# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  Mashgrass

## hippieNug

Or is it Mash Grass? Either way, what the heck is it? Is it that super hard-driving kind of bluegrass that's usually in B and the mandolin player is chopping as hard as they possibly can? 

It sounds silly, but I've Googled it several times and have always come up empty handed.

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## mrmando

I thought mashgrass was what the jam sounds like after the Mason jar has made it around the circle three times.

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Timbofood

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## Ivan Kelsall

Maybe you're getting confused by the name ''The Mashville Brigade'' ?. There is an expression ''Jam-grass'', which is used to describe an on-stage performance where the band extend 'whatever' they're playing into a sort of 'long jamming scenario'. Most notable of these bands (AFAIK) are 'The Infamous Stringdusters' & 'Greensky Bluegrass' . TIS's playing ''Black Rock''  https://youtu.be/gYsoVUGg9us,
                      Ivan

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gtani7

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## Timbofood

I thought it was what happens when you clean your neighbors dog's "leavings" off your shoe.

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## AlanN

'Mash it' is a recent term the younger set has created to mean 'spank it', 'burn it', whatever. You're right, key of B seems to be the favored key for that in-your-face, hard driving thing.

I saw a funny thing once: Ashby Frank and friends were jamming in a hotel lobby, with this kind of thing going on. But, what they were doing was each cat was playing different chords. It sounded awful and cool at the same time. The crowd was loving it.

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## hippieNug

That's what I was looking for. Thanks AlanN!!!

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## AlanN

And B has been around in grass since Monroe's time, with the CG, Doyle, Sam Bush, and all them latching onto it for that high lonesome sound. But the man who really brought it into modern use is Alan Bibey...bless his heart...Now, whole sets are performed in that key. I saw 3TO once and Moore never took the capo off 4. I would add Rick Allred too as a B guy...very hip lines in his playing.

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Drew Egerton

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## Willie Poole

Playing B doesn`t have to be "High", "A few Old Memories" is recorded in B and it is on the low side....

     Willie

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## Drew Egerton

Or something like Adam Steffey's "Leaves That Are Green" or many other tunes he sings are done in B but with his low growl.
It's such a cool sound and fun to pick, but for my voice the lows are too low and the highs are too high lol.

I've been working on Alan's break to "Moundsville Pen" which is in B flat, but still drives and grooves like B, with its own flavor too.

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## chris.burcher

Around here we call it 'mash it down in B' and,  yeah, it's a straight-ahead-bluegrass cover band thing.  I consider it a derogatory term that describes playing in B for the whole set, at pretty much the same tempo.  There are also artifacts of imitation, very little deviation from the records.  I wish I could do that but I just can't.  I think a set needs variety - of keys, tempos, sing songs and instrumentals, etc., to maintain appeal.  Pretty awesome to be able to even play in B (I find it a strange key) but anything you do the same over and over again gets repetitive.  I remember watching these young kids camping next to me at Summerville WV years (like 20) ago and they played all LRBs (no knock on Lonesome River Band, those guys are pros and created a whole new version of bluegrass, IMO) stuff note for note for hours.  It was amazing but the capos never moved and it felt a bit . . . . empty after a while.   It seems it has become a trend among the younger generation of bluegrass pickers around here.  Again, I WISH I could do that, but I would try and mix it up, too.

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## AlanN

Yeah, didn't mean to imply that singing in B is always a high pitch. To use another Adam example, he sings Don't Let Your Deal Go Down on one his solo things, maybe Grateful. And he does it in a slow tempo. I like it. And his "When I was a child I used to sit and watch the rain" song lyric, in B chord also. Low and lonely.

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Drew Egerton

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## Nate Lee

I've found that "Mash" and "Mashgrass" mean different things to different people. I can tell you that as a sideman on the mandolin, when someone tells me they want a "Mash" or "Mashgrass" groove, they are usually asking for something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cHZ85RTeHQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxfbQpr-dkk

A huge part of what makes the sound in the videos above is the timing and groove of the players, and the way they use dynamics at the beginning of phrases and between vocal lines.

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## tangleweeds

> There is an expression ''Jam-grass'', which is used to describe an on-stage performance where the band extend 'whatever' they're playing into a sort of 'long jamming scenario'. Most notable of these bands (AFAIK) are 'The Infamous Stringdusters' & 'Greensky Bluegrass' .


Thanks for the terminology. I've seen a bunch of these shows and really enjoyed them, particularly how some jams created what felt like pulsating standing wave patterns on the room. I've only ever heard this done by string bands with real resonant chambered instruments, never with electric or electronic instruments (and I've seen a lot of weird music!). Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon? It's like the musicians are collaborating to play the room as another chambered instrument.

I once read about an experimental (acoustic) piano artist who did shows based on this effect.

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## Timbofood

Ivan, of you to make the OP find the right track. Not my particular cup of tea jam grass is a flavor of musical marmalade I can live without. Playing driving "In Your Face" is, to my mind, something entirely different. 
I am not going into that, I have known the guys from "Greensky" since they were pups and we all travel different roads.
Enough from me on this one.
Dinner time!

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## Ivan Kelsall

Re. ''Jamgrass'' - for me,it's ok,but in small doses. As for the key of B,apart from the 'natural' key of A on the mandolin, it's my favourite key to play in. On banjo as well - i love the higher pitch,especially on songs like ''Little Maggie'' as sung by The Stanley Brothers on their ''Hard Times'' LP,the YouTube clip of which appears to have been removed. 
    Timothy - I like 'Greensky Bluegras's & the 'Stringdusters' for their 'difference'. Its a change from playing 'straight' bluegrass & calls for a different style of playing to be able to 'fit in'.Just another thing to learn in case i ever have the chance to actually do it,
                                                                                                                                                                    Ivan

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## John Adrihan

There is also thrash grass. Trampled by turtles sometimes fit this bill.

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## Timbofood

Understand your point Ivan, different it is, for me, not so much something I seek out. Have had the opportunity to share stage with "Greensky" a couple of times and play with Dave whenever the opportunity presents itself, rare now that they don't live down the street, so to speak. 
"In Your Face" is how my band has been described for forty years, we play hard, with conviction, driving as fast as ability allows. What those guys do isn't what I would refer to as "Face grass", Mash/jam/marmalade/stew grass maybe. Just one opinion.

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## Drew Egerton

On the jamgrass stuff or whatever you want to call it, I love it in a live setting, but I don't care much for listening on a recording.
Steep Canyon has implemented some long jam sessions into their songs, extended picking by every instrument with sometimes the same or different chord progressions than the previous or next song, but on the record they keep them fairly straight ahead. The crowds I've been in to see them twice in the last month have been lively, energetic, dancing, singing, jumping up and down, crowding the stage, etc. (maybe drinking too? lol)
It's not Monroe or Flatt and Scruggs' scene, but I have expanded my horizons over the last few years thanks to them, Sam, etc. and am really starting to dig it.

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Drew -_ "...but I don't care much for listening on a recording."_. I wouldn't go for that either. In a live situation,where it 'might or might not' happen,it's ok,but knowing that _every time_ you play a recording,you're going to get the same 'extended play',for me that's something i don't want. 
    As Drew seems to,i do like the 'differences' that these bands come up with. For me,it's a break from straight ahead Bluegrass & a way of extending my playing ability,both of which i enjoy. I can see myself at one of our UK Bluegrass festivals in a jamming situation with some of our younger ''more adventurous'' players, & being able to 'pick along',instead of standing on the side like an old fogey who knows nothing but ''the old stuff''. I may be 71 years old,but my pickin' ain't !!, :Grin: 
                                                                                                                            Ivan :Cool:

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Jess L.

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## Timbofood

It's ALL better live!

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## onassis

> I've found that "Mash" and "Mashgrass" mean different things to different people. I can tell you that as a sideman on the mandolin, when someone tells me they want a "Mash" or "Mashgrass" groove, they are usually asking for something like this:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cHZ85RTeHQ
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxfbQpr-dkk
> 
> A huge part of what makes the sound in the videos above is the timing and groove of the players, and the way they use dynamics at the beginning of phrases and between vocal lines.



Excellent examples of what I think of when someone talks about "mashing it".  It *is* all about the groove, not fast per se, but really on top of the beat, pushing it forward.  And B always seems to be the key of choice for this.

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## wallygator

I have trouble playing mando in B or any "non-open/first position"(hope that makes sense) have no trouble with the guitar I guess cuz I broke in on it & can Capo....I'v'e also found that Bb seems to be my most comfortable key to sing in fwiw....not sure how any of this relates...just saying.... :Smile:

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## fatt-dad

The Normcore Ramblers (i.e., my duo) don't play no stinkin' Mashgrass!

f-d

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## Justus True Waldron

I think it's been pretty well covered by now, but Mash to me is predominantly a rhythm thing. The mando chop is important, but I don't think the sound is possible without the rhythm guitar and bass working together to drive things. Yes, B is popular (and helps drive the negative connotation of mash, i.e. the whole never moving the capo off the 4rth fret thing), but it is certainly possible to get that sound and feel in other keys. I've heard tunes mashed in G, A, Bb etc.

Another thing I think is interesting is that the term "mash" is definitely predated by the sound itself. I'm not sure when the term came to prominence, but the style is generally attributed to the bands of the '90s and on - LRB, 3TO, some Allison Kraus, Mountainheart, Blue Highway etc. That said, this is the oldest recording I know of that to me has the modern "mash" feel, Red Allen playing live back in 1983:

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## AlanN

That doesn't sound live, to me.

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## Justus True Waldron

> That doesn't sound live, to me.


You're right Alan, I'm not sure why I said that. Still in 1993 though.... Vasser, Josh Graves and Marty Stuart on the mandolin.

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## Timbofood

Not what I would consider any form of Mash/thrash/stew/jelly or jam. That's about as old school "hard driving" as ever recorded.
My band works hard at having the level of respect for these guys, they all knew where they were from and knew where they were going, musically at least.
Listen to Marty Stuart today, he knows where the roots are and where the branches are growing and never forgets that.

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## Justus True Waldron

*1983.... not 1993 as I said above. Whoops




> Not what I would consider any form of Mash/thrash/stew/jelly or jam. That's about as old school "hard driving" as ever recorded.


Definitely not thrash or any form of jam.... but those are both really really far removed from "mash". Mash usually is hard driving. And that is old school certainly, but it is still a different sound to my ears than scruggs style bluegrass, because the bass is played completely straight and without the slight "hop" or "swing" that tends to happen in classic bluegrass. The rhythm guitar is more prominent here too, and although that could just be the recording it helps the effect. Add in the fact that the mandolin is clean single note playing and that it was recorded in B, and it all sounds pretty mash to me... at least my interpretation of the word. 

Of course, that's not something they were aiming for, I'm sure nobody was saying "Mash it, son" for at least another 15 years or so. To them it was just straight hard driving bluegrass... It's just fun to look back through the microscope of time and analyze these things!

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## AlanN

Yeah, would agree. Predates 'mash', but has certain aspects of that groove. Red kind of was a bridge to old and young, trad and modern, no small part being his kids' influences (both good and bad..).

To me, Marty S. was ahead of his time as a mando man, maybe even under-rated as a stylist. I always thought he was great, with a flair and hipness to his thing that nobody else got, plus he could burn it. But, not everybody felt that way. I remember Barry Mitterhoff asked me once who I admired. I said MS. He scoffed.

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## Timbofood

So, playing in "B" is the key to mash? Sorry fellas, that's close to a pant load. I guess I'm too old for this discussion. We play in "B" quite a bit never felt any mash concept, simply where it plays or sing better. I may excuse myself from this one.
Have fun

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## Justus True Waldron

> So, playing in "B" is the key to mash? Sorry fellas, that's close to a pant load.


I'm sorry if this discussion is ruffling feathers, although I'm not entirely sure why. I never said playing in B is the key to mash, actually I outlined a few things of what I believe makes up the "mash" sound popular in bluegrass today over the past couple of posts. 

To me the basics of the mash sound are this: Bass playing totally straight rather than "bouncy". Mash bass to me seems to be almost pushing the beat rather than resting just behind it. Sometimes it's even electric, Ronnie Bowman style. To me, bass is the #1 overlooked aspect of getting this sound. After that it's rhythm guitar, which is typically louder in the mix than in other "variants" of bluegrass. Lots of G runs to end phrases, coupled tightly to the bass. Dan Tyminsky's rhythm playing is a good example of what I'm talking about, it builds an almost pumping "boom chuck" sound between the bass notes and the high notes ringing out. Mando chops are usually straight, no swinging or brushing of the strings. Mando breaks are usually clean, not so much monroe style. Banjo is strong and at the forefront as well.

Again... that's all just my take from listening to a lot of stuff classified as "mash". None of these are rules of course, but I'm throwing that out that because if you took those elements and threw them into a bluegrass song I bet you it would start to sound approximately like the style some call "mash". Playing in B is popular for these types of bands, but certainly not required to get the sound. On the flip side, you can certainly play in B (as bluegrass bands have for years) and not play with the mash sound at all.

All I was attempting to point out was that there were a number of these so called elements of the mash sound existing in Bluegrass before anyone put a name to it. In fact, I'd almost say that's the opposite of saying that "Anything in B is mash". It's just another "flavor" of bluegrass, in the same way that a band striving for that traditional sound today could be called "monroe style" or a band of long hairs jamming a 20 minute acoustic version of a dead tune could be called "jam grass".

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## AlanN

Oh, man. Once it needs to be explained....

Yes, the mando part is usually clean, precise, uncluttered, no Compton/Monroe stuff. Ashby Frank comes to mind, there are other cats. And one of the hallmark chord forms is that 'modern thing of 7-2-5-3 (in G here) - used sparingly, within reason. I asked Butch Baldassari what he thought of that shape. His answer: I hate that.

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## Nate Lee

Justus, that is a great description. And Alan, that's hilarious! Personally, I really like that chord, but like you said, used sparingly.

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## Timbofood

Good point Alan!
It's not ruffling my feathers, I'm just expressing my opinion. And to quote "Harry Callahan" : "A man's got to know his limitations."

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## Atlanta Mando Mike

Another agree on mash being about the rhythm.  Much of it is sitting in front of the beat and everyone right in lockstep-really it's modern, advanced bluegrass rhythm accenting the "and". It is aggressive but not always about tempo (although it can be), more about groove and everyone accenting aggressively at the right times creating a stylistic sound.  There is a bit of a formula. My view is that it comes out of the Tony Rice Rhythm method but really hit its stride with LRB and their syncopated rhythmic pops during songs in the 90's. It feels great in B but it has become synonymous with fast B covers.  That's really where it starts with young players, and it's fun, then they grow up and realize the same tight rhythm can happen at all tempos - ala AKUS- they are so tight at any speed and the music bounces and breathes. Mash is somewhat opposite of the Jam Grass feel in most cases.  Take the Dusters out of the mix of jam grass bands and you get a lazier, laid back rhythmic feel there as opposed to the forward leaning syncopated style of more modern bgrass.

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## Mandoplumb

I don't understand this mash, never heard the term, but at least 2posts have said it pushes the beat. I thought that was bluegrass. Listen to early Flat and a Scruggs Bill Monroe, Stanley Brothers, Country Gentelmen as well as a lot of others and tell me they ain't pushing the beat whatever tempo they are playing. Have we listened to new grass and what passes as bluegrass so long that we think we've found something new?

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## Atlanta Mando Mike

Mandoplumb, it's a more aggressive, syncopated version of older driving bluegrass.  That's all.  It's a bit more evolved on the rhythmic side.  Playing in front of the beat was one description, not the entire description.

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## Nate Lee

Here's a good example of the difference within a single song. The first link is Flatt & Scruggs doing "Head Over Heels", the second two links are more recent bands covering the song in a mash style. Much of the original style is present in the later two videos. 

The main difference between the traditional style and "mash" style is the groove, the way the mando chops, a more square and less bouncy bass sound, and the synchronized emphasis put at the beginning of phrases and solos. These are just a few examples. There are a lot of bands who have elements of both traditional and mash styles on either end of the spectrum. Junior Sisk & Rambler's Choice is a good example. Some people only like one sound or the other, but I've found that there's something awesome about each different style of the bluegrass music.

Flatt & Scruggs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv_pPKwddd0

The Boxcars:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyeyJOIXdrY

Darrell Webb:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUo2QZhR-7k

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## BrianWilliam

Thanks for the videos. Admittedly, the subtlety is lost in my ears. But, that's a personal issue  :Smile:

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## Kevin Shoup

...so is Kentucky thunder mash?

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## Timbofood

> ...so is Kentucky thunder mash?


If that's true, the Osborn brothers were way before the silly moniker came along.
Bluegrass, live, played with heart and respect. 
Mash, the way I am fond of potatoes.
Jam, what I put on my toast with butter.
Americana, a merchandisers over catch all term for anything at any moment. 
Music, something to be played, listened to and enjoyed, what's the point of quibbling about what the "media moguls" want you to BUY.
Play, listen to, share what you like! And, who really cares what it's called, really?

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## Kevin Shoup

I was just curious, I'd never heard of mash before reading this thread.

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