# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  Gibson Tenor Lute

## oinkstrings

NFI,

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Gib...53.m1438.l2649

 I'll be honest. I had no idea what this was at first. I've read plenty about them here on the Cafe. I guess I had never actually seen one. Spent way too much time last night reading about them in the archives. (Bluegrasser78, I think you were looking for one back in march.)
 Looks a little rough but nothing insurmountable. Also Does not look like the seller knows what they have. ( Though at least two of the bidders so far look to be professionals.) 
 My other concern is that it is the only item out of 567 for sale by this seller that does not have a shipping price. seemed strange.
 If someone here does get it please post updates. I do have a soft spot for these odder critter of the Loar Era

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## Seter

I follow this seller fairly closely since they're located close to me, haven't bought anything from them yet but they do seem to have a steady stream of interesting instruments for sale. They might have just not configured this particular listing correctly.

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## William Smith

This one would be a perfect candidate for a mandola conversion since the back is hammered and the whole is in rough shape! That's what these were pry going to be if Loar wasn't fired and the mando craze was long over and the banjo craze was in full swing! That's pry why they have a banjo type tenor neck. The body I was told is the same interior dimensions as the Loar H-5 Mandola. Loar's personal what 10 string had the same body and mandola neck! So it'll be interesting to see how much this one goes for. I didn't see a MM label in this one and at first glance it looks as though it was refinished? Or just seriously dark from sitting out or something. Notice they didn't have a pix of the WHOLE back? That's kind of sketchy-It may be real hammered?

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## oinkstrings

Oh I believe they are a legit estate sales site. It's just that the shipping costs of their other 3 instruments for sale seem pretty random. 3 guitars, one has shipping at $9.14, another is $68.05, and the third is $123.37. The tenor lute listing simply tells me my area code is not valid. Not implying anything shady. Just suggesting you confirm shipping cost before bidding. An extra $100  or so in shipping cost would certainly dampen my mood a bit.

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## Mandolin Cafe

> This one would be a perfect candidate for a mandola conversion --snip--


Possible, but slapping a neck with a Gibson logo onto one does not make it valuable, rare or particularly interesting, except in the mind of one seller who will never be peddling his misrepresented wares on the Cafe again. And you haven't indicated that so we're not suggesting you are. Charging any more than $2-3K max for such a Frankenstein contraption is Brooklyn Bridge for sale territory. The mandolin community has never been and is not going to turn into the banjo world where folks routinely snap a few vintage parts on and suddenly have a $40K banjo.

Personally, I'd like to see it restored as is instead of parting it out. There are plenty of pieced together instruments in the market but not many of this model that left the factory so long ago.

YMMV.

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j. condino

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## William Smith

I think if someone wanted an old mandola with the vintage sound and couldn't afford an H-5 this one would be perfect because of all the issues this one has, That is what I'm suggesting, I'm a believer in old wood and this would have the correct "power" with a neck job, just always save the original neck. This would be for someone's personal instrument I'd think to really play, I'd love one but wouldn't pay a whole lot for one completed. I have an undocumented TL with the rare maple back and sides and I wouldn't convert that one, its too nice. I've had F-7's converted to F-5's just by doing the neck cause I couldn't afford a vintage F-5 at the time, and I wanted the old wood sound, I of course saved the original necks in case someone eventually wanted to put it back to original but after playing one why would you want to? I know there's the camp that say keep it all original but if there in terrible/bad shape and some mods can be done to make em better I say go for it if there is enough originals around. Just my opinion.

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## Mandolin Cafe

I can agree with that. 

What I don't agree with is that construction of such a mix and match of parts results in something worth more than an H-4 styled period Gibson mandola on an A styled Frankenstein body and that it's the _missing link_ Loar intended during his tenure with Gibson. If only... but now by the magic of hype and parts, viola! Pure b.s. as evidenced by the statement below on one that was for sale at one time.

_"What we have is the mandola that Loar certainly would have made, if he had not been terminated in 1924..."_

P.T. Barnum would be proud. The creativity one can render when they're looking for a sucker is limitless.

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William Smith

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## allenhopkins

I bought one, in better shape than this but far from mint.  It had its original case.

I paid about $1K for it, mainly for rarity -- Lloyd Loar's less-than-great idea -- and I enjoy its sweet sound tuned CGDA like a tenor banjo.  I don't play it much.

Whoever buys this one, I hope keeps it as a tenor lute, and doesn't transmogrify it into a mandola or a canoe paddle.  Never gonna be a major instrument in the world of mandolin-esque instruments, but it is what it is, and I hope stays what it is.

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## Roman Pekar

I have one, converted it to double strings. It's the same neck, but I felt that single strings are not giving it enough power.  I read that some of these were made with 8 strings, and I think this is still keeping it quite original. This is my main instrument now, tuned CGDA, very sweet sound, I play it everyday.

If I didn't have one already I'd definitely bid on this one, I think it should cost at least $1K (probably more, but I'm not an expert).

For those who interested about the sound - I have a few short clips recorded, you can see it here - https://www.instagram.com/romanpekar. It's not a live sound, but I think it's not too far from it.

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oinkstrings, 

William Smith

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## your_diamond

From his other auction descriptions, clearly, he does not know instruments. He lists a 1980's Dobro as made "made by Gibson" when  Gibson Guitar Corporation acquired OMI in 1993, along with the Dobro name. Also, he has a Gretsch (miss-spelled) Chet Atkins Country Gentleman with binding problems, that he lists as having some breakage on the neck (sounds awful). Legitimate ??? What's your definition?

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## oinkstrings

Maybe I spend too much time on shopgoodwill. ( Or maybe I just remember the early days of ebay a little too fondly.) I think some times you want the seller to know a lot about an instrument and some times it's better if the seller does NOT know lots and lots.

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Jeff Mando, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Roman Pekar, 

your_diamond

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## Seter

Windsong Estate Services is a large operation here in the Houston area, they probably have some employee that just enters in items with a basic description. In college I worked for the local PBS station and my job was to enter into eBay all donated items to raise money for the station, I definitely was no expert on the items I was entering. When the seller doesn't know much about what they're selling, sometimes you can get a great deal, sometimes not so much. It's part of the fun I suppose.

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your_diamond

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## Jim Garber

> I didn't see a MM label in this one


I think you can see remnants of the MM label in this lightened version of the soundhole photo:

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## goaty76

While the Cafe (Scott) is against these conversions others see it as making it an instrument that would be more enjoyed and played by a greater number of people. This is the same idea in the guitar community in converting Hawaiian guitars from 30’s and 40’s to standard Spanish style. GIbson Roy Smecks for instance become amazing instruments when converted as do some Martins. 

Check out Frank Ford’s thoughts on the Tenor Lute in the description section here:
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/77282


Phil

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William Smith

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## Mandolin Cafe

I'm not against converting an instrument if it's the right thing to do. For the purpose of music making, fine. I'm against converting and permanently altering vintage instruments for the pure sake of profiteering, and more specifically when it involves price gouging and bogus descriptions.

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Roman Pekar, 

William Smith

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## rcc56

I have spent some time playing a tenor lute converted to a mandola.  It was a passable instrument, but not in any way amazing.  It might have been a little crisper than some H-1's.  It did not blow any windows out.  Ignoring attempts to establish a special mystical collector's value because of the presence of a master model label, and evaluating it only on its tone and projection, I would not consider it to be any more valuable than an H-1.  And that would only be for an uncracked instrument with nice original finish, not a cobbled up old wreck.

If I was going to pay a high price for a mandola, I would rather have a nice H-4 rather than a converted TL.

The ebay instrument in question looks like it needs several hundred dollars worth of work to restore correctly, and that's not counting the cost of installing a conversion neck.

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allenhopkins, 

Roman Pekar, 

Timbofood

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## William Smith

Yes and a new neck by some respected luthiers is just south of 3G! Loar era H-4's cost what 7-10G I believe, well for really nice ones if you can find one.

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## oinkstrings

I'm glad to hear reference to the cost of a conversion. I just didn't see it as a cost effective endeavor. I would probably be tempted to go to 8 strings though. As Romans videos support, I suspect that body was designed to be driven by more than 4 strings anyway. ( That was cool to be able to hear the difference before and after the 8 string conversion. Thank you Roman.) 
 Alas... maybe some day...

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## rcc56

If you want an old Gibson mandola, you can find a good H-1 in playable condition for $2k, perhaps less if you're watchful and patient.  You might find that the sustain of an oval hole mandola can be quite desirable.

Or have you ever considered just buying an octave mandolin?  Lots of choices out there these days, starting at about $700 or $800 new.  Or you could resurrect an Octofone.

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## Troy Engle

> I'm not against converting an instrument if it's the right thing to do. For the purpose of music making, fine. I'm against converting and permanently altering vintage instruments for the pure sake of profiteering, and more specifically when it involves price gouging and bogus descriptions.


Who said anything about profiteering and bogus descriptions, etc?  No other repliers brought this person up.  The instrument in question is a very rough example of the Gibson tenor lute (which says Gibson on the headstock, so I don't know why you wouldn't put it on a newly made repro neck).  Don't know of any tenor guitar players that prefer the Gibson lute shape, which is another good reason to convert, as it would be better suited to a mando family instrument.  I agree if it's a pristine example, keep it as it.  This is a project.  If you want Gilchrist to make you a new mandola you'd be over 25k.  So I think getting a great builder to put a dola neck on this instrument, would resurrect a virtually unusable instrument into a very nice playing and sounding one, for a lot less money than a Gil, and with some vintage mojo.  Just my 2 cents, just didn't understand where this tone was coming from.  And as far a profiteering, I haven't seen where any of the conversions in question have actually sold! :Smile:

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testore, 

William Smith

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## goaty76

I am in agreement with Troy above. 

Phil

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## rcc56

The cost of purchasing, correctly repairing, and [if desired] converting this particular instrument might exceed the market value of the instrument when the repairs are completed.

This instrument is best suited for someone who is capable of doing the work themselves.

I view its primary value as being an interesting piece of Gibson history.

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## ollaimh

they are nice to play as is. a friend had one, admittedly in better shape,  and he used to to accompany a whistle and flute player and they sounded great.  i have no idea what they are worth. it's not your daily mando.

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## goaty76

Would I convert one......no. Do I understand why someone would.......yes.  

Phil

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## allenhopkins

Some of the "convert" arguments assume that the resultant mandola will be a "very nice playing and sounding one," and that the tenor lute is "virtually unusable."  I would question both assumptions.  Until you replace the neck, you have no idea what the outcome would be; would it be a super-sounding H-1, or not?  And there are uses for the tenor lute; I use mine, albeit infrequently, and it has a nice, sweet sound, though not a lot of volume.

You don't have to be a collector to appreciate a rare, vintage instrument, even one that was not a commercial success.  I am perfectly cool with conversions; my main guitar was once a 1940 Martin 00-28G classical, which was converted to a 00-42 steel-string with a new top and neck, well before I bought it.  I am perfectly willing to concede that the guitar I have is better _as a player's instrument_ than the original 00-28G probably was, though its value to a collector is substantially less.  I also have a GB-3 Gibson Mastertone guitar-banjo that's been converted to a five-string with a replica neck -- though I kept the original six-string neck in case a future owner might want to put it back into its original form.  Banjo conversions are, of course, a different animal, since they're often reversible, which taking the neck off a tenor lute wouldn't easily be.

The situation with the potential tenor lute conversion, is that you're getting rid of a fairly rare and unique instrument, _on the chance_ that you'll end up with a better player's instrument -- and for a price that would buy a decent mandola while keeping the TL intact.  If I ran across a TL/H-1 conversion that had already been accomplished, and found the result to be a superior mandola, I might consider purchasing it.  However, I wouldn't initiate the conversion process myself; I'll keep my tenor lute, and its next owner can do what he/she likes with it.

I think of the number of F-2's and F-4's that were converted to F-5 copies by replacing their tops and installing longer raised necks, and I feel that, in a way, we'd be better off with the F-2's and F-4's as they were, and manufacturers and luthiers building new F-5's.  A certain amount of history was lost in the process, although perhaps the F-5 copies that resulted got played more -- I dunno.

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## goaty76

Is the tenor lute and the tenor guitar the same instrument with a different sized/shaped body?

Phil

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## rcc56

> Is the tenor lute and the tenor guitar the same instrument with a different sized/shaped body?
> 
> Phil


For all practical purposes, yes.

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## William Smith

Well it seems I won this tenor lute for a pretty cheap price and I will convert it seeing its beat, and I already have a real nice original one so I'll have a killer mandola player with vintage vibe, cracks and wear don't bother me as long as it sounds good and I have a feeling this will! Just waiting to pay the bill something that they need to calculate because of shipping to good ole Pennsylvania? This I don't get! Nothing wrong with a conversion, and this will make a fine mandola for around 3500 all together? This I'm guessing on from price quotes I received from a well known luthier. Not a bad price to pay considering what some mandolas cost. I think I did great, others may disagree but I'm thrilled!

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allenhopkins, 

Roman Pekar

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## goaty76

Congrats!  Let us know how it turns out.

Phil

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William Smith

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## ollaimh

congrats as well, a decade ago i would have been all over that but i am heading in a different direction now.    but i bet it will sound great as a convert, and the price seemed great to me for a vintage and rare instrument.

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William Smith

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## Roman Pekar

Congrats, I agree that price is quite good, so, yes, you did great. I thought of bidding for a moment, but I don't like instruments lying around and not being played and I already have one lute  :Smile:

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William Smith

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## William Smith

Thanks, I'm still waiting for the invoice to pay, I don't get that I hope I don't get screwed out of it somehow? One thing I hate about evilbay, years ago I won a very nice 36 F-7 at a spectacular price and there was a mishap with paypal and was on the phone all day with paypal security, they for one could barely speak English and they couldn't figure it out, So I cancelled my paypal account! I couldn't use a credit card for that purchase, I was so mad I had to forfeit the F-7! BUMMER I hope I won't have to forfeit the Tenor Lute? Something about they need to figure out shipping from Texas cause it says they can't ship to PA? That is the dumbest thing I've heard, last I checked PA is still part of America! I do think this will make a fine mandola, it has the old wood pedigree. And for the complete project it'll be a great deal and I know it'll sound better than any oval hole Gibson, no matter what anyone says, it'll have the power! and correct longer scale. May not be pristine but that has never bothered me, Pristine isn't my cup of tune!

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## William Smith

Well the Tenor Lute is on her way, Hope the back aint too bad since they didn't show pix but anything can be fixed! And this one will make a fine player mandola for me and I guarantee it'll sound and have more power than an oval hole H-1 or 2 or even 4!

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## allenhopkins

Your enthusiasm and confidence are infectious, but the proof of _that_ pudding will be after the conversion's complete.

Gibson did make an f-hole, carved-top "A" mandola in the '30's, the H-0 -- not many of them, but I did play one years ago as a "loaner" when my bowl-back Washburn was in for repairs.  My (somewhat fuzzy) memories was that it was undistinguished.  Hope yours is distinguished in contrast.

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William Smith

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## your_diamond

> Windsong Estate Services is a large operation here in the Houston area, they probably have some employee that just enters in items with a basic description. In college I worked for the local PBS station and my job was to enter into eBay all donated items to raise money for the station, I definitely was no expert on the items I was entering. When the seller doesn't know much about what they're selling, sometimes you can get a great deal, sometimes not so much. It's part of the fun I suppose.


bluegrasser78 Congratulations on your purchase! I hope the shipping wasn't too much. 

When it comes to shipping, they are all over the place.
I won the auction on their 1984 Dobro. I think it's a model 60 http://r.ebay.com/7z7W1M . Shipping on this item was listed as $106.11 Economy Shipping... I asked why & they said it would be $63.99... when I went to pay, the shipping was listed as $45.43... might be too many employees & the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. 

For $525.43 total with shipping, this 1984 Dobro with original Hardshell case could be a nice deal... we will see.

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## William Smith

Yes Allen it is infectious! I have a gut feeling that it'll be a good one when completed! It'll have the longer correct scale maple neck, So it'll have the power of an H-5! Also with ebony board, dot inlay also fluer-de-lis in peg head, vintage original pearl button worn silver plated bump end Waverly tuners unless I can find some arrowhead pearl button tuners???? I think it'll be a goodun considering the wear and tear on this TL, also the back cracks. Then I'll have a really great shape original TL to play, I was originally going to convert that but not now its too nice. 
 Also just talked to Randy Wood and after a year my 34 F-7 is about done, that baby was just getting a new 5 scale small rounded maple neck, with radiused ebony board with scooped florida, replica 7 style pearl inlays in peg head and board, pearl nut,big frets, radiused RW ebony bridge, tone bars shaved down, "same graduations as a 34 F-5 that a friend had down there, so no re-graduation" deep neck set Duffey style so from top of mando to top of bridge 1 inch, most are 3/4 of an inch or less! And an old pickguard I had.
 He hasn't started on my 58 F-5 that will be getting some serious treatment and a "VIRZI-YAH" always wanted one in a 5. So yes love me some conversions. Can't wait to send off the Tenor Lute. funny thing I've never even played a mandola! NUTS huh!

I think shipping was 60 bucks? I can live with that as long as the top doesn't arrive caved in :Crying:

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allenhopkins

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## your_diamond

> I think shipping was 60 bucks?


$60 shipping for a super light weight Gibson lute &
$45 shipping for a much larger & heavier (non-Gibson lol) Dobro. 

 :Disbelief:

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## gweetarpicker

> Is the tenor lute and the tenor guitar the same instrument with a different sized/shaped body?
> 
> Phil


The short answer is yes.  The tenor lute and tenor guitar are typically tuned the same with a similar scale length.  However, I have used heavier strings (.048W, .034W, .022W, .012) to tune my TL-1 like an octave mandolin which actually works pretty well. 

Even though the tuning is the same, (C3, G3, D4, A4), tenor guitars typically have larger bodies and a longer scale length than mandolas. Also tenor guitars use lighter gauge single strings instead of string pairs, another important factor that contributes to the very different timbre of  these two types of instruments.  The Gibson tenor lute is caught in between with a mandola size body and a scale length more like a tenor guitar.   Given its demure voice, perhaps it is too heavily built for tenor tuning with typical tenor guitar string gauges. D'Addario EJ76 medium gauge mandola strings exert about 102 lbs of pressure on a mandola with a 15.875" scale length while D'Addario EJ66 tenor guitar strings exert about 83 lbs of pressure on a tenor guitar with a 23" scale length.

www.vintagefrettedinstruments.com

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## William Smith

Yes I don't get their shipping logic, don't know where the dobro went? But I'm in PA and that's a good bit far from Texas? I told them to take bridge off and pack real well so that may have added weight if they did it right! I can't hardly wait to get the TL so I can look her over and see how beat it truly is but for a conversion it'll work nicely. Then I need to send her to someone for the neck job? I'm waiting to hear back from Mr.Vessel. He has done these before and they looked great granted the other ones he did were really clean T. Lutes.

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## William Smith

OK kids, just received the Tenor Lute and WoW I might've bitten off more than I can chew! I still think its worth the 750 bucks I paid but terrible shape there is old small brads nailed into her at various spots, top cracks and back cracks, original finish is shot/don't know if its original, very dark and dirty! The back crack repairs if that's what you'd call it were sanded terrible! To restore back to original would cost a bunch-It would need a total refinish! So a beat mandola conversion may be the answer for sure! I don't care about looks, I'm sure it'll sound great fixed into a mandola, She sure is dried out!!!! Lets hear some opinions, good or bad?

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## Jim Garber

bluegrasser78: sounds like you gave us the most important opinion, at least for the immediate one—yours. I assume that you were not planning to do the restoration/conversion/whatever yourself. Maybe you can find a pitying luthier who all his/her life wanted to work on one of these babies. As far as biting off more than one can chew, I would say that the prior owners did a lot of that biting and chewing.  :Smile:  

As far as potential for a good-sounding and playing something: I would examine the arch of the top and the bracing above all since that would be potentially the source of proper tone, etc. Neck angle would not be important if you were not converting it to a mandola. 

Here's a dumb question though (pardon me if someone asked this in this thread already): for a lower budget conversion and to avoid making a whole new neck would it be possible to cut the neck down to mandola length? It might not be all that pretty but might work functionally. Personally, it would not be my choice, but if done by a skillful luthier might work?

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## William Smith

The original neck isn't wide enough for a mandola. I just can't believe all the old brads in this thing, unbelievable and KRAZY! I have done a few old Gibson A model converts but this thing is outta my league! Too many cracks, the finish/cracks are terrible but that doesn't bother me, as long as it sounds decent, I'm still waiting to hear from Gary Vessel as he told me a while back he'd love to do another one of these conversions so the waiting game although he may run when he sees her!!!LOLoud big time!

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## allenhopkins

Well, my first mandolin -- found in my grandfather's attic -- was a 'teens Gibson A-1, with a big top crack that had been "repaired" with adhesive tape.  Then it was stuck in the attic to bake for a couple decades.  Needless to say, though I had the crack fixed, the finish where the tape had been was somewhat compromised.

Some owners were sure that any problems with their instruments could be fixed at home.  Why not put a screw-eye into the headstock to attach a strap (my TL has one)?  Why not use finishing nails to reattach a separated seam, or put a wood screw through a cracked neck heel, or use a couple small bolts to secure a lifting guitar bridge?  I mean, you already put your name on the top with stick-on letters from the hardware store!

Now you've inherited the result of DIY luthiery, what Stan Jay of Mandolin Brothers used to call "reptile dentistry."   There's a usable instrument lurking somewhere in that TL; good luck coaxing it out.

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William Smith

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## goaty76

Not to add any more confusion to things but since these are converted to an instrument that didn’t really exist has anyone ever considered converting one to an octave mandolin?

Phil

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## mrmando

> has anyone ever considered converting one to an octave mandolin?


I'm told there are 8-string versions of the tenor lute in existence. If you had one of those you could string it up as an octave without changing it at all.

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## William Smith

My original TL, Is 4 strings and I tune that same as a mandolin, so kinda octave?

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## testore

To say these instruments are only worth $2000-$3000 is well off the mark. If Loar had not been fired in 1924 and if the mandolin market had not been in the toilet these would MOST DEFINITELY have left Kalamazoo as Loar signed mandolas. All Tenor Lutes have Master Model labels. Imagine what they would cost today as mandolas. Lloyd Loar was used as a salesman and only had a few design features that he brought to the workshop, big and important features yes, but he didnt build any instruments. The people responsible for building Loar signed instruments are the SAME people who built these mandola bodies. Putting a Gibson logo on the headstock DOES NOT make these Frankenstein instruments. These are bonafide Gibson products and putting the CORRECT neck to these bodies is proper. The work involved in putting these instruments back into mandolas is well worth it. Granted, placing them in the market is difficult, but to say theyre worth less than a current builder would charge to build one from start to finish is simply incorrect. There isnt a well known builder in this country who would build one as fine as this for $2000-$3000. Unfortunately I was not able to download a sound clip but I can assure you this conversion is a Hoss.

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BradKlein, 

William Smith

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## allenhopkins

> To say these instruments are only worth $2000-$3000 is well off the mark.


Think I paid $1.7K for my TL, w/original case, minus tailpiece cover.

Not sure what you mean by "correct neck" -- a correct *mandola* neck, rather than the four-string tenor lute neck?  I intend to keep mine in its original configuration, though that's not to criticize those who'd prefer to convert theirs.  And converting a tenor lute to a mandola isn't exactly "putting it back"; it left Kalamazoo as a TL, even though it may well have made an outstanding mandola.

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Timbofood, 

William Smith

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## testore

Allen you do make a good point, they did in fact leave Kalamazoo as TL’s. But as a practical item, as the mandolin business was crashing, it really makes no sense. TL’s aren’t really lutes either, at least not in any traditional sense. There doesn’t seem to be a good reason other than the trend of Tenor guitar and banjo popularity at the time to try to sell the remaining mandola bodies as something other than mandolas. The necks that were installed were simply Tenor banjo necks. I just think it makes more sense that they were drawn up as mandolas first and that is what they really want to be today.

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allenhopkins, 

William Smith

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## allenhopkins

> ...as a practical item, as the mandolin business was crashing, it really makes no sense. TL’s aren’t really lutes either, at least not in any traditional sense. There doesn’t seem to be a good reason other than the trend of Tenor guitar and banjo popularity at the time to try to sell the remaining mandola bodies as something other than mandolas...I just think it makes more sense that they were drawn up as mandolas first and that is what they really want to be today.


And I also get _your_ point: Gibson was selling fewer and fewer mandolin family instruments, but a lot of tenor banjos.  So why not make tenor-banjo-scale necks and put them on those unsellable mandola bodies?

I'm not sure that this is historically true, however; the TL's were pretty much all made in 1924, according to my research, which -- while not the heyday of Gibson mandolin sales -- was the "Loar era" when Gibson was continuing to invest in and develop mandolin-family instruments.  I have heard that the tenor lute was a Lloyd Loar design, though I've seen nothing definitive on that topic.  It does sport his "Master Model" label, like an F-5 mandolin or an L-5 guitar, and unlike most other Gibson mandolins of the period.

What is true beyond a shadow of a doubt, is that the tenor lute was a Gibsonian "Edsel"; one source says only 89 were made, and whether that figure's accurate, it shows the order of magnitude.  Gibson only listed the TL in one catalog, and only the four-string TL-1 was pictured; there was apparently also a *TL-4,* which has to be one of the rarest Gibson mandolin-family instruments; Mandolin Archive lists two of them.

If my TL "wants to be" a mandola, it'll have to wait for its next owner.

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## testore

The Edsel comparison is perfect. Of course everything I’ve mentioned is pure guesswork but I have talked about it with several very knowledgeable people. It seems to be the most plausible course of events but we will never know for sure. 
I’m happily building a mandola now based on the TL body. I know it will make a very fine mandola.

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allenhopkins

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## goaty76

I recently made a post on Facebook stating how Loar seemed to have a pretty strong liking for his 10 string mando-viola. Multiple public photos of him show him holding it. Being so fond of it it seems like something he perhaps would wanted to add to Gibson’s lineup. Then he parted ways with Gibson right when these were made. Seems like a possibility with these being F-hole instruments with Master Model labels, something that doesn’t really fit the aesthetic of them at all, that their initial intention might have been to be mando-viola’s. Of course this is just hypothetical pondering and has no way to be proven one way or the other. 

Phil

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testore

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## testore

Very good point.

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## William Smith

The very few 30's F-hole elevated board short neck mandolas that I've seen look like exact leftover TL bodies from 24! The bridge is back on them like the F-7,10,12! We know Gibson held onto parts and mandolins only to be sold or used through the 1930's, there is proof in some models! I'm with Gary V. on the theory that if Loar stayed these TL's would be mandolas, I believe it's very interesting and have no problem with a conversion being done if that's what you want to do. I do!

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Roman Pekar

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## testore

https://shop.gryphonstrings.com/prod...dola-h0-50763-

A most excellent call bluegrasser78 !  The f holes are identical to the TL’s. These are without a doubt holdover parts from ‘24. At some point they had to know the TL was a commercial flop. There’s no guarantee they used up all the Mandola bodies for TL experiments.

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William Smith

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