# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Essential Mandolin Techniques.

## gfugal

Hello everyone, 

I'm new here and am starting to pick up the mandolin. I have a fairly robust background in music. I play the saxophone, as well as the piano and have sung in choirs. My experiance goes to the extent of playing a few semesters in my University's jazz band. Therefore, when I pick up a "how to play mandolin book" at the music store it seems like I have to riffle through pages upon pages of music fundamentals I already know. I know the importance of practiceing proper technique, especially from the onset, since that is what establishes in your muscle memory. I'm eager to play and have already started practicing, but I don't want to get too far along by the time I actually do finish reading a "how to" book. I was wondering if any of you could give me a rundown on the essenial techniques and forms I need to develop early on, or at least point me to a source that can do this for me with a minimal amount of "general music fundamentals".

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## B381

jazzmando.com

FFcP techniques is a great start

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## T.D.Nydn

Google to get the sheet music to Raffaele Calace's: 2 preludio op. 49,, get to learn it and play it entirely,by the time your finished,you will know every feasible mandolin technique there is....

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Mtl Seán, 

tkdboyd

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## Pepe

> Hello everyone, I'm new here and am starting to pick up the mandolin. I have a fairly robust background in music..saxophone..piano..sung in choirs..


Just curious, was your earlier music/instrumental education DIY or a more formal process?

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## MikeEdgerton

Get a copy of Ted's book:

https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Into-...ATed+Eschliman

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## gfugal

> Just curious, was your earlier music/instrumental education DIY or a more formal process?


I had formal piano lessons until Junior high then self-taught myself from there on out with that instrument (still not the best piano player). All throughout high school I had private lessons for the saxaphone, then didn't feel the need to continue those when I started collage. I was on the jazz band at my local university for a few semesters playing saxaphone (not lead chair or anything) but got quite a bit of instruction from the teachers as well as took an improversation class they offered. I aslo did some combo playing with the university for 3 semesters since I couldn't fit the Big-Band into my schedule anymore. I love saxaphone, but would love an instrament I could self accompany myself singing. I could do that with the piano but it is in no way portable. I could have done the guitar, or ukilalie, but my admiration of Chris Thile's music inspired me to try the mandolin.

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## gfugal

I should also add that I've already obtained the mandolin for Dummies book, so hopefully that, this site, as well as other reasources like mandolessons.com will hold me over for the time being.

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## derbex

Original and best  :Whistling:  https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...=1#post1621379 click on the black square to download it.

The Dummies book is good, as is mandolessons.

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## gfugal

> jazzmando.com
> 
> FFcP techniques is a great start


Thanks looking it over now

- - - Updated - - -




> Original and best  https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...=1#post1621379 click on the black square to download it.
> 
> The Dummies book is good, as is mandolessons.


Downloaded. It looks like a short succinct read too. Exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks!

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hgrimmett

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## gfugal

It's fascinating how transferable learning one thing can be on the mandolin, especially with FFcP. Like literally all the major scalls can be covered with 4 fingering positions? This makes the potential for improvinzing so much simpler, whereas on the saxaphone every scale is a different fingering.

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## derbex

> Thanks looking it over now
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Downloaded. It looks like a short succinct read too. Exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks!


If you do get on with Leone the exercises can be found in the French edition (they are in notation, I believe so you don't need to speak French) available here http://www.mandoisland.de/bilder/sch...l#.WuGzvdYh2_4

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## Pepe

> I had formal piano lessons until Junior high then self-taught myself from there on out with that instrument (still not the best piano player). All throughout high school I had private lessons for the saxaphone, then didn't feel the need to continue those when I started collage..


Sounds like you've got a thorough grounding from both sides of the fence and will have no trouble evaluating and using self-teaching resources. I recently heard an old interview w/Bill Monroe who, when asked about the mandolin vs the other bluegrass instrumentation, said there was far more music in the mandolin and fiddle than all the rest, or something to that effect. Hope you have a blast w/yours!

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## gfugal

I already have a couple questions. Leone mentions that the right hand's middle, ring, and pinky should be lifted up and out of the way vs I assume in a loose fist. However, I've also been seeing on here that you should be playing in a way that is the most efficient using the least amount of muscles that aren't necessary. I feel keeping those fingers up requires more effort on my part than having them naturally lay in a loose fist. Unless I anchor my pinky on the strike plate thing, then that feels more natural. 

Which brings up my second question of whether anchoring is acceptable. I understand not using an anchor when strumming chords and such but for picking melodic phrases it seems to help me increase accuracy and reduce fatigue. Whether I anchor with my pinky or the base of my palm just beneath the bridge it's about the same for me, depending if I'm in a loose fist or not. Loose fist I anchor with the base of the palm, three fingers up I want to anchor with my pinky.

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## DougC

> I already have a couple questions. Leone mentions that the right hand's middle, ring, and pinky should be lifted up and out of the way vs I assume in a loose fist. However, I've also been seeing on here that you should be playing in a way that is the most efficient using the least amount of muscles that aren't necessary. I feel keeping those fingers up requires more effort on my part than having them naturally lay in a loose fist. Unless I anchor my pinky on the strike plate thing, then that feels more natural. 
> 
> Which brings up my second question of whether anchoring is acceptable. I understand not using an anchor when strumming chords and such but for picking melodic phrases it seems to help me increase accuracy and reduce fatigue. Whether I anchor with my pinky or the base of my palm just beneath the bridge it's about the same for me, depending if I'm in a loose fist or not. Loose fist I anchor with the base of the palm, three fingers up I want to anchor with my pinky.

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## Stevo75



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## Pete Martin

You can watch my ergonomic videos here:

http://www.petimarpress.com/mandolin...%20videos.html

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## sportsnapper

I worry about how I hold the pick - but I'm beginning to just work with the way I feel good holding it!

An observation on the videos though - they are all filmed from the front. If you're looking at yourself holding the pick, then you're looking in the opposite direction, and see a different view. An outstanding video would be one that shows holing a pick from the mandolinist's point of view. (headcam?)

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## Kevin Stueve

> You can watch my ergonomic videos here:
> 
> http://www.petimarpress.com/mandolin...%20videos.html


highly recommend these.  I go back and rewatch and re adjust

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## Stevo75

> An observation on the videos though - they are all filmed from the front. If you're looking at yourself holding the pick, then you're looking in the opposite direction, and see a different view. An outstanding video would be one that shows holing a pick from the mandolinist's point of view. (headcam?)


Here you go!

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sportsnapper

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## Kevin Stueve

So I've watched Catrina's video and Chris's video each multiple times.  I feel like they are describing 2 different approaches between your index finger and your pick.  Catrina's is more of pick between pad of thumb and pad/side of index finger.  Chris's is more pick between pad of thumb and side of index finger at first knuckle, which Catrina seems to argue against.  Or am I misinterpreting Chris's

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## sportsnapper

That's great - just what I meant. All tutorial videos should be like this - because the same applies to the fingering too! I'm with Catrina too - perhaps it's the european way of doing things?

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## Stevo75

> So I've watched Catrina's video and Chris's video each multiple times.  I feel like they are describing 2 different approaches between your index finger and your pick.  Catrina's is more of pick between pad of thumb and pad/side of index finger.  Chris's is more pick between pad of thumb and side of index finger at first knuckle, which Catrina seems to argue against.  Or am I misinterpreting Chris's


You are correct, they are advocating for two different approaches that look very similar. Caterina is advocating for a pick hold that is closer to the pad of the finger or maybe the "corner" between the pad of the index finger and the side of the index finger. Chris is advocating for a pick hold that is more on the side of the first finger.

Neither is right or neither is wrong and they both _look_ very similar.  However, I have noticed that the side of the finger _feels_ very different than the pad or even the "corner". It makes a big difference in the way I play and how I orient my hand with respect to the mandolin.  Although, as Caterina points out, I can switch back and forth between the two without much of an issue and often do without realizing it.

I have noticed that classical mandolin players tend to hold the pick closer to the pad of the finger while bluegrass players hold closer to the side.  Although that's a generalization that doesn't apply across the board.

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DavidKOS, 

Scot Thayer

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## Kevin Stueve

> You are correct, they are advocating for two different approaches that look very similar. Caterina is advocating for a pick hold that is closer to the pad of the finger or maybe the "corner" between the pad of the index finger and the side of the index finger. Chris is advocating for a pick hold that is more on the side of the first finger.
> 
> Neither is right or neither is wrong and they both _look_ very similar.  However, I have noticed that the side of the finger _feels_ very different than the pad or even the "corner". It makes a big difference in the way I play and how I orient my hand with respect to the mandolin.  Although, as Caterina points out, I can switch back and forth between the two without much of an issue and often do without realizing it.
> 
> I have noticed that classical mandolin players tend to hold the pick closer to the pad of the finger while bluegrass players hold closer to the side.  Although that's a generalization that doesn't apply across the board.


thanks after 40 years of guitar and 3 years of mandolin have recently been re evaluating my pick hold.

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## Stevo75

I think as long as you're somewhere in the ballpark of what Chris, Caterina, and Mike Marshall are demonstrating for pick hold you're fine. Which one ends up being best for you (side of the finger, corner, or pad) depends on your personal preferences and your unique anatomy.

There are some really weird looking pick holds out there that seem to work for those folks (Drew Emmitt is one of them), but probably shouldn't be encouraged for someone new to the mandolin.

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## gfugal

So looks like all the videos are advocating for a loose fist contrary to what Leone suggests. No one pinky anchors, so I'll throw that out the window. I'm still not sure whether anchoring the base of your palm is acceptable. Mike sort of suggests it but prefaces "ever so lightly". Christina also looks like she might but just a little. I'm don't think Chris is, but he's also the only one standing.

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## gfugal

Leone mentions lengthening and shortening fingers and Christina covers this whereas the other two don't. However, Christina does not advocate increasing grip tension to increase or decrease volume like Leone does. Probably because it's so old, I should probably take Leone's work more as a guideline it seems and less like the indisputable best way. Most of Leone's writing talks about when to down stroke vs Upstroke. Is it really that important like he makes it out to be? Chris seems to upstroke almost every time after he downstrokes. But i'm not seeing all of his playing, nor able to distinguish too well since he goes so fast.

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DavidKOS

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## Stevo75

> Leone mentions lengthening and shortening fingers and Christina covers this whereas the other two don't. However, Christina does not advocate increasing grip tension to increase or decrease volume like Leone does. Probably because it's so old, I should probably take Leone's work more as a guideline it seems and less like the indisputable best way. Most of Leone's writing talks about when to down stroke vs Upstroke. Is it really that important like he makes it out to be? Chris seems to upstroke almost every time after he downstrokes. But i'm not seeing all of his playing, nor able to distinguish too well since he goes so fast.


Alternate picking on the mandolin is very important and you want to make sure you are doing this correctly.  Think of your right hand as your metronome going up and down with the beat (1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &). Regardless of how the music lays out with respect to rests or quarter notes or eighth notes, the down part of the beat (1 2 3 4) is always a down stroke and the up part ( the "&") is always an up stroke.

This is called alternate picking, but you can't take that literally because, depending on how long a note is held, you may follow a down stroke with another down stroke or you may have several up strokes in a row. Regardless, they are always following the 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & pattern.  This will make sense to you if you keep your right hand moving up and down when a note is held longer, or there is a rest, etc.  It helps to exaggerate this motion at first to be able to see how it works and to make sure you are playing a string of notes correctly with respect to which ones are down strokes and which are up strokes.

There are exceptions to this, like cross picking, and you'll see Caterina use some techniques that do not follow this rule, but it is the first thing you should learn (before learning the exceptions).  The picking patterns for jigs in 6/8 time is another exception.

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DavidKOS

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## Stevo75

> So looks like all the videos are advocating for a loose fist contrary to what Leone suggests. No one pinky anchors, so I'll throw that out the window. I'm still not sure whether anchoring the base of your palm is acceptable. Mike sort of suggests it but prefaces "ever so lightly". Christina also looks like she might but just a little. I'm don't think Chris is, but he's also the only one standing.


I would say that most people touch the mandolin somewhere with their right hand. "Anchor" is a little too rigid.  But "brushing" a pinky or somewhere on the base of your hand near the bridge is very common.  You need to have some frame of reference for your right hand, especially at first.  Very few people, if anyone, has a completely free floating hand 100% of the time.  I have seen videos where both Chris and Mike say that they touch behind the bridge with the "meat" of the base of the hand slightly or lightly brushing.  And I have seen both of them brush their pinkies on the top of the mandolin at times.

The important thing is not to anchor, but allow your hand to move freely.  Don't worry about being 100% free floating at first.

FYI, there are some great players who anchor the pinky (see Adam Steffey), but that's not something you should try for when starting out.  It's best not to if you can help it.

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## gfugal

Here's an Idea of what I'm talking about when I say anchor. You're right "anchoring" is probably not the right word. I'm thinking of archery which I'm also interested in. In archery anchoring gives you a reference point which increases accuracy. I remeber seing this video on facebook and was wondering if the principle could apply to playing the mandolin too. I'm not sure if her "anchoring" is aiding her playing or if she is doing it in spite of it. Obviously she can do it well, but whether it should be emulated or not is what I'm wondering (like how you say Adam Steffey does well with his pinky support but shouldn't nesecarilly be copied).

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## derbex

> Leone mentions lengthening and shortening fingers and Christina covers this whereas the other two don't. However, Christina does not advocate increasing grip tension to increase or decrease volume like Leone does. Probably because it's so old, I should probably take Leone's work more as a guideline it seems and less like the indisputable best way. Most of Leone's writing talks about when to down stroke vs Upstroke. Is it really that important like he makes it out to be? Chris seems to upstroke almost every time after he downstrokes. But i'm not seeing all of his playing, nor able to distinguish too well since he goes so fast.


I should tell you that when Leone says quill he means just that -part of a feather, so maybe his way of holding is necessarily different, although shortening and lengthening the fingers and adjusting the looseness are advocated elsewhere too.

The real value with Leone to me is in the picking exercises ups and downs, across the strings, patterns &c., the classical books I have seen seem to initially concentrate on getting a really sound right hand technique and a good knowledge of scales in first position before venturing up the fret board.

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August Watters

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## Stevo75

> Here's an Idea of what I'm talking about when I say anchor. You're right "anchoring" is probably not the right word. I'm thinking of archery which I'm also interested in. In archery anchoring gives you a reference point which increases accuracy. I remeber seing this video on facebook and was wondering if the principle could apply to playing the mandolin too. I'm not sure if her "anchoring" is aiding her playing or if she is doing it in spite of it. Obviously she can do it well, but whether it should be emulated or not is what I'm wondering (like how you say Adam Steffey does well with his pinky support but shouldn't nesecarilly be copied).


I think it's good to have a reference point. So don't think you need to be 100% free floating all the time.  But avoid "planting" your pinky finger (for example) as that limits movement and often adds tension somewhere in the hand/arm.  If you're brushing your right hand somewhere, that's better.  

You will notice that she's pretty close to free floating when playing rhythm. That is something to shoot for.  Fast single note lines might require some form of touching with the right hand for accuracy.

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## Narayan Kersak

> Google to get the sheet music to Raffaele Calace's: 2 preludio op. 49,, get to learn it and play it entirely,by the time your finished,you will know every feasible mandolin technique there is....


Where can I get tab and a recording?

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## T.D.Nydn

> Where can I get tab and a recording?


Well,no tab,,part of the fun is figuring out the notation and positions, go on YouTube and you'll find a few examples,try to follow the sheet music to the playing so you know this piece intimately...

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## Mark Gunter

Just an aside - and my apologies in advance for posting off-topic.

Camera angle on tutorials was mentioned, and I thought I'd interject that the best I've seen in that regard has to be James Taylor's YouTube guitar lessons. He used a number of camera angles to show what he's doing from above, down the neck, straight ahead and from within the soundhole. His strange chord fingerings combined with the unequaled views of what he's doing should be of interest to any fingerstyle guitarist.

Back to the topic, Catherine (Caterina) does a great job of showing what she wants to teach as well. And I don't think it is at all unusual that teachers use and teach varying methods. It's the way of individualism.

See the four camera angles at 1:00 in for the first James Taylor lesson, for an example of what he's done for students.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EacI...ijHS71GYkSnvsV

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Simon DS

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## JeffD

There are bigger differences than that, between Caterina and Chris.

GROSS OVERSIMPLIFICATION WARNING:

Caterina's technique is in the camp of the German style of classical mandolin playing. Which has more than a few interesting differences with the "other"camp, the Italian style of classical mandolin playing, to which Chris is closer. Differences in angle of the pick and how tremolo is done and other things. It takes experts, (or at least folks with more experience and learning than I have) to sort out the details and their implications.

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DavidKOS, 

jesserules

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## Alex Orr

To get back to the OP's original question...  

Tremolo.  If you're serious about playing mandolin, start practicing tremolo on day one.  It's a simple idea, but executing it on the fly in a song is a surprisingly difficult task that can literally take years to get comfortable at, depending on how much time you have to practice.  When I first started playing I spent about a year just doing tremolo scales and tremolo double stops for about 10-15 minutes every day.  No other western string instrument demands a strong tremolo more than the mandolin.

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DavidKOS, 

Simon DS

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## Simon DS

Heres a list of techniques with exercises:
http://www.mandozine.com/techniques/

Two of my favourites (the first that I need to follow more often): 
Dont make mistakes/slow down ie. A good note is one step forward, a bad note is 10 steps back.
The second is something Ive recently learned:
(DuD,DuD), can be a blues rhythm where the u is silent, or (DdD, DdD), d silent/damped too and slight syncopation. each with emphasis on the first D. Now if its not too fast, you can then suddenly jump, again with the emphasis to (DUDUDU, DUDUDU) as a tremolo, sliding to double stops, to great effect. Enjoy!  :Smile:

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## DavidKOS

> FYI, there are some great players who anchor the pinky (see Adam Steffey), but that's not something you should try for when starting out.  It's best not to if you can help it.


Just because some great player uses less-than-ideal technique does not mean it is a good idea to play that way on purpose.

As I have said, many people play well* in spite* of their technique not _because of it_.

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Phil Goodson

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## DavidKOS

> There are bigger differences than that, between Caterina and Chris.
> 
> GROSS OVERSIMPLIFICATION WARNING:
> 
> Caterina's technique is in the camp of the German style of classical mandolin playing. Which has more than a few interesting differences with the "other"camp, the Italian style of classical mandolin playing, to which Chris is closer. Differences in angle of the pick and how tremolo is done and other things. It takes experts, (or at least folks with more experience and learning than I have) to sort out the details and their implications.


Compared to a lot of mandolin players, they play more alike than not - to a point.

As a non-German player more of the Neapolitan tradition, the differences I hear are:

German style uses less tremolo

German tone color is darker and more even due to strings and pick type, not just angle  - Neapolitan school uses roundwound strings and a less rubbery pick.

German instruments are built a bit different for a darker tone

and other things someone more expert in the German school could identify.

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## August Watters

> The real value with Leone to me is in the picking exercises ups and downs, across the strings, patterns &c.


Yes -- the instruments of Leone's day are like nothing any of us have, unless you've had a historical repro made -- and so the value of Leone's technical instruction always must be reconsidered. Also note that Leone doesn't always agree with the other 18th-century tutors; Paul Sparks has done a comparison in his book "The Classical Mandolin." With the level of detail folks are discussing in this thread, that book should be helpful.

Agree, there's huge value in Leone's ornate picking patterns, much of which did not survive to the next generation of instruction books. Working through his patterns are a different direction, which I find inspirational for composing new mandolin music.

Seems as if this thread is comparing pick grip and RH technique across traditions -- the grip with pick on side of index finger (rather than on the pad) is clearly illustrated in the influential Bickford method, which is nearly 100 years old, so it's not only the bluegrass-oriented players who use this.

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DavidKOS, 

derbex, 

jesserules, 

Kevin Stueve

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## derbex

> Yes -- the instruments of Leone's day are like nothing any of us have, unless you've had a historical repro made -- and so the value of Leone's technical instruction always must be reconsidered. Also note that Leone doesn't always agree with the other 18th-century tutors; Paul Sparks has done a comparison in his book "The Classical Mandolin." With the level of detail folks are discussing in this thread, that book should be helpful.
> 
> Agree, there's huge value in Leone's ornate picking patterns, much of which did not survive to the next generation of instruction books. Working through his patterns are a different direction, which I find inspirational for composing new mandolin music.
> 
> Seems as if this thread is comparing pick grip and RH technique across traditions -- the grip with pick on side of index finger (rather than on the pad) is clearly illustrated in the influential Bickford method, which is nearly 100 years old, so it's not only the bluegrass-oriented players who use this.


August has written a good book on Classical technique Exploring Classical Mandolin that you might want to take a look at.

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DavidKOS

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## August Watters

Thanks, derbex -- to put in just another idea or two about the value of Leone:

The Leone method is also valuable because he gives us some triadic chord progressions for applying the picking patterns. It's the beginnings of a useful concept for understanding chord shapes all over the neck. And since he writes out the chords in such a way that it's easy to connect the top note of one to the top note of the next (forming a melody) -- Leone has essentially written a triadic chord-melody method, just as useful today as when it was written. Has nothing to do with style; it's easily applicable to all styles. Just great mandolin info!

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> August has written a good book on Classical technique Exploring Classical Mandolin that you might want to take a look at.


I also recommend that book highly.

Unfortunately, the mandolin players that really need to read it don't seem to care about classical mandolin.

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## Stevo75

> Just because some great player uses less-than-ideal technique does not mean it is a good idea to play that way on purpose.
> 
> As I have said, many people play well* in spite* of their technique not _because of it_.


That's what I was saying as well.  Pointing out that some players play that way, but the OP should not try to do it that way.

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DavidKOS

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## derbex

> Thanks, derbex -- to put in just another idea or two about the value of Leone:
> 
> The Leone method is also valuable because he gives us some triadic chord progressions for applying the picking patterns. It's the beginnings of a useful concept for understanding chord shapes all over the neck. And since he writes out the chords in such a way that it's easy to connect the top note of one to the top note of the next (forming a melody) -- Leone has essentially written a triadic chord-melody method, just as useful today as when it was written. Has nothing to do with style; it's easily applicable to all styles. Just great mandolin info!


Where's the banging head against a wall emoji -sometimes I need someone to point out what's staring me in the face.

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## gfugal

> To get back to the OP's original question...  
> 
> Tremolo.  If you're serious about playing mandolin, start practicing tremolo on day one.  It's a simple idea, but executing it on the fly in a song is a surprisingly difficult task that can literally take years to get comfortable at, depending on how much time you have to practice.  When I first started playing I spent about a year just doing tremolo scales and tremolo double stops for about 10-15 minutes every day.  No other western string instrument demands a strong tremolo more than the mandolin.


I actually have a question about Tremolo. I've been reading the Mandolin for Dummies book, and it basically says it's a fast alternating picking. My question is if the double strings play any role in the tremolo? For some reason I thought they did, but he didn't mention anything about them. If they don't then that means tremolo is just as feasable for guitar right? why is it so prevelent on the mandolin? Also what is the purpose of double strings then if it isn't for tremolo? Sorry for all the questions.

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## foldedpath

> I actually have a question about Tremolo. I've been reading the Mandolin for Dummies book, and it basically says it's a fast alternating picking. My question is if the double strings play any role in the tremolo? For some reason I thought they did, but he didn't mention anything about them.


The double string courses are part of it. You're getting a smoother, more continuous sound with tremolo on double course strings, because more strings are sounding in each stroke of the pick. 




> If they don't then that means tremolo is just as feasable for guitar right? why is it so prevelent on the mandolin?


On mandolin, the strings are all close enough together to sweep back and forth quickly with the pick. Guitar strings are much further apart, so it can't be as quick and smooth with just a flatpick covering that much ground. However, there is a similar technique called "rasgueado" used with Flamenco and Classical guitar, where you splay out your fingers to cover the strings, and do a rapid controlled finger strum similar to tremolo on mandolin.




> Also what is the purpose of double strings then if it isn't for tremolo? Sorry for all the questions.


The main reason is that more strings create more volume. It's difficult to get volume on a short-scale instrument with a small body. Take off half the strings, and a mandolin is a much quieter instrument. 

There are secondary reasons involving timbre -- the sound of two strings that are never completely in tune with each other. I think that becomes more of the rationale with longer-scale instruments like octave mandolins and bouzoukis, which would otherwise be loud enough with their longer scales and larger bodies.

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## Alex Orr

> I actually have a question about Tremolo. I've been reading the Mandolin for Dummies book, and it basically says it's a fast alternating picking. My question is if the double strings play any role in the tremolo? For some reason I thought they did, but he didn't mention anything about them. If they don't then that means tremolo is just as feasable for guitar right? why is it so prevelent on the mandolin? Also what is the purpose of double strings then if it isn't for tremolo? Sorry for all the questions.


I'm not so sure I'd day it's fast alternating picking...I mean...it is...but it's also it's own thing entirely.  

I'm not sure I understand the issue with the double strings.  Do you mean double stops, or just the courses on a mando?  Since all the courses are double strings then by definition they play a role on a mandolin.  

Tremolo is totally feasible for guitar.  Tremolo is at the heart of most any speed metal and surf guitar.  Dick Dale (the father of surf guitar) grew up playing mandolin and his unique (a the time) guitar solos reflect that in his heavy use of tremolo.  That said, IMO, tremolo on an acoustic guitar sounds kind've...awkward. 

Practically, the double strings are there to boost volume, but they also are strongly responsible for the mandolin's unique sound, so to some degree, they're there because if they weren't a mandolin wouldn't sound like a mandolin.

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## gfugal

> The main reason is that more strings create more volume. It's difficult to get volume on a short-scale instrument with a small body. Take off half the strings, and a mandolin is a much quieter instrument.


Sorry I'm just trying to understand the purpose behind it. What you guys said makes sense. Including the volume thing, but it got me wondering about the Ukulele. That seems to be a fairly loud instrament, at least to me, yet it is close to the same size as the mandolin with only one string per note. Is it still loud because of its shape and sound hole, or is it because of the plastic strings, or is it something else entirely. Maybe I'm wrong and it isn't loud at all. Maybe I just have limited exposure of hearing a mandolin played along with a ukulele to tell that the mandolin is significantly louder.  





> I'm not sure I understand the issue with the double strings. Do you mean double stops or just the courses on a mando? Since all the courses are double strings then by definition they play a role on a mandolin.


Before I started reading up about tremolo,  I thought you played each string in a course individually to get more individual strikes per stroke, but that doesn't seem to be the case. It seems to be that they are both played as one just as they are normally othertimes. The strum frequency is not coming from playing each string in a course seperately but from picking (in an alternateing way) much faster. 

My question was whether this is true or not, and if so whether there ever is an instance where you play just one string in a course seperately from the other. If not, I was wondering what purpose the double strings play.

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## foldedpath

> Sorry I'm just trying to understand the purpose behind it. What you guys said makes sense. Including the volume thing, but it got me wondering about the Ukulele. That seems to be a fairly loud instrament, at least to me, yet it is close to the same size as the mandolin with only one string per note. Is it still loud because of its shape and sound hole, or is it because of the plastic strings, or is it something else entirely.


Ukulele is an interesting comparison. I think if you heard someone play the same thing on ukulele and good archtop mandolin, you'd hear a significant volume difference. Maybe a bit less difference with a flat-top mandolin, but the double course strings on a mandolin still have a big volume advantage due to the tension driving the top. The metal strings on a mandolin also have more "presence" due to the higher frequency content compared to the soft sound of nylon strings. 

That said, there are some loud ukes out there, and not every mandolin is a "banjo killer," so we're just talking in general terms here.




> Before I started reading up about tremolo,  I thought you played each string in a course individually to get more individual strikes per stroke, but that doesn't seem to be the case. It seems to be that they are both played as one just as they are normally othertimes. The strum frequency is not coming from playing each string in a course seperately but from picking (in an alternateing way) much faster. 
> 
> My question was whether this is true or not, and if so whether there ever is an instance where you play just one string in a course seperately from the other. If not, I was wondering what purpose the double strings play.


There is only one technique I've heard of, where you do actually play each string in a double course separately. But it's not tremolo, it's a method of getting a partial chord by pinching down one string in a pair with your fingernail. Very difficult, not many people do this. It wouldn't normally be something you'd want to learn when first starting out with mandolin. Usually we treat each double course pair as a single note.

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> Ukulele is an interesting comparison. I think if you heard someone play the same thing on ukulele and good archtop mandolin, you'd hear a significant volume difference. Maybe a bit less difference with a flat-top mandolin, but the double course strings on a mandolin still have a big volume advantage due to the tension driving the top. The metal strings on a mandolin also have more "presence" due to the higher frequency content compared to the soft sound of nylon strings. 
> 
> That said, there are some loud ukes out there, and not every mandolin is a "banjo killer," so we're just talking in general terms here.
> 
> 
> 
> There is only one technique I've heard of, where you do actually play each string in a double course separately. But it's not tremolo, it's a method of getting a partial chord by pinching down one string in a pair with your fingernail. Very difficult, not many people do this. It wouldn't normally be something you'd want to learn when first starting out with mandolin. Usually we treat each double course pair as a single note.


The dreaded split-string technique.

Watters covers that in his book.

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## Explorer

> (Is there) an instance where you play just one string in a course seperately from the other. If not, I was wondering what purpose the double strings play.





> There is only one technique I've heard of, where you do actually play each string in a double course separately. But it's not tremolo, it's a method of getting a partial chord by pinching down one string in a pair with your fingernail. Very difficult, not many people do this. It wouldn't normally be something you'd want to learn when first starting out with mandolin. Usually we treat each double course pair as a single note.





> The dreaded split-string technique.
> 
> Watters covers that in his book.


I figured people always did this when the wanted a fuller chord voiced lower, or when two nearby melody notes need to ring, like in the intro to "Josie"....

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DavidKOS

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## August Watters

A few thoughts:

The split-string technique isn't nearly as hard as everyone thinks. It's mostly a matter of getting your fingernails the right length and shape. And forget wide fingerboards, you need narrow.

Ukulele is an interesting example -- small and loud, with single strings. Maybe it's the light construction, which allows low string tension to move a lot of air. There are also plenty of examples of single-course mandolins; if they are designed for it they can be loud, too. I suspect double courses evolved as an attempt to double the string energy, but that's a tradeoff since higher tension means you also need heavier construction.

Tremolo technique -- I think this can be confusing because we often don't define our terms clearly. "Tremolo" is often defined as fast alternate picking, but a lot of players would say it's a different technique entirely. For tremolo I usually rotate my pick away, so it's less perpendicular to the mandolin top (and pointed 45 degrees toward the ceiling). That way it's easy to contact two strings on the way down, and one string on the way up. It's a different mechanism, where instead of moving the pick with the wrist, you're allowing the wrist to move mostly by kinetic energy generated by the wrist/arm mechanism. Marilynn Mair has described this well in her method book. It's also in the historical Bickford and Pettine methods, and at least hinted at (by describing the raised wrist position) in the Calace method.

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DavidKOS, 

Explorer

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## foldedpath

> Ukulele is an interesting example -- small and loud, with single strings. Maybe it's the light construction, which allows low string tension to move a lot of air. There are also plenty of examples of single-course mandolins; if they are designed for it they can be loud, too. I suspect double courses evolved as an attempt to double the string energy, but that's a tradeoff since higher tension means you also need heavier construction.


A few years ago, I owned a mandola with single strings instead of double courses. It was a pre-TOH Breedlove custom order, "Radim Zenkl" model designed for fingerstyle playing. It's much easier to play fingerstyle if you're not getting your fingernails hung up in the double courses. To compensate for the lower attack of fingerstyle, it had a humbucker pickup at the end of the fingerboard. Otherwise it looked identical to Breedlove's standard double-course mandolin models. I assume the carving of the archtop and bracing was the same.

When it wasn't plugged in, that mandola didn't put out much volume when played with either fingers *or* a flatpick. I ended up selling it, because I decided I didn't like the humbucker tone (too much like playing a jazz guitar), and it didn't have enough useful acoustic output even if I wanted to mic it. 

Maybe single strings could drive a flat-top mandolin or mandola more efficiently. But at least with this one example of an archtop mandolin, single strings weren't enough to drive the soundboard acoustically.

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DavidKOS

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## mandocrucian

Split String, for me, have the most usefulness on the G and D pairs. play 3 note chords on two courses. You can also play some harmony lines with splits in 1st position and avoid the shifts up the neck to grab some of the doublestops.

I'll use some on the unwound strings to add color tones to a chord, for example  ... *00 - 00 - 02 - 33* gives you a nice *G add 9* voicing.
The* BEST* and fattest C major chord you can play is *05-55-33-00*

Splitting on the unwound strings will take its toll on your nails fairly fast, and for that reason, you may want to limit how much you do it.  You can coat the nails with acrylic nail polish to toughen them a little, but polishing them with *toothpaste* is probably better.  This is a prison trick to harden the nails into claws that won't break off as easily,... or so I've been told. !

NH

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Explorer

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## catmandu2

> On mandolin, the strings are all close enough together to sweep back and forth quickly with the pick. Guitar strings are much further apart, so it can't be as quick and smooth with just a flatpick covering that much ground. However, there is a similar technique called "rasgueado" used with Flamenco and Classical guitar, where you splay out your fingers to cover the strings, and do a rapid controlled finger strum similar to tremolo on mandolin.


Just a correction here:  rasqueados are not a tremolo device but rather variations of "strums" with various syncopations.  The flamenco and classical gtr tremolo involve rapid execution on single strings (typically), as for mndln tremolo, but is not rasqueado.  It's simply tremolo technique.

Swift string crossing with flatpick on wide string spacing (such as gtr) is routinely executed in oud technique.

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DavidKOS, 

foldedpath

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