# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Cross picking patterns

## carojester

I want to learn some new cross picking patterns on mandolin. Can you suggest sources for tab or other resources on this topic? Thanks!
Caroline :Mandosmiley:

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## Jordan Ramsey

Hi Caroline,

Before you delve into crosspicking, I would recommend that you have a firm grasp of alternate picking (i.e. always playing down on the down beat and up on the up beat).  If not, it's like trying to study calculus before you've passed algebra.  Next, make sure you understand the difference between true crosspicking and alternate picking across multiple strings.  John McGann has an excellent page on his website describing the difference:

http://www.johnmcgann.com/crosspicking.html

If you are interested in true crosspicking on the mandolin, here are the two bibles of McReynold's style:

Jack Tottle's "Bluegrass Mandolin"
Andy Statman's "Bluegrass Masters: Jesse McReynolds"  out of print

If you're more interested in cross string picking (alternate picking across strings), check out:

Mickey Cochran's "Mandolin Crosspicking Techniques", and Charlie Provenza's arrangement of Whiskey Before Breakfast in Mel Bay's "Mandolin Anthology". 

Good luck with your journey, it's just a time and effort game.  If you're interested in McReynold's style breaks to tunes not included in any of these books, you should get an online lesson with me.  I have an extensive collection of arrangements in this style for many standards in multiple genres.  Hope this helps, take care.

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## pickloser

Mickey Cochran calls "crosspicking" exactly what some would call "cross string picking" in his work on "Crosspicking Techniques."  I learned how to crosspick on guitar from a Steve Kaufman video, and what he called crosspicking would be called cross string picking by some.  It's a technique I use, and if Mickey Cochran and Steve Kaufman are okay with calling it crosspicking, it's no big deal.  Poh-tay'-toh, poh-tah'-toh.  This is another "finger rest" vs. "pick guard" issue, which is to me no issue at all.  JMO.  YMMV.

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## fiddlemike

Another vote for Mickey Cochran and his Crosspicking book. His exercises become almost Zen when I play them while watching TV.

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## Jordan Ramsey

> It's a technique I use, and if Mickey Cochran and Steve Kaufman are okay with calling it crosspicking, it's no big deal.  Poh-tay'-toh, poh-tah'-toh.


With all due respect, Pickloser, just because some "famous" person calls it crosspicking doesn't make them or you correct.  Normally, I stay out of the trivial potato/potahto discussions around here, but this is a technique that I have worked years to develop and refine, and I appreciate when people understand and acknowledge the difference.  As music educators, Cochran and Kaufman have done a disservice to students by using a term that's easy and inaccurate.  As McGann's page points out, you create a specific syncopation when you use real crosspicking that you will not achieve with cross string picking.  You and countless others obviously don't care, so let's get back to the recommendations for Cochran's "crosspicking" book :Whistling: .

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## pefjr

> I want to learn some new cross picking patterns on mandolin. Can you suggest sources for tab or other resources on this topic? Thanks!
> Caroline


u tube

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## Galileo

I am by no means accomplished at this technique. I, however, have to agree with _jramsey_ on this one. Incidentally, I have watched your videos _jramsey_....*nice stuff*. To my ears, there is a difference in sound/phrasing associated with cross picking versus alternating picking. 

This is no different than the difference in alternate picking and applying DUD DUD to a jig. You hear a distinct difference in these two approaches. My wife who doesn't play an instrument can hear the difference when I play a jig with "correct" DUD DUD pick strokes. She says it sounds "more Irish"...it just gives it that quintessential lilt. Downstrokes, by nature, tend to have more weight. Coupled with the “syncopation” referenced by _jramsey_ produces the differences…again, at least to my ears.

I think the difference that _jramsey_ pointing out is something similar. I've seen the Mickey Cochran book and it is alternate picking approach. While a useful technique, is not the same thing as McReynolds cross-picking and does sound different. Also, as _jramsey_ pointed out, the out of print Andy Statman book is the bible to the McReynold's approach.

My .02

REdwards

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## pickloser

> just because some "famous" person calls it crosspicking doesn't make them or you correct.


With due respect to you and Professor McGann, and I do not use the "respect" term at all facetiously, but with real respect for both of you, that is the exact point I was trying to make.  Neither you nor the Professor should insist that a certain term is the sole correct name for a technique that other respected players and teachers refer to in another way, especially based on mere assertion of what you understand to be correct.  The fact that at least two respected players and teachers, who have published materials using those terms, call "crosspicking" what you call "cross string picking" is enough to at least acknowledge that opinions differ on the correct use of the term.  If I recall correctly, Kaufman stated that he called it cross picking because the pick crosses over another string in a roll pattern.  

I have not made this point before on the at least half dozen times I have seen posters corrected for calling crosspicking what you seem to insist be called cross string picking.  Despite your having put a lot of time and effort into perfecting the technique, it's not yours to name.  Btw, it's a finger rest, unless you prefer the term pickguard.   :Wink:

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## Galileo

Hi Pickloser,

What are being debated are really definitions. Specifically, there isn't agreement on the definitions. Without agreement on terms, we can't have the same conversations or understandings.

What most guitar flatpickers and McReynolds practitioners refer to as crosspicking is a style that breaks from the more oft use technique of downstrokes on the beat and upstrokes on the "ands" in 1/8 note feel music. Somebody had to come up with a different name because the technique isn't alternating picking, but more representative of something more similar to a banjo roll. Most musicians I encounter refer to this as “Crosspicking”.

What muddies the water is, as _jramsey_ pointed out, there are those who publish materials on a method of alternating picking over strings, but is still alternating picking and not the method that  breaks that rule, that most generally accept as crosspicking. I’ve heard others complain about this same topic, specifically somebody who bought a DVD on crosspicking only to find out it was alternating picking lesson.

I can see why somebody like _jramsey_ who has devoted a substantial amount of time to master a technique and style would argue for his point to differentiate these two techniques.

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## greg_tsam

> Another vote for Mickey Cochran and his Crosspicking book. His exercises become almost Zen when I play them while watching TV.


Does that mean you can only crosspick at gigs if you're watching the boob tube?

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## greg_tsam

I forgot to say in my last post that both parties are technically correct.  It all falls under the umbrella description of cross picking but Jesse McReynold's is widely acknowledged and accepted for his style.  So Jordan, and the rest of us, practice the Jesse McReynold's style of cross picking which is commonly referred to as simply cross picking.  There are other styles of cross picking out there but if you were to use the word cross picking at a BG jam circle I think most of the mando players would assume you're talking about the JM style.

Check out this youtube video of the late great Dave Peters demonstrating this.  It starts at 8:38 but the whole video is worth watching.  (Also some at the 6:00 mark.)

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## pickloser

Galileo, I am in agreement with you.  Exactly who gets to define what a term means is, unfortunately, not a function of who deserves to define it.  It does no good to insist a technique--cross string picking in certain patterns--not be called crosspicking, when many, maybe most, folks are already calling it that.  And if the general dictionary test--how a substantial number of educated speakers use the term--applies here, than crosspicking means both techniques.  Trying to limit the word crosspicking to being a term of art referring only to the McReynolds technique is, imo, a lost cause.  (I avoid the word "forte" for similar reasons.  And I see that Greg also gets my point.)

I truly mean no disrespect to practitioners of McReynolds-style crosspicking.  

. . .at least we're not arguing about Bill.

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## blueridgemandolin

You can always do a search for Jessie's book they show up sometimes on the internet
Its a great book if you can find it.
Dan

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## carojester

Thanks for the resources and suggestions. 
My, mandolin players sure are passionate!
cheers
Caroline :Mandosmiley:

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## Jordan Ramsey

> With due respect to you and Professor McGann, and I do not use the "respect" term at all facetiously, but with real respect for both of you, that is the exact point I was trying to make.  Neither you nor the Professor should insist that a certain term is the sole correct name for a technique that other respected players and teachers refer to in another way, especially based on mere assertion of what you understand to be correct.  The fact that at least two respected players and teachers, who have published materials using those terms, call "crosspicking" what you call "cross string picking" is enough to at least acknowledge that opinions differ on the correct use of the term.  If I recall correctly, Kaufman stated that he called it cross picking because the pick crosses over another string in a roll pattern.  
> 
> I have not made this point before on the at least half dozen times I have seen posters corrected for calling crosspicking what you seem to insist be called cross string picking.  Despite your having put a lot of time and effort into perfecting the technique, it's not yours to name.  Btw, it's a finger rest, unless you prefer the term pickguard.


Pickloser, I'm sorry if I came off brash in my last post.  I've always appreciated your posts on here, and this is nothing personal.  I'm also sorry to take a simple thread about material and turn it into a heated debate over a definition, but I gotta stand my ground when it comes to what I teach and how I define what I do.  The term crosspicking was first used to describe the techniques used by both Jesse McReynolds and George Shuffler.  Cross string picking happened later; it is not the same thing and requires a very different technical approach.  I can play the fire out of McReynold's style crosspicking, but I am terrible at Shuffler style and alternate cross string picking, I mean beginner speed.  It takes a lot of time to get good at just one of these picking patterns, and I will argue with anyone (minus Chris Thile) who says they can combine both crosspicking patterns and alternating together at a high level.  You're just working against your muscle memory and momentum.  They are different techniques, different muscle movements, they need different names.  Crosspicking was first used to describe McReynolds/Shuffler style, they get the name.  Neither I nor Prof. McGann are trying to be "crosspicking bullies" or claiming that we invented the phrase or anything,but we are both trying to define it and distinguish it from alternate picking so that we can teach people properly.  When someone learns about a style, they should understand how to get a specific sound through proper technique.  

We've both made our points, I'm sure we'll just have to agree to disagree on the matter.  I, also, meant no disrepect to anyone out there, just differences of opinion.

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Pasha Alden

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## John McGann

There _is_ a difference, and it is well worth distinguishing, IMHO.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## AlanN

I have heard and seen good crosspicking, from the cats who do it. It's the kind of thing that you know it when you hear it. There's a picker around here, Ted Jones. Man, does he have it down, just like Jesse (or at least as close as I've heard). He even looks like Jesse.

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## Galileo

Carojester,

Keep your eyes out for a copy of the Andy Statman book. When they do come up for sale they don't last long. If I recall, a few years some cafe member had created a pdf of the book and would send you copy if asked. It's a shame that it is out of print.

REdwards

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## Jeroen

Mixing up cross string patterns is tough, but fun:

I'll share a little demo of my attempts:

http://youtu.be/drPGJMc1RC8

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## carojester

Wow Jeroen, that's a really sweet video! Got anymore you could share with me?

Thanks again everyone.

cheers
Caroline
 :Mandosmiley:

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## greg_tsam

Good job!

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## blueridgemandolin

Here is a link to Jesse on youtube, 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_pV5cSAafw

May have to copy and paste 
Dan

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## blueridgemandolin

Here is another where Jesse shows some more from his Homespun lessons,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aEvn...eature=related

Dan

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## Werner Jaekel

comment removed

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## Werner Jaekel

What are these additional notes to a lead melody called crosspicking ?  licks, arpeggios, ornamentation or... ?  Practising crosspicking up and down the fretboard is fine. But as soon as I want to apply it some melody, which is not bluegrass, I feel lost. What is the difference between alternate picking, crosspicking and a roll (like banjo). I want to use these things but as long as I don't know the theory behind it I am stuck to these boring exercises. 

My speed is not too bad, but needs improvement. Watching the experts I have noticed that speed is often achieved through pick action by alternate picking, not always by the left hand. As long as I apply my dudududu my speed is fairlry fluent. But when I start to incorporate  crosspicking or alternate picking I stumble and stutter, loosing tempo. 

So, if I want to use these techniques ad lib, which rule or pattern is there to follow ? Or do I simply improvise ?

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## John McGann

> What is the difference between alternate picking, crosspicking and a roll (like banjo).  
> 
> So, if I want to use these techniques ad lib, which rule or pattern is there to follow ? Or do I simply improvise ?



http://www.johnmcgann.com/crosspicking.html

Jesse has some specific patterns on 3 strings that are basic- the forward roll and reverse roll. Most crosspicking is based from those foundations. I remember it took me a LONG time to get it going, because I had years of strict alternate picking ingrained in my playing. I think the best way in is to track down that Andy Statman Jesse McReynolds book, long out of print but floating around in .pdf format. It is truly a goldmine, and reveals things about ways to play that most mortals would never have dreamed of, in terms of combining notes up the neck with open strings. A lot of counter-intuitive note placement that works brilliantly. 

I don't mean to harp on this, but it is a _totally different approach_ to the instrument from 'normal' alternate picking. It is a different language as far as right hand technique goes, and I think it is _stunningly_ inventive. Jesse is an unsung hero in my book.

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## Jeroen

@ JaHe
Many questions. Mostly about theory. Theory and crosspicking are a bees nest and there has been a some dispute about naming the aspects of the techniques and the techniques themselves.

“cross” refers to jumping from string to string for each note, and “picking” seems to refer to folk styles for plucked cordophones where plucking technique and instrument operation are a significant factor in the character of the music (flatpicking, fingerpicking, Travis picking..).

The best way to dive into it is indeed lots of tiresome right hand exercise, but also lots of fun listening to whatever inspires you (Jesse McReynolds, JS Bach, Andy Statman, Toumani Diabate, Steve Reich, Earl Scruggs, whatever). 

At the risk (should I say guarantee?) of boring both starters and experts, I will throw in some theoretical remarks about the non-melody notes and the patterns:
- they give the melody a harmonic context. Which is weird, because the notes are not being picked simultaniously. Standard notation would drown in a mess of ties to prescribe or describe the effect. Since the notes are being picked on different strings, the sustain of several notes will overlap and add harmony.
- the pattern of notes gives a rhythmic context. Which is weird, because you will usually play a pretty constant stream of 16th notes. The rhythmic pattern is paradoxically a melodic one, but because of its more or less repetitive structure, it will add an (often syncopated) rhythmic effect.
- the physical playing pattern will usually shine through in a syncopation with subtle accents. The use of open strings and choice of position on the neck will have a tremendous influence on the effect. In a complex cross string picked phrase, standard notation will fall short to catch these aspects.
- the  pattern and its effect often have priority over a strict representation of the melody. 

The result is a spectacular mosaic of melody, harmony, repetition and syncopation where the the instrument and the right hand technique of the individual musician are such an integral part of the result, that western music theory and standard notation have big trouble to catch the gist of what is going on musically.

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## John McGann

Jeroen, that is very well, even poetically, spoken!

It would indeed be messy to notate the exact effect of note durations. A really interesting read is John Stropes transcriptions of Michael Hedges ("Rhythm Sonority Silence") with amazing attention to such details as note durations- he invented some ways of notating post-attack sustain with colored bars, as well as muting techniques, etc.

That's the most lovingly detailed set of transcriptions I've ever seen.

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## Werner Jaekel

Jeroen

Very good, I copied and printed your post and added this to my folder " tuition". Thank you.

Today I got Professor John McGanns' " developing melodic variations on fiddle tunes ..." and Mickey Cochrans' "crosspicking technique ". 

Got a bit of work to do now...

Page 2 " what they are saying" -YES, very true. 

The books recommended by Professor John McGann "Andy Statman Jesse McReynolds" and "Rhythm Sonority Silence" are not available in Germany.
Thank you , all the same.

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## MandoSquirrel

The "Andy Statman Jesse McReynolds" isn't readily available anywhere, except used copies that rarely are offered for hundreds of dollars, aside from the possible tracking down of that elusive PDF!

And, Professor McGann's stuff is very good, for those who can take the time to really work with it.

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## Mandophyte

The "Andy Statman Jesse McReynolds" is currently "available" at  Amazon UK.

For mere £648, that's $1020 to you folks across the pond!

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## John McGann

Amazon USA has a copy for a mere $200, but if you dig around the interwebs enough...

I actually had email communication, back around 2005, with someone from the company that now owns the Oak Publications rights, and he said they'd consider republishing it if there was enough demand...so if someone wants to organize a petition to get it back in print, I'd imagine with the poor state that publishing houses are in, they'd maybe do a run of 300-500 books...it would be worth the effort for any curious mandolinists, because that book is a gold mine, and will open your mind to undreamed-of possibilities on the instrument!

Jesse is a unique and unsung genius.

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## Werner Jaekel

All for it, depending on the price and availability via amazon.de

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## pefjr

deleted

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## MandoSquirrel

> Amazon USA has a copy for a mere $200, but if you dig around the interwebs enough...
> 
> I actually had email communication, back around 2005, with someone from the company that now owns the Oak Publications rights, and he said they'd consider republishing it if there was enough demand...so if someone wants to organize a petition to get it back in print, I'd imagine with the poor state that publishing houses are in, they'd maybe do a run of 300-500 books...it would be worth the effort for any curious mandolinists, because that book is a gold mine, and will open your mind to undreamed-of possibilities on the instrument!
> 
> Jesse is a unique and unsung genius.


So, who's going to take charge of the petition?!

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## mandocrucian

Out of curiousity, what are the other books in the Oak Bluegrass Masters selling for these days?

Vassar Clements - fiddle
Kenny Baker - fiddle
Clarence White - guitar

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## blueridgemandolin

Is the book still under Copyright, just wondering if some one could get a copy and scan it and give it away to the people who want to take a look at it or play with and see what it is all about.
Dan

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## EdSherry

Yes, it's still under copyright.   In the US, copyright lasts for the life of the author plus 70 years.  Andy Statman is still alive and kicking (and picking).

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## journeybear

Please forgive me if I am asking something which is well-known or obvious, but I would like to know how it is that the cross-picking patterns described earlier are so narrowly defined. When I was introduced to cross-picking some three decades or more ago, I was told it was a matter of picking notes on the several strings while holding the hand still, rather than picking notes on a single string (or two) while moving the hand. Either way notes are moving up and down the scale, but they are being produced differently, with distinctly different sounds and effects. After fooling around with this for a while it dawned on me that this is the mandolin equivalent of not only banjo rolls, but chord arpeggiations - that is, unless "arpeggiating a chord" is also narrowly defined to be only playing the notes in ascending or descending order.

Granting that I may have misunderstood the term "cross-picking" from the start, I am having trouble understanding how it is defined as limited to a 3-3-2 rhythmic pattern. This syncopation is not very common in bluegrass (in my admittedly limited experience I have rarely heard it), where the technique originated (other than in banjo rolls), dominated by 4/4, 2/4, and 3/4 time signatures, apart from occasional added or dropped beats, measures, and half-measures. As such, it plays off the rhythm the rest of the band is playing, rather than flowing with it. It seems to me this technique should be called "McReynolds-style cross-picking," much as "Scruggs-style" has been applied to banjo picking - that is, a specific style of cross-picking rather than the main thing itself.

I am going on about this because I use a straight 4/4 16th note cross-picking technique now and then as a different flavoring in certain songs. I like the way this makes the notes of chords ring while still adding the motion of successive notes (as eloquently depicted by John McGann in his description of the John Stropes transcriptions in Post #28), which enables longer-lasting chords without just strumming them. Also it makes a very pleasant tinkling sound, adding some variety to the ensemble sound. I have always thought of this as cross-picking, and have never really standardized my technique into a strict pattern or patterns. I tend to play all strings as equally as possible, though I tend to exclude the G string (I am most interested in handling the high end of a band 's audio spectrum), and also change positions/fingerings occasionally within a chord's duration in the song's chord structure. More often than not I am doing this for backup, not lead, though I may well incorporate this into a lead if I take one in that song - thematic continuity, so to speak. If this is not cross-picking, could someone please tell me what it is?

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## pickloser

If I may presume to paraphrase earlier posts, the "narrowly-defined cross-picking patterns" you note, are the patterns originally developed by Jesse McReynolds to emulate banjo rolls.  The patterns did not use strict alternating pick directions; they used consecutive downstrokes or upstrokes followed by a stroke in the other direction, I believe.  A string was also "jumped" to complete the pattern.  Other stringed instrument players, apparently mostly guitarists, copied this sound from McReynolds or possibly from banjos.  These patterns jumped a string too, but used strictly alternating pick strokes.  They misappropriated the term cross-picking, and should have more accurately referred to it as "across string picking," reserving the crosspicking term for the McReynolds pattern.  Although a few mandolin players may have caved in to this broadening of the term to any roll type pattern that jumps a string (for example, Mike Marshall has exercises in Improvisational Concepts for both type patterns termed "cross picking patterns"), the alternating picking patterns and the double pick in the same direction pattern create quite different rhythmic impressions.  Thus, the term cross picking should be reserved for the pattern as originally developed by Mr. McReynolds.  

JB, if you are using alternating pick strokes, and you are crossing a non-played string while doing so, you are doing cross string picking or across string picking, but you are not crosspicking.

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## journeybear

> JB, if you are using alternating pick strokes, and you are crossing a non-played string while doing so, you are doing cross string picking or across string picking, but you are not crosspicking.


The problem I am having with the way these terms have been defined here stems from this analysis by John McGann, in which he says: "There are two basic patterns (imagine strings 4 3 2)- a reverse roll is DUUDUUDU strings 42342343. A forward roll would be DDUDDUDU strings 43243243 ... Applying alternate picking patterns to the above crosspicking pattern does NOT make it crosspicking. True crosspicking is based on DDUDDUDU or DUUDUUDU patterns across the strings-not alternate picking." He defines alternate picking as "the art of plectrum (pick) playing which places a downstroke on the downbeat and the upstroke on the upbeat, so the pattern would look like DUDUDUDU for 8 eighth notes in a 4/4 measure." 

I understand the meaning of "alternate picking" defined this way, and that this is not crosspicking, nor even how I would define crosspicking. This is alternating downstrokes and uostrokes on one string, while crosspicking involves more than one string. However, the way he has defined crosspicking necessitates crossing a non-played string twice in each eight-note pattern, each time there is a 4-2 or 2-4 played, so I can't agree with that part of your statement. He does say McReynolds developed crosspicking to emulate Scruggs' banjo rolls -which I totally get - but limiting this kind of playing to just these two forms doesn't make sense to me. There are more ways to pick in this fashion than those two specified, and to my line of thinking that is crosspicking -  with these specific patterns being "McReynolds-style" or "original" or "classic," incorporating the 3-3-2 rhythmic pattern, but not the only way to do it.

If I understand such things correctly (necessary disclaimer  :Wink: ), terminology protocol sets forth general characteristics, and then specific examples are named. If it were up to me (all these years later), I would call the general technique "crosspicking," and name these two variants as above. If Mike Marshall or Andy Statman comes up with a different pattern, unique to him, the fist one to do it, that should be named after him. If I could reproduce what I do on a consistent basis, I should be able to do the same. Personally, I would call it "nitpicking" and have done with it, because it kind of coincides with my theory.  :Grin:  But if Jesse were the only one playing this way, and there were no other way to play the instrument in a way like this, the point would be moot. But that is not the case.

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## margora

"Jesse has some specific patterns on 3 strings that are basic- the forward roll and reverse roll. Most crosspicking is based from those foundations. I remember it took me a LONG time to get it going, because I had years of strict alternate picking ingrained in my playing."

I agree with Mr. McGann on the above as well as his specific definition of JMR cross-picking (which is narrowly but correctly defined).   

However, if one is trained in classical mandolin rh methods, as I am -- by which I mean starting with baroque (Leone) through Calace through modern German -- there is nothing at all difficult about JMR cross-picking.   I have no practical bluegrass or fiddle tune experience (other than reading standard notation of the same) but I have no problem whatsoever executing JMR forward or backward rolls or whatever at very fast tempos.   The issue, as Mr. McGann implies in his post, is modern-American-popular-mandolin-strict-alternate-picking technique, which is too narrow, in my view, to encompass useful skills on the mandolin, regardless of the genre of music one plays.

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## blueridgemandolin

It seems like I remember someone on here a while back had a link to a pdf copy of the book, best I can remember it did not stay on here long.  Guess that explains why, since the copyright is still in effect.
Dan

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## EdSherry

To add to the terminological debate:   In Dan Crary's "The Flatpickers' Guide," he uses the term "cross-picking" to refer to a syncopated string-crossing pattern using alternating (DUDU) picking.   I acknowledge the distinction between DDUDDUDU (or DUUDUUDU) and alternating picking, and they really do sound different, but to say that the term "cross-picking" has to be reserved for McReynolds-style DUUDUUDU playing (or its guitaristic DDUDDUDU counterpart) seems to suggest that what Crary does isn't cross-picking.   I don't know about you, but IMHO Crary does a pretty darn good job of it, whatever you want to call it.

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## mandocrucian

OY VEY!!!   :Disbelief:  

_"Someone's had to much to think! Case of the punks!"_ 
- Captain Beefheart ("Ash Tray Heart")

This one can _only_ be resolved by calling in (drumroll please).... the "*Term*inator" (makin' copies....)

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## journeybear

Now you're just being silly!  :Laughing:  But if it's time for comic relief, that "too much to think" line reminded me of this psychedelic classic ...



Remarkable how they reproduced the studio recording note for note, complete with fuzz effects and that backward tape sound for the lead guitar. Plus it's amazing that they were able to do this without plugging in their instruments, and that the singer didn't use a mike, and played an autoharp that wasn't on the recording. Very impressive. Ain't technology grand?   :Grin: 

And now, we return you to your previously scheduled programming, already in progress ...  :Whistling:

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## John McGann

Of course Dan Crary, Mike Marshall, Chris Thile are exemplary musicians, and they can call whatever they do whatever they want.
So can anybody who just bought their first Morgan Monroe.

Tony Rice doesn't alternate pick, he doesn't "call" it anything other than "common sense". Alternate picking will not get you into the Tony Rice zone, even if you play his lines note for note. His phrasing, timing and feel are connected with how he picks.

The only reason I present that there is a distinction between alternate picking and crosspicking is that it _yields different articulations_. Articulation is a word that most plectrum players don't think about, but wind and bowed string players live there. It's the way the notes speak, and the rhythmic effect that the articulation has on the musical line being played.

I am not only a musician, but also a teacher, and function, in Matt Glaser's words "as a clearing house for ideas". When someone is asking me, as a teacher, if it 'really makes a difference', it would be irresponsible for me to say 'whatever works, man...' The truth is obvious in the differences in the sound. Play the bridge of "Stoney Creek"  with DUU style picking a la Jesse, and then with alternate picking. It is not the same.

Someone usually rises at this point and says something like "well, if you were such a hot shot, you could put accents on the upstrokes to get the same effect". Theoretically-sure. In reality- downstrokes and upstrokes sound different, especially if you use rest strokes (one of the important factors in the DDU phrasing).

Specific sounds sometimes require specific techniques. Anything else is an approximation. Life is short, so either 'close enough' is OK, or life is too short for 'close enough'.

Is it micro-dweeby, micro-nerdy to be so (pun intended) picky? I don't know, is it micro-nerdy when your carpenter, plumber, car mechanic, dentist, surgeon really pays attention to the fine points and details? Is Jackson Pollack the same as Magritte?

Whether you agree or think I'm just a windbag, I wish everyone great fun and great music.

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Jordan Ramsey

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## mandocrucian

> *Articulation* is a word that most plectrum players don't think about, but wind and bowed string players live there. It's the way the notes speak, and the rhythmic effect that the articulation has on the musical line being played.


*ABSOLUTELY*! 
And add all the most expressive electric guitar players: Knopfler, Thompson, Santana, Hendrix, Green, Gilmour, BB.................. 

_Will the wind ever remember 
The names it has blown in the past? 
And with his crutch, its old age, and it's wisdom 
It whispers "No, this will be the last" 
And the wind cries Mary_

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## margora

"The only reason I present that there is a distinction between alternate picking and crosspicking is that it yields different articulations. Articulation is a word that most plectrum players don't think about, but wind and bowed string players live there. It's the way the notes speak, and the rhythmic effect that the articulation has on the musical line being played."

As earlier, I agree with Mr. McGann.   JMR cross-picking + the many other rh patterns that are common in classical mandolin (but not in popular American mandolin) give distinct articulations to the music in question.   In the classical mandolin literature these things are the way they are -- for example, in Calace -- because the composer intends them.  Ignoring such in favor of some other rh technique is a musical error.

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## journeybear

I don't think anyone was talking about ignoring one technique in favor of another. I have often thought and sometimes spoken of using a musical palette analogous to a painter's, which contains all manner of techniques, styles, genres, what have you, in order to incorporate whatever is deemed fit into a performance. Thus I tend toward inclusion, not exclusion, and choice, rather than interdiction. My issue in this discussion has not been of usage, but terminology. 

I am with John McGann in his desire for precision and clarity, and a wish for those learning an instrument to strive for excellence, rather than compromise and rationalization of shortcomings. "Good enough" may not actually _be_ good enough. To be clear, whenever I say "whatever works, works" (which I haven't here, by the way, nor will), I don't mean I have settled for something less than what I wished to achieve, but that I have found a way that works, even if it may not be perfect. But I think I have wandered afield from the topic ... Well, it's close enough to what I meant. I think ...  :Wink:

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## ald

.."Theoretically-sure. In reality- downstrokes and upstrokes sound different, especially if you use rest strokes" Jim could you elaborate on the importance of rest strokes in this context please?

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## pickloser

If across string picking in a roll pattern can't be claimed to be crosspicking, then those who can only across string pick can't claim to be able to crosspick.  So the tendency would be for those who across string pick to want the term crosspick to include what they do ("sure, I can crosspick"), and those who have learned the McReynolds patterns and believe it to be a distinctly different technique well worth acquiring, would tend to want the term to be limited to the McReynolds patterns (nope, what you are doing is not crosspicking").  

I about lived on McGann's pages rent free for a month or two when I started playing; Jordan Ramsey's exercise for tremolo posted here has been very helpful.  Both are helpful, informative, and encouraging, and I admire them as mandolinists.  Therefore, since I can't crosspick McReynolds style, I can't crosspick on the mandolin.  (I get the distinct impression that Nils H., who sent me Up the Neck, doesn't care either way.)  Stick a fork in me.

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## greg_tsam

I guess the OP is really impressed by 4 pages of discussion and banter about what exactly is and isn't correctly labeled crosspicking.  Obviously there are different types of crosspicking techniques to choose from.  Hopefully their question was answered before we deviated on the minutia that is both stereotypical and endearing of the Cafe crowd.  I enjoy opposing viewpoints and energetic discussion especially when we can express ourselves passionately yet remain civil.




> Stick a fork in me.


*Sticks a fork in pickloser for probably not the last time.




> Whether you agree or think I'm just a windbag, I wish everyone great fun and great music.


haha..  Seeing how you're a college professor it might be a little of both but we still love you anyway, John.   :Grin:

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## John McGann

> .."Theoretically-sure. In reality- downstrokes and upstrokes sound different, especially if you use rest strokes" Jim could you elaborate on the importance of rest strokes in this context please?


I'm not Jim, but I'll try  :Wink: 

In a DDU roll on strings 432 or 321, the first down is played and the pick comes to rest on the next string. The 2nd pick stroke, then, is basically a continuation of the 1st- similar to a 'sweep pick'. This is an ancient technique, as Mr. Magora has mentioned, and is also used in oud playing, classical guitar and mandolin, as well as being the prevalent technique used in Django style gypsy jazz guitar. The sound it produces is full and rich, the strings are vibrating in a circular axis (watch the string ring after a 'free stroke' with the pick going out into the air, vs. a rest stroke, and you'll see as well as hear what I mean). It produces a sound fundamentally different from a down/up.

The rest stroke is a technique also used by one William Smith Monroe. It certainly harkens back to the pre-electricity days, when musicians needed to project acoustically across dance floors and ballrooms. It produces the most volume and tone, because it gets the instrument to ring in the most efficient manner.

I learned alternate (and free stroke) picking first, and believed that everything could be played with that technique...and that's pretty much true, but some passages are easier to play with consecutive pick strokes. The main point is they do sound and feel different. Viva la difference! It's great to know there are choices.

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## John McGann

> If across string picking in a roll pattern can't be claimed to be crosspicking, then those who can only across string pick can't claim to be able to crosspick.  So the tendency would be for those who across string pick to want the term crosspick to include what they do ("sure, I can crosspick"), and those who have learned the McReynolds patterns and believe it to be a distinctly different technique well worth acquiring, would tend to want the term to be limited to the McReynolds patterns (nope, what you are doing is not crosspicking").


In real life, these terms are not going to have the kind of 'stricter definition' that I use. That's life, and I'm not so pedantic to say "that's bad" or "wrong". I just call it cross string picking. There are times I do it myself, too. It's just another tool in the toolbox. I just think calling a hammer "scissors" is kind of imprecise.




> I about lived on McGann's pages rent free for a month or two when I started playing; Jordan Ramsey's exercise for tremolo posted here has been very helpful.  Both are helpful, informative, and encouraging, and I admire them as mandolinists.  Therefore, since I can't crosspick McReynolds style, I can't crosspick on the mandolin.  (I get the distinct impression that Nils H., who sent me Up the Neck, doesn't care either way.)  Stick a fork in me.


I hope you are just being sarcastic (no smiley, man?). If you don't care to crosspick McReynolds Style (As Enforced By The McGann International Music Police), the world will still turn, you will still make fine music, and live a happy life. I only care what other people do in that part of my Job on the Force while on Earth is to be a (hopefully helpful) Instructor. 

Seriously, I am not a fan of the Music Police (the same pedantic dweeb wearing different clothes in each style of music, wagging a finger and saying 'no, no'), and hate to think that I am coming off that way. 

Now, hit the floor and give me 20 Rawhides at whole note=408!  :Mandosmiley:  :Mandosmiley:  :Mandosmiley:

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## Werner Jaekel

I cannot contribute to this subject. I would be very happy I were able to do any, alternate picking or crosspicking , nearly as good as John McGann or any of ye. So this discussion seems rather academic to me, though I am aware that the tradition of this music we like is very important. We want to keep this music alive and maintain it for future generations. Including all the variations and terms and whatever we regard important. Same goes for irish, scottish or any folk. 

I have another question. A few days ago I got "Mandolin Crosspicking Technique" from Mickey Cochran. I had quick preliminary run through the pages and I must say I think it is very good and helpful and answers alot of questions I have.  

Will not any lecturer and anyone who is writing about this subject will have to take account of what Andy Statman or Jesse McReynolds or any other artist  invented or improved ? And will not this book by Mickey Cochran also have these elements included ?

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## John McGann

Mickey's book is cross string alternate picking, not McReynolds style. You can apply Jesse's picking patterns to many of the examples, and the music in the book is all good and valid, how about if we call it a 'different take' on crosspicking...

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## pickloser

Professor McGann, you got me wrong.  I meant if that's the way you want it, then good enough.  You are not a policeman, you are an expert.  I owe you, and I'm gonna have it your way.  I appreciate the help you give.  I'd like to be able to crosspick.  If I live long enough, I hope to get to it. 

(Right now, I think trying to acquire that skill would mess up that other thing I learned that's not crosspicking. :Wink:   Get the fork back out Greg.)

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## greg_tsam

I never put it away.  I knew you'd be back.   :Smile:   I can't believe we're still forking talking about x-picking.

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## John McGann

You know what? Whether you use Jesse style or alternate picking, _it sounds really good,_ doesn't it?!?  :Mandosmiley:

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## ald

Well, alternate picking or crosspicking, what I would really like to know is how exactly you fit a melody into such a pattern. How would I take a melody and work a pattern around it? For instance there is a tune by Alison Kraus singing the Beatle's I do (I think) and there is a banjo cross-picking solo. Very nice but how does he/she flesh out the melody, according to what principles?

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## John McGann

As in Scruggs style banjo, the melody notes are generally surrounded by (mostly) chord tones and sometimes scale notes from the key/mode of the moment.

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## Lee Lauridsen

Does anyone have copies of John McGann's cross-picking materials?  Unfortunately, for obvious and sad reasons, the links to his website no longer work.

Thanks!

Lee Lauridsen
Lawrence, Kansas

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## Pasha Alden

Thanks to J Ramsey and all for an insightful discussion.   I think definitions are as powerful as their clarity and succinct description.

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## Mandoplumb

Getting in on this late but as I understand it Jesse was using banjo rolls with a flat pick. The main banjo rolls are forward and reverse, but sometimes this won't work in the melody so there are other, less used rolls ( in and out, forward backward etc) but the rythem or timing remains constant or another way to say it is the time between notes is the same. We've all heard banjo players? that "gallop" rather than roll. That comes from thinking 1,2,3 now I' ve finished start again. In a roll the time between 3 and 1 is the same as between 1and 2or 2 and 3. This is what I think defines true cross picking and is not necessarily true in alternate picking. Both have a use in mandolin playing but are different, having worked on "true cross picking" for years I think it is harder to do correctly.  IMHO

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## Jim Garber

> Does anyone have copies of John McGann's cross-picking materials?  Unfortunately, for obvious and sad reasons, the links to his website no longer work.


You can find the page on *archive.org*. I don't know if that link will work so here is the actual page content from the site:




> WHAT IS CROSSPICKING?
> 
> "Crosspicking" is a term that is often confused with alternate picking. Let's define our terms:
> 
> ALTERNATE PICKING: The art of plectrum (pick) playing which places a downstroke on the downbeat and the upstroke on the upbeat, so the pattern would look like DUDUDUDU for 8 eighth notes in a 4/4 measure.
> 
> The strength of this style is that your right hand becomes trained to deal with any string grouping (although not all are as comfortable as others). This "all-purpose" technique allows you to play fast, fluid lines without getting "hung up". However, the emphasis is always strong/weak, grouped in twos, when playing groups of 8th notes.
> 
> CROSSPICKING: Developed by master mandolinist Jesse McReynolds in emulation of the bluegrass banjo sounds of Earl Scruggs, but probably used for centuries in "world music". There are two basic patterns (imagine strings 4 3 2)- a reverse roll is DUUDUUDU strings 42342343. A forward roll would be DDUDDUDU strings 43243243.
> ...

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Grommet

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