# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  New Pono octaves!

## dchernack

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/97123#97123
https://vimeo.com/162012592

Great news to see on the classifieds this morning. I bet these have the possibility of becoming the least expensive octaves available on the American market... different scale-length options, spruce and rosewood or spruce and mahogany... wonder if solid woods will come standard? Either way, I'm excited to find out about a pricepoint and then probably just buy one. Sounds sooo good!

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Bigtuna, 

BlackMandolin, 

darylcrisp, 

Mark Gunter, 

Mark Wilson, 

Pick&Grin, 

red7flag

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## Pick&Grin

Nice! Wonder what the price will be.

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## red7flag

I am a GOM fan, having had a Weber and now a Mowry.  That Poma is a really nice sounding instrument.  Guess I better dig my Mowry out and see if I can come close.

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Mark Gunter

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## EdHanrahan

Very nice!

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## Trey Young

I'm very interested to see what these retail for....

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## multidon

Pono ukes are not cheap. They range from 400 to 900 or so. I would expect the price to be in the neighborhood of the upper range of that or a bit beyond.

Lots of questions about design. I hope that a company used to nylon string tension would take into consideration the much higher stresses on the neck and body from steel strings in the design elements.

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## Mark Wilson

It does sound nice.  I saw their post on AGF - this one might be a one-off




> the attached video is the smaller version, using our UL 11 1/4" body, a 21.5" scale, body meets at the 12th, and internally re-braced to allow for 8 steel strings. 
> Tuned GDAE.
> this one is Mahogany with a cedar top, but we will use spruce for future models. 
> 
> Another model will be larger, using our BN 13 5/8" body, a 13" scale, and body will meet at the 14th fret. 
> Final models will be both Mahogany and Rosewood, with Engelmann Spruce tops. 
> Still in the working stages, but couldn't help but show off the first one

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## Barry Wilson

sure sounds good with him playing

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## Ron McMillan

That has a lovely sound. I'll be interested to learn more.

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## boombox

Definitely sounds nice. The choice of scale length is appealing too. The only problem is choosing between mahogany and rosewood.

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## Freddyfingers

I had the same questions.  Sent them an email.  They are still,prototypes , at this point, but he goal was to keep them at $1000.  They do quite a bit of set up before it ships.   The price  is not extreme for an octave, and for me the sound of this is warm, I like it.

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## choctaw61

Very nice indeed.I like the look as well as the sound.May be one of those gotta have one.why did I watch that video!

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## Dave Hanson

Some builders seem to me to be on a mission to make everything look like a guitar.

Don't know why ?

Dave H

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## Freddyfingers

Without creating a uproar, but doesn't a bigger body project a fuller sound?   Wouldn't the little guitar shape add to the bass end of the instrument?  or is it just that the bigger body allows for more reverberation, and a standard A shape only larger would do the same?   Loyd Loar I am not.

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## foldedpath

> Some builders seem to me to be on a mission to make everything look like a guitar.
> 
> Don't know why ?


In the case of GBOMs (guitar-body octave mandolins), it's usually the result of re-purposing an existing body in a builders' inventory to open up an additional market. All you need is a new neck and headstock, basically. Maybe some heavier bracing for the additional string tension. Pono isn't the only one doing this; it's been done by Weber, Eastman, Santa Cruz, and others. 

There may be some thinking that guitarists will find these shapes easier to relate to, but I think it's mainly just taking advantage of existing tooling and materials to nudge into a different market.

I'm sure this Pono OM will find a market, especially if they can bring it in under $1,000. We need more affordable OMs. Personally though, I'm not a fan of guitar-shaped CBOMs and/or flat top designs. I already have several nice guitars. 

When it comes to OMs, I prefer the looks and tone of a big Gibson-style mandolin on steroids, where the "chorrnng" is clear and doesn't get buried with a woofy bass from a guitar body, or sound too much like a 12-string guitar. I also like the more focused, midrangey sound of a hand-carved archtop. It's a dark, moody flavor; something different than the jangle of a flattop bouzouki. But that's just me. Everyone has different ideas in the OM world. It's not an instrument with a deep history, so the designs are all over the place.
 :Smile:

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Bob Clark, 

Chuck Leyda, 

darylcrisp, 

Mark Gunter, 

SincereCorgi, 

Tommcgtx

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## whitelines

this thing sounds incredible!

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## fredhicks

Is there any sheet music to what he is playing?

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## Al Trujillo

Love the sound from that one!  Hope they go full production on it.

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## soliver

Definitely very cool... It's not a ukulele  :Laughing:

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## Mark Gunter

> Some builders seem to me to be on a mission to make everything look like a guitar.
> 
> Don't know why ?
> 
> Dave H


I don't think they are necessarily on a mission, most probably just have practical reasons as foldedpath has imagined. Kilin Reece in this very video says something to the effect of "This is what happens when a mandolin player goes to work at a guitar factory".

I'd also like to have one that looks like an F5 on steroids, but in reality the first one I own will have a guitar body with a longer scale length than I really want - because of the size of the half-finished resonator guitar that I decided to convert to an OM. If I could afford to buy a pre-made OM of the quality I want, I wouldn't be experimenting with guitar-like prototypes.

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## Mark Gunter

Does anyone know the name of the first tune he is playing in that video?

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## fredhicks

I'll go ahead and ask again.......anybody know the first tune he played?

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## Mark Gunter

> I'll go ahead and ask again.......anybody know the first tune he played?


I think the thread is dead, Fred.

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## fredhicks

Poop.......

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## darylcrisp

guys, i'll find out that tune for you, i'll approach Kilin thru the AGF and invite him to come on board here with this thread.

d

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Mark Gunter

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## dchernack

I don't know the name of the tune, but I would love to know it if anyone finds out!

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## NoApplause

I really want one of these. Really hoping they go into production. Wondering, If production price point is 1K, but they don't go into production, would a custom be 2K-3K?.

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## Kilin Reece

Hello all and sorry I missed this thread. My name is Kilin Reece, Ive  been an active member of the mandolin café community for many years now as well as a working musician playing mandolin and guitar.  There's a lot of questions in this thread that I would like to respond to, please don't hesitate to contact me directly if anything needs clearing up: www.krstrings.com

Krstrings@gmail.com

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## Kilin Reece

First off, the song I played is a Hawaiian song written by the great Kahuanu Lake for his wife  Ma'iki, it is called Pua Lili Lehua. One of my favorites, like many songs written by Hawaiians it combines affection for flowers, rain, and sweethearts all in one, not unlike Bill Monroes composition, "Little Georgia Rose" or "Wildwood Flower". 

     We have begun production on these instruments and I should have them in October. I have settled in on two models, as well as two different finish options and two different Tonewood combinations. The most deluxe model will be Indian Rosewood back and sides and Englemann Spruce top from B.C., very thin gloss finish bound in ebony with an abalone Rosette. The tuning keys will be gold, the fingerboard and Bridge are both high-grade Ebony with a real bone nut and saddle. The bridge design is a slightly more robust take on a tiple bridge, with bridge pins, also of ebony with abalone dots.  For those who prefer mahogany we will also have all the same specs and appointments, but with very high quality ribbon mahogany back and sides. 
       We are also offering both Tonewood combinations in a satin finish option, the only difference being the Rosette which will be rope purfling and the tuning keys will be nickel silver.

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## Kilin Reece

The body styles we are offering are a "Terz" size, and a Tenor Guitar size. 
Here are the dimensions of the Terz body style
Headstock:  Solid
Overall Length:  33"
Body Length:  16"
Lower Bout Width:  11 1/4"
Upper Bout Width:  7 3/4"
Lower Bout Depth:  3 7/8"
Upper Bout Depth:  3 1/4"
Scale Length:  21.5"
Soundhole Diameter:  2 1/8"

Number of Frets, Body to Neck:  12
Total Number of Frets:  18

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## Kilin Reece

The Tenor guitar measures as follows:
Total length: 35.5"
Lower bout: 13 5/8"
23" scale
14 frets to the body

I'd like to answer the questions regarding the structural design and integrity of this instrument using steel strings and whether or not this is an attempt to simply use pre-existing molds and design for mandolin family instruments. The team designing these two octave mandolin have over 30 years experience building and repairing the finest acoustic string instruments in the world. In addition to building the custom Ko'olau guitars and Ukuleles, our shop was also for many years a thriving warranty center for Martin, Gibson, Taylor, and many more.  All of this experience has informed our thinking in the development of this concept. Both these models feature steel string X brace top bracing, rosewood bridge plates, two way adjustable truss rods and radiused tops and backs. Blocks and kerfing are all made from the highest grade kiln dried and seasoned Genuine Mahogany, with our tops hand picked from British Columbia. 
With regards to the aesthetic appeal of a guitar bodied mandolin family instrument, I'd have to say this concept is not entirely unprecedented historically. Double coursed mandolin family instruments with hourglass bodies go back at least to the 19 teens, I have in my collection several mandolinettos, which while lacking in acoustic prowess certainly have a visual appeal to me. Of course there is the world of Tiples as well.... But I have to say I also have a huge affection for the traditional designs of  Gibson's arch top mandolins. This is a copy of the Loar A I recently built for a client on Maui that being said, I do feel like there are acoustic tonal qualities to flattop instruments of these dimensions that while allowing mandolin players to still have familiar fingerings, offer a new scope of tone, depth and sustain that arch top instruments of teardrop or Florentine design do not possess. Definitely not better, but certainly different. And if we accomplish nothing more than allowing mandolinist to accompany themselves while singing without having to recruit cranky guitar players I will have accomplished something indeed. (Kidding  :Smile:

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Mandolin Cafe, 

Woodrow Wilson

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## Kilin Reece

_Moderator's edit:_
As per Discussion Board Guidelines, let's keep pricing specs out of the Forum. Information is available on the website, and members are welcome to pursue purchase opportunities through the Classifieds as well.

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## Kilin Reece

Sorry no sheet music! Cheers-Ki

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## Br1ck

I can attest to Pono quality. I own a Uke and two guitars. All are top quality construction. No plastic, and great woods provide real value.

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## bazza

Definitely looking into one of these. Choices might be limited in Europe though, and I'd be curious to see how the different scale lengths feel. I'm almost at a "take my money already" stage! Exactly what I'm on the hunt for.

I had been in touch with Kilin via email, and he mentioned that a guy in Galway purchased one. If he's on here and can get a video up, I'd be curious!

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## Matt Hutchinson

Just watched the two videos here and these look/sound like amazing instruments. I'd love to get my hands on the two sizes and hear the difference from a playing perspective. I hear Trevor's getting stock in at TAMCO here in the UK next year so may have to pop down and have a play (if they don't fly straight out, which I suspect they might!)

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## trevor

Yes I have six on order, can't wait. Due 2nd week jan.

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## Matt Hutchinson

I'll have to pop down and try one. Which body size/tonewood combos did you opt for?

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## trevor

M-20 Mahogany
M-30SB Rosewood Sunburst
MD-30 Rosewood
MN-20SB Mahogany Sunburst
MN-30 Rosewood
MND-30SB Rosewood Sunburst

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## Matt Hutchinson

All bases covered then!

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## barrycreed

Watched all the videos. Once I sell my own mando, I'm going to look into one of these. May have to travel to Brighton from Ireland to try one out! It would be nice to play the different scale lengths, just to see...

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## trevor

My first delivery of six arrived today. I am VERY impressed! I only had time to get two on my website, more tomorrow.

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red7flag

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## Petrus

> Great news to see on the classifieds this morning. I bet these have the possibility of becoming the least expensive octaves available on the American market... different scale-length options, spruce and rosewood or spruce and mahogany... wonder if solid woods will come standard? Either way, I'm excited to find out about a pricepoint and then probably just buy one. Sounds sooo good!


The Trinity College OM is a good one, also a flat-top but with lute shaped body and floating rather than fixed bridge.  In the $500 range used.

I think the hourglass body (guitar concert/parlor sized) of the Pono will be more comfortable for holding on the knee (part of the design logic behind the guitar body in the first place.)  The Trinity College tended to slip a lot, in my experience, and really demanded a strap.

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## Ron McMillan

> My first delivery of six arrived today. I am VERY impressed! I only had time to get two on my website, more tomorrow.


I look forward to seeing the rest of the photos when they go up.

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## bazza

Anyone know if these might be available in Ireland sometime?

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## trevor

I am happy to ship to Ireland from the UK.

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## trevor

I have had time to get them all on my website now and spend some time playing them. The more I play them the more impressed I am.

Here's some more photos.

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red7flag

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## Br1ck

I have two Pono guitars, a matched pair of rosewood parlors, a six and a 12 string. I believe they are the body size of the larger of the Pono octaves. Pono build quality is excellent with nary a piece of plastic anywhere, binding included.

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## Brad Weiss

I just received an MN-30SB tenor guitar body, rosewood, sunburst matte finish today. It sounds great, it's surprisingly easy to play, even with a 23" scale. The fit and finish - well the fit is very nice, the matte finish is not gorgeous, but fine.  I was very surprised to find that it is made in Indonesia.  None of the information I was able to find out about it on the web suggested this.  $1300+ for a flat-top axe made in Indonesia, ok it's not a fortune, but that seems high to me.  I do like the octave, which is great. I might have hesitated to buy it had I known where it was built. I am NOT being xenophobic, or casting aspersions on Indonesian craftsmen. But I do think this info should be available to potential buyers.

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## MikeEdgerton

Wow, those look great. Affordable too. I'm going to have to take a look at one. I'm a sucker for sunburst's.

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...But I do think this info should be available to potential buyers.


From their website. It would appear that information is readily available to those that look for it. 

http://koolauukulele.com/pono-f-a-q/

From that page:




> Q – Where are Pono Guitars and Ukuleles made?  
> 
> A – For most of the 14 years that we have been making Pono Guitars and Ukuleles we have had a factory on the island of Java in Indonesia.  A few years ago we found a very experienced group of classical guitar makers in a northern province of China, and thus some models were made in that factory.  They were beautiful and sounded good. China now has a bad reputation for making cheap junk, but China actually has the longest history of the arts and high quality craftsmanship. But somewhere along the line, after being commissioned by US and European companies to make cheap stuff, they acquired the reputation for only making inferior quality goods.
> But our main issue with China was the location.  Our factory, which included older and experienced craftsman was very remote and rural.  So it was difficult for the transport of supplies and export of our instruments.  It also became difficulty for us to actually be in the factory (which is mandatory for on site quality control). And so, we discontinued production in China.  So to answer the question, for the most part we have been in Indonesia, and will continue there in the future.

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## Br1ck

> I just received an MN-30SB tenor guitar body, rosewood, sunburst matte finish today. It sounds great, it's surprisingly easy to play, even with a 23" scale. The fit and finish - well the fit is very nice, the matte finish is not gorgeous, but fine.  I was very surprised to find that it is made in Indonesia.  None of the information I was able to find out about it on the web suggested this.  $1300+ for a flat-top axe made in Indonesia, ok it's not a fortune, but that seems high to me.  I do like the octave, which is great. I might have hesitated to buy it had I known where it was built. I am NOT being xenophobic, or casting aspersions on Indonesian craftsmen. But I do think this info should be available to potential buyers.


All the information about how Pono runs as a company is proudly presented on their web site. Pono roughly translated means done correctly. On the website they explain their use of local woods, compensating workers with a real living wage, health and retirement benefits on parr with a first world country, really their whole life philosophy. That you didn't bother to investigate and feel somehow blindsided by the fact you were ignorant of these facts is not Pono's fault but yours. I'm sorry you feel foreign workers don't deserve to have great working conditions. If you feel your instrument is not worth what you paid, send it back. Their return policy is unconditional if in as new condition.

Oh, and you can pick up the phone and talk to the owner. John Kitakas is his name.

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## Brad Weiss

I apologize for my misinformation. I had only looked at the info on the Mandolin Store page, and the KR strings cite.  I have no problem with the instrument - it plays like a dream, and it sounds like a deep tenor guitar with the sparkle of  mandolin.

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## Br1ck

Yes, retailers don't do much in the way of mfg location info. These days you can get the biggest POS or a fine handmade instrument from China, but old perceptions die hard.

Have you ever seen a retailer say we carry Northfield mandolins, crafted in China?

I had a cracked bridgepin on a Pono guitar so called John Kitakas to see if I could buy a new one. They didn't have any more of that style, so I said I'd buy a new set of whatever they were using now. He said he'd just send me some. I told him I didn't buy the guitar new from him, and I was at least the third owner. It didn't matter to him. Said they should never split and sent me a set.

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## Mandolin Cafe

> Have you ever seen a retailer say we carry Northfield mandolins, crafted in China?


This is well documented on this site and on the Northfield site. You haven't heard or read that because the statement as you quote it is not true. The work is done as a combination between the two locations. It's not 100% either location. And for the record, there are enough mandolins that qualify as crap manufactured right here in the U.S.

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DHopkins, 

fatt-dad, 

Lord of the Badgers

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## Brad Weiss

I made it very clear in my original comments that I was not and am not disparaging Indonesian craftsmanship.  I am happy with the quality, sound, playability etc of this octave. I regret that I did not look on the Pono website before I made my comments - I was reporting on both the point of sale site, and the KR strings  site where the primary marketing for these instruments has been found.  I made a mistake, and I regret it. I also do not think the price for these instruments is inappropriate, but it does seem out of line a little with what labor is paid in Indonesia  - and I am not saying they have poor working conditions, it just is the case that wages in Indonesia are substantially lower than other East and S East Asian countries.  Bottom line: I was mistaken, and I like the octave. For many, that is enough.

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## Randolph

Brad,  Thank you. :Smile:    I am most curious about the neck profile and playability (not that I have contacted a case of MAS....yeah, right!).   How would you describe it?  My current GBOM has a 1 1/4" nut and a fairly deep profile, sort of a mandolin neck on steroids: sloping shoulders tapering to a rounded "V".   And, I wonder if the Pono is more similar to a guitar neck on slim-fast:  chubby cheeks curving into a very soft "C".  My GBOM is very comfortable and these old hands prefer the familiar.  Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

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## Br1ck

> This is well documented on this site and on the Northfield site. You haven't heard or read that because the statement as you quote it is not true. The work is done as a combination between the two locations. It's not 100% either location. And for the record, there are enough mandolins that qualify as crap manufactured right here in the U.S.


I was not attempting to disparage Northfield mandolins in any way. The ones I've played have been really good, but if I were to walk into any retailer uninformed wanting to buy a mandolin, no salesperson has ever volunteered source of origin. It's just not what retailers do. The consumer has to self educate, and if they don't like the fact something is in part or whole is made offshore, and choose not to trust their own senses, it's their loss. For the record, I have spent $7000 on a violin made in China. It simply blew away violins costing $11,000. And no, it wasn't for me, but my daughter. The most I have ever spent on an instrument for myself is $3400. Let's not even bring up the $12,000 cello. That was French.

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## Brad Weiss

> Brad,  Thank you.   I am most curious about the neck profile and playability (not that I have contacted a case of MAS....yeah, right!).   How would you describe it?  My current GBOM has a 1 1/4" nut and a fairly deep profile, sort of a mandolin neck on steroids: sloping shoulders tapering to a rounded "V".   And, I wonder if the Pono is more similar to a guitar neck on slim-fast:  chubby cheeks curving into a very soft "C".  My GBOM is very comfortable and these old hands prefer the familiar.  Thanks in advance for your thoughts.


A guitar neck, for sure. Or a tenor guitar neck.  It's quite comfortable. The neck is 1 3/8". The 23" scale is a bit of a stretch, but it's a good work out!

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Randolph

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## KR Strings

Hi All,

   Thought I would chime in here. First off Im glad everyone is enjoying these instruments, response has been very good from everyone that has gotten one so far, most seem inspired to try new tunings, string combinations and musical roles for the octaves in their bands or playing styles. I am encouraging everyone to join up with our facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/krstrings/ 

where I will be posting news on new prototypes, sharing videos of everyone that wants to share and hopefully facilitating a community of people interested in these instruments. Several people have chosen to tune these like tenor guitars, but with the double coursed mandolin family string set up, one fellow even uses nylon strings in combination with steel strings- something the guitarist from Vassen was doing a few years back. I have a friend here in Hawaii that is tuning it in a slack key guitar tuning and coming up with a very unique sound, I should be working with Andrew at the Ukulele Site to get more videos up soon for all to hear.

  I have one prototype now with the shorter scale on the larger tenor body, which gives a whole different sound to the instrument.  I am also working on designing a mandola model with a 16" scale length tuned CGDA and traditional mandolin size, and am very excited to have a full line available in time. I am also working with Pono to offer a solid chambered body electric version of these for those that need or want to plug in at higher volumes with a full band. 

  A quick word on the origin of these, all are made in Indonesia and final set up and adjustments on everything I sell by myself here in Hawaii. I worked for many years for Ko'olau Guitar and Ukulele Co (Pono's parent company) and can say from first hand experience John Kitakis has been on a tireless search to deliver the highest quality hand made imported instruments for the last 20 years. Personally I think the workmanship on these current instruments is unparalleled in the import market, and I worked hard with John to keep the prices at what I as a working musician would be able to afford. I use my website www.krstrings.com mainly to promote the instruments concept and my work as a builder/historian but will certainly add information about where these are made and I apologize if that detail wasn't clear enough. If any one from the MC community finds themselves on Oahu, please look me up Im always happy to share a tune or give some tips on where I like to eat, hike and catch local music. 

Aloha-Kilin Reece 

808-387-4583
krstrings@gmail.com

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Astro, 

Randolph

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## jswag

Thanks for "chiming in" Kilin! In the few emails we have exchanged in the past year you have been quite helpful! Much appreciated!
I haven't decided whether I want the Terz size or tenor size, so I'm waiting to hear more from owners what they think. I guess I need to go out and try both at Dennis's shop in Arizona, but I'm in Virginia, so don't know when that will happen!
Thanks Brad for any more info on your experiences with your Tenor size octave!
Jeff

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## trevor

"I have one prototype now with the shorter scale on the larger tenor body, which gives a whole different sound to the instrument."

This is a great idea. To me this is potentially the ideal arrangement.

Can't wait to see and hear the mandolas and mandolins.

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## jswag

Still waiting to hear from any more "new owners", their thoughts on these octaves!
Anyone A/B the tenor bodies compared to terz bodies, etc., .
Any video clips from any owners?
Hoping to hear/see some soon.
Jeff

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## red7flag

Trevor,
How would compare the instrument tone of each scale?
Thanks,
Tony

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## DHopkins

Got mine yesterday from TMS.  It sounds great.  The workmanship is excellent.  It's been years since I played anything larger than a mandolin so it's taking some getting use to.  I'm gonna have to put a strap button on it, though.

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## trevor

The longer scale (and bigger body) ones have more depth and resonance, the shorter scale more clarity. Also there are variations with different woods and finishes.

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## Ken_P

Any chance of doing a larger bodied version as mandocello?  I love the way the octaves sound but I want the low C!

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## KR Strings

Hi Ken, 

 I have been setting several of the 23" versions, the BN series, with a low C (.056" or .058") and they sound great! One cool thing about this setup is that if you capo at the 7th fret you end up with a short scale octave mando with all the pinky fingerings in easy reach.

 Let me know if you have any more questions, I have several of these Mahogany back and sides in stock, and offer the setup for low C at no additional cost. 

Best, -Kilin

808-387-4583

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## KR Strings

Thanks Trevor! My goal is eventually to have a full family of sizes available, and to get a mandolin orchestra or quartet to record some arrangements I have of 19th century Hawaiian mandolin music. 

But for now, back to the work bench! 

Best, -Kilin

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