# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  An open letter to Classifieds users

## Scott Tichenor

I'm typically not one to engage in open letters to the community, but something has been gnawing at my brain for a very long time. A few days ago I was contacted by a buyer with a question regarding a transaction with a well known seller with a lot of transactions. This resulted in several hours of my time invested in resolving the situation amicably so that the sale stuck. That's my job, but I also do it without pay most of the time, and when I'm putting in hours of free time for the benefit of a seller with a history of not supporting the site or supporting it poorly that makes me very unhappy. 

The individual I dealt with expressed surprise in my tone of voice. He was right. This has been building for a long time and rather than shooting a dart at one person I thought more therapeutic to share that email here composed to no specific name. So allow me to engage in a bit of therapy, and I do need to get this off my chest.

This is not meant to be a "roll call" for those that have contributed fairly or those that have not. Just read it and think about it. If I could be assured of that much I'd be pleased.

--------------

Dear (name removed)

Let me explain part of my displeasure with your use of  the Classifieds. As much as you use them I think you deserve as much. I  apologize if my contact the other day sounded a bit harsh. I have very  good reason. I thought about not saying anything but I really think I  should get this off my chest, and it's clear I need to. I don't like harboring ill feelings. It's unhealthy, so allow me to engage in a bit of therapy.

It has  always been a part of the Classifieds policy that we ask for a 2%  donation back to the Mandolin Cafe to offset operating expenses on successful sales. Maybe you're under the  impression the Cafe rolls in money and that this all happens by magic  and that no effort is involved. Not the case. I can't begin to  calculate how much protection sellers and buyers benefit from every day,  the scams and bad sellers that attempt contact you'll never hear from. It all looks like it's wide open, doesn't it? That's the beauty.  You're being protected at every use and the people trying to take advantage of you never find out,  and neither do you. Site security is a 24-hour operation because people  wanting to take advantage are knocking on the door round the clock. Dan  Beimborn and I have invested hundreds of hours in the security of the Classifieds, and  because of those efforts we're as close to fraud free as Classifieds and  sales resources get on the internet. I compensate Dan quite well  for his work. That's my opinion, I think he'd agree, and he's welcome to weigh in.

Continually dipping the hand in the cookie jar and not supporting the  site or sub-par contributing is little more than poor taste. Successful  resources on the internet  come at a price. They're not free, and it doesn't appear there by magic.   It's the result of hard work, diligence and showing up every day,  multiple times to  make sure it's right. Holidays included.

The Classifieds are the way they are by  design. They're intended as a perk for site visitors. 

Let me make this very clear: _I have no interest  in engaging in forced up front PayPal or credit card payments or the possession of your credit card number in return for the privilege of placing or replying to an ad_. 

If you contact us with a concern about a Classified ad, a human answers--me. Try that at Reverb, eBay or  Craig's List. Two of those don't let you off without  paying. 

I'd like to  think this is just an oversight, but I know from the numbers of people  that engage in this that it's just in poor taste.

I love running this web site and there are many benefits. I will continue to do so, but seeing people use the Classifieds continually and not supporting us in return is just sad. So, you asked a question and I answered.

Scott Tichenor
Mandolin Cafe
Since 1995

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2Sharp, 

Aidan Crossey, 

Al Trujillo, 

Alan Lackey, 

AMandolin, 

belbein, 

beretta, 

Bert Deivert, 

BiggT, 

Billy Packard, 

BJ O'Day, 

Bob Bass, 

Boge Quinn, 

Brad Sicotte, 

BradKlein, 

Brian Shaw, 

Clement Barrera-Ng, 

Clyde Clevenger, 

Cochiti Don, 

Dale Ludewig, 

dang, 

dmusic, 

Ed Goist, 

Eddie_T, 

Eldon Dennis, 

esslewis, 

EvanElk, 

farmerjones, 

fredfrank, 

Gary Alter, 

Gary Hedrick, 

Gary Hudson, 

Gene Summers, 

GMorgan, 

guidoStow, 

Ignatius, 

jasona, 

jhowell, 

Jill McAuley, 

Jim B, 

Jim Rohrer, 

jim simpson, 

Joey Anchors, 

John Soper, 

Jon Hall, 

JSanta, 

jshane, 

Ken, 

kenfai, 

Kevin Briggs, 

Kevin Winn, 

LadysSolo, 

lflngpicker, 

Mando-Mauler, 

Mandobart, 

MANDOLELE, 

Mandophyte, 

Marcus CA, 

Mark Gunter, 

MichaelJW, 

Mike Knapp, 

Mike Scott, 

MikeEdgerton, 

MISTAHCOUGHDROP, 

Paul Kotapish, 

Paul Statman, 

Philippe Bony, 

Pilot70D, 

Portuguese Mando, 

poul hansen, 

Ranald, 

Randolph Millsap, 

Redd, 

Red_Label, 

rickbella, 

Robert Mitchell, 

Rod Freeland, 

RodgerF, 

Roman Pekar, 

Rosanna Lovecchio, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

Ryk Loske, 

ShaneJ, 

Sheila Lagrand, 

Skillet, 

SlowFingers, 

Spruce, 

StuartE, 

Sweetpea44, 

Tenzin, 

theCOOP, 

Timbofood, 

Tom Wright, 

tomnottom, 

Tripping Springs, 

Wayne R, 

wellvis@well.com, 

windhavn, 

yarnivore, 

Zigeuner

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## Russ Jordan

Well said, Scott, and I hope your message was well received!

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JimY, 

LKN2MYIS, 

MISTAHCOUGHDROP, 

rickbella, 

Robert Mitchell, 

RustyMadd

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## ccravens

I appreciate the sentiments expressed in this letter.

I've bought and sold and contributed to the Cafe, but I'm afraid there may have been a time when I've forgotten to give back after a sale.

I'm going to do a better job of making sure in the future.

Kudos and thanks to Scott for this excellent resource to buy and sell instruments.

 :Smile: 

You are very much appreciated!

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rickbella

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## Al Trujillo

Thank you Scott...as a potential Classified shopper I do appreciate your support and commitment to making this a great place to do business.  The best insurance is a website master who cares about his product.  Thanks again for a wonderful website and for yours (and Dan's support).

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rickbella

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## Joe Mendel

Well said Scott, the classifieds here are a great resource for which I am very grateful. You've reached out to me if I've made a mistake in my ads, or have severely undervalued an item. I appreciate the oversight you give to them. Please don't let the bad apples upset the applecart.

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rickbella

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## FLATROCK HILL

I always figured that, should the day come that I attempt to part with a mandolin, I'd advertise it here, and be happy to contribute the appropriate amount to the Cafe. Only fair. 

I did not however consider or realize that the *buyer* was expected to contribute as well. If that is the case, then I guess I'm in arrears.

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## Scott Tichenor

> I always figured that, should the day come that I attempt to part with a mandolin, I'd advertise it here, and be happy to contribute the appropriate amount to the Cafe. Only fair. 
> 
> I did not however consider or realize that the *buyer* was expected to contribute as well. If that is the case, then I guess I'm in arrears.


Buyers are not expected to contribute and nowhere is that explicitly stated to my knowledge. What I said above which may have been misinterpreted was that I don't ever want this site to get to the point where we have possession of someone's credit card in order to allow someone to reply to an ad which is what eBay and others require. They also use that as their main security feature which I can assure you does not work real well.

Buyers benefit equally from protection against sellers as a result of participation but I'm not of the opinion that's part of what we should be compensated for. That's the seller's job.

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craig.collas, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Gary Hedrick, 

Joey Anchors, 

Mando-Mauler, 

RustyMadd, 

Sheila Lagrand

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## Eric C.

> I always figured that, should the day come that I attempt to part with a mandolin, I'd advertise it here, and be happy to contribute the appropriate amount to the Cafe. Only fair. 
> 
> I did not however consider or realize that the *buyer* was expected to contribute as well. If that is the case, then I guess I'm in arrears.


I think you may have misread. The story began with a buyer asking him about something in the transaction, at which point Scott worked the issue out with the seller so that both were happy.  The failure to be considerate and toss some money the cafe's way from the seller (not buyer) led to this.

edit: Scott's on the ball today, read above!

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Ed Goist, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

rickbella

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## pops1

I have placed a couple ads here, but have not been fortunate enough to make a sale. BUT Scott has let me know when inquiring into an ad or someone inquiring to my ad that might be of concern and for me to look out. That is something no other selling place has done or will do. It is much appreciated by me, and I am sure most of the community here, what a great place this is and what a good job Scott and all do behind the scenes. I love looking at the items for sale, and have bought a few from this site. Even if I am not looking to buy, I look each day and enjoy the information I get from the forums.

Keep up the good work. k

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Billy Packard, 

Cochiti Don, 

Pilot70D, 

Rush Burkhardt

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## MikeEdgerton

As one who on a very rare occasion gets drafted into watching the classifieds be thankful for what you don't see appear. Scott and Dan go to great lengths to keep the garbage that you generally see on other sites from appearing. This is a pretty safe place and it isn't by accident. There is also a link at the top of the page to just make a contribution to the Cafe and yes, I have contributed. It's a great community.

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BiggT, 

craig.collas, 

Gary Hedrick, 

hank, 

Robert Mitchell, 

Steevarino

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## John Soper

Having bought and sold through the classified section here, I'd like to add to the chorus of kudos to Scott (and his henchman Dan) for making this a safe environment for transactions and for the excellent job that is done by all the moderators in keeping the forum an inviting, congenial place for lovers of all things mandolin!

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Paul Statman, 

Robert Mitchell

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## FLATROCK HILL

> I think you may have misread. The story began with a buyer asking him about something in the transaction, at which point Scott worked the issue out with the seller so that both were happy.  The failure to be considerate and toss some money the cafe's way from the seller (not buyer) led to this.
> 
> edit: Scott's on the ball today, read above!


Hi Eric, I did misinterpret Scott's line concerning the "protection sellers and buyers benefit from every day", as well as the part Scott already alluded to regarding not wanting to need "someone's credit card in order to allow someone to reply to an ad". 

Glad to know I'm not in arrears! :Smile:  Believe me though. I truly appreciate the fact that the sellers are screened and vetted and that buying through the Cafe Classifieds is a secure way to go. 

And truthfully, the chances of me ever selling a mandolin are pretty slim.

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## jim simpson

I have been fortunate to have sold successfully on this site. I appreciate the honor system and always contribute based on what I end up selling the item for.  I'm glad Scott addressed the issue with the individual in question, I too would find it irritating. 
Thanks for a great site dedicated to these funny little instruments we all like.

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## bluesmandolinman

Scott, there is no need to justify your actions. 
In fact what you explained should be clear to everybody even without having it said by the owner of this site.
Some people just don´t understand how to act respectfully with other people. 
Selfish "Me Myself and I" attitude is spread all over the internet. It´s not worth wasting your time explaining simple rules to those that will ( want ) not understand anyways. 
I tried to make a small donation with my sales.... at least in those cases where I didn´t lost too much in the sale already.
And I well understand your " I should get this off my chest" thoughts... I wouldn´t have tolerated such behaviour as long as you do/did.
Your place is great. Someone that doesn´t agree should move on. Period !

Thanks and regards
René

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## Tom C

I never sold anything here but was still unaware of a 2% donation. 
I don't see it in the Classifieds , or "Ad Guidelines".  The only place it is mentioned is under the "Make a donation". Maybe it appears when actually creating an ad? Curious to how folks would know unless they pressed that button.

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## Scott Tichenor

> I never sold anything here but was still unaware of a 2% donation. 
> I don't see it in the Classifieds , or "Ad Guidelines".  The only place it is mentioned is under the "Make a donation". Maybe it appears when actually creating an ad? Curious to how folks would know unless they pressed that button.


In a way you've answered your own question.

In the process of either 1) placing, 2) modifying, or 3) deleting your ad, there's a prominent link to a donation page. Upon placement of an ad the email confirmation contains an explanation of the donation process and recommended 2%. There's a Donation button on every single Classifieds page. No need for a link to the donation to be on Ad Reply specific pages. I'm sure there's someone that has placed ads that can claim they didn't know any of this, but that's also an admission you aren't reading anything on the resulting screens which is pretty much par internet use for some. But as far as a specific Classifieds guideline, no, it's not in there. Can't say I think guidelines are a good place as in my experience I'd say most people have never bothered to read them. That's just not me grousing, which I'm happy to do, it's a fact.

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bluesmandolinman

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## Jim Nollman

In my occasional (and amateur) experience of selling instruments through the Cafe classifieds, I have donated a portion of a sale to support the Cafe. 

The really good news for me and everyone else who uses this resource, is that in only one case did I not sell an instrument within a week of listing it. Let's be honest here. The Cafe classified is a better marketplace for mandolin related merchandise than any other site on the internet. Amen. We all need to praise this impeccably administered marketplace. 

The Cafe is hardly acting subtlely when it requests a donation. Every seller, knows that the Cafe wants a donation. It is also made quite obvious that these donations are used entirely to support the website. By contrast, not supporting the classifieds means not supporting the website, which means not supporting the community of which every seller is a member with all perks and responsibilities. Anyone who doesn't understand that linkage is proactively keeping his eyes closed. 

If I may make an analogy. This classifieds issue reminds me a lot of a plumber in my neighborhood association who flatly refuses to join neighborhood efforts to repair neighborhood infrastructure, including plumbing issues. Nonetheless, he gets to use our water system and our neighborhood  road, no matter what he does to avoid community.

You can skirt around the real issue as long as you like. And while I salute our administrator for always being gentlemanly in his conclusions, I prefer to call this action for what it is. Any person who does not support a community of which he or she is a member, and yet who benefits financially of the community's limited resources, is acting unethically.  :Mandosmiley:

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## CarlM

To add one more thing, which I hope is appropriate here, the level of moderation on the site and swiftly containing any conflict or controversy is hugely appreciated.  Those of us who were Flatpick-L users saw a wonderful resource, with many prominent guitar and mandolin players contributing, completely destroyed when a political-religious debate got completely out of hand and personal before the moderators were able to get to it and shut it off.  One thing lead to another and sadly very few people participate any more.  Scott's and the other moderators work at containing any hint of that sort of stuff is invaluable.

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DougC, 

Ryk Loske

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## thistle3585

Thanks Scott.  This is truly an incredible resource.  Honestly, I don't read any of the fine print as I run through the listing process, but that's only because its the cafe and I trust this site more than any other.  Scott once helped me resolve something with my personal website several years back and I didn't hesitate to send him my username and password so he could log on to my ISP account.  I didn't realize the suggested donation was 2%.  I actually thought it was more and was feeling bad that I hadn't kept up my end so I checked my paypal  history  and I seem to be on par for sales at 2% but its not enough for usage.  I think he deserves a bit more.  Thanks for the reminder and will be more diligent in the future.  I don't think there is anything wrong with these "reminders" every once in a while.

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## bluesmandolinman

> Not to support a community of which one is a member, and especially if one draws constantly and professionally of this community's limited resources, is acting unethically.


Well Said ! :Cool:

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lflngpicker

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## Br1ck

Unfortunately, those acting unethically really don't care.

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## sblock

> Unfortunately, those acting unethically really don't care.


No, I wouldn't be too quick to jump to such a cynical conclusion.  The truth is that most folks act, more often than not, without complete awareness, and some of their actions can be considered "unethical" from time to time (depends on your perspective).  But don't assume that all these folks just don't care.  In fact, Scott T's message is a useful reminder, and it's very clearly directed at those folks who probably DO CARE, but may not have made a contribution, for one reason or another. I'm sure it will reap some positive benefits.

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Mandoplumb

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## Austin Bob

Scott, I have a related question. Is there a way to donate a buck for a $40 sale, and NOT get a sticker? 

I have several, and I'm not really a sticker guy. It seems like buy the the time you mail me a sticker, you've lost at least half of the donation.

Perhaps you could default to sending a sticker, unless I put a checkmark in a box, or something like that.

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## Scott Tichenor

> Scott, I have a related question. Is there a way to donate a buck for a $40 sale, and NOT get a sticker? 
> 
> I have several, and I'm not really a sticker guy. It seems like buy the the time you mail me a sticker, you've lost at least half of the donation.
> 
> Perhaps you could default to sending a sticker, unless I put a checkmark in a box, or something like that.


I don't automatically send stickers with a donation. I check and see if they've made a donation in the past 6-9 months and if so send a thanks only. Sometimes I'll ask if they need any. I do have people that send a $1.00 donation to get a sticker at times. Prefer they don't. PayPal takes .33 cents, stamp is .47 cents, stickers cost us about .25 cents each, envelopes. After 21 years on the web we don't need the exposure that bad.

Also, I'm really not concerned about the cost to send some stickers. That's an issue that's peanuts compared to people that have sold over a quarter of a million dollars of instruments over the years and haven't donated a single penny. That's what really irks me. There are several.

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## Bruce Cech

I have sold a few small things and made one very good trade. Because they were small sales I never thought to make a donation, which would have been only pennies in each case. However, I will make a catch up donation after the first of the month and be happy to do it.  Sometimes a letter such as this can inspire.

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## Glassweb

Scott, please excuse me if this has already been covered, but I still see the word "free" in regards to the classifieds and perhaps it's time to clarify The Cafe's position in regards to what's "free" and what isn't. There are many pro dealers and also "non-pro" dealers that use the classifieds constantly. I understand that some of the pro dealers also advertise on your site, but for the non-pro, "home-grown" variety perhaps you should just charge a fee. Maybe not. I just think what was once called "the free classifieds" should perhaps lose the "free". It might save some headaches, misunderstandings, etc...

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## Denny Gies

Good for you, Scott.

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## Pjones3

Such a great message Scott.  
As soon as I hit send I'm headed to the donation button to send some money your way just to help cover for the deadbeat(s) who fail to do so.  This has been a great site for me and I really want it to stay just the way it is.

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## Scott Tichenor

> Scott, please excuse me if this has already been covered, but I still see the word "free" in regards to the classifieds and perhaps it's time to clarify The Cafe's position in regards to what's "free" and what isn't. There are many pro dealers and also "non-pro" dealers that use the classifieds constantly. I understand that some of the pro dealers also advertise on your site, but for the non-pro, "home-grown" variety perhaps you should just charge a fee. Maybe not. I just think what was once called "the free classifieds" should perhaps lose the "free". It might save some headaches, misunderstandings, etc...


Free does not appear on the home page. 
Free does not appear on the ad submission page.
Free does not appear in Replies sent to ad users.
Free does not appear in emails sent to those placing new ads.
Free does not appear in my opening post in this thread. 
Free does not appear in the posting guidelines. 

The only place I know of is where we state anything like that is the statement "Like to make sure this resource stays free?" next to donate buttons. Are you confused that means you shouldn't pay for all those ads you've placed when you make a sale? If you're just buying, I'm fine. If you're selling and I'm lining your pockets and you don't support us, what's to clarify, really? Everything I've said has been  clearly stated. There's no problem here other than people too cheap to be a part of the what's asked and is fair. I'll take it you mean well, though I could be wrong, but that's an unfortunate and clumsy statement on your part. That or you just didn't read anything else I've already clearly stated above.

So that you aren't further confused, I'll edit that statement appropriately.

EDIT: there, no more confusion, edited out! Good grief. That's certainly a stretch. The only way you would know it was there was because you've placed enough ads.

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lflngpicker

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## David Kennedy

This whole thread reminds me of my local pub. I live in a very small town in Australia and we have one pub. On Christmas Day the pub puts on free drinks for the locals for a couple of hours. One family turns up every Christmas Day for the free drinks but you never see them in the pub on any other day of the year.
So well said Scott. I can sense from your posts that this is something you *really* needed to get off your chest.

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## Pete Braccio

Just sad that you had to even post this. Even more so that there are repeat offenders for big ticket items.

Grifters are gonna grift.

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## lgibjones

The classifieds on this site are unbeatable.  Thanks for the work you put in on the site.

----------

lflngpicker, 

mrmando

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## brunello97

Thanks, Scott!  That's all I can really think of to add.

Mick

----------

mrmando

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## LadysSolo

I am glad to know this. I was planning to sell a few small items in the next few months, and I had planned to make a donation, but am glad for the guidelines as to amount. I am happy to support this site!

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## lflngpicker

Scott, Thank you for letting us know what it is like to make all this happen for so many people.  I am really appreciative of the chance to learn more about what time and work is involved, although I can only imagine it is a great deal of volunteer time and responsibility.

I have been very fortunate to gain a few wonderful instruments to learn and grow with, and also the opportunity to sell to others.  This community is a great place and we are fortunate to have your leadership and oversight.  

Your words made sense and I promise to take them to heart, as I have tried my best to do in the past. However, I can always improve.  Your supporter and friend,  Dan

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## Bill McCall

If donating is not required, then it's not required and really, you shouldn't be surprised that some choose to not volunteer money.  It fits their business model, but not yours.

I'm surprised you let the practice continue beyond some $ threshold since it bothers you so.  I would change the rules or let go of the frustration because it certainly won't do you any good.

Assuming uniform goodwill from strangers on the Internet may not be a uniformly satisfying long term practice.

Realize I'm trying to support you here in whatever choice you make.  Good luck

----------

Jeroen

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## dang

> If donating is not required, then it's not required and really, you shouldn't be surprised that some choose to not volunteer money.  It fits their business model, but not yours.
> 
> I'm surprised you let the practice continue beyond some $ threshold since it bothers you so.  I would change the rules or let go of the frustration because it certainly won't do you any good.
> 
> Assuming uniform goodwill from strangers on the Internet may not be a uniformly satisfying long term practice.
> 
> Realize I'm trying to support you here in whatever choice you make.  Good luck


I can't speak for Scott, and he doesn't need me to, but please re read his posts.  I believe in his statements he specified frequent users and, essentially, participants in this community that are using it to help make their living. 

"Goodwill from strangers" is NOT what he is asking for.

I guess if the advertiser doesn't specify they are a cafe supporter, or willing to donate a portion of the sale, we in the community need to stop supporting them, if we want to keep the 'cafe the way it is...

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## Mike Knapp

Thanks for educating me, Scott; I didn't know that a small donation is encouraged when selling an item in the classifieds (although I'm sure the suggestion is tactfully made somewhere in the Cafe's pages). I'm glad you raised this issue, I've learned a little something as a result; and I hope you feel a little better now that you've cleared the air. I'd also like to say good job, and thanks; not just for the Cafe's existence, care, and feeding, but also for being a gentleman in your dealings with us . . . even when we've peeved you off. Keep on keepin' on, Sir.

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## DougC

There could be a sliding scale for high volume sellers.  However this site by Scott and Dan is supported by a community of like minded folks who sometimes become watch dogs as well. I'm perfectly happy so share gossip about 'slacker' advertisers. Just give a nod and a wink, and I'm on it.

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## Marvino

> Free does not appear on the home page. 
> Free does not appear on the ad submission page.
> Free does not appear in Replies sent to ad users.
> Free does not appear in emails sent to those placing new ads.
> Free does not appear in my opening post in this thread. 
> Free does not appear in the posting guidelines. 
> 
> The only place I know of is where we state anything like that is the statement "Like to make sure this resource stays free?" next to donate buttons. Are you confused that means you shouldn't pay for all those ads you've placed when you make a sale? If you're just buying, I'm fine. If you're selling and I'm lining your pockets and you don't support us, what's to clarify, really? Everything I've said has been  clearly stated. There's no problem here other than people too cheap to be a part of the what's asked and is fair. I'll take it you mean well, though I could be wrong, but that's an unfortunate and clumsy statement on your part. That or you just didn't read anything else I've already clearly stated above.
> 
> ...



I believe there is confusion due to the "make a donation page"  via classifieds page donation button.

At the risk of getting scolded, Glassweb is correct. It does say* "sell something on our free classifieds ?"*. Not much of a stretch actually that someone would be confused.  :Grin:

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## Scott Tichenor

> If donating is not required, then it's not required and really, you shouldn't be surprised that some choose to not volunteer money.  It fits their business model, but not yours.
> 
> I'm surprised you let the practice continue beyond some $ threshold since it bothers you so.  I would change the rules or let go of the frustration because it certainly won't do you any good.
> 
> Assuming uniform goodwill from strangers on the Internet may not be a uniformly satisfying long term practice.
> 
> Realize I'm trying to support you here in whatever choice you make.  Good luck


There's no surprise here. I am not surprised at the lack of support by a few people, some that have sold between 100K and 500K without donating a penny, yet some guy that sells a few CDs will chip in $3. Nor did I _say_ I was surprised. But I thank you for your criticism.

Perhaps you are just the web programmer I'm looking for that could install a pay-for-play system on a complicated system in Perl, MySQL on Apache so that we could charge everyone up front. You did read my previous comments, right? When can I expect you to start on this project for which, I'm sorry, I would not be able to pay you, since you think that's a legitimate response? Someone else doing work for me so I can profit--sounds cool. Lets get started.

 :Smile:

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## Scott Tichenor

> I believe there is confusion due to the "make a donation page"  via classifieds page donation button.
> 
> At the risk of getting scolded, Glassweb is correct. It does say* "sell something on our free classifieds ?"*. Not much of a stretch actually that someone would be confused.


I knew this was all my fault. Yep. Carry on. Apparently you can't discern what's right or not either. Brilliant. Maybe I'll edit that page as well so that the poor confused will not be... whatever. Or maybe I won't.

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## nickster60

I do appreciate the measures you have put in place and I donate when I sell. But I would be less than honest and blowing smoke up your posterior if I said I liked the direction the classifieds have taken. I preferred when there were more private sellers and less mega ads from the retailers. Just my opinion, carry on.

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## Marcus CA

As an occasional seller, I must say that I have always seen the request for the 2% donation --- which is less than Reverb's fee and WAY less than eBay's.  I've always made my donations the 20th-Century way: mailing in a check.  

BTW, I have never had any issue in buying or selling an instrument through the Cafe Classifieds.  I even had one instance where I bought a mandolin that had a small undisclosed crack, and the seller immediately offered me a full refund and covered the return shipping cost.

----------


## Scott Tichenor

> I do appreciate the measures you have put in place and I donate when I sell. But I would be less than honest and blowing smoke up your posterior if I said I liked the direction the classifieds have taken. I preferred when there were more private sellers and less mega ads from the retailers. Just my opinion, carry on.


I understand that opinion and get it. I don't have a problem with you saying that and have publicly addressed this several times. And by the way, this has virtually nothing to do with the discussion at hand other than derailing the conversation, but I will address it nevertheless.

The issue is that for this site to survive long-term, we had to open the Classifieds up to everyone and remove the limit on ads. No other Classified site I know of limits to individual sellers or tells retailers they can't post. eBay, Reverb, Craig's List, Hangout sites (not totally sure, don't follow close enough), gBase, dozen others. Those are our competition and we were getting killed, in danger of becoming irrelevant until we opened it up. Retailers need the support and are happy for it. When a retailer shuts down there's a huge public cry, but supporting them, well, that's not so popular. For the record, not a single retailer I'm concerned about not supporting us. Good folks pretty much to a 't'. It's all individual users, and most of them are folks that deal in a lot of very high end instruments. Those are the ones that don't support this site. Some of them have posted in this thread. Surprise.

Bottom line, if you want a place where you don't have to give a credit card up or a PayPal account that has better than industry standard safety, we're providing that. But we do ask that--what kind of stupid business model is this???--you treat others as you would like to be treated, and that means if you sell a $3,000 or $10,000 instrument you should be able to donate $60 or $100 at least. 

But as far as this b.s. that it's our fault because the word "free" appeared a few places and that supposedly we confused someone into thinking that because that word appeared next to a donate button after a suggested 2% donation that it meant you didn't have to. You can take that pile of crap and go elsewhere. I don't want your business. Sorry if that language bothers some but I've had enough.

There are mostly good people that support our efforts. Those that don't, I will not hesitate a second to tell you to move on and I promise you I will sleep well tonight and this site will continue to thrive.

----------

funkycarnivore

----------


## nickster60

No complaint thread needed,the experience has just become cumbersome.  If you run a business you know you must forge relationships to survive and thrive. The one man show's have always been the thorn in a legitimate businesses side.

----------


## Bill Clements

Selling something here is just another good reason to donate to this website.  If you enjoyed a post, learned something, or made a friend, I encourage you to support the Cafe financially. 
Scott, thank you.

----------

lflngpicker

----------


## Jordan Ramsey

> Selling something here on the Cafe is just another good reason to donate to this website.  If you enjoyed a post, learned something, or made a friend, I encourage you to pitch in.
> Scott, thank you.


Yes.  I've never sold anything on the classifieds, bought a few small things and traded a few picks.  I've done my best to donate to this site by providing information and creating tabs/transcriptions, etc.  This place has been a great resource of learning and networking for me, I'll always do my best to give back.  Thank you, Scott!  Look forward to picking a tune one day.  Cheers to a great community.

----------

Bill Clements

----------


## mcbrinitzer

Scott, thank you for all your work here. I am very grateful for this resource.  As a beginner I have posted infrequently, not yet sold anything, but I visit daily and  I have learned more than a semester of college would have offered, if it existed. Yet I haven't given it a thought until I read this post. Shame on me.  Call it willful ignorance. In political science, it is called the collective action dilemma.  A need exists and great effort is required by a few, yet the benefits are shared by all.  So free-riders are content to share in the benefits while contributing nothing to the cause. I apologize. Thank you for your letter. I will donate tomorrow.

----------


## Daily Bills

I've bought a few mandolins, a couple cases, did a trade without money involved, and advertised a few times without making a sale. (A Godsend not selling my #148 two point Nugget I was stupid enough to advertise once!) With all that BLAH BLAH, I look at the home page usually at least twice a day and many times look through the classifieds first few pages, even if it's the sixth time that day! I enjoy gaining current market knowledge and General mandolin knowledge by being able to consistently read, look at or learn something mandolin related. 

Thank you for doing what you do to keep things cool for folks like me who make turning to The Mandolin Cafe a daily routine and spreading the love for and knowledge of mandolins, etc. 

I just donated $200.00 before I posted this. I'm not posting to say, "Hey, look at me!" Rather I'm hopeful that it might inspire more to think what they'd pay to go to a movie...one time...for a couple hours, then figure how many hours of enjoyment they've gotten from this site and make a reasonable donation. AND, of course I posted it to say thank you for your hard work!

Dale Inskeep

----------

lflngpicker

----------


## Bill McCall

So, ......., my criticism is if it's free let go of it, and if it's not, charge for it.  A third answer is to follow the posting rules, where the moderators delete posts that don't meet the rules, so delete ads from the offenders.  I'm sure posts outnumber ads  by a large number so it may not be a large, additional burden.  And if that takes unaffordable technology, perhaps you're at an entrepreneurial crossroads, suffering from a lack of capital investment to keep the site as you wish.  I don't have an answer for that, except that many sites/businesses fail when they come to that junction.  Not comforting I know,but I don't have a better answer for persistent offenders.

If you don't get a flood of checks from the offenders, where does that leave you?  And if you get a flood of checks, where does that leave you?

----------


## dang

I think you are taking the responses wrong...

When you were asked if you would like to do all the programming and setup for this site to make money the answer is obvious - of course not. So why would this site do it for someone else?

This isn't about a flood of money to upgrade the site, it's about people participating in a community.

----------

George R. Lane, 

Jill McAuley

----------


## nickster60

If you have repeat offenders that refuse to donate appropriate action should be taken. 2% is a bargain compaired to Ebay or consignment. I know the thought has been to have community of like minded individuals and that donations are on the honor system. Every community has people take more than they give. Scott it is your site and you can do what you please but if it was me I would take a differant course. 
1) donations would no longer be optional. If you want to run a hobby or home business there are costs just like any other. 
2) if you don't make your donation you will be warned, second violation will end your posting privileges.

In any business there comes a time when you have to draw the line.

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

Or you could post an open letter to Classifieds use...oh, wait....

----------


## Russ Jordan

We are all different, but I for one, have never much appreciated unsolicited advice on how to run my affairs.........

----------

hank

----------


## nickster60

Most rules and policies are intstituted in a business environment because somebody took advantage of you. Running a business is very difficult. People think you sit around and tell people what to do all day. Very few ever see the 16 hour days or the months where you may not get a day off. Running a business also isn't free, you can burn through a tons money operating a business. I understand where they are coming from. I don't think most do.

----------


## Jill McAuley

> We are all different, but I for one, have never much appreciated unsolicited advice on how to run my affairs.........


Nail on the head! I had dinner last week with an acquaintance who spent the entire time telling me what I should be doing with my business. This guy has zero experience working in my field and has never run his own business before yet felt quite comfortable giving me a laundry list of things I should be doing (many of which were completely unrealistic and unrelated to the field I'm in and the one or two things that were applicable I'm already doing) I never solicited his opinion or advice but he waxed lyrical for over two hours. 

Scott doesn't need to be told how to run his business - this fantastic website and community is testament to how well he runs it.

----------

dburtnett, 

George R. Lane, 

hank, 

lflngpicker, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Ryk Loske, 

Ted Eschliman

----------


## Willie Poole

About two years ago I sold a CA bridge to a Cafe member although I did not post it in the classified section, I PMed him and he somehow took his time (5 months) paying me for it so I contacted Scott and informed him that the member should be dis barred if he failed to pay and Scott took the bull by the horns and contacted the fellow and I got my money, by doing this I did not know what the guidelines were for the 2% payment since I didn`t use the classifieds but I will promise to make a donation to the Cafe after reading this message and it is only fair since I used and took up some of Scott`s time to get it accomplished...

   I am sure all of us understand now what the selling guidelines are and that is a good thing...

    Willie

----------


## nickster60

If it was foolproof there wouldn't be an open letter and constant complaints about the same subject.You can solve the problem or you can choose not to.

----------


## fatt-dad

I've been both good and bad.  This thread will make me better.  I will say over the last 6 or 8 years, I've been mostly good.  It's possible 10 years ago, when I didn't fully understand the internet and web sites in general, my perspective was not very well developed.

I love playing the mandolin!

f-d

----------

hank, 

lflngpicker

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> ... I am sure all of us understand now what the selling guidelines are and that is a good thing...
> 
>     Willie



Ten-Four.

----------


## lflngpicker

I want to add my support again by saying, this is not complicated.  Our M.C. is not free and takes much time and hard work.  The Classified ads are a great opportunity that does not have to offered, but thanks to Scott, it is.  We should just _support it_.  If we sell something, we _in turn should give something_ that will help forward the cause.  "A word to the wise is sufficient."

----------


## Bill McCall

> I think you are taking the responses wrong...
> 
> When you were asked if you would like to do all the programming and setup for this site to make money the answer is obvious - of course not. So why would this site do it for someone else?


I'm taking the OP as frustrated with some people's behavior and suggesting means to reduce that frustration.  Perhaps that unsolicited advice is unwelcome, but it was given with the best intentions if not the best tone.  I thought by posting he was looking for responses, and if not, I'll certainly stop.  Clearly the initial post was aimed at the persistent offenders and not site users in general.

 My 'business advice' was to change the 'suggested (not required) donation (voluntary contribution) to required fee, as words have meaning, as he pointed out.  He could deny the offenders the ability to post ads.  Or don't let freeloaders bother him.  And his comment about programming I see as just another part of that frustration in that upgrading code is a time consuming, formidable task for an environment that was quite possibly started as a labor of love a long time ago and is now much more difficult.  And you may recall I suggested I support him in whichever direction he choses.

i have run my own business, worked the endless hours and days, invested heart, soul and thousands of dollars, and lost. So I see the frustration differently than many and am wishing that it doesn't eat him up.

And if it matters, and I don't think it does, I've never sold anything here.

----------

Charlieshafer, 

houseworker

----------


## Annette Siegel

Removed

----------


## Eric C.

Scott isn't looking for advice. What he did was post an open letter to those who use the Classifieds, specifically those that make tens or hundreds of THOUSANDS of dollars and don't have the courtesy to donate for the service.

He's pretty much saying to knock it off, aimed at I'm assuming the few that appear to be abusing the system.

----------

Billy Packard, 

Charlieshafer, 

hank, 

lflngpicker, 

Rodney Riley, 

Scott Tichenor

----------


## MikeEdgerton

I'm not going to speak for Scott but I'll try and put this into some perspective. The problem isn't widespread, it's concentrated into a few users that have many hundreds of ads and/or many thousands of dollars in sales with near zero contribution to the site. When Scott is called on to referee one of those sales it is understandably frustrating. The regular advertisers on this site advertise here because this is the largest mandolin site on the web by a magnitude. Those advertisers pay for the privilege of being able to get your attention. When someone chooses to simply use that same goodwill for free it can get frustrating. This is a community of people that go out of their way to help each other out and that isn't going to change but like everything on the Internet it costs money. The free services you enjoy on the web are paid for in one way or the other. Google is free, right? People pay for ad words so they come up first in a search. Gmail and Yahoo and Hotmail are free right? Your personal data is mined so you can be fed ads. You use a free service to shorten a URL? That data is sold. Nobody can maintain a large site for free, it just isn't going to happen. I'm pretty sure Scott isn't looking for suggestions on how to make folks pay for ads, he knows how to do that.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

George R. Lane, 

hank, 

lflngpicker, 

Rodney Riley

----------


## KVee

Hi - First post here - I am new to this forum.  I really appreciate this resource.  Thank you to all that make it happen.  So far, I have neither purchased nor sold items on this site, but I am very happy to support with a donation.  I have been experiencing technical difficulties making that happen and I will communicate separately to address that issue.  However, I did want to toss out an idea - perhaps on the classified page there could be a listing of sellers that donate at least 2% of their sales proceeds, thanking them for their support and maybe even encouraging participants to patronize those sellers.  I mention this only to make a positive contribution to the conversation. I am certainly not trying to tell anyone how they should conduct their business.  Thank you again!!!!

----------


## Jim Garber

Not only am I super aware of the value of the classifieds, but I think the overall site that Scott and colleagues have given us is one of the absolute gem of the Internet. Not only do I donate after a sale but whenever I recommend anyone list items in the classifieds tell them that they need to donate the recommended 2% of a successful sale. Keep up the great work, Scott, et al!!

----------

lflngpicker, 

Mike Knapp

----------


## nickster60

If the problem is limited to a small group of offenders it is also much easier to solve.

----------


## mandogene

Folks....it should be remembered that this site is not only a place to buy and sell......for me it is a great source of entertainment, knowledge, and community. I rarely feel the need to post on blogs or threads of any kind, but in this case wanted to voice my support and thanks to Scott and whoever else may be behind the scenes. A small (but heartfelt) donation has also been made to hopefully offset some of the sellers who don't quite see things the way most of us do.

----------

bigbendhiker, 

lflngpicker, 

Mike Knapp

----------


## Tom C

I think you should start a donation week like PBS does. It may give a reminder to all of us (Like myself) who do not sell things to still make a donation.

----------


## Glassweb

> Free does not appear on the home page. 
> Free does not appear on the ad submission page.
> Free does not appear in Replies sent to ad users.
> Free does not appear in emails sent to those placing new ads.
> Free does not appear in my opening post in this thread. 
> Free does not appear in the posting guidelines. 
> 
> The only place I know of is where we state anything like that is the statement "Like to make sure this resource stays free?" next to donate buttons. Are you confused that means you shouldn't pay for all those ads you've placed when you make a sale? If you're just buying, I'm fine. If you're selling and I'm lining your pockets and you don't support us, what's to clarify, really? Everything I've said has been  clearly stated. There's no problem here other than people too cheap to be a part of the what's asked and is fair. I'll take it you mean well, though I could be wrong, but that's an unfortunate and clumsy statement on your part. That or you just didn't read anything else I've already clearly stated above.
> 
> ...


the fact is Scott that i DID mean well with my post, and if you perceived what i wrote as "clumsy" then i really don't know what to say about that. i do feel however, that it didn't warrant the "personal" kind of response it received. my post was sent in good faith but, as they say, perception is everything. unless i'm mistaken i do remember sending The Cafe over the years hundreds of dollars, bottles of expensive spirits and boxes of the finest French chocolates to enjoy. The Cafe is a great service and is, indeed, enjoyed and used by many. Congratulations!

----------


## Charlieshafer

> I think you should start a donation week like PBS does. It may give a reminder to all of us (Like myself) who do not sell things to still make a donation.


Not a bad idea at all..

----------


## Mike Knapp

> Not only am I super aware of the value of the classifieds, but I think the overall site that Scott and colleagues have given us is one of the absolute gem of the Internet. Not only do I donate after a sale but whenever I recommend anyone list items in the classifieds tell them that they need to donate the recommended 2% of a successful sale. Keep up the great work, Scott, et al!!


One of the better suggestions I've heard so far. Nice!

----------


## Mike Knapp

Bazinga!

----------


## vegas

It's a real disappointment to learn some users here take no responsibility. I read the classifieds but have not placed an ad there.

I have been an administrator at other free boards and know how much time is required and how difficult it is to deal with troublesome members. For what it's worth, I have never seen another message board offer the quality and quantity of information offered here with the courtesy and thoughtfulness of its' administrators.

I hope the responsible parties clean up their acts and show appreciation for what is offered at Mandolin Cafe.

----------


## Lorenzo LaRue

I'm am appreciative and sorry that you had to present us with a sort of 'ultimatum', maybe that's a bit harsh but I understand, therefore and although personally not feeling guilty, I tossed in a few extra shekels in the pot in hopes of encouraging others to do likewise.  I love this site and check it out almost daily and have used the classifieds myself several times, and mostly remember to chip in.  Thanx Scott for your hard work.

----------


## Ron McMillan

This is quite representative of many of the longer Cafe threads. OP brings up a subject of interest, then many (admittedly not all) respondents completely ignore the essence of the OP's statement and laboriously address entirely different questions that were never asked. 

The offending parties who abuse the Classifieds by never paying back anything on tens of thousands of dollars of sales should be ashamed. The only problem, however, is that they have already shown themselves to be beyond shame.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

Bob Clark, 

Charlieshafer, 

Folkmusician.com, 

George R. Lane, 

Jill McAuley, 

Manfred Hacker, 

nickster60, 

Ryk Loske

----------


## Bob Sayers

A two percent surcharge on successful classified sales sounds entirely reasonable to me, especially considering the extra mile that Scott and Dan seem to be willing to go to resolve seller/buyer disputes.  Most dealers and auction houses charge 15 percent or more to consign and list an instrument.  I'm not knocking dealers and auction houses, as I've happily consigned quite a few instruments that way.  However, the Mandolin Cafe classifieds seem like a bargain by comparison.

----------

nickster60

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> ...The offending parties who abuse the Classifieds by never paying back anything on tens of thousands of dollars of sales should be ashamed.


In some cases it's MUCH more than tens. I'm going to guess some folks are going to have to alter their business models.

----------


## Ron McMillan

> In some cases it's MUCH more than tens. I'm going to guess some folks are going to have to alter their business models.


Even worse. That is quite despicable.

----------


## Ranger Bob

For me MC offers a relatively safe venue to look for, sell and trade arguably rather expensive stuff -- mandolins, etc. Most of the folks here are "regulars" and I have found MC to be quite good at self-policing and I think Scott does a great job of keeping it that way. Most everything bought here is an act of hope (hoping to get what the ad described) and everyone I have had the pleasure of dealing with has lived up to my hopes.  I think that is testimony to the administration of the site and the people who use it. I don't get that feeling with any of the other sites and I think that is worth something.

----------


## multidon

One point that hasn't been brought up is that you need not be a member of Mandolin Cafe to place a classified ad. So to those who think that it is more desirable to buy from a seller there because we Cafe members are such an upstanding bunch, they are not registered members unless they state that in their ad (assuming they tell the truth). 

Other online forums that I belong to (for dulcimers, fiddles, and ukuleles) require registered membership to place a classified ad. It seems like this keeps out businesses per se and they are mostly individual sellers. I have had successful transactions on those but of course they don't have anything close to the bells and whistles we have here and as far as administrator oversight, protection, and involvement, I would speculate little to none. 

I am not suggesting that Scott should go members only on the ads. As pointed out above, the purpose of his letter was not to solicit suggestions for improvement. I am just saying that those who buy here need to do so with eyes open. Sellers may be individuals, and business are supposed to disclose that they are businesses, but it is possible (certain, actually) that some sellers are de facto "businesses" in disguise. 

This confirms a theory that I have had for some time for life in general. If you set up a system, any system of any type, no matter how carefully thought out, there will always be somebody who will figure out where the loopholes are, and there are always loopholes. You can never eliminate those who are jazzing the system, all you can hope for is to keep them at a minimum.

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> This is quite representative of many of the longer Cafe threads. OP brings up a subject of interest, then many (admittedly not all) respondents completely ignore the essence of the OP's statement and laboriously address entirely different questions that were never asked.


You have a point Ron. By now though, I'd say the issue Scott raised has been addressed and is understood by most of those who've read it. There are a few tangential subjects that arise and might not necessarily deserve beginning a new thread. I'd like to address one of those 'side issues' if I may, without starting a new thread. 

I have no doubt that there are unscrupulous dirt-bags who have made tidy profits buying and selling on this site without kicking in their fair share. Ideally (to my way of thinking), the payment for the use of this site would reflect those _profits_. 

What I'm driving at is this. There is a thread running concurrently to this one, that is following someone's quest to find his ultimate mandolin. If he buys (loves, posts pictures and videos of, falls out of love), then uses this site to sell a $2000.00 instrument for no profit, he owes 2% or $40.00. Seems fair to me. 

If that same guy buys (loves, posts pictures and videos of, falls out of love), then sells a $20,000.00 instrument at zero profit, he now should pay $400.00? That, to me seems a bit skewed. Or is this a case of 'If he can afford that kind of big-dollar instrument, he can afford to pay the associated costs'?  

I don't know the answer. As I said before though, it seems like those who are using this site as a business tool and profiting by it, should be ponying up a percentage in support money. Other times, a flat fee might be more appropriate. It's just too bad that there are those who don't 'honor' the 'honor system'.

----------


## Willie Poole

If it a music shop/store that is selling a mandolin then I believe the 2% should be figured on the profit that they are making on the sale, not on the total price, some of you may dis agree but that is what I feel...I know some dealers sell for a high dollar sale and probably don`t add the 2% on to he sale price, and I wonder how many even know the guidelines to start with...The amount us small guys sell for isn`t so much that it would break us to send in the 2%......

   Edited....sorry the above message was being sent same time as mine...

----------

FLATROCK HILL, 

George R. Lane

----------


## Canoedad

> If it a music shop/store that is selling a mandolin then I believe the 2% should be figured on the profit that they are making on the sale, not on the total price, some of you may dis agree but that is what I feel...I know some dealers sell for a high dollar sale and probably don`t add the 2% on to he sale price, and I wonder how many even know the guidelines to start with...The amount us small guys sell for isn`t so much that it would break us to send in the 2%......


Two percent on the _profit?_ To me that's not correct and is not what is being suggested/recommended by The Landlord.   Does Scott and Co. put in any less time and effort into helping people move merchandise around for deals that involve no profit for the seller?

----------

Franc Homier Lieu

----------


## Jeff Mando

> If he buys (loves, posts pictures and videos of, falls out of love), then uses this site to sell a $2000.00 instrument for no profit, he owes 2% or $40.00. Seems fair to me. 
> 
> If that same guy buys (loves, posts pictures and videos of, falls out of love), then sells a $20,000.00 instrument at zero profit, he now should pay $400.00? That, to me seems a bit skewed. Or is this a case of 'If he can afford that kind of big-dollar instrument, he can afford to pay the associated costs'?


Just my opinion, but there seems to be a confusion about profit vs cost of advertising.  Nobody is "entitled" to a profit.  Nor is it more "noble" to buy and sell while searching for your dream instrument than it is to buy and sell while running an instrument business.  It is exactly the same -- if he used this site to find his buyer.  There is an old expression that states, "that's just the cost of doing business."  Or maybe, "there's no free lunch!"  There is no guarantee that you can buy a $20K mandolin and use it for a few weeks and get ALL of your money back.  That doesn't make any more sense than thinking you can buy one, use it for a few weeks and make a profit on it.  $400 is the "price" of having that luxury to decide, in this particular case.

Using that same hypothetical $20K instrument as an example, the associated fees on eBay would be approximately 14 percent (11% final value fee plus 3% Paypal fee) or $2800.  So, you can see the 2% suggested by MC Classifieds is actually quite a bargain, compared to the going rate.  And you have the advantage of a mandolin specific audience here.

Great job, Scott!  I've never bought or sold here, but I hope to someday.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

bigbendhiker, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Franc Homier Lieu, 

funkycarnivore, 

Jill McAuley, 

sblock

----------


## pops1

If you are selling a $20,000 instrument and have to buy ads that reach enough people to actually sell this instrument you most likely will spend much more than $400 and reach a much smaller audience of people not interested in an instrument of that price range. It doesn't seem like too much for the pleasure of owning such an instrument for whatever time it has been owned. If you were to consign it, it would cost you $4,000 for the safe transaction and advertising a store gives you. I don't hear anyone complaining of the cost of shipping an instrument back that you might not like. If you are insuring a $20,000 instrument shipping and insurance would eat most of that. It is the cost of actually getting the instrument sold and safely, with few hassles.

----------

Franc Homier Lieu

----------


## Br1ck

Some other sites I frequent have a separate classifieds section for dealers. That way, if you are looking for a new instrument from a dealer, you can go to the dealer site. I'd be fried too if I knew of $100,000 in sales with no support. I'd also like to know who not to buy from, but it is obvious you don't want to go there, correctly so. Since web sites are not a democratic entity, perhaps, after due warning, you can just edit out adds as you see fit.  It will be interesting to see if any behavior is modified.

Also problematic, when businesses have their own online stores, how would one determine if a sale was even made? So really, the honor system is the best way to go.

----------


## Matt

You tell 'em Scott!

I doubt there is anyone frequenting this site that has not lost something they love. People, retailers, restaurants, writers, movie and TV entertainers, you name it. This website is something thousands of us visit frequently and we should appreciate it AND support it by not taking it for granted.

----------

Jill McAuley, 

vegas

----------


## Austin Bob

> Just my opinion, but there seems to be a confusion about profit vs cost of advertising.  Nobody is "entitled" to a profit.  Nor is it more "noble" to buy and sell while searching for your dream instrument than it is to buy and sell while running an instrument business.  It is exactly the same -- if he used this site to find his buyer.  There is an old expression that states, "that's just the cost of doing business."  Or maybe, "there's no free lunch!"  There is no guarantee that you can buy a $20K mandolin and use it for a few weeks and get ALL of your money back.  That doesn't make any more sense than thinking you can buy one, use it for a few weeks and make a profit on it.  $400 is the "price" of having that luxury to decide, in this particular case.
> 
> Using that same hypothetical $20K instrument as an example, the associated fees on eBay would be approximately 14 percent (11% final value fee plus 3% Paypal fee) or $2800.  So, you can see the 2% suggested by MC Classifieds is actually quite a bargain, compared to the going rate.  And you have the advantage of a mandolin specific audience here.
> 
> Great job, Scott!  I've never bought or sold here, but I hope to someday.


Well said. There's an old business axiom that those who don't believe in paying for advertising will usually go out of business, then have to pay for an ad to try and sell what's left.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

Billy Packard, 

Jeff Mando

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> I don't know the answer.





> Nobody is "entitled" to a profit.  Nor is it more "noble" to buy and sell while searching for your dream instrument than it is to buy and sell while running an instrument business.


Okay...That's why I asked.

----------

Jeff Mando

----------


## yankees1

Time to lock the thread !  :Smile:

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> In some cases it's MUCH more than tens. I'm going to guess some folks are going to have to alter their business models.





> Even worse. That is quite despicable.


I quite agree -- despicable and outrageous too  -- I'm the kind of curmudgeonly person who just might name names.....

----------


## sblock

> You have a point Ron. By now though, I'd say the issue Scott raised has been addressed and is understood by most of those who've read it. There are a few tangential subjects that arise and might not necessarily deserve beginning a new thread. I'd like to address one of those 'side issues' if I may, without starting a new thread. 
> 
> I have no doubt that there are unscrupulous dirt-bags who have made tidy profits buying and selling on this site without kicking in their fair share. Ideally (to my way of thinking), the payment for the use of this site would reflect those _profits_. 
> 
> What I'm driving at is this. There is a thread running concurrently to this one, that is following someone's quest to find his ultimate mandolin. If he buys (loves, posts pictures and videos of, falls out of love), then uses this site to sell a $2000.00 instrument for no profit, he owes 2% or $40.00. Seems fair to me. 
> 
> If that same guy buys (loves, posts pictures and videos of, falls out of love), then sells a $20,000.00 instrument at zero profit, he now should pay $400.00? That, to me seems a bit skewed. Or is this a case of 'If he can afford that kind of big-dollar instrument, he can afford to pay the associated costs'?  
> 
> I don't know the answer. As I said before though, it seems like those who are using this site as a business tool and profiting by it, should be ponying up a percentage in support money. Other times, a flat fee might be more appropriate. It's just too bad that there are those who don't 'honor' the 'honor system'.


Well, you seem to be completely missing the point here.  The 2% requested donation is based on the SALE PRICE, not the profit. So please don't make this about something that it's not. Besides, the sale price is fairly well defined, and it's generally somewhere around the asking price in the ad, give or take a bit (things sometimes sell for less).  The "profit" is not a very well-defined quantity.  It's not really possible to define a profit (or loss) for instruments that are held for a long time, or items that are traded, or items that have been received as gifts, or had work done over time, and so on.  And if you sell something at a loss, how do you reckon the value of the loss? So no, selling at a loss does not exempt you from making a donation to the MC.  And why should it?  *You're using exactly the same advertising services!!*  Profit or loss are on YOU, the seller.  The MC is not responsible for your business decisions, be they good ones or bad ones!

So YES, if you churn over several expensive instruments that cost $20,000 or more within the course of a few months (based on MC ads) -- regardless of whether you make a profit or take a loss -- you _absolutely should be donating 2% of the sale cost, each time, to the MC_, according to the written guidelines.  Why is that so hard to understand?  

You should not expect a discount for being a lousy businessman in pursuit of a great mandolin by buying, then selling, one right after another, after all...

----------

Austin Bob, 

Bernie Daniel, 

bigbendhiker, 

Canoedad, 

Jill McAuley, 

NewKid, 

Ryk Loske, 

Stevo75

----------


## ccravens

If I knew that any of the brick and mortar music stores, or people in business who buy and sell instruments from their homes, (or whatever other configuration) who regularly advertise instruments on here were not contributing, I'd be inclined to not patronize their business any further.

Matter of fact, they could count on it.

Scott's certainly a great guy for doing all of this on the honor system, but it may be time to just start charging 2% of every sale. The details would be tricky, but I'd certainly consider it worth the cost of being able to advertise on this site.

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

The only people that know the details the of each sale are the Seller and the Buyer.  With shipping involved the actual transaction  - and return - can take a few weeks (and that's after a Sale has been agreed).  How do you track a Seller who links his ad to his website where the actual transaction will take place?  Or a Seller who also advertises on Ebay and that's where the transaction will take place...
It was even more confusing when people would call the phone number listed in the ad...
Scott is doing a marvelous job and he has aired his justifiable grievance of being shafted by a few LARGE Sellers who are taking advantage of free advertising and may not even be bothered tracking Sales that were generated from it.  I am sure that he will address this issue fairly, and in his own time.  Right now this outpouring of support for him (and financial contributions) will go a long way to taking the sting out of the shabby response by the ignominious few.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

sblock

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

The retail community has been very supportive of the Cafe. This has never been about them. I'm not concerned about the individual on a budget that has one mandolin and upgrades every few years. By and large those people are supportive. 

That gets us back to the subject/s of the opening post. I've had dialogue with several people that were on my list. A couple contacted me first, I contacted others, others I'm watching to see what happens. Some of them post here so they'll get to read this. This is between them and me, not outing anyone so don't ask. From the list of people I'm concerned about? I heard a few promises and two good sob stories which were anticipated. So far, the results of these conversations? A single donation that amounted to enough that I may take my wife out to dinner tonight, provided we eat at Popeye's, get the 3-piece chicken wing meal and skip the red beans and rice and sodas. With tax I'll be in the hole on that single donation.

You don't stop a speeding car going 100 mph on a dime (maybe a poor metaphor) when the driver has had their foot on the pedal for years. Only a brick wall stops them. At some point soon I'll pull the plug on a few select high volume, high dollar abusers.

Lots of talk about do this and do that and while I appreciate the gesture, I know what I'm doing and don't intend to change much. This is a great community, always has been, but it's no surprise that there are people that take advantage of a good situation. Those days will end soon, or not, it's their choice.

Probably best this conversation be allowed to die down. I don't think much is being accomplished. The opening post still says everything I want.

----------

bigbendhiker, 

Bob Clark, 

ccravens, 

Dale Ludewig, 

dang, 

Eddie Sheehy, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Folkmusician.com, 

George R. Lane, 

hank, 

Jill McAuley, 

Josh Levine, 

Ryk Loske, 

Steve-o, 

vegas

----------


## Petrus

Maybe distinguish between dealers and private party sales (like Craigslist does w/autos, iirc.)   I was going to suggest charging in advance but that gets complicated and pretty soon you're doing a mini eBay business with all the associated extra labor.

Ads that include links to dealer sites are an additional complication.  To be honest, if I see a dealer ad with a link to an external site, I'm likely to click on it to a) look at more photographs and b) see if they accept Visa/MC and have an automated ordering system, which I find more reliable than replying through the ad here and _hoping_ for a response.  I'd rather go to their store site, order through the system, badda-boom, done.  (IIRC, eBay doesn't permit external links in their listings.)   However I haven't actually purchased any instruments in this fashion so far.

----------

nickster60

----------


## Dale Ludewig

> Lots of talk about do this and do that and while I appreciate the gesture, I know what I'm doing and don't intend to change much. This is a great community, always has been, but it's no surprise that there are people that take advantage of a good situation. Those days will end soon, or not, it's their choice.
> 
> Probably best this conversation be allowed to die down. I don't think much is being accomplished. The opening post still says everything I want.


What's not to understand or continue talking about?

----------

Scott Tichenor

----------


## chuck3

I haven't used MC to buy or sell, other than to buy from MC's advertisers.  But the OP's position seems very fair to me, and I will say that if MC ran an annual campaign for modest donations from viewers, I'd contribute, as I think it's a great website.

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## Petrus

> What's not to understand or continue talking about?


Do we dare risk leaving some nit unpicked? That's just not how this place rolls.  :Cool:

----------

Billy Packard, 

Gypsy

----------


## lflngpicker

> Nail on the head! I had dinner last week with an acquaintance who spent the entire time telling me what I should be doing with my business. This guy has zero experience working in my field and has never run his own business before yet felt quite comfortable giving me a laundry list of things I should be doing (many of which were completely unrealistic and unrelated to the field I'm in and the one or two things that were applicable I'm already doing) I never solicited his opinion or advice but he waxed lyrical for over two hours. 
> 
> Scott doesn't need to be told how to run his business - this fantastic website and community is testament to how well he runs it.


Jill, I hope you enjoy your Collings Oval!  Congratulations on your mandolin.

----------

Jill McAuley

----------


## nickster60

Unless you read different points of view, your mind will eventually close, and you'll become a prisoner to a certain point of view that you'll never question. 

Just for the record owned my own business,actually more than one, sold them and retired in my early 50's.Since I am the only one who offered advice I am guessing it was directed to me.

----------


## Jill McAuley

> Unless you read different points of view, your mind will eventually close, and you'll become a prisoner to a certain point of view that you'll never question. 
> 
> Just for the record owned my own business,actually more than one, sold them and retired in my early 50's.Since I am the only one who offered advice I am guessing it was directed to me.


Um, no it wasn't directed at you - quite a few people on this thread have had snippets of advice, my comment was merely about how Scott never asked any of us for advice regarding this. If I'd wanted to comment on anything you had said I would've hit reply with quote, which I didn't. No fight to pick here mate.

----------


## Demetrius

Everyone, just be merry and obsess over mandolins...  :Mandosmiley:

----------

sgarrity

----------


## nickster60

Just a comment, not looking for a fight. 
2% of a 6 figure bill, that I would fight about.

----------


## Charlieshafer

> Just a comment, not looking for a fight. 
> 2% of a 6 figure bill, that I would fight about.


I understand what you're thinking, but humbly disagree. Ebay charges more, is fraught with fraud. Any good dealer will charge minimum 15% for consignment. Craig's List? Not a prayer. If I sell a 100k instrument and only have to pay $2000 for helping me find a qualified, knowledgable buyer who gets what high-end instruments are all about, I'm thrilled at the bargain I just got.

----------


## nickster60

Charlie you misinterpreted my comment. If someone has sold 100k and and hadn't paid their 2% I wouldn't be as gracious as Scott.

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

It's not about you, Nick.  But please feel free to have the last word.

----------

Josh Levine

----------


## nickster60

Thank You Eddie, I think I will.

----------


## Jeff Mando

"Well, I started Rock'n'Roll, so I guess I might as well finish it!"

-infamous quote by Jerry Lee Lewis when asked by Rolling Stone magazine what he thought of Guns N' Roses........

----------


## nickster60

Damn,foiled by Jeff

----------


## Charlieshafer

> Charlie you misinterpreted my comment. If someone has sold 100k and and hadn't paid their 2% I wouldn't be as gracious as Scott.


Ah! sorry for the misinterpretation, then.

----------


## Charles Johnson

I have a very expensive instrument on consignment with a well known vintage dealer. The fee for consignments over $100k is "only" 10%. The usual consignment fee at this store is 15-20%.

2% is a bargain.

Charles Johnson
Mandolin World Headquarters, Inc.

----------

Jill McAuley, 

Mandobar

----------


## mandomick

Way to go Scott! Very well spoken and better late than whenever.

----------


## Mark Kek

> I have sold a few small things and made one very good trade. Because they were small sales I never thought to make a donation, which would have been only pennies in each case. However, I will make a catch up donation after the first of the month and be happy to do it.  Sometimes a letter such as this can inspire.


I don't remember making a donation after a small sale a few years ago either, so now with my guilt out on my sleeve, I will be sure to 'catch up' too.
Actually I probably owe you just for sharing all the eye candly...the mandolin classifieds is my homepage! 
Thanks for a great mandolin world headquarters, awesome job indeed

----------


## Rob Zamites

I felt guilty. I only was trying to sell my banjo so I could try to climb out of the fiscal hole I'm in. I did just now, after reading this, donate $20. I wish I could afford more for the ad I placed, but I need to eat.

I'm sorry, and if I can get in a place where I can do more, believe me, I will. If $20 isn't sufficient, I will gladly cancel my ad and do what I can going forward. 

The MC has been a great resource for me, and I'd hate knowing that I was taking away from others.

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## JGWoods

I confess to being not very observant, also to having sold a thing or two in the classifieds. Is there a way to remind me what I sold? 

This site link sits right in the middle of my bookmarks bar because it is one of the best, most well run places on the internet. Over the years I have chipped in occasionally just to say thanks. I suspect I should do better. 

Thanks for the reminder.

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## Jim Garber

> I felt guilty. I only was trying to sell my banjo so I could try to climb out of the fiscal hole I'm in. I did just now, after reading this, donate $20. I wish I could afford more for the ad I placed, but I need to eat.


Rob: the suggested donation is 2% of the selling price. I think from the ad I saw that you did fine with your donation.

----------


## Rob Page

About 4 months ago this site helped me decide on a starter mandolin (Eastman 305).  Then while browsing the classifieds a few weeks ago I found a very cool Big Muddy and bought it.  More advice on the forums found me a great hard case for the Big Muddy (Saga Superior).  Then last week I posted my Eastman and sold it within the day.

So per this thread, I should donate 2% of the $375 I got for the mandolin I sold.  Lets see, that's a total of $7.50 for great advice on the forums, easy and trustworthy purchase of a very unique mandolin for me, and a super quick sale of my old mandolin.

Talk about bang for the buck...

Just donated $10 and worth every penny.  Keep up the great work!

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## Andy Marshall

Scott,

I love your classified service, and use it often, both to find instruments, and to sell instruments. Normally, when I have something to sell, I list it simultaneously on Mandolin Cafe, eBay and Reverb. When it sells. I pull it from all sites, and pay the required commission to eBay or Reverb, or the requested commission to Mandolin Cafe, depending upon which site got me the sale. So, often, when I remove a listing, it is because it sold on a different site. Is this acceptable practice, in your eyes? I greatly value your service, and want to be certain that I am playing by the rules, and remain one of the "good guys".

Many thanks!

- Andy Marshall

----------


## Lord of the Badgers

I have never managed to sell via the café, but I hold my hand up to not fully realising about the donation. 
I'm so very glad I read this because I love this place and don't want to be seen to be taking advantage of it. Thank you Scott

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

> Scott,
> 
> I love your classified service, and use it often, both to find instruments, and to sell instruments. Normally, when I have something to sell, I list it simultaneously on Mandolin Cafe, eBay and Reverb. When it sells. I pull it from all sites, and pay the required commission to eBay or Reverb, or the requested commission to Mandolin Cafe, depending upon which site got me the sale. So, often, when I remove a listing, it is because it sold on a different site. Is this acceptable practice, in your eyes? I greatly value your service, and want to be certain that I am playing by the rules, and remain one of the "good guys".
> 
> Many thanks!
> 
> - Andy Marshall


Andy, you are not the problem.

My greatest concern is a handful of users that have been showing up month after month, year after year, and are now moving toward decade after decade with multiple hundreds of ad listings (thousands if you count old email addresses), hundreds of replies they've made to ads--and most mind boggling--multiples thousands of replies to their ads (cha-ching) and have never bothered to contribute a single penny, yet they see the suggested 2% donation every time they place, modify or remove an ad.

It's not difficult to discern who engages in this. I'm not out keeping daily tabs on every transaction trying to decide if an ad was removed because it sold somewhere else. There's not enough time for that level of attention.

I'd love to publicly recount the one story of the greatest abuser in the history of the Mandolin Cafe Classifieds, but won't. It's so far beyond mind boggling. That individual was ultimately showed the door due to their usual attempt to game me once they'd been singled out--didn't work. They took their business to Reverb with their 3.5% fee within the hour. My only regret, the door didn't hit their rear end hard enough on the way out.

----------


## JFDilmando

Scott, I certainly would encourage you to strongly suggest to these folks that you have a handle on that they are on "probation".  That you have given the slack, they have not responded by doing the right thing, and only have the transactions in front of them to put things right.  You have the technology to understand who they are and what is going on, and you have the technology to prohibit them from abusing, rather than using.

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## MandoAblyss

Scott, might be hard to code, but how about an "honor roll" that appears next to a seller's ID when a new classified is posted? This would somehow signify how many times the seller had made a contribution following prior (successful) sales. I think carrots work better than sticks in a voluntary forum. Also, I do believe within the forum we strive to recognize and do business with members in good standing, and a notation of honor would help us in that endeavor.

Many other ways to implement this, perhaps the periodically-renewed designation "Supporting Member" under one's ID in any post.

You have no way of knowing if a sale is concluded off the forum for a multiply-listed item, but you certainly do know if a seller sends you a contribution. Public recognition within the forum might make that seller someone I prefer to do business with, given alternatives. Finally, that designation is earned only by successful sellers, and that is also valuable information when considering a deal.

----------


## aircooled

Scott, I agree with your view, especially from the entrepreneurial POV; there's no free lunch.

However, as a minor user of the classifieds [~6-8 transactions over 10 years, all satisfactory, not in the least part because of your diligence.] I would encourage an amateur class and a pro class, defined by uses per mo/year. Charge the pros, you know who they are, up front and let the minor players have their perk...I come to your site several time/day and I use the ads, and that gathers up clicks which you likely get compensated for, right?

----------


## Scott Tichenor

Thank you for your suggestions, but please read the previous comments before posting further. I'm on record several times now stating I am NOT looking, asking, nor interested in advice on how to run my business. The greatest issue has already been stated. It is easier to simply part ways with some long-time users that have been riding the free wave than by implementing some type of complicated system I have virtually no desire in and which would punish the greater community at large.

----------


## Scott L

I realize this thread probably should have already died and been buried long ago, but thought I'd chime in anyway.  I've got 3 instruments I plan on selling in the near future.  I figured I'd probably post them here in the classifieds, which is where I originally bought 2 of them.  Just to check out what the cost would be to put all 3 on consignment and avoid the hassle of selling myself, I called a well-known and respected Northern California shop to ask what the consignment fee would be.  To my surprise, I was quoted a whopping 25%.  2 of the instruments should sell for around $3000 each, so that's $750 per instrument.  Needless to say, I probably won't be going the consignment route.  Makes me so thankful for the classifieds here on the Cafe and what a bargain it is to use the service.

----------

ccravens

----------


## Ausdoerrt

So now we're getting ads saying, "buyer pays the Cafe". Not sure if I should  :Laughing:  or  :Crying:

----------


## mrmando

> So now we're getting ads saying, "buyer pays the Cafe". Not sure if I should  or


You should report those ads to Scott. Buyer covering PayPal fees is probably as far as sellers should push it, methinks.

----------


## mrmando

Ah yes, here's that ad, right here: 
http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/102511#102511

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## KVee

This is absurd.  For my part, should I ever purchase an instrument through this site (which is likely), I will confirm before the transaction that the seller will pay the fee, I will confirm that the buyer has a history of paying fees (assuming a volume seller), and I will check after the transaction to make sure the fee has in fact been paid and report to the community one way or the other.  If I cant check these three boxes, there will be no deal involving me.  This is my new policy.

----------

mrmando

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

well that's 2 down...

----------


## Jill McAuley

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/102511#102511

Good god I've seen it all now - someone selling a $375 mandolin and they won't pay the *$7.50* to the Cafe themselves for the courtesy of using the Classifieds? Try that on Reverb or Ebay mate and it won't get you very far!

----------

Mike Scott

----------


## mrmando

A little math lesson: 

1. Start with the amount you need to get for your mandolin.
2. Divide that amount by 0.98. 
3. The result is the amount you need to charge.

----------

KVee, 

NewKid

----------


## pops1

This is the least expensive and most looked at site around period, well if it's not it should be.

 It is the best one and I don't doubt that at all.

----------

Jeff Mando

----------


## Petrus

> Good god I've seen it all now - someone selling a $375 mandolin and they won't pay the *$7.50* to the Cafe themselves for the courtesy of using the Classifieds? Try that on Reverb or Ebay mate and it won't get you very far!


That's unfortunate as that seems to be a nice Mid Mo at a good price.  Sad!

----------


## Bill Slovin

Thank you for this Scott.  I did buy and sell 1 mandolin on the cafe and didn't even realize that it was customary to give a portion of the proceeds to the web site.  That makes total sense and I will be making a donation in the coming weeks.  It's a wonderful place that I've been using since it first started back in the late 90s.  Thanks for creating such a great resource for all of us mando nerds.

-Bill

----------


## monk

Thanks Scott.

----------


## stevehorn

Scott, I do similar work as you and understand that really none of us can grasp the work you put into this. So for all the good support of the community as well as the not so good and even the nefarious sorts that you keep at bay.... we all owe you more than we can understand.

Historically, I think this site is one of the more notable (of all the billions). We all enjoy a remarkable effort from you and all who work with you.

----------


## jimmy powells

I make a donation twice a year to Cafe whether I list or sell or not. It's a daily pleasure for me to use the Cafe and it's just wonderful in every way and I'd be a lot poorer without my Daily Cafe visits.

Having said that, I personally think that adverts should be paid for. Even just $5 and if anyone thinks that is not on then they are living in dreamland. Time is money and I would have no issue at all in paying for classified adverts.

Scott (and Dan) have made our lives so much fuller every day so whatever they think goes in my view.

Jimmy

UK

----------

Robert Mitchell

----------


## Al 13

Bravo!

----------


## Charlie Becker

Scott...

I want to thank you for all that you do for the community of Mandolin players and string players world wide... It has been for me simply an unbelieveable resource and I'm sure for many many others as well...so let's cut to the quick...I want to donate some dough...

Charlie Becker
Portland Oregon...

----------


## jimmy powells

I couldn't agree more with Scott. Decent people do decent things and finding an outlet like the Mandolin cafe to advertise to so many  musicians is just brilliant. Taking advantage and just using it as a free load is pathetic.

I think everyone should give donations whether they advertise or not because it's not a monthly magazine at a cost. It is a daily update on what's happening workwide virtually with mandolin (and guitar) related items. I visit the cafe twice every single day and would be a poorer man without it.

Thanks as always Scott and Dan.

Jimmy Powells
Uk

----------


## sholmes

I'll say that I think this is well worded. I'm about to place my ever classified ad(s) and I hadn't yet read about the optional 2% contribution back to the site. I think it's a fine idea and should any items I post sell via Mandolin Cafe, I'll be sure to do exactly that. :D

----------


## Will Patton

Just adding a few cents here - - In the huge world of the internets there is no site comparable to the Cafe for mando-classifieds.  
If a big volume wheeler-dealer is taking advantage of what has been a labor of love for decades now, he's just breaking our covenant.  Don't do it - - contribute, dude. On the other hand, that $1.00 sticker scam - - why, you're probably up to 1's of dollars of profit by now!

----------

SternART

----------


## Chuck Leyda

As a point of order, do you just click the "make a donation" tab on the classified page or do you need to link the donation with your account?

I donated after my first sale (and have another one pending) but I'm not sure my paypal email is linked to my mandolin cafe identity.

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

> As a point of order, do you just click the "make a donation" tab on the classified page or do you need to link the donation with your account?


That's all that's necessary.

There is no type of connected relationship between the forum, Classifieds and your PayPal account.

----------

Chuck Leyda

----------


## Bert Deivert

Thank you Scott and Dan and anybody else involved in keeping this forum running! I know that you put in A LOT OF WORK that may not be noticed by some of us, but is appreciated by the majority, for sure. It is always a nice experience to buy or sell here and I make sure that I contribute when I sell, because I know the costs of running this is not free, and is a labor of love. I have bought some amazing instruments here, and it is a safe environment due to well-known musicians and excited players meeting and joining together on this forum. Where else can you end up trading your own album with David Grisman because he contacts you about a Swedish mandolin you have for sale? Support your local music store, and support the Mandolin Cafe folks! Thanks for the all the kind and generous work and contacts I have had over the years with you Scott, and with others here. all the best from Sweden, Bert

----------

Gary Hedrick, 

SternART

----------


## Folkmusician.com

> Where else can you end up trading your own album with David Grisman because he contacts you about a Swedish mandolin you have for sale?


That just brought a smile to my face. Interacting with our heroes as peers is priceless.   :Smile:

----------


## opie wan

Thank you for what you do Scott.  I've used this service once and it was great.  I love your classifieds. Well stated letter Sir!

----------


## Mgottlieb

So I really appreciate MC and the classifieds.  I bought my serious mandolin thru the classifieds, and I love it.  I occasionally will post but mostly I learn from MC.  How can I show my appreciation?

Mark

----------


## MikeEdgerton

On the top menu bar you'll see a selection that says* Donate*.

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## Mandofanatic

Scott,

I sold a mandolin a while back using the classifieds, and have used them on and off since the 90's.  I wanted to send a payment (wasn't a real expensive one), but didn't see an easy way to do so.  I was thinking I would send payment when I purchased a cap, but the system didn't allow that.  I don't like using paypal much and have no balance there....  I would be happy to send payment now, but please direct me to a way to do that.  You are the best, and MandolinCafe is the best.

Richard Bailey
aka mandofanatic@gmail.com

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

Thanks for your support. There's a link shown below on every Classifieds page, plus a separate section with a link and donate graphic in the middle of the page with every Classified screen anytime there's an ad submission, edit or delete.

----------


## Loubrava

Ya know this got me thinking it's time to donate a few bucks again not because I sold something but because I use this site a lot ! And actually got on a newbie yesterday who was looking for Free mando lessons I was polite and told him "nobody works for free" I think the majority of site users would or maybe they do donate too keep this site going but probably like me they get busy and just forget. With that said how about shooting out blast email to remind us to chip in a few bucks once or twice a year. Hopefully if you did that it wouldn't be more work for free !
Thanks for keeping this site going
Lou

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## Charlie Bernstein

The main local guitar store here charges 25%. Reverb.com charges something like 6%. Craigslist is free and not moderated, and therefore a scammers' mosh pit. Ebay forces buyers and sellers to use Paypal, another racket.

There are other sites that seem to be managed better than Craig's and are free, like TDPRI and Harmony Central. But they have access to a lot more advertising dollars than a mando-dedicated site can ever hope for - like much bigger Fender, Taylor, and Gibson bucks, for instance. 

So all things considered, at 2% for a moderated classified section, Mandolin Cafe is a sweet deal, indeed.

Your letter should have cleared the air. If it didn't, nothing will!

----------

Robert Mitchell

----------


## rjperry5

> I'm typically not one to engage in open letters to the community, but something has been gnawing at my brain for a very long time. A few days ago I was contacted by a buyer with a question regarding a transaction with a well known seller with a lot of transactions. This resulted in several hours of my time invested in resolving the situation amicably so that the sale stuck. That's my job, but I also do it without pay most of the time, and when I'm putting in hours of free time for the benefit of a seller with a history of not supporting the site or supporting it poorly that makes me very unhappy. 
> 
> The individual I dealt with expressed surprise in my tone of voice. He was right. This has been building for a long time and rather than shooting a dart at one person I thought more therapeutic to share that email here composed to no specific name. So allow me to engage in a bit of therapy, and I do need to get this off my chest.
> 
> This is not meant to be a "roll call" for those that have contributed fairly or those that have not. Just read it and think about it. If I could be assured of that much I'd be pleased.
> 
> --------------
> 
> Dear (name removed)
> ...


Scott,
Thank you for so eloquently describing your position. In support of Mandolin Cafe's excellent service, I've successfully posted Classified Ads on Mandolin Cafe, am very grateful for the service you provide and have gladly paid for it. It's worth every dime of the portion you rightly deserve. Unfortunately, there are always those who mis-use, mistreat and take advantage of the good-hearted, honest souls of this world. However, I respectully disagree with your good-natured wording quoted here: "Continually dipping the hand in the cookie jar and not supporting the  site or sub-par contributing is little more than poor taste". "Poor taste" is inaccurate...call it what it is..."S-T-E-A-L-I-N-G". Perhaps it would be helpful to make your site visitors blatantly aware of the site's operational policies. I think you have every right to put it right up front in big red capital letters and find ways to make it tougher for the bad guys to mis-use the system. After all, like the bad guys, you are human, you are a fellow musician and you don't deserve that treatment. Moreover, THEY DON'T DESERVE your good service!!! 
R. Perry, Rochester NY

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Billy Packard

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## Jess L.

> ... you are a fellow musician...


And a darned *good* musician too,  :Mandosmiley:  I heard a recording somewhere last year of Scott playing. I wasn't expecting him to sound _that_ good, I had thought he just runs a website and tries to keep us rummies from straying too far out of line.  :Wink:  Turns out he plays good *and* runs a website. Cool!  :Smile:  

Not kissing up, just stating my observation. The usual NFI etc etc.

Ok, off to my corner now, since I'm off-topic (again).  :Smile:

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## double E

I have not read all this thread so what Im about to say may be in here. Im new to the cafe. I am long time banjo player and member of the Banjo Hangout for years. I have bought and sold a good amount there and have no problem with the way the donation thing works. There its 2% or $75 which ever is the less. I dont know if its a flat 2% here or not. I haven't tried to figure it out yet. Im having fun with recently finally getting me a mandolin after all these years. Love my Bluegrass!  EE

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## Mando Mo

I'd like to subscribe to the MC, also would like info on paying the 2% with each post (I haven't posted anything yet, but intend to eventually).  Finally, would like information about advertising.

Thanks!

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## Peter K

Free-loading is a rather common behaviour in people. Mandatory subscription to the Classified section might improve the site $ support situation, instead of a reliance on voluntary contributions. Only those members with a valid subscription would be allowed to post in the Classifieds. The yearly subscription amount could be something of the order of $50. Just a thought.

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## Ranald

> Free-loading is a rather common behaviour in people. Mandatory subscription to the Classified section might improve the site $ support situation, instead of a reliance on voluntary contributions. Only those members with a valid subscription would be allowed to post in the Classifieds. The yearly subscription amount could be something of the order of $50. Just a thought.


I appreciate the fact that Mandolin Cafe uses an honour system, though it doesn't always work. Many of the people selling things are amateur musicians and not commercial salespeople. I wouldn't pay a $50 annual fee, so that I could occasionally sell a music book for $20, or perhaps an instrument for $300 once in a life time. Such a charge would eliminate the use of Mandolin Cafe Classifieds as a sales place for many members. The 2% fee is better than reasonable. However, if I were sell that $20 book, and sent the 2% immediately, it would cost me more to transfer the money than the actual donation of forty cents. I make an occasional donation to the Cafe, though I haven't sold anything yet, and would include the 2% on a small item within that donation. However, if I were selling a $300 instrument, I'd be happy to send my 2% (and probably a bit extra) as soon as the transaction was complete. I thank the Cafe people for running things as they do, and will trust them to deal with "freeloaders" if this becomes a serious problem. And phooey on those who exploit the system.  :Mad:

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## AlanN

I believe it's perfectly acceptable to 'stack up' transactions, especially those under a certain sale amount, then make a donation after a few sales. That's what I do, anyway. Yes, the 2% is a downright bargain.

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## Ryk Loske

Not only is it a bargain ... it is wonderfully safe.  Scott does a phenomenal job policing the classifieds.  There's a recent thread over on the Banjo Hangout that addresses problems folks have had with both sellers and buyers that just doesn't happen here.
Thank you Scott,
Ryk

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## Mandolin Cafe

I'd like to address the previous four posts as I find something there in each that I can confirm or comment further on why things are as they are.

Yes, freeloading is still common, but has risks. There are no second chances. There are also no secrets on the internet so people should understand they are being watched. When I find someone that is not contributing but playing the game with frequency and not contributing, by the time I contact them they're gone and won't be using this resource again.

You have to remember the stance on this since launching the Classifieds in 1998 has not changed: they're a perk for visitors to this site. I enjoy providing the service and the content it provides--some use them to make their living, and I'm fine with that--but I do expect 2% in return for successful sales to ensure this site continues to operate. That said, if you're the guy that lives an 8 hour drive away from a local retailer and you're on a shoestring making one sale every 7-8 years in order to upgrade I can let that slide. There's a record of every ad, every reply, and I can pull them up in a moment's notice. I talk to far more people involved in classifieds deals than the forum. Easily 5-1. If someone is here daily or every few days working the classifieds, I'm watching. I routinely remove a small number of sellers from time to time that are clearly gaming the system, and I state up front why I've done so.

Up front subscription based use: not going to happen. This is largely a one-person operation. It works fine as it is. Strong arming by charging up front would be a guarantee for a small niche site such as this to fail. The amount of administrative work, added responsibility and programming to get into that is something I have no interest in. I'd rather spend time developing valuable content and assisting visitors and business partners. Could I make more money by doing so? I don't know and don't particularly care. Making "X" amount has never been the ultimate goal. I love what I do and rise every morning looking forward to working. How many can say that about their day job?

Stacking transactions: yes, preferred. Sending a dollar donation means PayPal is rewarded exactly one third of the amount. Donate 50 cents and the Cafe gets 19 of those after PayPal. Send a $2 donation and request stickers which I'm happy to send and I end up with about 40 cents.

Costs to operate... What, this internets thingy costs money???? What I pay for a dedicated server is larger than the mortgage payments many of you are making. Dedicated, no sharing, top of the line speed, our optimal operating system of choice. Why is this site faster and more responsive than so many others? First-rate equipment and a system administrator Facebook would love to hire, especially after yesterday, but can't. And yes, I pay him well. And I'm reminded our hosting cost just took a 50% leap due to changes where we get our access. Must be nice to call the shots on your own raises.

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Bob Clark, 

dang, 

darylcrisp, 

Doug Freeman, 

EdHanrahan, 

hank, 

JEStanek, 

Jill McAuley, 

LadysSolo, 

mandoglobal, 

oliverkollar, 

Phil Goodson, 

pit lenz, 

pops1, 

Ranald, 

Russ Donahue, 

soliver, 

Tom Wright

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## JonZ

That’s all rather vague.
What’s your net profit each year?

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## kurth83

From what I can glean on the Paypal site, Paypal takes 2.9% + 30cent transaction fee.  So a $1 donation doesn't leave much, but a $10 donation fares much better.  Hence the encouragement for stacking.

So, estimating a bit here, if I sell a mandolin for $300, that's a $6 donation, about $5.50 of which gets through.  Yes?

Sadly, that means Paypal gets more of each sale than MC does, if the purchase also went through paypal.

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## mrmando

> That’s all rather vague.
> What’s your net profit each year?


I'm sure we'd all _love_ to know that, but I'm equally sure it's none of our business. 

PayPal does have an option that allows users to avoid fees for certain types of transactions, but that might create other headaches for Scott, since I don't think donations to the site would count as that type of transaction.

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## Bill Clements

> Donations for our efforts by check can be mailed to the address below.
> 
> Mandolin Cafe
> 1100 New Jersey St.
> Lawrence, KS 66044-3354


Scott, if more of us donate using this method, would that help your bottom line without causing too much grief?
My check will be in the mail tomorrow.   :Wink:

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hank

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## pops1

> Scott, if more of us donate using this method, would that help your bottom line without causing too much grief?
> My check will be in the mail tomorrow.


That's the way I did it, send a check nothing lost.

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Bill Clements

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## Mandolin Cafe

A donation is just that, the method doesn't matter. I admit to tiring at seeing how well PayPal pays itself for smaller donations but that's just the way it is.

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## Tom Sanderson

Scott,
What is the best way to donate that cuts out the middle man?  If it is sending you a check in the mail the old fashion way, I’d be happy to do that. Recently I posted an ad in the wanted section for a Kentucky tailpiece cover. Another Cafe member replied and is sending me one free of charge including shipping. I donated one dollar via PayPal thinking that although it is a small amount, you would get one dollar, which is not even enough to cover the value of the service I received from the use of your classified ad service, but I felt that I needed to pay you something. Now I feel like I rewarded PayPal instead of you.

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## Mandolin Cafe

> Scott,
> What is the best way to donate that cuts out the middle man?  If it is sending you a check in the mail the old fashion way, I’d be happy to do that. Recently I posted an ad in the wanted section for a Kentucky tailpiece cover. Another Cafe member replied and is sending me one free of charge including shipping. I donated one dollar via PayPal thinking that although it is a small amount, you would get one dollar, which is not even enough to cover the value of the service I received from the use of your classified ad service, but I felt that I needed to pay you something. Now I feel like I rewarded PayPal instead of you.


I love PayPal, don't get me wrong. Lots of reasons to like it and use it, but a check still works best on this end. I've actually had people donate 30 cents which PayPal takes, drumroll... wait for it... 29 of those. I've had 25 cent donations, too, they take all of that.

If you want an easy window into their profit margin, lots of small sites that calculate their fees. I use this one: http://thefeecalculator.com/

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Tom Sanderson

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## Bernie Daniel

> Scott,
> What is the best way to donate that cuts out the middle man?  If it is sending you a check in the mail the old fashion way, I’d be happy to do that. Recently I posted an ad in the wanted section for a Kentucky tailpiece cover. Another Cafe member replied and is sending me one free of charge including shipping. I donated one dollar via PayPal thinking that although it is a small amount, you would get one dollar, which is not even enough to cover the value of the service I received from the use of your classified ad service, but I felt that I needed to pay you something. Now I feel like I rewarded PayPal instead of you.


I understand your intentions but why are you obsessed with "cutting out the middleman"?  If some middleman provides a service like PayPal why should they not be paid? 

I do think PayPal fees are high but if (and when) I find them excessive I will use another method of compensation.

The old USPS and personal check is the way I prefer to do business -- in most cases by the time i sell the instrument I feel that I know the person well enough that I am willing to put the instrument in the mail the day the check arrives as I believe the person is good for it. 

As noted the 2% to the MC could be paid in the same  way -- send Scott a check?

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FLATROCK HILL

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## AlanN

> I'm sure we'd all _love_ to know that


Uh...except me.

And it's rather evident that a personal check from A to B suffers no 'middle man'.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

hank

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## Stompbox

Since when do we get eBay posts in the classifieds?  I don’t recall this in the past.  How do they pay the site for sales?

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## Mandolin Cafe

> Since when do we get eBay posts in the classifieds?  I don’t recall this in the past.  How do they pay the site for sales?


Ads with links pointing to eBay have been allowed in the Classifieds since December, 2011. If you're looking for an explanation I think the best is to simply read through the posts I've made on this thread since it was created. This is a community site that has a greater purpose than satisfying stockholders and a corporate board. My intent has always been to help people that love this instrument and to allow them to find ways to have it be a positive part of their life that brings them joy. Sometimes that means allowing them to point to places that are paid whether we helped them or not. They may not have the means. Many support our efforts, some don't. Those that don't and *abuse* the system are eventually discovered, and there have been quite a few, are shown the door--permanently--and now pay fees on other sites to engage in this activity. I'm not interested in the individual's money that has one mandolin they might sell every 5 years and have kids to feed and put through school. But I also don't warn people. By the time I contact them they're already gone if it's clear they're taking advantage of the system. Best to continue this privately if you wish.

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## Stompbox

> Ads with links pointing to eBay have been allowed in the Classifieds since December, 2011. If you're looking for an explanation I think the best is to simply read through the posts I've made on this thread since it was created. This is a community site that has a greater purpose than satisfying stockholders and a corporate board. My intent has always been to help people that love this instrument and to allow them to find ways to have it be a positive part of their life that brings them joy. Sometimes that means allowing them to point to places that are paid whether we helped them or not. They may not have the means. Many support our efforts, some don't. Those that don't and *abuse* the system are eventually discovered, and there have been quite a few, are shown the door--permanently--and now pay fees on other sites to engage in this activity. I'm not interested in the individual's money that has one mandolin they might sell every 5 years and have kids to feed and put through school. But I also don't warn people. By the time I contact them they're already gone if it's clear they're taking advantage of the system. Best to continue this privately if you wish.


10-4, I just (for whatever reason) never noticed eBay sales on here before.

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## Shelagh Moore

..

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## Gus & Sophie

I have red your letter and agree. Although I do not sell anything on your site. I do place an add for services. ie. I need someone to create Mandolin tablatures from sheet music for me. I have just donated via pay pal and will continue to do so.
The mandolin cafe' is a very helpful site for me. I want to help keep it running.

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## darylcrisp

> I have red your letter and agree. Although I do not sell anything on your site. I do place an add for services. ie. I need someone to create Mandolin tablatures from sheet music for me. I have just donated via pay pal and will continue to do so.
> The mandolin cafe' is a very helpful site for me. I want to help keep it running.


Mike will do this, and he does fast and excellent. Sign up to his free monthly lessons as well. He'll even make a video for you if you need it. Check out his appearance on mandolin mondays.
https://www.mandomike.com/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=As0a-6txHAk

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## Tom R S

Hi Scott:
The workman is worthy of his labor.  I read your post about asking 2% from sales completed on your website and thought it was kind and at the same time quite searching. As for me I think it is only fair that you be remunerated 2%.  My oh my   2% does not break the bank for anyone.  I'm surprised you did not ask more.  With that said, I have a flatiron mandolin in a case  my entry level mandolin.  very NICE AND SOUNDS GREAT.  It is army navy model and made in Boseman Montana. I am thinking about selling it.  If I could acquire a buyer on your web site Ill pay you 4% of the final sale price excluding shipping. If you have the time and are interested let me know. Ill post some photos and also can meet you on face facebook live and show you the instrument. THANKS FOR READING. 
tOM r s

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## Deblues

Hi Scott,
I just sold my mandolin but before I deleted the ad I had sent you a PayPal payment.  When I deleted the ad something popped up to send you a payment for the ad but like I said I'd already sent it.  Hopefully I did it right.  Thanks, Debbie

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Mandolin Cafe

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## jimmay

> I'm typically not one to engage in open letters to the community, but something has been gnawing at my brain for a very long time. A few days ago I was contacted by a buyer with a question regarding a transaction with a well known seller with a lot of transactions. This resulted in several hours of my time invested in resolving the situation amicably so that the sale stuck. That's my job, but I also do it without pay most of the time, and when I'm putting in hours of free time for the benefit of a seller with a history of not supporting the site or supporting it poorly that makes me very unhappy. 
> 
> The individual I dealt with expressed surprise in my tone of voice. He was right. This has been building for a long time and rather than shooting a dart at one person I thought more therapeutic to share that email here composed to no specific name. So allow me to engage in a bit of therapy, and I do need to get this off my chest.
> 
> This is not meant to be a "roll call" for those that have contributed fairly or those that have not. Just read it and think about it. If I could be assured of that much I'd be pleased.
> 
> --------------
> 
> Dear (name removed)
> ...


Scott, I have been looking at your mandolin ads for several years and have posted several ads with no sales to date.  I seem to be having a problem with seeing the classified ads for  several days now.  Have you disconnected me for some reason or is it a problem with some setting on my computer.   Concerned.   jimmay

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## Mandolin Cafe

> Scott, I have been looking at your mandolin ads for several years and have posted several ads with no sales to date.  I seem to be having a problem with seeing the classified ads for  several days now.  Have you disconnected me for some reason or is it a problem with some setting on my computer.   Concerned.   jimmay


It's your firewall software stopping you from seeing ads... Sent you a reply back in response to your email.

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## BrucePHammond

Scott,

While I have not succeeded in selling any instruments in my five previous attempts, I agree entirely with the idea of supporting this site with a small percentage of any instrument sale. This remains true for anything listed here, even if it is listed elsewhere. And also if I hand deliver it to someone in my locale. Thank you for your efforts on behalf of players everywhere. Craig's list sucks. EBay sucks a little bit less than Craig's list.

----------

