# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  Elderly Beginning Mandolin Outfit

## multidon

I have, for some years now, recommended this as the best choice for a beginner who needs everything. It included the very impressive Kentucky KM-150 with the excellent Accss Stage One gig bag, and a bunch of accessories. Basically, they priced it for the mandolin and case and we're throwing in the picks, tuner, book, etc. for free. It was great bang for the buck in my opinion.

Now, a couple of days ago I noticed they have changed the kit. It's price is lower, and they now use the Loar "Honey Creek" instead of the Kentucky. The Kentucky was (and still is) all solid carved wood, while the "Honey Creek" is solid top with laminated sides and back. I have played both (well. I played the F style version of the Loar, not the A, but I would expect the tone to be similar). There is just no comparison whatsoever! Every Kentucky 150 I've played has had great tone that belies its price. The Loar with laminate body, on the other hands, sounds and plays like a brick with strings.

Now, I know that "The Loar" has its fans on our forum. Not trying to dis them at all. I'm just saying these laminated examples are miserable, not all Loars. And also to be fair I have been equally unimpressed with laminated mandolins from other makers. 

I want to officially state, for the record so to speak, that I can no longer recommend this outfit. I wanted to be clear on this because I have recommended it so often in the past.

----------

Mandolin Cafe, 

Paul Statman, 

red7flag

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

Thanks for your honest assessment, Don. 

I'd like to weigh in on this discussion at some point with observations from the Winter NAMM Show earlier this year but will wait to hear other opinions. Things have changed at The Loar, greatly so of late, in measurable ways. In my professional opinion it is not the same company it was just a few years ago. That doesn't mean they might not offer a product some will purchase and enjoy. It's not only about pricing, it's about if they can still offer a product that can stand up in the marketplace. And, of course, my opinion is just one, but the new attitude and approach is somewhat startling. Staff changes and a clearly visible business approach have resulted in a bluntly different kind of organization.

----------

allenhopkins, 

multidon, 

Paul Statman, 

red7flag

----------


## Jstring

That's a shame- nothing turns off new musicians like a "brick with strings!". I haven't played a The Loar Honey Creek, but Don is a reliable source, and I've never played a bad KM 150...

Anyway: if you search for a km 150, they are listed as "out of stock" just about everywhere- Amazon, Elderly, Musician's Friend, Mandolin Store, and Folk Musician.

Perhaps this contributed to Elderly's decision.

----------

Charlie Bernstein, 

Nevin

----------


## red7flag

> I'd like to weigh in on this discussion at some point with observations from the Winter NAMM Show earlier this year but will wait to hear other opinions. Things have changed at The Loar, greatly so of late... Staff changes and a clearly visible business approach have resulted in a bluntly different kind of organization.


Scott I appreciate your opinion.  Do the changes you see reflect on the the making of the instruments or the marketing of the instruments.?  I know you maybe walking a fine line with confidences.

----------


## CES

Sorry to hear at least the implications that The Loar is having difficulty/changing their approach. I was a fan of their earlier models, and preferred their neck profile to the Kentuckys of that period. Seems things have shifted a bit  :Frown: .

Thanks for the update, Don, as I've recommended that pack often as well.

----------


## fatt-dad

I also read the description and think by the description that the top may also be laminate.

It's a retail package for starters and if setup, may be just the thing to learn on?  I mean, I don't know. . .

I'd likely spend $300 bucks on a used KM250 though.

f-d

----------


## allenhopkins

If dealers are having trouble getting KM-150's, and they want to keep selling "starter kits" to beginners, they'll have to substitute another mandolin.  If the Loar Honey Creek is available, in a price range that's close, it's an opportunity to make the switch.  But the buyer may not be getting the same quality, as Don seems to think true.

*NOW, I'M NOT, REPEAT, NOT BRINGING "POLITICS" INTO THIS DISCUSSION.  NOT DOIN' IT!!!*  But, remember that almost all our basic to mid-range instruments are now imported from Asia.  And trade with Asian countries is a subject that's being publicly discussed, frequently, with unknown implications for the immediate future.

Our little band of mandolin enthusiasts -- and purchasers -- should keep an eye on those discussions.  *Not to take sides,* make political points, or otherwise transgress our worthy Cafe guidelines.  However, the availability and quality of imported instruments -- whatever influences those factors, be it changes in manufacturer practices, government policies, exchange rates, the dangers of shipping things across the Pacific -- is going to affect what mandolins are made, imported, priced, and available for purchase.

Hope I stayed "inside the lines," Scott; it's a subject that I've thought about quite a bit.  We're in what I consider a "golden age" -- well, at least silver -- of mandolin quality and availability, compared to when I started out 45 years ago.  I would have loved to have access in 1970, to the variety and prices of instruments form which we can select.  Hasn't always been this way, and may not be this way in the future.

----------

Paul Statman

----------


## dhergert

Similarly in deference to the Cafe' guidelines, I'll just briefly mention that the new CITES rosewood regulations may also have something to do with USA-bound Asian Rim instrument delays.  We've already seen this with some instrument imports.

----------

allenhopkins

----------


## Folkmusician.com

> if you search for a km 150, they are listed as "out of stock" just about everywhere- Amazon, Elderly, Musician's Friend, Mandolin Store, and Folk Musician.


KM-150's have been back-ordered for a LONG time, as in months. A new container just arrived at Saga, and a limited number of 150s should hit dealers this week.

There are several things going on in the industry right now. Nothing new really, but some of these issues are reaching a head. Allen mentions one of the broad problems that is at work. Then there are also instrument specific issues. The number one factor being the new CITES regs.  We are not discussing this as much since it has been a while since it was announced.  It is still causing major issues though. 

There are other things in play that I won't elaborate on too much, but we all know that the best products (from the consumers standpoint) are not necessarily the ones that do well or are a good decision for dealers.

----------

allenhopkins, 

dhergert, 

multidon

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

My observations and the changes the company made have virtually nothing to do with regulation and politics. It has all to do with economic business decisions that were stated to me face-to-face in person in a business meeting and input from several that used to be employed by the company. 

Is it really important? Maybe not. They're welcome to steer the business any way they wish. I just think the choices they've made no longer have the best interests of consumers and if and when I decide to share what I know I will but as I already stated I'd like to see what others think. So far, fairly predictable. The three posts above this one may have a bit of merit in some areas, though not much in my opinion, and do not  contribute whatsoever to the changes at hand. What I witnessed and was told face-to-face were clear business decisions anyone can make regardless of policy.

----------

allenhopkins, 

Clement Barrera-Ng

----------


## Br1ck

As a business, any business, grows, it becomes necessary to increase production and sales in order to feed the ongoing and increasing expenses in infrastructure, marketing and distribution. Heaven forbid if they are publicly traded and need to fuel stock prices too. Current business practices almost universally, and this is taught at the major universities, hold that with proper structure, productivity software, etc., a position, any position, can be filled by anyone. I saw this as my friends who worked very happily at Stanford University saw their workplace go from exceptional to depressing. One friend got a department head with an MBA and no understanding at all of the highly technical nature of the operation. This was not unusual. They were very good at counting beans though.

So it should come as no surprise that the people making the decisions in the instrument business have no emotional attachment to the end product, and that bottom line economics take over. It is almost a necessity.

Elderly needs product to sell. Someone will fill the need. If they don't have an entry product to sell, someone else will gain their loyalty and sell that Gibson in a few years. I'd venture the cafe's membership is in the top 5% of emotionally passionate consumers. The other 95% is where the money is

I'm a dinosaur who thinks the Martin logo should not be on anything but the 15 series and up, but Taylor was eating their lunch, so we have Formica guitars that are Martin's.

----------


## red7flag

When I looked at their site, the Deal 4, with the KM-150 is still up, but states that more KM-150s will be arriving shortly and priced at $395.00.  The Deal 8, is with The Loar and set at $305.00.

----------

multidon

----------


## Mandobar

The Chinese factories have faced continual change.  From what I have been reading many manufacturing companies in China were forced to move out into the provinces and train new staff due to increased wage and labor costs.  What we don't see on the news are the wildcat strikes, workers demanding better working conditions, healthcare, etc.  I can't see how quality could remain the same with all this going on.

----------


## CES

I meant insinuations, not implications, earlier, though there will clearly be (potentially ominous) implications if the insinuations are true and irreversible...

----------


## multidon

I stand corrected. It seems that Elderly will keep offering the Kentucky version of the kit, when they get more, at 395. That kit is SO worth the difference. 305 versus 395? The KM 150 would eat the Honey Creek's lunch. And dinner.

----------

allenhopkins

----------


## Charlie Bernstein

> That's a shame- nothing turns off new musicians like a "brick with strings!". . . .


Actually, I was so turned on by my first mando, a brick with strings (a used Fender FM-52e I got for $50), that I was inspired to get something playable.

Same with my first guitar, back in '68, a bottom-of-the-line Goya classical my parents bought, thinking it would slake my blues thirst. Ha! It just inspired me to find something playable - with steel strings and a neck I could get my hand around.

----------

red7flag

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

For about 6-7 years The Loar had what most thought was one of the very best marketing presences on the internet for a guitar/mandolin/banjo manufacturer not the size of a Martin, Fender, Taylor, Gibson, etc. That included a very robust social media presence. Guy was brilliant (my opinion). They did a great job of taking a new modern product with a quirky name that didn't exactly win everyone over and made it very successful. They were widely discussed on the web.

The past few years before the main marketing/advertising guy left, people I knew internally said the environment and direction had become toxic. But lots of jobs have this issues, right? They pay employees so their job isn't to make them happy, but ultimately it does have implications. It's not _the_ problem, just a symptom. Still, that's not the issue at hand.

Once this individual left for reasons unknown (we are still in contact on occasion, I didn't ask)--the Mandolin Cafe's long-term relationship also ceased--social media for the company halted. Near as we can tell, pretty much all marketing ceased. Advertisers come and go. We get it. This is not about us. The Loar still has Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube presences, but they're empty shells where pretty much everything ceased over a year ago. A dozen Facebook posts in 2017 is not a social media presence. Social media and marketing is about right now, this moment. If you aren't talking about yourself, no one else is going to. Regardless of the reason, dropping out of sight is not a marketing plan. It's a business decision.

A few months before the Winter NAMM this past January I was asked by someone internal with influence to meet the "new person." The idea being to connect us back as a business partner, or so I was told. OK, I thought. I go to the booth, handshake new guy, introduce myself and look into an empty stare, look of annoyance (NAMM can be tough but this was only Thursday). I explained the long-term relationship with the company and to see if there was anything going forward. Out came this: "Our priorities are amazon.com number 1, Guitar Center number 2. Once those commitments are filled, we shovel what's left out to mom and pop (derogatory reference to retailers). We have no use or need for advertising" shrugged, no change in expression. I shook my head, straightened up a tad if I recall, stood up and said, "OK, I won't waste any more of your time," and walked away. Shortest meeting in NAMM history for me. 

Rudeness aside, which I found amusing and jarring, I can't imagine treating someone you've never met at a NAMM Show in that fashion. Just to reiterate, this is not about us. It's the face of a business making musical instruments. Greater symptom: it confirmed what I'd been hearing and seeing from the employees for an extended period and what I saw in their newest offerings.  We get there's a market for very low priced, entry level instruments, and there needs to be, but there's a line here and their newest and lowest priced product has crossed it as far as we're concerned. As is the general attitude of the people working there. When amazon and Guitar Center are your business, how much scrutiny is exercised in the quality of the instruments sold? Who does the setup, who is your contact? I talk to more than a few retailers so this isn't about one experience. It's about a company with little passion and care for their customers. Talk to retailers and ask them what percentage of entry level instruments for that sub $500 market get returned because their condition is simply unacceptable. Take the money and run. There's a market there so ditch promotion and growth.

Music for 99.9% of the public is about joy, about fun, about communion with others and shared time. It's not always about the quality and the bling of the instrument, but there really is a point where you're just selling whatever term you wish to use: firewood, etc. With marketing you create an environment in part where people can identify with you. People want to feel good and excited about products they purchase and own. So when I use a term that a company has lost its way like I did on the home page, I don't see this as politics, regulation and other reasons that get bantered about that everyone else in the same businesses face. I don't get that from any other manufacturer at the moment in the mandolin world so saying that's the reason is an excuse. They have a management problem. Can't imagine working for a company and seeing it able to generate a price worthy product in this kind of environment. 

There's so much more behind this story but that's enough and there are some things I'm just not going to say. Not my job, none of my business, but I do applaud the opening post. As a business that promotes things that are all about music and joy, this company's story in my mind is sad and nothing more.

----------

allenhopkins, 

JEStanek, 

Jill McAuley, 

markophonic, 

Ryk Loske, 

trodgers

----------


## colorado_al

I think that The Loar was trying, and failing, to beat Eastman and Kentucky at the $600-$1000 mandolin level. Some of their models were good, others not so much. They switched gears and are now trying to beat Michael Kelley, Epiphone, Fender, Morgan Monroe, Ibanez, Washburn, Gold Tone, etc in the sub $500 mandolin level. I don't see that working out for them. Too much competition in the "Mandolin-Shaped-Object" category. As stated above, Kentucky boxes them in at $350 with the KM150. Eastman at $470 with the MD305. The rest of the $300 and lower instrument makers have models that are indistinguishable to the novice mandolin buyer who at that point is buying on price, not a name or specs, or whatever might be written at this site. If those buyers pick up a bad instrument from The Loar and then play a good one sometime later from another brand (Kentucky, Eastman, or better), surely they will not be buying up the line of the same brand they originally purchased. That makes it very hard to get any repeat business. If they are looking for one time sales, then $300 might do it. Hard to build a business on one off sales on low margin product.

It certainly is hard to work for a company that is making good products at a competitive price that then switches gears to compete only on price. It makes it very hard for people who work there to believe in the product they are making and selling. Without that belief, work turns to drudgery, not a job one can take pride in.

----------


## mugbucket

Wow.

Makes me wonder why they even bothered to have a booth at NAMM...

----------


## Br1ck

It would be very interesting to know the actual units shipped to online big box retailers vs. the mom and pop stores. It would probably tell you all you need to know about modern business practices.

It is also probable that making one sale based on price to an uninformed consumer is good business, and pretty much ignoring a market segment in lieu of the guitar market is also good business. As I stated above, modern business practices hold that there is no difference or advantage to one body over another if your system is working as planned. Emotion has nothing to do with it. Pride in product has nothing to do with it. Money is the only benchmark applicable. If the current management shows bottom line improvement, they stay, if not, they go.

----------


## NursingDaBlues

During the mid-1970s, I was a Product Manager for a consumer products division of a Fortune 500 company. One memorable heated discussion with the VP of Marketing involved my pointing out the shortcomings and the need to modify a product that was starting down the production line. The VP quickly cut me off with the statement, "If you remember anything, remember this: Products are meant to be sold, not used. Your number one loyalty is to the stockholder, not to the customer."

----------


## allenhopkins

Couple things:

1.  What Scott describes sounds like a single-data-point encounter, that indicates a change in company practices and policies that is also indicated by changes in the Loar product line, and in their marketing presence.  This could possibly be based on the company's experience in the market -- lower-end models selling, higher-end models not so much, mass retailers (Amazon, Musician's Friend, Guitar Center) providing the overwhelming share of sales, production expense for hand-work increasing as the overall Chinese wage scale rises.  It could also result from a (possibly misplaced) decision that selling lots of low-end instruments through outlets that do all the promotion and marketing for the company, will produce more revenue than selling better-made instruments to more selective buyers, if such sales require targeted advertising and a responsive social network presence -- even if the higher-end models provide a higher profit per unit, and, by their quality, create a market among more advanced musicians, whose recommendations of Loar mandolins may well produce more sales of quality instruments.

2.  This isn't the first time that a promising initiative has led to disappointment.  Many of us remember Fender's Fullerton mandolins from about a decade ago -- decently-made mid-price instruments that delivered value for their prices, and were discontinued after a short time.  And we've suffered through the vagaries of Gibson's changes in marketing strategies: reduction in dealerships, model changes that seemed counterproductive (at least from the mandolinist's point of view), etc.  

3.  I still think that there may be more problems ahead, due to changes in the overall foreign-trade climate, but will try not to borrow trouble -- until such point that something more definite is developing.

----------


## multidon

The shift at The Loar seems to coincide with a shift at Guitar Center as well. There are still a plethora of mandolins you can order on their website, but recent visits to several stores in their chain have revealed only ONE mandolin in actual stock, The Loar 310F. This is the F style version of the "Honey Creek". I thought it strange because even though Guitar Center is not known as a mandolin Mecca, you could usually count on finding a few different Ibanez, Mitchell, Rogue, and Fender examples. That's all gone now. It would appear from my observations that somehow GC has been convinced to carry only this one model at their storefronts. The first time I saw one I picked it up, and of course it's weight told me it was laminate. I tried to play it, but it wasn't tuned. Not even close. So I did them a favor and tuned it properly. The action as too high, the intonation was off, and the strings were actually rusty! And they put this instrument out hoping a customer would buy it? After doing their job for them and getting it playable, I was rewarded by that famous brick with strings sound. A couple of trips to some different GCs showed they also carried the same lone model. No doubt, hat ubiquitous animal known as "marketing research" has again reared its ugly head, telling both The Loar and Guitar Center that most people who think about buying a mandolin would actually buy one if they could find an F style without paying more than 300 dollars. And that, sadly, is probably true. Give the people what they want, and how can you fail?

Scott's report is hardly surprising. This is what happens when bean counters run music companies.

----------


## Br1ck

I'm sure I could run a company into the ground making a product I was proud of.

----------


## Louise NM

This is a sad read, on a few levels.

I had not thought about what a trade war with China would do to the instrument market. While there are some truly dire instruments coming out of China, the best Chinese-made ones can hold their own against instruments from anywhere else, at a fraction of the price. I have purchased a startling number of Chinese violins, violas, and cellos over the years, keeping growing kids supplied. It seems like all workshop instruments are now Chinese, including the ones that are shipped to Europe or the States in the white and finished (and labeled) there. Disruptions in the supply chain would be devastating.

Being a little less familiar with mandolins, it still seems like Chinese instruments are the go-to for most beginners, whether they are buying "bricks with strings" or the perfectly playableif a bit more expensiveEastmans and their equivalents. When talking about new instruments (used is another whole discussion), is there much made in the US for less than 2K?

The other subject in this thread I find depressing is the pervasiveness of Guitar Center, and their attitude towards profit over service. The musical instrument business still has an awful lot of Mom and Pop places. The small city where I live has three guitar shops, which also carry a smattering of mandolins and banjos, along with a swarm of ukuleles in hideous colors. There's also a bowed instrument shop. All are owned by locals, all are run for love as much as for profit. If The Loar is being forced by Guitar Center's demand to make crummy instruments at a rock-bottom price, the local shops can no longer get the better Loars, cutting into their sales, profitability, and ability to keep the doors open. It's a classic race to the bottom.

----------


## Ron McMillan

Since I have no reason to doubt anything that Scott says, I'd anticipate the disappearance of the brand before too long. There are plenty of fine instruments coming out of Asia from other companies, and when standards drop, the customer becomes virtually irrelevant and the market is treated with contempt, the writing is on the wall.

----------


## pheffernan

> When talking about new instruments (used is another whole discussion), is there much made in the US for less than 2K?


The underutilized flattop: https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/115477#115477

----------


## Austin Bob

A very common question to the forum is from a new member asking what mandolin to buy in a specific price range. My response is always the same: call one of the sponsors of the site and ask for recommendations. Why, because things change. Last years model may not be available, or maybe there's a new shipment from another company that is a better deal. Or, as in the case with The Loar, the instrument has changed to where it's no longer a good purchase.

Things change in the music industry at fairly regular pace. This issue above the The Loar models has been repeated by other manufactures, and at many different price points, and is not a surprise to me, but it's still good to bring this to light so that other members will know of the changes at TL company.

----------


## fatt-dad

There are, "Aria Pro II" mandolins that are great!  I mean hand carved, solid wood, structurally stable.  I had one - a PM 780.  It was so great, I bought another Pro II.  It was not from the same family.

So, to Austin Bob's point, things seem to change in manufacturing, branding, etc.

Interesting thread!

f-d

----------


## Austin Bob

> During the mid-1970s, I was a Product Manager for a consumer products division of a Fortune 500 company. One memorable heated discussion with the VP of Marketing involved my pointing out the shortcomings and the need to modify a product that was starting down the production line. The VP quickly cut me off with the statement, "If you remember anything, remember this: Products are meant to be sold, not used. Your number one loyalty is to the stockholder, not to the customer."


One of the best talks by a Senior VP that I've ever heard was to say that a good company should look at employees, customers, and stockholders as equal sides of a triangle. If one side gets too much, or too little focus, the other sides will suffer, and that can put the company in jeopardy. Made much more business sense to me than you're VP's statement.

----------

NursingDaBlues, 

red7flag

----------


## Folkmusician.com

> It would be very interesting to know the actual units shipped to online big box retailers vs. the mom and pop stores. It would probably tell you all you need to know about modern business practices.


I have a lot of these numbers and I can tell you, it is staggering.  At least a couple of years back, Guitar Center/Musicians Friend), had a 32% market share in the industry. As scary as this sounds, I have numbers from several people that are in charge of the Amazon accounts. I am told that Amazon accounts for right around 50% of all their business. This swings toward things other than mandolins and holds especially true of things like cases and accessories where Amazon excels. They are doing strong numbers in low to mid-tier mandolins as well. Don't think it ends there. One brand has been selling directly to Walmart as well.

I can see where a company would have to take this into account. The 80/20 rule to the extreme.  Why service thousands of dealers, when 5 dealers can move the bulk of units?  This is industry wide now.  I don't like it, but I am not blind either. 

I do want to say that not every mid-tier brand is abandoning their smaller dealers. Eastman has not jumped on the big box bandwagon. They are the only one that I am aware of. Thank you Eastman! 

This is all happening in the lower price points. As we move up the rungs, this business model doesn't work and we see specialty shops still dominating. But can these specialty shops afford to lose the sales at the lower price points? I believe some can. We have some amazing shops that are very strong and should continue to do well.

----------

red7flag

----------


## Caleb

Interesting thread and topic for sure.  

I have often wondered how many would-be mandolin players quit after getting an unplayable instrument out of the box from Amazon (kind of like those awful Esteban guitars from the infomercial back in the day).   

When I think of all the hours of pure and simple joy that playing the mandolin has brought me, it makes me sad for those who had high hopes and got a bum deal.  It seems to me that the bottom line of making instruments should be about helping others make music.  Naïve, I suppose.  I know the bills have to be paid, etc., but still.  

And @Robert Fear, good on Eastman for holding the line!

----------


## gtani7

I don't have much to add to the thread, I've never been a huge fan of The Loar mandos (owned on lm300) but purchased 3 RK banjo's imported by Music Link's sister company, which have been ok to great.

BUT: I noticed recently there's an ebay seller selling The Loar and RK second quality product, which may or may not be a negative.  Eastman never does this, as far as i can tell, Saga doesn't, Gold Tone does this on banjo classifieds.  The RK (Recording king) listings which are for entry level thru $1.5k new instruments, all seem to describe rim delam which i don't see in the photos.

----------


## gtani7

and i have to say, once again, the Cafe is an amazing resource in the instrument world for getting the most value for your dollar and getting up and running on a wonderful but pretty tricky to play instrument.  (I follow a lot of forums/newsgroups for keys/synth, woodwinds, strings, electronics/recording tech and other, i think i'm pretty knowledgeable about music forums)

Thanks to the mods and all responsible!




> Interesting thread and topic for sure.  
> 
> I have often wondered how many would-be mandolin players quit after getting an unplayable instrument out of the box from Amazon (kind of like those awful Esteban guitars from the infomercial back in the day).   
> 
> When I think of all the hours of pure and simple joy that playing the mandolin has brought me, it makes me sad for those who had high hopes and got a bum deal.  It seems to me that the bottom line of making instruments should be about helping others make music.  Naïve, I suppose.  I know the bills have to be paid, etc., but still.  
> 
> And @Robert Fear, good on Eastman for holding the line!

----------


## colorado_al

> and i have to say, once again, the Cafe is an amazing resource in the instrument world for getting the most value for your dollar and getting up and running on a wonderful but pretty tricky to play instrument.  (I follow a lot of forums/newsgroups for keys/synth, woodwinds, strings, electronics/recording tech and other, i think i'm pretty knowledgeable about music forums)
> 
> Thanks to the mods and all responsible!


Saga does sell 2nds or repaired instruments on ebay and reverb dispatched out of their San Francisco location. They can be quite a good deal if you know what you're looking for and have some ability to do your own setup. It is a crapshoot however. 1 mandolin I bought from Saga had the most severe neck bend at the body that I've seen in a long time. Luckily, they took it back no questions asked.

----------


## Cornfield

> During the mid-1970s, I was a Product Manager for a consumer products division of a Fortune 500 company. One memorable heated discussion with the VP of Marketing involved my pointing out the shortcomings and the need to modify a product that was starting down the production line. The VP quickly cut me off with the statement, "If you remember anything, remember this: Products are meant to be sold, not used. Your number one loyalty is to the stockholder, not to the customer."


That is so wrong on so many levels. I have sold new and used cars, and have worked for some first class a-holes. Nevwer any as bad as the VP you mentioned.
When I eventually founded my own businesses, I always stressed that our clients needs justified our existence.

----------


## JamieJ

It seems likely that Elderly Instruments simply wanted to offer a low cost package for beginners.  They decided to substitute a Loar "Honey Creek" for the Kentucky KM 150 to keep their costs down.  That was their decision and does not reflect poorly on Loar.  Loar makes high quality, all wood mandolins, like Kentucky, but the goal was to keep the cost of this package down.

----------


## allenhopkins

> ...there's an ebay seller selling...second quality product, which may or may not be a negative.  Eastman never does this, as far as i can tell...


Eastman will sell "B Stock" mandolins; Bernunzio had a bunch of MD315's a while ago, about $200 less than what he sold the un-blems for.  Mostly tiny finish flaws.

Tangential anecdote: when the tailpiece on my Eastman MDC805 mandocello failed, I had little luck at first in getting it replaced under warranty; Eastman's rep was willing, but the next shipment of tailpieces from China, was all for guitars -- no eight-strings.  The Eastman rep took a tailpiece of a 'cello that came in shipment, and sent it to me to replace mine, no charge.  The new MDC805 this became "B Stock," I guess, until the right tailpiece finally was shipped.

This thread covers a wide range of topics: Loar's marketing and manufacturing decisions, the tension between mass marketing cheap stuff, and niche marketing quality, the pervasive influence of Musician's Friend/Guitar Center and Amazon in squeezing both manufacturers, and small retailers.  If the day is coming (here already?) when you walk into one of the largest chain of instrument shops in the US, and find only one brand and one model of mandolin, then we have to wonder where the next cohort of learning mandolin players will find their instruments.

----------

red7flag

----------


## mugbucket

> Eastman will sell "B Stock" mandolins; Bernunzio had a bunch of MD315's a while ago, about $200 less than what he sold the un-blems for.  Mostly tiny finish flaws.
> 
> Tangential anecdote: when the tailpiece on my Eastman MDC805 mandocello failed, I had little luck at first in getting it replaced under warranty; Eastman's rep was willing, but the next shipment of tailpieces from China, was all for guitars -- no eight-strings.  The Eastman rep took a tailpiece of a 'cello that came in shipment, and sent it to me to replace mine, no charge.  The new MDC805 this became "B Stock," I guess, until the right tailpiece finally was shipped.
> 
> This thread covers a wide range of topics: Loar's marketing and manufacturing decisions, the tension between mass marketing cheap stuff, and niche marketing quality, the pervasive influence of Musician's Friend/Guitar Center and Amazon in squeezing both manufacturers, and small retailers.  If the day is coming (here already?) when you walk into one of the largest chain of instrument shops in the US, and find only one brand and one model of mandolin, then we have to wonder where the next cohort of learning mandolin players will find their instruments.


That's easy.  The MC Classifieds of course!  :Mandosmiley:

----------

allenhopkins

----------


## allenhopkins

> That's easy.  The MC Classifieds of course!...


Nice thought -- but it assumes they even _know_ there's a Mandolin Cafe.  When I think how clueless I was 47 years ago when I started trying to play mandolin -- and I was given -- *free!* -- a Gibson 'teens A-1 and a very nice bowl-back, found in my grandfather's attic when we cleaned it out, to put his house on the market after his death.

If I knew nothing about mandolin except that I saw or heard one somewhere and thought, "That's cool," and I wanted to try one -- and I walked into Guitar Center and all they had was the Crapptone Laminator, un-set-up and with rusty strings, which sounded like manure and probably smelled like it too -- I might be discouraged, and buy a ukulele instead.

And we all know where _that_ leads...

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

The collapse of the mandolin world will not occur because one single company decided to dominate the bottom of the market.

The sky is not falling.

We'll all be OK. No, really.

----------

JEStanek, 

Jill McAuley, 

Kris N

----------


## Br1ck

The sad part to me is that the Loar had become one of the recommended brands in the lower to mid priced market. This is no easy accomplishment. Although I myself could not get over the name, there are many happy owners. If their quality diminishes or does not keep up with the competition is not a good thing.

But I agree, life goes on. Quality retailers will make their own choices based on their needs to service their customers.

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> The sad part to me is that the Loar had become one of the recommended brands in the lower to mid priced market. This is no easy accomplishment. Although I myself could not get over the name, there are many happy owners. If their quality diminishes or does not keep up with the competition is not a good thing.
> 
> But I agree, life goes on. Quality retailers will make their own choices based on their needs to service their customers.


I am going to come out (I can't recall if I already have or not) as one who, yes, actually liked the name "The Loar." I had an LM 600. Got it from the Mandolin Store at a ridiculously low price (as in, I have not seen a 600 in the classifieds here at anything near that price), and it was my first real instrument. It was not perfect, but it was a _real_ instrument. At that point the company seemed to be aspiring to something. But even before this thread got started, it was clear to me that in the past few years The Loar had not put out anything better than the Lm 600 and LM 700, and had instead directed its efforts at filling out the lower end of the market. I guess the writing is now on the wall. Soon, my local kijiji ads will not only be cluttered with people trying to resell their Epiphone and Fender mandolins, but also their The Loars.

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> I have, for some years now, recommended this as the best choice for a beginner who needs everything. It included the very impressive Kentucky KM-150 with the excellent Accss Stage One gig bag, and a bunch of accessories. Basically, they priced it for the mandolin and case and we're throwing in the picks, tuner, book, etc. for free. It was great bang for the buck in my opinion.
> 
> Now, a couple of days ago I noticed they have changed the kit. It's price is lower, and they now use the Loar "Honey Creek" instead of the Kentucky. The Kentucky was (and still is) all solid carved wood, while the "Honey Creek" is solid top with laminated sides and back. I have played both (well. I played the F style version of the Loar, not the A, but I would expect the tone to be similar). There is just no comparison whatsoever! Every Kentucky 150 I've played has had great tone that belies its price. The Loar with laminate body, on the other hands, sounds and plays like a brick with strings.
> 
> Now, I know that "The Loar" has its fans on our forum. Not trying to dis them at all. I'm just saying these laminated examples are miserable, not all Loars. And also to be fair I have been equally unimpressed with laminated mandolins from other makers. 
> 
> I want to officially state, for the record so to speak, that I can no longer recommend this outfit. I wanted to be clear on this because I have recommended it so often in the past.


Not sure if it has been noted anywhere or when they reverted, but the Elderly Beginning Mandolin Outfit once again features the KM-150. 
https://www.elderly.com/products/eld...andolin-outfit

----------


## AgentKooper

Ha, I didn't realize that I was reading a three year old thread until the last post!  I've a relative newcomer to the mandolin world, only really been digging into it for the past couple years.  Interesting to read the Loar-Guitar Center connection.  The only mandolins I've ever seen in a Guitar center are Loars, and most of them were desperately out of tune.  I'm not a GC hater at all.  I like checking out whatever Gibsons, Martins, and Taylors they have in stock at a given time, and I'm looking forward to stores reopening.  But they're not doing much in the mandolin space at all.  I don't see Loars in the smaller shops around town -- the sub-$1,000 mandos there are all Eastmans and Kentuckys.

----------


## Astro

Im an elderly beginner but I didnt know about the mandolin outfit. Ive just been playing in shorts and tee shirts and sneakers. Should they all match?

----------

stevojack665

----------


## AgentKooper

> Im an elderly beginner but I didnt know about the mandolin outfit. Ive just been playing in shorts and tee shirts and sneakers. Should they all match?


I think this is what you're supposed to be wearing:

----------

Astro, 

Franc Homier Lieu, 

Louise NM, 

stevojack665

----------


## stevojack665

> I think this is what you're supposed to be wearing:


I'm feeling pretty elderly too these days. And that's exactly what I wear!

----------


## Astro

> I think this is what you're supposed to be wearing:


Makes you wonder what the advanced mandolin outfit looks like ?

----------

