# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Is anyone else watching this interesting Regal?

## Cary Fagan

An attractive instrument; I've not seen one like it.  Does it look like it has a carved top?  The back appears to be maple.

Judging by the bidding there's some interest in it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Vint...3D371570425940

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## Bill Kammerzell

> An attractive instrument; I've not seen one like it.  Does it look like it has a carved top?  The back appears to be maple.
> 
> Judging by the bidding there's some interest in it.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Vint...3D371570425940


Of late, there have been a few Regal Mandolins, popping up at EBay. Saw one the guy was asking $195.00 and had a best offer feature. This is the most attention I've seen one get.

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## Cary Fagan

Regals show up all the time but I've not seen one like this before.

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## HonketyHank

It does look nice. I'm watching, but probably not bidding.

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## Bill Kammerzell

> Regals show up all the time but I've not seen one like this before.


 Amazing. Over $625.00 with the shipping. I wouldn't have thought that.

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## MikeEdgerton

Regal is best known for their inexpensive instruments but they had the capacity and ability to build some very nice instruments. They seem to come out of the woodwork now and again. Bob Carlin's book *Regal Musical Instruments: 1895-1955* is an excellent source of information.

For posterity:

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Cary Fagan

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## Jim Garber

This similar one appeared on eBay in November of 2013:

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Cary Fagan

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## brunello97

Thanks, Jim. 

Unless the photos are distorted the "two-point" geometry on these two versions of the Regal two points are distinctly different.

The extended fretboard on the recently posted Regal is especially interesting.  Looks like a compensated bridge rather than the beefy adjustable one on the Nov '13 model.  Also what looks like a Washburn tailpiece--though no telling if that was original.

Mick

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## MikeEdgerton

Yeah, I noticed it wasn't the expected Waverly Cloud cover. Regal used at least three different Waverly style tailpieces and I do believe the covers were interchangeable.

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## mrmando

There was a nice-looking reverse scroll mandolin on Craigslist a few days ago ... similar build quality to the 2-point currently on eBay. Seller wanted only $150.

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## brunello97

> Bob Carlin's book *Regal Musical Instruments: 1895-1955* is an excellent source of information.


After spending some time with Bob's book no exact match shows up for Cary's example.  The Regal Jim posted is a Model 255.

The extra-extended fretboard does show up on a flat-top / oval hole.  

Bob refers to the sans Smurf-scroll as the "Ultra Grand", though to my eye, the two examples we are looking at have different body shapes. Cary's post looks more Bacon-esque.

An interesting hybrid of a number of Regals from the period.

Mick

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## Bill Kammerzell

"Cary's post looks more Bacon-esque."

Along the lines of the Professional, or Professional Artist models?

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## Cary Fagan

The label says "Custom."  Could it be a one-off? I don't have the Regal book on hand; does it say anything about this?

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## Jeff Mando

Doubtful it is a one-off.  Although, Regal did have a "custom shop" as such, before "custom shop" was a common term.....as did Gibson, Harmony, Martin, Fender, etc......quite common for someone to request a personalized guitar, back then.  There were Regal made archtop jazz guitars, such as the Regal Prince, with 18-inch body width, that would rival the quality and beauty of late 30's Gibson Super 400 and L-5's of the day.  There were some in the Chinery collection and pictured in the book.  Not sure if this mandolin would "make the grade", although quite nice.

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## brunello97

> "Cary's post looks more Bacon-esque."
> 
> Along the lines of the Professional, or Professional Artist models?


Not like either of these in particular, obviously, but the overall geometry positions the two points lower with a more gentle curve back to the neck as is in the _basic_ geometry of the Bacon and B+D Regal models as compared with the aforementioned 225 model or the "flat" top / flat back two-point Regals.

My assumption (and I'm not a builder) is that the rim set of these mandolins goes into a mold / form to form the basic body profile.  I imagine it might be possible to put different types of tops (flat, canted, formed, carved) onto a given rim set.  

I don't mean to project into something I don't know a whole lot about, but even a "custom" mandolin would require some jigs / molds / formwork for the body... in which case others--perhaps with various details--or tops--could be made from it.

I assume this is why mandolins Martin made for other people (Ditson, Stewart, etc.) still look like Martin mandolins. I bought just such an un-topped/backed rim with neck and tail block in place (in this case, a Martin-to-be).  Been thinking about adding a carved top / back to it.

Mick

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## Bill Kammerzell

> Not like either of these in particular, obviously, but the overall geometry positions the two points lower with a more gentle curve back to the neck as is in the _basic_ geometry of the Bacon and B+D Regal models as compared with the aforementioned 225 model or the "flat" top / flat back two-point Regals.
> 
> My assumption (and I'm not a builder) is that the rim set of these mandolins goes into a mold / form to form the basic body profile.  I imagine it might be possible to put different types of tops (flat, canted, formed, carved) onto a given rim set.  
> 
> I don't mean to project into something I don't know a whole lot about, but even a "custom" mandolin would require some jigs / molds / formwork for the body... in which case others--perhaps with various details--or tops--could be made from it.
> 
> I assume this is why mandolins Martin made for other people (Ditson, Stewart, etc.) still look like Martin mandolins. I bought just such an un-topped/backed rim with neck and tail block in place (in this case, a Martin-to-be).  Been thinking about adding a carved top / back to it.
> 
> Mick


Far as I knew Bacon only made those two models and the model I have, the Amateur. Those two did have the points. I'm hoping my Amateur does as well at auction this week as this Regal did.

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## brunello97

> Far as I knew Bacon only made those two models and the model I have, the Amateur. Those two did have the points. I'm hoping my Amateur does as well at auction this week as this Regal did.


Me, too!  I'm sure I don't understand what Regal's relationship was with Bacon and / or Bacon and Day.  Could be I am not doing a close enough reading of Bob's book.  He goes into it on pages 81-89.  I don't think he is implying that Regal made the higher end Bacon models. 

Mick

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## Bill Kammerzell

> Me, too!  I'm sure I don't understand what Regal's relationship was with Bacon and / or Bacon and Day.  Could be I am not doing a close enough reading of Bob's book.  He goes into it on pages 81-89.  I don't think he is implying that Regal made the higher end Bacon models. 
> 
> Mick


For what it is worth, I saw a Bacon timeline, somewhere on line. (Wish I could find it now.) They made two models of mandolins in 1922. Prior to that they only made banjos. It looked to me like they only made mandolins until about 1928. Sometime later there was a purchase of their company by Gretsch. Of course I could not vouch for the accuracy of the timeline.

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## Bill Kammerzell

> Me, too!  I'm sure I don't understand what Regal's relationship was with Bacon and / or Bacon and Day.  Could be I am not doing a close enough reading of Bob's book.  He goes into it on pages 81-89.  I don't think he is implying that Regal made the higher end Bacon models. 
> 
> Mick


 Bacon Timeline from Mugwamps. Link. No mention of Regal. Only Gretsch. 

http://www.mugwumps.com/BaconSerialNumbers.html

It was 1920 they announced 2 arch top mandolins. I recall a 1928 catalog with nothing but banjos.

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## brunello97

Yeah. Not to confuse things, we're talking about a decade plus apart here.  

Here's the quote from Bob Carlin's book:

"Where Regal really excelled were in a line made for the Bacon Banjo Company of Groton, Connecticut.  Although Bacon had previously marketed instruments designed for them by prominent mandolinist William Place, Jr.m which look like the work of Lyon and Healy (we know that they weren't made by Bacon themselves, although it is unclear who actually did make them), the Bacon Company had not shown mandolins in their catalogues since 1929 / 1930.

From around 1936 through 1939, Regal under the "B&D moniker, built mandolins that were completely different from anything else on the market.  The top end instruments were eye-popping in their appointments, art deco to-the-max and more akin to the archtop guitars also being produced by Regal under the Bacon & Day label.  In their promotional literature, Bacon poured on the hyperbole. 'Bacon & Day Mandolins,' stated their catalogue circa 1936, 'set new heights of tonal beauty.  .... and all models, from the lowest priced up, are characteristic of the fine quality always associated with the names of Bacon and Day." 

Bob goes on to describe the B&D lines, some of which (such as the 255 model Jim posted,) were also marketed with a Regal label.

My original "Bacon-esque" line seems to have derailed the conversation unfortunately.  If you lop off the Smurf Scroll form the B&D Sultana model, you wind up with a body geometry somewhat closer to Cary's version than the 225 model is.  I'll leave it at that before I make a bigger hash of things.  

Mick

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## Bill Kammerzell

> Yeah. Not to confuse things, we're talking about a decade plus apart here.  
> 
> Here's the quote from Bob Carlin's book:
> 
> "Where Regal really excelled were in a line made for the Bacon Banjo Company of Groton, Connecticut.  Although Bacon had previously marketed instruments designed for them by prominent mandolinist William Place, Jr.m which look like the work of Lyon and Healy (we know that they weren't made by Bacon themselves, although it is unclear who actually did make them), the Bacon Company had not shown mandolins in their catalogues since 1929 / 1930.
> 
> From around 1936 through 1939, Regal under the "B&D moniker, built mandolins that were completely different from anything else on the market.  The top end instruments were eye-popping in their appointments, art deco to-the-max and more akin to the archtop guitars also being produced by Regal under the Bacon & Day label.  In their promotional literature, Bacon poured on the hyperbole. 'Bacon & Day Mandolins,' stated their catalogue circa 1936, 'set new heights of tonal beauty.  .... and all models, from the lowest priced up, are characteristic of the fine quality always associated with the names of Bacon and Day." 
> 
> Bob goes on to describe the B&D lines, some of which (such as the 255 model Jim posted,) were also marketed with a Regal label.
> ...


 Interesting.  :Smile:

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## MikeEdgerton

Well, at least nobody pronounced it a Larson.

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Jeff Mando

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## Cary Fagan

All fascinating. I'm not familiar with Bacon and Day, so I've learned something.

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## Bill Kammerzell

> All fascinating. I'm not familiar with Bacon and Day, so I've learned something.


As far as I know, in the teens and the 1920's there was no "Day" attached to the company name. That came later as Mick's post shows. Inside the mandolin I have the label says "The Bacon Amateur Mandolin." It goes on to refer to the company, "The Bacon Banjo Company Inc. Groton, Connecticut U.S.A." I would guess of late, David Grisman has helped popularize the Bacon Mandolin, somewhat. He owns a couple, and for the line he endorses with Eastman Strings, he's had them design at least one Bacon copy, which I believe is the Bacon Artist Professional.

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## allenhopkins

> ... David Grisman has helped popularize the Bacon Mandolin...for the line he endorses with Eastman Strings, he's had them design at least one Bacon copy, which I believe is the Bacon Artist Professional.


It's the *Eastman DGM-2;* I bought one at Bernunzio's, and it's a real nice mandolin.

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Bill Kammerzell

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## Jeff Mando

That's a real beauty, Allen!

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allenhopkins

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## Jim Garber

> It's the *Eastman DGM-2;* I bought one at Bernunzio's, and it's a real nice mandolin.


No doubt many of you have seen the original. I have played one of the Eastman versions and they did an excellent job making a nice copy. 

Mine has the tone somewhere between a Gibson oval hole and a Lyon & Healy artist.

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allenhopkins, 

Jeff Mando

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## JimmyRayKing

> Amazing. Over $625.00 with the shipping. I wouldn't have thought that.


Hi
 New member here and sorry to bring back an old post but I have a few questions.... I recently purchased a Regal mandolin exactly like this, except the one I bought has solid flamed maple back and sides with a spruce top, and is in amazing almost mint condition with its original case in equal condition.  Is this an "Ultra Grand" model ?  Was $625 the final selling price for this one, and fair market value today ? Were these all made by Regal ? Mine has the Regal with "Custom Built" on the label, does that indicate a special order ? Any and all information is greatly appreciated !
All the best
Jimmy

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## Jim Garber

Post some pics of yours. I have a reverse scroll Regal Ultra Grand but they had two points as well. Here's mine:

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## JimmyRayKing

> Post some pics of yours. I have a reverse scroll Regal Ultra Grand but they had two points as well. Here's mine:


This one does not say anything on the headstock but has the Regal label inside. I saw one like you refer to with the two points, and it looked exactly like mine but said "Ultra Grand" like yours. My headstock is blank?  I will post some pictures asa I figure out how to....   :Smile: 
Thanks for your reply !

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## brunello97

Two-point Papa S Model.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> Mine has the Regal with "Custom Built" on the label, does that indicate a special order ?


I think the standard Regal label says "Custom Built". Here's the one from my Ultra Grand reverse scroll.

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## JimmyRayKing

Ok Hopefully these pictures load  :Smile:   So my label seems exactly like yours Jim, so I guess its the standard Regal logo for a "two point Papa Smurf" lol. I am going to be listing this here in the classifieds b4 it goes to online auction, if anyone is interested. Thanks for your comments, I do appreciate your time and efforts on my behalf !
JRK

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## NickR

Is there an embossed mark on the case bottom? I ask because it is a wonderful case and may have been made for a different mandolin type. Beautiful mandolin- I have the two point custom from 1939 but it does not have that long extension to the fingerboard and is rosewood- whereas your mandolin is maple but it does have the same label- the old 1939 advertisement posted a long time back shows one. My mandolin is in a G & S case that is from the 20s but fits it like a glove but it is a case that will fit an A model mandolin with the cloud tailpiece which I already had and it was a good match. You have not shown the tuners- are they Kluson items?

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## JimmyRayKing

Here's a shot of the pearl button open back tuners , pretty sure they are original and possibly Kluson? And yes the case does have an embossed mark on the bottom ! You learn something new everyday  :Smile:  Its also in really nice shape too, especially considering its age. Any more details on the case ? Is it the equivalent of the 1959 Gibson Les Paul Lifton " Cali Girl " case ?   :Smile:

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## Jim Garber

My UltraGrand has the original HSC. I will post some pics and the stamp assuming there is one.

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## NickR

Those Kluson tuners date it to the very late 1930s. I just wonder if it is a case for another style of mandolin but was sold for use with this mandolin. On that basis, it might make monetary sense to sell the case separately if it is- but that's your choice- you can buy a modern case for the Regal but that gap when your mandolin is in ite suggests a different shaped mandolin- but you may never be able to ascertain which model. Let us know what the embossed maker's mark says. It will be Geib ( G & S) or Bulls Head most likely- the shape of the lid possibly suggests the latter.

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## JimmyRayKing

[/ATTACH]

Hey Nick thanks so much for your help ! Here are some pictures of the case and embossed logo. If you look closely, you can see the logo says Geib. After a little research it appears to be the exact same case that a $140,000 Gibson Loar signed F5  mandolin came with, so it probably is the mandolin equivalent of the 1959 Gibson Les Paul Lifton " Cali Girl " case !   :Smile:   :Wink:

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## Jim Garber

I doubt it. The cases that Loar F-5s came in go for a couple of thousand dollars. I think your case was made for all Ultragrands and is the same as mine. None of these mandolins are super collectible but are more cool oddballs. So dont expect to get $2000-3000 (as you mentioned for the Les Paul case) for this case. I am guessing it is original to the mandolin.

Here are pics of my case which is also stamped Geib but very hard to read and even harder to photograph.

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## NickR

Geib Inc replaced the name Geib & Schaeffer ( G & S) in 1937. If it is Geib Inc embossed then this shows the mandolin to be concurrent with the mandolin itself and as Jim Garber suggests is original to the mandolin. Whether it is a type that fitted other mandolins- and more importantly as far as its value- other premium mandolins, I don't know. It may well be a shape that fits the Kay made "Venetian" style mandolin shape which is asymmetrical and needs extra space on one side- the side where there is that gap when your mandolin is in the case. I have a 1939 Kay mandolin which I keep in an early 1920s Gibson F4 case and I would split them up if I sold the mandolin. I have seen an original case that fits the Kay shape but I don't think I kept any photos although I did post them up on the vintage case Facebook page.

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## JimmyRayKing

> I doubt it. The cases that Loar F-5s came in go for a couple of thousand dollars. I think your case was made for all Ultragrands and is the same as mine. None of these mandolins are super collectible but are more cool oddballs. So don’t expect to get $2000-3000 (as you mentioned for the Les Paul case) for this case. I am guessing it is original to the mandolin.
> 
> Here are pics of my case which is also stamped Geib but very hard to read and even harder to photograph.


Hi Jim
 Thanks again for your knowledge and input ! I don't think I mentioned a value for the case, and as you probably saw I included a smile and wink after the statement.   I am a guitar player and not a Mandolin player so this needs to go to someone who can play and appreciate it. The case would be a bonus as most Ive seen with the Regal's were chipboard/cardboard. I will be posting them both for sale soon....
Cheers

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## NickR

I actually did save one photo. As I wrote above, I don't know if your mandolin case was designed to fit the Venetian and dealers were able to match up the various Regal Custom mandolins with the existing range of cases they had. As I mentioned, mine is in a G & S case that I already had that was made in the 1920s. Here is the Kay Kraft mandolin in its case. While the auction progressed, the seller said she had been told by somebody out there in eBayland  it was a very valuable F5 case. I told her it definitely was not and was the Venetian case- pretty rare but not nearly as valuable. There was somebody determined to win the auction for some sentimental reason it seems and it sold for way more than I would ever have predicted as it was the bottom end model of three that were made circa 1933 or so.

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## JimmyRayKing

> Geib Inc replaced the name Geib & Schaeffer ( G & S) in 1937. If it is Geib Inc embossed then this shows the mandolin to be concurrent with the mandolin itself and as Jim Garber suggests is original to the mandolin. Whether it is a type that fitted other mandolins- and more importantly as far as its value- other premium mandolins, I don't know. It may well be a shape that fits the Kay made "Venetian" style mandolin shape which is asymmetrical and needs extra space on one side- the side where there is that gap when your mandolin is in the case. I have a 1939 Kay mandolin which I keep in an early 1920s Gibson F4 case and I would split them up if I sold the mandolin. I have seen an original case that fits the Kay shape but I don't think I kept any photos although I did post them up on the vintage case Facebook page.


 Does this look like the same case to you ? If so is it safe to assume that even if it didn't come with a Loar that it will fit the Gibson F4 and F5 Mandolins ? Were the Gibson F style still being made in the late 30s? Would this be the correct case for one of those then ?
Thanks again your time and help is greatly appreciated. As I mentioned I will be putting this up for sale soon and want to be as accurate in the description and fair in pricing as I can be...
All the best
Jimmy

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## Jim Garber

> Does this look like the same case to you ? If so is it safe to assume that even if it didn't come with a Loar that it will fit the Gibson F4 and F5 Mandolins ? Were the Gibson F style still being made in the late 30s? Would this be the correct case for one of those then ?
> Thanks again your time and help is greatly appreciated. As I mentioned I will be putting this up for sale soon and want to be as accurate in the description and fair in pricing as I can be...
> All the best
> Jimmy


I don't think this is the same case thought it could be also made by Geib. Mine has an extra point for the treble side and the F-5 case has a rounded bass side vs. a much smaller small bass lump for the Regal case. I don't have a Loar F-5 or any copy to try in this case. I do have a Kay Florentine and that will not fit in this case at all. And here is a modern F-5 case next to my Regal case.

Regal was a large company and probably ordered a bunch of custom cases for this model. I don't know of any other maker's mandolin will fit in it.

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## Jim Garber

BTW there was this thread started in 2010 with lots of additional info on the Regal carved top mandolins: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...al-Ultra-Grand

You will see that the two pointers similar to JimmyRayKing's have the same case with the extra space that I am not even more convinced were used for all models of this series.

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