# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Building a bowlback

## dave17120

One of my long standing dreams has been to build a bowlback mandolin. Over the last few years, I feel I have learnt enough by making my own instruments and repairing many bowlbacks, to at least make a start. I intend to put a record of my project on my site, but hope to follow it here also, and perhaps benefit from the enormous knowledge and talent 'in residence'.

  Problems: The biggest issue I feel I need to deal with, will be.....'How to build the bowl!' ...the rest will be similar to building a flatback, I guess. I have done a fair bit of research on this and discovered that they are built, either on a frame of some kind, or on a mould. With the exception of a superb site chronicling the building of an Oud, and Lundberg's book on lute construction, whose bowls are rather different from that of a mandolin, there is nothing on the net that really deals with the technical difficulties of bowl construction, and precious few phots even, of the process. I do have a plan for a bowl, but it is very simple, with only 7 ribs, and does not explain anything about construction at all.

  Resolutions: I have decided to build on a mould, and model it on a 1932 Embergher, since I have the superb set of Italian posters, providing enough detail to build a plan (I think). I have also decided to build a bowl on a frame, based on a Loveri that I played for several years.

  I have made a start, so I will try to organise some of the photos shortly. Regards to all, Dave

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## brunello97

Tally ho, hombre. I look forward to cheering your efforts on. You recall that during the halcyon days of the deMureda resurrection there was a concurrent thread that Brian Dean started viz his attempt at building an Embergher reproduction:

http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....duction

Lots of interesting information there and as I recall a breathless audience developed around his efforts. Best of luck to you and I hope you have the chance to keep us abreast of your process, product, mistakes and discoveries.

Mick

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## otterly2k

Dave... you should definitely read that thread and maybe even contact Brian Dean about his experience. I think he tabled it in order to attend to some other work. But I'm sure he'd be interested in passing on what he's learned from the process.
KE

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## Graham McDonald

The other thing to think about is the bend, or cant in the soundboard. As far as I can tell, most of the Italian builders bend the two halves of the soundboard, and then join them, rather than bending the whole width of the soundboard. Putting a transverse arch in makes the parts of the two soundboard below the bend want to overlap, so a small wedge has to be taken off each half before gluing together. The Calace site has a very interesting downloadable history/catalogue in PDF with some useful photos of how they go about it.

good luck

graham

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## MikeEdgerton

I always assumed that they built bowlbacks on a form or mold of some sort. I can't see how they would have done it otherwise.

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## Bill Snyder

If you read through the Brian Dean thread you will see some posts by Dave.

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## Jim Garber

Good luck, Dave -- I am sure you will do fine.

There is some discussion of a method for bowlback construction based on a mould similar to lute construction in Franz Jahnel's Manual of Guitar Technology. If you can't find that book I can scan the relevant pages for you, Dave. I guess the Lundberg bookm on Lute construction would be similar.

You might also contac some of the builders we know of, like Sr. Lippi of the Embergher poster (he has built at least one Embergher-style mandolin) and Daniel Larson. Hopefully tyhey could shed some light on construction techniques.

Jim

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## Bob A

There's an article in AMerican Luthiery by Lundberg that is worth the reading. He'd disassembled an old bowlback to determine the method used in forming the soundboard. One picture, 1000 words. But there are in fact many pictures.

I suspect you will find this a bit of a challenge. Nevertheless, you'll find us ready to hold your coat and encourage you to plunge ahead.

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## Eugene

I'll be watching.

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## dave17120

Wow, a formidable response. Thank you everyone for the input. 

I have been researching this off and on for about a year, and trying out some of the bits I will need to get sorted where possible on my repair mandolins. Here is a brief resume of where I am.

I was following Brian's thread, found his approach quite interesting, and learned a few things from his problems. Sad when he stopped naturally.

I have Lundberg's book and a copy of his article on bowlback building. (See next post)
If Franz Jahnel's Manual of Guitar Technology is a lot different from Lundberg's approach, I would be quite keen to see a copy, that's one I haven't got. (Many thanks for the offer Jim, I'll leave it you to decide whether it would be useful or not)

I also have copies of some discussions from MIMF on bowl building and repair, and JAMEEL ABRAHAM'S online OUD MAKING JOURNAL, which again was extremely interesting and useful.

AND I have had a good look at the Calace site.... oh to be a time traveller and go back and talk to some of these old masters?!?

I have also emailed Sr. Lippi, but as he only speaks Italian, and a little French, and as my French is probably not much better than his.... well, good intentions, but perhaps a non starter. (But his posters are great!!)

Similarly I emailed Daniel Larson, who was very encouraging, said that bowl building was perhaps the most difficult thing in luthiery, and wished me luck....... but was rather vague about his 'idiosyncratic technique'. Hmmmmmm?!? However I did feel that he might be disposed to help a bit if at some time I was stuck with a particular difficulty.

So, I'm fairly well clued up regarding available knowledge I think, and I've tried some of the techniques needed, its just now a question of putting it into practice.

Discussion of bending tops to follow shortly, regards to all, Dave

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## Fliss

Dave, I wish you success in following this dream. I, too, will follow this thread with interest. 

Fliss

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## dave17120

One of the problems that I have as yet to solve, as Graham identified, is the top construction. Having read Lundberg's article on bowlback construction, I am left wondering still. He seems to have looked at many older Italian luthiers. He has photos of the under-side of an instrument that definitively shows the top was assembled in two pieces, put onto the instrument separately, as the bend line does not line up. How much was this normal procedure? Or was it a technique that was outdated? How much did techniques evolve??? Is this the only/best way to go???

I have had the tops off many old Italian instruments, though most more modern (19/20th C) than those looked at by Lundberg, and have found little evidence to suggest the top was assembled in this way. All have a lateral dome, and a majority, but not all, have a thin 'slice' cut from the lower half. (See chart below)

More crucially, almost all have a small piece or strip beneath the top to re-enforce the join. I can't decide if this means they are more or less likely to have been pre-assembled or not!! Besides this, I have some old, unused, mando tops from the eastern seaboard of the States, that are in various stages of completion..... all are assembled, some with the bend line marked, some with it burnt into the underside, but none with a slice missing in the lower half. These are all old, presumably from a Italian-American maker, perhaps early 20thC. This is in fact very similar to the old German bowls, which only have a very slight dome, and no 'slice' cut out, the dome effectuated by the slightly curving braces.

Maker	    Cut out
Silvestri	Y
Ricordo	    Y
Stridente1	Y
Stridente 2	Very slight
Tonelli	    Very slight
De Mureda	Non evident
Salomone	Very large
Albertini	Y
Gandolfi	Y
Zanoni	    Non evident
Santoni	    Non evident
Rinaldi 1	Non evident
Rinaldi 2	Y
De Meglio	Y
Valpaglia	Very slight
Puglisi	    Very slight
Ussano	    Non evident
Loveri	    Non evident
Colombo	    Y

Well that's where I am. As yet I haven't tried to build a canted top for an old mando yet, maybe its something I shall have to try. My feeling is that assembling before gluing on makes more sense, perhaps gluing the half above the bend first, then applying the struts, to start the lateral dome, and finally gluing the half below.

Any thoughts greatly welcomed, regards, Dave

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## Graham McDonald

I entirely sympathise with your thinking on this, as there seems to be a variety of approaches which, if not conflicting, certainly don't point to a standard way of building a canted top. In the Calace catalogue there is an interesting picture (annoyingly small and low rez)of a worker in the factory planing the edge of half an already bent soundboard, as though getting ready to join it. Without it being clamped or glued to the transverse braces or a former to give it the arch, how could you know how much to take off the section below the cant so it would join up neatly. Maybe they did so many of them they just 'knew'? 

Another question is how much cant. I have only measured a few, but there is a lot of variation, from around 7 degrees, up to around 12. I am working on 10 as an average, but I am very open to suggestions.

I suspect the re-enforcing strip down the middle below the cant is a way of simply holding the join together as they might well have found from experience that it difficult to get that join exactly right.

Over the next few weeks I am going to be making a couple of canted tops, one joined before canting and the other canted, then joined. I have done the first type before and I know it works, but you do end up with the edges humping up a little between the cant and the centre join. 

I am still working on how to be able to clamp two bent soundboard halves together while gluing at least one transverse brace at the same time. I will post some pics of the setup once it is done.

cheers

graham

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## dave17120

Hi Graham, I shall be watching your results with interest. Obviously, if I try any dry runs, I'll post results here too.

The above 'table' is part of a survey I have been compiling on the bowls I have been restoring...... there is more that was not relavent above, including some info on the angle of the cant. I'll try and sort it out into some sort of presentable form.

Another problem relative to the top that I thought of, was any inlay work, soundhole, scratchplate etc. Obviously it would be easier to do it 'in the flat' before bending the top, but then any work must be bent as the top bends?!? Hmmmmmmmmmm?!

Its funny, how whenever you think you are beginning to get to grips with a problem, other issues seem to suggest themselves, and you end up with even more questions.

Regards, Dave

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## JeffD

I have always thought it amazing that a bowlback stays together. To my rudimentary understanding it would seem that all the stresses involved could never be balanced and stabilized.

But you must understand I couldn't pour rainwater from a boot with the instructions written on the heel.

I wish you lots of luck and look forward to seeing your results. I would like to see bowlbacks de-mystified, and more luthiers jumping in.

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## Graham McDonald

Some observations and pics from bending a couple of soundboards

I started off with a joined, thicknessed (to 3mm) and cut out soundboard and two unjoined soundboard halves thicknessed to around 3.3-3.4mm. I used a StewMac fretslot cutting saw with a depth guide to cut about half way through each piece. This wasn't really a wide enough slot to allow the 10 degree bend I put in so it needed a bit of widening in the middle of the bneding process. A Dremel with a V shaped milling bit would be a better way, I think.

I bent them over my smallest pipe (around 3/4") and checked them with a sliding bevel set to 10 degrees. Sprayed water on both sides a few times and a little bit of surface spliting on the outside of bend itself, which I think could have been avoided by the groove being a bit deeper, maybe getting towards 2/3 of the thickness, but I would worry about sanding the top then! The centre glue join on the full soundboard did open up on the inside only for a few mm either side of the bend.

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## Graham McDonald

The hot pipe setup

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## Graham McDonald

The bent soundboard

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## Graham McDonald

This is the prejoined soundboard clamped to a transverse brace of 15' radius. This is pretty shallow for a neapolitan mandolin which often have much more radical curvature across their soundboards. The good news is that the area below the bend does not distort because of putting the 15' curve in.

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## Graham McDonald

A shot of the inside, showing the scorching from the pipe

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## Graham McDonald

Now the bad news. I have a more radical curve I copied of an Italian flatback a while ago, so I clamped to two unshaped halves to that. The extra curvature means that the bottom sections do definately want to overlap and some trimming would be necessary. A cradle that held the soundboard half, bent to the transverse curve would have to be made, so a straight, glueable edge could be planed and then glued using a rope and wedges technique, but with curved slats.

cheers

graham

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## dave17120

Hi Graham, some good stuff there. The only thing I'm not entirely certain about is the 15' radius. If I understand correctly, the curve is measured as though it were a section cut out of a 15' circle?!? I'm not sure I can imagine the old Italian luthiers working it out that precisely???

I have been working on what you said earlier...
" how could you know how much to take off the section below the cant so it would join up neatly........"

I have the top off an old Silvestri at the moment, so I decided to use the bowl to measure the effect of different domes on the overlap of the 2 sides below the cant.
I made some mock-up struts, but purely by eye, to reflect domes of 6, 7, 8 and 9mm on the 3rd strut, which I guess is the one that is going to affect the overlap the most.

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## dave17120

I fitted the struts in to the existing strut seatings, making sure that they fit flush with the sides.

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## dave17120

Next I cut out a top in thin card, the same size as the true top. I used thin card so that I could overlap it and mark the overlap easily. I taped it to the top, and fitted each domed strut in turn, marking the overlap each time.

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## dave17120

On this bowl, for a length of 11mm (cant to tail) and for struts 200mm in length, the results were as follows........

6mm dome at the centre line, 1.5mm overlap at the tail.
7mm dome at the centre line, 2.5mm overlap at the tail.
8mm dome at the centre line, 3.25mm overlap at the tail.
9mm dome at the centre line, 4.5mm overlap at the tail.

Its not much, and I haven't worked out what this would be in degrees, but I think you are right, it would be difficult to build this type of domed top without serious warping without an overlap.
I will have to have a look at a couple of German bowls next, because they don't show any signs of this cut-out, but then they are not domed to the same extent.
The tops I have from the States are from old bowls I think, and are fully joined. 

How to decide whether an overlap is actually necessary, in view of the problems involved?!!?
All for now, Dave

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## Martin Jonas

I can't think of where else to post this, but I saw something a few days ago that may be of interest to our intrepid reconstructors. Another player in our group is in the process of restoring a Catania-made bowlback mandola (can't remember the maker, but it may have been Capelli) and he brought it to rehearsal with its fretboard off. I noticed that while the soundboard had a central glue joint, there was no joint at all between the soundboard and the neck: the two halves of the soundboard continued as single pieces of wood all the way up the neck to the nut! In effect, the neck had a sandwich structure: ebony fretboard, then spruce soundboard, and only then the neck proper, the inside of which couldn't be seen but presumably was (as usual) a single piece of softwood for the neck and the neckblock, plus a thin hardwood veneer.

Martin

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## Graham McDonald

I think it is going to come down to how much doming you want or need on the soundboard. I have been using a 15' radius curve because it is a pretty standard curve that most guitar builders use for back bracing. Over a 200mm brace it is only a 1mm dome, so not nearly as radical as your 6-9mm. I am going to use it on a flatbacked mandolin and see how it goes. If anyone has one of the canted top Martin mandolins it would be useful to know how much doming is across their soundboards

The other curve has a dome of 5mm over 200mm (I sure there is some mathmatical way of working out the radius from that). I will see If I can put together a cradle to plane it straight next weekend

It would be good to have some idea of the thinking behind the soundboard doming and the size of the braces on the old Italian mandolins. Perhaps to allow for climatic variation and to keep them together for as long as possible. 

cheers

graham

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## Dave Cohen

Jon Sevy had an article a while back in _American Lutherie_ on the equations for generating segments of circles) from the lengths of the chords. Don'r remember the exact issue, but you can look it up on the GAL website.

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## Graham McDonald

Thanks, Dave

I knew I had seen one somewhere!

cheers

graham

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## brunello97

Graham, Here's the formula we used back when we were laying out all those crop-circles in the UK.....


r = (m² + ¼c²)/2m

Using this equation with your numbers the radius would be 252.5mm. There may be other equations the Druids were using before us or perhaps others interesting and useful. 

Mick

Check this with the diagram below:

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## Graham McDonald

I checked Issue 58 of AL and Sevy's formula is a little different

r= m2 [squared] + (d/2) 2[squared] divided by 2m which works out at a radius of 1002mm for my 5mm difference over 200mm.

Might explain something about the crop circles  

cheers

graham

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## dave17120

Some interesting information there.... I'm not sure my byline shouldn't have been learning all the time!!

And I forgot to mention with the above trials, the ORIGINAL dome on the instrument (its not me being radical here) was 8mm over the 200mm strut length, and the cant (which of course will affect the overlap) was at 13.5 degrees. That seems fairly typical, but I will be checking some others.

Graham: "It would be good to have some idea of the thinking behind the soundboard doming and the size of the braces on the old Italian mandolins. Perhaps to allow for climatic variation and to keep them together for as long as possible."

I'm collecting information at the moment, each time I take a top off, to try and get some sort of sense of this. But at present I think it would be safe to say, usually 2, often 3 domed struts; usually not parallel (angles vary); 5-7mm thick; with an apparently infinite variety of profiles. More later, I hope. Dave[I]

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## dave17120

And something completely different........ and I'm fully expecting someone to say here, 'oh you should have done it this way its much easier...'

I have been working on moulds frames upon which to construct the bowl of this project. I have the excellent posters that give me the profile for the 1932 Embergher, but I want to build a Loveri style bowl as well. Here is my solution to measuring the profile of the bowl. 
I took measurements from the side, and the top, every 2cms along the length of the bowl, with a steel rule...... not 100% accurate, but I am hoping any sloppiness on my part will be evened out by the overall line sof the curvatures. Here's hoping anyway.
Dave

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## dave17120

OOps, no photo... here it is.

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## brunello97

Rene 'Graham' Descartes,

The two formulas, when properly utilized (which I did not do-my math and spelling always justifiably suspect) yield the same result ~1002. I was thinking 252 seemed too small but it was kind of late.-I think I must have quartered your chord length before squaring it.... It should probably read

r= (M2 + C2/4) / 2M

BTW I'm assuming the D in your/Sevy's formula is the same as C in the Druids' formula?

Interestingly, formZ a 3-modeler I use, has the same circle generating function. ACAD might as well but it is over on the office machine.

And speaking of 3D-Dave you are going Durer (cubed)! You are truly a renaissance man.

Mick

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## Graham McDonald

The question that no-one seems to know the answer for is how much arch is needed in the braces for a canted top mandolin. It is certainly looking as though a 6mm rise over 200mm will need specific shaping of the soundboard join, but is a 6mm arch needed structurally or tonally? The probem with most bowlback mandolins is not collapse of the soundboard but shifting in the neck/body join. 

Is there a typical arch on an Emberger or Calace mandolin that might be considered a benchmark that was done for a specific acoustic reason, or is it just 'magic box' making, where it was done because that was the way it was always done, and no-one has ever asked why.

I have posted a question about the transverse arch on Martin cant-top mandolins in the Vintage section, and while lots of people have looked at it, no-one has yet come up with any answers. Dave Cohen posted something recently about resonances of Gibson vs bowlback mandolins which might illuminate the discussion a little.

Just thinking on a cold winter's morning

cheers

graham

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## dave17120

I understand that the maximum dome height on an Embergher to be about 1.5mm, (according to the posters!!) but I guess this could vary between models.

Also, there is generally MUCH less of a dome on some of the German bowlbacks, some of which are quite highly rated. On these also, I have not seen evidence of a piece being removed from below the cant.

I guess there needs to be enough of a dome to help resist the pressure from the strings thro the bridge, (on the Embergher, not enormous) but surely this must also relate to the thickness of the tone bars as well?!

I wonder, does a greater dome mean lighter tone bars, and if so, would this produce better vibrations. I'll have to keep measuring the old bowls.

Having said all that, why did Loar (or who ever??) create carved tops, if not to get the doming??? Presumably because the doming was beneficial to the sound.

I guess this is why luthiery is an art, not just a craft. Dave

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## Graham McDonald

I think you might be discounting the role of the cant itself in stiffening the soundboard to resist the downwards pressure of the bridge and strings. Putting that bend in the timber, combined with some degree of arching from the braces, makes a very stiff structure. In the same way that braces in a carved soundboard are there as much for tonal production as structural reasons, I think the two or three transverse braces on a canted top do a similar job (open to arguement on that one)

If the Embergher plan shows a 1.5mm dome, and that can be done with a prejoined soundboard without too much distortion below the cant, that is a much simpler way to build it and you should go for it.

Good luck with the project

cheers

graham

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## Bob A

I can't help but believe that the arched belly is one more artifice which aids in the strengthening/lightening of the Italian bowlback design.

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## dave17120

They certainly are lighter than the Germans, thats for sure..... and I guess lighter vibrates better.

As to the cant...... I hope I'm not discounting it. I am sure the cant restists the downward pressure longitudinally. Something like this I guess.... #Dave

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## dave17120

Also, thought you might be interested in this one.........

 #.....its the most definite evidence I have yet found, that shows some builders glued the top on in 2 halves.
The picture shows that the cant has been bent separately with heat, and not been lined up underneath.

I guess this in turn means that all the sound hole inlay bits must have been done after the top was fitted. 

I'm going to try and fit a new top to this one, rather than try and save this. But I'm definitely going to do inlay work and the likes FIRST. I suppose that implies I must join first, at least up to the cant.

I'll keep you posted. Dave

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## labraid

Neat. I'll see if I can't get back on mine soon.

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## dave17120

Ok, referring back to the 'cage' above..... I have started to construct the frame on which I hope to construct a Loveriesque bowl, and the form/mold on which I hope to build the Embergheresque one. I use the '...esque' freely, as I intend to concentrate on the construction of a sound bowl, rather than a completely faithful copy of the models in question.

Here is the frame on which the Embergher will go, giving me at least lateral and depth profiles.

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## dave17120

I then roughed out the body of the mold in 'slices' from the profiles shown on the posters. I decided to use MDF rather than soild wood, in case this all goes wrong, and the MDF was lying around. Whether I will regret not using 'real' wood remains to be seen!!

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## dave17120

Now I just have to sand and file to shape.

Meantime I have been trying to decide how best to assemble a useful frame for the loveri-style bowl. My first thought was as sections from a 'sliced loaf' linked together by some longitudinal sections. To this end I have assembled the 'loaf, based on the cage measurements...

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## dave17120

I'm hoping to clamp the whole lot together and sand/file to shape, then take out some slices and add some longitudinal sections to hold it all together.

However, since starting on this frame, it has occurred to me that once I start clamping ribs on to it, the breatest pressures will be downwards, and having the bulk of the supporting frame running laterally, may be a mistake, and leave me with a rippled effect along the lengthe of the bowl.

My current thinking is that longitudinal ribs, held by fewer lateral sections might be a safer option......... which is not too much of a problem, as I will still be able to use some of what has already been done as the lateral supports. Hmmmmmmmm???

Well more later, I am off to England for a couple of weeks as my father in law is ill, so I'll get back to this in due course. Dave

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## Jim Garber

Lorenzo Lippi sent me a few photos of a 5 bis Embergher mandolin he is working on and I figure this would be a good place to post them. I think he lurks here but he says his English is not too good to post. Too bad. He could definitely add to this thread.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here's another of the bowl with the lining in.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Top with braces, early stage.
Jim

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## Jim Garber

and another with braces shaped

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## Martin Jonas

Thanks a lot Jim. That answers one question posed in Brian's earlier thread on Embergher replicas: Lorenzo at least puts the woodshavings lining in _after_ assembling the bowl, rather than covering the mold in them and then glueing the individual staves onto the lining.

Martin

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## Graham McDonald

Jim, 
Can you ask him, at what point does he bend the soundboard - before or after the two halves are joined?

thanks

graham

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## Alex Timmerman

> Lorenzo Lippi sent me a few photos of a 5 bis Embergher mandolin he is working on
> 
> Jim


Hi Jim and others, 

Not that it matters a whole lot, but the photos of the interior of Lorenzo Lippi's 5bis shown here are not that of a 5bis _mandolin_. 
These are images of the very same 5bis mandola that Lorenzo Lippi made for Helma Ruitenberg, one of the mandola players of Het CONSORT.

The Lippi 5bis Roman Mandola is wonderful in every sence; since it was finished it has 'grown' into an excellent sounding instrument. The tone is strong and penetrating, and all the same warm and full. And with a playability that is just superb!
The mandola is still developing its character; for the bowl and in particular the soundboard 'settles' under the pressure of the strings. This takes time and sofar it just turned out to be just wonderful in every sence.

A development that is very interesting to observe with new instruments. It was also witnessed last year when I examined Lorenzo Lippi's No.3 Orchestra Mandolin (the one of the poster) in Cremona at the Cremona Mondo Musica fair and a month or so later again, together with Sebastiaan de Grebber in Arpino. That mandolin didn't only look like a genuine Luigi Embergher Mandolin Model 3; it also sounded like one! # #


In the (near) future you all will be updated on the work of Lorenzo Lippi, for he will make all the concert instruments of the mandolin family for us. 


I am very convident that the manufacture of the instruments of the Roman mandolin family in Italy, there where it came to a halt in the 1980-ties with the last examples made by Pasquale Pecoraro, now is continued in all its glory with the excellent work of Maestro Lorenzo Lippi.


Greetings,

Alex


Photo of Helma Ruitenberg with her Lorenzo Lippi 5Bis Roman Concert Mandola

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## Jim Garber

> Originally Posted by  (jgarber @ July 28 2007, 08:40)
> 
> Lorenzo Lippi sent me a few photos of a 5 bis Embergher mandolin he is working on
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> Hi Jim and others, 
> 
> Not that it matters a whole lot, but the photos of the interior of Lorenzo Lippi's 5bis shown here are not that of a 5bis _mandolin_.


Thanks, Alex, for the clarification. Man, I need to learn Italian!!

Jim

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## labraid

Jim, those photos are a Godsend. Bravo!
Now editing my post because the answer became obvious. How about the different colour burn marks. Look like a separate bend for each half. Phew.
Anyhow, fabulous stuff there. 
How much is M. Lippi charging for his mandolins these days?
If anyone were to have one of his in this thread, at the moment?
Can anyone decipher if the grain on that soundboard patch (under theoretical bridge) is running perpendicular or parallel to the soundboard grain?

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## labraid

oh, and it might not be the most convenient in the world, but if M. Lippi wanted to write here in French (we chatted very briefly on the purchase of his posters), he'd have at least one very willing translator for the group.

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## John Zimm

> oh, and it might not be the most convenient in the world, but if M. Lippi wanted to write here in French (we chatted very briefly on the purchase of his posters), he'd have at least one very willing translator for the group.


Bonne idee. Un peu des gens ici peut lire francais. (a little bit anyway)


This is a fascinating thread even for non-builders, by the way.

-John.

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## Jim Garber

> oh, and it might not be the most convenient in the world, but if M. Lippi wanted to write here in French (we chatted very briefly on the purchase of his posters), he'd have at least one very willing translator for the group.


I just heard from Lorenzo and he has been reading this thread. he says he will have one of his kids post in English some pertinent info later. At the moment he is on vacation.

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

Mr. Lorenzo Lippi had send me (and Jim) this e-mail some days ago in which he points out that he is teaching instrument making for nearly 30 years now - currently as one of the professors for antique plucked instruments at the Civica Scuola di Liuteria in Milan - and that he is happy to answer every question about the construction of the instruments under discussion here. 
Because there were some questions about his instruments and the making of mandolins in general, he asked to translate the content of his mail for you:


_
To construct the bowl I (mr. Lippi) operate in the following way: 

- On the mould the base block and block of the neck are mounted. The ribs are placed starting from the exact centre (if an uneven number of ribs is required) or two in the centre (if an equal number is required) and then these are glued from this point one to right and one on the left until #the shell is completed. 

- Then the end clasp is glued together with the two outer border strips (if the bowl is made of maple wood ebony wood is used for these border strips). Now the moment is reached to extract the bowl from the mould in order to glue the inner border strips (if these [for the type of mandolin under construction] are necessary) and the wood shavings to reinforce the inside of the bowl. 

- I first fold the two halves of the soundboard and then glue them together, but other mandolin makers do the contrary (first they glue them together and then they fold the complete soundboard): it depends on the technique that is used in order to achieve the right [radius] curve of the soundboard. 

- The vein of the braces at the soundboard is in right angles (orthogonal) to that of the soundboard: similar to what is used in modern guitars. The vein parallel to the soundboard was used in lutes and some antique mandolins, but not in these [modern] instruments, as far as is known. 

- For Dave: Sometimes I also use MDF in order to realize moulds, especially when I have very detailed information and drawings that require a technically specified mould. The traditional technique is different, but it does not really matter: I also realize copies from moulds in glass fibre... 

- Mr. Lippi goes on telling that he is willing to share info and photos (after so many years of instruction...) of the mould he is making for he has no secrets to defend. If there are any special requests mr. Lippi is happy to make some photographs especially for those who ask. 


Then mr. Lippi continues with something I think could be of great interest for restorers, luthiers, students and others with interest in mandolin construction and making. When there is enough interest in the construction of mandolin, and in particular that of the building of the Roman Mandolin, mr. Lippi likes to propose to the Embergher Cerrone Museum of Arpino (Italy) to realize a small Summer course on the construction of the Roman mandolin.
This can of course only be realized when enough people like to participate: so if the friends of Mandolin café are interested, let us know! 

After the holiday mr. Lippi will try, with the help of one of his children, to be more involved here at the message board of the Mandolin café and answer directly in English._

So far the mail by mr. Lorenzo Lippi.


Best greetings,

Alex 

PS. Here is a photo of the Mandolin Chamer Orchestra HET CONSORT together with Victor Kioulaphides and Jim Garber. Jim is holding the 5bis Roman Mandola build by mr. Lorenzo Lippi after our concert in New York.

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## Jim Garber

Thanky you, Alex, for posting that photo. I thought I was there. Actually I had a blast. I wish I could have spent some more time with you folks. 

Next time...

Jim

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim,

Yes, I agree, everything went by far to quick! 
But as things look now The CONSORT will certainly be back in the future, for we have already been invited to give more concerts in your wonderful country. And then we will stay longer!


Best greetings and thanks again, 

Alex

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## labraid

> When there is enough interest in the construction of mandolin, and in particular that of the building of the Roman Mandolin, mr. Lippi likes to propose to the Embergher Cerrone Museum of Arpino (Italy) to realize a small Summer course on the construction of the Roman mandolin.
> This can of course only be realized when enough people like to participate: so if the friends of Mandolin café are interested, let us know!


Did everyone see this?

Thank you Alex, and thank you Mr Lippi for your time in writing. _I would be there in a heartbeat if the Embergher summer course ends up happening._

We'll probably all have lots of questions soon. Thank you for your offer! The world is in shortage of those so willing to openly share detailed methods for the better common good...

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## brunello97

Hmmm, Summer of '08? If so, Alex, count me as interested.

Mick

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## dave17120

Hello all out there......... no, I'm not dead?!? Back from UK and trying to catch up on things..... not least the garden, but got to go back shortly, father in law due for an operation. I will get back to the mandolin when the dust settles a bit. 
Nice to see Mr Lippi is involved, I have some questions when I get sorted..... I'll try and post in French and English. And as to the course (Alex?!?) I am definitely interested, but would need a few details. Any in the offing perhaps?
Regards to all, Dave

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## delsbrother

> Top with braces, early stage.
> 
> 
> 
> Jim


(Just getting to this thread now) What a great jig! Takes care of positon, angle, clamping, and radius, all at once and without fuss.

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