# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Shady Grove

## Earl Gamage

Hello folks

I am new to the mandolin but this is kind of a music question I guess.

When I first heard Shady Grove on a cd I thought it sounded like it was in a minor key.  The I saw it written in G with just G & D chords, no minors.

Then I found out reading or listening somewhere it's a modal tune and the chords are G & C, which is what I think sounded like a minor key.

How do you play Shady Grove and is it ever in a minor key?

Hope this makes some sense.

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## Jim Broyles

Yes, there are at least two version, one minor and one major.

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## Eddie Sheehy

I know it as Matty Groves - an old English ballad.  Matty Groves is in Am and is very similar to Shady Grove.  I picked it up from friends of mine - Jeff and Vida -  that used to play an Irish pub in New Orleans before Katrina.  The G modal of Shady Grove is nicely complemented by Matty Groves when played together.

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## onassis

I believe the Griman/Garcia version from the CD "Shady Grove" is in Dm, with the chords being Dm, C and F. I've also heard versions that were major key, just can't remember any examples right now.

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## foldedpath

This song is old enough to be adapted many different ways. I first heard it many years ago as Matty Groves. Look up the lyrics if you're interested; it's very different from the adapted American OldTime/Bluegrass version. It's one of those ancient ballads about class differences, sex and betrayal.

One of the bands I play in does it as Shady Grove in A minor, partly because it's one of the common keys for the tune, and partly because that's an easy key for me in the the open E tuning I use on bottleneck slide guitar... just to confuse things.  :Smile: 

Here's my favorite YouTube version of the tune, with Tim O'Brien and the Chieftans. It gets a little Riverdance-ish at the end, but it's still good:

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## groveland

Define what you mean by the term "modal".   :Smile: 


This is the theory board, after all...

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## Earl Gamage

Sorry, I don't really know what the term modal means.  And I am not ignorant, at least totally, of theory.

That's just how the G-C version of Shady Grove was described to me.

Thanks for great responses though.

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## Jim Broyles

Bill Monroe did it major, Doyle Lawson& Quicksilver  did it just like Bill only faster. Modal tends to mean "Minor with a flat seven chord and a IV major chord" in most circles where amateur musicians get together and jam.

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## gregjones

No theory question but, Grisman used a mandola on the Garcis/Grisman version.

In John McGann's transcription the C string is not used until the last bars of the song as it ends.  Every other note is done on the three high strings of the 'dola.

Question:  Couldn't this all have been done on the three low strings of a mandolin?  I am fairly sure Dawg could have came up with a wonderful ending without *having* to close it on the C string.  

He hasn't ever had a problem before. :Confused:

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## mannc385

We do it starting with Em which is pretty much the same as Onassis so it's up to the singer.

Em                 D
Shady Grove my little love.
Em                   G
Shady Grove I know.
Em                 D
Shady Grove my little love.
     Em           D          Em
I'm bound for Shady Grove.

Hope this helps.  Been awhile so I'm not sure of the words.  There are so many versions. Just repeat the chords whichever you chose and repeat over and over for verses and chorus.

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## mannc385

I see where I posted and the chords moved over to the left.  Sorry, should be able to hear the chord change on the line.

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## Matt DeBlass

I've always done it as "Matty Groves" and in Em...

Modal, to my very limited understanding, essentially means you use the same scale, say a C-major with no sharps or flats, but start on a different note. For example, D-dorian is like Dm but it uses a plain ol' B instead of B-Flat. 

A lot of traditional music tends to float around in modes, partially because of the characteristics of many folk instruments and partially because it just does, do ye got a problem wi' tha?

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## GTG

Major and minor are modes - Ionian and Aeolian, respectively. But yeah, when casual acoustic musicians get together to jam, 'modal' usually means Mixolydian (if it's based on a major sound), which has a flat 7 (compared to the major scale) - example 'Little Maggie'. If a tune is based on a minor sound, the mode is usually Dorian, which means a sharp 6 compared to the minor scale - example 'Swallowtail Jig'

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## Earl Gamage

Mannc385, I thought those were sure some quick chord changes.  I'll play it that way and see where they fall.  Thanks for the hint.

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## GTG

> Mannc385, I thought those were sure some quick chord changes.  I'll play it that way and see where they fall.  Thanks for the hint.
> 
> 
> GTG, does a flat 7 give it a minor sound?  I'll try it next time I pick up an instrument, but I'm supposed to be working now hahahaha.
> 
> Matt, that's how a friend of mine describes modal also.  But it seems to me sharpening the bb to b (if you are in dm)  would take away the minor sound for sure.
> 
> I'm trying to learn so thank's for the additional posts.  Learning to me is like stacking sheets of paper, if I can stack enough pretty soon I'll have a big pile.


No, a flat 7 in a major scale doesn't give it a minor sound (a flat 3rd does). A flat 7 gives it a dominant 7 sound, or mixolydian sound. Let's see, another common tune with that sound would be Old Joe Clark - based on the A major scale (3 sharps in the key sig.), but with a G-natural figured prominently in the melody (and most versions go to the G major chord at least once in the tune). 

Playing a tune in Dm with a B natural (sharp 6) will not give it a minor sound. It will still have minor chords associated with it (because of the flat 3rd), but the B natural is associated with the Dorian scale. 

This all sounds complicated, but the differences are pretty clear when you hear them.
D E F# G A B C# D (D major, or Ionian scale; D major chord tones 1,3,5 (D F# A))
D E F# G A B C D (D mixolydian, but still D major chord tones)
D E F G A Bb C D (D minor, or Aeolian scale; D minor chord tones 1,3,5 (D F A))
D E F G A B C D (D dorian; D minor chord tones (D F A))

As mentioned, the third determines if a triad is major or minor, so several different modes can sound good ("very little/no tension") over major chords (Ionian (major), Lydian, Mixolydian) and minor chords (Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian (minor), Locrian (best over minor flat 5 chord)).

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## EdHanrahan

And some use the term "modal" to describe chords that are neither major nor minor because they consist of only the root & the 5th, no 3rd (that defines major or minor).

Several months ago, someone here (maybe even on this thread?) said something like: "The '70s heavy metal rockers think they invented the power chord, but some 8th century Gregorian monks might beg to differ."   Love it!

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## mannc385

Yeah, when I saw the post I said, "dat ain't gonna work".  The D change is on the word "my".  The G will be on the word "know".  Last line D change on the word Shady then back to Em.

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## Jim Ferguson

I usually play it in Em, D, & G OR Dm, C, F.  
Shady Grove is one of my al-time favourites and I love the minor chord versions.
Peace,
Jim

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## Ronnie L

On Mountain Soul by' Patty Loveless' There is a great up tempo Major key version called "Pretty little miss" which I love stringing on after the traditional song. Great Albumn too.

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## Aran

Played Shady Grove in a pub in Dublin last night as it goes...  :Mandosmiley: 

Dm / C / Dm / F / C / C / Dm

As close as possible to the way Grisman and Garcia version goes would be my favourite approach.

The Bluegrassy major version sounds really too happy and cheesy to my ear.

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## Earl Gamage

Agree with you Aran,  I'll try it your way too.  Cool to have a connection to Irish pub music.

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## mandocrucian

FYI - *Hot Solos For Bluegrass Mandolin* (book w/cd) includes _"Shady Grove"_ in the key of Dm: Melody (clawhammer style mando), Harmony (clawhammer), plus four 16 bar solos.  (Also includes multiple solos for 5 other tunes: _"Wabash Cannonball". "East TN Blues", "John Hardy", "Cripple Creek"_ and _"In The Pines"_)



NH

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## AlanN

And a very good book it is.

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## G'DAE

Dm                    C              Dm                      

Lips are red as a bloomin rose eyes are the prettiest brown

F                     C

She's the dar'lin of my heart

Am                       Dm

The sweetest gal in town

I'm not sure how to get the chords over the words correctly. (sorry!)

note: The Am really makes it!

Bob.

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## G'DAE

ARAN That last C should be the Am. Try it!
Bob.

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## Earl Gamage

I hear:

Lips Dm
bloomin C
Brown Dm

she's F
of C

The Am
town Dm


My ear's just getting able to place chord changes so if that's not right it's ok to correct me.

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## G'DAE

Not quite.EarlG.

Lips Dm
Bloomin C
Eyes Dm
Shes F
of C
The Am
town Dm

looks like you put one in late.
Bob.

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## Earl Gamage

Ok, I like that last arrangement.   That leads me to the next question:  In Dm can you/should you use the F pentatonic scale (leaving out 4&7) but lower the A to Ab to solo?

I tried the F scale but it sounds too happy against the Dm.

I think I just realized I have to change to a minor pentatonic scale with a D root, is that correct?

Still wonder if my lowering the 3rd note idea would work though.

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## mannc385

Something a little different also, just having fun with it.  The others work but just played around and heard this.

(Dm) Lips are red as a (C) blooming rose

(Dm) Eyes are prettiest (Am) Brown

(F) She's the darl'in (C) of my heart

(Dm) The sweetest (Am) gal in (Dm) town.

Probably something I got left over from doing it Bluegrass.

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