# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  Tone Gard

## jazzjune18

I have seen countless people rant and rave about the tonegards here on the forum.  But I would love to see a video or hear an audio clip.  Anyone have anything out there??"

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## MikeEdgerton

Actually you can do a test yourself without one to find out what it does. Stand in a corner and hold your mandolin back against you stomach and play. Now turn slightly and hold the mandolin out away from your body machine gun style and play into the corner. The back is now free to vibrate. That is what your mandolin will sound like with a tonegard. The Tonegard let's the back of the mandolin vibrate freely without having to contort your playing style.

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Marc Ferry, 

Susan H.

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## jazzjune18

Thanks Mike.  I will try it out !

Mark

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## neil argonaut

To be honest, also, a video wouldn't be great for making the effect clear, as the main effect is on the volume, and it's hard to tell on youtube how loud or quiet something is.

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## bmac

If a tonegard is so effective why isn't one built into mandolins by any manufacturer that I know of? And I see very few professional players using one. I don't have one and have never used one but if as effective as people suggest, a tone guard ought to be found on most store bought mandolins, but they are not. My own feeling is that it looks kind of silly when in use and I would not use one for that reason, even if it does help in volume.

But I tend to be a bit cynical about any expensive aftermarket add-ons like expensive bridges and tailpieces to replace perfectly adequate original equipment.

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## mandrian

I would have to disagree that the top players don't use it. What about Grisman, Marshall, Thile and Statman. I've seen them and they all use it.

Regards

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...I don't have one and have never used one...


To be honest, that statement alone is enough to discount your concern. Try one, if you don't like it then at least you can offer a valid recommendation. I'm generally a skeptic about every new geegaw that comes out. I don't buy into new pick material, string styles, bridge styles, machines that buzz the top, none of it. I have to be shown. I have tonegards on all my mandolins because they do work.

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albeham, 

Bill Swiggard, 

DataNick, 

Paul Statman, 

Rodney Riley, 

Susan H., 

Sweetpea44

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## Tobin

> If a tonegard is so effective why isn't one built into mandolins by any manufacturer that I know of?


That's a good question, as I think it would be a nice improvement.  But the answer probably is as simple as it not being traditional.  Manufacturers tend to make their money on reproducing traditional styles with very little deviation.  Since the ToneGard is available as an aftermarket add-on, it's best to let the customer decide whether he wants to use one or not, rather than locking it into the design of the mandolin.




> And I see very few professional players using one.


If you're not seeing it, then I'd consider that a ringing endorsement of the design being easily hidden.  But the fact is, according to their website, many of the premier mandolin players use them.  Most of my mandolin heroes are on that list, so it does seem that there's something they get out of it.

That said, I don't actually own one yet.  I finally pulled the trigger on one this morning.  I've been frustrated by the tone and lack of sustain/volume in my mandolin lately, and have been performing a rather awkward hold to compensate.  Just holding my mandolin differently makes a huge difference, but I'd like to get that sound without the awkward posture.  I'm hoping the ToneGard will live up to its reputation and solve my problem.  We shall see!

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## neil argonaut

> But I tend to be a bit cynical about any expensive aftermarket add-ons


There's many people here playing mandolins that cost 4 figure sums (or more!) and the vast majority are probably playing something that cost more than $200 so something that impacts the sound and volume massively for $75 isn't excessively expensive if it does what it promises, which I, and many others do. Plenty of times people have commented on the volume I get from the instrument before noticing the tone gard, whereas this never happened before.

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## AlanN

Yep, loads of name pickers use it.

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## SternART

> And I see very few professional players using one.


That is just _WRONG !!!_  You should get out more.......or do better research
before making statements like that.

Most of the top tier professional players that I'm aware of use them.
In fact some have had their own custom designs  made.  David Grisman, 
for example, has a Dog shape in his, that he proudly holds up & displays to
the audience at the end of his performances.

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DataNick, 

greg_tsam, 

Paul Statman, 

Susan H., 

Terry Allan Hall

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## bmac

Neil:
Your figure of $75 for a tone gard is interesting. I had no idea they were that expensive. My two best sounding (and probably loudest) mandolins are  both mid-1930s Strad-O-Lins. One cost me a little over $100 and the other roughly $60 plus some work time repairing them. And, by the way I have played them against Webers and they stood up well volume-wise and tone-wise. My point is that $75 may take you one step up and allow one to buy a little better sounding instrument. $300 will buy some pretty interesting used instruments if you buy on eBay or Craigs list here in the USA. There is always some risk but I have been quite lucky in my purchases.

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## neil argonaut

> Neil:
> Your figure of $75 for a tone gard is interesting. I had no idea they were that expensive. My two best sounding (and probably loudest) mandolins are  both mid-1930s Strad-O-Lins. One cost me a little over $100 and the other roughly $60 plus some work time repairing them. And, by the way I have played them against Webers and they stood up well volume-wise and tone-wise. My point is that $75 may take you one step up and allow one to buy a little better sounding instrument. $300 will buy some pretty interesting used instruments if you buy on eBay or Craigs list here in the USA. There is always some risk but I have been quite lucky in my purchases.


Well in your case it looks like you've either been very lucky, or you have a fine eye for a good instrument - I'm betting most people here will have spent significantly more than $100 if they've got something that stands up well to a weber.
However, generally, I tend to be of the opinion that most folk will get a better sound  with more volume with a $400 mandolin and tonegard, than a $475 mandolin, or indeed $1000 plus tonegard rather than $1075. Similarly, I think money spent on a good set up is probably better spent than on getting a slightly more expensive mandolin. And some days when playing outside in a warm sun, or anywhere else suitably warm, I'd almost pay the $75 just for that bit of airspace between mandolin and tshirt  :Smile:  

Btw, the price was directly from his website.

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## mtucker

There's a big distinction here that people seem to miss the connection to...

If you sit to play and/ or practice, which is the position that most find themselves in 99% of the time...then... not so much, assuming the mandolin is resting in the proper position. But, if you stand and perform frequently by solo or by group, the guard is the only way to travel  :Wink:  That's clearly why the professional players, or anyone who performs for that matter, use them. It keeps the back off the bod!

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## neil argonaut

> There's a big distinction here that people seem to miss the connection to...
> 
> If you sit to play and/ or practice, which is the position that most find themselves in 99% of the time...then... not so much, assuming the mandolin is resting in the proper position. But, if you stand and perform frequently by solo or by group, the guard is the only way to travel  That's clearly why the professional players, or anyone who performs for that matter, use them. It keeps the back off the bod!


Personally I find I tended to sit with it against my body too, but maybe I was holding it incorrectly, and yes, it's true what you say, it makes a lot more sense for standing players.

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## PJ Doland

Notice that nobody here has chimed in to say "I tried one and didn't like it." All the skepticism is from people who haven't used them or are too price-sensitive to spring for one.

These things are like chinrests on violins (which did not exist when Antonio Stradivari was building violins). It's an obvious improvement, which is why almost everyone uses them.

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## neil argonaut

> Notice that nobody here has chimed in to say "I tried one and didn't like it." All the skepticism is from people who haven't used them or are price-sensitive to spring for one.


That's what made me take the leap after hours of trawling through discussion threads on it - not many folk regret it.
Plus there's not many accessories that you can so easily assess the effects of before buying, by holding the mandolin away from you as mentioned.

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## MikeEdgerton

I use one on my $50.00 Strad-O-Lin as well as my Gibson F5G. Cost has nothing to do with it. Now, if you play without muffling the back against your belly then you don't need a Tonegard. The simple little test detailed above will tell you if you can hear a difference. If you don't like the difference or if you can hold that mandolin out comfortably and play then have at it, but if you've never even tried you don't what you're missing.

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PJ Doland

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## foldedpath

A ToneGard also makes a convenient mounting point for clip-on mics that mount with an alligator clip like the Audio Technica ATM350 and Pro 35, or the K&K Silver Bullet. I'm not sure I'd get one just for that application if I didn't notice the tone enhancement effect (which I do, although it's subtle), since there are other mics like the DPA 4099 that are "self mounting." But it's a nice little extra benefit if you have a ToneGard anyway.

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## FLATROCK HILL

> If a tonegard is so effective why isn't one built into mandolins by any manufacturer that I know of?


I'm glad my tonegard isn't 'built into' anything. Unlike a pickguard/finger-rest or an arm-rest, my tonegard can be moved from one mandolin to another in seconds. The price of one tonegard divided by five mandolins is pretty reasonable.

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Susan H.

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## Folkmusician.com

The tonal difference between a mandolin laying up against your body and one isolated is pretty significant in my opinion. It suddenly opens up and has new overtones.  I also have to agree with Neil....  A mandolin with a tone guard will almost always sound better than spending an extra $75 on a better mandolin and at the high-end of mandolins it can add "thousands of dollars" worth of tone. 

And as Mike points out, it is one of the few things you can test yourself without buying one.   :Smile:

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## mandolirius

I don't use one, but I'm skinny and tend to point the mandolin out when I play, so much so that the peghead is nearly pointing at the audience. But some of my beefier buddies who hold their mandolins against their bodies when they play get amazing results. I'd use one if I needed it.

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## Mike Snyder

Not a Tony P product. Stainless round stock. Made a believer out of me.

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## fatt-dad

I love my tone gard. I'm was a skeptic too.  Not prone to frills either.

f-d

p.s., to add, there's a classical performer (Brandt) that has a mandolin with two backs, essentially a wooden tone gard (the second back has a sound port to allow the true back to properly resonate.  There are interesting acoustics that engage the back wood.  The tone gard does address that.  So does that crazy double-back mandolin.

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Paul Statman

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## Clockwork John

I'm not gonna dog on the tonegard, but I don't think I need one. I don't know if it's how I hold my mando, or how I set it up, or how I pick it, but I play loud... Last celtic session I went to, there was another player there with a '96 F5V MM (if I remember correctly), and he was digging out his tonegard after the first tune, and swapping picks after the second, so he could hear himself over me... At the end of the night, I asked to look at his mando, and he was glad, because he wanted to look at mine... because he'd never seen a Kentucky KM-140s that could out-bark his Gibson.

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## Phil Goodson

Most of my playing time is sitting at several weekly jams where I can hold the mando away from my body, so I don't use a Tone Gard most of the time.

But I *DO* have one, and I put it on when we have stand-up gigs once in a while.

I also put it on if I'm going someplace where I expect someone with a *big belt buckle* to ask to try my mandolin. :Disbelief:   :Wink:

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Paul Statman

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## AlanN

Hey Mike, my Spidey Sense is tingling!

And what mandolirius said.

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## JeffD

> If a tonegard is so effective why isn't one built into mandolins by any manufacturer that I know of?


 ....

Because not everyone needs one. If, like me, you don't play standing up and when you sit you are able to keep the back of the instrument away from your body, the toneguard provides no advantage. If you have a tendency to hug the instrument against you, or play standing up where body contact seems unavoidable, the toneguard makes perfect sense. If I played that way I would buy one.




> But I tend to be a bit cynical about any expensive aftermarket add-ons like expensive bridges and tailpieces to replace perfectly adequate original equipment.


There are lots of after market, or at least after built items that folks buy all the time. The violinners use shoulder rests and chin rests, usually bought separately, bass players have that holster thing for the bow.

Healthy cynicism is a very good thing, don't get me wrong. I have been an anti-trendy guy all my life. But in this case it is so easy to see if a tone guard would be of any advantage. Just play with the instrument away from your body and see how much difference it makes. Play facing a corner so you can get an idea what the audience hears. There is no magic.

The tone guard is one of those things that is very simple, does what it is supposed to do, does it well, does it relatively unobtrusively, relatively inexpensive, and for which it is easy to determine the need. 

Not a lot of things you can say all that about.

No financial interest here, i'm just sayin...

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## pefjr

Tone guard,...ah yes , it will keep you from dampening your sound. You are using your belly for a muffler, remove the muffler, voila. Also stop using your fingers to rest your picking hand, or your wrist behind the bridge. They are all sound dampeners. Wood tone guard hmmmm...... interesting. I wondered about using a Stainless Steel both for the weight and the possible addition of a metallic sound, wood might work much better. What does Grisman use? Whatever way Grisman goes I follow....like a puppy.

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## Tobin

Got my ToneGard today and put it on.  My buddy came over for a little front porch picking, and I was glad I had it.  It's been hot and muggy, and the ToneGard kept my sweat off the back, especially since I was mostly standing up.  I noticed a lot more sustain and overtones, though not necessarily much volume increase.  I'll notice the volume difference when playing indoors for my usual practice, I'm sure.

So far, I'm pleased with the difference I hear from my mandolin with the ToneGard on.  And I must admit, it's lighter than I expected.  I don't notice the weight but my mandolin balances better when hanging from the strap.  It fits in the case a little more snugly, but it still closes fine.

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## Michael H Geimer

Stopped using one a long time ago. I just hold it away from my body.

Say I'm facing 12:00 on the clock dial, I'll keep the the instrument pointed towards 10:30. A 45 degree angle might be another way of expressing this posture. "Shotgun" position might also be a term around here.

I have a Tone Gard. They work as described. Eventually found I did not need one _for my playing situations_.

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## JeffD

> ... because he'd never seen a Kentucky KM-140s that could out-bark his Gibson.


Sounds like his Gibson needs a set up.   :Wink:

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custer, 

Ethan Setiawan, 

hank, 

Michael Weaver, 

Mike Bunting, 

MikeEdgerton

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## mtucker

> I asked to look at his mando, and he was glad, because he wanted to look at mine... because he'd never seen a Kentucky KM-140s that could out-bark his Gibson.





> Sounds like his Gibson needs a set up.


Arff..Arff!!

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hank

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## sgarrity

I tried one.  Hated it.  Don't need it.  If you like it, knock yourself out.

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## Clockwork John

> Sounds like his Gibson needs a set up.


Yeah, it definitely struck me, and everyone else at that session, as odd that of the 3 mandolins there that night (the gibson, a martin, and my kentucky), mine was was the loudest. The guy with the gibson told me he did setup work... I told him I was happy with the way my mandolin played and sounded.

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## DataNick

Okaaaaaay!

I can't believe we're having a lively debate about tone gards!

Bottom line is most players can hear/detect a discernible difference when used; it's not a gimmick, it's a very clever accessory that makes it easy to maximize your volume and accentuate the tone of your mando. If you don't like them, fine, don't use one; that's your perogative. Wow, but to tit/tat over a $75 add-on is, well interesting; especially when every demo I've seen/heard and my own experience shows me they work, period!

Someone will always take the counterpoint to the point position, but really; I'd love to sit in on the I know better that you Grisman, Thile, Marshall, Steffey, Benson, etc. conversation!

Don't get me wrong, I just thought this issue was a slam dunk...

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hank, 

Michael Weaver, 

Susan H.

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## MikeEdgerton

There will always be someone that doesn't like a product. I have a friend that just didn't like the way it looked on his mandolin. Me, I use them because I don't want to hold the mandolin out away from my body to let the back vibrate. Nothing is a slam dunk but this product does what it says it does.

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Susan H.

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## DataNick

> ...... Nothing is a slam dunk but this product does what it says it does.


OK, maybe not a slam dunk, but perhaps a Kareem "Sky Hook" ...just like money in the bank, baby!  LOL!

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## JeffD

I think there is a significant "anti-hype" contingent. And I am often in that crowd. I bristle at buying anything that smacks of being popular. That contrarian blood that seeks and embraces the so cool it looks uncool.

But sometimes its not hype, sometimes its genuine. And sometimes the effort to be anti-fashionable is just ridiculous, as it is not really independence, it is following the other flag, giving over control to those too cool for school.

In this case its easy to see if it will of any real value.

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DataNick

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## mtucker

> I use them because I don't want to hold the mandolin out away from my body to let the back vibrate. Nothing is a slam dunk but this product does what it says it does.


For most mere mortals, holding the mandolin away from your body while standing to avoid damping is mechanically a poor solution and almost always causes body/neck wobble and overcompensation with both hands/right arm, reducing freedom of motion and your effectiveness ... sans the toneguard.

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## Folkmusician.com

Yesterday a local professional player was in the shop with his mandolin.  I showed him a Tone-Gard and we were A/B'ing  it back and forth on his mando.  

On really fast licks or slightly sloppy picking, there was a small improvement. We heard it, but it was not that big.
On slower more deliberate playing and anything that sustained, there was a major difference.  Chords rang out with a fuller tone. 

Verdict: Said player is now sold on the Tone-Gard.   :Smile:

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DataNick, 

dfalkiewicz, 

hank, 

Michael Weaver

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## DataNick

> Yesterday a local professional player was in the shop with his mandolin.  I showed him a Tone-Gard and we were A/B'ing  it back and forth on his mando.  
> 
> On really fast licks or slightly sloppy picking, there was a small improvement. We heard it, but it was not that big.
> On slower more deliberate playing and anything that sustained, there was a major difference.  Chords rang out with a fuller tone. 
> 
> Verdict: Said player is now sold on the Tone-Gard.


Nice!....like to see anecdotal data that supports a hypothesis...don't even know why we're discussing this....if you don't want to use one...whatever...that's your freewill choice as an individual, and no one is trying tp push their agenda for mando performance/perception on anyone...I say this thread is done!

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## P.D. Kirby

Okay, we have the Tone Guard thread Ver 6.1 going and a Phoenix Blue Chip thread as well. All we need now is for someone to start a "what's the best strings?" thread and we will have a hat trick going!  :Laughing:

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almeriastrings, 

DataNick

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## Cheryl Watson

I waiting for the "bamboo" model to come out  :Grin:

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hank, 

houseworker, 

Loretta Callahan, 

Michael Weaver

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## DataNick

> I waiting for the "bamboo" model to come out


You know think of this: Top guys in the business attach these funny looking metal-rimmed devices to the back of their expensive, beautiful instruments because of the pleasing asthetic value they contribute; or better yet because all these top pros are just being "goofy" together.....please!....If you believe that..Okaaaaaaaaaay!

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## greg_tsam

With my Tone-Gard and McClung armrest I can hug my mando all I want without affecting it's tone and volume.  I love it.  And so does my mando!  Thanks, Tony!

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Loretta Callahan

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## mtucker

> I'm waiting for the "bamboo" model to come out


I'm holding out for diamond plating...imagine...Cafe coffee mugs, beer cooler and your tone guard. :Grin:

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## greg_tsam

> ...I say this thread is done!


Oh, I see you're new here.   :Popcorn:

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DataNick

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## tophill

In Chris Thile's ad video for D'Addario EXP strings you can see (e.g., at 0:29) and hear his Tone-Gard.

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## Clockwork John

> I'm holding out for diamond plating...imagine...Cafe coffee mugs, beer cooler and your tone guard.


Don't forget the matching bumpers, fender flares, dashboard plate, glove box door, tool box, step rails, gun rack, differential covers, and transmission hump cover, and cup holder... Gotta have the complete set.

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## Jeff Budz

Bmac, your comments are adorable!!!  I just want to eat them up.  I promise; I'll get off your lawn!




> Neil:
> Your figure of $75 for a tone gard is interesting. I had no idea they were that expensive. My two best sounding (and probably loudest) mandolins are  both mid-1930s Strad-O-Lins. One cost me a little over $100 and the other roughly $60 plus some work time repairing them. And, by the way I have played them against Webers and they stood up well volume-wise and tone-wise. My point is that $75 may take you one step up and allow one to buy a little better sounding instrument. $300 will buy some pretty interesting used instruments if you buy on eBay or Craigs list here in the USA. There is always some risk but I have been quite lucky in my purchases.

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## Toni Schula

I recently was playing around with in ear monitoring in combination with a clip on mic on my mando. There I noticed what a big difference it makes when you hold the instrument away from your body. In this setup I could hear it the same way as the audience would have through the PA.

So my opinion is: either hold the mando away from your body as described in previous posts or use a toneguard or miss this additional quality.

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MikeEdgerton

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## swain

> I would have to disagree that the top players don't use it. What about Grisman, Marshall, Thile and Statman. I've seen them and they all use it.
> 
> Regards


Add Roland White to the list of tone gard users.   Add me to the list of happy owners.   Don't need to worry so much about belt buckles, etc.

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## Ben Cooper

Well, this thread answers most all of my questions about tonegards.  I believe I will get one formyself as soon as I finish paying for my latest aqusition. Now I just need to find out about arm rests.........

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## mandroid

also keeps my sweaty T shirt from messing up the old varnished back of my A4.

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## Dave Hanson

It's still a lot of money for a few feet of wire.

Dave H

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## Gary Watkins

> It's still a lot of money for a few feet of wire.
> 
> Dave H


A good mandolin is a lot of money for a little bit of wood!  :Laughing:  :Mandosmiley:

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Ben Cooper

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## Tobin

> It's still a lot of money for a few feet of wire.
> 
> Dave H


I'm not sure I'd classify it as wire.  It's made from small square bar stock.  But as to the value, I'd bet if you went to make one from scratch, designing it and assembling it to fit your mandolin (including material costs), and putting even a modest valuation on the time it takes you to do it, you'll find that just buying a ToneGard is a bargain.

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hank

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## Pete Jenner

> I'd bet if you went to make one from scratch, designing it and assembling it to fit your mandolin (including material costs), and putting even a modest valuation on the time it takes you to do it, you'll find that just buying a ToneGard is a bargain.


That's a silly thing to say. As an illustration of how silly, transfer your proposition to tuner production. ...and set of Grover 309s is cheaper than a Tone Gard.

Tone Gards are laser cut and powder coated - when produced in volume, they would be pretty cheap to make.  Making custom sizes is just a matter of inputting a set of numbers into a software programme.

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## Tobin

> That's a silly thing to say. As an illustration of how silly, transfer your proposition to tuner production. ...and set of Grover 309s is cheaper than a Tone Gard.
> 
> Tone Gards are laser cut and powder coated - when produced in volume, they would be pretty cheap to make.  Making custom sizes is just a matter of inputting a set of numbers into a software programme.


When produced in volume, yes, they are inexpensive.  But again, go try to make one yourself and see if you can do it cheaper than you can buy one.  If not, then why is it "silly" to say that the price of a ToneGard is a bargain?

Comparing it to the price of Grover 309s is comparing apples to oranges.  You're talking about something made by a company who factory-produces them by the thousands (possibly in Asia?) and comparing it to a small business that hand-makes its products in the USA.  Any _my_ statement was silly?

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hank

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## Pete Jenner

What's hand made about laser cutting?
Why is a factory in Asia any different from a factory in America?

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Denman John

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## Tobin

> What's hand made about laser cutting?


How does the ToneGard get assembled and shaped to the curvature of a mandolin?  I'm not claiming to know all about the process, but the ToneGard website states that these are handmade.  There's cost associated with that.




> Why is a factory in Asia any different from a factory in America?


We're talking about cost.  Manufacturers with large-scale needs usually move their manufacturing to Asia for one reason: cost.  You were the one who made the comparison of tuners to ToneGards on the basis of cost, and I responded that it's comparing apples to oranges.  ToneGards are, as I understand it, handmade in the USA.  You can't compare the cost of a large-scale manufactured item like tuners to something like that.

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## Pete Jenner

If it's laser cut it doesn't need to be assembled. It's one of the simplest things to make you can imagine. The only thing that get's added are some glue-on pads. I can't imagine the cost of production being much more than 10 bucks but I stand ready to be corrected.

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## Tobin

I think you may be assuming that it's a single piece, laser-cut from a sheet.  I don't think that's how it works (the waste would be incredible, not to mention the amount of cutting would be inefficient).  As I understand it, the laser-cutting is done on the bar stock or any custom-designed decorative pieces, but the rest of it is piecework that's welded together.  I'd have to go look at mine again, but I seem to recall seeing welds at all the joints.  I would think it's a fairly detailed assembly process to make sure it comes out to the intended curvature and final shape (we ain't talking flatwork here).  Plus the arms have to be installed/bent up, and the pads/tubing have to be installed.  Powder-coating ain't cheap either.

Of course, the man himself could explain the process here if he so desires.  Personally, I don't think it's that important.  I think the price of the ToneGard is very reasonable for what it is, especially coming from a small-scale American businessman who is trying to make a living.

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## JeffD

> I think the price of the ToneGard is very reasonable for what it is.


I agree. The cost to me in materials and time to make a single one, for me, of even comparable quality is ridiculously expensive. That he can make a profit manufacturing them is why they are available in the first place.

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## Pete Jenner

Well I think it's way too expensive.
Let's agree to disagree.

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## mandroid

> How does the ToneGard get assembled and shaped to the curvature of a mandolin? 
> I'm not claiming to know all about the process, but the ToneGard website states that these are handmade. .


the older ones were a lot of welded joints,  after enough were in the market, he managed to get a CNC cutter time, 

to make the holes , to leave  just  about the same amount of metal  remaining 
as the welded  versions were ..  those  for the Gibson Mandolin shapes..

other shapes are still a hand made operation with welded joints.. 

Not selling in the numbers of cars and bicycles, and Beer, real mass production is probably not justified..


I can certainly understand something made in the USA once it arrives in Australia , would cost a bit more
 than  desired, down under. its a long ways to ship  stuff.

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## lloving

> Well I think it's way too expensive.
> Let's agree to disagree.


Yes i'll agree to disagree. That's the best approach. And don't spend your money on something you think is too expensive, that's your choice.

That said I applaud America's growing cottage industries supporting our love of musical instruments and the Mandolin in particular. If we are not willing to pay a fair price for these items they will not be available in the future. I am sure I may have paid what may seem to some to be "too much" for accessories I purchased directly from the builder but I have seldom been disappointed by the quality or service. 

LL

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## Polecat

My suggestion to anyone who thinks that a tone gard is too expensive would be: Build one yourself, cost it up including your time, paying yourself a fair hourly rate, and see if you really think the item is overpriced. The market for these kinds of things is _tiny_, I cannot believe that there can be any economies of scale to be achieved in the production, so to all intents and purposes it is a cottage industry. 
I looked at making myself a tone-gard, a fellow forum member kindly sent me some photos of the thing, and after looking at them, I've decided, rather than brazing a wire construction, I'll carve a "Half second back" (I hope that is comprehensible) out of pear-wood, which should attach to the mandolin with a modified viola shoulder pad clamp. I hope to have it finished within 6 months, and if it is successful I'll post some pictures in the cafe.

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## JeffD

The truth is that, if there is too much room between the costs to manufacture and the selling price, that is an opportunity for the competition. If they can be sold cheaper, at a profit, someone will come in and sell them cheaper.

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## Pete Jenner

> My suggestion to anyone who thinks that a tone gard is too expensive would be: Build one yourself, cost it up including your time, paying yourself a fair hourly rate, and see if you really think the item is overpriced. The market for these kinds of things is _tiny_, I cannot believe that there can be any economies of scale to be achieved in the production, so to all intents and purposes it is a cottage industry.


That's absolutely ridiculous. You don't build things to prove something is overpriced. If that was the case, I'd be making Gibson style mandolins.

For a start the tone gard company is tooled up to do the job and has processes in place for mass production. If I built one I would have to learn new skills,  buy new tools and source materials. It's absurd to even compare my costs of making one and tone gard's costs.

Of course there are economies of scale to be had. Buying bulk materials for a start. Even if he is only laser cutting the middle part, he's still achieving enormous savings. 

Tone Gard are charging the price the market will bear. If you want to pay that price that's your business
.

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## Eric C.

How dare Tony P., trying to make a few bucks. The nerve...

Whats a real rip off is the $5 bucks i spend on strings. Why, i bet the cost to make those things are only a fraction of that!

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## Pete Jenner

I never said it was a ripoff. Just overpriced.
...and the price of J74s over here is at least 3 times what you guys pay - that's a ripoff.

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## Eric C.

Ouch! I have to change them every two weeks.

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## Polecat

> That's absolutely ridiculous. You don't build things to prove something is overpriced. If that was the case, I'd be making Gibson style mandolins.
> 
> For a start the tone gard company is tooled up to do the job and has processes in place for mass production. If I built one I would have to learn new skills,  buy new tools and source materials. It's absurd to even compare my costs of making one and tone gard's costs.
> 
> Of course there are economies of scale to be had. Buying bulk materials for a start. Even if he is only laser cutting the middle part, he's still achieving enormous savings. 
> 
> Tone Gard are charging the price the market will bear. If you want to pay that price that's your business
> .


I get your point, Pete, I'm not sure that you get mine, though - of course I'm not suggesting that anyone can build a tone gard as cheaply and efficiently as an outfit that has been specifically set up to do the job, but it can give you an idea, and with a little imagination you can form a much better informed opinion about the pricing of a product such as a tone gard, which is in essence a few steel rods welded together (and I'm not knocking it) - the Gibson you mentioned as a comparison is, with respect, a very poor one; the skills needed to put together a primitive steel cage are relatively simple, and a lot of people already have them. To build a very good mandolin requires a much more versatile and developed skill set, which you can't learn in a couple of weeks. 
I'm interested by your claim that the Tone Gard company is "tooled up to do the job and has processes in place for mass production" - do you seriously believe there is a market large enough to support mass production? I don't.

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## Tobin

> Tone Gard are charging the price the market will bear. If you want to pay that price that's your business.


Exactly.  And why is the market willing to bear it?  Because individual players feel that the increase in performance is well worth the cost.  And they realize that if they want this increase in performance, it's cheaper to buy a product that's already engineered and made for it rather than go out and develop/build their own.  It's a simple cost-benefit analysis that buyers see as "value".  

You obviously don't think the benefit is worth the cost, and that's perfectly fine.  There is no right or wrong answer here.  But it seems to me that with all the mandolin enthusiasts who use them (including the long list of world-class professional players), there is indeed a large contingent of people who do see value.  Value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.  Or in the holder of the mandolin.  Or something like that.

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Eldon Dennis, 

Wolfboy

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## Pete Jenner

> I get your point, Pete, I'm not sure that you get mine, though - of course I'm not suggesting that anyone can build a tone gard as cheaply and efficiently as an outfit that has been specifically set up to do the job, but it can give you an idea, and with a little imagination you can form a much better informed opinion about the pricing of a product such as a tone gard, which is in essence a few steel rods welded together (and I'm not knocking it) - the Gibson you mentioned as a comparison is, with respect, a very poor one; the skills needed to put together a primitive steel cage are relatively simple, and a lot of people already have them. To build a very good mandolin requires a much more versatile and developed skill set, which you can't learn in a couple of weeks. 
> I'm interested by your claim that the Tone Gard company is "tooled up to do the job and has processes in place for mass production" - do you seriously believe there is a market large enough to support mass production? I don't.



I don't believe it's a huge market but fair enough to make it a good business.
I think the Gibson comparison is a good one but only because I have built a couple of good mandolins.
Good luck to Tony P but I won't be buying a Tone Gard unless discover I can't live without one ...also my playing skills don't warrant such luxury.

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## phiddlepicker

I like mine just fine....but I also like my Blue Chip CT-55

Kool aid?  Om nom nom nom nom nom nom nom....ask me if I care.  :Laughing: 

good gear is good gear

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hank, 

pickloser

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## dochardee

The Tone-Gard is a great product at a very fair price. Does what it claims to do, I've used one for eight years. You can always try one out by ordering from Elderly, send it back if you don't like it.

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pickloser

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## shawnbrock

I don't currently and have never owned one, but I know they work.  As lots of players do, I push my mandolin off to the side when standing and playing.  Anyone who can't hear the difference when their mandolin is pushed into their stomach when playing, as opposed to having separation between your midsection and the back of an instrument and playing, don't need a Tonegard, they need a set of ears first.  Why argue with a person who don't know that putting mass against the back of an instrument dampens it's sound?  As I said, I don't own one, though I'm thinking of getting one.  Pushing off to the side can cause stiffness in my left arm at times, and it would be worth $75 to not have to deal with that.  I'm not defending the cost, (I don't have a dog in that fight), but what about $25 to $50 for a arm rest?  Now that's outlandish to me!  But there again, I don't use those either.  I have a gadget free mandolin.  No Tonegard, arm rest, pickguard, or clip-on tuner...  Just a strap and a box.  Lord aint I old fashion...

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Mike Bunting

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## Pavo

Thanks for the constructive discussion, guys! I emailed Tony P. this morning, and just dropped off the check for him at the Post Office. I can't wait to put it on my Weber..... :Smile: 

Jeffery
Nashville, Tn.

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## shawnbrock

I took the plunge and went and got one over at First Quality today.  As I said, it would be worth $75 to help my posture, (left arm stiffness), and it was worth twice the price to me.  It reminds me of a cell phone, at first you didn't understand why someone would want such a thing, and after you get it you don't know why you lived without it.  As I said, I have always kept my stomach from muffling the back of the mandolin when standing, but I realized today that I was still not being optimal.  I was having to keep my arm more snuggled up to the top, so that even makes more difference than I expected.  I was just hoping for the Tonegard to let me have a more relaxed posture, because back muffling wasn't an issue.  It ended up helping my sound in the end though, which is always a plus.  So after playing professionally for more years than I care to think about, I finally added a gadget to my gadget free mandolin.  Good product, and I still like dealing with First Quality.  Just wish they still had the full showroom...

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Gary Watkins

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## J. Galoshes Esq.

I play sitting down ~95% of the time. I never really saw the need for a tone gard, though I always appreciated the idea behind it.

Last week I played a show standing up, and had one of the more frustrating nights of my mando-playing life. I'm sure the notes I played were ok, but I couldn't hear most of them, and when I could they sounded shrill and suffocated. 

I ordered a tone gard the next day. I can now stand up and sound _like myself_ without an awkward posture. That's really all I can ask for from a piece of metal.

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Gary Watkins, 

Paul Statman

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## Mark Seale

I wasn't sure I would like having the ToneGard on my instrument, but I was certain I didn't like the way the instrument heated up pressed against me in a Texas summer.  I got one a few weeks ago and I'm not taking it off any time soon.

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Gary Watkins

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## Gplayer

I understand the principle, but doesn't the extra weight and constraints of the contact points restrict vibration of the wood?

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## Eric C.

> I understand the principle, but doesn't the extra weight and constraints of the contact points restrict vibration of the wood?


It is extremely light, and all of the contact points are along the rim of the instrument.

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## Mark Seale

> I understand the principle, but doesn't the extra weight and constraints of the contact points restrict vibration of the wood?


Coming from the fiddle world and shoulder rests, this was my thought as well.  I can't say that it doesn't, if it does, it must be significantly less than my belly.

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## Jim Garber

I am sure that this was mentioned before, but if you are considering one, you can see what it would do by just playing your mandolin positioned away from your belly.

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## greg_tsam

I've had a TG for almost two years and 99% of that time it was on my BreedLove FF and caused no scratches and left no marks.  I've had it on my Weber BigHorn for 2 months straight and took it off to find marks in the finish from both the pad and arm on one spot.  I can't rub it out with a t-shirt so more heavy duty buffing is required.  I'm very surprised by this and just a little upset.

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## Eddie Sheehy

I've used a tone gard on my DGM1 but I felt uncomfortable about either having it on all the time or putting it on and taking it off each time I played it and the temptation to force it into its case with it on...  Mike Marshall, David Grisman, Don Julin swear by them so if you are a performer who hasn't Adam Steffey's contour, then it might be for you...
Brian Dean made a couple of custom mandolins for Joe Brent with a 'false back' which is separated from the actual back so it can vibrate...  Joe says it really makes a difference.

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## fatt-dad

maybe I've already said it, but I was an immediate convert.  Got one for my A3 too, which is a different shape.  Tony seems a great guy.  Happy to give him business.  I also got it, I guess I could have made it myself.  Not my gig and he had it already made!

f-d

+1 on the CT-55

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## greg_tsam

> ...if you are a performer who hasn't Adam Steffey's contour, then it might be for you...


Which contour would that be?  Steffey has lost a lot of weight in the past year and once was roundish and now very thin.

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## iancohen82

> To be honest, also, a video wouldn't be great for making the effect clear, as the main effect is on the volume, and it's hard to tell on youtube how loud or quiet something is.


On Mike Marshall's Mandolin Instruction CD, #1, while demonstrating how to sit and practice, he demonstrates the difference of the sound by keeping the back of the instrument off of his belly.  He then shows the Tone Gard on his mandolin.  I'm buying a Tone Gard.

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## Eddie Sheehy

> Which contour would that be?  Steffey has lost a lot of weight in the past year and once was roundish and now very thin.


You're almost there...

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## greg_tsam

Hotter or colder?   :Chicken:

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## Sword-of-Gold

Actually bmac has a valid recommendation. He explained that regardless of increased performance he did not like the way it looked. Looks of  an instrument are a valid point. The manufacturers know this and that is why they take great care in finish and design. If Gibson announced tommorow that all new Gibson mandolins will be available only in pink then there would be a huge drop in sales. Not because of performance but simply because of the way the mandolin looks. 

I am a fan of Tone Gards and I use them.

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## Terry Allan Hall

What benefit might I get from using a Tone Gard on my electric mandolin? Will it make a difference in the sound coming out of the amp?

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## Sword-of-Gold

Well I use it for my acoustic mando and it increases the tone and volume by a good amount. In my opinion, with an electric you may not really need one because you have power controls for volume and tone.

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## jmp

> What benefit might I get from using a Tone Gard on my electric mandolin? Will it make a difference in the sound coming out of the amp?


Unlikely, a magnetic pickup like the one shown in your photo just "sees" the movement of the metal strings through the magnetic field.  Your sound cavity produces small vibrations of the top surface of the body where the pickup is mounted, so it will affect the sound but it's a small secondary effect.  That's why a solid body is just fine for an electric instrument.  A tone guard would barely make a difference.

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## Terry Allan Hall

Well, I'll likely get one for the mandolin in my avatar, so I'll try it on my electric, as well, to see if it makes any difference...

Thanks, gents!  :Cool:

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## Mike Bunting

> Well, I'll likely get one for the mandolin in my avatar, so I'll try it on my electric, as well, to see if it makes any difference...
> 
> Thanks, gents!


How could it possibly make a difference?

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## jmp

> How could it possibly make a difference?


It could make a difference in purely acoustic sound waves that he'll likely be able to hear while playing it, but I don't think it will make a difference that makes a difference in what sound comes out of the amplifier.

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## Mike Bunting

> It could make a difference in purely acoustic sound waves that he'll likely be able to hear while playing it, but I don't think it will make a difference that makes a difference in what sound comes out of the amplifier.


What acoustic tones would you want to hear with a magnetic pickup stuck on top of the ax?

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## jmp

> What acoustic tones would you want to hear with a magnetic pickup stuck on top of the ax?


I'm agreeing with you.  I just won't be surprised if he comes back and says "I heard a difference"

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Mike Bunting

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## marcodamusician

I have a question for you all. I was reading on the tone gard website that the guy who makes them says that we should leave the tone gard's on our instruments because putting them on and off stresses the steel and it will lose it's strength over time or something to that effect. Anyway, how many of you follow his advice and leave the tone gard on your mandolins?

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## marcodamusician

See, he makes the comment here that I took from his website under FAQ's. 

Can the Tone-Gard™ stay on all the time, even in the case?

Yes, in 99% of all cases, including Calton cases. The Gard only adds about 3/8″ to 1/2″ to the overall depth of the instrument. You should leave the Gard on all the time, for the reason explained in the next paragraph.

Can one Tone-Gard™ be used on several different mandolins?

I really do NOT recommend it. I’m not trying to sell more Gards; it’s a matter of metal fatigue. If you keep taking the Gard on and off, over time the spring arms will fatigue, and they will eventually break. There are Gards that have been in service since 1986 with no problem, but they stayed on one instrument.

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## George R. Lane

Mine has been on my Weber Yellowstone for 2 years and no problems. I would heed Tony's advice.

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## William Smith

Well I keep my toneguard on my F-5 all the time but it does come off sometimes when I take it out of the case, with the guard on my horn it fits fairly tight in my case but it has never came off while playing or when I'm getting ready to throw the old strap around me. But I bet with regular taking it off and on that it would kinda stretch it so to speak

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## Tobin

I leave mine on all the time.  It fits in the case just fine.  And he's right about metal fatigue from regular bending.  There's really no good reason to take it off unless you just can't get it in your case.

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## mandroid

I have found  my Arthur Dent  bathrobe wearing, strap less playing, standing , is OK with a TG, (A4)

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## yankees1

Mine goes on and off with no problems

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## JeffD

> I have a question for you all. I was reading on the tone gard website that the guy who makes them says that we should leave the tone gard's on our instruments because putting them on and off stresses the steel and it will lose it's strength over time or something to that effect. Anyway, how many of you follow his advice and leave the tone gard on your mandolins?


I leave it on all the time for exactly this reason.

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## TonyP

To clarify, it's not when taking the Tone-Gard off and on the same mandolin potential problems could occur. It's when you put it on different mandolins that are different sizes. For proper fit you should tweek the two waist arms to help center the Gard. So switching around you could be bending them back and forth. And that's when you could run into problems. Unfortunately in these times you've got to try and cover all your bases. 

FYI 99% of Gards that are replaced are ones that can't be left on in the case. They get lost or sat on, or smashed in the bag they are transported in. This doesn't mean you should force them to fit it the case is too tight.

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## iancohen82

> I would have to disagree that the top players don't use it. What about Grisman, Marshall, Thile and Statman. I've seen them and they all use it.
> 
> Regards


I have Mike Marshall's instructional dvd for mandolin, and he demonstrates the Tone-Gard and encourages all us novices to get one.  I eventually did and am very happy with it.

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## iancohen82

I leave mine on all the time and now I need a new case!

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## Jim Garber

Mine fits fine on the mandolin in a TKL shaped A case. No need for a deeper case. I think the TG just adds about 1/4".

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## Mike Sutterfield

I bought one after reading this thread. Night and day difference. Ill never play without one!

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## Jstring

It looks like Tony has some competition:
http://angledright.com/collections/all

Anyone tried one of these? 

I love my tone gard, but the angledright allows the mandolin to be canted outwards for playing standing up....exactly what I'm looking for, but the darn thing costs as much as two tone-gards...

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## MikeEdgerton

> It looks like Tony has some competition:
> http://angledright.com/collections/all
> 
> Anyone tried one of these? 
> 
> I love my tone gard, but the angledright allows the mandolin to be canted outwards for playing standing up....exactly what I'm looking for, but the darn thing costs as much as two tone-gards...


*Here's* a link to a current discussion. That thread contains a link to a past discussion.

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Jstring

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## Steve Ostrander

I am a believer and posted an earlier thread when I got mine. It works, to a degree. It didn't double the dB output of my mandolin, but it did make it somewhat louder. I have no way to quantify this, since I don't have a dB meter, I can only rely on my ear. 

Try playing your mando in a corner or about 3 feet from a wall. Hold the mando against your belly which will dampen it. Then play it holding it away from your belly. You should notice the difference. That's what the TG will do for you. Especially effective if you have a big belly.

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## Alex Orr

I've used one for years, and I think it makes a noticeable difference, particularly on lower end mandolins.  I'm not sure how necessary it is or my Brentrup, but it made my old Kentucky 350 noticeably louder.  I never take it off because...well...why would I?  

I will say this: it has damaged my mandolin.  On the upper side where the rubber meets the wood, it did scuff up the finish pretty badly and leave a shallow dent of a centimeter or two.  If I was playing a new unblemished mandolin that might tick me off a good deal, however, I'm playing a fourteen year old mando that has seen at least three other owners, so it already had its share of nicks and dings.  That said, part of the reason I think it damaged my F5 was because I took it off for several weeks when it was having some work one to it and during that time I put it on an A model.  When I put it back on the F5, it took some readjusting to fit snugly and it was a few weeks after that when I noticed the dings on my F5.  So, maybe the lesson really is to not shift these things from mandolin to mandolin.

Also, my F5 wouldn't fit in a Travelite with the tone-gard.  The mando fit in the case fine, but the top couldn't shut when the tone-gard was on, so, there's also that.

Those warnings being aired, I still keep it on because it really does make the thing louder.

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## Sterling

Well, I finally bit the bullet and ordered one from Folkmusician.com last night for my Eastman 615.  The person on the website was very nice and really took his time with me. He knew about my Eastman and said that it will fit in the case with the toneguard on.   He answered a bunch of other questions and I ended up buying some different picks that he suggested .  Well, it should be here by the end of the week.  I'll let you folks know my opinion.  A very nice transaction.  I will buy more from them when I'm ready.

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## John Hill

Tone Gard arrived today. Little louder but way more resonant & lots of sustain. Doesn't have that compressed tone from being pressed against the belly. Thumbs up.

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## Londy

I think they work because I did the test myself a while ago and the sound and tone are improved. However, I get a little freaked out about the possibility of damage. I also don't think it would fit in my case with it on so that means you would have keep putting on and taking it off. Seems like that alone could cause damage. ...maybe it's me.

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## oldwave

When I was helping record Ricky Skaggs 7 or 8 years ago at a large show he left back stage with his Loar and a tone guard.  As long as you keep an eye on the plastic feet on the mount areas there should be little chance of damage.  I only use them when i stand up to play, sitting I have no need.

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## Sterling

Ok. I am naturally a sceptic. My tone guard came today from folk musician.com. It made a difference I volume immediately on my Eastman 615 and it fits in the case. Gotta love it!

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## Sterling

That would be a skeptic, I believe......

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## Mike Bunting

> That would be a skeptic, I believe......


Both spellings are acceptable.

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## sblock

So if you're not in doubt, does that make you an 'antisceptic'?  Personally, I've discovered that alcohol works very well as an antisceptic.   :Laughing:

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Elliot Luber

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## Gplayer

> Both spellings are acceptable.


Just make sure you use one of them or the context takes on a whole different meaning.  :Laughing:

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## Sterling

> Both spellings are acceptable.


It did come shrink wrapped and sealed for your protection.

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## geeterpicker

I ordered a ToneGard for my Rigel G-110 last month. It was a Christmas present, so I couldn't try it out until yesterday. First, the owner, Tony, was very communicative and helpful during and after the transaction. He really cares about the product and your experience with it. He gave me some unsolicited updates, which proved very helpful.  So I put the RigelGard, as it is called in my situration, on the G-110 and was very impressed with how much better the instrument sounded. I was aware that keeping the instrument away from the body allows it to vibrate better, but I wondered if that small space the ToneGard gives would really matter.  And it does. I've been curious about them for years and decided to go for it after seeing Grisman using it in concert back in November.

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## Elliot Luber

Just got my Angled Right Traditional (no angle) for my Eastman 605. It went on extremely easily and has stayed put, and it immediately made my mandolin noticeably louder.  I like it, it's nice and light too. I got it because my teacher recommended I get a Tone Guard (and a foot stool), and I liked that it was aluminum.

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## Elliot Luber

I mentioned in another string that I'm getting a little howl on the D string now, so I'm going to try using grommets below the bridge.

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## Pjones3

All I know is it sure is hard to find a used one for sale anywhere! :Mandosmiley:

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## mandroid

Mine was an earlier round wire  spray painted ..  they are at the powder coater Now , in the queue..

it's cheaper if I wait till someone else needing stuff done ,
 as the Heating a room sized oven with 440 v 4 phase  Power
 to a hot pizza scorching level.. is the expensive part of the process..

----------


## rljmusic13

> I have seen countless people rant and rave about the tonegards here on the forum.  But I would love to see a video or hear an audio clip.  Anyone have anything out there??"


Ever listen to Ricky Skaggs, Sierra Hull, or David Grisman? IF so you may have heard what the Tone Gard does for their sound. Tone Gard works by eliminating the dampening effect your belly does to the back of your mandolin. Vibration has to happen in music. Same with taking off the pick Guard. There is a piece of foam that contributes to a dampening effect on the front of the mandolin. Dampen the vibration and you dampen tone and volume. You want sustain and volume. Take away the dampening effect factor and you can make your mandolin tone and volume improve. 
A cast brass tail piece can also help with tone. WHY? Brass rings. Ever see a bell made out of plastic or wood or bone? There is a reason for this. Brass rings. Another thing you might want to add to if you want to go full tone and volume is a Rosa String works Antler saddle and nut. You could also go with a Zero Glide nut. ALL of these things done in combination can give you one nice volume adjustment that you may like. Tone Gard is a great addition to your mandolin. In a bluegrass jam you want all the volume you can get because you will not be plugging into an amp. You want to be heard when it is your turn to solo.  I  hope this helps.

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## pops1

My pickguard does NOT touch the top of the mandolin, nor do many guards these days. I have a brass tailpiece and have removed the cover as less weight made  the sound much better. A lot of these changes are subjective and can be positive or negative depending on the mandolin or the player. I have used a tone guard for years, but have had it off for the last 6 months. If I perform I am plugged in and get less chance of feedback with out it on the mandolin. When I was using a Schertler it was absolutely necessary to have it off or it would feedback at fairly low volumes.  When I sit I don't need it, and in my case I feel it puts pressure on the mandolin in the case. It is sitting very handy at home should I want to use it.

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## Irénée

Hi !
I have 2 tone-Gards ; one is on the "F" type, the second one on a classic flat type "Egildo Emmanuele", the spiritual son of the great Embergher (look on my picture it is the front one)  :Cool: 

Alltogether works very well, more projection, better and stronger tone  :Mandosmiley:

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## mandroid

thread revived, 4 years on..  the gloss powder coat is beautiful,  one on my A4 protects the varnish
 from my sweaty clothing too ..

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## Jeff Mando

> All I know is it sure is hard to find a used one for sale anywhere!


Same could be said for Edsels and Yugos......... :Whistling: 

Sorry, that was low, even by my standards......but hard to resist! (and almost 4 years later!)  :Grin:

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## Tmcmakin

It's a zombue thread, but here's my take...

I bought a Tone Gard and put it on my Kentucky KM272 oval hole. It made a huge difference and I have one coming now for my Collings. I'm a fan.

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