# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Celluloid Binding Supplier

## Mike Blohm

I just tried to order some celluloid binding material from Stew-Mac and was told they do not handle it anymore. Anyone know of a supplier?

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## sunburst

That's news!
I just got some from Stewmac a couple of weeks ago.
Try Allied, and LMI.

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## Jim Hilburn

I think there's been some kind of mis-understanding. Stew-Mac is the only place I deal with for binding and I can't imagine why they would discontinue it.

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## Saltgrass

Other than the ivoroid they sell, LMI's binding is not celluloid.

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## Hans

Just called Stew Mac and they said they are not selling it anymore because of fire hazzard. So, OK, who sells celluloid binding?

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## Dale Ludewig

This is not good. I can't imagine someone won't step in to fill the need. On the other hand, isn't it true that there is no celluloid manufactured in this country because of the fire hazard?

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## sunburst

Where is Delmar Products? Last I heard they were the _only_ manufacturer of ivoroid.

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## artdeco

Delmar Products, Inc.
400 Christian Lane
P.O. Box 504
Kensington, CT 06037-9998
(860) 828-6501
(860) 828-4701 FAX

If this stuff is being phased out I guess I'm fortunate to be using acrylics instead.

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## Jim Garber

Pardon my ignorance, but is there a reason to use celluloid as opposed to other plastics? I am not sure what plastics these are but International Luthiers Supply carries what they call "banding." Is that the same or no?

Jim

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## Jim Hilburn

LMI sells vinyl binding. Duco or other acetone based glue won't work with it. The other great thing about celluloid is the way you can melt and "weld" it together, especially on an F style. I luckily ordered a good supply not too long ago, but I sure hope there's another source.
 I called Stew-Mac to see if they had any remaining stock, but I guess Hans beat me to it.

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## amowry

I put in a big order for binding from Stew-Mac last week, so I guess I got some of the last stuff. However, I just called Delmar and it sounds as though they may set up distribution themselves at some point in the near future, because Stew-Mac was the only major reseller. They told me to call back in a few weeks to get an update.

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## Dale Ludewig

Jim- I called them also this afternoon. No go. The guy I talked to said the owner just had made the decision to not handle it anymore because of the flammability issue. Maybe Hans can be our supplier?

I checked my supply of the tortoise imitation. I've got enough to do one EL model. As long as LMI continues to handle the Iv-B-Iv, that part won't be a problem. But the tortoise.........

I'll bet this is on every luthier forum on the net by now.

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## Hans

[QUOTE]"Maybe Hans can be our supplier".

Ha, Ha, good one Dale! Glad to see that LMI has ivoroid strips, BWB and BW strips... planted a bee in their bonnets about tortoise.

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## Dale Ludewig

Hans- I was just having fun with you. If we come up to visit our friends in Hutchinson, about an hour west of you, this summer, I'll have to bop in and see your shop, if you'd let me &lt;g&gt;. 

So now the question in my mind is this: Does Stew-Mac realize how much collateral damage this might do to their business? Ya know- you're going to order binding 'cause you need some, plus you need some other stuff. Well, what the heck, why not order the other stuff from the supplier that can give you the binding you need? The loss to StewMac could be far greater than the loss of the binding sale. 

I can't judge their business decisions. Maybe it's insurance related. I don't know, but I hope someone else fills in. Maybe we'll be ordering from off-shore. Which, we probably have been, in essence, doing already. I have to find out more about Delmar.

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## Chris Baird

Stewmac has got a lot of incidental business from my binding needs. I can't see buying anything from them now.

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## tortispik

I looked in the latest LMI catalog #32 and inside the front cover under new arrivals it has tortoise binding listed,not specifying plastic or celluloid.
  Rob

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## Hans

And Dale, I was just sportin' with you! You sure would be welcome to stop by. Let me know when you're coming up. 
Rob, I asked the guy at LMI about #tortoise and he didn't seem to know about it, I hope they do have it. 
Too much anxiety today, pass the Maalox!

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## Jim Hilburn

I wouldn't get too high on LMI yet. I bought some plain white from them and it was worthless, at least for the way I'm used to using binding. Like I said, it was vinyl and you have to get some other glue besides Duco to work with it and your going to have to cut some very precise miters since you can't count on the melt together method.

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## sunburst

> Does Stew-Mac realize how much collateral damage this might do to their business? Ya know- you're going to order binding 'cause you need some, plus you need some other stuff. Well, what the heck, why not order the other stuff from the supplier that can give you the binding you need?


Stewmac is not my favorite supplier, even though Jay is a friend of mine. Kind of pricy, ya know.
Lots of times I need something that Stewmac has, and because they charge so much for shipping, I order some other stuff too 'cause It doesn't add to the shipping.

Anyway, it's one more reason to buy from other suppliers when I can.

It takes a pretty big order, but you can get sheets of binding material from Delmar and cut your own binding strips. That's what we did where I used to work. Perhaps we could amass an order, between us, big enough to make them take notice.

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## Jim Hilburn

This is like some kind of nightmare because getting binding from S-M was like going to the store and getting milk. (only more expensive).

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## Michael Lewis

Saga has some celluloid bindings, as does Martin Guitar Co. I know Martin has tortoise and ivoroid, but not the laminated stuff, so you will have to laminate your own. 

Charlie Derrington, what are you folks using at Gibson? Have you seen any supply problems? 

The world turns and the tide goes in and out, in and out, in and out. . . .

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## Hans

I talked to Martin yesterday and they said that their ivoroid and tortoise binding was Bolteron or whatever its called. Jim are you saying that the plain white from LMI won't melt with Weldon #16 or Duco? I just ordered a bunch of BW and BWB!

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## imnotanaga

Stew Mac discontinued shipping the binding by air and to Canada several months ago. Two questions come to mind: What is Stew Mac substituting in their mando kits? and Is there a Canadian supplier of this material?
Rob

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## Desert Rose

I think some are looking at a very small picture here specifically your personal needs.

The industry as a whole is and has been changing away from cellulose nitrate bindings fore some time for many reasons.

There is really no reason to insist on it just adapt, the bolteron and other new plastics have some good points about them number one they wont degrade and explode like the cellulose.

Stew mac supplys a WHOLE LOT more than individual builders and the stocking of the cel bindings was getting to be more of a hassle than it was worth Im guessing

That being said, First Quality and Custom may be sources to check out I happen to know they may have some in house  

Scott

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## Yonkle

You can get celluloid from Roger Siminoff. But I think he only stocks the "Grained" yellowish celluloid binding. I like the ivory color because the shellac turns it yellow anyway. The grained kind looks kind of cheap too. 
 HERE...&gt; HERE

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## sunburst

> There is really no reason to insist on it just adapt,


For restoration work, there is no substitute.

The same could be said for ebony, spruce, maple, etc.

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## Hans

I think the Siminoff stuff is "side bound" as it it .065", whereas the "top bound" stuff would be more like .090" - .110" or something like that.

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## Jim Hilburn

Hans, I have one strip of blk/whi from LMI, so I just tried bonding it to itself with very thin Duco and got the same result. It doesn't even touch it and it falls apart.

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## Hans

Aww H---! Guess there will be a return to LMI! 
Thanks Jim.

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## Jim Rowland

I'm thrilled to see that my efforts to save the world from fiery destruction are taking hold. I and other concerned citizens(activism is my life)are encouraging SM and other suppliers to desist in offering dangerous and deleterious products to the naive and,well..ignorant,public, where they will,no doubt contribute to overweight,toenail fungus,and post- traumatic ####### syndrome. I speak specificaly of WOOD,which is notoriously flammable and a dust hazard.Also GLUE which contributes not only to self immolation,but teenage delinquency. And,by the way,I'm not sure some of their tools are doing the fricking Snail Darters any good either. 
For what it's worth,I've flash burnt a ton of that #@ZZ!?%
.090 ivoroid without apparent damage except for an annoying whistliing noise when I pee. 
Jim

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## Darryl Wolfe

This is not good. SM was the only place with the solid white and the thin B/W celluloid for 30's pickguards.

I've read all of these posts and get the impression that aside from ivoroid, nobody has found any W/B or white anywhere? I've had the same bad experience with LMI's white and W/B

dgw

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## Mario Proulx

The sky is not falling. There is life after Stew-Mac. I can't understand their position, but hey, it's their choice, not ours. About the only thing left for me to buy there are my Waverly tuners for guitars, I guess... 

Anyhow, GW Musical in Toronto has both ivoroid and TS bindings. In fact, his TS bindings are a bit lighter in color and look better(to my eyes) than the stuff SM carried.

http://www.thindesign.com/gwmusical/

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## Darryl Wolfe

I believe that there is a "licenced shipper of flammable products" law or code that is very expensive to attain. #I have to travel and hand carry my tortoise plastic from my supplier because he/they will not break the law by shipping it to me.

I think you will notice that Stew-Mac boxes (with your binding in it)are not marked "Flammable" even though they state in their catalog "cannot ship by Air/out of country"

This is probably the jist of the whole deal.

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## artdeco

I have been making bindings by laminating acrylic sheets cut int strips. Much more color choices, but then again, I don't make traditional F5's. The acrylic cements act very similar to acetone with celluloid. You can do the melting thing on the miters and joints between point protectors and binding. The biggist drawback is having to warm and shape the binding before you laminate the strips - the laminated interfaces don't take well to a lot of heat and bending, particularly on sharp curves.

The Duco-type cements will work with the acrylic, but I prefer epoxy tinted to the color of the inside strip of binding.

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## Mandobar

darryl,

yes there is a law about flammable shipments, but pitt/ohio (a trucking firm) will deliver. (i worked for a while for a biotech firm- talk about flammable) we used them
when there was something flammable we needed shipped. just a suggestion.

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## John Bertotti

artdeco, how do you tint the epoxy and what type are yopu using? Thanks John

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## artdeco

Not sure about the brand of epoxy until I get home to take a look at it, but it's just the stuff you find hanging on the walls at Ace, etc. You can get it in clear and black and one formulated just for plastic in cream. For other colors I just use analine dyes in alcohol. It thins the epoxy a bit, but does not seem to affect the cure. You have to be a bit more careful with the stuff you dye because it will stain the wood. If I get really paranoid about that I just seal the parts I want to protect with shellac and sand it off during the finishing process. Once the epoxy sets up the dye will not bleed out of it. I use the black stuff to do inlay on Ebony - usually add a little dye to it to make sure it's black enough.

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## french guy

Here is my First attempt of binding 
but , now I see my mando with different eyes
I have to play only when the sun goes down and stop playing when the sun comes up !! LOL

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## Desert Rose

John as a restoration specialist I agree totally that the old bindings have a place there for sure but so far we were talking about new building I think

As I mentioned in another thread if anyone wants tortise shell in red or brown, ivoriod in grained or yellowed wavy grain or whitepearloid all in cellulose nirate I can and do supply large quantities to people

Scott

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## sunburst

Thanks, Scott. That's good to know.

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## Bandersnatch Reverb

So whats next... no celluloid picks either? 

I'm wondering if StewMacs policy is driven by a solution for a problem that does not exist - sort of like the "no cellphone" rule at gas stations, where no problem has EVER been reported anywhere on the planet.

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## sunburst

Stewmac is (was) only one supplier of celluliod binding material.
I don't think pick manufasturers get their material from Stewmac.
I suspect Stewmac's policy is a result of the very real problem of liability and the associated risks and expences.

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## Darryl Wolfe

With all of this said..do we have a source for white/black celluloid for inner lines and/or white standard bindings

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## violin2233

Hey all, International Violin sells Ivoriod binding along with other real wood and fiber bindings. The ivoroid is somewhat grained though

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## testore

Hey Ken, Gary Vessel here. Can you send me a sample of your binding. Would love to buy it from you guys. Thanks

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## John Bertotti

I didn't see that this has been posted yet but for what it's worth this is a link to tortis that Jgarber posted in another thread. It caught my eye because it looks so darn good and they will do custom colors and maybe even binding. Might be a bit pricey though. John 
Tor tis

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## Hans

Darryl, I've been hunting for a couple of days here...no luck yet. The LMI stuff definately does not work. I also need the BWB and BW not to mention B and W, all in 1/4". Stew-Mac is apparently looking to sell ABS as a substitute. Anyone know if ABS melts with Duco or Weldon? I have one possible last hope...might know something in a few days.

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## sunburst

> Anyone know if ABS melts with Duco or Weldon?


Neither.

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## Hans

Double dirty dog rats!

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## bobz

They state on thier site that the ABS plastic binding can be laminated with acetone and glued to the instrument with thier Weldon glue. If that`s true I think I`ll use it for binding in future. I don`t know if any body has thought of it, but I might try some of the plastic casing that`s used for encasing elctric cables. It`s white, comes in 10 foot lengths, and would yeild a lot of strips for very little money. I can also get some plastic in black as a corner angle cover strip. Worth a try.

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## sunburst

I thought it was ABS that I soaked in acetone for several days, perhaps it was vinyl.
Anyway, it didn't melt, just got kind of rubbery.

Weldon does seem to glue it better then Duco, but doesn't seem to melt it.

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## Keith Newell

I know for sure that acetone will melt/laminate ABS plastic. Weldon #2354 works great in laminating ABS. It is a pretty hot solvant (meaning it evaporates fairly fast) so it doesn't stick around to much to soften too deeply the ABS plastic in thin sections so I would imagine using Weldon #2354 to laminate and Weldon #16 to glue your binding to the instrument would work good. 
 I take Weldon #16 and cut it 50% with acetone and paint the freshly routed binding channel. The next day I glue my binding on with Weldon #16.
 Just a thought.
Keith Newell
http://www.newellmandolins.com

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## Hans

Ok, I ordered some ABS to try out. Full report next week.

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## Desert Rose

At the price Tortis gets for pickguards you might as well put 24K gold on for binding, the cost of 3 by 5 foot sheet to make binding would break the bank

For reference a standard sheet of material used to slice binding in .060 of either tortise or ivoriod costs about $110 wholesale they get $45 for a pickguard blank

Scott

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## Yonkle

I don't get it. You have to get binding pretty hot for it to flame on! Seems like the Gas/Diesel in the shiping trucks would be 1000 times more of a threat! Someone tell me how a piece of binding in a box could catch on fire, without a fire first being outside the box. JD

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## Desert Rose

Yonkle

Cellulose nitrate materials if over a certian weight or volume are so dangerous that the shippers must be licenced for explosives. Years ago when studying at McCabes they used to have a small wooden barrel of picks and people were welcome to help themselves. That barrel of picks about 16 inches high fit the requirement.

This material gasses off the solvents its made with for years. If you have a quantity of it the gassed off solvents if in a confined space like a shipping box are as good as a bomb and just as unstable

Scott

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## Rave On

I bought a sheet of high quality tortise from Henry Stocek
about a year ago. Henry did the home work on authentic looking tortise nitrocellulose and had it made in Italy...There was an atricle about Henry in the Guild of American luthiers publication several years ago...I wonder if Henry is still in the luthier supply business...

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## Darryl Wolfe

Thanks HANS, keep us posted

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## Keith Newell

I can see it now, a whole bunch of new instrument jokes.

 How do you know when you played a really hot lick on stage?

 When there are 2 pieces of your mandolin on the floor, a top and the back with the sides with neck attached in your hand...all with charred edges

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## Michael Lewis

Well, it can be funny when it doesn't hapen to you.  

I have repaired instruments that had some of their binding spontaneously combust. It makes a mess and can damage surrounding surfaces. This sort of occurence usually happens when left in a closed case for extended periods (years).

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## Darryl Wolfe

> For reference a standard sheet of material used to slice binding in .060 of either tortise or ivoriod costs about $110 wholesale they get $45 for a pickguard blank
> 
> Scott


For more reference, my sheets of plastic have cost anywhere from 175-275 over the years. This is 0.125 tortoise. It is usually price commensurate with the thickness from there. Take in mind my supplier bought an entire brick which I assume to be 12-18" thick and it was $6000

I special ordered a sheet of 0.80 ivoroid/ 0.25 black/ 0.25 white from Delmar 10 years ago and it was about $250

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## Darryl Wolfe

ps: #Rave-on mentions Italy....every sheet I have gotten has an Italian sticker on it with a company name and "Xelox" as the material. #I cant remember the name but it's one of those Marucella like words

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## Jim Hilburn

Has Stew-Mac also discontinued all of the pickguards for acoustic and electric guitars and blank sheets? That's a lot of product to drop from your catalog.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Dad just got a new LMI catalog today. He says that for the first time, they specify what the materials are. He says the black-white stuff says "Black and white is made of vinyl"

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## Hans

Darryl, I can attest to that. Just sent back 48 strips. Duco or Weldon won't touch it.

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## Saltgrass

LMI did also specify that their ivoroid stuff is celluloid.

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## dstretch

I think the Martin Guitar 1833 shop sells celluloid binding.

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## Dale Ludewig

Yes, but I don't think LMI sells IBI in .090, which StewMac did and I use for body binding- even the headstock. Plus I don't think LMI's tortoise is celluloid.

As to someone's previous post that we're interested in this issue for personal reasons- that person was right on the button.

I wonder how many of the luthiers here might have custom orders swinging in the wind 'til this shortage/ problem/ is resolved? Anybody want to say? I can't help but think that SM is watching, (I'd hope) or someone like LMI, who could step in and up their inventory. I would think it would increase their orders for other stuff than binding by a significant percentage. Just thinking and hoping.

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## Bill Snyder

International Luthier Supplies binding does not say anything about being celluloid, but it does say it glues with Duco.

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## Jim Hilburn

Yeah, but no ivoroid. I have a Vitali's catalog from about '73 with all those inlays and same bindings.

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## Jim Hilburn

Allparts has tort.,ivoroid and blk. and whi. Doesn't say if its celluloid or not. No pre-laminates either.

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## tope

Is the LMI ivoroid the same as what StewMac used to carry?
Gary

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## Chris Baird

Here is LMI's most recent catalog. They seem to have celluloid. Only thing I don't see is the .030" w/b. They also sell glue to glue thier other bindings.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Dad and I just bought a large quantity of the LMI Ivoroid and the Ivoroid/b/i...(just in case)

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## Jim Hilburn

If LMI's I/B/I is indeed celluloid, I guess you could superglue a bottom strip of the vinyl b/w to it so you had the side lines and could still have the melt together nature at your joints.

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## Mike Blohm

I was looking on the web and saw some refrences to fixing ABS plastic on motorcycles with shavings from the plastic disolved in MEK. They said it made good glue for ABS. ABS is close to PVC I think. PVC glue has MEK in it. Might be worth a try. Seem like there was a post a hundred years ago about using plastic model cement or toluene on plastic binding. Can't remember for sure.

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## Desert Rose

I would STRONGLY advise anybody thinking of working with MEK or MEBK to do a complete study before you get involved, hopefully what you learn will make you realize it aint worth it!

Nasty doesnt even come close to describing that stuff

Scott

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## Dale Ludewig

I ordered a bunch of the i/b/i (.090) from LMI this morning. The person I talked to said it was celluloid. Then the big question- was the tortoise celluloid? She said yes- she'd just been asked the question yesterday and had asked someone who knew. Let's hope they did. I ordered a bunch of that also. It's .060 and that's the only thickness they carry. She said the lengths were about 35".

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## Hans

I received a couple of blk and wht strips of ABS from Stew-Mac today. Glued a couple of short pieces together and the first indication is that the stuff seems to melt with Weldon #16. After 20 min. I pulled it apart with some difficulty, and the strips seemed to rip up rather than separate at the glue joint. I will glue some together to make blk/wht strips and try mitres tomorrow.

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## sunburst

I just got back from the Ace hardware store. Among other things, I was getting some Duco. Right next to the Duco was "Ace multipurpose cement". It says it's for PVC, CPVC, and ABS pipe. It's in a red tube, about the size of a Duco tube. I Haven't punctured the opening of the tube yet because I don't need to use it yet, but if it's colorless, it ought to hold PVC or ABS binding.
The list of ingredients looks nasty. I might wear my spray respirator if I use this stuff much.

PVC cement for pipes dissolves the surface and "melts" the pipe together. That's what we want isn't it?

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## John Bertotti

I just did some plumbing with black ABS the darn cement did melt the pieces together. Unfortunately it was black. What would the most basic active ingredient of that cement be. Perhaps it is a clear liquid. John

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## sunburst

tetrahydrofuran, methyl ethyl ketone, cyclohexanone, acetone, and polyvinylchloride

Pick you're poison!
I'd say either of the first two would probably work fine, and all are most likely colorless liquids except for the PVC, color is rare in organic chemistry. (I suspect the PVC is in there to thicken it up some.) 
I think MEK has already been mentioned as a solvent for ABS or vinyl. You don't want it in your lungs or on your skin!

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## Dale Ludewig

John,

You're certainly right about not wanting any of those solvent in your system if possible. I should be more careful, especially because I do use acetone regularly- it makes Leech wood putty workable when the can starts to dry out. I get into the MEK thing when doing the blue stuff. I get the colorfast MEK dye from LMI and with that stuff- I wear gloves and respirator.

Interesting though, this idea of using pvc cement on the ABS binding. Does anyone know if it bonds the binding as fast as it does PVC plumbing pipe? That's only a couple seconds. You'd have to be "ready" when you applied the stuff.

Hans, keep us posted.

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## John Bertotti

I used to have to mix and clean with mek and toulene and some other dangerous chemicals. I breathed it and and all but washed in it daily. I quit needless to say. Nasty Nasty stuff. Saw it dissolve the handle clean off a screwdriver that one of the ladies left in it overnight. John

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## tortispik

I've been using Weldbond glue for all my instruments bindings,wood,plastic,and celluloid and been very satisfied with it.Non toxic,dries clear and I get it from the local Ace hardware.For melting plastic I do use MEK with respirator,gloves and lotsa fresh air.
   Rob

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## tope

I had a talk with Delmar Products and they say that some one is going to be taking up a new distributorship for the products that StewMac has discontinued. In a week or so whom that will be will be decided.
Gary

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## Dale Ludewig

Yippity yippity do!

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## Jim Hilburn

I thought I'd re-float this boat to see what's new.
I have a good supply of ivoroid, but now everyone wants black or tortoise. What's the latest from Delmar?

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## Chris Baird

Bill James is the new supplier, email him for the details. 

Bill@inlayinc.com

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## Jim Hilburn

This is the best news I've heard in some time. Great to know someone who deals on such a personal level will be the supplier.

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## Hans

Well, OK, the beans are spilt! It's going to take a while, but eventually (perhaps by fall) all the popular celluloid bindings and laminates will be available from Bill. I don't think he needs a flood of emails at this point. He tells me that he is setting up a website with shopping cart for convenience to all. Be patient, all will become clear.

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## Chris Baird

I asked Bill before I posted and he wanted me to "spill the beans". He also seemed interested in having folks begin to contact him. Perhaps a post from the man himself...?

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## Bill James

Thanks for the concern Hans, it's much appreciated. Those of you who build can relate to how much time E-mails can consume. Anyway, I've prepared a form letter that should provide some answers and alleviate back-and-forth correspondence. If you send me an E-mail I'll forward it along and also add you to the contact list for future updates.

Bill James

bill@inlayinc.com #

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## Jim Hilburn

When you get a chance.
 How about tortoise pickguard sheets?

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## Dale Ludewig

Now Jim, let the guy get this all together! &lt;g&gt; After all, he does have tailpieces to worry about!
I'm just thankful that Mr. James is taking this on so we aren't gnashing our teeth worring about where that necessary piece of ivoroid, etc. is coming from.

Here, Here! Great News.

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## Herb H

Well, here it is five plus years later, and I probably can't even post to this thread.  But I wonder if the celluloid bindings are available nowadays.  Anybody know?  It's painfully sad to go over an old thread like this, for me, because I'm knowledgeable for a lifetime about solvents and various forms of cellulose nitrate, and I used to put on trainnig courses for folks on how to ship hazardous materials.  And by that I know that only a tiny fraction of what's written about celluloid is factually true.  Let's see if this can get posted.

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## John Arnold

> But I wonder if the celluloid bindings are available nowadays. Anybody know?


Yes.

http://www.axinc.net/

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## yota884huntn

i will second john arnold's opinion. 

best stuff out there. i have bought tortise celluloid from http://www.axinc.net/ and even cross grain ivoroid binding and all of it is genuine celluloid.

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## Herb H

Thanks, That's great.  I just placed an order.  Might order more later, after I learn how long a "strip" is.  Couldn't find that anywhere on line.  Maybe they have a print catalog with that information in it.

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## jim simpson

I ordered my last batch from Bryan England:

http://www.custominlay.com/SearchRes...x?CategoryID=2

I was replacing the binding on a guitar, the length was a little short so I couldn't do a continuous piece. I had to laminate two pieces for thicknest as well as join at the bottom.

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## Herb H

Thanks. I just sent a small order to Bryan England too.  A little disconcerting, I saw no mention of shipping charge.  They do reveal the length of a strip is 52 inches, shorter than the lengths of binding I last ordered from Stew-Mac.  Always something that's a little bit disconcerting.

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Phil-D

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## shawnee creek

I ordered some binding from Bryan England yesterday and asked about a hazmat charge and was told  that there is none.  I have been ordering pearl work for about a year.  They are very good and prompt.  Mike

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## Jim Hilburn

I don't like paying the Hazmat charge either, but they're running a risk shipping without it.
I did get binding form both Martin and Allparts with no extra charge but it's been a few years.

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## Herb H

I received my small order from Axiom yesterday.  The dimensions were acceptably uniform and close to the specification.  Strips are 54 and 1/2 inches for the black and the white, and I think 68 for the dark tortoise.  This is a fine material, hard and lustrous as I'd describe it.  For that reason it's clear why users don't want to just accept ABS as a substitute.

I think small quantities can legally be shipped as "not hazardous" by the small quantity exception, but one has to know how to do that, what hoops to jump through.  My guess is that the "hazmat surcharge" is mainly to cover the costs of required training (for "hazmat" employees) and for keeping up with the rules, which change much more often than they need to.

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## Dobe

> I did get binding form both Martin and Allparts with no extra charge but it's been a few years.


Hi Jim (and everyone else out there) , I find myself in need for the first time in a while. When I searched 'Martin binding supplies'  I stumbled across these guys:

http://www.pilgrimsprojects.biz/bind.html    Looks like I'll have to laminate myself.  I think what I'm looking for is WBW 060-020-020

Isn't that kinda the standard Martin uses ? It's for a Martin bass project I took on for a buddy. Tops already bound, I was all ready to glue up the back when I noticed all I had was Ivriod & the bass has white/b/w. (stop !) This stuff from Allparts looks close :

http://www.allparts.com/White-Black-...t-1436-035.htm

Where LMI says plastic, would that be vinyl ?  Closest I could find was :

Plastic Binding PWBWS binding, WBW, .075”(.045/.020/.010) x 1/4” x 49”, ABS
limited quantity available 

Any tips would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks !     

Dobro Dave

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## Dale Ludewig

Bill James.
AxInc.net
(tailpieces also)

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## John Arnold

Dave,
Since it is a Martin project, I would just buy it from Martin. Call their toll-free number and ask for the Guitarmaker's Connection. They have everything you need....much more than that listed on their website.
Martin white plastic binding is Boltaron (PVC), not ABS.

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## Frank Ford

Some clarification -

Delmar is a distributor, not a manufacturer of celluloid, and there have been no celluloid manufacturers in the US for a generation or longer.  Delmar did import the stuff from the only European  (Italy) manufacturer, which  I've been told is no longer active.  Now I suppose all the stuff comes from Asia.

StewMac has not sold celluloid for quite a while now.  It's not the flammability issue, but the HAZMAT shipping rules that have come into effect, requiring an additional fee for each shipment.  As far as I know, all celluloid is subject to that rule, but for some reason, I don't hear about it being applied to celluloid picks.  Axiom sells celluloid, as do a few others, including LMI.

Flammability is a big deal in manufacturing, but not in shipment or distribution.

Martin uses ABS plastic binding (Boltaron) as standard, but the grained vintage style stuff is ivoroid, (celluloid).

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## Dobe

Thanks guys, think I'll try Martin.

Keep on pickin'  (and gluein')!

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## Frank Ford

Whoops  - it was late last night when I posted that last bit - I had only read the first page and hadn't noticed the dates or the subsequent pages. . .

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## HoGo

OK, now that the topic is back... does anyone know who is the producer or genuine Celluloid nitrate?
I tried to obtain CN binding from US suppliers, but what I got is different plastic (doesn't react to acetone at all, perhaps acetate), And buying from axinc would be way too expensive (I'm in Europe). If the stuff is really produced in china I'd easier buy directly full sheets if possible.

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## Vernon Hughes

I just looked at axinc.net and see a 27.00 hazmat fee is added..

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## Bernie Daniel

I am bumping this 7-year old thread just to prove that I do use the search function.   Well more like that AND I am looking for some inflammation too.  

Realizing that all ivoroid binding seems to be made from imported celluloid and that shipping celluloid carries a mandatory $28 shipping fee (see earlier posts) -- my question is, has anyone developed an ivoroid-like-looking, plastic binding material?  

The best I can find seems to be "cream" colored plastic bindings sold by most of the main suppliers  The other options being black and white of course.  

Seems like there would be a market for real ivoroid-looking plastic binding?  Has anyone tackled this need?

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## thistle3585

I get my ivoroid binding from allparts without a hazmat charge along with my tortoise binding.

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Bernie Daniel

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## Justin E.

In a word, no. I talked to some plastic producers that deal with specialty plastic and have a history of producing celluloid. They didn't know of anything of the such or anything more stable with the same working properties.

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## Bernie Daniel

> In a word, no. I talked to some plastic producers that deal with specialty plastic and have a history of producing celluloid. They didn't know of anything of the such or anything more stable with the same working properties.


Did you mention to the individuals you talked to that white, "cream", and black colored plastic bindings are already made and sold by many luthiery suppliers? 

All I'm suggesting is for someone to produce a plastic binding that has a coloring more like that of the older style ivoroid bindings that were made of celluloid -- that is an "off-white" color.  

I suppose the cream-colored plastic binding currently available (really more of a light tan color) is supposed to take the place of the celluloid product but it is not a very close match in my opinion.

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## Justin E.

I don't remember now. I know I also mentioned custom lengths. Like I said, I don't remember everything about it. It's been a while.

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Bernie Daniel

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## thistle3585

Bernie, I was under the impression that StewMac would sell celluloid out of their shop but not ship it.  I don't know if that was while they cleared out their inventory after having discontinued it from their website or it was still ongoing.  Have you ever been over there?

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Bernie Daniel

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## Champlin

> I get my ivoroid binding from allparts without a hazmat charge along with my tortoise binding.


  I just looked and from what I can see Allparts only offers ivoroid (or what they call rippled cream) in 54" length and at 10 bucks per strip.  The same thing from Axiom is $5.88, and less if you buy 12 or more, and they have a variety of widths, lengths and options.  If you're buying more than a few strips at a time, then it's still a better deal from Axiom even with the hazmat charge.  

  I've gotten celluloid binding from LMI in the past and I recall the edges being rough cut, requiring cleanup before gluing to the instrument.  I like the stuff from Axiom because it comes smooth and ready to go.

   (no financial interest.. just a happy customer)

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Bernie Daniel

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## thistle3585

The wholesale prices are far cheaper than the posted retail. Less than Axiom. Regardless, get what works for you.  Allparts works for me.

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Bernie Daniel

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## Wes Brandt

> The wholesale prices are far cheaper than the posted retail. Less than Axiom. Regardless, get what works for you.  Allparts works for me.


I think the only celluloid Allparts sells is tortoise binding  celluloid seems much more acceptable than plastic to me as it is historically accurate and harder.  It's actually made from cellulose as is wood. I mostly prefer wood bindings though.

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Bernie Daniel

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## Justin E.

One downside of celluloid is the lack of lengths longer than 54" when you need about 60" for D size guitars.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Bernie, I was under the impression that StewMac would sell celluloid out of their shop but not ship it.  I don't know if that was while they cleared out their inventory after having discontinued it from their website or it was still ongoing.  Have you ever been over there?


No!   :Smile:   But good idea!  I really should do that sometime.  Maybe next spring when the neo-tropical migration is in full swing I'll drive down to visit Stew Mac and then spend some time in the Hocking Hills with my binocs and see if I can find spot some Cerulean Warblers!

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## Bernie Daniel

> One downside of celluloid is the lack of lengths longer than 54" when you need about 60" for D size guitars.


Yeah you gotta wonder how did that length become the standard. I think I need about 63 - 65" for the 17" Super Jumbo body I am working on.  I have an excess of white plastic binding and I am going to see if I can modify it chemically to look like ivoroid.

All of my arch top to mandocello conversions have left me with some strips of vintage fret board celluloid that I can uses as a go by.

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## Champlin

> One downside of celluloid is the lack of lengths longer than 54" when you need about 60" for D size guitars.


  61" is available from axiom.. perhaps others too.

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Bernie Daniel

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## Bernie Daniel

The binding from both Allparts and Axiom seems like good stuff.  

However, for whatever reason this old 1940 Vega body I am working on has very thick binding around the body -- approximately 0.09" X 0.234"  (3/32" X 5/16") probably little change of finding that?

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## Champlin

> However, for whatever reason this old 1940 Vega body I am working on has very thick binding around the body -- approximately 0.09" X 0.234"  (3/32" X 5/16") probably little change of finding that?


  Not to be a spokesperson for axiom.. but they do sell ivoroid .09" thick, it appears only in the 61" length for some reason.  
http://www.axinc.net/Grained_Ivoroid...Strip_p/ci.htm

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Bernie Daniel

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## Bernie Daniel

> Not to be a spokesperson for axiom.. but they do sell ivoroid .09" thick, it appears only in the 61" length for some reason.  
> http://www.axinc.net/Grained_Ivoroid...Strip_p/ci.htm


I decided just to go with white plastic binding and bought a strip 0.09"X0.025"X65" from StewMac.  I have discovered that I can rough up the surface and mist it with light brown shellac to get faux ivoroid look.  It is a back binding so it is not as obvious anyway.  Thanks for all the input!

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## Mando-Mauler

Can't get celluloid binding from the States. The airlines won't carry it due to it being "a potential fire hazard." However, celluloid does not self combust to my knowledge, it has to be heated or come into contact with a naked flame . For this situation to obtain in an aircraft would necessitate said aircraft to already be on fire. Therefore, the aircraft is pretty well buggered anyhow; celluloid or no celluloid. Got me knackered.

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## jim simpson

The sellers still selling celluloid add a pretty hefty surcharge for shipping it. (special packaging)

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## Dale Ludewig

NFI, but Bill James is probably the main supplier in the US.  He adds a surcharge but it's what he has to pay the shipper (UPS or whatever).  He's not profiting from it.  I don't know what hole that money sent to the shipper is going down.  I haven't heard, nor have I heard from Bill, of any shipment of celluloid igniting during shipment.  Probably the insurance companies are pocketing this money because they can.

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## sliebers

The surcharge goes to the shipper.  No special packaging, or handling.  It's simply a hazmat sticker applied to the box.  Another way to sneak in another fee for the carriers and/or government.  

Bill James has a great selection of celluloid binding.  He will even custom make pieces if you ask.

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## Jim Adwell

Oddly enough you can buy pearloid position dots from a certain well-known luthier supplier that are apparently celluloid (they look like celluloid and smell of camphor when heated) without paying a hazmat fee, but the pearloid binding strips from the same seller are labeled as celluloid and have the hazmat fee.

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## Jim Hilburn

I went back to the beginning of this thread where I was quite involved.
Since then I learned that the reason Stewmac quit selling it was because a large shipment ended up on an airplane somehow and apparently smelled up the cabin. They were hit with a hefty fine for not shipping properly. That's the story I heard anyway.

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## Bluetickhound

I've actually been getting really good quality stuff (especially the tortoise) off of EBay that ships from China. Cheap and ships very quickly...

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