# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  "May I join the Irish music session?"

## allenhopkins

_I_ thought it funny; perhaps bodhran players might take offense...



Very few seisuns I attend feature _The Unicorn._

----------


## abuteague

This one is good too.

----------


## Randi Gormley

"No. Go away."

So, so true!

----------


## michaelpthompson

> _I_ thought it funny; perhaps bodhran players might take offense...


I'm a bodhrán player, and not only do I not take offense, I agree wholeheartedly with the premise that you can't buy a bodhrán one day and play in a session the next. It's hilarious.




> Very few seisuns I attend feature _The Unicorn._


I've played _The Unicorn_ at a few sessions, but ours are more liberal than many. I've even played it on a mandolin, so we've got some mandolin content.

----------


## EdSherry

An old friend, Cody Grundy, used to have a shop (Hobgoblin Music) in South San Francisco that specialized in Irish instruments.  One day a fellow who said he was a percussionist came in wanting to buy a bodhran, and asking Cody to show him the basics of bodhran technique.

When the fellow said that he wanted to play it at a session that night, Cody refused to sell him a bodhran, telling him (in effect) that he needed to woodshed with it for quite a while before inflicting his playing on others.  

Unfortunately, I've been to too many sessions where people seem to think "you folks look like you're having a great time; I have a bodhran; I should be allowed to join in because it's an 'open' session."

----------


## Bertram Henze

We always forgive naive newbies who jump into our session like lemmings from a cliff.
It's the obnoxious regulars who refuse to learn that get roasted. I remember one Bodhran player who can look back to 20+ years of bad playing and be proud of it - until he was told to stop playing with very explicit words.

If you really want to join a session undisturbed by talent, you should choose to sing, with the following advantages in your favor:

- no expenses for an instrument (specialize in strictly traditional a-capella in gaelic)

- singing is supposed to be a solo number anyway, therefore no problem with timing and pitch; the few musicians who try to accompany you at first will soon learn that they are no match for you  :Wink: 

Now, someone would have to give me a clue - what is that "Unicorn" thing you're talking about - sure you don't mean this one?  :Disbelief:

----------


## CelticDude

Bertram,

I believe he means this:



It's cute, but only Irish because they have an Irish accent...

----------


## JeffD

Yea, they did the version everyone remembers. Shel Silverstein wrote it.

----------


## CelticDude

> Yea, they did the version everyone remembers. Shel Silverstein wrote it.


Shel Silverstein?!?  I didn't know that.  Thanks.

----------


## Bertram Henze

Sounds like an Oirish version of "Old MacDonald Had a Farm"... (feeling relieved - I didn't miss out on this one)

----------


## michaelpthompson

Now you may be thinking of this one:

----------


## steve V. johnson

On our first trip to Ireland we were caught up in a local fleadh and welcomed (sort of ... mugged, really) into the locals' session in a pub.  My wife, Min Gates, is a really fine bodhrán player and she was getting on brilliantly with the women in the session.  In a momentary break between sets a big fella came over and asked Min to let him play her drum for one set and she said no, her reflex and default response, but she looked over at the local gals.  One leaned over, and with all the others in concurrence, said in a clearly audible stage whisper, "Every sod's a bodhrán player after eleven, love.  Never let him touch it at all."

----------


## Nick Triesch

I went to play at an Irish session a few times.   When I got there they told me I could not use tab or read music to learn the melody.  They also told me I could not be creative.  That you had to play the song note for note the way it was written. I could play the mandolin just as well as the leader but he was very rude as was his helper.  There are two kinds of acoustic Irish music...  session and Irish bar music.  I have heard both and I will take the fun music with a pint anytime!   Nick

----------


## liestman

I disagree that you cannot use tab or sheet music to LEARN a tune (using it in a session is a different matter). I also disagree that you cannot be creative. Not as creative as in a jazz jam - you still need to be actually playing the tune, but you have lots of liberty (and should exercise it) with how you ornament the tune, while staying within the generally accepted limits of the genre. If you do that, it IS fun music and may well involve a pint!

----------


## foldedpath

Agreeing with John here; there are few Irish trad sessions aside from beginner-level ones, that would allow or encourage sheet music *at* the session. Learning tunes is best done at home, at least the kind of learning that involves sheet music.

Regarding improvisation, at the most basic level, you can decide where and how to articulate ("ornament") individual notes. Ornamentation doesn't change the actual notes in the tune, and the mechanics of articulation vary among instruments. Fiddles and flutes don't articulate notes the same way as tenor banjos or mandolins, and different people will throw ornaments at different times. But it all works because the same core notes are being played together. 

At a deeper level, some players like to slightly alter a phrase here in there, staying well within the mode of the tune, and never doing it in a way that clashes with the other players. This is one of those "learn the rules before you try to break them" things. And it's still very subtle. You might not even hear another player doing it in the mix of other instruments. It's taken me a couple of years to get to the point where I can throw in some ornaments here and there, but I'm still far from being able to think fast enough, and know the tunes well enough, to do this other type of variation within a tune. Especially after the second pint!

Anyway, it's fine to prefer other styles of music, like the Clancy Brothers' type of Irish drinking songs and ballads. Session playing isn't for everyone. And some people mistake the attempt to preserve traditional playing styles as elitism or arbitrary exclusion. I think it's helpful to at least try to understand how a genre works, even if you don't like it that much. Then you can gripe about it from an informed perspective. 
 :Wink: 

Speaking of which (this was posted here before, but it fits the current theme):

----------


## michaelpthompson

> I went to play at an Irish session a few times.   When I got there they told me I could not use tab or read music to learn the melody.  They also told me I could not be creative.  That you had to play the song note for note the way it was written. I could play the mandolin just as well as the leader but he was very rude as was his helper.  There are two kinds of acoustic Irish music...  session and Irish bar music.  I have heard both and I will take the fun music with a pint anytime!   Nick


One of the things that happens with sessions in America, is that some of the people begin to think the music is set in stone. I've been told that sessions in Ireland are much more open to innovation that some of the ones you find in the U.S.

Having said that, telling you not to use tab or sheet music, but also not to be creative, is contradictory. You cannot play most Irish TRAD tunes "note for note the way it was written" because originally, it was not written. TRAD music was customarily passed along aurally. You learned it by listening, then playing along, and finally, leading out. Each session tends to develop its own ways of playing the tunes because it's not a written tradition. There was no Mozart or Beethoven writing the notes for the first players.

The tradition of not allowing tabs or sheet music at sessions is actually an attempt to preserve this traditional way of passing along the music. Purists believe that being limited by the notes on a page prohibits a person from playing the traditional folk music properly. Some traditional timing and ornamentation cannot be adequately transmitted or learned from tabs or sheet music. That's not to say it's not a good way of learning the basics of the tune before you come to the session, but you may find yourself at odds with the other musicians (as in out of step with them) if you try to play from tabs or sheet music during the session itself.

Irish session music has its own traditions, which are not the same as bluegrass or old-time jam sessions. You don't solo or take breaks in an Irish session. Everyone plays the same basic tune, or augments it with rhythm. You try to improvise and you screw that up. If that's what you meant by "be creative" then they were right to tell you not to do it.

You can certainly get creative with this music, but not in the same way as you may have experienced in other sessions. First, you need the foundation of knowing the tune; then you can work on ornamentation and such. It's kind of like paying your dues to play the blues. You don't just wander into a blues jam and wander all over the melody being "creative" because that clashes with what the other players are doing and with the tradition.

It's quite possible to have a session of "fun music with a pint" if you know the tradition and how to blend with it. The leaders may have seemed rude, and indeed, might have BEEN rude for all I know, but that comes from their exasperation with clueless people wandering into a session and thinking they can just plink along without knowing the music. Don't know if you're in that category or not, but there are plenty of them out there and they drive session people crazy.

I love session music and playing in sessions, but having said that, I play a lot more "Irish bar music" because I'm better at it. I've also been places where the two were successfully fused. I'm not sure you can limit acoustic Irish music to only two kinds, but holding forth on some pub songs in a bar is certainly a different experience than a TRAD session.

BTW, we went round and round this same subject in another thread, which might be really enlightening for you.

----------


## foldedpath

> One of the things that happens with sessions in America, is that some of the people begin to think the music is set in stone. I've been told that sessions in Ireland are much more open to innovation that some of the ones you find in the U.S.


Sure, and that's  because the ratio of people in Ireland who understand the music is so much higher, not to mention being state-supported by outfits like Comhaltas to encourage and preserve the tradition. They can _afford_ to be relaxed. They don't need the barbed wire and cattle prods that some sessions in the USA need, to keep from being overwhelmed by clueless OldTime or folk music players who want to "join in the fun" without trying to learn what the music is all about. 

There's a related thread right now on thesession.org, about how sessions in Ireland are often more relaxed about the occasional pop song or other departures from tradition:

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/27644

----------


## allenhopkins

> ...they told me I could not use tab or read music to learn the melody.  They also told me I could not be creative.  That you had to play the song note for note the way it was written...


OK, confused here.  If no one was using tablature or sheet music at the seisun (which is universally my experience at seisuns), how can you "play the song note for note the way it was written," if it wasn't written at all?

As a couple posters have said, tab and sheet music is a good way to learn the basic melody, *at home before going to the seisun.*  You then show up with the tune in your head, and listen to the way it's played by that particular group, which may differ slightly or significantly from the way you've learned it.  Knowing the basic "structure" of the tune enables you to adapt your playing to fit in with the others.

Mandolin is an excellent instrument to learn tunes on at a seisun, because it can switch from melody to rhythm in a way that a fiddle, flute, or guitar can't do as well.  You can play melody on the tunes whose melodies you know; you can play rhythm behind the tunes whose melodies you don't know, if you can figure out the chords "on the fly."  As you hear the tunes more times, you find yourself picking up the melody.

I'm a bit of a "maverick" at some seisuns, 'cause I like to put in harmonies here and there, especially if I'm playing octave mandolin or mandola; I'll add bass runs or mid-range harmonies, sometimes even counter-melodies, but I try to keep the volume modest and not to "detract" from the melody.  So far I've avoided expulsion, and seldom get the "fisheye" from seisun leaders.

One of the local seisuns has a "learners' hour" before the regular seisun begins, and even a 30-minute allotment for singers, before the hard-core types get started.  Probably a really good idea.  Also, if you have a fiddle club in your area, they often have segment of their meetings blocked off for tune learning, with slower speeds and the use of sheet music and/or tab, and they also often play a variety of Celtic tunes -- usually just the basic ones, but it's a way to get started.

Good luck; if none of these ideas work, one can always take up bodhran...

----------


## michaelpthompson

An interesting thread indeed foldedpath. Some good points, though in true session.org tradition, they quickly get buried under a barrage of sniping insults. I do think we've discussed the issue in a more thoughtful and substantive manner.  :Smile: 

I often participate in what would be better described as a song circle than a session. It's called "Celtic Jam" and we tend to play a lot of ITM tunes, but we don't mind straying out of that genre on occasion. It's a blast, but I tell people ahead of time that it's not a traditional session. We often play from the Fiddler's Fake Book or even pass around sheet music.

I love variety in my music, including TRAD, which does have some pretty strict rules, and for good reason. But right now, I'm listening to Dropkick Murphys.  :Wink:

----------


## foldedpath

> An interesting thread indeed foldedpath. Some good points, though in true session.org tradition, they quickly get buried under a barrage of sniping insults. I do think we've discussed the issue in a more thoughtful and substantive manner.


Oh yeah, it's a real snake pit over there.  :Grin: 

On the other hand, it's a tremendous source of information from the more knowledgeable posters. It  just takes time to figure out who to pay attention to, and who to ignore among the regulars. The tune database is great, especially the comments tab for background info and alternate versions. It's the first place I go when researching a new tune that perks up my ears.




> I love variety in my music, including TRAD, which does have some pretty strict rules, and for good reason. But right now, I'm listening to Dropkick Murphys.


Cool. The music I listen to is all over the place too. I'm lucky that my S.O. plays this fiddle, and when playing at home we very often get into some weird stuff that wouldn't fly at a session. There's a time and place for everything!

----------


## allenhopkins

Another quick point about seisuns in which I've participated: sometimes one of the melody players will launch into a tune that no one else knows.  Everyone will just sit and listen, while he/she plays it through (usually three times), making no attempt to join in -- well, perhaps a rhythm player will attempt some quiet back-up.  When the tune's over, there'll be a lot of "what tune is that, where'd you get it, sounds a bit like (_fill in the other tune here_), makes me think of (_this tune_ -- player launches into the other tune)," etc.  No one's embarrassed to not know the tune, and the player doesn't feel embarrassed that he/she brought the general seisun to a halt by playing an unfamiliar piece.

Now, if someone started a tune that was "out of bounds" from what was generally being played -- say, _Orange Blossom Special_ -- there'd be a general uncomfortable feeling, fidgeting and departures to the bar for a refill.  But there's no shame attached, at least in my experience, to either not knowing a tune, or knowing a tune no one else knows.  If a person showed up at a seisun and played tune after tune that no one else could play, that person might quickly overstay his/her welcome, but exceptions to universal participation are more generally tolerated, in my experience, that the common picture of a rigidly controlled "group mind" seisun.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> sometimes one of the melody players will launch into a tune that no one else knows.  Everyone will just sit and listen, while he/she plays it through (usually three times), making no attempt to join in -- well, perhaps a rhythm player will attempt some quiet back-up.  When the tune's over, there'll be a lot of "what tune is that


Reflects my experience, but it only works out if that single player is good enough to raise curiosity and the tune contains enough reusable elements from other tunes that players recognize (and make them wonder all the time where they've heard it before). I was  successful with Mulqueen's  once, the others even had me play it slowly a few times over so they could learn it. There are other tunes that make the rest just roll their eyes ("he's playing the crazy one again") - Grand Marais is one of those. But that's tradition at work.

It should be the exception from the rule, though. There's nothing like a small group of players who only do the exotic tunes they've practised among themselves to destroy a session.

----------


## Nick Triesch

Here in San Diego I was invited to play in a session and the leaders told us that no sheet music was allowed.  I'm not kidding.  They told us you must play the song only after hearing it played by other players.   Note for note.     No tab!  No notes! No music.    I kid you not!  I have never been to a group of folks so rude in my life!  I would rather go to the dentist and have a root canal.   Even if I found a sesson that let me read tab or music I would never do it again.  Just a strange stuck up bunch of folks playing very un interesting music.  No one would laugh,  no one would talk,  just dead on serious. Even if you go to a pub that plays the music they have a list of rules you must read before you go and listen.  That is no problem,  I will go listen to the happy drunken bar tunes!    Nick

----------


## Jill McAuley

> Here in San Diego I was invited to play in a session and the leaders told us that no sheet music was allowed.  I'm not kidding.  They told us you must play the song only after hearing it played by other players.   Note for note.     No tab!  No notes! No music.    I kid you not!  I have never been to a group of folks so rude in my life!  I would rather go to the dentist and have a root canal.   Even if I found a sesson that let me read tab or music I would never do it again.  Just a strange stuck up bunch of folks playing very un interesting music.  No one would laugh,  no one would talk,  just dead on serious. Even if you go to a pub that plays the music they have a list of rules you must read before you go and listen.  That is no problem,  I will go listen to the happy drunken bar tunes!    Nick


Well Nick, if you're happy to generalize about ALL sessions being made up of "strange stuck up folks playing uninteresting music.." then the session world and yourself are better off without each other. 

If I was going to a session I'd never been to before I wouldn't even bring an instrument - I'd bring a recording device and ask if it was ok to record the tunes that were unfamiliar to me, then afterwards I'd go home and learn the tunes. Pretty straightforward really.

Cheers,
Jill

----------

davidwood

----------


## walt33

I went once with a friend to a beginner's session in Northampton, Mass., where they used tab and notation. Everybody did. As a beginner I kind of liked it, because even though I don't read, I could see the chord changes and keep track of where we were. Eventually my friend stopped going, because they relied on, no _needed_, the paper in front of them and never seemed to internalize the tunes. These days I prefer to woodshed at home with slow-down software and learn by ear. But then I seem to play everything at half speed! ;-)

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Here in San Diego I was invited to play in a session and the leaders told us that no sheet music was allowed.  I'm not kidding.


Funny, though. Never experienced something like that. We usually judge by the result, not by the method. I'd not attend a session featuring a drill instructor sergeant - it just doesn't go with the basic character of that music and indicates that those "leaders" haven't understood it either.

----------


## michaelpthompson

I've been in sessions where sheet music is not allowed. Unbeknownst to some people, they have good reasons for the prohibition.

Traditionally, this music was passed on from player to player. You listened to a tune, worked on playing along, finally you could say you "know" it. Sheet music is an attempt to shortcut that process. It has advantages and disadvantages. First and foremost, it cannot completely transmit the nuances of traditional tunes. Traditional players often use unique ornamentation timing. Many times this even varies from session to session, each having its own customary ways of playing different tunes.

Many people believe that sheet music gets in the way of enjoying the music. This is not classical, where a composer came up with certain notes and phrases and wrote them down in standardized ways for performance by people trained in those ways. This music came up from the common people, a shared aural tradition, passed along in pubs and kitchens as part of community life. It was never constrained by notes on a page until somebody attempted to transcribe it. Sheet music is an artificial innovation in this tradition, a later addition, not original.

There are many reasons why session leaders don't allow sheet music. "it just doesn't go with the basic character of that music." It's forced and artificial, like putting a bird in a jar and wondering why it doesn't soar like it used to.

Don't get me wrong, I play in sessions where sheet music is the rule, rather than the exception. We have a great time. But there are always discussions like, "Use this book, not that one, the versions are different." or "Those of you who know this tune, be aware that the B part comes first in this version." It gives us the ability to share music that we have in common without growing up together with it in the same small community. But it has its limitations, and not everyone is comfortable with that.

I once started a session with some friends. We actually drew up rules on a written sheet, to protect the integrity of our music. There's a thread on thesession.org that was referred to earlier by foldedpath. Some of the posters there described experiences of traveling a couple of hundred miles, or making significant time commitment to attend an Irish traditional session. Imagine going to all that effort only to find your session taken over by people playing Beatles songs or Stairway to Heaven. Session rules may seem restrictive, but like that drill sergeant, we have them for many good reasons. If you don't understand that, perhaps you haven't understood this music either.

----------


## Gelsenbury

> Don't get me wrong, I play in sessions where sheet music is the rule, rather than the exception. We have a great time. But there are always discussions like, "Use this book, not that one, the versions are different." or "Those of you who know this tune, be aware that the B part comes first in this version."


That particular phenomenon happens without sheet music too. Through whichever medium you might have learnt the tune, you have only learnt to play it one particular way. Adjustments or re-learning are required when you get together with other people who play it differently. 

As a beginner, I find sheet music helpful because it helps me practise tunes on my own. Memorising picking patterns doesn't come naturally enough for me yet to be successful at ploys such as going to a session, learning a tune by ear, and then having it sufficiently established in my mind to practise at home. I need some form of written record, and "dots" suit me better than tab or abc. As I become more experienced, I'm sure I'll be able to play more by ear and from memory. 

But that doesn't mean that I'll take the sheet music to the session with me. To play with fluency, I must memorise the tune and be able to play it without looking at paper or a screen. It's just that I memorise it from printed music. 

PS: Am I missing something culturally specific here? Where does this glut of threads started by colourful cartoon characters with monotonous voices and vaguely amusing conversations come from? ?(

----------


## Randi Gormley

We use sheet music for our beginner session, but not for anything else. What we've found is that some people who rely on the sheet music rely on its configurations and have even begun arguing with more advanced players that they're doing the tune wrong because the sheet music requires a dotted eighth or something or a specific ornament or a specific note and the more advance player isn't doing it exactly as written. So that's another downside of having sheet music at a session. OK for learning, but it's (as has been said many times in better ways) more an indication than a cut-in-stone requirement. I use sheet music for learning (helps me figure out where to start, for one thing) but I'd never take music to a session. I play what I know and listen when I don't know and have a great time just enjoying the music. I'm also pretty non-competitive, which may be one reason why I don't find the rules rub me the wrong way.

----------


## Loretta Callahan

I spent about 15 years going to Irish sessions before I even considered picking up the mandolin; silly me. I just love listening at sessions.  I'm sure all sessions have their own style, and I did see some folks referring to a song list, or occasionally glancing at music, but generally folks seemed to just start tunes, or follow a leader.

I did, however, go to lots of kanikapilas, which is kind of like an Irish session Hawaiian style, but with singing and playing.  There was one where these scary ladies would come out and make everyone sit in an assigned seat.  One lady grabbed my 1930 Gibson uke and started bitching about my E string and tuner.  She was lucky it wasn't a session because I was quite sober; no pints consumed! So I kindly took my uke and left .... never to return.  Had it been a session, she might have been wearing a pint or two on her head.   I mean really, what kind of person grabs someone's instrument without asking.

----------


## michaelpthompson

> I went once with a friend to a beginner's session in Northampton, Mass., where they used tab and notation. Everybody did. As a beginner I kind of liked it, because even though I don't read, I could see the chord changes and keep track of where we were. Eventually my friend stopped going, because they relied on, no _needed_, the paper in front of them and never seemed to internalize the tunes. These days I prefer to woodshed at home with slow-down software and learn by ear. But then I seem to play everything at half speed! ;-)


I used to have a copy of the Fiddler's Fake Book, from which many of the tunes in our "Celtic Jam" were taken. I loaned it to my daughter and it was lost. I didn't replace it for this very reason. I found I needed to wean myself off dependence on written music. I was not really interacting with the tunes, I was just following the chord charts.

I'm still not there, but I've progressed a lot in being able to hear the chord changes and such. Now that I play mandolin in addition to guitar, I'm going to work more on melody, but losing the sheet music was a step in the right direction. It's a good for getting started, and for learning tunes outside the actual session, but can really become a crutch during the session.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Imagine going to all that effort only to find your session taken over by people playing Beatles songs or Stairway to Heaven.


That can happen without sheet music as well - it's all part of the unpredictability of a session (after all, it says "open session" - there's no controlling what people think "open" means and turn up to play their stuff). There will always be the odd outlandish song or tune now and then, but in my experience I have never seen a "takeover" - Irish music always prevailed in our sessions because it has an inherent attractive power, conveyed by good players, that never required an extra protection.
But then I am in the largest densely populated industrial area of Germany (and indeed of Europe), attracting enough genuine Irish people to staff the core of most sessions, together with many of the semi-pros of Germany's ITM scene. YMMV.

I am not using sheet music in a session either - that's just for my woodshedding phase 1 for every tune. But if a newbie turns up with enough courage to play but not that confident yet to play by ear, we make him welcome and hope that in time he will become proficient enough to spread his wings.

Oh - and there are rules, of course. They are not written down or enforced in verbal form - music protects itself musically. Like in the OP's video, suggesting a solo bodhran performance and "being the soul of the session". I guess it was meant to be sarcastic, but that's exactly what happens: the freak plays awkwardly alone, the others sitting it out and talking, going to the restrooms, going for a smoke, whatever - and it works; the freak may turn up a second time and maybe a third, but is never seen again after that. I have seen it so many times.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> One lady grabbed my 1930 Gibson uke and started bitching about my E string and tuner.  She was lucky it wasn't a session because I was quite sober; no pints consumed! So I kindly took my uke and left .... never to return.  Had it been a session, she might have been wearing a pint or two on her head.


 :Laughing:  I can picture that soooo clearly!

----------


## Gelsenbury

> What we've found is that some people who rely on the sheet music rely on its configurations and have even begun arguing with more advanced players that they're doing the tune wrong because the sheet music requires a dotted eighth or something or a specific ornament or a specific note and the more advance player isn't doing it exactly as written.


I'm sure that everyone who actually thinks about the nature of folk music will agree that sticking slavishly with the printed version is emphatically not the idea. But I don't accept that as an argument against sheet music per se. As someone else (I think it was Michael) has pointed out, printed folk came a long way after the aural tradition. But come it did, and there's a reason for that. It's a crutch, or perhaps a better metaphor: the supporting wheels on the bikes of beginners.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> It's a crutch, or perhaps a better metaphor: the supporting wheels on the bikes of beginners.


I was thinking the same, or maybe of this:



Anyway, if people try to hold sheet music up as proof that anybody is playing the tune "wrong", that's silly, of course. It might be patiently explained to them that this is like a repetition of Saxons conquering Celtic Britain with their written contracts and procedures (which were completely foreign to the 100% aural, illiterate Celtic culture) and thus founding a centuries-old hostility.
People should be allowed to use a crutch if they must, though, as long as they are not beating you with it...

----------


## foldedpath

> I'm sure that everyone who actually thinks about the nature of folk music will agree that sticking slavishly with the printed version is emphatically not the idea. But I don't accept that as an argument against sheet music per se. As someone else (I think it was Michael) has pointed out, printed folk came a long way after the aural tradition. But come it did, and there's a reason for that. It's a crutch, or perhaps a better metaphor: the supporting wheels on the bikes of beginners.


I like Bertram's description of the dots as "woodshedding phase 1." I'm not a good reader, but my fiddler S.O. can sight-read well enough to play a new tune cold; not up to session tempo, but fast enough to get a general feel for the thing. That's great for quickly trying out alternate settings of a tune, or wading through a tune book to see what's interesting. I which I could do that. I can read the rhythm notation, but I'm molasses-slow at puzzling out the dots. 

After that first phase though, we dig through our library of recordings or go online for YouTube versions from good trad players. The tunes we pick up together may start as sheet music, but actually getting the tunes in our heads is more learning by ear (and sometimes practicing with slowed-down recordings).

Another potential problem with sheet music is chord notation, for those who play backup instead of melody. Some tunes have fairly predictable chord progressions, but many others can be harmonized in different ways, or might require a more ambiguous approach with dropped thirds (so-called "modal" chords). A tune can take on a different flavor depending on whether the melody players are shifting between C#'s and C naturals in different phrases. A good backer has to respond to that in real time, and not by reading chords off a sheet. 

The cardinal rule for backers is "Do No Harm"... i.e., don't distract the melody players. Sheet music chords can be a problem in that respect. So, use it if you need a jump-start for figuring out what mode a tune is in, but abandon it as soon as you can, in favor or a more improvised approach. This is why many sessions don't like having more than one guitar player or other main chordal backer. Two players won't be improvising the backup the same way, so having just one backer avoids harmonic and rhythmic train wrecks that could distract the melody players.

----------


## Loretta Callahan

Ah, this is making sense to me.  There's a tradition to respect and keep.  Of course a tune transcribed by one person, in one era, is going to be different from the same tune written down by another ... at another time.  

There's a "transmission" involved if the tradition is to be maintained and respected.  The music isn't "dead".  It's alive and reflects both the tradition and the changes that affect its "language".  I may not be saying it very well, but the more I learn about this music, the more I want to listen to it ... and attempt to really "hear" it.  Maybe that's why I listened 15 years before I even considered playing along.  

It reminds me of the storytelling and oral history traditions that still exist among my indigenous friends.  Folks don't go around running off at the mouth telling stories ~ without permission, unless they like trouble. :Wink: 




> You cannot play most Irish TRAD tunes "note for note the way it was written" because originally, it was not written. TRAD music was customarily passed along aurally. You learned it by listening, then playing along, and finally, leading out. Each session tends to develop its own ways of playing the tunes because it's not a written tradition.

----------


## Nick Triesch

I'm sorry folks but when a group like the London Symphony Orchestra or any famous orchestra for that matter plays...it does not sound forced.  They are just really good at it.  Why would anyone want to play a celtic tune just about note for note how it was played for 300 years?  I have been to a session and it was just like that.  The folks would be really still and not do anything extra.  At all!  Really strange.  No fun.  No noodling.  Just note for note celtic tunes.  Don't you think it's fun to play a song like The "Ashgrove" and play around with it?  A session is like watching public television for 3 hours in a row!   At 3 AM!   Or going to a sports bar and not having chicken wings or beer.   Nick

----------


## Jill McAuley

> I'm sorry folks but when a group like the London Symphony Orchestra or any famous orchestra for that matter plays...it does not sound forced.  They are just really good at it.  Why would anyone want to play a celtic tune just about note for note how it was played for 300 years?  I have been to a session and it was just like that.  The folks would be really still and not do anything extra.  At all!  Really strange.  No fun.  No noodling.  Just note for note celtic tunes.  Don't you think it's fun to play a song like The "Ashgrove" and play around with it?  A session is like watching public television for 3 hours in a row!   At 3 AM!   Or going to a sports bar and not having chicken wings or beer.   Nick


Ok Nick, you don't like Irish traditional music, we get it - I'm a bit puzzled however, about why you feel the need to try to get other folks to chime in and agree with you that irish music is "boring, dumb etc etc...."  It's obviously not your cup of tea, and that's *fine*, but you are posting in the "Celtic, UK etc etc" section, meaning I'd reckon a fair amount of us who browse here *enjoy* irish/celtic music, so you'll possibly not get much mileage dissing irish/celtic music in this particular part of the forum.

Cheers,
Jill, just another boring irish trad player (yawn....)

----------


## foldedpath

> Why would anyone want to play a celtic tune just about note for note how it was played for 300 years?


Well, let's see.. maybe because after 300 years with literally thousands of fiddle/flute/pipe tunes in the repertoire, the really GOOD tunes are the ones that rise to the top like cream, and get handed off from one generation of players to the next? 

Think about that process of selection over the years. The same thing has been happening in Americana fiddle tune repertoire, it just hasn't had as long a timescale to separate the wheat from the chaff. 




> I have been to a session and it was just like that.  The folks would be really still and not do anything extra.  At all!  Really strange.  No fun.  No noodling.  Just note for note celtic tunes.  Don't you think it's fun to play a song like The "Ashgrove" and play around with it?


I was lead guitar player in a Chicago-style blues band for six years. I know how to improvise. This is just different music, from a different part of the world and a different musical tradition than people like me (and I'm guessing, you) were raised in. It takes some effort -- and lots of careful listening -- to understand what it's all about. If you're not willing to make that effort, then please, don't criticize what you don't understand.

P.S. if you don't like Irish trad, you're _really_ not gonna like an OldTime jam.  :Grin:

----------


## Loretta Callahan

> Oh - and there are rules, of course. They are not written down or enforced in verbal form - music protects itself musically.


Exactly :Smile:

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I'm sorry folks but when a group like the London Symphony Orchestra or any famous orchestra for that matter plays...it does not sound forced.  They are just really good at it.  Why would anyone want to play a celtic tune just about note for note how it was played for 300 years?


Surprisingly, famous orchestras do have things in common with a session. Especially since orchestras often play centuries-old pieces, note for note.  :Wink:  

The difference is that orchestras rehearse and sessions don't. Therefore a session requires more careful awareness - you just can't rely on everybody else doing his job like in an orchestra. But if the session regulars have played together often and know what to expect, near-to-orchestra quality, ease and fun actually can happen.

If you've been to one session, you've been to none. Sessions are very different, even in the same venue. And ordering chicken wings and beer is perfectly acceptable session behavior  :Grin: 

I am adding my standard example here - and if you think they're not having fun, come out and say that...

----------


## SincereCorgi

> Mandolin is an excellent instrument to learn tunes on at a seisun, because it can switch from melody to rhythm in a way that a fiddle, flute, or guitar can't do as well.  You can play melody on the tunes whose melodies you know; you can play rhythm behind the tunes whose melodies you don't know, if you can figure out the chords "on the fly."  As you hear the tunes more times, you find yourself picking up the melody.


Uh oh, Alan... apparently nobody told you that you're not allowed to play rhythm mandolin unless you've demonstrated proficiency in the melody before a jury of at least three (3) plump men in cable-knit sweaters or folk festival sweatshirts.

The sheet music hangup is mystifying for me. There's this violin guy at the session I've been going to who, well, not to be nasty, but he plays terribly and doesn't know any of the most common tunes. This situation never seems to change. The leader offered to loan him one of the tune 'bibles' of the common local arrangements and the guy responded with this more-Irish-than-thou sneer and the unforgettable comment: "Oh, thanks, no, I don't really need to go off 'the dots' anymore."

----------


## Bertram Henze

> ...a jury of at least three (3) plump men in cable-knit sweaters or folk festival sweatshirts.


 :Laughing:  :Laughing:  for situations like that, just follow this guy's example.




> There's this violin guy at the session I've been going to who, well, not to be nasty, but he plays terribly and doesn't know any of the most common tunes. This situation never seems to change. The leader offered to loan him one of the tune 'bibles' of the common local arrangements and the guy responded with this more-Irish-than-thou sneer and the unforgettable comment: "Oh, thanks, no, I don't really need to go off 'the dots' anymore."


This is more serious, not just because someone apparently lives in his own isolated perception of his own playing but because this could happen to all of us and we'd never know until we open up to other folks' criticism or - most cruel of all tortures - make a recording of ourselves and listen to it two days later  :Crying:

----------


## Dagger Gordon

It's OK to use sheet music if you want, but you are going to run into practical difficulties.

Often people don't really know what tunes are going to come next, and if someone launches into a tune which you do have the music for somewhere, I'm afraid it might be over and they are into another one before you have your music in place.

Sessions where the players play pre-arranged sets of tunes would be fair enough, I suppose, but most of the ones I would go to simply don't work that way and to be honest, people might get a bit bored having to wait for you to find your music every time.  

No way round it.  You need to be able to play a lot of tunes without relying on sheet music.  Learning from music at home is another matter.  But you should still try to develop your ear and try to learn some tunes that way if you can.

----------


## Nick Triesch

Jill!  I really like Irish traditional music!   I play lots of it.  But when I play it,  I change it up a bit for fun.  Just like on any song I play.  In fact,  my favorite way of playing is just adding small bits to recorded music or in a jam setting.  The less is more thing.  I love celtic music.  I guess just the pub kind.  Also,  the reason I posted here is because it was on the front of the cafe looking at me one day last week.  I did not seek it out.  The folks at the session were just really rude with a ton of rules and it was just not cool to me.  I have been playing for 30 years!  And to have a leader tell me that I can't add notes or read tab?  When we got to the session for the first visit,  there was this nice lady who just started to set up with a music stand and the leader quickly told her in front of everyone that it was not allowed so she must put it away.   That is really not playing for fun. I'll just keep playing fun celtic songs  in the mountain with my friends.  Nick

----------


## zoukboy

> Why would anyone want to play a celtic tune just about note for note how it was played for 300 years?


Because the part you are hearing, the notes, is not the most important component of that music.  Obviously you are not hearing what *is* important.  Nothing wrong with that, but trumpeting your own ignorance on this public forum might be something you'd want to think twice about.

----------


## michaelpthompson

> I really like Irish traditional music!   I play lots of it.  But when I play it,  I change it up a bit for fun.  Just like on any song I play.


You just really don't get it Nick. You may have played something for thirty years, but it's not Irish Traditional Music. It's called that because we respect the tradition. It's not set in stone, but we play it the traditional way. We don't make it up as we go along. For instance, in this tradition, we play a tune, we sing a song. You don't even know the vocabulary, much less the issues. 




> I'm sorry folks but when a group like the London Symphony Orchestra or any famous orchestra for that matter plays...it does not sound forced. They are just really good at it. Why would anyone want to play a Celtic tune just about note for note how it was played for 300 years?


You're contradicting yourself again here, and still not understanding what's going on. The LSO plays from sheet music that was written down 300 years ago, and they play it just like it was written. They don't noodle, they don't get "creative" they play what was written, in accordance with the directions of their conductor.

It ITM, we don't have that kind of tradition. We have a living, breathing tradition that's passed down from one player to another. It was created long before it was written down. Sheet music is an artificial innovation imposed on it, not the way it was created like symphony music. We don't play it note for note the way it was "written" because we don't rely on sheet music. It's a good help for getting started or learning tunes, but it can get in the way of playing at a session. Some sessions are ok with that, many are not. Just because you can't understand their reasons doesn't make them wrong.

I love to play and sing "pub" music as well. I've changed the songs even as I was singing them. I don't confuse that with session music the way you do. But even that tradition has its rules and its purists. For instance, whenever we're playing and singing in a pub, somebody requests Danny Boy. Danny Boy is not an Irish song. Some purists in the "pub" category will look down their noses at the ignorance that requests something like that. Others will sing it anyway. I get along with both because I don't judge them. I get along in sessions where they don't use sheet music, and where they do. Same reason.

----------


## allenhopkins

> ...Danny Boy is not an Irish song...


Apparently an Irish _tune,_ though, found in tune collections from 1796 and 1855.  Lyrics by English songwriter Frederick Weatherly (1910).

As for SincereCorgi's idea of a mandolin "jury," I might be a tad improvisational for the strictest of Irish seisuns, for sure, since I do like to throw in harmonies now and again, but I definitely respect the idea of playing ITM relatively "straight," not trying to "riff over the changes" with improvised melodies.  It's hard to legislate taste and talent, and seisuns that adopt a really strict code of rules in an attempt to avoid any unwanted variations, are definitely going to appear a bit unfriendly to newcomers who don't have as much of a background in the genre.  Undoubtedly I've committed my share of _faux pas_ in my time.  Luckily, most of the local musicians are glad to have people come in and join them, and tolerant of newbie idiosyncrasies.  I've never been to a real local seisun, as opposed to one designated as "learners," where musicians were using sheet music, but I doubt anyone would be thrown out if he/she had a "cheat sheet" for a new or unfamiliar tune.

----------


## Bren

I must say, I've been to sessions from Kirkwall to Kalamunda, Melbourne to Moscow, New York to ... somewhere starting with N - and I can't recall seeing anyone with music stands. I don't think anyone would object in Aberdeen, you'd just have trouble keeping up (and finding space). I have seen people taking sneaky looks at the dots in their fiddle case or whatever, to remind themselves of a tune.

If I walked into a pub and saw a load of people playing from music stands, I'd probably walk out again.
Not really, I'd go to the bar.

----------


## Gelsenbury

Can improvisation work in a session at all? With so many players at the same time, I imagine that an attempt at improvising would fall into the category "worse than useless". There are solo players like Robin Bullock or Simon Mayor who work something quite beautiful around traditional tunes, but none of it would be appropriate for a session. Playing in a small group, perhaps the odd flourish would work - but again, this is in a *small* group. 

And then you get the sort of "improvisation" that I did at session: trying desperately to find the tune and being quite glad that no-one could actually hear me! :D

So, essentially, I have nothing against clever arrangements or improvisation based on traditional material. But within a session, how can anything work unless everyone plays the tune as agreed?

----------


## Bertram Henze

There is improvisation and improvisation. Both lead away from the strict path of the notes, but...

Type 1 is a slight variation of the melody, made to accommodate instrument-specific necessities or to put more emphasis on some clever ornamentation. It still sounds Irish, the tune is still recognizable. It supports the tune to make it more interesting to audience and other players.

Type 2 takes the tune into another genre (blues, punk, you name it) and makes other players stop in puzzlement. It is no more Irish and not recognizable without verbal announcement. It supports the ego of the improvising player.

Do I have to say explicitly which one is acceptable and which is not? In our session we have one blonde but resolute lady (she plays fiddle and looks exactly like Meg Ryan); in her real life she is a deputy headmaster of an elementary school. Whenever someone turns up and tries type 2 improvisation she'll make him feel like a kid again  :Wink: 
No written rules required. Everybody plainly feels if it's wrong, wrong things get excreted from the session by soft but irresistible means..

Joining a session is a bit like visiting a National Park - you're welcome to walk, look and maybe camp, but don't try to build a golf course and a shopping mall.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> If I walked into a pub and saw a load of people playing from music stands, I'd probably walk out again.
> Not really, I'd go to the bar.


Happened to me once. A bar in Kirkwall had announced a session - when I went there, there were chairs and music stands in rows for approx. 20 people. Turned out to be a rehearsal of the local S&RS. I stayed anyway, given that nothing else happened music-wise on the island (it was in October). Tried to accompany on my OM, they were very friendly, placed sheet music in front of me and asked what my instrument was called.

----------


## foldedpath

Improvisation at the macro level (i.e. anything more than subtle variation) just doesn't work in a session. One obvious reason is that nobody else is going to sit out, or play quietly, to allow space for an improv solo to be heard. So why bother? The music just isn't structured for it, in the way that Blues, Bluegrass or Jazz are. If someone enjoys improvising, these other genres are better suited for it. 

The other reason to avoid improvisation is because it can distract the other melody players. Each session is usually a mix of stronger and weaker players. Anyone who isn't completely familiar with a tune will be listening closely to the stronger players, to pick up the notes and stay on track. Imagine trying to do that, with the person next to you "improvising" around the melody line. 

Finally, there is that fine line between "hey, I'm improvising!" and just noodling around the melody because someone hasn't bothered to learn the tunes being played. I've experienced that a few times at sessions, where people want to join on a social level, but aren't really interested enough in the music to take it seriously and learn the tunes.

----------


## michaelpthompson

> I might be a tad improvisational for the strictest of Irish seisuns, for sure, since I do like to throw in harmonies now and again, but I definitely respect the idea of playing ITM relatively "straight," not trying to "riff over the changes" with improvised melodies.  It's hard to legislate taste and talent, and seisuns that adopt a really strict code of rules in an attempt to avoid any unwanted variations, are definitely going to appear a bit unfriendly to newcomers who don't have as much of a background in the genre.


There's a balance, and each session finds it in a different place. I've complained before about the "TRAD Police" who ruin a session with rigid rules and enforcing their own ideas of what's appropriate as if they were the law. But I've also played in sessions where the tradition was drowned out by ignorant newbies who think it's a jam. We should all be so fortunate as to find (and keep) a session where the balance meets our own preferences.

----------


## Nick Triesch

Wow Zoukboy,  the rude thing keeps on going!  I'll just stay away from you folks and keep having fun.   Nick

----------


## Bertram Henze

Late, but at last, it all comes into perspective for me:




> I've also played in sessions where the tradition was drowned out by ignorant newbies who think it's a jam.


OK, now that's a scenario I was lucky to avoid so far. Newbies forming a *majority* and hijacking the session  :Disbelief:  - that would make me turn and run. I was not born to be kindergarden cop; would do no good, neither to the newbies nor to me - in the end I'd be a pharisee and never notice. ITM depends on a critical quorum of peers.
Maybe we ITM musicians should place a warning on our YouTube videos: "Don't try this at home".  :Cool: 




> Wow Zoukboy,  the rude thing keeps on going!  I'll just stay away from you folks and keep having fun.   Nick


Rudeness is a matter of perception mismatch between two persons, but so is fun. Fun in an Irish session is defined as "everybody having fun", not as "one single person having fun".

----------


## Bren

Everyone's improvising to some degree in a pub session, and if they aren't having fun,there's not much point to it.

But if you don't know the tune and insist on jamming over it regardless, it'd be like going into a Bb jazz jam on Night in Tunisia and playing loud 3chord Gmaj bluegrass. 
Can't see how that's much fun for anyone. Funny, yes :-), for a short while

----------


## Jill McAuley

Another thing the "jam" minded folks need to bear in mind is that irish trad music is a *dance* music - a jig is a dance, a reel is a dance, a hornpipe is a dance etc etc etc. One of the reasons the tradition calls for pretty much sticking to the tune is so that the dancers wouldn't be thrown off by someone deciding to get all "creative" to the detriment of the collective players and dancers also involved - sure there'd be anarchy on the dance floor if that was the case! While there may not be dancers at your average pub session, that doesn't change the fact that we're still playing *dance* tunes. 

As Roger pointed out, it's not just a collection of notes - if you treat it as such, and start getting all wacky with things because that's what YOU enjoy, then what you're playing will most likely no longer resemble a jig, or a reel or what have you, it'll just be a collection of notes.... 

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## JonZ

Jam sessions are as varied as the people who play in them. As with individuals, you can accept them as they are, try to influence them, try to change them to the point where you become annoying, or break off contact. Some groups are dysfunctional, and sometimes you are the one who is dysfunctional.

----------


## allenhopkins

Good points, Jon, and one should also remember that when one enters an established musical event -- whether it's Irish traditional, bluegrass, jazz, blues, whatever -- *as a newcomer,* one would do well to start with a lot of listening, testing the waters, picking up cues, etc.

Nick does have a point about how people respond to a new, somewhat nonconformist musician; one can be gently guiding, giving friendly advice, or really rude and dismissive.  And I do agree that saying he's "trumpeting his ignorance," as Zoukboy did, is ruder than we need to be.  Probably just a bad fit for a more "trad" Irish traditional seisun, and happier at a looser jam which has some Celtic mixed in...?

----------


## Jim Nollman

> Why would anyone want to play a celtic tune just about note for note how it was played for 300 years?


 I learn tunes by ear. My technique for learning a new tune, is to visit the itunes store, search for a recorded version of the new song. I find a version that appeals to me, download it, then stick an earbud in one ear and play the tune over and over and over until I get it just like the recording.

My fiddle player does it differently. She has been playing these tunes since childhood. She is a sight reader, so she brings out a pile of fiddle tune books, finds the tune, plays it perfectly the first time, and keeps the book around, until she affixes the tune to memory. 

Here's the thing. The tune she's learned from the book  is always slightly different from what i just learned off one recording. Both versions are recognizable to both of us, but there's some phrase, some turnaround, some syncopation  something  that's different. Sometimes she'll tweak her version to accommodate my version. Sometimes, vice versa. Sometimes one of us has to transpose, because our versions are in different keys. Sometimes we retain the slight differences, because they create a pleasing harmony.  

We have followed this same procedure to affix 60 or 80 tunes to finger memory. I conclude that there is no right version. Take any song you like. Go to the itunes store, and you may find 20 versions, including from Irish groups. I guarantee that every version you download has something unique from every other version.

I do acknowledge that if I was not playing in my own band, but in an Irish pub, I would be expected to learn the version being played at that moment. But reading this thread confuses me. I'm wondering if i would be rejected at a pub, if i was asked to start a tune, and played some "alternate" version I learned off an Irish recording. Or another alternate version i learned off another Irish recording. 

So what is "authentic "? Is it anything else besides how the local guys at the pub  learned it? Some here would enter that local session and stay, hoping to get swept up,  learning it the way that pub plays it. When in Rome.Other players here, would leave it alone, and instead go find players who also acknowledge the moving target that is these tunes, and get swept up finding different versions every time they play it.

----------


## foldedpath

> I do acknowledge that if I was not playing in my own band, but in an Irish pub, I would be expected to learn the version being played at that moment. But reading this thread confuses me. I'm wondering if i would be rejected at a pub, if i was asked to start a tune, and played some "alternate" version I learned off an Irish recording. Or another alternate version i learned off another Irish recording.


It just depends on how far off your version is, from what the session is used to playing. Small variations don't matter; nobody cares. Everyone learns from different sources, and a few note differences here and there don't matter, as long as the notes harmonize and you're not actually in a different mode or a different rhythm pattern.

If you've learned it in a different home key than the session usually plays it in, they might or might not want to shift gears, especially with diatonic instruments that don't do that easily, like keyless flutes, whistles, pipes, and diatonic accordions. We fretted instrument players (like fiddlers) get spoiled about easy key/mode changes.

In my experience (and just talking about the local sessions around here), the only thing that really throws people is if you've learned a _completely_ different setting of a tune from the one played at the session. I mean, something so different that a bystander would definitely think it was a different tune altogether. That doesn't happen very often, but it can happen since so many tunes have different names, and are passed down through different traditions and regional styles. A modern type of confusion happens with recorded versions, where sometimes a tune is mis-labeled on the CD jacket or MP3 metadata, which can lead to some hilarity at sessions. People will know the tunes, but argue about the names attached. 

But that sort of thing is rare, in my experience. People play together in sessions using slightly different settings all the time. As long as there isn't a serious harmonic clash, like one person is playing it as Dorian and the other as Mixolydian, it's not a problem. And even those differences get ironed out amiably -- "Hey, we do this in a minor mode!" "Oh, okay, no problem." 




> So what is "authentic "? Is it anything else besides how the local guys at the pub  learned it?


"Authentic" is a slippery term. It can be applied to many things, and some of them are very contentious, like authenticity of sessions in the Irish diaspora and other parts of the world, vs. the home country and native players. I try to avoid that term as much as possible. For one thing, I'm sure my playing can't be described that way.
 :Wink: 

But as far as it goes, yeah... the "authentic session tunes" in any given area, are the ones being played most often at the local sessions. I'm still not crazy about that term, though.




> Some here would enter that local session and stay, hoping to get swept up,  learning it the way that pub plays it. When in Rome.Other players here, would leave it alone, and instead go find players who also acknowledge the moving target that is these tunes, and get swept up finding different versions every time they play it.


Well, the thing is.... if you use the second approach, you'll be in a group that's constantly scratching their collective heads and trying to find tunes in common. The reason a session gels around a series of common settings for their tunes, is so people can sit down, drink a beer, and have fun playing music together without thinking too hard about clashing versions. It's like the Borg Collective... you will be assimilated. 
 :Smile:

----------


## Rob Gerety

The thing about sessions, which I enjoy as a listener on occasion, is that everyone plays the melody all at the same time full steam ahead beginning to end.   I have not been able to warm up to that approach to the music. I love the tunes though.

----------


## michaelpthompson

> "Authentic" is a slippery term. It can be applied to many things, and some of them are very contentious, like authenticity of sessions in the Irish diaspora and other parts of the world, vs. the home country and native players. I try to avoid that term as much as possible. For one thing, I'm sure my playing can't be described that way.


Marvelously well said as always foldedpath. I especially agree with the idea of avoiding the term "authentic." I've heard people from Ireland who don't believe anyone not born on the Island could possibly play the music in an authentic manner. Others hold their version as authentic and reject all others.

There is certainly a broad arena outside of which the music is no longer played in the traditional manner. But it's a sliding scale that should be understood before judgment is made. For instance, I've heard Celtic rock bands play traditional tunes on electric guitars and amplified bagpipes. Certainly traditional in origin, but non-traditional in execution. Is this "authentic"? Maybe that's just the wrong question.

----------


## Rob Gerety

And there is modern contra dance music.  For some reason I enjoy the whole traditional music experience (including ITM) more, as a player, a dancer and a listener, when there are arrangements and when creative back up is involved.  This is why I have never joined in the local sessions as a player. Well one reason anyway - the other being that it would involve major commitment to get up to speed.

----------


## chriss

As I'm reading this I'm feeling increasingly grateful for several sessions in central OH, which afford a good deal more flexibility in HOW you learn this music, than some others described here.  I've been at it (sessions) for about a yr+half and have memorized maybe 10-15 songs completely.  I always bring a computer with ABCExplorer open to a file with ~600 tunes in it.  I can play maybe ~150 of those mas-o-menos as session speed with the group.  I try to learn 1-2 each week, first to the point of being able to play it at speed from the music, and then work towards really memorizing.  Some sessions just start the songs, I try to guess the tune name or somebody tells me, I find it, and maybe join in part way thru.  Other sessions will agree on the set before starting, and sometimes will pause while I tee them up before they start.

I'd love to completely memorize more, sooner.  Even the ones I've supposedly memorized, I need to see the music to remember, often enuf.  Work, kids, etc leaves X amount of time, and that's apparently not enuf for how my memorization works.  Recently some friends have picked it up too and we'll sit around the kitchen table working on tunes from the ABC so we can "climb on the back of the train" at the session.  Altho I understand/appreciate the rationale behind the ideal of "learn it by ear," my ear and my memorization being what they are, the strict enforcement of that would just cut me out of the session, which would be a real loss for me.  Give me another 5-10 years, maybe I get there.  ?  Maybe.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I'd love to completely memorize more, sooner.  Even the ones I've supposedly memorized, I need to see the music to remember, often enuf.  Work, kids, etc leaves X amount of time, and that's apparently not enuf for how my memorization works.  Recently some friends have picked it up too and we'll sit around the kitchen table working on tunes from the ABC so we can "climb on the back of the train" at the session.  Altho I understand/appreciate the rationale behind the ideal of "learn it by ear," my ear and my memorization being what they are, the strict enforcement of that would just cut me out of the session, which would be a real loss for me.  Give me another 5-10 years, maybe I get there.  ?  Maybe.


Those 5 - 10 years are a realistic guess, even if it was tongue-in-cheek. In trying to handle a multitude of tunes, we should not forget what historic lifestyle we are competing with here:

- a daily routine of working with your hands, nothing going on in your head,
- total absence of media distraction,
- the music you played the only entertainment

Juggling 100+ tunes in the air has not been much of a problem under such circumstances, I guess.
Today, in the age of breaking news, ringing phones and fast forgetting, it is a different challenge. To save these tunes from getting shredded in the daily turmoil inside our heads, we must stow them away in longterm memory, and that takes a while. But it can be learned - when I started playing tunes, it took me a month to get it session-worthy; now it's 2 or three days. The problem is that learning one tune can overwrite memory of another, older one. Thus, after the new tune runs smoothly, I'll have to check on the damage done to the rest of my collection.

I think it is this longterm thing that frightens many ITM newbies - there's no quick success, instead years of commitment. A relationship to ITM cannot be done as a one-night stand, it has to be a marriage. It is one application of that Irish saying: _To know beauty you must live with it._

----------


## chriss

> Those 5 - 10 years are a realistic guess, even if it was tongue-in-cheek. In trying to handle a multitude of tunes, we should not forget what historic lifestyle we are competing with here:
> 
> - a daily routine of working with your hands, nothing going on in your head,
> - total absence of media distraction,
> - the music you played the only entertainment
> 
> Juggling 100+ tunes in the air has not been much of a problem under such circumstances, I guess.
> Today, in the age of breaking news, ringing phones and fast forgetting, it is a different challenge. To save these tunes from getting shredded in the daily turmoil inside our heads, we must stow them away in longterm memory, and that takes a while.[/I]


Yup you pretty much said it, and I wasn't kidding about 5-10 yrs.  Age doesn't help either.  I've never been good at instant recall of people's names, actors, sports players etc and I think there's a parallel weakness with tunes.  I'll recognize a tune real fast as one I've worked on, or even one that I was able to play comfortably from memory at one point in the past (recent or distant).  But recalling the next phrase of the tune ahead of hearing it, recalling/playing the B section, etc etc etc just don't work so good.  And that's where I'll turn to the ABC file to make sure I've got it straight in my head before or as the tune gets to that next part.




> The problem is that learning one tune can overwrite memory of another, older one. Thus, after the new tune runs smoothly, I'll have to check on the damage done to the rest of my collection. [/I]


 :Laughing:  haha +1 on that.




> A relationship to ITM cannot be done as a one-night stand, it has to be a marriage. It is one application of that Irish saying: _To know beauty you must live with it._


... ah well put.  That- living with beauty- in a nutshell is the core reason to me for doing it.  The longterm investment + build, being able to recall this more-or-less endless collection or stream of sweet tunes, having them (...eventually...) rattling around in my head as I go about working for a living etc ... this to me is why I look forward to each little slice of time I invest in it.  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## bobby bill

> Because the part you are hearing, the notes, is not the most important component of that music.


If you remove the notes, you get silence.  Silence is the most important part of the music?  Way too Zen for me.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Age doesn't help either.


Yeah. in fact, I understand it should be the other way round: music is supposed to keep you young. So maybe age is helped.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> If you remove the notes, you get silence.


The notes are what a midi player needs to do pitch and timing. However, a midi player's output will hardly make you want to dance. If you remove the notes, there is at least the stomping of feet and cries of joy, plus some doublestops, hammer-on/pulloffs, slides, ....

----------


## bobby bill

> For instance, in this tradition, we play a tune, we sing a song. You don't even know the vocabulary, much less the issues.


Sounds like someone is being judged for not knowing the secret handshake.  You are certainly entitled to the judgment, however, stating, "I don't judge them," (in a slightly different context) at the end of the post, seems a little off to me.

Personally, I never sing (your welcome), but I play songs all the time.

----------


## bobby bill

> The notes are what a midi player needs to do pitch and timing.


The poster was talking about "the part you are hearing."  I don't think we are hearing a midi player at a session.  And if the "part you are hearing" is eliminated, why would anyone be dancing or stomping their feet?

I understand that there are a lot of intangibles that go with the music.  And I absolutely love the clip of the session, above, with about sixty people playing at once, and the nonplayers bobbing around and otherwise grooving.  I just don't understand the pretension.

----------


## Jim Nollman

so...session playing is not actually about anything called tune authenticity. Rather it's  a musical expression of community. Everyone doing it — inevitably representing many skill levels — agrees to this  system of unison playing. That also suggests, I suppose,  that is has very little to do with everyone agreeing that some particular version is correct. But once they  start a particular version, it properly gets played in unison, although with small eccentricities accepted. That makes sense to me. 

As far as the limits of memory in learning tunes, I need to play them over and over and over in my living room. I even have an old short-neck  Kay mandolin i use exclusively for that purpose. Then, when we meet as a band, we start the tune slow, which is about the speed I use in my living room, and slowly accelerate to dance speed. By playing it faster, i often find myself altering or skipping a few notes to keep it clean at speed. I don't learn song lyrics anywhere near as easily. However, I think i could, if i cared as much about song lyrics as i do about getting that latest song down properly. 

Knocking MIDI is like knocking a hammer for not being a saw. Think of it as  one more tool in the musical toolbox, used especially for recording, and film composing. I've never seen it used onstage for anything like what we're talking about here. If a contra dance was played by a good MIDI keyboard player, I don't see why the dancers would even notice.

----------


## Mike Snyder

This thread has made me ever more grateful to the session crowd in Wichita, Kansas. Most of them carry Portland I and II, along with Carpilation and (more and more lately) an Old-Timey book or two. Use tab? No prob! Play the nose flute? Welcome! I learn by ear. In a year and a half I've learned 30 tunes or so. I rarely get to play with them, too long a drive for weekly/biweekly pub/coffehouse sessions. I've fumbled and stumbled, hit clams, been playing the wrong song, played too loud, even been tipsy once or twice. I've got the "stink eye" occasionally, briefly, but I've NEVER been treated with the EXTREME rudeness you guys are describing. Seems like a good way to insure that your "oh so exclusive" genre of music will die a lonely geriatric death. So, God bless Crystal, Mike, Mick, Nancy, Carroll Gunter, Jay, Jo and Minnie and all the rest. Remember, just because you have one, doesn't mean you have to BE one.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> The poster was talking about "the part you are hearing."  I don't think we are hearing a midi player at a session.  And if the "part you are hearing" is eliminated, why would anyone be dancing or stomping their feet?


I understood this to be meant as "what you are hearing" as opposed to "what I am hearing", not in the sense of "what everybody is hearing". I may be wrong, but it would make the whole context make sense.
Different people hear different things out of the same piece of music. To some, all tunes sound alike despite the fact that the notes look totally different.

This is the gap that separates the disputant parties in this thread - they hear differently. They have different musical experiences. The gap cannot be closed by force - but we can build frail bridges.

----------


## bobby bill

> The gap cannot be closed by force - but we can build frail bridges.


I'm all for bridges.

----------


## Jill McAuley

Ok, so what have we learned so far: some sessions frown on sheet music and some embrace it with open arms, some sessions like to stay within the parameters of the tradition and some are really more like "celtic" flavoured jams, welcoming unusual instruments, tunes outside the tradition etc. Generally in life we gravitate towards folk we share common ground with - so how difficult is it for folk who like the "tradition" in traditional music to gravitate towards each other, and those who like a more loose fitting definition to gravitate towards each other, rather than instead just taking every opportunity to whinge about each other? If you don't like your local session then go start your own one.

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## Jill McAuley

> If you remove the notes, you get silence.  Silence is the most important part of the music?  Way too Zen for me.


Nothing zen about it (and Roger didn't say anything about "removing the notes" either)- I've heard folks play an irish tune and make it sound old timey, or bluegrassy or even classical in feeling because of the emphasis and feel they choose to apply to it, sometimes consciously and sometimes unconsciously. The notes are the same, but it sounds different. That's why the notes aren't the most important component of the music, it's what you do with them that counts. 

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## Jim Nollman

This discussion about the silence between notes is practical stuff, not mystical. 

Paying attention to the silences between notes is a very good way to learn syncopation. The "push" we players apply to contra dance tunes, is probably more a function of feeling the space around the notes, rather than of the notes themselves. 

It reminds me of a documentary film I just saw on the typeface Helvetica. Several font designers are seen commenting that this typeface is used so often because it makes the best use of the white spaces around and between the letters.

----------


## Paul Kotapish

Successfully making music with a group of folks--casually or seriously--often hinges more on compatibility of expectations and goals than it does on the other details. 

Most of the unhappy Irish-seisún scenarios relayed above are the result of a collision of expectations, a lack of mutual goals, and perhaps a lack of understanding about the history of the music and the accepted norms of the tradition.

A few observations:

An Irish seisún isn't necessarily a "session" in the sense that most American musicians would understand it, and it certainly isn't a jam session. 

An informal, public setting does not necessarily suggest that the music or musicians are informal or that participation is entirely open to the general public.

In most of the world, music of all sorts--serious and silly--is played in informal public places. Private homes are generally too small or modest and more formal venues are unavailable, so musicians gather at common venues--pubs, squares, church basements, tekes, and street corners. The informal setting or the adjacent consumption of drink or food or smoke doesn't mean that the musicians don't mean business.

In most of the world, music is passed on by the oral--or aural--tradition, and the fact that it hasn't been committed to dots and dashes doesn't mean that it is all formless and endlessly mutable. For the most serious practicioners, learning precise and historic versions is a highly valued and carefully cultivated art. 

The ability to master and recall hundreds—even thousands—of melodies, themes and variations, and obscure modes is revered in much the same way that the great bards were honored for their ability to master and recall epic poetry.

The ability to learn quickly and accurately by ear is an admired aspect of musical accomplishment in many traditions, and at the highest levels, virtuosos within an idiom might only play through a treasured tune a couple of times so that only the most adept would have the ghost of a chance of learning it. 

Playing in unison is not boring to those who love the sound, and to do so really well requires skill and practice. 

The art of variation and ornamentation within a strict tradition requires a high level of competence, and in the Irish tradition, the subtle variation is typically more highly regarded than the dramatic departure from form.

In many traditional cultures, mastery of one's instrument and a basic knowledge of the core repertoire is a prerequisite for playing out in public. Younger players or outsiders may be encouraged to play on occasion, but there would be no expectation on either side that a simple desire to join in would be sufficient grounds to participate. 

All of these aspects of the seisún can be interpreted—or misconstrued—as rules for an uptight music party, or they can be understood in the context of a vernerable tradition that challenges its practitioners to develop skills and arts that are rare indeed in today’s fully wired culture.

So . . . 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using sheet music or songbooks or teleprompters or anything that fosters congenial music making or with encouraging improvisation or free-form experimentation, too. 

But those things don’t have much to do with a traditional seisún, and there’s nothing wrong with trying to keep a few corners of the world where the traditions still live.

----------


## John McGann

Very well put, Paul!

----------


## dave

It's not about "players" it's not a "cutting" session, it's dance tunes that have been played for a lot of years and handed down. Years after "we" are gone, a kid will be playing these tunes the same way that we learned them. (I hope)

----------


## chriss

> Because the part you are hearing, the notes, is not the most important component of that music.


FWIW - when I read that, my first thought was, "well it's the rhythm, that's often the most important part."  But it's also how the "line" creates the harmonic "shape," so often modal harmonics -- that's an important part to my hearing as well.  And that harmonic "shape" can be so well crafted with the subtleties of delivery- emphasis, timing, ornamentation, etc.

But that said as 1 guy's sense -- I'll bet there's a million different views on what's important to ITM.  and hoping that offering this view doesn't stimulate a "food fight" about whether this view or somebody else's is more correct or more authentic.

Jus saying.

----------


## Galimando

> those things don't have much to do with a traditional seisún, and there's nothing wrong with trying to keep a few corners of the world where the traditions still live.


Hear hear!

----------


## bobby bill

> Nothing zen about it (and Roger didn't say anything about "removing the notes" either)- I've heard folks play an irish tune and make it sound old timey, or bluegrassy or even classical in feeling because of the emphasis and feel they choose to apply to it, sometimes consciously and sometimes unconsciously. The notes are the same, but it sounds different. That's why the notes aren't the most important component of the music, it's what you do with them that counts.


Well, I think there is a good chance that I didn't understand what he was saying.  And I didn't claim that Roger said anything about removing the notes.  But he did say that "the part you are hearing . . . is not the most important component of the music."  To me, then, if you take away the unimportant component (the part you are hearing) it should be easier to examine the most important components remaining.  But when you remove the part you are hearing in order to examine the most important components, you are examining silence (the part you are not hearing).

Now when you talk about making an Irish tune sound "old timey, or bluegrassy or even classical," you are talking about the part you are hearing.

In retrospect, I'm thinking that when Zoukboy referred to "notes" he was referring to dots on a page.  But since he said it in the context of "what you are hearing" I thought he was referring to actual notes (sound) rather than their representation on a page.

Jill, I think you stated Zoukboy's idea more clearly ("the [written] notes aren't the most important component of the music, it's what you do with them that counts") and with this understanding, I don't really have a disagreement or even Zen-like befuddlement.

----------


## Bren

Online discussions about pub sessions do tend to project a somewhat defensive attitude to newcomers or outsiders though. 

In the case of North America (and elsewhere) I guess it would largely be due to fear of being overwhelmed by a sort of bluegrass/bluesjam drumming circle sameyness, so there is a sense of "preserving their corner" where they can play tunes from ITM.

(I prefer to think of NAFT {North Atlantic Fiddle Traditions} rather than "ITM" . There are so many Canadian, Shetland, Scottish, New England and even at times Scandi, Appalachian and Western Swing tunes etc that get played in so-called "Irish" or "Celtic" sessions).

There is also the issue of volume, not always apparent to people who're thinking of harmony and rhythm ahead of melody.
One guitar or drum can be enough to drown out a melody instrument, and most sessions are afflic... I mean blessed, with several each of these. So an uplifting surge of driving tunes can descend into a morass of muffled thumpystrum. I don't blame people for being wary of newcomers who could drag things that way.

However, in real life, I've found most sessions very welcoming to strangers, once you show you can play a few tunes.

A mandolin is not the ideal session instrument, usually being too quiet, but it is the ideal travel instrument as it can be taken as cabin luggage on a plane, and played in any sitting, lying or standing position. You can also sneak unobtrusively into a session and check it out without people noticing your instrument, if you wish.

There are certainly some purists out there who don't think a mandolin even belongs in ITM (more so than in the other NAFT musics, and more so these days than in the past it seems). I can see the alarmed looks from them when I show up with a shiny resophonic mandolin. If I were to start clanging away on big chords or improvising over the top of their tunes, I could wreck their night. But these people are also more prevalent, or overt, online than in real life.

----------


## Tim2723

To avoid all these difficulties our session holds open auditions, collects dues, and requires newcomers to be AOH members in good standing with strong personal ties supporting the IRA and its agenda.

----------


## Dagger Gordon

Some good posts coming in now.  Thanks particularly to Paul, Jill and Bren.

I think part of it is a certain assumption about Irish sessions that somehow anything goes, and you can join in even if you don't have a clue what you're doing.  
I find it hard to imagine anybody making a similar assumption about jazz, for example, whether trad or modern.  There would surely be an expectation that you understood the music and had the technical ability to play it.  
The same could almost certainly be said for music from other countries.  I can't see someone just bashing away with some musicians from India (say) and expecting them to welcome you.  I don't see that an Irish session ( perhaps including Scottish, Canadian etc as Bren suggests) is any different.
Of course, if it's some sort of multi-cultural fusion then that is a different matter entirely.

----------


## Randi Gormley

I sometimes wonder if some of the crossover tunes add to the misconceptions. A couple of us took a break from a weeklong Irish workshop to wander over to Grey Fox, the big bluegrass festival up the street from our Catskills retreat. The first thing we heard as we walked past a music tent was "Star of the County Down" -- as a waltz. A very oompahpah waltz. We sing it as a fast ballad sort of thing not even in the same room as a strong waltz. The next tent up someone was playing St. Anne's Reel -- not as an Irish reel, but as something more swirly without the pulse. Perfectly lovely playing, but definitely NOT Irish. I can see someone sitting down to play one of those and not understanding the difference between the way the Irish trad players do them and what they're used to, since the notes are the same but the tunes aren't in their execution.

----------


## Brent Hutto

Randi,

Sounds to me like a classic case of mismatched expectations. A lot of folks have probably wandered into various "sessions" not knowing if they are specifically Irish trad, some sort of vaguely Irish flavored gathering or simply a jam session where they play a lot of tunes of Irish extraction. In fact, until I came to the Cafe and started reading these discussions I wouldn't have even known there was a distinction between those three things. Much less what exactly "Irish trad" entails...which turns to out be quite a lot, expectation-wise!

Any time someone shows up, instrument in hand, thinking they are at a wide-open gathering of people making joyful noise together when in fact they are in a group dedicated to a highly idiomatic and meticulously specific recreation of a fixed style and repertoire, there's going to be hard feelings on both sides. Yet it must be hard to communicate that to an unknown newcomer without coming across as "police-y" or unfriendly. If it were me walking in cluelessly, it would be merciful to explain it to me bluntly even if I walked away thinking the person who 'splained it to me was a jerk.

----------


## danb

Lots of great comments here. Paul really nailed it. I've been through a couple sides of this. In Madison, WI when I was a college kid I was *desperate* to take part, but soooo far away from being ready. I took my share of lumps from the session leaders and learned a bit at a time.

Spent about 10 years in Milwaukee after that, getting well past the 10 years' mark of learning tunes etc.  I was having a good span of years in the sessions there where I learned some tunes from the local session leaders, and ended up in various bands. Very nice change- I could really play just about anything folks would bring out in that town. I get to visit every so often and those tunes are like old friends to me, especially the ones nobody else seems to play!

I moved to the SF Bay Area, and that reset my "compatibility" back to about 20%. So lots more listening and learning, but this time without as many social mistakes. Moved myself to the back rows, played when I could, listened a lot, and worked through the frustration. Some players I encountered there with really bad attitudes, some that became great friends and playing partners. 

Now I've been in London for 8 years, and am just starting to know that same 20% of the tunes in circulation here. Vastly larger storehouse of tunes & inspirations, and soo many good players. I've worked on being the second accompanist, playing mandola.. that's a good way to get a better feel for the melodies. I usually only start a couple sets in the night, often when some of the principals take a break.

All of this is normal, it's quite abnormal to really be able to contribute musically to every single set in a trad session unless you have several years' experience there, which includes about 60% of the time finding the right personality traits to share at a session. 

Lots of players think that learning in another genre automatically translates to experience in trad playing, but it doesn't really work that way. The main thing to having a fun time is not going in with your ego pinned to your shirt, and be ready to contribute a small amount at a time for what may seem like quite a while to you!

----------


## allenhopkins

> ...The next tent up someone was playing St. Anne's Reel -- not as an Irish reel, but as something more swirly without the pulse. Perfectly lovely playing, but definitely NOT Irish...


Not too surprising, since I think _St Ann(e)'s Reel_ is a Canadian tune; some attribute it to Joseph Allard, a French-Canadian fiddler, and it was long associated with Don Messer.

By the way, little did I realize when I posted that li'l YouTube animation, what a long and intense discussion it would cause...

----------


## Nick Triesch

So lets see if I got it right....Spend 10 years learning celtic songs note for note the way they were passed down by ear to keep the tradition of some very old music.  Then learn 300 songs so you can play in a session where everybody plays them all the same with very little  change to the melody.  I guess not a good idea for someone who has ADHD!

----------


## Bren

Something like that, but 300  is a pretty small repertoire. Still, if you'd started ten years ago, you'd have a good bunch of tunes down by now.

----------


## dave

"Spend 10 years learning celtic songs". 
Could be a small part of the problem? Songs v tunes, big difference.

----------


## Brent Hutto

I'm afraid I'm with Nick on this. Knowing 300 idiomatically correct Irish tunes well enough to play the melodies at dance tempo-plus would be very cool. But I can think of many far cooler ways to spend the several thousand hours it would require. I can see the appeal but that appeal is not sufficient to make it worth committing a fair chunk of the rest of my life.

----------


## Jill McAuley

> ... Knowing 300 idiomatically correct Irish tunes well enough to play the melodies at dance tempo-plus would be very cool. But I can think of many far cooler ways to spend the several thousand hours it would require.....


Really? I can't think of cooler ways to spend those several thousand hours - does that make me a weirdo? Don't answer that!

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## allenhopkins

> ...I can't think of cooler ways to spend those several thousand hours...


_Six long months I spent up in Dublin, 
Six long months doing nothing at all, 
Six long months I spent up in Dublin, 
Learning to dance for Lanigan's Ball._

----------


## michaelpthompson

> Knocking MIDI is like knocking a hammer for not being a saw. Think of it as  one more tool in the musical toolbox, used especially for recording, and film composing. I've never seen it used onstage for anything like what we're talking about here. If a contra dance was played by a good MIDI keyboard player, I don't see why the dancers would even notice.


I don't know if anybody was KNOCKING MIDI, but as a medium of music, it's quite expressionless. It plays the tune with mathematical precision. That's not always the ideal for an Irish tune.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I can think of many far cooler ways to spend the several thousand hours it would require. I can see the appeal but that appeal is not sufficient to make it worth committing a fair chunk of the rest of my life.


I hear there are people who spend their life tasting wines, have hundreds of bottles in their cellars (which to me would taste pretty much the same) and still haven't found the one brand they want to stick with. But they all say it's worth their time.

We are not logging hours waiting to have potential fun at the end - we have fun from the start. And the wonderful feeling I have after one hour of practising I would never exchange for all the bottles of stomped-to-death grapes in the world. 

Give every man his dew.  :Wink:

----------


## Dagger Gordon

I play my mandolin every day.  I've got to play something when I do that.

I specialise in Scottish music, but it could as easily be Irish or classical or anything else.  So the hours, and indeed the years do mount up.  It's not a sentence.  I want to do it.

If you want to do something else it really doesn't bother us, but there's no need for sarcastic or mocking comments.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I usually only start a couple sets in the night, often when some of the principals take a break.
> 
> All of this is normal, it's quite abnormal to really be able to contribute musically to every single set in a trad session unless you have several years' experience there, which includes about 60% of the time finding the right personality traits to share at a session. 
> 
> Lots of players think that learning in another genre automatically translates to experience in trad playing, but it doesn't really work that way. The main thing to having a fun time is not going in with your ego pinned to your shirt, and be ready to contribute a small amount at a time for what may seem like quite a while to you!


Essentially my story. Practising long hours for 10% airtime in a session may not seem efficient to some, but learning to detach from pride and envy definitely is.

----------


## Bren

It doesn't take that long to learn a tune, but it's like a lot of things if you want to do them well - minutes to learn, a lifetime to master.

I must confess I'm not trying very hard be "idiomatically correct" etc when I try to play a tune I like. I'm just ... well, trying to play a tune I like, to the best of my ability. I'll end up playing it in a fairly personal way when playing solo or in small group, but regress toward a more bare bones version in a big session for the sake of compatibility. The lift you get when everything clicks into place like that more than makes up for the loss of individual nuance (though you'd be surprised how much survives).

There was a great clip (removed from YouTube unfortunately) of comedian Tommy Tiernan describing a session where the pub practically lifts off the ground with the energy. There's a lot more spontaneity, expressiveness and FUN in a good pub session than some of these online discussions would lead you to believe.

By the way, I'm speaking as a fairly average player with a relatively small repertoire - it really isn't that difficult to get started in sessions, and mostly they aren't such forbidding places. You just have to listen and "know" the music, same as you would in bluegrass, jazz or rock n roll. You dopn't start playing that stuff without having listened to and understood a lot of it first (perhaps subconsciously, since it's so prevalent)

----------


## Shelagh Moore

> I'll end up playing it in a fairly personal way when playing solo or in small group, but regress toward a more bare bones version in a big session for the sake of compatibility. The lift you get when everything clicks into place like that more than makes up for the loss of individual nuance (though you'd be surprised how much survives).


Ditto... this is essentially how I view it too. Having played in Irish and Scottish sessions regularly for the past 40 years I've been reading this thread with interest and, with a few posts, dismay. Although I've rarely experienced it personally, it seems to me those situations where people say they've been ignored or excluded don't represent what a true session should be. I work hard to make those I organise inclusive and welcoming, also to complete beginners and over the years I've seen many of those beginners blossom into accomplished musicians. I never work from dots myself but I'm happy if others use them for support. A good session should be as much about positive social interaction as it is about music.

----------


## danb

> So lets see if I got it right....Spend 10 years learning celtic songs note for note the way they were passed down by ear to keep the tradition of some very old music.  Then learn 300 songs so you can play in a session where everybody plays them all the same with very little  change to the melody.  I guess not a good idea for someone who has ADHD!


I think you missed it! It's more a case of listening for something different than you are used to listening for. It's actually not old, it's alive. The fact that it has had origins going back a while just show how long it has been evolving.

The form of the tune is synonymous to the mental picture you might have of a rose.  The rose in your head won't really ever match up to a real individual one on close inspection. It's the variations that make it beautiful, but without hearing it played differently by several folks you'll never see the music for the notes.

I think that trad music that is passed down by ear rather than by rote is very challenging to the ear, it's Analogue instead of Digital. It's ever-changing instead of locked in form. It's something that is much harder to learn to _hear_ than it is to learn to _play_.

Hearing the shape of the tune is the challenge- once you can hear it, know where it heads, and how your friends in the session are playing it, you'll be ready to contribute musically to it. The social scene often mirrors the music itself- the great ones have small egos and a lot of collaboration, but the thread that holds it together is ability to listen together

----------


## Gelsenbury

> The lift you get when everything clicks into place like that more than makes up for the loss of individual nuance (though you'd be surprised how much survives).
> 
> There was a great clip (removed from YouTube unfortunately) of comedian Tommy Tiernan describing a session where the pub practically lifts off the ground with the energy. There's a lot more spontaneity, expressiveness and FUN in a good pub session than some of these online discussions would lead you to believe.


Absolutely. I haven't visited many sessions, but every one of them has been like that. There is a special atmosphere, a special feeling, connected to what is occasionally being described dismissively here as "everyone just playing the same notes at the same time". To me, it's what folk music is all about. 

It's fine if that isn't everyone's cup of tea. But you are working within a different musical and traditional idiom when you want more individual contribution and expression.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I must confess I'm not trying very hard be "idiomatically correct"


+1
It's not a museum, it's life. I couldn't play this music upspeed on my OM without making allowances. 

Still, I take care not to kill the original feel of a tune in the process, not to digest the tune into a product of a different genre. ITM is ITM is ITM, it's not "BG done wrong". And it's not improvising - once I have a working version down I play it like that every time.

----------


## Brent Hutto

About 90% of my playing is Scottish, Irish and the occasional old-time American fiddle tunes. But I'm basically not a social person and if I had to learn each of those in accordance with someone else's exact form, tempo, melody and all but a few tiny bits of the interpretation...well, let's just say I'd rather not. 

I assume the motivating factor comes from feeling a certain affinity or shared sense of belonging to a long tradition of aurally passed down music. Whether it be an ancient Irish tradition, a Highland Scots tradition or an ancient Appalachian Mountain tradition the idea is to be a part of it by studying the idioms and tune repertoire as they've been passed down for generations. Is that the main thing that makes it attractive?

The problem being, I don't feel like part of any ancient traditions. It's music and I like to play the tunes that sound good to me. Correctly propagating a tradition is a valuable thing...if you're someone who feels a part of that community. If I had to choose one it would be some sort of Southeastern USA "old-time" kind of thing as at least one branch of my family had people in it who played that music. But to me they feel like ancestors, not like my "roots" or anything like that. And the ones who made music were all dead before I was born, not to mention assimilated into a different cultural context too.

----------


## Steve-o

> About 90% of my playing is Scottish, Irish and the occasional old-time American fiddle tunes. But I'm basically not a social person and if I had to learn each of those in accordance with someone else's exact form, tempo, melody and all but a few tiny bits of the interpretation...well, let's just say I'd rather not. 
> ...


Brent,
So I assume your 1,567 posts in the last 10-11 months were born out of your non-social preference  :Wink: .  Kidding aside, I'm basically an introvert who is quite comfortable playing by myself.  Yet, I have a real desire to improve musically and even _enjoy_ playing with others.  So after years of sitting on the fence, I recently went to a local session.  It was great fun, and very low key.  My sense was that this session allows for individuals to choose the tempo and nuances in interpreting a tune, and it was interesting to see how the group knew of each other's tendencies, and welcomed them.

Your comment about following someone else's "exact form, tempo, melody and all" would apply to nearly any group or band situation, unless you are playing free form improvisation, which is fine to do (and appeals to me as well).  As many have said, each to his own.

----------


## Brent Hutto

> So I assume your 1,567 posts in the last 10-11 months were born out of your non-social preference .


Most of those I thought I was talking to myself. Are you telling me you guys are real and not a figment of my imagination? Oh boy, I'm in trouble now...

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I assume the motivating factor comes from feeling a certain affinity or shared sense of belonging to a long tradition of aurally passed down music. 
> 
> ...the idea is to be a part of it by studying the idioms and tune repertoire as they've been passed down for generations. Is that the main thing that makes it attractive?


I can only speak for myself: I don't feel thrilled by history, and it is not important to me who passed it to whom.
That music directly speaks to my soul, and it has been that way even before I knew that Irish music existed.

_Example: A little German 8-yo-boy, I sang in a school choir. There was this one song - it had German lyrics, of course, but something gloriously different was about it, something magic about the melody and harmonics. Decades later, I found out the original name of the tune: Derry Air, aka Danny Boy._

Now go smile at a man who believes in stuff like that, but it is a stronger force than any intellectual engagement can deliver. It is not a choice I made - the music did. Ask a fish in the desert why he is interested in water.

----------


## Brent Hutto

Bertram,

If I'd had your particular set of experiences, I've no doubt I'd be seeking out every opportunity to delve deeper in the music. 

But that's sort of my point, there's kinds of music I respond enthusiastically to and other kinds I don't. But none that I've discovered yet which stand head and shoulder above the rest. 

I don't happen to know anyone in my non-online world who feels that way about Irish music but I have encountered a few folks who are that way about Bluegrass. It can become literally as much a part of their life as family or church or profession. I'd imagine it does have a wonderful side effect of enabling you to focus and accomplish more because your goal is so clearly seen and felt...

----------


## Shelagh Moore

> And it's not improvising - once I have a working version down I play it like that every time.


And I tend to play a piece a little bit differently every time I play depending on how I feel, the dynamics of the session, etc... which goes to show flexibility is possible as long as people are listening, interacting and respecting the general structure of the music.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> And I tend to play a piece a little bit differently every time I play depending on how I feel, the dynamics of the session, etc... which goes to show flexibility is possible as long as people are listening, interacting and respecting the general structure of the music.


If I look into details far enough, I do that as well, of course, but I file that under "production tolerances"  :Grin:

----------


## Jill McAuley

> Be
> 
> But that's sort of my point, there's kinds of music I respond enthusiastically to and other kinds I don't. But none that I've discovered yet which stand head and shoulder above the rest.


I was on a long drive with a co-worker once and we were making efforts at conversation - the topic got onto music and at one point I asked her "What band or type of music changed your life?" - she looked at me incredulously and snorted "Music doesn't _change_ your life!"  Well it certainly changed mine but as they say, your mileage will vary! There's been mention in this thread about having to invest or devote considerable time to learning this music - well, as Bertram and Dagger pointed out, this is something we enjoy doing, not a "sentence" we're enduring until we reach some end goal holy grail of "X" amount of tunes or whatever. It is quite true unfortunately that there isn't enough time in the day to do all the things we enjoy, that's why I only play music that speaks to me and that quite frankly has changed my life. 

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## Bren

> But I'm basically not a social person and if I had to learn each of those in accordance with someone else's exact form, tempo, melody and all but a few tiny bits of the interpretation


Well, a pub session is basically a social event for musicians, like meeting friends or friendly strangers with a common interest to play cards or pool, except you play tunes, so if you're not feeling social, it's maybe not for you. 

When you play tunes in a session, you aren't necessarily slavishly sticking to someone else's version - every participant has some altering effect, and you might even lead off with your own version. But you wouldn't sit down at a poker game and start playing Snap, and it's the same with tunes.

----------


## Jill McAuley

> But you wouldn't sit down at a poker game and start playing Snap, and it's the same with tunes.


Brilliant! Bren has summed it up with this statement, plus I nearly spat me tea onto the laptop when I read it!!

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## foldedpath

> I assume the motivating factor comes from feeling a certain affinity or shared sense of belonging to a long tradition of aurally passed down music. Whether it be an ancient Irish tradition, a Highland Scots tradition or an ancient Appalachian Mountain tradition the idea is to be a part of it by studying the idioms and tune repertoire as they've been passed down for generations. Is that the main thing that makes it attractive?


I don't think that's why most people get into playing this music. Heck, if we were that interested in honoring the aural tradition, we wouldn't be trying to play it on a mandolin. It's one of the most difficult instruments for articulation of the notes, and it's not the easiest thing to hear in a big session. 

I can't speak for everyone in my local area, but it seems to me that most people are attracted to Irish and Scottish trad by the intrinsic sound; the way a handful of notes can be combined in so many different ways to make up the repertoire, and the foot-tapping pulse of the dance rhythms. It's complex and simple at the same time, and a blast to play. What's not to like? 

Also, keep in mind that many sessions play recently-composed tunes, as well as the older stuff. In our session we play "Brenda Stubbert's," a reel composed by the Cape Breton fiddler Jerry Holland, and not that long ago in historical terms. It migrated into common repertoire because it's great tune. Liz Carroll compositions are popular in some sessions, not because they're ancient (they're not) or they even sound that much like ancient tunes (most of them don't, exactly), but just because they're terrific melodies. They still fit, more-or-less, within the tradition. 

So, the fact that some of these melodies are hundreds of years old and still survive is fascinating, but its not why I play them (or try to). I play them because they tickle my ear. And also, a little bit, for the technical challenge of learning how to ornament and express the melodies. It's a different type of challenge than, say, learning how to improvise a Bluegrass or Jazz solo. Like improv in those other genres, it's something I can grow into, and will never completely master. And meanwhile I'm enjoying the journey.

----------


## michaelpthompson

> Ok, so what have we learned so far: some sessions frown on sheet music and some embrace it with open arms, some sessions like to stay within the parameters of the tradition and some are really more like "celtic" flavoured jams, welcoming unusual instruments, tunes outside the tradition etc. Generally in life we gravitate towards folk we share common ground with - so how difficult is it for folk who like the "tradition" in traditional music to gravitate towards each other, and those who like a more loose fitting definition to gravitate towards each other, rather than instead just taking every opportunity to whinge about each other? If you don't like your local session then go start your own one.


Got it in one Jill. There are things I like about the traditional Irish session, and things I don't. But I know what they are, so I can avoid stepping on people's toes and ruining their experience. For all I've said about the value of the traditional way, I tend much more toward the open jam experience, with sheet music, lots of instrumentation, etc. In the session I host, we go around the circle and allow each player to choose the next piece of music. Not traditional, but much more egalitarian than the usual method of the most aggressive players leading out the majority of the tunes. Different strokes, right?




> Most of the unhappy Irish-seisún scenarios relayed above are the result of a collision of expectations, a lack of mutual goals, and perhaps a lack of understanding about the history of the music and the accepted norms of the tradition.<snip>
> 
> An Irish seisún isn't necessarily a "session" in the sense that most American musicians would understand it, and it certainly isn't a jam session. <snip>
> 
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with using sheet music or songbooks or teleprompters or anything that fosters congenial music making or with encouraging improvisation or free-form experimentation, too. 
> 
> But those things don't have much to do with a traditional seisún, and there's nothing wrong with trying to keep a few corners of the world where the traditions still live.


Marvelously cogent analysis Paul. Best summary I've seen yet. There's nothing at all wrong with sheet music or "creativity" in themselves, they're just not part of the traditional Irish session. Know and respect the differences and we'll all have less conflict in our lives.  :Smile:

----------


## Nick Triesch

Sorry folks.  I'm just trying to save you cranky session people from playing that drab music and get up to the mountains,  crack a beer and start playing a ton of all kinds of tunes from rock to folk to the Stones!  Then eat Chile dogs and drink more beer!  I bet you don't even use a capo!    Anyway,  try to have fun anyway and be sure to post your session rules!   Nick

----------


## Bren

What makes you think they don't do that already?
Learning loads of tunes is a great way to develop as a musician. Although I draw the line at eating dogs, from Chile or anywhere else.

----------


## foldedpath

Wait... I thought we _already were_ playing the original mountain music, drinking, and dancing music?

Signed, confused.

----------


## Steve-o

Easy there Nick.  You may be having fun, but you're trolling now.  I suggest you hang out on the rock forum if that's your fancy.

----------


## John Flynn

I fully intend this to be my only post on this thread. I am weary of getting into arguments over this topic. As an experienced player on my instrument I have tried, with some success but not as much as I would like, for over five years to fit in with sessions in three different cities. I guess what I was hoping to find here, and elsewhere, was some encouragement, some hope, some direction. 

What I have taken from threads on this general topic is that trad is traditional, so it can preserve a long-standing cultural history, but also flexible. However it's only flexible according to a set of mostly unwritten rules made up often by modern people who didn't actually grow up in the cultural tradition, rules that seem to be fairly inflexible, even to an experienced player from other traditions. I also take away that that trad is welcoming of beginners, unless they actually try to play at sessions without knowing hundreds of tunes they can play nearly perfectly at way-over-dance-tempo speeds. Then the beginners are ridiculed and ostracized, I guess because friendly counseling and encouragement would not be part of the tradition. 

I have noticed the one exception to this rule is if you are a beginning piper. Then you can sit there and sound like you are tooting on cartoon car horns every set and people think you're great. If you're playing mandolin, however, you are held to a higher standard, which is strange considering you can't actually hear a mandolin at the volume of most sessions. You could have a whole section of them playing chop chords out of time and you would never know it.

Well, and I'm not just saying this for effect, I've decided that despite my love of the music and my Irish heritage, trad is better off without me and I am better off without trad. I really have no bitterness about it. I accept that it is what it is and that's something I'd rather not be a part of. I will stay home and play my O'Carolan tunes (the real traditional Irish music, IMHO). I resisted this idea when these threads first started, but now I see the light. Music should be fun, relaxing and invigorating, not depricating. Thanks for helping me come to this conclusion. We'll all be happier. Peace.

----------


## Paul Kotapish

I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread to date, so I thought I'd suggest this sweet little book, which provides a wonderful glimpse inside the workings of a smokey, Guinness-soaked Irish tune seisún. It's a fun, quick read, and full of worthy insights.



It's not likely to be at your local bookseller, but ask. If not, you can get it here.

I don't think there's any explaining the passion for--or the compulsion to learn more--tunes. I think most of us tune nuts have had some kind of Damascus moment where the scales fell from our ears and the beauty of the universe was revealed to us in 32 compact bars. Every new tune unveils a fresh facet of that gorgeous revelation, and we can't help but be compelled to learn more . . . and more . . . and more. 

It doesn't matter that there is, in fact, some cruel truth to the old saw, "If you've heard one Irish tune, you've heard both of them."

When it comes to matters of musical taste, I just defer to Sir Thomas Beecham's observation that "Most people don't really understand music, they just like the noise it makes."

----------


## Bren

Paul, that book's out of print but I got a mint condition hardback for £3 on eBay some time ago. Lent it to a guitarist and haven't seen it since.



> I have noticed the one exception to this rule is if you are a beginning piper. Then you can sit there and sound like you are tooting on cartoon car horns every set and people think you're great. If you're playing mandolin, however, you are held to a higher standard, which is strange considering you can't actually hear a mandolin at the volume of most sessions.


Haha - that is very true of some sessions I've visited. Usually the parping piper is a member of the local Comhaltas or suchlike, so has a ready coterie of well-wishers. But most sessions aren't like that - I just think you've had bad luck John Flynn. 

(also it's undeniable that pipes are much harder to _learn_ than mandolin - although I'd contend that all instruments are equally difficult to _master_ . Perhaps more to the point, pipes are near impossible to ignore and play over the top of )

If you can play a few tunes at a steady rhythm no matter what speed, most places will accept you.

How I started on sessions was playing with friends in their houses, then we went down to the pub together, with some tunes we could play already. That's a lot easier than going in cold and I'd recommend it to anyone as a first move. If you don't have friends who play, try contacting people on thesession.org or whatever who live in your area and explain that you'd like to meet regularly for tunes.

----------


## Brent Hutto

> I don't think there's any explaining the passion for--or the compulsion to learn more--tunes. I think most of us tune nuts have had some kind of Damascus moment where the scales fell from our ears and the beauty of the universe was revealed to us in 32 compact bars. Every new tune unveils a fresh facet of that gorgeous revelation, and we can't help but be compelled to learn more . . . and more . . . and more.


I'll venture the thought that the "passion" for learning "more tunes" must be the real underlying requirement for all this to be something worth doing. 

For my part I like playing a lot of different tunes and I know a few of them pretty well but I'm lacking that urge to have more and more tunes (Irish or otherwise) stored away in my head ready to be played. That's probably why I ask so many impertinent questions trying to understand why it appeals so strongly to a lot of people. Without that burning urge to stock up the mental library of tunes it's just not really something I'll ever quite understand.

----------


## brunello97

Brent, I guess part of 'understanding' what motivates someone else to do something is the stepping back away from measuring it by what you might do yourself....... (As true in the sciences as in the arts.)  The impertinence of questions will quickly dissolve into something more sympathetic. Or perhaps go away altogether.

Mick

----------


## Brent Hutto

Well that's sort of what I'm trying to do and I think I've zeroed in on a couple of things. The learning/knowing of a large body of tunes is one thing. And the enjoying hanging out with an ongoing group as a socially enjoyable way to spend an evening even if you don't necessarily do a lot of playing (for a while at first). Sounds like if either or both of those things you find satisfying the whole scene makes a lot more sense. And as Jill says, some people just connect with the music itself in a way that makes it hard to get enough of it in all forms. 

None of those are the sort of things that would occur to me from my own perspective. So that's why I ask questions and stay engaged in these discussions.

----------


## brunello97

QED, amigo.

Mick

----------


## allenhopkins

I guess I'm really sorry that some of my Cafe cyber-friends have had discouraging and unpleasant experiences trying to participate in Celtic seisuns.  I'm sorta half-in, half-out of serious "Irish trad."  I've been playing in a Celtic or "Celtic lite" bands, first Thistledown and now Innisfree, for nearly 30 years, but could never claim to "know hundreds of tunes."  As a mandolin/mandola/octave-mandolin/mandocellist, with a bit of English-system concertina, tenor banjo and guitar, I've divided my participation between playing lead (and sometimes harmony) on tunes I do know, and rhythm on other tunes.  There's a very active Comhaltas chapter in Rochester, and I've played at many seisuns, though I don't go regularly.

I've found the "trad" players here to be friendly, tolerant, welcoming of the less-experienced, and pretty forgiving of mistakes.  There are a few arhythmic bodhran players, and "mouth music" contraltos, who do get the "fish eye" now and again, if they persist in mucking things up for the majority of participants, but even they don't get run out of the room.  Someone like *Ted McGraw,* forty-plus years of playing and broadcasting Irish music, and a member of the Irish Music Hall of Fame, is as friendly to the inexperienced and awkward as anyone could be.

So I'd hope that those who have gotten the cold shoulder on occasion, or who find the atmosphere or orientation of seisuns in their areas inhospitable, won't give up entirely and write off "trad" players as snooty exclusivists pursuing an arcane discipline that tolerates no heresies and accepts no initiates.  There probably are such seisuns, but I've found many more that welcome musicians short of the Ninth Circle of Trad-ness.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I have noticed the one exception to this rule is if you are a beginning piper. Then you can sit there and sound like you are tooting on cartoon car horns every set and people think you're great.


 :Laughing:  :Laughing:  It's the courage that gets credit. With such an instrument, you can't noodle quietly, every mistake is broadcast. Thus, attending a session as a beginner is like cordless bungee jumping, hence the respect.




> Every new tune unveils a fresh facet of that gorgeous revelation, and we can't help but be compelled to learn more . . . and more . . . and more.


Echoing that famous Bilbo Baggins quote _"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to."_  :Cool:

----------


## chriss

> I'll venture the thought that the "passion" for learning "more tunes" must be the real underlying requirement for all this to be something worth doing. Without that burning urge to stock up the mental library of tunes it's just not really something I'll ever quite understand.


Hmmm - interesting perspective and in some ways other-way-round from my own, which isn't better or worse but just different.  I enjoy 2-3 local sessions very much, and again I've received encouragement as I sit there for 2 hrs with my laptop open, trying to find the tune quickly, playing it louder if I know it, and less so if I know it less, or maybe just picking out the downbeat note each measure if I'm flat-out sight reading it - not a strong suit of mine.  Been doing this for 1.5 years and people are still OK with it.  I can probably play 10-15-20 without the dots.

Like you Brent, I don't have a burning desire to memorize 100's of tunes, memorizing is time-consuming, not very rewarding, and certainly only moderately successful for me.  But I do really enjoy being in amongst the music in the session, really enjoy the ones I know, and almost always come home from a session with one or 2 more that I like enough that I WISH I knew them, and invest some time with going forwards.  Rather than burning desire to memorize (not!), I'd describe it more that I hope, and look forward to the point in the future where, having enjoyed playing the music for years, which will honestly be very much with the laptop/ABC for a long time to come, that at some point I've memorized more of them.  But it'll be the result of lots of time enjoying it, rather than a ton of time committed to + investing in specifically getting tunes driven into my not-real-effective memory banks.  I don't have that kinda time in my life now, and don't enjoy it (memorizing) enuf to do it if I DID have the time.  I'm out to enjoy the music and that works way better with the dots for me, and will for a long time.  Sounds like I'm really lucky to be in a place where the session people don't have a problem with that.

YMMV

----------


## Bren

> But it'll be the result of lots of time enjoying it, rather than a ton of time committed to + investing in specifically getting tunes driven into my not-real-effective memory banks.


I'd wager that's much the same for folk who have learned the tunes. It's not like memorising a maths equation, more like learning how to play football or make love (the laptop could be interesting in that context). There's instinct and desire as well as discipline involved.

----------


## Jill McAuley

All this talk of "memorising" strikes an odd chord for me really, because I don't consciously sit down to do that with tunes, I just learn tunes that I love - whether it's a tune I've listened to for ages and always wanted to learn, or one I've just stumbled across, the common denominator is that I hear it and go "janey mack I need to learn that one!" So the tune is already swirling around in my head - once I find the first few notes then the rest tends to fall into place. So I never feel like I'm "memorising" the tunes, rather I'm discovering how to play them, and once I've discovered how then they're there in the memory bank. Then again that might be an argument for trying to learn by ear rather than dots, tab or ABC's - when I first started playing I discovered that if I used tab to learn a tune that I was kind of dependent on it, and found it difficult to play the tune without it (I'm less dependent on ABC's). But, having developed a good ear from years of guitar playing, very early on with the mandolin I started picking out tunes by ear (many times because I found the available ABC's for them to not quite be right, or at least not the version that I was wanting) - maybe it's because *I'm* discovering the notes for myself, rather than following someone else's roadmap for them, that "remembering" them isn't an issue.

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## Shelagh Moore

Same learning for me as for Jill... I rarely have to do much memorising. Depending on the tune this can range from learning "on the fly" playing along with someone where I might have it by, say, the third time through to sitting for a couple of minutes and thinking about the tune and then working it through a couple of times. For me it seems to be an almost automatic and unconcious process and the tunes generally stay there afterwards (unless they are particularly bland). I expect learning by ear helps this process. What is strange is that tunes I know I haven't played in 30 years sometimes bubble to the top without warning. I'd love to know how the brain does that.

----------


## abuteague

I really like Irish traditional music. I like learning the tunes by ear, playing with others, and listening to really great players. The structure that comes with the tradition has never been limiting. Learning a common library of tunes in a tradition sounds like cool to me and I'm willing to work toward it even as it takes me years to adapt to it. 

When people get together to share in traditional music, it is like the group together shares a common collective memory. If you don't share that common collective memory, what can you contribute? How do you avoid being disruptive and disrespectful? Much better to come and listen and learn until you have that common collective memory in place. Then you can all go over those tunes with others like recalling old friends. 

I don't profess to know 100s of tunes. I just play the ones I like. Sometimes I find out I've memorized a tune by accident. I'm trying to play one tune and the other one comes out first. That is the hazard of learning by ear. There is lots of stuff going into my ears and I tend to be better able to recall it than the notation I've seen. This has been a recent lesson for me as I started with tab and then moved to notation before trying my ears out.

I've run into rude people too. Some of them play music. I don't blame the music for their rudeness though. I don't associate their rudeness with the music they play. 
If someone claims to know some history about a tune that I don't know, well, I'm open to it. If it turns out that it is really just a ruse for actual rudeness, well, it wasn't the tune's fault.

Only once in my life do I recall running into an ignorant fool who claimed absolute authority over a subject he had no mastery of. It was more comical than rudeness and kind of sad. Many people tried to help this poor soul. I don't personally know any misinformed and militant self professed gate keepers of the tradition.

But instead of dwelling on these things, why not play music that makes you happy with people who make you happy?  Doesn't that make more sense? If spending the time to learn a collection of traditional Irish tunes that you share in common with other players who are similarly inclined sounds like a burden, then opt out and don't do it. Please don't be too hard or judgmental to those who think it is enjoyable.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> All this talk of "memorising" strikes an odd chord for me really, because I don't consciously sit down to do that with tunes


+1
I am not memorizing tunes in a conscious act, like maybe an actor would memorize his text.
Playing the instrument runs on procedural memory, like walking. You don't learn to walk every day, you just do it. Tunes are like destinations you walk to every day, like the way to work, the way round the corner to the chemist etc. Playing from notation every time would be like using a navigation system to make sure you don't get lost on the way to the restrooms.

----------


## Dagger Gordon

It's maybe worth saying that being able to play at sessions isn't the only reason why people would learn tunes.

You may well find it much more rewarding to have regular get-togethers with some musical friends, and play tunes which you have collectively chosen to learn.  That way you can have a manageable number of tunes to learn.  Once you get into the way of learning and then playing tunes, you are likely to find it easier and it doesn't take you so long to know them.

Sessions aren't everyone's cup of tea (or indeed pint of Guinness), but they are fine for what they are - a chance for people to meet and play music.

----------


## Randi Gormley

I'll add my nod to Jill and the others who chimed in for feeling kind of odd about the whole idea of "memorizing" tunes -- I'm not sure what I would call the process by which I've ended up recognizing and being able to play certain tunes, but it's not anything as deliberate as memorization (although after years of community theater, I have a pretty good knack for remembering stuff. If only it carried on to my real life!). It's more recognition, if anything. I'll play through tunes from my myriad books night after night just because I like them (once through each for, say, 30 reels; once each for another 25 jigs; once each for 10 hornpipes, 60 minutes playing done after dinner ...) and when they come up in a session, suddenly they're there in my fingers. I'll be sitting quietly listening to a CD or with my mandolin in my lap at a bar session listening and something comes up that's familiar and I join in the stream of music with -- well, it seems odd to say 'joy' but that kind of touches on it. Like hugging an old friend. 

I was sitting in a giant session last summer at an Irish trad workshop week mostly with my mandolin in my lap (most of these guys specialize in obscure) and someone started a tune that few people seemed to know starting out. But as it was replayed, more and more people joined in and the form of the reel was such that you could hear the pattern and the lift race around the room like a wind and swirl past the players. The music was perfectly balanced, somehow, calling and responding from side to side. I didn't even attempt to join, just closed my eyes and got washed away by the sound. It was extraordinary. I recall that as an ideal, something I'd probably never hear in a pub session, but to me that's one of the reasons I still participate despite egos and human frailties and rude people. It really is about the music.

----------


## JeffD

> All this talk of "memorising" strikes an odd chord for me really, because I don't consciously sit down to do that with tunes, I just learn tunes that I love - whether it's a tune I've listened to for ages and always wanted to learn, or one I've just stumbled across, the common denominator is that I hear it and go "janey mack I need to learn that one!" So the tune is already swirling around in my head - once I find the first few notes then the rest tends to fall into place. So I never feel like I'm "memorising" the tunes, rather I'm discovering how to play them, and once I've discovered how then they're there in the memory bank. l


Well said. Same for me.

I have no desire to memorize anything actually, and the idea of memorizing hundreds of tunes sounds a lot like learning to resite the tax code.  But... I have fallen head over heals in love with many many tunes, and they are a part of me, and I am sure there are many hundreds of them back there where ever it is they get stored up.

Fall in love with one tune so much that you drink it all in. Once you do that once, you'll do it over and over and over and...

----------


## JeffD

> It's maybe worth saying that being able to play at sessions isn't the only reason why people would learn tunes.
> 
> You may well find it much more rewarding to have regular get-togethers with some musical friends, and play tunes which you have collectively chosen to learn.  That way you can have a manageable number of tunes to learn.  Once you get into the way of learning and then playing tunes, you are likely to find it easier and it doesn't take you so long to know them.
> 
> Sessions aren't everyone's cup of tea (or indeed pint of Guinness), but they are fine for what they are - a chance for people to meet and play music.


Well said. Excellent thought. 

I don't doubt, BTW, that there are more than a few sessions that started as a group of friends getting together to play tunes they want to learn, and then one fellow says: 'is it ok if I bring Mathilde, she knows a lot of these tunes and is great on the flute" and someone else eventually says: "hey everyone, met Hendrick, he's just going to listen, but he plays classical violin and wants to learn some of the tunes we do"...    

and soon enough you have a regularly meeting session about which newbies can complain.   :Smile:

----------


## chriss

> Same learning for me as for Jill... I rarely have to do much memorising.


I think you guys are lucky to have an ear + a memory that works that way!!!  Wishing mine was more like that, and looking for a good way to enjoy the music with what I got.

----------


## Jill McAuley

> I think you guys are lucky to have an ear + a memory that works that way!!!  Wishing mine was more like that, and looking for a good way to enjoy the music with what I got.


I don't think there's anything "special" about the way I approach learning and retaining a tune - maybe that's because I seek out lots of versions of the tune and listen to them over and over so I internalize the tune - then there's nothing to remember. The same happens when I hear a previously unfamiliar to me tune - generally there's something about it that grabs my attention and makes it stick in my head, so again, no memorising needed - the tune is there and the notes fall into place. Often times, when I'm on the train or driving, or out walking my dogs, I'll lilt a tune to myself and work on variations for it in my head - as soon as I get home I'll grab the mandolin/banjo and try them out.  

I can hear a song by a band I listened to years ago and I still know all the words to it - not because I sat down and "memorised" them, but rather because I loved the song and the more I listened the more I knew all the words - does that make sense?

Cheers,
Jill

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I don't doubt, BTW, that there are more than a few sessions that started as a group of friends getting together to play tunes they want to learn, and then one fellow says: 'is it ok if I bring Mathilde, she knows a lot of these tunes and is great on the flute"


Oh please Jeff, *not* Mathilde!  :Crying:  :Crying: 
(That was my mother's first name, and she was the type you'd change time and place of the session for without letting her know...




> I think you guys are lucky to have an ear + a memory that works that way!!!  Wishing mine was more like that, and looking for a good way to enjoy the music with what I got.


Most people are used to know some tunes by heart - everybody can sing Happy Birthday without standard notation. The only difference with Irish tunes is: there are more of them - the sheer mass tends to frighten people. They're used to playing in a puddle, but here's an ocean.

----------


## danb

> You may well find it much more rewarding to have regular get-togethers with some musical friends, and play tunes which you have collectively chosen to learn.


Very good advice. This is how sessions get started, and is another key to understanding them. Often they seem "unwelcoming" because the newcomers aren't sensitive to that vibe. The more socially competent and friendly the players are, the more likely you are to have a good experience as a neophyte. 

Culturally speaking, American individualism and self-assertiveness often clashes with the social scene in a trad session. Having been to a bunch of jams stateside and accross the atlantic where I've now settled, this was the biggest noticeable adjustment I needed to make- turn down the Me to get more of the Us out of the music!

----------


## zoukboy

I think it really helps to think of particular traditional music styles in linguistic terms. Learning a trad style to which you are non-native is every bit as hard as learning a foreign language and has many of the same challenges. I use this analogy a lot in my teaching and it often helps folks set realistic goals for learning and playing.

Much of the friction described in this thread is most probably a matter of learners who are not yet fluent interfacing with more fluent practitioners.

Learning your first few Irish tunes doesn't prepare you to participate in a hardcore trad Irish session any more than memorizing 50 French phrases from a Berlitz book prepares you for a discussion of Proust.

Just as native Gaelic speakers in the west of Ireland will often graciously accommodate a learner from abroad, many session leaders will do all they can to include learners.  But if you haven't any vocabulary, your grammar is incomplete, and your accent unintelligible, then you will have a hard time being understood. A session is not the place to learn the rudiments unless it is a learning session.

Same goes for knowing the tunes, understanding the elements of the style, and having a grasp of the rhythmic characteristics.  It's not simply a matter of learning notes.  Notes are the least of it and that is why printed music is not used at sessions.  If you are reading then you don't know the style. If you have to rely on a phrase book then you aren't fluent in the language and can only communicate in a rudimentary way.

----------


## michaelpthompson

A great analogy Roger, and as you point out, most session leaders, in this country or elsewhere, will bend over backward to accommodate those not entirely fluent. The difficulty arises when those who are less than fluent are under the impression they can speak the language quite well. To wit:

----------


## Bertram Henze

The language analogy does reach very far, but apparently not far enough, or else we would have much more to laugh at our sessions  :Laughing: 

French is a good choice for this analogy, too. While English speakers are tolerant about the vast variety of skills and accents they encounter, the French are not. It was always my impression that, if you don't speak French, they don't want you in France.

----------


## EdSherry

Lots of factors go into whether you and a particular session are a "good fit":  atmposphere/noise level, location [how long does it take to get there and back], number of attendees (both in total, on particular instruments, and on "your" instrument), overall aptitude/speed level of the performers, variability in aptitude level [is everyone about the same?  or is there a wide variation in ability?], tune mix [do all they want to do is play jigs while you're craving reels?  what about waltzes?  polkas?  hornpipes?  songs?), structure [leader/follower or more 'democratic'], attitude of the leother participants [welcoming?  tolerant?  willing to suggest to those who aren't fitting in that they shouldn't continue doing what they do], "clued-inness" vs. "cluelessness" of some/many/most participants; etc., etc.

I've been to sessions that I find "fit" me very well.  I've been to very hospitable sessions that I don't find challenging enough (too slow).  Conversely, I've been to sessions that are simply too challenging to be enjoyable.  I've been to sessions that have high-quiality music but a "non-welcoming" atmosphere [whether generally or to those who aren't able to 'keep up'].  I've been to sessions that are very open to a wide range of tunes (Scottish, French Canadian, Appalachian as well as Irish] and others that are much less so.

Over the last 15 years or so, I've been fortunate to find a number of local sessions that I enjoy atttending and feel comfortable attending.  There are other sessions that I won't go back to. for a variety of reasons.

I'm always hopeful when another session springs up in the area (even if it's not my cup of tea, it may be for someone else), and I'm sometimes disappointed when one of my favorites "dies" for one reason or another, or "morphs" from being a fun session (for me!) to beng less so.   

I often wish that some folks would "get a clue" about "proper session etiquette," but I also fully realize that others have a very different sense of what "proper session etiquette" is than I do. 

What I've learned is that pver-generalizations about "ITM" or "sessions" or "attitudes" or ... rarely help shed much light on the issues.

----------


## zoukboy

> What I've learned is that pver-generalizations about "ITM" or "sessions" or "attitudes" or ... rarely help shed much light on the issues.


I agree with that, Ed. Each session is its own thing just like every conversation. I'll only add that playing isn't the only way to participate in a session. Just as in conversation, if one doesn't have anything to add (or isn't yet at the level of the conversation) then listening is the best way to participate.

----------


## bobby bill

> Same goes for knowing the tunes, understanding the elements of the style, and having a grasp of the rhythmic characteristics. It's not simply a matter of learning notes. Notes are the least of it and that is why printed music is not used at sessions. If you are reading then you don't know the style.


Still trying to get educated here.  Isn't "understanding the elements of the style, and having a grasp of the rhythmic characteristics" important in every single kind of music?  Why is there an insistance that Irish traditional music is different in this regard?

And why does having music in front of you mean that you do not know the style?  Mutually exclusive?  Are you saying that the thousands of highly trained musicians playing in symphony orchestra's across the globe do not know the style of music they are playing because they have music in front of them?

Do you believe that classical musicians get all the musical information they need from the dots in front of them and it is only players of Irish traditional music (well, you included other traditional music) that require additional musical information (such as "elements of the style" and "rhythmic characteristics") to play right?

Don't worry - I'm not trying to bust in on your session with an armload of sheet music.  I absolutely agree with the notion that if you don't like a sesssion, you should start your own.  I guess I'm just trying to combat what I believe to be a myth - that having musical information in front of you (1) is a sign that you lack other musical information, and/or (2) actually prevents you from obtaining additional musical information.

----------


## Steve L

[QUOTE=bobby bill;938402]Still trying to get educated here.  Isn't "understanding the elements of the style, and having a grasp of the rhythmic characteristics" important in every single kind of music?  Why is there an insistance that Irish traditional music is different in this regard?


That's what we'd like to know.

----------


## John Flynn

> I agree with that, Ed. Each session is its own thing just like every conversation. I'll only add that playing isn't the only way to participate in a session. Just as in conversation, if one doesn't have anything to add (or isn't yet at the level of the conversation) then listening is the best way to participate.


Roger, I have ton of respect for you, I really like your recordings and I really enjoyed the workshop I took with you, so please don't take this too negatively, but I have to be honest and say your post comes off as just a tiny bit condescending. 

Although I admit sessions are distinct from old-time, bluegrass and blues jams in many ways, they all have one thing in common and that is they are participation music. My interest in sessions was (and I say "was" very intentionally, per my previous post) in playing music with others, and my guess is that is true for many musicians interested in ITM sessions. 

I segment my interests in listening versus playing music. For listening, my tastes vary widely. I like opera, but I would never try to sing it. I like Hindu kirtan chanting, but I will not be visiting an ashram soon. And if I want to listen to Irish music, I will pop your "Dragon Reels" into my CD player and enjoy the heck out of it, because it's great stuff.

But I don't go to parties just hear to other people talk while I stand there like a dummy, I don't go to dances to watch other people dance (even though I am an awful dancer!) and I don't go to 5K races to watch other people run. Similarly, I don't go to sessions or jams to listen to other people play. I go to play, or I stay away. 

Saying in effect, "just sit in the corner and watch how the big people do it" doesn't have a good ring for me. If that is the ethic in ITM, fine, it's just not for me, which after five years of trying, is the decision I have chosen to make and I blame no one for it. I just don't buy the suggestion that anyone who is interested in actually playing has to sit around for years in bars paying way too much for Guiness, waiting for the magic to hit. Be honest, is that what you did? For how many years?

----------


## Steve L

Watching how the big people do it is one leg of the table.  Asking them how they do it, studying what they do, and working out how to do it yourself either on your own or with a teacher are the other three.  I had been studying and learning tunes in a slow session repertoire class with a world class player for quite a while and it was about 3- 5 years and a lot of creaky (and very enjoyable) house sessions before i thought I was good enough to play in pubs and it was slow going then.  I had been a pro player for most of my life at that point and as much as it helped me, it got in the way just as much.  I took up the mandolin  because I wanted to start out on an instrument I was completely unfamiliar with.  I wanted to play Irish music, the mandolin was a means to that end. 

 And I'll tell you, on the extremely rare occaisions when I've been at the table when people like Seamus Connolly or Ben and Charlie Lennon turn up, I'm still watching how the big people do it and I hope that feeling never leaves me. It is both a joy and an education to put down the instrument, close your eyes and feel the force of that music through those people.

----------


## foldedpath

> And why does having music in front of you mean that you do not know the style?  Mutually exclusive?  Are you saying that the thousands of highly trained musicians playing in symphony orchestra's across the globe do not know the style of music they are playing because they have music in front of them?
> 
> Do you believe that classical musicians get all the musical information they need from the dots in front of them and it is only players of Irish traditional music (well, you included other traditional music) that require additional musical information (such as "elements of the style" and "rhythmic characteristics") to play right?


Well, look at it this way. If a classical musician started to play any "extra" notes that weren't on the paper, like little finger taps on a different note, or doing a quick 5-note articulation around the note on the paper, then that musician would be fired from the orchestra. On the other hand, a good Irish trad musician _has_ to be playing all that stuff that isn't on the sheet music, or it doesn't sound Irish. Not just the articulations, but subtleties in rhythm and even pitch of the notes (for non-fretted instruments).

Like many other folk music traditions, Irish trad developed some weird habits from early instruments as part of the style. For example, the "cut" articulation, which was the only way early pipers could play two consecutive notes on a reed chanter that blew a continuous tone. And then later instruments that could stop a note like fiddles and flutes, continued using those articulations because it "sounded Irish." This _articulation_ of notes in the tune is at the heart of the music, and it's not represented in standard sheet music. 

There are also problems with rhythm notation. The subtleties of the different dance rhythms don't always lend themselves to to being locked down in rigid sheet music. Hornpipes are usually played with a little swing and bounce, but not all of them are, and it varies by local session. The sheet music won't tell you how much swing to use on a hornpipe. It won't tell you exactly how the rhythms vary between a march, a reel, and a strathspey (I get confused on that myself sometimes, and the only cure is to _listen_ to other players or recorded examples, not refer to sheet music). 

One other thing I'll mention just in passing -- because it's not all that relevant to a fretted instrument like mandolin -- is the way players of non-fretted instruments will sometimes depart from strict 12-tone equal temperament. As in, bending a C note so it floats somewhere between C natural and C#. That's something you might have to adapt to in a session, and there's no way to represent that kind of thing in standard sheet music. You have to train your ear to hear it, and as the player of a fretted instrument like mandolin, adapt to it as best you can (especially if you're backing with chords).

All of this is why sheet music is deprecated in Irish trad circles, except as a jump-start for learning tunes at home (or sometimes, a reminder of how a tune starts). There is nothing unique about Irish trad in this respect. It's how most folk music traditions work. It can seem a bit strange for those of us raised in the USA on music like rock, folk, blues, or bluegrass, probably because those American styles don't involve that much rhythm subtlety, and it's not heavily ornamented. American music styles "fit" better on sheet music, so we tend to think sheet music should work for all other styles too.

----------


## foldedpath

> Although I admit sessions are distinct from old-time, bluegrass and blues jams in many ways, they all have one thing in common and that is they are participation music.


There is one big structural difference between those styles and Irish traditional music, and it's at the heart of a lot of the conflict I see here (and also locally, in a few actual sessions). 

The music in OldTime, Bluegrass, and Blues is founded on a chord sequence that everyone knows, or can quickly pick up in a jam. So any number of chordal backup players can be accommodated in a jam (well, maybe not banjos). In fact, it doesn't sound good unless you have at least a few people playing chord backup. If you sit in at an OldTime session and don't know the tune, just start playing chords, no problem. These jams are very social, participatory events precisely because they can include both the people who can play the melodies, and those who just want to go along for the ride, leaning on other folks' knowledge of the tunes being played. 

You can probably see where I'm going, but here it is anyway.  :Smile: 

Irish traditional music doesn't work like that. It developed as a tradition where melody is everything, and chordal backup is 1) very recent, 2) subject to individual interpretation, due to the "modal" nature of the music, and 3) usually not tolerant of too many people trying to play backup at the same time. That's just the way it is. Someone who takes the time to learn the tunes being played at local sessions will always be welcome. Someone who wants to sit in without making an effort to learn the tunes, not so much. 

Most of the angst I've seen between Irish and OldTime/Bluegrass/Blues players has revolved around this issue of not wanting to invest the effort in learning the tunes, and wanting to sit in and play along with the group anyway. And also maybe, assuming there is a stigma about sitting out a tune when you would be more of a distraction, when in fact that's something greatly appreciated at most Irish sessions.

----------


## JeffD

> Irish traditional music doesn't work like that. It developed as a tradition where melody is everything, and chordal backup is 1) very recent, 2) subject to individual interpretation, due to the "modal" nature of the music, and 3) usually not tolerant of too many people trying to play backup at the same time. That's just the way it is. Someone who takes the time to learn the tunes being played at local sessions will always be welcome. Someone who wants to sit in without making an effort to learn the tunes, not so much. 
> 
> Most of the angst I've seen between Irish and OldTime/Bluegrass/Blues players has revolved around this issue of not wanting to invest the effort in learning the tunes, and wanting to sit in and play along with the group anyway. And also maybe, assuming there is a stigma about sitting out a tune when you would be more of a distraction, when in fact that's something greatly appreciated at most Irish sessions.


To further complicate things - IT and OT do not by and large incorporate improvization. They are much more about the tune and playing the tune. BG and Blues and Jazz, and Rock, are much more about taking breaks and improvising and about using the tune as a starting point to express yourself.

So yea, they are all participatory, but there are some huge differences that make it a good SOP to listen first and see if its your cup of tea before joining, or moving on if it isn't.

----------


## JeffD

> Most of the angst I've seen between Irish and OldTime/Bluegrass/Blues players has revolved around this issue of not wanting to invest the effort in learning the tunes, and wanting to sit in and play along with the group anyway. And also maybe, assuming there is a stigma about sitting out a tune when you would be more of a distraction, when in fact that's something greatly appreciated at most Irish sessions.


I would put OT more with IT on this, and then add that the "other stuff" can look like "not wanting to learn the tune", when really it is just a different musical culture where the tune is a stepping off point, not a goal. I mean, there are always those who don't want to learn the tune, but even in an improvizational music, knowing the tune is the key to success, and not knowing the tune is frowned upon and shows up quickly.

----------


## Brent Hutto

> And why does having music in front of you mean that you do not know the style?  Mutually exclusive?  Are you saying that the thousands of highly trained musicians playing in symphony orchestra's across the globe do not know the style of music they are playing because they have music in front of them?


After asking way too many impertinent questions in this thread and elsewhere I think I finally understand the source of your confusion. What is being loosely termed "the style" does not encompass just the notes and the rhythms and the ornaments. In fact is more than just what you can hear when you listen to the music being played...

The "style" includes how you went about learning the notes, rhythms, ornaments in the first place. Think of "style" in the sense of "lifestyle". The more dedicated (or hard-core if you will) Irish Traditional participants are consciously emulating an entire musical way of learning as well as playing the tunes. They want you to have sat and listened in on other sessions and accumulated tunes in exactly the way that they listened in and accumulated tunes. 

You're reading the right notes from your sheet music but it's like you're trying to get the result without the process. The sheet music is not bad per se rather it is a sign that your participation is inauthentic in terms of a certain social group's shared culture. Some sessions apparently do not welcome just one more person playing the right notes and sounding like the rest of the group sounds. They do welcome newcomers who choose to adopt their share musical lifestyle. By wanting to show up and play from "dots" you are missing what they view as the point of the entire thing.

Classical musicians, by the way, have similar "folkways" so to speak. I had a guitar teacher who spent the early part of his life studying classical guitar. All the way through a college degree in it. He explained some of the same things about ways of practicing certain classical techniques and building up the repertoire in a certain order. To some practicioners of classical guitar pedagogy even if you could play a given song, if you don't use the accepted technique (everything from posture to the type of instrument to the position of your fingers) then you're destroying the beauty of the art. Now not every classical guitarist buys that and in fact my teacher had pretty much rejected it once he left college and began teaching as a career. But it's a cultural belief in certain quarters that how you went about learning and practicing it is at least as important as the final musical result.

P.S. My apology in advance to anyone who feels I'm am totally misrepresenting something I have not experienced directly. It's true that I only know what people tell me but I've tried real hard to figure it out in case I ever need to know what's what in very "trad" context.

----------


## PaulG

> I would put OT more with IT on this, and then add that the "other stuff" can look like "not wanting to learn the tune", when really it is just a different musical culture where the tune is a stepping off point, not a goal. I mean, there are always those who don't want to learn the tune, but even in an improvizational music, knowing the tune is the key to success, and not knowing the tune is frowned upon and shows up quickly.


I agree with you that "even in an improvizational music, knowing the tune is the key to success," but in the case of bluegrass, at least, my experience has been that the ability to play along to songs you don't know at a jam is something which is widely and positively encouraged, so I'm not sure I agree that "not knowing the tune is frowned upon" in that context. I hear people regularly get advised to learn to hear the chord changes, to learn how to recognize what chords the guitar player is holding down so they can follow along, and even to learn how to guess what the next chord coming down the line might be - however one might learn to do that - so my experience has been that it's an ability which is given quite a lot of emphasis and encouragement in bluegrass circles, rather than being frowned upon, which may differ from your experience.

I also agree that, to a large extent, "really it is just a different musical culture", although that being said I do quite regularly come across the idea that playing the same song in the same way is "boring", or somehow displays a lack of musical imagination and integrity because you're "just playing it like someone else did", so there can be other stuff going on as well. I do also sometimes encounter a more general disdain for "just" learning songs, as if to suggest that the "real music" obviously lies in some other direction. I've also had someone try to tell me that learning and memorizing more than about ten songs is well-nigh impossible, although admittedly that's a rather extreme and unrepresentative example.

----------


## JeffD

> along to songs you don't know at a jam is something which is widely and positively encouraged, so I'm not sure I agree that "not knowing the tune is frowned upon" in that context.


I haven't experienced it in that way, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I am not a big BGer, but the jams I have been in, and encouraged as you say, it always seemed by way of learning the tunes, "jump in, you'll learn them soon enough" type of feeling, not an avoidence of learning the tunes. But I know what you mean.




> I also agree that, to a large extent, "really it is just a different musical culture", although that being said I do quite regularly come across the idea that playing the same song in the same way is "boring", or somehow displays a lack of musical imagination and integrity because you're "just playing it like someone else did",... I do also sometimes encounter a more general disdain for "just" learning songs, as if to suggest that the "real music" obviously lies in some other direction. I've also had someone try to tell me that learning and memorizing more than about ten songs is well-nigh impossible, .



Like any two cultures, each side looks over the abyss at the other side and understands to some extent and misunderstands as well. One side says its boring to play the same tune over and over, and the other side says we like the tunes see no need to attempt to improve them. One side values imagination, the other side values expressivity. One side values expressing your self, the other side values expressing the tune.  Each side "knows" what "real" music is, and each side is probably right in what they include, and wrong in what they exclude.

Its all good. Real good.

----------


## zoukboy

> Isn't "understanding the elements of the style, and having a grasp of the rhythmic characteristics" important in every single kind of music?


Oh yes, I think so!




> Why is there an insistance that Irish traditional music is different in this regard?


I wasn't insisting on that, I was only speaking about ITM in particular.




> And why does having music in front of you mean that you do not know the style?  Mutually exclusive?


Let me put it this way, in ITM, if you need the music to play the tunes then you don't know the style.  If you know the style then you don't need the music.




> Are you saying that the thousands of highly trained musicians playing in symphony orchestra's across the globe do not know the style of music they are playing because they have music in front of them?


Not at all. I didn't mention symphony orchestras or classical music at all.  I was only speaking about ITM (though I am sure the same situation exists for other traditional musics. too).




> I guess I'm just trying to combat what I believe to be a myth - that having musical information in front of you (1) is a sign that you lack other musical information, and/or (2) actually prevents you from obtaining additional musical information.


Hmmm... it isn't a myth that there are musical situations in which printed music is not helpful.  Many, many situations in fact, but of course there are situations where it is essential, i.e., Western classical music, Jazz (perhaps).  Trust me, if your goal is to be a fluent Irish trad musician printed music has limited usefulness.

----------


## zoukboy

> Roger, I have ton of respect for you, I really like your recordings and I really enjoyed the workshop I took with you, so please don't take this too negatively, but I have to be honest and say your post comes off as just a tiny bit condescending.


John: I'm sorry if you found my post condescending.  That truly was not my intent.




> Saying in effect, "just sit in the corner and watch how the big people do it" doesn't have a good ring for me.


Well, I didn't say that. I did say that listening is a way to participate.




> I just don't buy the suggestion that anyone who is interested in actually playing has to sit around for years in bars paying way too much for Guiness, waiting for the magic to hit. Be honest, is that what you did? For how many years?


Uh... John... do you really need to tell me to "be honest"?  ;-)

No one said anything about sitting "around for years in bars..."  

But honestly, ;-)   I spent years listening, learning, playing, and sessioning when I could.  And I was frustrated for a long time, years in fact, until some kindly friends who were my elders in the music explained to me how that musical culture works.  I try to share that info in my teaching and in forums like this.  It's not always what folks want to hear but I do my best to pass those teaching on.

Once again, my apologies if I offended you.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> The "style" includes how you went about learning the notes, rhythms, ornaments in the first place. Think of "style" in the sense of "lifestyle". The more dedicated (or hard-core if you will) Irish Traditional participants are consciously emulating an entire musical way of learning as well as playing the tunes. They want you to have sat and listened in on other sessions and accumulated tunes in exactly the way that they listened in and accumulated tunes.


Lifestyle is the keyword to nail it Brent.  :Cool: 

You might also call it a state of mind - you won't be able to play ITM authentically unless you are in that state of mind the music usually expresses. And yes, one way to get in the state of mind is intimate intercourse with the tunes (aka "practising"), and lots of it. 
Again, I quote the Irish proverb: To know beauty, one must live with it. It won't work as a one-night stand (that's what sheet music pretends to deliver), it has to be a marriage; as a newbie in a session, you're a batchelor in a company of married couples. Patience is what it takes, and - courage. Yes, courage. Courage to invest that most precious thing we have in a limited life: time.
You're not supposed to just play the instrument, and the instrument plays the music. On the contrary, the music plays the instrument and the music is you. Only then will it sound right. I think that's what Roger means by "know the style". Any vain pretending is instantly audible as fake.

And that is the point that escapes those musicians who just want to do some diddle-di-dee for a change because it seems to sound nice.

----------


## Paul Kotapish

> RI just don't buy the suggestion that anyone who is interested in actually playing has to sit around for years in bars paying way too much for Guiness, waiting for the magic to hit. Be honest, is that what you did? For how many years?


Hey John, I understand your frustration, but I think the answer to your question my surprise you. 

Let me give you a little perspective from my situation.

I've spent a lot of time over the past four decades listening to and and working at learning ITM. For the first several years it was a pretty lonely process of painstakingly learning tunes from LPs. I don't read very well, but even if I had, _O'Neill's_ was long out of print and yet to be reissued and the many subsequent tune references and "how-to" books had yet to be published. Once I'd scraped together a few tunes and some modest ability to learn, I was able to learn tunes by ear from other players. Pretty much all of my free time went into listening, learning, and practicing. My outlet with other folks was based on inviting folks of roughly my own ability to join me for informal music gatherings at a home or back room at a party. 

Over the years I gained a bit more proficiency on several instruments, and earned at least a modicum of cred in the scene. Through sheer luck I've had the opportunity to play, perform, and even record with some truly great ITM musicians--Kevin Burke, Liz Carrol, Matt Malloy, Jackie Daly, Mick Moloney, Seamus McGuire, Joe Burke, and many others. I've made perhaps a dozen records over the years that feature ITM, played for hundreds of set dances and step dancers, and been--at times--up to my neck in the scene.

All that said, I would never presume to sit down at a serious session and expect to play without being invited by the session leader to open my case and join in. There are a bunch of reasons for this.

First, as was mentioned earlier in the thread, the tradition of music in public places doesn't necessarily imply that the music itself is open to public participation. Sometimes, of course, it's entirely appropriate for everyone to join in. More often though, the proper etiquette is to wait be asked, and then to lead off a set only when given the nod by the leader.

Second, even though I have a reasonable amount of confidence in what I do and in my familiarity with the repertoire, I am all too aware that my playing has a distinct American accent that might not be appropriate to the scene. If I perceive that the folks at the heart of the session are going for a hard-core sound, then I will usually sit back and enjoy that overpriced Guinness and--yep--listen and learn.

Third, sometimes the music just doesn't need another mandolin or guitar or bouzouki. When in doubt, I sit it out.

Is this frustrating? Occasionally. Do I let it bother me? Rarely. 

I learned long ago that for me, working in a band in rehearsal or performance mode provides far more musical satisfaction than hammering a way at a session, particularly one where I'm not contributing much. 

And there are plenty of casual opportunities to play tunes with friends--often great gangs of them. Just not in pub sessions.

And just to be clear, I apply more-or-less the same litmus test at old-time and other sessions, too.

----------


## Paul Kotapish

About sheet music.

There are plenty of world-class fiddlers (and other musicians) who make use of sheet music and who are constantly on the lookout for old references and published tune collections. Some of the most prolific performers and recording artists depend on old tomes to ferret out ancient tunes that have not already been recorded or performed in recent years. 

And many traditional-style tunesmiths use notation to memorialize their new compositions.

But none of them would dream of playing a tune they first discovered in a book in public using sheet music. I think they would all agree that the tune isn't really music until it is in the heart, mind, and memory of the player. (Although I have seen a few fiddlers scribble a line or two of dots on a set list to jog their memories on a new or tricky tune.)

And while western orchestras and chamber ensembles often perform with sheet music, most soloists are expected to perform from memory exclusively, and many modern pedagogues are teaching ear training and ear learning in tandem with sheet music use as a way of building a more rounded musical skill set in their students.

Most non-western classical music is transmitted entirely by ear.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> sometimes the music just doesn't need another mandolin or guitar or bouzouki. When in doubt, I sit it out.
> 
> Is this frustrating? Occasionally. Do I let it bother me? Rarely.


This is a point often overlooked: to some people, the trad. Irish sound is coupled to certain instruments producing a streaming sound (pipes, flute, fiddle, accordion), and where even a banjo would get folks' dander up you just don't stand a chance with a mandolin, however authentic your feel of the music may be. I picture the old 70s/80s Chieftains and how they'd look at me if I'd enter their porcelain shop with my elephant OM. I can tell them that their instruments were just as much stolen from other genres as mine, only earlier in time, but there's no use in discussing taste.

Therefore, to avoid awkward situations like that, you might want to pick sessions that have a banjo - though this might seem paradox to some mandolin players, the banjo player is supporting them as a beacon for friendly acceptance of fringe instruments  :Grin:

----------


## Bren

> I picture the old 70s/80s Chieftains and how they'd look at me if I'd enter their porcelain shop with my elephant OM


If you walked onstage with them, they'd look at you funny for sure .
In a pub session, the best players can be surprisingly accommodating.

----------


## Shelagh Moore

> to some people, the trad. Irish sound is coupled to certain instruments producing a streaming sound (pipes, flute, fiddle, accordion), and where even a banjo would get folks' dander up you just don't stand a chance with a mandolin


I've been playing regularly in Irish sessions for around 35 years and my main instruments are mandolin and tenor banjo. I've never experienced a session like that and banjo and mandolin were common in sessions in Ireland and the UK long before I started. Perhaps it's different in other places?

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Perhaps it's different in other places?


I could show you some points in space-time - very rare, but they do exist. Depends on who turns up and who doesn't. Strange majorities forming out of nowhere at unpredictable moments like flashmobs. Then, the pub session you thought you knew suddenly turns into an encounter of the third kind - they play only tunes you never heard before with ethereal virtuosity and sit out the ones you play in either cold silence or deafening chatter...

----------


## foldedpath

> I've been playing regularly in Irish sessions for around 35 years and my main instruments are mandolin and tenor banjo. I've never experienced a session like that and banjo and mandolin were common in sessions in Ireland and the UK long before I started. Perhaps it's different in other places?


There may be more of a gatekeeper attitude at many sessions in the USA, when it comes to the fretted instruments. We're more likely to be dealing with the -- "Hey you guys know any Grateful Dead songs?" syndrome, on this side of the pond. 
 :Smile:

----------


## danb

> We're more likely to be dealing with the -- "Hey you guys know any Grateful Dead songs?" syndrome


*Dan glances at Paul  :Grin:

----------


## mandolirius

What an incredible thread. The only conclusion I can gather is that, if you try to play traditional Irish music you're bound to annoy/anger someone.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Grateful Dead songs


Funny - only yesterday, a stranger turned up in our session; he was an Asian with a blue cloth around his head (he looked very much like a Samurai), pounding on a large set of bongos and asking "you know Whiskey in the Jar and Wild Rover?"  :Sleepy: 

Luckily, it was so late already that I was preparing to leave anyway.
But I wonder if that is how I appear to the esoteric nirwana players I mentioned before.  :Confused:

----------


## Bertram Henze

> if you try to play traditional Irish music you're bound to annoy/anger someone.


You can achieve the same by just driving your car through town. It's better not to be born in the first place.

----------


## PaulG

> There may be more of a gatekeeper attitude at many sessions in the USA, when it comes to the fretted instruments. We're more likely to be dealing with the -- "Hey you guys know any Grateful Dead songs?" syndrome, on this side of the pond.


The _Barnes Inverse Rule of Geographic Traditionalism_ may also be at work, "which states that the greater the distance between participants in an activity and that activity's country of origin, the less innovation in that activity they will stand for"! :-)

----------


## Clement Barrera-Ng

> Funny - only yesterday, a stranger turned up in our session; he was an Asian with a blue cloth around his head (he looked very much like a Samurai), pounding on a large set of bongos and asking "you know Whiskey in the Jar and Wild Rover?"


Ha Bertram!  So you were at that session too? I meant to come earlier but I had a tough time finding the matching blue headpiece...  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Jill McAuley

> The _Barnes Inverse Rule of Geographic Traditionalism_ may also be at work, "which states that the greater the distance between participants in an activity and that activity's country of origin, the less innovation in that activity they will stand for"! :-)


What's that saying - "more Irish than the Irish..."

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## JeffD

> I've been playing regularly in Irish sessions for around 35 years and my main instruments are mandolin and tenor banjo. I've never experienced a session like that and banjo and mandolin were common in sessions in Ireland and the UK long before I started. Perhaps it's different in other places?


Back in the 80s in Ireland and Scotland I don't remember seeing that many mandolins. There were banjos of of course, and various bouzouki's, Foleys and Sobells and others, but not many, if any mandolin mandolins, and I was usually the only carved top mandolin. Things have changed.

----------


## Shelagh Moore

> Back in the 80s in Ireland and Scotland I don't remember seeing that many mandolins. There were banjos of of course, and various bouzouki's, Foleys and Sobells and others, but not many, if any mandolin mandolins, and I was usually the only carved top mandolin. Things have changed.


I must have been imagining it then.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> The _Barnes Inverse Rule of Geographic Traditionalism_ may also be at work, "which states that the greater the distance between participants in an activity and that activity's country of origin, the less innovation in that activity they will stand for"! :-)


It seems the reason for this is that authenticity is a dream that appears more fragile to those far away from the real thing. They might have a point, too - probably some day Ireland will be made in China.

----------


## Gelsenbury

> What an incredible thread. The only conclusion I can gather is that, if you try to play traditional Irish music you're bound to annoy/anger someone.


Perhaps I've been lucky. I still can't play for toffee, but the session I have found locally have actively encouraged me to bring my instrument, join in, and noodle along until I have learnt the tunes. Following the advice from this forum, I tried to sit out some tunes I just didn't even know. In response, I got the pipe player calling out to me to keep going. 

My teacher has recently invited me to come to another session, where he is one of the senior players. He said, as did the people in the other session, that everybody had begun in the same place as I am now, and that he could always try to start some tunes that he knows I can play. That really is very accommodating. Perhaps it's different on the American continent.

The other way I want to respond to your comment is to ask where there *isn't* a danger of annoying someone. This is a genuine question. I'm not familiar with musical gatherings in the Bluegrass, Old-Time or other traditions. But I can't imagine that there wouldn't be a good degree of humility, adaptability and discipline required of a newbie who joins the group. It's simply the normal process of joining a group and a tradition of music that is older, more established, and more important than any individual player.

----------


## chriss

> But I can't imagine that there wouldn't be a good degree of humility, adaptability and discipline required of a newbie who joins the group. It's simply the normal process of joining a group and a tradition of music that is older, more established, and more important than any individual player.


You know, it was kind of like this when I was a kid and walked up wanting to join a game of baseball, basketball, etc that was already established in the park.

----------


## bobby bill

FoldedPath's posts are instructive.  I guess my point was that having music in front of you does not preclude you from deviating from the written notes - adding ornamentation, altering rhythms. Glenn Gould famously played live concerts with music in front of him.  The music did not tell him how or where to ornament certain notes.  There are numerous elements of his playing (which collectively constitute "style") that cannot be represented by the dots.  (Certainly the dots did not tell him to hum while playing.)

I play old standards from piano sheet music all the time.  I grab the notes I can and add other notes that are not there.  I alter rhythms and dot notes that are not dotted.  The music is in front of me so I can see the melody and get a gist of the harmony.  It is conceivable to me that a person could be completely familiar with a style of music and also have a reminder of where a certainly melody goes.  

So when someone says that if you have music in front of you, you don't know the style, I get my hackles up a little.  It seems that before you make a judgment about someone's music ability (or knowledge), you should hear the music first.

----------


## PaulG

> It seems the reason for this is that authenticity is a dream that appears more fragile to those far away from the real thing. They might have a point, too - probably some day Ireland will be made in China.


Well, I think sometimes care is needed to avoid participation in a living tradition turning into something more resembling a re-enactment society. It also raises questions about what "authentic" means. Other than the tunes, how traditional music is played today is likely materially different from how it was played even one hundred years ago, let alone five hundred years ago. I wasn't there at the time, but I'm given to understand that the modern Irish pub session was invented in a pub in London, England, in the 1940s, and then exported back to Ireland.

If we were able to look at the progression of traditional music over the last few hundred years, I think it's very likely that we'd see all kinds of innovations during that time, so "authenticity" is probably a far more ethereal concept than many people think. That being so, there's still something to be said for folks wanting to play their music _right now_ in the way they want to play it, in the same way that a modern rock band would probably be annoyed if you turned up wanting to play along with your flute and accordion.

----------


## Bren

The sheet music thing is a bit of a side issue.

It doesn't matter how quickly you can read music -session sets move along pretty smartly and are usually conjured up on the spot, and you're not going to be able to identify the next tune, look it up, open the page and play along before they move on. 

Assuming you actually have some space to rest your music books or laptop on, (and that the sheet music actually exists somewhere). Some lively sessions, there's barely enough room for the fiddlers' elbows.

really, most regular pub sessions are not that forbidding. You will get groups of very good players seeking each other out at festivals etc and there mightn't be much room for beginners and intermediate players, but even at pubs where top players are playing to a high standard, there'll be some simpler sets or breaks when we mortals can get something going.

----------


## JeffD

> I must have been imagining it then.



 :Smile: 

I don't doubt you, I am just saying it wasn't my experience so much, where I was playing anyway. I was much more likely to bump into a carved top mandolin at a session here in the States.

----------


## zoukboy

> So when someone says that if you have music in front of you, you don't know the style, I get my hackles up a little.  It seems that before you make a judgment about someone's music ability (or knowledge), you should hear the music first.


Don't know if you are referring to my posts or not, Bobby, but what I wrote was: 

          "Let me put it this way, in ITM, if you need the music to play the tunes then
           you don't know the style. If you know the style then you don't need the music."

I was speaking only about ITM, and this thread is about Irish trad sessions.  The examples you give don't apply to that.  The important word here is "need."  If one doesn't have any tunes memorized and must have the printed music to play the notes then yes, one does not know the style.  

One learns ITM style by learning tunes--memorizing and then playing, for years--not by reading the notes out of a book.  In this sense it is exactly like learning a foreign language.  Reading music in a session is analogous to owning a phrase book and trying to be understood in a conversation--it's not the same thing as being fluent in the language.

----------


## JeffD

> If we were able to look at the progression of traditional music over the last few hundred years, I think it's very likely that we'd see all kinds of innovations during that time, so "authenticity" is probably a far more ethereal concept than many people think.


Certainly you are correct, but the extent and importance of the "innovations" is probably a matter of debate. I hear the debate rage between northern old time (contra dance etc.  tunes) and southern old time, where the S.O.T. claim their music is as old as the hills and hollers, and the N.O.T. say their music is the direct lineal descendent from Europe while the S.O.T. is recreated off of early recordings, and back and forth and up and down and who cares. The only thing they can agree on is that they are not BG.   :Laughing:  

It seems to me that debating the authenticity of a tradition can sure cut into your pickin time  :Smile: 





> That being so, there's still something to be said for folks wanting to play their music _right now_ in the way they want to play it, in the same way that a modern rock band would probably be annoyed if you turned up wanting to play along with your flute and accordion.


I think this is the key, really.

I would think that in musically rich areas, where there are lots of jams and sessions of various shapes and sizes and degrees of orthodoxy, that folks would get less hung up on things, and would just move on to a group more to their liking. Whereas in areas where you have to drive an hour and a half to get to the only group of musicians not playing Lynyrd Skynyrd, it probably stings more when you are not feeling as welcome as you would like.


But the reality is that most (if not all) musicians are human beings, and drawing boundaries, identifying "us" as not "them", sowing discord, thats what we humans do. Searching for meaning, significance, recognition, seeking not much more than hugs and hot coffee, ... this is also what we do. And I shouldn't be surprized when we do it in music as in every other human endeavor.

So look, I will give you a hug, and a good hot cup of coffee, if you will leave your double belled euphonium home. Deal?

----------


## Bertram Henze

> ... a living tradition turning into something more resembling a re-enactment society. It also raises questions about what "authentic" means...
> 
> ... so "authenticity" is probably a far more ethereal concept than many people think.


I agree that authenticity is an ethereal thing - it often boils down to the "country of origin" being not a place on earth at all. But ethereal does not mean "less real". It is something we probably have felt in a certain situation, tagged as being "Irish", and want to feel again. And we want to believe in it's reality to the extent that it is there to come back to and not being modified by strangers. This also means that authenticity is a completely personal perception, and people in a given session will feel better if their perceptions match.




> So look, I will give you a hug, and a good hot cup of coffee, if you will leave your double belled euphonium home. Deal?


 :Laughing:  personally, I'd buy a euphonium if it saves me from being tortured with hugs and coffee...

Alternative Deal: I'll bring my kazoo unless you treat me with a pint.  :Cool:

----------


## chasgrav

Jill said:  

If I was going to a session I'd never been to before I wouldn't even bring an instrument - I'd bring a recording device and ask if it was ok to record the tunes that were unfamiliar to me, then afterwards I'd go home and learn the tunes. Pretty straightforward really."



Spot on, Jill.  Kudos.

----------


## Paul Cowham

I agree that this is a very polite way of approaching a new session, and on occasion I have sat in on a session with no instrument. That said, my approach now tends to be that it is better to bring an instrument to a session (or other event) and not play it than not bring it and wish you had...

I must say that this thread is very interesting with a wide range of experiences. Ultimately though, the quality of music at sessions is variable and a big reason for attending is to enjoy yourselves and have some craic. This can be done with still having respect for the music.

I would say that session ettiquette boils down to basic good manners and common sense, and treating it and the musicians with respect.

As for tradition, well traditions keep on evolving. If they didn't there would be no mandolins in sessions anyway. Being a traditional musician it seems to me is about having knowledge and respect for what has gone before but not being averse to innovation and development, it does annoy me a little when people are over protective of traditions and what is permitted or not. I'm interested in the The Barnes Inverse Rule of Geographic Traditionalism mentioned above which could explain some attitudes.

----------


## John McGann

> Glenn Gould famously played live concerts with music in front of him.


There is a big difference between the density of a Schoenberg or Hindemith polyphonic piano composition and the simplicity of an AABB form fiddle tune.

Musical memory is part of the package of being a well rounded player, IMHO.

----------


## allenhopkins

1.  I may seriously reconsider, before posting any more "cute" videos about letting clueless bodhran "newbies" into seisuns to sing _The Unicorn._  Eight pages?  Wow!

2.  I do see parallels between the current discussion, and some that have been held in the Bluegrass forum.  In both cases there is a core of orthodoxy, where some posters believe that there's a "right way" to play a particular music style -- one that respects that style's roots, whether in Ireland or Appalachia --  and that those with a developing interest in that style, but not much experience, should be careful to approach participation in a manner that conforms to that "right way."

Now, this is surely a defensible argument, and the ditzy "musician" who wants to massacre her bodhran and sing _The Unicorn_ is surely the extreme case of the unwanted seisun participant.  (Which is why the video's funny, right?)  But I only caution, that taking the "orthodox" approach to an extreme, is a sure-fire way to discourage people, not only from participating, but even from appreciating, Celtic traditional music, bluegrass, jazz, blues, or any other genre.  Insisting that a musician *can't* do this, and *must* do that, or he/she better take that mandolin and skedaddle outa here, is going to limit the field of participants.  There will always be acolytes willing to serve a prolonged apprenticeship at the "back tables" of a seisun, being careful not to make an offensive misstep, but honestly, others will just decide they don't want to spend the time or effort.

And some may be OK with that: better to have a few _really dedicated and knowledgeable_ musicians, than a larger group, some of whom are not as skilled, experienced, committed, or, well, "orthodox."  But if there is some desire to "spread the gospel" to a larger group, increase the genre's visibility and popularity, welcome new musicians into the fold, develop a broad base of support and acceptance, orthodoxy may have to be mitigated with a welcoming spirit and a willingness to accept new participants coming from other genres and with different skills and experiences.

Seisuns around here are pretty open and welcoming, often making explicit provision for new participants to learn the ropes.  Probably some of the more experienced and dedicated (not including myself in that group) have been frustrated from time to time by "newbie" mistakes or misdirection.  Still, I'd vote for the more open approach over the more "orthodox."

----------


## chasgrav

> Still, I'd vote for the more open approach over the more "orthodox."


Best of all is to have both kinds in your town, as I do.  I consider them both treasures.

----------


## foldedpath

> 1.  I may seriously reconsider, before posting any more "cute" videos about letting clueless bodhran "newbies" into seisuns to sing _The Unicorn._  Eight pages?  Wow!


That's nothing.  :Smile:  Check out this 18-page thread from Chiff & Fipple from last September, on the exact same topic. You'll recognize similar themes; it was started by someone who wanted to know why Irish sessions weren't as warm/fuzzy and accepting as OldTime jams:

http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/vie...hp?f=8&t=77709




> But I only caution, that taking the "orthodox" approach to an extreme, is a sure-fire way to discourage people, not only from participating, but even from appreciating, Celtic traditional music, bluegrass, jazz, blues, or any other genre.  Insisting that a musician *can't* do this, and *must* do that, or he/she better take that mandolin and skedaddle outa here, is going to limit the field of participants.  There will always be acolytes willing to serve a prolonged apprenticeship at the "back tables" of a seisun, being careful not to make an offensive misstep, but honestly, others will just decide they don't want to spend the time or effort.
> 
> And some may be OK with that: better to have a few _really dedicated and knowledgeable_ musicians, than a larger group, some of whom are not as skilled, experienced, committed, or, well, "orthodox."


Allen, that's exactly the point, and the reason some sessions are the way they are. No session survives _as an Irish session_ by being completely open and accepting to every single person who walks through the door and wants to "join the fun." Unspoken rules and conditions are just the parameters that define how the established group wants to play, and to have _their_ fun. 

_"Insisting that a musician can't do this, and must do that, or he/she better take that mandolin and skedaddle outa here"_, is really no different from the members of a jazz session telling a second saxophone player _"No, please, don't try to play your sax solo at the same time as the other sax player's solo!"_ If a jazz session can have idiomatic traditions like that, then why can't an Irish session have its own idiomatic traditions, that a newcomer is expected to learn?

Sessions are generally very welcoming to newcomers (at least around here), but they're not always on a mission to "spread the gospel" and expand the group beyond those with a fairly deep interest in the music. Some sessions may operate that way (and in fact, my own little intermediate session is always on the lookout for melody players), but not all are on that particular mission. For many, it's just a casual gathering of friends playing music they all like to play together, over a few beers.

One other thing (and I've mentioned this before, I think): the fact that many Irish sessions take place in pubs, means that there may be certain understandings between the session hosts and the pub owner concerning type of music being played, whether it's a beginner session where tunes are learned in fits and starts (which may not be enjoyable as "background music" for the bar patrons), and last but not least, who gets free drinks and/or meals in the group. Some of what's seen as "dogma" in pub sessions, may have at least something to do with the local arrangements with the venue. Things can be much more loose at a kitchen session, or a parking lot pickin' jam.

----------


## bobby bill

> Musical memory is part of the package of being a well rounded player, IMHO.


I would not argue otherwise.  I'm not even arguing that people should be permitted to use music at a traditional Irish session.  I simply had a problem with the statement that if you need some visual cues (like Glenn Gould) then you do not know the style.  To me, a musical style is something that you can HEAR.  When you listen to a recording of Glenn Gould, can you hear whether or not he has the music in front of him?  People can, and do, argue whether Glenn Gould played in the style of Bach (I would argue that he knew the style and chose to play differently).  But certainly all of these arguments are based on what is being HEARD, not on whether he has music in front of him.

I suppose I should have known better because the statement that first got me involved in this thread was the assertion that the part you are hearing is the least important component of Irish traditional music.  When I first read that, I thought it was a joke, kind of along the lines of Mark Twain's statement that Wagner is a lot better than he sounds.  But when I realized that it was serious it seemed like a statement that was more aimed at intimidating rather than enlightening the uninitiated.  I mean, what's a poor wannabe trad player supposed to do if he can't even HEAR the most important components.  (I know, I know, sit at the knee of an elder and soak it up by osmosis.)

At any rate, I apologize for belaboring these very minute points.  And I have learned quite a bit from this thread, so thanks.

----------


## zoukboy

> I suppose I should have known better because the statement that first got me involved in this thread was the assertion that the part you are hearing is the least important component of Irish traditional music.



I think I missed that one, Bobby.  Who made that assertion?

----------


## PaulG

> As for tradition, well traditions keep on evolving. If they didn't there would be no mandolins in sessions anyway.


Or, indeed, any instrument. For any instrument, there must have been a time when someone played it in that style of music for the first time, unless some of the instruments pre-date the style. For many of the "traditional", or at least common, instruments:

 - the guitar, bouzouki (a Greek instrument), tenor banjo (an American instrument), and possibly the bodhran, all seem to have entered ITM in the 20th century.
 - the tin whistle was invented in the 19th century
 - the modern form of the uilleann pipes didn't arise until the end of the 19th century
 - the harp is legitimately old, but nobody plays it in ITM anymore.
 - there are some references to something sounding like a fiddle dating back to the 8th century, but the modern violin/fiddle didn't originate until 16th century Italy, and will have taken a while to work itself into Irish music after that.

so depending on whether you think a "long time" in history means going back to the Declaration of Independence, or back to the building of Stonehenge, practically all the instruments used now are relatively recent. None of this really _matters_, of course, but sometimes it seems as if some people are giving the impression that the music, _as they play it today_, is some pristine preservation of a tradition which has been lovingly passed down unchanged from raven-haired grandmother to delicate granddaughter since the time of the druids, which I think is obviously not the case. 




> Being a traditional musician it seems to me is about having knowledge and respect for what has gone before but not being averse to innovation and development, it does annoy me a little when people are over protective of traditions and what is permitted or not. I'm interested in the The Barnes Inverse Rule of Geographic Traditionalism mentioned above which could explain some attitudes.


At best, trying to preserve a tradition in a particular way is not really preserving the tradition itself as a whole, but preserving the tradition _as it was at a specific point in time_, which in this case, in all likelihood, is most appropriately located somewhere around the 1960s. Trying to fossilize and endlessly re-enact a very specific way of doing things never seems like a great idea to me, but starts to look positively bizarre if that way of doing things was never really all that "traditional" in the first place.

I have no evidence for this, but I strongly suspect that if you were able to go back a few hundred years, you'd find that the musicians at the time weren't remotely concerned with "preserving tradition", if for no other reason than they had no way of knowing how things were done way back when, just like we have no way of knowing now - they were likely just playing music that they liked to play at the time. If they heard something new and interesting, they probably wanted to emulate it, like folks do today. Every generation probably had their own rock and roll moments where they wanted to move away from how the old guys played it, and then go on to complain about the "darned kids today" when they got old themselves. Having new tunes and new instruments appear was probably quite exciting, and taken up with relish - if it wasn't, where do all the tunes and instruments we have today come from? Presumably the current repertoire didn't just fall from the sky in its present form during pre-Roman times. 

I think this whole idea of cultural preservation is a relatively modern reaction to the threat of greatly increased communication watering down regional differences (although even back in the day, there was an awful lot of cross-border influence - the Celts as a people themselves migrated all the way from Central Europe - so the idea that any "tradition" represents some kind of pure and untainted "Irishness" is highly suspect). So even if the music were "traditional", the attitude of trying to fossilize it and preserving one way of playing it in stone forever is highly unlikely to be. 

Of course, like I've said, none of this comes close to meaning that there's anything wrong with wanting to play things in a particular way today. Just because you _could_ have electric guitars in a symphony orchestra, that doesn't mean most folks would enjoy listening to it, and there's no need to break from convention today just for the sake of doing so. I really think there is a lot to be said for people wanting their music to sound a particular way, and not wanting to be so open to anyone who wants to join in that they lose that. Regardless of how "traditional" it actually is or is not, "Irish Traditional Music" as a style that's played _today_ is perfectly worthy in its own right. But I think understanding the difference between "we play it this way because this is how we like it to sound today" and "we play it this way because we labour under the mistaken belief that we're the sole remaining guardians of an ancient and pristine tradition which very closely resembled what we do today, and we mean to carry the torch and preserve that tradition and to consider any slight deviation from the way we do it to be utter sacrilege" is important. Wistful, dewy-eyed, pining romanticism for all things imagined to be "Celtic" is fine in its place, but it's probably a good thing not to confuse romanticism with claims to actual historical fact and "authenticity", the latter necessarily being almost entirely wild speculation as far as folk music is concerned.

----------


## michaelpthompson

Most traditional sessions I've seen are very welcoming to beginners, newbies, and even the clueless. And they go to great lengths to educate them on effective ways of interacting with the traditional music. But the welcome may wear thin if the newbie never really learns the music, tries to tell everybody how it should be done, insists on continuing to violate their traditions, or persists in playing music outside the tradition or in a style not compatible with the tradition.

As foldedpath pointed out in with customary cogency, a session insisting that a musician can't do this, and must do that, is certainly no worse than a musician insisting that a session to which he does not belong can't do this, and must do that.

----------


## DougC

I think regional styles are similar in language as they are in music. Only a musicologist or linguist really sets up an orderly definition for study. For example, I find that I start to talk like North Carolina people when I'm hanging out with them. (I'm from Minnesota via Michigan). No one really corrects my speech as I 'mispronounce' words. But I have to notice the difference before I even try to say the word or phrase a different way. 
Now my wife is learning a language (and teaching me a few words), and I've been working on Irish fiddle (and mandolin) and I see the comparison to language all the time. Tradition, orthodoxy, authentic, just look at these terms in the context of language. I want to 'speak' well with my Irish fiddling / mandolin and I do notice the accents and styles - finally.

----------


## Paul Kotapish

Interesting post, PaulG, and I agree with much of it.

You might be off on your dismissal of the harp as a current "trad" instrument--although it's a pretty funny line. On the left coast, anyway, there are scads of accomplished harpists who can play danceable jigs, reels, and hornpipes as well as the expected O'Carolan repertoire, and some of them even play at pub seisúns. 

As you noted, acknowledging that a living tradition is fluid and mutable doesn't invalidate the interests of musicians who are trying to play in a particular style or format. The entire world of bluegrass is based on loads of serious musicians doing their best to emulate and preserve Bill Monroe's highly evolved and very personal take on old-time ("traditional") string band music. Whether such preservation is nobly Quixotic or fustily romantic depends on one's taste and perspective, I suppose.

I, for one, am happy that someone is out there trying to keep the old fires burning. 

And I'd argue further that the most interesting aspect of traditional music is in the direct transmission--from elder to tyro--of the elder's best recollection of the way that he or she in turn received that music from their elders, and that there is inherent value in hewing closely to those received traditions. Of course music and the tradition will change over time--faulty memory, restless intellect, and varing degrees of skill will all impact the music over time, as will the introduction of new instruments and the gradual decline in popularity of older ones. (A piper I play with recently acquired a fully digital--and incredibly realistic sounding--uillean pipe chanter and drones, and he can now play in keys that were unimaginable on the "analog" sets.)

But all the hubbub about whether the pub sessions are accurately traditional or not is ultimately beside the point. It's really a matter of common courtesy and respect for what the session leaders are trying to foster, however arcane, confusing, or exclusive the expectations for participation seem to be.

----------


## Jim Nollman

Something barely touched on in this terrific discussion so far, is each individual player's judgement regarding varying skill levels. My point may be construed as undiplomatic, even  to bring it up, because  I can easily imagine that some of the folks who have felt rebuffed at a session (sic) may have been incapable of keeping up with some very bouncy traditional groove that almost never occurs in a mere jam. And the newcomer wasn't even aware that their playing wrecked the groove, because while they were playing, the groove never occured. But let's be honest about it, playing a hornpipe or a slip jig _without_ its incredible bounce, will quickly bring  down the players who know exactly how high they feel when they get into the proper groove — even if the guilty party knows all the notes. It's not about the notes. Not precisely about the notes.

I say this,  because I'm not much of a jam player, myself, with the notable exception of overtly social situations. My problem with the musical institution of jams is two fold. Firstly, too many players involved can quickly destroy the all important frequency niches that each instrument fills. That's why actual bands usually have only one guitar or one bass or one mandolin.  Jams also permit only a very limited expression of dynamics, because all the players are usually playing all the notes all the time. The music turns into mud. The session has solved this problem by insisting on unison playing. As a non-session player, I perceive unison playing as a rather exotic form of dynamics, but one that perfectly fits the social situation of the session. With everybody playing the same notes, if everyone also feels the bounce, the tune always gets heard. Let me say it again. I do understand the social value of jams. But I far prefer to play music that offers me some chance of soaring.

Second, when (for example)  3 great players and one so-so player are jamming, often, the music gets stuck at the worst players level of competence. As i have already said, that's perfectly OK when the jam is primarily social. But when its at something like a session, it's easy to imagine that the players who deeply know the music, took lots of time to get  it to that level. And they did it because they wanted  to learn how to play the music well enough to be able to forget it, and just play without thinking about what note came next. Charlie Parker said that in describing jazz, but it applies to any music. Only after they got there,  were they able  to get into the groove that was specific to that tune. 

The groove is the highest expression of a lot of music, from African to Jazz to Celtic.  Everyone who takes the time to learn to play well enough to get there, feels it, and feels good because of it. I'll repeat myself, and say again that the problem with newcomers is often more about the groove than the notes. Whether its a band, or a session, or any event, its about devoted musicians coming together to play music together to get beyond their mundane selves. So, when someone new comes in who doesn't even want to take the time to learn (or hear) some unfamiliar groove, it destroys what the music is really about.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I think this whole idea of cultural preservation is a relatively modern reaction to the threat of greatly increased communication watering down regional differences


That's a very strong pillar of folk music in general: preserving what we perceive as spiritual "home" (even if it's an acquired home).
Douglas Adams put it in a priceless way I recite here:




> _Time travel is increasingly regarded as a menace. History is being polluted.
> 
> The Encyclopedia Galactica has much to say on the theory and practice of time travel, most of which is incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't spent at least four lifetimes studying advanced hypermathematics, and since it was impossible to do this before time travel was invented, there is a certain amount of confusion as to how the idea was arrived at in the first place. One rationalization of this problem states that time travel was, by its very nature, discovered simultaneously at all periods of history, but this is clearly bunk.
> 
> The trouble is that a lot of history is now quite clearly bunk as well.
> 
> Here is an example. It may not seem to be an important one to some people, but to others it is crucial. It is certainly significant in that it was the single event which caused the Campaign for Real Time to be set up in the first place (or is it last? It depends which way round you see history as happening, and this too is now an increasingly vexed question).
> 
> There is, or was, a poet. His name was Lallafa, and he wrote what are widely regarded throughout the Galaxy as being the finest poems in existence, the Songs of the Long Land.
> ...

----------


## Clement Barrera-Ng

> The groove is the highest expression of a lot of music, from African to Jazz to Celtic.  Everyone who takes the time to learn to play well enough to get there, feels it, and feels good because of it. I'll repeat myself, and say again that the problem with newcomers is often more about the groove than the notes. Whether its a band, or a session, or any event, its about devoted musicians coming together to play music together to get beyond their mundane selves. So, when someone new comes in who doesn't even want to take the time to learn (or hear) some unfamiliar groove, it destroys what the music is really about.


I get what you are saying and to some degree I can even agree with it. But it does raise the question though: If there is such a premium being placed on the groove, and there is such a concern that newcomers or mediocre player can easily wreck it, then why even attempt to have a session at a public place at all? Why not invite a few of your musical friends to your house and play away?  For all the sessions I have been in, the number one 'wrecker of groove' is not a newcomer or someone who doesn't know the music tradition: But rather - the loud TV in the background, the rambunctious activities in the foreground, or a drunk patron coming up asking if the players would take requests, and so on and so forth. 

I am not sure if your post is meant to be a reminder for potential session goers to learn the groove before heading to a local session.  I am concerned that if that's the message being sent to session attendees - that it's not enough you know all the notes and can play at session speed without the use of sheet music - then pretty much no one can join in.  Perhaps the session leaders may turn the session into a performance instead, and save everyone some headache.  

There is no question that Irish sessions have a higher barrier to entry than any other music 'jams' found in Bluegrass and Old Time music. But I think that with the proper preparation, common sense, and most of all respect and courtesy to other players, one can go a long way in taking part in sessions with the worry of being evicted.  Musicians are some of the friendliest and coolest people I have met, and it really does take a lot for them to tell you to bugger off.

----------


## PaulG

> That's a very strong pillar of folk music in general: preserving what we perceive as spiritual "home" (even if it's an acquired home).


This is probably starting to veer well off-topic from the original post, but it's an interesting discussion point (to me, at least) so I'll risk it.

What you say here may well be true, sometimes, but it's worth remembering that this can sometimes come across as being quite offensive to those folks actually in that "spiritual home". What is often being "preserved" is not actually the "home" itself, but an artificially idealized and romanticized image of that home that never really existed, the kind of image that reduces Ireland to nothing but Guinness, harps, and leprechauns, when many Irish folks are really concerned with paying their mortgages and feeding their families right now, like everyone else.

This idea of "Celtic" things seems particularly prone to this view. Having been born and raised for the first 25 or so years of my life in a Celtic country, there are occasions where this kind of thing becomes positively annoying, however well-meaning the culprits might be. It's often most evident in the language - there are many parts of the country where Welsh, for instance, is a living, everyday working language, and it grates sometimes when people smile and obviously think it's quite cute to hear it spoken out loud, or just want to practice asking the way to the castle, because of some romantic notion that the language is in some way "spiritual" or "ancient". This can be compared to the actual activities of the Welsh Language Board, which is far less concerned with writing poems and putting on Renaissance-faire type performances for tourists than it is with making sure that road signs and everyday government forms are written in Welsh as well as English. It can come across as wanting to reduce the culture to something resembling a cutesy museum piece, something that folks can just view as endearingly neat, charming and rustic, a way to get their "spiritual fix" before going back to the office and the real world on Monday morning. It can come across as a bit disrespectful to the actual culture itself.

Vaguely similar complaints were raised during the British folk music "revival" of the 1960s, and even about the earlier "revival" at the turn of the century. Comments from some quarters suggested that nothing was really being "revived" at all, and that what was actually happening was that a wholly new type of "folk" music had been invented as a primarily middle-class pursuit, where people could indulge in their fantasies of fair maidens and butchers' lads, real ale, and an imaginary golden agricultural age during the evenings and weekends, and which had very little relevance to any real folk culture, or to any real people who took part in such a culture, and actually served to downplay those things.

I'm not necessarily saying that any of these complaints are valid, or that people shouldn't do what you describe, but I think it's worth pointing out that the desire to "preserve what we perceive as spiritual 'home'" may not always be shared or even particularly well-received by the people actually in that "home", especially if they "perceive" things in a very different way. There may be direct correlations to music, where actual participants in a living tradition are more interested in making good music, performing, and innovating than they are in "preserving" some idealized form of it. Paul Kotapish mentioned Bluegrass, which may be a good example. Although Bill Monroe invented it, Earl Scruggs went a long way towards defining the sound and form in which it's usually heard, but you only have to look at some of his unconventional forays during the 1970s and 1980s to see how little interest he had in preserving an endless 1947. But, to be honest, it does rankle with me a little when I hear suggestions that "preservation of tradition" is as or more important than focusing on the actual living music, particularly if the provenance of those "traditions" is suspect to begin with. As ever, others are naturally entitled to a different view, perhaps I'm just unreasonably grumpy.

Anyway, back to your regular programming...  :-)

----------


## Jim Nollman

Others here can speak more authoritatively about the cultural "rules" of a session than me. I'm speaking more generally about the incredible power that any groove music unleashes for the players who have the chops to get there. At most, I'm simply trying to shape that general experience to this specific discussion. I do have experience performing contra dances, (and jazz...rock...blues...and even primal music with whales before that) so I know personally the uncanny power that a properly syncopated hornpipe, (for just one example) exerts over the dancers whereas the same tune played in straight 4's  sounds just "good enough for a contra dance". 

 I suspect that one of the major gripes in this thread might be healed by everybody agreeing that session music in  an Irish pub is more accurately described as a performance-without-a-stage rather than as a mean-spirited jam where players exhibit some antisocial tic of acting nasty and elitist towards newcomers. Some statements suggest that rebukes arise mostly because some jam-loving newcomer interprets the session as the Irish version of a jam,  when it is nothing of the kind.

----------


## JeffD

> I suspect that one of the major gripes in this thread might be healed by everybody agreeing that session music in  an Irish pub is more accurately described as a performance-without-a-stage...  Some statements suggest that rebukes arise mostly because some jam-loving newcomer interprets the session as the Irish version of a jam,  when it is nothing of the kind.


I would disagree with that, really. Every jam, of every kind of music, has its own conventions and traditions, and even when well versed in the genre and even when one knows all the tunes, one needs to treat the first time in a new group with care.

I would not want to give the impression that traditional Irish sessions require more experience or paying attention than others, as your analogy would imply, because I do not believe its true. Or that other kinds of jams and sessions are any less persnickety. It is always important to listen first, to know what you are getting into, to know how capable you are going to be expected to be.

I would hate on the one hand to give IT a bad reputation, or to give the impression than BG or OT has no norms which the uninitiated need worry about.

Its real common sense and I am sometimes in awe at how hard we make it. On what planet can you join a group of people doing something and be made to feel welcome, without taking the time to see what they are doing, how they are doing it, and assessing whether you can do it that way or not, and how tolerant the group may be of your level of competance.

Seems to me the majority of the skills involved here are not musical skills, they are human skills.

----------


## Clement Barrera-Ng

> Seems to me the majority of the skills involved here are not musical skills, they are human skills.


I can't agree with that more. very good point.

----------


## michaelpthompson

> I suspect that one of the major gripes in this thread might be healed by everybody agreeing that session music in  an Irish pub is more accurately described as a performance-without-a-stage rather than as a mean-spirited jam where players exhibit some antisocial tic of acting nasty and elitist towards newcomers. Some statements suggest that rebukes arise mostly because some jam-loving newcomer interprets the session as the Irish version of a jam,  when it is nothing of the kind.


No to the first, yes to the second. While there's certainly a performance aspect in a session, at its heart, it's music played for the enjoyment of music. Many session players would be (and are) just as happy playing in a kitchen with a few friends. Otheres do like the aspect of showing off or sharing with others, but public performance is not really at the essence of a session. In fact, some people feel that making it too performance oriented tends to ruin the whole experience.

----------


## JeffD

I was recently invited to an Irish session way out of town, of the more orthodox variety. I was invited by one of the session "leaders", because he heard me playing at one of my regular local jams.

Even being invited to the group, and being introduced around, and knowing most of the tunes they do, I started by listening, sitting out tunes I didn't know, and even some I knew well, scoping out the way the energy went, the way the sets were organized, how new tunes were started, how they were played, and how folks interacted, etc., etc. Probably ten other subtle things I was unconsciously scoping out before I participated in full. I ended up having a roaring good time, and the next time I go it will be easier to get started.

----------


## JeffD

> In fact, some people feel that making it too performance oriented tends to ruin the whole experience.


Me, thats me.

That aspect of any session or jam, how much of a performance and how much of a tune sharing or playing for each other, that is yet another aspect one has to guage when playing for the first time with new people.

----------


## bobby bill

> I think I missed that one, Bobby. Who made that assertion?


At post 47 you stated:




> Because the part you are hearing, the notes, is not the most important component of that music. Obviously you are not hearing what *is* important. Nothing wrong with that, but trumpeting your own ignorance on this public forum might be something you'd want to think twice about.


I will concede that you did not say that the "part you are hearing" was the least important component, but simply was not the most important component.  And it has also been suggested that your comment was more about what you believed the ignorance trumpeter was hearing rather than about Irish traditional music in general.  And I can live with that explanation (or any other you care to provide) but that is not the way it hit me when I first read it.

----------


## DougC

> I went to play at an Irish session a few times. ...  They also told me I could not be creative. ... I could play the mandolin just as well as the leader but he was very rude as was his helper.  Nick


This kind of stood out as I was reading.  :Coffee:

----------


## foldedpath

> What you say here may well be true, sometimes, but it's worth remembering that this can sometimes come across as being quite offensive to those folks actually in that "spiritual home". What is often being "preserved" is not actually the "home" itself, but an artificially idealized and romanticized image of that home that never really existed, the kind of image that reduces Ireland to nothing but Guinness, harps, and leprechauns, when many Irish folks are really concerned with paying their mortgages and feeding their families right now, like everyone else.


Speaking as someone in the USA who participates in the session scene, I don't think any of this Plastic Paddy stuff applies to sessions I've attended over here. Everyone I know who plays in sessions has only one interest, and that's just getting together to play the tunes. There's no way to "romanticize" the act of playing a set of reels. You can either play them up to reasonable dance tempo, with drive and lift, or you can't. 

We may look back to the home countries for inspiration from individual master _musicians_ -- studying recordings and taking workshops and so on. But that's not romanticism, any more than it would be for a Bluegrasser to study Monroe. It's just how you learn to play the music.

This isn't to say that there may not be some places where people get into Irish music for reasons more related to genealogy or some kind of new-age Celtic vibe. I just haven't seen it around here where I live.

----------


## PaulG

> This isn't to say that there may not be some places where people get into Irish music for reasons more related to genealogy or some kind of new-age Celtic vibe. I just haven't seen it around here where I live.


I can't say I've encountered it from anyone who's seriously interested in the music, either, which was kind of my point. The "tradition" as it is _today_ is indeed all about "getting together to play the tunes" as you put it, as it should be, in my view, because as far as I can see, that's what it's _always_ been about, as opposed to honouring the druids or some weird stuff like that. It just sets my teeth on edge a tiny amount when people imagine that what they're really doing is "preserving what we perceive as spiritual 'home'" or some such, to borrow Bertram's phrase, by "playing a set of reels," or playing any other folk music, for that matter. Even though I've never encountered it personally, we do hear from time to time about all this "mandolins aren't traditional enough" stuff, for instance, so you have to wonder what's behind that.

But no need to mind me, I'm just overly sensitive to it - I'm an analytical type, and all that "we want to believe in it's reality ... authenticity is a completely personal perception" stuff is just like fingernails on a chalkboard to me, I'm not trying to pass judgment!

----------


## DougC

Ireland has a bit more involvement in promoting the music than we have. There are organizations, university music study and competitions that are very involved in teaching the 'right' way to play the music. Can you blame them? (I wish our government gave a rip about music.) Orthodoxy is easy to poke fun at, or jibe, but I really appreciate their dedication and I learn a heck of a lot from these sources.  At least we have a few music camps running on shoe-string budgets...

----------


## shiloh

Hi all,
One of the initial posts to this thread (in May) by Nick discussed his experience with "rudeness" in a session. Not sure I'm ready to jump into the mire  :Wink: , but I was at that event. To sort of clarify it a bit, it was not actually a sesiun, but advertised as a "_teaching_, _slow_ Irish sesiun." When one potential student showed up at the very first 'sesiun' with a music stand (the location of this event was at a music store, known for being an excellent music school as well) she was just dutifully doing what she thought was 'expected.' (She also plays in our local Mandolin Orchestra so this seemed like the 'proper' thing to do.) Unfortunately, not only was she told she couldn't use any music, I feel she was belittled in the process  - just the way she was told really came across quite demeaning to all of us and, well, rude. The rest of the night involved the 'leaders' saying "okay, now you play."  One did not have the option to pass, or even ask to hear the tune a second time. You 'had' to play or you were scorned. Publically. Most of us had never heard the tune before, knew nothing about lift or groove - we just knew we loved the Irish music and this would be a wonderful opportunity to dive in, in a 'safe' (ie: welcoming, slow, beginning) environment. 
We were all wrong. Need I say, this "slow sesiun" with the 'teachers' did not last long at all. Perhaps this sheds a little more light on why Nick was pretty put off by the 'seisun.' He really is a great mandolin player and really does listen, is always helping people learn, and "plays well with others."  :Grin: 
To end on a positive note, many of the same folks from that 'class' (used loosely) are now sitting, listening, and absorbing in our local seisiuns and loving it. Some are playing at tempo (and very well) -others, like myself, are still listening and learning (and dare I say a little gun-shy still to try and assimilate). No one appreciates being belittled - especially when they are sweet and just trying to be a good 'student' in the only way they know how. 
May the music continue to breathe, and live on!

----------


## Bertram Henze

> it's worth remembering that this can sometimes come across as being quite offensive to those folks actually in that "spiritual home". What is often being "preserved" is not actually the "home" itself, but an artificially idealized and romanticized image of that home that never really existed, the kind of image that reduces Ireland to nothing but Guinness, harps, and leprechauns, when many Irish folks are really concerned with paying their mortgages and feeding their families right now, like everyone else.


Yes - that's why I called it _spiritual_ home, as opposed to geographical home. The spiritual home exists in the spiritual world of single persons only, and its character can deviate from the geographical home as vastly as ever you like. Most of us need some Shangri-La over the rainbows the music tells us about, and calling it Ireland is like an illegal trademark infringement. A single visit to the real Ireland will suffice to correct this, and maybe bitterly so, but it also presents a chance to find a better spiritual home. I went through that process several times and I do recommend it.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Speaking as someone in the USA who participates in the session scene, I don't think any of this Plastic Paddy stuff applies to sessions I've attended over here. Everyone I know who plays in sessions has only one interest, and that's just getting together to play the tunes. There's no way to "romanticize" the act of playing a set of reels. You can either play them up to reasonable dance tempo, with drive and lift, or you can't.


Interesting point opened up there: those tunes have no words, and the parts of our brains that do the playing and listening (and enjoying) are not the ones that do the talking about it and that erect the explanation superstructure. Maybe enjoying it and explaining why we enjoy it exclude each other.  :Confused:

----------


## Bertram Henze

> While there's certainly a performance aspect in a session, at its heart, it's music played for the enjoyment of music. Many session players would be (and are) just as happy playing in a kitchen with a few friends. Otheres do like the aspect of showing off or sharing with others, but public performance is not really at the essence of a session.


I find the interaction and roles of musicians and patrons in a pub session most interesting. It is not a performance because there is not a duel of performers and audience facing each other, each one officially there for the aural/financial benefit of the other. It is kind of a relaxed symbiosis creating a more convivial atmosphere. It is also kind of a ritual commemorating what is supposed to happen in Ireland, thus providing a wormhole to step through for all, a 4-hour holiday for the price of a pint. Therefore, it is also kind of fragile, easy to spoil.

----------


## Steve L

> Hi all,
> One of the initial posts to this thread (in May) by Nick discussed his experience with "rudeness" in a session. Not sure I'm ready to jump into the mire , but I was at that event. To sort of clarify it a bit, it was not actually a sesiun, but advertised as a "_teaching_, _slow_ Irish sesiun." When one potential student showed up at the very first 'sesiun' with a music stand (the location of this event was at a music store, known for being an excellent music school as well) she was just dutifully doing what she thought was 'expected.' (She also plays in our local Mandolin Orchestra so this seemed like the 'proper' thing to do.) Unfortunately, not only was she told she couldn't use any music, I feel she was belittled in the process  - just the way she was told really came across quite demeaning to all of us and, well, rude. The rest of the night involved the 'leaders' saying "okay, now you play."  One did not have the option to pass, or even ask to hear the tune a second time. You 'had' to play or you were scorned. Publically. Most of us had never heard the tune before, knew nothing about lift or groove - we just knew we loved the Irish music and this would be a wonderful opportunity to dive in, in a 'safe' (ie: welcoming, slow, beginning) environment. 
> We were all wrong. Need I say, this "slow sesiun" with the 'teachers' did not last long at all. Perhaps this sheds a little more light on why Nick was pretty put off by the 'seisun.' He really is a great mandolin player and really does listen, is always helping people learn, and "plays well with others." 
> To end on a positive note, many of the same folks from that 'class' (used loosely) are now sitting, listening, and absorbing in our local seisiuns and loving it. Some are playing at tempo (and very well) -others, like myself, are still listening and learning (and dare I say a little gun-shy still to try and assimilate). No one appreciates being belittled - especially when they are sweet and just trying to be a good 'student' in the only way they know how. 
> May the music continue to breathe, and live on!


This unfortunate experience has nothing to do with people who play Irish music and everything to do with this  instructor's sociopathy.  There always have been and always will be people like this mangling souls wherever they go. They exist in every idiom. I can't count the number of adult students I've had that put down instruments for years because of encounters with people like that.

----------


## Paul Cowham

great thread...

On the performance aspect of a session, in my experience they tend to be for the musicians who participate in them not for the public (although the landlord may disagree - especially if they are giving free beer away!). I remember being in a session on more than one occasion and people in the pub who had not experienced a session before started clapping after each set of tunes - much to the bemusement and embarrasement of the musicians, who eventually informed the "punters" that they weren't really meant to clap and it wasn't a performance! The dynamic between the musicians in the session, as someone else pointed out, can be very interesting though..

There has been alot of talk about tradition and about how it can be over romanticised which I basically agree with. That said, I really enjoy doing someting in this digital age which relies on acoustic instruments (in the case of a mandolin some wood and metal strings), and if that involves playing tunes which can be over 100 years old that people have been playing all that time then that does add a certain gravitas to what you are doing.

To come in at another tangent, I wonder how traditional the pub session actually is? After all the music is dance music so I presume that the tunes were originally written and performed for dances and not in the pub just for the music's sake, so I wonder how long pub sessions have been going on, maybe this is a comparatively recent development within the overall musical tradition?

----------


## Brent Hutto

Paul,

Then again think how much faster a lot of sessions can play those tunes without a bunch of pesky dancers slowing them down. Funny how a 250-year-old tune that for its first 200 years was played at the tempo the dancers needed is now played 20, 30, 40bpm faster in the name of keeping the tradition alive.

----------


## Paul Cowham

> Paul,
> 
> Then again think how much faster a lot of sessions can play those tunes without a bunch of pesky dancers slowing them down. Funny how a 250-year-old tune that for its first 200 years was played at the tempo the dancers needed is now played 20, 30, 40bpm faster in the name of keeping the tradition alive.


very true Brent, just goes to show that traditions keep on evolving and how the whole notion of "having to stick rigidly to the tradition" is somewhat nonsensical.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I remember being in a session on more than one occasion and people in the pub who had not experienced a session before started clapping after each set of tunes - much to the bemusement and embarrasement of the musicians, who eventually informed the "punters" that they weren't really meant to clap and it wasn't a performance!


Non-musicians at our sessions tend to applaude every now and then, but only if the set of tunes was extraordinarily well played. I think that's OK because it gives a much more honest feedback than performance audiences who applaude every time because they have paid for it (is that logic?)

----------


## Steve L

I think a at least some of this perception of people trying to "preserve a tradition" is a projection on people who are actually trying to exercise something closer to "quality control" over playing a particular style of a particular music in a specific set of  circumstances.  

I would think it odd to tell people who are applauding your playing that they shouldn't do that.

----------


## PaulG

> There has been alot of talk about tradition and about how it can be over romanticised which I basically agree with. That said, I really enjoy doing someting in this digital age which relies on acoustic instruments


Oh, goodness, so do I. For me, I think it comes down to the simplicity of things, and the simple satisfaction and pleasure of being able to make good music using nothing but your own hands and "some wood and metal" as you put it, there's something very appealing, personal and self-contained about that to me, in a way that's totally unrelated to questions of historicity. I do see intrinsic value in enjoying hearing echoes from the past in old tunes, too, just like I enjoy going to look at ruined castles, and stuff.




> To come in at another tangent, I wonder how traditional the pub session actually is? After all the music is dance music so I presume that the tunes were originally written and performed for dances and not in the pub just for the music's sake, so I wonder how long pub sessions have been going on, maybe this is a comparatively recent development within the overall musical tradition?


It's not sourced, and I don't know what the actual evidence is, but this article reports the first recorded ITM pub session as taking place in London in 1947, then getting exported back to Ireland and becoming popular there by the 1960s. Even if true, I'm not sure how much can be read into this - if the exact same thing had been previously happening for generations in a different venue, such as someone's house or a village hall (and I don't know if it had been, the article doesn't address that) it probably wouldn't be fair to describe it as a "recent development" just on account of people starting to do it in a new type of venue. 

On the question of dance music, I'm not sure. I'd speculate without any evidence at all that to get sufficiently competent to play at a dance, the musicians would have had to have enjoyed playing the music for it's own sake, too, so would likely have gotten together to just enjoy playing it, even if there were no spectators. But not _all_ the music is dance music - _sean nós_ singing and slow airs immediately spring to mind, for instance. History is replete with accounts of bards and minstrels and the like, so undoubtedly there _was_ a tradition of performance music as well as dance music, but how much of that tradition included the specific tunes that tend to be heard at sessions today is probably impossible to answer, now. It's also possible that an existing piece of performance music could have been adapted to be danced to, rather than each piece being specifically composed as a dance tune, so there's all kinds of variables, I guess.

----------


## JeffD

> The "tradition" as it is _today_ is indeed all about "getting together to play the tunes" as you put it, as it should be, in my view, because as far as I can see, that's what it's _always_ been about, as opposed to ... .


There is another, more common, misconception (or misperception) to address.

Traditional Irish music is a great example, and there are other other genres also, where indeed it is all about getting together to play the tunes. As opposed to getting together to express your own creative take on the tunes, or to participate in any sporting rivalry. I think if you come from a tradition which emphasizes creativity and improvisation, you are going to notice this difference right away and have to accomodate it.

----------


## Shelagh Moore

> Non-musicians at our sessions tend to applaude every now and then, but only if the set of tunes was extraordinarily well played. I think that's OK because it gives a much more honest feedback than performance audiences who applaude every time because they have paid for it (is that logic?)


Likewise at the ones I'm involved with although the audience might or might not know if something was extraodinarily well played... at least they enjoyed it. We never complain.




> Then again think how much faster a lot of sessions can play those tunes without a bunch of pesky dancers slowing them down. Funny how a 250-year-old tune that for its first 200 years was played at the tempo the dancers needed is now played 20, 30, 40bpm faster in the name of keeping the tradition alive.


I've seen that in some sessions but make an active effort not to speed things where I'm leading... often I'll play slower but with more "swing" or lift as was mentioned earlier in the thread.




> It's not sourced, and I don't know what the actual evidence is, but this article reports the first recorded ITM pub session as taking place in London in 1947, then getting exported back to Ireland and becoming popular there by the 1960s. Even if true, I'm not sure how much can be read into this - if the exact same thing had been previously happening for generations in a different venue, such as someone's house or a village hall (and I don't know if it had been, the article doesn't address that) it probably wouldn't be fair to describe it as a "recent development" just on account of people starting to do it in a new type of venue.


Can't comment on the Camden origins of the pub session but certainly there were "kitchen sessions" in peoples' houses long before pub sessions. Certainly in Ireland during the 1920s and 30s, as my mother recalled my grandfather (a notable fiddler) playing in such settings in rural Co. Sligo when she was young.

----------


## zoukboy

> At post 47 you stated:
> 
> 
> 
> I will concede that you did not say that the "part you are hearing" was the least important component, but simply was not the most important component.  And it has also been suggested that your comment was more about what you believed the ignorance trumpeter was hearing rather than about Irish traditional music in general.  And I can live with that explanation (or any other you care to provide) but that is not the way it hit me when I first read it.


Ah, OK!  Your point is well taken. That was imprecise language on my part. It would have been clearer if I'd written, "The part you are hearing, the "notes," [the bare skeleton of the music that can be represented by written notation], is not the most important component of that music."

I was indeed trying to get at the original poster's lack of familiarity with the music.

One of the problems with using notation for learning tunes is that not only does notation give a sorrowfully incomplete picture of the music, its use in the acquisition of tunes puts the focus solely on "the notes," or that skeletal structure, and not on the most important aspects of the music, which are everything else but that structure.

In my teaching I use notation only for archiving tunes for students who have first experienced the tunes by ear.  It seems to avoid the tendency for melodies to get locked into the shape as represented on paper and allows them to remain open to possibility.

In years of teaching ITM I have had numerous students who insist on learning from written notation, while the majority of students embrace learning by ear. It's interesting that those who stick with the paper progress slowly if at all, while the others who trust the time-proven process of transmission zip right ahead in their learning. There is a reason why the tradition puts such a high value on learning by ear.

----------


## DougC

> One of the problems with using notation for learning tunes is that not only does notation give a sorrowfully incomplete picture of the music, its use in the acquisition of tunes puts the focus solely on "the notes," or that skeletal structure, and not on the most important aspects of the music, which are everything else but that structure.
> 
> In my teaching I use notation only for archiving tunes for students who have first experienced the tunes by ear.  It seems to avoid the tendency for melodies to get locked into the shape as represented on paper and allows them to remain open to possibility.
> 
> In years of teaching ITM I have had numerous students who insist on learning from written notation, while the majority of students embrace learning by ear. It's interesting that those who stick with the paper progress slowly if at all, while the others who trust the time-proven process of transmission zip right ahead in their learning. There is a reason why the tradition puts such a high value on learning by ear.


And some poor teachers insist on forcing people to play by ear, as in Nick's unfortunate experience. That is just bad form on the teachers' part, as I'm sure you agree. Moreover, I know all about the bias of not using sheet music; having written a book of our favorite tunes.

----------


## Brent Hutto

> In years of teaching ITM I have had numerous students who insist on learning from written notation, while the majority of students embrace learning by ear. It's interesting that those who stick with the paper progress slowly if at all, while the others who trust the time-proven process of transmission zip right ahead in their learning. There is a reason why the tradition puts such a high value on learning by ear.


As a statistician let me point out that _selection bias_ could easily be responsible for your observation. I could play fiddle tunes from sheet music within a matter of days of picking up a mandolin for the first time. Almost a year later, it takes me literally hours to puzzle through a tune by ear that I could play in 5-10 minutes with the notes in front of me. 

If I quit playing tomorrow you'd be incorrect to assume that it was because I never got any good at learning tunes by ear. It would be that I never learned to play by ear because I quit before I developed the required skill.

I wish I could listen to a tune 8-10 times, play along slowly another 8-10 times and then have it memorized. I also wish I could dunk a basketball, make a decent risotto and play tremolo like Mike Compton. For some people certain things come easier than others. For me getting from being able to sing a tune to being able to play it at even 70-80bpm on a mandolin comes very difficult. Probably from singing and having played half a dozen instruments from sheet music starting when I was seven years old. Perhaps some of your "insist on notation" students are simply dancing with the one that brung them, so to speak.

----------


## SincereCorgi

> It's not sourced, and I don't know what the actual evidence is, but this article reports the first recorded ITM pub session as taking place in London in 1947, then getting exported back to Ireland and becoming popular there by the 1960s.


Most of what I've read puts the development of the Irish session around the same time frame... so, you know, that ancient, ancient tradition, approximately as old as, say, _Leave it to Beaver._

Once again, the hangups about sheet music mystify me. In every other tradition –#be it jazz, classical, any sort of studio-recorded music – it's expected that a finished musician should be able to take the music on the page and, using the magic of musicianship, interpret it beautifully in the correct style. (I know a session drummer who gets studio calls for exactly this reason– it's not that the bands who are recording have bad drummers, they just can't sight-read, making them a liability when they have to use charts in a time-is-money environment.) Edit: having said that, it's expected that a finished musician should also be able to play and learn tunes by ear, and most of acquiring a style admittedly comes from listening and imitating. That goes for classical music as well, though.

I was listening to that 'Cooleys' recording that's gushed-over in 'Last Night's Fun' – recommended earlier in the thread, $2 on Amazon – and while it's fine and idiomatic playing, I don't think it's anything that players steeped in the Irish style couldn't arrive at from notation. As, indeed, if you read that book, they often appear to do.

----------


## Gelsenbury

I don't really believe that anything gets *fixed* by notation unless you want it to. I'm currently learning a couple of hornpipes, and I couldn't do it without notation. That doesn't mean I'm learning the tune without the proper lilt - that gets added somewhere between the sheet and the string, because I know how the tune is *meant* to sound. So, yes, I'm using information other than the printed music; but I couldn't remember all the notes without it. 

Isn't it a bit like cooking a meal by recipe? You'd only follow the recipe to the letter if you really had no idea at all about how the finished dish is supposed to taste. In all other cases, you'd use your discretion and intuition. And if you made up a new recipe from scratch, I'm sure you wouldn't refrain from writing it down as an aid to memory, for fear of somehow spoiling it by putting it into written form.

----------


## JeffD

There are thousands more tunes out there than I will ever get to hear even once, much less hear enough to learn. I would be severly limited if I could only play tunes that I hear being played or that are recorded somewhere.

Its not an either or. If you are steeped in a tradition, and get the feeling down inside deep, you can read a tune that is new to you and get it pretty well. I have done this many times - found a tune in a book or collection or somewhere, fell in love with the tune through site reading, learned it from the page, made it my own, and played it well enough that when I introduced it at a trad session it was recognized and understood and some had even heard it a long time before. 

You have to be mindful when you do this, and have enough experience in the tradition that you can play the tune with the appropriate emphasis, but that being said, it is far from impossible to do.

This has nothing to do with taking out sheet music at a session, which depends on the specific session, and I have never been to a strictly Irish session where anyone used sheet music. But learning tunes from music, its indispensible. Even at two or three jams a week I will not live long enough to hear all the tunes I want to play.

----------


## Clement Barrera-Ng

> In my teaching I use notation only for archiving tunes for students who have first experienced the tunes by ear.  It seems to avoid the tendency for melodies to get locked into the shape as represented on paper and allows them to remain open to possibility.
> 
> In years of teaching ITM I have had numerous students who insist on learning from written notation, while the majority of students embrace learning by ear. It's interesting that those who stick with the paper progress slowly if at all, while the others who trust the time-proven process of transmission zip right ahead in their learning. There is a reason why the tradition puts such a high value on learning by ear.



My personal experience is with Roger on this.  I have taken years of piano lessons as a child, and received a lot of training in sight reading along the way. I can actually sight read a tune and play it at moderate speed if it calls for it.  And it would be correct to say that I can 'learn' a tune much much faster from notation than it would otherwise take me if I had to listen to it, play it back a few times, and pick out the notes.  

But on the other hand, the tunes that do stay with me, the ones that I am able to retain much longer after I 'learned' it initially,  are the ones that I learned by ear.  Those are also the tunes that I find it easier to 'dig into' - picking it at session speed, getting into the groove etc. It's as if my playing is at least partially informed by my musical memory of having heard the tune before, and not just a bunch of notes off a piece of paper.  

Don't get me wrong: Notation is a great great way to learn tunes, and it allows the music to spread in ways that it otherwise would have been able to. Think how much the printing press had done to help spread learning and knowledge around the world.  But like everything else, if one develops too heavy a reliance (dare it say sole reliance) on it, then it will become a hindrance in the end.  Nowadays, I use a combination of notation and listening when I learn a new tune: I first find out the name of the tune, look up the notation online, and pick through it a few times to get the basic contour. I then look up a video or recording of it, and see how other people are playing it, and try to get  sense of how it is supposed to 'sound' in my head.  And after that it's just practice, listen, and practice some more. This seems to work quite well for me, but I can see that it may not be for everyone

----------


## PaulG

> Once again, the hangups about sheet music mystify me. In every other tradition –#be it jazz, classical, any sort of studio-recorded music – it's expected that a finished musician should be able to take the music on the page and, using the magic of musicianship, interpret it beautifully in the correct style.


I have to agree. While a statement like "notation give[s] a sorrowfully incomplete picture of the music" is certainly _true_ for ITM, it's also true to a greater or lesser extent for every other type of music, too. Unless you're programming a drum machine, written music _never_ represents a complete information set, and always requires an actual musician to turn the scratches on the paper into actual music. Even in the classical world, which most people assume to be the epitome of "playing the written page", there are endless disagreements over which recording of a certain piece is the best, and it's not because any of those recordings were done using different notes. If it was as easy as just playing the notes, every violinist would be a Yehudi Menuhin after a few years, and there wouldn't be such intense competition for seats in top orchestras. Playing _any_ music at a high level requires a lot of listening and a lot of interpretation of that learned sequence of notes, whether those notes were learned from a page, or learned by listening carefully to a record or to a fellow musician. I don't like the way the phrase "playing by ear" is used sometimes, because it implies that you don't need to use your ears or your musical sensibilities much if you learn from or play with written music, which is obviously nonsense. 

As you suggest in your last paragraph, if someone learns the "bare bones" of a reel from written music and then blatantly fails to play it in the appropriately stylistic way, the mere fact that it was originally learned from a page is not what's at fault. Even if you learn a tune from the page, in any type of music, you're still going to have to listen to how other people play it if you want to become able to play it like they do (or to have at least done that enough times in the past that you become sufficiently "steeped in the ... style" to be able to interpret it yourself; the existence of regional variations shows that there's no "right way" to play a particular tune anyhow). Perhaps it's true that, as a simple matter of observable fact, beginners who read actually _do_ tend to neglect that stylistic side of things more than folks who don't read do for whatever reason or reasons, but if it is, I've not seen anything other than anecdotal evidence for it. Even if it were true, I'd think that putting more emphasis on the stylistic and execution sides would be a better solution than discouraging people from reading, which is a marvelous skill to have.

I do tend to agree that actually _using_ written music in a session or jam is a bit odd, though. If you're going to participate in something like that, then wherever you learned a tune from, I think at a minimum you should have it comfortably memorized, and actually know the tune.

----------


## foldedpath

> Most of what I've read puts the development of the Irish session around the same time frame... so, you know, that ancient, ancient tradition, approximately as old as, say, _Leave it to Beaver._


Well, it's the tunes that are ancient (or at least old, most of 'em), even if the venue and lack of dancers is a recent development. Here's what Wikipedia says about it:

"_The actual achievement of independence from Britain tallied closely with a new Irish establishment desire to separate Irish culture from the European mainstream, but the new Irish government also paid heed to clerical calls to curtail 'jazz dancing' and other suggestions of a dereliction in Irish moralitythough it was not until 1935 that the Public Dance Halls Act curtailed the right of anyone to hold their own events; from then on, no public musical or dancing events could be held in a public space without a license and most of those were usually only granted to 'suitable' persons - often the parish priest.

Combined with continued emigration, and the priesthood's inevitable zeal in closing down un-licensed events, the upshot was to drive traditional music and dancing back into the cottage where it remained until returning migrants persuaded pub owners to host sessions in the early 1960s._"
There are some interesting quotes about the effect of the Dance Hall Act in this profile of Junior Crehan from Fiddler Magazine.

----------


## michaelpthompson

> To sort of clarify it a bit, it was not actually a sesiun, but advertised as a "_teaching_, _slow_ Irish sesiun." When one potential student showed up at the very first 'sesiun' with a music stand (the location of this event was at a music store, known for being an excellent music school as well) she was just dutifully doing what she thought was 'expected.' (She also plays in our local Mandolin Orchestra so this seemed like the 'proper' thing to do.) Unfortunately, not only was she told she couldn't use any music, I feel she was belittled in the process  - just the way she was told really came across quite demeaning to all of us and, well, rude. The rest of the night involved the 'leaders' saying "okay, now you play."  One did not have the option to pass, or even ask to hear the tune a second time. You 'had' to play or you were scorned


Sounds like the session "leaders" were the ones who really didn't understand the concept, based on your description. A "slow" session, or "learner's" session is designed to pass along the tunes to others. We've certainly covered the topic of why sheet music is not appropriate in such a setting, which is something Nick didn't understand, but the rudeness you describe in unexcusable, and expecting beginners to play a tune after one hearing is not reasonable. With experience, you get better at learning tunes that way, but it's a learned art and usually requires some innate musical ability as well.

Fortunately, as you describe, the music overcomes all that and thrives despite its disciples AND those who do not understand.

----------


## michaelpthompson

It was the custom in Ireland from quite a while back to gather in people's houses for a hooley, which usually involved dancing. Friends and neighbors would play while others danced. They always talked about removing the furniture and rolling back the carpet because the house was so small. It was also fairly common to gather around the kitchen table just to play and certainly not unknown for a few friends to meet in a pub and start pulling out instruments. In the U.S., we have no conception of how important the pub is to a community in Ireland and the UK. It's not just a bar, it's the center of social life.

The "tradition" is much less formal in Ireland, except for sessions that are promoted for the sake of the tourists.

As for applause, no musician who plays in public minds the occasional expression of appreciation. However, session players tend to become self-conscious if there is applause after every set. As I said before, there is a performance aspect to it. It's music played primarily for one's own enjoyment and sharing with friends, but they didn't want attention, they wouldn't do it in a public place.

Each session has its own balance of showmanship vs. pure enjoyment, among so many other things.

----------


## Paul Kotapish

> I do tend to agree that actually _using_ written music in a session or jam is a bit odd, though. If you're going to participate in something like that, then wherever you learned a tune from, I think at a minimum you should have it comfortably memorized, and actually know the tune.


Bingo. I don't think anyone is arguing that there's a problem using dots to ferret out the odd tune or forgotten favorite. But ear learning is essential to the idiom. (Self-stifling further bloviation.)

From the Dead Horse Flogging Department . . .

----------


## zoukboy

While I'll stick with my assertion that aural learning for ITM is more efficacious than learning from written sources, I have never said that music reading ability is unimportant.  It's just that it is not a substitute for aural learning.  

I will add that music writing is at least as important as the ability to sightread. IMHO the best formula for acquiring a tune is to learn a setting (or settings) from live or recorded aural sources and once those notes are committed to memory write to them down. For musicians who read that "completes the circle," as one of my students said, and makes the memory of the tune more solid.  However one acquires the notes the real learning takes place after the basic form is memorized and the tune and it's personality are well under one's fingers.

----------


## Brent Hutto

> While I'll stick with my assertion that aural learning for ITM is more efficacious than learning from written sources, I have never said that music reading ability is unimportant.  It's just that it is not a substitute for aural learning.


I don't disagree with that conclusion at all. A tune learned from simply listening to multiple versions, getting the melody under your fingers by trial and error and then practicing until you can incorporate the essence of the style learned from those different versions into your own playing is a tune that is Well and Truly Learned.

----------


## Paul Cowham

In terms of music notation, the Irish musicians that I know who have been through and now teach at Comhaltas use ABC format for notating tunes, and have their own symbols for denoting rolls and other ornamentation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC_notation

It seems to be used as an aide memoir and to help learning new tunes but not as a substitute for aural learning.

----------


## Avi Ziv

> Paul,
> 
> Then again think how much faster a lot of sessions can play those tunes without a bunch of pesky dancers slowing them down. Funny how a 250-year-old tune that for its first 200 years was played at the tempo the dancers needed is now played 20, 30, 40bpm faster in the name of keeping the tradition alive.


Are you serious? In my experience céilí set dancers require *blistering* speed. Have you been to one recently? I've played in sessions where some people got up to dance some sets and we were asked to play for them. The speedup is very noticeable. But maybe it changes from place to place

----------


## Brent Hutto

I was at a Irish music (and dance) educational event last weekend and both the dancers and musicians commented during the dance demonstration that it's more common for the dancers to have to ask the musicians to slow down than the opposite. But they were talking about the more elaborate step dances for competitions and such. Maybe in casual events the dancers use simpler steps at a much faster tempo. 

Still it seems I see a lot of discussion here about "dance tempo" versus "session tempo" for, say, a jig tune. Always in the direction of the latter being 20, 30, 40bpm (or more) faster than the former.

----------


## Avi Ziv

> While I'll stick with my assertion that aural learning for ITM is more efficacious than learning from written sources, I have never said that music reading ability is unimportant.  It's just that it is not a substitute for aural learning.  
> 
> I will add that music writing is at least as important as the ability to sightread. IMHO the best formula for acquiring a tune is to learn a setting (or settings) from live or recorded aural sources and once those notes are committed to memory write to them down. For musicians who read that "completes the circle," as one of my students said, and makes the memory of the tune more solid.  However one acquires the notes the real learning takes place after the basic form is memorized and the tune and it's personality are well under one's fingers.


I fully agree!

As someone who was raised on "legit" music, it took a real effort for me to get-off-the-page, as I call it. I see many others going through this process. However, the effort was worthwhile, even if not easy. I rarely, if ever now, learn a tune by reading the dots first. 

Having said that, the dots are not without merit. There is value in looking over accurately-transcribed settings of fine musicians  - some of which may not be alive anymore - and seeing how they make certain phrases, turnarounds etc. Looking up music in a book such as, say The Northern Fiddler, is very interesting to me. Still - the vast majority of the time I pick up tunes by listening and transferring the music to my fingers. I can't imagine me doing it any other way.

I think that in teaching, one has to strike the balance between letting the student be comfortable with methods they know, and at some point removing the crutch. How you go about doing it is in the personalities and having not only mutual respect but also trust. It does take trust to "let go" of anything in life.

----------


## Brent Hutto

Avi,

For myself, I'm treating the learn-by-listening skill like tremolo or any other technique. Spend time trying to do it, gradually acquire it by practice and don't let being bad at that technique get in the way of making music in the ways that do work for me right now. 

It's a tough one, though. Almost as tough as ear training for harmony (not emphasized in ITM but crucial elsewhere).

----------


## Avi Ziv

I hear you, Brent. Just keep at it. I can just tell you that once you get there, the feeling of freedom is exhilarating and it really accelerates your learning of tunes as you can learn then anywhere at any time. But much more importantly - it will improve your deep listening skills and your ear-to-finger coordination.

I can appreciate trying to learn something that is not intuitive to you. I'm trying to learn how to roll a kayak and that involves several non-intuitive,yet perfectly coordinated, moves. They all tell me how easy it is once I conquer that and it's motivating, yet still very frustrating.

A supportive environment is always good for moving between levels.

----------


## foldedpath

> Maybe in casual events the dancers use simpler steps at a much faster tempo.


I think many of us who are climbing the learning curve for this music tend to underestimate actual dance tempos. I know I do. Sometimes we play sets a little too fast (for our ability) at our intermediate session. It's tempting to think that the music _shouldn't_ go any faster, just because we can't play it faster. But then I see something like this clip below, and realize we're still on the learning curve for playing at full dance tempos:

----------


## Bertram Henze

> ...ear training for harmony (not emphasized in ITM but crucial elsewhere).


Only as long as you don't enter a session with a zouk in hand and are expected to chord-accompany an unkown tune after hearing it the first time round, thus creating potential trouble compared to which bringing sheet music is a lesser sin. But that boldly opens a door no post in this thread has opened before...  :Chicken:

----------


## Avi Ziv

> I think many of us who are climbing the learning curve for this music tend to underestimate actual dance tempos. I know I do. Sometimes we play sets a little too fast (for our ability) at our intermediate session. It's tempting to think that the music _shouldn't_ go any faster, just because we can't play it faster. But then I see something like this clip below, and realize we're still on the learning curve for playing at full dance tempos:


Thanks foldedpath -That's what I was talking about and...faster too. Last year I attended the Mid Atlantic Comhaltas convention and stood there with my jaw on the floor watching the ceili and the sheer acrobatic playing that was going on on stage by some of the nation's best players. btw - the volume of the sound system was impressive too ! Some serious physical stamina was required of the players - not only the dancers. But the adrenaline was pumping in the room and both the dancers and players were pushing one anther.  I saw the same thing at the Catskills Irish Arts Week which we attend every July.

----------


## Jim Nollman

Although I don't play traditional Irish dances, I regularly play contra dances where about half the tunes as well as some of the dances, are Celtic in origin. The speed we play is entirely at the Caller's discretion. The best Callers are acutely aware of the endurance of each unique group of dancers. They may ask us to do _Haste to the Wedding_ as slow as 110 bpm for elderly dancers, and 120 for younger folks. Usually there's some acceleration involved, but its alway relative to the start-up beat.  In my experience, A Caller who wants everything at a fast speed, is no fun for either musicians or dancers. At some speed the tunes lose their bounce, and all were able to do is keep hitting the "one" and play a reduced version of the melody. The dancers get too tired too early in the evening, and half may leave earlier than they planned.

The video directly above this post, is what I'd describe as intermediate speed, accelerating slightly but not difficult for most contra dance bands I see here in the Pacific Northwest.  Speed it up another 6 or 8 tics, and I'll start losing coordination between right and left hand.

----------


## Paul Kotapish

Here's a great trad session that breaks with a lot of what we associate with the tradition. It's also the earliest example of mandolin at an Irish "session." From the Kilrush Fleadh, 1967.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> ...But then I see something like this clip below, and realize we're still on the learning curve for playing at full dance tempos


They play The Cup of Tea at the same tempo we do in our sessions - and I have seen stepdancers dance to that. Perfectly normal.
If that is too slow yet, watch this Leahy performance (and in case you wonder where the dancers are, wait until 4:30):

----------


## Paul Kotapish

A few more examples of pre-Bothy Band/Planxty/De Danaan ITM:

----------


## Paul Kotapish



----------


## Paul Kotapish



----------


## Paul Kotapish



----------


## Paul Kotapish

And my personal favorite:

----------


## PaulG

> A few more examples of pre-Bothy Band/Planxty/De Danaan ITM:


Great videos, thanks for posting.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> A few more examples of pre-Bothy Band/Planxty/De Danaan ITM


What a shocking revelation...
The bodhran player bringing a tambourine (!) and playing it undampened would get thrown out even from friendly sessions today (I have seen it). The pretty lady who pretends to play whistle but only tweets the same note over and over, hiding behind the accordion, would not get applause either. Anybody starting The Mason's Apron would get suspicious gazes...

OTOH, these people were not strangers - they probably knew each other all their lives and had no desire nor could they afford to diss anybody; after all, this was maybe the only entertainment for miles around. 

And certainly none of them got any kind of instrument aquisition syndrome  :Whistling: 
I guess they'd have welcomed just any kind of instrument that would contribute.

From this follows, that the tradition we play actually *is* Bothy Band et al.

----------


## Gelsenbury

I like the relaxed approach to instrumentation and proficiency. It seems to represent folk music in its truest sense.  :Smile:  

But those spectacles are my favourite ...

----------


## Jim Nollman

That tune in the first Irish video, sounds like Morpeth Rant. Is it worth noting that this tune is said to have originated in northern England? What is a "rant" anyway? Is it some kind of dance?

----------


## allenhopkins

> ...What is a "rant" anyway? Is it some kind of dance?


Dictionary definition: "an energetic dance, or its tune (_Scottish_)."

----------


## Tim2723

Often danced late into the night accompanied by a loud, obnoxious instrument called a rackett.  Sleepy neighbors would yell at the revelers from their windows, hence the term "Quit your rant and knock off that racket!".

----------


## AnneFlies

So if I can't play at lightning speed, don't come to our session?  How does a person learn if they can't join in?  I might be wrong, but this sounds like a closed club.

Anne.

----------


## foldedpath

> So if I can't play at lightning speed, don't come to our session?  How does a person learn if they can't join in?  I might be wrong, but this sounds like a closed club.


Anne, with any luck, there will be a variety of sessions in your area ranging from high-level (which might _seem_ like a closed club if you're not up to the group ability), to intermediate, to beginner-level sessions. That's how it is in most places, especially urban areas that have a large enough population of interested players. 

People naturally tend to separate themselves into groups of similar skill levels, so not all sessions run at blazing tempos. Most sessions welcome those who are at least making the attempt, even if it might not mean that they'll slow down every tune for you.

On the question of "how do I learn if I can't join in?", well, some limited learning can take place at the session if you have "fast ears" that can pick up an unknown tune quickly. But for most folks, the learning takes place outside the session. It's a result of years of home practice, getting together with other players for kitchen sessions, lessons from teachers, attending workshops, etc.

This post from the Chiff & Fipple forum thread I mentioned earlier, talks about how what you see at a session is just the 10% tip of an iceberg. All the effort people have made to play like that, has taken place "below the waterline," as it were. That's a nice metaphor, I think. The people I know who are great session players (much better than me), didn't get that way just by playing at sessions.

----------


## Steve L

> So if I can't play at lightning speed, don't come to our session?  How does a person learn if they can't join in?  I might be wrong, but this sounds like a closed club.
> 
> Anne.


But how do you envision yourself "joining in" if you can't play the tunes?  I'm not trying to be unpleasant, but this point of view is incomprehensible to me.  In all seriousness, exactly how do you think it should work?

----------


## Gelsenbury

> So if I can't play at lightning speed, don't come to our session?  How does a person learn if they can't join in?  I might be wrong, but this sounds like a closed club.


This is going around in circles a bit. Sessions vary not only in terms of speed, size and musicianship, but also in terms of openness to beginners. My local session plays much too fast for me, but they nevertheless encourage me to try to join in and work it out. Others, by the sounds of it, seem to prefer you to sit out if you can't keep up. 

The good advice I've read time and time again here is to go and listen first, get talking to the musicians, and find out how local custom works. Then bring your instrument if it seems suitable. It's not a closed shop, there's just a lot of variation from session to session.

----------


## allenhopkins

*Here's* the Finucane Chapter of Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eirann's list of seisuns around Rochester, as an example.  Note that the monthlies at Johnny's Irish Pub list a 90-minute learners' session, and a 30-minute singers' session, before the main part of the evening.

This is how a lot of people learn; there's also a fiddle club, *Fiddlers of the Genesee,* that devotes a fair amount of its time to teaching and developing -- not just fiddlers, but those wanting to play fiddle-based music.  FOG doesn't concentrate on Celtic tunes, but a fair part of the repertoire that members learn includes many numbers frequently played at seisuns.

In the "learners" environment, sheet music is definitely permitted, tempos are slower, time is spent helping people get going on the tunes.  The "regular" seisuns that I've attended have been quite tolerant of non-virtuosic participants, and will accommodate "warhorses" (_Irish Washerwoman, Wind That Shakes the Barley, Harvest Home_ etc.) that some of the regulars have probably played a thousand times, just to give all a chance to join in.

Not to say that there aren't times when a small group will spin off to a different room to concentrate on playing *really serious* obscure and difficult music.   Which is as it should be.  But definitely not a "closed shop"; I've never seen anyone totally frozen out or openly disrespected.  Clearly some don't find the atmosphere and repertoire to be what they want, and disappear after one seisun, not planning to return.  And that's also as it should be, IMHO.

My experience: don't be scared, don't be hesitant.  Be attentive and respectful, listen well, join in when you can, take cues from the more experienced, do a lot of your learning at home by yourself, picking up the tunes.  If some parts of seisun are too challenging, there's beer on tap at the bar, and another corner of the room to chat with a friend.  Come back when they're playing _Flowers of Edinburgh,_ 'cause you've got that one down.

----------


## brunello97

Allen, I love the Fiddlers of the Genesee site.  Awesome.  My Mom's people were from upstate and when I was a kid we would get shipped out of Texas up that way to cool off in the summer. Well, a bit to the east of you, actually. Drank my share of Genesee (and Rolling Rock) when I was growing up. Down on the Gulf Coast, that was as exotic as you might expect.  'Genesee'.

Man, this is a loooong thread. Worked my way about half through the first Foinn Seisiun book while this has been going on. I like how they all kind of sound the same, but different. But I like a lot of things that can be described that way.  I'll check back in when y'all get up around 600 or so posts.  :Wink: 

Mick

----------


## Fretless

Anne,

A couple of summers ago I was in Ann Arbor visiting family and had dinner at a pub downtown that had a nice session going on in the next room. I can't remember the name but while looking for it online I came across a couple of links to local Irish events, including some sessions: 

http://suapi2.org/api/51/s/tcc/options:p=c&detail=4
http://sessionite.com/page.php?in=153

I have no info on any of these sessions, and I apologize if you're already aware of them. I was mostly thinking that it may be a way to meet up with other Irish players.

I also see that the Saline Celtic Festival is about to start. And I'm really jealous that you have so many options in your area.  :Smile: 

Fretless

----------


## Fretless

The whole session thing sometimes seems as cryptic as the Underpants Gnomes Profit Plan:




But it really isn't. The Chiff and Fipple comment nicely summarizes what many here have already said but I'll chime in by emphasizing that, for those of us whose main focus is Irish music,_ joining a session is not a goal unto itself._ It's one part of a big package that includes all that stuff lurking below the surface. 

The session I co-host is always willing to slow down a few tunes to make a beginner feel welcome. We hold slow and tune-learning house sessions. We maintain a website with information about sessions, a few guidelines on etiquette, a partial list of tunes we play, some mp3's and even PDF files. Once we even played Old Joe Clark and Tennessee Waltz in order to make an OT player feel included. 

And yet...

People have complained about the one guitar at a time request, no chord charts provided for accompanists, unison playing only (no breaks), and especially that dagnabbit silly rule about sitting out on some of the tunes. One player who works very hard yet never seems to improve admitted that he never listens to any Irish music because he used to play in a contra dance band and knows theory really well so listening to tunes isn't important. Another claims that Irish sessions are rude and unfriendly because a tune only gets played a few times through, which isn't enough to allow a player to learn it. In other words, it's bad because it's not like an OT jam. 

Some sessions are friendly and some are not, but many experienced players are happy to help out the newbie who tries to blend into the session, keeps attending regularly and shows some improvement each time. Like any pursuit, the happiness factor correlates to the investment, and if a door closes in your face, take a look in the mirror before pointing the finger elsewhere.

Fretless

----------


## allenhopkins

> Allen, I love the Fiddlers of the Genesee site.  Awesome.  My Mom's people were from upstate and when I was a kid we would get shipped out of Texas up that way to cool off in the summer. Well, a bit to the east of you, actually. Drank my share of Genesee (and Rolling Rock) when I was growing up. Down on the Gulf Coast, that was as exotic as you might expect.  'Genesee'...Man, this is a loooong thread...


Yeah, FOG's a cool organization, though it's had its ups and downs.  I was (very tangentially) instrumental in getting it started: I have been a co-producer/stage manager of the Genesee Country Village Old-Time Fiddlers' Fair since 1981 (August 20-21 of this year!), and FOG grew out of a group of people who wanted to keep the fiddle music going year-round.  Bernadette Serrano, a real sweetie, was the nexus of that group; she edits the FOG newsletter.

Re: "long thread": I posted that dorky little YouTube vid of the clueless bodhran player trying to crash a seisun and sing _The Unicorn,_ and things apparently got out of hand since.  Evidently a subject on which the Celtiphiles among us have some strong opinions.  Me, I just like to play my mandolin(s) (and guitar, and concertina) at a seisun now and again.  I keep telling people, "Lighten up!", and they keep *beating* me up...

----------


## Avi Ziv

This frustrating problem of "I can't get a job without having experience but I can't get experience without a job" is a mystery until you start spending real time in sessions and observing. For sure different sessions are run differently. Here  is an example of a success - Dempsey's in Manhattan. You will see rank beginners sitting together with musicians like Tony Demarco and Brian Conway. Anyone with a desire to play this music is invited. The first two hours (8-10pm) are run by going around the circle, making sure everyone can start a tune. After 10pm it turns into an open session where confidence and skill matter more. Why do I say that it's a success? Because the place is packed every time. Because it's the longest running session in NY and because there is now a full-length documentary film about it which you can check out here

But that's not the only way. Years ago, when I started in this music, I fell into the only session I knew at that time and it was full of very experienced musicians, some with all-Ireland awards, CD's out etc. However, they were also very nice and encouraging and were happy for me to sit and learn. Which I did with great respect to them and the music. During the early stages we managed to form friendships and good relations which always help. The session is not only about the music and that should be stressed. Even in the early stages when I clearly could not play the tunes as fast as the others, I would start a tune slowly and it would be snapped up by the rest within 2 bars and off they would go. I remember feeling badly about it as if I was doing something wrong but amazingly, once the set was over, they would thank me for bringing up that tune. So even the *suggestion* of a tune to the group is a contribution and I would like to stress the word "contribution".  Whatever you can bring to the group that adds to the experience is looked upon favorably. A new tune, an interesting set combination, even home baked goods - believe it or not - a joke - a good story.  Little by little, you will get absorbed into the fold and become a member of the session.

Having said that, I also know sessions that are closed, meaning it's borderline performance even if it doesn't look like it. Some are run too loosely and are total chaos with little musical merit. House sessions are wonderful and you should jump at the opportunity to be in one or, better yet, hold one yourself.  You'll be amazed who may wind up sitting in your living room when you provide good food and drinks for an evening  :Wink: 

But the point is that there are no short cuts. Any way you slice it, you have to put in the musical and social work.

The only way in is through.

----------


## Bertram Henze

There is always the possibility to test-drive your own performance by playing along with recordings or sites like The Virtual Session - they are never being rude and they even provide sheet music(!) That's how I did much of my preparatory work. Once you can play along with those without yips and without looking at the dots you're good to go for any medium-level real session.

I think that adresses the chicken/egg problem, thanks to technology. The online training software I am still waiting for is the virtual session where they are actually being rude, just to build some callus on your feelings...

----------


## AnneFlies

Fretless, the place in downtown Ann Arbor you might be thinking of is Conor O'Neill's.  There's a session there Sunday from 7-10pm (at least that's what is listed on their website).  I just found out about that, so it's on my soon-to-do list.  

It sounds like I just need to drop in to a session and listen to see if or how I fit in.  There may be other sessions around here besides Conor O'Neill's, which is very public and will probably give me stage-fright.  So far, my dog has been my only audience, besides my instructor, and they're both very patient and forgiving of me.

In the meantime, I've been having fun just learning the tunes, mostly from Song of the Week.

----------


## Bren

The really good session places around the world have a lot of drop-ins.
So you don't get so much of exclusive "this is what we play at _our_ session" type of feeling. They're interested in what you can bring to the table. For a tune or two at least.

It's scary approaching strangers in a strange pub in a strange town, especially being aware that the neo-traditionalists these days don't feel a mandolin really belongs in Irish music (not such a problem in Scotland thankfully, and more of a big deal online than in real life everywhere) but I've made good friends and met some wonderful musicians all over the place by knowing some tunes and taking that step.

----------


## Cathal Whelehan

> (Re: the Dempsey's session)....and because there is now a full-length documentary film about it which you can check out here


Now THAT is _definitely_ going on my wish list! I pray for it to be released on DVD as I doubt it will be a cinema release here in Berlin (which - much to my general bafflement, if that's a word - seems to have no ITM / session scene whatsoever). 

Many thanks for the tip, Avi!

----------


## Gan Ainm

" I posted that dorky little YouTube vid of the clueless bodhran player trying to crash a seisun and sing The Unicorn, and things apparently got out of hand since...."

I really LIKED that video, for a laugh, and some others like it on entirely different subjects....  Thanks for it!
And thanks to all who worked so hard to convey the flavor of Irish sessions, which, while we can always find something to gripe about, for those of us with the "bug" are usually a great way to be for a few hours.  My passion for Irish music in the early 80s lead me to hearing Mick Moloney opine as only Mick can on clever ways "old school" Irish musicians used to "freeze out" those they considered objectionable.  We laughed till we couldnt stand up, all this at a camp (Augusta) consisting of Irish and other trad newbies hungry to laugh at ourselves and learn.  And  Mick's purist knowledge  but egalitarian mission, helped spread the seisun to all the people places and styles discussed in the above 12 pages.  Ive since taken workshops from folks including Paul K and John McG and Roger L., great teachers and musicians all.   And now Im off to .Bluegrass Camp because through this whole weird musical/social process my tastes and interests have expanded and thank God for all of it.

----------


## JeffD

> turn down the Me to get more of the Us out of the music!


Now thats the quote I'm going to afix to my case.

----------


## Beanzy

I think that's the problem where the support structure associated with any trad music is missing. 
It's more normal for people to learn their pieces around their own kitchen table or from the older brothers and sisters. 
Then when you're up to speed and feeling ok with a few you'd go along to a session and the family would proudly present the youngster and tell them to "play us that X/Y or Z" reel. Remember most kids would have a decade of experience before they'd be snuck into the pub for a couple of early session numbers, or they'd have been pitching in at dances in the village hall over many years (no booze there). People moving between towns would normally be the older and much more experienced musicians who may go other places to do business and pitch into the pub maybe getting invited to play along. If they were any good they'd be more than welcome back and folks would look forward to their presence. But they'd still be so and so from over Whatevertown way and would be considered as part of that session. The cross-pollination would happen with very few very talented musicians. 

What happens in our exploded diaspora now is people need to create replacement structures that suit the fact so many come to this music by choice now, but as an adult, so they have no depth of background. I think what we're getting here is the mutation in progress where people are choosing to adopt these traditional forms as their own in adult life. That's a difficult jump to make unless you're settling in to a new community on a permanent basis and building the support network around it. It's not really just about a session on a night, if it's going to be authentic you've got to live it. Many of us in Ireland never grew up with any proper traditional music background, myself included, and I'd feel like a lemon pitching up at a session with the mandolin. I suppose I'd be ok bringing the tin-whistles, but I've been playing them since about 8 and know how to knock out an unknown tune on them after a couple of passes so could survive after a fashion. But I'd feel like a bit of a berk just rolling up to a session in a place where I had not yet any friends playing and expecting to play. 

If people find their town has no good learning and support structure but has a good session going, why not begin some kitchen table meet-ups to build up skills with others with the aim of getting a feed-in structure going? Once you've got this kind of self-help group going for a while it would probably get plenty of support from the more established musicians and would mean you'd be familiar faces by the time you pitch up at the established session. 

The early slow-session is a good idea of course, but people need to know when to drop out. I really don't think it would be desirable that a good session should have to change it's level to accommodate non-proficient players.

----------


## JeffD

> If people find their town has no good learning and support structure but has a good session going, why not begin some kitchen table meet-ups to build up skills with others with the aim of getting a feed-in structure going?


Besides, the best music is kitchen music!




> I really don't think it would be desirable that a good session should have to change it's level to accommodate non-proficient players.


I agree.

----------


## AnneFlies

That was a blast! Good food, great beer, and a terrific Irish session. Folks are friendly and fairly proficient, and it looks like anyone can join in. There were about 15 people, 20 instruments, about half were fiddlers, 3 bodhrans (not all playing at the same time, thankfully), accordian, Irish pipes, tin whistle, flutes, couple of guitars, and a banjo (although the banjo player preferred to drink than play). What the hey - no mandos?!

----------


## Bertram Henze

> ...and a banjo (although the banjo player preferred to drink than play).


honor the banjo player who can keep these two things apart...  :Laughing:

----------


## JeffD

> That was a blast! Good food, great beer, and a terrific Irish session. Folks are friendly and fairly proficient, and it looks like anyone can join in. There were about 15 people, 20 instruments, about half were fiddlers, 3 bodhrans (not all playing at the same time, thankfully), accordian, Irish pipes, tin whistle, flutes, couple of guitars, and a banjo (although the banjo player preferred to drink than play). What the hey - no mandos?!


The kind of post I love. Good experiences seem to be unreported. 

A great jam can make my year. A trancendent couple of hours that last forever. Who knew that being alive could be this much fun!

----------


## Bren

As a business traveller, I often drop into sessions in various places round the world. Sometimes it goes great, sometimes not so great.
Best thing is to just go with the idea of having a pint and hearing some music, and maybe play some tunes if it works out that way.

Tonight, in a European town, I went around 6pm into a session that started at 5pm, and (I realised later) shut down at 8pm sharp. They seemed pretty tight - about 50% unfamiliar tunes but very few players dropped out so I guessed that they're pretty much the same bunch every week.
That kind of loosening up as the night goes on, where it's easier for a stranger to introduce themselves, never happened. C'est la vie. Later on, I chatted to one of the fiddlers when she came to the bar and she turned out to be from the same place as me - she was just visiting. But she confirmed the rest were a regular crew.

----------


## AnneFlies

I went back to Conor O'Neill's tonight, and had another great time!  Some of the musicians were repeats from last week, and some were different.  Turns out half of them are related to each other, and have been playing together for years.  They know tons of tunes, and being a newbie, I asked how they learned them all.  "Just start by learning one tune and then learn more."  Okay, I'll work on that!  BTW, great food, reasonable prices, and about 20 excellent beers on tap.  I was encouraged to bring my mandolin, but as my signature says, not ready for prime time.

This week included 4-5 fiddles, keyboard, 2 guitars, 3 flutes, Irish pipes, concertina, accordian, bodhran, 2 banjos (although the concertina and one banjo left early), and 3 little girls dancing (pretty good, too!).  Most of the players are young and very talented and delightful to listen to.  But again, no mandos :-(

----------


## Beanzy

Sounds like there's a gap in the market there.
Could be your seat they're keeping for you.

----------


## AnneFlies

Oh, I forgot, there was also a cellist there.  About half these folks are pros, some are graduates from a music school, all play way better than me.  I really enjoy listening to them while I'm trying to get the rhythm right.  Afterwards, I go home and play while the spirit is still with me.  

My seat on the sidelines always has a nice cold beer next to it.

----------


## Loretta Callahan

Went to my first session in Portland since I moved away some six years ago.  It was the first session where there wasn't one guitar.  An accordion, 3 fiddles, banjo, two mandolins/bouzouki, penny whistles, bodhran and uilleann pipes (amazing).  Folks were very friendly and welcoming.  It was encouraging to realize I knew about a third of the tunes. 

 I'm showing up with my mandolin next time I go.  All they can do is throw me out, right?

----------


## Bertram Henze

Some sessions have an unknown group of developing musicians who look like audience. Only yesterday I have met an astounding number of these. AnneFlies and Loretta here are more examples for this growing category.

Musicians, beware! The rule that flubs and mistakes don't matter because "those muggles can't hear them anyway" does not hold under such circumstances. We are being watched, aurally. The very strangers we wouldn't have given the time of day yesterday might come back tomorrow with instruments and blow us out of the water.

----------


## bruce.b

>>For sure different sessions are run differently. Here is an example of a success - Dempsey's in Manhattan. You will see rank beginners sitting together with musicians like Tony Demarco and Brian Conway. Anyone with a desire to play this music is invited. The first two hours (8-10pm) are run by going around the circle, making sure everyone can start a tune. After 10pm it turns into an open session where confidence and skill matter more. Why do I say that it's a success? Because the place is packed every time. Because it's the longest running session in NY and because there is now a full-length documentary film about it which you can check out here
<<

   It's ironic that in a thread about session etiquette a link to the Dempsey's video is posted. The trailer prominently shows an *english concertina* player, not the accepted anglo.This may not seem like a big deal to mandolin players but there have been long angry threads (on cencertina.net for one) that had to be closed on just this topic of english concertina being used for Irish trad. Many anglo players claim that you cannot properly play Irish trad on an english. As an former english player it seemed to me that the english was made for Irish trad and I knew plenty of people who played it well on the instrument, yet many people (almost always anglo concertina players) objected as you don't sound exactly like an anglo. Anyway, nice to see it didn't seem to be a problem here.

  I hope tenor guitar doesn't also cause the same reaction. I'm guessing it shouldn't be in most Irish and old time, but might be in BG.

----------


## Avi Ziv

Bruce - you were quoting me there and I was the one who posted the link to the Dempsey's movie. In most of the sessions I know, the musical and personal attitude takes priority over the specific instrument used. Tenor guitars would present no problem at all if played  with sensitivity and high regard towards the music. Don Meade plays one in NY sessions. Angelina Carberry plays and records on one, and so does John Carty. Not a problem.

Here is a more extreme example - one of our dear musician friends is a clarinet player with the NJ Symphony. A remarkable musician and great fun at the session. He plays whistles in sessions but occasionally brings his clarinet along. What reaction do you think this should invoke? Well - we stayed for a session after a Tommy Peoples concert one time. Andy pulled out the clarinet and played a tune on it. Tommy was standing on the side and I heard him lean over to a friend and say (with admiration) : "now THERE's a musician!".  I've played in session with one or two fiddlers whom I thought should not have been there.  It's all about the music and attitude. The instrument is a vehicle to sound your voice. My opinion of course.

----------


## foldedpath

> I hope tenor guitar doesn't also cause the same reaction. I'm guessing it shouldn't be in most Irish and old time, but might be in BG.


Tenor guitar wouldn't be a problem in any of the sessions around here, as long as the guitarist is playing the tunes. It fits in a nice range of pitch and timbre, similar to a tenor banjo. Playing chordal backup might not work so well, especially if there is already another backer like a guitarist or bouzouki/OM player. Every session has its own take on how many backers are welcome, while most sessions will welcome any number of melody players. 

A friendly personality and knowledge of the music usually trumps choice of "proper" instrument, in my experience. At least until you get into the really obnoxious ones like bones and spoons.
 :Smile:

----------


## Jill McAuley

> Here is a more extreme example - one of our dear musician friends is a clarinet player with the NJ Symphony. A remarkable musician and great fun at the session. He plays whistles in sessions but occasionally brings his clarinet along. What reaction do you think this should invoke? Well - we stayed for a session after a Tommy Peoples concert one time. Andy pulled out the clarinet and played a tune on it. Tommy was standing on the side and I heard him lean over to a friend and say (with admiration) : "now THERE's a musician!".  I've played in session with one or two fiddlers whom I thought should not have been there.  It's all about the music and attitude. The instrument is a vehicle to sound your voice. My opinion of course.


And both At the Racket and Shaskeen feature saxophone players!

Cheers,
Jill

----------


## mikeyes

I was at a session in Dingle (at John Benny's) that had a clarinet.  Of course it was the player, not the instrument, but it fit right in.

Mike

----------


## Paul Kotapish

> Here is a more extreme example - one of our dear musician friends is a clarinet player . . . A remarkable musician and great fun at the session.


Might that clarinetist be the estimable Daniel Beerbohm? We toured the former Soviet Union together playing contradance music. He's a great player and someone who has put in his time listening and learning the idiomatic elements that would make the music sound right on any instrument.

----------


## Avi Ziv

Paul  - Sorry but it's not Beedbohm. I was talking about Andy Lamy of the NJ Symphony, Halcyon Trio and other projects

----------


## Paul Kotapish

Avi--it's a full-blown invasion of jig-playing clarinetists, then. Daniel B., Andy L., and let's not forget Bill Tomczak, currently suspended in Boulder, I think. Oh, and Mark Graham, up on Vashon Island, late of Kevin Burke's Open House, who can also blow the roof off with his diatonic and chromatic harmonica versions of pretty much any tune he hears. The harmonica is still a bit of an "outsider" instrument in ITM, but way more common than clarinet, and Brendan Powers pretty much silenced any carping about its appropriateness to the idiom.

In the end, it's all about the player and not about the instrument, isn't it?

----------


## Loretta Callahan

Developing is the key word here, Mr. Henze.  :Wink:  And I really can't hear the flubs at all.  What really gets my butter churning is when that magic happens during a tune and everyone is together and on.  Nothin' like it!

JeffD kept encouraging me to play with folks, even tho' I'm still a rank beginner.  I'm starting to get it.  You can only stare at yourself on Skype or whatever for so long.

I figure my mandolin won't be loud and I'll sit in the back and keep my head low; ready to duck in the event of a flying Guinness or something.




> Some sessions have an unknown group of developing musicians who look like audience. Only yesterday I have met an astounding number of these. AnneFlies and Loretta here are more examples for this growing category.
> 
> Musicians, beware! The rule that flubs and mistakes don't matter because "those muggles can't hear them anyway" does not hold under such circumstances. We are being watched, aurally. The very strangers we wouldn't have given the time of day yesterday might come back tomorrow with instruments and blow us out of the water.

----------


## Avi Ziv

> In the end, it's all about the player and not about the instrument, isn't it?


Absolutely!

----------


## John McGann

> And both At the Racket and Shaskeen feature saxophone players!
> 
> Cheers,
> Jill


In the late '40's- early '50's glory days of the Irish dance hall scene in Boston (in which my pal, legendary accordionist Joe Derrane, was central), most bands had multiple horn players. 

Contrary to what we'd think from today's session scene, they only played jigs and reels about 25-30% of the time- the rest of the night was more standard pop/swing/dance music. It was a HUGE happening, with four large dance halls on the same block.
Here's a great book about the scene.

----------


## Dagger Gordon

Also true in Scotland, John.

One of the top bands was the Cavendish Band, actually led by a clarinet player called Andrew Bathgate.  They played a lot of society balls, where 'reeling' dances would be the norm.  These dances would be things like The Duke of Perth and Hamilton House - set dances rather than couple dances such as The Highland Schottische.  

However, in between the Scottish country dances you would get dances like the foxtrot.  These Scottish dances are pretty energetic and can last a long time, so the foxtrots and waltzes etc would in part offer the dancers a chance to get their breath back and have a drink.  They were also a chance for the clarinet to feature in less Scottish, perhaps swing music.

----------


## AnneFlies

Last night's session at Conor O'Neill's was just like the last ones:  terrific!  A lot of very talented youngsters were there, and two  sisters (about 10-12 years old) danced for us.  One lady with a harp "just happened to stop by," two banjos, keyboard, flute, tin whistle, accordian, bodhran, and lots of fiddles.  As far as I can tell, there are at least three families involved, mom & dad & kids, all playing, and all delightful to listen to.

----------


## Charlieshafer

Harps; I wish more of them would "stop by." The tone is lovely. I really love the Poozies use of two electro-harps at times, and the Bumblebees (Sharon Shannon's sister's group) uses one and it's just perfect.

----------


## Steve L

Harps in a session are not always so wonderful, but are lovely in arranged performances.

----------


## AnneFlies

I wasn't so sure about the harp when it showed up, but this woman played wonderfully and did not overwhelm the rest of the group.  Which, with all those fiddles, accordian, banjos, keyboard, electric bass, etc., would have been very hard to do.  She had a light, gentle touch, and I think she had played with this group before.  I think it's more about the musician than the instrument.

----------


## michaelpthompson

I've played with harpists a couple of times and it is a joy when done right. Same as any instrument I guess.

----------


## CES

> Developing is the key word here, Mr. Henze.  And I really can't hear the flubs at all.  What really gets my butter churning is when that magic happens during a tune and everyone is together and on.  Nothin' like it!
> 
> JeffD kept encouraging me to play with folks, even tho' I'm still a rank beginner.  I'm starting to get it.  You can only stare at yourself on Skype or whatever for so long.
> 
> I figure my mandolin won't be loud and I'll sit in the back and keep my head low; ready to duck in the event of a flying Guinness or something.


You don't duck!!! Catch that sucker and drink up!! (Unless you have issues with such beverages, in which case you catch it and pass it to the left  :Smile:  )

And, I totally agree that playing with others is the best motivation to improve I've found yet...and the most fun!

----------


## chriss

> I think it's more about the musician than the instrument.


Haha!  We keep coming back around to that on this thread and so many others.  The musicianship matters a lot.  And so does the basic personality.  A person who's aiming + committed to make a contribution to group music pretty much will be able to do that, assuming some workable knowledge of the music and their instrument.  

Glad it was a good session.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> ...And, I totally agree that playing with others is the best motivation to improve I've found yet...and the most fun!


Yep, that applies for many things in life, and indeed for life itself.

----------


## Loretta Callahan

It is definitely the musician.  A good musician can make a lesser instrument sound good.  The uilleann pipe player was really amazing at the session I attended.  Incredibly soulful and connected to all the tunes in a way that wove everything together.  That drone always gets me, in a good way.

Lol, CES ... maybe I'd better practice some Guinness catching along with those reels.

----------


## AnneFlies

Last night at Conor O'Neill's I saw a master session leader.  There was a new guy who came in and decided the group was there to back him up, a guy who had no clue how well this group sounds together.  He was singing at the top of his voice, stomping so loud the floor shook, and banging on a chair seat like a drum.  Most of the regulars just looked at him, and a few just sat out his tunes.  The session leader finally said something so quietly I couldn't even hear, and the new guy immediately calmed down.  IMHO, that's the right way to do it.

Keyboard, harp, accordian, guitar, tenor banjo, 2 tin whistles, flute, and a bunch of fiddles.  All blending together to make beautiful music!  But again, no mandolins  :Frown:   (not that you could hear one anyway).

----------


## Bertram Henze

> ...The session leader finally said something so quietly I couldn't even hear, and the new guy immediately calmed down.  IMHO, that's the right way to do it.


You need some Jedi training to do that, but yes, it is very efficient  :Smile: 
"...this is not the session you're looking for"  :Cool:

----------


## JeffD

> Also true in Scotland, John.
> 
> .


Back in the 80s this one summer I was playing at Sandy Bell's in Edinburg. Fiddle tunes and a ballad or two, and then this wierd modern song that everone seemed to know, that ended with all the musicians stopping and singing acapella and ending with a shout. And then tons of laughter. I never distinctly got the words.

Later that evening I asked around what it was but I never got a clear answer. It sounded most like a jingle from a television commercial, perhaps some kind of sports team song. Great fun what ever it was.

----------


## JeffD

> He was singing at the top of his voice, stomping so loud the floor shook, and banging on a chair seat like a drum.  Most of the regulars just looked at him, and a few just sat out his tunes.  The session leader finally said something so quietly I couldn't even hear, and the new guy immediately calmed down.  IMHO, that's the right way to do it..


The session leader is also the keeper of the negatives!  :Wink: 


That phrase doesn't mean anything anymore with digital photography and all.  Darn.

----------


## Bertram Henze

There's always someone who has some trans-pogueish concept what Irish music is supposed to be...



But we do not have to endure it. People are entitled to reality.

----------


## Loretta Callahan

The Portland session seems very dialed in and friendly.  Nobody gets out of whack or overbearing. I remember sessions I won't name where one person dominated almost every song ... and the music didn't flow well a good part of the time.  Clearly these are advanced folks, but they are very inviting for beginners like me.  Still, only one guitar.  I counted 7, I think, fiddles, uilleann pipes, accordian, 3 bodhrans, 3 penny whistles and spoons. No banjos this time.

 Of course, wouldn't you know it .... the first time I went I knew about a third of the tunes, but I didn't bring the mandolin.  This time, I kind of almost knew one ... so I looked like my mandolin was some kind of accessory.  :Redface: 

Folks had recording devices, and one fiddler suggested I bring one; so I am.  That may help me figure what are the most common tunes so I can learn them.

----------


## AnneFlies

I thought I could just ask the name of a tune, and then look it up, but every time I ask I get a stunned look.  "I don't know that it has a name," or, "I think it's (XXX), oh wait, maybe it's (YYY), well, I really don't know."  Sometimes the tune doesn't have a name, or sometimes it has three names.  Frustrating, but funny.

----------


## Loretta Callahan

Haha, exactly, Anne.  Plus, I don't like to constantly ask questions.  Since it's ok to record (always good to make sure) .... I'll find the tunes myself ... or learn them by ear.  Sometimes I can't remember the name, or if I know the name forgot how the tune starts.




> I thought I could just ask the name of a tune, and then look it up, but every time I ask I get a stunned look.  "I don't know that it has a name," or, "I think it's (XXX), oh wait, maybe it's (YYY), well, I really don't know."  Sometimes the tune doesn't have a name, or sometimes it has three names.  Frustrating, but funny.

----------

