# Octaves, Zouks, Citterns, Tenors and Electrics > CBOM >  Looking for exotic scales for Mandola

## Gypsy

I can’t seem to find any information on exotic scales for the Mandola. 
like Freygish, Gypsy, Harmonic Minor. And any others.
The middle eastern music sounds  so beautiful to me. 
Does anyone know where I can find information on these ?
I can’t read music, so I need Fretboard grafts, please and thank you

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## DavidKOS

> I can’t seem to find any information on exotic scales for the Mandola. 
> like Freygish, Gypsy, Harmonic Minor. And any others.
> The middle eastern music sounds  so beautiful to me. 
> Does anyone know where I can find information on these ?
> I can’t read music, so I need Fretboard grafts, please and thank you ��


I could suggest a large number of Greek, Arabic, Turkish, Afghan, etc. websites....but it's all in staff notation.

You don't need to learn to sight read, but if you could work up to figuring out the notes on the treble clef, you could access all that scale info.

One other point - it's not just a "scale". All the Middle Eastern musical systems associate melodic movement with each maqam, scale, dromo, dastgah, etc.

You can have two scales with the same pitches but are melodic quite different.

Anyway, I hope you have luck learning the music of the East.

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Gypsy

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## Gypsy

Thank you David. 
I was able to read music as a child and lost that talent somewhere along the way . 
thank you for your wonderful comment. 
I hope you have a nice day 😊

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> Thank you David. 
> I was able to read music as a child and lost that talent somewhere along the way . 
> thank you for your wonderful comment. 
> I hope you have a nice day


And you too!

here are a few Arabic places to start:

http://www.learnarabicmusic.com/Lear...bic%20Music-E/

https://www.maqamworld.com/en/index.php

http://www.turkishmusicportal.org/en

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Gypsy, 

ondrej, 

Simon DS

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## Simon DS

I found that it’s much easier to use tab for this, I did a vid on what I knew about the Harmonic Minor scale a while ago. 
It helps a lot too, if you have fretboard vids of people playing the tunes because fingering can be problematic. 
Some techniques become much more important than others depending on what music you want to play and a teacher is probably a good idea.
Good luck, there are some wonderful, colourful scales about.

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Gypsy

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## allenhopkins

Well, my shorthand approach for _freygish,_ which is a Yiddish-ism for Phrygian, is to take a standard minor scale, and play in the "5" chord of that scale.  Example: playing in the key of D, but using a G minor scale.

Standard D scale   D  E  F#  G  A  B  C#  D

_Freygish_      D  D#  F  G  A  A#  C  D

That's what sorta works for me.  People with real theoretical knowledge, feel free to poke holes in my explanation...

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Gypsy

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## Gypsy

Thank you very much David !

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## Gypsy

Thank you so much Allen. That helps a lot .

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## Gypsy

Yes tablature would definitely be best. Ill seek a teacher. Thank you Simon. Ill check out your videos ! 😊

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## DavidKOS

> Well, my shorthand approach for _freygish,_ which is a Yiddish-ism for Phrygian, is to take a standard minor scale, and play in the "5" chord of that scale.  Example: playing in the key of D, but using a G minor scale.
> 
> Standard D scale   D  E  F#  G  A  B  C#  D
> 
> _Freygish_      D  D#  F  G  A  A#  C  D
> 
> That's what sorta works for me.  People with real theoretical knowledge, feel free to poke holes in my explanation...


The correct spelling of the scale is:

D Eb F# G A Bb C D

"playing in the key of D, but using a G minor scale"

Actually it is the G harmonic minor scale from the 5th scale degree.



The last scale in the picture should have a C natural to be Mixolydian or Molokh Adonai, though. The scale they used is major, not mixolydian.

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allenhopkins, 

DougC, 

Gypsy

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## DougC

For you, it is exotic. For me, it is a living. (familiar quote). I'm sure I have some stuff in TAB. Stay tuned.

A quick look thru a few hundred charts and I found this; which may be useful.

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Gypsy

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## DavidKOS

> For you, it is exotic. For me, it is a living. (familiar quote).


That reminds me of a comment I heard in the early 80's at the first couple of Klez camps in New York:

Dm is not just another key, it's a way of life.

There is a lot of connection to the Southern form of Klezmer that was popular in the USA to Greek and Turkish music.

http://www.tsalo.fi/Greek%20and%20Turkish%20scales.html

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DougC, 

Gypsy

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## Gypsy

David, Thank you 😊

- - - Updated - - -

Thank you, Doug ! 😊

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## Gypsy

This is great, thank you for finding this Doug !!!

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## DougC

> This is great, thank you for finding this Doug !!!


Yea, that's a good chart. With a little creative effort, one can play just the chords from one to the next with some tremlo and have a very Russian sounding doyna. Or one can play the note patterns forward and then backwards every two bar group. There is a lot if information there. I'm gonna play with it some more. eg. write the TAB for mandola and add some finger charts in CGDA.

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DavidKOS, 

Gypsy

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## Gypsy

Im playing with it a lot. I really appreciate it. Thank you for your help. 
That sounds great. Please share 😊

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## Explorer

Gypsy, there are a couple of books I pull out when building materials from scratch, A Visual Guide to Chords and Arpeggios for Tenor Banjo in CGDA, and A Visual Guide to Scales for Tenor Banjo in CGDA. Both are by Benjamin M. Taylor.

The books have some funkiness, as the numbering of the pages in the TOC is off by a consistent offset which was missed in final editing, but the information is laid out spanning the whole fretboard.

I think I got both new for $24 from Amazon.

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Gypsy, 

urobouros

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## Gypsy

Great !
 Thank you very much Explorer, that sounds perfect 😊

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## DougC

> Gypsy, there are a couple of books I pull out when building materials from scratch, A Visual Guide to Chords and Arpeggios for Tenor Banjo in CGDA, and A Visual Guide to Scales for Tenor Banjo in CGDA. Both are by Benjamin M. Taylor.
> 
> The books have some funkiness, as the numbering of the pages in the TOC is off by a consistent offset which was missed in final editing, but the information is laid out spanning the whole fretboard.


Since that book has been out, others have made similar (and easier to understand), books and software programs.  One called the Absolute Fretboard Trainer is outstanding.
http://www.micrologus.com/orders#abs...tboard_trainer

Another is called Fretboard Toolbox by Scott Sharp  - very good for building chords and chord patterns.  
https://www.fretboard-toolbox.com/te...d-mandola.html

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Gypsy, 

urobouros

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## Simon DS

Here’s a scale reference page, there’s an audio file for each one.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ales_and_modes
It can be good to get a teacher though, at least to show you how some scales are similar to others. Makes the complexity easier to understand.
eg. with modes: G major scale, ionic , A dorian, B phrygian, C lydian and D mixolydian, E aeolian, and F# locrian all use the same notes, just differing centres.

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Explorer, 

Gypsy

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## Gypsy

Thank you, Simon, very generous of you !
I will seek a teacher.

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## Gypsy

Thank you,Doug I do have fretboard toolbox for guitar, mandolin and CGDA. 
I’ll check out the other also. 
I appreciate it !

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## DougC

> Thank you,Doug I do have fretboard toolbox for guitar, mandolin and CGDA. 
> Ill check out the other also. 
> I appreciate it !


You are certainly welcome Gypsy. Everyone is helpful here.
 I might add however that looking at books and charts is about as exciting as reading a dictionary! Interactive software helps. But...
_I'm much more inclined to learn some tunes in a particular mode, by ear and then figure what intervals and patterns are there. 
_

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Gypsy

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## Explorer

> I might add however that looking at books and charts is about as exciting as reading a dictionary! Interactive software helps. But...
> 
> I'm much more inclined to learn some tunes in a particular mode, by ear and then figure what intervals and patterns are there.


An alternate point of view...

When learning new knowledge or a new skill, it's not about the looking. One obviously needs to actually practice what is being studied in order to internalize it. Whether one sits with a book and plays against a metronome or backing track from YouTube, or uses software which tries to anticipate how to combine such activities, it's still going to be work. 

Learning a mode by looking at tunes built on that mode, and then figuring out what the actual bones of the mode are, works for some. It can also work for others to learn the bones, and then learn tunes which sit on top of them. I personally think, from the standpoint of a teacher, that the sooner you can get to the nuts and bolta of the underpinnings, like say letters, the sooner the student can then learn them completely, and not struggle trying to recall them when building words, and then sentences and then writing longer ideas in various forms. 

Studies indicate that rote learning of the nitty gritty basics helps a student internalize to where they no longer have to figure those basics out anew every time their needed. If one learns the ABC song and how to write the letters, or learns the times tables, or learns a mode, through rote repitition and internalization, then it's there to build on.

And no, it's not necessarily exciting, but it is a proven strategy to really learn and master knowlege. It doesn't matter if it's a book, a screen, an audio file, it's the quality time and practice invested in actually internalizing the knowedge. 

The reason I've never discouraged someone from working with books is that software only covers what the builder imagines someone wants. It's the same issue as when someone's learning is limited to tabbed music. 

Right now, I've been working on really learning Gypsy Jazz on mandola. There's no real sources for CGDA tuning, so I built an incomplete chord dictionary using modified Freddy Green concepts, three-note chords with either the root or fifth on the lowest string, and then either a 3-7 or 7-3 stack on top. I then build a chord chart for the target tune, with different chord variations. Then I sit down with a metronome or recording and pompe my way through it. Once the chords are second nature, then melody and soloing happen, and it is definite helpful to have gypsy jazz books for guitar which explain the ornamentation. I could discern those ornaments over time, but having the basics laid out makes uptake (actual perception and understanding of what I'm hoping to learn) easier, skipping the problem of figuring out what is actually important regarding the bones. 

And all the bones now being used for tackling this particular subject came from books, internalized through boring practice.

Nothing against software, of course, especially if the software covers what one wants, and one can easily and quickly fire it up where one wants to use it. 

----

TL;DR... If mastery is the goal, not "exciting" isn't might not be the best way to judge a learning resource.

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DavidKOS, 

Gypsy

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## DougC

Sometimes my comments really 'strike a nerve'. Oh well. Without it however, Explorer may have never mentioned the great work he's doing with Gypsy Jazz on mandola. That is VERY COOL.

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DavidKOS

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## Gypsy

Explorer,
I ordered those two books from Amazon. 
thank you for the recommendation.

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## Don Stiernberg

great discussion you cats

 another approach that may interest the original poster is to number the tones, and create a "formula" for the new scale as compared to a major scale
  I just looked at David's excellent response where he displays a D major scale and a Freygish starting on D. Looks like ( help me here everybody)..the Freygish "formula"would be 1, b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7, 1. What do you think? If that works, it might be a route to memorization...

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DavidKOS, 

Gypsy

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## DavidKOS

> great discussion you cats
> 
>  another approach that may interest the original poster is to number the tones, and create a "formula" for the new scale as compared to a major scale
>   I just looked at David's excellent response where he displays a D major scale and a Freygish starting on D. Looks like ( help me here everybody)..the Freygish "formula"would be 1, b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7, 1. What do you think? If that works, it might be a route to memorization...


Freygish would be:

1 b2 *3* 4 5 b6 b7.

"the Freygish "formula"would be 1, b2,*b3*,4,5,b6,b7, "

That's the formula for plain Phrygian mode, which gave the name to the Klezmer mode.

The difference is the natural 3rd. This is the "Hava Nagila" scale - and as Hijaz is also used in Greek, Arabic, and Turkish music.

That augmented 2nd between scale degrees b2 and 3 is the characteristic sound of the mode.

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Gypsy

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## Don Stiernberg

Aha! Yes...
        In your earlier post the tones listed for Freygish included F natural. You did say start with a minor scale, so in this recent post when you say "natural 3rd" you mean the minor third? It still seems to me if you start with D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D (D major scale) then b2, b3, b6, b7 it yields D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb-C-D. But there it is in your last comment--the augmented 2nd between scale degrees b2 and 3 is the characteristic sound of the mode. So on the previous post F should have been listed as F#?

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Gypsy

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## DavidKOS

> Aha! Yes...
>         In your earlier post the tones listed for Freygish included F natural. You did say start with a minor scale, so in this recent post when you say "natural 3rd" you mean the minor third? It still seems to me if you start with D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D (D major scale) then b2, b3, b6, b7 it yields D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb-C-D. But there it is in your last comment--the augmented 2nd between scale degrees b2 and 3 is the characteristic sound of the mode. So on the previous post F should have been listed as F#?


You may accidentally have my earlier posts confused with Alan's.

His post:




> _Freygish_      D  D#  *F*  G  A  A#  C  D



Here's my original post with the corrected scale spelling:




> The correct spelling of the scale is:
> 
> D Eb *F#* G A Bb C D



No, I always was referring to the natural major 3rd, the F# in this case. I hope this helps clear that up.

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Gypsy

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## Don Stiernberg

Thank you David!
            That's it exactly--I was looking at Alan's post. Thanks for clearing things up.

       What's your take on describing scales/modes as formulae in this fashion? 1,b2, 3 etc.

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DavidKOS, 

Gypsy

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## DavidKOS

> Thank you David!
>             That's it exactly--I was looking at Alan's post. Thanks for clearing things up.
> 
>        What's your take on describing scales/modes as formulae in this fashion? 1,b2, 3 etc.


That's all Ok, my friend.

This is a deep subject...I'm still studying it.

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## Gypsy

Thank you Don. 
Yes, that is a good idea. If I wasnt so dyslexic lol 😂 
Ill give it a shot. Ive got a couple great books coming today by Benjamin M. Taylor. 
Ill see what comes of that !

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## Gypsy

Thank you sooo much everyone. I really appreciate all your time and effort to help me.
i hope youre all happy and well. 
Have a Wonderful Day 😊

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## DavidKOS

> Thank you David!
>             That's it exactly--I was looking at Alan's post. Thanks for clearing things up.
> 
>        What's your take on describing scales/modes as formulae in this fashion? 1,b2, 3 etc.


Those formulae work very well to describe various scales and modes, and make it easy to find a particular scale in any key. Plus they show clearly which notes vary from a basic major scale.

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Gypsy

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## catmandu2

This fellow has many vids introducing the most common maqam  https://youtu.be/eKZYlFrgub8

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Gypsy

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## Joe Bartl

Explorer and Gypsy, I see the Benjamin Taylor books on Amazon ... but it appears that there are separate editions of the same title.  The only difference seems to be the color of the covers and the ISBNs.  Can you say if there is a difference between these?  Thanks for your help.

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## zoukboy

> What's your take on describing scales/modes as formulae in this fashion? 1,b2, 3 etc.


Adding my 2 cents here: it's helpful in a comparative since, especially when playing a wide range of these on an equally-tempered Western instrument (or the approximation of that on our fretted mandolins, mandolas, bouzoukis, etc.), but I think it's important to point out that in the vast majority of performing practices which utilize this system individual notes are different from one mode/makam/maqam to another. For instance, the note that we would call an Eb in Hijaz on D ("D Eb F# G A Bb C) is not the same pitch as the "Eb" in makam Husseini, etc., etc.  Just in case you decide to try playing with some Greek, Arabic, Turkish, or other musicians who are not playing fretted instruments. 

For the Arabic perspective I can highly recommend maqamworld.com

Enjoy!

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DavidKOS, 

Gypsy

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## DavidKOS

> This fellow has many vids introducing the most common maqam  https://youtu.be/eKZYlFrgub8


Good basic intro - but read my response below please




> Adding my 2 cents here: it's helpful in a comparative since, especially when playing a wide range of these on an equally-tempered Western instrument (or the approximation of that on our fretted mandolins, mandolas, bouzoukis, etc.), but I think it's important to point out that in the vast majority of performing practices which utilize this system individual notes are different from one mode/makam/maqam to another. For instance, the note that we would call an Eb in Hijaz on D ("D Eb F# G A Bb C) is not the same pitch as the "Eb" in makam Husseini, etc., etc.  Just in case you decide to try playing with some Greek, Arabic, Turkish, or other musicians who are not playing fretted instruments. 
> 
> For the Arabic perspective I can highly recommend maqamworld.com
> 
> Enjoy!


Maqam world is great!

This is a great point - many of the genres of maqam-oriented music do not use the 12 tone equal tempered scale.

Greek bouzouki, mandolin and lauto music use the regular 12T ET fixed metal frets like guitar and mandolin.  Much Afghan music can be played in the same system, and a good deal of North african music can be played too, like the music for the mandol.

The modern Greek dromo are related to the turkish makamlar, but were adapted to Western fretting and as such are a link to the Klezmer/Gypsy/Eastern European/Balkan musical systems that also use "normal" pitches.

However, to really play Arabic and Turkish music (and Persian, but that's in the Dastgah system) you need instruments that are either fretless like the oud or have many moveable frets, like the tambur, saz, lavta, or buzuq.

For example, we will notate in the Arabic system the note D and Eb, but that half-step could be very narrow, like as the b6 in Hejaz on G, G Ab B C D Eb. (but the G to Ab is wide as is the B to C)

It's a bit less narrow in D Kurdi, D Eb F G A, and even wider in D Hejaz, D Eb F# G A. 

One Arabic scholar/player thinks he plays 13 different pitches between the lowest Eb and the highest E depending on the melodic passage and maqam.

https://music.ucsb.edu/people/scott-marcus

Dr. Marcus wrote a great paper on Maqam music.

http://misrfone.net/wp-content/uploa...ern-Period.pdf

https://books.google.com/books/about...d=G-4pnQEACAAJ

Fretting on the neck of a Turkish lute:

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Gypsy

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## David Surette

I think folks here may find it interesting to look at the thaat system of raga classification that can be found in North Indian classical music. This evolved in the 19th century as a way to classify and group different ragas into "families" of sorts, with these 10 thaats listed as the most popular or widespread. Thaats contain 7 notes, plus the octave, so they translate nicely as scales, from our western perspective. Obviously this is a huge area, but in terms of looking for an inspiring resource for exotic sounding scales that would sound good on a mandolin or mandola, I think these are worth exploring. 6 of them correspond to familiar western modes: Bilaval (major), Khamaj (mixolydian), Kafi (dorian), Asavari (natural minor), Bhairavi (phrygian), and Kalyan (lydian). Then there are: Todi (1, b2, b3, #4, 5, b6, 7,1), Purvi (1, b2, 3, #4, 5, b6, 7, 1), Marva (1, b2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7, 1) and Bhairav (1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7, 1).

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DavidKOS, 

Gypsy

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## DavidKOS

> I think folks here may find it interesting to look at the thaat system of raga classification that can be found in North Indian classical music. This evolved in the 19th century as a way to classify and group different ragas into "families" of sorts, with these 10 thaats listed as the most popular or widespread. Thaats contain 7 notes, plus the octave, so they translate nicely as scales, from our western perspective. Obviously this is a huge area, but in terms of looking for an inspiring resource for exotic sounding scales that would sound good on a mandolin or mandola, I think these are worth exploring. 6 of them correspond to familiar western modes: Bilaval (major), Khamaj (mixolydian), Kafi (dorian), Asavari (natural minor), Bhairavi (phrygian), and Kalyan (lydian). Then there are: Todi (1, b2, b3, #4, 5, b6, 7,1), Purvi (1, b2, 3, #4, 5, b6, 7, 1), Marva (1, b2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7, 1) and Bhairav (1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7, 1).


This is another great system, but it is somewhat different than the makam traditions, although there are a number of similarities.

The essential thing is to remember a raga is not just a scale or mode, but is a melodic shape and pattern.

You can have 2 ragas with identical "scales" that are different - different notes of importance, melodic shapes, etc.

Thanks for bringing this up.

http://www.oart.eu/joomla/

Afghan robab (rubab, rebab, etc.) is fretted in a more-or-less Western system that includes a version of the North Indian ragas.

http://www.oart.eu/joomla/melody

Some of the modes used.

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Gypsy

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## catmandu2

@David -

Ya Murat shows them all on ouds too (in other vids).  Here he's just applying it to guitar...thought it more relevant for applying maqam on (equivalent tempered) mandola.

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DavidKOS

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## Explorer

> Explorer and Gypsy, I see the Benjamin Taylor books on Amazon ... but it appears that there are separate editions of the same title.  The only difference seems to be the color of the covers and the ISBNs.  Can you say if there is a difference between these?  Thanks for your help.


The books are not in front of me, but I think the pink one has diagrams of the scales, covering the entire fretboard.

The blue one is of chords, and since each diagram covers the entire fretboard, it can be used to learn those arpeggios in any position. In other words, it is of scales and of arpeggiated chords.

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DougC, 

Gypsy, 

Joe Bartl

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## DavidKOS

> @David -
> 
> Ya Murat shows them all on ouds too (in other vids).  Here he's just applying it to guitar...thought it *more relevant for applying maqam on (equivalent tempered)* mandola.


You're right, of course. My error in not watching his other videos.

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## catmandu2

I prbly should have posted this one instead - he says straight out what he's doing (_approximating_ maqam on guitar).

https://youtu.be/HNm1hfWOK_M

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DavidKOS, 

Gypsy

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## Gypsy

Yes Joe , the pink one is scales and the blue one is chords. I ordered both and they are proving invaluable.

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Joe Bartl

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