# Music by Genre > Jazz/Blues Variants, Bossa, Choro, Klezmer >  Mandolin Chord & Voicing choices over gypsy jazz tunes

## mbruno

Hi all,

I've been looking for ways to better my rhythm section playing over gypsy jazz tunes specifically.  I've been focusing on Django mostly due to a band I sit in with often (and bc it's amazingly fun) but I finding some difficultly when playing the rhythm chords for some songs - usually the ones with more changes oddly enough.  

When I hear others play, I'll often hear changes that don't sound like the chords written (at least as I know them).  When possible, I'll ask what chords someone used and I've picked up some fun substitutions that work well.

Take a song like It Don't Mean A Thing.  The first part of the verse is:

G -  F#  | F  E | Eb7  D7 | G          |
C7        | F7   | Bb        | Bb  D7+ |

Over the first run, I usually will either play the full chords or just the 1 and 3 starting around the 7th fret of the mando.  But, that gets repeatative really quick and when I listen to the records, I'm hearing something more that what's written but I can't seem to place it.  

So here's the question and I realize that a lot of it depends on the situation - but if you were playing this song with a small trio right now, what would you do to keep the rhythm chords fresh? What would you play?  Which inversions?  Do you swap the D7 for Fdim7?  If possible, I'd love if someone would rewrite the verse with some inversion suggestions and explain why.

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Bigtuna

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## TcheddyG

Hi mbruno!

Gypsy Jazz has been my main gig for many years (on guitar) so I think I can explain some of this to you. This tune is actually not such a great example of tune for stretching out as an ensemble (ie rhythm) player and doing lots of substitutions, etc, because it's usually played at ridiculously fast tempos. Still, there are some other things that you can do to make it interesting.




> Hi all,
> When I hear others play, I'll often hear changes that don't sound like the chords written (at least as I know them).  When possible, I'll ask what chords someone used and I've picked up some fun substitutions that work well.


Don't be too concerned about this. Even when playing the same changes each player has their own way of swinging that beat. That's why out of so many great rhythm guitarists of the big band era, we only here about a select few all the time.




> Take a song like It Don't Mean A Thing.  The first part of the verse is:
> 
> G -  F#  | F  E | Eb7  D7 | G          |
> C7        | F7   | Bb        | Bb  D7+ |
> 
> Over the first run, I usually will either play the full chords or just the 1 and 3 starting around the 7th fret of the mando.  But, that gets repeatative really quick and when I listen to the records, I'm hearing something more that what's written but I can't seem to place it.  
> 
> So here's the question and I realize that a lot of it depends on the situation - but if you were playing this song with a small trio right now, what would you do to keep the rhythm chords fresh? What would you play?  Which inversions?  Do you swap the D7 for Fdim7?  If possible, I'd love if someone would rewrite the verse with some inversion suggestions and explain why.


If you haven't yet, maybe nows a good time delve into fingerboard harmony a little. See how you can use your chord scales to move up and down the fingerboard into and out of the next changes.

As for the question itself, here are some ideas that I'd do:
1. For the D7, yes, you could do that but you don't really have enough time to make that effect worth while. But, when you do, I'd use an F#dim or an F#m7b5 - we're talking dominant chords, F# is the 3rd of a D7 chord. Playing an F would make it a Dm. I'd do accents like this: Fm7b5 - F#m7b5 - Fm7b5 F#m7b5. You can hear Wawau Adler doing something similar here (and me doing the same thing before, but it's hard to hear with the sound the way it is: http://http://tinyurl.com/8pfpevj

2. For the Gm ascending figure try this:

Gm - Gm/F | Gm/E - Eb7 | D7 - Gm    ----- You've got the descending bass line into the I chord. It's what the bass is doing as well.
C7    | F7   | Bb        | A7b9**   D7 | Gm 

**You can also think of this chord as an Eb7.

The A7b9 - I have yet to know if I can play that chord on my mandolin, but if I can, than the flatted 9 is a Bb so it's basically the same shape as an Eb7.

3. For the Gm section. Line cliche it into the ground: Gm - GmMaj7 - Gm7 - Gm6
4. You can also tremolo the one or more chords in the bridge.

Another way way to look at the bridge chords:
C7 - F7/B | BbMaj    Cm6-Gb7 **| BbMaj/D

**For this, BbMaj gets two beats, Cm6 and Gg7 are each getting one.                  

I hope these ideas at least give you some ideas as to where you can go from here!

All the best and keep swinging. 

Ted

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mbruno, 

robert.najlis

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## johnparrott

Interesting problem. Yes, it gets played way too fast, and yes, rhythm sections get trapped by the need to repeat that descending pattern to the point where it becomes a death spiral. And I think that your instinct to not replicate what everyone else is doing is smart. I don't know the instrumentation of your band, but bass and rhythm guitar probably have the changes covered. I would work around them and keep the snappy alterations to a minimum so that you leave the soloists some room. 

I'd go back to the Ellington versions...he's the source, after all... and keep an ear out for the tempos and the different way the band handles the "A" part. I think you'll be surprised at how different it is from the way you're thinking of the song now. The soloists and the the section parts use the descending figure from time to time, but (if I remember right) the F# doesn't show up much, and nobody's chained to it. I'm not saying you need to do it just like Duke, but a little bit of his perspective wouldn't hurt. 

I've heard the same thing happen in the "B" part of Dinah and the "A" part of "Blue Skies". It's a snare, for sure.

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mbruno

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## mbruno

Big thanks Ted and John!  

@Ted - I agree about not having enough time for the sub that I mentioned.  Honestly, it's just the one I could think of off my head - I appreciate the correction to that too.  For the bridge changs though




> The original I wrote (from my sheet music)
> C7 | F7 | Bb | Bb D7+ |
> 
> (Ted's sub's)
> C7 | F7 | Bb | A7b9** D7 | Gm 
> 
> **You can also think of this chord as an Eb7.


It seems like you are recommened 1 of 2 sub options for the Bb (Bb D F) - A7b9 (A C# E G Bb) or Eb7 (Eb G Bb Db).  Those are two subs I wouldn't have thought of because they only have 1 tone in common with the original Bb (namely, the Bb).  But looking closer, I also see the movement of the 3rd (C# to D) and the 5th (E to F) as two 1/2 step changes which produce a nice motion.

By the way, A7b9 can be played like this - it's easier to think of it as a C#min b5 6 - but it's the same thing as A7b9 without the tonic
E-6 (Bb)
A-7 (E)
D-5 (G)
G-6 (C#)




> #2
> The original I wrote (from my sheet music)
> C7 | F7 | Bb | Bb D7+ |
> 
> (Ted's sub's)
> C7 - F7/B | BbMaj Cm6-Gb7 **| BbMaj/D


I like this line a lot too, but where did the BbMaj/D - I don't use major/minor 7ths too often I suppose.  For the Cm6 (C E G A) - Gb7 (Gb Bb Db E) sub replacing the D7+ (D F# A# C) - could you explain why you chose those chords?  I don't see the logic, though it sounds good.

@John, I often forget to get back to the source.  It's a good idea and I'll be listening through that more often.  It's actually nice because it slows it down from the Django style tempo.  thanks!

As Ted pointed out, maybe It Don't Mean a Thing is a band example.  What about Limehouse Blues instead?  It's a lot more open of a tune:

A part
C7 | % | % | % |
A7 | % | % | % |
G  | % | B7 | E- |
A7 | % | D7 | D7 Db7|

B part
C7 | % | % | % |
A7 | % | % | % |
G  | E7 | A- | % |
C-6 | D7 | G | G7 |

Usually during the head I'll double the solo lines on this but when I'm not soloing, I find the rhythm chords I'm playing are typically just the same chords in different voicings (i.e. playing an open position c7 for measure 1, first position for measure two etc but keeping all the same tones (C E G Bb)).  Other wise, I'll usually just hit two note chords as a "safe" play (i.e. subbin C7 with only the notes C G or E Bb etc).  Any suggestions for subbing?  Seems like taking the minb5b7 of the 3rd is always an option (i.e. subbing C7 with Eminb5b7) or the 7b9 of the 7th (i.e. subbing C7 with B7b9).  Any other ideas?

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## greg_tsam

This kind of reading makes my bluegrass mando brain hurt but I've been wanting to learn for a while.  Funny enough, once I see it on the fretboard it makes more sense than all the weird names.   :Cool:

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## mbruno

Hey Greg,

Theory is a lot of fun and is super helpful when you understand it in context with your instrument.  Said another way, I agree  :Smile: 

One thing I do now for trying to find substitutions is to find the melody note that I'm aiming for and then list a few chords that have that note in it.  Typically the chords that are in the key I'm playing in sound good.  For example, if the melody note is E and you're playing in C:

C - C E G
Am7 - A E C G
E7 - E G# B D
G6 - G B D E
G13 - G B D E A

All those chords are in the key of C and contain the E note.  I repeat this over for wherever I wanna make a change.

Then I write out a mandolin fret board on a sheet of paper and plot those notes on fretboard map.  Once that's done, I grab my mando and start trying things out.  Usually I'll start with trying to get an accending or decending bass note movement.

Least that's what I do now  :Smile:

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## mandroid

perhaps using diatonic harmonies,  intyervals  based on a couple notes of the arpeggio of the chord
 will do, since the guitars in the band  may be  doing the full chord, and bass holding down the root.

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## Don Stiernberg

not much to add here, but a couple tiny things may cause you to see things from a different angle...

 The D7 returning to Gm is part of a minor cadence. So that D7 can(should?) be altered: D7b9, D7#5,etc..one alteration begets another. On the mandolin D7b9 looks suspiciously like Ebdiminished. Hmmmmm...

 Along with that altered dominant, why not "set it up" with it's corresponding "two" chord from the harmonized minor scale? In this case that would be Am7b5. It yields a similar effect to the Eb7 doesn't it?

 In similar fashion you might include corresponding iim7 chords before dominants in the bridge. Those are major two five ones...
   Fm7-Bb7--Eb.  Gm7-C7-F7, then Am7b5-Dalt back to Gm

 I'm not sure these would qualify as "substitutions", since you're really leaving the original tonalities intact and just illustrating them in a different manner.

 You might also alter your dominants in the bridge, even though they are major cadences. This creates an almost "anything goes" scenario for the soloist. Always be careful here. A little goes a long way. the other rhythm players may not be hearing or playing the same alterations. Keep your radar on, or if you have to, talk to your bandmates!

 I wrote a column in Mandolin Magazine exploring Limehouse Blues in similar fashion.

Here's the aforementioned routes to try out on It Don't Mean a Thing...

  Gm-GmM7-Am7b5-D7b9-Gm (or Gm6 for the "Gypsy"cats)
    C7-F7-Bb6-Am7b5-D7+

 Bridge:
     Fm7-Bb7-Eb6  Gm7-C7-F7  Am7b5-D7b9#9b5#5(yikes!)

  or Fm7-E7-Eb   Gm7-Gb7-Cm7/F+  Am7b5-D7b9

 or  Fm7-Gm7-Ab-Bb+ Eb  C7-C13-C7b5-C735  F11-F7  D+

    or Bb7-Bb7b5-Eb   C7-C7b5- F9   D+


 oh wait, that D7b9 that looks like Eb diminished, did i really mean A diminished, or couldn't it be F#dim or Cdim? And the answer is...YES. I just like to call them according to what's in the neighborhood...(Eb is much closer to D)But when playing rhythm, if a harmonic situation allows for the use of a diminished voicing, and the tempo allows also, you can move in minor thirds(three frets) around the board..this can lend interest to the rhythm part, perhaps excite the soloist. Avoiding static voicings(staying in one place) is fun and cool, but again you'll need to have the radar on--if two or more players approach things that way it can get distracting quickly. But in the trio where the bass player and guitarist are chunking away, and the sound of the root is heard or assumed, splashing some other harmonic information around usually lends interest...

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## Don Stiernberg

not much to add here, but a couple tiny things may cause you to see things from a different angle...

 The D7 returning to Gm is part of a minor cadence. So that D7 can(should?) be altered: D7b9, D7#5,etc..one alteration begets another. On the mandolin D7b9 looks suspiciously like Ebdiminished. Hmmmmm...

 Along with that altered dominant, why not "set it up" with it's corresponding "two" chord from the harmonized minor scale? In this case that would be Am7b5. It yields a similar effect to the Eb7 doesn't it?

 In similar fashion you might include corresponding iim7 chords before dominants in the bridge. Those are major two five ones...
   Fm7-Bb7--Eb.  Gm7-C7-F7, then Am7b5-Dalt back to Gm

 I'm not sure these would qualify as "substitutions", since you're really leaving the original tonalities intact and just illustrating them in a different manner.

 You might also alter your dominants in the bridge, even though they are major cadences. This creates an almost "anything goes" scenario for the soloist. Always be careful here. A little goes a long way. the other rhythm players may not be hearing or playing the same alterations. Keep your radar on, or if you have to, talk to your bandmates!

 I wrote a column in Mandolin Magazine exploring Limehouse Blues in similar fashion.

Here's the aforementioned routes to try out on It Don't Mean a Thing...

  Gm-GmM7-Am7b5-D7b9-Gm (or Gm6 for the "Gypsy"cats)
    C7-F7-Bb6-Am7b5-D7+

 Bridge:
     Fm7-Bb7-Eb6  Gm7-C7-F7  Am7b5-D7b9#9b5#5(yikes!)

  or Fm7-E7-Eb   Gm7-Gb7-Cm7/F+  Am7b5-D7b9

 or  Fm7-Gm7-Ab-Bb+ Eb  C7-C13-C7b5-C735  F11-F7  D+

    or Bb7-Bb7b5-Eb   C7-C7b5- F9   D+


 oh wait, that D7b9 that looks like Eb diminished, did i really mean A diminished, or couldn't it be F#dim or Cdim? And the answer is...YES. I just like to call them according to what's in the neighborhood...(Eb is much closer to D)But when playing rhythm, if a harmonic situation allows for the use of a diminished voicing, and the tempo allows also, you can move in minor thirds(three frets) around the board..this can lend interest to the rhythm part, perhaps excite the soloist. Avoiding static voicings(staying in one place) is fun and cool, but again you'll need to have the radar on--if two or more players approach things that way it can get distracting quickly. But in the trio where the bass player and guitarist are chunking away, and the sound of the root is heard or assumed, splashing some other harmonic information around usually lends interest...

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Amy Burcham

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## Gerry Hastie

> This kind of reading makes my bluegrass mando brain hurt but I've been wanting to learn for a while.  Funny enough, once I see it on the fretboard it makes more sense than all the weird names.


Thanks Greg for articulating what I think is a common issue.  Jazz just sounds fierce but when you get into doing it on the fretboard it all makes sense and your bluegrass playing improves.  The Don Julin stuff for learning 3 note chords is excellent resource material for this whole question too.

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## Jean-Pierre WOOS

I often play with Gypsies guitar player (a chance to live in Belgium...).
To find an interesting fingering, I use to start from a dim7 chord (Gypsies like b3 !), then move only one finger to obtain the chord i have to play:
In this case, I start from G dim7/Bb: 3-2-4-3 (low --> high), I don't play it but I move one finger(here,the pinky) one fret higher to have 3-2-5-3, that is a G min6. Wow ! Gypsies are happy !
Then, I start from the same G dim7/Bb and I move one finger (now the forefinger) one fret down to have 3-1-4-3: it's a Eb7 !
To play the D7, I move that fingering one fret down.
For the next chord (Gm), I play G m7: 0-0-1-1. This way gives us a logical voicing AND the opportunity to play an F dim7 (1-0-2-1) to get the C7 (fingered from the same G dim7/B, moving the pinky one fret down: 3-2-3-3).
To play F7, I move two fingers one fret down: 2-1-3-3 = F9 (but it's a F# dim7/A with one finger one fret higher...). It allows to resolve on Bb (3-0-1-1).
Finally, to return to Gm, I play D7 5-4-5-5 (from A dim 7/C) and, why not 5-4-5-6 =D7 5+...

Summary:
G m6 : 3253 
Eb7: 3143 - D7: 2032
Gm7: 0011 - F dim7: 1021
C7: 3233 - (and, why not Cm7: 3133 between C7 and F9 ?)
F9: 2133
Bb: 3011
D7: 5455 -( D7 5+: 5456) 


It works and Gypsies like that !

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Rick Jones

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