# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Alternative woods for fretboards?

## Steve Sorensen

What other woods work well for fretboards?

Any dark colored native US woods?

I'm also curious to know if anyone has experience using Bubinga?

Thanks,
Steve

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## sunburst

Nothing US native that is black like ebony or even dark like rosewood. Mesquite is good, and fairly dark. I want to get some and try it.

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## multidon

Kreutzer/Bulldog has used persimmon. I am curious about it. I have heard it has hardness close to ebony but it has to be dyed to darken it. I don't personally think a fingerboard has to necessarily be dark. If there is a species hard enough with the right properties why not just leave it natural?

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## sunburst

> ...If there is a species hard enough with the right properties why not just leave it natural?


Main reason; to sell instruments. The mandolin market demands a body with two points, one scroll, a sunburst finish, a black fingerboard and peghead overlay. Anything else is "different". Those have their place in the market too, but it's a smaller market, and each thing you change puts you farther from the main mandolin market.
The only real practical reason for a dark colored fingerboard is the smudgy, grungy look that a light colored fingerboard tends to develop from the players fingers. That doesn't happen with dark 'boards.
An ideal fingerboard wood is hard but not too brittle, stiff, stable, is close grained (small pores) and smooth. Ebony has most of those characteristics though it's not very stable, rosewood has large pores and is softer, so we're generally not dealing with ideal woods for fingerboards anyway. Sugar maple, black locust, osage orange, persimmon, and mesquite are good native US candidates if color is not a concern. There are probably others I haven't thought of or don't know of, but nothing as dark and traditional looking as ebony.

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## Steve Sorensen

Thanks John.  Mesquite is very interesting.

Regarding, "two points, one scroll, a sunburst finish, a black fingerboard and peghead overlay..." 

Although it might be controversial with some, I sure hope the jamband generation keeps adding mandolins to their music -- and that they will be interested in instruments that have evolved a little since 1923 . . . and that their youthful openness continues to trickle into the bluegrass community.

Steve

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## pelone

I agree with Sunburst---I have used black locust, bubinga, bloodwood, rosewood and others and have enjoyed the outcome.  the black locust has a wonderful yellow-orange cast to it and is dense with small pores that take a finish well--it looks nice when also used in the headstock overlay.  But--if you are making this instrument for a potential buyer you cannot go wrong with ebony-the customer wants what the customer wants and will not, generally, be open to new designs or concepts.

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## SGraham

Desert ironwood makes a stunning looking, hard fretboard.

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## coreybox

Some guitar builders have been experimenting with roasted/burnt/caramelized/vulcanized maple for necks and fretboards. This is a special process that heats the wood up in an oxygen free environment. It turns the wood a dark brown color. The resulting maple has greater stability, is not effected by humidity, but is more brittle.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Main reason; to sell instruments. The mandolin market demands a body with two points, one scroll, a sunburst finish, a black fingerboard and peghead overlay. Anything else is "different". Those have their place in the market too, but it's a smaller market, and each thing you change puts you farther from the main mandolin market.
> The only real practical reason for a dark colored fingerboard is the smudgy, grungy look that a light colored fingerboard tends to develop from the players fingers. That doesn't happen with dark 'boards.
> An ideal fingerboard wood is hard but not too brittle, stiff, stable, is close grained (small pores) and smooth. Ebony has most of those characteristics though it's not very stable, rosewood has large pores and is softer, so we're generally not dealing with ideal woods for fingerboards anyway. Sugar maple, black locust, osage orange, persimmon, and mesquite are good native US candidates if color is not a concern. There are probably others I haven't thought of or don't know of, but nothing as dark and traditional looking as ebony.


Persimmon is very attractive (to me at least) from the standpoint that it is a native North American tree species that is a member of the ebony genus Diospyros.    As far as I know here in Ohio we have only one species (_Diospyros virginiana_) and it is found mostly in the unglaciated southeastern part of the state but I have seen the tree growing at least as far north as Cleveland so it is, apparently, not particularly cold-intolerant.  
I have never seen one more than 20 or 25 feet tall and not with a very thick of a trunk either.  Although one of the State foresters told me once that its growth rate is actually faster than something like a sugar maple for example and that it can get to 50 feet?  

The other interesting part is the persimmon fruit which many people like to eat especially after it has ripened and frozen -- making it sweet.  As far as I know the wood is mostly used for pool cues.  

John, is persimmon wood easily obtained?  I do not recall seeing in places like Rocklers for example.

Some pics of persimmon aspects to ponder...

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## Bernie Daniel

> Some guitar builders have been experimenting with roasted/burnt/caramelized/vulcanized maple for necks and fretboards. This is a special process that heats the wood up in an oxygen free environment. It turns the wood a dark brown color. The resulting maple has greater stability, is not effected by humidity, but is more brittle. 
> 
> [imgae deleted]


That is some very attractive looking wood!

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## sunburst

I have persimmon (Diospyros virginiana) trees in my yard at least 40 feet tall, maybe 50 feet. The diameter is only 7" or 8" though. I've seen a few in fence rows that were maybe 18" in diameter, about as big as foresters say it gets. The persimmon wood I've seen has been mostly light colored and not particularly attractive, but I understand that some heartwood is darker. I haven't completely given up on finding fingerboard material in a persimmon tree, but so far it hasn't happened.

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## oldwave maker

I've used local canyon black walnut, mountain mahogany, desert ironwood, catclaw acacia, and mesquite. Mesquite seems a tad brittle, I dont know how the chunk between the 28th and 29th fret would do with pressing or whacking the fret in. Using some old ziricote from mexico lately and wishing they all smelled like brazilian rosewood!

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## multidon

http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/...uery=retrieval

John, you say you aren't able to get persimmon that is suitable for fingerboards. Does anyone know where Barry Kratzer got the fingerboard for this? I like the idea of persimmon, since it's a North American native wood that is apparently related to ebony. Barry dyed his to meet that "market demand" for dark wood that John speaks of. This mandolin has been listed at least 3 times and no takers yet. It's a shame, it looks like a nice instrument and a bargain at 400 dollars too. I would like the idea of a mandolin made ENTIRELY of suitable North American wood, nothing tropical. I don't think I have ever seen one though. My birch/walnut/maple Floodtone qualifies except for the rosewood fretboard. I have a picture in my mind of an instrument with a cedar top, flamed walnut back and sides, maple neck, and one of those dyed persimmon boards. A 100 percent American wood instrument. Nothing endangered. Nothing tropical. Could it be done?

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## Bernie Daniel

What about Sassafrass as an fretboard wood?  I have a number of sassafras trees (_Sassafras albidum_) growing in an old fence line that runs across the edge of my property.  They do not amount to much because a powerline runs along it now and the tree butchers that the township sends out every few years have basically ruined them.

The trees often lose branches in wind events and a couple of times I have taken those branches down to the shop and I find the wood light colored but also quite hard.  

The trees will grow to a considerable size in the right environment reaching over 100 feet apparently.  Anyone work with that?

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## thistle3585

I've been looking for a native fingerboard material but that means I need to either find someone willing to slot my fretboards using my wood or buy the setup to do it myself.  My problem is that I use some non-traditional scale lengths so I can't buy stock slotting jigs.  Here's Gibson's approach to the issue.  http://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/ne...134531858.html

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## Bernie Daniel

> ...I would like the idea of a mandolin made ENTIRELY of suitable North American wood, nothing tropical. I don't think I have ever seen one though. My birch/walnut/maple Floodtone qualifies except for the rosewood fretboard. I have a picture in my mind of an instrument with a cedar top, flamed walnut back and sides, maple neck, and one of those dyed persimmon boards. A 100 percent American wood instrument. Nothing endangered. Nothing tropical. Could it be done?


That is exactly what I was thinking too...it would be really neat.  And I'm no builder but would it be so hard to do?  The backs, sides, top and neck and easily be made of North American woods so you "only" have to solve the fretboard and bridge issue?

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## Pete Summers

> The other interesting part is the persimmon fruit which many people like to eat especially after it has ripened and frozen -- making it sweet.  As far as I know the wood is mostly used for pool cues.  
> 
> ...


They better wait until it's ripened. Ever eat a green persimmon?
 :Grin:

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## eastmountain

I recently made a fretboard out of walnut and loved it.  Dark, but not like ebony.  I've just sort of fallen in love with walnut; I'd like to make a whole mandolin out of walnut.

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## Chip Booth

I had an instrument made with a cocobolo fretboard that looked and worked great.

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## oldwave maker

All woods from New Improved Mexico, even the resin in the varnish!
http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/...uery=retrieval

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## Willie Poole

Persimmon at one time was used to make the wooden golf clubs and was rated as one of the hardest woods in America so I think it would do well as a fingerboard....Some instruments have dyed wood being used as fingerboards and after playing them for a few years the dye wears off and they look terrible...Bass fiddles come to mind....

   I refurbished a banjo mandolin and used maple as the fingerboard but it is just a wall hanger, I don`t ever play it....Anymore....

   Willie

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## Bernie Daniel

> They better wait until it's ripened. Ever eat a green persimmon?  grin:


In addition to permanently puckering your mouth, hear you can save $$ that you might have spent on Ex-Lax?  You know I wonder if anyone has added those soluble tannins to spice up red wine?

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## George R. Lane

Ah, for the days when Arnold Palmer would drive the ball 300 yards with his persimmon driver. I would think persimmon would make a great fretboard, some of the old golf clubs were dyed a darker color and they held up quite well under more punishment than a fretboard ever would.

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## tkdboyd

Never been an ardent tree hugger, but I love persimmon pudding. It is difficult enough to procure the pulp with the lack of trees left. Don't take them for fingerboards. Fender, with their Strats and Teles have done very well with their maple fingerboards, time for us traditional types to convert, for the sake of the pudding---For the love of Persimmons, think of the Pudding! 

Full disclosure: My mandolins, guitars, bass, etc... have ebony or rosewood fretboards.

PS One other mighty fine thing Jim Richter can do besides play some mean blues on the mandolin and guitar (fine banjo picker too!) is make some fabulous Persimmon Pudding.

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## tree

I was hoping someone would bring up persimming pudding!  As luck has it I am making one tonight to take to a friend we are visiting over the weekend.  No lack of persimmon trees in the upstate of SC, though - you just have to dial in what they look like and you'll start seeing them everywhere.

I don't know about age-altered wood (true "heartwood"), but _D. virginiana_ produces very beautiful dark colored wood in response to injury.  I've picked up decent pieces (12" diameter, firewood length) off utility rights-of-way that had lovely dark chocolate colored wood, and the transition zone between "normal" colored wood and discolored wood was stunning.  The wood was not decayed at all that I could tell, and very hard. I sliced it thin and made a shaker oval box out of it that I really like.

Persimmons are not too difficult to process for pulp if you have the right equipment: either an old conical colander with the wooden pestle or a Foley Food mill.  Frost isn't a requirement either, though it is a common belief.  All you need to look for is fruit that is very soft, typically after it has fallen (which is why I prefer to harvest from yard trees where the turf is well maintained).  The pulp freezes very well; I'm still working through the last of my 2010 harvest.

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## Paul Hostetter

I've experimented with quite a few native American hardwoods as boards. One I found that doesn't work is walnutit's just too soft. Looks great for a year or so, but then really starts to break down if you really play it. I love it for other things though. Ovation boards are walnut but theyre vacuum impregnated with acrylic to make them suitably durable.

Mountain mahogany is a superb fingerboard wood, but very hard to source unless you're a desert rat and are willing to go get it. 

Another very similar wood is manzanita, which grows all over the west. Here's one of my guitars with bridge and board of manzanita:



This photo was taken when it was new and fresh. The board has darkened quite a bit since then. Another good wood for boards is Osage orange.

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## Ed Goist

> What other woods work well for fretboards?
> ...snip...


Jason Harshbarger of Highland Strings used Bocote for the fretboard (swirly grain) and the binding, point tips, and bridge (straight grain) on my 2-Point.  I believe it was from Central America. 

Jason explained that the gold in the grain of this wood would soften and gray over time. I found that intriguing and poetically appropriate, as the mandolin and I would grow gray together (me probably much faster that _The Raven_). More photos in signature.

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## Paul Hostetter

Bocote looks great, but like walnut, doesn't hold up well over time as a fingerboard. It looks harder than it really is. Here's another guitar of mine, from 1979, with a fairly tired bocote fingerboard:



The board had a sensational grain when it was new, but it darkened pretty quick.

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## j. condino

Paul:

I just want to offer a public thanks for all of the beautiful non-traditional instruments and inspiration that you offer up on a regular basis to folks here at the cafe. You, the Big Bussman from New Mexico, and John Arnold always amaze me with your openness to new ideas and fresh takes on instruments that most of the time seem to get strangled and smothered in traditional dogmatic conformity.  Every time I get bogged down in what seems like my own quagmire of market driven conventionality ( in my world, maybee not everyone else  :Wink: ), you guys offer up a breath of fresh air from a whole different perspective that makes me smile and opens up new ideas and inspiration in my own work.

Keeping in line with the original thread, I had a board of persimmon in the shop that and been air dried for about ten years that still moved so much every time the weather and seasons changed that I finally decided I'd never use it on an instrument. It sure did burn nice in the fireplace!

"Texas ebony" makes for a great non-traditional fingerboard, and is a domestic wood.

About two hours ago I removed a hard maple fingerboard from an ancient double bass that is on the workbench for some MAJOR surgery; it has been doing the job just fine since about 1840.

j.
www.condino.com

coming soon:
www.blueridgeschooloflutherie.com
www.kaybassrepair.com

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## Dale Ludewig

I think osage orange would certainly be hard enough.  I made some bridges out of it back in the 70's.  I've also got some pretty thin turned pieces out of it that have seemed stable.  Working it, I always feel that it's going to warp all over the place, but it hasn't in my experience.  Up here in Illinois, it is difficult to find any that is very large.  But if you get 5-600 miles south of here, that's not an issue.

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## Schlegel

I have several German Bowlback mandolins in the 70 to 100 year old range and a couple have maple boards, stained dark.  Not black, at least anymore. looks kind of like they might have been aiming for a rosewood type color.  Anyway the wood itself has held up fine, I assume it's purposefully selected from among the harder varieties of maple.  Wouldn't surprise me if in the future consumers will one day need to either accept non-black boards, or alternatively, accept a re-dye as a normal part of fret dressing and setup.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Paul:
> 
> ....Keeping in line with the original thread, I had a board of persimmon in the shop that and been air dried for about ten years that still moved so much every time the weather and seasons changed that I finally decided I'd never use it on an instrument. It sure did burn nice in the fireplace!
> 
> "Texas ebony" makes for a great non-traditional fingerboard, and is a domestic wood.
> 
> About two hours ago I removed a hard maple fingerboard from an ancient double bass that is on the workbench for some MAJOR surgery; it has been doing the job just fine since about 1840.


How do you measure or quantify "movement" on a board of wood?  Was that by dimension? or by weight? or something else?

"Texas ebony" is a reference to the hard maple not the persimmon?

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## sunburst

Bernie, wood movement in unrestrained pieces usually shows up as twisting, warping, or otherwise changing shape.

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## oldwave maker

Paul- that non-runout sycamore just knocks me out! I wouldn't use claro or eastern/midwestern walnut for boards or bridges, but this desert stuff seems harder and tougher, and it sure is denser. The fiddlemaker I 'studied' with years ago thought it was 'harder than hammered owl s#it' Working on connecting with a guy who has some tightly flamed mtn mahogany.
James- I've never had an original idea, but always happy to steal from fertile minds when not following the instructions of the great packer fan in the sky. Winning the lottery would surely enable full tilt crazy in the oldwave shop......

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## sunburst

> Winning the lottery would surely enable full tilt crazy in the oldwave shop......


That would set a lot of us free, but I'm not sure anyone else could do "full tilt crazy" quite like Oldwave Hollow...

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## Steve Sorensen

:Popcorn: 

Steve

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## j. condino

Here are some examples of "Texas ebony":
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/person...as%20ebony.htm

The persimmon I had in the shop warped, twisted, cracked and moved all over the place in dimension, weight, and appearance almost weekly for years.

As for luthiers being able to manage money and how trying to make a paycheck building instruments seems to be a losing battle, my buddy Ted Davis used to put it this way about winning the lottery,"What would I do if I won the lottery? Well, I'd keep building guitars until I ran out of money!" :Wink: 

j.
www.condino.com

coming soon:
www.blueridgeschooloflutherie.com
www.kaybassrepair.com

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## Soundfarmer Pete

> What other woods work well for fretboards?
> 
> Any dark colored native US woods?
> 
> I'm also curious to know if anyone has experience using Bubinga?
> 
> Thanks,
> Steve


I`m pretty sure some of the Rickenbacker guitars use bubinga.

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## imleath

Are persimmons those little fruity lookin' things that are bitter as hell and dry your mouth out?

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## Steve Sorensen

Anyone have actual experience using Bubinga as a fingerboard?  I have a huge billet that has been waiting for a good purpose (other than binding).  Sure is attractive and appropriate looking . . . 

Thanks,
Steve

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## Bernie Daniel

Just in case anyone is interested you can buy a flitch of persimmon from Hearne Hardwoods in Oxford, PA.  The filith is about 183 board feet and weighs about 870 pounds -- you have to buy the whole thing for a price of $1,069 (USD).

Now please mind your manners and don't fight over the order!  :Smile:

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## Bernie Daniel

> Here are some examples of "Texas ebony":
> http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/person...as%20ebony.htm
> 
> The persimmon I had in the shop warped, twisted, cracked and moved all over the place in dimension, weight, and appearance almost weekly for years.
> 
> As for luthiers being able to manage money and how trying to make a paycheck building instruments seems to be a losing battle, my buddy Ted Davis used to put it this way about winning the lottery,"What would I do if I won the lottery? Well, I'd keep building guitars until I ran out of money!"  j.


Thanks for the info. on "Texas ebony".   I must confess that even though I spent a few years in my working days doing environmental research on range land restoration in the Chihuahuan desert I was not aware of this tree.  

Here is some basic information on the tree and wood written in a kind of humorous/opinionated style but quite informative nonetheless! 

Scientific: Ebenopsis ebano (formerly Pithecellobium flexicaule)
Common: Texas ebony, ebony blackhead, ape's earring
Family: Fabaceae
Origin: South Texas south into old Mexico, Chihuahuan desert native

Hardiness zones
Sunset 12-13
USDA 9-10 (arid and semi arid regions best)

Landscape Use: Slow growing but eventually becoming a large upright shade tree for xeric landscapes, great bonsai tree.

Form & Character: Stiff, don't get too close, stately, green + desert = prime for urban areas. Very briefly deciduous in late Spring before flowering if in a no irrigation area, otherwise evergreen.

Growth Habit: Slow growth rate to eventually 40' height and spread with trunk to 2-3' in diameter; bark smooth when young to rough and fissured with age. Young branches extend in a characteristic zig-zag pattern. Don't believe the "reports" that this is really a little tree, it just grows slow is all.

Foliage/texture: Alternate, pinnately compound leaf with 3 to 5 pairs of oblong to obovate small leaflets, medium green, hidden stipular spines to 1/2" long set under foliage; medium texture.

Flowers & fruits: Small, musty fragrant cream-colored flowers in dense, slender, terminal spikes to 1.5" long, flowers attract bees. Fruit are an immense dark brown pods 6 to 12" long, sometimes curved or contorted, segmented, tardily dehiscent.

Seasonal color: Cream flowers in early summer, but can also flower after monsoon in early fall. Fruit pods are persistent and visible. From an ornamental perspective, the fruit are big, bad, and ugly, and are the only non-aesthetic part of this tree.

Temperature: Tolerant of Phoenix heat and cold, however, sunscald on he southwesterbn exposed trunks of trees is common.

Light: Full sun

Soil: Highly tolerant of desert soils.

Watering: Texas ebony is very drought tolerant once established. I recommend providing supplemental water to young specimens in order to increase their growth rate.

Pruning: In its native habitat Texas ebony grows a dense canopy to the ground. Given this habit, crown raising is the principal pruning technique that one will practice over time in order to train specimens into typically what are beautiful multi-trunk trees with upright and broadly spreading canopies at maturity. Sadly, horticultural 'clods' (lazy, dull of mind, and armed with gas powered hedge trimmers) seem to always want to shear these trees when young into a large lolly-pops on sticks. Young trees brutalized in this manner will grow a dense matrix of crossing and intermingled branches.  Eventually these young trees will grow too large to continue (in)effectively this mis-practice (I call them then,"Trees with sidewall haircuts"). At such time they will likely either need years worth of corrective or restorative pruning or will need to be removed. Wear protective clothing when working with this tree as it's stipular spines are capable of drawing blood.

Propagation: The seeds have an unusually hard epiderm (coat) that needs a scarification treatment (soaking in 95% sulfuric acid, processing in a rock tumbler, or manually chipping or filing) in order to readily germinate.

Disease and pests: Palo verde borer beetles are a problem with Texas ebony in Phoenix during summers.

Additional comments: Texas ebony is a slow growing and beautifully spreading tree that needs an appropriate large landscape space in which to slowly and gracefully mature. Sadly though, it is often mis-cast in the landscape as a small feature, and because its well armed and has branches that zig zag, lazy plant hacks who think they are horticulturists shear this otherwise beautiful tree into a cartoon-like ""lollypop on a stick".

In wood working circles, this tree is known for it's rich heartwood that is described as dark reddish-brown tinged with purple. The heartwood is unusally close grained, strong, dense and oily. Woodworkers report that it finishes naturally with a robust luster. Ebenopsis is a small genus consisting of two species native to the United States.

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## Adam Tracksler

> Nothing US native that is black like ebony or even dark like rosewood. Mesquite is good, and fairly dark. I want to get some and try it.


mesquite would be good, if the mandolin was no good, you could always make some BBQ.... I'd be interested to see some more mandolins that depart from the standard materials. You can always send them to me for extended testing  :Smile:

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## jasonharsh

I have actually used bubinga in a guitar fingerboard once several years ago. It worked fine though I haven't chosen to use it again. I picked it from a hard and heavy piece of bubinga. Like other woods it varies but when it is on the hard and heavy side for bubinga it seems to wear about about like a lighter piece of rosewood. If your board is big enough it would make great neck (done this on a guitar too) if you don't want to use it for a fingerboard. Sorry the photo doesn't show off the board but that center wedge of the headstock is the same bubinga.

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## David Newton

Here is a picture of part of a balk of Texas Ebony and a fretboard that was cut out of it. It would make a great native material, but it is very limited in availability, and too expensive as it is now. The available wood, as I have experienced, doesn't yield much usable material. I paid about $80 for the balk, and have only gotten 2 usable guitar boards from it. Lots better luck getting Mando boards, but I'm not building mandos now.

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## Keith Newell

I posted a reply but it doesn't show up.....testing .....testing.
keith

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## Keith Newell

Ok it seems to work now. My question  everytime I have worked with desert Ironwood it has been so hard it kills a saw blade and so dry/brittle that it crackes after a short while. Is there a secret?
Keith

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## Spruce

> I've used...mountain mahogany....


Took these pics yesterday at a joint near Bishop, California...
The flavor that this wood imparts to food is pure magic...
They used to make roller skate wheels out of the stuff, and it's great for violin pegs...
F'boards, too...

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## Bernie Daniel

> Here is a picture of part of a balk of Texas Ebony and a fretboard that was cut out of it. It would make a great native material, but it is very limited in availability, and too expensive as it is now. The available wood, as I have experienced, doesn't yield much usable material. I paid about $80 for the balk, and have only gotten 2 usable guitar boards from it. Lots better luck getting Mando boards, but I'm not building mandos now.


That is a beautiful piece of wood! 

Is the reason for the limited availability the "vicious circle" -- i.e., no one harvests it because there is no demand of it and there is no demand because there is no supply?  Or is it a matter of a tree that is infrequently found at the size needed?  It does seem to have a tendency to send out multiple small trunks instead of a main trunk?  Anyway it is a lovely tree.

Its a member of the pea family and those pods remind me of Catalpa?

Some images of the tree...

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## David Newton

Texas Ebony reminds me a lot of Pau Ferro, (Bolivian Rosewood, Ironwood) and not in the good way. It is nasty when cutting, irritating to the nose and skin. The grain is similar to Pau Ferro, a lot. It planes beautifully and polishes smooth and hard.
It isn't that oily, and glues fine.
Mine has a greenish cast to the main wood, with darker areas and red bands. The red is pretty, but most of the red is rotted.
It grows in the Rio Grande valley, right up against the river, and only a couple of fellows know what it is, and harvest storm fallen trees and sell the wood. You take what you can get, and everything I see is half rotted and twisty. They cut the wood willy-nilly, and you are lucky to get something usable. I think the wood turners are the biggest market for the stuff.

I cut it as close to the quarter as I could, which was very close. I dried the boards for quite a while, and it did not twist or crack.
I have two guitars building in the shop with Texas Ebony fret boards. I hope they darken over time, as I don't like the green cast.

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## Bernie Daniel

:Smile: 


> Texas Ebony reminds me a lot of Pau Ferro, (Bolivian Rosewood, Ironwood) and not in the good way. It is nasty when cutting, irritating to the nose and skin. The grain is similar to Pau Ferro, a lot. It planes beautifully and polishes smooth and hard.
> It isn't that oily, and glues fine.
> Mine has a greenish cast to the main wood, with darker areas and red bands. The red is pretty, but most of the red is rotted.
> It grows in the Rio Grande valley, right up against the river, and only a couple of fellows know what it is, and harvest storm fallen trees and sell the wood. You take what you can get, and everything I see is half rotted and twisty. They cut the wood willy-nilly, and you are lucky to get something usable. I think the wood turners are the biggest market for the stuff.
> 
> I cut it as close to the quarter as I could, which was very close. I dried the boards for quite a while, and it did not twist or crack.
> I have two guitars building in the shop with Texas Ebony fret boards. I hope they darken over time, as I don't like the green cast.


Thanks for the great information -- this is a really intriguing tree to me for some reason!  :Smile:  

From your description of the location it seems like it is a riparian loving species then?  

I got a different impression from reading about it -- thinking it was drouth-tolerant open spaces tree.   But that would explain why I did not come across it in the couple of years I worked with Texas A&M on the range land restoration project -- did not work near streams or rivers.  

But reading about the spines (pic) on it I wonder if did not see one after all.  On one birding junket in the desert I encountered a beautiful (and irritated) Loggerhead Shrike with a small shrew or field mouse  that he had killed and impaled on a thorny tree -- they keep their food in a larder like that for later consumption (I paid not attention to the tree at the time!). 

I expect finding smaller pieces for mandolin fret boards would be a better prospect?

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## John Arnold

The big problem with persimmon is that it is virtually all sapwood. In addition to the light color (basically straw color with grayish overtones), sapwood tends to have more seasoning problems, particularly warping, bug holes, and fungal stains.
On the one all-domestic guitar I built with a persimmon fingerboard, I bound it with black celluloid, and dyed it with black aniline stain after the frets were installed. 
I first cut persimmon almost 40 years ago, and I have had several opportunities to cut trees since then. The best solid black heartwood I have obtained was about the size of a pencil, and it was the equal of tropical ebony.
I have found a few pieces with black striping in the sapwood, similar to macassar ebony. Here is a piece I cut from a pallet board in the mid-1970's:



I have been enamored with Texas ebony ever since I first saw it at my local exotic wood dealer. I found a couple of internet sellers who cut trees damaged from hurricanes, but my experience echos David's. The trees are full of defects, and grow very irregularly. Basically, finding a clear piece long enough for a guitar fingerboard has been a challenge. After much time and effort, I have been able to get a few nice fingerboards and a larger number of bridges. I do like the fact that the wood seems to have fairly low shrinkage during the seasoning process. 
Yesterday, I visited the same wood dealer where I first saw Texas ebony, and they had one small 4/4 piece of lumber for $25 that yielded three fairly nice fingerboards. Not quartered, but with this wood, I don't think that is important.






> I expect finding smaller pieces for mandolin fret boards would be a better prospect?


Definitely.




> The trees will grow to a considerable size in the right environment reaching over 100 feet apparently. Anyone work with that?


My experience with sassafras is that it is about the same density as mahogany, and certainly no harder than walnut. In other words, it is too soft for fingerboards. However, I think it is a great mahogany substitute. I have used it for kerfing, neck blocks, and tail blocks, and I plan to use it for backs and sides.

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## Paul Hostetter

> The big problem with persimmon is that it is virtually all sapwood.


Not all sapwood is troubleconsider all the Brazilian backs that are part sapwood and are, by some, regarded as beautiful? 



Wouldn't it be safer to say that the big problem with persimmon is that it is persimmon? 

I've had some chunks of persimmon I cut and put up 30-some years ago that seem as stable as can be, and the couple of mandolin boards I made seemed to behave themselves quite well. Maybe I've been lucky.

What's the Latin name for "Texas ebony?"

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## billhay4

Persimmon, being the standard wood for golf clubs in the past, would not seem to be known for instability. But perhaps I'm wrong on that. But a golf club is subjected to all kinds of moisture and stress. Can't believe they would have used a wood that is prone to splitting or movement.
Bill

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## John Arnold

> What's the Latin name for "Texas ebony?"


Pithecellobium flexicaule is the old scientific name for Texas Ebony, but it has been re-classified as Ebenopsis ebano. It is in the Fabaceae or Legume family. In other words, it is not related to persimmon or true ebony.




> Not all sapwood is trouble—consider all the Brazilian backs that are part sapwood and are, by some, regarded as beautiful?


If you look at my guitars, you will see that I definitely don't have a bias against sapwood.
My point was that if you cut persimmon trees to acquire black ebony, you are likely to be disappointed. And besides hickory, it is the most susceptible to borers of any wood I have processed. A lot of persimmon has ugly gray discoloration that apparently is tied to oxidation, so it is unevenly distributed in the board. It does have excessive shrinkage during drying, but seems to be as stable as necessary for a wood in that density class.
Two dense woods that have much less shrinkage than average are Texas ebony and black locust. When telephone poles were all wood, locust was the preferred material for the insulator pins, specifically because of its strength and stability.

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## Rob Grant

One thing that can cause problems with sapwood around these parts is the starch content. A high starch content generally makes the sapwood unstable (everything loves it... fungus, termites, borers, etc.). Locally we have some timbers that have incredibly beautiful sap/heartwood contrasts that would make lovely backs and sides. The problem with using these sap/heartwood combos is that you can't count on the sap maintaining it's colour, texture and internal structure.

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## Dale Ludewig

I'm not sure about the locust that grows around here.  Probably a different species.  Still it is called "black locust".  And it warps all over the place, so it's probably a different timber than what John's talking about.  But it is extremely hard.

I haven't (around here) seen much boring in hickory.  Ash is another story, and this is years prior to the current infestation of ash beetles.  I had some very nice ash, air dried, some years ago.  Made a fine table out of it and then learned later that it was developing little holes in it.  I've never had air dried ash in the shop since.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Not all sapwood is trouble—consider all the Brazilian backs that are part sapwood and are, by some, regarded as beautiful? 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it be safer to say that the big problem with persimmon is that it is persimmon? 
> 
> I've had some chunks of persimmon I cut and put up 30-some years ago that seem as stable as can be, and the couple of mandolin boards I made seemed to behave themselves quite well. Maybe I've been lucky.
> 
> What's the Latin name for "Texas ebony?"


Paul, FYI, click back to post #42 in this string -- I pasted a bunch of stuff on Texas ebony there.

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## John Arnold

> I'm not sure about the locust that grows around here. Probably a different species. Still it is called "black locust". And it warps all over the place, so it's probably a different timber than what John's talking about. But it is extremely hard.


You may be thinking of honeylocust, with has larger spines and much larger seed pods than black locust. Honeylocust wood has a pinkish red tint, while black locust is greenish-yellow, turning golden brown with age. 
The range map in the following link shows where black locust grows. 

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/pubs/silvics...eudoacacia.htm

Honeylocust:

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/pubs/silvics...riacanthos.htm




> Ash is another story, and this is years prior to the current infestation of ash beetles. I had some very nice ash, air dried, some years ago. Made a fine table out of it and then learned later that it was developing little holes in it. I've never had air dried ash in the shop since.


Sounds like powder post beetle to me. They don't seem to care what kind of wood they attack.

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## Dale Ludewig

John, that sure looks right to me.  I'm sure that what grows around here is honey locust.  And yes, powder post beetle.  Thanks.

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## Andy Morton

So what do you think....are practical alternatives to ebony and rosewood for fretboards in the future?  Is it a matter of acceptance by consumers?----would maple work and become a viable alternative if people were able to accept it?

Andy Morton
Madison, WI

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## Paul Hostetter

I took down a large yellow locust in my yard a couple of years ago, it was set upon almost immediately by powederpost. The only other local wood that's so vulnerable, nay even vulnerable at all, is bay laurel. 

The most practical alternative to ebony and rosewood, aside from the synthetic boards like Martin has been using for years now, is either vacuum-impregnated woods such as walnut (like Ovation has used for decades) or maple, which ain't bad. Perhaps there's a way to vacuum dye it on a commercial scale. Fender has done pretty well at getting the public to take it in its natural blond color, though it looks pretty bad when the lacquer inevitably wears off.

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## brunello97

> ..What's the Latin name for "Texas ebony?"


I've been back and forth across the border at Los Ebanos a few dozen times, maybe more. Great spot to remember about when considering the wood.

Mick

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## Paul Hostetter

Very cool, Mick. Thanks!

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## David Newton

Super picture of the ferry & marker!
Could I sneak a guitar into Mexico there?

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## multidon

> Fender has done pretty well at getting the public to take it in its natural blond color, though it looks pretty bad when the lacquer inevitably wears off.


This is exactly why Leo Fender went to rosewood boards. He didn't like the way his early guitars looked after the fretboards after they got worn. He preferred rosewood for purely cosmetic reasons. But of course they kept offering maple too because some players preferred that. I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't maple harder than rosewood? Some violins in the Baroque period used maple fingerboards before they went to ebony. I don't know if they were finished. seems to me the main obstacle to using maple as a fingerboard/fretboard material is its light color, and how do you keep it from getting ugly? Other than that it should do pretty good. The different species of maple are different hardnesses too. I hear people talk about "soft maple" and "hard maple". I would assume the "rock maple" some guitar makers advertise that they use is pretty hard?

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## Spruce

> ...and how do you keep it from getting ugly?


One man's "ugly" is another's "sexy"...    :Wink:

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## barry k

Here is an example of one of my mandolins with the un dyed  persimmon fingerboard. The proud owner is located in N.C.  and  plays  in the band  "Deeper Shade of Blue"

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## Dale Ludewig

I love the sapwood in that Brazilian.

I don't know if the general public is going to go for maple fingerboards on mandolins.  Fenders are already accepted as very fine with that, obviously (on guitars).  I think that one thing with black fingerboards, and even more so- headstocks, is intricate inlay.  There is always going to be a little slop around routing the inlay.  On black, it's a lot easier to hide our human frailties than on something like maple.  It's cosmetics that drive a whole lot of public acceptance.

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## Rob Grant

Even in the best of flitches, natural ebony can contain hidden defects that if it weren't for the judicious use of "superglue" can easily ruin a hard won project. I've had our local black Ebony (Diospyros) sliced, properly stickered and stored for years and it will still play up when you turn it or use it for veeners and fretboards. I can see Maple (Northern Hemisphere Acer) as a viable and easily renewable alternative. It would seem that some sort of pressure dying technique could help with the colour problem.

Our local "true" Ebony still in the tree...

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## Bernie Daniel

> Here is an example of one of my mandolins with the un dyed  persimmon fingerboard. The proud owner is located in N.C.  and  plays  in the band  "Deeper Shade of Blue"


I remember that mandolin when it was in the classifieds -- I was impressed the fingerboard.   Are you able to readily obtain persimmon for your mandolin fretboards?  If so do you plan to continue using it -- that is are you satisfied with its function as a fretboard material?

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## peter.coombe

Well we have quite a few woods that can be substituted for Ebony, many of the desert Acacias make great fingerboards and tuning knobs.  I think many are superior to Ebony because they are harder.  Not black, but are lovely dark reddish browns.  From top is Western Myall (_Acacia papyrocarpa_), Lancewood (Acacia shirley), NSW Ironwood (_Acacia excelsa_), and Gidgee (_Acacia camnagei_).  There are many others that I don't have samples of.  No shortage of trees, just a small market so not so easy to get the wood, but is not impossible to source if you know where to go.  I have used NSW Ironwood and Gidgee and they make excellent fingerboards or tuning knobs.  Gidgee can be so dark that after a coat of oil is difficult to distinguish from Ebony.

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## Arnt

Fruit woods, such as pear or apple, and usually stained dark, used to be a common fingerboard wood for instruments like the Hardanger fiddle over here.  Its color is quite a bit darker than maple to begin with, nowhere near rosewood or ebony of course, but enough that dirt and grime doesn't show quite so much.   It holds up quite well over time, and should be considered at least as well suited as maple.  I used it for the fingerboard, as well the bridge and all the appointments on this mandola with all local (Norwegian)  woods a couple of years ago.  The other woods are spruce and birch.

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## Josh Kaplan

Arnt,

That is my idea of a great looking instrument, and the fact that it's local woods makes it even more special (even though I'm not from there!). I feel the same way about Old Wave, Peter Coombe's work, and some others I've seen from cyberspace.

-Josh

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## Bernie Daniel

> Even in the best of flitches, natural ebony can contain hidden defects that if it weren't for the judicious use of "superglue" can easily ruin a hard won project. I've had our local black Ebony (Diospyros) sliced, properly stickered and stored for years and it will still play up when you turn it or use it for veeners and fretboards. I can see Maple (Northern Hemisphere Acer) as a viable and easily renewable alternative. It would seem that some sort of pressure dying technique could help with the colour problem.
> 
> Our local "true" Ebony still in the tree...


That is _Diospyros humilis_ I guess.  Apparently Australian ebony is difficult to process or cure.  Here is a brief discussion with pics.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Well we have quite a few woods that can be substituted for Ebony, many of the desert Acacias make great fingerboards and tuning knobs.  I think many are superior to Ebony because they are harder.  Not black, but are lovely dark reddish browns.  From top is Western Myall (_Acacia papyrocarpa_), Lancewood (Acacia shirley), NSW Ironwood (_Acacia excelsa_), and Gidgee (_Acacia camnagei_).  There are many others that I don't have samples of.  No shortage of trees, just a small market so not so easy to get the wood, but is not impossible to source if you know where to go.  I have used NSW Ironwood and Gidgee and they make excellent fingerboards or tuning knobs.  Gidgee can be so dark that after a coat of oil is difficult to distinguish from Ebony.


Beautiful woods!  I guess you could stain them black to look like ebony -- but I think they look outstanding unstained.  I expect the look much like rosewood on the fretboard?  Do you use them for bridges too?

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## peter.coombe

I have only tested Lanewood in a bridge and as far as sound goes, as far as I could tell, it sounded identical to Ebony.

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## Rob Grant

Bernie,

Thanks for the URL on our local Ebony. We have around three or four different species here. D.ferrea is my "dry" country species and is found locally on rocky, rugged ground and limestone karsts. Another, "wet scrub" species, tends to have a slightly more stable core, but it is more a silvery black or grey then dead black. The contrasting white sapwood with a slight hint of red of D.ferrea is really beautiful in combination with the black centre, but the sap's high starch content makes it very "unstable." I've use a lot of D.ferrea, but one also has to have a good supply of "superglue for the inevitable cracks that appear.

As Peter mentions, we have some incredible woods (mostly dry country species) that are excellent for fretboards, pegs, veneer, etc. The local Cooktown Ironwood (Erythrophleum chlorostachys) is my favorite.

Here's my latest F5 black top which has both Cooktown Ironwood (bridge, fretboard and pickguard) and local Ebony (points, binding and peghead veneer)...

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## Bernie Daniel

That is a stunning mandolin -- I really like the contrasts!  I guess the sides, neck (and back?) are maple?  What is the top wood?

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## Rob Grant

Bernie asked:
"That is a stunning mandolin -- I really like the contrasts! I guess the sides, neck (and back?) are maple? What is the top wood?"

The sides are "Queensland Scented Maple" (not an Acer, but Flindersia laevicarpa). The neck is highly figured "Queensland Maple" (Flindersia brayliana) in a three piece laminate with a thin slice of "Cooktown Ironwood" ( Erythropleum chlorostachys) up the guts. The back is "Queensland walnut" (not a Juglans, but Endiandra palmerstonii). The top is a bit of Yank Spruce (Sitka).

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## Bill Snyder

I have some osage orange from a tree felled several years ago. I cut a couple of fretboard size pieces over two years ago but I have never used them. 
When freshly cut this stuff is YELLOW. It mellows out some. The two photos show it freshly cut and now going on 2 1/2 years later.
This piece is 2 5/8" wide and a bit over 2 feet long. It is quarter sawn and it has not moved a bit that I can tell.

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