# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  Gibson F5? Not sure...

## mandotim1955

This has come up on Ebay in the UK, and I'd be interested in the wisdom of the experts on here. It doesn't look right to me, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong at that price! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GIBSON-F5-...d=316336508671

Tim

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## Bill Snyder

Do you have a link to the auction?

Never mind. It must be this one.

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## mandotim1955

Sorry Bill, forgot to post the link. Your link is correct, it was that one! I'll edit my post and include it.
Tim

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## Bernie Daniel

Wait for other more keen observers but to me the scroll seems a bit crude and misshaped compared to a present day Gibson - but my 1972 Gibson F-12 had the same thing so maybe its OK.  The "color" and the sunburst is right for a '74 F-5 and the yellowed binding (from the aging lacquer) looks very typical for that period.  Gibson did do some of the F-5's of the time with fancy fretboard marker inlays but those inlays don't look like what I remember they did -- but I could be wrong on that.  I'd go to the achieves and look up some images of F-5's of that era.  Another curious thing here is a quote from the eBay add: "...Serial no. is 186656 and date on label is 27 3 1974..." Well the sticker would not have the European arrangement for the date i.e. March 27, 1974 as it was labeled in Michigan -- maybe the seller did that by habit.  

Like I say wait for the real experts to weigh in but it does look mostly right to me.  Also the back has a high point where the two pieces of maple meet -- new Gibsons do not have that but my '72 F-12 was just like it  -- ditto the that volute on the back of the neck below the headstock.  The tuners and the headstock inlays look right too.  All things considered I'm am guessing its the real thing.

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## f5loar

It's 100% correct for a '74 F5 except someone chopped off the extension on the fingerboard.  But do they have it is the question I would ask when it's coming from England.  Lots of scams across the waters wind up on ebay.

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## mandotim1955

Thanks; I appreciate the expertise; I've asked the seller to provide photos of the labels as a sign of good faith. What I don't appreciate is the gratuitous slur on the reputation of my country. To F5loar; I know international geography isn't an American strong point, but please bear in mind that 'across the waters' means more than the UK, and many of the scams you refer to are nothing to do with this country, despite using our variant of eBay as a vehicle. Also bear in mind that the UK as a country is far more law-abiding than the USA by any accepted international measure. An apology would be nice.

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## f5loar

Okay.  I'll add it happens in USA too. Since this one was from the UK I said that. If it was Hong Kong or Down Under I would have said the same. And most of the UK scams don't really originate there , they just use the UK while they are somewhere else.  What I meant was ebay is a dangerous place full of many scammers all over the globe.  I've seen high end mandolins used many times to lure lonely bluegrass pickers into their web of deceit so preceed with caution.

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## barney 59

But there IS a guy in the UK that is pretty notorious for doing exactly what that appears to be. A very appealing instrument at an even more appealing price and it's always a scam and it is unrelenting. How he comes up with different names and feed back ratings is what I'd like to know. That listing appears just like they always appear and my first take was "Oh, him again!" even before I looked at what it really was, I think the previous post was not a slur on the UK but from someone recognizing that ad for what it almost certainly will turn out to be. But please follow through-- offer to go and pick it up and pay cash--I'd like to hear what happens. If it's real that is a very good price and I would buy it from YOU if you really don't want it.

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## stratman62

What I don't appreciate is the gratuitous slur on the reputation of my country. To F5loar; I know international geography isn't an American strong point, but please bear in mind that 'across the waters' means more than the UK, and many of the scams you refer to are nothing to do with this country, despite using our variant of eBay as a vehicle. Also bear in mind that the UK as a country is far more law-abiding than the USA by any accepted international measure. An apology would be nice. 

Good point, but you have to remember, we are a country founded by other countries outcast and lower caste peoples looking to provide themselves with a better life. Laws or no laws, we in the USA are always looking for a better way.

Thanks for letting me rant!

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## houseworker

Item and seller were both 100% genuine, and it's sold.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Thanks; I appreciate the expertise; I've asked the seller to provide photos of the labels as a sign of good faith. What I don't appreciate is the gratuitous slur on the reputation of my country. To F5loar; I know international geography isn't an American strong point, but please bear in mind that 'across the waters' means more than the UK, and many of the scams you refer to are nothing to do with this country, despite using our variant of eBay as a vehicle. Also bear in mind that the UK as a country is far more law-abiding than the USA by any accepted international measure. An apology would be nice.


Seems to me when you ask for and then receive free expert help that you should act less defensive and thin skinned   Several of us took OUR time to help YOU out so maybe you might be a little more civil.  So maybe you owe an apology as well -- for ingratitude if nothing else.

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## Bill Snyder

I see no slur on your country. It has been the subject of some other threads recently (posted by your fellow countrymen) that someone (or perhaps more) has recently been using ebay in the UK for just such scams.

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## houseworker

I saw no slur either.  There was an inaccuracy however; our local scammer(s) prefer the use of online classifieds and steer well clear of eBay, where PayPal buyer protection would be too easily invoked.

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## almeriastrings

It was obviously sold "off ebay".... might be a good deal, it might not. These can have some really serious (very expensive to fix) issues that only show up on close examination. One of them is "binding rot". I often say that Ibanez were making such close copies of these that they even copied the defects, because theirs have the problem too. Their neck joints are also prone to failure. They are very much over-built (Gibson at the time were looking to reduce warranty work), and the materials used tend to be pretty lacklustre. They can be a decent mandolin (I have seen some that had been modded and fine tuned by the likes of Randy Wood and others), but they tend to lack volume and have nowhere near the sound of the 'revived' F5 released some years later.

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## houseworker

> It was obviously sold "off ebay".... might be a good deal, it might not. These can have some really serious (very expensive to fix) issues that only show up on close examination. One of them is "binding rot". I often say that Ibanez were making such close copies of these that they even copied the defects, because theirs have the problem too. Their neck joints are also prone to failure. They are very much over-built (Gibson at the time were looking to reduce warranty work), and the materials used tend to be pretty lacklustre. They can be a decent mandolin (I have seen some that had been modded and fine tuned by the likes of Randy Wood and others), but they tend to lack volume and have nowhere near the sound of the 'revived' F5 released some years later.


Ever the bearer of good tidings!  :Grin:   I'll find out in a week or so how much of a bargain I have, but I'm pretty confident.

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## almeriastrings

Yes, well! I don't think you can lose in Europe, bearing in mind R F Charles in Paris is trying to sell one for €4,600!

http://www.rfcharle.com/HTML/PhotosI...nts/F5.75.html

Those (potential) issues are real, however. Obviously, not all suffer, but a lot do, to varying degrees. It is very common in Gibsons from that era. They also have a different neck angle from the 'resurrected' F5, and that neck joint is a M+T rather than dovetail. I actually quite like the inlays on these, and that case is very nice of itself. Good luck with it anyway, I will await your report with great interest! You know, I got to thinking and recall selling one of these brand new (it was a special order and cost a fortune) sometime around the mid to late 70's when I was managing a music store. We also had the Ibanez copies in from time to time. They were about the only 'real' F-style mandolins available in those days. How things change....

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## f5loar

I forgot to mention the original pickguard is missing unless it's in the case pocket.  Many removed them aka "Monroe Style" and put them in the case pocket or kept them , but many threw them away too.  They tend to rot over time too.  It's been discussed here to death but these 70's F5s can really be the absolute worst Gibson ever made.  Binding rot is typical.  Neck problems do show up a lot.  You got it at a decent price likely due to the chopped off fingerboard.  Not sure why the seller said it had been replaced with fancier inlays.  That's the way they came.  And not sure why he said it was lacquer.  They used a quick dry varnish in the 70's.  The problem is they used a lot of it.

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## bribhoy

Tim,

I don't think F5 Loar was in any way besmirching your (our!) country. He was advising you that there are a lot of scams on various Gibson F5s showing up in UK ebay and London craigslist at the moment and it appears one or two people are responsible for all of them. He is one of the most helpful and knowledgable people on this forum and my reading of his comment is that he is simply asking you to ensure you take appropriate precautions before jumping in on this one. 

You had to stretch quite a long way to take offence at that I think. Just one man's opinion. 

Cheers
Bribhoy

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## houseworker

> I forgot to mention the original pickguard is missing unless it's in the case pocket.  Many removed them aka "Monroe Style" and put them in the case pocket or kept them , but many threw them away too.  They tend to rot over time too.  It's been discussed here to death but these 70's F5s can really be the absolute worst Gibson ever made.  Binding rot is typical.  Neck problems do show up a lot.  You got it at a decent price likely due to the chopped off fingerboard.  Not sure why the seller said it had been replaced with fancier inlays.  That's the way they came.  And not sure why he said it was lacquer.  They used a quick dry varnish in the 70's.  The problem is they used a lot of it.


I'm loving all this positivity around my new acquisition  :Grin:

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## almeriastrings

It could be worse... like when you wake up one morning and realise that you were selling "Vintage" instruments... when they were new!  :Crying:

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## mandotim1955

My apologies if I misunderstood. I did say thanks for the expertise, and remain grateful. I hope houseworker has a true bargain. I guess I was being oversensitive, but with good reasons. The scammer who appears on London craigslist and occasionally on ebay, discussed here,  is not in the UK. I had a technically gifted (but highly unofficial) friend track him down, after I had complained numerous times about him to the various advertising sites with no result. He is based in Malaysia, and has a large and widespread operation, linked to an organisation that 'sells on' fake goods from China. I have reported this, with tracking details to the appropriate authorities. I believe in taking action against scammers, wherever they operate, rather than accepting them as a fact of internet life.
Once again, sincere apologies to all for any misunderstanding.
Tim

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## f5loar

In defense of me,  I have reported to ebay dozens of times this past year alone sometimes within minutes of the posting of scams that use UK addresses.  Ebay tends to react to my reportings quickly due to my high feedback rating so they remove them before others get to see them.  That was my reason to mention the UK on this one.  I too heard the scammers are not even in the UK but other foreign countries using the UK for a more trustworthy location to run the scam.  I hate to see someone get taken over several thousands of dollars when it can be avoided by bringing up awareness to newbees that likely do not know.  I remember one time a scammer using the UK as location when he was trying to sell my '57 Cadillac. These have serial nos too and he even told me the serial no. of my car when I question him where the car would be shipped from as I looked at it in my garage.  Others have watched including me as ebay listed the mandolins they own with photos pulled from their websites.  About half the time they use the UK as the location.  Sorry if I stepped on your toes ole chap!  Give my regards to the Queen.

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## allenhopkins

> I'm loving all this positivity around my new acquisition...


As the owner of an early-1950's F-5, from another of Gibson's "non-golden" eras, I say enjoy your mandolin, recognize that Gibson, like any manufacturer, had its ups and downs, and realize that if you want to improve it in the future -- and have a lot of money -- tops can be regraduated, over-thick finish can be thinned, binding replaced, and new pickguards acquired.  There is value to an authentic Gibson F-5, from whatever period it was made.  For one thing, you won't ever have to explain, at a jam session, "Yeah, that's a Shmergel Devastator, it's a small company, maybe you haven't heard of it but it's _really cool!_"

A mediocre Gibson still is better than thousands and thousands of plywood "F-5's" being cranked out continuously for the less-informed market.  Woulda been nice to have picked up a mid-1930's Fern for the same price, but I'd steer clear of buyer's remorse.  Remember, "Only A Gibson Is Good Enough," as their guitar headstocks used to say...

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## f5loar

Well said Allen.   There were quite a few of the pro pickers out their that used the 70's F5. Some as came from the factory, others with "superchargers" added.  On first look this one did not show the binding rot.  And with the chopped off board and no pickguard it was likely a picker's mandolin vs. someone who bought it, didn't like it and put it in the closet for increase in value.  And if that is the case it may have already been graduated out on the tone bars and top and back which would have made the price even better.
The last one Gruhn sold was in the $3500 range.  And I have no doubt in 50 more years these too will be very collectible and desireable Gibson F5s.

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## Gregory Tidwell

> Thanks; I appreciate the expertise; I've asked the seller to provide photos of the labels as a sign of good faith. What I don't appreciate is the gratuitous slur on the reputation of my country. To F5loar; I know international geography isn't an American strong point, but please bear in mind that 'across the waters' means more than the UK, and many of the scams you refer to are nothing to do with this country, despite using our variant of eBay as a vehicle. Also bear in mind that *the UK as a country is far more law-abiding than the USA by any accepted international measure*. An apology would be nice.


From a "gratuitous slur" to a broad overgeneralization, now we have come full circle, so thanks for that.

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## mandotim1955

My pleasure Greg. To quote Aldous Huxley; 'facts remain facts, even if they are ignored'.

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## houseworker

> I'd steer clear of buyer's remorse...


Allen, if only Shakespeare had been able to seek your excellent advice; the third witch would have told Macbeth to be happy with his lot, and to get straight home to his wife.  But where's the tragedy in that?

The thing that has most surprised me about this debate is the suspicion both Tim and f5loar directed at the seller. He was certainly not the Malaysian gangster of Tim's rather fevered imagination, masterminding some devilish plot to flood the mandolin world with counterfeit 1970s F-5s.  Quite the contrary, the eBay listing had everything you could possibly want from an honest seller.  Inviting potential buyers to call round and check the instrument out ahead of bidding shows as much good faith as one is ever likely to need.  The feedback both as buyer and seller absolutely straight and above board.  The listing made no wild claims that it was Lloyd Loar's personal instrument or that he "doesn't know anything about mandolins", and he accepted returns.  The BIN price was very fair.  If I'd had doubts I'd have looked to buy on eBay, paid with PayPal, and relied on the buyer protection in the event of a problem.

The seller is actually a working musician, well known around Stourbridge, who has a _very_ large collection of instruments that he likes to keep exercised.  When he buys he has to prune his existing stock, like quite a few here I suspect.  He was a real gentleman, and gave me a very generous deal for a quick sale on a picker's instrument.  It'll be my second Gibson, a very different beast to my F-4, and if it doesn't suit and I eventually decide to move it on I doubt very much I'll be out of pocket.  But I'll also be happy to put extra money into it if I think it's worth it.

I'd say thanks for Tom's good advice on the authenticity but I'd long since made my offer by then.  The hot air from both sides of the pond about serial scammers belonged somewhere else I'm afraid.

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## allenhopkins

> Allen, if only Shakespeare had been able to seek your excellent advice; the third witch would have told Macbeth to be happy with his lot, and to get straight home to his wife.  But where's the tragedy in that?
> 
> The thing that has most surprised me about this debate is the suspicion both Tim and f5loar directed at the seller. He was certainly not the Malaysian gangster of Tim's rather fevered imagination, masterminding some devilish plot to flood the mandolin world with counterfeit 1970s F-5s.  Quite the contrary, the eBay listing had everything you could possibly want from an honest seller.  Inviting potential buyers to call round and check the instrument out ahead of bidding shows as much good faith as one is ever likely to need.  The feedback both as buyer and seller absolutely straight and above board.  The listing made no wild claims that it was Lloyd Loar's personal instrument or that he "doesn't know anything about mandolins", and he accepted returns.  The BIN price was very fair.  If I'd had doubts I'd have looked to buy on eBay, paid with PayPal, and relied on the buyer protection in the event of a problem...The hot air from both sides of the pond about serial scammers belonged somewhere else I'm afraid.


Hope there's no tragedy involved at all, just a pleasant domestic drama with a mandolin soundtrack -- _Mayberry RFD_ rather than _Macbeth_...

Please understand that no blanket "dissing" of the UK was intended, though.  There *have* been a number of eBay scams, purporting to sell high-end mandolins and other instruments, using pilfered photos.  Some of them have listed a British location for the seller, which apparently was false, if the Malaysian scammer is the one concerned.  As a result, some who check eBay for instruments, have taken to regarding auctions listing a British address, as being potentially more suspect.  Whether this constitutes unfair stereotyping, or just more intense _caveat emptor,_ is probably a matter of perspective.

If I get an e-mail from someone in Nigeria, rightly or wrongly, I approach it with a high subjective probability that it's a scam.  If someone e-mails me claiming to be my friend's cousin, stuck in London with a lost wallet and needing air fare home, I think "swindle."  This may be doing some disservice to the characters of millions of estimable Nigerians or Londoners who would never try to rook me, and that's too bad.

You obviously had a lot of specific knowledge about the seller, that none of us had.  That's great.  You made a good choice and a good purchase -- accepting the limitations of a 1970's Gibson F-5.  Mandotim, the OP, had none of your info, and was concerned that the auction listing "didn't look right" -- although in fact it was.  Subsequent discussion revealed more about incomplete information, than it did about international suspicion.

Hope your F-5's everything you want!

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## houseworker

> You obviously had a lot of specific knowledge about the seller...


None whatever, other than that provided in ten seconds running a Google search with information from the eBay listing, an option open to any potential buyer.

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## houseworker

The mandolin arrived yesterday.  I'm pleased to say that is indeed a 1974 Master Model that has been both well cared for and well used.  The neck joint is sound, and there is no sign of binding rot.  The Florida removal looks to have been done professionally.  The finger rest wasn't in the case, but the original saddle for the bridge was, in an envelope showing that it had been worked on at 'The Link's Music Store, Hanover PA'.

Ahead of fitting new strings, I'm going to try and remove some of the varnish, which looks to have originated from a tin of molasses!

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## almeriastrings

That is very good news. You clearly got a good one there and certainly a phenomenal deal. Yes, the finish on these is like a thick coating of golden treacle! Merely proves its authenticity  :Wink: 

It will be interesting to hear how it sounds once you have it properly set up! 

Personally, I would not do anything drastic to the finish at this stage, but just get it set up and see how it is...

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## mandotim1955

Congratulations; I'm glad the deal worked out well for you!

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