# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Alto or Treble Clef?

## Adam Sweet

Playing Mandola in a Mandolin Orchestra

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## Martin Jonas

Depends on what kind of mandola you use.  In European orchestras, the "mandola" is always what Americans call "octave mandolin", tuned GDAE.  That makes it easy to score: parts are invariably in octave treble clef, same as for the guitar.  Thus, the mandola part for Pachelbel's Canon that I posted yesterday is octave treble clef (although the little "8" is missing from the notation) and as it goes below the low C of the CGDA mandola it needs some adjustment if you want to play it on that instrument.

In US arrangements for CGDA mandola, there were at least three different conventions: alto clef, octave treble clef at pitch or transposing treble clef (i.e. you finger the notated music as if it were a mandolin but it sounds a fifth lower).  Alto clef is probably most sensible but you need mandola players who can read it.

Martin

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Adam Sweet

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## margora

"Alto clef is probably most sensible but you need mandola players who can read it."

I respectfully disagree with Martin.  He is certainly correct that for the GDAE instrument music will be notated in 8va treble.  This would comprise the vast majority of contemporary music for mandolin ensemble (from, say, Germany) which uses the octave mandola.  

For the alto instrument, alto clef only makes sense if the ensemble in question plays music more or less entirely drawn from the literature for string orchestra or string quartet (some such ensembles may have the occasional modern piece in which a part can be written in alto clef, if that is what the player reads).  Mandola parts for early 20th century US mandolin orchestra music will usually be in 8va treble (or what was referred to at the time as universal notation) or transposed so as to be readable by someone playing a mandolin.  If the ensemble rarely plays music from the string orchestra literature it makes as much sense to prepare transposed or 8va treble parts.   An ideal solution is to have mandola players who can read 8va treble and alto clef (if they can read 8va treble they can read transposed) but otherwise it depends on the music.

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Adam Sweet

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## bratsche

Naturally, I prefer alto clef.  But the ideal would be having parts that are in a digital notation format, so that they can be changed at the touch of a few buttons to print out in the player's preferred clef.  (The object is to make them most easily readable to the one reading them, right?)

bratsche

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## JeffD

The clef you play pieces you have worked on and the clef you sight read in - two different animals, I think. 

When I had a mandola I learned alto clef. I found that I could work up a piece just fine, and get it as good as I could get anything, but I never became able to sight read in alto, and the feeling I have is that it would be a gigantic task to eventually be able to, perhaps at the expense of my treble clef sight reading, at which I am strong.


If there were a mandolin orchestra around here (within an hour or so drive) I would get a mandola and try out. It is a dream of mine, actually.

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## Andy Boden

Wot bratsche said !!

@ JeffD - In my former existence as a violinist I would occasionally be asked to play viola as I was the smarta--e who could read the C clef. Actually I couldn't sight read it naturally, but I used the little trick of playing it as if I were using violin fingering with the treble clef, but transposing it two finger positions down 'on the fly' .... a bit of a weird way of thinking, but you soon get used to it. Give it a try !! (using a mandola tuned C G D A of course)

e.g. for music using the alto clef, forget the clef and pretend it's using the treble clef as for the mandolin. If you think of the note which you would finger with the second finger on the second string - in the 3rd space up on the stave - then play two finger positions below which would be the open 2nd string you would be playing the note A on the mandolin (treble clef) but the note D on the mandola (alto clef)

I trust that was as clear as mud !

The best way, of course, is just practice; after all I play mandolin using the treble clef but sing bass and play bass guitar using the bass clef without any trouble. Keyboard players also play in two clefs at the same time - it's just a case of getting used to it.

Andy

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## Jim Dalton

As a composer and arranger, I prefer alto clef but I know that not everyone is comfortable with that. I always provide both alto clef and 8vb treble clef part with all my pieces. It's easy enough in Finale to make the separate parts.

The only time I played mandola (on a borrowed instrument-I don't own one), I had to sightread alto clef. In fact, I believe it was because the mandolist wasn't comfortable enough with alto clef to get through the performance. 

Bottom line -- alto clef is not that hard. I teach my conservatory score reading students to read all 7 clefs and they get quite fluent in a short amount of time. Most musicians can become fluent in a new clef in days to weeks.

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Adam Sweet

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## Bartk1448

Hi all,
For the short period of time in which I had my bowlback mandola tuned CGDA, I read alto clef from string quartet arrangements, or I pretended my mandola was a mandocello and read bass clef music for cello.  It did not take me long to learn to read alto clef.  The lines are F, A, Middle C, E and G and the spaces are G, B, D, F.  Folks here at the mandolin cafe told me the vast majority of music written for mandola is for a tenor mandola tuned GDAE an octave below the mandolin and written in transposed treble clef.  So I bought different strings and tuned my mandola as a tenor mandola or octave mandolin.  Now that my bb mandola is tuned GDAE, I just pretend I am playing mandolin and read the vast majority of mandolin orchestra or mandolin quartet music written in treble clef transposed an octave up.

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## Bartk1448

> The clef you play pieces you have worked on and the clef you sight read in - two different animals, I think. 
> 
> When I had a mandola I learned alto clef. I found that I could work up a piece just fine, and get it as good as I could get anything, but I never became able to sight read in alto, and the feeling I have is that it would be a gigantic task to eventually be able to, perhaps at the expense of my treble clef sight reading, at which I am strong.
> 
> 
> If there were a mandolin orchestra around here (within an hour or so drive) I would get a mandola and try out. It is a dream of mine, actually.


It actually only took me a few days to learn to read alto clef when I got my mandola, but most of the music I read had no chords in it, which would compound the situation entirely.

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## margora

"Naturally, I prefer alto clef. But the ideal would be having parts that are in a digital notation format, so that they can be changed at the touch of a few buttons to print out in the player's preferred clef. (The object is to make them most easily readable to the one reading them, right?)"

Not practical unless parts are prepared from scratch (as is the case, for example, with the CMSA en masse orchestra).  If parts are bought from a commercial publisher of contemporary mandolin ensemble music, such as Trekel or Les Productions D'Oz (in Canada) or from Australia the music will invariably be written in 8va treble because the GDAE instrument is assumed.   These parts can be read on a CGDA instrument as is unless the range is below the instrument in which case notes are either omitted or passages are transposed up an octave.

If the parts are from early 20th century US mandolin orchestra music they will invariably be in 8va treble or transposed.  If, however, one is using published music for string quartet or string orchestra the viola parts will obviously be in alto clef (most of the time).   Again, as a practical matter, most viola parts lie properly on the CGDA instrument rather than on the GDAE instrument (and yes, one can use a capo on the latter but I wouldn't for a public performance) so it makes much more sense to read from the original string parts than prepare new parts.  

"As a composer and arranger, I prefer alto clef but I know that not everyone is comfortable with that. I always provide both alto clef and 8vb treble clef part with all my pieces. It's easy enough in Finale to make the separate parts."

If I were writing for the alto instrument, yes, but what matters ultimately is the instrument that the ensemble uses, not the arranger's preference.  If I am arranging for a German ensemble (or for the Providence Mandolin Orchestra, for that matter) I write the part in 8va treble because the mandola will be the GDAE instrument.  It is only in the United States that people assume that "mandola" means the CGDA instrument.


"Bottom line -- alto clef is not that hard."

Of course it is not.  Neither is 8va treble or bass clef or tenor clef or whatever.   That is why, ideally, a mandola player will own two instruments, a CGDA instrument for playing parts from the string orchestra/string quartet literature, and a GDAE instrument for reading 8va treble (even if these parts are from the early 20th century or otherwise and intended for the CGDA instrument).  Not everyone can afford to own two instruments, however, and compromises must be made.

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Adam Sweet, 

Bob Clark

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## Adam Sweet

> If there were a mandolin orchestra around here (within an hour or so drive) I would get a mandola and try out. It is a dream of mine, actually.


How far are you from Albany?  South Hadley, MA is about 70 minutes East.  We rehearse once a month (3rd Fridays) and can use some Mandola players!

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## JeffD

Adam you are about three and a half hours from me. That's a haul, especially in the winter. Don't think I haven't thought of it.  :Smile:

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## JeffD

> It actually only took me a few days to learn to read alto clef when I got my mandola, but most of the music I read had no chords in it, which would compound the situation entirely.


Do you mean that after a few days you could look at a piece in alto clef you had never seen before, and play it off the sheet? If that is what you mean, that is great.

I have some conservatory trained friends who play lower brass and woodwind. They can sight read anything in anything regardless how its written. transpose it on the fly, bend it up a step and a half, move it down a third, what ever it takes. I was just bowled over. 

I can take a piece in alto and by exerting significant effort get it, within a few hours, to the point where I can read it and play it comfortably, which is what I would think would be required of me as a mandola in an orchestra. Treble clef I can read like a novel.

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## Jim Garber

When I was playing regularly with the New York Mandolin Orchestra I switched over from 1st mandolin to mandola. I sp;ent the summer teaching myself to sight read the C-clef on the mandola. The problem was not learning the new clef but learning it on an instrument that was tuned differently from what I was used to (mandolin). I would try to think the notes as treble clef note names moved down a line or space. It worked tho I had to put aside my treble reading to avoid complete confusion.

NYMO was a c-clef orchestra. Most of the mandola music was written that way for CGDA mandolas -- yes, we played a lot of string orchestra music, but that was one advantage that we could take existing scores and play them without transposition of those viola parts. I don't recall our playing any of the "Golden Era" mandolin music.

I guess the answer to your question, Adam, would be to make either music available for the mandolists you employ. 

I decided to try reading mandola again when I thought I was attending the Aonzo workshop this year. I asked a few players and decided that the best thing to do was to learn it without converting/transposing in my head. I sat down and just started reading and with a scale chart in front of me. I also called out the names of the notes as I read and concentrated on the notes with the open strings. My goal was to learn the clef without forgetting the G-clef.

One year in the Aonzo Workshop we played Brandenburg 3 and we needed lots of mandolists to fill out all the parts. They transposed to (I guess) universal notation so we could play the correct notes while fingering the mandolas as if they were mandolins. That worked quite nicely.

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## margora

"NYMO was a c-clef orchestra. Most of the mandola music was written that way for CGDA mandolas -- yes, we played a lot of string orchestra music, but that was one advantage that we could take existing scores and play them without transposition of those viola parts. I don't recall our playing any of the "Golden Era" mandolin music."

The New York group was an example I had in mind of an ensemble that would, as a matter of course, use the CGDA instrument and have the mandola parts in alto clef because that fit the repertoire that the group performs.

"One year in the Aonzo Workshop we played Brandenburg 3 and we needed lots of mandolists to fill out all the parts. They transposed to (I guess) universal notation so we could play the correct notes while fingering the mandolas as if they were mandolins. That worked quite nicely."

I wrote a brief article about this very issue a few years ago in the CMSA Mandolin Journal.  If an ensemble rarely plays string orchestra pieces but then plays a particular work for which the CGDA instrument is the best choice (NOTE: some viola parts can be easily played on the GDAE instruments, others cannot) the viola part can be written in transposed notation, so as to be easily playable by a mandolinist not familiar with alto clef or 8va treble on the alto instrument.  The Brandenburg #3 is an excellent example; the viola parts lie too far up the neck on the GDAE instrument to be practical in a performance setting.   Much better to play these on the CGDA instrument.   But there are examples of commonly played string orchestra pieces on the mandolin where the viola parts can be easily played on the GDAE instrument (Vivaldi, for example.  Actually, these you can put on the music stand upside down and play correctly).

"I have some conservatory trained friends who play lower brass and woodwind. They can sight read anything in anything regardless how its written. transpose it on the fly, bend it up a step and a half, move it down a third, what ever it takes."

That is the level of skill one needs to be a professional musician on said instruments.   It is accomplished by developing complete mastery of reading rhythms correctly and also intervals rather than notes.  If you "intervals" rather than notes, transposition on the fly or reading in different clefs becomes a more approachable skill.

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## Bartk1448

[QUOTE=JeffD;1273208]Do you mean that after a few days you could look at a piece in alto clef you had never seen before, and play it off the sheet? If that is what you mean, that is great.


Yes, it really is not that hard to do. Now I play pieces in all three clefs.  I can also transpose up or down by fifths or fourths.  Thirds and sixths are a little tricky.

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## JeffD

Wow, I have to get working on it.

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## Jim Dalton

[QUOTE=Bartk1448;1273581]


> Yes, it really is not that hard to do. Now I play pieces in all three clefs.  I can also transpose up or down by fifths or fourths.  Thirds and sixths are a little tricky.


If by "all three clefs" you mean that you read treble, bass, and alto, that means that you can quickly learn some transposition by thirds/sixths:

If you have something in treble clef that you need to transpose UP a third (down a 6th), imagine the new key signature and read as if it were in bass clef. For example, a piece in C major that you wish to transpose to E flat. Read bass clef (which makes the Cs into Es and shifts everything to the appropriate pitch, of course) and think in the E flat signature of three flats. Done.

You can use alto clef to transpose UP A SECOND. Example: to transpose a treble clef piece in A major to B flat major, read as if in alto clef which makes all the As into Bs and think in the B flat key signature.

If you need to transpose down a third, you would need to know soprano clef, which puts the C on the bottom line.

This is why we use 7 clefs (by "we" I mean those of us who do. I teach this to my score reading classes at the Boston Conservatory) - one for each letter-name transposition. The 2nd and 3rd new clefs are always the hardest. By the time you get past that, you are used to reading by interval and the new ones fall into place easily.

The bottom line is that by using this method, you aren't "transposing" in the traditional sense. You are simply sight reading a different clef.

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## JeffD

> Yes, it really is not that hard to do. .


I have been playing around with this this evening, and well....  yea, it is kind of really hard to do.  

Like anything else when have it down, I will wonder what the heck was so hard.

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## Bartk1448

[QUOTE=Jim Dalton;1273895][QUOTE=Bartk1448;1273581]

If by "all three clefs" you mean that you read treble, bass, and alto, that means that you can quickly learn some transposition by thirds/sixths:

If you have something in treble clef that you need to transpose UP a third (down a 6th), imagine the new key signature and read as if it were in bass clef. For example, a piece in C major that you wish to transpose to E flat. Read bass clef (which makes the Cs into Es and shifts everything to the appropriate pitch, of course) and think in the E flat signature of three flats. Done.

You can use alto clef to transpose UP A SECOND. Example: to transpose a treble clef piece in A major to B flat major, read as if in alto clef which makes all the As into Bs and think in the B flat key signature.

If you need to transpose down a third, you would need to know soprano clef, which puts the C on the bottom line."


Oh, yes, I forgot that I can do that too, I used to do it when I played viola and classical guitar in high school.  It is pretty easy if you only have one line of music, like with woodwinds or brass, or even some mandolin scores, but becomes exponentially harder with chords or multiple lines of music like with organ or piano.

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## Jim Dalton

> It is pretty easy if you only have one line of music, like with woodwinds or brass, or even some mandolin scores, but becomes exponentially harder with chords or multiple lines of music like with organ or piano.


You'd be surprised how quickly chords and counterpoint become easier when you do it frequently enough.

My wife is a singer and often asks me to transpose accompaniments. On the piano, it's really just a different clef in each hand (which is what usually happens anyway). I'm primarily a guitarist and mandolinist with degrees in composition but teaching score reading for 7 years has sharpened up all those skills in just a couple of hours a week.

Reading more than two staves at a time also makes regular sight reading even stronger.

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