd use a lighter wood, and cover it to make it look classy. Any stiffening effect was just an extra, on the side.

It was not necessarily something found only on inexpensive models, to be sure. My midlevel Calace has rosewood veneer, as do both my Ceccherini instruments. While neither is bottom-line production, one is definitely museum-quality work, with ivory and silver and pearl inlay. 

I recall winning , at a very good price, a Cristofaro mandolin from France. I was very raw at the bowl game then, and thought the veneer line indicated that the peghead had snapped and been reglued. Like an idiot, I sent it back. I'm certain the seller eventually resold it, at probably 3x what I'd paid.

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## Fliss

The veneer of this one doesn't look to be very thick, but I guess it wouldn't need to be, in order to contribute to the structural strength. #

Now that I've got daylight to see and photograph it better, here's a photo that shows the problem and the neck construction in more detail. #It does look as if the builder has used layers of shaped wood to make up the shape of the neck and peghead. Presumably this layered construction would have made it stronger than using a single piece of wood?

You can clearly see that there's daylight where there shouldn't be daylight - but it doesn't look like a break in the wood, it looks (to my admittedly uneducated eyes) like a small separation between different layers of wood used in the construction.

You can also see in this shot the warping of the fretboard at the nut end. And you can see that I was wrong about the zero fret being missing, it looks to be there, just tarnished to a dull green and sunk to the level of the fretboard - or the fretboard has lifted to the level of the fret.

Fliss

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## Phil Hopkins

I'm no luthier, nor do I play one on TV, but I've been a furniture maker (at times professionally) for almost 30 years, so I'll venture an opinion on the veneer/stability question. The veneer itself should add very little to stability, and if really thin, nothing. The fact that it is glued to the neck, though, would add something as long as the glue holds. A quite thin lamination stabilizes wood some as long as it is a good lamination. I don't think the shape of the lamination is a factor except if the shape can help with tension or compression, which I don't think it would in these cases. If it were a complete tube, then yes, but a V shape, I don't _think_ so.

Much depends on the stability of the wood underneath, which is of course different for different species (the mesquite I cut and use lately is almost as dimensionally stable as metal) and different for different pieces of the same species depending on growth patterns and the way the piece was cut from the tree. Laminations of the underlying neck wood would of course add significantly to the stability if done well. But a neck that's going to move is going to move and the veneer on it will move with it or eventually give. 

If, as Martin, Mick and Bob suggest, the necks are of soft wood, then I'm also betting that they are mostly laminated up in order to ensure stability, and the veneer is there for looks. They could, of course, laminate hardwoods, but if they were going to laminate and then cover with veneer to hide the laminations, then I'm guessing that they'd go with softwoods for the economy, since a lamination is a lamination and some softwoods are decently dimensional. The wood would probably be something local. In the 19th c. and older furniture I restored for a while, the wood under veneers and in secondary parts was often poplar (the local stuff, not the tulip poplar you can buy at home depot) or some other non-commercial and softer wood.

I'm sure there are others at the cafe that know much more about all of this, especially as applied to musical instruments. I made one guitar, and although an immensely pleasurable experience, I didn't know anything about the important matters of the acoustic qualities of construction options and was dissatisfied with the result. These are just my thoughts from working in a related field.

Phil

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## brunello97

Phil,

I'm not leaning with the softwood neck idea crowd, though I appreciate your willingness to wade into the water here. If maple was a wood of choice for violin necks, it would would seem counterintuitive to switch to a soft-wood for mandolin necks. Bob, I can't imagine the weight difference being such an issue here, particularly in light of the violin tradition (and how much would it amount to avoirdupois?) 

Ockham's Razor suggests the cosmetic to hide the head/neck joint or simply for the delight of the laminate wood. (I've seen some sharp necks.) Given the habit of stripping the finish off bg necks to improve playability I wonder if the veneer might offer some slickness in that regard. But structural? Who knows? I'm still learning new things every day, about how buildings stand up and how mandolins come together. Some days they both feel like all part of the same thing. Those are good days.

I wonder if some of our Continental friends have a read on this?

Mick

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## Fliss

Here's a closer view of the exposed wood beneath the veneer on my "new" De Meglio. Does this help anyone to identify what kind of wood this is likely to be?

Fliss

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## Neil Gladd

> I'm not leaning with the softwood neck idea crowd, though I appreciate your willingness to wade into the water here. If maple was a wood of choice for violin necks, it would would seem counterintuitive to switch to a soft-wood for mandolin necks. Bob, I can't imagine the weight difference being such an issue here, particularly in light of the violin tradition


I've been lead to believe that a heavier neck gives you more sustain. My American bowlback has a solid mahogony neck and it has amazing sustain, much more than most mandolins.

Most electric instruments have maple or oak necks, and they have a long sustain, too.

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## brunello97

> Most electric instruments have maple or oak necks, and they have a long sustain, too.


I think the eminent British musicologist, Nigel Tufnel, made a few important observations viz neck construction, material and sustain.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088258/quotes

Mick

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## Bob A

Someone used to market a heavy metal plate to attach to the back of guitar pegheads. Purpose was purportedly to increase sustain. Telecaster buffs natter on about bodies made of swamp ash. for acoustic reasons. Telecaster bodies, that is, not the human kind that Tufnel speaks of, which spontaneously combust. Although you'd get more BTUs from swamp ash.

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## jasona

Fliss, I don't want to sound alarmist, but that looks to me like a break repair that is starting to move. If the end of the headstock were to rotate upwards (say under string pressure), it would create both the gap you see on the neck AND the seperation of the fretboard. I'd get a pro to look at that.

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## brunello97

Jason, I think you are right here. It is interesting how the fretboard appears to have popped loose intact. I can't tell much from the photo, Fliss, but I'm going to stick with some kind of maple based on the ray flecks above the joint line and the blotch below-or is that remains of the veneer?

BTW Bob, I've heard rumors of the late Roy Buchanan having a Tele made of granite. You can imagine him playing a note and heading out with Nigel and the boys for a bite, coming back and.....

Mick

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## Fliss

> Fliss, I don't want to sound alarmist, but that looks to me like a break repair that is starting to move. If the end of the headstock were to rotate upwards (say under string pressure), it would create both the gap you see on the neck AND the seperation of the fretboard. I'd get a pro to look at that.


Don't worry, I've no intention of attempting to fix this myself, I know this mandolin is going to need to spend some quality time with a luthier if it's going to sing again. I knew it would need work, but I couldn't tell how much work from the auction photos, so it was always a gamble. But I think it's going to need more work than I'd originally anticipated, and certainly more than I'd hoped.

And the more I look at it, the more I see needing doing - yesterday I spotted that one of the braces is loose. 

Mick, the dark blotch I think you're referring to is some of the remaining veneer.

Fliss

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## Phil Hopkins

I suppose since I sounded off already, I might weigh in with the wood guesses. It's darned difficult to identify wood from pictures, but I think Mick could be right. Maple is a possibility. The grain looks a lot like beech. Would they use beech? 

It also looks like three different pieces just on the neck (not including the peghead). Wouldn't the scarf joint that is separating be the peghead to neck joint? That seems to be the sort of angle I'm used to from guitar construction. It looks like there's another wedge (which may not be the same wood, and looks a bit like mahogany in the picture) between that and the top part of the neck, and then another joint line of a very obtuse angle between all of that and the peghead. If that's right, and it's hard to tell from the picture, that's not a good angle for joining the two pieces, since it would be primarily end grain to end grain, which doesn't make for a solid joint. Is such an angle, if it is a joint line, a common practice on mandolins?

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## Jim Garber

> Clearly I should read over these posts for spelling errors before hitting the button!


As one who is a terrible typist and prone to speeling errers (sic)... you can edit your posts after they are posted , ie, post-posting.

Jim

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## dave17120

Hello Fliss, just picked up this discussion. I think I saw that mando on ebay, but I have so many waiting already...... never mind.

I woulnd't worry about what kind of wood, it looks fairly typical, and the join that is coming unglued IS the head-neck joint, which you will find under the veneer of most of the old bowls. The practice of slicing the head/neck wood at an angle, then turning the head section round and regluing to get your head angle, is an economy measure, it uses a lot less wood that way.

The veneer should not be too difficult to replace (have a look at that on the Mureda thread) and does cover up all the wood joins.

And with respect to your other de Meglio...... I have now restored a good few Neapolitans, and most of the older ones do NOT have any finish on top. Once the grease and dirt is removed you are down to bare wood. (Other than those that have had a DIY finish added) The ones that have been finished have tended to have varnish all over, and not French polish. I treat mine with Lem oil to try and help stop further adherence of grease.

Good luck with it, if I can be any help, let me know, Dave

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## Phil Hopkins

Some of you may have seen it on ebay, but I thought I would post a picture of my new (and first) bowlback.  It's just the ebay picture. When I get it, I'll take better pictures and post. It's a Washburn 215, and I think it's in pretty good condition. I'm looking forward to playing it. 



I very much appreciate all the extremely helpful information I received from folks here. 

Phil

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## Fliss

Phil, congratulations on your first bowlback # # It looks lovely. #I'll look forward to reading your report on how it sounds / feels etc once you have it! #How exciting!

Dave, thanks for your comments on my De Meglios. I'm sure I will want to pick your brain before too long!

Fliss

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## Jim Garber

Phil, welcome to the Loyal Order of the Bowl. Definitely let us know your impressions.

Jim

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## etbarbaric

Just a preliminary report on the "Abt Model" Vega that recently came my way via Ebay about a month ago (since I said I would). The instrument finally arrived after a particularly odd Fed-Ex journey that involved a lengthy detour to New Jersey (thanks to a wrongly-entered zip code).

The mandolin itself is rather wonderfully executed. Even held up to the nicer Vegas that I've seen, this one is just distinctly clean and fine. As per the catalog entry, the ribs are all separate, not made with the trick we sometimes see of subdividing wider ribs on the outside with a thin trim strip. The trim in general is discrete and reserved, but very nicely done. I am especially fond of the solid black fretboard. The position indicators on the side of the fretboard are more than adequate, and just exactly in the right place for the player (if you use such things).

The binding on the top turns out to be a tiny inked design on a very thin strip of pearl. Many pieces of the trim are missing, and this may well be a challenge to replace. Also, it is clear from the wear marks on the binding that this mandolin was extensively played, likely by an accomplished professional. The wear on the (treble) side of the binding near the neck implies that someone spent lots of time in the upper positions.

As usual, there are issues that become apparent once the instrument is in hand. I had asked the seller about what looked like a shim under the (compensated) bridge, in his original photographs. He answered that there was none. Well... I should have trusted my eyes because there is indeed a roughly 1mm shim under the entire bridge. Though this can sometimes indicate neck problems, in this case it is likely that a bar is at least a little loose under the cant of the top. There is a slight sinkage in the top at tension that I've seen with other Vegas that suffer this problem... accounting for the shim. The good news is that the instrument seems completely solid and stable under tension, and even with old strings doesn't drift out of tune. I don't think the seller intended to mis-lead... and I'll be keeping the instrument in any case.

The action is low and clean, and the sound so far is very encouraging. I can't wait to hear what it sounds like with the top pulled back up... 

Best,

Eric

----------


## Bob A

Eric, will you have an opportunity to compare it to the Vega Pettine model? I'd be curious regarding side-by-side comparisons, with regard to bracing and sound.

I hope the current bracing is sound. It can be an exercise in frustration getting these things back into proper shape, but once there, they seem to persist in good form for quite some time, thankfully.

It seems as though the Order of the Bowl is expanding, at whatever glacial pace. This is a Good Thing, and I plan on celebrating forthwith.

(I'd been lurking about the violinist.com website, and found there some small interest in the mandolin; of course I hastened to point to the Cafe, even though it had already been mentioned by Ellen Brandt, of distant memory. She appears to have taken up the fiddle, BTW)

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## etbarbaric

Alas, I have no Pettine Special... maybe someone should send me one... :-)

For what its worth, I think this mando has been in this configuration (with slightly depressed top) for quite some time. I will get it addressed at some point but I'm not too worried at this point.

Eric

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## Jim Garber

Sounds like a good one, Eric. Congratulations!

I think I asked this before: has anyone else even seen another of these? I have seen a few Pettine Specials and Lansing Specials out there but never an Abt.

I think Bob was hinting on a gathering of us bowlheads one of these days when we can have what those in the other areas call mandolin tastings.

Jim

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## Eugene

Congratulations, Phil. If it's as healthy as it looks, you got an excellent buy.

...And congrats Eric! I love the look of that thing, perhaps as much as any American mandolin I've seen.

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## Phil Hopkins

Well, that was fast shipping. The Washburn arrived today.

It needs some tlc, but it has a very nice tone with good sustain, at least in the first position. It's definitely a more open and ringing tone than my Eastman. And that's with the cruddy strings on it. I'll get some GHS classical lights, unless someone can tell me where to find Calace strings in the US. It has a couple of hairline cracks on the skirt and first (wide) stave. There are no cracks I can see on the top, with one possible exception. I can't tell if it's a scratch or hairline crack.

It has some issues, though. I thought I would mention a couple to get some feedback, since I'm such a novice at bbs, and mandolins generally.

The neck has a bit of a bow in it. If I lay a straightedge flat on the frets (with the strings in tension)then it touches the frets (which aren't, of course, strictly consistent in height themselves as I expect is natural on an instrument this age that's been played a good bit, and this one seems to have been played a good bit) at fret one and again at fret 13 or so and up the rest of the fret board, but frets 2-12 don't touch, and around 3-7 have about a 1mm gap. The strings are less than 3mm above the 12th (and even the 20th) frets. They are barely above the first fret.

The top doesn't have much of an angle to the cant. The bridge slants forward (I thought it should slant backward)I've attached a picture of this.



Also, the bridge might have been altered. See how low it is on the treble side in this picture. It also appears that the top around the soundhole on the bass side might be warped a small bit. I'm not sure it can be seen in this picture.



I'm not sure the tuners hold well (of course, I need new strings to determine this well), and are a little stiff, so I'd appreciate suggestions on how to do a little maintenance to the tuners. It has open tuners.

The main issue is intonation. It's horrible on the A string. It's not great on the G string, but is a problem mostly above the 10th fret on it (sharping). The D string and especially the E string appear to intone quite well all up the neck. The A string, however, sharps on the first fret and is very sharp all the way up when tuned to a good tone on the open string. It seems odd to me that every other course of strings would have intonation problems. I'm wondering what might be causes of this other than bridge position.

Those are the main concerns. Perhaps most of this is to be expected on a mandolin of this age, but I'd appreciate any insights and suggestions. 

Phil

----------


## Jim Garber

> I'll get some GHS classical lights, unless someone can tell me where to find Calace strings in the US.


Hi Phil:
I posted the answer to that Calace string question for you on this thread.

As far as the bow in the neck, that can be fixed by a competent luthier. if you want to play this thing you should prob have someone work on the neck and the frets. The luthier should also check out the top and make sure that the braces are firmly attached. 

Some of that intonation problem may be the strings on the mandolin. Are these old ones? In that case, you cannot tell anything about the intonation -- yet. 

My only Washburn has a sunken top so I never actually set it up to play. In addition, mine has covered tuners with the gear riveted on. One of the gears slips and I have to have that fixed as well. I think mine is in worse shape than yours. 

As we all learn in time these old guys are time- and money-intensive. Certainly, I (and quite a few others here) can attest to that.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Congratulations -- looks good. A little bit of neck relief is a good thing, but 1mm sounds a bit much. 3mm action at the 12th is higher than I would find comfortable. I try to set mine up for around 2mm; a little less on the E, maybe a bit more on G. As Jim said, you can't say anything about intonation with the old strings. Also, lowering the action a bit is likely to improve intonation, which with a straight non-compensated bridge is a compromise anyway. You need to set the best bridge position across all strings once you have new strings and once you have adjusted the action. I also wonder whether there might be a loose brace on the treble side of the soundboard: this may explain both the sidewards and forward slant of the bridge. You're right to think that the bridge should either be straight upright, or slanted slightly backwards.

What I do with open tuners is to clean them with a tiny amount of WD40, then let the solvent dry and lubricate them with an equally tiny amount of warm vaseline on a fine hairbrush. However, there have been threads over in the builders and equipment forums on the topic, and some have expressed a strong preference for teflon-based lubricants.

Good luck!

Martin

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## Jim Garber

I have also heard that WD40 may not be the best since it has some particulates in it. I think Paul Hostetter recommends some sort of bicycle lubricant, which I bought and have (of course) misplaced. It is probably under a pile of bowlback carcasses. My environs is like a graveyard for bowlbacks. I should ship them all to Dave in France.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

As I recall, Paul's objection to WD40 was that it's not a lubricating agent at all, but a cleaning agent with incidental lubrication benefit. I would agree with that, which is why I use it for cleaning only and then add another lubricant once it's clean. The bicycle lubricant is Triflow, which is the teflon-based lubricant I was referring to. I've been using Vaseline on a recommendation from Jon Springhall, and have not have had any adverse effects.

Martin

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## Bob A

The bridge being higher on the bass side does not strike me as unusual; the G string will be exhibiting greater excursion than an e string, and will need to clear the frets by a greater margin to avoid buzzing.

----------


## Jim Garber

Thread on WD-40

Thread on lubricating gears

Here is what Paul H said on the first thread:



> While its uses are many and varied, WD-40 should not be used as a general-purpose lubricant, as it dries very quickly and collects dust. This can result in serious damage to machinery and equipment designed for use with heavy oils when they are lubricated with lightweight WD-40.
> 
> I see no use for WD-40 anywhere in the world of music! In fact, I think it needs to be kept far away from instruments.


I also had corresponded with Bob Devellis on the subject of cleaning tuning gears. He uses naphtha (lighter fluid) and 600 grit emery paper to clean off the rusted parts and lubricates with vaseline. 

Jim

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## dave17120

OK, I'll own up........ I do sometimes use WD40.

Usually when I clean up machine heads, I brush with a wire brush, paying particular attention to the gear wheels, turning 1/4 turn and brushing again. This usually frees up everything enough. I then clean up the brass-work with a fine wire brush in a Dremel. Once clean, ONLY IF NECESSARY, I lubricate with a little with bicycle oil.

However, if I get a really rusted set that won't turn, how can you clean it with a wire brush. That's where the WD40 comes in!!!

The way I look at it is, use what's out there. All we can do is the best we can, with the tools we've got. I'm sure that's what the old guys did, and I'm sure they'd have been more than happy to use some of the more useful technical advances that we have available to us today.

PS Jim, I'd be happy to accept any 'throwouts' you want to throw my way. The Mureda was a challenge, mainly because my mum said, "You can never fix that can you?".... but it isn't the worst I have waiting!!  Dave

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## Phil Hopkins

What about just general cleaning of old mandolins? Is mineral spirits too strong? What is the recommendation about tops? 

As for the bridge, it's not that it's higher on the bass side, which seems right to me as well, but that the treble side has so little material under the large scallop, as the picture shows. About 1mm - 1/16th. This makes me think the bridge has been shaved (plus, it slants forward, which, unless it's on backwards, also suggests it's been shaved). That doesn't seem like much material left for refitting. 

Phil

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## dave17120

Hi Phil, for cleaning, a lightly dampened rag is safe, but for other cleaners it depends on the finish..... and its often difficult to know what it is.
Having said that, I have been quite successful using Meguiars on both french polish and varnishes. Gives it a nice shine. (Not exactly trad, but it works)

And I think you are right, the bridge does look as though it has been shaved.... if the playing height is only 3mm at fret 12, thats probably as low as the previous owner could get and still play without buzzes. (But as I think Martin said...too high!)

If you want a new bridge, send me the old one, and I'll make a new one, the same as the old, but with the scallops a bit less, to allow for a lower fitting.
Dave

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## Phil Hopkins

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the cleaning tip. And that's a wonderful offer on the bridge! I just may take you up on that. I'm thinking the bridge needs to be compensated as well, since the G and especially A course don't intonate well, while the D and E courses do. I've ordered some strings, so I need to try those to see whether that problem persists.

It seems from what people have said that all the issues I've noted so far can be dealt with. There's one remaining issue. I've attached a pic of what seems to be a little sinking between the bridge and the sound hole. It's about the same on both sides. Is this a concern? (Sorry about the focus) It really does have a very nice tone.

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## Bob A

As to cleaning, I've successfully used saliva as a cleaning agent on a very old, very grungy siolin. The advantages are threefold, at least: First, it forces you to clean a small section at a time, whcih prevents fluid from messing with the finish; second, the proteins in solution keep it somewhat viscous, so it doesn't run all over the place. These same proteins help dissolve grunge. Third, every mandolinist comes equipped with a lifetime supply.

The only downside is having to explain what you're doing, and with what. Best to do this sort of thing as a solitary exercise. (Your cat may become allergic to your dander. I don't consider this to be a negative; it's more in the category of payback).

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## Jim Garber

Bob:
I do like your neologism (is that the right word?) tho I think it should be spelled: soilin -- a very dirty violin.

As for your cleaning method... should I think twice about your invitation to visit and play your instruments?

Jim

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## Bob A

Well, that was an oops. I do like your soilin, though.

My mandolins have escaped my cleaning methods so far. But I have to stop hunting for cheap fiddles on ebay. There's a lot of fiddling going on thereabouts, and not the kind you do with a bow.

Still, I've comw up with a few good 'uns, despite the odds.

You're welcome to drop by and pick a bit. You takes your chances like everyone else.

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## Bob A

FWIW, George Manno has listed this bowlback inthe classifieds. Looks like an Embergher clone. I assume it's playable as-is; price is certainly right. All those lurkers looking for a bowlback experience might want to have a look-see.

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## Martin Jonas

Dr A. Leone is the owner of Musikalia, the most widely-available brand of cheap Italian bowlbacks and other mandokin. Although they seem reasonably well made for waht they are, I've never been particularly impressed with any Musikalia-branded instruments. I don't know whether the instruments made under his own name (maybe before Musikalia was started?) are a step up from his mass-produced factory instruments -- I seem to remember this has come up for discussion before.

The instrument in the classifieds doesn't look like any Musikalia instrument I've seen -- they have various vaguely Embergher-styled mandolins in their catalogue now, all of which seem very expensive for what they are and none of which looks much like the one on offer.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

Indeed, their low-end instruments are defensible, on a quality-per-price ratio; still, the low-end, all-mahogany (!) Neapolitan I once got for my mother-in-law on her 80th birthday does not intonate correctly.  The frets are simply poorly set. I also recall a report by Plamen from Bamberg, confirming that indeed most Musikalia instruments had similar inaccuracies. Too bad...

On the other hand, of course, if you are willing to shell out some two THOUSAND dollars or so, you most certainly have reason to expect better than the allegedly "high-end" Musikalia instruments have to offer.  And, to say the least, their "Embergher-esque" instruments are only superficially so.

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## Bob A

What? You mean you get what you pay for??

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## dave17120

"I've attached a pic of what seems to be a little sinking between the bridge and the sound hole. It's about the same on both sides. Is this a concern?"

I wouldn't woory, it looks fairly minimal compared to some I've seen, and if you put light classicals on it you should be fine. 
Drop me a line thru messenger if you want to follow up on the bridge. Dave

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## chas5131

What about Guriema? Good, bad, mediocre? Lark in the Moring is handling them.

http://www.guriema.de/mandolins.htm

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## Bob A

I've found the top of most bowlbacks to be pretty much convex. The bracing as well as the way the top was made would seem to create a pretty stiff structure. It seems to me that there must be a popped brace to permit that amount of concavity in the above instrument. I'll admit to not having a Washburn to compare.

A quick look at the Guriema mandolins was a bit shocking. They may play better than they look, but if I were Signor Calace, I'd be really upset at my name being used to describe these instruments. But my prejudices may be showing; I'm not particularly fond of German mandolins, at least, not the mass-produced ones. The entry-level Italian instruments from the early 20th century, on the other hand, are usually delightful (assuming they're playable, of course. Time does take a toll).

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## Martin Jonas

I have no direct experience with Guriema instruments, but there have been previous discussions here and here (although in neither instance had any of the contributors played a Guriema instrument).

Martin

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## Bob A

Seen on the 'bay: #This <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1935-Raffaele-Calace-mandolin-mandolino-mandoline_W0QQitemZ220087607023QQihZ012QQcategoryZ


10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">1935 Calace</a> is rather similar to mine of 1922.

The same seller has <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/mandolin-better-then-Embergher-mandolino-mandoline_W0QQitemZ220087604957QQihZ012QQcategory

Z10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">a Fantozzi</a> which he claims is "better than Embergher". You'll have to make your own decision on the topic.

And another, this one by<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ITALIAN-MANDOLIN-from-MICHELE-CELETANO-VINACCIA_W0QQitemZ250090433881QQihZ015QQcategoryZ1  0
179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Michele Celentano.</a>

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## Embergher

> A quick look at the Guriema mandolins was a bit shocking. They may play better than they look, but if I were Signor Calace, I'd be really upset at my name being used to describe these instruments.


I fully agree! ... I don't see at all what these mandolins have in common with Calace instruments.
It's nothing new really ... I'm sure Calace Sr., Embergher and other top luthiers will have turned many times in their graves over the last 50 years #

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## Embergher

> The same seller has <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/mandolin-better-then-Embergher-mandolino-mandoline_W0QQitemZ220087604957QQihZ012QQcategory
> 
> 
> 
> Z10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">a Fantozzi</a> which he claims is "better than Embergher". You'll have to make your own decision on the topic.


This is one of the often used ways to make sure people who search for "embergher" notice your listing ... and are hopefully ignorant enough to believe such nonsense.

The seller says "Fantozzi was one of the most famous followers of the Embergher and De Santis school" ... 
This instrument would even make me doubt if Fantozzi ever had a real Embergher or De Santis in his hands ... I don't see any particular efforts to copy any Embergher or De santis features, this looks like a normal vintage Roman mandolin. 
(As well as a Neapolitan mandolin is not by definition a copy of a Vinaccia or Calace, a Roman mandolin is not by definition a copy of a De Santis or Embergher)

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## Jim Garber

Not only that, but the seller says that this Fantozzi mandolin is "better then Embergher."

Jim

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## brunello97

While I greatly appreciate Ralf and other's attempts to defend the legacy of these great instruments I wish it were the case for Washburn, Vega, Fender etc over here. But we shouldn't be so quick to condemn this seller. Maybe this is just a case of poor Ebay translation service.....

Perhaps the original ad said "Bigger than Embergher"

or perhaps "You'd Better Bid on This" or maybe "Butter on this Hamburger".

A lot gets lost in translation.

I was in Todi once asking directions to the church of Santa Maria della Colazione.

While there is a wide pantheon of useful saints in Catholicism, I now know that Italians have yet to move in that direction. They have acknowledged my own people's perhaps head start in beatifying this particular patron of the mid-day culinary arts:

http://digilander.libero.it/caramadaria/tappa2.htm

Passing on a real opportunity for public ridicule, the Umbrians steered me to my true destination:

http://www.bellaumbria.net/Todi/sant...azione_eng.htm

Here's hoping that the idea was passed along to those in the Vatican with the power to augment the roster of le sante.

Nice looking trio, however, that Bob posted.

Mick

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## Embergher

> Not only that, but the seller says that this Fantozzi mandolin is "better then Embergher."
> 
> Jim


Yes, that's what I meant with "such nonsense" ... 
it's not very credible to compare the quality of one particular mandolin to that of "any" of another luthier.

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## Jim Garber

> While I greatly appreciate Ralf and other's attempts to defend the legacy of these great instruments I wish it were the case for Washburn, Vega, Fender etc over here.


Funny you should mention it. The other day I was heading down to New York City for a rehearsal prior to Carlo Aonzo's workshop. I usually take my Pandini but climatic conditions are causing some rather annoying buzzing etc and I needed to take another mandolin.

No problem since I have way too many. I then tried my Vega style 3 which I have never really played and was amazed by both the tone and the playbility of that little instrument. Nice sustain and sweetness. Who knew? 

Jim

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## trebleclef528

Quote
chas5131 
What about Guriema? #Good, bad, mediocre? #Lark in the Moring is handling them.
http://www.guriema.de/mandolins.htm #

I've seen and had my hands on a couple of Guriema and I would say "mediocre", perhaps with the exception of the portuguese style mandola which was pretty good. Also of interest are the smaller "childrens mandolin", one of the few makers who builds these nowadays.

They are definately not the high end of German Mandolins (although might be OK for a reasonable starter instrument)... I have noted however that some older mandolins made by Dieter Egerland (who is a luthier with Guriema) are very good quality... but these were made under his own name.. possibly before he joined Guriema.. if indeed, and I think it is, the same Dieter Egerland!)

Finally... to call any of the instruments "Calace style" I think is basically just nonesense..it's becoming a term that a lot of builders are using... but there's definately nothing "Calace" about the Guriema mandolins (at least non that I've seen.
Best wishes
ian

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## Jim Garber

> I'm not sure the tuners hold well (of course, I need new strings to determine this well), and are a little stiff, so I'd appreciate suggestions on how to do a little maintenance to the tuners. It has open tuners.


As per our tuner discussion: I just received this from Stew-Mac: How to Clean and Lube Tuning Machines.

Jim

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## JeffD

> As to cleaning, I've successfully used saliva as a cleaning agent 
> 
> The only downside is having to explain what you're doing,


Just tell them you used to be a banjo player - and you are learning to overcome your drooling.

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## Jim Garber

This nicely ornamented, long fretboard 1905 mandolin by Giovanni Minieri went for more than I thought, despite the serious work needed for restoring it.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Clearly it has paid for the seller of the Minieri to concentrate on close-ups and only to show the whole mandolin, and its serious cracks, as an afterthought. I would think this is rather a lot more than I would be willing to pay, but maybe the winning bidder is interested in it as an antique rather than a playable musical instrument. It does seem to be decent workmanship, unlike some Catania-made overdecorated fluted bowls I've seen.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

1894 Embergher Model 3

...'nuff said??

$3000 or so? It is already above my current means. It would be nice if someone here got it.

Jim

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## brunello97

> 1894 Embergher Model 3
> 
> ...'nuff said??
> 
> $3000 or so? It is already above my current means. It would be nice if someone here got it.
> 
> Jim


Wow, maybe the coolest case ever.

Mick

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## Bob A

There's a fancy <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/RAFFAELE-CALACE-1903-13-Mandoline-mandolin-mandolino_W0QQitemZ330097347799QQcategoryZ10179


QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item330  097347799" target="_blank">Calace</a> in Austria. Eight days to go; I suspect it will go high.


Also, in Italy, a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLINO-1913-F-LLI-VINACCIA-NAPOLI-ACCASIONE-5-00_W0QQitemZ160094450194QQcategoryZ359QQs

sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item160094  450194" target="_blank"> Vinaccia</a> in need of a bridge and tuner button (at least). The seller apparently BELIEVES IN SHOUTING!!!

Also in Italy: a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLINO-LIUTAIO-LUIGI-MOZZANI-ORIGINALE_W0QQitemZ110101356745QQcategoryZ10179QQs  sPageNam
eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item110101356745" target="_blank">Mozzani boatback</a> with extensive text (in Italian).

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## Martin Jonas

Well, we all know those 12-string monsters, but how about this thing. 16 strings in four quadruple-string courses. Looks like on the lower courses they mixed one octave string in. At least one wouldn't need to be worried about bracing if it's converted to an eight-string.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

> There's a fancy <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/RAFFAELE-CALACE-1903-13-Mandoline-mandolin-mandolino_W0QQitemZ330097347799QQcategoryZ10179
> 
> QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item330  097347799" target="_blank">Calace</a> in Austria. Eight days to go; I suspect it will go high.


I know these are highly-prized and very collectible, but they are just _sooooo_ ugly. I really don't know what Raffaele was thinking. The D-shaped soundhole and the scratchplate just set my teeth on edge.

Martin

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## Bob A

I dunno about that 16-stringer. Are angels allowed to DO that? Shocking. ANd perhaps not surprising to find the instrument self-destructing, probably from internal tensions, or Divine fiat.

Others have found fault with the D-shaped soundhole. Cristofaro mandolins seem to use them, as did the Disantino I had. They are odd, but seem to echo the Deco taste of the time. 

I rather like the D-holes in the Selmer guitars, but of course the letter is rotated to be axially symmetric, a more pleasing aesthetic.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Well, we all know those 12-string monsters, but how about this thing. 16 strings in four quadruple-string courses.


Well... as a friend of ours says, "there is no such thing as a dead mandolin" tho I have to say that there are things that may be best put to rest. 

Jim

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## brunello97

Well, maybe a bit early for Art Deco, but perhaps influenced by Art Nouveau, Jugendstil or the Liberty style as it sometimes is called in Italy. Here is a house in Firenze with a window in the same shaped opening:

I love the house, but I'm with you Martin, the mandolin is a bit much for me eye (though probably just right for my ear.)

Mick

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## Bob A

Nouveau it is. Fortunately I'm of an age where brain misfiring is not only a reality, but also serves very well as an excuse.

Now, what was I saying?

----------


## Phil Hopkins

Here's a moderately ornate model. 

 No Name

Any guesses as to maker? The headstock veneer and fretboard have heat cracked, it looks like.

Phil

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## vkioulaphides

> "I know these are highly-prized and very collectible, but they are just sooooo ugly. I really don't know what Raffaele was thinking. The D-shaped soundhole and the scratchplate just set my teeth on edge."


Thank you, Martin! I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. Yes, the bizarre asymmetry of the soundhole, the gratuitous kitsch... *ugh*  

If I were a rich man --sung to the familiar tune from Fiddler on the Roof  -- and ever wished to upgrade from my (perfectly adequate, by the way) No. 26, I would bypass all the progressively gawdier "intermediate" models, and shoot straight up to the refreshinly plain _Classico_. But I am not, and so the point is moot  

Best luck to all happy bidders.

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> "I know these are highly-prized and very collectible, but they are just sooooo ugly. I really don't know what Raffaele was thinking. The D-shaped soundhole and the scratchplate just set my teeth on edge."
> 
> 
> Thank you, Martin! I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. Yes, the bizarre asymmetry of the soundhole, the gratuitous kitsch... *ugh*


Ditto. Ugly, ugly, ugly!

----------


## Bob A

The "ornate no-name" looks very American to me. I won't hazard a guess as to manufacturer. Absent hands-on experience with it, I'd not chase it very far, personally. 

I was pretty sure Victor would find the D-hole Calace personally abhorrant. Myself, I've never been able to get over the funky cuts in the end of the fingerboard on the Classico model. Thank the mandolin gods that there's such a prolific variety of these thing: something to offend Everybody!

----------


## Phil Hopkins

I was calling it "moderately ornate" in reference to the truly ornate Calace that seems to be disturbing everyone. :-} I suppose the "no name" has more decoration than some, particularly American, mandolins, but I think it's tasteful enough. If someone forced me to vote, I'd vote against the Calace. Garish is the word that comes to mind.  

I don't know if anyone's seen the Cylinder back Vega

or the Washburn

The Washburn is ornate for an American mandolin, it seems to my untutored eye. I expect the Vega will go for much more than its current price. 

Phil

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## vkioulaphides

> "Myself, I've never been able to get over the funky cuts in the end of the fingerboard on the Classico model."


Yes, there _are_ those...  *sigh*

The (acoustical?) defense of either those or the D-holes seems very, very tenuous, at best.

----------


## Embergher

> Originally Posted by  (vkioulaphides @ Mar. 14 2007, 11:03)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by  
> 
> ...


I can only agree with all of you ...
Well, that brings us to the ever tastefully designed Emberghers then  #
(that is if you forget the cetra-madamis of course # )

----------


## Bob A

It's a funny thing about instruments . . . while we all are essentially Players, it seems that our first selection parameter is appearance. (This has apparently proven true in the violin world, as well; the actual sound and playability ranks about third overall in the selection process).

So. I will deign to accept, without the slightest curl of lip or wrinkle of nose, the above-mentioned Calace, from anyone willing to send it my way. You, unknown donor, will have the satisfaction of knowing that the instrument will not appear publicly until my demise, if then. Sr Calace's instrument will be afforded protection from the elements and abuse, and will be passed on eventually, under cover of darkness, to someone all of whose taste will be in his mouth, so to speak.

A dirty job, but SOMEone has to do it.

Now, what is a cetra-madami(s?)? 

And, yet again, has anyone come up with the purpose (if indeed there IS one) for the ivory eyelets let into the table of the Calace instruments? Great minds want to know.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Now, what is a cetra-madami(s?)?


See page 12 in Ralf's book (I thought you had it, Bob) is Embergher's take on the dreaded lyra-mandolin. Sort of bizarro-superman version of that Calace instrument which is bizarre in itself. This is just another evidence that every luthier, no matter how otherwise tastefull in his/her design, has some lapses in judgement.

I will let Ralf elaborate on this "beauty."

I have to agree that the Calace is uuuuuuuuh-gly for sure. The only that that competes with it are Cristofaro works which add a fish-tail headstock to an already oddball creation.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is the Cetra-madami (scanned from Ralf's book -- I hope he doesn't mind). Scary, eh?

I think these were commissioned by a Professor Aldebrando Madami, for what nefarious purpose, I don't know. It looks like one of those things drawn on a napkin after a night of imbibing grappa or worse.

Jim

----------


## Embergher

> See page 12 in Ralf's book (I thought you had it, Bob) is Embergher's take on the dreaded lyra-mandolin. Sort of bizarro-superman version of that Calace instrument which is bizarre in itself. This is just another evidence that every luthier, no matter how otherwise tastefull in his/her design, has some lapses in judgement.
> 
> I will let Ralf elaborate on this "beauty."


I'll make it easy for myself and quote what I've posted here some time ago ... #



> " ... The Cetra-Madami is clearly a product of its time. There was a demand for such things and even Embergher couldn't escape of it, but of course these instruments are not to be taken seriously. The entire quartet was only made because it was marketable at the time. It's only "fashion" and nothing else. 
> BTW, if you just try to hold such an instrument properly, you immediately notice that this is very difficult and feels awkward (the overall shape and flat back don't provide the right proportions which are needed to hold the mandolin in a traditional way). Also problematic is the shape of the table (and body) at the highest positions of the fingerboard (fret 16 - 29). It is nearly impossible to even reach that part of the fingerboard with a "natural" hand position, let alone to do any fast playing there.
> Well, some "maestri" will certainly have used these instruments, but in Italy you don't have to be an exceptional concert player or virtuoso to be called "maestro" ... it is the common titel for any one who knows how to play an instrument. 
> I'm sure Embergher would never have dared to recommend these instruments to his important clients... "

----------


## Embergher

> It's a funny thing about instruments . . . while we all are essentially Players, it seems that our first selection parameter is appearance. (This has apparently proven true in the violin world, as well; the actual sound and playability ranks about third overall in the selection process).


Funny you should mention this, but my very first reason to like Embergher mandolins so much was definitely the way they feel!
When I was 6 and just started to play mandolin, I had a Suzuki mandolin and my teacher a 1924 rosewood 5bis Embergher ... at the beginning of each lesson he would tune my mandolin and I was to hold his mandolin and play the open strings for him ... what an amazing difference it was compared to my Suzuki! To me, the incredibly narrow V-shaped neck, the fluted ribs, the way the neck flowed into the teardrop shape of the table, the big crank of the table, ... all this - and the total weight which seemed only half of that of my Suzuki, felt like magic!
Of course I also very much liked the sound and the elegant appearance, but most of all I liked the extremely comfortable feeling - and it still is very important to me.




> And, yet again, has anyone come up with the purpose (if indeed there IS one) for the ivory eyelets let into the table of the Calace instruments? Great minds want to know.


Just a guess, but according to Calace's taste in those days ... to make it look even more "attractive"? #

----------


## Bob A

Yes, of course I have Ralf's book - two copies, in fact. But the truth of the matter is that when I saw the Thing in question therein, I experienced a near-terminal brain freeze. "NO!" I said to myself, "This cannot be! The man who created the exquisite mandolins I so admire could not have done such a thing!". Ah, well, perhaps it was anchovy pizza before bedtime. When he woke up, screaming, he had to exorcise the vile image somehow, so chose to build it and then burn it. No doubt he was distracted, and the Thing was sold before he could attend to the conflagration.

Yeah, Cristofaro's fishtail truly defines bad taste. Well, no one's perfect. See above.

And Ralf, lest you take permanent offence at my rant, be aware thay I have experienced just what you describe. It is almost impossible for me to play my Pecoraro without (ahem) fondling it first. The hand, eye and mind are combined in their delight at handling such a truly lovely instrument. While my playing in no way fits me for ownership of such a mandolin, the pleasure I take in its presence must surely override mere lack of talent. These mandolins are works of art, no less.

----------


## Jim Garber

> 1894 Embergher Model 3
> 
> ...'nuff said??
> 
> $3000 or so? It is already above my current means. It would be nice if someone here got it.
> 
> Jim


Already at $2,325.

Jim

----------


## trebleclef528

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the Embergher hit $5000 or well above... certainley in the UK people seem more than will to pay £2000/£3000 +++ for a mando like this... God ... sometimes I wish I was rich!. but then again life would be to easy... and i like a challenge...sigh!!!
ian

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## Jim Garber

Three Emberghers -- no waiting! sold by our illustrious Ralf. I am sure they are wonderful instruments. Perhaps we may keep a few in our Cafe family?

I am still getting my study A in shape to truly play. I may have to wait until true spring weather arrives here.

Jim

----------


## Fliss

That 1924 Embergher is lovely. Looks like a twin to Martin's, and yours is the same, isn't it Jim?

BTW, an update following the photos I posted a few weeks ago of the De Meglio I recently picked up - it needs too much work to make it economic for me, so I'm selling it on, and will keep my eyes open for a better example.  

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

> That 1924 Embergher is lovely. Looks like a twin to Martin's, and yours is the same, isn't it Jim?
> 
> BTW, an update following the photos I posted a few weeks ago of the De Meglio I recently picked up - it needs too much work to make it economic for me, so I'm selling it on, and will keep my eyes open for a better example.


Fliss... sell the Demeglio and buy one of Ralf's Emberghers. How many Demeglios do you need? :-)

Yes, mine is 1913 and Martin's is 1915. There are prob some slight differences from those from the 1920s.

Jim

----------


## Fliss

> Fliss... sell the Demeglio and buy one of Ralf's Emberghers. How many Demeglios do you need? :-)


 I think I'd have to raid the savings too... 

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

Let's see what the formula is:
6.3 DeMeglios = 1 Embergher Type A (retail)

You deserve the best, Fliss! Right, Martin? 

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Absolutely -- go for it, Fliss. After all, your flattop used up only half your budget...

That 1924 is indeed almost identical to mine and to Jim's. My original bridge was ebony, this one looks rosewood and my tuner buttons are some nice-looking stained natural material (not sure if wood or horn) whereas these seem black bakelite. Interesting to see Ralf's comment on the quality of the wood. Mine (and I think also Jim's) have similarly tight and parallel grain on the spruce top to Ralf's, and my maple is also pretty similar in figure to it. However, I've seen other 1920s Tipo A Emberghers with _much_ wider and irregular spruce. I think mine has had a bit more use than this one -- I have some scuff marks on the bowl whereas this one is entirely pristine. Should be a wonderful instrument -- let's see how high it goes (and whether it hits Ralf's reserve).

Martin

Edit: I've just noticed that Ralf's description says that the bowl has been refinished. That probably explains the difference to mine.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Originally Posted by  (jgarber @ Mar. 12 2007, 19:34)
> 
> 1894 Embergher Model 3
> 
> ...'nuff said??
> 
> $3000 or so? It is already above my current means. It would be nice if someone here got it.
> 
> Jim
> ...


Almost at $3000 and 6+ hours to go. I say $3300-3500.

Jim

----------


## Fliss

> Absolutely -- go for it, Fliss. #After all, your flattop used up only half your budget...


You guys are a bad influence!

Fliss

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## InspectorMorse

Fliss,
Wanna go halves on it...lol

----------


## trebleclef528

I still reckeon it could hit $5000 !!

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## Jim Garber

> I still reckeon it could hit $5000 !!


I think you are correct, Ian. It is already at $3500 with three hours to go.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Well, I think Ian wins the contest for this one for coming closest. $4800 by a bidder who has previously bought a few other lower priced bowlbacks recently. I hope thi sperson has some monmey left for repairs/restoration. I can't imagine any of these that didn't need some work.

Jim

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## Bob A

Interesting instruments coming out of the closet these days. This seller has a few that might be of interest.

And a relatively rare <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Mandocello-testa-mod-Embergher-no-mandolino-mandola_W0QQitemZ160095704830QQcategoryZ10179Q



QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">bowlback mandocello</a>.

Perhaps a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Sehr-schoene-Mandoline-Raffaele-Calace_W0QQitemZ140098539163QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1  QQcmdZVi


ewItem" target="_blank">1925 Calace</a> might be tempting?

Or perhaps you, like me, have overindulged? Then you might wish that you could 

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLINE-Musikmotivstempel-Instrument-Orchester_W0QQitemZ330097140467QQcategoryZ10179QQr  d

Z1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">stamp out bowlbacks. </a>

----------


## Jim Garber

> Perhaps a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Sehr-schoene-Mandoline-Raffaele-Calace_W0QQitemZ140098539163QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1  QQcmdZVi
> 
> 
> 
> ewItem" target="_blank">1925 Calace</a> might be tempting?


That Calace link didn't work. This one should, but it has ended with Buy It Now.

I like those hole-in-the-head models.

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

This morning I am experiencing "counter-psychological relief".  To wit, Ralf's three Emberghers are --duly so-- rising in pricing. Unlike expert forecasters (e.g. Jim G.), I will not hazard a guess. Suffice it to say that, assuming that the recent past is projected, trend-wise, upwards to what the final price might be, I will not be bidding myself.

And that, perhaps, is a good thing. My bass-player(alias E.T.) fingers would probably not fit on such a delicate creature; they ~barely~ fit on my modern Calace, which is 26 mm. wide at the nut. Then I would be confronted with the equally torturous choices of either keeping a lovely instrument that I would NEVER actually _play_ --a waste and a misallocation of precious resources, as far as I am concerned-- or embark on resale efforts-- something I have no interest in doing. I _play_ mandolins, I _write_ music for them; I don't _trade_ in them.  

This morning, as I arrived at the conservatory, I could hear someone in a practice-room, upstairs from my office, playing the Beatles' "Let It Be". My thoughts, exactly.

Aesop's Fox (relieved to conclude that the grapes were sour  )

----------


## Bob A

One feels that our Composer in Residence might have been tempted by a Roman beauty. I certainly empathise. As one who has taken a position more or less diametrically opposed to that of our Aesopian apartment-dweller, I can offer only limited solace. As a veritable bowlback-magnet, who can seldom refuse the Siren song of a shapely body and a lovely voice, I can but wish that previous excesses have perforce eliminated me from contention. Someday I will thrill to the tones of my very own early Embergher, I have no doubt. But alas, not this time.

I do, however, salute Ralf in his effort to increase exposure to these lovelies. As one who has pursued these things with more passion than good sense, I also thank him for spacing tha auctions out over several hours; those disappointed in earlier contests will be able to marshall their resources for another attempt, and then perhaps a third. 

Boy howdy, how I wish I were still in the game. Those be some gorgeous mandolins. I only hope that we here will snap them up, that Victor and I may enjoy vicariously.

And Victor, "trade" is a concept that can easily be overwritten by a more felicitous phrase. I'm fond, personally, of "catch and release".

----------


## Martin Jonas

Sour the grapes may be, but (at the moment) still rather reasonable. I have a feeling there is still some margin left to go, though.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

Oh, certainly, Martin. But, of course, most people are not bass-players, and are consequently not, ah... _blessed_  with my bulbous fingerpads-- wherein, naturally, lies said "sourness". Yes, I expect all three instruments to sell for a good deal more than their current standing.

Frankly speaking, I have spent precious little time playing mandolin recently-- a matter, of course, to be remedied in a BIG way this coming weekend, with hours on end of blissful pluckery at Carlo's New York Workshop.  In light of that, if nothing else, more _mandolins_ is hardly the answer to the underlying, perennial, psychological question, "What else do I want in order to be happy?"  

Let others tread boldly where my thoughts have wandered...

----------


## Martin Jonas

Well, the first of the triumvirat has sold after nearly doubling in price in the last five minutes: $2850 for the 1905 Orchestral No. 1.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

Ehm... <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Deluxe-Bowl-Back-Italian-Mandolin-with-Art-Design-New_W0QQitemZ220093568111QQcategoryZ1017
9QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">"of note"</a>only in the sense of "I've never seen _anything QUITE like_ this thing..."  

The question, however, remains: is it cherry-flavored?

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## Jim Garber

Lovely, Victor, and it looks like it might have a pretty wide fretboard as well.

See ya lata

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Ah, but soona dan lata!

----------


## Fliss

Well, the second of Ralf's Emberghers went for $1825.

Fliss

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## Martin Jonas

And the one that needs refinishing went for $870. I'm actually surprised at the low prices for both of the student models. Clearly, one of them needs refinishing which would take a lot off, and I wonder whether the other one lost value because the bowl has already been refinished. I thought the 1924 Embergher was the pick of the bunch and $1825 doesn't seem all that much money for it.

Martin

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## brunello97

Yes, Martin, for what little I know of these it seemed like a reasonable price. I hope Ralf did well enough by the sales. The timing here stayed my hand. End of summer I am always flush, and in the run up to April 15 it is always frijoles and tortillas.

Mick

----------


## Embergher

Hello all,

Nice to read your comments about my mandolins on Ebay. As I was the seller, I didn't want to give any comments as long as the auctions were going. I didn't particularly want to sell them, 
but as Bob said, collectors sometimes have to "catch and release"... unless you're rich enough to keep buying expensive mandolins without ever selling one. As these were not my only N°1 and type A, I thought it would be interesting to think in terms of "TypeA + TypeA + N°1 = 5bis?" ... not very logical mathematics of course, so we'll have to see if it works. Anyway, it has given me some more space and has already solved my problem of "shortage of mandolin cases" 
I think I can be happy with the result of the auction. It's always difficult to say exactly what a mandolin is worth, it all depends on "who wants it?".
I thought this 1905-N°1 and 1924-typeA would have ended up about the same price (I also put the same reserve price for both) but in the final results was a difference of about $1000 ... 
The 1905 went for more than I expected ... although it's completely original, you can't say the condition is really "excellent": a few separations in the back, a few small (repaired) cracks in the table, a bit of shrinkage of the scratchplate, .... Playability is not a problem, but it's had its use and it's still a 102 year old mandolin and therefore more fragile than a "younger" one. The 1924 type A was actually in "excellent" condition. Not a single separation in the back, perfect -hardly used- fingerboard. I have no idea why it ever got this new finish, there is no sign at all of any restauration whatsoever. 
As Martin said, maybe it's worth a bit less because of the new finish, but it would certainly be an ideal practice instrument for a player. (Or why not as a concert mandolin ... much less than that is being used today!) 
So I thought this one would go for a bit more, but the price of the 1905 made up for the difference 
The other 1906 type A went for the price I thought it would go for, just a little over my reserve price, which is correct I think. 
Well, it's been an interesting exercise!

Btw, Martin, I'd definitely prefer your type A to this 1924 ... it is completely original, from 1915 and in really excellent condition; the original curve on the table, #hardly been played, it still has the nice mechanics with wonderful brown buttons which were not used anymore for the later later study types ... "rarissimo"!

----------


## Embergher

> My bass-player(alias E.T.) fingers would probably not fit on such a delicate creature; they ~barely~ fit on my modern Calace, which is 26 mm. wide at the nut. Then I would be confronted with the equally torturous choices of either keeping a lovely instrument that I would NEVER actually _play_ --a waste and a misallocation of precious resources, as far as I am concerned--


I think there is still hope for you, Victor ...  
The later mandolins made by Pecoraro often have a wider fingerboard (25 - 26mm at the nut), and they're wonderful instruments too ... 
However, the neck is still V-shaped and might feel "tiny" compared to a Calace ...

Well, I'm not trying to be a bad influence, ... a modern Calace can of course be a perfectly playable and wonderful sounding instrument! 
(Although I once read in an article by a mandolin player "trained" by the modern German mandolin school, that one of the conditions to have a "playable" mandolin is that the fingerboard should be "at least 28mm wide at the nut"! ... my octave mandola is only 25mm and I think I could prove it's playable #

----------


## Jim Garber

Here's a good one for "heavy metal" music -- by Hutchins.

Jim

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Here's a good one for "heavy metal" music -- by Hutchins.


I really want a Merrill, but put in a low bid just for the heck of it.

----------


## Jim Garber

I have a feeling that the Merrills might sound better since they actually have a spruce soundboard.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

I tried my best for this Pettine Special. After seeing some detailed pics I figured it needed some moderate luthier work to get it playable. I think the neck is warped, with some warpoage on the sop near the soundhole, prob some fret work needed and some loose inlays and general cleanup. Even so I got outbid... oh well.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Well, SOMEone got a nice 2k bowlback for 600+repairs. Anyone we know?

----------


## Jim Garber

The high bidder, at least from the available sale info, has never bought a mandolin. I did email this person incase they just wanted a wall hanger -- but I assume that he'she knows what he/she is buying at that price.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

Man, I need to find time for my eBay addiction again.

----------


## Eugene

...Not to mention my Mandolincafe addiction.

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## trebleclef528

Now thisis what I call a bowlback of note! amazing... genuine? looks the part, but I wonder what the background info is. I've emailed the seller to try to find out more.
Ian

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## Jim Garber

Nice taterbug wallhanger, eh. Yeah, I found it at a garage sale for 25.  

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Also amazing, but for somewhat different reasons, is this de Meglio, which has fallen into the clutches of some fairly spectacular reptilian dentists. On first view I thought somebody had installed a pick-up, but I think it's just a vile scratchplate and vastly oversized tailpiece. Clearly, the butchers were proud enough of their work to add their own labels, too.

Martin

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## Neil Gladd

> Now this is what I call a bowlback of note!


Very much of note! But I don't have even a fraction of the starting bid.

----------


## RSW

Oh my, 8 days to come up with $12k.. #it would be inspiring to play such an instrument

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## etbarbaric

> Now this is what I call a bowlback of note!


Indeed! A lovely instrument. Ian, can you let us know what you find out? Apparently it is unlabeled, as the seller speaks only of attribution to the Vinaccia family. It is nicely proportioned in any case. It does look to be in largely original condition. 1760 seems a touch early to me.

A couple of observations:
- Check out the nut with sections that seem to have been 
intentionally removed between the courses.

- Note also the bridge... which also looks legit (or a good copy). 
Notice the very narrow (original?) placement of the string notches 
for the A and E strings on the bridge.

Eric

----------


## trebleclef528

Quote #
Now this is what I call a bowlback of note! 

Hi Eric..
I have had a reply from the seller of the "Vinaccia" as follows:
"Hello Ian, 
this mandolin was made in Naples in the 18th century, probably built by the Vinaccia family, one of the nost important as far as mandolins are concerned. 
I personally bought it from an italian gentleman who in turn had bought the mandolin from a well known and established french antiquarian, specialized in antique musical instruments. 
This mandolin has recently been restaured by a luthier who is one of the best connoisseur of the history of antique mandolins in the world."

I think the mando is without doubt genuine and my feeling from other pictures I have seen is that the date of 1760 is fairly accurate. I spoke to Alison Stephens today and she reckeons that 1760 is spot on. Looks to me like the nut is not the original and although the bridge certainly looks the part it could of course be a replica.

Ali mentioned that a similar mando was up for auction at a German Auction House for a price of £15,000........ so 9000 Euro's seems "cheap" for a peice of history like this.

Trouble is... I ain't got 9000 Euro!
Happy bidding,
Ian

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## Eugene

Was the German instrument authentically labeled? That could make such a difference (as could a "respected" auction house...i.e., not eBay). In any event, I wish I had an extra EU$9,000 laying about. Yummy. Regarding 1760, I'd be more likely to give this to the latter half of the 1760s or even the 1770s.

----------


## jk245

> Now thisis what I call a bowlback of note! amazing... genuine? looks the part, but I wonder what the background info is.


This one has beautiful tuners. Ivory (?) and wood. The current stinging is kinda funny. The price is nice.

----------


## etbarbaric

Thanks Ian,

Things are worth, ultimately, what someone will pay for them... yet to be seen in this case. Maybe 12 of us each pitch in $1K... and we each get it for a month out of the year... Yeah, that's it... send me your checks for $1K tomorrow, and I'll buy it and share... really I will... Hurry, only 11 slots remaining!!! :-)

Eric

----------


## etbarbaric

> This one has beautiful tuners. Ivory (?)


The tuning pegs are likely boxwood. Not to be confused with the array of little ivory (or sometimes bone) "pips" that surround the peghead. The latter are purely ornamental.

Eric

----------


## Ali

Hi all - just to clarify - "Spot on" meant spot on interms of a period.... i.e. I'll bet its from between 1760-1768/9....not quite literally 1760...... 1760 would be the bare earliest really and those buttons usually date from a smidge later....also the one in the German auction had a guide price of 15,000-17,000 EUROS not pounds.... and didn't seem to sell.... but think it was signed and dated..... I've manage to photocopy the page wonky and now can't read the date but think it was 1767..... but this one in the German auction was SO like my VINNY (1764)....me and my luthier have christened it Sister-of-Vinny....only the fingerboard inlay is different and the front of headstocl/buttons on side (mine has no buttons).... all the other inlay is IDENTICAL..... but this Italian Ebay one has some noticeable differences in inlay work, its also longer bodied than mine and has a very slightly different shaped sound hole.....
On the subject of Vinny..... I am having him fairly faithfully copied but an extremely good British Luthier called Martin Bowers..... once he's copied him once, he could do it again......anyone want a Vencenzo Vinaccia 1764 mandolin copy? I'm SO excited about mine.... due to be finished this summer.....he's been christened already.....Son-of-Vinny of course!
All the best
Excited mandolin wierdo #

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Eric, Ali and all,

I think you are refering to this particular Neapolitan mandolin (see attached photo). If not, well here is yet another excellent example of one of the very best Neapolitan makers of that period.

It was sold at an Austria auction not long ago with the following description:

_Vinaccia, Vincenzo (Neapel, 2. Hälfte 18. Jh.) #Eine sehr feine und seltene Neapolitanische Mandoline, mit Originalzettel, datiert 1769. Gebeizter Ahornkorpus, kanellierte Scheiben, Perlmutt- und Schildpatteinlagen, Beindekorationen, in Originalzustand. (MB) EURO 11.000 - 13.000 US$ 14.300 - 16.900 AS Museal!
_
Translation: Vinaccia, Vincenzo (Neapel, 2nd half 18 Century). A very delicate and rare Neapolitan mandolin, with original label, dated 1769. Stained maple bowl, channaled ribs, mother-of-pearl and tortoise shell intarsia, bone decorations, in original state. (MB) EURO 11.000 - 13.000 US$ 14.300 - 16.900 AS Museum quality! 

Both this one and the one for sale now at Ebay are indeed wonderful instruments.


Cheers and best to you all,

Alex

----------


## etbarbaric

Thanks for that Alex. #Another wonderful example indeed. #Alison, please do keep us in the loop on the copy of your "VINNY". #Faithful modern copies of these things are rare enough.

Best,

Eric

ps - For what its worth, buttons/pips do show up on earlier Neapolitan instruments as well. I've often imagined them as electrodes, or electric insulators... :-)

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Here's a good one for "heavy metal" music -- by Hutchins.
> 
> Jim


It went for $203.50. Probably a reasonable price.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Originally Posted by  (jgarber @ Mar. 28 2007, 23:08)
> 
> Here's a good one for "heavy metal" music -- by Hutchins.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> It went for $203.50. Probably a reasonable price.


Bought by my cyberfriend in Vienna, Christian Steinbrecher. I have been trying to get him to join our little group here. Perhaps some day.

Jim

----------


## Ali

Yup Alex - thats the one. Do you know what it went for? The list of final prices didn't show it. Beautiful isn't it? I prefer the inlay on Vinny though on the neck and headstock....biased I know!
Ali

----------


## trebleclef528

Ali... When son of Vinny is born will you post the photo's so we can all say "awe" he's..just like his dad"(in a Scottish accent of course.. hey! there's a good idea.. why don't you call him MacVinny?) ?
Sorry about the 1760 ... I knew you did'nt mean spot on as in spot on (3rd April 1760 at 2.00pm .. that would be spot on)... but you meant spot on as in "around about".... have I got it spot on?

Anyway.. i see that as yet there are still no bids on the "ebay one"
Cheers
Ian

----------


## Bob A

Given that the antiques in question are not only somewhat pricey, but also 250 years old, I wonder how instruments of that age and pedigree compare to more recent copies.
I'm also curious as to price differential. A Daniel Larson copy, with all the bells and whistles, would run around $5400, more or less. WHile it's kind of dumb to ask if the antique is twice the mandolin that a quality repro would be, what might the advantage be in owning the Real Thing? 

So, for those who know: how about a side-by-side comparison between old and new?

----------


## Jim Garber

> Given that the antiques in question are not only somewhat pricey, but also 250 years old, I wonder how instruments of that age and pedigree compare to more recent copies.
> I'm also curious as to price differential. A Daniel Larson copy, with all the bells and whistles, would run around $5400, more or less. WHile it's kind of dumb to ask if the antique is twice the mandolin that a quality repro would be, what might the advantage be in owning the Real Thing? 
> 
> So, for those who know: how about a side-by-side comparison between old and new?


Same question comes up in the other sections on the Cafe regarding Loars. Lots of good copies but are they worth 1/10 (or less) of the price of a Loar. There is intrinsic value of an object and then there is the market value and other factors that come into play.

Interesting also that Alex mentions Wolfgagn Frueh's copies:




> As for the copies of Neapolitan mandolins used by Jean-Paul and his band made by the Paris based luthier Wolfgang Früh, info can now be found at the latter's website. Click on this line to find the site.


This Vinaccia copy bears quite a resemblance to the mandolin in question.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

Somewhere, I've discussed this before. There seems a cut-off someplace in the early to mid 19th-c. Older, and originals tend to cost more than reproductions; newer, and reproductions tend to cost more than originals.

----------


## etbarbaric

> Given that the antiques in question are not only somewhat pricey, but also 250 years old, I wonder how instruments of that age and pedigree compare to more recent copies.


Hi Bob,

It probably goes without saying that the modern reproduction is likely to be less fragile and more likely to be generally playable. Beyond that it will be an individual matter of the luthier's skill as to how they compare. At the same time, my very limited experience having these instruments restored has been mostly positive, but also nerve-wracking and expensive. Perhaps Ali can relate how her copy ends up comparing to the original once its finished.

It can also be difficult to find modern luthiers who will copy an instrument faithfully without interjecting some of their own "expertise" or "creativity" along the way. Sometimes this is OK, sometimes not. Some amount of variation is also inevitable even in the most careful hands... such is the art and beauty of a hand-made instrument. Sometimes modern luthiers have a hard time believing the evidence before them... less and less so thankfully. 

In other ways copies and originals are apples and oranges. I am interested in the original instruments because of what can be learned from them. This can be in the form of original bits and pieces or as subtle as playing wear on the top. The arc of a few scratches can speak volumes about how a instrument was held and played. Even within 18th century Neapolitan mandolins there is also an incredible range of shapes, sizes, ornament, etc. 

I currently have a relatively late 18th century Neapolitan instrument in restoration... At last report, the 213 year old "clench" nail in the neck was still stubbornly doing its job (and resisting a necessary neck reset). Needless to say, these kinds of repairs require extreme patience and long experience on the part of a luthier, and a healthy (and often dynamic) budget. Its hard to know what you're getting into until you're into it. Not for the faint of heart.

Of course uninformed restoration brings huge risks as well... and most of the surviving pieces of this vintage need rather complete rework... thus the high price tag for one in (presumably) operable condition. Of course "operable" can also be a subjective term... caveat emptor.

The unfortunate bit about the price tags of originals is that they tend to end up in collections, rather in the hands of players.

Sorry for the ramble...

Eric

----------


## Bob A

No apologies for information given, please. All is welcome, and I (unlike the more scholarly folk) value anecdotal information.

Apples and oranges, of course, and fragility is a given. While it's impossible to know how a "new" 1760 instrument would stack up against a recent copy, would anyone care to venture an opinion whether the sound of a 250 year old mandolin can be said to be improved over a fresh instrument? In the fiddle world, of course, this horse is regularly flogged, with the usual continuum of opinion. Given the different nature of the mandolin, I'd suspect that great age does not directly translate into improved tonal characteristics, but I'm willing to be found wrong.

----------


## brunello97

Well, Bob, with apologies to Seabisquit, I'd be interested in learning what the consensus, or individual, take is on trajectories of age and tone with high quality woods and mandolins. 

I've heard a version from a violinist friend who owns an instrument from roughly this period (1760, I think) and not too recently from Pavarotti viz his voice (not in person, my you.) 

This thread is onto a nice diversion with this ebay auction and interesting information is bubbling up.

Mick

PS After about another year, maybe or another 100 pages of posts, Scott and Jim should get together and publish this thread verbatim as a book "Bowlbacks of Note". Would make for great reading.

----------


## Ali

Hi,
Obviously, I don't have my copy yet but we have taken great care in choosing the wood which is arguably one of the main parts of a tonal equation. The sound board is actually a recycled one from an old instrument #(which couldn't be rescued) so it will be well aged and "activated". In my wildest dreams I don't expect Son-of-Vinny to have anywhere near the tonal qualities of Vinny. Vinny is extraordinary.... but I think some of his tone is a direct result of his fragility...... I once played a 1934 (I think) Embergher 5b with terrible strings on in an auction viewing gallery with two HUGE cracks on sound board and I've never heard anything like it. incredible depth of tone.... but I strongly suspect that mend it....and the tone will change....so the fact that Vinny is cranky, fragile, reacts incredibly badly to temperature change and humidity levels all contribute to his tone. He also weighs in the region of under 12oz.... even with Martin skills I'll be amazed if he can keep the weight down to anywhere near that..... 
I could go on for ever.....
Also, as a player, I absolutely believe an instrument needs to be "activated" to start realising its potential. Even very old instruments, if they've not been played for ages, don't have anywhere the tone they will develop if you then let a good player batter them for a couple of years.
I'll stop now.
ALI

----------


## etbarbaric

Its great to hear that Ali. #Its very interesting that you're using old tone-wood. I too think that weight is a great parameter to target (or at last be aware of). These old instruments are *very* light. Your auction description jives well with my experience (spot on eh? :-)). #I have often stroked old, broken, out-of-tune instruments with rusted and missing strings and gone "wow!" #

I have to admit to being a fan of old instruments, prejudiced perhaps. #I very much liked Richard's use of words... such instruments do provide inspiration. I am also a violinist by background, and I play a couple of old fiddles that I dearly love... #There are, of course, too many factors that could contribute to that love.. old (better?) woods, play-in by many hands, passage of time, luthier skill/technique, my own inspiration, etc. #I also have played some very fine modern instruments.

I've related my experiences in these pages with a restored 1801 Cremonese mandolin. #IMHO it is very successful, even though its top had to be put back together from something like 7 pieces (some as small as toothpicks). #Of course, it is the only Cremonese mandolin I've played... so comparison is more difficult. #The conventional wisdom is that old violins are great, but old plucked instruments are tired, played out, fragile, museum pieces, etc. #Some of this is true, but clearly YMMV. #Most old violins are pretty heavily altered, as well, which has to be factored in (longer necks, higher tensions, beefier bass bars, modern strings/pitch, etc.)

The issue of weight/fragility is paramount, and I believe, intentional to some degree. #While restoring my Cremonese, I talked with my luthier about making drawings so it could be copied (perhaps by someone else). #His curmudeonly response was that he could draw the tollerances, but that nobody would believe them. #Even if someone wanted to build a top at around a 1mm in thickness (or less), they would be hard-pressed to find spruce to handle the job in the modern world. Successful replication depends on the luthier being willing to really push the limits of what the modern mind thinks is possible. #My luthier has used the phrase "on the hairy edge of physics" a couple of times. #I remember Dan Larson telling me once that he discarded a huge number of tops before finding what he liked for his copies of the Cutler-Challen Strad mandolino (like 12 or 24... can't remember).

So.. long story too long, Bob, I guess I agree in that I wouldn't necessarily say that age alone would be a good thing for tone, but that there are many, many variables. #These old guys were working in the midst of the art form, and we should expect good results from their instruments. #Modern luthiers can study, analyze, and even replicate the physical results, but they may never have a full picture of the thought and technique that went into these instruments. 

Enough out of me... 

Eric

ps - As an appropriate disclaimer, I also restore old mud houses for fun, so I am fairly used to seeing value in things that others would not, and also used to people thinking that I've lost my mind... :-)

pps - Of course, an old instrument like the Vinaccia in the EBay auction truly needs historic strings (brass, twisted brass, gut), low tension, quill plectrum, careful technique, and probably a different pitch standard. #Slap on some modern strings and crank it to A=440 and it will be kindling in short order. It is a very different machine than even a 19th century instrument.

----------


## Bob A

YES! This is indeed what I was looking for.

I'm especially impressed with the conclusions drawn regarding weight; while many fine mandolins are constructed woth a certain heft (Calace and Pecoraro come to mind), generally the ones I like best are the ones that you pick up and are surprised by the feather-light quality.

The lightest mandolin I've ever held was Neil Gladd's Tumiati; seemed like it was made of balsa wood. (BTW, Strings Magazine had an article last year about innovative luthiers. One fellow had made a balsa cello, which received some acclaim from players).

----------


## brunello97

Wait a minute:

"....restore old mud houses for fun."  Can you elaborate? And here I was thinking I'm speaking into the void viz 'an architecture of girth'. etbarbaric, please either pm me, or we hijack the thread to further extremes. Building from earth is my turf, in a word.

Mick

----------


## etbarbaric

Hey Mick,

I'll PM you... as I've hijacked this thread enough!

Eric

----------


## Fliss

I've been on that auction site again... here's my new addition!

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

> I've been on that auction site again... here's my new addition!


Fliss...

What is it?

Jim

----------


## Fliss

Calace, 1974. Sorry, I shouldn't tease, posting the picture without saying! # 

Fliss

PS I've had it a couple of days now and am still making up my mind about it. The action is really high at the moment so I won't really know whether I'm going to like the playability until I get that sorted out, but I really like it other than that. #

----------


## Eugene

Sounds like a fine reason for a set up. Congrats, Fliss...I think.

----------


## Jim Garber

A simply-adorned American Conservatory mandola.

I have one of these and they are nice playing instruments.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Max McCullough is selling this nice Lyon & Healy Style A on ebay. I know... not a bowlback but of definite interest to many of us of the classical persuasion.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Well, if you could only have one mandolin, and didn't play bluegrass, the L&H would be an excellent choice, I suppose. 

Anyone here have just one mandolin?

----------


## jasona

Define "here". I have only one, but do not play classical primarily (nor bluegrass, for that matter). I just come for the free pastries.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Define "here". I have only one, but do not play classical primarily (nor bluegrass, for that matter). I just come for the free pastries.


Here is in our little corner of the Cafe, you know, behind the cappucino machine.  

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

This Embergher liuto, owned by a Russian guitar player, is pictured in Ralf and Barry's book. This guy must have bee quite surprised to find out that he has a very rare instrument.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim and others interested,

Indeed Valery Afanassiev from Sint-Petersburg (that's the name of the lucky owner) was very surprised when I told him what kind of an Embergher instrument he owned. When I found it on the internet (way back) he had named it being a 'guitar-lute'. 
In the e-mails we shared from then, he explained that it was found in somekind of a 2nd hand 'antique' shop, and that he had it 'repaired' and since then played it as a guitar (as he still does). 

Of course, after he understood what _exactly_ he had bought, he felt very fortunate and corrected the wrong name on the internet into *Liuto cantabile*. That is how it became known. 
Valery is a nice guy and provided me with all the details, photos and measurements I asked for. In fact the measurements on the photo shown here, he made for me. Knowing how much he likes (t)his Liuto cantabile, I don't think he will ever part from it. But for me that is OK; it's in good hands.

For those who like to see the width and depht of the bowl of this interesting _early_ Liuto cantabile, an (I think up to now) unknown photo is shown at the History page of my Embergher website (click here).


Best, 

Alex

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## Eugene

Afanassiev's liuto cantbile has gotten a lot of chat here in the distant past.

----------


## Jim Garber

Someone else on the Cafe discovered the liuto site and made mention of it recently. I had not seen it for a few years before he had the measurements listed.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Nice looking Vinaccia.

Jim

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## Bob A

Not what you'd call a bowlback, nor yet a boatback, <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLINO-PARTICOLARE-LIUTAIO-ALFREDO-MONTANARI-1919-88_W0QQitemZ110114922745QQihZ001QQcat
egoryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">it's an odd duck, not without a certain charm.</a>

----------


## Jim Garber

> Not what you'd call a bowlback, nor yet a boatback, <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLINO-PARTICOLARE-LIUTAIO-ALFREDO-MONTANARI-1919-88_W0QQitemZ110114922745QQihZ001QQcat
> 
> 
> egoryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">it's an odd duck, not without a certain charm.</a>


Ugly duckling, I would say. Bologna does have its share of luthiers who stray from the norm, notably Mozzani. Never heard of Montanari tho.

I will ask my Bolognese violin-making friend if he has any clues.

Tis one falls into that boatback style, sort of. I have seen a few Mozzani's made like that, Toni Nigrelli's for one -- a sweet instrument -- but I think Mozzani's designs have more grace.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Well... there IS a book of etudes for double bass by a gent named Montanari; once you get through them, your bass may very well _look like_ the mandolin in question. But I trust that the synonymity is purely accidental.  

Or perhaps the luthier referenced forgot to imprint the "Do NOT Microwave" warning at the bottom of the would-have-been bowl.

Weird...

----------


## Jim Garber

> Not what you'd call a bowlback, nor yet a boatback, <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLINO-PARTICOLARE-LIUTAIO-ALFREDO-MONTANARI-1919-88_W0QQitemZ110114922745QQihZ001QQcat
> 
> egoryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">it's an odd duck, not without a certain charm.</a>


Uh-oh, Bob... are you considering this?

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Feel free to leap at it, Jim. I'd snap it up at 350 US, but I'm not flush with cash, and I can't walk thru the house without stepping on a mandolin any more. But it Does sort of speak to me. I think it's the aerodynamics of the thing.

Of course, I have five days left to regret my better judgement.

----------


## Jim Garber

Nah... I have enough odd ducks at the moment and it is overseas (to me) which presents more problems then it is worth. Besides you do need such a thing, don't you?

Jim

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hello,

A week ago, i had the chance to try a Dekavala mandolin. I made a search with the search engine of the Message Board and found out that the name of this greek builder was mentioned ocassionally among the names of other greek mandolin builders and no special reference has been made to his instruments. So here are few words. 

First impression is that the building of mandolins is for the craftsman a secondary activity. Primary beeing the manufacturing of bouzukis, baglamas, etc. traditional instruments. This results in just one model (walnut, 30 ribs) with some imperfections in the finishing. Another evidence for the secondary importance of the mandolin as a product for sale was the bluegrass set of strings put on the mandolin. Despite the above said the mandolin sounded very nice to me and i enjoyed playing it for about twenty minutes. Easy playing, loud sound. The price is EUR 500.

C. Dekavala is a well respected craftsman for his bouzukis and baglamas. I would say his mandolins are also of very good quality and if there was a greater demand, he would probably pay a closer attention to some details as regards the mandolins.

Best,
Plamen

----------


## vkioulaphides

So you were in Thessaloniki, Plamen? Nice town... I spent some of my early years there.

While I have never handled any of Dekavalas' mandolins, your account sounds perfectly fair and accurate. I, too, wish that Greek luthiers would receive more orders for mandolins. But, of course, I've done _my_ share...  

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

Jim, I'm weakening. I've emailed the fellow in Italia. Darn thing is too cute. But Ima not chase it too far. 

Nice to see more Hellenic instruments. I continue to enjoy my walnut Kevorkian. Durable construction allows me to pick with the grandson without fear or guilt.

----------


## Jim Garber

Hey, Bob here is one of the larger photos I got from the guy. Make sure you wear protective eyewear -- watch out for those points.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Puglisi is a pretty common brand on Ebay Germany, but I thought it might be worth pointing this one out, as it is still very cheap with little more than two hours to go. #I'm not a fan of butterfly scratchplates, but I know some are.

And another Puglisi, much grander and clearly following the Calace design of the period. Again, I'm not a fan of D-shaped soundholes, but others may be.

Martin

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Thank you, Martin, for pointing those Puglisi mandolins out! While the first one is pretty typical, i have to admit that i see a Calace-like Puglisi for the first time! Very interesting!

Good luck!
Plamen

----------


## brunello97

> And another Puglisi, much grander and clearly following the Calace design of the period. Again, I'm not a fan of D-shaped soundholes, but others may be.
> 
> Martin


Thanks for the tip, Martin. I'll go out on the limb and admit to actually liking the looks of this one. But I'm an admitted fan of the jugendstilischness. I'm going to float a few bids from my still not very deep pockets and see how far I might go in the auction. (Not very I suppose.)

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

That Puglisi scratchplate looks remarkably oversized esp since it extends to the edge of the instrument. Makes it look even stranger than normal.  

Jim

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## brunello97

Yes, Jim, but it is super-schöne!

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is a fairly plain Salsedo on Ebay UK. The BIN is a bit optimistic even for one in top condition, and this one is more than a little dubious structurally: have a look at the action on the side-on view. This neck joint is busted!

Speaking of dubious items, what do others think of this supposed Ferrari. The bowl has fluted ribs and looks very nice, but this top surely has nothing to do with it. This looks to have been retopped by some amateur in the past; in some wildly inappropriate wood. Now, it's just folk art.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

> Here is a fairly plain Salsedo on Ebay UK. The BIN is a bit optimistic even for one in top condition, and this one is more than a little dubious structurally: have a look at the action on the side-on view. This neck joint is busted!


Martin,
No worries. I'm sure if you asked the seller you'd find out that a'professional' assured him that some players like their action "a little bit higher."
Mick

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## Jim Garber

You think that that Salsedo is overvalued, take a look at this _übervalued_ Liebich mandolin. Plus overinflated shipping for this one.

At least the fretboard still has action. 

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Ouch! I think he'll be lucky to get $73.51 for it.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I'm going to float a few bids from my still not very deep pockets and see how far I might go in the auction. (Not very I suppose.)


Good luck with it, Mick. If you don't get this one, you might always consider this Herwiga, also channeling the Calace vibes. A bit clumsier in execution, but with lots of nicely fluted ribs.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> Ouch! I think he'll be lucky to get $73.51 for it.
> 
> Martin


Well, I heard from the seller and he/she said:




> This mandolin was appraised by a musical instrument dealer.We know what he will give us for it and it was suggested that we place on ebay to see what the market might bear first. The opening bid is generious at best based on what we know.obviuously there is something about this piece that makes it rare and valuable.Quite frankly we were shocked by the valuation this almost went to GoodWill.


I checked in my trusty Henley and found Ernst Liebich listed there as a violinmaker (his father was also a maker) who also made violas, cellos guitars and lutes. This is, no doubt, the same maker. This puts it in different perspective but still nowhere near the valuation that these folks posted.

I am awaiting better photos and perhaps this might be a nice decently made old mandolin. Then again, maybe this store owner offered them half of what they posted.

Jim

----------


## brunello97

> Originally Posted by  (brunello97 @ April 19 2007, 01:15)
> 
> I'm going to float a few bids from my still not very deep pockets and see how far I might go in the auction. (Not very I suppose.)
> 
> 
> Good luck with it, Mick. If you don't get this one, you might always consider this Herwiga, also channeling the Calace vibes. A bit clumsier in execution, but with lots of nicely fluted ribs.
> 
> Martin


Thanks, Martin, I'll keep an eye on this one as well. It is finally spring in up north and things floral are catching my eye. Certainly a rash of interesting instruments passing through the channels these days. 

Mick

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## brunello97

Not to spin off topic on the Liebich, but the Breslau tag ought to elicit at least a smattering of interest from the historically minded. A beautiful city with a tragic history.

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

> I checked in my trusty Henley and found Ernst Liebich listed there as a violinmaker (his father was also a maker) who also made violas, cellos guitars and lutes. This is, no doubt, the same maker.


But of course he may only have sold it, not made it. That label is at the back of the headstock, and it says "Ernst Liebich - violin maker". Strange wording to put on a label on a mandolin you've built. He wouldn't be the only luthier who also sells generic cheaper instruments through his shop. This mandolin looks bog-standard Markneukirchen mass production.

I do wonder whether this appraiser has really made the seller an offer in the thousands, as he implies. It's one thing to put an exaggerated valuation on an instrument for an appraiser who really knows violins better than mandolins; it's quite a different matter to put one's own money on the line and make a subtantial offer.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Martin,

What characteristics suggest Markneukirchen to you? #I am quite unfamiliar with German mandolins (bowlbacks for sure). Slotted headstocks and perhaps the scratch guards seem identifiable, but if you have five minutes to explain the characteristics to the uniniatated, I would learn a lot.

thanks,

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Martin:
 You hit the nail on the proverbial head. This is from a disk of German catalogs I bought from Christian Steinbrecher of Vienna. This is a Johannes Adler (Markneukirchen) catalog.

The center one #2137 resembles the Liebich. 

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a close-up of #2137.

Jim

----------


## trebleclef528

Quote:Martinjonas 23rd April 2007

"But of course he may only have sold it, not made it. #That label is at the back of the headstock, and it says "Ernst Liebich - violin maker". #Strange wording to put on a label on a mandolin you've built. #He wouldn't be the only luthier who also sells generic cheaper instruments through his shop. #This mandolin looks bog-standard Markneukirchen mass production."

i would say you were spot on Martin with Markneukirchen or at least certainly one of the saxony towns or villages (but i would also say Markneukirchen. the mandolin bears all the characteristics of those whih were mass produced in the 1920's and 30's in the Saxony area.

Many of the builders from the Saxony region came from families with a long history of instrument building (and there were hundreds of them in the region). Most of them around that time (20's 30's)were not only involved in making mandolins but many other String intruments.For example the company called Hess (Klingenthal)made just about every musical instument you could think of, from mandolins, drums, violins, trumpets and loads and loads more.

many of the mandolins from this period were pretty cheap instruments (and as you said mass produced), but some were also good quality. It is not until around the mid 50's that we begin to see a change in the design.. slowly moving away from the italian style to larger instruments with deeper bodies.... now some of the really good mandolin builders begin to emerge.......producing much better quality mandolins and as you know the gradual changes have led to what we call the German mandolin (the likes of what Knorr now produces) with a much "rounder face" and body than the italian "tear drop" shape.

If any of the "cafe goers" ever happen to be in saxony it is well worth a visit to the musical instrument museum in Marknuekirchen. a must for mandolin players.

Anyway.. with regard to the mandolin on ebay that started the discussion.... i would'nt even take it for the price of the postage!(hmm maybe a bit harsh.... enough said.

Best wishes
ian

----------


## brunello97

Jim,

Kind of a nice appreciation from 16RM to $7000 US. The dollar is weak, yes.

Somehow the adword "billigste" doesn't quite fit into the seller's narrative here. 

Mick

----------


## Bob A

While it doesn't belong here, I can't justify opening a thread for <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/SPARTITO-MUSICA-DUCE-canto-MUSSOLINI-FASCISMO-MANDOLINO_W0QQitemZ190104049086QQihZ009QQcat
egoryZ42459QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this.</a>

It's more than just annoying to see il Duce with reference to mandolin, given how he more or less destroyed the street mandolin culture of Napoli. On the bright side, one is reminded that he, too, has passed.

----------


## Jim Garber

> While it doesn't belong here, I can't justify opening a thread for <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/SPARTITO-MUSICA-DUCE-canto-MUSSOLINI-FASCISMO-MANDOLINO_W0QQitemZ190104049086QQihZ009QQcat
> 
> egoryZ42459QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this.</a>


Well, Bob, he is at least wearing a bowl on his head...

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

Vinaccia on Ebay UK. Looks good, although a photo of the label would be useful. Two Italian bidders already on the case, the first one I suspect tried to sniff out the reserve.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "On the bright side, one is reminded that he, too, has passed."


Indeed, B.M. has passed-- much to the world's intestinal (and otherwise) relief.  

The mandolin, on the contrary, lives on.

----------


## brunello97

> ... to see il Duce with reference to mandolin, given how he more or less destroyed the street mandolin culture of Napoli...


Bob,
I've had a weird interest in Il Duce ever since I saw Sophia Loren and Marcello Mastroianni in "A Special Day". More so after regular haircuts in his proto-Rossi-an architecture in Imperia. Is it too much of a thread diversion to ask the background on his Neapolitan mando-supression? Any references or resources would be appreciated.
thanks,
Mick

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Is it too much of a thread diversion to ask the background on his Neapolitan mando-supression?


Apparently it was just the opposite, so it was as a backlash against him that the Italian public lost interest in the mandolin. If he had banned them, they might be much more popular today.

P.S. - I'm very tempted to bid on that sheet music, myself.

----------


## Bob A

Paul Sparks, in "The Classical Mandolin" (Oxford U Press 1995, p 143-4), states that the Fascist govt that ruled in Italy betw 1922 and 1943 fervently believed in modernising the country, imposing an authoritarian work ethic that had serious consequences for popular musical life. In Rome and Naples, streets were cleared of casual performers in the drive against begging and outdoor crime, thus endinga long tradition of outdoor music-making.

He quotes an English traveler lamenting the change. H L Mencken, in one of the volumes of his autobiography, also mentions a trip to Italy and the negative consequences of the Fascist reign.

Neil, you NEED that music. Go for it. It belongs in the archive.

Mick, you ought to read Captain Corelli's Mandolin. My dad read it last summer, and the descriptions of fascism in Italy took him right back to his memories of the 30s and the war years. (He was in Napoli in WWII).

----------


## Neil Gladd

I'm pretty sure I remember Ugo Orlandi telling me that Mussolini had a mandolin composer ancestor, and when learned that he started forcing mandolin music on people (though not in the streets). After that, the mandolin was tied to Mussolini in the mind of the public. I don't have any written sources for this, though.

----------


## brunello97

Bob and Neil,

Thanks for the background information. I'd like to find out more about this and whether the association between the instrument and Mussolini continued at all post war. I have read Captain Corelli and appreciated the more mando-centric plotline it had in comparison to the movie. (The ending was just as maddening, however.) I read Bosworth's 'Mussolini's Italy' this winter and while informative was somewhat broad-brushed when it came to cultural issues. I don't think the mandolin ever came up. I guess I should go to the source to get more anecdotal points of view. My friends in Firenze find my interest either kitsch-y or nostalgic. The fisarmonica gets their far greater respect. (!) I'm sure Carlo Aonzo would have some background information to share at some time. So despite the Orly (?) fashion ad campaign tie-in (and Nicholas Cage, I suppose,) I guess this remains an uphill battle. Perhaps just as well.

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

there's also an element of northern reserve to be taken into accout - north of rome, that is - in which people performing in the street are looked on as being eccentric ... or worse. the tarantella, for example is loathed as being foreign to tuscany ... from the (shudder) south.

the fascist angle is very interesting. bearing in mind, my terms of reference are confined to the village i live in and the locals are reticent about talking about the war - i'll see what i can find out.

i see that alison stephens (http://www.alisonstephens.com/) is currently performing a "capt. corelli" program in the u.k. - perhaps she might be able to shed some light on whether the mandolin ever wore a black shirt.

- bill

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi all,

Neil, yes, I have heard similar stories. To the extent that B.M. had set up mandolin schools, and that the mandolin then suffered by the association after the fact (as if it didn't have troubles enough!)

The ancesstor in question was likely Cesare Mussolini. Tyler and Sparks put him circa 1790 ("The Early Mandolin", pp. 156). The British Library presumably has his "Six New Songs and Six Minuets... adapted for ye guittar & Mandolin".

Eric

----------


## vkioulaphides

In this, my last digressionary contribution, I must wonder whether said acronymously scatological dictator did not harm the mandolin BOTH ways, i.e. by banning street-musicians in Naples AND trying to "institutionalize" the mandolin in public education. Poor mandolin...  

Curious --and infuriating!-- how dictators get their paws on musical culture. Chronologically parallel to B.M., pre-WWII Greek dictator Ioannes Metaxas had bouzouki-players beaten and thrown into jail, bouzoukis shattered by police (or, more often than not, right-wing paramilitaries), the "dens of sin" where bouzoukis were played shuttered, all in the spirit of "cleansing society". A dubious goal to begin with, and carried out by yet more dubious means. 

Fortunately, no one of course _blamed_ the bouzouki, post-WWII, for the persecution it had suffered under Metaxas' heavy hand. To his minimal credit, he had not tried to introduce its teaching to Greek conservatories. But that, again, was only because he was a boorish oaf, who cared nothing for the arts altogether.  

A dismal total...

But "that was then, this is now". Back to our regular programming. Any notables, lately?

----------


## billkilpatrick

after a quick spin round the piazza ...

consensus is that lack of interest in mandolins is due more to a north/south divide than a political association - south favoring it as an instrument for "musica popolare" as opposed to the accordian in the north.

of course the "i-pod" has blown all instruments off the map. in comparison to 100 years ago, we - like every other country, i imagine - have become listeners, not participants.

----------


## Bob A

Accordion v Mandolin. Hard to evaluate this one. Can the opinion of those who prefer the Stomach Steinway be taken seriously? Are we, or the Italian people, in serious trouble if they are making popular music with such a device?

Before crowds of enraged accordionists assemble with trembling bellows and bellows of rage, I include the disclaimer: I am in a position to diss, having studied the instrument for several years myself. Under protest, I hasten to add.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "in comparison to 100 years ago, we - like every other country, i imagine - have become listeners, not participants."


True. Yet, this is changing: in the context of our post-modern, post-industrial, post-materialist current state of affairs, I see the mandolin as the PERFECT ingredient of a happy life! # 

Now, if you care for me to _tranlsate_ what I just said... don't dare me! # 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Not exactly a mandolin but a painting of an interesting one. Too bad we can't see the back.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a detail. Any one care to guess what music she has on her stand? Looks like one of the hits of the day.

Jim

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## billkilpatrick

i'd guess that's a birds quill she's using for a pick. 

is that an anchor hanging around her neck?

her left hand is enormous!

----------


## Neil Gladd

> her left hand is enormous!


Her left hand? What about her hair!!!

----------


## brunello97

> Accordion v Mandolin......
> Before crowds of enraged accordionists assemble with trembling bellows and bellows of rage, I include the disclaimer: I am in a position to diss, having studied the instrument for several years myself. Under protest, I hasten to add.


Ah, Bob, why must it be an 'either-or'? I've been wheezing on the squeeze box as a happy (for me, if not my neighbors) bit of cross-training so to speak. 

Why can't we all just get along.....

Here's a web radio station that gives it a try, Musica Italiana

http://www.live365.com/stations/vineviz

At least for a while longer.

Mick

----------


## JeffD

The most impressive thing about her is that she is playing without planting!

----------


## JeffD

The woman is playing an instrument similar enough to this one, pictured in the Mandolins in Visual Art thread.

----------


## JeffD

Or maybe Henry meant to post it here in the first place.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Vinaccia on Ebay UK. Looks good, although a photo of the label would be useful. Two Italian bidders already on the case, the first one I suspect tried to sniff out the reserve.


An hour to go, £312. That would be quite some catch (asuming structural integrity). Maybe there are some snipers lined up.

Martin

----------


## billkilpatrick

> Originally Posted by  (billkilpatrick @ April 29 2007, 18:14)
> 
> her left hand is enormous!
> 
> 
> Her left hand? What about her hair!!!


what about her hair? i see nothing unusual in her hair ... you honky hairist!

----------


## Henry Girvan

Hello,

I posted the photo of the Vinaccia Mandolin to the "Mandolins in Visual Art" thread because a painting on that thread had a mandolin misattributed as a Theorbo (a type of Bass-Lute)and I wanted to show a photo of the actual instrument.

If you would like to see the back of the instrument.

----------


## Henry Girvan

When I was at the last "Mandolin Syposium" in Trossingen I took this photo of a group of mandolins.

----------


## Jim Garber

> When I was at the last "Mandolin Syposium" in Trossingen I took this photo of a group of mandolins.


Henry:
Are any of those originals? If they are copies, who made them?

Jim

----------


## Henry Girvan

Hello Jim,

In terms of the three sitting on the chairs, the one in the middle is original repaired by Alfred Woll and I think I am right in saying that he made the other two.

----------


## Jim Garber

It must be this one from 1760:


Jim

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## JeffD

Just beautiful.

----------


## Jim Garber

Daniel Larson is another contemporary maker of these Baroque style mandolins.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

I think the one that Jim posted might be the one on the right in Henry's photo (or possibly its corresponding original) -- the other two are subtly different in decoration.

BTW, that Ebay Vinaccia went for £560 to Italy. Pretty low price, unless there are structural issues with it. It's a plainish model, but not quite entry level.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

I don't know if I've ever seen a Washburn 12 string, but I know I've never seen one with tuners arranged like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....ddle:us

I'm going to request some detail photos from the seller. Perhaps someone can shed some light. 

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

How utterly bizarre. Any chance that the central row of tuners was retrofitted?

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

This one looks rather nice. #Never heard of Fratelli Haesermann in Naples, but it has fluted ribs and a nicely-engraved tuner plate and looks pretty neatly made. #Some of the Calaces of the period look similar, and it's more pleasant than the D-hole ones. #Gold-metallic lining paper and an off-beat variant on the Vinaccia headstock cutout.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> How utterly bizarre. Any chance that the central row of tuners was retrofitted?
> 
> Martin


Highly likely that it was retrofitted. Strange. L&H did make 12 strings but not under the Washburn brand AFAIK.

Jim

----------


## tbilleci

FA: Gabriele Panidini liuto cantabile

Ebay no. 290114451729

Good luck!

----------


## Jim Garber

Welcome, Todd, to our little corner of the Cafe. I am sorry you couldn't make it to the Aonzo workshop.

Is this your Pandini liuto?

In any case, here is the direct link.

Jim

----------


## trebleclef528

I've never heard of Hasermann either but I did find a site where there is a Hasermann underrestoration
Ian

----------


## vkioulaphides

Considering the... *ekhm*... _language barrier_, I would assume this is a *K*asermann, perhaps?

----------


## Martin Jonas

Although there was indeed a reasonably well-known maker called Kasermann, both the Japanese site linked by Ian and the Ebay auction linked by me in the post he's responded to have good photos of the labels of these mandolins, and they clearly say "Fratelli Häsermann, Napoli" (unambiguously with H, and complete with umlaut, so clearly a transposed German name, not unlike Embergher).

By coincidence, here is another current Ebay auction for a Fratelli Häsermann. This one looks identical to my (rather undistinguished) Fratelli Ferrari.

By comparison, here is a recent Ebay auction for a Giovanni Kasermann (unequivocally with K, and spelled without umlaut on the brand mark and with umlaut on the label). Intriguingly, the address is the same: Via Carbonara, 112. So, looks like Häsermann changed his name to Käsermann (or Kasermann), possibly because the Italians can't pronounce an aspirated H. 

The Kasermann went for quite a lot of money, by the way, even though it's fairly plain. This may mean that the two instruments with the older Häsermann spelling could be a very good deal -- the very fancy fluted one on Ebay Germany is still very much cheaper than the plain Kasermann and could be a real steal. Although not quite as much a steal as the lowball bid I've just tried and which pushed the highest bid from 121 Euro to 164 Euro.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

Trouble is, Martin, I don't 'ave any money for any of these beauties, so I can't as easily kave in to temptation.

----------


## Martin Jonas

For anybody in Europe keen to try a Lyon & Healy bowlback, here is a bottom-of-the-range American Conservatory which looks in decent condition and is at a ludicrous 20 Pounds with under three hours to go.

Given the extreme rarity of US bowlbacks on this side of the Atlantic, this may well be worth checking out.

Another rarity here: a very old f-hole flatback with a bowlback-like body outline.

Here is an Angara & d'Isanto. Soundboard is a bit dirty, and is coming loose from the bowl, so this may need some attention.

Finally, 

here is a plain but apparently good condition maple-bowl Salsedo. Starting bid might be a bit optimistic, though.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Martin. 

I'd be interested in hearing other's views on how some of these budget L+Hs perform viz the many Italian models of similar range: I'm guessing Stridente, Lanfranco, etc. etc. and the many many dealers out of Napoli. #The one you posted looks to be in fairly good condition and certainly not from the bottom of the L+H barrel-maybe similar to the Washburn 125-which is a decent mandolin. The winner got it for 28L, a good price.

Which brings up another question: #I'd be interested in bidding on the Angara, but for 160$ shipping, I guess I should consider stopping in London on my way back from holiday and save on shipping costs. #I've sent mandolins to the UK, France and Switzerland and it never cost above $30 US. Even with the weak dollar something seems amiss. No wonder the manchego I crave is so expensive! (Yet I can get a nice Sicilian wine to go with it for $3.99.)

Mick

----------


## Fliss

> here is a plain but apparently good condition maple-bowl Salsedo. #Starting bid might be a bit optimistic, though.


That's the same one that was on recently with a Buy-It-Now of £525 and no takers!

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

> This may mean that the two instruments with the older Häsermann spelling could be a very good deal -- the very fancy fluted one on Ebay Germany is still very much cheaper than the plain Kasermann and could be a real steal. Although not quite as much a steal as the lowball bid I've just tried and which pushed the highest bid from 121 Euro to 164 Euro.


Hmmmm... this Häsermann went for quite a bit: 2810. It looks like it is in good shape thos the seller says there are a few cracks. Still this would be similar to what a good Calace would go for. I think Kasermanns are pretty well-respected.

Is there some trend of respected Italian mandolin makers with germanic surnames?

Jim

----------


## brunello97

[QUOTE= (jgarber @ May 10 2007, 12:58)]


> Hmmmm... this Häsermann went for quite a bit: 2810. It looks like it is in good shape thos the seller says there are a few cracks. Still this would be similar to what a good Calace would go for. I think Kasermanns are pretty well-respected.


Yes, Martin's bid seems to have blown the whole auction wide open.

Mick

----------


## Bob A

The Salsedo in question seems from the photos to be quite similar to the one I bought from an Italian dealer a few years ago. Mine is an odd instrument, with some features that lead me to believe it was at least partially the work of a relatively unskilled hand (such things as the improper placement of the last fret, and the shaping of the peghead in such a way as to cause the uppermost strings to rub against lower tuning posts) with attributes such as the elegantly shaped bowl, with fairly fancy wood, and of course the overall lightness and The Sound. Mine ran near $900 with shipping etc, and for all its faults is one of my favorites. Still, a lot of money for what it is.

By way of comnparison, I obtained another Salsedo from ebay UK a while later for half what I paid for the first one. The second is a bit fancier, has a rosewood bowl, and, sadly, had the top slathered with varnish by a fool with a paintbrush. Still, a decent instrument which will be improved once I find someone to de-finish the top. Both were dated 1895.

----------


## Bill Snyder

I know that this is not a bowlback but I thought someone here might be interested in it (even if just to see it) and I did not think it warranted its own thread.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I know that this is not a bowlback but I thought someone here might be interested in it (even if just to see it) and I did not think it warranted its own thread.


It looks like a budget model Portuguese mandolin, i.e., without the "peacock" tuners. It even has a 12 string tailpiece from the larger guitarra. I haven't a clue what that ornamental piece of carved wood is. I can't imagine that it is a type of bridge.

Interesting.

Bill, are you going for it?

Jim

----------


## Bill Snyder

> Bill, are you going for it?
> 
> Jim


NO!

----------


## Jim Garber

I had to refresh the Post a Picture... thread so felt obligated to buy yet another bowlback. This one is labelled Alfonso Moretti and details are on that thread.

Jim

----------


## Fliss

Jim, I hate to break it to you but you didn't have to go to such lengths - I was just about to add photos of my Calace to that thread, now that I've got it back from the luthier!

Still, who needs an excuse for a new mandolin?  

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

I thought it was my duty as a good Cafe member and a charter member of the Loyal Order of the Bowl (LOOB) to make sure that there were new entries on that thread. 

Jim

----------


## Fliss

This De Meglio looks in fairly good condition, but not perfect, and the starting bid seems high:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws....ddle:uk 

No, I'm not tempted, before anyone asks   

Fliss

----------


## Fliss

Not that I'm obsessed with De Meglios, but here's another one at a much lower starting bid. 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws....ddle:uk 

And there's also a Rinaldi De Meglio Clone:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique....iewItem 

Fliss

----------


## jasona

That first one's in pretty rough shape.

----------


## brunello97

This bowlback has an interesting label: Jacobelli Fratelli, NY

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....=1&rd=1

Any background or references on these brothers?

Interesting brass(?) neck brace. It looks pretty fancy for a mend, pretty curious for original equipment.

Mick

----------


## Pete UK

Hi guys
I've been asked by a non-musical friend to help him sell a Ceccherini bowlback dated 1914. It's identical to the one being shown on http://sinierderidder.free.fr/gb/maingb.html at the moment, except that it has 10 strings (triple A and E). I've done a bit of delving on the net and found Ceccherinis valued anywhere between $200 and $8000. I've no idea where to place this one between these margins though, so thought I'd consult the experts. Condition excellent, with original hard leather case etc. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Pete

----------


## brunello97

Hi Pete,
I'll give you 215$ cash for it. UK? I'll come over and pick it up.
Mick

----------


## Pete UK

Thanks for the offer Mick, but I've got a local buyer interested - just wanted an idea of what to ask. I've just found out that the guy on the website I mentioned above is asking 1300 euros for it. Maybe somewhere between your price and his then!?
Pete

----------


## Jim Garber

Pete:
What is esp unusual is the 10 string version. I wonder if the stringing was the way you described or if possibly it was strung with 5 courses.

I believe that Martin has a 10 string but I can't recall if it is a Ceccherini or a Demeglio. Martin?

Does yours have the double soundboarded top?

BTW Sinier's has been there for years as are others they have there. I think they are just waiting for the market to catch up to their prices. 

I think you are right that your price should be somewhere in there between the two extremes. If it is in excellent condition with no further work needed then you can charge, to be fair, I would say around £250-300 (I figure we can speak in multiple currencies here to make it even more confusing) or $500-600 or so. If it needs work to make it playable, then less. 

I doubt BTW that the ten string configuration as it is makes it more desirable. BTW how wide is the neck at the nut area?

BTW the Sinier one is a slightly fancier model than most.


But that one is not as fancy as the one at Vintage Instruments (Philadelphia) -- the one for $8000:


Jim

----------


## Fliss

Martin's 10 string is a Ceccherini, there are some photos of it, alongside his 8-string Ceccherini, on page 15 of the "Post a picture of your bowlback" thread

http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....;st=350 

Does your friend's mandolin look like this, Pete?

Fliss

----------


## Pete UK

Hi - and Fliss, thanks for the link to the info and photos of Martin's 10 string Ceccherini. They are virtually identical. All the inlay patterns and designs are exactly the same. Mine has some slightly worn lettering below the string hooks, over which someone has pencilled 30/10/14 - presumably its birthdate. That would place it as late Art Nouveau I guess. The serial number on this one is 2415 - so, presumably a bit later than Martin's. This one also has what looks like an improvised anchor holding the tailpiece. It also has a small round stud with a circular inlay on the left hand end of the bridge, and a mark where there clearly used to be one at the right hand side. The only other difference that I can see is that it is considerably lighter in colour, with some of the varnish worn away at the front. No other defects to my non-expert eyes.
Jim - to answer your specific questions:
It must have always been configured this way as the string hooks and tail pin arrangement shows.
Yes it's a double top, and the neck is 3cm at the nut.
Would it be ungentlemanly to enquire how much Martin paid for his on ebay??
Thanks for your help in researching this one, guys.
Pete

----------


## Martin Jonas

Hi Pete,

Interesting to see that there's another of these 10-stringers. I love Ceccherini bowlbacks, and own three of them. The ten-stringer was a blatant piece of opportunism, though: it came up on Ebay with a ludicrously low Buy-It-Now, and even though I didn't need another one I thought I'd better grab it before they realise what they had. So, my Ebay price won't help you much to establish fair market rate. As this one is really surplus to requirements, I'm actually thinking of selling mine, too -- it's a lovely instrument, but I have too many bowlbacks and too many Ceccherinis. Fair market value is difficult, but I'd put these around 350 to 500 Pounds, depending on condition. I'd agree with Jim that the 10-string version doesn't add value over the 8-string; indeed I think it will work best if converted to an 8-string, which is what I've done with mine. The nut width on these is almost identical to Ceccherini's normal 8-string nut, so there won't be any playability issues arising from the conversion. The neck on the 10-string is sturdier than on the 8-string, in order to withstand the higher tension, but it's still more slender than, say, a de Meglio neck.

Incidentally, there should not be any varnish on the soundboard: these were originally left unfinished. One of my Ceccherinis is still very very blonde, as is the one at Sinier de Ridder (although I suspect that one of having been sanded or otherwise cleaned up, which I wouldn't do). The other two have clearly been exposed to natural light much more and have darkened considerably. That's perfectly normal for an unfinished instruments, although it does give a slightly uneven colouring depending on light exposure, so that the spruce is still very light underneath the bridge and the tailpiece cover. If yours has been refinished at some stage, that will detract slightly from the value.

Mine is a double top, too, as are almost all other Ceccherinis (I own the only exception I have ever seen).

Martin

----------


## Bill Snyder

I suppose I could do a search on them but I am going to take the lazy way out and ask if Favilla Bros. instruments were well made. I am bidding on this one on ebay. I know that it is rather plain but the copy says it is in playable condition (I know ad copy can say anything) and if I can get it for a total of $40 my wife might not be too upset that I purchased another instrument.

----------


## Eugene

Favilla was pretty prolific and made decent working-class instruments, especially for the B&J house brand. I like the maple and simple butterfly on the eBay piece. Of course, ask the seller a heap of specific questions about condition (the assetion of playable is promising if the seller actually knows how to assess that). Click here.

----------


## Eugene

PS: I don't like the looks of the bridge and suspect a replacement. If so, consider re-replacement. Its position is a little far back onto the cant too. That could be a concern.

----------


## Jim Garber

> and if I can get it for a total of $40 my wife might not be too upset that I purchased another instrument.


Phew!!! Another marriage saved.

Jim

----------


## Bill Snyder

Jim it is not so much the money, because I have not spent much on any of my insturments but our closet is getting a bit full. I know it pales in comparison to what many of you collectors have, but if my mental tally is correct I have a dozen fretted instruments and pieces/parts and starts of a few others in there.

----------


## Jim Garber

It's about time... it's about space...

Boy do I know about all that! As Bob A (I think) has noted: Bowlbacks are like potato chips. In fact I think I may very well have one that is made of potato chips.

Jim

----------


## brunello97

Bill,

I'll fess up to landing the Favilla bowl. I thought it would stay under the radar, but it seems a couple folks bid it up over your $40 spousal-spatial continuum. I do like their instruments, and as Eugene said, maple bowls in particular. I've shared some correspondence with Tom Favilla. He seems like a nice man. I still have a lot of family out on Long Island. Not the GreatLakesRim I usually troll but my childhood stomping grounds nonetheless. Blood still is thicker than mud.

I'm still in a mando-shedding mode, but thought I'd like to check this one out. #Eugene's observation on the bridge position is duly noted. Fingers crossed. I'll post some pictures when it comes in.

Mick

----------


## Bill Snyder

When I posted the link I knew there was always the possibility that I was pointing the instrument out to someone that might overbid me.
As far as spousal approval I tend to purchase or bid on instruments then tell my wife. 
She has never gotten mad just made comments about not needing anymore instruments until I get rid of some. 
The only reason she doesn't mind when I start to build one is the potential of selling it. So far that hasn't happened, but then I haven't finished very many (and none bowlbacks).

----------


## Jim Garber

Start building and buying more bowlbacks, Bill. Woman go crazy over them. My wife insists that I buy every one I see. Kidding, of course...  

Jim of the Bulging Closet Society

----------


## brunello97

Well, Bill, FWIW I had eyeballed the Favilla in advance of your post. I'm usually not an early bidder on ebay though sometimes I'll tag something with a low bid just to keep it in my memory. (I've worked through end times and forgotten a lot of nice ebay deals.) I usually wait a bit to see how things are going. For some reason noone was bidding on that Favilla up until the last day. I think maybe the obscure ad language worked against the seller. 

My wife gives me a bit of a leash, as long as the net inflow and outflow roughly balance. (In a pinch, I just have to bring up her accordion fixation. Is there an AAS?) Just the same, I know that competitive bidding amongst the Loyal Brotherhood is ultimatley not in all or our best interest. The current obscuration of bidder identity by ebay confounds things abit. We Texans are supposedly/justifiably proud of our dancing. My apologies for inadvertently stepping on any toes.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Here's what looks like a fairly nice L+H. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=250118513566

is RWB a Washburn logo?

I haven't seen closed tuners like this on an old bowlback:



Mick

----------


## Eugene

I doubt that was built by Lyon & Healy. I don't think that disc was necessarily original to the mandolin; I cant quite tell on what it's perched. That style tuner isn't uncommon to American bowlbacks. It seems to me I've seen most on Weymanns.

----------


## Jim Garber

I have one other mandolin jpeg marked with that RWB monogram but it is on a disc attached to the peghead. The tuners are different tho. 
The only thing I can think of is Rudolph Wurlitzer Company but I can't figure out whether the "B" makes any sense.

Jim

----------


## brunello97

Jim, 

You know I was thinking Wurlitzer after I posted the question. They were retailers, as I understand, and not fabricators. Is that correct?

You're right, Eugene, not much looks L+H on further inspection. I'm familiar with these type tuners on Weymanns, which I think are very handsome. The closed ones I haven;t seen. Can you post a picture? #

Thanks,

Mikc

----------


## Eugene

Unfortunately, I don't have a picture, and I'm working from a tired old memory in trying to pin these on later Weymanns.

Yes, Wurlitzer was a retailer, one with a house brand that represented diverse makers. I think the disc logo wasn't meant to be read sequentially as "RWB", but that the W is central to emphasize the family name, something like R*W*B. The namesake was "Rudolph B. Wurlitzer."

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is a Loveri, with only a few hours to go. #Pretty basic, though, and it looks much cruder than most Loveris I've seen. #I suspect it's earlier.

Here is another one of the Calace-esque Puglisis, this one dated 1913.

Here is another peculiar job lot of instruments. #Anybody for getting 34 fiddles along with a couple of bowlbacks?

Here is another oddity: a Radionella sort-of-bowlback with f-holes and a peculiar radio-speaker-like cone in the centre.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

This Weymann bowlback model 18 has the aluminum buttons but different gears than the original RWB that Mick posted. I have never seen a Weymann with those types of covered tuners.

Jim

----------


## trebleclef528

QUOTE:"have one other mandolin jpeg marked with that RWB monogram but it is on a disc attached to the peghead. The tuners are different tho. 
The only thing I can think of is Rudolph Wurlitzer Company but I can't figure out whether the "B" makes any sense.

Jim "

RWB definately is (or at least was) the registered trade mark of the Rudolph Wurlitzer Company (now a subsiduary of the Gibson Corporation).. not quite sure what the B represents.

----------


## brunello97

> Here is a Loveri, with only a few hours to go. #Pretty basic, though, and it looks much cruder than most Loveris I've seen. #I suspect it's earlier.


However crude, this Loveri has that no-frills Italian bowlback look that I like. Great Form + Nice Wood. Almost organic in a FLW kind of way. Beautiful typesetting on the label as well.

Martin, what do you know of their quality?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Almost organic in a FLW kind of way.


it took me awhile... I just connected that Mick is an architect and FLW is Frank Lloyd Wright. Where are the cantilevers??

Jim

----------


## brunello97

Jim,
Sorry to be so wonkish. Wright wrote quite astutely on the relationships between material and form. His notion of 'organic' had little to do with objects (or buildings) looking literally like organisms. (viz the Melonius Q poire-shaped units...which I love btw) I'm sure he would have appreciated the slight recurve at the Embergher body/neck joint, for instance.
Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

I had a Loveri passing through my hands a couple of years ago: I bought it from Ebay for a (temporary, as it turned out) member of our ensemble. There are photos on page 11 of the bowlbacks photos thread here. This was a very nice instrument indeed, with a snakehead headstock, ebony tuner buttons and (not visible in the photos) two peculiar cutouts either side of the tailpiece, which I dubbed "exhaust vents". Very fine-grained spruce, and a lovely tone. I particularly liked the violin-like binding around the soundboard.

Martin

----------


## Bob A

There seems to be two different styles of Loveri instruments. THere's the type with the De Meglio-style scratchplate, and the more traditional type of guard that is set into the top. I have not had hands on either, alas. It seems to me that the former is the type most often met with in the UK.

----------


## brunello97

I nice looking Bruno bowl with fluted back. I few unfortunate cracks here and there, but a nice looking instrument. Any thoughts on the maker?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....ddle:us

Mick

----------


## Eugene

I've been trying to figure out who built those Bruno mandolins with the way-uppy scratch plate for some time. I believe Neil's Fischer (was it a Fischer, Neil? I think I'm remebering correctly) is similar.

----------


## Jim Garber

That Bruno has been on eBay for a few months now, originally asking $650 for a few rounds. The seller finally lowered the price some. It is a nice looking one but will take some restoration.

BTW the seller is also the one with that $8000 Ceccherini and those outrageous lyre mandolins being offered at Vintage Instruments in Philadelphia. I have been meaning to get down there for a tryout one of these days. I don't think they will rush off but you never know.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

The seller of this German mandolin will not give up, even tho I had many email msgs explaining that this was a lowend instrument. Oh well.

Jim

----------


## Neil Gladd

> I've been trying to figure out who built those Bruno mandolins with the way-uppy scratch plate for some time. I believe Neil's Fischer (was it a Fischer, Neil? I think I'm remebering correctly) is similar.


Mine is an O. Pagani & Bro., and it does have the same scratch-plate, with a similar, but less elaborate, inlay. (You were close, but it was a different publisher.)

It doesn't have the power of my Seiffert, but I like the tone much better, and it has amazing sustain.

----------


## brunello97

Eugene,

Can you translate "way-uppy"?

Thanks,

Mick

----------


## Neil Gladd

I'm pretty sure he meant that it goes way up around the sound hole.

----------


## Eugene

> Mine is an O. Pagani & Bro., and it does have the same scratch-plate, with a similar, but less elaborate, inlay. (You were close, but it was a different publisher.)


Consarn it! #I remembered "house brand, New York-based publisher" and that obviously (and erroneously) translated to Fischer.

----------


## Eugene

> I'm pretty sure he meant that it goes way up around the sound hole.


Yes indeedy.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I've been trying to figure out who built those Bruno mandolins with the way-uppy scratch plate for some time.


My theory is that these mandolins were built by one of the larger factories in the New York area, either Luigi Ricca or Galiano. According to Mike Holmes:



> Luigi Ricca was a mandolin and guitar manufacturer in New York City from circa 1886 to 1895 when he moved to Brooklyn. In May, 1898 he moved his factory and most of his 200 employees to New Orange, NJ where he continued in business into the new century.


I have seen a handful of Ricca mandolin (own 2.5 of them -- two in good shape and one carcass). If he had 200 employees, no doubt that his factory must have made more than the ones with his label. I have seen many more with Galiano labels. Of course there were other makers like Oscar Schmidt or Favilla.

Jim

----------


## brunello97

Jim,

Have you posted pictues of your Riccas? I would love to see them. I had one for awhile and thought very highly of the quality of work. It was very pretty. I often wondered about the 200 employee quote. That is a lot of folks to keep busy. You'd think there would be more instruments around. Their printed catalog has a pretty extensive line of instruments and is quite a graphic commitment. I wonder if they took in jobs as well to keep all those folks employed.

BTW, my Galiano has a similar way-uppy scratchplate (though a suspiciously L+H looking headstock.) The Favilla bowl I just bought has a similar scratchplate as well. I'll post some pictures of that once I get the top mended--there was a small crack. 

Strangely enough, right now this thread probably contains the most comprehensive collection of information on American bowlbacks (as well as many, many others.) I would love to have it all in .pdf format, given some miracle of collation.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Rather than try to find the pics on other threads...
I finally found a tp cover for the one on the left. According to my catalogs these are style 4.5 and 4 (l to r).

Jim

----------


## Eugene

> Originally Posted by  (Eugene @ May 27 2007, 00:18)
> 
> I've been trying to figure out who built those Bruno mandolins with the way-uppy scratch plate for some time.
> 
> 
> My theory is that these mandolins were built by one of the larger factories in the New York area, either Luigi Ricca or Galiano.


I believe the same, at least regarding a commission from a NY shop for the Bruno house brand, but I've never seen a labeled Ricca or Galiano that carried that style of scratchplate or similar decor to the Bruno pieces.

----------


## brunello97

Here is my Galiano, with its way-uppity. It is an enjoyable bowl to play. The headstock looks very Washburn-ish to me. It has the same floral-etched tuner covers as the Bruno above. Parts is Parts, I guess, but it confounds some of the detectivity.

Thanks for posting the Riccas, Jim. I like the 'landing spaceship' inlay on the fretboard. Do you play these much?

Some guys spend Sundays talking about the Pistons or the SF Giants.....

Mick

----------


## Fliss

I don't know if it counts as a bowlback of note, but I've just updated the "post a picture of your bowlback" thread with some pictures of a bowlback, currently in my possession, built by Achille Lanfranco e Figlio -

http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....;st=400

I'd be very interested in anything anyone can tell me about Lanfranco. This one was labelled "Maidstone" over the original Lanfranco label, but seems a nice, well-built instrument. 

Fliss

----------


## brunello97

Fliss, I have a Lanfranco, which bears a striking resemblance to the DeMureda/Lazarus the resurrection of which Dave Hyndes documented here. I do see them pass by along the Ebay from time to time. I have a hunch they are fairly modest instruments-though I have seen a few nice ones under their labels. I'm fond of mine.

Given this range and similarity to other medium quality Italian bowls, I've long wonder whether they were a sales outfit or actual manufacturers. 

I've often wondered what Achilles Lanfranco's son's name was. Patroclus? Hector? Ulysses?

Mick

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi all,




> I believe the same, at least regarding a commission from a NY shop for the Bruno house brand, but I've never seen a labeled Ricca or Galiano that carried that style of scratchplate or similar decor to the Bruno pieces.


I seem to remember that Angelo Mannello's shop made instruments for Bruno. There was conversation to that effect some time back on this forum. I'll look through the Met's book to see if that was the source of the reference.

Eric

----------


## Jim Garber

> I seem to remember that Angelo Mannello's shop made instruments for Bruno. There was conversation to that effect some time back on this forum. I'll look through the Met's book to see if that was the source of the reference.


Eric:
 You are correct that Lawrence Libin says that Mannello made mandolins for Bruno's shop for "exclusive resale." I guess that means that Bruno was the sole resaler for mannello's mandolins. Does that also mean that all mandolins sold by Bruno were made by Mannello or did they also engage the services of other manufacturers?

OTOH: I have never seen a Mannello-labelled mandolin with that oddball Bruno-style scratchplate.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

"Mandolone a quattro corde" circa 1900 in the classifieds.

Is this actually a mandocello or mandola (octave mandolin for us over in the uS)?




Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Well, it shows you how good my memory is. We discussed this with the owner in the fall of 2003 right here. Alex came up with the ID:



> The instrument shown here by you is a Mandolone a quatro corde made around 1900 by one of the luthiers of the famous Neapolitan Vinaccia family.
> 
> Since the measurements - it's overall length is 41 inches = 104,14 cm; it´s width 14.25 inches = 36,195 cm and it´s scale length is 24 inches = 60,96 cm - are given, it can be compared with a Mandoloncello (Mandocello) which has a similar scale length that can vary from ± 60 up to 68 cm.
> 
> The tuning of your instrument is - according again to it´s scale length - most likely that of a Mandoloncello: CC - GG - dd - aa. The only difference is that it is single strung: C - G - d - a.
> 
> The Mandolone a quatro corde was created by Pasquale Vinaccia (1806-±1899) in the last decennium of the 19th century to be used in mandolin orchestras to intensify the volume of the Mandoloncello. And more in particular to strengthen the ´weak´ sound of the 3rd and 4th string-pair of that instrument.
> 
> The Mandolone a quatro corde is played with a plectrum and strung with metal (bronze) round-wound strings with a steel inner kern.
> ...


What is esp interesting about this one is that it only has 4 strings. I could not quite tell from the photo since it was so dark.

Jim

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi Jim,

Yes, that's what I thought I remembered (now, why can't I remember where I put my keys and glasses?) :-)

"Exclusive resale" would seem to imply resale of Mannello labeled instruments. On the other hand, Libben (I think) also credits Mannello as having a rather large shop... something in advance of 75 people, if I recall. I believe he brought them over to America from his home town in Italy. I'm not sure how long that shop lasted, but the number of surviving labeled Mannellos would seem to be rather small for such a large staff. I have always assumed that they were making pedestrian instruments destined for other labels... Just a guess, though, nothing more.

... and of course, both Mannello and Bruno were in New York, so the Mannello shop is at least a possiblity as a job shop for Bruno.

Eric

ps - As for "exclusive resale", in my research I have found several of the over-the-top presentation-quality Mannellos (akin to those in the Met) bearing someone elses label pasted over that of Mannello. So clearly even his top-end stuff was sold without his name attached... though one wonders if he knew. I find this a little sad, given what clearly went into these amazing instruments.

----------


## brunello97

Here is a photo of Angelo Manello and some of his work. What reference from Lawrence Libin are y'all referring to? I found this in a MetMoA catalog on JSTOR. Probably old news to you bloodhounds....

Mick

----------


## Eugene

Libin, Laurence. 1985. American Musical Instruments in The Metropolitan Museum of Art. W.W. Norton.

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Eugene, it looks like a nice book. They have it here the music library. I found a budget copy on Amazon. 

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here's something truly rare: a Monzino styled like a de Meglio or a Ceccherini. Looks in pretty good shape, too.

Another rarity: here is the first time I've seen a label say "allievi di de Meglio". Unsurprisingly, this is also a de Meglio-esque style, although not nearly as slavishly copied as many others.

This should be interesting to watch: a 1913 Embergher No. 1 orchestral model. That tailpiece is presumably non-original, isn't it? The seller says it has been in his family since 1913 and is unrestored. There seems to be a crack in the photos, so I would think some work is needed.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Martin, for posting these. I think I'm going to launch a bid or two on the Monzino. It is a nice looking mandolin to my eye.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

The Monzino does look interesting, tho hard to tell what the actual condition is. Known maker selling in the Uk will prob go for a decent price. Good luck, Mick.

I have one other Romito & Carbone but that one resembles the tipo 1a Demeglio very closely. Maybe this one is more modern?

As for the Embergher, yes the tailpiece looks wrong and probably made in Germany. The headstock shape looks a little different from the std also. I looked all thru Ralf and Barry's book and all the orch headstocks have those slight lobes. This one doesn't.



Jim

----------


## Bob A

I like the look of the Monzino; sleek in its own way, and absent the slots cut into the bowl. Give it a good run, Mick. (Let us know if you're pulling out).

Embergher's over 1500 euros already, with a long time to run. SOMEone's a believer.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim,


Wrong bridge type, but nevertheless I thought this might be of some interest to you:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-a-doghe-scanalate_W0QQitemZ280118351764QQihZ018QQcategoryZ  10179QQssPageNameZWDVW

QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Click here to view the Italian Ebay Webpage.</a>


Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

Yes, that is a fancier version by the same maker of mine.

You have an excellent memory, Alex.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi,


<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Antike-Embergher-Roma-Mandoline-Korpus-defekt_W0QQitemZ280120397651QQihZ018QQcategoryZ215  9
1QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Click here to see a very unhappy Roman lady....</a>    


Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Antike-Embergher-Roma-Mandoline-Korpus-defekt_W0QQitemZ280120397651QQihZ018QQcategoryZ215  9
> 
> 
> 
> 1QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Click here to see a very unhappy Roman lady....</a>


Ah, nice and airconditioned for those summer months.  In any case, I bet it goes for over 100.

In the meantime, not bowlbacks but made by prominent mandolin makers:

Domenico Cerrone viola

Raffaele Calace violin

Jim

----------


## brunello97

Alex,

Thanks for posting that. By coincidence I am repairing a Puglisi mandola that needs rebracing. Seeing the Embergher bracing like this has been very helpful. I was thinking of including the minor braces to either side of the soundhole. Are those typical on Emberghers? 

Also, are both transverse braces below the soundhole typically angled as we see in this damsel-in-distress?

thanks!

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

I am rather tempted to put in a bid on the bowl-less Embergher for the practice of building a bowl. I get the idea that the postage rates only apply to Germany rather than posting it to Australia? Could a German speaker perhaps offer a translation of some the bits of the German ebay site below the pictures?

Thanks

graham

----------


## Jim Garber

> I am rather tempted to put in a bid on the bowl-less Embergher for the practice of building a bowl. I get the idea that the postage rates only apply to Germany rather than posting it to Australia? Could a German speaker perhaps offer a translation of some the bits of the German ebay site below the pictures?


Graham:
Just change the .de ending to .com in the URL and eBay will translate all the eBay listing info into English. 

The description says something like estimated to be from 1913. The body is broken. The rest of the mandolin is in good condition. 

I am sure that Martin or others can translate better.

Just contact the seller to determine the shipping charges and methods of payment.

Jim

----------


## Graham McDonald

How wonderful. I never knew it could do that. Thanks, Jim

cheers

graham

----------


## Alex Timmerman

> Alex,
> 
> Thanks for posting that. #I was thinking of including the minor braces to either side of the soundhole. #Are those typical on Emberghers? #
> 
> Also, are both transverse braces below the soundhole typically angled as we see in this damsel-in-distress?
> 
> thanks!
> 
> Mick


Hello Mick,

Yes, the minor braces are usually there. As are the angled transverse braces below the soundhole. This last charateristic is also seen in other mandolins, like for instance the Neapolitan instruments.

It is a pitty to see this instrument so damaged; I like these early Emberghers very much because they are so well proportioned. 
Just look at the head - slightly broader at the top and what a difference in appearance.
And that is only the outside! If you are lucky to find a well preserved example, even one similar like this No.1 orchestra model, you will often notice what a beautiful clear and well balanced sound they produce.

If one here wants to have a go for this poor lady, the best thing first I think is to ask the seller if he/she still has other parts (ribs and perhaps pieces of the lable) of the mandolin. 



Best and succes,

Alex

----------


## brunello97

Alex,
It would be great to see someone work a Lazarus miracle on this mandolin. 

I'm going to give these small side braces a go. I like the idea much better than laminating on a piece of veneer to stiffen this area.

To be clear, though, I do have a follow up question on the transverse bracing, though. The Neapolitan bowlbacks I have (albeit far from Embergher quality) do have two transverse braces below the soundhole, but the first (the one closest to the soundhole) is set perpendicular to the neck rather than angled. The second brace is angled-as we see here. I've seen this as the typical arrangement on American bowlbacks as well.

To see BOTH braces angled is new to my inexperienced eye, and perhaps a small benefit of seeing this cadaver. (But that is how Leonardo learned to draw, I suppose.) Given the superior sound and craft of the Emberghers I imagine it was heard as having some benefit? 

Any others have experience or observations on this?

Thanks,

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> This should be interesting to watch: a 1913 Embergher No. 1 orchestral model. That tailpiece is presumably non-original, isn't it? The seller says it has been in his family since 1913 and is unrestored. There seems to be a crack in the photos, so I would think some work is needed.


I still did not hear anything from you Embergher fanatics as to why this one mentioned by Martin lacks those slight lobes on the headstock. I find it a little strange. BTW it is over 2000 now.

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

> The description says something like estimated to be from 1913. The body is broken. The rest of the mandolin is in good condition. 
> 
> I am sure that Martin or others can translate better.
> 
> Just contact the seller to determine the shipping charges and methods of payment.


Not much else in the German description, except that the seller says that he had intended to throw it in the bin until told by a musician friend that it might be restorable. #I guess he doesn't expect much from this auction. #The shipping description says "Germany only", but I recommend (as Jim said) that you contact the seller, as he probably never imagined that somebody would be interested in international shipping for a dead mandolin.

It looks to me like this one is missing its tailpiece as well, although that's a bit difficult to tell form the photos. #I wonder where the "estimated year" of 1913 comes from? #Maybe he does still have some fragments of the label. #The tuners, incidentally, are the same as on mine, with the nice brown buttons.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> I wonder where the "estimated year" of 1913 comes from? Maybe he does still have some fragments of the label. The tuners, incidentally, are the same as on mine, with the nice brown buttons.


I would imagine that the esitmate comes from the other more intact 1913 Embergher on eBay at the moment. Expect a few more of these to surface soon esp since this intact one has already gotten failry high.

Hmmmm... original tuners... Graham if you decide against it, I might attempt it for the tuners to replace my non-original ones.

Jim

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim and all,

About the 'lobs' normally seen on these Embergher models. Every now and then I find Embergher mandolins with the lobs sawed off. This was done to get - when the original (and well fitting) tuning device had broken down - a new tuning mechanism was placed to the side(s). In most cases however the metal plates of these other and non original Embergher tuning devices are longer than the originals. And instead of making a new plate for the gears and rollers, they just sawed away the lobs (or parts of the lobs).
Of course tuning mechanisms do come in pairs and often one only can buy them as a pair. And than there is also the un-estetic view of only one lob cut away and that's probably why we always see both lobs gone. And sometimes also the two smaller lobs at the bottom of the headstock are gone.


Best, 

Alex # 

Here is a photo that speaks for itself.

----------


## brunello97

Nice drawing, Alex.

Mick

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Mick,

To illustrate how far people can go, I'll see if I can find a photo that shows an Embergher with the lower and smaller lobs sawed off to get the plate of the tuning device fitting.


Greetings, 

Alex

----------


## Embergher

> I wonder where the "estimated year" of 1913 comes from?


I think this is where the estimated year comes from # 

Why do nice mandolins so often get butchered? # ... it's just unthinkable ...

----------


## Bill Snyder

I know that it is not a bowlback, but I thought some of you might be interested in this auction of a Bohm-Waldzither.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,


As promised, here some more of these deliberate damage on headstocks of Roman mandolins. 

Attached are photo collages of a 1924 Luigi Embergher Orchestra Model 1 mandolin of which the lower lobs of the headstock and half of the upper lobs are removed.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

And more in detail, it become even more clear why the wood was sawed away; by cutting the metal plate one would loose the two outer screws and that would weaken the grip of the tuning mechanism to the side if the mandolin.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Mick and all,

For your information: Here is a photo with an view on the 1st tone-bar brace (there are two of these tone bars placed before the crank in the soundtable) in a 1914 Raffaele Calace mandolin. 


Best and enjoy,

Alex

----------


## Martin Jonas

> For your information: Here is a photo with an view on the 1st tone-bar brace (there are two of these tone bars placed before the crank in the soundtable) in a 1914 Raffaele Calace mandolin.


That brace with its assymetric peak on the treble side looks much like the one in my Giuseppe Vinaccia, although in mine it's the second brace, further away from the soundhole, that's most assymetric.

Incidentally, Mick has started a separate thread on the topic of bracing here.

Martin

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

And again a nice and interesting early Embergher mandolin at the German department of Ebay. 

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-Luigi-Embergher-von-1905_W0QQitemZ150128476860QQihZ005QQcategoryZ10179  QQrdZ1QQss


PageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">View it at this #Webpage.</a>


Best, 

Alex

----------


## Alex Timmerman

And for auction or direct sale from the same seller as the above mentioned 1905 Embergher mandolin, a nice Raffaele Brevettato 1903 mandolin!


Click here to view that mandolin.


Best again,

Alex

----------


## Alex Timmerman

And an interesting 1910 Neapolitan concert mandolin by one of Raffaele's students and followers, Georges Garofalo.

You can see photos of this mandolin by clicking here.


About Georges Garofalo not much is known, except for the fact that his instruments (he build mostly guitars and the instruments of the mandolin family) bear labels that indicate a working period of this master in between the last years of 1890-ties and late 1930-ties. Garofalo first learned and worked in the Calace firm before he established in 1910 his own atelier in Naples. In 1919 he 'emmigrated' to Marseilles (France) where he successfully continued his musical instrument making business.


Greetings,

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

Nothing like those Italian mandolins...

Matching set of Brunos - both with the "Bluto" pickguard. Not sure where the seller gets that they are Larsons but whatever.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> And for auction or direct sale from the same seller as the above mentioned 1905 Embergher mandolin, a nice Raffaele Brevettato 1903 mandolin!


Alex,
 What was the patented (brevettato) part of this Calace?

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> And again a nice and interesting early Embergher mandolin at the German department of Ebay.


The number 3s are the ones that most appeal to me. Beautiful.

Jim

----------


## brunello97

> Nothing like those Italian mandolins...
> 
> Matching set of Brunos - both with the "Bluto" pickguard. Not sure where the seller gets that they are Larsons but whatever.
> 
> Jim


Now we have Larson made Brunos...? My head is spinning with these guys. The 8-string does have that Larson-esque ebony line beneath the neck binding. I like that detail alot. That neck detail and the headstock is part of what has me thinking my boat-back may be Larson. (It is in dry-dock right now.) Still it is hard to claim such authorship on such a small feature, even if you don't see it quite so often. 

I'm guessing it is the similarity to the beard Popeye's nemesis sported that has prompted the pickguard sobriquet?

But back to the brevetatto question....Alex?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> I'm guessing it is the similarity to the beard Popeye's nemesis sported that has prompted the pickguard sobriquet?


Yes, a highly technical term coined by yours truly...



Jim

----------


## Bob A

I've not seen a Calace like that without a fingerboard extension. I wonder if it has been lopped off?

----------


## Jim Garber

> I've not seen a Calace like that without a fingerboard extension. I wonder if it has been lopped off?


Yes, that is strange esp in a higher end soloist instrument. Also the butt-end resembles those of Kasermann.

Jim

----------


## Embergher

> The number 3s are the ones that most appeal to me. Beautiful.
> 
> Jim


Yes, _once_ it was a really nice N°3 ... pity about the damage on the table and scratchplate and the replaced nut. If it were in reasonable condition it would probably have been sold by now, though it's quite a high price for an orchestral mandolin. Well, you never know on Ebay ... that 1913 N°1 is already over 2800 EUR with 2 days to go and it's not in what you can call _good condition_

----------


## Martin Jonas

Ceccherini on Ebay Italy. #A few interesting features:

- The headstock is quite a bit different from the norm: one single engraved tuner plate rather than two separate ones, no headstock cutout, nice headstock inlay (which one of mine has, too).
- Binding is (fake?) tortoiseshell with pearl inlays, rather than the normal tulipwood. #I have to say I prefer the tulipwood.
- Once again a different scratchplate inlay -- no two seem the same. #This one is quite intricate, but not as pleasing as some.
- Non-original bridge.
- This looks to have a bone nut, plus zero fret, similar to Emberghers, rather than the normal brass/silver nut.
- Unusual third/fifth fret inlays.

I can't tell if it has the second soundboard, but it probably does. #Like all others I've seen, this one also has the "Alban Voigt" label. Looks pretty clean; I wonder it if has been sanded down. #Seller and current high bidder are both old Ebay hands.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Thanks, Martin, for posting these. #I think I'm going to launch a bid or two on the Monzino. It is a nice looking mandolin to my eye.


I see it went for 206 Pounds to a US buyer -- is that you, Mick? Quite a good price, I would think, assuming structural integrity. I was expecting around 300 Pounds.

The Romito & Carbone went for 156 Pounds, which I would think is too much. Most genuine de Meglios go for less, although admittedly it seems in very nice condition.

Martin

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Now we have Larson made Brunos...? My head is spinning with these guys. The 8-string does have that Larson-esque ebony line beneath the neck binding. I like that detail alot. That neck detail and the headstock is part of what has me thinking my boat-back may be Larson. (It is in dry-dock right now.) Still it is hard to claim such authorship on such a small feature, even if you don't see it quite so often.


I Googled Larsen and Bruno, and here is the only other hit I got.

----------


## brunello97

It looks like the same Bruno, Bluto scratchplate and all.....A lot of the Ebay ad copy reads the same as from the website. Is Robert Hartman associated with 'rchguitars'. (Like Quasimodo, I've got a hunch.) The price seems more reasonable on ebay. Still, the whole Larson attribution phenomenon can seem like a mysterious science, even though RH seems to be the man. I'm glad he has a website up and going on the Larsons. It will help the cause immeasureably. A lot of nice instruments on the slide show.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

> I see it went for 206 Pounds to a US buyer -- is that you, Mick? #Quite a good price, I would think, assuming structural integrity. #I was expecting around 300 Pounds.
> 
> Martin


No that wasn't me, unfortunately not, Martin. The shipping costs (+130$) kind of pushed me off. It is a very nice looking instrument-and of course I was attracted by the Monzino connection. I don't quite understand why shipping from the UK to the USA is so high when from the states to the UK (or the continent) is in the 15-20L range. I've sent a number of mandolins over for under $45 US. Maybe something about mailing into the headwinds? 

Martin, are there any alternative shippers -or methods- in the UK that you might recommend, or is it a more acceptable practice to bulk up the 'handling' end of 'shipping and handling'? It is true, sometimes I will get a shipping quote for around 15L which throws my whole understanding for a loop. 

I've bailed on any number of EuroBay auctions due to high shipping. My instrument budget is not so high that the additional $75-100 won't tip the scale sometimes.

Not to divert the thead over such a mundance topic, but my same question viz shipping is out there for Italy as well. I've sent packages from Italy by private shippers for very reasonable rates. The post is a another story....Any recommendations on shipping from Italia? 

BTW, I'm happy to act as a conduit for any of our Euro-MC folks if it helps with shipping costs or convenience on US EMando-Bay auctions. Just let me know. I'm close to the USPS office and am in and out of there on a regular basis. A friendly lot at the station (and one particularly charming lass at the counter.....)

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

Mick -- I think the quoted prices are about right. It is possible that there are special bargain shippers, but looking around on the Parcelforce (the parcel arm of Royal Mail) and DHL web sites, somewhere between 50 Pounds and 70 Pounds is standard for mandolin-sized parcels. DHL seems to be somewhat flexible in their rates, and there are third-party web sites that quote you substantially cheaper rate if you book DHL though them, e.g. interparcel.com, but even then it comes to about 40 Pounds. I suspect that the big difference is volumetric charging, though: I've just had a look at the USPS web site and see that they charge by weight only with no mention of size. In contrast, Parcelforce and DHL will ask for the dimensions of the box and for lightweight but bulky items will calculate a "volumetric weight" which is greater than the actual weight. For mandolins, the volumetric weight is about three times the actual weight, which corresponds to about double the shipping cost. _However_, it is my experience that some post offices don't know about or don't bother with volumetric weights and just ask you to pop the parcel on the scale and charge you accordingly. I've sent a mandolin to Ireland for 14 Pounds that should have cost 30 Pounds. Luck of the draw, unfortunately.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Martin

Thanks for the clarification....The volumetric charge makes perfect sense. I think I've experienced the 'tale of the tape' with USPS as well - I've had it boost the shipping rates here by $20 or more. Most reps pull it out, but occasionally one slips by. I know better now to hang on to my slightly undersized shipping boxes. Too bad that the standard rates remain so high.  Still, if the dollar keeps plunging a mando-holiday in the UK grows more a plausible two-birds-with-one-stone.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Here is a modest bowlback of perhaps interest to the easterly members of the Brotherhood:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....SS:US:1

Mugwumps has a listing for the Tipaldi Bros (and I noticed one turned up on a UK auction site for a paltry 875L.

Any background on i fratelli?

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Any background on i fratelli?


I know them as importers and publishers. I acquired several of their editions last year, mainly arrangements. I don't know that they actually built mandolins. I'll see if I have any good pictures at home.

----------


## Bob A

I'm a bit shocked at the parcelforce prices myself. While the quoted price is certainly correct, it is way too high for the level of service. I had a mandolin shipped from France via fedex and got it overnighted for that kind of money, and parcelforce takes several days.

I can't remember exactly, but I think I 've rec'd mandolins from Australia for half that cost; but just the other day I was interested in a book from Down Under, and the postage was $11 US for surface, and $17 for air.

International shipping is too important to let government monopolies get involved. I'm sure there must be alternatives at the prices they're charging.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Ha!


Yes, these costs are simply outrageous. 

But what do you think of this: the airplane companies charge you 150 Euro when you take your own mandola/guitar/mandoloncello or bass with you to the US. And another 150 when you fly back! And for this amount your instrument is "placed" (by others!?!!) in the bagage compartment of the airplane... #

Did you ever look down from your airplane window how these airfield workers deal with your luggage? Well don't; it will become your worst nightmare...


Best,

Alex

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Still, if the dollar keeps plunging a mando-holiday in the UK grows more a plausible two-birds-with-one-stone.


Well, if you (or any other MC mando brethren) do, please drop by for a bit of mandotasting! I may even be able to rustle up the odd pint of beer...

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

The cost to ship my Embergher from the Uk to me last year was pretty exhorbitant. Luckily my brother-in-law was over there at the right time and was able to drive over from London, pick it up for me and fly with it back home. 

This is the biggest problem with considering buying instruments or anything else from Europe.

Jim

----------


## brunello97

> Originally Posted by  (brunello97 @ June 06 2007, 10:34)
> 
> Still, if the dollar keeps plunging a mando-holiday in the UK grows more a plausible two-birds-with-one-stone.
> 
> 
> Well, if you (or any other MC mando brethren) do, please drop by for a bit of mandotasting! #I may even be able to rustle up the odd pint of beer...
> 
> Martin


Ah, so how would a German guy living in the UK compare German mandolins (read beer) to English mandolins (read ale)? It seems that exploring the different sounds (read flavors) would make for a happy bit of life's work. 

I would be fascinated to know how you appreciate the differences in volume (read temperature) that these mandolins (read beer) are played (read quaffed) at.

I hope we can flesh out this discussion in person one day, Martin.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Unfortunately the geographic center for all of us here in Classical land is prob somewhere in the mid Atlantic Ocean. Beer would be very salty. However, I intend to cash in and pay off my beer chits one of these days with many of you good folks. I hope to do so with Alex this summer and wish i could with Richard (again) this month. Oh well.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

For anyone in the market for a Sakis bowlback, currently being sold in New York on craigslist.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Looks a lot like my Kevorkian, except for bowl lining and label, even to the silver/black walnut.

----------


## Jim Garber

That 1/2 of an Embergher is bid up to 242 by one of the Taiwanese luthiers. 

Jim

----------


## brunello97

> That 1/2 of an Embergher is bid up to 242 by one of the Taiwanese luthiers. 
> 
> Jim


In which case, we'll probably be seeing it again fairly soon, with some 'improved' ornamentation. I never could see what anyone saw in those Emberghers. They were just so 'plain looking.'

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Carlo has a rather odd-looking Calace Classico D in the classifieds.



Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

> That 1/2 of an Embergher is bid up to 242 by one of the Taiwanese luthiers.


Final price 311 Euro. Makes the prices paid by me and by Jim for our complete Emberghers look very reasonable indeed! Surely it's going to cost at least 1000 Euro to get a luthier to build a bowl, and then it still won't be a real Embergher. At least it was saved from a Taiwanese Frankenstein existence.

Martin

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Matching set of Brunos - both with the "Bluto" pickguard.


4 hours to go and no takers on the Brunos. I'm not convinced about the Larsen connection, but I do rather like them since they are so much like my own mandolin. If I had $600, though, there are things I need more...

----------


## Jim Garber

Bluto notwithstanding... Neil, do you really need a twelve string?

Ah, late spring cleaning in the UK: 

Fliss: is this deMeglio in the classifieds yours?

Ceccherini from Martin.

Jim

----------


## Fliss

> Ah, late spring cleaning in the UK: 
> 
> Fliss: is this deMeglio in the classifieds yours?
> 
> Jim


Yep! #I decided that, of my bowlbacks, the Calace feels more right for me so the De Meglio is in need of a good home. 

Fliss

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Bluto notwithstanding... Neil, do you really need a twelve string?


Yes, I feel the need to spend much more of my time tuning! Since I can't afford it though, I'll just tune the instruments I have more often.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Ah, late spring cleaning in the UK: 
> 
> Fliss: is this deMeglio in the classifieds yours?
> 
> Ceccherini from Martin.


Bit of a coincidence: I knew Fliss wanted to sell her de Meglio (fine instrument!), but we hadn't quite intended to post it on the same day.

Still, if anyone in the US wants a double pack, I'm sure we get better shipping rates in a single box...

Martin

----------


## trebleclef528

Now if i had 6000 Euro to spare I would certainley consider <a href="http://cgi.ebay.fr/MANDOLINE-Italienne-annee-1770-ANTONIUS-VINACCIA_W0QQitemZ290127831094QQihZ019QQcategoryZ1
04485QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a>as a nice investment.

I wonder how many more of these are hiding away in closets? Anyone living in a house that was built around 1770 with lots of cupboards?
Ian

----------


## vkioulaphides

Interesting... Yes, Bob, the products of Greek luthiers do look remarkably alike, considering that(nearly)all luthiers buy mass-produced parts from only a handful of shops, "bowlwrights", etc. Kevorkian, however, does a FAR better job in assembling them, and in setting up the instrument than the factory of Sakis (Matsikas).

Sr. Mazzaccara's "Romanized" Calace is oddly so, with slotted peghead and (crudely) Embergheresque scroll pickguard. Odd...

----------


## Jim Garber

> Now if i had 6000 Euro to spare I would certainley consider <a href="http://cgi.ebay.fr/MANDOLINE-Italienne-annee-1770-ANTONIUS-VINACCIA_W0QQitemZ290127831094QQihZ019QQcategoryZ1
> 
> 04485QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a>as a nice investment.


I would want some assurance that that is genuine esp for that price and if I wanted it for investment purposes. 

Jim

----------


## trebleclef528

Quote: JGarber
I would want some assurance that that is genuine esp for that price and if I wanted it for investment purposes. 

Agreed.. i think I would be collecting and paying in person!

----------


## Jim Garber

This 1904 Martin looks to be in exceptional condition. Too bad the seller is asking an outrageous price. I would think it should be 1/2 that.

He has a youtube clip to show it off but the sound is distorted. He prob shouldn't have mentioned it.

Jim

----------


## brunello97

The 'white glove' thing is an interesting marketing ploy. #I've never played with gloves on, but have thought about trying those fingerless mitten things the Yankees up here use in the wintertime. 

Great looking Martin though. #Their style was classic even in 1904. #Do I risk heresy by suggesting some of the same understatement is present-and perhaps admired -as folks appreciate about Emberghers? #(Obviously not the same details or quality perhaps, but maybe you get my drift.) #I wonder if Eugene 'Hunt' is still getting a cut on all these sales.......

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Here is what looks to be a steeply priced "Galiano" with what appears to be Raphael Ciani's imprinteur. # #Not to get back into the morass of the 'incestuous' NY area luthiery shops, but I thought Ciani did his work in the US. The seller suggests this was brought from Italy ca 1911. # My hunch is that he/she is a bit confused, but does anyone know if the Galiano-Ciani mob produced mandolins in Italy before working in the States?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....ddle:us

Too bad the photos are so bad and the price so high. #I'm very interested and intrigued by these ex-pat Italian makes: Grauso, Ricca, Manello, Galiano, Ciani, etc.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Seller is prob confused because of family legend and the Italian on the label (see below in a clear photo). This may be the same one but i recall recently another Ciani mandolin that was on eBay for a few rounds at $2500. This may be where the price comes from.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> Great looking Martin though. Their style was classic even in 1904. Do I risk heresy by suggesting some of the same understatement is present-and perhaps admired -as folks appreciate about Emberghers? (Obviously not the same details or quality perhaps, but maybe you get my drift.) I wonder if Eugene 'Hunt' is still getting a cut on all these sales.......


Risk heresy? I think many of us here are equally attracted to the workmanship of the Martin factor... no heresy here. Eugene has a lovely understated Martin. As far as Emberghers, maybe not same details but certainly the attention to detail. You can certainly see it in any of the Martin instruments from the lowest grade to the highest. 

Mick, who is Eugene 'Hunt'?

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

I guess you also get label as this one, where an expat luthier in New York labelled his instruments with "GAETANO PUNTOLILLO Fabbricante di Strumenti ARMONICI Napoli - New York". I very much doubt that he had a workshop in Naples, too. Puntolillo, incidentally, also built banjos and guitars under the "Majestic" brand. Peculiarly, his banjo and guitar designs appear to have been licensed to Germany, where the licensee then started to build typicaly-German mandolins with the Majestic brand name and logo. My grandfather's mandolin, which I inherited and on which I learned to play, is a Majestic but clearly never got anywhere near New York or Naples -- it's a typical German seven-stave semi-roundback.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Martin, I wonder if this Puntolillo label is from the same instrument (the tear looks familiar.) The date on this is roughly around the time of our Galiano seller's family arrival to NYC.  I want to believe he bilingual labeling on the Puntolillo and Galiano is more than just clever marketing but addressing the huge pool of recent Italian immigrants in the region. The Napoli-New York thing might be eyewash but also might suggest that materials, luthiers, even components might have been immigrating as well as customers. I may be projecting late 20thC manufacturing methods onto this, but Victor's experience with a centralized 'bowl making' trade (in Greece? - I hope I'm remembering this right) and the similarity between many low end Neapolitan makers makes me wonder about how some of these shops operated.

My wife and some colleagues are working on a video documentary of the accordion and accordion players in the Detroit during the big industrial run up here.  I keep hinting that there is a MUCH MORE INTERESTING instrument for such a research work, but so far no go.

It would be grand if someone took up the torch on the history of the NY scene as Sheri Mignano has done in SF.

Jim - sorry for being so often obscure. I've been busting our Eugene for about a year on his inflationary Martin comments. Referencing the Hunt Bros. and their silver cabal is probably less accurate than linking Eugene to Alan Greenspan. The price of used Martins seems to ebb and flow relative to Eugene's statements here at the MC. 

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

> Martin, #I wonder if this Puntolillo label is from the same instrument (the tear looks familiar.)


The same instrument as what? #The label you've posted is clearly not from the instrument I linked to. #As you can see in the photo below, it does not have the tearing of your photo (and in any case is a 1914, not 1912). #Where is your label from? #The current owner of Majestic Guitars, a descendent of Gaetano, may be interested to hear of it, as he's researching his family history. #I corresponded with him a few years ago about my Majestic, but he lost interest when he realised it was a German-built instrument.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Sorry Martin, I saw that curved line in the soundhole of your post and misunderstood (not wearing my glasses yet this am.) #I'm not exactly sure where I turned this up, but will check. #I have a few images of the mandolin. I'd be happy to forward them along.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

It is this one (on the right) sold (not to me!) on eBay in April of this year. It is a true basket case, tho. The back is scary and would be one for Mr. Hynds.

Jim

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## brunello97

That's the one, Jim. For some reason I wasn't able to snag a full Monty view. Interesting name, Gaetano Puntoillo.  Kind of an infamous Italian moniker. My barber in Austin has the same name. We never talk politics, though.

Mick

----------


## Eugene

> Jim - sorry for being so often obscure. #I've been busting our Eugene for about a year on his inflationary Martin comments. #Referencing the Hunt Bros. and their silver cabal is probably less accurate than linking Eugene to Alan Greenspan. #The price of used Martins seems to ebb and flow relative to Eugene's statements here at the MC.


Martin stinks! #(There, maybe I can afford to buy another now.) #One thing I really like about the mature Martin aesthetic is the shifting of the soundhole a couple cm toward the bridge to accommodate a full 20 frets. #I don't have a real explanation for why, I just really like that look.

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Eugene, it helps to have an insider's access to these pronouncements...maybe I'll be able to afford a Martin upgrade myself. Mine is a modest 00 but as you said it boasts a slightly longer fretboard than my GreatLakesRim reps-something I hadn't i.d.ed before but perhaps sensed, as someone in PA had the eye then to slightly taper the return curve of the bowl to the neckside of the soundhole. Very subtle but elegant even on the student models. Actually, someone had done an incomplete refret job on it before I got it. It was chewing up my hands and I finally sat down last month and reworked all the frets. Now it plays (and sounds) much more enjoyable. I'd love to upgrade if good fortune allows - or perhaps snake a Martin made-for X version, hence some of my ongoing interest in the intertwinings of US east coast makers.

Mick

----------


## Eugene

> It is this one (on the right) sold (not to me!) on eBay in April of this year. It is a true basket case, tho. The back is scary and would be one for Mr. Hynds.


Out of curiosity, is the one on the left an early, entry-level Fairbanks?

----------


## Jim Garber

Eugene:
You never fail to amaze me!! Yes, indeed!

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Hmmm... what is Carlo Mazzacarra up to here? Some rejects from his workshop?

Jim

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Hmmm... what is Carlo Mazzacarra up to here? Some rejects from his workshop?


That IS very strange. Some of those necks look a bit on the short side. I had never really thought about the order of construction, but it also looks very strange to have uncarved necks attached to a finished bowl. Having only built electric mandolins, myself, the neck was always fully carved before it was attached to the body.

----------


## trebleclef528

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/MANDOLINO-A-DOGHE-SCANNELLATE-DEI-PRIMI-900-mandolin_W0QQitemZ150131780128QQihZ005QQcatego
ryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> is a strange one indeed. What looks to be like a very low end of the market mandolin... possibly German, and yet the luthier choose to make a fluted back. Looks from the photos like it may be an ebony fingerboard.... but apart from that it looks cheap from the front

----------


## Bill Snyder

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/MANDOLINO-A-DOGHE-SCANNELLATE-DEI-PRIMI-900-mandolin_W0QQitemZ150131780128QQihZ005QQcatego
> 
> ryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> is a strange one indeed. What looks to be like a very low end of the market mandolin... possibly German, and yet the luthier choose to make a fluted back. Looks from the photos like it may be an ebony fingerboard.... but apart from that it looks cheap from the front


What bothers me about that mandolin is the soundhole is off center.

----------


## Jim Garber

Not alone in that... check out this Cristofaro. Makes me very nervous.  

Jim

----------


## brunello97

As the artist Donald Judd wrote in his book "Architektur":

'Symmetry is good. Asymmetry is bad.'

And he walked the walk.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

An interesting, rather plain no-name. The most fascinating part is the tuners. One-piece cover plate on the front with spool buttons.

Jim

----------


## Fliss

Something doesn't look right to me about this De Meglio - what do you folks think about the angle of the headstock?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws....ddle:uk #

The date is 1895 - could it just be an early variation?

Fliss

----------


## Bob A

I've not seen one with the string trees on the peghead before; I think the odd look is due to that arrangement (which looks original to the instrumenta). Perhaps the modification did not work as well as intended, and was changed for later examples.

I think a price in excess of 500 US is a little steep for De Meglio, but I'm no expert on the model.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Just a proof that there's nothing new in the world: this is precisely the same invention as Leo Fender was to have fifty-odd years later and is why a Stratocaster has a headstock that is in a straight line with the neck and a Les Paul has an angle backward. Putting string trees on the headstock means you don't need to angle the headstock back from the neck. This in turn makes headstock construction easier and cheaper: you can use a single straight piece of wood for neck and head, whereas with an angled headstock you either need a joint (a potential week point) or carve it out of a much larger piece of wood (more expensive and more work). The de Meglio looks odd because of the straight line of neck and head.

The price is about right for one in perfect condition, although few Ebay bowlbacks are.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Forgive me if this is a repost but this Vinaccia looks pretty fabulous. The label looks hand-lettered, which I suppose if the date is correct would be the case.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....=1&rd=1

Even when the world was going Roccoco, these guys had style.

Mick

----------


## Bill Snyder

Here is a no name at shopgoodwill.com.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here is a no name at shopgoodwill.com.


Ah yes... a CDU (collective decorative ukulele). Looks like the top has sunk. This too shall pass.

Jim

----------


## Fliss

Another De Meglio on ebay UK, not in such good condition as the previous one.

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-Mandolin-Giovanni-de-Meglio-NAPLES-1897-NAPOLI_W0QQitemZ110141361297QQihZ001QQcate
goryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique....iewItem</a> 

Fliss

----------


## Martin Jonas

Ceccherini on Ebay UK. Very similar level of decoration to mine, and looking pretty clean, but there is a crack in the soundboard which isn't shown particularly well in any of the photos. Remarkably, this is the very first Ceccherini I've seen that does _not_ have an Alban Voigt label, but instead a label listing a different UK distributor. It still appears, though, that Umberto was working exclusively for the British market, presumably satisfying the demand created by Leopoldo Francia's wild Society success in 1890s London.

Martin

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello friends,

A nice Orchestra Model No. 3 Embergher has come up for auction at E-bay Germany.

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-mandolin-Luigi-Embergher-Tipo-No-3-1926_W0QQitemZ130125917642QQihZ003QQcategoryZ

21591QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebaypho  tohosting" target="_blank">Click this line to see it.</a>

It needs (as you can see) a good restorer but will, I am sure, eventually be again a very nice mandolin.


Best,

Alex

----------


## brunello97

> Another De Meglio on ebay UK, not in such good condition as the previous one.
> 
> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-Mandolin-Giovanni-de-Meglio-NAPLES-1897-NAPOLI_W0QQitemZ110141361297QQihZ001QQcate
> 
> goryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique....iewItem</a> #
> 
> Fliss


Relative to our recent conversation regarding shipping from the UK this seller says 18L shipping to the US. I'm properly perked.

I've never really understood English money. Farthing, quid, pence, sterling, etc. etc. 

Right off, I'm in for a tuppence on this, I think, maybe more. (Or is it schilling?)  Now, see what the Euro has wrought?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> A nice Orchestra Model No. 3 Embergher has come up for auction at E-bay Germany.


Oh, man, that is my dream Embergher. Hmmmm... I have 9 days to sell off a few things to afford the high price. Possible. It looks like the usual warped top etc. Could be worse.

I love the freetranslation.com translation of the first line of his description:


> Crazy instrument of the instruments farmer best perhaps of the romantic mandolin era, Luigi Embergher out of the year 1926.


Yes, old Luigi was certainly a great instrument farmer. I can just see him plowing the fields of those Emberghers...

Jim

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Originally Posted by  (Fliss @ June 21 2007, 13:36)
> 
> Another De Meglio on ebay UK, not in such good condition as the previous one.
> 
> 
> Right off, I'm in for a tuppence on this, I think, maybe more. (Or is it schilling?)  Now, see what the Euro has wrought?


Replacement bridge and replacement nut. Possibly more importantly, some reptile dentistry on the headstock joint. I'd be very concerned about the structural integrity of this one.

Martin

----------


## Fliss

> I've never really understood English money. #Farthing, quid, pence, sterling, etc. etc. ... Right off, #I'm in for a tuppence on this, I think, maybe more. (Or is it schilling?) # 
> Mick


Mick, It's easy really. A farthing is half of a ha'penny, which in turn is half of a penny. That's one of the old pennies, of course, not to be confused with "new pence". So your tuppence (if that's 2 new pence) is less than a shilling, which would be 5 pence (or 12 old pennies). And of course, 20 shillings makes up your quid.

Of course, if you're thinking you may go a little higher, you might wish to spend as much as half a crown - 12.5 new pence, the equivalent of five sixpences or 10 thru'penny bits.

How can anyone find that confusing??  

Fliss (showing my age... )

----------


## brunello97

> Martin


Yes, I had a hunch that mending plate was not standard equipment. I've got a few things coming down off the blocks later this summer and am looking around for worthwhile project pieces. #The purse is not deep, however.

Fliss, thanks for the economics primer. It's all very clear now, sort of. I guess the euro is pretty convenient, but #I miss some of the old continent money: Maria Montessori on the lira, that cool violin on the (5? 10?) mark. Charles Aznavour on the old 5 france note. At least Corbusier remains on the Swiss franc. #I think.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice looking Vega style 1 (I think) for anyone interested. Looks in good shape and there is a seller guarantee.

Jim

----------


## brunello97

Very nice, Jim. I thought you were hunting for a Vega? Are you serious about the Embergher? Is the fire-sale for real?

All this talk about MidAtlanticRim mandos lately has me eyeballing these Vegas anew. I'm doing a PseudoHynds on a low end Vega right how. Low end Vega? I'm old enough to remember the cars. Not the best association.

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

A couple of Calace mandolins a friend has found in Sydney.

The first is a very fancy one with a fluted back and the neck veneered in tortoiseshell

----------


## Graham McDonald

a closeup of the soundhole and pickguard

The previous pics seemed a bit dim. Had to take the pics with a flash

----------


## Graham McDonald

and the label which should establish the date?

----------


## Graham McDonald

and the second one, rather plainer

----------


## Graham McDonald

a closeup of the soundboard. I do like the scopp on the side of the fingerboard extension

----------


## Graham McDonald

and the label on this one. The owner is a guitar building friend in Sydney, Gerard Gilet and both will be for sale if anyone is interested (www.giletguitars.com)No personal interest, just a old mate

----------


## Jim Garber

Very cool find, Graham, esp the fluted one. I can't tell from the label but it looks like the photo cut off the date. OTOH sometimes these were left blank. I have a "hole-in-the-head" one from about 1920 or so. I would say both were from that era but perhaps one of the Calace experts here can chime in here. 

I did a little enhancement on the first photo so you can see a little more detail -- I hope you don't mind.

I love the ornamentation on this one and the tailpiece.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

> and the second one, rather plainer


My maple Calace is very similar and is from 1921. Same pickguard, different rosette and plainer headstock (no fishtail). Has the same "breathing holes" in the top.

Jim

----------


## Graham McDonald

The pics looked better on my Mac at home than they did here at work. I have bigger ones if anyone wants a better look

----------


## Jim Garber

> Very nice, Jim. I thought you were hunting for a Vega? Are you serious about the Embergher? Is the fire-sale for real?


I have a nice vega style 3 that is quite a nice player. The only vegas I would consider would be a Pettine or the elusive Abt models.

I can't be serious about the Embergher until I sell a few things in order to afford it. Even if I could put some up for sale I doubt I could sell them in the 7 days or so left before the end of this auction.

Then again, I would consider any offers...

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Here what looks like a German or eastern european mandocello. 

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Carlo M posted this vertigo-inducing shop tour video but it is nice to see his workshop with lots of nice fuzzy eye candy.

Jim

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## Eugene

I don't have much to say, Graham, other than "yummy."

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## Jim Garber

That tipo 3 Embergher is creeping up in price with bids from a few of our know Embergher folks. Just a few hours left.

UPDATE: with less than an hour to go, the bid is up to 4210.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

> Ceccherini on Ebay UK.


It went for 350 Pounds, which I think is pretty much the going rate for a Ceccherini in this condition (with a crack in the soundboard).

The Tipo 3 Embergher stayed at 4210 Euro -- I know Jim's and mine are much more modest, but I think we both got pretty lucky with our respective Tipo A.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Here is another Tipo A, fully restored by Kurt DeCorte of Belgium, who definitely knows what he is doing on these. My only question is why he eliminated the zero-fret and what effect that has on the overall sound and playability.

Yes, Martin, we sent good money on ours but got in under the wire, I think. They are definitely in demand.

Jim

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## Marc

Hi all,
I have a roman mandolin with the label 
'Rafaelle Valente - Roma'
Looks like an Embergher, fluted maple back, canted floating and radiused fretboard, very narrow nut etc. Inlaid Scratchplate is central rather than off to the side (which I think is like the earlier Ems.)Beautifully made although sound is a little thin. Anyone else come across this maker - I can't find anything about him? I'll take some photos if anyones interested...(of course you are, silly question! We wouldn't be posting here if we weren't!!)
thanks,
Marc

www.myspace.com/marcwoodward

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## Embergher

> Here is another Tipo A, fully restored by Kurt DeCorte of Belgium, who definitely knows what he is doing on these. My only question is why he eliminated the zero-fret and what effect that has on the overall sound and playability.
> 
> Jim


I've seen that type A in Kurt's workshop last week ... still without frets at that time, so I haven't been able to play it but as far as I could see he did a wonderful job on the restauration and copying the original fingerboard.

About the zero fret: Kurt _did not_ "eliminate" it #... this mandolin didn't originally have a zero fret, which is absolutely normal in this period.
A zero fret certainly has its advantages, but a well made nut without zero fret works fine as well and doesn't affect playability. 
As a player, one might consider asking for a zero fret when a nut or complete fingerboard really needs to be replaced, but - fortunately - Kurt is quite conscious about originality so he made an exact copy of the original fingerboard.

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## Jim Garber

Hi Ralf:
So did the Embergher workshop add the zero-fret later after 1909 (I don't have your book handy here)? Why did they do that?

Jim

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## Fliss

> Here is another Tipo A, fully restored by Kurt DeCorte of Belgium, who definitely knows what he is doing on these. 
> Jim


Just when I'd resolved not to buy another vintage mandolin  

But I think this will go too high to be a serious test of my resolve!

Fliss

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## Jim Garber

That one, Fliss, would be a good possibility if you have the money for it. Esp good since Kurt has restored it and Ralf has seen it meaning it could be a nice player. The downside is that it is known to those competitive wolves in the Embergher-buying public.

I am still waiting for that tipo 3 showing up at my local flea market. In the US these are still relatively unknown but less common than most also.

Jim

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## Embergher

> Hi Ralf:
> So did the Embergher workshop add the zero-fret later after 1909 (I don't have your book handy here)? Why did they do that?
> 
> Jim


There are quite a few advantages to a zero fret (the Embergher workshop even added a zero fret to some older instruments when they came back for repair or maintenance):

- a more accurate datum for the strings (faster production too)
- equal tone quality on both open strings and fretted notes
- no problems with strings getting stuck in a nut with slots that are just slightly too narrow, or buzz problems when the slots are just slightly too wide.
- when the zero fret wears (if it wears at all) you simply replace it. Making a new nut (and nuts without zero fret do wear!) takes much more time (= much more expensive)
- ...

But as I said ... a very accurately made nut without zero fret _can_ of course work fine ... it's just less practical, less durable, and often less accurate.

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## Martin Jonas

At the current price of 25 Pounds with 12 hours to go, this de Meglio clone looks a good deal. Of course, some clones are closer to the real thing than others and it's difficult to say whether this is one of the coarse ones or not.

That's actuall cheaper than this Fratelli Frati, which looks like somebody decided the soundhole was too small and cut it a bit larger...

A rather strikingly decorated Puglisi, with a strangely thin fretboard extension. Made in 1917, in the middle of World War I.

This Loveri might also be quite nice. Very similar to one that passed through my hands a couple of years ago and was a thoroughly delightful instrument.

Dave Hynds has a de Meglio clone, too, this Carlo Rinaldi. I own one of these (on permanent loan to a friend who plays it in a rock band!) and it's a raucous little beast.

Martin

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## Fliss

> That one, Fliss, would be a good possibility if you have the money for it.


Jim, you're no help at all   What makes it particularly tempting is, as with the one Ralf was selling, that it comes from a reputable source and won't need any work doing.

However, I am going to have to stick to my resolve on this, tempting though it is. I love the tone of my Calace, and I need to stick with that one for a while and give it a fair chance before deciding whether it will be my keeper or not.

Fliss

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## Bob A

Well, I love the tone of Calace instruments too, but you may find that a variety of instruments provides you with a broad tonal palette. And backup instruments always come in handy. You might break a string, for example. And of course you'll find economies of scale; strings last much longer if you rotate among mandolins. 

If you find yourself short of excuses, feel free to consult this board - it's why we're here (and broke).

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## Fliss

> If you find yourself short of excuses, feel free to consult this board - it's why we're here (and broke).


   Thanks Bob!

Fliss

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## JeffD

Seen this one? Look at 54M. Its a Ferrari.

I just always wanted a sticker on my case that said: "My other mandolin is a Ferrari."


http://www.hapmoore.com/images/july0...struments.html

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## Fliss

After never having seen a Lanfranco mandolin before I recently had one pass briefly through my hands, there are now two on e-bay, one virtually identical to the one I had but if anything in even better condition, the other a little less decorated and definitely not such good condition.

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-Bowl-Back-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ260135844316QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1  0179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewIt

em" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique....iewItem</a> 

(Edit - sorry I can't seem to get the link to work but it's Item number: 260135844316 on ebay UK)

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-Bowl-Mandolin-Achille-Lanfran-Zigli-Naples-a-f_W0QQitemZ250139368815QQihZ015QQcate




goryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique....iewItem</a> 

Also yet another De Meglio, in need of some TLC:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gav-Giovanni-De-Meglio-E-Figlio-Naples-1896-Signed_W0QQitemZ110146408191QQihZ001QQcategory




Z10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gav-Gio....iewItem</a>

And a very decorative Il Globo:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OLD-IL-GLOBO-ITALIAN-ROUNDBACK-MANDOLIN_W0QQitemZ200126239465QQihZ010QQcategoryZ1  0179QQrdZ




1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OLD-IL-....iewItem</a> #

Fliss

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## Jim Garber

Here is that first Lafranco

And, while we are at it, a hole-in-the-head Calace (undetermined age -- 1920s?) from Australia. This one is esp interesting with a small ball of ivory in the hole.

Jim

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## Fliss

Thanks Jim. 

That Calace looks nice, I must say.

Here's a curiosity on ebay UK, billed as "Sistema De meglio" and it even says that on the label, but with nothing in common with the De Meglio system as far as i can see:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OLD-CASED-ITALIAN-NAPOLI-MANDOLIN-in-need-of-repair_W0QQitemZ120139448937QQihZ002QQcategor
yZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OLD-CAS....iewItem</a> 

Fliss

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## brunello97

Fliss,

I'm never too clear on my prepositional usification (in any language) but maybe this might be a bit of clever marketing implying simply "Better (or Best) System" as well as a reference to the de Meglio operation. 

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

Interesting look on this German bowlback. No cant, and a small longitudinal soundhole together with an elegant-looking slender headstock. I wonder whether this may actually be a mandola -- there is no info on scale length.

1963 Calace.

This De Meglio needs a new bridge, but looks OK otherwise (although the poor photos may hide some sins).

Martin

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## dave17120

"Interesting look on this German bowlback."

It would appear to be 78cms long, so you were right Martin.
Dave

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## Jim Garber

> Interesting look on this German bowlback. No cant,


I don't know how you can tell that there is no cant from those pics. It look like it might have a subtle one.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Hmmm... Maybe. To me it just looks like a flat board, but that can admittedly be difficult to tell on a plan view. I also think that the cant, if there is one, should be included on the close-up aroudn the brand stamp and I can't see it there either.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

An (alleged) Vinaccia from another seller in Uruguay. I am not so sure that this is even a Vinaccia since the seller only shows a fragmented label saying Fratelli. It is a fluted bowled instrument tho, obviously from Naples. 

Jim

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## dave17120

So what are the chances that the head on this de Meglio is original?? Dave # 
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-Mandolin-Giovanni-de-Meglio-NAPLES-1897-NAPOLI_W0QQitemZ120140958706QQihZ002QQcate
goryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here</a>

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## Martin Jonas

Here is a Giuseppe Vinaccia. #No bids at 100 Pounds with under two days to go. #Still, I expect this one to go up, even if it's a no-feedback seller. #My own Giuseppe Vinaccia is a very nice instrument. #Somewhat quiet, but exceptionally mellow and subtle tone, almost like a nylon-strung instrument. #This one looks slightly fancier, and (unusually for any Vinaccia) has a slotted headstock. #Seeing the label would probably be handy.

Another Calace-esque Puglisi. Didn't we have a virtually identical one a few weeks ago?

This German bowlback is vaguely Embergher-esque and looks well-made, but doesn't come close to matching the subtle elegance of the Embergher recurve.

Martin

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## JeffD

> Another Calace-esque Puglisi. #Didn't we have a virtually identical one a few weeks ago?


What is that mark below the bridge on the treble side?

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## Martin Jonas

> Originally Posted by  (martinjonas @ July 16 2007, 09:09)
> 
> Another Calace-esque Puglisi. Didn't we have a virtually identical one a few weeks ago?
> 
> 
> What is that mark below the bridge on the treble side?


Just a brand mark. Quite common in Italian (and German) bowlbacks.

And yes, we did have it a couple of weeks ago 
here: no bids at 169 Pounds.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

I somebody is looking for a high-quality bowlback (octave) mandola, and is quick off the mark, here is a Herwiga Solist at 245 Euro with under one hour to go. I've never played one, but these "onion" Herwigas have a fabulous reputation!

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

> Here is a Giuseppe Vinaccia. #No bids at 100 Pounds with under two days to go. #Still, I expect this one to go up, even if it's a no-feedback seller. #My own Giuseppe Vinaccia is a very nice instrument. #Somewhat quiet, but exceptionally mellow and subtle tone, almost like a nylon-strung instrument. #This one looks slightly fancier, and (unusually for any Vinaccia) has a slotted headstock. #Seeing the label would probably be handy.


Ooomph! I think I need to reassess my thoughts on the value of my Giuseppe Vinaccia. Even with a no-feedback seller, and with a never-fulfilled promise of additional photographs to come, this one sold for 1220 Pounds (around $2500) after a flurry of last-minute bids.

Martin

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## brunello97

Sit on your stock, Martin. This is very good for you (and others.) What was it last year? Prada, Guicci? that was hanging in CDeGaulle? The bowlback thing may be riding deep, deep. 

Y'all who got in early on these bowlback IPOs should be justifiably able to gloat a bit. (At least I hope the values hold up for you.) All I have is a pair of pretty modest Italian bowls but they do sound so, so good. I can only imagine the rarified air that you guys are able to fly in. It must be very nice.

These are great instruments to track along on the ebay.

Mick

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## Bob A

Don't give up hope, Mick. Bargains abound. (I'd be tempted on the Puglisi, myself, if it didn't need repair and thr shipping weren't so high. And if I weren't already buried beneath too many bowlbacks.)

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## dave17120

Anyone spotted this Vinaccia, 9 hours left if you have a spare £3,000 or so......
Dave
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MANDOLINE-Italienne-annee-1770-ANTONIUS-VINACCIA_W0QQitemZ290138100017QQihZ019QQcategoryZ1
04485QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Vinaccia</a>

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## Bill Snyder

Here is a Midland eight string, bowlback "ukulele" at Shopgoodwill.com.

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## Martin Jonas

Here is potentially a great bargain, if you act quickly in the next few hours: this is almost certainly a Ceccherini with its label missing. Everything except the lack of a label shouts Ceccherini, and unlike de Meglio, I don't think there were any copyists of his work. Very clean, too, and apart from a missing string spacer on the bridge, I can't see much wrong with it. No mention of a double top, but I think I can just make it out in one of the photos (I have no doubt it's there, anyway).

This, on the other hand, would appear to be a particularly bold attempt at appropriating the venerable name of Vinaccia for an unrelated mandolin. What on earth is that bridge? And a raised pickguard on a bowlback looks just plain wrong!

A very ornate de Meglio. Loks in very good condition, but I always find that putting too much inlay on detracts from the elegance of the de Meglio design.

Third time around for the Puglisi, now down to 140 Pounds.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

After playing one of Lorenzo Lippi's Embergher clones at the Het Consort concert in New York last Thursday, I contacted him and he send me some wonderful pictures of that same instrument and of a series 1 mandolin. I offered to post them on the Post a Picture thread for your enjoyment.

Jim

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## Fliss

Just cropped up on E-bay UK, a Ceccherini in need of some tlc. The double top shows clearly in one of the photos:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fine-Umberto-Ceccherini-Bowl-back-Napoli-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ150145617255QQihZ005QQcategoryZ
10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fine-Um....iewItem</a> 

Fliss

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## Martin Jonas

Ouch. Yes, that one is very similar to my main one, but has had an immeasurably harder life.

Martin

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## Bob A

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/EARLY-6-COURSE-MANDOLIN-LUTE-1600s-1700s-A-MUST-SEE_W0QQitemZ120144967198QQihZ002QQcategor
yZ359QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">A very interesting very old instrument</a>, in sad but presumably restorable condition.

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## etbarbaric

Well... they say anything is restorable if the proper amount of cash is applied.... This one appears to be missing pieces though...

In spite of the seller's notion that it "looks like it could date back as early as the 1500s"... this is actually a crunched Mandolino Genovese from the 1700s. Tuned like an octave guitar, wire strung, movable bridge, played with a plectrum. Being a sucker for hard luck cases, I have thrown my hat into the ring. We'll see what happens...

Eric

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## Eugene

Good luck (assuming you want such wishes)! The Genovese, while interesting, has never held much lure for me...and I like guitars! It just has so little dedicated repertoire. That marquetry neck veneer is pretty zippy.

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## Jim Garber

That is the same seller who had that $20,000 museum piece that he kept on listing. I see him at the local flea market from time to time. Anyone recognize that seal? 



Looks like an undersea monster.

Jim

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## Bob A

"Looks like an undersea monster."

The Mark of Cthulhu?

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## Jim Garber

1905 Embergher Tipo 3

How high can these go? It is getting scary.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

I'm pretty sure we've seen this one before: I recognise that poorly repaired crack on the treble side of the bridge.

The same seller has an exceptionally ugly Calace for even more money, and one by a Calace pupil for a fantasy amount. He still has to find somebody to actually pay these prices, though.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

<a href="http://http://cgi.ebay.com/Early-19th-Century-Ambrosio-Quartino-Italian-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ110154931946QQihZ001QQcateg
oryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">di Bartolomeo</a>Lombard style mandolino.

Jim

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## Rhombuss

> I'm pretty sure we've seen this one before: I recognise that poorly repaired crack on the treble side of the bridge.
> 
> The same seller has an exceptionally ugly Calace for even more money, and one by a Calace pupil for a fantasy amount. He still has to find somebody to actually pay these prices, though.
> 
> Martin


Personally, a mandolin would need an insanely intricate and aesthetically pleasing pickguard inlay in order to detract from the fact that is has a D-hole. Surprisingly though, the rotated D-hole on the Calace-pupil mandolin doesn't look nearly as bad.

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## Bob A

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/FRETELLY-VINACCIA-19TH-c-NAPOLI-MANDOLIN-MANDOLINO_W0QQitemZ230157335592QQihZ013QQcategory
Z10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's</a> a Fratelli Vinaccia with scalloped ribs and a few issues. So far pretty cheap.

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## Martin Jonas

That (alleged) Vinaccia was offered by the same seller a few weeks ago here. Although it supposedly sold, somehting must have gone wrong with the sale. Pretty cheap price last time, I presume because bidders were not at all convinced that this is actually a Vinaccia: the only readable words on the label are "Fratelli" and "Napoli".

Martin

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## Elliot Luber

Hey, that's an interesting mustache headstock. What year was that?

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## Jim Garber

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/FRETELLY-VINACCIA-19TH-c-NAPOLI-MANDOLIN-MANDOLINO_W0QQitemZ230157335592QQihZ013QQcategory
> 
> Z10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's</a> a Fratelli Vinaccia with scalloped ribs and a few issues. So far pretty cheap.


Also, note carefully that tho the origin of the seller is indicated as Miami the shipping is $140 to the US which means likley that it is a seller in South America (my guess) which prob also kept a few bidders away.

Jim

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## Neil Gladd

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/FRETELLY-VINACCIA-19TH-c-NAPOLI-MANDOLIN-MANDOLINO_W0QQitemZ230157335592QQihZ013QQcategory
> 
> 
> Z10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's</a> a Fratelli Vinaccia with scalloped ribs and a few issues. So far pretty cheap.


One issue would be that it's not from the 19th century, as claimed. You can see from the barely present label that the year starts with 191.

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## Jim Garber

Here is a mistakenly attributed NOT Martin Style 0 mandolin. I am not sure where the seller got the idea that it was made by Martin. It looks like no Martin I have ever seen.

Jim

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## Bill Snyder

The seller has 0 feedback.

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## Jim Garber

I can't hold the zero feedback against the seller (you have to start somewhere) but I can his/her ignorance. I did email this person to ask where they see any indication of Martin. I feel bad for the sole bidder who has bid so high for what looks like a lowgrade European instrument.

Jim

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## Bob A

Zero feedback, and the sole bidder has bid twice to make sure no one beats his time for this prize. Hope the tailpiece stays on until the auction is over.

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## Jim Garber

Here is one certainly of note. At Mandolin Bros: Built by John D'Angelico and priced accordingly. A rather plain one tho.




> We will assign it an in-house serial number if ISI-1763, and it comes with a newer hard shell case. John D'Angelico worked as a teenager with his uncle Chianni in a manufacturing shop on Kenmare Street. By 1930 he had learned enough to become shop foreman and so he left the employ of his esteemed uncle and became a profoundly important independent builder. In these earliest years he was, evidently, still being commissioned to make roundbelly mandolins, such as this one. The current owner says that his teacher, a man named Mr. Terregrosso, who lived, according to John D'Angelico's log book, at 29 Oak Street, purchased this for his student, who lived at that time in Brooklyn. The instrument has had one actual owner, if you don't count a teacher purchasing it for his student. It is a beautiful piece, having a wide-grained spruce top that may be Adirondack, an inlaid tortoise shell (or celluloid) pickguard measuring 5 7/16th" in width, 2 ¼" in height, itself inlaid with a nearly equally large flower at center with 2 wreath-type scrolls on each side. The oval soundhole is decorated with a black-ivoroid-black outer ring and an inner ring of black-ivoroid. It has a black headstock overlay with no logo, a very early version of a pediment with a celluloid pineapple at the top center of the peghead, and an internal large paper label that reads "Built by John D'Angelico, Guaranteed, No. (oblit), New York." There was a crack on the face on the treble side of the neck adjacent to the bottom of the unbound ebony fretboard, repaired by our head of repair, and Dedicated DAngelicophile, Leroy Aiello. The fingerboard measures 1 1/16th" at the nut and has 18 full size frets plus two abbreviated ones on the extension. There are 10 frets up to the body joint, and 7 mother of pearl dotmarkers in 5 positions. The mandolin shows normal signs of playing wear including light scratches and dings. The bridge is vertically challenged - there is no chance of now lowering the action at the bridge. The playing action remains high. The mandolin has a simple scalloped slide-on tailpiece cover, black-ivoroid-black top purfling with ivoroid outermost. The back has 23 ribs including the two large ones on each side, each curved rib of Brazilian rosewood with maple separating strips. There are some ribs on the back on the bass bottom side that are beginning to shift. There is nothing we can do about the action and so we are offering it as just what it is  a statement of musical instrument history that excites and electrifies any one who loves the work of New York Citys finest luthier. And so this Neapolitan mandolin is being offered to you "as is. It nevertheless sounds great, is indescribably beautiful, and deserves to be worshipped from afar. Were asking $10,310 discount price, $10,000 cash discount price.




Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Most of us have seen the early 20th century German guitar lutes around, which flood Ebay Germany at any one time. Much rarer, here is a mandolin of the same type, with the same carved soundhole rose and the fixed bridge that the guitar lutes have. I guess this makes it fairly similar in construction to a Brescian or Lombard mandolin, but made for steel strings. The opening bid is rather high, though, and he has already got a bidder willing to pay it.

Not a mandolin, but while we're on the topic of German guitar lutes, here is a harp guitar lute. Photo is too poor to determine the string configuration (5 fretted, plus eight free, possibly?), but it looks a bit wild.

Back to proper mandolins: two 1950s Calaces from the same seller here and here.

This one could well be a very nice instrument: a fluted luthier-made Japanese bowlback from the 1970s.

Martin

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## Neil Gladd

I think the PRICE of the D'Angelico mandolin is more of note than the instrument itself. $10,000 for "as is!!!"

The German Lute-Mandolin is pretty cool, though.

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## Bob A

Just a note to announce and celebrate the arrival/return of my Monzino from its repair/resto at the capable hands of J DeCava. Not to mention tpiece provided by the inestimable Jim Garber.

The bowl is huge. The sound is unlike other bowlbacks, doubtless due to the bowl. SOMEday I'll figure out how to work these digital things, perhaps, and you can see what I mean.

Anyway, thanks yet again to Jim G for all his help on this project. Meanwhile I must go and play the thing.

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## Jim Garber

Bob: You must post some pics of this beauty. If you can't maybe I need to come down and see and take some myself.

Jim

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## Bob A

You're of course welcome any time, Jim.

Meanwhile, I've noticed that the scale on this bowlback is about 14"; it seemed "tight" when I tuned it up to pitch, and the action was stiff. Sounded good, though, especially high on the e string.

I've detuned it a half step, and the action is more manageable, the sound still good. I'm rather surprised at the long scale; anyone out there familiar with bowlbacks with such a feature?

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## etbarbaric

Hmmm... big bowl... long neck... small mandola?

:-)

Eric

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## Martin Jonas

Here is a fancy and very clean de Meglio.

Nice Herwiga Solist.

Martin

----------


## Bill Snyder

Here is a Hans Hauser at shopgoodwill.com. Does anyone know anything about these. A search of the web did not yield much information. I have placed a low bid on the mandolin and I am wondering if it would be bidding much over $50.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here is a Hans Hauser at shopgoodwill.com. Does anyone know anything about these. A search of the web did not yield much information. I have placed a low bid on the mandolin and I am wondering if it would be bidding much over $50.


It looks like one made in eastern Europe, perhaps Romania? I don't think it is a very high quality one but it may be a decent playable mandolin.

Jim

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## Bob A

Hmmm . . . 355mm scale (~14"). Mandola? I dunno. Seems a little short, but I've never seen or measured a bowlback mandola.

I do have a set of Dogal mandola strings, but I hate to burn a new set of Lenzners. Also the thing was just set up with the Lenzner strings, nut presumably filed to fit, etc. What are the odds that it was intended as a mandola, do you think?

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## etbarbaric

Hi Bob,

Odds? Pretty low, I suppose. That would be a pretty short mandola. Then again, it sounds like a pretty big mandolin... I'm no mandola expert though, so perhaps I should stop my typing.... and let someone more qualified jump in.

Eric

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## Bob A

Where's the sport in that, Eric?

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## oggiesnr

> Here is a fancy and very clean de Meglio.
> 
> Martin


It fetched £370 which was more than a mild attack of MAS would allow me to spend right now # 

All the best

Steve

----------


## Bob A

That's serious money for a De Meglio, but then it's the nicest example I've seen.

----------


## JeffD

Seen anything like this before?

http://www.trocadero.com/stores/oneo.../en7store.html

http://www.trocadero.com/stores/oneo.../en3store.html

----------


## Bob A

Reminiscent of a Merrill, but the abover looks to be all-aluminum. It might be interesting, but then again . . . 

If it's inexpensive it'd be an interesting item for the collection. Never seen one like it before, but I'd bet a dollar Jim Garber has some pics already.

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Seen anything like this before?


Yes, a Hutchins mandolin will show up on eBay every now and then and they've been discussed here whenever they do. I've even bid on them (and lost). I guess if you want a waterproof mandolin, this is the way to go until Tom Mix comes out with a carbon fiber bowlback. I really want one of the Merrills that Bob mentioned, though. They had an aluminum back with a wood soundboard.

----------


## etbarbaric

Interesting, but I think it needs a heart.

:-)

----------


## Jim Garber

Wonderful case for that Hutchins, tho. Might be worth it at that price. 

Jim

----------


## JeffD

Think it would sound kind of tinny.  

Actually I am curious, what kind of sound it would have.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Think it would sound kind of tinny.  
> 
> Actually I am curious, what kind of sound it would have.


More aluminummy than tinny.

I met a guy who played an aluminum violin -- sounded pretty decent tho prob better for the old time country music he was playing than for classical.

I had a Merrill one time pre my bowlback obsession. Merrill'd generally have aluminum bowls but wooden soundboards. 

Jim

----------


## jasona

Is this one a Japanese copy of a Calace? I have to admit, it has me intrigued as a possible entree point into the LOotB...

----------


## Fliss

> Is this one a Japanese copy of a Calace? I have to admit, it has me intrigued as a possible entree point into the LOotB...


It looks like it might be; possibly Suzuki or Ibanez, something like that. #I doubt the seller's claim about it being "very unique" though, even if you could have degrees of uniqueness! #Looks nice; if you like it and it doesn't go too high, why not go for it? #

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

This Embergher 5 bis offered by Carlo M certainly qualifies for a bowlback of note. I am sure the price is astronomical. My guess is 5 figures.

Jim

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## Bob A

I've never understood the reluctance to post a price. Seems shady to me, but maybe it's a cultural thing? Most of the Euro websites are very shy regarding open pricing. One can only assume they are either fishing, or too embarassed at appearing greedy.

Perhaps a little strong, but it is intensely annoying.

----------


## oggiesnr

I agree, I hate "POA". To me it implies "let's see how big your pockets are? or Is there a mug to fleece out there?" Any seller knows what they're looking for and should have the guts to tell it.

The equivilent is E-bay auctions that start at almost nothing but the reserve is somewhere high up there. I don't bother with them anymore. I'd much rather someone say "This is the minimum I'll accept for this" and set a fair starting price and take it from there.

All the best

Steve

----------


## Neil Gladd

> The equivilent is E-bay auctions that start at almost nothing but the reserve is somewhere high up there. I don't bother with them anymore. I'd much rather someone say "This is the minimum I'll accept for this" and set a fair starting price and take it from there.


I'm with you. I once saw an eBay auction with a $5 starting price and a $5000 reserve!!! When I sell on eBay, there is no reserve, and the starting price is the minimum I will sell it for, which is why I get offended by offers of half the minimum! I am about to put a couple instruments up, but nothing that merits a listing in this thread.

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## Jim Garber

> I've never understood the reluctance to post a price. Seems shady to me, but maybe it's a cultural thing? Most of the Euro websites are very shy regarding open pricing. One can only assume they are either fishing, or too embarassed at appearing greedy.
> 
> Perhaps a little strong, but it is intensely annoying.


You are right, Bob. Most of the Euro-dealers do not post a price and you have to inquire. I guess it make it easier if they don't post and then see a higher result on eBay or std auctions. I know that many of these bowlbacks stick around on these places for some time. 

I haven't heard anything from Carlo yet.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a "hole-in-the-head" Calace on craigslist. 

Jim

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## Bob A

So we're all agreed that failing to quote a price is the functional equivalent of oriental carpet shopping in Tangier, then. Only it's so much more pleasant to hang around a carpet shop and swill teal all afternoon while playing games with the proprietor; and after all, the rug is Right There, not 2500 miles away in the hands of someone whom you've never met, whom no one you know has ever met, and who may send you a mandolin after you wire him thousands of dollars.

Let me know if you get a reply from CM. He's never responded to my requests; I guess I'm insufficiently Japanese.

Nice Calace there, and cheaper than my hole-in-the-head. Hope it's playable; wish it were maple. I love maple bowls.

----------


## Matt Vuksinich

Re: Carlo in Naples,
I feel compelled to come to his defense. I actually purchased an Embergher Orchestra C from him about a year ago, and have no serious complaints. Yes, the fingerboard extension needed to be replaced by my luthier, and a few of the higher frets needed to be redressed, and it took over a month before he shipped it out--BUT I feel he IS honest and reliable. I, too, have been frustrated by sites such as his which don't list the prices . . . .but at least now you've heard from someone who HAS wired thousands of dollars to his overseas account, AND received a mandolin in return!

----------


## etbarbaric

Just a word of warning. In my experience, I have seen the same instrument have *different* prices applied to customers in different parts of the world by some of the Italian merchants. Being insuffiently Japanese may be one thing, but I have also seen higher prices specifically offered to American customers. Perhaps some notion of what the market will bear? Lucky us. Caveat emptor... 

Eric

----------


## oggiesnr

I'm in the UK (well someone has to be ). We seem to have two big issues, one is POA, the other is vendors assuming we're a cash cow. If I buy a US made mando I can expect to pay in pounds what you would pay in dollars. Now at nearly two dollars to a pound, even allowing for shipping and import duty (20% inc VAT) that seems excessive. If I try to buy direct from the USA either the deal with the manufacturer won't allow exports to europe or the shipping is so high as to make it excessive. As I import bits for my business from the USA I know that a quote of $350 to ship a mando is OTT.

All the best

Steve

----------


## Jim Garber

Steve:
I had the same problem only in reverse. After my Embergher was repaired the cheapest quote the luthier could get for shipping was over $200 from the UK to New York. Luckily my brother-in-law was traveling there and drove over and picked it up for me.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Yeah, buying across the Pond is a pain. Frequently the seller wants money wired, which is not cheap. The UK is hellacious in terms of postage. I bought 3 books from a dealer there, got a good price (she takes paypal) and paid more for the postage than for the books. 

I've purchased musical instruments and had them airmailed, and it's taken a couple months to receive the thing. Don't ask me about the so-called "signed for" service, which supposewdly offers parcel tracking. Totally useless. Still, sometimes the process is worth all the aggro.

Regarding Carlo: Mattrat, have you ever played any of the mandolins Carlo makes? We here have all seen the pics, but no one has come forward with an in-hand evaluation. (Glad you stood up for the man; nice to know he's got a satisfied customer).

----------


## RSW

I've played a few (tried a few), better than modern Calace, but far from the refinement of Dan's (Larson) instruments (or several other contemporary makers). I found them heavily built (like modern Calace mandolins). Still, I would encourage this maker and somehow find a way to lighten the box. Action was also a bit stiff for my taste.

----------


## Jim Garber

Richard:
Are you referring to Carlo Mazzacarra's mandolins? I wasn't quite sure.

Jim

----------


## RSW

Yep...

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## Jim Garber

The only contemporary makers of bowlbacks I have seen in person have been Pandinis (quite a few), Victor's and one other recent Calace and Lorenzo Lippi's octave at the Het Consort concert in New York. I did play one of Richard's Larsons but I think that was early on and my ear for bowlbacks was not quite in tune yet to make any sort of judgement.

So far Sr. Lippi's looks pretty promising to me tho I do enjoy playing my Pandini, I can see where the Embergher style and sound has some appeal.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

This seller has an extremely optimistic starting price for this <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/rare-1914-Luigi-Embergher-typo-B-Mandolin-Collectable_W0QQitemZ140156284578QQihZ004QQcateg
oryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Embergher Tipo B</a>. Was this one on ebay and mentioned here before?

Jim

----------


## Matt Vuksinich

Re eBay Embergher offering:

Nice case, though. Mine didn't come with one (albeit at much lower price, though for a fancier model)--did yours, Jim?

In all seriousness, though, I gotta say that there is something about the Embergher mystique which still eludes me.  I'm assuming mine is a fine instrument, but I must admit, I prefer playing my simpler Calace of similar provenance. However, I WAS impressed a few months ago when someone else played it AT me . . . .perhaps that's the real issue, as previously discussed on other threads here.

And, Bob A, no, I've never had the privilege of seeing, much less playing, any of Carlo M's own instruments. Richard Walz's post was the first review of them I've ever seen. A bit of a drag: I suspect it's unlikely many of us will ever get to see Sr. Lippi's creations, either.

Matt

----------


## Jim Garber

I hope that the Het Consort will come to your town soon. I think they had a good and lucrative(?) tour here in the northeast. It is amazing to see and hear an orchestra of primarily Emberghers.

Jim

----------


## Bob A

Emberghers are nice mandolins if you can cope with the narrow fretboard. I suspect the sometimes ridiculous prices are due to relative rarity, though they seem to be peeking out of the woodwork more frequently lately. Construction and intonation are impeccable; careful attention to fine points of design is noteworthy, for example the fretboard that is thicker on the bass side.

Mattrat hit it in one with the comment about being impressed on the receiving end; like the best violins, they can project very well, and carry pianissimo to the back of the hall. This sort of quality separates the sheep from the goats, though whether it is characteristic of the lower-end models like the Tipo B in question is an area I can't speak to. 

This level of capability is not something everyone needs, or perhaps even wants. I only need to fill a living room, not a concert hall; those few who've heard me might object to even that much carrying power.

----------


## Jim Garber

I was impressed more by the sweetness of tone that the able players of HC produced on their Emberghers. Also the clarity of tone which might also contribute to the projection.

The narrowness of the fretboard doesn't bother me on mine tho I still need to tweak the action to get rid of the buzzing on the higher two courses.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Something for your entertainment: a genuine R. Calace Plectrum, tho frankly it looks more like one of his toenails.  

Jim

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## Neil Gladd

Nice that the shipping is free, considering the low reserve of $300 FOR AN UNUSABLE PICK!!!

----------


## brunello97

Checking my numismatic guide, I think the penny that comes along with it is very valuable. It might be the sleeper in this deal. 

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

This looks like it might be a nice mandolin: made in 1964 by a German luthier and sold then for DM400 (quite a lot of money in 1964!). D-shaped soundhole, though.

I think we may have seen this plain maple bowl Salsedo before. The maker has a decent reputation, but this price may just be a bit too high.

This de Meglio looks quite nice. It shows that there was indeed a plainer model than the 1A, A and B models (all of which have identical inlay): this one is "Model 1" and has no scratchplate inlay at all.

A lot cheaper at the moment but missing the bridge and the string downholder, here is a Model 1A. I think this may have been refinished.

Finally, this one is labelled "Michele Meglio", who I suspect has nothing whatsoever to do with the de Meglio family other than building clones of their mandolins. If so, the asking price is too high.

Martin

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Good evening Martinjonas,

Michele was a son of Giovanni De Meglio who worked in the De Meglio atelier in Naples. 

Cheers,

Alex

----------


## Martin Jonas

Fair enough -- thanks, Alex. My suspicion was based on the fact that the label says "Michele Meglio", not "Michele de Meglio".

Martin

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Your welcome Martin, 

And thanks for pointing out these De Meglio atelier mandolins on eBay. They are really nice sounding and very solid instruments. 

Best,

Alex

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## Jim Garber

> Finally, this one is labelled "Michele Meglio", who I suspect has nothing whatsoever to do with the de Meglio family other than building clones of their mandolins. If so, the asking price is too high.


The bridge is positioned rather suspiciously also. It sounds like this guy is a mandolin player -- he has another de Meglio he says -- so he should know better, I would think. I wonder if the neck needs to be reset.

Jim

----------


## Fliss

The more I look at that Michele Meglio the more I spot things that don't look quite right. #What do you folks think of the tailpiece? #It also looks as if at least one tuning button has been replaced with one that doesn't match? #And actually, is that bridge original?

Martin, btw I think you're right about that Salsedo, I think we've certainly seen a Salsedo crop up twice at exctly that price recently.

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

Mandolin by Michele Celentano on craigslist SF. This one was for sale a few months ago for $1200 (more reasonable price) but advertised as a Vinaccia. After some correspondence I found out that it was not a Vinaccia.

----------


## brunello97

A Celentano from SF? I wonder what its life-story is ala Red Violin, Accordion Diaries....


Mick

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## Bob A

The only other Celentano I've ever seen was offered by Lark Street Music a few years ago. That one had scalloped ribs and was fairly fancy.

Checking their site I found #this splendidly be-pearled beauty.

Alas, I can't get it to link properly. Click on mandolins and open the A. Grauso image. Put your shades on first.

----------


## etbarbaric

> Mandolin by Michele Celentano on craigslist SF.


Aha! I know that image. That mandolin was offered for sale years ago at one of the bigger houses (Gruhn's, I think). At that time it was indeed advertised as a Vinaccia. For what its worth, I called, and one of the employees did an in-hand description for me. They claimed that it didn't sound very good or play well (they were probably used to F-5s)... and I reluctantly let it go. I have wondered about that instrument ever since, as it didn't match any Vinaccias in my memory.

As for the Celentano that was once at Lark Street, I know that one too! It was definitely a different instrument. In fact, I had it shipped to me for in-hand approval (he also wanted $1,200.. as I recall). I ended up sending it back as it seemed to have an incongruous (later?) fretboard, and it wasn't generally playable. Its been a while... forgive my lack of specifics... but it had issues.

It is ultimately a small world... 

Best,

Eric

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## Jim Garber

Speaking of Lark Street, I love this artistic Embergher they have listed in their gallery (tho it looks like it had a non-original tailpiece and a chopped-off fretboard:

[img]http://www.larkstreetmusic.com/images/*Embergher.jpg[/img]

And attached is the Celentano.

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## etbarbaric

Yup, that's her. #The very plain rosewood fretboard just didn't seem to match the rest of the instrument. #I remember being quite taken with the photos, and somewhat shocked in person. It was there a long time... I presume someone finally bought it.

Eric

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## Jim Garber

Here is another Celentano from eBay earlier this year.

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## Fliss

An interesting old (1914) Calace has just cropped up on ebay:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Old-Italy-Mandolin-Calace-Alte-ital-Mandoline_W0QQitemZ330168383985QQihZ014QQcategoryZ  1017

9QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Old-Ita....iewItem</a> 

It's very plain, and the top looks a bit rough, but I kind of like it. #The description is in German, though - Martin, please can you translate?

Fliss

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## Martin Jonas

Strange that it's listed with bids in Pounds Sterling, but a German item description. As this may well put off many bidders, it could end up a bargain. The payment options listed on Ebay UK are postal order and banker's draft, which again will put off many bidders (and is plain stupid, to boot). However, I note the Ebay Germany listing <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Old-Italy-Mandolin-Calace-Alte-ital-Mandoline_W0QQitemZ330168383985QQihZ014QQcategoryZ  1017



%3Cbr%3E%3Cbr%3E9QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZView  Item" target="_blank">here</a> gives bank transfer as a permitted payment option. Bank transfers are the normal way for sellers on Ebay Germany to request payment, as they are free within Germany. However, German banks will _not_ do free transfers in Pounds Sterling, so this is a really silly way to list the mandolin -- I think potential buyers need to ask some questions about payment first.

Nothing much in the item description that can't be seen in the photos:

"Good condition except for some wear, see photos. Running the fingers across the bowl, there is a little step on the right-hand side towards the centre [whatever that means]. Also, on the bowl upper left-hand side [?] there is a tiny crack, also visible in the photos. In my opinion, the action in the neck is very good. Also, there are replacement tuners on the left side of the headstock."

To which one may add that the bridge is on the wrong side of the cant in the photos, so any pronouncements on action are pretty meaningless. On the whole, though, I think this may well be a sturdy player.

Martin

----------


## Fliss

Thanks for that, Martin. I wonder if when he says a "little step" that means there's some unevenness in the top? It's a bit difficult to tell from the photos.

I shall watch it with interest!

Fliss

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## Martin Jonas

My interpretation is that the seller means a slight displacement between adjacent ribs in the bowl. That's fairly common, and usually no cause for concern. The seller's descriptions of "left", "right", "centre" and "upper" are really unhelpful, whether in German or English.

Martin

----------


## Fliss

Doh! I hadn't spotted that you'd said "bowl", for some reason I was fixated on the top. Yes, as you say the description of the position isn't helpful, but I think I can envisage what he's talking about now!

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

Hmmmm... there is a seller on eBay by the name of martinjonas, selling a formerly 10-string Ceccherini.

Interesting...

----------


## brunello97

Ordinarily, Jim, this might catch my eye, but the seller's description is so brief and uninformative. 

Mick

----------


## Linda Binder



----------


## trebleclef528

Quote: JGarber : Hmmmm... there is a seller on eBay by the name of martinjonas, selling a formerly 10-string Ceccherini.

Does anyone know the seller? he appears to have included his photo alongside the mandolin pictures, looks like he's fairly well on in years and could indeed be the original owner of the instrument. I do know a martinjonas, but he's not as good looking as the guy in the photo!

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I do know a martinjonas, but he's not as good looking as the guy in the photo!


People in glass houses...

Martin

----------


## jasona



----------


## Keith Miller

how about this

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mandolin-Antique-Collectors-Item-Peg-Tuning_W0QQitemZ270168575808QQihZ017QQcategoryZ101  79Q
QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mandoli....iewItem</a>

----------


## Bob A

Kinda interesting. I tend to believe early 19th century, but I'd like to see the tailpiece. Sort of transitional, with a more modern board but an old-style guard. Bridge looks funky, I doubt it's original. I await the opinions of those who actually know something.

----------


## Eugene

Don't know what "something" I know, but I agree. This one I'd place in the mid to late 19th c., a holdover of the early Neapolitan mandolin in France. It is very similar in aesthetics to a piece I own of slighter, earlier proportions (see the venerable "Post a picture of your bowlback thread) as well as a piece being sold by Sinier de Ridder's shop. I suspect mine to be of ca. 1835-1850 vintage, Sinier de Ridder dates his to the mid 1800s, and the eBay piece has both a much more modern soundbox and lacks old-fashioned decorative ivory knobs on the headstock.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Jon Springall has one of these as well, with a Mirecourt label, and there have been several on Ebay over the years. #I'd also say they are French, probably made rather later than 1850 but in the earlier style which was becoming superseded in Italy. #Jon's (and probably this one, too) is rather lightly braced and needs the old mixed stringing rather than modern steel strings.

Martin

----------


## Eugene

Jon and I corresponded on his a while back. I think his lacks the old-fashioned, decorative ivory knobs at crests of the headstock as does the eBay piece. I also could have sworn his was totally unlabeled. Mirecourt is a relatively safe assumption based upon the work of known builders, Eulry, e.g.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I also could have sworn his was totally unlabeled.


You may well be right. I know Jon said it was made in Mirecourt, but I may misremember it as being labelled thus; it may have been Jon's assessment instead. I am pretty certain that some of the Ebay instruments did have Mirecourt labels. I bid on a couple of them, but with no great conviction and didn't win any.

Martin

----------


## chey47

If you had up to appox. $3,000 to spend on a bowlback mandolin what would you get?

----------


## Jim Garber

> If you had up to appox. $3,000 to spend on a bowlback mandolin what would you get?


Well... this could a thread of its own.

It sort of depends on what you are looking for and what you want to play on it. I think some of the better German instruments fall into that price range, I think.

If you can find one, some of the plainer but completely serviceable Emberghers would be around there. Some mid-range Calaces and Vinaccia's might fall there also.

Personally I would also look into Lorenzo Lippi's work. The one instrument of his I played -- an octave mandolin/mandola -- was quite nice. He is making copies of Embergher instruments. I am not sure if he is in that range tho.

One prob we in the US have currently is that the dollar is falling vs. the euro so prices are going up for us.

In the US we have Daniel Larson who is prob the most experienced of US bowlback makers. It looks like his standard model is right in that range. Peter Sawchyn and Brian Dean in Canada have also built a few bowlbacks that look pretty nice.

----------


## Jim Garber

I was hoping to get a crack at this unlabelled 4 string bowlback which I believe was made by Carlo Albertini. It will probably go way above what I can possibly bid on it (It is near to my limit but I will prob try anyway).

BTW I can't recall if this should be called a Brescian mandolin or a Cremonese mandolin (or both). What is especially appealing to me is that it is tuned the same as a Neapolitan. The condition on this one looks quite promising. Sad that my coffers are not quite full enough tho I will try.

Also appealing to me is that it is in the US, tho why one of these would show up in Irving, Texas must be a story in itself.

----------


## Martin Jonas

I like that Brescian -- Albertini or possibly Monzino would seem to be good bets.

Looks like my Ceccherini is going home to Napoli, as that's where the winning bidder is based. He got a good deal, too, I think -- there's another Ceccherini now here which has a higher starting bid than the winning bid on mine, and I think it's a slightly more modest model in similar condition.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Re: the Brescian. Too rich for my blood and there seems to be a bidding war. Might go past $1000, I figure.

Anyone here bidding or going for it?

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting... of course, that Brescian/Cremonese went to a European bidder. I highly doubt that there are too many Americans except for members of the Order who would even know what that mandolin is.

----------


## chey47

Hi Jim, Thanks for the info on the different types of mandolins, I was wondering if you had ever played one of the Daniel Larson Mandolins and your thoughts on it.

Joe

----------


## Martin Jonas

That Brescian went for quite a reasonable price, I thought. Would probably have gone higher with a maker's label -- I think the last one I saw at Ebay Italy, labelled Albertini, went for about 800 Euro or so.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Tant pis, Jim, about the 'Albertini'. It looked very nice. 

I've never been to Brescia, but have been in Irving a few times. It is pretty much a freeway-blown place, if you're not a pro football fan.

There is a Cistercian abbey there though, a nice pile of limestone by the architect Gary Cunningham. It's nice to imagine one of the monks playing the four-string. Weirder to think of him hocking it at Debby's Emporium.

Maybe there is some other story behind it....

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Unfortunately I let my instrument fund dry up otherwise I would have bid more than the high bidder. Then again he/she could have a much higher bid that that. 

I am 90% certain that that is an Albertini. The shape of the body and pickguard looks right for that maker.

Oh well, next time...

----------


## etbarbaric

Thanks for that Jim... I have long been in the market for a Brescian... but unfortunately, I was traveling and missed this one... bummer. It looks like a pretty one.

Eric

----------


## Jim Garber

> I am 90% certain that that is an Albertini. The shape of the body and pickguard looks right for that maker.


Then again, it also resembles this one by R. Maurri:

----------


## Jim Garber

This thread on a Maratea mandolin belongs here.

----------


## Jim Garber

I just discovered that eBay's search function does not always extend to some of their European sites. Seems that I find things on my searches in the US, UK and Germany, sometimes Belgium and the Netherlands but that I miss France and Italy.

On a search thru ebay.it:

1916 Puglisi -- sort of Embergher-like
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Antico-mandolino-Giuseppe-Toloni-di-Napoli_W0QQitemZ220155750069QQihZ012QQcategoryZ101  79QQ

ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Giuseppe Toloni</a> -- with tacky scratchplate
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-Napoletano-del-1895_W0QQitemZ300156394019QQihZ020QQcategoryZ10179  QQssPageNameZWD

VWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">1895 G. Cerpi</a> -- Vinaccia school(?) -- it looks from the label that it was made for G. Cerpi by a "very celebrated" maker. I wonder who?

Of course, the real barrier to us bowlheads in the US is shipping and customs complications.

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

The Puglisi seems to have an interesting story. It must have spent some time in Germany. Then back to Italy... and who knows where else it has travelled. The price is quite reasonable so far.

----------


## trebleclef528

I agree that is a very unusual Puglisi. looks very good! I've got quite a few Puglisi's,and they are quite distinctive in style although I have had a couple where they have definately copied the De meglio style (seems lots of people did), but this is the first that I've seen one which has "Embergher" features, the finger board is completely out of character for a Puglisi... but I like it. Puglisi mandolins were very popular mandolins in Germany... possible one of the most popular of italian mandolins, not stunning to look at but generally well built instruments.

----------


## Jim Garber

A little entertaining humor from <a href="http://cgi.ebay.fr/TRES-BELLE-MANDOLINE-CARLO-FOVERI-LIGLIO-cotes-creuse_W0QQitemZ150168743849QQihZ005QQcateg
oryZ104485QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">eBay France</a>. Is this a joke label? Or some way to cover a counterfeit mandolin.

----------


## brunello97

Given all the 'authentic' sounding brand-names on import mandolins perhaps this is an early version of the same. Or perhaps somebody at Le Kinko's made a mistake.....

----------


## brunello97

This ad showed up on the Ebay recently. I'm not familiar at all with the Baehr mandolin but since I used to live on 14th St. it got me back to my roots. I did some searching here after them to no avail. I turned up a patent drawing that is perhaps to small to post here. Anyone familiar with these and their curious tuning devices? Did I miss something in my search?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Is this really a Martin?

I am not at home with my Martin book but that headstock looks wrong. Eugene...others? what do you think?

----------


## Eugene

> Is this really a Martin?
> 
> I am not at home with my Martin book but that headstock looks wrong. Eugene...others? #what do you think?


I'm not at home with my Martin books either, but everything about it looks like American Conservatory (or some other 2nd-tier L&H brand) to me: soundbox profile, headstock, position markers, scratchplate, tailpiece, rosette, tuner configuration, etc. The given date would place it in Martin's early G series; I have precious little experience with those and have only seen a couple in person, those at the Martin factory museum. It doesn't look like any G series I've seen or seen pictured. Also, I'm not aware of Martin ever using such a label as pictured (but it wouldn't surprise me to see forgeries sporting something like it). I would also expect it to bear a Martin stamp someplace, but none is pictured. The one Martin-like exception is the bridge, which does look like that of a 1900s Martin, but bridges are easily replaced, of course.

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, Eugene. I knew you would come thru. We will reconvene when we get out our Longsworths -- pardon the expression.

----------


## Jim Garber

I checked my Longworth book -- the only one that has 4 pics of the G-models -- and none resemble them in any way. I would say that "Martin" is really a style 69 American Conservatory (as Eugene noted). I asked the seller for better pics of th3e fretboard and the front of the headstock.

I have a feeling that that is a fake label.

----------


## brunello97

> I checked my Longworth book -- the only one that has 4 pics of the G-models -- and none resemble them in any way. I would say that "Martin" is really a style 69 American Conservatory (as Eugene noted). I asked the seller for better pics of th3e fretboard and the front of the headstock.
> 
> I have a feeling that that is a fake label.


Interesting, oh Photoshop-master. I was a little suspicious of the photo itself, before questioning the veracity of the label. 

Seems like it could be a bit of a clunky collage, the kind I resort to doing to take poorly placed electrical boxes, plumbing stubs, signage, etc. etc. off of photos of my buildings. (And that's supposed to be a secret.)

Any photos of those NYC made Martins making it out into public? All these New Yorkers showing up lately are taking me back to my roots.

Go Tribe.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> This ad showed up on the Ebay recently. I'm not familiar at all with the Baehr mandolin but since I used to live on 14th St. it got me back to my roots. I did some searching here after them to no avail. I turned up a patent drawing that is perhaps to small to post here. Anyone familiar with these and their curious tuning devices? Did I miss something in my search?
> 
> Mick


I had downloaded the patent some time ago and didn't even realize it. Here is the drawing.

----------


## Jim Garber

It is a design patent, meaning that it does not really cover any mechanism but just the shape of the object, in this case the headstock. Of course, he must have seen Stauffer's guitars but I suppose it also covers the angle of the headstock.

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## brunello97

Jim,

Thanks for posting these. That's the same image I found on the Canadian site, though in much sharper quality. The patent text seems remarkably vague. I don't know but the whole idea seems kind of weird, and assumes that individual strings will respond EXACTLY the same to environmental conditions (as well as to the nut slots, gearing, etc.) I suppose it could work.

Kind of puts me in the mind of some odd lever-and-cam devices I've heard rumor of to switch guitar tunings between the eadgbe tuning to something slide friendly. Though I've never actually seen one of these.

Mick

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## Eugene

> Of course, he must have seen Stauffer's guitars but I suppose it also covers the angle of the headstock.


This strikes me as possibly more domra- or tamburiza- than Stauffer-inspired. #Also, a great many guitar makers/brands used the headstock profile you have in mind: Staufer/Stauffer, Scherzer, Martin, Vinaccias, Mayflower, etc. #I think it may be most common to refer to them as Stauffer-style here because Stauffer made early use of them and Martin worked in Stauffer's shop so his early NY guitars are called "Stauffer-style." #Here's my own by the Austrian Empire's (from what is now Hungary) Placht Brothers:

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## Martin Jonas

What confuses me is that he has only four pegs. The number of strings is not apparent from the illustration in the ad, but the text of the ad suggests to me that it may nevertheless have eight strings. I can't see how that might work. If it's four strings, then really it's just an oddly-shaped domra rather than a mandolin. Domras, of course, have that sort of headstock as default anyway.

Martin

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## brunello97

> ... but the text of the ad suggests to me that it may nevertheless have eight strings. I can't see how that might work.....


I've had the very same thought, Martin. Perhaps that is why we aren't seeing many of them around. You can imagine, though, the (possibly dim) lightbulb in someone's head. "What if I......"

It does reinforce the idea that this was a period of time with a range of design thought and experimentation. (As Eugene is good to remind us, OGibson wasn't working in a vacuum.) Some ideas gained dominance and others (good or less) faded away. Given the local production of instruments at that time it is fascinating and charming to think of these small machine shops (that was still a present part of lower Manhattan in my youth) working out these parts in small batches.

I hope someone can turn up a photo.

Mick

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## Neil Gladd

> Originally Posted by  (martinjonas @ Oct. 11 2007, 02:23)
> 
> ... but the text of the ad suggests to me that it may nevertheless have eight strings. I can't see how that might work.....
> 
> 
> I've had the very same thought, Martin. Perhaps that is why we aren't seeing many of them around. You can imagine, though, the (possibly dim) lightbulb in someone's head. "What if I......"


I can see how it might have allegedly worked. You attach the loop on the end of the string on the tuning head, NEAR the peg. The string goes down the fingerboard, across the bridge to a pulley on the endblock, then back up the neck to the tuning machine. Turn one knob and it tunes both strings! Tune in half the time, and both strings are in perfectly in unison! I'm amazed it never caught on!

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## brunello97

Well, Neil, I think your idea sounds good. I guess both sides of the 'loop' you describe would have to behave the same way viz expansion/contraction, gear slackening, etc. But it sounds good in theory. A clever proposition.

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

This looks like quite a nice newish bowlback. No maker's name, but I'd guess Japanese. Nice flamed maple bowl.

Here is a rosewood Embergher Tipo A, but with extensive, and rather crude, repairs. The seller is a bit confused about the "Tipo A" and "Tipo B" designations -- I wonder where he got the stuff from that he wrote.

Martin

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## Eugene

> This looks like quite a nice newish bowlback. #No maker's name, but I'd guess Japanese. #Nice flamed maple bowl.


...and unfortunate "scooped" extension.

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## Jim Garber

> Here is a rosewood Embergher Tipo A, but with extensive, and rather crude, repairs. The seller is a bit confused about the "Tipo A" and "Tipo B" designations -- I wonder where he got the stuff from that he wrote.


Martin, 
Am I mistaken but is this located very near to Jon Springall's shop? I thought he was in Hitchin.

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## Martin Jonas

Yes, Jon's shop is in Hitchin. Don't think he's the seller, though -- he owns Ralf's book and he knows very well that not all Tipo A had rosewood bowls, as he's worked on both yours and mine. I wonder whether the seller took it in to Jon for an appraisal and is quoting misremembered bits of what he was told.

Martin

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## Eugene

I haven't been by the Folkway site for a while. #They do seem a little "optimistic" regarding some of their listed prices. #I would argue their "1905 Larson Mayflower Mandolin" is almost certainly not a Larson bros., but more likely a commission from Vega. #Headstock profile, ornamental scrolled hole in the head, bridge design, neck/headstock-joint volute, even the purfling-strip binding: almost everything about it screams "Vega" to me. #Your thoughts?

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## Martin Jonas

I think this might actually be a bowlback mandocello. No scale length given, but overall length is 99cm (39"), which might well translate to a scale length around 65cm (26"). Strange bowl: some black mastic or opaque paint covers all the joints. Not a high-class instrument, most likely, but how often do you see a bowlback mandocello?

And to stick with the large ones, here is a German bowlback tenor mandola (i.e. octave mandolin), made by Hoyer, no less, but in their pre-war Saxon incarnation.

This one has an interesting bulbous body shape, with a very distinct recurve. Unusual decorations, too. Odd, but I quite like it.

Martin

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## brunello97

Well, Eugene, a lot of my archive images can't match the quality of the pictures on the Folkway's site, but here is a matchup of an Abt model headstock back and that of the Conservatory model at FWs.

Their prices do seem a bit stout, even more so as the $US/$C have leveled up. I've long admired the Favilla bowl on their site, but feel it is about a C note or more above what I'm comfortable with.

Mick

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## onthefiddle

Hi,

I was just browsing through the mandolins on ebay.co.uk, and noticed the Embergher being sold by somebody from Hitchin. I haven't seen this instrument, and as far I am aware I don't know the seller. If anyone is interested, and the seller is willing to bring it to my shop, then I would be happy to have a look at it for you.

If anyone is interested, you should take into account that casein based glues are not reversible as far I am aware (though I would be interested to hear otherwise), and also that many people think that "Cascamite" is casein based, when it is actually Urea Formaldehyde - and definitely not reversible.

Of course, if I fall in love with it, I don't guarantee that I won't bid myself!  

While on the subject of Luigi Embergher, Becky and I visited Arpino while on our honeymoon in July. The museum was very interesting, the staff were extremely helpful and the town is very beautiful - I have been meaning to post a panorama taken from our hotel room, I'll try to post a link today.

Jon

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## onthefiddle

I have just put together a small gallery of photos, taken during our (too brief) stay in Arpino. We will definitely be going back.

For anyone else going there, I can recommend the hotel where we stayed:

Hotel "Bel Sito"
Via Ciao Mario, 20/b
03033 - Arpino (FR)
Tel. 077684272

As you can see, the view from the balcony was beautiful, the room was clean, and the price was very reasonable.

P.S. It just occurred to me that Christine Evans-Pughe, who owns the shop where I work, wrote a small article about Jim's Embergher, which can be found at the Strings website, her latest article about antique and modern instruments is also well worth a read.

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## RSW

Where is the link to the Abt mandolin? I would like to see it. Thanks!

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## Jim Garber

> Where is the link to the Abt mandolin? I would like to see it. Thanks!


I believe that that one is the one that Eric won last fall. Here are a couple of shots from the eBay listing.

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## Jim Garber

Nice-looking Fratelli Vinaccia in Kansas. I love the seller's description:



> Here is an antique, mandolin made by Fratelli Vinaccia. The label is signed by him.


Price is getting up there in the early days of this auction. I think it will break $2000.

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## Martin Jonas

That Vinaccia looks to be in beautiful condition, except for the few minor bits shown in the detail photos. I would have thought it should be at least $2500, possibly more. The only question mark I have is whether the bowl has been refinished -- it looks very shiny.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

It doesn't look refinished to me. It looks like a well-taken-cared-of mandolin. You are prob right that it will go for $2500+. I am being more conservative these days.

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## Bruce Clausen

Any idea what this is? #Seems to have a legible label, but the ad gives no info from it.

http://vancouver.craigslist.org/msg/447240633.html


BC

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## Bob A

Looks like a typical De Meglio or one of the imitators of same. Generally nice instruments; price is not too extravagant if instrument is in playable condition.

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## Bob A

Doubtless many have already noticed this Ceccherini in the Cafe classifieds.

I find Ceccherini instruments to have a distinctive and pleasing tonality; they seem to chime, like a celesta. The double soundboard is an interesting feature, and seems to work to produce this sound. I believe another poster has two examples, one with, one without the double board, and has mentioned the audible difference.

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## brunello97

(Bob, you are ahead of me...)

Bruce,

While the photos are a bit grainy, a lot of the details appear DeMeglio-ish: the pickguard, side sound holes, sleeveguard, maybe even the size of the label however fuzzy in the hole. That would be my first guess, though others with more experience here might venture otherwise. 

If it is in v good condition, the $595 price might not be far out of line, perhaps a bit higher than on the ebay (where DeMeglio mandolins are a fairly regular feature, sold from the UK.) The DeMeglios I've played have been quite nice and I believe they are fairly universally praised. I would enjoy owning one myself.

Still, as you probably know, the vagarities of time and string tension play havoc on bowlback necks. It would be worth getting more information and more images if you are considering the instrument.

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

> I believe another poster has two examples, one with, one without the double board, and has mentioned the audible difference.


That'll be me -- yes, there is a big difference between my two Ceccherinis (now that I have sold the third, the 10-string model). It's of course difficult to say whether that's because of the double top. My single-top is dark, complex and not particularly loud, the double-top is bright, chiming and loud. Both are quality mandolins.

Martin

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## brunello97

Martin, 

What time is it in the UK? 4:00am?

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

Well, yes, but I'm not in the UK at the moment, I am in India on business and it was breakfast time here.

Martin

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## brunello97

Aah, that explains it. And here I was thinking you were glued to the BBC listening to the Tribe pasting the Bosox (again.) Baseball: kind of like cricket, which your hosts are a quite fond of as I understand.

Mick

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## Fliss

> While the photos are a bit grainy, a lot of the details appear DeMeglio-ish: the pickguard, side sound holes, sleeveguard, maybe even the size of the label however fuzzy in the hole.


It does look very De Meglio-ish, but I must confess that doesn't look like a De Meglio label to me, although it's hard to tell from those photos. 

Meanwhile our friend Ian (Trebleclef) has a nice looking Angara & D'Isanto for sale with a gorgeous flamed maple bowl:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ITALIAN-MANDOLIN-VINACCIA-1895-ANGARA-DISANTO_W0QQitemZ330177217877QQihZ014QQcategoryZ10  17
9QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ITALIAN....iewItem</a> 

Fliss

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## Bruce Clausen

What a team! Two answers in 15 minutes to my late night Craig's list query. Thanks Bob, Mick, Fliss. "I wasn't really looking for another bowlback" (familiar words around here?), but now I'm tempted to check it out just to be able to report whether it is in fact a de Meglio. But I have a feeling that's a slippery slope to start down.

BC

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## Jim Garber

Bruce:
I looked thru over 40 separate instrument files I have on Demeglio and I see nothing that resembles that one exactly. That inlay on the scratchplate is esp puzzling. It is not as graceful as some of the fancier of DeMeglios. 

Did you hear anything from the seller yet? Any details on the label etc?

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## Martin Jonas

I had the same thoughts as Jim: this is an instrument in the de Meglio style, but somehow it doesn't quite seem like any de Meglio I've seen. The standard models have a fairly standardised inlay of a single twig on the scratchplate and nothing surrounding the soundhole. The fancier models have more elaborate inlay, but they also tend to have fancy tortoiseshell binding, which this one doesn't. One would really need to know what the label says, but my guess is that this isn't a de Meglio but one of the clones.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Here we go... the ultimate bowlback of note. 1896 Embergher artistic. Is this a tipo 8? At vintage-instruments.com, for anyone interested.



> LUIGI EMBERGHER, Mandolin, 1896, in a particularly fine state of preservation, the Brazilian rosewood back with 39 fluted staves, the clasp inlaid with ivory and pearl, the neck overlaid with tortoise and a decorative pearl and ivory beastie head motif, the back of the head overlaid with tortoise with pearl edges, tuner knobs are engraved ivory, and tuner plated are silver- plated, headstock face profusely inlaid with pearl and ivory as is the febony fingerboard, with a later hard case, there is undocumented provenance attributing past ownership to the Empress of Russia,


Hmmmm... I never heard of a "febony" fingerboard. Is that an esp rare form of ebony? I should make a pilgrimage to Philadelphia to play this one before it gets swept out of the store.

It looks like the Empress did not play that much.

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## Martin Jonas

Considering that they want $8000 for their Ceccherini (a high-quality builder, of course, but without the name recognition of the Big Three, and theirs has a bit too much bling for my taste), the $15000 they want for this sounds almost reasonable.

Martin

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## etbarbaric

Thanks for that Jim.

I agree with Martin, but a word of caution. #That shop -- in addition to having a tendency to inflate prices -- can also play a little fast and loose with attribution in my experience. #I'm sure we all remember the decorated instrument (a Rubino) that they persisted in listing as a Vinaccia, even after it was brought to their attention. #It has sold now, I hope the buyer was aware.

Not that there is any question of attribution of the *instrument* in this case. #From Alex' description it would appear to be a N. 7. #I'll let him confirm. #I did take humor at the attribution on the website:

 # # # "Undocumented provenance attributing past ownership to the 
 # # # #Empress of Russia"

Undocumened provenance is pretty much an oxymoron in my view. #Next to a photo of a N. 8, Alex' website states: 

 # # # "Another known example was ordered by Tsarina Maria Feodorovna
 # # # #(1847 - 1928) for which Embergher made a richly decorated N. 8
 # # # #mandolin in 1902."

If Alex is right, I rather suspect that this 1896 instrument is not that instrument. #This one also clearly does not have the level of dead-animal decoration of the N. 8.

Still... is it wrong to lust?

Eric

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## etbarbaric

ps - Martin... No such thing as too much bling... :-)

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## Steve Davis

Yeah, but how does it sound?

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## etbarbaric

Additionally, unless my eyes decieve me, there is a bass-side table crack that is not mentioned in the description. That might or might not need attention.

How does it sound? No telling... but as Alex points out on his site, even the fancy Emberghers left their soundboards relatively plain to retain sound quality. I'd bet it could be made to sound pretty nice. 

Eric

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## Bob A

The Russian Embergher I saw a few years ago had the Imperial Eagle engraved on the tuner buttons.

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## Jim Garber

> The Russian Embergher I saw a few years ago had the Imperial Eagle engraved on the tuner buttons.


Well, there is something on the tuner buttons but i can't tell if it is an eagle.

Regarding attribution: Fred Oster is pretty savvy about instruments -- he consulted with Christie's over here. I would also say that he is a savvy businessman also. That said, I am sure that he is not perfect either and i don't realy think he is an expert on Emberghers. 

A lot of the fancier bowlbacks belong to a collector who is selling off his collection and also sells that CD of these instruments on eBay.

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## Bruce Clausen

Just for the record, the Vancouver Craig's list mandolin discussed above has a label that reads Fratelli Bellini, Napoli, plus a number (no date). One of the de Meglio clones Martin mentioned? Additional photos suggest it was never a fine instrument, and certainly isn't now. Thanks again for advice here.

BC

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Eric,

Thanks for letting me know about this interesting 1896 Luigi Embergher mandolin. It's #a very beautiful instrument of which some of the decorations indeed look like those on the one Luigi Embergher made for the Russian Empress. 

This particular mandolin however does, as the seller informes us, has: 

1) 39 Brazilian rosewood fluted staves, 
2) a clasp inlaid with ivory and pearl, 
3) a neck overlaid with tortoise and a decorative pearl and ivory beastie head motif, 
4) the back of the head overlaid with tortoise with pearl edges, tuner knobs are engraved ivory, and tuner plated are silver- plated, headstock face profusely inlaid with pearl and ivory as is the febony fingerboard, 

The features pointed out in 1 and 3 do more describe the highest orchestra model: the N. 4 Mandolin. Often this model is (also) refered too as being the Artistic model within the Orchestra mandolin line.

Here is the translated text of one of Luigi Embergher's published catalogues: 
_Mandolino per orchestra, in palissander wood with 40 sculpted ribs with ivory lining in between, refined ivory and mother of pearl decoration inlay on the scratch-plate, head and fingerboard. Patented mechanic, border lining in mother of pearl, neck veneered with tortoise shell, concert fingerboard in ebony wood. 

N.B. Of this model we also make Mandoliole (Alto-mandolins), Mandoloncelli and Mandolbassi_

The enlarged concert fingerboard with 29 instead of the 25 frets mentioned in the catalogue description, was a later addition to this model and was not applied on this particular mandolin. 


Best regards all,

Alex

PS. Unless the seller comes up with proof or some connection with the Russian Empress, I don't think there is a link between this mandolin and Russia...

----------


## Eugene

That Embergher is owned by a friend of mine here in Ohio. #We spoke of it with some frequency in the past. I would have spoken more of it with the goodly folks here, but he was rather private and shy about letting anybody know about it or where it was. #I'm relatively certain the price posted is not Fred's, but the price my friend is hoping to draw on consignment. #There is an interesting anecdote in a letter written by the previous previous owner of how it came to be in possession of the current owner's father, involving some Russian military expatriates and a chronology of ownership transfer, but perhaps difficult to substantiate without a little physical footwork. #I have personally handled and photographed it. #I have no doubt that it is a real product of the Embergher shop.

Here are some observations I had made of the piece's condition in April 2006:



> The soundboard has one obvious repaired crack from scratchplate to butt and a couple very fine cracks along the fingerboard. #The table's join is rather obvious and may have separated and been re-glued at some time. #The cant appears healthy. #It appears as though the bridge has had a thin shim added, perhaps to elevate action and eliminate fret buzz at some time. #My acquaintance does not have the instrument tuned to pitch, so I don't know how it sounds or plays; the action does look a bit too high. #There is a fair amount of pick wear in the finish. #Some of the ink is worn out of the engraving in high-friction areas. #It does have a few other cosmetic issues with condition.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello again,

Here is a photo of the unfortunate Russian Tsarina Maria Feodorovna and a picture of the mandolin, an Artistic model N. 8, that Luigi Embergher made for her in 1902.


Greetings, 

Alex

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Interesting, Eugene.

Can you recall what the lable says?


Greetings, 

Alex

----------


## Eugene

It was one of the standard labels, I don't recall which, but I do have photos at home and can look in the next couple days. #I had also noted:



> I don't recall seeing a date written on the label, but might have missed it in my haste. #It is backed in 41 ribs of rosewood/palisander, 39 of which are fine and fluted. #The clasp is inlaid with engraved ivory, and engraved mother of pearl and ivory decor abound on the instrument. #The neck is veneered in tortoise shell and has some fanciful, Embergher-like ivory dragon heads near the neck-body joint. #The peghead is of the flat variety and again veneered in tortoise with plenty of pearl decor. #The fingerboard features a standard pattern of pearl vines with engraved ivory flowers as position markers. #The bridge is ebony without a bone/ivory saddle. #The tailpiece is engraved in typical ornate calligraphy and appears to read "RW."


Unfortunatley, I have only seen the instrument on one occasion and had expected to scrutinize it more carefully in the future. #Also unfortunately, that future never came to be.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello again Eugene,

Thank you very much for the detailed description. I would certainly appreciate it to see more photos of this instrument and of the informative letter attached to it.

Greetings and many thanks in advantage,

Alex

----------


## Eugene

Unfortunately yet again, I had to solemnly promise this friend of mine I would not share any photos without his express permission. Those at Oster's site are of better quality than mine anyhow (mine really were impromptu, shot on his couch without any fancy lighting, backdrops, etc.). In any event, the e-mail I had used for this friend has been bouncing over the last month or two. However, we move in similar circles, and I did have a phone number for him someplace at one time. I'll see if I can track him down and engage him here now that the instrument is pictured publicly at Fred's shop and he's looking to sell.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

I understand.

Best regards, Alex

----------


## brunello97

> Just for the record, the Vancouver Craig's list mandolin discussed above has a label that reads Fratelli Bellini, Napoli, plus a number (no date). One of the de Meglio clones Martin mentioned? Additional photos suggest it was never a fine instrument, and certainly isn't now. Thanks again for advice here.
> 
> BC


Bruce, 

You were kind of buried there in the crush of the Czarina, Embergher, Rasputin, et al. I only have one Fratelli Bellini in my files, unfortunately, and it is not a DeMeglio clone. (Equally unfortunate is that I don't have a view of the label.) 

Jim or Martin might have better examples, which I of course would enjoy seeing. After looking through the couple dozen DeMeglios I do have here, I agree with Martin's assessment of the relative in-elegance of scratchplate foliage. I wouldn't know to make any further assumptions based on that, but it might call into question the asking price, for which a proper DeMeglio should be had for. (Particularly if you are more deft than I in your ebay bid management!)

My eyes are still bloodshot from the recent Embergher images so maybe when things cool down around here you can steer us back to the mandolins of the common (yet extraordinary) man.

Mick

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi Alex and Eugene, 

Thanks for the information. It is a lovely instrument, even if it needs some work to become functional.

As I said, the Embergher largely speaks for itself in this case. It obviously is what it is. I'll only add that Eugene's brief in-hand description was the kind of detailed perspective that I would hope to expect from a reputable dealer. EBay is one thing, but I expect a dealer to tell me these things. Also, unless the dealer can provide *documented* provenance, and is willing to sign his good name to it... its just a nice story... fun to think about, and maybe even true... but its nothing that one can ascribe monetary value to. 

Eric

----------


## Jim Garber

> Just for the record, the Vancouver Craig's list mandolin discussed above has a label that reads Fratelli Bellini, Napoli, plus a number (no date). One of the de Meglio clones Martin mentioned? Additional photos suggest it was never a fine instrument, and certainly isn't now. Thanks again for advice here.
> 
> BC


Hi Bruce et al:
I do have photos of a Bellini which is a DeMeglio clone.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a closer pic.

----------


## Jim Garber

The label

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Jim, I knew you would come through. The border on the label confirms Fliss's eagle eye. 

Very nice looking top on the Bellini, but am I nicking pits to suggest the fretboard extension looks awkward with the DeMeglio-esque scratchplate?

Mick

Reminds me of a t-shirt a plant-pathologist pal of mine from Arkansas has, reading: "We have the buffers. Send in the clones." 
Always cracked me up.

----------


## Eugene

Here's one for your "Striking Coincidence" file. #I have a report to the feds due today. #Their brand new, online reporting system keeps crashing and OSU suffered a huge power failure this morning. #When the power came, on OSU's web and mail server were still down for a while. #Things are gradually coming back online. #As mail started arriving, I received a note from the owner of the Embergher discussed here. #It turns out that a local shop where I had left a ca. 1904 Washburn (much less exciting than an Embergher of the Tsarist Court) has shopped the repair work off to the owner of the Embergher, and he wanted to consult with me regarding bridge and tuners. #He added, "By the way, I still have the Emberger mandolin on consignment at Vintage Instruments for sale." #(Although, I didn't know it actually was on consignment there until somebody pointed it out here.) #I'll let him know it's a topic of discussion.

----------


## trebleclef528

Here's a bit of a strange coincidence on Ebay Italy a very nice fluted bowlback by <a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-Giovanni-De-Santis-del-1892_W0QQitemZ300162745139QQihZ020QQcategoryZ10179  QQssPag
eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Giovanni Di Santis</a>and also offered by a different seller is a detailed <a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Rilievo-Poster-mandolino-De-Santis-1888-pre-Embergher_W0QQitemZ230183308928QQihZ013QQcateg
oryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">technical drawing</a>of a Di Santis fluted bowlback

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## Jim Garber

Ian:
 The seller of the drawing is Lorenzo Lippi, luthier of Embergher clones that Alex has been working with. He also sells the poster/drawing of the Embergher.

That DeSantis _is_ a nice one. I asked the seller to send larger photos. You would think for that price he would post larger ones.

Has anyone played a DeSantis? How do they compare to Emberghers?

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## trebleclef528

Thanks for the info Jim. and since we were earlier on the subject of Fratelli Bellini <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-LATE-1800S-MANDOLIN-FRATELLI-BELLINI-ITALY_W0QQitemZ280164834901QQihZ018QQcategory
Z10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here's</a> one thats just appeared on ebay US . nice one

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## brunello97

Wow. These synchronicities are becoming Jung-ier and Jung-ier. At this rate the next thing I'll expect to hear is that Joey Bishop played the mandolin.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> Thanks for the info Jim. and since we were earlier on the subject of Fratelli Bellini <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-LATE-1800S-MANDOLIN-FRATELLI-BELLINI-ITALY_W0QQitemZ280164834901QQihZ018QQcategory
> 
> 
> Z10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here's</a> one thats just appeared on ebay US . nice one


Synchronicities aside, I would say that that is the same one that Bruce found on craigslist-_Vancouver_. You can get larger and more detailed photos on eBay, but some are the same as on craigslist.

----------


## Jim Garber

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/FRETELLY-VINACCIA-19TH-c-NAPOLI-MANDOLIN-MANDOLINO_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ10179QQihZ01

3QQitemZ230164077079QQrdZ1" target="_blank">This mandolin</a> is a Fratelli "Something" but I wonder about the Vinaccia attribution -- wishful thinking, I think. It has been listed a few times already on eBay. 

I want to go thru all my Vinaccia labels to see if there is one that has that word positioned in that place. Most I have seen had Flli in small type but I am sure that there are label variations.

OTOH this looks like an interesting fluted back Neapolitan-made instrument that needs some work. If it were an actual Vinaccia the BIN price is not so bad. On the third hand, the Uruguayan seller ploy of listing it as being in Miami I am sure turns off many prospective bidders.

----------


## Bob A

The chopped look at the tailpiece, the cheesy-looking fretboard and the bone tuners all jar against the ornate pearl and fluting. A mandolin to play for the dog's breakfast.

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## Martin Jonas

> Here is a rosewood Embergher Tipo A, but with extensive, and rather crude, repairs. The seller is a bit confused about the "Tipo A" and "Tipo B" designations -- I wonder where he got the stuff from that he wrote.
> 
> Martin


Went for 550 Pounds on a buy-it-now. Strange -- I could have sworn when I last looked at it there was no buy-it-now option. I think even in its butchered condition it would have gone for quite a bit more.

On the other hand this buy-it-now may be a bit too optimistic. Salsedo is a good maker, but 525 Pounds is a bit high for this one. The side-on view shows the action to be sky-high and I think it's neck joint is probably a mess. Avoid, I'd say.

Martin

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## brunello97

> A mandolin to play for the dog's breakfast.


Wow, Bob, this doesn't look Vinaccia to me either. But it would then seem to me los perros esta comiendo bien en Uruguay.

Mick

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## Fliss

> ...On the other hand this buy-it-now may be a bit too optimistic. #Salsedo is a good maker, but 525 Pounds is a bit high for this one. #The side-on view shows the action to be sky-high and I think it's neck joint is probably a mess. #Avoid, I'd say.
> 
> Martin


I remember we've seen a Salsedo on a buy-it-now of £525 before, at least twice if not three times, and each time it's had no takers. I can't remember what the pictures were like the previous times, but I wonder if this is the same one?

Fliss

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## Fliss

Has anyone heard of Michele Marano previously? The label says he's a pupil of Vinaccia:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-Mandolin-by-MICHELE-MARANO_W0QQitemZ290172077062QQihZ019QQcategoryZ101  79QQssPageNa
meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique....iewItem</a> 

Fliss

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## Eugene

> Has anyone played a DeSantis?


Carlo Aonzo has one.

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## CraigF

Is <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-huge-old-mandola-mandolin-guitar-or-Lute-herwiga_W0QQitemZ170159509031QQihZ007QQcateg
oryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> a Mandocello?

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## Jim Garber

> Has anyone heard of Michele Marano previously? The label says he's a pupil of Vinaccia:
> 
> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-Mandolin-by-MICHELE-MARANO_W0QQitemZ290172077062QQihZ019QQcategoryZ101  79QQssPageNa
> 
> meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique....iewItem</a> 
> 
> Fliss


Marano says he is an ADV (allievo di Vinaccia) but also uses sistemo DeMeglio. Interesting. I did a quick and dirty photoshop to see the dark side of the label.

This one doesn't look to be a very desirable example but I have none of this maker.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Is <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-huge-old-mandola-mandolin-guitar-or-Lute-herwiga_W0QQitemZ170159509031QQihZ007QQcateg
> 
> oryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> a Mandocello?


Either mandocello or what we in the US would call an octave mandolin. herwige is a pretty well-respected German maker that copied Emberghers. That is what this one is. Maybe a few others who know better can tell if this is a mandocello.

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## brunello97

Maybe when Martin gets up he will be willing to fill us in. (What does a German guy, living in England, eat for breakfast in India?) Seems like someone was pondering on the existence of m'cello-bowls around here not that long ago. This one looks quite nice.

And while the questions are flying about, I'll impatiently toss one of my own. Here is a Stridente "Scanelatto" (?)described as yet another 'allievo de Vinaccia'.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=012

The label, sans reference to the master, appears similar to other earlier Stridente labels (and the address is the same as on my later model.) I've never heard Stridente described in reference to Vinaccia before and had them pegged as a bit of a jobber label. Mine is charming at best, modest at least.

Has anyone else seen or heard reference connecting Stridente to Vinaccia in such a direct manner?

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

> Maybe when Martin gets up he will be willing to fill us in. (What does a German guy, living in England, eat for breakfast in India?) Seems like someone was pondering on the existence of m'cello-bowls around here not that long ago. This one looks quite nice.


Cornflakes. Makes a change from curry for lunch and dinner every day.

Yes, I'm pretty sure this is a mandocello. Bowlback (octave) mandolas tend to have pretty short scale lengths, at most 20" rather than the 23.5" of this one.

This is a really classy one, too. Herwiga Solist were the top brand for mandolas in Germany, so I would expect a mandocello from them to be excellent.

While on the topic of mandocelli (if that is the right plural), the auction for the one I flagged up last week ended yesterday here. I did put in a lowball bid of 73 Euro a few minutes before the end when the high bid was around 50, but as the previous bidder had bid higher, I didn't get it. As there were no other bidders, it went for just under 75 Euro. Surely a big bargain for getting any sort of bowlback mandocello. Of course, this doesn't look like a quality instrument, and I have the suspicion that all that black paint or mastic may have been added later to cover up unknown horrors. Also it doesn't have a bridge and looking at the photos I suspect it also may not have a tailpiece. It may even have a stripped top that needs to be revarnished. Altogether, I would have taken it at rock bottom, just to have a mandocello to play around with, but didn't feel inclined to bid higher and get a potential basketcase.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

> The label, sans reference to the master, appears similar to other earlier Stridente labels (and the address is the same as on my later model.) I've never heard Stridente described in reference to Vinaccia before and had them pegged as a bit of a jobber label. Mine is charming at best, modest at least.


More wishful thinking, I'd say. As you say, the label doesn't mention Vinaccia, and I've never seen any that does. The label also doesn't mention "Scanellato", so it's mysterious where that comes from. Maybe there's a reference somewhere in a builders' directory to a "Stridente Scanellato", and the seller has applied it to the high-volume output of the Stridente shop.

This one may be highly-decorated, but it is in a shocking condition. Look at the little metal plate at the back of the headstock: ad-hoc repair for a cracked headstock, anybody?

I really can't see any justification for the impressive current high bid of 606 Euro. That's well above what my Ceccherini sold for, which I am positive is a much nicer instrument, from a builder with better reputation than Stridente, as well as being in incomparably better condition. Not as much bling, though. Maybe I should have said "allievo di Vinaccia", but old Umberto would have risen from his grave to strangle me had I done so...

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> The label also doesn't mention "Scanellato", so it's mysterious where that comes from. Maybe there's a reference somewhere in a builders' directory to a "Stridente Scanellato", and the seller has applied it to the high-volume output of the Stridente shop.


Doesn't _scanellato_ mean fluted (channelled)?

That one looks like top of the Stridente line. Strange repair plate on the back of the neck joint.

----------


## Jim Garber

Check out this old headless unlabelled mandolin.

The seller is an early instrument dealer of sorts and despitew his description of it as a lute I would think that the scratchplate would indicate mandolin. Weren't lutes usually played with the fingers therefore not necessitating a scratchplate? 

Too bad it lost its head. It would have been an interesting restoration project. 

Any other comments from the early music experts? Could that date be a little early also?

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Check out this old headless unlabelled mandolin.
> 
> Too bad it lost its head. It would have been an interesting restoration project.


I was tempted for a minute until I read that it is a MINIATURE mandolin 10" long. I already have something similar in my collection. Next time it surfaces, I'll take pictures.

----------


## Jim Garber

Upon re-reading the seller does say that it is a mandolin. He says 10 inches long but that would be without the head I would assume. Still that would be a piccolo mandolin?

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## Neil Gladd

Even headless, 10" is pretty darn short. I think it is just a model, not a playable instrument. Mine is clearly just a model and has the features of an 18th century mandolin, but I'm not sure how old it actually is. I suppose I'll have to look for it now...

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## brunello97

> Doesn't _scanellato_ mean fluted (channelled)?


Oh, yes. So you think scanellato was referring to the MANDOLIN. I just was imagining Signore Stridente (if there is one) to be a bit on the skinny side....

Mick

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## CraigF

> Yes, I'm pretty sure this is a mandocello. Bowlback (octave) mandolas tend to have pretty short scale lengths, at most 20" rather than the 23.5" of this one.
> 
> This is a really classy one, too. Herwiga Solist were the top brand for mandolas in Germany, so I would expect a mandocello from them to be excellent.


Thanks Martin,

I just noticed that this is a 5 course instrument. Maybe a 'cello octave hybrid? Seems like a good price. I'm tempted to go for it.

----------


## Eugene

Indeed. What is known amongst "classically" minded folk as liuto cantabile tuned C-G-d-a-e'.

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## Martin Jonas

Oh, I hadn't noticed the five courses. Liuto Cantabile it is. Tasty!

Good luck, Craig!

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Martin Style 5 in funky condition. I have a feeling it will be underbid. Still it would need some work -- some serious top cracks and who knows what else.

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## CraigF

Thanks for the info guys. It does indeed look tasty. Question for those that have imported goods. I've never bought anything from overseas at this amount. Are duties due? If so, how is this usually handled?

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## Jim Garber

I assume you are in the US? I had a real nightmare getting one of my Calace's from South Africa. I ended up paying all sorts of duties and high shipping costs. Ironically the seller(a guitar dealer) ended up in the US a few weeks later and could have brought it with him had he known.

Also had some ebay-won sheet music returned to the French seller by US customs. Make sure you have all your ducks in a row, so to speak and find out in advance what problems you may encounter. As I said, some of it may be US Customs problems. Also some Euro sellers do not accept Paypal so that may present an additional problem.

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## Jim Garber

> Nice-looking Fratelli Vinaccia in Kansas.


Over and out at $2835.

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## CraigF

> I assume you are in the US? I had a real nightmare getting one of my Calace's from South Africa. I ended up paying all sorts of duties and high shipping costs. Ironically the seller(a guitar dealer) ended up in the US a few weeks later and could have brought it with him had he known.
> 
> Also had some ebay-won sheet music returned to the French seller by US customs. Make sure you have all your ducks in a row, so to speak and find out in advance what problems you may encounter. As I said, some of it may be US Customs problems. Also some Euro sellers do not accept Paypal so that may present an additional problem.


Yeah, in US, sorry, forgot to mention that. I've searched for info on this before and found information to be not very helpful on how duties are collected and how much they are.

Strange about the sheet music. I've ordered small items no problem. I would guess the seller did not mark the box. It needs to contain info on the contents as well as value.

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## Martin Jonas

> That Vinaccia looks to be in beautiful condition, except for the few minor bits shown in the detail photos. I would have thought it should be at least $2500, possibly more.


I'm getting better at this.

Of course, it went back to Europe. You Americans really have to start bidding on the fine mandolins that are already in your country, and then you don't have to worry about US Customs...

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Another, plainer 1892 Vinaccia. I noticed that something was wrong with this picture:



The bridge is upside down.

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## pabear

Jim,

What's your approx. on this mandolin's selling price??? You been real close on the last 5 to 7 mandolins...

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## Jim Garber

Actually I have been underestimating lately -- to preserve my sterling reputation. I would say this one is in the same range as the last. Maybe a little less since the bridge is upside down. Anyway the equivalent of $2500, I would say.

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## pabear

it has an open crack in back as well.........

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## Martin Jonas

> it has an open crack in back as well.........


That crack in the back is trivial. Much easier to fix than a crack in the soundboard. Jim, how much money do you charge to turn a bridge around? Other than as indication that the previous owner didn't know what he's doing, I wouldn't put too much significance on that.

This is the same seller that sold me my best Ceccherini. I think my transaction with him was his first mandolin sale on Ebay -- he specialises mostly in violins and flutes -- but he's had quite a few very nice ones since then. He's a professional instrument dealer and buys up instruments in local "live" auctions and then resells them on Ebay.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

A de Meglio which is currently very cheap. Missing at least two frets and the bridge saddle, though, without this beign mentioned by the seller.

Here is another one of those anonymous French (?) bowls with friction tuners presumably intended for the old mixed stringing rather than steel strings.

Not a bowlback, but this may nevertheless be a good place for this strange creature: violin-shape, fretted, eight strings, Portuguese-style tuners, anybody's guess whether this was intended to be plucked or bowed.

Martin

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## brunello97

> A de Meglio which is currently very cheap. Missing at least two frets and the bridge saddle, though, without this beign mentioned by the seller.


Thanks, Martin, my head has been deep in work the last few weeks and things have been flying by me. I missed a DeMeglio earlier by a whisker. Maybe my fortune will change with this one. I've been looking for a 'better' bowlback for awhile.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> Not a bowlback, but this may nevertheless be a good place for this strange creature: violin-shape, fretted, eight strings, Portuguese-style tuners, anybody's guess whether this was intended to be plucked or bowed.


That is a strange one. The very radiussed fretboard would say bowed to me. But usually those bowed zithers have feet on the back to play them on a table. This one does not. Bern -- is that Swiss?

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## Neil Gladd

> Here is another one of those anonymous French (?) bowls with friction tuners presumably intended for the old mixed stringing rather than steel strings.


That one is tempting. I may have to buy it so that I can play duets wth Eugene.

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## Arto

I asked the seller of the <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-huge-old-mandola-mandolin-guitar-or-Lute-herwiga_W0QQitemZ170159509031QQihZ007QQcateg
%3Cbr%3EoryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZView  Item" target="_blank">the Herwiga liuto</a> some questions. He answered he does not play himself and could not comment the playablity, but the distance between 12th fret and strings is "about 0,4cm". Maybe a bit high, but I don´t how these big beasts usually are. The tuners work. (I asked that, too.)

I would love to have a bowl back liuto, and the price/quality ratio will probably be quite good, as these German instruments are not so collectable. TOO bad I´m out of money, when quality instruments surface at reasonable prices. First Martin´s 10 string Ceccherini and now this. I´ll go and sulk in some dark room...  Hope some of us gets this one.

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## Eugene

> Originally Posted by  (martinjonas @ Oct. 24 2007, 09:34)
> 
> Here is another one of those anonymous French (?) bowls with friction tuners presumably intended for the old mixed stringing rather than steel strings.
> 
> 
> That one is tempting. #I may have to buy it so that I can play duets wth Eugene.


Sorry. You'll also need to invest in twisted brass harpsichord wire to join the old and freakish mandoclan.

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## Eugene

By the way, local luthier Chad Neal has my own mid-19th-c. French mandolin for a re-peg and new bridge (in addition to my speculative vihuela de mano for a whole new soundboard). #I think the craftsmanship on his own baroque lutes rivals some of the best, even characters like Barber & Harris. #I really think he'll be one to watch if he can manage to up his production. #I'm debating having him build me a 7-course, mandolino-like "leuto"/mandora/thingie...once my 5-course guitar is finished...if ever...maybe...

----------


## brunello97

Arto,

I can empathize. The ebay is such a curious format. Amazing or at least interesting things pop out of nowhere, from anywhere and without warning. And no consideration for the schedule of paychecks, mortgage payments, car repairs, taxes, recent mandolin purchases etc. etc. (Not to mention family responsibility, patient wife, Irish tighwadness, etc.) It actually is kind of fun. Still, it remains the catalyst for a lot of interesting discussions and snappy repartee. 

I hope you find a wad of dough in a pair of pants hanging in the back of your closet somewhere. 

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> Martin Style 5 in funky condition. I have a feeling it will be underbid. Still it would need some work -- some serious top cracks and who knows what else.


Strange i could have sworn that this one was over $1500 last night. Ebay used to have a place that indicated whether bids were cancelled but i can;t seem to find that. Hmmmm... maybe I was dreaming.

----------


## Arto

Thanks Mick. # 
Arto

----------


## Eugene

> I asked the seller of the <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-huge-old-mandola-mandolin-guitar-or-Lute-herwiga_W0QQitemZ170159509031QQihZ007QQcateg
> 
> %3Cbr%3EoryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZView  Item" target="_blank">the Herwiga liuto</a> some questions. He answered he does not play himself and could not comment the playablity, but the distance between 12th fret and strings is "about 0,4cm". Maybe a bit high, but I don´t how these big beasts usually are. The tuners work. (I asked that, too.)
> 
> I would love to have a bowl back liuto, and the price/quality ratio will probably be quite good, as these German instruments are not so collectable. TOO bad I´m out of money, when quality instruments surface at reasonable prices. First Martin´s 10 string Ceccherini and now this. I´ll go and sulk in some dark room...  Hope some of us gets this one.


Well, assuming o***e, e***d, and f***f weren't any of us, I took a low-ball shot at this one before leaving for my all-day meeting to the north. f***f still has the high bid. Ah well...

----------


## CraigF

I GOT IT!! I got the Liuto for $860, woohoo!!

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## brunello97

Craig, that is great news! Congratulations. Is anyone else surprised that there were so few bids on this? I hope it turns out to be in truly fine shape for you. It seems like this may have slipped under the wire and you have gotten a nice deal. Please let us all know how it is when it arrives. Nice way to start a day, eh?

Mick

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## Arto

"Hope some of us gets this one." (me)

"I got it!! I got the Liuto for $860, woohoo!!" (Craig) 

That's great! Congratulations! Now we are all waiting for more pics, playing impressions, and sound clips!


 Arto

----------


## Alex Timmerman

High Graig,

You have bought a very nice Liuto cantabile! Herwiga build his best instruments of the Mandolin family in the Roman style. Something that is clearly visable in this beautiful teardrop shaped instrument. He even inserted the 25 [!] frets on the radius fingerboard. This is a small detail but a very special feature and one that is not often copied by non Roman makers. 
This herwiga also has a nice swinging stringlength given by the seller as "approx.: 23,5 inch / 59,5cm" and that is very comfortable for your left hand. The stringlengths of the Liuto moderno, as this instrument was also named, do vary from c. 58cm up to c. 69cm. 

When you string your instrument with Fisoma (Lenzner) strings that are especially made for the Liuto cantabile, I am sure it will sound just great!
A very nice bargain, congrats! 


Best regards,

Alex

----------


## Fliss

> I GOT IT!! I got the Liuto for $860, woohoo!!


Congratulations! 

Fliss

----------


## CraigF

Alex, Thank you very much for the information on strings. That was going to be my next question.  Would you recommend the light or medium gauge?

Arto, My digicam is broken, but I will probably get a new one. I will be new to this instrument, so sound clips maybe a bit later  I did play some guitar in high school, so between the two maybe I can figure out fingering quickly. This will be good to improve my bass clef reading.

Thanks, Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

Congratulations, Craig. That looks like a good one and at a good price.

----------


## Mike Buesseler

Could someone please explain that single second string on Craig's instrument? How does that work/make sense?

----------


## Martin Jonas

Just a missing string. The instrument has ten strings, in five courses of two strings each, tuned CGDAE (low to high), i.e. combining the ranges of the mandocello and the octave mandolin. You can see in the photo of the headstock that one of the A strings must have broken and is now missing.

Congratulations to Craig, anyway -- I'm very jealous as I'm sure this is a great instrument at a fabulous price!

Regarding strings, I would go for the mediums unless Alex recommends otherwise: your liuto is relatively short scale, meaning heavier gauges, and it does not look particularly delicate. If their mandolin gauges are anything to go by, Fisoma's idea of "medium" is in any case rather light compared to other manufacturers.

Martin

----------


## trebleclef528

Congratulations Craig, I already have a top of the range Herwiga Mandola (The half onion shaped one)which was completely restored by "Knorr" in Germany (I actually think Knorr was a pupil of Herwiga and still makes a mandola in the Herwiga style). I also have a Herwiga mandolin which is the same "half onion shape".... very rare.

What i can tell you is that my two instruments are outstanding quality and sound..... The Liuto looks to be of the same quality.... perhaps when it arrives you can post some pictures......... I think you have got yourself a very rare specimen, I've spoken to a few of my German contacts and only one can every remember hearing about a Herwiga luito, but has never seen one... well done once again... I think it is a complete bargain and even if it costs a bit to bring it up to it's full potential I'm sure it will be worth it.
Best wishes
Ian

----------


## CraigF

Thanks Jim and everyone.

Martin, thanks. I was thinking the same shorter scale = mediums.

Ian, It would be nice to have the instrument looked at over there. There isn't a lot of bowlback repair expertise here in the US. I think Eugene knows of some though. And yes, I think I got quite a good deal. I still can't believe my luck.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

Yes, medium for this short stringlength is fine; and Herwiga instruments are quite strong and well build so there won't be a problem to take the medium set. 

Best,

Alex.

----------


## CraigF

Thanks Alex. I will get some mediums.

I may try and get the seller have Herr Knorr look at it before sending it over. Thanks for that info Ian.

----------


## Eugene

Congrats, Craig! I'm gald it went to somebody here, where I can expect my eager anticipation for a full report on craftsmanship, condition, and tone to bear fruit.

----------


## CraigF

Thanks Eugene, if you ever get to Florida, I'll let you play it.

----------


## brunello97

The Herwiga story confirms for me two things: 1, the mutual support and enthusiasm shown here for one another. (I was as happy for Craig as I would be for....at least I don't have to write a check right now and explain it to the lovely wife.) 2, how curious things sometimes go with the ebay bidding. 

Martin, you might be closest to the pulse of ebay.de that we have here. Any thoughts on why this went as it did? Was it a lucky fluke that just fell in Craig's favor? Did the reputed action scare folks off? Even if the Herwiga label might not be so well known internationally the photos displayed an exceptional instrument. $860 might get one a decent production import design repro of classic US fare. This appears to be a rare instrument with high quality workmanship and very good credentials. 

These are the kind of deals that keep me slogging through the ebay bayou. The vicarious pleasures are welcome as well.

Mick

----------


## CraigF

Mick, I am wondering the same thing. How did the seller get such a gem, not know what he had and offer it at such a price? I don't browse ebay that often. I did a search for mandolas one day and this popped up. My head is still spinning, I just can't believe my good fortune.

----------


## Eugene

> Thanks Eugene, if you ever get to Florida, I'll let you play it.


Careful, I might hold you to that! I end up visiting most US coastal states (at least occasionally) on the day job.

----------


## Arto

Alex: "The stringlengths of the Liuto moderno, as this instrument was also named, do vary from c. 58cm up to c. 69cm."

That´s interesting. Sounds awful lot of variance for one spesific instrument. Does somebody know what string length Calace uses for their mandocellos/liutos, or Pandini? (I have seen a nice Pandini "mandolin family picture" somewhere.) For comparison, what is the normal string length for cellos? Do they vary a lot, too?

I wonder what kind of monster paws one must have to play an instrument tuned in fifths and with 69 cm string length?!

thanks, Arto

----------


## trebleclef528

Why did the Herwiga Liuto go so cheap?

I think one of the reasons was that many people simply did not know what it was.... and clearly from the sellers description (the seller is fairly experienced in selling instruments), he did not realise what it was.

Also it's possible that perhaps people who did know what it was, felt that it was more of an orchestral, ensemble instrument and did not bid...... and perhaps the "German Mandolin Orchestra people", were simply not looking...........

whatever the reason it is definately a bargain!

----------


## Eugene

> That´s interesting. Sounds awful lot of variance for one spesific instrument. Does somebody know what string length Calace uses for their mandocellos/liutos, or Pandini?


Last catalogue I've seen, Calace was using 61 cm.

----------


## Jim Garber

According to Pandini's site the liuto he built uses a 59cm scale (diapason).

----------


## CraigF

> Careful, I might hold you to that! I end up visiting most US coastal states (at least occasionally) on the day job.


No problem. I would love to get your opinion on it. I'm fairly new to the mando world. Most of my musical background is brass. I'm about half an hour from Disney. 

That goes for any of you. The people here have been so helpful and supportive. I would have never known enough about the instrument to actually bid on it without the help of those here. You guys are the best.

----------


## CraigF

> According to Pandini's site the liuto he built uses a 59cm scale (diapason).


Those Pandini's are sweet. I want one of each.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here's a few choice ones currently on the auction site from the same seller, all priced on the high side:

1905 Embergher Tipo 3 -- Top looks like it has funky repairs. 

1903 Calace

1910 Garafalo

These were all on eBay in June of this year. I assume that nothing sold at these high prices.

----------


## Martin Jonas

This one is interesting: a 10-stringer by Angara & d'Isanto. It has the same 3-3-2-2 string configuration as the 10-string Ceccherini I've sold, and unlike mine this one is still fully strung, so one can see how this was meant to look. Pretty good condition, and in this condition may just about be worth the substantial starting bid.

What's bizarre is that this one has a label at the back of the headstock from a music shop in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. My Ceccherini 10-stringer also had a headstock label from a (different) music shop in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. So, was Newcastle some strange nexus of this kind of setup? Maybe one orchestra or one teacher who thought they were a good idea and makers in Naples were making them specially for this market? Questions we shall never know the answer for.

Also quite nice, and much cheaper: this Roman-style Puglisi Reale.

A 1961 Calace.

Martin

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Originally Posted by  (martinjonas @ Oct. 24 2007, 09:34)
> 
> Here is another one of those anonymous French (?) bowls with friction tuners presumably intended for the old mixed stringing rather than steel strings.
> 
> 
> That one is tempting. I may have to buy it so that I can play duets wth Eugene.


I bid this one up to 100, but it got away. It didn't go for much more than that, though.

----------


## chip

I just picked up a bowl back with a mother of pearl butterfly inlaid into tortoiseshell below the oval hole. Mother of pearl all around the edges and a 1 inpressed on the back of the headstock. Label long gone. Any clues as to who might have made it? Who is pearl by the way?

----------


## Arto

"Those Pandini's are sweet. I want one of each."

So do I! About the Pandini liutos: there seems to be slight differences between the liuto presented alone, and the one in the group picture. The string lenghts are different (61 and 59 cm) and the group example has neck-body joint at 11th fret as opposed to 12th fret. I have the impression that sound hole location is a bit different, too.

As sweet as those Pandini liutos are (has anybody heard them played?), I´d still prefer this to everything else I have seen (special style Calace liuto, Raffaele Sr`s own?; R.Calace Jr; and Alison Stephens):

----------


## Jim Garber

The Munier Orchestra of Philadelphia has a Calace Liuto. Here is David Betts who plays this one. The neck is quite hefty -- not for the faint of heart.

----------


## Arto

Thank Jim. I think you have posted this before, but did not save the picture that time. If I remember right, the sculpted-rib back was gorgeous, too. Do you have that picture?

You mentioned the not-for-faint-hearted neck. Did you play this instrument?

thanks, Arto

----------


## Jim Garber

I tried to play it but I am not much of a 'cello player and I did not have much time to do so. Here is the back.

----------


## Arto

Thanks Jim! That sure is a beauty. I especially like how the colour of the ribs varies a bit from one to another - wonderfully lively effect. Wonder how many ribs there are, I counted 40 from the picture but there must be somewhat more.

----------


## Arto

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-Luigi-Embergher-tipo-A-del-1925_W0QQitemZ270178912540QQihZ017QQcategoryZ10179  QQs

sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Embergher tipo A</a> at eBay Italy, on sale by our friend Ralf.

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-del-1904-Maratea-a-doghe-scanalate_W0QQitemZ300163393619QQihZ020QQcategoryZ  10179
QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">A nice Maratea</a> with sculpted ribs, seems to be in good condition.

----------


## Jim Garber

Arto:
 Here is a larger pic of just the bowl. Good luck counting.

----------


## Jim Garber

> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-Luigi-Embergher-tipo-A-del-1925_W0QQitemZ270178912540QQihZ017QQcategoryZ10179  QQs
> 
> 
> sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Embergher tipo A</a> at eBay Italy, on sale by our friend Ralf.


Of course, you just views that at ebay.it. It was for sale in Belgium. Interesting that those tuners look just like the ones on my Tipo A only in black plastic/bakelite. Maybe mine are original?

----------


## Martin Jonas

Jim: I seem to remember that when we were discussing your Tipo A, Ralf said that Embergher used those tuners in the 1920s, but not as early as 1913.

It's gone to Japan.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

> I just picked up a bowl back with a mother of pearl butterfly inlaid into tortoiseshell below the oval hole. Mother of pearl all around the edges and a 1 inpressed on the back of the headstock. Label long gone. Any clues as to who might have made it? Who is pearl by the way?


Chip, it appears that in the usual excitement around here your question got unintentionally overlooked. Butterfly scratchplates are seen on both American and Italian made bowlbacks, by a variety of makers. Posting a picture or two might help folks narrow it down some.

Mick

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Arto and others interested,

Since you were wondering _"what kind of monster paws one must have to play an instrument tuned in fifths and with 69 cm string length"_, I thought that this perhaps could be best shown by a photo of this largest model among the Liuto cantabiles types.


Enjoy and best regards,

Alex

----------


## Bob A

Perhaps it ought to be labelled "Liuto cantabile on Alex"? I keep looking for some sort of support cable.

----------


## Eugene

Cantabile!? More like grosso!

----------


## CraigF

Wow, that is quite an instrument.

----------


## Arto

Alex, that´s huge! I would have been sure the instrument is a mandolone. 69cm scale on this? Tuned like standard liuto? Who´s the maker, and when?

thanks, Arto

----------


## trebleclef528

Embergher 5 bis, he's hoping for 8000 Euros.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Embergher 5 bis, he's hoping for 8000 Euros.


Ian, is he a friend of yours? He better have some better photos if he wants it to reach full value. Then again all he needs is two insane folks. Should be entertaining.

----------


## pabear

If he gets half that he be lucky!!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## pabear

maybe i should up the bid to 260

----------


## Jim Garber

> If he gets half that he be lucky!!!!!!!!!!!


I dunno... if it is what he says it is I would not be surprised if it gets close to that. You have a tipo B right now with an asking price of $3950. 5 bis is pretty rare and most folks who not let them go. I say well over 5000 for sure.

----------


## pabear

the typo B has been listed and relisted before... still no bid or takers anyways. Don't you have a typo B Jim or is it an A u have???

----------


## Martin Jonas

I wouldn't think 8000 Euro is too much for a 5bis in good condition, although it's difficult to tell with so few ever coming up to market. This has been the model of choice for professional concert soloists for about a century now, from Ranieri to Hugo d'Alton to Alison Stephens, Tove Flensburg, Ralf Leenen and Sebastiaan de Grebber now.

Martin

----------


## trebleclef528

I don't know the seller but I emailed and asked how much he was expecting, I think it will go for around 6000 Euro.

In the meantime #<a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/INEGUALIABILE-MANDOLINO-ALFREDO-PRIVITERA-MADE-ITALY_W0QQitemZ250182102621QQihZ015QQcatego
ryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here</a> is a strange one. My Italian ain't so good but i think the seller says it's a Piccolo mandolin, but from the scale it looks more like a "Piccolo Mandola"

----------


## Jim Garber

> In the meantime <a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/INEGUALIABILE-MANDOLINO-ALFREDO-PRIVITERA-MADE-ITALY_W0QQitemZ250182102621QQihZ015QQcatego
> 
> ryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here</a> is a strange one. My Italian ain't so good but i think the seller says it's a Piccolo mandolin, but from the scale it looks more like a "Piccolo Mandola"


That looks like a baglama, at least in proportions.



More info here. Perhaps Victor can chime in here.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Yes, an Italianized Greek baglama, hence the (odd) FOUR courses. I sure wouldn't buy it as a _mandolin_, and, if I were looking for a quality _baglama_, ehm... THIS wouldn't be it. # 

Honesty can be harsh; sorry...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

> the typo B has been listed and relisted before... still no bid or takers anyways. Don't you have a typo B Jim or is it an A u have???


Brad, both Martin and I have tipo As, simple student models. The tipo B is overpriced -- that price is right for a number 3 in excellent condition, I would think. 

There are also a few tipo As and Bs at some dealers in Europe that have been there for sometime due to the high prices.

----------


## JeffD

Actually that baglama looks, in proportion, like the small spoons that came in my demitasse/espresso set.

----------


## Jim Garber

"The seller ended this listing early because the item is no longer available for sale."

Embergher 5bis

I wonder how much they were offered for it.
---------
I heard today from the seller. He is accepting offers right now. Too bad I don't have a wad of cash.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is a nice-looking Carlo Loveri. This looks identical to one that I bought and setup a couple of years ago for a former member of our ensemble, and which was a very nice instrument. You can't see it in these pictures, but this one would have the characteristic "exhaust vent" holes in the bowl either side of the tailpiece.

Interesting (not necessarily in a good way) soundhole on this one.

Something rather unusual (but not really desirable) here: a bowlback 12-string 4-course mandolin built like one of those German guitar lutes, with soundhole rose and fixed pin bridge.

1961 Calace.

Martin

----------


## Bob A

I don't think I could get away with the naked broad. Maybe Neil could find a place in his mandobabe collection?

While I'd been interested in a Loveri (though now I'm way too overwhelmed with instruments to pursue one), I've noticed that there are two distinct types: the ones usually found in the UK, with a De Meglio style pickguard, and a more traditinal style with the more-or-less batwing type. (I'd emailed Carlo M more than once about one of the latter he had on his website, but he never replied. Now it's gone, to my relief).

Have any of the latter type been seen in England?

----------


## Fliss

> 1961 Calace.


My birth-year   If it was less ornate, I'd be almost tempted  

Fliss

----------


## Linda Binder

Wow! #The tiger striped tortoise shell on the Calace is really striking. #Oh, go for it Fliss!

----------


## brunello97

> Wow! The tiger striped tortoise shell on the Calace is really striking. Oh, go for it Fliss!


Hmm, this one even crosses over my Puglisi-loving threshold....Quite confectionary.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Oh, go for it Mick!

----------


## Fliss

> Oh, go for it Mick!


 Yes, go for it, it's too fancy for me! 

Fliss

----------


## Linda Binder

Gee, maybe my tackyness detector is on the fritz (tacky-ometer?) I kind of like the striped tortoise shell. #At least it doesn't have the garden of eden inlayed on the fretboard.

----------


## CraigF

Alex,

I can't find anyone who has the Fisoma Liuto Cantabile strings. I found places that have the Mandolin/Mandola ones but not Liuto or even Mandoloncello strings. Does Fisoma sell direct or do you know where I can obtain them?

Thanks

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## Jim Garber

> I can't find anyone who has the Fisoma Liuto Cantabile strings. I found places that have the Mandolin/Mandola ones but not Liuto or even Mandoloncello strings. Does Fisoma sell direct or do you know where I can obtain them?


I checked on the sites Saitenkatalog.de and on Trekel.de, both of which carry Fisoma/Lenzner strings. You might write to them. Be aware that liuto is Italian for lute so you don't end up with lute strings. 

You could also try Dogal Calace strings, tho I am not sure where you can buy them and you would prob add the high e.

Good luck...

----------


## CraigF

Thanks Jim. I did search both of those German sites. Saitenkatalog is where I found the Mandolin/Mandola but no Mandoloncello or Liuto. I may send them an e-mail if I can't find another source.

----------


## Jim Garber

Check out this Vinaccia repro by Chris Allen and Sabina Kormylo. A mere £3000 will get you this beauty.

----------


## etbarbaric

I was corresponding with Chris Allen way back in 1999, just after he made this beauty. #That was before his Website, and I still have some of the hardcopy photos he sent across the pond. #He made the copy as a commission for an English mandolin player, as I recall. I also recall that he said it was *way* more work than he had anticipated. #Chris' prices seem very reasonable in general, but it wouldn't surprise me if he'd up the price of that Vinaccia copy a little.

Best,

Eric

----------


## onthefiddle

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Neapolitan-bowlback-mandolin_W0QQitemZ300173235316QQihZ020QQcategoryZ1  0179QQssPageNameZWDV
WQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">An electric bowlback</a> (ouch!)

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

de Meglio clone. Looks nice!

----------


## Martin Jonas

Another Ceccherini. #This one looks pretty identical to mine (as shown in my brand-new avatar left), but is in somewhat worse condition. #Same seller as mine, too. #Action is a bit high, but it should be possible to adjust by lowering the saddle. #That tailpiece cover is not original -- Ceccherini used a completely different style. #I would think the starting price is pretty close to the reasonable market value based on condition and previous prices. #Of course, I still think that Ceccherinis are vastly undervalued in general if measured on musical value.

Here is an interesting-looking Roman mandolin by Pietro Valente. #Clearly very similar in design to an Embergher No. 1.

Rapidly moving down the food chain, this German bowlback is proof that not all mandolins with fluted ribs are actually desirable.

Here is an actual Embergher, a rosewood Tipo A from 1926. #Looking at the wood used for the soundboard, this is another example of something I've noticed before, namely that the 1920s student models had much lower grades of tonewood than the 1910s, like Jim's or mine. #This one has wide and irregular grain. #Looks to be in reasonable condition, though.

A bit of a curiosity here: a Catania-made bouzouki looking exactly like a typcial Sicilian mandolin with a long neck stuck on. #I think I'd rather have a Greek-made one.

How about this for a really exhaustive in-depth item description...

Martin

----------


## CraigF

Well, my Liuto Cantabile arrived today, sooner than I expected. Body looks pretty good, scratches and worn spots. No cracks that I can see. It looks like it hasnt been played in a while. The strings have some corrosion. The E strings, which look to be Guitar strings as they have ball ends, are rusty. But I figured the strings would be in poor shape. Tuners will need some work. They are pretty worn. I dont think its worth trying to tune it up with the current strings. There are a few spare strings in the case but they look a bit rough as well. No pics to show yet, my camera is broken.

Now, I need to get some new strings and find someone to do some work on it. Is there anyone in the US that someone would recommend?

----------


## Jim Garber

> Is there anyone in the US that someone would recommend?


Where are you located? I can't recall what this one needed but it would depend on how extensive the work.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Craig, if you can't get hold of actual liuto strings, I'd suggest you get a set of mandocello strings and add suitably-gauged E strings. #As your scale length is roughly twice that of a mandolin, using the same gauges as for mandolin E strings should be fine. #Bernunzio have Dogal Calace mandocello strings here for $39. #You liuto has a slightly shorter scale than most mandocellos (59cm instead of around 63cm), but I would think it should be fine. #



Thomastik also make flatwound mandocello and liuto strings, which are for sale at juststrings.com here for $57.43. #Juststrings seem a bit confused about these and call them "Thomastik-Infeld Octave Mandola (European Mandocello)", but if you look at the picture of the string package, you see that it actually says "liuto" and that it appears to be a 10 string pack.

Much cheaper, of course, is the d'Addario mandocello set, at $14.68, by far the most widely-available mandocello strings.

For all of these, you may want to get some vernier calipers to check the gauges of what you have on at the moment, in order to try to match them as closely as you can. #The d'Addario 'cello strings in particular are very heavy (0.073" on the low C!) and the Herwiga may be designed with something lighter in mind. #If all fails, order single strings to make up your own set.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on!

Martin

----------


## CraigF

Jim, I'm in Florida. But don't let geography be a barrier. I doubt I will find anyone within driving distance. I may just plan to make a trip to Germany and let the Herwiga expert work on it.

Martin, thanks for that info. I had looked into alternatives. Dogal probably has a Liuto set as well. I was going to ask Bernunzio.

I've looked over the instrument some more. The frets need work as well. Some of them are loose. I tried tuning up the C course and found the 13th and 14th frets are loose and stick up so I can't fret the 12th to test bridge placement. For now, I will just try and center the octave harmonic node over the 12th fret as best as possible.

----------


## trebleclef528

Quote: "Jim, I'm in Florida. But don't let geography be a barrier. I doubt I will find anyone within driving distance. I may just plan to make a trip to Germany and let the Herwiga expert work on it."

Hi Craig,
There are probably a few German Luthiers up to the job and I may have mentioned earlier that Knorr still makes a replica of the Herwiga Mandola ( I think Knorr was a student of the "Herwiga empire")..... However I know that Knorr is extremely busy and was recently turning down a lot of repair work as he had to concentrate on the 3 year waiting list he has for his soloist mandolins...

He may however make an exception for your instrument... but it would take a while. Last year I was lucky enough to find a mandolin in the same shape (onion back shape) as the
herwiga Mandola, Knorr said it was a very rare instrument and he would do the repairs... but that it would take 9 months!, I'm in no hurry for it so i let him do the work.

Barbara and I can speak to Knorr if you decide to go with him, he does speak a little English but not much.

Best wishes
Ian

----------


## CraigF

> Hi Craig,
> There are probably a few German Luthiers up to the job and I may have mentioned earlier that Knorr still makes a replica of the Herwiga Mandola ( I think Knorr was a student of the "Herwiga empire")..... However I know that Knorr is extremely busy and was recently turning down a lot of repair work as he had to concentrate on the 3 year waiting list he has for his soloist mandolins...
> 
> He may however make an exception for your instrument... but it would take a while. Last year I was lucky enough to find a mandolin in the same shape (onion back shape) as the
> herwiga Mandola, Knorr said it was a very rare instrument and he would do the repairs... but that it would take 9 months!, I'm in no hurry for it so i let him do the work.
> 
> Barbara and I can speak to Knorr if you decide to go with him, he does speak a little English but not much.
> 
> Best wishes
> Ian


Thanks Ian. I figured he would be quite busy. Good luthiers generally have a waiting list. 

If I can get it evaluated here in the US to see if any body work needs to done. If so, I'm not sure anyone here can do that. But if it's just the tuners, bridge/nut adjustments and refretting, there are those that can do that here.

I am not in a big rush either and I'd like the work to be done right. If I can't get it done here, I will let you know and have you contact him. It will give me an excuse for 2 trips to Europe.

----------


## CraigF

I think I have the Thomastik strings figured out. If you look under Lute at Just Strings there is another set which looks the same as the Mandoloncello set but are more expensive and it explicitly states it as a 10 string set. So I think the one Martin listed is the 8 string Mandoloncello and the "Lute" is the 10 string Liuto Cantabile set. I also found some on e-bay where the picture shows them as medium gauge. The Thomastiks are known to have more tension than typical round wounds, so I am somewhat reluctant to try them.

----------


## royboy

jgarber, how you do that with your fingers?

----------


## Jim Garber

> I think I have the Thomastik strings figured out. If you look under Lute at Just Strings there is another set which looks the same as the Mandoloncello set but are more expensive and it explicitly states it as a 10 string set. So I think the one Martin listed is the 8 string Mandoloncello and the "Lute" is the 10 string Liuto Cantabile set.


If I were you, I would check with juststrings first before ordering. I have a feeling that there is some confusion there or that they may not be available at all. I think they did not have the correct packaging for them. And the lute strings may be for actual lute for all we know. 

I also checked on the T-I site and there are no mandocello strings (or liuto cantabile) listed there. Perhaps they were discontinued. 

That chord in my avatar is the Jethro "demented" chord.

----------


## Martin Jonas

I'm pretty sure that the string pack shown on the juststrings site is for actual liuto cantabile, as it says "C V" on it, which I read as "5th course, tuned to C", the lowest string of normal liuto tuning. However, I also agree with Jim that you'd better check as there is no knowing whether the picture shown is the same as the set they have (possibly) in stock. For what it's worth, I've never heard of "octave mandola" and "European mandocello" being synonymous as suggested by Juststrings -- a mandocello, or mandoloncello, in Europe is exactly the same as in the US.

Whether you like flatwound strings is of course up to you. Herwiga "onion" mandolas were arguably the archetype of the modern German bowlback, the quintessential flatwound classical instrument, but your instrument appears rather more Italianate than that and may well be better suited to the sound of the roundwound Dogals or the polished bronze Fisoma/Lenzners.

Martin

----------


## CraigF

Jim & Martin,

Yes, Just Strings is a bit confused. But as I said, I found on <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Thomastik-Infeld-185-Medium-Lute-Mandocello-Strings_W0QQitemZ160157664920QQihZ006QQcategor
yZ20987QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">e-bay</a> the same 185 5-course Mandocello set with what looks like newer packaging for about the same price as their 185 "Lute" set. Unfortunately, TI does not give details on their web site. Their website is a horrible design. 

I sent an e-mail to Bernunzio to see if Dogal has a Liuto set. I'm sure they do.

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Alte-italienische-Mandoline-CATANIA-ANNO-1914-ein-Traum_W0QQitemZ330188940942QQihZ014QQcat
egoryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Embergher-like Puglisi</a>

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Could anyone provide info on <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Antike-Marcelli-Starkton-Mandoline-Patent_W0QQitemZ150185409818QQihZ005QQcategoryZ215  91QQs
sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a>?

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Another <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Kleine-Antike-Lauten-Mandoline-mit-Vogel-Einlegearbeit_W0QQitemZ120185633147QQihZ002QQcate

goryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">strange one.</a>

I'd guess it was broken and after that "repaired".

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Another <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Kleine-Antike-Lauten-Mandoline-mit-Vogel-Einlegearbeit_W0QQitemZ120185633147QQihZ002QQcate
> 
> 
> goryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">strange one.</a>


That one belongs under former bowlbacks, now less of note. I like the dove inlay, though.

----------


## CraigF

I now have some pics of my Liuto. I started a thread in the post-a-pic section here.

----------


## trebleclef528

> Could anyone provide info on <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Antike-Marcelli-Starkton-Mandoline-Patent_W0QQitemZ150185409818QQihZ005QQcategoryZ215  91QQs
> 
> 
> sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a>?


Yes, Place 6 eggs inside and boil for up to three minutes... or longer depending on your taste.

----------


## Fliss

Just cropped up on e-bay UK, two mandolins from the same seller, both in need of some tlc:

A <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1895-De-Meglio-Bowlback-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ190176610424QQihZ009QQcategoryZ1  0179QQssPageName


ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">De Meglio</a> 

And a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1896-Michele-Maratea-Bowlback-Mandolin-F-R_W0QQitemZ190176610444QQihZ009QQcategoryZ10179QQ


ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Michele Maratea</a> - I can't work out what's going on with the peghead on this one, it looks as if something's broken off?

Fliss

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

> Originally Posted by  (plami @ Nov. 21 2007, 13:10)
> 
> Could anyone provide info on <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Antike-Marcelli-Starkton-Mandoline-Patent_W0QQitemZ150185409818QQihZ005QQcategoryZ215  91QQs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a>?
> 
> ...


 I was thinking about something like that...

Greetings to Scotland!
Plamen

----------


## Eugene

> Now, I need to get some new strings and find someone to do some work on it. Is there anyone in the US that someone would recommend?


Tom Crandall at Matt Umanov Guitars in NYC does great work, but Umanov-sanctioned repair can be pricey. It sounds like your piece only needs a random assembly of relatively trivial jobs. With no major repairs, Umanov's might stay affordable. If you do go that route, tell Tom that Eugene says "Howdy"...and is still waiting...waiting...

----------


## CraigF

Thanks for the info Eugene.

----------


## Bob A

And Eugene is not the only one waiting, and waiting . . . .

Jim De Cava (in Connecticut)was recommended to me by a fellow member of the Order of the Bowl, and does good work at a less glacial pace, though what with the possibility of global overheating a new metaphor may be needed. However, his minimum is $250, so if the instrument in question is not in need of that level of repair, another luthier might be in order.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Could anyone provide info on <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Antike-Marcelli-Starkton-Mandoline-Patent_W0QQitemZ150185409818QQihZ005QQcategoryZ215  91QQs
> 
> sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a>?


Other than boiling eggs...

I have one other Dressola patent one in my jpeg collections -- similar but not exact.

----------


## CraigF

> And Eugene is not the only one waiting, and waiting . . . .
> 
> Jim De Cava (in Connecticut)was recommended to me by a fellow member of the Order of the Bowl, and does good work at a less glacial pace, though what with the possibility of global overheating a new metaphor may be needed. However, his minimum is $250, so if the instrument in question is not in need of that level of repair, another luthier might be in order.


Thanks Bob. I would think the repairs on this would exceed $250. When I get new strings on it, I will see how the playability is. There may be things it needs that I don't see.

----------


## Eugene

> And Eugene is not the only one waiting, and waiting . . . .


However, Tom should move at a good pace if you access his labors via Umanov's proper channels. It's the small band of older, direct customers who are waiting for hell to freeze over (or Dante's to thaw).

----------


## Jim Garber

The seller of <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/rare-1914-Luigi-Embergher-typo-B-Mandolin-Collectable_W0QQitemZ140181722501QQihZ004QQcateg
oryZ10179QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this Embergher</a> (on eBay for at least the third time) is now accepting offers.

----------


## Fliss

Not quite a bowlback, but what do you folks make of <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-UNUSUAL-ITALIAN-MANDOLIN-BY-VESUVIO-NAPOLI_W0QQitemZ120187916169QQihZ002QQcategoryZ10
179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> - I think it's kind of cute. Anyone ever heard of Vesuvio of Napoli? 

Fliss

----------


## jasona

Have you all discussed the Eastman bowlbacks yet? It appears they are making both rosewood and maple bowls for the Japanese market, and are considering a move to North America and other markets. I for one am intrigued--not nearly as much risk as buying a potential old basket case, then needing a years wait for a repair.

----------


## Jim Garber

Yet another <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-Laute-von-Luigi-Embergher-1907_W0QQitemZ160183110243QQihZ006QQcategoryZ10179  QQss
PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Embergher</a>. This one 1907 tipo 1 maple bowled.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Have you all discussed the Eastman bowlbacks yet? It appears they are making both rosewood and maple bowls for the Japanese market, and are considering a move to North America and other markets. I for one am intrigued--not nearly as much risk as buying a potential old basket case, then needing a years wait for a repair.


Jason,
Have you played one of these or have you seen other pics than what you posted? How do you know they might be sold in the US and elsewhere?

----------


## Jim Garber

> Have you played one of these or have you seen other pics than what you posted? How do you know they might be sold in the US and elsewhere?


Oh, I see! They are discussed here.

----------


## jasona

Sorry I didn't link to the original thread in my initial post...there is a lot to wade through there after all

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

I'd be interested in trying a bowlback Eastman. Especially the maple one. I have tried an F-hole Eastman and i have to say that it was a great instrument. Although there is no direct connection between the quality of both, i'd expect that the bowlbacks should be at least middle class or better. Time will show...

----------


## Eugene

I'm truly curious regarding the Eastmans. #Hopefully, the potential US distributor mentioned can work something out.

I'm also gently working on a local new luthier to induce an interest in building modern Neapolitan types, but that route would certainly be pricier than Eastman.

----------


## Martin Jonas

1898 Vinaccia.

1903 de Meglio.

Not in the same league, but maybe worth noting for the rarity: an almost-new Piccolo bowlback. Unfortunately, it's made by Musikalia.

Martin

----------


## SChase@EastmanStrings

I am here to let you guys know it is more than just a rumor that Eastman Bowlbacks are on thier way to the US market. As a feeler, I have having only a dozen of each model sent in. They should hopefully be here by NAMM. I will keep you posted.

----------


## JEStanek

To save the reading, Sean posted the retail in these in the other thread at $1,400. They have my interest piqued.

Jamie

----------


## Neil Gladd

> To save the reading, Sean posted the retail in these in the other thread at $1,400.


I was going to ask about that. I already have an Eastman bowlback CASE that I am very happy with, bought after the water disaster last Summer.

----------


## Jim Garber

Looks like the Eastman's are copying the Calace style. Interesting. Count me in if there is any way to try one. Maybe targeted gatherings in some localities?

----------


## SChase@EastmanStrings

They are likely to be introduced in one of our larger dealers in the Southeast.

----------


## etbarbaric

Hey Eugene,

Don't you need to buy this for your Martin collection? #Oh wait, maybe you already have it on hold...

:-)

Eric

----------


## Jeff Chu

Hi Guys,

I have a question for pandini owners out there, do they fit in the eastman bowlback cases? or is there another fiberglass case that fits it? Thanks!

-Jeff

----------


## Jim Garber

> I have a question for pandini owners out there, do they fit in the eastman bowlback cases? or is there another fiberglass case that fits it? Thanks!


Hi Jeff:
I can say without any doubt that my Pandini does not fit into an Eastman case. The Eastman cases are sized to fit Calace mandolins very nicely. I have one for my better Calace and one for my Embergher (the mandolin is small and I have extra padding in the case for it). It is sad to say, but if you want a hardshell case for a Pandini the best place would be to get one form the maker. 

I was lucky that Pandini owner in CA got one by mistake (translation error) and was willing to sell it to me for what it cost him. 

Mine came with the lightweight but serviceable soft case but I put off spending the big bucks for the hard one in an effort to find a cheaper alternative. I was about to have Modern Case make one for me but by them they were out of business. The other alternative was to have Kingham in the UK make a custom one but that one would have cost over $400 plus shipping -- maybe even more now that the dollar is low.

I got the Eastman case with the hope that the Pandini fit but it sticks over the top. These are large mandolins. BTW they also will not fit in those Korean HSCs that Lark of the Morning sells.

----------


## Eugene

> Hey Eugene,
> 
> Don't you need to buy this for your Martin collection? #Oh wait, maybe you already have it on hold...
> 
> :-)
> 
> Eric


Errrr... Not my thang at all. Personally, I'm glad that aesthetic has remained interesting periphera.

----------


## etbarbaric

Of course... which is why I had to mention it.  

Have a great weekend everyone!

Eric

----------


## Neil Gladd

> I can say without any doubt that my Pandini does not fit into an Eastman case. The Eastman cases are sized to fit Calace mandolins very nicely. &lt;snip&gt;
> 
> I got the Eastman case with the hope that the Pandini fit but it sticks over the top. These are large mandolins.


I have never seen a Pandini in person, and was not aware that they are on the large side. My Pagani, Lyon & Healy and another no-name American bowlback all fit into the Eastman case very well.

----------


## JeffD

> #Personally, I'm glad that aesthetic has remained interesting periphera.


I like the way you said that.

In terms of the main stream culture I think my whole life has been only an interesting periphera.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Neil,

If I remember previous discussions correctly, it's not that the Pandini is on the large side per se, it's the "bishop's staff" headstock which is too high for the space provided for the headstock in the Eastman case (and indeed in the standard-issue Korean bowlback case).

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Here's another NYC label of interest, noting the makers as "disciples of LRicca."

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Russo-Mandolin-NICE-L-K_W0QQitemZ280180250071QQihZ018QQcategoryZ10179QQs  sPageNameZWDVWQQrd
Z1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Russo-M....iewItem</a>

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> If I remember previous discussions correctly, it's not that the Pandini is on the large side per se, it's the "bishop's staff" headstock which is too high for the space provided for the headstock in the Eastman case (and indeed in the standard-issue Korean bowlback case).


The bowl fits in the Eastman case (widthwise) but the top extends out of the case an inch or two so you cannot close it. The headstock is not the problem. In other words the bowl is deeper than even the Calaces which are on the larger side of bowlbacks -- esp compared to the Embergher which is quite diminutive.

I have my Calace in one and use the other Eastman for my Embergher. I could not get my Pandini in even the old Harptone case (I was lucky to get two of those).

----------


## Jim Garber

1918 Calace at William Petit. As usual, there is no price listed. 

I heard from Petit. The price is 4000 with case. Some cracks on the table.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Interesting French de Meglio-esque bowl here, labelled Thibouville-Lamy. #Good price with very little time to go. #The first maple-bowl de Meglio clone I've seen.

Ceccherini relisted; doesn't seem to have sold last time.

Something really of note: Milanese mandolin, no maker's name.

The seller of this Monzino is perhaps a bit too optimistic.

Martin

----------


## trebleclef528

> 1918 Calace at William Petit. As usual, there is no price listed. 
> 
> I heard from Petit. The price is 4000 with case. Some cracks on the table.


<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Raffaele-Calace-von-1918-Neapolitanische-Mandoline_W0QQitemZ250195771901QQihZ015QQcategory

Z10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> could be a better alternative with a buy it now option of 1800 Euro

----------


## onthefiddle

Does anyone recognise this style of mandolin?  
It has a Roman style neck and head, with a finial. The soundhole is more reminiscent of a Cristofaro, though more symmetrically placed, and it appears to be lacking its scratchplate. The bowl is maple, but with an odd number of ribs.

Jon

----------


## Martin Jonas

Don't recognise it, but the aesthetics looks French to me. The bridge seems more modern than the mandolin.

Nice-looking instrument, though.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Nothing too special, but I figured I would take a chance on this Unlabelled bowlback.

Got it for fairly reasonable... of course we will see what condition it is in when it arrives. I think Vinaccia-influenced (maybe yet another allievo?) to my eye. In any case it certainly looks Italian to me and I like the aged bone tuner buttons -- similar to my Demeglio.

----------


## Alex Fields

Can anyone tell me anything about this and how much it might be worth/how good it might play? I've waited until the last minute and probably won't have time to get any replies but it's worth a shot.

EDIT: Jim, the link you posted doesn't work. I was just looking through the instruments so I probably saw the one you got. Which was it?

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Can anyone tell me anything about this and how much it might be worth/how good it might play? I've waited until the last minute and probably won't have time to get any replies but it's worth a shot.


I can't tell you anything except that it looks very nice and the price is right, so go for it! Good luck!

----------


## Jim Garber

I fixed that link above so it now works. I must have lopped off the last number.

As for that Meinel & Herold... I posted this on the other thread:



> I am not familiar with that maker per se -- only having seen others like it. The eBay seller is a luthier who is fixing up a large collection of a cyber friend of mine -- he had over 400 bowlbacks and led the Victoria BC Mandolin Orchestra. He passed a way a few years ago.
> 
> In any case, it is a decent German-made instrument and might be a good bet for something to start with, bowlback-wise.
> 
> Sorry I can't give yopu any further info. There are a few others here who woudl know more about the German makers but they are in Europe and are probably asleep at the moment.
> 
> Good luck!

----------


## Alex Fields

I bid 160 and for a minute was winning but apparently I was outbid. Oh well. I'm going to keep my eye out for inexpensive bowlbacks, it seems like you can find good ones for really cheap a lot more than you can other styles of mandolin. I'm kindof glad I didn't win this one, I couldn't really afford it, hah...I probably would've ended up trying to sell it in a couple of weeks anyway when I had to pay for some other stuff.

Thanks for the replies.

----------


## billkilpatrick

here's a bowlback of "note" - possibly not the best:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MSA-MA4....hZ005QQ

... looks like it's been dipped in aspic but i like the plainness of it.

----------


## vkioulaphides

This may be the only bowlback with a _waterproof_ guarantee.

----------


## billkilpatrick

what do you suppose is a "19 partly bottom?"

----------


## brunello97

While not a bowlback, this aluminum backed mandolin is an interesting version of what we've seen by Merrill et al in the US:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=001

I like this 'bed pan' shape for the metal body. Dimples and Scratches, notwithstanding.

Any idea of the origin? It looks Catanian in some ways to me. (This after Karein sent me on a goose chase: "Dellen und Kratzer was an old pre-war department store in Berlin." She is still laughing at me.)

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

could be a one-off - something a metal worker might have concocted to repair a damaged flatback mandolin. i've worked with aluminium when doing art and crafts as a kid - very malliable; easy to form into any shape.

not a terribly prepossessing instrument imho ...

----------


## Martin Jonas

> This after Karein sent me on a goose chase: "Dellen und Kratzer was an old pre-war department store in Berlin." She is still laughing at me.


So am I, actually...

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> I like this 'bed pan' shape for the metal body. Dimples and Scratches, notwithstanding.


Just another example of modern day inventors not aware of the past. Commodium.

----------


## Bob A

"Sterilised over an open flame and then with boiling bleach"!!! How anal.

----------


## vkioulaphides

_Commodium_, eh? If I still remember my highschool Latin, would the opposite be IMmodium?   

Perhaps we ought to delimit Bowlbacks of *Note* by a "Bowlbacks of *Tone*" clause.  

Cheers, one and all.

Victor

----------


## etbarbaric

> How anal.


Um... well... yes.

I liked this line:

"I had planned to say that these sturdy instruments would stop a bullet, but a recent trial with a .22 proved me wrong. Dang. "

I've always been a little amazed at the number of mandolins that show up with bullet holes...

----------


## Alex Fields

> I've always been a little amazed at the number of mandolins that show up with bullet holes...


Hey, not everyone likes flatpicking. Which is worse, bullet holes or rotten fruit stains?

----------


## Jim Garber

I started yet another discussion on piccolos since I just go an unlabelled piccolo bowlback.

----------


## Jim Garber

I was hoping that this would go by the wayside and no one would really notice it in the bowlback crowd that bids on eBay:
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/GAETANO-VINACCIA-MANDOLIN-NAPOLI-1913-VINTAGE-SCHMIDL_W0QQitemZ260193332625QQihZ016QQcateg

oryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">1913 Gaetano Vinaccia</a>

It is now above my wildest budget, but maybe someone else has deeper pockets and get score this one at a reasonable price, like that Giuseppe that went for $530.

It is missing some sort of carved figure on the headstock, possibly a man's head or a lion like others I have seen. Other smaller issues but these are not too common and his work is well-respected.

I have to amass a stockpile whne these things appear. I predict it will go for $1200-1500 unless there is a battle of the Euro-bidders, then maybe higher.

----------


## vkioulaphides

In your _expert_ opinion, Jim --and considering the striking homeliness of this specimen-- do you think this is for real? SO many questions begged...

----------


## Bob A

It looks to be a bare-bones example from the appearance of the bowl, but the extended board seems to put the lie to that. From what I've heard, Gaetano V is one of the big guns in the family around the turn of the century. Victor's concerns strike me as legitimate; there are unresolved paradoxes inherent in the instrument's appearance to me, at least on a cursory glance.

If it's real it might be worth the 1600+ it's been bid up to, though fortunately I'm awash in bowlbacks and illiquid in coin of the realm, so I won't have to sweat the problem myself.

----------


## RSW

Given the condition, I wouldn't pay that much for it. Perhaps a nice sound but playability would require a lot of effort.

----------


## Jim Garber

It is over 2200 and it looks like the Euro folks are battling it out. I have another one in my files with that same german import label.

Gaetano seemed to veer from the std Vinaccia look and many of his mandolins had different design features including round instead of oval holes.

In any case, too rich for my blood esp with a snapped off finial carving.

----------


## billkilpatrick

... buy american!

----------


## Jim Garber

I guess that includes *South* American, Bill, right? I refer to your charango.

----------


## billkilpatrick

... very pan-american of you. i'd say the charango is a noteworthy bowlback, yes. tuned in 5th's ... with 5 courses ... formidable! (wonder if it can be done?)

----------


## trebleclef528

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/1901-Luigi-Dorigo-unique-Italian-Neapolitan-Mandoline_W0QQitemZ140191979149QQihZ004QQcateg
oryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">This</a> is a very nice looking mandolin by Luigi Dorigo. Yet anthoner De Meglio style "copyist"..... I think the seller is a bit ambitious with the price though!
Ian

----------


## vkioulaphides

Oh, and so MUCH more than a _bit_, Ian!  

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

Wowza!! Ima sell my mandolins, buy a house!

----------


## vkioulaphides

Indeed...  I vacillate between two views of the matter:

A. We (of the Cafe, and other mando-aficionados) have created a monster, a hyped-up market where even basket-cases are posted with a mega-gazillion-dollar "opening" ask price.

B. Yet this may have brought us closer to some hypothetical strike-price, at which former buyers will convert to sellers.

The outcome, of course, remains to be seen. Speaking for myself alone, I won't be on either side of the transaction(s) to come. I'm a one-mando kinda guy, you know...   

(P.S. On the other hand, I've got one at every port, so _fidelity_ is questionable at best...)

----------


## billkilpatrick

> B. Yet this may have brought us closer to some hypothetical strike-price, at which former buyers will convert to sellers.


i trust that your mother-in-law's mandolin (so thoughtfully purchased by yourself) is inviolate ...

----------


## Martin Jonas

It's an asking price, but no buyer in sight. He doesn't have a chance of getting it, either. Frankly, I don't see all that much price inflation in the bowlback world. One can still get a functional de Meglio (not a clone) for around 100 Pounds, same as a few years ago.

This Dorigo is a strange one anyway: the headstock and the string hooks look like Ceccherini more than de Meglio, but the bowl shape and the side vents are de Meglio. The bridge is metal and appears to have been _screwed_ into the soundboard. I think he would do well to get one tenth of his asking price.

Martin

----------


## Neil Gladd

Check the prices on his other mandolins for sale. He is clearly delusional.

----------


## brunello97

It is a curious bridge on the Luigi Dorigo. Has anyone seen this type of thing before?

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

No, Bill, I assure you that my mother's-in-law mandolin is not for sale. # #Besides, that one becomes _de facto_ my own mandolin when I am visiting the balmy Caribbean. # 

And, of course, one delusional seller doth not a hyped-up market make. Still, prices have been creeping up#or so it seems to me. De Meglios suffer from overabundance, thus their prices (as Martin writes, correctly) have not moved much, and may well remain low-ish for a while longer. Others, however, seem to have become dearer.

As for the bridge on this overpriced thing, it must have been a fine machinist who built it. I wouldn't hazard any guess on what it may make the instrument _sound_ like. To say nothing of the fact that it is apparently BOLTED onto the soundboard... *ouch*

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

I think that the bowlback world is somewhat skewed by wildly divergent pricing. Emberghers and the like go for high 4 figure sums; folks who have Grandpa's bowlback in the attic think they've hit the mother lode, and put them up for auction at absurd opening bids, so as not to be "taken" by mando-sharks like you and I. And of course we wade thru the firewood wondering what they've been inhaling.

"Name" instruments will find their level, and the stuff by other than the Big Three will go for more reasonable prices. In fact I'm not alone in bottom-feeding the market. I'll never recover from scoring a lovely Ceccherini for 200 bucks, but I'm certain others here have done as well.

So maybe we ARE responsible for the $2500 crypto-DeMeglio. Sorry.

----------


## brunello97

While checking a few things to respond to Dustin's question viz bowlbacks on another thread, I came across this ad. Doesn't Valentine Abt have a VEGA model named after him? And here he is shilling for Washburn? I guess free-agency didn't begin with Curt Flood.

Mick

----------


## Eugene

That sellout!

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Doesn't Valentine Abt have a VEGA model named after him? And here he is shilling for Washburn?


I think that he endorsed at least 4 different makes over the years, including the Merrill aluminum mandolin, and eventually Gibson, in 1908.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Doesn't Valentine Abt have a VEGA model named after him? And here he is shilling for Washburn?


This is from a 1912-13 Lyon & Healy catalog. I don't think that these guys necessarily signed exclusive agreements tho it does say that he _only_ plays the Washburn in Mick's ad.

----------


## brunello97

Great ad, Jim. #I like the explanatory note at the bottom linking price to model number.

This reminds me, Hubert (Keef) 's book on Washburn was due out around this time. #Still no word from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/History....sr=1-12

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> This reminds me, Hubert (Keef) 's book on Washburn was due out around this time. Still no word from Amazon:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/History....sr=1-12


I believe that Hubert told me that it would be out sometime next month/January which, canm of course, mean anytime into March. It should be wonderful in any case, and sorely needed.

----------


## Eugene

Anybody know what happened to Neil Russell's efforts towards a Washburn mandolin book? I'll drop him a line soon, but I seem to have lost touch with him around the time Pat Lawson passed. I haven't seen him on the board here in years.

----------


## Jim Garber

I think Neil is mostly concentrating on working on his Hawaiian instruments. I know that Hubert was in touch with him as well so he may have put his Washburn work aside.

----------


## Jim Garber

This Vega style 3 is a good possible candidate for anyone looking for a quality bowlback that (hopefully) won't break the bank. I have one very similar to it and mine is a lovely sounding instrument.

----------


## CraigF

> This Vega style 3 is a good possible candidate for anyone looking for a quality bowlback that (hopefully) won't break the bank. I have one very similar to it and mine is a lovely sounding instrument.


That looks to be quite nice. I'll watch it, but I bet it goes out of my range.

----------


## Jim Garber

It depends, of course, what your range is. I would say, maybe $500 from past eBay sales of these. This one _looks_ pretty pristine tho. OTOH if it was an Italian one then the price would go way up.

----------


## onthefiddle

I also have a very similar Vega (a Lansing Special - but the only difference that I can see is that it has "Lansing Special, Boston, Mass." engraved on the tuner cover).
I can also second Jim's assessment - if this was Italian it would sell for a lot more, they are very well made instruments.

----------


## Keith Miller

This looks OK
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Wunderschoene-Mandoline-ev-CASELLA-o-SILVESTRI-1900_W0QQitemZ160195852129QQihZ006QQcategor
yZ21591QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Wunders....iewItem</a>

----------


## Jim Garber

The fluted back adds much interest for the bowl sharks our there. That hole in the headstock should be a give-away as to ID but I am not sure that it is necessarily one of the makers that the seller attributes.

----------


## Jim Garber

Yet another Vega bowlback for you aficionados. I think this may be a style 2. Buy It Now price is pretty reasonable. I would say this is a good shot for someone who wants a decent American one.

----------


## brunello97

It is a nice mandolin, Jim. The neck/bowl shot in the ad shows some fine work.  It looks to be in good condition. Worth the leap, I'm sure.

Is it me, or do the Vegas that come onto the EBay usually seem to be in pretty good shape/appear well care for? (Always exceptions, I suppose, including the one I just fixed up for my niece.)

Mick

----------


## CraigF

> Yet another Vega bowlback for you aficionados. I think this may be a style 2. Buy It Now price is pretty reasonable. I would say this is a good shot for someone who wants a decent American one.


This must be Vega month. BTW, I snagged the last one.

----------


## Fliss

> This must be Vega month. BTW, I snagged the last one.


Congrats! That looks really nice  

Fliss

----------


## CraigF

> Congrats! That looks really nice  
> 
> Fliss


Thanks. It does look sweet. I'm finally getting a bowlback.  They just have more charm IMHO than flatbacks, archtops, etc. It should arrive next Tuesday.

----------


## brunello97

Craig,-are you referring to the Vega Style 3 above? 

When it comes in and you get settled with it I'd love to see some more photos of it if you get the chance to post a few.

thanks,

Mick

----------


## CraigF

> Craig,-are you referring to the Vega Style 3 above? 
> 
> When it comes in and you get settled with it I'd love to see some more photos of it if you get the chance to post a few.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Mick


Yes, it's that one. Sure, I can take more photos. Anything in particular you want to see?

----------


## Fliss

For those who like De Meglio clones, <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1930s-Rosewood-Spruce-Napoli-Mandolin-Case_W0QQitemZ320206387235QQihZ011QQcategoryZ10179  QQ
ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here's one made by Michele Maratea</a> which looks quite nice. 

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

Hard to tell on this Roman style bowlback. Obviously a blatant copy of and Embergher but no label or stamp of the maker. Who knows it might be a decent instrument but I doubt it is an Embergher.

----------


## brunello97

> For those who like De Meglio clones, <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1930s-Rosewood-Spruce-Napoli-Mandolin-Case_W0QQitemZ320206387235QQihZ011QQcategoryZ10179  QQ
> 
> 
> ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here's one made by Michele Maratea</a> which looks quite nice. #
> 
> Fliss


Fliss,

I tossed in a bid on this just because I love the name:

Michele Maratea. # #Beautiful.

Umberto Ceccherini. #I feel the same way. 

With names like that they are bound to sound good.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Hard to tell on this Roman style bowlback. Obviously a blatant copy of and Embergher but no label or stamp of the maker. Who knows it might be a decent instrument but I doubt it is an Embergher.


Well, someone thought that it was something... enough to pay $835. I would have paid 1/4 of that just to take a look... oh well.

Here's a better pic that the seller sent me.

----------


## brunello97

The handcraft is looking kind of butch there, Jim. It is humming Sicily to me, though many of those mandolins are pretty thoroughly labeled, stamped etc. 8 bills? Somebody must know more than I about this. 

The same buyer also outbid me (sort of) on a rosewood flatback today. I wonder if it is somebody we know?

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "The handcraft is looking kind of butch there..."


Indeed, including mix-and-match elements from just about _all_ Embergher models, _sans finesse_. To say nothing of the something-less-than convincing dragon...  

But I'd better shut up, before someone who _really_ knows what he's talking about proves my embarrassing ignorance, by demonstrating beyond doubt that this is in fact an original Embergher, Model X-nix.

$835...  

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

This seller says this mandolin is a Vinaccia. I am not so sure. I could not find any Vinaccias in my jpeg collection that even resemble this one. Looks American to me, but anything is possible, I know.

----------


## Keith Miller

this guy has some nice stuff from an estate sale including this
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-C-F-Martin-MOP-Inlaid-Bowl-Mandolin-w-Hard-Case_W0QQitemZ230213087540QQihZ013QQcatego
ryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-C-....iewItem</a>

----------


## brunello97

Yes, Jim, $300 + shipping #seems like a bit of a gamble on something out of the ordinary to hit the jackpot. #Most of the peripherals on this look very American: headstock, tailpiece, pickguard, bridge etc. My files are nowhere near as in-depth as yours but there was nothing Vinaccia-oid to be found. #But the headstock looks very Chicago and I have a Favilla Bros. bowlback with the same farfalla inlay. # Did the Vinaccia label photos actually come from this instrument? #Hard for me to tell-the inlay around the soundhole looked similar but was too fuzzy to id. # 

The seller had 1 previous Ebay activity, so it all seemed pretty dicey. #Hard not to think of Woody Allen in (Bananas??) # "A sham of a fraud of a mockery of a scam of a....." #or maybe something like that. Or maybe not. #Perhaps we'll find out something down the line. 

Mick

----------


## brunello97

> this guy has some nice stuff from an estate sale including this
> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-C-F-Martin-MOP-Inlaid-Bowl-Mandolin-w-Hard-Case_W0QQitemZ230213087540QQihZ013QQcatego
> 
> 
> ryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-C-....iewItem</a>


Very nice looking Martin. #

Is this a Style 5? #Eugene? #Others in the know?

thanks,

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Looks to me to be a style 5. I have a pic of one from 1908 with that same peghead inlay. I love that one with the horns (or whatever they are). Despite what the seller says, that is not the original case. It looks like one of those Korean ones.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Not one but three Embergher auctions, all of them finished now and none mentioned here:

- A 1926 Tipo A, with a buy-it-now of US$2570, and no takers.

- A maple-bowled No. 1, entered and withdrawn before a bid was made: presumably somebody made him an offer off-Ebay.

- A rosewood No. 1, which went up to 2010 Euro, but didn't reach its reserve.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> - A rosewood No. 1, which went up to 2010 Euro, but didn't reach its reserve.


Sorry, Martin but that one is rosewood number 3 (has the headstock inlay).

----------


## Alex Timmerman

> - A maple-bowled No. 1, entered and withdrawn before a bid was made: presumably somebody made him an offer off-Ebay.
> 
> Martin


Hi Martin,

And that one is actually an Orchestra model No.2.

Anyway, thanks for letting us know! 


Alex,

PS. <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/ORIGINAL-LUIGI-EMBERGHER-MANDOLINE-DATIERT-1911_W0QQitemZ150204472766QQihZ005QQcategoryZ21
591QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here on the German Ebay Webpage is a nice (needs repair of course) early one!</a>

----------


## Martin Jonas

Thanks Alex/Jim,

Clearly, my identifications leave something to be desired, but of course you are both right. Pity that the No. 3 had only the one small photo and brief description -- I suspect it might have done better with more photos.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> PS. <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/ORIGINAL-LUIGI-EMBERGHER-MANDOLINE-DATIERT-1911_W0QQitemZ150204472766QQihZ005QQcategoryZ21
> 
> 591QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here on the German Ebay Webpage is a nice (needs repair of course) early one!</a>


Alex:
 What model is that one?... sort of a puzzle with the top border. Model 1 1/2?

----------


## RSW

The number 3 is going back to Italy (actually to Roma where it started it's life). I couldn't figure out how to put bigger pictures, that Embergher is actually mine (was) and ended sold for less than I hoped (that's what happens with small photos and not enough hype). At least it is going to a professional player who has the right sort of hands (small) for this type of instrument. Sound wise, this Embergher is a giant, very strong, very well timbered and is very stable. It also has better tuners (14/1 ratio rather than the more common 12/1). Oh yes (for Martin), it has a flutted maple back, not rosewood.

----------


## CraigF

My Vega arrived today. It is nice. The strings were too heavy but the neck is straight. I have it restrung with Dogal Dolce strings. A couple of the tuners are tough to turn, but otherwise all seems to be good.

The fingerboard is tiny. Stretches that were tricky before come so easily. I'll try and get some pics soon.

Jim, do you know if the Vegas fit in the Eastman case?

----------


## Jim Garber

> Jim, do you know if the Vegas fit in the Eastman case?


Absolutely! I just tried mine and it fits nicely. You may want to put a cloth of some sort on top so it does not move -- there is a little extra room.

----------


## Eugene

> Is this a Style 5? #Eugene? #Others in the know?


I'm with Jim on this. ...And it's a bit ridiculous to call the case original.

----------


## CraigF

> Absolutely! I just tried mine and it fits nicely. You may want to put a cloth of some sort on top so it does not move -- there is a little extra room.


Thanks Jim. I'll order one. It came with just a flimsy felt "gig bag" which leaves a black dust all over the place.

----------


## brunello97

Here is a #'bol ordinaire' with what appears to be a painted-on strikeplate and a curious if not elegant bridge.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws...._widget

Mick

----------


## Bob A

Interesting bridge. As for the rest, it seems fairly priced at $9.95.

----------


## Bill Snyder

> Here is a #'bol ordinaire' with what appears to be a painted-on strikeplate and a curious if not elegant bridge.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws...._widget
> 
> Mick


I know how most feel about refinishing an old instrument but if I got this one for the openning bid of $9.95 would it be an unforgiveable act to repair *and* refinish this one?

----------


## vkioulaphides

Well... it wouldn't be necessarily unforgiveable; it _would_, however, be a waste of perfectly good *varnish*.  Might there not be some furniture in your house that would benefit from some TLC, some light touch-up?

 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

I'm still fascinated by that bridge. But not so much that I'd bid - too many mandolins already.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Yes, I, too, have a soft spot for the _mostaccioli_-- on lutes, though, not on mandolins. They often match the spectacular facial hair seen on the _performers_, too!

----------


## Fliss

A <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VINACCIA-MANDOLIN_W0QQitemZ230210521198QQihZ013QQcategoryZ1  0179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcm
dZViewItem" target="_blank">Vinaccia</a> in need of a little TLC.

Martin, isn't this the same seller you bought your Vinaccia (or one of your other bowlbacks?) from?

Fliss

----------


## Martin Jonas

That's the seller of the nicer of my Ceccherinis.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

I posted some pics of my newest acquisition, a simple Calace mandola. Photos on the post a picture thread

One question is: what should be the tuning? The scale is 17 inches / 43 cm so I would think that it is CGDA tuning... or is it? Any suggestions for strings?

Finding a case may be a challenge but I thought possibly a lute case or a bouzouki -- I will have to check the measurements.

----------


## margora

"One question is: what should be the tuning? The scale is 17 inches / 43 cm so I would think that it is CGDA tuning... or is it? Any suggestions for strings?"

I'm not so sure. I think this would be GDAE, octave. It would be on the short end but not too short, I think.

----------


## CraigF

> One question is: what should be the tuning? The scale is 17 inches / 43 cm so I would think that it is CGDA tuning... or is it? Any suggestions for strings?


At 17", you could probably go either, but something tells me this is for octave tuning. Bernunzio in Rochester has some Dogal RW91 strings which are listed as meant for a 44 cm scale which is close. Dogal RW91

----------


## Woody Turner

"One question is: what should be the tuning? The scale is 17 inches / 43 cm so I would think that it is CGDA tuning... or is it? Any suggestions for strings?"

Although I don't own any bowlbacks, experience with my 17"-scale cylinderback mandola leads me to suggest CGDA tuning for your new purchase. I use light-gauge (12-49) strings (mixed set) that still yield tons of volume and sustain. I don't think 17" is all that uncommon for mandola scales.

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting... 

Mick said (on the Post a Picture thread):



> BTW I tuned the 17" scale Puglisi I got last summer to CGDA and it has been working out quite nicely. That low C is fine.


Just curious what strings you used for that? On my American Conservatory I took the lower three courses and then put a .040 pai on the C-course. 

I also checked on the Calace instrument price list. They say:



> Mandolas: (vibrant strings cm.43,5 - tuning in G or in C )


So I assume that like folks mentioned above I have a choice. Since I am playing some mandola in the Aonzo workshop maybe I can tune this one to the C tuning. I would love to get the Dogal set since they souind great on a few of my other bowlbacks but that would be the G tuning.

----------


## Fliss

> That's the seller of the nicer of my Ceccherinis.
> 
> Martin


Aha, I thought it was one of them -#I nearly said the Ceccherini, but I couldn't spell it # #

Fliss

----------


## vkioulaphides

Nice catch, Jim!

On one hand, I envy you; on the other hand, you're nuts; on the _third_ hand, I envy you again!  

Enjoy your new baby, my friend! I look forward to seeing/hearing said little treasure at the CAMW.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Ali

My newest acquisition - a copy by Martin Bowers of my VINNY (1764 Vincentius Vinaccia mandolin). The copy has been christened Young Vinny and was picked up today!

----------


## vkioulaphides

How VERY pretty! I wish the newborn health and happiness in its "mother's" loving hands.  

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## mandoisland

Hello Ali!
That's a real gem! Congratulation!
Michael

----------


## Jim Garber

Wonderful Ali, a true BBON! Will you keep Vinny, Senior more at home and take Junior on the road? Did Martin copy the tone as well as the ornamentation? How does Junior sound? 

Here is a small pic of Senior (from your site).

----------


## Jim Garber

> On one hand, I envy you; on the other hand, you're nuts; on the _third_ hand, I envy you again!


I am nuts... now I am driving myself insane trying to figure out how to string it. Victor and I got roped into playing mandola parts for the Aonzo rendition of the Brandenburg 3. Do you think it would sound right if I played in in octave tuning? Last year I played it on the mandolin (transposed of course) so this would only be one octave lower but, I assume the same notes as the mandola/viola part. That way, I could also just order the Calace strings and be done with it.

----------


## margora

"Do you think it would sound right if I played in in octave tuning? Last year I played it on the mandolin (transposed of course) so this would only be one octave lower but, I assume the same notes as the mandola/viola part. That way, I could also just order the Calace strings and be done with it."

Of course, it will be fine. If you octave string your mandola the lowest course is G and the highest is E. For obvious reasons you will always be able to play the lowest note in the viola part. What may be a bit more difficult is that you will have to play some passages well up the neck whereas, if you strung CGDA, you will be in first-third position more or less all the time. It is conceivable (I wouldn't know for sure without looking at the score) that there are notes in the viola part that would really be too high on an octave-strung mandola to sound well; but you can always play such parts an octave down if that is the case.

BTW, I play the mandola parts in the PMO on an octave-strung instrument of the same scale length as your new Calace. It works extremely well for me (keeping the above in mind).

----------


## Eugene

Very nice, Ali! Congrats. Have you thought about experimenting with period strings from NRI? They are different, but I think they're fun.

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks, Bob. I think I will prob opt for the CGDA tuning as the viola fingering makes more sense for some of the more difficult parts. The trouble is trying to fogure out the proper gauge. I figure I will extrapolate to the lighter bowlback strings on a mandolin and get a custom set of single strings to try.

----------


## Neil Gladd

> My newest acquisition - a copy by Martin Bowers of my VINNY (1764 Vincentius Vinaccia mandolin). The copy has been christened Young Vinny and was picked up today!


Beautiful! If I ever get my 18th century Vinaccia copy playable, we could play duets!

For those of you that missed it, I recently posted photos of my entire mandolin menagerie in the Groupings thread in Post a picture of your mandolin.

----------


## Ali

> Very nice, Ali! #Congrats. #Have you thought about experimenting with period strings from NRI? #They are different, but I think they're fun.


Hi everyone,
Thanks for the comments....firstly....Eugene....I am using fairly authentic strings......they are brill.....Aquila strings......gut E's and A's and copper wound floss for D's and G's.....apparently all the rage with lute players....sund fntastic and much "neater sounding" than plain brass A's or twised brass lower strings.....I know there are various views on this subject but my thoughts are simply tht if I ere a musician around a that time, I would have experimented with all possible strings that would have been available....well, all the ones I am using would have been......also using a quill.....
And to answer Jim about how Junior sounds.......FANTASTIC.....Martin was very worried bout that aspect......but I am very pleased indeed......
And to answer the other question (Jim again I think)....Old Vinny is going to go and live (on loan) in a mandolin collection in a museum in London - hopefully the one housed at the Royal College of Music opposite the Royal Albert Hall.........where he belongs.....in a nice controlled environment.....on display to anyone who is interested an safe from the rigours of touring and cold churches!
Junior will become my touring instrument and the one I play. I think it is the best compromise all things considered. I am very pleased anyway.
All the best
Ali

----------


## billkilpatrick

a bowlback, yes ... but not a mandolin: (as seen on france ebay - initial asking price 500)

----------


## billkilpatrick

back:

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Ali,

That's a very nice looking new one!
Congrats to you and the maker.

Greetings, 

Alex

----------


## Linda Binder

Wow! #Congratulations Ali! #Young Vinny is quite the stunner. #That he sounds as good as he looks is very exciting.
Its wonderful that the original (1764!) VINNY will be safe and on public display. #Its clear you've been a great caregiver and champion of a rare and important instrument.

----------


## Bob A

Lovely new old mandolin. I'm pleased that the ancient one will have a safe place to reside; hopefully it'll make music from time to time.

Having a few more than ordinarily ornate mandolins myself, I'm somewhat surprised that you'd order a concert instrument with that level of ornament. I tend to avoid playing the very fancy ones lest I lose a piece of inlay, or otherwise mess up something that'd be difficult to replace/repair. Still, being newer and with access to the maker would tend to inspire confidence, I imagine.

----------


## Neil Gladd

What do we think of this instrument? The tailpiece and tuning machines certainly aren't from 1824, but the body is unusual. It also has a scalloped fingerboard, and looks like the headstock may have been modified.

----------


## Eugene

The soundboard looks like a later 19th-c. mandolino Lombardo or Toscano to me. #Of course, a scalloped fingerboard is typical to mandolino Lombardo. #I don't see a cant, but I also don't see a "footprint" that I would expect if a fixed bridge had been removed. #Gaetano Guadagnini's shop is well-known for its guitars, but I do not know if he was an early producer of mandolini Lombardi or mandolins of any type (Alex?). #I don't know if the soundbox is a legit Lombardo (although I think not likely Guadagnini), and this was later modified, or if this was produced by a later mandolino Lombardo-making shop as a Neapolitan-like instrument hobbled together on their more typical soundbox. #In any case, I do not believe this piece is to be taken at face value.

I've had some correspondence with Maccari & Pugliese in the past. #The bottom of this page pictures an 1830 guitar by Gaetano Guadagnini.

----------


## Eugene

My own suspicion is that the label is either a copy stuck into an instrument in which it does not belong, or that it's an old label scavenged from something else and placed into an instrument in which it does not belong.

----------


## Neil Gladd

> My own suspicion is that the label is either a copy stuck into an instrument in which it does not belong, or that it's an old label scavenged from something else and placed into an instrument in which it does not belong.


That was my first choice, the second choice being that the instrument had been modified after it was built.

----------


## Jim Garber

From first glance the headstock resembles my 1921 Calace and it looks like there was some splicing in that contrasting wood and pearl dot on the back of the neck near the headstock. 

I think also Lombard style body with some reptilian dentistry involved. 

I see, from my files, that this was on eBay with the same pics in March of 2006. Here is what that seller said:




> The Guadagnini family is known as was one of the greatest luthier-families in history. In modern times now some of their instruments have reached sale prices as high as one million dollars. Lara St. John praises her Guadagnini violin: There is a depth and a strength to it which I have never felt on any Stradivarius, or other violin. So many of todays world's best performers like Vanessa Mae, Julia Fischer, Davis Juritz, Sophie Jaffe , I Musici play Guadignini instruments. Also worth mentioning some of 19th century violinists like Henri Vieuxtemps, Henryk Wieniawsky, Hubert Leonard....
> 
> Here we have a genuine Torino mandolin by Gaetano Guadagnini, made in 1824, for an auction. The mandolin features the handwritten label: Gaetano Guadagnini fece in Torino nellanno 1824 in Piazzo S. Carlo. The former owner has had her in his family for about 60 years. I received the following informations from him: "I've brough the mandolin to a famous lutemaker Mr. Bellafontana that was the maintenence - responsable of the Paganinis' violin, the "cannon", for the annual competition in Genova. He said that probably at the end of 1800, somebody make some light work on it, probably the keys because the original where like the violin, but the test on paint, result positive like the original."
> 
> Condition: very good unrestored condition. There is one very old minor hairline split on top at the right, when you look at it, in the midth between fretboard and edge. This split is very old, save and stable, could get fixed but not necessarily. The neck is very straight and the fretboard is in very good condition.
> 
> Woods: spruce top with inlaid wooden pickguard, rosewood back, mahagony neck with inlays from ebony and rosewood, rosewood fretboard.
> 
> Unusual is the originally varnished fretboard with 22 fluted frets, very comfortable to play.
> ...


More later...

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting also is the fact that, according to my sources (Henley, for one) the two Gaetano Guadagnini's both worked in Torino but neither were working in 1824.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a Monzino Lombard with similar soundhole and scratchplate.

----------


## Eugene

Much more decorated, but here's another similar mandolino Lombardo by Rocco (1897, Genova):

----------


## Eugene

> My newest acquisition - a copy by Martin Bowers of my VINNY (1764 Vincentius Vinaccia mandolin). The copy has been christened Young Vinny and was picked up today!


...And this looks like another excellent candidate for the early mandolin eye candy page. Do you think Mr. Bowers would be amenable, Ali?

----------


## Neil Gladd

> What do we think of this instrument? The tailpiece and tuning machines certainly aren't from 1824, but the body is unusual. It also has a scalloped fingerboard, and looks like the headstock may have been modified.


It sold for $1000. I assume that the buyer was NOT someone from this board.

----------


## Eugene

Pas mois!

----------


## RSW

Congratulation Ali on the new 'vinny copy', although it's a bit extreme on the tatoo work (inlays), I'm sure the glue will hold fast and you won't be needing to carefully sweep the floor after a big concert. I do wish that you'd give the 'historical' stringing more of a go, the whole point of that instrument is this type of sound and, I doubt that 'modern style wound lute strings from Pyramid' would have been available at the time. I've never had troubles with the plain brass A, the twisted D takes some time to understand (tame) but it's worth the trouble. NRI makes these strings but so does Dan Larson and the plain brass strings can be purchased in spools from the harpsichord string suppliers. More complicated though is getting the quill just right. I succeed in one out of 10 and usually lose 1 out of 2 if touring

----------


## Eugene

I buy coils of brass from a local harpsichord maker because of the fragility of the a' strings. Regarding quills, I've taken to fabricating them of translucent Bic pens. I get more consistent results from them than from geese.

----------


## RSW

You're up late (or very early :Smile:  Eugene... nice shaping of the BIC pen, a quill of sorts but will it ever develop that wonderful 'barbe' (beard) that real quills develop with use and give it that extra bit of sweetness to the tone?

----------


## Eugene

Fell asleep on the ol' couch (as I do too often) and a quick check of the Cafe before it was off to bed proper. Up proper now, it's a vacation day here (MLK), and I have nothing on the calendar to occupy my time today. Mrs. Eugene will be lucky if I even bother dressing myself!

The Bic plastic is a little odd. It's a little soft and retains file flash for a while, but no, it's not quite "beard"-like. I know the old ones liked the "beard"; however, when I use real quill, the beard tends to appear just before the quill starts cracking across the fibers or splitting along them.

----------


## Ali

Hi Richard - how do you know I haven't given it "more of a go".....I have - a lot of a go and used plain brass A's for ages on Vinny #- quite like them but am now giving plain gut A's a go - quite like them too. CAN't STAND the sound of twisted brass. YUCK! Have tried - lots...also very unhappy with the sound of octaves on low G course.....and I didn't say I was using Pyramid lute strings, though I have in the past....said I was using Aquila wound lute srings....more authentic apparently......I love it that something one person wrote became "bible" for ever more.......how weird.....now, if we had 12 people's writings on the matter from the era and they all agreed I might take a little more notice......
And I do use quill, as you well know beacuse it was you who kindly put me onto American wild turkey quill....though currently trying out Capercaillie (Scottish wild turkey!).

----------


## brunello97

Ali,

There are a couple of species of American Wild Turkey, the one on the right probably more available in Finnish bars (and perhaps certain saunas.)  A certain 'beard' no doubt results after frequent use.

And the choice extends to Scotch? (....I mean Scots turkey.)  I didn't know turkeys were indigenous outside the US. It seems Ben Franklin has been deceiving us.

Mick

----------


## Eugene

It's odd how prescriptive the early-music movement can be at times. #It can get downright contentious amongst guitarists/lutenists. #I don't doubt that somebody someplace strung their Neapolitan mandolins a bit differently in the late 1700s, but the prescriptions of Fouchetti and Correte, as far as I know, are all that's come down to us. #It took me a while to acclimate, but I really like the stringing (especially the octave g'-g) for the solos of the era by the likes of Leone, etc; it really fleshes out those relatively narrow voiced solos. #That said, I truly enjoy hearing Capucci, Frati, Galfetti, Lichtenberg, Schneider, Zigiotti, etc. who do not use the octave g course...just as I truly enjoy hearing Richard's fine release on Globe Records and Bazin's on AGL that do. #Whatever works, enjoy.

----------


## RSW

Oh my, didn't mean to raise any feathers (sorry, couldn't resist), but this topic needs further ageing though probably not here (this is the place to create envy and admiration and pure love of all those round back mando creations). So, not to let the intoxicating thirst for more wild debate on the merits of historical versus practical stringing go unquenched, lets meet on a new thread...

----------


## brunello97

Speaking of feathers, here is an interestingly adorned Italian bowl found on the ebay.fr site:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=010

That went for quite a bit of rooster feed.

Cincirinella aveva un gallo 
tutta la notte ci andava a cavallo....

goes the song, but I've never come across such a label. (Note the coincidental address.)

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Mick:
I have another one of those in my jpeg files, better condition but also with fluted bowl. I wonder if the maker used that name in honor of his street.

----------


## Keith Miller

not a mandolin but looks like an original Roman pick found in an Emberger case !
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/very-old-mandolin-TS-pick-from-Embergher-case-mandoline_W0QQitemZ180208232977QQihZ008QQcat
egoryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/very-ol....iewItem</a>

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "Cincirinella aveva un gallo 
> tutta la notte ci andava a cavallo..."


Thaaaaaaaaaaat's it! I am calling the *Morality Police* A.S.A.P. 'ere the cock croweth, as it were (to use the evangelical phrase, if I may). 

 

Have a good morning, friends!

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

Ah, Victor, you SHOCK me. I'm used to looking for the double-entendre in Cuban songs. (And Italian paintings.)

But a simple child's song now forever tainted with allusions to a 'midnight rodeo'. 

(I suppose the door is thrown open to its appropriation as a bluegrass number.)

thanks for the wake-up call.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> not a mandolin but looks like an original Roman pick found in an Emberger case !
> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/very-old-mandolin-TS-pick-from-Embergher-case-mandoline_W0QQitemZ180208232977QQihZ008QQcat
> 
> egoryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/very-ol....iewItem</a>


Not quite a Roman pick but an elongated teardrop shape.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Ah, Mick, NEVER trust (ostensibly) children's songs, like "Mama, yo quiero"! # What DID you think the Cincirinella song was about?

Back to our regular programming: it is telling of the current Embergher-o-mania that the seller of an otherwise unimpressive, *non*-Roman/Ranieri pick, is convinced it is so all the same, and is eager to sell it for top dollar on eBay. 

More substantively than such hapless sales, I look forward to the discovery/development of some non-TS material that might be used for the broader production of decent-quality Ranieri picks. 

In the meanwhile, I use mine veeeeeeeeeeery sparingly. #

----------


## Bob A

Groucho's tale of fast women and fast horses, and the men who ride them, seems to have near-universal application. Considerations of morality aside, we must be grateful for a phenomenon that has brought many of us into being.

----------


## brunello97

Victor, I'm just a simple man from Texas, which my lovely wife (from The Continent) keeps reminding me.

So now what am I to make of:

"I'm a cowboy who never saw a cow
Never roped a steer cause I don't know how
and I sure ain't a fixin to learn it now.
Yippee i oh ki-ay!"

She always does have to explain the movies to me as well. 

But....on another note:

Here is a charming Puglisi (per la tasca, I presume):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=009

I'm tossing in a few bids, ma non posso comprarlo subito.

I really enjoy seeing their work. It often reveals a real creative abandon. I know some of it might be a bit garish, and perhaps not up to the quality of their mainland pace-setters. But they rarely overdo the bling concentrating on form, lines and color. Very -Italian- in the 20c design terms if I can venture such an appreciative stereotype. 

I'm going to have to look closer at the label, though, to see what allusions I have been missing.

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

Hmm, a pocket-sized one, artfully displayed before a period picture frame. It does look a bit crude to me -- very wide-grained wood, rosewood fingerboard and a strange depression around the soundhole. That tailpiece doesn't belong on this mandolin, and is far too large.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Yes, Martin, you are right. And such is often (though not always) a fair take on Puglisi. The tailpiece seems like it came off a US model. "Cheap and cheerful" would be what my old Brit architecture prof might say. 

But if I can end the day with a metaphor in the spirit (if not the letter) of Victor's am caveat. Maybe some Puglisi's (such as this) are more like a puttanesca sauce rather than fine cuisine. Perhaps a few more alici from the cupboard for some, but tasty for me nonetheless.

This place has delighted me today. But Tuesdays are now tango night for KG and I. (Echoes of the Rote Salon in Berlin, Martin.) We are off!

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

Most people I have met who described themselves as "simple" were instead richly cultured individuals, with a keen awareness of the world around them; conversely, those who put on laborious airs of great sophistication were instead mired in the pettiest of banalities. Feh!

As for my digression I couldn't help it I will only say in my defense that those who share our Greco-Roman view of life espouse a rather, ah... _giocoso_ attitude towards such matters; those who view them in dreary earnesty, well... enrich their local psychoanalyst.  And, lest I be accused of sexist vulgarity, I don't mind adding that the lewdest, bawdiest jokes around the family table are invariably told (quite unapologetically, too!) by my many, jolly, and beautiful female cousins.

In yet another attempt to atone for the Sin of Digression, I must say I like Puglisis, too, and their local compatriots. Yes, garish at times but... The mandolin is, after all, a folk-lute. Let us enjoy it! If one takes the "Neapolitan street-noise" out of it, one somehow denatures it. If one tries to transform the song and dance of the Sicilian _piazza_ into a scene from Ye Verie, Verie Quainte Tea-Parlour, one is painting all the wrong picture!

Pick on, be happy!  

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## billkilpatrick

interesting shape - wonder what (if any) effect the elongated bowl has on tonality?

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

There are few things that bother me about this Puglisi besides the bridge and the tailpiece... First of all never heard about "Roma" Puglisi. The brand stamp behind the bridge isn't clear and i would say that it is somehow fabricated, but not the way it was supposed to be. Plus what Martin said. The oval hole and the inlay are also not typical. The only typical "Puglisi" thing on this is the shape of the headstock.

----------


## Bob A

It's always been a shock to me to discover hidden depths of raunch in the f of the s. Deadlier than the m, as well; at least, so I've read.

As for myself, only hidden depths of banality. Still, one must have SOME strengths. I play the cards I'm dealt. Digression seems to be my trump suit.

----------


## Jim Garber

Re: the Puglisi...

I heard from the seller as to scale length. 




> Nut to 12th fret is 17 cm or 6 3/4 inches. Entire scale lenght is approx. 9 in. Could be thumb size warping near soundhole or made that way? Not an expert in this field. Just selling stuff around the house.


Assuming his measuring is correct and the bridge is mislocated. I would say that this is a pocket mandolin and not a piccolo (short scale). Most of the pocket mandolins I have seen were of German make, so it is strange to see an Italian one.

----------


## brunello97

Hmm. Plami has me looking through the Puglisi images I have on file and I turned up 'another' pocket bowlback from them. Headstock and strikeplate appear similar though the detailing where the fingerboard meets soundhole varies--probably from execution rather than design. The back is hard to tell if it is something dyed or....but is obviously different from the maple one above. I have no views of the stamp on the table.

The -Roma- thing rings a bell, Plami, but I'm not sure why. I'll keep looking. Nice to know there is another Puglisi-o-phile amongst us.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Aaaa, Plami, I found it. Or so I think. Here is a Puglisi Flatback with the "Roma" stamp on the top. How this correlates to the pocket bowlback above, I am not sure.  But I did find at least one other embossed logo on Puglisi tops, besides the expected 'Puglisi Reale & Figli'.

I'll post 'clues' if I find them and hope our sleuthing can go somewhere.  I would greatly appreciate any further information on these folks.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Here is a Puglisi bowlback also with a clunky tailpiece but bearing the same table embossed logo as the maple pocket bowl above. Lots of puzzle pieces. I'm kind of leaning towards thinking the maple-pocket is probably legit, but I'm no expert.

Mick

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hi Mick,

As regards the logo... I cannot see the logo on the maple pocket bowl above really good, so i'm not sure about resemblance with the last Puglisi, which stamp looks fine and is indeed a real, very nice Puglisi. Why are you so sure that it is the "same table embossed logo as the maple pocket bowl above"?

I also cannot see anything more on the flatback besides "Roma". You will find a lot of bowlbacks by different makers, which have also additional stamps like "Napoli", "Catania", etc. refering to the appellation of origin (because these towns were popular with their mandolins) and not to the maker. And even such a stamp is also not a guarantee (especially for 100 years ago, and especially in Italy) that the mandolin has been made there. 

The bridge on the one that you posted looks much more Puglisi-like than the maple one, but bridges, tailpieces and labels come and go and one can hardly rely on that. It's much more sure to rely on scale length, materials used, etc.

I'm not familiar with any member of the Puglisi family, who has moved to Roma. Most of them worked and died in Catania or migrated to Australia, US, etc. It might be, of course, that these pocket mandolins were made in Catania and distributed by a dealer located in Roma, who stamped them or re-stemped them. Could be everything. And it could be also that these are legit Puglisi mandolins, as you suppose. 

Best,
Plamen

----------


## brunello97

Hi Plamen,

Thanks for you note and help. I'm not trying to propose that either the maple pocket bowlback or the flatback above were MADE in Roma. I don't have any real experience or knowledge to base that on. I was just wanting to put up a few images that actually do make things a bit less clear...... The flatback has the typical 'blue' Puglisi label inside, which is visible in the photo. Unfortunately the only pictures I have which include the stamp are cropped. Kind of frustrating.

I looked closer at the stamp from the bowlback I posted above and you are right it is close, but not exact to the one on the maple-bowled pocket whose origins we are discussing. I have compiled three stamps here for discussion: 

On the right is a very clear stamp, and one I have often seen on Puglisi tops. In the middle is the one from the bowlback, and on the left is the stamp from the maple 'pochette.'  Your eyes are better than mine---those left and middle are not the same. They both read "Marca---(illegible to me)' though the second words appear different. The pochette reads 'Italia' on the bottom while the bowl reads 'Catania'.  Interestingly, on the Pochette, within the oval is a very clear 'P R & F.'  (Which I assume is for Puglisi Reale & Figli as is spelled out on the stamp on the right.)

When I was saving Italian bowlback images I have been often skipping the stamps as in my haste I thought they were all the same. You have made it clear that they are not and that they offer interesting clues. I'll do a better job in the future.

BTW, Plamen, I have some images labeled Giuseppe Puglisi, with a round-red label.  Was he Puglisi, pere?

thanks!

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I think that the stamp on the left says "Marca Depositata" which may just be a stamp that indicates that the country of origin is Italy.

----------


## billkilpatrick

"Marca Depositata" in italian means "trade mark."

----------


## brunello97

Good eyes gentlemen, thank you.

Mick

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hi Mick, 

I left with the impression that you were a little bit offended by my post. I'm sorry if this is the case and i want to assure you that no offense was intended, just on contrary. I respect you very much for your input on the board and especially for your interest in Puglisi mandolins.

You are right that the label is typical. The blue colour is just one of the colours in that the label appears. You will find many labels in red and green as well.

I don't know what is "pere", but Giuseppe Reale was the founder of the Puglisi factory for string instruments, which was one of the biggest factories for string instruments in Italy in the late XIX (the factory was founded in 1880) and the begining of XX century. The Puglisi family however is popular for making musical instruments (pianos and organs) since the begining of XIX c. The father of Giuseppe was a piano and organ builder. So, the mandolins made by him (this are the "early years", when he was working alone) appear respectively often with a stamp with his name on it + Catania. In the begining of the XX c. he was supported by his sons Concetto Puglisi and Michelangelo Puglisi. After 1906 the stamp appears already as a G. Puglisi Reale i Figli (which means in Italian "sons") + Catania + the typical aunt. Few years later the name and the aunt were registered as a trademark, so besides the name + Catania + the typical aunt you may find also "Marka deposita(ta)". Somewhere you can find also the French "depose", that suggests to me that the trademark might have been internationaly registered under the Madrid Agreement, which only official language is the French language and bearing in mind that the Puglisi instruments were handled all over Europe.

And a note to Jim... A trademark does not indicate the country of origin. The main idea of a trademark (especially then) is to indicate that a certain product is manufactured by a certain company. Nowadays it has changed a little bit, although this still remains a major characteristic of a trademark, in the direction of distinguishing the goods and services of a company from the goods and services of another company. The appelation of origin is what refers to the fact that certain product comes from certain region (in this case it is not so important which is the manufacturer, but where the product comes from - Shampagne, Bordo are amongst the most popular appelations of origin.) So, what would a fake or non-popular mandolin builder in the begining of XX c. in Italy most probably do? Stamp on his no-name mandolin "Catania" or "Napoli", of course. By the way that was not done always in bad faith, what one can probably think. An appelation of origin is always to be registered by a guild or association of manufacturers of certain region.

Best,
Plamen

----------


## brunello97

No worries, Plamen, I took no offense at all. I'm sorry if my answer suggested that. I was a bit puzzled by the labeling and marking on these Puglisi mandolins myself and your questions and answers have helped alot. #I did a search here as well and found a previous post of yours with more background information on the firm. #You do know quite a bit about them and I appreciate your explanation. (I'd love to hear more....)

Since I have a number of images of their work in my folders I thought I'd post a few to see where my confusion lay and hope we could all benefit from trying to clear it up. #I really do like their work and always keep an eye out for it. I have a modest Puglisi bowlback which is under repair and a very curious mandola which I enjoy playing quite a bit. 

BTW in referring to Giuseppe, I should have used the Italian padre instead of pere (father in French) as we have been referring to the first of our presidents with the current one's name.

That said, we still haven't figured out the 'Roma' reference unless it is as you say a 'bogus' stamp. # The bowlback I have has a similar 'shield' style strikeplate as on this flatback, but also the more typical Puglisi stamp.

thanks!

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

No Roma stamp, but this Puglisi is probably rather more worthwhile than the pocket one. Very Calace-esque.

This Loveri looks very good to me -- a step above the (already rather nice) basic Loveris in execution, and in what looks to be nice condition.

Once again we get a seller who is utterly convinced he is sitting on a goldmine -- this no-name junk has a starting bid of 250 Pounds, and an even higher reserve!

A reasonable double pack here: one Stridente and one Loveri. The Stridente is in better condition, but the Loveri probably the better instrument. They seem to have pretty identical headstocks, so I guess one could swap the hardware over.

A Roman mandolin by Emanuele Egildo. Don't know anything about him, so no idea if it's worth the 400 Pounds the seller wants.

This French Euterpia may be quite reasonable, too, although the bridge looks to be a replacement.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

A slightly battered Monzino.

I'm sure Victor has discussed him, but I can't remember if Sakis is one of the better Greek luthiers or not.

Errrm, _interesting_ colour scheme on this down-and-out bowlback. Interesting tuners, too.

Martin

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hi,

OK, Mick, let's try to find out something more about "Puglisi" together! 

Martin, thank you for the link to the Puglisi! It looks pretty much like the Puglisi of Normann Robert's father discussed on the board few years ago. Page 30/31 of the thread.

BTW is there a way to search inside a specified topic? It takes a lot of time to find something in this particular thread...

Best,
Plamen

----------


## vkioulaphides

"Sakis" is the trade-name for the firm of Dionisios Matsikas, also found here. This is the only _mass_-producer of bouzoukis, mandolins, etc. in Greece. I would hate to call Matsikas the "Greek Musikalia", as his products are --with a humph of national pride # -- FAR better than what comes out Don Alfio's consortium. 

Yet a mass producer is, well, what one such is. # #The instrument in question is priced close to the price-as-new; one can easily contact Matsikas (they are prompt to reply, and understand English adequately) and compare. 

I do not actually _own_ any instruments from Sakis' shop. I have visited the retail store in the outskirts of Athens repeatedly (not the factory in Messolonghi, where one famed Lord Byron perished poetically). They truly have a HUGE selection of instruments. I have heard complaints of sloppy "finish-work" from customers, e.g. nut-grooves, planing of the bridge, etc. (nothing that can't be fixed by an inevitable set-up by ANY new owner), but I don't know that such flaws could be altogether damning.

In the larger scheme of things, if a factory can churn out mandolins by the dozens (or rather hundreds), afford folks decent player-instruments for 200-300 euros and up, well... I give them credit for it. I don't think that ANY other mass-producer (e.g. Musikalia, Miroglio, or the Asian shops) gives you as favorable a price-to-value ratio as Sakis does. Now, whether a _particular_ player would benefit from this, or any other _particular_ instrument from Sakis, that I couldn't tell. 

At the very least, I am happy to translate upon request from Sakis' revamped, and awkwardly monolingual site.


Cheers,

Victor

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## vkioulaphides

These are the mandolins on offer by Sakis at this time. Some, I dare say, are rather pretty, no?  

Cheers,

Victor

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## brunello97

Interesting looking Stridente, Martin. They don't resemble either of mine. I have not seen one like this before-either the headstock or the strikeplate, though so many have crossed through the UK ebay. Stridente also seems to have a fairly wide range of models and quality levels.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

> A Roman mandolin by Emanuele Egildo. #Don't know anything about him, so no idea if it's worth the 400 Pounds the seller wants.


I have a few Egildo mandolins in my image files. All of them appear well-appointed and in good condition. I have no further information besides the images, though Egildo appears on William Petit's site name checked along with Calace, Embergher, and Vinaccia. Heady company.

But here is a 'mandole' by Egildo which sold on ebay.fr for 481e, which seems to put this one in context. "...born in Rome and finished his life in France, was inspired by Embergher...." (more or less.)

http://cgi.ebay.fr/Mandole....iewItem

Very nice and clean looking work.  Any first hand experience with his work?

Mick

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hi Mick,

I found one more pocket mandolin pretty much like the previous two, that we discussed here. It is also referred to as "Puglisi Reale i Figli" Catania. I think three examples of these should be enough for us to accept with certain level of confidence that these mandolins come really from the Puglisi factory. So, you were right in your supposition! The "Roma" stamp is still confusing me, but as pointed above, it could be everything.

BTW, take a look at the whole collection. I don't remember whether someone has already pointed to this or not. Although the instruments might not be of great value, there are certainly some very interesting pieces. This Scandinavian language is a little bit confusing, but not such a great problem.

Good luck!
Plamen

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Plamen, I think we have a match there for the Puglisi, though it is a pity it is in such condition. The Nordic site is a nice collection as you say. Very interesting assortment of mandolins. I'll keep an eye out for further interesting examples and post them when I can. Maybe we will clear up the Roma issue.

Mick

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## Bob A

Puglisi pochette went for $282. More than a C-note higher than my max, thankfully. Loss without regret: it's very Zen.

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## Graham McDonald

Ebay Australia has a Raphael Callace mando on offer <a href="http://http://cgi.ebay.com.au/RAFFAELE-CALACE-MANDOLIN_W0QQitemZ320212050302QQihZ011QQcategoryZ3  59QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ

1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here</a>

(I finally worked out how to imbed a link!)

graham

----------


## Neil Gladd

> (I finally worked out how to imbed a link!)


Almost! (You had http twice.)  

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com.au/RAFFAELE-CALACE-MANDOLIN_W0QQitemZ320212050302QQihZ011QQcategoryZ3  59QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ

%3Cbr%3E%3Cbr%3E1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here</a> is the corrected link.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Oh, I'm sure it _sounds_ good, but the _looks_ of these, higher-end Calaces... _mamma mia!_  

Best of luck to those bidding!

----------


## Graham McDonald

Bugger (Australian expression of mild annoyance)

----------


## trebleclef528

Graham I just click on your website and am very impressed with your PDF on mandolin history... well done!

Any idea how much your mandolin Project book will cost??

Cheers
Ian
(Scotland... very wet and windy... with lots of mandolins flying around the house!)

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## Graham McDonald

Hello Ian

Not sure of the price yet, but I am hoping around US$35. Depends on the printing costs as much as anything

cheers

graham

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## Bob A

Looks vaguely like a (somewhat diminished) Vega bridge on the Calace.

Australia seems to be an interesting source of 20's Calace mandolins. Every now and then a few pop up on the 'bay. Nearly as surprising as the Uruguay Connection.

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

> Looks vaguely like a (somewhat diminished) Vega bridge on the Calace.
> 
> Australia seems to be an interesting source of 20's Calace mandolins. Every now and then a few pop up on the 'bay. Nearly as surprising as the Uruguay Connection.


It might not necessarily be a Vega bridge, but in any case it is reversed. And the Australian connection might not be so strange. A lot of Italians migrated to Australia after WW II.

----------


## Graham McDonald

> Australia seems to be an interesting source of 20's Calace mandolins. Every now and then a few pop up on the 'bay. Nearly as surprising as the Uruguay Connection.


It might be just that one of the big retailers here in the 20s/30s had a deal going with Calace during that period and brought lots out. Both Sydney and Melbourne (the two major cities) had large music shops which sold instruments sheet music and records. Last year I posted a couple of pics of two rather nice Calaces a friend in Sydney came across. One of them came from a collection of 50+ which were/are for sale, but most of it low end bowlbacks. The two Calaces are still available if anyone is seriously interested, he told me last week. 

The Sydney Mandolin Orchestra started in the early 30s and is still going, so there was a level of mandolin interest 70-80 years ago. #Sydney hosted the national mandolin camp a couple of weeks ago with over 100 participants playing mostly contemporary Australian mandolin music. A Cafe member came out from the east coast of the US to lead the guitar section if memory serves me correctly.

cheers

graham

----------


## Fliss

Here's a rather ornate #Ceccherini

And a De Meglio 

Fliss

----------


## vkioulaphides

After a few days of chilling indifference, the quasi-Embergher-Model-A Egildo sold, for about GBP 500. I must admit that I did toy with the idea of bidding, but this instrument's "not-quite-so" specs turned me off-- I did briefly correspond with the seller: the fingerboard was flat-ish, the nut wide-ish, the neck not-too-sharply-V-shaped, the bowl rather stout.

This is not to say, of course, that there was anything "wrong" with the instrument; I wish the new owner all the best with it. It WAS, after all, in good health from what I could tell from the photos. It's just that, relative to my current quest, it just wasn't "Roman _enough_". If I want a narrow-at-the-nut, flat-fingerboard, stout Neapolitan, well... I've already got one!  

Also best of luck to the seekers of De Meglios and Ceccherinis; I've owned one of each, and loved them both. They are in better, busier, more attentive hands now.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Martin Jonas

Fliss's link doesn't work for me, so here is another link to the Ceccherini. This seller appears to have a never-ending supply of them. This particular one is indeed rather fancy, although I prefer the greater simplicity of mine (see my avatar on the left). Isn't yours like this, Bob?

I also wonder what the blob-like thing to the right of the fretboard next to the neck joint is. Some sort of putty? An improvised pickguard? An inserted bit of wood to replace worn-away soundboard? 

Martin

----------


## Fliss

Thanks Martin, I've now (hopefully!) corrected the link. #For some reason, one of my other links had stopped working altogether and I couldn't find a way to fix it, so I've deleted it.

Good point about that different coloured patch on the Ceccherini it does look like it might be a repair of some kind, but it's hard to make out. #

Fliss

----------


## arbarnhart

Did you see this in the main forum?

Eastman bowlbacks

----------


## vkioulaphides

They look healthy and robust; the proverbial pudding, of course, is in the eating. I await reviews...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

Plami et al, I think I've found a key to the Puglisi-Roma mystery of a week or so back. (Remember the maple-bowled pochette?)  Here is a Puglisi label from a flatback in very sad condition.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=008

I had bid a bit on this but have more manageable (for me at least) projects on my table at the moment.

The 'Roma' label appears an overlay on the original Puglisi label. I have seen this before on the Catanian's mandolins, but had never saved an image. My hunch is that this might be what is in the little bowlback. Of course no way to be certain unless the ultimate buyer crosses our paths.

The sad shape of the flatback is a pity but does little to dampen my enthusiasm for this quirky builder.

Mick

----------


## JeffD

I get the impression I could go to the UK or to Greece or to any number of other places, and find the land just thick with bowlbacks. You have to step over the Ceccherinis and De Meglios just to cross the street, and every tree grows ripe Calaces.

I am so jealous.

 


I would like to own a Ceccherini at some point. I would have to be going to the UK anyway, because it would not make sense to fly over for one. I don't think.

I also have my eye on those new Eastmans. I want to see what others think after playing them, but I am optimistic.

----------


## vkioulaphides

I only _wish_ things were that rosy, mandolin-wise, in Greece. Most shops --those that have ANY mandolins to begin with!-- have generic, and VERY low-end stuff: bottom-drawer Miroglios, no-name Catanians, some Korean and other nondescript Asian products hanging from the rafters. Not a particularly pretty picture, if you know anything about mandolins.  Ironically, Greek-made mandolins are nearly invisible in their native market!

On the other hand, there are still about 20-30 luthiers in Greece who build mandolins-- IF you know where to find them. It would be my fondest dream indeed to rekindle the interest in mandolin-building in Greece. But, of course, there are only so many mandolins I can personally buy. A few of my luthier acquaintances have hinted, all too subtly, that they would be willing to let me take some instrument(s) of theirs to the States in good faith, and "show them around". I trust that I am not reading TOO much into this when I believe that they would like me to _sell_ them on their behalf.  

That won't happen. I don't have the time, the interest, or the inclination to hang a shingle outside my apartment house, declaring that a certain Purveyor of Hellenic Chordophona is in business therein. I have --only once, for a friend, non-profit-- bought and brought over a nice, middle-of-the-road Greek mandolin to the U.S. I have not offered to do the same for others, not for lack of amity, but due to the currently unfavorable currency exchange conditions: euro-denominated items are bitingly pricey.  

Also, of course, if I were to import and sell, say, Brand XYZ mandolins, I would lose much (most?) of the credibility that comes with candor and personal disinterest. And that is a price I will never want to pay. I'd rather be here, among friends, and praise or lambast any instrument I love or despise respectively. 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

While we're waiting patiently for the Great Bowlback Revival to stock the shelves, there's a Vega Lansing Special in the Classifieds for what seems to be a very reasonable price. (No financial interest).

The seller also has an Italian for even less. Anyone lurking about looking for their first bowlback might give these some consideration.

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

> Plami et al, I think I've found a key to the Puglisi-Roma mystery of a week or so back. (Remember the maple-bowled pochette?)  Here is a Puglisi label from a flatback in very sad condition.
> 
> 
> The 'Roma' label appears an overlay on the original Puglisi label. I have seen this before on the Catanian's mandolins, but had never saved an image. My hunch is that this might be what is in the little bowlback.


So, there is NO Roma connection. Is that what you think? Because that is what i think as well. Or i got you wrong?!

Or at least no Roma connection as regards the manufacturing. May be regarding the distribution. This Roma connection is to be found always on strange Puglisi instruments...

Why should one put Roma label over the original label or stamp Roma on the soundboard? Still strange for me.

----------


## brunello97

So, Plami, you have seen this 'Roma (Italia)' label before as well? #I think you are probably right that this has something to do with distributing and sales. #

When you say "this Roma connection is to be found always on strange Puglisi instruments" do you mean on less common models such as the pochette or the flatback? #Both the maple pochette and the flatback have tailpieces one more commonly sees on US models. #I have seen a different attached label ("Depose-Geshutz" I think it read) on Puglisis found on ebay.de (and elsewhere.) # Is it too much to guess that the "Roma (Italia)" was also an export market designation?

It is true (and perhaps likely) that the pochette and flatback tailpieces are replacements, but it does make me wonder. #

Mick

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Hi, Mick!

No, i haven't seen this "Roma" label before. And "Yes", that's exactly what i mean about the Roma connection appearing on less common Puglisi models. You are also right about the tailpieces have been replaced. The tailpiece on my Puglisi is not original as well. Nothing wrong with the "Depose-Geschutzt". It refers to the brand beeing registered.

Best,
Plamen

----------


## Jim Garber

Yea another Embergher A.

----------


## brunello97

> Yea another Embergher A.


Call me dull, but this is the Embergher headstock style I prefer over the 'bottle-opener' type. Though this A head seems kind of larger proportionally--maybe it is the photo angle.

And check the really butch tuners. Some serious metal.

Mick

----------


## Keith Miller

Baroque style mandolin in UK from the 20s he says
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Marvellous-mandolin-of-baroque-form-in-great-condition_W0QQitemZ150212961131QQihZ005QQcate

goryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Marvell....iewItem</a>

----------


## Martin Jonas

> And check the really butch tuners. #Some serious metal.


Butch, maybe. #Not original, though. #The plates have been trimmed at the tip to make them fit, and there is some differently-coloured wood showing around the edges, presumably where it would have been covered over by the original tuners.

The "baroque" mandolin on Ebay UK is a bit of a Frankenstein's monster. #I'd say German from the 1920s, and built along the lines of those ubuquitous guitar lutes of the period. #Some sort of vague similarity to a Lombard instrument, but this one appears to have been made for steel strings and Neapolitan tuning. #I'd be sceptical regarding musical value.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Good eye, Martin. Those things look like they could power some industrial machinery.


Mick

----------


## brunello97

The of the above Embergher type A has a Puglisi bowlback 'inspired' by same. #Decidedly less elegant and illustrative by comparison of the refinement of the Roman mandolin.

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-MANDOLIN-BY-PUGLISI-REALE-FIGLI-1908_W0QQitemZ190197061848QQihZ009QQcategoryZ10179
QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE....iewItem</a>

Mick

----------


## trebleclef528

Not a particularly stunning mandolin but <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/JAPANESE-MANDOLIN-MASAKICHI-SUZUKI-INSTRUMENT-MUSIC-NR_W0QQitemZ120220446069QQihZ002QQcate
goryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> by "Masakichi Suzuki" is one I have never seen before, and note the strings "made in occupied Japan.. any knowledge of this mando?

----------


## brunello97

Here is an interesting ad from Sears which draws mandolins model names further into the curious world surrounding the US's late entry into the post Spanish-American war 'Colonial Bowl'.  Here 'The Conqueror", "The Defiance" and "The Competitor" do lower end competition with Ditson's "Empire" and "Victory" models. 

I wonder if Boehm or Pattenotte or GFoley tried out a "Metternich" model over across the pond? Our post Garibaldian Italian friends either wisely or luckily sat this phase out. The worse, obviously, was yet to come.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Here is another early US bowlback-from the Indianapolis incarnation of Regal. The bidding is up over $500-probably in some way due to the Handel tuners. Overall a nice looking mandolin. I hope it is not headed to a chop-shop. 

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

This is an interesting one, bearing a label with the name "Vinaccia" and the year 1927. I think we've seen this label before, but I'm not sure whether we came to a conclusion of whether this was genuinely how Vinaccias were labelled in 1927, or whether by that late time the name had become generic and was used as a model name by an unrelated luthier (along the lines of the Calace model made by Guriema). For what it's worth, other than these late ones, all Vinaccia labels I've seen say either "Fratelli Vinaccia" or give a specific first name, such as Giuseppe Vinaccia or Gaetano Vinaccia.

In any case, this one does look pretty nice and well-made, so it may be the real thing.

To move swiftly to the other end of the market, this German creation has an interesting bowl -- a rather chunkier approach to scalloped ribs -- but is otherwise a basket case.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

To my knowledge, the Vinaccia moniker has not become generic --at least not to anywhere near the same extent-- as Calace has. Guriema is hardly exceptional in offering "Calace _type_", non-Calace instruments; several other (often Japanese) luthiers/shops do the same. Vinaccia on the other hand has this spurious lineage of self-proclaimed _allievi_... 

Incidentally, the rosewood-bowled Embergher A on "Best Offer" already went, well before expiration. Presumably someone made the seller an offer he could not refuse. Oh, well...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

> This is an interesting one, bearing a label with the name "Vinaccia" and the year 1927.


For comparison here is a 1926 Flli. Vinaccia with a more conventional label. Reasonable starting bid for a restorable mandolin. It is interesting to see one this late with a four-post tailpiece. Upon further study of the photo it looks like there was another tailpiece at one time and perhaps a previous owner took it off and replaced it with those 4 ivoiroid pins.

----------


## Jim Garber

I just checked my files for other 1920s Vinaccias and came across the same label in one from 1923 (see attached). As you can see, it is a German import label and it looks like Modern Musik was a rep for Vinaccia in Germany and Switzerland back then.

----------


## Fliss

A De Meglio in need of some tlc 

Fliss

----------


## Fliss

...and a rather nice looking Embergher 

Fliss

----------


## vkioulaphides

_Tipo B_-- with all due respect, my least favorite aesthetically (but only because I associate that sort of decorative pickguard with some truly awful German instruments of yesteryear). 

This is by the same seller who brought that Egildo to market; considering that _that_ one went for over GBP 500, the "real thing" will surely go well above the opening price of GBP 1,000-- which is, oh... a quarter-million dollars by now, to begin with. # 

I am not up to be Oktavian's Marschallin. # 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Martin Jonas

A somewhat unusual Tipo B, though. #Don't they normally have checkerboard binding? #This one differs from a Tipo A only through the scratchplate, tortoiseshell with inlay instead of plain ebony. #It's quite a late one, so maybe he had changed the design by then. #Looks to be in fine condition.

Same seller as my Ceccherini, too. #He was a brand new Ebay seller when I visited him to pick the Ceccherini up in person, but he had already been a specialised vintage instrument dealer (mainly violins and flutes) for a long time then. #He's had a steady stream of classy mandolins in good condition since then.

Martin

----------


## billkilpatrick

very pretty baroque mandolin on italian ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-napolet...mZ110223906229

----------


## Martin Jonas

If I understand the listing correctly, this instrument was used in the recording of three albums by Ensemble Baschenis, and presumably belongs to one of the members of the ensemble. There are a number of mp3s here, but it's not clear whether they feature this particular instrument. The ensemble also has a recording at the Cafe's MP3 page.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

I must suppress a malicious snicker at observing that the auction for the(somewhat odd) Tipo B just expired, without a single bid. Perhaps the seller's _opening_ bid of GBP 1,000 was too rich for the clientele's (collective) blood... _Recession_, anyone?

----------


## Jim Garber

> I must suppress a malicious snicker at observing that the auction for the(somewhat odd) Tipo B just expired, without a single bid. Perhaps the seller's _opening_ bid of GBP 1,000 was too rich for the clientele's (collective) blood... _Recession_, anyone?


"The seller ended this listing early because of an error in the listing."

I am never sure what that means but usually it means that the seller has received an offer he/she could not refuse. Feel free to snicker if it comes on eBay again from the same seller.

----------


## Martin Jonas

The 1927 Vinaccia went for only 360 Pounds. If it is really from the Vinaccia stable, and if they still had reasonable quality standards in 1927, I would think that was a steal. I do rather like the look of that one.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "The seller ended this listing early because of an error in the listing."


A euphemism, perhaps, much like the common "CEO Mr. X has resigned from his post to pursue his other endeavors".  Oh, Jim, a ~little~ _Schadenfreude_ does even the meekest some good, however ineffectual, no?

Incidentally (but parenthetically), I must say I LOVED your Calace mandola that you were gracious enough to let me play for a minute or two the other evening. While of course it _can_ potentially take octave-stringing (as the scale is a spacious *17* inches, if I remember correctly), it really, REALLY sings with the CGDA-tuned, bronze-wound strings you had on. It's a lovely instrument, and I wish you much joy in playing it. I will enjoy hearing it played at Carlo's workshop.

I am also eager to hear of developments regarding your Embergher. The buzzes you complained of cannot be anything a little sliver of wood under the bridge cannot fix...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Yes Victor. I will give you some more time to play that mandola. In some ways I would love to restring it as an octave and see how it sounds. Perhaps with Calace strings.

Yes, I have to find time and or expert hands to adjust that Embergher. Mr. Decava has a rather steep minimum charge tho maybe I can convince him to do a small job as part of some others. When i have the resources to deal with all that.

In the meantime, lots of practice for the impending Aonzo Extravaganza.

----------


## Jim Garber

Certainly a BBON for sale: 1905 Vinaccia liuto attributed to Samuel Adelstein. 

I have seen this one before somewhere and I believe that there was a matching Vinaccia mandolin. I think i havce some pics of it in my files.

----------


## vkioulaphides

*SPECTACULAR!!! FANTASTICO!!! ERSTAUNLICH!!! GEWELDIG!!!*

(I will not be bidding on this, of course, as my Large Instrument Era is slated to _end_ in time, not _transmute_.  )

That said, this is a splendid-looking instrument. Let's hope a loving and deserving new owner "adopts" it.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## vkioulaphides

And <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Michele-Maratea-antique-Vinaccia-mandolin-napoli_W0QQitemZ130198340738QQihZ003QQcategoryZ1
0179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here</a> is a... *ahem*... _drastically_ made-over Maratea (for as much as the original authorship can be discerned beneath all the bling).

----------


## Keith Miller

why the cover over the tuners, is this common ?

----------


## Keith Miller

here is the body, looks like a new tail piece

----------


## trebleclef528

> why the cover over the tuners, is this common ?


 It's not common to have covers on the front although I have seen them before. More common especially on some of the more higher quality bowlbacks, were "enclosed machine heads" at the back of the head, and as far as I know this was/is to protect from dust and dirt etc.

----------


## Eugene

> Certainly a BBON for sale: 1905 Vinaccia liuto attributed to Samuel Adelstein. 
> 
> I have seen this one before somewhere and I believe that there was a matching Vinaccia mandolin. I think i havce some pics of it in my files.


Images of that instrument and its wee mandolin twin used to be posted at Spruce Tree Music in WI. The liuto itself used to be owned by Paul Ruppa. I know he had told me he had sold it, but I don't know where it went after that. Perhaps Linda would care to elaborate...or I can write Paul when I have access to my office e-mail.

----------


## Keith Miller

There is something about fluted backs that I like 
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HIGH-QUALITY-FLUTED-BOWLBACK-MANDOLIN-VINACCIA-SCHOOL_W0QQitemZ330214501617QQihZ014QQcateg

oryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HIGH-QU....iewItem</a>

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is a Puglisi clearly modelled after an Embergher. #Just to show there's nothing new in the world, this one seems to have the extension scooped by a previous owner. #It's not just bluegrassers who experience pick click...

I barely know what to say about this one. #The maker has thrown everything he can think of on this one, except good taste. #Fluted ribs, sleeve protector, D-shaped soundhole, HUGE pickguard, inlaid initial, inlaid charioteer figure, the mysterious two holes (off-centre, like on German flatbacks, not underneath the strings like on Calace). #All of that sounds rather Calace-esque, but the headstock, the V-shaped neck and the arrow-like bridge are more Embergher insprired. #The soundboard is so busy, there's barely any resonating spruce left. #No label, but I'd guess German rather than Italian. #I also think there's some warping in the neck and the top around the soundhole.

Rather more desirable is this Monzino. Only a few hours to go, and at only 111 Euro it's a snip!

Another dubious inlay picture here. Lohengrin, I think. Most amusing starting bid. I wonder where some people get their idea of value from?

Ver strange soundhole on this one.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> There is something about fluted backs that I like 
> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HIGH-QUALITY-FLUTED-BOWLBACK-MANDOLIN-VINACCIA-SCHOOL_W0QQitemZ330214501617QQihZ014QQcateg
> 
> 
> oryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HIGH-QU....iewItem</a>


The seller is our own Ian Steele, who has a few other choice items in the bowlback dept. including a rather clean looking DeMeglio.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> ... a rather clean looking DeMeglio.


Albeit without label, which is a bit of a problem with De Meglios. This one does look authentic, though, from the quality of the workmanship.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

This nice 1974 Calace just appeared in the classifieds sold by Fliss (I think). Could be a nice one for someone looking for a good quality BB.

BTW I think it is a model 24 -- the little sister to my mandola.

----------


## vkioulaphides

The condition appears impeccable, and the price is right... (slight grinding of teeth at eBayers with starting bids of umpteen megazillion dollars). Looks like this one would make one in pursuit of a quality bowlback a VERY happy person.

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## Fliss

> This nice 1974 Calace just appeared in the classifieds sold by Fliss (I think). Could be a nice one for someone looking for a good quality BB.
> 
> BTW I think it is a model 24 -- the little sister to my mandola.


Yes it is mine, and yes it is a very nice one, thanks Jim, I'll add that info about the model number to the ad  

Fliss

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## Jim Garber

Here ya go... 1899 Martin Style 6

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## brunello97

> Here ya go... 1899 Martin Style 6


This is a beauty. I tossed in a gentleman's bid and plan to follow it awhile, but expect a rapid escalation out of my reach. 

Some wonky tuner bending, and small repairs I suppose. But it has quite a wonderful neck-to headstock veneer-to tuner coverplate detail to my eye. (Carlo Scarpa would probably approve.) The MOP edging on the top around the fretboard is new to me. I'm not sure if I like how it meets the soundhole trim. Beautiful wood selection and no doubt it sounds quite good.

Martin prices have been going up and up. I wonder where this will wind up.

Mick

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## billkilpatrick

don't see these up for auction very often:

http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino_W0QQitemZ120227717370

----------


## billkilpatrick

having said that ... here's something similar on french ebay: 

http://cgi.ebay.fr/RARISSI....0715538

----------


## Jim Garber

One Brescian (4 string tuned like a Neapolitan but with gut/nylon strings) and one Lombard (six strings tuned more or less in fourths).

It looks like the Lombard is made by the same maker as mine, Serafino Casini of Firenze.

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## Jim Garber

Re: Martin Style 6

Mine does not have the pearl around the fretboard end. I posted pics of mine way back at the beginning of the post a pic of bowlback thread. What I find amazing about these upper end Martins is that no two are alike in ornamentation even to the tailpiece covers. This one on eBay has a rather ornate tp cover, mine is plainer. I wonder if these were all each custom creations.

----------


## Eugene

Thanks to gentle persuasion from Carlo (not to mention his citation of period literature) I am more prone to call the 4-stringers of that latter "golden" era "mandolino Toscano." #As many know, I play one by Bavassano e Figlio. #It's tremendous fun.

The Martin style 6 is yummy. #I don't know why the seller suspects the bridge to not be original. #It looks right to me, and in ivory no less. #That profile of tailpiece coverplate is also "right" to Martin's very early production and rare later. #Rather than a replacement, I suspect the coverplate might be a little customization of the original order (I wonder whom "Griffith" was).

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## Jim Garber

> The Martin style 6 is yummy. I don't know why the seller suspects the bridge to not be original. It looks right to, and in ivory no less.


I think that the seller is referring to the saddle/insert, rather than the bridge.

----------


## Eugene

> I think that the seller is referring to the saddle/insert, rather than the bridge.


Indeed. I wouldn't expect translucent there. I wonder if the seller doesn't realize bridge and saddle are relatively independent entities in this style of bridge.

----------


## Bob A

Newly appearing in Cafe classifieds; a pair of Calace bowlbacks.

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## vkioulaphides

Interesting... Of course, I doubt that _either_ is the lowly Model 24, as the seller believes: the "fancy pickguard" on the rosewood-bowled instrument suggests a higher-end model; the maple-bowled instrument may be Classico B. If reasonably priced, these should be good to have, play, and enjoy.

----------


## brunello97

I love the eccentric circles at the soundhole on the 1963. And the top wood looks fantastic. 

Mick

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## Eugene

I love that offset, tapered rosette style too. Kasserman also used it to tremendous effect.

----------


## chey47

Hi vkioulaphides, I was wondering what you think a good price for the rosewood calace might be?

Thanks Joe

----------


## Jim Garber

That Martin 6 is still reasonable with only a few hours to go. Could be a bargain??

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## brunello97

Yo, &gt;$2100 on the Martin 6. I haven't been tracking prices much of late. Still, in terms of scarcity, craft and (assumed) tonality-and probably investment value-it probably is a pretty good deal. I first saw the ad on a low end monitor and didn't realize the bowl was scalloped. Very nice. I hope the auction winner stops by to gloat a little bit. And show off as well....

Mick

----------


## Jonathan Peck

I like the sound ports on this Neapolitan Mandoline<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1901-Luigi-Dorigo-unique-Italian-Neapolitan-Mandoline_W0QQitemZ130202743811QQihZ003QQcateg
oryZ10179QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m  153.l1262" target="_blank">1901 Luigi Dorigo</a>

----------


## Bob A

The De Meglio style ports are cute, the bridge is interesting, the price is absurd. Odd, too, to find a Vinaccia type peghead on one of these?

----------


## Fliss

This Ceccherini has just cropped up - I'm not entirely sure from the photos, but I think I can see a glimpse of a double top?

Fliss

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## Martin Jonas

Ceccherini: Hey, yet another one of those in North Wales. Rhyl is very close to me, and I had bought the 10-string (which I've since sold again) from an Ebayer in Old Colwyn, just a few miles further along the coast. This one has had a somewhat harder life than mine, but is otherwise pretty similar. The tailpiece cover is non-original. I'm sure it has a double top, but what you can see on the full-frontal photo is the edge of the label, I think.

Dorigo: This one has been around at an absurd asking price for a few months now, and will stay for another few months unless the seller drops his opening bid. Interesting creature: the bowl is de Meglio, but the scratchplate inlay, fret markers and headstock shape remind me more of Ceccherini (or indeed Vinaccia). The metal bridge is very peculiar, but I think it's probably original -- there was another Dorigo on Ebay Germany last month (at a  _much_ more sensible price) and it had the same strange bridge. Looks like it's screwed to the soundboard, too. Urghh.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Here is one of the nicer Antonio Grauso bowls I've seen on the ebay. There is no picture of the label unfortunately. I've long wondered if Grauso jobbed work on both sides of the Atlantico. Very pretty maple bowl. It went for a fairly decent price for what I assume is a US bowl. (I'm guessing I'm wrong there as this seems such a hybrid of details.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=022

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is an 1897 Kisslinger. Photos are too poor to say much more, and the mention of the recent repair would need to be explored for peace of mind. Maybe just the usual separation between the staves.

Maybe not very much "of note", but curious at least: this is a triple-strung mandolin in the style of those naff German guitar-lutes. For what it is, it seems quite well-made.

Another curious 12-string here. Fairly conventional, except for a charming variation on the de-Meglio side holes. Nice rosewood, too.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> There is no picture of the label unfortunately. I've long wondered if Grauso jobbed work on both sides of the Atlantico.


Here is one Grauso label. AG was one of those who touted himself as a disciple of Luigi Ricca, who I guess, was considered in the New York italian worlds as the equiv of the Vinaccia clan.

----------


## Jim Garber

I assume that this is a later label when AG realized that the Ricca connection was not such a great marketing ploy.

----------


## brunello97

Jim, the second Grauso label you posted is the one I'm familiar with. I like the earlier one very much. I wonder if the 'Naples-New York' was a marketing ploy or referred to work imported (and finished in the US?) or some other version of out-in sourcing. To my eye the Ricca and Grauso bowlbacks share more of an old world vibe than many of the larger US shops building at the time.

And speaking of AtlanticRim US-Italian builders there are a couple of albeit very modest Manellos on the ebay at the moment. (No sign of the Manello opulence.) Very unremarkable except for a clean overall design elegance. Here's one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=006

Mick

----------


## jamface

Does anyone have any information about 1922 Calace 45-A models? Where do they fit in the Calace range of that period? Travis Finch is advertising his in the Cafe classifieds.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Does anyone have any information about 1922 Calace 45-A models? Where do they fit in the Calace range of that period? Travis Finch is advertising his in the Cafe classifieds.


Carlo Mazzacarra has one for sale on this page. Calaces never seem to have the model on the label for some reason. I am not that familiar with the model numbers from that era but I am also not so sure that that number is the model number. It is hand-written at the top of the label. 

Perhaps someone else has more knowledge in this area.

----------


## trebleclef528

I have only have one thing to say about <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline_W0QQitemZ170202600440QQihZ007QQcategoryZ  21591QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewIt
em" target="_blank">this one</a>AAArgh!! and just in case the link won't work it's on Germany ebay 170202600440

----------


## Bob A

Sort of looking at an accident site; grisly, but you can't quite look away. I want to see the back . . . but not really.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Ee-oo! 

Detoxination urgently needed: some _other_ instrument, anyone?

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Detoxination urgently needed: some _other_ instrument, anyone?


Sure. Here is the 1932 Tipo B Embergher on its second round, this time with a more reasonable starting bid.

Here is a 1906 Christofaro. Not so sure about the soundhole shape on this one: it's not so much D-shaped as an oval with one half covered over.

Anybody need a Waverly cloud tailpiece? here is one, originally from a Vega mandolin banjo.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> I have only have one thing to say about <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline_W0QQitemZ170202600440QQihZ007QQcategoryZ  21591QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewIt
> 
> em" target="_blank">this one</a>AAArgh!! and just in case the link won't work it's on Germany ebay 170202600440


For posterity...

----------


## billkilpatrick

... you're all prejudicial and hornist.

----------


## brunello97

Here is a quite ornate Wurlitzer that went for a decent price:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=019

Now I understand Wurlitzer to have been only in resale, not in fabrication. Any ideas on the provenance? L+H would be my default base on other RW, but the fluted bowl, apparently laminated neck and hole-in-the-headstock seem out of the ordinary. More instruments get attributed to the Larson bros. than do splinters to the True Cross so I tread carefully there.  Any thoughts?

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Obviously a top-of-line or presentation model May Flower by Flower & Groehsl (or however you spell it). His daughter was the May on the label.

I have a scanned catalog here. The one on eBay looks like a model 10 (last page of mandolins.

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## Bob A

In Italy, what appears to be an Embergher mandola from 1897. Some condition problems, but the bowl looks good enough to eat.

----------


## brunello97

Here is what appears to be a fairly modest Martin (Style 0? 1? Eugene, could you help me with the model type please.....) going for a tidy sum, and not yet reaching the ebay reserve. Another sign of the growing health of the early US bowlback market.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=012

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> Here is what appears to be a fairly modest Martin (Style 0? 1? Eugene, could you help me with the model type please.....)


Well... until Eugene gets here... I will hazard a guess. I say 1910 (by the serial number -- despite what the seller says) style 1.

One other thing I noticed. Most (not all) the Martin pics I have (as well as pics in Longworth's book) show the fretboard with a straight-cut end (no extension). This eBay one and one other earlier pic I have show that extension. I wonder if that was a custom order

----------


## billkilpatrick

ebay italia - interesting tail piece on a fluted bowlback:

----------


## billkilpatrick

and again ...

----------


## Martin Jonas

Well, we've seen a lot of strange designs, but I don't think I've ever seen a square soundhole. Seller doesn't mention the maker's name, but I can make out "Catania" and "Sicilia" on the brand stamp. Outlandish scratchplate motif, too: woman on balcony with peacock.

Martin

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## Bob A

Might be a new low point. Should we look into a "Most Revolting Mandolin" thread?

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is a 1917 Giovanni Haesermann. If I recall correctly, we've decided in the past that this is just an alternative spelling of Giovanni Kaesermann, whose instruments seem to be going for reasonably large sums. Rather Calace-esque instrument.

I think we've seen this fluted bowl before.

We definitely have seen this 10-string Angara & d'Isanto before.

I think our old friend Stringwalker is pushing it a bit by attaching the name "Vinaccia" to this anonymous piece. Or indeed the name "Embergher" to this Puglisi (however nice it appears to be).

I like the tone of confidence in this item description. "Damaged condition -- restorable" indeed.

Martin

----------


## trebleclef528

[quote=martinjonas,Mar. 25 2008, 11:00]I think our old friend Stringwalker is pushing it a bit by attaching the name "Vinaccia" to this anonymous piece. #Or indeed the name "Embergher" to this Puglisi (however nice it appears to be).

I'll bet he's delighted on how the bidding is going on the <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fine-mandolin-mandolino-Puglisi-1913-Embergher-quality_W0QQitemZ260223385842QQihZ016QQcate

goryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Puglisi </a>, see what the mention of Embergher can do.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I like the tone of confidence in this item description. "Damaged condition -- restorable" indeed.


Maybe... just maybe... it is a new design for sound holes (see above) :-)

----------


## Jim Garber

> Well, we've seen a lot of strange designs, but I don't think I've ever seen a square soundhole. Seller doesn't mention the maker's name, but I can make out "Catania" and "Sicilia" on the brand stamp. Outlandish scratchplate motif, too: woman on balcony with peacock.
> 
> Martin


That one has one of those oddball metal(?) bridges. Martin, you have a good memory. Where have we seen that bridge before?

----------


## trebleclef528

Not very often you see one of <a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-depoca-LIRA-anno-1896-Affarone-ENTRA_W0QQitemZ230238453803QQihZ013QQcategoryZ359
QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">these</a> calaces on ebay. And <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-Bowl-back-Mandolin-De-Meglio-Napoli-Mandolino_W0QQitemZ120241532577QQihZ002QQcateg
oryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> De meglio looks absolutely yummy!

----------


## Arto

"And this De meglio looks absolutely yummy!"

Well... shipping to UK £12, shipping anywhere else (including Ireland, for example) £140?!

----------


## Matt Vuksinich

I was fortunate to have bought a similar Calace mandolira last year--tho for a considerably lower price (much as I love it, I don't think it's truly worth the starting bid of 6000 euros--compared to other high quality Calace simple bowlbacks of similar vintage--tho I was probably incredibly lucky--I searched for one of these for several years before mine fortuitously appeared at a local dealer). This was the instrument model played onstage by Lorenzo Andrini, who I believe was one of the two greatest American mandolinists of the 20th century (Apollon being the other--I understand that during the 60s, each had simultaneous ongoing shows in Las Vegas, one at the Flamingo, the other at the Sands. Wisdom of their contemporaries, since deceased, was that Apollon had better left hand technique, but nobody rivaled Andrini's right hand!). This IS, though, a marvelous instrument, my favorite of all my bowlbacks from the Big 3 (Calace, Vinaccia, and Embergher). I've seen comments that it "looks silly"--which perhaps it does?--but the sound and playability are superb. The "horns" of the lyre, I think, don't really provide sonic enhancement, but act as support for the rods to the neck, enabling a longer fingerboard before the neck meets the body. 

My apologies for gushing on so, but this IS a truly marvelous instrument (I don't know about this specific one, but 2 of the 4 I've played [Lorenzo's and mine] were fantastic, superior in all ways to the Turturro (which was similar to the other 2 Calace mandolire I played), who was the other contemporary maker of mandoliras during that epoch--I think Greg Miner's site has some info on those).

In summary: I'd suspect that this is a GREAT instrument, but also suspect that the appropriate price range is more similar to the Gibson A2Z of $4-6K, depending.

----------


## billkilpatrick

> I was fortunate to have bought a similar Calace mandolira last year--tho for a considerably lower price (much as I love it, I don't think it's truly worth the starting bid of 6000 euros--compared to other high quality Calace simple bowlbacks of similar vintage--tho I was probably incredibly lucky--I searched for one of these for several years before mine fortuitously appeared at a local dealer). This was the instrument model played onstage by Lorenzo Andrini, who I believe was one of the two greatest American mandolinists of the 20th century (Apollon being the other--I understand that during the 60s, each had simultaneous ongoing shows in Las Vegas, one at the Flamingo, the other at the Sands. Wisdom of their contemporaries, since deceased, was that Apollon had better left hand technique, but nobody rivaled Andrini's right hand!). This IS, though, a marvelous instrument, my favorite of all my bowlbacks from the Big 3 (Calace, Vinaccia, and Embergher). I've seen comments that it "looks silly"--which perhaps it does?--but the sound and playability are superb. The "horns" of the lyre, I think, don't really provide sonic enhancement, but act as support for the rods to the neck, enabling a longer fingerboard before the neck meets the body. 
> 
> My apologies for gushing on so, but this IS a truly marvelous instrument (I don't know about this specific one, but 2 of the 4 I've played [Lorenzo's and mine] were fantastic, superior in all ways to the Turturro (which was similar to the other 2 Calace mandolire I played), who was the other contemporary maker of mandoliras during that epoch--I think Greg Miner's site has some info on those).
> 
> In summary: I'd suspect that this is a GREAT instrument, but also suspect that the appropriate price range is more similar to the Gibson A2Z of $4-6K, depending.


here's a deviant "f" mandolin with a more subdued lyra motif ... removed gingerly from ebay france with all but the tip of forefinger arched well-away from the keyboard.

i'm not as all-embracing as you, mattrat - both fall in the "instruments i'll probably never want" category - but would a sound sample be possible?

saluti - bill

----------


## Martin Jonas

Ceccherini on Ebay UK. Looks in reasonably good shape. That tailpiece cover is non-original and should be taken off.

Obfuscation in advertising clearly isn't a modern invention: this Gandolfi has a label saying "Sistema de Meglio", but I really can't see even the slightest similarity to a de Meglio in the design.

No-name mandola with rather Tsai-like fretboard inlays -- I wonder whether this is original or whether it has had a Vietnamese make-over?

On to more bizarre matters: Fancy a degree certificate to hang on your wall?

Not sure whether I'll call this one a bowlback, but it definitely is Bill's dream mandolin: the missing link between mandolins and charango. I didn't know armadillos came in this size!

Martin

----------


## trebleclef528

> Obfuscation in advertising clearly isn't a modern invention: this Gandolfi has a label saying "Sistema de Meglio", but I really can't see even the slightest similarity to a de Meglio in the design.


I've seen a few of these in the past where the term "Sistema de Meglio" is used and asked one of my Italian "contacts" about it last year.
He says it doesn't necessarly mean it's in the same style of design (ie the typical De meglio features on the outside), but that the same (technical) system/method of building is used. He said it's a term that was often used by apprentices of builders and he's seen a couple marked Sistema Stridenti (for example).

Don't know if all that makes sense but it sounds logical (having said that i don't think Gandolfi was from the De Meglio camp

----------


## Jim Garber

Nicola Swinburne now has her Adelstein Vinaccia Liuto on eBay.

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Nicola Swinburne now has her Adelstein Vinaccia Liuto on eBay.


Yikes. That is about the 3rd time that instrument has been sold since I have been aware of it over the years. And I still can't afford it.

----------


## Woody Turner

"Nicola Swinburne now has her Adelstein Vinaccia Liuto on eBay." 

Yes, this one looks enticingly familiar. Why hasn't it been snapped up given the sterling pedigree? Do the successive reappearances on the market suggest mechanical issues or player dissatisfaction? How risky would it be for a purchaser (say on the East Coast) to buy this one sight unseen and sound unheard? What would be a reasonable bid?

----------


## Woody Turner

"...sound unheard"

Actually, there are two sound clips on Nicola Swinburne's Web site.

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## Jim Garber

> Originally Posted by  (jgarber @ April 04 2008, 17:05)
> 
> Nicola Swinburne now has her Adelstein Vinaccia Liuto on eBay.
> 
> 
> Yikes. That is about the 3rd time that instrument has been sold since I have been aware of it over the years. And I still can't afford it.


Actually this one is dated 1905 on both labels and I have another set of photos with labels dated 1904. So are there two of these out there?

----------


## Jim Garber

I checked and the 1904 liuto is on the gallery page for Spruce Tree Music in Madison, WI:



> Vinaccia Brothers Liuto Moderno 1904
> Large size instrument by the originators of the Neapolitan style mandolin, 23 curly maple ribs, rosewood neck and fingerboard, 22 1/2" scale, five double courses tuned C-G-D-A-E one octave below the mandolin. This instrument was made for Samuel Adelstein of San Francisco, an important figure in the history of the mandolin orchestra. Shown next to standard bowl style mandolin.


I wonder who has it now.

----------


## trebleclef528

vintage bowlback alto mandolin<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-italian-Alto-mandolin-mandolino-master-piece_W0QQitemZ260227818110QQihZ016QQcatego
ryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">on ebay germany</a>.. as far as i know a very rare instrument nowadays, being sold by "Stringwalker1"

----------


## CraigF

Here is a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-Musikalia-Bowlback-Bowl-Back-Italian-Mandola_W0QQitemZ140222195039QQihZ004QQcategoryZ
10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Mandola</a>. Scale is 16 3/4", so I would guess it's an Alto (CGDA).

----------


## Jim Garber

> vintage bowlback alto mandolin<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-italian-Alto-mandolin-mandolino-master-piece_W0QQitemZ260227818110QQihZ016QQcatego
> 
> 
> ryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">on ebay germany</a>.. as far as i know a very rare instrument nowadays, being sold by "Stringwalker1"


Strange back pattern... it looks like the woods are different woods but maybe it is just the lighting?

----------


## vkioulaphides

Regarding the mandola above, one should of course compare pricing with that of the new instrument currently produced and sold by Musikalia itself. My own --and serious-- concern is whether this instrument is correctly intonated; others by Musikalia, alas, are not.  

But I try to resist *Mla*AS altogether...

----------


## vkioulaphides

To wit: look under Mandolas.

Sky-high euro, dubious intonation... dunno.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Has <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLIN-TWO-FOR-ONE-VINACCIA-SCHUTZ-MAKERS-OLD_W0QQitemZ380015448889QQihZ025QQcategoryZ10
179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> come around before? I suppose it would go under the "Handy-Man Special" category... I am in no position to verify authenticity-- of the _Vinaccia_, that is, not the Schutz.  

Still, if it IS a Vinaccia, and a talented luthier/repairman among us can snap it up for a couple of hundred dollars, it might be a worthwhile project. Once resurrected, it might be worth ten times that. Or, better yet, be a lovely _sounding_ instrument.

I yield the floor to the pricing experts (Jim, you there?), authenticity experts (Alex?), and all our expert builders and restorers of fine mandolins.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## billkilpatrick

interesting mandolin on italian ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.it/Nord-It....9299354

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Still, if it IS a Vinaccia, and a talented luthier/repairman among us can snap it up for a couple of hundred dollars, it might be a worthwhile project. Once resurrected, it might be worth ten times that. Or, better yet, be a lovely _sounding_ instrument.


Other than the missing pickguard, the Vinaccia doesn't actually look in _all_ that bad condition. I suspect it'll still go for over $500.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting bowlback mandola by Michael Iucci in the "Looking for..." section.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is a very nice-looking Herwiga Solist -- pretty much the cream of the old German mandolin makers.

Very definitely "of note": this wonderful 1895 Luigi Salsedo, with fluted rosewood ribs. Looks to be pretty immaculate, with charming hard case.

Rather rare: a 1957 Embergher Tipo A (well, Pecoraro, I guess).

This German bowlback was supposedly built as recently as 1980, and has one of those weird metal bridges Jim has mentioned a couple of weeks ago.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Ceccherini on Ebay UK. #Looks in reasonably good shape. #That tailpiece cover is non-original and should be taken off.


Everybody asleep out there? The Ceccherini went for the starting (and only) bid of 60 Pounds ($120)! There have been a few undervalued Ceccherinis before, but this is absurd.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Ouch. Somebody got a great deal. April is crunch time for me, what with the 15th and end-o-semester project reviews. It does seem like nice deals often float by this time of year. I'm looking forward to May 1.

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

... while the seller of the "Embergher" (i.e. Pecoraro) must have withdrawn the instrument from eBay, having (presumably) been made an offer he/she could not refuse. Or so, at least, it appears...

----------


## Jim Garber

> Has <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLIN-TWO-FOR-ONE-VINACCIA-SCHUTZ-MAKERS-OLD_W0QQitemZ380015448889QQihZ025QQcategoryZ10
> 
> 179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> come around before? I suppose it would go under the "Handy-Man Special" category... I am in no position to verify authenticity-- of the _Vinaccia_, that is, not the Schutz.  
> 
> Still, if it IS a Vinaccia, and a talented luthier/repairman among us can snap it up for a couple of hundred dollars, it might be a worthwhile project. Once resurrected, it might be worth ten times that. Or, better yet, be a lovely _sounding_ instrument.


Well, it looks like that Vinaccia is on its way to Vietnam or Taiwan for a facelift. Another vintage mandolin bites the dust.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> ... while the seller of the "Embergher" (i.e. Pecoraro) must have withdrawn the instrument from eBay, having (presumably) been made an offer he/she could not refuse. Or so, at least, it appears...


Well, what it actually says is a message I've never seen on an Ebay auction before:




> _Der Verkäufer hat diese Auktion vorzeitig beendet, da der Artikel zerstört wurde und daher nicht mehr verkauft werden kann._


Which translates as:




> _The seller has ended the auction prematurely, as the article has been destroyed and can therefore no longer be sold._


Somewhat drastic, n'est-ce pas?

But on the other hand, I was right on the Vinaccia price: well over $500 ($711, actually). Pity that the above message _will_ soon be accurate for this poor mandolin.

Martin

----------


## Bob A

My German being pretty feeble, I'm wondering of the info on the Salsedo includes any caveats regarding condition or playability, or restrictions regarding selling/shipping to the US? 

I don't need another mandolin, but I'm exceeedingly partial to Salsedos, and could easily be tempted. Probably better to succumb to a mandolin than to the myriad other possibilities . . .

----------


## brunello97

Bob, my wife says my German language skills have reached a level at which the average Deutsche can no longer understand what I am saying....Nonetheless it seems like a clean bill of health from the seller, but for the some minor sounding case issues-but what a case. #I had tossed in a bid, mostly cause it is in Berlin, where my in-laws are. I would be tickled if they could fetch it for me. #But don't let me stand in your way. #Uncle Sam has first dibs on my $$ this month. #It is a beautiful looking bowl.

I'm hoping Martin or someone can correct my interpretation and perhaps clue us in further on Herr JH Zimmerman, whose name has shown up a few times on mandolins-once on a lovely Puglisi I was following. # Given the Zimmerman name, #and emporium locations, I fear for the worst in the story, but hope for the better. 

Mick

----------


## Fliss

> ...Which translates as:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by  
> 
> ...


Definitely drastic, oui! That looked very tempting too, although I couldn't help but wonder about the seller's low feedback score, and the lack of a photo showing either the label or the action.

Fliss

----------


## vkioulaphides

To tell you the truth, Martin, I had placed the Embergher/Pecoraro on my WatchList, and simply stopped reading when "... beendet" appeared on the abbreviated list withIN the WatchList; I did not bother to look at the "full" eBay page again. I would not want you to think of me as the manic/suspicious type, but I #_still_ suspect that the instrument was withdrawn by "tactical retreat", and that the excuse is, well... just that: an excuse. 

Considering that eBay prohibits (pro forma, at least) direct dealings between parties --for obvious reasons-- and off its auction platform, I suspect that the following happened: the seller (who appears rather uninformed regarding mandolins) started with an opening bid (too low, IMHO), then was contacted with an offer he/she could not refuse (seller ignorance shocked by a sudden fair-market offer), then got scared about losing eBay-face or reputation, and simply cut and ran, money in hand. A better informed Berliner may have simply closed the deal over the phone. I wouldn't blame the buyer...

This, at least, is my speculative reconstruction of the scenario. The point, of course, is moot. I just find it difficult to muster any sense any pity welling up in this old skeptic's heart over an instrument allegedly "destroyed". There is a psychological disconnect: an owner of such pristine items does not simply _sit_ on one and crush it into toothpicks. # 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## vkioulaphides

To add another pleat to the folds of this intrigue, I, too, was wondering about the absence of an image displaying the label. I believe that, indeed, Pecoraro, _did_ have license to use the Embergher label; that said, there have been PLENTY of instruments with "Embergher" labels --quotation marks quite intended-- that were simply replicas, mostly German. The choice of wood, and some details of construction, nagged me towards the German-made. So, perhaps the tactical retreat I spoke of above was not caused by a sudden monetary windfall, but by same doubts entering the seller's limited sphere of knowledge.

So, I'm either manic/suspicious or plain paranoid.

----------


## Bob A

Pcoraro did indeed have license to label mandolins as Emberghers, at least until the end, when some friction seems to have arisen. As I understand it, Sr. P. was the principal luthier in the closing years of the Embergher atelier.

Patience is always the byword on Ebay mandolin-hunting. My experience typically finds me shelling out top dollar in hotly contested auctions, only to have a better example pop up in the following weeks, while I remain penniless.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Wise words, Bob. I can flatter myself with the thought that I _combine_ BOTH attributes you list: patient AND penniless.  

But my skyrocketing mando-royalty-earnings (HA!) give me hope...  

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

This just in from William Petit: 18th Century mandore (at least that is what he calls it). Nice TS bowl.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Martin, have you actually ever _played_ a Herwiga? I am not bidding on the one currently on eBay, but I do have my curiosities... While I am not planning to ever buy a mandolin of the "New German School" on, ah... _de gustibus_ grounds, I obviously have nothing against German instruments _in general_: I have, in fact, spent the better part of my musical life (since 1983) playing a wonderful bass from Mittenwald, ca. 1840's, and have nothing but good words to say for German lutherie. I am just plain ignorant of old, "pre-New-School" German mandolins. Many of them seem vaguely Embergher-esque... There is a multi-multi-multi-disclaimer-laden one on eBay.de right now, as have been several others in the past.

Thanks for any info you may be able to share. Perhaps, even, you could start a thread on the topic. You seem to know all sorts of things the rest of us do not.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi Jim,




> This just in from William Petit: 18th Century mandore (at least that is what he calls it). Nice TS bowl.


An interesting thing, to be sure... but a bit odd to my eye. Perhaps Alex will chime in with some insights. Mr. Petit let me know that it is apparently labeled "Gasparo da Solo"... which would be highly unlikely... 

Eric

----------


## vkioulaphides

Well... there _was_ a *Gaspar(o) da Salo* --being a Mac-head, I can't find the left-to-right Italian accent on a PC keyboard-- luthier, the clan descended obviously from the homonymous town in Italy's far north. In fact, he has a couple of GORGEOUS basses still extant... I have no knowledge, however, of plucky things by the Great Gaspar.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## vkioulaphides

While in no position to actually _recommend_ this, I can at least _point_ you in its direction, as it surely *looks* good. The price seems reasonable, euro-to-dollar converted, shipping included... anyone desirous of a bowlback mandola out there?

(Apologies if this came up before. This IS a long thread...)

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi Victor,

I could have put that better. To be sure, Gaspar[o] da Solo was a real/legit luthier. I just find it unlikely that this was his work... principally since he was pretty much dead by the 18th century (he lived 1540-1609). It could, of course, be another Gasparo da Solo... (or even Han Solo... :-))

I've seen some 18th century instruments with similar decoration (some currently in Russia, in particular). I have no notion of maker, however.

Eric

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Martin, have you actually ever _played_ a Herwiga? I am not bidding on the one currently on eBay, but I do have my curiosities... While I am not planning to ever buy a mandolin of the "New German School" on, ah... _de gustibus_ grounds, I obviously have nothing against German instruments _in general_: I have, in fact, spent the better part of my musical life (since 1983) playing a wonderful bass from Mittenwald, ca. 1840's, and have nothing but good words to say for German lutherie. I am just plain ignorant of old, "pre-New-School" German mandolins. Many of them seem vaguely Embergher-esque...


No, I haven't played one, so my recommendation for the Herwiga Solist is by reputation only. On the other hand, Ian and Barbara have recommended them very highly, and I seem to remember Plamen has played and recommended them, too. But the best person to ask on the Cafe is probably John Craton, who plays a Herwiga Solist as his primary instrument (or at least did in 2004). Here is a link to an old thread on John's on the topic.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I'm hoping Martin or someone can correct my interpretation and perhaps clue us in further on Herr JH Zimmerman, whose name has shown up a few times on mandolins-once on a lovely Puglisi I was following.  Given the Zimmerman name, and emporium locations, I fear for the worst in the story, but hope for the better.


Not sure there is much to fear here: Julius Heinrich Zimmermann (1851-1923) was a German instrumentmaker and music publisher, who started a brass instrument factory in Russia in 1880 (he's pretty much the father of Russian brass instrument making), which he then expanded with additional offices back in Germany. The company grew to become at one stage (not sure precisely when) to become Europe's largest music wholesaler, owning their own factories, selling instruments made by smaller makers, and running a very active music publishing business (which is still in existence today). Think Lyon & Healy.

I find it entirely plausible that Zimmermann would have been a distributor for Salsedo instruments in the German and Russian markets, and that they would have added a distributor's label to say so.

There is a somewhat rudimentary German Wikipedia page on Zimmermann here, and I found further detail when I looked into it a couple of years ago when researching the background of my (very nice!) Zimmermann-labelled waldzither.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

Good morning, all.

Yes, Eric, the absurd incongruity of the "mandore"'s attribution to this atelier was not lost on me, nor were you unclear in what you wrote. Yet, when SO many pieces of the puzzle are out of whack, one begins to wonder: is it the _maker_, the _century_, the _place_, or the _instrument_ itself that is misidentified?

Personal trivium: I have seen, and in fact _played_ a breath-takingly GORGEOUS bass by da Salo (unlabeled, yet authenticated by various authorities), in the possession of my dear old friend, luthier Ignazio "Gino" Biondo. It doesn't get any better than that...

Linguistic/cultural trivium: there is NO "da S*o*lo" that I know of; what there IS is the town of S*a*lo --add your own left-to-right accent on the "o"-- in northern Italy, where fascist hard-liners of the homonymous Repubblica di Salo fought an unspeakably brutal duel with Italian partisans, late in World War II. Thus #Salo, yes, *Solo*, no. The town was made doubly infamous by the scandalous film by Pasolini, 120 Days of Sodom.

Which _still_ leaves the question(s) regarding the instrument unanswered... 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## vkioulaphides

Re: Herwiga: Thank you for your reply, Martin, and for the link to John's instrument. Two things remain questionable, though: one logical, one factual.

If John has Thomastik flat-wound strings on his Herwiga, of course, by cause-and-effect, it would "sound German"; ANY bowlback would "sound German" with such strings on. I attach no negative judgement to this verbal description of sound-- a hazardous undertaking, anyhow.  I mean dark, even, "lute-y". I would be most curious to know what such an instrument would sound like with bronze-wound bottoms, plain steel tops... Italian, perhaps?  

The seller of the (current) Herwiga gives a nut-width of *2.6* cm., FAR narrower than John's *3.0*; the latter would be more reminiscent of "New German School" instruments; the former is, well... quite "Italian", at least Neapolitan (Romans being EVEN narrower). 

IF, therefore, the current Herwiga is as narrow as the seller claims --and I have no reason to doubt his measurement-- and IF the fretboard has at least _some_ radius (as it appears, although I'm not sure I can tell from the pictures), and IF it can be "Italianized" by the appropriate strings, this would all make it quite the "Markneukirchen Embergher"!  

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## vkioulaphides

All this, of course, _theoretically_; more _practically_, this might give us pause...

----------


## Martin Jonas

> My German being pretty feeble, I'm wondering of the info on the Salsedo includes any caveats regarding condition or playability, or restrictions regarding selling/shipping to the US?


Bob,

The description for the Salsedo translates as follows:




> The mandolin is in very well looked-after condition and has been cherished, cared for and inherited down the generations. 
> 
> The labels are very clearly discernible and readable. They can be made out reasonably well in one of the photos.
> 
> Very light wood construction, indicative of very good quality. All in all very well preserved, the dark wood bowl virtually gleaming.
> 
> As can be seen in the photos, there is a shell plectrum with mother-of-pearl [?] and 8 strings. At the tailpiece, there is an ornament with the labelling "ges. geschützt" [German for "trademark"].
> 
> The edge is two-colour -- alternating dark wood and MOP. 
> ...


The shipping description says "Shipping worldwide", but postage rates are to be confirmed with the seller. Rather unusually for a German seller, he does accept Paypal, which should greatly simplify international payment if you want to go for it.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

Well... the Suzuki mandola went for GBP 300-odd; a good buy, for all I could tell. Seriously, folks, the instrument(s) we love can sometimes be SO ridiculously underpriced! Some go for a pittance. This will surely make someone happy. Was it one of us?  I have resisted the temptation to "up-size", as my hobbyist transition (from the bass to the mandolin) is decidedly in *ahem* the _opposite_ direction.  

I go "paws-off" regarding the Salcedo. Have at it, friends! The Herwiga's VERY slanted bridge worries me... does it take THAT much for the instrument to intonate correctly? Also, judging by the arch of the bridge, I cannot corroborate any notion of radius. Ah, if only a hands-on examination were possible...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I go "paws-off" regarding the Salcedo. Have at it, friends! The Herwiga's VERY slanted bridge worries me... does it take THAT much for the instrument to intonate correctly? Also, judging by the arch of the bridge, I cannot corroborate any notion of radius. Ah, if only a hands-on examination were possible...


Are you talking about bridge _position_ or _construction_? The position clearly needs to be reviewed: it's evident that it has spent most of its life a good five to ten millimetres further forward than it is now, and used to be parallel to the cant rather than at its present slant. If you are referring to the slope in bridge height from G down to E, it looks to me like the fretboard has the slope of the Embergher fretboard, but not the radius. I don't think there is any great difference in action between G and E string.

Just from looking at what's out there, it seems to me that Herwiga were straddling the gap between Italian styles and modern German. There's no doubt that some Herwiga models, in particular the distinctive "half-onion" mandolas, were a major evolutionary step towards the modern German bowlback (whether one approves of those or not -- I tend rather not to). Knorr pretty much acknowledges that by still building Herwiga replica mandolas. John Craton's Herwiga also looks to me to be pointing towards modern German. On the other hand, there are Herwigas that are _very_ Embergher-esque. Apart from the current Ebay one, there is also Craig's spectacular liuto cantabile, which is clearly modelled on Embergher's luitos.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

Thank you, Martin. Yes, I meant the _position_; I apologize for the ambiguity of my question. Although I do not "know" this seller, I respect his commentary, which seems both honest and knowledgeable. With that in mind, I wonder, "why the slant?" Hmmm...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## mandocaster

I was briefly excited by this listing. I thought it was a mandola or mandocello until I realized it was leaning up against a miniature chair

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=015

----------


## Martin Jonas

We've mentioned Guriema's "Calace" mandolins before, but I've only just noticed that Lark In The Morning stock them in the US. I wonder whether their, err, _creative_ spelling is out of ignorance or out of an attempt to avoid trademark issues, like the Givson-brand mandolin from India. Of course it may also be honesty: there is very little in the photo that looks like a Calace to me.

Regarding price, yes I know the dollar is rock-bottom, but you could still get an _actual_ Calace for that.



Martin

----------


## Arto

"I wonder whether their, err, creative spelling is out of ignorance or out of an attempt to avoid trademark issues, like the Givson-brand mandolin from India."

I remember when Musikalia was marketing "Gybson model" mandolins. It´s astonishing that their present listing is "Gibson" model. I´d think the guys in Catania would be attacked by an army of lawyers by now.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Greetings, all.

Just finished the spring season at the opera yesterday, with a production of Puccini's _La Fanciulla del West_, the Italian master's ultimate spaghetti-Western. # #The librettist(s), trying to get Italian casts to "sound American", used such hilariously inventive spellings as *Hao wari*. (For ye curious minds: that's "How are you?" # )

I suspect that part of the above is deliberate trademark infringement, the rest, ah... linguistic challenges. # Musikalia is ever the firm to offer "special reducted-size mandolin for womens and small persons", and/or praise their wares as having fine, "nasal sound". Go figure...

Meanwhile, back at the ranch... the Herwiga sold for a pittance, under $100. All told, it was clearly worth more than that. I wish the new owner much joy with it.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Meanwhile, back at the ranch... the Herwiga sold for a pittance, under $100. All told, it was clearly worth more than that. I wish the new owner much joy with it.


As far as I can see, the winning bit was GBP 102, i.e. somewhat over $200. Still a more than reasonable price, but not quite the pittance Victor describes.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

Hmm... I must have been looking at a screen that had not been updated, and listed GBP 37-something. Still, as Martin writes,the _real_ winning bid was modest, by any standard.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Alert for US fans of Italian bowlbacks: Have a look in the Cafe classifies, Ad #28137. #This is described as an "Umberto" mandolin, but the seller is clearly confused between the maker's first name and surname as this is evidently a Ceccherini. #Asking price of $450 is pretty reasonable, I would think.

No financial interest, needless to say, but it strikes me as a good opportunity for our US brethren without having to deal with overseas shipping and weak dollar exchange rates.

Also in the Classifieds: a modest Washburn bowlback for a modest $200 (#27882). #Both bowls are in Nashville -- clearly not just bluegrassers in town...



Martin

----------


## Fliss

> Alert for US fans of Italian bowlbacks: Have a look in the Cafe classifies, Ad #28137. #This is described as an "Umberto" mandolin, but the seller is clearly confused between the maker's first name and surname as this is evidently a Ceccherini. #Asking price of $450 is pretty reasonable, I would think.


Looks as if the seller has read your comments Martin - they've amended the ad.

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

> Looks as if the seller has read your comments Martin - they've amended the ad.


Now, if they can only amend their typos:
"Umberto Ceccherni"

"$450 incl sipping to lower 48 states."

Hmmmm... I would love to have one of those... Ah, someday.

----------


## Bob A

Go for it, Jim, your collection needs a double-soundboard example. BTW, the description has been modified to include Sr. Ceccherini.

That tasty Salsedo went for more than I could sustain at this time, around 600 euros. Just as well, I suppose.

----------


## mandocaster

Can anyone identify this one? It might have been missed since it is called a "roundbelly".

I don't have any particular interest in buying it, but it looks interesting. I don't know if it is "noteworthy".

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=019

----------


## Bob A

While I don't recognise it, I'd say Italian (love the maple) with a replacement tailpiece, needing some work (obviously). I'd put 150-200 into it if I wanted another mandolin, figuring it'd take the same again to get it right. Too bad about the headstock; some folks can't be trusted with tools.

Love the maple. Please, someone here bid on it, so I won't have to.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Nice bowl, but too many condition issues for me. Looks in the photos like there's a label in there -- if you're seriously interested, why not ask the seller what it says?

On the other hand, I could use those tuners -- my single-top Ceccherini needs replacements as the current ones keep seizing up. These look identical.

Martin

----------


## Bob A

Not that interested; the bowl is inspiring, but I have too many "potential" manolins waiting for the luthiers. Winning bidder is "musicalparts" - maybe you should check and see if the tuners are available? Sounds like a chop shop guy.

----------


## Martin Jonas

"Musicalparts" is the purchasing arm of those Vietnamese mandolin collectives -- we'll see that mandolin again in a few weeks with the defects repaired, a complete thick refinish, and with some serious bling added. Pity, really, but as I don't see anybody else putting in the shop time required it's difficult to begrudge it. Better this than if they butcher a Vinaccia (as they have in the past).

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

While I hasten to pre-empt that I do NOT recommend this oddity, the left-handed Moroccan long-necked lutoid player (or something) is, ah... of _some_ note.

Perhaps a whole new Pickguard Art Gallery thread?

----------


## brunello97

> "Musicalparts" is the purchasing arm of those Vietnamese mandolin collectives -- we'll see that mandolin again in a few weeks with the defects repaired, a complete thick refinish, and with some serious bling added. #Pity, really, but as I don't see anybody else putting in the shop time required it's difficult to begrudge it. #Better this than if they butcher a Vinaccia (as they have in the past).
> 
> Martin


Fair enough, Martin, but it is interesting that you note this as a purchasing collective, perhaps with deep enough pockets to outbid the real or aspiring Dave Hyndes of the world operating solo.  I remain foolish enough to begrudge it or besaddened by it as alternatives remain, not the least of which might ask the Brotherhood to stand up through a steady round of communication. 

Perhaps these plasticized Italian bowls find a market somewhere (where?), but I imagine the MusicalParts folks are good capitalists and might be sensitive to certain market pressures even if they appear oblivious to the obvious cultural/aesthetic problems involved.  Granted that Western museums, boutiques and ethnological collections are full of appropriated artifacts from other cultures repackaged for local consumption, but I've never bought the argument that just because 'we' do it that somehow it is okay if it is done to us.  Mostly because I've endured the better part of my adult life being hammered into separating the me from the 'we' viz this range of cultural appropriation.

Could be a Quixote-an task, but I've found myself bidding against the shadowy MusicalParts and writing plaintiff emails (to no avail.) Seeing that maple bowl boomerang back under a cm of gym floor poly will no doubt link Bob and I in a certain melancholy.

Mick

----------


## Bob A

It's a sad thing to realise that one can't rescue all the deserving mandolins. But when I hit the lottery, Ima hire myself a luthier and do my part.

Howzabout that pictorial guard? Vaguely Rousseau-like, if I'm thinking of the right guy. Also reminds me of a few of my Hawaiian shirts, with the Friendly Natives Cavorting theme.

----------


## girldingo

Hi all,

Any string recommendations for the Ceccherini bowlback? Yes, I've purchased the one in the classifieds; I've always wanted an old italian! I've been told that the mandolin has been wearing D'addario lights for about a year, so, I'm sure it's ready for a change.

Ilene

----------


## vkioulaphides

CONGRATULATIONS! Way to go, Ilene! I once owned a Ceccherini, and loved it dearly; I only parted with it as I "transitioned" to a modern Calace, and could only spend my (already minimal) mando-time on one instrument.

As for strings: start with GHS bronze-wound extra-lights; they are readily available, and cost little. Just Strings is as good an outlet as you'll ever find. If a bit more ambitious, I heartily recommend Lenzner/Fisoma strings, which are what I use myself.

I wish you much joy with your new "baby".

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

Of all the bowlbacks I've played, the Ceccherinis have the most distinctive sound. I really enjoy them, and I'm sure you will as well.

I have Lenzners on mine.

----------


## girldingo

Thank you! I'm very excitedly awaiting the arrival of my italian "friend" Umberto! Regarding the strings - I've been using Lenzner consorts on my Lyon & Healy C and I really like them. Should I get the consorts or the lighter gauge for the Umberto C? 

It's interesting that one of my top ten favorite films is "Umberto D" by DeSica.

Ciao,
Ilene

----------


## vkioulaphides

The real distinction, Ilene, is not so much "lightness", as the fact the the "Consort" set has flat-wound A-strings, not plain steel. Much of the answer rests with taste, and thus cannot be argued. I prefer the Consort set, finding it optimal for the classical repertoire --IMHO-- while I also love the plain-A Lenzners for their more "folkie" sound. But do not worry that the Consort set would ever be "too heavy", less yet that these strings, wound A's and all, would cause any damage; they are designed _specifically_ with such instruments as yours in mind.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## girldingo

Victor,

Thank you so much for the clarity of your explanation regarding the distinction between the Lenzner strings.

Regards,
Ilene

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## Fliss

Ilene, congratulations on your purchase! Ceccherinis are really fine, lovely instruments and with the double top it should be loud too. 

Fliss

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## trebleclef528

Only 10 hours to go and still no bids on <a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-Raffaele-Calace-1969_W0QQitemZ250239879543QQihZ015QQcategoryZ10179  QQssPageNameZW
DVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this fluted Calace</a> Seller with no history and registered for a couple of years... could be dodgy? I asked for shipping costs and got no reply.

----------


## mandocaster

I know I am an infrequent poster...

I love this thread, but it has gotten too unwieldy. I suggest breaking it up every 7-10 pages. Bowlbacks of note part II etc.

That way in the future if someone uses the search function to find info on a tasty Maurer on ebay like http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=007
they won't have to wade through 160 someodd pages. It is a tasty Maurer, though - made by Larson Bros, I think. If I had money right now I would buy it

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## Jim Garber

Over-the-top Ferrari

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## Jim Garber

Rather beat-looking Bowlback by Monzino in Uruguay. I wonder what the story is with all these interesting mandolins appearing in Uruguay.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Thank you! I'm very excitedly awaiting the arrival of my italian "friend" Umberto! Regarding the strings - I've been using Lenzner consorts on my Lyon & Healy C and I really like them. Should I get the consorts or the lighter gauge for the Umberto C?


Congratulations, Ilene! If you've followed this thread you'll know that I'm a big fan of Ceccherini. Like Bob, I have two of them (used to have three), and also like Bob I find that they have a tonality all of their own. You'll adore the shimmering trebles when you tremolo high on the E-string!

Gauge-wise, Lenzer Consort will be fine. I personally went for Lenzners with the plain A string, simply because the wound A is a bit darker and therefore loses some of that shimmering tone quality that I mentioned above. But, the wound A is easier to intonate properly with the original straight metal saddle of the Ceccherini.

Regarding intonation, I had to move the nut on one of mine by a couple of millimetres to correct the intonation -- maybe check out this thread for details.

Have fun and let us know what you think!

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> I love this thread, but it has gotten too unwieldy. I suggest breaking it up every 7-10 pages. Bowlbacks of note part II etc.


I understand your concern, but there is a time-limit on abandoned threads: we lost one that way already and this is one of our home threads, so I would say, better to leave well-enough alone.

----------


## Acquavella

Mandocaster, 

May I suggest that you click on the page number instead on the thread itself. This will take you to the last entry. It would be good to not loose all the hard work everyone has logged thus far.

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## mandocaster

> Mandocaster, 
> 
> May I suggest that you click on the page number instead on the thread itself. This will take you to the last entry. It would be good to not loose all the hard work everyone has logged thus far.


I may not be doing something right. When I do a search, e.g. Maurer,it just comes up with the thread with none of the pages specified.

----------


## Martin Jonas

The search function on the Cafe is indeed a bit peculiar, and will only give you the entire thread. If you want to search within the thread, the best way to do that is to click "Print this topic" just above the first post on the page. This will open the entire thread in one giant page, and you can then search within in using your browser's search function. Loads pretty fast, too, as it leaves out all extraneous detail and just gives the text of the post.

Martin

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## mandocaster

great suggestion

please disregard my suggestion to break up the thread

----------


## Schlegel

Anyone want a Puglisi, 1912? It appears somewhat worn with some bits of damage that need repair,but doesn't seem too bad off. Rather plain appearance, so it might not get very expensive, either. It's about $5 at the moment. Ebay item 170213676664. It's in Germany, so cash or bank transfer only. (Why don't Germans like paypal?)

----------


## Bob A

They get free bank transfers.

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## Jim Garber

> Anyone want a Puglisi, 1912? It appears somewhat worn with some bits of damage that need repair,but doesn't seem too bad off. Rather plain appearance, so it might not get very expensive, either. It's about $5 at the moment. Ebay item 170213676664. It's in Germany, so cash or bank transfer only. (Why don't Germans like paypal?)


Actually, the Puglisi mandolin is about 5 euros which is closer to $9. It has 8 days to go anyway so will prob meet retail value for one in that condition. Of the non-Neapolitan mandolins of that era, Puglisi was prob the most respected. It looks decent, nothing special but prob a nice mandolin. It looks like the tuners are coming loose from the headstock which may or may not indicate some problem with the headstock.

----------


## Jim Garber

<a href="http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/120A-Fabricatore-Gennaro-Mandolino-italiano-Napoli_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ28200QQihZ01
9QQitemZ290222624768" target="_blank">1810 mandolin by Gennaro Fabricatore</a> at a live eBay auction in Rome. There is also a <a href="http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/113A-Astuccio-per-mandolino-Italia-meta-del-XVII-sec_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ28200QQihZ
019QQitemZ290222624811" target="_blank">mandolin case</a> that is estimated for the same price 2000  

I asked them for more photos. Will report back.

----------


## girldingo

So pretty! C'est belle.....come en italiano?

Ilene

----------


## guitharsis

That is pretty. Congrats on your Ceccherini girldingo!
I love mine. It is presently strung with Calace strings, the preferred classical strings of Bernunzio's who did some work on it. It sounds great.

----------


## Jim Garber

I got some pics of the Fabricatore. It looks like it needs serious restoration work. I think there is some sinkage on the top and the rosette looks a little funky -- maybe some amateur replacement inlays? I am only interested academically and am not bidding BTW. 

I will now post the pics I received.

----------


## Jim Garber

Side view

----------


## Jim Garber

Headstock and fretboard

----------


## Jim Garber

Side view of peghead

----------


## Jim Garber

Soundhole rosette close-up. Looks like the mastic is on its last legs and some of the pearl looks odd.

I wish I could see the label better. I looked at the pics of Eric's Fabricatore -- I wonder about the authenticity of this one.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Jim,

This Mandolino Napolitano is (imho) NOT made by GENNARO Fabricatore. 

The mandolino Napolitano shown here, and on auction via eBay, has a much earlier than 1810 appearance. Also this one has had many "repairs" by unskilled 'handymen' in its past. The originality of the sound table is very questionable as is the scratchplate. The inlay and bridge (the bridge is a nice and original example for these mandolin kinds) can have been easily taken out of/from the original table and placed in and on this one. #Unfortunately it is not very representative for the fine work of the Neapolitan Luthiers anymore. And certainly not for the work of Gennaro Fabricatore whose number of mandolins can be counted on one hand... 


Best, 

Alex

PS. here is a Gennaro Fabricatore 1806 label, similar to the one stuck in the Mandolino Napolitano, 
found in one of his guitars.

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks, Alex... I had a feeling that this one was seriously messed with, esp after seeing pics of Eric's gloriously restored mandolin.

----------


## brunello97

Fascinating sleuthery, Alex. Can you elaborate? (Particularly on the state of the table, comparisons/contrasts etc. etc.)

thanks!

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

1951 Calace, with long crack in top, one hour to go. Possibly a bit overpriced at its current high bid of 855 Euro -- how were the 1950s Calaces?

Today's bizarre corner here: not sure whether this counts as a bowlback, a flatback or an electric -- definitely folk art, though. Made in 1946, when parts of all kind would have been extremely hard to come by in Germany, with a one-piece carved shallow bowl back/sides and an extremely improvised pickup.

Martin

----------


## BlueMountain

This Washburn has one of the loveliest engraved fretboards and headstocks I've ever seen on a mandolin. Very graceful and well-conceived. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=025

----------


## BlueMountain

Larger photo?

----------


## BlueMountain

Headstock

----------


## Jim Garber

> Today's bizarre corner here: not sure whether this counts as a bowlback, a flatback or an electric -- definitely folk art, though. Made in 1946, when parts of all kind would have been extremely hard to come by in Germany, with a one-piece carved shallow bowl back/sides and an extremely improvised pickup.


Franken-embergh-stein. So someone found an old Embergher that was a real wallhanger and snapped off the neck and bolted it onto an oblong salad bowl. I love it!!

----------


## brunello97

Wow. 'Pimp My Mando' for sure. 

Mick

----------


## man dough nollij

I guess that answeres the eternal question: "What do you get when you breed a taterbug and a thermostat?".

----------


## Jim Garber

> This Washburn has one of the loveliest engraved fretboards and headstocks I've ever seen on a mandolin. Very graceful and well-conceived. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=025


Model 80 from the 1890s The only fancier mandolin in the line at the time was a model 85 with fluted ribs.

----------


## brunello97

The model 80 Washburn appears to have the short-lived diagonal bowl bracing. I guess they didn't stick with it very long, but I like the way it looks. And is that burled veneer on the neck and headstock? If so, it isn't too often that one sees that on US mandolins. Or is that a painted metal tuner coverplate?  The top appears to have a number of battle-scars, but all in all a very nice looking bowl.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

My favorite is the waterfowl (heron?) at the end of the fretboard (this from another example).

----------


## Bob A

I seem to recall seeing a guitar neck with leafy, vinuous inlay on an American parlor guitar from around the turn of the century. It's been more than a decade, maybe two, so the mental image is not clear, but I was immediately reminded of it when I saw this fretboard.

More to the point, why has the instrument received 0 bids so far? SOMEone here must need it.

----------


## Jim Garber

I am pretty sure that L&H also made a banjo with similar inlays.

----------


## mandocaster

I seem to remember that L&H, Washburn, and American Conservatory all came out of the same factory, but I might be hallucinating again.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I seem to remember that L&H, Washburn, and American Conservatory all came out of the same factory, but I might be hallucinating again.


Sorry, Mitch... most folks here are aware of the connection of those brands. In any case, here is one similar in inlay style, fom the L&H factory.

----------


## mandocaster

> Originally Posted by  (mandocaster @ April 29 2008, 00:30)
> 
> I seem to remember that L&H, Washburn, and American Conservatory all came out of the same factory, but I might be hallucinating again.
> 
> 
> Sorry, Mitch... most folks here are aware of the connection of those brands. In any case, here is one similar in inlay style, fom the L&H factory.


Nothing sadder than yesterday's news

----------


## Jim Garber

> Nothing sadder than yesterday's news


Nah... I live for yeste4rday's news -- you should see my studio -- old crumbling catalogs and sheet music...

Anyway...In actuallity, the banjo I had seen with those inlays was labelled Washburn anyway, but just to be sure I said L&H to cover myself. L&H was the parent company, Washburn, AmCon etc were the brands.

----------


## BlueMountain

The ad says it needs a neck reset to get the action down. Not a D-I-Y endeavor for most of us. To me that banjo neck is cool, but crowded and not very effective. The mandolin is perfectly graceful. Thanks for the closeup, Jim.

----------


## mandocaster

This really floats my boat

<a href="http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/10-American-Mandolin-C-F-Martin-Company-Nazareth_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ28221QQihZ012Q
QitemZ220228119300QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW#la-image-3" target="_blank">http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/10-Amer....image-3</a>

----------


## mandocaster

For some reason I can't get the link to work. It's a Martin style 5
Ebay item # 220228119300

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is a better link to that Martin. There's another nice mando in that auction, too, this Lyon & Healy. Surely the starting bid of $900 is far too low. On the other hand, this looks like no other Gibson I've ever seen and I wonder about its autheticity (but that's one for the Vintage Instruments forum, really).

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> On the other hand, this looks like no other Gibson I've ever seen and I wonder about its autheticity (but that's one for the Vintage Instruments forum, really).


It is one of those wide-body Gibsons from that period. They expanded the size of their archtops and figured they would do the same for the mandolin -- not too successful but it is a Gibson.

----------


## brunello97

The L+H went for $1750 in the auction, which still must seem like a very attractive price for our Euro friends. #(~1100e) #I guess with the buyer's vigorish and shipping it adds up a bit. #It wasn't the cleanest looking A, and looked like a replacement tailpiece. #But I imagine we'll see the prices on these continue to escalate.


Wait a minute.....I'm confusing things here: there were three (3) L+H archtops on my radar screen, two apparently out of ebay 'live auctions'. #The B that Martin posted looks to be in much better shape than the A I was referring to above:

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws....42&rd=1

Just the same, this L+H A died on the vine with a starting price of $3900:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=016

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

The Martin --beautiful as it is-- is buried beneath a heap of _most_ unappetizing legalese; one is left with a bit of nostalgia for the Old Days at eBay, when the process was crude, but intuitive... # 

Somewhat akin, a German seller a while back, apparently TERRIFIED of potentially negative feedback, wrote the most remarkably negative description one could have ever imagined for the mandolin she was selling. She closed with a grumpy "If you don't like it, don't bid on it, I don't care to hear from people like you." In order, perhaps, Dr. Freud, with some help for childhood trauma?

Something in all this does not *ahem* _tune in_ correctly with my millennially mercantile mentality...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

> The Martin --beautiful as it is-- is buried beneath a heap of _most_ unappetizing legalese; one is left with a bit of nostalgia for the Old Days at eBay, when the process was crude, but intuitive...


Skinner is a high end auction house. That caveat is prob composed by their legal dept and since this is a live auction with representation on eBay, they use it here as well.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Wait a minute.....I'm confusing things here: there were three (3) L+H archtops on my radar screen, two apparently out of ebay 'live auctions'. The B that Martin posted looks to be in much better shape than the A I was referring to above:
> 
> http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws....42&rd=1


Do you know more about the condition of that L&H A? I only saw it after it was over but that is a very good price unless it is a basket case.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Thanks, Jim, that explains it. I hope they are not also of the Skin-the-Cat-(er) sort of business.

----------


## brunello97

I really do like Martin's take on the Michelangelo headstock. Maybe it is the rounded over edges? They use the same detail on their non-Mannerist versions as well. It is a small thing but gives a sense of fullness to the profile. 

I've got a funny vibe viz the top on this one. Would love to have seen a proper side-on view. A beautiful instrument, nonetheless.

Mick

----------


## TomTyrrell

> The Martin --beautiful as it is-- is buried beneath a heap of _most_ unappetizing legalese; one is left with a bit of nostalgia for the Old Days at eBay, when the process was crude, but intuitive... #???


The Skinner house is well known and respected. The legalese is basically standard boiler plate for an auction in Massachusetts. That's how long it takes a lawyer to say "As Is, Where Is"

You might be surprised how many people buy stuff at an auction, try to resell for a big profit and then think they should be able to get their money back from the auctioneer if that big profit doesn't happen.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Makes sense. I dealt with countless contracts in my decade-plus in _concert_ management --an entirely different business, of course-- and soon found out that, for every 3-page _contract_, there is a *33*-page _rider_; therein contained (albeit implicitly) a chronicle of all the horror stories, what artists had suffered in previous engagements, etc. My own (former) employer's contracts got more and more stringent and strident as time went by... With that in mind, Skinner's prudence is certainly justified. Thank you for the "contextual information".

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I seem to remember that L&H, Washburn, and American Conservatory all came out of the same factory, but I might be hallucinating again.


Picking up on that topic, there's a relevant item in the classifieds (#28216): an original L&H/Washburn shipping crate. An interesting curiosity, but I can't quite see the collectability for at $500 asking price. You can get a fairly reasonable Washburn mandolin for that sort of money!

Also in the classifieds: a 1998 Knorr "La Ariosa" (#28248), for those keen on the modern German bowlback sound.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

As a corollary to the Style 5 Martin up for auction, here is what looks like a weatherworn Model 0 (?) with a dreamy price, Martin escalation notwithstanding. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=005

Mick

----------


## trebleclef528

This #<a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-Raffaele-Calace-1969_W0QQitemZ250243873022QQihZ015QQcategoryZ10179  QQssPageNameZW
DVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Fluted Calace</a> was supposedly sold by the seller on 25th April under item number 250239879543, same mandolin same details... dodgy or what, especially the sellers credit rating of -1

----------


## brunello97

"Una truffa", so the (-1) states. A 'fraud' or a 'cheat' in the mother tongue.  Not the preferred single description of your ebay commerce experience.

Mick

----------


## trebleclef528

Here is a very nice restoration of a Mandore de Gaspare Vimercati, Milan c.1770 (click on the "restorations" tab on the web page)... also a nice Embergher restoration

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here is a very nice restoration of a Mandore de Gaspare Vimercati, Milan c.1770 (click on the "restorations" tab on the web page)... also a nice Embergher restoration


Direct link to Vimercati restoration

Direct link to Embergher restoration

That Embergher had a seriously warped top. Yikes!

----------


## Bob A

Sounds like the French PC Police have joined forces with the Academie folks to cut the economic throats of the artisan classes. I understand that the next step is to ban the use of instruments that are not made by university grads. 

Might be an opportunity to pick up a cheap Strad.

----------


## vkioulaphides

I must say that the warped Embergher is THE most painful sight I have seen lately...

----------


## Jim Garber

> I must say that the warped Embergher is THE most painful sight I have seen lately...


Nah... take a look at the old beauty discussed on this thread.

----------


## brunello97

> Originally Posted by  (vkioulaphides @ May 05 2008, 12:44)
> 
> I must say that the warped Embergher is THE most painful sight I have seen lately... #
> 
> 
> Nah... take a look at the old beauty discussed on this thread.


Well, it doesn't appear to have any top sinkage.....


Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is yet another name to add to the _long_ list of makers claiming to be pupils of Vinaccia: Gennaro & Gaetano Albertazzi.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

I saw this, Martin, and tossed in a ringer on the Albertazzi,  Fabulous names, maple bowl and to my eye nice MOP design around the soundhole. Seems pretty modest but a pleasant looking bowl nonetheless.  

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> I saw this, Martin, and tossed in a ringer on the Albertazzi,  Fabulous names, maple bowl and to my eye nice MOP design around the soundhole. Seems pretty modest but a pleasant looking bowl nonetheless.


Not to mention a couple of Roman-style plectra.

----------


## Fliss

If anyone's looking for a De Meglio, I've spotted this one on ebay, still on a reasonable price with just under 4 hours to go. The condition looks pretty good, but there's no way to tell from the photos what the action is like.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws....&ih=022 

Fliss

----------


## brunello97

This is kind of grim. The Albertazzi went for ~103L.  The seller told me shipping to the US would be ~100L. Yikes. This remains baffling (and frustrating) to me. Kind of like a updated version of the Stamp Act. I don't really like tea but feel ready for a little Tea Party of sorts.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Mick:
I assume you are saying that you would have bid for the mandolin at that price if the shipping charges were lower? (I assume that you have not changed your eBay moniker and that you did not win this auction).

I have the same problem with getting my Embergher back from the UK. Luckily timing was right and my brother-in-law was going over to London on biz and was willing to take a little ride to the 'burbs to pick it up for me. 

It is ridiculous how expensive it is to ship to the US from the UK.

----------


## brunello97

Jim, #I kind of liked the looks of the Albertazzi and had put in a ringer's bid and then asked the seller about the shipping costs. #I wrote back to him to confirm and/or ask for other options, but received no reply. # #I watched it go by. # We keep beating this horse here, but it never ceases to surprise me, mostly because one sees such a wide range of shipping costs from the UK, from the (sometimes) reasonable to the seemingly outrageous. # #I recently saw a listing from Belgium with shipping stated to the US for ~1/2 of what one sometimes sees from the UK. #A soft dollar doesn't explain it. # Maybe more competition over on the continent? #Still, how many planes go between NYC and London every day?

BTW next on my list is to upgrade the Italian bowl contribution to my arsenale. #Still a few months out (and a little herd thinning) on this now that 4/15 has come and gone. #But I am keeping my eye out. #I do like the looks of Vinaccia e dei suoi studenti. # I learned a bit from the recent Howe mandola flub.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

THanks Scott for the reminder of the anniversary of Sr. Embergher's passing, the creator of many Bowlbacks of Note.

----------


## Jim Garber

Combining two of my favorite things: chocolate and mandolin. Too bad the price is way beyond my passion -- I could almost buy a nice bowlback for that money. I think this one has a fluted back tho.

----------


## BlueMountain

Luigi Dorigo? 1891?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....atching

Very interesting string trees pulling up from under the top to hold down the strings. Lots of nice things about this mandolin.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Other than the painful fact that the bridge is SCREWED onto the top.

----------


## brunello97

> Combining two of my favorite things: chocolate and mandolin. Too bad the price is way beyond my passion -- I could almost buy a nice bowlback for that money. I think this one has a fluted back tho.


What a great alternative Easter basket confection. Note the dimension: 8" x 3"! Somewhere, some pastry shop might still be selling these. A pity about the price though, as this could certainly be put back into production. A ready market, no doubt, here at the MC.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Hey Mick:
Want to go into the mando-confectionery biz? Maybe we could buy this mould and start something. Now we need to also find a Loar mould as well to make it worthwhile.

Wait! I found a cheaper one: 


Well still not cheap enough.

----------


## Neil Gladd

I already have TWO mandolin chocolate molds (and a mandolin ice cream mold from the 19th century). I also bought a book on working with chocolate and have made several attempts, but the neck always breaks off when taking it out of the mold. Molding chocolate is definately an art! I'll take some pictures when I get home tonight.

----------


## Jim Garber

Maybe you need some of that fine Belgian chocolate (Ralf?) -- I hear that it makes stronger necks...

or maybe you need to reinforce it with CF (chocolate fiber).

----------


## TomTyrrell

Does anyone happen to know what page of this thread this Bohmann was discussed? Or maybe about when?

----------


## brunello97

> I already have TWO mandolin chocolate molds (and a mandolin ice cream mold from the 19th century). I also bought a book on working with chocolate and have made several attempts, but the neck always breaks off when taking it out of the mold. Molding chocolate is definately an art! I'll take some pictures when I get home tonight.


Neil, if you get a chance to post a few pictures of these molds, I would love to see them. Thanks!

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Does anyone happen to know what page of this thread this Bohmann was discussed? Or maybe about when?


I did a quick search on the print version and I see that some frequent poster noted it on 8/7/2005. I think it was originally on eBay before it ended up at Gryphon.

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Neil, if you get a chance to post a few pictures of these molds, I would love to see them. Thanks!


Better late than never. I bought the first (back left) at a local antique show. I was buying my first mandobabe postcards from one dealer and she was helping me look. Suddenly she said, "Hey, I have a mandolin chocolate mold!", and produced it from a box under the table. I gave her my card in case anything else turned up, and she called me a few days later to say that she also had a mandolin ice cream mold (front. It seems to be dated 1888.) The last mold (right back) is from a Belgian eBay dealer. When I won it I told her that now I needed some Belgian chocolate to put in it, and she put a piece in the package!

----------


## Neil Gladd

The inside view. Sorry for the not great photos, but my digital camera is ALSO an antique (1995).

----------


## Woody Turner

Slight image sharpening.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Just a quick cross-link to the picture I've posted over in the Visual Arts thread, found on a croissant bag on my holiday in the South of France last week.



Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

I'm not sure I'll ever understand Ebay. This Loveri has already attracted five bids with more than four days to go, the highest at 77.10 Pounds ($155), never mind the slight problem that its neck is snapped clean off! I quite like this style of Loveri, but considering that we recently had a Ceccherini in decent(-ish) condition going for about the same, something isn't right here.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

My guess is that it is going to Vietnam via Taiwan.

----------


## Fliss

To go with the chocolate and croissants, how about some cherry wine? A friend brought this back for me from a holiday in Croatia.

Fliss

----------


## guitharsis

Just curious. How were the vintage Italian bowlbacks constructed i.e. deMeglio, Stridente, Puglisi, Ceccherini, Embergher, Calace, Vinaccia?

----------


## Bob A

Heat wood, metal, glue until melted. 
Pour into mold, remove when cool.

----------


## brunello97

> Just curious. #How were the vintage Italian bowlbacks constructed i.e. deMeglio, Stridente, Puglisi, Ceccherini, Embergher, Calace, Vinaccia?


Sean Chase (of Eastman mandolins) posted this video from a visit to their factory which shows a Chinese fella working on a bowlback. #He is holding the formwork on his lap, whereas I've seen some old photos of Italian shops where the bowl-mo(u)lds are fastened to the work-stations/benches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CBG2gt2byA 

Mick

----------


## guitharsis

Thanks. John Bernunzio http://www.bernunzio.com was asking the question about my Stridente when I brought it in for a string change. Just wondering if they were made in shops by others or if the individuals made them themselves. The vast amount of deMeglios would indicate small shops at least. Don't know about the others.

----------


## Jim Garber

I think that all the ones you mentioned were at the very least small shops, not individual luthiers. In fact I believe that even the violin makers like Stradivari worked that way with assistants/students helping out in the production. I thinkl most successful luthiers had a few people working for him/her.

There is a Japanese site with photos of the current Calace workshop. There is also a second page.

Vinaccia certainly must have had a similar situation esp consideringf how many makers have mentioned that they were students thereof on their labels.

Jim

----------


## guitharsis

Thanks, Jim. Interesting stuff. The Eastman video was great too, Mick. John Bernunzio did have a chance to play some bowlbacks when he was at the Eastman factory in China. He was very impressed with them.

----------


## brunello97

Jim, I hadn't seen those pictures of the Calace shop before. Those are pretty great. (The neck/headstock glue + clamp joint!)

Lots of details to pour over, but I couldn't help but notice the photo with both a devotional image of JC right next to a slew of girly pinups. (Kind of like my barber: pictures of the pope right next to the gentlemanly magazine section.)

The old bowl mo(u)lds/forms appear to have seen a lot of good use.  Looks like those folks had a great visit there.

Mick

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Just curious. How were the vintage Italian bowlbacks constructed i.e. deMeglio, Stridente, Puglisi, Ceccherini, Embergher, Calace, Vinaccia?


Not vintage, Italian, or traditional, but here are my pictures of Seiffert's shop again.

----------


## Jim Garber

The thing that gets me about constructing a bowled instrument is the geometry needed to go from flat to bowled. It looks like the Seiffert shop uses completely symmetrical ribs whereas the Italian makers have to have a different patterns for their ribs in order to achieve that shape of the bowl, narrowing toward the neck join.

I guess it is the same wonder I feel when I see a truly expertly made southwestern pot with a perfectly executed geometric pattern.

----------


## guitharsis

Thanks! The Seiffert pics were impressive.

Like Jim, I'm filled with wonder when see pics and videos of the makers and their methods.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is another one of those old-style French (we think) bowls constructed for low tension mixed stringing. This one has been converted to geared tuners from the original friction tuners at some stage (you can see the plugged holes for the friction tuners in the headstock photo), and I'd be worried about structural damage cause by use of inappropriate steel strings.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Ancienne-MANDOLINE-FRATRES-CALACE-NEAPOLI-datee-1901_W0QQitemZ270239673410QQihZ017QQcatego

ryZ104485QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD4VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_t  rksidZp1638Q2em124" target="_blank">1901 Maple-bowled Calace</a>.

----------


## Jim Garber

My friend in Roma pointed me to this extensive listing of Italian luthiers on the FMI site.

----------


## Bob A

For those intrepid traveller seeking Neapolitqan treasures, be advised that the city of Napoli has been in the midst of a garbage strike since January, with heaps of rotting trash sitting in piles thruout the city. Might be worth avoiding until the situation is resolved.

(I understand that the local organs of Organised Crime are deeply involved in the situation. Apparently they control the trash industry and have been importing toxic waste from all over Italy and burying it wherever they please; it has proven less than pleasing to the citizenry, who understandably object to their home;and being turned into a toxic waste dump. Perhaps more than anyone wants to know about this, but it seems to me a warning to travellers might be in order).

----------


## vkioulaphides

Italian composer/friend Davide Zannoni --whose music I recommend warmly!-- reminded me of the perennial saying among his countrymen: to rule Italy is not impossible; only pointless.  

Commander-in-chief Berlusconi, recently commencing his third term, is best known for shortening statutes of limitation, thereby getting a step ahead of prosecutors dogging him since his LAST term...

But, oh, the trash-mongers of Napoli, he'll show THEM who's the boss. HA!

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is yet another Ceccherini on Ebay UK. Looks to be in good condition. Very similar to mine. The date of 1891 is spurious, of course -- the seller has misread the reference to the 1881 exhibition on the label and has added an arbitrary 10 years to it.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

With the candid disclaimer that I am a TOTAL ignoramus of historical mandolins, and their various and sundry reincarnations, I point <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MUSEUM-Italian-Lion-Head-Mandolin-by-Rocca-Enrico-1896_W0QQitemZ370056598738QQihZ024QQcate
goryZ359QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?" target="_blank">this</a> out for the better informed to judge. 

Again, this is NOT a recommendation or endorsement, but simply a heads up. Just 4 hours to go, and VERY little money on the table so far...

----------


## Bob A

Pretty good deal for $305, even with a 50% premium for shipping. I was sore tempted, but vestiges of sanity along with fiscal trainwreck from prior excesses permitted me to pass.

----------


## Martin Jonas

No deal on that Brescian: the reserve wasn't reached. I would like that a lot, but am reluctant to deal with shipping and possible customs snare-ups from Uruguay -- besides, who knows how high he put that reserve.

Martin

----------


## trebleclef528

Brescian - The reserve was $950 and shipping to the UK was quoted at $174

----------


## vkioulaphides

Brescian, eh? So... THAT's what it was!  Oh, well... I was short a few _lire Bresciane_, anyway.

----------


## etbarbaric

Interestingly, this mandolin seems to have once had more pegs than it does now. #An upper peg hole has definitely been filled in... 

Eric

----------


## Arto

It should have - I don´t think 3-string mandolins exist. If it originally had 4 pegs, it would be a Brescian (same as Cremonese?).

----------


## Martin Jonas

Arto: it has only three pegs at the moment, but there is an empty hole between the bottom peg and the nut, plus the filled-in upper peg hole between the top peg and the carved head mentioned by Eric. So, either a five-string originally, or the peg hole from the top was moved to the bottom.

Martin

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi Arto,

Sorry for not being clearer. It seems this one originally had at least one additional peg in addition to the four that it could currently hold (one is missing). I see:
- Four peg holes (three with pegs)
- One filled in peg hole up higher on the peghead

The upper (filled-in) peg hole almost certainly held a peg at some point, as the peghead is cracked at that point as well. Unfortunately the photos don't show the whole peghead or bridge holes. It would be interesting to see the lower back of the peghead as well.

It does look like a Brescian mandolin in its current incarnation, but I wonder if the maker (or a later repairer) swiped the lovely carved peghead from another instrument... one that originally had more pegs. The other possibility would be a converted Lombardian mandolin... but from the available photos, I don't see room for a sixth peg.

Best,

Eric

----------


## vkioulaphides

By way of (somewhat) related anecdote: for most candidates, the arguably most TERRIFYING moment of a doctorate in music are the much dreaded oral exams, where one may be asked ANYthing. It's a bit like standing naked before a group of fully-clothed others: they have written up the questions, looked up the answers in detail, you don't have ANY idea of what on earth they might ask.

Committee members, in turn, can be either perfectly reasonable, or downright asinine. A member of the *ahem* _latter_ persuasion, knowing that I am a performer (on a modern instrument) and composer (of obviously modern music, and thus presumed ignorant of early music, period instruments, and the like) hurled at me the question, "WHEN was the _three_-string violin standardized?"

"Why, Sir", I replied without missing a beat, "CERTAINLY before the _four_-string one!" The other committee members burst out in earth-shaking laughter, the gentleman who had asked the question smirked with visible dismay; the chairman moved right along to the _next_ question --about Scarlatti's keyboard Sonatas, thank goodness!-- and I moved right along with answering _that_ one fully and correctly.

In other words, I can proudly claim that I have a fully accredited, highest academic degree in... _ignorance_!

----------


## Bob A

Now, Victor, the academic method is to learn more and more about less and less, until finally one knows all there is to know about nothing at all. At that point, having eaten your tail and continued northward until you disappear with a pop into the ineffable, you reach that most rarified state of all . . .tenure.

----------


## Arto

"Now, Victor, the academic method is to learn more and more about less and less, until finally one knows all there is to know about nothing at all."

Hey thanks Bob! I never understood that the Western academic study aims at the same result than Zen Buddhism: The Mind that is Empty and Wonderful.

 Arto

----------


## vkioulaphides

Realization of the above steered me elsewhere, Bob, as you know. Fortunately, I escaped the Ultimate Ignominy, that attached to the status of _academic COMPOSER_! # 

Back to whatEVER-number-of-strings mandolins.




> "The Mind that is Empty and Wonderful."


Arto... *ahem*... I believe that Bob's _proctological_ metaphor held less _wonder_ than you, perhaps, ascribe to it.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Since, out of sheer curiosity, I had placed the Brescian on my Watch List at eBay, I just received notice that it has been relisted, magnanimously, for a pittance of *$3,500* in the Buy It Now option. # 

Economic theory in reverse: if you _fail_ to sell something with a reserve of $950, attracting instead $350-or-so worth of buyer interest, raise the _ceiling_ to $3,500; this way, you will _surely_ sell at a satisfactory price. Hmmm... perhaps this works in Uruguay.

Cheers,

Victor


P.S. From the _buyer's_ standpoint, of course, this may not be a bad thing altogether: if there is now NO reserve at all, one of the Cafe's denizens may wish to snap this up for, oh... $400-500.

----------


## Bob A

I've seen this sort of marketing ploy work, amazingly enough. I suppose the idea is that if you undervalue something, it'll be ignored as junk, but if you put a hefty tag on it, it will seem more desireable.

Still, I was never able to tell whether the object in question was a 4-string with bushed pegholes or a 6 string without enough room for the 6th peg; photos were too vague. And I'm having little luck with current instruments out for repair. So fortunately I'm forced to ignore this one.

Anyway, the concept of logic in economic theory has been pretty much ruled out, as I understand it. Apparently someone got a Nobel for suggesting that you can't go broke by underestimating the stupidity of the purchasing class. Who knew?

----------


## vkioulaphides

You are right, as usual, Bob. Come to think of it a bit better, I'm going to scare up that 3 1/2 grand presto, prestissimo, and mail the check to Uruguay A.S.A.P.  

Let us see... I am, of course, always an advocate for the _buyers_ among mando-friends, and often pour scorn (perhaps unjustified) on many a _seller's_ ploy. I disclaim any impartiality in this matter.

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi guys,

How about a link to the relisting? I have to try to out-bid Victor... now that we know its *really* worth $3,500.... at least!!!

(watch for dripping sarcasm...)

Thanks,

Eric

ps - I'm with you Bob... the peghead is thus far a bit of a mystery...

----------


## vkioulaphides

Believe it or not... too late! It was just snapped up, by Best Offer, at $750.

By way of a candid, economic _post mortem_: this proves both Bob AND myself right  The instrument DID sell, so Bob's ploy-analysis came true; it sold BELOW the previous reserve, and nowhere near the Buy It Now price, so my skepticism had some truth, too.

EVERYbody's right! I hope the buyer is also right to have bought this... 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## dave17120

There is an interesting item <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10-STRING-NEOPOLITAN-MANDOLIN-ANGARA-D-ISANTO-1896_W0QQitemZ270241814149QQihZ017QQcategory

Z10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here</a>
10 strings..... Ive not seen that combination before. Courses of 3-3-2-2, sort of like a half mandriola. Dave

----------


## Martin Jonas

We've discussed that very instrument before -- the seller has tried for a while to find a bidder and now he has finally succeeded. I used to own a similar 10-string, same string configuration (3-3-2-2), but built by Umberto Ceccherini. Nice instrument, but I sold it as I already had too many Ceccherini. I changed the Ceccherini to a conventional 8-string -- didn't see any benefit in the triple courses. The interesting thing is that both that Ceccherini and the Ebay Angara & d'Isanto have distributor labels on the back of the headstock, and both of them are music shops in Newcastle-upon-Tyne (but _not_ the same shop). Why Newcastle? Who knows. Maybe there was a music teacher there who promoted this strange stringing system, and the dealers in town commissioned some specially from Italy.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

US-made bowlbacks are rare in the UK, so this fairly plain American Conservatory may be of interest. Condition looks quite good, so the Buy-It-Now looks fairly reasonable.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

I picked up a American Conservatory within an assortment of odds and ends bowlbacks to fiddle some off-hour repairs with over the summer. MIne is a wee notch up from this one, if stave count is any indication, but all the AC instruments I've seen represent the nice wood selection the company should be noted for. #I think they were quite decent instruments, and the stiffer mahogany should give those unfamiliar with L+H #a little more confidence viz neck alignment if you are comping relative to the many lower end Italian bowls on UK ebay. #

Odd thing, though, mine arrived with the tuners also in the 'inverted' position with similar evidence of previous tuner position holes. #

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Here is a modest Martin, at a less than modest starting bid. Despite the fuzzy photographs, it appears to be in fairly decent shape. I'd be surprised if it brought this kind of money, but with recent Martin pricing, it might eventually get near there. Hard to see folks diving in at this though.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=007

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I dunno, Mick. I think that that is a reasonable price for that mandolin, assuming that it is in excellent condition as the seller says. If it needs nothing, you have a quality mandolin for a good price. I think the seller merely put his asking price as the starting price as opposed to the secret reserve. Sort of refreshing that way as opposed to the hocus-pocus. Of course, I would have preferred a BIN instead at that price. Not that I am looking for such a thing, it could be a nice bowlback.

----------


## brunello97

You may be on target handicapping the price, Jim, you usually are. The rapid Martin escalation still comes as a surprise. But you are right, they are a good investment, and folks have caught on.  Not that my opinion should mean anything to a seller, but the reason I don't like the high BiN prices is that it often leads to folks waiting around until the last minute and then firing off a bunch of Sniper bids. It all goes down in a few microseconds.  This mando would certainly bid well up into the $4C range.  I'll send the seller a note about posting a side view, to confirm the neck condition and maybe recommend the MC classifieds. 

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I checked my books and this looks like a nice 1912 Style 0. If you want to go by those things, the VG Price Guide 2008 lists that in exc as $775-900.

----------


## brunello97

> I checked my books and this looks like a nice 1912 Style 0. If you want to go by those things, the VG Price Guide 2008 lists that in exc as $775-900.


Wow. #That kind of money is kind of in orbit. #Those must be in the same league as the tax accessors in Travis Co., TX #who are appraising my house....If it gets anywhere near there I will be amazed--and reconsider putting mine on the block.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

If the above Martin 0 is fairly in the $800 here is a thoroughly decorated apparently no label (US?) bowl going for a reasonable price on the bay. #

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-HANDMADE-MANDOLIN_W0QQitemZ320261660406QQihZ011QQcategoryZ3  59QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrd


Z1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE....iewItem</a>

I wish there were more views of what appears to be a very nice maple bowl. #

And here a couple #'modest' Embergher (orchestra models?) one selling out of CA:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Luigi-Embergher-1899-Mandolin-w-case_W0QQitemZ180253232354QQihZ008QQcategoryZ10179  QQssPage

NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Luigi-E....iewItem</a>

with a label a bit different from the two circle ones I have seen previously.

This one an extremely modest version if the ad is to be believed:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/lugi-embergher-8-string-mandolin-instrument-potto-bug_W0QQitemZ350069037199QQihZ022QQcateg
oryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/lugi-em....iewItem</a>

Billed as a 'potto-bug'. There does look like a LE label peeking out there. #If so, seems remarkably priced at this late stage of the bidding.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> This one an extremely modest version if the ad is to be believed


Yeah, I was the first bidder and have a modest planned bid but I have a feeling that I will be sniped at the end. I shouldn't anyway, but it did look enticing.

Interesting that I have written the seller twice about details on this one and have gotten no reply. Maybe that is why no one is bidding much... then again I am waiting for the snipe.

----------


## Eugene

> Brescian, eh? So... THAT's what it was! # Oh, well... I was short a few _lire Bresciane_, anyway. #


Of this vintage, the more appropriate modifier would be Toscano.

----------


## Eugene

Here are a few that might be of interest:
http://www.brokenbowls.com

Unfortunately, those in which I have most interest--the Kasermann and the German-made, hybrid-Calace-x-Embergher knock off--need just more help than I'd be willing to give them.

----------


## brunello97

I put a bid in on the Kasermann, but you are right, that rotated neck looks might bad. I would like to bring it into my la-BOR-atory to see if I can figure out some cure. 

Given the fact that I've lost the first 6 weeks of this summer due to a herniated disk in my own neck, I have a special incentive to have a go at this one! Maybe a specially designed traction device..........

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here are a few that might be of interest:
> http://www.brokenbowls.com
> 
> Unfortunately, those in which I have most interest--the Kasermann and the German-made, hybrid-Calace-x-Embergher knock off--need just more help than I'd be willing to give them.


I am still trying to clarify with Chris how the bidding works. I guess it is blind bidding -- you don't know if you won until you do -- and you bid what you will pay. In other words, you can't bid your max unless that is what you are willing to pay. If you bid $200 and the next lowest is 25 you still pay $200. Different way of thinking of it. So far the ones mentioned were the most interesting but they do need serious work.

Speaking of broken bowls, it looks like that Embergher B is going to end up retail price in spite of repair issues. It is already over $1500 with 5 hours to go. Good luck to anyone here bidding. My guess is it is going back to Europe or to Japan and will end up $1800-2000.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "...it looks like that Embergher B is going to end up retail price in spite of repair issues."


If I am allowed a brief lapse into cruelty, or at least brutal honesty, the phrase _spare parts_ comes to mind. # #

Absurd, really... Labor-costs being what they are, all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put THIS Humpty-Dumpty together again for less than a grand or more-- at which point of post-repair, implicit mark-up it is nonsensical to own this thing to begin with. But perhaps the Greater Fool Theory holds true here, too, whereby the buyer of an overpriced wreckage hopes to re-sell it, for yet far more than he paid (PLUS repair costs incurred in the meanwhile, of course), to the next... *ahem*... _hopeful_. #

Or, of course, there is the chance that at the end he might remain the unenviable, and altogether pathetic *Last* Fool.  

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Then again, yesterday's fool can be today's genius. I paid top dollar at the time for quite a few instruments but have seen them go up in price considerably. I once spent $800 for a ukulele (!) which is now worth about $10,000.

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## Jim Garber

I finally heard from the seller. For anyone who is considering bidding, take a look at this one. Phew... maybe one for Dave but at 1/10 the current price. I saw the back cracks which were not so bad but this opening is a little scary, esp at that price.

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## vkioulaphides

> "Then again, yesterday's fool can be today's genius."


Of course, Jim. _Can_ IS the operative term. But the odds, of course, favor the foolish outcome, not the brilliant one. Not everyone has your acumen or judgment, Jim...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

While I've been seduced time and again by the Greater Fool Rule, I always seem to forget that the trick is FINDING the greater fool.

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## Jim Garber

> here is a thoroughly decorated apparently no label (US?) bowl going for a reasonable price on the bay.


This one might be a Raphael Ciani work. The cherubic look very much like his or of Angelo Mannello. Looks like it got a respectable over $500 bid as well.

here is a detail for the history.

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## Jim Garber

Here is a labelled Ciani/Galliano for comparison.

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## brunello97

I've seen that cherubini strike plate on a higher end Bruno bowlback that also looked like it might have come out of a NY area shop such as Ciani's. If this one is a Ciani, my respect for his work goes up up a notch even higher.  I think the 'chain' inlay pattern is very pretty and that maple bowl looked very very nice from the limited photos shown. Hopefully some more pictures might turn up here.  The wear on the top above the soundhole seemed kind of odd looking to me. Makes me wonder if it was strung lefty for awhile in its life. A real pretty mandolin.

Mick

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## man dough nollij

Interesting that there's a Masonic Square and Compass symbol on the label.

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## Jim Garber

> wear on the top above the soundhole seemed kind of odd looking to me. Makes me wonder if it was strung lefty for awhile in its life.


I have a feeling that it was played by someone who mostly used it for strummed chordal accompaniment. There is wear on both sides with the left side slightly higher meaning, if I am correct, that the player held it more in an upright stance (neck high). Same wear on the varnish over the pickguard on the treble side. Just my guess.

I just noticed that the mandolin was bought by Flip It Fast which means we will likely see it on eBay again with better pics and probably higher price. I didn't know he was interested in bowlbacks.

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## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"Interesting that there's a Masonic Square and Compass symbol on the label."

Well... think Garibaldi, think Mazzini, _Risorgimento_, and all that. I don't know (and couldn't possibly) for a fact regarding this particular luthier, but Italian Freemasonry has been around at least since the Middle Ages, and still apparently thrives in Italian-language Lodges around the world, including of course New York, but also Argentina, Brazil, and elsewhere. A luthier, i.e. by definition a builder (of instruments), may well have been a member of some craft-specific Lodge. Lots and lots of Italian groups and institutions, _Carbonari_ and the like, had some such affiliations. All this by way of a guess, of course...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

Ah, Victor, now you are swinging on Foucault's Pendulum. Freemasons, luthiery and mandolins. I can hear the Eco of a lot of old and secret knowledge.....

Mick

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## vkioulaphides

Well, Mick, I'm ALWAYS on board for a curious digression. # And chance has taken me to many strange and curious things around the world: I have worked for New York's third-oldest incorporated entity (chartered in 1697), complete with cryptographic plaques from Dutch/English colonial times; the man who restored my bass (and firebranded HIS Fraternal emblem on the bridge) was an Italian-American _muratore_ from Detroit; and so on, and so forth.

But I digress-- this time TOO far, even by my own *ahem* generous standards. # 

Back to mandolin-talk!

Cheers,

Victor

P.S. For those interested in finding out more on the above, please see this link; bearing in mind the "Neapolitan Connection", _vide_ Mazzini, the resistance to the French, the complex _interregno_ and, amidst all that, the MANDOLIN, it is indeed fascinating to speculate.

----------


## Bob A

We Await Silent Tristero's Empire.

Anyway, Pynchon does.

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## vkioulaphides

Rather more humbly, I await global tightening of money to blow a _cooling breeze_ on MANDOLIN PRICES! # 

Remember: the Fraternal Order of the Bowl is not to be messed with, or infuriated with irrational pricing on eBay! Ye sellers of toothpicks-in-form-of-a-mandolin, beware...

With fraternal warnings,

Master Curmudgeon V.K.

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## Jim Garber

I agree with your assessment, MCVK! However, I have long realized that eBay is too closely watched to get any bargains any more with the exceptions of some misspellings and the placing of mandolins in the ladies underwear departments. Even then those stray Emberghers (or Hembuglers) get tracked down one way or the other. And who has time for the flea markets? besides I should be selling, not buying.

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## Martin Jonas

But of course there is a most, err, _direct_ connection between the Carbonari and the mandolin, going something like this:

Carbonari --&#62; Spaghetti Carbonara --&#62; Pizza Margherita --&#62; Queen Margherita of Savoy

The Pizza Margherita was invented by Raffaele Esposito and named after the queen, who was a prominent supporter of mandolin music as well as a player (a Vinaccia mandolin made for her is in the Victoria & Albert Museum in London). I have also seen a mandolin made by Raffaele Esposito. I suspect that this was not actually made by a moonlighting pizza baker, but who knows...

Martin
(Getting mentally ready for the Germany-Portugal quarterfinal tomorrow.)

----------


## vkioulaphides

Interesting... Carlo Aonzo once told us (at his NY Workshop) that the pizza was named, as you say, after the queen; the connection he suggested was that this particular pizza topping (white _provolone_, tomato, and basil) reflected the revolutionaries' _tricolore_.

In introducing mandolin events, I have often suggested that we, latter-day-mandolinists, are also revolutionaries-- in a limited sense, of course: we try to steer away from the stifling omnipresence of the mass media, and towards the rather quaintly old-fashioned, but MOST rewarding practice of music-making among friends.

Or perhaps the connection is that we are remunerated just about as handsomely as the sooty, grimy coal-miners of yore...

----------


## Schlegel

Notable, I think, only in order to define "wishful thinking". Seller "thinks" it is a Martin.


Now for actual interest: a Martello for auction

----------


## Jim Garber

Any chance of a link to that Martello auction, even if it is over?

----------


## Dave Caulkins

The link for the Martello: 

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Superb-19th-C-Neapolitan-Bowl-Back-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ220247848235QQihZ012QQcategoryZ1  0179Q
QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Martello Auction</a>

Definitely a beauty...

Dave

----------


## brunello97

Thanks for the Martello link, Dave. Pretty inlay work. I particularly like the flowers on the headstock.  Is it the photo angle or does it seem to have a curious bowl profile--a rather steep transition from bowl to neck. Very interesting.

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

I have a Ferrari with the same steep transition from bowl to neck. It's quite intricate workmanship on the Martello, but I've never come across that maker, and it's uncertain whether the tone matches the decoration. My Ferrari, for one, has a pretty clangy tone (my mother uses it as a beater when travelling).

Martin

----------


## Neil Gladd

> Freemasons, luthiery and mandolins. I can hear the Eco of a lot of old and secret knowledge.....


I can see a future Nicholas Cage movie, Corelli's National Mandolin Treasure, in which he follows a series of clues that lead to a huge vault of mint condition vintage mandolins...

----------


## Martin Jonas

I don't normally browse Ebay US, but by chance I passed upon this auction for a Brandt bowlback, with front-mounted tuners on a violin-styled scroll headstock. As a handy selling tool, the seller has put a nice Youtube video of him playing the mandolin in the auction, so at least one can be confident that it is actually playable and has a pretty decent tone.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Martello seems to lean toward the heavy ornamentation. Here are a couple more for comparison. All different.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is another.

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## Jim Garber

> I don't normally browse Ebay US, but by chance I passed upon this auction for a Brandt bowlback, with front-mounted tuners on a violin-styled scroll headstock. As a handy selling tool, the seller has put a nice Youtube video of him playing the mandolin in the auction, so at least one can be confident that it is actually playable and has a pretty decent tone.
> 
> Martin


Here's another simultaneous <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Antique-Brandt-Bowlback-Bowl-Back-Mandolin-NR_W0QQitemZ140242396715QQcmdZViewItem?has

h=item140242396715&_trkparms=72%3A635%7C39%3A1%7C6  5%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14" target="_blank">Brandt mandolin</a> from the collection of Pat Lawson as sold by Chris Nolan of brokenbowls.com. According to Chris this one probably needs a neck reset.

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## Jim Garber

Along with the other ornate mandolins above, this Caponetto-Grassi mandolin from Sicily. I wonder if this shop is related to the guitar maker pictured here.

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## Jonathan

Hello all - thought you might like to know about a site that is auctioning off a large collection of sundry bowlbacks to support a local hospice. #The seller's name is Chris Logan, and the site is at #www.brokenbowls.com

These look to be no-name bowls in various states of repair, but perhaps some of the savvy bowlhounds (did I just invent that word?) in this forum will be able to pick out whatever diamonds may be among the offerings.
Happy hunting!

Jonathan Jensen

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## Jim Garber

> Hello all - thought you might like to know about a site that is auctioning off a large collection of sundry bowlbacks to support a local hospice. The seller's name is Chris Logan, and the site is at www.brokenbowls.com


Hi Jonathan:
Long time no hear... thanks for the heads up but we bowlheads/hounds are pretty astute... Eugene noted this (see previous page of this thread) and Chris actually posted his announcement on another thread. These mandolins were from the collection of Pat Lawson, late director of the Victoria BC Mandolin Orchestra.

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## brunello97

I admit taking pleasure in the very crisp MOP inlay on the Martellos shown above and on the Grassi as well. Martin's caveat regarding bling v tone is no doubt quite valid. # My tastes remain quite catholic, my eye being pleased perhaps when my ear is not.

But I have further question in that direction. #In comparing the first two Martellos to the Grassi, for instance, there is considerable difference in the grain of the tops. #Now, over in the 'Builders' section of the board much discussion is regularly made regarding the quality of the wood for the tops (usually carved, in there discussions.) A typical metric of quality is tightness of grain. #Certainly, tonal quality is shaped by a number of complex intertwining factors, but I was wondering if those same top wood grain concerns are also present in the world of the bowl?

Mick

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## vkioulaphides

In short: yes. This I have seen and heard discussed countless times; I will, however, leave the _explanation_ thereof to others. Like anything and everything else in life, this, too, is contestable.

----------


## Bob A

I've seen Emberghers (and my Pecoraro) with grain lines so tight you need a magnifying glass to see some of the divisions. I've also played instruments with exceptionally broad grain. I'm not convinced that width is always a determiant of sound quality. Obviously the Embergher atelier would disagree, and who am I to argue with such folk? Stiffness may play #larger part than grain width, I suspect.

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## vkioulaphides

I believe that the Calace shop, too, echoes the general "party line"... Then again, builders --"New German School" adherents apart-- praise and price their models based on such attributes as number of staves, and we all know how much _that_ affects tone...

----------


## Eugene

> Is it the photo angle or does it seem to have a curious bowl profile--a rather steep transition from bowl to neck.


That's rather old fashioned, having occurred on some 18th-c. mandolins.

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## Eugene

> I don't normally browse Ebay US, but by chance I passed upon this auction for a Brandt bowlback, with front-mounted tuners on a violin-styled scroll headstock. #As a handy selling tool, the seller has put a nice Youtube video of him playing the mandolin in the auction, so at least one can be confident that it is actually playable and has a pretty decent tone.


I owned a very similar instrument that I sold to a Cafe-er on the north shore of Lake Huron. #I kept the two nut-most tuning posts on mine wound in reverse to reduce that obscene friction-inducing angle over the nut.

I've only seen two Brandts without the proper violin-like scroll. #One was a very early example with a more typical headstock, and the other had a very blocky and ugly partial scroll with squarish finial (like a grotesque and graceless Embergher). #They did better with full scrolls.

I like the Brandt aesthetic quite a bit. #They were endorsed by American virtuoso Seth Weeks (eh, Neil?). #Those couple functional ones I've seen (or, in one case, owned) seemed to me to be quite loud, but a little "unrefined" and brassy in tone.

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## brunello97

I love it when the conversation turns to scrolls around here, and (no disrespect to my F playing pals) we're not talking about those kind of scrolls:

Mick

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## dave17120

Anyone spotted this one......... I don't think its been listed here?  this

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## Eugene

A late 19th-early 20th c. mandolino lombardo. It got mention in the "Mandolino" thread.

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## mandobuzz

I was very interested to see a Brandt mandolin on Ebay, and the discussion about it a few posts back. I also own a Brandt #that I bought off of Ebay recently. Prior to that I had never seen one. I'm trying to find out as much information about these mandolins and the builder as possible, with not a lot of luck. I know the basic biographical information of the builder (Here is an interesting link on him from a genealogy site: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th....5679649 ) and that his mandolins were sometimes distributed through William Lewis, and that he might have had an association with Lyon & Healy. 

I am interested in learning more about the different models that he made. The 1x that just sold on Ebay is, cosmetically, the most plain I've seen. A style G up right now on Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Antique-Bra...Z004QQcategory

Z10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ) is very similar to the one I own--labeled a #style C. 

The other thing I am interested in is whether his mandolins had any influence on Lyon and Healy's decision to use a violin scroll on their model A mandolins?

Any more information about the builder or the mandolins would be appreciated!

----------


## Bob A

My understanding is that L&H used the luthiers in their violin department to make the mandolins in question. I suspect that their natural inclination would be to design a scroll for the style A, based on their other work.

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## Jim Garber

The 1899 Embergher style 1 went for $2135 ... respectable but not outrageous, tho it is hard to tell how much work it will need to be playable.

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## vkioulaphides

Being an 1899 Model 1, it has the "short" fingerboard, i.e. the kind that does not stretch across to the "other" end of the soundhole; I believe that feature came about in the late teens, and was standard in the '20s. The rationale behind the extra length was, I think, to support the fingerboard, which could theoretically bend if one presupposes significant use of the stratosphere, and perhaps also a rather heavy hand.  (Incidentally, my Calace has not only the elongated fingerboard, but ALSO a hefty beam counter-supporting it inside the instrument. I cannot speak for such interior support in Emberghers, though...) 

Interestingly enough, this instrument DID have a crack on the fingerboard, that _could_ perhaps have been caused by that sort of material fatigue, i.e. by repeated flex, downwards under the player's hand, back upwards by reflex. Martin, or other engineer(s) on board may be able to confirm my hunch, or simply refute it. Yes, as Jim said, the price was not unreasonable. The catch, however, as always: pictures give one a VERY insufficient idea of what the instrument might actually _need_.

I wish the new owner of his fine-looking instrument best of luck.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Martin Jonas

I'm not entirely sure when Embergher started stretching the extension across the entire soundhole, but my 1915 Tipo A does have the "long" extension, and I believe Jim's 1913 does, too. There is indeed a fairly substantial internal brace under the extension, not just the fingerboard itself. Longitudinal cracks on the fingerboard, such as on the Ebay Model 1, aren't all that rare in ebony fretboards, and of no major concern as they are not structural. My fretboard had a similar crack when I got it; Jon Springall filled it in with coloured wood filler at very little cost indeed, and it is now invisible. I don't think it has to do with repeated flexing (unless you're talking about a different crack from the one I see in the photos).

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Yes, Martin, mine does extend tho I have pics of another one, a model 1 from the same year where it does not extend all the way. Maybe it was not a consistent model feature until later in the teens?

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## vkioulaphides

I checked with the Pratt/Leenen text, and the date given is *1917*; clearly, however, that must be the time these elongated fingerboards were made a _standard_ feature, since they were (as per the above reports) in existence well before that time.

In any case, the crack --yes, Martin, I mean the same one you do-- was not the kind of defect that should discourage any potential owner. But Jim has had other, more *ahem* _complicated_ experiences with vintage Emberghers, involving more than the eye can see...

Cheers,

Victor

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## vkioulaphides

In light of <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SECONDHAND-BOWEL-BACK-MANDOLIN-made-in-ITALY-NAPOLI_W0QQitemZ370063380631QQcmdZViewItem?ha
sh=item370063380631&_trkparms=72%3A638%7C39%3A1%7C  65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14" target="_blank">such</a> infelicitous typos (or misunderstandings), *Bowel*-Backs and all, I suggest that a *Bowl*-Back Antidefamation League be instantly formed.

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## brunello97

Victor, I 'move' that we adopt your motion....

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Despite what the seller days this is an Embergher Type A, (not type 1) tho I do believe that it is a later one made by Cerrone.

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## vkioulaphides

Yes, I agree, and on both counts. IMPECCABLE! Curiously, the differential between opening, asking bid and BuyItNow price is minuscule...  

I'd buy it, but I'm short... lemme see... uhmm...  

Best of luck to the one who _does_ acquire this.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Overpriced at any rate... IMHO.

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## vkioulaphides

Still nice to _look_ at, though...

----------


## vkioulaphides

If

1. you are interested in a "baritone"  mandola,
2. you are located (or have a contact) in Italy, 
3. have a few shekels to spare, AND
4. can do/get decent repair-work economically

then

this is a curiously Embergher-esque creature that, IMHO, will go for dirt. 

None of the above, of course, amounts to a _recommendation_. Just curiosity...

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## vkioulaphides

Curiously, gone... The seller set (after my above posting) a BuyItNow price at 220 Euro, then the instrument vanished. Oh, well... at *1* Euro, it was something to muse over.

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## brunello97

Wow, Victor, that was subito. The seller said he was going on vacation so he wanted to sell it fast. That was sure a nice looking maple bowl!

Mick

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## vkioulaphides

_È vero._ Originally the auction would have ended on the 30th, and the seller wanted payment on the same day, so he/she could cash in on Monday, and send off the instrument on the same day. Later the BuyItNow option came to mind, and the rest is history. Oh, well...

Considering the oddness of the instrument, and the *ahem* _infelicitous_ description as a "baritone" mandola, I had maliciously, perhaps expected this to sell for 20-30 euro at best. Yes, nice maple bowl; oooooooooogleeeeeeeee pickguard, though.  

Oh, well...

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## brunello97

Victor, that pickguard is strange looking. #I can't tell from the photo, but there looks like a bare patch below the soundhole. #Maybe this is a replacement? #Kind of has that big oversized look like some of the Larsons' I've seen (but much less Larson-like.) # Still, at least it didn't have one of those silly dragons on it 

Sono un sempliciotto #per il acero, though.

----------


## Jonathan

49.5 cm is a long vibrating string length even for an "octave" mandola. That, and the fact that it was referred to as a baritone mandola makes me wonder if it was some sort of cello/dola hybrid meant to be tuned somewhere in between.

----------


## trebleclef528

I,ve had a couple of these Embergheryyyy type mandolins, although never a mandola.

I'm fairly certain that this is a "Belcanto" mandola as the shape of the scratch plate / pickguard is one of their standard features. Belcanto were based in Rome and most of their mandolins were in the Embergher / Roman mandolin style. Fairly good instruments..... although nowhere even close to the quality of Embergher.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "49.5 cm is a long vibrating string length even for an "octave" mandola."


True. Still, that leaves me wondering what _exactly_ the optimal stringing could/would be...  Perhaps octave-stringing, but with EXTRA-light-gauge strings? Anyhow, the point is moot.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## vkioulaphides

Say... if you have, oh... *$50K* to spare, or rather spend on "trinkets of dubious utility" (to quote Adam Smith), <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-Rare-Ancient-instrument-Lute-or-Ud_W0QQitemZ280240221288QQihZ018QQcategoryZ359QQss  Pag
eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> may be of interest-- whatEVER that thing is.  Or maybe not. 

But I'm sure the famed primadonna knows the true value of her treasures; who am I to doubt her?

Cheers,

Victor

P.S. Clearly, a slow day at the office.

----------


## trebleclef528

What an object of extreme beauty (the instrument, not the primadonna). I think I saw a similar extremely rare one in a Turkish market in Germany for 10 Euro. But hey! why go for this when the said primadonna is also selling <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-Rare-Original-ANTONIO-STRADIVARI-1719-violin_W0QQitemZ280238819496QQihZ018QQcategoryZ
38108QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> at the knock down price of $1 million (Canadian dollars of course).... what you don'y get injured in the rush to buy.

----------


## Jim Garber

I suppose that $1,000,000 is a real bargain for a real Strad. However, you would think that even at that bargain price a little customer service would be welcome:



> Thank you to all people who sent me letters and offered help, I don't need it. Sorry, I am not able to answer to all questions. If you did not receive from me answer, probably I answered similar already or it's described above. Please read carefully all questions and answers before bidding. This auction for violin only! This violin have NO CERTIFICATES! This is FINAL SALE, NO REFUND, NO EXCHANGE! Thank you and Good Luck!

----------


## vkioulaphides

The operative term being, of course, "real".

----------


## vkioulaphides

For somewhat _more modest_ budgets, going in about half-an-hour from now, <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1893-Luigi-Salsedo-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ230265198664QQihZ013QQcategoryZ1  0179QQssPageNameZWDVW
QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Salsedo</a> is, I believe, a decent builder.

_Caveat emptor_. This is NOT a recommendation. Still, if you have _less than a million dollars_, this is something to look at.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

That Strad has been a topic of some amusement on Maestronet. At that price it won't last much longer, no doubt. And the oud! Hope springs eternal, along with fraud and greed.

The Salsedo languished unbidfor at $150. With a cracked top and replacement tailpiece, it'd be worth a hundred bucks as a fixer-upper, I have no doubt. As a Salsedo fan I'd be tempted; as a guy awash in fixer-uppers, I'll have to pass.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Hmmm. The Salsedo is of course a very plain example, but he was a decent maker and I would have thought should have been worth the $150 starting bid even with those cracks.

Martin

----------


## Schlegel

Well then, by comparison to the "strad" this is a bargain!

----------


## Bob A

Oh, it was probably worth the whole 150, but I was thinking that offering the seller a C-note might shake it loose. Just a cheapjack bottom-feeder, me.

----------


## man dough nollij

Only $50,000 for a used one-string banjo? Where do I sign up?

----------


## brunello97

Is Louis Sutz for real? I have seen references for guitars and violins under his name, but this is a new mandolin name for me, most interesting if actually made in Cincinnati, after seeing many Chicago made Wurlitzers, et al sold out of Queen City shops. 

I'd appreciate hearing any additional information, it it is out there. 

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

As per this new discovery, always make sure you ask your favorite luthier for "even density wood" on the mandolins you commission.

That, or buy that _economic_, certainly _authentic_ Strad for a mere pittance of a million-or-so.  

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

> Using an adaptation of a computer program developed to calculate lung densities in people with emphysema, they were able to analyze the physical properties of violins without risking damage to instruments worth millions of dollars.


That is why my mandolin sounds so much better in those smoky (cough!) bars.

----------


## vkioulaphides

... even though, Jim, that might have to do more with the relative densities of the _liquids_ involved.  

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

I thought to post a few photos of a German made mandolin I recently bought from Chris's 'broken bowls' auction. # #I have never had a Roman style bowlback to play before and of course these bowls are going for a pittance. #

I am not at all familiar with the maker, and the 'Junghanns Nachf' (note 2 Ns in the name) and the M/P logo have me at a loss. #Hopefully Martin (or someone else familiar with German makers has some information.) #My long time office mate is from Bremerhaven and my mother-in-law's family is from all over this region, so there is some sentimental interest as well. 

It seems a quite modest attempt at various Roman/Emberger features. #An extraordinarily tiny neck dimension (which I have been forewarned about.) # The neck is a bit out, but I think I can tweak some bridge adjustment-and a new nut- to get the action reasonable. # # The neck problem seems related to the the top sinking a bit above the soundhole-a problem I have come across on numerous Italian bowls. #It is #not past hope however, with perhaps some added lamination to the underside of the top here, as I have seen as a feature of old Martin bowls. #The frets are shot and will need to be replaced.

I'll attach a few photos over a couple posts. 

thanks for any insight.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Here is another pair showing the neck and the fretboard extension with an embossed 'M'.  What, if anything, was used to line the small circular (soundholes?) below the pickguard?

I'm assuming the TK stands for Tonio Kroger, right?

----------


## Bob A

The holes, and for that matter the pickguard, are very reminiscent of Calace mandolins from the 1920s. No one seems to have any idea what the holes are for, though I have a vague idea that they provide a sort of additional tremolo effect by virtue of the pick hand wagging back and forth over them while playing. 

No doubt the German builder was as puzzled as the rest of us, but figured that if Calace did it, it must be the thing to do.

----------


## Bob A

Speaking of Calace mandolins, I was just cruising Bernunzio's site and note that he has just listed a 1971 Calace with scalloped rosewood ribs. No photo as yet, and I'm not sure what model it is, but the listing quotes a price of $2500. Should anyone be interested. No personal financial interest, nor am I pursuing it.

----------


## dave17120

The little do-hickey that went in the hole was usually plastic or bone, with a central hole, and a slight overlap at the top to stop it going all the way through. You often see them in the sides of German mandolins as well. I'll see if I have one to photo graph. Dave

----------


## Schlegel

I just came across this photo, said to be from a catalog for Brandt.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Schlegel,

That is a very nice photo!

Thanks for posting!


Alex

----------


## Eugene

Where did you find this, Schlegel? #I've never seen a Brandt catalog, but would certainly like to.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Where did you find this, Schlegel? I've never seen a Brandt catalog, but would certainly like to.


As I figured, from Gregg Miner's site.



> Hidden in this picture is what I believe is a fancy model May Flower harp guitar - another Chicago brand of which some are believed to be Larson-built. From an undated (c.1900) Rudolph Wurlitzer Co. brochure on Brandt mandolins. 
> courtesy of Rich Myers


See this page (scroll down some).

----------


## Schlegel

Jim's got it. Actually, there's another Brandt futher down as well in an ensemble pic.

----------


## Bob A

All you corvette-driving rockers might want to give it up for this rare Merrill mandolin in the classifieds.

Get a handle on your lifestyle, dump the gas hog. Move quickly, it won't last.

----------


## Martin Jonas

No doubt that Merrill used to be the personal mandolin of Vice President Garret Hobart...

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Maybe the seller can hook up with the 'illustrious' Washington insider Bob Novak, who may be looking to ditch a corvette of his own:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25819579/

Playing the mandolin might be a safer hobby, anyhow.

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

Looks like our Vietnamese friends are finally starting to scale down the bling: this bowlback is newly-built (rather than a zombiefied vintage one), and reasonably tastefully decorated. Appealing buy-it-now price, too. Of course, there's no knowing whether it's any good -- anybody want to try?

Here is a 1954 Calace -- I think that's a Classico, with scroll headstock, round soundhole, and those super-ugly individual string fretboard extensions. No sure how the tuners are mounted: the headstock has solid wood on both sides, so presumably the tuners are sandwiched in the middle.


Here is a 1912 Embergher. It looks a bit odd, but that may just be the poor photos. Can't really tell much about condition.

This Herwiga Solist could well be a very nice instrument indeed and should be worth the starting price at least.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here is a 1954 Calace -- I think that's a Classico, with scroll headstock, round soundhole, and those super-ugly individual string fretboard extensions. #No sure how the tuners are mounted: the headstock has solid wood on both sides, so presumably the tuners are sandwiched in the middle.
> 
> This Herwiga Solist could well be a very nice instrument indeed and should be worth the starting price at least.


Martin:
I agree with you on those Calace "fingers". Strange concept. Then again, I find the Herwig a little gross also on that scratchplate. I recall other Soloists to be quite understated, like the Emberghers they are sort of copying. BTW do you know if the Herwig Soloists have radiused fretboards?

----------


## brunello97

Am I the only Jugendstil, Stile Liberty, Art Nouveau afficianado? I hope not....
The Herwig scratchplate is a little rough on the craft but generally pleasing to me. That sense of liberty and skill with linework is so rare these days.

The finger extensions on the Calace are creepy, IMHO. Remind me a bit of those Portugese tuners which always look to me like a victim from La Place de la Concorde.

(I do love the very understated Emberghers, minus the bottle opener headstock and silly dragons.) 

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> (I do love the very understated Emberghers, minus the bottle opener headstock and silly dragons.)


I agree with the dragons but i will take the bottle openers.

----------


## brunello97

> Originally Posted by  (brunello97 @ July 29 2008, 15:00)
> 
> (I do love the very understated Emberghers, minus the bottle opener headstock and silly dragons.)
> 
> 
> I agree with the dragons but i will take the bottle openers.


They could come in handy on a warm summer's day.....

I'm really just teasing about all this--to tug on Eugene's chain a little bit. #But I do think the Embergher slotted headstocks are very nicely done and have a curious, if precarious, balance atop the narrow neck. #But my design sense is admittedly off-kilter.

But this is a 'tastes great' vs. 'less filling' argument, a bit ironic with the Belgian buyout of A-B.

Mick

Now, Jim, I'd love to hear a little more about the rosewood 5 you recently played....

----------


## Jim Garber

> Now, Jim, I'd love to hear a little more about the rosewood 5 you recently played....


Let me check with the owner to see if I can post some pics and descriptions.

----------


## Eugene

> I'm really just teasing about all this--to tug on Eugene's chain a little bit.


Hey now! Find myself a little too busy to obsessively patrol the Cafe, and look what happens. ...And it's a partial scroll with square finial.

----------


## brunello97

Just a little fraternal ribbing. Eugene, you do such a great job keeping the presence of The Loyal Brotherhood alive and well on other MC threads.  That type of enlightened contrariness is dear to my Irish heart.

Mick

----------


## Bob A

For those who might have an interest, Bernunzio has 3 of the new Eastman bowlbacks listed on his site. They're running about $1700 apiece. Pe4haps a little pricey.

Today's bargain is in the cafe classifieds: Dave Appollon's Loar F5, for $155K. If I could buy it along with his talent, I'd be selling the homestead instead of writing this.

----------


## billkilpatrick

it's like a rite ... every now and then i look in on this thread; see the pics ... read the comments ... pick up my bowlback ... (la-la-la "parlami amore, mariu/o sole mio") and back it goes into its case.

i bought a new one, incidentally (case, that is.) any resemblance between it and a casket is not far off:

----------


## brunello97

Bill, I'm a little puzzled, as I have you pegged as a fellow Romantic....... I've been in a deep Caruso-cum_Tarantello thing of late myself which has knocked me out of the Luna-Cucchiaio-Giugno thing. (Which my caledonia soul is not too removed from anyhow.) Ma 'Mattinata', ogni mattina, does my heart a world.

If I can speak for The Brotherhood and make my CASE, we need you, broheim. And relish your relish here. That I could wish it on you, I would.

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

> And relish your relish here.


i've been hot-doggin' it in "old time" of late ... anticipating delivery of an oval-hole "f" with scroooooooollllll!

just out of curiosity, how many bowl-bro's own an "f?" i seem to remember eugene saying he didn't.

----------


## Martin Jonas

I have managed to accumulate too many mandos, and (since having children) too little time to play them, so I do have an F5 clone (a Japanese made 1980s Washburn) as well as an oval-hole A (a very nifty 1922 Ajr), but no F4.

Martin

----------


## Joel Spaulding

One -Hundred-Seventy-one Pages! As a bowlback novice,I have little of value to add at this point. 
Have perused and lurked on this thread when it pops up. Now, I am intrigued as I have recently been playing my humble Sakis Bowlback ( by Dionysius Matsikas, I believe). Currently tuned GDGD. When in standard tuning I have been attempting to sketch out some melodies from #the Aonzo, Grisman and Bepe collaboration. (sketch is truly the operative, here  #)

I am compelled to read this thread from the begining. Will ask some questions when I catch up!

----------


## Jim Garber

> just out of curiosity, how many bowl-bro's own an "f?" i seem to remember eugene saying he didn't.


I used to have a 24 F4 but I grew out of it.  I actually found I was playing the others much more and the scroll was cool but doesn't do anything musically for me.

----------


## brunello97

I am F-less at the moment, Bill, and don't see that changing for awhile, though I have been eyeballing the H5(?) mandola kits that Roger Siminoff has. #When I get my building chops down (and stop chopping off my fingertips) I might get back to some choppin', #though unlike some with some biker family heritage, I was "Born to Be Mild".


Mick

----------


## JeffD

Any updates on the Stateside availability of Eastman bowlbacks?

----------


## Jim Garber

> Any updates on the Stateside availability of Eastman bowlbacks?


Jeff: Check above. Bob A mentioned:
"For those who might have an interest, Bernunzio has 3 of the new Eastman bowlbacks listed on his site. They're running about $1700 apiece. Perhaps a little pricey."

Bernunzio's description:
"Eastman Neapolitan sn. 3294 ca. 2008 Classically styled with maple ribs and ebony trim. We saw these instruments being made while we were in Beijing last spring. It was like stepping back in time to see a skilled luthier bending the curly maple staves over his form. When we saw these instruments we made them promise to send some to us. They have finally arrived and they are every bit as good as any old classical mandolin we have heard. , OHSC  NEW  $1699.00"

I guess he only has the maple ones for now.

----------


## Bill Snyder

This bowl back bouzouki is currently up for grabs at Shop Goodwill.
There is also this old bowlback.

----------


## Jim Garber

> This bowl back bouzouki is currently up for grabs at Shop Goodwill.
> There is also this old bowlback.


Thanks for the heads up, Bill. I saw those also. That bouzouki looks a little overly ornately clunky. I think the mandolin is eastern Euro or lowend German.

----------


## Bob A

Effs? We don' need no stinkin' effs!. But I have a '21 F4 (my original Good Mandolin), along with an H4 'dola and a Unicorn (post-Gerhard; signed by Dave Sinko) F5.

After 30 years of plucking on the F4, I find that notes fall better under the fingers on it than they do on any bowlback, despite my spending a lot of bowlback time over the last couple years.

----------


## Fliss

Here's a 1926 #<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Mandolin-Luigi-Embergher-Project_W0QQitemZ120290150789QQihZ002QQcategoryZ10  179QQss

PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Embergher</a> #in desperate need of some tlc. #

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here's a 1926 <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Mandolin-Luigi-Embergher-Project_W0QQitemZ120290150789QQihZ002QQcategoryZ10  179QQss
> 
> 
> PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Embergher</a> in desperate need of some tlc. 
> 
> Fliss


Thanks, Fliss, for the heads up! That looks like Type 2, missing bridge and tp cover. Interesting pattern on the scratchplate. It will still go for a few hundred pounds I would think, even as-is and needing extensive work.

----------


## Eugene

> just out of curiosity, how many bowl-bro's own an "f?" #i seem to remember eugene saying he didn't.


However, I do own a lovely archtop 1907 Gibson A. It's far too neglected. Those flattish, skinny mandolins are just way too hard to hold!

----------


## Martin Jonas

Slightly short notice, but this could be a very good deal indeed: this Ceccherini may end up below the radar, because the seller has misspelled the surname in the auction text, and hasn't used it at all in the title. With only that one photo, one can't say much about condition, but if the seller has been playing it regularly at "gigs" (whatever those might constitute), it's presumably in readily playable condition. The reported "crack" in the back may well just be a separation, or it may be serious -- clearly that needs a photo, and the absence of one probably keeps the bids away, too. Currently with one bid at the starting price of GBP100 ($200) with 18 hours to go, and I would think it should be worth at least three times that unless there's something seriously wrong with it. Interesting variation on the normal Ceccherini scratchplate, by the way -- this one still seems to be a one-piece scratchplate and soundhole surround, but it imitates a Vinaccia-esque shape with separate rose.

Also ending soon is this anonymous bowlback, currently at GBP73. It may be a dog, but the fluted ribs are pretty (the scratchplate and fretmarkers less so).

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Hi Martin:
Thanks for the heads up on the "Geccherini". I have been wanting one for some time tho I don't known if this is "the one." I might try... then my collection would be complete and I would never have to buy another mandolin.

----------


## vkioulaphides

HA!

----------


## Martin Jonas

Go for it, Jim! Good luck!

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

Should anyone wish for a New-German-School-ish sort of instrument (and IF it stays super-cheap), <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-DEUTSCH-guter-Zustand-SINFONIA_W0QQitemZ160269854887QQihZ006QQcategoryZ7  798QQssP
ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> may be of interest.

This is NOT, however, a _recommendation_. I know absolutely NOTHING about the origin, less yet the _quality_ of this instrument. Don't shoot the link-provider!

----------


## vkioulaphides

Then again, if only a RED-faced mandolin would make you happy, here is the instrument of your dreams. _De gustibus_, and all that...

----------


## Jim Garber

Re: the Geccherini

Well, someone got a good deal on this mandolin. I had emailed the seller yesterday since he/she did not indicate shipping anywhere besides the UK and I asked for additional pics. The mispelling plus some negative feedback might have kept some bidders away. Besides the auction ended around 5am my time.

----------


## Jim Garber

1923 Type 1 Embergher mandola

Super-high shipping cost, tho.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Barely a minute later, and ALREADY gone?

----------


## Jim Garber

> Barely a minute later, and ALREADY gone? #


No, I typed in the wrong number. Try the link again.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Oh, OK... Now, where's that *$5,000* bill I keep handy, _expressly_ for such occasions?  

Thanks anyway, Jim. Your finds are ALWAYS a pleasure-- vicarious as that might be, of course.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is another vicarious one: Fluted metal back mandolin.

I wonder who the maker is... never saw anything like it. Too bad the top looks trashed. Then again, if someone wants to take a chance it has a Buy It Now.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "I wonder who the maker is..."


_Alfonso Corrugati_.  He also built roof-tops for the shanty-towns around Naples, chicken-coops, dumpster-lids, and other such necessities.

----------


## Jim Garber

That mandolin would be excellent for bailing out those gondolas.

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

A maple back. Ebay 200244833607

----------


## billkilpatrick

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> "I wonder who the maker is..."
> 
> 
> _Alfonso Corrugati_.  He also built roof-tops for the shanty-towns around Naples, chicken-coops, dumpster-lids, and other such necessities.


actually, alfonso learned everything there was to know about luthery from venerable mandolin maker in saigon - quon-scet hut ...

----------


## Jim Garber

> A maple back. Ebay 200244833607


More convenient: direct link

Despite what the seller says, this is a Japanese mandolin prob made by Suzuki.

----------


## trebleclef528

> Originally Posted by  (Claughaun @ Aug. 08 2008, 17:45)
> 
> A maple back. #Ebay 200244833607
> 
> 
> More convenient: direct link
> 
> Despite what the seller says, this is a Japanese mandolin prob made by Suzuki.


[QUOTE]

Yes Jim definately an early Suzuki with "srew on" bakalite arm rest. Looks to be in very good condition.
I've had a few of these with the name Orpheus on the headstock and I presume that Suzuki was the supplier.

----------


## Jim Garber

I know, not really a mandolin but just a photo of one. I just received this photo of the Andrini Brothers from 1945 with Fred playing his famous signature mandolira:



I posted the full photo also on the last page of the vintage photo thread.

I believe that a friend of mine in San Francisco owns this mandolin, tho I think it is in bad shape as I recall. I will email him. I think it is a Calace.

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

Watch out! He'll poke your eye out....

----------


## Martin Jonas

There are many many Stridentes on Ebay UK more or less every day, but I've never seen one decorated like this one, with one of those all-MOP fingerboards. I associate those more with the fancier Washburns. Mind you, the Stridente manages to look cheap and downmarket even with those decorations (or indeed because of them).

Here is a 1913 Embergher Type B with rosewood bowl, which seems to be in pretty good condition. Cheap at the moment, but there's still six days to go. No doubt it'll go up quite a bit.

I can't remember whether we've already discussed this damsel-in-distress, a maple-bowled 1922 Embergher orchestral model. 293 Euro with more than a day to go, despite the condition.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

Thanks, Martin. The Type B will surely go _way_ up; a near-mint condition Type A [of 1957, thus by Giannino Cerrone, aided presumably by Sr. Pecoraro] commanded a hefty sum yesterday.

As for the beat up damsel... the services of a qualified luthier will surely add anOTHER hefty sum to the purchase+restoration price. I'd consider it ONLY if I _were_ such a luthier myself; I am not.

I'll just sit down and be quiet...

----------


## Jim Garber

> a near-mint condition Type A [of 1957, thus by Giannino Cerrone, aided presumably by Sr. Pecoraro] commanded a hefty sum yesterday.


I think Sr. Cerrone's first name was Domenico. In any case, do you have a link for that one? I think I may have missed it.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Yes, Jim, but _Domenico_ (i.e. Cerrone *Sr*) died in 1954, whereas the instrument in question was built in 1957, when the shop was run by his son, _Giannino_ Cerrone; there is some suggestion/suspicion that mandolins of that era were rather products of Sr. Peroraro's artful hands, though.

----------


## vkioulaphides

... and this is the link. 

Pretty, squeaky-clean instrument.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Yes, I had seen that 1957 one. It's remarkable how close they stayed to the original designs once they had coalesced into a numbered model hierarchy -- as far as construction and decoration is concerned, this one could be a twin of my 1915 model. However, the wood is much coarser-grained and there seems to be a glossy finish where the older one was unfinished. Surely that must affect tone. I would think the finish also accounts for the immaculate optical appearance.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Sorry, Victor, I must bone up on my post-Luigi history of the atelier. The interesting part of all this is that among the congnoscenti, the later Emberghers are prized by some above the earlier ones since they most likely were the work of one artist. For instance, my friend's 5bis from 1947 (or 6) was likely the sole work of Cerrone, Sr. rather than the multiple hands of many other workers in the studio.

Anyway, thanks for the link. That price does not seem too much for a quality instrument, however plain.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "That price does not seem too much for a quality instrument, however plain."


You're right, Jim. Just sour grapes.

----------


## Jim Garber

Is this really a Fratelli Vinaccia? I dunno... looks suspect tho the tuner cover and tailpiece looks fancy enough the fretboard and round soundhole and inlaid scratchplate also look suspect to me. 

Has anyone else seen ones like this?

----------


## Martin Jonas

Looks very suspect to me. The bowl and headstock could possibly be Vinaccia, but the fretboard, soundboard, bridge and tailpiece look like no Vinaccia I've ever seen. Indeed, I don't think they are Italian at all -- I'd guess German (and fairly low-level at that). This is either an outright fake or a retopped Vinaccia with replacement fretboard.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

That is what I thought, Martin.

----------


## Kero

I don't know yet, if this is a noteworthy bowl, but i just won it on ebay...any idea of the maker? No sticker inside, coming from the uk..

----------


## Kero

& another pic:

----------


## Martin Jonas

Italian, more or less Vinaccia-esque, decent workmanship, good woods. Looks a good catch to me. I don't think it's one of the top builders (the scratchplate and rosette are ever so slightly inelegant), but certainly a serious instrument rather than a tourist souvenir (as many others were).

Should be fun -- let us know how you get on!

Martin

----------


## Kero

> Italian, more or less Vinaccia-esque, decent workmanship,


will do, and thanks for temporary peace of mind :-)

----------


## Martin Jonas

Quite a nice looking Pasquale d'Isanto (apart from a bit of damage at the headstock).

A 1952 Calace, of the uglier type.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

... and hardly a "rarity", of course.

----------


## billkilpatrick

notable "hole in the side of the bowl" bowlback in this vivaldi video - to say nothing of the crushed looking waif at the beginning:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8QdLoZdesFU

----------


## brunello97

Here is a Martin Style 3 that looks very well taken care of. Nice mandolin. I enjoy their restrained sense of style.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=002

Mick

----------


## Eugene

I like it!

----------


## brunello97

Glad you saw it, Eugene. I was thinking of you when it showed up. Very nice piece of work. I hope it goes to someone who really enjoys it.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Pecoraro Model 6 on Marco Onorati's site. Nice video of his wife playing.

I am sure that he wants big euros for this one!

----------


## Bob A

Despite my oft-stated and totally irrational preference for maple bowls, I'm compelled to say that I find the maple/rosewood bowl on that Pecoraro to be absolutely the cat's pajamas. Would it be ethical to post a pic here for posterity's sake?

----------


## Jim Garber

I heard from a friend who inquired. Marco wants 10,000 or $14,266 (at current rates ) or over £8000.

Jim

----------


## billkilpatrick

this might have been covered in the 173 pages of this thread or be common knowledge to everyone but me: how did the bowlback's bent face come into being? ... what is its purpose?

----------


## Bob A

The cant across the face permits a higher string tension by giving the strings a better break angle over the bridge. The curve that's built into the top of Neapolitan bowlbacks (this would be at right angles to the cant) serves to strengthen the belly of the instrument and to help resist the pressure of the bridge, which is now pushing into the instrument with increased vigor due to the increased break angle.

----------


## Bob A

$14K! Woof. I suspect this is some sort of record. Wonder if anyone will pay that much.

----------


## billkilpatrick

> The cant across the face permits a higher string tension by giving the strings a better break angle over the bridge. The curve that's built into the top of Neapolitan bowlbacks (this would be at right angles to the cant) serves to strengthen the belly of the instrument and to help resist the pressure of the bridge, which is now pushing into the instrument with increased vigor due to the increased break angle.


that makes sense. is there a prototype on record or an earlier instrument from which this innovation was borrowed?

----------


## Bob A

I'm thinking the Vinaccia family came up with the cant, and development of (steel) strings capable of producing higher tensions led to arching of the table. I'm possibly wrong about this.

----------


## Jim Garber

I would think that the use of a tailpiece and a moveable bridge might have necessitated the cant. I look fwd to hearing form some on the historical experts on this.

----------


## billkilpatrick

> I would think that the use of a tailpiece and a moveable bridge might have necessitated the cant. I look fwd to hearing form some on the historical experts on this.


flat backs have a moveable bridge and tail piece but no cant. i assume that flat face instruments of all sorts (citole, lute, oud ...) preceded the bent face - as did moveable bridges and tail pieces.

----------


## Martin Jonas

A rather beat-up Fratelli Vinaccia, already at 331 Pounds with over five days to go.

Another 1954 Calace.

Somewhat older: 1916 Calace.

And from the same seller a 1923 Vinaccia.

To complete the "Big Three" Grand Slam, the same seller also has a 1920 Embergher orchestral model.

Martin

----------


## Bob A

FWIW, my Greek mando has a moveable bridge and tailpiece, but no cant and no arch to the belly. I understand that this is typical of the instruments from that country.

It's interesting to speculate on the migration routes involved. I suspect a large Turkish influence in ealy 20th century Greek musical tastes, with carryover of instrument design. Not too far from Italy; but then there's the North African influence, carrying the oud thru Sicily toward Napoli. Not to mention the present-day charango cult centered around Firenze. Probably too late to have much effect on mandolin design, though earlier voyagers visiting South America may have carried the armadillo-based technology to Italy several centuries ago.

Or perhaps not.

----------


## billkilpatrick

bob? ... BOB?! ...

----------


## Bob A

Yes, Bill . . . your influence has not been overlooked. The walls have ears . . .

----------


## Jim Garber

> Yes, Bill . . . your influence has not been overlooked. The walls have ears . . .


Yes... and sometimes the instruments have ears as well.  :Smile:

----------


## billkilpatrick

> Yes... and sometimes the instruments have ears as well.


very good - you've been waiting to post that for nearly 24 hours ...

armadillos are thick skinned - we can take it!

----------


## Fliss

> Another 1954 Calace.
> 
> Somewhat older: 1916 Calace....


I do like the look of those Calaces.  The 1954 one looks almost a twin to the 1974 one I had, just a more ornate rosette.

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

> very good - you've been waiting to post that for nearly 24 hours ...
> 
> armadillos are thick skinned - we can take it!


Actually, it was closer to 24 years for the right straightman to post.

----------


## Bob A

Twenty-four years to scratch that jocularity itch? You need to get out more.

----------


## Martin Jonas

1926 Embergher No. 2.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> A rather beat-up Fratelli Vinaccia, already at 331 Pounds with over five days to go.


This one sold for £710 ($1270). Probably needs at close to that in repairs. Open back crack, broken pediment, top warpage and separation, who knows what else.

----------


## Jim Garber

Coming up in the 07 October 08 Sotherby's London Musical Instrument auction... three bowlbacks with rather (IMHO) optimistic estimates:

Ermelinda Silvestri - 4,000—6,000 GBP

Ferdinando DeVenuti - 3,000 – 5,000 GBP 

Giovanni De Santis & Figli - 3,000—5,000 GBP

Hopefully these are in good shape and the two Roman instruments certainly are intersting... I have never heard of DeVenuti, but that means nothing. Is there anyone who can head over to that auction to take a look and give us an in-hand report?

----------


## Bob A

Optimistic? If they get anywhere near these prices, I'ma consign 80% of my collection in the next auction.

----------


## trebleclef528

I'm with you on that Bob.... we could retire with those estimates. Me thinks whoever is the "estimator" ain't got a clue!... however it will be interesting to see if these very high estimates have a "phsycological" effect on the bidding... ie some sees an estimate of £3000, and thinks they have a bargain at £1500, which i would'nt pay for any of them, and probably not even for all 3.

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## Jim Garber

I am not sure if we already noted this 1893 Nicola and Raffaele Calace.

Very interesting and different from the later ones. At first I only saw some cosmetic problems (inlays missing and oversprayed bowl) and then I noticed that the neck has some serious issues near the headstock.

Still I would think this would be pretty rare and before the "divorce" of the two brothers.

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## Jim Garber

1985 Calace mandola in the classifieds: #30287

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## Jim Garber

Am I the only one here any more? Oh, I know everyone else is *playing* the mandolin, no one is looking at any for sale. That is a good thing, right?

Anyway, I heard from Kurt DeCorte, luthier in Belgium, who is selling this interesting museum piece on eBay. Sounds like even he doesn't want to put the work into it but it looks like an 18th century mandolin. The price, at the moment, is right.

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## Jim Garber

Oh, now I see that you cannot delete your posts... I mistakenly posted twice. Oh well.

----------


## Bob A

Elvis (and everyone else) has left the building. It's just you, Jim. 

Of course it might have been just you all along. The time to begin worrying is when your hallucinations start talking back to you. 

Solipsistically yours, 
JG

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## Jim Garber

I had a feeling that it was just me. Suddenly I woke up in Maryland with a whole new set of beautiful mandolins. Thanks, Bob... er...Jim.

----------


## JeffD

> Anyway, I heard from Kurt DeCorte, luthier in Belgium, who is selling this interesting museum piece on eBay. Sounds like even he doesn't want to put the work into it but it looks like an 18th century mandolin. The price, at the moment, is right.



Do  you think that thing can be made playable for anything approaching a reasonable price?

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## Jim Garber

It depends. I t sounds like Kurt doesn't want to bother. I think if it was a proven  Vinaccia it would be worth whatever it takes. However if the top needs to be reconstructed that would severely diminish the value of the instrument as a historic artifact tho it might be something nice to play. the bowl sure looks nice.

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## JeffD

I like the idea of using it as a model for a modern reconstruction. It is a thing of beauty.

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## trebleclef528

Don't worry Jim your not alone, although postings do seem to be few and far between.
Kurts "Vinaccia" style mandolin certainly is a beauty and I'm sure some luthiers who specialise in the older restorations would do it proud. I spoke to Kurt by email about this one and he said he is just to busy with other restorations.

I know it's not a mandolin but this (ebay Germany 270277730800 - why cant I do links anymore??) is also on offer from Kurt "Alte Antike gitarre HARPGUITAR Levien Paris c.1830".. interesting.

Come on now everyone, say hello to Jim, he's worried he's the only mandolin maniac left on the site... tee hee!

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## Martin Jonas

Your change to own a Merrill.  It takes a certain amount of cheek to advertise this as "in pretty good condition with a just a few small dents to the bowl".  You don't need a soundboard anyway...

Martin

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## billkilpatrick

you beat me to it ... looks like something medieval, pulled out of a danish tar pit.

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## Kero

> Should be fun -- let us know how you get on!
> Martin


FInally arrived yesterday, solid, nice tone, the only thing I had to do is to raise
the bone insert in the bridge a tad, it was too low..later i'll cut a custom bone..

downloaded bach, vivaldi tabs from mandozine, very happy :-)

Just a question..since i'm totally green in the classical area, what is the common wisdom for classical tremolo practice...triplets or up and downs, searched the forum, but didn't see a consessus about this...Thanks :-)

----------


## Jim Garber

Kero's mandolin

I had no idea what you were referring to but was able to find your pics two pages back. Congratulations!!

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## Bob A

Pretty mandolin, Kero. 

Regarding consensus on tremolo, there isn't any. It can me measured or unmeasured, as rapid as you can control it or variable depending on context. The most interesting thing about professional classical mandolinists is the variety of approach to various tasks and techniques; some of them are dead wrong according to some texts, yet they play better than I ever will. 

Chaos rules; we've chosen the most anarchic instrument possible, and we agree to disagree. The bottom line is one of life's great lessons: you can do whatever you can get away with . . . never explain, never apologise.

----------


## Jim Garber

Current thread all about  tremelo

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## brunello97

Kero, the only membership 'dues' to become a full-fledged member of The Loyal Order of the Bowl, (as far as I know) is that you post more pictures of your new acquisition.  

I'm with Bob, in feeling it looks quite pretty.  A lot of Italian bowl-lovers here who would enjoy in vicariously sharing in your good fortune.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

This should really be posted under Bowlback Tuners of Note. Interesting tuners

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## vkioulaphides

Emberghers galore...

http://cgi.ebay.de/Liugi-Embergher-M...d=p3286.c0.m14 is a GLORIOUS looking _mandola_.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Luigi-Embergher-M...d=p3286.c0.m14 is a Tipo B but, alas, with a tragically sunken top.  :Frown: 

If in pursuit of a Tipo B, there is a FAR better looking one in the *Classifieds*, by the way.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-mit-Zet...d=p3286.c0.m14 makes me a bit suspicious, as the owner merely claims that the instrument bears an Embergher _label_, which sounds like a pre-emptive defense tactic against a possible, subsequent grievance/lawsuit... 

So many mandolins, so little money...

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## Jim Garber

> http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-mit-Zet...d=p3286.c0.m14 makes be a bit suspicious, as the owner merely claims that the instrument bears an Embergher _label_, which sounds like a pre-emptive defense tactic against a possible, subsequent grievance/lawsuit...


Good thing because that one looks rather un-Embergheresque to my amateur eye. That scratchplate is a dead giveaway to me -- unless anyone knows better. And the neck join is lacking the grace.

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## Jim Garber

> Emberghers galore...
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.de/Liugi-Embergher-M...d=p3286.c0.m14 is a GLORIOUS looking _mandola_.


That one is beling sold by Kurt DeCorte in Belgium.

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## vkioulaphides

Yes, Jim, the last instrument I referenced does NOT convince me it's an Embergher _at all_. Funkier yet, the seller's disclaimer is, well... somewhere between the honest and the disingenuous.  :Mad:  It looks like a pre-emptive excuse of "Oh, I never claimed that the instrument _itself_ is BY Embergher; all I said was that it had an Embergher _label_ ON it."

Nope, I wouldn't hazard my own shekels on this one...

Had this been a "free-standing" thread, I would have named it The Good, the Sad, and the Suspect.  :Laughing:

----------


## brunello97

> Emberghers galore...
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.de/Liugi-Embergher-M...d=p3286.c0.m14 is a GLORIOUS looking _mandola_.


Has Bob seen this bowl?  Delicious.

Mick

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## brunello97

I am admittedly no fan of the silly dragons of old, or the bottle-opener head stock but this mandola, Victor, is out of control beautiful to my eye.  Just look at the attenuated bowl/neck transition here. I've got chicken-skin.

Mick

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## etbarbaric

"this interesting museum piece on eBay. Sounds like even he doesn't want to put the work into it but it looks like an 18th century mandolin. The price, at the moment, is right."

.... Less right as time goes on.  It is/was clearly an 18th century mandolin. The Vincaccia claim is of course tenuous without a credible label.  I might suspect others.  The wood worms have certainly had their way with the table... sigh.

Eric (who *finally* got re-logged in to the new version of the message board...)

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## Bob A

Singularly toothsome indeed. Pity that money is such a finite resource.

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## vkioulaphides

Indeed, Mick, that is arguably the MOST beautiful mandola I have EVER seen! Then again, the price is appropriately high, and beyond my reach. Oh, well...

Kurt Decorte is a HIGHLY respected luminary of the mandolin world, and the fact that this instrument is coming from his hands to those of the next owner speaks volumes. [I may eventually have *ekhm* some "personal connection" with Kurt's work to report...  :Wink:  ]

--------------

As I have received a couple of direct messages about this, please allow me to reiterate, by way of clarification: 

I am not _at all_ certain that the third instrument I referenced IS an authentic Embergher, and in fact would bet that it is NOT, based on what I see on the images. German (perhaps), Emberger-_esque_ for sure, but no more than that. Perhaps Alex can have the final word on this. The reason I _did_ mention it at all is simply because it is _listed_ as "bearing an Embergher label", and thus comes up when one enters the key-word "Embergher". Allegation is allegation, that's all; truth, often an entirely different matter...

Having said all that, if this sells for, say, 100-200 euros, and someone wants a _Romanesque_ instrument, hey... be my guest! I just wish to gently halt the flow of questions sent to me regarding my "recommendation"; it is no such thing, friends.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## vkioulaphides

On the other hand, the _second_ instrument I referenced above DOES convince me it is a legitimate Tipo B --albeit, sadly, with a horrifically sunken top. My highest hope would be *hint, hint* that one of the fine luthiers on board would take notice of this --Brian, David, Jeff, others, are you there?-- buy it at some ridiculously low price, and then rebuild it by lifting the top and performing a total make-over. My $0.02 worth of wild dreaming...

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## Jim Garber

> I just wish to gently halt the flow of questions sent to me regarding my "recommendation"; it is no such thing, friends.


Victor:
 I have no idea why anyone would assume you were recommending that one. This is, after all, Bowlbacks of Note and you were merely noting (and not necessarily in the musical sense.)

I have a friend semi-seriously interesting in the mandola. I am bidding for him since he cannot do so during his work day. if he deos win it, hopefully we will see and play this one at some time. I will keep you posted.

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## vkioulaphides

I can't figure it out either, Jim... Perhaps the fact that the Counterparty Risk Index is sky-high these days  :Wink:  makes people ever so slightly anxious about ALL counterparties, even when they are decidedly NOT party to any prospective transaction. Hence my disclaimer, of course...

Good luck on the mandola. What a DREAM of an instrument!

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## Jim Garber

Irony of ironies... my friend debated (with himself) going for the Buy It Now but instead he put in a bid a few hundred less and was outbid the day the auction ended. I bid for him near the Buy It Now (3500) but the high bidder had bid more. Too bad. I am disappointed since it will be somewhere in Europe.

In the meantime, the Emberghers have been coming out of the woodwork, so to speak. Even we Americans are now aware of the pull of that name. Here is a 1950 Domenico Cerrone-signed Embergher Orchestra Tipo 2. I am currently high bidder under reserve but I doubt that this seller, who seems to have done his homework, would have a lowball reserve. I am sure that his reserve is at least $2000. My cash reserve is not really high enough to go for this one anyway, so feel free to bid.

It looks in decent shape but probably needs some work tho upon my first look I thought it looked different from other Emberghers. I have heard that the Cerrones are quite nice -- in fact my friend's 5bis is from that era and is an incredible mandolin.

----------


## vkioulaphides

"In the meantime, the Emberghers have been coming out of the woodwork..."

Ah, nothing like _hardship_ to scare up artifacts out of people's closets... The very finest of (bowed) string instruments left Europe right after WWII, for obvious reasons; my own bass teacher (David Walter)  had a GLORIOUS 17th-century  Amati, bought by _his_ teacher (Frederick Zimmerman, of the N.Y. Philharmonic) in Northern Italy from Isaia Bille (of Method fame), star student of _truly_ famed Giovanni Bottesini, and brought over to the States in 1945. Expect MUCH more such "transfer of assets"...

Regarding the mandola, yes: I was afraid that what _did_ happen _would_ happen. Pricey, yes, but certainly _worth_ the money. If I HAD the money, I'd have gone for the Buy It Now.

Good luck with the Cerrone. Miraculously, I am happily out of the market.  :Grin: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

> "In the meantime, the Emberghers have been coming out of the woodwork..."
> 
> Ah, nothing like _hardship_ to scare up artifacts out of people's closets... The very finest of (bowed) string instruments left Europe right after WWII, for obvious reasons; my own bass teacher (David Walter)  had a GLORIOUS 17th-century  Amati, bought by _his_ teacher (Frederick Zimmerman, of the N.Y. Philharmonic) in Northern Italy from Isaia Bille (of Method fame), star student of _truly_ famed Giovanni Bottesini, and brought over to the States in 1945. Expect MUCH more such "transfer of assets"...


Very interesting point, Victor, and sobering.  I appreciate the historical perspective on it:  The lifespan of an instrument measured against the lifespan of musicians and the ongoing cultural and historical changes.  The Red Violin is a movie favorite.  I guess A Cello Story is along similar lines.  Good food for thought during these difficult times.

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

the idea "maintaining" an instrument for the future - as opposed to just owning it - is something i'd not thought about when playing guitar(s).  the fact that there are zillions of them on the planet made me think of them as (sort of) disposable.

not so with mandolins - i don't know why.  

my bowlback needed restoring - it had to be done - but i was very aware of the grime, dust and hypothetical chi it had acquired from its previous owner and how all that would be lost in the cleaning process.  not too anxious to have grandchildren as yet - but if and when they arrive, i hope my mandolins and charangos will be around for them to gawk at.

----------


## Jim Garber

A large majority of the instruments I play are vintage. What is missing is the history of the previous owners and their stories. So often I do believe that we are merely caretakers of these musical treasures. 

Occasionally, the windows open and a few bits of story flow thru. My favorite violin was an oddball made by a Brooklyn, NY maker by the name of Frank Ashley. I was incredibly lucky to happen upon a geneological site that had a query mentioning him. I was then able to get in touch with his grandson.  The story is here. 

Just recently, sometime sent me a 1915 magazine with a short mention about Ashley playing a concert on his violin.

Now if I could only find the descendants of Achilio Puccinelli, the maker of my octave heart-shaped mandola

----------


## vkioulaphides

One of the Amati family, builders of famed bowed string instruments, was Geronimo, signing his instruments with the Latinate version of his first name, "Hieronymous". Present-day musicians --known for our irreverence  :Wink:  --refer to any spurious Amati as an "Anonymous Amati".

Ditto on the Dubious Embergher. I am sure someone will be able to find a better name to convey the same idea of tenuous authorship: perhaps _Ponzi_ Embergher?  :Laughing: 

And yet it sold for 311 euro!  :Disbelief:  

The train-wreck (authentic) instrument is still stuck at 54 euro, but with 4 days remaining...

----------


## Jim Garber

For anyone who wants a decent (looking at least, hopefully playing as well) Washurn 215. Price would be reasonable if it is in good shape and needs little to make it playable.

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## brunello97

> For anyone who wants a decent (looking at least, hopefully playing as well) Washurn 215. Price would be reasonable if it is in good shape and needs little to make it playable.


After taking on a few of Chris's 'Broken Bowls' this summer it is impressive to see a ~100 year old bowl in seemingly such good condition.  Perhaps the beat-up leather case has done its job over the years. I had a 215 and found it a sweetly toned, nicely playing mandolin. The wider and sturdier Great Lakes Rim mandolins might not appeal to everyone, but to my eye and ear give little away to the jobber bowls coming out of Italy during this period.

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

> A large majority of the instruments I play are vintage. What is missing is the history of the previous owners and their stories. So often I do believe that we are merely caretakers of these musical treasures.


I'm glad to say I know who originally owned my Embergher -- he was an opera singer with the Company of the Berlin National Opera in the 1930s and 1940s, and you can still buy CDs of Wagner operas on which he is credited.  I bought it off his grandson.  Then there is my modest Majestic, which belonged to my grandfather and then gave both me and my mother our first stumbling steps on mandolin (a few decades apart).  I find it does add a lot to have some sort of historical perspective and back story to vintage instruments.

Martin

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## JeffD

Please excuse a naive question - Would the 215 appear on the instrument? ON the top edge of the headstock?

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## Martin Jonas

I think one would want to see a photo of the label, but if the seller's transcription is correct, this is a Vinaccia.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Yet another "live one".

Also: Herwig Soloist

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## etbarbaric

Hi Martin,




> I think one would want to see a photo of the label, but if the seller's transcription is correct, this is a Vinaccia.


Actually, if the reading of the label is correct, I believe this is by Gennaro Rubino (firstname/lastname) who may have been a pupil (or a member of the Fratelli at some point).  I have seen at least one instance of a vendor trying to sell a Gennaro Rubino as a Vinaccia (they even insisted on calling it so after being confronted with evidence to the contrary).   Even when the instrument was originally built, it made sense to draw a relationship with the atelier, but this one at least seems to name the actual maker.

Actually, the earlier case was humorous enough to bear repeating.  One vendor posts an instrument described as by "Gennaro and Rubino Vinaccia" (it is, of course by Gennaro Rubino... but the label was fuzzy)... Someone else has a fancy mandolin to sell, looks up this Website... sees some similarities, and pitches their own instrument as by the same Gennaro and Rubino Vinaccia.  A well-known Italian seller scoops up the second instrument and continues to attempt to resell it as by the heretofore unknown duo of Gennaro and Rubino Vinaccia.  Alert members of this list properly attribute the instrument (without looking at a label, mind you) as by Angelo Mannello.   

:-)

Best,

Eric

----------


## MandoSquirrel

> For anyone who wants a decent (looking at least, hopefully playing as well) Washurn 215. Price would be reasonable if it is in good shape and needs little to make it playable.


BIN 	US $289.00. I'd wondered about the value on these.
I got mine this past summer for a bid of $66.00. All told, with shipping & Paypal discount coupon, $70.93. Of course, there's no case, & the action's almost too low("e" string kind of  dead at 10th fret only).

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## billkilpatrick

from ebay germany - anthropomorphism is alive and well ...

(sorry should have been placed in "flatbacks of note.")

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## billkilpatrick

dull day ... been trollin' ebay ... here's a weird sound hole decoration (from ebay france):

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## Bob A

Yowza, Bill, you have way too much time on your hands. Also, is the French lady, ahh, unclothed? Better watch out for the Naked Lady Police. (Your record in that dept is, as I seem to recall, somewhat dubious. Doubtless it's the Italian climate that makes you so warm-blooded).

----------


## billkilpatrick

> ... is the French lady, ahh, unclothed? Better watch out for the Naked Lady Police ...


oh no! ... arrrggghhh - not again! ...

----------


## Jim Garber

A rather ornate Ceccherini. Even tho it is over the top in ornamentation, I still find it aesthetically pleasing. A the current price it is very reasonable, but I think it will go for considerably more.

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## Schlegel

I was just looking at that Ceccherini. The engraving on the inlay is _very_ nice.  It is extremely ornate indeed, but the quality of the work is outstanding, and makes it all work, IMO.

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## Bob A

Looks nearly identical to the one that had been on the Vintage Instrument (Philadelphia) site for a while, and similar to mine. Mine has a more floral motif; the VI was bird-oriented, as this one is.

VI had a price tag of $8000 on theirs, but who knows what it actually brought?

----------


## Jim Garber

You are right, Bob. That is probably why the seller mentioned the $8,000 evaluation. I tried to upload the photo from Fred's site but the board says I uploaded this one already so won't let me do so. If I can find it on this looooong thread I will link it.

Ah, here it is:

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## Jim Garber

Nice, simple Vinaccia/Munier in the UK.

It sure has been quiet on this thread lately.

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## Martin Jonas

Never seen a label like that before!  So what's that: some sort of endorsement deal for the use of Munier's name to promote Fratelli Vinaccia mandolins?  I wasn't aware that Munier had any involvement in luthierie.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Martin:
I have seen a few of these. Actually Munier was a member of Vinaccia family. I believe he was the nephew of Pasquale Vinaccia. He grew up surrounding by excellent mandolins.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

This looks like a nice *Vega Style 3* similar to mine. If it is at all like mine then it could be a good bowlback for someone, sweet sounding and all.

----------


## Schlegel

I agree with you, Jim.  So much so that that I will try to take it home myself, if I can.  We'll see what happens.  I have noted many good comments about those Vegas in the past, and I want to see what one sounds like myself.

----------


## Fliss

Ceccherini  on ebay

Fliss

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## brunello97

I know this has been gone over a few times, but it would clear some things up for me.... were Ceccherini's typically double-topped? Were some models produced with single tops, as an intro model or for other purposes?  I have quite a number of them in my item files, but the camera angle isn't always the best.   Might that be part of the second top peeking out beneath the fingerboard here?

Thanks,

Mick

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## vkioulaphides

Well... _my_ former Ceccherini DID have a double top; others do not. In the case of the particular instrument depicted, what peeks out may well be just a brace. I'm not entirely sure. Nice instrument, though!  :Smile: 

Cheers,

Victor

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## brunello97

A nice looking Stahl bowlback (with Handel tuners) with the obligatory Larson attribution. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123

Looks to be in good shape, and while I'm not doubting the ad copy, the overall design lacks a bit of cohesion typically seen with the L Bros.

Mick

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## Bob A

I'd be willing to assume the Stahl came from the Larsons' shop, though I've not seen one before with Handels. Peghead inlays are a bit graceless though, but the inlays on the board are quite in the Larson spirit. I have a Larson Stahl, very interesting mandolin, almost startlingly loud, both in volume and bling.

I'm surprised no one is bidding on the Ceccherini, though limiting the sale to the UK might be partially responsible. Then too, there's a long time to go yet before the snipers come out to play.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I know this has been gone over a few times, but it would clear some things up for me.... were Ceccherini's typically double-topped? Were some models produced with single tops, as an intro model or for other purposes?  I have quite a number of them in my item files, but the camera angle isn't always the best.   Might that be part of the second top peeking out beneath the fingerboard here?


I've only ever seen one single-topped Ceccherini, and I own it.  It's also the only Ceccherini I've ever seen that has a de Meglio-style string-downholding bar rather than individual hooks.  I don't know whether mine is a particularly early or a particularly cheap example -- all I know is that it's a very nice if plain instrument, and that it sounds nothing like the other Ceccherinis, being notably dark and mellow where most are bright and in-your-face.  All other Ceccherinis I've seen or heard about had both the double top and the hooks.  On those grounds, I would expect the Ebay one to be double topped, and indeed you can see it in the photos.  However, the bit visible beneath the fingerboard is not the double top -- they are on the other side of the soundhole, and look a bit like a somewhat larger Virzi.  The bit Mick is talking about is just a brace.  You can see a tiny bit of the double top in the full-frontal photo, that crescent-shaped lighter bit at the tailpiece-end of the soundhole.

199 Pounds is a good deal, but it's not vastly underpriced as it's not exactly a pristine-looking example.  So, I would expect a few bids but no bidding frenzy.  Some Ceccherinis have indeed gone for less than that, but I thought those sellers were pretty unlucky.

The seller is only a few miles from me, in Rhyl.  By a strange coincidence, the last Ceccherini I bought (for a 50 Pounds Buy-It-Now) and sold (for 279 Pounds after some restoration and setup work) was from Old Colwyn, just up the road from Rhyl.  I'm not in the market for this one, though.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> A nice looking Stahl bowlback (with Handel tuners) with the obligatory Larson attribution. 
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123


A little BS and nice photos goes a long way... of course the seller thinks he is being so smart with _Indian_ rosewood and _Norwegian_ spruce. Still almost $500 and 6 days to go. I predict about $1200.

----------


## brunello97

Two interesting simultaneous conversations.  (Like being at a dinner party.) I'm slowly checking off my wish-list and on it is trading up for a better Italian bowl. Not in the cards for awhile, but it is worth keeping an eye out.  Martin, some guys have the Midas touch.  You and Allen H seem to have the good buyer's sense and timing. 

No skepticism intended viz anyone's instrument, but there does seem to be more Larsons than splinters of the True Cross.  I do like to think of my boat-back coming from their shop. It is too weird to be from anywhere else......

Bob, have you posted (or can you) pictures of your Stahl/Larson?   I have a Stahl bowlback that I rehabbed and am looking to part with.  Nil chance of a Larson attribution, but as you say, it too has an uncommon projection for bowls I have played.    A lot of tuneful umph. A woeful (now repaired) top crack has cast it in a bridesmaid role, unfortunately.  I have a hunch the woods are far more ordinary, rw  from Brazil and the spruce from Michigan, but it could be even more exotic.  Canada even.  

Mick

----------


## Bob A

I don't have photos, though at one time the mandolin did appear on the Hartmann website, and it was purchased from Player's Vintage Instruments with a Larson attribution.

I might possibly be able to persuade my daughter to do some pics, but while she's occasionally indicated she'd assist me with photo stuff, she's never actually come across.

----------


## brunello97

I got Bob Hartman's book out this morning to look through again. This along with Hubert's tome on Washburn and Jim's .jpg files form an outstanding collection of mando history.  I'd love to see another book sort out the L+H/Regal mess. I love to see Jim write a book......

I'll stick with my doubting Thomas persona on the ebay Stahl.  It most closely resembles a Style 5 in Bob's book (not a 6 as hinted.)  Jim, I think the India rw and Norwegian Wood comes straight out of the Stahl  catalog copy.  Bob H suggests that both L+H and LBros made the 5s.   

This read-through did clarify the LBros-Leland connection I was wondering about on another thread.  Hubert implies a tighter line of pedigree than Bob H does, but there is a great range of photos of LBros Lelands in the book.  Mine is far to basic to think it was farmed out to the boys.
Who knows?  Typically I am way off the mark on these things and enjoy getting set straight.  

Can't help but think the LBros must have had a really fun shop to work in.  Really in the spirit of Chicago design at the time and pushing envelopes around.  Kind of why I like the Puglisi mandolins from Catania.   

Mick

----------


## brunello97

I have a old American bowlback which I bought for a pittance on the ebay, and while it is hardly of note, it is a bit curious.  The top is is mess and caved in but I don't think it is something I can't fix. Clearly oversized, it appears to have been long set up with a 15" scale.  Seems kind of short for a mandola, pretty long for a mandolin.   Any thoughts?

Don't ask for a photo as you probably doubt my sanity enough around here.....

thanks,

Mick

----------


## Schlegel

I read a reference on an old thread that claimed early mandolas had shorter scales than they do now.  And also someone saying over 14" you can't get an E string to work.  Quick search gave me a mention of someone's vintage Gibson mandola having a 14 and 7/8 scale.  

Funny you should mention this, because my new (old) bowlback with about a 17" scale arrived today, and it seemed so huge to me, I was about to check how _long_ mandola scales got.  Luckily the top has only the usual lower bout crack, which I think my limited skills are up to.  Perhaps we should start a bowlback mandola thread and see how many are here?

----------


## Bob A

I have a Mozzani bowlback with a huge bowl and a 14" scale; mentioned it here much earlier. Neither fish nor fowl; I have to tune it down a half step or so to get the action right. I was fortunate enough to have on hand a large bowlback case that came with another instrument (that flopped around inside in pitiful fashion) that actually fits the beast. I don't know what they were thinking when they made the mando; it's from around the turn of the century so they were not copying the Gibson scale, certainly.

----------


## brunello97

You know, I've been searching through threads here looking for discussions on scale lengths. There are many discussions trying to suss the zone between mandolas and octaves.  Bob it sounds like you to are in the mandola<  Big Bowl  >mandolin range as well.   What range of strings are you using?

Mr. Schlegel....my big bowl is closer to the 14-7/8 you spoke of viz Gibson.  I can recall Paul Hostetter lamenting the shorter Gibson mandola scale on some threads but couldn't turn them up while searching.  

I've yet to completely wrap my head around the scale length/string diameter/top bracing dynamic. But I'm not suprised that the top on this bowl has given way.  The J76s go .015-.052.  Any thoughts on how those might perform at CGDA over 14-7/8"?   Since I have to either seriously retro the top or make a new one, I have the opportunity to rethink the bracing if necessary.

A bowlback mandola thread is a good idea for collecting discussion.  I will cross post this in the CBOM section to try to scare up some more feedback.  Would a separate bowlback thread be better suited here or over there?

thanks,

Mick

----------


## Bob A

Using Lenzner Consorts on the big beast.

FWIW, while my Gibson mandola doesn't get the kind of use it deserves, it's a nice instrument. I don't know how much stretch I'd care for, all in all. It was the ridiculous and totally unsatisfactory stretches that made me part with a mandocello after it languished unplayed for some time; unplayed, and so far as I'm concerned, unplayable. Though many would differ with that opinion, I suppose.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "...my new (old) bowlback with about a 17" scale arrived today, and it seemed so huge to me, I was about to check how _long_ mandola scales got."


That _must_ be an _octave_-mandola, judging by the scale. What make is it? Jim (G.), isn't your Calace in that same range? If it is strung as octave-mandolin, the scale sounds reasonable IMHO-- obviously, NOT if it is an alto instrument.

Indeed, Bob, mandoloncello IS a troublesome species...  :Confused:  (Yet David W. just aced the CMSA competition playing my Diferencias --no easy piece-- on Le Big One...) 

It's a bit of a conundrum, I'm afraid: a shorter, more manageable scale would make the mandocello _acoustically_ deficient. (Although I trust that Maestro Embergher coaxed some dulcet tones out of his 58-ish cm. 'celli. Calace's stand at 61, I think...) A longer scale would allow for ringing, resonant strings, but make the beast all the harder to tame.  :Frown: 

Add to that the (usual, and disappointing) tubbiness of flatwound strings vs  skin-peeling, blood-exacting round-wound sets that _sound_ better...  a difficult instrument to come to terms with. Yet, as you say, surely opinion differs.

----------


## Schlegel

Victor, it is a Marca Aquila, an American brand that seems to have become Favilla Bros. later.   Overall, it is 30 inches long. Doubling the 12th fret distance, it has a scale length of 17 and 1/8 inches.  Simply appointed, it seems well made; I was surprised how light it was for the size, which I suspect bodes well for the future.  

I had not thought seriously about an OM possibility.  Do you think a scale length progression of approximately 13 to 15 to 17 inches fits the bowlbacks of 100 years ago?  I've only seen mandolins before, so this is new territory for me.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Well... for only a rough, ballpark idea, a scale like 14-15 inches "tells" me that we are speaking of an _alto_ instrument, i.e. one tuned CGDA; a scale of *17* inches, on the contrary, SCREAMS octave-GDAE. 

I am not, however, entirely clear about what you mean by

"Do you think a scale length progression of approximately 13 to 15 to 17 inches fits the bowlbacks of 100 years ago?"

so I will not offer any rash reply before I fully understand you. In terms of what _I_ have in mind-- and I may very well be off from what _you_ are thinking of-- this is not a matter of the instrument's _age_ at all, but a correlation of SCALE and TUNING. 

But you may mean something else...

In any case, it looks like a VERY nice instrument, and I wish you much joy with it, for many years to come.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Schlegel

Sorry to be unclear, I meant progression in scale length as you move to larger instruments/lower tuning:  13" for classical mandolin, 15" for mandola, 17" for OM.    In any event you answered what I _meant_ to ask.  I mentioned the age only because these lengths all seem to be a bit longer on newer (read "later Gibson type") instruments when I check the stats.  

BTW, there is a Bowlback Mandola with 15 hrs. left on auction.....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=350117767952

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## brunello97

I was under the impression that the Favilla Bros. used the Marca Aquila label in their works.  Are you implying that there was a previous maker before the FBros took possession of the label?  That would be very interesting to me as I am a big fan of their work.  Any further information on that would be appreciated.

thanks,

Mick

----------


## Schlegel

IIRC, Marca Aquila was the Favilla Bros.  I don't know of it ever being otherwise...

----------


## brunello97

> Victor, it is a Marca Aquila, an American brand that seems to have become Favilla Bros. later......


Sorry, I think I mis-inferred from your earlier post.

thanks,

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Back to the Larson/Stahl discussion...

Here is a trio of Larson-made bowlbacks from the Hartmann site.

The one on the left resembles the current eBay one (without the Handels).

----------


## brunello97

Nice catch, Jim. Doubting Thomas is less doubtful....Funny thing is that I used that same 3 Larson bowl image as a desktop image for a while.  It didn't burn in.

Mick

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## Schlegel

Well, that recent Vega went for over $600, so I didn't win it.  but I got the "Larson" Stahl as consolation prize!  No one could be more shocked than I, I just threw in a token bid at the last minute!  

...For some reason my wife has just told me I have "too many mandolins".

----------


## margora

Regarding the recent discussion of scale lengths, there is a distinction between US made, flat (or carved) back vs. European made, round-back.  A typical US flat back mandola, intended for alto (viola) tuning, will have a scale length of 15.5-17 inches, approximately whereas an octave will be 20-24 inches.   A bowlback octave will be shorter -- a typical octave bowlback will be 44-45 cm, or 17-18 inches.  I own a Weber mandola with a 17 inch scale that is definitely intended for alto stringing (although I happen to have strung it for use as an octave with the PMO and other ensembles).  The Weber has an excellent sound but it can be difficult to keep it in tune as an octave; consequently I also sometimes use a 20-inch scale octave (made by a builder in Quebec).

----------


## brunello97

Robert, from your experience, what might this relative shortness imply for a US made-for-alto bowlback?

Mick

----------


## margora

"Robert, from your experience, what might this relative shortness imply for a US made-for-alto bowlback?"

If we are talking about an instrument from around the turn of the 20th century I would think it most likely would follow the European pattern, i.e. something around 14.5 to 15 inches.  If it were a modern instrument, it would presumably be made to the client's specifications.  If I were the client, I would probably specify around 38 cm (approximately 15 inches).  But it shouldn't be a big problem, performance wise, if it were a little bigger, say 16 inches.   Sort of like the viola -- there is more variation in scale length than the violin.

Anything under 43cm (around 17 inches) would probably be difficult to string as an octave and keep in tune, IMHO.   You could probably string a 43cm+ bowlback as an alto with the right strings but my guess is that it would be difficult to play.  Personally, I favor ease of playing.

----------


## epicentre

"Of Note".......not sure.

I acquired this bowlback from the "broken bowls" auctions earlier this year.  It was made in Canada, and stamped inside, on the neckblock, it says:
                The
R.S Williams & Sons Co.
                Ltd.
              Artists
Toronto, Canada

Bit of research finds it was made sometime after 1880, as that's when the name was changed from R.S. Williams to & Sons Co.

They were a large maker, pianos, violins, and so forth, with plants throughout Canada, employing several European luthiers.

interesting link;  http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...=U1ARTU0003705


There were no back separations, and only one front crack which I cleated inside and glued.  Leaving well enough alone as it is a nice player.  May have to change the nut at some time.


Now, if I could find out why the pic. posting is not working.........

----------


## brunello97

Very interesting post on Williams e figli.  Do you have some pictures to post of the bowlback?  I bought a few curiosities from Chris myself last summer to fiddle with getting fixed up.    I have been looking for a "Michigan" labeled banjo-mandolin for some time after seeing one cross paths on the ebay.  It was from an un-remembered Toronto maker.   A new front on the GreatLakesRim luthiery front.  Thanks for the interesting post.

Mick

----------


## MANDOLINMYSTER

Hi folks, a few days back there was some discussion about a Waldo mandolin and I just had to have it. Well it came today and its pretty cool. One thing I was surprised to see was the use of three tone bars, each of a different size but all the same length. The bass side being the largest. The mandolin is very light compaired to other bowls I have and the workmanship is excellent. It will need one of the ribs glued along with the neck binding. Another strange thing  is a wedge of rosewood under the fingerboard from the nut to approx the 5th fret. You usually see this further up the neck, say from the 10th fret on. It kinda makes for a low bridge height,not sure if this was a repair or original to the instrument. Anyway I thought I would share that info and after I get it tightened up I'll try to string it up and report on playability and tone.Also does anyone have any further info on this company or maker?? Who was Waldo?? Oh yeah those tuner buttons are very unique too, hand made and most likely one of a kind.

----------


## Jim Garber

Waldo info:
 First: 
1897 Patent issued to Roy Simpson and Walter Kaye. 

Second: 1898 Patent issued to George W. Bostwick, Victor Kraske and Rudolph Lorang of Saginaw, Michigan, also known as the Barrows Music Company.

Not sure what the difference (or the connection) is between these two.

BTW here is another Waldo mandolin, (decapitated) from the Elderly site of yore. 

Paul Ruppa of the Milwaukee Mandolin Orchestra is the expert on these beauties. 

Ironically, tho the patent stated that the top can be thin but reinforced properly to avoid warping, mandy of these are warped between the two soundholes. The one I have has a little bit of that but mine is not (yet) playable, so I can't vouch for the patent claims as to tone. 

I would love to hear how yours sounds and plays, Mike.

----------


## MANDOLINMYSTER

Thanks for the info Jim. I didn't know you had one? I have seen a few over the years but the headstock logo and tuners sold me on this one. The top on mine has a slight irregularity by the treble sound hole(pick-guard area) but nothing that looks alarming.

----------


## Jim Garber

Attached is a Waldo mandocello that Elderly was selling back around 2001.

THen there a a photo of a bunch of Waldophiles via Paul Ruppa. I posted a pic of mine but the board wants you to link to the same picture rather than upload it again, so here it is:

----------


## Richard Walz

Dan Larson just finished this instrument...it is hard to resist : http://www.daniellarson.com/orders/M...n/mandolin.htm

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## Bob A

A charming echo of the baroque peghead on the new Larson; the pearl on the armrest reflecting the pearl on the pickguard is a nice touch as well.

Can't say I care for screwing the massy armrest to the body, however, and the grain of the clasp is a bit boring. I'd have preferred a nice piece of curly maple. Recession economics makes critics of us all.

----------


## Jim Garber

Richard:
 Is that one yours or, at least, designed to your specs?

----------


## slopandhope

I should probably jump in here since the new Larson is in transit to my house at this moment. It was upon Richard Walzs recommendation that I placed an order with Daniel Larson in June 2007. I requested the Standard model and I discussed with Dan the qualities I sought, simple, elegant and curvilinear. Above all, I wanted a sweet, warm, lute-like timbre. You can imagine how excited I am to see her pictures and in a few days, behold the real instrument. 

If Bob As earlier assertion that it takes a five-year drying out and playing in time, before the instrument reaches its maximum, I wont be able to give a full report for five years. I am truly hoping that during that time my playing ability will begin to approach a level worthy of such a fine instrument.  
Judy

----------


## Bob A

Oh, go on and report anyway. No one has ever gotten rich and famous by taking my pronouncements to heart. But I will wager that the tone will improve over time.

The very idea of a NEW bowlback is somewhat frightening, I must admit. (I also admit to owning one, only recently new, but it's Greek. I've had it a few years and yes, it sounds better now). 

I'm of course flattered and embarassed that anyone would look up my old comments, questionable as they are. Take with a grain of salt, and forgive, if you will, my opinions regarding such things as armrests. De gustibus and all that.

----------


## Richard Walz

Whoaaa... the wood used instead of maple is YEW and was the preferred wood of 17th century lutes. Dan has already used this in another classical mandolin as well as several mandolinos and the wood is great acoustically. Judy will not be disappointed and she will not have to wait 5 years for a tonal report. My own experience with historical instruments and various replicas (both from the violin world as well as original vintage instruments) do not support this idea of prolonged seasoning. An instrument will improve if cared for and played well but a good or great instrument will have the 'sound' from the start. There is always a tweaking process (bridge/strings, nut, etc) that can influence the sound and here we're talking about the commitment and skills of the owner/luthier put into practice. I have 2 classical mandolins made by Dan Larson and my current preferred mandolin has indeed improved tonally over the past 2 years but it was pretty good at the beginning too. I guess it is a bit more mellow in tone now but I did fuss with the bridge notches at one point. As for the screwed on armrest, well that doesn't bother me. What I like about Dan's work is that each instrument is different, he allows a lot of artistic freedom and the fact that he builds these instruments without a mold also lend to a lot of character of form. The Embergher model he is working now did require a form or mold but his Vega/RW basic design is free to follow his own inspiration. Please Judy give us a report when you get your instrument. You may consider switching to Dogal or Lenzner (or even Black Diamond, light gauge) strings, unless Dan has made some adjustments in this department.

----------


## Arto

"The Embergher model he is working now did require a form or mold..."

That´s interesting - an Embergher copy by Daniel Larson? Any photos yet? And do you know for whom he is making it?

PS: The photo of Judy´s mandolin cannot be reached from Larson´s website unless you know the whole net address - as far as I understand. Is there somewhere in the net a treasury of his on-order instruments we could drool over?

 :Grin:  Arto

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## Richard Walz

You can see Judy's instrument directly from the link I posted previously. These pictures are not part of the 'official' or public website. The Embergher copy he is making is for me (yes, I'm an instrument addict) but it will have some 'improvements' over the original Embergher, like a slightly wider neck (instead of 22mm, more like 25mm at the nut). I do not have any photos yet of this instrument... my main concern now is locating the fittings (replicas of the Embergher tailpiece and espcially the tuning mechanism).

----------


## Jim Garber

I agree with Richard's assessment of "seasoning" of mandolins... or any other stringed instrument, for that matter. That is why always laugh when people go to long lengths to rig up vibrating mechanisms to break in new instruments.

If a mandolin is good from the beginning and _suits the player_ then there might be some small molecular changes over time, but, for the most part, the mandolin will improve along with the player adapting to that instrument.

Richard: Kurt DeCorte has repro Embergher tailpieces and he should be able to help you or Daniel find suitable tuners as well.

----------


## brunello97

> Whoaaa... the wood used instead of maple is YEW and was the preferred wood of 17th century lutes. ....


Richard, I seem to be channeling Ed McMahon a lot lately: "I did not know that."    Is it the European Yew (taxus baccata) that you mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Yew

Interesting in its relationship to instruments and to English longbow production.  "...and you will beat your longbows into lutes"  would be a nice twist on the phrase.

We have planted numerous asian yews on projects in Tejas; a different thing altogether but for the elegant greenery and berries.  I am always learning something here.  Can't wait to see the Neo-Embergher as well.

thanks,

Mick

----------


## Bob A

I absolutely agree that the player over time adapts to the instrument. In fact the instrument can force the player to modify playing style, assuming the player is at all sensitive to the instrument.

I still hold tightly to my belief that these instruments do change over time. However, the human mind and ear is not so precisely calibrated that we can remember what an instrument might have sounded like over a significant length of time. Subjecting them to a recording process or even frequency spectrum analysis may not catch the subtleties either, though I'm not personally aware of anyone having gone to those lengths.

In the violin world there are opinions so vastly at variance with one another regarding issues such as varnish and ground finishes that lifelong enmities are generated; even so, any amount of blind testing has foundered on the rocks of subjectivity.

I hold firmly to my opinions and hallucinations; they are a comfort to me, without, I hope giving offense to anyone else.

----------


## Richard Walz

This is an intersting subject Bob (et al), and one that has been subject to many experiments over the years. Here are some facts: The last serious blindfold comparison test of Stradivari (2 versus one non-Strad modern instrument by a highly respected contemporary French maker), played by 2 different blindfolded concert artists with a jury of 4 music professionals gave the clear preference to the lone 'non-Strad'. What is interesting is to hear the reports of each person (player/jury) prior to discovering the truth. You can find this story by launching this search inquiry : The Mystery of the Stradivarius. Now, could it be that these same Stradivaris were better before (in generations past)? So much has changed, particularily in the way we setup instruments today as compared tot he past, that it is indeed hard to compare the same instrument (over time) let alone different instruments. One thing is certain, players of the past (now I return to the mandolin) certainly played on the latest creations (good, healthy and satisfying tonally) rather than nurse one that had seen better days. I own a few old mandolins, including my beloved Pettine 'Vega', but I find myself gravitating to my Larson mandolin. I do agree with Bob and think that a musical instrument will tonally mature (some more than others) if good from the beginning and made structurely sound. The player will adapt and encourage what he wants to hear from the instrument as well. But there is also a point when the instrument has simply reached maturity and can only go down hill from there (a bit like a good wine). That is why I retired my Vega, simply to preserve it at its best rather than end up passing on a wreck to the next generation of mandolinists. My Larson mandolins have a long way to go, so that's where I log in my hours (lately it's only been minutes :Frown:   ). 

There are exceptions to the vintage masterpieces that have lots left in them and a long future in front of them, inevitably these instruments are in great shape (Pagannin Guarnerius is a good example).

----------


## Fliss

> I should probably jump in here since the new Larson is in transit to my house at this moment. It was upon Richard Walzs recommendation that I placed an order with Daniel Larson in June 2007. I requested the Standard model and I discussed with Dan the qualities I sought, simple, elegant and curvilinear. Above all, I wanted a sweet, warm, lute-like timbre. You can imagine how excited I am to see her pictures and in a few days, behold the real instrument. ...


Wow, Judy, that is a beautiful mandolin, congratulations and welcome to the Cafe (since I see this is your first post  :Smile:  )  Please do report on your lovely new mando when you have received it and had a chance to get acquainted with it.

Yew is a beautiful wood, I love all the associations it has - I hadn't realised the connection to Voldemort's wand!  

Fliss

----------


## Arto

"I have 2 classical mandolins made by Dan Larson ..."

Richard,
if I remember wright you mentioned in some post years ago that you would like to have mandolins of different tonewoods if you´d "have unlimited financial resources" (who of us wouldn´t?)  :Smile:  Do you have now two classical (modern Neapolitan) mandolins by Larson? With maple and yew back? If so, how do they compare acoustically?

just curious,
Arto

----------


## Richard Walz

Sorry, I meant that I have owned 2 of his classical instruments, I have only one classical mandolin now by Dan and this has the maple back and is based on our own adaption of the Vega model. I had another one previous which has gone to someone else (very nice mandolin as well). I have played several of his mandolins (baroque and one modern) with yew backs and like them every bit as much as an instrument with maple. There are so many variables in the acoustics of a mandolin that it would be hard to say just what the character would be between two other wise indentical instruments, one with yew, one with maple or rosewood backs.

----------


## prosboarder

Hi Guys/Gals,

I'm in a search that I think this forum will definitely help. I'm hoping one of you can identify a resource, or share some thought on a project I'm doing. I am building a Stevie Ray Vaughan "Lenny" Stratocaster replica (Yes, electric guitar and this is where this forum comes in play). The unique thing about this guitar is that it has a mandolin pickguard from circa 1910. I've searched all over eBay and I finally found the inlay design from a mandolin made by Angelo Mannello, so I bought it. The problem now is that I would feel extremely bad destroying a perfectly good mandolin that's around 100 years old (Unless someone honestly tells me here that it's not worth much). Can anyone help me in identifying where I can find another inlay or broken mandolin with this design? 

Please see attached pictures. The one on the left is the guitar I'm replicating and the one on the right is the mandolin I bought. The pickguard is slightly different but not by much.


Thanks so much!!
-Ryan

----------


## brunello97

Ryan,  I've picked up a few bowls from Chris who has been selling off a collection of mandolins he 'inherited' from a friend.  Check out his site:  http://www.brokenbowls.com/

Much of the stock has moved on but you might keep an eye there or contact him directly to see what he has available.  It all was going very cheap.

Good luck!

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Why not just replicate the pickguard for the guitar and leave the mandolin alone. It is not so ornate a design.

----------


## brunello97

J, I love you bro, but this might just be a Texan thing and not so easily understood :Smile:   We're talking about Stevie here.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

All right, all right... with the permission of the other members of the Loyal to Ryan to remove said pickguard from a mandolin in memory of a fallen hero. I am sure SRV played mandolin at one time or another.

----------


## prosboarder

haha you guys are great. Actually I would love to replicate the pickguard! I mean, if I had to destroy the mandolin in the name of Stevie then I will but... :-( 

Quick question. Did they pour shellack around the inlays  back in the day? My girlfriend's father put a tiny bit of demetri alcohol on it and it reacted just like a lot of shellack. It's like a translucent amber and that's what we figured it out to be. I'm going to check out brokenbowls.com right now. Thanks so much!!

I knew this was the right place to find out information and a warm welcome. (Besides the few that are crying over the possibility of destroying  a mandolin) lol

anyone know how much this thing's worth?  I paid $100 inc shipping.

-Ryan

----------


## Schlegel

I think bowlbacks went out of style (except among the most discerning of cognoscenti, of course  :Whistling: ) significantly before real shellac was replaced in any big way.

----------


## Bob A

The guard may be real tortoise; then again it may not. I'm not sure how it would react to alcohol, or how you could get it loose without making a mess of it, or what your options are. You can get sheets of imitation tortoise from places like Stew-Mac, and fake it, if you like, Cutting the pearl is probably a job for a pro - it's not easy to work, and the dust can be irritating.

If your bowlback is playable and sounds nice, I for one would feel badly about destroying it. But if you could get the guard off and mounted on your guitar, and replace the guard on the mando with plastic, you'd have both the guitar you want and a working bowlback. Best of both worlds.

----------


## brunello97

Someone looking to get in on the gf with a nice bowlback could do far worse (and spend far more) than this pleasant looking Luigi Ricca:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Old-Antique-Mand...QQcmdZViewItem

Looks more like a Style 0 from the Ricca catalog. Maybe some top issues, though in the pictures it looks fine.  11 hours to go and at $79.  Maple and RW back (a fine compromise to a silly argument in a forgettable conversation elsewhere here.)

The Ricca catalog makes note of walnut as an option for this bowl. I've seen some bowls that I thought were walnut, but assumed was RW with more washed out color.  Anyone experience with walnut?  (Please, I'm not trying to crank up that whole debate again.... :Wink: )

Mick

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## Arto

Any idea what this might be? Doesn´t look like an original 18th century Neapolitan mandolin by Vinaccia:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Mandolin-by...1%7C240%3A1318

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## Bob A

Walnut is a fine tonewood. I had a 1936 Epiphone archtop guitar that had walnut back and sides - excellent tone. I have a Greek bowlback whose bowl is walnut - again, a fiine sound. 

The Greek instrument's walnut is in shades of dark grey-brown and silver grey. I don't know how they got the color, but it is a handsome msndolin.

----------


## Bob A

The ebay 1769 Vinaccia doesn't look authentic to me - too clean to be 200+ years old, for one thing. Wouldn't be too tough to fake, for a good luthier. Given that it's been around for that long, I'd want to see some documentation of its chain of custody and provenance before I'd consider a purchase. 

The violin world is awash in fakery and fraud; maybe it's our turn?

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## etbarbaric

The 1769 EBay Vinaccia is interesting... but in my view it is no $15K mando. This one has been for sale on the net for years, posted through a couple of Web outlets.  The seller tends to over-value, IMHO. The date is either accurate, or not far off.

Though currently configured for four-course Neapolitan tuning, it was originally built as a six-course Genoese mandolin.  The six hitch pins are still intact, and can be seen in the photos.  You can also tell that the peghead has been whacked off... removing four pegs worth.  The neck has also likely been pared down from its original width.

The Joannes Vinaccio (sic.) label may or may not be legit.  I have heard of other Genoese mandolins that bear similar labels... so there is certainly a possibility.  But still... this poor thing has been much altered from its original form.

Best,

Eric

----------


## Eugene

Regarding the Vinaccia, I have shared such info in great detail with the sellers years ago (Music Treasures in Ontario).  The also have a relatively early Neapolitan mandolin they insist on dating to the mid 17th c. (1665!) and a number of other quirky bits.  They seem pleasant enough in correspondence, but definitely are not mandolin folk and are rather obstinate in their occasionally erroneous assessments.

In the distant past, they would overprice some things, and underprice others.  Anonymous pieces that looked decent, they tended to way overprice, and pieces by known makers with whom they weren't familiar tended to sell too low.  They have corrected that flaw since and tend to sell a bit too high for my tastes on all counts.

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## etbarbaric

Hi Eugene,

We certainly agree! That 1665 Neapolitan claim is just silly. Even if the label says so, an honorable dealer would caveat the information in their description.  I hope some unsuspecting client doesn't fall for this stuff...

Eric

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## Eugene

The label of the Lippi mandolin in question is not at all clear.  I suspect the vaguely loopy thing they are translating as the 600 digit is actually a 7.  The 5 also looks as much like an 8 as a 5 to me.  That said, 1768 would seem a more realistic interpretation.

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## brunello97

Happy Thanksgiving a todos mis amigos in the Loyal Order of the Bowl.  Despite all the talk of maple, I do enjoy the dark meat.   Now, what type of wine goes with roast fluted bowl?

Have a great holiday, y'all.

Mick

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## johnl

Here's an old Stathopoulo bowlback, courtesy of the Epiphone blog (they throw a bone out to the vintage Epi fans every now and again). They say it's from 1904 and is the oldest piece in their collection.

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## Jim Garber

That Stathopoulo mandolin is a beauty. Bernunzio has one for sale with a warped neck and some top wear.

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## vkioulaphides

Fascinating. Years ago, mando-rummaging in Athens, I came across an older luthier in the district next to the (old) Academy who had known Stathopoulos Sr personally as a young man. I had NO idea that the "Epi" prefix in the brand name was an abbreviation for Epam(e)inondas, the Greek first name (after the legendary chief-general of ancient Thebes). Very, very interesting...

Nice looking bowl; too bad the one at Bernunzio's is impaired.

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## johnl

The Stathopoulo label 'A. Stathopoulo, manufacturer-repairer of all kinds of musical instruments' was apparently no idle boast. I have a clarinet with an 'A. Stathopoulo - New York' stamp on the bell, and there's this accordian on that auction site:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...:B:WNA:US:1123

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## trebleclef528

Embergher on Germany ebay start 1 Euro no reserve... needs a bit of work. Ebay ref 110321423593 http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-Italien...QQcmdZViewItem

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## trebleclef528

Yet another Embergher on Germany ebay http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-Luigi-E...QQcmdZViewItem

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## Jim Garber

Just a heads up. Richard is selling his Daniel Larson mandolin (one of his two) in the classifieds.

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## vkioulaphides

The "handy-man special" Embergher, _still_ cheap, with seconds to go; the high-Startpreis one, no bidders yet. Hmmm...

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## Jim Garber

Here's an entertaining one: a beat up De Santis mandolin for only $24,000.

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## vkioulaphides

At least you can _inch your way up_ to that, starting at a modest $23,999.99  :Laughing: 

Cheers,

Victor

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## Jim Garber

I was thinking of making an offer of $23,999.98.  :Smile:

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## vkioulaphides

Aw, Jim... what a Scrooge you can be! There you go again, trying to low-ball a well-meaning, _realistic_ eBay seller. 

*tsk, tsk*

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## Richard Walz

Just wait until the last minute of frantic bidding... the seller forgot to mention that the mandolin is stuffed with diamonds.

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## brunello97

Pretty great looking case. Though I'm not sure it is worth the $23,000 mark-up.

Mick

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## Arto

Nice Italian mandolin at eBay Germany, beautiful bowl! Is the maker (Giuseppe de Bernardi) familiar to any of you?

http://cgi.ebay.de/Sehr-feine-neapol...1%7C240%3A1318

And a good-looking Vega. Ever heard of "F. S. Morrow Special"?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Vega-Man...3A1%7C294%3A50

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## brunello97

Yes, Arto, I also like the looks of the Bernardi. It appears to be in very good playable condition.  I like the very bold, graphic quality of the MOP inlay on the top. I have see this feature on number of Italian mandolins and it is very pleasing to me.

I have a bid in on the Vega myself and will keep an eye on the bidding.  The bridge looks very Italian to me.  Does it appear to be a replacement or did Vega use these on particular models as well?

Mick

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## Richard Walz

That is the normal mandolin bridge design of the Vega's of that time.

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## Martin Jonas

It may well be the normal bridge design, but it's on the wrong side of the cant for a Vega.

Martin

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## brunello97

Richard, you are so right (and Martin, too, of course.) Now at home, I can check my image files.  Here is a Vega Pettine artist model with what appears to be a compensated bone saddle.  Very nice.

Mick

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## Richard Walz

That is Pettine's own mandolin (Vega, of course) that did indeed have a slightly different bridge design (with compensation). I don't believe the compensation was entirely successful.The bridge also slanted (high to low) like you see on Roman (alla Embergher) mandolins.  The instrument was a beauty but curiousily had shorter fingerboard than my "Pettine Special", perhaps the fingerboard had been changed once, adding the slant at the same time (inspired by Embergher?).  This mandolin has a very fine voice and I can understand why Pettine preferred it to other instruments.

Martin is right about the positioning of the bridge, it is on the wrong side. The mandolin that is up for grabs should have potential as a fine instrument. If I had it (or needed another one), I might be tempted to put an extended fingerboard on it (copied from a higher end model). Even if it had to be opened and the braces reglued, I have never played a Vega (any grade model) that didn't produce a beautiful sound.

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## Jim Garber

That Morrow Special, with the exception of the engraved tuner plate, looks just like my style 3. I am not at home with access to my library or my mandolin so I am not sure if it is exactly like it, but if my memory serves, it looks very close.

Yes, that is the same bridge as I have on my Vega. It could use a compensated bridge tho. I would love to see what Pettine used to compensate his.

----------


## brunello97

Richard, what do you mean when you say 'the compensation was not entirely successful'?

I've been making a set of compensated bridges for a range of my mandolins and it has been taking a lot of tweaking around.  None of them have been entirely successful so far, but are getting closer.  I made a compensated bone saddle for a mandola I have and that was indeed a bit of fussing.

thanks.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Richard:
Didn't all of the Pettine model mandolins have fleur-de-lis inlays on the fretboard? Maybe Pettine's did have the fretboard replaced?

----------


## Richard Walz

I really do think that the fretboard was replaced, according to the Vega catalogue and other examples that I know of, there should be 27 frets, not just 24. This is also the only Vega I've seen with a pronounced slanted fingerboard (and bridge). Vega used 2 different designs (as far as I know) for the bridge, the one on the Morrow Vega being the more common. As for compensation, I have an Embergher at home now (not mine) which has an original Embergher compensated bridge. I would love to find a set of strings that intonate correctly all the way up the scale with such a bridge. Certainly Lenzner and Thomastik don't playi correctly with this bridge. The bridge saddles on my Larson mandolin have very slight (self-made) compensation for the G string, with a tiny bit for the A... that's all I need to have the strings in tune all the way up.

----------


## Jim Garber

Ralf Leenen has been experimenting with making his own custom-wound strings for that very purpose. You might check with him on how he is doing that.

----------


## Jim Garber

How strange... after that Morrow Vega shows up, then there is this A. C. Moore model. I have a feeling that Vega might have charged a little more to have your name engraved on the tuner plate of standard models. At first I thought it was a joke since there is a chain of craft stores by that name.

----------


## brunello97

Jim, I saw (and bid) on this one as well.  I finally got a low-end Vega bowl that I have been working on for awhile up and running.  I'm with Richard and you.  They did good work.  I wonder if the engraving could have been customized for the buyer.  Or else a lot more 'artists' out there-maybe teachers or others down on the food-chain that served as manufacturer's reps the way Gibson and Lyon and Healy did.

Or else maybe 'Air Mandolin' was a popular parlor game back then and we've just never heard anything about it.

Mick

----------


## Schlegel

That de Santis is back, and as it didn't sell last time he's slashed the price to only $21,999.99.   It's gonna be hard to resist at that price!  :Whistling:

----------


## Bob A

In case anyone missed the thread, here's more photos of the Labraid 5bis.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=46521

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## Jim Garber

Did any of you members of the Loyal Order of the Bowl win this auction for this de luccia mandolin?

I had half a mind to go for it, but then realized that I had only half a mind to begin with.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Not one, not two, but _three_ modern reproductions of baroque mandolinos for sale here.  I don't think I've heard of the maker, Smyskewich.  Two of these are six-course, the third is four-course (if I understand the descriptions correctly).

Interesting reason for sale: "_I am selling these in order to buy a Pedal Steel Guitar so that I can study a Phd in Country Music in America._"

If they are all that their are said to be, that looks like a good price for the entire lot.

Martin

----------


## etbarbaric

Who knew they offered a PhD. in Country Music... !?!  Don't you just have to loose your spouse... your dog... your truck.... I don't think there are any scholastic shortcuts.

(no disrespect to Country Music, of course)

:-)

----------


## Martin Jonas

Well, interestingly a search for the name of the maker, "Smyskewich", gives only one hit, this one.  Presumably, this is an earlier attempt by the same seller to sell these mandolins at a higher price, about two years ago.  Back then, the reason for sale was that he needed a harpsichord to open a keyboard school.  So, does anybody know this maker?  I suspect the seller has misspelled his name and it is actually either Eugene Smishkewych  or Wolodymyr J. Smishkewych from the University of Indiana.  Peculiar that there seem to be two luthiers of this name making period string instrument reproductions, but as both have are linked to the University of Indiana I presume they are either brothers or the same person going by two first names.

Martin

Edit: Looking at Eugene's CV, I presume they are two different but related people -- he lists Wolodymyr as one of his referees.  I also see that Eugene has indeed built these three instruments, as they are listed on the CV.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "Who knew they offered a PhD. in Country Music..."


FY(all's)I, a Ph.D. C.Mus. degree involves delving in and mastering the intricacies of _both_ kinds of song, namely the fast one in 2/4 AND the slow one in 3/4.  :Laughing: 

Cheers,

Victor

P.S. I lived in Nashville, played (backup) for country music, and have official dispensation from the Highest Authorities to say stuff like that.  :Wink:

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a 1919 Martin 6A with some old repairs.

----------


## brunello97

A lot to wade through in the Martin ad, Jim, describing the curious solution to the the headstock repair.  Lovely  instrument, though I'm not exactly thrilled with the resultant look.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Yeah, too bad... maybe it will go for close to the starting bid to a deserving soul among us who can correct that oddball repair.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

I  've just bought the stathopoulo mandolin from Bernuzio.(Stathopoulo back to it's homeland Sparta Greece).I have read that a Stathopoulo mandolin is in the Stearns Collection at the university of Michigan. Does anyone have a picture of it?

----------


## vkioulaphides

ipt, are you implying that you are _in_, or taking the mandolin _to_ Sparta? That would be quite the mando-repatriation! In any case, Stathopoulo's instruments are very fine, indeed, and I congratulate you on your recent acquisition.

If I may say so... με γεια!

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

There is a Stathopoulo mandolin pictured on the Epiphone blog.

Ipt, is this you on that Epiphone blog?:



> Γιάννης Τ   January 11, 2009 at 10:06 am
> 
> Anastasios Stathopoulo was from Sparta Greece (Magoula, a village exactly were the ancient Sparta was). This summer, here in Sparta we are organizing a congress about A.Stathopoulo and his contribution to the 20th century luthiere. There will be an exhibition of many Stathopoulo instruments.

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## Jim Garber

At the National Music Museum in South Dakota is a SStathopoulo bouzouki.

Unfortunately, it looks like this one had all its hardware changed and converted to an 8 string. Those are 1950 tuners.

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Dear Jim and Victor 
Actually i live in Magoula Sparta were Stathopoulo was from.
There are many Stathopoulo Bouzoukis here in Greece,but i have never found a mandolin.
I have the mandolin in my hands right now. Its not labelled ,but is for sure Stathopoulo.It had some bad repairs through the years but i will fix it.
This summer we are organizing a congress about stathopoulo and Mediterranean lutherie generally (I am member in a non profit cultural organization based in Sparta who is focused in music and lutherie).I will inform you about the date.
Greetings from sunny Sparta!
Giannis

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Not one, not two, but _three_ modern reproductions of baroque mandolinos for sale here.  I don't think I've heard of the maker, Smyskewich.  Two of these are six-course, the third is four-course (if I understand the descriptions correctly).
> 
> Interesting reason for sale: "_I am selling these in order to buy a Pedal Steel Guitar so that I can study a Phd in Country Music in America._"
> 
> If they are all that their are said to be, that looks like a good price for the entire lot.


This seller is really desparate to sell: now relisted and dropped by another 900 Pounds.

That's now around $1000 each -- I don't know anything about the quality, and from looking into the maker's CV it seems he was still a lutherie student at the time, but these prices are fairly silly for a one-off bespoke period reproduction.

I might have to consider making him an offer on the four-course instrument...

Martin

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

interesting bowl on the Stathopoulo mandolin

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## vkioulaphides

Interesting, indeed!

Incidentally, I passed through Magoula in the summer of 1978, as a highschool buddy and I rode a (rather rickety  :Wink: )  motorcycle all along the periphery of the Peloponnese (counter-clockwise), stopping for lunch in Magoula on our way to Monemvasia, where we spent that night.

Unforgettable, _magical_ places, all of them... As Solomos wrote, echoing Ugo Foscolo, "Κλείσε στην καρδιά σου την Ελλάδα και θα αισθανθής κάθε είδους μεγαλείο..." (He actually wrote it first in Italian _himself_, while a student, I think, as "_Chiudi nel tuo cuore... e sentirai ogni forma di grandezza... e sarai felice._") I'm sure he had places like those in mind...

I hope Stathopoulo's mandolin feels at home.  :Smile: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Victor
Magoula comes from: τόπος μαγικός= magus locus =magical place.

I hope we see you again soon (we have a beautifull open theater)!
Congratulations for your work!

----------


## brunello97

Here is an eyecatching bowlback under the label of one Albin Ludwig Paulus from Markneukirchen.  Has Herr Paulus appeared in the ranks before?  He is making a strong debut for me here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Beautiful-vintag...3A2%7C294%3A50

I enjoy the red-w-mop rosette and even like the fussy strikeplate.  It looks like a very nicely made mandolin.

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

I haven't come across him, but I note that the label says that Herr Paulus was the court luthier by appointment to His Majesty the King of Saxony (Markneukirchen is in Saxony).  I don't know the appointment policy of the royal Saxon court, but assuming that there was only one court luthier, he presumably earned that title against some pretty strong competition from all those other Markneukirchen luthiers, and that suggests that at least he aimed fairly high (whether he reached there, who knows).

Edit: From a quick Google search, there is some biographical data out there, and several of his violins for sale at prices of $5000 and above.  There is also a bit of info here (in German) about the significance of the "court luthier" title.  In brief: probably given as an accolade at the discretion of the court to particularly high-quality craftsmen, possibly against payment of a fee, but not implying that the luthier actually made any instruments for the royal family.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

There is a Paulus family of _bow_-makers currently active in Markneukirchen-- incidentally, THE central spot of German lutherie, from all I can tell. 

During the _dubiously_ "good" years of the DDR, there were all sorts of instrumental competitions held there. Invariably, American contestants and/or adjudicators would customarily return with their suitcases stuffed with (more often than not) EXCELLENT bows, all bought at OUTRAGEOUSLY low prices.

I did, in fact, try out a few Paulus bows. They struck me as... *ahem*... rather _spineless_, but that of of course may not be indicative of the entire output of the family firm, less yet on the myriad other luthiers of Markneukirchen. Some others I know of, for example, were true masters of their craft. I play a 1904 (then prototype) Adolf Schuster, whose great-grandsons still run the family business, and provide e.g. the bass-section of Berlin Phil with their workhorse-bows routinely. NO superlative is good enough to describe the quality of at least _some_ Neukirchen products.

Martin, I am also told that, in said DDR-era, the town was abysmally drab-- something not _quite_ hard to imagine. I hope and trust it has improved since...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

From my violin researches I've learned that Markneukirchen was a central collecting point for home-shop violins since the nineteenth century at least. It also housed factories dedicated to manufacturing of musical instruments, and is the home source for at least two million Stradivari violins. 

As Victor noted, they run the gamut from steam-pressed factory dreck to the finest instruments Germany has produced. 

I think the bowlback in question is a handsome instrument in what appears to be good condition. the top wood looks to be of quality, and the scalloped ribs are frequently indicative of a superior instrument.

----------


## Bob A

The Paulus bowlback sold for $515. Seems on the low side. Anyone here score?

----------


## Jim Garber

Hard to say that $515 is low for a German-made bowlback, even higher-end. if it were Italian. I bet you can double that price. Similar things happen with violins.

----------


## Bob A

FWIW, Henly has this to say about Ernst August Paulus: "Born at Wohlhausen, 1888. Worked at Markneukirchen, 1920."  There was an August Paulus born in 1851, who made violins in Dresden.

Delightfully enough, I stumbled on Antonio Pasta, a Brescian maker working from 1700-1730, whose instruments are very highly thought of. I myself can only afford his tastier namesake. Pity he wasn't named Alfredo.

It's somewhat surprising that there are not more fake Italian labels in mandolins; the violin world is awash in fraud. But I guess there's no real money in mandolins, at least relatively speaking.

----------


## Bob A

Dang, just goes to show what happens when you don't bother to read. There's a bunch of Pauluses in Henley's book, and somehow I fixated on August.

Anyway, here's Albin Ludwig's entry: "Born 1866. Pupil of Doelling. Established at Markneukirchen, 1890. Assisted by son Kurt. Splendid Cremonese models in the category of "commercial". Oil varnish."

Henley doesn't mention any other instruments made by the man. There are a dozen Pauluses mentioned all told; Adolf P, born in Markneukirchen in 1874, is noted as making guitars and similar instrument, and was known for experiments in violin construction. 

The Germans are slighted in the violin marketplace, at least in terms of prices realised, which one can take as somewhat insulting, or else to the bank as a source of bargain-priced instruments with excellent playing characteristics. As to mandolins, I only have one German bowlback, the Konrad Woelki signature model, and it seems to me that there is a difference between it and the various Italian instruments, in sound and construction. Unfair to extrapolate from a single example, so I won't.

----------


## ollaimh

i have a bouzouki like the one jim garber posted except the sound hole has a dark wood rosette that is more ornate. mine was fallinmg apart when i saw it in a junk store window so i bought it(for $90)and i have had it  repaired several times and now it is my main instrument. i love the stathopoulo sound and the shorter scale is much easier to paly for fast tunes than a standard greek bouzouki. i bought another on ebay for $300. iy ws in terrible shape but i loved the first one so much i am willing to spend a grand on repairs. i strung the first on with eight strings in four courses as it has eight machine heads, but i have since learned they used mandolin equipment but meant these to be strung with six strings and three courses so i may get the new one done that way.

i am a real fan of anastasioa stathopoulo. these mandolins look  fabolous as well. he was areal artist and a part of greek and american history.

i saw a posting that there is to be a festivasl in has honor in sparta this summer. please tell me about that if anyone knows. i was in greece last year and i had a great time--and loved the music. especially cretean music. waht a great country to visit. the ruins are breathtaking, the scenery is spectacular and the people are kind generous and fun. and i was swiming in the lybian sea in december--and i'm canadian!!!!

i am now looking for a laouto. ther was one on ebay but it got pulled so i missed it. it was a ststhopoulo as well but from 1921 so it must have been by his son epiminondas. a funny name for a spartan. epiminomdas of thebes was the general who ended the spartan hegemony in ancient greece.

so pleas some information on the festival .i might go.i'd love to see many of his instruments and i might bring one with me. i play celtic music but greeks didn't seem to mind my playing gigs and reels on their national instrument. in fact in crete they seemed absolutely ammused by celtic instest in their music.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

I have send you a private message about the Festival.
Later i will post in the forum more informations

----------


## vkioulaphides

In fact, ollaimh, one of the best-known players of the Cretan lyra is an Irishman or Scot-- the name escapes me. Despite the fact that folk music is by definition nation-specific, I, too, have found that people from ALL around the world take pleasure and delight in _other_ people's folk music. 

If only one could expound upon this goodwill globally, and in other matters, too...

I would LOVE to see a laouto by Stathopoulo! You say that the one listed on eBay has been withdrawn but, if such a thing reappears, please post it here. As far as I'm concerned, that's mando-related enough.  :Wink: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

You mean Ross Daly.He has a web site www.rossdalymusic.com.
He plays ethnic  and also traditional cretan music.I will post pictures of mine stathopoulo lute.

----------


## vkioulaphides

You are right! As final proof of the phenomenon of _osmosis_, Ross even LOOKS Cretan!  :Wink:  

... and, if you have had a chance of hearing him speak --in fluent Greek!-- you surely know that he speaks it with a WONDERFUL regional accent. Τσ' ήρτα' οι λυράααρηδες τσ' επαίξανε πορράαααα...

My grandmaternal lineage goes back to Rhethymno; clan Vardakis-- another place on my to-do list, by way of vacation travels. The _serious risk_, however, in such a visit is that I may return home with... more instruments!  :Laughing: 

Cheers,

Victor

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

More istruments for sure!!! :Smile:

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Demetrios Mourtzinos

Here is a mandolin from  the greatest greek maker.He was born in Aegina probably at 1870? and died in Athens at 1932.
This mandolin (1902)has an ebony bowl, and the decoration istortoise shell, silver and mother of pearl.A real piece of art.Needs restoration

----------


## vkioulaphides

I am familiar with the legacy and reputation of Mourtzinos but... are you sure that the _bowl_ is made of ebony? I had always been told that ebony is simply too hard a wood to bend on the heating-iron. (That, of course, excludes baglamades/tzourades whose bowl is _carved_, and therefore IS made occasionally from ebony-blocks.) Curious...

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Ebony is hard to bend ,but this one is made of ebony, as many mourtzinos and kopeliades lutes(ebony and flamed maple).Also zozef a famous bouzouki maker used in his top instruments. Tzouras and baglamas are usually made (carved) from mulberry tree walnut or maple,although I have seen an ebony baglama. The less expensive instruments are made from soft woods.
(Sorry for my bad english)

----------


## vkioulaphides

Your English is not bad at all! 

Indeed, Kopeliades was another top-notch Greek luthier of yesteryear, and some of his instruments have ended up in museums. Some are featured in Anogianakis' beautifully illustrated book, which I suspect you have in your library, as I do in mine.  :Wink: 

I am also familiar with some bouzoukis from the shop of Zozef (Terzivassian), but not the ebony-bowled one you mention. You are absolutely right about walnut baglamades being common (I have one, in fact  :Wink: ) Sotirios Bras (among others) does make some ebony-bowled ones, as his "higher end" instruments. You are also right: the _really_ cheap baglamades sold at tourist-traps in Monastiraki seem like they're made of... cork!  :Laughing: 

So... bendable ebony. You learn something every day...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Giannis: Your English is just fine. No need to apologize. Is that beautiful mandolin yours? Will you restore it? What is that white stuff in the front? Tape residue?

It looks like Mourtzinos made that mandolin according to neapolitan methods of construction as opposed to what I have heard are the Greek methods. Interesting. The photos do look like rosewood for the bowl, but perhaps the photos are deceiving. I am sure that ebony can be used if thinned properly.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Unfortunatelly is not mine.It belongs to a friend who is not interest to restore it right now.The white marks are from a tape,you are right.
This is one of the two ebony mandolins that Mourtzinos made.Is french polished (about a century ago)and that actually doesn't help to recognize the ebony.
Mourtzinos also made a mandolin with tortoise shell body,like embergher i think.He had in front of his store and people came by to see it.(I have read that in a 1907 newspaper)

----------


## Jim Garber

victor and Giannis: What is this book by Anogianakis?

----------


## vkioulaphides

> victor and Giannis: What is this book by Anogianakis?


Well, Jim... this question calls for a visit to East 81st Street.  :Wink: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

I will be right over.  :Smile:

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Here are two other mandolins.The first one is Mourtzinos (1908) plain rosewood model.The other one is Ioannis G.Stathopoulos (1907) who probably was Anastasios cousin.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

> so pleas some information on the festival .i might go.i'd love to see many of his instruments and i might bring one with me. .


If you come you will see many stathopoulo instruments,but is more possible to sell yours,than to buy one of them.Greek musicians love them

----------


## nk70

hi,
I live in Greece,Athens and I've found this old Washburn from a friend.He is not musician and wants to sell it.I'm interested to know which is the age and the value of this instrument.There is a Washburn label inside writing A-9590.

As u can see it is very well decorated and i suppose it was an expensive model of washburn.The mandolin needs some fretwork..but it's in a good condition..

there are also missing some pieces of decoration inlay around the top(sorry for my english).Searching in this forum i guess it is a model 1125 but the back is more than 50 ribs as u can see in the pics.
.At this time the mandolin needs restoration so i cannot have a specific idea about the sound.Does it worth restoration or it's most a piece for collectors?

----------


## Bob A

As I mentioned in the other thread that you posted about this instrument, it depends.

In today's market you can't get  much money for it, especially if the neck is broken. (It looks like it has a major fracture, in the picture ib the other thread). But if you want a pretty old mandolin, and can get it professionally repaired for a decent price, it might be worth it to YOU. 

This was an expensive instrument at one time, but its day has passed. Trouble is, it's too nice to throw away, and not desireable enough to risk too expensive a restoration.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Beautifull piece.Go for it.

----------


## nk70

3500 euros...!!!! very expensive to me.....
i'm afraid it will stay a family antique for ever.....

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Πες του να σοβαρευτεί λιγάκι!
Too much money

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## nk70

Συμφωνώ... μάλλον θα μεινει στη ντουλάπα του για παντα....δυστυχώς....!!!!
I guess it will remain just a family antique forever.......

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## vkioulaphides

Yes, that is _exactly_ the kind of instrument that belongs in... το χρονοντούλαπο της ιστορίας --for all non-Greeks, an expression from Greek politics that is quite impossible to translate: the "time-closet of History". 

3500 euros, indeed!  :Mad:

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## Jim Garber

It may be a model 1125 but it almost goes over that very ornate model, so I would say it is probably a custom or presentation instrument. in that case, it is worth more as an artifact than a playable instrument. Plus those pearl fretboards I hear are a bear to deal with in terms of fretwork.

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

THere is another Italian Bowlback (1898)that came to my workshop for restoration yesterday.It's in pretty bad condition but the guy who has it wants to repair it.
I will post more pictures when i finish restoration.

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## Jake Wildwood

Ugh, brutal on the repair job -- those are the kind of jobs I simply dissuade people from when they come to me with one like that.

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## vkioulaphides

Indeed. Even resurrection has its limits...

St. Victor the Skeptic

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## brunello97

Calling Dave Hyndes........This job almost appears to small for him :-)

Mick

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Well its a difficult task,but i have done something similar berofe.
We will see which point restoration can reach.
Is a challenge. :Smile:

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## nk70

hi Jim 
 i've seen in one of your posts an old catalog of washburn models... do u have the one for 1125?do u know which was the production year of this model(1125)..?it might help me to find the age of this mandolin.. you are right about pearl fretboards but here in Greece there are some luthiers very experienced in this kind of fretwork and could repair it in a nice way.
     thank you
        Nikos

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## vkioulaphides

Indeed, (top-of-the-line) Greek bouzoukis often have pearly fingerboards, and consequently Greek luthiers would have no great problems doing fret-work on them.

The stumbling-block, however, continues to be the outrageous, astronomical asking-price.  :Mad:  If you _already_ owned the instrument --or, of course, if the price were 10-15% of what it is-- THEN you could get into the whole question of a quality, professional restoration.

Has the seller, so to speak... seen the light? Does HE know anything about the pricing of vintage bowlbacks? I doubt it...

Best of luck, anyway.

Καλό Σαββατοκύριακο.

Victor

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## nk70

tommorow i'll visit the luthier with the owner of the mandolin...talking to the phone he told me it wouldn't be a big trouble for him to repair a pearl fretboard...he has already constructed some bouzoukis copies of G.Zambeta's bouzouki (Zozef)... he  has also repaired many old bouzoukis,mandolins and lutes... i agree the problem is the price.......i'll try to lower the price tommorow...
           καλό Σαββατοκύριακο και σε σένα
                               Nikos

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## Jim Garber

Here is a catalog page from my 1912 L&H catalog for the model 1125. As you can see it is ornate but the one you picture is different, esp around the pickguard. I would love to see some clearer digital pics than the ones you posted, Nikos. if you like, you can send them directly to me.

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## nk70

thank you Jim...you are right about the pickguard... there are also more than 42 ribs in that mandolin(i think almost 60)
 i went to the luthier with the owner of the mandolin...it seems to need some work with missing inlay around the top but the difficult thing is the fretboard... the luthier asked almost 1000 euros for a complete and detailied restoration...!!!!! the owner seems that he would sell it less than 3500... i guess paying him 2000 cash it would be ok for him but still expensive enough for me...
 the luthier took higher resolution pics so one of the next days i'll get them and send to you...
  i really thank you for your interest and all the useful information 
   Nikos

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## Jim Garber

Sort of interesting older mandolin in funky condition. Not sure what to make of it. It doesn't look like an early 19th century European one... or does it?

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## brunello97

Wow.  Whoever owned this must have been a lightening fast player for the neck to melt down like that.  I thought all the cracks about baling wire strings were just jokes. Apparently not.  Nice to think of it as a home-made mandolin.

I like the 'coffin style' case.  

Mick

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## Bob A

It seems to have some interesting features. The pickguard looks old-fashioned, and of course the friction pegs, and the ivory? bone? endpin. What sells me that it's not homemade is the interesting skirt, which speaks to a certain level of craftsmanship. Some sort of mid-19th centansitional item, would be my guess from a cursory examination of postage-stamp sized photos.

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## Bob A

A 1982 Calace from Wm Petit in france. !6 hrs to go, now at 500 Euros.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Mandoline-Calace...3A1%7C294%3A50

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

> Ugh, brutal on the repair job -- those are the kind of jobs I simply dissuade people from when they come to me with one like that.


Check this restoration.Excellent work.
http://sinierderidder.free.fr/gb/maingb.html

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## Jim Garber

> Check this restoration.Excellent work.
> http://sinierderidder.free.fr/gb/maingb.html


You mean this Embergher restoration?

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Yes .My mistake.

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

The Stearns collection Stathopoulo Mandolin(1912)

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## Jim Garber

> Yes .My mistake.


No, no mistake... the site is just set up in frames and the restoration page is in it sown frame. I just linked directly to that frame.

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## vkioulaphides

While Spartan and not Ionian, Stathopoulos managed to get a tasteful, geometric meander on the purfling... GLORIOUS!

Cheers,

Victor

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

It's beautifull.I am happy that i have it's older brother. :Smile:

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## Bob A

If I weren't both broke and awash in bowlbacks, I'd jump on this one in the cafe classifieds.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/...uery=retrieval

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## vkioulaphides

Pretty, indeed... My excuse is my abject lack of _time_ these days. Curiously --thankfully?-- I have had TONS of (bass-playing) work lately, plus I do have this annoying habit of sitting down to scribble round, little notes on five-lined paper.

I will pass although, like Bob, I find this morsel _most_ delicious.

Cheers,

Victor

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## brunello97

'...awash in bowlbacks' is a great line, Bob, and an enviable position.  I've been scurrying about all winter trying to keep everything hydrated.  I thought Central Texas was dry......

Anyhow, the Maratea looks nice, but the "lowish, playable" action sounds muy sketchioso.  I've heard that one before viz Italian bowls.  Sometimes I wonder if the catchall 'overstrung' is really the applicable reason so many of these necks go out.  I've seen Embergher and Vinaccia bracing that looks as if the builders anticipated problems and improved the design accordingly.  Does this quality control hold 75 years later, or were they just better cared for mandolins, due to their initial value?  

I may be a bit warped here, but is the slightly stouter construction of the Great Lakes Rim bowlbacks a reason for their marginally better (purely anecdotally speaking) neck survival rate?  Would the typical use of mahogany in Chicago/PA/Boston-rather than veneered softwoods in Italia-offer some benefits?

Is having been kept in a case a better predictor of neck viability than the oft posited stringing errors?   (Not doubting that many bowlbacks were overstrung, but wondering about the ultimate contribution of neck/bracing design and ultimate longevity.)

I've had the bowls back out this winter after a delightful and leisurely finger stretching bliss with the products of Western Michigan.  BB/FB.  I swing both ways.  Body and Soul.

Mick

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## Bob A

My experience with Italian bowls is that they are in general rather more lightly-built than their US counterparts, which contributes to their particular sound. I have a couple with some problems; a bit of buzzing, a poor setup, a "restored" instrument the restoration of which seemed to be a thick coat of varnish applied with a paintbrush. On many the necks are of a softwood with a laminated veneer of rosewood. Of course the paper-thin fretboards contribute only a little to the integrity of the neck. (BTW, my 1922 Calace is free from most of these problems, being remarkably stoutly-built. It's the only example I've held, so it's best not to infer too much).

That said, and given the limitations inherent in 100 year old instruments, (somewhat wavy bellies, somewhat worn frets, bridges/saddles in need of adjustment, the odd rib separation), I find them for the most part playable, some eminently so. 

My remaining US instruments comprise a Larson Stahl, an early Martin 6 in need of restoration, and a Vega Pettine Special. No problems with the two at present, though both required professional attention when first received. (Braces glued, tuner button work, a couple top cracks and a spot of french polishing). They are, as you noted, more robustly constructed than their Mediterranean counterparts, and have the indescribable (by me, at any rate) US tone. Maybe more inclined to the fundamentals, not so much in the way of high partials? Strong players, with surprising power. 

I've been fortunate to have missed out on buying into bowlback neck problems, it would seem. Though the design, with a soundhole in a place carefully judged to produce a corresponding sinking of the neck into the body of the instrument, makes me wonder if the early Neapolitan makers were not the first to utilise the concept of planned obsolescence. The f-holes of the Waldo make a lot of sense structurally, taking wood away from areas of low stress. (Disclaimer: I have no Waldo, not have I been bribed by the manufacturer).

I do run on. And sympathise with humidification worries: my huge Sears unit gave up the ghost just before my boiler ceased to function; took a week to get regular heat returned, and I have a small Vornado trying to keep the RH in the neighborhood of 33%.  I breathe into each instrument as I pick it up and pack it away, and I am careful to eat fresh garlic daily to make them feel at home in this process, a sort of constant struggle to re-animate, the breath of life for a mandolin.

----------


## vkioulaphides

On planned obsolescence: Disney urged his animators relentlessly to accelerate the disintegration of Cinderella's carriage into a pumpkin, as she was rushing home, past the sounding of midnight. In one memo to his chief-of-staff he wrote, "It must be so. That's how the Fairy Union has set it up. If they performed miracles that _lasted_, they'd soon be out of business."  :Laughing: 

No miracle lasts forever. Our little, strung miracles last for _quite_ a long time, all things considered. We must be calm and accepting of this fact, painful as it may be at times. Some of us will cherish vanishing glory, be it visual, aural, or both. Others among us will commission brand new miracles, knowing full well that in time they, too, will warp and sink in all sorts of ways, predictable or not. The latter group will encourage "new blood" to flow, such as Messrs. Dean, Lippi, van den Broek, et al. in the continuum of lutherie. All is well.

----------


## Bob A

I dare say there's room enough for both the old (and certainly I'm one of those) and the new; preserving the old will help ensure a continuity of design and structure that willl permit the music as we know it to sound forth into the future. (God help me, this sort of diction is what happens when listening to the ravings of the political class).

I've been disappointed in the promises of American guitar companies who "re-issue" the instruments which some of us reactionaries feel were the best ever made, at least in a factory setting; I can hope that the mandolins of the future will be faithful to the designs of those of the past that I so admire. Mayhap I'm grasping at a sound and function that never was; perhaps what I so admire is merely an artifact, the sad remains of what once was totally different. I dunno. Certainly the Neapolitan mandolin is no Strad or Guarneri; was never intended to be so, and by its very nature it cannot survive and improve over a time measured in centuries. 

At any rate, Victor is quite right. We must encourage and support the work of today's fine luthiers if we are to bequeath any part of our instrumental passion to those who will, hopefully, follow.

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## brunello97

Here is a journeyman(dolin) American Conservatory bowl which further blurs the distinction between the AC and Washburn lines.  It appears to be in quite good condition.   But what is of particular 'note' is the provenance.  According to the seller it was owned by one Clarence Mitchell a journeyman southpaw who threw the "last legal spitball" in MLB.  A very timely sales tag as the Grapefruit League warms up.  The wood selection, though, on L+H mandolins from this period never ceases to amaze me.  A sweet instrument that will sell for what, $125?  That never ceases to amaze me either.

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

This Ceccherini on Ebay UK looks to be in immaculate condition and is at only GBP103 with a day and a half to go.  Looks very similar to mine, except for a slightly different (older?) style of tuners.  One can't see it in the photos, but I would be 99% certain that this one has the characteristic double-top construction.

Rather a shame that this Angara & d'Isanto is about as far from immaculate as possible, but it does have a beautiful clown shoe case with it.

This mandolin is said to be a de Meglio from 1886, and if that is indeed what the label says, then it would be a very early and very untypical de Meglio -- it looks nothing like the archetypal model from that builder and is essentially a Vinaccia clone.  I find the drawings or etchings on the soundboard both over-the-top and unappealing and wonder whether they may be aftermarket.  The mandolin would look much better without them.

I think Euterpia was a French maker -- I quite like this one.

Martin

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## brunello97

I agree, Martin, the Euterpia has a nice character to it.  And the Ceccherini remains hovering at an accessible price.....

Here is an interesting wartime Calace with Germano/Portugese style 'bulge-back'. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123

 I am away from my home computer to check whether I have one on file.  It seems like I remember seeing a Calace flatback posted here at one-maybe also from the '40s.   I imagine the market for mandolins might have been shrunk a bit in 1943, but happy to see that at least some production continued amidst the madness. 

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Looks like Calace was catering to the German market with that rounded profile and slightly vaulted back. Reminds me of Seiffert mandolins and some of the contemporary German bowlbacks.

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## Martin Jonas

> It seems like I remember seeing a Calace flatback posted here at one-maybe also from the '40s.


This is only the second Calace flatback I have ever seen, the other one being the one you are presumably thinking of, which was dated 1944 and which was listed on Ebay twice, abotu half a year apart.  Otherwise few similarities, though: the 1944 flatback had a single-piece back and was much more austere.  Most strikingly, it appeared that the supplies of finely-made tuners had dried up and it had crude-looking all-metal tuners.  Still, it's a miracle that any mandolins were made in Naples in 1943 and 1944 -- in those years, Southern Italy saw some of the heaviest fighting of the entire war, especially at Monte Cassino, which is only about 50km from Naples.

Martin

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## brunello97

Martin, I did find an image of the Calace flatback (indeed 1944) in my files, but unfortunately not of the back.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Mick, et al... that one was on eBay twice in 06.

I think the back was a sort of boatback. Not great pics of the back but here isd what I have.

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## brunello97

Thanks, Jim, for helping me fill in.  Here is another view of the '43 Calace with its bulgey-boatey back.  From some angles it looks like a segmented version of the '44 back.   If that is correct it supports Martin's pov on the relative decline of quality through the war years.  Thankfully they kept at it though, and also some small sign that Louis de Bernières wasn't cutting it completely from whole cloth.

The first post-war Calace I have in my files is from '48.  Does someone have an example of an earlier p-w model?

Mick

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## trebleclef528

[

This mandolin is said to be a de Meglio from 1886, and if that is indeed what the label says, then it would be a very early and very untypical de Meglio -- it looks nothing like the archetypal model from that builder and is essentially a Vinaccia clone.  I find the drawings or etchings on the soundboard both over-the-top and unappealing and wonder whether they may be aftermarket.  The mandolin would look much better without them.

Martin[/QUOTE]

Your right Martin it has Vinaccia (or clone) written all over it. I emailed the seller after the sale to ask what the label says and here is the reply:
Fui Genro Alle Vinacciaru ple...DrS M Regina D Italia...Rua Catalana No 53
I dont know where he gets the De meglio connection... a good buy for the auction winner?
Ian

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## Bob A

The fellow in Italy that I got my Salsedo from has a few interesting instruments; a scalloped-rib Pecoraro from 1975, another Embergher clone, a pretty fancy Vinaccia and a Vinaccia clone, as well as an old De Santis that he's been trying to sell forever.

http://www.liutaiomagico.com/default...yDesc=Mandolin

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## trebleclef528

A fairly plain but nice looking 1894 ANGARA D'ISANTO

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## trebleclef528

This does not look at all like any Puglisi that I've seen. the shape of the head ain't puglisi, nor are the De Meglio style side "holes", but it does have a Puglisi label.... but no brand stamp on the front.

and I think the seller is a bit optomistic re the price??

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## brunello97

Well, one thing I've come to expect from Puglisi is the unexpected.  I enjoy their very eclectic design sensibilities.  Here is an array from my files, the first including the DeMeglian side vents and the second the Fu Manchu style strikeplate.

I have often wondered whether there wasn't some third part producing components (such as the DeMeglio clone bowl) that other shops assembled and labeled.  Or bigger outfits might have bought up the stock of smaller builders and hybridized components.  The history of Lyon and Healy in Chicago might be unique in its scale but not in its web of production links.  I know that our friend, Plami, is a Puglisi afficianado and probably has more informed insight than I do.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

1926 Calace on eBay Germany (actually located in Vienna, Austria).

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## Martin Jonas

Anybody fancy a _very_ over-the-top Puglisi?  Calace influences loom large, clearly, but this is fancier than any Calace I remember (no fluted ribs, though).

Martin

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## Jim Garber

That Puglisi looks very nice. I wonder what the reason is for this: "Only plays up to the 5th fret on the G string due to poor fretting, bad fret "buzz" higher than this." It could be a problem esp with the pearl fretboard which are a pain to refret. Possibly the neck is warped.

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## Jim Garber

Interesting-looking mandolin with sailboat soundhole.

Not sure if this is a good instrument but the soundhole is sort of clever tho it looks like she is taking a bath in the boat and the boat is sailing on a bathmat.

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## vkioulaphides

Catanese, probably... An interesting decorative image, but of course (as Jim writes) there's no telling of the instrument's _quality_, as "the pudding's in the eating", not in the garnish.

We've had some others with mermaids, shepherds, and the like. I must admit I'm fond of this folk-art imagery but... I still prefer it elsewhere, not necessarily on _mandolins_. My $0.02 worth...

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## trebleclef528

this is not particularly of note, but another De Meglio Clone. There are so very many of these, I'm beginning to wonder if De meglio was actually selling these to other luthiers etc, who were perhaps then just putting their own labels on? I've now seen about 15 different builders "responsible" for the clones? ... any thoughts or knowledge of this?

Of course I am aware from all the info I've read that they were (and are) very popular mandolins (and indeed one of my favorites) but i would be surprised that so many luthiers should copy it... having said that, perhaps it was this "copying" that caused DeMeglio to put this huge copyright style label on his mandos.

Sometimes i wish that someone, somewhere had accurate records of all these things, we have a lovely history of Embergher, Calace and Vinaccia, yet very little about the likes of De Meglio, Puglisi etc.

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## vkioulaphides

Yes, that is an interesting question... I had read somewhere that the de Meglio shop _itself_ built over *10,000* (!!!) model 1A mandolins (one of which I once happily owned). From the armchair-economist's standpoint that I often occupy (with all due apologies to Bob M. and all the _real_ practitioners of the Not-Quite-So-Dismal Science), it's hard for me to see why one would clone something whose _original_ is _already_ in such VAST abundance. In other words, I can see Chinese mass-producers of  glassware cloning Murano hand-blown crystal (and, as of a couple of years ago, driving the family business of Messrs Barovier to extinction). 

I do NOT, however, see why one would go out and clone something that is as abundant as de Meglios. Yes, I understand that the "de Meglio _phenotype_" the model, the specs, etc. found great popularity. But would the clones have been SO much cheaper than de Meglios _themselves_? A Murano chandelier can set you back some $5,000, while a Chinese knock-off only a fraction of that (say 1/10?) and of course there are GAZILLIONS of such copies, as opposed to precious few Muranos. 

So, I am inclined to share Ian's suspicion that the de Meglio shop may have built thousands upon thousands of these instruments, then sold them wholesale to other parties, who subsequently sold them retail under their own label. This would account for at least _some_ of these myriad clones; others, with noticeable deviations from the "standard", _are_ probably true clones-- hmm... a bit of an oxymoron there.  :Wink: 

Cheers,

Victor

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## brunello97

> Sometimes i wish that someone, somewhere had accurate records of all these things, we have a lovely history of Embergher, Calace and Vinaccia, yet very little about the likes of De Meglio, Puglisi etc.


That would indeed be a true labor of love, traveling through the country (sporting a fine Borsalino deerstalker) to uncover and connect these various threads.  I'll admit to being part of more obscure NEA grant applications....

Victor's hypothesis makes sense at many levels and Chicago's own Lyon and Healy is a case-study close to home.  They marketed mandolins at many levels, from the highest end to the most pedestrian.  Could we consider their low end models 'clones' of Washburns?  DeMeglio mandolins (as well as those be E, C, V, etc.) had some very distinctive design features that were 'clonable'.  L+H models were less idiosyncratic yet it is not all too difficult to distinguish much their work from that of Vega, Martin, and other MidAtlanticRim builders.  L+H sold off a lot of mandolins to be marketed under other labels.   This might have been standard business practice for many consumer products at the time (as it is now) or unique to the semi-industrialized instrument building world.  L+H bought up the entire stock of the Indianapolis version of the Regal line and marketed the mandolins under their own College label.  It would be hard to imagine that the company chiefs would not have at least some interest in the workings of Italian instrument companies and the popular international expositions of the time would provide an opportunity for folks to get together if by no other means.  

If as Victor proposes, DeMeglio was that big of an operation one would assume they would have left some footprints somewhere-in terms of a HQ or assembly site.  Work might have been farmed out to many small shops (the pre-Industrial Age production model.)  It has been described as the "DeMeglio System" which could have been a model or set of specifications, design elements, dimensions etc., not unlike the Gelas system deployed by various builders in France.  Hence smaller shops could produce DeMeglio for the big company and DePeggio for themselves.  (Sorry Victor, that pun was too hard to resist.)

This is all complete gaseous speculation, but a pleasant divergence from actually getting to work on a sunny Friday morning.

Mick

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## vkioulaphides

> ... that pun was too hard to resist.


Irresistible AND appropriate, I might add.  :Smile:  I have always found _de meglio_ a WONDERFUL name for a product. Quality, of course, _has_ its gradations...  :Wink:  

By way of a personal anecdote, when in a music shop in Athens recently, I spoke to a MOST untalented salesman. To wit, as I was asking about classical guitars (while pleading ignorance), he did not describe the range of quality _UPwards_ but _DOWNwards_!  :Laughing:  In other words, instead of telling me that the better models, say, project better, or are built of finer woods, or last longer, etc. he took me DOWN the path from _cheaper_ materials, to _sloppier_ workmanship, more _inaccurate_ intonation of the frets, _clunkier_ tuning gears, etc. Had I let him continue for much longer, he would have probably concluded his "prepared speech" with something like, "Look, Mister, the 100-model is a dreck; you get what you pay for."

_De peggio_, indeed.  :Laughing: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## journeybear

Searching the Smithsonian site for evidence concerning whether Orville Gibson's mandolin could be considered a truly American instrument (another thread), I was discouraged to see no mention of him at all.  :Disbelief:  However, I did see that another famous Orville, Orville Wright, owned a mandolin, and the Smithsonian has it on display, on loan from the San Diego Aerospace Museum. The caption says, "Orville Wright had an artistic bent and also played the mandolin." Nice of them to have it set up.

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## brunello97

Nothing wrong with thinking about a nice workhorse Washburn bowlback, such as Orville's, as being a truly American instrument.  No need to quibble about what 'truly' or 'American' means these days when we can savor the amazing blend of peoples and cultures that have contributed to all things we hold dear.  I have a rather modest Washburn bowl, quite similar to Mr. Wright's which is far more versatile musically than dialectic tropes might imply.   Quite nice to think of OW working on his tremolo while thinking of aerodynamics.

Mick

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## vkioulaphides

BEAUTIFULLY said! And, yes, DOWN with them no-good dialectic tropes! In fact, a while back I pondered celebrating my 25th anniversary in the U.S. by acquiring a nice, humble Vega. Said celebration came and went, and no such instrument came my way. Perhaps now for my *30th*...  :Wink: 

Speaking of no _specific_ bowlback of not, but of a whole _brand_, I was saddened to find out today that Calace's lowest-end Models 24 and 26, which stood at 500 and 500 euros respectively when I got mine (a mere five years ago!), then crept up to 600 and 650, now stand at *700* and *750*!  :Crying: 

Considering that Italy's economy has been, sadly, the Sick Man of Europe for years now, and that just about every aspect of it has been _sinking_, the horrific term stagflation comes to mind...  :Frown:

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## Bob A

Stagflation has to be better than deflation. Watching prices drop and drop as no one purchases anything is truly scary stuff. Is it time to start stockpiling krugerrands and ammunition yet?

So, when's your 30th coming around?

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## brunello97

Victor, by true coincidence just this week I finally got around to stringing up a very modest Vega bowlback that I first took in as a shipwreck two years ago.  After seemingly endless fiddling with a compensated bridge I made for it (a seat-of-the-pants adventure in and of itself) the intonation is now in good shape and the sound is as delightful as Jim and other Vega-philes here have hinted I should expect.  

The Vega model seems comparable to the equally modest 115 model Washburn I spoke of above, but it has a far sprightlier voice and has resuscitated my bowlbackerie.  However, I have been 'ordered' to seriously thin the expanded herd before even considering a serious bowl upgrade.  The price/quality discussions here viz new Calaces and Pandinis has been helpful in setting the longer term vision.

Perhaps my 'new' Vega is flukish or maybe it is indicative of their quality across model lines.  In any event, consider me amongst the converted.   Bob, Jim, Eug: any general thoughts (however hip shot) on your experience comping Washburn v Vega? 

Mick

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## vkioulaphides

> So, when's your 30th coming around?


It is coming up this very year, Bob; hence my composition titled "Broadway *'79"* (see that Other Thread), written in commemoration of my arrival to this most wondrous and bewildering land. (Pick your own percentage of each.  :Wink:  )

But Vega-dreams (or ANY dreams, for that matter) are just that: dreams. With our salaries frozen until *2011*, and rents... *ahem*... _upward adjustable_, I cannot realistically think of more mandolins, of all wild and wacky possessions one might dream of.

Cheers,

Victor

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## Pietrobono

could this be a genovese mandolin transformed into a neapolitan one by a parisian luthier ???

http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...E:B:SS:FR:1123

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## etbarbaric

Yes, that is exactly what it is.  This one has been on the market for some time, by the same seller.  It has been discussed in these pages.  It was clearly once a mandolino Genovese, and had its head chopped, and its neck shaved down as well.  Note that it still has the original six hitch pins (for six double courses).

I think I've said before that the label is at least interesting.  The time period is right, and I and others have seen a couple of mandolino Genovese with "Vinaccio" labels.

As for it being worth $12K U.S.... I think not.

Best,

Eric

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## Bob A

Unable to contribute any great insights into the washburn/vega area. I have owned two Vega bowlbacks, one a more or less midlevel model, the other a Pettine Special. The Pettine is of another order of magnitude from typical instruments, sonically, and is of course an attractive instrument in its own right.

My only wasgburn is a Washburn/L&H style A, another superior US mandolin, though not of course a bowlback.

They go to show what can be done when a company aims for quality. IMO, the Pettine model is one of the finest mandolins ever made in the US, and of course the L&H are legendary as well, and deservedly so.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

In crete mandolin(flatback and bowlback) is popular.Here is a video with a mandolin from a greek maker.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYrPLhws7hc

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## vkioulaphides

Nice! I enjoyed both the instrument and the folk/improvisatory style of playing the mandolin, a bit as if it were a laouto, with the melody on the _kantini_ (what French lutenists call _chanterelle_) and droning, mostly tonic/dominant lower strings. This sort of playing goes back not just centuries, but _millennia_! Thanks, Yianni.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Nox

Hello guys,
seems that my only chance to get a bowl back is to take a vintage, so i'm looking on ebay.
Does someone has information on Gennaro Maglioni? this is the item.
Doesn't seems in bad condition, what do you think? 

P.S
Pls, someone help me to take a decent bowl-back around 600$ !

----------


## Jim Garber

Carlo: It looks decent. Contact the seller and find out more details or go there if you can. It looks like a DeMeglio style. I wonder if it has the side sound ports.

----------


## Nox

> Carlo: It looks decent. Contact the seller and find out more details or go there if you can. It looks like a DeMeglio style. I wonder if it has the side sound ports.


Sorry my bad, i can't take it. The dude send the item only int the U.K and i'm in Italy. Maybe i could ask him, but looking on ebay i found another item a Miroglio.
What i should do? ask to the U.K dude, or follow the auction of the Miroglio?

----------


## vkioulaphides

> What i should do? ask to the U.K dude, or follow the auction of the Miroglio?


Perhaps _both_.  :Wink:  The de Meglio "clone" looks VERY nice, and I don't quite see why a seller in the U.K. would ONLY want to sell in the U.K. He has every interest in a broader pool of bidding, prospective buyers. Sure, ask him!

Miroglio mandolins are mass-produced, and come in numerous shapes and forms; this one you post is a quasi-Embergher (but not ~quite~ so, of course, considering the flat fingerboard, and SO many other elements). I am told that their tone tends to be rather thin, nasal even. I have no personal experience. 

Martin Jonas, who posts frequently here, has experience with Miroglio mandolins; I _think_ I remember him saying once that his mother owns one. Martin is German by birth, but lives in the U.K. He is a MOST helpful source of information regarding mandolin-related affairs in his adoptive homeland. I hope he chimes in during the course of this conversation.

My intuitive evaluation --which, of course, is nothing to rely on-- is that the first instrument would be the better one. The second one _might_ be viable, but ONLY if it stays very, very cheap. The fact that you are _excited_ about getting a nice mandolin, Carlo, should NOT lead you to rush into buying a _bad_ one!

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Carlo:
We need to help you get a good bowlback! I have a few friends in Italy who might be able to help. None are mandolin dealers but might know of dcent quality instruments. I can ask.

Pretty amazing that it is hard to find a good Italian bowlback in Italy.

I agree with Victor and would ask the UK seller if he/she might consider shipping to Italy.

----------


## Nox

@Jim:
I asked the dude about the side sound ports and he said me that are present.
On the page he says that the neck is straight (he replyed to a question).
So i'm going to bid on the item. He said me that the only reason he listed the item avaible only for the UK, is the fact that the package will be more of 2 kilos and therefore expensive (30/45£).
Regarding the fact that seems difficult to find a good bowl back in Italy i will post a little resume tonight. And of course if you have some italians friends that can help me let me know  :Smile:  

@Viktor
Thanks, i will focus more on the de meglio clone, but i will also follow the Miroglio, as you also noted, the guys says that the mand is in perfect state.
Let's see what happens.

And of course guys, thanks all for assisting me in this adventure, i really apreciate  :Smile:

----------


## Nox

Another question. The de Meglio clone seems has oly 17 fret, is a problem? due the shape of the scratchplate will be possible in future to mount a new fretboard?

----------


## Bob A

While I have instruments that have up to 29 frets, I'd say that 17 is reasonable for a midlevel instrument. I don't think it would be necessary or advisable to put a greatly extended board on a De Meglio; the cost might well exceed the value of the instrument.

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## brunello97

> Another question. The de Meglio clone seems has oly 17 fret, is a problem? due the shape of the scratchplate will be possible in future to mount a new fretboard?



Nox, if you can obtain a SIDE view of the mandolin, or a measurement of  the action at the 12th fret, it would do a lot to confirm the condition of the neck.  With the short neck of these bowlbacks they very rarely tend to bow (as a guitar neck might) but rotate around the neck/body joint.  They will appear to be straight to the inexperienced eye-if one just looks at the neck-but the raised angle renders them unplayable.  It was common practice for Italian makers to use softwood for necks and cover them with an attractive veneer.  This made the older bowls even more susceptable to this problem.  

I agree with everyone here that the deMeglio clone is the better choice of the two you proposed, but I strongly urge you to visually confirm the condition of the neck rather than relying on a verbal description alone.

Good luck with it.  The deMeglio I played (Victor's former one, as I understand) sounded wonderful, but did have mild neck/action issues.  It this doesn't work out, $600 should easily net you a nice mid-level Vega bowl, with delightful sound.

Let us know how you proceed.  (As you can tell a few of us around here are obsessed with these things.....)

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

... just back from St. John Passion, still a bit out of breath, but with SUCH glorious sounds still ringing in my ears! 

If it was my de Meglio, then I ought to tell the full story. The ever skillful Tom Crandall (at Umanov guitars) GREATLY improved the action and playability of the instrument by a most innovative solution: he lifted frets 12 - 17 (!), shaved down the fingerboard so as to compensate for the slight warp of the neck, and then reinstated them. This brought the instrument to 99% accuracy, intonation-wise, and of course also softened the action. I sold it after I acquired my Calace, when it had fallen into disuse and *guilt* neglect. I trust it is a happy baby now!  :Smile: 

Such wonders can, and _do_ happen; I would not, however, advise against complete fingerboard replacement, for the reasons Bob mentioned above. 17 frets are adequate for much of the older repertoire, and of course for any and all folk-music one might ever wish to play.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Nox

> Nox, if you can obtain a SIDE view of the mandolin, or a measurement of  the action at the 12th fret, it would do a lot to confirm the condition of the neck.  With the short neck of these bowlbacks they very rarely tend to bow (as a guitar neck might) but rotate around the neck/body joint.  They will appear to be straight to the inexperienced eye-if one just looks at the neck-but the raised angle renders them unplayable.  It was common practice for Italian makers to use softwood for necks and cover them with an attractive veneer.  This made the older bowls even more susceptable to this problem.  
> 
> I agree with everyone here that the deMeglio clone is the better choice of the two you proposed, but I strongly urge you to visually confirm the condition of the neck rather than relying on a verbal description alone.
> 
> Good luck with it.  The deMeglio I played (Victor's former one, as I understand) sounded wonderful, but did have mild neck/action issues.  It this doesn't work out, $600 should easily net you a nice mid-level Vega bowl, with delightful sound.
> 
> Let us know how you proceed.  (As you can tell a few of us around here are obsessed with these things.....)
> 
> Mick


Thanks brunello, i will ask for a side photo of the mandolin, and i will ask him for the action at the 12 Fret.

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## Nox

Sorry just forgot one thing.
How much is worth the De Meglio Clone? so i know when stop bidding.
And also, everyone here agree that i should not follow the auction for the Miroglio? Right now the Miroglio is at 99$, and seems i great condition.
Again, thanks everyone i will keep you all updated.

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## Nox

@Brunello.
I just asked him for a side photo of the mandolin, and side photo of the neck.
I didn't asked him about the neck before anther dude asked hi the same thing 



> Can you tell me if the neck is perfectly straight ....... there are two ways of checking the first is to hold the mandolin on it's side and look along the fretboard as if you were looking along the barrel of a gun that will let you see if there is any bend. The other way  is to measure the distance from the 12th metal fret (12th from the head of the instrument)to the bottom of the G string (thickest string)... if the neck is straight the distance should be around 2mm.


And the seller said that he checked and is perfectly straight.

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## Martin Jonas

> Miroglio mandolins are mass-produced, and come in numerous shapes and forms; this one you post is a quasi-Embergher (but not ~quite~ so, of course, considering the flat fingerboard, and SO many other elements). I am told that their tone tends to be rather thin, nasal even. I have no personal experience. 
> 
> Martin Jonas, who posts frequently here, has experience with Miroglio mandolins; I _think_ I remember him saying once that his mother owns one. Martin is German by birth, but lives in the U.K. He is a MOST helpful source of information regarding mandolin-related affairs in his adoptive homeland. I hope he chimes in during the course of this conversation.


Yes, my mother does indeed have a Miroglio mandolin, and in fact it's an Embergher clone, too (although looking quite different from the one on Ebay).  She bought it used some time in the 1950s when she joined a mandolin orchestra in Cologne and she played it as her main mandolin (albeit rather infrequently) for the next 40-odd years.  It now has a nasty crack and would need to see a luther to make it playable.  However, in the meantime she has the loan of four of my bowlbacks (a Ceccherini, a Vinaccia, a de Meglio clone and a Ferrari) and as all of them have a much nicer tone than the Miroglio, I don't think that will ever happen.  The Miroglio intonated well until it broke, but had a timid and thin voice.  No big loss.

Otherwise, i've just had a look on Ebay UK and DE for bowlbacks, and there is very little around right now, unusually so.  Of the ones currently being offered, the Gennaro Maglioni is probably the best.  It looks nice, but wiht de Meglio clones there's always the uncertainty of whether they only copied the looks of the de Meglio or the tone as well.

Martin

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## Nox

Martin Thanks for the post.
Right now i'm only looking at the De Meglio clone, i was attracted by the Miroglio due the good condition, but it's better to focus only on one item also considering the experience of the user on this board.
I also want tell Jim what is the situation in Italy *right now*
I've joined the world of mandolin about one month ago, so this is what i have understood in this window time.
Mandolin istructor usually suggest you to take a suzuki, and you can take it in any music store for around 500 (but i have heard that are overpriced and are not great). For a new item there is Calace in Naples (not for my pockets right now), there are other luthier in Naples, but honestly i don't know a lot about mandolin so i can't undestand the value of an'item. Then we have musikala, but i haven't heard great things reagarding his product. And at least we have a lot of mandolin wich are supposed to be hadmade in  Italy, but comes from China. A very simple example you can check on google for a Alfredo Privitera, it's incredible, the same mandolin is sold by various dealer from a price that goes from 130 to 300. The item is supposed to be handmade in Sicily, but as far as i know aren't handmade and aren't Italian. What is funny, is that this mandolin has been discussed in this thread in the 2006, here the same item is also on ebay (with the live performace of the famous Enzo Greco...just kidding i don't know him :D ) and to me doesn't seems nothing of special (i got tired i have seen it plenty of time in various store).
In Naples i have also see a man who has damaged vintage mandolin, which you can purchase in conjuction with a restructuring.
And at last plenty of mandolin on ebay Italia, most of the mandolin are cheap vintage mandolin like "Stridente", "Il Globo" or other mandolin without scroll, but the sellers says that is worth like a Vinaccia a Calace or a Puglisi.......
And that's all.

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## lex-joe

I was wondering if anyone knew the price for a Pandini Mandolin?

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## Nox

Good Morning Guys!
The dude sent me the side photo of the De Meglio Clone.
If the price remain low for both, i could take both mandolin, the Miroglio actually  is at 97$ with one day to the end, and the Maglione is at 36£ with 2 days to the end. What you all think? On the maglione from what i can see the doesn't have the tailpiece, it's a problem? And last question, until how much i have to bid? Thanks everyone!

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## brunello97

Carlo, it is a little hard for me to tell, given the low image quality of the photos, but the action is looking a bit dicey on the Maglioni-particularly tracking the G strings along the frets.  Another common failure point with bowlbacks is for the top to sink in above the sound hole, changing the neck angle.  Again the neck will appear straight.  Personally, I'd want to have a clear measurement of the action at the 12th fret to be buying 'blind' like this.  Something in the 2-3mm range.   Maybe somebody with better eyesight can offer a better read.  BTW, these mandolins do not have a tailpiece cover common to many flat and archtop styles.  The guscio di tartaruga style sagoma below the bridge is their to help keep your lace shirt cuffs from tangling in the strings.

Mick

----------


## Nox

> Carlo, it is a little hard for me to tell, given the low image quality of the photos, but the action is looking a bit dicey on the Maglioni-particularly tracking the G strings along the frets.  Another common failure point with bowlbacks is for the top to sink in above the sound hole, changing the neck angle.  Again the neck will appear straight.  Personally, I'd want to have a clear measurement of the action at the 12th fret to be buying 'blind' like this.  Something in the 2-3mm range.   Maybe somebody with better eyesight can offer a better read.  BTW, these mandolins do not have a tailpiece cover common to many flat and archtop styles.  The guscio di tartaruga style sagoma below the bridge is their to help keep your lace shirt cuffs from tangling in the strings.
> 
> Mick


Mick,
now i don't know...The seller says that the action at 12th fret is 2mm. I agree the photo are in low quality. I really don't know, on the Miroglio the seller offers a refund if you are not satisfied with the item.
Maybe i should wait and look for other mandolins?

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## vkioulaphides

I agree with Mick on the action, that just _looks_ high... The silver-gray background is not help, either.  :Confused: 

Considering the... *ahem*... _uninspiring_ tone-quality of Miroglio mandolins, I would cast my own vote for the Wait and See approach.

Cheers,

Victor

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## Nox

> I agree with Mick on the action, that just _looks_ high... The silver-gray background is not help, either. 
> 
> Considering the... *ahem*... _uninspiring_ tone-quality of Miroglio mandolins, I would cast my own vote for the Wait and See approach.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Victor


And then i will wait  :Frown:

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## vkioulaphides

The "wait and see" approach should not make you sad, Carlo. 

You could, for example, go out and buy the Miroglio, say for $100-200-something. That would be fair value for this instrument, assuming that it also _works_ as well as it _looks_. My own _caveat emptor_ would be this: you seem like someone who truly loves the mandolin, and someone who will probably _continue_ to play the mandolin for many years to come perhaps for life!

With that in mind, you should be realistic: if you get the Miroglio today, you will probably want to upgrade to a better instrument within 2-3 years. That is not a bad plan. But you should decide these things AFTER you take a close look "inwards", asking yourself what would make you happy.

Or you could wait, and move _directly_ to your "next" instrument. 

Cheers,

Victor

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## Nox

Victor,
you know how is, i was enthusiastic to take a new mandolin, and maybe i'm a bit hasty.
Anyway i will follow your suggestion and i will wait. Speaking of the miroglio it was previoussly on sale for 699$ and that's why i was tempted. Right now i play with this mandolin which is a bit horrible.
So which is better right now? my indecent tenson or the Miroglio? maybe i can take it for 200$ and i would be happy, and of course i would be very sad to see in a week a new auction with something of better (De Meglio, Puglisi, etc..).
Anyway 10 days ago i didn't bid for this mandolin and i'm sure has been a big mistake,  while i'm not an'expert i'm sure that someone on the board will tell me that was a good mandolin (looks very nice).
i Will wait! and i will continue to stress you all  :Grin: 
_Felice Pasqua a Tutti!_

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## Martin Jonas

Well, if it's any consolation, I don't think that Maltese mandolin was a big loss either.  The photos on the de Meglio clone are difficult to interpret, but I agree with Mick that the G string in particular looks very high (even allowing for the fact that some of those lines on the photos are shadows thrown by the flash against the background).  I wouldn't worry about the tailpiece cover; most de Meglios are missing it and it's no big deal.

Martin

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## brunello97

Ciao, Carlo, patience is indeed a virtue when mando-shopping on the ebay.  One thinks that surely all the great deals must have passed by, that every seller and buyer is highly educated to the worth of mandolins and that no deals might be had.  But a watchful eye and quick hand still can yield good value.  Our friends here, Martin and Allan, for example are certainly evidence of that, finding great deals through these auctions.  Ebay UK can be fertile ground if one is careful and discerning.  Ebay DE and FR, particularly FR, have been sleepers that very interesting instruments show up on.  Why more great instruments don't come up for sale on the Ebay IT remains a mystery to me.  But keep your eye out for nice Washburns, Martins or Vegas from the US.   Bowlbacks remain highly undervalued here, and shipping costs from the US to the EU are not prohibitive.  Please, keep us all updated on your search.  I'm sure all the folks here with their radar out will pass along interesting options your way.  

E buona pasqua a lei.  Sono molto triste di sentire le notizie circa il terremoto in Abruzzo. Tutti noi negli Stati Uniti inviare i nostri migliori auguri per i nostri amici in Italia.

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## Nox

> Well, if it's any consolation, I don't think that Maltese mandolin was a big loss either.
> Martin


Well, it a relief. It looked in great shape, and since i never seen mandolin from Malta, i played with the idea to buy it and found a beautiful instruments.

I Whis all an happy Easter-day!

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## Nox

> Ciao, Carlo, patience is indeed a virtue when mando-shopping on the ebay.  One thinks that surely all the great deals must have passed by, that every seller and buyer is highly educated to the worth of mandolins and that no deals might be had.  But a watchful eye and quick hand still can yield good value.  Our friends here, Martin and Allan, for example are certainly evidence of that, finding great deals through these auctions.  Ebay UK can be fertile ground if one is careful and discerning.  Ebay DE and FR, particularly FR, have been sleepers that very interesting instruments show up on.  Why more great instruments don't come up for sale on the Ebay IT remains a mystery to me.  But keep your eye out for nice Washburns, Martins or Vegas from the US.   Bowlbacks remain highly undervalued here, and shipping costs from the US to the EU are not prohibitive.  Please, keep us all updated on your search.  I'm sure all the folks here with their radar out will pass along interesting options your way.


Mick, i can say that i'm spendig every day at least 4/5 hours on ebay. If you think that washburn vintage bowlback are good, i've saw some one on ebay a 1928 if i'm not wrong. The mandolin on ebay italia appears, but they are overpriced when good, and with 400$ you can only purchase a very low quality instrument. Anyway thanks everyone for the help, if someone see a good mandolin for sale on ebay, or in another store let me know.




> E buona pasqua a lei.  Sono molto triste di sentire le notizie circa il terremoto in Abruzzo. Tutti noi negli Stati Uniti inviare i nostri migliori auguri per i nostri amici in Italia.


Thank you so much for the kind words. Unfortunately as you probably know, has been a big disaster and it hurt.
I Wish you, to all forum members and to all the American friends an' happy Easter-Day.
Carlo.

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## Jim Garber

> I was wondering if anyone knew the price for a Pandini Mandolin?


The last time I checked -- a few years ago -- he was getting €2500. I am not sure what he is getting now. I also don't know if he makes a simpler mandolin than the ones he shows on his site. You can contact him here. His English is not that good, so be aware of that. Perhaps use Google translate.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Carlo:
perhaps you shpould check with calace. Their most simple mandolins are reasonably priced. I think you said you would pay 600, well their Model 25 might not be much more than that: in the last price list iot was 700. I would contact them and find out the current prices.

I think you would do much better than with some vintage one from eBay in questionable condition.

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## Nox

> Carlo:
> perhaps you shpould check with calace. Their most simple mandolins are reasonably priced. I think you said you would pay 600, well their Model 25 might not be much more than that: in the last price list iot was 700. I would contact them and find out the current prices.
> 
> I think you would do much better than with some vintage one from eBay in questionable condition.


Well, my first intention was to spend no more than 600$.
With a lot of effort i can reach 600 but not 700.
If i'm not wrong Viktor payed his "Calace 24" less than 600.
Tomorrow is not lavorative here, so if i take this decision i will be in the Calace shop on Tuesday. But i must find a way to pay the mandolin no more than 600.
Everyone here retain that the base model of Calace (model 24) can be a playable instrument for many many years?

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## vkioulaphides

Ciao Carlo.

I have both good news AND bad news for you: my Calace Model *26* (i.e. the second-from-the-bottom) cost me 550 euros in 2004, then went up to 650, and now stands at 750!  :Mad:  (Model *24* was always, and still is 50 euros less, and differs only in the floral design on the pickguard, which the "higher" model has, and Model 24 does not. Thus 500, up to 600, currently 700, from what I hear.)

As for the good news: I am happy with the instrument. It is not what I (or anyone else) would call a "great" mandolin, but it works very, VERY well. In the 5 years I have had it, the only "aging" damage it has sustained is in the (synthetic) pickguard: as it and the woods around it expand and contract at different rates in response to temperature changes, the pickguard has cracked and sunken in a bit in one spot. I consider such damage trivial. First of all, it has zero effect on the _function_ of the instrument; when, eventually, pieces of the pickguard come unglued and/or become too crooked to stay in place, I will simply take the instrument to a competent luthier, who will presumable flatten them out on the heating-iron, and simply glue them back in. Effective that day, I will officially consider my 2004 baby a "vintage" instrument.  :Wink: 

But if this is more than you can pay, so be it. _Che c'è da fa'?_ There are MANY nice instruments around. Look around, "sharpen your criterion", and ask all the questions that come to your mind. We are all here to help you.

Brother Victor, M.A.S.
Fraternal Order of the Bowl

----------


## Jim Garber

> Well, my first intention was to spend no more than 600$.
> With a lot of effort i can reach 600 but not 700.
> If i'm not wrong Viktor payed his "Calace 24" less than 600.
> Tomorrow is not lavorative here, so if i take this decision i will be in the Calace shop on Tuesday. But i must find a way to pay the mandolin no more than 600.
> Everyone here retain that the base model of Calace (model 24) can be a playable instrument for many many years?


Perhaps you can work out a deal with Calace. Maybe they have a shop-worn model. Maybe they can work out a deal or a payment plan that will alolow you to own one.

I have played a few recent Calaces (including Victor's) and they are nice instruments and probably the best new bowlbacks for the money. 

Victor and I both know a young woman here in the US who is ordering a Classico B and is picking it up in Italy whne she is there in a few months. She sent me the current price list (dated 2007 for some reason). here are the models listed for the mandolins:




> LISTINO PREZZI                     
>          (Price - List)                     
>          --------------                     
>            ANNO 2007                       
> 
> ---------- MANDOLINS ---------        
> type n. 24        Euro  700,00        
>   "  "  26         "    750,00        
>   "  "  13         "  1.080,00        
> ...


Anyway, my point is that you may get a decent instrument on eBay but might very well have to pay some more money to a luthier to make it playable. Maybe it is worth it to wait until you have enough money for that Calace?

----------


## Nox

@Victory i think there arent' other ways...honestly i can't spent 700
Maybe i should buy one of those mass built mandolin, wich is funny, but all the italian store raised the price in the range on 60/100 on these mandolin too.



> Look around, "sharpen your criterion", and ask all the questions that come to your mind.


Uhm.....i could take some luthier lesson and then build my mandolin ?  :Confused: 
No really Viktor, now i'm a bit upset.....i mean with 200 you can take a piece of junk and with 700 you can take a good mandolin. Why there is nothing in the middle?
I have seen a greek site that sells meazzi mandolin at affordable price maybe i should take one of these mandolin.
I'm lost.

Regards,
the cursed mandolinist.

----------


## Nox

> Perhaps you can work out a deal with Calace. Maybe they have a shop-worn model. Maybe they can work out a deal or a payment plan that will alolow you to own one.
> 
> I have played a few recent Calaces (including Victor's) and they are nice instruments and probably the best new bowlbacks for the money. 
> 
> Victor and I both know a young woman here in the US who is ordering a Classico B and is picking it up in Italy whne she is there in a few months. She sent me the current price list (dated 2007 for some reason). here are the models listed for the mandolins:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, my point is that you may get a decent instrument on eBay but might very well have to pay some more money to a luthier to make it playable. Maybe it is worth it to wait until you have enough money for that Calace?


Well, of course i could visit Calace, and explain him my situation, something like "I just have 600. Anything for me?" Who knows.... or maybe i should just buy something a bit better than my actual mandolin, nothing of handmade indeed.

P.S.
Hey Jim i saw you page on myspace, or better i have heard "sogne di bimba" (i suppose it's you playng the mandolin) it's great, and wow you play very well,  hope one day i will be able to reach your level.

----------


## Nox

Hello guys, what about those two mandolins? both are supposed to be Italian, unfortunatelly most of the information are in dutch!
Here the links
1
2
Found other mandolin in france
A neapolitan restored
Suggestions?

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## Jim Garber

Ciao Carlo:
 The two German mandolins look Eastern European to me and not very good instruments, at least from the photos. The one in France looks nice but, as I said, it is very hard to tell what it actually needs to play well. You could write the seller and see if he actually knows what he is talking about. Also, tho that looks like it is a Vinaccia copy, I am not really sure what it is. 

If you have your mind set on an older instrument, perhaps you should check out some Italian dealers. I don't know any of them very well, but perhaps they have something in your price range:

Mandolin makers/Dealers in Italy

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## Jim Garber

More for Carlo from Ebay Italy:

I don't know this guy, but he has quite a few mandolins for sale. If he is near you, perhaps it would be good to visit him:

eBay Seller in Pescara

Of those he has for sale, perhaps of interest (you could also make an offer):
Stridente (non-original tailpiece) This was made in Naples, probably the early part of the last century.

Goldklang German Embergher-style (sort of)

It looks like this guy gets old mandolins and restores them with newer parts. I don't know anything about him -- not my recommendation, but maybe worth checking out, esp if you can go and visit and try these or if there is some way you can return it if it is not good.

----------


## brunello97

Jim and Carlo,

Say what one might concerning David di Pescara's wishful pricing, his mandolins do appear to be in somewhat playable condition, if the neck photos are to be believed.

And there buried amidst those 'NON HA PIù CARTIGLIO INTERNO' (e forse di Catania, anche) is this from Giovanni Bartolotti, the first mandolin I have come across from Padova home of miei padrini (and Sant'Antonio, of course) which kind of makes it a trifecta for any good Catholic boy, this despite those fingerboard extensions that Victor loves so well.

Mick

Carlo, the French mandolin appears to be in good, though restored, condition and appears similar to the ubiquitous DeMureda/Lanfranco etc. mandolins that appear frequently on ebay.uk.  If it is playable the 130E price sounds reasonable for the MOR quality.  A far more reasonable price than the 300E asked for the Stridente in Pescara, in my view.   Confirming the neck condition and playing action remains essential.   (BTW that is German, amigo,  Dutch remains unintelligible to me and most of my Netherlandish friends......)

----------


## Nox

> More for Carlo from Ebay Italy:
> 
> I don't know this guy, but he has quite a few mandolins for sale. If he is near you, perhaps it would be good to visit him:
> 
> eBay Seller in Pescara
> 
> Of those he has for sale, perhaps of interest (you could also make an offer):
> Stridente (non-original tailpiece) This was made in Naples, probably the early part of the last century.
> 
> ...


That's why i never contacted him, this is what he does, purchase old mandolin and resell it restored. Jim to me the stridente looks overpriced, don't know about the embergher style. As i said i trust much more on the opinions of you all than on mine. Pescara isn't near to me, it's at least (driving very fast) 5/6 hours of travel, and the seller doesn't accept a return of the item. I wrote to the guy on the ebay france, asking him for bigger pictures with details on the neck, also in the description he says that the neck is perfect, action at 12th fret 2mm. I could also write to the italian dude, but i'm not sure about the mandolin, and about the seller  :Confused:

----------


## Jim Garber

I believe that Herwig Solists like this one are pretty decent mandolins. Martin, have you played these?

----------


## vkioulaphides

I have no direct experience with Meazzi mandolins, Carlo, although I am familiar with Musicorama, the Greek store that evidently sells them. They seem _justifiably inexpensive_.  :Frown: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Nox

> I have no direct experience with Meazzi mandolins, Carlo, although I am familiar with Musicorama, the Greek store that evidently sells them. They seem _justifiably inexpensive_. 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Victor


Hey Victor, or better _Maestro_  :Smile:  (i just realized you are a compositor).
OK i will not take in cosideration musicorama.
I don't know how much phone call i did in the last week, and how much time i've spent on ebay  :Laughing:  
Anyway i have taken my decision, since play the mandolin should be a pleasure, i don't think i should stress so much finding instruments, and trying to find as much money as i can to buy a middle/high level instruments. I have started with an 80 instruments, now i want spent 600$ dollars for a mandolin, i will wait, and when i will find it i will take. I think this is the best approach.
The french guy will send me the photo of the mandolin tonight, i asked him for very big photo, and he wrote me that if my worries are for the neck, he assured me that is perfectly straight. Let's see what happens.

----------


## Nox

@Jim
i have contacted several of the italian luthier near my zone. 
One offered me two option. The first a new mandolin, basic price 1000, or since he has a lot of broken vintage mandolin, restore one of them, the base price is 600.
Other asked from 1000 to 1300, not for my pockets right now.
The only one that i haven't contcated is Liuteria Scala And i will try this week.

@Mick
So in you opinion if the french mandolin is in perfect condition, how much is worth? There are still 6 days before the auction end, so i don't know how many peoples are looking at it.
is worth 200 is worth 300? 400 is overpriced?

----------


## vkioulaphides

I agree on avoiding needless stress. 

Also, while I am perfectly happy to be called by my first name and without any honorifics  :Wink:  you are most welcome to my music for solo mandolin (see link below), which you can play on your current, or your _next_ mandolin-- as long as you enjoy it! It will also not cost you anything.  :Smile: 

http://www.paperclipdesign.com/vk/

Cheers,

Victor

P.S. The instruments of Liuteria Scala are beautiful, indeed, but I am ABSOLUTELY sure they are way above your price-range, Carlo. (Mine too, of course...)

----------


## Nox

> I agree on avoiding needless stress. 
> 
> Also, while I am perfectly happy to be called by my first name and without any honorifics  you are most welcome to my music for solo mandolin (see link below), which you can play on your current, or your _next_ mandolin-- as long as you enjoy it! It will also not cost you anything. 
> 
> http://www.paperclipdesign.com/vk/
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Victor
> ...


I called you "Maestro" because i have heard "El malecón", and is really great!
Just for case i saw an'argentianian guy playing with mandolin a song called "El malecón", and after a bit on the right i've read a familiar name  :Smile: 
I really like the rhythm, and the whole melody is really fantastic, however i think is a bit too difficult for me  :Frown: 
I didn't know about the liuteria Scala, so their instruments are of high quality? better of Calace ? Praiano is not too far from me, and as bonus during the travel you can see the "Costiera Amalfitana", that is amazing.

P.S.
as i said, i  should start taking luthier lesson  :Grin:

----------


## Nox

> I believe that Herwig Solists like this one are pretty decent mandolins. Martin, have you played these?


Jim this mandolin seems in great condition. On the other hand the price seems a bit higher. I could make an'offer, or wait if the seller make it on auction. This seller is the same of the Miroglio. The first time the Miroglio was on "buy it now" for 699$, and was nt sold, after on the standard auction has been sold for something like 300$. So i don't know what i should.
Anyway i have the image of the mandolin on sale on ebay france, 3 images for a weight of 1MB, i don't know if i can attacch here. I will try to upload it somwhere. The seller assured me that the mandolin has been already well resotred and ready to play.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Thank you for your kind words, Carlo. The Argentinian mandolinist you heard is Sebastian Frego; Ralf Leenen has also posted the same piece on YouTube. 

Now, back on topic: there is a demarcation, however blurred at times, between a small, ONE-luthier atelier (e.g. Tumiati, Pandini, etc.) and a workshop employing a _number_ of workers (e.g. Calace). The former's products tend to be more expensive, because of the special labor issues involved. 

I do not have any personal experience with the instruments of Liuteria Scala and therefore cannot compare them to Calace instruments; I get the impression, however, that they must be FAR above your price-range, Carlo. It would not make sense to put SO much work into an instrument, if ALL you could get by selling it was +/- 600 euros. No luthier could survive on that.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Nox

Ok,
the images of the mandolin on sale on ebay france can be found here Basically are the same of the auction but are much bigger.
What do you think?

----------


## vkioulaphides

I am troubled by the fact that the bridge seems to be sitting right ON the cant-- which, in turn, might indicate that there has been _significant_ corrective adjustment to compensate for a warped neck, a sunken top, or both. Can anyone else see something I am missing?

Victor

----------


## Nox

> I do not have any personal experience with the instruments of Liuteria Scala and therefore cannot compare them to Calace instruments; I get the impression, however, that they must be FAR above your price-range, Carlo. It would not make sense to put SO much work into an instrument, if ALL you could get by selling it was +/- 600 euros. No luthier could survive on that.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Victor


I looked more carefully at scala's works, and i think that i i have understood why you think are very expensive. Scala's mandolin are very well decorated, at least from what i can see, and at least they have a great look. So there are no information regarding the sound of these mandolin ?




> I am troubled by the fact that the bridge seems to be sitting right ON the cant-- which, in turn, might indicate that there has been significant corrective adjustment to compensate for a warped neck, a sunken top, or both. Can anyone else see something I am missing?


Uhmmm, should i look on other auctions?

----------


## vkioulaphides

Well... you know, of course, that the bridge ought to be "north" of the cant, i.e. the line where the top is bent. If it has been moved so that it stands ON the cant, as is the case with this instrument, this means either that

A. the bridge is in the wrong place 

or

B. the bridge HAD to be where it is, for intonation purposes.

If A, then the solution is easy: just move the bridge to the _right_ place!  :Smile:  If B, however, then you may be in for a LOT of trouble. Why IS the instrument (i.e. the frets) "out of tune"? Is the neck warped? Is the top sunken? You really ought to be aware of such things BEFORE you put your money on the table, so to speak.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

For those who need such a thing: Fratelli Vinaccia mandolin. This one needs some work, but might be a nice simple player. OTOH is it on eBay which means it will probably go for some money. We shall see.

----------


## Martin Jonas

And now for something completely different for all those with a load of old bowlbacks to restore: here is a job lot of 18 vintage bowlback bridge blanks of the type most commonly used in Neapolitan or US bowlbacks, with bone insert.  I presume these are actually old and found in a storeroom with surplus stock somewhere, but who knows?  They're looking pretty good anyway -- I think there are two slightly different styles.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

Here is a potential candidate for a decent affordable bowlback for Carlo.  It's a French-made Euterpia, which I think was a brand name for the Thibouville-Lamy shop in Mirecourt, one of the bigger European makers.  I haven't played any Euterpias, but I believe our very own John Craton has a Euterpia and has posted good things about it here.  The brand doesn't have much name recognition these days and may well stay reasonable.

Martin

----------


## Nox

> Here is a potential candidate for a decent affordable bowlback for Carlo.  It's a French-made Euterpia, which I think was a brand name for the Thibouville-Lamy shop in Mirecourt, one of the bigger European makers.  I haven't played any Euterpias, but I believe our very own John Craton has a Euterpia and has posted good things about it here.  The brand doesn't have much name recognition these days and may well stay reasonable.
> 
> Martin


Thanks Martin,
i saw it yesterday, but since i never heard this brand i didnt' asked here.
I will ask to the seller other photos as well other information.

----------


## Nox

Hey guys what is this ? to me looks like that mandolins made in taiwan. Should i stay away from it?

----------


## brunello97

Tres loin, mon ami, tres loin.

----------


## Nox

> Tres loin, mon ami, tres loin.


bien mon ami  :Grin:

----------


## Nox

> Here is a potential candidate for a decent affordable bowlback for Carlo.  It's a French-made Euterpia, which I think was a brand name for the Thibouville-Lamy shop in Mirecourt, one of the bigger European makers.  I haven't played any Euterpias, but I believe our very own John Craton has a Euterpia and has posted good things about it here.  The brand doesn't have much name recognition these days and may well stay reasonable.
> 
> Martin


Hi Martin,
i've asked the seller some images of the back of the mandolin, side images, and close-up of the neck. I explained him that i need these photo, because i want be sure that the neck is straight. He replied me that three guys looked at it and is perfectly straight and he will try to send me some photos.
I don't know but i think that he will never send me other photos  :Confused:

----------


## vkioulaphides

As you (may) know, a common standard in garment manufacturing has always been multiple inspection. In fact, shirts used to have a small, white tag sewn inside the collar, with the cryptic numeral "4". That read, in industry-code, "inspected by four", i.e. that four different persons had already checked that the shirt had been made correctly.

Unfortunately that same principle does NOT transfer to mandolins!  :Confused:  For all I care, you could have four HUNDRED people check a mandolin, and STILL give you an erroneous report on its condition! So, I would advise that you trust _measurements_ and _images_ more than _anecdotal_ reports like "My three uncles and godfather are (supposedly) experts, and all of them said...".

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Arto

... and, it´s not at all unusual to have a bowlback with a perfectly straight neck that is pulled upwards because of neck joint problems, making the instrument unplayable. It´s very wise to ask photos, and skip the instrument if you don´t get them.

----------


## Nox

> ... and, it´s not at all unusual to have a bowlback with a perfectly straight neck that is pulled upwards because of neck joint problems, making the instrument unplayable. It´s very wise to ask photos, and skip the instrument if you don´t get them.


That's exactly what i'm doing, no photos, no bid.

----------


## Nox

Hello Guys,
as Martin suggested i'm looking witch much interest ath this Herwiga
What you all think about that mandolin? is worth the price? inclunding shipiing fee would cost to me more then 600euros  :Confused:

----------


## Martin Jonas

Actually, Victor recommended it, not me.  Herwiga Solist models have a good reputation, and this one looks immaculate.  I have never played one personally, but those who have rate them highly.  This particular one clearly is an Embergher clone, and looks to be a very well-made one.  I feel good about it, if you have the money.

Just like with the Euterpia, the man you should ask is John Craton.  His main mandolin is a Herwiga Solist and he also owns a Euterpia.  As a major composer for classical mandolin, he clearly knows what's a good mandolin and what isn't, so I take this as a substantial endorsement of both makes.

Martin

----------


## Nox

> Actually, Victor recommended it, not me.  Herwiga Solist models have a good reputation, and this one looks immaculate.  I have never played one personally, but those who have rate them highly.  This particular one clearly is an Embergher clone, and looks to be a very well-made one.  I feel good about it, if you have the money.
> 
> Just like with the Euterpia, the man you should ask is John Craton.  His main mandolin is a Herwiga Solist and he also owns a Euterpia.  As a major composer for classical mandolin, he clearly knows what's a good mandolin and what isn't, so I take this as a substantial endorsement of both makes.
> 
> Martin


Hi martin excuse me, Jim suggested me that mandolin (try finding a good mandolin is driving me crazy).
Does you have an'idea of how much is worth?
Regarding the Euterpia, the guys didn't send me any photos.....and also doesn't accept the return of the item

----------


## Nox

I've sent a pm to John Craton, i'm really tempted but not for that price  :Confused:

----------


## vkioulaphides

Indeed, John is the one to ask.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

> For those who need such a thing: Fratelli Vinaccia mandolin. This one needs some work, but might be a nice simple player. OTOH is it on eBay which means it will probably go for some money. We shall see.


Went for over $600 which is not bad. On the surface it may only need to patch that back hole, but hard to say what else is needed.

In the meantime... take a look at this ornate early Regal bowlback.

----------


## vkioulaphides

I must admit I was momentarily tempted by the Vinaccia, as the "missing third" of the Mando-Trinity  :Wink:  but, quite honestly now, I should only take an interest in mandolins that come with _time to play them_...

I must also admit that I am suffering mando-withdrawal symptoms, after the N.Y. Mandolin Ensemble's last performance, and Carlo Aonzo's workshop in March. April has been oh-so-busy otherwise, but SO mando-poor...  :Frown: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Too late, Vicotr, that Vinaccia is sold. OTOH maybe i could make a trek to the city for a mando duet or two. Crazy schedule but we shall see. Maybe sometime in May?

----------


## brunello97

I like many of the details on the Regal (though perhaps the overall design doesn't hold together for my eye-a bit mix and match.)   The headstock however is superb.  I love the crown logo with the Regal name.  The headstock profile is very graceful.  It is too bad this original company folded.  They made some nice instruments.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

The Regal sold for $921, pretty high and tho a nice-looking one, I have a distinct feeling that the buyer will need to put a fair amount of money in it. The seller as much indicated that it may need either a neck reset or some substantial work on the neck to get it playable. With that inlay it will take someone with good luthier skills to make it work.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> ...maybe i could make a trek to the city for a mando duet or two. Crazy schedule but we shall see. Maybe sometime in May?


You would be MOST welcome in our humble (and tiny) abode, Jim!  :Smile:  May-ish is OK for me, considering I just finished the season at the opera this past Sunday, and now only have a few, sporadic giglets here and there. Why... that might even leave time for some _mandolin_ playing!  :Mandosmiley: 

Cheers,

Victor

P.S. No need to bring a mandolin of your own, if it is any inconvenience. I got a couple lying _somewhere_ around...  :Wink:

----------


## Jim Garber

I like that for an ensemble name: The Sporadic Giglets!!

----------


## vkioulaphides

Splendid! Just as I call my cramped corner in the opera pit the *Lumbago Triangle*.  :Laughing:  Has a vaguely Caribbean flavor, no?

Back to that Vinaccia, I _mused_ on it, Jim, but got nowhere near actually _bidding_ on it. I am happy with what I already have. Next step --and a TORTUROUS one, as you know-- is whether to make any change(s) on a ~certain~ instrument I have that is wonderful, on one hand, but not _quite_ as I want it to be. Hmm...

I will leave the merry mando-hunt to others, and only enjoy vicariously. Meanwhile, you and I ought to put those instruments we actually _have_ to some good _use_. 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Fliss

I'm another who's not actually looking to make any changes at the moment, but if the exchange rate had been back at what it was last summer, I'd be seriously tempted by the 1910 Calace that's just cropped up in the classifieds.  I'm missing my old Calace, and this one has a similar simplicity in its aesthetic which I find very appealing.  

Fliss

----------


## Bob A

That 1910 was discussed in an earlier thread here, along with more pics.
 If I didn't already have a Calace I'd like this one myself, if I had the bucks.

Go for it: it looks like a good 'un.

----------


## el cro

Didn't anyone noticed the Embergher N.2 restored by Kurt Decorte on eBay? Or was everyone lurking there trying to grab it?  :Whistling:   Lol...

----------


## Jim Garber

I noticed the Embergher. I am sure that it would be a fine playing one esp after Kurt restored it. It looks like the bowl was completely refinished. 

Price is getting up there but Kurt says: "IMPORTANT: If this L.Embergher model 2 1912 not reaching a serious price! 12 hours before the end of the auction I will stop this auction!!"

I wonder what he means by "serious price" and why he just doesn't use a reserve. Of course this was a lit4el while ago when the price was $533/400 euros.

----------


## Martin Jonas

It's only 8 hours to go and Kurt hasn't cancelled yet, so I would think he's decided to let it run.  It's at $1000 so far, and at that price is surely a steal if ever I saw one.  Unless all potential buyers are licking their economic crunch sores, I would think it should go for about double the current high bid.

He really should have put a higher minimum bid on, though, if he is nervous about selling under par.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

GORGEOUS! (But no, I am _not_ bidding on this.) Sharp-eyed James of Yorktown does it again: yes, the high-gloss MUST be non-original. Never mind, though. Anyone with the $$$ to go for it... GO FOR IT!!! 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

I am looking for some information or hypotheses regarding this bowlback that I am just about finished with some extensive repair work on.  It carries the familiar Marca Aquila label from the Favila Bros. inside, but on the headstock is the name 'Eko' which, from my limited web searching might reference the Italian guitar (and e-mando) company.  It seems a strange juxtaposition, as Eko appears to have been active as a company long after the bowlback era had passed us by.

I sent Tom Favilla a note with a question or two, but thought to post here as well in case someone had some ideas.....

Like the other Favillas I have played, it has great tone and easy playability.  Extraordinary projection as well.  I have a maple-bowl Favilla on my workbench now that I am looking forward to getting back into playable condition. 

Thanks for any help.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

That is a nice one, Mick. Here is the history of the EKO Company. I have a feeling that that Eko might not have been the same company. Maybe Eko was a model name or made for another company by Favilla. I look fwe to Tom's answer.

----------


## brunello97

Thanks for posting the link, Jim.  I heard back from Tom Favilla who briefly said there was no official connection between Favilla and Eko for production of instruments.  He went on to say that Eko was 'notorious' for adding their logo without agreement to instruments they distributed.  That said, the history of the Eko you posted suggests a much later company than when this bowlback was almost certainly made (Eko coincidentally was active during the period when Tom Favilla was most involved with the family business.)  It is possible, I suppose, that Eko added their logo to a vintage mandolin for resale, but that seems strange.  Still, the Eko logo seems in a type-style that is 'older' than the more modern logo seen on 60s era Eko guitars and mandolins.  That it is inlaid in MOP is also curious, given the easier options of decal or glue-on.  An interesting conundrum around a very nice mandolin, that I was fortunate to come by, but a mystery I don't feel certain I will solve.....

Coincidentally, the Eko history has the founders originating in Castelfidardo, home of Paolo Soprani and his wing of accordion history.  We are planning a summer visit over that way to do some hiking around La Golla dell'Infernaccio (and of course a visit to il museo della fisarmonica, twist my arm.)  A man can serve two masters, apparently.

Mick

----------


## Arto

Rare bird, high price:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1957-Embergher-M...3A1%7C294%3A50

----------


## vkioulaphides

Pretty... 

Scrooge's Prediction: won't sell; listed again, for less; _still_ won't sell; listed YET again (for even less); snapped via private deal, for undisclosed amount (NOwhere near $10K).

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Victor is probably right tho I feel that the main impediment to its sale is the fact that it is in the US. That price is generally in line with recent sales I have known about tho. I think it might sell for less but not that much less. Cerrones are considered by some to be the higher quality of performance instrument than much earlier Emberghers.

Also, I was just informed by one of our Embergher experts that Domenico Cerrone died in 1954. This is certainly be one made in heaven. :-)

----------


## Jim Garber

I asked the seller to post a photo of the label. I suppose this could have been built by Pecororaro or Cerrone's son under the Embergher label at that time. 

While we are waiting I did a screen shot of a Google street view of Via Belsiana somewhat near #6 (Embergher shop was at 7). Not sure where the shop would have been or the building might have been torn down or Google is inaccurate.

----------


## Jim Garber

Someone was hot on the trail of this Vinaccia. I was not quite sure if it was genuine, but probably just a budget model. Needs a little help with that soundport. The seller also tells me that the bridge is glued on.

----------


## Bill Snyder

Here is a 12 string Oscar Schmidt on shopgoodwill.com.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here is a 12 string Oscar Schmidt on shopgoodwill.com.


Looks like she's been around the block some. I can't tell but top looks sunk and the fretboard definitely is dried out and cracked, and there is a small back crack.

----------


## Bill Snyder

I can't tell about the top being sunk and there is not a shot showing whether the neck is bowed or not and the fretboard is a candidate for being replaced but that is not too difficult to do.

----------


## Fliss

I'm curious about this unlabelled bowlback on e-bay.  Looks nice quality, in fact to my eyes it looks rather like a Ceccherini.  It even looks as though it might have a Ceccherini-style double soundboard, if that's what I can see peeping through the soundhole?  

Fliss

----------


## brunello97

I think that is a nice looking mandolin Fliss, whatever the maker. Martin has seemed the most able around here at divining Ceccherinis. 

What type of wood does the bowl look like to you?  Is that washed-out rosewood?   Walnut?  It almost has the coloring of chestnut in these pictures, but that would be quite curious.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Looks more DeMeglio... unoriginal bridge but it looks like there are two bolt holes on the tailpiece side of the bridge for that wooden piece as opposed to the Ceccherini's 4 sets of staples to hold the strings at that point. What you may be seing that looks like a double top is the transverse bridge. of course, I may be wrong but we can't really tell from these photos.

I would ask to see a good sideview of the top. I don't know why but these tops lately to me are all looking flattened. Maybe my vision is flattening??  :Smile:

----------


## Fliss

> ... Martin has seemed the most able around here at divining Ceccherinis. ....


Yes, I'm hoping Martin will chip in with some comments.  I'm not planning to buy it, I'm just inquisitive!




> ... What type of wood does the bowl look like to you?  Is that washed-out rosewood?   Walnut?  It almost has the coloring of chestnut in these pictures, but that would be quite curious....


Mmm, I thought rosewood, but I could easily be wrong  :Smile:    Did the Neapolitan makers use walnut much?

Jim, well spotted re the staples, I forgot about them.  

Fliss

----------


## Martin Jonas

Quite clearly not Ceccherini -- wrong headstock, wrong bowl, wrong neck shape and most importantly wrong aesthetic taste.  Even the overdecorated Ceccherinis always have a certain sense of elegance and levity, which is completely missing here.  Might be de Meglio (some of their fancier models are similarly unsubtle to this one), but it could just as well be a clone.  Whichever it is, I don't much like it, neither the design nor the condition, although of course it does have some quality and is certainly worth much more than its modest current bid.  I just won't be in the running.

Martin

----------


## Acquavella

No surprise that there isn't one bid for the Embergher 5 bis. Looks like a beautiful instrument but the guy might want to lower the price a bit, especially since the binding around the sound hole is coming out. I wish I had the 10k to buy it. Still water the money tree but not one leaf has bloomed.

----------


## joebrent

One of my students recently ordered a new Calace Classico B, which arrived yesterday. She requested the armrest from the Classico A, and the metal backing for the headstock, which they did. I think they did a fantastic job -- the instrument sounds beautiful already and with a little time to get used to the schizophrenic New York climate, it will really mature well. I'm also quite impressed by the deal she got for it. I won't reveal what she paid for it, but it was an excellent price for an instrument like this one.

----------


## joebrent

Three more pics --

----------


## Arto

That´s a beautiful mandolin! And it´s good to hear it plays great, too - occasionally I have seen posts about intonation problems etc with the more basic Calace models. I have got the impression those are good instruments, too, but may need some tweaking and are not necessarily "ready from the box".

----------


## Jim Garber

Excellent, Joe. I am glad I had a small part in her decision-making process. I know that she will excel at playing even more, now that she has an excellent instrument as well as an excellent teacher.

----------


## joebrent

> That´s a beautiful mandolin! And it´s good to hear it plays great, too - occasionally I have seen posts about intonation problems etc with the more basic Calace models. I have got the impression those are good instruments, too, but may need some tweaking and are not necessarily "ready from the box".


No instrument is really 100% out of the box -- I think we're going to let this settle just a bit into the new climate, and then take it to Yuriy Kovalev for a set up. But we spent a few hours yesterday going up and down the frets, really giving it a workout, and I'm pleased to say there are no intonation issues at all, and the sound is very clear and even all the way up the fretboard.




> Excellent, Joe. I am glad I had a small part in her decision-making process. I know that she will excel at playing even more, now that she has an excellent instrument as well as an excellent teacher.


Thanks Jim, for the kind words, and for the help picking out the instrument!

----------


## vkioulaphides

> ... it´s good to hear it plays great, too - occasionally I have seen posts about intonation problems etc with the more basic Calace models. I have got the impression those are good instruments, too, but may need some tweaking and are not necessarily "ready from the box".


My FAR more basic *Model 26* has truly FABULOUS intonation!  :Smile:  In fact, it has the sweetest, mellowest, loveliest temperament I have ever heard on a mandolin. It WAS, however, sloppily strung when I got it, and the bridge was not properly adjusted (too high on the G-side, imperfect contact with the soundboard). THAT is, of course, the most labor-intensive part of the instrument, where the most time and effort goes... 

But, ever since I had it restrung with better strings --I did not like those medium-gauge carbonsteels (on this particular instrument)-- and had the bridge "fine-tuned" (both its bottom, vis-a-vis contact with the soundboard, and its bridge/saddle), I have been perfectly happy with it.

I am delighted that the good folks at the Calace shop gave such good service, and such a lovely instrument to this wonderfully enthusiastic and promising student of yours, Joe. Knowing her personally, I can only imagine the smile on her face when she got it!  :Smile: 

Your mileage might vary, of course...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## vkioulaphides

... speaking of "sloppily strung", I just noticed the attached image.  :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing: 

Happy Memorial Day Weekend, one and all! (I know how _I_, at least, will be spending it: got a Symphony to proof-read.  :Wink:  )

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Attached image??

----------


## vkioulaphides

Uhm... I meant the one _previously_ attached, one page earlier. Sorry, Jim; I was too busy laughing at the Rat's Nest Effect. Artsy, VERY artsy...  :Wink: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

> Rare bird, high price:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/1957-Embergher-M...3A1%7C294%3A50


6 hours left on this one. Any bets on whether it will get any bids? The guy is looking for cash only and would not consider trades. I asked.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> Any bets on whether it will get any bids?


I'm not a betting man, Jim, but I'd say "no". Some asking prices don't _deserve_ a bid.  :Frown:  For about *half* that money, I would gladly call Hendrik van den Broek, or Lorenzo Lippi, or Brian Dean...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Well, three hours to go on the Embergher/Pecoraro and we have one bidder who bid then upped his/her bid. I guess it is then sold for at least $10K or more if someone else decide to jump in. Unless, of course this person is a deadbeat. Stay tuned!

----------


## vkioulaphides

Oh, well... There _is_, after all, some proverbial literature about fools and their money parting ways— rather soon, too.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

I dunno, Victor. The market will bear what it will. I have not yet seen in person the mandolins of those mentioned contemporary luthiers that try to emulate the work of the Embergher atelier. I briefly played Sr. Lippi's mandola but I would not be able to compare to a mandolin. 

So, I withold my assessment of the high bidder as a fool. Years ago a friend of mine, still in college, would go to local auctions upstate New York and pay, at the time, top dollar for art pottery. What? $100 for a measly little pot. years later he amassed a nice collection and sold that same pot for more than 10X that price. 

Who is to say what these things will go for? I could have bought a Lloyd Loar in the mid-1980s for $10,000 and that was absurd to me. Now... $180,000-225,000? Ad infinauseum.

----------


## vkioulaphides

True too, Jim. It's just that the current economic environment has instilled in me a _particularly_ scathing view of human behavior. Only time will tell...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Arto

The Emberger did sell for 10 000 USD. Impossible amount of money for somebody like myself, but doesn´t feel unmerited at all when thinking about the prices of modern top class carved-top mandolin makers - not to say anything about the 1920-1940 Gibson F-5 prices...

----------


## Jim Garber

This same Embergher, same pics appeared again under a different seller. I emailed this seller and she said she was not aware of this sale so this is prob someone hijacking her account. There are two bidders so far but others prob realized that it is a scam. Too bad eBay has all bidders now anonymous so you can't forewarn.

I did report this to eBay. We will see what happens.

----------


## vkioulaphides

I'd be tempted to say, "Ah, how the mighty have fallen!", but of course the (current) $510 highest bid is ridiculously _low_. Sad, all around, that this is some sort of fraud; I don't even _want_ to know where the money would go, should one "win" such an auction...  :Frown:  Where the heck did the OTHER $10,000 go? (i.e. from the earlier auction of the SAME instrument)

I respectfully suggest that eBay ought to hire Jim Garber as master-_arbitrageur_, and have him knock some sense into some sellers/buyers, also assigning fraudulent ones appropriately lengthy, character-improving stays at Le Big House.  :Wink: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

I initially contacted the seller to see if my friend in LA could come over and inspect this mandolin in person. It is amazing that I have friends in Jakarta and Hanoi as well. I am a friendly guy.

I expected that the seller would hem and haw but not sure how this works if the seller's account was hacked. I can't see how the hacker can make any money off this, but maybe I am just naive.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> I can't see how the hacker can make any money off this...


Perhaps he/she collaborates with a well-known African prince-in-exile (I say "well-known" because I am certain he has written ~personally~ to just about ALL of us by now  :Wink:  ) who, if only you are kind enough to share your _credit-card and bank-account number_ with him, he will --upon his honor!-- proceed to wire-transfer VAST sums of money to you, all yours to keep!

No, Jim, I don't think you are "naive", not at all; I do think, however, that crooks are extraordinarily brilliant in lining their own pockets. There's _got_ to be a way...  :Frown: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Well, the funny thing is that I contacted the seller the only way i could thru eBay. I supposed I might get an email from the scammer sometime soon with an offer. You are prob right about that.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Well, we can at least take some philosophical solace in the fact that, after decades in total obscurity, we mandolinists have become "scam-worthy".  :Laughing:  Only a short while back, who'd have thought to scam people by offering to sell a *bowlback*, let alone an *Embergher*? I suppose we have risen to a degree of visibility that also attracts some of the nastier elements out there...

Cheers,

Victor

--------
A related anecdote I read (somewhere... don't ask.  :Wink:  ) 

In one of the frequent, and frequently heated arguments between the (late) Disney Bros., Roy (the business-minded elder brother) rattled on through a HUGE list of debts and accounts payable; Walt (the creative junior) listened quietly, legs crossed, cigarette-puffing, with a faint half-smile twitching under his mustache. Enraged by this mused, nonchalant  pose, Roy finally blew up and hollered, "What the hell are you smiling about? We owe over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!!!  :Mad: " 

Walt got up, went around Roy's desk, and put his arm around Big Brother. "Do you remember", he asked, "when no one in his right mind would lend us a penny, and we had to struggle for a year to raise *$1,000*?" "See how far we've come?"

----------


## brunello97

This is quite at the far opposite end of quality from the Embergher discussion above, but this bowlback caught my eye, not for being distinguishedly 'of note', but in the fact that none of its characteristics seem entirely familiar.  

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fine-Vintage-Pot...3A4%7C294%3A50

It seems more than vaguely American, but like that woman (or man) sitting across the aisle in the train and rides along near you for a few stops and then departs leaving you with a certain particular look that you can't quite place.   Very modest yet attractive nonetheless. You wish you had spoke up somehow didn't.  Okay, i have read too much Calvino, but nonetheless...... such are rainy summer nights when eight strings, thunder and a certain pair of soft blue eyes are more than enough to let certain sense to be made.

Whoa!

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

Ah, Mick, you are truly an artist after my own heart: versed both in Calvino AND in Max Fleischer!  :Smile:  

Indeed, this mandolin has a certain understated beauty to it that, and a _general_, do-I-know-you-from-somewhere sort of vagueness. I can think of no better analogy than Mick's most apt and poetic one.

Can anyone else pinpoint this curious creature?

Victor

----------


## brunello97

Here are a couple Martins of note:

A very lovely one with an unfortunate (broken) neck condition still bidding at >$700

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...:B:WNA:US:1123

And a far more modest 0 model with a BIN for $450:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...:B:WNA:US:1348

which (should the neck be in good condition) might be a sound purchase in my view.

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

Yes, the latter may be viable... Its (bowl)back, of course, is not _mahogany_, as the seller claims.  :Wink: 

Nice... (James T., are you watching?)

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## vkioulaphides

Has _this_ one been around before?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Grauso-B...3A1%7C294%3A50

Dunno... looks healthy; now, whether it's _worth_ much, I wouldn't know.  :Confused:  If it stays low...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Yet another scam on that 1957 Embergher. The "seller" even uses exactly the same photos and text on this classified site.

I emailed him to see if i could come buy to see it.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Say... I've got a bridge to sell you-- EACH ONE of you, that is.  :Wink:  Hey, you can trust me, I'll give you all a good deal.

Sheriff Big Jim Garber gathers his posse again...

Hip-hip!

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Looks like this seller was banned. I checked and it looks like he scanned eBay for ads like the one for the Embergher and copied all of the images and descriptions and then put a bunch of ads on that site at reduced prices. Hoobly said:




> Warning: The Hoobly member that placed this ad has been banned. Hoobly recommends tha you do not pursue any transaction with this member!

----------


## brunello97

Thank you, masked man.

----------


## Jim Garber

Very nice....

----------


## brunello97

> Has _this_ one been around before?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Grauso-B...3A1%7C294%3A50
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Victor



Victor, this looks familiar, but perhaps since it is rather handsome it stuck in my mind.  I recommended it to our young Neapolitan friend, who seems frustrated in his search for just the right bowl.  It will probably go for a bargain price. 

Wasn't there some ongoing speculation recently about from where the AGrauso mandolins were sourced?  Interesting that the label makes the NY-Napoli connection overt.

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

:Laughing:  Mick's montage made my day.  :Laughing: 

Those silver bullets still hit the mark, Jim! 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

> Wasn't there some ongoing speculation recently about from where the AGrauso mandolins were sourced?  Interesting that the label makes the NY-Napoli connection overt.


I believe that Antonio Grauso was, among at least two others, a disciple of Luigi Ricca. I think a lot of these Italian immigrant luthiers in America wanted to sound larger and more international than they were. AFAIK (which is not too far) Grauso made his mandolins in New York.

Here is an ornate and pricey presentation Grauso from Lark Street Music.

----------


## Bob A

No fluted ribs, no engraving or inlay on tuner buttons . . . what were they thinking? 

Could Grauso be the progenitor of Antonio Tsai?

----------


## brunello97

Yikes.   The Grauso that Victor linked to went for $118.  Unbelieveable. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Grauso-B...3A1%7C294%3A50

Things still do fall through the ebay cracks.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Do you think our young Neapolitan friend got it? I thought of going for it but the high bidder upped his bid after the initial one so he was serious. And, of course, I should be selling, not buying.

----------


## vkioulaphides

There's also a healthy-looking Vega in the Classifieds, asking $200, including gig-bag and shipping. All _finding_ takes is a bit of _seeking_...

Best of luck to all bowl-seekers out there!

Victor

----------


## Chris Berardi

There seems to be quite a few good deals on antique bowlbacks -- if one knows what one is looking for. But, unfortunately I don't know enough yet to do so -- I too afraid that I'd wind up with a pretty decoration and not a playable instrument.  :Crying:

----------


## brunello97

> There seems to be quite a few good deals on antique bowlbacks -- if one knows what one is looking for. But, unfortunately I don't know enough yet to do so -- I too afraid that I'd wind up with a pretty decoration and not a playable instrument.


Good deals can still be had on many decent quality bowlbacks, particularly American made instruments from the 1890s to 1920 or so.  The high end Martin and Vega artist models fetch scary prices but both those companies, as well as the Lyon and Healy Washburn line, offered high quality across their full range of instruments.  There were a dizzying array of other builders and labels some of regularly high quality (e.g. Larson and my favorite, Favilla) and others who made instruments across a wider range of prices and quality (e.g. Manello, Grauso, Ricca.)

Then of course are the myriad of Italian, French and German made bowlbacks with a similar breadth of quality and lack thereof.  Too much to go into in one not-so-short post.  We don't see as many as we might like here in the States.  Where are you located?  That might help narrow or broaden your search.

Neck and top related issues seem to be the betes noires of these old instruments.  If you find an instrument in which these are in good shape then the chances of a safe bet are higher.  Many bowlbacks from this era where highly ornamented which is no guarantee of higher quality sound or playability.  

Perusing through this thread for information and examples can be very enjoyable (at least it is for me) and I have learned enormous amounts from regulars like Victor, Jim, Martin, Eugene, Bob, Plami and many others who really know their stuff.  Let folks know what you are looking for and you'll find no lack of interested suggestions and recommendations.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Did any of our colleagues in the UK make it to this Bonham's Auction on June 23rd? I linked to the sale of a collection of mandolins, some notable but many needing restoration. The collection of bowlbacks started at lot #90.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Real-life auctions feel strange to me for all but the most desirable collectables, say a Loar, something high-profile enough that one can expect everybody who is seriously interested to hear about the auction.  For anything else, it just seems like an arbitrary limiting of the potential bidders compared to an online auction.

Looking at this auction, it's a bit confusingly presented, but I think that they sold some of the mandos off as job lots and others individually.  A few decent instruments and some junk, but pretty random values.  The values may of course be influenced by condition, which seems doubtful in some instances.  Still, an A4 at 900 Pounds, a K1 at 1320 Pounds and an F4 at 2160 Pounds seem cheap for the UK market (and pretty good even for the US market).  Of the bowlbacks, some of the de Meglios seem to have been bid high compared to typical Ebay prices, but then there is a lot of two de Meglios going for a combined 96 Pounds.  Some of the others seem underbid, others wildly overbid.  I can't imagine paying 312 Pounds for that Stridente or 240 Pounds for that Silvestre.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

I used to go to carpet auctions with my brother in Singapore.  I would get pretty agitated and bought what now appear as curious rugs.  I agree, Martin, for me it is a good thing the ebay allows some detachment.

So the same 1000L would get you in on an A4 or a autographed photo of La Divina?  I admit to a certain fondness for her and Puccini but would probably resist.  How about you, Victor?

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

Ah, no top-feeder, I... 

In fact, my latest acquisition —as of today!— was a second-hand (but WONDERFUL!) Dogal _case_ for my trusty Calace. The Dogal came with a friend's Classico A; she then upgraded to a custom-made Kingham, and the Dogal trickled down to me, as it were; keeping the good stuff circulating, I will hand down the Calace shop-case that came with _my_ mandolin to yet _another_ dear friend.  :Smile: 

The bottom line is that I am DELIGHTED with my new toy (or rather accessory thereof), and plan to put it to good use (especially as it comes with both a single shoulder-strap and two, symmetrical, back-pack straps)— a HUGE benefit to those of us negotiating the straits of N.Y. City subway turnstiles. Have niftily portable mando, will travel.  :Wink: 

The end result of my humble tastes is the "real illusion" of wealth.  :Laughing: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

I did get quite a few of my favorite instruments at carpet auctions. My technique is, unlike many others, is to figure out what I can pay (factoring in the premium) and then sit up front (as opposed to the back) so I can't see who is bidding against me (I don't really want to know). Works for me. Sort of fun in a stupid way. I haven't done it in years tho.

----------


## brunello97

But really, how can a man choose?

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

Answer: Not so easily.  :Wink: 

Did you know that there IS, in fact, a tangential, personal link between La Divina and the mandolin? Seriously, now... Quite surreally, Yours Truly comes into the picture, too. (How's _that_ for a cliff-hanger?  :Laughing:  )

A few years back, I got a call from a New York public school (P.S. 79, I think). The music teacher there happened to be the sister of a cellist I had gone to conservatory with, so she had been referred to me by my former classmate. "We have a room full of mandolins", she said, "and no use for them." After a pause and a sigh, she added darkly, "The custodian has convinced the principal that they must go before the school-year begins." It _already_ was late August.

So, either bravely or stupidly --_your_ judgment-- I said, "Sure, I'll take them"-- even though, of course, in the Manhattan cubicle where we live there is NO space for even ONE more instrument! In the course of subsequent conversations with the school's administration, I asked them the question begged, i.e. how come they had SO many old instruments around. (I was baffled, as my own Better Half is also a music teacher at a public school, but obviously the most common instrumentarium is mostly new, not vintage.) After a deeper yet sigh, the person from P.S. 79 explained, "If you only knew... *Maria Callas* went to this school, back in the '30s." My jaw dropped. "Oh, we've had SO much music over the years... Now the last remnants of our music program will end up in the trash-heap." I could sense the person on the other end of the phone-line choking up. I reiterated my offer to help, and hung up; it was both too awkward and too painful for both of us to continue that conversation.

As for the silver lining: out of the 30-40 instruments I "adopted" (albeit VERY briefly, as a pass-through surrogate), about 10-or-so were salvageable. Upon hearing of this imminent mando-disaster, I had IMMEDIATELY contacted Scott Tichenor, who referred me to a friend of his, who was in turn starting a plucked instrument program at his school (somewhere in the Pacific Northwest, I believe), and was in dire need of instruments. I gave the "survivors" a quick dusting, packed them in a great bit cardboard box, and shipped them off to a Better Place. Everybody won, so to speak. We'll never know whether those mandolins and La Divina were ever in the same place at the same time-- ships passing in the night, and all that.

I apologize for the digression and for the perhaps trivial personal anecdote, as those instruments were hardly "of note". Their _story_, perhaps...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

Amazing story, V, thanks for passing it on.  Chain lightening sure feels good.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Not a bowlback or even an instrument, but I know a few of us are still lacking one of these important books: The Guitar and Mandolin by Philip J. Bone. This is the 1972 edition. I have a copy already, so go for it. Also the seller is a reliable one. I have bought a few things from him in the past.

----------


## K. WONG

Before one goes for the book, I think he/she should know that the 1914 edition can be downloaded free of charge in the following link:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/15815467/B...er-London-1914

----------


## Stefano

The 1914 edition is easly readable also here: http://www.archive.org/stream/guitar...ge/n9/mode/2up.

The 1972 edition, as you can see into the index (second photo), contains many authors not treated in the 1914 edition, for example Pettine and Ranieri.

Stefano

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks. K. That is good to know. I will check to see if there are things in that earlier edition that are not in the later. I have to say, tho that having a bound edition is much more convenient to me. YMMV.

----------


## K. WONG

It is better to have both, the 1914 and the 1972 edition.
Bone's photo next to the title page in the 1914 edition cannot be found in the 1972 edition. In the stead, in the 1972 edition, between pages 64 and 65, you can find another photo of Bone, but an old man is he.
I have some difficulties with the link that Stefano has given, but in the downloaded 1914 edition, at the very back of the book, one can find pages of advertisement which I find very interesting, and these few pages cannot be found in the 1972 edition.
There should be more differences between these two editions. Like JG, I have the bounded 1972 edition, and I have downloaded the 1914 edition, I have read the 1972 edition many times, but except the advertisement that I have just said, I have not read the content of the 1914 edition. It is not very convenient to me.

----------


## Martin Jonas

The adverts are indeed fascinating.  We discussed the 1914 Bone download a few months ago here and I posted some of the adverts then.

Martin

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

I agree with K. Wong; if possible to find them it is always nice to have all editions. Or better 'publications' for the 1914 and 1954 are the editions with changes, improvements and additions while the 1972 is a reprint of the 1954 edition. So, including this 2nd and enlarged one, the one that was edited and published in 1954 by Philip J. Bone himself. 

Small differences between the second 1954 edition and the reprint of it published in 1974 by Bone's daughter Irene Bone, such as the added _'new Preface'_ (a kind of extra introduction with interesting details on her father P.J. Bone) written by Irene and the omission in the 1972 republication of the dedication note by P.J. Bone (only found in the 1954 edition) to his daughter etc., are fun to notice and can be of interest also.


Best, 

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

Funny... I can't remember what I post. I am embarrassed to say I originated that post that Martin mentions about the Bone download. hah!!

----------


## Bob A

A gentleman from the Netherlands posted a query and linked to some photos of a high-end bowlback with a Silvestri label, looking for info. Anyone?

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=53975

----------


## Richard Walz

Depends on how you define 'high-end'... I would say slightly 'over-the-top' on the inlays. Not sure this approach works well for the acoustics but it probably helped keep the instrument from ruin and neglect.

----------


## Bob A

Indeed. It was the nature and extent of trim that brought the phrase to hand; I agree that a fancy instrument is likely to be treated in a far less cavalier fashion than a run-of-the-factory example. Nevertheless I find playing the ornate models somewhat intimidating; I hate it when bits of pearl pop off.

From what I could make out, it seemed in good condition for its years, unlike others such as myself.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Beautifull mandolin from the cretan maker Rompogiannakis
http://www.nrompogianakis.com/el/Klassic%20mandolin.php

----------


## Bob A

Looking at no. 1 I find the scroll to be much more pleasing than the Embergher hook, or the L&H scroll, on their respective top-line instruments. Reserving judgement on the double-circle soundhole, I will note that the opening area seems a bit scant for the size of the belly. I assume a smaller soundhole would influence the tone toward the midrange, but that's just a guess.


It would be interesting to have a firsthand player's account of his (or her) perception of the mandolin. Thanks for the link; despite my current level of instrument saturation it's good to knowthat temptation has not entirely withered away in my bosom.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

As the maker told me the scroll and the double soundhole are influences from the cretan lyra.
The maker has calculated the opening of the double soundhole to be the same with the oval soundhole.
He makes beautifull lyras and laouta (lute) too.

----------


## Jim Garber

10 String Ceccherini. I sort of forgot that these were strung 2-2-3-3 as opposed to the Vega 10 strings which were 5 course instruments.

----------


## Martin Jonas

That Ceccherini is very similar to the Ceccherini 10-string I had for a while, but in better condition.  I converted mine to an 8-string and sold it to an Ebay buyer in Naples (sending it home!).  I liked it, though, only selling it because I already had two others by that builder.  The tailpiece cover is not original (should have the same inlay pattern as the scratch plate), but other than that it looks pretty solid.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Vinaccia in the classifieds. NFI.

Despite what the seller says, this is a mid-grade Vinaccia. It is odd that he doesn't mention what wood the bowl is made from. or did I just overlook that?

----------


## Jim Garber

Jeff Chu posted these aforementioned Calaces in the classifieds.

----------


## Jim Garber

Last call on this beat up Luigi Salsedo fluted ornate mandolin.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Ah, bygone beauty...  :Frown:  

Victor (who-never-had-any-to-begin-with  :Laughing:  )

----------


## dave17120

I have photos of a strange bowlback mandolin........... the owner wonders if I know anything about it?! I hate saying no.... so here goes....

----------


## dave17120

...........and here is the signature, looks like Costa Alfredo. Can anyone decide what is written beneath? Jog any memories? Look familiar at all? (Not to me, but I can hope...)

----------


## vkioulaphides

From what I can tell, it says "fabbricante" (i.e. builder) M. Barche. That being the plural of "barca" (i.e. boat, ship), and based on the hull-like ribs, I'd say: Naples Shipyards, Alfredo Coast, late 19th century.  :Wink: 

Seriously, now: I have never seen such a thing! I, too, would _like_ to know. I yield the floor...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Victor might be in the right realm even with his humor. Looks like the maker might have taken a burlap sack to line the bowl. Very unusual bowl rib pattern. My guess is that it is a sort of talented amateur maker, maybe a retired shipbuilder. I don't recall the name from my list, but I will check later.

----------


## vkioulaphides

By my usual (nutty) free-association, I was thinking of the hulls of Dutch _platbodem_ (flat-bottom) canal-boats which, being so flat, often had to have some vertical, some lateral beams in order to attain the desired shape.

The burlap, of course, confirms my hunch.  :Laughing: 

Let us see who can unfold the mystery out of the burlap...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

It looks like those sideways ribs are of oak, which also might indicate that the maker might have made a trip to the 19th or early 20th century equivalent of the Home Depot.  :Smile:

----------


## Chris Berardi

> From what I can tell, it says "fabbricante"


Looks more like a G or J to me. Of course, "Gabbricante" or "Jabbricante" makes even less sense.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Calligraphic "F"s are always hard to decipher. A standard such Italianesque calligraphic F is akin to the F in "Fender", as in the brand of guitars. So, I am going more by context and logic than by visual accuracy. My take, at least...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Schlegel

So hard to decide if this should go here or in the flatback thread...Frankenbruno
 
Check out the neck pic!

----------


## Bob A

For ten bucks the tuners look OK. Frankenbruno meets the Resurrection Man.

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## Dan Hoover

i'm looking for some advice on this Wurlitzer May Flower mandolin,owner say's in nice playable condition with case,no repairs,cracks or splits...i'm sure there's some things to be done,i'm looking for one that needs attention,but don't want to get in over my head..asking $350...is this a decent price? or would i be better off getting one thats truly ready to go and and paying more for?any input will be greatly appreciated..thanks

----------


## Jim Garber

Ah, yes, a boatback conversion. Lovely. Hey, it kept it as a playing instrument, I suppose.




> So hard to decide if this should go here or in the flatback thread...Frankenbruno
>  
> Check out the neck pic!

----------


## mrmando

Any opinions on the value of this Brandt bowlback? 

Abalone fretboard, double purfling, nice looker, could be a "presentation grade":

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## Jake Wildwood

> i'm looking for some advice on this Wurlitzer May Flower mandolin,owner say's in nice playable condition with case,no repairs,cracks or splits...i'm sure there's some things to be done,i'm looking for one that needs attention,but don't want to get in over my head..asking $350...is this a decent price? or would i be better off getting one thats truly ready to go and and paying more for?any input will be greatly appreciated..thanks


Dan -- that looks like a Vega-made instrument. I have an identical one (albeit with a butterfly in the pickguard) upstairs. Best bowlback I've ever played, hands down, too. And you have the original bridge on that guy, too... cool.

----------


## Dan Hoover

> Dan -- that looks like a Vega-made instrument. I have an identical one (albeit with a butterfly in the pickguard) upstairs. Best bowlback I've ever played, hands down, too. And you have the original bridge on that guy, too... cool.


Thanks Jake,it looks like a solid mandolin...going to check it out this week...i do believe it will be following me home...been wanting a old bowlback for awhile...i was talking to Stan Jay,he kind of thinks it might be Martin made?once in my hands,i'll be probing around,looking for numbers or such...i'll be asking questions...again...thanks.

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Was anyone else's curiosity piqued by the appearance today of an ad in the Classifieds for an early 20th century Puglisi mandolin in Almaty, Kazakhstan?  No price, no photo.  I wonder if the owner is here and could tell us more about it?  I admit I'm not a potential buyer, but would love to hear about any mandolin activity that may exist in that part of the world, now or in the past.  I wonder how this instrument came to be in this place.

BC

----------


## Bob A

Oops. Ignore this post.

----------


## Bob A

There's an Embergher 5bis copy in the classifieds http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/...uery=retrieval

----------


## Aya

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to post, this is my first post here.

I started taking mandolin lesson some time ago and having been using rented mandolin from the school. I decide to get one for my own, and looking for a good one. I came across with the italian antique mandolin below on a Japanese auction site, and wondering if this one or a new budget model (as I live in Japan, it would be Suzuki mando around 7oo USD) would suit me.

The antique one is Stridente, restored by a luthier in France. The starting price is approx. 600 USD. Current owner has been playing it for some months, so it should play no problem hopefully. I don't know much about antique mandolins, but is it worth it? 

Which do you think better, considering I'm a beginner and playing solo for fun, mostly Italian & German classics and popular music from movies and musicals. I also have to confess, I care the looks... inlaids of the instruments. (I know it's kinda girlish, but I am a girl anyways :P)

Thank you in advance for your kind advice, and excuse me for my poor English.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Hello, Aya, and welcome among us. I am sure that I speak for all of us, when I express my delight at the fact that (apparently) younger people like yourself are taking up the mandolin. You are the future of the mandolin, and we must do everything we can to support and encourage you.

Having said that, the judgment between the two instruments is really up to you. The Stridente you refer to looks like it is in excellent shape and, as it was only recently restored, it _probably_ has no major, structural problems. I have never owned a Stridente, however, so I will have to defer to others, who may have first-hand knowledge of these instruments. Suzuki mandolins are also respectable instruments but, if a vintage Italian in good condition can be bought for more or less the same price, the latter would probably be the better buy.

No need to apologize for your English; many of us at the Cafe are not native English-speakers, as this forum is broadly international. Finally, as for _girls_ playing the mandolin... you do know of Alison Stephens, don't you?  :Wink:  She has some truly delightful stories of her earlier years, relating the funny and/or frustrating experiences she had as a young woman and mandolinist.

Once again, a warm welcome from all of us at the Mandolin Cafe, and best wishes on your first mandolin-- whichever one you finally choose.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

The restorer of this mandolin is our own Dave Hynds. I am sure that he did a decent job of putting back to playing condition. My only concern would be that brass plate on the back of the neck near the headstock. I don't believe that that is original ot the instrument nor do I believe that Dave added it.You can reach Dave thru his web site.

----------


## Bob A

Personally I prefer old Italian instruments over modern factory production.

Of course a modern custom-made instrumnt by a respected luthier would be superior to both, in most circumstances, but would not be available fo the price you're considering.

Others here would disagree; some, especially professional musicians, don't want to deal with the problems that can arise when playing on a delicate antique instrument. This is sensible if you play for a living, and your instrument has to stand up to the rigors of constant professional use. It may also make sense if you live in an area isolated from the services of repair professionals, though you can always pack it up and ship it to repair.

If the antique mandolin comes woth the pink case in the picture, that would  be a 150 dollar bonus, and should be figured into any price comparison.

----------


## Jim Garber

BTW I just read a recent posting on MIMF where the poster says: "I know there is a book coming out soon about Emberghers that might be helpful. "

Any clues what he is talking about?

----------


## Aya

Thank you for your warm welcome and advice.

Jim,
It's good to know that the luthier restored the mandolin is someone here! I visited his website, and feel the mandolin should be in good condition unless the owner treats it well after the restoration. Oh, regarding the peg, the current owner says she changed had the peg changed to the one by GOTO (Japanese manufacturer) as she intended to keep the instrument to her own use and did not mean to resell originally. She doesn't have the original peg.

Bob,
I'm new to mandolin and cannot really tell what mandolin plays/sounds how. But I respect craftmen's work and value the years the specific instrument has been survived. In that sense I may prefer the antiques. Most Japanese mandolin players use custom-made mandolins by Calace, Noguchi or other Japanese luthiers. But as you mentioned, it's beyond my current budget, and if I order a custom-made mandolin, I should know and play better :Smile: 
The pink case comes with the mandolin, but I subtract 150USD from the starting price already. 

Oh, and Victor, I'm not that young... the school I mentioned is the private music school I'm taking the mandolin lesson once a week, not a high school  :Wink: 

I think I will try to win the bid of Stridente.

----------


## Tavy

Just my 2c worth, but $600 starting price for a stridente - even one as nice as that - seems over the top to me.  UK shop prices for those seem to be in the £250 - £400 range, about $300 - $500 at current exchange rates.  Unrestored versions go for less than £100, and another £200-£300 would get it professionally restored.

You might do better contacting David Hynds directly and seeing what he has in stock.  Alternatively, I'll be putting a nice Silvestri up for sale soon: if I can stop playing it for long enough  :Grin: 

HTH, John.

----------


## Tavy

I forgot to mention the tuners on that stridente: it's hard to decide if the replaced tuners are a pro or a con: they'll work a lot better than the originals for sure, but it's kind of nice to have the original bone tuners in place too!

John.

----------


## Bob A

Not to be too picky, GB pounds are about 1.60 US dollars. 400 pounds=640 dollars.
I like the idea of contacting the luthier directly.

----------


## Aya

I contacted David Hynds following your advice, and he was so kind to tell me the difference between old German and Italian mandolins, what strings are good for them etc. I decided to purchase one of the Italian mandolins he has. I'm really excited about it  :Smile: 

By the way, the Stridente I attached the picture was sold for $3,100.... I'm glad your kind advice (and my ability to speak English :P) saved me a lot of money!

----------


## vkioulaphides

> the Stridente I attached the picture was sold for $3,100.


That _is_ rather rich, IMHO...  :Disbelief: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Aya

Yeah, that's way toooo expensive.
But that's good for the seller, who wrote in the description that she wanted to keep the Stridente but had to sell it to pay the hospitalization cost.

----------


## Tavy

> By the way, the Stridente I attached the picture was sold for $3,100.... I'm glad your kind advice (and my ability to speak English :P) saved me a lot of money!


I'm dumbstruck, and clearly selling in the wrong place!

John.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Another one (so near from where i live.The ancient rival Athens :Smile:  :Smile: 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=tab%3DBidding

----------


## vkioulaphides

*shudder* _Electrifying_ an Embergher!  :Crying:  Clearly, that's what the little holes were for. Vandalism!  :Mad: 

On one hand, No. 2 is an "orchestra", NOT a "soloist" model; on the other hand, if the price stays low...

Best of luck to those who bid for this.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

You are right Victor.On the other hand is not difficult for someone to repair it ,and i don't think it would cost much money.It has minor problems.

----------


## vkioulaphides

True. The little holes --offensive as they may be-- seem to have been drilled rather neatly, and should take no great skill or effort to repair.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

Let's see . . . it needs a bridge, properly fitted, tailpiece, holes filled. No idea of condition of frets and neck. Crack in top. And it's hard to see how much of the bowl was repaired/replaced.

I suspect a serious restoration would not be cheap. But decent work enough to render it playable might not be too extreme. Good thing it's located in an area where there are good luthiers familiar with bowlbacks.

----------


## Jim Garber

William Petit just sent out an email announcing this 1921 Embergher 5bis. I am sure it is in the 5 figures (I have not asked).

----------


## vkioulaphides

I take the liberty of "transplanting" this question here:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...659#post734659

Let us see what the Better Informed have to say...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

The "Athenian" Embergher apparently failed to achieve any bids, even with an opening bid of $10. Interestingly, while the location is Athens, the shipping was US Priority mail. 

It must be near the harbor, with that fishy odor.

----------


## 1980gms

If someone lives in Greece but he is registered in US ebay (cause there isn't a Greek one...) he has to choose among USA shipping options. If you would read the text you would have noticed that there is a phrase "I live in Athens, Greece, so ask me for shipping cost".  And for your information the "Athenian" Embergher was sold outside ebay for a very high price. It wasn't mine after all...i just tried to help a friend (the owner).

----------


## Bob A

Thanks for the details. I was unaware of the shipping difficulty. Glad to read that your friend did well with his sale. Sorry if I gave offense.

----------


## 1980gms

Do not worry. I was not offended.

----------


## Strider

Hello all,

Been a while since I`ve looked on here...Could anyone tell me about this Mandolin ? The inside label reads Alfredo Albertini , Catania . The number is faded so cannot tell you what it is . 

Sorry for the poor quality of the photos ,not easy to photograph. It is atleast 50 years old ,and seems to be in quite nice condition. I`ve been asked what it`s worth ,but of course that cannot be said without seeing it `in the flesh` so to speak.

Regards,

Keith

----------


## vkioulaphides

Hello, Keith.

Nice to "see" you again. This instrument appears to be a Catanian attempt at the "Roman" mandolin-type, albeit of course with the *ahem* _decor_ that is oh-so-Catanian. 

It may sound fine, and thus its value hinges on that, more than anything else-- as you say yourself.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Strider

Hello Victor,

Thank you for that.  :Smile: 

 It doesn`t sound too bad to my untrained ear ,but looks to need a bit TLC and tuning correctly.

Keith




> Hello, Keith.
> 
> Nice to "see" you again. This instrument appears to be a Catanian attempt at the "Roman" mandolin-type, albeit of course with the *ahem* _decor_ that is oh-so-Catanian. 
> 
> It may sound fine, and thus its value hinges on that, more than anything else-- as you say yourself.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Victor

----------


## Fliss

Ceccherini mandola just cropped up on ebay 

Fliss

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Ceccherini mandola just cropped up on ebay


That one looks really nice -- the first Ceccherini mandola I've ever seen.  Come to think, I've never seen a de Meglio mandola either.  I suspect the "1887" is a serial number, not the year, as I would be very surprised if any Ceccherinis were shipped to London prior to 1895, the year that Francia came to London with his Ceccherini soloist mandolin.  This also looks to me to be a later style of label and decoration compared to some I've seen (and owned), which I would think should mean that this is a 1900 to 1910 instrument.

This is the same Ebay seller who sold me the higher-grade of my Ceccherinis, and indeed the mandola is at the same level of decoration and similar condition to mine.  Starting price is two-and-a-half time that of my mandolin, though, which may be justified by the rarity of the mandola, but depends on finding somebody who wants it enough.  I suspect it will end without bid, but maybe I'm wrong.

Martin

----------


## joebrent

This one certainly ain't for sale, but... 

Ralf Leenen is in town so I got a chance to play this Embergher which used to belong to a certain Mr. Ranieri... Not a bad way to spend a Friday evening.

----------


## Jim Garber

That one looks quite nice on you, Joe.

----------


## joebrent

Looked better on 'im.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Uhm... and _which_ town IS that, Joe?  :Disbelief: 

Cheers to you, and to the elusive Mr. Leenen.  :Wink: 

Victor

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I suspect it will end without bid, but maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> Martin


I _was_ wrong, as it turns out.  Went for 1020 GBP.  Well done to both seller and buyer: that's a very solid price for a Ceccherini, but given the rarity of good quality bowlback mandolas the seller should end up with his money's worth.

Anybody here?  If so, post your impressions.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

> Looked better on 'im.


Well... quick, get the goop!  :Laughing:

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice looking Fratelli Vinaccia, maple bowl, due to end soon. Asking price ($1200) is up there but actually fairly reasonable if it is genuine and in decent shape.

----------


## Martin Jonas

That one looks really nice -- I like the plain ones.  Photos may mislead, but I don't see anything hinting at issues, so this should be a good catch.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Just to be clear... I am not going for it. Good luck to anyone who is. Rare that they show up in the US.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

A.Stathopoulo Bowlbacks from the 1913 catalog.
Made from maple and brazilian rosewood.

----------


## Jim Garber

Excellent, Giannis. Thanks for posting. Do you own that catalog?

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Yes.It's going to be in a small book that i am working on about life and works of A.Stathopoulo.

----------


## Jim Garber

Wonderful!! Will it be published in English? Please do let us know when it will be available.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

I am working the Greek Edition right now.Probably it would be translated(not by me  :Laughing: )in english.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Great! I'd love to see it some day-- in _any_ language (that I can read, of course).

Incidentally, do not underestimate your English. But translation _does_ get tricky. A Swiss chalet-owner, tired of hearing complaints every morning about skiers walking noisily, with their ski-boots still on, across the wooden floors at night, posted a note saying "Perambulating corridors upon boots of ascension, inconsiderate during hours of dormition."  :Laughing: 

Cheers, 

Victor

----------


## MANDOLINMYSTER

heres a few "bowlbacks of note" all have been painfully restored to their original gradure.

----------


## MANDOLINMYSTER

with a few more added....

----------


## vkioulaphides

LOVELY! And the Lladró (or -esque) statuettes "frame" the mandolins in _most_ angelical fashion.  :Wink: 

Bravo!

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Michael:
 How about some IDs for these treasures? Also who did the restoration work?

----------


## MANDOLINMYSTER

> Michael:
>  How about some IDs for these treasures? Also who did the restoration work?


Lets see, Theres  Waldo, Stetson, Regal, Wolfram,George Bauer, Adams and a no name, probally a few others that may or may not be in the pictures.

I do all my own resoration work.

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks, Michael. Nice collection. 

I have lots of restoration work to do as well... I was just thinking that I need to do the same, when I can get some time. I just don't have as nice a piano.

----------


## MLT

I just saw this ad in the Cafe Classifieds for a pair of Calace's from the 1940's (Mandolin & Mandola).  Mind you, I am not in the market, but as the seller is asking $15k and they needs some restorative work I was wondering if they are "right priced"?

Just a curiosity and I figure that someone here will know.

Thanks.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Those instruments —if we are speaking of the same ones— have been discussed at some length at the Café earlier; I forget where that thread is... Said instruments had been brought to this side of The Pond by a couple of emigrés from Greece. Part of the price reflects the "set value", i.e. that they are (ideally) sold _together_. 

On one hand, the materials used on those two instruments reflect the hardships of war-time (plus aftermath), and one of the two also needs some work— I forget which one. On the other hand, they are truly excellent specimens of what the Calace shop was building at that time, and carry significant historical value, as well. 

Ultimately, it is of course the _sound_ of an instrument that carries the day (or not) and, in that respect, I cannot offer any insights. I have, on occasion, fantasized on the acquisition of a larger-than-mandol*in* bowlback instrument but, always painfully struck by the pitifully little time I devote to my lovely mandolins _themselves_, I have recoiled, almost immediately.

Life is full of such bittersweet experiences— at least for me. I have access to a truly FANTASTIC curriculum of evening classes (at zero cost!), being a university officer by day. Add to that my insatiable appetite for learning, e.g. languages, history, literature, technical subjects, etc. and you would imagine that I am buzzing like a hummingbird, blissfully quenching my thirst at the Fountain of the Muses— or at least of Higher Education. Uhm... do you think I have EVER taken such a class? Alas, alas...  :Frown: 

So, if anyone here has the _time_, first and foremost, and then also the money to put in a decent bid for those instruments, I have a basic, gut feeling that he/she would not be disappointed. Yet this is of course not an _endorsement_, for the aforementioned reasons.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

Given the current economic climate, I'd imagine the seller would do better investing in some repairs. By the time the repairs were finished, it's possible that the economy would be firm enough to encourage serious bidding. Admittedly, the situation is not likely to improve much over the short term, but if my experience with repair/restoration luthiers is any guide, the repairs will take some time. (I still hope to see a pair of instruments currently in Jersey City in my lifetime, but I've had 3 grandchildren arrive since they were sent off, and the luthier no longer accepts my calls).

If I were interested in that pair of instruments, I'd not care to spend massively on a pig (or pair) in a poke; as-is, at the present moment, serious lowball bids would be all I'd care to offer. 

They're nice instruments, but only worth what a buyer is willing to pay, and a seller willing to accept. Time and circumstance heavily influences the situation. For example, I was aware of a certain fancy Embergher mandolin that I dearly coveted; the owner spent much time and effort trying to find a buyer at top dollar. I at the time had some stock I was willing to sell to cover the price i offered, but the powner's sights were set higher. Eventually the stock lost 90% of its value, and the owner sold it thru a dealer, realising half of what I'd previously been able to pay.

Holding out was a bad idea then, but it might be a good idea now. But then there's the velocity of money concept; a dollar in hand is a powerful incentive, and can be made to grow. On the other hand, I'd gladly pay you Tuesday, for an Embergher today.

----------


## Schlegel

Well done, Bob.  :Laughing:

----------


## Jim Garber

> Just wanted to say this beautiful pair of Calace Mandolin and Mandola are available. They were built together, and have identical inlays. Mandola is in playing condition, while both could use some repair work. Label states "1945. "Made expressly for James Nicholson." signed Rafaele Calace."


I agree that the price is high for the pair. Of course, if they were Emberghers that would be a steal. I think that the seller is testing the waters. OTOH players in Japan love these Calaces. 

Jeff should give more detail as to what work is needed. of course, If I were seriously interested I would inquire. Or perhaps Jeff could join the discussion here.

I found the thread: Calace Mandolin and Mandola

----------


## vkioulaphides

Yeah... I believe that Jeff is simply _representing_ the owner(s) as some sort of pro bono, bona fide agent, friend of the family, or something like that. No one has a firm idea of what these instruments might fetch; in the harshly truthful words of a NYC real estate mogul, "Value is what _others_ are willing to pay for what you have"-- which is, of course, Bob's point, and what it always boils down to.

I wish all parties in this (eventual) transaction well. I am not among them, but will watch from afar, with great interest.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

I believe that those are both Classico A models. I suppose they could sell for $4000-5000 each maybe higher and I suppose that the mandola would go for more. Still I am not sure if 1940s are a vintage and so desirable decade. 

We shall see.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> I believe that those are both Classico A models.


I think so, too. The _current_ instruments of this class go for something like $4K-ish (the mandolin), and presumably a notch more for the mandola. So, if one were to "replicate" this vintage set with modern instruments, one would shell out some $10K. The rest (of the ask price for this vintage duo) is vintage-value, the rarity factor, "goodwill", whatever. $15K may be high-ish, but not irrational. As Jim writes, we shall see...

My $0.02 worth-- coincidentally, my current _net_ worth, too.  :Laughing: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

The latest Calace price list I have has the Classico A mandolin at 2550 ($3676) and the mandola 3450 ($4972), FWIW.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

www.trixorda.blogspot.com

This link is my blog that i have created recently. Some of the bowlback instruments i have made but not mandolins on it
Maybe in the near future i will show the mandolin bowl making etc.

Comments (good or no) are welcomed
Trixorda is the word for three strings bouzoukia(DAD tuning)
Because is in greek you can translate it.(you will laugh with the translation!)

----------


## vkioulaphides

BEAUTIFUL!  :Smile: 

By the way, I would be more than happy to provide less, ah... _robotic_ translation(s), if requested.

A question for Gianni: could a laouto be built with fixed (i.e. metal) frets? I very vaguely _think_ I have seen such a thing... Just curious.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## billkilpatrick

my turn of the last cent. bowl-back ("a. galiano") has one of those metal plates on the underside of the tuning platform. the original tuners are ok but i was thinking of getting something newer and - hopefully - better for keeping the mandolin in tune.

good idea? ... bad idea? ... any recommendations?

grazie - bill

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

> A question for Gianni: could a laouto be built with fixed (i.e. metal) frets? I very vaguely _think_ I have seen such a thing... Just curious.


Thank you Victor.
Yes a laouto can be built with metal frets,but it will lose its characteristic sound.(My 1921 House of Stathopoulo had metal frets on it). And ofcourse the greek laouto is an eastern instrument and the fret ties are movable in order to play maqams and traditional-byzantine scales.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

On The blog i have linked two videos one with bouzouki playing and one with laouto

----------


## Fliss

If anyone's looking for a de Meglio, here's one that's just cropped up on ebay 

Fliss

----------


## Margriet

If anyone's looking for a de Meglio, 
here's one that's just cropped up on ebay 

Fliss[/QUOTE]

And another one.... so choice.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1910-VINACEIA-...#ht_500wt_1182

----------


## Jim Garber

> If anyone's looking for a de Meglio, 
> here's one that's just cropped up on ebay 
> 
> Fliss


And another one.... so choice.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1910-VINACEIA-...#ht_500wt_1182[/QUOTE]

I like the paperwork that came with the second. Interesting. It looks like they are selling DeMeglios for twice the price of Vinaccias.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here's the posted photo of the papers that came with that Demeglio.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I like the paperwork that came with the second. Interesting. It looks like they are selling DeMeglios for twice the price of Vinaccias.


Rather more than twice.  That's one pound and one shillling (=21 shillings) for a Vinaccia against two pounds and ten shillings (=50 shillings) for a de Meglio.

I wonder however whether these were actual Vinaccias, or Vinaccia-style mandolins.  The word "genuine" is notably absent from the Vinaccia description.

Original selling prices sometimes make strange reading.  I recall we had a 1920s German catalogue here a while ago and the price for a No. 1 Embergher in Germany was about a quarter or less of an A-jr in the US at the same time.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

> Rather more than twice.  That's one pound and one shillling (=21 shillings) for a Vinaccia against two pounds and ten shillings (=50 shillings) for a de Meglio.
> 
> I wonder however whether these were actual Vinaccias, or Vinaccia-style mandolins.  The word "genuine" is notably absent from the Vinaccia description.
> 
> Original selling prices sometimes make strange reading.  I recall we had a 1920s German catalogue here a while ago and the price for a No. 1 Embergher in Germany was about a quarter or less of an A-jr in the US at the same time.
> 
> Martin


I once had some 20s German Marks in a collection of paper currencies-some from the inflationary period (incredible engraving still) and some from the hyper inflationary period (printed on one side only.)  Investing in Emberghers or Gibsons at the time might have been a wise hedge.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

HI 
I have restored the stathopoulo mandolin i own.
I tried to keep all the original parts(even the screws).
The only parts i have changed was the fretboard and the varnish on the top.
Pictures on my blog
www.trixorda.blogspot.com

----------


## Jim Garber

Giannis:
It looks very nice. How does it sound?

Jim

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

It sounds nice.Very loud and warm tone.If i find a good mandolin player here in Sparta i will upload a video in youtube(I am not so good).
I have put savarez mandolin strings on it.Any other suggestions?

----------


## Jim Garber

I have never played with Savarez strings. My general favorite on bowlbacks are Dogal Calace. I have also tried Fisomas or Optimas roundwound. others may have their favorites.

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## Bruce Clausen

A Ceccherini is being advertised locally that looks to be in very nice condition.  I'll be checking (cecching?) it out Saturday, and would welcome any pointers from the experts here.  Of course I know what to look for in action, sound, intonation, etc.; but are there any details I should be especially attentive to with this make?  Thanks for any help.

BC

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## Martin Jonas

Bruce,

As you may know, I'm a big fan of Ceccherini -- I own two and had a third one at one time which I sold on deciding that I don't really need all of them.  They have a lovely complex tone, particularly on the trebles, although mine are slightly less strong on the bass.

The basic construction is similar to a de Meglio, although the necks are a bit more delicate.  So, all the usual things about whether the neck is straight, action, cracks, neck joint etc like for any other bowlback.  The most prominent and most unusual design feature is the double top inside the bowl underneath the soundboard in a manner similar to a virzi.  This is fixed to the top by a couple of small wooden tags on either side of the soundhole (accessible to the touch from the soundhole) and a further one underneath the bridge (inaccessible), but it is otherwise suspended in the bowl and not fixed to the sides of the bowl.  On one of mine, the suspended top was loose on one side of the soundhole, creating a slight rattle.  Fixing it was a five minute job.

The other thing is that one of mine (but not the other), and also on the Ceccherini that Victor K used to own, there was a sharp intonation on the first few frets.  On measuring fret spacing, I found that the nut was too close to the first fret and the intonation was greatly improved by moving the nut two millimetres away from the first fret.  There is an old thread on the Cafe describing this in some detail.

Other than that, I think they are generally structurally pretty sound.  Good luck on checking it out, and let us know how you're getting on!

Martin

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## Bruce Clausen

Thank you, Martin, that is very helpful.  I'll report back.

BC

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## Martin Jonas

> The other thing is that one of mine (but not the other), and also on the Ceccherini that Victor K used to own, there was a sharp intonation on the first few frets.  On measuring fret spacing, I found that the nut was too close to the first fret and the intonation was greatly improved by moving the nut two millimetres away from the first fret.  There is an old thread on the Cafe describing this in some detail.


Oops, I meant the other way around, of course: the nut was too far from the first fret and I moved it closer to optimise intonation.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

I am gratified to see that you have figured out the _cause_ of it all, Martin and, most importantly, the _corrective_. You, of course, have the scientific mental apparatus to work all this out; all I had was the nagging _ear_ of a musician, and nothing more. Good to know.

Cheers,

Victor

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## Jim Garber

Nice looking simply ornated 1903 Fratelli Vinaccia at Bonhams in London March 10.

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## Bruce Clausen

I bought the Ceccherini this morning. The instrument apparently really did belong to the seller's grandmother, but the granddaughter had no recollection of ever seeing or hearing it before it turned up among the old lady's things.  I was also given a pack of mandolin lessons mailed in 1936 from U.S. School of Music in Manhattan to an address in Victoria BC.  (Registered postage:  34-1/2 cents.)  

Old, maybe original tooled leather case has for trademark an M, a W, and a calf's head against a scroll with staff lines. The instrument must not have been played for decades, but it was more or less in tune. It is in remarkable condition, although it will need a little tweaking.  Action is at 8/64 in. (G) to 7/64 (E), top of 12th fret to centre of string.  I'm used to 1/64th less, and I find that's a big difference.  Seems like it is already higher than necessary at the first fret, and I think that is responsible for a slight intonation problem.  Fret ends are poking out along the board.  Machines seem good and are working well.  There's a couple of places where binding has broken away, and one of the bridge-end dots is gone.  A loud vibration on second-fret F# may have to do with the internal suspended resonator. The ornamentation is not gaudy, but not really nice either. I get the feeling the tortoise shell plate is not real shell; was there a substitute available?  The top is branded with the legend "sistema brevettato".  Anyone here know what that refers to?

The sound even with ancient strings is nice and full, a little richer and more dignified than my Watanabe. With only 17 frets, it was not intended as a professional instrument, but it seems like a powerful and very versatile mandolin.  Neck is 1-1/8 in. wide at the nut, a little wider than the Watanabe, but that suits me fine. 

I'll have to get it to a repair person I know here.  I feel sure that with a little judicious filing this will be a very usable instrument.

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## Martin Jonas

Congratulations, Bruce -- looks in great condition.  This one is very close indeed to my Ceccherini, both in level of decorations and in condition.  The only significant difference is that yours has an extended (but unfretted) end of the fingerboard overlapping the rosette, whereas on mine the fingerboard ends at the 17th fret and the rosette is continuous.

A few comments:

"_Action is at 8/64 in. (G) to 7/64 (E), top of 12th fret to centre of string. I'm used to 1/64th less, and I find that's a big difference. Seems like it is already higher than necessary at the first fret, and I think that is responsible for a slight intonation problem._"

I had a slightly high action at the first fret too, and I slightly lowered the zero fret (which is integral to the metal nut) to adjust this.  As I said in my previous post, there was also an intonation problem, but that required the nut to be moved.  Of course, the intonation on yours may change once you have new strings on it.

"_A loud vibration on second-fret F# may have to do with the internal suspended resonator._ "

Possible, but not something I have encountered on mine.  Maybe check whether the resonator supports are loose.

"_The ornamentation is not gaudy, but not really nice either._"

A matter of taste, perhaps.  I find Ceccherini's sense of aesthetics rather pleasing (although I'm not so sure about the additional inlays yours has in the fretless end of the fingerboard).  Although Ceccherini didn't put dates on his labels, I am fairly sure that mine, and thus also yours as it is so similar, dates from between 1895 and 1900, and instrument aesthetics changed between then and, say, the 1920s.

"_The top is branded with the legend "sistema brevettato". Anyone here know what that refers to?_"

That stands for "patented system" and I am fairly certain it refers to the suspended second soundboard/resonator.

"_With only 17 frets, it was not intended as a professional instrument, but it seems like a powerful and very versatile mandolin._"

I don't think that is correct.  As I said, I believe this one was made between 1895 and 1900, and at that time 17 frets was standard even for professional performers.  Embergher and a few others had started experimenting with fingerboard extensions, but they were far from the norm.  For what it's worth, Ceccherini was the maker of the mandolin of Leopoldo Francia, the most celebrated mandolin virtuoso of the 1890s (although Francia's instrument did have a special extended fretboard according to the Sparks book).

There are a few old threads on Ceccherini here that you may have already seen, including these:

Excerpts on Ceccherini from the Sparks book, and photo of Francia with his Ceccherini (post #15/16)

Details of the adjustment of the intonation on my Ceccherini

Have fun with your new mandolin, and looking forward to hear how it sounds with new strings!

Martin

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## Jim Garber

As usual, Martin has it all covered. Ceccherini is one Italian mandolin that I would love to own and example of. Ah, someday. Congratulations to you, Bruce. I am sure you will make very beautiful music on it.

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## Fliss

Congratulations, Bruce.  That looks like a very nice example, and with a small amount of tlc I'm sure it will serve you well!

Fliss

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## Bruce Clausen

Thanks, Martin, Jim, Fliss, for all the advice and lore and encouragement.  The Cecch. sounds even better today, starting to come around after its long sleep.

Martin, I think the high nut in itself is causing sharp notes in the first few frets, because it effectively increases both the nut-to-fret distance and the tension of the fretted string, like bending the string along the fret.  We shall see.  Thanks for straightening me out on the short fretboard;  I guess I've always assumed that the 19th century mandolin virtuosi were keeping up with the violinists in expanding the instrument's range upwards.  Sounds like this came about more recently than I thought.

I see now in an old thread Jim identified the maker of the elegant (but now a bit dilapidated) case.  Thanks again to all.

BC

----------


## med

> If anyone's looking for a de Meglio, here's one that's just cropped up on ebay 
> 
> Fliss


I am pretty interested in these DeMeglio mandolins (it happens to be my surname, and my grandfather played mandolin a bit) - I found one being sold online from 1920, which seems a bit late, but not out of the question.  It's a Model 0,  N20U50.  Does anyone know if there's some online documentation about this luthier?  I found this page:
http://www.mandolinluthier.com/de_meglio_family.htm

and the instrument looks quite like the 1920s model pictured there.  I'd love to find out more before I buy it, though.

Thanks

Marisa

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## Bob A

There are lots of De Meglio mandolins extant, so you needn't worry much about being able to find one. Model 0 is about as basic a mandolin as you can find; my experience with Italian bowlbacks is that while ornamentation went up, quality stayed pretty much even, at least in the years around the turn of the century. A fairly plain Ceccherini of mine sounds the same as an incredibly ornate example.

The best advice I can give is to look for one in excellent condition and playability. You don't want to double the cost to you by paying for extensive repairs.

----------


## brunello97

Marisa, that website link is to our long-time MC friend Dave Hynds, who has had an extensive practice refurbishing, repairing and reselling mandolins (as well as making his own, apparently.)  He does seem to concentrate on old Italian mandolins, though some French and German instruments seem to have gone through his shop.  Dave used to frequent here much more often and I, for one, miss his regular contributions, which were always helpful generous with his knowledge and experience.  Buying old bowlbacks sight unseen can be a dicey prospect. Bob's advice is sound.  The repaired mandolins Dave sells always seem to have well-done and meticulous work and seem to be good values.  The DeMeglios that I have played have been nice instruments.  What do you mean by 1920 being 'late'?  The larger US builders began to move away from bowlbacks by the '20s but it seems that in Italy (at least for the more well known builders, that production continued on up to the war and beyond.) Why not contact Dave directly about the DeMeglio you are interested in?  Please let us know if you do decide to purchase it.  There are a lot of DeMeglio fans here....

Mick

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## med

> What do you mean by 1920 being 'late'?  The larger US builders began to move away from bowlbacks by the '20s but it seems that in Italy (at least for the more well known builders, that production continued on up to the war and beyond.)


Ah, ok.  I just noticed that the reference site I found said that DeMeglio made mandolins mostly from 1895 through 1910.  I was wondering about the authenticity.  However, I saw some photos and it looks identical to what is on Dave's site.

From the photos, I would say the condition is B-, but the price is A+  :Smile:   I'm rather new to mandolin playing (much more of a guitar player), so I'm upgrading from an old Harmony flatback that used to be Grandpa's.  It's got sentimental value, but doesn't sound that amazing.

Thanks for responding to my post - looking forward to checking out this forum more in the future.

Marisa

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## brunello97

Ah, Marisa, now I understand better.  I didn't mean to contradict your 'source' viz DeMeglio production, but was speaking in general terms.  I had thought you were looking to buy something from Dave, and didn't see any DeMeglios currently for sale there on his site.  Do you have images of the DeMeglio you are considering?  BTW some of those old solid wood Harmonys have begun to develop a fan base around here judging from recent threads. 

Mick

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## Fliss

Hi Marisa, welcome to the Cafe!  I've had a couple of De Meglios (albeit one of them passed through my hands fairly quickly!) and they are really good mandolins.  If you do get the one you're looking at, please post photos when you get it, we'd love to see it and hear what you think of it. 

If you don't get that one, they do crop up on ebay fairly frequently, in varying condition. There's another De Meglio on ebay at the moment which looks quite nice.

Fliss

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## Margriet

Since today I am the happy owner of a nice old French mandolin. Alex Timmerman thinks the maker is Clément Eurly.
In the thread "Post a Picture of Your Bowlback", which is within the thread "post a picture of your mandolin" there is more information about these instruments ( pages 4, end 6, begin 7) and first I posted mine there. 
As it belongs also to the classical sector, I post it here also, might be interesting.
Look how lovely.......
When she is ready and playable, I will post new photos and experiences.

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## Jim Garber

Hi Margriet:
I replied on the post a Picture thread as well...

It looks lovely. Do you think that it needs some correction to the neck angle -- it looks a little high above the upper part of the fretboard? I guess your luthier will tell you that.  

I wonder if, as a playable instrument with steel strings might it be better to use something like these Pegheds tuning pegs. They are geared so the tuning would be much easier and more accurate with still looking like the std violin pegs.

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## Margriet

Hi Jim,
indeed, you can see that the strings are high above the fretboard. When I took it out of the travelbox the bridge was in the middle of the cratchplate and I put it afterwards, without doing anything else, only loosen the strings. The angle you see, is probably because of the fact, that the bridge is much too high..... We will see when we are going to work on it. And we will show it to Alex. Alex said that the tuning pegs you mention, are of later date ( if I am allright).

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## Jim Garber

Yes, the tuning pegs are modern -- just that if you want to use it as a performing instrument.  Of course, if you want it to be close to original, use violin-style pegs. It just might be difficult to tune accurately.

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## Margriet

Hi Jim, another time....
the tuning pegs I did not look very well.... in my excitement. I thought you were talking about an  in-between-form op pegs, that also was mentioned in the other thread.
I read your reply in the thread and looked better. Yes, these are pegs also for bow string players who play baroque and who have often to tune. I will keep it in mind. Anyway I need to buy new pegs. The price of the gear pegs will multiply the plain ones, I suppose. Thank you for the tip. Worth trying, maybe also on my Lombardian mandolin.

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

I have just finished the restoration of a Stathopoulo Bouzouki (1919).Pictures in my blog www.trixorda.blogspot.com

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## Martin Jonas

These don't come up that often:

Martin Style 6a

Martin

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## Jim Garber

> These don't come up that often:
> 
> Martin Style 6a
> 
> Martin


That is a real odd peghead. Do you think it is original?

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## Jim Garber

The back of the peghead shows some suspect surgery IMHO.

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## Jim Garber

Here is what it should look like.

He does say: 



> It has a previous repair on the tip of the peghead where the very center section above the open area has been replaced.


However, he doesn't say that it was replaced oddly.

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## Bob A

Oddball repair, but it looks as though only the very end of the peghead was involved. It would be a good deal at the current price, or even a multiple thereof, IMO. The peghead/neck joint looks typically Martin.

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## Jim Garber

Yeah, the rest of the mandolin looks fine. Strange that someone took the time to fix the peghead but, I guess, decided to be creative rather than restoring it. Many of those pegheads just get rounded off when  they break like that.

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## Martin Jonas

Maybe the owner just had a hook that he wanted to hang the mandolin from.  The hole in the original headstock, while aesthetically pleasing, is an awkward shape for a hook.

Martin

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## brunello97

I thought there was something familiar about this, er, modifica profilaticci.  I checked my files and found another Martin 6 from 1919 with a similar repair.  I like Martin's thinking (Martin Jonas, that is.)  This is very curious.

Mick

Wait a minute.  Upon closer inspection, I think this is the same mandolin.......

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## Jim Garber

Mick: I think that is the same one. Look at that irregularity near the e-string peg.

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## brunello97

Yes, Jim, that is what 'tipped' me off.....

Mick

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## trebleclef528

> Mick: I think that is the same one. Look at that irregularity near the e-string peg.


The mando detective strikes again! :Cool:

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## Bruce Clausen

Just got my Ceccherini back from the repairman I left it with several weeks back.  Earlier photos and description are in post #4867 above. (By the way, while waiting I found time to read through the first 1200 or so posts in this remarkable document; now I must complete the job.)  I had asked him to file the fret ends, which were poking out from the edges of the fingerboard, and bring the action down.  He noticed two cracks in the apron and felt he should repair those too. Well, by the time I got it back, he had found and repaired many more cracks, spliced in some new binding where there were some bits missing, lubed the gears, French-polished here and there where he had disturbed the finish, and done a nice clean-up on the spruce top (which is basically unfinished wood on these). Photos show the shoulders, with the unusual fingerboard termination with hummingbird inlay; the peghead with tacky aluminum flower; and the binding problem before and after. I'll continue the tale in a second post.

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## Bruce Clausen

The instrument sounds very good to me, and plays much better than before.  But there's still a problem or two.  The action and intonation on the G strings are going to need a little more work. The string spacer and "zero fret" in this case were two separate pieces of brass, which makes setting string height at the nut very simple. But the brass saddle at the bridge allows for no compensation other than slanting the bridge itself so as to make the G's longer than the E's. The repairman brought the bridge height down by removing wood from the underside, and slanted the bridge a bit. But the position of the bridge along the strings needed moving too, so that the bridge now stands very close to the abyss (or whatever you call it). I'm almost tempted to go to a normal compensated bridge: the photos show the Ceccherini bridge (with marks attesting to its original position), and the bridge on my Watanabe. 

One other little matter will take some getting used to: the bridge is so low (about 5 mm from strings to top), and the onlaid not inlaid scratch-plate so thick, that one needs to remember to pick over the sound-hole to avoid the constant clicking of pick on plate.

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Bruce, for posting.  I am happy to see the return of your mandolin and to know you are enjoying it.  What are your thoughts on the brass saddle?  I outfitted a much more modest Italian bowlback with brass zero fret and saddle and want to believe there is added sustain.  Like yours, the compensation needs fiddling and I plan to cut a compensated saddle from brass sometime soon.  The bridge is woefully short as well.  I don't believe the neck has gone out, it seems that the neck/cant angle was never that sharp to begin with. 

Are those aluminum flowers cast? Stamped and die cut?  Probably fairly exotic touch back in the 'teens or whenever your Ceccherini was made.  If you have a shot of the string spacer, zero fret that you could post, I would appreciate it.....

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

Bruce,

Thanks for the update -- sounds like your Ceccherini is coming along nicely.  Regarding the bridge intonation, I don't know whether you have checked out this old thread regarding the intonation on my Ceccherini.  I have replaced the straight brass saddle (actually German silver on mine) with a compensated bone saddle.  This is very straightforward, just take the brass one out and slide a bone saddle of the same size in its place.  The saddle is held in place by string tension only and is not glued.  The bone saddle can be made as wide as the ledge on which the original saddle sits, and that give you enough saddle width for the required compensation.  This is a completely reversible operation; if at any stage you want to revert just swap saddles again.

Impact on tone is difficult to say.  At the time I thought little if any difference.  I should probably do an A/B compare again to see if that's still my opinion, but the Ceccherini is now with my mother in Germany.

Martin

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Thanks, Mick.  The aluminum flower I think is stamped.  Yes, no doubt aluminum had different associations for that era. The brass zero fret only affects the sound of open strings of course, but the brass bridge-saddle gives every note a distinctively metallic sound-- it's very rich, bright and sustained, but perhaps allows too many harmonics to come out on the lower strings. So I'm curious how the bone saddle Martin fitted for intonation purposes affects the sound.  As far as photos goes, the thread Martin links to above probably has what you want.

Martin, thank you for all your guidance here.  I'm probably seeing a combination of several problems.  My action is around 1.5 mm at XII on the E's, 2.5 on the G's. (My other bowlback has 1.5 and 2.0 respectively.)  I notice sharpness at every fret on the G's, but almost no intonation problems on the other strings.  Of course, with no bridge compensation one expects the notes on the G's to get sharper the higher you go, but they are sharp from the beginning, and one of the strings more so than the other.  So I probably need:  good strings; an adjustment to bring down the action on the G side; maybe also an adjustment to clean up the zero fret;  maybe a very slight change in the position of the zero fret, such as what you did (but maybe only on the G's); and some way of compensating at the bridge, such as what you did at that end. The compensated bone saddle idea may be the way to go, although the little shelf the brass saddle-rod sits on is only about 1.5 mm deep, perhaps not enough to achieve much. By the way I notice you set the A strings longer than the G's, which surprises me a bit; or did you get an additional effect by slanting the whole bridge?

Do you (Martin or others) have any views on the apparent change of scale length involved in the new bridge position?  There was a long thread on this phenomenon elsewhere on the Cafe recently.  I still can't see how the same fretboard could be in tune initially with one nut-to-bridge distance, but later with another.  Or has so much compression occurred within the instrument's body that moving the bridge simply restores the original scale length?

They are temperamental beasts, as I'm learning.

--Bruce

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## Tavy

> Martin, thank you for all your guidance here.  I'm probably seeing a combination of several problems.  My action is around 1.5 mm at XII on the E's, 2.5 on the G's. (My other bowlback has 1.5 and 2.0 respectively.)  I notice sharpness at every fret on the G's, but almost no intonation problems on the other strings.  Of course, with no bridge compensation one expects the notes on the G's to get sharper the higher you go, but they are sharp from the beginning, and one of the strings more so than the other.


Bruce: that's almost always an issue with the nut - the G strings are thicker and less flexible than the others so often they don't sit down well in the string slots - making the point of contact not at the very front of the nut as it should be but further back.  

Except... re-reading I see you have a zero fret... and I haven't seen that issue with a zero fret before  :Disbelief:   Looks like either the fret is in the wrong place (too far from the first fret, but less likely if the other strings are OK), too high (strings get bent out of tune when you fret), or badly shaped with the strings not making contact far enough forward and/or not bending over the fret cleanly (try mashing down the strings with your thumb just forward of the zero fret to see if the G strings will sit down better).  Your luthier should really have at least spotted this when working on the instrument... even if it was something that wasn't going to be easy for him to fix without surgury that perhaps you might not have wanted...

HTH, John.

HTH, John.

----------


## Tavy

Not sure if this is really noteworthy or not... except to me that is!   :Grin: 

Just finished restoring this Stridente... more images in this thread.

Cheers, John.

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## Bruce Clausen

The Stridente looks terrific, John, here and in the other thread.  Beautiful work!

Thanks for your comments on my little problem with the Ceccherini.  I think you must be right that there's a nut problem as well as a problem of compensation at the bridge.  From your photos I take it that on the Stridente you've both compensated the saddle itself and mounted the bridge at a slant.  I wonder what total length difference is necessary between the E's and the G's to get both those two courses to play in tune.  Compensation for the other two courses I guess has to be worked out in the light of the slant angle. Both the slant and the actual position of the bridge, half over the cliff, look extreme; do you find this is a routine situation with getting old bowlbacks working properly?  Thanks for any comments.

--Bruce

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## Tavy

> The Stridente looks terrific, John, here and in the other thread.  Beautiful work!


Thanks Bruce!




> Thanks for your comments on my little problem with the Ceccherini.  I think you must be right that there's a nut problem as well as a problem of compensation at the bridge.  From your photos I take it that on the Stridente you've both compensated the saddle itself and mounted the bridge at a slant.  I wonder what total length difference is necessary between the E's and the G's to get both those two courses to play in tune.  Compensation for the other two courses I guess has to be worked out in the light of the slant angle. Both the slant and the actual position of the bridge, half over the cliff, look extreme; do you find this is a routine situation with getting old bowlbacks working properly?


I think the bridge position varies on an instrument by instrument basis - on the last one I did up (a Silvestri) the bridge ended up bang on top of the cant with just a touch of compensation - but on that one the "theoretical" scale length was just short of the cant:  



On this one, the "theoretical" string length took me to the cant or maybe just after - so the E string location is right on top of the cant, and by the time I slanted the bridge to get the G's in tune I was as you note, at a jaunty angle half on and half off the cant  :Disbelief:   It's not where I wanted the bridge to end up, but <shrug> I guess it has to be where it has to be.   Almost all the photos I've seen of bowlbacks show the bridge forward of the cant BTW - and the marks on the top of the ones I've had suggest this was where the factory intended them to be as well - whether any of them ever played in tune though is another matter  :Mandosmiley: 

HTH, John.

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Thanks, Tavy.  I too have been getting the impression that, as you, say, they all require different measures to get them in tune.  I suspect though that the lower the action, the less extreme the compensation needs to be.

On that matter of the bridge position changing over time, Paul Hostetter also raised the question of whether they did in fact play in tune when new.

--Bruce

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## trebleclef528

LOOK! with a start price of just 200 Euro's people will be falling over themselves for this one (come to think on it,looks like someone has already fallen over it)  :Laughing:

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## Jim Garber

> LOOK! with a start price of just 200 Euro's people will be falling over themselves for this one (come to think on it,looks like someone has already fallen over it)


Better hurry and bid, Ian. Hey, maybe you could get it for the parts. Oh those are not too good either. As we say, from time to time, a real bargain at half the price.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

My good friend and innovative Cretan luthier Nikos Rompogiannakis just finished a double soundboard classic bowl back mandolin.Worth seeing it.
http://www.nrompogianakis.com/el/Klassic%20mandolin.php

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## Jim Garber

Giannis:
Where is the second soundboard? Is it attached to the visible top like a Virzi or a Ceccherini? Also, what is that beehive looking stuff in the photos?

----------


## vkioulaphides

Regarding that unfortunate creature, a couple of posts earlier... _Questa inserzione è scaduta_, reads the subsequent announcement. No kidding, say I :-(

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## Martin Jonas

Those Rompogiannakis photos look interesting.  Looks like he vaccum-sealed the soundboard assembly sandwiched between those fabric (or "beehive" as Jim has it) looking pieces, but the reason for that is unclear to me.

Nice Youtube clip of the finished mandolin.  Difficult to put the figner on what makes it so, but somehow that's a very _Greek_ (well, Cretan, I guess) mandolin tone.  Nice tune, too -- that's one of the tunes Victor has incorporated into his Ionian mandolinata, I think!



Martin

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Jim thats two thin "skins" of wood separated by a core of an aerospace material called "honeycomb". IN the picture you see only the one piece of spruce and the honeycomb

----------


## vkioulaphides

> Difficult to put the figner on what makes it so, but somehow that's a very _Greek_ (well, Cretan, I guess) mandolin tone.  Nice tune, too -- that's one of the tunes Victor has incorporated into his Ionian mandolinata, I think!


Indeed! The Cretan element lies perhaps in the fact that, thanks to the apparently low tension of the strings, Mr. Rompogiannakis can actually _bend_ some notes, by way of ornamentation, Cretan-laouto-like. 

But the tune he is playing is in fact (as Martin correctly pinpoints it) *The Partridge*, an amorously metaphorical, quintessentially Cephalonian song. Cephalonia is one of the Ionian Islands, and the _locus dramaticus_ of the story of Captain Corelli's Mandolin-- and, of course, of the tragically true events that transpired during the brutally inglorious unwinding of World War II.

Amusingly (to me, at least), the Cretan luthier TOTALLY "mutates" the song --and I do NOT mean this as a negative criticism!-- so that, from the square but jolly, 2/4 strolling Cephalonian _cantada_, it becomes quite like a Cretan _ballos_. And why not? :-) Why shouldn't a canary "borrow" the nightingale's song?

After all, SO many Cretan musicians and artists, fleeing Crete after the Venetians were defeated by the Ottomans in the 17th century, settled in the Ionian Islands-- the family of (Conte Salamón) Dionysios Solomós, author of our national anthem among them. Provenance is therefore often obscure and contestable. Better enjoy the _music_, IMHO ;-)

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

"Why shouldn't a canary "borrow" the nightingale's song?..."

Amazing.  This is going to be a great question is reflect on over the course of the day's work and teaching.  (E 'un po' triste, anche se.)

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> Jim thats two thin "skins" of wood separated by a core of an aerospace material called "honeycomb". IN the picture you see only the one piece of spruce and the honeycomb


Giannis:
Are all of Mr. Rompogiannakis' mandolins made with a double soundboard? What is the purpose of that construction?

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

I think not.Probably that is an experiment.I met him when i went to Crete this september to teach ancient greek in a school and after that we became good luthier friends,he is innovative and open minded luthier.

Victor you are so right!

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## Jim Garber

> Why shouldn't a canary "borrow" the nightingale's song?


Even moreso: Why shouldn't a partridge "borrow" the nightingale's song?

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## Jim Garber

His Lyras are very beautiful. I like the video he has on his youtube channel. I have a lyra which I must take out and try again. Perhaps, Victor I will bring it next time we meet (hopefully soon).

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Nikiforos Aerakis is one of the greatest traditional players.

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## vkioulaphides

> Why shouldn't a partridge "borrow" the nightingale's song?


Oh, I'm ALL for multilingualism! ;-) 

But, for the truth of the matter: the Cephalonian song "Perdikoula" (diminutive of pérdika, modern Greek descendant of the ancient Greek pérdix, mythologically attributed to Daedalus' nephew-or-something, by the same name) alludes to the graceful _gait_ of the bird, not its _song_— quite frankly, I don't know that the partridge HAS much of a voice... The metaphorical allusion is to the beautiful, elegant women of Cephalonia, strolling down the seaside promenade or the cobblestone alleys in their long, pleated skirts and embroidered blouses, partridge-like. So its the _looks_ the song speaks of, not the _sound_.

That said, sure, chirp away in tongues, to your heart's delight :-)

Cheers,

Victor

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## Bob A

I seem to recall the late John Challis making soundboards for harpsichords (and clavichords?) out of aluminum with honeycomb structure. He also used non-trad materials for jacks. Some wag commented about how the interior looked like a bathroom fixture. Loud yet stable instruments, I understand.

So we have honeycomb soundboards, be they aluminium or spruce, aluminium bowls, carbon-fiber mandolins, who knows what-all. One of the many charms of the instrument is the fact that it has no archetypal form, leaving room for infinite variety.

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## brunello97

[QUOTE=vkioulaphides;788669]Oh, I'm ALL for multilingualism! ;-) 

... The metaphorical allusion is to the beautiful, elegant women of Cephalonia, strolling down the seaside promenade or the cobblestone alleys in their long, pleated skirts and embroidered blouses]

The image of which, for those of us yet to be lucky enough to travel to Greece, will be substituted for with Penelope Cruz....

Mick

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## Graham McDonald

The honeycomb stuff is Nomex,the same stuff used in fireproof suits for racing car drivers. The idea is to make a soundboard with the same stiffness but less mass. There are quite a few classical guitar makers making soundboards this way. It is a complex and trick way to do it, but those who do are enthusiastic. Have a look here for a description of how Randy Renolds does it. A google on 'nomex double top guitar' will bring up more.

cheers

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## Jim Garber

Well, it is not all that noteworthy but someone got a decent deal (I think) on this 1926 Embergher Type 1. It looks dried out tho and I have a feeling needs lots of work.

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## Jim Garber

1917 Calace on ebay Australia. Neck is snapped and maybe was coated with some finish. it is a hole-in-the-head model (I think maybe #24). OTOH it comes with a nice method book I have not seen before from 1899. I would go for just the book if i didn;t have to travel around the world to get it.

The rub is that the seller want pickup only, so I would imagine it might go for much less than it would if the rest of the world (or even Oz) would pick it up.

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## KristinEliza

ah..an "Italian Music Banjo".  I love those!

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## Martin Jonas

> Well, it is not all that noteworthy but someone got a decent deal (I think) on this 1926 Embergher Type 1. It looks dried out tho and I have a feeling needs lots of work.


I would be very concerned about the top and the neck joint: looking at the shape of that soundhole it seems to me to be very off-oval and I would think that points to either the neck having moved forward a fair deal or the top being very warped.  The former, most likely.

Martin

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## brunello97

I agree with Martin's assessment.  My guess is that the Calace is probably an easier repair than the Embergher.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Still, the Embergher is actually more in one piece, would require taking the top off, but at $300 might be a good deal even if the repairs came to $1000, right?

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## Jim Garber

> I have never played a vintage Italian bowlback by one of the big three makers.


I just happened on this quote from me from July 2004. Of course, since that I have remedied that situation.

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## brunello97

> Still, the Embergher is actually more in one piece, would require taking the top off, but at $300 might be a good deal even if the repairs came to $1000, right?


Certainly. But I admit to having no real knowledge to judge that financially or musically.  I was just speaking in terms of repair processes that I have  (a very limited) understanding of.  Dealing with a rotated bowlback neck and the subsequent top cave-in is pretty serious business, at least from what I can ascertain from the few of them that I have here with that exact problem.  (I'm trusting Martin's eyes here more than mine.....)  I shimmed the fretboard and reinforced the top on a very pretty Lanfranco bowlback only to have it cave in again after stringing with GHS ultra-lights.  No doubt Emberghers are more substantially constructed, if just as wonderfully lightweight.

My guess is that the actual repair on the Embergher would be more comprehensive than that on the legendary DeMureda that Dave Hyndes walked us through a few years back.  That was for sure an amazing process, but it was all rather straightforward work--step by step with great care and craftsmanship.  I would appreciate a re-topping and fretboard shimming on a DeMureda with problems similar to the Embergher, but I think that instrument deserves a more integral repair.  I am looking forward to the seeing the process of resetting an Italian bowlback neck revealed.  Certainly, it is being done and done well, but that is probably more akin to open-heart surgery than the mending-of-bones analogy of repairing necks, tops, etc.  I have another old Lanfranco that I plan to give it a go with this summer. Christian Barnard, I am not.

Hopefully the $300 purchaser will come round and let us know what it is all about.  Maybe the repairs would be easier than I imagine and a truly classic ebay deal was had.  That would be exciting.

Mick

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## Bruce Clausen

Nice looking 1898 maple-bowl Vinaccia in the Classifieds today, as nearby (for us in N. America) as Oklahoma. Apparently imported to the US when new. Hope someone will check it out.

BC

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## Bob A

$850/lb, or $50/inch. Couldn't figure out how to get to the photos.

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## Bruce Clausen

You're just the guy I was thinking of, Bob.  Feel like a long drive?

There used to be a builder of historic wind instruments (cornetti, Baroque flutes and oboes, etc.) in Montreal who actually did charge by length.  As I understand it, he felt this was fairer than allowing supply and demand to take over the pricing process.  I think each mm. was charged at the current Montreal price of a liter of milk.  Not sure if he continues to apply this principle.

Bruce

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## Jim Garber

I was thinking of using that as a model to rework the one I have, esp the rosette.

Here are the pics, Bob.

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## Jim Garber

Here are the rest of the pics.

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## brunello97

I think this is a very sweet looking mandolin.  I had a Favilla bowlback that was a dead knock-off of this one, so our good taste was obviously shared 100 years ago.  :Wink:   I know Bob is with me in being especially weak for maple-bowls.   This one seems in very good condition and is here on the left side of the pond.  I am very happy for whomever winds up with it (unless of course it winds up in ATsaiLandia.)

Great photos, btw. We've got another 'House of Savoy' crest there on the label.  And someone else working for La Regina besides G. de Meglio.....  What does one suppose S.M. means here?  'Stabilimento mandolino'?  'Studio Musico'?   We need M-N James back in this thread to help parse this label.

I'll admit to having been totally seduced by my Gibson and Schwab over the last year, but this is rapidly becoming "The Summer of the Bowl".  Couldn't be any better, Bob.

Mick

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## Bruce Clausen

Not "Her Majesty"?  

BC

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## brunello97

Doh.  Sua Maestà.  All too easy, Bruce.  After all the wrangling over DeMeglio (and Dan Brown in Naples) I was hoping for something more.  

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

As you'll remember from the de Meglio thread, I had already flagged up that Queen Margherita used exclusively Vinaccia mandolins.  All Fratelli Vinaccia mandolins have the crest on the label.

Martin

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## brunello97

> As you'll remember from the de Meglio thread, I had already flagged up that Queen Margherita used exclusively Vinaccia mandolins.  All Fratelli Vinaccia mandolins have the crest on the label.
> 
> Martin


Yup.  I am enjoying all this reawakening of our interests and discussions.  Trying to keep the bowl turning.

Mick

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## Bob A

Thanks for the pics, jim. It is a very tasty looking mandolin indeed. If only I didn't have a few dozen underfoot already I'd be sore tempted. I need to exchange all my rosewood bowlbacks for maple, I think.

While I didn't have anything of substance to add to the DeMeglio thread, I find it of great interest. Much worthwhile research gets done on this site; wish the internet weren't such a basically tenuous environment. Old folks like me tend to prefer text on paper for long-term knowledge storage.

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## Jim Garber

It is funny, I actually love both flavors of bowl. I have (way too) many of both, of course. Ironically, the American bowlback makers leaned to rosewood whereas in the Italy makers leaned toward maple. You would have thought that fancy flamed maple was just as available in north America and more common than rosewood.

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## Bob A

Well, I doubt that there's any real tonal difference, but somehow maple just makes me happier. Looks cool with rosewood trim too. 

Bernunzio had a Maurer bowlback that had alternating ribs of maple and rosewood. Sat unloved in his website for quite a while, then I think he traded it off. I should have bought it, but by then the collection was already ridiculous. It's the only maple example I can remember seeing by a US maker of the period.

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## Jim Garber

That singular Vega Abt that, I think, our brother Eric snapped up was a maple-bowled. OTOH Embergher charged a premium for the rosewood models. I think, given the same model that there is a difference in tone tho I could not exactly characterize it.

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## Jim Garber

Lovely, fully restored 1912 Embergher #2 being sold by Kurt DeCorte of Belgium. I have a feeling that there is a mistake because on one hand he mentions pickup only and in the description he says 40 euros to ship worldwide.

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## vkioulaphides

Were I Embergherless, I would surely go for this. Kurt's work is exemplary, and he knows these instruments well. 

Happy hunting! ;-)

Cheers,

Victor

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## Martin Jonas

> Were I Embergherless, I would surely go for this. Kurt's work is exemplary, and he knows these instruments well.


Does that mean that you're _not_ Embergherless now?  I thought your only bowlback now was your newish Calace?

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

No, in fact I do have a lovely Model 1, in truly _impeccable_ condition, with a new (5bis-type) bridge made by Kurt. All else on the instrument is original; the vintage is 1938, and the series numbers pinpoint it at around the time when the transfer/transition to Cerrone's administration would have been taking place, if I'm not mistaken. I acquired this instrument about a year and a half ago.

I don't have an image handy, but it is much like the one below:

http://www.embergher.com/index.php?id=61

I am in a strange, "perpetual interim" relationship with this instrument: while I do play it regularly, I have yet to perform on it. Perhaps my primeval habituation to flat fingerboards and U-shaped necks always pulls me back to the Calace; or perhaps I haven't yet "cracked the code" of the Embergher's specs, vis-a-vis how it all fits in my hands. I do love it, though, and hope to come to terms with it. In the meanwhile, on stage (e.g. tonight), it will be me and my trusty Calace ;-)

Cheers,

Victor

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## Jim Garber

Victor's mandolin is indeed a lovely one. I was there when he first met it via the capable hands of our mutual friend from Antwerp. 

In the meantime, this 18th Century-style mandolin came onto my mando-radar. Interesting, tho unless this were some sort of known maker -- I have not heard of him, but i am not really aware of makers that far back -- I think the price is high, esp unrestored. Curious... i would love to know more.

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## Margriet

Jim:
interesting.......I suppose also rare.
I found this in the book of Janssens, geschiedenis van de mandoline: (translated)
*Giuseppe da Maria*
Makes violins in Naples, but is especially known by his mandolins.
Label: Joseph de Maria fecit
         Napoli 1771.
or:     Joseph di Maria di Nap.
         in Strada S Pietro a Maiella
         feci in Napoli Ano Dni 1778.

Hope this helps a tiny little bit.
I did not know that Joseph were the child of Maria.......I have heard the story in another way.........

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## Bob A

Thankfully Kurt's instrument is not maple, else I'd eat my liver in unrequited mando-lust. I can only hope that Victor's Embergher is maple; like a doddering dirty old man, most of my pleasure derives from drooling over what I cannot have. 

1912 was a very good year; the cusp of Cerrone as well. So much to savor in these toys.

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## Jim Garber

Getting back to di Maria... I found a listing for him in Henley's:




> Maria Giuseppe  di, Worked in Naples, 1770-1780. ...[descriptions of violins]... Celebrated for guitars and mandolins.

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## vkioulaphides

> Thankfully Kurt's instrument is not maple, else I'd eat my liver in unrequited mando-lust. I can only hope that Victor's Embergher is maple.


Gosh... I'd hate to see you as self-consuming _foie gras_, Bob... But no, my Embergher has a rosewood bowl, much like the one on the site I referenced. And that's just fine with me :-) I seem to not have caught the "maple bug". Still, should one crave both this particular wood and this illustrious luthier's creatures, Embergher's Tipo A mandolins usually come in maple, if I'm not mistaken, and they do on occasion come up for sale. Thus dirty old men _can_ in fact have what they crave— provided some patience, of course.

Cheers,

Victor

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## Jim Garber

Here is a nice-looking Maple-bowled Vinaccia for you, Bob... or anyone else.

My only fear would be need for a neckset. Note the bridge position.

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## vkioulaphides

It's always a guess, whether the bridge is where it is by _conscious_ choice (i.e. because that's where it would need to be for the purpose of compensating for faulty intonation, caused in turn by a warped neck, sunken top, or both) or by sheer _ignorance_ (i.e because someone put it there at random, thinking that "that's where it goes").

When the seller apologizes for such "damage" as a broken string (!) you've got to ask yourself: are you dealing with structural damage of the instrument, or blank ignorance of the vendor? Anyone's guess...

Cheers,

Victor

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## Jim Garber

yes, a lot of this eBay stuff is based on conjecture. My feeling is that people might put the bridge in the position that keeps the strings nice and low. Then again, take a look at this photo. Looks like it needs a neck reset or a canted fretboard in order to play.

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## vkioulaphides

Ee-oo... yes, bring on that "canted fretboard"! A neck reset is no small job, for all I know, so the cost of it all should be duly discounted from the "as is" purchase price. Yes, you are right, the geometry of this instrument is kind of scary...

_Caveat emptor_, and all that.

Cheers,

Victor

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## Jim Garber

Well, it is similar to my recently acquired Vinaccia. Mine has a secondary, reptile-dentistry-influenced double decker fretboard. Once day I may have it fixed up. The saving grace is that it is a quality instrument. 

I had a friend who was willing to put money into fixing a nice Antonio Grauso mandolin and he had it made playable by replacing the fretboard. Very nice playing and sounding instrument, tho he probably paid for the repairs much more than the thing was worth Ah, the love of these babies.

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## Schlegel

I think about the guys with 5 or 10 rusted vintage automobiles and thank my lucky stars.  Mandolins are so tiny, light, and easy to store.   Cheap, too!

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## Jim Garber

Yeah, however my "garage" is getting a little cramped.

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## Bob A

Oh, no, not another Luthier's Special. TC has been "working" on two of mine for the better part of a decade; I have two more that need restoration, but I don't have the heart to get involved again with that sort of thing. 

Pity, too; one is a late Fratelli Vinaccia that I suspect had been "improved" in Ciani's shop, possibly in the D'Angelico era, the other a Martin style 6. Both well deserve attention, but not until my others return; or failing that, upon their passing from me into my estate. (I hope to survive until the TC repairs are done, but the shock might do me in).

Self-consuming foie gras, forsooth. I commend my delicately prepared remains to my fellow in the Order of the Bowl, that my soul might remain within my family.

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## Jim Garber

While we are on the subject of our mortality: I would like to be buried in a Luthier's Special liuto cantabile bowl. Thanks for asking!! :-)

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## vkioulaphides

You guys are spooking me out... _Dum vivimus, vivamus_, I'd rather say. 

As for those vintage beauties enshrined in the vaults and niches of Our Lady of the Perpetual Restoration, ah... that's why I candidly own my bias for new(ish) instruments. Were I afforded some mandolinistic reincarnation, I might think otherwise.

Cheers,

Victor

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## Jim Garber

I certainly see your point but frankly I think bob's case with TC's work is the ultimate extreme. Frankly, by this point I would yank those jewels away from him and take it to a luthier who has the time and know-how to complete them. Enough is enough!! Bob is way too nice.

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## brunello97

Jim, I think I understand some of what your friend with the Grauso was thinking.  My wife likens me to the young girl she was bringing home an injured grouse or some other bird.  This is the summer I get this flock of bowls out (or was that last summer?)

On other note, I found this image on the ebay just now and it made me think of Alex's recent post. A fairly Alpine looking bunch here.  Is the large bowl a liuto of some kind?  It looks smaller than Alex's (this guy certainly doesn't look bigger than AT.)

Mick

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## vkioulaphides

I only see 8 tuning-pegs, Mick, not 10— thus mandoloncello, not liuto cantabile. Also, some Romanesque 'celli are rather slender. I saw a GLORIOUS Embergher mandoloncello at the Museum of Musical Instruments in Antwerp that was irresistibly... huggable ;-) I believe that their scale, too, is small-ish, some 58 (+/-) cm., as opposed, say, to Calace's 61. The liuto that Alex plays (SO wonderfully!) is a remarkably large instrument.

Cheers,

Victor

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## JeffD

> On other note, I found this image on the ebay just now


Can you imagine if Bill Monroe had played a bowlback, and worn socks like those. The whole world would be different.

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## vkioulaphides

On huggable mandoloncellos:

http://www.mandolin.be/ (Look under "History", see pictures, etc.)

Cheers,

Victor

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## Martin Jonas

After all the discussion of De Meglios recently, here is a Model 2 on Ebay UK with a highish starting price considering previous Ebay sales prices.  I have to say I prefer the wood binding of the lower models to the inlaid tortoiseshell (celluloid?) binding of the higher ones.

So, what is the model number sequence for De Meglios?  It seems to me (low to high): C - B - A - 1A - 2 - 3 - ?.  Any other model numbers?  I think there may also be a Model 1 (without "A").

And just to illustrate the point about De Melgio clones being rather cruder than real ones: here is a Fratelli Bellini, and here is a De Mureda (a name I don't normally associated with De Meglio clones -- this one is pretty weird).

Martin

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## Bob A

I believe there exists a "Zero" De Meglio. unfortunately I can't confirm; it's one that has disappeared into the "repair zone" some years ago. If I ever see it again I'll try to remember to update the info, if I'm not deceased or demented by then.

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## Jim Garber

> On huggable mandoloncellos:
> 
> http://www.mandolin.be/ (Look under "History", see pictures, etc.)


Here is the picture from Ralf's site.

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## Jim Garber

> After all the discussion of De Meglios recently, here is a Model 2 on Ebay UK with a highish starting price considering previous Ebay sales prices.  I have to say I prefer the wood binding of the lower models to the inlaid tortoiseshell (celluloid?) binding of the higher ones.


I also am not sure what that rectangular thing is on the last photo. Could be a sticker... or worse. The price is not horrible yet, but we will see if it sells.

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## vkioulaphides

In answer to your question: velcro ;-)

Thanks for extrapolating that image, Jim. In fact, it was THE Embergher mandoloncello of the venerable Romain van den Bosch (founder of La Napolitaine) that is housed at said museum, behind glass casing— I don't know whether one should feel glad or sad about that; I tend towards the latter, but that's just me. It was, I am told, the widow's wish, and that's that. It is a gem of an instrument, bearing the owner's insignia, engraved in a silver square, right on the finial. *sigh*

Cheers,

Victor

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## Jim Garber

Oh man... I agree with you Victor. I wonder if the widow did not want anyone to play it or would allow musicians to take it out and play in a concert. I know they do that at the Met Museum. Strange to have wonderful instruments sitting unplayed. What is the point?

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## vkioulaphides

Another, perfectly acceptable use for this gorgeous 'cello would be to have a trustworthy luthier (or two, or three) take detailed specs of the instrument, and preserve _those_ for posterity. While I have no way of knowing what the playability of the original is —it _looked_ fine, but who's to say?— perhaps superb replicas can be built. 

Yes, I know about how the mandoloncello is "acoustically challenged", how its scale ~should~ be longer for it to resonate fully and freely, etc. While not casting doubt on those frequently mentioned difficulties, uhm... so is the double bass, which I play each and every day, for 30-some years now: the "acoustically ideal" double bass would be over 17 ft tall (!) and thus... humanly, physically unplayable. Yet there _are_ splendid-sounding basses, and in fact I've played some of them myself!

So, given the "key to the riddle" by the Ghost of Luigi, some talented, present-day luthier(s) might be able to continue the lineage. Imagine, for example, the specs of this beautiful instruments, readily downloadable, falling into the hands of, say... Brian Dean ;-)

But that's me, daydreaming...

Cheers,

Victor

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## brunello97

Martin, I have some De Mureda examples in my files with side-vents, but they are f-hole shaped rather than De Meglioid. Attached is  a label from a model 1 De Meglio.  I looked at the ebay offering you posted as the recent conversation got an itch going for me.  I agree that the price seems (relatively) high.  I suspected a 'Mandolin Cafe Bounce' but the seller doesn't seem to be regularly involved in the instrument trade.  This one appears in good condition, despite the mystery patch on the back.  

More about the mandocellos......

Mick

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## Alex Timmerman

> I saw a GLORIOUS Embergher mandoloncello at the Museum of Musical Instruments in Antwerp that was irresistibly... huggable ;-) I believe that their scale, too, is small-ish, some 58 (+/-) cm., as opposed, say, to Calace's 61. The liuto that Alex plays (SO wonderfully!) is a remarkably large instrument.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Victor


Hi Victor & all,

Indeed the Mandoloncelli are large instruments and the Liuto cantabile (Liuto moderno) is even larger. As I have pointed out at the _Kioulaphides' Prelude_ topic there are two main Liuto cantabile types - that is, at the end of the instrument's development -; a smaller - yet bigger than a Mandoloncello - one and an even larger orchestra type. The (mensura) swinging stringlength of the large orchestra type I play in the video is 68.5 cm. That is huge... and hard work. But the resonance and sound is so rich that the instrument just 'invites' you to go on and play. Very rewarding, I must say.

To have an idea about the difference in size of the instruments mentioned here I have attached two photos of me holding the Liuto cantabile and the Embergher Mandoloncello.


Best, 

Alex.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> The (mensura) swinging stringlength of the large orchestra type I play in the video is 68.5 cm.


GOOD HEAVENS!!! 

Amazing, simply amazing...

Three cheers for long strings, and those who play them so well!

Victor

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## brunello97

Fantastic photos, Alex.  Thanks for posting them.  You are a good scale figure.  Like VK, I am originally un bassista-though mine was a gorgeous maple-neck Fender.  The low-end never leaves you.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I am thoroughly honored to have acquired this 1904 style 3 Embergher. Thanks tons to Charley Nelson of Montgomery Violins (also an active poster on this forum). here are a few photos.

It obviously needs some restoration work but I think it is structurally sound with nice flat top and straight fretboard.

----------


## Ali

VERY nice Jim, That'll be a beauty when its fully restored - though looks in reasonable nick now....I like model 3 Emberghers, understated but extremely beautiful and elegant and with a lovely voice usually. 1904 - boy, thats a nice early one too. Well done you!
Not that I'm JEALOUS or anything.....
 :Grin:  :Mandosmiley: 
Can you post more pics and a report on the "voice" when its been restored?
Thanks

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Congratulations Jim! 

What a wonderful catch! I'm sure this _must_ sound really nice!


Cheers,

Alex

----------


## etbarbaric

Jim,

Very nice!  And a rosewood back too! Congratulations.  Keep us informed as you make her sing!

Best,

Eric

----------


## brunello97

Good news, Jim. I agree with Ali on the "understated but.....elegant."  Do you have someone in mind to do the restoration work?

Mick

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## vkioulaphides

Congratulations! Lovely, indeed :-)

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

Wow!

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## JeffD

That inlay on the slotted peg head is very nice. It might not be all that uncommon, I don't recall off hand seeing inlay work on an open, slotted peg head like that, except for some guitars maybe.




Oh, and congratulations ye bowl heads for 200 pages of great comments and insight and bowlback arcana.  This has always been one of my favorite threads!

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## Jim Garber

Yes, this style 3 in rosewood is evidently pretty uncommon. It is interesting once you get into the minutiae of a single maker: I realized that this one, being pretty early is very likely touched by the very hand of the man who signed it as the workshop was smaller at that time.

After 1900, style 3 had an inlay most with a twisted vine-like, but many are of a slightly different look. This one was made from the same pearl pieces as the rosette. With the exception of the amateur repairs on the back the mandolin is in good shape – the top is nice and even and the fretboard looks very straight. I wish I could strin git up already but have to have some patience to get it worked on by the right person.

----------


## pdb

Congratulations on a wonderful instrument.  I look forward to reading your review when you have it ready.

----------


## Acquavella

Jim, 

Congrats on a fine looking Embergher. This is number 2 for you, isn't it? You are becoming quite the Embergher collector. Can't wait to hear the finished product. Cheers. 

Chris

----------


## vkioulaphides

I know that Kurt makes Embergher-style bridge "blanks"; will you get one from him, and have it fitted? I would be very interested in following the whole process, if you care to share. The instrument looks quite healthy, which is of course what matters most. The missing fittings —if in fact they are missing, and not simply off the instrument and in a pouch somewhere— are secondary.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks all for your kind words. I am very lucky to acquire this beauty. I am actually considering having Kurt do the work, since I can't really imagine anyone on this side of the Atlantic knowledgeable enough to do it completely right.

It is missing the bridge but has the original tailpiece and nut. This was evidently before Luigi used a zero fret so it has a standard bone or ivory nut.

Yes I have two Emberghers, my type A student model (maple) for which I am forever endebted to Martin and now this one. I have always felt that the style three was the most attractive to me. OTOH I would not sneeze if someone handed me a 5 bis either.  :Smile:

----------


## Dan Hoover

very nice,love the inlay,very pretty...lucky you..

----------


## Fliss

Congratulations, Jim, that looks really lovely!

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

> Can you post more pics and a report on the "voice" when its been restored?
> Thanks


I would love to, tho it may be quite awhile. If I go with Kurt, he is booked up into the fall already.

----------


## Margriet

Congratulations, Jim !

It seems to be an elegant instrument with character and a good sound. I am curious to hear it. 
I agree that she deserves a good restoration.

Is it the same mandolin that was mentioned in the beginning of March at the thread "show a picture of your bowlback" ?

----------


## margora

"The (mensura) swinging stringlength of the large orchestra type I play in the video is 68.5 cm. That is huge... and hard work."

Yes, indeed, 68.5cm is long.  Not as long as my 13-course baroque lute (in D-minor tuning), though -- 73cm on the fingerboard, diapsons (courses 12-13) are 78cm.  Much easier to play Bach (lute suites, cello suites, sonatas and partitas, what have you) on mandolin, mandola or classical guitar but sounds better on the lute.  I am thinking that, one of these days, I will transcribe Differencias (or the Suite) into french tab for the 13-course and see what it sounds like.  Differencias sounds very good on my 10-course (in renaissance tuning), 67cm scale, tuned at the moment in A=415.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "I am thinking that, one of these days, I will transcribe... the Suite into French tab for the 13-course and see what it sounds like.


Oh, I am sure it will sound SPLENDID! It will also of course enhance the "illusion of antiquity", so to speak ;-)

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

I don't think we took note of this Vinaccia. Price is getting up there with 5 hours+ to go.

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Ouch!  Looks like it's been stepped on.  Would any of us call that "a slight crack on the face"?  

Eight photos of the case seems excessive.

BC

----------


## brunello97

> I don't think we took note of this Vinaccia. Price is getting up there with 5 hours+ to go.


Yes, tenaciously.  This was bid up around $900 in about a minute and a half.  It is hard to gauge the crack in the top.  It certainly is long, and may be photographing worse than it actually is.  The lighting on a couple shots make it seem like it has actually creased, but the soundhole doesn't seem distorted.  The lead bidder seems to be from the continent, shrugging off our discussion of the euro/$ realignment.  

Mick

----------


## brunello97

> Ouch!  Looks like it's been stepped on.  Would any of us call that "a slight crack on the face"?  
> 
> Eight photos of the case seems excessive.
> 
> BC


The case seems in better shape than the mandolin, Bruce.  I don't think I've ever seen one of these leather 'holster' style cases with the straps intact.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I could not tell from the photo but I would have to agree with Bruce. The last one recently went for (I think) $700 but might need a neck reset. This one is only slightly fancier with inlaid scratchplate and tacky/tacked on metal headstock ornament. Unless the bidder know something I don't.

----------


## Jim Garber

> The case seems in better shape than the mandolin, Bruce.  I don't think I've ever seen one of these leather 'holster' style cases with the straps intact.


"Clown shoe" is the proper technical term. :-)

----------


## vkioulaphides

Now, that's one, _fine_-looking mandolin-case, Jim! 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bruce Clausen

> The case seems in better shape than the mandolin, Bruce.  I don't think I've ever seen one of these leather 'holster' style cases with the straps intact.
> 
> Mick


Well, they're original, but broken.  Mine (same case) looks like it got new straps in the 1950s or so.

Just noticed I had the honour to be the 5000th poster here.  I read the whole thread a few months back, by the way.  Truly fascinating, in a strange and somewhat worrying way.  Many thanks to all the regular contributors.

----------


## Strider

Here`s my 1957 German made Bowl back for sale on ebay. ( Hope this not break the rules etc on here,if it does please delete )

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...T#ht_500wt_947

----------


## Jim Garber

A rather sloppy Embergherish copy.

----------


## brunello97

Jim, I'd seen this earlier today and after being the skeptic viz the 'Larson' thought I'd let someone more knowledgeable call this one out; (I have my own fauxEmbergher that I will be parting ways with soon.)  However clunky some of the detailing may be it still appears to have taken some effort to get things 'wrong.'  $1200 for a bad copy or $1950 for the real thing?

BTW did the dragon scratchplate ever come along with the slotted headstock on legitimate models?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> BTW did the dragon scratchplate ever come along with the slotted headstock on legitimate models.


Yes, on the style 4 orchestra but not with that plain bowl which resembles one of the student models.

----------


## brunello97

Despite some pointed questioning, the seller seems tenacious about his attribution. I guess it is worth the shot, hoping for a ringer, but I wonder if the seller might do better coming clean and selling it as a copy.  I hope no-one winds up getting fooled. 

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

For your entertainment... Marco (I assume our friend from Roma) asked him point blank. I can certainly see the sellers points but not his expertise.




> Q:  	Hi, how cn you say that this is an Embergher mandolin? There are no similar model in Embergher production. Is there embergher stamp at least on the neck (near the tuning machine)? Or is there his signature inside? Best regards Marco 	May-30-10
> A:  	If you visit the Embergher website listed in the auction, and go to the "Instruments" link, then to "Mandolino per concertista e solista", you will see the identical soundhole inlay and pickguard shape. The inlay & engraving that appears on mine is not pictured, but they did, I'm sure, custom work if you had the $$. And, like most companies, only put representative pictures into the catalogs, while offering many variations upon the models. If you look at the "Mandolino per orchestra" models you will see the exact same headstock shape and design. The fingerboard inlay is also the same as many of the mandolins that are shown. As with all Emberghers, there is a slope downward from bass to treble on the nut, fingerboard, and bridge. This can be seen on the "History" link of the website, about halfway thru the page. Also, Embergher is responsible for the addition of the "zero fret", which this mandolin has. Also, as per the article, this neck has a sharp "v" neck, more-so than most instruments. The inside is lined with thin spruce strips perpendicular to the ribs, and they are coated with glue. So, any remnants of glue residue from a missing label are not visible to the naked eye. There is also a repaired, glue covered joint, so the label might have been removed before that repair was done? I have no way to know. So, while there are no identifying marks on the instrument, it has all the characteristics of an Embergher, and based upon all of the similarities to the mandolins pictured on the Embergher website, other reading I have done, and conversations with others in the musical instrument world, I'm calling it an Embergher. HTH... dk

----------


## KristinEliza

wow...

----------


## vkioulaphides

Rarely has the phrase _caveat emptor_ been so perfectly apposite...

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

Here is a link to another mis-understood and sad case of what once was a fine student type B mandolin...


http://cgi.ebay.de/Antike-Mandoline-...a#ht_500wt_947

Best, Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

Alex... do you mean the lopped off fretboard?

----------


## Jim Garber

I would say that this one is certainly a bowlback of note from William Petit's site.

I have attached a few of the photos of this instruments which has history as well. I think the pile of plectra would be worth the price which, I imagine, might be near the cost of a small car.

----------


## vkioulaphides

SPECTACULAR! (In _rosewood_, too... that strikes me as rare, although others may know better.)

When I come into possession of that seven-digit inheritance (bequeathed to me by my favorite, Unknown Uncle ;-) _that's_ the instrument I'd like to have. If said estate is in only in the _low_ seven digits, then I'd commission Hendrik or Sr. Lippi to make me one just like it, minus the vintage/rarity premium— adding up to the price of a smaller yet car ;-)

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

It is funny, tho. The one thing I don't like about the Embergher aesthetic is the dragon. I prefer the plain scratchplate of the 5bis. I suppose that if someone gave it to me...

----------


## vkioulaphides

Dreadfully uncanonical... the _Greek_ version should surely depict St. Michael _Slaying_ the Dragon ;-) But, as you say, if someone actually _gave_ it to me, I'd make an exception, just this once. 

Wasn't it Ali who once said that Sr. Pecoraro put some other (floral?) design on the instrument he once built for her, thinking that dragons were inappropriate "for girls"? I recall something hilarious like that; the details escape me.

When you commission yours, Jim, you must request something sufficiently manly, yet less ferocious. An artistic abstraction, in layered marquetry, inspired by the splendid foliage of New York State, perhaps?

Too many ideas, too little money...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Ali

Yes - my 1985 Pecoraro had flowers on instead of the dragon as he knew it was for a young girl - I was mortified at the time - I wanted a Dragon! I got over it though and guess I ended up quite liking the flowers, though that mandolin never really quite made it into my heart and was replaced with Baby 3 years later.
Ali

----------


## Margriet

This reminds me an ebay advertisement of an Embergher 1924 Typo B and a Concerto nr 3,  in the beginning of Mai. It seemed that somebody was selling a whole Embergher collection. There was this in the advertisement: 
_Da collezione mia privata vendo Mandolino Embergher del 1924 modello B in ottimissime condizioni come da foto, completo di custodia per collezionisti e musicisti. Il mandolino è visibile in Torino, è gradito anche il ritiro di persona. In asta c'è anche  il modello n. 3 da concerto. Prossimamente metterò in asta il n. 4 dell'Embergher, il n. 5., il n. 5 bis e il n. 6._

So the seller had also a nr 6. Maybe it is the same, bought by William Petit, I think so....... Maybe not and it is still there. Anybody interested ? 
I still have the name of the seller on eBay.

----------


## Jim Garber

What I find interesting about the dragon is that he or she seems to be either reading a book and holding some plant or flowers or else is singing and reading the music. Anyone know what the significance of this is?

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Looks like one of those dragons that get angry at everything they read.

Bringing things down to a much lower level, I see a nice looking Washburn on Craigslist in Vancouver:

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/rd...779036228.html

From photos and a catalogue page posted somewhere around here, I take it this is model 235.  Anyone here have impressions of that model?  He wants real money, but if the condition is as stated it doesn't seem excessive. I'll be trying to get a look at it.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> Looks like one of those dragons that get angry at everything they read.


I fully and totally empathize; just about everything I read (in the news, that is) infuriates me.  :Mad:  I just withhold breathing fire for reasons of civility. 

Nice Washburn, though.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Martin Jonas

That Washburn does look good in the photos, and the advantage with buying locally through Craigslist is that you can have a good detailed look yourself.  Price is about OK if as described, I'd say -- roughly what I paid for a Ceccherini in similarly good condition.

Regarding the Embergher dragon, the "book" looks like music to me, and there's a laurel wreath around it.  Is any of the celebrated Italian composers publically identified with a dragon?  There may be an allegorical opera connection here, but what it might be escapes me.  I also much prefer the plain scratchplate.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Martin, Paolo Conte is the first name that comes to mind viz The Dragon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59D5pvbyFS8

though the kazoo may be an acquired taste and not what Sig. Embergher had in mind at all.  The Washburn does look very nice, and if even tacitly comped with a Ceccherini that is meaningful.  I've only played more modest Washburns but they were good instruments.  The price is serious, but it looks like a serious mandolin. Bowlback prices seem on the rise, so Bruce this might be a good thing given its pristine condition.  Please let us know what you find.

Mick

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Thank you, Mick and Victor.  I wouldn't be surprised if in fact an opera scene is evoked on the Embergher scratchplate.  As far as the CL Washburn goes, I'm on the road now and won't be able to see it till next week.  Fact is, I'll be somewhat relieved if someone else buys it.  But if called upon I shall do my duty.

----------


## vkioulaphides

In the meanwhile, another Embergher has surfaced:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...942#post808942

It must be high season... ;-)

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## mrmando

Here are photos of said Embergher. Dated 1919, condition looks pretty good. Anyone care to take a stab at its value?

----------


## Jim Garber

Well, it is a style three and looks like it is in pretty good condition. Hard to tell anything from those dark photos. Non-original bridge and no tailpiece cover. My only concern would be if the neck needs some sort of reset... hard to tell from the photos. The bowl looks like it is in very good shape. If I just didn't buy my 1904 I would jump on this one, assuming it is in good shape.

Martin Stillion... where did you get these pictures. What happened to the OP?

----------


## mrmando

I got them from the OP...

----------


## Jim Garber

I figured as much. The main things to be concerned here are warpage on the top and neck angle. More and clearer pics always help. it might also help to know where the OP is located.

----------


## Richard Walz

My gosh, that looks like one of the Embergher's I had some years ago. Sold it to a student of Ali. It was (is) a nice instrument with a more finger friendly width to the neck.

----------


## Jim Garber

So, Richard... how was the fretboard replaced to make it wider? I would think one would have to widen the neck as well.

----------


## Jim Garber

Richard:
I checked my files and the only N.3 Embergher I have from you is one from 1920 with a maple bowl. Did you have another rosewood one before that?

----------


## vkioulaphides

What, uh... IS that bridge?!?

----------


## Jim Garber

> What, uh... IS that bridge?!?


Looks like bone to me. However that other view -- the once look like they were taken with a cell phone -- it looks like a maple piece of wood and pretty roughly done. I don't think it was the same bridge. In either case, it is not an Embergher style bridge. Here is one on a 1923 No.3.

----------


## mrmando

More photos. 

Appears to be one crack or very deep scratch in a rib, and another on the neck. The bridge does seem to be made of bone.

Pretty sure the OP is on the East Coast. I'll try to get a more precise location and suggest that he have it looked at.

----------


## Tavy

FYI, I seem to remember Jake Wildwood experimenting with an all bone bridge on a bowlback and found that it worked really very well.  Of course it's hardly "original" in this case....

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Mandolin after the work of 20th century(1900-1940) greek makers(Mourtzinos,I.G.Stathopoulos)
http://trixorda.blogspot.com/2010/06/blog-post_15.html

----------


## Jim Garber

Giannis: did you build that mandolin? Very beautiful.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Thank you Jim.It's my construction.This is my "greek" model.Right now i am working on a Roman Style- after the Lorenzo  Lippi Embergher plans-but not an exact copy.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Bravo! Very, VERY beautiful! (I also appreciate the fact that you list all the materials on your site.)

May I ask: what did you do, as regards the construction of the top? (i.e. the soundboard) As you know, the more recent mandolin-builders in Greece have built their tops without a cant; I have always thought that this was because they were primarily bouzouki-builders, and that they "transposed" the techniques of building bouzoukis to mandolins, as well. (This, in contrast to the earlier builders, around the turn of the 19th/20th century, who built canted tops, in the Neapolitan tradition.)

I am told that some of the builders of "cantless" tops place braces underneath, so as to "induce" a certain, slight arch. Is that what you did? I ask because, without the three-dimensional object in my hands, it is hard for me to discern by looking at the images— beautiful as those might be. I'd be curious to know.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Victor: You asked the question in my mind also!!

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Thank you Victor! Probably i will upload a video in Youtube
I am not a bouzouki maker only, and i try to prepare and study every step in instrument making.
As i wrote on the site, i follow the Mourtzinos, Stathopoulos (I had the opportunity to study many of their instruments) tradition which is very very close in the Neapolitan Tradition.
The top is canted the traditional way. Some modern makers(in greece) don't do that, they think is completely unnecessary

----------


## vkioulaphides

Scary, isn't it? ;-) But you (Jim) and I were on this topic recently, vis-a-vis Greek _mandolas_. With the proportionately larger acreage of a mandola's top, I'm a ~tad~ anxious that there would be grave and irreparable sinkage before long. So, while I may have dreamed (I confess, I confess) of owning a bowlback mandola some day, I've held back, put off by said anxiety.

I am also friends with a violist member of the Greek National Opera, who had had the same gut reaction when he saw Greek mandolas with uncanted tops. "Won't those sink?", he asked, almost instinctively. So, I'd love to know.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## vkioulaphides

> As i wrote on the site, i follow the Mourtzinos, Stathopoulos (I had the opportunity to study many of their instruments) tradition which is very very close in the Neapolitan Tradition. The top is canted the traditional way. Some modern makers(in greece) don't do that, they think is completely unnecessary


Yes, considering you mention those luthiers as your "models", so to speak, I suspected that there _is_ in fact a cant, however slight. That would be just right, according to tradition.

As for those who feel that the cant is "completely unnecessary", I have a four-letter word for them: s-i-n-k Absent the canted geometry, or sufficient and appropriate inner bracing to induce and arch, the top has but one way to go, under the pressure of the strings: downwards :-(

Thank you for your explanation, Gianni. Yes, I'd love to see (and hear) more of this lovely instrument you built.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Thank you Victor.The picture is not the right one to show the cant.Before it's travel to Cyprus i will take some more photos.
Thank you once more

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting handful of mandolins (mostly) sold on the 16th at Bonhams auction house.  Here are the ones that sold:




> 56 	Mandolins
> A Neapolitan Mandolin by Guiseppe Vinaccia 1892 (2) 	£552
> 57 	Mandolins
> A Neapolitan Mandolin by Carlo Rinaldi (1) 	£360
> 59 	Mandolins
> A Mandolin by Alfredo Albertini (2) 	£72
> 60 	Mandolins
> A Neapolitan Mandolin by Luigi Poppi, circa 1900 (1) 	£26
> 62 	Mandolins
> ...


Among one that did not sell was a DeMeglio. Was anyone at that auction? Interesting that the plainer Vinaccia sold for more than the fancier one. Might be a matter of condition?

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice looking, simply adorned, 1910, style 24(?) Calace mandolin on eBay Germany.

Here are a few pics for historical purposes.

----------


## Fliss

I like the look of that Calace, Jim.  One day I'm going to buy another Calace, as I regret selling the one I had, but probably not very soon.  

Fliss

----------


## Fliss

Confession time - that Calace got relisted at a much lower opening bid, so I bid.... and it will be on its way to me!!!!  I have been wanting for a while to buy a Calace, but hadn't intended to do it just yet, I just gave in to temptation  :Smile:  

Needless to say I'll post a report and pics when I have it!

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

Congratulations (again) to you, Fliss!!

----------


## billkilpatrick

complimenti - beautiful looking instrument.

----------


## Jim Garber

Did any of the bowlheads here score this Embergher 3?

----------


## Chey49

There is a Calace Mandolin for sale on ebay item #230495130621 and I was wondering if anyone may have additional info. on this mandolin, maybe its worth etc.  Thanks

----------


## Jim Garber

Re: this Calace on eBay: 

That seller had a large collection of high-end and not so high end instruments most at very high prices. This is a higher end Calace and I am sure is a nice instrument but there was another Calace at 1/2 the price. of course, I am not sure of the condition...

Personally, I don't like the aesthetics of this model and would prefer a simpler one. I think this model is the 16bis.

----------


## Bob A

I've seen fancier for less. Unless you're in the market for froufrou, look for something simpler - less worry, fewer problems, lower price.

----------


## billkilpatrick

couldn't agree more.  a very un-bowl-brotherly sentiment but - hand on heart - i think they all sound the same ...

----------


## Chey49

Thanks everyone for the info, I hope to find a really nice classical mandolin soon

----------


## billkilpatrick

> couldn't agree more.  a very un-bowl-brotherly sentiment but - hand on heart - i think they all sound the same ...


i take that back ... MOST recordings of bowlbacks sound REMARKABLY similar in tone ... to the inexperienced ear ... in my limited experience ... howz'at?

----------


## Jim Garber

Someone got a decent deal on this 1929 Tipo A Embergher. Anyone here? Looks like it was possibly refinished, probably professionally.

----------


## Jim Garber

1929 Embergher A pics

----------


## Martin Jonas

Nice Tipo A.  I think you're right that this has been refinished, but looks a decent job.  I'm a bit disconcerted by the suggestion that "maybe inside there is a brace a little loose", as it's not clear why he may suspect this.  Nice tight figure on the spruce top -- my 1915 Tipo A has similar quality wood, but a lot of 1920s ones I have seen seem to have very irregular and/or wide figure.

Should be a good buy for the successful bidder.

Martin

----------


## Benjamin T

The top looks to have been repaired as well. I would also guess that the neck was not refinished.  It sure is a handsome/ beautiful mandolin.

----------


## Martin Jonas

This one is a fairly rare (though not unique) creature: a bowlback using the Gelas double-top system.  French, of course, one of the ones made by "J.R.", and dated 1932 on the label.

Link

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Those Gelas mandolins make me nervous for some reason. I guess the concept -- to have the tension opposite the downward direction of a more standard mandolin.

----------


## dave17120

........ I can tell you they are horrible to work on...... you can't get at anything through the soundhole, as everything bends away from you!! Dave

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting Piccolo mandolin sold by the collector who has quite a few high-priced items on eBay.

----------


## dave17120

Not come across a piccolo before, how would it have been tuned???? Dave

----------


## Jim Garber

My piccolos with a full size Vega (for comparison): Leland (by L&H) and some unlabelled American one. I believe that Bob Annis has a nice Italian bowlback piccolo. Tuning could be cgda, once octave above a mandoliola or American mandola.

----------


## rctil40

Hi, I'm looking for a first bowlback - not a special one, but a playable and reasonably nice one for baroque/classical music, what do you think of these? Thanks.


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT


Ritchie

----------


## Jim Garber

Of the four, with a very quick look, I like the Ferrari the best. The first one looks like a piece of junk made for tourists, to be blunt, in a sort of Roman style. The second is a DeMeglio clone and could be decent if set up properly. The fourth one, i agree with the seller, is probably German and might be decent but the bridge looks like it is sitting on or below the cant and it should be on the fretboard side of the cant. Usually this is located there because the action is way too high otherwise. This seller says he sets these up professionally, so i would be hesitant.

If I were you I would find a shop that has a few bowlbacks and play them. You didn't say this was your first mandolin, just your first bowlback. I would check them out in person rather than trying to get a bargain on eBay.

----------


## rctil40

Thanks Jim, very helpful and quick! I would love to try some in a shop, but no such shop exists in Scotland to my knowledge. I know the pitfalls of ebay from bitter experience but I cant find any other source. 

Ritchie

----------


## Martin Jonas

I would agree with Jim's assessment: the Ferrari is the most promising one.  Ferraris aren't great, but they can be decent if structurally sound.  However, it has a reserve so there's no knowing how high you would have to go to get it.  I don't think I'd personally go any higher than, say, 75 Pounds on this one.

Looking at what else is out there, here is another Ferrari.  The photos say little about condition because they are taken from a strange angle, but it's low and doesn't have a reserve.

A bit higher at current bids, but still potentially a good buy is this Giuseppe Puglisi.  Our Cafe member Plami is a big Puglisi fan, but I'm not sure whether "Giuseppe Puglisi" is the same shop/same quality as "Puglisi Reale", which is the name normally found.  Quite fancy (arguably overdecorated), with nice case and in apparently good condition, although I'm a bit nervous about the bridge position on the wrong side of the cant, which may just be ignorance or it may indicate a previous owner compensating for structural problems.

Kisslinger is a maker I've seen mentioned with a lot of praise (and sellign quite expensively), but haven't handled myself.  If it stays low, this one may well be a good bet, although it does need a new bridge (Dave Hynds can provide although you would need to fit it yourself).

If you're handy at instrument setup and basic repairs (or know somebody who is), potentially the best bet of the lot is to get this de Meglio cheap (should again be a decent buy up to around £75) and get a new bridge from Dave Hynds to fit yourself (or have a pro fit it).  I would want to have a photo of the "crack between two panels", though, as this is in the description but not in the photos.  Sounds like a separation in the bowl, which is not that hard to fix.  However, as this is a bit battered and needs some work, it's a bit of a risk -- what you get through the door may be a complete basket case.

I think these are more exciting than the ones you picked, although none of them is a clear winner.  With Ebay, you should in any case count on having to do some setup work, or have a pro doing it for you.

If you're not in any particular rush, your best bet may be to wait for a de Meglio in better condition to turn up.  They often go for between £100 and £150 and are among the most reliably good mandolins out there.

Martin

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

It is indeed the same Puglisi shop. And the label actually confirms my research results from about 5 years ago:

"The Puglisi family has started to build musical instruments in Catania (Sicily) since 1820. Giuseppe(G.) Reale was born in 1852 and was the son of a piano and organ builder. In 1880 he has founded one of the largest Italian factories for manufacturing bowed and plucked string instruments. After 1906 the firm`s name appears already as "G. Puglisi Reale i Figli(o)". Figli(o) means "sons" in Italian. The sons are Concetto Puglisi and Michelangelo Puglisi. Michelangelo Puglisi ran the workshop successfully after 1909 and his son Salvatore also played a part in this. They were active makers of fine violins (mainly), bows, strings, guitars, mandolins and unique cellos."

This means that this particular instrument is a pre-1906 model. That's why it appears only with the name of the father Giuseppe Puglisi. The "i figlio" part comes later. It is also obvious at least for me that this is an earlier model - may be around 1900. A nice one. Bear in mind what Martin said about the bridge position and the possible reasons for that.

Best,
Plamen

----------


## Fliss

> If you're handy at instrument setup and basic repairs (or know somebody who is), potentially the best bet of the lot is to get this de Meglio cheap (should again be a decent buy up to around £75) and get a new bridge from Dave Hynds to fit yourself (or have a pro fit it).  ...However, as this is a bit battered and needs some work, it's a bit of a risk -- what you get through the door may be a complete basket case...


Just to add to Martin's point, I bought a de Meglio at around the kind of price he suggests as my first bowlback.  The one I bought needed a bit of work (e.g. new bridge, repair to a crack in the top, repair to the edging) and it cost me a bit over £100 to get it fixed up by a luthier - but that still made it really good value and a really nice mandolin, and when the time came to sell it, I was able to recoup my costs.  The risk, as Martin says, is that if you bid on that one it may turn out to be worse than it looks in the photos, but as long as you can get it at a reasonable price it could be worth a gamble.

Fliss

----------


## Martin Jonas

> The fourth one, i agree with the seller, is probably German and might be decent but the bridge looks like it is sitting on or below the cant and it should be on the fretboard side of the cant. Usually this is located there because the action is way too high otherwise. This seller says he sets these up professionally, so i would be hesitant.


To amplify Jim's caution on this point, the side-on view of this (probably) German one shows that the neck joint has given way and that's the reason for the super-low bridge on the wrong side of the cant.  In fact it looks like even with the strings sitting _on_ the cant, the action would be too high to play for this one.  Avoid!

I attach the photos from the listing here for posterity, as it's a good illustration of a point that gets mentioned here repeatedly when it comes to assessing vintage bowlbacks.

If you go for the Puglisi I mentioned in my previous post, I suggest you ask for an exact side-on view just like that -- the bridge position may (or may not) indicate a similar problem.  The existing side-on view in the listing looks pretty innocuous, but it's not _quite_ exactly side-on.

Martin

----------


## rctil40

Thanks for all your comments, you have saved me from a hasty bid and the probable disappointment. The Puglisi is interesting, but the seller says its been properly set up which doesnt fit with what's been said about the bridge, so I'm inclined to be sceptical. I think I'll take the advice to wait for a decent de meglio. Thanks again.

Ritchie

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## Jim Garber

Ritchie: If you are near Nottinghamshire, this violin shop has a DeMeglio clone by Scarpa. I am not familiar with that particular maker. Price is on the high side, but you might not need to have any work done and if you can check it out in person, that might be worth the price and you might be able to bargain down some. 




> Fine old Italian Mandolin made by Francesco Scarpa 1899 in Napoli, labelled: Fabbrica Di Strumenti Armonici Francesco Scarpa Napoli anno 1899 N.964. This mandolin is in excellent playing condition. It produces a great sound and is a lot of fun to play. No damage or woodworm. £375

----------


## Fliss

Ritchie, sorry I hadn't spotted that you're in the UK!  That being the case, here is another de Meglio (I didn't flag this one up before because the seller says they will only post within the UK)  It doesn't look too bad, and might be worth a go if it doesn't go too high.

Fliss

----------


## Martin Jonas

Fliss,

I had seen that other de Meglio, but haven't included it in my list as I don't think the soundboard on this is original.  In fact, the instrument was discussed here before, when the same comment was made -- from the figure in the wood, this is a hardwood top, not a spruce one, meaning that somebody replaced the top and transferred the original scratchplate across.  This is unlikely to sound like an actual de Meglio.  Avoid.

Martin

----------


## Fliss

Interesting Martin, sorry I missed that previous discussion!  Ritchie, please forget what I said  :Smile:  

Fliss

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting, ornate mandolin by Giuseppe Puglisi, Catania. 

This looks like a high quality Markneukirchen-made mandolin by Herman Dolling, Jr.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Jim -- the Puglisi is the one Plamen and I have discussed yesterday a few posts up.  My concern is that the bridge is on the wrong side of the cant even though the seller goes to some length to say that it's fully set up for playing and intonates properly.

The Dölling is quite interesting.  I like the front-mounted tuners.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Sorry, Martin... I should have read your posts more thoroughly. I just came across those and am at work so post very quickly. I usually like to post pics but eBay now makes it more difficult. Yes, I agree the bridge position is suspicious but i thought the maker could be genuine, maybe an offshoot or relative since he is in the same town.

----------


## Jim Garber

Hole-in-the-head Calace from 1912 in Switzerland in the classifieds. Looks like it needs some work and some funky abrasion (sanding?) on the body, missing bone tuner button.

----------


## brunello97

We've all seen a lot of generic Ferrari mandolins on ebay.uk, but I've never seen one like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123

I know the general taste range here prefers the understated but I rather like these exuberant nouveau stylings and this one is nicely coordinated curves and lines.  Not the style I would necessarily own, but I enjoy the exuberance. From my perspective, nobody can draw like that anymore, not even with computers.

Mick

----------


## Benjamin T

That looks to be set up for a lefty. I really dig this instrument.

----------


## Jim Garber

> That looks to be set up for a lefty. I really dig this instrument.


Could be, but, given the self-proclaimed ignorance of the seller, it could also be as likely that they used the web cam on their computer which reverses the photos. I would check if interested.

----------


## Martin Jonas

I think it's pretty unlikely that the photos are reversed: the fretboard extension and the assymetry of the soundhole are on the conventional side, it's just that there are thick bass strings over the extension rather than thin treble strings.  So, yes, it does seem to be setup lefty, but as it's an assymetric instrument this looks as wrong as setting up a right-handed F-style for lefty stringing.  The buyer would be well advised to just revert to right-handed stringing.

Anyway, it looks quite classy for a Ferrari, but I still don't like the D-shaped soundhole aesthetis, whether on Calace or on imitators.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

As usual, Martin, you are probably right.

----------


## Chey49

Hi, I was just wondering if anyone could give advice on the worth of the :hole in the head calace mandolin"  Thanks!

----------


## brunello97

Wow.  Too much the Ferrari?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ht_1597wt_1139

Pimp My Embergher.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> Pimp My Embergher.


hah! That is scary. And what was the treble side of the top dipped in? Maple syrup? Strange!!

----------


## Jim Garber

For hysterical porpoises...

----------


## Jim Garber

Another Italian mandolin restored(?) by the hand of the Taiwanese masters. This a Michele Maratea. I hope that it was a basket case when they got it.

----------


## Bill Halsey

This Vega instrument came to me for replacement of several missing segments of the pearl and ebony edge trim.  It apparently once belonged to Theodore Geisel, the well-known children's author.

Its owner has kindly supplied the following information, and gave permission to post photos of it here.

The known facts are as follows:

1.  It came from his hometown - Springfield, MA
2.  It is signed by M.C. Geisel - his sister's initials were M.C.
3.  The name "Ted" appears inside the cover of the original case
4.  He did play mandolin in his high school mandolin club

The original leather case, with the name "Ted" inside the cover:

 


The instrument is in near-pristine condition:

  


The stamp of Geisel's sister's name on the reverse of the headstock:



In researching the provenance of this mandolin, the owner had contacted the Springfield library in hopes that a high school yearbook might yield a photo of Geisel with his instrument, with the mandolin club.  Unfortunately (likely due to Geisel's distinction), the yearbook had long since gone missing from the library.

----------


## Jim Garber

Wow! Dr. Seuss!! One of my favorite authors and a mandolin player!! Not only that he had good taste in mandolins. That is a style 3 or 4 (I am not at home where my ref materials are). My style 3 is one of my favorite bowlbacks, sweet and loud, my favorite American one. Thanks for posting this, Bill.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Bill! 

That is a really wonderful Vega mandolin! And one with a nice history.

Thanks for sharing, Alex.

----------


## rctil40

Hi

I'm interested in the Ferrari (even if it is a bit fancy) how much do you think would be reasonable to pay for this? And someone emntioned re-stringing it, does this literally just mean changing the strings or would the bridge and nut need to be reversed?

Thanks

----------


## brunello97

> Hi
> 
> I'm interested in the Ferrari (even if it is a bit fancy) how much do you think would be reasonable to pay for this? And someone emntioned re-stringing it, does this literally just mean changing the strings or would the bridge and nut need to be reversed?
> 
> Thanks


Hmmm.  It looks to me as it has just been (recently) strung incorrectly, but of course there is no way to be certain.  If you look at the image of the nut the bass strings seem to be riding high and the treble down deep in the nut grooves. In any event, flipping the nut is a very minor repair.  The bridge appears to be reversed as well-the saddle should be towards the soundhole.  Of issue with these old bowlbacks, naturally, is their playability.  Check with the seller on the action at the 12th fret.  Don't rely on statements such as 'the neck is straight'.  It most likely is.  However, it may have rotated upwards at the neck/bowl joint rendering the action impossibly high.  A good side view should show the condition of the neck.  Be careful, however, and get the information you need.

As to the price?  It depends on the condition of course. As you probably know, lots of Italian mandolins of this-basic-quality show up on ebay.uk.  The starting bid is probably close to the price you ought to pay for it.  If the neck is in good condition and you can get it for 100L then it would most likely be an enjoyable, if not wonderful, mandolin. They do have their own bright, classic sound when comped with production bowlbacks from the US of similar quality/price point.  Where are you located?  Shipping rates out of the UK seem disproportionally high, if that is an issue for you.

Good luck!  Please let us know if you do purchase it.....

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

rctil40: I don't know if you won that ferrari or not. You say you are in Scotland. Ian Steel deals in mandolins and runs the  Lanarkshire Guitar and Mandolin Society. He may be able to set you up with a good bowlback. he is a contributor to this forum IIRC under trebleclef.

----------


## joebrent

I'm selling my Pandini, "Isabella". Very sorry to part with her. I just don't play her often enough to justify the upkeep, and I'm going on a long tour soon and couldn't bear the thought of her sitting in storage for months. I'd like her to go to a good home where she'll be played; an aspiring musician or student would be ideal. I can vouch for her condition, she makes regular visits to Tom Crandall and Yuriy Kovalev, and of course she looks and sounds fantastic. 

http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/...uery=retrieval

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## Margriet

I think my new Embergher nr. 3 is a bowlback of note.....
I posted photos on the thread: post a picture of your mandolin/bowlback.

Margriet

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## Jim Garber

Margriet (I repeat): Congratulations!! That one is in amazing condition. Enjoy it!!I believe that the Emberghers from that era are exceptional since they were most likely made by by master Cerrone. I have played a few from that time... wonderful!

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## Jim Garber

Scalloped De Mureda on ebay UK

----------


## Lou Giordano

> Scalloped De Mureda on ebay UK


I'm lusting for that one.

----------


## Jim Garber

Scalloped ones always seem to go for much more.

----------


## Lou Giordano

They are beautiful. I will be looking more seriously after I sell my Martin guitar.

----------


## Schlegel

> Scalloped ones always seem to go for much more.


Scalloped ribs are the scroll and points of the bowlback world!  

Except more understated and classy, of course.

----------


## Jim Garber

This is a gorgeous repro of a 1796 Donato Filano that Antonello Saccu of Genoa made for Carlo Aonzo. More photos here: Antonello Saccu mandolin.

Carlo says it sounds wonderful. I hope he brings it when he comes to the U.S.

----------


## brunello97

That is very pretty, Jim.  A scalloped maple bowl has me weak in the knees.  Interesting that it is set up with metal strings.  Would this have been typical back in 1796?

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

I think —but am no authority to say— that metal strings are the hallmark, so to speak, of the Neapolitan mandolin, and _ex definitio_ one of its defining elements. But I plead ignorance, really...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

I'm sure you are correct, Victor, the wound lower course strings seemed visually curious with along with the exquisite period detail.  I'm sure Carlo and Antonello have their factotums correct. 

While admiring this, it dawned on me that there is a greater time span between us and dear Orville than between Mr. Gibson (or my own modest Neapolitans) and this  mandolin (as original.)    Nothing inherently profound in that observation except that 1796 doesn't seem so far away. 

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

Standard stringing on 18th century neapolitan mandos was usually  gut top 'e', brass 'a' (harpichord wire), heavier brass 'd' (thicker harpsichord wire) and the bottom strings two of the heavier brass strings wound together, though sometimes an octave using another 'a' string.

Must have been fun keeping one in tune...

cheers

graham

----------


## etbarbaric

Very pretty mandolin!  It does seem to have some sort of modern stringing, however. The account in one of the early methods gives something approximating the following (Fouchetti, if memory serves). Every course uses different technology:
E: Two gut strings
A: Two single brass wire strings
D: Two twisted brass wire (twisted pair!)
G: One wound string (like a violin G-string) and one octave single brass string

This combination actually works pretty well when coupled with the right plectrum and technique. As Graham mentions, harpsichord string is referenced... and the resulting sound is not unlike a tiny harpsichord, IMHO.  It is a pretty low-tension setup, and I don't have much trouble keeping instruments strung this way in tune.  It can be difficult keeping strings for long, though... gut wears quickly on metal frets... and brass doesn't take well to being bent or kinked.

Best,

Eric

----------


## Graham McDonald

Well, I was close  :Grin: 
Comes from not checking your references before typing

----------


## dave17120

Any thoughts about this one???????  Dave
http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-CALACE-...item20b444d7a3

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## Lou Giordano

> Scalloped De Mureda on ebay UK


Someone stepped up. Anyone from the Cafe?

----------


## Tavy

> Someone stepped up. Anyone from the Cafe?


Not me, but it sure looked a cracker!

----------


## brunello97

> Any thoughts about this one???????  Dave
> http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-CALACE-...item20b444d7a3


It looks like a bit of a crack to the left  of the fretboard above the soundhole.  Otherwise it appears in good shape-though the neck is hard to tell.  I do like these jugendstil / nouveau designs and this is an especially harmonious one to my eyes. (I just bought a wreck of a Cristofaro which while less exuberant than this Calace, still has some flair.)

Are you thinking of bidding, Dave?

Mick

----------


## dave17120

I have a client who is asking what I think...... 
I can fix any problems it has, but for me 1,000 is very high, but I'm not really up with what these high end instruments sell for!!??
Dave

----------


## dave17120

....and for the fluted..... may have been 'trebleclef' perhaps???

----------


## Martin Jonas

I would have thought that 1000 Euro for that Calace is a pretty good deal as long as the repair is straightforward.  Unlike Mick, I'm not a big fan of the looks of that particular period in the Calace shop, but this is clearly not an entry-level instrument and it comes from the period when the Calace reputation was at its highest, with only Embergher as serious competitors at the time.  It should be the equivalent of an Embergher No. 2 or 3 in value, and they tend to be rather more than 1000 Euro.

At least the fancier of the Calace mandolins were high-end concert instruments at the time.  I've posted a clip of Mario de Pietro on a similarly-appointed Calace in 1943 before in another thread.  Here is the link again (you may have to click through an annoying ad first to get to the video):

Link

De Pietro's instrument is clearly a Calace and looks pretty similar to the one on Ebay, except that it has the strange individual "finger" fretboard extensions like the Classico has now.

Martin

----------


## Bob A

The Calace in question is a pretty high-end instrument from a good period. While my tastes run to a less nouveau look, the instrument is of a quality to deserve considerably more than 1000 euro, IMO. Without going thru a pile of CDs, I think someone of note did a disc of Calace preludes using a Calace mandolin of very similar appearance.

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Right, Bob! I can think of at least two CDs - one by Gertrud Tröster and one by Elena Olenchyk. They both use a very similar Calace mandolin in their recordings (Calace preludes and some other original Calace works).

----------


## brunello97

Here's Gertrud with a Calace, though I'm not sure if this is the one Plami is referring to. I have always enjoyed most regional manifestations of what is sometimes generalized here as Art Nouveau.  The Catalan version in architecture and interior design being my ultimate favorite. Don't get me wrong, I'm a dedicated Modernist (with a capital M) in my own life and work.  The sublime sound and design of my Martin is closer to my heart.

A question to Plami (and Victor, out there somewhere)?  Were there local variants of the 'Art Nouveau' east of the Adriatic?  I'm familiar with the Viennese and Prague manifestations, but know little of this era in SE Europe.

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

> A question to Plami (and Victor, out there somewhere)?  Were there local variants of the 'Art Nouveau' east of the Adriatic?  I'm familiar with the Viennese and Prague manifestations, but know little of this era in SE Europe.


Quite frankly, I wouldn't trust my compatriots with ANYthing _nouveau_, unless formica-marquetry is to one's taste ;-)

On the other hand, I _did_ in fact once compose two Jugendstil songs (on Rilke) for a German-Swiss tenor. But I digress, both aesthetically and otherwise...

OK, back to those loose ends that need my attention, pre-departure.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Lou Giordano

What do you think about this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123

----------


## Jim Garber

> What do you think about this one?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123


A little too glitzy for my taste. I like the well-made but stately looking, well playing instruments. The brand is a decent mid-range Italian tho. It might need a bunch of work, tho.

----------


## Lou Giordano

Glitzy is the word. I was curious to see if it was a decent brand. 

Thanks

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

> Here's Gertrud with a Calace, though I'm not sure if this is the one Plami is referring to. I have always enjoyed most regional manifestations of what is sometimes generalized here as Art Nouveau.  The Catalan version in architecture and interior design being my ultimate favorite. Don't get me wrong, I'm a dedicated Modernist (with a capital M) in my own life and work.  The sublime sound and design of my Martin is closer to my heart.
> 
> A question to Plami (and Victor, out there somewhere)?  Were there local variants of the 'Art Nouveau' east of the Adriatic?  I'm familiar with the Viennese and Prague manifestations, but know little of this era in SE Europe.
> 
> Mick


Hi Mick,

This is exactly the CD i was talking about.

While i'm aware of some architecture and fine art examples of "Art Nouveau" in Bulgaria in the beginning of XX. century, i'm afraid that i have to ask some professional musicians in order to find out whether the Jugendstil has also influenced the music and which are the composers representatives of that style. It may take a while, but if i find out something i will let you know.

Best,
Plamen

----------


## brunello97

> A little too glitzy for my taste. I like the well-made but stately looking, well playing instruments. The brand is a decent mid-range Italian tho. It might need a bunch of work, tho.


I do like these elaborate mariposa/farfalla pickguards.  Marvelously weird tradition.  I have never played a MOP fretboard but it kind of creeps me out in a fingernails-on-blackboard kind of way.  They were popular out of Chicago as well, it seems.  "Presentation Grade" I think was the term back then; which I also get a kick out of.  Can you imagine President Barack 'presenting' a mandolin to Mme Sarkozy on the next state visit to France?  Awesome.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

On a practical note, I believe that MOP fretboards are more difficult to refret or at least you have to be more careful not to chip the pearl.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> Can you imagine President Barack 'presenting' a mandolin to Mme Sarkozy on the next state visit to France? Awesome.


_Most_ elegantly appropriate, too, if I had any say on the matter ;-)

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Here's one certainly of interest: Double cutaway German bowlback, sort of Wappen bowlback.

----------


## Margriet

> Here's one certainly of interest: Double cutaway German bowlback, sort of Wappen bowlback.


Blllchch! it seems to be a well-made ugly mandolin. i did not know that such exists.

----------


## Jim Garber

"Blllchch" -- I did not know that I knew that word in Dutch.  :Smile: 

It is strange, tho I have seen other odd mandolins, not exactly graceful to me but not so ugly. Maybe it just needs a good home and love.  :Grin:

----------


## Margriet

You are right, right instrument on the right (loving and caring) place... 
Blllchch is just an onomatopee. ( if this is a right English word.)

----------


## vkioulaphides

> ...(if this is a right English word.)


For the record, it is a _Greek_ word.  :Wink:  Not "blllchch", the other one.  :Laughing: 

It pains me (a bit) to see industry wasted on ugliness. But who am I to say? To invert this whole syllogism, perhaps I am even more saddened by good-looking, yet shoddily crafted instruments plenty of _those_ out there, too!

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Graham McDonald

OK, here's one for the brains trust. Just spent the day with mando type things in the Stearns Collection at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and found this one. It is a bowl back 12 string (6x2) mandolin with 21 fluted rosewood ribs.  and these strange combination of soundholes. The ebony fret board is flat, but scolloped between the frets. It has a hand written label of 'Luigi Embergher, Roma 1890' as well as something which could well be  COSTRUTTORE D' STRUMENTI ARMONICI, but handwritten and indistinct, that Alex T mentions on the Embergher site on labels from around that period. It is fitted with gut and (I think) wound over gut strings. The tuners are normal on the back, but the posts come through two plates attached to the front of the head. Might it be some strange double course Milanese/Lombardic mandolin or something I don't know about at all  :Smile:  

cheers

graham

----------


## Jim Garber

Graham... glad to hear that you are in the US. That is one strange Embergher. Possibly one of the earliest. According to Leenen and Pratt the workshop opened in 1880 in Arpino but by 1890 moved to Roma. That bears little resemblance to other Emberghers even early ones. Maybe it was a one-off custom. Do you have additional photos?

----------


## Graham McDonald

Here are the other pics I took of the Embergher. So many instruments, so little time, so it is not as well documented as it might be. One interesting thing is that it has an odd number of ribs and I thought that the Roman instruments usually had even numbers. Perhaps that was a later development. The scratchplate is leaf shaped, inlayed into the soundboard and looks like ebony with a greenish cast.

cheers

graham

----------


## etbarbaric

No disrespect intended... but if that's an Embergher, I'll eat my plectrum... :-)

Best,

Eric

----------


## Graham McDonald

I make no claims about the instrument one way or the other. The label is handwritten and is dated 1890 which fits in with the time the Stearns collection was being acquired. The University of Michigan got the collection around 1900 (or a little after) when I could see no reason for anyone to want to fake an Emberger, though the collection have several quite obvious fakes that an imaginative Italian forger (who'se name escapes me at the moment) had conned Stearns into buying. I will send the pics onto Loresnzo Lippi when I get home and see if he can shed any light on the mystery.

cheers

graham

----------


## vkioulaphides

> ... if that's an Embergher, I'll eat my plectrum... :-)


While I share your skepticism, I must, as a friend, also warn you that the _appropriate_ Roman plectrum poses a dreadful choking hazard.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## billkilpatrick

> While I share your skepticism, I must, as a friend, also warn you that the _appropriate_ Roman plectrum poses a dreadful choking hazard.


indeed ... before making a pledge like that it would do well to insert the plectrum in the rectum to check for size.

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi Graham,

I don't have an axe to grind either... just skeptical.

As we know, labels in instruments are funny things.  Stick in a prominent name and suddenly an instrument takes on new mystery and value.  Labels are often wrong for all kinds of reasons... usually related to money. I will never forget the lady on "Antiques Roadshow" who was just sure her Stradivarius violin was genuine and priceless.  After all, the famous maker had labeled the instrument as being dedicated to his wife (or was it sister?)... who's name was apparently "Facibat Anno"... :-)

Regarding the Italian forger, are you perhaps thinking of Leopoldo Franciolini?  He built a career around building faked antique instruments... and they often had very exotic and compelling labels with very early dates.  For the most part his creations were completely unplayable... but they sure looked old.  Many museums and collections were duped by his fakes, to their later embarrassment.  Recent scholarship has revealed that he employed none other than 19th-century mandolin makers to build some of these fabrications.

I'm just saying that we always have to look at the instrument to see if it fits with its claimed maker, geography, and time.  I am fortunate to own an Embergher from 1899, and it looks nothing like this (the F-holes are *much* bigger... :-) :-) :-))

Best,

Eric

ps - Speculating wildly, I suppose it is always possible that someone took the back and affixed label (perhaps broken) of a legitimate Embergher and added the other more whimsical bits.  A good look at the back would help decide this, as would a good look at the label.  Embergher's labels and signature are well known by authorities such as our Alex.

----------


## Jim Garber

Then again, Luigi did build the Cetra-Madami instruments which, if nothing else are certainly different from his usual fare. No accounting for (lack of) taste or odd f-holes.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> After all, the famous maker had labeled the instrument as being dedicated to his wife (or was it sister?)... who's name was apparently "Facibat Anno"... :-)


That was his sister; his wife was _Casus belli_— a difficult woman, truth be told.

Most interestingly, his brother was _Nemo dat_, who also affixed names (that weren't his) on various labels of instruments he didn't build himself.  :Laughing: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

And, of course, that very prolific composer. Anonymous.

----------


## JeffD

> I must, as a friend, also warn you that the _appropriate_ Roman plectrum poses a dreadful choking hazard.


 :Laughing:   :Crying:   :Laughing:

----------


## Graham McDonald

I'm the first to admit there is nothing, other than the label, which suggests Embergher in any way about this instrument. The back, of which I didn't take a picture, looked pretty standard, with fluted Brazilian rosewood ribs with light coloured spacers between each one.

There are several Franciolini instruments in the Stearns collection and curator has noticed that they tend to have many of the added bits painted black and they don't fit very well. This one doesn't have anything like that. It looks like it has been built as a six course mandolin, for whatever reason!

cheers

graham

----------


## brunello97

Well to my eye the silly bottle-opener headstock finally looks at home on La Madami.  The chicken bone f holes seem okay, but the scroll scratchplate seems very unfortunate. I've been much more impressed with Sig. Embergher's ear than his design eye. To each his own.

As to the Stearns Collection, I agree with Graham that it would seem very odd to fake an Embergher before 1900.  Who would one be fooling?  A Vinaccia label, for instance, might have drawn water.  What kind of rapscallion in Ann Arbor would do such a thing decades later ;-)  I need to wander over there and have a look at this myself.  Unbeknownst to me, one of my former students manages the collection.  I needed a guy from Australia to clue me in to that......

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Not to change the subject, but I just acquired yet another bowlback (who said,"...like potato chips"?). It is labelled Rohlfing Sons Music Company, Milwaukee, WIS. I have a string feeling that it is a product of the Larson workshop. I know that this brand is not mentioned anywhere as being connected to the Larsons, but the connection to Milwaukee and Maurer seems a little mopre than coincidental. Also I did find an example of a Maurer bowlback that has some very salient features matching those on the Rohlfing. I posted pictures in the Post a Picture thread.

----------


## etbarbaric

Well... this is how much I don't feel like working tonight... I love a good mystery... :-)

I found the catalog of the Stearns Collection on-line.  The entry for this instrument seems basically accurate, but it doesn't add much.  It is interesting to see them using the mandolino/mandoline lingo at this date.

1058. Mandolino... Italy, Oval body. Purfled sound-board. Machine head. Three pairs of gut, and an equal number of over-spun silk strings. Twenty metal frets. One oval and two F sound-holes. V-shaped head. Length 61cm.; of body, 32cm; width, 21cm; depth 14cm.  Signed -- "Luigi Embergher, Roma, 1890."

*However*, I found an entry on the next page to be most priceless... made my whole day, in fact:

1070. "Gibson" Mandoline.... United States.  The instrument, with an oval body, back of polished dark wood, and belly of light-colored wood, has the characteristic mandoline neck, but the back is not vaulted. Typical mandoline stringing. The modern makers of guitars and mandolines have taken many hints from the early makers and are making many curious, but not always effective combinations.

The catalog was published in 1918... but I suspect this was written somewhat earlier... :-)

Best,

Eric

ps - Part of chasing this down is figuring out exactly when the "Embergher" instrument came into the collection. I am certainly no expert on this collection, but the preface to the catalog does mention that the collection was merged with instruments "secured by the Beal-Steere Expedition (1870-75)", and that the collection was moved in April 1914.  It also (perhaps...) hints at some later additions to the collection... 

"There are a few gaps in certain classes, for the filling of which the generosity of those who are interested in the subject is confidently relied upon. This confidence is predicated on the fact that while the present installation was in progress [1914], several important accessions were received, and valuable contributions are constantly being made."  (Page 6)

It is hard to be sure from the language, but those "accessions" and "contributions" *could* be additional instruments (to those from Stearns) that "fill gaps" in the classes (of instruments). The overarching goal being to exhibit the most complete collection of instruments possible, and not necessarily the most perfect representation of what Mr. Stearns originally donated. Rampant speculation, but if so, additions are "constantly being made" right up to 1918. So I suppose it is at least *possible* that an instrument could have been added to the collection as late as 1918 (the date of the catalog's publication)... by which time Luigi's name was pretty well known and well... valuable. More rampant speculation, of course.  Mick, maybe your former student can clarify the date when this beast was added to the collection, if there are records available that are earlier than the 1918 published catalog.

----------


## Simen Kjaersdalen

> No disrespect intended... but if that's an Embergher, I'll eat my plectrum... :-)


Don't worry, I know a master-chef here that can make almost anything eatable, hats, bugs, shoes, you name it! I'm sure I can get some advice from him. The contract doesn't say that you have to eat it raw or in one piece, does it? Will you post the eating on youtube? Maybe the mandolin world finally will be world-famous for something...

Really hope that this turns out to be an Embergher... Can't wait!  :Grin:

----------


## Graham McDonald

Eric Hartz, the curator of the collection, doesn't know all that much about lots of the collection. We checked the original records, what there are of them, and there is no real info about how or when Stearns acquired most of the instruments. He just handed them over as a job lot. Eric thinks the 1918 catalogue started to be put together about 1914, but there is nothingabout when most of the instruments were acquired. Maybe the more ethnographic instruments might have come from the Expedition in the 1870s and it might be worthwhile working out where they went, which might well explain one or more sections of the collection.

I think Mick should go and have a look at the Emberger. I will PM Eric's phone number.

cheers

graham

(now in Nashville after spending yesterday avoiding tornadoes. That was exciting )

----------


## Jim Garber

This poor Anastasios Stathopoulo mandolin went for a decent price, esp considering that it needs a fair amount of work. Anyone here score this one? I love that laminated neck he used on practically all his mandolins.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Iannis (Tsoulogiannis) might know, if anyone does. Indeed, laminated necks were almost a "standard feature" in the Greek mando-aesthetic, and were transferred from there to bouzoukis, etc. Greek folk-lutes (laouta) also have them, as a matter of course. Let's see what Iannis has to say...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Stathopoulos used laminated (mahogany and maple)necks in his mandolins, laouta,guitars and expensive bouzoukis.He was  proud for that and he was writing that his instrument necks never bend.
"Πολύπλεκτους χείρας"(Victor that is how he was describing them.)
Mandolins from other greek makers(Moutzinos,Gombakis,I.Stathopoulos) from the same period of time do not have  laminated necks.

Bob Benedetto Book "Making an Archtop guitar" at page 205 has a picture of Frank Benedetto playing an Anastasios Stathopoulo mandolin.Amazing if someone considers that Frank influenced Bob as well as Epiphone

Visit my blog and watch my latest bouzouki(six string) 
http://trixorda.blogspot.com/2010/10/blog-post.html

----------


## vkioulaphides

Good to know. As usual, I was caught over-generalizing.  :Redface: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

In any case, I do find Stathopoulos' mandolins interesting. He always seems to use that deMeglio-shaped scratchplate and laminated necks. Nice label too. I lowballed the bid. I don't need many more mandolins that need repairs.

----------


## vkioulaphides

In my (meek) defense, Gianni, I got the instruments all mixed up: to wit, I think that laminated necks were first somewhat common on high-end _laouta_, and then transferred from _those_ to high-end bouzoukia. In other words, I think that the lamination was used as reinforcement, specifically (and most critically) on long-necked instruments, to prevent warping (as you correctly point out). On a _mandolin_, such a technique would imply either an aesthetic indulgence, or an overabundance of caution.

But you, of course, would know all these things far better than I do. I'm just happy to enjoy your instruments :-)

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

Admittedly not a bowlback, here's a link to a thread about a lucky guy scoring a Calace violin.

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/inde...owtopic=322553

----------


## Jim Garber

What is the buyer's background? On  one hand it sounds like he is a violin dealer. However, where does the $25,000 valuation come from? yes, he did get a deal at $500 but I don't know that calace violins are worth all that much to real violin folks. Or maybe I am wrong...

----------


## Bruce Clausen

I'm more than a little skeptical.  The buyer's smugness is exceeded only by his illiteracy.  The instrument was appraised by a famous writer.  The brother of the person now borrowing it once borrowed a Strad.  One gets the feeling he's not a player, and is already trying to sell it.

----------


## vkioulaphides

"Say, can you spare a Strad for a day or two?" said Mark Twain to him; "Why, sure!" he replied, gladly. And history was made. Honestly ;-)

There IS, however, entertainment-value in some of those postings, you've got to admit...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## KristinEliza

He compliments it's sound...and then says it needs a soundpost....hmmm....*scratches head*

----------


## Jim Garber

> the instrument was appraised by very respected British authority and famous writer Cyril Woodcock


Cyril Woodcock is a respected violin writer, so i would not discount that part. However. I just checked maestronet.com's price history pages -- culled from auction results -- and the only Raffaele Calace (spelled wrong there) violin went for $9,000. There was a Giuseppe Calace violin that went for $4,255. Also, I am not sure where the buyer gets the 120 year old... the seller says 1900. Something a little odd here. 

Here is the quote from the eBay listing:



> An old violin I am listing for violin dealer/collector Dr. Ed Rich of Halls, TN.  The body may be Italian but the neck is most likely German.  The label reads: C. WOODCOCK LONDON This Violin ascribed to CALACE RAFFAELE NAPLES Date 1900 No. 11D.
>    Measurements: Overall length about 23 7/8".  Corpus 14 1/4".  UB 6 13/16".  MB 4 3\4".  LB 8 3\8".
>    No damages to the back, ribs, neck or scroll.  Cracks on treble side and under chinrest.  I see no soundpost or bassbar cracks.
>   Some violins made by Calace or in his workshop look very much like the body of this violin.  The instrument is playable, the cracks have been cleated in the traditional manner but the neck is not original so consider this as something for the repairer/restorer.

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Thanks for the additional info, Jim.  Interesting to see the appraiser's name on the label.  Buyer says hardly any wear, but the e-bay listing honestly describes repaired cracks and a new neck.  Seller calls it a repair project, but the buyer has lent it to a player to use "till it sounds at it top potential".  A long term loan then.  As Victor says, there's entertainment value here.

----------


## Bruce Clausen

I've just been following the Maestronet discussion for fun;  lots of skepticism there too, but also lots more entertainment to be had, including these comments by the seller regarding the player who is now using the instrument.

Shes an incredible player, she feels with an instrument of the Calaces quality or the old Goffriller???? violin i sold for $6000, she might be able to get a job with the Phil like her brother once did. I really think, If she decides to take it that far i might just likely give it to her for 1000 or let her make payments whats more important, friendship, love of music, or monetary gain,and sell it to her cheap or let her make payments. Its a big violin,14 1/4, with 13 3/16 scale and a deep sonourous viola tone, it may in fact be a 3/4 viola, If Lucille really wants or can get a Job with the LA phil. i dont think il1 ask for it back, after all its just one violin, $500, and ebay, you can't get greedy about making profit from youre best friends.

Ouch!  Not the sort of thing one wants one's friends posting.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Now... if this fellow is in the business of selling, say, cellos by *Matteo Goffriller* for, oh... $6,000-or-so, I can think of a few _thousand_ cellists worldwide who would like to talk to him. Mr. Baumann of the Berlin Philharmonic must also be understandably vexed, considering he paid ~somewhat~ above that figure for _his_ Goffriller. Who knew?

I am positive that they, too —and _despite_ missing their soundposts— must sound splendid! ;-)

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

In al fairness, the buyer does have a particular reputation there on maestronet. I suspect it's well-earned. Certainly an amusing thread.

----------


## Jim Garber

What does that mean: "a particular reputation"? I wonder if they are saying the same thing about me... or, for that matter,  about you?

I suppose it is like coming into a party or a play already in progress... we are not sure who the players are or what they represent. Interesting...

----------


## Jim Garber

I just reread the thread with the current additions. I think the OP is a real character... I see what you mean, Bob.

A couple of interesting comments:



> Ive seen a few Calace violins and wasnt too impressed ,they looked very personalistic and rather odd,i think he should have stuck to making mandolins and guitars.Certainly not much resemblance to other half decent Naples makers like Pistucci,Bellarosa ,Contino,etc..Apart from maybe the very flat edge /corner work





> I can't comment on this particular instrument but I can say that Woodcock certificates were and are a joke. I was one of his victims as a naive student back in the sixties when I bought what was supposed to be a Gagliano from him. Every genuine expert who saw it laughed and warned me about his notoriety in the violin world even then. I learned a hard and expensive lesson.


and funniest...



> It says in the eBay listing that the neck has been replaced.
> I think that the body was also replaced at some stage.

----------


## vkioulaphides

At some point in life, I, too, would like to have _my_ neck replaced, followed of course by a full-body replacement, as well.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## etbarbaric

Ah shoot Victor, you beat me to it again!  :-)

I just *love* the body replacement comment. Kinda reminds me of my great-grandfather's original wood axe that was handed down to me.  The handle's been replaced once or twice, and it has a new head, but I treasure it dearly... :-)

The violin world is full of interesting stories.  I was instantly curious about someone placing a label in an instrument that presumably stated an attribution.  I haven't heard that one before.

Eric

----------


## Bob A

Yeah, well, Jim, it's a bit of an insular group there, who've played together for years. I seldom get any comment on my meager postings, but I enjoy intruding my presence anyway. They had a huge thread there several months ago, where all the lurkers and the ignored were invited to chime in and express their angst over their situation. 

Lyndon is rather over the top. As Archie Goodwin once wrote of the relationship between himself and his boss "I'm strong-minded; he's pig-headed". 

All that being said, there are some posters on the site who are very well qualified in their respective fields. It can be quite informative.

----------


## Tavy

There's a stunning looking Calace on eBay UK

Of course it has a stunning price to go with it!  :Grin:

----------


## Jim Garber

The Calace is up there in price because it is  second from the top of the line, a 16bis. The seller is pretty active on eBay and seems to know his stuff.

----------


## vkioulaphides

"Are D-soundholes sour grapes?" I ask myself; as I cannot afford hired therapists, the question will remain unanswered.  :Laughing: 

Good luck to the eventual buyer!

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Eric Root

> This Vega instrument came to me for replacement of several missing segments of the pearl and ebony edge trim.  It apparently once belonged to Theodore Geisel, the well-known children's author.
> 
> Its owner has kindly supplied the following information, and gave permission to post photos of it here.
> 
> The known facts are as follows:
> 
> 1.  It came from his hometown - Springfield, MA
> 2.  It is signed by M.C. Geisel - his sister's initials were M.C.
> 3.  The name "Ted" appears inside the cover of the original case
> ...


Hmm, I can't remember the name of the Dr. Seuss biography I read, but it think I remember it saying he was in the Dartmouth University mandolin club, not high school.  Someone close to Dartmouth should check their early-'20s yearbooks and school papers.

----------


## Bob A

A lot of foxing on the Calace label for something from 1962. Fretboard extends across soundhole but frets stop at 19? The signature looks like the old Raffaele's, but I confess to not digging my mando up for comparison. (Granddaughter sleeping on my shoulder; best to let sleeping kids lie).

----------


## vkioulaphides

> (Granddaughter sleeping on my shoulder; best to let sleeping kids lie).


Wisely spoken, my friend! 

*shhhhhhhhhh*

Victor

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi Bob,

For a moment I wondered if that "6" was a "1" with a spurious loop... but I don't believe it is.  I'm no Calace expert, but I did a quick compare with my 1913 Calace, and while the signature is almost identical, the label overall most definitely resembles those from the 60s.  By then the label was likely a printed (rather than signed) affair.  Still, Sr. Calace must have been very consistent with his signature, as the printed version is a dead ringer for the hand-signed label in my instrument... right down to little details.

Jim posted some 60s Calace labels in another thread and they are identical to this one, being all in blue ink with the "Anno____" line included.

Still... its a lovely instrument in seemingly rather wonderful condition.... if you can get over that sound-hole thing... :-)  It also lacks the "sound ports"... or what ever they are called that frequently are found just above the bridge on earlier models.

Best,

Eric

----------


## Bob A

I secretly harbor the belief that the sound hole ports are meant to produce a column of sound which, interrupted by the oscillating wrist of the mandolinist, will produce a subtle sonic effect, not unlike that which would occur if the wrist were moving over the actual soundhole. Whether this was the original intent is at present not known, and may never be known. 

Needless to say, such blue-sky speculation is not something a reasonable person would promulgate in a public forum, but this is the internet, where repetition creates reality. And of course I hold this belief secretly. At least until something better comes along. Actually, it sounds rather 1920s GibSonic, if you've read the catalogs of the era.

----------


## etbarbaric

A laudable and interesting theory... however, I posit my own.  Clearly the "ports" are meant to vent the hot combustion gases produced by an over-exuberant tremolo, most often created when playing dramatic Calace scores. By the 1960s, Calace's music had fallen out of favor, so the ports were sadly no longer needed...

 :Grin:

----------


## Bob A

A whole new meaning to "blistering tremolo".

----------


## vkioulaphides

A... _portly_ gentleman, member of the Boston Symphony way back when, used to fill his double bass with cigar smoke backstage, then rush onstage and promptly tear into some frantic passage from Wagner or something whereupon smoke would begin to ooze out of the F-holes, much to the terror and amazement of all those in attendance.  :Laughing: 

Never saw such an effect on _mandolin_, although of course it would be possible. The aftereffect-stench, however, should advise against the idea.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Tavy

> A... _portly_ gentleman, member of the Boston Symphony way back when, used to fill his double bass with cigar smoke backstage, then rush onstage and promptly tear into some frantic passage from Wagner or something— whereupon smoke would begin to ooze out of the F-holes, much to the terror and amazement of all those in attendance.


Brilliant!

Best laugh I've had all morning, John  :Laughing:

----------


## vkioulaphides

It was quite a sight... The gentleman in question, Leslie Martin (affectionately nicknamed "Tiny" Martin by his colleagues) was, ah... anything _but_: standing at well over six feet, weighing... *ahem*... _charitably_ something around 300 lbs, and playing an _oversized double bass_ to boot, he was, oh... QUITE a sight to behold: jolly, red-faced, with a visible snicker, and that horrid cigar-smoke nebula emanating from the instrument's F-holes, while he scrambled through those frantic blurs of notes from The Ride of the Valkyries, or Also Sprach Zarathustra...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

Did anyone notice the reference to a Calace lyre mandolin in the vintage section?

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...-Lyre-Mandolin

----------


## Tavy

> Did anyone notice the reference to a Calace lyre mandolin in the vintage section?
> 
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...-Lyre-Mandolin


I have now, wow, I'd love to own one of those for about 5 minutes just so I could show it off to some friends... after that I fear practicality would render it less useful than one might wish! ;-)

----------


## Bruce Clausen

They're lovely things, though I've never seen one in person.  Is it true the rods connecting the "horns" to the peghead were made of aluminum, then regarded as virtually a precious metal?

----------


## Marc Woodward

3 photos of my Raffaele Valente Roman mandolin. Not exactly sure of the age I'm guessing about, say, April 5th 1898 (2.48pm)................. well about that year anyway judging by the Embergher elements coupled with Vinaccia style pickguard. I'm sure you guys can give me a much better steer on that...
It has a slightly radiused fingerboard thicker on the bass side and canted to the treble with sloping bridge to match. Fingerboard appears to be semi floating over the top.

Only problem is it sounds quiet and a little tinny to my ear - not as loud as Emberghers I've played. But it is very priddy ain't it?

----------


## Jim Garber

Marc: Check the bridge position and seating. I can't quite tell but it looks like it is positioned across the cant. It also does not look exactly like a Roman bridge either. Have more pics... I have nothing on the maker. I do have two examples by Pietro Valente and the labels say "successor to Raffaele".

----------


## brunello97

I've always thought the opening scene in "Wings of Desire" was one of the best ever: Peter Falk flying in der himmel uber Berlin musing in his NYC-cum-Proustian manner on the delight of cities and their place-names.  Coming from him, "Trieste" sounds as exotic as "Abilene" or "Bamako".  I've never been there, and may be romanticizing it.  Fernando del Perugia certainly fans the flame with his labels (if not his mandolins.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_500wt_1156

What was a Fernando del Perugia doing in Trieste?  It's like a Calvino story waiting to be written.

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

> It's like a Calvino story waiting to be written.


How true! Some of these mando-stories are worthy of Umberto Eco, even, in their florid convolution and intrigue.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Ian W

Hi, I saw your headstock photo of an instrument by Eulry. I am restoring one at present and am looking for photos so I can reconstruct pegs, bridge and fretboard. Can you help me?

Many thanks & am hapy to send my photos as well.

----------


## Richard Walz

> 3 photos of my Raffaele Valente Roman mandolin. Not exactly sure of the age I'm guessing about, say, April 5th 1898 (2.48pm)................. well about that year anyway judging by the Embergher elements coupled with Vinaccia style pickguard. I'm sure you guys can give me a much better steer on that...
> It has a slightly radiused fingerboard thicker on the bass side and canted to the treble with sloping bridge to match. Fingerboard appears to be semi floating over the top.
> 
> Only problem is it sounds quiet and a little tinny to my ear - not as loud as Emberghers I've played. But it is very priddy ain't it?



Well, I like the looks of this mandolin and would love to try and tweak it... would it be for sale by any chance? Or possibly a candidate for a trade?

----------


## Eugene

> Hi, I saw your headstock photo of an instrument by Eulry. I am restoring one at present and am looking for photos so I can reconstruct pegs, bridge and fretboard. Can you help me?
> 
> Many thanks & am hapy to send my photos as well.


Is this addressed to me, Ian?  It is by no means certain that my anon. 19th-c. piece is by Eulry.  It came to me with replacement pegs and bridge.  I am, however, willing to share detail images of the head and its current set of replacement pegs...or any other aspect of the instrument.  Please PM me if this would be of use.

----------


## Margriet

> I am restoring one at present and am looking for photos so I can reconstruct pegs, bridge and fretboard. Can you help me?
> 
> Many thanks & am hapy to send my photos as well.


Hi Ian,

these early French Napoliteans came several time up, *with* photos. 
You can have a look at the thread "post a picture of your bowlback ", bowlbacks of note' nd "historical mandolins and cultural preferences". I do not know how to link from one page to the other, but you can easily find the places by "search' here on cafe on google, typing *Eulry mandolin*.

Mine was not original anymore, when I received it, the wooden pegs were replaced by machines. We will restore it to the original, with wooden pegs. It is nice to have contact with people who have the same kind of instrument, so thanks for posting.

Margriet

----------


## Jim Garber

Somehow, the instrument universe knows what I am looking for and sometimes it all comes together. Today I acquired a nice Vega Pettine Special. The story that goes with it is a little long and convoluted. I posted more photos here in the Post-a-Picture-of-Your-Bowlback thread. 

It does need some work to make it completely playable, but hopefully it will be worth it.

BTW the tailpiece is not gold as it looks in the photo, the bridge is not original and it does not have Pettine Special engraved on the gear plate... not sure why. Check out the comparison photos and it does seem to have all the correct specs.

Here are a couple of those pics, for convenience sake:

----------


## billkilpatrick

... interesting looking bridge - lovely instrument.

----------


## vkioulaphides

When Jim speaks, the universe listens.

Congrats!

Victor

----------


## Mandolin Mick

Jim-

I put that up as wallpaper on my PC!  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Jim Garber

This thread was revived last week by Marc Woodward and has some nice photos of other Pettine models.

Yes that bridge is interesting. Obviously was made by someone who cared enough about intonation but of course, was willing to pay the price for a top of the line Vega artist model. I have a feeling the mandolin might have been owned by a student of Pettine's. Perhaps some of the Providence folks might figure it out.

----------


## Marc Woodward

Congratulations Jim, looks like a lovely instrument! 
Interesting bridge... I know the back plates on the headstocks vary as Richard Walz's is dated whereas mine is not although they both say its the GP Special. Also mine has a fingerboard extension that goes almost right across the soundhole - be interesting to know kow these various differences follow chronologically....
It's in better nick than mine which now needs some serious work I fear...
How does it compare sound wise with your old Martin (I think I recall you have a high end Martin)?
Marc


http://www.myspace.com/marcwoodward

----------


## Jim Garber

I do have a high end Martin style 6, but that one is really not quite playable. That style 3 Vega is a wonderful instrument so i imagine that the Pettine will be also, hopefully even better. Marc, yours sounds great on the video. What kind of work does it need?

----------


## Jim Garber

> I posted more photos here in the Post-a-Picture-of-Your-Bowlback thread.


I posted a few more (and much better) pics on that thread noted above.

----------


## Bob A

Congratulations on your new toy. I eagerly await your attempt to describe the tonal differences between the various nationalities of mandolins.

----------


## Jim Garber

Bob: Yes, I plan to write my masters thesis on the topic. In fact what will be esp interesting will be the differences in tones produced from regional variations in both Italy and postal codes in the US. Please stay tuned. 

IIRC you have a Pettine also. Did you ever post pictures? Can you...? It seems that all of these are different in some way -- certainly there seems to be no one gear plate and the number of frets they extend to seems to change as well.

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Very nice, Jim! No question about the overall impression! It's a beauty. And I also think it's a decent instrument in terms of playability and sound. Enjoy!

----------


## billkilpatrick

just bought a pietro tonelli mandolin with a "sistema de meglio" - what's a "de meglio system?"

----------


## brunello97

Bill, 'Pietro Tonelli' is a nice sounding name, I hope it turns out a nice sounding mandolin.  Giovanni De Meglio apparently had a 'system' of structural bracing, side sound ports and cosmetic accoutrement for his Neapolitan mandolins.  Lots of discussion here (in this thread and others) about them that a search should turn up.  As well as arguments, dubious claims and a general consensus that they are pretty decent mandolins.  He certainly inspired a lot of copyists in Napoli and Catania, some who acknowledged the influence and others who didn't.  Whether 'the system' was licensed out to others (such as the Gelas system in France) I do not know but would be very interested in learning more about.  How much of the De Meglio quality transferred to other makers via 'the system' probably varies from maker to maker.

Post some pictures, please, when the mandolin arrives.

Mick

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## billkilpatrick

i'm very taken with those side vent sound holes - hope the link works:

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=STRK:MEWNX:IT

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## Bob A

I think you done well, Bill. Now you've got your travel bowlback, soon you'll need another just in case. . .

----------


## billkilpatrick

too much truth ... coffee first ...

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## billkilpatrick

between the bridge and end piece, on the tonelli mandolin i just bought, there's a small strip of wood about an inch behind the bridge - anyone know what this is for?

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## Jim Garber

I believe that that is part of the Sistema Demeglio and I would think that it functions both as a harmonics reducer (like those rubber grommets) and a means to put a little downward pressure on the strings and increase volume.

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## brunello97

> I believe that that is part of the Sistema Demeglio .......and a means to put a little downward pressure on the strings and increase volume.


Are these fastened or screwed into the top then in some way to provide this increased string break angle over the bridge? I can't recall checking closely when I played Victor's old De Meglio a few years back.  Bill, how is it fastened on the Tonelli? 

Seems like it is worth a try on an old beater to what type of contribution it makes.  Or conversely to play one with the piece on and off and note any differences.

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

Screwed into the top, with a small wood block on the inside so that the screws have some purchase.  I'm unconvinced whether the string downholder has much positive effect on the tone or the volume, but it doesn't appear to do any harm.  Ceccherinis have much the same system, but use individual T-shaped metal hooks for each string pair rather than a continuous wooden bar.

Martin

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## billkilpatrick

i'm waiting for delivery, so can't say how this thing is attached - you can see it in the tonelli link listed in message #5219.

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## brunello97

> i'm waiting for delivery, so can't say how this thing is attached - you can see it in the tonelli link listed in message #5219.


Here, for reference.  The side view shows the designed change in string angle pretty well.

Mick

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## billkilpatrick

thanks mick - photos are fuzzy but you can see that the strings aren't being clamped down that much.  probably something to dampen the harmonics, as jim said.  if it increased volume or had a noticeable effect on tone, we'd see more of them.

really curious to hear what it sounds like and whether the side vents have any effect.  vietnamese luthers are keen on those holes.

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## brunello97

Bill, I think I phrased my post poorly.  I think the pictures pretty well show (they are kind of fuzzy) an attempt to change the string angle (not by much). Seems like there are/would have been easier ways to dampen string harmonics besides screwing some metal into your top--though who knows what folks had on their minds. I wonder if those little rubber grommets were around back then....or maybe olive pits.    The Gelas mandolins have version of the under-over strategy at the bridge, albeit with a range of alternative intens(t)ions.  

Maybe the Vietnamese folks use the vent holes to help off-gas all the heavy duty spray on finish they use.

Mick

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## billkilpatrick

what would a change in the string angle produce?

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## Jim Garber

Here's pics of my de Meglio bridge area.

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## Marc Woodward

Interesting - I'd love to know if anyone has a De Meglio bridge going spare?! I need one for my De Meglio which has a replacement I made on it at the mo. Any thoughts?
Marc

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## Martin Jonas

Marc,

Ask Dave Hynds -- he makes replica bridges for all sorts of vintage bowlbacks.

Martin

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## brunello97

> what would a change in the string angle produce?


As I understand it, Bill, it helps induce more downward force on the bridge and thus more transfer of vibration to the top.  The cant in a bowlback top provides some of that (in addition to some structural support.)  Comparing the string break angle on a flat top mandolin, a canted top bowlback and an F style carved top should show a range of approaches to the idea.  It would seem that there are numerous variables that affect tone, volume, color etc. that isolating that one variable may be difficult.  It is only at the edge of my own understanding.  How much it plays into the systema of De Meglio I really don't know.  I was following up on Martin's post.  Seeing those big screws on Jim's photos reinforces my feeling that it would be a pretty ham handed way to simply dampen some overtones.  I wonder if they had something else in mind as well, whether it was effective in producing that or not.  Nonetheless, I sure would like to own one of these one day.


Mick

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## billkilpatrick

understood, grazie.  i remember seeing a bowl back with a plain pair of holes in the same place, fitted with grommets - wonder if they were there for a de meglio-style clamp?

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## nickster60

I have always had a interest in bowl backs I guess it my Italian heritage. I am thinking about getting one but I know there are some things to look for and there are some to stay away from. I dont think I want a fixer upper for my first one but in the future I think I would find it fun. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

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## Schlegel

> understood, grazie.  i remember seeing a bowl back with a plain pair of holes in the same place, fitted with grommets - wonder if they were there for a de meglio-style clamp?


I don't think so. Those holes appeared before, after, and to the side of the bridge variously with no apparent rhyme or reason to the location.

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## Eugene

> This thread was revived last week by Marc Woodward and has some nice photos of other Pettine models.
> 
> Yes that bridge is interesting. Obviously was made by someone who cared enough about intonation but of course, was willing to pay the price for a top of the line Vega artist model. I have a feeling the mandolin might have been owned by a student of Pettine's. Perhaps some of the Providence folks might figure it out.


Congrats, Jim!  That bridge's profile looks conspicuously Chicagoan (with some extra attention given to intonation).  I'd guess that whoever concocted it was using an L&H product as a reference.

----------


## Schlegel

Nickster60, your best bet for a good bowlback is to buy from cafe members like Dave or Jake, or watch the classifieds here for one being sold by a player.  What to recommend depends on budget.  Lyon and Healy made Washburns in a variety of styles and huge numbers- many of these are quite good and not too expensive.  Vega and Martins are generally a step up.  Stahl and Ditsons were labels for resellers made by different makers and many of those were made by better shops.  In italian mandolins, the regular luthiers are too numerous to mention.  Just a few names are famous now.  In order of least to most expensive I might look at Puglisi (middle class and fairly common), De Meglio (middle class but better made) Ceccherini (sort of at the top of middle class) and clustered at the top would be Calace, Embergher, and Vinaccia.  

I know I've forgotten some, and there are of course many other not as famous names that made great mandolins, but without a modern reputation all we can do is try to judge the particular mandolin in front of us as best we can.

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## billkilpatrick

> I don't think so. Those holes appeared before, after, and to the side of the bridge variously with no apparent rhyme or reason to the location.


do you have the photo? i remember seeing these holes but not sure exactly where they are on the sound board.

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## Marc Woodward

Aren't they usually just ahead of the bridge (ie between bridge and main soundhole)? - I don't think they have anything to do with the string tensioner though,
Marc

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## Jim Garber

Calace from 1905

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## billkilpatrick

> Calace from 1905


a wee bit late - sorry.  what are the holes for? ... why are they there?

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## Jim Garber

A mystery... it could possibly be cleared up by Raffaele, Jr. Does anyone know him and speak Italian... Bill?

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## vkioulaphides

Tangentially, my own, 2004 Calace, has of course no such holes; nor does it have the ivory-embedded-MOP markers for the bridge position that you find on de Meglios or Ceccherinis on occasion. Instead, in despairingly cheapskate fashion, someone made two... dings (for lack of a better word) on the soundboard to indicate the optimal location of the bridge. (Perhaps the same *ahem*... _refined workman_ who coiled the strings, oh... 197 times around the posts, facing all the wrong direction, or left the G-course side of the bridge at Himalayan heights...)

Some day, perhaps on this instrument's 10th birthday, I may consider a bit of a "face-lift", so to speak. Any suggestions? One could, of course, simply fill in the dings with varnish— surely no harm done that way. Perhaps more artful would be the placement of two markers to cover the "scene of the crime", as it were. Even two, very small beads, half submerged in the indentations, would do. When the time comes, perhaps I should post something in the "Builders, Luthiers, etc." section of the Café.

More on topic: those holes have been discussed repeatedly here, yet remain a bit of a mystery. If they are like the lateral "vents" of de Meglio, perhaps some acoustical reason may lie behind them. IMHO they add more of a _visual_ touch, weirdly attractive, than any acoustic function. But I may be missing something...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting 18th century Vinaccia in the classifieds from the Czech Republic. More pics and price here.

I wonder how some one can verify its authenticity.

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## billkilpatrick

> A mystery... it could possibly be cleared up by Raffaele, Jr. Does anyone know him and speak Italian... Bill?


egr. sig. calace -

sono una mandolinista americano, vivo in italia - scusi prego il mio italiano atroce.

alcuni amici dal sito "mandolin.cafe" mi hanno chiesto di scrivere lei per una spiegazione per i piccoli fori bianchi, sul tavola armonica, davanti il ponte nella fotografia allegata.  ci siamo chiesti tante volte il motivo di questi.

grazie mille per la sua gentile attenzione.

cordiale saluti - bill

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## Jim Garber

Very nice, Bill. Did you send it to him? Will we really know the answer, finally? Stay tuned...

----------


## billkilpatrick

yes, i sent it to him - from my use of the language he's bound to think it came from a 5-year old.

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## Jim Garber

That is okay... I usually send a Google translation that sounds like it comes from outer space.

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## billkilpatrick

Quei due fori davanti al ponticello sono una delle tante potenziali migliorie apportate al mandolino tra fine ottocento ed inizio novecento.  Si chiamano fori armonici perchè secondo l'inventore (mio nonno Raffaele) dovrebbero arricchire di armoniche il suono dello strumento.  Restano una curiosità storica perchè oggi nessun costruttore, io compreso, li adoperiamo più.  Raffaele Calace

"those two holes in front of the bridge are one of many potential improvements brought to the mandolin between the late 1800-hundreds and early 1900-hundreds.  they are called harmonic holes because, according to the inventor (my grandfather raffaele) they enrich the harmonic sound of the instrument.  they are historic curiosities as no luthiers today, myself included, adopt their use - raffaele calace."

i think "armonia, armoniche, etc. " should be understood as pertaining to tone - "tone holes."

so ... there we have it!  

next?

----------


## vkioulaphides

> i think "armonia, armoniche, etc. " should be understood as pertaining to tone


I'd rather think _overtones_, Bill, also known as "harmonics". In other words, I think his point is that the tone-holes would "enrich the sound in harmonics", i.e. make it richer in upper partials. That said, I have no personal faith that they _do_ so; all I am offering is an interpretation of _his_ claims. Even in Jr's reply, the conditional subjunctive colors the claim with a fair degree of uncertainty.

Cheers,

Victor

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, Bill. Now, if we could only contact the dead with so much ease we would have some other mysteries cleared. I wonder if Raffaele the elder patented his invention.

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## Tavy

> Tangentially, my own, 2004 Calace, has of course no such holes; nor does it have the ivory-embedded-MOP markers for the bridge position that you find on de Meglios or Ceccherinis on occasion. Instead, in despairingly cheapskate fashion, someone made two... dings (for lack of a better word) on the soundboard to indicate the optimal location of the bridge. (Perhaps the same *ahem*... _refined workman_ who coiled the strings, oh... 197 times around the posts, facing all the wrong direction, or left the G-course side of the bridge at Himalayan heights...)
> 
> Some day, perhaps on this instrument's 10th birthday, I may consider a bit of a "face-lift", so to speak. Any suggestions? One could, of course, simply fill in the dings with varnish— surely no harm done that way. Perhaps more artful would be the placement of two markers to cover the "scene of the crime", as it were. Even two, very small beads, half submerged in the indentations, would do. When the time comes, perhaps I should post something in the "Builders, Luthiers, etc." section of the Café.


Victor, assuming no actual material was removed when the dings were made, it's usually quite easy to steam them out using a soldering iron and a damp cloth - Frank Ford describes the method on the frets.com site here: http://www.frets.com/FRETSPAGES/Luth...steamout1.html.  Assuming the top is unfinished in the Neapolitan tradition, then steaming out is much easier and quicker than on a finished top (as in Frank's example), you just need to pay careful attention that your cloth doesn't go dry, or you'll risk burning the wood - don't ask me how I know!!

HTH, John.

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## billkilpatrick

> I'd rather think _overtones_, Bill, also known as "harmonics". In other words, I think his point is that the tone-holes would "enrich the sound in harmonics", i.e. make it richer in upper partials. That said, I have no personal faith that they _do_ so; all I am offering is an interpretation of _his_ claims. Even in Jr's reply, the conditional subjunctive colors the claim with a fair degree of uncertainty.


i've had holes on the brain ever since.  a bowl back lute, the cobza from hungary, sometimes has a small triangular piece missing from the sound board - i was told it was cut away to improve tone.  could holes on the soundboard provide improvements for those who look for them ... a "seek and ye shall find" scenario?

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## Marc Woodward

I know - stick some bluetack in the holes and see if you notice a lack of high harmonics....

If you do, I think I'll drill holes in the top of my Gibson!
Marc

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## vkioulaphides

My professional life's companion, my bass, has an, ah... _unwitting_ hole on the top, as some ~brilliant~ previous owner found the spot juuuuuuuust right for the soundpost, then... proceeded to NAIL it in place!  :Laughing: 

Since 1983 that I have owned this instrument, I have had that _most_ infelicitous addendum removed and, once the (*$$&^$#$#%#%#_%%#$#** NAIL was out, filled in the hole with some innocent sawdust-and-glue compound, and varnished atop, thereby veiling the proverbial multitude of sins.

For my $0.02, other than the sound-hole, F-holes, rosettes, etc. that are _substantive_ elements in the construction of our instruments, any and all _other_ openings are either damaging, or plain silly. I only reserve judgment on the de Meglio "port-holes", as they _do_ project some sound, at least to the player's own ears.

Cheers,

Victor

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## billkilpatrick

victor - i have no doubt you're right (could be an example of mind over matter) but it still leaves the nagging question of why they were put there in the first place? ... what did raffalele snr. hear - or thought that he heard - that subsequent calaces and modern luthiers do not?

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## Tavy

> victor - i have no doubt you're right (could be an example of mind over matter) but it still leaves the nagging question of why they were put there in the first place? ... what did raffalele snr. hear - or thought that he heard - that subsequent calaces and modern luthiers do not?


What did he hear?  Why the sound of cash tills ringing!  This was very much the "age of marketing" just as it is today.

BTW, just in case these holes really do do something... assuming they're acting as a Helmholz resonator, then the smaller the hole, the lower the resonant frequency.  Of course these are so small that the resulting ultra-sound can probably only be heard by blue whales... but you never know I guess  :Smile:

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## Richard Walz

I once imagined that these holes were to hold a sort of mute or dampening device... I guess not.

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## dave17120

I have 'port hoels'  in the de Meglio style, on the little flatback that I play, and it sounds great!! Someone actually said it sounded like it was being played in a bathroom. And it has  double sides to boot..... I wonder if its the holes or the double sides that make the difference???

As to Hemholz....... its a good physisists type of theory, but I'm not entirely convinced myself. I can't help feeling the shape of the body has a big influence as well.... the difference between the sound in flatback, domeback and bowlback instruments is stunning, and the sound holes are all sorts of sizes and shapes. If you were only looking at guitars say, and body shape remained fairly 'similar' then maybe, but.....  (what did he do his research on?) And how do you measure all those tonal subtleties and how they are perceived by different ears??

Then there is the human ear......... some things are more pleasing to one ear than another. I have a friend who listens to a mandolin, and says, "No, that sounds too 'boxy' for me"... I've tried, but I can't get a concept of 'boxy'.

Anyway, what am I rambling on about?? Well, for me luthiery is about artistry.... the judicious combining of disparate elements to make something pleasing to the ear, something you can't easily reduce to a formula or explain. If sound ports/holes/vents seem to work, I would use them, if they don't work, to me they bring something a little 'particuliere' to the instrument.... and we all like to think we have something no-one else has. Why not??

Nice discussion....... what about bridge tensioners next  :Smile:  Dave

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## billkilpatrick

"meglio," it should be pointed out, means "better" in italian.  my latest acquisition (name of the label inside is scratched out - all that remains is an "i" at the end) has this meglio system and for what it's worth, it allows for a better sound.  before succumbing to its charm, "boxy" would have been how i would have described the bowlback's sound.  now, generally speaking, with the "meglio" holes at the side, it sounds fuller; less acute and piercing.

my mandolin - call it a "tonelli" - was given a slap-dash restoration job - after xmas, i'll be sending it to dave for some tlc and conditioning.  the bridge and nut need replacing; there are some poorly repaired cracks in the sound board and the finger board may or may not do with a change - i'll take dave's lead on that.

to look at, i think i paid over the odds but once that's been taken care of, i think i'll love it a lot.

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## Jim Garber

> Someone actually said it sounded like it was being played in a bathroom.


My absolute favorite quote is from our illustrious Mr. Jonas, who so aptly described the DeMeglio sound as "a party in the bowl."

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## Tavy

> My absolute favorite quote is from our illustrious Mr. Jonas, who so aptly described the DeMeglio sound as "a party in the bowl."


I love that quote  :Smile: 

Dave: I suspect that on the whole (hole?) you're quite right that sound hole size doesn't play a big part in influencing the sound.  

The way I think of it is like this: as the top/body/back vibrate they pump air in and out through the soundhole, that sets up a resonance in the thin layer of air _in the soundhole apperture_, and it's that which produces the sound (of course in addition some sound, mostly the trebbles, radiates directly off the soundboard).  Think of it as a speaker cone made of air.  BTW the physics of this is actually pretty well understood.  Rather like your stereo, good sound quality depends both on good speakers and a good sound source: in this case the sound hole is the speaker, and the top/body is the sound source.  Flat, bowl and archtop instruments sound so different because the sound sources (the bits that vibrate) are so different.

Frankly, about the only thing I can see these micro-sound-ports doing is acting as a blead, siphoning off some of the pressure differences.  But that's just my personal prejudice based on no evidence whatsoever  :Wink:  

One (non destructive!) experiment someone could do though, is point a hypercardiod mic at the rear facing sound ports on a DeMeglio (with the mic from the rear as well) and see what it picks up.  The control would have to be a similar mic pointer at the neck join from behind I guess.  Or else put some cork bungs in the holes and see if it makes any difference....

Just thinking out loud yours, John.

----------


## billkilpatrick

... another fabulous facility of the de meglio system is that you can clear the bowl of dust and fly parts (left over from the spider's lunch) by blowing into the side vents - without all that stuff blasting back in your face.  coordinating this with your morning regime will leave your bowl smelling fresh and minty.

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## nickster60

Are there any modern bowl backs of note. Many of the older mandolins you see on ebay seem to have many issues some from age and others just to be neglected beyond belief. Seems it is hard to find a good one.

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## Jim Garber

> Are there any modern bowl backs of note. Many of the older mandolins you see on ebay seem to have many issues some from age and others just to be neglected beyond belief. Seems it is hard to find a good one.


That is generally true -- take it from someone who has bought quite a few. However, I have lucked out on some. You will pay for a modern one since there are few factory made ones. Eastmans are out there but I have never played one so I can't vouch for them. Take at look at the Bowlback Eye Candy page for contemporary makers.

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## vkioulaphides

Well... my daily instrument is a 2004 Calace and, while not "extraordinary", it is certainly commendable. The family business is still running, ever since 1825. I opted for a modern instrument on account of those very issues you mention.

There are other, present-day shops, too: Pandini, van den Broek, Lippi, Liuteria Romana, Brian Dean, several excellent German luthiers, et al. You may want to look under "Bowlbacks" in the Eye-Candy area of the Café.

Cheers,

Victor

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## Bob A

While made according to a somewhat different tradition, I was fortunate enough to obtain a Greek bowlback a few years ago, which is a pleasant and relatively inexpensive mandolin. Constructed of spruce and walnut, it has volume and a pleasant tone. 

Mine was obtained through the kindly auspices of another poster here, who brought it back from a trip, having had the time and inclination to hunt down a contemporary instrument of reasonable quality. As such it might be difficult to replicate, but there must be contacts that could be made to obtain a similar example. Given the current stresses on the Greek economy, it might be beneficial for all concerned to consider this sort of alternative.

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## vkioulaphides

> Given the current stresses on the Greek economy, it might be beneficial for all concerned to consider this sort of alternative.


If only our _luthiers_ could pull the country back from the cliff...  :Frown:

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## nickster60

I dont really have problem buying a older model but it isnt like buying a F model.There is much more information about them than the vintage bowlback. It also seems the prices are all over map. Hard to know what dealers or sellers to trust.

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## vkioulaphides

> It also seems the prices are all over map.


 :Smile:  ... and that's a good thing! Often the best bargains are to be found in illiquid, opaque markets, fraught with all sorts of pricing inefficiencies.

But you are right, of course, to be skeptical a LOT of lemons out there! So I would suggest that you gather information _first_, _then_ consider a purchase "actively", cash-in-hand. 

Armed with the necessary information, one should celebrate the relative obscurity of the bowlback market, as opposed to dreading it. At the end of the day, you get more mandolin for your money than you would with ANY other type of mandolin!

Cheers, and best of luck!

Victor

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## Jim Garber

The best bet is to play one in person and pay the extra for the dealer's price esp for the better quality ones. Ebay may seem like a bargain but unless you do know what you are doing and know what to look for and what to ask, you are walking on relatively thin ice. In reality, you may pay $600 for a dealer's price mandolin and get the same on eBay for $300 that may need $300 of work on it. Unless you are skilled to do it yourself, for a good playable one, eBay is not always a bargain.

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## Matt Vuksinich

Please allow me to sing praise to the modern bowlbacks made by Daniel Larson in the U.S. (no relation to the Larson Bros.).  He apparently collaborated with Richard Walz on a copy of the venerable Vega Pettine Special . . . . and it is my very favorite bowlback.  I was pretty hesitant about buying a modern "copy"--after all, I have enjoyed playing vintage Embergher, Calace, and Vinnacia, all of which are wonderful--but coming from Richard, I took the plunge . . . . and have never regretted it.  They sold for $3800 a couple yrs back, and from the info on his site, that hasn't changed--and boy, what a treat!  Of course, bowlback and carved tops are completely different animals, but a much greater bang for the buck than you'll find in an archtop.

Nevertheless, to be fair, in the interest of sacrilege:  a couple yrs ago at the CMSA convention, I heard someone playing an Eastman bowlback, which sounded wonderful.  Now, I admit a prejudice against Eastman (I've been greatly unimpressed by the few I've tried), and never played their bowlback--but this one sounded great.

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## billkilpatrick

interesting bowlback here - only one day left - i can't grab the image:

http://cgi.ebay.it/mandolino-/320643...item4aa7d67904

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## Jim Garber

1893 Vinaccia -- just came up in the classifieds.

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## Bruce Clausen

Nice looking instrument.  Even if you're not after a Vinaccia check out the seller's website for some very nice sound clips of his various ensembles.

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## Martin Jonas

How intriguing: this is said to be an 1893 Vinaccia, but it has the two little holes next to the bridge which I think of as a Calace invention, and one that even in Calaces only started to appear after around 1910-20.  Has anybody else seen them in a Vinaccia?  I guess there is a possibility that they were retrofitted in the 1920s by a previous owners who took Calace's marketing spiel seriously.

Martin

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## Bob A

The Calace holes are on the other side of the bridge on my instrument.

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## Schlegel

Later Vinaccias get very Calace-like.   My impression was that this occurred post-1900.  I also think the "tone-holes" show up in the teens or at least after 1910.  The current Raffaele Calace stated that they were an idea of his eponymously named grandfather, as I recall from an earlier thread.

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## Jim Garber

There are also some later Vinaccias (1920s or so) which are patterned after Emberghers. I guess they made what sold or what they were asked to make.

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## michaelpthompson

I'm not sure how notable this is, but I thought I'd add it in the interests of historical information. I live in Arvada Colorado USA. We have a really nice local history museum. As I was showing my wife around it this evening, I came upon this interesting find.



The label on this instrument says they aren't even sure who donated it. No other information is given. It's a twelve string instrument, four courses of three. There are only eleven strings on it, it seems to be missing one from the top tuner on the right hand side.





It's definitely of bowlback construction.



Anyway, thought you might find it interesting.

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## Jim Garber

Oscar Schmidt -- look at the monogram on the PG. They seem to have made most of the 12 string bowlbacks out there.

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## brunello97

Interesting example of a Schmidt 12 string. Is the photo flipped or the pick guard put on upside down?

Mick

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## michaelpthompson

I didn't flip the photo, that's what it looked like.

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## Jim Garber

I think Mick is pulling your leg, Michael. OS made those "negative image" pickguards as well, for some reason. I find that prob 9 out of ten 12 strings I see out there are OS products. They must have cranked out a bunch.

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## brunello97

You would think they might +/- the inlay on the pickguards if they could control the cutting precisely enough to get two out of one piece of material.  I don't have an OS 'negative' pickguards in my files, though some from other makers. (The Royal Academy of English Mandolinettos with Gypsy Girl Decals-or whatever they are called-used the technique often.)  Are the "S"s typically backwards on the 'negative' OS pickguards? 

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Here are a few "negative" pickguarded OS's -- none of which have the reverse "S".

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## brunello97

> Here are a few "negative" pickguarded OS's -- none of which have the reverse "S".


Maybe this is why that one is in the museum.... :Wink: 

Mick

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## billkilpatrick

the attached photo was purloined from dave hynds's mouth-watering site.

curious to know if there are any advantages to this style tuning head - structural or otherwise.  does the square at the top have a purpose or is it all - the whole design - down to aesthetics?

----------


## Tavy

> the attached photo was purloined from dave hynds's mouth-watering site.
> 
> curious to know if there are any advantages to this style tuning head - structural or otherwise.  does the square at the top have a purpose or is it all - the whole design - down to aesthetics?


Aesthetics as far as I know - effectively the equivalent of the scoll on a violin peghead.  IMO that's one of the better looking ones, I don't normally like that style of peghead  :Disbelief:

----------


## Jim Garber

My Pandini has a head like that, Frankly, for practical purposes the slot head is actually more of a pain to change strings. I think it is a copy of the upper end older Italian instruments like the 5 bis Embergher (see below). I think the Embergher (1920) and the later Cerrone made Embergher (1946) is much more elegant than the one you posted, however the concept is the same.

----------


## vkioulaphides

I have heard/read the argument that this sort of peg-head is _ergonomically_ superior, in that the player's hand can turn the pegs more conveniently, from behind, as the instrument is normally held. True, to some extent, although _changing_ strings is relatively _less_ convenient than on a flat, "Neapolitan" peg-head. 

I like them, one and all. I would never base a decision to acquire or _not_ to acquire an instrument on this issue.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Margriet

I see this kind of heads on guitar-lutes as well, often is the wood carved, like in your examples. They are often German.

Other mandolins that have it - are the Lombardian mandolins and the older mandolino's.

My Roman Ferrarotti has it as well, a bit style Embergher,  as well as a Rafaele Disantino. I hope I can include some photos.[ATTACH][/ATTACH]

----------


## Jim Garber

Yes, elegant but IMHO not sop practical. Then again, no less practical than a std violin scroll as far as changing strings.

----------


## billkilpatrick

practical? - maybe not - but it has orchestra pit-cred', i'll bet.

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## Matt DeBlass

> the attached photo was purloined from dave hynds's mouth-watering site.
> 
> curious to know if there are any advantages to this style tuning head - structural or otherwise.  does the square at the top have a purpose or is it all - the whole design - down to aesthetics?


Makes it easier to hang on a coat rack after you're done playing?

----------


## billkilpatrick

i was thinking you could afix a tiny mirror there to check your appearance for the residual effects of a quick repast or any recreational activity you might have engaged in, prior to stepping out on stage.

----------


## Jim Garber

I was actually thinking of putting a small LCD screen in it so I could watch TV or surf the 'Net on it.

----------


## billkilpatrick

any aps?

----------


## Marc Woodward

I like that idea Jim. We could do away with music stands and have the score scrolling (literally!).

Slightly related: here's a vid of my Raffaele Valente Roman instrument (complete with slotted headstock...):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO_KZ3SFl3s

Marc

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

Victor, you are so right in saying that: _"the argument that this sort of peg-head is ergonomically superior, in that the player's hand can turn the pegs more conveniently, from behind, as the instrument is normally held"_.
I am however not with you by the line that followed: _"True, to some extent, although changing strings is relatively less convenient than on a flat, "Neapolitan" peg-head"._  
Even then I personally like the "Roman" headstock more. It is simply mechanically ánd as mentioned by you - and others - ergonomically superior.
And that on both of the "Roman" mandolin head designs; the flat 'guitar'-like one and the long 'square-end' design.  
This long 'square-end' design on mandolins tuned in fifths, as under discussion here, was most likely first seen on the higher-end mandolins made by Luigi Embergher in the very beginning of the 20th Century. 
And - to answer Bill - I think that Luigi Embergher, with his beautiful 'square-end' headstock design that goes back to the gut-strung Mandolinos from the 18th century with their slender and also in a square ending headstock, Embergher, in my opinion, shows his historical consciousness.
Embergher's design was copied immediately by other luthiers in Italy, even by the most famous like Rafaele Calace and those of the Vinaccia family, and a bit later by mandolin makers all over Europe. 


What they didn't copy was however most important; I have tried to explain this often not understood (see for instance how the strings are attached on 5bis Embergher mandolins with is idea on the photos posted by Jim at this topic) but ingenious 'hook' idea at my *Embergher* website. 
An idea also that in my opinion should be copied more today. It will sure eliminate a lot of irritation...

You can scroll down to the bottom of the *'Plectra and Strings'* page and find out more on *"How strings are attached to the tuning device of the higher-end 'Embergher' mandolin models"*:

http://www.embergher.com/index.php?id=56


Enjoy!

Best greetings, Alex.

----------


## Matt DeBlass

On a very practical note, if one were setting a bowlback face-down on a table would the projecting square help at all in protecting the front of the instrument? I don't own a bowlback (yet) so I'm not sure.

----------


## brunello97

Being an architect and not an engineer, I am a bit puzzled as to how the slotted headstock may be so clearly judged 'mechanically' superior. I suppose fixing the free end into the headstock as opposed to it cantilevering out from the head in a Neapolitan or Fender P-Bass fashion might offer a slight bit of increased stiffness in the overall system which might translate into a bit of mechanical advantage.  But considering how many guitars, violins, mandolins, banjos etc. ignore that method, the obvious 'mechanical' superiority must somehow elude most instrument makers. (No doubt some wonks here have figured a way to measure that with some device other than their hands.)  The gear ratios on my Roman mandolin seem the same as on my Neapolitans. No mechanical advantage there, either.  Ergonomically, I am with the Embergherians-clearly easier wrist position. Except those knobs are so tiny....

Happily familiar with both systems (on guitars and mandolins) to me this seems like another in the long line of enjoyable MC conversations:  Things WE like are inherently BETTER than the things other people like..... And then what follows are different levels of justification and rationalization.  Some folks always will seem to insist on terms like 'superiority' over 'preference'  in the course of conversation. 

FWIW, I always thought the Embergher flat head ends (and those dopey dragons) to be extremely silly details, distinctly out-of-place in what is otherwise a succinct design statement.  (I feel the same way about F5 scrolls.) But I acknowledge the passion with which any player attaches to their instrument of choice (none so much as those from Sigs. Luigi e Orville) and enjoy the rapport with which we can all share our opinions.   A tip of the hat to our resident Scaramouche, Bill, for rolling out the orange.

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

googling "scaramouche" ...

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Mick and all, 

Thanks for your comment! Indeed the word _"superior"_ is perhaps a bit to much here... And besides, I like other headstock designs and other metal tuning mechanisms too. 
I probably got caried away in my enthousiasm. And that has likely to do with what one likes better or best and the preference that comes with that. 

But with the high-end models made by Luigi Embergher (ánd his other high-end instruments of the mandolin family) the case is a bit more complex compared to all other makers and their instruments at the time. He designed a headstock and placed a mechanical excellent working tuning device in it. Tuning mechanics that were made to his specifications and with the best quality of metal materials. Even the 'knobs' which you mention as (quote): _"so tiny"_, are - on Luigi Embergher's high-end instruments - as large as the buttons on the tuning mechanics of the Spanisch guitar. Also of interest is that the long 'square-end' headstock design makes it possible to place the gears wide in the metal plate, and so giving enough room for the large buttons to be 'handled' easy (see attachment).

Interesting to note and of importance to what we are comparing is to know what mechanics exactly we are talking about. I am describing the best Embergher tuning mechanics; the ones that Luigi Embergher stamped with his initials: *'E L'* (see attachment).


This and other important improvements of the mandolin were part of Embergher's dream to make the Mandolin accepted as a true concert instrument in the World of music. And I sure believe that he succeeded in this and that he was, ánd still is, far ahead of time.

Unfortunately Luigi Embergher's quality tuning mechanics are, probably because of WWII, manufactury problems and due to the lack of quality materials, not seen on the Cerrones and Pecoraro "Embergher" high-end instruments. They used a simple and far less superior (sorry again for that word) and mass factory made tuning mechanic (indeed, complete with the simplistic and oh "_so tiny knobs_"...). From that time on  trouble started all over again... 

But luckily Hendrik van den Broek and Lorenzo Lippi recognize this and they try to make their tuning mechanics after Luigi Embergher's design, themselves. 


Best, Alex.

Photo: The *'E L'* stamped Luigi Embergher tuning mecaninc with the large buttons.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Matt DeBlass,


Although I do not like it so much to lay a bowlback mandolin with its face down on a table, I can tell you that side of the square end of the Embergher headstock indeed makes that the soundboard does not touch the table. What does are the bridge (and strings at that particular point) on the mandolin, and the side of the square-end (see attachment) of the headstock.

More security - and much nicer to look at - you will get by placing a valuable bowlback on its back, side or in a mandolin stand. Or, if that is not possible, by putting it back into its case.


Best greetings,

Alex.

----------


## Martin Jonas

I think there are two separate design features being discussed in this thread: the bishop's staff type curved headstock extension, and the slotted headstock.  The curved headstock, I think we can agree, is simply for looks without added functionality.  Some people like it and others don't.  I'm no fan, but I recognise that they were rather more graceful in execution on actual Embergher instruments compared to the mostly crude, and mostly German, imitations.  The slotted headstock is a different issue.  As far as I can see, there are several distinct advantages:

1. All tuner buttons turn the same direction, unlike on solid headstocks where the treble side tuners turn the opposite way from the bass side.

2. No exposed steel posts and spiky string ends that get snagged on clothes and skin.

3. For the same break angle over the nut, a slotted headstock has a much shallower headstock angle making building easier, and indeed making it more viable to have the neck and headstock carved out of a single piece of wood as on Emberghers instead of a two-piece neck with a long diagonal glue joint as on most Neapolitan bowlbacks.  I note that Fender introduced the string tree on their electric guitars for the same purpose, to achieve a shallower headstock angle and less wood wastage.

The downside is when restringing: it is arguably more fiddly to get the string ends threaded into the slotted headstock, although this is partially balanced by the fact that they are more forgiving in respect of string length, adn the strings are never going to slip off the top of the posts.

Martin

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Martin Jonas, 


Well said, couldn't agree with you more!

There are indeed more separate design features being discussed in this thread. Perhaps even three(!) with the 'hook' string-fastener on the Luigi Embergher higher-end instruments as explained earlier on in: (http://www.embergher.com/index.php?id=56).

And with the 'hook' in the string hole there are no problems at all ending up with to much string windings on the tube inside the slot, or with string(s) slipping off the top of the posts as seen on the Neapolitan style tuning mechanics.

Best, Alex.

----------


## vkioulaphides

I must first compliment Martin for segregating the two main design features— a _most_ salient distinction! And of course much of it boils down to personal experiences. I, for example, can restring my Calace much faster and more conveniently that I restring my Embergher—low-end, both. But that may very well have to do with advancing far-sightedness —O Death, Where IS Thy *String*?— on my part that with the design and construction _per se_. Conversely (and, I think, supported by more robust, ergonomic argumentation), I can turn the pegs on a slotted head with far greater convenience than on any of my Neapolitans.

For a layman like myself, a bishop's staff may be a bit much. Still, the instrument "hanging" from it is often a true gem, so "you can't take the priest and leave the vicar", if I may say so without offending the pious and observant.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

Hmmm. An enjoyable (if not particularly convincing) discussion, gentlemen.  And while I remain a skeptic, I must remind you that my wife is the most beautiful and intelligent woman in the world. And all those seemingly peculiar things that she does now and then, well they no doubt have some real purpose for her (and are all simply wonderful to me.)  

Now if I could only explain how my grandmother makes the absolute best cheesecake in the world.  I am sure you would all agree....

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Not exactly a high end instrument but I believe from the overall length measurement the seller provides that this may be a mandola. ebay mandola(?).

It needs quite a bit of work but these don't seem to be all that common. Prob Lyon & Healy. I have an American Conservatory bowlback mandola and it is a nice instrument.

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## vkioulaphides

Indeed, "quite a bit"... 

Cheers,

Victor

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## brunello97

Jim and Victor, I took the plunge on this one assuming from the dimension and the general proportions that it might be a mandola. It looks like 'quite a bit of work' indeed. I repaired a shorter scale bowlback mandola earlier last year (it was in worse shape believe it or not) and I really enjoy playing it a lot. That got me interested in keeping my eye out for another, larger one. The price was reasonable enough. Figuring out how to patch that hole in the back may be less reasonable.  I'll post some pictures when it arrives and I can get a better look at it.

Mick

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## vkioulaphides

Go for it, Mick! It may very well turn out to be a nice instrument, once properly restored. And if the purchase price is right —and you're willing and able to put in the work _yourself_— then... why not? 

Looking forward to reports of rehabilitation...

Cheers,

Victor

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## Graham McDonald

And it does have that very tasty Larson Brothers type of purfling, or am I being to imaginative?

It might well need a whole new stave in the back, and I suspect the soundboard will need to come off to repair that.

graham

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## brunello97

Yes, Graham, I think you are right about the sequence of repair events. I hope I have a piece of rosewood around here large enough or else I will need to do some creative shopping.  Any recommendations on that?

I must admit that since Jim had his great score on the Rohlfing/Larson that I have had stars in my eyes. (BTW, how is that bowl?)  No doubt, Jim's L+H attribution is on the money but it does make me wonder about how often folks visited one another in these various centers of mandolin making. Chicago was a much smaller city back then, but I'll bet the mandolin world was always a fairly small place, as it is today.  Design ideas and trends probably traveled about as quickly as they do now, albeit by other means.  As did Victor, I started out on the 'low end' of the four-string instrument spectrum and so these 'dolas and 'cellos remain close to the heart.  I think Paul H once described a mandocello as 'growling'.  I love that description.

Mick

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## Graham McDonald

The broken strip looks more like a piece of birds-eye maple, though it is hard to tell from the pic. A piece of that should not be too hard to find. Matching the colour could be fun..

graham

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## Jim Garber

Well, that is exciting. I am glad you got that one, Mick. It looks like the seller pictured some of the broken pieces from the back but it is hard to tell.

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## brunello97

Jim, I saw some of those pieces in the photos but it is hard to tell whether all the fragments are there.  I like the alternating staves of figured plain wood on the bowl. Some thought went in there.  Graham, you might be right about the maple, I can't really tell from the photos.  It will be great to have a proper scale mandola in the posse, though.  Certainly, these are rare enough that it is worth the effort to get them back up and playable.  Jim, I have seen your pictures of your AC mandola.  I'll bet it sounds good. What is your take on it?

Mick

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## michaelpthompson

Well, I certainly feel better about all the work I'm having to do on my eBay bowlback. It had a lot of unforeseen problems, but is still in a lot better shape than this one. Have fun!

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## billkilpatrick

mick - mega-respect but ... aw' mate - you'll be in the garage/basement for months!

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## Marc Woodward

Good luck Mick!
For anyone else thinking of spending long hours in a workshop here's an intriguing beast:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Quaglia-...item3a629c9559

Fascinating back/neck design!

Marc

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## brunello97

Bill, at the rate I work it will probably take longer than that.  But it helps keep my wife happy.  This way I don't try to 'fix' things around the house....

Mick

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## brunello97

Marc, I have a few mandolins from Giuseppe Quaglia in my image files.  Very exuberant work. He paid a lot of attention to 'back side' and the transitions between bowl and neck and neck and headstock are very nice.  

To my eye the one you linked to looks a tad Roman in its profile with a bit of that elegant Embergher-ian recurve transition to the neck. Some of the top repairs don't look all that daunting but the neck angle looks pretty woeful in the side view of the Quaglia. That means some serious work.  The label has a different address than the ones in my files.  Seems the shop may have moved?

Mick

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## Jim Garber

That Quaglia is more than a tad Romanesque. The neck profile certainly looks triangular, the headstock style is definitely Embergherian and of course the recurve, which to my eye does not look anywhere as refined as Luigi's shop's work.

Interesting that these Neapolitan shops also produced Roman style but perhaps they were commissioned.

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## brunello97

I agree....I think all the binding bling on the Quaglia competes with that curve.  Most of the Emberghers I have in my files are pretty understated in their top binding which tends to emphasize the elegance of the recurve (which isn't always that elegant on some of the lower-end models.) Quaglia seemed to enjoy lavishing a lot of attention on the back, another area where LE paid careful attention to details.  Giovanni certainly was looking at the right stuff.  It may not be for everyone, but I like the looks his work from the few examples I have seen.  Certainly, I have never heard or played one. Yet.

Mick

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Hi everyone!
In my blog trixorda.blogspot.com I have posted an article about two greek mandolin makers of the 19th century. The one is Stamos who was making mandolins only with 4 ribs-an ancient technic probably from ancient Greek Pandourida(Long necked lute) an the other one is Ioannis Stathopoulos, cousin  of the famous Anastasio Stathopoulo(Epiphone).Stathopoulos was making Neapolitan mandolins but this mandolin has a round body shape close to as 1700-1800 tambouras (long neck lute, bouzouki ancestor close to saz) were made as Nikos Fronimopoulos-Greek Luthier proved.
Because the article is in Greek I will be happy to give explanations if someone is interest.

----------


## billkilpatrick

great photos - thanks.

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## Margriet

> Because the article is in Greek I will be happy to give explanations if someone is interest.


And I will be very happy if you want to do that, Giannis! Maybe you could make a resume in english, of your article? I am loooking sometimes on your blog, but I cannot understand enough and the googletranslate machine does not work on technical things.

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## brunello97

Very nice looking Martin Style 6 on the ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_5705wt_977

I have always enjoyed how Martin balanced the prevalent trend towards bling with their simple, elegant design aesthetic.

Is that an ivory bridge? Yikes.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Exceedingly similar to the 1913 one posted on Frets.com Museum page. Yes, I think they usually had ivory bridges... mine does.

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## vkioulaphides

Yes, beware of google-and-similar translators, often challenged by the distinction between _doghe_ (i.e. staves) and familiar canines. Few luthiers would take pride in "numerous, finely sliced _dogs_" on their bowls.  :Laughing: 

Cheers,

Victor

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## brunello97

> Exceedingly similar to the 1913 one posted on Frets.com Museum page. Yes, I think they usually had ivory bridges... mine does.


Jim, do you play yours often?  What is your take on its sound viz your Vega (which I understand you love) or your Pandini or other Italian bowls?  Eugene has often said how much he enjoys his Martin, but I can't recall which one he has.  I think it is the "quaranta due cani a fette" model, but I'm not sure.  

Mick

----------


## michaelpthompson

> Yes, I think they usually had ivory bridges... mine does.


That's one SERIOUS case of MAS dude! :-)

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## Alex Timmerman

> Hi everyone!
> In my blog trixorda.blogspot.com I have posted an article about two greek mandolin makers of the 19th century. The one is Stamos who was making mandolins only with 4 ribs-an ancient technic probably from ancient Greek Pandourida(Long necked lute) an the other one is Ioannis Stathopoulos, cousin  of the famous Anastasio Stathopoulo(Epiphone).Stathopoulos was making Neapolitan mandolins but this mandolin has a round body shape close to as 1700-1800 tambouras (long neck lute, bouzouki ancestor close to saz) were made as Nikos Fronimopoulos-Greek Luthier proved.
> Because the article is in Greek I will be happy to give explanations if someone is interest.


 
Hello Giannis, 

Very nice to see that you are really into digging to find the roots of mandolin making and playing. From Victor we already know that there has - and still is - a nice and very interesting mandolin history in Greece. 
And therefore it is all the more interesting ánd important to learn more about the history of Greek luthiers making mandolins - and the other instruments of the Mandolin family - in your country. 

I would love to read a translation of your article. Thanks in advance and please, do keep us posted about it.


Cheers, Alex.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Thank you Alex!
I am working on it!

----------


## n0ukf

> Seems like there are/would have been easier ways to dampen string harmonics besides screwing some metal into your top--though who knows what folks had on their minds. I wonder if those little rubber grommets were around back then....or maybe olive pits.
> 
> Mick


On mine, I wove a piece of boot lace between the strings then tucked (hid) it under the scallop of the tailpiece to damp the strings downhill of the bridge. I also have a small scrap of suede that I tuck between the scallop and strings and lay over the tailpiece to soften the impression it makes on my forearm when playing.

----------


## brunello97

> mick... aw' mate - you'll be in the garage/basement for months!


My recent purchase of a bowlback mandola arrived the other day and it is in about as sad shape as I imagined.  Bill is no doubt right in his estimation of repair time.  I think the top may be salvageable, but it will need to come off, ideally to repair the broken stave (birds-eye, as ol' eagle-eye Graham noted.) It seems the top was the victim of the neck rotating up so the neck will need to be reset as well. All fairly step-by-step work, but in my hands, I  risk fouling up that Larson-esque binding that Graham referred to. Not to get all imaginative, but it does also the LarBros ebony reveal under the fretboard binding and the very un-L+H serial number (10101) stamped on the neck block. It bears little resemblance to Jim's American Conservatory bowlback mandola, so its provenance seems much less clear to me.  

As you can see from the photo, it has little similarity to my other no-name bowl, patiently waiting its turn in the repair queue.  I took these pictures for comparison sake this evening.  The mandolin is a Ditson (Vega?) Empire, the smaller mandola is the 14.75" scale Truax that I re-topped back in 2010.  The recent one has a 17.75" or so scale based on the bridge scarring on the top.  The other mandola is at 16.75". Its bowl is fatter and deeper than the 'new' one, but a bit shorter.  I look forward to getting both Bubbas up and playable. Maybe try tuning the big one as an octave.  That would be a new thing for me.  Looking forward to some low end.

Mick

----------


## Tavy

> As you can see from the photo, it has little similarity to my other no-name bowl, patiently waiting its turn in the repair queue.  I took these pictures for comparison sake this evening.  The mandolin is a Ditson (Vega?) Empire, the smaller mandola is the 14.75" scale Truax that I re-topped back in 2010.  The recent one has a 17.75" or so scale based on the bridge scarring on the top.  The other mandola is at 16.75". Its bowl is fatter and deeper than the 'new' one, but a bit shorter.  I look forward to getting both Bubbas up and playable. Maybe try tuning the big one as an octave.  That would be a new thing for me.  Looking forward to some low end.


Looks like quite a collection you have there!  :Smile: 

The 17.75" scale mandola was probably intended to be tuned GDAE originally, so tuning it that way is by no means out the question... whatever you end up doing keep us informed!

Best of luck, John.

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice arsenal, Mick. Soon you will join me in the Home for Insane Bowlback Collectors. Every so often they let me out of my strait jacket so I can play a few of them.

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## brunello97

Hopefully, I can get at least one of the Bubbas playable by summertime. John, I look forward to the GDAE tuning. I haven't made much headway in viola staff reading, but have been fairly desultory about it. I have a five string electric with a low C but somehow that has always seemed much more natural for chording and leads.  BTW the shipwreck mandola arrived in one of those cheap cardboard and canvas cases that L+H and others used back in the '00s and '10s. We had a good laugh as it is larger than my overnight bag.

Mick

----------


## Marc Woodward

Curious.... 1588?! Hmmm.... Thoughts anyone?

Marc
http://cgi.ebay.it/antico-misterioso...item45f89183a1

----------


## Schlegel

A faded 8, perhaps.  Not a 5.  Mandolins did not even exist in this style in 1588.  Even the Stradivarius mandolinos from the 17thC look far more lute-like than this.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Curious.... 1588?! Hmmm.... Thoughts anyone?
> 
> Marc
> http://cgi.ebay.it/antico-misterioso...item45f89183a1


That looks like some strange later restoration. Assuming that the label is authentic and says 1788, it looks to me to have a period headstock but everything else looks more like late 19th century/early 20th, at least stylistically. Even the bowl doesn't look quite right to me.

----------


## brunello97

A very pretty Ricca mandolin just sold on the ebay.  

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_500wt_1129

One of the nicer ones I have seen in a while. Check the inlay MOP around the top.... The seller makes reference to the Ricca catalog that our friend Jim posted on his web site, so I wonder if the auction winner is MC-connected. I owned a Ricca bowlback for awhile and while it wasn't the greatest, it was very light and responsive in that Neapolitan way.  Ounce-for-ounce, it was one of the prettier mandolins I have had.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Boy, I don't know how I miss these things. It went for a semi-reasonable price, too, tho I suspect it will cost that and then some to restore to playability. Oh well... just what I need, right?

----------


## Jim Garber

A lovely looking Embergher Type 2 is on the classifieds. I would have gone for it but I have my style 3 undergoing restoration. This one looks all ready to go

----------


## vkioulaphides

Lovely, indeed... Lucky buyer, whoever that ends up being.  :Smile: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Interesting antique shop find discussed on Maestronet, with good photos:

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/inde...owtopic=323015

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting to hear a bunch of violin guys talk about mandolins.

----------


## Rodney Riley

Picture of my Father-in-law's MayFlower bowlback.


Starting to have some serious cracks from the sound hole. Label reads, "MayFlower Mandolins" "Sweetest Tone Made"  "Flower and Groebel Manufacturers" Chicago Ill U.S.A.

Guess I don't know how to attach the picture from My profile page album :Frown: 

It's there if you want to see it.  :Smile:

----------


## Jim Garber

Rodney: your father-in-law's mandolin

----------


## brunello97

Not to raise the specter of the L-word again, but... Booo.  The Mayflower, Vega, Larson similarities appear to be many.  Rodney, do you have more images of your Mayflower mandolin?  Any signs of a serial number anywhere.

Mick

----------


## Rodney Riley

Pictures I took of the label were not very clear with my camera. And I forgot to check and write down the serial number. Not for sure when the next time we will be in Texas so I can look at it again. sorry  :Frown: 

picture of back and label at My Profile page.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is the label -- I always liked the labels of these May Flowers. However, I don't think I will ever be able to spell Groehsl correctly.

----------


## MandoSquirrel

Speaking of Rodney's & bowlbacks, I recently made a few crappy pics of my Washburn 215. Unfortunately, there is some top sinkage mostly on the treble side, but it's still fun to try to play.(Pyramid lights seem to make it a bit better than the Lenzner/Fisomas):

----------


## Margriet

on eBay a Calace 1957
http://cgi.ebay.nl/Raritat-Mandoline...#ht_562wt_1139

----------


## brunello97

MandoS, the quality of wood chosen on this era Washburns never ceases to amaze me. What a beautiful specimen. I hope it plays as well as it looks.

Mick

----------


## MandoSquirrel

> MandoS, the quality of wood chosen on this era Washburns never ceases to amaze me. What a beautiful specimen. I hope it plays as well as it looks.
> 
> Mick


Yeah, the wood is nice, the sound is bowl-nice with a sort of reverb/delayness to it, & other than a couple of frets up the neck, it's fun to play. Looks like somebody used masking tape to hold the tailpiece cover in place for a while; it has a wood screw in place of the little knob that turns to open or close it.
For $70(including shipping) I figured it wasn't too bad a gamble off ebay; & I don't mind what I paid. At least there are no splits in the back seams, or cracks in the top(or fretboard, like some on ebay) 
Sorry the back picture's pretty blurry, I should try re-doing some pics.

----------


## MandoSquirrel

Margriet;



> on eBay a Calace 1957
> http://cgi.ebay.nl/Raritat-Mandoline...#ht_562wt_1139


That's a beauty, I bet the price doesn't stay low for long!

----------


## Margriet

MandoSquirrel, it is strange: I clicked the link you quote and it is said the advertisement does not exist anymore, though my link still works !

Margriet

----------


## MandoSquirrel

That's curious; I copied & pasted from your post(didn't click "Reply With Quote", as I started the post with a boo-boo).

----------


## Martin Jonas

> That's curious; I copied & pasted from your post(didn't click "Reply With Quote", as I started the post with a boo-boo).


That's why the link didn't work: If you use "reply with quote", it will copy the code for the hyperlink as well.  If you copy and paste, it will only copy precisely what's on the screen.  For a long URL, such as the one in Margriet's link, the screen display is truncated with the middle section replaced by "...".  Therefore, clicking on the link in your quoted message sends a non-existing URL to Ebay and the link won't work.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Here is an exuberant Regal (I would assume pre-Chicago) with rather overwrought front and a nicely scalloped bowl, with the neck-collar detail featured in a number of recent discussions.  Looks like some Handel tuners as well. Not a lot of images available on the ebay ad unfortunately:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Bowlback...ht_8425wt_1113

Some vigorous early bidding.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

They even had almost as many pics of the case as of the mandolin. Nice upper level Wulschner with fluted bowl.

----------


## Marc Woodward

'Wulschner' Jim? Wassat?!

Marc

----------


## Jim Garber

He was the name behind early Regal brand made in Indianapolis, IN. Samuel Siegel played Regals.

----------


## Marc Woodward

Ah, I didn't know that. I kind of thought Regal were one of those brands which had their manufacturing done by others if you know what I mean!
Cheers,
Marc

----------


## Jim Garber

> I kind of thought Regal were one of those brands which had their manufacturing done by others if you know what I mean!


No, Just the opposite. The later version of the regal Company was huge and made lots of unlabelled and store-labelled instruments. The joke among us vintage nuts, if you can't attribute it mention "Regal, Harmony or Kay" or just some large Chicago maker.

----------


## Mark Levesque

Hello all!

At my last performance a couple brought this bowlback and, knowing nothing, I thought I would ask if anyone knew the maker.
[ATTACH][/ATTACH]

----------


## brunello97

Here is a slightly nicer De Mureda mandolin than the many run of the mill examples that show up.  It appears to be in fairly good condition with a reasonable immediate purchase price. This could be a nice find, though one can't tell entirely about the condition from the limited photos. Local pick up only, so our UK friends take note. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_836wt_1113

Mick

----------


## Richard Walz

> Hello all!
> 
> At my last performance a couple brought this bowlback and, knowing nothing, I thought I would ask if anyone knew the maker.
> [ATTACH][/ATTACH]



Must be a Regal, hey Jim?

----------


## Jim Garber

My guess is upper end American Conservatory for Mark's student's mandolin.

----------


## Marc Woodward

Hmm, Roman mandolin here:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BELLISSIMO-MAN...76944615167569

Embergher? De Santis? (Alex?)
Marc

----------


## Jim Garber

It doesn't look like any Embergher I am familiar with. For the most part Luigi stuck with set model features with subtle variations. That fancy pearl and mastic border is not like LE nor is that shape scratchplate. It does look nice, tho.

There are other Roman style makers even outside Rome. For instance, I have one by Carlo Colombo Bruno of Turino.

----------


## Marc Woodward

Some of the early Emberghers had symmetrical scratchplates I believe though I've never seen one like this. Headstock looks Embergher-y though and the shape of the bowl - hence I wondered about De Santis?

----------


## Jim Garber

I have a 1904 Embergher 3 with a symmetrical scratchplate (pictured below) but the shape is different. Yes, headstock is like Embergher.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a Desantis photo from Alex's site.

----------


## Martin Jonas

I threw a lowball bid at this German bowlback mandocello, but was outbid:

Link

Condition looks reasonable, except for that crudely repaired crack on the treble side, but it looks a somewhat lowgrade instrument.  Nice folk art on the scratchplate.

I'm still wondering about a second one, which has a day or so to run.  It's described as a mandolin, with no indication of size, but from the body shape I'd say it's either a mandola or another mandocello.  I might throw a bid at this one, too -- the instrument looks slightly higher grade, but (and it's a big but) there is no fretboard.  I'll ask the seller for the size.

Link

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

That second one looks more like a mandola (octave tuning) to me, but why not just ask the seller for some dimensions?

----------


## Martin Jonas

Indeed, Jim.  Getting the overall size from the seller should clarify matters.

Martin

----------


## Fliss

That looks like an interesting challenge for the DIY enthusiast, Martin!  

Fliss

----------


## brunello97

Too bad on the mandocello, Martin. "Gesamtlänge ca. 105 cm"  That is >41" to those of us using the ancient system.  I like the inlay work as well....

The mandola looks like a fun project. Getting a pre-cut ebony or rosewood fretboard for that shouldn't be much of a problem.  Good luck with the bidding!

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

Seller says he doesn't have time to measure the overall length of the board-less instrument before the auction ends, but that he is "pretty certain it's a mandolin" and not a mandola or mandocello.  So, I won't bid (probably wouldn't have done anyway).

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

> "pretty certain it's a mandolin"


Not much certainty there... there's MAS, and there's _really_-irrational-MAS. 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## KristinEliza

> Seller says he doesn't have time to measure the overall length of the board-less instrument before the auction ends,


I guess that means the seller shouldn't expect any potential buyer to have the time to bid on it   :Disbelief:

----------


## Martin Jonas

To be fair on the seller, he said it's because he's at work and the mandolin (if that's what it is) is at home with the auction due to end before he comes home.

I do agree however that the seller can't expect many bids as long as prospective buyers can't be sure if they're buying a mandolin or a mandola.  Still looks too big to me on the photos to be a mandolin.

Martin

----------


## Marc Woodward

De Meglio?! When did De Meglio cease production and is this a late model? I've not seen one like this before.....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mandoline-Megl...item3365c21f37

----------


## Jim Garber

> De Meglio?! When did De Meglio cease production and is this a late model? I've not seen one like this before.....
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mandoline-Megl...item3365c21f37


That is one odd mandolin and an odd-looking one. The only Demeglio characteristics are the headstock and the tensioner. I wonder if it actually has a Demeglio label or is it just DeMeglio style. There is also a possibility that is was re-topped with a new fretboard.

----------


## vkioulaphides

This is actually by a later luthier, Franken de Meglio Stein.  :Wink: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

This could be a nice modest Embergher A.

Horrible photos, but maybe seller can provide better ones. He says free shipping worldwide. NFI on my part.

Actually i was just looking at the lower photos... he has much better detailed ones up above.

----------


## Ed Goist

> This could be a nice modest Embergher A.
> 
> Horrible photos, but maybe seller can provide better ones. He says free shipping worldwide. NFI on my part.


Wow Jim, even in the bad photos one can tell that is an exceptionally well made instrument.
The grain lines in the soundboard (all these bowlbacks have Spruce tops, correct?) are magnificent! I guessing it's Carpathian Spruce (based solely on that being available in Deutschland).
What about my Brandt? Any idea on the spruce type for the top, and the maple type for the neck & violin peghead? I believe the bowl staves are all Brazilian Rosewood (?).

----------


## Jim Garber

I am no wood expert, tho I am sure that your Brandt is BRW. I don't even know of any pre war instruments that used Indian or other rosewoods. I have a feeling that the spruce would be relatively local. it would cost more to ship in form somewhere else.

----------


## Jim Garber

That typa A is a pretty early one. My type 3 is 1904 and is signed by Luigi himself. it is likely that the shop was pretty small and the master certainly had some input into that mandolin.

----------


## Martin Jonas

That's a pretty good price on the Embergher, I'd say, for a Buy-It-Now.  About the same that I paid for my 1915 Tipo A, and I thought I got a good deal.  The early Tipo A examples I've seen (including mine) have very good spruce tops, whereas some of the 1920s ones used much cheaper wood, with irregular wide grain.  It's an ongoing argument whether that's actually relevant for the tone, but it's certainly the case that tight-grained spruce is (and was then) more expensive, so I would expect that it reflected a generally higher ambition for these student models.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

I thought the same thing, Martin, esp if it needs very little in the way of luthier assistance. Anybody looking for such a thing?

----------


## Ed Goist

I spent some time reading up on Embergher mandolins today.
Please forgive my error above, they were made in Italy, and not Germany.
Sorry, the name threw me.

----------


## vkioulaphides

No problem, Ed. Luigi's ancestry _does_ lead back to Austria, I believe. 

In any case, as due penance for your grave sin and error  :Wink:  you must now acquire an Embergher!

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Ed Goist

Hi Victor;

My new vintage Brandt is on its way to my luthier for adjustment and set-up, so at least I am now in the Club!

BTW, while poking around on the internet today for information about bowlbacks (there is unfortunately very little out there!), I did come across the website for Dieter Egerland & Tobias Kaul.

Lots of wonderful stuff on this page to kick-start *BBAS* (Blowback acquisition syndrome). 

This one is probably my favorite...Quite drool-worthy!:

----------


## Richard Walz

These instruments look like they are built on the 'heavy' side but it's great that they offer a range of instruments for children that are probably quite good and well adjusted. I hope I can try one of their Calace models some day.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Indeed, in my (admittedly rare) fantasies of acquiring a New German School instrument, I have thought of these...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

I vowed "no more!!" but like potato chips... This was too much to pass up esp since there are so few by this maker. According to reliable sources the only instruments by Philip Interdonati that have been discovered have been a couple of amazing guitars and two violins that are owned by descendants. This is (so far) the only mandolin done in his inimitable style that exists. 

I believe that the fretboard is not original -- it should have been thinner and extended similar to that on ones made in Napoli. neck construction is more similar to Italian makers of the period rather than American. i will post some more pictures later. these are from the dealer.

Ornamentation is a little over the top for me, however I am hoping that tonally it will be unique. The two guitars that exist supposedly sound and play wonderfully.

----------


## Ed Goist

Jim:
What an instrument!
I often think simpler/more plain is better, but that peghead is magnificent!
And what about the marbling on the back of the neck!! *Gorgeous.*
Congratulations - Let us know how she sounds.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Congrats, Jim! Enjoy! A pretty thing...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Marc Woodward

Wow, Jim that's an impressive piece of eye candy! I've not come across this maker at all but it's very pretty..... Hope it sounds as good as it looks!

Marc

----------


## Jim Garber

Marc: I don't think you will come across this maker... AFAIK this is (so far) the only mandolin, assuming it is authentic. Of course, we ask ... why would anyone put a fake Philip Interdonati label into an instrument if no one heard of him anyway. Beats me...

I will put up few more pics this evening.

----------


## Jim Garber

I posted a few more pictures in the Post-a-Picture-of-Your-Bowlback-(or-any-others) thread.

----------


## michaelpthompson

It's not only gorgeous, but in marvelous condition, from appearances.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is omne of the world's most valuable Puglisi Reale mandolins. I suppose the story, well-told, might be worth some of that $6,000 asking price.

----------


## brunello97

> Here is omne of the world's most valuable Puglisi Reale mandolins. I suppose the story, well-told, might be worth some of that $6,000 asking price.


It is in remarkable shape for all that traveling. Nice compensated bone-y saddle, too. You'd think those ten-year old strings would qualify for some kind of a discount, though.  I wonder if two or three times round the ebay corral will make the seller want to see if that $1600 offer is still on the table.

Mick

----------


## K. WONG

I wonder who did the appraisal for him.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> I suppose the story, well-told, might be worth some of that $6,000 asking price.


If only I could get, oh... six CENTS for each of _my_ stories! "If I Were a Rich Man" comes to mind...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

Since there is a 'make offer' option I thought to put forward a somewhat reduced price but then saw that shipping costs were an additional $150.  A guess putting these kinds of ads on ebay only cost a couple bucks in fees, so it may not be much more of a risk than buying a lottery ticket. Probably less of a chance of winning, however.

Seems like the mando-saga needs to be set to music. Victor......? First opening with an overture (of course) then a sequence of arrangements, first from its native Napoli, then to its German importer, back and forth across the Polish plains to the shetel (sic). Sounds of the Ukraine, of Klezmer invade the music. Now on to the cool sounds of the north, Scandinavia! blending into a habanera as the xylophones of Central America blend with the fox-trots, beguines and ballo-non-troppo-liscio of the 'State Dinner'.  Finally to the Lower East Side and the swirling cauldron of the Jazz Age. Then back to the roots, a simple elegant Neapolitan serenata in closing.  The libretto: voice over, song lyrics, etc. fleshes out the tale.  The Red Violin, Latcho Drom, etc. pale in comparison. Maybe a collective MC composition?  With the proceeds (and another 5998$) we might be able to afford to rescue the Puglisi.

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

> With the proceeds (and another 5998$) we might be able to afford to rescue the Puglisi.


That's just about how it usually works with me, Mick. All my fame, plus $2.50, never fails to get me on a subway— or a _bus_, even!

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

Something I haven't seen before offered on the ebay from what appears to be a catalog (Sherman Clay) of mandolin encoutrements ca. 1914: bridges, tuners, tailpieces, cases. The picks and tailpieces make a nice page. Turn o' century StewMac?  Also a couple of L+H mandolas. Check it out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mandolin-Furnish...#ht_2201wt_888

Mick

----------


## Ed Goist

I just purchased a tailpiece very much like #373 for $17. 
$2.50 then, $17 now...
Wow, adjusting for the standard inflation one would expect over ~100 years, today's prices are incredibly reasonable!
Oh, and those picks/plectrums were a comparative fortune back then!

----------


## Ed Goist

While surfing the web recently for information about European luthiers, I came across the website of Urs Langenbacher. (I posted a pic of his immaculate workshop in the builder's forum). Anyhow, I really like the looks of his 'Concert mandolin'. Here are specs and pics from his site:

Concert mandolin, my personal model
* with top made of spruce
* bowl has 13 ribs made of East Indian rosewood filets flamed maple
(alternative: flamed maple or aningré/rosewood or alternating ribs rosewood/flamed maple)
* carbonfiber reinforced neck made of cedro or khaya
* with ebony fingerboard with 24 frets
* all decoration done by hand
* finish: french polish
* with a tuning machine by Schaller or Rubner
* string length 33cm

 

 



I bet this mandolin is striking in person.

Has anyone played or heard one of Langenbacher's mandolins?

Oh, just found his price sheet and did the Euro/Dollar conversion...Is this baby worth $5,150?

----------


## Jim Garber

Ed, this is a classic modern style German mandolin, a very different animal from the earlier Italian style ones. Wider body, shallower bowl and primarily intended to be played with Thomastik strings and softer picks in order to have an almost classical guitar sound. Nothing wrong with that, just that soundwise it is very different -- and a matter of preference -- from the Italian style, vintage or modern.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Something I haven't seen before offered on the ebay from what appears to be a catalog (Sherman Clay) of mandolin encoutrements ca. 1914: bridges, tuners, tailpieces, cases. The picks and tailpieces make a nice page. Turn o' century StewMac?  Also a couple of L+H mandolas.


It looks like these were pages removed from a larger catalog, not a catalog in itself. I may have similar pages from another retailer with the same cuts.

----------


## Ed Goist

> Ed, this is a classic modern style German mandolin, a very different animal from the earlier Italian style ones. Wider body, shallower bowl and primarily intended to be played with Thomastik strings and softer picks in order to have an almost classical guitar sound. Nothing wrong with that, just that soundwise it is very different -- and a matter of preference -- from the Italian style, vintage or modern.


Jim, thanks very much for the information. I find this very interesting.
Now that you point out the differences, they are obvious and clear.
I could not find any video links on Herr Langenbacher's website. Could someone point me to some video examples of someone performing on a classic modern style German mandolin?
Based on your description of the sound of one of these, I would bet that a duet featuring both a German-style mandolin and a classic Italian-style mandolin would be quite sublime and appealing.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Ed: Here is Detlef Tewes, playing a modern German bowlback.



There are more videos at his homepage: Link

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Two other prominent players in the German style  and who play German style instruments are Caterina Lichtenberg and Gertrud Weyhofen (also known as Tröester).

----------


## Ed Goist

Martin and Jim, thanks very much for the video and information.
I have watched many the videos featuring Ms. Lichtenberg and Mike Marshall, and never noticed that her mandolin was different from the classic Italian bowlback (but then again I can sometimes be as observant as a telephone pole.)
She is one of my favorite players. What an incredible left hand she has...Technique to die for!
By the way, in this picture her mandolin look a lot like the Langenbacher! Anyone know what she plays?

----------


## Jim Garber

I know that Gertrud Weyhofen plays a mandolin by Klaus Knorr. Many of the upper level German instruments are very similar in construction.

----------


## Ed Goist

> I know that Gertrud Weyhofen plays a mandolin by Klaus Knorr. Many of the upper level German instruments are very similar in construction.


Oh my, I should probably stay away from these German luthier sites...I find these mandolins just stunning!

----------


## Ed Goist

> Ed: Here is Detlef Tewes, playing a modern German bowlback.
> ...snipped video...
> There are more videos at his homepage: Link
> Martin


How fantastic is the Queen of the Night Aria on mandolin?!
Man, this is a keeper!
Thanks again Martin.

----------


## K. WONG

I came across this mandolin in ebay, it is the best China made mandolin that I have even seen, I hope that I can have a chance to try it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Japanese-sty...item35b05d2efb

----------


## Jim Garber

> I came across this mandolin in ebay, it is the best China made mandolin that I have even seen, I hope that I can have a chance to try it.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Japanese-sty...item35b05d2efb


I hope you do get a chance to report back. Sometimes looks are deceiving tho. Some of the Taiwanese/Vietnamese instruments look all right but turn out to have inferior parts or unseasoned woods. Not to say that this is the case here...

----------


## Ed Goist

There is a nice description of the 'classic modern German bowlback mandolin' (along with some fine clips) on Brian Dean's website.

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Caterina's main German instrument is a Seiffert bowlback mandolin. He was the one that developed this kind of instrument. Most of the modern German bowlback builders are following this standard. 

By the way there is a very interesting interview with Caterina and Mike Marshal published in the last issue of Concertino.

Best,
Plamen

----------


## michaelpthompson

> I came across this mandolin in ebay, it is the best China made mandolin that I have even seen, I hope that I can have a chance to try it.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Japanese-sty...item35b05d2efb


It sure is pretty.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,
A 1927 Luigi Embergher Orchestra Model No. 3 has come up for Ebay auction.

Unfortunately with a 'Germanized' fingerboard but still a real bowlback of note, this one at Ebay Germany. 
Here is the direct link:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-Luigi-E...item4157dbf31f

Best, Alex.

----------


## SHORTY

Martin, thanks for the video. That mandolin has very nice tone. Do you know the German maker? What would be the finest bowlback for tone qualities made today? I know tone quality is subjective but just thought I would stir the pot a little.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Unfortunately with a 'Germanized' fingerboard but still a real bowlback of note, this one at Ebay Germany.


Germanized? I can see that it was lopped off... is it also flattened? The original tailpiece could be missing. I would be concerned a little with the neck joint repair. Still, it is a style three -- my favorite.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Yes Jim,  'Germanized'...

----------


## Martin Jonas

That Embergher looks nice, but I wonder what the truncated extension will do to structural integrity.  On this model, the fretboard extension was originally connected to the soundboard on the far end of the soundhole, thus in effect acting as one of the braces of the soundboard, which has now been removed.  I know that my mother carried out the same (ill-advised) operation on a low-grade Embergher copy (of sorts) by Miroglio some years ago, which shortly afterwards developed a sunken and cracked top, having previously played just fine for several decades in her ownership.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

I wonder why anyone would do that to shorten the fretboard, esp when it does have some structural component.

----------


## vkioulaphides

As a New Yorker, I'm inclined to forgive all sorts of funky body-piercing; no Embergher-mutilation, though.  :Mad:  

Sad, really: an "improvement" that both leaves you with a smaller range, AND impairs the structural integrity of the instrument! As Einstein said, "The difference between genius and stupidity is that stupidity has *limits*."  :Frown: 

Poor thing...

Regards to all,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

An interesting, ornate Ermelinda Silvestri mandolin with interesting carved head.

2 questions on this: I wonder who is the guy on the headstock and whether Ermelinda was a woman?

----------


## Tavy

> An interesting, ornate Ermelinda Silvestri mandolin with interesting carved head.
> 
> 2 questions on this: I wonder who is the guy on the headstock and whether Ermelinda was a woman?


Holy smoke, I wish the Silvestri I had was half as nice as that one!  After looking it up, Ermelinda is definitely a womans name... must be pretty unusual for that time for a woman to be leading a luthier shop?

----------


## vkioulaphides

> As Einstein said, "The difference between genius and stupidity is that stupidity has *limits*."


I correct myself, having misquoted the good Professor diametrically: it is _genius_, according to AE, that has limits; _stupidity_, au contraire, knows none such.

---

Ermelinda certainly sounds like a woman's name. I don't know whether I am tempting fate but, IMHO, the instrument may not be all that entirely a basket-case, as the seller humbly believes. In other words, I've seen worse, MUCH worse...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## michaelpthompson

Wow, that's beautiful. Missing a lot of the pearl binding and some of the fretboard areas, but the bowl looks in great shape. Probably a lucky thing for me the auction was already ended when I saw it.  :Wink: 

The guy on the headstock looks like one of those Old Man of the Sea type people, a sailor or fisherman or something.

----------


## KristinEliza

The headstock just looks heavy...I wonder how heavy it is.

And that's even too much bling for me...which says a lot...since I'm a girl...and blonde...(oooo...shiney!)

Neat piece though!

----------


## brunello97

Here is a link to a site (new to me) called Italian Fetish Guitars (a curious subgenre, if ever.)  There are some interesting examples of Silvestri's guitar work. Some vague discussion of the evolution of the Silvestri label without any clear reference to Ermelinda. The site includes as well a photo of the elusive Carmelo Catania.

http://www.fetishguitars.com/index/sicilia.html

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Mick, I always love that Fetish site.  Great stuff and just about the only place there is info on those oddball Sicilian makers.

----------


## Margriet

> I wonder why anyone would do that to shorten the fretboard, esp when it does have some structural component.


Jim, I have seen this more often - unfortunately. Once a good quality Suzuki mandolin: not the whole fingerboard was cut off, but the last frets were deleted. On that place someone filed the fretboard to be plain on that place. It was an instrument played in German style as well.

Maybe for some people the longer fingerboard is embarrassing, because they touch it with the plectrum.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> Maybe for some people the longer fingerboard is embarrassing, because they touch it with the plectrum.


 :Laughing:  Yes, maybe that is the case. Well... in that case, I think we should also cut the corners from violins, violas, cellos, etc. because some people hit them with the _bow_.  :Laughing: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Margriet

> Yes, maybe that is the case. Well... in that case, I think we should also cut the corners from violins, violas, cellos, etc. because some people hit them with the _bow_. 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Victor



Yes! And let we get rid off that nasty strings: they hurt you !

----------


## Margriet

Anyway, here is another Embergher at eBay, an early one, see scratchplate and date.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ht_3880wt_1139

----------


## Ed Goist

> Anyway, here is another Embergher at eBay, an early one, see scratchplate and date.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ht_3880wt_1139


Man, she's a beauty!

----------


## Jim Garber

I do recall this Pettine model Vega that also had the extension cut off. I think you are correct that people don't like hitting that part of the fretboard. Actually there are threads in the non-classical sections of these forums that people talk about the "florida" extension of the F5 model and how they don't need  the notes up there.

----------


## billkilpatrick

my e-amico pierangelo with a bowlback he made from "wood resin":

----------


## Ed Goist

Dieter Hopf soloist neapolitan on ebay. 
Looks to be in great shape. 
I believe the seller has dropped the price after no bids earlier.
$800 _'buy it now'_ seems very reasonable, no? Comments? (NFI)

----------


## Jim Garber

A couple of Vinaccias in the upcoming Christies auction in New York. Not sure about the date on the Pasquale. Anyone have reference on when PV worked? It looks like it should be about 60 years later. Both look like they need considerable restoration work.

Ascribed to Gaetano Vinaccia

Ascribed to Pasquale Vinaccia

----------


## brunello97

Jim, the Pasquale V mandolins I have in my files are dated in the 1880s. That is not from labels but from information that I recorded when collecting the images, so it may be suspect. To me the particular tuners (and general design) of the Christie's mandolin seem considerably later than 1840s, but I am certainly no expert. Graham's thread on the 'history of mechanical tuners' does suggest that they were available at that time. If this mandolin was truly from that period it would indeed be a 'missing link.'

Mick

----------


## etbarbaric

Labels can be confusing.  For instance, I believe it is common to find Pasquale Vinaccia & Figli labels dated from well after Pasquale's death.  The Figli continues under the famous name, eh?  At least one of these was presumably sold by Christie's in 2009... And some notes on their page make me think they actually own it (as if they bought it themselves).

The labels, dates, and attributions notwithstanding, both of these instruments are very interesting to me.  They represent two sides of the transitional puzzle and instruments from this period are rarely seen. One is clearly more like an 18th century instrument with friction pegs and a fingerboard that extends over the top.  The other has made the leap toward the more modern instrument with canted peghead, machine pegs etc.

----------


## Schlegel

I'm not sure I buy 1840 either, but on overall looks, not presence of tuners; mechanical tuners mounting on the side were already around for guitars in 1840, so they could have been made for a mandolin.

----------


## Margriet

> Labels can be confusing.  For instance, I believe it is common to find Pasquale Vinaccia & Figli labels dated from well after Pasquale's death.  The Figli continues under the famous name, eh?  At least one of these was presumably sold by Christie's in 2009... And some notes on their page make me think they actually own it (as if they bought it themselves).
> 
> The labels, dates, and attributions notwithstanding, both of these instruments are very interesting to me.  They represent two sides of the transitional puzzle and instruments from this period are rarely seen. One is clearly more like an 18th century instrument with friction pegs and a fingerboard that extends over the top.  The other has made the leap toward the more modern instrument with canted peghead, machine pegs etc.



Interesting !

the advertisement says that the "Pasquale" has a label with "Gaetano". Confusing. Who is it, that described it to Pasquale?

----------


## Graham McDonald

Christies sold this mandolin a couple of years ago with the same claim of age. The 1840 date is possible, as Sparks credits Pasquale Vinaccia (1806-c85) with creating the modern mandolin around 1835, and using mechanical tuners then.It would be interesting to know where he got that information from. Does anybody have a contact for him?  

The instrument came originally from a private German collection which the University of California acquired in the 50s and then sold a bunch of them off through Christies in 09. It is the only instrument of that period I have found an image of, which makes it interesting, especially as mandolin were still being sold 10-20 years layer with wooden pegs. And what did the few mandolin players do for strings?

musing on a Sunday morning..

graham

----------


## brunello97

Graham, you might try this thread viz contacting Paul Sparks:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...Sparks-contact

Sho'nuff the facebook rumor is true:

http://www.facebook.com/paulsparksyork

You didn't hear nuttin' from me.

Mick

----------


## trebleclef528

Interesting Albert and Muller mandola on Germany Ebay HERE
Interesting because THIS IS A STOLEN INSTRUMENT, *please do not bid on it*. I was browsing Ebay Germany when I spotted it and remembered that I had been give info of this instrument having been stolen along with several other high level instruments from a music school in Germany.

i have alerted the "rightful owners" and the German Police are... on the case :Wink: .

Best wishes
Ian

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Good job, Ian! Greetings to you and Barbara.

Alex.

----------


## Ed Goist

Hi All; a new Cafe member posted this over in the "Looking for Information About Mandolins" sub-forum.
Just making sure the regulars to this sub-forum saw the post.

----------


## Jim Garber

Excellent, Ian... you are the mandolin Interpol division.

Ed, we bowlheads do venture outside of these environs, so not to worry.

----------


## trebleclef528

> Excellent, Ian... you are the mandolin Interpol division.
> 
> Ed, we bowlheads do venture outside of these environs, so not to worry.


Thanks Jim, I think my former life as a fraud investigator with Her Majesty's Customs and Excise kicks in occasionally... I may the the Interpol division... but your still the best mando detective on the cafe  :Laughing: .
Best wishes
Ian

----------


## Jim Garber

Hey that does look just like me!!

----------


## Jim Garber

Have we commented on this 1924 Embergher Tipo B yet? boy, these prices are getting up there. For a student model, no less!

----------


## vkioulaphides

If the seller actually _gets_ that price, it will be remarkable; otherwise, I would hardly bat an eyelash at an _asking_ price. Let's see...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

I would think that that would be closer to the asking price of a pristine upper-end orchestra model (like a type 3).

----------


## vkioulaphides

I agree. And in light of so many "rare" no-name Neapolitans that are occasionally posted on eBay at a ~friendly~ asking opening price of a gazillion dollars, an Embergher IS an Embergher, after all. 

I must confess a minor, visceral antipathy towards that Model B, yet by no fault of _itself_. It just reminds me —anachronistically, I admit— of all those cheesy, generic German knock-offs, with twigs and leaves and cuckoo-birds and whatnots on the pick-guard.

I'm neither a buyer nor a seller. I'll sit back and watch...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## JeffD

> my e-amico pierangelo with a bowlback he made from "wood resin":


Looks like he made his hat from duck tape.

----------


## billkilpatrick

> Looks like he made his hat from duck tape.


i agree - looks ruff ... sounds ok

----------


## brunello97

> i agree - looks ruff ... sounds ok


Duck tape?  I would think it would look fluffy........ sound kind of quacky.

Mick

----------


## trebleclef528

Some fancy tuning pegs (Ebay France), I've never seen these before. :Disbelief:

----------


## vkioulaphides

Metal _friction_ pegs?  :Disbelief: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

Victor, you have better eyesight than I.  The pegs appear to have a 'Paris' stamped on them, but I can't tell what else. French tuners on a Neapolitan mandolin?  Très curieux! I have a few Luigi Vincentini mandolins images in my files, nice but all fairly MOR examples with basic geared tuners (certainement beaucoup de papillons.)  Are these geared inside, like a screwed shaft? What might contribute the 'friction'?

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

Qui le sait? They _seem_ like metal but, mechanically speaking, that obviously wouldn't contribute much friction— certainly not enough to sustain the tension of most _mandolin_ strings, IMHO. So I am more puzzled than helpful, I'm afraid. Très curieux, indeed...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

They could be friction pegs similar to ones on banjos. I have a feeling that thye are not each made of one piece. 

As far as origin, they could be after-market or this maker took a trip to Paris and liked them to use on this mandolin. I have a few other examples of this maker but none with these tuners.

----------


## brunello97

Here is a link to a world of banjo tuners.  As Jim suggests, some of the metal, friction tuners have a simple enough profile. 

http://www.musicmansteve.com/banjoparts/BanjoTuners.htm

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

Banjo/ukulele friction tuners essentially depend on washers top and bottom of the head being compressed by a screw through the button to adjust the tension. Works OK on a uke, not so well on the relatively low tension strings of a banjo and would be a right ####### on a mandolin. (vernacular Australian terminology used there, but the site vulgarity police robot has changed it. starts with a b, ends with a d. Americans are funny sometimes  :Smile:  ) Can't see if those pegs are adjustable in that way.

There were French mando builders are Mirecourt who used Italian type names for there brands (Ozelli?), but I don't know if that extended to actually claiming they were made in Naples.

cheers

graham

----------


## trebleclef528

Nice! just look at the back of this... apparently, my spies tell me the seller has had an offer of 3000 Euro's

----------


## Jim Garber

> Nice! just look at the back of this... apparently, my spies tell me the seller has had an offer of 3000 Euro's


Interesting... it seems that by the 1920s Vinaccia was making a wide range of models including some Roman style. Here are the pics that the seller posted. I also wonder what the patent ("brevettato")?.

----------


## trebleclef528

I recently researched a similar instrument (with the same inscriptions) on behalf of  Keith Harris, and got some good feedback from cafe members, you can see the "other mandolin" and the thread HERE

----------


## brunello97

I was able to purchase a very modest Vinaccia on the ebay last week and wanted to get some pictures of it up here for discussion. It was fairly inexpensive but in a bit of a state as you see: missing the strikeplate and bridge. And the neck sorely in need of some mando-chiropractory.  Recommendations on repair strategies can wait until the first round of questions.  

First off, it seems quite curious in its appointments and certainly a distant cousin to its illustrious name.  The Waverly tailpiece was a surprise but I found a Vinaccia mandolin on William Petit's site also sporting one. My guess is that it is a later addition but welcome others' feedback.

Next, the flamboyant strikeplate profile and tapering headstock also suggest a late model Vinaccia. But I don't have many of these in my files, so would appreciate any information on late model Vinaccia designs to help comp this. As you can see, the date was left off the label.

There are two small holes-under-the location of the bridge. These don't look as big as the Calace-style vent holes and are in a very curious position.  Has anyone seen those before?

Lastly, a close inspection of the headstock looks like something was broken off the end. The headstock ends in a nub that is unfinished, as if it were once a glue-joint. On the back of the headstock (probably invisible with my flash photo) are some small grooves just below this (presumed) joint, as if the carving of the-now lost-headpiece extended onto the headstock proper. I only have one Vinaccia in my files with a 'masthead' type carving and that is a far higher end model. I have a few with scrolls, but the entire headstock is done up violin-style in those cases.

Thanks in advance for any feedback or information! I never paid more than a passing historical interest to these as I never thought I would wind up with one.  Next step is figuring out what to do with it.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Mick... congrats on this new addition. it looks like it could be a nice mandolin when restored. I am not so sure how late this one is. The late ones -- 1920s and after -- I have have a different label. That headstock is esp unusual and  even with that really interesting backplate.

----------


## Schlegel

Probably a roman finial originally. I bet the square finial has broken off.  On lutes the square was often not of one piece with the rest of the peghead, but was glued on.

----------


## brunello97

> Probably a roman finial originally. I bet the square finial has broken off.  On lutes the square was often not of one piece with the rest of the peghead, but was glued on.


Thanks for the feedback. I had considered this, but only had images of Roman finials in slotted headstocks to compare.  Does anyone have examples of these square type finials with back mounted tuners?  

Jim, I looked closer at the label and those in my files and did find these used in the 1890s-190s range.  As you suggest, it does seem a bit older than I first considered.  Did Vinaccia use Waverly tailpieces, or do you think this is a replacement?  I need to firm up my knowledge of this family's work.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I think the Waverly was a replacement. Usually they would have a 4 post simple tailpiece with a wood armrest. You have a pretty nice Waverly there and could prob recoup some of your purchase price selling it.

Schlegel, not to nitpick but I thought a finial was like the one pictured here, tho I suppose finial just means endpiece (I think). Of course, Mick with his architectural background could expound on this. In any case, I have heard that style called crookneck.

I would think for some reason that there may have been some sort of carved head on this mandolin but i agree that it was made in that way -- glued on to the main headstock.

----------


## brunello97

Jim, that is what I would call a finial. Not sure what the proper name for the square 'bottle openers' on lutes and some Roman mandolins, but I hope there is one.  In any event, I think I got Schlegel's drift, though am looking to see if I can find one on a non-slotted headstock.  I have a couple examples of odd carved headstock pieces on Vinaccias but they are on fancier models.  This one came in a 'clownshoe' leather case so I can imagine whatever was on there popping off when someone tried to ram it into the case. "Ooops!"

I do have a few old Italian tailpieces I can swap out for this, and making a replacement scratchplate shouldn't be too hard.  The neck issue is a bigger dilemma.  Resetting is a an option but that is a huge undertaking and not something I would want to try on this. I took apart an old Lanfranco with the intention of learning to do just that and it is still in pieces on my work bench. Pretty complicated procedure.  This might be a bit easier with an un-veneered neck, but I don't think I am up to it yet on an Italian mandolin.  We keep going through the discussion of US based luthiers who might take on bowlback work and I don't pay enough attention.  Any recommendations for a neck-reset?

Replacing the fretboard with a tapered version is something I can handle but don't want to default to that too soon before exploring other options. I could probably use our rapid-prototyping 3D printer to come up with a cool replacement head.  Any images of one of the Vinaccia family out there to work from?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I was trying to think of what I saw with a carved head on a fretted instrument. It is this one. I have the promo photo and can scan detail.  The second image is from a magazine. This is Roy Smeck's octachorda (8 string hawaiian guitar). I know it is a slotted head but may give some idea of attachment.

----------


## brunello97

That is quite an arsenal Roy has. Whose head is that, Duke Kahanamoku? 

I have one image of a head on what I have listed as a Vinaccia, but I am not certain.  The headstock profile is completely different than mine (or Roy's.)  I have a feeling getting this mandolin playable is going to be easier than finding out what is missing from the headstock.  In any event, it has me learning more about the scope of Vinaccia. Knowledge which may or may not come in handy this coming fall when we will try our hand at making grappa.  :Wink:  

Mick

----------


## brunello97

I also have this Vinaccia mandola with carved head, this with the tapered headstock but also slotted tuners.  I think these have been posted in this thread, but seem helpful in this conversation as well.

Mick

----------


## Schlegel

Finial just means an ornamental piece on the end or top...turned, scroll, hook, or carved head.  I agree it may well have been a different shape. A scroll or carved head are both good possibilities. I believe by the time this was made Calaces with solid pegheads and scrolls had appeared, and late Vinnaccias seem to take a good deal of their style cues from Calace.

----------


## brunello97

> Finial just means an ornamental piece on the end or top...turned, scroll, hook, or carved head.  I agree it may well have been a different shape. A scroll or carved head are both good possibilities. I believe by the time this was made Calaces with solid pegheads and scrolls had appeared, and late Vinnaccias seem to take a good deal of their style cues from Calace.


This makes perfect sense, the 'fin' in 'finial' referring to 'the end' of something. It has been applied to particular components (I think of stair rail posts, for instance) but at its heart it is basically a generic term as you suggest.  Calaces do almost consistently have a tapered headstock (ending in some bulbous flair) as opposed to the typical older Vinaccias with either a straight or divergent peghead arrangement with the classic 'open book' that many US makers copied. This, of course, is a broad generalization.   What is curious about this mandolin is that it shows up in the Fratelli Gennaro e Achille labeled period. I have seen the tapered peghead in the later Fratelli fu Pasquale labled mandolins. Granted my Vinaccia examples on file are much more limited than the Calaces images I have collected.  I need to bolster my resources.

I often wish for the collective data bank for Italian mandolins (or at least the big names) that some good folks have been creating for the classic Gibson period.  Many of us have our little pools of images but a collective would be amazing to generate.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I have never seen any other mandolins by this maker: Zerega bowlback.

The thing is in sad shape with a warped top but is a higher end model.

----------


## Handy Hummingbird

Hi all,
A friend of mine was in a junk shop recently and came across an old bowl back mandolin; apparently the words Cesare Capogrossi and Armonici are legible, but not much else.  I'm not savvy regarding bowl backs, and can't find any info on the name either.  Thought I would try my luck here...Any info would be much appreciated!

----------


## vkioulaphides

"Armonici" is simply a generic adjective, (usually) attached to such a noun as "strumenti", meaning simply "musical instruments". Capogrossi is of course a surname; unfortunately, this is as far as I can take you with my scant knowledge.

Hopefully someone else will chime in...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Photos ? Also more info from the label. Does it say Napoli or Catania on it at all. That might indicate place of origin. I am not home right now so don't have access to my files but that maker name does not strike any chords in my brain.

----------


## Handy Hummingbird

Hey, thanks for the response; here are some pictures that have just been sent over to me, with a little more info on the label.  It's going quite cheap (£65), so I'm curious whether it's worth nabbing before someone else does?

----------


## Tavy

I didn't recognise the lable, but the instrument would have been one of the higher end models from that maker judging by the fluted back and fingerboard extension.  So I'd say yes it's worth a punt at the price they're asking.  Bridge doesn't look original, and you'll need to check the neck is straight and that there are no structural defects etc...

HTH, John.

----------


## Jim Garber

Tell your friend to snap it up. I assume that this is in the UK?

I don't know the maker but it looks like a decent quality mid- to higher-level mandolin in a Roman style. The neck looks triangular in profile -- at least from what i can see. My guess it was not made in Napoli but Roma or somewhere further north. I wish we could get more info on the label but I imagine that it is a pretty small, possibly one-person shop by the handwritten label and possibly from the 1890s or the 1st decade of the 20th century.

I just saw John's post. It is hard to tell from the photo but i am not so sure that the bridge is not original -- I think i can almost see it deeper on the bass side which would be appropriate to a Roman style mandolin.

----------


## brunello97

Very worth nabbing, Hummingbird. That would be a steal at that price. It looks like a high quality mandolin and the scalloped maple bowl indicates that someone invested some serious time in its making.  Porta Cavalleggeri is in Roma, of course, as if the style of the mandolin didn't give away its origin enough.  Get it quick...... Or let me know and I'll send you the $$ for it..... :Smile: 

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

You guys are scaring me...  :Laughing: 

Cheers to you both, anyway, zombie-cults and all.

Victor

----------


## Tavy

Just up on eBay UK: a nice Martin Bowlback.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Hummingbird.  Get it -- if you (or your friend) don't like it, send it to me and I'll send you the 65 Pounds for it.

Martin

----------


## Handy Hummingbird

Thanks for the feedback guys; I've asked my friend to pick it up tomorrow if it's still there...fingers crossed.  Will send some more pics and info when I can!  
Cheers,
Hum

----------


## Jason Stein

I saw this 1927 Embergher Orchestra #3 for sale and there is a YouTube video of it being played.  It can be hard to judge the quality of a mandolin on YouTube because of the recording and playback conditions, and each player's style of playing, but I wonder if others who have heard or played vintage Emberghers would comment on the tone of this particular mandolin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAmGJ...layer_embedded

Thank you,

Jason

----------


## Richard Walz

Impossible from this Youtube presentation...most likely better than what you hear (recording and digitalization is really quite poor).

----------


## Jim Garber

This is a dealer in Roma, Marco Onorati whose wife is a classical mandolinist Sonia Maurer and who prob is playing that style 3. Someone should tell him that the video files do not do justice to the instruments. You can see his site here.

He will quote you a price and I am sure it is prob around $4000 or more.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Oh, dear... I am sure the _décolletage_ was not meant to thus inadvertently steal the show.  :Redface: 

If someone knows Marco —as in _"well"_, as in _"personally"_— he/she should advise him on several counts. 

On topic, then: yes, I am sure the instrument sounds MUCH better than in the clip. But it won't go for a song...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jason Stein

Thank you for the replies.  I was quoted 3600 Euros ($5152) for the mandolin plus another 250 Euros ($357) for a reproduction tailpiece, as the original is missing.  I did ask him to post another video - he has several videos on his website of a gentleman playing on a couch that seem to be of better sound quality and I suggested he re-record a sample under those conditions.  It has had the central rib re-glued and some work on the fingerboard.

I was also looking at a 1927 Embergher Model 2 offered by Alfred Woll for 2900 Euros ($4150):

http://www.woll-mandolinen.de/E_vers...tartseite.html

go to "originals" then "vintage instruments"

-- Jason

----------


## Schlegel

> Oh, dear... I am sure the _décolletage_ was not meant to thus inadvertently steal the show. 
> 
> If someone knows Marco —as in _"well"_, as in _"personally"_— he/she should advise him on several counts. 
> 
> 
> On topic, then: yes, I am sure the instrument sounds MUCH better than in the clip. But it won't go for a song...
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Victor



True, the mandolin is at a bit of a disadvantage... I have often lamented that one needs quite good recording equipment to properly capture the sound of even a great mandolin, while guitars fall into the midrange for which even cheap equipment gets optimized.

----------


## Richard Walz

I have at home (on loan) an original 20's period Embergher (5 bis in mint condition) and two copies: one by dan larson, the other by lorenzo lippi. The original is very fine indeed but, to tell you the truth, both the larson and the lippi are on the same level and can only improve with time. worth considering either of these 2 makers.

----------


## Jason Stein

Here is the new video for the 1927 Embergher Orchestra 3.  Apparently it was strung with Thomastiks but now the strings have been changed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6-8aT0dKgk

The Larson and Lippi mandolins are beautiful.  I am also impressed with the look of Brian Dean's and Hendrik van den Broekwork.

----------


## Jim Garber

That doesn't sound like a string change as much as a mic change or a mic position change. Thomastiks would not make it sound tinnier. I wonder what the new strings are. What is great that she plays pretty much exactly what she played before. It still sounds distorted but I would never buy any instrument solely on the basis of a recording.

----------


## Tavy

> Here is the new video for the 1927 Embergher Orchestra 3.  Apparently it was strung with Thomastiks but now the strings have been changed.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6-8aT0dKgk
> 
> The Larson and Lippi mandolins are beautiful.  I am also impressed with the look of Brian Dean's and Hendrik van den Broekwork.


That seller has some interesting videos: the mandocello and Calace OM are particularly impressive, likewise their playing ability.  Not so impressive is the recording quality!

----------


## Tavy

A ceccherini just came up on eBay UK.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Nice. On the other hand, I bought (and resold, at no gain) my ex Ceccherini for _half_ that amount. Hmm... "market's heating up", I guess.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Margriet

We are restoring a *Gennaro Rubino* Piccolo mandolin, 1899.



Here is photo of this tiny little gem, besides an Embergher Student A mandolin.



And here, in "the arms" of our mandoloncello.



I opened a thread at the section of "builders and repair". There you can see more photos and see something of the process of restoration.

----------


## Jim Garber

Fantastic, Margriet! You havean excellent collection of quality instruments.

----------


## Margriet

thanks, Jim ! 
But the aim is not to have a collection, but to have a good life for them, being played, loved and cared.

----------


## Jim Garber

Okay, then... you have a nice collection of loved instruments.  :Smile:

----------


## Tavy

Love the picture next to the 'cello looks crazy small, and fun  :Wink:

----------


## brunello97

I turned up another piccolo bowlback/quartino in my web browsing:

http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-Quartin...c#ht_500wt_817

Michele Ussano is the son of Luigi, who also was a builder of mandolins in Napoli.

This one appears to need considerably more repair than Margriet's.

Mick

----------


## SHORTY

Margriet,
           What will be done with the little piccolo when its finished?
 Shorty

----------


## SHORTY

Margriet,
              What will become of the piccalo when its finished?
    Shorty

----------


## Margriet

> I turned up another piccolo bowlback/quartino in my web browsing.
> This one appears to need considerably more repair than Margriet's.
> Mick


I am not quite sure, Mick. With ours, the gluing of the braces was quite a job as well. But the instrument is well made, like the Ussano appears to be. By this it will be worth the work. 
I like this, Calace-like :




> Margriet, What will be done with the little piccolo when its finished? What will become of the piccalo when its finished?
> Shorty


To be short: it will sing. :Smile:  :Mandosmiley: 

Margriet

----------


## Margriet

Sorry, the photo is VERY smaal. I am not handy with these things like up- and downloading. 
Maybe this is better.

Margriet

----------


## Margriet

[/URL]


> Maybe this is better.


No, it's worse.

BTW: Ussino measures 45 cm. Our Rubino (from the very top of the head) 43,5 cm.


At the same seller of the quartino of Mick. Eulry ?: http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-Antico-...1#ht_500wt_922

----------


## brunello97

[QUOTE=Margriet;929697]I am not quite sure, Mick. With ours, the gluing of the braces was quite a job as well..... [/ATTACH]

I'm sure it was, Margriet. I guess with the top completely broken away from the bowl on the Ussano, it will make fixing those braces a little easier..... :Wink: 

Here are some pictures of the mandolino antico that you link to (for the thread archive.) It is very pretty. It also has some of those details we have come to enjoy on later mandolins: the neck/bowl joint 'collar' and the neck/head joint that CF Martin also used for awhile on some of their bowlbacks. Maybe a candidate for your historic mandolin club?

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

If somebody is looking for a de Meglio clone, and is quick, there is a nice-looking Luigi Dorigo on Ebay UK at 60 GBP with three hours to go.  NFI, obviously, and not in the market myself.

Link

There's only one photo, so no idea of any hidden defects, and with it being a clone rather than a genuine labelled de Meglio, there is no knowing precisely how close or otherwise to the original it is.  Still, at the current price it should be an good choice for somebody looking for their first bowlback.

It even still has the tailpiece cover/sleeve protector.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

> If somebody is looking for a de Meglio clone, and is quick, there is a nice-looking Luigi Dorigo on Ebay UK at 60 GBP with three hours to go.  NFI, obviously, and not in the market myself.
> 
> Link


Went for 77 Pounds, which should be a good deal.  Anybody here got it?

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

Following up from Mick's and Margriet's conversation last week, here is another one of those French pre-steel string bowlbacks (Eulry?) on Ebay UK, currently at a whooping ten Pounds.  This one has been converted from friction pegs to geared tuners and appears to have been set up for steel strings, too, in which case it's a bit of a miracle that the top hasn't collapsed, as I think these were made for the old low-tension mixed stringing.

Link

Martin

----------


## trebleclef528

Very nice Lombardo on Ebay Italy (nice price too!)

----------


## brunello97

> Very nice Lombardo on Ebay Italy (nice price too!)


I don't know diddley about Lombard mandolins but this is a Carlo Albertini and a nice looking one at that, and with a beautiful case.

Does anyone know when the Albertini shop was in production? Gian Giacomo Mora looks like a fairly tony neighborhood these days, but No. 5 looks to be a new(er) building, by the setback, windows, etc.  Some Italian cities (and neighborhoods) have gone through wholesale street renumbering but to my experience they will keep the dual numbers in place if it was a "recent" change.  Like so many, Sig. Albertini's (physical) shop appears to be gone.

Mick

----------


## KristinEliza

What a beautiful case with that one!

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## trebleclef528

> Went for 77 Pounds, which should be a good deal.  Anybody here got it?
> 
> Martin


yes, i did, and what a disaster. i had asked the seller if the neck was straight and she said it was (told her how to check), but she said she didn't know anything about instruments.... very true, the neck is perfectly straight... and the strings are lying on the neck, the top is completely caved in Flat as if someone has sat on it. you can't actually see it in the picture.

As an experienced ebayer i could kick myself, i should have done what i usually do and ask for more pictures..... I will try to get my dosh back as its completely unplayable and would cost a lot of lolly to fix... I'll try and post a picture later... ah well, you win some, you loose some... i lost :Laughing:

----------


## Jim Garber

Welcome to the club, Ian. I have a closetful of such. Part of the tuition we pay for our deep knowledge, eh? I say, if you can;t get your money back, send it to some budding luthier -- the up and coming Dave Hynds of the next generation.

----------


## Graham McDonald

> yes, i did, and what a disaster. i had asked the seller if the neck was straight and she said it was (told her how to check), but she said she didn't know anything about instruments.... very true, the neck is perfectly straight... and the strings are lying on the neck, the top is completely caved in Flat as if someone has sat on it. you can't actually see it in the picture.


Its probably not a complete disaster. If the soundboard isn't actually broken, and it doesn't look like it in the pic, it is most likely that the braces have come loose or off completely. It will involved taking the fingerboard and soundboard off, and that isn't minor surgery, but it shouldn't be impossible to fix (he optimistically suggests from 10,000 miles away  :Smile:  )

cheers

graham

----------


## Martin Jonas

> yes, i did, and what a disaster. i had asked the seller if the neck was straight and she said it was (told her how to check), but she said she didn't know anything about instruments.... very true, the neck is perfectly straight... and the strings are lying on the neck, the top is completely caved in Flat as if someone has sat on it. you can't actually see it in the picture.


Oops -- apologies, Ian.  It did look good on the photo, but I guess that's why it's always a good idea to get a side-on view as well.

Martin

----------


## Bruce Clausen

This photo appears in a classified ad posted today.  Owner seeks info but believes it is a Fratelli de Falco.  It doesn't resemble other F. de F. instruments we've seen here.  Look familiar to anyone?

----------


## Margriet

I see this for long on eBay Italy. Same photo. Is against the guidelines of cafe and the classifieds.

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## brunello97

Could be, Bruce, but it doesn't look like other FdeF mandolins I have in my files (but that is only 3-4 examples.)  They all do have a pretty strongly graphic label. Given the consistent labeling, I would be slow to attribute a non-labeled mandolin to their shop without something more definitive to work from. 

I do like il pavone on the scratchplate.

Mick

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## Margriet

> I do like il pavone on the scratchplate.


I have a mandolin and a broken guitar, both with a peacock. The mandolin is a Puglisi and the guitar is a Rosario Cristaudo & Figli, Catania, so both from Sicily.

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## brunello97

That is beautiful, Margriet, thank you for posting.  Here is another Puglisi with a frontal view of the pauw, as y'all call them.  A little more pleasant than those nasty dragons  :Wink: 

Mick

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## trebleclef528

> Welcome to the club, Ian. I have a closetful of such. Part of the tuition we pay for our deep knowledge, eh? I say, if you can;t get your money back, send it to some budding luthier -- the up and coming Dave Hynds of the next generation.


 Great to be in yet another club... aaargh! I've emailed the seller with a picture of her mandolin and a picture of how a "normal" one should look... I awaite her reply, but I'm not holding my breath on a refund

----------


## brunello97

> Great to be in yet another club... aaargh! I've emailed the seller with a picture of her mandolin and a picture of how a "normal" one should look... I awaite her reply, but I'm not holding my breath on a refund


Going through the same thing right now myself, amigo.  Bought a bowlback on ebay which was probably an Italian made, US-import-and-label from the '10s-early '20s.  Very sharp looking on the ad.  Like yours, it sported a very sunken top on arrival.  The ad language was unintentionally deceptive, but I was guilty of a lack of true due diligence in the caveat emptorium.  The seller has agreed to a refund (including my return shipping costs.)  Hopefully, she follows through. My Decline-O-Meter could use a reset these days.....

Good luck with getting your issue sorted out.

Mick

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## Tavy

There's an instrument on eBay UK, apparently from the "great mandolin famine" period of the 1860's.  Weird looking thing, but interesting: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=170652068523

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## vkioulaphides

... as played, back then, by widows and orphans under a one-sided, canvas tent. I can't tell whether my reaction leans more towards "touching" or "painful"...

Cheers,

Victor

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## Jim Garber

Nice label on that little thing but otherwise...

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## Margriet

> ... as played, back then, by widows and orphans under a one-sided, canvas tent. I can't tell whether my reaction leans more towards "touching" or "painful"...


Yes, this is also a way to look at an instrument. To see where and by whom it is played, the place it had in cultural life.

In this it is a" bowlback of note"..... 

not to look with eyes of a magpie, no attractive glitter. 
It tells something of history.

Thanks, Victor.

----------


## brunello97

I have what appears to be a much 'newer' mandolin from Carlo Giuseppe Picino in my files.  Perhaps he was able to whether the storms and prosper.  The label appears to have an overlay from one of the English importing firms.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I tend to doubt that the instrument comes from 1860 -- I would think that the seller is merely guessing. Also I think that only the body was every touched by the Picino shop and that the rest esp the "neck" and "headstock" were the product of some insane reptile luthier. The scale looks short and the frets don't look like they were even calculated.

----------


## brunello97

Ah, the Mandolin Cafe, where "random hippie sanding" meets "insane reptile luthiery".  Jim, I love the deployment of  quotation marks around 'neck'.

Mick

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## michaelpthompson

> There's an instrument on eBay UK, apparently from the "great mandolin famine" period of the 1860's.  Weird looking thing, but interesting: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=170652068523


Does look interesting, especially the peghead, which does not appear to be integral to the neck. I'm not even sure what kind of tuners those are. This one will take lots of TLC if somebody wants to get it playable, looks like the staves are separating from the neck joint.

----------


## Tavy

Just on eBay UK: an overpriced and overdecorated fluted-rib bowl.

Whoever the actual maker was, the lable P. Cosentino always seems to come up on highly decorated instruments, there's another one in Bonhams catalogue with £600-800 estimate on it, so maybe the price isn't so crazy after all...

----------


## brunello97

John, am I the only one around here who really enjoys these ornate southern bowls? Well, maybe Plami as well. I prefer them to the over bling-ed Chicago (or even Martin) bowls. The peacock is amazing on this one. Here are a couple images from the sale for posterity here on the thread.

Mick

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## billkilpatrick

b'-LING!!

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## Martin Jonas

> John, am I the only one around here who really enjoys these ornate southern bowls?


Yes, I think, is the answer.  I find this one really quite vulgar, and rather crudely made.  I do like the fluted bowl, though, and wonder (as we have in the past) whether the bowls were actually made at different shops for the "commodity" mandolins.

Martin

----------


## Tavy

> John, am I the only one around here who really enjoys these ornate southern bowls?


Well..... it's a sort of guilty pleasure really, not something I admit too everday or in polite company  :Smile: 

I can't help feeling though that if you took the _idea_ of these instruments and just toned it down a little, you could produce something really pretty spectacular, that was actually _almost_ tasteful as well.  I have an idea that maybe one day I'll put together an all MOP fingerboard for one of my builds - if I can ever summon up the courage (and the cash)!

----------


## brunello97

Well, Martin, I do know where you stand viz these types of extravagances  :Wink:  Admittedly, I don't put my money where my mouth is. (My daily players are about as bland as they come: 50s Martin A and a very plain '10s Gibson A.)

I appreciate these southerners attempts at design of an overall composition given the rather challenging shapes and lines involved with the mandolin. A complicated task of lines, volumes and surfaces. I acknowledge that doing something simple and elegant is equally as challenging-if not more. (Martin mandolins and guitars or Shaker furniture for example.) 

But I'll leave that for the northerners and continue looking for some design risks along with the (more than occasional) mis-fires. There are enough drab Vinaccia/Embergher originals and knock offs to suit my eye.  As strange as it is, I am much more delighted to see the 'pretzel' soundhole/fretboard extension rather than another silly dragon/trompe l'oeil parchment design pretension.  

I agree that detailing all that MOP is an idea perhaps best left on paper. It can't be an  easy material to work with and make clean joints between pieces in different planes. The Brandt mandolins out of Chicago have some of the cleanest work in Tammy Faye-level MOP bling that I have seen. It does make me wonder as well if the 'rough construction' and bling weren't contracted out to different shops.  I have thought that about some of the many Larson-attributed mandolins (that they may have been hired out to do some of the ornamental detailing on some other's construction as well as their own.)

Keep them coming when you find them, John. You have at least an audience of 1.

Mick

----------


## Tavy

> Keep them coming when you find them, John. You have at least an audience of 1.


Well especially for you.... quite the most decorated Stridente I've seen (from www.music-treasures.com):

----------


## Tavy

An equally extravagant Callace:

----------


## Tavy

A double top Ceccherini:

----------


## Tavy

Or maybe this would be more to your taste?  :Wink:

----------


## Tavy

And finally... especially for Martin... a plain Vinaccia from '33:

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## billkilpatrick

ott ... def'o'

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## Martin Jonas

While the other examples posted by Tavy are not really to my taste either (except the Vinaccia), they do at least show immaculate workmanship.  The Ceccherini in particular has a bit too much inlay, but what is there is simply fantastic -- judging from my own Ceccherini (whihc has a simpler vine inlay with cleaner lines), their inlays are really wonderfully detailed.  The Cosentino in contrast just looks crude.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

I am in Martin's camp. I prefer the understated tho I do own a higher end turn of the last century C.F. Martin style 6 mandolin at the beginning of this thread (way back in the stone age). There was an article in the current issue of Acoustic Guitar Magazine about American inlay artists. Altho it is incredible work I find a lot of it way over the top. The worst I have ever seen was (I think) C.F. Martin's one millionth guitar which had incredible amounts of pearl all over the place. Incredible work but it made me want to gag. Sort of like the guy who wants to be the most tatooed in the world. Too much. Apologies to the artist!!

----------


## Bruce Clausen

You'd want to be wearing the right clothes to play some of these instruments.  Remember that gold suit Elvis had?  :Wink:

----------


## billkilpatrick

ouds are pretty bling-y ... reflecting a taste i don't "got" ...

----------


## Margriet

> Well especially for you.... quite the most decorated Stridente I've seen (from www.music-treasures.com):


Actually we'll soon start restoring such a mandolin. Thus I have seen ànd touched it. Though I am more looking for sound quality than ornamentation, and no the bling-type, I agree with Martin, that it is nicely made, with craftmanship. Once I had it in my hands and in my surrounding, I began to love it more. And I see it is worth the (lots of) work.
I saw the (same?) photos that Tavy posted on another website: elderly instruments, price:  5000.

Here are some photos of our restoration object. 

For me there is no matter of a "camp", we just can enjoy.

Margriet

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, John, I have seen that Stridente before, clearly a much higher level than even the fancier Stridentes I have seen, which stand out from their more modest work.  Out of all the ones you posted, I prefer the Calace. Don't get me wrong, I agree with Martin that the craftwork on the Cosentino is wanting. I do appreciate the Sicilians' intentions on working with the basic lines, forms and surfaces of the mandolin.  

I don't very much like silly design efforts (such as the arachnid you posted) for their own sake. There are plenty of them around, as well as new versions coming out of SE Asia. There is a mandolin oddities thread, much of which I find grotesque, if not amusing. Remember the Hanoi bat? Yikes.  I very much enjoy the line work of the Art Nouveau/Liberty/Jugendstil period.  Calace was one of the prominent names that really embraced it and tried some things out.  Cristofaro as well, I suppose. The Sicilians seemed to copy everyone and with more gusto, if sometimes less craftsmanship.  They were trying things out and sometimes it hit and often they missed.  I appreciate the design effort and their willingness to push the design envelope. Many of the mainland firms were understandably conservative; they had the reputations.

I find the Ceccherini you posted rather dull in its design: gilding the lily so to speak. (No doubt it is an exceptional sounding mandolin, but that isn't my consideration here.)  Superbly crafted but the added bling changes nothing in terms of the basic design elements. I'd prefer it in a much simpler state. I do like the veneer on the neck, though. Same goes for the Stridente.  Very nice, but boring to my eye. The Vinaccia is just plain awkward to my sensibility, a poorly coordinated set of elements.  All my architect's blah blah doesn't excuse over-exuberance or clumsiness in intention. Encrusting a mandolin (or lute) with diamonds or pearls doesn't get me necessarily interested.  Though the back of Bill's lute is simply stunning-I wish the picture was a bit higher resolution. 

To keep my iconoclasm complete, I enjoy the simpler, slot-headed Emberghers, which are very nicely integrated designs.  Some of the higher end ones just seem clumsy looking to me in their (non) integration of disparate design elements. It's not an either-or thing for me. My Martin A is sublime. They figured out the design of a clean, elegant great sounding mandolin and made the same thing for 50 years. I really admire that.

Mick

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## brunello97

Not to reopen una lattina delle verme, but this bowlback is noteworthy to me for the exuberant Dutch End (or whatever Margriet was calling it.) 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_1096wt_906

Not much about this instrument isn't exuberant, I guess, and it certainly crosses the Mendozza Line for me in terms of overall design.  I have some mandolins from GM in my files but nothing labeled Gennaro. I wonder if it is the same person.  I've asked the seller for a clearer shot of the label. Perhaps someone here has a better image?

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Hah! Mick... i think you need to start providing footnotes and translations for your posts. For instance, I had to look up:




> The Mendoza Line is an expression in baseball in the United States, deriving from the name of shortstop Mario Mendoza, whose lifetime batting average is taken to define the threshold of incompetent hitting.

----------


## billkilpatrick

rococo, mick

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## Jim Garber

Ah, yes... to continue the theme, a seriously over-the-top, MOP-encrusted, rococo JH Watson mandolin. On top of that, it is a 12 string! Never heard fo that maker but I am not sure which Chicago maker is to blame for manufacturing it.

Maybe it is an independent luthier... strange

----------


## brunello97

I saw this one as well, Jim, but couldn't dl the images with my eyes closed.  :Wink:  There must be a fortune of MOP to harvest from that for the repairman or luthier. I've never heard of Mr. Watson either, and the proportions on this, particularly the bowl, are pretty odd. 

Still, I love the idea of 'presentation grade' mandolins. As if one would be symbolically 'presented' to a visiting ambassador, an esteemed dignitary, or as a dowry, or to the best debating team, whether they played the instrument or not.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

After looking at this for a little, my theory is this. originally this was some sort of factory mandolin much plainer in ornamentation an contracted for JH Watson, who my quick search could have been a jewelry store that also carried musical instruments back in that day. The  some mad creative "genius" got hold of it and converted it to a 12 string  -- look at the tuners which were cobbled together and the extension wood added to lengthen the headstock -- and also added all the glitz. The bowl seems way too plain to have been originally a presentation model and frankly the workmanship all around seems rather crude.

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Right, Jim, it looks like they added one hole below the original four on each side and one above, then moved the original heads down one step and added the new pairs above, adding just enough wood to make space.  I get the feeling the fingerboard was shortened and the nut moved down the neck at the same time.  Crude is the word.

----------


## Tavy

> Ah, yes... to continue the theme, a seriously over-the-top, MOP-encrusted, rococo JH Watson mandolin. On top of that, it is a 12 string! Never heard fo that maker but I am not sure which Chicago maker is to blame for manufacturing it.
> 
> Maybe it is an independent luthier... strange


OK that's too much even for me  :Wink: 

Got to be worth the starting price for that lifetimes supply of MOP though!

----------


## brunello97

Then there is the 'action'.

This mandolin kind of reminds me of an old joke my mother used to tell about two ladies in a restaurant in New York:

First lady: "The food here is just terrible."

Second lady: "Yes, and such small portions....."

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

To illustrate the work on the headstock:

----------


## Tavy

> Then there is the 'action'.
> 
> This mandolin kind of reminds me of an old joke my mother used to tell about two ladies in a restaurant in New York:
> 
> First lady: "The food here is just terrible."
> 
> Second lady: "Yes, and such small portions....."


LOL, OK come on someone must love this one?  I'm starting to feel bad that we're all slagging it off now  :Smile: 

BTW did you know that MOP is a natural product secreted by the mandolin beetle?  Apparently only after they get really old and battered.... some sort of defense mechanism I believe  :Wink:

----------


## Jim Garber

> Ah, yes... to continue the theme, a seriously over-the-top, MOP-encrusted, rococo JH Watson mandolin. On top of that, it is a 12 string! Never heard fo that maker but I am not sure which Chicago maker is to blame for manufacturing it.
> 
> Maybe it is an independent luthier... strange


Well, it was relisted here for a real auction. i would think it at least has $50 worth of pearl.  :Smile:

----------


## Tavy

A fluted back Raffaele Valente on eBay UK.

Hopefully someone more savvy than me will scrape the images and post them here  :Wink:

----------


## rctil40

Hi

What do you think of this Cecceherini - 10 strings? Is that normal? 

Ritchie

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tchlink:top:en

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## Jim Garber

Martin Jonas had one (might still). The stranger thing is that, looking at the nut, I think it is strung (low to high) per course: 2 strings, 2 strings, 3 strings, 3 strings, not, as you might imagine, 5 courses of 2 strings each.

----------


## Tavy

> What do you think of this Cecceherini - 10 strings? Is that normal?


Dang, I was hoping no one would notice that one  :Smile: 

Jim: all the ten string bowlbacks I've seen have this 2+2+3+3 configuration, it's sort of halfway to a mandriola I guess.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Jim/Tavy/Ritchie,

Yes indeed, I had one of these -- there are quite a few photos and descriptions in the bowlback picture thread, starting at post #354 (Link).  Mine had seen more playing time than this latest one, I think, with the sun-darkened top that these Italians get if not kept in the case at all time.  Still, it was a nice instrument and relatively easy to make playable.  I jigged the bridge configuration to change it to an 8-string, which was not difficult at all, and it worked fine that way.  Because it started life as a 10-string, it had a (slightly) wider fretboard than normal and also a sturdier neck.  Both of these are on the whole desirably in old bowlbacks.  Tone was fine, but in the end I considered that as I already had two other Ceccherinis, both in better condition, that I would release this one.

The reason I bought mine was that it was on a Buy-It-Now for GBP50, within easy driving distance from me, and at that price it was clearly a huge bargain so I snapped it up.  I sold it a few months later for GBP275, which I think was a realistic price, to a buyer in Naples, so it went home after a good century.  The buyer seemed happy with the deal, and sent me a fairly enthusiastic email when he received the instrument.  It was a good instrument with a lovely tone, although I didn't play it very extensively and it hadn't fully opened up yet when I sold it.  I made a couple of MP3s for the auction when I sold it, and I'm attaching one of them here.  My playing isn't very good on it (too slow for the piece and a bit halting -- I think my playing has improved in the four years since then), but it should give an idea of the tone anyway.

The Ebay one looks fine to me, although one can never entirely tell from photos.  String configuration on mine was 2+2+3+3 as well.

Martin

----------


## rctil40

Thanks for you help Martin. I might bid for this as a slightly wider fingerboard would be great - I struggle with the narrow one on my current bowlback

Ritchie

----------


## trebleclef528

This poor we section seems to have been neglected... nearly a month and no postings :Crying: ... so here's a nice top of the range Puglisi that i recently had on ebay (I'm not advertisng as it's long gone).... t'was a very nice mando.

----------


## Martin Jonas

If there's anybody out there with a de Meglio without scratchplate, here is a spare one.

Mind you, one can probably buy a completely trashed de Meglio or clone for that money and scavenge it for parts...

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Here is a typically exuberant design from Luigi Ruocco of Napoli. He of the elaborately carved headstocks and braided pretzel soundholes.  Not to everyone here's taste of course....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...t_17877wt_1138

What caught my eye was this asymmetrical Calace/Cristofaro inspired scratchplate done here as a morphing of the classic de Meglio style such as Martin has just posted, complete with shallow beveling of the edges. The applied headstock fiora is also 'of note'.  Any guesses on the bowl wood?  The grain does not look like rosewood to me.  Walnut?  This is in woeful condition, but the neck appears in reasonable shape, so a nice restoration seems possible.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Ooh... poor Luigi Ruocco! I wonder what war that one went thru. Neck looks like it may have been split at one time. Someone made some offer.

----------


## brunello97

> Ooh... poor Luigi Ruocco! I wonder what war that one went thru. Neck looks like it may have been split at one time. Someone made some offer.


Certainly through WWII, Jim, but I think the "War of the Musty Attic" was probably what did it in.  I imagine a dream conversation with you, Martin, Victor, Italo Calvino and I over dinner and we convince him to write a story about poor Luigi Ruocco.  Who knows where that would lead?  

24 Vico Campagnari:  http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=...00544,0.001136

If it arrived on my doorstep, I would fix it properly and play with distinction.  

Mick

----------


## KristinEliza

I'll have some before / after pics when I _finally_ get my mando back from the repair shop this Friday to help revive the thread!

It's a 'bowlback of note' to me!

----------


## Tavy

Here's a non-noteworthy one on eBay UK, acording to the sellers info the instrument was professionally strung up by a local music shop.... hmmmm, anyone spot the deliberate mistake?  :Disbelief:

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here's a non-noteworthy one on eBay UK, acording to the sellers info the instrument was professionally strung up by a local music shop.... hmmmm, anyone spot the deliberate mistake?


Hmmm... I can't imagine that it has anything to do with bridge position.

----------


## Rodney Riley

Was strung up for a Lefty. Low strings should be on other side.

OK OK OK... bad joke. Everyone knows it's strung up right. Did see the lighter area where the bridge has been for years. Why wasn't it put back in that position? Intonation off then or now?

----------


## KristinEliza

Oh, I bet the intonation is perfect now...

----------


## Jim Garber

1941 Embergher 5bis at William Petit. I believe this would have been made by Domenico Cerrone at that point. There looks like there is a shim under the bridge which might indicate that this needs some work to make it playable.

----------


## michaelpthompson

Ooooh, strung up by "professionals" eh? I'm sure they did a much better job than us amateurs... :-)

So, obviously these "professionals" positioned the bridge really badly, but what makes you think it was deliberate?

----------


## brunello97

That is a pity, Jim, looks like maybe a bit of a sunken top?  

I hadn't been to the Petit site in awhile and to my delight was a Cristofaro for sale, the same model as mine which I am repairing/restoring.  Really great to have a clean image of how it once looked.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Here are some truly noted bowlbacks, Alison Stephens' mandolins.

----------


## Jim Garber

As for the Petit 5bis... it is a shame but the top has significant warpage plus other issues. It will take a more than a small bit of restoration work.

----------


## trebleclef528

Me this THIS 1769 Vinaccia has been up a few times on ebay?

----------


## Jim Garber

Ian, you are quite correct. It is the same one pictured here.

----------


## etbarbaric

Yes, this one is a heavily-modified Mandolino Genovese that has been on the market for some time. In its original form, this was the mandolin type that Paganinni (and not many others) wrote for. I've seen a couple others over the years that bear similar labels... and at least one of those had been modified in a similar fashion, if memory serves.

Note that it was once a six-course instrument that has been cut down to be a four-course instrument.  It would have been tuned originally as an octave guitar. The peghead was originally much longer. It has been whacked off and is missing four pegs for two doubled courses. The neck has been carved down from the sides to be narrower for similar reasons.  The neck was once approximately as wide as the last metal fret. The six original hitch pins are still visible at the bottom of the instrument.

That the seller mentions none of this (except the hitch pins) is perhaps telling... 

Best,

Eric

----------


## Jim Garber

The proportions looks completely off. Thanks, Eric, for the explanation. This one looks a lot more together tho I am sure there are some issues for something that old.

Here also is the Music treasures one for comparison.

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi Jim,

Yes, the 1770 Joannes Vinaccia mandolin you linked to does seem to be a legitimate mid-period 18th-century Neapolitan mandolin.  I personally find it interesting that a couple of Mandolinos Genovese have shown up with Joannes Vinaccia labels. I don't think I've seen a labeled Joannes Vinaccia Mandolino Genovese that hasn't been messed with dramatically... so it is hard for me to say anything definite without speculating wildly. Volume-wise those instruments are statistical outliers that represent a different geographic region than that which we typically associate with the Vinaccia clan.  There is very little music left for them (Paganinni being the notable exception, and a method... and one or two others as I recall) which may be explained by their guitar-like tuning (Who needs music... its tuned like a guitar?)  

The Paganinni mandolin pieces are obviously playable on the Neapolitan tuning.... but it is immediately evident that they would work well on an octave guitar-like tuning.  Paganinni also wrote for the guitar, often in combination with the violin.  His guitar and violin pieces are perfectly charming.  Alas, it seems he was a much better technically as a violinist and his violin parts are typically more challenging than his guitar parts (boom-chuck-chuck, boom-chuck-chuck, etc.... :-))  I say this as a violinist who would appreciate some boom-chucks now and then!

Best,

Eric

----------


## vkioulaphides

True, although said double-topper is no longer mine. Nice to hear from you again, Bob. Hope all is well in the mandopigsty ;-)

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## etbarbaric

Here, just for fun, is a link to a lovely modern re-creation of a Mandolino Genovese by Federico Gabrielli.

http://www.mandolino.it/Genoese%20Ba...20mandolin.htm

This is (more or less) how that "Vinaccia" started life before it was carved down (carved up?) Note the extremely long peghead to support 12 friction pegs. Trapezoidal scratch plates are very common on these instruments... if somewhat incongruous to my own eye... 

I've always wanted one of these... but I have never been able to justify it for the scant repertoire.  Easier to justify for a guitarist, perhaps. Maybe in another life... 

Best,

Eric

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Eric, I had not been to Frederico's site before (or forgotten if I have.) Very nice work it seems. I like the fact that he restored Mazzini's guitar.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> True, although said double-topper is no longer mine. Nice to hear from you again, Bob. Hope all is well in the mandopigsty ;-)


I am confused... Victor, who are you responding to? I don't see any Bob's in the last two pages of this thread. And which double topper? Ceccherini?

----------


## Bruce Clausen

It's clearly a message to "Bob. Hope", reporting on conditions down here on Earth ("the mandopigsty").  The "double-topper" must be some sort of mystical code. :Wink:

----------


## trebleclef528

> I am confused... Victor, who are you responding to? I don't see any Bob's in the last two pages of this thread. And which double topper? Ceccherini?


Jim,
I think perhaps the double topper that Victor is referring to is HERE ? :Laughing:

----------


## vkioulaphides

This does happen on public forums on occasion. My response was meant to be posted elsewhere, yet it appeared here. Oh, well... Perhaps it was because I was posting from my Blackberry, in the midst of an absolutely hellish day at work. Who knows?  :Confused: 

Cheers, all the same.  :Smile: 

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

> 1941 Embergher 5bis at William Petit. I believe this would have been made by Domenico Cerrone at that point. There looks like there is a shim under the bridge which might indicate that this needs some work to make it playable.


Petit's Embergher is now on ebay.

----------


## etbarbaric

Wow... $10K to start...

----------


## Jim Garber

Yes, that is about what he told me = €8000.

----------


## brunello97

> Petit's Embergher is now on ebay.


Un grand prix.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Here is a sharply-and interestingly-detailed bowl labeled Acme (can't help but think about Wile E. Coyote here) and presumably made by Stewart and Bauer.  My guess/wish is that the neck carving (which looks pretty atrocious) is after-market.  A lot of MOP skillfully handled.  A bowlback of note.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACME-PROFESS...#ht_686wt_1173

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

While no salesman, surrogate or otherwise, I must give due mention to some of the truly lovely instruments that I saw on Jim Garber's booth at CMSA. I would not know whether any were sold, but certainly all deserve a good home.

I cannot speak of the fine looking (and probably fine _sounding_) carved top instruments; I must plead ignorance. Yet there were bowlbacks, too and WHAT bowlbacks! My all-time favorite was perhaps the finest kept, most immaculately restored de Meglio; this is an instrument that claims love at first sight: it looked, sounded, and felt like a dream come true. There was also a solid Embergher Model A, and a vintage Calace, both of which should make anyone happy for a lifetime (_and beyond_, considering how precious such heirlooms are to music-loving heirs...)

So, while Jim's business is none of _my_ business, I am happy to "sound the trumpet, beat the drum" for such truly WONDERFUL instruments as those I saw this past weekend. As, apparently, Jim is ready to part with them (for whatever reasons), I can think of many, many, many mandolinists who would be happy to have such beautiful, wonderful instruments in their own possession. You all know where to find him...  :Wink: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks, Victor, for the kind words. I had even more instruments to bring but wasn't sure who would be interested in my wares or how big the table was. I wanted to bring one of each of those very playable ones. Too bad my Vinaccia's are not in good shape.

There was some interest in bowlbacks at CMSA. I saw some nice ones including nicely ornamented Carl Fischer labelled one, an early Vinaccia style with violin pegs and a few of the mandolins discussed in these pages. it was great to see them in person.

----------


## MLT

I went to an Antiques & Collectibles Show (read:  Sale) over in Portland (OR) yesterday.  As I wandered up and down the rows and rows of estate jewelry, posters, vintage toys and clothes I came across this Washburn.  The seller is asking $895.  It appears to be sound structurally.  I thought I would post it here to see what others think based on the look (front) and the label.  

Any ideas if it is worth the asking price? Even close? and created about when?  Is it from the turn of last century? Later?

----------


## Jim Garber

We are still reeling and powerless from the storm Saturday here in NY so I have no access to my computer files. This is first Internet access (at work under generator power). This is an upperend Washburnif in good shape I suppose this is an okay price tho the pearl fretbd is a pain for any fretwork and it prob doesn't sound much better than less ornamented Washburns. I don;t have my Hubert book handy or could propb tell you the model but it is prob in the high 200s or 1125 (depending on year of mfg).

----------


## MLT

> We are still reeling and powerless from the storm Saturday here in NY so I have no access to my computer files. This is first Internet access (at work under generator power). This is an upperend Washburnif in good shape I suppose this is an okay price tho the pearl fretbd is a pain for any fretwork and it prob doesn't sound much better than less ornamented Washburns. I don;t have my Hubert book handy or could propb tell you the model but it is prob in the high 200s or 1125 (depending on year of mfg).


Thanks Jim.  Personally, I felt it was high but figured that the dealer paid more and has to get his money out of it.  I have not seen a Washburn this ornate and thought it was worth posting.

Sorry to hear about the Snow you all got and that you are out of power.  Hopefully, it will be back up soon.

----------


## brunello97

> Thanks Jim.  Personally, I felt it was high but figured that the dealer paid more and has to get his money out of it…..


Hmm.  $895 for a bling-y Washburn?  Probably going to sit around for quite some time at an antique show, let alone a vintage instrument dealer.  I've never played a pearl fretboard. I feel kind of squeamish about it, but it probably feels just fine. 

Mick

----------


## Tavy

There's a very early (1770) Vinaccia come up in eBay France

----------


## Jim Garber

Very cool, John. A good candidate for your next restoration project?

Interesting spelling for "Neapoli". Was that usual for that time or perhaps this was an import label?

----------


## brunello97

> Very cool, John. A good candidate for your next restoration project?
> 
> Interesting spelling for "Neapoli". Was that usual for that time or perhaps this was an import label?


Are you bidding on this, John?  I love it.  

Jim, Vittorio K might have a little insight into the spelling :Wink: 

Mick

----------


## Tavy

> Are you bidding on this, John?  I love it.  
> 
> Jim, Vittorio K might have a little insight into the spelling…
> 
> Mick


You guys just want to see pics of me ripping the thing apart don't you?  :Wink: 

Unless the price stays crazy low, I'll pass on that one, more of a museum piece than the players-instruments I usually go for.

----------


## Jim Garber

It could be a player's instrument given the right luthier (hint, hint) and the right player. Alison Stephens played a 1764 Vincenzo Vinaccia.

Also note: "Vinny is for sale with offers over 6,000 GBP" 

I guess they just spelled Napoli with that "e" or maybe it was the Latinized version for the label.

----------


## Tavy

> It could be a player's instrument given the right luthier (hint, hint) and the right player. Alison Stephens played a 1764 Vincenzo Vinaccia.
> 
> Also note: "Vinny is for sale with offers over 6,000 GBP"


Nod.  I note the eBay price has gone up 4-fold since I posted here  :Disbelief:   Also found this one that went for serious money at Bonhams: http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/publi...aleSectionNo=1

----------


## Jim Garber

A woman showed up with one that resembled these at CMSA in Baltimore. I examined it for quite a while. She had some printouts from the one in the V&A Museum. Hers was unlabelled and looked like almost an amateur copy to me. I am no expert on this era for sure, but it did not look like seriously high workmanship on the mandolin, I think she was asking $4000 for it, FWIW.

----------


## brunello97

> You guys just want to see pics of me ripping the thing apart don't you? 
> 
> Unless the price stays crazy low, I'll pass on that one, more of a museum piece than the players-instruments I usually go for.


John, I would like to see  the look on your face while you are ripping it apart  :Wink:  The  one at Bonham's is gorgeous.

Jim, I believe the Neapoli spelling favors the Greek influence and was hoping Victor would weigh in to confirm or debunk.  

Mick

----------


## Tavy

> A woman showed up with one that resembled these at CMSA in Baltimore. I examined it for quite a while. She had some printouts from the one in the V&A Museum. Hers was unlabelled and looked like almost an amateur copy to me. I am no expert on this era for sure, but it did not look like seriously high workmanship on the mandolin, I think she was asking $4000 for it, FWIW.


Interestingly there's a comment on the V&A website to the effect that the later ones were badly made:

"Vincenzo Vinaccia (active 1760-1785) came from one of the leading families of stringed-instrument makers in Naples, and this example, which is dated 1785, is one of the last known Vinaccia instruments. The somewhat crude decoration indicates a deterioration of quality in their workshop by that date."

Maybe Vincenzo was hit by the shaky hands and poor eyesight we'll all get one day?  :Frown:

----------


## Jim Garber

I wish they had a photo on that page of the crude Vinaccia.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> I believe the Neapoli spelling favors the Greek influence and was hoping Victor would weigh in to confirm or debunk.


Certainly! ΝΕΑ + ΠΟΛΙΣ = ΝΕΑΠΟΛΙΣ (Nea + Polis = Neapolis) An eminently well-chosen name for a _colony_, i.e. a "new city"!  :Grin: 

That "e" is carried into several other European languages (but not modern Italian or English). 

Cheers,

Victor (a Greek, but with a Latin name...  :Confused:  )

----------


## Jim Garber

Someone got a decent deal on this 1894 Giuseppe Vinaccia. It was listed on eBay last week with a reserve which it did not meet. The seller relisted with a $1000 Buy It Now and it sold right away.

----------


## Tavy

> There's a very early (1770) Vinaccia come up in eBay France


Sold for just over €4000, gulp.

Anyone here get this one (and want to admit to it?  :Wink:  )

----------


## Tavy

> Sold for just over €4000, gulp.
> 
> Anyone here get this one (and want to admit to it?  )


Well apparently no one did want to admit to it as the instrument has been relisted, though at a fixed price this time: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISA...m=170731373427

----------


## Jim Garber

As you probably know, John, that one needs a bunch of work and, as usual, you can tell something from the photos but that there will most likely be a lot that goes undiscovered. The seller has his/her hopes way up IMHO with that price. For those over here in the USA it comes to about $5400.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I am thoroughly honored to have acquired this 1904 style 3 Embergher. Thanks tons to Charley Nelson of Montgomery Violins (also an active poster on this forum). Here are a few photos.
> 
> It obviously needs some restoration work but I think it is structurally sound with nice flat top and straight fretboard.


Well, this only took about a year and a half and a couple of continents, but I am now joyously exploring the tonal possibilities of my dream Embergher in full voice and condition. Super structural work by Kurt DeCorte of Belgium and unbelievable dedication and meticulous setup work by my good friend, Ralf Leenen. If only I can play 1/100 as well as him. 

Now that the rains have subsided I hope to get some good photos to post here.

Here are a few older, pre-restoration pics:

----------


## Jim Garber

Other exciting Embergher news (this posted on Facebook):



> Classical mandolinist & former student of Alison Stephens, Chris Acquavella, is the new owner of Ali's 1933 Luigi Embergher 5bis - known as "Baby". Chris flew to London last week to pick up the beloved instrument. Purchased by Alison Stephens in 1988, "Baby" was used for Concertos, Concert recitals, Operas, Captain Corelli's Mandolin stage show and film sessions including Captain Corelli's Mandolin, Fantastic Mr Fox, The Queen, The Golden Compass, Little Ashes and the latest Harry Potter movie. After playing Baby for the first time Chris said "It's like having a conversation with an old friend". Baby will be Chris' primary instrument when he goes on tour on the West Coast in February 2012 and the East Coast & Europe in May 2012.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Jim: Congratulations on the completed Embergher restoration!  I'm sure that lovely Type 3 will give you much joy -- I am still very happy with my more modest Model A, and while I occasionally think about the higher models, even the Model A is more mandolin that I can do fully justice to.  I saw in Victor's post from CMSA last month that you were offering your own Model A for sale, presumably in anticipation of the imminent upgrade to your "new" Type 3.  I hope it found a good new home; I think these "student" models are a little gem.

Of course, also congratulations to Chris on acquiring "Baby".  Some years ago, I had the opportunity to handle, and briefly play, this instrument at a seminar and I can therefore appreciate how Chris will be feeling now.  It is great that it has found a new home in the hands of a top player with a strong personal connection to Alison and to the instrument -- there is something ineffably right about the concept of the instrument passing from the hands of the teacher to the pupil. 

Martin

----------


## trebleclef528

> Other exciting Embergher news (this posted on Facebook):


I have to say I'm absolutely delighted that Chris has taken possession of this mandolin. I could'nt think of a more fitting "destination" for Ali's instrument... and I'm very sure that Ali would be pleased that someone with such outstanding talent will keep this lovely instrument singing.

----------


## Jim Garber

The other exciting thing (to me) is that Chris will be in New York, I believe, in February, so not only we will be get to hear him play again but we will get to hear and hopefully meet Baby as well.

----------


## mandoisland

Might be intersting for this thread:

This is a TV show about antique stuff and they checked a mandolin built by Ermelinda Silvestry. The expert guessed that it has a value of about 650.- 

This mandolin looks very nice and is beautifully decorated.

http://www.br.de/fernsehen/bayerisch...doline100.html

I found a very similar mandolin signed by Mario Casella here:

http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/coll...se/?irn=252694

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Michael. I love those double bands of inlay!  Hard to imagine, though, that the decoration of the mandolin could be overshadow by that of the room  :Wink:   Quite a setting for the show.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Sort of a German Antigues Roadshow? The translation of the page (via Google) says:



> The beautiful floral inlays of glistening pearl, but also the muse Calliope shown below the rosette with a lyre in his hand, characterize this instrument in particular. The in-mounted instrument manufacturers list reveals "Fabrica di Strumenti Accorda" - the manufacturer of the stringed instrument - "Ermelinda Silvestri, Roma." The mandolin has been well repaired and the fact that there are instruments with so many ornaments rarely has a positive effect on the value.


Interesting that most of the labels of Ermelinda Silvestri say Catania. I wonder if that was earlier or later. Also the maker (a woman?) seemed to make mandolins in the Neapolitan style so I guess that she came to Roma later and learned her craft in either Catania or in Napoli.

----------


## 1980gms

The specific label of Silvestri says both names, Catania and Roma. Camera showed only one side. Probably she (?) had 2 workshops in the same time. Generally speaking the mandolins with this label were better instruments that the others with the  reference of Catania alone.

----------


## Jim Garber

I think in the video, it said Roma on the right side. I wonder what that meant. Pretty unusual for a luthier to be a woman in those days, no?

----------


## brunello97

The Musica Viva site lists her as born in 1881 and passing in 1950:

http://www.musicaviva.com/test/encyc...87&startat=201

Are there labeled/dated instruments that post-date her death?

Mick

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## 1980gms

[QUOTE=Jim Garber;998610]I think in the video, it said Roma on the right side. I wonder what that meant. 

You are absolutely right. I suppose that all these labels had different variations from time to time.......

----------


## Jim Garber

I started a thread on Larry Brown's restoration of a 1793 Fabbricatore mandolin here.

----------


## timcat

Greetings-

I've never posted before, so I will probably need some help on figuring out how to do things like get images posted that I would like to share.

I recently acquired a lovely bowlback mandolin by Anastasios Stahopoulo. It has the multipiece laminated neck, the huge tortoise shell plate around the soundhole, the AS logo in it below the soundhole and a small burned stamp of "Stathopoulo  New York". It does not have any inlay on the headstock and only has position dots inlaid on the soundboard. It has quite nice marquetry around the edge of the soundboard. There are 29 ribs. It is in excellent condition and plays like a dream, although the action is a bit high as you go up the neck. It has a large Peate Brothers label in it, and there may be another label underneath it. Peate Brothers was based in Montreal and bought mandolins made in Italy and New York and sold them under their label from 1890 to about 1920. This is 1915 or before since Anastasios died in 1915.

I have two things that I would like to know. One is: How common are mandolins made by him? And what are guesstimates on the value of it? For insurance and for sale?

----------


## Jim Garber

One main characteristic is the laminated neck. Can you post some pics? They are not so common but a few have shown up here. The action high up the neck could be a sing that it may need some neck adjustments.

----------


## timcat

I just posted pics on the pictures. The action is something that could be resolved by taking about 1/32 of an inch off the bottom of the bridge. If there is a problem with the neck, it's minor. It maybe that the bridge is not original.

----------


## timcat

Here are some pics. I am still trying to figure out how to do postings!

----------


## timcat

Woops! Here is another picture.

----------


## Jim Garber

timcat: here are instructions on how to post a picture.

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## Jim Garber

timcat: I think your bridge looks about right. Here is one with a similar bridge -- bear in mind that it is upside down.

----------


## Schlegel

I can't quite tell if the OP's bridge is supposed to have a bone saddle or if it's just a wood one-piece-  Timcat- can you do a closeup picture?

----------


## Charles E.

> Well, this only took about a year and a half and a couple of continents, but I am now joyously exploring the tonal possibilities of my dream Embergher in full voice and condition. Super structural work by Kurt DeCorte of Belgium and unbelievable dedication and meticulous setup work by my good friend, Ralf Leenen. If only I can play 1/100 as well as him. 
> 
> Now that the rains have subsided I hope to get some good photos to post here.
> 
> Here are a few older, pre-restoration pics:


Jim, looking forward to some pics.   :Wink:

----------


## Jim Garber

All right... I had taken these a few weeks ago but here they are.

----------


## Bruce Clausen

That is a thing of great beauty.  Thanks, Jim.  Of course you realise we'll be wanting to hear it too.  :Smile:

----------


## brunello97

Awesome, Jim.  What a real treat. You know I was just thinking about you today in the office, wondering how your Embergher repair had turned out.   :Smile:  I don't remember seeing the 'before' pictures when you had posted them.  This looks simply great. I realize that in my fussy way, I have nitpicked about Embergher design 'looks' over the years, but yours is simply fantastic. No silly dragon scratchplates or dopey bottle-opener headstocks, just good clear lines and details. I am hoping that you are (understandably) thrilled. Was it Kurt who did the work for you? It looks wonderful.

Yes, +1 with Bruce. More photos please and sounds when you can.

Mick

----------


## Tavy

That's a beauty Jim - sound clips please!  :Wink:

----------


## Charles E.

Thanks Jim, that is incredable.

----------


## Jim Garber

The mandolin was in excellent shape structurally. Kurt made a new scratchplate from Tortis material that Ralf had. The traditional method that Embergher used was to underlay gold leaf so there is that under the Tortis. The top was in amazing shape to being with so I don't think that much was needed there. The worse part was the ribs on the back which someone had filled with what looks like plastic wood. I think he worked that down to the original thickness and then he or his assistant finished it to match the rest of the bowl. Ralf did the final set up and fine-tuned and intonated the bridge and the new nut.

The other cool think was that it was built in 1904 when the shop was relatively small. Ralf believes that a good part of it may have actually been built by Embergher himself. Another cool detail is his signature and the model stamp inside.

I will try to do some quick sound files and I hope my playing is sufficient to give you an idea of the depth and responsive of the instrument. I stupidly did not record Ralf playing it.

----------


## brunello97

Gold leaf under the Tortis? That is pretty cool. Nice way to get some luminosity out of the scratchplate. I love the stamp.

I wonder how much 'plastic wood' is having to be surgically removed from all kinds of things. I guess like a lot of tattoos, it might have seemed like a good idea at the time.  :Frown: 


Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Closeups of original plastic wood or whatever (Bondo?) from outside and inside.

----------


## brunello97

Yikes. Looks like the stuff that Reptile Dentists use for fillings..

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Possibly one of the most over-the-top, super ornate mandolins. Makes me more than a little nauseated. Ebay Auction. Go for it!!  :Smile:

----------


## brunello97

Very 'crusty' looking. I love the pickguard design, though. Looks like an Italian/Mexican milagro done up in pearl.  A lot of MOP could be mined off that bowl. Opening bid of $1250? I'll wait until the serious bidders get in on it before making my move.  :Laughing: 

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

It is hard to say what was on the back of the neck but it was prob TS. Odd that the only label says "Italian Maker, Boston, Mass." Obviously someone else wrote that.

----------


## Bruce Clausen

I'll wait till Mick is maxed out before I jump in.  I'll be mostly after those very cool tuners.

----------


## Jim Garber

I can't tell if you folks are kidding or not. That back is truly scary. I expected to see a nicely fluted rosewood bowl. I wonder what is under all that pearl?

----------


## Schlegel

New from the makers of Shimmer!  It's a mandolin _and_ a disco ball!

----------


## Charles E.

Just the thought of cutting all that shell gives me a headache.

----------


## Bruce Clausen

I really do like the tuners, and can't remember seeing a set quite like that before.  I would think a stock set from ca. 1900, since the plate decoration doesn't resemble the inlay work.

I wonder if this could have started life as a very basic US factory instrument, which some talented but eccentric person then worked on obsessively for years.  Like a sort of miniature Watts Towers.  It's nice that it does look like someone really played it.

----------


## Richard Walz

> Very 'crusty' looking. I love the pickguard design, though. Looks like an Italian/Mexican milagro done up in pearl.  A lot of MOP could be mined off that bowl. Opening bid of $1250? I'll wait until the serious bidders get in on it before making my move. 
> 
> Mick


Yes a lot of MOP but an equal amount of 'glue' to keep the stuff in place. I'll pass on this one.

----------


## Tavy

Here's a nice Umberto Ceccherini double topper on eBay UK.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here's a nice Umberto Ceccherini double topper on eBay UK[/URL].


Nice, John. I esp like the seller's name: 	demisemiquaver !

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Looks like it's in amazingly good condition.  Nice to see the authentic string cover wish mine still had that bit.

In spite of what the ad says about shipping, I assume that due to materials this will have to remain in the EU.  Or at least it couldn't legally be brought into the US.  Can anyone confirm that?

----------


## brunello97

> Looks like it's in amazingly good condition.  Nice to see the authentic string cover— wish mine still had that bit.
> 
> In spite of what the ad says about shipping, I assume that due to materials this will have to remain in the EU.  Or at least it couldn't legally be brought into the US.  Can anyone confirm that?


Bruce, are you talking about ivory fragments, or the rosewood?  I'm not sure how this plays out now. There was a conversation in another thread about the notorious raids at Gibson and seizing of protected lumber.  Whether that applies to existing musical instruments, whether 'antiques' or not, I'd like to get a better understanding. 

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

In theory, that instrument could get you in trouble in several ways under CITES regulations, rather than the ill-considered Lacey Act revisions. The Brazilian rosewood, the tortoiseshell (?) over the ends of the strings and the ivory (?) tuner buttons would all be possible grounds for a zealous customs official to confiscate it. Documentation of its age may help escape that, but there was at least on story of an antique piano dealer who was having dreadful problems bringing in old pianos to the US because of rosewood casings and ivory keys etc. From what I understand the Lacey Act is now there to stop newly harvested timber and animal products being imported illegally (however that might be defined) into the US (ie Gibson and their Madagascan and Indian timbers which are not CITES listed), but it seems to enhanced awareness of obligations under CITES, which are international agreements about trade in endangered species (like Brazilian rosewood and ivory), and so will make it even harder to move old musical instruments across borders.

cheers

graham

----------


## mandobassman

> Possibly one of the most over-the-top, super ornate mandolins. Makes me more than a little nauseated.


I'm about to have a seizure looking at the fingerboard.  I'm with Jim.  It's about the ugliest thing I've ever seen!!!

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Thanks, Mick and Graham. It seems there's a lot of confusion out there about this sort of thing.  I wasn't thinking of the woods, but the tuning keys and scratchplate.  The question is whether these materials can no longer cross borders at all, or whether with proper documentation antiques containing them are admissible. In the nineties I shipped an antique guitar with ivory pegs to Japan, and agents there were eventually satisfied that this was exempt from the ban on importation.  But now I read that a US auction house won't export any antique violin bow without first replacing its tiny ivory cap.  Not sure if they're doing this mainly to avoid documentation headaches, or if a total ban now applies.  I'd be glad to know what the current rules are.  I do realise though that it's a very complex situation, especially in the US.

Sorry to move a little off topic here, but if we're discussing instruments for sale it would be good to know what we can and can't buy.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Looks like it's in amazingly good condition.  Nice to see the authentic string cover— wish mine still had that bit.


This Ceccherini is basically the precise twin of mine.  As far as the string cover is concerned, I'm afraid the Ebay one doesn't have an authentic cover -- the original Ceccherini (and de Meglio) covers consisted of a metal cover with a riveted-on tortoiseshell sheet mirroring the inlay on the scratchplate.  The one in the auction si just a generic bowlback string cover, but nothing like the original ones.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Too bad about the tailpiece cover, Martin, this Ceccherini looks pretty clean otherwise.  I've attached some images I have in my files of a few exuberant covers, coordinated with the overall design as you suggest. Pretty nice 'accessorizing'.  

I don't think I've heard you speak about yours in a bit. Are you still playing it often? (you have a bit of an arsenale if I'm not mistaken…)  Would love to see some fresh pictures.  :Smile: 

Mick

----------


## Tavy

> Thanks, Mick and Graham. It seems there's a lot of confusion out there about this sort of thing.  I wasn't thinking of the woods, but the tuning keys and scratchplate.  The question is whether these materials can no longer cross borders at all, or whether with proper documentation antiques containing them are admissible. In the nineties I shipped an antique guitar with ivory pegs to Japan, and agents there were eventually satisfied that this was exempt from the ban on importation.  But now I read that a US auction house won't export any antique violin bow without first replacing its tiny ivory cap.  Not sure if they're doing this mainly to avoid documentation headaches, or if a total ban now applies.  I'd be glad to know what the current rules are.  I do realise though that it's a very complex situation, especially in the US.
> 
> Sorry to move a little off topic here, but if we're discussing instruments for sale it would be good to know what we can and can't buy.


I'd love to have an answer to that myself: as you're North of the border, issues like the Lacy act won't apply to you, which is one good thing at least.

I recently shipped a Stridente to the US: no Ivory or tortoise shell, but dripping with rosewood and MOP.  I just listed it as antique with approximate age and place of manufacture on the customs form, plus all the sales documents in the outside docket, and it sailed right through US customs no trouble.  I get the impression that they're not enforcing a strict definition of the rules on personal to person shipments and/or antiques.   BTW, before shipping the buyer contacted his local customs people and they advised him that it was exempt, which is not to say that over zealous customs officials don't ever confiscate such items because plainly they do!

I also tried to do some research on this prior to shipping that last one, and got thoroughly confused.  I rather got the impression that if you wanted a fully legal shipment to the US, then you need to document every piece of plant or animal product used in the construction (it's full latin name and country of origin, plus documentation to prove that), and then ship through an FWS appoved port.  So basically impossible then - even on a new build the materials will likely all come via dealers (anyone here cut they're own MOP from oysters they caught themselves??) - and they don't document or disclose their sources  :Frown:

----------


## brunello97

Not to divert the thread from its primary discussion, but has anyone heard of a (let's face it) 'antique' mandolin being seized on account of its wood?  There must be some examples if this is moving from a teapot to a tempest.  I'm sure there are many many examples of other instruments (as folks have said, pianos, violin bows, etc.) but my question is focussed on antique mandolins, Bruce's original concern.

I've been on the shipping and receiving end of a number of old Italian bowlbacks moving across the Atlantic and around the US without incident. Hard to imagine someone paying attention to my little boxes, but you never know (I get my suitcase opened regularly when coming back from overseas--it is just how I look  :Wink:  )

The Gibson story got a lot of press (its underlying intent, my guess) but also played into the hands of the "anti-government meddling/anti-regulation" demagoguery here (other kinds of government meddling/regulations may be okay on a case-by-case basis  :Wink:  )  so it has added to some confusion as well, I think, and maybe just the prompt to stimulate confused actions at the enforcement level. 

Good laws need to have teeth, but they also need to be clearly written and communicated so that folks understand how to follow them. For anyone traveling anywhere in the world the 'overzealous custom official' seems one of the job perks. There is a lot on the Lacey Act on-line (it has been around a LONG time) to read, but it is hard to come away with clear understanding of its limits.

I make my small contribution to the problem with my selective ethics. Old rosewood makes me happy. Old (or new) ivory and tortoise makes me very sad.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

BTW in my limited experience with these "string covers", not only is it not original, I believe that most were probably celluloid,at least the ones I have and have seen.

----------


## brunello97

> BTW in my limited experience with these "string covers", not only is it not original, I believe that most were probably celluloid,at least the ones I have and have seen.


I find the early proto-plastics an interesting array of materials and would love to learn more about the tortoise to the various mothers-of-tortoise to mother-of-toilet evolutions.

Shipping celluloid by air might get you pulled over even quicker these days.  :Wink: 

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

> Too bad about the tailpiece cover, Martin, this Ceccherini looks pretty clean otherwise.  I've attached some images I have in my files of a few exuberant covers, coordinated with the overall design as you suggest. Pretty nice 'accessorizing'.  
> 
> I don't think I've heard you speak about yours in a bit. Are you still playing it often? (you have a bit of an arsenale if I'm not mistaken…)  Would love to see some fresh pictures.


Funny you should say that, as I've only just dusted it off to give it a bit more playing time.  It was with my mother for a little while, but I have taken it back now and gave her my Giuseppe Vinaccia and the other Ceccherini instead, as she prefers their tone.  Having played it again after a couple of years break, I was reminded that the double-top Ceccherini is a really nice instrument, with a distinctly different (but equally good) tone to the Embergher.  I attach some photos I took last weekend.

I've recorded a couple of Matteo Casserino's songs on the Ceccherini yesterday, both using the arrangements from Bruce Zweig's site (Link, also appearing in Sheri Mignano's book. Sheri also added a second mandolin part to "Mezza Notte", which I also play through the magic of double-tracking.  I've also added a tenor guitar backing.  I think the tone of the Ceccherini suits Neapolitan songs and ballo liscio tunes really well!





Martin

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## Graham McDonald

I think the difference is that up until a couple of years ago musical instruments being posted around the world were off the radar. Between the Lacey Act revisions and the photocopier toner package that wasn't, there is much more attention being paid to everything in the postal system. I have to now pay a $9 'inspection fee' to post a book to the US. I would expect that something the size of a mandolin coming into the US by mail is going to be at least X-rayed, if not actually opened, but what the chances are of the inspector getting all exercised by what its made of I have no idea.

cheers

graham

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## brunello97

Thanks, Martin!  Very enjoyable to hear you play. I particularly like "Napoli Tutta Luce"--very light and delicate sounding. The Ceccherini sounds good across the dynamic spectrum from the gentle passages to the more dramatic. What a great song!

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

Thanks, Mick -- I enjoyed playing the Ceccherini on these tunes, and there is a particular resonant quality to the tone that I think is the contribution of the suspended double top.

I've just realised that the embedded Youtube clips in my previous post don't show the name of the tune on the static thumbnail: the first clip is "Mezza Notte (Napoli A)", a ballo liscio tune by an unknown composer (at least Sheri hasn't managed to locate one), and the second clip is "Napoli Tutta Luce" by C.A. Bixio, a Neapolitan song also recorded by Carlo Buti and Vittorio de Sica.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Vittorio de Sica? I didn't know he also sang, but I guess that shouldn't come as a surprise. We just watched him in Rossellini's "Il Generale Della Rovere" this past weekend. Good movie. Any chance of his recording showing up on that Lost Wax site?

I enjoy playing both those songs as well and remember the delight (and breakthrough) discovering Bruce's transcriptions. Sheri's book is an amazing resource and her accomplishment in collecting all that music is priceless.  It is a nice recording that you made and gives me some sense of the Ceccherini's quality.  Would love to play one some day.

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

> Vittorio de Sica? I didn't know he also sang, but I guess that shouldn't come as a surprise. We just watched him in Rossellini's "Il Generale Della Rovere" this past weekend. Good movie. Any chance of his recording showing up on that Lost Wax site?


No need for that: it's already on Youtube along with 1930s recordings by Carlo Buti and by Daniele Serra:

Daniele Serra
Vittorio de Sica (in rather rough sound quality)
Carlo Buti

The Buti video also has the lyrics, with the charming chorus:

_Suonano i mandolini
fioriscono i giardini
Napoli è tutta sole
tutto risplende in te._

I think the reason that De Sica has recorded it is that the song was written for the soundtrack of the 1934 movie "_La canzone del sole_" (IMDB), in which De Sica played one of the leads very early in his career.  This apppears to have been a German-Italian co-production, although for some reason the German version has its own IMDB page with the same cast but a 1933 production date.  No idea if it was remade the following year, or it's just a glitch in IMDB.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Martin, great stuff!  Listening to singers to help develop dynamics for playing is always useful to me.  Three very different versions of the song for thinking about that.  Serra's is very dramatic (Caruso influence? Gardel?) and I prefer it among the three in its own terms, but De Sica's is perhaps the most delicate which gives me a lot of ideas for playing. Can't wait to get home from the office

No sign of La Canzone del Sole on Netflix (looks like great shooting locations.)  Have you seen the film?  Seeing a Italo-German production from 1933 would be very interesting. Right on the cusp before things started getting weird. I'd like to track it down, but I guess I'll have to dig a little deeper.

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

No, I haven't seen the film and don't know if it survives.  There is a bit more detail, and a plot outline, at Italian Wikipedia (Link). More details, and a screenshot and plot synopsis in English, at this German website: Link.  It's a basic screwball comedy involving De Sica as a young lawyer who pretends to be a famous tenor (Giacomo Lauri Volpi, playing himself) in order to impress a female singing student pretending to be a theatrical impressario.  Seems it was shown at a film festival in 2010, suggesting that prints have survived.

Finally, searching for Lauri-Volpi and the German film title on Youtube gives an actual 6:43 minute excerpt of the movie, albeit concentrating on Lauri-Volpi's singing and not containing the song we're discussing: Link.  Shot on location at the arena in Verona during a performance of Les Huguenots by Meyerbeer.

Martin
(back to bowlbacks after this off-topic excursion)

----------


## brunello97

Martin, this sounds pretty great so you have really enticed me to want to see it. The scene from Verona is classic. I love the giant sets (what is the dog doing on stage?)  We saw 'La Forza del Destino' there back in '04 or '05 and the crowd shots don't look much different. We were sitting up on the old stone seats which had been soaking up the sun all day (all summer.) Experienced Italians had brought seat cushions…

The "Blockbuster" video chain here shows the film on their website but it is not available in any outlet near me. Our university library (which has nearly everything) also lacks it.  I have a colleague from Bari who teaches on Italian film and I will query him on sources. Inter-library loan may turn something up.  The ripping I know a thing or two about myself.

Thanks again, for this enjoyable diversion. Yes, I cede the thread back to its regularly scheduled bowlback conversations. 

Mick

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## Tavy

Martin, lovely playing on those videos: the sound of the Ceccherini really shines through and seems ideally suited to the music!

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## Jim Garber

> Here's a nice Umberto Ceccherini double topper on eBay UK.


Yikes... all this talk and Martin's playing has bumped up the final price on this one: GBP 720.00 (Approximately US $1,117.94)

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## brunello97

Wow. It is pretty clean mandolin,  but that is a nice price.  

Martin is too much of a square shooter to take credit,  but I think a little Welsh baksheesh seems to be in order.  :Wink: 

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

The final price probably has to do with the discussion here, but Ceccherinis have in the past obtained very variable prices -- this is by no means the top end of previous Ebay sales and online listings, whereas others have gone for a pittance.  I bought mine for 400GBP seven years ago and thought then (and still think now) that was a very good deal and as prices of good (and playable) bowlbacks have gone up since then, I wouldn't think that 720GBP is outlandish now.  On the other hand, I've also bought a 10-string Ceccherini (albeit much less clean than this one) for 50GBP on Ebay.

I think this price variability is largely because there isn't the name recognition as for Emberghers, Calaces or Vinaccias, which means that high prices are reached when there's more than one keen bidder, and low prices when there is not.

Just to round off Ceccherini week here in the BON thread, I've just recorded another one of the Matteo Casserini tunes on mine, this one a fast waltz written by Eldo Di Lazzaro to words by G. Micheli and R. Micheli. As a song, it has been recorded by Connie Francis, Claudio Villa, Luciano Tajoli, Alvaro Amici, Carlo Buti and others.  I've put the lyrics in the video description on Youtube.  My recording is based on the hand-written Matteo lead sheet, with additional harmonies from Sheri's book:

La Romanina

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Martin!!! Stop recording those tunes. Your fanbase is salivating over those Ceccherinis. The prices are skyrocketing now.  :Smile:

----------


## girldingo

Hi, I just came across this Ceccherini posting....and it made me smile this morning.  Tonight, I'll be playing the Ballo Liscio tunes at Cafe Trieste in Berkeley, with Bruce Zweig and a few other cast members.  My "Umberto C." will be joining me too.  I picked this one up through the cafe's classifieds, a few years ago.  It's only been recently, after a few minor adjustments, that it's started to blossom.  Now, it's become my primary instrument for italian and classical music.

----------


## Jim Garber

That is so wonderful and envious that Caffe Trieste has been going on for that long. One of these days I must get out there and hang with you folks.

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## brunello97

> Martin!!! Stop recording those tunes. Your fanbase is salivating over those Ceccherinis. The prices are skyrocketing now.


 :Wink: 

"Umberto C."  I love it.

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

> Tonight, I'll be playing the Ballo Liscio tunes at Cafe Trieste in Berkeley, with Bruce Zweig and a few other cast members.  My "Umberto C." will be joining me too.  I picked this one up through the cafe's classifieds, a few years ago.  It's only been recently, after a few minor adjustments, that it's started to blossom.  Now, it's become my primary instrument for italian and classical music.


Great to hear!  Is that Victor's old Ceccherini you're playing?  One issue with both mine and Victor's (and possibly a common one with Ceccherinis in general) was that the original nut position was a couple of milimetres to far away from the first fret resulting in the lower frets intonating sharp.  I corrected that one mine, which was fairly straightforward (there is an old thread about it), and it now intonates spot-on.  The frets in themselves are in the correct positions, so it's just a nut correction.  Is that the setup adjustments you mentioned?  If not, you may want to check intonation on the lower frets.

Great to hear Caffe Trieste is going strong!  Next time, give my regards to Bruce and (if she's there as well) Sheri Mignano -- I've corresponded with both and I'm grateful for the work they've put into keeping this repertoire going!

Martin

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## brunello97

> Great to hear Caffe Trieste is going strong!  Next time, give my regards to Bruce and (if she's there as well) Sheri Mignano -- I've corresponded with both and I'm grateful for the work they've put into keeping this repertoire going!
> 
> Martin


Martin is so right. Bruce and Sheri have provided an incredibly vital link to open up this great music to many of us not lucky enough to live in walking distance of Caffe Trieste. If Scott is out there listening  :Wink:  an updated '10 minute' MC interview with Sheri or Bruce would be great to add to the site.  The recent conversation with Carlo was a real pleasure.

Mick

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## girldingo

Here's a video clip from Dec.26, 2011, at Caffe Trieste in Berkeley....some glorious italian music. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zs4r...ccAUAAAAAAAAAA

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## Martin Jonas

Lovely clip of Mezza Notte, Girldingo -- thanks for posting!  I presume that's you with your Ceccherini front left?

I also like your other clip of Mazurka per Catarina, a tune I've never quite got to grips with.  Should try again, probably.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

> Here's a video clip from Dec.26, 2011, at Caffe Trieste in Berkeley....some glorious italian music. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zs4r...ccAUAAAAAAAAAA


Wonderful!  I am watching/listening with my morning 'Caffe'.  Nice way to start the day.

thanks!

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I thought that this was a newly for sale 1957 Embergher (pecoraro) but Rafl leenen reports that this same instrument is owned by a member of his ensemble. *So, this is a scam.*

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## brunello97

> I thought that this was a newly for sale 1957 Embergher (pecoraro) but Rafl leenen reports that this same instrument is owned by a member of his ensemble. *So, this is a scam.*


Jim, did you or Ralf contact the Ebay folks about this?  That is a lovely fluted maple bowl; a really rich surface.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Ralf did. Built by Pecoraro.

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## Martin Jonas

It's showing as "sale pending", so it's too late for potential buyers, but I've just noticed that Chris Acquavella has been selling his 2004 5bis replica by Liuteria Romana in the Cafe classifieds, presumably to make space for "Baby".  At his asking price of $2500, this strikes me as a very good deal indeed!



Martin

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## Jim Garber

I hope that that 1957 Embergher seller did not scam anyone and it looks like eBay removed it. I have those very pictures in my files. It was sold in May of 2009.

----------


## brunello97

Here is an interesting Carabba mandolin for sale on Ebay.it.  I've only seen a few of these and there was a short conversation about one in the "Post a Picture of Your Bowlback" thread last summer, I believe.

http://www.ebay.it/itm/ANTICO-MANDOL...t_24155wt_1286

I find the metal and MOP detailing to be quite nice.  The nut to tuner string arrangement is a bit curious. I've only seen this on another Carabba. Was it used by others? It looks rather severe. It does leave the headstock rather clean and open.

Mick

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## brunello97

Another example of Catanese design exuberance.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-GRAS...t_21065wt_1286

Certainly more than a bit over the top for my bowl-amigos here, but I like the chevrons and braided top border. Can't imagine running my fingers over that kind of fretboard though.

Grasso Toscano Santi?  I have an Italian cousin, Fatty Carmelo, who is anything but saintly.

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## FadeOutAgain

Brunello, that instrument is beautiful!

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## Jim Garber

Hmmm... that poor mandolin Grasso Toscano Santi has been thru the mill. Prob best left there tho. I doubt it would be worth the restoration effort.

----------


## Eugene

Congrats, Chris, and be well.

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## Tavy

There's a Luigi Embergher come up on eBay US.

However, not only has the top collapsed, but someone has re-profiled the bridge (quite well actually) to match the collapsed top!

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## Jim Garber

John, the seller of that Embergher style B is actually in Schonungen, Germany. Boy, that is a near basket-case as far as the top is concerned. I think the seller is dreaming for that BIN price. it could be a $1500 repair job to get it properly playable.

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## brunello97

Check this out:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-MART...#ht_500wt_1346

Old Martin jig for gluing up bowlbacks it seems. I tossed in a desultory bid, but I'd just as soon copy and rebuild a version. Very cool. I've seen simpler means to accomplish the same task, but I dig the early 3D jigging.

Mick

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## Tavy

> Check this out:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-MART...#ht_500wt_1346
> 
> Old Martin jig for gluing up bowlbacks it seems. I tossed in a desultory bid, but I'd just as soon copy and rebuild a version. Very cool. I've seen simpler means to accomplish the same task, but I dig the early 3D jigging.
> 
> Mick


Interesting for sure... not sure what you would do with it though...

Also see that the same seller has a Martin Mandolin mold (flatback?) up for auction as well.

----------


## brunello97

> Interesting for sure... not sure what you would do with it though...


Probably just look at it for awhile, John, and try to determine how adjustable the X,Y,Z position of the screw clamp pressure-point locations really are. Not worth spending more than a few pesos to learn that though.  I've got a bowl form that has been sitting waiting to get milled (for too long) in our shop and have been considering different (much simpler) ways of fixing staves as they are being glued up.  I haven't rejected the simpler pin/cleat/tape type solutions one sees in old (and new) bowlback building. This device may have been technological overkill even in its day, but it appeals to my admittedly an-l architect's mind of overwhelming materiality with technology  :Wink:   Or at least that is the tacit mantra in our digital fabrication lab. None of this is to be confused with the true pleasures hand working materials..

Mick

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## Jim Garber

That is a little strange to me. I wonder if it was actually used. George Youngblood (acousticmusic.org) has a bowlback mold he showed me -- he also thought it was from Martin, but that was a carved bowl shape that you held the glued ribs on with pins. I am not so sure that this eBay one makes sense. Maybe there are a few parts missing?

It certainly would be a good conversation piece.

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## brunello97

Yeah, I've seen those pin/cleat mold processes for bowlbacks. This one makes pretty clear sense to me, whether it was actually used for such a purpose or not. (Maybe for pressing duck?) It looks like you can rotate the top arch over the mold and adjust the screws downward for holding staves in place along their length-in lieu of pins, cleats or ür scotch tape. There would need to be a proper mold to hold them against. Pretty ingenious, actually, even if it is a bit of overkill. Work your way from skirt to center line. The holes in the bottom plate could be for locating and registering the bowl mold itself. Is it an improvement over the pin/tape method?  Maybe it wound up in the back closet at Martin along with that pretty cruddy looking frame mold the seller also has.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting looking higher end 1899 fluted back Calace from a seller in Peru. Interesting label... I must check my files to see if I have one with a label like that. I would think this was for export. What language is "Fratres"? Mick?

----------


## brunello97

Latin.

Nice looking bowl.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> Latin.


Ah! for some reason my mind went blank on that one. I guess the Calace clan was copying the violin makers.

----------


## Graham McDonald

I got a phone call a couple of weeks ago from an antique dealer in Sydney who told me he had come across an ornate bowlback mandolin in need of much restoration. We were going up to Sydney (3 hour drive) this weekend to see family anyway and we were going to be going past the the antique store, so we dropped in. I wasn't quite sure if he was looking for someone to restore it, or looking to sell it, but when he said I could have it for $50, I couldn't resist. It is in need of a lot of work. The label says Pietro (I think) Torelli of Naples, with no date that I can find. The label is well eaten by silverfish or similar beasties. Dave Hynds has a A. and a Luigi Torelli, as well as a Pietro Tonelli listed as Neapolitan makers.

The body is 33 rosewood ribs with very thin light veneer between them and the top is edged with a strip of satinwood cut at an angle. The binding it self is strips of tortoise shell (those that remain) with a piece of MoP under the tailpiece. The scratch plate is tortoise as well with engraved MoP and ivory inset. The fretboard is a base of ebony, faced with more tortoise and ivory and MoP inlay and uses bar frets. The head is inlayed with MoP, abalone and silver wire. I have not come across a mandolin decorated in this way before, with this much art-nouveau influence. It really is very elegant.

The soundboard seems solid with no deformation, but the real problem is that the ribs have almost completely detached from the neck block, so that whole vital structural glue joint is going to need to be redone. Most of the tortoise binding is missing as are several of the blocks of tortoise in the middle of the fretboard. This should keep me occupied for a while. The tortoise is quite pale and it will be interesting to see if I can find some to match

cheers

graham

----------


## Jim Garber

I have quite a few jpeg examples of mandolins by Pietro Tonelli but not Torelli and none as ornate as yours. The labels I have in these have an ornate frame but as far as I can tell are different from the ones inside of yours. Can you get a pic of the label?

----------


## Tavy

Nice find Graham - looks like it's going to be a complete dis-assembly job to fix up though!

Like Jim I've seen lots of "Pietro Tonelli" instruments but no "Torelli".

Keep us informed how that one goes, it should be quite spectacular when finished  :Smile:

----------


## Graham McDonald

Here is a shot of the remains of the Torelli label.

cheers

----------


## Tavy

Stranger and stranger - the name looks to be more like "TORREL", "Torelli" would normally have one r and 2 l's as you had in your message, and "Torreli" gets practically no google hits.

----------


## Graham McDonald

My fault entirely for getting it wrong, but it looks like there is another letter after the 'l', with a hint of something above the eaten bit, but it could be almost anything. I have spent a fair bit of time just looking at it trying to work out an approach to pulling it apart and then gluing it all back together. Interesting.

cheers

----------


## Martin Jonas

Looking at that label, it also occurs to me that the hand-written signature quite clearly ends in "-o", and seems to have a double-L.  So, "Torrello", meaning that there are two damaged letters at the end of the printed word.  Maybe the 1890s version of a "Givson", seeking to steal customers from "Pietro Tonelli".

Martin

----------


## Graham McDonald

It could well be Torrello and I would suggest that this is a higher class instrument than the Tonelli that Jim has shown, or the ones (the same?) on Dave Hynds page. The inlay and engraving work is high quality and much more adventurous than almost anything I have seen on an Italian mandolin before.The asymmetrical head is most unusual. The detail on the girl on the scratch plate is very good engraving work and there is a continuity in the decoration of the whole interment which is very pleasing.

cheers

----------


## brunello97

I like the looks of it, too, Graham, and look forward to your rehabilitation. The Art Nouveau/Stile Liberty linework, in particular, seems suited to the many curvatures a designer must accommodate with a mandolin.  The headstock looks like a couple bites wee taken out of it though.  

Pietro Torello? Maybe he took his name from the nearby town. He must have been a young bull of a man.  :Wink: 

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks, Graham, for the label photo. Definitely Torrell_. Mick, I think that the headstock is actually asymmetrical to go with the inlay. That is very interesting. Big work ahead for the neck join and the top, but it could be worth it. With the amount of ornamentation I would have expected a fluted bowl but it is still a nice looking mandolin.

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting Fratelli Vinaccia here. You don't often see them with a slotted headstock. A simple one labelled 1900 that looks like it needs some work.

----------


## brunello97

That is an interesting mandolin, Jim.  Curious also is the label, which has an address in 1900 located at 25 Strada S. Maria la Nova. I have Fratelli Vinaccia labels from 1898 and 1909 both from the Rua Catalana address we see throughout the '90s (and where Pasquale had a shop.)

Mick

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## Tavy

While we're on the subject of Vinaccia's, there's a Gennaro Vinaccia violin from 1755 on eBay UK

----------


## Graham McDonald

I did find a 1900 date  'F.lli VINACCIA fu Ple e Nipote C. Munier' label from the S.Maria la Nova 25 address when I was trying to puzzle out the various Vinaccia permutations last year. There was the original shop at 53 Rua Catalana until at least 1898, the S.Maria la Nova 25 until around 1902 and the 25 Via Santa Chiara address and then several others after 1909. There is also a  1906 'Gaetano Vinaccia di Gennaro' label at 96 Rua Catalana, but I think he might have been a separate operation.

Graham




> That is an interesting mandolin, Jim.  Curious also is the label, which has an address in 1900 located at 25 Strada S. Maria la Nova. I have Fratelli Vinaccia labels from 1898 and 1909 both from the Rua Catalana address we see throughout the '90s (and where Pasquale had a shop.)
> 
> Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I will also have to check my numerous Vinaccia files to see if I have anything to add to this.

----------


## brunello97

> I will also have to check my numerous Vinaccia files to see if I have anything to add to this.


That would be great, Jim. A lot of different skins in the Vinaccia to squeeze through.  Graham, you had me looking back in my files and I did find a F.V. with nephew Carlo label with the S. Maria la Nova address, which looks like it is just a few blocks from Rua Catalana.  The interesting thing is that the Fratelli were putting out mandolins with the Rua Catalana address both before AND after they were labeling from the S. Maria la Nova address.  Seems like they later had a place on S. Sebastiano.  All of these addresses including S. Chiara, are pretty close to one another in Napoli.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

As if we need further reason to fully appreciate the restoration work done by our friends John (aka Tavy) and our all-too-infrequent-vato, Dave, have a look at this Puglisi:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...t_11062wt_1331

As with many Catanese mandolins, it is easier to appreciate the design brio than perhaps the results.  Just the same, it is nice to imagine what a more sensitive hand (such as John's or Dave's) would have brought to this mandolin, which appears to be quite nice and in eminently playable condition. (A lot of work must have gone into those frets..)

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Here's an earl(ier) example from I Fratelli V with a label type I had not seen before albeit at the Via Catalana address.

http://www.ebay.it/itm/MANDOLINO-ART...t_11174wt_1486

Nice looking mandolin, maybe enough to give me the kick to get my Fra' V playable.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

This top of the line Washburn went for a reasonable. Yes, it has some oddness -- like the notes etched into the pearl fretboard. But at that price and with a non-original but very sellable L&H tailpiece cover, it went for a song.

----------


## Tavy

> This top of the line Washburn went for a reasonable. Yes, it has some oddness -- like the notes etched into the pearl fretboard. But at that price and with a non-original but very sellable L&H tailpiece cover, it went for a song.


Wow, that's a beauty for sure!

----------


## brunello97

Not to distract from the feedback and anecdotes from the Aonzo workshop but here is a very curiously proportioned (and named) bowlback: "American-Martha".  The birdseye maple is very nice (looks like a good pair of ostrich boots.)  A few "American" named companies on Mugwumps. Any ideas about where this might be from? Hoboken?

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Here is an interesting big bowl from Fernando del Perugia: scalloped fingerboard and northern (Brescian?) style bridge.  The side view makes it hard to see the depth of the bowl.  The nut spacing is curious, as it looks like it is set up for 10 strings.  In my limited experience, this is new to me.  Anyone seen something like this before?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ht_8658wt_1288

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I have a feeling it was a std 6 string lombard. That tailpiece looks odd and the neck was grafted. both were poorly done. All the other Perugia mandolins I have in my files are more standard 8 strings.

I believe that Martin Jonas had a real Ceccherini 10 string but it did not resemble this one at all.

----------


## brunello97

Nothing Neapolitan about it at all, Ceccherini or otherwise.  I think the # of strings is a red herring. The bridge looks like it was set up for 10 or more at one time. The tailpiece for 6. The tuners for 8. Weird. I guess that type of Italian neck joint comes in handy: Frankenstein del Perugia.

Not having seen one in person, I assumed the Lombardy bridges were of one piece. Either way, maybe some work was done there and this one was also modified/grafted on to the original.

Mick

----------


## Tavy

This is a new maker to me (but then all the US makes are!), this one made by Rex, and certainly looks the part:

----------


## Jim Garber

Rex is a brandname of the Gretsch Company, at that time in Brooklyn, NY. Outside of the few semi-nasty top cracks and the fact that the bridge is on backwards, it looks like a nice instrument.

----------


## brunello97

Are you interested in bidding, John?  Nice details at the neck/head and neck/bowl. I also like the rosette MOP quite a bit. I've never been a huge fan of the ornamental scratch plates on classic era US bowlbacks.

Mick

----------


## Tavy

Jim: you're right that it certainly needs some work.
Mick: no not bidding - wrong side of the pond to be a viable project for me  :Frown:

----------


## Jim Garber

That Rex has the L&H pickguard shape as well as one of the headstock shapes they used.

----------


## Jim Garber

Very simple D'Angelico-labelled bowlback in not perfect shape with a not perfect price. Some cracks and needs a neckset. Without the label it would prob sell on eBay for $100-200 as-is. 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...



> In other words, this mandolin is cosmetically very good plus but structurally only good condition, at best, but, because it is a John DAngelico hand-made mandolin we feel any modern mandolin collector worth his or her salt (or salt substitute) will want to own this because it was made by the greatest American independent guitar builder of the first two thirds of the 20th century.

----------


## billkilpatrick

has weight ever been mentioned in terms of noteworthyness?  i asked my friend to lend me the american-made "a. galiano" bowlback she'd once given me (and returned, with thanks) so as to compare it to the german-made "superton sing" bowlback i just bought.  when compared, the "galiano" was much heavier, with much less projection than the "sing."  is this generally true with all heavier, solidly built mandolins?

----------


## brunello97

> Very simple D'Angelico-labelled bowlback in not perfect shape with a not perfect price. Some cracks and needs a neckset. Without the label it would prob sell on eBay for $100-200 as-is. 
> 
> Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...


Wassamatta, "Ol' Salty", the cash-discount price isn't good enough?  :Wink: 

Reading the Mando Bros. cloying ads is pretty withering (or annoying, one.)  This one is going to be collecting some Staten Island dust for awhile. I do like the pickguard shape.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I have three other D'A-labelled bowlbacks and they all pretty much look alike tho this one has a different font on the label. Mando Bros does have a bunch of new interesting mandolins to try. I might have to make a pilgrimage.

----------


## brunello97

> I have three other D'A-labelled bowlbacks and they all pretty much look alike tho this one has a different font on the label. Mando Bros does have a bunch of new interesting mandolins to try. I might have to make a pilgrimage.


Can you make a pilgrimage by boat? How would you get over there from where you live, Jim?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I can either go over the Verrazano Bridge thru Brooklyn or over the Goethals(?) Bridge from NJ. I prefer doing the latter if I have no real need to go into New York City. BTW I did not mean above that I own the D'A bowlbacks, only that I have jpegs of them. Here are a few.

----------


## Tavy

> has weight ever been mentioned in terms of noteworthyness?  i asked my friend to lend me the american-made "a. galiano" bowlback she'd once given me (and returned, with thanks) so as to compare it to the german-made "superton sing" bowlback i just bought.  when compared, the "galiano" was much heavier, with much less projection than the "sing."  is this generally true with all heavier, solidly built mandolins?


I'm not sure that weight is the right measurement - in terms of volume, the loudest bowl I've had was a rather solidly built Il Globo - that said it was also a little harsh (but might have settled down in time, I never got the chance to find out  :Frown:  ).  Obviously if you go too far in either extreme then the sound will suffer (quiet if it's too well built, thin sounding if it's... well thin), but in between there's seems to be quite a bit of wriggle room.  For example there's a school of thought in guitar building that wants heavy, really strong and stiff rims, but with lightweight flexible top and backs hung off the stiff rim - the result can be very loud and long sustaining instruments.  If you were to do the same thing in mandolin construction, the result would seem rather heavy given that most of the weight in mandolins comes from the neck, sides and tail blocks anyway (the very things you're beefing up).

Which is a roundabout way of saying that it's the bracing, thickness and shape of the top (along with bridge geometry) that determines 90% + of the volume and tone.

Just my 2c..... John.

----------


## billkilpatrick

trying to understand why one bowlback is easy to play - more comfortable - and the other not as much.  they're both about equal in length; the german "sing" is lighter in weight (wooden girdle on the "a. galiano" may account for that); its bowl slightly deeper - its top narrower at the neck; the fingerboard is a couple of mm's wider and its tuning platform bends at a more horizontal angle.  the "sing" has the "egg-shell" feel and sound of a treble lute while the "a. galiano" feels like it'll survive a bar-room brawl - really, really enjoying it. 

when can i expect to receive my "brotherhood of the bowl" pin? - there's a space on my alpine hat (next to the dapper little spray of badger hair)

----------


## Jim Garber

> when can i expect to receive my "brotherhood of the bowl" pin? - there's a space on my alpine hat (next to the dapper little spray of badger hair)


it is on its way... you know how the Italian postal system is...  :Smile:

----------


## brunello97

> it is on its way... you know how the Italian postal system is...


Victor, John, and I put some special treats in the package along with your pin, Bill.  I'm sure it will be arriving, well, any day now.

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

i haven't had my coffee yet - part of me just went "oo - i wonder what it could be?"

----------


## Bill Foss

Wasn't sure if this was the right discussion, but does anyone play an Eastman bowlback? There is one I am thinking of purchasing and would like to hear some opinions from the cafe first.

----------


## Jim Garber

I finally got to play one at CMSA this year. I only played it for a maybe a minute tho, so i would not say that this is a thorough review. As I recall, this was a nice sounding and playing instrument. This particular one was set up very well and I did like it more than I thought I would. I do wish I have more time to put it thru its paces but I don't think you can go too wrong  if the price is right for you. 

I know that Buzz Gravelle demoed one a few years back for Eastman and he was positive about it as well. I don't know of anyone who actually plays one as their main instrument, tho I believe there was a player at the Aonzo workshop in NY who played one.

----------


## Bill Foss

Thanks Jim! Anyone else?

----------


## margora

"I finally got to play one at CMSA this year. I only played it for a maybe a minute tho, so i would not say that this is a thorough review. As I recall, this was a nice sounding and playing instrument."

I also played this particular instrument at CMSA and thought it was well set up, well made, and definitely worth the money if one prefers a modern instrument and does not want to spend $3,000+, say, on a Pandini.  FWIW, I think the Eastman is superior to the equivalent instrument from Calace (I own a modern Calace at about the same price point); Victor K. might disagree, though.    Also David Miller, who is a very fine player, uses an Eastman bowlback.

----------


## Jim Garber

I agree with Bob. I played a recent Calace and tho it was all right, the neck seemed quite clubby. I don't think Victor's is like that. Bob probably played the one at CMSA and I would trust his assessment. 

Smiley: have you played the one you are considering? is it maple or rosewood bowled? I can't recall what the Eastman I played was. I thought maple.

----------


## vkioulaphides

I don't quite know the reason behind this, but the neck on my 2004 Calace tapers rather elegantly, _almost_ to a Romanesque V-shape by the time it reaches the pegbox; other Calaces I've seen _do_ in fact have rather clubby, nearly perfect U-shaped necks. I have no idea of what lies behind this curious discrepancy...

The price-point has slipped (upwards, of course) since the time I got mine; all told, case, shipping, this-and-that fees and taxes, insurance, etc., etc., etc., mine set me back shy of $1,000, a mere 8 years ago. I thought it was a good deal then, and still do now. Yet there seems to have been an irritating 100-euro mark-up at the Calace shop, year in, year out. So now the price-point may have caught up with where Eastman instruments stand.

That said, I do like Eastman mandolins, from what I've seen and heard. As for matters of taste, there's no accounting.  :Wink: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

I have played yours, Victor and I do recall that the neck was quite nice and comfortable. The other recently made Calace mandolin I played had a very clubby and chubby neck. Maybe the guy who makes the necks changed and he prefers that shape or maybe they had some problems with necks -- I wonder if there is any reinforcement inside the neck.

----------


## brunello97

What do y'all mean by "chubby/clubby"? I realize this is a hard thing to describe without a photo, but may comparisons might help. How does that comp to a vintage Vega or Washburn neck?--both Louisville Sluggers when comped to their Italian contemporaries. Are the new Calace necks still made out of softwoods or have they gone to something more sturdy? 

My Vinaccia's neck is as slender as, well, Audrey Hepburn's. 

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

Yes, measurements would help, indeed. A perfect U-shape would be "clubby" by definition, I suppose, but there's U-shapes and there's U-shapes... Pecoraro's V-shaped necks are sometimes ~quite~ chunkier than Embergher's, so of course the devil's in the details. If the scientifically inclined and qualified would like to speak metrically, please do so; all _I_ know is what fits nicely in my own hand, what doesn't. I'm but a lowly _jongleur_...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Graham McDonald

The 'feel' of neck has most to do with how the cross-section tapers in the section immediately under the fingerboard. If the top few mm of the neck stays at much the same width as the fingerboard, the neck will 'feel' thicker than if the taper starts right at the bottom of the fingerboard. No idea about measurements, as I don't really measure anything other than sometimes a first facet cut away from the rectangular rough neck shaft. One thing I have noticed over the years is that a neck can feel quite different with the strings on, as distinct from how it feels in the hand when carving it. Must be something in how it sits in the left hand with strings fitted.

cheers

g




> Yes, measurements would help, indeed. A perfect U-shape would be "clubby" by definition, I suppose, but there's U-shapes and there's U-shapes... Pecoraro's V-shaped necks are sometimes ~quite~ chunkier than Embergher's, so of course the devil's in the details. If the scientifically inclined and qualified would like to speak metrically, please do so; all _I_ know is what fits nicely in my own hand, what doesn't. I'm but a lowly _jongleur_...
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Victor

----------


## billkilpatrick

> ... My Vinaccia's neck is as slender as, well, Audrey Hepburn's. ...


a friend of mine who sells wine devised something similar - she described one year's vintage as "grace kelly," another's as "j. lo," "penelope cruz," etc., etc..  an audrey hepburn neck, monica bellucci bowl, grace kelly sound board and ethel merman sound hole will do me.

----------


## Jim Garber

Ethel Merman (!) aside...

Clubby/chubby as Victor noted is in the hands of the beholder. If it were scaled up to guitar size it would be baseball-battish.

----------


## billkilpatrick

... martha raye? - i'd like it to pro-ject!

----------


## Jim Garber

Interesting Embergher on Italy eBay. Seller says it is a style 4. Pretty unusual in that it is 1912 which is late for a symmetrical pickguard. Unusual inlay as well throughout -- they look more like ones that would appear on American instruments. AFAIK style 4s were basically style 3s as a custom order. I have only seen a few pics of style 4s so each may be unique.

----------


## billkilpatrick

"like" button ... can't find it

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## brunello97

Beautiful instrument, Jim. Now that's a neck.  

FWLIW I never been a big fan of Embergher pickguards. Everything seems to me out of balance in the design visuals (in contrast to the sound and playing, I am sure.) While symmetrical pg seems in contrast to all the fretboard and bridge asymmetry, at least it is a bit calmer. I like it.  Do those look like repaired top cracks along the fb?  


The maple bowl is exquisite as is the profiling on the skirt. Laura Antonelli?  

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

My 1904 has the symmetrical pg. I thought they switched over around 1907, that is why I thought it odd that it had one of those. Also, I have never seen one from that period with an ebony pg. I have to look at my book and see what the examples of style 4s look like. They are pretty rare tho. 

There is a small picture of one on Ralf Leenen's site but it is a later one with a dragon inlay on the pg.

Yes the seller mentions repaired top cracks:




> Mandolin Luigi Embergher Roma, via delle carrozze n.19, 1912, represents the model of production Embergher  n° 4, has 32 fluted maple slats, refined decoration in precious materials in the pickguard and headstock, original mark on the back of the headstock, the conditions are good but has undergone a restoration of two old cracks in the soundboard, fully closed (photo 3), also had another restoration of some customs but these repairs were performed masterfully and do not require further action. The paint is original and beautiful, the mechanics in horn are in perfect working, original tailpiece and bridge, the strings should be replaced.

----------


## Jim Garber

I just looked thru Ralf Leenen's book and he has only one example of a No. 4 (the one in that grouping above). That one is more ornate and has the asymmetrical scroll pickguard and dates from 1910.

I am not sure what this current eBay one is. Either it is a customized 3 (a 3 1/2?) or else it is a 3 that someone added his or her own ornamentation including ebony symmetrical pickguard, new fret markers and some engraved ivory or bone inlays. Sort of strange, I would say. Also, those engraved inlays on the headstock look a little rough and not quite up to the skill of what I would expect from the Emberghger shop. Please pardon my skepticism. There is something a little odd to me about this one.

----------


## Bill Foss

[QUOTE=Smiley: have you played the one you are considering? is it maple or rosewood bowled? I can't recall what the Eastman I played was. I thought maple.[/QUOTE]

I have not played either instrument. I'm considering a Calace rosewood Model 15 listed on the Cafe that is in my area to try out in person (always preferred), or an Eastman on Ebay, also rosewood. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI...ht_1691wt_1308

Hmm, there is another Calace now listed on the cafe from 1962 with with rosewood back.

----------


## Tavy

Whatever model the Embergher may be, it sure is pretty.  Some mighty fine workmanship on that one!

----------


## Jim Garber

> I have not played either instrument. I'm considering a Calace rosewood Model 15 listed on the Cafe that is in my area to try out in person (always preferred), or an Eastman on Ebay, also rosewood. 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI...ht_1691wt_1308
> 
> Hmm, there is another Calace now listed on the cafe from 1962 with with rosewood back.


The Calace with the big neck I tried a few weeks ago was recently made prob 2011 or 2010. It would be good to take a look at the one locally so you can see how the neck is. 

The eBay listing for the Eastman is no longer there. The seller of the 1962 Calace is Schlegel who posts here a fair amount  and who is an aficionado of Italian bowlbacks. I have a feeling that it is a nice one and if you have your heart set on a Calace and the local one does not meet your needs, that one might be a good bet.

----------


## Jim Garber

As for the ostensible No.4 Embergher... I checked with Ralf and he had seen same one some time ago being sold by a German dealer. The label does not belong with that mandolin and he thought that the mandolin was not made by the Embergher workshop-- there are no signatures inside the body (mine has Luigi's signature on a rib inside the bowl) and there are other subtleties that would indicate that it was not of the workshop. Those inlays esp the inlaid ivory looked wrong to me as well. However he said, it was one of the best copies he has seen and could be an excellent player at a reasonable price but as far as an authentic Embergher was not a style 4 or even by that maker.

----------


## brunello97

That's quite a story, Jim. It certainly is a good looking copy, if Ralf's estimate is correct. Makes me think of all these fake-Gibson threads that pop up here now and then.  If you could make something that good looking, why not go into business for yourself?  Certainly, a number of the custom F5 makers sell their mandolins for a higher price than non-Loar Gibsons fetch.  Did Ralf have any idea when this might have been from?

I've always been fascinated with stories of art forgeries, etc.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I don't think that the original maker put that label in there. I think it was that original dealer (not the seller on eBay) who did.  That dealer evidently had a real 1912 Embergher  in basket-case shape and figured it was a way to jack up the price. i don't think Ralf knew who the original maker was.

----------


## brunello97

> I don't think that the original maker put that label in there. I think it was that original dealer (not the seller on eBay) who did.  That dealer evidently had a real 1912 Embergher  in basket-case shape and figured it was a way to jack up the price. i don't think Ralf knew who the original maker was.


Ah, the plot thickens.  I'd like to imagine it was someone in Catania, showing off.

Mick

----------


## Tavy

Here's one that's just gone for silly money - is this genuine?  Are these really that valuable?  It's by Giovanni Battista Maldura.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Tavy and all,

Yes, this is genuine; these belong to the best ever made.


Best, 

Alex.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here's one that's just gone for silly money - is this genuine?  Are these really that valuable?  It's by Giovanni Battista Maldura.


Interesting bridge. I know I have seem one like it on another Italian mandolin.

Alex: I know that you have a Maldura mandolin. How does it compare to Emberghers of the same grade?

----------


## billkilpatrick



----------


## Jim Garber

Yet another Calace mandolyra. I wonder what this seller is expecting to get for it. I would think they could provide better photos, tho.

----------


## brunello97

For all my professed eclecticism, I have never thought these anything but weird.  Must be easy to play up the neck, though.

Bill, is that an early "G. Puglisi Reale" with stars-of-david resonators?

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

b'oh - photo was taken from the ensemble micrologus FB page: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000498038251 don't suppose we'll ever know if the painter went a little ott with the decoration or if he was painting from life .. but it COULD've been an early-early mandolin

----------


## Jim Garber

> For all my professed eclecticism, I have never thought these anything but weird.  Must be easy to play up the neck, though.


You must wear your protective eyewear when playing one.

----------


## billkilpatrick

> For all my professed eclecticism, I have never thought these anything but weird.  Must be easy to play up the neck, though. ... Mick


eye protection and snake handler's gloves - peg board looks like a cobra

----------


## Jim Garber

Music Treasures has some interesting mandolins for sale.

----------


## billkilpatrick

ain't they gorgeous - particularly the early mandolins with wooden pegs

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Music Treasures has some interesting mandolins for sale.


That's the collection that they've been trying to sell for several years now, isn't it?  I see that the fancy Ceccherini has sold -- I wonder how close to the asking price of $8000 they got?  While there are some very attractive mandolins, some of it is dross, and most prices are in fantasy land.  I would say that the best deal on that page is the Loveri, assuming it's as good condition as it looks -- I've had one pass through my hands (bought for another ensemble member who left soon after, taking the mandoling with him) and it was a really nice instrument.  Looked identical to this one, except that I think the tailpiece and tuners on the one at Music Treasures are non-original.  $500 is an OK price, and I suspect after this many years of trying to sell the collection, they will be open to lower offers.  Photos and discussion of the Loveri I (briefly) handled a few years ago are here:

Link

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

I certainly agree with you, Martin. I am not 100% sure if everything in the collection is now for sale and I have certainly seen the ones near the bottom of the page at Fred Oster's site. Roger never does seem to lower his prices or his expectations. 

I just thought it is a collection worth looking at and discussing. I wish i could actually inspect and play in person. I think some may still be on Fred's list.

----------


## Eugene

I've been corresponding with that shop since its inception.  Some of the things they do and say are still silly (like offering a Neapolitan mandolin that they still claim was built in 1665).

----------


## etbarbaric

> I've been corresponding with that shop since its inception.  Some of the things they do and say are still silly (like offering a Neapolitan mandolin that they still claim was built in 1665).


Yes, exactly... or the "Vinaccio"... that is described in great detail, with nothing said of it being a drastically modified mandolino Genovese.  

Just be sure of what it is that you're buying.

Good to see your keyclicks Eugene.

Best,

Eric

----------


## Eugene

Yeah, silly.  ...And good to "see" you too, Eric.

----------


## barrykbrewer

Any HELP or info would be greatly appreciated. I just found my grandfathers old Ditson Empire bowl back mandolin, pretty rough shape, but Im going to keep and restore it. I have researched a little, but cannot find any pics like mine. It has in large letters FLYING A with what looks ike military wings! Missing a few pieces and chipped fret, but I would love to play this someday. 
Ive looked at 50 pics but none with Flying A on front. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Barry

----------


## Eugene

Ditson commissioned their house brand from several makers.  Can you post a few images, Barry?  Be warned, none of them were exceedingly valuable, so a substantial restoration is likely to cost you more than the end result will be worth.  Still, if your intent is not resale but to preserve, honor, and play an heirloom, it can be worth it to you.

----------


## brunello97

Barry, it would be great if you could post some pictures of your mandolin. That would help a lot. Maybe the "Flying A" is some type of custom work done on the basic model. Given that, as Eugene has noted, I have seen a range of "Empire" mandolins some having been made by CF Martin for Ditson.  As you probably found out in your 50 images, they had a series "Conquest" "Empire" and "Victory", a curious collection of names, apparently in honor of the US victory in the Spanish-American war and the beginning of our ill-fated tenure as a colonial power. 

BTW I have a lovely Ditson Empire bowlback (probably Vega made) that by coincidence was just playing this evening.  It is a real pleasure.  I'd love to see yours.

Mick

----------


## Tavy

Here's an interesting one, just spotted this as the main photo in an eBay add (no link I won't dignify it!):



Must be the most entertaining add I've seen all year....  :Wink:

----------


## billkilpatrick

looks like the ghost of mandolin past - haunting melodies?

----------


## Jim Garber

Ah, one of those fluttering butterfly mandolins. It is amazing that those genius Neapolitan luthiers were able to create early animations on their scratchplates.

----------


## Tavy

> Ah, one of those fluttering butterfly mandolins. It is amazing that those genius Neapolitan luthiers were able to create early animations on their scratchplates.


Ah, makes perfect sense now - and there I was thinking it was built in vibrato  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## brunello97

Keeping up with the eccentrics, here is a Joseph Bohmann with some typically exuberant MOP.  There appear to be Handel tuners as well.  Looks to be in un poco sketchioso condition, thought.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Joseph-Bohma...ht_3880wt_1252

Mostly I am posting this because I'm still trying to figure out how to provide an alias for the lengthy url addresses. Feeling pretty dopey about it all….

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

Try using a word, like 'link' as the link, highlighting that and click on the link icon in the advanced message writing window (in the middle row, to the left of the envelope image) and a window will pop up where t you can paste in the URL

Ebay link

attached pic of the icons with the appropriate one circled in red


cheers

g




> Keeping up with the eccentrics, here is a Joseph Bohmann with some typically exuberant MOP.  There appear to be Handel tuners as well.  Looks to be in un poco sketchioso condition, thought.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Joseph-Bohma...ht_3880wt_1252
> 
> Mostly I am posting this because I'm still trying to figure out how to provide an alias for the lengthy url addresses. Feeling pretty dopey about it all.
> 
> Mick

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Graham, I'll give this a try.

Bohmann

for example.

Mick

edit:  There you go. Seems to work. Thanks!

----------


## Tavy

Here's an interesting modern bowlback just sold on eBay UK.  Made by Erich Wander who seems to be well known for his guitars, but I couldn't find much info on his mandolins?

----------


## Schlegel

Thought I'd preserve a pic of this Ebay auction- an ornate 20's design by Giovanni Montaldi:

----------


## brunello97

John, I had been tracking der Wanderer myself, hoping that we might learn something more about him, maybe from Martin or Alex or one of our northern friends.

Schlegel, that is an exuberant Montaldi.  Nice to have it in the thread. The other examples of his work that I have in my files are much more 'traditional' in a Vinaccian style.

Mick

----------


## Eugene

That Montaldi has been available from the Music-Treasures collection for years, at least since 2003.

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## brunello97

> That Montaldi has been available from the Music-Treasures collection for years, at least since 2003.


I have a hunch it isn't going anywhere fast.. Between you and me, it's pretty ghastly. 

Mick

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## JeffD

Acquired from a woman who attended one of my Civil War concerts and was so moved by my rendition of Lorena that she wanted me to have her deceased husband's mandolin, which hasn't been played in the many years since he passed.

Eastern European am thinking, judging from the woman's accent, but I am not sure.

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## Jim Garber

Jeff: that bird is a common scratchplate motif. It looks old, maybe Italian, possibly from Catania, Sicily. Isn't that nice when these things happen -- a wonderful way to acquire an instrument with meaning.

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## JeffD

Without a story they are just hunks of wood. Hunks of wood that can sing, sure, but hunks of wood nonethelss.

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## brunello97

The vibe seems Catanese, but the squarish oval sound hole and headstock down look that obvious.  The bird is a common theme for Sicilian scratch plates but, Jeff, the white-on-brown motif is exceptionally charming even if it is "less fancy" - (whatever that means.) Looks like sgraffito technique from ceramics.  

Mick

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## JeffD

[QUOTE]


> the white-on-brown motif is exceptionally charming even if it is "less fancy"


I agree. I love it.




> Looks like sgraffito technique from ceramics.


 Yea, I didn't know that was the word for it, but yes, a friend of mine does that with ceramic placques, scratching through the outer darker layer to make a sort of enhanced line drawing.

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## brunello97

Something new (to me, at least) and for other fans of Giuseppe Pugilisi:

Giuseppe Puglisi

This label, a version of another label from him, has an address for a shop on Via Grotte Bianchi in Catania.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Mick: Could this be an earlier version of what became Puglisi Reale?

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## brunello97

> Mick: Could this be an earlier version of what became Puglisi Reale?


Pretty sure it's the same guy. I have some labels that read "GPuglisi Reale e Figli" so I think it was a family continuum.  I have a number of Giuseppe P's mandolins in my files, but this is a different street address from the examples I have. 

I know it is a bit wonkish, but I do enjoy finding the street addresses of these old shops as a lot of times the buildings still exist on site, unlike here where our cities turn over buildings so much faster.  I need to check through my examples of the 'newer' colored Puglisi Reale labels to see if there was an address for that iconic stabilimento that is illustrated.  I don't recall seeing one, but they changed that label a number of times and I might have missed it.

Mick

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## KristinEliza

Yesterday I visited my repairman to get a new bridge and nut made for my Calace.  He had recently acquired a Waldo bowlback that he thought I might be interested in.  Same old story...an older lady thought he might like it...it was her late husband's...so she gave it to him.  There is a label inside, but I didn't get a very good look at it through the F-holes.

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## Eugene

Yikes!

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## Jim Garber

I just sent the link to that to Paul Ruppa who has been researching about Waldo instruments. That is the most ornate Waldo I have seen.

The biggest problem with those is the area on the top between the f-holes -- more often than not it is warped.

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## KristinEliza

I think the most difficult part of the restore will be the ornamentation.  Structure wise, there are several cracks in the top, and a few open seams between the ribs on the bowl and a few open seams on the top...but lots of missing ornamentation.  He's not to sure what to do with the inlay surrounding the top plate.  There didn't look to be any (if so, very minimal) warping between the f-holes.

I'm most interested in seeing what happens if he needs to take the top off...how do you do that with that fingerboard????

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## Tavy

Holy Mother of Pearl Batman!

That's some instrument, strangely I kind of like it in a totally over the top kind of way  :Wink: 

Kristin: I've had the top off a bowlback with an all MOP fingerboard - the procedure is the same for a regular bowlback - remove and cut through at the 10th fret, then remove the top complete with the lower part of the fretboard.  The problem is that once it's all reassembled you can't re-level the fretboard - in my case the MOP was too thin to risk sanding level, in his case the MOP is engraved which you would need to preserve.  So you just have to get things as level as you can, and then do all the leveling in the frets.  A much bigger issue for that one would be all the decoration around the bowl edge.

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## brunello97

> ...That is the most ornate Waldo I have seen..


I should know better than to quote my friends out of context but... :Wink: 

I wonder if that came out of the Saginaw shop or all the decorative embellishment was out-sourced to an ur-Tsai figure.  Actually, that's not a fair comparison.  This is exponentially nicer.

So turnabout is fair play: "My Waldo was warped, too." You can quote me on that.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I have had a few email conversations on the topic with Mr. Ruppa. In fact, I alerted him about this Waldo at Bernunzio's which he promptly bought. He said that was one of the few that is playable and was actually most ornamented until Kristin's luthier's one showed up. 

Mine, tho nice is not playable either, unless I want to put some work/$$$ into it. I wonder if there is some method to put a reinforcement under that pickguard without having to remove the top. I would think that you could get some small, angled clamps to work a small x-brace under there. Any ideas, Mick or John?

What is also interesting about these Waldo's is that almost everyone that we have seen is different.

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## Ruppa

What an ornate instrument. I would like to find out if more pictures are available. It would also be very interesting to find out something about the provenance of this mando. This is not a garden variety Waldo. With that remarkable Rococco-style inlay, it may have been made for someone important in the company or at least someone willing to pay for the extra labor and artistry. Using the posted photos, I tried counting the ribs on the bowl and my best guess so far is that there are over 50. Impressive.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting those pix. Paul

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## brunello97

Jim, where is the warp on yours occuring?  How bad is it?  On the one you posted from Bernunzio's there remains a small tab of wood which in effect segments the F hole.  That was either missing or omitted on mine and the intrados-es (don't know what else to call them) at both top and bottom of the treble side were both warped, one in and one out.

I'm sure you could fit some kind of brace under there but my fear is that it would have to be pretty deep or pretty stiff in order to hold that deflection out at the 'floating' end of both the brace and the 'flap' of the top. (I'm waving my hands around trying to explain this right now.)  

If you are missing that tab (and if was up to me) I would try to cut a brace to span the f-hole void.  The brace could be shaped so that the piece spanning the void would be flush with the top in a sense recreating that original tab that was left in the top but being much stronger due to the depth of the brace.  You could probably glue it up with just one C-clamp snaked into the f-hole.

I sold my Waldo to a fellow out west who was also way into them.  Maybe not as much as Paul.   I enjoy seeing  those old Waldo ads.  Isn't there a dedicated Waldo thread? I'll try to track it down and link these two together.  Great stuff.

Mick

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## KristinEliza

> What an ornate instrument. I would like to find out if more pictures are available. It would also be very interesting to find out something about the provenance of this mando. This is not a garden variety Waldo. With that remarkable Rococco-style inlay, it may have been made for someone important in the company or at least someone willing to pay for the extra labor and artistry. Using the posted photos, I tried counting the ribs on the bowl and my best guess so far is that there are over 50. Impressive.
> 
> Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting those pix. Paul


I'll see if I can get some more information for you.

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## Jim Garber

For those interested... Mick linked to this one to an older Waldo thread. We might as well cross-link.

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## KristinEliza

If I get more info to share...I'll post in the Waldo thread.

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## Graham McDonald

One of the interesting things about the Waldos is that the ones with lots of ribs often seemed to use even numbers of ribs. The simpler/cheaper ones like Jim's with seven ribs used odd numbers (and even then of quite unusual shape) which was standard for Neapolitan builders. Even number of ribs was used by the Roman builders like Embergher, but I don't know if that was an idea he got from Maldura or it was an earlier convention. In any case the Waldo mandolin/guitar production was run by a Swedish builder, so I don't know where he got his aesthetic ideas, but they were a distinctive look.

cheers

g

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## Tavy

> Mine, tho nice is not playable either, unless I want to put some work/$$$ into it. I wonder if there is some method to put a reinforcement under that pickguard without having to remove the top. I would think that you could get some small, angled clamps to work a small x-brace under there. Any ideas, Mick or John?


Why is it not playable?  Sinking top?

You can fix warps in tops by clamping a damp cloth and a form to the underside of the top, I use these small clamps for tight spots like that.  Whether adding braces would help much long term is debatable - what braces are under the top at present?  I'm guessing nothing much given the sound hole design?

In theory something simple like this should be enough:



But I'm guessing that's what's there already and has failed?

Something like this would be stronger:



But you'd never get the X through those sound holes.

Or if you can get the top pushed back into shape, you could also just try adding some longitudinal strips to discourage further distortion:



Assuming the cross braces are already there, this would be easy to do through those sound holes.

Of course none of the above will correct a bad neck angle if that's the issue...

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## Jim Garber

John: Thanks for your suggestions. I will have to take some better photos of mine and post them. I would think # 2 or #3 alternatives would make the most sense. 

Graham: Who was the maker and what was his background? AFAIK the only Swedish maker of mandolins around that time would have been Levin.

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## brunello97

Graham, do you mean that the fellow who ran the Waldo shop (in Saginaw) was Swedish?

Mick

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## Graham McDonald

> Graham, do you mean that the fellow who ran the Waldo shop (in Saginaw) was Swedish?
> 
> Mick


Trawling through every mention of Waldo in the Music Trade Review and with the generous assistance of Paul Ruppa, I think I have put together a fairly accurate picture of the JF Barrows Music Co and the Waldo line of instruments.

J.F.Barrows had moved to Saginaw in 1888, opened a music shop and was selling Waldo labeled mandolins by 1891. In 1894 he sold shares to finance a factory which, according to an article in the Music Trade Review that year, was to build Waldo banjos (or banjeaux, as they charmingly called them) of various styles with Victor Kraske in charge of production and probably George Bostwick as general manager. In 1895 they hired Rudolf Loräng, a Swedish guitar and mandolin builder, and announced that from then on their entire range of instruments were going to be made in the Saginaw factory. This does suggest that prior to this the guitars and mandolins may have been  made elsewhere and simply sold with a Waldo label. Barrows closed his retail store in 1901 and the name of the company was changed to the Waldo Manufacturing Co., with George Bostwick as manager. It would seem that they went out of business by 1905, through they do appear in that famous Gibson 'new broom sweeping away the old fashioned bowlbacks' ad in The Cadenza(?) of 1908.

Loräng's name comes up in the patent application for the 1897 patent application for the f-hole mandolin, along with Bostick and Kraske and before that was mentioned in a news item in the Music Trade Review from 1895 as having just been given the job at the factory to oversee the guitar and mandolin line. I have no idea where he got his training, but there is a different aesthetic at work in the mandolin line.

cheers

graham

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## Jim Garber

of course the main question (aside from Where's Waldo?) is wherefore Waldo? None of those names have anything to do with Waldo, unless there is a middle name or the name of a kid or dog.

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## brunello97

Great stuff on Waldo. Thanks, Graham (and Paul.)  In looking after some of this I found some reference to Waldo labeled banjos being built by one JB Schall in Chicago for the Barrows Company.  This may be some of the work that prefaces the Loräng era announcement that you spoke about when work was consolidated in Saginaw.  

Jim, this conversation about Waldo banjos references a James H. Waldo Mfg. Co. also operating during this period in Saginaw.

Waldo Banjo


implying some type of relationship between Schall, Barrows and Waldo.

I ought to make a ride up to Saginaw sometime, it isn't all that far away.  We've been getting whitefish, herring and smoked catfish from some fisherman from up there who bring it to the market here. I've eaten a Jesus parable of catfish in my life but never had it smoke until from these folks. Good.

Mick

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## Graham McDonald

The bloke from NZ is a little confused, I think. Waldo was Barrows' label, the house brand of the JF Barrows Music Co,but there is not much info on how much Barrows was actually involved in the building of them. He sold shares in 1894 to finance the factory and left Sawinaw in 1901 after closing his retail store and the name change of the company to Waldo Manufacturing, so presumably (?) sold out his interest to the other shareholders who could well have included Bostwick and Kreske, the man in charge of _banjeaux_ manufacture. Paul Ruppa has found evidence of Waldo labeled mandolins in 1891, several years before the factory was built so there would be reason to expect Waldo banjeaux were built elsewhere as well.

Why Waldo, I suspect we will never know. Maybe there is some kind person in Cleveland could try to track down any descendants of Barrows still there and ask.

cheers

graham





> Great stuff on Waldo. Thanks, Graham (and Paul.)  In looking after some of this I found some reference to Waldo labeled banjos being built by one JB Schall in Chicago for the Barrows Company.  This may be some of the work that prefaces the Loräng era announcement that you spoke about when work was consolidated in Saginaw.  
> 
> Jim, this conversation about Waldo banjos references a James H. Waldo Mfg. Co. also operating during this period in Saginaw.
> 
> Waldo Banjo
> 
> 
> implying some type of relationship between Schall, Barrows and Waldo.
> 
> ...

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## Graham McDonald

Some more info which might illuminate, or just muddy the waters  :Grin: 

from http://www.billsbanjos.com/geneology.htm
J.B. Schall (1878-1907)was a Chicago banjo maker who made many Schall-marked banjos and banjos marked with the names of noted performers and teachers, such as Denzel.  Schall also made many unmarked banjos and sold parts to other makers.  Some banjos marked Waldo, a performer whose banjos have been reported to have been made by the Burroughs Company located in Saginaw, MI, appear to have been made by Schall, or at least using Schall parts.  I have seen other Waldo banjos that looked to be made by Buckbee.

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## brunello97

Yeah, Graham, that was the site I found that connected some Waldo production to Chicago (presumably before the Swedish fellow took over as you suggest.)   Billsbanjos seems to imply that the Waldo banjo was named after a performer named "Waldo".  Maybe the name just stuck, but that seems all so sketchioso.  If there may have been a James H. Waldo company operating in Saginaw it ought to be something easy enough to find out up there.  That place was a boom town around that time.  I couldn't find any other mention of it which makes me skeptical given that quite a bit about Barrows/Waldo is already in the public domain.

Lots of random bits of good and bad information floating around there.  Saginaw does have a historical society that appears located in one of those grand old lumber baron homes.  A visit is in order. 

Mick

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## Ruppa

James H Waldo? I researched that theory from a few different angles - census, street directories, Ancestry.com, newspaper archives and found nothing to support that claim. I am still trying to find out "Why Waldo?" 

Graham's info was very good. In fact, yesterday I came up with proof that Waldo was out of business in Spring of 1905.

There were two prominent department foremen at the Waldo factory, Victor Kraske and Rudolf(ph) Lorang. Lorang (nee Loräng) was the head of mando production and Kraske was in charge of banjos. I don't know how much overlap of duties there were. 

Generally, I find the ornamentation on fancy Waldo's a bit lavish but not extravagant. The one that started this thread is unique as far as I know.

Bracing on the faces of Waldos varied. The original patent design was more like a guideline than a rule. On some, there are continuous horizontal braces above and below the f-holes, longitudinal center-line bracing with breaks and wedge-shaped cleats (?) supporting the narrow parts of the "F." 

On some Waldos, they scrapped the horizontal pieces and just put 3 continuous fan braces under the face - these brace ends are close together under the fingerboard, widely spaced near the tailpiece. The fan-bracing seemed to have a somewhat positive effect in reducing the warps at the finger-board end of the sound holes. I think that the Waldo designers had a feeling that the f-holes presented a warping potential, but they did not have a good solution.

Thanks to Kristineliza for offering to check for more info on the (if I may) WOW-ldo.

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## brunello97

Thanks, Paul.  Our library is (supposedly) has access to 1895-1901 Sanborn fire insurance maps from Saginaw.  I'll see if I can find out how to get the on-line password. Not much help in understanding the bracing systems but may some information on location of Barrows/Waldo works.

Mick

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## brunello97

Paul, do you have an address for the Waldo shop in Saginaw?  I have access to the Sanborn maps from 1901 and wonder if I can find something.   

Actually, the 1905 date you have may be a bit more complex.  I found some records from the Michigan Bureau of Labor and Statistics which lists when business were inspected, number of employees etc. Barrows is listed in the 1896 edition "running full time" in the manufacture of banjos, guitars and mandolins, but with only 12 employees.  In 1904 Waldo was visited in April and tallied 44 employees.  The next volume I was able to find on line (still looking) was 1909 and Waldo is still listed, with the inspection dated Dec. 5,  however now with only 5 employees.  Gibson was also inspected in '09 with a total of 21 employees.  

These books are fascinating in that they also list all reported industrial accidents, their nature, cause and duration of convalescence. So far I've found nothing from instrument fabrication.

I've never been much of a history buff, but I find all this kind of fun and fascinating.

Mick

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## Ruppa

Mick, Thanks for the Waldo questions - 

>>*Paul, do you have an address for the Waldo shop in Saginaw?* 

Addresses:

The corner of Franklin and Tuscola  216 Tuscola, Saginaw (prking lot, across the street from the Temple theatre.)

1357 N Niagara, Saginaw (now a Waste Mgmt co, New building.)

>>*Actually, the 1905 date you have* [for the closing of Waldo Mfg] *may be a bit more complex.* 

In order to find a Waldo end date, I was tracking Waldo ads in 1905 and earlier Crescendo and Cadenza magazines. Ads for Waldos hinted at a big sale in the first quarter of 1905. No Waldo ads appeared after May. 

I then found a newspaper article that cited 8 July 1905 as the date that _the said trustees have determined that it is for the best interests of the creditors, and being empowered by said mortgage to sell and dispose of all the assets of the said Waldo Manufacturing company, at public auction. . . the property covered by said mortgage and to be sold as aforesaid consists of stock in trade goods, wares, merchandise, machinery books of accounts and accounts contained therein. . .and everything owned by the Waldo Manufacturing company_.

I found an article from 21 March 1905 that reported a company making piano stools and benches had rented space from Waldo Manufacturing. 

I suspect in order to keep up appearances, and this is an assumption, that the folks who bought the Waldo instrument inventory also bought the company name. It may have simplified things while they sold their stock. Plus, Waldo offered a lifetime guarantee for their instruments, it says so on the labels. As long as sales were being made, there probably was an advantage to keeping the company name on the books. A product guarantee carries more weight if the guarantor is still in business.

Regarding the *James H. Waldo* reference from our friend in New Zealand. On 1 April 1905, in order to demonstrate the worldwide appeal of Saginaw products, a Saginaw newspaper reported the sale of an expensive Waldo mandolin to a gentleman in Auckland, NZ. Heres holding out hope that he knows something about the Waldo company that we dont.

Do you still need a better explanation about the Waldo soundboard bracing? - Paul

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## brunello97

Thanks, Paul, that is interesting information.  I was able to find the Franklin/Tuscola building on a 1901 Sanborn map (which I guess you have found, but I'll attach here.)  (In the 1935 Sanborn map it details that the building is being used to manufacture women's corsets.  Probably another business nearing the end of the line.) Nothing on the 1901 map at N. Niagara, and nothing on the '35 map as I can tell.  But that area looks like it was large logging sites and later a range of industrial facilities so buildings may have come and gone quicker.

The Waldo Co. must have fallen on hard times fast.  Graham sent some blurbs from the MTR which boast of large orders (1000 mandolins in of June 1904) following on 5200 mandolins in 1901.  It is hard to know how much of this is true--or actually panned out--(where are all those Waldos?) but something certainly happened between '04-'05.

What you describe about the rump company post '05 makes sense. The library here has the Labor/Factory inspection reports for the '05-'09 period, I'll look through them to see if Waldo continued to be inspected (for mandolins or stools.)

I think I've got an understanding of Waldo under the hood thanks to your diagrams and from poking around the couple that I have had.  Mine was more of a rhetorical question viz my interest in the old factories as much as the instruments (almost.) The architect in me.  If anything interesting turns up from the reports, I'll report.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I love this research collaboration here. Keep up the good work, guys. I wish I could help but I have stupid work to do. Oh well. Back to the NaCl mines.

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## brunello97

Good thing nobody is looking over my shoulder this afternoon, Jim..

The search function on the Hathi/Google scans is a bit sketchioso but I did find that the Saginaw Waldo Mfg. Co. was listed with 2 employees in '06, 1 in '07 and then back up to 5 in '09.  The Saginaw version of Waldo Mfg. disappears in '10 only to reappear in Detroit in '10 and then in '11 to be listed as the Sprague-Waldo Mfg. Co. and eventually the Miller-Sprague-Waldo Mfg. Co., makers of automobile lamps. We may have a different Waldo here. 

The number of mandolin orders that MTR suggests is stunning if true.  100 mandolins a week (for 52 weeks) is substantial amount of work. Hyperbole?

Mick

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## zoukboy

Is this too far off topic?

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## Schlegel

Bowl+frets (even if tied) = correct family of instruments, IMHO.

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## Jim Garber

> Is this too far off topic?


Nah, that is fine IMHO. I agree with Schlegel.

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## Tavy

> Is this too far off topic?


Nope, looks a lovely instrument to me: can you tell us something about it?

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## vkioulaphides

Having just gotten back from this instrument's birthplace, Crete, I can tell you it is a Greek laouto. Its owner, of course, can say more on this specific instrument. For me, this us just another fantasy ;-)

Cheers,

Victor

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## zoukboy

Victor is correct!  It's a Kritiki laouto made in Athens by Dimitris Rapakousios. The bowl is rosewood and mahogany. Spruce top. I tune mine a little eccentrically, with the highest course tuned down from E4 to D4 and doubled an octave lower at D3.

So the tuning is, from "bass" to treble:  G2G3  D2D3  A2A3  D3D4

The body is quite deep to support the low tuning. The sound is huge and it is much fun to play.

I can't recommend Dimitris and his instruments highly enough. Absolutely first rate craftsmanship and sound and he is great to work with (NFI by way).

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## zoukboy

Victor - I am jealous you just got back from Kriti. It's been 9 years since I was there and I miss it almost every day!

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## zoukboy

Dimitris also makes mandolins. I'm receiving this one for a student next week and will give a report.

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## Jim Garber

Here is his website: Dimitris Rapakousios

Roger: I am esp interested in custom cases byGiannis Seremetis. Have you seen any of them? Any idea of cost?

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## Tavy

> Dimitris also makes mandolins. I'm receiving this one for a student next week and will give a report


Interesting - are those tied on frets?

IMO there aren't enough of them either  :Wink:

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## Jim Garber

For anyone looking for a decent vintage bowlback this style 2 Vega might be a good bet. I have a style 3 that is one of my best sounding ones. If there are any serious issues with this style 2, the seller offers 100% satisfaction guarantee. NFI on my part as always.

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## Tavy

Here's one that's as nutty as a squirrels food store:

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## Jim Garber

> Here's one that's as nutty as a squirrels food store


Might be worth the bid if low enough for those bone button tuners. Otherwise...?? I do like the eccentric scratchplate shape, tho.

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## zoukboy

Jim: have seen a few and they are sturdy. No idea of the cost, though.

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## zoukboy

Yes. Black nylon monofilament. It really makes for a sweet sound.

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## Jim Garber

I have only seen a handful of Stathopoulo's bowlback instruments.  Here is a bouzouki up for auction. Too bad that rosette is broken. It looks like it may need a some restoration work and the seller says it was over-finished, looks like that included the fretboard. I would not be surprised if the neck either had warpage or needed a reset (or both).


I just looked at the post and at the additional photo below and the neck definitely needs a reset -- the seller says height in the middle of the fretboard is 1/4". It also looks like the neck joint might have been messed with previously. This will need considerable work. Then again it is a rare instrument. Many of his often have multi-ply laminated necks but this one looks like one piece.

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## Tavy

> I have only seen a handful of Stathopoulo's bowlback instruments.  Here is a bouzouki up for auction. Too bad that rosette is broken. It looks like it may need a some restoration work and the seller says it was over-finished, looks like that included the fretboard. I would not be surprised if the neck either had warpage or needed a reset (or both).


With a neck that long on a std bowlback body, I'm not surprised the whole thing has pulled forward!

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## Tavy

Nice looking ceccherini 10 string bowl on ebay UK:

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## Tavy

Same seller (is this the cafe's own trebbleclef??) also has an A Savlino "Student of Vinaccia" bowl for sale:

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## brunello97

Probably a typo in the listing:  A Salvino.  I always enjoy that 'twisted' MOP inlay design around the sound hole.

Here's a pretty clean photo of a Salvino label.

Mick

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## Bruce Clausen

A nice pair of mandolins. I can't remember ever seeing this English-language label in a Ceccherini. (But the same UK agent we're used to, A. Voigt.) I wonder if it tells us anything about the instrument's date.

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## brunello97

> A nice pair of mandolins. I can't remember ever seeing this English-language label in a Ceccherini. (But the same UK agent we're used to, A. Voigt.) I wonder if it tells us anything about the instrument's date.


Bruce, I have a number of Ceccherini mandolins in my files with whole or part English label language. Alban Voigt appears as agent on them as well.  Unfortunately, I don't have a clean shot of any of those labels.  

Maybe Jim or Martin have better images. Or the OP can post a ideal shot.

Mick

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## Bruce Clausen

Thanks, Mick.  I've only seen the label in your second shot.  Interesting that some have numbers, others not.  (For the record, the ebay one has 2292.)

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## Jim Garber

I did have a few examples of that same label. Here is one from a rather ornate mandolin.

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## brunello97

Thanks, Jim, it is nice to get a complete view of this.  I must say I enjoy these labels with their various signatures, stamps, embossings, numberings, stray marks, cross-outs, and additions. 

Mick

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## Tavy

Looks like it's "Vinaccia student week", all from the same seller:

An Angarga and D'Isanto:



and a Maretea:

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice looking 1905 Fratelli Vinaccia on eBay. Lyre tailpiece. Looks in decent condition with some split in the bowl and piece broken off the end of the bridge.

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## brunello97

> Nice looking 1905 Fratelli Vinaccia on eBay. Lyre tailpiece. Looks in decent condition with some split in the bowl and piece broken off the end of the bridge.


Jim, what do you think about the 13-7/8" scale length the seller refers to?  How common was this?

Mick

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## Graham McDonald

> Jim, what do you think about the 13-7/8" scale length the seller refers to?  How common was this?
> 
> Mick


I would suggest that it was so rare as to be almost unknown and the seller should perhaps measure from the nut to the 12th fret, which will almost certainly be 6.5" (or thereabouts). Mandolins had been around 13"/33cm since the middle of the 18th century (rarely shorter than 32cm) and this sound like an error on the seller's part unless the Vinaccias were experimenting with the new-fangled American ideas of Gibson. Do I remember back a year or so ago a short thread from someone in Switzerland who had inherited some instruments...

Hope yer all not too wet up there  :Grin: 

graham

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## Jim Garber

I just asked him that same question, Graham before reading your post.

----------


## Jim Garber

Ian has another nice looking Ceccherini in need of some restoration on eBay right now.

----------


## Jim Garber

I heard from the seller and she (?) said: I measured from the nut to the 12th fret... its 6 1/2"

Standard length.

----------


## Martucci

> Jim, what do you think about the 13-7/8" scale length the seller refers to?  How common was this?
> 
> Mick


Don't know how common it is but my Martucci #2 (the maple bowl) which is just about complete is 13-7/8".  The new fretboard matches the original and both are right on at that scale.  When compared to Martcucci #1 (the butterfly) which has a scale length of 13-1/8" it is obvious that the top bend is closer to the tail even though the bowls are almost identical.  Martucci #3 (the scalloped bowl which I recently purchased) is right in between at 13-1/2".  I guess the location of the top bend and resulting bridge placement is a variable that works its self out when the top is matched to the bowl.

Fred

----------


## brunello97

Here is something one doesn't see often enough.  Graupner and Meyer mandola scale bowlback

G+M Bowldola

which but for the top crack looks to be in quite good condition.  The seller references its recent trip to Elderly but doesn't reference a repair to the crack.  Not an entirely unreasonable price.

Mick

----------


## Tavy

> Here is something one doesn't see often enough.  Graupner and Meyer mandola scale bowlback
> 
> G+M Bowldola
> 
> which but for the top crack looks to be in quite good condition.  The seller references its recent trip to Elderly but doesn't reference a repair to the crack.  Not an entirely unreasonable price.
> 
> Mick


Always hard to tell from photos but the crack looks to be an old repair?

Also a 17.5" scale would have made this an octave mandolin back in the day I guess?  You would probably get better sound from it strung as a 'dola though...

----------


## Eugene

Intriguing.  The decor is more tasteful and more neatly executed than I generally expect of the era.

----------


## dave17120

> Acquired from a woman who attended one of my Civil War concerts and was so moved by my rendition of Lorena that she wanted me to have her deceased husband's mandolin, which hasn't been played in the many years since he passed.
> 
> Eastern European am thinking, judging from the woman's accent, but I am not sure.


From the general style of the instrument, shape of sound hole, style of clasp, head shape, edging etc I'd say that was undoubdtedly German. If its still of any interest. Dave

----------


## Schlegel

> Always hard to tell from photos but the crack looks to be an old repair?
> 
> Also a 17.5" scale would have made this an octave mandolin back in the day I guess?  You would probably get better sound from it strung as a 'dola though...


I thought very hard about trying for this one- I had the same model once in mandolin size, and it was very nice sounding, comparable to Martin or Vega. Only sold it because the neck was just too narrow for me, so you can see why I found the mandola tempting.

----------


## delsbrother

> Lookig at this Winder mandolin, I would say that its details are so close to standard Demeglios #that it was prob made by Demeglio under Winder's name. Even the stamp near the tensioner which I thought would say "sistema" mimics the Demeglio one.
> 
> Too bad the top is in bad shape -- that wicked warp -- tho I imagine that given the fanciness of this one, it may be worth the money it would cost to restore.
> 
> Jon or Martin... one of you should go for this one. 
> Jim


This ebay auction might be of interest to Winder Mandolin fans - some great pictures in this (very affordable) vintage article.

----------


## brunello97

Nice link! It looks like a very interesting article. 

Unfortunately, the actually images from the earlier Winder conversation are lost along with their ebay ads.  If Jim or Martin have copies of those, it would be great to see them here. I'll post the other pages from the Winder ad for posterity in case no one from the MC winds up with it.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Your wish is my command, Sire...

----------

Jim Nollman

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Jim.  That Winder doesn't look much like the examples shown in the article DelBro posted unless he was trying very hard to go DeMeglioid. But a very fancy DeM in any respect, if that. (This one has the same treble top-bubble as the one I recently have been working on.)  That 'tortoise-shell' neck and headstock veneer is nice.  Would like to find out more about JGW.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Yes, alas, too many turtles gave their lives for that one.

----------


## delsbrother

I especially love the picture of the finishing table (next to the large window for daylight).

----------


## brunello97

> Yes, alas, too many turtles gave their lives for that one.


Probably rustled up a lot of mock-turtle soup from that herd.

DelBro, I was enjoying that picture as well.  Looks like Mr. Winder raided his wife's supply of perfume and lotions for that array of mixing bottles he has there...

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

I have it on my watch list and should be putting a bid in tomorrow before the deadline. Seems a bit silly for more than one of us to be bidding on it. I would be happy to scan and supply a pdf to anyone else interested if I win it.

cheers

g




> Nice link! It looks like a very interesting article. 
> 
> Unfortunately, the actually images from the earlier Winder conversation are lost along with their ebay ads.  If Jim or Martin have copies of those, it would be great to see them here. I'll post the other pages from the Winder ad for posterity in case no one from the MC winds up with it.
> 
> Mick

----------


## brunello97

> I have it on my watch list and should be putting a bid in tomorrow before the deadline. Seems a bit silly for more than one of us to be bidding on it....
> 
> cheers g


No bidding on my part, just posting as an FYI. Seems like it could be a helpful document for your research, Graham. Good like with the auction...

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Graham: I had it set to bid in my snipe program as of a few days ago. If you truly want to the original I can take my bid off. Otherwise I would gladly make a pdf of the whole thing as well for anyone who wants it.

----------


## delsbrother

No bids from me either. On things like these I tend to copy the ad photos and squint.  :Smile:  Good luck on the bidding and I hope it stays "affordable".

----------


## JeffD

> From the general style of the instrument, shape of sound hole, style of clasp, head shape, edging etc I'd say that was undoubdtedly German. If its still of any interest. Dave



Thanks. Yes if anyone could tell me more I am all ears. I have no intention of selling it, but I may fix it up and play it.

----------


## trebleclef528

I'm in Berlin at the moment and dont have access to my poicture gallery but
below is a link to a "Winder mandolin" that i recently sold on ebay (hope the link still works). Again you can see the "De Meglio influences".

I don't know too much about Winder except that he was one of only a handful of builders in England who made bowlbacks circa 1900 era, I've had a couple and the quality has always been very good

Winder

and yes it sold for a song at £69 (Ya win some... ya loose some  :Disbelief: )

----------


## brunello97

Ouch.  That went for a relative pittance, even with the shipment to the US. Wish I had known... :Wink:  Nice looking hybrid design to my eye.  DeMeglioidal + sound hole/scratchplate variations.  Neck and all seemed in good, playable condition.

More Winder, please.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

So, I did not win the article about Winder but only one other bidder did. I contacted a couple of people who may have won it. We shall see.

As far as the Winder that Ian sold... I wonder if it was made in the UK. The hardware including the whole-cast zero fret/nut (last pic on this page) looks very much like DeMeglio and Italian in origin.

----------


## brunello97

This mandolin is an example of why these old bowlbacks are so interesting and so frustrating.  Jim, we ought to plan a trip to Napoli where maybe we can interview some of these people on location about the salad days. (I'm serious...)

I have no argument for or against Winder as maker of this (maybe the article will help, but none of the mandolins in the pictures looked even the slightest bit DeMeglio-ial.)  Granted he could have imported parts, tuners, etc. or even 90% complete bowlbacks that he finished. Or he had some made to spec.  

It is hard to imagine dozens and dozens of separate shops making nearly identical fair-to-middling mandolins instead of a few bigger places cranking out pieces for relabeling. If they were doing it in Chicago (and Paracho) no reason why it couldn't be done in Italy.  Still, you'd think a big shop would leave a trace... (Maybe they did, but they were in Catania  :Cool: )

I could be completely wrong about that but would love to find out.

This Winder has such an eclectic array of features that it is really fascinating.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Yes, Mick. Let's go, but let's keep our wallets in our shoes. I hear it is a tough town.

----------


## Graham McDonald

Sadly, I got the impression there was not much interest in mandolins in Naples these days. I suspect people with more fluency in Italian might be able find out more, and maybe dig into the city's archives. Three years ago when I made a flying visit to talk to the Calace folks, they seemed to be pretty much it. There are the two new builders who popped up here a year or two back and Carlo Mazzaccara who re-uses old bodies and restores good quality mandolins but little else I think. One music shop I discovered by accident had a bunch of mandolins hanging on the wall, but more for decoration and ambience rather than any expectation of selling them I thought.

It does seem like a most worthy expedition to plan though. I am sure some parts of the city are dodgy, but where I stayed near the main railway and the couple of kms to the Calace atelier seemed quite pleasant and full of the locals going about their business.

It is the oval soundhole on the Winder which suggests not being Italian. I go with actually being English made.

cheers

graham

----------


## August Watters

Carlo Mazzaccara builds wonderful mandolins - the old backs are optional. I bought one of his all new-construction mandolins last summer at his Florence workshop (he's since moved to Modena, but maintains the Napoli location). My Mazzaccara mandolin is astonishing. Haven't recorded it yet but will soon - big, full, resonant, loud, and excellent bass response. He's at oldmandolin.com

----------


## Jim Garber

I also thought Carlo made wholly new instruments as well, tho I also thought he was mostly in Modena. His site says Firenze and Napoli by appointment. August, I would love to see one of his instruments. Hopefully our paths will cross at some time.

----------


## brunello97

> There are the two new builders who popped up here a year or two back...


Graham, I exchanged a few emails with Salvatore and Michele from La Bottega in Napoli a year or so ago and found them to be really nice folk and very engaging. You've prompted me to get back in touch.  I am going to come up with some kind of 'email interview' to send them with a range of questions about Neapolitan mandolins.  Maybe even try to do it via Skype. That would be fun.

Mick

----------

Rick Schneider

----------


## August Watters

Jim, Carlo M had his main shop in Florence the past few years - that's where he was this summer, when I went to see him. Last fall he closed the shop in Florence and opened in Modena. He still retains a small place in Naples, but as you say, at this point is based mainly in Modena. He told me it's a good move in that he will be closer to the regions of north-east and north-central Italy where the orchestras are active, and there's more interest in the advancing concert music tradition. Oh, and there are too many tourists in Florence!

----------


## Rick Schneider

Mick,

Salvatore and Michele from La Bottega del Mandolin are very nice fellows and will gladly answer any and all questions. They are very gracious. I exchanged emails with them several times over 2 months before I commissioned them to build a Magistrale for me. They are super!!

Rick

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Rick. I do think I will follow up with this plan.  I look forward to meeting those guys in person some day. 

I'd love to hear about your experience working with them on a mandolin.  When did you arrange for the Magistrale?  Have you received it yet?  If so, what are your impressions?

Mick

----------


## zoukboy

> Dimitris also makes mandolins. I'm receiving this one for a student next week and will give a report.


I just realized that I never replied with the promised report about this instrument. My student has had it for about 6 months now and I have had the opportunity to play it on an almost weekly basis. It is quite an extraordinary instrument with many of the characteristics of bowl back mandos but different as well. The best description I can give is that it is a soprano laouto, but if you are not familiar with the laouto that won't help. If you can imagine a cross between a Neapolitan mandolin and a lute, then you'd be in the ballpark. It has a 14 1/8" scale and is very lightly strung: .009/.013/.022./032.  The tied-on nylon frets really make it sound more like a lute than just about any other mandolin I've ever heard. Seems to work for almost anything except Bluegrass.

----------


## Bruce Clausen

I wonder if anyone here knows anything about the builder Giuseppe Venzana, building around 1910 in Naples.  Dave Hynds' site shows an example plus a label, but a search of the Cafe gives nothing at all.  There's one for sale locally here, a plainer model than Dave's, that looks like it could be brought back to life without too much trouble.  I haven't seen it but am tempted to take a look.  Ad is here:

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/va...472149129.html

  Thanks for any insights.

----------


## Jim Garber

Prob decent mandolin tho the top repairs might be of concern. All of the Venzana mandolins in my files have Paul Beuscher labels and tho they were made in Italy, I wonder f there was some exclusive sales agreement.

----------


## brunello97

Bruce, I have a number of Venzana mandolins in my image files of with various stylistic differences in rosettes, bindings, pickguards etc.  Two have labels which like yours and also include the extra label from the Parisian shop.

I'm always intrigued to check out Italian mandolins that have made it over here. That the Venzana's are signed and numbered at least suggests a closer level of care and quality may be there.  I've never seen one in person. Hard to tell about the quality of these MOR builders. The fret spacing can be so variable in my experience. When the intonation is good, I think they sound pretty nice even the more modest ones.  When they are off, well...

That top looks like it has had its fair share of repair. The neck angle is key as you know. Let us know what you find if you go check it out. 

Mick

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Thanks for your comments, lads.  I've inquired whether the owner has any of the missing bits, but haven't heard back. Doesn't seem very promising as a project, but I may go get a look.  

I guess correct fret spacing is something I've always taken for granted.  Thanks, Mick!

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Hard to tell about the quality of these MOR builders. The fret spacing can be so variable in my experience. When the intonation is good, I think they sound pretty nice even the more modest ones.  When they are off, well...


No just the MOR builder, either.  When I got my Giuseppe Vinaccia, the frets were so erratic it was effectively unplayable.  May of course not have been the original fretboard -- Jon Springall, who did the repairs for me, thought it may have been a replacement as he couldn't envisage Giuseppe letting it out of the shop like that.  Jon made me a new fretboard and it's a wonderfully sounding mandolin.

Martin

----------


## Tavy

Here's a curiosity on eBay uk:

----------


## Jim Garber

I have only examples of two La Foley mandolins. The bowlback looks very close to this one but it not the same one. The flatback is a little different with a circular soundhole. I wonder if they were actually made in the UK.

----------


## brunello97

George La Foley's instruments certainly are curious, John. I have a few in my files where he is exploring this soundhole design.  I wonder what the repositioning of the soundhole sounds like?

Don't know much about the man himself or his operation, though.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

It is funny that the seller says, "This mandolin is sold with its original bridge" but I think he is talking about the ebony suppressor.

*Thread about a La Foley mandolin*, mostly talks about the ebony suppressor. This Foley pictures in that thread looks like a Demeglio -- different from the others with the vertical oval soundhole.

Some tangential and sketchy info about La Foley on a *page by Gregg Miner*.

*Some ukes by the firm*.

It says on this catalog page that George La Foley makes these hawaiians by hand.

----------


## Tavy

I particularly like the part of the label that says: "The scale of this instrument is compensated and warranted to play in tune", which sort of tells you all you need to know about all the other bowlbacks of the day  :Wink:

----------


## Jim Garber

You don't see too many of these for sale: *2004 Pandini mandolin* for sale in Italy. The hard case alone goes for prob 200 or more.

----------


## Marc Woodward

Whoops! You're never safe from MAS... Last night I fell off the wagon.
£113 on eBay... Cristofaro mandolin
I've known people who rate these highly - but you don't often see them come up for sale. Anyone got one/played one?
I'll report further when I've received it



Marc

----------


## Tavy

Congrat's Marc,

Though I must say those are seriously weird looking things!  :Smile: 

And how did I not see that one on eBay? (slaps forhead!)

John.

----------


## billkilpatrick

very interesting - to me it looks more french in style than italian

----------


## Marc Woodward

> very interesting - to me it looks more french in style than italian


Well spotted Bill! Apparently Cristofaro started out with a workshop in Naples then moved 
to Paris but kept his workshop in Naples going - the label has a Paris address but also refers to the workshop in Naples... I'm not sure where the instrument was made: whether he was manufacturing them in both places or just selling them from the Paris address... But there is a hint of the Maccaferri D sound hole about it!

Glad you missed it Tavy  :Wink:  - but if it needs any work I'll be bringing it to you! BTW I gave you a mention/thanks re doing the work on my D'Isanto e Angara on Radio Devon when I was on John Govier's Saturday am show a few weeks ago!

Marc

----------

billkilpatrick

----------


## brunello97

Nice score, Marc, I was tracking (though not bidding) on that one as well.  

I like the looks of Cristofaro mandolins and had always wanted one.  Last year I did find one on US ebay, same model as yours, I think, though it was in train-wreck condition.  Bowl was in splinters and the top not much better.  But the neck was straight.  A very slow repair (I am very slow at repairs) but it is together now with just some cosmetic work to go. I think it sounds really quite good in comparison with other MOR Italian mandolins I have played.  Very nice projection and good tone, biased towards the bass as I've come to think the Cristofaro asymmetrically shaped-and positioned-soundholes were trying to do.  But that thought is based on a sample of one.

I look forward to hearing (and seeing) more about yours.

Mick

----------


## Tavy

> Glad you missed it Tavy  - but if it needs any work I'll be bringing it to you! BTW I gave you a mention/thanks re doing the work on my D'Isanto e Angara on Radio Devon when I was on John Govier's Saturday am show a few weeks ago!


Thanks!  Missed that too  :Frown: 

Hope the Angara is still holding up with all those woodworm holes through the top - sort of an early version of the double top guitar  :Wink:

----------


## Jim Garber

Those Cristofaro are odd ducks with the fish headstock on some. I lobe the looks of that ornate bridge.

----------


## Jim Garber

I love this comment posted by the seller: 




> PLEASE NOTE - SINCE THE ORIGINAL LISTING OF THIS STUNNING MANDOLIN A PROFESSIONAL MUSICIAN HAS TAKEN A LOOK AT IT AND PLAYED IT AND HAS TOLD ME THAT IT PLAYS BEAUTIFULLY - GREAT TONE AND HOLDS THE NOTE FOR A LONG TIME - HE SAYS IT IS A MOST IMPRESSIVE INSTRUMENT, HE WOULD LEAVE IT AS IT IS APART FROM SOME WAX AND RE-STRINGING THAT IS ALL


I think the pro musician must play the tuba because the bridge is missing some slots and the bone insert and there or only 4 strings that are prob ancient. it also looks like there was a neck break near the headstock. It looks like it was repaired, hopefully well.

----------


## Tavy

> I think the pro musician must play the tuba because the bridge is missing some slots and the bone insert and there or only 4 strings that are prob ancient. it also looks like there was a neck break near the headstock. It looks like it was repaired, hopefully well.


Probably assessed by a banjo player  :Wink: 

Can't tell if that's a headstock break or not - that's where the scarf joint would be - and while it should be covered by the neck veneer, I guess it's possible that long term shrinkage could have caused the joint to show?  Might have come unglued I guess, but the "break" line looks very neat and straight to be a break... no way to tell from photos though...

----------


## Tavy

I'm sure these have been posted before, but I love the conceit of these labels:

----------


## Marc Woodward

Mando received and in pretty good nick. No top cracks or distortion or loose struts. 
However as Jim reckoned the bridge is missing a brass insert and has a little bit of ebony missing. Probably fixable but Dave Hynds can make me a replacement if necessary. Big thing is the neck has been broken and reglued. Seems solid, but...
Instrument came without strings so I'll need to get the bridge sorted then carefully string it and see just how solid the repair is....(gulp) 

Marc

----------


## Jim Garber

> However as Jim reckoned the bridge is missing a brass insert and has a little bit of ebony missing.


I am not sure if that is supposed to be a brass or a bone insert. I know DeMeglio's have a brass rod. I can check my files for Cristofaro and see. I might think bone would sound better.

----------


## billkilpatrick

broken neck!! - missing inserts? - i feel like a surrogate uncle for this mandolin ... hope it all goes well for the little fellow ...

----------


## Marc Woodward

> I am not sure if that is supposed to be a brass or a bone insert. I know DeMeglio's have a brass rod. I can check my files for Cristofaro and see. I might think bone would sound better.


Let me know if you come up with anything Jim. I googled and found an auction description referring to a brass strip in the bridge. The nut is brass so I'm guessing it might be brass at the other end...though I too think bone might be preferable.

Bill, I'll update all anxious relatives as the operation progresses....

Cheers
Marc

----------


## brunello97

Marc, FWIW of the 17 Cristofaros I have in my files (including my own, which is a ringer for yours) they all have bone saddles/inserts.  Not to say a brass one might not show up (or sound good as an alternative.)  I've seen a lot of DeMeglios with brass nut/brass insert, but mine has bone. Not 100% sure it is original though.  Seems easy enough to try both....

Mick

----------


## Marc Woodward

> Marc, FWIW of the 17 Cristofaros I have in my files (including my own, which is a ringer for yours) they all have bone saddles/inserts.  Not to say a brass one might not show up (or sound good as an alternative.)  I've seen a lot of DeMeglios with brass nut/brass insert, but mine has bone. Not 100% sure it is original though.  Seems easy enough to try both....
> 
> Mick


Brilliant Mick! As Jim says, I think bone would sound better anyway, so bone it must be
Thanks
Marc

----------


## Tavy

Just to say as well - the insert isn't strictly necessary - and probably doesn't effect tone that much if at all.  Provided the bridge is made from decent hardwood (rosewood or ebony, not some trash softwood that's been painted black - you do get them), and provided the strings make decent contact on the front edge of the bridge (not wiggling around on a flat surface) they're pretty much optional IMO.  Just my 2c....

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice looking *Vega* in the classifieds. It looks to be to be a style 3. NFI, of course.

----------


## brunello97

That is a nice looking Vega, Jim, and a reasonable price if it is in as nice a condition as it looks.  Vegas bling-up in style.  Check the seller's name.  I wonder how it wound up in SA or how long it's been there?

Mick

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Very nice looking mando here. The video should win some sort of advertising award in the Faint Praise category. Ad is in the Cafe classifieds.

----------

billkilpatrick

----------


## Bob Clark

> Very nice looking mando here. The video should win some sort of advertising award in the Faint Praise category. Ad is in the Cafe classifieds.


I don't think he's trying to be funny, but he sure is succeeding. :Smile:

----------


## billkilpatrick

... scant praise

----------


## Tavy

Well I thought it sounded OK  :Wink: 

Clearly not a bowl-lover !

----------


## Jim Garber

I think thast mandolin would sound better if it were tuned and intonated properly. I have a feeling the bridge is not placed exactly right.

----------


## Marc Woodward

Not really 'of note' but I bought this mandolin on eBay... Anyone got any advice about replacing list celluloid a missing bits of pearl?

Thanks
Marc

----------


## Marc Woodward

More photos here fyi  :Smile: 
http://www.ebay.it/itm/ws/eBayISAPI....:X:RTQ:IT:1123http://www.ebay.it/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=171025971549&ssPageNam  e=ADME:X:RTQ:IT:1123

Cheers

----------


## Jim Garber

> Not really 'of note' but I bought this mandolin on eBay... Anyone got any advice about replacing list celluloid a missing bits of pearl?


As founder of this venerable thread, I can say that all bowlbacks are really "of note" IMHO. 

Phew! That scratchplate would be a fair amount of work to accomplish at least a complete restore. Are you wanting to do that yourself or have a luthier do it? The pearl is prob easier and there may even be a pearl supplier that would have pieces that match tho more likely you would have to cut them out to fit precisely. Maybe a job for *Dave Hynds* or another qualified luthier? (I linked to Dave's page showing how he would repair a scratchplate and repair pearl edging.)

----------


## Marc Woodward

Thanks Jim, I bought this on ebay Italy as I wanted it for a little holiday home I have over there... I just wanted something not particularly valuable to leave out there. 
Of course I can't help wanting to restore it - so I could lug it back to UK and get Tavy to have a look or send it out to Dave in France... but I don't imagine the instrument is especially valuable so may not warrant the expense. On the other hand maybe it'll sound lovely and I'll fall in love with it......  :Smile:  

So I guess I could try restoring it myself with a scalpel and a thin piece of celluloid...Hmm, holiday project? Anyone tried doing this kind of scratchplate surgery?

Mind you I've still got a new Cristofaro to fix. And a Merrill aluminium bowlback in pieces. And a Joseph Bohmann in splinters. And my Vega Pettine has been retired pending restoration. 

Cue MAS mantra: oohhhmm - M.u.s.t - s.t.o.p - b.u.y.i.n.g - b.r.o.k.e.n - m.a.n.d.o.l.i.n.s.....

Marc

----------


## Marc Woodward

Just looked properly at the link to Dave's page... gulp... I suspect I should know my limitations and send it to a pro!

Marc

----------


## Jim Garber

> Cue MAS mantra: oohhhmm - M.u.s.t - s.t.o.p - b.u.y.i.n.g - b.r.o.k.e.n - m.a.n.d.o.l.i.n.s.....


You and me both... I went thru my instrument closet and compiled and inventory list of things to repair or to sell as-is, things to keep, etc. Man, I found some things I am not even sure why I purchased. Time to de-access, for sure.

Perhaps, if you did not care that much you could photograph or trace the scratchplate and remove celluloid and inlays and replace with a solid sheet of plastic in that shape. It would be much easier than to leave those inlays.

----------


## Beanzy

Marc the solution could be to buy another broken one, with different bits broken so you can cannibalise it for bits. 
I know you'll probably find hacking any mandolin about as appealing as drowning a puppy, but it's a quick and dirty fix.
If the one you buy is dead it's just like organ donation so it's achance for it to live on in the body of another.

That'll work for the bits 'n' bobs. 
If you can't get quite enough tortoise shell from sacrificial ones, as an experiment maybe the remaining gaps in the scratch plate could be done by getting a paper template from the gaps then mixing different coloured bits of Fymo, rolling really thin, cutting with a scalpel and baking. Once you get one baked thin enough and close enough in shape you could sand it completely flat and pop it in. It won't be ideal but it may work for gap bridging until you get some more tortoise shell. 

There you go...... an excuse to buy more bloomin mandolins!  :Grin:

----------


## Jim Garber

I know that Beanzy is really posting with tongue firmly in cheek, but in reality, it would make more sense (and prob be less expensive to buy missing parts (pearl and tortoise plastic) and replace the parts than to actually find a dead mandolin with missing parts.

----------


## Tavy

> Not really 'of note' but I bought this mandolin on eBay... Anyone got any advice about replacing list celluloid a missing bits of pearl?
> 
> Thanks
> Marc


The Pearl is easy enough - you would have to cut and sand the pieces to fit, but go slow and you should be fine.

The celluloid is *much* harder - you would have to both find a piece that matches (pretty hard in itself) - then cut to be an exact fit - probably you would need to lift the remaining inlay and then re-insert it piece by piece  :Frown: 

Pretty one though!  How many is that now?  :Wink:

----------

Jim Garber

----------


## Jim Garber

I don't know what is available in the UK as far as pickguard material but I had a 1927 Italian-American guitar with a disintegrated pickguard replaced and I purchased a sheet of this *Tortis material* which looks quite nice. My luthier was able to cut it to the right shape and it works quite nicely and looks very nice and prob closer to the celluloid stock available.

----------


## Tavy

> I don't know what is available in the UK as far as pickguard material but I had a 1927 Italian-American guitar with a disintegrated pickguard replaced and I purchased a sheet of this *Tortis material* which looks quite nice. My luthier was able to cut it to the right shape and it works quite nicely and looks very nice and prob closer to the celluloid stock available.


Nod.  There's a lot of good stuff available, the problem is the sheer variety of colors and patterns  :Wink:   If you're removing the whole panel and replacing it it's not an issue, but then there'd be a ton of inlay to reset on Marc's instrument.  It would be better if you could just replace the missing section... but getting something that would match the existing part would be hard (unless you bought up LMI's entire stock  :Wink:  ).  No tortis sheet in the UK BTW as far as I know... stuff like that has to be imported  :Frown:

----------


## Marc Woodward

Hmm, Eoin I'm not certain I could find a suitable donor with enough celluloid but I always like an excuse to look for cheap mandos....!

Jim, I did wonder whether it was possible to buy sheets of tortis type material and attack it with tracing paper and a scalpel...

Tavy (John!) - yep think I might be needing your help pretty soon. The Cristofaro needs a neck reset... And this one needs inlay work (and more maybe - I haven't seen it yet! It's still in Italy - I bought it to keep out there in a little place I have a small share in! I'll see it in a week and will find out if it's any good  :Smile:  and yes, I think I've lost count.. Maybe (gulp) 15... Of which only seven (hopefully 8!) are playable....

Marc

----------


## Jim Garber

This *Embergher style B* in London just showed up in the classifieds. it looks like it is missing the original tailpiece cover.

----------


## Tavy

Vinaccia mandolin just up on eBay UK.

Here are the pic's for posterity, check out the case on this thing!

----------

Bob Clark

----------


## brunello97

I love these old _coffin cases_, John, and this one is particularly nice.  I've built a few (albeit, out of pine...) and they are a nice alternative to cardboard, fiberglass, foam, etc. A very nice way to fetch and replace an instrument. That said, the mandolin accompanying this one looks to be quite special as well--nice clear signature on the label.

Mick

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

This is not for sale on ebay, but i think it is of note: it is a 1891 mandolin made by the Brazilian maker Joao dos Santos Couceiro.

----------


## Jim Garber

Plamen: That is wonderful. I can hear the early choro sound.  Where is this? Is this a museum?

----------


## Plamen Ivanov

Yes, Jim, it is the Museum of Arts and Crafts in Hamburg (Germany). Sorry for not mentioning this.

----------


## Jim Garber

I found an old program from June of 1900 for his orchestra on a Brazilian auction site. It looks like standard mandolin orchestra pieces.

----------

Plamen Ivanov

----------


## dave17120

Anyone got any opinions on this one on ebay at the moment??? I feel I have seen it before?!? Dave

http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...E:B:EF:FR:1123

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## Jim Garber

> Anyone got any opinions on this one on ebay at the moment??? I feel I have seen it before?!? Dave
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...E:B:EF:FR:1123


Horrible photo... seller says it is in good condition for its age? Hmmmmmm.... However it is possible that it is what it purports to be. It is difficult to tell but it looks like it has no strings and therefore the bridge is prob glued on. Price is too high IMHO for fair condition. Dave, did you get some more pics?

----------


## dave17120

some pics have arrived.... not brilliant, but better than on ebay.... what do we think??? Dave

----------


## dave17120

"M.u.s.t - s.t.o.p - b.u.y.i.n.g - b.r.o.k.e.n - m.a.n.d.o.l.i.n.s..... 'Marc Woodward"

Marc, you don't have to stop... just send them to me.... I'll sort them out  :Laughing:  Dave

----------


## Jim Garber

> some pics have arrived.... not brilliant, but better than on ebay.... what do we think??? Dave


Are you thinking of buying it for the asking price? In that case, no! I think the bridge, aside from being on backwards is not original. I don't know of the desirability of these as playing instruments tho I think they are valuable more as museum pieces. I guess they can be made playable as baroque mandolins.

----------


## brunello97

Love the pearl inlay on the top though.....(For a second I thought Marc was thinking of buying it.) It looks in pretty sketchy condition for that kind of do-re-mi.

In any event, nice to have you stop by, Dave.  I hope all is well.

Mick

----------


## dave17120

Thanks for your thoughts guys... yes I must try and stop by more often... pressure of work  :Frown: 

Actually, its not me considering buying that mandolin, it is a chap setting up a museum who asked my advice... and it was a bit outside my experience. I noticed the bridge was on backwards.... so someone doesnt know a lot about mandolins, but other than that I thought it looked fairly original. I also think the asking price is high... but with some collectors that is less important I guess... 

Be good, talk to you all soon I hope  :Smile:  Dave

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice but not $3,500 nice... oops the seller just reduced the price to $2,857. *Larson-made Maurer* with what looks like personalized pickguard. Missing tailpiece cover with some dings and scratches on the bowl and headstock. Yes, Larson, but still a bowlback. Could be a nice playing one. My Maurer is but I paid like 1/10th.

----------


## brunello97

> Nice......with what looks like personalized pickguard.


One of my favorite letters....

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Ceccherini... not so sure tho the label does refer to the "System de Meglio-Ceccherini" -- what language is that?  *Ebay auction*

I do like those dark bone tuner buttons.

----------


## Martin Jonas

I am 99% sure that this is neither a Ceccherini nor a De Meglio -- it is one of the many De Meglio clones where the builder has added the Ceccherini name on the grounds that he shared some design features with De Meglio.  However, the builder has then added various other elements which (apart from being particularly ugly) date this from the 1920s, such as the kidney-shaped soundhole and the assymmetric pickguard used in 1920s Calaces.

I see no features that would be present on a Ceccherini but absent on a De Meglio, and several that are De Meglio but not Ceccherini, such as the headstock shape and the side vents.

I suspect this is actually German-made (it says "System", not "Sistema"), and also suspect there may be an actual maker's name on the bit of the label not shown in the photo, below the box that says "System de Meglio-Ceccherini".

May be a decent instrument, but probably not -- buyer beware.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks for the expert analysis, Martin. I agree that this is suspect.

For anyone interested in a mandolira for "reasonable" amount of lira(!)... this one by *Lignetti*. Condition and ornamentation looks pretty nice to me.

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Complete with original fitted case.  That does look good.

----------


## brunello97

Well, you guys beat me to this one....I had a loooong day at work and just found this in my in box. By now my bowl-brothers should guess that I look on these _Liberty Style_ flourishes with a bit more tolerance than y'all.  Seems more like a DeMeglio/Cristofaro clone to me.  Not sure where the Ceccherini style comes into play-but assume that is a market ploy.  Still I tossed in a desultory bid as the neck appears reasonable from the photo. 

Doesn't really seem German to me, though, Martin.  Looks Italian true and true in detailing and design.  Haven't seen any German mandolins with that degree of, well, flourish.  (Which may be taken either as a compliment or a critique, one......)  I think the label and mandolin indicate two different trajectories altogether: one of _design and building_ (recall Plami's suggestion that bowls were made in Sicilia en masse to be topped on location in Napoli or Roma) and the _labeling_   which was geared towards the intended market, in this case probably the UK--where else were Ceccherinis or DeMeglios sold? 

The back/sides/headstock look standard DeMeglio design-fare.  Fretboard, soundhole and scratchplate are where the license comes to play.  Hard to imagine that coming out of Markneukirchen. Could be some Catanese going wild or a leftover Cristofaro/Calace top getting Frankenmando-ed together.

I know y'all probably think I'm crazy, but this one's kind of growing on me.  But I count on my older bowl-bros to keep me in line.... :Wink: 

Mick

----------


## Tavy

> Well, you guys beat me to this one....I had a loooong day at work and just found this in my in box. By now my bowl-brothers should guess that I look on these _Liberty Style_ flourishes with a bit more tolerance than y'all.  Seems more like a DeMeglio/Cristofaro clone to me.  Not sure where the Ceccherini style comes into play-but assume that is a market ploy.  Still I tossed in a desultory bid as the neck appears reasonable from the photo.


Best of luck Mick: I think it's horrible, but I kind of like it  :Wink: 

Note that it doesn't even have many of the DeMeglio features such as a string tensioner and bridge positioned forward of the cant.  Looks like one of the "fakes and forgeries" that the original DeMeglio labels warned you of.  Interesting though.

----------


## Jim Garber

nice tho well-traveled, no-name *piccolo mandolin*. needs a bunch of work tho interesting Richter tuners. 9.5" scale is very short. The Leland I have I think is 10.5 and I have it tuned to CGDA (one fourth above mandolin). Maybe this one would be best DAEB?

I would be imagine that this one would be pretty difficult to work on inside. Maybe you would have to dissemble to work on the ribs?

----------


## roady43

> There's a very early (1770) Vinaccia come up in eBay France


The same mandolin is on Ebay France again (and has been several times; as well on other platforms!) with exactly the same pictures.
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/171046043819
He offered me a direct buy giving his IBAN (Barclays in England). I informed Ebay about the fraud. The seller is offering other objects (to be found repeatedly in the internet) he does not seem to own...

Does anybody know what really happened to this Vincenzo Vinaccio from 1770 or who is owning it?

roady43

----------


## Schlegel

> Ceccherini... not so sure tho the label does refer to the "System de Meglio-Ceccherini" -- what language is that?  *Ebay auction*
> 
> I do like those dark bone tuner buttons.


Something about the soundhole and the tip of the fingerboard says German to me...

----------


## Jim Garber

> Something about the soundhole and the tip of the fingerboard says German to me...


It does have what looks like the same cast brass zero fret that my DeMeglio had.  Schlegel, do you have any photos of similar German mandolins?

----------


## dave17120

Ahhh... I see you guys already spotted the de Meglio-Ceccherini-Cristafaro- or any other famous name that will help sell my mandolin clone!!??!!
Any thoughts about this one.... what are the 3 banjo style tuners down the middle of the head all about????
Cheers, dave

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-MANDOLIN...E:B:EF:US:1123

----------


## Jim Garber

> Any thoughts about this one.... what are the 3 banjo style tuners down the middle of the head all about????


Must have been strung as an 11 string mandolin.

----------


## dave17120

Did that exist????? Anything else like it about??? There are the usual 4 string posts on the tail.... looks very odd to me  :Frown: (

----------


## Jim Garber

Someone just stuck some banjo pegs in there. They obviously were not original and you can see that they are not quite spaced evenly. After-market idiocy.

----------


## zoukboy

> Is this too far off topic?


Currently for sale in the classifieds: http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/66546

----------


## Jim Garber

Rather nice looking, upper-level Calace on eBay Australia. Looks in amazing condition however the action looks a little on the high side. I would imagine it could also present problems shipping overseas with all that TS. I have never seen this model -- according to the sell, from the 1920s. That sleeve guard is quite deluxe too tho I would imagine that was an add-on accessory.

----------


## brunello97

Here's a link to the auction for those who'd like to track it:

Calace Down Under

TS makes me sad, but this is a nicely designed and crafted mandolin.  $1 AU = $.95 US.  

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Oops... sorry I forgot the link.

I am not so sure about that action photo. It looks high to me but actually measures reasonably. Could it just be the angle?

----------


## JeffD

A mandolin like that could make me happy for a thousand years.

----------


## Graham McDonald

It is a very nice mandolin. It belongs to a luthier friend and has been set up well. From memory the style of the label puts it at about 1930 (though I could be wrong). We had a discussion about the label here a few years back and I thought that was the consensus. Exporting it might get interesting though...

g




> Here's a link to the auction for those who'd like to track it:
> 
> Calace Down Under
> 
> TS makes me sad, but this is a nicely designed and crafted mandolin.  $1 AU = $.95 US.  
> 
> Mick

----------


## mandroid

Had one of CF Martins  later taters  it was Nice.. had the same pickguard  style 
as the rest of their flat back  mandolins did, since..

----------


## Jim Garber

A No. 1 Embergher from 1905 at Brompton's Auction House in London later this month. This one is missing tailpiece cover and looks like it has some after-market inlays on the fretboard. I am sure (again) that it will need some work. They do mention some rib separations on the bowl.

----------


## Jim Garber

This auction will be over soon, but it is the first I have seen of this anomaly. This *mandolin labelled Pulcin*i, has an interesting history. I have to take off but will post the pics later, if no one else has not done so.

----------


## Graham McDonald

Except for the tuners it looks OK from the photos, but the label is distinctly odd. Labels of that period usually read 'FECIT' (built by), name of builder latinised and where they were from. Quick thoughts before breakfast...

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

Please forget you ever came across it; it's nothing more than a glued-together disaster!

Best, Alex.

----------


## Margriet

> Hi all,
> 
> Please forget you ever came across it; it's nothing more than a glued-together disaster!
> 
> Best, Alex.


You are talking about the last one, Alex, the Pulcini? Not about Embergher nr. 1 I guess? I have a similar Embergher from 1905 and I like it a lot. 

Margriet

----------


## Jim Garber

> This auction will be over soon, but it is the first I have seen of this anomaly. This *mandolin labelled Pulcini*, has an interesting history. I have to take off but will post the pics later, if no one else has not done so.


Here are some pics. The label is strange, tho I have a feeling that there was a time when Roman numerals were used oddly or the system was not quite standardized or used wrong, like spelling was back then. I would tend to doubt the authenticity. One potential bidder even wrote that he bought a faked one some time ago.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

_[QUOTE=Alex; Originally Posted by Alex Timmerman  
Hi all,

Please forget you ever came across it; it's nothing more than a glued-together disaster!

Best, Alex.[/QUOTE]_




> You are talking about the last one, Alex, the Pulcini? Not about Embergher nr. 1 I guess? I have a similar Embergher from 1905 and I like it a lot. 
> 
> Margriet


Of course, Margriet!

----------


## Tavy

This Calace just popped up on eBay UK, but looks very odd to me:



Condition is pretty terrible too!

----------


## Jim Garber

Outside of the tuners, it is prob a Calace. They made quite a few different models.

----------


## brunello97

> Outside of the tuners, it is prob a Calace. They made quite a few different models.


Tavolina de zucca?  Is that some kind of coloring smeared on the top?  I dig i fiori on the scratchplate.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Tavolina de zucca?  Is that some kind of coloring smeared on the top?  I dig i fiori on the scratchplate.


Tavolina de zucca = Little table of pumpkin?

----------


## Graham McDonald

I have seen a pic of that model before and I do like the head inlay.The tuners may be original as those rectangular buttons do add a certain style to the head and they are mounted on one of those shaped plates. You can see the edge along the back of the head.  Is it the '900 Brevetatto model of which there is an advertizing pic in Sparks' book? (which is at home not here at work)

g

----------


## Jim Garber

Graham, you have a very accurate memory. Here is the ad from P.77 of Sparks book plus some descriptive copy.

----------


## Graham McDonald

> Graham, you have a very accurate memory. Here is the ad from P.77 of Sparks book plus some descriptive copy.


Too much of my time looking at too many pictures of mandolins over the last few years.


Fun, though...

----------


## Jim Garber

I would never do that, Graham.  :Smile:

----------


## brunello97

> Tavolina de zucca = Little table of pumpkin?


Sorry, J. I always get myself in trouble this way. 'Pumpkin top' just sounds so perfect in English. No translation possible, or necessary...

----------


## Graham McDonald

> Sorry, J. I always get myself in trouble this way. 'Pumpkin top' just sounds so perfect in English. No translation possible, or necessary...


I thought it was the flowers in the inlay, and what I thought were irises(?) you had more efficiently spotted as some sort of vegetable...

----------


## Jim Garber

Not fancy but this *DeMeglio* looks like it was set up for playing properly and I would think the price is fair.

----------


## brunello97

An interesting bowlback from a Catanese maker I am not familiar with: Francesco (I assume from the stamp) Musumeci.  That is if he _was_ actually the maker.

Musumeci bowlback

While not for the purists here, it seems nicely appointed (though I'm not a big fan of R + R imagery in general) though the detailing craft isn't particularly crisp.  It does have a nice body shape with a bit of the nice reverse curve towards the neck. I like the patterning cut in the tailpiece / sleeve guard. A hybrid of design elements that doesn't completely hang together for me.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I guess the R&R decor is related to the Roman style mandolin. Headstock and the reverse curve is reminiscent of other Roman-style mandolins.

----------


## brunello97

> I guess the R&R decor is related to the Roman style mandolin. Headstock and the reverse curve is reminiscent of other Roman-style mandolins.


Good call, Jim.  That recurve is a small detail, but it adds a lot to my eye. The ebay ad didn't have great shots of the back or neck profile, unfortunately.  It did look like some choice RW went into the mandolin.



Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Reasonably priced *1925 Type A Embergher* listed in the classifieds in Holland. Missing tailpiece cover and can't tell what else.

Same seller has a *Minieri* for the same price.

----------


## brunello97

Nice looking mandolins, Jim, and the pairing of photographs clearly shows the body profile distinctions that we were just talking about.  :Smile: 

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Wow.  One of the nuttier Puglisi mandolins I've seen in a while:

Puglisi Bowlback

This one probably has something to offend just about everyone here.  I actually like it _parts_ of it, and other parts are pretty clumsy. Some parts are very clumsy. Their designs often miss and sometimes hit. I love Puglisi, though, for actually _trying_.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Wow.  One of the nuttier Puglisi mandolins I've seen in a while


 You gotta love that one, Mick. Those are the ones I usually end up with.  :Smile:   ...of course, not at that price.

----------


## billkilpatrick

other than the price, what's not to like?

----------


## brunello97

> other than the price, what's not to like?


Oh, I _do_ like it, Bill.  :Wink:   I wonder if doing an entire bowl with the harlequin pattern of diamond shape wood pieces has been tried?


Mick

----------


## brunello97

More design brio out of Catania:

Albertini Bowlback

The bowl staves appear to seamlessly blend into the neck veneer. I wonder if the entire bowl is veneered?  

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> The bowl staves appear to seamlessly blend into the neck veneer. I wonder if the entire bowl is veneered?


However did they do that?

----------


## Graham McDonald

> However did they do that?


Hombres (or as we would say 'Mate')  :Grin: 

I can't see that it would all that difficult, just some careful shaping and bending of some long strips of wood. At the same time I am not tempted to try it  :Smile: 

It is an elegant approach, though

g

----------


## brunello97

> It is an elegant approach, though
> 
> g


Very gourd-like.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Of course, it is also possible that those stripes are painted on.

----------


## brunello97

> Of course, it is also possible that those stripes are painted on.


Maybe, though that would take a pretty steady hand as well.  I zoomed in on it in Photoshop and the grain looks continuous along any individual stave but also differs from stave to stave.  I'm wondering: 1. if there isn't a proper bowl underneath that has been veneered along with the neck or 2. that is some really thick neck veneer.

Nice to have some bowlback discussions going on around the MC again.... :Grin: 

I sliced the tip of my left pinky working on the house so I've been playing my Vinaccia a lot more of late.  Thinner strings, lower action and shorter scale = less hurt.  Sweet little mandolin.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Mick: maybe you should put a carving of that cowgirl on your avatar for the head of that Vinaccia.

----------


## Beanzy

> Mick: maybe you should put a carving of that cowgirl on your avatar for the head of that Vinaccia.


You could put someones eye out with those weapons..... not to mention the six shooters.

----------


## brunello97

> Mick: maybe you should put a carving of that cowgirl on your avatar for the head of that Vinaccia.


Now that is a really good idea.  :Smile:   She is a dead ringer for someone very important in my life.......

Mick

----------


## Pasha Alden

A carving of the cowgirl?  Some carving that would be! Certainly unconventional.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

I didn't know where to post it,but is my latest creation-a Anastasios Stathopoulo bouzouki copy based on his widest mold.Follow the link:www.trixorda.blogspot.gr

----------


## Jim Garber

Giannis: Very nice work indeed on a beautiful instrument. The neck looks more like the Neapolitan makers tho -- didn't Stathopoulo make his necks using laminations?

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Laminations, solid mahogany and sometimes maple with rosewood.The neck was influenced by his teacher bouzoukis Ioannis Stathopoulos
Thank you for your kind words Jim!

----------


## Jim Garber

I would love to hear some music on it. Do you have video or mp3 to post?

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzrSy...ature=youtu.be
The video was shoot when i finished it and i am  a below average player

----------

Margriet

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice Giannis. Your playing sounds fine to hear the bouzouki. Nice ringing tone.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Very touching-- for me at least. Makes me terribly homesick...

Cheers, and heartfelt thanks.

Victor

----------


## Graham McDonald

Great looking and sounding bouzouki. We will be in Greece in May next year (just booked the tickets a couple of days ago) for week or so, and hopefully visiting a bouzouki builder or two along the way. Not sure where in Greece we are going to go, and open to suggestions.

cheers

graham




> I didn't know where to post it,but is my latest creation-a Anastasios Stathopoulo bouzouki copy based on his widest mold.Follow the link:www.trixorda.blogspot.gr

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Thank you!
_Victor i am waiting  you in Sparta-olive oil and great great wine!_

----------


## Margriet

Thanks, Gianni. Beautiful. Congratulations!

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

> Thanks, Gianni. Beautiful. Congratulations!


Thanks Margriet!
Graham,if you are going to  come to Sparta(there are a lot to see!)contact me!

----------


## Jim Garber

*1924 Embergher B* in Italy. High price IMHO for something that is missing the tailpiece cover and some funkiness on the headstock. OTOH it looks in pretty good shape otherwise as far as I can tell. The last one I heard of sold for around $2500. Of course, they are considering offers.

----------


## brunello97

Sweet.  Man, the back of those Emberghers looks like a dolphin's eye view of a vintage Chris Craft.

Mick

----------


## Bob Clark

> Sweet.  Man, the back of those Emberghers looks like a dolphin's eye view of a vintage Chris Craft.
> 
> Mick


Great analogy...they really do!  I'm suffering a bad case of BMAS at the moment, and this analogy isn't helping.

----------


## Jim Garber

I hesitantly acquired my second Pettine model Vega. My first was noted on *this post*. I bought it from the grandson of the original owner. His grandfather actually took lessons from Giuseppe himself and prob bought this mandolin from him as well.

The first one I acquired (on left in all the comparison pics) had no indication that it was Pettine model. The serial number seems to indicate around 1904. There is nothing written on the tuner plate and the tailpiece engraving is very different from the other one. The bridge is not original -- it looks like someone attempted to make a compensated bridge using small pieces of metal (paperclips?). The fretboard extension goes to 24 frets but the shape of it is different from the other one and extends further under the A strings.

This newly-acquired one does have Pettine model indicated on the tuner plate and a different engraving on the tailpiece cover -- a little country scene with a house. I do believe that this is the original bridge, currently missing the bone insert. it also has engraving on the other surface of the tailpiece cover. This one's fretboard extension goes to 27 frets but tapers mostly under the e strings. 

Other differences: subtle differences in the bowl rib separators -- the older one's look brighter colored. I am not sure if they are a different wood. The older one has a black either ebony or ebonized headstock overlay whereas the newer one has a rosewood one. 

it is interesting that these Pettines as well as the Abt models all seem to have zero frets. No other Vegas have that as far as I know.

I wonder if the earlier one was designed to be an upper line model and later became an artist model when they approached GP. I have seen other artist models, notably George Lansing models that looked like std Vega line models from that period with the artist tuner plates added.

Both are larger bodied than the std mandolin -- I also have a style three -- you can see the comparison in the last two photos attached.

----------


## Graham McDonald

By coincidence, I have just been going through The Cadenza and The Crescendo looking for Vega ads, trying to pin down the introduction of the cylinder-back line and what I could find about the Pettine Special Artists model. In the July '08 edition of The Cadenza, Pettine is gushingly quoted about the pleasures of a Vega mandolin, but it wasn't until the April '11 edition that the Pettine Special Artists Vega Mandolin is specifically mentioned. A later mention I have found was in the May '13 edition where Gregorio Scalzo was endorsing a 'Vega Special Mandolin' and noting that it had 29 frets. The post 1917 Vega catalogue I have still lists a Pettine Special Artists model, but the illustration only shows 27 frets.

The bridge might be a Truax, which was being advertised in the early years last century.

A photo of your Pettine model would be good if you have time, especially if it is a Truax bridge.

cheers

----------


## Tavy

Oh my, those are some sweet instruments you have there Jim!

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks, Graham! Yes, it is a Truax bridge. I thought that it was some home-made job. Here is a close up pic. The other Pettine pics of that one is above and at the earlier link in that post.

BTW I have never seen a Scalzo model except in a catalog.

----------


## peterk

Jim, I tried to determine how many back staves those two fine mandolins of yours had, then I lost count. :Grin:

----------


## Jim Garber

Peter: I can't access my computer remotely at the moment. I know the catalog descriptions are not always accurate. I can try to count the ribs but it is prob in the 40s.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a patent for the Truax bridge. The illustrations don't really resemble the one on min or the one in the and but the concept is there. it is interesting that Samuel Siegel is one of the patentees.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Oh my, those are some sweet instruments you have there Jim!


I wish I lived near you, John. We could do a fair amount of business. Maybe I need to move to the UK.

----------


## brunello97

> Here is a patent for the Truax bridge. The illustrations don't really resemble the one on min or the one in the and but the concept is there. it is interesting that Samuel Siegel is one of the patentees.


That's a pretty ingenious system.  You don't have to take the bridge off to tinker with the compensation. This could be a fun system to experiment with on a brass-saddle set up.

More coolness for the new Vega, Jim.  I wonder if Pettine was selling them fitted out with these?  Or if he and Sam Siegel were in some kind of communication about the bridges?  Breathes a little more life into things doesn't it?

BTW, I have a Truax labeled bowl-dola here.  Very modest appointments but plays and sounds nice.  I've seen their harp guitars over at Greg Miners site, but never another mandolin yet.  Alas, my Truax mandola _did not_ come with a Truax bridge.  Or else it was replaced at some time...

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a catalog page for the Vega Pettine Special. According to specs it has 45 ribs in the bowl. It is interesting that neither of my Pettine mandolins have the same engraved tailpiece cover that the one in the catalog has.

----------


## brunello97

Nice, Jim.  Do you know the date of the Vega catalog?  Interesting that AC Fairbanks is listed as a separate "Department" in the company making banjos and mandolins.  I know they were part of the original Vega merge. Any idea how long they still marketed ACF mandolins?

Curly maple neck!

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

For some reasons, the Vega catalogs I have (or copies thereof) are undated. I got this one from a prominent banjo collector I know and he guessed around 1910. Fairbanks-Vega info *here*. 




> The A.C. Fairbanks Company (incorporated 1875) was succeeded in 1903 by the Vega Company (established 1889). Vega continued to mark their banjos "A.C. Fairbanks" until the middle teens.

----------


## peterk

> Here is a catalog page for the Vega Pettine Special. According to specs it has 45 ribs in the bowl. It is interesting that neither of my Pettine mandolins have the same engraved tailpiece cover that the one in the catalog has.


Great specs and great looking instruments. Jim, since you own two Vegas, and I do not have any, I am prepared to help you remedy that poignant imbalance. :Wink:

----------


## Jim Garber

Actually I have three Vega bowlbacks now. The other is my style 3 which sounds wonderful with Dogal Calace RW92b dolce strings. The two Pettines need luthier help and will get that hopefully soon.

----------


## Eugene

I've owned functional Vega mandolins, but am now down to only one two oddballs that also both need help to be rendered functional.  Looks like I need to plan a shopping spree.

----------


## brunello97

> I've owned functional Vega mandolins, but am now down to only one two oddballs that also both need help to be rendered functional.  Looks like I need to plan a shopping spree.


A _Vega mandolin shopping spree_?  Sounds like an episode out of "King of the Hill". Bit of driving involved, no doubt.

Do you mean 'one-two oddball' Vega bowlbacks, Eug?  Would love to know more....

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

I _must_ say, however, that I would find kinder words than "Weirdo _a pizzico_" for such an esteemed colleague as yourself, Eugene.  :Wink:  At least a fully Italian _pazzo a pizzico_ has a certain, *ahem*... _alliterative_ value, if also equally unkind to such a sage as you. 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## brunello97

> I _must_ say, however, that I would find kinder words than "Weirdo _a pizzico_" for such an esteemed colleague as yourself, Eugene.  At least a fully Italian _pazzo a pizzico_ has a certain, *ahem*... _alliterative_ value, if also equally unkind to such a sage as you. 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Victor


Or maybe _pesce e pizzico_?

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

_Ne pesce ne carne_ really, but a fine gentleman, our friend Eugene.  :Grin: 

OK, folks, I have caused you to digress long enough; my apologies. Please return to your regular programming.

Cheers,

Victor

----------

Eugene

----------


## Jim Garber

I would say Eugene is more _pescatore di plettro_.

----------


## Bill Clements

Really fine trio of Vegas, Jim! You mentioned who you bought the last mandolin from but didn't mention how you discovered it.
Also, your Vega catalogue page was most interesting, as i never knew Vega sold a line of brass instruments.  I did a little research and discovered Miles Davis actually played a Vega pro-line trumpet for a time.

----------


## Eugene

Aw, you guys . . . !  I actually originally typed "one oddball," but forgot the other that's been lost in Jersey City so long that I forgot I was actually the owner.  I missed highlighting the "one" to delete in edit to the technically correct "two oddballs."

----------


## Eugene

The one is pretty typical other then being engraved "Made expressly for Peter Schuchmann," a name only remarkable in that I've seen two or three mandolins so branded.  The other is a simple piece with a more Vinaccia-like small butterfly on the scratchplate.

----------


## Graham McDonald

Peter Schuchmann was the director of the Schuchmann School of Music of Oak Park Illinois and Vega quoted him in Cadenza adverts around 1908.

He noted that his "trade was strictly high class, and the Special Mandolins which you have made for me during the past few years have been a source of satisfaction to me and my pupils." These might well be the source of the ones Eugene has seen.

Even though the Pettine Special catalogue page that Jim posted  listed the three departments of the Vega company including the Fairbanks as 'banjos and mandolins', the ads which focused on the Fairbanks instruments only ever mentioned the banjos and Vegas were the mandolins and guitars. Vega got the Fairbanks name and patents in 1904 (as well as David Day) after the fire, so maybe they didn't bother with the Fairbanks Regent brand mandolins after the takeover.

cheers







> The one is pretty typical other then being engraved "Made expressly for Peter Schuchmann," a name only remarkable in that I've seen two or three mandolins so branded.  The other is a simple piece with a more Vinaccia-like small butterfly on the scratchplate.

----------

Eugene

----------


## Eugene

Big thanks, Graham!  A long-running mystery that I've posted here in the past now solved.

----------


## brunello97

> I would say Eugene is more _pescatore di plettro_.


I agree! Forgive me for the continuing diversion, but by now il naso di cammello (o forse di pesce) e sotto la tenda:

----------


## Jim Garber

Getting obscure????  "the nose of a camel (or perhaps fish) and under the tent"?????

----------


## Eugene

Mmmm, pesce . . .

----------


## brunello97

> Getting obscure????  "the nose of a camel (or perhaps fish) and under the tent"?????


Once the camel's nose is under the tent, the rest of of him doesn't matter, does it?  :Wink: 

Since we went from weirdo to pazzo to pizzico to pesce to piscatore, we were almost there. I love playing this piece but was only really familiar with Pavarotti's version.  See what happens when Eugene shows up!

Mick

----------


## Eugene

Yeah, that guy's a weirdo.

----------


## brunello97

> Yeah, that guy's a weirdo.


Yeah, but he's _our_ weirdo.   :Smile: 

Mick

----------

Eugene

----------


## Jim Garber

Here's a whole thread from France talking about building a *carbon fiber bowlback*.

----------


## peterk

This eBay instrument looks to me like an Embergher, but alas, it "_non ha un'etichetta_" by Embergher. 
I can't even see the maker's name embossed on the headstock, which compounds the mandolin provenance concern.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Bellissimo-Ma...item2a33a91355
However, if the mandolin is a bona fide Embergher, someone might get a super deal on it.

----------


## Jim Garber

Peter: Sorry. I don't think so. Looks like a middling German copy. The shape of the bowl is very different. I doesn't really resemble any particular model of Embergher either -- they were pretty clear on the distinct models. It also looks to me like it was made within the last few decades.

----------


## peterk

Thank you, Jim, you do not have to be sorry at all :Grin: .......I haven't been interested in bidding on it.
In fact, the mandolin has got no bids so far.

----------


## peterk

Interestingly, here is another eBay Embergher (1928) where I am unsure about its authenticity:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Embergher-Man...item27da8be2eb
The enclosed pictures *a* and *b* show the mandolin as well as its headstock detail. (One can't see a stamp on the other headstock side either)
The seller claims the maker's stamp has been worn off over years. That I find hard to understand.

For comparison purposes, here's a headstock picture *c* which belongs to another significantly older mandolin (1904) where the stamp is still pretty fresh looking.

----------


## Jim Garber

That one does look like a genuine Embergher. I have to check to see if they stopped stamping the name on the back of the headstock. I would find it odd if someone tried to counterfeit a student A model.

----------


## peterk

If we are talking pre WWII luthier skills and labour rates in Europe, I think it was significantly easier/faster to make a copy of the Embergher student model, than of an ornate artist model.
Either way, if the Embergher shop had ceased branding their headstock by say 1928, that would offer a plausible explanation for  the absence of the headstock stamp in the subject mandolin. Furthermore, I'd sooner accept that the Embergher shop somehow forgot to brand that particular mandolin to start with, than believe the stamp rubbed off scenario offered by the seller.

----------


## brunello97

Do we see the interior lined with thin wood shavings underneath the label?  That would be some depth of forgery.

I'm no Embergherian by a long shot, but that body shape looks like bonafide to me.

Mick

----------


## peterk

Thanx, Mick: we seem to have another vote in favour of authenticity.
As far as the maker's label goes, you may have a valid point there.
(Incidentally, take a look at this: a seemingly genuine instrument _cartiglio_  by the Puglisi workshop offered for sale for 35 Euros. :Whistling:  That cracked me up.)

----------


## brunello97

Nice photo, Peter.  I am a big fan of Puglisi mandolins.  They went through a series of label design changes.  The white box above the label often had the standard "deposé geschütz" registration language on them, I suppose for export to France and Germany.  I've also seen a "Puglisi" signature up in that box as well.

For not that much more money you could probably get a Puglisi label with a mandolin still stuck to it.

Mick

----------


## Beanzy

Those tuners are on upside-down by comparison with the stamped headstock instrument. 
Perhaps there's been work done in the not so distant past.

----------


## peterk

Keen observation, Eoin.
I've checked a few other Embergher mandolin pictures, and there seems to be some variety of tuner machines and mounting arrangements they used over the years.
It looks like some might have been mounted with the worm screw above the cog wheel, some were beneath.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> That one does look like a genuine Embergher. I have to check to see if they stopped stamping the name on the back of the headstock. I would find it odd if someone tried to counterfeit a student A model.


The mandolin looks genuine to me -- I wouldn't be too hung up about the stamp, which I believe was somewhat inconsistently applied (at one stage they even used a stamp spelling "Emberger" without the "h").  I'm pretty sure those tuners are not original, though -- the buttons are different and the mounting plates should be squared off.  While a 1928 Tipo A may have used different tuners from my 1915 Tipo A, this looks different from other 1920s ones I've seen and doesn't quite seem to fit the space on the headstock.  The soundboard looks very glossy, too, and may have been refinished.  Other than that, it looks in good structural condition.

Martin

----------


## Tavy

Here's a noteworthy one, not only pretty, but currently owned by Louis de Bernieres:

----------


## Jim Garber

> Those tuners are on upside-down by comparison with the stamped headstock instrument. 
> Perhaps there's been work done in the not so distant past.


My 1904 has upside-down tuners -- it tunes opposite of the way you would think. Not sure if it was intentional or not but I believe that they are original (on mine).

----------


## brunello97

> Here's a noteworthy one, not only pretty, but currently owned by Louis de Bernieres:


Very interesting, John. I guess I am not surprised that he has a Greek mandolin.  

There is an ongoing conversation about De Bernieres and Captain Corelli (and other books).  I had just found a photo of the author at the BGM site.  

Curious right hand technique, no? 

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Yet another Embergher on eBay Germany. This one a *style 1 from 1907* with a some interior writing by a repairer what looks like 1922. It is missing the tailpiece cover and looks like it needs to be cleaned up a bit and prob some repairs.

----------


## peterk

> Yet another Embergher on eBay Germany. This one a *style 1 from 1907* with a some interior writing by a repairer what looks like 1922. It is missing the tailpiece cover and looks like it needs to be cleaned up a bit and prob some repairs.


The price on that one seems rather steep to me, but I am not an Embergher "kenner" :Grin:  I'd say those 1922 repairs would require proper repair/restoration before the instrument could reach its full resale potential.

----------


## peterk

This mandolin identified as restored Vinaccia looks very nice on the photos:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/sehr-schon-Ma...item2a3409def4

----------


## Jim Garber

> Interestingly, here is another eBay Embergher (1928) where I am unsure about its authenticity:
> http://www.ebay.de/itm/Embergher-Man...item27da8be2eb
> The enclosed pictures *a* and *b* show the mandolin as well as its headstock detail. (One can't see a stamp on the other headstock side either)
> The seller claims the maker's stamp has been worn off over years. That I find hard to understand.
> 
> For comparison purposes, here's a headstock picture *c* which belongs to another significantly older mandolin (1904) where the stamp is still pretty fresh looking.


I guess people were not sure since it went for a reasonable price: 556 euros = about $750.

----------


## Martin Veit

Hi Guys,
my first post in this amazing Thread.
I'm very new in the roundbowl-Buisiness (and also new in posting in halfway understandable english)
But, i've been on the trail since i found out that Embergher should have done some Export-Mandolins,
that are labeled as "Belcanto". They were sold by an german "Musikalienhandel" and Luthier named "Emil Hofmann - Hamburg".
I'm up for this 'cause i rebuild an old Guitar-Bass with the same label-stamp (correct?)
and based on this, i take a lot of peeping into the mandolins of my fellows in our mandolin Orchester.
Man - i found some hot stuff. F.eg. is one of our older member playing a fine "Puglisi" Mandolin. 
And it seems, that most of these fellows don't have any glue, how much these instruments ar worth.

So, my fathers son is up on the ebay-trip. And there are some fine points to make, so i guess.
For e.g there is a "puglisi" mandolin in fine condition (or so it seems) that is on auction for 50€ http://www.ebay.de/itm/141131316409?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT 
Well, if some of you has an interrest in it, the buyer is somewhat about 40km away from me.
Would you supose to put the tumb on it?

And a good Embergher model Student B is also available now.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/121226517512?...84.m1431.l2649
The last auction on ebay germany of an embergher student b goes up to roundabout 400€.

That brings on my last question for now.
How do you do such shippings? Lets say, you bought a instrument here in Europe.
Or is there an other Thread about this issue?

Enough for now on. Looking forward for your replies.
(Man, only to read the last 30 Sites of this thread costs my over 4 hours  :Smile: 

Greetz

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> And a good Embergher model Student B is also available now.
> http://www.ebay.de/itm/121226517512?...84.m1431.l2649
> The last auction on ebay germany of an embergher student b goes up to roundabout 400€.


That would be a very good price if it were in excellent condition. However take a look. The seller says "Die Saitenlage im 12ten Bund beträgt ca. 3mm." -- that the height of the strings over the 12th fret is about 3mm. However the bridge is in the wrong place. That tells me that the height of the strings is actually much higher and that the neck may need to be reset or is warped. 

This one also looks a little odd to me: the binding is very different from other student B models I have seen. other than that, non-original tailpiece and a few broken tuner buttons. Not too bad.

----------


## peterk

> Hi Guys,
> my first post in this amazing Thread.
> I'm very new in the roundbowl-Buisiness (and also new in posting in halfway understandable english)
> But, i've been on the trail since i found out that Embergher should have done some Export-Mandolins,
> that are labeled as "Belcanto". They were sold by an german "Musikalienhandel" and Luthier named "Emil Hofmann - Hamburg".
> Martin



I have one "Belcanto" mandolin with the "Emil Hofmann Jr." label on the headstock, and it looks like 1950/60 vintage. It is a large instrument with 35cm active string length, soundwise superior to other bowlbacks of mine. The V-shaped neck and radiused fretboard are great for playing, although the instrument does stretch my hand a lot because of its length. The mandolin is built quite robustly, yet its finish and some wood selections are not very refined.
Perhaps you could tell us more about that Embergher-Hofmann connection.

----------


## Jim Garber

The German makers and dealers were very aware of the different styles of Italian mandolins and they made many copies of these. It is possible that Hofman imported Emberghers and labelled them Belcanto tho it is equally possible that the many German makers supplied these Römische or Embergher-style mandolins.

I would love to see some photos of these Belcanto/Hofmann mandolins.

----------


## peterk

Jim, I shall take some shots of my "Belcanto" in daylight tomorrow and post them, but I am inclined to think that, as you suggest, my mandolin was made in Germany, but perhaps inspired by an Embergher model.

----------


## Martin Veit

Well, 
for first, here some Photos of the Belcanto-Bass.
And as i said, one of my orchester-friends is playing a belcanto mandolin.
She knows, that her instrument must been build in the early '50, because she now is
somewhat in the middle of her seventies and she has got the mandolin as a gift from her father.

----------

Alex Timmerman, 

Beanzy, 

Jim Garber

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Lovely pizzicato Bass! 

Thanks for posting, Smackwater.Jack! Is it used in your orchestra? 

Here is a photo of the Italian pizzicato Bass which used our Mandolin Chamber Orchestra 'Het CONSORT'. It is referred to as the Chitarrone moderno.


Best greetings, Alex.

----------


## Jim Garber

I love that Belcanto bass. I did think of the bass in Het Consort but Alex beat me to it.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> But, i've been on the trail since i found out that Embergher should have done some Export-Mandolins,
> that are labeled as "Belcanto". They were sold by an german "Musikalienhandel" and Luthier named "Emil Hofmann - Hamburg".


That's an interesting bit of information -- I wonder if it can be verified in some fashion.

Six years ago, in 2007, we were discussing an Emil Hofmann labelled mandolin in this very thread -- post #2779.  

This relates to an Ebay auction, but unfortunately the photos are long gone -- Jim and/or Mick may have downloaded them for posterity.  I well remember the auction, though, as I bid on it.  This was a pristine-looking 5bis model, either a genuine Embergher or an extremely good copy.  At the time I discussed it with Ralf Leenen who thought that it looked an excellent mandolin, but on balance just very slightly off to be a genuine Embergher.  However, if your information is correct that would of course rather change matters.

Whatever the situation, I didn't win that 2007 auction -- if I remember right I went up to about 1500 Euro and the winning bid was 2510 Euro.  Very good price for a genuine Embergher 5bis in good condition, but high for a bowlback without that provenance, so I assume that the winning bidder was satisfied that it was an actual Embergher.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Martin, I checked my files and unfortunately nothing on E Hofmann.  I don't have a percent of the Embergher knowledge that y'all share (but I might have had a $199.01 one if it hadn't been such a busy workweek.... :Wink: ) though I am very intrigued by the idea that they may have done some jobbing for another label. The $1.99 Embergher Jim just bought appeared to have another label pasted over the original.  First time I recall seeing that.

Too bad the ebay listing has long expired.  All the more reason to collect and post examples when we can.  Maybe Jim has something?

Mick

----------


## Martin Veit

Next Thursday, i will take some photos of the belcanto mandolin.
As far as i 've seen, it is a very balanced instrument.

And for the Emil Hofmann Label, well, i know that the Trekel Verlag had bought this Hofmann company in 1965.
I 've been in contact with the Trekel Company, but it seems, as if they are to busy at the moment do do a reserch in their attic  :Smile: 
Maybe there are some old financial records from the Hofmann Company which gives us more information.

Alex, nope, the bass isn't played yet in the Orchestra. Our Bassplayer use his old Contrabass.
The gimmik with this pizzicato bass is, that this was my first restauration objekt in instruments.
I found the bass nearly 25 Years ago on the attic of our orchestra-clubhouse. He stood there in an especialy builded cabinet.
Two big cracks in the ribs and one in the backside. The Soundboard was lifted of on two places.
I fixed them, take the old Laque off and so on.
Man, how blue-eyed i was yesterdays  :Cool: 

But, as far as i can see -aehm - hear , it sounds pretty good  :Smile:

----------


## Jim Garber

Here are the only, rather poor pics I have of that Hofman 5bis. I usually copy the descriptive copy if relevant or useful but i did not in this case.

Also, if you go to the thread that Martin links to and scroll down a little, I posted some German catalog pages of Embergher style mandolins.

The only thing I can see on these small pics is that the tailpiece is German made and would not be original if it were a genuine Embergher also the bridge would not be either.

----------


## Martin Veit

hmm - some little steps brings us further on.
Here is an extract from an retrospective articel about the history of the Joachim-Trekel-Musikverlag. 

quote:
_ 1964 übernahm Joachim Trekel zusätzlich die Musikalienhandlung Emil Hofmann in Hamburg, inklusive aller Vertretungen, u. a. Le Mediator, Adofé, II Mandolino, Maurri und Calace. Zu dieser Musikalienhandlung gehörte außerdem der Fritz Gottschalk Verlag (Köln); diese Tatsache wurde jedoch erst später bekannt, so dass dieser Verlag leider nicht weitergeführt wurde._ 
...that means, that the Emil Hofmann Musikalienhandel had been the publisher for the calace musical notes.
Therefor it is very posible, that Mr. Hofmann was also in touch with some of the italian luthiers. Why not Embergher or Calace?
It seems very exciting to learn more about.

----------


## Martin Veit

btw.  yesterday i hit this one on ebay for very small 50 Bucks :  :Grin:

----------


## Jim Garber

> ...that means, that the Emil Hofmann Musikalienhandel had been the publisher for the calace musical notes.
> Therefor it is very posible, that Mr. Hofmann was also in touch with some of the italian luthiers. Why not Embergher or Calace?
> It seems very exciting to learn more about.


Certainly possible, but I would be careful jumping to any conclusions. I would think that these small shop luthiers would want their instruments sold all over but I don't know if they would want them re-labelled at least with their permission.

I did purchase an Embergher mandolin the other day that was sold by a Zurich music store but it is plainly an Embergher: it has a small stamp on the headstock and a label is visible under the store label. I am not sure that a small shop like Embergher would want their own brand obscured. I see lots of Embergher style mandolins in the old German catalogs but they seem to be copies and not originals.

I am not saying it is not possible, but I think we would need pretty strong proof that this is so before assuming, for instance, that Hofmann sold actual re-labelled Emberghers.

I seem to remember from Ralf and Barry's book that there was an additional stamp applied to those Emberghers sold in Beligium or France but that the branding was still Embergher.

*smackwater.jack:* what is your actual name?

----------


## Martin Veit

Jim, my actual name is Martin.

----------


## Jim Garber

Martin, my actual name is Jim. Thanks and welcome to our little corner of mandolinland.

----------


## Martin Veit

Yepp! Thanx and its nice to be here.
There are not so much germans here sfaik  :Smile:

----------


## peterk

Welcome, Martin, and as far as I can tell there are a few German members around, and one of them ("Bratsche") is quite active too. 
I am also a relative newcomer to this forum, and Jim has been my mentor. :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Jim Garber

I just got this Embergher No. 1 today and took some pics which I posted *here*.

----------


## peterk

Martin, if the neck of that Puglisi Reale  is reasonably straight, I think you might have got a super deal there.

----------


## Martin Veit

Peter, i will see through it during the next days.
You can guess, how expectant i'm for the postmans arrival.
Alltogether, i shot four mandolins in the last three days.
Anja, my beloved wife  :Redface:  is very upset with me  :Mad: , 
'cause my buget is a little bit overstretched  :Whistling:

----------


## peterk

Martin, your better half should consider other less wholesome ways in which you could be spending your money and time, such as drinking, gambling, illegal narcotics, golf, etc. By comparison, mandolin collecting (and playing) is relatively inexpensive, spiritually uplifting, morally positive, and truly innocent. Moreover, these days bowlback mandolin prices are a dime a dozen, although there are some hidden/insidious costs that often arise from such acquisitions. :Grin:  Ask Jim, I think he knows. :Grin:

----------


## Martin Veit

Peter, the thing is, that i'm a carpenter and a woodworker in
the third generation. And cause the damm' market is dawn, 
i had to give up the little carpenterie, i've had with my father.
So, there is a small workshop, where my father has used to do his things, 
like woodturning and so. Sculptors and such things for my mothers Christmas-Charity Bazarr  :Laughing: 
Well, he has passed away in Januar and i have inherited his complet sample of skills.
(and had a lot of my own before)
So, why not try to work again a bit in wood?
A friend of mine, Tom Launhardt, is a famous Luthier here in our Region and 
i 'm able to take sometime a lurk to his craftmanship.
It's a great thing and i like it very much.
So i've started with putting pickup-systems in my guitars, 
repair an old Hanika-Guitar, fix this Belcanto Bass and so on.
In between, i do a bit Restauration on old "Jugendstil"-Furniture...

Man, while writing these lines, i ask myself, 
if i will ever get some time further on learning to play mandolin.
Merde, you're right - i shouldn't do so much mandolin-restauration 
but went on with playing the "eightstring"-Thing  :Grin:

----------


## peterk

Martin, the traditional craftspeople are becoming a thing of the past in North America as well. For example, I am not aware of a luthier on this continent who'd offer specialized and reasonably priced repair service for bowlback mandolins. Therefore, some of us end up having to ship our bb mandolins to Europe for repair/restoration. :Disbelief: 
I've just noticed you are from Wetzlar, the seat of Leitz and Zeiss.

----------


## Martin Veit

Jepp, Peter. 
Wetzlar, City of Goethes Werther, Leica cameras und Zeiss microscopes.
And further more, i guess.
And, here in hessian, there are a lot of good luthiers at home.

----------


## Jim Garber

Martin V brought up this *Konrad Wölki signature model* (1940) on eBay Germany. Discussion on *this revived thread*.

----------


## peterk

I couldn't tell an Embergher mandolin from a Hofmann, but it is said that mandolins by Vincenzo Vallucci come pretty close to the real Embergher form as well as sound.
There is one Vallucci on eBay, in need of restoration though:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MANDOLIN-V...item33887511bf

----------


## Jim Garber

I believe that Valluci did work at the Embergher shop but I think that this seller values them as much as a genuine Embergher and, from what I know, that he is asking too much. I have never seen or played a Vallucci, but i would imagine if it were in good shapoe it would be a nice mandolin.

----------


## peterk

Here is Leenen doing a demo of another fully restored Vallucci mandolin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faeRYOntIfs

----------

Hany Hayek

----------


## Jim Garber

I saw *this Vega* which looks like a style 2 or 3 a little while ago but today I noticed that it has DeMeglio-style side ports. I have never seen such a thing before. At first I thought the seller posted the wrong photo but that one does look like the right one on that same mandolin.

Seller says:



> This instruments has the side sound holes typical of the Vega bowl backs.


Really? Maybe I have missed this feature all these years.

----------

Eugene

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## brunello97

Very curious, Jim. I could be wrong but those look pretty cleanly done to me to be after market modification.  

I'm romanticizing, but I'm imagining a scenario where an immigrant luthier who once worked for DeMeglio found himself in Boston with a job at Vega.  He puts those holes in out of habit or with (subversive or exploratory) intention and the piece either makes it through to finishing under the radar or the superintendent let it go and say 'once is enough'..... But who knows?

Whatever the source of the holes, that's a pretty mandolin.

Mick

----------

Eugene

----------


## Jim Garber

I agree. I checked my files and I don't see holes like that on any other Vega bowlbacks. In fact I have a very similar one -- BTW this is a style 1 -- you can tell from the fretboard dots. Very strange.

----------


## Martin Veit

As i promised, here are the fotos of the belcanto mandolin:

----------


## Martin Veit

Lilo, my orchestra fellow don't know exactly, how old the mandolin is.
She remembers, that her father had bought her this instrument as a used onje for her 12's birthday.
She now is 73 Years old. So this belcanto must be from the late 20's or early 30's from last century. 
Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks for posting those photos, Martin. That is a lovely looking mandolin and it definitely has Roman features but I am not so sure that it was built in the Embergher shop. It also looks to me to be much later than 1930s, more like 1950s or even later and similar to the Belcanto that Peter posted. The neck is looks right as well as the way the ribs curve into the neck joint. The fretboard looks wrong and I can't quite tell but these look like standard t-frets as opposed to the bar frets that the Embergher shop used I believe into at least the 1940s and possibly later. Do you have a full head-on shot of the mandolin and a full shot from the back? It is also good to see a full shot of the bottom end of the mandolin.

----------


## Martin Veit

Jim, the wanted head-shots i can take next year, after our Winter-break.
About the embergher thesis - it could be, that it is only built in the style of an embergher mandolin.

Well, my friend is born in 1940. So she got the mandolin 1952. 
She meant, that the guy, from which her father had bought the mandolin,
hadn't played the instrument for some years. 
So it is possible, that the mandolin was built "pre 1952"  :Smile: 

I called yesterday the owner of the Trekel Verlag. It seems , as if there are no older documents
about the "Emil Hofmann Musikalienhandel" 

The brandname isn't digital documented. 
But the guy from the patent office in Hamburg tells me, 
that i'm invited to do a paper reserche in their archive.
Maybe sometimes i will do so.  :Smile:

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks, Martin.

----------


## peterk

The deeper I get into this classical mandolin thing, the more I feel that a number of those century old bowlbacks from Southern Italy were essentially souvenir grade instruments aimed at well heeled tourists from NW Europe and N America, where the makers' emphasis might have been in outward bling and flourish of mandolin ornamentation, and the instrument playing qualities and build strength were not necessarily a priority. I guess they knew their market and where the money was, and they catered to it in order to earn their living.
However, there were clearly other mandolin types mass produced in Naples which were relatively low on "bling" but were built to function as fine playing instruments. One may single out DeMeglio's output as a sterling example of the latter bowlback type.

Be that as it may, I thought this mandolin pickguard by Salvatore Miglia was unabashedly souvenir like : it sports a rather realistic rendering of the Rialto bridge.  :Grin: 
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Antike-8-sait...item25868254e6

----------

Eugene

----------


## Jim Garber

This alleged "*c.1915 Stathopoulos Style Bouzouki*" looks a little suspect to me. This one also looks like it had the neck with a spliced mandolin headstock on it. Perhaps there was a three course headstock and it was converted to four course. Plus it is a real basket case but  already the bidding is above $1000, so the bidders must think it is a genuine Stathopoulo.




> This is an Anastasios Stathopoulos (father of Epi) style bouzouki made in in the early 20th century and it is in need of extensive repair work.  It is complete and all original but the top has separated from the bowl and the top has cracked.  There is no missing or splintered wood.  There is an area where the purfling is damaged and one small section where the purfling is missing.  The staves are in good shape.  There is one fret marker missing and the fretboard has hairline cracks.  The frets are in reasonably good shape and the tuners work fine.  The scratch plate is a depiction of angels playing a harp and it is intact and in good shape.  The neck is straight and tight to the body.  There is no label but the construction characteristics indicate is was made by the Stathopoulos shop in New York.  However, without the label, the provenance cannot be assured.

----------


## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

I believe that it isn't Stathopoulo,but from another greek maker from the same period

----------

Jim Garber

----------


## Martin Veit

Guys, 
 IMHO here is a hidden treasure in the german bay!
I think, i would bet my ass, that this is an Calace Bowlback.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Musikinstrume...torefresh=true

----------

Beanzy, 

Margriet

----------


## Margriet

Thanks, Martin, interesting. 

Margriet

----------


## brunello97

_Scommetto il mio culo._

I'll bet that sounds cool in any language. I think you may be right, Martin.  I tossed in a 'desultory bid'.....

Mick

BTW, I have an uncle (in-law) in Augsburg.  Nice town, as I recall.

----------


## Jim Garber

I agree with you, Martin, that it certainly looks like a Calace circa 1900.The case looks like period Calace case. I wonder why there is no label.

----------


## peterk

A few practical concerns I've had about that one, related to the payment method, shipping charges and seller's feedback %.

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## vkioulaphides

_Sedere_, signori.  :Grin: 

Yup, it appears to be a Calace.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## peterk

> I tossed in a 'desultory bid'.....


Mick, that brought to mind this nice tune :Grin: :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTRfhlzoCcs

----------


## Martin Veit

Guys, i will try my best and have my thumb on it. 
It will be very nice, if you don't bid against me.

B.t.w. here is the lookalike mandolin:
http://www.music-treasures.com/mandolin.htm
Look at No. 2946

a - and i 've forgot go say: "a very nice christmas to all of you"

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Yes, I hope you all had a nice Christmas.

Music Treasures has very high asking prices. I would be surprised if he actually got $5000 for that Calace tho it is possible he got close to that. Martin, did you contact the seller? The two mysterious top holes are spaced differently from the Music Treasures example and the bridge on  the eBay one is also strangely small in width, tho I am not surprised since there always seems to be slight differences in these Calaces even within the same model. I would ask lots of questions esp of the condition of the top -- is there any sinkage? -- and perhaps what the height of the strings are at the 12th fret. I would also ask if the neck is straight and some side-view photos of the mandolin. 

I would imagine that there are bidders poised to snipe on this at the last moment. Calaces are also very popular in Japan so there may be bidders from there. The price is very low right now but I would imagine that it would go at least into the 2000 euro range.

----------


## Martin Veit

Jim, i didn't asked an word.
Only to have the pandoras box closed.
And i believe, that only a few bidders realy know, 
what this auctionator have in his portefolio.
I guess, he didn't knows it by himself as well.
I will try my best, but i can't go to the price you imagine.
But as far is i think, the mandoline will be sold lesser than 500€.
Three weeks ago, a embergher in good condition is sold for less than 400€.

Just let me try  :Wink:

----------


## peterk

Martin, good luck with that. I do not think there will be much bidding competition from this side of the pond. Many of us prefer the protection, such as it is, Paypal offers, particularly for overseas purchases. That Antiklang seller wants a cash payment, no Paypal, the way I read his auction conditions.
In your case, if the deal turns sour, you could be at his doorstep with a baseball bat in 2.5 hrs of driving. :Grin: 
Also, the absence of a maker's label, or of a similar positive record of its provenance, tends to depress the instrument's market value.
That in fact might help you get the mandolin.

----------


## Martin Veit

Peter,
i think, this guy has bought the mandolin with some other things
in a conglomerate of many "Nippes" at a garage-sale.
He is a kind of fleamarketdealer.
And i agree with you, it may be helpfull that he has some kind of bad ratings at all.
At the end, i can drive to his house and put out the basball-bat if things turn bad.
But first of all, i have to get the award.  :Cool:

----------


## peterk

Indeed, the subject Calace's sound "vents" are spaced closer than what one can see on some other mandolins of his. Perhaps just a latitude that the workshop had in that regard. What would concern me a bit more is the bridge: its miniscule length is at odds with any other old Italian mandolin I have ever seen. If the bridge is an "aftermarket" type, then one practical incentive to having the shortest possible bridge is the ease of fitting on the convex belly surface.
Furthermore, a Calace mandolin must have been a cherished possession even when it was originally acquired, and a source of pride to its owner. Therefore, people would be mindful of the maker's label getting unglued and such......the tendency would to preserve it in its place. I also think that some lighter form of gluing could have been used for those labels, because if they used the same carpenter's (hide) glue (+ application) as they employed on the bowl paper liner, that label would be still stuck in its place.
Lastly, looking at the Antiklang's pictures, I'd say that the instrument may have to be refretted, and possibly even fretboard shimmed in order to make it playable. That is a fairly involved and costly procedure, and if not done right, it would affect the instrument resale potential adversely.

----------


## vkioulaphides

In general, if something is too good to be true, it's probably none of the two ;-) If, for example, you find an Embergher for 400, you may ask yourself whether it was built in Markneukirchen-- or whether it has been run over by a bulldozer.

So, in short, shop merrily on but... Caveat emptor!

Cheers,

Victor

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## peterk

> So, in short, shop merrily on but... Caveat emptor!


Yes, nobody wants to have an _empty cave_. :Grin:

----------


## Jim Garber

Wow, Martin. You are right. This guy must be a fulltime seller with over 200,000 transactions but lots of negative ratings. If I were you, I would read thru some of those. You don't want to lose even 500 euros on a no-show sale. 

It is funny, but I read your answer to me as a poem or words to a song. Maybe we should write some music to it. It is called "The Pandora's Box Closed" by Martin V.  :Smile: 

I do not ever underestimate that there are other people out there who know as much as I do and others who either know a Calace or can find this thread with a Google search. 

Then again, you never do know: I bought my last Embergher on eBay for 145 euros and no other bidders. I still can't understand how it happened. OTOH I have paid full price my other ones.

----------


## Martin Veit

Jim, i think, i will be in the game for max. roundabout 300 -400 € 
Thats enough Money for a pokergame  :Wink: 
But be as it will be. 
I'm sure, over the next time, 
there are a lot of these bowlback mandolins in the german bay.
My guess is, that 10% are in good condition and hack, it's okay.
The puglisi, i've bought for 50€ have a curved fretboard but the bowlback
is without a crack.
My credo: "No risk, no fun"  :Smile: 

A, yes, "Pandoras Box"  :Redface: 
Very difficult for a non-native-speaker to translate 
those ornative words you sometimes uses in your replies.

I guess, i would although be a little bit grinning, 
if some native-spoken american will write as 
he talks frankly.
We say:"wie der Schnabel gewachsen ist" 
 - "how the beak has grown".
 I appreciate the fact, that my pidgin english is good for some jokes in the Cafè  :Grin:

----------


## trebleclef528

Looking at the " calace sellers" feedback he had 76,515 in the last 12 months and of that 0.47% were negatives mostly for low value items. Considering his total sales of 223,938 i think that an overall positive feedback rating of 99.4% is pretty good.
As to "is it a calace or not".... who knows?
merry Christmas and a happy new year from Scotland. Barbara and I are in Germany just now visiting her parents, not particularly looking forward to going home as we have 5 ceilings down in the house, carpets in the garden, and a lot of work to do following storm water damage.... but considering some people don't have a home, we can still smile and be very grateful for what we have.
Our best wishes to all at "The Cafe"
Ian

----------


## peterk

It could be argued that even if the auctioned mandolin were a Calace *copy*, that might make little difference from the perspective of music making with it. A luthier with sufficient skill to make such good copy, probably also had sufficient knowhow needed for crafting a *well sounding* instrument.
However, it goes without saying that the price and re-sale potential of a copy are expected to be inferior to the original instrument's market value.

----------


## Martin Veit

Shyt.  :Frown: 
It's beyond my limit  :Frown:

----------


## peterk

> Shyt. 
> It's beyond my limit


Don't worry, Martin, there will be something else priced more favourably. Just look at what Jim Garber got for 150 EUROs........an Embergher for crying out loud. :Confused: 

There seems to be a handful of bidders now who think they know what is that they are bidding on, thus I reckon the bids will continue to escalate.

----------


## Beanzy

Hang in there.... I got my lovely Calace for £295 earlier this year. 
They're out there, just need to wait for the right one to come by.

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## Martin Veit

545€ is okay, for an original Calace it seems a fair trade  :Crying: 
So far as i can see, the new owner is a dealer for old instruments.
My guess is that this mandolin will reappear somedays.

----------


## peterk

Here's a very nice looking bb mandolin by Brambilla on eBay.
http://www.ebay.it/itm/ANTICO-MANDOL...item2a35cfb4b5

Unfortunately, the instrument appears to have a major neck distortion which even a super thick fretboard shim has not corrected. Perhaps a neck replacement should have been done on it to start with.

----------


## Jim Garber

Funky reptile dentistry alert!!! That bridge is a mess too as well as the fretboard. For 750/$1033USD -- forget it. Too bad because originally it orob was a nice mandolin.

----------


## peterk

> Funky reptile dentistry alert!!! That bridge is a mess too as well as the fretboard. For €750/$1033USD -- forget it. Too bad because originally it orob was a nice mandolin.


Yes, that's a real shame because it looks like it had been a lovely mandolin before it fell on hard times. Right now, I think replacing the neck, replicating the headstock, levelling the prolapsed soundboard at the fretboard etc. would bring it to its former glory. Then the instrument could probably fetch very good money if sold. However, one would need to spend a goodly amount of money on those repairs, if professional level results are desired.

----------


## Shelldrake9

http://www.ebay.com/itm/301050114084...84.m1497.l2648

I just won this item and am awaiting the arrival of my first bowlback.  I've been reading lots of entries, especially in this thread, and found them very helpful.  I know I've taken a gamble buying an estate object from an antique dealer rather than an instrument seller but am hoping that the fact the body is intact and free of cracking and that there is significant pick wear around the sound hole might mean that this mando has been played and maintained.  The condition of the neck is what I'm worried about.

I have ordered a set of ultralight strings and other than that I think I am ready for anything coming through the door.  I would be very grateful for any advice from the forum for the first time vintage bowl back owner.  I would describe myself as an intermediate player. I have a regular gig with a performing Celtic band and another with a community fiddle orchestra.  I have a custom built archtop and a solid body mando for the former group and I am hoping this instrument might be playable enough for the latter.

Thanks in advance for any comments.

----------


## Jim Garber

Looks similar to a style 603 American Conservatory (Lyon & Healy) from about 1909.

----------

Shelldrake9

----------


## peterk

Congratulations on your first BB mandolin acquisition. That one looks like a solid instrument, and the amount you paid for it seems quite reasonable.

I do see one short crack at the bass side edge of the soundboard. However, that one could be very easy for a guitar shop to repair well. I also think you might need another bridge.....the existing one not only that it looks a bit sloppy, it may also be inappropriately high for a good string action. If you are faced with a moderately bowed neck problem, some of the playability could be restored by lowering the bridge and/or putting up with a bit higher string action.
It is good to make a thorough condition and playability assessment of the mandolin immediately upon its receipt, before doing any work on it. If there are some previously undisclosed serious problems with it, you might also wish to return the instrument for refund, if such option is given.

----------

Shelldrake9

----------


## brunello97

Hmmm.  

The action does appear to be quite high in Photo #7 (last image.)  There also appears to be a screw just above the neck-to-bowl joint in Photo #3.  These could be harbingers of some serious problems.

Hopefully, I am mistaken in what I think I am seeing. It is hard to tell exactly from these photos, so Peter's suggestion of immediate close inspection on arrival is good advice.

Fingers crossed....

Mick

----------

Shelldrake9

----------


## Jim Garber

For historical purposes, I have attached relevant photos.

FWIW that could possibly be the original bridge. I would, not worry too much about originality but would lean more for functionality and playability. 

This could be a nice sounding bowlback. Hopefully the neck angle is within range of playable. Let us know how it looks upon receipt.

That small bass side crack may not even need any repair at all. It could be just on the surface or else reinforced enough by the cross brace. OTOH if it moves with a small amount of pressure it should be attended to.

----------

Shelldrake9

----------


## peterk

> Hmmm.  
> 
> The action does appear to be quite high in Photo #7 (last image.)  There also appears to be a screw just above the neck-to-bowl joint in Photo #3.  These could be harbingers of some serious problems.
> 
> Mick


Mick, you've got a good eye, that indeed appears to be a screw (or a nail ?) driven into the neck base, which really calls for a very close examination of the neck-body joint.

----------


## peterk

> I would, not worry too much about originality but would lean more for functionality and playability.


Right on, Jim, I fully agree with that. Unless, of course, we are talking about a museum grade mandolin, or a valuable Embergher and such, where historical and/or investment/resale considerations neccessitate a genuine restoration approach.

----------


## Shelldrake9

Thanks, Mikk.  I see the screw now and agree that the action looks high.  I'll put my feeler gauges to work when it comes in and send better photos with measurements.  Thanks for having a look.

Finn

----------


## Shelldrake9

Thanks for the optimistic notes, Jim, but I am more concerned about he neck now given Mikk's astute observations above.  I agree with you and am not worried about the bass side blemish; the seller made the claim that the instrument is crack-free so I would be quite disappointed to discover that the mark is indeed a crack through the face.  Hard to tell by the photo.  I'll send some better ones when the mando arrives along with some measurements.  

My good friend and bandmate is turning his design prowess to insrrument-making and he is becomeing a first-rate luthier.  He made me a very beautiful archtop last year and I think I can persuade him to join me in a light restoration project. 

As always, the advice received in this forum is invaluable and I will look forward to sharing information when we get our mitts on this mando.  I think he and I will take on any light repairs ourselves with guidence from the bowlback community.

Thanks for welcoming this new project, Jim.

Finn

----------


## Shelldrake9

Thanks, Peter.  I am on the same page as you and Jim: I am a player and don't have much appetite for a wall-hanger that doesn't play well unless it's an heirloom, of course. I read with some interest the conversation in this thread on what motivates the acquisition of old mandolins and of course, the perfect storm occurs when you can return a magnificent old instrument to playability with due regard for authenticity and historical accuracy; for the mid-grade instrument like this one, the cost of returning it to playability may be some less than historical modifications which seems right to me if the alternative is the kindling pile.

BTW, I was very impressed with the photos you shared of your instruments, Peter.  You have some very beautiful mandolins.

Best regards from a fellow Ontarian mandolinist.

Finn

----------


## peterk

Thank you Finn, please keep us posted.

Here is a mandolin which could be consider Angelo Mannello's _capolavoro_:

----------


## Martin Veit

Heyo, me again in case of the "Emil Hofmann" mandolins.
Today, the tide has washed ashore a "new" E H mandolin into the german bay.
It's the same brand as is on the mandolin from Peter.
And the string-holder says "marcelli".

I've seen some marcelli mandolins on ebay. 
They look alike the one which is branded "E.H"
Maybe this is the conection, we are looking for.
I'm sure, that Emil Hofmann had bought some Instruments in Catania 
and maybe some few in Rome.

----------


## Martin Veit

Shyt, i forgot the pictures.
But, i think, i'm wrong. 
The tailpiece be no identity for the maker,
although there is an italian luthier namend "marchelli"

http://www.mandolinluthier.com/neapolitan-makers-alphabetic-3.htm

----------


## Jim Garber

I have handled that mandolin at the Met and it is impressive but I don't think it is all playable. Possibly the ultimate wall hanger.  :Smile: 

These kind of things are the inlayer's art pieces -- the ornamentation, while artistically impressive add little or nothing to production of tone and, in fact, might actually degrade tone. Sort of like Martin's Millionth guitar.

Frankly, I am much more taken with the understated masterpieces like this Embergher 5bis (1927).

----------


## peterk

Yes, I also think 5Bis is quite a hit form-wise and aesthetically. I would have been tempted by a Vallucci copy of it which is still making rounds on eBay, had it not been for some bowl stave repair splicing and soundboard cracks which didn't look too good on the pictures.

I've never held an Embergher mandolin in my hands. My Emil Hofmann "Belcanto" mandolin does have a fuller/meatier sound production than any of my mandolins from Naples. I guess that elongated/enlarged (and lightweight) bowl has some acoustic advantages, if only due to its larger resonator volume.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Shyt, i forgot the pictures.
> But, i think, i'm wrong. 
> The tailpiece be no identity for the maker,
> although there is an italian luthier namend "marchelli"


You are correct, Martin. Despite the Italian name, I have only seen that Marcelli taillpiece on German-made mandolins. That EH mandolin you picture above is merely a cartoon of an Embergher. Look at the scroll scratchplate on that one and compare to a real Embergher (attached).

----------


## brunello97

An interesting pair of comparisons, say, between the Hoffman and the 5b Embergher and the Mannello and the Millionith Martin and maybe a place for us to exercise some caution.

My hunch is that the Millionth Martin March might actually play well and sound pretty good.  It is, however, a clear example of the loss of ability (discretion?) in design sensibility.  It is a cartoon of the role of ornamentation to which Mannello is at the far other end of the spectrum.  Come to think of it, it is a cartoon of the understated elegance that the 999,999 Martin As demonstrated before it.

(Tonio Tsai might be a better example here, than the Martin, for discussion purposes. The highly blinged Martin bowls from the early days never seem that well integrated as design elements to me.)  The Manello is truly quite extraordinary-- there are lots of bad examples of over ornamented mandolins to compare it with.

Choosing between the understated (yet equally labor intensive) Embergher may be a nod towards design preferences--or perhaps the obvious playability.  But the Hoffman is also _understated_.  It perhaps is just less well executed understatement.   :Wink: 

To my eye, the front sides of most of the Embergher models look silly. Or maybe awkwardly composed is a better way of putting it. The Embergher backs, however, are almost always _unbelievably_ sexy. For me, 'choosing' between _this_ Mannello back and this Embergher back is an effort in enjoyable futility.   :Smile: 

Mick

----------

Jim Garber

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks for the parsing, Mick.  :Smile:

----------


## peterk

One design element which grates at my sense of "elegance" is the Embergher's tuner head "beer opener" protuberance. To my eye it just doesn't blend well with the modern (and very effective) slotted peghead he used.

----------


## brunello97

> One design element which grates at my sense of "elegance" is the Embergher's tuner head "beer opener" protuberance. To my eye it just doesn't blend well with the modern (and very effective) slotted peghead he used.


Ah.  It could just be me being a crank.  If I had a $1.99 Embergher (and my hands were about 3 glove sizes smaller) I may be playing a different tune.

Sometimes playing some Neapolitan melodies just calls for a little more exuberance out of your instrument.  I love playing different variations of "Whiskey Before Breakfast."  But preferably on my most _sober_ of mandolins.

Mick

----------


## peterk

Mick, if I had a $199 Embergher, let alone a $1.99 one, I'd be playing _musica erba azzura Napolitana_ with renewed gusto and abandon, whether the mandolin would have the "beer opener" head or not. :Grin:

----------


## Jim Garber

If only I could... I would give everyone a $1.99 Embergher. Alas!!

For your entertainment... 1896 Artistic Embergher... a little too ornate for me, tho stunning on some ways. Considerably more than $1.99 but no beer opener.

BTW there were Model No. 5 mandolins (no bis) but I do not have any examples in my jpeg library, just in the Embergher book.

----------


## brunello97

I like the fretboard / headboard inlay, Jim, but it is a bit of gilding on the lily.   I'm curious that this one doesn't display the classic Embergher recurve at the body / neck joint area.  Was that a later (post 1890s) development?

Mick

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## peterk

That ornate Embergher is a real tour de France of lutherie. :Grin: 
Probably as valuable as this Neapolitan gem:  :Mandosmiley: http://www.ebay.it/itm/mandolino-lui...item1c3af03e2c

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## brunello97

While we're on the topic of understated elegance, I think Sig. Embergher (and the Neapolitans and Cantenese) might have well taken note of what was going on in Kalamazoo at (roughly) the (same) time.

Sure, it is a banjo but it just doesn't get any better than that.  That white pickguard against the round rim is knee-buckling.  Sverre Fehn would have been proud.

Mick

----------


## peterk

I agree, that banJoe is very nicely designed. For my money, Gibson instruments have had fine design styling, as long as they stayed away from (anything)-burst colour schemes, and gratuitous scrolls and appendages. :Grin:

----------


## peterk

Here's an interesting old mandolin from Italy (eBAy):http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-ROMAN-MA...item338984388e
I can see having to spend very many tedious hours on repair and restoration of that thing. Would such labour be worth it ? 
Well, that is also a personal consideration. For one, I would perhaps embark on a long term restoration project of an older Vinaccia instrument, however, the subject mandolin has too much of an "artigianale" character which doesn't appeal to me.

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## Jim Garber

It is funny, Peter. At first I thought, man, that is too bad that this ornately decorated mandolin is in such bad shape. Then I looked more closely and I am not so sure that even the original inlays were done all that masterfully. I don't see much in the way of deftly done engraving on the pearl and, in fact, I am not sure what that yellowish material is inlaid on the fretboard.

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## Jim Garber

Speaking of Roman instruments... this is a Giulio Tartaglia model (not made by him) posted on *Lorenzo Lippi's Facebook page*. Nothing too super or pristine about it, really, just interesting since non-Embergher Romans are less common in general.

From Sr. Lippi:



> Very good mandolin in roman style (es. Embergher, Maldura, De Santis), early '900, label and signature "Giulio Tartaglia". 
> Completely original and restored. 
> Sounds very good and the fretboard has been rectified. 
> Great for professional use or for collection. 
> 
> Giulio Tartaglia was a celebrated virtuoso of the mandolin. At that time different musicians used to sign instruments with their name, instruments which were made by luthiers in accordance with their specifications. 
> It is not therefore an instrument made by Tartaglia, but an instrument signed by him and made by some luthier probably roman. In a similar mandolin I've found a brand Devenuti (famous roman luthier): in this one there is no trace of signature or mark, but the construction is of the highest quality.

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## peterk

> It is funny, Peter. At first I thought, man, that is too bad that this ornately decorated mandolin is in such bad shape. Then I looked more closely and I am not so sure that even the original inlays were done all that masterfully. I don't see much in the way of deftly done engraving on the pearl and, in fact, I am not sure what that yellowish material is inlaid on the fretboard.


Jim, that's what I also think that is ......the instrument appears to be a result of a lofty concept of rich ornamentation and opulence which was applied by the maker's insufficient skill and/or dedication. Nevertheless, people also cherish naïve art and folksy crafts, and who knows, the mandolin might have a major value as an object of art "artigianale" ?

BTW, that Tartaglia mandolin is really nice.

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## Shelldrake9

The eBay mando arrived today, my first BB that a number of you had a look at for me last week.  The body is intact and there are no cracks anywhere and no loose braces.  The tuning mechanisms all work (though they need maintenance) and all the inlay is intact; however the high action noted by Mick was caused by the neck-body join giving way.  There is a nail through the neck into the heel.

The neck appears to be pretty straight otherwise.  I measure the total bow at the tenth fret to be about .057" deep and given that there is a .025" gap in the neck join, I take that to mean the neck displacement will be out .027" if repaired.  Is this within tolerance for intonation?

Otherwise it's a 13" scale, 20 rib bowl, floating bridge, 1 1/8" nut, ebony fretboard with some nice inlay, no sinking in the face ( a slight arch, actually), minimal fretwear, canvass interior intact (no maker's mark), no chips or dings less the pick markings on the face, and it's badly in need of a cleaning.

I'll send some pics if I can figure out how to attach them.

Finn

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## Shelldrake9

I don't know if these pictures will post, but here are three images of the faulty body joint that was causing the high action that Mick noted on my recent ebay purchase.

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## Shelldrake9



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## Shelldrake9



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## Shelldrake9



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## peterk

Finn, I think you are looking at the full neck reset, for structural as well as playability reasons.
With the neck nicely reset, I think you might have to shave/level the fretboard a bit, but you should be able to get it perfectly straight because it seems to be thick enough for levelling. If you can reset the neck yourself, then you are OK. If you'd have to get some professional help, then the problem becomes harder to solve: I am not aware of anyone locally who can do that sort of a job well and reasonably priced.

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## Tavy

> I don't know if these pictures will post, but here are three images of the faulty body joint that was causing the high action that Mick noted on my recent ebay purchase.


Oh my, that does not look good: sorry to be the barer of bad news but that's going to be a major operation to fix (assuming it's typical Neapolitan style construction).

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## Jim Garber

John: I have seen a couple of different neck joints on these. I believe on the lower-end American ones the neck is one piece ending in a conical block that the ribs attach to. On the higher-end mandolins there is some sort of dovetail joint that the neck connects to a separate block. Are the Italian mandolins similar to that last one?

I wonder if there is some sort of emergency triage treatment for this mandolin that would be in line with its modest cost, even if it is the first situation. I also wonder what the condition of the top is like near the neck joint. I would think that the top might have bellied up a bit due to the neck joint opening.

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## peterk

Jim, if we look at one of the neck side pictures Finn had posted, the soundboard doesn't look like it has caved in.
However, even if the neck is reset, the remaining problem might still be the neck being bowed. If the neck relief is minor, that can be corrected by fretboard sanding/levelling. If major, then a shim becomes a consideration. 
Sadly, I've been in that sort of a predicament very recently where I have invested almost $200 into repairing a flawed mandolin, and the results (ie., Playability) were still lackluster. Eventually, I've managed to sell the mandolin for the same amount I bought it for, and the repair cost was my net loss. Actually, I view that as the cost of my education. :Mandosmiley:

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## Jim Garber

I agree that it will take some money and skill to get it playable, prob more than the value of the mandolin. Too bad.

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## brunello97

I actually haven't seen that many of these bowlbacks were the neck itself was actually bowed.  The neck joint / top collapse has been the more common culprit.  (Not to say a warped neck isn't the issue, here, it just doesn't look like it from Finn's photos--the FB looks bent but the neck _appears_ straight.)

I have had the fretboards off a number of Chicago bowlbacks and they all have had dovetail neck / block joints.  Even cheaper L+H models.  As Jim says, there were a number of different neck joints used and there is no guarantee in what this has.  

Taking the FB off isn't risking anything at this time and Finn can have a look and see what the joint is like.  A neck reset with the dovetail is not a huge ordeal, relatively speaking.

Jim and I have been in contact with a luthier / repairman near where I live in Ann Arbor.  His name is Andy Pursell and his is interested in taking on more work with bowlback mandolins.  Most of his repair work has been with violins, etc. as I understand it.

Here is his web address: Bayberry Music

Worth giving him a call, I think.

$$ of repair versus ultimate value is another question.  I have a soft spot for my mandolins.  I have a Gibson EM150 that has had a broken neck repaired _twice_.  Plays better than ever.  Can't really say how much do-re-mi I have in that instrument.  Not even concerned about it.

This probably isn't going to turn out to be a _Frantumatore_ under the best of circumstances, but I wouldn't throw in the towel yet.  Pretty wood on the mandolin...

Mick

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## Tavy

> I actually haven't seen that many of these bowlbacks were the neck itself was actually bowed.  The neck joint / top collapse has been the more common culprit.  (Not to say a warped neck isn't the issue, here, it just doesn't look like it from Finn's photos--the FB looks bent but the neck _appears_ straight.)
> 
> I have had the fretboards off a number of Chicago bowlbacks and they all have had dovetail neck / block joints.  Even cheaper L+H models.  As Jim says, there were a number of different neck joints used and there is no guarantee in what this has.


If it has a dovetail then you're in luck, the Neapolitan's all have one piece neck and neck-block (spanish heal) which means to reset you have to remove the top and then disassemble the ribs from the neck block.  Not fun.  However, even a dovetail-join reset is a time consuming - and hence relatively expensive - process.  Some of these were quite badly made too - which is to say the join was never very tight to begin with - so a bit of disassembly and some some shimming of the join will make things way more secure than they ever were originally.

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## Jim Garber

> Jim and I have been in contact with a luthier / repairman near where I live in Ann Arbor.  His name is Andy Pursell and his is interested in taking on more work with bowlback mandolins.  Most of his repair work has been with violins, etc. as I understand it.
> 
> Here is his web address: Bayberry Music


Hah! I sent Finn a PM about Andy P. Actually, I looked at his blog and he has a few violins but also fixed a Kay bass and did a couple of serious repairs including neck resets on flattop guitars. 

Once again, the big question is what a good repair person would charge. As John says, it is a lot of work in any case. Since you have around $100 into it already if the repair bill were $200 or so, that would top off the value of the bowlback. I would say $300+ is pushing it and you are better looking for a mandolin in better condition. They are out there.

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## brunello97

Yes, $3C ought to get you a decent mid-grade US bowl in playable condition. And like Peter said, you don't want to throw good money after bad.  A pity that the seller didn't reveal that nail.  Can't really figure what it was trying to accomplish in there anyhow.

John, you are right as usual about the relatively sloppiness of some of those dovetails, as least as far as what I've seen--and learned the hard way.  The one Martin bowl I had apart was predictably a lot tighter work. 

I haven't had a chance to get over and visit with Andy yet, but hope to later in the month.  I'll recommend he sign on board here at the Cafe.  Would love to have him and John M swapping stories here.......

Mick

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## Tavy

> Hah! I sent Finn a PM about Andy P. Actually, I looked at his blog and he has a few violins but also fixed a Kay bass and did a couple of serious repairs including neck resets on flattop guitars. 
> 
> Once again, the big question is what a good repair person would charge. As John says, it is a lot of work in any case. Since you have around $100 into it already if the repair bill were $200 or so, that would top off the value of the bowlback. I would say $300+ is pushing it and you are better looking for a mandolin in better condition. They are out there.


As you may have noticed, I stayed away from quoting a price for a reset: the reason being that it always takes so much longer than you expect  :Frown: 

I've just removed and reset the neck on a mandolinetto that (thankfully!) had a guitar style dovetail neck.  Had been previously badly repaired by a blacksmith with several large screws and a metal brace that the eBay seller had curiously forgotten to mention or photograph... took about 5 hours excluding the inevitable refret that's required afterwards.  Add about 6 hours for the refret, and at least 3 to set up afterwards... and it's going to add up.  Most of the neck-reset time is taken up by building up shims on the old dovetail and getting a decent fit.  Someone will have to figure out how to get that old nail out of there too.  So.... if someone offers to do it for $200 then bite their hand off (as long as they know what they're doing of course  :Wink:  )

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## Jim Garber

John: I was not estimating what the work would cost only if comparing the repair cost to the value of the mandolin. I have no clue what any luthier would charge esp since no one has seen what unseen issues are in this mandolin. I was just saying that if it cost under $200 it would be worth fixing this particular mandolin but if it went much higher it would be beyond the value of the instrument and that he might do much better buying something else that is in better shape.

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## peterk

This putative 1883 brothers Calace mandolin is interesting on several levels, such as the absence of a pickguard.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/MANDOLIN-F-LL...item2c7a028f68

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## JeffD

So check me, my untrained eyes see a neck repair where the peg head was re-attached. Or a peg head was attached.

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## Jim Garber

Phew! This one is a hard one. Doesn't look like any Calace to me but seller is saying 1883 and I have seen very few from back then. I agree with Jeff that that neck joint looks suspect and it looks like there is a nail or screw in the scarf joint. That doesn't look like the standard neck join for  Neapolitan mandolins. Obviously the tuners and bridge are replacements.

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## Tavy

> So check me, my untrained eyes see a neck repair where the peg head was re-attached. Or a peg head was attached.


Definitely looks like a badly repaired break - though done long ago and clearly holding OK.

Great pity the label isn't shown in any of the images.

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## Jim Garber

I checked my files and the earliest dated Calace I have is 1883. Compare to the eBay one. I have some doubts that the eBay one is truly from the Calace shop.

I think one of the oddest features of the eBay mandolin is the mastic/pearl border. I would love to see something similar in one from the same era.

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## Martin Veit

Jim, i agree with you.
I think, this ebay one is a fake.
The form of the head is very untypical to the calce type.
http://www.mandolinluthier.com/calace_family.htm
And no scratchplate at all.
Why does this italian guy offers his instrument on the german ebay?

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## peterk

When their father died in 1876, the brothers Calace inherited his workshop, the tools, wood, unfinished instrumets etc. At that time the elder brother was 17 years of age and Raffaele was only 13, hardly in a position to continue running the father's business seamlessly, let alone develop their own unique mandolin form. Even seven years later, in 1883, they might have still used the old Calace workshop forms and ornamentation, including a florid type of soundboard MOP edging. (Incidentally, I have never seen any pictures of Antonio Calace's mandolins.)
Therefore, I do not think that "1883 brothers Calace" mandolin should be hastily dismissed as a fake, although there are valid questions there to be asked as to its provenance as well as apparent oddities.

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## Shelldrake9

Thanks for all the great feedback Jim, Tavy, Peter and Mick. Given what I've read above, it seems the cost of a professional reset will likely exceed the value of the mando and therefore would be throwing good money after bad. I have determined not to have this mandolin repaired at a shop. I'll keep Andy P's contact for future reference with thanks. 

Luckily, my bandmate and good chum, Salvatore DeMeo, is a budding luthier with a fully outfitted workshop, whom I have convinced of the merits of this restoration project. 

To my eye, the separation looks clean with no cracks or faults in any of the major components. The body has an integral neck block and the neck fits in with what appears to be a simple join. I think this is a repair that we can undertake ourselves.  may be pretty straightforward if we can disassemble the neck, body and fretboard cleanly.  Then we'll look at how big an issue the nail presents.  It will be an adventure for sure with no great cost if we fail.  If the reset goes well, the intonation will determine whether the neck needs more work (ie fret job or FB levelling, both of which Sal can do). 

I'll post photos of the process as we go along/run into trouble and solicit feedback as required.  Hopefully I can make application into the Order of the Bowl later in the season.

Cheers, with gratitude,

Finn

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## peterk

Good show, Finn, I think that's a fine approach to not only dealing with the problem on hand, but also to acquiring the experience which might come very handy on future mandolin projects.
Best of luck, and please share your repair experience highlights.

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## brunello97

Finn, that sounds exciting.  

If you search carefully here, there is LOTS of good information on going through the steps that you have outlined for yourself.  Our friends Dave Hynds as well as John Maddock, aka Tavy, have been selfless in providing informative and well documented posts on their repair efforts.  They have been extraordinarily helpful with me in the small range of repair work that I have attempted.  But with their (and others') help, I have raised more than a few mandolins from the dead.  It is a very satisfying process.

You can do it.

Mick

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## brunello97

BTW a couple Calace labels to add to the conversation, one from 1880 and another from 1892, which looks to be the same label design as in Jim's example from '83 and the scraped up ebay one.

The ebay mandolin looks pretty sketchioso for even an early Calace.  Pretty nasty work all the way around: bowl forming, soundhole, overall design sensibility.  But why / how would someone fake something like this?  Scrape an old label out of a Calace carcass and glue into into a nasty old mandolin?

At least no one is using the dreaded V word to describe that neck joint.  :Smile: 

Mick

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## peterk

The maker's label in the subject mandolin seems the same as the one Jim posted for another 1883 mandolin, which one would expect, if both labels were genuine. "Fu Antonio" is written very prominently on them, as the boys continued to honour their father prematurely deceased seven years prior to those days.
The 1880 label which Mick has posted above is particularly interesting. At that time Nicola was 21 years old, and Raffaele 17.......it is very likely Nicola had to run the show then, although I'd like to know what other skilled help was employed in the shop.
In order to understand better the evolution of the classical (fratelli) Calace form, it would be helpful to have pictures of that 1880 mandolin as well as some by Antonio Calace. I keep looking for the latter ones, but nothing has surfaced so far.

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## Tavy

I wonder if anyone can tell me what this is:

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## peterk

> I wonder if anyone can tell me what this is:


I am glad I could be of service: I think that appears to be a bowlback mandolin by Fred Martin.

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## Graham McDonald

Mugwumps lists him as active around 1900 with the instruments possibly made by A C Fairbanks. The name doesn't appear in any Cadenza advertising I can find. Nice looking mandolin though. Has it turned up in the UK?

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## jdsobol

Here is the Neapolitan mandolin that I have up on ebay now. It has certain features of the Calace style, including the rosewood-veneered neck, tuners, headstock shape, engraved silver-foil tailpiece mute (what do you call those things anyhow?). Neck pulled forward, unfortunately. Opinions and observations welcome...

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## brunello97

Not meaning to skip over your post and question, JD, but I'd like to address John's question first and then come on back to you...

That (Fred) Martin, is very curious, John.  The body shape in your photo 2 appears to be quite deep with a very striking contour line from neck to tailpiece in section.  Am I reading that correctly or is it an odd camera angle?  Do you have any other views?

I have typically liked the neck 'collar' detail and this one has a great profile to it.  Fairbanks is probably a good guess for who was active Boston at that time.   Could be someone who worked there who made a few of his own line?

I had a Fairbanks for awhile and it was a proper nice mandolin.  Sold to a woman in France or maybe it was Switzerland.  It didn't resemble this much in any way other than the cleanliness and attention to detail that we have come to expect from the Boston mandolin makers.  Vega didn't appear out of thin air.

I've got a nickel that says Jim G has one of these Freds in his files.

Mick

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## Tavy

> Mugwumps lists him as active around 1900 with the instruments possibly made by A C Fairbanks. The name doesn't appear in any Cadenza advertising I can find. Nice looking mandolin though. Has it turned up in the UK?


Well it's just turned up at my house  :Smile:  - bought on whim not really knowing what I was getting into (must stop doing that, might turn me into another Jim Garber!) - nice high quality manufacture - no past repairs that I can see, nor any really needed now other than new strings and a quick setup.  Browsing the web seems to confirm the Fairbanks link: stylistically there are several very similar looking ones around, and structurally it's very Vega-like (low arched, almost flat top), and of course by 09 Fairfanks was now Vega.  Unless the 09 was a serial number for F. Martin of course.... I guess we'll never know, although it looks to be part of the manufacture not an after market thing like the Martin makers plate.

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## Tavy

> Not meaning to skip over your post and question, JD, but I'd like to address John's question first and then come on back to you...
> 
> That (Fred) Martin, is very curious, John.  The body shape in your photo 2 appears to be quite deep with a very striking contour line from neck to tailpiece in section.  Am I reading that correctly or is it an odd camera angle?  Do you have any other views


Here we go:

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## brunello97

Thanks for those additional photos, John.  The bowl shape looks much more 'normal' than from that other angle. It looks to be in beautiful condition.  I really like the top edge and soundhole banding.   I also like how the top curves of scratch plate profile turn back in a bit before they meet the sound hole.  That little extra detail shows off the pretty binding even more.  A nice detail to copy.... :Wink: 

Let's us know when you have it tuned up and playing.  My hunch is that this orphan left at your door is going to sound very good.

Mick

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## peterk

> Here is the Neapolitan mandolin that I have up on ebay now. It has certain features of the Calace style, including the rosewood-veneered neck, tuners, headstock shape, engraved silver-foil tailpiece mute (what do you call those things anyhow?). Neck pulled forward, unfortunately. Opinions and observations welcome...
> 
> [/ATTACH]


That mandolin looks to me like it was made by a skilled craftsman. For all you know, it could be a Vinaccia or a Calace. If it's structurally sound, then I'd evaluate its tonal quality. If very good or better, I'd probably keep it and have its neck fixed regardless of its provenance. If not, I'd sell it like you are doing it now.

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## Jim Garber

That would make sense, Graham. In fact the first thing I did was look at pics of the metal Fairbanks plates. I have a couple of Fairbanks banjos.

I do not have any Fred Martin mandolins in my files.

There is a *Fred Martin Model Fairbanks banjo* here at Maple Leaf Music.

Some more info on Fred Martin:




> This Fairbanks Banjo Electric Imperial Fred Martin Model No. 1 was made sometime between 1897 and 1899 by the Fairbanks Company for Fred Martin, a noted banjo instructor in Boston. He commissioned a line of banjos that lived up to the Fairbanks name, but with simpler appointments, so that the instruments could be purchased by his students.


Further evidence quoted from Philip Gura's America's Instrument: The Banjo in the 19th Century (attached).

Even more on a fancy Fred Martin/Fairbanks banjo *here*.

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## Jim Garber

This Fairbanks mandolin is somewhat similar with different headstock, purfling and fretboard end but similar neck collar. That collar is unusual and resembles my Larson-made Maurer BTW tho I don't know if there is any connection between the two shops.

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## brunello97

Similar fretboard end on that Fairbanks as on the one I had, Jim, but I do like the pickguard on this one (and John's) better.  L+H used that same rounded collar detail as well.  The collar on my FBanks had a sharp point to it.  I wonder if they had specs for this with different model years, etc.

Cool score about The Fred.  If they were making him banjos, why not some mandolins?  He probably had the students.

Link to info on Cuban Mahogany from the MLM banjo... 

Mick

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## peterk

I guess this may look like an Embergher made mandolin, although its very high gloss finish brings to mind spray gun applied polyurethane lacquer.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EMBERGHER-BO...item258809f071

However, no maker's label is shown,  and I can't see the Embergher stamp on the headstock.

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## brunello97

> I guess this may look like an Embergher made mandolin....


Muy sketchioso.

Mick

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## peterk

Although I probably can't tell differences between a Hofmann's "Belcanto" mandolin and an Embergher, in this particular instance I just can not help it: It looks odd.

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## peterk

The seller has revised their mandolin ID now as "Embergher like".
To me the instrument looks like a typical German mass produced article around the mid 20th century.
I think owing to a larger bowl and robust construction, they make decent playing instruments which are often found very well preserved.
However, their thick high gloss bowl/neck lacquer I find quite disagreeable.
Some day when I find enough strength for it, I should strip my "Belcanto" off its lacquer completely, and then finish it myself with something nicer to the eye as well as the touch.

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## Tavy

> This Fairbanks mandolin is somewhat similar with different headstock, purfling and fretboard end but similar neck collar. That collar is unusual and resembles my Larson-made Maurer BTW tho I don't know if there is any connection between the two shops.


Thanks for all the great info Jim!

I had a look through Les Paul's book on the Larson's and managed to find one Larson made instrument with a collar like that which was made for the Stahl brand - however these are described as rosewood-stained-maple backed which I don't believe is the case here.  I've also found some evidence for the close relationship between A. C. Fairbanks and Fred Martin - for example he appears in the Fairbanks publication: "Portraits of Celebrated Artists Using the Whyte-Laydie Banjo".  So I guess there was some mutual back-scratching going on here to promote each other.

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## Jim Garber

> Here is the Neapolitan mandolin that I have up on ebay now. It has certain features of the Calace style, including the rosewood-veneered neck, tuners, headstock shape, engraved silver-foil tailpiece mute (what do you call those things anyhow?). Neck pulled forward, unfortunately. Opinions and observations welcome...


I am not all that sure I see the sole connection to Calace -- in fact I see more of a resemblance to Vinaccia mandolins. The veneered necks were common to many Napoli-built mandolins and there were many makers who either were _alievi_ of the Vinaccia shop or blatantly copied the style and attributes. Though it is altogether possible that there are some unlabelled Vinaccias and Calaces I would be really careful in attributing to the shops unless there is some concrete connections.

In general -- and I know there must be exceptions -- I think the major shops in this period did not often make instruments sold wholesale, at least not as frequently as the American shops/factories seemed to do in this period.

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## peterk

Here's 1981 Pasquale Pecoraro's mandolin a la Embergher for sale on eBay Italy. The BIN price is 10,000 Euro. I figure one could get two genuine upper echelon Embergher mandolins in excellent condition for that sort of money. Well, perhaps I am wrong about that.
http://www.ebay.it/itm/Mandolino-da-...item3a8a124b7b

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## Jim Garber

Peter: There were two luthiers who worked in the Embergher studio and who took over after Luigi passed: Domenico Cerrone and Pasquale Pecoraro. I believe that the 1940's Embergher 5bis mandolins (and others of the high end) were made primarily by Cerrone. The Cerrones still had Embergher labelling but Pecoraro eventually left, after the Embergher shop closed, to build under his own name.

From Alex Timmerman's *embergher.com site*:




> In 1935 Embergher decided to close the shop, while the production of instruments continued in the atelier. On the 16th February of 1938 he decided to officially appoint Domenico Cerrone as his successor. Embergher was then 82 years old.
> 
> With Domenico Cerrone the production of the Embergher line was prolonged with the same artistic skill and acoustic refinement as before. The line of offered instruments even expanded with the fabrication of guitars and violins after the Stradivari model.





> In 1954, after Domenico's death on the 21th of November, his son Giannino (b.15-6-1924 - d.1993) succeeded him. He was joined by his nephew Pascuale Pecoraro and Loreto Ranaldi (b. 1935). It would be the last period of activity of the Embergher atelier, since in 1960 the atelier in Arpino and the shop in Rome at the 'Via Belsiana N. 7', closed its doors for good. The shop at 'Via Belsiana N. 7' had been part of the Embergher firm since the earliest known mandolin (a student type B) labelled with the Belsiana address, was sold there in 1915. It has been acknowledged that most of the instruments of the Mandolin family during this last period were made by Pascuale Pecoraro who, together with Giannino Cerrone and Loreto Ronaldi had learned the craft under Domenico Cerrone. It is also stated that Pecoraro, a gifted luthier as well, worked during the last years the atelier was led by Embergher, worked under the guidance of the maestro himself. Giannino Cerrone was, besides being concerned with running the business, also successful as a (guitar) string maker and a luthier as can be proved by the quality of his 'Embergher' mandolins. During the 1955 "Concorso di Liuteria Contemporanea" in Genova he received an honourable acknowledgement from the jury about the mandolins that were sent in for the competition: because of their unsurpassed standard the instruments were place outside the concourse. 
> 
> Later Pasquale Pecoraro (1907 - 1987) would go his way, and up to in the eighties, continue making fine Roman instruments and although he permitted himself some liberties in the overall design, his mandolins have always been regarded as Embergher mandolins. Some labels in Pecoraro's instruments reveal that he worked in Rome at the 'Via Francesco Bonabede 279' and at the 'Via Fransesco Secondo Beggiato No 5.


I have played a couple of Pecoraro mandolins and have two friends who also have lovely 1940 Cerrone-made Emberghers. That price, while on the high side, is not out of line for a perfectly set up 5bis Embergher.

BTW the No. 6 was just a more ornate 5bis mandolin.

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## brunello97

Wasn't Sig. Pecoraro the heir to the Embergher line?  I imagine this is probably a fine instrument.  

I have no opinion on the price, though the spedizione é gratuita.  That ought to save you un paio di vongole.

Mick

Oops.  Sono in ritardo alla festa.....

----------


## Jim Garber

Hah! Mick... someday I will learn enough Italian to actually understand all your jokes. For right now it seems that you are wanting to trade that Pecoraro for a clam chowder and eating it will make you late for the festival.  :Smile:

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## brunello97

Oooh.  I love clam chowder.  Never really took to the Manhattan version, but wouldn't ever pass it by either.

I've been to the Union Oyster House in Boston a couple times.  How would you like to have that place as your corner bar?

I realized after I had followed up with some information about PP that you had already loaded in.....

Mick

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## Jim Garber

This could easily turn into "Bowls of Note". Next time you are in New York, Mick, we should go to the Oyster Bar in Grand Central for an Oyster Pan Roast and a plate of raw. If only I can translate that into one of your many languages... and now back to our regularly scheduled program...

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## brunello97

That's a deal, Jim.   :Smile: 

We can _combine_ topics on the thread (and I can procrastinate a little longer on my lesson plans for tomorrow's studio....)

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> This putative 1883 brothers Calace mandolin is interesting on several levels, such as the absence of a pickguard.
> http://www.ebay.de/itm/MANDOLIN-F-LL...item2c7a028f68


This "Calace" sold for 121. The Market has spoken.

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## peterk

Well, in my view that putative brothers Calace mandolin needed a new neck and a new head cum tuning machines, a new pickguard recreated, and then some more usual fixes. That is a very high priced proposition for a mandolin that may not even sound particularly well, and may not fetch more than $500 after a $1,000 (or more) investment into it. If the neck was not butchered, I would have been tempted.

----------


## peterk

There is a mandolin for sale on eBay with a label by brothers Vinaccia, sons of Pasquale. Interestingly, the label also states that Carlo Munier is their nephew.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINACCIA-ant...item5afa5f2885
The seller says his workshop "restored" the mandolin, although the nature and extent of such restoration is not specified.  
The frets are unmarked which is kinda unusual. I also find the soundhole rosette and the pickguard quite modern looking, which leads me to question whether the entire mandolin soundboard, including the bridge, was replaced. Lastly, perhaps someone more knowledgeable about Vinaccia mandolins than I am can weigh in on the authenticity of the apron MOP inlays.

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## Jim Garber

This is being sold by and prob worked on by Sam Musical Instrument Workshop, one of the more active of the Taiwan-Vietnam ebay sellers. I would say that the body and the neck/headstock were original but that the bridge and fretboard were replaced. I believe that that inlay was also added by the workshop as well. I think also that the whole instrument was refinished. 

This workshop likes to make their old instruments look new again. You can see a few others like this. I am guessing that they buy vintage instruments in bad shape and them rework them. This one also seems to have an additional label below the Vinaccia one saying "P. LePore - Napoli, New York, Chicago" which may be an old repair label so it is possible that this repair person might have done some modification as well. 

I am not 100% sure if this is from the Vinaccia workshop originally tho it is altogether possible. The headstock is different from others I have seen but sort of interesting and pleasing in shape to me.

Yes, Carlo Munier was related to the Vinaccias. There are bowlbacks with his name on it as maker/seller.

----------


## peterk

My gut feeling is that the only thing "Vinaccia" in that instrument is the bowl bottom, sans the inlay, and the label. 
I can't be sure about this, but does it look to you that there is a bead of clear silicone sealant which fills the gap between the apron bottom edge (tail end) and the staves ? See pic no.2 above.

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## Jim Garber

You might be right. I don't think I want to buy it just to find out, tho.

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## brunello97

That could be an all new top or else it was treated to some very _un-random_, very _un-hippie_ sanding regimine with an aggressive power tool.  The top cant seems like it was erased.  The rosette appears new as well.  

Headstock does look a bit odd, but there was quite a bit of variety in the Vinaccia work once the family started to splinter.  Neck joint looks very tight for a replacement.  An all new top, neck and inlay?  Sounds crazy but...

I'd like to find out more about the mysterious P LePore.  There's a thread about a Lepore mandolin here.  But it seems of another age.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Mick: I think you did find out who LePore is. I was assuming it was an old repair label and it sounds as if it is a recent repair label -- maybe a subsidiary of the Sam Musical Instrument empire.

From the 2007 thread you referenced:



> According to a search on EBay for 'inlaid' Lepore instruments are 'added to' by Sams Musical Instrument Workshp in Kaohsiung City, Taiwan.

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## peterk

I've found a pickguard similar to the one on Sam's "Vinaccia". It belongs to an unremarkable looking mandolin (nameless) which has just sold on eBay for 15.50 Euro.

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## Jim Garber

I have seen these pickguards on Midland mandolins, like *this one*.

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## peterk

> I have seen these pickguards on Midland mandolins, like *this one*.


I think I've got the scoop now: Wurlitzer was buying mandolins from the Vinaccias, and then they would market them as their "Midland" brand. :Grin:

----------

Jim Garber

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## brunello97

The wise Bowlanado would keep an eye on Wurlitzer mandolins.  They bought from a _lot_ of people.  Plenty of drek, but also some brilliant instruments.  The Midlands, however, were not.

Still, 15 euros?  I work with some German guys who smoke that much cheese up in cigarettes in a single day.

Mick

----------


## peterk

The old bowlback mandolin market is utterly neurotic. People expect to get $200+ for a veritable piece of trash, and at the same time our friend Jim Garber gets a genuine Embergher for $199. However, all those mandolins have one thing in common: their owners keep the old rusty and rotten strings, be it all 3 or 6 of them, at full tension, so that the mandolin is kind of in tune, just in case......besides, it's deemed a good selling point to have (some) original strings fully wound up on a 100 yr old instrument. The week mandolins had eventually snapped in two, thus it is only the strong and well built ones which have survived a century long tensile stress test of that nature. :Grin:

----------


## Tavy

> The old bowlback mandolin market is utterly neurotic. People expect to get $200+ for a veritable piece of trash, and at the same time our friend Jim Garber gets a genuine Embergher for $199. However, all those mandolins have one thing in common: their owners keep the old rusty and rotten strings, be it all 3 or 6 of them, at full tension, so that the mandolin is kind of in tune, just in case......besides, it's deemed a good selling point to have (some) original strings fully wound up on a 100 yr old instrument. The week mandolins had eventually snapped in two, thus it is only the strong and well built ones which have survived a century long tensile stress test of that nature.


I particularly like the adverts that read: "complete with original strings", or "just needs one new string to complete".  No doubt such instruments only know one tune: the tetanus rag  :Smile:

----------

Bob Clark, 

brunello97

----------


## peterk

> I particularly like the adverts that read: "complete with original strings", or "just needs one new string to complete".  No doubt such instruments only know one tune: the tetanus rag


He, he, well said, John. Seriously, we do need to ensure our tetanus vaccination is up to date.........those vile rusty old strings can draw blood easily when we are removing them.

----------


## peterk

Here's another D. Maratea mandolin, for mere 399 Euro BIN price:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/Antico-mandol...item4acefd1ee7

The seller claims the instrument was " completely restored".
However, what I see on their pictures is:
(1) The bridge has gone south.
(2) The pickguard area of the soundboard seems to have caved in.
(3) Very liberal use of lacquer all over.

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## brunello97

Despite the condition it is an interesting label on the Domenico Maratea.  The Vico Cappella address is a different one from what he shared with Michele Maratea on Vico Magnocavallo.  Have another address for MM as well.  I need to pin those locations down relative to the dates on the labels.

Label also has what seems Domenico's signature.  The Parisian notation and address is worth a sleuth or two.

Mick

----------


## peterk

The label is interesting indeed.  It looks like Maratea had someone (E. Marovelli ?) in Paris sell his instruments, at the address 35 Faubourg Poissonniere. What is also peculiar is that they seem to refer to the France's capital as "Paris" as opposed to the more common Italian version "Parigi".
Here's 35 Faubourg Poissonniere today, where Maratea's cumpare/socio Marovelli might have held a shop.

----------


## Tavy

> Here's another D. Maratea mandolin, for mere 399 Euro BIN price:
> http://www.ebay.it/itm/Antico-mandol...item4acefd1ee7
> 
> The seller claims the instrument was " completely restored".
> However, what I see on their pictures is:
> (1) The bridge has gone south.
> (2) The pickguard area of the soundboard seems to have caved in.
> (3) Very liberal use of lacquer all over.


Action looks high as well (like the price).

----------


## peterk

> Action looks high as well (like the price).


If the fretboard/pickguard area of the soundboard is caved in, and the bridge being positioned on the cant, then one would expect the string action height of the order of centimeters, not millimeters. :Wink:

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## peterk

Here's an interesting 1905 mandolin by Luigi Doriga, and it is similar to the De Meglio "sistema". However, there are some differences. The pickguard inlay is more elaborate. There is a string tensioner on the nut side as well, a feature I've never seen on the De Meglios.
The tulipwood (?) binding of the soundboard is exceptionally nice. The headstock is flared out.
Since the Dorigo's workshop goes back to 1865 (Signor Casa Fondata :Grin: ), perhaps it was the DeMeglio clan which had adopted the Dorigo "sistema" ? :Confused: 
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/ANCIENNE-MAND...item25889b4a65

----------


## peterk

The same eBay.de seller that sold this mandolin in an auction in late Dec. last year, has just relisted the same looking instrument.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Musikinstrume...item566104435e

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## brunello97

Well, Peter, that Dorigo is dated 1905, but it made me look into my files and I found a 'DeMeglio' style Dorigo with label dated 1891, which is two years before the earliest DeMeglio of the few dozen examples in our 'DeM data base' that John, Jim and I have been collating.  However that mandolin's SN is 1536, so we might assume DeMeglio was active for some time before '93.

Now, the DeMeglio labels boast that their casa was fondata in 1800, or 60 years before the Dorigos.  However, all the Dorigos in my files are in the DeMeglio style.  Despite their labeling it is hard to know which of these Italian 'makers' actually did make mandolins.

Interesting question about the Dorigo / DeMeglio relationship, if there was one.  More information collecting work to done...

Mick

----------


## peterk

Thank you Mick, your archives are greatly appreciated when trying to do mandolin archeology.

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## Martin Veit

Peter,

the same seller on ebay.de sold al last the calace mandolin.
I don't know his sources, but you can bet, that this guy has learnt, how much money is 
to make by a good conditioned ol' bowlback ;-)

----------


## Martin Jonas

We've had a number of good previous discussions on De Melgio bowlbacks and the plethora of clones, copies and related designs.  This one for example.

From what I've seen, Dorigo seems to go for a higher market segment than De Meglio themselves, as his mandolins are more elaborately finished and aesthetically more refined.  One further step removed from De Meglio (and probably one further step up the quality ladder), but still clearly in the same vein, was Umberto Ceccherini who took some key De Meglio elements but used a quite different bowl shape, no side vents, different headstock design and - of course - the suspended second soundboard.  My guess from the sheer numbers of instruments surviving would be that De Meglio were essentially mass-produced with Ceccherini (and Dorigo?) taking that basic design and refining it to a master luthier quality.

The telling detail is to compare Ceccherinis to the "higher" De Meglio models (2, 3 ...).  Both are more elaborate and more decorated than the basic De Meglio Model 1A but where in the Ceccherinis this is also an aesthetic improvement, in the De Meglios it's the opposite.  Higher De Meglio models are generally pretty crude visually: elaborate workmanship but no eye for elegant design.

Martin

----------


## Martin Veit

Peter, its definitly the same instrument.
I've checked the auction photos and they are just the same.
The prize last year was 545€.
I believe, he guesses, that he will get more fee this time.
That stinks  :Confused:

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## peterk

> Peter, its definitly the same instrument.
> I've checked the auction photos and they are just the same.
> The prize last year was 545€.
> I believe, he guesses, that he will get more fee this time.
> That stinks


Well, Martin, we can't be sure about the reasons for relisting the mandolin, although the first thing that comes to mind is that the instrument was returned by its buyer. That in turn would augment the caution about that auction. Antiklang sells huge amounts of _schrott_ every day, therefore amongst all that feedback I couldn't find any trace of the previous sale. Perhaps there's none.

----------


## peterk

> We've had a number of good previous discussions on De Melgio bowlbacks and the plethora of clones, copies and related designs.  This one for example.
> 
> From what I've seen, Dorigo seems to go for a higher market segment than De Meglio themselves, as his mandolins are more elaborately finished and aesthetically more refined.  One further step removed from De Meglio (and probably one further step up the quality ladder), but still clearly in the same vein, was Umberto Ceccherini who took some key De Meglio elements but used a quite different bowl shape, no side vents, different headstock design and - of course - the suspended second soundboard.  My guess from the sheer numbers of instruments surviving would be that De Meglio were essentially mass-produced with Ceccherini (and Dorigo?) taking that basic design and refining it to a master luthier quality.
> 
> The telling detail is to compare Ceccherinis to the "higher" De Meglio models (2, 3 ...).  Both are more elaborate and more decorated than the basic De Meglio Model 1A but where in the Ceccherinis this is also an aesthetic improvement, in the De Meglios it's the opposite.  Higher De Meglio models are generally pretty crude visually: elaborate workmanship but no eye for elegant design.
> 
> Martin


Martin, I think you've nailed it down good.

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## brunello97

I have a hunch a link this listing of French luthiers has been posted before but for those who haven't mined these catalogs, there is a host of fascinating information.  Mostly French but there a number of Italian builders listed from export shops serving the French market, I suppose.

Page 69 of Ullmann Catalog from 1907 lists a range of Luigi Dorigo mandolins for sale, certified by M. Jules Cottin.  

Mick

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## brunello97

BTW this handsome Ceccherini sold recently on ebay.uk.  The advertisement had some decent photos including a nice aft view of the double top.

Mick

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## peterk

> Page 69 of Ullmann Catalog from 1907 lists a range of Luigi Dorigo mandolins for sale, certified by M. Jules Cottin.  
> 
> Mick


Interesting stuff. It would also appear that a fine "art" of commercial endorsements was alive and well in the_ fin de siècle_ France: Jules Cottin, a mandolin virtuoso, pedagogue and composer, vouched for Dorigo mandolins' goodness and soundworthiness.   :Mandosmiley:

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## brunello97

> ...The telling detail is to compare Ceccherinis to the "higher" De Meglio models (2, 3 ...).  Both are more elaborate and more decorated than the basic De Meglio Model 1A but where in the Ceccherinis this is also an aesthetic improvement, in the De Meglios it's the opposite.  Higher De Meglio models are generally pretty crude visually: elaborate workmanship but no eye for elegant design.
> 
> Martin


Beauty, of course, in the eye of the beholder.  I don't have any Type 3 DeMeglios in my files. These make for a pretty intense pairing, though. My nod would clearly go for the Ceccherinis in this comp, but where elegance v crudeness begins is open for discussion. I wouldn't be scoffing at the DeMeglios in comparison here.

Mick

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## PiccoloPrincipe

Yes, I find these disturbing  at first glance. 
Who knows...

It may have at one point been a Rembrandt, but should you strip it all away and add things to it, is it still a Rembrandt?

Perfect example of over-restoration. The inlays on the fascia at the base are not original.

Perhaps worth contacting them to see their answers, and therefore, level of integrity.
I hate to make judgements without the facts or viewing. The internet can only do so much.. (And can often do too much!)

I did contact the fellow on the Domenico Maratea.

One can argue cost / value. Something is worth whatever one is willing to pay for it as you all know. These early and important mandolins deserve such high prices on the market in my opinion. I am a big fighter for them, so you must excuse me!

But economics 101 cannot be disregarded. The schools, luthiers, and the instrument is simply not as well known as the guitar (as example) and values still have not taken hold...but they will someday as the mandolin is beginning to make a resurgence after falling out of favor 100yrs ago.

At east that is my excuse to my girl for buying them!  :Smile: 

Anyway, he responded in large caps " IT WAS COMPLETELY RESTORED BY A PROFESSIONAL LUTHIER!!!!!!"

...using  a polyresin (poliresina).. vis a vis, lacquer. 

EVERYWHERE. 

He didn't respond to my question about the concavity.
To add insult to injury, a search online found it advertised within a classified ad for 300, with a strange coating and concavity on the table/soundboard.

Makes me angry. It can be corrected properly, but it hurts the profession. Same with art restorers.
So much of what must be done is repairing the work of past "restorers/conservators" .


It is  shame as it is a nice piece. One doesn't come across D.Maratea often. I've never come across one. I of course am not wealthy, or ignorant to "the market," but from my experience in art and antiques after all this time, if it is worth it to me and fits my criterion, I will pay a premium.

As we all do I suppose.
Anyway, I hate to be a gossip.
 FWIW





> There is a mandolin for sale on eBay with a label by brothers Vinaccia, sons of Pasquale. Interestingly, the label also states that Carlo Munier is their nephew.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINACCIA-ant...item5afa5f2885
> The seller says his workshop "restored" the mandolin, although the nature and extent of such restoration is not specified.  
> The frets are unmarked which is kinda unusual. I also find the soundhole rosette and the pickguard quite modern looking, which leads me to question whether the entire mandolin soundboard, including the bridge, was replaced. Lastly, perhaps someone more knowledgeable about Vinaccia mandolins than I am can weigh in on the authenticity of the apron MOP inlays.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> BTW this handsome Ceccherini sold recently on ebay.uk.  The advertisement had some decent photos including a nice aft view of the double top.


That one is as close as it gets to a twin of my own Ceccherini, barring a minor difference in the rosette inlay shapes.  I prefer mine on grounds of condition, though: it looks as if it came from the Alban Voigt shop yesterday.  The Ebay one seems to have been refinished: the orange tint to the soundboard seems to be a stain rather than natural darkening from light exposure, and whatever was done to the top has removed the "sistema brevettato" stamp behind the bridge.  Action looks a touch higher than one mine, too.  Still, that's a very nice mandolin!

The tailpiece cover/sleeve protector is not original, by the way, but then again mine is missing completely.  The originals had a metal base with a rivetted-on piece of pickguard material inlaid to match the pickguard.  They hardly ever survive as they get detached so easily.

I think that's the third or so Ceccherini in a row that went for over GBP700 on Ebay UK -- looks like Umberto is getting more name recognition these days, and prices are heading up.  If it continues this way, market value of my Ceccherini may overtake that of my Tipo A Embergher soon.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

> Yes, I find these disturbing  at first glance. 
> Who knows...
> 
> It may have at one point been a Rembrandt, but should you strip it all away and add things to it, is it still a Rembrandt?
> 
> Perfect example of over-restoration. The inlays on the fascia at the base are not original.


PP: that Vinaccia was over-restored (I like that term) by Sam's Workshop in VietNam and sold out of Taiwan. My theory and observations are *here*.

----------

PiccoloPrincipe

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## peterk

Another putative Calace on our favourite German ebay:http://www.ebay.de/itm/Mandoline-von...item19e7e86ea2
This one has been restored, according to the seller.
I find the soundboard MOP edging to be odd looking on a Calace mandolin. The back surface also seems to have been finished flat, no sheen to be seen on the pictures. That compensated bridge also smacks of a more recent vintage.
Start price 999 Euro, BIN 1,400 Euro.

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## Martin Veit

This one here is a funny thing:
 An embergher clone by Perarri.

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## Jim Garber

> Another putative Calace on our favourite German ebay:http://www.ebay.de/itm/Mandoline-von...item19e7e86ea2


Yes I agree. I have a feeling the binding might have disintegrated and the restorer put that pearl on it. it does look odd. Them again he does say "mandolin by Raffaele Calace year built 1918 Mod 2! *top Restored!*"

----------


## Jim Garber

> This one here is a funny thing:
>  An embergher clone by Perarri.


Martin: do you have a link for that one? It is interesting that I have seen a few Roman mandolins made by luthiers in Naples, including some later Fratelli Vinaccia mandolins.

Google is esp annoying here because it wants to search for Ferrari, not Perrari mandolin.

----------


## peterk

> Yes I agree. I have a feeling the binding might have disintegrated and the restorer put that pearl on it. it does look odd. Them again he does say "mandolin by Raffaele Calace year built 1918 Mod 2! *top Restored!*"


I think what the seller means to say is that the mandolin was given a "top (notch) restoration", as opposed to only the mandolin top (i.e., soundboard) having been restored. However, Martin may wish to confirm that sort of understanding because my German is even worse than my Italian. :Grin:

----------


## Jim Garber

Maybe yes, maybe no. I take him at his English words. Also it looks like that to me. That pearl border is pretty shiny.

----------


## peterk

> This one here is a funny thing:
>  An embergher clone by Perarri.


Looks like Silvestri (Catania) modelled this mandolin after Embergher.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/alte-antike-M...item338a603ec9



And here is what is presented as a genuine 1922 Embergher:http://www.ebay.it/itm/MANDOLINO-LUI...item35d1626b91

I guess the seller has not found it neccessary to show pictures of the mandolin back.

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## Jim Garber

I love that cartoon version of the scratchplate scroll. Just one small note... likely they might have been copying Embergher but remember that there were Roman-style mandolins before Embergher -- Maldura and DeSantis among others. You can read about them *here*. I would say that LE perfected for Roman style but did not invent it.

----------


## Martin Veit

Uh, two chains in one thread.
Okay, first my few thoughts about the "top" restored calace mandolin.
The sellers means, he has done a very fine job. As in "Top or Flop"  :Disbelief: 
Well, i think, the only good work is the cleaning of the mandolin -case  :Smile: 

My guess is, that he first has taken of the tail-piece and 
has given the tail-piece a ride on the sander.
Than he has used a lot of pickling agent and after all has sanded the rest of the body.
But in my opinion he has done a very fast work. It wasn't honed very fine,
so that the new stain shows some of the scratches he has given to this instrument
because he has guided the sandpaper across the grains.
(Am I right with my vocabulars?)
For eg. take a look at the nails, he has used to refix the tailpiece.
He has sanded them together with the tp at last.
Bad work! 
Have you ever seen nails on original and unrestored mandolins?

The lacquer he has used must have been PU-Lacque (so i guess)
Its not easy to use shellac in the spray-gun. 
But the finish is matt and stump, that shows, 
that he hasn't polished the instrument.

What this instrumen really needs is a restauration from the restauration  :Smile: 

(and i really should look into my old grammar books)

So, here's the link to the Perrari instrument 
http://www.ebay.de/itm/131103411130?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

----------

PiccoloPrincipe

----------


## peterk

Martin, I think you are doing good with your "restauriert" analysis as well as English. :Grin:

----------


## peterk

> Just one small note... likely they might have been copying Embergher but remember that there were Roman-style mandolins before Embergher -- Maldura and DeSantis among others. You can read about them *here*. I would say that LE perfected for Roman style but did not invent it.


A good point to remember.

----------


## Jim Garber

Hey, this thread made the front page today... just in time for Super Bowl.

----------


## peterk

> Hey, this thread made the front page today... just in time for Super Bowl.


A great thread and a major repository of various bb mandolin topics, experiences and knowledge. Kudos to you Jim for setting it up and nudging it along.

----------

PiccoloPrincipe

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## peterk

More info has surfaced about this "Calace" (a probable attribution) mandolin by a German eBay seller:http://www.ebay.de/itm/370994856798?...84.m1431.l2649

The mandolin was previously sold on Dec.28. 2013, and subsequently returned because of a "poor description". The current relist of the mandolin has additional information about the condition which was not included in the previous sale listing: _"Der korpus ist etwas verzogen"_. I am not quite clear on what is "deformed" on it, but I suspect the soundboard at the fretboard might have caved in a bit. Perhaps not a terminal flaw, yet probably requiring attention by a good mandolin luthier, and that typically costs big bucks.

----------


## Martin Veit

The sellers says, that the instrument has some dongs and the body was deformend.
What ever "the body" might be  :Confused: 

Peter, i agree with you. There will be need for some restauration.
Lets see, for what marge the mandolin will be sold this time.

----------


## peterk

I believe that in their description "korpus" might have meant only one thing: the bowl+ soundboard. Then again, I can't speak German. :Laughing: 
If I had access to a good and reasonably priced luthier's support, I would have taken some risks with that Antiklang operation. Unfortunately, I do not, and I am not setup to do major repairs such as neck resets myself.

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## Martin Veit

Peter - this "Antik-Loge" means, he is a big dealer in all kind of "Nippes", as the cologne-People says.
He is an Dealer in antiques or "Brique au brague" as the frenchmen says.

----------


## peterk

> Peter - this "Antik-Loge" means, he is a big dealer in all kind of "Nippes", as the cologne-People says.
> He is an Dealer in antiques or "Brique au brague" as the frenchmen says.


You see, Martin, that seller's name is a bit awkward for an English speaker to compute properly because of the "antique=antik" spelling difference. That is why I see the name as "Anti-klang", or "Anti-klomp", etc. :Grin:

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## Martin Veit

Well Peter,

in fact, i like your Antiklang more the the original name.
'cause "antiklang" means "against the good sound" or so!
And isn't it just the thing he's doing?
Don't use the instruments for making music.
Instead he's selling them.
There are some of us who will do better, i guess  :Wink:

----------


## derbex

There ia a modern, 2009, Calce model 26 on UK ebay http://r.ebay.com/MDPL6k

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## peterk

I wonder what the current price is for a brand new Calace of that model ? The other obvious question is how good those contemporary Calace mandolins are, compared to their illustrious ancestors made in the Nicola & Raffaele's workshop in the late 19th and early 20 century ?

----------


## derbex

Both good questions, I have looked on their site in the past but they are a bit coy about pricing.

----------


## Jim Garber

I have emailed Calace and asked for a price list and they sent a word doc. The last price list I have from them was dated 2007. I haven't asked for one recently. I think the one on eBay is a Model 26. I would think that the prices have risen some since 7 years ago.




> LISTINO PREZZI
>         (Price - List)
>         --------------
>           ANNO 2007
> 
> ---------- MANDOLINS ---------
> type n. 24        Euro  700,00
>  "  "  26         "    750,00
>  "  "  13         "  1.080,00
> ...

----------


## peterk

> Both good questions, I have looked on their site in the past but they are a bit coy about pricing.


Yes, in my limited experience, the Italian bb mandolin makers/restorers of today appear bashful about their prices. :Whistling:  Unless I'd have the opportunity to examine closely and play one of their instruments, I wouldn't contemplate buying.

However, when it comes to new classical mandolin purchase, I believe anything made by Antonio Carvalho's shop would be a safe bet, and perhaps Kerman's instruments merit a very close look, if one is inclined to spend much more $$.

----------


## Jim Garber

A couple of rosewood Emberghers on eBay for your enjoyment. 

*Overpriced 1937 student A* on Benelux eBay

*1929 Number 2* in Italy that needs some neck work (warpage) not mentioned by the seller. He says he can have it restored for 450 euros extra. I would mention that if anyone is interested in pursuing it.

----------


## Jim Garber

> perhaps Kerman's instruments merit a very close look, if one is inclined to spend much more $$.


Kerman's mandolins are in the $6000-7000 range.

----------


## peterk

> *1929 Number 2* in Italy that needs some neck work (warpage) not mentioned by the seller. He says he can have it restored for 450 euros extra. I would mention that if anyone is interested in pursuing it.


Based on those pictures, I reckon the current string action height @ 12th fret is close to 10mm :Disbelief: . The soundboard appears to have a few longitudinal cracks. Also, there are often problems which the pictures do not show. My quack restoration 6th sense is tingling when I look at that listing. Don't know why, but be careful when contemplating a purchase here.

----------


## peterk

> Kerman's mandolins are in the $6000-7000 range.


That's what I've kind of expected. In addition, if one would want specially selected tonewoods and a few little extra features which Avital's mandolin has, then my guess is that we are probably looking at close to $10k.
I suppose people who are really good and accomplished players, be they amateur or pro, could possibly justify that sort of money. 
Not an old mandolin hack like myself.

----------


## brunello97

Doesn't Victor have a 'new' Calace, Jim, or am I mistaken?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Victor does have one, I think a model 24 or it might be a 26. It is decent but I also recall that he had to have it set up a little better than it came here. I think he bought it maybe in 2004, possibly earlier. I have also seen a Classico A but I was not too impressed with that.

----------


## peterk

If anyone has seen *another* Vinaccia mandolin with f-soundholes such as this one, please let us know.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/310871361788?...84.m1423.l2649

I certainly haven't seen any pictures of such mandolins. I guess there is always a possibility that those f holes were a later modification by an owner of the mandolin. If those f holes were done by the Vinaccias as a low production volume departure from the usual styling course, I'd like to think that the soundboard would have been additionally/custom reinforced in that highly perforated section.

----------


## Jim Garber

That is an interesting one. In addition to the numbers of Vinaccia luthiers, I have yet to get any sense of the organization of the models, if there was one. I have even seen some later Vinaccias made in the Roman style. I think they just made what their customer asked. Someone wanted to have f-holes, I suppose. Maybe their American cousin had a Waldo and they were jealous.  :Smile:

----------


## peterk

This is the only other f-soundhole Vinaccia I've managed to find: 1772 Antonio Vinaccia.
However, that very old Vinaccia doesn't help much as it doesn't make a plausible precedent or a model for a much much later Vinaccia mandolin with f holes.

----------


## 1980gms

I do not believe that these 'f' holes are later modification or a loan from the American luthiery....Maybe Vinaccia family used these features on some models -rarely of course but they must did-....Do not forget that this dynasty of luthiers made also violins so it is very likely that they used some violin characteristics on mandolins.....here are some photos of a 1889 Vinaccia mandolin:

----------

Jim Garber

----------


## peterk

That is great, GMS.....appreciate it. Your mandolin shows basically the same f hole styling as well as positioning.

----------


## Jim Garber

1980gms: I, for one, would love to see some larger photos of that mandolin. Is that yours?

----------


## 1980gms

Unfortunately it is not mine and i do not really remember where i found these from.....i have an archive of photos like these but those specifically are really old ones and i cannot remember the site...sorry.... :Redface:  but i believe this is a high grade mandolin... the mandolin is mentioned as a work only of Achille Vinaccia (not fratelli) but i still do not know why.....the size is as posted....i have no bigger version of these.....

----------


## Martin Veit

Guys, i need your opinions.

What do you think about the Em.. on ebay.de
My guess is, that it is okay to try some money, but it will be a lot of work to do
to get this instrument set up ready.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Schone-alte-M...item338abcabfc

Martin

----------


## peterk

> Guys, i need your opinions.
> 
> What do you think about the Em.. on ebay.de
> My guess is, that it is okay to try some money, but it will be a lot of work to do
> to get this instrument set up ready.
> 
> http://www.ebay.de/itm/Schone-alte-M...item338abcabfc
> 
> Martin


The problem with that fragmented instrument I see as threefold:
(1) It's been wrecked so bad that even a very experienced luthier might not be able to put it back into the original tonal state.
(2) A quality restoration would be pricey. (It is also possible that the neck may have to be reset too.) 
(3) The soundboard repair would probably show, from one end to the other of the mandolin, and that ought to have an adverse effect on its resale value.

That auction has already gone past the 100 Euro mark, therefore it is unlikely now one could get those Emburger bits and pieces dirt cheap. I guess if I could get it for less than 100 Euro, then perhaps I would have been interested too, although the seller apparently doesn't like shipping out of Germany.

----------


## Jim Garber

I don't know. At first I said, no way, it is a trainwreck. However, it looks like all the parts are there. The upside is that it is probable that the strings have been off it for years so it is likely that the rest of the mandolin when assembled would be fine. The crack on the bowl is not much. The top may have to be removed and the table re-assembled but I have seen a lot worse.

For your entertainment... *1923 N.2 restoration* -- seriously warped top.

However this is a pre-1907 mandolin, from the same time as my favorite Embergher. The quality of the top wood looks very nice and it may be a worthy restoration. If I had the ability or the money and needed such a thing I would bid more than 100 euros. Even if it cost 800-1000 euros to restore it could be worth it to have a fine mandolin. This mandolin would prob cost about 2500 euros in restored condition.

----------


## peterk

> This mandolin would prob cost about 2500 euros in restored condition.


I am not sure of that. There have been two Emberghers in a fairly decent condition languishing on eBay for weeks now.......one auction starts at $1700 and the other's BIN is $3300 with the offer option. I do not think there have been any bids/offers on those two mandolins at all.
Both of those mandolins are from the late 1920s, if I remember correctly, having recurved bowl at the neck joint.

----------


## Martin Veit

Well,
my thoughs were, to bid up to 125 € or so.
Just for the fun to look inside the mandolin and 
being able to do sometimes the restauration.  :Smile: 
But this mando will get the shot in the last seconds, i guess.

----------


## Graham McDonald

I think it is eminently restorable, especially as all the bits are there. The soundboard would need to come off to be reglued and the neck angle can get sorted out at that point. Of course you have to find someone to do the work, but that should be easier in Germany than just about anywhere else.

cheers

----------


## peterk

For the life of me I just can't figure out what the fretboard is on this De Meglio mandolin. The fretwires look all gone.
Perhaps John Maddock might have an idea or two about it ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mandolin-Ita...item2c7c9073ca

----------

PiccoloPrincipe

----------


## Jim Garber

> I am not sure of that. There have been two Emberghers in a fairly decent condition languishing on eBay for weeks now.......one auction starts at $1700 and the other's BIN is $3300 with the offer option. I do not think there have been any bids/offers on those two mandolins at all.
> Both of those mandolins are from the late 1920s, if I remember correctly, having recurved bowl at the neck joint.


The first is a *1929 N.2* starting bid at $1700 but there are cracks and the neck is warped. The second is a *1924 student B* and tho it does look in good shape, itshould sell for about $1000 less.

I was basing my prices on what good restored Emberghers are selling for these days. I know some sellers will ask for more but I think $2500 for a playable N.2 in exc is reasonable.

----------


## Jim Garber

> For the life of me I just can't figure out what the fretboard is on this De Meglio mandolin. The fretwires look all gone.
> Perhaps John Maddock might have an idea or two about it ?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mandolin-Ita...item2c7c9073ca


I think (maybe) this one has had its fretboard removed? I did not know that would be under it. Maybe another part of the DeMeglio system?

----------


## peterk

> I think (maybe) this one has had its fretboard removed? I did not know that would be under it. Maybe another part of the DeMeglio system?


My first thought was that they had a MOP fretboard there, however, upon closer inspection it doesn't look like it. Then I thought perhaps that was a base onto which thin MOP sections or ornaments were glued, and then the whole thing levelled with mastic. Yet, MOP is opaque and unless sanded super thin, the colour and reflectivity of the base material shouldn't matter. Interestingly enough, Dave Hynds shows a similar De Meglio on his website.
Looks like the entire fretboard was divided into five sections of similar length by fret wires around which one can see something like excess glue. _Mannaggia la miseria_, what are we missing here ?  :Confused:

----------


## brunello97

Super weird DeMeglio.  The fretboard extension is not a common feature on DeMeglios.  The SN the seller lists is consistent with the main DeMeglio system.  

I have a DeMeglio in my files with a similar looking 'fretboard eczema.'  My notes have it as a Vincenzo DeMeglio dated 1904. I don't have a shot of the label. 

The label here shouts out Vincenzo and Giovanni as "socii" of Cav. Giovanni.  Socii being an archaic Latin verb for 'ally', a historical term in particular for allies of Rome in pre Caesarean Roman Republic.  

A fascinating application in the world of mandolin building or perhaps some weird Neapolitan (or should I say, Napolitano,) slang.

I don't know what those telephone cable strings are doing on there but the action looks pretty gnarly in Photo # 4 and the neck joint is creaking if not cracking in Photo # 9.

I realize over the course of the 100 year life of a mandolin it may come into the possession of a bonehead or two.  That doesn't soften the blow however.

Yet another bowlback tragedy.

Mick

----------


## peterk

Mick, you writing is funny and fun to read. :Laughing: 
As far a "socio" goes, that is a rather common Italian noun everywhere, used formally and otherwise to designate a (business)partner, associate, even a buddy or a companion. Once the intimacy increases beyond soci, then one becomes "cumpa(re)" and that sort of thing.
Those poor mandolins have suffered an incredible amount of abuse. That brings to mind one of my early courses in bridge design. The lecturer asks how one can find out the* true* load bearing capacity of a bridge. Naturally, we all began to think theoretically, by analysis, while the answer was ridiculously simple and obvious: when fully completed, we keep piling up 10 tonne concrete blocks onto the bridge in controlled increments until it collapses.  :Grin:

----------

PiccoloPrincipe

----------


## brunello97

> Mick, you writing is funny and fun to read.
> As far a "socio" goes, that is a rather common Italian noun everywhere, used formally and otherwise to designate a (business)partner, associate, even a buddy or a companion.


That's what I know. I'm not particularly strong in English grammar, Pedro, but I learned to pluralize socio with one i.  Going deep with two is what makes the whole DeM label / hybrid Napoli dialect thing so interesting.  

Sounds like you're talking about the _French_ method of engineering analysis as we learned it, or at least passed along by David Billington. 

My colleague PvB still plays some of this empirical method out with his students.  Not sure if the video will play on the Flckr link but it is typically a fun thing to _listen_ to.  

Mick

----------


## peterk

Yes, I've got that video OK. I guess the "French method" of engineering analysis goes back to the days of Bonaparte (another Italian :Mandosmiley: ).......their rapid conquest advances across Europe required frequent and quick ad hoc bridge construction. Therefore, Bonaparte dragged with him engineering types on his campaigns whose main role was erecting bridges. Alas, they were not always successful in building a sufficient safety factor into them. :Grin:

----------


## Tavy

> For the life of me I just can't figure out what the fretboard is on this De Meglio mandolin. The fretwires look all gone.
> Perhaps John Maddock might have an idea or two about it ?


Nope sorry, other than it looks pretty manky I've no idea what it is, something that hasn't stood the test of time and would be a bitch to repair I suspect?

----------


## Graham McDonald

It looks like someone has pulled the frets out and then glued aluminium foil to the bare fretboard. Then rubbed it down so the frets slots showed. Why those frets, if that is what they are, were put or left at the third, sixth, tenth and fifteenth frets is a mystery. Something odd is going on with the nut/zero fret a well.

Cheers

----------


## Beanzy

Perhaps it had a thin veneer and this is the glue left after separation? There looks to be some leaching of moisture at the mounting pins etc.
Perhaps  early experiments in a molded/cast formica fretboard?  :Smile:

----------


## peterk

This is perhaps one of the nicest, most richly appointed serial production mandolin by American luthiers. 
According to this poster, only about one hundred of them were made.

----------


## Jim Garber

> This is perhaps one of the nicest, most richly appointed serial production mandolin by American luthiers. 
> According to this poster, only about one hundred of them were made.


That exact one is actually mine and is the "flagship" for the *Post a Picture of Your Bowlback* thread. I don't think I would call it a production mandolin. I don't know if I ever saw any styles 6 & 7 that were exactly alike. They also seemed to get less fancy as the century progressed. I sent pictures to the person who made that poster and she also made a tee-shirt of it which are prob rarer than the actual mandolin -- I would be surprised if she sold 100 of them.

----------


## peterk

Well, Jim, I didn't know that one was yours..........a truly an enviable mandolin to own.....I'd say a climax of the American traditional mandolin making. After such accomplishments, the American mandolin took a major turn to the arched construction, and new mandolin body forms emerged which had severed all aesthetic links with the traditional European mandolin family tree.

----------


## brunello97

Hmm.  Relatively hideous looking, imo, no disrespect to its owner, who happens to be a very good friend of mine.  :Smile:  

I never thought Martin did bling well at all. Most of their efforts at it seem to clash with the simple clean (proto modernist) aesthetic. One can understand the perhaps economic and aesthetic temptations, but they often wind up looking like a dog's breakfast.  The back on the "T Shirt Martin" looks ever so much more well designed than the front, which between the scratch plate, the fretboard and the headstock makes the excesses of the Catanese seem mild.  

I'll bet it _sounds_ awesome.

I would lean towards the Vega artist models as the acme of US bowl mandolins myself.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

> It looks like someone has pulled the frets out and then glued aluminium foil to the bare fretboard. Then rubbed it down so the frets slots showed. Why those frets, if that is what they are, were put or left at the third, sixth, tenth and fifteenth frets is a mystery. Something odd is going on with the nut/zero fret a well.
> 
> Cheers


With the assumption that the mandolins that Peter posted and the example I posted are _different_ instruments the mystery deepens as to why this would have occurred twice. :Confused: 

Or if only once, why someone would put _new strings_ on such a calamity?

Mick

Faith and Be Gor, I'm bidding on it.  At that (low) shipping rate from the UK, I can risk stripping that off and replacing the fretboard.  I'm guessing spray paint, Beanzy.  WTHN?

----------


## peterk

I've just tried bidding on it a bit, but someone must have a fairly high max bid on it already, so I've just got outbid. Actually, I've been pretty good with the soldering iron, I might be able to fix that tin fretboard pretty good myself. :Grin:

----------


## brunello97

> I've just tried bidding on it a bit, but someone must have a fairly high max bid on it already, so I've just got outbid. Actually, I've been pretty good with the soldering iron, I might be able to fix that tin fretboard pretty good myself.


Well it's not me.  The current high bid is 34X what my ante up was.....

Mick

----------


## peterk

I think our money would be better spent on this Emburger. :Grin: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/MANDOLIN-EMBE...item338af04fbe

We just need to convince Fabio that he is not likely to get anywhere near $1,600 for it with that magna-bow of a neck and multiple cracks in the soundboard, and then we try negotiate a lower price with him directly. I think the man likes wheeling and dealing.

----------


## Jim Garber

> *1929 Number 2* in Italy that needs some neck work (warpage) not mentioned by the seller. He says he can have it restored for 450 euros extra. I would mention that if anyone is interested in pursuing it.


*Relisted here* with $100 less for starting bid and $200 less for BIN price.

----------


## PiccoloPrincipe

FWIW, I know him and he is a stand up guy. Very knowledgeable about antique mandolins and guitars, particularly Italian luthiers. 

Lives in Bologna.

Looking forward to going out there when I can as he has one insane collection. Best for me to pick and choose while there. He has many instruments one doesn't generally find online and abroad. 

He seems motivated to sell, but not too motivated.
Prices are not "deal" prices, and many of his things need help I think..Prices on par for out here in Italy where they are appreciated more, but few out here have the cash for premium prices no matter the reverence anyway. . . and he will haggle quite a bit. He knows what the market value is for these instruments and has no illusions.

He laments the current market for these things and lack of accomplished mandolin players as I do, but has no illusions.

I don't think he's the type to follow this forum, and I wouldn't mention it to him. I don't know him that well, but I've been doing this and many other things online for a long time and know who is worth dealing with and who is not.. And as I see all of your posts I know a few of us are kindred spirits. 

He's a nice guy and I'd trust him. He is interested in trades too apparently.
..again, fwiw.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Hmm.  Relatively hideous looking, imo, no disrespect to its owner, who happens to be a very good friend of mine.  
> 
> I never thought Martin did bling well at all. Most of their efforts at it seem to clash with the simple clean (proto modernist) aesthetic. One can understand the perhaps economic and aesthetic temptations, but they often wind up looking like a dog's breakfast.  The back on the "T Shirt Martin" looks ever so much more well designed than the front, which between the scratch plate, the fretboard and the headstock makes the excesses of the Catanese seem mild.


Bear in mind that these luthiers are in business and fill the requests of their customers. IMHO the Embergher 5bis is the epitome of musical utility over cosmetics. Then again the shop did produce some highly ornate mandolins such as the N.8. And some oddities like the Cetra-Madami made for Prof. Aldebrando Madami.

I am sure that those upper end Martins were special orders who had the bucks and wanted the bling. So it goes. I agree and generally prefer the plainer instruments but the workmanship ion the Martin it absolutely topnotch.

----------


## Bartk1448

> I have emailed Calace and asked for a price list and they sent a word doc. The last price list I have from them was dated 2007. I haven't asked for one recently. I think the one on eBay is a Model 26. I would think that the prices have risen some since 7 years ago.


Strange, because I asked for the same list from Calace at around the same date and got much higher prices.  The Annamaria was 2800 Euros and the Classico A was 2000 Euros.

----------


## Jim Garber

Bartk1448: can you post your list please. Or perhaps someone can ask for an updated one from Calace.

----------


## Bartk1448

> Bartk1448: can you post your list please. Or perhaps someone can ask for an updated one from Calace.


Here is the 2012 price list from Calace:  The only ones I want are the classico A or the Annamaria and under the current exchange rate they are 3500 and 3800 USD.  They have wood armrests and pickguards, all the rest have tortoiseshell which is some kind of plastic.  I figure I'll let Calace know the next time I have close to $4000 sitting around not doing anything.

Dear Sirs,   

We send you our catalogue and our price-list. 
Our terms are the follow:                        

- payment:   1/2 (half) in advance and 1/2 (half) on delivery note.

- shipment:  by insured air parcel post or by sender, (for few instru-
ments), by air-pakage for more instruments.

- prices: our prices are ex-works prices.

     About Calace Music we specify that all free download
     from www.federmandolino.it

With our best regards.
 Calace Raffaele Jr.


 Ditta Comm.Prof. RAFFAELE CALACE & Figlio
 - di Arena Anna - Liuteria Classica Napoletana  fondata nel 1825 -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vico S. Domenico Maggiore, 9 - 80134 NAPOLI (Italia) - tel.081-5515983
Internet: www.calace.it   e-mail: racalace@tin.it      fax 081-5528906


         LISTINO PREZZI                     
         (Price - List)                     
         --------------                     
           ANNO 2012                        

---------- MANDOLINS ---------        
type n. 24        Euro  680,00        
 "   "   24        Euro  730,00        
  "  "  26         "    780,00        
  "  "  13         "  1.130,00        
  "  "  15         "  1.200,00        
  "  "  16 Bis     "  1.750,00        
  "  Classico D    "  2.000,00        
  "  Classico C    "  1.650,00        
  "  Classico B    "  1.200,00        
  "  Classico A    "  2.600,00
  "  Annamaria    "  2.800,00           
Hard-case x mandolin    120,00        
Semi-hard case x m.      50,00
the following models are missing in the illustrated catalogue:

- type Classico D has the some channelled round bottom of Classico A;
       head without engraved head.  Ebony concert fingerboard with 29
       freets under E.
- type Classico C has round bottom with 31 palisander channelled
       ribs; concert ebony fingerboard with 29 frets under E.
- type Classico B has round bottom with 31 white maple not channelled;
       concert ebony fingerboard with 29 frets under E.                          
- type Classico A has an engraved neck with: a) inside machine-head;
       b) optional laterar side machine head;
- only on type Classico A, with extra price of Euro 300,00 is possible
       to  insert special inox 18/8 stell frets,  more  unconfortable,
       but with a very long duration; only for concertist.
- only on type classico A, with extra price of Euro 300,00 is possible
       to  have  a pearl decorated shield and ebony and  pearl  finger
       board.

----------- MANDOLAS --------- 
type n. 22        Euro  900,00 
   "  "  24         "    1.000.00
  "  "  26         "   1.050.00
  "  "  13         "   1.520,00
  "  "  15         "   1.630,00
  "  "  16 Bis     "   2.300,00
  "  Classico D    "   2.600,00
  "  Classico C    "   2.050,00
  "  Classico B    "   1.600,00
  "  Classico A    "   3.600,00
  "  Annamaria    "  3.800,00 
Hard-case x mandola    180,00 
Semi-hard case           65,00  

MANDOLONCELLOS   (4 double strings:  A,D,G,C) 
e  LIUTI CANTABILI (5 double strings: E,A,D,G,C)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
type Classico A   Euro 5.200,00: big round bottom with 41 channelled
                   ribs; head as mandolin Classico A. 
  Are awaible also with circular round big bottom so that the neck is
                   at 15th frets (instead of 12th)
type Classico B   Euro 4.200,00 ; big round bottom with 41 ribs;
   Are awaible also with circular round big bottom so that the neck is
                   at 15th frets (instead of 12th)
tipo 26           Euro 2.950,00 : with 25 ribs round bottom, more little. 
tipo 22           Euro 2.800,00 : as type 26, wood pick-guard and external machine-heads


                            G U I T A R
                        ------------------- 
Type CLASSICA DA CONCERTO:  formato  grande, o medio, in  palissandro
                       indiano sceltissimo, fascia alta,   filettatura
                       in legno bosso alle fasce ed al fondo, meccani-
                       ca speciale, paletta  intagliata  o intarsiata,
                       tavola armonica  in  abete ,  due buche armoniche 
                       nuovo sistema a correzione di fase per un suono
                       molto ricco di armoniche e con  forte emissione
                       sonora           ..  ..  .  .  .  .  Euro 3.600,00 

  Ex-works prices - Some pictures of mandolins are on our web page




Instrument's description:
(photos are awaiable on web-page www.calace.it)

Mandolins: (vibrant string cm.33,5 tuning E, A, D, G)
---------

type 24 : palisander round bottom 25 ribs, fine fir armonic flat, 
palisander fingerboard with 24 frets under E, covered machinehead,
tortoise pick-plate, tortoise arm-guide.   

type 26 : the some of n. 24 but with pearl decorated pick-plate with floral motif.

type 13 : extra palisander round bottom with 25 ribs, very fine fir armonic flat,
 ebony fingerboard with 24 freets under E, fingerboard with mother of pearl at
frets 3,5,7,10,12 e 15, covered machine-heads, pearl decorated pick-plate and 
head with fine floral motif - tortoise arm-guide.

type 15 : the some of n. 13 but with different decorated head and pick-plate.

type 16 bis: cuirasse from palisander channelled round bottom 33 ribs - 
ebony and pearl fingerboard (as. n. 13) with 24 frets - covered machine-head 
- iris and carnation decorated pick-plate and head.

type Classico D - White maple channelled round bottom 33 ribs - oval soundinghole 
- open head with lateral machine-head - extra fir armonic flat - concert 
fingerboard with 29 frets under E - tortoise pick-plate and arm-guide

type Classico C - cuirasse from palisander channelled round bottom 33 ribs - 
- oval soundinghole - covered machine head - extra fir armonic flat - 
concert fingerboard with 29 frets under E - tortoise pick-plate and arm-guide   

type Classico B - White maple round bottom 31 ribs - oval soundinghole - covered 
machine head - extra fir armonic flat - concert fingerboard with 29 frets under
E - tortoise pick-plate and arm-guide   

type Classico A - White maple channelled round bottom 33 ribs - oval soundinghole 
- engraved neck with inside machine-head - extra fir armonic flat - concert 
fingerboard with 29 frets under E - tortoise pick-plate and arm-guide

Mandolas: (vibrant strings cm.43,5 - tuning in G or in C )
--------

the types are the some of the mandolins one - On demand it is possible
to have long vibrant strings cm.46 - The model Classico C, B and A have 
fingerboard with 24 frets. 

Mandoloncellos: (vibrant strings cm.61 - tuning A, D, G, C.)
--------------

type Classico B: White maple or palisander round bottom 25 ribs - medium size,
very confortable to play - oval soundinghole - open head with lateral 
machine-head - extra fir armonic flat - concert fingerboard with 27 frets 
under A  - tortoise pick-plate and arm-guide

type Classico A: White maple channelled round bottom 36 ribs - big size,
high level sound - oval soundinghole - engraved neck with inside machine-head
- extra fir armonic flat - concert fingerboard with 27 frets under A  - 
tortoise pick-plate and arm-guide

Liuti cantabili:
----------------
 the type are the some of mandoloncello's one, but with 10 
strings tuned E,A,D,G,C.

----------

CHASAX

----------


## vkioulaphides

Annamaria is pretty enough, but fingerboards that go up to the 197th fret   :Laughing:  on the _G_-side are of limited usefulness, IMHO.

I play a humble Model 26, and am perfectly happy with it; then again, I'm a very low-end sort of character. 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

I played a recently made Classico A a year or so ago and was pretty underwhelmed. I also found that the finish on that one was a little on the heavy side. I do like Victors tho. Simple and decent and reasonably priced.

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## peterk

This fancy Ceccherini in disguise just sold for a pretty nifty sum of money. Too bad the mandolin lacks an explicit/written ID of the maker. (I am guessing Pietrapertosa might have had some sort of a deal with Ceccherini in order to try to penetrate the Parisian mandolin market.)  However, that obviously hasn't stopped a bunch of people from going after it.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/400662105476?...84.m1438.l2649

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## brunello97

Coincidentally enough, we've been to Pietrapertosa to see the caves some years back.  Amazingly beautiful area and the village setting itself is spectacular.

Nice looking mandolin. 

Mick

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## Bartk1448

> Annamaria is pretty enough, but fingerboards that go up to the 197th fret   on the _G_-side are of limited usefulness, IMHO.
> 
> I play a humble Model 26, and am perfectly happy with it; then again, I'm a very low-end sort of character. 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Victor


Oh, OK, then I guess all I'll need is about $1068 for the 26 . . . Hmm, now do I need a new mandolin.  OK, I guess it is not about need anymore . . .

Cheers,

----------


## brunello97

> ... OK, I guess it is not about need anymore . . .


Nope.  :Wink: 

Mick

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## PiccoloPrincipe

Hi

Funny you and others discussing this ..

I have written both the seller and "Tavy" (John ) asking and saying the exact same thing .. I just had to know. I don't know what the heck that is and I've never seen it before.

It's obviously not MOP. I thought it was some sort of cover as the fret position dots can be seen beneath.

It looks like glass over silver leaf or something.

Right on "PeterK" .. "Socii" means exactly what you state. Business partner, associate, etc..

The label states that they sourced out for the fingerboard work and credited the maker (who's name I can't recall), which is interesting and unique (if not noble). But due to legal reasons and the production numbers "de Meglio" had, I am sure it was a large amount and serious contract for him.

Love that term "Brunello97" ... "Fretboard eczema" ... Thanks for posting your picture too. Awesome. 
(PS: Wasn't '94 the better year? Just sayin')

As "Beanzy" stated ..."separation, moisture, mold ..etc."  then ensued seems spot on to me too fwiw.

Checking my messages now, the seller knows nothing about anything regarding mandolins or this instrument, but was honest in describing what he sees. He said that he doesn't know really what he is looking at either.

I would never, EVER copy or forward someone's message (I'm a tomb), but this is public and strictly relating to the description of the instrument, so I'll post his response:

"I can't work it out.
To the touch the fretboard & frets are like glass - cold and smooth.
I tried to make a small mark on it with a screwdriver but it seems resilient.
Also it looks like through the glass there are the old mother of pearl marks visible.
So perhaps a replacement at some time in glass or some other transparent substance.
It does not look like a recent addition."


Anyway, there appears to be a crack at the headstock, and the neck is separating..

As stated, it would be a heck of a thing to fix i think. Probably requires replacement.

Strangely, noting within one of his images of the side posted, it appeared that it was a normal fretboard beneath?

I don't intend to ask more questions as I am not really interested, but it threw me too. but he noted that there are actually frets or raised fret-like areas made of this glass-like substance. And within detailed images, they don't match the apparent fretboard incisions below..I see a few slot mismatches from whatever I am looking at.

Anyway, at least i'm not the only one..weird...
Kind regards




> For the life of me I just can't figure out what the fretboard is on this De Meglio mandolin. The fretwires look all gone.
> Perhaps John Maddock might have an idea or two about it ?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mandolin-Ita...item2c7c9073ca

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## PiccoloPrincipe

Yeah..I really tried for that one..
fwiw


Not meant to be apparently..






> This fancy Ceccherini in disguise just sold for a pretty nifty sum of money. Too bad the mandolin lacks an explicit/written ID of the maker. (I am guessing Pietrapertosa might have had some sort of a deal with Ceccherini in order to try to penetrate the Parisian mandolin market.)  However, that obviously hasn't stopped a bunch of people from going after it.
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/400662105476?...84.m1438.l2649

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## PiccoloPrincipe

> I think our money would be better spent on this Emburger.http://www.ebay.ca/itm/MANDOLIN-EMBE...item338af04fbe
> 
> We just need to convince Fabio that he is not likely to get anywhere near $1,600 for it with that magna-bow of a neck and multiple cracks in the soundboard, and then we try negotiate a lower price with him directly. I think the man likes wheeling and dealing.


Funny, I didn't see your post prior to replying.

Even more funny In fact is I wrote him the exact same thing regarding his Mozzani terzina trying to help him out and just talking instruments and things. I actually was rather rude initially criticizing his statement of it being "restored" .. (It's a sore subject for me, what can I say)

Yeah, he is a genuine enthusiast, etc. as stated before, but here, prices really are completely devoid of following the current market or any seeming logic in my humble opinion.

Not merely instruments, but everything...

Anyway, power to him ... "expensive" is relative, but yes, as you so aptly stated ... definitely think he is willing to negotiate.

Jeez...the mandolin world is small.

----------


## peterk

> Yeah..I really tried for that one..
> fwiw
> 
> 
> Not meant to be apparently..


He, he......I also went after that one, but not all the way, and that perhaps was a mistake . :Grin:  That mandolin needed two tuner buttons replaced, which would have really meant making my own buttons out of bone blanks, and that, including the installation, would have been a tedious project for me. 

Piccolo Principe, do you have any info on the assumed relationship between Pietrapertosa and Ceccherini ? I am troubled a bit by the absence of Ceccherini's name on that mandolin label. Unfortunately, the Pietrapertosa's label doesn't make it clear that he was (probably) the importer and/or the distributor, and not the maker of the mandolin.

----------


## peterk

This mandolin with an 1883 brothers Calace label has resurfaced on eBay only a few weeks after it was sold for 121 Euro (http://www.ebay.de/itm/MANDOLIN-F-LL...d=589963814360).

I can't see anything of value added to it now, only the asking price has gone up manifold.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/old-fully-pl...item4d19146a56
I hope that the mandolin will continue to circulate on eBay from one speculator to another, and that no bona fide mandolin player and/or enthusiast gets stuck with it.

----------


## PiccoloPrincipe

> He, he......I also went after that one, but not all the way, and that perhaps was a mistake . That mandolin needed two tuner buttons replaced, which would have really meant making my own buttons out of bone blanks, and that, including the installation, would have been a tedious project for me. 
> 
> Piccolo Principe, do you have any info on the assumed relationship between Pietrapertosa and Ceccherini ? I am troubled a bit by the absence of Ceccherini's name on that mandolin label. Unfortunately, the Pietrapertosa's label doesn't make it clear that he was (probably) the importer and/or the distributor, and not the maker of the mandolin.


Hello there

My sentiments are exactly the same as yours. It's strange.
No..I haven't any other info either I'm afraid.

Your thoughts make me grin regarding making new bone buttons.
I'll never learn. In my head it always takes 15 minutes! Always ...
Kind regards.

----------


## peterk

Well, in my modest experience, fashioning a decent looking replica button out of bone is not that difficult. However, I have encountered a couple of problems afterwards:
(1) Drilling-filing a square profile tapered hole in the button, so as to fit the tuner shaft snug and accurate.
(2) After the button has been mounted, terminating somehow the shaft tip in order to secure the button on the shaft.

----------


## peterk

Here's a fancy De Meglio with an even fancier auction starting price: 950 Euro ($1,305 US).
http://www.ebay.it/itm/Mandolino-Gio...item4ad0f65149
The mandolin looks good despite a lengthy crack in the soundboard.  
Unfortunately, there are no pictures which would allow one to judge the neck condition as well as the health of the fretboard-soundboard joint. Those 8 strings look like they have maintained the instrument in tune for several decades, just in case someone decided to strum it a bit every few years.  :Frown:

----------


## Tavy

While we're talking DeMeglio's, did anyone around here buy the model 7 with the "glass" fretboard?  Just curious to know what it was actually made of...

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## peterk

That mandolin fetched a goodly amount in the end. I'd say the fretboard was covered with tin foil, it is just odd that we have a record of seemingly two different De Meglio mandolins having the same "feature", which would suggest that the De Meglios themselves might have experimented in that direction on a limited number of such instruments being sold.

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## Tavy

> That mandolin fetched a goodly amount in the end. I'd say the fretboard was covered with tin foil, it is just odd that we have a record of seemingly two different De Meglio mandolins having the same "feature", which would suggest that the De Meglios themselves might have experimented in that direction on a limited number of such instruments being sold.


IMO it went for too much considering it probably wasn't playable "as is" and might well need a fretboard-transplant.

I don't think it was tin foil though - more like a molded plexiglass fretboard - if Boem could do that for waldzither bridges, why not for fretboards too?  Other than they end up looking like c^%p and are unrepairable of course!

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## peterk

If indeed the fretboard is "Plexiglass (or "Lucite"), then such modification must be of a later date because that family of clear thermoplastics was not commercially available before the mid 1930s or so.

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## Jim Garber

These are pretty rare: a 1913 N.5 Embergher (no "bis" here -- std open flat headstock). Nice inlay on the peghead. I am sure that the price is pretty up there in the stratosphere. This is being sold by *William Petit* in Paris. I don't see it on his site yet but it is on his *Facebook page*.

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## Jim Garber

Yikes! Yet another Embergher, this a *1928 mandola* (octave tuned) in rosewood (eBay Germany). It looks like it is in good shape, too. Also comes with possibly an original case. Try to find a hard shell case for this one. Non-original tp cover.

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## brunello97

The #5 senza bis looks pretty nice, Jim. I much prefer this headstock and like the inlay on it a lot.  I've never been a fan of the apribottiglie.  I remain stymied, though, by why so many Emberghers appear so clumsy on the face and so wonderful on the back.  Misaligned fretboard snowflakes?  Weird, fat, black soundhole ring?  I realize the (hopefully faux) tortoise scroll is a part of the brand. This one does feel almost okay with the Puglia / Florida fretboard extension.

Really enigmatic design sensibility.  The back of the mandola looks like a tuna's eye view of a Chris Craft. The front, well....

Mick

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## peterk

When I saw that M-burger 1928 mandola having a low starting price, I needed to check my excitement by reminding myself that I could get a very fine brand new Antonio Carvalho mandola for 450 Euro. :Whistling:

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## Bartk1448

Can anyone comment on the German Bowlbacks, specifically those at http://www.guriema.de ?  I ask because these have the kind of tuners I like, wood pick guards and wood armrests that only come on the very expensive Italian models.  Thanks.

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## peterk

Here's a 1896 brothers Vinaccia mandolin. Looks quite good on the pictures.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Very-rare-an...item4ad1741963

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## brunello97

I like the simple elegance of many of the Vinaccias.  Hard to tell about the condition on this one.  Top and back crack could be okay, but when a seller says 'an easy fix' I wonder how many mandolins he / she has fixed.... 

Those deep shadows from the G strings on the fretboard could imply a the need for a 'subjective' view of the playing action, as the seller hints: "I say 'mandolin', you say 'mandoline kitchen slicer'". 

Hard to say, but the top looks a bit sunken in N of the soundhole as well, but it may be the angle of the photo #6. Curious that the label is 180 degrees from normal positioning.  

For $1800 this is bound to sit around for awhile.  Kind of surly ad copy, if you ask me. 

I do like the simple elegance of many of the Vinaccias.

Mick

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## peterk

To my way of looking at those things, the Vinaccia mandolins probably take the cake when it comes to proportions, detail and ornamentation.
My fluted bowl Vinaccia, and I am now pretty sure it is a late 1890s brothers Vinaccia, is distinguished by powerful tone, for a bb mandolin, that is. Therefore, at this time I am sold on the Vinaccia brand. :Grin:  Too bad their prices are relatively steep.

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## Jim Garber

Sep on bowl is not too bad; top sep from side might be a little more problematic. I have a feeling that is not the original bridge -- most are more carved/sculptural. Seller has 2 negatives out of 21 feedbacks (as a seller) and both complained of terrible packing and item getting broken.

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## peterk

Yes, even if the mandolin is reasonably healthy now, it might not get delivered in a healthy state. Pitfalls are many with the acquisition of old mandolins from those types of pawnbroker and country barn "antique" re-sellers, even if their sales performance record is 100%. Based on my own experience, in 8 or 9 cases out of ten, a mandolin bough on eBay holds some nasty and undisclosed "surprises". I just can not gamble with $800 plus, under those kinds of odds.

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## brunello97

> Yes, even if the mandolin is reasonably healthy now, it might not get delivered in a healthy state. Pitfalls are many with the acquisition of old mandolins from those types of pawnbroker and country barn "antique" re-sellers, even if their sales performance record is 100%. Based on my own experience, in 8 or 9 cases out of ten, a mandolin bough on eBay holds some nasty and undisclosed "surprises". I just can not gamble with $800 plus, under those kinds of odds.


I wouldn't count on this mandolin being reasonably healthy right now. No surprises: looks like the classic 'top-sink, neck up' problem.  The stresses that pulled the body away from the top there had to come from some place.  

But this might just be my "subjective" concerns with playability, as the seller calls it, IIRC.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I would agree with Mick. Whenever I buy on eBay I assume that whatever I buy is a lot worse than it looks. What you see is what you get only worse. My experience is that unless the seller has bad packing habits (like this one) I have received these instruments in whatever shape they were shipped. I never got anything destroyed in shipping so far. Knock on canted wood top. 

What I do, if I have any doubts or am about to blow a wad of money, is to contact the seller and establish some sort of communication to get a sense of what they are about and what policies they adhere to. If possible, I will call and have a discussion and ask further questions.

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## brunello97

Dropping that kind of do-re-mi (on anything) without due diligence is outside my comfort zone. The sound hole on this Vinaccia just plain looks out of oval.  I know what that's like. Even if the price weren't ridiculous I think anyone interested would want a range of photos to clarify that issue at least.  

Haven't had a lot of problems on ebay.  I did have to send that one DeMeglio back to a women in NY. The neck was a little wonky but she didn't mention it.  She had listed it previously on consignment at Bernunzio where the neck condition was revealed. Doh. Anyhow, that worked out fine with a refund. 

The FL seller (and the Vinaccia) both look pretty sketchioso, at least without further information.

Mick

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## peterk

Here's an interesting mandolin which was vandalised by someone real good.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221386749661...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

The quality and style of MOP inlays suggest the hand of the Boston craftsman Icilio Consalvi.
http://www.fretboardjournal.com/feat...cilio-consalvi

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## Jim Garber

Interesting... did Consalvi work for Howe? I have to check that article. I can't quite tell the quality of the engraving on those inlays. That would be a giveaway for someone who knows.

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## brunello97

El Superbo.  Great name for a mandolin.  

I wonder who the Howe expert is that the seller is referring to? Rick Turner? He hasn't been around here in too long.  Rick has a great collection of H-O mandolinettos.

Could be Consalvi's work, no reason to think he wouldn't be doing work for Howe, though this example looks kind of sloppy to me.  IC had a pretty great overall sense of composition from what I have seen.  This one seems like a mix-and-match bricolage. 

What is that 'hard white material'?  What is it doing there?  Looks like 'mother of stryrofoam'.

Interesting mandolin. Reptile dentistry aside, it pales in comparison to Consalvi's good work.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Could be Consalvi's work, no reason to think he wouldn't be doing work for Howe, though this example looks kind of sloppy to me.  IC had a pretty great overall sense of composition from what I have seen.  This one seems like a mix-and-match bricolage.


My sediments exactly, Professore!

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## peterk

By the time that white goop is scraped off the mandolin, I see a potential for two major repair problems emerging:
(1) A wide section of the soundboard will have to be replaced by new wood (spliced in). 
(2) If the goop also covers the bottom of the pickguard (see picture below), that could pose a real restoration challenge.

----------


## Jim Garber

I have two period Elias Howe catalogs, one on a better quality paper and the second more like newsprint. No dates on either tho. The Superbo section, which is their upper end line of bowlbacks, is practically the same specs in both. I can't quite tell since the description is vague but it does look like this one has about 27 ribs so would beat the top of the line or even a custom one.  BTW all these in both my catalogs were concurrent with the Howe-Orme instruments.

----------


## Jim Garber

> The quality and style of MOP inlays suggest the hand of the Boston craftsman Icilio Consalvi.
> http://www.fretboardjournal.com/feat...cilio-consalvi


Sorry, Peter. I took another look at the Consalvi article in FJ24 and I can agree wholeheartedly with Professor Kennedy that this mandolin was not inlaid by Consalvi. it is possible that he did some work for Howe -- he seemed to work for many of the Boston makers -- but I doubt this is one of the mandolins he worked on.

There is little of the finesse that Consalvi showed on the work. The tree of life and headstock inlays do not have any engraving on them at all. Even the engraving lines on the butterfly inlay look flat to me.

----------


## peterk

I think it is probable the subject pickguard was made by Consalvi for this mandolin, and he was making it wholesale, essentially the same design, for a number of other mandolin makers such as Vega. I see no plausible point in looking at his other showcase (masterpiece) inlays or custom (one -off) work, and assuming that all of his production was of that very lofty type. There must have been some other more commercial and higher volume work which was needed for him to earn his living. Now, what I could not say for sure is if someone else might have crafted that pickguard following his style....simply put, I wasn't there to observe :Grin: , but perhaps there is someone out there today who knows the subject intimately enough so that they could weigh in on this......I myself have learned of Consalvi and his work only a few days ago. :Mandosmiley:

----------


## brunello97

Elderly has a Vega bowl that they are touting the inlay work as maybe being from Consalvi. We're heading up there tomorrow AM so I hope to be able to have a look.  

Lots of these mariposa / farfalla / schmetterling scratchplates were on the market. The detail on the ebay Howe just doesn't look as fine (or detailed) as on the Vega or other Consalvi work.  From maybe to 'probable' is a slow-turning for me.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Anything is, of course, possible and there are experts out there more knowledgeable than us. However, my assumption is always to take the more conservative approach -- unless there are many things to point to Consalvi or the Larsons or the Vinaccias or Embergher  -- I am very cautious to attribute. This is one of the main problems of this Internet thing. One person makes a firm statement on a web site or forum and then a host of others start quoting this as the gospel.

That is what happened with the story of the origin of Handel tuners. One guy posted a tall tale on his web site that they were manufactured in Germany in the town of Handelstein and people started quoting that. I think he basically made the whole thing up (or maybe thought it was a joke. There is no town of Handelstein. I guess this is very similar to the *H.L Mencken Bathtub hoax*. People still quote that as the facts even recently even tho it was all made up.

Also the parts of Lyon & Healy mandolins made of vulcanized rubber -- that was on a prominent vintage instrument seller's site until I corrected them.

It is very much fun to guess where things come from but I try to be cautious. BTW I am not criticizing you, Peter. You did say after all: "suggest the hand of the Boston craftsman Icilio Consalvi."

----------


## peterk

One issue which I find much more vexing than any Consalvi attribution is my practical ability to scrape that white autobody repair epoxy off the pickguard, assuming I'd get the mandolin. :Grin:  If I have no path forward in that direction, then there is no bidding on that mandolin for me.

Might as well use this opportunity to ask restorers such as John Maddock and Dave Hynds if they can share any experience they might have had with TS ungluing. (My only experience is that I have fractured a couple of bits when I was re-gluing them. :Grin: ) I guess builders of modern mandolins are not likely to encounter that sort of a problem any longer.

----------


## Jim Garber

I think if that is Bondo or auto epoxy I would walk away. Life is too short and there are plenty of other bowlbacks. Believe me! Just look in my instrument closet.

----------


## peterk

> I think if that is Bondo or auto epoxy I would walk away. Life is too short and there are plenty of other bowlbacks. Believe me! Just look in my instrument closet.


Yes, epoxies make poor restoration bedfellows. :Grin:  Moreover, there is no part of the old mandolin which IMO is more delicate than TS. Thank goodness the stuff is no longer used. In comparison, MOP restoration is as easy as eating a square pie. After all, even if one breaks a MOP piece in the process, it is always feasible to make a replacement. However, I like restoration challenges.......as long as I have a path forward. :Whistling:

----------


## Jim Garber

Back up your truck to my garage, if you need some more restoration challenges.

----------


## peterk

> Back up your truck to my garage, if you need some more restoration challenges.


Does that mean that your garage is chock-full of old mandolins, eh ? :Grin:

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## Jim Garber

> Does that mean that your garage is chock-full of old mandolins, eh ?


No, but that is the route you have to take to get to them.

----------


## peterk

This Vinaccia bros mandolin looks well preserved on the pictures.  Posted on Italian eBay, starting bid 2,000 Euros, however that's under the reserve.
http://www.ebay.it/itm/Mandolino-nap...item2ecf6a63e7

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## brunello97

That is a fine looking Vinaccia.  After watching the videos of Carlo M working on fluting a bowl, I have an (even) greater appreciating for them.

Mick

Peter, I'm adding the link posted in another thread here.  Thanks for the tip on those, pretty great to watch. 

Bowl Fluting 1
Bowl Fluting 2

Very interesting to watch, and I love what must be custom made rasps. I only wish he had started taping a bit earlier in the process when he was just beginning the scalloping process. That has got to be the trickiest part.  Once you've established the groove your tool will follow the path.

----------


## peterk

> Very interesting to watch, and I love what must be custom made rasps. I only wish he had started taping a bit earlier in the process when he was just beginning the scalloping process. That has got to be the trickiest part.  Once you've established the groove your tool will follow the path.


Right on, Mick. Truthfully, the videos are a bit repetitive and lengthy to watch, especially if one can not follow his spontaneous and amusing banter. Yet, he doesn't seem to make a big deal out of carving the "scannellate": just another day in the "office". :Grin:  
That reminds me of the enjoyment of cappuccino, latte and such beverages: North Americans tend to wax poetic about Starbuck's divine expresso (sic) and related concoctions , while Italians just drink espresso very often, very short, black, thick and bitter in a totally automatic and matter-of-factly manner, with hardly an appreciative thought. :Grin:

----------


## brunello97

Well, I do appreciate having my espresso al banco.  I hate standing in line behind a row of customers ordering a 'triple macchiato deluxe with low fat almond soy milk with cinnamon and chocolate sprinkles shaken out into a smiley face'.  Just give me the coffee.

Nor can I stand for having a cappuccino after noon anyhow.  Savage custom.

One can read discussion amongst coffee snobs these days claiming the very dark, very bitter roasts we associate with espresso as being a way to mask inferior beans.  The milder, smoother Central American roasts (from single plot coffee trees, of course) are gaining popularity.

Similar trends in wine and beer.  Lots of oak and heavy hops slowly giving way to appreciation of subtler qualities.

You can track it in mandolins as well with the growing (around here at least) re-interest in what Martin Jonas calls the 'shimmering sound' of bowlbacks.  One of my favorite MC quotes.

Mick

----------


## peterk

Well, I have no sense of "growing re-interest" in bowlbacks because my reference point goes back only to last July when I got my first mandolin. However, the "erba azzurra" genre seems to be as strong as ever, so much so that everything else appears marginal. I wonder what would the major drivers be for such rekindled interest in bb mandolins ?

----------


## brunello97

Our friend Sheri Mingnano wrote a great book about the SF mandolin scene "Mandolins, Like Salami."  

I guess for me it is like coffee. I like coffee: there is no _bad_ coffee, only some coffees are better than others. Same with mandolins, the margins are pretty wide for me. Solid body electrics to Italian bowlbacks: gimme some neck, as they say. 

Plenty of mando snobbery and sniffery around here.  It makes me laugh. 

I think the interest in bowlbacks seems pretty simple. More interest in the instrument and more access to instruments (and music styles) through online marketing and discussion groups like this.  Prices certainly seem to have gone up.

Mick

----------


## Tavy

> Might as well use this opportunity to ask restorers such as John Maddock and Dave Hynds if they can share any experience they might have had with TS ungluing. (My only experience is that I have fractured a couple of bits when I was re-gluing them.) I guess builders of modern mandolins are not likely to encounter that sort of a problem any longer.


One certainly hopes not!

TS pickguards will often pretty much unglue themselves... however they are also often not real TS, even back in the day.  Generally with pickgards if you can lift one edge they will just pop right off.  However, I suspect you're thinking of that TS-clad neck on one of yours, and that's probably a whole other can of worms.  A lot will come down to how well it was glued on and how thick it is (too thin and it will probably fracture if you try to remove).  Use of heat and/or steam to loosen up the glue would help, but both could cause damage in and of themselves if you use too much, so it's a bit of a balancing act.  Basically once you start taking things apart you're in the lap of gods, and there's always damage, it's just a question of whether it's visible once everythings back together again.

----------


## peterk

Thank you, John. I was asking that question within the context of the discussion on the Elias Howe mandolin referenced in post #6408 above.

----------


## Tavy

> Thank you, John. I was asking that question within the context of the discussion on the Elias Howe mandolin referenced in post #6408 above.


Oh.... that ones a shocker... the bridge can't even go in the correct position with all that white stuff on there.  Seriously, what were they thinking of?

Best case scenario is the white stuff sands off, and you find nothing worse than an unrepaired crack underneath.  Worst case scenario, it needs a whole new top.

This one depends on whether you're a betting man or not: I'd say 60:40 in favor of a not-too-awful repair, but be prepared to write off whatever you pay for it if it goes wrong.... just saying!

----------


## peterk

Well, John, that "repair" might turn out to be more benign that what it looks like....particularly if you consider a hypothetical scenario whereby masonry mortar/grout, steel rivets or some such could have been used to mend the crack. :Grin:  Cases like that help us fine tune our understanding of the scope of human ignorance. :Whistling:

----------


## Jim Garber

> Nor can I stand for having a cappuccino after noon anyhow.  Savage custom.


Carlo Aonzo said in Italy capuccino is only drunk at breakfast.




> You can track it in mandolins as well with the growing (around here at least) re-interest in what Martin Jonas calls the 'shimmering sound' of bowlbacks.  One of my favorite MC quotes.


My favorite MJ quote was in describing the tone and timbre of a DeMeglio mandolin that there was a "party in the bowl."

----------


## Jim Garber

> Very interesting to watch, and I love what must be custom made rasps. I only wish he had started taping a bit earlier in the process when he was just beginning the scalloping process. That has got to be the trickiest part.  Once you've established the groove your tool will follow the path.


Alao, how do you make the scallop in the superfine area around the neck joint. All his rasps/files look pretty hefty. I always thought that scalloping would have been done with surgically precisely sharpened gouges or at least started that way.

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## Jim Garber

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/74224 in the classifieds. New fretboard, bridge, nut.




> I am selling a restored italian mandolin by Giovanni De Meglio 1(A)from 1896 made in Napoli. It has a new 5mm thick fingerboard with the original inlays put back on the new fingerboard to maintain its aesthetic look but had the original fingerboard replaced in order to straighten it from a slight bow and strengthen it from warps. In raising the fingerboard to this height it has the functionality of a modern mandolin with the bridge being higher to really drive the top and make it resonate like a new modern bowlback. The action is 2.7 mm given that I play classical style and want a full tone but can be lowered to anybody's wishes. The main thing is the neck is dead straight. The bridge is new and aesthetically the same as the original bridge however it has a new compensated bone saddle to have better intonation. The nut is also of bone. The mandolin is restored with 2 top shrinkage hairline crack repairs that do not affect the tone whatsoever. The bowl has not been repaired and has one tiny hairline on one rib that was not repaired given that when we tested it to see if light was going through(indicating a full through the wood crack) nothing went through. 5 years later it has never progressed. The tops hairlines did not have light pass through but were fixed in order to prevent any further separation as spruce is a soft wood unlike rosewood which is hard wood. Original case included. $450 local NYC and $15 shipping anywhere in the USA. As is. Video upon request.

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## peterk

That looks like a nice standard De Meglio, and having the fretboard straight and true is a big asset.
The missing string tensioner should be rather easy to make, if desired: a bit of ebony and a couple of wood screws.
The bridge seems like a departure from the De Meglio style. Should one strive towards historical accuracy there, Dave Hynds has replica De Meglio bridges for sale.

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## Tavy

> That looks like a nice standard De Meglio, and having the fretboard straight and true is a big asset.
> The missing string tensioner should be rather easy to make, if desired: a bit of ebony and a couple of wood screws.
> The bridge seems like a departure from the De Meglio style. Should one strive towards historical accuracy there, Dave Hynds has replica De Meglio bridges for sale.


With the string tensioner in place and correctly adjusted the action wouldn't need to be so high either... just saying...

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## peterk

Right on, John. My De Meglio, which you have set up, has its string tensioner in place and a pretty low action height, yet it is as loud and sonorous as one could expect a small bodied bb mandolin to be.

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## Tavy

I should have added though... DeMeglio fret spacings can be a little funky, one with a replacement board isn't such a bad idea...

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## peterk

Here is a mandolin by Ernesto Ceccherini: http://www.ebay.it/itm/ANTICO-MANDOL...item2a396da802

Either a relative of Umberto, or perhaps the seller was thinking of Ernesto Che Guevara when he wrote that listing. :Grin:

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## Bruce Clausen

> perhaps the seller was thinking of Ernesto Che Guevara


That's gotta be right!  :Wink: 

It may be the first Ceccherini we've seen here that is actually in Italy, question being whether these were ever sold there or only in Britain. The label looks like the same one we know from all the others. Can't see the London dealer's name in the ad photos, but I bet it's there.

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## peterk

> That's gotta be right! 
> 
> It may be the first Ceccherini we've seen here that is actually in Italy, question being whether these were ever sold there or only in Britain. The label looks like the same one we know from all the others. Can't see the London dealer's name in the ad photos, but I bet it's there.


That mandolin might have been bought in UK by an Italian, either in those old days or even in more recent times ?
Our Ceccherini identity quest would benefit greatly by having a contributor who is a resident of Napoli, with sufficient interest in the topic as well as the spare time needed to do some serious digging locally. Ceccherini is an even more uncommon Italian surname than De Meglio: there are only two Ceccherini subscribers in the Naples phone book at present. Assuming that "Umberto Ceccherini" was a real mandolin maker in Naples, it would not be impossible that those folks hail from his familial stock.

In the old residential + small commerce quarters of Napoli, many things are still today the way they were 100 years ago. For all we know, Ceccherini workshop may still be there, probably remodelled into an espresso bar or some such.  Similarly, we could pay a visit to De Meglio workshop/offices in Vico Lungo Gelso (see a general street view below).

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## brunello97

An exceptional DeMeglio (in exceptional condition) on the ebay this morning.

Looks like it arrived via a Time Machine.

Mick

So I tossed in a bid....We'll see.

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## peterk

Exceptionally nice, and the seller seems to know it. Alas, that's already too rich for me.
Good luck, Mick.

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## brunello97

> Exceptionally nice, and the seller seems to know it. Alas, that's already too rich for me.
> Good luck, Mick.


Thanks, Peter.  Pushing my $$ limits as well, so we'll see where the bidding goes. I always get light-headed about bowlbacks this time of year.  Dolce Aprile, O Sole Mio, O Paese D'O Sole, Idilio Primaverile.  Spring fever is coming on strong.

I'll be down in Austin on the 23rd when this auction ends, and traveling is how I usually muck up my ebay bidding.  

Mick

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## brunello97

Speaking of bowls and bidding (I didn't, but wish I had), I thought this was quite a nice American Conservatory mandolin that sold for an attractive price (~$215).

The AC line from L+H often turns up some very curious mandolins now and then that break out from the 'second line' quality.  Nice detailing on this one, with what looks to be a bound ebony fretboard--though it could be dyed something else. The MOP, the scratchplate, tailpiece and fb inlays are also very nice.  Nice Pretty RW on the bowl as well.  It has that pumpkin orange top as well that you see on some Riccis.  

Someone got a sweet mandolin at a good price.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

That looks like it was from the earlier era like 1890s. Tailpiece is very unusual, too.

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## brunello97

I think you are right, Jim, particularly with the scratchplate.  Do you know if L+H used that internal bowl bracing on any of the AC models?  I'm at the office so don't have Keef's book handy.  I'll check that tonight.  I don't know just when the AC line came about anyhow.  

Looks a bit like the crown tp without the cutouts.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I am quite fond of AC mandolins. My very first mandolin was an AC bowlback -- I didn't know until later that bowlbacks were not cool.  I bought mine from House of Musical Traditions when it was in east Greenwich Village, NYC before they moved to Maryland.

I have never seen a tp like that one. I have seen the fancy cutout ones and the plain ones also with the crown shape. This one looks like it was stamped.

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## peterk

> An exceptional DeMeglio (in exceptional condition) on the ebay this morning.


Looking at that particular label, it's just occurred to me that the De Meglios seem to have changed their business address often. I can't see exactly where Rettifilo (Corso Umberto I) 248 ("Inside the Palace") is, although the neighbourhood might have perhaps retained some of its old traits: apparently Corso Umberto I has received a major renewal attention by the city in more modern times, therefore the resemblance to the 1900 Rettifilo may be rather slight. Interestingly, one of other De Meglio labels I've seen carried an address not far from Rettifilo 248, in Piazza Nicola Amore. 
I have checked yet another De Meglio address, Piazza De Pretis 14, however, although the neighbourhood can probably be identified, I believe the area has been redeveloped since, and no piazza of that name exists today.

One possibility is that a sudden (beyond-expectations) and profitable business expansion (end of 19th/very early 20th c), such as perhaps due to major mandolin orders from Great Britain, necessitated a rapid succession of several moves to increasingly bigger/better facilities. Yet, when a bb mandolin demand turnauround took place, that trend might have been reversed.

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## brunello97

Peter, it is good that _someone_ is trying to get systematic with the DeMeglio labels and production.  John and I have started to put a DeM serial number registry together as he was interested in determining how their production developed year-to-year.

From a small sampling we have so far it seems that between 1893 and 1900 the SNs went from ~1500 - 10,000.  Then from 1900 - 1923 the SNs went from 10,000 to ~20,000 with well more than half that by 1909.  No examples from the war years, for instance, yet.

As to the addresses and labels:  two SN numbering systems seem to be in place.  One for "Cav. Giovanni De Meglio"  (which followed the SNs above) and another for "Giovanni De Meglio".  Both changed labeling copy at times it seems, but stayed consistent within their numbering schemes.

Cav. Gio DeM had two addresses:  Vico Lungo Gelso and also Rettifilo 249.  Giovanni DeM had two addresses: Piazza N Amore and Via Duomo.   At least.

Labels for both Cav. Gio DeM addresses refer to the piano factory, which Giovanni's labels leaves that out referring to the deposito only.

Mapping the addresses against dates and production #s makes sense but I'll leave that for another day. 

Not a lot, I know, but maybe a step forward from a couple years ago when things got fairly heated around here with fantasies of Napolitani palace guards sneaking into Queen Margherita's chambers looking for a DeMeglio while folks were speculating on whether Giovanni existed at all or whether he was a figment of some London marketer's imagination.   Trust me, you didn't miss anything.

Mick

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## peterk

> Not a lot, I know, but maybe a step forward from a couple years ago when things got fairly heated around here with fantasies of Napolitani palace guards sneaking into Queen Margherita's chambers looking for a DeMeglio


Well, Mick, I suppose the amorous peccadillos of the De Meglio lover boys is a subject of a different line of inquiry :Grin: . As far as their connections to the Court go, I must say I have often marveled at the casualness of diverse titles many Italian notables carry such as "commendatore", "dottore", "professore", "cavaliere", "consigliere", etc. :Confused:

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## brunello97

> Well, Mick, I suppose the amorous peccadillos of the De Meglio lover boys is a subject of a different line of inquiry. As far as their connections to the Court go, I must say I have often marveled at the casualness of diverse titles many Italian notables carry such as "commendatore", "dottore", "professore", "cavaliere", "consigliere", etc.


Sorry, Peter, I think in my haste in writing my post may have provoked some mistaken inferences.  There was a young fellow who came by here a few years back who hailed from Napoli originally.  Kind of an opinionated, brash braggart in many respects but seemingly totally dedicated to playing mandolin.  He wasn't all bad but seemed ready to pick a fight at the drop of a hat.  He had a DeMeglio that I think he got from Dave Hynds iirc.  Thought the world of it and was ready to diss just about anyone else's choice of instrument.  Had some friends in the carabinieri or something who he claimed had access to the former quarters or museum collection of Queen M of Savoy.  He was convinced she played a DeMeglio and was going to get them to have a look.  Or some such porcheria.  Anyhow, casting no aspersions on the DeMeglios themselves.

BTW, we've had a summer home in Liguria for 15 years or so now and in the nearby town (Imperia) friends-business and otherwise-will typically hail me on the street with "Ciao, architetto!"  It's a rather nice custom, if you ask me.  Particularly compared to the "Hey!" we've found to be the typical greeting here around the Great Lakes.  "Ciao, dottoressa."  "Ciao, geometre."  I like it in return.  The little things matter.

Mick

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## peterk

Oh I see, now I understand where those House of Savoy references came from. 
Having a summer home in Italy for so many years would certainly place you well in tune with the Italian manners and customs.
Indeed, many "men of respect" receive various honorifics by spontaneous social interaction amongst regular people. Such little social graces are firmly woven into their lives, and I like that too. As to the Great Lakes region, I feel we are almost at a point where people will flash a "birdie" to one another as a standardised 21st century salute. :Grin:

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## brunello97

> Oh I see, now I understand where those House of Savoy references came from. 
> Having a summer home in Italy for so many years would certainly place you well in tune with the Italian manners and customs.


If only. Very few English speakers in the area, even fewer Americans, so with blue eyes it is typically assumed I'm German.  Being from Texas doesn't make things much better.  Haven't had a chance to spend much time there the last few summers.  Actually, even less since I'm been in the Ivory Tower, which goes contrary to reason.  It's violin and accordion (and cheesy synth) country, despite Carlo being an hour or so down the way. When I play the mandolin in the little piazza in our village only the oldest of old folks pay any mind.  I have a hunch the kids think it is a banjo.

Mick

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## peterk

In the De Meglio days it was relatively common for various European merchants and purveyors of goods and services, craftsmen and trades to claim sponsorship, endorsement or even exclusive patronage by royal houses of Europe. Such putative relationships were displayed on their sales leaflets, store posters, business cards, newspaper ads and musical instrument labels. For us today it would be near impossible to verify the legitimacy of such claims. As an example, although perhaps a bit extreme, this is the verso of a picture taken by a photographer from the De Meglio's Naples. Based on a casual inspection of it, it would be hard to escape the conclusion that Signor Ferretti's business was indeed well connected and highly regarded in the loftiest of social circles, even by the King of Burmese ("Il Re dei Birmani"). :Smile:

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## brunello97

> ..... even by the King of Burmese ("Il Re dei Birmani").


Hey, if it's good enough for Yul Brynner, it's good enough for me.  

No, wait.  He was from Siam, right?  But he _did_ play the mandolin.

Mick

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## peterk

> Hey, if it's good enough for Yul Brynner, it's good enough for me.  
> 
> No, wait.  He was from Siam, right?  But he _did_ play the mandolin.
> 
> Mick


 :Laughing: 
I guess he did, unless he preferred ban-jo like Steve Martin. :Grin:

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## peterk

Here's some Italian eye candy for you. 
The first one is a "melancholy" theme mandolin from Catania, Sicily. :Redface: 
The heraldic-lion-on-scroll pickguard is not entirely uncommon. It belongs to a mandola or an octave mandolin by an unknown maker, but it doesn't appear very old, judging by the fresh looking materials.
The Vinaccia looks like an early mandolin, well preserved for its age...very probably restored not long ago.

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## peterk

> Of course... no excuse for my ignorance... and I didn't see that "lli" above the F on the tailpiece. "Ah, yes, yet another example of those mandolins made by the prodigious Fratelli Brothers..."Jim


Jim, that is truly funny. :Laughing:  However, all kidding aside, I just can not understand why the most prolific ones of all Italian mandolin builders seldom if ever get any attention :Confused: .....obviously I am talking about Sig. Casa Fondata, Sig. Sicilio Catani, Sig Fratelli and Sig. Figlio.
Then of course, there is ubiquitous Signor Fu who might have been of Chinese ancestry.

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## brunello97

> Jim, that is truly funny. However, all kidding aside, I just can not understand why the most prolific ones of all Italian mandolin builders seldom if ever get any attention.....obviously I am talking about Sig. Casa Fondata, Sig. Sicilio Catani, Sig Fratelli and Sig. Figlio.
> Then of course, there is ubiquitous Signor Fu who might have been of Chinese ancestry.


One of my favorite places in Firenze is a _tiny_ sandwich joint called _I Fratellini_.  Two guys run it, though they obviously aren't brothers, and have a sort of Penn and Teller schtick.  One 'brother' never says anything and the other is a motormouth running on in commentary, insults and jokes in a dozen mixed languages like the monk in "The Name of the Rose."  When I introduced myself he said his name was "Hermano".  _Cue rimshot._

Mick

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## peterk

> One of my favorite places in Firenze is a _tiny_ sandwich joint called _I Fratellini_.  Two guys run it, though they obviously aren't brothers, and have a sort of Penn and Teller schtick.  One 'brother' never says anything and the other is a motormouth running on in commentary, insults and jokes in a dozen mixed languages like the monk in "The Name of the Rose."  When I introduced myself he said his name was "Hermano".  _Cue rimshot._
> 
> Mick


Mick, a vision of those two fratellini of yours cracked me up. :Laughing:  
Here's a funny Italian "fratellini" duo of whom my older generation just couldn't get enough: venerable Franco e Ciccio singing some Neapolitan tunes .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j__17KvYAWU

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## brunello97

Wow, that stuff is nutty.  Canadian TV must have been pretty cool back then. We just had all the X___ stations from Mexico and Univision which will cueball one's musical head. 

Now I can pick up Randy Bachman's "Vinyl Tap" on CBC which I really enjoy. With Marian McPartland gone it is my favorite radio music show.  (Okay Tremolo is up there as well.)

Lots of duo Italian musical acts here before my time. If you haven't checked out Sheri Mignano's "Mandolins, Like Salami" about the early Italian mandolin scene in SF, it is a great read.

Mick

As Warren Zevon wisely said "Enjoy every sandwich."

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## billkilpatrick

the words "much" and "too" and "top" and "over the" spring to mind:

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## peterk

Thanx Mick, I shall get that Sheri Mignano's book.
BTW, that's a nice picture of two happy Florentine lads. :Smile:

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## peterk

> the words "much" and "too" and "top" and "over the" spring to mind:


That top art reminds me of a Navajo weave rug I saw somewhere, some time ago. :Grin:

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## peterk

This Vinaccia mandolin is back on eBay, this time with a BIN price of Euro 5,000, and accepting offers too.
A few weeks ago it failed to sell because a few bids around Euro 2,100 were below the reserve.
http://http://www.ebay.it/itm/Mandol...item2ed01f0cbb
My guess is that Euro 2,500-3,000 would buy the instrument, but I am not going to try to find out. :Grin:

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## Jim Garber

> Here's some Italian eye candy for you. 
> The Vinaccia looks like an early mandolin, well preserved for its age...very probably restored not long ago.


Where did you see that Vinaccia? Is it really a Vinaccia?

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## Jim Garber

> An exceptional DeMeglio (in exceptional condition) on the ebay this morning.
> 
> Looks like it arrived via a Time Machine.
> 
> Mick
> 
> So I tossed in a bid....We'll see.


So, Mick... did you get it or not?

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## brunello97

> So, Mick... did you get it or not?


No, Jim, I did not.  The seller came back with a considerably higher shipping charge to the US than his original estimate.  Add that to the bidding and it would have gone up to $9c for me. Tant pis, it was quite nice but I can't be dealing that for a De Meglio right now.  Eyes on the prize.....

Mick

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## peterk

> Where did you see that Vinaccia? Is it really a Vinaccia?


I have no first hand knowledge of that mandolin. The owner of the mandolin presented it as a late 18th century Vinaccia on a classical mandolin web site (Italian).

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## Jim Garber

> I have no first hand knowledge of that mandolin. The owner of the mandolin presented it as a late 18th century Vinaccia on a classical mandolin web site (Italian).


Thanks, Peter. I am just curious about that one which sort of looks like an 18th century Vinaccia. Do you have the link for that site?

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## peterk

Jim, I must have deleted the link to that website.....when I stumble upon it again I'll make sure to post it here.

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## peterk

Signor Casa Fondata strikes again ! :Disbelief:  :Grin: 
Sam's Taiwanese workshop has a restored "Francesco" mandolin for sale on eBay, and they date it as year *1840*. :Confused: 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRANCESCO-an...item5406e9d630
Now, their description states the mandolin was made by Francesco* Perretti* & sons. That may well be, however, the entire mandolin top looks like a fresh replacement, although they might have "only" done a new inlayed pickguard as well as a soundhole rosette. While I do understand that Sam might be trying to enhance the sale potential of that mandolin by doing a  laborious bling-up makeover on it, I wonder why they'd leave the tailpiece in its original corroded state ? Perhaps in order to preserve *some* of the mandolin's "antique character" ? :Wink:

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## peterk

This "Bruno" brand mandolin was probably discussed already sometime last year, when the instrument was changing its owner. Plenty of "bling", and some of it is very fine. 
(Based on one "Bruno" mandolin I've recently acquired, some disappointing aspects of its build have surfaced after I started poking under its superficial "bling".  I do not even know yet what the mandolin sounds like because I am still working on it.)

I understand this showpiece mandolin is unfortunately afflicted by an all too common problem of vintage bb mandolins: bowed neck. The neck repair would entail surgery of some sort, and that would mean the fretboard removal, which in the case of those MOP-on-MOP inlays becomes a risky procedure. I believe the mandolin's current owner has realised the problem of making his museum piece playable, and thus I think they would part with it under relatively favourable terms.  I'd be interested if I had a viable repair option myself, but I am not there yet. Those fretboard MOP segments would be awfully hard to replace if they crack during removal.  If it were not for those elaborate inlays, I guess the challenge would be much smaller.

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## Jim Garber

> I vowed "no more!!" but like potato chips... This was too much to pass up esp since there are so few by this maker. According to reliable sources the only instruments by Philip Interdonati that have been discovered have been a couple of amazing guitars and two violins that are owned by descendants. This is (so far) the only mandolin done in his inimitable style that exists. 
> 
> I believe that the fretboard is not original -- it should have been thinner and extended similar to that on ones made in Napoli. neck construction is more similar to Italian makers of the period rather than American. i will post some more pictures later. these are from the dealer.
> 
> Ornamentation is a little over the top for me, however I am hoping that tonally it will be unique. The two guitars that exist supposedly sound and play wonderfully.


I acquired this a little over three years ago (see above), sent it to *Todd Cambio* (luthier extraordinaire) in Madison, WI and with Todd's busy building schedule finally got it back yesterday. I tuned it up with the GHS strings it has on it at the moment and it sounds pretty good. I will put some Calace strings on it after it gets acclimated.

You can see the older photos *here* and *here*.

Here are a few recent, post restoration. I wasn't quite sure of the originality of the compensated bridge (unusual for a bowlback) but Todd thinks that it is original.

A bit too much _verboten_ material, but what can you do? BTW after I posted this another Interdonati mandolin showed up in these Forums. That one was a copy of a Martin archtop mandolin.

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## peterk

That is a very fine looking mandolin, Jim, very distinctive and lofty in style.
I suppose you younger bucks have enough years left, thus a three year waiting period for repair completion may be kind of OK.  :Grin: 
However, I am really curious, what were the main repairs that Todd did on the mandolin ?

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## Jim Garber

I think there were some pearl pieces missing but the main work was done on the fretboard. Younger bucks? If anything, I have infinite patience and other instruments. I once waited 5 years for a restoration on a guitar. I ha d almost forgotten about it and it was like getting a new instrument.

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## peterk

Here's an interesting bb mandolin being auctioned on German eBay. The embossed stamp on the soundboard looks like brandname "Vogtlands Stolz", with possibly a nightingale shown singing. I am inclined to interpret the brand to mean "Vogtland's pride", and that would imply some sort of a link with the town of Markneukirchen which is located within the Vogtland region. The instrument has some Neapolitan design traits, although it could have been made in Markneukirchen. Given the brand stamp and the absence of an interior label, I am inclined to think that this was a workshop (cottage industry) mandolin as opposed to being master luthier made.
The tuning machines are of an alternative encased design which, while not entirely uncommon, has never taken off in its application. The MOP inlay pattern is jarringly different for the soundboard edging and the soundhole rosette. I think good Italian makers would generally strive to have a uniformly styled ornaments throughout their mandolins, although I've seen some exceptions to that too.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Vogtland-s-St...item4d1b035a3f

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## Jim Garber

> Here's an interesting bb mandolin being auctioned on German eBay. The embossed stamp on the soundboard looks like brandname "Vogtlands Stolz", with possibly a nightingale shown singing. I am inclined to interpret the brand to mean "Vogtlands' pride", and that would imply some sort of a link with the town of Markneukirchen which is located within the Vogtlands region. The instrument has some Neapolitan design traits, although it could have been made in Markneukirchen. Given the brand stamp and the absence of an interior label, I am inclined to think that this was a workshop (cottage industry) mandolin as opposed to being master luthier made.
> The tuning machines are of an alternative encased design which, while not entirely uncommon, has never taken off in its application. The MOP inlay pattern is jarringly different for the soundboard edging and the soundhole rosette. I think good Italian makers would generally strive to have a uniformly styled ornaments throughout their mandolins, although I've seen some exceptions to that too.


A few photos for historical purposes -- when the auction is gone.

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## peterk

Here's another German eBay mandolin curiosum: a nice looking mandolin with possibly some sort of a historical record scratched onto the soundboard. There is a sketch of a soldier wearing a_ stahlhelm_ , plus there are some scribblings alongside the soundboard purfling. While the German _soldatesque_ entered the WW I wearing the _pickelhaube_ style helmets, in 1915 they did a wholesale change to the_ stahlhelm_ type. Therefore, it is possible those scribbles go all the way back to the WW I days.
My very tentative guess is that the text makes a reference to the major WW I campaigns in which a German soldier, the instrument owner, took part, however that is a long shot in the absence of a physical mandolin inspection.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/alte-Mandoline-mit-Stahlhelmmotiv-/141240334282?pt=Militaria&hash=item20e29477ca

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## brunello97

I tend to enjoy the double banding of inlay on the tops that one sees on some Catanese mandolins.  That 'barber pole of Seville' inlay is one of my favorites. While I don't find this completely hideous, it is a bit of a hash of competing decorative ideas. Looks to be in pretty good condition.

Martin has weighed in a number of times here with thoughts on the Markneukirchen scene.  Lots of instruments pumped out of there to be sold across Germany and elsewhere I suppose.  Labeling seems as chimerical as we've seen in Italy.

Weymann used those top mounted inset tuners on a range of their mandolins. I like their look.

Mick

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## peterk

> I tend to enjoy the double banding of inlay on the tops that one sees on some Catanese mandolins.  That 'barber pole of Seville' inlay is one of my favorites. While I don't find this completely hideous, it is a bit of a hash of competing decorative ideas. Looks to be in pretty good condition.
> 
> 
> Mick


If we used the architecture vernacular, the rosette is inlayed in some sort of a derivative of the Greek fret band (or Meander border), while the soundboard edging is of an interlaced (braided) band type. Alas, on that particular instrument, the ornament group (i.e., rosette, pickguard and soundboard edging) styles seem to have been chosen at random, one with no consideration of another. :Whistling:

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## brunello97

From my professional experience the architectural _vernacular_ will often lead to misunderstandings. I recall when I referred to the alternating black / white banding as _Sienese,_ it created a bit of a fuss.  :Wink:   Then there is the volatility around the use of _volute_. 

I'm pretty sure in my old (1913) copy of Banister Fletcher that "Barber Pole of Seville" was used as a proper _technical_ architectural term.  But I'll have to check to be certain.    

Now that I am here in the Ivory Tower most of us prefer to use the architectural _avuncular_.

Mick

----------


## peterk

Mick, if people learn the new word "volute" for the first time is association with that protozoan protuberant curled proboscis of F-mandolin bodies, then they measure all other things in relation to it. If you learned of the volutes as a key element of the Ionian order column, then, your definition of a volute will probably differ.
Thankfully, violins and such have "scrolls",and no volutes. :Grin:

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## Jim Garber

Isn't the mis-nomer of a volute on a fretted instrument the diamond or whatever shape on the beck of the neck usually over the neck joint. Evidently even Martin called it that back in whatever day.

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## brunello97

CF Martin called that bifurcated neck cone a _volute_?  Is that on record somewhere?

I have no issue with the scroll on a Gibson F model being referred to as a volute. That's what it is. No _avuncularisms_ there.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I learned my lesson from Sr. Mick many moons ago about volute. I will check on the use by CF Martin Co but I know they have used it in recent days:

*Jeff Daniels Custom Artist Edition*:



> The back and sides are rare Madagascar rosewood, the top is Adirondack spruce reinforced with 1/4-inch scalloped Adirondack spruce bracing, the modified V neck with *long diamond volute* is carved from genuine mahogany, and the fingerboard and belly bridge are crafted from black ebony. Instead of the usual "natural” finish, the top of the OM Jeff Daniels Custom Artist sports a rare and extraordinarily beautiful 1932 shaded finish.



*Paul Simon PS2*:



> The neck is crafted of genuine mahogany and features the traditional Martin diamond *volute*.


...and over and over and over...

This *extensive collector site* uses that term, Speaking Volutes.

Whatever can we do when people like Walter Carter and George Gruhn use that term?

----------


## brunello97

> Whatever can we do when people like Walter Carter and George Gruhn use that term?


Speak truth to power..... :Chicken: 

Mick

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## Beanzy

So one with the twirly bit is con-voluted and an A type sin-voluted?.  :Grin:

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## Eugene

I always knew the outer surface of Martin's historic v-joined headstocks--that little mahogany dart from the neck into headstock territory--as "volute."  It's been in my vocabulary so long, I'm not certain from what source it came.  Carry on.

----------


## brunello97

> .....It's been in my vocabulary so long, I'm not certain from what source it came.


Probably from someone who was confused as to the meaning of the term.   :Wink: 

But, Eug, I should have guessed our resident expert on marine life might provide a clue.  The Martin neck joint does resemble the _outside_ form of some fossils referred to as guess what...

Mick

----------


## peterk

:Whistling:

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## brunello97

> 


Yup.  We've been through this a few times already, Peter, complete with the necessary Vitruvian graphics.  Little headway.

I'm on to my Miocene / Pliocene shell theory now.  Eug probably has a examples in his office. 

Mick

----------


## Eugene

Mmmm, marine life . . .

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## peterk

> Yup.  We've been through this a few times already, Peter, complete with the necessary Vitruvian graphics.


Those sorta drawings go back to *The Ten books of Architecture* by Leon Battista Alberti, 1755.  I used to have a fine Latin lingo copy of the Vitruvius though, and for the life of me I can not find it now. (Very comprehensive 1867 Encyclopedia of Architecture by Joseph Gwilt has been my faithful companion for many years, although perhaps a bit *convoluted* technically and linguistically.)

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## brunello97

You're trying to one-up an architect with a reference to Alberti? Yikes.  :Whistling:   Pretty sure Gwilt was silent on the _Barber Poles of Seville_ which is one reason why Fletcher became ascendant: the comparative method.

I think I did post Vitruvius in the last go round on this. LBA was dead for 300 years by 1755. If you want to impress those Nashville guys, you got to go back to the _root_.

Anyhow, I think the fossil volutes may be the key to unspiraling what has longed seemed a malaprop worthy of that other great Italian writer: Norman Lawrence Crosby.

Mick

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## peterk

> LBA was dead for 300 years by 1755.


Well, if you happen to own an edition preceding my 1755 one (a reprint), then I'll trade you one of my catenated neck mandolins for it. :Grin:

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## brunello97

> Well, if you happen to own an edition preceding my 1755 one (a reprint), then I'll trade you one of my catenated neck mandolins for it.


Thanks, but the book I really want is the _Eugene Braig Guide to Grilling (Great Lakes Fish)._ 

Mick

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## peterk

Mick, I've found another 1914 edition of Vitruvius, in English. Close to the end of Book IV, Proportions, he writes this:" _With regard to the method of describing volutes, at the end of the book a figure will be subjoined and a calculation showing how they may be described so that their spirals may be true to the compass._"
That's it. In my edition there are no figures and no calculations "subjoined". However, if there was a figure extant in the book, I think it would show pretty much a classic Ionic capital volute which had been drawn and described in later works on architecture.

OK, back to Gibson's, or whoever invented it, F-style "volutes". :Grin:

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## brunello97

Check.  My Vitruvius is from MCMLXXXVIII translated into Texan from the Iconic MCMXIV version.  He goes Ionic in Book III Chapter V.

Just for clarity's sake: the Gibson scrolls / volutes were not the matter of discussion or debate here, but rather the conic neck-to-head joints on Martin (and some other) mandolins of the era. The Fossil Record just might provide Jim a little revolving room on this one after all.  

Mick

----------


## peterk

Ok, I guess a question I'd ask is how could anyone see a volute in a straightforward cone ?
Similarly, if I were to call my mandolins the "jaw harps", one would need to explore the psychological background of taking such lexic "liberty".

----------


## peterk

Thailand's Sam has listed yet another "restored Vinaccia" mandolin on eBay, which appears to be priced moderately.
I am quite intrigued by his restoration methods, and would love to see some "before" and "after" instrument pictures. However, I guess I am not intrigued enough to buy one of his "restored Italian" mandolins.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINACCIA-ant...item5afe248dce

----------


## Beanzy

From the pics I am led to presume he sets to with the wire wool and takes them down to the wood, replaces anything too knackered and gives them a good go with the shellac. A kind of "vintage schmintage" approach. You'd be all good for another century or so as a players instrument though  :Smile:

----------


## peterk

Beanzy, I believe that "restoration" goes quite deep: how about replacing the entire soundboard including a brand new pickguard with new inlays, added a new band of inlaid edging, new inlaid rosette, new headstock inlay, probably refret, etc. That would be my wild guess, and I could be wrong there.
(I know, that sounds like lottsa work, and it probably is, although such restoration cost obviously depends on the workers' wages.)

----------


## brunello97

Has anyone tried one of these? I'd be curious to confirm whether Beanzy or Peter's prop on the top was correct.  I've thought both ways myself.  If these did undergo a thorough non-random hippie sanding, had their MOP replaced and fretboards 'corrected', then well maybe Tonio T is providing something for the 22nd C.  

Looks like original tuners. Can you guys see the frets better than I?  They look pretty wide.  Maybe I'm mistaken. The before and after pix would be great and probably be a useful selling point as it certainly is with say, Dave H and Jake.

If he his starting from perfectly fine instruments that would be another story.... Maybe he is buying wrecks and just keeping the neck, bowl and label, of course and replacing all else.  Calling it a 'restored V______' would be disingenuous if not deceitful.    

I wish somebody in his shop would learn to French Polish. Those matt (sprayed?) backs really look unappealing to my eye. 

Mick

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## peterk

This afternoon *I think* I confirmed with Sam that he replaced the soundboard: lock, stock and barrel. Some uncertainty is still left in my mind though because of foreign language impediments in such communication. 
I agree with Mick, the tuning machines seem original, so is the label ( :Grin: ) and the headstock finial (bone). The neck as well as the headstock might have been re-veneered and refinished. The bowl is probably largely original, yet repaired/reglued and refinished. Indeed, that low gloss lacquer spray is decidedly unappealing to my eyes as well. They would do much better even with several coats of True-oil.

----------


## brunello97

Peter, do you care to post what Sam Tsai had to say about the tops?  Or is that on the QT?

Half my family is from Louisiana so I have _some_ experience dealing with complexifications of lexitographies or other convolutionary grammaticals.   No promises though.

Mick

----------


## peterk

He he, Mick, I am sure you are more than qualified to untangle even oriental languages, however, the major source of my reservations stems from Sam's use of "frontboard" to designate what I believe is the entire soundboard. 
I hope he doesn't mean the fretboard/soundhole bout alone, which is about 1/2 of the soundboard or mandolin belly. ( Even I get onto treacherous ground once I start transplanting the violin build nomenclature to bb mandolins.)
However, when it comes to the pickguard, he is pretty clear in saying that he made a new one from scratch.

----------


## brunello97

Maybe "Frontboard" = "Fretboard"?  Top does look like all one piece be it new or original.

It's in his best interest to be clear.  Or maybe he has an existing market who don't mind? He does seem to keep churning them out. 

Sure would like to know if he is chop-shopping good instruments or Frankensteining basket cases back to an alternative life.

Mick

----------


## peterk

> Sure would like to know if he is chop-shopping good instruments or Frankensteining basket cases back to an alternative life.
> 
> Mick


Mick, I am pretty sure he is hunting for mandolin derelict-quary all over eBay and elsewhere.....I think his business is based on his ability to get cheap mandolin "raw material" from diverse western sources, and then utilize his low priced yet skilled manpower resource to convert those derelicts into higher value instruments which he then re-injects to the market.

----------


## brunello97

> Mick, I am pretty sure he is hunting for mandolin derelict-quary all over eBay and elsewhere.....I think his business is based on his ability to get cheap mandolin "raw material" from diverse western sources, and then utilize his low priced yet skilled manpower resource to convert those derelicts into higher value instruments which he then re-injects to the market.


Well, that's what we have always assumed over the years.  Actual information from them (or actual interest from us) has been lacking.

The bionic-Vinaccia does look a bit better than much of his work which redirected my usual yawn.  Plus it got me off the topic of seashells and geometry.

Mick

----------


## peterk

I see their business evolving in the direction of much improved mechanical integrity and dimensional stability of their mandolins. Also, they will perfect the tonal performance of their instruments. If and when they reach that business development point, their top of the line mandolins might become very desirable and would command high prices. However, at present they still seem to be in an early "fixit-blingit" phase.

----------


## brunello97

The body shape and detailing on this Ditson labeled bowl back on the ebay looks Martin-made to me.   The curious headstock shape, however, looks unfamiliar and throws me off.  

The jobber Martins I have seen (or owned) do look pretty clearly from Martin.  Any thoughts on this one?

Mick

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## Eugene

I agree.  I don't know of any other maker to position the soundhole to allow 20 full frets.

----------


## brunello97

> I agree.  I don't know of any other maker to position the soundhole to allow 20 full frets.


Not a steal at $625 but a reasonable price for a Martin these days, I would hazard. Looks to be in fine condition. I no longer have a Martin bowl, but the one I did have (a few steps lesser model than this) was very nice sounding, very balanced mandolin.

I'm not in the market but this would be a good acquisition for someone.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Interesting... I have seen Ditson bowlbacks with Vega affectations... not sure about Martin. Anything is, of course, possible.

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## tkdboyd

I never thought I would get into Bowlbacks, but I am getting the "bug". Looking everyday, this one is way over anything I would (could) pay, but it is in incredible shape: Martin

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## Jim Garber

That does look like a No. 7 tho when you get up to the stratosphere in those Martins the styles get a little fuzzy between 6 and 7. My 6 started off this thread: *Post a Picture of Your Bowlback*.

----------


## peterk

> I never thought I would get into Bowlbacks, but I am getting the "bug". Looking everyday, this one is way over anything I would (could) pay, but it is in incredible shape: Martin


That is a nice mandolin.
Mick, I'd just like to let you know that I will not be bidding on this fancy Martin either, so it's all yours. :Coffee:

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## Jim Garber

Man, what is it with you guys. The price that is at is about what an A-5 would cost from a decent maker these days. Those N.7 Martins Are super rare. You may not see another. Empty your bank accounts.  :Smile:

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## brunello97

> Interesting... I have seen Ditson bowlbacks with Vega affectations... not sure about Martin. Anything is, of course, possible.


Jim, I have a few Ditson / Martins bowls in my files.  I can post an example when I get home. I think Martin bowlback profiles are almost as uniquely identifiable as Emberghers.  

I did own a Martin made Ditson flatback for a nice while.  It was essentially a Martin B, w rosewood back, hole-in-headstock, but with some different inlays.  Pretty identical otherwise.  

Mick

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## brunello97

> That is a nice mandolin.
> Mick, I'd just like to let you know that I will not be bidding on this fancy Martin either, so it's all yours.


Let me repeat:  I'm not in the market but this would be a good acquisition for someone.

It is spring at last and I am concentrating on dealing with my GAS (guayabera acquisition syndrome.)  Cheaper and equally functional.

Mick

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## tkdboyd

That Pandini on the other thread is absolutely beautiful, I really like how understated it is. But your Martin is gorgeous, would be to worried about it to play it though.

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## brunello97

> Man, what is it with you guys. The price that is at is about what an A-5 would cost from a decent maker these days. Those N.7 Martins Are super rare. You may not see another. Empty your bank accounts.


I dig the fluted RW bowl, but never been a fan of how Martin did bling. Too fussy for me.  I prefer the simpler unadorned models.  I haven't played one of the upper end bowls so can't comment on their sound.  I know Eugene loves his. 

Mick

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## peterk

If I was going to spend that sort of money on a vintage bb mandolin, then a half-decent Embergher (such as this one on eBay:http://www.ebay.de/itm/einzigartige-...item2583caf1f3) would be my much preferred choice over a blinged-up Martin, because at the end of the day, I do play music on my mandolins. :Grin:

----------


## brunello97

I like that 'plain' Embergher model, too, but neck / bridge combo is going to cost you some pesetas to get playable. Those Martins look _outdebox_.  For those of us who do play our mandolins. 

Don't underestimate how good Martins sound, Peter, particularly if you have played neither.  :Grin: 

Mick

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## vkioulaphides

_outdebox_ does it for me, lonely fan of _new_ mandolins.  :Grin:  (_Must_ remember to use that term at the next meeting on software implementation...  :Laughing:  )

Cheers, 

Victor

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## peterk

> Don't underestimate how good Martins sound, Peter, particularly if you have played neither.


You see, Mick, not having a dog in that race means that I am left with having to follow the lead as well as the opinion of experts. How many professional/renowned bb mandolin players do you know of who have chosen a Martin instrument as their performance mandolin ? That sort of a consideration would be helpful to me as well as anyone else who doesn't have any first hand experience in this matter.

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## Eugene

Yes, I love fluted ribs.  However, I'm not a fan of excess bling.  I still can't quite get comfortable with the Roman neck, so when I want to play, I reach for my reasonably decorated Martin instead of my sparsely ornamented de Santis.

I think the reason Martins are not selected by professional mandolinists is because, frankly, there aren't many American professionals to favor any Neapolitan-type bowlback whatsoever.  I have owned only two Martin bowlbacks: a one-of-a-kind 1908 similar to their style 6a and a 1915 style 2.  The one I kept (1908), I really like both the sound and playability, but it's frets are wearing out and I'm eager to retire it.  The one I sold (1915) felt about the same but was kinda twangy.  I've played a lot of others (including a friend's style 2).  Most sound better to me than otherwise, and I actually think compare quite nicely to good Roman tone.

----------

peterk

----------


## Jim Garber

As with many of these bowlbacks or even with other mandolins, much depends on the setup. I honestly do not my Style 6 partly because it is not properly set up. Of my American bowlbacks, my Vega style 3, equipped with Dogal Calace Dolce strings, has an incredibly sweet tone and a very comfortable neck and my Maurer bowlback (about the same level of ornamentation) is equally satisfying to play. 

The Roman style mandolins are much different from the Neapolitans. The vintage American bowlbacks are prob closer in structure and tone to the Neapolitans than the Romans. For some reason I am pretty comfortable playing my Embergher even tho the neck is seriously different from the others.

As far as professionals'  choice of mandolins: even in the bowlback world, despite its revered status there are few players who choose the Embergher. The ones I know are in Belgium and the Netherlands. I can't think of anyone even in italy who chooses to play the Embergher. Please correct me if I am wrong.

----------


## peterk

Late Giuseppe "Pippo" Anedda might have played an Embergher mandolin, or some sort of a Roman variant thereof.
Regardless of the instrument used, his music making was very special, as exemplified on the Ciaccona here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP2_kBKC9jU

By Jove, here is yet another American made BBB (Bowl Back Blinger) on eBay: this time one of them hi grade Washburns.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251494335399...84.m1431.l2649

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## Jim Garber

You are correct, Peter, about his playing an Embergher. 

I don't know why but I still prefer to hear the Ciaccona on violin. I find Anedda's version a bit grating on my ears... I think it is very hard to get the soulfulness of that movement on the mandolin, but I congratulate anyone for trying.

Those pearl-fretboard mandolins are a true pain to refret .. bowl back blinger, indeed.

----------


## peterk

> I don't know why but I still prefer to hear the Ciaccona on violin.


Jim, you've got a friend here: I also admire Anedda's mandolin virtuosity much more than any Ciaccona rendering on the mandolin, including his. According to internet sources, he has been considered if not the best Italian mandolin player, then surely one of a few most highly regarded mandolin virtuosos. There are also a few of his recordings of Vivaldi and Neapolitan traditional songs......I am trying to lay my hands on those.

----------


## Jim Garber

FMI has a whole page about him: *Giuseppe Anedda*

Here's another video:

----------

Hany Hayek, 

peterk

----------


## Jim Garber

> I never thought I would get into Bowlbacks, but I am getting the "bug". Looking everyday, this one is way over anything I would (could) pay, but it is in incredible shape: Martin


Seller ended the original auction and started *this one*.

----------


## peterk

> Seller ended the original auction and started *this one*.


Jim, I think you already own more than your fill of American BBBs. Now it is perhaps Mick's and my turn to take a kick at the cat. :Grin:  (However, given my champagne taste and beer money, I do not think I'll get very far in those auctions.)

----------


## Jim Garber

Nah... I have to get rid of them, not buy more...

BTW, Peter, I emailed you...

----------


## Eugene

I dislike the bling, but how could I not toss a low-ball bid at the Martin to simply stay informed of where it ends up?  Feel free to outbid me.  I don't really need another and still have a new commission pending.

----------


## Eugene

Regarding Anedda, Can I assume that you lot know several of his recordings are available as mp3 download from Amazon?

----------

peterk

----------


## Eugene

. . . And, for what it's worth, I'm thinking of selling my L&H-made Washburn style 225.  It's easily within playable parameters, but the action is a touch high for my taste.

----------


## peterk

> Nah... I have to get rid of them, not buy more...
> 
> BTW, Peter, I emailed you...


Jim, I haven't got the email yet. Please try MC messaging.

----------


## peterk

This is to illustrate as well as fortify our discussion of the restoration type done by the eBay seller Taisamlu (Sam). 
Here are two different old mandolins of which we know nothing, currently offered for sale, yet they appear to have been restored to a very similar ornamentation pattern.

----------


## Eugene

One-trick-pony-like, eh?  I actually bought the Washburn mentioned above from "Sam" many years ago, but it was unrestored and came to me with an inappropriate archtop bridge with no effort made to fit it to the flat top.  Weird.

----------


## peterk

Further to Sam's restoration of the Vinaccia discussed several days ago, here's a shot of the mandolin's tuning machines, which has been posted by the seller with his eBay listing. It is easy to see that each tuning machine is provisioned with five mounting screw holes. However, the restoration left each tuning machine with only two screws which secure the tuner to the headstock.
Furthermore, even those 2+2 screws used by Sam are not of a slotted head type which probably would have been used by the Vinaccia workshop.

----------


## Tavy

> Further to Sam's restoration of the Vinaccia discussed several days ago, here's a shot of the mandolin's tuning machines, which has been posted by the seller with his eBay listing. It is easy to see that each tuning machine is provisioned with five mounting screw holes. However, the restoration left each tuning machine with only two screws which secure the tuner to the headstock.
> Furthermore, even those 2+2 screws used by Sam are not of a slotted head type which probably would have been used by the Vinaccia workshop.


Oh my, 2 screws will simply not do it - once the strings are on they'll pull those every which way until something breaks.

I_ don't_ blame him from using cross-head screws though: if the original screws are shot then you have to replace with something, and so far I haven't found a source for regular single-slot machine-head screws  :Frown:

----------


## peterk

> I_ don't_ blame him from using cross-head screws though: if the original screws are shot then you have to replace with something, and so far I haven't found a source for regular single-slot machine-head screws


I'll send you some. :Wink:

----------


## Jim Garber

> Oh my, 2 screws will simply not do it - once the strings are on they'll pull those every which way until something breaks.
> 
> I_ don't_ blame him from using cross-head screws though: if the original screws are shot then you have to replace with something, and so far I haven't found a source for regular single-slot machine-head screws


Is there a world-wide single-slot screw shortage? Are these flat-head or pan-head wood screws and what specs? I have bought some very small screws from model making suppliers. I wonder if they would have the right kind.

----------


## peterk

> Is there a world-wide single-slot screw shortage? Are these flat-head or pan-head wood screws and what specs? I have bought some very small screws from model making suppliers. I wonder if they would have the right kind.


I do not think there is a real shortage, just that slotted head screws (no need to say "single" with slotted :Grin: ) have lost some ground to Phillips and Robertson heads, or combination heads. Some difficulty arises when trying to get* tiny* brass or steel wood screws. StewMac carries some, and a few sellers on eBay as well.

----------


## Jim Garber

This is the model building supply place in the US from which I have bought small parts. *MicroMark*  I don't know if these are the same size as needed tho. How can you tell?

----------


## peterk

I use slotted round head wood screws #2x3/8" on just about all vintage bb mandolins applications, be it the tailpiece screws or tuning machine screws. They tend to be slightly beefier than the original screws which IMO is exactly what's needed because the original screws often lose their bite due to a century's worth of wood shrinkage and screw hole crumbling.

----------


## tkdboyd

This one looks interesting! That fretboard looks like a dream to play on, of course that is if the top is still in good shape.

----------


## Jim Garber

> This one looks interesting! That fretboard looks like a dream to play on, of course that is if the top is still in good shape.


It looks like the bridge was shimmed up or something is under whatever they are using for a bridge. Dromsch is the maker of that tailpiece. Nice radiused fretboard.

That diamond-shape on the back of the neck (I have been told by some folks here that we should not call it a volute) is interesting and very unusual along with that radius. It looks sort of American but different. I do see a crack on the headstock that i would ask about if I were at all interested in purchasing. *Also: "Seller does not offer returns."*

I would ask for more photos esp from the side indicating neck angle. That bridge has multiple shims under it -- looks like wood and cardboard and cloth, for some odd reason.

----------


## peterk

An interesting instrument indeed with a mixture of German, Italian and perhaps some American features. The soundboard is real nice, and Jim is right, the headstock does seem to have a serious crack.  Those bridge shims do not augur well either. The two key questions one should be asking here are: (1) what's under the bridge, and (2) show me a side shot of the mandolin.

----------


## peterk

An Embergher mandolin (1913) appears in a fairly good condition, by a UK eBay seller. The BIN price is 1750 pounds ($2,940 US), offers accepted.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Lu...item233906dc0d

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## Jim Garber

Other than it looks a like it needs a bit of cleanup, not too bad, tho the price is what I would think would be a decent retail price for one in better shape. I would not be surprised if it needs some fret work and general set up. Nice stained bone tuning buttons.

----------


## peterk

Jim, not easy to say how much price leeway is there, but surely they must be some, otherwise the BIN price would have been firm. I would think this one is still a better option than a similar (same ?) Embergher model by "Leuterius" (Fabio) at $1,600, which would place the buyer onto a major restoration path.

----------


## tkdboyd

Glad _this isn't a BIN_, I would have some explaining to do to the Mrs!

----------


## Jim Garber

> Glad _this isn't a BIN_, I would have some explaining to do to the Mrs!


Nice looking Ditson Victory. These are the only other vintage bowlbacks other than Vegas that I know of that have the bridge on the tailpiece side of the cant which makes me wonder if there is a connection to Vega -- Ditson was also in Boston and was mostly a publishing house and music store. I don't believe that they  made anything. They also had a connection to Lyon & Healy but no L&H mandolins have that bridge position.

----------


## Jim Garber

> An Embergher mandolin (1913) appears in a fairly good condition, by a UK eBay seller. The BIN price is 1750 pounds ($2,940 US), offers accepted.
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Lu...item233906dc0d


There is a crack I just noticed on the upper part of the fretboard so, for a proper restoration, that would have to be addressed. It might possibly need a new fretboard and replacement of the barfrets. Knowing these and owning two from that period, I would say there are probably a few more issues that would need attending to make it right.

----------

peterk

----------


## Tavy

> Nice looking Ditson Victory. These are the only other vintage bowlbacks other than Vegas that I know of that have the bridge on the tailpiece side of the cant which makes me wonder if there is a connection to Vega -- Ditson was also in Boston and was mostly a publishing house and music store. I don't believe that they  made anything. They also had a connection to Lyon & Healy but no L&H mandolins have that bridge position.


The style of that one is very similar to my Fred Martin - also Boston of course.  I'd bet they all came out of the same Fairbanks/Vega shop, but we'll probably never know for sure.

----------


## JeffD

> An Embergher mandolin (1913) appears in a fairly good condition, by a UK eBay seller. The BIN price is 1750 pounds ($2,940 US), offers accepted.
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Lu...item233906dc0d


Is that kind of V neck typical of Embergher? That is pretty steep looking.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Is that kind of V neck typical of Embergher? That is pretty steep looking.


Yup, that this the difference between a Roman style vs. Neapolitan. It really makes little difference at least in my experience since you don't play it like you would play a guitar, in other words, resting your thumb on the back of the neck.

----------


## peterk

> The style of that one is very similar to my Fred Martin - also Boston of course.  I'd bet they all came out of the same Fairbanks/Vega shop, but we'll probably never know for sure.


I find the American bb making scene in the early 20th century utterly confusing with various dealers, wholesalers, distributors etc. coming and going, merging and separating. Can't tell who is only selling, and who is making, and who is doing both. However, when I take a look at the mandolins themselves, I see a very unified approach and execution, as if only few closely affiliated workshops used to sustain a massive and ever shifting retail chain superstructure.

----------


## Jim Garber

The distributor catalogs I have do indicate many cross-referenced brands, it is true. However, I don't think the Italians, Germans or French are any less confusing. For instance, there seems to be quite a few DeMeglio clones but it is not always easy to tell if they were made by DeMeglio shop or merely copies. Same goes for Gelas-style instruments in France. In Germany, we have Embergher clones and some possible actual imports. Let's face it: all this stuff is confusing. I am going back to bed. G'nite!  :Smile:

----------


## peterk

:Grin:  Jim, true enough, the bb mandolin story is a con*voluted* one, be it here or over there.
Incidentally, I really like my Hoffman Embergher. :Grin:

----------


## Jim Garber

I am looking for a Hoffman clone made by Embergher. I think it had a volute as well, but that was added by Calace.

----------

peterk

----------


## brunello97

> The distributor catalogs I have do indicate many cross-referenced brands, it is true. However, I don't think the Italians, Germans or French are any less confusing....


Personally, I think our understanding of US (and Italian) made bowlbacks has grown exponentially since I have been hanging out at the MC.  Jim, you and Mike E, Plami, Eugene, and of course Keef have made impressive contributions to a collective body of knowledge.  Yes, there are some mysterious trails (eg. the Lelands, the Harwoods) but an enormous amount of information and detail has been sorted out.  

Rather than the amorphous mass that Peter alludes to, there are clear and identifiable differences in design (and sound) between the Chicago builders, those in Nazareth, PA, Philadelphia and New York / Jersey and those in Boston.  One just has to read, look and listen.  And maybe actually play these instruments rather than popping off opinions or displays of pretentious authority.

These may be not as distinct as between Catania, Napoli and Rome but they are by no means a "very unified approach and execution".

Comping a Washburn a Martin and a Vega would yield very different builds, appearances and sounds.   The distinctions between the 'Carl Sandburg City-of-Broad-Shoulders' approach in Chicago (with woods that any Italian builder would give their denti occhio for) and the refined elegance and tone of Martin and the lightweight responsiveness of Vega and other Italian influenced builders in NY / NJ are clear and present---something which comically snobbish faux connoisseurs ignore to the detriment of their own credibility.  

We've made huge strides here in understanding the both tangible and ineffable qualities of bowlbacks.  Through the slow and productive process of looking, discussing and most importantly: playing. If you read back through the early days of the 'bowlbacks of note' thread you'll find a group of people working their way through a mysterious and delightful set of discoveries.  Very different from the 'instant expert' approach on display now.

This thread is the most comprehensive collection of information on bowlback mandolins that exists.  Keep up the good work.

Mick

----------


## RayMan7

Heres a Waldo bowlback mandolin that I just got, it may belong in this thread since it seems theres so few of them especially in playable condition.

----------

Jim Garber

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## tkdboyd

This one is back on Ebay with a lower BIN, if I had an extra $150.00 to throw at a potential wall hanger I would buy it. But I am not into the restoration hobby...could be, but have too many hobbies as it is!

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## Jim Garber

> This one is back on Ebay with a lower BIN, if I had an extra $150.00 to throw at a potential wall hanger I would buy it. But I am not into the restoration hobby...could be, but have too many hobbies as it is!


For your convenience, here's the *current listing*. This definitely needs some work for sure. The seller added a few pics, but here are most of them. The radiused fretboard looks nice but it might need a neck reset. I didn't see this last time (maybe there was no pic of it) but I now see deMeglio-style side vents.

----------


## tkdboyd

> For your convenience, here's the *current listing*


 Should have been more clear with my links. Sorry about that!

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## Jim Garber

Yet another Demeglio, semi fancy on *eBay UK*.

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## brunello97

We've discussed these_ Fratres Calaces Neapolis_ before.  Here's another example with a rorschach scratchplate that I find attractive.  Simple mandolin but rather elegant I think.

Mick

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## brunello97

Do the Embergheristas recognize this label variety?  It is a bit like one of the earlier LG labels (1889?) I have in my files but is on the via Carrozze address.  Also the headstock stamp is new to me.  (Which isn't saying much, I am v light on these in my files.)

Here it is on the ebay.

Mick

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## derbex

Blast, I was hoping no one would notice that one (fat chance). It probably won't happen, but I am tempted to take the bike over and have a look at it. Can't imagine that I can afford it though -unless I leave the bike  :Confused:  And I really want an OM.

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## Tavy

> Blast, I was hoping no one would notice that one


Hey me too!   :Mandosmiley:  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## brunello97

Sorry, fellas.  I hate to be the one to 'lower the radar' on this one.  I just figured enough folks (like me) have an Embergher 'saved search' on the ebay that nothing would slip by.  Jim's the only one I know whose gotten one for less than $2.00.   

This one looks clean and nice (an earlier model? a retro model?) but I'm not widely familiar with Embergher styles.  The price looks tempting right now.  A nine-day auction, though.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Hey Sr. Brunello... you see how rumors start? I never got an Embergher for less than $2.00 -- in fact my bargain of the decade(?) was 100 times that. OTOH, Mick... what did you pay for those Chuck Taylors???? Huh??

According to The Book: that Gand stamp indicates that this was imported into Belgium. The stamp above it indicates date until 1900 tho some of those stamps have been seen on later ones even as late as 1906.

This is a No. 1 and the seller is prob right that it is dated 1900. I understand that he may not have been able to photograph the whole label but usually the date is on the label. In any case, that label was used 1899-1900 as well.

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## brunello97

Oooh.  Early '90s Chucks....  Can't remember even where I bought them. Some place in Austin.  I left them in a closet in Italy, where they stayed for about five or six years complete with my favorite orthotics.  I thought all was lost until I rediscovered them a few years ago.  Can't get into the Ebay _vintage shoe_ market though.

Just teasing with the $1.99 tug, bro'. A couple of decimal points reside in the scope of J. Frank Dobie inspired hyperbole. You've got a sixth sense for making good deals.  

I love the look of this Embergher.  I know I've been snarky about the cluttery design of obverse side of the later models, but this one is just a beauty to my eye.  Kind of the ugly-duckling turned pretty.  The three position dots are for chicken-skin: Brilliant.  The clumsy flattened oval soundhole even looks good on this one. And the tantalizingly close fretboard extension is sweet.  Can you imagine if that were a scalloped maple bowl?

Awesome looking mandolin.  I hope John or Derbex can nail it.

Mick

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## tkdboyd

this is interesting http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Amer...item2c82ad843a with HSC. BIN price is decent too especially considering the cost of bowl back hard shell cases.

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## brunello97

The earl(ier) Embergher went for ~$1700, which seems like a pretty good price.  Was it anyone from the Brotherhood? Very nice looking mandolin.

Mick

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## Martin Veit

Hey Guys, i need a bit of your advice.
 These mandolins looks a lot like "De Santis" to me, 
but there is no label or brandstamp to see.
What do you think about it?

   

http://www.ebay.de/itm/390837655676?...84.m1423.l2649

Thanx,
 Martin

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## Graham McDonald

I would have thought between the wars German. I don't think I have ever seen a Roman mandolin with that style of scratch plate or the two timber bowls

Cheers




> Hey Guys, i need a bit of your advice.
>  These mandolins looks a lot like "De Santis" to me, 
> but there is no label or brandstamp to see.
> What do you think about it?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.de/itm/390837655676?...84.m1423.l2649
> 
> ...

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## brunello97

DeSantis?  As in Giovanni DeSantis?  I wouldn't think so. It doesn't show the refinement of material or craft we would expect from GdeS.  I agree with Graham that it appears considerably newer, and probably not of Italian make.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> this is interesting http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Amer...item2c82ad843a with HSC. BIN price is decent too especially considering the cost of bowl back hard shell cases.


I think I have one of those cases. FWIW I don't think it is original to that mandolin. That AmCon is a lower end one and a little funky esp the headstock which looks tattered on the edges and I can't figure out what those two screws in the middle of the back of the headstock are for. Besides the neck angle looks a little high, at least from that photo.

----------


## brunello97

Might be replacement tuners on the AC, Jim. See hole pattern on the tuner cover in the attached photo. 

There also appears to be an existing hole south of both tuner sets which does seem out of whack from the L+H example.  The tunrers also appear strangely close to the far end of the headstock. I'm not exactly sure, but wouldn't we be expecting to see tuners-under-the-posts at this time? 

Yeah, either that neck is funky or it is set up to play slide, one.

ACs are curious, I've seen some with true ebony fretboards and some that look like dye-jobs. This one looks like the latter but it is hard to tell from the photos.  The case might be worth it but I'd steer clear of the mando.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Actually I looked more carefully and it does look like there is a veneer or thin piece of wood screwed on the back of the headstock in order to cover the routing for the original tuners.

----------


## brunello97

Interesting Milanese mandolin on the ebay.it.  The photo of the label is too fuzzy for me to read, and doesn't match any of the (few) Mandos-from-Milano that I have in my files.  Any ideas?

Milano bowl

A bit of Calace meets Cristofaro meets Monzino in style.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Interesting Milanese mandolin on the ebay.it.  The photo of the label is too fuzzy for me to read, and doesn't match any of the (few) Mandos-from-Milano that I have in my files.  Any ideas?
> 
> Milano bowl
> 
> A bit of Calace meets Cristofaro meets Monzino in style.


I am still out of town but first name on label looks like Alessandro.

----------


## Jan Viljoen

Here is a nice web about bowlbacks. 

http://www.mandolinluthier.com/mandolins_for_sale.htm

 :Cool:

----------


## Tavy

I've no idea if these are any good, but looks interesting, a bowlback from Ibanez (who knew?)

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here is a nice web about bowlbacks. 
> 
> http://www.mandolinluthier.com/mandolins_for_sale.htm


That is our friend Dave Hynds who posts here from time to time.

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## Jim Garber

> I've no idea if these are any good, but looks interesting, a bowlback from Ibanez (who knew?)


That may be one of many mandolins under different labels made by the Suzuki Company.

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## Tavy

Somethings terribly wrong here.... this thread dropped off the first page!  :Smile: 

Here's an interesting one, what looks like a genuinely English made bowl back, probably made by a gifted amature or at least as a handmade one off in a sort of folk-art style:

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## Jim Garber

I like that squarish bowl and the wild headstock, John.

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## Tavy

> I like that squarish bowl and the wild headstock, John.


Me too, the rest of it though rather much less so!

----------


## derbex

I don't know -the dual bridge is an interesting concept  :Smile:

----------


## Tavy

> I don't know -the dual bridge is an interesting concept


I thought maybe it was a carry-handle?   :Mandosmiley:

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## Colin Lindsay

> I thought maybe it was a carry-handle?


Early pickup, maybe??? Hang on, we havent invented electricity yet.  :Redface:

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## Jim Garber

According to the seller, this *18th century Vinaccia* was converted from a 6 course instrument to a 4 course Neapolitan-tuned one.

----------

Margriet

----------


## Graham McDonald

Various people (or the same person under different identities?) have been trying to sell this one for years. For a long time they tried to claim it was all original, but at least now they are admitting it has been modified. I don't think it was ever a Vinaccia. The trapezoidal pick guard is very un-Vinaccia and much more typical of the Genoese instruments. Attached is a pic of a Genoese mandolin from the late 18th century

cheers






> According to the seller, this *18th century Vinaccia* was converted from a 6 course instrument to a 4 course Neapolitan-tuned one.

----------


## etbarbaric

Howdy folks.  Sorry for the long silence.  Yes... that instrument has been around for a while, and it has definitely been modified.

One thing though, I do recall seeing several of these six-course instruments with similar Vinaccia (Joannes Vinaccio) labels. I wondered at the time if one of the family had branched out to serve some niche market.  Anyone have any info?

Eric

----------


## Jim Garber

Take a look at *this "beauty"*. Looks like someone really wanted a more baroque-en mandolin and took a std turn-of-the-last-century neapolitan and converted with fixed moustache bridge and gut-like frets and some sort of parchment-like rosette. Very strange!!!

Unless, of course, I am mistaken and this is some sort of transitional instrument. Please let me know if that is the case.

----------


## brunello97

Not sure if this Ricca has shown up here before or not.  Not really all that special but I like some of the odd details on Ricca mandolins: the body shape, the headstock and of course the great tailpiece.  

The _scratchplate ordinaire_ is a bit of a design letdown, though, and the top on this looks pretty woeful.

I had a  pumpkin-top (?!) Ricca with some seriously nice bling on it for awhile.  One of the mandolins I kick myself for letting go of. 

I enjoy keeping an eye the Riccas that pass by. The NY / NJ Italian luthiers need an historical research / book treatment like has been done for the Chicagoians.  That would be quite a project....

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I do like the rosette which sort of echoes the "sunrise" tailpiece.

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## tkdboyd

Nothing really too noteworthy, but have been looking for a case for a bowlback, found one on Ebay with a mandolin in it for less than any HSC I have been able to find in the states. 
Surprising part is that I believe the mandolin is playable and, from what I can tell, doesn't sound horrible, potentially better than my current student model. Needs some bridge work, but that seems to be about it.

----------


## Bartk1448

Hi tkdboyd, et. al., I have that same mandolin from Taiwan.  It was the first mandolin I bought and I learned my lesson when the soundboard cracked very badly about a month after it was in my home.  It was playable at the beginning, now it sounds rather buzzy.  I figure the case is worth more than the mandolin too.

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## tkdboyd

> It was the first mandolin I bought and I learned my lesson when the soundboard cracked very badly about a month after it was in my home.


What gauge of string were you using? 

Is your Calace recent? 

Sorry for derailing the thread...

----------


## Bartk1448

Hi, I was using whatever strings came on the mandolin when it arrived from Taiwan.  My Calace is recent, I just got it a few months ago.  I love it so far.  It is a style 26.  Great for a new bowlback made in Naples at a lower price point than many of the Calace "copies" from builders in other countries.

----------

tkdboyd

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## tkdboyd

This one is interesting Anyone have any clue as to its lineage?

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## Jim Garber

I have to look thru my catalogs but my guess by the shape of the pickguard is William Tonk & Brothers from about the turn of the last century.

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## brunello97

Nice looking Mayflower bowlback for sale in the classifieds.  Very pretty mandolin. The action looks a bit high for my playing but it looks adjustable at the robust bridge. NFI on my part.

Not meaning to start a dustup but I wonder about the Larson attribution with these (Bob Hartmann's testament in his book notwithstanding.)  The back of the head / neck detail looks classic Boston / Vega to me as does the bridge placement and scratchplate profile. Other LarBros details don't seem present.  As always, the chances of me being wrong are high.  :Wink:  

None of that should suggest it isn't a lovely mandolin.  The Larsons may have a certain cachet, but Vega had the _sound_.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Larson...Larson...Larson...Larson...Larson...Larso  n...Larson...Larson...Larson...Larson...   :Smile:

----------


## brunello97

> Larson...Larson...Larson...Larson...Larson...Larso  n...Larson...Larson...Larson...Larson...


Like splinters from the True Cross.  :Wink: 

Mick

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## Martin Veit

Heyo friends,
its me again with some need for your aid.

I`ve bought a unknown mandoline some weeks ago at the bay.
It looks fine for me and i have done some very few "restauration" on it.
Just put the old finish down, because the abalone-inlays are a bit "yellow"
(only a very fine sanding with 1500 grain-size),
get some shellac finish on it,
cleaned the machineheads and the tail-piece and put new strings on it.

As far as i can hear or see, it is in a good condition.
There is a small crack in the soundhole-bindings and a small deformation beneath 
the scratchplate.

Now i'm wondering about the orign of the mandolin.
It seems very "roma" to me, but it could be a german copy as well.
There are no indicators on the mandolin.
Even the tail-piece, which says "marcelli" must have been renewed some years ago,
'cause there have been some different screwholes underneath the tail-piece.

When i put the dirt and smug of the top, i guess, i get an glimpse of a brandstamp
right down benath the bridge, but it must been sanded away some years ago.

What would you guys guess? Who did this instrument?
 :Whistling: 
Greets,

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Neck profile from what I can tell looks more rounded than Emberghers'. Marcelli, despite its Italian-sounding name is a German-made tailpiece. I know you said that it was prob after-market but the owner prob had one available. This looks to me to be a German copy of a Roman mandolin. How does it sound and play?it does look nice and in good condition.

----------


## Martin Veit

Jim,

yes, i though so too. It may be some good stuff from Marktneukirchen  :Smile: 

The sound is good in my opinion. Al lot of overtones and a long sustain.
What i think is, that the Martin-Strings are not the best choice for a BB. They are a little bit too bluegrassy, if you know what i mean.
Maybe i will take the mandolin with me to our orchestra practice. Have a comparision with the belcanto-mandolin and all the german-luthier-stuff the are playing.

You know, that in the german stringorchestras, the often play new handmade mandolins from german luthiers such as Woll or Launhardt or Stoll etc.
Very expansive stuff i guess.

Sounds more bright and fat in my opinion.

The italian mandolins ( and the old german "fakes" ) are more delightfull, more brilliant in my ear.

I don't own a lot of BB Mandolins by my own, so i only can compare it with my old Ibanez A 509 and therefor i can say, that the BB is much more soundfull. 

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

I personally prefer Dogal Calace roundwound strings on my bowlbacks, but I like the brighter sound. Some like Thomastik flatwound strings but I do not like them on bowlbacks. That is just my preference.

----------


## CHASAX

My new to me Vega


Anyone know what year was it made?
Has two small cracks in the top.  Plan to get those fixed.  How can I tell whether the luthier knows what he is doing?

----------


## Jim Garber

> My new to me Vega
> Anyone know what year was it made?
> Has two small cracks in the top.  Plan to get those fixed.  How can I tell whether the luthier knows what he is doing?


Usually the best we can do is to say around the turn of the last century. I believe the Regent line might have been the lower priced. At least all the ones I have seen with that label were plainer than the others.

----------

CHASAX

----------


## brunello97

Somewhere in my notes, I wrote that the Regent labeled line were existing / in progress stock from AC Fairbanks production when the companies merged / blurred into Vega around the turn of the century.  Of course, I didn't write down any citation for this so I may be spreading rumors.

The Vega label did evolve over the years and the label with the crown and name inside are some of the earlier ones I have seen.  From my experience, Vega / Fairbanks made nice instruments across all 'price points': very light weight and responsive relative to say L+H mandolins at the same $$.

How to determine a good luthier in your area?  Lots of folks post a separate inquiry in one of the more general topic threads (or in the builders / repair thread.)  You've got a nice mandolin there.  I wouldn't trust it to a jack-of-all trades repairperson.  

Ask to see some of their documented work.  Ask them to describe how they would go about making the repairs you desire.  You could ask a similar question here to some of the fine craftspeople who frequent the MC (John Maddock, for instance) and compare notes with what you find out from your luthier resources.  If you're not in a hurry a bit of research can save some headaches.

Mick

----------

CHASAX

----------


## StevieBGoode

I'm intrigued by this eBay listing for a Larson (maybe) bowl back:

http://r.ebay.com/Sh0t9y

It seems to have several Larsonesque features, but I'm far from an expert on these instruments. Any thoughts from the knowledgeable folks on this forum would be much appreciated. 


Thanks!


-- Steve

----------


## Jim Garber

Boy that big slab of MOP is ugly on that one. I have never seen Carleton. Of course, anything is possible with the Larsons, but I am always doubtful first -- I would like it proved to me. That bone bridge looks all wrong and may also be in the wrong position on the top. 

Then again, Mrs. Osswald did live or work in Chicago...

BTW the seller also has it listed on *reverb.com* with some additional photos.

Here is the excerpt from the article in the Chicago Tribune which really doesn't prove too much.

----------


## brunello97

Curious mandolin.  As Jim is, I am always initially skeptical of most Larson attributions.  There are just too many and often rely on sketchy details: a Waverly cloud tailpiece is inherently Larson?  That headstock profile?  I love the back neck / head joint on this bowl though-very elegant work which doesn't look like L+H or Vega.  Hard to get by the rather hideous front decoration.  The pieces of MOP are gorgeous.

The ad copy that did catch my eye was the 4-digit serial number on the soundhole brace.  The Leland mandolins I have (and their Ditson versions) as well as the Ditson Empire bowlback all feature the same SN system, type font and location.   

Bob Hartman and Keef Pleijsier contend that Larsons made the Lelands for L+H and Ditson. I remain cautiously unsure.  But I do believe that whoever made the Lelands made (at least some) Ditson Empires--including mine.  

It doesn't appear that the Larsons used a consistent SN system or location across the (many) branded mandolins they supposedly made.  Some Larson attributed mandolins have no SNs.  Granted, L+H or Vega might have relocated the SNs from where they typically put them for jobbed work.  

The SN system and location on this mandolin does seem to link it to the the Leland / (some) Ditson chain and may implicate the LarBros, if Bob H and Keef's theories are to be believed--Bob does have an example in his book of a _Mauer_ labeled flat back whose form is identical to the Leland / Ditson flatbacks.....

I was formulating a theory for awhile that the Larsons did bling work for L+H made instruments which might explain the hodge podge sets of features and explain some of the prodigious production attributed to them.  I've got no real information to back that thought up however.

This is missing some of the obvious LarBros DNA markers.  The SN has my interest hooked, though.  I'd like to hear Jake's take on this.  I hope he wanders by....

Mick

----------


## tkdboyd

Has anyone drooled over/considered the Rigel Bowlback in the classified offered up by Andy Marshall
If it weren't the season of doom (holiday season) I may very well consider it. But it isn't in my future. Just wondering what some around this thread might think.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Has anyone drooled over/considered the Rigel Bowlback in the classified offered up by Andy Marshall
> If it weren't the season of doom (holiday season) I may very well consider it. But it isn't in my future. Just wondering what some around this thread might think.


Interesting that it was built on a very basic Washburn bowl with only 11 ribs in the tater bug style of alternate rosewood and maple. Strange that the prior owner would have a luthier make a custom instrument from a lowly bowl. It has a long 14" scale and is electrified. Her are pics for when the ad is taken down.




> The third mandolin is a very special one-off instrument built by Pete Langdell at Rigel specifically for a certain customer's needs. I bought it second hand. It is a bowl-back mandolin made in March of 2008. The bowl is a "donor" from a turn-of-the-century Washburn instrument and has 11 ribs of alternating Brazilian Rosewood and highly-figured maple. The top that Pete made is Canadian Red Cedar. The neck is flamed Vermont Rock Maple and the radiused fingerboard is Ebony. The pick-guard is inlaid into the top, as was done with better-quality instruments of the early 1900s. There is extensive use of Abalone inlay on the pick-guard, rosette, fingerboard and headstock. It has a factory built-in Piezo pickup and a jack at the endpin. This is the only set-neck Rigel I have ever seen. There is a slight radius to the fingerboard, which makes this mandolin very comfortable and easy to play. The scale length is 14" and the nut is 1.16" wide. The sound is surprisingly clear and full, especially considering the rather narrow top. Plugged in, it sounds truly wonderful. This is a fancy instrument that may not be for everyone, but whoever gives it a home will be pleased, I am sure. It comes with a custom Cedar Creek hard case.

----------


## DavidKOS

> Interesting that it was built on a very basic Washburn bowl with only 11 ribs in the tater bug style of alternate rosewood and maple. Strange that the prior owner would have a luthier make a custom instrument from a lowly bowl. It has a long 14" scale and is electrified. Her are pics for when the ad is taken down.


"This is a fancy instrument that may not be for everyone"

It's pretty fancy but as you point out, it uses the back design of the most basic bowlbacks. Honestly the number of ribs has less effect on tone than the way the top is made, but it is an odd choice.

The big question is how does it sound? I could care less about all the other things which are cosmetic anyway.

----------


## Tavy

> Has anyone drooled over/considered the Rigel Bowlback in the classified offered up by Andy Marshall
> If it weren't the season of doom (holiday season) I may very well consider it. But it isn't in my future. Just wondering what some around this thread might think.


Interesting and definitely noteworthy, sure would be interesting to hear it.

----------


## Jim Garber

The most interesting part to me is the cedar top and the longer scale tho frankly I am quite used to the shorter scale on most bowlbacks. I wonder if Peter used a different bracing system. It is also hard to tell whether he made the top with a traditional cant or not. I agree with David that the cosmetics are, well, cosmetic...

----------


## tkdboyd

The cosmetic thing isn't what attracted me, the thought of a well regarded modern luthier putting together a new neck, radiused fingerboard, modern frets, etc...I would assume that the playability would be outstanding and the sound would most likely follow or Rigel wouldn't have done it. Unless it was for cosmetic purposes?

----------


## DavidKOS

> It is also hard to tell whether he made the top with a traditional cant or not.


Now that you mention it, the top looks flat not canted. Hmmmmm....I've seen that on a lot of Greek bouzoukis, and they sounded good too. My Greek made bowlback has a canted top, though, but it is a bit more of a rounded cant than the sharp line on the traditional Italian canted top.

----------


## brunello97

A sort of interesting (I'm assuming German...) bowlback on the Ebay this morning.  Nothing particularly special, but a few nice appointments such as the slightly elongated headstock and pretty tuners.  I like the tailpiece shape as well.  A clear example of one of the neck-headstock joints of the time.   Looks like a pretty rugged refinishing job on the bowl at some time or another. 

Mick

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## derbex

Raffaele Calace Bowlback Mandolin - 1935 - The FINEST mandolin on eBay! According to the seller :

http://r.ebay.com/fnGOqB

doh -it's also in the classifieds.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Patrick Melly

1990 Hopf Mandola:



Recently acquired through the Cafe classifieds; tuned as an octave mandolin at the 
moment.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Jim Garber

> Raffaele Calace Bowlback Mandolin - 1935 - The FINEST mandolin on eBay! According to the seller :
> 
> http://r.ebay.com/fnGOqB
> 
> doh -it's also in the classifieds.


I believe that is a style 13.

----------


## DavidKOS

> 1990 Hopf Mandola:
> 
> 
> Recently acquired through the Cafe classifieds; tuned as an octave mandolin at the 
> moment.


Using really thick strings for the GDAE tuning?

Hopf made nicely made instruments, although nothing fancy - just good sounding and easy to play.

----------


## brunello97

> I believe that is a style 13.


3/16" at the 19th fret is a little closer to a mandoline.

Nice mandolin, but the neck looks un poco chungo.

Mick

----------


## Martin Veit

Yes!
He is one of the more famous Luthiers in Germany.

According to my buddies, the best mandolins in germany are made by Alfred Woll at the moment.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Yes!
> He is one of the more famous Luthiers in Germany.
> 
> According to my buddies, the best mandolins in germany are made by Alfred Woll at the moment.


Martin: which maker are you referring to (or which post)?

*Alfred Woll* and *Klaus Knorr* and among the most respected makers. I have played a few Knorr instruments and the workmanship is excellent. The German style of mandolins are not my taste. Woll also does some excellent work on *vintage mandolins*. That no. 3 Embergher looks wonderful.

----------


## Martin Veit

Jim, sorry.

I'd like to say, that Hopf is indeed a very well known and famous Luthier.
But as i told, Alfred Woll is the first choice for mandolins, esp. from my buddies in our mandolin orchestra.

I agree with you, that the modern german mandolins do have some special kind of form.
But that depends in my opinion on the fact, that mandolin music in Germany developed into a niche-"product" in the last four or five decades.
My career in mandolinmusic (as well only as a guitar player in the orchastra) starts in 1975 at the tender age of 13  :Smile:  .
Well, as far as i can recognice, most of the played mandolins were these semi-plywood-style flatbowls.
And so it seems were the sound of the orchestras.
A very few players did have these belcanto embergher style roundbacks or some other italian roundbacks.

German "Volksmusik" didn't use mandolins or violins by contrast to your folk- and countrymusic.
There are no real roots for mandolins in this kind of music.
Only the few survivored orchestras do fly the flag of mandolin music.

The renaissance of mandolin music in the ears of the common people starts with "Volare" from Dean Martin  :Smile:  
But that is sure another story  :Smile:   :Smile: 

I remember the time, when roundbacks (or bowlbacks as you say) became more famous and the (west-)german luthiers began 
to show their skills in producing very fine and good roundbacks.
But they want to set new signs. Away from the old fashioned bowlbackmodels.

And than in 1989 we get the Ostgerman luthiers as well.
Marktneukirchen was never on our radar before. 
It may be an interessting theme for another thread maybe.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Patrick Melly

> Using really thick strings for the GDAE tuning?
> 
> Hopf made nicely made instruments, although nothing fancy - just good sounding and easy to play.


Hi David - I have a D'Addario FlatTop mandola set on the Hopf at the moment - .016. .024, and .035; for the G strings, I'm trying  .062s. The scale length is just 17 inches, so the G strings are a little weak. I am enjoying the instrument.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Martin Veit

Folks,

do you believe in the big hit on an ebay auction?

Well from now on I do  :Smile: 

I found an auction on ebay.de which shows the first picture
and my thoughts goes: " hmm - could it be tru? "



The seller wrotes, that this mandolin was build by
a woodworking artist named "Josef Aussen" in austria.
But this was confusing me, 'cause it looks like a fine calace mandolin
and with a sharp look on the label i imagined
the word "Raffael...."

Today, the parcel arived and - uuh - yes !!! it is tru  :Wink:

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Jim Garber

Lucky you, Martin -- and you have a good eye. The closest I came to that was a mandolin marked Rohlfing Music that turned out to be a Larson-made (most likely) Maurer.  In any case it is a nice one and the price was reasonable. I hope you did well on this one.

----------


## Martin Veit

Hi Jim,

its a thing with these old italian mandolins.
Although i have an interest in this intsruments
it's first for the woodwork and sound and so 
and only second for the playing.
But that doesn't mean, that i will play the mandolin only a few times.
Mayby later on, when my arms and hands losses there strongness i will turn
away the mandolone and guitar and go for the smaller ones.  :Smile: 

B.t.w. - the Calace seems to be a type 26 from 1951.
Am I right?

----------


## brunello97

Fair play to you, Martin!  I always love hearing these kind of stories.  :Smile: 

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

... "whenever a friend succeeds, a little something in me dies" - gore vidal

just kidding - great find!

----------


## brunello97

Interesting Ceccherini bowlback on the Ebay.UK this am.

A meticulous array of tiny brass screws are distributed around the top and bowl of the mandolin.  I haven't seen this before, but I don't have but a dozen UC examples in my files.   The screw locations seem to follow all major assembly joints, though I'm not sure about the row across the bowl radius.  

Any thoughts on this?

What's the opposite of 'reptile dentistry'?  Looks like watchmaker's work or at least a a facile reptile orthodontist. 

Mick

----------


## Eugene

Weird.  My first guess would be that the binding, etc. was repeatedly coming unglued and some past owner decided to finally fix it for good.  The craftsmanship appears impeccable if questionable.

----------


## brunello97

Must have been coming apart at every nail.  There's an added fine bit of collar at the neck joint as well.

I wonder if the two lines of screws along the back fasten into internal bracing of the bowls?  

Did Ceccherini experiment with any interior bowl bracing like we've seen on early Washburns?

One more UC question: does the second 'top' connect to the bowl sides or float free like a large format Virzi?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Interesting Ceccherini bowlback on the Ebay.UK this am.


Believe it or not, folks, I think this is all original. *Marc Silber* has a Ceccherini on his site since 2007 with those same screws. I don't believe that it is the same mandolin as the one in the UK. 

Here are some pics of Marc's. Despite Marc's assessment that the braces are attached with those little screws I would guess that they are purely decorative.

BTW check out the closeup of that UK one: pretty strange stringing (all wound) -- no wonder it has that big crack in the top:

----------


## brunello97

That is a different mandolin, for sure, Jim.  No top holes north of the bridge.  The current one on Ebay.uk looks like a replacement bridge to go along with the goofy stringing.  My hunch is that that is a shrinkage crack rather than a string tension problem.  Hard to tell from these photos if the neck got thrown out of alignment by that.

I can't really see if Marc Silber's has a brass collar at the neck joint, too. (At 1500 clams, it's likely to sit around for another seven years or more.)  Either two mandolins went to the same orthodontist or Ceccherini had an idea about something with these.  The craftwork is so well done that with two now in evidence, I'm inclined to think the latter.

Would be great if Martin would see this and weigh in.

Mick

----------


## Eugene

Wacky.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I wonder if the two lines of screws along the back fasten into internal bracing of the bowls?  
> 
> Did Ceccherini experiment with any interior bowl bracing like we've seen on early Washburns?
> 
> One more UC question: does the second 'top' connect to the bowl sides or float free like a large format Virzi?


Never seen those screws before, but I agree that they seem ornamental.  I prefer the somewhat plainer Ceccherinis with tulipwood binding over those with tortoiseshell binding.

As far as the double-top is concerned, they are free-floating at the edge, like a big Virzi (20 years earlier).  They connect to the forward transverse brace behind the soundhole with two small wooden tags, and similarly to the aft brace.  Also, there's a second small "soundhole" in the suspended top.

Martin

----------

derbex

----------


## derbex

I do quite like the look of it -seems to have a sort of steampunk thing going on. Shame it is in such a state.

----------


## brunello97

> As far as the double-top is concerned, they are free-floating at the edge, like a big Virzi (20 years earlier).  They connect to the forward transverse brace behind the soundhole with two small wooden tags, and similarly to the aft brace.  Also, there's a second small "soundhole" in the suspended top.
> 
> Martin


Thanks, Martin.  Do you know if the suspended top also has a cant in it to follow the profile of the proper top?

I'm putting a new top on a basket case MOR Neapolitan bowl and I thought since I had a bit of spruce around that I might try such an experiment.  It would be hard for me to exactly A:B but I've got another similar Italian bowl which might do as a 'constant'.

Is the suspended top the same thickness as the main top or is a bit thinner?

Thanks for any help!

Mick

----------


## Martin Veit

Weird!

But Eugene may be right. I vote also for a fixation at a later on repair.
No easy way to pilot-drill these holes,
not to speak about the bevel-drill.
It had to be done before the sanding,
so the screwheads can be leveled equal to the wood.

But guys - my dad would have killed me, 
if i would have left the screwheads in such a sloppy way.
They had to be all in the same direction, maybe parallel to the grain. :Smile:

----------


## derbex

ebay eu Embergher type 1 and another Calace for a mere 4000 euros!

Seem to be a fair amount of bowlbacks up at the moment -quite a nice looking Washburn too.

----------


## Tavy

There's a new-ish Calace up for quite a reasonable sum on eBay UK.

----------


## brunello97

> There's a new-ish Calace up for quite a reasonable sum on eBay UK.


Gotta say, I like the round sound hole / 'cartoon word balloon' scratch plate.  Nobody does asymmetry like Calace. 

Any word on how these new Calaces sound?  The quality of the detail work?

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Some are pretty decent for the price. Victor K has a No. 24 he bought a few years ago new from the factory. It needed a little set up tho and is his main instrument. It certainly has nice tone prob equal but less expensive than the Eastman bowlbacks. From my last price list (2012) I think it goes for 730.

I have also briefly played an upper-level Classico A but for that price -- about  2600 --was not as impressed.

----------


## Bob Clark

> Gotta say, I like the round sound hole / 'cartoon word balloon' scratch plate.  Nobody does asymmetry like Calace.


I'm with Mick on this one.  I really like the look.  If one of you buys it, I'd like to hear an audio clip.

----------


## Beanzy

No sound clips I'm sorry to say but I've heard Evdokia Bobotsova's brand-new Calace live and it really sounded excellent in comparison with that played by her Quartet Seasons partner Joanna Dimitrova. How you could define why I'm not even going to hazard a guess, there are too many potential variables. But what I can say it was a really impressive sound, it was the quality and complexity of sound rather than just volume which made it extra special. I can only really say the very newest Calace instruments from last year are well up there and able to deliver a sound that is really full and lively.

Here's a photo of the instrument.

----------

Bob Clark, 

brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Eugene

----------


## tkdboyd

There is a Calace from '74 in the Classifieds, has anyone thought much about that one? It is driving me a bit crazy. In the states so shipping wouldn't be a problem and it is at a very nice price point. If someone would go ahead and buy it, it would really keep me in better graces with my wife and my bank--or is there something bad about 40 year old Calace mandolins that would keep me from purchasing it?

----------


## Jim Garber

I have a 1974 Calace mandola and it's not as good as condition as that one but it actually sounds really nice. I have it tuned to standard American mandola CGDA but I was thinking of tuning it to European style GDAE.

----------


## Bob Clark

> There is a Calace from '74 in the Classifieds, has anyone thought much about that one? It is driving me a bit crazy. In the states so shipping wouldn't be a problem and it is at a very nice price point. If someone would go ahead and buy it, it would really keep me in better graces with my wife and my bank--or is there something bad about 40 year old Calace mandolins that would keep me from purchasing it?


Yeah, you're not the only one being driven nuts by that one.  I will resist, I will resist, I will resist.......

OK, somebody please buy it now.  I can resist only just so long.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here's an *Embergher of note*... ostensibly (from the seller's description) a No. 7 (really a custom ornate order) from 1926.

Some pics... phew, that top has been thru the mill (possibly literally) -- check out the second and third photo below. I wonder how repairable it really is and whether there is anyone in the universe who would want it at that price (currently $16,000).

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim, 

Despite the presence of a genuine Embergher label the mandolin above is likely not made by Luigi Embergher or by the luthiers working in his atelier in Arpino. All the characteristics and the craftsmanship of this instrument point to Francesco Olivieri, a luthier who was also working in Rome at the time the Embergher mandolins were the most wanted and celebrated instruments in Italy and abroad.


Best greetings, 

Alex.

----------

brunello97

----------


## Jim Garber

I wondered about this one esp with the violin scroll. I am sure there are other details unlike LE's work. Label was prob inserted. 

Yet another reason this would never sell for that price.

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Jim and Alex.  Even I thought this one was a bit sketchioso.  

Even so, it makes me wonder how does an instrument like this suffer that kind of damage?  Particularly when it is shown along with its case.

I guess if it could happen to King Tut's Mask, it could happen to a _Fauxbergher_. 

Thankfully nobody slathered a bunch of JB Weld onto the neck of the "Oliveri".

We've been watching too many British detective shows on Netflix.  Maybe the LE label got put in _after_ the accident in an attempt to make it more sellable.  The perp only made things worse with the exorbitant price.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I did find another Olivieri mandolin which does bear some resemblance to the current eBay one and less than to any Embergher. You can see it on *Boetzkes' site*.

In case we lose those images over time...

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## brunello97

Jim and Alex,  I have a few Francesco Olivieri mandolins in my files (including the one Jim has posted) and the labels on two of them are from Catania--different label styles but both with the same street address.

Was he also working in Rome as well or just in the "Roman style"?

Mick

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## derbex

Rara Mandola Nicole e Raffaele Calace 1888? http://r.ebay.com/gGsvDw

----------


## brunello97

> Rara Mandola Nicole e Raffaele Calace 1888? http://r.ebay.com/gGsvDw


Muy cool, Derbex, thanks for the link.  Here are some photos for posterity.

I've seen fancier Calace mandolas but this one is rough and ready.  I dig the big pickguard.  Some real damage to the bowl but it looks repairable.  Hard to say about the neck.

Not cheap but maybe a lowball offer might snag it.  Definitely worth getting playable.

Mick

----------


## vic-victor

A 1912 Russian catalogue scan saying "Embergher copy" and the actual mandolin of this type found in Russia.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Jim Garber

> Rara Mandola Nicole e Raffaele Calace 1888? http://r.ebay.com/gGsvDw


That is also a fairly early one (1888) and one with both Nicola and Raffaele -- I guess they were still talking to each other at that point?? I wish they posted a photo of the label.

This label (below) is from an 1893 mandolin.

----------

brunello97

----------


## brunello97

Cool label, Jim.  I like the looks of this mandola.  It has one of my favorite MOP rosette designs.  Looks like a couple petals of la madre are missing, though.

Mick

----------


## derbex

I was unsure about the ribs on this side  and the bridge seems to have shifted head wards...

----------


## Jim Garber

> I was unsure about the ribs on this side  and the bridge seems to have shifted head wards...


I think the ribs would all be fixable but at a price. And it is hard to tell if the bridge is in the proper place or not. I would think this might take a bit of cash to get playable. Prob are other issues with it, maybe neck straightness etc.

----------


## vic-victor

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mandolin-...item339cebffa0

Interesting top design. Lazzaro. Looks mid-20c.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## DavidKOS

> Muy cool, Derbex, thanks for the link.  Here are some photos for posterity.
> 
> I've seen fancier Calace mandolas but this one is rough and ready.  I dig the big pickguard.  Some *real damage to the bowl but it looks repairable.  Hard to say about the neck.*
> 
> Not cheap but maybe a lowball offer might snag it.  Definitely worth getting playable.
> 
> Mick







> I think the ribs would all be fixable but at a price. And it is hard to tell if the bridge is in the proper place or not. I would think this might take a bit of cash to get playable. Prob are other issues with it, maybe neck straightness etc.


I see not just the typically split ribs, but an actual broken rib, and I would think the neck has to be at least worked on to be really stable and playable considering the overall condition.

The bridge is just in the wrong place, I think. You can see a mark where the bridge used to be - if I've looking at the right picture - further toward the break in the top nearer to the tailpiece.

The frets looked worn, maybe playable, but if you are going to all that trouble to fix it I'd refret it now.

----------


## Jim Garber

> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mandolin-...item339cebffa0
> 
> Interesting top design. Lazzaro. Looks mid-20c.


DANGER! Bridge is currently located in the wrong place noting possible need for neck reset. I concur with mid-20th century.

----------


## vic-victor

Yep, and that metal plate at the back of the neck. Not worth buying, but funny top design.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Muy cool, Derbex, thanks for the link.  Here are some photos for posterity.
> 
> I've seen fancier Calace mandolas but this one is rough and ready.  I dig the big pickguard.  Some real damage to the bowl but it looks repairable.  Hard to say about the neck.
> 
> Not cheap but maybe a lowball offer might snag it.  Definitely worth getting playable.
> 
> Mick


It now says "Best offer accepted".  Did somebody here get it?  If I'd seen it earlier, I might have made an offer -- a Calace mandola for less than 750 Euro is a good deal if the bowl damage isn't too severe (difficult to tell from the photos).

[Edit: Looking again, I think Jim and David may be right that there is rather more damage than just the bowl, and repairs may be open-ended.]

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

Sold for €600. I really have to replenish my instrument repair fund! Or quickly learn how to do this myself.

----------


## brunello97

> Sold for 600. I really have to replenish my instrument repair fund! Or quickly learn how to do this myself.


One of my dream trips, Jim, is for you, Eug and me and Victor (or any combination thereof) to go visit Martin. We go up in his attic and record some tunes. We all lug back 2 or 3 great mandolins. When we are done drinking beer.

I've seen a lot of broken bowls, but that side-puncture wound in the Calace mandola is really a CSI oddity.  How does something like that happen?

Mick

BTW, the Porta della _Mandorla_, in Firenze was cleaned and refurbished a few years back.  One of the most lovely doors in the world, I think.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> One of my dream trips, Jim, is for you, Eug and me and Victor (or any combination thereof) to go visit Martin. We go up in his attic and record some tunes. We all lug back 2 or 3 great mandolins. When we are done drinking beer.


Anytime you want -- there's plenty of space and I'll get the beer in!

As long as it's not my mandolins you're lugging back...

Martin
[Seriously, if you're visiting the UK, get in touch and drop by!]

----------


## Jim Garber

Martin... I owe you a few beers or dinner, at least!!

BTW this is amazing or a scam... the pseudo *Embergher No. 7* says it was bid on by 2 bidders for $13,000. Huh???

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## brunello97

> Martin... I owe you a few beers or dinner, at least!!
> 
> BTW this is amazing or a scam... the pseudo *Embergher No. 7* says it was bid on by 2 bidders for $13,000. Huh???


That is muy sketchioso.  Looks like two bids by the same bidder. 13Gs and another safety bid.

The seller seems to have sold a fair number of various instruments over the years.  

Strange turn of events.

Mick

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## vic-victor

Another 5 cents to previous Embergher in question discussion. Found this http://www.larkstreetmusic.com/images/*Embergher.jpg Seems to be another knock off.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## brunello97

A _Giuseppe_ Puglisi bowlback from Bologna on the ebay.

I may be alone in enjoying these multi-bound tops out of Catania.  The action looks a bit sketchioso for me on a bowl.  

Very simple label compared to what we are used to seeing from them.  I am guessing is an early mandolin from Puglisi (or perhaps the work of a son?)  

Mick

----------


## vic-victor

Lovely Puglisi. Giuseppe was making mandolins under his name from 1880 to 1906. After 1906 the family traded as G. Puglisi Reale i Figli.

----------

brunello97

----------


## noyboy

This mandolin recently on ebay at $499 BIN, seller in Germany. I have a very similar mandolin including an almost identical Romulus and Remus panel with the same leaves except slightly more delicate. Different soundhole inlay. Similar metal tailpiece overlay. Same classical guitar style machine heads and inlaid edge banding. Veneer strips on the back extend all the way from the bowl to the headstock/nut. Mine has a label inside reading: Fabbrica Strumenti Musicali a Corda, Giuseppe Garcano, Catania, Via Nuovaluce 6. This suggests that Musumeci is likely the exporter or company selling the mandolin, rather than the luthier.

(refers to a post on p 242)

----------


## Jim Garber

> This mandolin recently on ebay at $499 BIN, seller in Germany. I have a very similar mandolin including an almost identical Romulus and Remus panel with the same leaves except slightly more delicate. Different soundhole inlay. Similar metal tailpiece overlay. Same classical guitar style machine heads and inlaid edge banding. Veneer strips on the back extend all the way from the bowl to the headstock/nut. Mine has a label inside reading: Fabbrica Strumenti Musicali a Corda, Giuseppe Garcano, Catania, Via Nuovaluce 6. This suggests that Musumeci is likely the exporter or company selling the mandolin, rather than the luthier.
> 
> (refers to a post on p 242)


*This post*?




> An interesting bowlback from a Catanese maker I am not familiar with: Francesco (I assume from the stamp) Musumeci.  That is if he _was_ actually the maker.
> 
> Musumeci bowlback
> 
> While not for the purists here, it seems nicely appointed (though I'm not a big fan of R + R imagery in general) though the detailing craft isn't particularly crisp.  It does have a nice body shape with a bit of the nice reverse curve towards the neck. I like the patterning cut in the tailpiece / sleeve guard. A hybrid of design elements that doesn't completely hang together for me.
> 
> Mick

----------


## derbex

ANTIQUE ALUMINIUM BOWL BACK 8 STRING MANDOLIN WITH LABEL http://r.ebay.com/QJ1YiE  - they didn't have carbon fibre back then.  

If it didn't work as a mandolin you could always fry your breakfast in it  :Smile:

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Derbex.... I was just about to link to this mandolin.

We've seen aluminum bowls before from the US (and maybe UK)--but this label: _Joseph Ficarra_ and the Port Said location label are new to me, though I'm pretty sure we've seen the PS labeling come up.  Maybe Haney will see this and weigh in.

Not the fanciest aluminium bowl but I find these fascinating.  I know AL is a super abundant element but the material aluminum remains very un-earthly to me for some reasons.  We work with it a lot but it retains its fascination.

Some photos of the bowlback--with very DeMeglioid top.  

Note the muy cool one-piece zero fret / string spacer that we were recently talking about which was a feature on some Ceccherini mandolins (as well as others....)

Mick

----------


## derbex

Depending on quite how old the mandoline is aluminium might have been quite a high grade material, I don't think production really ramped up until WW1.

I noticed the nut -it does look pretty identical to my Ceccherini. Tailpiece looks more like my deMeglio, which has a two piece brass nut/zero fret.

----------


## Graham McDonald

Maybe of German origin. Paulus in Markneukirchn were offering aluminium bodied mandolins around 1906 with a similar screw attachment of the neck. The only other Port Said music shop label I have seen is one on an old (originally) 12 string flatback I have. It is from G.De Liso in that city.

Alternatively someone had a DeMeglio with a smashed bowl and they found a local metal worker to make an aluminium body?

Cheers

----------


## brunello97

> Maybe of German origin. Paulus in Markneukirchn were offering aluminium bodied mandolins around 1906 with a similar screw attachment of the neck. The only other Port Said music shop label I have seen is one on an old (originally) 12 string flatback I have. It is from G.De Liso in that city.
> 
> Alternatively someone had a DeMeglio with a smashed bowl and they found a local metal worker to make an aluminium body?
> 
> Cheers


And then shipped it to Egypt where it got stoved in again.  :Smile:  

I think I remember that 12 string, Graham...Did you post pictures of it? I will check in my files when I get back home.

Mick

----------


## Graham McDonald

I was actually thinking it might have been done in Egypt as a way of re-using the soundboard and neck, which do look quite deMeglio-like.

Here are a couple of pics of my De Liso, the label at least of which is from Port Said, and another 12 string which has Magazzini Barera, Venezia engraved into the scratchplate between the two putti (is that right?). I suspect they were made is the same part of the world, which I used to assume was Italy, but now leaning towards Saxony.

The de Liso used to have the same head and tuners as the Barera before I truncated it in youthful exuberance 40 years ago. It also had a new fingerboard with guitar frets fitted along the way as well,but that was before I knew how to do such things. The de Liso is an elegant shape though, and very similar to an unlabelled flat backed 12 string, sold at auction in Melbourne (that is here is Australia) a couple of years back which also also has some deMeglio characteristics. 

Cheers

----------

brunello97

----------


## brunello97

Here is an older Washburn that turned up on the ebay with a number of curious details--particularly the head / neck joint and ur-inlaid tuners.  It has some of everything in a bit of a design dog's breakfast but is interesting example to see what design features L+H developed, kept and set aside as their Washburn mandolins evolved.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

That is a #80, second only to the 85. Main difference is the 85 has a fluted bowl and has metal strips inlaid between the ribs while the 80 does not have a fluted bowl and has celluloid between the ribs. I think the 85 also has pearl inlaid around the soundhole vs. celluloid. Prob there are a few other differences as well but it may also depend on the year of manufacture. I love the the waterfowl (heron?) inlay -- I have to remember that for sometime when I actually commission a build. Hmmmm....

----------


## brunello97

> That is a #80, second only to the 85. Main difference is the 85 has a fluted bowl and has metal strips inlaid between the ribs while the 80 does not have a fluted bowl and has celluloid between the ribs. I think the 85 also has pearl inlaid around the soundhole vs. celluloid. Prob there are a few other differences as well but it may also depend on the year of manufacture. I love the the waterfowl (heron?) inlay -- I have to remember that for sometime when I actually commission a build. Hmmmm....


Thanks, Jim.  I like this style scratchplate, too.  It is like an inverted version of the (hinged?) tailpiece cover.

What year were these 80s and 85s produced?  I'm away from home and my copy of Keef's book....  I had an old Washburn years ago with the crossed internal bowl 'bracing'.  I think that was a '96.  L+H gave up that system sometime in the '90s, right?

Mick

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## brunello97

> Thanks, Jim.  I like this style scratchplate, too.  It is like an inverted version of the (hinged?) tailpiece cover.
> 
> What year were these 80s and 85s produced?  I'm away from home and my copy of Keef's book....  I had an old Washburn years ago with the crossed internal bowl 'bracing'.  I think that was a '96.  L+H gave up that system sometime in the '90s, right?
> 
> Mick


Okay, I've answered my own question after having a look at Keef's book.  The Ebay Washburn noted above appears to be an 1892+ model as it features a bound fretboard.

Looks like my own maple / rw Washburn took after the '92 model, not '96 as I misspoke above.

A pity about the top crack on this Model 80.

Mick

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## Bruce Clausen

New ad in Abbotsford BC:

http://abbotsford.craigslist.ca/msg/4935170886.html



Said to be a handmade G. Motaldi (must mean Montaldi), from "c. 1857". Yours for $3000 (ouch!). Odd bridge and dreadful modern machine heads, but I suppose it could be a nice playing instrument. No indication where the owner got that date, but I'd be surprised if it's really from that era.  Anyone here know anything about what the Montaldi shop produced, and when?

----------


## brunello97

> New ad in Abbotsford BC:
> 
> http://abbotsford.craigslist.ca/msg/4935170886.html
> 
> 
> 
> Said to be a handmade G. Motaldi (must mean Montaldi), from "c. 1857". Yours for $3000 (ouch!). Odd bridge and dreadful modern machine heads, but I suppose it could be a nice playing instrument. No indication where the owner got that date, but I'd be surprised if it's really from that era.  Anyone here know anything about what the Montaldi shop produced, and when?


Bruce, I have a few Montaldi mandolins in my files, from both a Giovanni M___ and a Cesare M______ both from Napoli and both represented by Alban Voigt in London.  Some of the Montaldis look like basic Vinaccia-inspired Neapolitan mandolins and a few have some more _distinctive_ appointments.

The tuners and (maybe) the bridge are replaceable if the mandolin is appealing to you.  The neck angle would be the main concern, as it often is with old bowlbacks.

Mick

1850s sounds about 40 years too early.  1890s would be a better guess.  With many of these look-alike MOR Italian mandolins, I'm not entirely convinced they were actually made in the shop whose label appears.  But I have no convincing proof of this one way or the other.

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## Bruce Clausen

Thanks, Mick. I'm not really looking for a mandolin, just curious about old instruments. Close to 1900 is about what I was thinking too. The photo shows the original bridge-dots in the right place, and then a seemingly very bulky modern bridge placed on the wrong side of the verge, probably to correct the action and intonation. Perhaps worked on by a guitar person rather than a mandolin specialist. 

Interesting that Voigt was involved. Do we have any dates for his London operation? And yes, we can't really know what workshop actually did the building, especially when the label is that of a British importer.

That fancy one (your last two photos) sure has a striking look! I've never seen anything quite like it.

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## brunello97

Bruce, I wonder if I might have mis-titled the last one in my recent post and filed under Montaldi by accident.  The label inside, while unreadable at this scale, doesn't look much like the other Montaldis I have.  

I'm not sure if this was an independent design decision or an integrated bit of acoustic engineering.  A number of Calace models also feature a similar type of "D" shaped soundhole.  The overall design of these Calaces and Cristofaros are strikingly asymmetrical and the soundholes might simply reflect that.  I have a Cristofaro bowlback mandolin with an asymmetrical soundhole also oriented to the bass side.  It strikes me that the instrument's tone is equally biased to the low end.  

In any event, it is very different from the classic, symmetrical Vinaccia-n design of the other Montaldis I have on file with a clear photo of the label.  I may very well be in error on this.

Voigt's name shows up on a range of mandolins we have discussed here such as in this thread about Ceccherini mandolins with Voigt on the label.

Most folks feel confident in Umberto Ceccherini being the maker as he has signed many of the labels.  Montaldi might have been a reseller in Italy who dealt with Voigt in London.  Much remains vague to me about many of these Italian labels, but I have a feeling the mysteries will eventually reveal themselves.  

Mick

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## Bruce Clausen

The D-soundholes I'm used to are like this one on my Watanabe.



Sort of a backwards capital D, I guess. It's the shape especially seen on Cristofaros in my experience.  But the one in your photo above has a real space-age look, what with the extra round hole and the weird scratch-plate shape.  Odd, but I kind of like it.

Thanks for the link to the 2004 thread-- that one is new to me.

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## brunello97

Well, here's a zoomed in view of the Montaldi Mothership comped with a clearer label image.  

Hard to really see, but one can make out some similarities however vague.  The label doesn't look like a Puglisi who would be a usual suspect for something this wacky.

Mick

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## noyboy

> *This post*?


Thanks for responding.
Yes, this post from brunello97. Sorry I'm not very adept at posting to threads. I'll try to get some photos of my instrument posted for comparison. It is pretty rough; I suspect it hung on a wall in an Italian restaurant. Has missing inlay. a minor crack, and the action seems high, so probably a bent neck, though the join at the body seems intact. Also has a canted fretboard and nut, taller on the low strings. No crowning.
But, it does have a label !

Incidentally, I don't play mandolin, yet. This just seemed like an interesting instrument. I do play Classical and Electric guitar, and Ukelele, so maybe I can pick up the mandolin a bit easier than otherwise. On my To Do list.

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## Bill Clements

Hey Mick, is this one of yours?  :Wink: 
I found it on display in the lobby of Paesano's Restaurant in Ann Arbor:

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## brunello97

> Hey Mick, is this one of yours? 
> I found it on display in the lobby of Paesano's Restaurant in Ann Arbor:


It's not, Bill, but thanks for checking. I like the farfalla scratchplate. We'll have to try out the restaurant to have a look.  It seems US made but obvious Italian design influence.  Someday someone (and I hope it is you or me) is going to walk into an Italian franchise restaurant and there will be a Vinaccia or Embergher quietly hanging on the wall and the Maître d' will be accommodating.  Maybe it has already happened.  :Wink:

----------

DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> Hey Mick, is this one of yours? 
> I found it on display in the lobby of Paesano's Restaurant in Ann Arbor:


That looks like one I used for a few years, a pretty common design as we know. This one perhaps is best as a decoration at this point.

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## Tavy

Anyone know anything about Hopf bowlbacks?

This octave mandolin bowlback looks like a bargain to me...

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## tkdboyd

> Anyone know anything about Hopf bowlbacks?
> 
> This octave mandolin bowlback looks like a bargain to me...


This one has been torturing me, just can't swing it right now. I wouldn't even haggle, I would pay the "Buy It Now", so it goes...

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## Bob A

Very attractive, the Hopf; tasty maple bowl, low price, seems to be quality workmanship, and finally we have the answer of what the little holes in the table are for: tone refinement!

I'm glad I didn't see it when the auction was active; the only thing that stands between temptation and myself is the hard vacuum in my bank account. And maybe the mounds of mandolins clogging my living space, and the potential spousal wrath.

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## Tavy

Item no longer available?????  Either someone grabbed it (anyone??), or the seller spotted my comments and decided to revise the price  :Frown:

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## brunello97

I have another Hopf 'mandola' in my files.

Mick

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## Martin Veit

Hopf in fact is a very good known Luthier here in Germany.
There are a lot of "vintage" mandolins on the market. 
You can be shure, that someday the next one will step out of the woods.
 :Wink:

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## Martin Jonas

> Hopf in fact is a very good known Luthier here in Germany.


My father's nylon-strung guitar is a Hopf, of about the same age as this mandola, and it was his main instrument throughout my childhood.  I've always liked its tone a lot, although I suspect I wasn't the most discerning audience back then.

Nice mandola -- I might have gone for it at the BIN prince if I had seen it while the auction was active.

As it happens, I currently have a 1980s Musicalia bowlback mandola (octave, I suspect) which I've promised to repair and set up.  It belongs to the mandola player in our group, although it has never been playable since she's had.  Looks a much more modest instrument than the Hopf, though.  Let's see what it sounds like once repaired and strung up.

Martin

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## vic-victor

Can't help posting my new 1899 Giuseppe Vinaccia pics here  :Smile:

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Beanzy

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## Alex Timmerman

That's a wonderful Vinaccia vic-Victor! 
Congrats and thanks for sharing!
Best, Alex.

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## brunello97

> Can't help posting my new 1899 Giuseppe Vinaccia pics here


Beautiful, v-V.  Any chance you might post some more photos?  Particularly the front.  It looks like some very nice detailing and inlay is evident.

Can you tell us more about it as well?

Mick

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## vic-victor

Thanks for the compliments. It is a very nice instrument indeed. Got it from the guy in Moscow, whose grandfather (originally from St. Petersburg) used to play it. The instrument was very well looked after and came with lots of extras like the original case, Fissoma strings sets and old mother of pearl garment buttons, apparently for the repair of a couple of missing MOP bits here and there. They were wrapped in paper bits dating 1957. The strings were loose for storage, which prevented the instrumnent from deformation. Binding is metal (sliver?) and so are parts of scratchplate inlay and lining betwen the bowl ribs. The binding came loose in two spots where the main top brace is due to top shrinkage, I think, and this needs attention, though the intrument is playable as is. I am going to fix the problems first before activly playing the instrument though.

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## brunello97

Beautiful!  Thanks for the extra photos Victor.  I love this version of the butterfly scratchplate.  The sleeve guard / tailpiece cover is lovely also.  Nice background story.

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

> Thanks for the compliments. It is a very nice instrument indeed. Got it from the guy in Moscow, whose grandfather (originally from St. Petersburg) used to play it. The instrument was very well looked after and came with lots of extras like the original case, Fissoma strings sets and old mother of pearl garment buttons, apparently for the repair of a couple of missing MOP bits here and there. They were wrapped in paper bits dating 1957. The strings were loose for storage, which prevented the instrumnent from deformation. Binding is metal (sliver?) and so are parts of scratchplate inlay and lining betwen the bowl ribs. The binding came loose in two spots where the main top brace is due to top shrinkage, I think, and this needs attention, though the intrument is playable as is. I am going to fix the problems first before activly playing the instrument though.


Very nice mandolin, Victor!  I have a Giuseppe Vinaccia as well, but a much more modest model.  One word of warning: when I got mine I also had some loose binding which I expected to be easy to fix but turned out to be a rather extensive repair.  It wasn't actually the binding that was loose, but the binding channel had been cut too deep so that over the years the soundboard cracked along the edge of the binding channel in line with the binding.  Photos of the problem and the repair are at luthier Jon Springall's homepage here.

Now that it's repaired, mine is a very nice instrument despite its lowkey looks.  I'm also glad to see that your fretboard markers follow the same scheme that Jon and I decided on for my replacement fretboard (the fretboard on the instrument when I got it seemed non-original and wasn't playable).

Martin

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## vic-victor

Thanks, Martin. I have figured it out already. That's typical for late 19c instrument. Braces protrude through binding due to wood shrinkage. I had a chat to a luthier and he suggested the same thing. The top is ideally to be opened and braces trimmed and re-glued. Will have to do it in a due course.

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## Tavy

> Very nice mandolin, Victor!  I have a Giuseppe Vinaccia as well, but a much more modest model.  One word of warning: when I got mine I also had some loose binding which I expected to be easy to fix but turned out to be a rather extensive repair.  It wasn't actually the binding that was loose, but the binding channel had been cut too deep so that over the years the soundboard cracked along the edge of the binding channel in line with the binding.  Photos of the problem and the repair are at luthier Jon Springall's homepage here.


It's a common problem - if the binding ledge is cut too deep then eventually the top just drops away from the sides - the way to tell is easy enough - with an inspection mirror inside, check for daylight showing round the edge of the binding.  In bad cases the top looks like a piece of paper that's been perforated in preparartion of a "cut here" instruction!

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## Bruce Clausen

Just noticed this fancy Ermelinda Silvestri on the Corilon site, priced around $8000. I don't think we've seen this builder here in a while. Dave H. shows a much simpler Catania model on his site. Very extravagant description:

http://www.corilon.com/shop/en/item1371_7.html

It's typical of this dealer to say:  "came to us in perfect condition, and we thoroughly restored it, so that it's now ready to play." Kinda makes you wonder what work it needed.

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## vic-victor

Given the low grade spruce used for a top it doesn't look like a fine instrument. More of a showpiece for display purposes, I think. Looks like Ermelinda's instruments were all made in Catania, she had a Rome address for a while, but I am guessing it was just a retail outlet for Catania-made products. And the asking price is totally out of reach with reality.

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## Tavy

> And the asking price is totally out of reach with reality.


+1.

Sure is pretty though  :Smile: 

Shame there's no image of the back - I would expect some finely scalloped ribs, and perhaps a TortoiseShell neck?

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## derbex

Umberto Ceccherini  on ebay http://r.ebay.com/fS9Erw, bridge isn't original. I like mine.

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## vic-victor

Luigi Embergher Artistico No.8 "Sistema Ginislao Paris" from St. Petersburg Museum of Theatre and Music.

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## Scot63

Hi, I recently purchased what I think is a Sicillian late-nineteenth- or early-twentieth-century mandolin (thanks to Mick's identifying skills—no label on this one). Original thread is here: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...wlback-on-ebay

I had a Jim Grainger and the fine folks at Custom Fretted Instruments near Sparta, TN (highly recommend them for turnaround time, low cost, love of interesting instruments) fix it up, so I'm now posting pictures. Work done: fret repair (lots of leveling, but original frets were in good shape), stabilized a seam in the front, reattached two ribs. The top has a little sinkage near the fretboard that Jim tells me is probably not worth messing with (you may be able to detect this in the closeup of the side of the fretboard). As a result the action gets pretty high farther down the fretboard, but definitely playable. It has a really shimmery sound (versus shrill) and that reassurring "pock," "pock," "pock" with every stroke. Have barely had to tune it since I picked it up on Saturday, even with new very light gauge strings. Very happy with resurrection! If anybody has more suggestions about what this might be, I would welcome them!

----------

DavidKOS

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## vic-victor

Your mandolin is likely to be made in Markneukirchen, Germany. Similar ones were marketed by Gebruder Schuster (Schuster Bros).

----------

Scot63

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## Scot63

Hi, Victor, the inlay is certainly distinctive and, in shape, almost exactly the same. Do you know where I might get more information about these mandolins? All I could find was a few quite complimentary sentences on Markneukirchen mandolins on David Hynds's mandolinluthier.com, as well as several examples of repaired "Italian-style" German bowlbacks.

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## vic-victor

Well, Markneukirchen was a major centre in Saxony for music instrument making. Those mandolins were mass-produced in thousands and though were reasonably inexpensive, the quality was good and the sellers often tried to pass them for Italian ones. Here is the cutting from 1908 Russian catalog adverizing them as "Mandolins of the Best Italian Makers". Jim Garber has a scan of later Gebr. Schuster catalog in his vast collectiion.

----------

DavidKOS

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## brunello97

Goldklang might be another possible MNK source--though I honestly don't know if they made their own or marketed other local mandolins.

Victor, I am on board with your 'probably German' estimation.  I originally had steered Scot63 towards Catania because his is certainly not a Neapolitan made mandolin.  

I only have a page or two from Schuster.  Here's thinking Jim will have an exact match.... 

Mick

----------

DavidKOS

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## vic-victor

Yes, it is hard to be 100% certain.  One thing for sure is that Germans copied Italian originals and Catania tried to be ahead by introducing new designs all the time.  I've seen Puglisi the other day that had all the German features, including rosewood-maple-rosewood staves arrangement. So it worked the other way around, too.  I guess the Goldklang and other large dealers were often doing what is called OEM in today's terms, and changed makers as they saw fit, (like we've seen in the 70-80's when many guitar makers switched from Japan to Korea and later to China keping brand the same), as long as it was viable commercially. And i guess there was no law at that time to state the place of origin on the label. Goldklang often had their name put on the top just the way Catania makers often did. Makes me wonder if they sourced all their stuff in Catania, given the connection in the catalogue? Who knows.

A couple of things to check for Scot. Sometimes Catania makers put their "Catania" stamp on the inner side of the top, so good idea to inspect the inside with the mirror and a littlle torch. Also inpect the tailpiece if there are any leads there. Catania-made cheap mandolins had often pretty rough woodwork inside and often Germans made it a bit neater.

----------

DavidKOS

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## Scot63

Thanks, Victor and Mick. Very interesting—I had no idea that the market was so global during this period. Except for the headstock, it looks a lot like the third in the 1908 catalog clipping. I'll definitely check the inner side of the top. Scot

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## vic-victor

Another unlabelled one from German ebay.

----------

Scot63

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## DavidKOS

Interesting leather tailpiece cover. 

Or is that the tailpiece itself?

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## vic-victor

Looks more like a cover. I like it too.

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## Scot63

Victor, no obvious stamp on the inner side of the top; their appears to be some discoloration in the wood, but that's all. This new example is very similar, both in terms of the inlay and the ribs. Thanks!

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## wlud

> A little entertaining humor from <a href="http://cgi.ebay.fr/TRES-BELLE-MANDOLINE-CARLO-FOVERI-LIGLIO-cotes-creuse_W0QQitemZ150168743849QQihZ005QQcateg
> oryZ104485QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">eBay France</a>. Is this a joke label? Or some way to cover a counterfeit mandolin.


Hi, I'm a newbie here, with quite a large collection of old mandolins and (mostly) French fancy marqueted Banjo-Mandolins. 
I unearth this message to tell that I own one of the Carlo Foveri Liglio with this typo, and as far as my searches had led me, they appear to be an early version of the sticker, but no fake or rebrand..
Cheers,
Phil.

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## Bob A

Vinaccia sighted Down Under . . .

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...-Vinaccia-1908

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## fernando.f

I started plucking a mandolin just a few *days* ago when I found a pretty old Neapolitan instrument by Domenico Zanoni for  €150 (some $160), plus new strings -- I chose low tension D'Addario, but I am not sure it was the right choice...

Anyone ever heard about this luthier ?

Ciao and thank you for your reply !

----------


## Hany Hayek

> I started plucking a mandolin just a few *days* ago when I found a pretty old Neapolitan instrument by Domenico Zanoni for  150 (some $160), plus new strings -- I chose low tension D'Addario, but I am not sure it was the right choice...
> 
> Anyone ever heard about this luthier ?
> 
> Ciao and thank you for your reply !


Her is a link to Dave Hynds website with Neapolitan makers:
http://www.mandolinluthier.com/neapo...phabetic-5.htm
You'll find a Domnico Zanoni mandolin.
You need very light strings, most people here use GHS A240, I use Martin M400,
if you are using D'addario, I would suggest J62.
I saw in an other post that you have problems the tuning machines. 
Refer to this site. Everything I learned about bowl backs I learned from Dave Hynds site:
http://www.mandolinluthier.com/Htuner-repair.htm

----------

fernando.f

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## vic-victor

Mandolin made by Adolfo Macchia 1913, Sao Paolo, Brazil

----------

brunello97, 

Jim Garber

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## Jim Garber

Victor: that is a beauty. It it yours? If so, how does it sound?

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## vic-victor

Hi Jim. Not mine. Also thought it is lovely and posted here for posterity. It is currently for sale here

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## brunello97

Am I getting this right?  1430 Brazilian Real comps to about $450 US.  Seems like a reasonable price to me.

Mick

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## vic-victor

Yes, quite reasonable. I'd buy this one, but have too many projects going at the moment. Anyone?

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## vic-victor

An instrument from the classifieds in Russia, heavily absued and pretty plain. But an interesting maker that I haven't seen mentioning of anywhere before. M. Piazza & A. Rizza, Via Torrisi No. 1, Catania. Label in French.

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## brunello97

New to me as well, Victor.  Thanks!

Mick

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## lex-joe

> Yes, quite reasonable. I'd buy this one, but have too many projects going at the moment. Anyone?


Wow wish there was a way to know how this mandolin sounds and play I would be really interested in it.

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## vostoke

does someone know more about this model? is it a low starting price? http://www.lauritz.com/en/auction/lu...1924/i3856231/

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## Jim Garber

> does someone know more about this model? is it a low starting price? http://www.lauritz.com/en/auction/lu...1924/i3856231/


That is a student model A made in 1924. The price is low but it is an auction with 2 days to go. Also, it looks like the top may have some sinkage or warpage and a non-original bridge, so you need to take that into consideration as well as the buyer's premium as well as a hammer fee: "A buyer's premium of 20% and a hammer fee will be added to the stated price."

Google translate says:"Luigi Embergher, mandolin, Roma 1924 
Luigi Embergher, mandolin, Roma 1924. Label the bottom. Wear, rep. by drying ability on the deck and sank under the chair. L. about 57 cm."

I assume that "deck" refers to the top or table. Good luck on it if you bid.

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## Bob A

With the top perhaps preparing to collapse, the estimate of 335 Euros is probably fair It's hard to judge the amount or duration of the sinkage, or whether the fibers of the top have been irretrievably crushed in the process, so even after repairs it might not be up to the standard of the Embergher atelier. The likelihood of effecting repairs in Europe is better than in the US. Still, you're looking at shipping the thing around Europe, then getting it to the US. If it was particularly rare it might be worth the effort, but you'd have to figure on several months' wait before you could actually play it. 

Your mileage may vary, but I myself am too old and close to the hereafter to deal with that sort of action.

(I just recently received a mandolin that I'd bought more than a decade ago, and sent immediately to a luthier for repair work. I'm pleased to have it, but fortunately I had others to play while I waited . . . and waited . . .)

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## Martin Veit

Isn't it funny?  A Bowlback of note, build around 1900 in the U.S.  - here in Germany in an auction on ebay:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/161714700842?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I guess, that it is a fair price too, although it seems, that there is a bad crack in the back.

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## derbex

More Emberghers on ebay.
 Details about  Luigi Embergher Mandoline Roma No.19 von 1910 needs restauration  

and

 Details about  Luigi EMBERGHER MANDOLIN mandolino Italy 1906 

I can afford the 72p for the first one, but it seems to need a lot of work.

----------

brunello97

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## lex-joe

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RAFFAELE-CAL...ht_17362wt_867

any thoughts on this mandolin?

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## vic-victor

> http://www.ebay.com/itm/RAFFAELE-CAL...ht_17362wt_867
> 
> any thoughts on this mandolin?


It is nice. In tradition of nice D-hole Calaces of early XX century, but with the modern touches, like different inlays and string protector. But the point is that mandolin is made in 1958. Should it be made during the lifetime of Raffaele Calace instead, the price would be right, otherwise, I suspect the only place to sell it would be Japan, as they love Calaces there, both old and new  :Smile:

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## lex-joe

Thanks for the info. vic-victor

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## Tavy

Here's a Ceccherini that's just arrived with a number of unusual features:



Extended fretboard floats above the top:



Label has a serial number, which I've not seen before on a Ceccherini, still no date though  :Frown: 



Bridge is a work of art:



Lastly the second soundboard is full length, but pierced with 4 holes about 3/4" in diameter, and placed in a diamond shape - 2 in the middle at either end (near soundhole and tailpiece), and 2 either side about half way along:



I wonder if Ceccherini was active long enough to have been influenced by Gibson/Virzi, or was it maybe the other way around?

----------

brunello97

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Nice one, John.  What work will you be doing on it?

I think the earlier (?) Italian-language labels sometimes have a number and sometimes not.  Martin will know for sure. Here's mine:

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## Tavy

> Nice one, John.  What work will you be doing on it?


Fretwork/fretboard needs a lot of work to make playable, also there's some soundboard distortion near the soundhole that needs straightening out, a loose brace to reglue, and a back split to glue up.  Plus whatever else I spot.  Definitely a heck of a clean too  :Wink:

----------


## enoloG

Some mandolins coming up at Bromptons. Lot 202 look later than 1890 to me, interesting though. 

http://www.bromptons.co/auction/29th...in/page-1.html

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## brunello97

> Some mandolins coming up at Bromptons. Lot 202 look later than 1890 to me, interesting though. 
> 
> http://www.bromptons.co/auction/29th...in/page-1.html


Nice examples!  Interesting to see the Pasquale Vinaccia label on the same Rua Catalana, 53 address. 

Mick

----------


## Scot63

Just wanted to show off my nearly restored unlabeled Markneukirchen(?) bowlback (it was on this thread a while back). It recently got a missing piece of mother of pearl replaced, so now is in as a good shape as it's likely ever to be. I'm really pleased with it!

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Bill Clements

The Ditson Empire arrived today earlier than expected from my eBay seller.  :Smile: 
It's going to need some work but overall it's in decent shape.  Bridge will need some attention, as some notches have broken in the saddle.  The top is slightly caved under the pickguard, and I think the tuner machines need cleaning and oiling-but it does have newer strings so they appear functional. No cracks anywhere.  I can't play right now but will take it into Elderly this week.  Mick, note the placement of the serial number.

----------

DavidKOS

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## brunello97

Bingo.  Thanks, Bill. SN matches location, number of digits and type font. Can't comp the # itself at the moment.

It looks to be in good overall shape, the neck in particular.  Nice score. I hope both you and the mandolin are both mended soon.

Mick

----------

Bill Clements

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

I picked up this piece in amazing condition - no cracks, splits, sinking, straight neck... The label is torn but looks like A. Galiano, then Raphael Ciani on either side of a Mason's calipers -there may be some small writing in pencil under CIANI, then MANDOLINI E CHITARRE Garantite.  I thought it was Italian, since the label is written in Italian but Mick put me on to researching Raphael Ciani who was the Great-uncle of John D'Angelico - John was his apprentice at the A. Galiano factory.  here is a link to a mandolin with the same label as mine that is accredited to John D'Angelico making it for Raphael... http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/PluckedStrin...olin13563.html

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## DavidKOS

> I picked up this piece in amazing condition - no cracks, splits, sinking, straight neck...


Nice looking find there, and in good condition! Enjoy playing it.

----------


## Tavy

That looks to be a great find - interesting piece of history too!

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## Jim Garber

> I picked up this piece in amazing condition - no cracks, splits, sinking, straight neck... The label is torn but looks like A. Galiano, then Raphael Ciani on either side of a Mason's calipers -there may be some small writing in pencil under CIANI, then MANDOLINI E CHITARRE Garantite.  I thought it was Italian, since the label is written in Italian but Mick put me on to researching Raphael Ciani who was the Great-uncle of John D'Angelico - John was his apprentice at the A. Galiano factory.  here is a link to a mandolin with the same label as mine that is accredited to John D'Angelico making it for Raphael... http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/PluckedStrin...olin13563.html


All respects to The National Museum, I am not 100% sure that their mandolin was made by John D'Angelico. One thing they note is the headstock inlay. I have a Ricca bowl back with that same inlay and have seen guitars by other makers with it as well. I believe this was just an inlay purchased by a pearl supplier. JD was a teen (I believe) when he worked for his uncle. I also think Ciani had talents to produce quality work. I have seen a few bowlbacjs with JD labels one in the Met show. Sort of like the Larson attribution...

OTOH, Eddie, yours is a pretty high end one and Ciani is a respected builder as well. Most likely he had a hand in making that one -- not so sure about JD. Enjoy it anyway.

----------

DavidKOS, 

Eddie Sheehy

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## brunello97

Let's bear in mind that John D'Angelico was born in 1905 and began 'apprenticing' with Zio Raphael in 1914, _when he was nine years old._

Attributions of mandolin provenance projected onto a little kid should be done carefully.  :Wink: 

Jim is right.  RC was no slouch at all. I would estimate Eddie's mandolin to have come from the early '00s when Ciani was probably under the influence of Angelo Manello more than his bambino nipote.

Mick

----------

DavidKOS, 

Eddie Sheehy

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## Eddie Sheehy

Here's a couple of vid clips to show the mandolin:

Vivaldi's Concerto in D Maj - Largo - and an excerpt from Vivaldi's Concerto for Two Mandolins...

----------

Scot63

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## Scot63

Sounds like it has a nice, consistent tone. Great find!

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## Graham McDonald

One thing to remember is that the A. Galiano brand was likely own by Oscar Schmidt. Some of the Galiano labeled instruments might well have been made in the OS factory, perhaps the cheaper ones, while others, which added the Ciani name to the label, such as Eddie's were made in Ciani's shop. Ciani does not seem to have had his own label at any time, but is a fascinating link to Luigi Ricca's workshop in the 1890s and the later work of a whole bunch of Italian American guitar and mandolin builders in New york for decades after, of who D'Angelico was the best known. Ciani and D'angelico both worked and lived on Kenmare St in lower Manhattan and sadly there is no trace of either of them left there as far as I could see. I dragged a mildly protesting spouse along the length of the street a couple of months back. I don't think any of the building that either occupied in still in existence.

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## brunello97

Thanks, Graham, for that. That's what I know about the Galiano label.  Somewhere I recall a reference someone was making to "The Italians" working in the OS shop--a reference to RC and his crew, as if Ciani and his crew had a sub-studio within the bigger operation in Jersey.  This assumedly before he set up his own operation in NYC.  Need to track that citation down. 

Some of the Galiano labels I have seen make no reference to Ciani.  Others have the initials RC.  Still others have his full name spelled out.

I keep thinking that Jim and Mike E must have a load of time on their hands and they could put together this awesome history of Ricca, Schmidt, Weymann, Ciani, Manello, etc.   :Wink:   The Jersey Boys.

_But it's just my imagination, running away with me._

Mick

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## Graham McDonald

I would think there were lots of Italians working in the Schmidt factory in NJ, but there were another group who might well have come through the Ricca factory in the 1890s (and who used that as  promotion for themselves later) who might have also worked in Ciani's shop later and when D'Angelico closed that down to work on his own also kept building around NY. People like A Russo and Antonio Grauso claimed a Ricca connection and Grauso also worked for Ciani, along with Anonio Cerrito and Joseph Nettuno who were both around into the 1930s. Articles in _The Cadenza_ suggest that Manello's shop was mostly staffed by relatives, or at least people from his home village. His shop made a lot of instrument for Charles Bruno as well as with his own label.

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## brunello97

> I would think there were lots of Italians working in the Schmidt factory in NJ, but there were another group who might well have come through the Ricca factory in the 1890s (and who used that as  promotion for themselves later) who might have also worked in Ciani's shop later and when D'Angelico closed that down to work on his own also kept building around NY. People like A Russo and Antonio Grauso claimed a Ricca connection and Grauso also worked for Ciani, along with Anonio Cerrito and Joseph Nettuno who were both around into the 1930s. Articles in _The Cadenza_ suggest that Manello's shop was mostly staffed by relatives, or at least people from his home village. His shop made a lot of instrument for Charles Bruno as well as with his own label.


I think you are right, Graham, but we just want to keep in mind the time span here.  We're talking about a range of time from probably around 1895 to the mid 20s.  That's an eternity in the early halcyon years of the mandolin in America. 

"The Italians" I was referring to in my uncited quote weren't just a group of Italian guys working in on the shop floor as you indicate, but clearly a noteworthy collection of luthiers / craftsmen unto themselves. Ciani was il capo of them for at least a short while.  No doubt there was as much nepotism and cross fertilization in the shops on the East Coast as there was in Boston or Chicago or Napoli.  That these guys might have come through Ricca to Ciani to Schmidt to wherever (or back and forth) would seem only natural.  I'm sure Manello was open to whoever could walk the walk no matter what a Credenza writer at the time might have devined while interviewing Italians or Italian Americans in those days.  The mandolin / instrument making world in the US changed dramatically between 1905 and 1915 and 1925 and 1935 as you know probably better than I.  Linking names and associations to specific time frames is much more useful than broader brush connections, eg. Ciani / D'Angelico in 1902....... :Wink: 

Yeah, the link between Bruno and Manello and Ciani and the NJ "Itallians" and probably Schmidt and Weymann is a book in and of itself.  One look at the mandolins makes all that pretty clear.

Mandolin Start Ups.  Now there's an interesting historical concept.

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DavidKOS

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## tkdboyd

Oh how I covet this on one ebay

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## Jim Garber

> Oh how I covet this on one ebay


Not too bad a deal at $998 BIN if they will ship from Germany. I imagine the price is lower since it has at one set of non-original tuners, missing tailpiece cover and non-original/non-repro bridge. Could be a deal for someone depending on whether the restoration was done well. Some issue of replaced veneer on headstock. Interesting that the "Emberger" stamp is not straight.

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## JeffD

> Interesting that the "Emberger" stamp is not straight.


What might that indicate?

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## Eddie Sheehy

It's crooked?  :Smile:

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## Jim Garber

> What might that indicate?


Too much chianti that day.

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## brunello97

> Too much chianti that day.


Somebody in the shop got their culo kicked that day from Luigi.  At least I hope so.  :Wink: 

I'm a maple bowl lover, but Jim, your RW Embergher is a real prize......

Mick

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## brunello97

Here's a bowlback decked out for a Second Line.  Ad says from a 'New Orleans Maker' but wisely suggests that it may be a NOLA 'decorator'.  Rather modest given the context.

Hard for me to read anything on the label from the image provided.

Mick

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> Ad says from a 'New Orleans Maker' but wisely suggests that it may be a NOLA 'decorator'.


That label looks like something else has been pasted over an oval label - and both are hard if not impossible to read.

I am not sure who made mandolins in New Orleans , but there was a very large Sicilian immigration directly to New Orleans, and I'm certain one of my ancestors' countrymen could make a mandolin.

Werlein's and other companies existed since the 1840's and may well have sold mandolins that were made in other cities. It's possible they sold some made locally but I have heard of any.

http://www.myneworleans.com/New-Orle...os-FOR-A-SONG/

Any further info would be appreciated.

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## brunello97

The inside of the bowl looks like it has been papered, though it is hard to tell from the photo. While I have no doubt this was made in the States that wasn't typical practice here and suggests an Italian influence, if not hand.  

Headstock and certain details are similar to those from Chicago.  Could have been a custom job for someone in LA given the dedicated engraving on the tuner cover plate.  Pretty clumsy bling in some regards, but I appreciate the exuberance.  '90s era Chicago bowlback bling can be pretty stultifying to my eye.

I'll send the seller a note and see if they can send or post some better photos of the label.

Mick

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> Could have been a custom job for someone in LA given the dedicated engraving on the tuner cover plate.  Pretty clumsy bling in some regards, but I appreciate the exuberance.  '90s era Chicago bowlback bling can be pretty stultifying to my eye.


That may have been one of the Malmquist family, Marie - I've seen old concert programs from New Orleans that included them and if I recall at least one played mandolin.

" since Malmquist, Emile, b. Aug. 10. 1857, in Stockholm
teacher , choirmaster of Grace Church, New Orleans;"

http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbo...1000031729/715

"CONSERVATORY OK MUSIC. Prof. Halmqolit'f Pupils Give - m Pleasing; Entertainment. The twelfth concert of the New Orleans Conservatory of Music was given at Werleih Hall, on Canal street, last night, and was well attended. The following programme was given: "Lustsplel," Keler Bela, violins Misses F. Glover, L. Levy, D. Anderson, Masters J. Glover, Wilson, C. Himel KIrst, pianos Mrs. Ernst, Misses R. Otis, R. Otis, M. Davis; "Cav-atina," Raff, Prof. Porte; tenor solo, selected, Mr. J. L. Junod; string quartette, Tschaikowskl, Profs. Porte. Sim-no Bremer and Malmquist; "Liberty Bell," Sousa. mandolins Misses M. Davis, D. Anderson, K. Elizardl, Messrs. O. Malmquist. H. Arbo, i. Malmquist, guitar A. Arbo, piano Miss L. Levy; -Berceuse" (lullaby), Chopin, Prof. Malmquist; "Proposal'' (string quartette), Uaff, Profs. Porte, Simno. Bremer and Malmquist; soprano solo, selected, Mrs. Marie Malmquist; mandolin and guitar duet, by Messrs. H. and A. Arbo;"

http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/28277900/

The name was misread but it's the Malmquists.

Note Marie is on the program as a singer. I'm pretty sure it's her mandolin though.

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brunello97

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## brunello97

> That may have been one of the Malmquist family, Marie - I've seen old concert programs from New Orleans that included them and if I recall at least one played mandolin....... I'm pretty sure it's her mandolin though.


Amazing.

Very impressive legwork there, Séamus!

Mick

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DavidKOS

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## vic-victor

Calace knock off by Puglisi, from Moscow classifieds website.

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## Jim Garber

> Calace knock off by Puglisi, from Moscow classifieds website.


The bridge looks to be positioned incorrectly. Perhaps an indication of high action.

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## tkdboyd

Someone down under needs to purchase this '29 Calace

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## vic-victor

I am selling this one. It is also in the Cafe classifieds  :Smile:

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## Eddie Sheehy

Maybe a bowlback revival coming...

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DavidKOS

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## Scot63

Hi, just wanted to show off my newly repaired Götz mandola from Markneukirchen, 1920s sometime. A top crack and significant back crack were expertly repaired by the fine folks at Custom Fretted Instruments in Sparta, Tennessee. This instrument sounds fantastic with tons of overtones, particularly in the bass end and high up. Will record something soon. It's seen with a partner, my unknown (but Markneukirchen, likely earlier) mandolin. A nice pair indeed!

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DavidKOS

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## vic-victor

An interesting DeMeglio clone with fluted ribs from ebay UK, a certain Luigi Ruocco, Napoli

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brunello97

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## LadysSolo

I did it! Bought my first mandolin ever, a bowlback (because I want to play classical music). I purchased an American Conservatory bowlback, supposedly 1900, picture of the label inside says "made for Vohn Bros, Harrisburg (I think, a little blurred), PA." I am now going to get some light strings to replace the strings it is coming with. Pictures looked good, no cracks visible, tail piece intact. I know I still need to learn to play, and I am also aware there may be issues with it, but I am excited!

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DavidKOS

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## brunello97

Congratulations and welcome to the Loyal Order of the Bowl.  We would love to see some pictures of your mandolin--and the label, too...  

As you probably know, the American Conservatory mandolins were a second-tier line from Lyon and Healy in Chicago which in many examples are actually as nice (or nicer) than their first-line Washburn mandolins.  Good quality AC mandolins can be some of the best mandolin values in $$/quality out on the used instrument market. 

Those of us familiar with old bowlbacks might strongly recommend _extra_ light strings (.09-.32)--from GHS or Calace, for instance--to be extra careful given the age and different construction of these mandolins.

Welcome to the Mandolin Cafe.

Mick

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## LadysSolo

Okay, thanks! I didn't order the strings yet, so I will get extra-light. I will try to post pictures when it arrives.

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## Jim Garber

GHS A240 are the starting point. AFAIK they are mostly available from juststrings.com. I am unaware of anyone else carrying them. 

An upgrade from those for round wound sound are the Dogal Calace Dolce strings available from Bernunzio.com.

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## brunello97

> GHS A240 are the starting point. AFAIK they are mostly available from juststrings.com. I am unaware of anyone else carrying them.


Big City Strings carries the GHS A240s.  IIRC, BCS prices are a bit higher, but their shipping charges are a bit less. Sometimes I'll order from one place or the other.   I have grown very fond of the Calace strings though and wind up shelling out the (considerable) more do-re-mi.

Last night I put a set of GHS A240s on a MOR Washburn bowl I had lying around waiting some long-unattended-to set up work that I finally attended to.  They do sound just fine.

Mick

Mick

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## Namder

> An interesting DeMeglio clone with fluted ribs from ebay UK, a certain Luigi Ruocco, Napoli


Can you post a link as this isn't showing on my computer.

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DavidKOS

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## vic-victor

I can't find it either. Could have been sold or taken off sale.

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## Tavy

> I can't find it either. Could have been sold or taken off sale.


Here we go, sold a while back.

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## LadysSolo

Okay, my American Conservatory mandolin arrived yesterday, I took pictures and will try to upload later when I have more time. It is out of tune (as expected,) but I have a few questions. I tried to strum it a bit just to hear what the tone is like - pretty good, even out of tune, but the strings in the pairs do not feel like they are the same gauge - shouldn't they be the same gauge in each pair, since they are tuned to the same note? I expected to change strings, and my very light strings are here (thank you Just Strings - very prompt shipping) so I can change them. Also, does MAS (mandolin acquisition syndrome) ever go away? I am so taken with this one that I want to get more! It is a very comfortable instrument to try to play......

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## Jim Garber

Who knows what strings are on your AC mandolin, LadySolo. Change them as soon as possible. When you do so make sure that the bridge is located in the proper place. I don't know if you play other fretted instruments but if you need some guidance on how to restring there is a good step-by-step instructions on *frets.com*. Also, make sure that your bridge is in the correct location. *This pdf* might help.

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## LadysSolo

Thank you for the frets.com link. I can guarantee I would have bent my loops wrong and had what they term an "unpleasant surprise" when I tightened my strings. LOL!! Immediate education! I also play guitar and violin, thanks! I looked where bridges are supposed to be on bowl backs, and it is in the approximately correct place, and I can fine-tune it. Carolyn

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## LadysSolo

Okay, I spent the last hour following the instructions of how to attach a jpg file to upload my pictures of my mandolin without success (got the instructions from the FAQ area, because the way I know how to attach pictures failed also.) Will try again later when I have my patience back.

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## brunello97

LadysSolo, I have tried to put together Step by Step Instruction (from Screen Captures) that will walk you through the process of uploading an image.  These are from my Mac, but I'm sure the steps will look just the same on a PC.  Ten Step Method.

Here are Steps 1-5.

Mick

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## brunello97

Here are Steps 6-10.

Have fun.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Alternate simple version. Click on icon above: square picture of tree which is next to the film icon. Window will open where you have choice of uploading image from your computer or from a web site.

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## LadysSolo

It keeps telling me "upload failed." My jpg must be too large, I will try to resize to be able to upload.   Thanks, I was doing it right after all. It must be the pictures.

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## HonketyHank

Well, I joined the club. I bought a 1911 Vega bowlback and it arrived yesterday. I have had a lot of fun with it so far.

My first observations:

Only thing missing is the tailpiece cover. No cracks or bad gouges or scratches. One tuner has a lot of play in it and there is a slight rattle in the headstock which I suspect may turn out to be the screw for that tuner post gear. Will investigate when I get around to it. Came with brand new GHS ultra light strings; a nice surprise.

I was absolutely blown away by the resonance coming from a sweetspot strike of the G string. Wow. The frets are very narrow and low by modern standards but no real problem. The ultra light strings make it easy to 'bend' notes, which in my case is not a good thing.

The bridge is sitting very slightly over the hump where the soundboard goes from parallel to the neck to sloping toward the tailpiece. I understand that could be a problem. But when I checked the intonation as received, it was pretty good. Only one buzzy fret on only one string and that is like 12th or 13th on the E string. Not terribly relevant for me yet ...  I will play around with the bridge placement next time I restring it (and will open the tuner 'box' at that time as well to check on that loose screw). May also replace the tailpiece with something having a cover to minimize shirt snags, too.

All in all, a very well made, well preserved, sweet sounding instrument. I will try to upload some photos from the ebay listing.

ps: I do NOT plan to take it to the bluegrass jam I attend from time to time. :Smile:

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## brunello97

> Well, I joined the club. I bought a 1911 Vega bowlback and it arrived yesterday. I have had a lot of fun with it so far.
> 
> My first observations:
> 
> Only thing missing is the tailpiece cover. No cracks or bad gouges or scratches. One tuner has a lot of play in it and there is a slight rattle in the headstock which I suspect may turn out to be the screw for that tuner post gear. Will investigate when I get around to it. Came with brand new GHS ultra light strings; a nice surprise.
> 
> I was absolutely blown away by the resonance coming from a sweetspot strike of the G string. Wow. The frets are very narrow and low by modern standards but no real problem. The ultra light strings make it easy to 'bend' notes, which in my case is not a good thing.
> 
> The bridge is sitting very slightly over the hump where the soundboard goes from parallel to the neck to sloping toward the tailpiece. I understand that could be a problem. But when I checked the intonation as received, it was pretty good. Only one buzzy fret on only one string and that is like 12th or 13th on the E string. Not terribly relevant for me yet ...  I will play around with the bridge placement next time I restring it (and will open the tuner 'box' at that time as well to check on that loose screw). May also replace the tailpiece with something having a cover to minimize shirt snags, too.
> ...


Nice score, Hank.  Welcome to the Brotherhood of the Bowl. You've made a good choice, in my opinion.  I feel like the Vega bowlbacks are some of the most resonant of the US made bowls--at least those made in production quantities.  They tend to be slightly lighter build than bowls coming out of Chicago or the NY/NY/PA axis (Martin bowls are a different story...)  Not as light and resonant as the Italian bowls of the era but perhaps more well crafted and with better precision in the fret layout and intonation compared to similarly priced Italian models -- but for the better quality Neapolitan or Roman makers.

Funny thing, I just got done with a playing session with a Ditson labeled-Vega made bowl which is probably identical to yours but for minor details.  

Make note: on these Vega mandolins the correct bridge position is indeed just 'south' of the top cant / fold you describe.  The only maker I know where that was a consistent design detail, but there you go.

I wouldn't recommend changing the tailpiece, just changing your shirt.  :Wink:   Keep an eye out for a Waverly Cloud tailpiece set or just the cover on Ebay and you can find a replacement.  They are not necessarily cheap (~$50) but worth it.  

By all means take this to your bluegrass jam.  It's a mandolin isn't it?

Mick

----------

DavidKOS

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## HonketyHank

Thanks for the welcome and thanks for the tip re bridge placement.

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## vic-victor

Looks like a nice and clean instrument. Congrats.

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## brunello97

Well, here's a Ditson / Vega Empire now on the ebay.

It appears in pretty good, playable shape.  $450 isn't cheap. I got mine for a third of that when they were _way_ below the radar. But the word may be out and those days may be over....

In my view that is a pretty good price for a very well made, stable, resonant bowlback on the US market.

That kind of dinero will get you a mid grade mid level Chinese import A style archtop.  This is certainly a better mandolin in terms of the quality of materials, craftspersonship, etc. 

I've played a lot of mandolins and a lot of bowlbacks.  These Empires are good mandolins.  If you've been _Ashley Madisoning_ mandolins, this might be an affair for you.

Mick

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## brunello97

Ceccherini fans take note.  Another of the Nightingale double soundboard mandolins has shown up on the ebay.

This earlier (brief) conversation flew under my radar but not that of Allen the Eagle Eyed.  :Wink: 

A patent date of 1893 would put these pretty close to the early years of Umberto C., correct?  I'm not implying or inferring anything by this but it is a very curious mandolin. I wouldn't have guessed this was that old by the looks of it--at a minimum five or so years newer.  But for the double top and shades-of-Puglisi horseshoe scratchplate this looks a pretty standard Chicago fare.  

Nightingale was apparently from Indiana.  Working / experimenting out of the early Regal shop?  Did he see a Ceccherini and test it out for himself?  

How did I miss these?

Mick

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## vic-victor

Thanks, Mick. An interesting instrument, indeed.

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## LadysSolo

So I am wondering if I am an official bowlback addict? I liked the first one so much (American Conservatory) that I have added a Lyon and Healy, a Vega, a Puglisi, and a Angelo Corsini. They are all lovely, and all sound a little different. I cannot find out anything about the Corsini (I have been able to locate discussions about all the others in this thread.) Can anyone tell me anything about Angelo Corsini and his instruments?  Thank you.

----------

DavidKOS

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## Jim Garber

> I cannot find out anything about the Corsini (I have been able to locate discussions about all the others in this thread.) Can anyone tell me anything about Angelo Corsini and his instruments?  Thank you.


Can you post some pics of your instrument? It is possible Corsini was a store that had other shops build its mandolins and put its own label in it -- a very common practice both in Europe and in North America.

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## brunello97

Angelo Corsini had an address on Via Chiaia.  Whether he made things there or sold others' work is unknown to me.  This example looks very much under the influence of I Vinaccia, who had their various shops qui vicino.  Calace even had a shop on the same street for awhile.

Mick

----------

DavidKOS

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## LadysSolo

It was on ebay last week. I don't know how to link to it but it was number 291586875973 (the auction item #). It looks a lot like the one you have pictured, Mick. Thanks!

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## Jim Garber

Those photos are of your mandolin. Those are from your eBay auction: 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291586875973

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## LadysSolo

LOL!! Then that's why it looks a lot like it! It is in very good condition for the age. It was just a little dirty, and cleaned up nicely. Plays very easily too. I was nervous with it coming from the UK, but it made it fine. Reading other threads where others on this thread had gotten bowlbacks from overseas safely made me feel better about trying it.

----------


## Bill Clements

Ditson Update!
I got my 1905 Ditson Empire back from Elderly yesterday after a second round of restoration.
I decided to go for broke and get this mandolin completely playable.  Initially, after purchasing the mandolin from eBay in June, I had Elderly restore the bridge and tuner machines.  This last time around in the shop I asked Arnold Hennig to reset the neck, do a French polish on the top and peghead, level the frets, and lower the action even more.  Now it's a joy to play!
Thanks again to Mick for his help in recommending this mandolin.

----------

Jim Garber

----------


## Beanzy

That's so great to see another good instrument revived and brought back to the land of living instruments.
Good for at least another ton of years before the next fettling.
Bravo to you.

----------

Bill Clements

----------


## brunello97

Fair play to you, Bill. The mandolin looks amazing.  I am so glad that you decided to keep it and get it properly playable.  Kudos to Arnold, I have just the mandolin to bring him.  :Smile:   I mean, it looks brand new, as Beanzy says.  Just gorgeous.

The Ditson Empires are great mandolins--very responsive. I still tend to think they are Vega made.  Glad you are happy with yours.  I had mine out just the other night.

Wahoo.

Mick

----------

Bill Clements

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## Scot63

Gosh, that is really beautiful. Congratulations! Would love to hear a sound clip.

----------

Bill Clements

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## Tavy

Just snagged this fancy Ceccherini on behalf of another cafe member (you know who you are!  :Wink: ).  It's absolutely filthy, but I have high hopes for this one:

----------

derbex, 

Jim Garber, 

vic-victor

----------


## derbex

This alleged Calace is quite close to me, there's no label though and I haven't seen another Calace like it.

----------

DavidKOS

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Derbex,

It is a German made mandolin; not a Calace. 


Best greetings, 

Alex.

----------

DavidKOS, 

derbex

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## DavidKOS

And do I see that the last bit of the extended fingerboard has been scooped?

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi DavidKOS, Yes indeed, it is scooped, but that is original and intended like that by the maker.

----------

DavidKOS

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## Namder

When I saw this on Ebay, I said to a friend that I bet this will end up with Tavy.

----------


## brunello97

> Just snagged this fancy Ceccherini …..It's absolutely filthy, but I have high hopes for this one:


Indeed it is, John.  :Wink: 

Two people separated by a common language. Filthy.

BTW, I love British slang, too.  I just don't know enough of it.

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Just snagged this fancy Ceccherini on behalf of another cafe member (you know who you are! ).  It's absolutely filthy, but I have high hopes for this one:


Congratulations!  I was watching this one and thinking of putting in a bid, but I was put off by the condition and slightly dubious as to how the fancier level of decoration looked -- it seemed overdone in the auction photos.  Your photos look a whole lot more appealing than those in the auction, but at least it meant we weren't outbidding each other.

Martin

----------


## Tavy

> Indeed it is, John. 
> 
> Two people separated by a common language. Filthy.


Well it's in Webster's as a synonym for dirty which is how I would use it, I'm much too rural to use Urban slang  :Smile: 




> Congratulations! I was watching this one and thinking of putting in a bid, but I was put off by the condition and slightly dubious as to how the fancier level of decoration looked -- it seemed overdone in the auction photos. Your photos look a whole lot more appealing than those in the auction, but at least it meant we weren't outbidding each other.


Glad we weren't bidding against each other - you're right it all looked not so good in the eBay photos - mostly on account of the dirt.  Now that it's cleaned up and the missing MOP is getting replaced it's starting to look seriously bling.

----------

brunello97

----------


## brunello97

> Congratulations!  I was watching this one and thinking of putting in a bid, but I was put off by the condition and slightly dubious as to how the fancier level of decoration looked -- it seemed overdone in the auction photos.  Your photos look a whole lot more appealing than those in the auction, but at least it meant we weren't outbidding each other.
> 
> Martin


I think it looks pretty handsome….though I can't tell the degree of dirt John was referring to.  Glad it seems worth the time to get straight. 

All a matter of opinion and taste, but I do quite like the basic design bones of the the Ceccherini / DeMeglio design framework though have felt the Ceccherini attempts at bling have been much more successful than with DeMeglio.  Similar with Martin (and Embergher) bowls, which for me have such elegant profiles which I appreciate more in their unornamented versions.

Please keep us filled in on the repair / restoration process, John…..

Mick

----------


## vic-victor

Just found a Russian listing of a completely ruined instrument that looks a lot like Ceccherini, but with a different label. I haven't seen any Ceccherinis in Russia yet. Interesting.

----------


## Tavy

> Just found a Russian listing of a completely ruined instrument that looks a lot like Ceccherini, but with a different label. I haven't seen any Ceccherinis in Russia yet. Interesting.


I think I may pass on that one....

----------


## Tavy

Duplicate.

----------


## vic-victor

:Laughing:   Yep, not worth purchasing, for sure. But I am curious if someone have seen the label like that? Does not look llike a Ceccherini label, though the instrument itself does.

----------


## brunello97

> Yep, not worth purchasing, for sure. But I am curious if someone have seen the label like that? Does not look llike a Ceccherini label, though the instrument itself does.


It does have a "double top" though, John.  Maybe a triple or quadruple.

Victor--I've seen that label "Estudiantina" on a few mandolins of distinctly different styles.  While the label says "Napoli-Milano" the stamp on one of the mandolins says "Catania".  My guess is that they were a distributor -- could well have had a Ceccherini to relabel as well.  Here are a couple examples.

Mick

----------


## vic-victor

Thanks Mick. That's it, same label, Estudiantina. Another question, somewhat related, have any other makers used the tension hooks behind the bridge or it is mainly Ceccherini feature?

----------


## Tavy

> Thanks Mick. That's it, same label, Estudiantina. Another question, somewhat related, have any other makers used the tension hooks behind the bridge or it is mainly Ceccherini feature?


I hadn't come across any until recently when this Kisslinger came up:



Doesn't look good enough to be a Ceccherini to me though.

----------

brunello97

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I hadn't come across any until recently when this Kisslinger came up:
> 
> Doesn't look good enough to be a Ceccherini to me though.


Kisslinger is also the name that occurred to me -- I'm fairly sure I've seen several Ceccherini-like Kisslingers before, although he also has other designs.  I've never seen one in person, but they tend to go for quite a lot of money, which makes the selling price of that Japanese one surprising.  However, only actual Ceccherinis have the double top.  He had a patent on that design.

I suspect the trashed one in Russia is a Kisslinger, as I have a recollection of seeing these metal bridges on a similar Kisslinger before and as there doesn't seem to be a double top visible through the wreckage.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

> I suspect the trashed one in Russia is a Kisslinger, as I have a recollection of seeing these metal bridges on a similar Kisslinger before and as there doesn't seem to be a double top visible through the wreckage.
> 
> Martin


The mandolin Victor posted appears to have the same screw down bridge as this Kisslinger that I have in my files--along with the tension clips.

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

> The mandolin Victor posted appears to have the same screw down bridge as this Kisslinger that I have in my files--along with the tension clips.
> 
> Mick


Yes, indeed -- that's what I remembered.  Same fretboard extension, too.

Martin

----------


## vic-victor

Great. The Russian one looks very much like the Kisslinger posted by Mick. Kudos to John Mick and Martin! Thanks!

----------


## Tavy

Time for an update on the Ceccherini, I'm really pretty pleased with this one, it cleaned up well, and with the missing MOP replaced and the broken tortoiseshell patched up, it looks amazing (sounds pretty good too):

----------

Bill Clements, 

DavidKOS, 

derbex, 

Jim Garber, 

Martin Jonas, 

vic-victor

----------


## brunello97

Beautiful work, John, as always.  That's a jewel.

I'm guessing the repositioning of the bass side of the bridge is to get the intonation where you want it to be.  That's a fairly big adjustment, though, from the original position of the "tan line" is any indication. 

What do you make of it? Do you think the instrument was always that off? Or a combination of things: strings, subtle bowl / neck changes over 100+ years?

Mick

----------

Jim Garber

----------


## Tavy

> Beautiful work, John, as always.  That's a jewel.
> 
> I'm guessing the repositioning of the bass side of the bridge is to get the intonation where you want it to be.  That's a fairly big adjustment, though, from the original position of the "tan line" is any indication. 
> 
> What do you make of it? Do you think the instrument was always that off? Or a combination of things: strings, subtle bowl / neck changes over 100+ years?


It's a good question - the markers are placed approximately at the "theoretical" position - so if you placed the bridge there I wonder if it ever really played in tune?  It's also been discussed before that the nuts on these are _always_ shaped so as to make the first fret too long (and so all fretted notes sharp): you either have to radically reshape the metal nut or just replace it with as new bone one to get things in tune.  Another strange fact is that this one has a 335mm scale length rather than the more usual 330mm: that might suggest the fretboard is a later replacement, however, I see no signs of it having been replaced.

----------


## vic-victor

Beautiful Ceccherini. A sound slip would be appreciated. Thanks!

----------


## Tavy

> Beautiful Ceccherini. A sound slip would be appreciated. Thanks!


Unfortunately it will have to remain sound-less:

* I need to pack it up and get it off to it's owner, but more to the point...
* I'm currently having some elbow issues which means I haven't played properly in the last 8 weeks - when I do finally get the green light I'm going to be _so_ bad it'll be painful on the ears - I can tell that already from the small amount of "plinking" I've done while setting up instruments!

----------

DavidKOS, 

vic-victor

----------


## Tavy

> Unfortunately it will have to remain sound-less:
> 
> * I need to pack it up and get it off to it's owner, but more to the point...
> * I'm currently having some elbow issues which means I haven't played properly in the last 8 weeks - when I do finally get the green light I'm going to be _so_ bad it'll be painful on the ears - I can tell that already from the small amount of "plinking" I've done while setting up instruments!


I relented, hopefully 5 minutes playing won't hurt too much:

----------

brunello97, 

vic-victor

----------


## vic-victor

Thanks, John! Great bass and sustain, clear trebles. Really good instrument.  Forgot to ask if there is a double top? Doesn't look like, but better to double check.

----------


## Tavy

> Thanks, John! Great bass and sustain, clear trebles. Really good instrument.  Forgot to ask if there is a double top? Doesn't look like, but better to double check.


Yes, very much double topped.

----------

vic-victor

----------


## DavidKOS

Found a picture of my old bowlback (it's long gone) while scanning old pictures

I think it was a Suzuki - no label

----------

brunello97

----------


## brunello97

Still have the vest?

Mick

----------


## DavidKOS

> Still have the vest?
> 
> Mick


Actually, yes, although it has a few more beads and tassels after a few years at the North CA Renn Fair.

That picture was taken in about 1985. I had the mandolin about 10 years already.

Here are the last pics I have of me in it, with Habiru belly dance group

----------

brunello97

----------


## brunello97

Nice work if you can get it, David.




There's a melody just waiting for a mandolin.  A nice evening task stretches out in front of me.

Mick

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## derbex

Mandolino embergher 5 bis http://r.ebay.com/HYcP7Q

----------


## Jim Garber

> Mandolino embergher 5 bis http://r.ebay.com/HYcP7Q


As far as I can tell this is an Embergher copy: Amerigo Forlani?  Famous? not so sure about that. The workmanship on this one looks less subtle than actual Embergher shop mandolins. 




> Favoloso mandolino modello embergher 5 bis costruito da un famoso liutaio di Torino nel 1945 Forlani Amerigo via Montenegro n. 184 Torino
>  Il mandolino e in ottima stato perfetto al 100/ per cento tutto originale. Questo liutaio costruiva mandolini per concertisti e solisti solo su ordinazione . Questo modello e identico a un embergher n. 5 bis sia per la sua leggerezza che per suono e maneggievolezza tastiera il guscio a forma di pera e doghe scanalate. E' identiche  (vedi foto) per domande o altre foto potete contattarmi grazie


Google Translate:



> Fabulous Mandolin Embergher 5 a model built by a famous luthier in Turin in 1945 Forlani Amerigo via Montenegro n. 184 Turin
>   Mandolin and excellent been perfect 100 / percent completely original. This luthier built mandolins for musicians and soloists only on order. This model is identical to a Embergher n. 5a both for its lightness and for sound and keyboard maneggievolezza the shell pear shaped and grooved planks. And 'identical (see photo) for questions or more pictures please contact me thanks

----------

DavidKOS, 

derbex

----------


## Martin Jonas

Quite impressive, however, for anybody in Turin to build a credible 5bis copy in 1945 -- fighting there continued right up to the ceasefire in May 1945, followed by considerable post-war upheaval for the rest of the year.  Not ideal condition to either make or sell a high-end mandolin.

Martin

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## derbex

If we're not keen on that there's this Vinaccia in need of some TLC http://r.ebay.com/W7otPz

----------


## brunello97

You're nobody until you're famous in Westchester, I guess.  :Wink:   Doing this quality work ought to make one at least locally famous.  90% as good as LE? 75% as good?  Still looks favoloso, _as does the price_.  Hopefully the quality goes with it.

Mick

----------


## Tavy

Not seen one of these for sale before - mandolin by Gabriel Pandini

----------


## tkdboyd

> Not seen one of these for sale before - mandolin by Gabriel Pandini


Want in the worst of ways...

Magnificent looking instrument.

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Want in the worst of ways...
> 
> Magnificent looking instrument.


Absolutely.  Although the concept of asking the luthier to value a used instrument that he built is somewhat dubious, as he has a vested interest in a high market price for his used instruments.

Martin

----------


## derbex

I have been drooling all day -way beyond my skill level. Value is a tricky thing, I wonder what he would charge to build one? I don't know how they compare but Carlo Mazzacara's Lucia model is listed at 2800 euros.

----------


## brunello97

> I have been drooling all day ......


Welcome to the Club. A scalloped maple bowl _will_ have that effect on a person.   :Wink: 

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

For a couple of years Carlo Aonzo was handpicking mandolins from Gabriele Pandini's workshop and transporting them over here to the US when he would teach in his Manhattan workshop. I got one of the two in the second round after playing his (made in the 1990s) and trying out two new ones the year before. I played that Pandini for many years and it was my main classical instrument until I got my Embergher 3.

Pandini's mandolins are large -- even bigger than Calaces. Mine came in a soft case to begin with and I had a real hard time finding a hard case to fit it — the Eastman cases were a tad too small. Finally through a stroke of luck I did find an actual Pandini hardcase that fit. That mandolin came with medium Dogal Calace strings and as long as I owned it, always had those strings on it. 

Carlo played his for years with a short hiatus playing a specially designed, modernized bowlback by Corrado Giacomel. Now he has returned AFAIK to his original Pandini. There is a recent video of Carlo and Brian Oberlin posted on another thread.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## derbex

> Welcome to the Club. A scalloped maple bowl _will_ have that effect on a person.  
> 
> Mick


I know, I was staying in Sorrento recently and happened to walk past a shop in one of the back streets which was an instrument fettlers and I wandered in and had a chat with a luthier who had a part finished scalloped maple bowl mandolin on display it looked gorgeous. Stupidly I didn't get his name, especially so since he said that he had built a mandolin for Ugo Orlandi.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## vkioulaphides

Having (briefly) played both Carlo's and Jim's Pandinis, I must second Jim's observations: those are _very_ heftily built. That is not to say of course that they are not _well_ built but simply that they are, ah... chunky.  :Wink: 

As in all such cases, if you get a chance to actually _handle_ an instrument of that sort, you can then make an educated guess on whether you would enjoy _owning_ one. A mandolin is a very, very personal choice...

Cheers,

Victor

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## brunello97

I played Carlo's Pandini for a bit, too, Victor, swapping him one of my Lelands which he rather charmingly implied he didn't want to trade back, raising both the mandolin and the mandolin player in my esteem. The Pandini _was_ a chunk of wood, though my memory fades on how much of that seemed in the neck and head and how much in the bowl.  

But it challenged the "lighter is better / more resonant" shibboleth that I have long associated with Italian bowls. 

I'm in no position to judge from that brief experience, but wonder what Jim (or other's) take is on that?  One would assume that GP could / would make his mandolins thinner and lighter _if he so desired._ 

Interesting discussion in light of the ongoing conversation about the "screwed Ceccherini" (awful conflation of terms) here, where the well appreciated "shimmering" sound (as our friend Martin definitively described it) of the lightly built, resonant Italian mandolins is properly touted. 

Mick

----------


## Tavy

Here's an interesting bowlback on eBay Germany, seems to have been one of 12 built by Hans Ragozky for Konrad Wölki.  IMO overpriced for an unknown maker, but probably a very good instrument - maybe Wölki had them made for his orchestra?

----------

DavidKOS, 

Denman John

----------


## vic-victor

Looks like a decent instrument. I've seen two plain Wolki mandolins in Russia, both were Embergher-inspired so to say and both were made in 1940. Ragozki had a shop and was publishing sheet music under his name. I guess it was probably a one off business affair between Wolki and Ragozki with later paying for manufacturing an x-number of mandolins in Markneukirchen and Wolki endorsing them.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## LadysSolo

Beautiful instrument, but apparently others thought it was overpriced too as no bids. I always wonder how it sounds....

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Martin Jonas

> Here's an interesting bowlback on eBay Germany, seems to have been one of 12 built by Hans Ragozky for Konrad Wölki.  IMO overpriced for an unknown maker, but probably a very good instrument - maybe Wölki had them made for his orchestra?


Interesting mandolin, but almost certainly not built by Hans Ragotzky.  Ragotzky was Wölki's publisher and the founder of what is now Trekel (Joachim Trekel took over the business after Ragotzky's death in 1967).  See the company history on Trekel's website (in German).  I would think that the instruments were sold through Ragotzky's shop, rather than built there.

Martin

----------

DavidKOS, 

vic-victor

----------


## brunello97

I'm not sure if this fellow has turned up here before: Tullio Shiavoni (or is it Shiavoni Tullio?)

An Embergher style mandolin made in Milano in the '20s.  The ad suggests the maker worked in LE's shop before returning to Milano.  Looks like he learned something from the master.

Interesting combination of E Ferrari label and TS signature on what appears to be the underside of the top.

Mick

----------

DavidKOS, 

Scot63, 

vic-victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice, Mick! looks like it is well- made, tho the bridge looks like it is not properlly positioned, for some reason cantilevered (!) over the cant. I still have my Torino Roman-style by *Carlo Colombo Bruno*. These northern Roman-styles are interesting to me, of course.

I would also direct your attention to this old thread which I originally set up as a companion to this thread: *Post a Picture of Your Bowlback*.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Martin Jonas

Interesting.  I'd be worried about condition: the action looks too high to the extent that the photos show it, and that may be related to the odd bridge position.  Same seller as the 1930s Vinaccia discussed in the other thread.  Neither has any offers yet at the starting price.

Martin

----------


## vic-victor

Mick, an interesting Embergher-style instrument indeed. 

Here is my 5 cents. A 1924 Japanese instrument (with ruined deck) from my files:

----------

brunello97

----------


## Jim Garber

Victor: any idea who made that Japanese one?

----------


## vic-victor

I have no clue, the instrument is well made, by the look of it, but the only mark inside is that 1924 stamp in Japanese, which is not too clear and looks more like a postal stamp. It has something written in Japanese perhaps someone who knows the language and has a sharp eye can read it somehow?

----------


## brunello97

"Embergher Copies of Note" might make a good dedicated thread in its own right.   :Wink: 

Mick

----------


## lex-joe

was wondering what  those of bowlback knowledge thought of this calace - http://www.ebay.com/itm/rare-ancienn...IAAOSwmtJXbvvA

thanks

----------


## Jim Garber

lex-joe: so, did you win this one? I had a similar one from the same era a few years ago. I call it the "hole in the head" model. Actually this one IIRC looks a bit higher in grade with an extended fretboard. It looks like it is in amazing shape but I wonder, aside from the repaired cracks on the top, whether anything else was done. The finish almost looks too shiny. However, it is possible that the rest is original. I find that bowlbacks that come with their original cases were cared for and therefore could be in fine condition.

----------

derbex

----------


## lex-joe

Jim, no didn't get it, probably best coming from so far away.  I was thinking about checking out one of the Mazzaccara mandolin      Lucia model when they arrive in the US.  Thanks for your reply.

----------


## Ausdoerrt

Hello, folks!

I received the suggestion to drop a link to my thread about an odd apparently German bowlback in here. Here goes:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...rious-bowlback

Would appreciate y'all's insight!

----------

Beanzy

----------


## Beanzy

Here are the photos embedded for posterity/ quick access;

----------


## Vangelis M.

Here there are three Emberghers (or close):

- *a n.1 of 1929*: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mandolino-Lu...-/201652405255


- *a new Takusari, 2016*: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Takusari-Emb...-/282162410201


- and *a Pecoraro 5bis* (or 6 more likely?),* 1965*: http://www.ebay.com/itm/PASQUALE-PEC...vip=true&rt=nc

----------

brunello97, 

vic-victor

----------


## Ausdoerrt

Curious bowlback sighted, again, on local Ukrainian listings. Odd/ugly inlay on top, but cool-looking bowl and tuners.

 


P.S. Found this article tracing other instruments with such inlays: http://memoriesoftheinnocentage.blog...y-on-boat.html

So it's likely that on the one I listed, someone had the bright idea of retouching the inlay *shakes head*


P.S. Any idea on what such an instrument would be worth?

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Jim Garber

> P.S. Any idea on what such an instrument would be worth?


I have an idea of worth but I would probably say not much. That colorized inlay is not so exciting esp if if was done after-market and it looks like the neck might be warped. The bowl looks pretty good but this is at best a middle-grade mandolin. Puglisi mandolins are generally considered among the better of the Catania/Sicilian ones but I am not convinced that this is a Puglisi and even it it were one would still not be worth that much. I think you know that this would not be a treasure but, assuming it didn't need much work (like neck straightening) it might be a nice playble mandolin.  I don't mind it if it were just pearl, but the inlay is pretty garish with that color.

----------


## Ausdoerrt

Oh, I'm almost convinced that inlay was "retouched" by the looks of it, horrible job, too. I'm probably passing on it unless the seller drops the price significantly (which eventually happens to just about all old mandos sold 'round these parts)

----------


## Jairo Ramos Parra

I bought this mandolin, and I am so happy because is my first bowlback! To find mandolins in my country is impossible, a friend found this for me in Venezuela, where there is a mandolin culture. The label is Horugel, the name is in the headstock. I google it, but only found that this company is closed and made pianos. I think that maybe can find information here.

A luthier is making a bone nut and making a setup, the action is hight but playable, maybe is not the original bridge.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Bill Clements

Nice looking mandolin, Jairo!
Welcome to the Cafe.

----------

brunello97

----------


## Jim Garber

I would guess that bridge should be positioned a little closer to the cant (bend) in the top.

----------


## Jairo Ramos Parra

It's weird, but in that position is the 12th fret distance, and give a perfect entonation. My guess was the same, the bridge should be closer to the cant, as I saw in all bowlbacks mandolin in this forum. The luthier thinks the same. Maybe with the new bone nut, and the setup of the bridge for a better action, the intonation change and the bridge must be repositioned?

By the way, Mr. Garber, do you know something about this mandolin label (Horugel)?

----------


## Jim Garber

Normally, the bridge placement should be further back but if it intonates properly where it is then that is correct. 

I only know about Horugel what I found on a quick search: evidently a distributor selling imported mandolins in Germany. Some seem to be made in Korea and some in eastern Europe. Do you like the tone and quality of the mandolin? 

I am very interested in the music of Colombia. I have listened to the accordion music from Vallenato for years. Do yo play any Colombian tunes on mandolin? I know there are some fretted instruments that are used in traditional music in your country, like tiple and bandola, tuned in fourths instead of fifths like the mandolin. A few are pictured *here*.

----------

brunello97

----------


## Jairo Ramos Parra

Yes, Mr. Garber, the sound and quality of the mandolin is good, is my first bowlback and I am very happy. I began studying music with the bandola, 16 strings, now the bandolas are made of 12 strings, and played a lot of our music. I am from the Andean zone of the country, so I began playing pasillos, bambucos, danzas, etc. The vallenato is from the north coast, atlantic coast of the country, the accordeon is  a modern addition. 

My great-grandfather was one of the developpers of the Tiple (Pedro Leon Franco), at the beginning of the XX century. He made popular the Bambuco in México, fighting with Pancho Villa.

----------

Bill Clements, 

brunello97, 

Jim Garber

----------


## Ausdoerrt

Here's a "curiosity": a Soviet-made mandolin that actually doesn't look like crap. Obvious rip-off of Calace, too. "Lviv Musical Instrument Factory" label inside.

  

I've heard that the Soviet musical instrument factories used to have "export models" of higher quality, but this is my first time seeing one on sale.

----------


## brunello97

Well, if you're going to rip someone off, Calace is a good place to start.

The bowl itself looks quite nice, particularly the aft end.

Mick

----------


## vic-victor

Here is another decent-looking one made for export by Chernigov factory in Ukraine (USSR back then).

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS

----------


## brunello97

Muy cool double O Ring soundhole, Victor.

Mick

----------


## Ausdoerrt

I feel like I've seen this around the internets before, but that crazy rosette design never fails to impress  :Smile:

----------


## vic-victor

Both are after German prototypes, I think. I've seen German double ring one (the oval holes though). I would not be surprised if Ukrainian factories had their people travelling to Saxony factories for inspiration. It was quite possible during the Eastern-bloc days.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here's a *1902 Model 5 Embergher* in need of restoration on eBay Italy. You would think the seller would have taken some larger photos for such a highend mandolin.

----------


## brunello97

> Here's a *1902 Model 5 Embergher* in need of restoration on eBay Italy. You would think the seller would have taken some larger photos for such a highend mandolin.


Sold for $4400. 

Needs a major overhaul but certainly worth it.  The maple bowl is fabulous to my eye. When I see the slotted headstock on these higher end Emberghers it only makes the bottle opener headstock versions appear even sillier to me.  This design is pure elegance.

Mick

----------


## plinkey

This very nice Embergher mandolin is on eBay currently, and the auction is running for another few days.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mandoline-19...0AAOSw44BYCgUb
The mandolin appears to be all original too. Unfortunately, a few of its bowl staves are cracked, and that sort of repair would be very hard to conceal. (Tavy and I exchanged briefly a few thoughts about the mandolin.) Be that as it may, since we are looking at an upper spec Embergher in otherwise good condition, I'd expect it will sell for a pretty penny despite the broken bowl.

----------

brunello97, 

vic-victor

----------


## brunello97

This looks in good shape but for the Humpty Dumpty back.  The fluted maple Embergher bowls are really pretty.

Will be interesting to see what this sells for. No need for All the King's Men.  John could get this back in primo condition.  

Mick

----------


## Martin Jonas

Very pretty -- an orchestral No. 3, I think.  Will be interesting to see how much it sells for.

Condition looks good except for the back. I would think that's difficult to repair invisibly, but a structurally sound repair should be possible as there aren't any particular forces acting on that part of the back.  I wonder how one can get that sort of crack on the back (which is pretty sturdy) without any apparent damage to the more vulnerable parts of the mandolin.

Martin

----------


## Tavy

> This looks in good shape but for the Humpty Dumpty back.  The fluted maple Embergher bowls are really pretty.
> 
> Will be interesting to see what this sells for. No need for All the King's Men.  John could get this back in primo condition.


Umm well... not sure about _primo_, but a decent player certainly, much harder to disguise repairs in broken maple ribs than rosewood ones.

As for how it got that way... maybe an argument with a mandola player?  :Smile:

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Bruce Clausen

... or maybe a mandolin riot like this famous guitar scene (Carullists vs. Molinists)?

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DavidKOS

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## brunello97

> Umm well... not sure about _primo_, but a decent player certainly, much harder to disguise repairs in broken maple ribs than rosewood ones.
> 
> As for how it got that way... maybe an argument with a mandola player?


Well, John, the happy new owner will have years of fun making up stories about what might have happened.  Could have been a fire poker.  :Wink: 

Mick

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DavidKOS

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## plinkey

> much harder to disguise repairs in broken maple ribs than rosewood ones.


How awkward would it be to glue up the cracks without a good support from inside the mandolin ? Have you ever used maple wood filings mixed with glue to a paste-like consistency as a crack filler ? Then, of course, there is commercially available "plastic woods" too, I've used those on a few old beat-up wooden cases for mandolins, but never on instruments themselves. The stuff I've had shrinks as it dries, plus I could not get it sanded smooth.

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DavidKOS

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## Jim Garber

My 1904 No. 3 in rosewood probably had similar bowl fractures. Mine had what looked like an amateur repair using Plastic Wood as a filler. Kurt DeCorte did the restoration of that area and did an excellent job, tho, as John noted, it might be easier to cosmetically hide the repair on a dark wood than a light one. Still I would think it would be possible and it looks like that part of the bowl did not have prior repairs which might be an advantage. I would say even a short drop off a table could cause that damage. If the mandolin was in a stable situation temperature and humidity wise, it may be possible that it might not need much in the way of filler. I guess only in-hand examination with tell, for sure.

I love the No.3 I have and I am sure that this one could be a nice one, too.

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DavidKOS

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## plinkey

Jim, did DeCorte have to use any filler (paste) on wood gaps in the breaks ? I mean, sometimes when we are lucky,  a break looks like a separation which could be reclosed and glued, with no gaps left.

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## Tavy

> How awkward would it be to glue up the cracks without a good support from inside the mandolin ? Have you ever used maple wood filings mixed with glue to a paste-like consistency as a crack filler ? Then, of course, there is commercially available "plastic woods" too, I've used those on a few old beat-up wooden cases for mandolins, but never on instruments themselves. The stuff I've had shrinks as it dries, plus I could not get it sanded smooth.


I wouldn't use commercial fillers, wood dust and HHG works well as a filler, but:

* Wood dust and glue is always darker than the solid wood alone, sometime much darker, which is an issue for maple obviously.
* Wood dust and glue, likewise the commercial fillers, have no intrinsic strength, so they're usable for cosmetic issues only.

That said, I would hope that one would glue up with almost no gaps, albeit a bit of a puzzle to fit together.  If the basic structure was sound after gluing with just a couple of small pinhole like gaps here and there, then those could be filled with glue and dust.  Reinforcing from behind would help too of course.  Note that even if it all glued up with no gaps or fills, I would still expect the glue lines to be visible on maple - glue lines _along_ the grain (centre seems etc) can be almost invisible, but not across the grain like that.  And lastly... glued end grain is very weak, so we would be back to reinforcement again (probably!).  There are a few tricks one can use (like colourless kitchen gelatin for HHG) which would no doubt help, but you probably wouldn't know how it would turn out till you'd done it, it certainly shouldn't look too much like Dr Frankenstein s mandolin, might not even be noticeable from a casual glance, just not invisible.

HTH, John.

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plinkey

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## plinkey

Thank you, mate, all that makes perfect sense to me.  :Wink:

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## Jim Garber

> Jim, did DeCorte have to use any filler (paste) on wood gaps in the breaks ? I mean, sometimes when we are lucky,  a break looks like a separation which could be reclosed and glued, with no gaps left.


I don't know but here is what it looks like after the work was done:

 

Before shots:

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

plinkey

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## Tavy

Great work on a very fine looking bowl!

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## plinkey

Yes, Jim's pictures show a super repair, and as master Tavy had observed before, that sort of repair works better on rosewood than on maple, speaking from the repair "optics" viewpoint.

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## vic-victor

J. Bonabilla Instrument from ebay France. (This is what happens when someone try to marry Calace with De Meglio)

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brunello97

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## brunello97

Well, a mandolin could have _worse_ parents, Victor.  :Wink: 

Here's a link to the ebay auction and a shot of the label.

Mick

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## Beanzy

Back at the beginning of November a group of mando-nuts went on a visit to the Victoria & Albert Museum Furniture Stores at Blythe House in London. I'm posting up a selection of photos here as it seems the most logical place to make them available.

First off Antonio Petroni no.50. Made in Rome 1865. 
Label inside says prize winner at the Paris Exhibition of 1867.

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Bruce Clausen, 

brunello97, 

vic-victor

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## Beanzy

And more of the case...

 

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brunello97, 

vic-victor

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## Beanzy

Left: "Milanese mandolin" (guitar tuning) made by Giuseppe Molinari active between 1737-1762.
Right: "Neapolitan Mandolin" Antonio Vinaccia made in Naples in Via Constantini 1772.

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## Beanzy

Continued.. 

 

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I'll add some others once I get the catalogue info sorted to give the correct description to the remaining ones.

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brunello97, 

vic-victor

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## Beanzy

Upper: Antonio, Vinaccia mandolin from 1772
Lower: 6 course mandolin, possibly from Genoa around about 1770

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## Beanzy

Mandore / Milanese mandolin made in Paris by Jean Nicolas Lambert 1752

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## Beanzy

Milanese mandolin by Pietro Antonio Gavelli 1690 Perugia

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## Beanzy

Saz (No info yet & just posting as a curiosity of lutherie rather than anything mandolin related)

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## Beanzy

Upper: Vincenzo Vinaccia Neapolitan mandolin 1785
Lower: (Searching for info we were given)

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brunello97

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## Beanzy

Finally some panorama photos I took for detail:









A really big thank you to Maxine who organised this visit over nine months of chasing up and liason.

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## Tavy

Wow, some great stuff there Eoin, must have been a great trip!

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## Beanzy

> Upper: Antonio, Vinaccia mandolin from 1772
> Lower: 6 course mandolin, possibly from Genoa around about 1770


Oops it was bound to happen. Post 6938 should I possibly be;
Vincenzo Vinaccia with a speculative date of 1761 or 1766-1767 don't know why they're uncertain.

The catalogue pages I have seem to have a totally unrelated mandolin photo to the description given so I'm going by the description.

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## Tavy

Overpriced Ceccherini 10-stringer on eBay UK

Interestingly the string tensioners seem to be set for 4 courses?  Maybe 2+2+3+3 was the original stringing on these?

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## Jim Garber

> Overpriced Ceccherini 10-stringer on eBay UK
> 
> Interestingly the string tensioners seem to be set for 4 courses?  Maybe 2+2+3+3 was the original stringing on these?


Yes, price is up there considering it will need considerable work plus a good bath. I believe that is how it would have been strung. Martin J has one (or maybe _had_ one?). Take a look at the two treble hooks. The right side looks longer to take two strings, I believe.

Here is a clear pic of the stringing from another example including the cast string nut with built-in zero fret:
 

And the usual Porpoise™ Pics attached.

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## vic-victor

Embergher inspired Giuseppe Battiato, Catania instrument from Russia. Looks neat and well made.The maker is a mistery though. No other mentioning in the net. But the instrument reminds the ones made by Francesco Olivieri, perhaps there is a connection of some sort...

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## brunello97

> Yes, price is up there considering it will need considerable work plus a good bath. I believe that is how it would have been strung. Martin J has one (or maybe _had_ one?). Take a look at the two treble hooks. The right side looks longer to take two strings, I believe.
> 
> Here is a clear pic of the stringing from another example including the cast string nut with built-in zero fret:
>  
> 
> And the usual Porpoise Pics attached.


Good eye, Jim. I was looking at this and wondering about the 4 hooks / 10 strings. Also wondering if that top crack aligning w the bass hook was a chicken or egg thing. 

Mick

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## brunello97

> Embergher inspired Giuseppe Battiato, Catania instrument from Russia. Looks neat and well made.The maker is a mistery though. No other mentioning in the net. But the instrument reminds the ones made by Francesco Olivieri, perhaps there is a connection of some sort...


Muy cool, Victor. Curious mandolin, as we've seen so often from Sicily..with scrupulous attention to-sort of get an Embergherian recurve at the bowl/neck joint along with a very un-Roman neck profile.

Man, that maple looks good though.

Mick

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## vic-victor

> with a very un-Roman neck profile.


And the bridge is not Roman either  :Smile:

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## brunello97

Thanks, Victor. I don't have Battiato in my records of Italian makers / sellers either, so that is a nice addition as well.
Did he make them, or Puglisi?  The bowl construction is noticeably better than some LE copy mandolins I've seen. Why didn't they follow it all the way through? Or was it a conscious attempt to morph to an LE style bowl on a neck we mere mortals, 180 average bowlers could handle? 
Mick

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## vic-victor

> Thanks, Victor. I don't have Battiato in my records of Italian makers / sellers either, so that is a nice addition as well.
> Did he make them, or Puglisi?  The bowl construction is noticeably better than some LE copy mandolins I've seen. Why didn't they follow it all the way through? Or was it a conscious attempt to morph to an LE style bowl on a neck we mere mortals, 180 average bowlers could handle? ��
> Mick


Mick, I have no idea and haven't heard of that maiker before either. Just saw the ad in the Russian Classifies. The instrument does not look that very old, perhaps 1930's or later. Checked the address via google maps, still there, looks like it is a bank branch now. The scratch plate is the same as on many higher end Olivieri instruments, but they could have been generic, as many other Catanese ones. A nice touch is the binding lines embedded into the fretboard.

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## brunello97

Thanks, Victor.... Can you read the address number on Piazza S Placido?  I was just checking it out on Google just now, too.  Charming if not curious little piazza with a nice little (very _Roman_ looking) Baroque church.  Makes you wonder, eh?  

You think it is that new, maybe from the tailpiece?  Everything else appears of the classic era.  I just love these Catanese mandolins.  Each one is a story in and of itself.   :Smile: 

Mick

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## vic-victor

I think the address is no. 2, but it looks somethings has been erased from the address line. I dolci di Nonna Vincenza at the opposite building looks like an old warehouse or factory, by the way.

Age is my guesswork based on a condition. Most pre-revolution times mandolins in Russia are now completely ruined. But it could be just a well preserved example, who knows? There was virtually no musical instruments import into Russia after 1918 for quite some time. I have seen a somewhat similar Embergher-like mandolin I had a brief encounter here in Oz years ago, it had a similar maple bowl and a plain light green label mentioning someone's name and address in Catania only. It was from 1950's. Can't recall the details now, but I thought of that one as soon as I've seen this one.

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## DavidKOS

> Saz (No info yet & just posting as a curiosity of lutherie rather than anything mandolin related)


The round body, and very long neck make this look to me more like a Greek tamboura or a Turkish Tanbur:



Sazes, be they divan, baglama, cura, etc. are more almond shaped and have slightly shorter necks.

That is a very fancy sample, though, fancier than any I've seen. It also seems to have a lower bridge than the ones I've seen, too.

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## Martin Jonas

> Yes, price is up there considering it will need considerable work plus a good bath. I believe that is how it would have been strung. Martin J has one (or maybe _had_ one?). Take a look at the two treble hooks. The right side looks longer to take two strings, I believe.


Yes, I did have one of these Ceccherini 10-stringers, but sold it a long time ago.  They are four-course instruments intended for a 2+2+3+3 setup -- you can tell that from the hooks, but more clearly from the tailpiece which has six pegs on the treble side and only four on the bass side.  Lovely headstock inlay on mine, which none of my other Ceccherinis have had.

Mine was an opportunistic buy: it was an attic find the seller put on Ebay for 50 Pounds BIN, collect in person from Colwyn Bay (15 minutes drive from me), so I pulled the trigger immediately.  I cleaned it up, set it up for playing as an 8-string, and sold it again on Ebay to a buyer from Naples -- it went home to where it was made more than a century ago!

As I recall, it had a slightly wider and slightly stouter neck than the 8-string version, presumably to allow for the additional string tension, but not wide enough to set it up for five courses.  Other than that, it had the typical double-top and the corresponding tone much like any other Ceccherini.  I can't recall whether it was as responsive -- I would expect the extra bracing for the higher tension to make it less so, but having a more sturdy construction is not necessarily a bad thing for an old bowlback.

I think I posted some photos in the bowlback picture thread back then.

Martin

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## Vangelis M.

Anyone heard of an Embergher copy by Calace?





Description mentions:



> Mandolino Raffaele Calace del 1924, copia del mod. n. 5 Embergher.

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## brunello97

> Anyone heard of an Embergher copy by Calace?


Looks to be in a strangely _untouched_ condition.  Something seems sketchioso about that label, too, though Calace used a lot of different ones.  The '24 labels I have in my files are in blue ink with the "e figlio" (and son.)  

Maybe someone else has a better match.

Mick

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## Namder

Is this in your possession?  if so give us some more information.

John

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## Jim Garber

It looks like it is for sale here: *Subito*

I wonder how close to Embergher specs it is. Is the fretboard radiused? Hard to tell tho the bridge looks flat. Those engraved inlays look nice tho. Overall it looks like a nicely made mandolin.

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## Bob A

Hard to imagine a brand-new 80 year old mandolin. Bowl lacks the compound recurve that Emberghers exhibit; inlaid bridge position dot not seen in Calace.

Whoever made it did a nice job. The fact that it has a Calace label rather than one by the actual maker smacks of intent to defraud. If I made such an instrument, I'd want my talents to be made known.  Of course, it _might_ be the only Embergher-style Calace ever made, carefully stored away for a couple generations

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## Vangelis M.

No, it is not in my possession.  :Smile:  Just happened to come across the ad and it seemed rather extraordinary; so I posted here.
I contacted the seller for more info, but I haven't received a reply. He also has for sale another embergher and one calace (http://m.subito.it/annunciutente-mob...view_202913902)

The fretboard must be inclined, because the bone saddle looks thicker on the bass side. The nut too.
The highly detailed floral inlays reminded me of the calace decorations.
Can you tell whether the bowl is spruce lined or paper lined?

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## vic-victor

A fine instrument, but is it made by Calace? Anything is possible, could be a special order, but the fact that no one have seen a Calace like that before and that the seller is actually in Catania suggests there is a possibility that the instrument in question is a Catanese mandolin with an added label. As for good condition, it looks like it has been restored and probably refinished. Another Embergher he has for sale look legit. As for another 1954 Calace, it looks legit, but I always thought that that "fingers" end of the fretboard is more modern innovation. Any oppinions on that?

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## Beanzy

I reckon someone bought a good one on ebay from up in York at £125

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## Tavy

> I reckon someone bought a good one on ebay from up in York at £125


That one looked like a cheap copy to me?

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## Martin Jonas

> That one looked like a cheap copy to me?


Yes, I think that's a generic German Embergher copy.  For some reason, the Roman style appears to be harder to copy successfully than the Neapolitan style -- the clones I have seen have tended to be pretty uninspiring to play.

Martin

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## Beanzy

I assumed the same as you.
If you look at the hi res on ebay you can see it's been well done with good wood and a very nicely shaped body/neck join too.
Radiused fingerboard & proper bridge make it a very attractive starting point.
My trio partner picked up a lovely maple backed proper one for a similar price about two years back.
The Embergher necks are too narrow for me or I might have taken a flier on this up to about £200 and if necessary thinned the back.
Definitely looks good for what they paid.

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## Jim Garber

I concur that the one Eoin notes is a copy, prob German. The scratchplate is completely wrong for a N.1.

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## Vangelis M.

> ... but I always thought that that "fingers" end of the fretboard is more modern innovation. Any oppinions on that?


What do you mean by 'fingers' end, Victor?




> I reckon someone bought a good one on ebay from up in York at £125


I believe this mandolin is from Vincenzo Miroglio. A lot of similar characteristics (bridge shape, headstock proprtions, scratchplate design, tailpiece..).
It seems like a nice construction though.

Perhaps all these luthiers were not trying to copy the emberghers, rather were inspired by them and used the features they liked, fused with their own... perspective or luthiery/decorative skills.
So many 'bad' 'copies', but were they intended to be _copies_ in the first place?




----------

On a different note, there was also this beautiful mandolin on ebay.it from ... _Fratello Diosino Rossi_ (titled 'Roma', but right under 'Munchen'), with figured maple staves. 
Also a 'copy', but with more character of its own. 
Anyone know of their performance perhaps?

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## vic-victor

> What do you mean by 'fingers' end, Victor?

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## brunello97

> Perhaps all these luthiers were not trying to copy the emberghers, rather were inspired by them and used the features they liked, fused with their own... perspective or luthiery/decorative skills.
> So many 'bad' 'copies', but were they intended to be _copies_ in the first place?


Nicely put, MV.  I found myself wondering almost the same thing. The MC is full of discussions about builders of F5 model mandolins some of which are obvious attempts to duplicate the qualitative aspects of the classic Gibson mandolins, and some attempts to better them.  

Many are inexpensive models that seek to reproduce some of the iconic formal aspects of the F5s while leaving others to chance, cost-cutting or lesser craft.  These "F5" mandolins span the full spectrum of quality and playability.   Besides the ones from the era where blatantly false labels and inlays were added I really don't consider any of these to be "copies", but "in-the-style-of".

There is a weird hagiography around Embergher mandolins here which differs from the maturing conversations about F5s.  Maybe because they are not as plentiful and widespread anymore.

I agree.  Why shouldn't we just view these as (which is what I think Martin is after with his post) as Embergher / Roman "style" mandolins rather than the pejorative "copy" and then evaluate them on their own merits rather than to how faithfully they reproduce the hallowed master LE?

I had a German Embergher / Roman style mandolin for awhile that admittedly was way too tiny for my fingers.  But it was a decent mandolin, likeable even, _for what it was_, nicely, if not expertly made.  My evaluation of it was in terms of what it was, not how short it stood relative to a "real" LE.  It seems weird / pointless to me to do that any more than I would comp an Eastman or a The Loar with an actual Loar.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

BTW there were, as many of us already know, Roman style mandolins before Embergher. All Roman copies do not have to be strictly Embergher copies. In fact Embergher copied someone and he and Cerrone refined the style and the instruments.

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## vic-victor

The one from Peru. Armadillo back instrument. It once was a large armadillo. The ones used for charango are smaller.

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## Ausdoerrt

Oh wow, that's something!

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## Jim Garber

> The one from Peru. Armadillo back instrument. It once was a large armadillo. The ones used for charango are smaller.


I have heard that on the best charangos with armadillo backs the hair still grows. I am happy to say that the one I own has a carved wooden back. For some reason the armadillo shells creep me out tho I should be equally creeped by mandolins covered with TS.

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## Tavy

> I have heard that on the best charangos with armadillo backs the hair still grows. I am happy to say that the one I own has a carved wooden back. For some reason the armadillo shells creep me out tho I should be equally creeped by mandolins covered with TS.


Do you need to shave them?  :Smile: 

Either way, that would really creep me out as well, though it sure is a talking point!

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## Jim Garber

Yes, they used to come with a shaving kit. 

I am not even sure that you can import them into the US any more. I also heard they sometimes carry all sorts of disease.

OK, quick research. It looks like the US armadillos are the ones that can carry leprosy (!) and not the SA ones. *Armadillos and Leprosy article*.

OTOH who knows what the SA armadillos carry....

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## brunello97

As a boy in East Texas we were taught to stay _very_ clear of armadillos alive, but especially dead. Plenty of road kill 'dillos for the folks from Arkansas.  :Wink: 

All the talk about leprosy might just be talk, but it registered with me at age five, and still does today.  Like Jim, I've got an all wood charango.  The mojo may not be workin' but that is still enough for me.

I love playing charango but no need to get all reptilian about it. 

Yes, drunk at age 18 on the Ship Channel in Houston I probably _ate_ some 'dillo, but once is enough.

Mick

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## lex-joe

Hi, anyone have an opinion on the Carlo Mazzaccara Lucia bowlback mandolin.  Thanks

Looking for a good bowlback classical mandolin

- - - Updated - - -

Hi, anyone have an opinion on the Eastman Bowlback Mandolin?  thanks

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## vkioulaphides

> I love playing charango but no need to get all reptilian about it.


Words to live by. Ancient Greek string instruments often had bowls of tortoiseshell-- as in, the _whole_ shell. Dunno... that would make me a bit queasy. Then again, back in the day folks would clobber each other on the head with cows' hip-bones, so one can't be _all_ that precious looking back in time. 

For _present_-day use, I'd stick with, ah... _vegetable_ matter.  :Laughing: 

Cheers,

Victor

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## Jim Garber

> Hi, anyone have an opinion on the Carlo Mazzaccara Lucia bowlback mandolin.  Thanks
> 
> Looking for a good bowlback classical mandolin
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Hi, anyone have an opinion on the Eastman Bowlback Mandolin?  thanks


I played an Eastman and was pretty impressed by the quality. If you can get one for a decent price go for it. I have not played any Mazzacara mandolins.

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## blindsay86

Hi everyone! I picked up Mandolin in December and this site has been a great source for me! I want to thank everyone for sharing their knowledge and passion.

I bought and restored this old Mandolin, I think it's from the 20's or 30'2 but have had a hard time finding the exact year, or even make. There is no visible label on the inside (or outside.) It was sold to me as a Stella, but the person really had no idea.

Can anyone help me identify this? Year? Make? Place of origin?

Any hints would be greatly appreciated!

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## Jim Garber

It is probably American-made and was stripped with newer parts. The larger makers like Oscar Schmidt (Stella) often made these less-expensive mandolins for retail stores to sell. They often sold by the dozen. it could be Stella. Most of these were made around the turn of the last century into the 1920s.

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blindsay86

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## blindsay86

> It is probably American-made and was stripped with newer parts. The larger makers like Oscar Schmidt (Stella) often made these less-expensive mandolins for retail stores to sell. They often sold by the dozen. it could be Stella. Most of these were made around the turn of the last century into the 1920s.


Jim, thanks for the info!  I think the hardware is original, I cleaned it up with my dremel, to get everything working again.  I saw somewhere that the tuning hardware is post 1920 because of the slotted screws, rather than the rivets that were used pre-1920.

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## brunello97

> I think the hardware is original.......I saw somewhere that the tuning hardware is post 1920 because of the slotted screws, rather than the rivets that were used pre-1920.


Well, that might be some sketchioso information.  I'm sitting with a '00 era Washburn bowlback--with slotted screws on the (original) tuners.  Not an anomaly. 

My hunch is that Jim noticed the slight overhang of the tuners on the headstock.  This would seem an abnormal original condition--and perhaps the consequence of a replacement set of tuners or from ambitious sanding in a refinish process.  But, however delightful, this is a modest mandolin, so that off-alignment might well have been outdabox.

I would hazard a guess that your mandolin is more than a bit closer to '00 than it is to '20. Not likely '20s.  Zero chance of '30s.  The contrasting staves were a feature that was seen often in the '90s but tended to disappear as time went on. I agree with Mr. Jim in that this might well be from the Atlantic Rim rather than the ubiquitous (knee-jerk) Chicago assignation.  

Looks to be in pretty good shape / repair. Please tell us that those are Extra Light strings.  Then Play On!

Mick

----------

blindsay86

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## blindsay86

EXTRA LIGHT STRINGS INDEED!!  Thank you so much Mick!  Some great information!

I also noticed the off set tuners, as I am the one that restored/repaired it (two of the ribs on the bowl has separated).
The Mandolin lived most of it's life in Ohio, for what it's worth.  I assume that it was a modest Mandolin for it's day due to the few number of staves.  I figured the more ribs, the fancier.

Any tips on where I can dig in and read about Mandolins from this era?

----------


## brunello97

> ...Any tips on where I can dig in and read about Mandolins from this era?


Unfortunately, there is no one collected source on American bowlback mandolins per se.  Lots of fragments of stories and information in different sources.  

Keef Pleijsier's book on Washburn instruments has a lot of great material on Lyon and Healy's mandolins from the era.

Same with Bob Carlin's book on Regal Instruments, also out of Chicago.

Our friend Graham McDonald's great book is a comprehensive history of the mandolin, but he does include extensive sections on US makers from the era.

One of the very best--probably the best-- collection of information on bowlback mandolins is this very thread.  From it's start it has been an amazing ongoing source of information for me. So many people have contributed from all over the world: Jim, Martin, Eugene, both Victors, Alex T, Allen, Plami, Bob, David, Beanzy, John, Bill K.  Too many to name. The thread was going full steam long before I got on board, and I learned much of what I know from these folks.  

Totally worth wading through the ebbs and flows of conversations.  Lots of material on Italian bowlbacks as well.  We've tried to imbed photos in the posts so links to websites or auctions aren't lost.  Would make a great book--if someone would edit out all my dopey commentary!

Glad to have another bowlaficianado join us.

Mick

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blindsay86

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## blindsay86

Mick,
thank you so much!  I've been playing Mandolin for 6 months, and when I get into something I GET INTO IT.
Mandolin Cafe has been my best source for history, tabs, and tips. SHOUT OUT to everyone contributing to this forum.

I am sure there are many people getting great info from this site that never register and make it known, would be a great project to compile all the great knowledge shared here.

This site is an example of what the internet should and can be.

Cheers!
Benjamin

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## billkilpatrick

Got my bowl back back … and it's amazing how much better it sounds to me now, then it did a couple of years ago.  Live (play) and learn ...

----------


## billkilpatrick

> Got my bowl back back … and it's amazing how much better it sounds to me now, then it did a couple of years ago.  Live (play) and learn ...

----------

Bill Clements, 

Bruce Clausen, 

Tavy, 

vic-victor

----------


## billkilpatrick

"A. Galiano" bowlback for sale in the classifieds …

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/111052

----------


## brunello97

> 


Glad to have you back in the Brotherhood, Bill.  :Smile:   It's like you never left.....

Mick

----------

billkilpatrick

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## vkioulaphides

The Brotherhood, while silent at times, runs deep, _very_ deep...  :Wink:

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## billkilpatrick

> The Brotherhood, while silent at times, runs deep, _very_ deep...


Not so much a cabal as a cabowl ...

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brunello97

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## blindsay86

Does anyone know if bowl backs have a standard size and shape for their sound hole?  I am looking at installing a pick guard and am not sure if they are more or less universal.

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## brunello97

> Does anyone know if bowl backs have a standard size and shape for their sound hole?  I am looking at installing a pick guard and am not sure if they are more or less universal.


Every one is likely different--even sometimes on the same model from the same maker.  Not likely to be anything available on the aftermarket.  They were typically attached to the top directly or inset into the wood. 

Think deeply about whether this is necessary for you or not.  Could be a radical altering move to an old instrument in good condition / restoration.   Not that it is my business, but I would advise against it.

Mick

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blindsay86

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## Jim Garber

My humble opinion: this is not a terribly valuable instrument. You already refinished(?) it butt if you really want to put a pickgaurd on it, knock yourself out. 

For my ukes I used to get some self-stick clear plastic and they worked very nicely to protect the top of the instrument. If you like the look of tortoise pickguard material you can either get pre-made Martin-style guitar pickguards and cut them to fit or else just get a sheet of *that material* and glue it to the top.

This *removable material* might be another good possibility.

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blindsay86

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## blindsay86

From Jim Garber "this is not a terribly valuable instrument. You already refinished(?)"

Yes, I've already re-finished it.  What do you estimate its value to be? I paid $60

I thought I might buy a pick guard from the time period, and it might be an upgrade to the instrument, but I am leaning away from adding anything to it.  Might have, it was an easy do, and if it wouldn't affect the value negatively.

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## Jim Garber

> From Jim Garber "this is not a terribly valuable instrument. You already refinished(?)"
> 
> Yes, I've already re-finished it.  What do you estimate its value to be? I paid $60
> 
> I thought I might buy a pick guard from the time period, and it might be an upgrade to the instrument, but I am leaning away from adding anything to it.  Might have, it was an easy do, and if it wouldn't affect the value negatively.


For $60 you got yourself a nice playing old instrument. These particular ones were made by the thousands. I would not worry too much about authenticity or value. Just enjoy it. It is not valuable and probably not worth much more than you have in it. The only place to get a pickguard from the period would be to buy another one or find another bowlback mandolin in pieces. Of course you could do that, but most likely it would fall into pieces when you try to get it off the old wood. If you want to try putting one on yours get a sheet of tortoise-style and cut it to shape.

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blindsay86

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## blindsay86

After much advice and deliberation, I decided to cut and add a pick guard.  I also replaced the nut and bridge, I found the bridge on ebay from a fella in Canada, new condition, he guessed it was from the 1960's.  I took the mandolin to the music store a few blocks from my house on Haight street in San Francisco; they loved it, and said they would be interested in taking it on consignment.  I played dumb and asked what they think it should be priced at, they suggested $500-$600! Rubes! I think when I find a new project, I'll bring this one to them to finance the hobby!

Cheers and thanks for the info!

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## brunello97

Doesn't look too bad......Nice work.  :Wink:   Might as well keep it and play it.

As to your Haight St. music folks.... yes, rubes indeed, if they think they would be getting this kind of dinero for it on consignment.  Or maybe they're hoping for a rube, indeed, to pay that kind of money (about the proverbial Hot Taco's chance on the North Pole....)

Get them to pay you half that up front and do a happy dance all the way home.

Mick

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## Ausdoerrt

There should really be a thread for "mandolin oddities", because I don't think this one is of any note, but I certainly wanted to share it with y'all.




It's a G.Puglisi Reale&Figli being sold on a local listing. I aint' touching it at this condition at the price asked, but I thought it's be fun to post it up here, since I've never seen a mando with such an odd - and frankly funny - design!

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## derbex

Nice pentacle was it Aleister Crowley's mandolin?

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## Jim Garber

There is a long time thread on oddities. Search for that word.

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## Jim Garber

Yes here it is: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...ddities/page18

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## Tavy

That's truly horrible IMO, I mean what were they thinking of?  Sorry, just can't get past the look of that one!  :Frown:

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## Beanzy

Italian communist party mandolin?

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## crisscross

Ok, I don't know, whether my new to me Guriema Calace 67/3 qualifies as "of note", but to me, it is a nice mandolin, that I recently bought used for 1/3 of the new price on ebay.
That is, it's hard to find new Guriemas these days in stores.
To me, it is a typical German bowlback and I don't know why it's called "Calace".
The sound of this rosewood bowlback is darker than the sound of my Jacob maple bowlback and I'm thinking about changing the flatwound strings against roundwound ones to add some high end sparkle.

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derbex

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## Tavy

Looks nice: just a word of warning - when I just looked up the Guriema web site, AVG antivirus went into full spasm mode identifying all kinds of malware on their site  :Frown:

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## Jim Garber

It has been some time since we added to this thread. I always wanted to acquire a bowlback by Umberto Ceccherini and I finally got one. Sad but for some reason the seller had their repair department overspray the bare finished top. Oh well, the price was right and the condition was relatively good.

Interesting was that the label was A. E. Sutton but otherwise it was similar to other Ceccherini importers with double soundboard.

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Bruce Clausen, 

brunello97, 

Scot63, 

tkdboyd

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## vkioulaphides

Lovely! Looks very much like the one I used to own. Mine had a curious intonation issue, an oddly high second fret. I got to temper it down somewhat by leveling the fret. In any case, mine had been obviously re-fretted after the original, factory-setup, so this in no way reflects on what _your_ Ceccherini sounds like.  

Enjoy it!

Cheers,

Victor

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## Martin Jonas

Very nice!

A few interesting details different from most.  Most obviously, the label.  I haven't seen any "for A.E. Sutton, Tunbridge Wells".  All I've seen had Alban Voigt as the "sole agent" (!), which would suggest yours was made either before or after the exclusive deal with Voigt was in place.  My guess would be after.  I've seen those aluminium headstock decorations before on a 10-string Ceccherini I briefly owned.  That was also the only one I have seen with a two-piece metal nut like on yours.  These are normally cut from a single piece of metal.  The bridge saddle may need a look.  The metal insert should not be notched but smooth -- string spacing is provided by the wooden spacers behind the saddle.  Looks like somebody who didn't understand how these bridges work lowered the action by deepening the notches in the wood as well as the metal.

As Victor has said, there is a curious intonation issue with many of these -- with the open strings in tune, the fretted notes on the first few frets are sharp.  I found that I had to move the nut by about 1.5mm towards the first fret to correct this.  There is an old thread on the Cafe with details.

Enjoy the Ceccherini, and welcome to the Club!  We currently have four Ceccherinis in our ensemble, and the owners all love them. Looking forward to your impressions once you've had a chance to play. 

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, Victor and Martin. My long-ago-sold 1901 DeMeglio 1A had the same zero-fret nut and a similar bridge (see below) .

The tailpiece has only 4 posts which may indicate an older mandolin, or else just an older tailpiece. I will look through the 45 or so jpeg examples I have. I don't recall any import label except for Alban Voight. I will search more closely.

The same headstock decoration also appeared on my DeMeglio as well.

Martin, I would love to see what variants there are on your and others Ceccherini bridges. It looks like mine may be original but that someone messed it up.

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## Jim Garber

I did find one other example of a Ceccherini with a A. E. Sutton label. This one was from ebay in 2007 but has an 8-post tailpiece.

Hmmm... I looked at the photo of the label and this might be the same one a the one I now own. There is also a couple of scratches on the headstock and some hairline cracks on the tuner buttons that look to match as well.

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## Jim Garber

I may try restringing it with Dogal Calaces (my favorite for old bowlbacks) and see how it plays. I do re call that I bought a few gauges of brass rods that worked for the DeMeglio saddle, assuming I can find them and can probably replace the notched one. 

Worse to worse I could order one of Dave Hynd's DeMeglio repro bridges which look to be the same style. Come to think of it I may have ordered a few of those from Dave years ago.

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## brunello97

> ..... Come to think of it I may have ordered a few of those from Dave years ago.


I'd look around in the closet a bit, Jim.  There's probably a Ceccherini or two lying around that you ordered from Dave along with those bridges.  :Wink: 

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> I'd look around in the closet a bit, Jim.  There's probably a Ceccherini or two lying around that you ordered from Dave along with those bridges. 
> 
> Mick


Mick, maybe I need your help. Can you come over soon?  It is a very frustrating closet. There is a banjo in it I want to revisit but I can't reach it. I think i have to sell or give away about 10-12 instruments in order to get near it.  :Smile: 

Jim

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brunello97

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## brunello97

Jim and Martin's posts bring to mind some lingering questions I have about Ceccherini and DeMeglio and mandolin design and marketing in the late '90s.  I know we have talked about this on and off over the years.

Any further thoughts on the source of Ceccherini / DeMeglio similarities at least in many of their details? These are clearly far outside those of the main three design models of their era: Vinaccia, Calace and Embergher.

I know there have been a number of "Sistema DeMeglio" mandolins and examples of what have been called "clones" but it isn't clear at all where they might have come from given the quantity of output from DeMeglio.   

If DeMeglio had a "sistema" that was clonable how is this any different than the stylized versions of V, C and E mandolins that were churned out in Naples and Catania?  Why not a "Sistema Ceccherini" if they were the more celebrated mandolins of the day?  Maybe given the DeMeglio output they were the big player to attach your marketing scheme to.

Did DeMeglio actually make anything?  Were they just piano dealers who marketed mandolins that were made by a "system"?  Why are there two lines of DeMeglios and two separate serial numbering schemes on virtually identical instruments?

The DeMeglio label trumpets the "Casa" being founded in 1800.  The earliest date I have in my files for an instrument label is 1893.  Something makes me think that folks were propounding that UC had models out _before_ that.

I realize that the UC are an upgrade on the DeM quality (if not _quantity_) irrespective of the double-top design.    Both seemed geared towards the export market.   

Were DeMeglios mass-market attempts to build on (some) of the Ceccherini developments?

Were Ceccherini high-end attempts to build on the DeMeglio developments?

Given the curiosity of the design details it is hard to imagine there wasn't some type of connection / communication at some point in time.

One builder loaded (overloaded) his labels with promotional information and warnings to imitators.  The other had limited information: no address and limited use of any numbering scheme.  UC's label touts an 1881 award.  That is pretty early for examples of his work, isn't it?

One would assume Vogt must have sent labels to Italy for UC to include and then sign.  

A lot of questions, I know, but I thought I'd bang them out in one post rather than many.  We need a dedicated Ceccherinis of Note thread.

I really have enjoyed the design features of both these mandolins.  I know Martin gets fussy  :Wink:  about comping the Ceccherinis over the somewhat clumsy (read unnecessary) flourish of the DeM attempts at flourish.  

It is the body shapes, headstocks, and the great tulipwood round-over that I really enjoy from a design perspective.   If the DeMeglio serial numbers are to be believed they pulled this off on over 20K instruments.  Not bad.

I've owned a number of DeMeglios and have enjoyed them.  Never a Ceccherini.   I look forward to it.  Maybe if Jim is serious about having me over to help clean out his closet I might find one!

Mick

PS  Walking home after I wrote this, I had a thought:  would it be plausible that Ceccherini had a relationship with DeMeglio (similar to Rafael Ciani's at Schmidt or Pava Knezevic has at Ellis now) to market mandolins under their own name in a way that didn't compete with the main firm?

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## Jim Garber

I wish there were as robust a means to search for European patents as Google Patents are for American ones. I always wonder what the De Meglio patent covered... was it the side sound ports or the bridge or the cast zero-fret nut or what?

Mick, I thought you had a Ceccherini and that I was one of the few members of the Royal Society of the Bowl who didn't have one. Yes, I do love the tulipwood round-over, as you call it.

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## derbex

Glad you have joined the club Jim, that's a good looking example, I particularly like the headstock. 

Mine is strung with the Dogal Calace's I might try the Fisoma Consorts next, but it does like the Dogals.

John (Tavy) ended up making a new nut for mine to get it to intonate properly, and the bridge appears to be the same as the one in your 2007 picture.

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## Tavy

Got to love a Ceccherini - still my favourite bowls I think.

I don't think I've seen that label before, like Jim, I suspect it must be a later date: if you get a chance to peek inside, is the internal resonator full length (sound hole to tailpiece) with 4 circular holes in a diamond pattern?  That's the layout I associate with (assumed to be) later Ceccherinis, and the better sounding ones too IMO.

Mick's correct about the intonation too: nut always seems to be way off, very strange!

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## Martin Jonas

> Thanks, Victor and Martin. My long-ago-sold 1901 DeMeglio 1A had the same zero-fret nut and a similar bridge (see below) .
> 
> The tailpiece has only 4 posts which may indicate an older mandolin, or else just an older tailpiece. I will look through the 45 or so jpeg examples I have. I don't recall any import label except for Alban Voight. I will search more closely.
> 
> The same headstock decoration also appeared on my DeMeglio as well.
> 
> Martin, I would love to see what variants there are on your and others Ceccherini bridges. It looks like mine may be original but that someone messed it up.


Jim,

The link to my old discussion on correcting the intonation of my Ceccherini is here:

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...out-intonation

I'm attaching the photos from that thread here for reference.  As you can see, the nut is a single piece of metal where a De Meglio (and your Ceccherini) would have two.  It's worked in such a way that it acts boths as a string spacer and as a smooth saddle, in effect a zero fret, all within 3mm or so.

The photo of the bridge below has a bone insert which I fitted myself in order to be able to add compensation.  I have since then returned to the straight non-compensated metal saddle -- I use Fisoma Consort strings with a wound A, so compensation isn't really required and the metal saddle is part of the Ceccherini tone.  I still have the bone saddle in the case, and it's a five minute job (plus retuning) to swap saddle out although I don't tend to do that.

The bridge construction is the same as on De Meglios, except that the round metal saddle is a bit thicker diameter and made from German silver, not brass.  Yours is clearly original but has been messed with.  As the saddle is round, you should be able to simply turn it around, notches downwards, and use the smooth side as saddle.  However, I suspect this will raise your action quite a bit.  The better way of lowering the action is to take wood away from the ledge on which the saddle sits, rather than filing the saddle down or indeed taking wood from the bottom of the bridge (as one would on a Gibson one-piece bridge).  I think a previous owner has already lowered the action a lot on yours: the string downholder hooks aren't holding anything down as the strings are sitting well below their level.

Attachment 17902Attachment 17903Attachment 17904

Martin

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Jim Garber

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## Jim Garber

Hi Martin: Thanks for all that info. I think that the prior owner mostly destroyed the bridge AND saddle. And it also doesn't look like the bridge is actually fitted properly to the top anyway -- You can see light under it.

I wish John Maddock lived down the street or that it wasn't so dangerous or expensive to send this to him for a proper set up.

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## derbex

Oh dear : https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/electric-...n/142630318256

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## tkdboyd

I think there is a German blues player who uses an electric bowlback? He had a recording on the Yank Rachell tribute album nearing a decade ago. I'll have to look it up.

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## Jim Garber

> Oh dear : https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/electric-...n/142630318256


No one will know what you are talking about in a month or so when this auction is over. Here is a sample of this electrified bowlback (of note?)

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DavidKOS

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## Bob A

Wow, just wow. If I'd seen that years ago, I'd have hit it like a shark in a feeding frenzy.


I know, it's a sickness. But like Stan Jay used to say, "GFAO"*

*Go find another one.

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## Jim Garber

> Wow, just wow. If I'd seen that years ago, I'd have hit it like a shark in a feeding frenzy.
> 
> 
> I know, it's a sickness. But like Stan Jay used to say, "GFAO"*
> 
> *Go find another one.


I think I will go find another one rather than that one. It looks like some creative luthier took a DeMeglio mandolin and put some contemporary electronics into it. I would hope that the top was caved in or something like that. It w0uld be a shame if this was originally a good playable mandolin. OTOH I love those dark-stained bone tuners.

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## Christopher Stetson

> "I would hope that the top was caved in or something like that. It w0uld be a shame if this was originally a good playable mandolin.


I hope so, too, but I've learned from my ebay sojourns that you can't save every bowlback out there!

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## Jim Garber

Christopher do you own a Stetson bowlback?

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## Christopher Stetson

I do, Jim!  Actually two, but one is currently unplayable with very high action.  The other is very nice, I'd say near presentation quality, and good tone.  I'm technology challenged, but I'll try to get a photo.  I was very disappointed, however, to learn that "cousin" J. F. apparently didn't actually exist as we commonly understand the term.  My info is that he was just a brand name of Lyon and Healy.  Therefore I suspect the nice one is Larson Brothers.  The other, I'm not so sure.

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## Christopher Stetson

Hi, everyone.

In case you all haven't seen it already, this popped up on ebay USA:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1895-Hutchi...19.m1438.l2649

Unfortunately I can't afford to be a collector in this fashion, even though I live 20 miles from Springfield, MA where this was made so long ago, but I thought someone here might want to give this historical curiosity a good home.  I'll cross-post in the ebay section.

Best to all, and keep playing.  -Chris.

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## Jim Garber

For historical purposes, here are some pics from the eBay listing. From all the photos I have of Hutchins instruments, it seems like they always made with all-metal. I think these stayed together  better than other brands with the wooden tops like those made by Merrill. Those often seem to have problems esp with the top attachment.

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brunello97

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## Wiggans

Hi All,
I recently bought this mandolin at a local auction for £35. Apart from what Ive learned via Google over the last few days I know little or nothing about mandolins.



Any information much appreciated

Regards

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## Jim Garber

Post a photo of the bowl and the back of the neck. I assume the bowl is rosewood or maple. I never heard of this particular maker but there were quire a few in Napoli in that era. OTOH it is also possible that it was made for a retail store by another maker.

It is hard to tell from the one photo, but it looks to me like someone varnished the top and possibly the fretboard. The second photo is of a sleeve guard and it might be something that a player bought after he or she got the mandolin.

Are there any other labels inside? Is there more info on that label? Many of these Italian mandolins were imported into the UK back then too and often there is the label for the store.

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## brunello97

I have an example of a Giovanni Montana mandolin in my files.  But unfortunately not one from his fratello, Giovanni "Joe" Montana, who went into another line of work.

_Molto Vinacciano_ in its styling.

Whether GM was the actually maker -- or just the labeler -- is up for debate.  The Queen Victoria sleeve guard suggests a clever UK trageted marketing strategy.  "Giovanni Montana" might have been part of that.

I agree with Séamus...  post some more photos!

thanks,

Mick

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## Wiggans

Hi again,
Thanks guys for the replies
Yes the front and fretboard have been varnished unfortunately.
There are no other labels or details other than that shown. The label is much plainer than other labels i've come across.

As requested, more photos .....








Thanks again

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## Jim Garber

It looks like it is in pretty decent shape but I do guess that the back was refinished or oversprayed as well as the top. I do like the tulipwood border on the back, common for htese Napoli mandolins. 

Still it might be a nice player. The usual caveat which you will find countless times on this thread is to use light or even ultralight strings. I am not sure what is available in the UK but GHS A240 are the fallback and if you want to splurge, I like Dogal Calace Dolce RW92b. Fisoma Consort  or Optima strings are also good. 

It looks like whoever fixed it up used a metal rod saddle for the bridge. If you like the sound, that would be fine, but if you want a different sound have a bone saddle installed.

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## Wiggans

Hi Jim
Ordered GHS A240 strings (8 against the current 10) which should help playability (if not my ability to play! 8). Strings seem very high to me, 4.5 mm at 12th fret although neck appears to be straight. Thinking about making a new, lower bridge to lower the action and maybe fitting a new nut to lower strings further.
I wonder if you'd care to suggest what year the mandolin was made and also its possible value? (I know, its worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.)  :Wink: 
Oh and I checked out your soundcloud stream - wow! nice stuff on there. You are obviously a very capable player!
Derek

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## Wiggans

Regarding the tenuous Victoria link ....
The book 'The Classical Mandolin' by Paul Sparks mentions ..

... maybe I've got Princess Alice Mary Maud's mando!!!
regards

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## Jim Garber

> Hi Jim
> Ordered GHS A240 strings (8 against the current 10) which should help playability (if not my ability to play! 8). Strings seem very high to me, 4.5 mm at 12th fret although neck appears to be straight. Thinking about making a new, lower bridge to lower the action and maybe fitting a new nut to lower strings further.
> I wonder if you'd care to suggest what year the mandolin was made and also its possible value? (I know, its worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.) 
> Oh and I checked out your soundcloud stream - wow! nice stuff on there. You are obviously a very capable player!
> Derek


Thanks, Derek. 
You might wait until you get the lighter gauge strings. You could just sand down the bottom of the bridge to lower the action, tho the brass rod saddle looks a bit thick. You could try a smaller diameter possibly. Does it fret OK in the upper frets?

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## Wiggans

The bridge is possibly original and rather brittle so I wasn't comfortable trying to adjust the intonation with the heavier strings currently on it as the bridge may have broken. I should be able to fashion a simple bridge to check how well the mandolin functions once the new strings are on. My problem is this is the only mandolin I've ever got my hands on so I have nothing to compare it against. I'm more at home with a Telecaster  :Wink:

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## Bob A

Let me respond to your opening post in the VIntage section, regarding comparison among bowlbacks. 

I have made an effort to assemble a collection of these instruments, with examples from Italy, Greece, Germany and the US. They range from about 1890 to the mid-1920s.

As a general rule, the Italian instruments tend toward a bright and sparkly treble, with a somewhat diminished bass response. The larger and heavier the bowl, the more bass. The Salsedo, Mozzani, Monzino and Vinaccia instruments are lighter in construction, with some being incredibly light in weight, on the very edge of seeming too fragile to tolerate the tension of the strings. This is illusory, as the subtle arching of the top creates a very strong structure, so long as all parts remain intact. With many having survived well into the hundred-year-old category, I assume reasonable care will see these performing well toward their second century.

Giuseppe Vinaccia provided me, posthumously, with a mandolin of smaller size, nearly as light as the above-mentioned, which is all sweetness and delicacy. I have two Ceccherini instruments, both with the double soundboard for which they are known. One is monstrously ornate, the other a more normal level of finish and furniture. They both have the distinctive chime-like tone that I've come to associate with this maker. I'm extremely pleased to report that their tonal characteristics and playability are on a par with one another, which supports my belief that Italian makers put forth a reasonable effort to provide a quality player's instrument even at the lower price points. I salute them for this.

A Calace in my possession is a much more sturdily-built instrument, with a large bowl and generally heftier timbers. Its tone tends more toward gravitas than sparkle, which is not to detract from its worth. I have a Monzino & Figli example from 1907 with a very large bowl and a 14" scale, the only such instrument I'm acquainted with of that size from Italy

The Roman-style Italians, most notably the Embergher mandolins, are sophisticated in their graceful lines, lined with spruce shavings rather than the paper seen on most others, possessed of narrow fingerboards varying in thickness from bass to treble to assist fingering, and tonally quite different from any of my other instruments. Some like it, some do not.

My sole German mando was a Konrad Wolki signature model, with the scalloped ribs and Roman-style design elements. It had a somewhat smaller soundhole than I would expect, and a fine mellow midrange tone.

My modern Greek bowlback is a structurally different animal, a different species altogether. With a walnut bowl, which I've not seen elsewhere (which is not to deny their existence) and a completely different top geometry, it does not utilise the Italian arching of the soundboard for strength, nor the cant to increase pressure on the bridge. The board is thich in comparison to the Italians, yet it narrows significantly at the edges where it is glued to the bowl, and reminds me of the structure of a loudspeaker cone, which is stiff centrally, but flexible at its edge. Sonically it is not far from Italy, as is geographically reasonable, I suppose.

To cross the ocean, American bowlbacks seem to be more heavily-constructed than the best (speaking only of my preference, of course) Italians, they seem to project fewer overtones, while having a strong aural presence. That is, they can be louder than you'd suspect. The best of them, which include the high-end Vega mandolins (especially the vaunted Pettine Special model) are concert-quality performers, and "efficient transducers" (such as my Stahl presentation mando, attributed by the seller, quoted here, to the Larson Brothers), putting out surprising volume. I had only one Martin, which was a fine instrument that I didn't play much, as its very thin neck didn't accommodate my left hand well at all.

It is worth mentioning that the Vega Pettine model was the preferred performance instrument of Richard Walz, who engaged a US luthier (Dan Larson, if memory serves) to copy, in order to have adequate backup instrumentation should his Vega become damaged or worn through overuse. That alone should serve to indicate that the much-neglected US bowlback ican be a worthy porfessional-level instrument, though largely unknown and unappreciated in Europe and Japan.

I should mention Japan as a producer and consumer of mandolins. Ever since Raffaele Calace impressed that nation with his skill as a composer and player in a series of concerts in the Golden Age, the Japanese have embraced the mandolin. They seem to have imported a plethora of Italian instruments over the decades, and produce a number endogenously. (The tools used by the last of the Embergher luthiers, Pasquale Pecoraro, were given to a Japanese luthier to carry on the tradition of that atelier, though I am unaware of any of his instrumetns.) I have not played any of the modern Eastman bowlbacks, so cannot comment. The earlier production of Suzuki mandolins, however, tended to be over-built and under-performing, in my experience, and that of some others here.

That's about all I have on the topic, or at least all that comes to mind (such as it is). Hope you find it of some use.

Let me add a link to Richard Walz playing some Beethoven on his Pettine. Try not to let it discourage you . . . 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O70ajArdsY4

----------

Bruce Clausen, 

brunello97, 

tkdboyd, 

Wiggans

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## Jim Garber

Here's an interesting one from Germany (according to the seller) — *Carl Ruchmich*. I love the outlandish peghead design.

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## Beanzy

Here’s something I hadn’t come across before; porcelaine mandolin prototype from Max Freyer & Co., Meissen 1900

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brunello97

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## Martin Jonas

> Here’s something I hadn’t come across before; porcelaine mandolin prototype from Max Freyer & Co., Meissen 1900


That is most disturbing.  I guess it would have to be Meissen!

I wonder whether this was a display model rather than a working instrument.  It certainly isn't strung up to pitch now and I wouldn't think porcellain could withstand the string tension or the vibrations.

Martin

----------


## Beanzy

I don’t think it’s as delicate as that Martin. 
I had a late friend who used to make engine blocks and bearings for fire engines & armoured cars using it.

----------


## Jim Garber

Is that a secondary soundhole at the end of the fretboard?

----------


## Beanzy

It looks like the fretboard was made with an extension, but the slot was made to have a square one slid in. I assume they designed it to slot in from the front.

----------


## brunello97

Viz Martin's question, I wonder if there is any internal bracing, and if so would they also be made of porcelain?

We're working on some cast porcelain pieces in the shop right now from CNC produced molds.  The idea of making a mandolin this way never crossed my mind.

Mick

BTW for those of us less familiar here's from the Wikipedia article on the city of Meissen:

Meissen is famous for the manufacture of porcelain, based on extensive local deposits of china clay (kaolin) and potter's clay (potter's earth). Meissen porcelain was the first high-quality porcelain to be produced outside of the Orient.

The first European porcelain was manufactured in Meissen in 1710, when by decree of King Augustus II the Strong the Royal-Polish and Electoral-Saxon Porcelain Factory (Königlich-Polnische und Kurfürstlich-Sächsische Porzellan-Manufaktur)[3] was opened in the Albrechtsburg. In 1861, it was moved to the Triebisch river valley of Meissen, where the porcelain factory can still be found today. Along with porcelain, other ceramics are also manufactured.

----------


## Beanzy

I think people’s impression of its delicacy comes from the fact that, because of the inherent strength, makers took it to incredibly fine thicknesses. That’s where the prestige lay, showing the extreme. However the bevel on that prototype seems to suggest that there was a decent bit of depth to the top on that one even before any bracing, if there was bracing copied over from a wooden design then it could have been a pretty robust structure. I’d love to see inside, but couldn’t find any pics on the auction site.
https://www.invaluable.com/catalog/8...ies=PXSPMZLSE5

----------


## Martin Jonas

I agree that porcelain has a lot of strength if it's thick: the insulators on high voltage power lines are made from it.  However, if you want it to vibrate and be acoustically active, it has to be thin.  Note the characteristic ping when you hit a spoon or fingernail on a thin cup, which you won't get on a thick mug.  I still think that the elastic properties (or lack thereof) will be all wrong for an acoustically active instrument.

Martin

----------


## Beanzy

I think theres probably a good reason why its a propotype, but it might be no less strong or resonant than a large tureen or vase.
If youve ever knocked the ladle against one when empty youll know how long they can ring for & how loud they can be. I think like the eggshell the secret of its strength in resisting string tension would lie in the curve of the back. As the top doesnt seem to be canted too much I suspect the tension there is mostly straight through.

----------


## bstanish

I'm not sure if this counts as a bowlback of note, but I thought that I would throw it in here anyways. I recently picked up a W.A. Cole bowlback in Vancover, BC. It's in pretty decent shape, some cracking that seems like it could be repaired.  I put a set of Calace by Dogal (Dolce RW92B) on it and they seem to be working out well. It plays nice, has good action (~2mm @12th fret), and a nice sparkly sound.



I'm not sure why the photos are sideways, so my apologies for that.

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS

----------


## brunello97

Very nice looking mandolin.  I use those Dogal strings on my bowlbacks as well and also like them a lot.

If I'm not mistaken,  WA Cole was one of the Boston makers that later coalesced into the Vega company.  And many of us here are Vega mandolin fans as well.

Yours is, indeed, a bowlback of note.

Mick

----------

bstanish

----------


## Tavy

Minty Vinaccia on eBay

Crazy asking price, but it sure is pretty...

----------

Christopher Stetson, 

KristinEliza, 

tkdboyd

----------


## Jim Garber

That seller, leuterius, has quite a pile of bowlbacks and he is persistent on listing them over and over for pretty much the same price, tho occasionally he lowers it a bit once in a while. That is a beauty tho.

He has a violin by Carlo Columbo Bruno from Torino (I have a Roman-style mandolin  by that maker) that he has listed for $13,000.

----------

Christopher Stetson

----------


## tkdboyd

The action looks impossibly low. It certainly is a stunning piece.

----------


## vic-victor

Lovely instrument, but not necessarily by Vinaccia. The fabric linings (or perhaps textured paper?) do not look like original Vinaccia's plus the label has been re-glued by the look of it, possibly during the restoration, but who knows?

----------


## Jim Garber

You could be right, Victor. OTOH, with later Vinaccia like this one, I have seen all sorts of oddities. For instance, I have even seen some Roman style Vinaccias.

----------


## vic-victor

Yes, I remember that one. Also not 100% sure of it's originality though. This one could well be by Vinaccia, but a re-glued label will always cast the shadow of doubt, unfortunately.

Here is another oddity from Russia, unlabelled. Has Vinaccian style tail buttons. But it will be a very bold speculation to suggest it is a Vinaccia, even though they made the ones with the oddly shaped soundholes at some stage. Likely to be either German or from Catania, I think.

----------


## Tavy

Overpriced but certainly very pretty one on eBay UK

----------

brunello97, 

Christopher Stetson

----------


## Christopher Stetson

Then this one?  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mandolin-P-....c100011.m1850

----------


## Christopher Stetson

> You could be right, Victor. OTOH, with later Vinaccia like this one, I have seen all sorts of oddities. For instance, I have even seen some Roman style Vinaccias.


What would you say about this one?  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mandolin-P-....c100011.m1850

----------


## Beanzy

I just realised I had missed putting this late 1800’s copy of an early 1800’s Vinaccia mandoloncello in this thread for posterity.
Apparently it went for €3000 at auction recently. The information I got was unclear as to whether this was by Vinaccia too or not.

----------


## vic-victor

The one by G. Monte, Napoli.  When too much is too much...

----------


## Bob A

What is seen cannot be un-seen. Alas.

----------


## Jim Garber

It has been awhile posting to this thread. The seller of this *1963 Pecoraro 5bis mandolin* bought it at an estate sale. It looks like it is in fine condition and would be excellent for a soloist who likes the Roman style. As usual, no financial interest on my part. I would consider it myself if I were especially flush, but I am not.

----------

Bill Clements, 

Bob Clark, 

Bruce Clausen, 

brunello97, 

Dave Fultz, 

Martin Jonas

----------


## brunello97

Nice instrument, James.  Any thoughts on the asking price?

Mick

----------


## Matt Vuksinich

The listing says $4900, which I would think is an excellent price--"they" say these are every bit as good as those made by Embergher.  Were it not for the fact that I bought a 2014 Hendrik van den Broek 5bis two years ago, I'd be all over this one.

Matt

----------

brunello97

----------


## Dan Cohen

Any idea what this old bowlback is?  Unfortunately this is the only picture that I have. It is my neighbor’s in NY who says that it was her grandmothers.

----------


## Bob Buckingham

I got my grandfather's bowl back from my cousin last year. He gave up playing after going into the Navy in 1917. She did not know what it was but it was in its original case and had strings I put on it thirty years ago. It's a long story.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Any idea what this old bowlback is?  Unfortunately this is the only picture that I have. It is my neighbors in NY who says that it was her grandmothers.


Hey Dan:
I think it is made by or for Lyon & Healy but probably one of the budget lines at best American Conservatory but likelier wholesaled out  for retailers. Pickguard is very similar in shape to Washburns from that period, around 1912 or so.

----------

Dan Cohen

----------


## Beanzy

Looks like someone picked up a very nice bargain on ebay(£124)
By Jerome Thibouville-Lamy posting pics here for posterity

----------

brunello97, 

Martin Jonas

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Nice one.  I wonder, was JTL bringing in mandolins from Italy, or actually producing them in France?  This one looks pretty distinct from the familiar Italian models that we're used to seeing.

----------

brunello97

----------


## Tavy

> Nice one.  I wonder, was JTL bringing in mandolins from Italy, or actually producing them in France?  This one looks pretty distinct from the familiar Italian models that we're used to seeing.


The one JTL I've had pass through here was very distinctively "French" and not at all Neapolitan like.  Very nice though!  In any case I would say they were made in France.

----------

Bruce Clausen, 

brunello97

----------


## Jim Garber

> Looks like someone picked up a very nice bargain on ebay(£124)
> By Jerome Thibouville-Lamy posting pics here for posterity


Interesting, though. It looks like this same one was sold on *eBay UK* in September. Bought for £133. Then it must have been repaired. Look at the 4 small holes on either side of the end of the fretboard as well as two circular holes on the sides of the rosette/soundhole on the early auction. Those were all plugged up. So some work was done on it and the seller actually lost money (a few pounds) on the deal. 



Still, it is a nice mandolin and the buyer got a good one. I wonder if we will see it up for auction another time soon.

----------


## vic-victor

Huh, looks like someone had a pickup installed on in in the past.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Huh, looks like someone had a pickup installed on in in the past.


Quite possibly.

----------


## Tavy

Interesting aluminium bowled mandolin on eBay at present, no makers name but the seller suspect German origins:

----------

brunello97

----------


## brunello97

I can't recall seeing these side holes before, though I should be doing a little more searching before posting this:
_I Fratelli Albertazzi._

Can't say I much like the holes, but overall a pretty nice looking mandolin: maple bowl, curious headstock.

The neck looks to be in fairly playable condition.

Mick

----------


## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE=Tavy;1683492]Interesting aluminium bowled mandolin on eBay at present, no makers name but the seller suspect German origins:

The U.S. Department of Defense is soon coming up with a _titanium_ version of this model. Sales for civilian use may be limited, though.  :Laughing: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

> I can't recall seeing these side holes before, though I should be doing a little more searching before posting this:
> _I Fratelli Albertazzi._
> 
> Can't say I much like the holes, but overall a pretty nice looking mandolin: maple bowl, curious headstock.
> 
> The neck looks to be in fairly playable condition.
> 
> Mick


I actually like the snaky soundport holes. At least these Albertazzi boys while learning in the Vinaccia shop decided to make something a little different. That zero fret looks a little odd. I wonder if something is missing there. 

Here is the only other Albertazzi mandolin I have in my files. More Vinacci-esque to my eye. The neck on the current one is much different esp with the zero fret.

----------

brunello97

----------


## vic-victor

Here is another Albertazzi:

----------

brunello97, 

Jim Garber

----------


## Jim Garber

Hah, Mick! I did a search for Albertazzi mandolin and *your earlier post* on this thread came up indicating you were interested  in 2008 probably in the one I posted above.

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Jim!  Ha, is right.  Likely no more on that one than a desultory bid, for sure, as Martin J calls them.  

By the looks of all three, Fra'lbertazzi made some nice mandolins.

It looks like the zero fret itself is missing on the current Al'tazzi.  Shouldn't be much of a fuss to replace.

I guess it's time for another desultory bid.  :Wink: 

Mick

----------


## Tavy

What nothing for 2 whole months?  :Wink: 

Nearly new Pandini on eBay UK: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183600758903?ul_noapp=true

----------

Bruce Clausen, 

brunello97, 

DavidKOS

----------


## brunello97

Yum.  Scalloped maple bowl.  Mille grazie, John!  Happy New Year to y'all!

Mick

----------


## bstanish

I had a happy find today.  I just got this 1919 Calace a few hours ago. I don't know much of it's history but I'm happy to see that it's previous owner had strung it up with some unknown brand of light strings. I have since replaced it with a set of Dogal Calace RW92 Dolce. What a wonderful full sounding instrument and very playable up to the end of the fretboard extension (even if I have to fret it with my fingernail).  Here are some (sideways) pictures:

----------

brunello97, 

Jim Garber

----------


## Jim Garber

> Yum.  Scalloped maple bowl.  Mille grazie, John!  Happy New Year to y'all!
> 
> Mick


Every Pandini I ever played was scallopped including mine, now long gone.

----------


## brunello97

> Every Pandini I ever played was scallopped including mine, now long gone.


Was yours maple, too, Jim?  Like that gorgeous (unscalloped) Calace that bstanish just posted?  What a classic!

Maple bowls...

Iirc your Embergher is a _rosewood_ bowl, vero?  I love the rosewood LEs.  

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Was yours maple, too, Jim?  Like that gorgeous (unscalloped) Calace that bstanish just posted?  What a classic!
> 
> Maple bowls...
> 
> Iirc your Embergher is a _rosewood_ bowl, vero?  I love the rosewood LEs.  
> 
> Mick


Yes, here is my Pandini:


Yes, you are correct that my 1904 Embergher N.3 has a BRW fluted bowl. Here is a reprise of its front and back:

----------


## brunello97

> Yes, here is my Pandini:
> 
> 
> Yes, you are correct that my 1904 Embergher N.3 has a BRW fluted bowl. Here is a reprise of its front and back:


Thanks, Jim!  I know I'm an iconoclast when it comes to Embergher design love, but I think yours is sublimely wonderful.  

This model doesn't look like it has that distinctive LE subtle recurve at the bowl / neck confluence, but all the elements come together into a lovely whole.  Gorgeous mandolin!

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Thanks, Jim!  I know I'm an iconoclast when it comes to Embergher design love, but I think yours is sublimely wonderful.  
> 
> This model doesn't look like it has that distinctive LE subtle recurve at the bowl / neck confluence, but all the elements come together into a lovely whole.  Gorgeous mandolin!
> 
> Mick


According to my friend and LE expert, it was very likely completely made by the master himself since at the relatively early time he may have been the main maker with maybe one acolyte. Also he worked on the upperend instruments. Also this is early, pre-1907 when they had the symmetrical scratchplates and this was an orchestral instrument. The soloist models have a slightly larger body and possibly a more pronounced recurve in the neck area. I know about you and the Larsons but didn't know about your iconoclasicism (right word) for LE's work. Is this a new thing? You must be getting older. When we met years ago I don't think you developed these tics.  :Smile:

----------


## Bruce Clausen

> Iirc your Embergher is a _rosewood_ bowl, vero?  I love the rosewood LEs.


Lovely stuff, all three (Pandini, Calace, Emberger).  Didn't realise you're no longer a Pandini man, Jim.

A nice Emberger no. 2 (1930) just showed up on the Cafe ads today.  Nearby and tempting. Is that model also fluted?  But nut width is 15/16", so probably not for me.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Lovely stuff, all three (Pandini, Calace, Emberger).  Didn't realise you're no longer a Pandini man, Jim.
> 
> A nice Emberger no. 2 (1930) just showed up on the Cafe ads today.  Nearby and tempting. Is that model also fluted?  But nut width is 15/16", so probably not for me.


No flutes until N.3 and the soloists. there are N.4's but those are generally custom 3's. I believe most Emberghers have those narrow but radiused necks/fingerboards. It is the Roman style and was sort of imitative of the violin. They are not all as weird as they looks tho, do take some getting used to. OTOH they are not for everyone even among us bowlback aficionados.

----------

Bruce Clausen

----------


## brunello97

> I know about you and the Larsons but didn't know about your iconoclasicism (right word) for LE's work. Is this a new thing? You must be getting older. When we met years ago I don't think you developed these tics.


I am getting older, Jim.  But I've been fussy, twitchy (and over-opinionated) about LE's work around here for a long while.  And people have been justifiably ignoring these opinions for an equal period of time.

FWIW (little), I've long felt that LE's (later) work on the higher end model was a dog's breakfast of unrelated design elements. This is obviously no reflection on the sound or playability.....  The 5 bis are more of a design hash than even the Gibson F-5s, which however jumbled, hold together better to my design eye.  

I know I'm swimming against the tide.  So was the little kid who said the Emperor had no clothes.... :Wink: 

Your model, however orchestral, is a much finer, more integrated looking overall design.  

To my eye.  But what do I know?

Mick

----------


## Bruce Clausen

> The 5 bis are more of a design hash than even the Gibson F-5s


Thanks for that thought, Mick. I'll certainly agree with you about the F-5.  A monstrosity.  :Disbelief:  

And henceforth I'll be looking at the Embergers with new eyes.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I am getting older, Jim.  But I've been fussy, twitchy (and over-opinionated) about LE's work around here for a long while.  And people have been justifiably ignoring these opinions for an equal period of time.
> 
> FWIW (little), I've long felt that LE's (later) work on the higher end model was a dog's breakfast of unrelated design elements. This is obviously no reflection on the sound or playability.....  The 5 bis are more of a design hash than even the Gibson F-5s, which however jumbled, hold together better to my design eye.  
> 
> I know I'm swimming against the tide.  So was the little kid who said the Emperor had no clothes....
> 
> Your model, however orchestral, is a much finer, more integrated looking overall design.  
> 
> To my eye.  But what do I know?
> ...


It is especially interesting since the two finest 5bis Emberghers I have seen and played were both made in the 1940s by Domenico Cerrone after Luigi passed away. I guess I am used to seeing these and fine them quite pleasing to my eyes but then again what do _I_ know?

BTW the main thing i do dislike is that cartoon dragon they put on the N.6. 

BTW If you think that the 5bis is a design hash, what about the dreaded Cetramadami? I don't think i have actually seen an actual instrument but no doubt they existed and I think commissioned by a customer. I don't think we can completely blame LE for making one only agreeing to do it for the cash. Had to feed those bambinos.

----------


## Jim Garber

Ah, here is an actual photo of the Embergher Cetramadami mandolin on this *auction site*. 

Yes, I know it is not a bowlback.

I love this description of the design as cubist, though I am not sure why the description calls this cetramadami a 5bis (except for the neck). I will have to look in Ralf and Barry's book and see what they say.




> Luigi EMBERGHER fut toujours à la recherche d’esthétiques particulières et de sonorités spécifiques. Il propose dans son catalogue de 1925 cette extravagante mandoline cubiste (modèle 5bis). Il est possible que ce modèle n’ait pas trouvé grâce auprès du public, ou bien que la situation politique n’ait pas encouragé Luigi à persévérer et à en fabriquer de nombreux exemplaires. Toujours est-il que cet extraordinaire modèle, en parfait état de jeu, dans sa boîte d’origine, reste une pièce si rare que les auteurs du livre consacré à ce grand luthier n’ont pas réussi à trouver un seul exemplaire pour illustrer leur ouvrage.
> 
> Translation:
> Luigi EMBERGHER was always looking for particular aesthetics and specific sounds. In his catalog of 1925 he proposes this extravagant cubist mandolin (model 5bis). It is possible that this model did not find favor with the public, or that the political situation did not encourage Luigi to persevere and to make many copies. Still, this extraordinary model, in perfect condition, in its original box, remains a rare piece that the authors of the book dedicated to this great luthier failed to find a single copy to illustrate their work.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is the explanation in the Embergher catalogue from 1925 (from Ralf and Barry's book _The Embergher Mandolin_.




> Questo strumento è stato construito organicamente con i criteri tecnici del Cav. Luigi Embergher, su disegno prospettico del Prof. Aldebrando Madami. — Differisce dal mandolino soltanto nella forma, ed ha una maggiore dolcezza di suono che lo rende più gradito all'udito.
> 
> Translation:
> This instrument has been organically constructed with the technical criteria of Cav. Luigi Embergher, based on a perspective design by Prof. Aldebrando Madami. - It differs from the mandolin only in the form, and has a greater sweetness of sound that makes it more pleasing to the hearing.


From *Luigi Embergher* Wikipedia page:




> 1925 Mandolin sold by the Vichy Enchères auction, described as Model 5A "Cubist".[1] This model never became a success and this is the only known example. During the 1930s, Italy's fascists introduced the concept of Degenerate art, a movement that condemned Futurism. The political upheavals were enough that Embergher had to shut down most of his business, including that which made this work of modern art. Photo by Jacques Henri Bayle

----------


## Jim Garber

> Thanks for that thought, Mick. I'll certainly agree with you about the F-5.  A monstrosity.  
> 
> And henceforth I'll be looking at the Embergers with new eyes.


Emberghers are certainly an acquired taste. I never would tell someone that they are the way to go. I know too many players who have given over to other styles.

----------

Bruce Clausen

----------


## bstanish

> Was yours maple, too, Jim? Like that gorgeous (unscalloped) Calace that bstanish just posted? What a classic!
> 
> Maple bowls...
> 
> Iirc your Embergher is a _rosewood_ bowl, vero? I love the rosewood LEs.  
> 
> Mick


I wasn't really too fussy about what wood my bowls were, but I have to admit now I think I am a fan of the maple bowls. The Calace has a much nicer range from warm to bright compared to my W.A. Cole. 

I'd love to hear Jim Garber's 1904 Embergher N.3, if is sounds half as good as it looks...

Perhaps a bit off topic for this thread, but when I was digging around the case for the new bowlback, I found this set of strings and I was wondering if anyone might be able to roughly date the packaging.



Bradley

----------


## Jim Garber

It may not be the wood of the bowl but the difference in construction of your Calace vs. your Cole. Those are pretty recent strings. D’Addario still sells them tho probably packaged differently. If you really want to know how old they are contact D’Addario. They do change their packaging every year or so. Keep the Dogals you have. IMO those are the best strings for your Calace. I don’t like flat wounds on Italian bowlbacks.

----------

bstanish

----------


## bstanish

> It may not be the wood of the bowl but the difference in construction of your Calace vs. your Cole.


True enough. Apparently the Cole is built with some unique patented method.  Basically thin T shaped strips of wood between each rib to connect them.  



> Keep the Dogals you have. IMO those are the best strings for your Calace. I dont like flat wounds on Italian bowlbacks.


Definately.  I will probably venture out and try a couple others brands including some flatwounds just for the fun of it, but Im pretty much sold on the Dogals

----------


## brunello97

> BTW If you think that the 5bis is a design hash, what about the dreaded Cetramadami?


Reminds me of what one of my architect amigos, Juan Rois, from Rosario would occassionally say "Tu diseno me duele mis ojos." loosely translated as "Your design hurts my eyes."

At least the CetraM is _funny._  And in the upright position it is easier to use that silly headstock as a beer bottle opener.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Here's an interesting one on *etsy*. It looks like a DeMeglio without the sideports but the seller says it is labelled Carl Rickmich. I found a couple of violins by this maker and one guitar around 1900.

The wild headstock shape is especially of note. It reminds me a bot of a flatworm head.

----------

brunello97

----------


## brunello97

Jim, it looks as if you posted a link to this same Ruchmich mandolin almost eleven months ago.

No takers, I guess.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

How can I remember what I posted. I have to set up an Excel spreadsheet. Nah no takers at that price.

----------


## brunello97

> How can I remember what I posted. I have to set up an Excel spreadsheet. Nah no takers at that price.


"Presentation Grade" mandolin for the King of Platyhelminthia.

Mick

----------

Jim Garber

----------


## PlayerOf8

I found a nice instrument from the hand of John Erickson during his time working for Vega. Rings like a bell!

----------

brunello97

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice, PlayerOf8: I think that is a style 1, early 1900s. Fill me in on who John Erickson how you know he worked on it. More photos, please, too. There was a style 2 on eBay recently that looked in great shape and it went for very little money. Pictures below.

----------


## PlayerOf8

John came from Sweden to Boston around 1908 -9. He worked for Vega while he apprenticed with violin maker Walter Gross . In 1914 he moved to Chicago to take a job at Lewis and Son. In 1925 he established his own shop in Hammond Indiana. I met him in the late '60s. When he passed away, I was able to purchase many items from his shop, including a mandolin mold stamped #1. I purchased my fist bowl back from John in 1970. Same model as I posted earlier. He showed me a marking he used to put on the back of the peg head. Thew new one has the same marking.

----------

brunello97

----------


## brunello97

Here's a link to an auction site with a short blurb about JE and a photo of one of his violins.

Thanks, Po8....one more tiny bit of information falls into place.

Mick

----------


## PlayerOf8

The model #1 had a plain headstock , no inlay around the sound hole, no inlay on the scratch plate and the tailpiece cover was not engraved. All models after that had  fancier headstock design, inlaid scratch plated, engraved tuner covers and tailpiece covers. The best models had bound finger boards and fancy inlay markers. I owned a model that had MOP around the edge of the table. 
Somewhere around here I have a 1915 catalog.

----------


## PlayerOf8

Vega Model#1

----------


## Jim Garber

PO8: what was the mark on the back of the headstock. Do you have a photo? I have a copy of a Vega catalog undated but prob around 1910.  I will post some scans.

----------


## brunello97

Until Jim can get his catalog photos up, here is a slightlier fancily appointed Vega No. 1 from an undated catalogue.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Until Jim can get his catalog photos up, here is a slightlier fancily appointed Vega No. 1 from an undated catalogue.
> 
> Mick


I think that is from the same era as my catalog pages. I will have to scan. Even the #1 mandolins were nicely ornamented. My Vega 3 is one of my favorite bowlbacks. Whoever got that #2 from ebay recently, assuming it is in good structural shape, got a real bargain.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here are the pages from my copy of Vega catalog from my friend's collection. He says it is undated but he says 1910-1915 so it may be the same one that PO8 has. I have a feeling that specs change for various models over the years. This is why i thought the mandolin that PO8 posted was a style 1.

----------

Bruce Clausen

----------


## Jim Garber

Here the photos of my trusty Vega style 3. I know they are somewhere in this long thread but I am lazy. I also have two Vega Pettine models from that same era. 

I would love to know what John Erickson's mark looked like. Is it under the gear cover? I am very curious.

----------


## Bruce Clausen

That's a beauty, Jim!  Nice photos too.

Seems like a good moment to mention this model 4 that's been for sale for quite a while hereabouts:

https://www.usedvictoria.com/classif...dolin_32000384

(Not mine of course.)

----------


## Jim Garber

> That's a beauty, Jim!  Nice photos too.
> 
> Seems like a good moment to mention this model 4 that's been for sale for quite a while hereabouts:
> 
> https://www.usedvictoria.com/classif...dolin_32000384
> 
> (Not mine of course.)


I am not sure why the seller says it is a style 4. At least from my catalog info (above) it looks just like a style three. The style 4 has alternating pearl pieces on the outer border. 

Here are some pictures of that Canadian one.

----------

Bruce Clausen

----------


## PlayerOf8

Here is a very nice example of a model #4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p170eg_7BQ

----------

Jim Garber

----------


## Graham McDonald

A rare octave mandola (in the European usage) by Danish mandolin builder Yngve Barslev made in Copenhagen
Copenhagen in January 1943, with serial no 43

Here are some measurement and info:
Overall length 790mm
Body length 387mm
Body width at cant 273mm
Body depth ~150mm
Nut to 12th fret 236.5mm / 9 5/16
Nut to E string saddle 472mm/ 18 9/16
Fretboard width at nut 28.5mm
				12th fret 43mm
Fretboard thickness ~6mm, radiused
27 frets. 11 to body join
Neck thickness without fb at nut 18.5mm
						7th fret 28.3mm
Soundboard spruce, two pieces(?) joined under e strings, not book matched 3.5mm (?) thick
Soundhole 87x59mm with black/cream/black/cream binding, all 1.5mm wide
Soundboard bracing three transverse braces ~12mm x 6mm, above and below soundhole and on the cant.
Body binding 1.5mm x 5mm cream binding and 1.5mm black purfling
Body Mahogany (?) 26 ribs including two wide ribs 55mm wide at cant. Other ribs max 14mm wide with 1mm maple (?) strips between. 2mm fluting on all narrow ribs
Neck 2 piece mahogany with WBW veneer laminates in middle

Cheers

----------


## Jim Garber

That’s a beauty, Graham– like a sports car. Is it yours? Do you have more photos? Do you have photos of other instruments by this maker?

----------


## Graham McDonald

Belongs to a member of the local mandolin orchestra and he found it in a antique store in Adelaide. I have taken quite a few photos. There is a small Danish school of mandolin builders which continued through most of last century as I discovered when I made contact with a dedicated guitar collector in Denmark. Here is a photo, that is in the book, of a mandolin by Pedar Stocholm who started the Danish school and Barslev was one of his followers. I will put some more of the mandola up this afternoon. Just realised I have another Barslev mandola pic in the files. Here is that one as well

Cheers

----------


## Jim Garber

Ah, I have seen this maker's works before. Check out *this thread*.




> [Please excuse the spelling mistake in the title. I can't seem to edit it. Can anyone else? A hopefully forgivable spelling mistake from an Edinburgher!]
> 
> I've just bought this from our very own Margriet. It will give me a good idea of what is involved in playing an Embergher-style instrument. It will take a week or so to get to me. 
> 
> Luthier: Yngue Barslev 
> Year: Not sure, but it looks like the luthier did some work on it in 1972
> Provenance: For three decades, it was played in the  Hamburg Mandolin Orchestra
> Condition: very good

----------


## Graham McDonald

I am thinking that perhaps the extension on the head was broken off at some point. The mandola has suffered some damage in its life and there is the signature of a 57 year old Croatian repairer in Adelaide and a 2003 date (I think that is what it says) on the inside of the soundboard. That suggests that the soundboard may have been removed for repair, but it has been put back very cleanly and neatly.

----------


## brunello97

I recently bought a very modest Umberto Ceccherini from the Ebay.  Not many Italian bowls at all show up on the US ebay so I took a ringer.  It was cosmetically banged up but the neck looked good which was why I dove in.

After quite a bit of I'm-No-Tavy top repair I strung it up and it sounds as delightful as expected.  Great neck per le miei grandi mani. 

However, John and Jim, David and Martin and y'all know what it is like stringing up a bowlback to pitch for the first time after repairs.  All that dynamic, lightweight construction and minimalist designed counter forces coming into play and into ear as you slowly creep from C# up to D up to....

It happens with my archtops, too, for sure, but with a lot less drama.  Or fun.

We had friends over for dinner tonight and I pulled out the UC to show them and play a pit over coffee.  My friend, who is a sailor and has restored a few wooden sailboats for his family was totally fascinated by the Ceccherini and my resurrection story. 

He said "That sounds like what I go through the first time I raise sail on newly ready boat and the wind commences blowing."

If only.

Bowlback love just grows stronger.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I finally found *my Ceccherini* on this thread—it is easier than finding the actual mandolin, but, in any case, it saves uploading the same pics again.

In any case, it looks like someone bollixed up the bridge which is why it just sits there unplayed. What a shame! Especially now since  I must travel to see Mick so we can play Ceccherini duets.

----------


## brunello97

> I finally found *my Ceccherini* on this thread—it is easier than finding the actual mandolin.....


Now _that's_ funny, Jim.  

Your UC is ever more refined and detailed than the modest one I just acquired (pictures forthcoming).  Don't know whether mine is an early model, junior model or practice model for Umberto, Junior.  

I do need to change out the bridge (as it is a decent replacement) to something more in the line of the string-separator-with-bone / brass bearing.  Getting deft at making one of these myself wouldn't be the worst thing for me.

The string spacer / zero fret at the nut is of one piece, which is a nice bit of fussy work from the UC folks, which may not be for the better.  My hunch is that the two piece setup, like on yours, allows for more careful profiling of each component in the assembly.  

Very nice sounding mandolin, nonetheless.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

I'm a bit surprised that this LE from 1888 hasn't shown up here (or maybe it has previously.)

Pretty interesting for me to see the proto-bowl profile and how clunky it is, given the gracefulness of LE's mature work. Of course, there's the wooden tuning pegs.  

The early label is also muy coolioso, I think.  A pity that there is so much reflection from the camera flash.

Mick

----------

DavidKOS, 

Tavy, 

vic-victor

----------


## Jim Garber

*1779 Johannes Vinaccia Mandolone*

I especially like the music sheets attached to the back of the bowl. I wonder what piece that is. Mght have to try playing what I can see of it.




> MANDOLONE VINACCIA 1779 - restored by Blanchi in 1896 as for 2 internal signature (see the photos)
> The back is of course original Vinaccia as for some decoration of the top
> Very rare and important instrument
> Size: Total Length 115 cm - String Length - 78 cm
> I am selling it as I found, not stringed; probably Mandolone strings could be used in this instrument

----------

Bruce Clausen, 

DavidKOS, 

Scot63, 

tkdboyd

----------


## GrandpaBenny

I'm not conversant in how to post but I wanted to ask the community if they have any knowledge about a mandolin my grandfather left me a while back.  I will try to add pictures of it.  I do not know much about mandolins so any help is appreciated.

The inside label says "A. Galiano" and "Chitarre e Mandolini".  My grandfather brought it with him from New York when he moved to Los Angeles.

Thanks.

----------


## Jim Garber

Some discussion on Galiano on this *old thread*.

BTW this is not a bowlback mandolin but we can answer your questions nonetheless. Galiano was likely a distributor. That mandolin almost looks like an oval hole version that could have been made by the same company that made Strad-0-Lin mandolins, decent budget-priced instruments. Galiano was located in New York.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## pav

> Some discussion on Galiano on this *old thread*.
> 
> BTW this is not a bowlback mandolin but we can answer your questions nonetheless. Galiano was likely a distributor. That mandolin almost looks like an oval hole version that could have been made by the same company that made Strad-0-Lin mandolins, decent budget-priced instruments. Galiano was located in New York.


Dear Jim Garber,

My friend Eric Renshaw suggested that you are the authority on early mandolins... I have a "milanese/lombardic" mandolin (bought from Pagano's music shop in Edinburgh some 40 years ago) . It has no makers sign or label, and two unusual features
A - peghead has a violin-type scroll rather than the usual "square block"
B - a double-layer body, with dark (rosewood?) ribs in the usual "head-to-tail" direction, and a lining of light (spruce?) wood strips in a left-to-right direction.

Any suggestions on possible makers? I could send you some photographs if that would be useful.

Peter Verity
Edinburgh

----------


## Bruce Clausen

New on the Cafe classifieds today is this Antonio Grauso mandolin:



It's a new name to me, and a nice looking instrument.  Have we seen anything else by this maker?  Apparently he was an immigrant from Naples working in NYC in the early 20th century.  

The ad links to a video by the owner (an infrequent poster here), where the playing and the instrument both sound very good.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Jim Garber

Grauso also lists on his labels as a disciple of Luigi Ricca. Grauso mandolins are generally nice instruments.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## brunello97

Here is an example of a label from AG where "Naples / New York" is noted.  This is the one I'm most familiar with. 

For no verifiable reason, I had AG down as an importer / dealer rather than a maker...but if as Jim suggests he was working with Ricca that would change that.   Do you have a label image, Jim, where he cites Ricca?  That would be cool to see.

From one of Sheri Mignano's compilations I also have note of him as a "publisher".

I don't have her book handy so hopefully she might see this thread and weigh in on what she knows about AG.

Mick

----------

Bruce Clausen, 

DavidKOS

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is a better version of the label you show, Mick. and the next one has "disciples of L. Ricca" with the date of 1895 so that might be used on only the earliest examples.

Grauso does say that his shop are makers but i think  we have seen that bending of the truth on other distributors. OTOH I think the disciples notation might mean something. I assume it was a way to get some street cred for AG as a maker. Ricca obviously trained a few others. 

Biggio was another maker who even copied the style of the Luigi Ricca's labels and called himself the "first disciple." (see attached).

----------

Bruce Clausen, 

brunello97, 

DavidKOS

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is one of the fanciest Antonio Grauso mandolins I have seen. It was sold by Lark Street Music about 12 years ago or so.

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS

----------


## Mandophile

Yes, Grauso worked for and with Ricca before he opened his own shop on Grand. My Grauso says Napoles and New York.
He went back to Naples a few times as his business grew.  "Guitar Heroes" inspired my book and the Ricca-Grauso connection
is in it.  https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a3fpy2nnk...G89Zac0Da?dl=0   you can download the book.
Grauso's brother was also a luthier but apparently had a separate shop.

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

tkdboyd

----------


## brunello97

> Here is a better version of the label you show, Mick. and the next one has "disciples of L. Ricca" with the date of 1895 so that might be used on only the earliest examples.
> 
> Grauso does say that his shop are makers but i think  we have seen that bending of the truth on other distributors. OTOH I think the disciples notation might mean something. I assume it was a way to get some street cred for AG as a maker. Ricca obviously trained a few others. 
> 
> Biggio was another maker who even copied the style of the Luigi Ricca's labels and called himself the "first disciple." (see attached).


That's a great photo, Jim, but actually of a slightly different label design.

I love the use of "disciple".   A lot deeper than the more common "allievo".

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> That's a great photo, Jim, but actually of a slightly different label design.
> 
> I love the use of "disciple".   A lot deeper than the more common "allievo".
> 
> Mick


Yes, you are correct, that is a different label with some illustrated ribbons. I don't have any examples of that label in my files.

----------


## Jim Garber

*Modern Embergher 5bis copy* by Dietrich at Bernunzio. I am unfamiliar with this German Shop.

Looks like this is the page on their website showing *mandolins*.

Here are pics from Bernunzio's site.

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Eugene, 

mandoisland, 

tkdboyd

----------


## mandoisland

I did not know that they also made Embergher copy mandolins. Here's a picture from the instruments exhibition at the Eurofestival in Bruchsal, Germany 2018.

This is another one showing a flyer on the table with an Embergher style mandolin head...

----------

brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

tkdboyd

----------


## tkdboyd

That looks like an outstandingly beautiful divorce!

----------


## Valbert

There's an Embergher in Germany for sale right now:

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-...45466-74-19761

----------


## Jim Garber

> There's an Embergher in Germany for sale right now:
> 
> https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-...45466-74-19761


1927 Tipo B student model. Price is reasonable and it looks like it is in decent shape though is almost looks a bit too shiny especially on the bowl. It could have been refinished or oversprayed. From what I can tell though you have to pick it up locally in Germany.

----------

Valbert

----------


## Valbert

Yep, it says that it has been restored, including a new bridge and a fret dressing. If I had the money and the time right now, I'd travel there and get it. Not too far away from Austria...

----------


## vic-victor

Two Embergers 5bis on ebay (NFI)
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Mandoline-vo...6/202794102820
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Concert-Mand...1/264354699362

----------

Jim Garber

----------


## Bill Foss

I've had my eye on this Rafaele Tieri for a long time on Lowell Levenger's site. I've always been reluctant to purchase it because it has some cracked ribs. However after playing it during an approval period I was convinced it was the bowl back for me. Beautiful tone, workmanship and the cracked ribs are very stable (they actually help me keep it upright on my lap when I play it). It did not come with a case, and it has been difficult finding anything that fits. It's 9" at its widest and all cases so far are 8". Any ideas? It deserves a good case.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I've had my eye on this Rafaele Tieri for a long time on Lowell Levenger's site. I've always been reluctant to purchase it because it has some cracked ribs. However after playing it during an approval period I was convinced it was the bowl back for me. Beautiful tone, workmanship and the cracked ribs are very stable (they actually help me keep it upright on my lap when I play it). It did not come with a case, and it has been difficult finding anything that fits. It's 9" at its widest and all cases so far are 8". Any ideas? It deserves a good case.


That is very cool, Bill. I remember that one and probably also avoided it because of the ribs. It looks like someone say on it.

Let me think on the case possibilities.

----------

Bill Foss

----------


## Dexterecus

I've made a post about this in a different section of the forum, but I decided to take my chances here as well: 

I bought a used Suzuki bowlback last week from a guy that claims he got it as a gift but doesn't play it. It looks quite new and hardly played and to my amateur ears sounds and plays quite well. All in all I'm very happy with my purchase, but I am wondering about the instruments background. 

The model is Suzuki MR-300 and for the life of me, I can't find any information about it online. Do any of you know anything more (when it could have been built, which kind of wood, ...?). 

Here are some pics:

----------


## Tavy

I think Suzuki have been building fairly similar looking mandolins for a very long time.  None of them are valuable, some of them do sound perfectly reasonable, but some of the older ones have rather bendy necks.  Yours looks in rather minty condition, so I would just enjoy it for what it is and pick the heck out of it  :Smile:   I would assume it to be a fairly new build (by which I mean the last 30 years or so), beyond that, who knows? !

----------

brunello97

----------


## Valbert

My 1926 Calace just got an older sister...  :Smile: 
This one is from 1923. Has a crack on the top that needs to be repaired, otherwise no issues.

----------

Bill Foss, 

DavidKOS, 

Denman John, 

tkdboyd

----------


## Jim Garber

Valbert: I had one of those "hole-in-the-head" Calaces a few years ago. A very nice mandolin. Congratulations on your new one.

----------

Valbert

----------


## Tavy

Nice!

----------

Valbert

----------


## Bill Foss

Valbert, where did you find such a beautiful instrument? I dont see the crack, it must be a hairline.

----------

Valbert

----------


## Valbert

Thanks! I found it in an online ad, and luckily it was just a two hour train ride away  :Wink: 
The crack is right underneath the g string. It actually goes all the way from the tailpiece to the bridge.

----------

Bill Foss

----------


## Bill Foss

Now I see it. The beveling of the fretboard extension is very attractive. Congratulations!

----------


## Eugene

Quite lovely, Valbert.

----------


## Tim Logan

Hello - 
   I posted some questions about an Embergher orchestra 2 on the Vintage Mandolins forum - if anyone on this thread has some familiarity with them, could you possibly help with my questions please? Thank you.

----------


## brunello97

> Hello - 
>    I posted some questions about an Embergher orchestra 2 on the Vintage Mandolins forum - if anyone on this thread has some familiarity with them, could you possibly help with my questions please? Thank you.


You're in the right place.  We all would like to buy an Embergher.




Mick

----------

Tim Logan

----------


## Valbert

Got the crack fixed now on my 1923 Calace. Here's another pic  :Smile:  Sound-wise, this one's quite different to my other Calace. Definitely brighter (maybe cause of the bridge material), more sustain, a little less bass. Still needs to be played in, it has been resting in its case for many decades and has never been played.

----------

brunello97, 

Denman John, 

Dusepo

----------


## Jim Garber

Valbert, what strings do you have on your Calaces?

----------


## Valbert

> Valbert, what strings do you have on your Calaces?


Right now I have the Thomastik medium strings on them. They've been on the first Calace I bought for many years as I was told, and they didn't seem to have harmed the instrument at all. Compared to my other Bowlbacks, the Calace mandolins seem to be built a lot sturdier. I'm still closely observing if they have any negative effect on the instruments. I did some research and I have also tried the Dogal Calace strings, but for my taste they were too bright, not that well-balanced and didn't stay in tune like the Thomastik strings. Plus, they corroded really quickly. The Thomastiks seem to last very long, so the higher price doesn't really bother me.

----------


## Jim Garber

It is certainly a matter of taste but I prefer the bright sound of roundwound strings and prefer them on bowlbacks. I only use Thomastiks on my Lyon & Healy. Personally I would go for the lighter gauge for the Thomastiks even on Calaces. I don't recall the vintage ones being heavier built. The modern ones seem to be sturdier, at least the ones I have played.

----------


## Eugene

The corrosion issue is weird, not what I'd expect of carbon steel.  I use Dogal's "Calace" brand steel pretty exclusively on Neapolitan-type mandolins.  Mine can see heavy use for more than a year and not corrode.  They start weird, twangy, perhaps a little imbalanced, but I think the play in pretty quickly and then maintain tuning and balance quite well.  I do recognize that each player and instrument is to some degree different.

----------


## Jim Garber

I do know that some people have corrosive sweat on their hands and there is little you can do about it except wipe your hands and the strings. I, too, have never had that problem with the Dogal Calace strings either.

----------


## Valbert

Yeah, I do have very aggressive hand sweat. But perhaps I wasn't very specific before: it's mostly an issue with the plain a and e strings - even if I clean them thoroughly before and after playing, they just turn black and sound dead after just one or two weeks. It's the same with all my guitar strings (except the coated Elixirs). With the mandolin Thomastiks, what I also forgot to mention, is that I use Hannabach e strings instead of the Thomastiks from the set, as recommended by Caterina Lichtenberg. I don't know why, but even after a lot of playing, the Hannabach plain e strings stay clean and shiny (they've been on my Calace for about 5 months now). Maybe they have some anti-rust coating as well.
I'll probably experiment with other string sets again, and maybe also try the Dogal Calaces one more time.

Anyway, getting back to topic, there's a 1891 Vinaccia for sale in in Germany:

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-...883955-74-3194

----------


## Jim Garber

That Vinaccia is erroneously mentioned as Raffaele. I think seller misread Fratelli. Also it is pickup only on Germany.

----------


## Jim Garber

Valbert: I wonder if stainless steel strings help with the corrosive sweat problem or if there is some sort of hand lotion that will counteract the effect. I am sure you have looked into it. Just curious.

I did find this medical article. Of note:



> Of the two types of metal studied. corrosion was much more severe on the type having the lowest concentration of copper, thus confirming that increasing copper concentrations have a positive effect in reducing corrosion rates.


Sounds like phosphor bronze or brass strings would corrode less and the article also mentions frequent hand washing.

----------

Valbert

----------


## brunello97

> Anyway, getting back to topic, there's a 1891 Vinaccia for sale in in Germany:
> 
> https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-...883955-74-3194


The mandolin that launched a thousand Vegas....

Mick

----------

Dusepo

----------


## Eugene

> The mandolin that launched a thousand Vegas....


And then some.

----------


## Dusepo

> Got the crack fixed now on my 1923 Calace. Here's another pic  Sound-wise, this one's quite different to my other Calace. Definitely brighter (maybe cause of the bridge material), more sustain, a little less bass. Still needs to be played in, it has been resting in its case for many decades and has never been played.


I've seen many classical players use those type of plectrums. Do they have a name? I'm curious to try one.

----------


## Valbert

> I've seen many classical players use those type of plectrums. Do they have a name? I'm curious to try one.


It's a "Wolle" plectrum, made in Germany. For me, they work really well as they produce almost no pick noise and make the strings sound a bit mellower. I think they're intended to be used with flatwound strings. The material is some sort of rubber/plastic mix, thick but still flexible.
As of now, they seem to be sold more or less exclusively here: https://schneidermusik.de/shop1/prod...65/language/en

They come unpolished and with sharp edges though, so you need to sand them down and polish them yourself to a preferred shape.
I got mine via Trekel, they offered to sand them down and polish them before shipping for a little extra charge, but unfortunately they had to shut down their business.

----------

Dusepo

----------


## Jim Garber

Those picks are perfect for the mellow sounds the German school players prefer along with the Thomastik strings. Just the opposite of Italian styles of playing. Matter of choice and taste of course. The German bowlbacks are voiced with that aim as well.

----------

Dusepo, 

Valbert

----------


## Dusepo

Thanks both! Wolle means wool btw, but I doubt they're made of wool. Perhaps a brand name or a reference to the softer sound (compared to other plectrums).

----------

Valbert

----------


## Peter K

"Embergher" in this eBay UK listing's title triggered my mandolin scouting network. 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-M...4AAOSwGYNd9tzE

However, as it turns out, that was a mandolin ( or a mandola)  that someone though it resembled an Embergher. Either way, that looks like an interesting instrument, and might turn out to be a great player. The maker is Nicolo Ulcigrai (Italy) who was apparently a violin luthier of some renown.  Born in Trieste in 1893, and continued to make violins into 1970s. In 1931 Ulcigrai moved his shop to Venetian_ sestiere_ Cannaregio, next door to the Museum of Natural History on Canal Grande.

----------

brunello97

----------


## brunello97

Beautiful piece of top tonewood on the mandolin.  
Wondering if the seller might do better by offering them individually.  The mandolin might draw some interest.

Mick

----------


## Peter K

> Beautiful piece of top tonewood on the mandolin.  
> Wondering if the seller might do better by offering them individually.  The mandolin might draw some interest.
> 
> Mick


Indeed, the mandolin (or mandola ?) looks well made, uniquely yet well styled in a sort of a modern way. I'd like to think that a _liutaio_ whose bread and butter product are violins, would have to be on top of his craft, also having a delicately honed ear re instrument acoustics, be they violins, cellos or mandolins.

----------


## Dusepo

> "Embergher" in this eBay UK listing's title triggered my mandolin scouting network. 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-M...4AAOSwGYNd9tzE
> 
> However, as it turns out, that was a mandolin ( or a mandola)  that someone though it resembled an Embergher. Either way, that looks like an interesting instrument, and might turn out to be a great player. The maker is Nicolo Ulcigrai (Italy) who was apparently a violin luthier of some renown.  Born in Trieste in 1893, and continued to make violins into 1970s. In 1931 Ulcigrai moved his shop to Venetian_ sestiere_ Cannaregio, next door to the Museum of Natural History on Canal Grande.


I think that one on the left is a tambura, rather than a mandolin.

----------


## brunello97

> I think that one on the left is a tambura, rather than a mandolin.


Yes...that's what the Ebay listing has it as: tambura.  

Mick

----------

Dusepo

----------


## Dusepo

> Yes...that's what the Ebay listing has it as: tambura.  
> 
> Mick


Serves me right for not clicking on the actual listing  :Grin:

----------


## Peter K

That Ulcigrai mandolin keeps calling me, but the darn tambura would be a deal breaker from the standpoint of subsequent resale. While the bowl back mandolin market is near dead in Canada, I'd say the local demand for tamburas ought to be practically non-existent.

The mandolin headstock scroll appears really well carved, I guess as only a violin maker would do it. Looks like the bridge as well as the nut are missing. Alas, the former would obviously be impossible to recreate without seeing the original bridge, which is probably very unlikely, since I do not recall ever seeing an Ulcigrai mandolin before.

Incidentally, the family name Ulcigrai is also very interesting as it does not have a pure Italian origin, but possibly Slavic. According to one source, the Ulcigrais originated in the town of Izola (Isola d'Istria in Italian) in today's Slovenia, where they could be traced back to the XV century. During the end-of-WWII upheaval in Istria, the Izola's Ulcigrais moved to Trieste, joining the Ulcigrais who had settled there in older periods of time.

----------


## Jim Garber

Peter: the label was originally printed Trieste and then crossed off and Venezia written in. I think it is a mandola tuned octave, not a mandolin. The proportions look wrong for a mandolin. It looks heavily made but that may just be a wild guess. I write to the seller to ask a few questions and could go see it in person. I don’t need it at all but it is an interesting instrument by a violin maker but I only see a handful of his violins and they go for maybe $500-2000 in auctions. Not extremely valuable. If you are dying to pursue it I would step aside and share what I find out. 

I have a 1970s Calace mandola which is currently tuned CGDA. Last time I played it was in Aonzo workshop for Brandenburg— fun stuff.

----------

Peter K

----------


## Peter K

Thank you Jim. I have also asked the seller if she'd consider splitting the sale, before I'd pursue mandolin condition related questions. I agree with you that we could be looking at an instrument more robust than a conventional mandolin. If the FB is straight and the bowl apron end looks healthy, who knows, I might try an offer.

----------


## brunello97

I have a couple bowl-dolas in the posse, one bearing many of the -ahem- _Larson traits_ that we enjoy quibbling about.  
It does share the relative top proportions viz the cant position that the Ulciagrai instrument does.  
Simply getting a dimension from the seller should verify such speculations.

Mick

----------

Peter K

----------


## Jim Garber

> Thank you Jim. I have also asked the seller if she'd consider splitting the sale, before I'd pursue mandolin condition related questions. I agree with you that we could be looking at an instrument more robust than a conventional mandolin. If the FB is straight and the bowl apron end looks healthy, who knows, I might try an offer.


Hi Peter: I assume you know that in the description she says "USA only, PayPal from verified buyers only. NO RETURNS, Please ask all questions before buying.These Instruments come from a smoke free pet free home."

I have not heard anything from her yet. I also asked if she would sell the mandola separately. 

I have been trying to get my dog to stop smoking but it is not working. Oh well...

----------

Peter K

----------


## Peter K

> Hi Peter: I assume you know that in the description she says "USA only, PayPal from verified buyers only. NO RETURNS, Please ask all questions before buying.These Instruments come from a smoke free pet free home."
> 
> I have not heard anything from her yet. I also asked if she would sell the mandola separately. 
> 
> I have been trying to get my dog to stop smoking but it is not working. Oh well...


Jim, my eBay listing says she is shipping to Canada too via the Global Shipping Program. However, as far as "no returns" goes, you are correct there. 
Listen, why don't you try to switch your pooch to ganja smoking.....that would be better for his/her health, and the smoke is much more pleasant smelling than tobacco.

----------


## Jim Garber

Peter:
I heard from the seller:

The fifth fret is missing and also the nut. The measurement from the missing nut to the 12th fret is approx 9 1/2 inches. (Therefore the scale length is 19 inches—definitely a mandola with octave tuning preferred.
She would allow local pick up in my neighborhood should you bid on and win this auction but she didn't mention me coming to take a look in person. And she says she won't sell the Mandola separately. They will be sold as a set only.

----------

Peter K

----------


## Peter K

Thanx Jim, I've got basically the same answer from the seller.

----------


## Jim Garber

I think she will realize that few people want both instruments at that price. I don't get why sellers feel a need to bundle their unrelated items. She added the two higher estimates to get $1300 for both but even at the lower end estimate ($900) it might be a hard sell. I don't think she sells instruments very often.

----------

Peter K

----------


## Peter K

> I think she will realize that few people want both instruments at that price. I don't get why sellers feel a need to bundle their unrelated items. She added the two higher estimates to get $1300 for both but even at the lower end estimate ($900) it might be a hard sell. I don't think she sells instruments very often.


Quite so. Based on my modest mandolin selling experience, I'd have a hard time selling that mandola for $700* fully restored*, but if I did, that would mean that I'd have to pay no more than about $300 for her instrument the way it stands now in order to break even.
(That's assuming the restoration would cost me $400, which could be very optimistic too, because when buying mandolins on eBay like that, they are in a worse shape than presented, more often than not.)

----------


## Peter K

This lebel-less mandolin seems to be getting a bit of attention on eBay UK, perhaps because it has some superficial characteristics of earlier (19th c.) Calaces.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Very-nice-v...oAAOSws~BeEggR

The tuning machine could be Calace, although it appears more recent because of its good preservation. The tailpiece, the pickguard outline and the headstock shape would also fit the Calace provenance.

The bridge not so, IMO. 

One problem with those early Calace attributions is that their mandolins show considerable variation in style and detail. However, my guess would be that the subject mandolin was built by some unknow luthier no more than 100 years ago in the style of Calace.

l also suspect there could be some issues with that mandolin neck and fretboard beyond of what the listing pictures are showing.
What we do see is the following:
* A couple of tuning buttons are poorly done replacements.
* The third fret bar is oddly skewed. I see some repair hacks doing that sort of thing, but not the Calace workshop.
* One bowl stave separation crack has been glued/filled with something that could be epoxy.....if so, that "repair" would not be easily repairable.

Lastly, even if this mandolin was a bona fide Calace, who'd ever believe you in the absence of a Calace label ?

----------


## brunello97

If this ever showed up on Jeopardy when I chose "Italian Mandolins for $400, Alex!" my answer (in the form of a question) would be 
"What's NOT a Calace mandolin?"

My hunch is that it is from the good folks down Catania way. 

The side / neck view ought to scare folks away as much as a lack of pedigree.

Mick

----------

Peter K

----------


## brunello97

> Peter:
> ....The measurement from the missing nut to the 12th fret is approx 9 1/2 inches. (Therefore the scale length is 19 inches—definitely a mandola with octave tuning preferred.


That makes for a pretty appealing bowl.  Replacing the missing fret and nut is pretty straightforward work.

Patience, gentlemen.....  She may likely come around.

Mick

----------

Peter K

----------


## Peter K

> That makes for a pretty appealing bowl.  Replacing the missing fret and nut is pretty straightforward work.
> 
> Patience, gentlemen.....  She may likely come around.
> 
> Mick


She might for sure, because the way her listing stands now, I do not see her getting any action.
Pricewise I'd perhaps go out on a limb for the mandola alone, however, that tambura ballast is the deal breaker. In a way, that is an unfair statement to make because the tambura could be a glorious and valuable specimen in its own right, just that we are not into that music/instrument genre.

----------


## brunello97

On the heels of Peter's mandola-built-by-a-violin maker comes what appears to be another mandolin from violin maker John Wesley Wiseman, whose work showed up about 10 years ago in this post from PD Kirby.

This Wiseman is in poor, but not unrepairable shape.  Like PD's, appears to be a well fashioned instrument, heavily blinged, but nicely so to my eye. A pity so much of the MOP appears missing.  The Ebay add references PD's mandolin.

I wonder if PDK is around to catch this thread?

Mick

----------


## brunello97

A couple of interesting bowls in my morning ebay feed.
The first is from a Neapolitan maker (or labeler) who I haven't yet had an example in my files "G Calzado".
Fairly nice looking fluted bowl and overall appointments.
Bi-lingual label suggests a market in Le Monde Francomando.

Mick

----------


## brunello97

The other is from "Globe" whose products show up now and then.  This one with an interesting label.  
The "Successors to....." preceding _The Italian Mandolin Mfg Co. New York_
reads like an English translation of what we sometimes see in Italian on labels. 
I seem to recall the "The Orphane" showing up once before without photos.
Also a fairly okay looking bowl, with hybrid Italo-Americo appointments. Likely a playable neck provided a proper replacement bridge is installed.

Mick

----------


## Peter K

> A couple of interesting bowls in my morning ebay feed.
> The first is from a Neapolitan maker (or labeler) who I haven't yet had an example in my files "G Calzado".
> Fairly nice looking fluted bowl and overall appointments.
> Bi-lingual label suggests a market in Le Monde Francomando.
> 
> Mick


It's kind of odd that I have missed that one. Could you please give us a link to the eBay listing. (I get excited whenever I see a nice old mandolin without strings :Grin: .... a good sign for sure from the standpoint of fretboard bowing.)

----------


## brunello97

Pedro, I must have been truly tra veglia e sonno when I posted that Calzado mandolin last week. Sorry for that. Usually, I'll plug in the ebay listing.
This was on ebay.fr and looks like it has ended.

Some nice photos in the ad but no good view of the neck.

Mick

----------

Peter K

----------


## Peter K

> Pedro, I must have been truly tra veglia e sonno when I posted that Calzado mandolin last week. Sorry for that. Usually, I'll plug in the ebay listing.
> This was on ebay.fr and looks like it has ended.
> 
> Some nice photos in the ad but no good view of the neck.
> 
> Mick


Thanx Mick, I was searching "Calzado" while the listing title says "Galzado"....no wonder I could not find it.

----------


## brunello97

> Thanx Mick, I was searching "Calzado" while the listing title says "Galzado"....no wonder I could not find it.


Yes, a typo from the seller, I guess.  An interesting name.  Calzado implying "footwear" in Spanish.  
A _calzolaio_ is a shoemaker in "official" Italian.  With Neapolitan all bets are off.  
#6980 (or whatever) implies that he made a few.
Maybe they all wound up in France.

Mick

----------


## Peter K

> Yes, a typo from the seller, I guess.  An interesting name.  Calzado implying "footwear" in Spanish.  
> A _calzolaio_ is a shoemaker in "official" Italian.  With Neapolitan all bets are off.  
> #6980 (or whatever) implies that he made a few.
> Maybe they all wound up in France.
> 
> Mick


The typo could have been worse, if the seller wrote the luthier's name as "Cazzado", or hitting the genuine Neapolitan expression of bonhomie and affection with misspelling "Cazzato".

----------


## brunello97

> The typo could have been worse, if the seller wrote the luthier's name as "Cazzado", or hitting the genuine Neapolitan expression of bonhomie and affection with misspelling "Cazzato".


Now _that's_ funny. 

My wife and I were visiting the lovely little town of Todi some years ago and being a fan of Greek-cross church plans I led us off in search of the local landmark.
I asked a trio of nonnas where we might find the church of "Santa Maria della _Colazione_". 
They were weeping with laughter, but pointed us in the right direction.
We enjoyed a light lunch afterwards.

Mick

----------


## Peter K

> Now _that's_ funny. 
> 
> My wife and I were visiting the lovely little town of Todi some years ago and being a fan of Greek-cross church plans I led us off in search of the local landmark.
> I asked a trio of nonnas where we might find the church of "Santa Maria della _Colazione_". 
> They were weeping with laughter, but pointed us in the right direction.
> We enjoyed a light lunch afterwards.
> 
> Mick


That's a good one. There is much levity and mirth to be had with comparative linguistics, be it inadvertently or with design. :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Tavy

It's been a while since I've posted here... just finished off this Ceccherini, I think this one will stay with me for a while.  Interestingly they all seem to be numbered in the 2000 and something range...

----------

brunello97, 

Cando, 

DavidKOS, 

tkdboyd

----------


## Cando

Lovely Ceccherini you got there but has anyone heard about *the other Ceccherini* :Disbelief:   :Laughing:

----------

Bruce Clausen, 

brunello97, 

vic-victor

----------


## Tavy

How interesting.... no I hadn't come across those before!

----------


## Jim Garber

A mandolin by G. Ceccherini of Roma, definitely of the Roman style with similar neck and headstock to Embergher. The label is interesting. Seems to say that he is successor to Ducci and Associates and most of the label seems to tout that they sell pianos.

The only other one of this maker I can fine was sold by *Bonhams in 2009* and it the one in the middle of this lot of three mandolins. The description reads:




> A Mandolin Labelled G. Ceccherini E.C successori Ducci E Soci casa Succursale G 247 Via Nazionale 248 Roma Gran Deposito Di Piano Forti Di Fabbriche Nazionali..... with pear shaped back, with extended fingerboard over sound hole, and colourful decoration depicting a face with brass instruments and foliage, restorations


A little further searching: I surmise that this is primarily a piano dealer (so was Ducci & Associates) and possibly this mandolin was made for this shop by one of the Roman makers.

----------

brunello97, 

Cando, 

vic-victor

----------


## brunello97

247 Via Nazionale today.  Or last August to be exact.  
Probably not a lot of people walking around there right now.

Mick

----------

vic-victor

----------


## Bruce Clausen

Interesting!  The label lists agents in Germany, plus a London agent Collard and Collard, but the Internet seems to know them purely as piano dealers. So probably a pretty marginal mandolin operation. Nice instrument though, Cando, thanks!

----------


## Bruce Clausen

> Interestingly they all seem to be numbered in the 2000 and something range...


Right John. Mine is no. 2002, on the Italian language label. I thought we had had somewhere a thread on Ceccherini labels and numbers, but can't find it now.

----------


## vic-victor

Super cool Roman C.  and Tavy's one is very nice, too, with fretboard extension, which is rare for a C. Is there a double top?

----------


## Tavy

> Is there a double top? 

Yup.

----------

vic-victor

----------


## Jim Garber

This mandolin deserves to be be in this historic thread.

In the classifieds now an *Embergher N.5* and also on *Reverb*.

I am a bit surprised that this is described as being restored. I am sure that the bowl is structurally sound now, but, sorry, I would not call it restored. It is quite possible that this was a real basket case in which case I would say the repairs were done the best as possible.

I have a 1904 N3 which also had some pretty bad repairs (for instance, wood putty on the fluted bowl) done on it in its long life but I spend a fair amount of money on it and had it completely restored. I know a skilled luthier would charge a lot of money to get something like this like it was when it came from Luigi's shop, so I assume that the owner decided to opt for playabiity. Certainly understandable.

----------

brunello97, 

Eugene, 

Tim Logan, 

vic-victor

----------


## brunello97

Fluted rosewood bowl Embergher.  Very nice, Jim.

Mick

----------


## Valbert

Here's a nice looking Silvestri mandolin - are they any good?

https://www.willhaben.at/iad/kaufen-...920-382619254/

----------


## Bob A

> Fluted rosewood bowl Embergher.  Very nice, Jim.
> 
> Mick


I'm thinking it's actually curly maple, with a dark stain. Lots of chatoyance and curl that seems unusual for rosewood. But old eyes and laptop screens, you know . . .

----------


## brunello97

> I'm thinking it's actually curly maple, with a dark stain. Lots of chatoyance and curl that seems unusual for rosewood. But old eyes and laptop screens, you know . . .


You could be very right, Bob, on second look.  

I've got a new monitor and am wearing my glasses now.... :Wink: 

If that is indeed such figured maple, a pity to stain it.    

Maybe we could entice Jim to post a few more photos of his rosewood back LE just for comparison.  :Wink: 

Mick

----------


## brunello97

Another of Carlo Alabiso's mandolins has turned up on the ebay.
This one has a less ornate headstock / tuner ensemble but appears to feature all the fascinating tuning components as the one Marc posted in this thread a few years back.
Figured I'd move this one over to this thread and link back to Marc's earlier one.
I'm including a number of images for posteriority as this is a fascinating set of inventions.
Makes me wonder if he hacked existing DeMeglios rather than reproducing them simply to overhaul.
Certainly were enough of them around.
A pity the neck is so out of whack.  But maybe playing Hawaiian mandolin with a slide might be appropriate just the same.

Mick

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Jim Garber

This just showed up on *Elderly's website* and in our classifieds. Larson-made Stahl bowlback. It is sold as-is: needs neck reset and set up. With original leather "clown-shoe" case.

Description:



> Here's a very fancy model built by the Larson Bros. in Chicago for Stahl, bent spruce top with oval soundhole, (some deformity on top by soundhole), abalone and wood marquetry top purfling and rosette, Brazilian rosewood skirt and 39 ribs, mahogany neck joins body at the tenth fret, 21 frets, pearl and abalone fingerboard, ivoroid-bound top, fretboard, soundhole and headstock, headstock features pearl floral inlays, inset tortoise plastic pickguard with floral inlays, engraved clamshell tailpiece, inset tuners with engraved cover, ~13-1/4" scale, 1-1/8" nut, ~7-1/2" top width (at widest point), interior label reads "Wm. C. Stahl  / MANUFACTURER  /  Milwaukee, Wisconsin", with rough end-loading "Bullshead" leather OSSC, VGC+ except needs (neck reset, restring and setup, etc. - sold AS-IS

----------


## William Smith

Hello, I have an old 1913 Bowl back by Vega, the # is stamped on top of the Peg head #30451, It has many Brazilian ribs, Can anyone tell me what model this is and what its worth and a fair asking price is? The neck is straight and all finish is original and in perfect condition-no cracks or separations at all! Its a higher end model I believe but I'm not into these and would like some opinions please? I couldn't find how to start a new thread for some reason? It has the original canvass case! This is a time capsule and maybe never used! It's of no use to me even though its awesome and super clean! Thanks for any help!

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Jim Garber

Sorry but just out of surgery and don’t yet feel like starting up the computer. It looks a lot like my style 3 posted in this thread. It is either a 3 or a 2. Will send more info when I have more energy and less pain.  :Smile:

----------

William Smith

----------


## Jim Garber

Post #9 has a photo of my Vega style 3. I have a catalog with pics but I think yours is a style 2.

----------


## William Smith

Thanks Jim but can't find your photo, feel better and let me know when you have the time I just don't want to post to cheap of price as I know nothing about these! The clamshell tailpiece cover is engraved as well as a bit on the end of the base? It has the original harder canvas case also.

----------


## Jim Garber

Sorry, I thought it was in this thread ( could still be) but photo of front is here. Mine loooks like same condition to yours.

----------


## Joe Bartl

Mr. Smith writes that his Vega is from 1913.  How do you date a Vega bowlback?  I have one almost identical to Mr. Smith's.  Its peghead number is 27496.  Is this what you use to date the instrument?  Thanks for your help.

----------


## William Smith

> Mr. Smith writes that his Vega is from 1913.  How do you date a Vega bowlback?  I have one almost identical to Mr. Smith's.  Its peghead number is 27496.  Is this what you use to date the instrument?  Thanks for your help.


Yours is just like mine except mine has an engraved cover clamshell type-Jim thought mine is a style 2? He said he'd find out for sure later, I found a site to date these things on the internet? I typed in Vega serial #'s? Yours is probably a 1912? Do you have any idea what its worth? Jim said he'll chime in later about model and price? I like it but I don't play classical-mine is museum mint quality. I just can't find the different models-Jim said he had old catalogs?

I just looked and yours is a 1911! I searched Vega mandolin serial #'s and looked under a post on the Café here! 

If mine isn't worth too much I think I'll keep her as its very nice! If only 300 bucks or so that is but if 800-1000 I'll let her go so someone can get some use out of it!

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Joe Bartl

Worth?  Not really sure.  I bought mine at a Maine thrift store for about $100.  It needed a headstock repair which I had done.  The luthier I use in MD had one of these in his shop and mentioned they generally go for $600-$700 dollars.  He, like me, has a great deal of admiration for these.

----------

William Smith

----------


## William Smith

A headstock break is a bummer-yours is still nice! I don't mind cracks/repairs etc. I almost bought a 23 Loar F-5 with a headstock break-Gil repaired it so I know it would've been sound and one can hardly tell there was a break! If mine is 700-800 it can go bye bye but I want the experts to let me know for sure as its seriously a sweetheart, in perfect condition-was in an attic so I'm very surprised it survived and isn't hammered!


I imagine one has to use extra light strings on these correct?

----------


## Joe Bartl

The repair was expertly done and is difficult to see unless you are looking for it.  The instrument is solid, great intonation and great tone ... great tone.  I'm not an expert, but light strings will do ... something like Dogal Calace Dolce RW92B

----------


## Jim Garber

Absolute best strings are Dogal Calace RW92b dolce. I never thought much of American vintage bowlbacks until I got that Vega and tried those strings. Worth it to try out. You might even enjoy playing with those strings.

Will: I think that pricing may be a little high even in mintish condition. I would guess more like $600-800 more like it considering what a bad rap bowlbacks have. Still Vegas, Martins, Washburns among a few others are excellent bowlbacks in general.

——-
Whoops. I saw the 800-1000 estimate. There are a few folks on the cafe looking for bowlbacks so possible in the lower range IMHO.

----------

DavidKOS, 

William Smith

----------


## DavidKOS

> ——-
> Whoops. I saw the 800-1000 estimate. There are a few folks on the cafe looking for bowlbacks so possible in the lower range IMHO.


The most I've seen paid for these would be around $400-600 bucks, but that was a few years ago and I am not sure of today's market. It's nice instrument, though, I've played several of these over the years and a buddy owns a few in his large bowlback collection.

As we know those well made and still in good condition bowlbacks do not command the prices that other vintage mandolins sell for; it's a combination of supply and demand and current taste.

----------


## Jim Garber

David: yes you are probably correct. I was being optimistic. Frankly, that is probably one of the last ones I would sell partly because it was such a bargain and a fine sounding instrument.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## William Smith

Hey guys were these Vegas mass made? Were they sold throughout certain catalogs like say "Sears"? I'm new to these things and if mine doesn't sell in my add I placed yesterday I will keep it because its so clean! No issues at all, not even the slightest fret wear, the paper backing inside the body that covers the ribs is also perfect with no bubbling or separations etc.! They did a great job building these as the multiple layers of binding are perfect as is the inlays and the board etched inlays! The tortoise shell "I'm guessing anyway" pickguard is perfectly inlaid into the top with perfect pearl inlaid into that! I'm gushing a bit over the pride of work that was used on these but I've said it before back then makers took serious pride in what was made and sent out for sale! Now if mine is a style 2 was there a fancier model #1?

Do you know how much $ this model was new from the catalog/shop by chance in 1913? I'm very much into history and like to learn all I can about instruments I know nothing about! Thanks for all your help guys! I can see how and why some of you love these old models as I'm into the old Gibson's of the 20's and 30's but have had many top tier teens mandolins, mostly Gibson's and some Lyon & Healy's-one I wish I would've kept as that one was perfect, an A model 2 point longer scale with the Violin type headstock! It was superior and flawless, perfectly made-it went to a Classical player maybe in San Francisco who loves it, it even had the original purple lined rectangular case "Looked like a smaller version of a Loar F-5 case!" This old Vega has a GREAT tone I think but I've never played a bowl 
back this clean before and with this amount of perfect playability! I just played some very trashed ones and that turned me off but this one is a different little beast!

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Jim Garber

Whenever I can get to my computer, Will, I can post catalog pages of these and there specifics you ask for. 

For now, the styles go up in ornamentation more or less. Style 1 is plainest and style 5 has lots of inlay. There was someone who posted a style 5 a while ago. After that there were the artist models. There may be some Pettine models on the first pages of this thread.

This thread: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...back-mandolins

----------

DavidKOS, 

William Smith

----------


## Jim Garber

Will Smith: I believe I was right that yours is a style 2. I scanned the models 1-5 pages from the copy of my 1910-5 Vega catalog with specs and prices. Attached is a pdf.

----------

DavidKOS, 

William Smith

----------


## William Smith

Yep Mine is a style 2! Originally 40 bucks! Thanks for all that info/PDF very interesting-Mine is so clean if it doesn't sell I may have to keep it! Thanks again.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Jim Garber

> Yep Mine is a style 2! Originally 40 bucks! Thanks for all that info/PDF very interesting-Mine is so clean if it doesn't sell I may have to keep it! Thanks again.


Mine is also super clean. Didn’t even need any goings-over by my luthier. With Dogal Calace RW92b strings sounds as good as any bowlback. Sings so sweetly.

----------

William Smith

----------


## vic-victor

Beautiful 1910 Raffaele Calace 16 Bis. Just listed in the Classifieds. Here for posterity.

----------

Beanzy, 

Eugene, 

Jim Garber

----------


## Luis Fernandez

I was very lucky and someone offered me an Embergher 5 bis in good shape. Here are some photos:

----------

Beanzy, 

DavidKOS, 

Eugene, 

vic-victor

----------


## Jim Garber

Lucky is an understatement. That does look like in excellent condition. Are those Thomastik strings? I can’t tell if that is an original bridge or whether it is a proper repro one.

----------


## Luis Fernandez

It's true, I was not only lucky, I was honored. Thank you very much for your help with the question I asked about the small separation between the ribs  :Smile: .

Strings are Dogal RW92B, I want to try Thomastik or Optima and see how they get together. The bridge does not look original, it has a different shape than others I have seen in photos, and it's not compensated:



Now I only need a good case. I have read many topics on the forum - very good information - and I doubt between a couple of options (I'm located in Europe):

- The Dogal case that looks like the one Violinking copies: https://www.miletti.it/shop/Custodie...ODIA-X-MA.html

- A fiberglass one that looks like is made by the same manufacturer as the Eastman:
https://shop.scavino.it/astuccio-man...17.gp.79742.uw

- Or contact Kingham or another maker and order a custom one

----------


## Bob A

I have doubt about the bridge as well. My only example is from considerably later, so designs might have changed, but the bridge on the mandolin in question seems sort of crude when contrasted with the splendid workmanship of the rest of the instrument.

Be that as it may, a lovely instrument. Congrats to the new owner.

----------

Luis Fernandez

----------


## Joe Bartl

Aliparla, Having myself just acquired a Pecoraro Embergher, I, too, am on the lookout for a good case.  I'll be interested to hear what you have to say about the cases you look at.  Thanks. -- Joe

----------


## Mark Wilson

a million+ views.  Wow!

----------


## Luis Fernandez

> Aliparla, Having myself just acquired a Pecoraro Embergher, I, too, am on the lookout for a good case.  I'll be interested to hear what you have to say about the cases you look at.  Thanks. -- Joe


Hi Joe, congratulations on your Pecoraro! Post some pictures if you can!

I'm moving house at this moment, so I will have to wait some weeks until I have a final address to made the order. I'm gravitating towards the Dogal, but is easier for me as I'm located in Europe.

----------


## Eugene

> I was very lucky and someone offered me an Embergher 5 bis in good shape.


Fantastic!  Congratulations.

----------

Luis Fernandez

----------


## Joe Bartl

aliparia, per your request, here are photos of the 1980 Pecoraro I just acquired.  Both the sound and the playability put this instrument in a whole other class than what I am accustomed to playing.  What magic is this?  Why don't other bowlbacks sound as though you're performing in a cathedral? -- Joe

----------

Cando, 

DavidKOS, 

Eugene, 

Luis Fernandez, 

vic-victor

----------


## Eugene

Lovely.

----------


## Luis Fernandez

Wonderful instrument, Joe, congratulations!

----------

Joe Bartl

----------


## Tavy

> aliparia, per your request, here are photos of the 1980 Pecoraro I just acquired.  Both the sound and the playability put this instrument in a whole other class than what I am accustomed to playing.  What magic is this?  Why don't other bowlbacks sound as though you're performing in a cathedral? -- Joe


Nice!

----------


## Jim Garber

This *early fluted Calace bowlback* (up for live auction today) looks very nice but may have some structural issues (top may have some sinkage and bridge is positioned in the wrong location to provide lower action). The Nicola e Raffaele Calace label has the name blocked off with what looks like black marker. And there is a Samuel Adelstein label pasted over that Calace label. Adelstein was an active teacher and performer in San Francisco around the beginning of the 20th century probably imported this Italian mandolin. He usually played Vinaccias but obviously liked Calace ones as well.

--------

It sold a little while ago for $900 plus buyer's premium or $225 = $1125. I think a fair dealer/retail price in perfect condition would be $1500-2000USD. So, no real bargain here especially if it needs some significant work. Still it could be a nice player.

----------

Cando, 

DavidKOS, 

derbex, 

Eugene, 

vic-victor

----------


## vkioulaphides

Greetings, all. 

This _truly_ goes under "asking for a friend".  :Wink:  I have neither direct acquaintance with the owner of these instruments nor any business interest in them. My only understanding is that the owner is an elderly lady who has cherished these instruments for decades but doesn't know exactly what they are, what they are worth, who the next owner may be after her passing and all that. She lives abroad so she doesn't even know whether the materials render them non-exportable.





My most rudimentary question is, what _are_ they?  :Confused:  I'm a very, ah... street-level mandolinist so anything beyond the modern, Neapolitan mandolin is fine print to me, indiscernible. 

Cheers,

Victor

----------

Beanzy

----------


## Jim Garber

That is a tough one, Victor. At first I thought they were tamburitza instruments or possibly Turkish, like sazes, but 8 strings? I can't tell from the tiny photos whether they even have frets. Can you get large photos and more details. I am not even sure if they are ribbed or flatback.

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## vkioulaphides

Strange beasts indeed, Jim.  :Confused:  They _do_ seem to have a few frets but, as you say, it's hard to tell whether they are _fixed_ frets— making them "Western" instruments for lack of a better word— or _movable_ ones, making them more Middle-Eastern. But then again all sorts of lute-like instruments in Europe had movable, "temperable" frets so the beat goes on, as does the confusion. 

I will ask for bigger pictures and, most importantly, pictures of the backside of these mysterious beauties. Let's see what this inquiry yields. They now live in the Caribbean, owned by a 90-year-old who inherited them from _her_ grandmother. So far, the only thing we know is that they are certainly _old_. But that means very little in discerning _what_ they are. They don't seem to have the proportions of any saz I have ever seen but... was there ever a short-ish _colascione_?  :Laughing:

----------

Beanzy

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## Jim Garber

Victor: I find this site, *Atlas of Plucked Instruments*, pretty useful but it takes a bit of surfing through lots of pages and much guesswork.

It is even hard to tell how large or small these are. Get as much info as possible. Any markings or labels other than inside the case lid. It does say Napoli but maybe just sold in that shop. I don't have any jpeg files from DiGiorgio.

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## Beanzy

These look like a very interesting find Victor.
I think the elongated peg box for friction pegs may throw people off a bit, but the business end of the instruments is shouting 'mandolin'
For me the interesting things are the string anchoring at the heel along with 8 strings and a floating bridge.
The peg boxes and ornamentation are very reminiscent of some of the instruments housed at the V&A museum (pics earlier in this thread) but those have the fixed bridge lute-type construction. 
These could represent a but of a missing link in the transition to the mandolin type structure (or just be someone's later  special commission for romantic reasons)

One thing is for sure, they were built for someone with money & not to a price.... might be time to search oil paintings for similar examples.
I suspect this one could run a while Victor  :Smile:

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## vkioulaphides

Thank you, both. I have asked my conduit to get us more info, mostly images; we cannot expect much _verbal_ explanation from someone who admits to knowing nothing to begin with.  :Wink:  Let's see what comes back to us...

----------


## brunello97

Does it appear that they have _two_ sets of tuners? (Red Arrows) One midway along the neck and then another further on up?

And frets in between? (Blue arrows)

Mick

----------

Beanzy

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## Eugene

I certainly hope better quality images can be had.

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## Beanzy

Definitely some extra funkyness going on at the other end.
Almost like a mandolin hybridised with a Baryton or Theorbo; a Neapolitan version of the theorbino using mandolin technology for the bridge & anchoring of the strings?
 
a definite whiff of baroque era inventiveness going on in these.

----------


## Eugene

I'm beginning to suspect a bit of Franciolini-esque hodgepodgery.

----------

Jim Garber

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## vkioulaphides

> I'm beginning to suspect a bit of Franciolini-esque hodgepodgery.


Apparently these creatures fall under the _mandolino da weirdo_ subcategory in the taxonomy of plucked instruments.  :Laughing: 

For the sake of full disclosure, I heard of these through an equally weird chain-reaction: my wife's oldest brother is married to a very fine lady, who is thus my wife's sister-in-law. _She_ has a sister, who in turn knows the elderly granddaughter of the original owner, now long deceased. So the only hard fact here is that these instruments have been around for a good while. If the _granddaughter_ of the original owner is now in her 90s, these instruments were probably acquired by her grandmother a long, long time ago. I am told that the late madam Such-and-Such actually _played_ these. 

The first question would be whether these are "period" instruments or simply fancy (and fanciful) replicas of something or other. I am not the seller and a natural skeptic. My first guess is that these were made by someone who didn't quite know _what_ he was building.  :Laughing:  Sure, plenty of MOP and tortoiseshell there but... what on earth _are_ those things?

----------


## Joe Bartl

So, could the upper tuners be for sympathetic strings, as in a viola d'amore?

----------


## Beanzy

> So, could the upper tuners be for sympathetic strings, as in a viola d'amore?


yes, the upper nut looks like a raised platform, it appears to be at x2 the mandolin scale and I can count 12 white grooves across the bridge.
From that I would speculate normal mandolin on 8 strings and 4 sympathetic octave strings.

----------


## Beanzy

I've been having a rummage based on my initial hunch of a mandolin based theorbino and it looks very close to what you would expect.
  
These are lute based examples.

An interesting aspect of the sympathetic strings on this instrument is the middle nut looks like it has slots cut out to allow the sympathetic strings to pass.
These lute based ones have a canted neck to allow them all to pass above the other courses (and be plucked at will) these, if the shadows I see are actually slots, would only be sympathetic octave strings; so a different principle to the theorbino. A very unique find & I hope we get better images to look at soon to see where the strings actually pass the middle nut.

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## vic-victor

Isn't it a version of what's called a "baroque mandolin"?

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## Beanzy

> Isn't it a version of what's called a "baroque mandolin"?


& then some.... here's a photo to highlight/ exaggerate  the interesting bits up at the second peg box.

----------


## vic-victor

The maker, Di Giorgio is still alive and well (as a business, of course) in Brazil. Not sure if the modern one has a connection to the original one in question, but quite possibly. I had a Di Giorgio guitar once before.

----------


## Jim Garber

> The maker, Di Giorgio is still alive and well (as a business, of course) in Brazil. Not sure if the modern one has a connection to the original one in question, but quite possibly. I had a Di Giorgio guitar once before.


Yes, that is all I could fine—lots of guitars in Brazil.

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## Beanzy

Rione Amadeo would have been a very up market address in old Naples, a zone with grand buildings and show-piece palaces. 
Probably why it appeared so boldly on the gilded lettering adding to the sense of luxury.
 I would love if we could get some more background about the elderly owner's grandmother. We already can tell she or her family were able to shop for expensive and unique instruments in places with prestigious addresses.  :Smile:  It would be really nice to get the link back to their acquisition and a flavour of who could buy and commission these rarities.

----------

brunello97

----------


## Beanzy

> The maker, Di Giorgio is still alive and well (as a business, of course) in Brazil. Not sure if the modern one has a connection to the original one in question, but quite possibly. I had a Di Giorgio guitar once before.


I think that is Romeo Di Georgio (born in Rome 1888] who emigrated to Rio and opened his guitar shop in 1908, no mention of Naples in his career.
Still no info on G. Di Giorgio I have found yet. Probably one for one of our Italian friends to sniff out.

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## vkioulaphides

I have no acquaintance with the family that owns these instruments but, from the granddaughter's account of her grandmother, I do get a sense of a life of luxury and leisure. On that account, she lived visiting opera houses around the world, painting for her own pleasure, writing poetry for her friends and family, and collecting things of beauty-- which brings us where we are. She also apparently _played_ the "mandolin", if by that we are to surmise that she played _these_.

That strikes me as remarkably odd. It seems wildly _recherche_ to be playing such instruments, by any standard out of the ordinary. The family lived in various parts of Latin America but that's neither here nor there; they are Spanish-speakers, not Portuguese-speaking Brazilians. Besides, the world has been cosmopolitan for much longer than one might at first assume. Italian luthiers often emigrated to the Americas, others, American-born apprenticed in Europe etc.

I have asked for more images. I don't count much on getting any meaningful, descriptive information from the current owner. I will be happy to share...

----------

brunello97

----------


## Jim Garber

I just scoured a few of my instrument books and find very few instruments that resemble what we can see of these two. If, indeed, there is an extended tuning area a large number of examples are more like teorbos or instruments with harp extensions (like the arch-citterns). Closest I can find are the Italian citterns below. Sorry they got cut off but these are large books. If there are any of interest I can scan those photos. The color one is a French cittern from the 17th century. You should be able to read the decription on the two pages (from Baines book.)

Citterns seem to almost always have flat backs but we don't have a clue what theses look like. Looking forward (if possible) to seeing larger more detailed photos.

BTW, Victor, our friend Carlo Aonzo has done some extensive research on mandolin-like instruments like these.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Eugene

> OK, here's one for the brains trust. Just spent the day with mando type things in the Stearns Collection at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and found this one. It is a bowl back 12 string (6x2) mandolin with 21 fluted rosewood ribs.  and these strange combination of soundholes. The ebony fret board is flat, but scolloped between the frets. It has a hand written label of 'Luigi Embergher, Roma 1890' as well as something which could well be  COSTRUTTORE D' STRUMENTI ARMONICI, but handwritten and indistinct, that Alex T mentions on the Embergher site on labels from around that period. It is fitted with gut and (I think) wound over gut strings. The tuners are normal on the back, but the posts come through two plates attached to the front of the head. Might it be some strange double course Milanese/Lombardic mandolin or something I don't know about at all  
> 
> cheers
> 
> graham


Searching for images of something altogether different, I stumbled across this posted during one of my prolonged absences from the cafe.  I first observed this instrument around 2003 or '04 when I was working on a couple invited chapters to a failed book project (initiated by Dan'l Terry, later taken up by Gregg Miner, and then entirely abandoned; it was intended to be something like what Graham's book came to be, but more "mandolino"/"mandola"-centric with only cursory mentions to ancestors of differing names).  I returned to the Stearns specifically to measure this instrument in 2006 or '08 or so (I have notes someplace in my office from which I am exiled by COVID).  Dr. Lam was curator at the time of those visits.  At that time, the Stearns warehouse was in deplorable condition.  I get the impression that they may have come to be better funded since.

I was convinced that this piece was an early and deliberately experimental—likely a one-off to satisfy his own curiosity—Embergher.  The crispness of line and interior of the bowl are telling.  It's not too different from his known early pieces with tension pegs, e.g.  I had some correspondence with Ralf Leenen and Barry Pratt to follow (I do know that was 2008).  We'd intended to collaborate on an article.  However, day job intervened, and I never got around to it.  At the time, I'd speculated that the piece was built to the concept of "mandolino lombardo a corde doppie metalliche" as described in the appendix to Pisani (1899).  (Although it had the remnants of some gut strings on it.  Its bridge had also been glued to the soundboard, and I don't believe it was originally.  I suspect some meddling, possibly by whoever originally acquired it for Frederick Stearns.)

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brunello97

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## Eugene

PS: I dug a little deeper into my e-mail archive on this odd 6-course Embergher.  It looks like my first visit with the piece was in summer 2004 and my return was in autumn 2008.  While we discussed an article in 2008, I found that I'd first written to Ralf Leenen and Barry Pratt regarding the instrument in January 2005.  This was before I had checked the terminology proposed by Pisani as referenced above.  An excerpted copy-and-paste transcription from our 2005 correspondence:




> I do not believe the university has the original acquisition documentation for every piece in the collection.  Stearns collected instruments throughout the late 19th c. and donated his collection to the University of Michigan in 1899.  This mandolin was in the collection when it was first catalogued by the university in 1918; I suspect it was part of the original donated collection in 1899.  I don't believe anybody has used or worked on the instrument since.
> 
> I suspect this thing is authentic, but it certainly is odd.  It is not like anything else of which I'm aware to have originated in Embergher's shop.  The label is handwritten in script on a rather ornately shaped paper label: an exact transcript:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> ...



Because I'd referenced the Stearns Collection's published catalogue, here's its entry on the piece (transcribed from 2008 e-mail correspondence with Dr. Joseph Lam, but I'd originally transcribed it from the physical document, full citation below):




> 1058. Mandolino, Italy: Oval body. Purfled sound-board. Machine head.  Three pairs of gut, and an equal number of over-spun silk strings.  Twenty metal frets. One oval and two F sound-holes.  V-shaped head.  Length, 61 cm; of body, 32 cm; width, 21 cm; depth, 14 cm.  Signed--"Luigi Embergher, Roma, 1890."


Stanley, A. A. 1918. Catalogue of the Stearns Collection of Musical Instruments. The Univ. of MI, Ann Arbor.  (Ohio State University's music and dance library actually holds a physical copy of the catalogue.  For the pathologically curious, it should be available via inter-library loan.)

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brunello97

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## Eugene

PPS: And, just for good measure, from the appendix "Varie forme di mandolini e strumenti affini" of Pisani's method (Pisani, A. 1899. Manuale teorico–pratico del mandolinista. Ulrico Hoepli Editore, Milan):




> Mandolino lombardo a corde doppie metalliche: Il Casini ha costruito anche questo tipo di mandolino, per ovviare forse all'inconveniente che presentano i mandolini lombardi, che le corde si frangono con estrema facilità e ben di frequente. La tastiera è identica a quella del mandolino lombardo. Le corde 12 cioè 6 doppie (unisone a due a due). [pg. 133]



My effort at translation:




> Lombard mandolin with doubled metal strings: Casini has also constructed this type of mandolin, perhaps in order to obviate the disadvantage that Lombard mandolins present, that the strings break extremely easily and very frequently. The fingerboard is identical to that of the Lombard mandolin. The strings 12, that is 6 doubled strings (the two of a course played in unison).

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS

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## vic-victor

I was talking to Lorenzo Lippi some time ago and he mentioned that he once had a chance to look at Embergher's archive of private orders and that E. was willing to accommodate individual orders as funny as adjusting the bowl shape to suit the shape of a fat belly for one of the customers, for example. I guess this one could have been the private order for Bandurria-like instrument that was completed using the mandolin body E. had in stock.

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Eugene

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## Eugene

. . . and there certainly was some precedent for the existence of a "Mandolino lombardo a corde doppie metalliche."

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## brunello97

Here it is, once again, for posteriority.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Eugene: Interesting... I thought that all Lombard mandolinos had gut/nylon strings. I don't know which Casini Pisani mentions, but my 1896 mandolino is by Serafino and single-strung for gut. Actually I only have standard Neapolitan style mandolins in my file for Giuseppe Casini of Napoli.

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DavidKOS, 

Eugene

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## brunello97

Perhaps answering Bro' Eug's question from 2008 (thread post # 3912) here is a "Griffith" mandolin on the Ebay.

Elegantly shaped rosewood bowl, nice detailing and graceful fretboard extension.
The Philadelphia address and the various details makes one assume an association with Weymann or perhaps OSchmidt up the NJ Turnpike.  

Maybe a similar tailpiece pulled into Nazareth and wound up on a Martin bowl such as Eugene was asking about....

It's a pretty mandolin under all that grime.

Mick

----------

Eugene

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## Eugene

My daughter pointed this one out to me on eBay.  It's intriguing, but it needs just a little more work than I'd feel up to investing in it.

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## Martin Jonas

I was just browsing old editions of the BMG Magazine (from the archive here) and came across the cover of the December 1949 edition.   I believe the instrument E.J. Tyrell is playing is a Gelas bowlback, with rather more decorations than normally seen on Gelas instruments. It also looks to have a very narrow soundboard, but that may be because of the angle he's holding it.

Martin

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brunello97, 

Cando

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## Eugene

Certainly looks Gelas-esque.

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vic-victor

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## Jim Garber

> Perhaps answering Bro' Eug's question from 2008 (thread post # 3912) here is a "Griffith" mandolin on the Ebay.
> 
> Elegantly shaped rosewood bowl, nice detailing and graceful fretboard extension.
> The Philadelphia address and the various details makes one assume an association with Weymann or perhaps OSchmidt up the NJ Turnpike.  
> 
> Maybe a similar tailpiece pulled into Nazareth and wound up on a Martin bowl such as Eugene was asking about....
> 
> It's a pretty mandolin under all that grime.
> 
> Mick


Seems to also be another *plainer Griffith*. I couldn't find the first one. Have a link?

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## brunello97

I bought a sequined suit from a Pearly Queen.....

Likely from the good folks at L+H, now at Elderly.

Pretty out of control design-wise, but the fretboard, soundhole inlay and pickguard combo are muy splendido.   

You don't see that very often outside of Catania...

Maple bowl.  :Wink: 

Mick

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DavidKOS, 

Eugene

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## Jim Garber

I think that is an early Washburn style 80 but there Is a fluted style 85 beyond that glitz. I think I have a tailpiece like that somewhere. Mick, did you really buy it?

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Eugene

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## brunello97

No, no, Jim.  I just thought that inlay was a notch or two (or three) above what we often see in US bowls...which tended much more to the 'classical' in decoration, particularly post Columbian Exhibition in Chicago, which was likely still very influential at the time of this mandolin.  

The beautiful Chicago linework of Sullivan and Wright doesn't really show up in GreatLakesRim mandolins, the way Art Deco / Liberty Style was so reflected in Calace and Cristofaro's work from the era.     This one leans a little more that way to my eye.

Mick

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## Eugene

> Seems to also be another *plainer Griffith*. I couldn't find the first one. Have a link?


I missed this query back then, but didn't have the link anyhow.  My daughter showed it to me, I noted, and mentally moved on.

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## quartino

> Greetings, all. 
> 
> This _truly_ goes under "asking for a friend".  I have neither direct acquaintance with the owner of these instruments nor any business interest in them. My only understanding is that the owner is an elderly lady who has cherished these instruments for decades but doesn't know exactly what they are, what they are worth, who the next owner may be after her passing and all that. She lives abroad so she doesn't even know whether the materials render them non-exportable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My most rudimentary question is, what _are_ they?  I'm a very, ah... street-level mandolinist so anything beyond the modern, Neapolitan mandolin is fine print to me, indiscernible. 
> ...


Dear Victor,

These two items are ornamental miniature mandolins/lutes, crafted in Napoli in the middle of the XIXth century. Similar one here :
http://www.pauldegrande.com/antique/...rument-in-box/
I have one very similar too and will try to post pictures of it.
They belong to the vast series of miniature instruments manufactured from the end of XVIIIth century for different decorative purposes, among others for putting into the hands of Arlequino statues in Christmas Nativity scenes. They exist in many different sizes and were not meant to be played at all !

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Beanzy, 

brunello97

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## brunello97

> Dear Victor,
> 
> These two items are ornamental miniature mandolins/lutes, crafted in Napoli in the middle of the XIXth century. Similar one here :
> http://www.pauldegrande.com/antique/...rument-in-box/
> I have one very similar too and will try to post pictures of it.
> They belong to the vast series of miniature instruments manufactured from the end of XVIIIth century for different decorative purposes, among others for putting into the hands of Arlequino statues in Christmas Nativity scenes. They exist in many different sizes and were not meant to be played at all !


Assolutamente meraviglioso.  

Please post pictures of yours, if you will.  I enjoy the link you shared.  The case in finto guscio di tartaruga is superb.

Mick

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DavidKOS

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## quartino

Here are my miniature mandolins. The largest (probably one of these Di Giorgio's, unfortunately without its case and in less nice condition than the ones pictured earlier) is 40 cm long. The third from the top seems to be the oldest one, probably end of XVIIIth century.

----------

Beanzy, 

brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Eugene

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## brunello97

Here is an interesting, if modest, Wurlitzer bowlback. Of the Cincinnati Wurlitzers, examples of which we have seen here.

This one is notable for its curious assortment of details, including the headstock profile, taterbug bowl, inset tuners, and exuberant scratchplate profile, familiar but unique.

The Italian style tailpiece is not common on US bowls and suggests to me at least an earlier date.  

The rounded over end of the fingerboard is a detail I don't recall seeing before...on either US or Italian bowls. 

I'm not sure if Wurlitzer made any mandolins in Cincinnati or jobbed them all out.  (eg. I have a Wurlitzer-labeled / Vega-made "Leland" flatback.)

This one doesn't give away much about its origins to my experience.

I wonder what others think?

Maybe Diego G. has a catalog page?

Mick

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## Eugene

My daughter shared this interesting listing with me: eBay item 275002416982.  I'm not interested in buying, but find the piece interesting because I have a 1910s Favilla Bros. with an identical scratchplate.  My Favilla differs in having the shield engraved for some shading and to include the letters "MVB" (initials of the person to place the custom order?), a different headstock design inlaid with a pearl flourish and "FAB," fingerboard extension to 29, no positoin markers, and 52 (!) ribs.  I suspect this ornate, Italianate Renaissance-style dragon motif was mass produced by somebody.  I would have thought it was a once-off.  Since it evidently is not, I'm surprised to have only seen it twice.

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## Jim Garber

Here is a *basket-case Fratelli Calace* dated on the label 1896. Definitely a different design than later ones.

----------

sebastiaan56

----------


## Jim Garber

*Basket case Fratelli Calace* from 1896. Interesting to see a different design from later models.

----------


## Jim Garber

*Basket case Fratelli Calace* mandolin from 1896.

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## Jim Garber

Very strange. I posted now three times here and added some photos and yet my post does not show up. Yet I posted just text like this and no problem. When I edited and added photos it disappeared. What gives?

----------


## HonketyHank

FYI, I see your posts 7303 - 7306. 7303 & 7305 have attached photos that I can see. I am using Chrome browser in Windows 10.

I am wondering if this is related to problems some iPhone users are having seeing videos caused, I believe, by an Apple iOS update that no longer allows the use of Flash . Are you using Apple software or iOS? I know the pictures are are not videos, but they use a java script called "Lightbox" and I don't know how Lightbox handles picture attachments. Could it be using something related to Flash? I believe Apple no longer allows Flash due to its vulnerability to malware attack.

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## Jim Garber

Ah! *Now* they all showed up! How strange!

Yes I was using Apple software on my Mac but never had any problems until tonight. They showed up fine now. It just took some time.

Maybe the moderators can delete all but the first one?

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## Bruce Clausen

Yes, a little strange.  For several days my screen was showing (rightly) Eugene's #7302 as the latest post, but the Last Post link was going to the top of page 292, with #7300 as the last post visible.  Glad to see everyone back.  :Wink:

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## brunello97

Glad, I suppose, that it's not just me.  

I haven't been able to see any posts since just before Eug's referencing his Favilla...which Jim picked up on and referenced in another thread.  
Since I'm a fan of Favilla mandolins I was at a loss.

Until Bruce's post seemed to break the logjam.  He describes the same snarl I was having.

Hank....this has been going on with Chrome on my Macbook and with Safari on my iPad as well for almost a week.  Maybe a Mac thing?

I wasn't having issues with other threads, though.

Mick

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## Eugene

My own ability to see disappeared as well . . . until now.  I don't use an iPhonedon't post here using any phone.  I wonder if the direct eBay link was somehow autoflagged as potential spam.

I'd originally intended to follow up with pictures of my own Favilla, bought from Oster's shop in Philly years ago.

----------

brunello97

----------


## DiMono

Does anyone know things about Suzuki bowlbacks? M-30 M-50

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## Jim Garber

My only experience was owning a 1970s Suzuki bowl back which was overbuilt and not impressive. I have heard that the M series were and are (?) decent mandolins. I don’t know if many of those were imported to the US.

----------

Eugene

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## Marc Woodward

Here’s an odd one. It’s a de Meglio style body but dig the weird key operated tuners, the rollers in the bridge and nut, and that the strings are four single strings with loops at both ends doubled round…

----------

DavidKOS, 

sebastiaan56

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## Eugene

Wacky.  Good thing that fingerboard is so thoroughly mapped!  It's easy to get lost beyond that first-position f".

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Marc.....These (or this) have popped up here before, I think.   I've wonder if it is a hacked DeMeglio or a DeM copy to try out the inventive tailpiece, bridge, tuners rig.

_Tune both mandolin strings at once._  Not hard to see how that idea might come to someone, but it's pretty impressive to see how someone followed through and actually fabricated the parts.  I wonder how close it came to working?

As ingenious as the system sets out to be, having to twist together the free ends to loop around the tuner hook undermines the fun of the cool replacement parts.  They twisted ends look pretty gnarly.  

The nut looks all gunked up.  Was it lubricated and they caked with dust?

I'm with Eug, the combination of the nutty tuning system and the methodically pasting of note markers is pretty ironic.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Thread posted by Marc about 4 years ago here: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...ines-like-this

And Mick found linked another one in 2020 on this BON thread: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...=1#post1776677

Carlo Alabiso/a is what it says on the back of the tuner mechanism. These are variants of the Preston tuners on citterns and Portuguese guitarras and bandolims.

Marc, is this your treasure? If so, can you actually tune it? I think we answered your question the first time in that thread. I don't think there is any additional info. We got all the mando-sleuths on the job back then. Sorry...

----------

brunello97

----------


## Marc Woodward

Ah sorry, Id forgotten Id posted about this before. Its not mine - its in a nearby music store. The photos I posted previously were ones the owner sent me - I finally got to see it yesterday. Hes hanging on to it - although Im forbidden from buying any more mandolins anyway

Still Id love to get my hands on it and give it a good cleaning!

----------


## Jim Garber

That’s ok, Marc. I love the super-oddity of this inventor. If I may quote my former self:




> As Graham notes, the Preston tuners add the complication of double looping but this adds even more complication using strings twice the needed length thereby solving a problem (?) that really didn't exist.


E 
BTW Marc and I discovered we were both mandolin playing poets and right before the pandemic I was planning a trip to the UK. This Alabiso/a mandolin is yet another incentive for the future.

----------


## brunello97

Here is another mandolin from P Cosentino of Valleta, though one can't be sure if it is truly of Maltese origin, or perhaps an import from Sicily.

16 strings....as are a couple of other (mandriola ??) examples from PC that I have in my files...along with some 8 string mandolins with some of the same ornamental exuberance.

Tuning and playing one of these, if that was the intention, would likely have required some dedication.

This one is in rough shape but features a fluted bowl, some choice MOP on the fretboard and the top double binding was once very nice to my eye.

The craftwork doesn't seem to be evenly distributed across all the encrustations.

The Ben Hur dude is a bit clumsy, but thankfully his cape provides the wished-for decorum.  The neighing horses are charming.

I've never been to Malta, but would enjoy a visit one day.  
Arriving from the sea to Valleta would be pretty amazing experience, I think.

Mick

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Eugene, 

sebastiaan56

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## Jim Garber

> 16 strings....as are a couple of other (mandriola ??) examples from PC that I have in my files...along with some 8 string mandolins with some of the same ornamental exuberance.


This should be called a poly-mandriola or maybe a many-mandriola. Yikes! Try to find 8 on a plate tuners to replace those. 

No thank you!

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## Jim Garber

I just acquired this Rafael Ciani/Galiano mandolin today. This is a modestly ornamented one with 32 ribs of rosewood and an extended fretboard. I only have one other Ciani jpeg in my files with similar fretboard markers. A friend's piano student wanted me to have it. The student is in his mid-eighties and his father owned and played it and I am guessing that his dad might have bought it new. I am not sure how the relationship of RC and Galiano (Oscar Schmidt) worked. Some Galiano labels do not say Ciani but I am not sure if I have seen RC only on a label. In any case, it is in decent shape with a broken scalloped tailpiece and a piece of the apron broken off on the bottom of the bowl.

I will string it with my favorite bowlback strings: Dogal Calace RW92 Dolce and see how it sounds and plays. I think the owner had it worked on recently by a local NYC luthier so the neck does look straight and the action is very low and playable even with the old strings.

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Eugene

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## Eugene

I bought a Ciani/Galiano decades ago.  Similar degree of ornament (but with those two cherubs facing each other on the scratchplate), but without that extended fingerboard (maybe a short extension to 20).  It was a basket case, and I sold it off again for parts without giving it any effort.  I'm keen for your impressions of this once strung.

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## brunello97

Fair play to you, Jim.  

Somewhere (maybe here?) I've read something to the extend of Ciani having a studio or a "shop within a shop" at Schmidt.  
Whether that meant a physical location in the main OS works or some other location under the aegis of the big company.
The labels aren't all that helpful.  As we've seen, some just have the "RC" initials and some bear his full name.
What was he involved with making vs what simply bore his initials?

I guess we'll get it sorted out in that book on NY-NJ-PA mandolin makers that you and Mike are going to write.  :Wink: 

That small-big-small pattern of fretboard dots shows up on a fair number of the Cianis in my files.  The dressier ones.

I'm hoping this one sounds good for you as I'd enjoy seeing RC get more props in his own regard besides being the zio of JD'A.

Just now looking at the G / RCs in my files and one maple bowlback looks strikingly like an early Favilla.  
Can't help but wonder if there was a Ciani - young Favilla connection at some point in time as well.

Get back to us on this....

Mick

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## Bill Foss

I've been looking for a really good bowl back for some time. There's a 1958 Calace in the classifieds for $2,750. I play Italian mandolin tunes, many from Naples, so this caught my eye. But I know the quality of Calaces fluctuated over the decades. Does anyone know if this era is a good one? There is no model listed. I just don't know that much about bowl backs!

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## Jim Garber

Bill Foss: I am not sure which model this is either but it doesn’t look like the top of the line. I hesitate to say that a 1950s Calace is not good but it seems like the price is a bit optimistic. Again not having the instrument in hand I can’t say for sure. Personally I think you might want to save your money and look for a decent vintage American bowlback like Martín or Vega which will cost you less. See how you like playing that type of instrument and then consider a higher priced mandolin even an Italian one. I think you live in the US. If you were in the UK I would suggest a DeMeglio or Ceccherini in good condition before spending close to $3000.

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Bill Foss

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## Bill Foss

Yes, one can never tell without having the instrument in hand, but your input is much appreciated. I let a very nice Martin slip away just before the pandemic hit. I think I will continue the search with Martin or Vega in mind.

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## brunello97

+1 on Jim's recommendation for a good quality Vega.  

I've found them to be the most "Italian" of the major US producers.  
Lightly built (but with a better neck) and very responsive.

Keep us posted on your search and what you find.

Mick

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Bill Foss, 

DavidKOS

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## Jim Garber

And to add more Italian flavor try Dogal Calace RW92b dolce strings best IMHO for vintage bowlbacks.

Consider also Washburn, American Conservatory, Weymann, Maurer etc if on good shape.

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Bill Foss

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## Bob A

Why not settle for an Italian bowlback? There are quality instruments available for far less than that Calace. I can attest to the tonality of Italian bowlbacks differing from the American bowls I've played.

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Bill Foss

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## Neil Gladd

I recently paid $1500 for a 1913 Calace that had been fully restored. I love it, and thought it was a deal!

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Bill Foss

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## Jim Garber

I did suggest Demeglio, Ceccherini and would add Puglisi and probably a real others. I have owned a few teens and twenties Calaces and they are excellent and own a few Emberghers. Nothing against them at all however for most of us in North America it is more difficult to obtain Italian bowlbacks and since he says he is interested in getting into bowlbacks and the good quality American vintage ones will do the trick at a lower cost that close to $3k. I think also after playing a good reasonably priced one you would know what to look for in the higher priced ones. Certainly a $1500 Calace would be a good buy. Just clarifying why I posted what I did. As many know I have a closet full of Italian *and* American bowlbacks.

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Bill Foss

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## Bill Foss

Thanks for all the input my friends. This gives me some direction.

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## brunello97

Here is a basic Puglisi mandolin in the Vinaccia style. 

Which probably vies as the most copied mandolin style versus the F5,

Budget mandolin but that is one _incredible_ scratchplate.

We've seen dozens and dozens of these faux tortoise patterns. 

This one is great.

If it weren't wrecked, I'd might buy if just for that.   But I don't need any more wrecked (broken!) bowls.

Anyone else remember the "Broken Bowls" sales that were held years ago here?

Ha! I learned so much further dismembering some of those basket-case-bowls.  
And fixed up a few to be quite nice.  And have a few still sitting around.


Anyhow, makes me think about a "Scratchplates of Note" thread.


Mick

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DavidKOS

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## Beanzy

Mandoloncello from the Monzino luthiery, maker Marino Gennaro 1911
Part of the Castello Sforzesco musical instrument collection Milan
Length 1145mm width 373mm depth 220mm. scale length 740mm


Label reads; ""ANTONIO MONZINO & FIGLI / MILANO - Via Rastrelli, 10 / STABILIMENTO FONDATO NEL 1767 / Strumenti Musicali a Corde / Fatto l'anno 1911 dal proprio lavorante / Gennaro Marino / Antonio Monzino"

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brunello97

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## Beanzy

Mandoloncello from the Monzino luthiery, maker Riva Severino 1909
Part of the Castello Sforzesco musical instrument collection Milan
Length 950mm width 311mm depth _96mm ?_ scale length 576mm


Label reads "ANTONIO MONZINO & FIGLI / MILANO - Via Rastrelli, 10 / STABILIMENTO FONDATO NEL 1767 / Strumenti Musicali a Corde / Fatto l'anno 1909 dal proprio lavorante / Severino Riva / Antonio Monzino"

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DavidKOS

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## Beanzy

Lombard Mandoloncello ,no label. 
Thought to be from the Monzino luthiery, attributed to maker Marino Gennaro, approximate years 1900-1910 due to stylistic similarities with the one in post #7335
Part of the Castello Sforzesco musical instrument collection Milan
Length 952 mm width 322mm depth 154mm. scale length 570mm

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brunello97

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## Beanzy

Mandola from the Monzino luthiery, maker Marino Gennaro 1906
Part of the Castello Sforzesco musical instrument collection Milan
Length 737mm width 259mm depth 167mm. scale length 415mm


Label reads "Antonio Monzino e Figli/Milano - Via Rastrelli, 10/stabilimento fondato nel 1767/Strumenti musicali a corde/Fatto dal proprio lavorante Gennaro Marino, l'anno 1906/Antonio Monzino"

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brunello97

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## Beanzy

Lombard Mandolino from the Monzino luthiery, maker Marino Gennaro 1906
Part of the Castello Sforzesco musical instrument collection Milan
Length 575mm width 235mm depth 120mm scale length 307mm


Label reads "ANTONIO MONZINO & FIGLI/Milano - Via Rastrelli, 10/STABILIMENTO FONDATO NEL 1767/Strumenti Musicali a Corde/Fatto l'anno 1906 dal proprio Lavorante/Gennaro Marino/sotto la direzione del Capo Tecnico/Antonio Monzino"

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## Beanzy

I'll end this collection with a bit of bling;
Mandolin from the Monzino luthiery, maker Marino Gennaro 1906
Part of the Castello Sforzesco musical instrument collection Milan
Length 615mm width 203mm depth 144mm. scale length 333mm



Label reads; Antonio Monzino e Figli/Milano - Via Rastrelli, 10/stabilimento fondato nel 1767/Strumenti musicali a corde/Fatto dal proprio lavorante Gennaro Marino/Antonio Monzino"

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS

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## Beanzy

Well maybe not the last. This was too interesting a curiosity to resist.
Again part of the Castello Sforzesco musical instrument collection Milan
Listed as Lombard mandoloncello ?? 1890 - 1900 unknown maker
Length 844mm width 301mm depth 167mm. scale length 521mm

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## Beanzy

Curiouser & curiouser they get in the Castello Sforzesco musical instrument collection of Milan

Liuto? or 5 course mandolonello? but looks more similar to a mandola scale 
Made in 1942 by Pagani Livio
An interesting hybrid of styles; 5 courses, flat top, but floating bridge in the Neapolitan style.

Length 783mm, width 264mm depth 161mm, scale length 433mm

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brunello97

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## brunello97

Nice set of posts, Eoin.   Thanks!

Are you in Milan at the Castello, or are these from an online database of their collection?

We'll be over there in late June, so thinking ahead....

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I am guessing that he is posting images from their website: https://strumentimusicali.milanocastello.it/

or he could be there: https://strumentimusicali.milanocast.../MANDOLINO.pdf

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## Beanzy

Just virtually touring I'm afraid. Otherwise I'd try for better pics. So Mick your holiday task is set. 🥸

I wonder if they're kept on permanent display, or whether it's possible to arrange a viewing?
I'm fascinated by these mandoloncello alternatives. I never even realised people had gone for working up the Lombard versions.

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## brunello97

> Just virtually touring I'm afraid. Otherwise I'd try for better pics. So Mick your holiday task is set. 
> 
> I wonder if they're kept on permanent display, or whether it's possible to arrange a viewing?
> I'm fascinated by these mandoloncello alternatives. I never even realised people had gone for working up the Lombard versions.



Certainly worth a try, Eoin.   We have had some good fortune with such in the past.   Worth learning the language to help open up a few doors.

The Monzino work is stunning and great to have the names of some of the actual makers:   Gennaro Marino and Severino Riva...who Diego will appreciate was also a violin maker.

The Sforzas have a pretty checkered reputation as dynasties go, but the castello complex in Milan is extraordinary. 


Mick

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## brunello97

FWIW here is a very clean example of a Montgomery Wards label bowlback.  

There's been various discussions of on the various makers who might have supplied the Chicago ur-Amazon,
so it's nice to keep track of these.

As another testimony to the benefits of _keeping your mandolin in its case_ this seems in quite good condition.
The linework on the scratchplate is particularly attractive.

The quality of materials, that went into these MOR mandolins of the era often comes as a surprise or even a shock. 

Given the likely quantities produced, the craftwork appears very clean and neat as well. The bowl in particular.

Mick

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DavidKOS

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## Jim Garber

Pickguard and headstock shape resembles American Conservatory and other L&H lines. That is a good bet among the Chicago suppliers.

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DavidKOS

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## brunello97

> Pickguard and headstock shape resembles American Conservatory and other L&H lines. That is a good bet among the Chicago suppliers.


I wouldn't bet against that.  It's a clean machine under any circumstance.

I've got an AC bowl, and not a fancy one, but it has a proper ebony fingerboard, as this one might as well.  Hard to verify from the photo.
And not a wafer thin one as we see on most of the for-trade MOR Italian bowls of the era.

BTW, I've replaced the fretboard on numerous Italian bowls to improve the intonation due to sketchioso fret spacing and maybe help address neck angle issues.

Taking off the old fretboard revealed that the fret slots were cut _after_ the fretboard was attached to the neck.
The slots cut all the way through the fretboard and into the neck.

Interesting process.  But as thin as some of those FBs are I don't know how else it might have been done.

Mick

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DavidKOS

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## brunello97

An enjoyable Puglisi bowl for sale on Ebay.

I like the double banding of top inlay that the Sicilians often used.

But there it is, right there, in a great photo.

It's not the neck that goes South on these old bowls, it's the top that sinks in and the whole neck rotates upward.

We've seen this all too often.

A lot behind it: design issues, construction issues, instrument care issues.  Climate.  Maybe even luck.

Embergher and CFMartin addressed it. 

The "City of Broad Shoulders" built broad shouldered bowlback mandolins. 
But the problems continued.

As much as we've discussed vintage bowlback mandolins here, this photo clearly illustrates important things.

This beautiful instrument is toast.

Mick

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## derbex

This Nicola Calace is up for auction in Minnesota (NFI)



https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...0-af310109f8f1

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## Jim Garber

> This Nicola Calace is up for auction in Minnesota (NFI)
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...0-af310109f8f1


Very strange that inlaid Virginia on the Fretboard. Looks like the pearl fell out of the I and the A. I wonder if that was ordered custom from the shop that way.

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## Tavy

Ceccherini on eBay UK, from a guitar shop, might be worth a punt if someone really wants one: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185640407...&segname=11021

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## brunello97

That Ceccherini appears to have the double top feature, John.

The price isn't bad but for the top repairs and that the seller doesn't ship over here.

Here's a photo of it for posteriority.

Mick

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## Beanzy

> 1881878[/URL]]This Nicola Calace is up for auction in Minnesota (NFI)
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...0-af310109f8f1


The decorative plate on the rear of the headstock is interesting.

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## Tavy

> That Ceccherini appears to have the double top feature, John.
> 
> The price isn't bad but for the top repairs and that the seller doesn't ship over here.


The top repairs look like it had serious issues at some point, I notice there's no side view so we can tell what the action is either.  Strangely this is the first Ceccherini I've seen that's needed this kind of repair, they're normally pretty tough little instruments!

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## brunello97

Inspector Clousseau said it best:  "I want to buy an Embergher!"

I'm a big fan of much of Pulglisi's work, typically the more exuberant their unabashed copying is, the more fun and vital I find their design work.

This mandolin is a pretty rugged attempt at the Roman style.

They've done better.

I'm not quite convinced, though, that the scratchplate scroll and dragon aren't part of a concious effort to out-goofy the original LE design goofiness. 

But who doesn't love a maple bowl? 

And there's the vague traces of an attempt to pull off the iconic Embergher recurve profile between bowl and neck.

It appears as if the neck remains in pretty decent shape.

Awkward craft and impressive craft side-by-side.

The sale ended quickly.  And cheaply.

The usual suspects here are likely sniffing and tutting, but my guess is that this would be a fun one to catch and release.

Mick

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DavidKOS, 

Eugene, 

Mandophile

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## Jim Garber

This is a bowlback, actually a shellback. From one of the fertile minds of Catania. There is a label inside but I could not get to it with a camera. The maker's label said Angelo Fenga. I have a Luigi Fenga in my files who seemed to make quite a few mandolins. This shell-shaped back must have taken a bit of planning but the luthier pulled it off. I guess this was playable at some time in its life.

No, I didn't buy it. I went to a woman's house to buy a small pile of mandolin music but the one book in her picture that realy wanted ironically she misplaced. Came home with a collection of junk pieces (the tailpiece pile she mentioned to me was also misplaced). This was so messed up it would take a few thousand dollars to fix it. Also, apologies for the quality of photos. We were looking at all of this in a cold garage.

Enjoy!

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

sebastiaan56

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## Eugene

Wacky.  Too bad about its state.  I'd love to see/hear this one in action.

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## brunello97

> This is a bowlback, actually a shellback. From one of the fertile minds of Catania. There is a label inside but I could not get to it with a camera. The maker's label said Angelo Fenga. I have a Luigi Fenga in my files who seemed to make quite a few mandolins. This shell-shaped back must have taken a bit of planning but the luthier pulled it off. I guess this was playable at some time in its life.
> 
> No, I didn't buy it. I went to a woman's house to buy a small pile of mandolin music but the one book in her picture that realy wanted ironically she misplaced. Came home with a collection of junk pieces (the tailpiece pile she mentioned to me was also misplaced). This was so messed up it would take a few thousand dollars to fix it. Also, apologies for the quality of photos. We were looking at all of this in a cold garage.
> 
> Enjoy!


That’s amazing, Jim.  Many of those staves have serious compound curvatures.  If the builder made one, I wonder if he/she made two.

How did it wind up in Westchester?

I’ll bet Sheri’s eyes locked on the “Perpetual Motion” folio on the stack.

Mick

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DavidKOS

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## Jim Garber

> That’s amazing, Jim.  Many of those staves have serious compound curvatures.  If the builder made one, I wonder if he/she made two.
> 
> How did it wind up in Westchester?
> 
> I’ll bet Sheri’s eyes locked on the “Perpetual Motion” folio on the stack.
> 
> Mick


Actually, her father was an Italian mandolinist and lived mostly in Brooklyn. In fact he and I both played in the NY Mandolin Orchestra but I don’t recall his name. He had a lot of stuff but I have a feeling that it was mostly picked over. He liked to tinker and fixed instruments for others. I guess he found this shell-back and started to fix it. It was funny because his daughter told me at the last minute that she had an interesting lute that her dad never finished fixing. When. She brought it out I told her it was a mandolin. It would be a monumental job to get that back in every close to playing shape.

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Eugene

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## Louise NM

Although this thread seems to be mainly for Italian bowlbacks, here's an American-made one. 

1903 Stewart and Bauer, Brazilian rosewood bowl with 42 staves. Although there is some play wear on the top—but not a lot for 120 years—the bowl is very clean. It seems to have been a case queen for much of its life, and thankfully was stored somewhere climate-controlled and not in an attic or barn. I got it out of the MC classifieds. It's really easy to play, sounds great, and will probably open even more with with time.

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Eugene

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## Tavy

Nice mandolin you've found there!

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## brunello97

> Although this thread seems to be mainly for Italian bowlbacks, here's an American-made


No inherent bias here!   I think you’ll find a lot of US bowls have been posted and discussed.

Very happy to see yours and would enjoy more photos…even a shot of the label if you can.

The Stewart/Bauer/Weymann/Schmidt axis is of real interest.

We say it here so many times, it’s like a mantra, so forgive me….extra light gauge strings only….

A very pretty rosewood bowl!

Mick

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## Louise NM

> We say it here so many times, it’s like a mantra, so forgive me….extra light gauge strings only….


The strings that came on it are Thomastick-Infeld weich, .009–.30, so I think they are safe.

I'll try to take more pictures in a day or two. I played it in orchestra tonight, and it held its own with all the modern instruments.

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brunello97, 

Eugene

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## Jim Garber

If you prefer the more mellow sound, stick with the Thomastiks. Frankly, I like the brighter Italian tones of Dogal Calace RW92b Dolce strings.

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## sebastiaan56

> This is a bowlback, actually a shellback. From one of the fertile minds of Catania. There is a label inside but I could not get to it with a camera. The maker's label said Angelo Fenga. I have a Luigi Fenga in my files who seemed to make quite a few mandolins. This shell-shaped back must have taken a bit of planning but the luthier pulled it off. I guess this was playable at some time in its life.
> 
> No, I didn't buy it. I went to a woman's house to buy a small pile of mandolin music but the one book in her picture that realy wanted ironically she misplaced. Came home with a collection of junk pieces (the tailpiece pile she mentioned to me was also misplaced). This was so messed up it would take a few thousand dollars to fix it. Also, apologies for the quality of photos. We were looking at all of this in a cold garage.
> 
> Enjoy!


That is so cool. I hope someone can bring it back to life.

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## Jim Garber

I will never know. The woman was not selling it, though I also did not make her an offer. Just what I need another project that would take thousands of dollars. I have too many of those.

----------

