# Song and Tune Projects > Song and Tune Projects >  Sally Goodin--Mandolin Project Discussion

## craig

per a member's suggestion. #this is to kick off the discussion on our song for the month of March, Sally Goodin'!

i'd have to agree with stanley, that i too like the sound of the double-stop section. #it brings a richness to the song. #still haven't gotten it down smooth, though.

contrary to that, i'm having trouble getting volume out of the fourth part of the song. #i play that whole part in 3rd position, but it sounds a bit dead. #anybody else playing it that way?

here's an example in tab for how i'm playing measures 27-29:

<span style='font-family:Courier'>&#124;-9-5-7-5-----5-7-&#124;-9-7-9-7-5-7-5---&#124;--------5---5-----&#124;
&#124;---------7-9-----&#124;---------------9-&#124;-7----7---9-------&#124;
&#124;-----------------&#124;-----------------&#124;---11-------------&#124;
&#124;-----------------&#124;-----------------&#124;------------------&#124;</span>

happy pickin'!

craig

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## OzArkie

Craig,

How is what you wrote in you post different to the TEF version?

They look the same to me.

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## craig

doh! by golly, you're right! i've been learning just from the standard note and didn't even look at the TAB, obviously.

my point was that you could play it like this instead:

<span style='font-family:Courier'>&#124;-9-5-7-5-----5-7-&#124;-9-7-9-7-5-7-5-2-&#124;-0----0-5-2-5-----&#124;
&#124;---------7-9-----&#124;-----------------&#124;---4--------------&#124;
&#124;-----------------&#124;-----------------&#124;------------------&#124;
&#124;-----------------&#124;-----------------&#124;------------------&#124;</span>

(i assumed that is what the TAB on TEF would have done.)

anybody playing it that way?

craig

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## levin4now

Good way to start the discussion...I hadn't started to really learn that part yet. I just sort of fumble through it, and your specific topic made me focus on it, and whilst I am not smooth at it, i realized that I could play it if i really worked at it - and hey it's not in the first position.

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## MrSrubas

I don't know much about "YOUR SONG" but sally goodin' is one of my favorite tunes to play, and the lyrics are a blast too! but that is pretty high on the scale to be singing...where abouts is this post that you guys refer to? i'd be interested to see how it differs. I have seen a few different versions, but I think a good old timey tune like that can't really be sung any lower then it is played.

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## Michael H Geimer

MrSrubas,
I would be the fool that volunteered to do vox. I found a recorded version done by Woodie Guthire where he sings, to your point above, he does the song in D. I just wasn't thinking about how I usually move the darned key of most every song I tackle - to suit my rather limited vocal capabilities.

Ultimately I agree with you, that this song _wants_ to be in the key of A, and that's where I plan to stay. Some of those high notes are just gonna squeak a bit, but I'll give it my best, and to heck with the rest!

Tomorrow morning is when I'm planning to set down my scratch tracks, so I'll find out soon enough what I'm truly able to do with this tune.

Edit: LOL! I just grabbed a guitar and thought, hey I'll test the waters in A for a bit. ROTF!!!!!! I think I'll still keep it in A, but I'm just gonna have to go 8va south when I sing ... which really isn't so bad for me.

Nik, You gonna duet with me and sing those great rebuttal lyrics? 

 - Benignus

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## Nik-chick

Benig: Since I have an audition in a week, several songs to learn for a choir I just joined and a solo to practice for the dedication of our stained glass windows at our church...and don't get to practice any of it until I'm over this sore throat...that would be a negative. I don't think I'll have time to learn the melody to that too (or how it fits w/ the words anyway...I can't seem to keep time w/out singing "Four and One and Two and Three and Four and One and..." with the notes I'm picking.)

That, and you're in A and I'm in D (be courageous all YOU want, but I've already learned better the hard way! If I sang that thing in A...my starting note would be A 440 and up from there. I don't think so! Tho...how far below the starting note does it go? I could do it in the range a tenor would be in in A probably as long as the notes wouldn't go much lower than the register of the mandolin.)

*L* That's so me. I'm sitting here saying I'm not going to try to sing it, and thinking about what key I would sing it in in the same post.

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## Bluegrasstjej

My goodness, folks, I thought you asked for beginners?? I will never be able to learn that version in a month, unless I take a month's holiday from school and play the mandolin full-time!! It's really complicated and I feel really basic as you talk about it as it was just like any simple tune!

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## craig

susanne,

it's not as bad as it seems. yes, it is challenging, but there is a lot of repetition. also, if the double-stops in part 3 are throwing you off, you can probably just substitute part 1 in there. it seems to me the whole song could be mixed around really. often, simpler is better. doc watson pulls it off.

yeah, the recording thing is darn frustrating. i've tried many times (20+) with one song and i never gotten through without screwing it up. then, when i do, i go back and listen just to find that my timing is all over the place. it's definitely a humbling learning experience.

keep at it. you've got more than a month.

craig

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## Michael H Geimer

" *L* That's so me. I'm sitting here saying I'm not going to try to sing it, and thinking about what key I would sing it in in the same post. "
 - Nik-chick

That's what makes you ... _a singer_! ... and me 'just some guy singing'.

Besides, I was just funnin' you about those cool parody lyrics you put up.

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## Bluegrasstjej

Oh Craig, thank you for telling me I'm not alone! I recorded the metronome beats yesterday for Sally, then added a new track with the tune and it just made me want to throw up! Which inspired another thread I started last night....It's humbling for sure!!!!!
But I must say it's a good experience because it gives me more motivation to work on timing. Martin adviced me on the other thread to download a computer metronome which is nicer than mine, because you can choose what you want it to sound like, including any kind of drum, bass, etc. Check it out at http://www.pinkandaint.com/weirdmet.shtml. You just have to download it and extract the files.

I have a hard time too, recording the whole song without screwing it up. That's my usual problem with all songs! I guess it's just about practice, until you know the tune so well that you don't even have to think while playing it.

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## Michael H Geimer

Ok ... I have mostly been looking at printed music that I have around for Sally Goodin, but last night I worked through the TEF file. One of the printed peices is a transcription of Monroe. That version is almost all wicked double-stop downstroke madness, classic Bill. But, one bit of phrasing really stood out to me as different way you could treat either measures 18-19, or measures 22-23. The 3 agsint 2 feel reminds me of a fiddler's phrasing, it really drives the rythym forward. I actually find it a tad easier, too.

&#124;-----------------&#124;-----------------&#124;
&#124;-4-2-0-4-2-0-4-2-&#124;-0-4-2-0-----0-2-&#124;
&#124;-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-&#124;-7-7-7-7-2-4-----&#124;
&#124;-----------------&#124;-----------------&#124;

 - Benignus

... sorry about the messed up TAB. If anyone knows how I can get it straightened out, please let me know.

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## craig

benignus,

i like your rendition:

<span style='font-family:Courier'>&#124;-----------------&#124;-----------------&#124;
&#124;-4-2-0-4-2-0-4-2-&#124;-0-4-2-0-----0-2-&#124;
&#124;-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-&#124;-7-7-7-7-2-4-----&#124;
&#124;-----------------&#124;-----------------&#124;</span>

it does simplify it quite a bit. at least it's a repeating roll.

i've been experimenting with:

<span style='font-family:Courier'>&#124;-----------------&#124;-----------------&#124;
&#124;-0-4-2-0-0---0-0-&#124;-2-0---------0-2-&#124;
&#124;-7-7-7-7-7---7-7-&#124;-7-7-4-2-2-4-----&#124;
&#124;-----------------&#124;-----------------&#124;</span>

i think it's even simpler, but probably loses some of the drive that your bill monroe measures have.

what do you think?

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## Michael H Geimer

Well ... I'm a little embarrased to say this ... but I think I'm already done. That 'puter keeps track of each take I record, and the last number on the list is #478 - Eeeck!, that might really be a month's worth after all! #

Sure, I could keep hammering away at it for another thirty days, 'cause right now there sure aren't any of 'those' double stops, and I never do leave fisrt position ... but I've never described myself as a flashy player, so I'm inclinded to just leave it be ... at 478 takes!  Now, I did happen to get a few verses in there! Indeed, once I accepted that I just needed to sing it low, the vocals became the easiest part - who knew?

All in all, I'm actually very happy with this silly little tune. I seem to have fun working with tidy little 1-2 minute arrangements, as I can play simply and yet still keep things changing, and hopefully interesting. I'm also really happy I get the opportunity to share it here. It's like we all get to post a picture on the Cafe 'fridge. 

Sally Goodin

 - Benignus

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## craig

benignus,

SWEET!! very nice job on this tune!! i nearly fell out of my chair. you're no beginner, that's for sure. i've put it on the project page if you don't mind:

Mandolin Project

nice rhythm. if i didn't have a hot cup of coffee in my hand i would've been dancing. gotta go to work, now, but i'll be humming this the whole way . . . "had a piece of pie, had a piece of pudding . . . . ."

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## Michael H Geimer

Thanks craig! I am only a beginner in the sense of being new to mandolin, and string band music. I admit, I've been recording for while. Did you say you've already put it up on the Yahoo! site? (Ooops. I totally forgot I was supposed to put it there)

Major thanks for thr rythym comment! See, Saturday afternoon when I took a pause to eat some lunch I ran across a thread here about metronomes and rythym. I was already feeling very critical of the groove I had put down - always a personal weak area - and ended up resetting the click track so it would accent different beats, _then I started all over!_

Ok coffee time for me ...

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## Bluegrasstjej

Oh gosh, this is really good. You have a wonderful voice and those guitar/mandolin harmonies are just awesome.

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## craig

Benignus,

I've listened to your track a few more times. It's class stuff. Who did the guitar work?

You talked about a "click track". What does that mean and is that something i could do with the "audacity" software? You ain't seen nothing about poor timing until you hear my recording. I'd definitely need something like that.

Anyway, great job again. Can't wait to hear others comments on this. I should say that it's an intimidating piece of work, so i'll try to get my recording up soon to level the playing field for the more musically challenged.:laugh: 

Craig

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## stanley

hmmmm....doesn't sound anything like what I AM trying to do!!!! Thanks Mike. (nice job BTW)

Anyhow, spent most of the weekend skiing the aftermath of a 'gorilla sierra storm'...now its time to get a-crackin' at this thing. I like mike's slide up to the A note. Kinda the idling along thing from salt creek...and if I'm not careful I'll just start play SC. Nice touch though. 

Craig, I've been messing around with different ways of playing the 'up the neck' part, but I think I'll stay with the intended fingering...mainly to excercise that pinky more. But I may find myself applying an alternate method occasionally...as that will help to 'tie notes together' around the fretboard (if that makes any sense). 

At this point I haven't learned the second variation of the B part (maybe I'm wrong but I view this version of the song as 3 A part variations & 2 B part variations). And I must say that the first B part is a gas to play. Sorry, now I'm ramblin'...

Bill

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## Michael H Geimer

Hey, thanks again for the comments! I'll glady type some commentary on how I record - after being 'cooped up' all weekend recording, I'm a little starved for conversation, ya know?

I'm using a piece of multi-track software called Logic Audio, which is set up differently than 2-track software like Audacity. When recording something with more than one instrument, it is important to have an independent time keeper - the 'click track'. In my case, the 'click' comes from a drum machine that's hooked up via MIDI, but I've recorded my tabletop metronome too. I usually set the 'clicks' to beat on 2 and 4, but when I listened to the scratch tracks the groove just wasn't there ... so I switched it over so it would click on 1 and 3, but I had to start all in order to lock in with the new 'feel'.

So, with temporary guitar chords recorded for the entire song against the click, I start putting down the lead lines, and the vocals. I always try to go for the most natural 'feeling' performance I can muster. This is why I play simple parts with little or no ornamentation, so I can relax as much as I possibly can hopefully avoid sounding like 'the red light is on!' This is also why I 'obesses' on the work and try to finish what I've started 'while the iron is still hot'.

Now, here's my little secret ... Only after all the 'lead' parts are done, do I go back to record the final accompanyment. See, when I play live with a good soloist, I listen pretty intently to the lead lines in order support the phrasing. By recording my rythym parts last I can give my own parts the same sort of attention that I give the guys I play with. (I am not the lead player in _any_ of the groups I'm in ... FWIW)

I hope nobody comes away thinking I did this to 'set a standard'. Gosh, nothing of the sort. In fact, I was a little nervous about posting something finfished so quickly. I'm also a little self concious about not being a beginner in a project that was originally billed as such. I really just want to have fun with some fiddle tunes! Plus, any close examination of my parts will show that I'm not really doing anything that technically advanced. I actually went to some length to 'dumb down' the trickier phrases ... mostly to keep my pinky out of the fray. Even with a month's preparation, I don't think I could get that TEF arrangement up to speed!

Craig, truly ... the hardest stuff was the guitar. Though guitar was my first instrument, I never really did much flatpicking on guitar until I picked up mandolin. Plus, there was just no way to avoid using my picky when playng those B sections on guitar! (some cramping happened)

OK ... some boring production notes:

There are only four tracks, with the idea of it being arranged for just two players - a guitar player, and a mandolin player - each singing. Everything was recorded using a single SM-57 mic about 10" away , which I only moved up to chin level when I sang - that distance is why you can hear my breathing in the guitar tracks from time to time. I hoped by keeping a set 'viewing distance' with the mic, that I could hold onto a somewhat natural feel. There are select 'punch ins' before each lead, but I always made sure to play through from the previous rythym part in order to maintain continuity. For those who don't know the term 'punch-in', it means that I didn't actually play it all through in one single take, but rather I was able to start and stop the recording at set points - choosing only the most successful efforts to keep - that sure helps, huh?  Minimal EQ. Minimal compression. No effects.

Thanks again for letting me share!

 - Benig

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## craig

benignus,

thanks for the explanation. #although, it sounds like some additional equipment would be required in order for me to use a "click track". #maybe i'll use a metronome with just a visual (blinking light) or something. #as for an accompaniment, i'll have to talk my other mando buddy into chopping along or something.

anyway, we're glad to have you along regardless of whether you're a beginner or not. #i wasn't slagging you for that. #just trying to encourage the beginners by reassuring them that not all of us are up to the same level. #great job and thanks for participating! #

now, no fair getting a head start on the next song 

craig

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## stanley

Wait....he isn't obligated to work on the double stops and up-the-neck stuff???

Sorry Benig, but I'm looking forward to that version. 

Bill

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## Michael H Geimer

"...maybe i'll use a metronome with just a visual (blinking light) or something."

Not everything I do is a full-fledged multi-track evdeavour. I often record myself with a metronome set atop the piano clicking away ... if you put the mic next to one of the soundholes, you won't really hear too much 'bleed through' from the metronome. I even think it's sorta cool to hear a little 'click click' in the background ... it keeps it real.

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## John Ritchhart

God, I hate people with talent.

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## OzArkie

Oh my.

I suppose that the effort to learn 17 measures is not going to make it... *sigh*.

Benignus... awesome, simply awesome.

Is there a chance that you could post only the single mandolin track? It would help me hearing what one actually does.

Awesome, simply awesome... *sigh*

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## Michael H Geimer

" Is there a chance that you could post only the single mandolin track? "

Well, "yes". But, wouldn't that defeat the purpose? What I mean is, part of the adventure here is exploring where the song goes _in your hands_. That's why I thought some guitar back-up tracks would help give folks a 'context' for their own playing, and maybe help ground the melody against something other than a MIDI track.

But, "Yes". I'll send you a link off-line later, rather than posting it out 'in public'. ( I'd be nekkid! )

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## Jack Roberts

Benignus:

It's so purty I'm like to cry. 

Jack

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## Nik-chick

Benig: To turn around what you said earlier: And that's what makes you an artist/recording artist and me just a back-porch singer. 

------

Added after hearing it: WOW! Cool! You could sell that!

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## Michael H Geimer

It's all done with smoke and mirrors, my dear. Simon Cowell would eat me for breakfast. 

BTW: Thanks everyone for the compliments. Other than the beer guzzlers at the corner pub, #you all are my only audience. So it's nice to hear the feedback. It's really made me feel happy ... and also a tad self-concious.

 - Benig

" ... and me just a back-porch singer. " 

And all I can think is, " Cool! A back porch to pick on! " That's a true Urban Rarity!

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## Nik-chick

> And all I can think is, " Cool! A back porch to pick on! " That's a true Urban Rarity!


You know, I should practice there if the weather's nice next time I'm at the house (with my folks). I don't have a porch here in the dorm except the landing of the fire escape or the one one on the adjoining building (or the sidewalk). Never thought about anyone except some apartment/dorm dwellers not having them (and apt dwellers have balconies, or a stoop or something, right?)

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## ShaneJ

Benignus, that's great, man! #Now, get to work on another song for us! #

BTW, what mandolin (& strings) are you playing? Guitar?? They sound good.

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## carolynbeth

Benignus, well done! Groovy little "swing" you put on it too. It's great to hear what the song really sounds like, since I've only heard it on a MIDI until now....

I just sprained my wrist snowboarding over the weekend -- doh!! -- so I may have to back out of this project, at least temporarily. Really hoping it will feel better in a few days.... what a bummer... :Frown:  # And just when I was starting to really COOK on this tune (ha, ha!)

Sigh....

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## craig

well, we've got 53 signed up so far, but where is everyone? you all workin' so hard on the song you got no time for the cafe? my fingers get too sore, so i've got to take a break.

just wanted to see how you're coming along? the transition to the double-stops section is still killing me. i've found that i have to slam the pinky down on the A-note/D-string so that it is perfectly perpendicular with the fretboard. otherwise, there's all kinds of buzzing. that's pretty tough when you're middle finger is reaching for the B-note/A-string. i really like the sound of the double stops, so i want to get it. but, i don't imagine i'll be playing this song at more than 120 bpm.

pick on . . .

craig

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## stanley

I find that dropping into measure 21 from the last note in measure 20 (F# to A) is driving my fingers batty...they just don't to it very cleanly (yet). However, I think that getting that transition smooth will allow me to jump into the double-stop section more fluidly (whether its following the first B-part or following one of the A-parts). Basically, I'm looking to play this thing regardless of order (or logic thereof)...having identical rhythm/backup chords is key! The 12th fret 'E' is also driving me batty...and the B-part variation doesn't seem to have the melody/logic that the first B-part has, but I'm trying to drill it into my head!

Other stuff: I downloaded the audacity software and dug out a mic. I'll start playing around with it and hopefully will have something to post in the not too distant future (assuming the recording process is somewhat straighforward...so no promises). Just don't expect benig quality recording/playing!

Bill

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## Nik-chick

Those who suck (at current ability level anyway) should not be perfectionists! The best I managed even after beating a little piece to death is that you can ALMOST recognise it. *L* I had a timing problem on the second measure and stayed there forever. Okay, time to learn the REST of the song now.

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## mandocrucian

Some doublestop stuff ala Buzz Busby, Vassar Clements, Dale Potter etc. aplied to "Sally Goodin". Use the 3rd and 1st fingers for most of the doublestops.

<span style='font-family:courier'>&#124;&#124;-5-0-4-5--0-1-2-0-&#124;-3-0-2-3--0-1-2-0-&#124;-5-0-4-5--0-1-2-0-&#124;------------------&#124;&#124; 
&#124;&#124;-9-0-8-9--0-3-4-0-&#124;-7-0-6-7--0-3-4-0-&#124;-9-0-8-9--0-3-4-0-&#124;-5-0-3-4--0---0---&#124;&#124;
&#124;&#124;------------------&#124;------------------&#124;------------------&#124;-9-0-6-7--7-7-7---&#124;&#124;
&#124;&#124;------------------&#124;------------------&#124;------------------&#124;------------6-----&#124;&#124;</span>

Niles Hokkanen

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## craig

niles,

thanks for the suggestion! i tried this run a bit. i can't seem to get the sound of it to fit with the song. would you be able to provide a sample?

cheers,

craig

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## Jaded

Nice job Benignus. I'd love to have your rhythm tracks to practice with. 

I don't have the patience for tab, so I'm tryin to work it out on my own. Hopefully it will at least end up recognizable

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## Mandobar

Benignus,

amazing recording and as always the players with mucho talent are the most humble.

great stuff!

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## John Zimm

Hey, I just listened to your recording of Sally Goodin Benignus . That is awesome. Now I have to read the rest of the thread to see how you did it. 

-John.

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## adgefan

> well, we've got 53 signed up so far, but where is everyone? #you all workin' so hard on the song you got no time for the cafe? #my fingers get too sore, so i've got to take a break.


Craig,

I'm here, I'm just lurking! The version of Sally Goodin from co-mando is way beyond my reach at the moment. I've only been playing since the start of the year....

I have, however, recently bought the "Teach Yourself Bluegrass" book which contains a much simpler version, and I'm doing quite well with that. I'll be working on this and once I get it down I might try and move up to the more difficult version. 

As for the one mp3 we have so far, all I can say is "wow". Quite magnificent and almost enough to put me off even trying.

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## harwilli55

WTG Benignus, not only is the playing good, but you got the recording down. It is good to have something model off of. 

I'll be interested to see everyones interpretations ....and ...lolol.....I'll be truly interested to see my own flap fingered mess.

Love the posts and am so glad to have found a great community.

Harlan

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## craig

hey y'all!

check out SJennings' version! #nice suprise. #we have another brave vocalist here. #it's uploaded at Mandolin Project. #love the fusion of the two songs and he does a real nice job with the double-stop section of Sally Goodin--something i'm still struggling with.

thanks for playing Shane!

craig

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## Bluegrasstjej

Really nice, Shane! I loved that!!

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## Bluegrasstjej

Am I the only one not playing Tabledit's version? I just don't have time to learn that, so I go for Bert Casey's version with a slight variation. I'd love to learn the more complicated version but it's simply impossible while being a college student (and on the last term too, with absolutely NO free time - if I play the mandolin I steal time from my studies).

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## ShaneJ

Thanks, guys! Don't give me too much credit for the double stop section -- I didn't play the double stop. I chickened out and left my pinky out of the deal. Just played the A part again where the double stop was supposed to be. Maybe I'll get that part down a little better by month end and post an update. I thought I'd post just what came out without doing any editing and punching in. I've been playing mando for a year, and it would probably take me another year to get the recording perfect.

At any rate, I'm sure someone is really going to shine on the double stop section. I look forward to hearing it done right.

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## harwilli55

Shane, 

Great stuff !!! Like the integration of Country Boy and Sally Goodin. 

Harlan

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## Michael H Geimer

Right On! Shane! I really like your voice, and - of course - the whole Denver integration. Great job. I'm grinnin' ear to ear.  

Would you be willing to share recording details for us technophiles?

 - Benignus

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## craig

shane,

oh, i thought i heard some double-stops in there. i'll have to have a better listen. nice job, nonetheless! i'm gonna go make my fingers bleed . . .

craig

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## carolynbeth

Hmmmm.....I thought I heard some double stops in there too. Hey, if that was "chickening out" Shane it sounded pretty darn good to me! Glad to see another John Denver fan too -- always loved that tune....

Well, back to practice. I may have to "chicken out" on that double stop section too...the best I can say about my version is it sounds a little less horrible than when I first started. Hey, progress is progress....:D 

Carolyn

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## pickinNgrinnin

Wow! This is great stuff. Loved both versions. I don't know this song but I started on it last night - the Tabledit version. This song has been going through my head since I heard Benignus' version yesterday. 

Can someone record just the Guitar part and post it to this site. It would be fun playing along with a rhythm track.

Sjennings - only playing for one year? No one is buying that  

Great work folks!

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## ShaneJ

> Would you be willing to share recording details for us technophiles?
> 
>  - Benignus


Thanks for the kind words, Benignus!

I just bought a Tascam US-122 audio/MIDI interface (like an external sound card) and plugged in a Studio Projects B1 condenser mic. #I recorded the guitar track on Goldwave, and added a tiny bit of reverb there. #I couldn't figure out how to get Goldwave to play back the guitar track while I recorded the others, so I exported the file to Audacity and did the rest there. #I added a little reverb and noise reduction to the mando and voice tracks also. #I found that what appeared to be a very simplistic program (Audacity) was really a pretty good one that is just simple. # 

With a little time spent, I'm sure you could come up with a great sounding recording with my humble setup, local "performer" notwithstanding!

pickinNgrinnin, sorry about leaving out a little info  #I've played guitar for 27 years, but just bought my first mando about a year ago. #I didn't have to learn how to fret cleanly and use a pick, and I knew a limited amount of theory (always played more by ear), so I had a pretty good leg up on anyone starting from "scratch". #I have learned more in the last year playing mandolin and reading all the great info on the Cafe than I ever learned in 5 years before. # #

Thank all of you, BTW, for your contributions to my musical education!

Have a great day!

Shane

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## ShaneJ

Oh yeah, I learned to play guitar by playing John Denver songs when I was 9. #I already had learned the fiddle and dobro solo parts on mando before the Sally project. #Figured I'd better start with John Denver again. #I'd forgotten until I started listening to his stuff again last year just how many songs had a bluegrassy feel. I had always sung the line about playing Sally Goodin, but never learned the song. This was fun!

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## Dan Adams

I've been watching the "Project" from afar, thinking it was a good idea, and I still think it is a _great_ idea. But I remember learning Sally Goodin thirty years ago, and it was a really simple tune that was great for beginners because it required three fingers, three strings, and the 2nd through the 5th position. The input from most of the beginners would indicate that is their desire. I'll be the first to admit I like playing variations with double stops and up the neck, but isn't this a beginners forum? It's no wonder people that are learning to play the mandolin get intimidated by more advanced players, it gets way too complicated, way too fast. Keep it simple, and the beginners will appreciate the original motive of the thread. Just my opinion. Shane's version is good because it starts with the simpleist form of the tune and then advances into more complex variations. Keep up the great input and questions, I'm anxious to see what the April tune will be. If nothing else, this thread has made me go back and re-visit a fiddle tune classic. 

If I can't play the simple version, how am I going to and embelishments and variations? Dan

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## Nik-chick

How do ya play the slides and ties? They're all thru the standard notation of the TEF.

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## craig

nik,

i just ignore the slides  no sense in making it more complicated than necessary.

craig

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## Nik-chick

But, if I get to it, how do ya? I jess wanna know. Chances are it's like tremellos-something I'll get the theory but sure ain't doin. *L*

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## craig

nik,

for some stupid reason, the slides *aren't* coming up on my TEF, now. #can you give me an example of a measure with a slide? #seems i remember there was a slide in measure 15 where it goes G# to F# or maybe it's from teh F# to the G.

craig

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## Nik-chick

I'm on a different file actually. I chose the "White" one. The Monroe ain't happening. I took one look/listen at it and started listening to the others *LOL*

Just in theory (since I probably won't actually get to it anyhow) how is a slide done? Do you just slide your finger up the string a couple frets or what? (AKA, I don't have it handy *L*)

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## craig

nik,

as an example, if you were sliding from a C to C# on the A-string, you fret the C and pick the string as you normally would. then, rather than lift your figure to go for the C#, you just slide it from the C to C# in keeping with the time signature. you don't pluck the string again, either. the string should just continue to ring.

does that make sense?

----------


## craig

nik,

BTW, the version that is posted on the group site isn't the Monroe version. i just checked the White version you are doing, and i think the version we're working on may be a bit easier, especially if you just stick with the first A & B parts. all those slides in the White version would be a bit tricky. just a thought . . .

----------


## Nik-chick

Which one then? I went thru all the ones on my zip of the TEF...but, you know...my zip may be outdated. *L* I downloaded it a long time ago.

Added later: I found it, but the link is broken.

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## craig

nik,

i'll e-mail it to you through the e-mail you provided at the Yahoo! Groups page.

also, i fixed the link on the Mandolin Project page, so it actually works now. (eventually i'll get the hang of this HTML stuff.)

craig

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## craig

YEEEHAAAAA!

There's a new recording up! Willard just posted his version of Sally Goodin. No vocals, but you just want to get up and square dance to this one. Great job Willard! I like the multi-track he did on this one. Correct me if I'm wrong Willard, but I believe he did the "chop" track himself. Nice chops.

What do you all think?

Craig

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## Coy Wylie

Thanks for putting that up for me Craig. Well boys and girls, its rough compared to the first two posted but its what I could do with the time I had. This is my first attempt at a multitrack recording. I laid down the lead line first, then the chop and then the guitar. I was just playing around with it but thought "What the heck" and sent it to Craig to see what he thought. He posted it. Well, at least there is room to improve...

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## Nik-chick

Is it cheating to use your fingers instead of a pick? I decided to start on the double stops today. They weren't too bad, but I had a delay between hitting strings. So, I tried putting the pick down...I can honestly say this is the only thing that's gone well. *L* 

The parts I was having trouble with before I can play if I have a second string for some odd reason. I'm sure it has something to do w/ the way my brain stores information or something. It just makes it easier to remember the pattern...somehow.  

Anyway, the question is, is it cheating to not use a pick and play doublestops with two fingers for two strings?

----------


## fredhicks

Cheat? How the heck can you cheat playing music? You can cheat at golf.......cheat at cards......cheat at.....can't figure out how to cheat at music. You either play what you like........or change what you are doing and keep right on playing. Now.....you can tell me my playing sucks, that I can believe..........

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## Michael H Geimer

Willard! I love it! Very cool that this is your first multi-track effort - that's a whole Black Art of it's own. Taking on both a new tune and a new recording technique at the same time deserves some 'extra credit'. 

 - Benig

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## jds4peace

Thanks to Willard for the first pure mandolin version, and the first true beginner's version...sounds great!

Still workin' on my version...hopefully i'll have something by the end of the month....

I'll be doin the Bert Casey version, and hopefully i want to spice one break up with my own take on it....(maybe)

I'm havin' trouble matching the tracks up in audacity...when i play back my guitar rythm track
and record the mando it sounds right on time, but when i play it back after recording its way off...any ideas?

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I'm havin' trouble matching the tracks up in audacity...when i play back my guitar rythm track
> and record the mando it sounds right on time, but when i play it back after recording its way off...any ideas?


That's normal and discussed in the Audacity manual. Basically, your mandolin playing mathces what you hear through the headphones or speakers when you play. But the transmission and processing is not instananeous and so it goes on the recorded track a few milliseconds after the matching backing track. You can hear that during recording if you have the soundcard set to monitoring: you hear your mandolin playing back through the headphone slightly after you've actually played it. Terribly distracting, and therefore not recommended for actual recording! When you've completed the recording, you have to shift one the tracks manually slightly to match the other. You can do that either by trial-and-error or by putting a synchronisation marker at the beginning (or end) of your recorded track. One way of doing that is to put a few bars of metronome at the beginning of your backing track and to tap along with it when you start your recording. Matching the metronome with your tapping is much easier than matching the two music tracks -- you can do it by looking at the recorded signal rather than having to listen to it.

Martin

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## jds4peace

thanks for the info...seems like a huge software bug to me though...definitely not intuitive.

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## craig

we've got another addition! that's 4 now. "Jaded" has her recording up at Mandolin Project! more good stuff! now, i definitely heard some double-stops in this one.

thanks for sharing, Jaded. i'm impressed with you all getting this song up to speed in such a short time.

craig

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## Dedian

I remember Jaded saying something in the email announcing the addition to the group, something about a fuzzy recording. I thought it sounded cool like that (though I don't know, or think, Jaded intended the fuzziness). Felt pretty old-timey, over the AM or some such thing  Very cool.

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## Michael H Geimer

" ... seems like a huge software bug to me though...definitely not intuitive. "

FWIW: It's definately NOT a bug - or even and _undocumented feature_  - the annoyance is termed 'latency'. And as a term it refers to the amout of time - in milliseconds - that it takes a soundcard to process and convert an analog input into digital bits. 

To be clear latency is something that comes from your soundcard - not from the software. Any mutlitrack software will have to account for the latency in some fashion, but high-end packages allow the user to set a global bias to the input signal - effectively making latency invisible to the user.

The comment about recording a lead in measure with a click is good advice, as it is much easier to line up the clear peaks of a 'click' than doing it just by ear. 

Also, by using the click method, you can take note of the amount of time you had to shift the second track, and write it down for future reference - since latency is a fixed constant for any system.

I did wonder a little if folks weren't going to 'butt heads' with this unforunate fact of reality. Sorry it's not more intuitive.  

 - Benig

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## Michael H Geimer

Jaded,
What attitude! There's just something really cool about the feel you've got going on ... static and all. Nice job! That's got mojo.

 - Benig

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## Nik-chick

Cool job everyone who's done it so far!

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## Jaded

thanks for the comments  And no the fuzziness wasn't intended per se, but it wasn't unexpected...my mic had an unfortunate encounter with my dawg &lt;g&gt;

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## harwilli55

Excellent Jaded....ya sound great......love the recording.....got that ole timers feel to it......thanks for putting yourself out there.....and thanks for taking the lead to get us beginners out from behind the woodshed

Harlan

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## jds4peace

I'm not trying to get in a tech discussion, but i have a piece of free software called Acid music that came with my computer that will do multi-track and playback while recording that doesnt have this issue with latency.
It may be the consequence of better software, different software, different methods or whatever but both programs use the same sound card....i wasn't cuttin' on the audacity folks, i'm a big fan of open source work, but
it seemed to me that if one piece of free software could avoid this problem most should be able to as well.

Now back to pickin'....Jaded, your version sounds sweet. Did you do a lot of down pickin' on that cut? sounded like it to me but i'm no expert listener...

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## jds4peace

Every time i listen to jaded's cut i like it even more....I've probably listened to it a dozen times now...great jamming during the second half.
That mando sounds real nice too...i needs me a gibson.

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## harwilli55

Gotta jump in and say that finally I am making progress with Sally.....We have a gig today with practice yesterday, so I had to put down Sally for a while.....picked it back up this morning for warmup....acutally played it through excepting of course for the double stops.....fingers found all the right notes.

I have a question for the more experienced beginners....my playing is choppy and not really melodic....how do you go about smoothing out the choppiness.....is it just repetition......this is a problem with all of my playing ....I have never been able to produce that smooth silky groove....any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Harlan

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## Bill James

Anyone know why it is that when I try to listen to Benig's MP3 Windows Media Player launches but then I get an error saying "failed to open the file"?

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## craig

bill,

try downloading the song to your computer, first. you shouldn't have a problem, then. if WMP still gives you trouble, you may want to try downloading the newest version of Realplayer or some other free audio software.

craig

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## Bluegrasstjej

> Originally Posted by  (jds4peace @ Mar. 11 2004, 10:55)
> 
> I'm havin' trouble matching the tracks up in audacity...when i play back my guitar rythm track
> and record the mando it sounds right on time, but when i play it back after recording its way off...any ideas?
> 
> 
> That's normal and discussed in the Audacity manual. #Basically, your mandolin playing mathces what you hear through the headphones or speakers when you play. #But the transmission and processing is not instananeous and so it goes on the recorded track a few milliseconds after the matching backing track. #You can hear that during recording if you have the soundcard set to monitoring: you hear your mandolin playing back through the headphone slightly after you've actually played it. #Terribly distracting, and therefore not recommended for actual recording! #When you've completed the recording, you have to shift one the tracks manually slightly to match the other. #You can do that either by trial-and-error or by putting a synchronisation marker at the beginning (or end) of your recorded track. #One way of doing that is to put a few bars of metronome at the beginning of your backing track and to tap along with it when you start your recording. #Matching the metronome with your tapping is much easier than matching the two music tracks -- you can do it by looking at the recorded signal rather than having to listen to it.
> 
> Martin


My goodness, thank you Martinjonas (are you Scandinavian, by the way? Your nick sounds really Swedish)!!! I realize that is exactly what is happening to me when I try to add a track with my chops, and it sounds just like ****. Then it's not my timing, it's the software. What you describe sounds really complicated though, I think I'll just try to cut bits out until the tracks syncronize. 
I've been really busy the past two weeks and haven't had any time to practice, at least not this week. I'm getting worried I'll have to drop Sally and be back in June or something on another tune (I'm starting my last clinical this week and during the clinicals I never have time to do anything else). I'll do my best with Sally though, I finally got the Tabledit version printed on my friend's printer and I want to try it. I may also just work on the slow recording (with no metronome) I've done before with the Bert Casey version.

When I finally had planned to buy new ink cardridges, I came home one day from school and found my printer on the floor (it usually stands on a shelf) and with a little tape-like thing on the floor, stamped by cat teeth. The little ####### has pulled down the printer and bitten off the tape that holds the cartridges in place. He's just mad! I'm glad I got an insurance!!!!!!! (I guess I'll have to add that my cat has been obsessed with the printer ever since I got it) And I'm glad it wasn't the mandolin...

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## jds4peace

bill,

also after you save the file to your desktop or where ever...if you right click on it there will be an option "Open with..."

that way you can choose which player you want to open it with...and in my opionion never choose Windows Media Player...it sucks.

just tryin' to help.

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## Bill James

Thanks guys, with your help, I got it working.

If my kids would hurry up and finish grade school, then high school, then college, then move out, then I finish my house and things slow down at work and I buy a mic I would have some time to record my own version and upload it. 

I'm trying but don't hold your breath!

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## Martin Jonas

> My goodness, thank you Martinjonas (are you Scandinavian, by the way? Your nick sounds really Swedish)!!! I realize that is exactly what is happening to me when I try to add a track with my chops, and it sounds just like ****. Then it's not my timing, it's the software. What you describe sounds really complicated though, I think I'll just try to cut bits out until the tracks syncronize.


Audacity has a built in function for timeshifting tracks in relation to each other (it's there for that very reason), so cutting out bits to make it match is not needed.

Martin
(German, not Swedish, but living in North Wales)

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## jds4peace

> I have a question for the more experienced beginners....my playing is choppy and not really melodic....how do you go about smoothing out the choppiness.....is it just repetition......this is a problem with all of my playing ....I have never been able to produce that smooth silky groove....any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Harlan


Harlan,

In my opinion the "groove" comes when you stop playin' notes and start playin' the song, if you know what i mean...in other words increase the length of your "phrases" or "parts" until your "phrase" is the whole break...

i'm no expert but i feel like my playing is better when i concentrate on the above...oh, and relax and try to feel the "groove"...its in there...

Hope this helps...

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## levin4now

I have only been practicing Sally Goodin', not matching it up to any backup tracks yet. I have been reading about "Click Tracks" and how to line up the recordings, but I figured you created a click track by recording a metronome or something. I didn't realize (and maybe some of you as well) that Audacity can create one for you easy as pie. Click on GENERATE and then CLICK TRACK. Set the tempo etc... and off you go.

Then again, I have been recording backup tracks, tracks of my kids playing in the bkgrnd, and blowing on a toy harmonica etc...When they see me recording they come running to add their vocal tracks!

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## Don Christy

Hey guys, i just posted my beginner's version to the yahoo files page. It's truly a beginner's version. This should lower the bar a bit and not intimidate other beginners.
Don

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## jds4peace

Congrats to Don for being the first to play the whole Tabledit version all the way through...respectable. I don't know if i'll be able to play that version by the end of the month or not. At first I was just goin' to do the easy version i knew from my bert casey book...but I started workin' on the TablEdit version we're supposed to try and its not as bad as it looked at first. If i can't get it up to par by the end of the month i'll post my easy version for you all to hear. Keep'em comin', i love comin' in to work to find a new version to listen to. Oh, and on another note, once we have all the posts for the month i wanted to offer to burn cd's of our tracks for those without burners. I'll use the standard B&P method. If you don't know what that is, its when you send me a blank disc and return postage and i'll send you the burnt cd back. Don't know how many people are without burners now-a-days but the offer is on the table. peace.

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## Don Christy

> Congrats to Don for being the first to play the whole Tabledit version all the way through...respectable. #





> Congrats to Don for being the first to play the whole Tabledit version all the way through...respectable


Played through once without repeats for three reasons:
1) didn't want to torture the group more than necessary
2) couldn't get close to playing with repeats without BIG screwups.
3) couldn't get through it with repeats without dogs whining

BTW, am I the only mandolinist wanna be who's dog HATES his playing?
Don

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## Michael H Geimer

> Congrats to Don for being the first to play the whole Tabledit version all the way through...respectable.


Kudos! Too bad about the critical canine. I have this thought that I'd love to raise a hound, but I'm sure I'd just end up with a 'howler' LOL!

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## levin4now

Congrats Don - I haven't heard it yet due to download limits on the yahoo site - I will have to wait till its on teh mandoproject site.

I was trying to get a recording done last night of the tef version too, but I was lacking some concentration and made too many larger blunders. Plus, I can't stand how bad some of my stuff sounded. Mistakes don't sound so bad when I am playing, but listening to my recordings? Man!

What type of mic did you use?

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## Don Christy

I used the crappy mic that came with my computer. Used Audacity. Did the melodie first and then added the simple chop track. Tried many times to use a click track, but found it distracting. I'll have to continue to work on this. Also, wanted a guitar track, but I'm even worse on guitar and wanted something between the 120 and 200 beat tracks that benignus posted.
Don

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## carolynbeth

Nice job Don! You should be proud....

I'm still working on mine -- it's not the end of the month yet, and I need all the practice time I can get! # 

And hey, if it makes you feel any better, my dog just gets up and leaves the room when I start playing. If the door is closed, he'll scratch at it until I let him out -- and the look he gives me as he's leaving speaks volumes....

Carolyn

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## levin4now

Beautiful job Don. I'd definitely say you are post-beginner though!

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## Don Christy

> Beautiful job Don. #I'd definitely say you are post-beginner though!


No, I'm definitely a beginner. You wouldn't believe how many takes it took to get something that I wasn't completely embarrased by. 

I've been playing for about 4-5 months. I take a lesson once a week (mostly old time music) and have gone to two or three old time jam sessions. THis thread was a great idea. I would have never gotten around to trying to record myself and I really enjoy listening to the other versions. I really enjoy playing and look forward to next month's song. 

I'm also completely new to recording. I think audacity is awesome for a free product.
Thanks Craig and everyone for creating and participating in this idea.
Don

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## Don Christy

> And hey, if it makes you feel any better, my dog just gets up and leaves the room when I start playing. If the door is closed, he'll scratch at it until I let him out -- and the look he gives me as he's leaving speaks volumes....


I was joking about the dogs whining. My dog Scout does exactly what yours does. She leaves the room. The worst is when my wife consoles Scout, "I know honey, it will be over soon..." That will usually cause me to play 'til my fingers bleed! 
Don

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## levin4now

don,

I read that you had been playing for 4 months - you are doing great. I have been seriously interested in the mandolin for the two years I think. On one hand I'm happy where I've gotten to, being self taught, but crave to be much much much better.

Alan

PS Motorcylce enthusiast, are you?

----------


## Jaded

Great job Don, the double stop section sounds real nice.

----------


## Don Christy

> PS Motorcylce enthusiast, are you?


Yeah, and i used to ride it a lot (Ducati ST2). with winter and a new hobby (the mando of course), I haven't ridden much lately. We'll see if the mando can compete with the bike once spring has sprung.
Don

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## ShaneJ

Don, that's great! Love the double stops.

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## Bluegrasstjej

> I have only been practicing Sally Goodin', not matching it up to any backup tracks yet. #I have been reading about "Click Tracks" and how to line up the recordings, but I figured you created a click track by recording a metronome or something. #I didn't realize (and maybe some of you as well) that Audacity can create one for you easy as pie. #Click on GENERATE and then CLICK TRACK. #Set the tempo etc... and off you go.
> 
> Then again, I have been recording backup tracks, tracks of my kids playing in the bkgrnd, and blowing on a toy harmonica etc...When they see me recording they come running to add their vocal tracks!


I can't see any option called GENERATE. Where do I find that or do I need a newer version of Audacity (I downloaded mine before Christmas)?

----------


## Bluegrasstjej

By the way, I really liked your version, Ducati!!!!!

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## craig

susanne,

yeah, i think you need to download the newer version of audacity. i don't remember there being a click track option on the old version. you can download it through the link on the mandolin project site.

Don,

super job! that's a hard version of sallyg to play all the way through without error. i've tried to record it several times and have failed. i'm sure it took you a few attempts and maybe a few ***** words  in the end, you put out a pretty flawless recording. you even got through those double-stops without stumbling or disturbing the rhythm. and, to only have been playing for months . . . nice one.

what do you like the most and what do you like the least about your recording?

craig

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## levin4now

Susanne,

The GENERATE menu is on the new version...

I don't know how these guys do it, but I tried recording with the click track and what happens is the click track gets recorded into the new track and you can't get rid of it. In fact, it sounds terrible because of the offset. 

I downloaded a metronome with a blinking light the other day but it sure doesn't "metronome" (is that a verb? ha ha). I will ahve to find another. Any recommendations anyone on a good blinking light PC metronome?

----------


## jds4peace

> the click track gets recorded into the new track and you can't get rid of it.


If you are using a mic to record your mando and need the click track you'll have to use headphones to keep the click out of the new track...unless for some reason the click gets automatically put into all new tracks...i haven't tried this so if i'm way off base don't hate me 

just tryin' to help.

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## craig

levin4now,

jds4peace is right. you can set the preferences in audacity so that the click track doesn't get recorded with your recording. but, you do have to use headphones as he suggested. i've tried it this way several times and it works. just have to get used to playing with headphones on.

craig

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## levin4now

That makes sense - I just didn't think about it when I first tried it, so it sounded (awful)ly funny hearing them together after.

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## craig

levin4now has his recording up!

i like what you did in the 4th part, alan! did you come up with that yourself or is it from a different version. anyway, it fits perfectly and it changes things up enough to keep it interesting. you're not being fair to yourself by claiming to "lower the bar".

good work!

craig

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## jds4peace

Good job Alan...this version of sally is really tuff, and lately i've been wondering if the seperate parts of this song where meant to be seperate breaks taken in turn cause playing this puppy all the way through is rough as heck.

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## harwilli55

Just when I needed some motivation....Alan and Don.....Great jobs......Thanks for keeping my heart in the practice....love the recordings......what a blast to hear and listen too...ya got me pumped up to keep working.

Harlan

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## Bluegrasstjej

Thanks levin4now! I'm so glad to hear someone not doing it so fast! I'm so impressed by beginners who do this version!!! You do a great job! Now I got some motivation back..
Actually, it doesn't seem quite as impossible before. I won't start my clinical until Monday and there isn't much I can do until then, more than read about breast cancer and hypothyreosis. So there'll be quite a lot of mandolin playing this weekend. I decided to drop both the metronome and the guitar track. I realized I have a few midi files on Sally, and I could record one of them as back-up, then my mandolin, and then take away the midi track. Then I have the rhythm, yes as a metronome but also with chords and bass which makes it a whole lot easier. I even found a site with midi back-up files only, not the melody instruments. It's awesome! I still have the problem to have Audacity syncronize the tracks, so I've recorded one file only. It's the best so far, so if I can't make a better one I'm going to use it and post it real soon. I think I've been the greatest complainer in here - sorry guys. I've just been so frustrated about this metronome and synchronizing thing, I haven't been able to do any recording even if I've learned the tune (it seems like most of you play the guitar and can make your own back-up - you're so lucky!). Now I think it will work out after all (and I can learn playing with metronomes in my own pace).

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## Bluegrasstjej

> Susanne,
> 
> The GENERATE menu is on the new version...
> 
> I don't know how these guys do it, but I tried recording with the click track and what happens is the click track gets recorded into the new track and you can't get rid of it. In fact, it sounds terrible because of the offset. #
> 
> I downloaded a metronome with a blinking light the other day but it sure doesn't "metronome" (is that a verb? ha ha). #I will ahve to find another. #Any recommendations anyone on a good blinking light PC metronome?


Thanks a lot (and craig too)! I downloaded it just now and it looks great. Don't know if I'll use the click track but it's good to know it's there.

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## jds4peace

Nice job bluegrasstjej...if i'm not mistaken thats a morph of the bert casey version with the tabledit version. The bert casey book was the book i bought when i got my mando, i really liked it because of the cd that came with it. Having a slow, medium, and fast track with backups was really cool. On a side note, i'm goin to see Del McCoury Band tonight and I'm completely psyched to see them again. I'm gonna try to get as close to ronnie as possible to see if some of his spicy licks will rub off on me by osmosis..hahhaha.

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## Bluegrasstjej

Coool! I almost got to see them with Steve Earle in Cork 1999, but all the tickets were sold out. What a shame! I'm sure you're going to have a great time!

Most of my Sally is from the Bert Casey version, then I've just played around a little bit with the endings. I love that Bert Casey book too. I started with Jack Tottle, but he goes from beginner to advanced in a few pages, so I just left it and was delighted to find Bert Casey's book and tape (now I have it on CD too). It's very well made for beginners.

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## harwilli55

Bluegrasstej!! Way to go!!! I am liking the variations you used....feet tapping as I listen.....Congrats on a fine recording!!!

Harlan

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## Martin Jonas

Well, I have posted my version now. Straight mandolin track, no backing, first three parts of the Co-Mando arrangement once through, no double stops. The whole thing is there twice, once with my Washburn M3-SW, then with my vintage 1930s Majestic flattop (my grandfather's mandolin). I'm surprised the two mandolins don't sound more different on the recording; they sound and feel completely different to me when I'm playing.

I'm not terribly happy with the result: the timing isn't great in a few places and it gets very squeezed towards the end of the second part. I have the feeling I was playing much more fluently in practice than I managed in the study with the microphone on and I've been gripping my plectrum more tightly than I should, which hurts the tone. I guess everybody feels that way. But it's a single take for each mandolin: no edits except for the gap in switching mandolins, no post-processing or reverb added. It's not the *only* take, though, there are quite a few that I threw away.

I have been practising the fourth and fifth part as well, and I can sort-of play them, but not nearly fluently enough to commit them to anybody else's ears, even in such a supportive forum as this one.

Martin

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## craig

just a "quick post" to let you know that martin's song is up on the MP site y'all! try to have a listen and let him know what you think.

i'll have a listen in the a.m. it's 3 a.m. here now, and i'm going to bed!

craig

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## Bluegrasstjej

As usual I'm very impressed with everyone who tries the tabledit version and who manages to do it well without back-up! It sounds good! I never managed to do the rests in tabledit's version. I can read sheet music well if it's plain notes and no strange things such as rests or too many dotted notes (can do them if it's like a dotted eighth followed by a 16th). My knowledge of music theory flew away a long time ago.
You say you did it better while practicing and threw away a few recordings. Well, don't we all, don't we all....
What kind of mandolin is a Washburn M3-SW? What does it look like? I have a Washburn too. Probably A-style, don't even know what type of mandolin I have. Thought all mandolins with f-holes were f-style but I've been proved to be wrong.

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## Bluegrasstjej

> Bluegrasstej!! Way to go!!! #I am liking the variations you used....feet tapping as I listen.....Congrats on a fine recording!!!
> 
> Harlan


Harlan! Thanks!

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## Don Christy

Levin4now,
Great job! I like the variations you throw into the fourth part.
Don

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## Don Christy

Bluegrasstjej
Cool version. I really like how everyone takes a slightly different approach and makes it their own. Good job!
Don

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## Don Christy

martinjonas,
cool - two different mandos. I didn't detect it the first listen, but just listened again and the tone is different. Seems like your playing changes a bit too. How would you say the mandos differ in playability??
Don

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## Don Christy

This is a truly cool project. I've learned so much trying to work through this song. The encouragement that this group of players of various talent provides is great. I can't wait for next month.

I hope Cherokee Shuffle or Bonaparte's Retreat win (I already know a couple versions of Fisher's Hornpipe).
Don

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## Martin Jonas

Thanks for your kind words, Bluegrasstjej!. The M3-SW is Washburn's copy of the F5 design. Here's the link to Washburn's homepage for the M3-SW. It's factory-made of course (like all Washburns), but all solid hand-carved wood. The 1989 model I have is quite a bit darker than the current model (a brown-black two-colour sunburst rather than the three-colour yellow-brown-black) and I think it looks a good deal nicer. I'm also told that the 1980s M3-SWs had a better reputation than the current ones. Mine certainly plays well enough for my standard of playing and its tone improved quite a bit when I replaced the stock rosewood bridge with a Cumberland ebony bridge. It's a *heavy* mandolin, though: thick wood all around and thick gloss, weighing easily twice as much as my Majestic flattop (which is very diaphanous) and a good deal more than the Kentucky KM-380s. That's not usually a good sign for volume and tone, but it seems loud enough to me.

Ducati08: Both mandolins are very playable. The Majestic has a bit higher action (non-adjustable) and wider string spacing especially at the G-string. This is compensated to some extent by the lower string tension, so both are fun and easy. When playing, the Majestic seems quite boomy and the Washburn more tidy and controlled, but as that's not on the recorded track, it's probably to a large extent the different sound projection of the two designs. There's not much between them in terms of volume (both takes are recorded with the same settings and the same microphone placement, so what you hear is the natural difference in volume).

The main reason why the playing seems different is probably that I did all my practising (and almost all of the aborted takes) of Sally Goodin on the Washburn. Switching to the Majestic then made the playing a bit more hesitant: the scale length is only 13", almost one inch shorter than the Washburn, so all of the fret positions shift slightly. In addition, the fingerboard is a bit narrower, so muscle memory has to be adjusted a bit. I also used a different plectrum, as I find that a plectrum that suits one doesn't suit the other. I only did two takes on the Majestic right at the end of my recording session: the one you hear is the second one. Generally, I find that some tunes sound right on one mando, but don't work at all on the other and vice versa (the Majestic is emphatically not a bluegrass mando, but great on Celtic stuff), but for most tunes it's just a different flavour with neither being obviously superior.

Martin

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## craig

martin,

had a chance to listen to your recording. it's cool that you used two different mandos! i thought they were remarkably different in sound. the washburn seemed to have more volume and resonance, and the vintage majestic was mellower with a bit more "gut". did you use the same pic on both instruments?

i'm definitely leaving out those double-stops, too. thanks for posting your song!

craig

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## jaizbones

Craig, This is a great thing you have started. You should get the Nobel 
Peace Prize or at least a pat on the back.  
On a more practical note I have not been able to download from the yahoo site and #2 was looking for the words to SG and I know they are here somewhere. ???

Keep Up!

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## craig

jaizbones,

thanks!

go to the mainpage: Mandolin Project to download the songs. i've deleted the songs from the Files at Yahoo! Groups because the bandwidth gets overloaded pretty quickly there. the best way to download the songs from the MP page is to right click and save to your computer. let me know if you have any trouble.

the words to sallyg are somewhere here. try further on back in this thread or maybe the first "calling all beginners" thread. i believe benignus posted them somewhere here. of course, nik-chick put together a nice female version, too 

good luck, and keep on pickin'!! just 10 days 'til we start a new song!!

craig

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## Michael H Geimer

"Generally, I find that some tunes sound right on one mando, but don't work at all on the other and vice versa ..."

LOL! That, of course, is how I explain the need each new instrument purchase!

I really enjoyed hearing the two mandolins. I thought they each sounded quite different, the Majestic being my favorite. But, they both sounded great. I find that not only do some songs seem to 'fit' with certain instruments, but also that certain instruments do better in various ensembles than others do. It's always fun trying out different arrangements, even those times when it doesn't turn out so well.

Great job!

 - Benignus

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## Bluegrasstjej

> Thanks for your kind words, Bluegrasstjej!. #The M3-SW is Washburn's copy of the F5 design. #Here's the link to Washburn's homepage for the M3-SW. #It's factory-made of course (like all Washburns), but all solid hand-carved wood. #The 1989 model I have is quite a bit darker than the current model (a brown-black two-colour sunburst rather than the three-colour yellow-brown-black) and I think it looks a good deal nicer. #I'm also told that the 1980s M3-SWs had a better reputation than the current ones. #Mine certainly plays well enough for my standard of playing and its tone improved quite a bit when I replaced the stock rosewood bridge with a Cumberland ebony bridge. #It's a *heavy* mandolin, though: thick wood all around and thick gloss, weighing easily twice as much as my Majestic flattop (which is very diaphanous) and a good deal more than the Kentucky KM-380s. #That's not usually a good sign for volume and tone, but it seems loud enough to me.


Thanks for the link! I found out on that site that mine must be an M2SW. It's good to have a name of the model. 
From my experience, a heavy mandolin of solid wood makes the best sound for playing bluegrass. The chops come out much better and you get that deeper tone (hard to explain).

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## Martin Jonas

Craig/Benignus,

Thanks for your comments. Yes, they do sound different, but not as different on the MP3 as they sound to me when playing. I've used different picks: I play the Washburn with a pretty stiff Wegen 1.0mm bluegrass guitar pick and the Majestic with a more flexible Jim Dunlop 1.0mm nylon pick. It seems to suit their respective basic tone best that way. I'm not so sure that the Washburn has more volume; I think it's mostly that it's less mellow (just the normal difference between carved archtops and flattops, I think). I really don't think I did the Washburn justice on the track; the pick hold isn't loose enough and with a stiff pick like the Wegen that translates into a harsher, more pinched sound than I know the instrument is capable of.

I love the Majestic dearly, not least because it's been in the family for 70 years or so, but I find myself using the Washburn more at the moment. That's partially because I've only had it for a few weeks and it's the thrill of novelty, but also because it's a much more conventional bluegrass mandolin and therefore it's easier to use the vast wealth of tips and instructional material that's on the 'net and in DVDs and books. This way, when things don't sound like they should, I know it's me, not the mandolin. However, I don't think I'll ever abandon the Majestic completely, while it's quite possible that at some stage in the foreseable future I'll upgrade the Washburn to a decent handmade A-style, maybe a Capek, a Weber Absaroka or a Gibson A-9.

Martin

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## levin4now

great job martin. I enjoyed it. 

Your recording had good volume and no hiss. Mine hissed like a SOAG (son of a gun!) and you had to turn it up to hear me. I had the mic 8" away from teh mando, adn my mando isn't quiet. I used an el cheapo mic that came with a computer.

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## craig

iampeterfonda has posted his song and it is cooooooollll  #very fun. #nice job clayton (and the claytones)! #you got an accordion in the band or is that a synth? #how long you guys been a band?

thanks for sharing!!

craig

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## iampeterfonda

Thanks Craig,

The band is made up of accordion, two guitars (or one guitar and second mandolin), and mandolin. We were also lucky enough to get a bass player for this gig too. 

We actually only do one or two gigs a year as Clayton and the Claytones but Ive been playing with them on other things since I started mandolin about 4 years ago. The thing I like best about the band is that theyre all better than me and Ive got to work to keep up. 

Id been working on the TEF version of Sally Goodin since just before the project started and thought that wed be doing a pretty traditional version which is what we practiced, but when the bass player showed up for the dress rehearsal it just turned into this funky thing.

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## Michael H Geimer

iampeterfonda,
You get my vote for 'Most Danceable'. That was a fun ride ... I might have to go again. 

- Benig

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## harwilli55

Definitely high energry iampetefonda, I agree with Benig "Most Danceable" hands down. Love the free flowing spirit ya'll got in that band, excellent breaks on the mando and love the accordian break too.

You're a hard act to foller!! Just put my little one up there too.

Harlan

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## craig

harwilli55,

you made this one you're own! like you said, it's pretty amazing how different everyone's sounds. i had hoped it would be like that, but they're even more different than i thought they would be.

us non-singers are truly impressed with these vocal versions! harwilli, you've almost got a little garcia in ya'. clayton's got my vote for "Most Danceable", too . . . but, you get my vote for "Most Soul"!

Thanks, i'm gonna go listen again . . .

craig

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## jaizbones

The Audacity software got a big thumbs up from Leo LaPorte on Call For Help at Tech TV. I have been using Music Creator Cakewalk but will definitely try Aud.

Later

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## craig

just four days! how's all the rest of you coming along with sallyg?! we've 10 recordings and 103 members; a few more recordings to go. of course, you can submit your sallyg recording anytime, but a little pressure never hurts in the way of motivation. hope to put mine up tomorrow regardless of what it sounds like.

also, the poll closes for the April tune on March 31st, so be heard now or forever hold your peace.

hope you're all still having fun with this project! it's been awful quiet around here lately . . .

cheers,

craig

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## craig

dasspunk has his/her(?) recording up! very clear!! it's short, but flawless. i really like the sound of your mando (or, should i say, the way you make your mando sound). it's got depth. what is it? 

thanks for the inspiration!

craig

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## Brian Ray

I have to say, I think this is just a great idea and fantastic use of the Cafe. I'm also happy to see that most of the tunes that are being selected are songs I don't already know. I'm planning on joining in on any and all future tunes...

My mando is a Rose built for me by Darby Boofer in VA. 

Thank you for having me...

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## chirorehab

Well, I just uploaded my attempt.. I think my timing is awful.. I can't believe I actually uploaded the file!

I did have fun making the track though!

Eric

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## harwilli55

Bravo!!!!!!!! Bravo !!!!! Dasspunk great timing and melodic....nice swing feel. 

Bravo !!!! Way to Go!!!Eric, even though the recording is muddy, you are getting Sally down...keep up the good work.

Tis a brave and courageous thing to do to put your work up where any and all can hear it. I teach guitar and know how my students feel playing in public for their first time, especially solo....the first time is the worst, each time after that gets better and better.

Still waiting for more recordings...I am loving this project Craig and am excited about next month's tune o' the month.

Harlan

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## Bluegrasstjej

Dasspunk, your Sally is just wonderful!! I love those thingys going on in the background. 
Chirorehab, your mando sounds clean and nice and I just love your ending!!! (I really like harmonies) Nice version! Your chops are much cleaner than mine, too. I didn't even have the courage to show off my chops. Not even if I'd made the software work properly.

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## craig

my recording is up. #it took a ridiculous number of takes to get it. #i'm happy with it, but there's definitely room for improvement. #but, isn't that why we all love learning music anyway?

i'd like to welcome some constructive criticism. even though i can listen to myself, it's difficult to imagine what others hear. so, go ahead, fire away!

thanks for listening . . .

craig

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## carolynbeth

Ok, mine's up....or at least I think it is.... The only way I could export my file was in WAV format; still having trouble with the Lame encoder, so I couldn't do it as an Mp3. I'll keep trying.

Whew.....this has been quite an experience. I didn't keep track of the number of takes (a LOT) and my timing still sucks, but it was a lot of fun -- and definitely a challenge! 

Have to go listen to Craig's now.....  

Carolyn

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## Bluegrasstjej

Craig!!!!!
You sound awesome! You get a real drive in your playing, I like that a lot. Great job!! There was some whining noise in the background (probably the speakers or the microphone), that's the only negative thing I have to say. Keep up the good work, bud! And I'm the only coward who didn't dare to try the new version!

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## chirorehab

Harlan & Bluegrasstjej,

Thanks for the positive words! 

Eric

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## craig

bluegrasstjej,

thanks for the compliments! very generous! yeah, that stupid background noise is the hard-drive on my computer. i'm using the built in mic on the thing for now. been too cheap to go out and get an external one. i eliminated 90% of it with the Audacity "Noise Removal" option, but there's still some there. anyway, thanks!


carolyn,

just checked for your recording at Yahoo!Groups and don't see it there. if you want to, e-mail it to me and i'll convert it to MP3 and post it up at the Mandolin Project site:  drchenson@yahoo.com

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## jds4peace

What a nice monday, 3 new versions to sample...
Very nice versions too, gotta respect trying this one its a real toughie.

Well, time is quickly runnin' out and I still don't have a recording of this version that i feel good about, but
I'll definitely post the best i have by wednesday. Don't want points taken off for bein' late. 

Oh, and by the way GO FISHER'S HORNPIPE!!!

peace

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## Michael H Geimer

Dasspunk, you have great tone, #... and that's more than your axe ... plus great timing and feel. Short and sweet is just fine, if you always play 'em like that! 

Eric, Great job! I'm ' 'a little bit' impressed that the Audacity softwares allows sound-on-sound, but I'm *a whole lot* impressed that so many people are making use of it for this project. Excellent work!

Craig ... what can I say? Our Fearless Leader has spoken.  Any compliments I can (and do) offer on your mp3, pale in comparison to praise you deserve for starting this whole thing! 'We are not worthy ... We are not worthy."

 - Benignus

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## craig

chirorehab,

nice job pal! #as benignus said, i'm truly impressed with you'all doing the back-up tracks and all. #the chops sound good. #the switch from D to E to B and back to A is not easy. #you did well with it, though. #i like the chord arrangement for the song. #that B sounds good in there. #anyway, nice one!

benignus,

thank you, thank you! #love the support on this site! #what a great group we have here.

craig

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## chirorehab

Benig,

Thanks! I have to admit, that I was a little intimadated by your version! Now if I could only figure out how to make the recording "less muddy"! But with an $11 mic, I guess you get what you paid for!

Craig,

Thanks! This is such a great idea! At first I ignored the whole thing. But, I started secretly learning the tune! Then I followed your advice and got Audacity & a cheap mic. And what do you know! I actually had the "cajones" to upload my version! 

Thanks again,

Eric

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## craig

well, well, well! #kkallaur (eyesoftheworld38) put up his recording and it is complete! #i mean he does ALL of the repeats and ALL of the doublestops (kowtow, kowtow, kowtow). #how'd you manage that all the way through without flubbing up? #standing O for that one! #you da man, ken.

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## harwilli55

WOW!!! Double WOW!! Triple WOW!!! Just downloaded the three new uploaded versions!!! 

Craig Awesome Job!!! Excellent timing, great swing feel. Loved the recording. Don't know how you find the time with school, keeping all of us in line, posting, helping, lining this whole project up. As Benig says....We Very Humbly Bow. 

Carolyn, Super, Right On the money.....you are hitting the mark right through the whole tune......love the the double stops...Congrats!!!!

And Cam, that ain't no beginner playing...so smooth and excellent....thanks for posting that....why don't you and begnig lay down some tracks and put them through Audactiy for us.

I always vote for the underdog....Go Boney!!!!!


Harlan

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## mandoman88

Okay, I posted a seperate thread about this, but got no responses. I'm using audacity and it records fine, but when it plays back it skips every 10 seconds or so. This is getting really frusterating and I would appreciate any help. Could there be some process that it's programmed to perform every 10 seconds that makes it record that way? Thanks.
~james

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## craig

whewwwwwww! after a some sweat, tears and few 4 letter words we got carolyn's show up . . . and, it was worth the wait! great job carolyn!! good pace and you synched well with the guitar accompaniment.

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## cam

> Okay, I posted a seperate thread about this, but got no responses. I'm using audacity and it records fine, but when it plays back it skips every 10 seconds or so. This is getting really frusterating and I would appreciate any help. Could there be some process that it's programmed to perform every 10 seconds that makes it record that way? Thanks.
> ~james


Hi James, here's a link that might have the info you need (I don't know how reliable the info is): It talks about "Skips" under the problems section:
http://audacityteam.org/wiki/index.pl?RecordingTips

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## jds4peace

> well, well, well! kkallaur (eyesoftheworld38) put up his recording and it is complete!


very, very nice work...i'm impressed.

welp tonights the last night to get my recording done...i sure hope i can get one thats worth a darn. If not i always got my bert casey easy version to fall back on, but i really would like to get this tabledit one down.

signed:
Cherokee-Hornpiper

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## carolynbeth

Thanks Craig for all your help! and yes, there were quite a few four-letter words being flung around before I finally got it figured out... :Smile:  And thanks Harlan for your feedback -- and for your submission too, great work. One of the most interesting things about this project is how different and unique everyone's versions are from one another....

This is the first time I've ever recorded my own playing -- it was pretty strange at first...kind of like hearing your own voice on an answering machine for the first time...(THAT'S what I sound like???) # 

Really liked Craig's version -- great pace and timing, clear tone ( how do you DO that?) and Ken, that's an awesome job -- and what an accomplishment to play all the way through, repeats and all, without any mistakes! I second Craig's "standing O"...

And Cam's flatpicking is just outstanding. Wow.

Well, onward and upward -- go Cherokee Shuffle!

Carolyn

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## Bluegrasstjej

Eyes of the world: Great recording!!! I'm so amazed you do it with a metronome only (at least it sounds like that)! As y'all may know I got in conflict with my metronome so I just gave it up and found midi tracks instead.
It sounds great and you get the doubles stops too. Terrific! How long have you been playing??

Carolyn: Great stuff! You did it and it sounds good! Clean tone and you do it well. Keep up the good work! Is that you playing the guitar?

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## kkallaur

Thanks everyone for all the encouraging remarks. #All the recordings are great so far and this has been a great learning and motivational experience. What I think would be really cool is for us all to record the same song six months or a year from now so we can hear how we've improved. # 

The person who truly deserves a standing O is Craig for coming up with this whole idea and for being the organizer as well as the head cheerleader. 

BluegrassTej,
I've been playing for about a year and half now and the recording was done without a metronome or click track. #When I was a kid I played bass drum in a Drum and Bugle Corp, which helped me develop a good internal metronome. The thing I need to work on now is getting that Old Time Swing down. #

I really look forward to hearing some more versions of Sally Goodin. # # 

 #

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## craig

ken,

thanks for the remarks. but, this wouldn't be much of a project without the other 109 of ya!

thanks for being a part of it!!

craig

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## carolynbeth

Thanks bluegrasstjej! and yes, that was me on guitar -- I was going to try and add in some mando chops, but decided I had neglected my family enough for one Sunday... :Smile: 

I like Ken's idea of re-recording these tunes down the road to see how we've improved ...I bet we'd all surprise ourselves! 

Carolyn

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## Bluegrasstjej

I agree! That would be interesting.

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## jds4peace

Can i file for an extension?

I really think i could get a good cut of this given one more night to try.
Does anyone mind if i post mine tomorrow (apr 1st)?

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## harwilli55

I agree with Carolyn.....6 month revisit Sally....and Craig said that you can post Sally anytime jds4peace....I for one hope that you will post. Tis good for the soul and I have learned something new from each posting so far, and I expect to learn something from yours too. Go for it!!!!

Harlan

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## craig

jds4peace,

no problem. there's no rush. i just set a one month deadline so that we had a target and to keep us all inspired. take your time. you can't rush art  

craig

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## jds4peace

muchos gracias amigos

i really want to do a good job on this one...i started off not liking the arrangement but i've found that its pretty fun to play!

the old timey group that i sit in with does cherokee shuffle so i guess i'm not gonna be too mad about not gettin' to do fisher's
pipe, i love that song I've got a version of thile and bush doin it from rockygrass, and actually its a portion of a whole set that
included: grisman, mccoury, bush, thile, and marshall. I believe they called themselves "Just Some Mandolin Pickers" for that set.
Its an outrageous conglomeration of mando madness...its not copyrighted and free to trade/share. If anyone is interested in hearing
this show let me know....

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## levin4now

I hope to incorporate either some mando chop or guitar on one of these recordings sooner or later. Everyone's sounds so good! I will have to dig up my headphones somewhere I guess.

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## Nik-chick

LATE WORK: AG! I am snowed under today, not going to be home before quiet hours are over tomarrow and leaving town imediately after class Friday (as I always do...I work weekends in Nashville and stay with my folks on those days, this time I have a project to work on that I MUST leave early for  ). Will you accept my file Monday for half-credit?

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## craig

nik,

well, since you're going to nashville, that's a pretty good excuse for anything to a fellow bluegrasser  have fun!! looking forward to hearing your tune . . .

craig

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## Michael H Geimer

" Will you accept my file Monday for half-credit? "

Mr. Henderson, my ... [ahem] ... dog, Dobie ... kinda, sorta ... ate my Mp3!

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## craig

when you're finished shake your head at the shame of handing in the assignment late (tisk, tisk, tisk), give jds4peace a listen  it's a large file (3509 KB), but well worth the download time!! have to give this one a "Most Danceable" nomination, too. jesse, you are rolling on this song! nice work.

cheers,

craig

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