# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  Not like they used to
i was listening to some older bluegrass recordings from the 50s and early 60s and i notice, like i often do, people dont play like that anymore.
like curly lambert, buzz busby to name a few.

what happened? who stole all the blues and old time feel from the music? hehe

any players today who are in nationaly known acts who still play like this?

i know of mike compton, but the rest are slick pickers...........

----------


## flatthead

You may want to give a listen to Travers Chandler and Avery County. Try  http://averycountybluegrass.com/

He has a little bobble head of Buzz Busby on the dashboard of his 1967 Chevrolet Biscayne...... :Smile:

----------

geeze i sound so dooms day!
i really enjoy modern bluegrass, i really really enjoy old bluegrass.

yeah i like that band avery county. they know whats up!

im on the move to buy some new cds

----------


## sgarrity

I understand what you mean though. I want to hear the mandolin played like a mandolin. So many of the "slick pickers" sound like they're playin' a fiddle with a pick.

Shaun

----------


## testore

I know what you mean. There is a band that is now broken up,Open Road.Caleb is their mando player and he has some very nice Monroe influenced but not copyist style licks. I'm not sure where he is now but I think he's a very good throwback to an earlier era player.

----------


## picksnbits

Compton for sure, but how about Ronnie McCoury?  He seems to let the mando speak, but still gets in some of the gee-whiz stuff, too.

----------


## Peter Hackman

> I understand what you mean though. #I want to hear the mandolin played like a mandolin. #So many of the "slick pickers" sound like they're playin' a fiddle with a pick.
> 
> Shaun


I want to hear it played like a saxophone.

----------


## AlanN

Go see Dave Davis, he picks it the new/old time way.

----------


## picksnbits

I've been thinking about competition pickers and how they tend to develop a different style than one would develop just jamming and playing for the music's sake. Seems like many of the current pros have come through the proving grounds of the competitions.  Bluegrass festivals and competitions have helped keep the music alive, but I think they've fertilized the "slick-picker" crop a bit more heavily than the "old time" crop.

----------


## sgarrity

> I want to hear it played like a saxophone.


Good luck with that!

Shaun

----------


## Jonathan Peck

Yeah, I can definitely hear more classical, jazz, newgrass influenced grassers than let's hop on the mule and head down the road and get them to move their feet type pickin'

I've heard more than one story about how those back woods dances could be pretty rough and ready with the locals just wanting to do some serious drinking and let loose for awhile. Seems more than the music has changed. I don't imagine many of the early pickers you mentioned graduated from Berkley

----------


## tiltman

check out David Peterson and 1946 - I think you'll like it.
Mike Compton plays mando on the cd.
Kirk

----------


## MartinD_GibsonA

> Quote #
> I want to hear it played like a saxophone. 
> 
> Good luck with that!


That's not as far-fetched as you might think. #Tony Rice has spoken often about how much he's been influenced by jazz horn players, even more so than jazz guitar players. #You can read a couple of such comments here and here.

Don Smith

----------


## EggerRidgeBoy

> i was listening to some older bluegrass recordings from the 50s and early 60s and i notice, like i often do, people dont play like that anymore.
> like curly lambert, buzz busby to name a few.
> 
> what happened? who stole all the blues and old time feel from the music? hehe
> 
> any players today who are in nationaly known acts who still play like this?
> 
> i know of mike compton, but the rest are slick pickers...........



Check out Dan Paisley and the Southern Grass: http://www.southerngrass.net/

----------

cool, thanks for the leads guys!
a band called 1946? got my attention!  

the last thing i want to hear when i hear bluegrass music is a mandolin trying to be a sax. save that for the swing or jazz! #tony rice is a great guitar player, one of my favoirite for sure, but lots of the stuff he does is definatly off the beaten path, wich is good, but it takes away from what i really like about bluegrass, wich is why i started the thread. #i enjoy tonys music ALOT though. #its cool to make the "grass grow" but i like my grass BLUE!

i think there is heavy competition in the picking arena, gotta be the fastest slickest etc. #instead of the bluest or most high and lonesome picker you can be. #i definatly see the link with the competitions as well. #

when i hit the festivals this summer im bringin the extra blue high lonesome old timey feel!

here is an anecdote, i played a bluegrass festival this past summer with a band i was in, and we played "fire on the mountain"
i play the break as close to monroe as i can, and i throw in my own tonic flavor on top. # and two other bands played that song before us!
however after my break, an older guy in the crowd stood up and clapped and hollered really loud!! i think it was because im the only guy who played it in the traditional fashion. #
 
edit note: the solo was, it just was, i didnt mess up, and it wasnt spectacular, just was the solo to that song. i thought he was messing with me, but later my girlfriend told me that he seemed pretty serious.

how about some jazz players get influenced by bluegrass. #that would be cool

----------


## bradeinhorn

> Originally Posted by  (sgarrity @ April 24 2007, 08:26)
> 
> I understand what you mean though. #I want to hear the mandolin played like a mandolin. #So many of the "slick pickers" sound like they're playin' a fiddle with a pick.
> 
> Shaun
> 
> 
> I want to hear it played like a saxophone.


watching him perform it live with the new band, thile's break in ophelia mimics the horn section of the original very well. if anyone can do it, i'd check him out.

----------

playin a fiddle with a pick, maybe thats why doc watson calls it fiddle pickin!

i have seen live that ophelia you speak of. butt kickin!

----------


## EggerRidgeBoy

Are you familiar with Chris Henry? He's the mandolin playing son of Murphy and Red Henry, of "Murphy Method" instructional video fame, who with his banjo picking sister Casey recently formed The Two Stringers, a Nashville based bluegrass band. Last year he released a mandolin CD entitled "Monroe Approved", which as you might guess from the title is meant to be his homage to Bill's style. I've seen the band a couple of times and really enjoy them, but I haven't heard anything from that particular CD - whether his mandolin playing has enough old-school blues and soul you can perhaps decide for yourself by listening to some sound clips here: http://www.twostringers.com/merchandise.php

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Yeah, I can definitely hear more classical, jazz, newgrass influenced grassers than let's hop on the mule and head down the road and get them to move their feet type pickin'
> 
> I've heard more than one story about how those back woods dances could be pretty rough and ready with the locals just wanting to do some serious drinking and let loose for awhile. Seems more than the music has changed. I don't imagine many of the early pickers you mentioned graduated from Berkley #


and not even from Berklee!

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> Quote #
> I want to hear it played like a saxophone. 
> 
> Good luck with that!
> 
> 
> That's not as far-fetched as you might think. #Tony Rice has spoken often about how much he's been influenced by jazz horn players, even more so than jazz guitar players. #You can read a couple of such comments here and here.
> ...


I was partly facetious, because I don't really understand the remark about
mandolin players playing like fiddlers. Either they move me or they don't.

But partly I was referring to the fact the saxophonists are the true masters
of phrasing. They breathe, which means that rests are an important part of their playing. The best players also have a knack for placing accents
just anywhere in a stream of eighth notes, and playing fast flurries that seem to just drip form their horns, without sounding the least hurried.
In the range of the mandolin one example that comes to mind is
Paul McCandless on soprano sax. Any serious musician,
regardless of instrument or "genre",
 could get inspiration from these cats.

----------


## sgarrity

Hhmmm, maybe "playin' a fiddle with a pick" wasn't the best way to put it. What I was trying to get across is that a lot of modern players play in what I would describe as a more linear fashion. Lots of single notes and scales. And usually mostly 1/8 notes. Where the older style of playing was more chord form based. More double stops, syncopation and feeling. 

There is nothing wrong with any of it. I enjoy listening to all things mandolin. I just prefer the older style of picking.

Shaun

----------

sitar players are the true masters of phrasing.

----------


## mrbook

Players today have different influences than the older players. They grew up listening to rock and pop music - not even the good early stuff, but the 80s and 90s music, which doesn't seem to have roots (at last to my crotchety old-man ears). Even those who like bluegrass picked it up from 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation players. How many count Old and In the Way as an influence?

Starting out in the early 60s, I found Monroe, Flatt & Scruggs, and the Osborne Brothers, and it didn't take long to find Jimmy Martin and the Stanley Brothers and others, although it wasn't always easy to find their records. Most of the people I know who count those bands as their inspiration are usually are usually a decade or two older than me, and people are telling me I'm old. It's hard to get a band full of people who have listened to much of that music. 

Many people have heard a lot of the old songs through groups like the Bluegrass Album Band, who, as good as they are, are a lot smoother than the early guys. I like it all, but with the early guys you always had the feeling that you never knew what was coming next, which made the music more exciting to me.

----------


## Big Joe

Hey Tiltman...I think the first of 1946's CD's had Charlie Derrington on mandolin and harmony vocals. His style was distinctive and not at all like Compton's. He and Steve Huber were in the first incarnation of that band.

----------

alot of good suggestions thanks.  
mrbook, i totaly agree with you. but i would add to that i got introduced into bluegrass in the late ninties, and when i really got into it, most of what i listened to and still is the older stuff. some people are like that, however even if you listen to that old stuff, everything else you listen to or were a part of comes into play. that creates personal style, but can also make learning a style difficult. not so much old and in the way, but i am way into the dead and jerry and i dig the dawg too.

i wish i could play in that style, that way, with that gusto drive and feel. 
i cop licks from bill monroe, buzz busby, frank wakefield, (recently) curly lambert, but have a tendency to go the ways of the new school.
its hard. harder than one might think to play in that style.

i think people picked different too with more authority or something. teachin them strings a lesson!
like that old school super fast punchy tremlo! (see: buzz)
i sometimes think that was from the fact most people played into the one mic or centralized micing situation and you had to PICK IT to get the tone out there. no tone gaurds or mini clip on mics etc.

i try and get down with the roots of bluegrass too. i like checking out old time fiddle tunes and old time banjo. i posted this before but this web site is great for getting in touch with those roots.
http://www.aca-dla.org/index.php
http://www.aca-dla.org/cdm4....lachian

i like that timeless sound, where you are just hearing strings and wood and voice, you could close your eyes and you could be back in the fifties in a used car lot jam, or right here today. like some of those magic festival moments...... sigh.....

it is nice to know other people know what im talkin about, and nice to know of the artists out there pickin it.

----------


## AlanN

> Many people have heard a lot of the old songs through groups like the Bluegrass Album Band, who, as good as they are, are a lot smoother than the early guys. I like it all, but with the early guys you always had the feeling that you never knew what was coming next, which made the music more exciting to me.


Good points here. The 'not knowing what comes next' is missing from a lot of today's bands. I was at a jam recently and the tunes that were picked were too 'canned'. Not so much the tunes, but the way the vocals happened and the breaks taken - too regular and following a formula..."Ok, here's my mandolin break and I'm going to tag the ending for 2 measures." And every break by every instrument was done the same way. It was boring and annoying at the same time. But the guitar man and banjo were the forces and that's the structure they drove.

I have an old Saturday morning radio show of Buzz Busby, Al Jones, Don Stover, Ed Ferris - rough at times, but never canned or 'regular'.

----------


## Don Stiernberg

How about David Long? There's a young player that has it goin' on!

 Jazz players influenced by bluegrass? That would be saxophonist Bill Evans, who recently did a gig in NYC including Sam Bush on the mandolin...

 Bassist Edgar Meyer, a classical maestro, also embraces bluegrass in his recordings and compositions, even having gone so far as to learn and play mandolin and dobro..

 I like to try to play jazz and bluegrass, they're not...what's the term?..."mutually exclusive"? I get a thrill whenever anyone mentions Buzz Buzzby, and I think that ferocious tremelo can be felt in the playing of others like Mr. Dawg, John Duffey, Earl Taylor, The Bray Bros...

 We had a great one here in Chicago for a long time too, Red Ratliff. Bona Fide, I assure you.

 Vassar Clements used to pick his fiddle! That would seem to
 legitimize fiddle-pickin'. He may have even done it on cello too.I think I saw a foto of that on the Dawgology thread here at the Cafe..

 ...random thoughts...now back to regularly scheduled programming....

----------


## jmcgann

> I like to try to play jazz and bluegrass, they're not...what's the term?..."mutually exclusive"?


Me too; they aren't; and some people just like what they like to the point of being political about it. Which I think is sad, because those folks are missing out on a world of great music...

There's great jazz and bad jazz; great bluegrass and totally lame bluegrass. Great musicians often make great music, and most of the time they could care less about "purity". That Jerry Douglas fellow is a big Hendrix fan, and it doesn't seem to have polluted his 'grass.

It's often the less developed self-appointed keepers of the flame that like to tell people what they should and shouldn't do in a style of music, and what is and isn't the "real traditional bluegrass" (or 'real jazz' or 'real Irish' or 'real rockabilly' or 'real blues' or #'real Hindustani" or whatever).

I wonder how many of the "Gee, no real bluegrass pickers graduate from Berkley" type "thinkers" have really LISTENED to what's going on in the Monroe/Flatt and Scruggs original bluegrass band- if they hear someone ELSE play like Chubby Wise (heavy Grapelli influence) or Cedric Rainwater (WALKING BASS!!!! THAT'S JAZZZZZZZZ!!!  ) they'd be the first to head for the door thinking "that's not traditional!" Maybe because rather than going to the actual roots of the music, they are more geared toward listening to much later generation neo-traditional bands that play in a style that is very conservative and has less to do with the original *spirit* of Monroe-Scruggs and more with the *mannerisms*.

Plus, they probably can't do that stuff anyway, so it must be bad 

"Fiddle style", "saxophone style"...whatever....those labels don't necessarily
mean that the mandolin playing lacks sweat, garlic, or gonads...

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Hhmmm, maybe "playin' a fiddle with a pick" wasn't the best way to put it. #What I was trying to get across is that a lot of modern players play in what I would describe as a more linear fashion. #Lots of single notes and scales. #And usually mostly 1/8 notes. #Where the older style of playing was more chord form based. #More double stops, syncopation and feeling. #
> 
> There is nothing wrong with any of it. #I enjoy listening to all things mandolin. #I just prefer the older style of picking.
> 
> Shaun


So double stops distinguish the mandolin from the violin? Don't tell
Svend Asmussen that.

Seriously, what I dislike in many contemporary grass-newgrass players is
their playing doesn't breathe. No rests, no rhythmic interest.

----------


## MartinD_GibsonA

> Chubby Wise (heavy Grapelli influence) or Cedric Rainwater (WALKING BASS!!!! THAT'S JAZZZZZZZZ!!!


I just completed a six-hour interest class on the history of Bluegrass given by a U of NC professor, Dr Robert Cantwell. #(Note -- He's also written several books on such subjects.) #He talked about both Chubby Wise and Cedric Rainwater, and even about how Earl Scruggs began life as more of a jazz banjo player from listening to the old minstrel show music before he finally figured out to use his thumb to tie lines of triplets together. #He even delved into the influence of the clarinet on Bill Monroe's music. #It was really fascinating stuff.

Don Smith

----------


## Jonathan Peck

I think the early players had a broad musical perspective and drew from many, many, musical sources and instruments. They also played with alot of raw emotion - from the gut, not from the head so to speak. I think alot of modern players, like the ones that graduate from Berklee even, tend to play more with their heads than their hearts. They might have larger musical vocabularies, but the raw emotional power of the gut player when missing can sound slick.

----------


## AlanN

> but the raw emotional power of the gut player when missing can sound slick.


Unless of course the gut player has a Tone Gard  

Someone above mentioned the BG Album Band. I loved those records, and at the time, I thought "Man, the classic tunes, but done up with modern sounds, Thank God". Age has given me the wisdom and clarity to see that there is indeed greatness in the old ways that maybe surpasses the slickness and cleanliness of the new breed. But, as Doyle said, they limited the guitar breaks on those recordings to pay proper homage to the originals. 

The Kentucky Colonels, to my ears, married the rawness and emotion of the old with the slick of the new.

----------


## JeffD

They just don't write any old songs anymore.

----------


## travers chandler

> You may want to give a listen to Travers Chandler and Avery County. #Try # http://averycountybluegrass.com/
> 
> He has a little bobble head of Buzz Busby on the dashboard of his 1967 Chevrolet Biscayne......


Thanks I think  

When i was learning to play I had nothing but records to learn from. My heroes were my teachers. Buzz Busby,Frank Wakefield especially. Monroe,Vernon Derrick were other influences.

Some other players who i think you should check out lemonhill:

David Davis
Skip Gorman
Compton
Lyle Meador
Randy "Bobo" Lindley



And if you are hankering for CD's Avery County's debut is available  #

----------

i like my bluegrass all different kinds of ways. #i prefer it to be in the older style. i dont politicize it at all. 
with jazz, there is much jazz that i think isnt jazz at all, but i do think it is at the same time. #confusing i know!
some people really dig bop, some dig swing, just like some dig old BG and some dig new. #
i try to play both jazz and grass. #but i usualy dont like to blend the two, i like to try and play jazz like it is jazz, and bg like it is bg.
thats just me. 
ive read monroes biography cover to cover more than once, and i dont remember anything ever about clarinets! #maybe i missed it?
bill i thought gave credit to a blues guitar player for where most of his inspiration came from. the #name escapes me now.
also the old time fiddle and songs that he grew up with. 

its funny, i play music with berkelee grads. i know a couple of guys who went through there. none of them can play a lick of bluegrass, but they are not bluegrass guys anyway. #they definatly do appreciate the music though. 

i see where you are coming from jmcgann, but i dont think anyone here went the direction you are talking about.
this is about personal preferences. i dont recall anyone saying that such and such isnt "real" or whatever.
however someone did say something about berkelee, and id like to think that there proabably is a good mandolin picker who graduated from there, but they probably didnt go to school for the mando!
anyway, what is this all about jmcgann?

"It's often the less developed self-appointed keepers of the flame that like to tell people what they should and shouldn't do in a style of music, and what is and isn't the "real traditional bluegrass" (or 'real jazz' or 'real Irish' or 'real rockabilly' or 'real blues' or #'real Hindustani" or whatever)."

nobody even went there. # whats your deal? that sounds like you got a bone to pick.

as a matter of fact i would strongly dissagree with you!!!!!

dear lord how many times i have heard PHENOMENAL players go off about who isnt playing it true and who is, in bluegrass, jazz, rock, and in middle eastern music (my musical heritage) #

so whoever you were trying to gently demean by saying they are "less developed and self-appointed" #did not post and is not here to defend themself. #and who are these people anyway?

this is a post about personal preference in bluegrass music.
you are in the bluegrass section of the forum!
you probably just offended a handful of people by making those super broad statements.

i hope you dont think because someone likes one thing more than something else that means they are "sad" and missing out on a world of music. #i obviously did not list my other interests in music, wich probably are more diverse than your tastes because im younger and listen to music you proably wouldnt listen to, but thats a assumption so whatever and that really has nothing to do with the subject.

they dont teach soul at school. #you either got it or you dont. #so berkelee or no berkelee it dont matter!

furthermore, 
quote jmcgann
"they are more geared toward listening to much later generation neo-traditional bands that play in a style that is very conservative"

who are you talking about? who is this they? if you are wondering about me, no i dont adhere to that. i listen to mostly old stuff, early sixties the latest. i do listen to newer music, but i have always listened to the old stuff.

and to quote tony rice
"you can always tell who listens to the old stuff"

----------


## jmcgann

I'm outta here. Y'all know more about soul than me...

One last thought- those who think they are all heart and no head are probably right #

----------

yeah i guess you are right about that.

next time you drop bombs like that at least use the lysol.
common courtesey to clean up the stink. #

its amazing i dont know where this stuff comes from.......

the only "soul" comment i made was how it was something you have or you dont............. 

WHATS WITH THE ANIMOSITY!

----------

doyle lawson can kick it old school any day. he can also new school.
don stiernberg mentioned john duffey, someone well known for going off the beaten path, but that guy can really play it true as well!

i think the recording process has ALOT to do with the changing of the sound. 
back in the day when you sang into the can, it was different than tracking stuff out and having your own mic (or two!) for just the mando.
a good modern example of singing in to the can....
the johnson mountain boys, working close. i beleive that was a one mic recording, it says somewhere on the cd jacket, wich is somewhere unknown to me.
i really enjoy david mclaughlins mandolin stylings as well.

----------


## Don Stiernberg

Here now,music lovers! I hope none of my earlier comments really prompted any unecessary emotion...let's leave that in 
 the music. McGann, you come back! If the coin lands on heads, you will receive, tails, you kick off...

 Great to see another of my heroes, Vernon Derrick, listed. That is the stuff! The round hole mandolin, the Jimmy Martin blues licks, the cleanliness, the drive--love it!You can hear that style carried forth by the likes of Doyle and Jimmy Gaudreau..

 When Mike Compton and David Long came to my town they shared the stage with David Davis. Great night of mandolin! I think of all of those guys as great "Monroeologists", yet they have individual, identifiable personal sounds, don't they? That's another thing I love about music and mandolin. As Charlie Parker supposedly said.."If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn"

 Speaking of Bill Monroe, he reflected his own times somewhat too--the triple fiddles supposedly a tip of the cap to Bob Wills, and the swingin' accordion was even in there a bit...

  Some days Sam Bush's break on Butch Robbins record of Sally Goodin' is all I need, the next day Red Rector singing "Before I Met You" will take me apart...

  I think it's all good and we're all on the same team.

 Once again, my earlier comments were not meant so much to be provocative as to draw parallels. Best wishes to all and thanks for singing the praises of all the aforementioned great artists.

----------


## sgarrity

Wow.....why doesn't everybody have a beer and chill out! There is room for all styles of players on this little instrument we all love. This was a discussion of preferences. Nobody was saying anything about, "That ain't bluegrass." 

Shaun

----------

john and i have an understanding now.....
he was in a sense standing up for modern players who might be deemed souless!

however, its just a different shade of soul, wich is something we can all agree on id say.

i really like the bird quote from don.

here is one from sam bush "bill monroe is one of the ultimate "feel" players. if he played it, it's because he felt it."

or conversely "fake it till you make it"

----------


## jmcgann

I lied. I am back to add a few points:

To those who feel:




> I think alot of modern players, like the ones that graduate from Berklee even, tend to play more with their heads than their hearts. They might have larger musical vocabularies, but the raw emotional power of the gut player when missing can sound slick.


So who are the players you are thinking of who graduated from Berklee? Without looking below, can you name two (since you said 'players')? Or is this just reverse snobbery?

Oh yeah, I graduated from Berklee, so if you want to call me soulless, go for it, but I'd much prefer you to actually listen to me play first...or better yet, come to one of my gigs and say it to my face 






> id like to think that there proabably is a good mandolin picker who graduated from there, but they probably didnt go to school for the mando!


Check out Joy Kills Sorrow, with Joe Walsh, the first mandolin principal to graduate Berklee. I think he's a very soulful player. If 'slick' means good tone and technique, sure- but I think most of you use 'slick' in the sense of 'slick salesman'.

Good players put thought into their music- it may not be book-learnin' music theory type thought, but no one gets to be a great player without using their noggins.

No one mentioned Nate Bray, one of my favorite of the old school mando players. That's some great bluegrass right there (Rounder reissued some stuff in the '70's with John Hartford writing the liner notes). 

In my world, Adam Steffy is as soulful a player as Monroe or Nate Bray or Doyle or anybody- and if you want slick as in good tone and technique, there you go.

Lastly- you Monroe fans must be aware of the botched job Gibson did on Mr. Monroe's mando that led him to take a penkinfe to the headstock. He played for many years from the mid 50's on on an instrument with tremendously high action. Check out the Monroe Bros. era stuff, then the Flatt and Scruggs era, then the early and later 50's recordings. Other than the recording quality getting better, notice anything about the mandolin playing getting rougher, with less left hand clarity? Could that rough-and-ready sound from 1959 be because the mando is in a rugged state of setup compared to 1945? I wonder how he'd have sounded in that era if the strings weren't a half inch off the fingerboard...




> they dont teach soul at school.


Nope, they don't 'teach' it anywhere...and one man's 'soulful' can be another man's 'slick', so it's all just opinion as to who has what!

----------


## mythicfish

To those of you who a young enough to wait it out ... give it 20-30 years and these will be the good old days.
"And for beans and for bacon I will open up my door ..." (For those of us who aint!)

Curt

----------


## picksnbits

So why is it that not many of today's pros pick like Doc and Bill? Nothing wrong with what's going on, but it does seem that there's more scale-based pickers than chord based pickers, and more jazz-influenced than blues.  Maybe if we talk guitar it won't get so emotional, so let's talk Doc Watson and Tony Rice.  Both of them are great pickers and I'd be thrilled to be able to pick like either of them. Seems like more young pros are in the Tony camp than the Doc camp. Why is that?

----------


## travers chandler

> I lied. I am back to add a few points:
> 
> To those who feel:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am sorry Jim but none of the players that i consider great that i know personally have never played with their heads....they play what comes to them.....You don't have time to think you just do.....natural as can be.....


You are mighty confrontational......Did you learn that at Berklee too???

Not saying one should not play with their head...just sayin that's all....

----------


## travers chandler

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> I like to try to play jazz and bluegrass, they're not...what's the term?..."mutually exclusive"?
> 
> 
> Me too; they aren't; and some people just like what they like to the point of being political about it. Which I think is sad, because those folks are missing out on a world of great music...
> 
> There's great jazz and bad jazz; great bluegrass and totally lame bluegrass. Great musicians often make great music, and most of the time they could care less about "purity". That Jerry Douglas fellow is a big Hendrix fan, and it doesn't seem to have polluted his 'grass.
> 
> ...




Awful lot of assumption there pal....

----------


## Don Stiernberg

John,

  Thanks for coming back.

 I did mention The Bray Brothers, just couldn't remember Nate and Harley without reaching for the album cover. And I do mean album. Important musicians here in Illinois, apparently having a big effect on a fellow named Hartford back in the day..

  the trained musician may have to meet the challenge of connecting emotionally to his audience...wait, that's the same challenge the untrained player has. Oh well, carry on, we've almost got this figured out

 My friend Pat Cloud is a genius of bebop on the five string. Also drives the hard grass as well as anybody. Interestingly, he keeps the languages seperate--no bluegrass licks on the jazz tunes, no jazz on the grass. Just another way to cope with these dillemae I guess. What a great player.

 I hope it's OK I'm gonna stay tuned here...

----------


## Timbofood

Sounds to me like there is a "never change" thought here. I have been playing for 30 years with the (mostly)same guys; banjo ,guitar and me, only the bass player has changed. With every change the sound changes, maybe this is the very nature of the dynamics of this music. Heaven forbid that it becomes so static that a picker is ostracized because he didn't play the lick from the record! I don't want to think that would ever happen. We are all influenced from outside sources and that is something that will just happen unless you live in a vacuum. The world keeps on turning.

----------


## tiltman

Wow,
I was away from this thread for a couple of days and it looks like all heck broke loose!

When I referred to David Peterson and 1946 (with Mike Compton on mando) I was referring to the cd "In the mountaintops to Roam".
Big Joe's comment makes it sound like there are other(s)
out there?
I'll have to do some looking.

If you're not careful, you might learn something.
Kirk

----------


## AlanN

Kick back wif dis. No flash 'n gash, but it's good.



Sauceman Brothers in the 60's

----------


## mythicfish

"I am sorry Jim but none of the players that i consider great that i know personally have never played with their heads....they play what comes to them.....You don't have time to think you just do.....natural as can be....."

Just what I've been looking for ... Music unencumbered by the thought process!
"That aint workin', that's the way ya do it ... Yuh play the git-tar on the MTV"

Curt

----------


## mandocrucian

There are numerous aspects concerning BG and the people that are playing it exclusively (or primarily) that haven't been considered.

1) How many of today's bluegrassers actually grew up on a farm, or in some small isolated town or know first hand conditions like the classic BG players experienced? #(Also, how many of today's blues players grew up on a farm/plantation or have picked cotton or vegetables?) #Tales/songs of hard living have now become sepia-toned Hallmark greeting card nostalgia. 

2) The marketing of bluegrass over the past 15 years is to recast it as G-rated family-values entertainment. Clean up _Unforgiven_ and turn it into _The Apple Dumpling Gang_. Performers are expected to conform or at least pay lip service in public to the beliefs/politics of the BG audience(s). If someone wrote a modern version of _"Six Months Ain't Long"_, which was serious about the sentiment ("I can handle jail time, no big deal"), it would be decried #as anti-social, anti-family, etc. etc.

3) Among the earlier players - there were plenty of lifestyle excesses - alcoholism, drugs (usually amphetamines), promiscuity and adultery, borderline (or not so borderline) lunacy. There was some great playing that came from these people, but that was just an external manifestation of the *individual personality/psyche*. Do you really think you can get Scott Stoneman/Buzz Busby out of the "mainstream/normal" mind? If some of those guys had come along a few years later (and not started out as #BGers, I wonder how many of them would have opted for rockabilly instead.)

With mass media and the exposure to such a variety of styles, as opposed to 50 years ago, a would-be musician can find the area that reflects their own psyche. The hellraisers can opt for Southern rock, rockabilly, ot alt country, or something else, where they can freely indulge in _"weed, whites & wine"_ without having to act/pretend like they go to church every Sunday or never express any political views contrary to the majority of the people they are working with or playing for. #

Now, as far as the trained vs. untrained musician debate.... Instead of music, perhaps you could substitute any of these: philosophy, religion, poitics. You can go to school and learn about the various viewpoints/beliefs of any of those areas and get enough background in them so you could enter a debate taking any side which you were assigned by your professor. OK, musically, you can learn the vocabulary and syntax of various genres, and can demonstrate that you do know that material by playing according to the guidelines and conventions of the genre. But this is intellectually driven and may not have anything to do with your personal tastes and preferences. The trained player can be a chameleon and change the external costume to suit the situation and/or the employment requirements. The untrained (and I use these terms rather vaguely) player is, as Popeye says _"I am what I am and that's all that I am._ It could be recast as a _job vs. avocation_ or _external vs. internal_. #(When the internal preferences happen to coincide with the external demands, the trained player is truly unleashed.)

The conditions that produced the bluegrass of the 40's-50's are pretty much gone forever. That sound is a product of its time period. But there will always be some retro holdovers and revivalists and true believers.

Niles H

----------


## Jonathan Peck

> Nope, they don't 'teach' it anywhere...and one man's 'soulful' can be another man's 'slick', so it's all just opinion as to who has what!


Hey John, no need to nuke the village. I've obviously hit a nerve for mentioning Berklee, so for that I am sorry. BTW - I had no idea that you studied there and my comment wasn't directed towards you personally. I was just using Berklee as an example. It's very hard to name an example and not offend someone. 

As far as your comment about 'say it to my face', no problem there. I would have no issue with repeating anything that I have written in a face to face conversation over a cup of coffee. These are my'opinions' and I'm open to hearing the opinions of others and discussing them (even yours  )

With that (and musical education) aside, who would you rather listen to:

Jimi Hendrix - or - Yngwie Malmsteen
Clarence White - or - Tony Rice
Robert Johnson - or - Keb Mo'
Bach - or - Mahler
Mstislav Rostropovich - or - Yo Yo Ma
Bill Monroe - or - Adam Steffey
Maria Callas - or - 

All good, but I think you can see the difference that I'm pointing to.

----------

robert johnson is rollin in his grave over the sarcasm in your post curt!  

there is something wrong with a blues/soul mandolin player?

what is the point in busting on monroes mandolin? i think it sounded just fine. i know the deal with how it was. but i can listen to an old man play music and hear the legacy of every note he's ever played. i can hear the style, the feel, the soul.
i can listen to a young man play his mandolin on recordings way before my time and hear the same things with a different energy behind the mandolin.
what is the point in bringing up monroes mandolin? so i can comment on how it doesnt matter what insturment or what quality of insturment you play, its the music you play. 
im sure none of my mandolins are up to snuff for you either, but i play them and with some soul.
if i could get better mandolins i would, but it wouldnt change whats important about the music i play.
i wish john hartford was here with us today to comment on this thread! 
that guy played his fiddle with nothin but soul.

on another note, who would you consider to be the james brown of bluegrass?
i think im leaning toward jimmy martin.

----------

you go to your church ill go to mine.

----------


## jmcgann

> Hey John, no need to nuke the village. I've obviously hit a nerve for mentioning Berklee, so for that I am sorry. BTW - I had no idea that you studied there and my comment wasn't directed towards you personally. I was just using Berklee as an example. It's very hard to name an example and not offend someone.


Well, since you used Berklee as an example, I'm asking you to _name two graduate players who you consider soulless_, to back up your statement from conjecture to fact. Hey, any graduate of any music school will do. We're listening. And if you can't back up your statement with fact, whaddya got? An OPINION that is not based on anything but prejudice?




> With that (and musical education) aside, who would you rather listen to:
> 
> Jimi Hendrix - or - Yngwie Malmsteen
> Clarence White - or - Tony Rice
> Robert Johnson - or - Keb Mo'
> Bach - or - Mahler
> Mstislav Rostropovich - or - Yo Yo Ma
> Bill Monroe - or - Adam Steffey
> Maria Callas - or -


Since when is it an either/or proposition? Who would you rather hang with, best friend #1 or #1a? Why not have them BOTH bring some beer? 

I would rather listen to all of them and get what each has to offer, rather than looking for what ISN'T there and miss what IS there (read: political agenda)- I don't listen for Hendrix in Ynqwee- I really love the unique aspects of both Clarence AND Tony- thank God we have great recordings of Bill to get Bill!

Who is the Jimmy Martin of R and B is my question  

PS_ I wasn't 'busting on Monroe's mandolin"- it's just an observation of a true situation. Maybe he'd have sounded more like Adam Steffy with an easy playing mandolin (that's tongue in cheek, son)...

My issue is with the "it's not enough to succeed, others must fail" attitude that claims education=soulless. It's utter nonsense. Ignorance does not equal soul, nor does education equal soul. Knowing stuff doesn't make you a better player- but it *can*. Being a better player might make you more soulful.

There's old school AND new school stuff that is amazing, and vice versa. Everyone is entitled to their likes and dislikes, but don't expect to make sweeping statements that infer that schooled players have no soul without stirring up a fight #

----------


## jmcgann

> I am sorry Jim but none of the players that i consider great that i know personally have never played with their heads....they play what comes to them.....You don't have time to think you just do.....natural as can be.....
> 
> 
> You are mighty confrontational......Did you learn that at Berklee too???


Travis, my name is not Jim.

I'm sure your friends are being honest when they say they just play what comes to them. Maybe they are great players. This proves that knowing stuff is somehow slick? "Natural as can be"...why do you think that players who know stuff don't just play naturally as well? Are we up there with calculators and pocket protectors analyzing everything?

I learned how to be confrontational at Riker's Island Charm School (class of '76). When I see people taking potshots at what I do, I don't mind jumping in and standing up for myself.

----------


## Jonathan Peck

You seem to be reading alot of things into what people have said that they never said. In that regard, you might as well be talking to yourself. Funny how you are calling everyone else ignorant.....among other things, just because they don't agree with you. The only one who is rushing to judgement is you. Take a breath and stop fighting so hard to win. You are killing what was otherwise a very intersting discussion just to defend a position that probably most everybody already agrees with

----------


## jmcgann

Yeah, Captain, I thought so. Let me know where I misquoted you. Or where I misread stuff (oh, I actually used quotes from the thread!) Be sure to quote me where I called people ignorant...-You called out this:




> I think alot of modern players, like the ones that graduate from Berklee even, tend to play more with their heads than their hearts. They might have larger musical vocabularies, but the raw emotional power of the gut player when missing can sound slick.


So who are the Berklee graduates you cite? If you make statements like that, surely you can back them up!

What rush to judgement? I think you got it backwards, friend...

----------


## Jonathan Peck

Hey John, 

I didn't want to go there, but since you've cornered me and you like quotes AND you want to fight, what do you think of these quotes? 

"It seems like it sucks every last bit of spontinaity and creativity out of you and you're doomed to play varations of Charlie Parker for the rest of your life with a gig bag strapped to your back like some kind of ponytailed turtle in an endless quest for studio gigs."

"You know, I WENT to Berklee, and that's pretty much it."

"around three years into my berklee education I realized that i was surrounded not only dozens of insanely talented musicians but also hundreds of boring soulless hacks. A great school if you bother to take advantage of it, a big waste of time and money if you'd rather go get baked. WORD"

"After I found myself with chops I totally abandon the technical aspects of playing and now I enjoy the fact that no one would be able to recognize that I went to Berklee or that I even practiced the amount that I did during that phase of my life."

"I Can also assure you Berklee is a JAZZ school, guys. Having played w/ at least 50 players who graduated there, my experience w/ them was that they were all excellent
technical guitarists who had near total mastery of their
instrument but for the most part played souless, mechanical, self-masturbatory licks with no feeling. Just my experience."


Having not attended Berklee myself, I'll have to trely on the words of students who have. Can we still be friends?

----------


## Mandomax

I don't have a dog in this fight, so this question is more out of morbid curiousity. Cap'n, where did you find these quotes? And, you still haven't named any examples of souless Berklee grads. The quotes you provided were pretty obvious, too- you could say that about any large institution. Just remove "Berklee" from the sentence and plug in a different university name. I mean, c'mon on, if you go to college to go get high all the time, you're gonna miss out on a lot of stuff, regardless of whether it's NEC, North Texas, GIT, or Caltech. And I think the original poster's premise is flawed to begin with. You have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight with old music, so the cream has risen to the top. How hard have you searched through new stuff to find the nuggets? With the advent of the internet and improved distribution, there is way more sifting to go through. And, I have sat 5 feet away from John McGann while he's ripped through Limehouse blues. Dude's got soul, no doubt. Just because he can explain why he plays something instead of shining you on and saying "I just play what I feel" doesn't automatically disqualify him from being a "from-the-gut" player. Sorry for the book I've written here, but I like to play with soul, but I also like to know why what I'm doing sounds good (or bad, for that matter). YMMV, IMHO, blah blah.
Cheers,
Max

----------


## Jonathan Peck

Max,

I totally agree 100% with everything that you've said. I like new music. I just bought the new Cadilac Sky album, I have just about everything that Thile has come out with, as well as 2,000 more songs on my i-pod that's sitting on my desk that contains only about half of my bluegrass collection (I like to shuffle all and get some pretty weird segways otherwise)). I have another i-pod that contains over 20,000 songs which encompasses my classical, rock, opera, jazz, swing, funk, early blues, heavy metal, soul and R&B albums.

My XM presets in my car cover a wide variety of musical genres and time periods.

I have a stack of Steffey transcriptions here that I just punched and put in a binder which should keep me busy for the next four months.

I listen to alot of music and apreciate it, and some music speaks to me. Some music I can listen to over and over and never get tired of listening to it, and other music I can only listen to in small doses at a time. I love music, I'm passionate about and I don't think that my opinion counts any less than anyone elses. 

I already apologized to John in an earlier post, but he wants to take it all the way with me. I'm not intimidated and I'm not going to back down just because he's a moderator and a professional musician. I would prefer a civil discourse, but it seems that his tactic is to back me into a position and force me to defend it.

That is all.

----------


## jmcgann

Captain- We can still be friends for sure. I'm not trying to take it all the way with you, just to get you to name the graduates you mentioned who play from the head. Why take a position you can't defend, and complain if someone calls you on it? You shared some tales of friends for whom Berklee didn't work, but it still doesn't prove your original point. One can be a musical Nowhere Man whether they are at Berklee or Harvard or Joe's Bar and Grill...

Berklee has around 5000 students per semester. There are bound to be some bad experiences...MY own experiences here as a student in the '70's weren't 100% positive either...and not all the 'soulless hacks' are even performance majors; many come here from composition or film scoring or studio engineering, and aren't practing players as such- Many people leave Berklee barely able to play, not because of the school's failings, but because of their own choices...

I still think sweeping generalizations based on heresay is not good policy, especially when your original intent is not to offend. I wish i could have the bluegrass guitar lab students I just gave a final exam to chip in here about THEIR experiences at Berklee, or my Celtic or Django ensembles, etc.... or maybe I could suggest you look up some great Nashville players who ARE Berklee grads who HAPPEN to be SUCCESSFUL (in spite of their education?!?!?) like Casey Driessen (raw emotional power), Chris Pandolfi (guts) or Charlie Hutto (gonads)... but I'll just hope for them to go into the world and let the music do the talking- which, in the end, settles all arguments anyway.

----------


## Timbofood

You are starting to sound like an old martial arts movie: 
"Your Kung Fu No Good, Mine is only Kung Fu any Good" I still hold that there is an enormous number of musicians out there far superior to myself and if I can learn something from any of them I am happy and if I want to bellyache about something I will call a banjo player I know. Have some fun!

----------


## Jonathan Peck

"Captain- We can still be friends for sure. I'm not trying to take it all the way with you, just to get you to name the graduates you mentioned who play from the head. Why take a position you can't defend, and complain if someone calls you on it?"

Now come on John, that's not completely fair. What if I said name the bad jazz players or the lame bluegrass. 

"There's great jazz and bad jazz; great bluegrass and totally lame bluegrass."

Somebody sent me a PM informing me that you are both a graduate and instructor at Berklee, so I completely understand how my comment set you off and probably would have done the same if our positions were reversed. 

BTW - I wish I would have attended Berklee, even if just to be half as lame as those guys you mentioned

----------


## jmcgann

Now that we are all friends again, I would have to just bring in one non-bluegrass name, but someone who had great effect on the history of bluegrass music :

Django Reinhardt

A huge influence on many great old school bluegrass players including Clarence White. He wasn't for book learnin', had as much or more soul and imagination of just about any of his contemporaries- yet he knew exactly what he was doing, if only on his own terms and in his own world.

Oh yeah, music- that was the original topic! "Not like they used to"...Django has many hundreds of followers in his footsteps, many great players playing his music- but there is only one Django, and he's never been duplicated.

Peace y'all...

----------

if you think monroe even might play like adam steffey if he played a better set up,
you are either 
A: on drugs, give me some.
B. totaly dissalussioned
C. completley missing the point of bill monroe's bluegrass

you be the judge!

----------


## jmcgann

My quote:




> Maybe he'd have sounded more like Adam Steffy with an easy playing mandolin (that's tongue in cheek, son)...


John, 

A: look up "tongue in cheek" in the dictionary
B: develop a sense of humor
C: Ignore my posts. What do I know about Bill Monroe or bluegrass? You be the judge! Get to know me! I might be as dumb as I look, or maybe not!

PS- while you have the dictionary, check out the spelling and the definition of "disillusioned": 

"freed from illusion". Free at last!!! ##

----------

john whats your deal with raining on my parade? have some GRACE when someone comes any where near touching on something that might remotely offend you, ill admit im not exactly ghandi over here but none of this was even in the least bit appropriate to the context! and you tell me to develop a sense of humor? i joked all over this thread! the last one i just posted was a joke, and you are here telling me to develop a sense of humor? RIGHT AFTER A JOKE? what is your deal man!
(all together now) WHATS WITH THE ANIMOSITY!!

you really draged this one down in the dirt.

----------


## jmcgann

Raining on your parade? Sorry! Looked to me like you were missing the whole point of my joke! 

I'll wipe off the dirt and take it with me now. See ya. I still wanna know who the Jimmy Martin of R and B is, though...

----------

wow that was a heartfelt apology.

----------


## Tom Smart

The sad thing about the Internet is that highly educated, qualified, accomplished and helpful people like Don Stiernberg, Niles Hokkanen and, yes, John McGann, are on an equal footing with people who are actually proud of their lack of these qualities.

Education doesn't detract from a person's soul, abilities, credibility or anything else. Whatever a person is to begin with, education always adds more. Always.

When you have an opportunity to learn something from those who are wiser--and yes, maybe even older--than yourself, take it. Even if you end up disagreeing with your mentor, at least your opinion will be informed.

After a few years of embracing learning rather than scoffing at the learned, you might even find yourself becoming "totaly dissalussioned" with your former self.

----------

if you have to leave rather than be not so offensive, then thats fairly amazing. #and to have to tell us about it seals the deal, twice!

----------

who ever said they were proud of not being a college grad? im not a college grad, but im proud of myself anyway.
again someone is bringing in totaly weird stuff!

lets be frank here, the only reason why jmcgann posted here in this particular thread was because someone posted first.
he probably didnt even read this thread till then, and probably doesnt cruise the bluegrass section much considering his additude about the music.
that is a sincere observation.
so with that said, what is the stake in this?

the whole thing is about ego.
somewhere along the line things got flared up.

if this could have been handled with more grace, this conversation could have had some merit. 

wanna drop names on us too? #who cares man, its just open conversation, OBVIOUSLY everything they say is not GOLD!

people who are NOT highly educated qualified or accomplished are EQUALS to your names you dropped, and their comments may bear as much knowlege as anyone elses.

would this board be better if the 90 some percent of us who are "nobody" said nothing?

nobody here had a problem with learning from someone, and to the casual observer the obvious thing would be is that the guy spewing the gunk was not the wiser!!!

you have no idea who i am, and you can go make statements like i dont know how to "embrace learning" . you are totaly off base.
i dont need to go into my personal history but i will say that i am a skilled craftsman and artisan, and have studied and LEARNED for YEARS.
just because some guy who you have some kind of liking for spouts off on a message board and i dont like it doesnt mean a darn thing about learning.

you would be foolish to make such a statement about me, if you knew me at all. #

the sad thing about the internet is that people say things like this
"I still think sweeping generalizations based on heresay is not good policy, especially when your original intent is not to offend."

right along while they keep doing it and doing it and doing it.

----------

unless he truely means to offend then that makes perfect sense.

----------


## jmcgann

Lemon, you claim I am both offended and offensive- I'll speak for myself here: if you are going to be sarcastic and/or attempt to be humorous, using smileys or something like (tongue in cheek) indicates your intent. To me, it looked like you took my Monroe/Steffy joke seriously, and suggested that I'm "completley missing the point of Monroe's bluegrass", If you were joking, I had no way to tell.

I wasn't apologizing, and I'm not now...I tried to return to your original thread topic by bringing up Django, and you jumped on the Steffy/Monroe thing. The reason I announced I'm ducking out of the thread is to give it back to you. When I see Berklee bashing, which has happened before on the Café, I'm happy to jump in and take on people's prejudices and preconceptions. If you find my reactions to those kind of attacks offensive, so be it. Good luck with your music.

PS- just saw you calling me Don's toadie- that's really interesting if you count up the amount of posts we each have- I must be biding lots of time waiting for Don to post so i can agree with him. Shine on, you crazy diamond #

* Lemon- I see today that you edited your post to remove your calling me Don's toadie. The quote was "the only reason jmcgann even posted here is because Don Stiernberg did- he follows him around and always posts after him". Hey, nice mudslinging, buddy, and now you are brave enough to remove the quote! Glad to see you stand behind your statements just like Captain Crunch's "Berklee grads" quip. You guys are so funny!* #

----------

_&lt;Comment removed for violating board posting guidelines.&gt;_

----------


## jmcgann

Yes, Bodhisattva. Hilarious.

----------


## mythicfish

"john you are the jesse jackson of berklee.

now that was a joke."

A little humor?
VERY little humor!
I listened to your music, and it doesn't suck. You're just underappreciated.


Now if you could stop using your personality as a method of birth control ...

Curt

----------

_&lt;Comment removed for violating board posting guidelines.&gt;_

----------

RAY CHARLES!!!!! he's gotta be the jimmy martin of r n b when he plays r n b.

this thread went the ways of ten pounds of banjo in a five pound bag.

wait.....

flaming bag.

 


above and beyond it though, there is some GREAT stuff in this thread, good participation! i really am coming away from this thread with more interests and peices of information, exactly about what i asked, and then some!
john brought up some good stuff too, some of it in the heat of discussion so it may have easily been skimmed by due to the fast paced call and response going on.... so did everyone. i got way more info than i thought i would come out with, i mean that sincerly and in a good way.

rock out with your bach out all you learned peoples!

----------


## Don Stiernberg

Wow..

 It's all good, and we're all on the same team.

 My friend John Carlini calls Jimmy Martin "The Thelonius Monk of Bluegrass". I like that. And certainly that parallel between Brother Ray and The King of Bluegrass exists. Both were very strong individuals.

 I used to wonder more about connections between an artist's personality and the music...some of the most beautiful and moving music, stuff I can't live without, having been made by cats whose lives were
 incredibly sad, or at the least questionable. Now I don't wonder about it--I'm just grateful for the music.

 Did any of you cats see the triple banjo tune on Letterman last night? That was way soulful, what a rare treat. Steve Martin, Tony Trishcka, Bela Fleck, and who were those great cats on fiddle, guitar, and bass? Five solos!! Real music on TV!! Yeah, baby! I want more of that. You could feel the energy from the room, the fact that the audience knew they were hearing something special. Letterman exclaimed "That's Beautiful!" And it was--disparate styles coming together on a solid groove. I should have flipped the recorder on, but I was stunned-real music on TV!

 By the way, John Carlini's new CD is out and includes his version of Jimmy's OCEAN of DIAMONDS. It came out nice.

 And speaking of nice, let's all be nice, or go for the good notes instead of each other. While it's interesting to ponder these things, and many astute observations have been made(dig Niles's entry above, for example), we don't want to 
rank styles or players, have a contest, or get too personal.

 Hey, who knows if this was a real Miles Davis quote:

 "It's music. You don't talk about it, you play it."

 Thanks again friends, respectfully submitted by old Donnie.

----------


## Jonathan Peck

> Did any of you cats see the triple banjo tune on Letterman last night? That was way soulful, what a rare treat. Steve Martin, Tony Trishcka, Bela Fleck, and who were those great cats on fiddle, guitar, and bass?


The guitar player, the guy who wears the affected geek look and sings like Jimmy Martin and plays like Bill Monroe is Michael Daves (to bad he didn't get to sing). You can hear him trading vocals with Chris Thile on the Run Mountain cut on Tony's double banjo album.

Hehe, oh, and he went to one of those famous jazz schools in Mass. somewhere and studied under some heavy cats  

Run Mountain and two more cuts are up on Tony's myspace page
http://www.myspace.com/tonytrischka

----------


## Timbofood

I have heard a reference to Jimmy Martin as the "Ethel Merman" of BG. Glad to see that everybodys kung fu has regained it's value.
So who's the James Brown of BG?

----------

why john do you insist on being so childish about this?
do not put words in my mouth buddy. I NEVER CALLED YOU DON"S TOADIE. maybe you think you are so that is why you keep saying it.

you do however post right after him every time pretty much

dont beleive me? search dons posts.

its not making fun of you its not a personal attack, it is just an observation.

i changed it so i would not offend DON. NOT YOU mcgann.

so anyway there it is again.

i NEVER called you a toadie, AND YOUR QUOTE YOU MADE HALF OF IT UP YOURSELF THANKS FOR LYING!
i never said you "follow him around" NEVER EVER!

can you try for a bit to not be so freaking insecure? I NEVER CALLED YOU A TOADIE!!!!!

i would never use such a word either, it sounds pretty stupid! definatly not somethink i would say anyways!

it doesnt matter why you post after don. it could be because he is an interesting person and you enjoy his comments like most of us think and thats how it caught your interest. 
MY POINT WAS IS THAT YOU HAVE NO STAKE IN THIS GAME!!!
you dont care for the original conversation!

the only reason you participated was because you had to go off about "less skilled self-appointed people"
and be totaly stiring up problems and offending people because someone mentioned berklee and you chose to handle it in a way i would call
NOT CLASSY.

again i say this conversation could have had some merit if it wasnt all this b.s. and bashing!

NOBODY BASHED BERKLEE. a guy gave an opinion, wich you didnt like.

get over yourself!

i can see that my email to you that tried to make some peace out of it, had no affect on you and you choose to come back today to make more war.

uncool. and uncool to make up your own lines for MY quote.
that is so not classy as well.

for real dude, you totaly do not make a good case for yourself by making things up, and talking more trash when it was you who totaly hijacked the thread SO YOU COULD TALK TRASH!!!!!

light a match cause your you know what stinks too.

----------

for the record the only word i changed was "someone" from don stiernberg. THATS ALL. now go read it if you care.

i stand on my word man.

NO MUDSLINGING. if you think the truth is mud slinging, then whatever.

even if i took someones name out, the statement is the same and means the exact same thing.

dont try and put words in my mouth, or try to change the meaning of what i said.

you know its true.

what did you really want to add to conversation besides getting out your ill feelings towards bluegrass people.

its rediculous man. #your broad sweeping generalizations were not appreciated.

----------


## earthsave

> check out David Peterson and 1946 - I think you'll like it.
> Mike Compton plays mando on the cd.
> Kirk


Probably already been addressed, but I dont think Mike Compton played much of mando for 1946. He may have guested but Charlie Derrington played on the first one and Mickey Boles played on the most recent one I have.

But I do agree that Mike Compton and Mickey Boles play the 30's through 50's style of Monroe and others.

----------


## Scott Tichenor

This discussion seems less about music than winning arguments. I'm finding a number of posts above that violate the posting guidelines that govern this site. If you're unable to interpret those, or if you just don't want to adhere to them, then find somewhere else to hang out. I will tolerate this no further.

----------


## jmcgann

> what did you really want to add to conversation besides getting out your ill feelings towards bluegrass people.


The ideas, since you asked:

1) Just because someone went to Berklee doesn't equal them being slick or soulless.

2) To assume a Berklee grad (the mythical unnamed one) plays more from the head than from the heart is prejudice.

3) The idea that "good music" and the other kind happens regardless of style- old school, new school- who cares as long as it's good, soulful music?

4) "Soul" is in the mind of the receiver. One man's soulful can be another man's slick, or whatever (as you like to say)..

5) I've been playing bluegrass since 1975. You seem to think I am out of my element here. I disagree.

6) Guys like Joe Walsh, Casey Driessen etc. are Berklee grads and their music speaks for itself.

7) Someone knows some people who went to Berklee and didn't like it, so second hand opinions about Berklee are being thrown around. Expect some counter opinions.

8) Going to Berklee doesn't guarantee squat. Not going to Berklee doesn't either. Soul is developed or not developed by the way a person lives and what they experience. There is not a player (or instrument owner) on the planet who will claim to not be soulful!

9) Django and Nate Bray are awesome. So are Buzz, Jethro, Don, and 6500 others, old and new school. Simple and soulful, complex and soulful- if it's good, it's good!

10) You claimed I only posted because Don posted. Believe it or not, I am not only a bluegrass musician and fan, I teach it at Berklee as well, and I am interested in seeing what people have to say about it, and I cruise through most sections of the Café pretty regularly because it's interesting (and I waste too much time where I should be practicing or studying Monroe solos!). You didn't use the word "toadie" but that was what you were aiming at.

11) I have personally experienced, both in print via reviews and in person, these self appointed keepers of the flame which hit such a nerve with you. They have been people rather devout in their views about purity of the style, what does and doesn't belong, and each of them was a pretty weak musician in my estimation. Writers have the bully pulpit and can tell people what to think, which plays into my signature quote from Rostropovich. That comment was NOT aimed at you. And, as I said, it is NOT about BLUEGRASS- I have had facists in all the styles I play give me direct hits about what is and isn't authentic/soulful/correct etc. It's the same jerk with different clothes in each style (actually in subdivisions of styles too, the rockabilly snob, the punk rock snob etc). This is personal experience as a professional player, NOT what I overheard at a jam session!

I would really prefer any further discussion about my role in this stuff to be private- anyone can PM me or email me. I'm easy to find.

----------


## EggerRidgeBoy

> Did any of you cats see the triple banjo tune on Letterman last night? That was way soulful, what a rare treat. Steve Martin, Tony Trishcka, Bela Fleck, and who were those great cats on fiddle, guitar, and bass? Five solos!! Real music on TV!! Yeah, baby! I want more of that. You could feel the energy from the room, the fact that the audience knew they were hearing something special. Letterman exclaimed "That's Beautiful!" And it was--disparate styles coming together on a solid groove. I should have flipped the recorder on, but I was stunned-real music on TV!


The fiddler is Brittany Haas ( http://www.brittanyhaas.com/ ), the guitarist Michael Daves, the bassist Skip Ward. Together they make up Tony's Double Banjo Bluegrass Spectacular Band, which has been touring in support of his recent CD, usually with either Noam Pikelny or Greg Liszt on the second banjo. Tony also recently formed the Tony Trischka & Michael Daves Bluegrass Band, in order to continue playing some bluegrass after the current CD support tour is over (their first gig is scheduled for September 15). I'm not quite sure if Skip and Brittany are part of that band or not.

Brittany's older sister Natalie plays the cello and is part of Mark O'Conner's Appalachian Waltz Trio ( http://www.nataliehaas.com/ ).

The performance has been posted to YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jn3KCZEqxc

----------


## Scott Tichenor

Let me say this a little louder, as it appears my moderator missed that last cue. I've had enough. Figure it out or I will for you.

----------


## jmcgann

Scott, I've invited private discussion on this from here on.

----------


## Timbofood

Thanks Scott, it was getting a bit "deep" Some people just gotta be cranky

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> Quote #
> I want to hear it played like a saxophone. 
> 
> Good luck with that!
> 
> 
> That's not as far-fetched as you might think. #Tony Rice has spoken often about how much he's been influenced by jazz horn players, even more so than jazz guitar players. #You can read a couple of such comments here and here.
> ...


To be more exact, Rice listened to a lot of cats, like Coltrane, Peterson,
and Miles Davis, #absorbed and transformed ideas from them.
 But he plays guitar, not tenor sax, piano or trumpet. You could probably
transcribe and analyze his stuff and find out where he connects 
 with these jazz musicians, but I don't think it's
a conscious thing. And I would say, even playing bluegrass
(of sorts) #he will do things that profited from these influences without
in any way jazzing it up, or introducing oriental modes, and diminshed scales, or whatever. 

I once saw a video of him sharing the stage with several other guitarists,
like Dan Crary and Steve Kaufman. Although Rice is pretty far removed from
my own ideal of lead guitar (which derives from Zeke Turner, Harold Bradley,
Charlie Christian, and Karl Farr)
 he was way above the rest, less square, less
predictable rhythmically or harmonically. There was nothing ostentatious about it, it just flowed from his knowledge
of music, what you can do with it,
 coupled with the mood and
groove of the piece they were playing.





PS: The interviews were good, though. I really appreciate what he says about
younger cats playing so fast and densely that he has trouble assimilating 
their stuff.

----------


## Timbofood

Maybe John Duffey was the James Brown of BG. He had interesting hair, interesting taste in clothes...

----------


## poymando

I'll second Don on Red Ratliff. I'm happy to have met him and heard him play a few times. He recorded with Buster Pack for Rich'R'Tone back in the in 1950. The real deal.
I'll also toss in for Jimmy Martin as the James Brown of BG. Crazy genius, big ears, major stylist etc....

----------


## Peter Hackman

A personal statement. I don't know if it belongs here, but I'm not sure
any more what this thread is about.

I've been trying to play music for 49 years. In the last half of the 60's Bluegrass
dominated my musical interests completely,
 inspiring me to take up the mandolin,
travel around Eastern US in 1969, going to festivals, jamming with
amateurs, and a few pros (Bill Emerson, Tom Gray, Doug Green, Andy Stein 
(on bass!)),
playing with friends in #bars and even sitting in with local groups in the DC area. 

In 1970 I all but lost interest. I realized I was still a stranger to the idiom in spite of learning
lots of tunes and tricks on the mandolin. I realized I couldn't relate
to the topics of the songs, or the cultural background of the most prominent
practitioners of the idiom. For instance, I'm not American, #I grew
up in a big city (Stockholm),
 there was no music at home, and we didn't go to church.


But I liked to play, I liked to improvise,
and found there was very little room for that in Bluegrass
as it was known in those days.
I've listened a lot to jazz and knew some jazz tricks as well (mainly on guitar)
and I wanted to use all that.

Since then I simply don't care what anything is called. If I play a Monroe
tune (there are a few on my website) I don't play it Bluegrass, neither
do I jazz it up. All I try to do is hear the possibities, the harmonies,
the groove and the atmosphere of the tune and base the guitar arrangement
and mandolin improvisations on that, using of course, all the knowledge
I had before I heard Earl Taylor's UA album.


 I've also written tunes that
in no way resemble BG tunes, but share their triadic harmony, and
to which my BG-derived guitar figures and possibly mandolin licks
apply. So I didn't turn my back on the idiom, neither did I embrace it,
I just used it, the way I use any experience.

I would hope to hear something similar - done with more skill, taste and knowledge, of course - from today's players, instead of some kind of faster, slicker, trickier supergrass, that often sounds like they would actually want
to play something else altogether.

----------


## Mike Bunting

Thank you, Peter! The best explanation so far, we play like who we are, the sum of our life.

----------


## AlanN

Yes Peter, erudite and sensible.

----------


## mythicfish

"I realized I was still a stranger to the idiom in spite of learning
lots of tunes and tricks on the mandolin. I realized I couldn't relate
to the topics of the songs, or the cultural background of the most prominent
practioners of the idiom."

Peter, you're not alone in this. To wit, the following chorus written by a good friend:

I'm on my way back to the old home
In that development not far from Exit 10
But there's no light in the window
They all must be out at the mall again.

Curt

----------


## Jonathan Peck

> 7) Someone knows some people who went to Berklee and didn't like it, so second hand opinions about Berklee are being thrown around. Expect some counter opinions.


John, sorry I should have been more specific. When I said "oh, and he went to one of those famous jazz schools in Mass. somewhere and studied under some heavy cats" I was refering to the University of Massachusetts. Sorry to have left to much room for interpretation

-jonathan

----------


## Timbofood

I was just thinking that we also need to take into consideration the advances of the recording industry and that influence on "musicianship" Some of the best were recorded on what is now quite primitive equipment not the digital masterpieces that can "Shake and Bake" a session from many inputs. Not saying that's bad, just "new."

----------


## mandopete

Did someone say Gibson?

----------


## tiltman

Earthsave -
"Probably already been addressed, but I dont think Mike Compton played much of mando for 1946. He may have guested but Charlie Derrington played on the first one and Mickey Boles played on the most recent one I have."

The CD I was referring to is "In the Mountaintops to Roam" (David Peterson and 1946). According to the liner notes Mike Compton played mando on tracks 1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14.
That's an awful lot of Mike Compton on that disc!


 

It's why I got the disc but now I really like David Peterson too.


Kirk

----------


## Dave Gumbart

Geez - I don't post much, let along on these "hot" topics. But do you want soul? You want Berklee? Rushad Eggleston is your man! If you're not familiar with the band Crooked Still, do yourself a favor....

Dave G

----------


## jmcgann

Thanks Dave G. Rushad is the man!
besides, Aoife graduated New England Conservatory, I think Corey did as well, and Greg Liszt has a doctorate from MIT (besides being Springsteen's 5 string man). Pretty soulful for a bunch of smarties.

----------


## mandopete

Not bluegrass, but there is another Berklee graduate who in my mind has quite a bit of "soul" in his music. #His name is Pat Metheny!

----------


## jmcgann

Pat isn't a graduate- he taught for a semester at the age of 16 or something. Wasn't even a student...

----------


## Jonathan Peck

I was at a jam one night that Rushad also attended. He is completely insane....in a good way. Quite the ham. Great front man and really enjoys playing to the audience and goofing around....and that coonskin cap

----------


## travers chandler

> Thanks Dave G. Rushad is the man!
> besides, Aoife graduated New England Conservatory, I think Corey did as well, and Greg Liszt has a doctorate from MIT (besides being Springsteen's 5 string man). Pretty soulful for a bunch of smarties.


Yeah i remember when those guys worked for Red Allen!!

----------


## Klaus Wutscher

> Pat isn't a graduate- he taught for a semester at the age of 16 or something. Wasn't even a student...


 # # 


As it happened in some other threads, I find mandocrucians comments quite interesting, but they got, well, "sidelined" by some less than stellar discussions....

In that particular generation (Monroe and his peers) bluegrass/early country was pretty much the only outlet for outcasts/mentally challenged musicians. As he said, if they were 10/15 years younger, they would have most likely turned to rockabilly. But in their time, they had to act the part (as Monroe did) while their private life was not exactly up to "good christian standards". That adds considerable mental tension which shows in the music. And they were SERIOUS about that. If someone gets into bluegrass these days, it might be for totally different reasons, and the music will come out differently.

----------


## Peter Hackman

Seeing how hot the topic is, maybe there should be a separate thread
on formal musical education. My 50 öre (appr. 7 cents; the smallest coin we have)
 is:

Hackman's Theorem:
 A degree in music is essential if you want to make a living as a teacher.

----------


## jmcgann

> Hackman's Theorem:
> A degree in music is essential if you want to make a living as a teacher.


Wrong. I've been teaching for 30 years, I have no degree, and I've gotten the students I've made a living from because they have heard me play and asked if I taught and/or word of mouth. 

I Got the gig at Berklee based on professional (performance) track record. Again- no degree.

A degree in music won't even get you a gig teaching in public schools (you need a musEd degree which is something else altogether from a music degree).

A degree in music by itself leads to NO guaranteed job.

----------


## jmcgann

> Quote (jmcgann @ May 01 2007, 12:14)
> Thanks Dave G. Rushad is the man!
> besides, Aoife graduated New England Conservatory, I think Corey did as well, and Greg Liszt has a doctorate from MIT (besides being Springsteen's 5 string man). Pretty soulful for a bunch of smarties.
> 
> Yeah i remember when those guys worked for Red Allen!!


Yeah, they took Tex Logan's place

----------


## travers chandler



----------


## flatthead

Tex missed that show because he musta been busy studying sub-atomic particle theory.....or maybe he was at Cheapo's Records....... :Smile:

----------


## jmcgann

Read in stuffy upper class British accent:




> _ Whether or not one has beeen to school, kick arse is kick arse!_

----------


## Peter Hackman

> I wonder how many of the "Gee, no real bluegrass pickers graduate from Berkley" type "thinkers" have really LISTENED to what's going on in the Monroe/Flatt and Scruggs original bluegrass band- if they hear someone ELSE play like Chubby Wise (heavy Grapelli influence) or Cedric Rainwater (WALKING BASS!!!! THAT'S JAZZZZZZZZ!!!  ) they'd be the first to head for the door thinking "that's not traditional!" Maybe because rather than going to the actual roots of the music, they are more geared toward listening to much later generation neo-traditional bands that play in a style that is very conservative and has less to do with the original *spirit* of Monroe-Scruggs and more with the *mannerisms*.
> 
> Plus, they probably can't do that stuff anyway, so it must be bad


Monroe on Chubby Wise : "If he'd go swinging on my tunes I'd stop him
from that". 

...


Why would anyone object to walking bass? Tom Gray used that a lot with
the Country Gentlemen. George Shuffler often supplied a honky-tonk
beat a la Ray Price to the Stanley Brothers' recordings. With Reno and Harrell
he sometimes played even more bass than that -his bass playing was far superior to his guitar work. (Tom Gray dipped into that bag when I jammed with him, but it seems he never played like that on records or on stage).


You sure it's jazz? Maybe it was inspired by the basso continuo in baroque
music ... 

One problem with today's bluegrassers is that they *retain*
too many of the limiting traits of the idiom, e.g., that fast tense
2/2 that makes just anybody's mind and fingers freeze
into predictability. A good bass player would work wonders with the
groove, create more variety, more inventive soloing, and, yes,
_soul_.

----------


## mythicfish

... one to change the lightbulb and four to say "That's not how Earl would have done it."

Curt

----------


## Jonathan Peck

.....just one to hold the light bulb while the earth revolves around them

----------


## cooper4205

who was playing bass on the early recording the Stanley's did of Pretty Polly, i can't remember if it was cut in 1949 or 1950?

----------


## travers chandler

The date was 1950......Ernie Newton was the bass player on that session.....

----------


## jmcgann

Travers, your band sounds great! 
I'd like to ask your opinion for people who are less familiar with the old school stuff- would you mind listing some of your favorite recordings? Especially if you have particular Charlie Moore favorites- thanks!

----------


## Jonathan Peck

In the words of Ice T:

"Don't hate the playa', hate the game"

There was once a pretty heated discussion on a blues forum that I sometimes hang out on. For some reason, some people seemed to think that if you are white middle class you can't play the blues like them old dudes...and if you drive a gas guzzling SUZ you're doomed to a life of mediocre complacency never being able to feel the pain of the originators and thus so far removed from the source that any pathetic attempt to feel the music should be laughed at while you drown your sorrows in a tall frappacino.....of course the discussion then revolved around what is the blues mobile of choice.

To which I add "if it sounds good....it is good" 

Regards
-jonathan....who sometimes drives to jams in his gas guzzling bling mobile

----------


## Jonathan Peck

This one gets my vote as the bluegrassmobile of choice...definitlely gots some soul

Buick Roadmaster Riviera

----------


## Michael H Geimer

Like this?

----------


## mandopete

Nah, like this...

----------


## Michael H Geimer

> Plus 40 more BIG Bluegrass bands!


How do they all fit in there?

----------


## Jonathan Peck

How about the queen of soul singing the famous opera aria "Nessun dorma!"

"The Queen of Soul jumps in for her ailing colleague Pavarotti to sing this aria from Puccini's "Turandot."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9v9Zpd4ulQ

----------


## travers chandler



----------


## J.Albert

If anyone would like to hear a modern band "playing it the old way", go over to alt.binaries.sounds.mp3.bluegrass and listen to the live show by David Peterson & 1946 with Mickey Bowles playing mandolin. He's as "Monruvian" as one can get!

This is a 36-song concert recorded in August 2005 at the Station Inn down in Nashville. Along with Dave (guitar) and Mickey, there is Charlie Cushman playing great banjo in a combination of Scruggs and Reno styles, with Mike Bub on bass and Matt Combs who appeared to be sitting in on fiddle but whose playing sounds as a smooth as if he'd been a regular member of the band.

What's remarkable about this show is the quality of the recording. Whoever recorded it took his inputs directly from the soundboard into an audio interface/computer setup, and either recorded multiple tracks (and mixed down later), or did a wonderful job "mixing on the fly". The show almost sounds good enough to be a "live commercial" album. Perhaps it is a "dry run" for exactly that.

Also of late in the BG mp3 group, someone has been posting recordings from the _original_ 1976 Berkshire Mountains Bluegrass Festival. There are shows by Bill Monroe with has band from that time, and a nice set by Phil Rosenthal when he was still playing with his "Old Dog" band from the New Haven area (he even mentions a request I made for his instrumental, "Hot Stuff"). Again, these seem to have been made directly from the soundboard - clean and mixed down into stereo.

- John

----------

