# General Mandolin Topics > Jams, Workshops, Camps, Places To Meet Others >  Wintergrass

## Mandomaiden

Any Cafe members headed to Tacoma in a couple of weeks? :Mandosmiley:

----------


## mrmando

I'm going, but I'm not telling anyone about it.

----------


## mandopete

> I'm going, but I'm not telling anyone about it.


Me neither!

 :Laughing:

----------


## Spruce

88 degrees down here in Mexico with a ten-foot swell...

¿What is this thing called "Wintergrass"¿

----------


## Nolan

> 88 degrees down here in Mexico with a ten-foot swell...
> 
> ¿What is this thing called "Wintergrass"¿


How are your arms holding up?

----------


## zeke

My lips are sealed as well, and there won't be any jams in my room on the fifth floor of the Marano, and Bruce won't be there to crack open the single malt. Or will he.....?

----------


## Gail Hester

I won't be their on Friday afternoon and maybe Saturday. :Laughing:

----------


## mrmando

I won't bring my A2Z because I don't want Geoff Clarkson to look at it.

----------


## SternART

Is Wakefield on the bill?  

I'm "really" not going.......first miss for me, in like 7 years.......I'm saving up for the Mandolin Symposium......

----------


## tango_grass

Cats outta the bag.

I'm there morning, noon, night, late night, late late night, vegetable state....

Actually, I'll be working some Usher stuff for a few hours. So watch out! I rule with an Iron fist!....kinda.   :Mandosmiley:

----------


## mandopete

> night, late night, late late night, vegetable state....


Vegetable state?  Dude that's in Cali!

<sorry>

----------


## Ted Eschliman

I'm unable to go, but I am sending my own personal Clark JM there for all to covet and adore. Check it out among the other many great new instruments Austin will have on display at his booth. (New OM, too!)

----------


## mandopete

Ted - waaaay cool!

I assume that don't want us to give it the "Bill Monroe" treatment, eh?

 :Smile:

----------


## tango_grass

> Vegetable state?  Dude that's in Cali!
> 
> <sorry>


It could be anywhere at that moment in time!   :Cool: 

Nice Mando there Ted!  I'll give it a some safe love, with a few licks.  :Wink:

----------


## squirrelabama

I wont be going because I'm fearful that Martin might show me his A2Z.... actually I'm really not going... I've heard that the Moron-oh hotel has really cracked down on/revamped the jamming and hanging out policies such that it just might be about as fun as an insurance convention.....can anyone confirm these rumors? No jamming in the lobby or halls? no one allowed on any floors without a room key? That's just the beginning of the list..

----------


## Cara Z.

I'll be there all 4 days. So will that Bertoncini F5 that I have for sale.  :Grin: 

Re jamming: following lifted from Acoustic Sound's January newsletter:




> Just in case you've heard otherwise, let's set the record straight.  Jamming is happening everywhere at Wintergrass. Bring your instrument. Hook up with old friends. Meet new ones. Play tunes! Learn tunes.
> The first thing you'll notice this year is a big tent in the courtyard. Our friends at the California Bluegrass Association will be hosting late night jams and shows in the tent. Otherwise, the heated tent is yours for jamming and hanging out with friends. Umm, just in case you wondered,  no sleeping in the tent.  
> 
> Jamming in the lobby. Yes. Remember the last time you went on a hike?  Did you see the signs that asked you to stay on the trail and not trample the delicate wildflowers and tundra? The lobby is magnificent and filled with truly beautiful and delicate things. Treat it like you'd treat your favorite trail - with respect and care. Our pals at the Murano are moving out some of the most delicate things to make room for guitars, banjos and you! There will be a few lobby places where jamming will be restricted and we ask that you respectfully comply. For the most part though, you can do what you've always done.


CZ

----------


## Patrick Gunning

I'm in.  See you guys all there!

----------


## squirrelabama

Thanks Cara for the clarification on that. CBA tent sounds like a great idea.They should have started that years ago!

----------


## mrmando

Ted, will your mandolin wander around and take pictures of all the people at the festival?

----------


## mandroid

"Vegetable state? Dude, that's in Cali!" 

No it's Cauli .  :Grin: 



 :Popcorn:

----------


## mandozilla

As a native Californian I'm proud to say we're definately well known for our fruits and nuts but vegetables...not so much...Hahaha  :Laughing:  But really, I wish I could go but alas it's not meant to be cherrie... :Crying:

----------


## flatt

Well, for someone stuck in the UK, this all sounds absolutely wonderful! Sounds like the best place on earth to be at the end of this month! Enjoy!

----------


## Pete Martin

Can you imagine anyone saying Tacoma sounds like the best place in the world??? :Laughing:

----------


## tango_grass

it must be that charming Aroma....   :Wink:

----------


## mandolooter

:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Can you imagine anyone saying Tacoma sounds like the best place in the world??? 
> __________________


He must be from the UK....hahaha! :Disbelief: 
It always reminds me of Cleveland... :Grin:

----------


## Jim Nollman

totally disagree with that bad-mouthing of Tacoma. 20 years ago maybe Tacoma was a work in progress. today it is an undiscovered gem of a small American city with good restaurants and lots of pockets of great culture. Actually it has been my last two trips to Wintergrass that made me feel this way.

----------


## Gail Hester

I totally agree with Jim.

----------


## zeke

Well, I have to say, this is the first time in all the years of going where I'm not either showing instruments or gigging, and its also the first time that none of my bandmates/picking partners or tight friends are attending. So, in some respects, I have no idea what to do. So any jams, mando fun or whatnot, I'm up for. Any suggestions?

----------


## Spruce

> Any suggestions?


Mexico is _really_ nice right now, and you'll probably come out ahead money-wise...   :Wink: 

And the jammin' and music scene is really good too....

----------


## tango_grass

its getting closer.... !

ps. i like tacoma too....  :Smile:

----------


## SternART

Except for the weather I've really enjoyed Tacoma as a Wintergrass 3 day get-away. The Glass Museum is fabulous there, as is the old Train Station....now courthouse......full of Dale Chihuly installations.  The Fine Art & History museums are right there too......surrounded by good restaurants, cool old antique stores, galleries.......Tacoma has really come around, just in the 7 years I've gone to Wgrass.   Sorry to miss it this year.......lots of fine music!  And being with like minded folks, who come from all over for this event, has become like a reunion each year.

----------


## Glassweb

Chalk up Tacoma's rebirth to 2 things... Dale Chihuly and Wintergrass!

----------


## mandopete

> Mexico is _really_ nice right now, and you'll probably come out ahead money-wise


Hey Bruce - we're on opposite ends this year.  Last year I went to Mexico instead of Wintergrass.  This year I'm doing the opposite (although I went to PV in November).

Where ya at?

----------


## Spruce

Troncones near Zijuatanejo...

A nice poiont break (a left), with maybe one or two other surfers in the water...

Might have something to do with the guy who got killed by a shark down here 6 months ago....   :Disbelief: 

Ya know, someone should start a bluegrass festival at one of the large haciendas down here.  
Large fish cooking over campfires, lots of good beverages and food, and great picking weather all night long...

It would cost about what Wintergrass runs, only we'd all be in shorts all week...   :Wink: 

Hmmmmm.....

----------


## zeke

I've thought about the same thing a number of times, B, usually when in La Paz (with its natural seaport, intrn'l airport, reefs nearby, islands and unoccupied playas abounding, and of course, tacos de langosta!), but then, surfing at Bahia de Mantenchen wouldn't suck either.

----------


## craigw

I made a late decision to come up to WinterGrass again and looking forward to seeing a lot of old friends. We're arriving late Thursday afternoon and staying through Sunday Morning. I'll be bringing two of my WF-5s that are still available. Here is a pic of my #3.

----------


## craigw

Here is a shot of #6. Anybody interested in checking them out can call me on my cel: 661-809-5622.

----------


## zeke

Cool, Craig, look forward to seeing you again and picking a few tunes.

----------


## mandopete

> Ya know, someone should start a bluegrass festival at one of the large haciendas down here.  
> 
> Hmmmmm.....


Yeah, someone like Bruce!

----------


## Gail Hester

Craig, I'll be there on friday and will give you a call if I can't find you.  I'm looking forward to seeing those F5s.

----------


## craigw

Thanks Gail. Looking forward to visiting with you.

----------


## Gail Hester

Zeke, look down once in awhile and you may spot me wandering around.  I'll look up occasionally.  :Laughing:   I need to get a picture with you this time and I'll probably have a mandolin for you to check out.  If we can get our gang together we'll drag you into a jam.

----------


## flatt

Well - keep the vibrations flowing as long as you can: I plan to come over to the West Coast sometime in the summer so will be looking to pick up on those vibrations ......

----------


## craigw

Jack, you might think about coming for the Fathers Day Festival in Grass Valley, CA in mid-June. It's a great one with a terrific lineup. Check it out on: www.cbaontheweb.org

----------


## zeke

See ya'll today, folks, and I'll keep 'em peeled for you. Looking forward to great mando tasting and picking with all!

----------


## lgc

Watch out for the Alaskans.  There should be like 40 of them.

----------


## tango_grass

:Disbelief: 

40?!?!?       8 or 9 of them were creating legendary times!  I can only imagine...40??  oh my...

Well, its the day off folks....whoooppeeeee  :Mandosmiley:   :Mandosmiley:   :Mandosmiley:

----------


## ssternlight

> Well, I have to say, this is the first time in all the years of going where I'm not either showing instruments or gigging, and its also the first time that none of my bandmates/picking partners or tight friends are attending. So, in some respects, I have no idea what to do. So any jams, mando fun or whatnot, I'm up for. Any suggestions?


Nina will be there so that should keep you busy to the wee hours.  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Christopher Standridge

On my way, flu leave me be!
I will have a few at Mike's Tricopolis booth.  See eveybody there!!

----------


## uno

Incredibly disappointed I have to put in a day of work before getting down there tom night; I've been looking forward to this for months! Should be a great wknd!

A

----------


## Jonathan James

Any reports from Wintergrass??  How are the performances?  Spot any good mandolins on display?? Inquiring minds want to know...

----------


## Pete Martin

Much more lightly attended than I had thought on Friday.  The hotel is also much less friendly to the jamming scene.  Had to come home tonight so didn't see any performances...

----------


## Gail Hester

After an incredible show with Three Ring Circle, Andy Leftwich gave a few of my mandolins a go.  He is so good, just amazing.  Hes also an incredibly nice person and it was a real pleasure getting to meet and talk with him for a few minutes.

----------


## mandopete

Yes, it seems like the attendance was down this year judging by the amount of faces I saw in the crowds at the various venues.  They did add a third venue this year so that may account for a bit of that.

From a mandolin perspective I got to meet *Austin Clark* and checked out his wonderful GOM (seen here).  It was a joy to play with it's relatively short scale and smaller body depth.  A true beauty to behold and hopefully Curtis was able to buy it.  It sounded fantastic!

Thanks for the hat Austin!  If I ever get rid of the extra stuff around here you'll be hearing from me.

I also played Ted's two point, don't worry Ted, I washed my hands first  :Wink: 

It was nice to see *Fletcher Brock* and *Chris Standridge* as well.

I'm still trying to digest both of the *Mike Marshall* events - Big Trio and Choro Famoso w/Danilo Brito.  Almost too much to comprehend.  That man is on another level all together!

----------


## Jim Nollman

At Wintergrass all day on Friday. I was a bit shocked by the lack of the usual crowds. Far more old folks than young folks, which seems a function of the failing economy. Came away appreciating Tacoma even more than i said last week. I can't think of another American city, with so much art displayed openly on the streets.

I finally got to play the Iwamoto mandolin I had raved about so much on the Cafe last month. Honestly? It sounded way more unique on the mp3  at Greg Boyd's online store, than it did when I had it in my hands. It couldn't compare to two of the Webers in that same Greg Boyd booth. 

I was very impressed by Austin Clark's instruments. He seems to have developed a unique warm tone that imbues all his various shaped mandolins, and which still allows the usual pop and growl to come through in his F5s. Very hard to explain until you play it. The 2 two-points he had on display were as good as it gets.

I was blown away by two shows. The first was The Traveling McCoury's, especially when Michael Cleveland joined in as a second fiddle (if it's possible to imagine MC as second fiddle). I am not a great fan of bluegrass because, too often, it is played as if speed is the main measure to distinguish the pros from the amateurs. These guys could easily pull out the necessary speed whenever they wanted to, but they never let the notes blur together, and the musical flow and content was always exemplary. I could easily have listened to them for the entire evening. I am curious if others regard this group as the current state of the art of trad bluegrass.

The other show was Missy Raines and the New Hip. Lately I have been thinking about producing a CD of traditional tunes deconstructed via jazz harmonies. Although this band never did play any traditional tunes,  they showed me precisely how to go about it. Missy plays bass with all the cerebral physicality of Mingus. She's included a top tier jazz drummer to her lineup, plus three very young guys who have won a slew of playing contests on mando, guitar and dobro, and whom are now writing jazz and fusion tunes with melodies that reminded me a bit of Beatle compositions like "For No One" or "Things We Said Today". Imagine Weather Report played on bluegrass instruments, and you get the basic idea.

----------


## zeke

It did seem like a light crowd, and I know quite a few who didn't make it, but a good time was had by all who did.

Gail, I heard rumors you were around but never did run into you; you must've seen me coming and ducked.

On the music side, there were some very exciting bits. Had a snack with Joe Craven Thurs eve, and he says to me:"Come along, boy-0, there's a must see for us real soon". Last time he called something a "must see" was Hamilton de Holanda/M. Marshall so I've learned to listen. He took me to see Mike M again but with his new Big Trio, and they were superb! All original music (written by MM) and the young bass player (name excapes me) bowed that thing like a viola, dancing with the other two like they were born to it.

Yes, those McCourys are the top rung of trad grass. Got to play and photograph Ronnies Loar and got the whole tale of the "Nogales Loar" if anybody's interested.

I too met and jammed a bit with our Mr. Austin Clark, and was very impressed with the OM as well. I think the size is damn near perfect, and his other instruments are very fine as well. Definitely a guy to watch.

I have some pix of Fletcher Brock booth (since I got to spell him to go to a show, heh heh), and he had a drool worthy blonde F4 I would have given well to play, but it was unstrung as yet. His gear is really flawless. 

Our man Carver, Chris Standridge and I had the chance to jam a few times throughout the fest and I have a few pix of his booth as well. Who am I forgetting? Possibly a lot (sleep deprivation), but wanted to take a moment here at work and dribble what I have immediately available. Hopefully I can get the ol' G4 running tonight and get the pix sized up and what not for ya'll

----------


## tango_grass

hooray for Pete G, Chris S, and all the other mandofanatics at Wintergrass. sure was a treat.

Since I can't about anything else right now...I'll spare you the details. I think everyone knows how great, great is.  so there you have it.  Wintergrass, was great.

----------


## Pete Martin

What was everyone’s take on the venue?  I think the Murano is cold, sterile and has an unfriendly attitude to the festival crowd.  Saturday night, people were told to pack up and stop playing in the lobby areas at 2:00 am.

I hope the festival can move to a place that is more accommodating to people that attend and ultimately make the festival possible.

----------


## Willieee

I was only able to make it for Saturday night this year.  I was lucky to be present at the Rialto (great venue!) for Choro Famoso with Mike Marshall and Danilo Brito.  What a treat!  They lined their chairs up at the front of the stage and played un-mic'd!  Marshall said they wanted to play a show the way shows used to be played (or something like that) in the olden days, and they wanted everyone to really be able to hear what the instruments sound like.  What a pleasure.  It was a fantastic show.  Choro and Mike opened, then Danilo came out a played a tune or two alone, then he was slowly joined by the others as the show went on until they were all onstage by the end.  Fantastic show.  Can't say enough about it (as is obvious from this gushy post).

Also caught Michael Cleveland and his very hot, traditional band.  Michael is always excellent.  Caught about 3 tunes worth of the Bee Killers.  They were great; music was very cerebral, not as exciting as Crooked Still.  They're a very talented bunch.  We left before Darol Anger joined them onstage because we wanted to get to the Rialto in time to get a good seat for MM et al.

The crowds were light. I thought maybe the economy played a role -- this is, after all, a fairly expensive festival.  During the Steeldrivers set to close Saturday night at the pavillion, the auditorium was only about 1/3 full.  The Steeldrivers were also great, by the way.  A visual and aural feast.

I agree with Pete that the Murano was a drag. There were many people with stories about their jams getting shut down by the management, and there were lots of signs with rules:  no jamming here, no jamming there, no smiling in the elevators, etc.  (Just kidding about the last one, but it sort of felt that way.)  Also, this year you needed a key card to use the elevators at the Murano, so you had to find someone to key you up to the upper levels to go to jams.  Finding someone was not that hard, and I can understand the Murano's need for security, but this was another sign of how uptight the Murano was during Wintergrass. At about 11:45 on Saturday night, I went to the bar in the lobby of the Murano to get a coffee.  While there, I overheard some of the Murano's big security goons planning how they were going to be doing certain things in the next few minutes to limit jammers' access to the bar, or something like that. It was like over-eager cops gleefully planning to search someone.  They sounded like they were corralling an angry mob or trying to out-think clever soccer hooligans.  It was a definitely weird to hear it.

Having said all that, I should also say that the scene at the Marriott was very cool -- no apparent regulations, and jamming 24 hours was perfectly fine.  We jammed in the lobby until about 225 (when I had to split) and no one bothered us. There was a nice crowd of folks and some great pickers.  I have always like the Marriott (since it opened) more than the Sheraton/Murano anyway, since the pool and hot tub are on premises (not down the street) and the rooms are nicer and it's cheaper, so I was glad to see the Marriott so well embraced by folks this year.  It almost seemed like the Murano was trying to drive the festival away.  If so, that's sad, because the Marriott alone could not accommodate Wintergrass (even with the awesome Church and classy and hip Rialto).  Where would the festival go?  I don't know.  Seattle? That's bound to increase the costs, not decrease them, and Where Might The Festival Move To is probably a topic for a different thread.

Finally (I promise), I should add that the Wintergrass event planners did their usual stellar job of putting together a hot line-up and hosting one of the best festivals in the country. Great selection of vendors, and I was also especially impressed with Austin Clark's OM and his other mandos, especially the A-5 (red spruce top, one piece red maple back, varnish finish), which was nothing short of stellar.  I thought all the issues with the Murano were due solely to Murano management and had nothing to do with the Wintergrass event planners/personnel, etc.

----------


## billhay4

I agree with Pete. I think the new convention center would be a much better venue. Would hold everything, jamming, concerts, vendor booths, food. Not sure how the acoustics would be but couldn't be any worse than the Murano.
As for the attitude of the new owners of the Murano, it's poor to say the least.
That being said, Wintergrass has been getting less popular for the past few years. I don't think they've figured out a way to make the event friendly and make money, too. The convention center might permit a modest entry fee for hangers on. It certainly could be used to encourage food vendors to participate (the food at the Murano is just short of atrocioius). The loss of vendors, especially the funky instrument makers and sellers, is one of the greatest losses for Wintergrass.
The whole thing needs more of a outdoor festival atmosphere and less of a concert air.
IMHO.
Bill

----------


## mrmando

There was a "no instruments" area in front of the hotel bar, and Zeke told me he was asked to leave this area because he had his mandolin IN ITS CASE. 

The present relationship between the Murano and Wintergrass doesn't strike me as a long-term one. I hope there's another solution out there.

I took a bunch of electric mandolins and hung out in a vendor's booth with them. I got the range of reactions you might well expect, all the way from "That's really cool!" to "That's just wrong!" The J.L. Smith 5-string got most of the attention. Jesse Brock, among others, seemed really impressed with it. But ultimately it went home with ... me. I didn't sell anything, but had some good times. 

I was finally formally introduced to Patrice, the director of Wintergrass. (We'd met casually a couple of times before.) Here's what a fantastic person Patrice is: Twice during the weekend, she bumped into me with my arms full of gear, and both times she offered to help me carry something. How many festival directors do you know who have time to help out the sherpas who walk by?

----------


## Jim Nollman

the problem I hear being expressed here, seems unfair to the Murano. The hotel serves its customers. Hearing about a jam blasting away at 2 AM in the lobby, this potential customer feels very glad that he didn't stay at the Murano. And I'm sure the Murano is not especially  happy to learn that I could never recommend my friends stay there so long as jams are going on all day and all night. 

Lots of people paid $150 for a room there. But they are attending Wintergrass to hear the likes of Mike Marshall, and maybe browse the instruments. Jamming is not why they came. So...5 or 10 different people start calling the management trying to get them to do something about the noise level at 2 AM. Why is that so hard to understand?

Is Wintergrass unique for being hosted in the dead of winter in a big hotel? There's a good reason, after all, that most festivals of this sort are outside in nature in July. The fact is, there are probably more people who find the noise level in that lobby to be a chronic annoyance, than people who attend primarily to jam. Yes, you who like to jam, really ought to let the Wintergrass promoter know how important that is to you. Insist that they make a place for you to jam at 2 AM. But please, not at the hotel.  

Makes me consider an alternate interpretation of this argument. I am caught in a room with 6 songs being played simultaneously by 6 groups of wildly varying talent. Each song has nearly the same melody, but each is being played at different speeds, with different instrumentation. Some are being played way out of tune. Some are being played by 4 guitars all doing different parts but not in synch. Described that way, it sounds like an interrogation therapy at Abu Ghraib.

----------


## mrmando

Gimme a break, Jim. You can't hear the lobby jams from the guest rooms.

----------


## Bob Stolkin

> The fact is, there are probably more people who find the noise level in that lobby to be a chronic annoyance, than people who attend primarily to jam.


Funny, I've been going to Wintergrass for many years, and have NEVER heard anyone complain about the jamming.  Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but it's rare.  On the contrary, most people I know, non-jammers as well, think the public/lobby jamming all around is one of the main charms of Wintergrass.




> Makes me consider an alternate interpretation of this argument. I am caught in a room with 6 songs being played simultaneously by 6 groups of wildly varying talent. Each song has nearly the same melody, but each is being played at different speeds, with different instrumentation. Some are being played way out of tune. Some are being played by 4 guitars all doing different parts but not in synch. Described that way, it sounds like an interrogation therapy at Abu Ghraib.


Anyone bothered by this phenomenon might be advised to avoid bluegrass festivals altogether.

----------


## Willieee

It would be interesting to find out what percentage of Murano customers for that weekend are Wintergrass attendees.  My guess is that it is close to 100%.  It would not surprise me if the hotel informed guests who book that weekend (assuming anyone could get a room) that there is a huge festival that takes over the whole hotel.  I would be quite surprised if more than 5 or 10% of the Murano guests were non-Wintergrassers.  Maybe more like 1%, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say 5 or 10%.  My point is, was the Murano really getting a lot of guest complaints about lobby noise?  Maybe, but I bet they weren't getting too many.  Also, there are "jamming floors" (where jamming is allowed) and "quiet" floors (where it's not allowed), so there probably are also not too many guests in their rooms complaining about 3 a.m. jamming.  The Marriott also has jamming and quiet floors, and my experience in the past in booking a room at either of these hotels is that they ask you when you book whether you want to be on a jamming or quiet floor.  I stayed on the quiet floor in '07 with my wife and then-4-year-old son, and it was indeed quiet.  Bottom line is, although it is possible that the Murano's new policies were due to excessive guest complaints, I think it far more likely that they just have an uptight management who does not like all the crazy banjos and mandos howling at the moon 'til all hours in their swanky, bizarrely decorated hotel.  That is the basis for my opinion that it seemed almost as though the Murano was trying to drive the festival away.

(Okay, the comment on the decor was a gratuitous dig, I admit it. Sorry.  But that larger-than-life horse with the lampshade sticking out of his head in the lobby is like the result of some grotesque, Star Trek transporter accident involving "Molly & Tenbrooks" and "Keep Your Lamps Trimmed & Burning...")

----------


## Christopher Standridge

Regarding the horse at the end of the bar.  Last year I witnessed more than a couple of people being shooed off of the back of that monstrosity, but I don't think it just a rowdy bluegrass thing.  It is much more universal as I was told by the security that during the previous convention of needle pointers, a couple of little old ladies were told to get off the horse.
I mean what did they expect when they put a life size horse in a bar? :Confused:

----------


## Patrick Gunning

I too was baffled by the Murano management's seeming intolerance toward the festival bringing them hundreds of thousands of dollars at a time of general economic ruin for the hotel industry.  Their primary "customer" to serve during the festival is the bluegrass community.

My bet is new owners = more $$$ = better (i.e. more risk averse) lawyers.  Somebody in corporate counsel got wind of the premise of "a bunch of possibly drunk/high musicians wandering around at all hours of the night, breaking noise ordinances and fire codes willy-nilly, and wandering up and down those trip-prone stairs with expensive guitars/mandos/whatever" and decided it was a liability nightmare.  Still, I think they could have been a lot less obnoxious about it.

For the record, in the floors and rooms I was in at the Murano, and have stayed at in the past, I couldn't hear the lobby jamming.  It's pretty well-insulated in my experience.  

The security people themselves were pretty overzealous.  I had four different rent-a-cops tell my friends and I to disperse within the span of 5 minutes, well before their self-imposed curfew of 3 AM.  They had people patrolling the stairwells once every 5-10 minutes.  It was pretty ridiculous, and really was a poor representation of Wintergrass for my buddy from California I brought up for the first time.

----------


## mrmando

Hey, I enjoy glass art as much as anybody, except maybe Art, our resident glass artist. I went to Murano in 2007, and bought a way-too-expensive letter opener with a Murano glass handle, which my 2-year-old knocked off my desk and broke after I got home, but what the heck. It makes sense to have a glass art-themed hotel a short walk from the Museum of Glass. Count me as one who appreciates both grass and glass. There is no reason they can't coexist.

Years ago, when it was still a Sheraton, I remember seeing some poor schmuck in a business suit walk into a lobby full of jammers and nearly drop his briefcase in amazement. It certainly would serve the hotel to notify guests that there'll be a music festival and things might get a little crazy. 

Maybe the horse with the lampshade on his head is someone's idea of a party animal? 

Shutting down the jamming at 2 a.m. on the last night of the festival is just wrong. On Thursday or Friday night, fine ... but on Saturday the concerts don't get out until 12:30 or 1, and the jammers want to spend whatever they've got left in the tank before hitting the sack, knowing that they have to leave the next day. Lobby jams at 2 a.m. do not inconvenience anyone except the staff, and maybe the odd bar patron who isn't a festival attendee. 

I agree that the Murano seemed to be trying to protect its bar/lounge area from the jammers. The "no instrument" zone, as I've said, was right in front of the bar. Almost as if you couldn't approach the bar if you were holding an instrument. Maybe they're afraid someone would knock over the horse?

----------


## Pete Martin

Jim, I'll respectfully disagree with you.  I know a LOT of folks who come MAINLY to jam and may only go to a couple of show/workshop things.  They buy a ticket to support the event.  It is those of us who think the Murano basically sucks...

----------


## mrmando

> I mean what did they expect when they put a life size horse in a bar?


They should just give in already and replace that sucker with a mechanical bull. 

Lots of interesting art in the hotel, not just glass art. I encountered a very nice series of hand-numbered woodcut prints depicting Norse gods and goddesses ... in the men's room across from instrument check.

----------


## MandoJump

Although I have never attended wintergrass, I have been to a lot of bluegrass festivals and in my opinion, the late night jams are really one on the greatest aspects of a festival.  Many, if not MOST of the top bluegrassers around got their start from late night jams with other musicians in the festival campground, hotel lobby, etc.  If a festival goer is opposed to jamming, then it is highly suggested that you stay clear of festivals all together.

----------


## Spruce

I think that sooner or later we're all gonna realize that bluegrass festivals are--like baseball--seasonal....

I sure did...

----------


## mandopete

Uh, that being said Bruce, you gonna work on Mexi-Grass for next year?

 :Smile: 

Oh yeah - if you didn't dig the Murano there were no issues with jamming over at the Marriott.  When I cruised through there on both Friday and Saturday nights there were plenty of jamming spaces available.

In fact when I checked into the Marriott they handed me a flyer that said "Welcome to Wintergrass..." and it had a lot of useful info and stated that they welcomed the jamming (read booking advantage). That's something that the Sheraton never did.

----------


## Jim Nollman

No need to suggest, Mandojump, that i stop attending bluegrass festivals if i don't appreciate the noise. I am just trying to show an alternative side of this recent event. Like I said, (and like Spruce seems to concur) bluegrass festivals may best serve ALL their paying clientele by sticking to a summer phenomenon. If I could have heard myself better, as on a blanket in some big field, I'd have been very happy jamming with friends.

And...well, yes...do count me among those who had a good time attending this hotel-based music festival, although  primarily to hear (and meet) some inspiring performers and also closely check out the instruments on display, but not necessarily to jam in a hotel lobby where noise seems to approach Navy sonar levels.

----------


## mandopete

On another note (Bb) - Did anyone else notice Brent Truitt playing with the SteelDrivers.  I really liked his melodic mandolin playing.  I had never really heard of him before this, dude has some major props!

----------


## Christopher Standridge

Pete, 
That was one of my highlights this year of seeing the Steeldrivers in the church.  That Mr. Truitt is a very tasteful player and he sure could make that x-braced Gilchrist sing.

----------


## zeke

I'll second that, guys, he was a very nice upgrade for this show (and played melodically like he helped write the songs!).

----------


## David Zaruba

> On another note (Bb) - Did anyone else notice Brent Truitt playing with the SteelDrivers.  I really liked his melodic mandolin playing.  I had never really heard of him before this, dude has some major props!


Yes!  I enjoyed his playing a lot.  My friend in the first row said he had a Gilchrist...is was sweet sounding and his playing tasteful.  Nice stuff.  And brother can the lead singer ever belt it out..wow.

----------


## mandopete

> I'll second that, guys, he was a very nice upgrade for this show (and played melodically like he helped write the songs!).


That's what I'm talking about!  Don't get me wrong, I like what Mike Henderson did on the recording.  But the stuff that Brent Truitt was playing just fit in so right it's like it was meant to be there.  That is the definition of "melodic" playing to me.

----------


## Brady Smith

Well...was gonna stay out of it but what the heck...Huh?  I agree with Jim...Jamming has a place for sure but I prefer not to have to deal with it at a show of that caliber.  It's really not much of an issue for me as I can ignore it pretty well but the jams should have a designated place.  I typically find them to be a distraction at best but usually aren't an issue like people standing up front dancing....now that's a different story.   :Confused:

----------


## mrmando

> Well...was gonna stay out of it but what the heck...Huh?  I agree with Jim...Jamming has a place for sure but I prefer not to have to deal with it at a show of that caliber.  It's really not much of an issue for me as I can ignore it pretty well but the jams should have a designated place.


Uh ... have you _been_ to Wintergrass? Sounds as though you think the jams somehow interfere with the actual concerts.

----------


## chip

"Jamming is not why they came. So...5 or 10 different people start calling the management trying to get them to do something about the noise level at 2 AM. Why is that so hard to understand?"

Geez....That's what makes WINTERGRASS so GREAT, the JAMS! Unbelievable that someone would say that. When my wife and I first attended Wintergrass and walked through the doors to all the music, you could have lit a ballroom with our smiles and all the others. It was/is and shall be great. The Murano has it's you know what up it's you know what. They should be thrilled to have rooms booked in February, in Tacoma, in this economy. If I wanted to just go to a music event to hear some bands there's plenty of venues for that only. Geez.... :Mad:

----------


## tango_grass

> On another note (Bb) - Did anyone else notice Brent Truitt playing with the SteelDrivers.  I really liked his melodic mandolin playing.  I had never really heard of him before this, dude has some major props!


Oh dude...he is also the nicest guy too!  its amazing how many of these Bluegrassers are winning the nice guy awards..  :Wink: 
And anyrate, Brent is a great picker, and made a point to come listen to a jam at the Nechville booth for awhile after then 10:40 set Saturday night...

Also, I did not go to the Marriott, but I only hear good things about the late night jams, IE, the front desk staff was telling people to stay even though it was 7am....  :Whistling:

----------


## chip

Any thoughts on Blue Highway at Wintergrass? I haven't seen any postings yet.

----------


## KimRoulias

This was my first year at Wintergrass, and I thought it was great. The Travelin' McCourys were awesome, and Blue Highway... well, that's my favorite band--They were outstanding, like always. Shawn Lane is amazing on the mandolin. I did not know that he used a capo on Wondrous Love.... Here I had been trying to play along with the album, wondering why I couldn't get anywhere near the same sound (besides my lack of ability).  :Laughing: 

I stayed at the Murano, and it is definitely very contemporary and a little cold. Yes, what about that horse/lampshade in the lobby?  Too bad they didn't move that out when they moved out the rest of the furniture and carpeting on Tuesday night.

----------


## Pete Martin

Check out Brents playing on Randy Howards' "Survival of the Fiddlist"CD.  Wonderful stuff, I just wish Randy was still with us...

----------


## Mike Snyder

Winter is way too long a haul to go without bluegrass festivals. Out here in the hinterland, all the venues accomodate jammers. Some would prefer that it take place in designated rooms and areas, but I've not known any that shut down jams because of "noise". We've been asked to move, but never in a hostile way, and always with a reccomendation of WHERE to move to. A large percentage of paying guests are invariably going to be pickers. Rooms are sold out at the cold weather fests I go to. How else are the hotels going to fill thier beds that time of year? I've attended quite a few festivals where I never saw the stage, but I always buy my ticket. There is hardly another genre of music where so many of the consumers are participants. It does get tough when multiple jams are ongoing in a space where the sound overlaps. That's time to scout out a new (quiet) spot.

----------


## mandopete

> Shawn Lane is amazing on the mandolin. I did not know that he used a capo on Wondrous Love


Heretic, that's it...I'm never buying another Blue Highway CD, ever!

 :Smile:

----------


## Rroyd

I caught the Steeldrivers in the pavilion; I hadn't heard of them before.  I enjoyed their show, and I've got to give the guitar player/vocalist his due.  It sounded like he had about the worst case of laryngitis I've ever heard, but he sucked it up and made it through the evening, although he had to really be hurting.

----------


## Jim Nollman

Not everybody attends Wintergrass for the jamming. In fact, not everybody attends Wintergrass to hear bluegrass. Actually, if you look at the program, it is very clear that only about half the acts this year were bluegrass. New Hip, Paperboys, Mike Marshall, etc., etc. None of that is bluegrass. 

I go to Wintergrass to hear great music.  And...fault me if you must, I have a very limited attention span for bluegrass. That's not to say I can't be inspired by it, but only when it is being played by a great band. I prefer to pass on the rest of it. Jamming on 3 major chords for hours on end, is nothing I want to spend $50/day to do.

The second reason I attend, is that I am quite enamored of all things having to do with the mandolin. Living in a rural place, Wintergrass provides me with a once-a-year opportunity to hear how some of the best mandolin players in the world, are stretching the limits of our instrument. If the official program makes me choose between hearing a bluegrass mandolin player throwing off time-proven licks a mile a minute in one venue, and someone else who is inventing new music on it in another venue, I'll choose the latter every time. This year, I also got  to meet some of the best mandolin builders in the country, and hear for myself the results of high end craftsmanship.  

For those same reasons, I'll probably attend Wintergrass next year as well.

----------


## mandolooter

I always thought there was enough room for jamming and the occasional "real" show too... :Laughing: 

Of course I didn't get to make it this year...stayed home and ate :Popcorn:  cried a little and thought maybe next year!

The variety at wintergrass is what makes it a personal fav...not to mention its in the middle of winter when things are a tad slow in the festival dept in the PNW.

----------


## tango_grass

Late night jams are what makes Wintergrass great. Plenty of people I know only come because of their ability to have an all night jamming experience in the dead of winter.    
None of these jams affect shows, or vendor browsing, but add an immense amount of fun to th weekend.   I do believe most of the people paying for rooms, and bying food and drinks from the hotel probably do not like it when thy get kicked out for jamming...its kinda why they came and paid.  IMO.

What jamming that did happen was great,  :Mandosmiley:   including the serenading session for the Steeldrivers after their 11 saturday night show...they seemed to like the jamming too!   :Wink: 

Wintergrass is one of the best festivals anywhere, and to see attendance down is sad. So lets get it back up and make it as great as it can be!

----------


## Christopher Standridge

Good post Chris.  I can see that hanging around all those b@nj*s all weekend did not affect your brain too neagatively. :Laughing:

----------


## tango_grass

Yeah, well, they did.  But when I needed a moment of peace and quiet I just played your sweet Oval hole!   :Mandosmiley:

----------


## mandopete

Hey, FWIW - I will be airing my interview with The SteelDrivers on Bluegrass Ramble this Sunday.  You can tune in around 1:00PM (Pacific) after the gospel set.

KBCS Website

----------


## kyblue

I keep checking back, hoping someone has posted some pics...

Paula

----------


## tango_grass

I only have 4 pictures! I was so busy I never have time to get any.....

Pete, I'll be tuning in man!!  hopefully you had a chance to make amends with them...  :Grin:

----------


## Bob Stolkin

For the first time in several years, I was unable to attend.  After hearing a number of complaints from friends (and seeing posts here) about the Murano's change in posture, I fired an email off to the manager expressing concern.  Received this reply very quickly:

Dear Mr. Stolkin,

I am sorry to hear you were unable to attend Wintergrass this year in
Tacoma.  I also appreciate your feedback from previous years as well.

I am disappointed to hear the feedback you have received from some of
your friends.  

We have received numerous comment cards from Wintergrass attendees and
the majority of them have been very positive.  

We did receive a few comments about the change in the jamming areas.

The hotel underwent (as you are probably aware) a substantial renovation
and we are very proud of the facility.

We are trying to balance protecting the investment and our hotel with a
continued partnership and cultivating the culture that is Wintergrass.

We met with Stephen Ruffo and Patrice O'Neill prior to the event to
ensure we could balance both of our needs.

We will be meeting with them on Monday to discuss this year's events and
what we can do next year to assist both of us with continuing a great
partnership.

Once again thank you for your feedback and I hope you are able to attend
Wintergrass 2010.

Warm regards,
Mark

----------


## mandopete

Hey Mark,

Thanks for posting that.  It serves as a reminder that there are two sides (*sometimes three) to every story and that compromise is the sometimes best way to achieve success.


* Yours, mine and the federal mediator   :Smile:

----------


## tango_grass

c'mon man..its my way or the highway.....  :Wink: 

Good letter, and thanks for posting. I understand where they are coming from. on the other hand, why renovate when the bluegrassers come... :-p

----------


## Willieee

... "The hotel underwent (as you are probably aware) a substantial renovation
and we are very proud of the facility.

We are trying to balance protecting the investment and our hotel with a
continued partnership and cultivating the culture that is Wintergrass."


So d'ya think the Murano was concerned that lobby jammers' high, lonesome harmonies would shatter the glass sculptures? Is there a history of 4 a.m. jams resulting in damage to the hotel?  If so, I've never heard of it.  How the jam restrictions "protect their investment" is not altogether clear.  Ah well, I should let it rest.

----------


## mandopete

FWIW - I understand there was some damage in the lobby last year which may have prompted some of the restrictions that were in place this year.

----------


## tango_grass

I hear though the grapevine, if we keep our noses clean, and I think we all did a good job this year....things are already in motion...for the better...  :Smile:

----------


## Pete Martin

> I hear though the grapevine, if we keep our noses clean, and I think we all did a good job this year....things are already in motion...for the better...


This is great to hear, I certainly hope so.  

While I very much respect everyones opinions here, if you cut out the jamming only crowd, the festival will not get enough support to stay afloat.

I also heard about the damage caused last year.  I found out who it was, and while I will not mention names, they have been know to do this sort of thing in other places.  I will also say this damage was relatively minor and could happen in a gathering of lawyers, doctors, or political parties where someone had too many...

----------


## mrmando

Now Pete, you promised not to tell. As if the seven years' bad luck weren't enough ... 

I did notice that some of the glass pieces that were out in the lobby last year had been removed.

Have you ever witnessed the lobby jams at a lawyers' convention? Replace the banjos with amicus briefs and you'll start to get the picture. 

Anyway ... Austin Clark's mandos were fantastic (loved the octave) and so were the Carvers. I played the Giacomel at Greg Boyd's and now I know what the fuss is about.

----------


## Spruce

> I also heard about the damage caused last year.  I found out who it was, and while I will not mention names, they have been know to do this sort of thing in other places.  I will also say this damage was relatively minor and could happen in a gathering of lawyers, doctors, or political parties where someone had too many...


I had no idea Brad went to Wintergrass...   :Wink:

----------


## John Rosett

> I had no idea Brad went to Wintergrass...


I thought they said minor damage...

----------


## Spruce

Well, if it was just the M80 in the gal's toilet near the bar, who knows??

Smells like Pinky to me....   :Cool:

----------


## mandopete

> Have you ever witnessed the lobby jams at a lawyers' convention? Replace the banjos with amicus briefs and you'll start to get the picture.


Briefs or boxers?

My eyes, my eyes!

Who is Brad?

 :Smile:

----------


## mrmando

Well, I got a very interesting email from the Wintergrass promoters today, which included a long Q&A with the hotel management. I thought it went a long way toward clearing up many of the questions that have been raised. The only question I still have is whether they'll train the staff next year to know the difference between "This is a no-jamming zone" and "You can't walk through here with an instrument in its case." 

I hope the Q&A ends up on the Wintergrass blog ... it's relevant to many of the points raised in this thread, but I'm not going to paste it in here.

----------


## billhay4

As many of you know, the ax has fallen on Tacoma and Wintergrass has moved its venue to the Hyatt Regency in Bellevue, WA for next February.
I would be interested in reactions to this development.
My own reaction is that the promoters of Wintergrass never really figured out how to make money out of all the hangers on and jammers who flocked to the event each year (except the past one). Instead, they seemed to want Wintergrass to be some sort of concert.
Well, bluegrass doesn't really work that way IMHO. People like to jam and often come to events solely for that purpose. 
The history of Wintergrass is one of discouraging this desire, rather than fostering it and making money off of it. Traditional bluegrass shows charge an event admission fee. This way they make money off of everyone who walks in the door. A modest fee for Wintergrass, plus additional fees for specific concerts, would have increased their revenues.
Traditional events have food available and make money off of it. Instead, Wintergrass only had the awful and expensive hotel food. I bought or brought what I ate outside the venue.
Finally, instead of examining their model, the promoters of Wintergrass looked elsewhere for solutions to falling attendance. They brought in oddball groups. The blamed the hotel. etc.
I think the promoters of Wintergrass bear much of the responsibility for its failure. Sure, the hotel became hostile to the event, but hotels are a dime a dozen as the switch to Bellevue proves. 
In fact, Tacoma has a venue that is much superior to the hotel anyway, and that is the new convention center. ALL of the concerts could have been held in the same place and plenty of room would have existed for vendors, jamming, and concessions.
I'm not sad to see Wintergrass move on except that I happen to be from Tacoma and it was nice to be able to go down there and hang around. I am sad, however, to see Wintergrass fail to really examine its festival model and make changes that would have kept this a premier winter bluegrass and traditional music event.
IMHO.
Bill

----------


## mrmando

Good points about the food and the possibility of a tiered fee system. Don't know why you're so hostile toward the promoters, though. The circumstances that put a damper on the jamming were all related to changes at the hotel, not to anything the promoters did. I don't get how a festival discourages jamming by allowing jammers into all the public spaces for free.



> I think the promoters of Wintergrass bear much of the responsibility for its failure.


_What_ failure?

----------


## SternART

I enjoyed Tacoma.......the Glass Museum was cool, since I'm a glass artist.......but when the Sheraton changed hands & got all fancy.......I think the writing was on the wall.  The organizers are pretty together folks......hopefully they learned from the experience & it will be better than ever!

----------


## billhay4

I'm not hostile to the promoters. I was merely trying to say where I think much of the blame for Wintergrass's declining attendance and loss of atmosphere lies.
The hotel merely reflects the wishes of its owners. If they don't want Wintergrass there, it won't be there.
However, the hotel is, IMHO, not the reason for declining attendance and a definite loss of enthusiasm from the attendees. Wintergrass has simply become a place where attending concerts was the only thing that was encouraged.
Of course, this is where they make their money and that, in my view, is the problem. Many roots music fans don't like to attend concerts, they  like to participate. Make money off of this! 
The jammers drive a lot of the activity at all bluegrass events. They draw quality vendors. The buy food. They bring in non-musicians who then go to some of the concerts or buy food, or buy t-shirts (spend money in other words). They provide much of the energy to the event.
All I was trying to suggest is that the promoters of Wintergrass tap into this energy, encourage it, and make money off of it.
Bill

----------


## Jim Nollman

I think i understand what you are attempting to promote here, Billy. However, I'm not sure how the people who host the event can possibly make money (both the hotel and the promoters) off the few hundred people who attend only to sit in the lobby and jam for three days. How many of those jammers would still go if they had to pay to keep playing in that lobby? 

I am one of  the Wintergrass attendees who doesn't care at all about jamming. I only go to hear the professionals play onstage, AND to check out all the latest instruments by so many great builders. And, yes, to socialize with a few people whom I don't see very often except at Wintergrass. I must seem incredibly naive after attending 3 Wintergrass years, (and each of those years mostly sidestepping around the thick cacophony of jams) but until you mentioned it the other day on the Cafe, I had no idea that lots of those same jammers were neither staying in the hotel nor even buying a ticket to attend the concerts. Is it really lots of people? Or maybe just a few.

----------


## Spruce

> Is it really lots of people? Or maybe just a few.


The former....

----------


## armadilo60

Wintergrass did not control the food situation at the Murano. It is the hotel who supplies the food,which is usually not negotiable in a hotel or convention center.(I know this because I spent 10 years in hotel managment)  Not much you can do in this situation. The promoters more than understand the value of jamming at Wintergrass. They have done everything they can for years to promote the jamming at Wintergrass it is a major part of Wintergrass. They can only do so much it is not their venue. The convention center would not work for a variety of reasons. This festival as opposed to many festivals is a NONPROFIT organization. It is built on volunteers. Things change. They worked hard at looking at every option available and the best overall solution is The Bellevue Hyatt. 
If you have read the newspaper articles you know that the city of Tacoma,the mayor of Tacoma,the convention bureau, the arts council and others plus the Stephen,Patrice and the entire board tried to get the festival to stay in Tacoma. It just would not work after looking at the structure of the festival from all aspects-lodging,jamming,use of all available spaces(not just the Murano) This is was not an easy decision, which is why they waited for around a 1000 answers to the survey. They want to put on the best festival possible!

The hotel does not merely reflect the wishes of the promoter. That is not correct.Hotels are in business to make money,the promoter is there to produce a 4 day product for musicians and fans,no other reason,they really want to break even. How did the promoters not promote jamming. Workshops are for jammers to improve their skill not for concert fans. Vendors of instruments are for jammers not concert attenders. It is a FESTIVAL not a concert. 

The new venue is going to be better for this. The stages,jamming,vendors all under one roof. 
No getting shut out of the same hotel,at $109 per night(much cheaper than the Murano-more money for you to spend on discs and instruments from vendors) where your picking buddies are. 24 hour jamming is back. As details come out it will be on the blog. I am the blogger. Patrice and Stephen are working hard and getting details to me but they did not plan on this, usually this time of year they do not have much to do for the festival,so they do have other commitments (the Mandolin Symposium) for the next week or so. 


Get your questions to me and I will get them to the right people as soon as possible.
Eric Frommer, armadilo60@yahoo.com 

http://wintergrass.wordpress.com for the blog
Lineup so far is The Seldom Scene,Dry Branch Fire Squad,Crooked Still,Mike Marshall & Darol Anger with Vasen,Tim O'brien, The Infamous Stringdusters,Crooked Still,The Wilders.  More to come. 

Eric in Everett

----------


## Maria

"They brought in oddball groups."

One person's "oddball group" may be another person's
favorite musical discovery of the year.

----------


## Spruce

Looks like the other NW Fluorescent Festival--River City Music Festival--is undergoing some changes--including a change of venue--as well...

And they are taking next year off to "regroup and redesign"...

----------


## mandopete

Bruce - when ya gonna get that that Mexican bluegrass festival going?

 :Smile: 

FWIW - I think this move was prompted more by economics than anything.  My understanding is that room rates are lower and with greater availability in the Bellevue venue.  All of the stages will be under one roof which not only saves money but walking time as well.

The jamming at Wintergrass is kinda hit or miss IMHO.  The lobby and other "public" locations are pretty noisy.  Jamming in the rooms is just too private (exclusive) to me to be good.

My best hope is that the same people who come to Wintergrass will continue to come as that's one of the mainest reasons I go to the festival.  That, and some of the oddball groups.

 :Smile:

----------


## mrmando

> Wintergrass has simply become a place where attending concerts was the only thing that was encouraged.


While this may be at least partially true, you haven't cited anything the promoters (i.e., not the hotel) did to make it that way. As noted, the hotel has its own food concession, lousy though it might be, which would rule out the possibility of the festival bringing in better food. Your complaint is legitimate but it's not the promoters' fault. 

The only thing the promoters did that discouraged jamming was to to _try to keep the festival at the Murano—_and now they've decided to stop doing that, in part because the Murano is not a welcoming place to jam. So where's the beef?

The convention center might be a good location for concerts, vendors, workshops, and jammers ... but no one can sleep at the convention center! No hotel rooms.

----------


## SternART

The "Church" was the cool venue, for me anyway.......and there was great food within a few blocks, lots of good ethnic food.   I enjoyed my Tacoma Wgrass experiences......enough that I traveled from out of state.  I had the site figured out.......had my cadre of hipsters.  It was a nice weekend out of town. All it will take is a great lineup to get me to start over in a new location.......

----------


## Spruce

> I am sad, however, to see Wintergrass fail to really examine its festival model...


What "festival model"?
The "festival model" is _not_ a Wintertime deal, and never has been, until Wintergrass (to their credit) came along and bucked the trend, right?

Bluegrass festivals have always been a summertime deal, just like baseball...

Camping, playing tunes till 5 a.m. under the stars, etc.
"The peoples" festival, if you will, and traditionally so...
That's what bluegrass festivals have always been about, no?....

The wintertime "Fluorescent Festivals" turned into an elitist, sterile, and _very_ expensive outing that just doesn't make any sense, especially in these economic times...
Or any other times for that matter...
But maybe that's just me...

(A heartfelt nod to the folks who run these festivals.  
I know many of you, and have played many years in various bands at Wintergrass since the first year of it's inception. 
But, things have changed.)





> Bruce - when ya gonna get that that Mexican bluegrass festival going?


OK, a much better choice than Bellevue, would be any number of beach towns in Mexico.

The cost of an airline ticket would be _nothing_ compared to the costs one encountered at one of these winter festivals....
Hotel costs would be 1/5 of what the Sheraton was, and the atmosphere would _kill_ compared to anything I've experienced at Wintergrass or River City.

Imagine jamming on the beach till the wee hours with _no_ "powers that be" telling you to "knock it off", with cheap libations and _great_ eats, and a lucky town-of-choice that would _love_ to have all these visitors show up every year playing their crazy gringo music...    :Wink: 
The "model" has already been established, with various festivals that Mexico  is so famous for....





> All it will take is a great lineup to get me to start over in a new location.......


Ya pay to fly the name acts to Tacoma, and it wouldn't be that much more to get them to Zihuatanejo...
And getting to Zihua wouldn't cost Art that much more that getting to SeaTac...    :Wink: 
And there are a _lot_ of folks flying in to Tacoma from all parts of the US and abroad to attend Wintergrass...

Instead of assuming that your audience is where the festival is (namely, uhhhhhhh, Tacoma), why not follow the weather and offer to kill two birds with one stone--a warm-weather vacation combined with a killer pickin' party/concert series?
"Build it and they will come"....

And they _will_ come, just like they do on all those "bluegrass cruises"....
(Or are those failing too??)

Only this festival would have some serious _cajones_...

----------


## mandopete

Zihua?  I'm there!

Now all we gotta do is avoid the swine flu.

 :Smile:

----------


## Spruce

> Zihua?  I'm there!
> 
> Now all we gotta do is avoid the swine flu.



I think I got it down there last February...
I'm not kidding.
At least I'm now sorta innoculated for next flu season...    :Wink: 

Just to keep on topic, it wasn't anywhere near as bad as the case of food poisoning I (and quite a few others) received via the caesar salads at that little snack bar near the vendors at W'grass a few years back...

----------


## chip

_[IQUOTE=billhay
I would be interested in reactions to this development.
My own reaction is that the promoters of Wintergrass never really figured out how to make money out of all the hangers on and jammers who flocked to the event each year (except the past one). Instead, they seemed to want Wintergrass to be some sort of concert.
The history of Wintergrass is one of discouraging this desire, rather than fostering it and making money off of it. 
Finally, instead of examining their model, the promoters of Wintergrass looked elsewhere for solutions to falling attendance. They brought in oddball groups. The blamed the hotel. etc.
I think the promoters of Wintergrass bear much of the responsibility for its failure. Sure, the hotel became hostile to the event, but hotels are a dime a dozen as the switch to Bellevue proves. )_[/I]

I couldn't disagree more with all the above. Patrice et all, have done a magnificant job with Wintergrass and thanks to their efforts along with all the fans is what made Wintergrass what it is. What a shame it would be to lose it, and they almost did. Apparantly negotiations must have broke down and a better offer came through, thus the move. It will be much better now with all the venue's under one roof. I applaud their efforts and wish them well. Let's move forward and support their efforts as they work very hard to make this happen. In regard to the comment about "oddball groups" it seems that it's wonderful for new groups to be heard and offered a chance at being presented to a broader audience. It offers a little of everything for everyone.

----------


## mrmando

Well, I'm a lot closer to Bellevue than Tacoma, so I can stay up late, jam like a banshee and still make it home at night to sleep. Many's the time I've done the 45 miles from Tacoma to Edmonds with my windows down so the February breeze could keep me from dozing off.

The Mexico thing sounds promising. I'm sure Peter Rowan and Frank Wakefield would play there.

----------

