# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Afraid to play for others - advice?

## CSIMelissa

I hate to admit it, but the thought of playing for other people scares the pie out of me. Any advice? Granted I know there's the obvious thing - just do it - but seriously, does anyone have any helpful thoughts/experience on how to get over this?

Public speaking is fine.  I've done radio and television interviews a million times for the books I write and I'm fine with that too.  Put my mando in my hands and tell me to play for others and I can't function or play worth a darn. (Especially since some of my friends are professional musicians and they want to hear me play.) I'm just too scared of screwing up and looking stupid.  

 :Confused:

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Skylance

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## Eric C.

Professional musicians screw up. They also won't look down on others that play music. Musicians are some of the most supportive people out there when it comes to other musicians.

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CSIMelissa, 

harryt8, 

Skylance

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## onassis

I think the very important first step is playing music WITH others instead of FOR them. Cooperative and collaborative music making is a very gratifying thing, and does wonders in building one's confidence. Being creative as part of a group is SO much easier than trying to go it alone, and is (IMHO) much more rewarding. It's a great way to get some experience in a fairly low pressure situation.

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CSIMelissa, 

farmerjones, 

Perry Babasin

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## CSIMelissa

> I think the very important first step is playing music WITH others instead of FOR them. Cooperative and collaborative music making is a very gratifying thing, and does wonders in building one's confidence. Being creative as part of a group is SO much easier than trying to go it alone, and is (IMHO) much more rewarding. It's a great way to get some experience in a fairly low pressure situation.


Thanks. I’ve found a jam group that meets twice a week in my town so I plan on going there soon. I am self taught but I’m starting professional lessons next week and after a lesson or two I’m going to the jam for sure.

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## Bertram Henze

The fact that public speaking is no problem is a dead giveaway: in emergencies, your declarative memory takes over (good at thinking and speaking, but not for playing music). Playing is for procedural memory (fast and precise, but unable to explain what it does). From that follows the main hint: think not! i.e. no words, no pictures. You have to trust your proc. mem. to do what it has practised, without bugging it with questions (can you do that? are you sure? tell me again what the first chord was etc). Don't be a pesky passenger, you're not in control during this ride. In other words: make your peace with screwing up and looking stupid.

Read Sian Beilock's "Choke".

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alfie, 

Bill Baldridge, 

CSIMelissa, 

DataNick, 

Emmett Marshall, 

farmerjones, 

harryt8, 

Ky Slim, 

Sevelos

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## catmandu2

Well, you're not alone CSIM-  it took me lots of tries, and failures, to figure out what I was doing with performing.  (One of my problems was trying to perform classical music - I'm just not a rote player...always spoke off the cuff too)

Yes, make mistakes, feel awkward.  If you do it enough, you may cultivate some nice improvisational skills too  :Smile:  .. performing is nothing if not "thinking on one's feet"

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CSIMelissa

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## catmandu2

And BTW - of course I still make plenty of mistakes - every time I perform.  But my approach is sometimes total seat-of-the-pants anyway (it's what I'm best at).  For me, the trick was to develop skills in recovering - I cant resist just going where I feel - and that's a recipe for disaster ..   :Smile:  ; if I don't want to crash, I have to figure a way to extricate myself: music ensues to the degree that I'm able to work it out .. but it doesn't work all the time!

Aside from figuring out how to manage all the common impediments and inhibitions, think about crafting the type of environment, repertoire and playing that you're best at -

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Phil Goodson

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## spufman

Rather than worrying about playing a tune precisely as you practice it alone, listen to what the others are playing and strive to add color to what's going on. Your colors will soon get bolder and before long you will be where the whole needs you to be. You've invested a lot of yourself getting to this point... ease up and slip in.

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catmandu2, 

CSIMelissa

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## Beanzy

I'm a weird hybrid in terms of being able to play out for others. I happily play anywhere with others, even if I'm going to be soloing or leading in a classical or band scenario, improvising etc. but get me to kick off a simple tune solo and it's as likely not to happen as happen. So I'm getting together regularly with one musician for Bluegrass and one for Irish Trad. We alternate choosing and working up tunes & songs. The one who chooses leads with the other backing. 

The idea is that when we have spent time working something up, then we know it works and there's a sense that the other person is counting on you carrying it, so there's less likelyhood of bottling out and you can't claim it'll be no good because the other person knows it's good to go. So guilt & a sense of responsibility to the other push aside the doubts and off we roll. It's wotking well so far. Maybe try to get a picking partner to get your back like that and see if it helps push past the doubts.

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## catmandu2

> Rather than worrying about playing a tune precisely as you practice it alone, listen to what the others are playing and strive to add color to what's going on. Your colors will soon get bolder and before long you will be where the whole needs you to be. You've invested a lot of yourself getting to this point... ease up and slip in.


An excellent simile. 

Use the assets of the instrument - hide in the mix and flourish when the inspiration strikes ..

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## farmerjones

> . . make your peace with screwing up and looking stupid.


I really like this. 

You can start slow/small, by getting together with only one person, then add. 
But really turn down the (for lack of a better word) caring, and ENJOY. If bad note is played, nobody dies. And lastly, don't stop to fix it. Bad, bad habit. Just mow over those clams. You may be the only one that noticed it anyway.

That caring stuff is for practice time. Reward yourself by letting yourself PLAY.

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CSIMelissa, 

Kennyz55

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## Mark Wilson

> I'm just too scared of screwing up and looking stupid.


I just listened to an NPR segment about a guy who was terrified by the idea of rejection.  The cure (recommended by his doc) was to put himself in position to be rejected once a day.  He started out by offering passing strangers gum. 

You could do the same by offering to play mandolin to strangers.  I'm thinking a couple weeks in and playing for 'friends' will seem like a fun thing to do.

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CSIMelissa

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## CSIMelissa

Thanks all.  I think starting lessons next week and sitting down WITH someone I don't know will help me get ready for playing for/with folks I do know.  I intend to talk to him about my anxieties too.

I DO need to get out of the habit of stopping when I mess up.

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## fatt-dad

on the journey to excellent, enjoy medium!  I know that I'm stuck at some medium level of competency. I'm o.k. with that.  I screw up (usually clams).  I am to the point where I can keep a steady beat.  Mostly 'cause I tap my foot.

I find that it helps to be very intentional when performing.  Don't start too fast. Be very intentional on the starting beat and notes. Get some inertia and embrace the flubs - just keep playing!  When the tempo varies, it's hard for the listener.

So, make a video of yourself.  Here's me playing the treble line of Bach's Invention XIII.  The only thing that salvages this is keeping the tempo (best I can that is). There are all sorts of flubs.  I also have a duet partner, so I've pushed through the vulnerability of just rehearsal!  We've begun performing a very small events and such.  It was baby steps, but a fun walk!



f-d

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Astro, 

Ky Slim, 

Robert B

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## CSIMelissa

> on the journey to excellent, enjoy medium!  I know that I'm stuck at some medium level of competency. I'm o.k. with that.  I screw up (usually clams).  I am to the point where I can keep a steady beat.  Mostly 'cause I tap my foot.
> 
> I find that it helps to be very intentional when performing.  Don't start too fast. Be very intentional on the starting beat and notes. Get some inertia and embrace the flubs - just keep playing!  When the tempo varies, it's hard for the listener.
> 
> So, make a video of yourself.  Here's me playing the treble line of Bach's Invention XIII.  The only thing that salvages this is keeping the tempo (best I can that is). There are all sorts of flubs.  I also have a duet partner, so I've pushed through the vulnerability of just rehearsal!  We've begun performing a very small events and such.  It was baby steps, but a fun walk!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> f-d


Nice video!  :Popcorn:   It's something I'll have to try and granted I've only been playing for a year or so but I think you did a fine job.  As I said above, playing through the flubs is something I really, really need to work on.  Thanks.

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## David Lewis

no one dies if you mess up. No one gets hurt. In an informal situation, no one really cares. In a formal situation, many of the audience don't notice.

Play as well as you can, play boldly and play like you invented it. Always strive to improve: but always remember - we PLAY instruments, we don't WORK them (yes, some of us do WORK them, but you know what i'm saying).

As you get better, you'll build confidence. As you build confidence, you'll get better.

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CSIMelissa, 

Londy

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## avaldes

Melissa, fatt-dad had an excellent suggestion. I have been doing self-videos because for me, it introduces many of the tensions of a live performance. For that reason alone, I would suggest taking videos of yourself (I recall one video of yours some time back, with a bird as a line dancer). Other than that, find jam groups as suggested and try a couple of open mic settings if you can find them.
I have some tricks when I do an occasional guitar (or recently, guitar and mando) set. Do a quick warmup on stage if you can (some riffs and then tune, or pretend to tune). If there is a sound person, talk to them as you do this. Have a simple, short piece that you can do, just to get you into the performance. This gets me past the problem I often have when I take the stage, which is that my hands just seem to land in the wrong place on the instrument.

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CSIMelissa

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## JeffD

Playing for others? Eh.

Playing with others, that is magic.

Here is my advice. Don't.

Just don't. Don't play for folks that don't appreciate you and the effort it is taking to play for them. Just politely decline.

That is the beauty of playing with others - they either are, or already have paid their dues - the dues you are paying. So they understand and have been there. 

The casual family member being polite and not particularly interested, or the audience member who can't tell the mandolin from the guitar with three guesses, they want you to put out the effort for them. The heck with that I say. 

Play with others, sure, its worth it and its appreciated. Playing for others, wait till you have a CD you can guilt them into buying.

Your professional musician friends - well say you will be happy if they would join you on something simple. Let them be invested, so its not one batter against the whole other team.

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Al Bergstein, 

CSIMelissa, 

Emmett Marshall, 

Harold The Barrel, 

harryt8, 

Perry Babasin

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## catmandu2

Or, only agree to play the fiddle or accordian for them - (wink) ... or electric guitar, or drums.. 




> An excellent simile. 
> .


I guess it's rather a metaphor

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CSIMelissa

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## jshane

> I DO need to get out of the habit of stopping when I mess up.



Yes.

 Actually, even better is to capitalize on a "mess-up".  That is, turn the "mess-up" into a new "exploration" via the process of recovery. 

If you dont stop, no one will know there was a "mess-up". If you continue on AND use the "mess-up" creatively....well, who knows what might happen!

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CSIMelissa

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## Bertram Henze

> The casual family member being polite and not particularly interested, or the audience member who can't tell the mandolin from the guitar with three guesses, they want you to put out the effort for them.


I'd not put these two in the same category. You don't have to understand the technical details of the music (including instrument names) to appreciate it. So I'll say leave the first group alone but respect the second (especially if they have paid to hear you).

It's a common misconception that you are playing the instrument and the instrument in turn plays the music. In an ideal performance, the music plays the instrument, and the music is you. And an appreciating audience will notice that. It's not the player's role to magnanimously dole out magic to muggles at his own discretion; instead, the player is just another humble servant to the music - all you have to do is not stand in the way. Remembering that will help in a spotlight situation when the audience looks at you with expectant, beaming faces: you are not the superstar they have come for; the music is.

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CSIMelissa, 

farmerjones, 

Londy

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## fatt-dad

sometimes, too, I just walk about the yard and play my mandolin.  Something about being engaged with other stuff, sort of forces the muscle memory to engage in a new way.  One time when I was having similar struggles a dude told me, don't forget to breath.  I mean, Duh?  But, there is some wisdom in being mindful of other stuff even when playing.

f-d

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CSIMelissa

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## Ed Goist

This may sound oversimplified, but I think there's a lot to it...

You say that _"public speaking is fine"_. This is because, at some point in your past, public speaking became one of "your things". In other words, it became a part of your character that you don't even think about...You just do it.

You need to turn "playing the mandolin" into one of your "things", so that it is not some special activity you do, but part of who you are. When you do this, the anxiety will, for the most part, disappear.

I think the best way to do this is to play as much as possible, and as often as possible with other musicians.

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CSIMelissa, 

Harold The Barrel, 

Kay Kirkpatrick, 

Londy

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## CSIMelissa

> This may sound oversimplified, but I think there's a lot to it...
> 
> You say that _"public speaking is fine"_. This is because, at some point in your past, public speaking became one of "your things". In other words, it became a part of your character that you don't even think about...You just do it.
> 
> You need to turn "playing the mandolin" into one of your "things", so that it is not some special activity you do, but part of who you are. When you do this, the anxiety will, for the most part, disappear.
> 
> I think the best way to do this is to play as much as possible, and as often as possible with other musicians.


I reminded myself last night when I was playing at home that public speaking used to scare me to death and it doesn't now so eventually this will all be behind me.

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## CSIMelissa

One of the things I'm going to talk to my instructor about next Thursday is how and what to do in a jam setting and soon I'm going to GO to one of the sessions that's local to ease my anxieties too.  Thanks to everyone for your input and I'll post after my "first" jam session. :-)

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jshane

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## Rosemary Philips

I think most musicians enjoy the fact that someone is making the effort to learn an instrument and so it's a pleasure to listen to someone who's just starting out. I used to be extremely shy and uncomfortable about playing in from of anyone and then I realized that I like listening to someone who's not perfect--but who is trying--so why should others not feel the same way about my playing? That helped me a lot. Most people are very supportive. Also, you'll screw up plenty in front of your instructor, so that will help... :Grin:

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CSIMelissa, 

Ed Goist

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## Jeff Mando

I don't know if you drink beer, but now would be a good time to start.  Seriously, I slam a couple bottles before going on stage and it helps.  I'm not talking about sipping them, either.  Drink two in about 10 minutes and it will help a lot.  You "want" the buzz.  I say this as a person who was shy to an almost clinical level until I was about 25.  But, two beers and now I'm Ricky Skaggs! (in my dreams!)

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## Bertram Henze

> I say this as a person who was shy to an almost clinical level until I was about 25.  But, two beers and now I'm Ricky Skaggs! (in my dreams!)


Potentially dangerous - depending of what type of person you are:
- you can use the stuff to get you started, then learn to be Ricky Skaggs by yourself and leave the stuff behind: good on you.
- or... you need more and more of the stuff to be Ricky Skaggs, and without it you can't even hold your instrument: sorry for you.
Fear of performing is fear of life; it's more than just an inconvenience to be drugged away like a headache. It's life's way of telling you that you've got to rise up and change.

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## Tobin

> I don't know if you drink beer, but now would be a good time to start.  Seriously, I slam a couple bottles before going on stage and it helps.  I'm not talking about sipping them, either.  Drink two in about 10 minutes and it will help a lot.  You "want" the buzz.  I say this as a person who was shy to an almost clinical level until I was about 25.  But, two beers and now I'm Ricky Skaggs! (in my dreams!)


LOL, I hate to admit it, but I use this strategy on occasion too.  Well, I wouldn't call it a strategy _per se_, but if I'm playing in a venue that serves alcohol, I'll have some before playing or between tunes.  I'm not much of a drinker usually, but having a beer before I play in a public setting does help to get me relaxed and calm my nerves.  If I drink enough to get buzzy or light-headed, my playing suffers, but I feel more confident and easygoing when I have a beer or two in me, and it lets me play more fluidly without my nerves or muscles getting all twitchy and jerky like they tend to do when I'm nervous.  I tend to suffer from getting "the shakes" when I'm nervous, and a modest amount of alcohol (even just half a beer) can tend to relax me enough to get past it.

Or maybe my playing isn't really better at all, and the only real effect is that I just don't care as much about the little mistakes and imprecisions in my playing.  Either way, it makes it more enjoyable to play in front of a crowd.  Adult beverages are great for socialization and reducing inhibitions, but of course they should be used responsibly.  And only when socially appropriate (i.e. don't guzzle a six-pack before playing a gospel tune for the special music in church). 

I would hesitate to rely on this as a crutch, or a necessity for public performing.  But when in the right setting, it's a useful tool.

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## Jeff Mando

To clarify:  I recommend this "tip" in the same spirit I would recommend a favorite pick or set of strings--to improve your playing.  I also mention two beers, not 10.....I also mention this as a non-drinker, the same way I would recommend cough syrup once a year if you have a tickle in your throat during a cold...I would not recommend doing this if you are a recovering alcoholic, of course...but I think we all understand that.  Just trying to be helpful.

I guess as a disclaimer--probably not a good idea to operate any heavy machinery, as well.  Nothing heavier than a mandolin.  :Grin:

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## Gary Leonard

> I hate to admit it, but the thought of playing for other people scares the pie out of me. Any advice?


Eat cake, you don't want to waste good pie like that.

Seriously, I don't know if I can add much to what has already been said, but I like the idea of getting out of the habit of stopping, and restarting a measure when you mess up. I think that is fine when in a one on one with a teacher, another player when learning the tune, but when performing that tune, keep on moving. Mistakes will be made. 

I do not mind playing for my family, friends, or even if complete strangers are around when I am playing outside. But put me on a "stage" setting, and just like speaking, I will freeze. Put me in a group setting with mandolins peers, say we are going to go around the circle and do X, where I am not completely comfortable with X, and I am like a deer in headlights.  I hope playing more with others will help me with this, as well as becoming more proficient with my instrument.

Gary

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CSIMelissa

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## Tobin

> Seriously, I don't know if I can add much to what has already been said, but I like the idea of getting out of the habit of stopping, and restarting a measure when you mess up. I think that is fine when in a one on one with a teacher, another player when learning the tune, but when performing that tune, keep on moving. Mistakes will be made.


I just wanted to jump on the bandwagon with this too.  Stopping and re-playing when you make a mistake is a common newbie issue, and it becomes a habit that's very hard to break.  I completely understand how it happens, as your brain requires continuity of the learned pattern in order to keep going.  When you make a mistake, you feel like you need to get that pattern correct so you can keep going.  But one of the things you just HAVE to learn is to blow through a mistake and get back on track.

In teaching my wife to play the mandolin, this was one area where she really struggled for a while.  And she still occasionally will start a measure over again when she makes a mistake.  It's frustrating when I'm trying to play backup/rhythm with her, as I have to try to find where she went, and get back in sync with her.  You don't want to make others at a jam (or even one-on-one) do this.  It's bad musical manners!  The general rule is that when there's more than one person playing, the music is going to keep going, either with or without you.  You'd better learn how to keep going with everyone else, even when you make a boo-boo.  

It does take some practice to learn how to mentally log that you've made a mistake, and find the next opportunity to jump back into the pattern you're supposed to be following.  Either on the next pick stroke, or the next measure, or even the next phrase.  But jumping back in is a crucial, yet under-emphasized, skill that new players must master before being able to play with others.

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CSIMelissa, 

jshane, 

Londy

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## bigskygirl

Try either videos or just audio recording, I record on my smartphone.  It's an eye opener for sure....in a good way, sometimes I think to myself "hey, that wasn't as bad as I thought" and other times....well...it was as bad as I thought...ha

I started going to jams, where others mess up, and really knowing the material even if it's just a few tunes know them inside out.  Two things happen, you see others are not perfect and you have a tune or two you can pull out and play very well....you'll probably still make mistakes but by then you're having fun and it doesn't matter.

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CSIMelissa

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## stevedenver

> I hate to admit it, but the thought of playing for other people scares the pie out of me. Any advice? Granted I know there's the obvious thing - just do it - but seriously, does anyone have any helpful thoughts/experience on how to get over this?
> 
> Public speaking is fine.  I've done radio and television interviews a million times for the books I write and I'm fine with that too.  Put my mando in my hands and tell me to play for others and I can't function or play worth a darn. (Especially since some of my friends are professional musicians and they want to hear me play.) I'm just too scared of screwing up and looking stupid.


so, if you do public speaking, as do I , as well as trials, 
what is the key? for me, its knowing what I need/want to communicate, so I have a direction, a clear mental roadmap, and mental rehearsal. a beginning a middle and an end.
that's all there really is. you don't have to deal with questions, unforeseen bombs, interruptions (other than your own)

soooo, what I might suggest to you
first choose 2-3 songs, and think about them, mood, tempo, what lights you up...ie you dig the song ,  etc.

*memorize them...this is imho crucial, you MUST know where to go . aim for, no tab, no printed lyrics*.

I suggest first learning to sing the melody and chord along-this for me, does more than anything to understand and feel the song, to think about the lyrics,what they mean, how to emphasize them  and how to communicate feeling in your singing. Once you have this, ie the chords and melody, you are 90% home.

*then, practice them relentlessly, daily, 
use a metronome*---why? to keep time, but also, to make you play all the way through, and get back on beat/ track should you miss a note.  

next, Find or pick out a really simple melody line-your own, or, tab.

I think we all learn songs sequentially, and a help is to learn them in smaller segments so you can get right back on track WHEN you inevitably play something less than perfectly. know too which chord youre on within the solo/break.

and....practice them in 'segments', so if you get derailed, you can find your place. that is, you don't need to start from the beginning to make them flow and to know where to go. you can start from the middle, 1/4 way, 2/3 etc. ie learn musical phrases in the song.

*then find a guitarist to accompany you*....this is really important, because imho, it adds a very real distraction, and skill, ie now you have to listen as well as play, and the transition is ....sometimes, significant.

when you change your surroundings, ie mental distractions, listening, nerves, etc, you may well screw up....your mind may go blank, etc. DONT WORRY about this.  it may happen and that's all, you simply chord along and smile.  

like public speaking, theres always that first time.
I try to visualize the circumstances, visit the court room, lecture area first, so it isn't strange to me, and I can adjust for 'stuff'.  I know my stuff cold.  even then, it can become foggy for a few minutes.

find a friendly guitarist, and simply, ask that person to help you, not to play with you, but to allow you to play with an accompanist on those songs you have mastered.

Melissa, you CAN do this. 
The key to success is preparation.
Take small steps.

another tack, would be to find a small or better, large, friendly jam, introduce yourself as a beginner, with or without mando in tow, and watch, then come back and try to chord along, etc, baby steps.  embrace being a wallflower until you feel good. you don't have to solo. just chord along.

my own thought on how to be better loved, as a mando player, is to be able to sing a few songs, and chord along.  

My voice isn't great, but IF I can carry the tune, and sing with 'command' ( ie no shrinking violet since it anchors the song and its energy,  and know the lyrics dead cold0, then I am contributing to the jam, and I am the leader, for that song.

No need to solo, simply sing, and allow breaks in between verses.  Choose 2-3 chord songs.

The value of singing, and its real, is that when you sing, the tempo and song march relentlessly forward, and you MUST keep up or come in at the right place with your mando.....ie you have a built in metronome of sorts, singing the melody.  Try this at home with your 2-3 songs.  Play them until you awake singing them .....you WILL succeed.


what I found liberating....not to be flippant, is to simply try, smile and not care...be lighthearted, know youre a beginner and let go, making a mistake is not important, participating IS. I screw up all the time at jams, because I am always experimenting, on the fly. Sometimes I do great, sometimes I almost miss every damned note-part of this is practice, mental engagement, energy, but mostly its about consistency.  OTOH, I always have fun.  Often I am playing songs I don't know and haven't heard. I figure out the chords, and then give it a go.

If I played the same stuff all the time, it would be much 'better'.  OTOH, and my point, I have never had anyone give me 'stinkeye' or otherwise a bad vibe.  

Its like having a conversation and either being funny and able to kid, or being dead serious.  Until youre being paid, its for your joy, your experience, your benefit.  Know that you will, at some time in the future, be able to mentor and give to someone in your shoes right now.

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## CSIMelissa

> I don't know if you drink beer, but now would be a good time to start.  Seriously, I slam a couple bottles before going on stage and it helps.  I'm not talking about sipping them, either.  Drink two in about 10 minutes and it will help a lot.  You "want" the buzz.  I say this as a person who was shy to an almost clinical level until I was about 25.  But, two beers and now I'm Ricky Skaggs! (in my dreams!)


I actually find that if I have a drink I play WORSE so that is off the table for me. LOL

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## jaycat

What Steve said.

And remember, we are all beginners at _something_. There are things that you are better at than Chris Thile.

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## JeffD

My whole point is that playing for other people is a giving thing, its something you give to someone else, not something they take. Sometimes the asker doesn't realize the amount of work and effort involved and is just trying to show interest in your world. Not that that is bad, but it doesn't obligate you either.

Play for others when you have some mileage behind the instrument and feel like giving, out of your own free will or generosity, when you know the audience really wants to hear what you have done and will appreciate how much of yourself you have put into it, and when you have chops to show them. You may be just as nervous, (because you always want to do well), but you won't probably be as scared.

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## JeffD

Then again, maybe I have a bad attitude about audiences.  :Smile:

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Bertram Henze, 

jshane

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## farmerjones

> My whole point is that playing for other people is a giving thing, its something you give to someone else, not something they take. Sometimes the asker doesn't realize the amount of work and effort involved and is just trying to show interest in your world. Not that that is bad, but it doesn't obligate you either.


I'm glad somebody else brought up the gift giving. You've stated it better than I have, in the past.

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## Tx Fiddler

There are so many layers to this subject. December of this year will mark 32 years I've been playing fiddle, and during those years I have at times been incredibly intimidated by other talented musicians which of course led to a fear of playing with these musicians, which leads to mistakes. Over the last 6-7- years I've worked on a professional level with some musicians who were/are absolute masters at what they do and are in complete control of their instruments. Therefore I've had to come to grips with my own talent and abilities. So here are some random thoughts and ramblings....

 The first and most important thing I can tell you is don't take your self esteem from your talent as a musician. No matter how good you are or how good you become, there's always going to be someone who's a _little bit better_. Most all of us make our primary living doing something at which we excel or are at least competent, other than music. I have to remind myself of that frequently..."I'm good at other things." My music is first for fun, second for greenbacks!

  Many times as musicians, we play to impress the musicians around us, which is a mistake. Rather we should play either for our own enjoyment or when we're playing for an audience, for their enjoyment, or both! That leads to my next point...

  99% of the folks in an audience have no real idea what a truly talented musician sounds like. I've lost count of the times over the last three decades someone asked "..hey have you ever heard ol' so-and-so play a (fill in the instrument)? Boy they can REALLY tear it up!" Then I hear ol' 'so-and-so' and find they're just a scratch musician, but they have fun at what they do, so folks enjoy them. What sells to an audience or the people around you is ATTITUDE. I've worked with UBER talented, a-hole musicians who could wreck a band with their whining because someone missed a chord change, didn't play the melody note for note, didn't play the kick off to a song "like the record", their sour-puss demeanor, etc. Audiences are aware of this more than most musicians realize, I think. Smiles and having fun will cover a multitude of musical errors.

   If you screw up, DON'T STOP. Remember, a bad note or a missed chord change is but a fleeting moment in time and will very soon be forgotten. If you do mess up, smile and move on!

   Last, don't try to play at a level that's beyond your ability. I have had the pleasure over the last year or so of playing a few jobs with former fiddler/mandolinist for Asleep at the Wheel, Jason Roberts. He's one of those rare musicians who is in complete control of his instrument 100% of the time and plays with almost unimaginable talent and proficiency. Recently, in casual conversation about playing he told me very simply "Less is more.", and he's right!

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Ed Goist, 

jaycat, 

k0k0peli, 

Londy, 

spufman

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## jshane

> "Less is more."


Boy is THAT ever the truth... and I cant believe how long it took me to finally get this.

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## Londy

There are two things people fear the most, public speaking and death. About a thousand years ago I had this public speaking fear and my new job was a trainer which would include public speaking at events. I got over this one way...I did it over and over. Now I'm a pro. There is no silver bullet. As Ed said, once playing becomes part of who you are and not a performance, it changes everything. Let the music take priority center stage and you are also there to enjoy it not be the focus of attention.

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Ed Goist

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## Bertram Henze

> There are two things people fear the most, public speaking and death.


So they say. For some inexplicable reason, however, given the choice, people always prefer public speaking. Hyde Park, London, UK has a place for them, as does the Jerry Springer Show.  :Cool:

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## Ed Goist

> ...snip... "Less is more."...snip...





> Boy is THAT ever the truth... snip...


Indeed! I was just having a conversation the other day with some other musicians about what makes someone a "great" guitar player, and we were talking about how, for the public at large, technical prowess is way down on the list of characteristics that define the "greatness" of a musician. To illustrate this, one of my buddies told the following joke:

Question: "Whose a better guitar player, Johnny Cash or Al Di Meola?" 
Most Common Answer: "Whose Al Di Meola?"

Keep it simple!  :Smile:  One need not play like Chris Thile to be a great performer.

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Londy

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## JeffD

> I don't know if you drink beer, but now would be a good time to start.


This is likely the all time greatest advice post on this site ever. Ever. Its hall of fame advice, applicable not just to this situation but universally.

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## JeffD

Seriously, to play mandolin while having had a drink or two, one has to practice playing mandolin having had a drink or two. 

After enthusiastic, if not systematic, research, I have found this to be true. 

The brain state has to be familiar to the task or something like that.

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## Londy

Oh but beer makes me feel like I'm playing like a rock star!   :Laughing:   :Mandosmiley:

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## allenhopkins

Play a bit *below* your skill level, if possible; material you find relatively familiar, "easy" and unchallenging.  The latest challenge your instructor gave you, is going to fall apart in front of your audience when your "stage fright" kicks in.

My rule of thumb is that I can do about 75% of what I do in my best rehearsal/practice, in front of an audience.  So if I'm playing at that 75% level, let me select repertoire that I can do competently using 75% of what I know and can play.

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Mark Wilson

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## Chuck Hooper

After taking mandolin lessons for about a year,i decided to play in the early summer recital held this past weekend in an "old school"refurbished theatre...the type with a large stage area in front of the screen.there were about 60 musicians (piano,french horns,guitars,vocal etc.i was the only mandolin)i was doing "rocky top" and "blowing in the wind".my "gig" was about at the half way point of the show.i was cool as a cucumber at the start.they would call about 6 people at a time to come down to the "bull pen" and get ready to go on stage.as it got closer to my time i began to get nervous.i should point out that i have 35 years of getting up in front of high school seniors to fill their heads full of american history in which i was total master of my domain.on stage with 300 strangers all focused on me with a musical instrument i was still learning was an entirely different thing...long story short...i soldiered on,made a few mistakes(i think i was the first mandolin most of them had ever heard)i got so "into" the music that i actually forgot about the audience. got a standing"O".and exited the stage like i knew what i was doing...can't wait to do it again!!

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## Londy

> After taking mandolin lessons for about a year,i decided to play in the early summer recital held this past weekend in an "old school"refurbished theatre...the type with a large stage area in front of the screen.there were about 60 musicians (piano,french horns,guitars,vocal etc.i was the only mandolin)i was doing "rocky top" and "blowing in the wind".my "gig" was about at the half way point of the show.i was cool as a cucumber at the start.they would call about 6 people at a time to come down to the "bull pen" and get ready to go on stage.as it got closer to my time i began to get nervous.i should point out that i have 35 years of getting up in front of high school seniors to fill their heads full of american history in which i was total master of my domain.on stage with 300 strangers all focused on me with a musical instrument i was still learning was an entirely different thing...long story short...i soldiered on,made a few mistakes(i think i was the first mandolin most of them had ever heard)i got so "into" the music that i actually forgot about the audience. got a standing"O".and exited the stage like i knew what i was doing...can't wait to do it again!!


That's what I'm talkin about!!!  Awesome!

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## bigskygirl

> Play a bit *below* your skill level, if possible; material you find relatively familiar, "easy" and unchallenging.  The latest challenge your instructor gave you, is going to fall apart in front of your audience when your "stage fright" kicks in.
> 
> My rule of thumb is that I can do about 75% of what I do in my best rehearsal/practice, in front of an audience.  So if I'm playing at that 75% level, let me select repertoire that I can do competently using 75% of what I know and can play.


Yes, I always practice with the metronome faster and....I have a ham sandwich before I play.... :Wink:

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allenhopkins

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## Tobin

> Play a bit *below* your skill level, if possible; material you find relatively familiar, "easy" and unchallenging.  The latest challenge your instructor gave you, is going to fall apart in front of your audience when your "stage fright" kicks in.
> 
> My rule of thumb is that I can do about 75% of what I do in my best rehearsal/practice, in front of an audience.  So if I'm playing at that 75% level, let me select repertoire that I can do competently using 75% of what I know and can play.


Yeah, 75% sounds about right.  I'll start to think I'm really good when I play at the house, and then I try the same thing in a public setting, at the same speed, and it just doesn't work.

What I do find, though, is that when I'm playing in front of others, I get into the "zone" after about an hour.  I guess that's how long it takes for my jitters to subside, and for me to get nice and warmed up, loose, and comfortable in that setting.  My tone improves, and I can start playing more smoothly and quickly.  That's when I can start to break past that 75% mark and start to play more like I know I can.  So it's probably a good strategy for public playing: start out slow and easy, then ramp it up as you find yourself getting more fluid.

But - I would make a distinction between playing "as a performance for an audience" and "within a group in a jam/session".  For the former, it obviously makes sense to stay within one's comfort zone to avoid crashing and burning.  For the latter, I think occasionally crashing and burning is an important and necessary thing.  Assuming you're playing with friends who are supportive and forgiving, it's the best way to get better.  Not only better at playing, but better at playing with others.  Learning how to crash and burn (and survive it) is very, very important.  And you just can't learn it without actually crashing and burning.  If you always play below your skill level with others, you'll never increase your skill level in that environment.

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## farmerjones

> But - I would make a distinction between playing "as a performance for an audience" and "within a group in a jam/session".


I understand your reasoning, within the scenario. But I think eventually you want there to be no distinction between jamming and gigging. Sure there's always new stuff to learn/steal. And it's not like I have it mastered, but I want the audience to be as engaged as fellow jammers. 
 As always, Alan has a real good point about not over extending. But still there are chances I'll take, and those that I won't. Our gigs are much like jams, as it goes around,  every player can call a tune in turn. You never know what's coming. But it's a good chance you've done it before. But hey, if not, we can fake to the point of acceptability. A) It keeps you honest, and on your toes. B) There's no build up of ego or guile. There's just no room for it. It depends on the gig, but I have explained our format to the audience. Because I think there's a fascination about jams to the uninitiated. I remember it myself.

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## Randy Linam

I am certainly in no position to be giving mandolin instruction, or in your case advise. However, as a Dale Carnegie graduate with highest honors I can offer this advise.

As humans we are (or should be) our own greatest critic. As my grandfather taught me; "Never allow someone to expect more from you than you expect from yourself. Always give more than what is expected." With that in mind I will offer the following advise. Whenever you are playing before others, *play to and for yourself* knowing that this will translate to your best performance for your audience. When you have done this you have done all you can do.

I hope I made sense and provided help,
Randy

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Denman John

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## Bertram Henze

> Whenever you are playing before others, *play to and for yourself* knowing that this will translate to your best performance for your audience.


Sounds comforting. One good way to practise that attitude is recording yourself and listening to the recordings afterwards.

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## hatta

> When you make a mistake, you feel like you need to get that pattern correct so you can keep going.  But one of the things you just HAVE to learn is to blow through a mistake and get back on track.


But if you just keep going when you make a mistake, don't you reinforce the mistake?




> You'd better learn how to keep going with everyone else, even when you make a boo-boo.


How do you learn to do this?  What exercises would you suggest?  When I flub a note, the result is total paralysis.  I have to start from the top, or the muscle memory just doesn't kick in.  




> But jumping back in is a crucial, yet under-emphasized, skill that new players must master before being able to play with others.


Exactly why I don't play with others.  I have no idea how to practice for the unpredictable.

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## Beanzy

> But if you just keep going when you make a mistake, don't you reinforce the mistake?


Just make a note of it in your head then later when you practice isolate just the problematic parts to sort those. Most people will play through a tune a few times just to get a feel for where the knobbly bits are. Then you isolate those and practice correcting those. Then you play through and this time you play the corrected bit. 

By playing through the tune without hanging up on the mistake and thus playing it repeatedly you avoid reinforcing the error in the context of the tune. By isolating it in practice and zooming in on how and why it goes wrong you learn what needs to be untangled to play it correctly. Many beginners think that practice is just repeatedly playing through a whole piece and somehow it will come out ok eventually, obviously it won't. So this is one of those areas where you need to be able to play past an error when playing through a tune, but zoom in in great detail when analysing and correcting and have the hunger to get it right by repeatedly unpicking and practicing the problems until you actively correct them.
So when you perform you won't be in practice mode but you're likely to know where you went wrong when you think back on the performance and that would definitely flag itself up as something to work on in your practicing.

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## EdHanrahan

> Exactly why I don't play with others.  I have no idea how to practice for the unpredictable.


Yeah but...  That's why playing in a _casual_ jam session is so good for you: nobody expects perfection, and all of them have been where you currently are.  Nobody is going to point fingers at you and criticize.  If they did and were honest, they'd have to say:  "Oooh, you're as bad as I used to be, and sometimes still am."

"Practicing for the unpredictable" is something that professionals might consider worrying about but probably don't, because it's actually called "gaining experience".  We mere mortals are free to just grin, shrug our shoulders, and make a silly face that says: "Whoops!  I'll try to get it right next time."  And that would be a _prime_ example of gaining experience!

Do keep in mind that our mistakes are far more obvious to each of us than they are to anyone else.

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## Tobin

> But if you just keep going when you make a mistake, don't you reinforce the mistake?


If you're making the mistake over and over, and always blowing through it when you practice, yes.  You'd be reinforcing it.  I'm not saying you should always ignore mistakes.  But you do need to learn how to move past them when needed.  Otherwise you'll only be reinforcing your inability to get through a mistake.  

In other words, learning to make mistakes in public (which everyone does, even the professionals) is just as important, if not MORE important than learning how to play without mistakes.




> How do you learn to do this?  What exercises would you suggest?  When I flub a note, the result is total paralysis.  I have to start from the top, or the muscle memory just doesn't kick in.


I think your paralysis is the result of teaching yourself to be paralyzed by mistakes.  You've probably been thinking that you MUST correct the mistake before moving on, or you'll be reinforcing the mistake, as you mentioned.  But what you're really teaching yourself is to stop when your brain registers something that's not perfect.  

I don't necessarily have any exercises for this, since the point is to learn how to handle the unexpected.  And you can't very well create an exercise to practice unexpected things, or they won't be unexpected.  But what helped me get past the paralysis reaction is to start forcing my brain to think at least one or two notes ahead of where my hands are.  For one thing, it really helped my fluidity and speed in playing.  But it also helped me get past those hiccups.  By the time my hands have made the mistake, my brain is already past it, and can continue on with where it should be going.  Even when I do completely mess up, I try to jump back in at the beginning of the next measure, in a recognizable spot.  

So all I could recommend is that you keep doing what you're doing, but don't let the music stop any longer than it takes to find your way back in.  The best way to do this is to play along with a backing track or recording, where you can set it at a tempo you're comfortable with.  When you flub, the music you're playing along with doesn't stop.  It'll force you to learn how to come back in, and eventually not stop at all.





> Just make a note of it in your head then later when you practice isolate just the problematic parts to sort those. Most people will play through a tune a few times just to get a feel for where the knobbly bits are. Then you isolate those and practice correcting those. Then you play through and this time you play the corrected bit. 
> 
> By playing through the tune without hanging up on the mistake and thus playing it repeatedly you avoid reinforcing the error in the context of the tune. By isolating it in practice and zooming in on how and why it goes wrong you learn what needs to be untangled to play it correctly. Many beginners think that practice is just repeatedly playing through a whole piece and somehow it will come out ok eventually, obviously it won't. So this is one of those areas where you need to be able to play past an error when playing through a tune, but zoom in in great detail when analysing and correcting and have the hunger to get it right by repeatedly unpicking and practicing the problems until you actively correct them.
> So when you perform you won't be in practice mode but you're likely to know where you went wrong when you think back on the performance and that would definitely flag itself up as something to work on in your practicing.


Exactly.  When I find a tricky spot in a tune, I'll note it in my head and come back to it so I can isolate it and play it many, many times until I've developed a 'muscle memory' for that particular spot.  I turn it into an exercise.  It may take me 5 or 10 minutes.  But then I incorporate it back into the tune as a whole.

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## Mark Wilson

> How do you learn to do this?  What exercises would you suggest?  When I flub a note, the result is total paralysis.


Playing with a metronome can help you stay on the beat if you flub.  Backing tracks work even better.

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## farmerjones

One of the key things in all this advice about not stopping, is how we prioritize the beat. Slow down if you have to, but preserve the beat. You really only have to play one note correctly, that's the one at the end of the phrase. John Hartford is smiling down saying, "yeah buddy."  :Mandosmiley:

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## fatt-dad

do you ever play outside and wonder if somebody is listening?  Nobody in sight. . .

I sort of do this, as if nobody or anybody is listening.  My imaginary audience, that is.

f-d

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## JeffD

> But if you just keep going when you make a mistake, don't you reinforce the mistake?.


No, not at all. If you practice the mistake, well yea, that would be reinforcement.


Young children and some animals play a fantasy game where they figure if they can't see you, you can't see them. Its ridiculous, but likely some genetic starting point. 

Well it applies here. If you ignore your mistakes, just pretend they didn't happen, the audience likely will not notice them. I am constantly surprised how many screw-ups I make that nobody notices. (Makes me wonder sometimes, the justification for working so hard on getting it right.)

Seriously, the audience is not nearly aware of what you are doing and where you are going. If you just keep playing as if nothing happened, there is an excellent chance they will figure nothing happened.

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## Ed Goist

> One of the key things in all this advice about not stopping, is how we prioritize the beat. Slow down if you have to, but preserve the beat. You really only have to play one note correctly, that's the one at the end of the phrase. John Hartford is smiling down saying, "yeah buddy."


*^ - This!*  Best advice in a great thread filled with wonderful advice. Well done all.

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## Robert B

Shooting for perfection will invariably result in failure. Seek instead to learn from mistakes by seeing them as areas that are not yet flowing fluently. It is an indication to practice a particular passage slowly, gradually bringing the  speed up to tempo, until it becomes as natural as that which you play well. - and, Yes... play for your own enjoyment.... it is your passion for what you play that comes through even if your piece is riddled with fumbles.

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Jess L.

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## JeffD

> But if you just keep going when you make a mistake, don't you reinforce the mistake?
> .


That is the difference between practicing and playing. In practicing, you are supposed to stop and work out your mistakes. In practice, you can stop, start over, and over. 

But when playing, as in with or for others, you don't stop, you keep going as if you meant it.

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farmerjones, 

Jess L.

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## almeriastrings

Generally, a tune will go through several stages.... first, when you are just learning "where to put your fingers", and timing, pick moves, etc... then "smoothing it out" and getting it up to speed, then "revision and final polishing" where you _really_ start to get it down. At that point, your fingers should be pretty much sorted out and you should be concentrating on TONE, DYNAMICS and stuff like that. The key thing is that this is an active learning process. You have to take mental notes along the way, and learn to know what needs more work. That is the difference between positive, serious, constructive practice and mindless repetition!

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farmerjones, 

Flame Maple, 

Jess L.

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## Joel Glassman

> But if you just keep going when you make a mistake, don't you reinforce the mistake?


Definitely not. If you keep going, you are developing flexibility and improvisational skills. In other words "musicianship". Another way to do this is to learn variations. If one learns a tune as only 1 possible correct string of notes in sequence, playing a wrong note can throw the tune into "disarray". A tune learned with variations continually departs and recombines without losing the tune. This is part of the art or creativity of music and really fun to challenge yourself with.

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farmerjones, 

Jess L.

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## mandroid

Have had some friends I played with, in places that had no audience but the Bartender , a Week day evening

Like Little Irish village  Pubs, &  the Local Moose Lodge,  for   years .. was less playing _for_ them than playing _with_ them ..

Musical Small Talk.   sitting around a Table  , not facing outward.

 like  Hansel And Gretel, the bread crumbs you leave behind are done ..

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## sbhikes

I have to agree with everyone suggesting playing with others instead of for them.

The thing with playing WITH others is that you will inevitably end up playing a little bit FOR them eventually. By then these people are probably your friends and they're not going to chew you up and spit you out. Eventually maybe your group will play to an audience and you can start a tune in front of the audience and/or play a break in front of the audience if you play that kind of music.

It's really better in my opinion to try and learn tunes on the fly with a group if you have that sort of group available. This really helps you learn how to play the music rather than play some memorized notes that have "right notes" and "wrong notes."

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## Bertram Henze

> The thing with playing WITH others is that you will inevitably end up playing a little bit FOR them eventually. By then these people are probably your friends and they're not going to chew you up and spit you out.


...OTOH, your friends are probably the ones you _least_ want to disappoint  :Grin:

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## BrianWilliam

My favorite stage practice is on the street. Maybe you should busk a bit?

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## hatta

Playing with others seems far more terrifying than playing for others.

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## JeffD

> Playing with others seems far more terrifying than playing for others.


Well I don't know. I guess I can see that.

The thing is, however, it is *far* more rewarding. The others are entering into the activity with you. They are coconspirators. What ever acknowledgement or praise you get from coconspirators is likely to be more honest, more insightful, and more informed than that of an audience member who keeps thinking its a ukulele. They know what you are struggling with and are sympathetic.

And that all aside, coconspirators are taking a risk, two risks, one that they can keep up with you, and two that you will make them look good. Neither is guaranteed. They are putting up something, and so are more deserving of your efforts than a passive audience.

Of course if its a paying audience that is an entirely different matter.

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jshane

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## farmerjones

I went from not being able to play in a park if there was a dog walker 100 yards away. To being able to flop down the tailgate and play while my DW shops. I called it "bravery practice."
And think about it. One can really control one's audience interaction, more than you think. Some parks and parking lots are huge. You can park in the least trafficked area. Then gradually park closer. You'll be gaining bravery, and your significant other will thank you for it.

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## EdHanrahan

> Playing with others seems far more terrifying than playing for others.


Not at all...  As with many things in life, the others are too busy worrying about _their own_ mistakes to pay much attention to yours!

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Cobalt

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## hatta

> that you will make them look good. Neither is guaranteed. They are putting up something, and so are more deserving of your efforts than a passive audience.


That's the part that worries me.  What's the minimum skill set to show up at a jam and not ruin the fun for others?

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## Ausdoerrt

The only way to defeat stage fright is to play on stage as much as possible. At some point, you simply stop caring. At some later point, you realize that nobody in the audience really understands or cares what you play at all, so you're really only playing for yourelf  :Smile:

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## JeffD

> , you realize that nobody in the audience really understands or cares what you play at all,


This is much more often literally true, more so than most would care to admit.

Well I suppose in reality this is not an easily provable statement, because audiences, friends, family, will never admit it, but it is the impression I get.

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## Rodney Riley

> That's the part that worries me.  What's the minimum skill set to show up at a jam and not ruin the fun for others?


The day you opened the case and took it out for the first time. So far every body I've played music with has help me learn and encouraged me to play. Went to one jam and since no one had sheets with the chord progression.  I mostly did the percussive chop with the off beat the whole time. Was still a wonderful time. Helped me stay in time with the group. So I did benefit

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## hatta

What if they're playing in C and you don't know the F chord?  What if you can't chop yet?  What if you know the chords, but can't do changes at any reasonable speed?  

There has to be some sort of minimum skill set.

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## BrianWilliam

> There has to be some sort of minimum skill set.


See the previous post. I bet you can mute the strings and rake along.

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Rodney Riley

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## BrianWilliam

> The only way to defeat stage fright is to play on stage as much as possible.


This.

I'd like to add that I love karaoke.

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## JeffD

> That's the part that worries me.  What's the minimum skill set to show up at a jam and not ruin the fun for others?


You won't ruin it for the others at all, even if you just come to listen. You do what you can and sit out what you can't, and listen and learn and talk during the breaks and have a great time. Soon enough you will be trying more, and more, and the friendly pressure of your new found jam friends will motivate your practice at home, eventually you will look down and say "well I'll be darned, look at me, wow, go me."

At no place in the process will you be ruining it for the others.

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farmerjones, 

Rodney Riley

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## Tom C

'm 52, been playing since 1998 when I started taking lessons from Barry Mitterhoff. Not so much in last few years as I moved and it's a long drive. I never played in front of him except for lessons, but a couple of weeks ago I knew I was going to be playing on same venue as him playing with Jeff Scroggins. I was nervous up until the gig, but I nailed it. We played the same set at Albert Music Hall in front of an average crowd age of about 80 years and just felt like rubber the whole time. I'd say I didn't nail it.

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Gypsy

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## Rodney Riley

> What if they're playing in C and you don't know the F chord?  What if you can't chop yet?  What if you know the chords, but can't do changes at any reasonable speed?  
> 
> There has to be some sort of minimum skill set.


If I don't know the chord, I just mute all strings with my left hand and hit the strings with the pick. A percussive pop to practice timing. On some fast songs when I can't make all the chord changes. I just strum on count 1 and 3. Or hit the ones I can  :Whistling:  

Seems that there is someone helping another player before all start jamming. Or when others take a break, they teach a chord or chord progression to beginners. Other times I just sit back and enjoy. The more you're there and trying, the faster you will learn and be helping other newbies in the future. :Wink: 

If you have problems with impatient, uppity, egotistic musicians at a jam... leave.. it's not the place for you. Find another jam to attend.

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Gypsy

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## JeffD

> What if they're playing in C and you don't know the F chord?  What if you can't chop yet?  What if you know the chords, but can't do changes at any reasonable speed?  
> 
> There has to be some sort of minimum skill set.


You are not personally responsible for every note in the chord. There are others, banjos, guitars, other mandolins, who will obligingly play them. Just play the notes you can. 

My dirty little secret: I routinely chop three notes or even two note double stops and nobody has caught on. Their own ears plug in the missing notes.

Maybe you can't do the chords up to speed, but can you do every other chord up to speed, or the first chord of every phrase?

Regarding not knowing an F chord or chords in a strange key, there are various threads about double stops and chord positions that are a great help. I know very few chords really - I know a bunch of moveable shapes that can be used anywhere to create a three note chord or a double stop, in any key, for any note. Check out picklosers guide to double stops as a resource. Its amazing - but one can play in any key without having to know how to play in every key. In fact, (to my shame actually), I sometimes don't even know what key I am playing in, because I am doing the I chord shape, the IV chord shape and the V chord shape somewhere up the neck.

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Gypsy, 

hatta, 

Rodney Riley

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## Rodney Riley

When the local music store stays open late for jam sessions. They sometimes have 3 or 4 groups going at the same time. The "professionals" group together n play the insanely fast songs. While others play at breakneck speeds. All seem to mix n mingle thru the night with the others to play a favorite song or learn a new one. Always a lot of smiles and clapping.

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Gypsy

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## EdHanrahan

> ... There has to be some sort of minimum skill set.


My personal "minimum skill set" is to: A) recognize when I _don't_ know what's going on and then; B) refrain from making bad noises, at least that aren't fully drowned out by the nearest player.

This fits right in with others' thoughts on the simple percussive chopping of muted strings.  I've seen that employed by at least one high-level player/instructor who got "caught" in an on-stage jam session of fairly complicated music that was unfamiliar to him. Most in the audience had no idea that _he_ had no idea, and he at least "looked" like an activel participant while he deciphered how the tune was constructed.

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Gypsy, 

hatta

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## Sevelos

I usually drink a pint of beer before a performance. It gives me an "I don't care about messing-up, I'm here to enjoy" attitude.
Lately I discovered that drinking a pint of beer + a double-espresso before a performance takes me even further, putting me in a somewhat crazy "Hey crowd, look at me! I'm so cool!" mode.
Ok, so maybe I'm recommending a "use drugs" approach here, but hey - just the light, man's-best-friends Alcohol and Caffeine, and in moderate doses.
Also - after you perform for a few times and see that all went well, you'll generate self-confidence and it'll be easier for you later.

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## hatta

Went to a jam circle last week.  Wasn't feeling self conscious.  Did a lot of raking the strings in rhythm.  On my turn I confidently called Whiskey Before Breakfast, which I can play in my sleep.  Totally went to ####.  I don't think I made it through one measure without screwing up, and wasn't able to finish.  

Of course they were all very nice about it.  But I'm really discouraged.  How do I forget how to do something I've done a million times before, when I wasn't even really worried about performing well?

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## Bertram Henze

> How do I forget how to do something I've done a million times before, when I wasn't even really worried about performing well?


You didn't do it a million times in front of others, did you? We are wired to act different under different circumstances. Step 1: imagine company while practising. Step 2: video yourself while playing, i.e. play in your own company, THEN you can play the tune.

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Gypsy

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## Bill McCall

everybody seems to have this challenge or has had it. Here's an interesting discussion by an old pro.     http://www.drbanjo.com/instructional...r-pressure.php

Play as best you can at your level each time.  Its all you can do.  And some days will be better than others, but its the long term upward trend that you're after.

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Gypsy

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## katygrasslady

I'm having the same problems.  My first public venue was at a nursing home.  The pressure is low because not all the audience is awake.  The few that are alert enough to really listen will appreciate anything you play and will not notice mistakes as long as you keep playing.  I flubbed the key change, as usual, and stopped.  Yes, learning to just keep playing in tempo is my goal.

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Emmett Marshall, 

Gypsy

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## Mandoplumb

> Went to a jam circle last week.  Wasn't feeling self conscious.  Did a lot of raking the strings in rhythm.  On my turn I confidently called Whiskey Before Breakfast, which I can play in my sleep.  Totally went to ####.  I don't think I made it through one measure without screwing up, and wasn't able to finish.  
> 
> Of course they were all very nice about it.  But I'm really discouraged.  How do I forget how to do something I've done a million times before, when I wasn't even really worried about performing well?


Years ago I saw the Osborne Brothers when Sonny was still playing, they done Rocky Top and Bobby forgot the words,how many hundreds of time do you reckon he had sang that.   It happens just accept that and move on we are all human

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## Emmett Marshall

+1 on the nursing homes!  The most forgiving audience I know of.  You can make more mistakes than not, and they are still delighted that you are there.  Here's another tip:  Play for everyone who visits you at home, and if nobody visits you, then stop playing! :Laughing:

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Gypsy, 

Jackgaryk

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## farmerjones

> How do I forget how to do something I've done a million times before, when I wasn't even really worried about performing well?


It's a confidence issue, but the confidence you really need is way over the top. Yes, it's a head game, with yourself.  Tell yourself: "This is such a small, simple tune. This is such a small, easy tune, it's really beneath me to play it. But alas, I will play it as a small gift." There was nothing in those statements, like, "I hope I don't screw up." Mistakes are not even in the equation. Hit a clam and keep going. Never, never, never stop. If you hit a clam, so what? Chances are you're the only one that heard it. Nobody dies. Nobody gets hurt. Clams are nothing.  Ignore them and they will go away. And if they don't, so what? 
 Then after you're done playing you can go back to your normal, humble, self.

NFN- Michael Jordan was so good, so intimidating, and garnered so much respect, he had to make up situations to get his head in not just play mode, but fight mode. He worked at both physical and mental mastery.

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catmandu2, 

Gypsy

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## Bertram Henze

> not just play mode, but fight mode.


The better part of being brave is having made your peace with apocalypse. Don't try to think yourself into being somewhere else - thinking is your enemy, be here and now, ready to watch total failure, popcorn in one hand, mandolin in the other. Don't think how absurd it is that you are here, in front of people watching you, don't try to make your way back to normality - instead, embrace and extend the absurdity and learn to surf on it like it was a Pacific wave in Hawaii, while your thoughts fall silent.
Don't be afraid of the apparent inner change you undergo in this situation, and don't try to go back to your old self - this exulted state is your real self and should learn to act responsibly and with determination, not just dream about it. Then you know first-hand how heros function.

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catmandu2, 

Gypsy

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## farmerjones

Embarrassment might be death to you, but I've been married for thirty-some years. 
I wake up wrong, and stay mistaken most of the day.  :Smile: 

BTW you broke my google.

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Gypsy

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## catmandu2

> ... be here and now


Excellent advice.  And music is such an effective medium conducive to this - go with it!

- - - Updated - - -




> I usually drink a pint of beer before a performance.


this is difficult to do for day gigs though - I just don't feel like drinking this morning l_

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## Miss Lonelyhearts

"... the music plays the instrument, and the music is you."
Well put! I tend to think of this as "we play music with our brains--the instrument is just the mechanical part that lets the music ricochet around the room." But I might steal your version.  :Smile:

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Bertram Henze, 

catmandu2

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## yankees1

The only way to get over this is to play in front of others ! Perhaps sit in the back until you feel more comfortable . I was in the same situation but have finally conquered this -------------------well, most of the time !

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Gypsy

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## catmandu2

> "... the music plays the instrument, and the music is you."





> "...I will play it as a small gift."


I heard something the other night - perhaps it's a common adage: _the minute you expect something from music - you expect too much_

I was extremely neurotic WRT to performing for years - bound-up in perfectionisms (with my Bach repertoire), ego, inhibitions, etc.  This wasn't working.  It took several tactical changes before I would become a competent performer: changes in instrument, repertoire, approach...and through these, a journey/study with music that ultimately enabled me to reinvent my experience with music and performing.  For brevity - foregoing all the details of my personal transitions, I came to a 'simpler' approach WRT performing - which I experience, now, as essentially *giving*.  Sounds hokey and all - but something happened that cleared out a ton of baggage, and allows me to attend to music, audience, and myself.  Of course I'm not playing big rooms or high-pressure audiences..  I guess it's like: coming to a place where the music lives (as articulated above by MissLH-).  Ego stuff - music is too precious for that.  It's hard not to get all evangelical about it - but there are some very fundamental aspects to it all -

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farmerjones, 

Gypsy

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## Gypsy

Emmett Marshall... loving the video lol  :Smile:

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## Al Bergstein

In the early 90s I got back into playing a lot with other players. I found a very supportive jam session in my area, one that had a slow jam in the afternoon for beginners to the music, and after a potluck dinner break, had bands, ad-hoc and established, get up for two songs each, with a 'fast' jam afterwards. See if you can't find a jam like this in your area. Other musicians will likely know of it. 

Butch Baldisarri had a good point when I took some lessons from him, which was that when he started out, he focused on memorizing one tune per month, so he had a new song to play at each month's jam sessions. In a year, he had a dozen songs he could play well, and could call it when it was his turn. I think many of us do this, but it was good to hear it from someone of his level. (RIP Butch). 

So the point of being very comfortable with your repetoire should really help you get over your fear, which most of us have. 

And I agree with the statement that you should play with people, and not worry about playing for them. When I am at some place and someone asks me to 'play us a song', that's when having your repetoire solidly in your head will get you through. 

Relax and enjoy. You live in a part of the country that you should be able to learn some fabulous bluegrass, if that's your thing.

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## zeeku777

Not to sound uncivilized here.. but get drunk (or buzzed). Practice a tune til you know it down pat, then get some liquid encouragement and let it rip in front of a crowd. Not to encourage alcohol dependence or anything, but it definitely showed me how easy performing is, and now performing is a high of its own for me (of course, having a pint with me is fantastic too)


Just my two cents....

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## BrianWilliam

Don't get me wrong, I love scotch. 

But, my skill is an inverse relation to the amount of booze in my system.  That's just IME and all.

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## lenf12

> But, my skill is an inverse relation to the amount of booze in my system.


While I certainly do not disagree, you CAN prioritize how important the playing environment is to you, especially considering if there's money involved, which implies an obligation to the audience. It's better to maintain your sobriety when playing for an audience especially if you're getting paid. If you're just jamming with some friends and drinking a few beers (as we do on Saturday afternoons) the group dynamics will be your guide. 

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## BrianWilliam

True, I like beers too!

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## lenf12

Me too. I'm really liking New Belgium "Rampant" Imperial IPA 8.5% abv. Mighty fine brew!!!

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## epicentre

Practice, practice, and then practice.  Just watched Sierra Hull burn up the fretboard of
an octave mandolin playing Old Dangerfield.  I shall never again complain about big fingers, small frets,  high strings., etc.
  Practice, practice, practice..........And smile !!  Sooner or later.....................

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## Bertram Henze

I have my reservations about the beer thing... it helps you to detach from the situation and can lower anxiety but it also deprives you of the full impact of the experience, which I deem an essential part of life. Did you do the gig, or did you just survive it? If you were not all there, can you be proud?

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Jess L.

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## BJ O'Day

> But, my skill is an inverse relation to the amount of booze in my system.


Yes,
1 beer and I relax, 2 beers and I fumble.
BJ

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## Joel Glassman

I found playing Irish music jams was helpful [even though its not really what I do now].
There are jam sessions which are great for building confidence. You listen hard the
first time through and try to map the tune in your head. Then try to play the basic 
melody. Its a great confidence builder. A mandolin would always be welcome in an 
amateur performing group. Everyone will be playing the same melody...

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