# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

## mikeyes

Although mandolin has been around the Irish trad scene since at least the 1960s, there has been very little definitive information (compared to banjo) on styles, etc. of playing or comparison among the best players.  This forum is as close as it comes and while it has been great in promoting and encouraging musicians to use the mandolin we have yet been able to discuss or define what makes great music in this genre on the mandolin.

Part of the problem has been lack of good teachers but I think that this problem is coming to an end.  I just had Martin Howley as a teacher at the Irishfest summer school and am looking forward to Marla Fibish at the O'Flaherty Retreat.  These are two totally different players who are inspiring by their innovations and technique.  I know there are plenty of good players out there, but they are not as influential as Marla is and there seems to be a dearth of discussion and dissection of the various styles of these great players.

I just started a beginning banjo blog at http://itmbanjo.blogspot.com/ and wrote a small article about Martin's playing.  I included a youtube video of Martin playing The One That Was Lost.




I know there are other videos of Marla Fibish out there plus the ones that we have on this forum.  I'm hoping that we can start a conversation about what we think of mandolin as a different instrument (than a small guitar or banjo) and how we can evolve as an instrument of Irish music (or related music for that matter.)  I know we talk about it at times, but are there things you like or dislike about some of the great players we see?  Are there things that make you sit up and notice that you would like to incorporate in your own playing?  Are there things that must have been photoshopped because they seem impossible?

These are subjects discussed in other forums (think Chris Thile, Mike Marshall, etc.) that encourage players to experiment and learn.

Mike Keyes

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## Annette Siegel

I for one am quite fond of the Marla Fibish teaching & techniques, and therefore gravitate towards her; for the sound qualities/pulse that I'm after for my own Irish Mandolin playing.

Believe it's a personal preference thing....good players usually have something we can all learn from.

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## dmcginnis

I struggle between Roger Landes and Marla Fibish - I love listening to both.  Roger does not have as much recording done with the mandolin, I believe, but he has a unique style that differs from his bouzouki playing.  He treats the mandolin as its own instrument - not as a junior anything.  But, in a workshop with him, he did demonstrate fiddle rolls and other techniques that could be accomplished on the mandolin.  

I think the attitude I see in Roger is that he tries to remain true to the music and not let the instrument get in the way.

Cheers,
Dave

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## Bertram Henze

Not sure if I can say anything useful. 
I play OM, which is neither zouk nor mandolin and has to stand its own ground. My first issue (and, apparently, of mandolin players as well) has been being heard in a session, Irish music's wild habitat, and to survive there among predators like the pipes or the box. What we hear from Martin, Marla and others brings out the quiet intricate acoustic wickerwork the mandolin is good at, but it would get mercilessly drowned out in most sessions I attend and I have seen mandolin players turn up, give up and go. 

I was just not prepared to give up so easily, which is why I developed a combination of instrument customizing and heavy-handed playing technique, successful to the cause and still producing that Irish feeling (on good days) but very unlike the delicate style that would qualify as "mandolin".

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BinkWms, 

Loretta Callahan

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## M.Marmot

> Although mandolin has been around the Irish trad scene since at least the 1960s, there has been very little definitive information (compared to banjo) on styles, etc. of playing or comparison among the best players.  This forum is as close as it comes and while it has been great in promoting and encouraging musicians to use the mandolin we have yet been able to discuss or define what makes great music in this genre on the mandolin.
> 
> I'm hoping that we can start a conversation about what we think of mandolin as a different instrument (than a small guitar or banjo) and how we can evolve as an instrument of Irish music (or related music for that matter.)  I know we talk about it at times, but are there things you like or dislike about some of the great players we see?  Are there things that make you sit up and notice that you would like to incorporate in your own playing?  Are there things that must have been photoshopped because they seem impossible?
> 
> These are subjects discussed in other forums (think Chris Thile, Mike Marshall, etc.) that encourage players to experiment and learn.
> 
> Mike Keyes



Comparing the history of the banjo and the mandolin in irish music is always going to favour the former which would have been arguably present at least thirty or more years before mandolin's crept in under the folk boom. I would argue that even after that the mandolin has always been a secondary or sidelined instrument in ITM and that in itself explains the lack of teaching material.

I would also forward the idea that if the mandolin has gained a firmer grip in ITM it is due to the rehabilitating influence of Bluegrass/Old Time, and in no small part the information exchange of the internet. Through the increasing awareness of the capabilities of the mandolin this has begun to move it, as an instrument, out from under the shadow of the tenor banjo, or indeed has begun to stem it's threatened obsolescence from the that divil the capoed bouzouki. 

(I'll give one personal anecdote - when i began learning mandolin internet was still in it's dial-up nappys, and the only advice on playing i could find was from guitar players and banjo players all of whom recommended light plectrums, stating the apparent difficulty of sounding triplets with a thicker plectrum - the internet quickly disabused me of that dogma )

Personally speaking, and i have to try and be careful in how i word this, i do not see the mandolin as being a very suitable session instrument - it is often completely drowned out particularly when it finds itself in a large session. Tenor banjo's are suited to cutting through a noisy session/dance, a mandolin less so. In this sense the idea of equating ITM exclusively with the session plays against the mandolin's strengths and compromises it's possibilities. I am not sure if this can encourage bad technique but i am sure that many player's have compromised their playing in order to mount in volume in order to be heard in a large session. 

(There is a thread here on the use of resonator mandolins in Scottish music - for me, these instruments offer another potential evolution for the role of mandolin in sessions - but thats another topic)

Where i do think the mandolin shines is in smaller groupings, solo, duo or trio, quartets - it is here that it can find space to voice their range. In essence i would advocate a return to a more chamber-music format, or at least encourage the idea that ITM does not always equate large pub sessions or ceilidh dancing.

I have also started a thread on playing slow airs on mandolin as i think that the slow air might present the greatest challenge to mandolin playing in ITM. 

The mandolin can carry itself easily in those tunes where the roll of notes or pronounced rhythm propel the tune forward but it can begin to struggle with these slower pieces. Again i think this is where the mandolin has to come from beyond the banjo and look towards it's own legacy in other musical genres. 

For instance, i have heard and seen the use of sustained tremolo being frowned on in some circles as being old-hat, yet it is one of the distinct sounds on the mandolin. Also the use of chords - i remember one festival where, as a learner, a mere sprout, i played with a fellow who could rattle out tunes no trouble but did not know any chord shapes. Again this was probably due to the focus of tunes being played as single note runs, filled out by triplets, adapted banjo technique, but not one that works to the advantage of the full mandolin.

The main teaching point i would encourage would be to advocate seeing the mandolin not simply as a means to play ITM but rather looking at the mandolin as an instrument that has its own history range and possibility one that is only beginning to be explored through ITM. The more we can look to find it's strengths in other genres the better we can establish the mandolin as a voice in ITM.

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## M.Marmot

> Not sure if I can say anything useful. 
> I play OM, which is neither zouk nor mandolin and has to stand its own ground. My first issue (and, apparently, of mandolin players as well) has been being heard in a session, Irish music's wild habitat, and to survive there among predators like the pipes or the box. What we hear from Martin, Marla and others brings out the quiet intricate acoustic wickerwork the mandolin is good at, but it would get mercilessly drowned out in most sessions I attend and I have seen mandolin players turn up, give up and go. 
> 
> I was just not prepared to give up so easily, which is why I developed a combination of instrument customizing and heavy-handed playing technique, successful to the cause and still producing that Irish feeling (on good days) but very unlike the delicate style that would qualify as "mandolin".


Just like that old saying 'Its the heavy hand that beats the session'  :Laughing:

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## Bertram Henze

> The more we can look to find it's strengths in other genres the better we can establish the mandolin as a voice in ITM.


Indeed - mimicking other ITM instruments does not help. Ironically, I must admit that much of my own style was borrowed from other genres, especially Rock guitar  :Redface:  - how that is related to ITM, however, must be left to others more proficient with forensic research.

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## Beanzy

For me the biggest revalation has been using bowl-back mandolin on Irish traditional tunes with harp (part of our preparation for doing some classical pieces). In general I've been fairly underwhelmed with what I've heard of the use of the mandolin in ITM so far, however it's getting some decent use in Irish folk music and there are a few excellent players in other genres in Ireland. As for pub sessions I'd say I'd be tempted get a bluegrass F5 or National resonator out and go for the kick in the head approach forgetting about the subtleties or sweet tones. House sessions may give you more room for nuance and you'll find many players of all instruments hanker after an afternoon/early evening session where you get more space and can listen better and try out ideas more.

For me the real beauty of the traditional tunes comes when you can spend time with them away from a session, maybe with one or two other instruments where the players are trying to explore the sounds they can make with/against the other instruments. But then of course someone else will sit in, things will start to get lively, a sustaining pint may be needed and you'd be reaching for the resonator in no time.

The thing the mandolin really has it it can cut through if there's any acoustic space left by the fiddles and whistles, and here most session fiddlers are your allies as most but the very best hang about 1st or 2nd position. If you aim to play further up the fingerboard when the fiddles are playing in 1st or 2nd position you can add something up above there and still be heard. 

Even if the whistles are doing their shrill stuff nearby, you can use the bounce from the mandolin's inherent rythm be heard and really add life by putting a trip in the main step of the beat. There's also the tactic of cutting out suddenly at the end of a part or phrase. Then maybe come back in with just a flourish at the end of the next bit. Others will listen to that and often respond, if you're lucky catch an eye you can get them calling and you answering which adds a whole new dynamic to things. This really works if you're with a regular session crew who will tend to notice the changes more. But when the session night gets really underway you'll need the swap to a more punchy mandolin.

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## Randi Gormley

As a small indication of the place mandolin plays in ITM, I'll submit Catskill Irish Arts Week 2013, which was under new creative management because of this and that. The offerings were heavy on flute and fiddle, as you'd think. They had four guitar teachers. There initially was no bouzouki teacher and no mandolin class. When questioned, the organizers said they would be willing to add the classes if the questioner could get enough people to sign up for one. A bouzouki class was organized at the last minute. There never was a mandolin class. I have to admit that the organizers, when I initially asked about it, did not appear to recognize mandolin as an ITM instrument (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt in allowing that mandolin was an instrument at all). Probably one of the most frustrating parts for me (I was the lone mandolin in Pauline Conneely's banjo class) was that two of the banjo players in that class were mando/mandola players and in at least two of the open sessions, I was surrounded by mandolins (there were five or six of us both times). I have to admit to being so naive that I thought mandolin was one of those session instruments that just -- well -- WAS, if you get my drift. 

I'd love to be able to add subtle mandoliny bits in session, which I do when my group plays, but in an ordinary session, I can barely be heard when I start a piece during a lull and a fiddle has to hear me to take up the tune. I'm content at this point to be just a piece of the general noise, but I know some very fine players who ought to be heard and seen as equal partners.

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## Bertram Henze

> ...in an ordinary session, I can barely be heard when I start a piece during a lull and a fiddle has to hear me to take up the tune.


...and then they run away on you with their own idea of what the next tune is supposed to be. Been there.

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## xiledscot

I agree entirely with M.Marmot (when did you move from Limerick?) There is nothing subtle about a full blown session.
Subtlety has a definite place in a more refined arena. I prefer not to be "just a piece of the general noise" and therefore restrict,where I choose to play.
I agree with Randi that the fine players should be heard and seen.Unfortunately there are other players who should be seen but not heard.
I have discovered that three or four like minded individuals,can produce a more satisfying sound than a room full of noise!

As regards Mike's op.I am reluctant to put anyone up on a pedestal,but I would welcome an interchange of views and styles.

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## mikeyes

M. Marmot,

I have to agree with you that the mandolin has not been very prominent in Irish music, but I have recordings of mandolins playing trad music in the 1960s.  Barney McKenna supposedly went from mandolin to banjo for the reasons mentioned above (mainly volume in sessions) and Mick Moloney has an early record/CD of mandolin and banjo plus his mandolin playing with the Johnsons in the mid-60s.

That being said, mandolin is about to come into its own after all these years.  In this country I have to credit Marla Fibish for a lot of this and will really enjoy my time with her in October at the O'Flaherty retreat near Dallas.  Martin Howley told our class that he thought it was about time for the mandolin to come out of hiding and that it was one of his goals to develop a mandolin style that was not banjo based.  

BTW, Martin is getting a Collings F style mandolin in the next month.  Marla plays a 1921 (ish) A-2 model Gibson that is a killer.  It's the player, not the instrument.

Mike Keyes

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## M.Marmot

> M. Marmot,
> 
> I have to agree with you that the mandolin has not been very prominent in Irish music, but I have recordings of mandolins playing trad music in the 1960s.  Barney McKenna supposedly went from mandolin to banjo for the reasons mentioned above (mainly volume in sessions) and Mick Moloney has an early record/CD of mandolin and banjo plus his mandolin playing with the Johnsons in the mid-60s.
> 
> Mike Keyes


You'll certainly find mandolins in recordings from the sixties and the like, as i said they crept in the folk revolution, i don't know if they have much of history before that. Even with the mandolin in these early recordings i'd say the majority of them would have been based more for backing ballads/folk songs than anything else - not that there's anything wrong with that. 

I just read a quote from Mick Moloney on his time with the Johnsons  

"We were playing instruments that Comhaltas (Ceoltoiri Eireann) would have only been marginally connected to – maybe suspicious of – new instruments. The guitar was a new instrument. The tenor banjo, they didn’t know what to do with that. It was under the Miscellaneous Instruments at Fleadhs. The mandolin wasn’t even on the map. "

But in terms of bringing the mandolin out from the banjo's shadow have you any opinions on the subject yourself - especially seeing as you do play banjo is there anything that you would immediately recommend changing when playing mandolin?

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## M.Marmot

> I agree entirely with M.Marmot (when did you move from Limerick?) There is nothing subtle about a full blown session.
> 
> As regards Mike's op.I am reluctant to put anyone up on a pedestal,but I would welcome an interchange of views and styles.


I took to the road towards the end of March this year - just about settled in at this stage.

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xiledscot

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## xiledscot

But in terms of bringing the mandolin out from the banjo's shadow have you any opinions on the subject yourself - especially seeing as you do play banjo is there anything that you would immediately recommend changing when playing mandolin?[/QUOTE]

The short answer is no!    I think that all instruments have their place.
I play mandolin,tenor banjo and fiddle,all tuned gdae. This is because I am lazy,but also because it gives me flexibility.There are certain tunes that I think,sound better on a particular instrument.On your thread about slow airs,Eddie has a video of Roisin Dubh.I happen to like playing that on the tenor banjo.Perhaps it would not be everyone's choice.I play a set of tunes on tenor banjo The Banish Misfortune/Whinny Hills of Leitrim/Another jig will do.
I can also play those tunes on fiddle and mandolin,but it just doesn't sound right.Fanny Power/Shebeg and Shemore/The blackbird sound best to me on the fiddle.
I used to play in noisy places,like pubs,where the poor old mandolin would not stand a chance of being heard.
In a controlled environment e.g. playing on stage.The mandolin comes into it's own,and really compliments and is complimented by other instruments.
I think this is the way forward to promote mandolins in traditional music.Marla has been mentioned and I think her style and combination are a good example.
I would suggest quality rather than quantity.If you are sick and tired of trying to make yourself heard in a "Jam",leave immediately and start your own session with like minded people.

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DougC

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## DougC

Martin Howley will do a lot for Irish mandolin players. I think sharing the good examples here is a great way to raise awareness of the mandolin. Not all of us readers play only one instrument and we all talk to friends about stuff. 
Mike has a good idea here in that the goal is to improve the state of Irish mandolin playing. After reading some of the comments I wonder if sessiun playing as a topic gets in the way. Why not discuss what works, like a mandolin, mandola, banjo, guitar sessiun?

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M.Marmot

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## Eddie Sheehy

> M. Marmot,
> 
> I have to agree with you that the mandolin has not been very prominent in Irish music, but I have recordings of mandolins playing trad music in the 1960s.  Barney McKenna supposedly went from mandolin to banjo for the reasons mentioned above (mainly volume in sessions) and Mick Moloney has an early record/CD of mandolin and banjo plus his mandolin playing with the Johnsons in the mid-60s.
> 
> That being said, mandolin is about to come into its own after all these years.  In this country I have to credit Marla Fibish for a lot of this and will really enjoy my time with her in October at the O'Flaherty retreat near Dallas.  Martin Howley told our class that he thought it was about time for the mandolin to come out of hiding and that it was one of his goals to develop a mandolin style that was not banjo based.  
> 
> BTW, Martin is getting a Collings F style mandolin in the next month.  Marla plays a 1921 (ish) A-2 model Gibson that is a killer.  It's the player, not the instrument.
> 
> Mike Keyes



I thought Paul Brady was the mando player in the Johnstons...

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## Eddie Sheehy

I find slow airs difficult on a tenor banjo, but well suited to the mandolin - double string tremolo and sustain (Mandela).  Jigs, reels, horn pipes all are nicer on the TB, plus the volume helps.  Mandola, tenor guitar, Octave Mandolin, for vocals backing... I play the aforementioned on mandolin in a contra band - plugged in...  I'll play unplugged mandolin in a jam, but mostly for my own enjoyment, can't really be heard in a crowd, and a good crowd in a jam is a good craic... With Lot's of dropping out for a pint...

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## M.Marmot

> I thought Paul Brady was the mando player in the Johnstons...


Actually so did I, he is certainly capable of it - but in the interview i was reading Mr Moloney stated that Mr Brady played guitar while it was Moloney himself who played mandolin... at least for one song

http://www.ramblinghouse.org/2011/06...the-johnstons/

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## M.Marmot

> Martin Howley will do a lot for Irish mandolin players. I think sharing the good examples here is a great way to raise awareness of the mandolin. Not all of us readers play only one instrument and we all talk to friends about stuff. 
> Mike has a good idea here in that the goal is to improve the state of Irish mandolin playing. After reading some of the comments I wonder if sessiun playing as a topic gets in the way. Why not discuss what works, like a mandolin, mandola, banjo, guitar sessiun?


I can understand your concerns - usually the demand for a topic is to stick with one topic and run with it until silly season kicks in on the later pages. 

However, when i did originally write about the need to think away from sessions i was not sure I'd get agreement but it seems to be a common enough observation - and i think that is revelatory of some of the problems facing evolving mandolin playing in Irish music.

But, as we seem to have identified the challenge, it is probably a good time to try and state some preferences - mine i would say would be for duos/trios - one of my best mandolin memories is of two lads playing about a table in Crosses of Annagh, concertina and mandolin - that worked really well. They were later joined by a fiddle player and that worked grand too - fiddle and mandolin is great as Hayes and Cahill can testify. 

Also mandolin and flute - that can be magic too.

The key, for me is the amount of space that the instruments give each other to work with - the more space shared the better. 

Of course another question is what techniques to favour when playing solo?

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## danb

Loud mandolins do exist, though really the fun is being a part of the whole sound instead of trying to dominate it.

Being able to take a lead and be heard in a noisy or blustery jam is also a lot to do with confidence and carrying the tune well too.

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## danb

There are certainly tenor banjo players who use the mandolin as a "second brush", using tenor banjo technique and generally playing very staccato. I generally find that sounds ok, but seems to negelect the potential of the instrument.

We mandolin players have lots of fun opportunities for chords, double stops, and things like rolls that require a bit more sustain than a banjo has to execute. We also can get a legato sound using hammer-ons and pull-offs, and make use of that nice woody low-end too. We also have a bit more spectrum in dynamics than a typical tenor banjo technique, softer and louder shades make nice beat emphasis. Jigs sound especially nice with a good picking rhythm & dynamics.

Sometimes echoes of other instruments really suit the tune.. for example using a hammer-on technique in a polka that matches the way a fiddler would get two notes on a bow, or using some of the higher gracenotes in some of the cross-over Scottish tunes that you might hear on pipes.. those times they sound just right. Drones are really cool too.. or using alternate tunings fiddle or even bouzouki style (AEAE, GDGD, GDAD, (D)DAD, or even AEAC#) really works well.

There's no lack of depth or capability on the instrument, the real fun is that it's much less established technique-wise than fiddles, pipes, flutes, etc!

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## Bertram Henze

> After reading some of the comments I wonder if sessiun playing as a topic gets in the way.


Pleading guilty, your honor. I had my own doubts. The sessions and their ways are a part of ITM but not all of it, and there are traditional instruments that shy away from their acoustic bullying, e.g. the very symbol of Irish music: the harp (if you see a harp in a session, you're too slow at drinking your Guinness).
But I also kind of like the thundering session, that's what I am in for. I am pushing the instrument to my private goal, which is probably not somebody else's. Do not try that at home, as they say.

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## Bertram Henze

> We mandolin players have lots of fun opportunities for chords, double stops, and things like rolls that require a bit more sustain than a banjo has to execute. We also can get a legato sound using hammer-ons and pull-offs, and make use of that nice woody low-end too.


That's exactly why I left the banjo behind for good and got an OM. Changing the playing technique took much longer, though.  :Grin:

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## DougC

> But, as we seem to have identified the challenge, it is probably a good time to try and state some preferences - mine i would say would be for duos/trios - one of my best mandolin memories is of two lads playing about a table in Crosses of Annagh, concertina and mandolin - that worked really well. They were later joined by a fiddle player and that worked grand too - fiddle and mandolin is great as Hayes and Cahill can testify. 
> 
> Also mandolin and flute - that can be magic too.
> 
> The key, for me is the amount of space that the instruments give each other to work with - the more space shared the better.


I agree with all of these. Lets bring on the you tube videos! Let's talk about the good parts and start sharing this stuff!

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## mikeyes

I think a lot of the points brought up make a lot of sense.  The mandolin is not a little banjo, it is not a little guitar (to quote Andy Statman) and it is not a fiddle - although it shares more with the fiddle than the banjo.  

Mandolins have so much potential especially playing music in an expressive way as shown from that Modern Mandolin Quartet video.  There is no ITM rule that says mandolins have to be little banjos.  They can be raucous or sweet, loud or soft as needed, play chords, double stops, and all the other left hand and right hand techniques we have or they can find a new but in-the-tradition way to play Irish music the way every other instrument introduced has done taking advantage of the peculiar assets of the mandolin.  

Roger Landes has been working with adapting fiddle and pipe ornaments to the mandolin, Dan B has a number of CDs out there with his interpretations (and a wonderful knowledge of mandolins in general), and there are a lot of great videos with amazing ideas out there.  We need to make them more accessible and have this conversation.  (I'll see if I can find my Roger Landes tapes and ask Roger if I can publish them.)

I'm inclined toward the Martin Hayes school of Irish music but have found times when speed or bouzouki like backup has worked very well.  Most of the time this is either on stage or in small groups/sessions of fewer than six people all of whom are not trying to the invertebrates in the walls.  The band I play with has a harp and we found that the harp/mandolin combination added a whole new dimension that the rest of the band could use for a new sound.  I played a gig at the Milwaukee Irishfest with mandolin alone (my banjo imploded after one lag screw failed) and we got wonderful reviews about our sound.

WeBanjo3 is experimenting with two mandolins, fiddle and guitar in some tunes and they use mandolin with songs.  Using mandolin for song backup and interlude has been around for years in Irish music, of course.

Here is Brian McGillicuddy teaching two jigs:



Mike

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## Randi Gormley

I've actually played with a harp (and a hammered dulcimer) in session and those things can get pretty loud. Maybe the problem isn't necessarily the competition from the other instruments (although I'd rather NOT sit next to the pipes) as it is with the ambient noise of where the session itself is held. We do our session in the back room of the Gaelic American Club and it's just us, and my mandolin is hear-able even when I'm doing straight melody (and it's wild to play "solo" with, say, five whistles, which happened last week for a tune or two); however, when we move to the bar and with the echo of the room and the competition from the drinkers (at least they turn the sound off the TV's), I can barely hear myself or even the fiddler across the circle from me.

Playing out, of course, means we're miked, and they usually put a mike on my mandolin even if some of the other instruments go without. I've got a church ground-breaking gig with my-husband-the-guitar-player and a flute player next Sunday and that's a nice combination, too. There's no question smaller is better control and balance, but, as has been mentioned, I do enjoy being part of a raucous session even if I can't hear myself (or my screwups!).

This discussion has shaken me up from the haze of simple melody playing, though; I occasionally do a chord or two if I have the time and inclination during our tunes. I see I need to up the game!

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## M.Marmot

> The band I play with has a harp and we found that the harp/mandolin combination added a whole new dimension that the rest of the band could use for a new sound. 
> 
> Mike



I had the pleasure of playing with harp on a few occasions - i even had the unintentional compliment of the fiddler confusing the sound of the mandolin with the harp. I had started moving the plectrum away from the bridge, bringing it  further up toward the neck to get a rounder sound, the change in tone worked well complimenting the sound of the harp.

There was an Irish group 'Bumblebees' that often use the harp and mandolin in combination - actually there sound is pretty unusual and plays up the mandolin quite well.

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## M.Marmot

I was looking at some videos from Comahltas, because their competitions often end up (unintentionally?) promoting certain playing/dancing/singing styles above others -  and i found a fine video from this little fellow 

http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/com...sean_kelleher/

 

Heres another one with his friend on fiddle

http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/com...nd_sean_kelleh  er/

It would be interesting to see what the trend, if any, is for comhaltas mandolin winners - as this often has an impact on the development styles and of teaching practice

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## M.Marmot

Also, an interesting note was sparked by these videos:

One of the many current debates in ITM is on the merits of teaching of a generalized Irish style as opposed to one that is based in a specifically regional style.

I was wondering of the teachers mentioned just what they advocate? A general of specific/regional approach?

The mandolin is placed so that it would not have any real tradition, as such, but mandolin playing might still draw from regional fiddle styles.

On that note, does anyone here have preferred regional style or even one that they think would suit the mandolin better than others?

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## Bertram Henze

> I was looking at some videos from Comahltas, because their competitions often end up (unintentionally?) promoting certain playing/dancing/singing styles above others -  and i found a fine video from this little fellow 
> 
> http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/com...sean_kelleher/
> 
>  
> 
> Heres another one with his friend on fiddle
> 
> http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/com...nd_sean_kelleh  er/
> ...


The second link was defunct - here is the video.

The CCE performances always have a strange classroom feeling to them (for context: school is where you don't learn about life, IMHO), music under laboratory conditions, good for analysis - taking things apart but not for putting them together again.

I am afraid if there once were regional styles within Ireland, they have been washed over with more global regional styles - the same reels sound different if played in Dublin, Montreal, Boston, Düsseldorf or Tokyo. It's not even "Continental Ceilidh" (Christy Moore) any more, it's "Planet Diddle-ee-dee".

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## Shelagh Moore

This is an interesting discussion. I grew up playing traditional music (it was in the family) and have never had any formal musical education on the mandolin, tenor banjo or any other instrument, nor have I particularly tried to copy any particular style or player. I was told some 25 years ago by someone who ought to know about these things that I play in a pronounced "Clare" style even though I myself am from Co. Sligo and grew up in London. I can only suppose I have listened to such a variety of ITM and played in so many sessions that I have just "absorbed" influences from all around. These days the only thing I try to do is to interpret the melody in a tasteful and sympathetic way... and that can vary from day-to-day.

For what it's worth, my feeling is that it doesn't really matter what, if any, regional style you choose to follow on the mandolin... I think regional styles matter in their own context. When I'm teaching mandolin I tend to concentrate on technique and giving the  player the tools to be able to interpret a tune as they feel. Certainly I don't try to impose my or any other style... tunes evolve and, in my opinion, generally benefit from that process.

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## DougC

http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/com..._sean_kelleher

Cian O’Sullivan and Seán Kelleher! These kids have it! Comhaltas really has the best examples. This video is worth examining in detail. If we are going to advance the Irish mandolin playing in the world, then we'd better start here. 

They are playing in unison and both are doing the same ornaments at the same time. Rolls, cuts, triplets. I'd have to watch again a few times but I'm guessing that the mandolin is doing some triplets when a bowed triplet or short roll happens on the fiddle. 

The mandolin is not doing counter point or rhythm at all. The fiddle has all the 'back beat' due to some really good bow technique, he speeds up the bow at the end of the stroke. (classical bowing is the opposite!?) 

Mandolin can't do that of course so we need to get the pulse going with some accents on the two's and four's in reels.

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## Jill McAuley

Sean Kelleher is a young fella to watch, such great feel to his playing, but I do tend to see a common thread amongst young ones playing the mandolin in Comhaltas videos - lots of playing down nearer to the bridge vs. up near the fretboard, which to me seems like possibly the influence of tenor banjo playing. You don't tend to find many (if any) dedicated trad mandolin players back home, so many of these young people are tenor banjo players as well. Similarly here in the states I've often seen folks who are mandolin players pick up tenor banjos and play way up by the neck vs. down nearer the bridge - tenor banjos aren't mandolins and mandolins aren't tenor banjos! Some folks argue that as there's no "tradition" of mandolin playing in ITM that the skies the limit and anything goes, but I do still think it's important to get the best sound out of your instrument possible to maximize all its capabilities and truly carve out it's place in the tradition.

Cheers,
Jill

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Rick Schneider

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## foldedpath

> Sean Kelleher is a young fella to watch, such great feel to his playing, but I do tend to see a common thread amongst young ones playing the mandolin in Comhaltas videos - lots of playing down nearer to the bridge vs. up near the fretboard, which to me seems like possibly the influence of tenor banjo playing. You don't tend to find many (if any) dedicated trad mandolin players back home, so many of these young people are tenor banjo players as well. Similarly here in the states I've often seen folks who are mandolin players pick up tenor banjos and play way up by the neck vs. down nearer the bridge - tenor banjos aren't mandolins and mandolins aren't tenor banjos! Some folks argue that as there's no "tradition" of mandolin playing in ITM that the skies the limit and anything goes, but I do still think it's important to get the best sound out of your instrument possible to maximize all its capabilities and truly carve out it's place in the tradition.


I was just about to post that it sounded like tenor banjo technique, and you got there first.  :Smile: 

Couldn't agree more... it's fine playing, but I would hate to think that this is the only way forward for mandolin in Irish traditional music. We're at a disadvantage in so many areas compared to the other traditional instruments (chiefly in the realm of sustain, and articulation applied to a sustained note), but there are still a few tricks up our collective sleeves that I think can bring something to the music. 

Double and triple stop harmony, for example, which I've been trying to do more of, lately. That's a technique you don't hear much, if at all, with tenor banjo. Well, harmony itself is foreign to the music (outside of the harp tradition, maybe). But I'm thinking of what fiddlers like Kevin Burke and some of the Scottish fiddlers do with double stops, here and there. Button box players are also worth listening to, for what they do with double stops and occasional chord-like embellishments. 

Chris Thile said some interesting things in his recent interviews about the Bach project that could apply to how we approach ITM when we're "not playing a fiddle," or a similar sustaining instrument. For example, the comments about holding a note (with even a little sustain) while another note is being played. This technique wouldn't be heard in a session, but I think most of what we can talk about in terms of improving the state of mandolin playing won't apply to sessions. Maybe that's why Comhaltas encourages the tenor banjo approach? It's a style where the main ornaments (trebles) are loud and percussive enough to be heard in a session. But there's more to playing mandolin than trebles, I think.

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## Shelagh Moore

> For example, the comments about holding a note (with even a little sustain) while another note is being played. This technique wouldn't be heard in a session


 ? (I use it a fair bit). Personally, I think the Comhaltas approach is a bit prescriptive although, of course, very many fine players have emerged from that system.

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## foldedpath

> For example, the comments about holding a note (with even a little sustain) while another note is being played. This technique wouldn't be heard in a session
> 			
> 		
> 
> ? (I use it a fair bit).


I should have said, "wouldn't be heard in the session I attend." Which usually includes two pipers, so....  :Wink:

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## Shelagh Moore

Ah! That makes sense!  :Smile:

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## mikeyes

Martin Howley, Enda Scahill, Darren Moloney, Gerry O'Connor, and most of the other banjo and mandolin teachers I have had all talk about leaving a finger down as you go to the next note in order to sustain that note.  But you are right, it would not be heard in a session.  What that idea, and others like it, would do is help you develop your style.  I'll post a video of Martin showing how you can incorporate double stops and chordal sounds in your music (assuming I can find it) in the near future.

As for young Sean, he looks like he is having more fun playing with his fiddler friend and you can see and hear more animation even though he is not as precise as he is with the mandolin solo.  He has a lot of time to develop and his teacher is giving him a lot of tools to use when he matures as a mandolin player.  Enda pointed out in his class that he would often "go wild" when he was young and put off the Comhaltas judges because he strayed out of the envelope of "good taste" and acceptable technique.  Now he teaches students to win those contests but encourages them to take their precise and accurate technique and make something of it.

I found it. This is Martin playing Dinnie O'Brien's reel.  In the third iteration he uses some chordal emphasis and a very brief duo style (sort of) as a way to change the music and make it more interesting. 



I'll post another one soon.

Mike Keyes

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## Bertram Henze

> Martin Howley, Enda Scahill, Darren Moloney, Gerry O'Connor, and most of the other banjo and mandolin teachers I have had all talk about leaving a finger down as you go to the next note in order to sustain that note.  But you are right, it would not be heard in a session.


On frequent occasions, I can leave a ring finger on the 5th and let the next lower open string drone along while my index is busy on the next higher, and that is audible unless three guitar players from hell drown it out. A typical example is the B-part of Otter's Holt.

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M.Marmot

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## mikeyes

Here is another Martin Howley video this time playing the lovely reel Ormond Sound (I think by Paddy O'Brien) in which he demonstrates slide, hammer-ons and more chordal stuff.  



And here are more variations on the same tune:




Mike Keyes

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## mikeyes

Here is another one of Martin teaching a variation of the One Who Was Lost.  the variation is written on the blackboard behind him and it goes:

X:1
K:D
|cdd Gdd | Fdd EdD |



Mike Keyes

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## mikeyes

Here is the second day of Martin's class where he went into more variations on Dinny O'Brien's Reel (tThe Last House in Connacht)




You can see that he is getting used tho this mandolin (it belonged to Enda Scahill) and he has moved up to the sweet spot getting more tone and more dynamics from the instrument.  He talked about having a very loose grip on the pick (a Blue Chip, by the way .35) and relaxing into the music.

Mike Keyes

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## DougC

I like that Martin does some drone notes along with the melody. Fiddlers do this and I don't see mandolin players do it with some cross picking. He does a lot of triplets and trebles, (triplets up a scale). And his back beat is very natural. 

The kids video BTW, was remarkable because they played all the ornaments 'in sync'. I saw the banjo technique too but the fiddle bowing just blew me away.

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## M.Marmot

> Mike Keyes


I... have to... do this before i go any further  



O.K. - thats out of the way, now - thank you for posting these videos (and for Mr. Howley for sharing his expertise) 

There sure is a lot going on - i can see why you would need a recording device at one of these classes.

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Bertram Henze

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## M.Marmot

> The kids video BTW, was remarkable because they played all the ornaments 'in sync'. I saw the banjo technique too but the fiddle bowing just blew me away.


I liked the communication between them 'Theres one bit where the mandolin player looks up 'Now?' and the little fiddle player shakes his head vigorously 'No, hold on a bit' - that just cracks me up.

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## M.Marmot

> Sean Kelleher is a young fella to watch, such great feel to his playing, but I do tend to see a common thread amongst young ones playing the mandolin in Comhaltas videos - lots of playing down nearer to the bridge vs. up near the fretboard, which to me seems like possibly the influence of tenor banjo playing. *You don't tend to find many (if any) dedicated trad mandolin players back home, so many of these young people are tenor banjo players as well. Similarly here in the states I've often seen folks who are mandolin players pick up tenor banjos and play way up by the neck vs. down nearer the bridge - tenor banjos aren't mandolins and mandolins aren't tenor banjos!* Some folks argue that as there's no "tradition" of mandolin playing in ITM that the skies the limit and anything goes, but I do still think it's important to get the best sound out of your instrument possible to maximize all its capabilities and truly carve out it's place in the tradition.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jill


Aye, one of the things i kept thinking was 'I bet that as he grows older he'll "graduate up" to tenor banjo or bouzouki' - its one of the frustrating aspects of Irish mandolin that i have seen is that it's often used as a training instrument.

By the by, just the East Galway thing reminded me - another grand album for Irish mandolin 'Weeds in the Garden' by Muintir Lewis. http://thesession.org/recordings/1420

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Jill McAuley

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## DougC

Martin Hayes and Denis Cayhill do it with a slight nod but thoes kids make me laugh too.

 And as for the mandolin being a stepping stone to another instrument* I think WE right here are developing a different attitude*. We are here to 'bring the mandolin out of the closet' and do what works for a mandolin. That is, to have smaller sessiuns or sessiuns with just strings. 

Speaking of what works for mandolins. Triplets work. They are clear and loud. Hammer on's and pull off's are somewhat risky. Chris Thiele said the same in a recent interview about Bach trills.

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M.Marmot

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## M.Marmot

I think that a lot of Mr Thile's comments for his recent album do make a lot of sense for the aims of this thread...

I also got a kick out of how the folks here could spot banjo technique on those mandolin videos - knowing that sort of thing is beyond me.

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## Bertram Henze

> I also got a kick out of how the folks here could spot banjo technique on those mandolin videos - knowing that sort of thing is beyond me.


I saw it, too - there is this way of planting the picking hand wrist (look at Darren Maloney for comparison), doing triplets exactly where a banjo player would do them and the absence of doublestops.

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## mikeyes

Chris Thile produces a wonderful round tone with this grip:



It is the same grip that Marla Fibish likes, at least she told me that in a skype lesson.  I'll find out in October at the O'Flaherty Retreat (http://www.oflahertyretreat.org/) when I take her class.

The grip should be very light - the natural connection of the thumb and first finger at rest is enough to hold the pick as long as you have your thumb and finger there to counteract the force against the strings.   You should not lose your pick that often with this grip.

Thile holds his pick perpendicular to the body of the instrument but at an angle to the strings in the horizontal plane in order to get a rounder tone.  It is harder to describe the system than to show it and he does so in this video about half way through:



I've started to use this grip and tried to stay as loose as I can (which Enda and Martin also preach) in order to keep the tone and play the ornaments.  It is a lot of hard work but I am slowly getting there.

I like this grip and it seems to like a lot of mandolins.

Mike Keyes

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Peter Kurtze

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## Ian Rossiter

When I started getting serious about Mandolin, it was in the late 80's/early 90's in Newfoundland. I was fortunate to be surrounded by great traditional players who where incredibly generous/patient with a new player. As I was still figuring out the repertoire, I would often take on a Rhythm role,using closed voice bluegrass chords and chop right hand. 
 I'd get a few dirty looks from the more staunch players, but nuttin' too bad. The odd time I'd get shot a puzzled look from across the table/stage, but for the most part, it was accepted. I had no idea it wasn't the traditional role...it just made sense...to me anyways.
 As I started learning more "Chewn's" (tunes), I kinda abandoned that rhythmic style,but over the last year,I've been doing it more & more, when playing with the Metis Fiddlers here in town. 
 Sounds good/is Good !!

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## Johnozouk

Have not been watching these forums lately, and just found this thread. As to when mandolin came into Irish music, I refer to this quote: 

"Capt. Francis O'Neill refers to the mandolin in his "Irish Minstrels and Musicians" (1913). He writes of a Thomas F Kiley, a friend of Edward Cronin (who contributed many tunes to O'Neill's collections), "'The Connemara Fiddle,' as we facetiously termed the mandolin, was his favorite instrument, however. In playing Irish dance music he displayed a facility of execution almost inconceivable." "

Does anyone have that book. I don't recall where I found this reference.

Thanks,

John

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## Paul Kotapish

Certainly not among the earliest examples of Irish mandolin players, but the earliest *video* example I have found of a mandolin (and, heaven help us, an autoharp) playing traditional Irish music--in this case an instrumental version of the song "The Mountains of Pomeroy." Fun.

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Eddie Sheehy, 

M.Marmot

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## Paul Kotapish

It's possible that the mandolin gained broader acceptance in the ITM scene via the context of songs and song accompaniment with bands such as the Johnstons (with Mick Maloney and Paul Brady), the Dubliners (Barney McKenna), et al. Although mostly vocal groups, those guys could certainly blast out the tunes, too, which provided a more mainstream path for the mandolin into the scene in general. Just a thought.

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## Eddie Sheehy

The most popular mandolin player (in a ballad group) when I was growing was Derek Wardell of the Wolfe Tones.  He exclusively played the mandolin on all their songs.  Derek was my inspiration and the main reason I took up mandolin.

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citeog

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## TheBlindBard

I almost feel like a thief in the night posting on this thread, almost... unwelcome amongst all of the experience, but, I will second a lot of the suggestions here as a listener of music-- mandolin and guitar do go rather well. I'll post a link of a couple guys playing "for the star of county down" as an example. The mandolin isn't strictly doing melody, but it sounds fairly good anyways:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2umAp2qZZgM

I'm not exactly sure what the mandolin is doing here, but it sounds nice when going with the guys voice and guitar.
I love the mandolin as an instrument in it's own right and after playing it for almost 5ish months, I've really fallen in love with it and learned alot about music. I don't think of it as just a tiny guitar and proudly tell people that It is a mandolin.

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## DougC

Guitar and mandolin. Yup, a good bass - treble combination.  They are just strumming chords in Star of the County Down - but it really works. 

Another favorite of mine is Bouzouki and Mandola or mandolin. Brian McDonagh (mandolin) and Michael Holmes strum too but with amazing style and rhythm. Check them out in the Irish super band called Dervish.

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bookmn, 

dmcginnis, 

Fretless, 

Loretta Callahan

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## Beanzy

Why have they locked them in a jail? Be sure to take care (and a toothbrush) if you're ever asked to a session in Penn  :Smile: 

For me Bazouki/Octave sound has already been well pegged out since the 70s in trad, with the lovely low twang hitting the main rythm and up-pick with less bass and higher overtones taking in the off beats. I've often heard it playing against the bodhran role with one backing out to make space for the other to jump in and pick up. I think for my ear the mandolin really needs to be looking to the flute and fiddle and seeing what space there is to compliment their roles. 

If you could get a tame fiddler and flautist to practice with you could really work something great out there, maybe with people passing the tune between them so only two are going full-bore at any time and they come in and out in a sequence.

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## M.Marmot

This talk of bouzouki and percussion reminded me that Luke Plumbs album - A Splendid Notion - shows a great use of the mandolin coupled with a sympathetic percussive backing. Its very spare album but the music is immense.

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## M.Marmot

I can't believe that i'm about to offer this one up - but - listening to Hamilton De Holanda and Stefano Bollani, and i've been reminded that mandolin and piano can sound pretty damn good together - was often used in ragtime and blues(?) tunes, i believe.

I'm not a big fan of piano in trad so i can't offer any good examples of that pairing - i don't even know if there is - there must be, no?

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## Paul Kotapish

Piano can be great paired with the mandolin. It's probably more common in the jazz context, but it sounds good for trad tunes, too.

I'm not familiar with any mandolin-piano duets playing traditional Irish music exclusively, but mandolin and piano are very common elements in contradance bands--typically with a fiddle and/or accordion or wind player rounding out the sound. Most "northern" bands playing for contradances include a fair number of traditional Irish tunes in their repertoires. 

Piano and mandolin work together really well in the dance-band context, and can provide a lot of lift and drive to the rhythm section.  I've played with loads of great piano players over the decades who really know ITM well, including Paul Machlis, Peter Barnes, Laurie Andres, Daniel Steinberg, Mary Cay Brass, Charlie Hancock, and many others. In fact, I played a gig last week with a great Irish piano player named Eamonn Flynn--who regularly plays with the Black Brothers band. He plays ITM, jazz, pop, or anything you can imagine.

There are some other great piano players playing pure ITM--Charlie Lennon comes to mind--but the instrument is much more common in Scottish, Shetland, Cape Breton, and Québécois scenes, which are all bursting with pianists who really know the tunes and how to back them up. Mandolin isn't altogether common in any of those scenes, but there are great examples of mandolin and piano sounding great together in each.

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## Dagger Gordon

Andy Thorburn is a great piano player in the North of Scotland who has played with loads of people.

On my CD The Frozen River Andy and I do some mandolin/piano things.  Not Irish, it's true, but still ...

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## M.Marmot

> Andy Thorburn is a great piano player in the North of Scotland who has played with loads of people.
> 
> On my CD The Frozen River Andy and I do some mandolin/piano things.  Not Irish, it's true, but still ...


I don't know about the O.P.s opinion on this but personally speaking i would'nt be too doctrinaire on the 'Irish' side of things - sure, Donegal shares some powerful connections with scottish music - i think the advantage that mandolin has in a lot of traditional repertoire is that as a relative late-comer to most trad parties it can afford to dip and dive into whatever makes sense with respect to the music repertoire.

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## M.Marmot

> Piano can be great paired with the mandolin. It's probably more common in the jazz context, but it sounds good for trad tunes, too.
> 
> I'm not familiar with any mandolin-piano duets playing traditional Irish music exclusively, but mandolin and piano are very common elements in contradance bands--typically with a fiddle and/or accordion or wind player rounding out the sound. Most "northern" bands playing for contradances include a fair number of traditional Irish tunes in their repertoires. 
> 
> Piano and mandolin work together really well in the dance-band context, and can provide a lot of lift and drive to the rhythm section.  I've played with loads of great piano players over the decades who really know ITM well, including Paul Machlis, Peter Barnes, Laurie Andres, Daniel Steinberg, Mary Cay Brass, Charlie Hancock, and many others. In fact, I played a gig last week with a great Irish piano player named Eamonn Flynn--who regularly plays with the Black Brothers band. He plays ITM, jazz, pop, or anything you can imagine.
> 
> There are some other great piano players playing pure ITM--Charlie Lennon comes to mind--but the instrument is much more common in Scottish, Shetland, Cape Breton, and Québécois scenes, which are all bursting with pianists who really know the tunes and how to back them up. Mandolin isn't altogether common in any of those scenes, but there are great examples of mandolin and piano sounding great together in each.


I'll certainly try and research some of those names - thank you.

The only ITM piano player who comes to my mind would be one of the Vallely lads, Caoimhin. 

I think he's been on that Transatlantic Sessions programme with Aly Bain a few times.

I'm not sure of this but i think that the piano in ITM garnered a bit of a dubious reputation back in the day - or recently - who can tell -

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## zoukboy

Check out Brian McGrath's playing with De Dannan, John Carty, et al. He's the favourite piano player of many great Irish musicians and is also a first rate tenor banjo player.

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## foldedpath

> I'm not sure of this but i think that the piano in ITM garnered a bit of a dubious reputation back in the day - or recently - who can tell -


You may be thinking of a very specific example, which is the general feeling about the piano backing for Michael Coleman's fiddle recordings in New York City from the 1920's and '30's. These recordings are considered early classics, but the hired piano players apparently knew nothing about Irish traditional music, and it shows. The rhythm is terrible, and they play these bouncy major key chords behind "modal" fiddle tunes. It's a trainwreck, but the fiddling is a very important example of what Irish traditional music (fiddling, at least) sounded like at the time, so you have to mentally block out the piano to hear what Coleman is doing. 

Piano players got a bad rap from that series of recordings, and some of it may have stuck over the years. The Bothy Band had an electric piano back in the '70's, but keyboards don't seem very common in contemporary Irish performance bands. Maybe it has something to do with the Rise of the Guitar into musical dominance in the post-60's-70's era? Guitars and pianos don't usually mix that well.

On the other hand, piano seems like almost the default backing instrument for Cape Breton music. The kids in musical families often learn both piano and fiddle, and play both equally well. It's a treat to see musicians like Andrea Beaton, Natalie MacMaster, and Troy MacGillivray switch back and forth between fiddle and piano during their gigs.

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## Eddie Sheehy

The Portland Collection 1 and 2 features Mandolin (Clyde Curley), Piano (Susan Songer) and Violin (George Penk).  The interplay of the instruments is astounding and there are a lot of Irish tunes.

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DougC, 

M.Marmot

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## DougC

> The Portland Collection 1 and 2 features Mandolin (Clyde Curley), Piano (Susan Songer) and Violin (George Penk).  The interplay of the instruments is astounding and there are a lot of Irish tunes.


As a contra dancer, I have to add our own John Goodin, who plays mandolin (and contributes to mandolin cafe and the Classical Mandolin Society of America). He plays with Patrice Pakiz on piano in a band called Contratopia. They have also fiddle and concertina and their arrangements include the mandolin with wonderful creative flair.
 Maybe John can say something here about their Irish tunes.
http://www.contratopia.com/Cgroup.htm

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## Randi Gormley

Around these parts, it's pretty usual to have keyboards with ITM, mostly because of Brendan Dolan (and his late father, Felix). I can see where that might just be specific to our tiny corner of NY/NJ/Ct though

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## Dagger Gordon

There is lots of piano accompaniment in Scottish and Irish dance music.

It is the combination of mandolin and piano which is less common.

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M.Marmot

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## Bertram Henze

Since ITM became a loud and noisy pub event, leaving the quiet and delicate harp in the dust, the harp got dressed up as a loud and noisy avenger and is now called _The Piano_.

There would have been other ways, though.

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## Dagger Gordon

David Grisman has done a CD with jazz pianist Denny Zeitlin - New River.

Not Irish of course, but nice to hear only piano and mandolin.

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=1848274

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M.Marmot

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## M.Marmot

> You may be thinking of a very specific example, which is the general feeling about the piano backing for Michael Coleman's fiddle recordings in New York City from the 1920's and '30's. These recordings are considered early classics, but the hired piano players apparently knew nothing about Irish traditional music, and it shows. The rhythm is terrible, and they play these bouncy major key chords behind "modal" fiddle tunes. It's a trainwreck, but the fiddling is a very important example of what Irish traditional music (fiddling, at least) sounded like at the time, so you have to mentally block out the piano to hear what Coleman is doing. 
> 
> Piano players got a bad rap from that series of recordings, and some of it may have stuck over the years. The Bothy Band had an electric piano back in the '70's, but keyboards don't seem very common in contemporary Irish performance bands. *Maybe it has something to do with the Rise of the Guitar into musical dominance in the post-60's-70's era?* Guitars and pianos don't usually mix that well.
> 
> On the other hand, piano seems like almost the default backing instrument for Cape Breton music. The kids in musical families often learn both piano and fiddle, and play both equally well. It's a treat to see musicians like Andrea Beaton, Natalie MacMaster, and Troy MacGillivray switch back and forth between fiddle and piano during their gigs.


Those Coleman recordings do crop up frequently on researching the subject - and you are right, the piano is never given many kind words.

I remember adapting myself to the, was it a clavichord, on The Bothy Band recordings, i think it was the slightly more harpsichord sound they had that endeared it to me - that and well, it was The Bothy Band.

I have thought the decline of the piano in trad would have gone hand in hand with the decline of pianos in parlors and barrooms - when i was a kid not a lot of places that i know of could boast an upright piano especially not one in tune. 

Guitars, would have proven handier... tis true. 

Funnily enough it seems that piano may have dwindled just about the same time that the rhythm sections of trad sessions bulked up.

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## M.Marmot

> Certainly not among the earliest examples of Irish mandolin players, but the earliest *video* example I have found of a mandolin (and, heaven help us, an autoharp) playing traditional Irish music--in this case an instrumental version of the song "The Mountains of Pomeroy." Fun.


hmm... i smell a skiffle band in mufti  :Laughing:

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## dmcginnis

Regarding piano in traditional Irish sessions, if you are in the Washington DC area on a Sunday, there is a regular piano-led session at P. Brennan's pub in Arlington around noon (start time varies when football season is on).  Dennis (Doc) Botzer and Mark Glickman share piano duties and there is always another lead player weekly driving the session.  It is a great session with fantastic players (including all-Ireland champions) founded on solid piano playing.

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## zoukboy

> I remember adapting myself to the, was it a clavichord, on The Bothy Band recordings, i think it was the slightly more harpsichord sound they had that endeared it to me - that and well, it was The Bothy Band.


Close: it was a Clavinet - an electrified clavichord.



But it was loud enough acoustically that Triona would sometimes play it in sessions.

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## Eddie Sheehy

I sat next to Triona my first year in College (UCD) in Irish Literature class.  I never knew she played an instrument until I saw the Bothy Band years later... I don't think she spoke more than a few sentences back then - very introverted.  What a revelation to see her playing and singing.

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## Bertram Henze

Triona ni Domhnaill ist still around, playing the piano:

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DougC

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## ptritz

By the way, Triona and Maighread Ni Dhomhnaill and Daithi Sproule are reuniting for a short Skara Brae tour in the U.S. this fall.  They'll be in Milwaukee, Madison, St. Paul, Portland, and Seattle.

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