# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  Bluegrass: The new Americana!

## DataNick

Not trolling here; just stating a perception that to me seems accurate.

Remember how just a few years ago, _Americana_, was the catch-all label to classify by genre various strains of folk, indie-pop/rock, country-indie, etc. that people had trouble identifying as a genre brand?

Well that has now been replaced by the label _Bluegrass_. No longer Monroe's music as practiced with a certain formula, but now just about every acoustic configuration out there is at home with the Bluegrass label. Why? I think because the general public really doesn't know or care to be honest how that Flatt & Scruggs is so different than String Cheese Incident or any other folk or jam band out there. That's right: the majority of what passes as bluegrass today, I would simply characterize as country-folk, indie, or progressive acoustic _music performed with bluegrass music instrumentation._

I gurantee you I could go out tonite with an accordion player, a guitarist, myself on mando, and play whatever we want in any style we want; and at the end of the night call it bluegrass; and no one would know the difference or even care!

Is this bad? Not necessarily.

Am I mad or angry?  Heck no!

_Just an observation_. So instead of arguing about what is or is not bluegrass these days, I prefer to say when asked that I play Bill Monroe's music, in his style...the whole bluegrass thing, unfortunately is really getting tiring!

Contribute or comment as you will; let's keep it positive & civil.

_To say that the Emperor has no clothes is not to be mean; it's just stating an observation!_

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DavidKOS, 

George R. Lane, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

tangleweeds

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## crisscross

It would be nice, if you could deliver exampels, where exactly which country folk or acoustic indie bands are called "Bluegrass".
I searched for "String Cheese Incident" and found an article in Wikipedia that says:



> Their music has *elements of bluegrass sounds*, as well as rock, electronica, calypso, country, funk, jazz, Latin, progressive rock, reggae, and occasional psychedelia.


 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_St...heese_Incident

In the German Wikipedia you can read



> . Country, Folk, *Bluegrass* lassen sich in ihrer Musik wiederfinden. Aber auch Rock, Jazz und Blues klingen an,


https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_St...heese_Incident

In both cases Bluegrass is refered to as one of the elements of their sound, not the general style they play.

So who exactly calls which Americana musicians "Bluegrass"?

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DataNick

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## DataNick

Hey Cris,

In a general sense, promoters/booking agents for "Bluegrass" festivals book bands that don't even call themselves "bluegrass" as bluegrass acts. String Cheese is one, another quick one that comes to mind is Della Mae, whose own website refers to their style as "Americana". Barefoot Movement is another; just check festival lineups, listen to the bands discography and you can figure it out. BTW: I'm labeling some of these groups that I hear by the "country-folk, indie" etc monikers just based on what I hear in their music, but yet they are consistently booked as bluegrass acts.

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DavidKOS

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## Ivan Kelsall

Personally,while understanding the roots of DN's post,i'd say that maybe the majority of folks attending the IBMA festival might disagree. All people interested in Bluegrass music know how it sounds when played as it should be. Presented with the line up of instruments as quoted - accordion etc.,i'm pretty sure that true Bluegrass fans wouldn't accept it as Bluegrass,some weird offshoot maybe,but not 'true' Bluegrass. That some folk really 'don't care' about any particular line up,doesn't negate the validity of ''true Bluegrass'' as a distinct music,having a distinct sound & having a distinct instrumental line up.  Call it what you will,have whatever instruments you decide to have,it's still NOT Bluegrass to the _real_ fans - IMHO. It seems to me that even the bands mentioned above don't consider themselves as Bluegrass bands & to me they're not,despite having some instrumentation in common with a Bluegrass band. Even Alison Krauss's band quit calling themselves a Bluegrass band a while back. They maybe booked as Bluegrass acts,maybe because a specific name for their music hasn't been decided on,however,i do think that they _shouldn't_ be classed as Bluegrass,even if it's only to prevent folk expecting to see / hear a Bluegrass band from being disappointed,
                                                                                                                              Ivan :Wink:

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DataNick

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## DataNick

Ivan,

Good points, however IBMA is pretty unique. In another thread a cafe member who professes not to be really into bluegrass, said while they were at GreyFox, they couldn't help but wonder why so few of the booked bands actually _played_ bluegrass!...also I see this as a way that bands are getting festival gigs, whereas if they didn't market themselves as a "bluegrass act" they wouldn't get a sniff of a lot of festival work. I mean really, how many Americana, Indie Pop festivals, etc are there out there that have the numbers, established fan base, and drawing power that a lot of the bigger bluegrass festivals have?

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FLATROCK HILL, 

Timbofood

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## crisscross

> Della Mae, whose own website refers to their style as "Americana".


Thanks for the example, Nick. I searched Youtube for Della Mae and found "Mabeline" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ptAW1LAfCU
The one BG element lacking is a 5-string banjo, but others such as fiddle, upright bass, mando chop, the one microphone thing or a capoed dreadnought played out of the G-position are certainly present.
So I guess, somebody with only cursory knowledge might classify them as BG as well as classifying the Gypsy Kings "Flamenco".

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DataNick

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## DavidKOS

> . Presented with the line up of instruments as quoted - accordion etc.,i'm pretty sure that true Bluegrass fans wouldn't accept it as Bluegrass,some weird offshoot maybe,but not 'true' Bluegrass.)


Bluegrass Accordion?

Bill Monroe had one in his a version of his early bands played by Sally Forrester:



I guess that makes accordion at least "some part of something"in Bluegrass terms.

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Christine Robins, 

DataNick, 

Jess L., 

Mandobart

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## Ivan Kelsall

Hi Nick - I've very often wondered re.the line ups some ''Bluegrass'' festivals have. I feel that many of them might be trying to attract more attendees by having non-trad. Bluegrass bands = something for everybody ?. It happens in the UK as well,not all the bands are Bluegrass 'proper'. However in our case,there aren't that many bands to fill a full festival.
   Bill Monroe's band in the photo. above was ''Bluegrass'' in name only at that time.The sound of Bluegrass as we've come to define it today,didn't arrive until Earl Scruggs joined the Bluegrass Boys - but most of us know that.
    It might be an unpalatable fact,but for many folk,_Bluegrass simply doesn't feature in their musical tastes._ For us 100% Bluegrassers,it's hard to imagine folk 'not' being into Bluegrass when we can hardly let a day go by without it. Festivals,have to make money,or they cease to exist & if it takes Bluegrass ''off-shoots'' to get folk attending,then it has to be good,as long as they don't take over completely - also,many of these bands are ''good in their own right'' & very enjoyable to listen to. I'll go with that mix any day as long as the music is 'musical' & well played,& is 'in context' with the rest of the music being played,
                                                                                                                                                         Ivan :Wink:

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DataNick, 

SlowFingers

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## Bertram Henze

> somebody with only cursory knowledge


...in other words, the vast majority. I have met people who called my Irish trad. tunes "Cowboy Songs" - but that's OK, they might have called it "Volksmusik"  :Cow:

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## Mandoplumb

I keep seeing the statement that Bill Monroe used an accordion in his band and I know that is true,but when he started The Bluegrass Boys it was a "hillbilly" band. The bluegrass name was in honor of his home, not his style of music. He had Stringbean playing banjo and no one would call that bluegrass. Bluegrass as we know it (or have known it) didn't become a style until Earl Scruggs joined the Bluegrass Boys and the style took the name of the band. After that I don't think we saw organs and accordions and such in the band.

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DataNick, 

DavidKOS

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## Bob Visentin

I played bass guitar in a cajun/zydeco band for 14 years.  We also had fiddle, button accordion, electric guitar, peddle steel, and drums.  It was not uncommon for some people to call us bluegrass but we were never booked that way.  We did play some Americana and blues festivals.  Many people just don't know.  One woman I talked to did not know the difference between the bass and the accordion!

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DataNick

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## Eric C.

My band gets labeled as bluegrass all the time. Granted we do play _some_ bluegrass, we play mostly original music that most certainly is not bluegrass.

It does irk me a little bit when venues label us as bluegrass as I feel it may mislead some folks before the show. We haven't run into anything negative from this labeling yet (3+ years), but I'm sure some purists may show up expecting true bluegrass at some point.

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DataNick, 

Ivan Kelsall

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## onassis

Seems to be a strange cross-contamination occurring.  Wasn't too long ago that Chris Pandolfi wrote about why the Infamous Strindusters chose not to market themselves as a "bluegrass" band.  Festival promoters no longer seem to shy away from the label.  Guess bands like the Strindusters, String Cheese, and Steep Canyon Rangers have proven that young jam-band loving crowds will come out to see groups they dig, no matter the label.

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DataNick

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## Jess L.

> ... I have met people who called my *Irish trad*. tunes *"Cowboy Songs"*...


 :Laughing:  Just on a lark I Googled "irish cowboy songs"  :Grin:  and unexpectedly found some fascinating historical info: 

Ireland's Forgotten Cowboys, by CuChullaine O'Reilly
*Music*-related, *Scotland* allegedly origin of American cowboy songs: 1998 magazine article Cowboy Celtic, by Rob Gibson (their band has a *mandolin* as well)

Huh. It's all news to me, certainly different than the Hollywood cowboy/cattle-drive image. Interesting.




> ... "Volksmusik"...


Not sure what Volksmusik sounds like exactly, but I do have part of a very beautiful German-language recording I found in my dad's stuff of a presumably-Alpine-y song, no yodeling but it does mention snow,  :Whistling:  modern-ish group though (Zupfgeigenhansel), mighty purty music. That particular song has 'crooked' timing, one measure has a different number of beats than the other measures, I never even noticed that until I tried to write down the tune on paper and then the odd timing became apparent. 

Ok yeah I'm like *way* off-topic  :Disbelief:  from bluegrass (but there *was* mandolin content! um but not that much), but the Scots/Irish/cowboy thing possibly of some relevance as a general example of how music grows and changes with different influences. Anyway, ceasing and desisting now.  :Smile:  Carry on.  :Smile:   :Mandosmiley:

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DataNick

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## Bertram Henze

> Not sure what Volksmusik sounds like exactly


I can help you with that, but BEWARE: have a bucket ready...




> I do have part of a very beautiful German-language recording I found in my dad's stuff


That is about what Volksmusik originally meant in a strict sense, long ago. It's a dilution process, just like with the original Bluegrass, which might be renamed Truegrass to make a difference.

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DataNick, 

Jess L., 

tangleweeds

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## crisscross

> Not sure what Volksmusik sounds like exactly,


The German Wikipedia writes the following:



> Volksmusik bezeichnet zum einen die traditionelle, häufig schriftlos überlieferte Musik. Sie ist für bestimmte Regionalkulturen charakteristisch oder wird dafür gehalten. Sie umfasst Volkslieder, instrumentale Stücke und Musik für Volkstanz.
> 
> Im allgemeinen Sprachgebrauch umfasst Volksmusik davon abweichend auch volkstümliche Schlager, also moderne Unterhaltungsmusik mit Elementen der traditionellen Volksmusik.


That means something like:

Originally _Volksmusik_ is traditional music that was mostly handed down by oral tradition.

In a general sense_ Volksmusik_ is popular commercial music with elements of traditional music.

An example for the first is your dad's record or most other songs by the group 
_Zupfgeigenhansel_ who played German folksongs acoustically with nice acoustic arrangements. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuvcN7L-Hig

Examples for the second meaning are Bertram's bucket-filling_ Wildecker Herzbuben_ or the _Medium Terzett_ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXef_df3Eto

Not to forget Germany's Volksmusik-Star: _Heino_ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeEki7Ft8KQ

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DataNick, 

Jess L.

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## Timbofood

I'm in the same camp as you Nick! "We" are so eager to homogenize and classify things into categories that the term has become so broad stroked it doesn't carry much water unless you're at IBMA or an "old school" festival.
As for Wikipedia it's a tool and can be sharpened or dulled by anyone who wants to bother. I'm not much of a fan of it.
As a friend says
"It's not the browning of the culture that I mind, it's the dumbing of that culture that I mind."
It's easier to be "flexible" and accept that people are getting too lazy to really learn something than to have them really learn.
Carry on, this is an exception to that theorem. Most visitors here have taken some time to learn about the things they write about and, are willing to share and teach any and all who WANT to learn something.
Hey Nick, this is another good thought provoker you have started! The Monroe video one really took me back! Strong work.
Nice photo David! I guess we all have to remember that this music, as most, are always in a state of flux (just ask Jerry Douglas). Ok I will go to my corner now.

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DataNick, 

DavidKOS

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## Fretbear

Jason Isbell didn't get the memo......and his wife is a fiddle player

(I always appreciate your posts Nick)

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DataNick

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## Willie Poole

I don`t go to as many festivals as I used to simply because the bands are not true bluegrass bands...Two of the festivals here in Md. that I was always booked on used to be over flowing with RV`s and campers and last year I went and was so bored with what bands they had booked that I left after watching 1/2 of one day, I also noticed that the place was only about 1/4 filled with RV`s and campers and no field picking at all....I blame the promoters for this slack in attendance for booking the so called Bluegrass bands that aren`t really bluegrass....I also know that out in California it is a different story, some friends of mine traveled out there to perform on a few festivals and they said there was only three traditional bluegrass bands on the show for the whole weekend....I spend the winter months in Florida and have been for the past 17 years and when I first started doing it I could pick as many as 10 bluegrass festivals within a 100 mile radius to go to, this past year there were 2 and I looked at the line ups and not one band appealed to me to go and sit and listen to them....One fetival down there offers free admission and they still can`t draw a crowd because they don`t book true bluegrass bands, they even hav a DJ to fill one spot and he plays and sings to recorded music and it is not bluegrass, one band came out on the stage no banjo, no mandolin, just a guitar, an electric bass and a KEYBOARD, I watched as about 75% of the people that had gathered near the stage got up and started walking around looking at the vendors stands....Maybe, just maybe those folks have had enough of what is being called bluegrass, I know that when my band plays just about all of the requests that we get are for the "true bluegrass" tunes of Flatt and Scruggs, Monroe, Stanleys, Jim and Jesse , and a lot of Country Gents and Seldom Scene music, mostly because they were from this area.....

     I don`t have the answer, if I did I would try and change it, Nick, call it Americana or what ever you want to and I`ll still play what I know to be "True Bluegrass"

      Willie

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albeham, 

DataNick

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## Franc Homier Lieu

> I think because the general public really doesn't know or care to be honest how that Flatt & Scruggs is so different than String Cheese Incident or any other folk or jam band out there.

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DataNick

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## Bertram Henze

> Not to forget Germany's Volksmusik-Star: _Heino_ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeEki7Ft8KQ


Which brings us, in a way, most directly to Michael Jackson  :Grin:

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DataNick

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## DataNick

> I don`t go to as many festivals as I used to simply because the bands are not true bluegrass bands...Two of the festivals here in Md. that I was always booked on used to be over flowing with RV`s and campers and last year I went and was so bored with what bands they had booked that I left after watching 1/2 of one day, I also noticed that the place was only about 1/4 filled with RV`s and campers and no field picking at all....I blame the promoters for this slack in attendance for booking the so called Bluegrass bands that aren`t really bluegrass....I also know that out in California it is a different story, some friends of mine traveled out there to perform on a few festivals and they said there was only three traditional bluegrass bands on the show for the whole weekend....I spend the winter months in Florida and have been for the past 17 years and when I first started doing it I could pick as many as 10 bluegrass festivals within a 100 mile radius to go to, this past year there were 2 and I looked at the line ups and not one band appealed to me to go and sit and listen to them....One fetival down there offers free admission and they still can`t draw a crowd because they don`t book true bluegrass bands, they even hav a DJ to fill one spot and he plays and sings to recorded music and it is not bluegrass, one band came out on the stage no banjo, no mandolin, just a guitar, an electric bass and a KEYBOARD, I watched as about 75% of the people that had gathered near the stage got up and started walking around looking at the vendors stands....Maybe, just maybe those folks have had enough of what is being called bluegrass, I know that when my band plays just about all of the requests that we get are for the "true bluegrass" tunes of Flatt and Scruggs, Monroe, Stanleys, Jim and Jesse , and a lot of Country Gents and Seldom Scene music, mostly because they were from this area.....
> 
>      I don`t have the answer, if I did I would try and change it, Nick, call it Americana or what ever you want to and I`ll still play what I know to be "True Bluegrass"
> 
>       Willie


What Willie describes has in fact happened out here over the last 3 years to a festival called Huck Finn Jubilee.

For over 30 years, one individual, Don Tucker, ran this festival, and it was a bastion for "traditional" bluegrass, RV camping and jamming. When Mr. Tucker passed away a little more than 3 years ago, the festival switched hands or was "acquired" by the city of Ontario. They have made very well documented and calculated changes to the festival that have discouraged and almost outright eliminated RV camping...resulting in almost no jamming...resulting in a nosedive in grassers showing up...resulting in selling almost exclusively 1-2 day tickets, sans camping. Factor in the lineup changes and the event is now a "music festival", but the things that made it a premier bluegrass festival are gone, and so are the overwhelming majority of the grassers. The fallout from this resulted in the emergence of another festival, Route 66, to take the place of Huck Finn within the bluegrass community.

The following is a message from a Cafe member to me, decrying the state of affairs: _"What gives? No Huck this year?? Amazing how little jamming was actually going on. Only one on Thursday night, NONE on Friday night, Saturday had a few and only one on Sunday night. Really depressing. But the bands were unbelieveable. "_...YMMV

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## Timbofood

I have not been to a festival in years, life has taken me on a different route with grandchildren (though, never a parent) having June birthdays, the festival I cut my teeth on in Charlotte, MI. has changed management a couple of times, now it's in the hands of some serious picking loving people! I understand that some folks may not sleep more than an hour or two a night still! It is interesting to see how some places feel a need to change and others soldier on following the tried formula and keep crowds! I may not have been in some years but, I still feel strongly about that festival. Good times indeed!
I think you'd feel right at home Willie!

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DataNick

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## allenhopkins

Just interesting to me that "bluegrass" would be a label that promoters use to _draw_ people to their events -- even when they're applying it to groups that aren't traditional 'grass at all.  Wasn't too long ago that I thought calling a festival "bluegrass" would keep more people away!  Some of my friends would complain that bluegrass bands played too fast, sang through their noses, and did a bunch of corny songs about the ol' homestead and religion -- omitting the popular topics of drugs, drinkin', and cheatin'.  (Not that there aren't plenty of bluegrass songs on these topics...)

There have always been bands that sorta "hung around the fringes" of bluegrass, including "trad" grass bands that went the plugged-in, country-isn route (Jim & Jesse, Osborne Brothers for a while); "newgrass" bands like Newgrass Revival, New Deal String Band, etc.; "acoustic jazz" outfits that played non-bluegrass material on bluegrass instruments; and even old-timey bands that would be added to bluegrass festivals because they had banjos and fiddles, even if they played them differently.

If a festival is marketed as "bluegrass," it better have some bands acceptable to a bluegrass audience.  One major appeal of bluegrass festivals is that so many in the audience are musicians themselves, really into the music, and capable of staging informal jams among the RV's, far into the night.  If they quit coming, because none of the stage acts appeal to them, the whole ambience disappears.

There are pop bands like Mumford & Sons and the Avett Brothers that clearly embody some bluegrass influences in their music, and someone who's listened to bluegrass for decades can hear them.  Wouldn't book them at a bluegrass festival -- assuming that the festival could afford them -- but I don't begrudge them invoking bluegrass music as one of their inspirations.

And -- there are a lot of fans whose tastes are a bit more eclectic, and who appreciate good music in many genres.  Promoters shouldn't try to hornswoggle audiences by listing "bluegrass" that they don't book; on the other hand, the inclusion of _some_ "fringe" bands at a festival billed as "bluegrass," doesn't necessarily drive me away.

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chuck3, 

DataNick

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## DataNick

Hey Allen!

Bluegrass is the new, _chique, millennial_, cool term that encapsulates just about any kind of acoustic music these days. Back to roots, nature, etc. is popular with millennials and with that, _bluegrass is now hip_...Millennial weddings booking bluegrass bands has become waaaay popular in SoCal, along with corporate events. It's like the music genre _sushi_ of today...YMMV

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allenhopkins, 

almeriastrings, 

Benjamin T

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## Timbofood

I get the variable line up and the perception that may draw wider crowds but, it's still kind of strange when the core fan base is abandoned by a promoter. Change of hands sees this in almost every business venture. "This was successful but, let's change it and see how much bigger we can get!?" Forget where we started and do something different.
Sorry, I guess I got miles from home. I'd better go make dinner!

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DataNick, 

doc holiday

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## 9lbShellhamer

It's interesting to note that the Americana label really is growing. With bands like the Avett Brothers, Jason Isbell, Sturgill Simpson, etc, the genre is growing and taking a big leap into the mainstream. 

I think most educated 20-something hipsters would be more likely to call Mumford and these acts Americana than call them bluegrass anymore. 

Alas, the fact is that a lot of folks will still use that word, BLUEGRASS for a generic catch all phrase, but hopefully as the Americana label continues to take hold, Bluegrass will once again be reserved for Bluegrass. 

I think your idea of saying you play Bill Monroe's music is a great idea, even though a lot of people might not understand that, it gets the ball rolling.

I was in College when the first Nickel Creek album came out...I don't know where that would fall, but the Americana category would have yielded the most airplay and publicity. 

If I was a progressive act like Punch or Greensky, I'd be all over the Americana label, and if I was a traditional act, I'd be grateful and thankful for satellite radio, and Bluegrass monthly periodicals, and the firm steadfast community surrounding and supporting "traditional" acts, even though acts that we in the know might call newgrass still sound very traditional to John Q Public.  :Grin: 

 :Popcorn:

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DataNick

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## almeriastrings

Incidentally, I know a number of people here who have told me at various times they love bluegrass music but, with one exception, when I played some classic Stanley and Monroe tracks to them, they hated it! The vocals especially...  :Laughing: 

They seemed to think 'Hayseed Dixie" were the real thing  :Disbelief:

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DataNick, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Timbofood

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## Bertram Henze

> ...when I played some classic Stanley and Monroe tracks to them, they hated it! The vocals especially... 
> 
> They seemed to think 'Hayseed Dixie" were the real thing


There's more awkward things you can put under a Stetson hat than that...  :Whistling:

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DataNick

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## Shelagh Moore

> There's more awkward things you can put under a Stetson hat than that...


Bertram, you should not have done that. It has distracted me from my work.  :Disbelief:

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DataNick

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## AlanN

> They seemed to think 'Hayseed Dixie" were the real thing


Well, some of them boys 'used to be'

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DataNick

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## Denny Gies

For me the traditional stuff plus newer bands like IIIrd Tyme Out, Sam Bush and more is still where I like to play and sing.  Nothing negative about whatever folks want to call any music but I'm still more of a traditionalist......Good discussion you started DataNick, thanks.

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DataNick

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## Franc Homier Lieu

> I think most educated 20-something hipsters would be more likely to call Mumford and these acts Americana than call them bluegrass anymore.


Yes. In fact, _true_ hipsters would recoil from the Americana genre altogether. _Real_ hipsters crave authenticity above all. They want to get it from the source, and the derivative is, to the hipster, exactly what is wrong with the world today. 

How many hipsters does it take to change a light bulb?
Oooh, its a really obscure number, you've probably never heard of it.

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DataNick, 

Mandobart

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## Timbofood

> Yes. In fact, _true_ hipsters would recoil from the Americana genre altogether. _Real_ hipsters crave authenticity above all. They want to get it from the source, and the derivative is, to the hipster, exactly what is wrong with the world today. 
> 
> How many hipsters does it take to change a light bulb?
> Oooh, its a really obscure number, you've probably never heard of it.


When will I learn to finish my coffee before reading this forum!?

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DataNick

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## RodCH

I'm American, grew up in Kentucky, have been a fan of Bluegrass, definitely a fan of Bill Monroe.  The other day I saw a YouTube for a bluegrass band doing "RocketMan" and I thought, hmm, that might be interesting.

It was not interesting.  In fact, it sounded exactly like every other bluegrass song I ever heard.  Bluegrass is boring because it all sounds the same.

Knew a banjo player in a Bluegrass band thirty years ago.  In a festival, they used to fight over which band would go first, because, since there are only a few Bluegrass songs and they all sound the same, by the time the second or third band reached the stage the crowd (of Kentucky bluegrass fans) would have become bored.

I'll take Bach over Bluegrass any day.

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## AlanN

> I'm American, grew up in Kentucky, have been a fan of Bluegrass, definitely a fan of Bill Monroe.  The other day I saw a YouTube for a bluegrass band doing "RocketMan" and I thought, hmm, that might be interesting.
> 
> It was not interesting.  In fact, it sounded exactly like every other bluegrass song I ever heard.  Bluegrass is boring because it all sounds the same.
> 
> Knew a banjo player in a Bluegrass band thirty years ago.  In a festival, they used to fight over which band would go first, because, since there are only a few Bluegrass songs and they all sound the same, by the time the second or third band reached the stage the crowd (of Kentucky bluegrass fans) would have become bored.
> 
> I'll take Bach over Bluegrass any day.


BB (that'd be Butch Baldassari) did it one better: He did 'Bach, Bluegrass *and* The Beatles"

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DataNick, 

Mark Gunter, 

Timbofood

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## Willie Poole

About being bored at a festival, they must not have been true "Bluegrass Fans"....At one festival that my band was on I was talking to Ralph Stanley and told him that we were going on just before him and I asked what songs was he going to play because I didn`t want to do any of his songs if his band was going to do them, he told to just play what ever I had on the set list and jokingly he said, "Just make us look bad"...

    BTW my band got two curtain calls and Ralph`s band got ZERO...That made my day for sure...

    Willie

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## JeffD

> It would be nice, if you could deliver exampels, where exactly which country folk or acoustic indie bands are called "Bluegrass".....
> 
> So who exactly calls which Americana musicians "Bluegrass"?


I can't give publically available examples right now, but most of my non musician friends call anything with a banjo in it bluegrass. Anything. It seems to be the sole criteria for many if not most of my non-musician friends. 

So the expansion to include Americana, even that without a banjo, is entirely plausible.

In fact many of my non-musical friends refer to O Brother as "that bluegrass movie."

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DataNick, 

Timbofood

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## morgon

> call anything with a banjo in it bluegrass


Here is an anecdote from Germany (a small country in Europe that you're probably not interested in):

Every year there is a "Bluegrass Jamboree" touring Germany, consisting of (usually) first two bands playing some sort of Americana and a final bluegrass act.

The impressario's spiel when announcing the final act usually goes along like this:

"So you've come to a bluegrass festival. Do you enjoy yourself? Oh Great. Well, sorry to break this to you but you have not heard any bluegrass yet."

So I'd say for Germany it is true that for the general public everything with a banjo is bluegrass and that is used to bill acts (but I give credit to that guy that tries to educate his audience).

But when recently Alison Brown (with Matt Flinner) played here she was billed as a bluegrass-artist (not without reason I suppose) but in the concert she did not only play bluegrass - so how are people to know when the artists don't stick to their labels and play whatever they want?

----------

DataNick

----------


## fentonjames

just look at the telluride bluegrass festival lineup from this year...

pokey lafarge is americana for sure and no way is bluegrass
punch bros aren't bluegrass
emmylou harris isn't bluegrass, tho she has done it
ryan adams?
leftover salmon
bela fleck and the flecktones are jazz, but of course bela is a telluride regular...

just shows that one of the country's premier bg fests is only half bg.

not sayin it's bad or good, just sayin.'

----------

DataNick, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

Timbofood

----------


## morgon

Interesting.

To my mind the term "Bluegrass" has really two meanings:

For people interested in the genre it has a specific meaning.

For the general public it means "hillbilly music with a banjo".

So in every discourse one needs to clarify which notion of bluegrass one is using.

----------


## morgon

> Zupfgeigenhansel


Thanks *a lot* for this.




> Wildecker Herzbuben


Well done. There is not enough garbage on the intenet yet.

----------


## Mandobart

The "Americana" genre was created in 1995 to attempt to categorize artists like John Prine (who I am a huge fan of) that are basically too country for rock and too rock for country.  Other terms were considered, like "alternative country" or just "roots rock."  The Americana label stuck but didn't gain much attention until the early 2000's.

Americana contains a very wide range from Robbie Fulks to Tony Furtado and is more descriptive of an overall philosophy (not played on commercial radio, not aligned with a major label, American roots influenced, use of mostly AE stringed instruments, etc.) than of a particular sound or style.  Because of this, billing a band or festival as Americana doesn't describe what you'll hear the way terms like heavy metal, blues, classical, swing, classic rock, etc. do.

You won't see the standard Americana singer-songwriter (John Prine, Joe Pug, Slaid Cleaves, Robbie Fulks) billed as "bluegrass."  Concert and festival promoters have decided to bill the current crop of excellent string bands out of Portland or Colorado as bluegrass.  These include bands like Fruition, Milk Drive, Giraffe Dodgers, Elephant Revival and more.  I love this type of music, but its not bluegrass.  However, it conveys a meaning to the growing number of young people attending these shows and festivals in my area.  Some come to Wintergrass to hear The Dead Winter Carpenters and find themselves sitting in on a Del McCoury show and loving it.

----------

DataNick, 

Denman John, 

Jess L.

----------


## Mark Gunter

Last weekend I attended a local event I'd seen on Facebook, "An Evening of Bluegrass" - the image of the band that went with this promotion featured a mando player I know and play with occasionally. I thought it was way cool to have a BG event to go to, and I showed up early wearing a Pearl, TX Bluegrass Jam t-shirt and ready to see the show. The first act was a solo act, a young fellow playing an acoustic guitar who played current "alternative" adult music along with some pretty good blues, notably SRV tunes, bare-fingered fingerstyle guitar. Guitar and vocals were impressive - but _An Evening of Bluegrass?_ Second act were the local musicians, _Salt Kreek_, and they did play mostly BG tunes, with guitar, mando, banjo, dobro and a resonator bass. I really missed hearing a fiddle and bass fiddle, but they played some BG - along with pop and country tunes with minimal BG-type arrangements, and those were awful IMO, and a long way from BG. Then, the final act (and definitely the best of the night) was a three-piece group called _The Urban Pioneers_. Those folk blew my socks off, I loved the show, bass fiddle, banjo and Texas-style fiddling, but it was nowhere even in the ballpark of BG. This group played mostly old-time tunes and originals in the general style and tenor of OT but with a strong, fast and energetic rhythm more reminiscent of punk rock than either OT or BG. This was definitely what I would call Americana, and very well done I might add. The leader of that group made a nod to the fact that the promoters had misrepresented the event, when he introduced _Nine Pound Hammer_ as the only tune in their set that was a BG song - but the way they played it could not be considered BG IMO.

So, not only staunch BG fans, but BG dabblers like me who have a tough enough time categorizing music, can readily see that much of what is promoted as BG has little or nothing to do with BG. I posted a topic about that third group last week, and didn't really know where to put it. I put it in _Old Time, Roots . . ._ but in reality I don't know what category to put those folk in, I know they're good, and are "Americana."

DataNick's OP is spot on about the climate.  :Mandosmiley:

----------

DataNick, 

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

You know, these guys might be able to offer some advice on dealing with the problem. They have a lot more experience with this sort of abuse of correct terminology:

http://www.academie-francaise.fr/la-...ais-aujourdhui

Of course, they would call it _musique pâturin_.

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## Justus True Waldron

> Thanks for the example, Nick. I searched Youtube for Della Mae and found "Mabeline" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ptAW1LAfCU
> The one BG element lacking is a 5-string banjo, but others such as fiddle, upright bass, mando chop, the one microphone thing or a capoed dreadnought played out of the G-position are certainly present.
> So I guess, somebody with only cursory knowledge might classify them as BG as well as classifying the Gypsy Kings "Flamenco".


While it's true the music Della Mae plays is largely not bluegrass and so they are not marketed as such, I can tell you that the musicians themselves are all quite familiar with and able to play "real" bluegrass. Jenny Lynn (mando) grew up in a real bluegrass household, with her dad playing banjo and taking the music very seriously. I've seen pictures of her at a very young age playing with the man himself (monroe). In fact, I'd say she's one of the best bluegrass mandolin players I've heard... Courtney played in a bluegrass family band growing up, and I believe Kimber comes from a bluegrass playing family as well. Does that make the music they play as a band bluegrass? Not really, but it does explain the bluegrass sensibilities they have... In the original form of the band I believe they had a 5 string banjo and played "real" bluegrass as well.

As a Bluegrass radio DJ "what is bluegrass" is a question I hear all too often, and having gotten tired of trying to answer it I've just made this one personal rule for my show: only play music from bands that at least know how to play real bluegrass. So far I'm happy with the playlists that gives me. Almost every BG band these days has SOME material that I wouldn't really call bluegrass, and I'm all cool with it, because their next track could be a rousing rendition of Handsome Molly or the like. A lot of what Bela Fleck does, including stuff with his wife Abigail, isn't bluegrass. But I know for a fact he knows what it is and can play it when needed! Then you have some of these folk/americana type acts. Some of them I'll play on my show because I can hear how they started from a bluegrass mindset and worked out in other directions. Others sound like they developed their sound from a totally different mindset and then covered a couple bluegrass songs.... those ones I'll usually avoid playing on my show. But again, that's my personally curated show. Some of that music is nice, I just don't think it fits what I'm going for. 

And to answer the OP, I have definitely seen "bluegrass" being used as a catch all term to draw people in. The western mass festival FreshGrass comes to mind. Some great bands, cheap prices, an hour away from me and I go every year.... seems to be quite popular too, lots of young people (myself included). That said, I think maybe only 1/3rd of the music there is actually what I'd consider bluegrass. That said, if they called it "FreshAmericana" or just the "Mass Moca America Fest" would it draw such big crowds? I don't think so... even to me that sounds like a lot of older folks listening to Kingston Trio cover bands!

----------

DataNick, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

sgarrity

----------


## Fretbear

> The "Americana" genre was created in 1995 to attempt to categorize artists like John Prine (who I am a huge fan of) that are basically too country for rock and too rock for country.


That's well said.

This is an interesting topic. Bluegrass music is to me, something deeply spiritual in nature, and yet I no longer attempt to play it or even listen to it very much anymore. Why this is has a lot to do with what has happened to the world around the music as it grew up. First of all, in the world today, Bluegrass music is an anachronism. That is a fact. Watch every one of the "Flatt and Scruggs Martha White Grand Ol' Opry shows on Youtube and this will become clear. Uncle Josh giving a shout-out to the "Shut-Ins" and "Folks that wrote in". T Tommy selling flour and meal and cooking tips to the housewives. The people that played (and invented) this music and the people that listened to (and loved it) were country people, rural people. Just turn on any country music radio station for a reality check into what that is all about today. It's not just about Bluegrass either. Every child (and country music fan and mental midget) says: "Rock On!"; yet when Scotty Moore leaves the earth, it is no longer even newsworthy.

----------

DataNick, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Timbofood

----------


## Willie Poole

There are a few bluegrass pickers that seem to get burned out on playing the same songs over and over and they try to use some chords that are relative to what chord should be played and it kills the bluegrass sound in my opinion, Skaggs and Cliff Waldron did this back in the 70`s and were playing some songs from the "B" sides of the original recordings of The Stanley`s and Flatt and Scruggs, Ricky even did it with some Monroe songs....My guitar of the past 12 years just this year said he had to quick and wanted to go onto some different kind of music because he has gotten tired of the traditional bluegrass songs...It seems now days that when I hear a new band doing a new song that it has to have a few minor chords thrown in, not that minor chords are bad but most of the time they are not needed, they are just replacing a C major chord  with an A minor etc to change the sound, I will admit that sometimes it does catch some people`s attention but to me a lot of the new stuff is overkill with the minor chords....I do play some songs that we put minor chords in but that is the way I heard them from the get go and I didn`t change a thing just to gain attention or because I was burnt out on the song...

     A few of the "traditional" bluegrass bands also have changed their style because it is what seems to appeal to the younger crowds and those pickers have to make a living so playing what will draw the fans is the way to do, I do not find fault with them for doing that, what irks me is that they are booked on a "Bluegrass festival" and they don`t play bluegrass songs on there, as someone stated above it draws the bluegrass fans but believe me those festivals are slowly going away because the true bluegrass fans are finding out what is going on....Right here in the DC, Md. and northern Va. area bluegrass used to be played every where but now it is hard to get a gig any more....Most of the festivals are not drawing crowds like they did in past years....

        I don`t have any answers because things change and progress and sometimes they loose popularity so I`ll just keep doing what I do and support what I know to be bluegrass and let others do what they want to do...I have been offered a free ticket to an up and coming festival and I turned it down because last year I went and didn`t see but one band that played bluegrass and the place was almost deserted with campers and no parking lot picking at all at night...If thats what the promoters want the so be it....

    Sorry to be so long winded....

     Willie

----------

DataNick

----------


## Timbofood

Well said Fretbear, 
I must admit I don't listen to BG as much as I once did. Yes, it has surely become anachronistic that's just what time does. Everything changes, one of my favorite songwriters made an excellent point about that. He said "I was away and, when I came back, I thought everyone I left had changed. Then, I realized it wasn't just them who had changed, it was me too. That's just the way reality is, we influence each other."
Then he sang:
"Old Father Time"
I miss Jim Ringer!

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## Mandoplumb

I don't see why the way music was presented on a TV show 50 years ago should make me want to quit listening to it. Anything on any TV from 50 years back is going to be slightly dated. That's some more of the thinking that old means obsolete and useless. I'm sorry I just don't agree. Maybe because I'm getting old.

----------

Mark Wilson

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## Timbofood

I think the point which was being made by Fretbear and Willie was not so much that the newer "take" has moved on from its roots in some ways and it's just, "not the same". The guys in my band who write, have different styles in writing, one is very traditional formatted, old school style that Bill or Ralph would find right at home with. The other is more "Story Song " Bill Monroe, vintage Merle Haggard, Lefty Frizzell with a John Prine back. All of which we play in our own traditional style.  The music is a growing thing to be sure but, a little care will keep the roots strong.

----------

FLATROCK HILL

----------


## Jeff Mando

> I'm American, grew up in Kentucky, have been a fan of Bluegrass, definitely a fan of Bill Monroe.  The other day I saw a YouTube for a bluegrass band doing "RocketMan" and I thought, hmm, that might be interesting.
> 
> It was not interesting.  In fact, it sounded exactly like every other bluegrass song I ever heard.  Bluegrass is boring because it all sounds the same.
> 
> Knew a banjo player in a Bluegrass band thirty years ago.  In a festival, they used to fight over which band would go first, because, since there are only a few Bluegrass songs and they all sound the same, by the time the second or third band reached the stage the crowd (of Kentucky bluegrass fans) would have become bored.
> 
> I'll take Bach over Bluegrass any day.


You had me up until Bach.......... :Crying:

----------


## jaycat

> . . .  Promoters shouldn't try to hornswoggle audiences by listing "bluegrass" that they don't book . . .


Just by way of comparison, the last Newport Jazz Festival I attended featured Al Green and B.B. King. Was the festival trying to 'hornswoggle' folks? I'd say not hardly, those were the big draws. You could still wander over to the small tent to see the Ron Carter trio.

I'm not a BG festival expert but this seems to be the trend nowadays, it's hard to keep a festival 'pure' and draw a big enough crowd to make it work.

----------

allenhopkins, 

DavidKOS

----------


## onassis

Exactly.  Unless it's an old, established hardcore BG festival.  Most festivals are just looking for the buzzword that will draw the most interest.  These days, for acoustic music, that word is "bluegrass".  Very funny, considering that none of these borderline acts would ever market _themselves_ as bluegrass.

----------

DataNick, 

Timbofood

----------


## mandopops

To jaycats point, as a longtime Blues/Jazz fan, I don't see much of a barrier between the styles, I don't think B.B. would be out of place at a Jazz fest. In fact, I believe he belongs there. As for Al Green, if he was doing a Gospel set, I think it would be a natural fit. Mahalia was at Newport.
Although I am not a Bluegrass aficionado, I understand why those who are, would want & expect to be at least a couple hardcore trad Bluegrass bands at a "Bluegrass" Fest. Although it seldom happens, I want & expect at least one Trad New Orleans (Dixieland) style band at every "Jazz" fest. As well as many other (Swing,Bebop,Big Band,Gypsy, Blues,Free etc) styles represented.
I guess it is sometimes about the draw & money, but also a fest can present a spectrum of the Music for the attendees. A sampler. I like that. I know the danger is it can go too far afield.
Joe B

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## crisscross

> I don't see much of a barrier between the styles, I don't think B.B. would be out of place at a Jazz fest.


"Jazz" to me is a more generic term than "Bluegrass". 
New Orleans Jazz for example is one style under the larger umbrella term "Jazz".
Bluegrass is one style under the larger umbrella term "Folk music".

I can understand that it irks BG fans, when they visit a BG festival and have to listen to a folk-rock act.
I can also understand that fans of TradJazz get annoyed, when, at a Dixieland festival, they have to put up with a Bebop act.

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## Nick Gellie

DataNick,  times are a changing as the new Generation Y and millenials are coming to the fore in bluegrass and in general folk music.  We have a local bluegrass and old time festival in my home town in NE Victoria which along with other like festivals is attracting some great new young talent equivalent to the Chris Thiles and Sarah Jarosch.  We even had an Indian bluegrass band made up of mainly Australians - first class act.

Because my taste in music has been and is eclectic I welcome the hipsters joining bluegrass festivals.  They are the future of folk and bluegrass music.  The have great technical and improvisational skills and just about play anything that is being played in a jam session.  

My 33-year old son has started playing the fiddle again after a 15-year break.  I hope to jam with him one day playing some old bluegrass standards.  I enjoy the younger generations moving in on well established bluegrass turf.  It is fun and exciting to see what bands might come about.

We are hosting ten musicians at our house in Stanley for the Kelly Country Pick this August.  I look forward to meeting some of the best bluegrass and old-time musicians both young and old.  It should be a good show.

----------

DataNick, 

Denman John, 

Mark Gunter, 

tangleweeds

----------


## cbakewell

This whole thread reminds me of the heated debates I have heard in the UK over what exactly qualifies as 'folk music'.

I usually find myself agreeing with three or four contradictory arguments, and probably would do here if I had a dog in the fight.

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## AlanN

> Most of the festivals are not drawing crowds like they did in past years....


Sad truth. In just the last few years, the Bass Mtn/Lil John's Festival of 38 years is a shell of what it was. Was always twice/year. He knocked out the Labor Day one, likely due to losing $$. Way fewer national acts, for likely the same reason. And hence, fewer attendees, fewer campers, less jamming. Very noticeable.

----------

DataNick, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## Jim Hudson

Allen always seems to neatly organize the thoughts of the thread so well! Great discussion. 
I live in Austin and have been attending the same festival for many many years, Old Settlers Music Festival. It was initially called O.S. Bluegrass F. and the organizers were true bluegrass fans and booked pretty straight up bluegrass acts. The festival has changed hands a couple of times and the name was changed years ago to attract a more diverse audience (as Allen suggested) and broaden the field of acts they hired. I've noticed and been a little surprised that the young festival "hipsters" love Del McCoury as much as they love ... say Old Crow Medicine Show. Good music transcends ... yada yada. Fortunately the RV/camping/jamming scene at this festival has remained very strong. On a given night you will see lots of young kids wailing away at 3 am around a campfire playing a great mix of bluegrass, folk, Americana, jazz, etc. I agree with Nick that the bluegrass label is far more widely appealing these days than even a few years ago and I think, far the most part, this is a good thing even if such labelling is being applied to music that bluegrass traditionalists would squawk about. As a player, I want the "parking lot picking" culture to be active and diverse.

----------

allenhopkins, 

DataNick, 

Mark Gunter, 

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## doc holiday

"I believe Kimber comes from a bluegrass playing family as well" (J.T. Waldron, post #46) Kimber Ludiker is a Grand National Old Time Fiddle Champion and a 5th generation fiddler. There are numerous fiddlers that didn't come from a Bluegrass background. You can count the great Kenny Baker in that group. There is a huge fiddle culture all across the USA and Canada that turns out many tremendous talents, & we can count Sam Bush in that group too.

----------

DataNick, 

Denman John, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## Willie Poole

As I have said on here many time, You can play what you like and enjoy but just don`t call this new stuff 
"Bluegrass", If you can`t tell the difference between bluegrass and what is being played today you must be less than 35 years old...The money hungry promoters killed Country music and they will do the same with bluegrass...

    Compare what you are hearing today with those videos that DataNick has posted on one of the other threads and you will see a huge difference...

   Thats my story and I`m sticking to it....

    Willie

----------

DataNick, 

DavidKOS, 

Mandoplumb, 

Timbofood

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

From Willie - _"The money hungry promoters killed Country music and they will do the same with bluegrass..."_. Willie - I understand the gist of what you're saying,but while the Bluegrass _''Festivals''_ might get watered down with other styles of 'acoustic music',it won't kill Bluegrass as a music form off.

   It's maybe hard to swallow for us Bluegrass die-hards,but as i said in an earlier post in this thread,for many folk,Bluegrass simply isn't what they like !.It's as simple as that. Attendees at Bluegrass festivals might vary area to area in the US. In more rural areas where 'roots' music is _maybe_ more popular anyway,a Bluegrass festival might find the audience to be (say) 70% true Bluegrass lovers,with 30% made up of lovers of other music or folks simply there to 'find out' what's going on. In other areas it might be the other way around. 'Whatever' - the folks who organise these festivals have to make money to pay all the bands, & if that means having 'popular' non-Bluegrass bands such as ''The Old Crow Medicine Show'' (for example), to attract larger crowds, that's how it's got to be. Personally,as long as the music is good,i think that even as a 100% 'Bluegrasser',i find it's nice to hear something different for a change. Non-stop,all day, solid Bluegrass would tire even my ears out,so some nice,relaxed Old Timey frailing banjo & fiddle tunes would go down very well,either that or another laid back style of music - as long as it's an ''associated''
music. I think that 'well judged' diversity can be a big plus point in attracting folk to festivals,& if it brings the $ in to keep the festival going,then that's how it's got to be,as long as the 'core' music,Bluegrass,is still well represented.

   I know that at our UK Bluegrass festivals,not all bands / artists are 'Bluegrass' musicians. Nevertheless,the festivals are still going strong,& as long as the 'core' music is Bluegrass,they'll very likely continue to do so,
                                                                                                                                            Ivan :Wink:

----------

DataNick

----------


## crisscross

Just one stupid question: is this Bluegrass? 
Or just Americana?

----------


## Beanzy

It's very Country. Quite reminiscent of a lot of Nancy Griffith tunes & arrangements

----------

crisscross

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## Mandoplumb

> Just one stupid question: is this Bluegrass? 
> Or just Americana?


In my opinion that is acoustic country and very good music. Country today is just commercial music and just so much trash as I see it. This video would be closer to bluegrass than today's country be cause there is good musicians on acoustic instruments playing clean breaks and backup and good tight, close, harmony that is featured as harmony instead of a " star" with backup singers so far back you can barely hear them. I don't think it pushes the beat like real bluegrass is why I called it real country but I think you can tell I liked it and if it was in the line up at a BG festival that I attended I would not be upset.

----------

crisscross

----------


## Mandobart

> .... Personally,as long as the music is good,i think that even as a 100% 'Bluegrasser', I find it's nice to hear something different for a change. Non-stop,all day, solid Bluegrass would tire even my ears out,so some nice,relaxed Old Timey frailing banjo & fiddle tunes would go down very well,either that or another laid back style of music - as long as it's an ''associated'' music. I think that 'well judged' diversity can be a big plus point in attracting folk to festivals,& if it brings the $ in to keep the festival going,then that's how it's got to be, as long as the 'core' music, Bluegrass, is still well represented.


Totally agree.  I like many musical genres, but find I reach saturation in about two hours if the focus of a show or festival is too narrow.  Blues festivals, for example, that feature only acts doing electric 12 bar tunes in E are monotonous for me.  Throw in some zydeco, acoustic slide, etc. and it adds flavor and variety.  Same thing for Gypsy Jazz - you need to add swing tunes and standards.  Hawaiian Slack key, which I dearly love, can all start to sound the same as well.  So it goes with bluegrass.  If everybody at a festival did just the great old classics in the Monroe style very few attendees could enjoy an entire weekend.  Throw in some Cajun tunes, Old Time, newgrass, altgrass, etc.

----------

crisscross, 

Franc Homier Lieu, 

Ivan Kelsall

----------


## Mark Miller

For an illustration of what the OP is talking about, take a look at the lineup for the TV show "Bluegrass Underground". I think it's put out by Tennessee PBS. Few of the acts are bluegrass. Many are great anyway!

I don't really care what people call it. I love real old-school stuff the best but to my mind that includes a lot of pre-bluegrass stuff as well.

----------

DataNick

----------


## Mark Miller

By the way, for a great example of a band that still plays and sings it the old way, check out Dry Branch Fire Squad. Recently saw them in Chicago and they are real traditionalists, and fantastic both instrumentally and with the harmony singing.

----------

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## doc holiday

Mandobart, Philosophically, I agree with you....but practically, if traditional Bluegrass is your thing and you drive for 5-15 hrs each way to a festival and pay $120 for a weekend pass  to hear a genre-neutral lineup with the odd 'real' BG group...then it's not a Bluegrass festival. And, if you don't hear live bluegrass music at a Bluegrass festival....then, where do you hear it?  You won't hear it at a folk or blues festival.
Some events, (like Wintergrass for example) work. The caliber of music is so high, that, I'd fly miles to see Tim O'Brien, or Joe Walsh, Grant Gordy, & Darol Anger. (Not to mention Julian Lage.) Other events however, lose the faithful BG fans base in trying to attract a bigger gate....

----------

DataNick, 

Timbofood

----------


## DataNick

I just picked up a DVD episode of Pete Seeger's Rainbow Quest that has 2 programs; one of the Stanley Brothers with Cousin Emmy, and the other, a Doc Watson Trio. After viewing these gems it became more apparent to me that _from my perspective_, by and large this art form that we call bluegrass, is a thing of the past.

Quincy Jones was asked a question recently(within the last 2 years) about the state of the music industry to which he replied: "Honey, we have no music industry. Theres 90% piracy everywhere in the world. They take everything." Quincy Jones Fortune magazine

May I say that as far as bluegrass as I understand it to be, based on the following videos below, that one could appropriately say, _"we have no bluegrass industry"_...just _acoustic Americana-Indie-Progressive-Country hybrid_ music played with traditional bluegrass instrumentation!

Again, is that bad? Of course not! But from where I sit, I wouldn't call it bluegrass either, nor try to market it as such!

----------

Mark Gunter, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

Timbofood

----------


## Mandoplumb

Bluegrass exists but it doesn't have a "industry". Any time you develop a music industry your music changes to the extent that it no longer is the same but now it is making some folks some money. Just look at "country" and what it has become. Few of the major"stars" of BG today really play BG but it is still being played in jam sessions in the parking lot and at local get togethers at least in my neck of the woods. I'm not trying to define BG just using Datanicks Standley brothers and Flatt and Scruggs

----------

DataNick

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

From crisscross - _" Just one stupid question: is this Bluegrass,or just Americana ?"_.Well,despite the song being very 'modern' in sound,the band line up & the way the instruments are played,fulfills all the criteria for it being _''within the genre of Bluegrass music''._ However,Alison Krauss & her band stopped calling themselves a Bluegrass band quite a while back. To my way of thinking,that allowed them to play any sort of acoustic music which will bring in the $'s. IMO,if you're trying to earn a living by playing & not simply boosting your 'other income' by playing,then it's not a bad thing to do & if we don't like it,we all know what to do.
    It's one thing to play music simply for the enjoyment of it & for a few bits of extra cash,but to do it for 100% of your income is quite a different thing. You have to play what folks want to hear or else get yourself a ''real job''.
    Our individual opinions are exactly that & nothing more. Regardless of whether we like something or not,we're wrong if we expect bands to conform to our expectations - they won't, & historically,they never did. During the ''Rock'n Roll era'',some Bluegrass bands,most notably The Osborne Bros.& Jim & Jesse,experimented with adding percussion to the bands & singing R & R 'sound alike songs to attract followers. I'm pretty sure that went down like a lead balloon with lots of Blugrass fans,but the music survived.
    As with many things,in music,if something isn't working right (attendance drop off at festivals),the organisers will try something to get it back on track. It's either that,or shut the festival down completely & that way everybody looses - is that really what we want ?. Personally i don't care one bit what it was like 'in the old days' (any more),i'm ''not living in the old days'',i don't live in the past. At age 71,the past is long gone,& for the most part i'm thankful. Bluegrass as a music has changed, & will continue to do so regardless of our personal wishes. I'm thankful for the terrific bands we have going at present,bands such as Blue Highway / Special Consensus / Balsam Range & others,& the 'new sounding' bands such as 'Greensky Bluegrass' & 'The Infamous Stringdusters' (come back Jesse Cobb !!!). These bands & many others keep my Bluegrass whistle wet & long may they do so.

   'Change' is part of our lives,even when it comes down to music of all genres. We can either accept it & 'join in' - that doesn't mean that you have to _force yourself_ to like what you don't like,i personally don't like The Punch Bros. stuff,so i listen to the other bands - or, we can sideline ourselves & moan & groan over it, & that could make for a really miserable existence, & i'll opt out of _that_ thank you very much,
                                                    Ivan :Wink:

----------

DataNick, 

tangleweeds, 

Timbofood

----------


## DataNick

The thread seems to be de-evolving into the I do or don't like the old, traditional bluegrass schtick....and that wasn't the intent or point of the OP. The point was that the label bluegrass has become so inclusive that it basically doesn't mean anything anymore, like Americana; you could get just about anything that's acoustic music with that moniker; and so it appears just the same now with Bluegrass.

I believe I know what Ivan means, but may I respectfully point out that the entire Classical music industry is living in the past, quite happily and successfully I might add :Wink: ...YMMV...

----------

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## DataNick

Some young friends of mine, The Blue Js (ages 12-19) livin & lovin the "Old Days" ...those silly youngsters; don't they know that nobody will come see them at the festivals they're playing and getting booked at  :Wink: ....and they definitely call what they do _Bluegrass_

----------

Denman John, 

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

From Nick - _"...bluegrass has become so inclusive that it basically doesn't mean anything anymore, .."_. I suppose that it really depends on which age group you're in. I know _exactly_ what Bluegrass music means(to me),& i'd bed a boat load of cash that so do many others of my generation & even younger. That the genre has taken on 'another aspect' with the new bands coming along,doesn't rob Bluegrass 'proper' of any meaning at all (IMHO).
   I suppose that you could equate it with Classical Music,which now not only encompasses the great composers such as Beethoven,Mozart etc, but also includes 'modern' composers such as Milton Babbit,Benjamin Britten,Arnold Schoenberg,Aaron Copland etc. all their music is ''Classical'',although personally,i don't like much of it.

    As to the point aired in the Punch Brothers thread re. a _'blurring of genres'_- is there ?. For me,there's no blurring of genres at all. I still know what a 'trad.' Bluegrass band line-up sounds like & so does every other trad. Bluegrass fan. Yes,there is what i'd term ''associated'' music ie. music played using the trad.Bluegrass instruments,but used in modern style songs & tunes,but i'd never get even those mixed up with trad. Bluegrass music.

    Ultimately,we like what we like & bands of 'whichever' genre will also _play_ what they like - it's always been like that & always will be. 'Not to change' is to stagnate & eventually fade away,
                                                                                             Ivan :Wink:

----------

DataNick

----------


## Timbofood

Without influence of outside forces, the "classic" vein of BG will surely wither, with the influence, it will change. Sorry, that's pretty simple thought. I have said it many times here and other places, "We must know where we came from to know where we are going." Bands like "Special Concensus", Doyle Lawson, and plenty of others understand this and THEY keep some of that "old school" style going. But, the bus I play with, strive to maintain the sound even if we do covers of more current material, my banjo player writes with a slant toward the Stanley brothers style and a tune he wrote a few years ago could have been done by any of the first generation musicians. Style is what we make it, genre is how people take it away.

----------

DataNick

----------


## DataNick

Valid points Ivan & Tim, but again the discussion is morphing into the will it survive, it needs new talent, preferences for styles, etc. etc.

The point of the OP is that in a broad sense in society today, the label basically means acoustic music, as did Americana a few years back, that's all...nothing more, nothing less...carry on gents!

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Jeff Mando

On a somewhat unrelated note, my friend plays in one of those two-piece "alternative" type bands in the manner of The White Stripes and the Black Keys.  They played a show in England that was advertised as a "Blues Festival" -- while most people were on the same page, some of the older guys actually asked for their money back, thinking it was going to be like Robert Johnson or Muddy Waters, or at least Eric Clapton and John Mayall......

Might have something to do with "genre mixing" as discussed in other threads concerning people like the Punch Brothers.  Which does bring up the question of "what do we call this stuff?"  And who fits in what "category"......

----------

DataNick

----------


## jaycat

> . . . some of the older guys actually asked for their money back, thinking it was going to be like Robert Johnson or Muddy Waters, or at least Eric Clapton and John Mayall......


Then they need to get a time machine.

----------


## Timbofood

You make a wise point about "morphing" of the thread Nick. Time for me to bow out on this one, you all know my tastes and philosophy.
Every day historical figures are passing and with each one some of the roots die too, always some new blossoms on the tree whether we tend them or prune them, it will continue, changing all the time.

----------

DataNick

----------


## Beanzy

I always like to get an analogy when things aren't clear. 
As music is about taste food often works. 

For me this is a bit like buying a packet of sweets in a flavour you like. 
Every now and then there'll be one or two freaky shaped ones that don't come out how you were expecting and that can be interesting, worth a comment. Sometimes they may try to change the recipe to improve it, but that's risking pushing the existing customers loyalty and preferences to the limit.
 If you find loads of freaky shaped sweets in the packet, you'd begin to wonder about quality control. 
If you also found sweets in different flavours, weird colours and shapes, then you'll probably think the manufacturer really doesn't know what they're at, or just doesn't care as long as they get your money. 
If that goes beyond one or two experiences, or they pay no heed when you tell them, then you'd probably give up on them.

----------

DataNick

----------


## jaycat

> You make a wise point about "morphing" of the thread Nick. Time for me to bow out on this one, you all know my tastes and philosophy.
> Every day historical figures are passing and with each one some of the roots die too, always some new blossoms on the tree whether we tend them or prune them, it will continue, changing all the time.


Well put, Timmy.

"Now, sir. We'll talk, if you like. I'll tell you right out, I am a man who likes talking to a man who likes to talk."

----------

DataNick, 

Ivan Kelsall

----------


## Timbofood

"Now, tell me about the black bird."

----------

DataNick

----------


## Fretbear

This is also much more about the music business than it is about music

Sam Bush said in a recent interview that he is “Paid to Travel”, and that the few hours he gets to play every night with his hot band are his reward.

Imagine how much sleep Sam must lose because some fool says: “He has drums and Bill didn’t do it that way….”

About 30 years ago, the world and everything in it was very clear to me.
If the Devil himself had have jumped up and offered me what I wanted in exchange for my soul, I would have asked him what took you so long?
I wanted only one thing, and that was to be able to play the mandolin and sing like Tim O’Brien (insert your own favorite musician)

I still love Tim and would still listen to anything he ever does now and in the future, but I have to admit now that I’m glad the devil never came calling.

Why?
Because I would live in a world, where “getting paid to travel” would be my “real” job, and all my music (all my art, old and new) would be stolen and distributed for free (robbing me entirely of the income from what I had produced) almost before I had a chance to listen to my final mix of it!!

For professional musicians, in light of these realities, what people call certain kinds of music, and what festivals are called or what they really are, pales in comparison.

----------

cbakewell, 

DataNick, 

DavidKOS, 

Mark Gunter, 

Nick Gellie, 

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## DataNick

Good posts guys, and Tim, stay with us Brotha; always appreciate your view points.

I'm just trying to "steer the ship" so to speak on the thread that I started...good stuff guys!

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Timbofood

Nick, not leaving just don't think I have anything more to say one this within the real subject at hand. Catch all phrases for any form (genre) of music are a very touchy subject. I think I've said about all I can constructively say without sounding like a cranky narrow scoped incapable of learning old git. No digs at anyone pointing no fingers whatsoever but, I am who I am socially and musically. To quote the little girl in "Paper Moon":
" You go to your church and, I'll go to mine."
Watching until I have something to add of any value

----------

DataNick, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

From Timothy - _"....without sounding like a cranky narrow scoped incapable of learning old git."_. Why should _you_ be any different ???.
   The bottom line for me is that we all like what we like - so get it while it's goin' or it's gone !,
                                                                                                                               Ivan :Wink:

----------

Mark Gunter, 

Timbofood

----------


## chris.burcher

Not sure if this will be additive or jacking but reading this got me thinking and I want to try to complete an idea.

I think the labels have been bastardized by the industry and is probably pretty typical of any marketing program.  The music industry reminds me of the beer industry.  A brewer makes beer or a musician makes music.  Then, to 'sell' those products they go through a wholesaler, the beer distributor or agent/promotor.  Then, those middle men sell the product to a retailer, restaurant/bar or venue.  Not entirely the case but I'd argue the most common pathway between the product and the consumer.  Yes some breweries and musicans 'sell directly' but that's a different story.  

Because the middlemen are not directly attached to the product, a single band or beer brand is but one of a myriad of products a wholesaler will be selling, they don't feel the same way about the product, aren't as connected to it, and view it differently than the artist/brewer.  So they sell it however they think will generate the most sales.  I would guess these wholesalers look to the consumer markets to determine how to sell them.  they will use the terminology and jargon common to the buyers.  

Before "Oh, Brother", bluegrass had become kind of a bad word to agents and promoters (guessing here, I'm not sure, but it seems to partially explain the difficulties associated with being a working bluegrass musician pre "Oh, Brother") so many bands tried to 'unbluegrass' themselves, adding drums, playing popular covers, whatever, to attract themselves to the customer and make them more marketable by agents/promoters.  Similarly, I'd imagine promoters were doing the same.  After "Oh, Brother" I think the term flip-flopped to become a selling point so many people _attached_ themselves to bluegrass and started the whole broadening-of the genre thing.  I'd guess this was largely done by promoters, again, but it doesn't matter.  Suddenly, as many have said, everything was bluegrass because bluegrass was selling.  Initially, at least, the newbie listeners heard the term bluegrass associated with a lot of music and so the strength of those associations grew.  Kind of like how people thought Blue Moon was a real craft beer because the marketing scheme promoted that belief.  

I don't know if that adds any value, but I am interested in how these labels grow and change and it's amazing how complex simple things like names can become.  

I was just thinking this morning how Noam Pikelny's take on Kenny Baker Plays Bill Monroe is a contemporary homage to what I consider 'real bluegrass' in the same way I consider the Bluegrass Album Bands stuff to be 'real'.  In the 90s we had a string of those type of albums, not so much lately but at least it still happens.  I can't think of many current albums/cds/digital files that have been recorded that really pay tribute to the old stuff without being a compilation or tribute album, per se.  What I need is another Johnson Mountain Boys.

----------

DataNick, 

DavidKOS, 

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## Bertram Henze

> From Timothy - _"....without sounding like a cranky narrow scoped incapable of learning old git."_. Why should _you_ be any different ???.
>    The bottom line for me is that we all like what we like - so get it while it's goin' or it's gone !,
>                                                                                                                                Ivan

----------

DataNick, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Mark Gunter, 

Timbofood

----------


## DataNick

chris.burcher: EXCELLENT POST!

This is exactly the kind of discussion/thoughts that I was hoping the thread would elicit.

Keep it coming guys....at this point I'm reading & am getting educated!

----------

chris.burcher

----------


## Jeff Mando

Good point about, "Oh, Brother".  I think it may have given some "old" careers a boost and helped some new talent get discovered.  And to a bigger audience than before.  In an old interview, Dolly Parton mentioned that she had a great career going for years and made a nice living, but it wasn't until Whitney Houston recorded her song for "The Bodyguard" movie that she saw what "real money" was............bigger audience.

And you're right, those who pull the strings and push the buttons from some remote board room are probably thinking how to market the next big thing and like any other product -- give it a name:  Bluegrass!  Sounds happy, natural, organic, fresh, and (maybe) just a little bit underground!  (I say that because back when most people my age were discovering David Bowie, a small group of friends and myself were becoming interested in Bluegrass, and it was certainly not the norm.)

Speaking of labels, in the 60's with all the great music going on, my late father would refer to classical music as "they're playing some of that long-haired stuff!" -- meaning Bach, Beethoven, and the powdered wigs they wore.......confusing to a kid who liked the Beatles and Stones.   :Confused:

----------

DataNick

----------


## Willie Poole

One thing that I`d like to point out on here is that years ago to get a good fill of bluegrass a person would go to a festival or local pub to listen but now with computers there are many. many videos available that they can just sit at their desk and listen to what ever band they so desire, thats not a bad thing but it sure does cut down on the number of festivals and bluegrass pubs that are now active compared to what there was say 10-15 years ago......

      Willie

----------

DataNick, 

Timbofood

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

In an e-mail to several Cafe e-mail buddies,i put the question - ''How much would it cost to hold a  3 day, 100%  Bluegrass festival with several top bands playing''. Then you have to think of how much the organisers have to pay out for marquees, elec.generators, port-a-loos etc. before they get a single cent. I have 2 friends over here who each organise an annual Bluegrass featival. John Les - 'The North Wales Bluegrass Festival', & Tom Degney - 'The Coastline Bluegrass Event' ( look 'em up on line - The North Wales festival was the 28th this year). I know just how much cash these guys have to pay up front for the ''facilities' & it's £k's. Now these are UK festivals,i can't imagine the boat load of cash required to organise something like the IBMA festival,& even in the US,there's no _absolute guarantee_ that the numbers of fans will turn up to cover the cost.
     It's for that reason that i think that maybe booking non-Bluegrass and / or lesser known bands helps to keep initial costs down.
Realistically,you really need to ask the organisers of any of the larger Bluegrass events to gain a real perspective on the thinking,
                                                                                                                                                                   Ivan :Wink:

----------

DataNick, 

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## Timbofood

Boy, that's a real fact! Expenses to set a festival are murderously expensive not even taking into consideration the hours riding phones. I have a friend of long standing who has "taken care of" the festival over in Charlotte and they have to start planning for the upcoming year months before it's a year away! If they needed to augment acts to draw more crowds I would not be surprised. This is a pretty well established festival and I seriously doubt that would ever be required but, in this day and age, anything is possible. Like a guy a I used to work for used to say "Hey, go ahead and buy that guitar, we are not a museum."  You have to sell tickets to keep a show going first and foremost.
As for the "Oh, brother" phenomenon, think back, it's happened before, it will happen again. "Oh brother" is not new, it brought a few people an introduction to the music, in Very broad strokes, the same thing happened with Flatt and Scruggs in "Bonnie and Clyde" and fifteen(?) years later with "Deliverance" and Eric Weisburg and <brain cramp> Steve...(?)
It's cyclical and the pattern will come again.
See Nick, I can't really seem to keep my trap shut even when I say I will! :Wink:  :Wink:

----------

DataNick, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## DavidKOS

> I think the labels have been bastardized by the industry and is probably pretty typical of any marketing program.  The music industry reminds me of the beer industry.  A brewer makes beer or a musician makes music.  Then, to 'sell' those products they go through a wholesaler, the beer distributor or agent/promotor.  Then, those middle men sell the product to a retailer, restaurant/bar or venue.  Not entirely the case but I'd argue the most common pathway between the product and the consumer.  Yes some breweries and musicans 'sell directly' but that's a different story.  
> 
> *Because the middlemen are not directly attached to the product, a single band or beer brand is but one of a myriad of products a wholesaler will be selling, they don't feel the same way about the product, aren't as connected to it, and view it differently than the artist/brewer.*  So they sell it however they think will generate the most sales.  I would guess these wholesalers look to the consumer markets to determine how to sell them.  they will use the terminology and jargon common to the buyers.  
> 
> Before "Oh, Brother", bluegrass had become kind of a bad word to agents and promoters .....  I'd guess this was largely done by promoters, again, but it doesn't matter.  Suddenly, as many have said, everything was bluegrass because bluegrass was selling.  .





> "Oh brother" is not new, it brought a few people an introduction to the music, in Very broad strokes, the same thing happened with Flatt and Scruggs in "Bonnie and Clyde" and fifteen(?) years later with "Deliverance" and Eric Weisburg and <brain cramp> Steve...(?)
> It's cyclical and the pattern will come again.


Cool ideas.

Musical genre labels are often added after the creation of the music and usually not by the people that make the music. 

In some ways they serve best as they did in old-school record stores or music sales charts - a label on various bins or columns to put music that seems similar, purely for ease of marketing.

And it's all about marketing.

As for the purity of "Bluegrass", there's a range of definitions from the very narrow (if BM didn't do it it ain't BG, dobros are "no part of nuthin", etc.) to the overly wide definition that calls anything with a banjo, fiddle or mandolin "Bluegrass".

And yes, putting festivals together is quite a lot of work and expense, so no wonder promoters want the best possible odds for financial success and care less for accuracy and other issues and more for ticket sales.

Hollywood, of course, has zero commitment to Bluegrass beyond using bits of the music every now and again for commercial reasons. Don't expect much from them!

----------

AlanN, 

DataNick

----------


## AlanN

> calls anything with a mandolin "Bluegrass".


You mean Maggie May ain't bluegrass? Shocking...

And a poster was asking about the other Deliverance guy. It was Steve Mandel. That soundtrack has some Clarence White on it.

----------

DataNick, 

DavidKOS, 

Mark Gunter, 

Timbofood

----------


## DataNick

> In an e-mail to several Cafe e-mail buddies,i put the question - ''How much would it cost to hold a  3 day, 100%  Bluegrass festival with several top bands playing''. Then you have to think of how much the organisers have to pay out for marquees, elec.generators, port-a-loos etc. before they get a single cent. I have 2 friends over here who each organise an annual Bluegrass featival. John Les - 'The North Wales Bluegrass Festival', & Tom Degney - 'The Coastline Bluegrass Event' ( look 'em up on line - The North Wales festival was the 28th this year). I know just how much cash these guys have to pay up front for the ''facilities' & it's £k's. Now these are UK festivals,i can't imagine the boat load of cash required to organise something like the IBMA festival,& even in the US,there's no _absolute guarantee_ that the numbers of fans will turn up to cover the cost.
>      It's for that reason that i think that maybe booking non-Bluegrass and / or lesser known bands helps to keep initial costs down.
> Realistically,you really need to ask the organisers of any of the larger Bluegrass events to gain a real perspective on the thinking,
>                                                                                                                                                                    Ivan


Ivan,

These may be legitimate observations, however I'd like to hear more of your reasoning behind the "labeling" of everything acoustic to bluegrass as per the OP. I can be thick-headed and maybe I'm missing it in your post.

We keep wanting to push the topic into the "traditional vs. whatever" or "bluegrass will die if events don't...." let's try to stay on thread point.

There's a zillion threads on the Cafe where people have hit their head on the wall over the other topics and that was not my intent for this one.

So let's please stay on point, like Mandobar and chris.burcher's posts, or the discussion devolves into the same ole tired arguments, which I for one am tired of....Carry On!

----------

Ivan Kelsall

----------


## AlanN

And lest we forget, effort was made to disassociate bluegrass from the hillbilly long before the recent agents/PR thrust when, on one TV show, there was the image of brooms sweeping straw off the stage, maybe on Hee Haw. And Monroe's band donned the suits and ties for the same reason.

I forget what this thread is about, anyway...

----------

DataNick, 

DavidKOS, 

Ivan Kelsall

----------


## DataNick

> ...I forget what this thread is about, anyway...


This is what the thread is about

_"Remember how just a few years ago, Americana, was the catch-all label to classify by genre various strains of folk, indie-pop/rock, country-indie, etc. that people had trouble identifying as a genre brand?

Well that has now been replaced by the label Bluegrass. No longer Monroe's music as practiced with a certain formula, but now just about every acoustic configuration out there is at home with the Bluegrass label."_

Your comments re: why this has happened or not per your reasoning is what I'm after. The discussion for the most part has been very good...we just keep wanting to beat those other old, tired, dead-horses to death....and I have no interest in that...Carry On!

----------

Timbofood

----------


## AlanN

Easy, son.

I just want to pick Roanoke as fast as is humanly possible....  :Mandosmiley:

----------

DataNick, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## DataNick

> Easy, son.
> 
> I just want to pick Roanoke as fast as is humanly possible....


HaHa!....Right On Alan...Right On Brotha....concur and you crack me up Brotha!

btw: you don't have opening lick down, do you?

----------


## Timbofood

I just want to pick it as "Bluegrassy" as possible! :Laughing:

----------

DataNick, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## Mark Gunter

> I just want to pick it as "Bluegrassy" as possible!


Do you mean "Bluegrassy" as in Bill-Monroe-Bluegrass-Mandolin-style, or "Bluegrassy" as in Americana-labeled-as-Bluegrass?  :Redface: 

And, I wish the used vinyl store I frequent would use the bluegrass label for _something_, they don't have it on any bins anywhere in the store. Have to search through country and folk records endlessly looking for BG gems there. Exactly the opposite of the trend mentioned in OP.

----------

DataNick, 

DavidKOS

----------


## crisscross

> And, I wish the used vinyl store I frequent would use the bluegrass label for something, they don't have it on any bins anywhere in the store.


Same goes for Soundcloud. After you upload a song, it proposes a list of 30 musical styles to label your song, among them obscure ones such as "Dubstep".
But no "Bluegrass", just "Country"...

----------

DataNick, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## DavidKOS

> And, I wish the used vinyl store I frequent would use the bluegrass label for _something_, they don't have it on any bins anywhere in the store. .


Ah, shucks, that's what those labels were invented for. Well, record stores aren't what they used to be.

----------

DataNick, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## Nick Gellie

> Same goes for Soundcloud. After you upload a song, it proposes a list of 30 musical styles to label your song, among them obscure ones such as "Dubstep".
> But no "Bluegrass", just "Country"...


You can put Bluegrass down under "other".

----------

DataNick, 

Timbofood

----------


## Timbofood

Mark, I mean as much like first generation style as possible. 
 Alan, For me, it's not always fast as possible, it's about clean and with the right drive.

----------

DataNick, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## Tom Smart

> Same goes for Soundcloud. After you upload a song, it proposes a list of 30 musical styles to label your song, among them obscure ones such as "Dubstep".
> But no "Bluegrass", just "Country"...


Google "dubstep" and you'll get over three times as many hits as "bluegrass."

It's amazing how insular bluegrassers can be in their awareness of other kinds of music. The truth is, the fan base for traditional bluegrass is tiny and rapidly aging out of existence. If it's to survive at all, maybe it would be more productive to welcome younger acts that want to call themselves "bluegrass" instead of chasing them off the lawn.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## Jeff Mando

Maybe it's just that the "bluegrassers" don't have computers, yet............... :Mandosmiley:

----------


## DataNick

Thank you posters #109 & #110..._instead_ of offering any relevant, productive commentary on how the bluegrass label has changed (like many others in this thread have done), you have only replied with the same old, tired attacks on _"traditional"_ bluegrassers...is that what a lot of you guys live for? I mean please, can we just get off that and just discuss non-emotionally how labeling has changed? If you review the OP, I said it isn't bad, just an observation how the bluegrass label has become inclusive of many varied styles per Americana...Carry On in a positive manner please...

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Mandobart

One thing this has opened my eyes to is the "bluegrass" labeling of nontraditional bluegrass music is not a local or regional thing - it appears to be world-wide.  I used to play with a guy who hosted an open mic and he would advertise it as rock, blues and bluegrass.  I frequently said "but there's no bluegrass here, Tom."  He said "there is when you bring your mandolin."  I replied "there's no solo bluegrass, everyone has to be committed."  I thought it was just a local and regional thing (all the Portland string bands that play here are labeled "bluegrass" by the venues).  When our Bluegrass organization hosts our annual festival we try to get traditional bands or at least those known by "real" bluegrass fans.  I'm sure some of our picks may not meet everyone's definition.

So I guess what we haven't really figured out is _why_ the bluegrass label is being applied to so many other forms of music.  Why are we calling all string band music "bluegrass" instead of "stringband", or "old time," or "folk" or "neotraditional" or "post-Mumford Pop" or whatever.  There must be some reason why those billing the events and shows as "bluegrass" are choosing that term over others.

----------

bstanish, 

DataNick, 

Timbofood

----------


## DataNick

Thank You Mandobart!

As far as _"why the bluegrass label is being applied to so many other forms of music..."_  I think chris.burcher's post #89 seems the most logical to be; but I stand to be educated further...good post Bro!

----------


## Tom Smart

> Thank you posters #109 & #110..._instead_ of offering any relevant, productive commentary on how the bluegrass label has changed (like many others in this thread have done), you have only replied with the same old, tired attacks on _"traditional"_ bluegrassers...is that what a lot of you guys live for? I mean please, can we just get off that and just discuss non-emotionally how labeling has changed? If you review the OP, I said it isn't bad, just an observation how the bluegrass label has become inclusive of many varied styles per Americana...Carry On in a positive manner please...


DataNick, as you yourself said in the original post, it's _"Just an observation."_

Far from attacking "traditional bluegrassers," I am a traditional bluegrasser. Many of my friends and jam-mates are also traditional bluegrassers. I love traditional bluegrass.

But the fact is, many people immersed in bluegrass have absolutely no idea about, or interest in, what goes on outside that tiny bubble. They'll walk out on the Steep Canyon Rangers simply because there are drums. They'll tell you you're playing a song "wrong" because you choose to arrange it with a ii chord in place of a IV. They'll tell you that you're singing the wrong lyrics because Mac Wiseman didn't do it that way. Needless to say, they have no idea about or interest in dubstep or any number of other genres that are far more popular than bluegrass.

These are my friends I'm talking about. I love them, and if they want to keep their listening as narrow as possible, that's fine with me. I still love them and will enthusiastically jam with them, go to festivals with them, hang out with them and talk about the Stanleys, Monroe, the Foggy Mtn. Boys -- the traditional bands that I, myself, love above all other bluegrass bands.

But it's _"Just an observation"_ that they constitute a tiny minority of music fans, that their awareness of the larger musical universe can be quite limited, and that they're getting mighty long in the tooth. It's my _opinion_ (and that's what discussion forums are for, right?) that by trying to protect the sanctity of "bluegrass" as a strictly traditional genre rooted in the 40s and 50s, they're only alienating younger people who might otherwise come to appreciate that genre by wandering over there from something more progressive. And that if they were successful in their "that ain't bluegrass" project, the genre would die off completely in 20 years.

If you want me to offer "productive" commentary, it's right there in what I said before: "it would be more productive to welcome younger acts that want to call themselves 'bluegrass' instead of chasing them off the lawn."

I believe my comments are, in fact, directly relevant to your topic, "how the bluegrass label has become inclusive of many varied styles per Americana."

----------

DataNick, 

michaelcj

----------


## DataNick

OK Tom; perhaps I'm just not getting it and I apologize for any consternation I might have caused.

I'm having a challenge understanding how some bluegrassers reaction to other _"acts"_ has anything to do with the general public's perception and labeling of what bluegrass is: meaning 30 years ago I think the general public would not have considered an acoustic trio of guitar, fiddle, and bass as bluegrass; but today from what I'm seeing (and I think post #89 explains it best) they do. So in that context what does marketing and middlemen setting genre labels have to do with a nondescript small population of an obscure(speaking in today's context) genre?...I mean are marketing and middlemen music business folks really paying attention to a few bluegrassers? I don't see the connection...so educate me...I'm always open to learning...

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Timbofood

Sort of "cross picking" this thread to the "Mashgrass" thread. I just listened to the Darrell Webb link and then bounced back to Pandora while making dinner. 
Ralph sure sounds pretty "Mashhy" by those standards! Darrell is pretty hard driving straight on that one.
"Observation"

----------

DataNick

----------


## AlanN

30+ years ago:

No Thile
No Steep Canyon
No YMSB

What we did have was:

Larry McNeely
New Deal String Band
Cache Valley Drifters
NGR
and other off-kilter bands

Just a continuum, my friends.

----------

DataNick

----------


## foldedpath

> 30+ years ago:
> 
> No Thile
> No Steep Canyon
> No YMSB
> 
> What we did have was:
> 
> Larry McNeely
> ...


Yep... thirty-eight years ago (yikes, I'm old!), David Grisman released the album "Hot Dawg." I remember seeing that first band (minus Grapelli) at a terrific live concert in Peacock Park in Miami, back when that was a hippie hangout.

Not Bluegrass by anyone's definition, but it was part of a movement that took the classic BG instrumental ensemble in new directions. I wasn't a BG fan back then, but that Dawg music bent my ears in some interesting ways, and I followed everything Grisman and similar artists were doing back then. I still listen to Tony Trischka's "A Robot Plane Flies over Arkansas" every now an then. Still listen to Bela, etc.

The thing is... I don't remember any of those bands actually calling themselves Bluegrass. They wouldn't have gotten invited to any trad BG festivals anyway, but they were pushing something new and wanted to be recognized for it. I remember the term "New Acoustic Music" being used at the time.

Whatever happened to that? Seems like it could apply to a lot of the quasi-BG bands now, and they wouldn't have to latch onto the BG term. But I guess it's all up to the marketing needs of festivals and what remains of the paid-for music distribution networks. If "New Acoustic Music" didn't catch on, they can't use it for a festival or streaming genre label.

----------

DataNick, 

michaelcj

----------


## AlanN

You betcha. Many great - forgotten? - records from that era, like:

Bela's first - Crossing The Tracks
Tasty Licks, with Bela and Jack Tottle
That Flying Fish jam thing with Jethro, Sam, Norman Blake, Tut Taylor, Vassar, Dave Holland(!)
Grisman Rounder Record
Darol Anger - Fiddlistics
Muleskinner

All great

----------

DataNick

----------


## Timbofood

OK-40+ years ago
Plenty of Bill Monroe
Ralph Stanley
Lester Flatt
Jim McReynolds 
Kenny Baker
Curly Ray Cline
Don Reno
Earl Scruggs
Bill Harrell
Doc Watson
Merle Watson 
U. Utah Phillips
Frank Salamone 
Jim Ringer
Les Freres Balfa
Mike Seeger
And that list goes on....
Sadly, growing before so many have had the chance to see the "Originals"! Sadly I missed a chance to see Harrell and Reno due to a case of "teen angst" still have a hard time with myself about that! Stupidity of youth.
I feel very much blessed, and honored to have seen as many as I have. 
To hear a generation of music be passed on to the next IS Americana! 
To quote an old "Americana" originators song;
Doc Watson: " Life gets tedious, don't it?"

Frightening ain't it!?
A thousand apologies to so many who have gone before and a truly heartfelt "Thank You!"
But, to get back on track, yes I think it's become a catch phrase in a "Pokemon go" world of marketing.

----------

DataNick

----------


## crisscross

The Youtube autoplay brought me to see this video.


It says "The Bluegrass Situation" above the video.
I'd call this "Progressive acoustic music".

----------

DataNick

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## Jeff Mando

Nice video.  Certainly not Bluegrass.  Could be called "Bluegrass instruments used to make nice music."  We've seen it before, like when Bela Fleck went "Jazz" 20-some years ago....

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DataNick

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## Franc Homier Lieu

> The Youtube autoplay brought me to see this video.
> 
> 
> It says "The Bluegrass Situation" above the video.
> I'd call this "Progressive acoustic music".


I think it says "The Bluegrass Situation" because it is on the YT channel of this site:

http://www.thebluegrasssituation.com/

Check out their 'about' section for some background 

http://www.thebluegrasssituation.com/about

----------

DataNick

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## DataNick

> Nice video.  Certainly not Bluegrass.  Could be called "Bluegrass instruments used to make nice music."  We've seen it before, like when Bela Fleck went "Jazz" 20-some years ago....


Not picking on you Jeff, just an observation that in this country we seem to be transfixed on labeling violins, mandolins, etc. as _"bluegrass instruments"_ when in fact, and from a global perspective they're just instruments used in a wide variety of musical genres/styles and with the exception of the banjo(which is not in the video) got their start primarily in classical music.

I believe that's part of the dichotomy: in the USA we want to rush to label music with violins, mandolins, guitars as "bluegrass, folk, etc. whereas in other parts of the world I believe that concept is foreign.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## JeffD

Bluegrass is a tiny minority slice of the music out there. 

Think of this, the mandolin is a minority instrument. Not a large percentage of musicians play mandolin.

Of that small number of mandolin players, a majority do not play bluegrass.

Of the general public, most people do not even know there is a mandolin in bluegrass music. Banjo they know, mandolin, what's that.

We are such a small musical category that were it not for Americana, we reside in "miscellaneous" where even there we would be hard to find.

The blink of an eye is tiny compared to eternity. But to the eye that it is blinking, it is the whole universe.

----------

DataNick

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## Willie Poole

I like the idea of labeling the Bluegrass of today as "New Acoustic Music"  Then you could include a variety of acoustic music on one festival...I have been searching for a good title for this new stuff for a long time and I believe this is it...THEN  if someone wanted to put on a "Bluegrass" festival they could just feature bands with the traditional bluegrass sound.....Many years ago some festivals mixed country and bluegrass on the same show, they called it a "Hillbilly" music show...Then along came drums and electric instruments and they seemed to separate the two...

      I know what I like and what I consider bluegrass you may do the same thing if you like...

----------

DataNick, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

The music festival that the "Great Lakes Acoustic Music Association" (GLAMA) puts on here in February is billed just that way Willie, very sensible indeed. They have had everything from bluegrass bands(Rodney Dillard was here a few years back) to Gypsy Jazz and everything in between, something for most everyone and it has been a smashing success even the year it was ten below with fourteen inches of snow blowing in the parking ramp next to the hotel! 
I think the "honest labeling" of a festival makes more sense than the "bait and switch" of calling it BG and having it be 60% something else. Check out their website, I think it's something like GLAMA.org but, I make many mistakes.

----------

DataNick

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## Kennedyland

I'll chime in on this, and I'll admit I haven't bothered to read every response in this thread, so my suggestions may have been made earlier. In looking at classifications - Americana, etc., I believe it all falls under one singular category that has - as of late - become something of a dubious and, frankly, goofy term. Country music. Frankly, I think all of this falls into that general term. Old time music, folk music, Bluegrass, alt-country, roots, Americana, etc. are simply variations of country music, and I wish that classification were once again used. Now, I can understand why people tend to shy away from that word. A lot of current "country" music is rather silly and comes across more like advertising jingles for beer, babes, cars, cowboys hats, and more beer, babes, cars, and cowboy hats. However, I see a lot of these musical classifications as a way to circumvent the term "country music", but that's a shame. Americana sounds so general and generic, that I haven't the slightest idea how to identify what it is. My vote goes back to calling all of this country and letting the cards fall where they do indeed fall.

----------

DataNick, 

DavidKOS

----------


## DataNick

Kennedyland:

check out posts #43, #89, and #112....pretty much sums up the phenomena of what has transpired from my perspective at least...YMMV

----------

Kennedyland

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## Mandoplumb

I agree with the thought Kenneyland stated except I'd go one further. Country leaves a bad taste in any one that appreciates any real music, because of what it has become. I'd go back a few years and make the umbrella that all that goes under ---- wait for it--HILBILLY!

----------

DataNick, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Kennedyland

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## Nick Gellie

Nick,

A new generation is taking over and they are reinterpreting what has gone before.  They are also writing their own bluegrass tunes and their take on the Monroe sound because they are appealing to a much more discerning and younger audience for the most part.

See here Chris Thile and Punch Brothers on the Prairie Home Companion:




See here Chris Henry playing with his band:




Lyndsey Lou and the Flatbellies here:





These bands are made up of hipsters and they project a young new style without the hats and suits of the Monroe era.  We still have bands here in bluegrass in Australia who are strong adherents of the old style.

And these guys are reinterpreting swing with smaltz and style and have nearly 17,000,000 hits on youtube.  They hit the mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLnZ1NQm2uk

And it is great to see bluegrass and swing getting a look-in in avant garde music.  I am absolutely fed up with the jaded cooked up brew of Americana foisted on us by the established music industry.  Here we see musicianship and classy locals contributing their folksy or swingy thing.

----------

DataNick, 

DavidKOS, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Rush Burkhardt

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## Timbofood

Interpretation is just that Nick, re interpretation is something else again. Discerning and youth also do not, always, go hand in hand. My opinion. Knowing and doing are the first example to come to mind.
Chris Henry absolutely drilled a Frank Wakefieldian influenced break, hands down "non conformist!" Well and truly within, what I see as, a bluegrass vein. Traditional? Maybe not to the (think Wakefield) "Unwiise" but, about as real as they get! Strong work Chris!!
Talent and "style" are two very different commodities. I've played with some of the folks from the "Flatbellys", talented folk without a doubt, stylistically, I play more "fat butted". I love playing with great people, style take the hindmost. Playing music is fun, it's supposed to be fun, it's PLAYING. Doesn't matter what you call it, it's still music.
The thread is covering a LOT of ground, marketing, labeling, style, taste, fashion, weight, favorite food will be slipped in. :Grin: 
For me, Well considered grilling at a festival
Maybe this:

----------

DataNick

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## Mark Wilson

> Playing music is fun, it's supposed to be fun, it's PLAYING. Doesn't matter what you call it, it's still music.


the end  :Mandosmiley:

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Timbofood

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## Mandoplumb

I don't see how the subject of the lyrics or if the performers are wearing string ties and hats define a musical classification, that's the stuff of commercialism ie all "country" stars now wear jeans, boots and cowboy hats. When I think of traditional BG I'm thinking of the timing, the "clean"( read tasteful or simple, not talking of lyrics), the harmony structure and mix. Most of the Newgrass or Americana, or what ever it's called now doesn't conform to these traditional aspects of BG. If we change the fundamentals of anything then we have changed that " thing" to something else.

----------

DataNick, 

DavidKOS

----------


## DataNick

Here's a personal anecdote/experience: one of my bands played a millennials beach bar/restaurant in Pacific Beach here in SoCal a couple of years ago. Our fiddler at the time, who is a millennial, sang a popular millennial song, and his fiddle part kicked butt I might add. Even though surprisingly, they really liked the up-tempo bluegrass numbers and breakdowns, the song that they begged us to play (did it 3 times) that the drunk girls dancing about in front of us wanted to hear, that brought the house down, and was certainly their conception of _"bluegrass"_...you guessed it: Wagon Wheel

----------

DavidKOS

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## Mark Gunter

> Most of the Newgrass or Americana, or what ever it's called now doesn't conform to these traditional aspects of BG.


Good points in your post, and what you write in this sentence is true, but it seems like a straw man. Newgrass and Americana to me are words used to categorize different things, not the same things, and neither one is supposed to be Bluegrass so why should either Newgrass or Americana conform to those traditional aspects of Bluegrass?

One of the problems with genre labels is that everyone can't agree on what the labels mean or what exactly defines the genre. To me, Americana is a label that means new music done in older styles, usually heavy on acoustical instruments. It would encompass new music that adheres to or draws heavily from many genre, including blues, country blues, old-time, folk and bluegrass, to name a few. It has never been meant to be synonymous with either Newgrass or Bluegrass to my knowledge. It is a very broad designation that would cover new traditional Bluegrass acts, new non-traditional Bluegrass acts, same with new folk acts, etc. all under the umbrella of Americana.

I think Nick's point in the OP is that the term Bluegrass in and of itself seems to be morphing into a use that approximates the use of the label Americana - that people seem to be moving toward lumping what I would see as all types of Americana acts under the term Bluegrass. I don't know if that's largely true, but we do see it happening in concert titles and festival titles.

The fact that Americana or Newgrass doesn't conform to the traditional aspects of BG is a given. They're not meant to.

----------

DataNick

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## Timbofood

PLAY music, let the listener "buttonhole" what it is, they will be wrong, unless they are "Wiiiise" so, it either becomes a "teaching moment" or....."Bleeping"moment.
I will admit the "Sysiphian" (correct as needed, spelling may be erroneous) task involved and I have had to "teach" for 40+ years on that topic. We played a wedding gig a number of years ago where the bass player's wife felt the need to try to educate the crowd and got really twisted when they simply did not care. I am always willing to share time, knowledge, experience, and (limited) talent should anyone ASK. If they don't, no skin off my nose. 
Music is a living thing, it will change as it grows until it reaches such status merits it "idolatry". Think about classical music, a WRITTEN genre, Bluegrass is, until recently, a largely "aural" tradition, what you hear is what you learn. Now, given the medium we are using (with this forum) has changed that by people "needing" tablature to learn a tune. It's a tool granted but, we also have the arguably helpful source of YouTube and it's ilk. PLAY music, Enjoy music, stop the need to compartmentalize every aspect of LIFE! Please?
I think Willie Poole might agree you simply can't teach all dogs all tricks. Some dogs just will not learn. I had one.

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DataNick

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## DataNick

I gotcha Tim....Eat food!....Well yes, but some of us do expect Chinese when we go to a Chinese restaurant, and not Thai...are they similar? Depends on what level you want to go to...people from those countries would invariably point out the myriad of differences...I feel ya Brotha but I do like to get what I expect I ordered from the menu...YMMV...better thread than I had hoped for!

----------

Rush Burkhardt, 

Timbofood

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## Ivan Kelsall

I agree that Bluegrass,Folk,Old Timey etc. are varieties of ''Country Music'',but the _''Hat acts''_ of only a few years ago,were also classed under the Country Music banner. May the good Lord forbid _any_ association with that stuff.  :Disbelief: IMHO,in order to try to separate 'true' country music from the ''other stuff',only _Old Timey / trad. US 'Folk' music & Bluegrass & maybe the Jug Bands_ should bear the name ''Country Music'' simply because the 'Country' was where most of it originated. Call the 'other stuff' _City Music_ if you wish to,but for heaven's sake,keep it as far away as possible from true Country Music.
   I'd save the appelation ''Country & Western'' for the George Jones / Buck Owens etc. style of 'Country' - purely my opinion,
                                                                                                                                                                      Ivan :Wink:

----------

DataNick, 

DavidKOS

----------


## dang

Interesting thread! Read most of it, some of you are pretty long winded :Wink: 

I have repeatedly found that if you cover one bluegrass song, even if the rest of your set isn't bluegrass, you are called a bluegrass band.  

I think it has to do with the desire to label things, and most of the general public hasn't heard of terms like "newgrass" or "new acoustic music". So the label they apply is often bluegrass.  I like this, as they aren't applying the label of Country to what I am doing, it's almost like they met me half way, they seem to acknowledge I am doing something other than what they hear on the radio. 

I also feel like people are throwing around "americana" a lot because it is not as well defined. The americana police haven't formed a consensus enough to tell a band they aren't playing real americana yet. It must seem pretty safe to call a band from the US an Americana band as opposed to the backlash from misusing bluegrass...

Just my opinion, ymmv, forgive me if I rehashed ideas from another post, and Nick... I die a little inside when "wagon wheel" gets played a second time (or 3rd).

----------

DataNick, 

Timbofood

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## DavidKOS

> I agree that Bluegrass,Folk,Old Timey etc. are varieties of ''Country Music'',but the _''Hat acts''_ of only a few years ago,were also classed under the Country Music banner. May the good Lord forbid _any_ association with that stuff. IMHO,in order to try to separate 'true' country music from the ''other stuff',only _Old Timey / trad. US 'Folk' music & Bluegrass & maybe the Jug Bands_ should bear the name ''Country Music'' simply because the 'Country' was where most of it originated. Call the 'other stuff' _City Music_ if you wish to,but for heaven's sake,keep it as far away as possible from true Country Music.
>    I'd save the appelation ''Country & Western'' for the George Jones / Buck Owens etc. style of 'Country' - purely my opinion,
>                                                                                                                                                                       Ivan


Well today's "hat act" stars are NOT city music either so that name doesn't work.

Since most of them are faking being "country", - all hat and no cattle - let them just work as they are labeled "Country".

But I agree, the older term "Country and Western" or "C & W" is more descriptive of the older traditional acts that were authentically "country".

But many of those "authentic" C&W artists were also authentic PROFESSIONAL ENTERTAINERS.

Example - Bluegrass may have been formed from old-time and other American folk music, *but it was created by professional musicians (BM already had a career with this brother) strictly for stage and professional use*.

Same with Western Swing and acts like Bob Wills. Professional musicians creating a style for professional use. Costuming note - Wills and band wanted to dress in suits like regular dance bands of the ear. Their promoters made them wear the hats to keep a "country" look to the band, which just of itself as a type of jazz/swing dance band.

Same with the "hat acts" of today. Professionals making a style to sell.

As for labels, well, why not haul out the ones that were replaced by "country and western", "Bluegrass", etc.

Hillbilly and Old-time

And I'm not sure "hipsters" are the style I want leading any musical movement.

----------

DataNick, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Timbofood

----------


## crisscross

> I think it has to do with the desire to label things,


Or the necessity to do so.
If you had to find a term, that unites a mandolin, a dobro, a six string banjo and a lap steel guitar, what would you coose?
Thomann sells them as "Bluegrass Instruments" . http://www.thomann.de/de/bluegrass_instrumente.html
Maybe, someone should explain them, that a roundneck resonator guitar is more often used for blues...

----------

DataNick, 

DavidKOS

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## Timbofood

"Long winded"?
Read some of those "murder ballads", we're in good company!
I have been avoiding mainstream music since I was thirteen, now what I had escaped to is becoming more what I tried to escape. 
Time marches on.
Yep, truth in labeling Nick! That was exactly what I was talking about. As for the Thai/Chinese thing, my great grandmother was Thai she left all that wonderful involved flavor for the "boiled beef" of Midwest America for love. I wish I had ever had her cook for me!
This week this kind of thing will be on the bill of fare:


Along with myriad grilled delights.
All just as advertised!
Off to vacation tomorrow, limited connectivity for a couple af weeks.
Have a nice time folks, play nice!

----------

DataNick

----------


## DavidKOS

> Or the necessity to do so.
> If you had to find a term, that unites a mandolin, a dobro, a six string banjo and a lap steel guitar, what would you coose?
> Thomann sells them as "Bluegrass Instruments" . http://www.thomann.de/de/bluegrass_instrumente.html
> Maybe, someone should explain them, that a roundneck resonator guitar is more often used for blues...


But the squareneck Dobro is VERY much a BG instrument, at least since Flatt and Scruggs with Josh Graves, even if it no part of nuthun'.

The six-string banjo? not so much! That's a traditional jazz instrument a la the great Johnny St. Cyr.

Lap steel - Hawaiian music and Western Swing...not BG.

But heck Thomann is a German firm, what do they know about "Americana" and "Bluegrass" ?  :Laughing:

----------

DataNick

----------


## DataNick

Tim,

You're makin me hungry Brotha...LOL!

Where you goin?

----------


## Willie Poole

Not to tell my age but when I first started to listen to The Grand Ol` Opry they called it "String Music" as there wasn`t an instrument in the band that didn`t have strings, then came a harmonica and later a set of drums, which the Opry management tried hard to not let them in, and then came electric guitars and still some acts were acoustic so the term "Hillbilly" appeared and later was called "Country" because most of the acts came from the rural areas and then some singing stars from the western movies came on the Opry, like Tex Ritter, Gene Autry, Roy Rogers so the term "Western" also got inserted along with "Country"....The term "Bluegrass" was given to Monroes music because he was from the bluegrass state, Kentucky, and his music was a lot different than what was appearing on the Opry at that time and people felt that his music needed a name to set it apart from Country, Hillbilly and Western music...And I think it should still be set apart from all other forms of music and kept as much like it was originally....

     Mr. Gunter says that it`s "New music played in an old style" which would still tend to keep in labeled as "Bluegrass"  What I believe is more correct is "Old songs played in a modern style" and that is what sets it apart for true bluegrass as I see it...An example is the above video of Footprints In The Snow...Non of the breaks were played in a bluegrass style, I never did hear any melody being played...

      This is a long discussion and I don`t believe anything will ever get resolved as to what Bluegrass, Country, or  Americana really is...

       Some very good thoughts on this subject however....Willie

----------

DataNick, 

DavidKOS, 

Randolph, 

Timbofood

----------


## DavidKOS

> Not to tell my age but when I first started to listen to The Grand Ol` Opry they called it "String Music" as there wasn`t an instrument in the band that didn`t have strings, then came a harmonica and later a set of drums, which the Opry management tried hard to not let them in, and then came electric guitars and still some acts were acoustic so the term "Hillbilly" appeared and later was called "Country" because most of the acts came from the rural areas and then some singing stars from the western movies came on the Opry, like Tex Ritter, Gene Autry, Roy Rogers so the term "Western" also got inserted along with "Country"....The term "Bluegrass" was given to Monroes music because he was from the bluegrass state, Kentucky, and his music was a lot different than what was appearing on the Opry at that time and people felt that his music needed a name to set it apart from Country, Hillbilly and Western music...And I think it should still be set apart from all other forms of music and kept as much like it was originally........



Great post, and you certainly put it in historical context.

----------

DataNick, 

Timbofood

----------


## DataNick

> ...This is a long discussion and I don`t believe anything will ever get resolved as to what Bluegrass, Country, or  Americana really is...
> Some very good thoughts on this subject however....Willie


Thanks Wille! Always appreciate your input!

I think what has been resolved per posts #43,#89, and #112 is the process of how the "label" _Bluegrass_ now is inclusive of many styles/genres of acoustic music, whereas in days gone by it was pretty easy to identify within narrow confines...and to that end, the purpose of the thread I believe has been accomplished.

From here on out, we're all just visiting each other here in cyberspace...YMMV

----------

DavidKOS, 

Nick Gellie, 

Timbofood

----------


## Timbofood

Nick, I'm off to Hammond Bay on the Lake Huron shore. Brother in law will keep an eye on the house, I will be grilling and beaching, a side trip to Lake Superior and plan on some excellent fried whitefish! No space to take a mandolin nor anyone at the other end to play with so, I will be getting back top acting and loading!
May post some vacation pix if I remember to take them!

----------

DataNick

----------


## DataNick

Have a good one Tim, and be safe Brotha!

----------

Timbofood

----------


## RevSpyder

OK, a little different take here... I guess Americana would cover it, but my wife and I have been trying to find some kind of genre classification that makes sense for our music. Although we've been using bluegrass instruments (Mandolin, guitar, banjo, bass -- I think that's bluegrass -- but also celtic bouzouki and everything is anchored by the big powwow drum) on our last few CD's, we've never called it bluegrass. Oh, and we sing all original music in Cherokee. So it's not exactly folk (though we've been nominated for national awards in that category), or country, and it really isn't bluegrass, but based on what DataNick said, maybe we should start using that label too. It just doesn't seem completely authentic to me, though...

Now we don't do festivals, and aside from playing a few powwows, we're strictly a recording band, so the only reason this matters is for entering competitions like the NAMMYs and the Indian Summer Music awards (neither one of which have bluegrass as a category, but I guess that's another story...). It's just tough to get new music heard if you don't fit into some existing category, y'know? Not complaining, we're having a blast, but that's the conundrum.

----------

DataNick

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## DataNick

RevSpyder: Interesting conundrum...shoot us a link where we can check out your stuff, I'd love to hear it; and btw: call it whatever you wish as you'll never please everybody...LOL!

Thanks for contributing!

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## Kennedyland

I don't know. In the end, we'll all call it whatever we like, and perhaps that's one of the great things about it. It can continue to grow, deepen, sound great, and be its own enigma.  Let's just do our best and have a lot of fun playing.

----------

DataNick

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Dang - _" I have repeatedly found that if you cover one bluegrass song, even if the rest of your set isn't bluegrass, you are called a bluegrass band."_. Well,as i said in a previous post in this thread ''if your line up is all Bluegrass instrumentation & the instruments are played in a Bluegrass 'style',then _regardless of the songs that you sing & how you sing them_,you have the right to be considered a Bluegrass band''.   Note - i didn't say a TRAD. Bluegrass band. For Sam Bush / Bela Fleck's old band,the term NEWgrass was conjoured up - i'm ok with that & any other name you want to come up with for  a Bluegrass ''associated'' music form.

    All music forms have evolved over the years,even Classical music. Classical music was doing just fine under composers such as Haydn & Mozart,then alongs comes a young upstart by the name of Ludwig van Beethoven who decides that things need shaking up a bit. The audiences & critics at several of his first concerts were horrified at the ''differences'',but eventually,he did ok !.

    It doesn't matter one bit what any of _us_ say / think - other musicians have _their own_ ideas & they'll put them into practice. Some of them will be widely accepted,some won't be - it's up to us to make our choice & leave others to make theirs - as it should be. I mean,is the recording ''Beatle Country'' by 'The Charles River Valley Boys' ( Joe Val & his gang) considered Bluegrass, because there's not one Bluegrass song of any genre.on it ?. For me it is & any other such recordings also.

   Punch Brothers also have the right to be considered a Bluegrass band - i think that they are,i also think that they went off the rails a while back - _not really !_. They use their Bluegrass line up to perform their own style of 'acoustic music',unfortunately, it doesn't appeal to me (hence the ''off the rails bit''),but lots of others like it,so IMHO,it must be a good thing,it's certainly not hurting anybody.

    Personally,i hope that new young bands like this keep on coming,i also hope that the TRAD. guys will keep on comng up with their own ''_new Trad_.'' style songs & tunes = something for everybody (i hope),
                                                                                                         Ivan :Wink:

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## Mandoplumb

Not to beat a dead horse but I still say BG is not the instrument ( although I think the sustain of electric is impossible for BG) it's not the lyrics, it's not the hats, it's defined by the music. The original Country Gentlemen were called progressive because of their looks and their choice of material, some didn't even talk about the cabin in the mountains, but their drive,and their harmony were pure BG in my opinion.

Oh yeah Duffy didn't play Monroe style and Adcock sure didn't play Scruggs but they both played real, bluegrass.

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## RevSpyder

Here you go: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/clearwaterdrum3. Song #4, Love Is Powerful features mando, and was nominated for Best Folk Song at the 2015 Indian Summer Music Awards.  Please bear in mind I'm no mandolin player, I'm a guitar player who loves the mandolin sound, so...

----------

Cindy, 

DataNick

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## jmkatcher

I like it - that song is sort of REMy too.  :Smile:   Thanks!

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RevSpyder

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## Tom Smart

> ...the song that they begged us to play (did it 3 times) that the drunk girls dancing about in front of us wanted to hear, that brought the house down, and was certainly their conception of _"bluegrass"_...you guessed it: Wagon Wheel


I often find myself in jams with kids half my age. They love Wagon Wheel and play it often. I used to roll my eyes, but I've learned to love it. Not because I like the song, but because I love the joy it gives them and being invited to share in it. And if they want to think of it as "bluegrass," that doesn't affect their enjoyment of it, or my enjoyment of them, one bit.

The last thing they need is some old fart complaining, "That ain't bluegrass." A more productive approach might be, "Nice job! Is it around to me now? Here's an old one called Footprints in the Snow."

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## DataNick

> I often find myself in jams with kids half my age. They love Wagon Wheel and play it often. I used to roll my eyes, but I've learned to love it. Not because I like the song, but because I love the joy it gives them and being invited to share in it. And if they want to think of it as "bluegrass," that doesn't affect their enjoyment of it, or my enjoyment of them, one bit.
> 
> The last thing they need is some old fart complaining, "That ain't bluegrass." A more productive approach might be, "Nice job! Is it around to me now? Here's an old one called Footprints in the Snow."


Well Tom, $$ talks and if the joint is payin, we'll play just about anything...we ended a gig at a retirement home recently with me going solo on guitar singing/playing "Witchita Lineman" because we got a heartfelt request for it...I'll roll with just about anything...

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Mandoplumb - _"...but I still say BG is not the instrument..."_. Would_ any other_ instrument line up create the same 'sound' as a banjo / mandolin / guitar / fiddle & bass ?. No. The line up of Bill Monroe's 'original' Bluegrass boys which had Earl & Lester in it,came to define the 'sound' of Bluegrass as we all know it today. What Bill's line up had been before - who cared ?. Not the audiences,that's for sure. Bill's band at that time was the 'defining article', & for the majority of Bluegrass fans,it still is. You can take almost any song from any other genre & perform it in a 'Bluegrass style' (as per Beatle Country) & it'll be accepted ,not as a Trad. Bluegrass song,but a Bluegrass 'adaptation' - ''Fox On The Run'' is another well known song done in such a way.
    Mandoplumb mentions the Country Gentlemen & their style. The fact that many of their songs were from outside the 'true' Bluegrass genre,but were performed with the _full Bluegrass instrumentation_ line up ( + Dobro),really illustrates my point above.
    I understand Mandoplumb's point absolutely,but don't agree that the instrumental line up isn't a neccessity. It needs the songs / tunes  & performing style + the instuments = Bluegrass music.

   I met & talked with Eddie Addcock at the IBMA Festival in Owensboro,in 1992 & asked him about his playing. As with most players,he started out as a Scruggs style player but quickly found his own 'recipe' (as did Don Reno & others),
                                                                                                                                                   Ivan :Wink:

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DataNick

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## Mandoplumb

Ivan Kelsall you even mentioned the dobro which was introduced by Flatt and Scruggs to BG, not original to the Bluegrass Boys. So who knows if another instrument could fit in and still keep the true " sound" of BG. A lot of bluegrass groups now use an electric base and still maintain the BG sound in their rhythm, drive, harmony etc.  I still hear that  artificial depth, that that too long sustain and miss a real base but I would say that they are playing BG if everything else is right, so I say that the list of  instrument is not the sole defining measure of BG.

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DataNick, 

DavidKOS

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## AlanN

Ah, the electric bass in bluegrass. That's the one area which can make it or break it, for many. I actually don't know any bands which use one now. If anything, it's that acoustic/elec thing I see sometimes, the bass player wears it like a guitar. A pure electric bass in bluegrass was more common some years ago.

DL&QS first record on Sugar Hill had Lou Reid Pyrtle on electric bass. Too bad, as there are some great songs and playing on that, but the bass makes it unlistenable (for me). 

IIIrd Tyme Out wisely had Ray learn and switch to stand-up.

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DataNick

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## Mark Wilson

> Too bad, as there are some great songs and playing on that, but the bass makes it unlistenable (for me). .


I agree.  No matter how good the pickers are, elect bass is all I hear.  The E-bass standups sound ok but dampen stage mojo for me.

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## jdchapman

All genre terms are reductive, mutable and usually misapplied from the outset.  But this is mostly annoying when it leads to miscommunication:  I say I like jazz and mean Sun Ra, and the person I'm talking to thinks I mean something "smooth."  That said, since Bluegrass had a pretty specific origin that distinguished it from other Appalachian stringboard music, this particular change is remarkable to me as well.  Might be because "Americana" is such a terrible catch-all.

Here's my example of "bluegrass" broadening; at least that's what the guy who made the video calls it:

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DataNick

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## jdchapman

Several electric bass players in Bluegrass around here.  Blue Mule most prominently.  Hauling that doghouse around is a pain.

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DataNick, 

Ivan Kelsall

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## DavidKOS

A good electric bass player can make the instrument sound almost like an upright bass, but you do have to dampen the sustain. I learned that playing bass in salsa bands where the END of the bass note was almost as important as the beginning.

And let's be blunt, the technical level of many Bluegrass string bassists is often pretty rudimentary - I don't see a lot of Simandl bass fingerings in BG band bass playing. A GOOD electric player can cover it but they have to really pay attention to details.

Unless you are bowing the bass, the electric is a fine substitute for the string bass.

How do I know?

I have played* both* since 1971.

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DataNick

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## Mandobart

> ...Here's my example of "bluegrass" broadening; at least that's what the guy who made the video calls it:


This is a great example of the original posted question, "why are so many non-BG acts, festivals, etc. being called BG?"  That is a nice folkie version of a pop tune.  There is nothing at all bluegrass about it, yet its been labeled "bluegrass broadening."  I think there are some people who have and perceive a more positive connotation with "bluegrass" than with "folk" (which is another so-broad-as-to-be-nearly-meaningless musical genre classification).  "No I'm not _folk_, I'm _bluegrass_...."

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DataNick

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## Willie Poole

Some more thoughts....Many "traditional" bluegrass bands have changed to a more progressive style because that is what the younger public wants to hear and I for one cannot fault them for doing it if they are making a living playing music, I would just like to see some word installed in front of "Bluegrass" to let people know what is actually being played, traditional or progressive....My band played a gig yesterday out doors at American University and the vendors there were showcasing farming and garden equipment and giving talks on how this equipment help with the "Green" theme that we hear a lot about, any way about 100 people came by the stage area and told me that when they read that there would be bluegrass entertainment they were not expecting to hear it played like the traditional sound because WAMU itself has gotten away from the original sound, these people were very generous with their tips also I might add and thanked us for trying to keep bluegrass alive and well by playing it like it was performed originally....Now we did do a few newer tunes but they were nor received as well as the older tunes, no we didn`t do Wagon Wheel although my bass played does sing it on some of our shows depending on the audience age group...

      "JUST  CALL  IT  MUSIC'  and let it fall where it may...

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DataNick

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## Mandobart

> OK, a little different take here... I guess Americana would cover it, but my wife and I have been trying to find some kind of genre classification that makes sense for our music. Although we've been using bluegrass instruments (Mandolin, guitar, banjo, bass -- I think that's bluegrass -- but also celtic bouzouki and everything is anchored by the big powwow drum) on our last few CD's, we've never called it bluegrass. Oh, and we sing all original music in Cherokee. So it's not exactly folk (though we've been nominated for national awards in that category), or country, and it really isn't bluegrass, but based on what DataNick said, maybe we should start using that label too. It just doesn't seem completely authentic to me, though...music heard if you don't fit into some existing category, y'know? Not complaining, we're having a blast, but that's the conundrum.


I think "world music" (yet another so-broad-as-to-be-nearly-meaningless genre classification) is the label you're looking for.

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DataNick

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## Mandoplumb

Electric bases have come a long way but they ain't there yet. I'd rather hear a rudimentary player on a real bass than a great on an electric. What is great is to hear a Geroge Shuffler on a real base.

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DataNick

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Mandoplumb - _"Ivan Kelsall you even mentioned the dobro..."_. Where in post # 160 did i mention the dobro ?. I know that it wasn't part of the 'original' Bluegrass band & that Lester & Earl introduced it. I have to admit to not being a great fan of the dobro,i OD'd on Jerry Douglas years back,although some players such as Rob Ickes do appeal.

  From above - _"What is great is to hear a George Shuffler on a real bass"._. That's exactly what i heard when i went to see the Stanley Brothers at the Royal Albert Hall in London in 1966. GS was playing guitar,but for a couple of songs,he & the bass player swapped instruments & oh boy,could he ever slap that bass !!! :Disbelief: 

   As for bass guitars - i personally don't care for them in Bluegrass music - but then* I* don't have to cater for hauling a double bass fiddle around. Also,an 'over-mic'd' double bass can get a tad thumpy as well,& i've heard more than a few of those,
                                                                                                                                                                    Ivan :Wink:

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## Mandoplumb

Ivan Kelsall you mentioned the Gentleman with trad. Instrument plus Dobro. That is my point the Gentlemen since we're talking about them introduced songs from many styles that have become BG standards. There is not many people today that wouldn't consider Fox on the Run trad. BG. They also expperimented with a few addition instrument but they still sounded like trad. BG in their timing, drive, harmony, ect. Something a lot if these new bands don't . Also on another comment you made, I once had a bass player tell me he would rather play an up right bass except for having to haul it. He told me this as he unloaded an amp half the size of my pick-up.

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Ivan Kelsall, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

Been incommunicado for the last week or so but, a skim of what I've missed also has become joining the "electric bass divergence" I have heard some very fine electric bass players play fine "real" BG indeed. But, one of my favorites was Art Wydner back with Sparks and what I think of as his "goat pee to gasoline" band!

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DataNick

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## Ivan Kelsall

Hi mandoplumb - I _did indeed_ mention the dobro - apologies !. . I said '' + dobro'' because i don't consider it a 'Trad' instrument - neither did Bill Monroe. Back in the mid 1960's my band acquired an upright bass player by the name of John Henderson. John was a Jazz bass player & very well known in Jazz circles as a great musician. We were knocked out when he agreed to join us. The large car he had for ferrying his bass around served as our ''tour bus '' for close to 2 years - he did get extra cash + gas money for his services. It's a similar thing to what they say about a ticking clock,''you don't hear it until it stops !''. It was the same with John & his bass fiddle. We'd played as a trio,banjo,mandolin & guitar for close to a year & we sounded ok,but add John's bass & the sound filled out enormously,take it away & the sound collapsed.

    The 'song' 'Fox On The Run' isn't a Trad Bluegrass song,but it was performed in a 'Trad.' Bluegrass _style_, & , as you pointed out,so were other songs. My all time favourite Rock'n Roll singer is Buddy Holly,& several of his songs lend themselves to being performed in a Bluegrass 'style',but that doesn't make the songs 'proper' Bluegrass songs. Me & my band used to play several of BH's songs & they fit great,but if they were performed that way for a 1000 years,i'd never consider them Bluegrass standards. They are (were) what they were,pop songs performed in another style,
                                                                                                              Ivan :Chicken:

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DataNick

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## Mandoplumb

Ivan I don't mean to offend but I bet you are one of the very few people who would not consider Fox on the Run a blue grass standard, I dare say that the majority of people that have heard it heard it bluegrass style. If the song is done with the beat and drive and simplicity of bluegrass in my opinion it is bluegrass even if it don't talk about the cabin in the mountains. Don't get me wrong I love the old original BG songs but I don't think it has to be written 60+ years ago to be a BG song

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DataNick, 

Ivan Kelsall

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## Willie Poole

Bluegrass music must have "Drive", not speed but drive....I saw a band just yesterday, an all girl band and you could tell that they had taken lessons on all of the instruments and they were just like clones standing on the stage, no feeling or drive in their music, never cracked a smile, just played with no feeling at all, they can`t sing either...No I wont mention their name, I don`t want to sound negative...

     Willie

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Timbofood

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## Timbofood

Once again, Willie and I are on the same page about "drive" v "speed". One has precious little to do with the other. 
"Fox" has become an oft requested number but, is not really one of the deep traditional tunes, I see both sides of that coin.

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## Mandoplumb

Agree totally with Willie. When people try to tell me that you must have speed  to have drive I tell them to listen to the classic Country Gentlemen. Even their slow numbers it just drove thru you.

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Timbofood

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## Franc Homier Lieu

> you could tell that they had taken lessons


Lessons. Imagine that. Where does it all end? :Wink:

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## Ivan Kelsall

Mandoplumb - ''Fox On The Run'' HAS become something of a Bluegrass 'Standard' & i do indeed accept it as such,but it's not a Trad.Bluegrass song & never will be,any more than the Beatle's song ''I've Just Seen A Face'' which i've heard many Bluegrass bands perform. They're songs 'borrowed'' from another genre & performed in a Bluegrass style.

   I totally agree with the distinction between ''speed'' & ''drive''. I've heard far too many tunes performed 'fast', & to me,they're like stones skipping over water - shallow. If you listen to some of Bill Monroe's earlier  'fast' tunes,you can almost hear the musicians ''digging'' into the music = DRIVE !.  If you listen to this tune ''Big Mon'' you can almost ''feel'' the energy that the musicians are putting into it,& to get that 'drive',you really have to be a competent & experienced musician IMHO. You also need something that many newer Bluegrass bands seem to lack,_a real depth of feeling for the music itself_. Bluegrass music isn't a ''superficial'' form of music & simply 'playing the notes' doesn't cut it (IMHO again !),
                                                                                                                Ivan :Wink:

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DavidKOS

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## Timbofood

Ivan, if I EVER get across the pond, we will,(not shall but, WILL) meet and listen, play and talk music! I think we have more in common than I would have imagined had it not been for this site.
I've said it before, that is the first Monroe album I ever got, it was a gift from the guy who set the hook as far as playing music. I gave him the James and Bill record, (Father and Son, I think) that was almost fifty years ago. It sure has been fun! He has moved on to becoming a bass violin dealer living in NYC and Italy. I'm still here in Kalamazoo, hmmm.
Yes, the guys "digging in" is so clear on that cut (with the F-4) it's not breakneck fast but, as another old friend said one time, "It gets in a hurry, doesn't it!" It's so clean, you can hear every pick stroke every rock of the fiddle bow, it's the way I aspire to play! Sadly I fall short of that excellence more often than reach it anymore.
The ability to play with accuracy for many, myself included, slips when trying to play too fast, or hard but, with "drive" the illusion of speed is there. When everything is going really well, I can play fairly fast but, anymore I don't play enough to keep it up for very long.

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Ivan Kelsall

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## Ivan Kelsall

Timothy - I have a feeling that it was also _the first_ Bill Monroe LP that i bought. After that,i imported several more LP's from the US via a record dealer in Manchester,inc. ''Bluegrass Ramble'',the LP i took down to get Bill & the boys to sign when they played the 'Manchester Sports Guild',June 6th 1996. As it happened,i only got BM's & Lamar Grier's signatures.

   The import LP's i bought back then are still in almost mint condition & include several famous Flatt & Scruggs ones - ''Foggy Mt.Banjo'' being just one of them. It wasn't too long after that,that the UK was,as was the USA, immersed in the great Folk music boom,& LP's from the US became widely available. One LP i remember being offered,& which i duly bought,was ''The Greenbriar Boys'' first LP with Ralph Rinzler's famous '_notes on Bluegrass'_ on the back of the sleeve. I bought the second GBB's LP ''Ragged But Right'' when it came out. On it was the track which pressed my mando button ''I Cried Aagin''. Ralph Rinzler's intro knocked me for six & it still does. For me RR's mandolin playing is the best 'Monroe style' playing i've ever heard to this day.

   Quote - _" Sadly I fall short of that excellence more often than reach it anymore."_. Me too at times. My 71 year old fingers sometimes 'lag' a bit,not often but sometimes - the thing to do is to keep on trying. ''The biggest failure of all is not to try'' - don't let it happen,
                    Ivan :Wink:

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Timbofood

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## Mark Gunter

It seems it would be hard to define what is and what isn't a bluegrass song. I still don't really get it most of the time, meaning the stuff I read here about what is and what isn't bluegrass. Seems that to say a song that is taken from another genre and made into a bluegrass style can not be a true bluegrass song _per se_, that would make a lot of Bill Monroe and The Bluegrass Boys' music "not really bluegrass". What about "In The Pines"? I suppose that could never be a bluegrass song since it is really a blues song. What about "The Old, Old House"? I sang that one last week and introduced it as a George Jones song, and a lady informed me that it was written by Bill Monroe. She seemed to think it was a Bluegrass song, said she had a lyric sheet in her binder that said it was written by Monroe. I didn't have the heart or inclination to argue, the song was written by George Jones and Hal Bynum and recorded by George many years before Monroe tried to sing it. Definitely not a bluegrass song by the definitions I read here.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Mark - It's fairly well noted that Bill Monroe often credited himself with an ''arrangement'', & his name appeared along with many song titles that he didn't write. How that stands with the copyright guys i don't know. Bill Monroe himself did ok on the back of Elvis's recording of ''Blue Moon of Kentucky',but i wonder if he'd have been just as  pleased if Elvis had put his name on the record as the ''arranger'',in the same way that BM often did - i doubt it.
    Songs & tunes will come & go & cross over to other genres of music.one of my very favourite banjo pickers,Scott Vestal, does a terrific ''arrangement'' of Mozart's 'Marche A La Turka' (Turkish March) on his CD 'Millenia' - but who would ever call the tune a Bluegrass tune ? - nobody,it's just another 'borrowed' one,
                                Ivan

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## Timbofood

So I wonder if Nick had any idea this thread would turn into cloth by crossing back and forth as much as it has, Nick?

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DataNick

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## JeffD

> It seems it would be hard to define what is and what isn't a bluegrass song. I still don't really get it most of the time,.


No not really.

Its another case of a fuzzy set. The edges are a little fuzzy. There are tunes everyone would consider bluegrass. And there are tunes nobody would consider bluegrass. Then, there are the border cases, tunes only fans of bluegrass and musically knowledgeable would consider bluegrass, and even more refined, there are tunes only traditionalists and players would consider bluegrass.

And if every vote is tallied, in or out, some tunes would be 100% in, some would be 100% out, and of the rest there is a continuum between 99% in and 1% in.

Likely if you picked an audience that knows something about music, and picked a threshold of 90% or better you would capture the idea pretty well.

It doesn't mean Bluegrass isn't defined, or can't be defined. Its just a fuzzy set.

Heck, you can't get everyone to agree on what music is, but that doesn't stop me from playing it every day.

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## dang

So is this bluegrass?  A Bob Dylan song, and not a mandolin in sight!  




In my book these guys are some mighty fine bluegrass pickers, and for some reason I don't miss mandolin at all when they are playing.

----------

AlanN, 

Franc Homier Lieu, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

Excellent example of "crossover" music!
My band has been doing "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" for forty years. I guess one could take the stand that "Bluegrass is what you make it".
Not an easy thing to buttonhole, let's all look at where music in general is in another fifty years.......

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DataNick

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## DataNick

> So I wonder if Nick had any idea this thread would turn into cloth by crossing back and forth as much as it has, Nick?


Tim,

From my perspective this thread was over as of post #148; but folks want to continue "visiting" with each other in cyberspace via this thread, so there ya have it!...And YMMV...LOL!

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## Timbofood

I see, you are a starter! This has been interesting indeed and I probably will continue making noise with it from time to time. Now that I am back in the "wired world" I had to catch up.
The lake was wonderful, lousy music available (no wifi) no TV, just beach great rock hounding and grilling! Excellent butcher shop up there, Plath's, best smoked pork chops ever and rib eyes cut to order!


I was so excited the shot is blurry!

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DataNick

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Dang -_ "In my book these guys are some mighty fine bluegrass pickers, and for some reason I don't miss mandolin at all when they are playing."_  . I certainly do - that's ''The Infamous Stringdusters'' & their mandolin old player Jesse Cobb was terrific.

  Did DataNick expect this thread to turn into what it has done ?. Maybe,but i'm sure he's pleased with the way it's turned out - a friendly discussion & an expression of varying points of view - exactly how it should be IMHO,& i thank him for it, :Grin: 
                                                                                                                                                     Ivan :Wink:

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DataNick, 

Timbofood

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## dang

> I certainly do - that's ''The Infamous Stringdusters'' & their mandolin old player Jesse Cobb was terrific.


Ivan, am well aware of who they are, I posted the video!  And yes, Jesse Cobb was terrific but the chemistry of them as a 5 piece is very different and like I said, for some reason I don't miss the mandolin.

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## Timbofood

Ivan, you are right again, he fabric of this thread has been very congenial, no one has mounted a high horse at all. Interesting points and observations from so many angles.

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Ivan Kelsall

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## Mandoplumb

> It seems it would be hard to define what is and what isn't a bluegrass song. I still don't really get it most of the time, meaning the stuff I read here about what is and what isn't bluegrass. Seems that to say a song that is taken from another genre and made into a bluegrass style can not be a true bluegrass song _per se_, that would make a lot of Bill Monroe and The Bluegrass Boys' music "not really bluegrass". What about "In The Pines"? I suppose that could never be a bluegrass song since it is really a blues song. What about "The Old, Old House"? I sang that one last week and introduced it as a George Jones song, and a lady informed me that it was written by Bill Monroe. She seemed to think it was a Bluegrass song, said 
> she had a lyric sheet in her binder that said it was written by Monroe. I didn't have the heart or inclination to argue, the song was 
> written by George Jones and Hal Bynum and recorded by George many years before Monroe tried to sing it. Definitely not a 
> bluegrass song by the definitions I read here.


Not hard at all just ask me I'll tell you if is bluegrass or not.

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Mark Gunter

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## doc holiday

> So is this bluegrass?  A Bob Dylan song, and not a mandolin in sight!  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my book these guys are some mighty fine bluegrass pickers, and for some reason I don't miss mandolin at all when they are playing.


The String Dusters turned into a jam band after their first album.  Can they pick BG?  Yes.  Are they a BG band.... Not really.

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## Mark Gunter

> Not hard at all just ask me I'll tell you if is bluegrass or not.


A very generous offer! I'll have to study with you sometimes  :Smile:

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## dang

> The String Dusters turned into a jam band after their first album.  Can they pick BG?  Yes.  Are they a BG band.... Not really.


Of course they aren't a bluegrass band, I was under the impression they wanted to make money!  :Grin: 

But seriously, Jam band is just as inadequate a description as it seems Bluegrass or Americana are, and I doubt the stringdusters get much play on the "Jam on" station on satellite radio. I have a feeling they do show up on the bluegrass channel though...

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

The 'Stringdusters' can play any style they like. If they want to play straight ahead Trad.Bluegrass,they can do it - for that reason i'd say that they are a 'true' Bluegrass band - but one that's decided to play in a different style most of the time. The same will the ''Greensky'' guys. I'm pretty sure that they could rip up a decent Trad. Bluegrass tune any time they wished to - i've also heard a few true Bluegrass bands turn a little ''alternative'' at times,just for the difference. ''Alternative-Grass'' might be an appropriate name for what they do,but i feel that it's still within a _broader_ Bluegrass genre. What other genres of music are associated with banjo / mandolin / guitar / fiddle & bass played in _that particular instrumental style_ ?.

    I understand that some folk ( my e-mail buddy & fellow Cafe member Willie - who shall remain namelesss for one) :Grin: ,might see such bands as a dilution of Bluegrass & possibly ''the begining of the end'' for trad. Bluegrass - i don't. For every band that plays in this manner,i could possibly name at least 2 bands who play in a Trad.Bluegrass manner,so i don't see the Trad.brand of Bluegrass disappearing any time soon - that doesn't mean that it won't 'change',it already has done to a degeree,but bands such as Blue Highway / Nashville Bluegrass Band / Del McCoury & the boys, & many others,still play in a Trad.way,but they bring new songs to the genre & let's face it, when Bluegrass arrived on the scene, ALL the songs / tunes were new to the overall genre of ''Country Music'' as it was back then,& we didn't see the established artistes of the time ''runnin' fer the hills !!''.

    Ultimately  - let's just enjoy the music we enjoy & disregard the stuff we don't,that's for other folk to enjoy in their own way,                                                                                                                                                                      Ivan :Wink: 
PS - I shall now await a verbal 'broadside' from Mr.W.Poole :Redface:

----------

dang, 

Flame Maple, 

Mark Gunter, 

Timbofood

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## Willie Poole

OK,  you have really got me into it now...IF these pickers can play different kinds of music, which I am sure that can like many others well then when they get booked on  a "Bluegrass Festival" why don`t they play bluegrass since they are capable of it?  if they do a gig at a college and want to call it "Americana" thats fine also....what I have posted on here is that they should play what the theme of the place they are playing is...It`s all music but I still think there should be a separation between the different types of music, go into a store selling CD`s and you will be hard pressed to find an area that is titled "Bluegrass" any more, the CD`s are stashed under "country" or some other style...Myself I don`t like looking through hundreds of CD`s to find a bluegrass album...

      Willie

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Ivan Kelsall, 

Mandoplumb, 

Mark Gunter

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## Mark Gunter

> go into a store selling CD`s and you will be hard pressed to find an area that is titled "Bluegrass" any more, the CD`s are stashed under "country" or some other style...Myself I don`t like looking through hundreds of CD`s to find a bluegrass album...


Hear, hear! The used vinyl store in Abilene, TX has a great collection/selection of records, and _no Bluegrass section_ - it's crazy to me.

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## Timbofood

Just remember by and large, the music buying public is not us. Recording companies live on what the twelve to twenty year olds find as entertainment. We are building our own ark as far as followers and presenters, of this much misunderstood and under appreciated music is concerned.
Change is bound to happen, that's just life, I've said that one before.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Hi Willie - Thanks for 'letting me down easy'. IMHO -the Stringdusters / Greensky guys want to play their own stuff - in the same way that Bill Monroe founded a whole new music genre playing_ his_ new stuff. I'm sure that they might have started off playing the 'old songs & tunes',but there are so many bands doing that - why just be a ''small fish in a huge pond'' when you can be a Whale in your own ? (sort of). Music like anything else,survives by changing & adapting. The 'new bands' (we'll call 'em that for simplicity) want to make their own way,playing their own songs to their own audiences & personally,i like to listen to 'some' of it for a change. I listen to a lot of trad. Bluegrass every single day,that's how i learned to play banjo & now mandolin,so,when something new comes along that sounds good & it's also a challenge to play - i'll bite !. While practicing,i'll happily mix trad. & new tunes for a couple of hours. Some of the trad. songs & tunes can be a bit 'predicatable' (especially after you've played them a 1000 times !),so i like something to 'stretch my abilities' & give me a new outlook on my playing,& the new bands do that for me every time.
    If folk don't like what the 'new bands' are doing,don't listen to them - i don't. I personally wouldn't cross the road to hear the 'Punch Brothers' for instance,but if i did,i'd most likely get lost in the crowd enjoying their music = it's just not _my_ taste in music, any more than 'Be-bop' or 'Modern Jazz' is.

    As for there being no separate Bluegrass section in record stores,as i mentioned in a previous post, 'Bluegrass'' as a music isn't on most folk's radar when it comes to buying records,& record stores aren't going to invest in a product with a small turnover. So,they'll put any Bluegrass recordings in along with the other 'Country genre' recordings. I ceased looking for Bluegrass CD's over here years back,
                                                                                   Ivan :Wink:

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Timbofood

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## Timbofood

Good point Ivan, how many times does one want to hear "Blue Moon of Kentucky" treated badly by a "well meaning" band, really. If the same group does something different with (more or less) standard instrumentation, they may still fall into the BG realm but, not play traditional tunes. I'm with you on playing the same thing every time, it gets a little old for me. I'm not running anyone  down who gets out there and tries to play anything anymore. Gigs for my band are fewer and farther between, we are the old guys now. The hot kids were Greensky then they went to Telluride and learned about "selling the band". Times do change.

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Ivan Kelsall

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## Dagger Gordon

I've just looked at a Greensky video on their Facebook page. It seems to me that they are attracting a very different audience (young and fairly hippie by the looks of it) from what I would have expected a traditional bluegrass band to get. They sound quite 'bluegrassy' to me, albeit with more contemporary sounding songs, but good on them I would say.

To my mind Americana is a much broader term than bluegrass. I would include the likes of Tim O'Brien, Cahalen Morrison and Eli West and plenty of others who are not always bluegrass but who sometimes are. 'Strictly' bluegrass might seem a bit restricting to a lot of people, and not really all that interesting.

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Ivan Kelsall

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## Timbofood

That's my point Dagger, I'm an old school learned from listening to vinyl, seeing as many of the "first generation" guys as possible. I learned the traditional concept, material, technique, feel. The old way. I learned like Willie and Ivan(I think) from the base crew. Ivan and I have broadened our interests and styles(you may too Willie but, you hold fast to the old way, not a thing wrong with that!) and may be a little more flexible but, we still know what made us start to play BG.
Greensky has found a great market, the "Deadhead turned Skyhead" has become a great thing for them, from the "Poole pool" it does not flow with the traditional concept of a music his ancestor gave so much too. 
I am a big fan of Charlie Poole and his music, my band does "Didn't he Ramble" strictly speaking, not a bluegrass song so, sometimes the genre swings to the past as well as looking ahead. 
Influence on how we play or how a music grows, evolves is so fluid, it's not for us to brand really, is it? Music is a living thing let it grow. Roots stay healthy as long as the whole plant is tended.

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Chuck Leyda, 

Ivan Kelsall

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## Willie Poole

If it has a traditional bluegrass sound I don`t care if it was written yesterday then play it and call it bluegrass...I play a lot of new tunes but we play them in a traditional bluegrass way, it just seems that even when playing an older bluegrass tune the newer bands just have to throw in a few relative chords that aren`t in the original version of the song, true it does catch some peoples attention but to do it one every song to me is more boring than playing the same song 1000 times...I must admit that on some of the old songs that my band plays we do them slightly different just to keep from boring the audience but when we play at a place for the first time we keep them as much like original as we can, we have been playing one pub for over 16 years and when we play it is standing room only and 99% of the audience says they come there when we play because they like the music to be played like it was originally and they don`t get to hear it played that way very much any more...Just as an example we played Cabin Home On The Hill and one man said he enjoyed that Ricky Skaggs song and he had never heard it don`t exactly like that, I told him that is was an original Flatt and Scruggs song and that we played it their way, he also said he liked our version better than the way Skaggs did it, most people think that Ricky did it exactly like F&S but not so...he threw in a minor chord here and there, we don`t, neither did F&S....

    This thread is getting nowhere fast, we all have our opinions and that is good for the music, just enjoy what you like and don`t try to convince anyone else that they should like it too, I just am trying to show what the difference is between some types of music that call them selves "Bluegrass" and that the oldies aren`t dead yet....I, like most people, know it when I hear it...

     Willie

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## Timbofood

I don't think the thread was conceived to "get anywhere" I think Nick was looking for opinions and perspective. Willie, we are cut from similar cloth, I think. We understand what we like and why, we know what we expect from what we see as a genre and what "can work" is not always the way Bill did it but in the way Bill "Might" have also respected.
I like what I like, some new, more old, some very much "non bluegrass" genres as well. There is now so much to pick and choose from, it's kind of easy to get side tracked, kind of like looking something up in the dictionary and learning a new word or two.
It's good to learn.
I absolutely agree that the "signature catch trick" for a band leaves me cold, bad versions of anything have sent me almost running from the stage before and probably will again.
Bed versions of good tunes, no thanks. Interesting versions of unusual tunes, look at Johnny Cash dong the "Nine Inch Nails" song, was it my favorite? No, it was a different treatment of a genre that I would probably never listen to,but, I heard JC do it. Broadening horizons is all.

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## Mandoplumb

I agree that commercial music will outsell any pure music and that the younger people will spend more than someone my age, but one reason I don't buy more is it ain't there to buy. Sure BG CD's won't sell if there are none there for sell. After the movie Old Brother Where Art thou, every store had BG running out the ying yang and I bought more CD's from stores than I had in years         
( probably since Dueling banjos). They weren't sound tracks from the movie but anything BG was " in " at that time.

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## allenhopkins

> ..Just as an example we played Cabin Home On The Hill and one man said he enjoyed that Ricky Skaggs song and he had never heard it don`t exactly like that, I told him that is was an original Flatt and Scruggs song and that we played it their way, he also said he liked our version better than the way Skaggs did it, most people think that Ricky did it exactly like F&S but not so...he threw in a minor chord here and there, we don`t, neither did F&S...


Hey Willie, if and when you play _Foggy Mountain Breakdown,_ do you use an E major chord as Lester F did, or an E minor as 99.9% of bands do today?

Jus' askin'...

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## Timbofood

[I]Touché!
My band goes both ways on that! I just listened to "Oh, Death" with Ralph and Keith Whitley, there is an interesting example of a movie driven surge in music sales just as you say Mandoplumb.
The Whitley/Stanley track is second only to the original Stanley brothers recordings, the "Oh, brother" recording while having a great result for Ralph is not his best, he was not in his best health but, did what all of the old guys did, got paid for singing HIS music. No matter what he was paid, his investment in time, talent, sacrifice was never and, never will be repaid. 
I love BG soundtracks but I HATE movie soundtracks, there's your "yin and yang" a raft of people decide that after listening to one soundtrack they understand what the core of BG music is when they have only scratched the surface. The about it, movies give a bump now and then to a music that has been a sub culture for a long time.
The movie business will continue to help all sorts of music along when it suits their purpose. And only then.
Once again I have gone off on a tangent which has little bearing on the root of the thread, unless someone else finds it, sorry.
Off to do something productive.

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Mandoplumb

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## Ivan Kelsall

*David* - Re. ''Greensky Bluegrass'' - the audience they're appealing to maybe the young, 'hippy' brigade,but i don't think that they set out for it to be that way. I think they put it out there for all of us,just as the vast majority of musicians do - WE make the choice. It may very well be that the younger folk see a band more of their own age & they relate to them more than an older band playing the Trad. stuff.
   I agree with your points re. Tim O'Brien etc. Tim O'Brien has a ''very broad brush'' when it comes to music. He's certainly not a one horse guy. Many of the songs that he's performed with Hot Rize over the years,were performed within the context of a Bluegrass band,but some songs,such as one of my favourites - ''Late In The Day'' are IMO,far more contemporary 'Folk' music than Trad. Bluegrass. Cahalen Morrison and Eli West,i'd describe as being in a distict place of their own - ''New Old Timey'' if you get my meaning. I find it hard to pin their music down to one distinct genre,i think that they're quite unique - & terrific,


                          From the Hot Rize record ''Untold Stories''

    Like Tim - I don't think that Nick began the thread in order to ''get anywhere''. Nick,like most of us is a musician who's seen Bluegrass music 'change' in this way / that way, & simply wanted our ideas regarding the way things are going & how we see the Bluegrass music scene as a whole.

   IMHO - It's one of the most interesting threads i've seen on here for a long while. I've read the opinions of others,& whether i agree with them or not,they are _all valid_ opinions,worthy of note. Simply to sit in our own little world of 'what we like / don't like', & to disregard the likes & dislikes of others,diminishes us as individuals, & thankfully,i don't think there's anybody on here like that,but we _do_ come across such instances every day,the guys who are _always right_.

   I only sound the 'negative' note there,to accentuate the _very positive note_ sounded by Nick's thread & the opinions of the contributors to it,
                                                                       Ivan :Wink:

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Bill McCall, 

Dagger Gordon, 

DataNick, 

Mark Gunter, 

Timbofood

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## crisscross

> It seems it would be hard to define what is and what isn't a bluegrass song. I still don't really get it most of the time, meaning the stuff I read here about what is and what isn't bluegrass. Seems that to say a song that is taken from another genre and made into a bluegrass style can not be a true bluegrass song per se, that would make a lot of Bill Monroe and The Bluegrass Boys' music "not really bluegrass".





> Songs & tunes will come & go & cross over to other genres of music.one of my very favourite banjo pickers,Scott Vestal, does a terrific ''arrangement'' of Mozart's 'Marche A La Turka' (Turkish March) on his CD 'Millenia' - but who would ever call the tune a Bluegrass tune ? - nobody,it's just another 'borrowe


I know, the subject of this thread is not: "What is BG?"
But like for Mark, for me it would be hard to define from the answers I read here , what exactly makes a song a real BG song.
What I miss are musical terms that define the genre. It's mostly names like Monroe, Flatt, Scruggs that are brought up to delineate true BG.

So for exampple: does "Limehouse Blues" qualify as true BG?
And if not ,then why not. What does it have that disqualifies it, or what does it lack, that would qualify it as true BG?

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## Mandoplumb

It ain't grass if it don't have that drive, some bands put that drive in Limehouse Blues some probably don't. The title of the song or where it came from or it's lyrics is not what makes it BG, it's the way it's played IMHO. Limehouse blues played like the video above don't need nothing, it's grass. Any other questions?

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Timbofood

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## Timbofood

I think the "drive" horse has been ridden pretty hard in most of these threads. I feel that "drive" is critical but, is that the only component? Not entirely, face it for what many of us feel is a "simple" music it is extremely difficult to pin down. This has been an excellent discussion, I hope it does not turn into another "What is or isn't BG" thread, those have made me a bit weary.
Excellent musicianship can render a pretty wide scope of material into a more bluegrass acceptable tune. My band gets material from many sources, why not, making a song work for a bluegrass band can be a great project.  It's all fun! One must wonder what Bill Monroe thinks of the direction his music has taken now? But, that's another story.

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Mark Gunter

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## Ivan Kelsall

From crisscross - _"So for example: does "Limehouse Blues" qualify as true BG ?"_. No. Limehouse Blues is a tune written outside the genre of Bluegrass music,but some Bluegrass bands choose to perform it in a Bluegrass 'style' - it's another 'borrowed' tune like ''Farewell Blues'' made famous by Flatt & Scruggs. Simply playing a tune in a Bluegrass 'style' on Bluegrass instruments,doesn't make it a 'proper' Bluegrass tune.  Farewell Blues was a 'Jazz standard' tune written by Paul Mares / Leon Roppolo & Elmer Schoebel in 1922. Strangely enough,''Limehouse Blues'' was also written in 1922 by English composers Douglas Furber & Philip Braham - both well before 'Bluegrass' as a music genre was ever conceived,so how could either one be described as a ''true Bluegrass'' tune ??.
   I mentioned in a previous post that i have a superb rendition of Mozart's ''Turkish March'' performed by Scott Vestal on banjo - that doesn't make it a ''banjo / Blugrass tune'', it's just another ''borrowed'' tune.

    Years ago,when i had my band together,we used to perform ''Bye-bye Blues'',another Jazz standard co-written in 1930 by Chicago based Jazz orchestra leader Fred Hamm = a 'borrowed' tune,not Bluegrass.  That such tunes are borrowed to be performed in a Bluegrass style,doesn't invalidate them as a _'part'_ of Bluegrass,simply not specifically written '_for'_ Blugrass. So,IMHO ''Limehouse Blues'' performed by a Bluegrass band could be called 'true' Bluegrass in 'style',but the tune is still 'borrowed' - there is a distinction,
                                                               Ivan :Wink:

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## Mandoplumb

So does a song or tune have to be written by Bill Monroe to be a real bluegrass song, or could we include Flatt and Scruggs maybe Jimmy Martin. How about Larry Sparks or is it only first generation that can write real BG. If so there will soon be no more true BG written. I have been called ultra conservative about BG, some even put me with the BG police, but I consider music done in a real BG style bluegrass.

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Jess L.

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## Timbofood

And there it goes....

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## Ivan Kelsall

From mandoplumb - _"So does a song or tune have to be written by Bill Monroe to be a real bluegrass song, ..."_. I'll overlook  the fully intended sarcasm & say no,it doesn't,but it would certainly help. One of my favourite Bluegrass songs ''With Body & Soul" was written by Virginia Stauffer NOT a Bluegrass artist,but it was written _to be performed as a Bluegrass song_. Could you honestly say that ''Bye Bye Love'' / ''Crying in The Rain'' originally performed by The Everly Bros.& ''It's All Over Now'' by The Rolling Stones'' are Bluegrass songs simply because they've been performed by The Gibson Brothers ??. IMHO a song / tune needs to be written _specifically for Bluegrass_ to be a 'proper' Bluegrass song / tune. If it wasn't then it's just another ''borrowed'' song / tune.

    I have an LP of ABBA songs arranged to be performed by a full orchestra in a ''Classical style'' - they don't suddenly become ''Classical'' pieces because of that. They are simply 'Pop songs'' arranged in a ''style'' other that that for which they were originally intended.
    I find it very easy to make the distinction,obviously others don't - so be it !,
                                                                                                         Ivan :Chicken:

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## Mandoplumb

Ivan, what is it about a song that keeps it from being bluegrass just because it was first something else. If you didn't know Bye Bye Love was first recorded by someone else how would you know that it wasn't a Gibson Brothers song and therefore a bluegrass song? Do we have to research each song to find the author and any pervious recording to determine if it's BG? If you heard Elvis do Blue Moon Of Kentucky and didn't know it's history would you call it BG. I know we have traditional bluegrass songs that were recorded when BG was first generation but a lot of those were borrowed from pre bluegrass or other styles, by your strick standards there are few real bluegrass songs. I'm very much a traditionalist, when it comes to BG, I've never heard Wagon Wheel that I thought was BG but Limehouse Blues as on the previous post I still would consider BG despite its history.

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## AlanN

The wheels on the bus go round and round...

I consider songs done in the bluegrass style just that. 

Beatle Country (LP by Charles River Valley Boys)
Wild Horses
Limehouse Blues (and all the other tunes of that era done up by the grassers over the years - Avalon, Bye Bye Blues, etc.)
Red Rubber Ball

et. al.

are songs that have done in the bluegrass way, but are not bluegrass songs. We don't live in a vacuum. We know history, what came before what. If someone were dropped on this planet and told to listen to Limehouse Blues by the McCoury clan, would they say "Bluegrass!" Probably. It has the drive, format and groove. But, we know better...

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## crisscross

> I have an LP of ABBA songs arranged to be performed by a full orchestra in a ''Classical style'' - they don't suddenly become ''Classical'' pieces because of that. They are simply 'Pop songs'' arranged in a ''style'' other that that for which they were originally intended.


Historically, "Classical" music is mostly composed by learned composers who notate their compositions. It is then printed, sold and performed by learned instrumentalists or by orchestras.

ABBA performed the songs their members Björn and Benny wrote for their own group themselves.

That's one of the distinctions between Pop and Classical. Academically trained composers and performers in Classical, talented amateurs who mostly write their own stuff in Pop.

I don't see such a distinction between BG,Folk, Early Jazz

To me, this is folk:



And this is BG 


The song as such probably predates BG, but musically it has noting that would contradict categorizing it as BG, such as fancy chords, odd meters, metal riffs...

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## Timbofood

You know, I hear George Jones singing his horse race song with more "what is and what isn't" bluegrass metaphors.
Have fun guys

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## JeffD

I think that asking what is and what isn't bluegrass was one of the first questions I asked on this forum, some umpty ump years ago. It is through this kind of discussion that the boundaries, fuzzy as they are, get a little more clarified.

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Mark Gunter

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## Mark Gunter

> I think that asking what is and what isn't bluegrass was one of the first questions I asked on this forum, some umpty ump years ago. It is through this kind of discussion that the boundaries, fuzzy as they are, get a little more clarified.


Makes sense. I can see that.

My idea re: borrowed vs. Bluegrass - As Alan pointed out, we don't live in a vacuum, and we know some history; obviously songs are often borrowed from genre to genre. Still, a "borrowed" tune can become strongly associated with a new genre by long-term repetitive use by practitioners of the genre - and in a real sense, certain "borrowed" tunes have become Bluegrass standards IMO. And this has been going on since the days of Monroe, and Flatt and Scruggs.

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crisscross, 

Jess L.

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## crisscross

Back to the initial idea: I guess, there is a general tendency to call music based on American Folk styles with an emphasis on instrumental virtuosity (as opposed to heartbreaking vocals, that would be C&W) simply "Bluegrass" , for the lack of a better term.
I remember back in the eighties, when I read a review of a new Dixie Dregs album in a music magazine,  among the styles on this album, one was called "Bluegrass".
Sure, they had Marc'OConnor on the fiddle, and Steve Morse was doing some nice electric flatpicking, but real BG sounds a bit different. 
So I guess it all depends on from which vantage point you're looking at it.

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DataNick

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## Dagger Gordon

I've got to say in all honesty that while I much enjoy the playing and indeed the singing of traditional bluegrass, I do sometimes find the actual songs themselves to be a bit - well, corny I guess.  
I also tend to prefer Monroe's choice of songs to other people's. 

So I'm not surprised that modern bands may opt for what they may see as 'better' material, while still having a strong bluegrass feel instrumentally.

Probably a sacrilegious thing to say, I suppose. Does anyone else feel the same?

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## Mark Gunter

> I've got to say in all honesty that while I much enjoy the playing and indeed the singing of traditional bluegrass, I do sometimes find the actual songs themselves to be a bit - well, corny I guess.  
> I also tend to prefer Monroe's choice of songs to other people's. 
> 
> So I'm not surprised that modern bands may opt for what they may see as 'better' material, while still having a strong bluegrass feel instrumentally.
> 
> Probably a sacrilegious thing to say, I suppose. Does anyone else feel the same?


I'd think that's just a matter of taste; some of us have a taste for "corny" songs and hopefully a very broad spectrum of music.

The edges of genre definition have to "fuzzy" - I think of Del's new album, Woody and Me, which I really like. I believe that Del and the boys have made Bluegrass of most of these songs. They were written but never recorded by Woody (or anyone else for that matter), so despite the Woody Guthrie publishing rights, what Del has made of them is Bluegrass IMO.

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Gypsy

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## Timbofood

So, "Memphis" by Lester isn't BG but, he is, there's your conundrum wrapped in a pair of socks and hidden in a drawer! The converse also applies, Dwight Yoakum doing "Man of Constant Sorrow" sure turns tables, does that make Dwight a BG blasphemer or promoter? I'd like to say the latter but, you will all shout that down.
Not BG, done by a "Master", why is it so critical to try to "define" that which is a constantly growing musical form?
Stop beating the poor horse and go make some music, PLAY some music! 
If we all played as much music as we seem to want to debate genre, this forum (surely this thread) would not exist!

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SlowFingers

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## Mandobart

I love the Dixie Dregs!  I doubt they considered themselves bluegrass.

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## Dagger Gordon

I don't know if you think this is bluegrass or old-timey, but it's certainly Americana.

Bruce Molsky is the business!

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## Beanzy

> Does anyone else feel the same?


I certainly do & am always impressed when bands sing about what is relevant to them rather than just sticking in the ruts plowed by others. As long as they're still in the musical path then I prefer to hear song lyrics I can personally engage with.

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## Timbofood

I remember the "Highwoods string band" do that in '77 while visiting a friend in Richmond IN. Old timey music is lots of fun! Americana seems like a pretty broad scope to me.

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## Willie Poole

I was reading an article just yesterday that sort of puts thing in perspective, if I can remember exactly how it goes, which I can`t....In the 50`s we had hillbilly music which composed of country and bluegrass and later they were separated into different catagorys, we also had Bill Haley, and Elvis and they were doing rock and roll, after a while rock started to spread out some and that became "Acid rock" and then later it was called "Heavy metal" rock, so as bluegrass progresses through its different forms and styles why can`t we or someone come up with a decent name to call this new music, I think Americana is just making it a broader classification but some music that don`t have a place could be put in to it...Americana to me is when a few people get together to play and don`t really have instruments that would classify them as a certain style of music....a mixture of different instruments....

   Hard to explain it but like bluegrass, Celtic, rock and roll and rap and some others, I know it when I hear it...

   Willie

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Gypsy

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## Ivan Kelsall

I've argued the point on here that in order to be a 'true' Bluegrass song / tune,it should have been composed to be performed as a Bluegrass song / tune in the first instance - other than that, they're ''borrowed'' tunes adapted for Bluegrass.  It does however raise the very opposite question - what would you call a 'true' Bluegrass song / tune ( by 'tune' i mean Instrumental), performed by say, a Jazz band or an orchestra etc. ??. Suppose were hear the New York Phil.Orchestra rendering an orchestrated version of ''Jerusalem Ridge'' ( personally i'd love to hear it done) ?. Does it make JR a 'Classical tune or 'whatever' you might wish to call it ?. For me,it is exactly the opposite,it's a ''borrowed'' tune performed in a 'different' style which makes it no less valid as a ''true'' Bluegrass tune as it was originally written as one.
    I saw this YouTube clip ages ago, & the sound of the orchestral strings is simply awesome IMO. I'd travel a long way to hear a hour or so of Bluegrass performed in such a manner & i wish that somebody would come up with a commercial recording  :Disbelief: 
                                                                                                                                                                Ivan :Wink:

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Gypsy, 

michaelcj

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## brunello97

> I've got to say in all honesty that while I much enjoy the playing and indeed the singing of traditional bluegrass, I do sometimes find the actual songs themselves to be a bit - well, corny I guess. ....Probably a sacrilegious thing to say, I suppose. Does anyone else feel the same?



Dagger, amigo, I respect the caca out of you, but don't even know where to go with this.  :Frown: 

When I listen to trad from the Isles, I just pretend y'all are singing in another language and just get into the overall vibe and flow. I guess corn is in the ear of the beholder. Except in Indiana, I suppose, where I give them serious props. 

Mick

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Dagger Gordon

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## jaycat

Really, Ivan, you've gotten 23 years out of one pair of sneakers?!?!

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## Ivan Kelsall

From jaycat - _"Really, Ivan, you've gotten 23 years out of one pair of sneakers?!?! ""_. Where did that come from ???.  :Confused:   Sneakers,sneakers - i don' need no stinkin' sneakers !, :Grin: 
 I do however posess a denim shirt that's over 30 years old.It's been washed so may times that the cotton feels like the finest silk,
                                                                         Ivan :Wink:

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## Dagger Gordon

> Dagger, amigo, I respect the caca out of you, but don't even know where to go with this. 
> 
> When I listen to trad from the Isles, I just pretend y'all are singing in another language and just get into the overall vibe and flow. I guess corn is in the ear of the beholder. Except in Indiana, I suppose, where I give them serious props. 
> 
> Mick


That was a funny post, Mick.

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## Timbofood

Ok' it's gone from a realistic conversation about the progress of musical genre to the obligatory what is and what AIN'T bluegrass now we're throwing more curves in here! 
Jaycat, I'm the one with the twentyfour year old sneakers.
Ivan, I've never been able to get more than twelve out of a shirt, what's the secret?
Mick, wear trousers!
Dagger, it's all music except in Indiana where it's produce.
Apologies to all the folks in Indiana I've just insulted, some great music comes from the state!
So, since we are running off the rails like a crazy train....

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Mark Gunter

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Timothy -_ " Ivan, I've never been able to get more than twelve out of a shirt, what's the secret ?  "_. No secret Tim,it just keeps on coming back for more. It shows no sign of wear at all,although it's faded from a 'mid denim' shade to a very pale Blue. It's soft & very comfortable to wear & i reckon it'll outlast me. 

   That steak reminds me of the one i was offered in Lexington,Ky. back in 1992. I asked the waitress for a larger one than they showed on the menue (8oz). She asked me how big ( no comments please !),& i said a 16oz steak would be fine. I hadn't eaten since 7 o'clock in the morning & it was now around 9.30 pm. She asked me if i'd like a 32 oz steak !!. I didn't know they existed. She took me over to where they were grilling the steaks & the Chef (cook ?), brought one to show me. Well,i don't mind eating a steak,but hell fire,i don't want one that fights back !!!. It was HUGE . I can't remember the name of the Steakhouse,but it was only a 1/4 mile from the Days Inn  where me & my friend Andy  were staying. It was something like ''Tom Hagan's Steakhouse'',but the food was awesome. I also remember that it had a lot of photos.,pieces of kit & bats belonging (or having belonged) to the Kentucky Wildcats Baseball team. Having played UK League baseball myself in the past,it was interesting to see. I just remembered one time after going rock climbing one weekend,i did eat 2 16oz T-bone steaks back to back. I'd forgotten to pack my sandwiches in my backpack. As usual, we called into the steakhouse in Manchester where we used to go after our climbing. I had my usual 16oz steak,but i was still so hungry,i ordered another one,fries & all,

   What was this thread about ?,
                                            Ivan :Redface:

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## Timbofood

Ivan, there was a time when I ate like that. No longer though, that one in the picture was shared by my family, we probably could have forced ourselves to do a,second one but, I simply did t think of it in time, silly me!

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## Bertram Henze

> ... to be a bit - well, corny I guess.

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Dagger Gordon

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## crisscross

> Apologies to all the folks in Indiana I've just insulted, some great music comes from the state!


Another borrowed tune at a Bluegrass festival.

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