# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Pentatonic scales

## nick hyserman

I"m 76 yrs old and have been playing about 2 1/2 years and play with a small group at nursing homes several times a month.  I can pick 12 or so tunes from tab and 
another 8 or 10 from memory,  I can hear the chord changes but cannot tell what
chord to go to so I;ve been trying to follow along by picking out the tune (quietly) as I 
hear it.  I use the notes in the song's key scale  and sometimes I can do it pretty well most of time it's just so so.  I've been  reading a lot about the pentatonic scales and 
am wondering why they are important and how should I use them?  I should tell you
that I've not had any musical experience prior to picking up the mandolin.

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## Stevo75

Nick, can you pick out a major scale? If so, the pentatonic scale is simply the first, second, third, fifth and sixth notes in that scale - if we're talking about the major pentatonic (which is good for bluegrass). "Penta" means five.  So the pentatonic scale is 5 notes from the underlying major or minor scale.

There is also the minor pentatonic, which is the first, third, fourth, fifth, and seventh notes of the minor scale. The minor pentatonic works well for the blues. But forget about that for now.

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## Stevo75

This may help:

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E.R. Villalobos, 

EdHanrahan, 

GospelBlues, 

Ky Slim, 

maxamy, 

Sheila Lagrand, 

Simon DS, 

Timothy Burke

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## JeffD

> Nick, can you pick out a major scale? If so, the pentatonic scale is simply the first, second, third, fifth and sixth notes in that scale - .


i.e. drop the fourth and seventh note.

The mandolin makes great and easy to remember patterns for this in G and D and A. Just practice them and you will find they are useful in so many surprising ways. (Not to mention playing bugle calls.)

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## Mark Gunter

> why they are important and how should I use them?


Folk have answered well on what the pentatonic scale is: Five specific notes taken from the diatonic scale.

*Why is it important?* Well, you have 2 less notes of the scale to learn for a usable pattern, 2 less notes of the scale to play in soloing, and the five notes you're using are the most likely notes to fit in the melody of most songs. You can learn more about 'why this is the case from a music theory standpoint' from so many resources, but as far as "Why the pentatonic scale?" that is the reason, it's a simpler scale that fits well in soloing.
_
How should I use them?_ I'll give just one quick example with the _major pentatonic_ starting with index finger on the 3rd string.



I apologize about using the key of F# in my example, I already had this image in my attachments, but _the key doesn't matter_. Study the pattern. the pattern above is played with index finger on the green spot of the third string (F# in this example). The five notes of the pentatonic scale in this example are F#, G#, A#, C#, D#, so as you can see, the pattern I've shown goes from index finger on 3rd string on up to one octave on second string. It also shows position of C# and D# on 4th string.

You can play all kinds of licks and find numerous melody lines within this simple pattern, and to change to another key, simply find the note with index finger and start the same pattern in another key. Try it along with your favorite tunes on the radio.

Beginner's hint: To limit yourself to just the five notes, keep your index finger planted on the key note, and use the second and third fingers to play on the 3rd and fourth string. Move this around anywhere on the fret board to play in any _major_ key.

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E.R. Villalobos, 

The Og

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## noah finn

Whenever a thread comes up about penatonic scales I always think of this YouTube video "bluegrass box".

https://youtu.be/dHBG-BVk6M

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## noah finn



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## nick hyserman

Thank you all very much.  Most helpful

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## Joseph Baker

I saved the following from a thread several years ago.
I apologize to the person who wrote this. I cannot find the old thread to give proper credit or attribution

"Why pentatonic? The notes that are removed are notes that are not common to all 3 scales of the I,IV,V progression. For example if playing in G the chords are G,C,and D. So in the D scale there is a C# whereas G and C have a natural C in their scale. Toss out the C. G and D have F# but C does not, so toss out the F# What remains is the G pentatonic scale. Since it contains only notes that are common to all 3 scales in the progression it contains no sour notes. Given some are sweeter than others but there are no stinkers. In addition the fretboard scale patterns for pentatonics are easy to learn,almost boring, and once you have them you are on your way to the races."

Joseph Baker

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## EdHanrahan

Maybe a little bit off topic but...

I was floored decades ago while noodling on guitar and found that the (symphonically thrilling) main theme of "Victory at Sea" used a pentatonic scale!

(No, I'm not talking about video game music, although the game may use some of the original.  "Victory at Sea" in 1952 was, I believe, the first major documentary produced specifically for TV -13 hours-, AND the first time that a major symphonic score was composed specifically for TV.)

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## JeffD

> Since it contains only notes that are common to all 3 scales in the progression it contains no sour notes. Given some are sweeter than others but there are no stinkers.


Yea its kind of a safe zone, where you can noodle without doing harm.

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## jshane

Although it is true that the way pentatonic scales are mostly used is for their "safety"--- it is also pretty apparent that humans are hard-wired into pentatonic.  This video is awesome-- Bobby McFerrin actually "plays" the audience.....

https://www.ted.com/talks/bobby_mcfe...ain_with_music

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jhowell, 

Ky Slim, 

Mark Gunter

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## Mark Gunter

> Although it is true that the way pentatonic scales are mostly used is for their "safety"--- it is also pretty apparent that humans are hard-wired into pentatonic.  This video is awesome-- Bobby McFerrin actually "plays" the audience.....
> 
> https://www.ted.com/talks/bobby_mcfe...ain_with_music


A beautiful example!

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## nick hyserman

Jeff and Ed  -  Thank you  -  Thank you.  often times when trying to pick out a tune, I would hear that sour note and think "thats terrible"  I've tried to find the sour note while using the pentatonic and you  are right.  There is none.  Get out of my way  -  I'm flying now..

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## billhay4

One more thing. There are no sour notes in a key IF you move right on to the next note.
Bill

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David Watson

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## mikeonthemandolin

I created a few free videos for the mandolin. 

Major Pentatonic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTNoL_nmq2Q
Minor Pentatonic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WenjBKcsOPE
Blues Scale - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52vNjKIZGLU

I hope these are useful,
M

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noah finn

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## jhowell

and as related to jshane's post...

http://calebwcliff.com/2016/ancient-...tatonic-scale/

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Mark Gunter

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## Mark Gunter

> and as related to jshane's post...
> 
> http://calebwcliff.com/2016/ancient-...tatonic-scale/


Interesting micro-article! Thanks for sharing this. The video from that article is embedded below.

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jhowell

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## JeffD

Then there is this:

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## Andy B

All the pentatonic scale theory and practice for mandolin that most of us will ever need is laid out in Niles Hokkanen's book "The Pentatonic Mandolin."  Some pentatonic scale patterns for mandolin are also presented in "Bluegrass Up The Neck" by the same author.  I found both volumes to be extremely helpful-YMMV.

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mandocrucian

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## Larry Simonson

I learned this scale the hard way, by self discovery, after years of noodling but I didn't know what it was until a teacher mentioned it and that it would be worth my while to practice it.  Oooh, I already knew the basics and now I had  a name for it.  I then got Nile's book and have since been much more relaxed about stage anxiety.  I also discovered that tunes in minor keys could be faked using the relative major of the minor key, keeping in mind the root.  Darn I regret not knowing this stuff 30 years ago.

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## Joel Glassman

Nick-
Pentatonics are fine, but first I'd learn how to play rhythm. Memorize some basic chords
and find a guitarist to help [if no mandolin players are available]. Playing rhythm is
a beautiful thing. Try to find the chords to one of your songs online and maybe someone
in your group can help with the key. Once you learn chords & rhythm it tells you how music is 
structured & how the 'colors and flavors' combine. This will really add to your musicianship.

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John Soper

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## Sherry Cadenhead

I'm working on pentatonic scales and thought I might revive this thread.

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Jon Hall, 

Mandophyte

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## Sherry Cadenhead

> All the pentatonic scale theory and practice for mandolin that most of us will ever need is laid out in Niles Hokkanen's book "The Pentatonic Mandolin."  Some pentatonic scale patterns for mandolin are also presented in "Bluegrass Up The Neck" by the same author.  I found both volumes to be extremely helpful-YMMV.


I'm interested in working on pentatonic scale exercises - not from a video, but from written notation.  Looks like one of these may be the best resource???

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## onassis

Niles' books are some of the best you'll find.  Highly recommended!

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Sherry Cadenhead

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## Woyvel

They call that "jazz".

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## Sherry Cadenhead

Just ordered The Pentatonic Mandolin.  It shows as advanced, which I'm not, but hope to get there.

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## bigskygirl

I have both of Niles books and they are good.  I took them to the local copy shop and had them enlarged and bound with a platic comb so these old eyes of mine could see the print better.  Also, Don Julins video in post #3 is really good, I refer back to it from time to time.  He also has a online course going thru pentatonic scales and playing the chord changes.

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Sherry Cadenhead

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## Sherry Cadenhead

> Just ordered The Pentatonic Mandolin.  It shows as advanced, which I'm not, but hope to get there.


Question for anyone who has this book:

Where do you suggest shifting from/to first position in exercises 2 and 3?  I can always ask my teacher, but maybe some has figured this out???

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## mandocrucian

> Question for anyone who has this book:
> 
> Where do you suggest shifting from/to first position in exercises 2 and 3?  I can always ask my teacher, but maybe some has figured this out???


Fingerings are in the space between the notation and tablature.

NH

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## Sherry Cadenhead

> Fingerings are in the space between the notation and tablature.
> 
> NH


I see it!  Thanks!

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## lowtone2

Not mandolin specific, but Jerry Bergonzi is pretty well known for his ideas on using pentatonics.

https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/p...nd-pdf-bundle/

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## Sherry Cadenhead

So, I'm working through some of the exercises in The Pentatonic Mandolin.  I get that if you're playing the G major pentatonic scale, you don't play C or F# (4th and 7th).  I'm thinking if I try to improvise, I'm going to hit those notes.  I feel really dumb, but does it just happen that you hit the correct notes and don't hit those not in the scale?  Do you even know what I mean?

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## Jim Bevan

Through practice, you've learned to play patterns and scale-runs etc in G major, using the seven notes of the G scale and only those seven notes, without hitting the other five notes of the chromatic scale. Same process will apply with the G major pentatonic scale  you'll learn to play patterns using five notes without hitting the other seven.

Through practice, that is.  :Wink:

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Sherry Cadenhead, 

Sue Rieter

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## onassis

What Jim said.  The first challenge in improvising is avoiding the notes that don't sound "right", even if they are in the scale.  Pentatonics do this for you automatically.  If you can find ways to say something interesting using only the notes of the pentatonic scale, then you've completed the first step.  Once you're comfortable playing phrases using only those five notes, you can start experimenting with adding in the 4ths and 7ths in ways that work and add interest (passing notes, color tones that indicate the chord underneath, etc.)  It's all a process.  Learning how to say something with a limited palette is an important building block.

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Sherry Cadenhead

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## Simon DS

I was wondering, do you guys playing say, in the key of G major, play the G major pentatonic when the chord for the measure is G major, and then when it moves to a C major chord for the next measure, you change to the C major pentatonic? 
And Am chord would be...?

I mean do you think in terms of constantly changing scales, or patterns?

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Sherry Cadenhead, 

Sue Rieter

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## Mark Gunter

> I was wondering, do you guys playing say, in the key of G major, play the G major pentatonic when the chord for the measure is G major, and then when it moves to a C major chord for the next measure, you change to the C major pentatonic? 
> And Am chord would be...?
> 
> I mean do you think in terms of constantly changing scales, or patterns?


There is not just "one way" to use scales, Simon, including the pentatonic scale. One answer would be that for most tunes, using the G major pentatonic scale alone over all the chords of a tune in the key of Gmajor will not sound "sour" - you can find licks or melodies using only the five notes of the G major pentatonic scale that will not sound "bad" over the chord changes in the key of G.

But that could become a boring way of playing very quickly, so using other scales over the changes is a good thing to learn to do. Also, you can use some pentatonic scales of one key over another key to good effect, so that is something else to learn, for example, which chords or keys can the G major pentatonic be played over successfully besides G major? Can the G minor pentatonic be played over G major? Can the G major pentatonic be played over G minor? If you learn enough tunes, you'll find usages that perhaps you hadn't expected.

As to playing a different scale over each change, yes, that is also common. Check out Pete Martin's excellent YouTube videos on the subject of chord scales using the Barry Harris method, an entire series posted here: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...learning-bebop

BTW, re: chord scales. When folks say, "chord scale" they often mean playing all the chords of a key in diatonic harmony ascending, example: G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, F#dim, G. That is playing diatonic harmony. On the other hand, a "chord scale" as Pete shows in his teaching of the Barry Harris method is a modified scale that adds notes to the scale in the appropriate places, so that the down stroke when playing eighth notes _always falls on a chord tone_.

For a beginner, just try playing the _x_ pentatonic scale over all the chords in the key of _x_,  and try to find patterns or licks using only those five notes that  sound good throughout the song. That's the simplest way to start.

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Sue Rieter

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## Tom Wright

Jim Bevan's economic reply is probably sufficient, but I want to explain something for elementary students.

Scales and arpeggios are like the alphabet and spelling rules. Those don't on their own teach you to read, and certainly not to write. Only reading teaches that, as you see the uses of words (melody fragments), phrases (riffs) and sentences and stories (tunes).

Scales alone just show you where the notes are. Adept players do not go from studying scales to riffing on fiddle tunes, many never bothered to learn scales if in the folk or bluegrass world. 

A fiddle tune is in itself both a scale and pentatonic exercise. And it shows how they are used.

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John MacPhee, 

Sherry Cadenhead, 

Sue Rieter

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## Sherry Cadenhead

So, is it better to focus on one key, such as G major, or several different ones simultaneously?

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## onassis

One of the beautiful things about the mandolin is that is so predictable - once you begin to see the patterns on the fretboard, you see that they repeat predictably from one end of the fretboard to the other.  The trick is learning to see the patterns.  So I think it's very beneficial to work on the closed pentatonic scales.

That said, I also think it's a real confidence booster to get comfortable in the first position with a key that you'll use a lot.  For me, that was G.  There were lots of songs in G to play along with at the jam, and it didn't take too long to feel reasonably adept at producing a non-embarassing attempt at a solo (this was a slow-ish folk jam, not BG).  Then you figure out how to move those patterns one string over to play in D.  Then extrapolate from that what you need to do for C.  It's a process.

If you keep picking away at it steadily, it will begin to make sense.

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Sherry Cadenhead

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## Simon DS

One thing I just noticed, and I dont know if its useful but its cool, is that in the key of G major:

G pentatonic contains 1,2,3,5,6. that is it contains the notes 1,3,5 of G major chord ie. GBD
C pentatonic same for C major ie. CEG
D pentatonic same for D major ie. DF#A

-havent tried it yet but it means that if you switch scales through the tune as the chords of each measure change then youll be playing the exact same patterns.
So you could play a major shape chord over G,C, and D notes and then impro in the same way.

Another thing is that the C note ONLY occurs in the C pentatonic, not the others so if you play that one note then it makes the tune go very IV.
Similar for playing the D pentatonic, if you play the F# then the tune goes very V.

Its late here, hope this makes sense!  :Smile:

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John MacPhee, 

Sherry Cadenhead

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## Tim C.

Thanks for asking, Nick, great question.  Loads of great responses.  Here is a video of me playing nothing but the 5 notes of G pentatonic (along with the 6th "blues" note as well - leave it to musicians to put 6 things into something and then call it "penta" tonic!) over every chord in the tune, "I Can't Give You Anything But Love".  All you need to know about pentatonic scale is that all the notes sound good over all of the chords - makes it way easier to get into making up a solo.

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John MacPhee, 

Sherry Cadenhead

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## gspiess

FWIW, when I go to a jam there are a lot of songs that I don't know, and I'm not at a point yet where I can intuitively put the melody together like some folks.  But with being able to find my way around with the Nashville Numbering System for chords and pentatonic scales for soloing, I'm able to hold my own.  

Once you learn those scales, you should then focus on changing scales during the song to match the dominant chord during a specific set of measures.  That sounds confusing, but check out the Don Julin vid that someone posted earlier.  

I mainly play in first position, but lately I've been focusing on the Bluegrass Box to be able to move up the neck.

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Sherry Cadenhead

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