# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Flat back/top 'Portugese' mandolins

## Graham McDonald

Folks, 
While there is a good deal of information about the history of bowlback mandolins and lots about the Gibson style, I can find little or no information about the history of the flat back/top 'Portugese' mandolin, many of which seem to have been built in Italy as far as I can tell. Can anyone point me in the direction of information about when this style of instrument was built. I am assuming late 19th century for the factory produced ones, though realizing that there must have been similar instrumnets built in Portugal (and Brazil as the bandolim) for a lot longer. I suspect a critical factor might have been the availability of machine heads and metal strings.

I posted this question in the general info area, but got little response, so hoping the classical players may have more ideas.

Thanks

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## Martin Jonas

The topic has been discussed around here a few times, and I remember a very useful site that charts the development of the European flatback style of mandolins. #Unfortunately, I can't find it anymore.

From what I recall from that site, flatback mandolins with staved backs were widely built in France from the mid-19th century, more or less in tandem with the Neapolitan bowlback, and the style spread from there to Portugal, where it evolved into the present-day bandolim.

However, most of what is now called "Portuguese" style has actually German ancestry. #From the 1900 to about 1930, there was a very popular youth movement in Germany called "Wandervogel", promoting appreciation of the country's natural beauty and national folk heritage. #Thus, its main activities were hillwalking and folksinging, ideally simultaneously, and its instruments of choice were guitar and mandolin (*the* emblematic publication of the movement, forming much of its ideological core, was a songbook called "Zupfgeigenhansl", or "John of the plucked lute"; my 1913 edition of it has a illustration of guitar and mandolin on the cover and contains full harmonic arrangements of all songs for these instruments). #You can't easily play a bowlback mandolin and walk at the same time, so German luthiers developed a style of teardrop-shaped flatback mandolin with a flat top and a seven-stave slightly-bulged back. #They were loosely modelled on older styles of Portuguese mandolins, and were therefore sold under the name "Portuguese style" by their German builders, although they have only a superficial similarity to the modern Portuguese or South American bandolim (and sound nothing alike). #They were always intended as amateur folk instruments, and many of them are rather shoddy. #I'm not aware of them ever being used in a professional context (the Wandervogel movement was strictly grassroots, with no equivalent of today professional folk music performer). #I own a 1920s example, inherited from my grandfather (who was a Wandervogel), and it's a nice instrument with an interesting dry rough-edged tone.

This style of mandolin was built in Germany, by factories as well as by craft luthiers, at least until the 1960s, and is still being built in Eastern Europe. #Modern factory examples come from the Czech Republic and from Romania, such as the Troubadour Josquin. #Older German examples come up on Ebay Germany with great regularity. #Current auctions are here, here, here, here, hereand here, although none of these are particularly appealing examples of the style. #The original style had seven staves, of equal width and with parallel seams (like the modern Romanian Troubadour), but later German examples often had the staves fanning out, or had elaborate wooden inlay patterns on the back.

Martin

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## onthefiddle

Hi Graham,
I would imagine that the "Portugese mandolin" is named after the "Portugese Bandurria".
The "Portugese Bandurria" is a development from a type of eighteenth century Cittern called the "English Guitar". The cittern is one of the oldest native European instruments (instruments such as the lute were originally from the Middle East) and can trace its roots right back to the Ancient Greek Kithara.
The claims made in the Renaissance for the Citterns ancestry were often dismissed by modern musicologists, until fairly recently when a direct line of development was proved. If you look in a recent edition of the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians you will find this all explained in detail.
Basically the flat backed/topped mandolin is the most popular current incarnation of the Cittern (along with the Irish Bouzouki and the modern Cittern - both much more recently developed instruments).
You can find some pictures of older Citterns here. Be sure to look at the beautiful Girolamo di Virchi Cittern made for the Archduke Ferdinand of Tyrol. Girolamo di Virchi invented the constructed cittern (as opposed to carving the back, ribs and neck from a single piece of wood), and was probably a teacher of the famous Brescian Violin maker Gasparo da Salo. 
The Renaissance Cittern was the first instrument to have metal frets - not a simple thing at the time as Equal Temperament had not been introduced - you'll see some odd fret spacings on Renaissance Citterns, particularly on French ones where they often omitted whole or half frets to avoid disputed intervals. It was strung with metal strings made of drawn iron and brass wire. Because of these features the Neapolitan Mandolin (and all other later Mandolins) can also be said to be partially descended from the Renaissance Cittern. 
Machine heads were originally invented for the "English Guitar" in the eighteenth century. They were probably needed because of the introduction of steel strings, which are much harder to tune accurately with pegs. 
The "English Guitar" was taken by sailors from Britain to Portugal, where it flourishes as the "Bandurria". The tuners on the modern Portugese Bandurria are a variant on one of the many types of machine heads invented for the "English Guitar".
Let me know if you need any more specific information.

Jon

I seem to have been typing at the same time as Martin, whose post is much more informative regarding the more pertinent recent development of these instruments. Thanks Martin!

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## Graham McDonald

Thank you Martin and Jon

I wasn't aware of the German origin of the semi bowl back style. I had only seen the contemporary Romanian versions. 

The Portugese instruments are, I suspect, from a different origin. At least a couple of references I have found to the Brazilian bandolim claim a 16th century origin from instruments brought out by Portugese settlers, but this may be one of those convienient myths. Perhaps there is a lineage to the 17th century cittern (rather than the 18th century English guitar/cittern/waldzither) in them. 

This pic is of a mandolin I have had for 30 years or so.(it was originally a 12 string, but in a fit of youthful enthusiasm I cut the head off). The label reads 'G de Liso, Music Dealer, Port Said' It looks quite 'Portugese' or cittern like in shape.

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## Graham McDonald

This one is another 12 string mandolin which I suspect may have been made by the same maker, as the head is very similar to the other (before I trimmed it) andit has the same purfling around the soundhole. The body, thugh is very much a neapolitan bowlback shape with a cranked soundboard and a walnut (Ithink) back and sides) The maple neck is similar in shape and profile to both instruments This one doesn't have alabel, but engraved on the tortoiseshell pickguard is Magazzini Barera, Venezia, which suggest an Italian connection somewhere

What I am trying to determine is when did these instruments appear on the market. Where they a cheaper alternative to the bowlback mandolins pre-Gibson, inspired by Spanish or Porugese models, or did they appear after the Gibsons, again as a budget mandolin. Any ideas?

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## onthefiddle

Hello again Graham,

These instruments are (or were) both Mandriolas - a variant on the more normal double strung mandolin - with sets of three strings. I think this was done in an attempt to make a louder instrument, but also resulted in instruments that are harder to play. I can't pretend to have any expertise regarding Mandriolas though, but I'm sure someone here will be able to tell you more  

Jon

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## Martin Jonas

Graham,

Quite of few of the German "Portuguese" instruments were 12-string mandriolas (4 courses of three each), e.g. here. However, yours probably wasn't built in Germany, as German luthiers usually used slotted tuners. Wouldn't have been so easy to shorted the peghead with those.

Martin

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## Graham McDonald

It wasn't those two specific 12 string instruments (thank you for the term'mandriola') I am was enquiring about, but mandolins of those shapes with a flat back. What I am trying to establish is when the European makers, and I suspect a lot of Italian makers, started building them. The French/Portugese/German connection for the stave back instruments sounds logical. The Italian connection (assuming there is one) still eludes me

I shall google for that website on Eurpean flat back mandolins.

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## Arto

"I would imagine that the "Portugese mandolin" is named after the "Portugese Bandurria".

I´m not sure if the word "bandurria" has been used for a Portuguese instrument. I think bandurria is a typically Spanish instrument, with flat top and back, short neck, and 6 courses of double string tuned in fourths. They have usually metal strings, though I´ve heard gut is sometimes used for classical music. At least one source mentioned that they would originally have been bowl-back, small lute like instruments, and only later (17th c.?) made with flat backs.

The Portuguese instrument commonly thought to have derived from English guitar is usually called Portuguese guitar of guitarra Portuguesa. I don´t know if guitarras and bandolims have affected each other, but at least the body shape for guitarra and bandolim are guite similar to my eyes.

There are information and pictures about Portuguese mandolins at #Julio Pereira´s site.

Nice pictures of Portuguese string instruments
here. Notice the "cistre Portugues"!

And good information about different guitarra types, pictures, and playing techniques at
Fernandez Music.

greetings,
Arto

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## onthefiddle

Arto,

Sorry about that - you are of course correct. I was writing from memory and somehow the two instruments seem to have got muddled in there!
Let's hope that I haven't got too many others muddled up.
Best get back to my Trombolin practice now.

Jon

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## Graham McDonald

Thanks for those links to the Portugese sites. Some of the Portugese instruments are are wild and wonderful things. I found a site at www.musicaviva.com which had lots of info about various European mandolins, which may have been the source of the information about the France to Portugal to Germany travels of the mandolin. Still looking for information about Italian flatbacks, which seems a bit of a black hole. I will keep searching...

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## Martin Jonas

Musicaviva is an interesting site, but not the one I was thinking of. I should clarify that the site I remember has info on flatback mandolin evolution in France and Portugal, but not Germany -- my German info above comes from various other sources.

Martin

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## Selvaswami

Hi, Graham;

There are three Italian words mentioned.

Magazzini simply means warehouse. "Factory outlet" is a close approximation nowadays, but back in Venice of the 1890's it most likely meant the store at the front of a luthier's workshop -- "Come in and pick out an instrument."

Barera is a rather rare Italian family name. Most of them traditionally hail from northern Italy, but some live down in the Naples and Venice region.

Venezia is, of course, Venice.

So it appears a mandolin maker named Barera had his workshop and store in Venice in he late 1800's and into the 1900's, and he made bowl back mandolins.

Here's some proof: http://www.mandolinluthier.com/neapo...phabetic-1.htm

Regards,

Selvaswami

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## Hany Hayek

Cretan mandolins are flat backs. Here is a site with some nice examples:
http://www.nrompogianakis.com/en/Cretan%20mandolin.php

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## Jim Garber

Please note that this thread is over 8 years old. Graham is finishing up a monumental book on the history of mandolins and I am sure he gathered a lot more knowledge than he posts above. That doesn't mean that new info is not welcome p-- just to make you aware that you are posting on a very old thread.

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## miguel from portugal

Well.... I'm a portuguese mandolim player... so if you need help just ask.
More than the size, shape and of course sound the playing technic have big diferences. 
Most of time we play with finger tips (nails) and the low G are diferent, we don't use equal strings there but the second is a octave... more like the portuguese guitar, by that reason, we don't play the chords in up movement...
By that reasons, I change my strings to normal «international» and I'm starting to learn other technics... the portuguese mandolin, unfrotunatly, become almost a soprano voice of the portuguese guitar... a easy way of playing fado...

And some of the things that I read on this topic aren't corect...

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## Graham McDonald

I certainly never expected this thread to get revisited and cringe a little at my ignorance all those years ago  :Grin: 

But thank you for your information. It is always useful

cheers

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## whistler

> I would imagine that the "Portugese mandolin" is named after the "Portugese Bandurria".
> ...a development from a type of eighteenth century Cittern called the "English Guitar".


I think you are referring to the Portuguese _Guitarra_, which, like the _English Guitar_, is not really a guitar but a type of cittern.

Portugal does actually have its own characteristic style of mandolin (Portuguese: _bandolim_).  It is flat-topped and flat-backed, with a fairly narrow 'teardrop' shape (typically slightly broader than that of a neapolitan bowlback), but its main distinguishing feature is the very tight radius on the fingerboard (something it shares in common with the _guitarra_).  Also, like the _guitarra_, it is furnished with a bone bridge and often (although not always) 'peacock' tuners.  Here is an example  (the painted soundboard is not typical: 


The Brazilian style bandolim, like the Portuguese style, has the tightly radiused fingerboard and often also the bone bridge, but the body has a much broader outline, more like a scaled-down _guitarra_. It generally has conventional geared machine heads .

I haven't ben particularly informative on the _history_ of the flat-backed mandolin but, since the term _Portuguese_ has become associated with them, it seems plausible that Portugal might have had something to do with its development - perhaps it originally arose as a kind of fusion between the mandolin and the guitarra.  (Incidentally, in Portugal, a bowl-backed mandolin is often referred to by its Italian name of _mandolino._)

Some years ago, I was looking in a book of plans for various old stringed instruments.  Among them was one dating from the late 19th Century, called a _'descant cittern'_.  On closer inspection, this was, to all intents and purposes, a flat-backed mandolin - the scale length, number of strings and intended tuning were all the same; it even said in the text that it was intended to be played like a mandolin.  At that time, presumably, the application of the term _'mandolin'_ to anything without a round back was unheard of.  The accompanying text gave the impression that this instrument was an 'innovation', but it is possible that such instruments were around much earlier and were classified as part of the cittern family, not as mandolins.

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## Jacob

From *Acousticmelo* (nfi)

From *FolkReps* (nfi)

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