# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  Kentucky brand mandolins

## Pam2

Here on forums (and in other parts of the world) we keep hearing about Kentucky mandolins. Be it an A model or,varying f-models we got some built here by this guy some there by that guy and so on.... Whats all the hype?
Im seriously asking because I do not know! We all know about Gibsons in the mandolin world, Martins in the guitar world, John Deere in the tractor world so what Im asking is just where does a Kentucky rate? Now before you fly me back an answer keep in mind no one should diss anyone elses equipment (either by choice or economic standpoint) but Im still wanting an honest answer on this issue because
I own a pair of them myself

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## catmandu2

If it is a pair of Kentucky mandos you own, then you should be aware that they're among the best low-budget mandos on the market.

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## Stephen Perry

Kentucky is a brand name owned by Saga Music. Saga has the instruments built overseas at various places. As to hype, I'm not sure what you mean.

I don't see excessive publicity and any resulting commotion, just normal discussions. I don't see exaggerated or extravagant claims in Saga's advertising, at least no more than in anyone else's. No "hype job." I see no advertising or promotional ploy except supporting product changes. I don't see anything deliberately misleading. 

As to rank, they're a well thought of brand of modestly priced mandolins built by independent suppliers and imported from overseas, with the usual intermittent changes, upgrades, improvements, shifts in production place and method, and so on. In general I look at companies that start or become vertically integrated as having a better chance of generating a consistent line through time. I believe Saga is moving the Kentucky brand in that direction with either ownership or direct control of production for some of the Kentucky models. That should ideally increase their informal "rank." By vertical integration, let's contrast a US maker who distributes only directly to the public with a bulk wholesaler shipping retailers a wide range of brands they simply buy overseas and distribute. The former is completely vertically integrated with complete control, the latter has no control except selection and is not integrated. Most companies are somewhere in between. I believe Saga was in that in between state, providing specifications and negotiating with manufacturers to produce their products. I see this as inferior to those owning their own production facilities. Thus I'd rank Kentucky below Eastman in far east production and Gibson and Weber in domestic production. In my mind, the move to direct control in production of some of their Kentucky models moves the brand up in ranking. The quality and performance of those particular instruments has indeed risen from my evaluation and from the discussion here. The increased integration has brought immediate rewards. 

I suspect the same things happen with other industries.

Perhaps you'd care to explain what you intended by use of the word "hype." That might trigger more focused discussion.

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## Ken Berner

Should be no hype, with the exception of the higher-end KM-1000 and KM-1500 and Dawg models built in Japan in the '80s. They were built by a master luthier, I believe, and highly regarded.

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## John Flynn

This message board gets a lot questions that are versions of, "What is the best X mandolin under Y dollars?" This kind question is truly unanswerable, almost like a Zen koan. But people still attempt to answer these questions and the answers are very often the Kentucky models, because they are decent entry level instruments that look more or less like famous instruments and are readily available at relatively low prices. I do think they are generally a cut above the other Asian-made brands at comparable prices in tone, playability and quality.

BTW, I've noticed the typical answers to these questions have changed over the years. The answers used to be something like "get a Mid-Mo," or "look on the used market," which I think represent better advice, but people need their "looks," even for under $500, so I guess it's just easier just to say "Kentucky."

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## gnelson651

The hype changes as new models comes out.

 When I first joined this board, the big talk for low end mandolins (anything under $1,500) was Michael Kelly or Mid-Mo. Then Eastman was the next big-bang-for-the buck.

 You still see die hard owners of above mentioned mandos keep the hype fire alive. My observation is that most people will suggest what they own because that is their experience and to validate their choice.

Now the hype you see are JBovier, Jade or Kentucky.

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## earthsave

> Should be no hype, with the exception of the higher-end KM-1000 and KM-1500 and Dawg models built in Japan in the '80s. They were built by a master luthier, I believe, and highly regarded.


Exactly.

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## Celtic Saguaro

I generally agree with Glenn above. Many people who've bought something are only going to tell you how great it is, unless they've bought a real stinker.

From personal experience the MKs were a bit over-rated once the price started going up. Mid-Mo's being flat-top are a different animal from an arch top, so comparison is a bit tricky. #For instance, that style is more likely to sound better to the player, and, without a pickup, be quieter for anyone else listening. Eastmans are indeed better than the run-of-the-mill Asian-built instruments used to be, no question about it. But if what we hear is true that standard may now be higher than it used to be just a year or two ago. #Also with the recent price increases there isn't a huge advantage for an Eastman over, say, a Breedlove. I haven't tried a Bovier, a Jade or one of the newest Kentuckys.

Listening to what others say is fine as long a you take it with a grain of salt. Back when I started playing in the 70s, it was tougher to hear from mandolin players who were interested in anything, but bluegrass. #Consequently, you'd rarely hear anyone say much encouraging about an oval-holed mandolin. Even the old Gibson A-styles were looked on by most people in the magazines as just something to learn on till you could get something better. #Things are much better now with the internet. You can hear about bowlbacks without people snickering. You can hear people who know the Gibson F-5 sound doesn't fit with what they are trying to play, as well as from people who wouldn't play anything else.

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## Ken Olmstead

I think the KM1000 issued recently created a lot of "hype" or excitement because of the liniage connected to the Sumi built Japanese versions, which are held in high regard for good reason. The thread with the "Scruggs" model and the rumors of the KM1500 being put out is also pretty exciting for the same reasons. I played a new KM1000 locally, and it had a loud, bold voice and I thought that 6 months of playing would make it an insane value!! The really new 250 that I played from China is so much better in sound and playability than my Korean made one that it is tempting to upgrade my Mexico mandolin! I think Stephen Perry is right (great guy to buy from by the way..shameless plug) if I understand the vertical integration thing, Kentucky has had consistancy issues over the years which have resulted in exceptional mandolins (at any price) and standard import quality with the normal issues that accompany them. I certainly don't look down on anyone that plays a Kentucky, I know several amazing players that play them by choice. I often consider banking 5 grand and picking up that paint pealing KM1000 myself!!

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## Pam2

Well I see I struck a chord (pardon the pun) with some of you and spurred useful response in yet others. Rephrasing
my question and using any other description but hype would
not have produced the responses I got from you artists and those relying on sales. I assure you its my goal too to see a mandolin in every hand I can too.Those who have thousands and those who do not "just sell them what you can" is that how it is? Every single instrument is unique and theres a lemon in your Weber,Gibson,Gilchrist,Eastman,Kentucky and any other line out there just as there is with the vehicle manufacturers. I know what sounds good and what doesn't. I do in fact own a pair of Kentuckys (A&F) and they are no exception to the inconsistency found all across todays market in any category. Slap it together/box it up/out the door, thats the mentality worldwide and most of you should be able to agree on that. 
In effort to elaborate on my initial question let me say this, I heard my instruments, then played my instruments before I bought my instruments. I based my decision to buy my instruments based on thier performance (though short term acquaintance) I didn't bother
to go home first and research here or anywhere else as to whether or not it was made by this guy or that guy here, there or, anywhere. I still haven't done that because I don't care as long as my instruments are still working with and for me. I honestly posted this question because I have seen "hype" as I choose to call for this brand. And just where else could I get such diversity in answer to this question than right here???? Should I call someone relying on instrument sales and ask them? - no Should I get
ahold of the manufacturer and ask them? - no. I posed this question to the "artists" (majority) who have a steeply higher tendancy to give a straight up answer. If I knew the
answer I wouldn't have asked the question. And I do appologize for those offended by my poor focus on this topic

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## Stephen Perry

Well, asking a different question in a different way will certainly result in different responses!

"Those who have thousands and those who do not "just sell them what you can" is that how it is?""

That's not at all how it is. Cognizant dealers select what they sell quite carefully and explain what they have well and objectively. Placing a line of mandolins on a wall and watching what people actually buy proves rather interesting. That's how I decide what to restock. I strongly suspect that's a routine method. I'll also not carry things I don't like the looks of inside. 

"Every single instrument is unique and theres a lemon in your Weber,Gibson,Gilchrist,Eastman,Kentucky and any other line out there just as there is with the vehicle manufacturers." 

I love the lemons. I can generally get them in on trade quite inexpensively and then turn them around. Everyone wins. The original owner gets rid of something that doesn't work, the manufacturer doesn't have a dud circulating. Of course, some players seem to specialize in taking good instruments and turning them into temporary duds. I'm not sure how that happens!

" Slap it together/box it up/out the door, thats the mentality worldwide and most of you should be able to agree on that."

I strongly disagree. The customers - the retailers mind you - are much more demanding in terms of quality, consistency, and marketability than ever before. The result is greater performance and variety at a wide range of price points. For me, Kentucky mandolins didn't do the job. They rethought the product, changed the product, increased quality control, and I've started handling them again. They're clearly focused on improvement. As is every single other brand owner I know. They love feedback and improvement. So I think you're quite off base. At least in my limited experience in the trade off and on over the last 15 years. 

"I honestly posted this question because I have seen "hype" as I choose to call for this brand."

How do you define "hype"? I listed what I see on Wikepedia, in dictionaries, and the like. I don't see that with Kentucky. I see owners puffing their instrument, but that's typical to justify the purchase. 

I think you'd be surprised at the number of straight answers you'll get privately from those in the trade. Best to ask about specific models. In most brands I consider some models quite a value and others not. And in talking with others, I believe most are looking at brands that way.

Performers don't evaluate instruments the same way as pure retailers and probably differently from those familiar with making instruments. I always poke around inside and won't carry instruments where I don't like what I see inside. Performers vary in their needs, skill at evaluation, and their motives, too.

That I don't regularly carry something doesn't mean I don't like it. I like Breedlove, but it isn't the line for my environment. 

I like Kentucky pretty well. There are a few models I'll start carrying routinely if I expand to a walk-in venue. I'll continue to carry Eastman, consider one of the other low to mid lines, and see what I can do to pick up a big label brand. Like the retailers I know I'll continue to sell what I believe in and avoid slamming brands I don't carry. I know some people have asked me why I don't like X or Y brand when all I do is not carry them. That's a silly way to think. Small retailers can't carry every brand!
Any other questions?

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## Steve Ostrander

I have an Eastman md615 and a KY km855. The Eastman surpasses the KY in fit and finish, and overall sound. Having said that, there is something that I like about the sound of the KY, especially in the bass tones. There is a woodiness there that I don't usually find in Pac Rim models less than 1K. I've had it about 2 months and I'm hoping it will open up some.

Also had an MK. The fit and finisih on the MK also surpassed the KY. It had nice big frets which I prefer, and better tuners that kept in tune. But it just didn't have the tone I was looking for, so I let it go. I think the top was too thick. It sure was pretty, though.

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lflngpicker

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## f5loar

I look at the cafe here as our version of Consumer Reports on line. You won't find this kind of mandolin review anywhere else or least I've not found a source. So just like Consumer Reports says the newly designed Toyota XX is the best bang for the buck you'd be a fool to think it was as good a car as say the BMW 750Li. Same here, what the hype here is about the new KM1000 and how this appears by most of us here who have one think this is the best bang for the buck today. I've not heard about other models by KY. While last year Eastman 615,815 were the best bang for the buck this new KM1000 is getting better reviews then the Eastman did last year. It's got better quality, as good as Eastman on materials but tends to have a better sound quality and better playability and it cost slightly more then the 615. Grant you not all 1000s are the same nor would be the Eastmans. Some will test drive one on the wall that has not been set up and say it's a dog and never look back and then come here and say how bad it was. Others can tell from the wall hangers that this one only needs a good set up and it would be one fine mandolin. When I started out the Gibson F5 was $600. My first mandolin my mother got with saving GreenStamps,a Kay A model. I'd say today she would have gotten me the KM1000 with her MasterCard points but would not condsider a Gibson F5 at $12,000 plus. And I would probably have learned better on the 1000 then that hard to play Kay.

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## mandolirius

I always thought the 250S and 380S were pretty good starter instruments. There was a guy in town who was buying them up off ebay, giving them a good set up and maybe a finger rest. I steered quite a few of my students that way.

The best sounding Kentucky I ever played was John Moore's KM1500.

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## Stephen Perry

Funny thing here is that in the shop I couldn't sell the KM1000. People would come in and try the KM, then buy an Eastman. Weird. I have my own opinions on why etc and on the instruments, but who cares about those? I just look for the credit card votes. If I could get the KM1000 I'd have two sitting up there with the Eastmans etc. I'd like to get a big anchor brand, too.

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## f5loar

John Moore had an 80's KM1000 or that's all I ever saw him with. He may have owned the 1500 too. Mike Lambert a very gifted mandolin/guitar picker in my area still plays his old 80's KM1500. I'm sure there are many pros/semi-pros still playing their old 1500s but none come to mind.

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## allenhopkins

I have a feeling that what Pam means by "hype" was the discussion of the _uber-_Kentucky designed by Sumi hanging on the wall as a prototype for all other Kentuckys, etc. etc. #One of the differences that I seem to be hearing about the brand (and I must confess I've never owned one) is that production was moved not just from factory to factory, but from country to country (Japan-Korea-China), and that construction and quality varied quite a bit as a result. #Recent posts on the KY's have been, as a rule, positive.

IMHO, variations among individual instruments of the same brand can be of such magnitude as to eclipse generalizations about sound, finish etc. #May not be as true about mass-produced factory instruments, with less scope for individual craftsmanship, but still no two pieces of wood are _exactly_ alike, and I've never heard two mandolins, even of the same brand and model, that didn't have significant differences in sound and "feel."

For that reason, seems a trifle dicey to generalize that Brand X always beats Brand Y. #Probably safe when your comparing mass-produced Asian imports to hand-crafted small-builder custom models -- but even then, you'll find the unusual import that has "that sound" and competes with its more expensive cousins. #How many threads have I read where some picker says, "I took my No-Name to the jam last week, and everyone said it sounded as good as So-and-So's Big-Name." #Leaving aside that "everyone" may not have wanted to hurt his feelings, the guy could have had the one in a thousand No-Name that transcends the limitations of its humble origins on the banks of the Yangtze or wherever.

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## Billfiddl3r

The hype is because kentucky mandolins are affordable instruments. I've owned 4 kentuckys a 700,800,805 and a 1500 and 3 gibsons 1933f5mm 1951f5mm 1999f5mm
and all my kentuckys sounded far better than these
high end webers.

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## catmandu2

> There is a woodiness there that I don't usually find in Pac Rim models less than 1K...


I have a cheapie 150s that possesses this quality. I wonder, Steve, if there's a consistently better sounding/playing mando for ~$200?

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## Stephen Perry

There's no consistently "better" sounding mandolin because different players play differently, producing different results. And players can't agree on what sound is "best." There's no "best." Can't happen. 

One fellow describes a mandolin as warm, easy to play. The fellow before described it as muddy and unfocused, lacking power. Who is correct?

A mandolin comes in. It sounds weak. The bridge is leaning towards the fingerboard. Straightening the bridge up brings it to life. Has it become better all of a sudden?

Two mandolins come in, neither set up. A player favors one over the other. After setup, he still favors one over the other. After a year of playing, he again favors one over the other. There's no assurance the player will be favoring the same mandolin at each stage.

I see this pattern all the time. No "best" based on performance.

The other way to look at "best" is by looking for consistency and quality of construction. Does the instrument follow the general standards of construction used in the industry as to wood choice, design, and execution? I suppose a trip throw NAMM with a light, mirror, hackinger gauge, and notebook would get this data.

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## Siminole

I have both a KM675 and an Eastman 615. I am the 2nd owner for both of them, and the 675 Kentucky I have owned for many years, the Eastman, of course, is somewhat newer. I really like both of them and have no intention of selling either. I can't say which I had rather play as they have a bit of a different sound and unique in their own way. If I had to part with one, I couldn't honestly tell you which instrument I would keep. "Keep on Picking"

Al

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## g-mac

I don't think it's hype as much as plain old value for the money. The 250s was my first mando. It still is my only mando, since I've bought and then sold two others that I thought would be "upgrades". I'd play the new ones for a while and then notice that my 250s would start get most of my playing time. It definitely has that woodiness that was mentioned above. 

I'm not saying I'll never get another mando, but for under 300 bucks and hundreds of hrs of playing time and genuine enjoyment, my Kentucky ends up seeming like quite the bargain!

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AquillaWindsong

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## catmandu2

> There's no "best." #Can't happen.


Still, out of all the $200 pacrim mandos that I've played, the Kentucky's were all usually "better" than the rest.

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## kudzugypsy

i think the KM-1500 was the best "value" mando of all time, and why they are still so desired..but these were NOT cheap - my 1987 KM-1500 listed for $1595 with a slightly lower street price (you could buy a Nugget/Gil/Monte then for around $2k) - and they all didnt sound great - i know, i bought 4 other KM-1500s over the years hoping to find a mate to mine and none sounded as good as the '87. they were all good, but some of them just blew you away with how good they sounded and how they cut in a jam. the funny thing is i still take my old KM-1500 out to jams and i LOVE to see the expression on peoples faces when they see the Kentucky name on the headstock...its like what??? arent those cheap mandolins? why does it sound better than Bubba's Gibson?

i was in a music store the other day that specialized in acoustic bluegrass instruments (Zepps in NC - great place) and i was just blown away by the new Kentucky's - even the low end solid top A's...folks, these are A LOT better than what we had to play in the 70's-80's. you can get a really good mandolin (A) for under $350 - that aint bad.

i never was that impressed with the MKs and Eastmans as with the KYs...i'm speaking tonally impressive, the MKs & Eastmans do have a little more bling that most beginners/novices go for.

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## Stephen Perry

I thought the Kentuckys had more "bling." Compare KM-855 to 600 series Eastman line. 

Don't misunderstand me; I like the new Kentucky line just fine. I've got a KM-505 now that is really quite pleasant! And very inexpensive. The lines are all different, and it's quite a miracle we've got such a range of budget choices.

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## birdman98

Had a km-630 for about two years.

GREAT instrument for the $$$$$$. Sold it to a fiddle player who is learning the mando and she is very happy with it as well.

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## Folkmusician.com

After their initial move to China, Kentucky had some quality issues and lost a lot of market share. I believe some of this was due to the other brands coming on the scene as well. I've talked to Don Moser a few times in the past year or so and they have been putting a lot of effort into improving the line. As stated, the new KM-250 is a major improvement over the older KM-250S, which was nice to begin with. They brought back the KM-160 and the oval hole KM-170, then the KM-505 and upgraded most of the F-models as well. I have had a few KM-1000 mandolins though my hands and these seem to be getting progressively better with each new batch. I have two new ones here now and I am amazed at the quality for this price range.

Any hype is well deserved at this point. Saga has been busy with the line and aside from a few issues here and there, they are putting out a great value in mandos.

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## SternART

Kentucky's from the 80's were built in Japan.....at a later point they were built in Korea, and now in China.
The only ones I have experience with are the Japanese built instruments. There was input from both David Grisman 
& John Monteleone in the Dawg models & some of that rubbed off on the other high end models. There were some darn 
good mandolins built in that era, but not all were stellar.

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## f5loar

I remember one time seeing the Dawg Quintet in the late 80's and the whole band was playing Kentucky/Saga instruments.
Kinda cool and what better endorsement then the Dawgs band.
The problem with those 80's is you just don't see them for sale very often and they are up to the price of the new ones(KM1000)or more and to me the new ones are better.

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## Ken Olmstead

Wow thats saying a lot f5! What makes you say that the new ones are better? I would like objective stuff of course but as we all know there is small amount of subjectivity  going on with these things. I have followed your posts and respect what you may have to say about the new 1000s. How about this idea that the latest batches generally are "better" than the earlier ones. What is your connection with this brand? Thanks in advance.

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## Folkmusician.com

In my case, I am a dealer... So naturally, you should take what i say with a grain of salt. I am basing my opinion on the fact that I have had my hands on a few of these now and the latest ones have cleaner workmanship and better tone (from what I recall) than the first (China made) KM-1000 models I have had. It makes sense... there have not been a whole lot of these made, and even though there is a huge waiting list, Saga has not went nuts with production levels. I would assume that the makers are getting better and working out the details.

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## mandolirius

&lt;John Moore had an 80's KM1000 or that's all I ever saw him with. He may have owned the 1500 too.&gt;

It was quite a few years ago, so it may be my error. I'm pretty sure the mandolin I mean is the one he usually played, so I expect we're talking about the same instrument. I thought it was a 1500, but it could have been a 1000. I don't think there were a lot of differences between them visually. I might have just assumed he played the top-of-the-line model. 

Whatever it was, he sure made it sound great.

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## f5loar

The big difference between the old 1000 and old 1500 is the 1000 was a flowerpot and the 1500 was a fern pattern.
1500 generally had more figure on the maple, different binding and gold parts. At the time( I had a 1500) these were no doubt the best import mandolin out there. If was far superior to Alverez,Ibanez,Washburn,etc. But it really lacked being compared to Loar like quality and sound. But these new 1000s are very Loar like in quality and sound. 
Now you are comparing $1500 to $200,000 here so expect some differences. I'm a pretty good judge of when a mandolin just feels right and these feel just fine.

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## Rroyd

John Moore's Kentucky had the fern inlay, so that would identify it as a 1500 model. He played it for years, until Gibson gave him a new F5 3 or 4 years ago. I don't know if it gets any playing time now, but he played it on a number of recordings presently available.

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## mandroid

It's more Brand name promotion, thats what Saga music Group does , contract out production , import , distribute to dealers, advertise, cover US warranted problems .
Kentucky and Gitane, neither Bourbon Nor Cigarettes.

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## Folkmusician.com

Saga has managed to keep the Kentucky line unique though. A lot of imports are obviously the same mandolins with a different name on the headstock or some minor spec changes. The Kentucky's are different.  

More often than not, Saga has pioneered, and others follow. In many areas, Saga is responsible for kicking off huge changes in the marketplace. If we look as their history, they are first to market on a regular basis. 

Gold Star Banjos 
Kentucky mandolins
Cremona Violins
Regal Dobros (Asian)
Blueridge guitars (current versions)
Gitane Guitars

Each of these brands would raise the bar on imports. Soon after, others would follow.

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## Nick Triesch

A few weeks ago I went to our Bufallo Bros sister store in San Doego called Old Time Music. They have a ton of high end mandos and guitars. Anyway the manager, Tom handed me a nice Kentucky F type after I played everything in the store . Collings, Gibson, Flatiron ect. and it was just about the best one on the wall. And Tom knew it. That's why he had me play it. I looked at him and said "mandolins are strange beasts and he answered back, "Yes they are" . What I have been finding out over the last few years is that many times a much less expensive mandolin can sound a lot better than the big boys.  The Kentucky was about $1400 and it sounded like $7000.  Nick

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## Cuba Ridge

The Kentucky 675 that was made in China 3 or 4 years ago with the Flowerpot was a major-league lemon. The 675 made in Korea was great and something that I would still recommend to someone if they can find one in the &lt; $800 range.

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## catmandu2

Not only Gold Star banjos, but those with the very Saga name MIJ in the 70s and 80s were excellent masterclones.

I hesitate to make a purchase of a new instrument made oversees these days, but good lord, it's hard to beat the quality of these Blueridge guitars, Kentucky mandos, et al. in this price range.

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## Desert Rose

Mandroid

Sorry for the record most of what you said was just plain wrong

While Saga does oem source their ground breaking Blueridge production ( to the top factory in China), and some other things Saga OWNS their own factory in Qingdao as well

I was the first outsider ever to visit and work there and helped set it up in the beginning including designing the entire finish departments and process, as well as the first assembly shop

The entire first crew of workers ALL had college degrees!!!

Saga has a San Francisco supervisor working in Qingdao full time, THATS why the 1000 are improving so fast

Just keeping the facts straight

Scott

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## Caleb

I really like Kentucky mandolins. I have found them to be pretty consistant and a really good value. My first mandolin was a KM350S, which I believe is now a discontinued model. Not sure why though. 

The only thing that I DO NOT like about them is the name. The name just sounds like they are trying to hard to be "American" or like they're trying to hard to sound "Bluehgrassy". I just don't care for it and have never liked the name. I do, however, like names like Eastman, since it reflects the origin of the instrument and tells me that they are not ashamed of it, where Kentucky sounds like they are trying really hard to get away from the Made in China stigma. But to me it just reinforces it. 

FWIW

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## Stephen Perry

When the Kentucky brand originated the instruments weren't built in China. So I doubt the name was intended to hide a Chinese origin.

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## pdb

Japan, then Korea, then China.  Still, all asian made.

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## MikeEdgerton

I'm still trying to figure out how the other name listed identifies it as Chinese. It looks more like it's from Rochester to me.

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## allenhopkins

> I'm still trying to figure out how the other name listed identifies it as Chinese. It looks more like it's from Rochester to me.


Ah yes, #Rochester NY, home of the _Eastman_ School of Music, named for George Eastman, founder of Kodak and funder of the school...

I have often wondered whether Eastman Instruments, which I believe started out making orchestral stringed instruments such as violins, violas and cellos, picked the "Eastman" name to get some identification with an American institution that's produced thousands of orchestral string players.

On the other hand "east man" could mean a person from the Far East, _e.g._ a citizen of China. #

As I have posted before _ad nauseum,_ I do find it a bit off-putting when instruments made in Asia are given "down home" American names -- Kentucky, Blue Ridge, Galveston, Lone Star, Morgan Monroe, etc. #And even more so when they are labeled with the names of former American manufacturers, such as Epiphone, Flatiron, Washburn, Regal, Recording King and so forth. #I have a tad more respect for companies like Yamaha, Takamine and Sumi who are up-front about their origins.

But reiterating my prejudices just types me as a crabby oldster who can remember when Epiphones were produced in New York, later Kalamazoo, and Guilds came from Rhode Island, Fenders from California, and Flatirons from Montana. #Had to walk three miles uphill to _and_ from school, and we _loved_ it...

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## MikeEdgerton

> On the other hand "east man" could mean a person from the Far East, _e.g._ a citizen of China.


Let's stop and examine that. Do you think the Chinese see themselves as being from the east? Maybe they see the Americans as being from the east. Is America the center of their universe as well? Just a thought.

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## Stephen Perry

An interesting point given brands and sourcing from all over. I don't know that there's any way to do it well. I've tried having names appropriate to the place of origin, such as a famous mountain peak. "What's that mean? Why not give it a normal name?" A number "Why doesn't this have a name I can remember, a number is just cold." Something easy to remember. "Why don't you name it with a foreign name, it's a foreign instrument." So there's probably no right answer. When a brand's products are going to come from several countries over time, how would one select an appropriate name? Especially if the origins are on several continents. Hard enough to figure out the country of origin for import and export purposes, let alone developing a name!

So I don't mind the various names. Some will like them, some won't, regardless of the name chosen.

The bias against "pacrim" stuff is a bit odd. Last time I looked, Taylor guitars and my fine Ecuadorian classical guitar were pacrim items.

----------


## ApK

> Let's stop and examine that. Do you think the Chinese see themselves as being from the east? Maybe they see the Americans as being from the east. Is America the center of their universe as well? Just a thought.


I figure they acknowledge the same system of longitude. We here in America don't consider ourselves the 'center', we consider ourselves the west. As in the Western world, Western Civilization, etc.

I never thought of menaing for the 'East' in 'Eastman.'
I wonder if that was an intentional double meaning? Pretty clever if so.

I don't think of the down-homey names as being anything other than typical marketing for such things. Just like that salsa from New York City.

ApK

----------


## Givensman

I played a Kentucky 1500 in the early 1990's. Sold it to buy a 1982 Givens F Model (out of necessity). Would not let my Givens go for anything......but sure wish I still had the Kentucky 1500!!!

----------


## f5loar

Wasn't Morgan Monroe Bill's older brother that died shortly before the Monroe Bros. left home to play music?
Funny they would name a bluegrass instrument after Bill's older brother nobody knew. He only played the "jaw" harp and spoons at the old barn in Rosine, KY.

----------


## allenhopkins

> Wasn't Morgan Monroe Bill's older brother that died shortly before the Monroe Bros. left home to play music?
> Funny they would name a bluegrass instrument after Bill's older brother nobody knew. He only played the "jaw" harp and spoons at the old barn in Rosine, KY.


According to Richard Smith's Bill Monroe biography, _Can't You Hear Me Calling,_ Bill's siblings were:
Harry (born 1893)
Speed (1894)
John (1896)
Maude (1898)
Birch (1901)
Charles (1903)
Bertha (1908)

Bill was born 1911. #Not a Morgan in the bunch, as far as Smith knows.

Of course, the above posting might have been tongue-in-cheek...

Similarly, I've had other musicians ask me in all seriousness about the noted Irish luthier, "Michael Kelly." #I tell them his quaint workshop is located in that old Irish town, Dingle-on-the-Yangtze.

----------


## catmandu2

> The bias against "pacrim" stuff is a bit odd.


The preeminent instrument of the contemporary "bluesman" will probably be a Yamaha.

----------


## skyblue

was morgan monroe named after two counties in indiana?

      Morgan County
      Monroe County

----------


## Givensman

Morgan David .....perhaps!

----------


## Caleb

> When the Kentucky brand originated the instruments weren't built in China. #So I doubt the name was intended to hide a Chinese origin.


I don't know the origin of Kentucky instruments. Maybe they were once a Made in USA brand. I guess I (wrongly?) assumed that they have always been an imported brand. The name has always been off-putting to me though. 

And the Eastman name, at least to me, has always meant that they are made in the east. Just seems like they're not trying to hide behind it. I could be wrong.

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## Stephen Perry

As far as I can tell, Saga has never hidden the origin of their instruments! They selected some brand names and have run with them. I like that better than having the same name on motorcycles & guitars! I'd find a Ford mandolin a bit odd. 

One of the problems is in determining where something is from. I can get a violin in the white made with European wood in China with an Indian made fingerboard. Put lots of work into it here, varnish it with materials from Europe, north Africa, and the US, set it up with a French bridge, Austrian strings, and Bulgarian fittings.

What country is it from?

----------


## red7flag

I heard one CD with Birch Monroe playing fiddle on one tune. Birch played fiddle much as Bill would have on mandolin. I am not sure of the name of the CD, but it was a live setting. There were some interview type questions Bill was asked from the audience. One asked him to demonstrate the shuffle on the mandolin. Bill explained that what he did was an interpretation of what is played on the fiddle, then played it. Was a neet rythm.  Was really fun to listen too. I hope I have not put two memories together that don't belong together.
Tony

----------


## Cuba Ridge

> was morgan monroe named after two counties in indiana?
> 
>       Morgan County
>       Monroe County


I assumed the name Morgan Monroe was mixing Celtic with Bluegrass because there is the Turlough O'Carolan tune "Morgan Magan" &lt;- I believe it's in Butch's "30 fiddle tunes for mandolin" book.

----------


## catmandu2

I've got to get back into this again, for I am the king of budget instruments and I recently got hold of one of these KM100 in mint condition. The thing is as basic a mando as you could imagine--very thin, very light--yet has a beautiful neck and a robust, balanced tone. Another of the very-good-mando-for-the-money Kentuckys..

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## MikeEdgerton

It's an Indiana company, I'd guess it was a combo of the counties and the tie to another guy named Monroe. We could ask Jasper.

----------


## GTison

It's named after a state forest in Indiana. 
What's all this got to do w/ KY mandolins?
That KM-100 is what I started out on in 1984.

----------


## Kbone

> The Kentucky 675 that was made in China 3 or 4 years ago with the Flowerpot was a major-league lemon. The 675 made in Korea was great and something that I would still recommend to someone if they can find one in the &lt; $800 range.


I owned a Korean 675 and played the newer China ones & the tone IMO was better with the Chinese models, more woody.

----------


## Alex Orr

> Originally Posted by  (giannaviolins @ Mar. 16 2008, 09:19)
> 
> The bias against "pacrim" stuff is a bit odd.
> 
> 
> The preeminent instrument of the contemporary "bluesman" will probably be a Yamaha.


At the blues jams I used to go to a year or two ago, Taylor's ruled the roost. I've never thought Taylor's were all that great, especially for the money, but the acoustic blues world seems to love those things.

----------


## catmandu2

The traditional socio-cultural milieu of the "Blues" seems at odds with guitars costing thousands. That's why I propose that todays Yammies, in terms of cost and proliferation, are the harmonys, stellas and silvertones of yesteryear.

----------


## Michael Gowell

...back to Kentuckys...I too started on a KM 100 around 1984 and appreciated its playability and decent sound. #In the early years of Kentucky the model # = the price. #A KM 100 cost a hundred bucks (often discounted to 90 or 95 at the music store). #It was a great price point to lure casual guitarists into mandolinland. #Amazingly, Kentucky aimed to cover the small but growing mandolin market from bottom to absolute top - for their Dawg model I've read that Sumi trained with John Monteleone in his NY workshop. 

In the mid-80's their top mando (excluding the Dawgs) was the KM 1500 at $1500 - around 5 weeks take-home pay for someone making around 20K a year, a decent wage back then. #I'd expect that ratio of 4-6 weeks income to buy a great mando still holds true for many players.

Interestingly the number of makers of mandos - mostly mass production-oriented shops but also some individual makers - increased the number and quality of mandolins available in the mid and late 1980's so that the serviceable but lowly KM 100 had a market value of $0 after a while. #

I know it's possible to buy a mando today for $100 or less, but they are not equivilent instrument. #And no other instrument company that I can think of has tried to cover the entire mando market from bottom to top since Gibson in the teens and '20s.

----------


## Douglas McMullin

I just won an an Ebay auction for a KM-250 that looks to be in excellent condition. I am hoping this will work well as a cabin or boat mandolin (no place for my Collings). It was under $200 with a decent looking soft case, so I cant imagine I will be terribly disappointed.

Is the bridge on this thing likely to be tolerable from a setup standpoint or should I look at getting a slightly better one?

----------


## gnelson651

<!--QuoteBegin--allenhopkins+Mar. 16 2008, 00:07
As I have posted before [i--><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td> (allenhopkins @ Mar. 16 2008, 00:07
As I have posted before [i)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ad nauseum,[/i] I do find it a bit off-putting when instruments made in Asia are given "down home" American names -- Kentucky, Blue Ridge, Galveston, *Lone Star*, Morgan Monroe, etc. #And even more so when they are labeled with the names of former American manufacturers, such as Epiphone, Flatiron, Washburn, Regal, Recording King and so forth. #I have a tad more respect for companies like Yamaha, Takamine and Sumi who are up-front about their origins.

[/QUOTE]
Lone Star is made in Mexico

----------


## allenhopkins

> Lone Star is made in Mexico


The "Lone Star Adjacent State"?

----------


## gnelson651

> Originally Posted by  (gnelson651 @ Mar. 18 2008, 10:35)
> 
> Lone Star is made in Mexico
> 
> 
> The "Lone Star Adjacent State"?


Don't forget that the adjacent state was once owned by Mexico.

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## earthsave

My buddy has a Lonestar. Sounds like a cigar box with strings. But it works and plays like a mandolin. Came with a really nice corrugated cardboard case that was made in Mexico too.

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## gnelson651

> My buddy has a Lonestar. #Sounds like a cigar box with strings. #But it works and plays like a mandolin. #Came with a really nice corrugated cardboard case that was made in Mexico too.


I bought a Lonestar Roma from the classifieds for $70. It was not that bad sounding for what it is. In fact, a lady in the mandolin ensemble I played in like the sound so much she convinced be to trade it for a student violin. The volin went to my daughter to use at school where she could leave it rather than have to cart a violin to school along with her 70 lb. backpack everyday.

----------


## allenhopkins

So, if Lone Star instruments are made in Mexico, by someone named, let's say, Rodriguez, why not call them "Rodriguez" instead of "Lone Star"? # Is there supposed to be something inferior about an instrument named "Rodriguez" or "Takamine" or "Sumi"?

When Toyota sends a car to America, they don't call it a "Hudson" or a "Studebaker" or some other defunct American nameplate. #Nor do they make up an American-sounding name for it, such as "Detroit Iron" or "Andretti" (I'm trying to think up automotive analogies to "Loar," "Kentucky," "Blue Ridge" etc.). #Sometimes they do put American-sounding model names on them -- I am a bit bemused by the Hyundai "Tucson" and "Santa Fe," which I don't think are cities in Asia. #But who the heck knows _what_ a "Corolla" or an "Elantra" is?

Difference is, Asian-made automobiles, to a large extent, have a reputation for quality. #No one these days is embarrassed to be driving a Lexus or a Honda (I have two -- Hondas, that is). #Since there are large numbers of low-end Asian musical instruments being imported, perhaps the importers feel that some American-sounding name is needed to give them status and legitimacy in our eyes. And this attitude extends to instruments, like the Kentucky mandolins, that can surely stand on their own feet as comparable to many US-made products.

So were the Kentucky mandolins called "Mandarin" or "Hunan" or "Jiangsu," would that make them less attractive? #Or if Lone Star instruments were, instead, "Rodriguez"? #Seems we should be past having to have our imports sound "American," considering how much we import.

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## MikeEdgerton

Ever hear of a Mazda Navaho? Wait, they were made in the US so that name would fly

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## ApK

> So, if Lone Star instruments are made in Mexico, by someone named, let's say, Rodriguez, why not call them "Rodriguez" instead of "Lone Star"?  Is there supposed to be something inferior about an instrument named "Rodriguez" or "Takamine" or "Sumi"?


Because the goal of branding and marketing a commercial product is to sell it by striking a certain mood with consumers, not to accurately document it's origin. We have labels for that.

I don't see why you feel it's necessary to project shame, or embarrassment or some other kind of cover-up or ulterior motive on a long-standing common marketing practice that that is nearly universal across industries and countries.

I'm sure we could think of some example of American products that are named to suggest a foreign connection.

Haagan-Daas Ice Cream comes to mind.
Or, again, that salsa from New York City.


ApK

----------


## tkdboyd

I think it would be great if a Chinese company would make a brand with the name Szechuan; maybe a tasteful flame and some calligraphy on the headstock. The marketing would be so easy.

----------


## Rick Cadger

> ...
> Because the goal of branding and marketing a commercial product is to sell it by striking a certain mood with consumers, not to accurately document it's origin. We have labels for that.
> 
> I don't see why you feel it's necessary to project shame, or embarrassment or some other kind of cover-up or ulterior motive on a long-standing common marketing practice that that is nearly universal across industries and countries.
> 
> I'm sure we could think of some example of American products that are named to suggest a foreign connection.
> 
> Haagan-Daas Ice Cream comes to mind.
> Or, again, that salsa from New York City.
> ...


I agree. I think names like Kentucky are chosen more to appeal to bluegrass tradition than to conceal origin (which branding won't do anyway).

I would guess that the US, specifically the bluegrass music genre, is the biggest single market for archtop A and F mandolins. What better reason to choose a name with some relevance or resonance if you want to move your product?

And the days when some of you guys could point a single finger in the general direction of "Asia" and rubbish the entire instrument output are long gone. You have to be more selective these days. A lot of what is coming out of Asia is really very good quality and very good value.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Haagan-Daas Ice Cream comes to mind.


Right on Andy. Ruben Mattus and his wife made up the word so it would sound Scandinavian. In a previous lifetime (way back) I did business with the original Haagen-Daaz company before they sold to PIllsbury. 

Companies on all sides of the pond spend good money to determine what works in advertising and that includes naming a brand. The clothing industry is famous for naming brands so that you think they have a different country of origin, be that the USA or elsewhere. 

With that said, there's a reason why the US Customs service checks for a country of origin label on imported products and probably as much of a reason why some foreign companies put that information on a peel off label.

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## ApK

Yup, until they moved a while back, the Haagan-Daas factory was right down the street from me. I think they make tortillas there now. Which is slightly more authentic to the area.

The mention of our mutual geography reminds me...when are you going to come jam, Mike?

----------


## mandroid

The Chinese/Korean and Japanese characters are so difficult for the western customers to read, let alone for the builders to saw out the MOP shell inlay thousands of times over .

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## MikeEdgerton

> The mention of our mutual geography reminds me...when are you going to come jam, Mike?


I'm gonna have to get up there one of these days.

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## gregjones

> With that said, there's a reason why the US Customs service checks for a country of origin label on imported products and probably as much of a reason why some foreign companies put that information on a peel off label.


True. The gummy rectangle lingers long after the "Made in Korea" label is removed. I'm sure WD-40 would take it off, but I'm not sure it doesn't contain silicone or some other product that isn't the best for the back of a headstock.

Anyone have any ideas?

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## MikeEdgerton

Sure, lemon pledge.

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## ApK

Blind Lemon Pledge? I love his work.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

ouch.

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## Folkmusician.com

There are many instruments made with names that are obviously not American. You don't see these in stores and no one hears of them. I venture a guess that there is a reason for this.  The brands never make it. A good portion of the major factories have made their own lines. A few have had limited success, but for the most part these never go anywhere. It would be difficult to sell a Daewon brand mandolin. hehe

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## Jim Broyles

> Originally Posted by  (ApK @ Mar. 19 2008, 09:53)
> 
> Haagan-Daas Ice Cream comes to mind.
> 
> 
> Right on Andy. Ruben Mattus and his wife made up the word so it would sound Scandinavian.


Clever marketing strategy, but no different,IMO, from an Asian manufacturer naming their product with an American sounding name. I really don't think they do it to sound "American" as much as to appeal to the bluegrass crowd, as stated by a previous poster.

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## MikeEdgerton

The point is that it's not specific to the imported musical instrument business, it appears in all lines of business. It's a common practice in all parts of the world.

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## ApK

> Clever marketing strategy, but no different,IMO, from an Asian manufacturer naming their product with an American sounding name. I really don't think they do it to sound "American" as much as to appeal to the bluegrass crowd, as stated by a previous poster.


I think that's precisely the point Mike and I are making. There's no reason to assume they are trying to hide the fact they are Asian made, they are just trying to sell the most product, like everyone else.
I'd bet heavily that if these same Asian companies sell Asian folk instruments in the US, they'd absolutely give them Asian sounding brands.




> There are many instruments made with names that are obviously not American. You don't see these in stores and no one hears of them.


There are exceptions, of course, like Takamine an Yamaha which have already been mentioned here. They managed to establish those names as a valuable and desirable brand. That's great, too. If our hypothetical Senior Rodriguez becomes well known for his quality instruments, perhaps his name will replace Lone Star on the headstock and people will seek it out. Right now, an association with the southern US musical tradition (not to mention a name more easily pronounceable by the largest group of consumers) attracts more folks to pick it up and try it.

ApK

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## Caleb

I really don't think they do it to sound "American" as much as to appeal to the bluegrass crowd, as stated by a previous poster.[/QUOTE]
I think this is correct, but it has the opposite effect on me and makes me not want to buy it.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> I think this is correct, but it has the opposite effect on me and makes me not want to buy it.


I thought you owned a Kentucky A-style KM350.

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## allenhopkins

Hey, boy, I sure feel like Mr. Hijacker here, sending the whole thread off on a tangent of brand name selection, marketing strategies, and whether Sr. Rodriguez should change his name to "Lone Star" (or "Blue Ridge Kentucky")...

*But,* since we're here, I don't think I said that Asian companies were "hiding" their origins by giving American names to their products. #With the exception of some of the clueless (I did get a folkie asking me if "Michael Kelly" was an Irish luthier), I'm sure none of the _cognoscenti_ on this board are ignorant of where Kentucky, Blue Ridge, The Loar, Recording King, Gold Star, Gold Tone, Rogue, Rover, Fullerton, Morgan Monroe, Trinity College, Eastman, etc. -- list is endless! -- instruments are built.

I just mused on why we accept Sony, Toyota, Honda, Hitachi, Yamaha, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Subaru, and dozens of other overtly Asian nameplates as being representative of high quality -- and in many cases superior quality to their American competitors -- but the same acceptance of, and even preference for, overtly Asian labels doesn't seem to carry over into the instrument area. #You can say, "Well, that's to appeal to the bluegrass crowd," but couldn't the same argument apply to the "automotive crowd" or the "consumer electronics crowd"? #On the one hand, you have Panasonic (Western sounding); on the other hand, Sony (Eastern sounding). #Doesn't seem to make a great deal of difference, IMHO.

It wasn't too long ago that some of the Asian instruments were given _faux_ Spanish names -- Ibanez, Alvarez -- since I guess we all knew that Spaniards could build stringed instruments, and Japanese couldn't, or something like that. #But those days are decades behind us. #I've seen some of our more Americo-centric country music singers on stage with Takamine guitars -- no electrical tape over the headstock logo, either.

I'm sure we'll never reach consensus, and I do want to emphasize that I gladly and freely acquire Asian instruments, respect their quality and workmanship, and am glad that we have access to such a world-wide variety of musical merchandise. #In these days, if it weren't for imported instruments, people starting out on mandolin, banjo or guitar would have few choices, since American companies like Harmony, Regal, and Kay are long defunct -- leaving only their nameplates behind, to be exported to Asia.

----------

kenikas

----------


## ApK

Actually, I think this is still quite relevant to the thread...it concerns the brand and it's hype, after all.  Did the Kentucky name contrbute to their appeal? I know I developed an increased fondness for Fullerton when it was pointed out to me that they all had New Jersey town names!
Or, as is likely the case with Caleb, did people try them in SPITE of the hokey brand name, not because of it?

Yamaha somehow got be known as a quality name for both motorcycles and musical instruments.
I love my Subaru Outback, but I'm not sure I'd do much more than giggle if I saw a Subaru branded guitar in a store. "What do they know about wood and wire?" I'd ask myself.
MAYBE, they'd try putting that name on a guitar, and if they were good guitars, maybe word would spread and the name Subaru would, like Yamaha, become known for both. But I'd BET they'd instead create a brand name that they thought would conjure the right image in the minds of guitar shoppers.
Then, they'd either own ANOTHER successful and valuable brand name, or maybe they'd slowly change the marketing: First, the "FINGERPICKER" brand guitars, then "FINGERPICKER (by Subaru)" then ("Fingerpicker)by SUBARU" the finally "SUBARU -- the first name in guitars"

Maybe one day, Saga (which isn't Asian sounding at all, anyway, so THAT CAN'T be why they picked other names) will put it's name on all it's instrument and do away with Kentucky, Cremona and all the others.

----------


## catmandu2

> Asian instruments (with) _faux_ Spanish names -- Ibanez, Alvarez...


One of my favorites in this regard is the contemporary "Salvatore Ibanez"--one of the most pacrim factory-bred instruments available..

----------


## Paul Hostetter

I was also fond of Goya, made in Sweden by Levin. So Spanish. So _not_ Pac-rim.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> I was also fond of Goya, made in Sweden by Levin. So Spanish. So _not_ Pac-rim.


Until Martin bought Levin 

Goya

----------


## Paul Hostetter

The irony is that Herman Levin, who founded Levin Guitars in 1900 or so, trained at CF Martin. Many of his early guitars are identical to old Martins. 77 years later, Martin bought them out and sank them. 

The Levin workers merged with Bjärton (AKA Bjerton), and that operation survived until 1989, when it stopped for a few years. Then the name popped back up on instruments made by Strunal in the Czech Republic. 

That Goya page has evidently not been updated since 2004. I may try and contact the guy, if he's even still there, because there's some questionable information on there. (I have seen Martin Goyas made in Sweden, for example. Nothing at all memorable however.) Martin also had guitars made in the Netherlands then too, under the Alpha brand. Fibes Drums, boy they really ran a bunch of businesses down the tube back then. 

The Hershman company that marketed Goyas was the same one that made Herco picks and accessories and has since morphed in the musical insurance business. There may be living Hershman family members or employees who could help him sort out the deal with Goya guitars.

----------


## Folkmusician.com

I don't think the members on the board here are a good representation of the average buyer of mandolins in the price range where these imports fall. I get calls daily, where people are surprised to find out that these import brands are not US made instruments. Not everyone, but still a good percentage.

I also noticed that when we started listing the country of origin, sales took a small hit. I am not sure that this is common knowledge among first time players or players that have not bought instruments since the big shift to Asia. It does not appear to be prejudice against Pac Rim instruments so much as just being caught off guard. I still get the occasional phone call where the customer is shocked to have received their new instrument and find the "Made in China", or Korea sticker on it. Nine times out of ten, they are happy with the instrument and ultimately keep it.

It is interesting that Takamine has such a hold in country music.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> It is interesting that Takamine has such a hold in country music


They had an acoustic electric guitar and a great artist relations department at the right time in the right place.

----------


## Paul Hostetter

They're also a division of Kaman, which also markets Ovation, Adamas and Hamer, not to mention Gretsch Drums, LP Music, Becker violins, Sabian, Genz Benz, Seiko, Lee Oskar, Hercules, and Levy's Leathers.

----------


## Desert Rose

Actually they are now a division of Fender from what I heard at the namm show 

http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp...ire-Kaman.html

Scott

----------


## Paul Hostetter

Egads. Next Fender'll be subsumed by Pillsbury/Exxon Mobil/Verizon.

----------


## Bill Snyder

> ...Or, again, that salsa from New York City.
> 
> 
> ApK


What salsa from NYC? I know for years Pace used that line about a supposed competitor but I have never seen a salsa from NYC.

----------


## ApK

> Originally Posted by  (ApK @ Mar. 19 2008, 08:53)
> 
> ...Or, again, that salsa from New York City.
> 
> 
> ApK
> 
> 
> What salsa from NYC? I know for years Pace used that line about a supposed competitor but I have never seen a salsa from NYC.


Actually, according to the folks behind that campaign, there was no particular competitor they were talking about.
The ads just pointed out the same factor we're discussing, that people like certain associations...salsa made down in Tex-Mex country MUST be better than one made by city slickers up north, right?

I believe one of their major competitors is made in Minnesota or some such.

BTW, personally I think Pace is AWFUL. The ones made up north are better...I wish they'd stop using brands like 'Chi-chi' and 'Old El Paso' and give them names that show they're northern so I'd know they were good!

Just kidding.

ApK

----------


## Paul Hostetter

Try generating a decent chipotle (smoked jalapeño pepper) in New England! You can't even get the right kind of wood to smoke it with! Thank heavens for tin cans:

----------


## Bill Snyder

Well I am from Texas and Pace is not high on my list either, but I do still buy either Texas made or (OLD) Mexican made picante. But I am not sure why tomatos, onions and jalepenos from up north wouldn't work ok, so long as it was not labeled with some phony Texas name to try and make me think it was a native product.

----------


## Caleb

> Originally Posted by  (Caleb @ Mar. 20 2008, 10:28)
> 
> I think this is correct, but it has the opposite effect on me and makes me not want to buy it.
> 
> 
> I thought you owned a Kentucky A-style KM350.


Mike, you're right, I did own one, but it's been sold now. I loved the instrument, but the name was always a turn off to me. I ended up with a Kentucky because it was an eBay steal and I took the chance. It was my intro into the mandolin world.

----------


## f5loar

"so long as it was not labeled with some phony Texas name to try and make me think it was a native product. "
Sorry but I'm proud to be from the State of North Carolina home to world famous "Texas Pete" Hot Sauce.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Maybe Pete was from Tejas originally.

----------


## JEStanek

Mike, get ready for it,

I only buy salsa with a two day approval period.

Back to the OP, I had a Kentucky KM140s from 2000. It was a good instrument. When set up properly, the tuners held tune, it intonated up the neck and was fun to play. I let scroll envy make me spend much more money on something that didn't sound much better for a while. The new inexpensive A-ovals Kentucky has have me intrigued.

Personally, I don't let the brand names bug me much. Does anyone honestly think mandolins were manufactured over 700 light years away in the constellation Orion (Rigel). What I don't like are dealers who misrepresent the origin of their instruments (I've seen websites advertise TC octaves as being made in Ireland!) or the Hand Carved Santini instruments on e-bay. I like full disclosure and get angry when shops lie to people.

I am very thankful for the inexpensive imports like Lonestar, Johnson, and Kentucky that got me started on the mando addiction. Eastman too, who I felt made a great mando for me to play on at a price I could afford. 

Dissing' these imports (which is for some in our community all they'll ever afford for themselves) is a lot like dissing your elementary school teachers for not being sophisticated enough once you've gone to college... Maybe that bad analogy only makes sense to me... If I hadn't have been hooked by those less expensive instruments I wouldn't find myself willingly paying much more for a couple of hand built ones by small shop builders. I bet I'm not alone in this progression either.

----------

kenikas, 

Michael Bridges, 

Steve Sorensen

----------


## Eric F.

> What I don't like are dealers who misrepresent the origin of their instruments (I've seen websites advertise TC octaves as being made in Ireland!) or the Hand Carved Santini instruments on e-bay. I like full disclosure and get angry when shops lie to people.


Jamie, I think you are confusing them with cheap imitations of the Santini!

----------


## Paul Hostetter

> Dissing' these imports (which is for some in our community all they'll ever afford for themselves) is a lot like dissing your elementary school teachers for not being sophisticated enough once you've gone to college...


Thank you for saying this, Jamie, I completely agree. I don't understand why people feel so threatened by improved entry-level instruments. My first guitar was an Airline (Kay) archtop, a horrendous piece of junk. If I could have instead started with "The Loar" archtop, it would have been a great relief and would have given me a bit more time before I had to scare up something better.

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## Bill Snyder

f5loar you did not take note of the  . I was being facetious.

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## Paul Hostetter



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## f5loar

I was being serious! Got to have my Texas Pete on my hot dogs and BBQ sandwiches.

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## Andrew B. Carlson

Ok, so when do you guys see the new km-1500 coming out? I'm thinking this could be my next mando since my current one is a less than impressive model.

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## UKSam

Well I went to visit Trevor down in Brighton yesterday at TAMCO and picked up a Kentucky KM-172 (the Amber round hole jobby) as a beater/knock about til the Shippey custom F-style I've ordered arrives later in the year.

It was bitterly cold, and my fingers were well and truly frozen so I only gave it a quick playing in the shop.. Got it home and gave it a good going over and I have to say its pretty impressive for the very small amount of cash involved!

Fit and finish is pretty reasonable, and sound is better than I expected. Its playable (I suspect Trevor did a good job on it and so its not guaranteed like that from the factory!) and I like it.

Thanks Trevor - good job, and a happy customer.

I personally think that if this one is representative of the general standard of Kentucky's then they are excellent value for the money and worth at least some of the hype. At least the 172 round hole is.

Sam

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## AquillaWindsong

lol

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## AquillaWindsong

I really enjoyed reading this post. I'm new to this sight and I say a beginner mando player. I owned an old taterbug when I was young and played around on it. Recently got a Gretsch New Yorker and it was unplayable so i took it back to guitar center and ended up bringing home another acoustic guitar ...what do I need two guitars for ?
Sooo I am going back today to trade up for another Mandolin cause I really love the beautiful tones they give. I was thinking of getting a KM 6something ( cant remember the numbers on it) that they have for 699.00 and was doing a bit of research. 
Now I am confused. 699.00 is alot of money to me and I thought the Kentucky was the best because of all the HYPE. Now I don't know what to think. I will however play it and see how it sounds and ease of play-ability. I really need one that projects and has a darker tone. I don't like the brightness of some mandos I've heard.
Any advice would be great !!!  
I write a very melodic type of hard rock/classical/celtic and am looking to get a deeper ,darker tone to go with my guitar. Geeesh I am confused and don't know what to get. Unfortunately we don't have much for mandolins here in Colorado. Can barely find good strings or straps for them. BTW it's nice to be here and I hope to learn from and make friends with you all  :Smile: ~* 
Peace and music,
Aquilla

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Zissou Intern

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## Ken Olmstead

Wow old thread!

Aquilla, my experience is that the Kentuckys (and most imports) will require a professional set-up in most cases to perform well (they save $$ here.) However, they generally sound quite decent once its setup to your liking and find the strings and pick that make it happen for you. The chances of buying an import of the rack at guitar center and having it ready to go is not at all likely.

I would call one of the vendors from this site, talk mandolins and order from them. They will include a setup in the price that will at least get you off and running. Also, they can play a couple different instruments on the phone so you can get an idea of sound. I personally would recommend a KM505. That is a really nice mandolin in the Kentucky line in your price range. The Eastman satin model is also a sweety!

While I agree that $700 is a lot of money, in the world of mandolin, it is only a start. Good luck!

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AquillaWindsong

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## AquillaWindsong

Thank you Ken !!!   
I will check into the 505  :Smile:

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## AquillaWindsong

I have some Elixir nanoweb strings in medium gauge ...was thinking that medium would help get the tone I'm looking for. What do you think Ken ?

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## Ken Olmstead

> I have some Elixir nanoweb strings in medium gauge ...was thinking that medium would help get the tone I'm looking for. What do you think Ken ?


Virtually impossible to tell. Sound is so personal. I like to shoot for David Grisman tones (whatever that really means). You have different musical tastes than the standard bluegrass that most of us latch onto so in a way you are lucky. You have no real sound expectation, just something that sounds good to you for your music. Try those elixers! d'Addario J74s are extremely popular so I would try those just to know what your mandolin sounds like with those. Don't be afraid to experiment the first few months and you will get it dialed in!

On my KM1050, I was sure I would just use my Blue Chip pick like on everything else, but this mando just sings with a regular old "Dawg" pick! So put the hype and preconceptions aside, buy a good serviceable mandolin and get it dialed in for you! 

It will work out with some commitment!

Oh and poke around this site, HUGE body of knowledge here!!

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AquillaWindsong

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## pheffernan

> I will check into the 505


You might want to check out the Eastman MD-505, especially if it's used and in your backyard: http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/74168.

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AquillaWindsong

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## Jim

Martin Bluegrass strings seem to have a darker tone than D'Addario j-74s on my Mandolins YMMV

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AquillaWindsong

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## AquillaWindsong

Thank you Ken, Pheffernan and Jim !!!
I took the other back and was prepared to buy the Kentucky if I liked the sound and the very honest salesman said " Here play this, You'll like it better " It was a Washburn A with O hole and I was blown away by the difference in projection, play-ability and performance ...It played like butter and sounded AMAZING. The Bass strings had a deep drone I could not resist. 
So I brought it home  :Smile:  And I cant keep my hands off of it ! 
I've already written 3 songs and learned "Battle of Evermore"
And to top it all off ....I saved 500.00 . Needless to say I am in Love !!!
Thank you for your replies  :Smile: 
Peace and Music,
Aquilla

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Ben Cooper

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## Ken Olmstead

Congrats man!

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AquillaWindsong

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## ollaimh

I just posted a thread on Kentucky mandolins.  I guess I will have to merge it.  I am curious about the different countries of manufacture and how that affects quality?  as one of the few mandolin players in my small community(outside the country and blue grass world) I get asked for advice often.  I rarely know what to say about Kentucky mandos as I have only player two.  they were great for under $300.  I have to say some pac rim cheap mandos are getting very good nowadays.

I have played a few bouviers, and they were fantastic for the price--very cheap and decent sounding.  I have played a few Eastman's and they were also good but I found although they were loud and had the chop, they lacked the warmth I look for, but then I am a celtic player.

for cheaper mandolins, the best I have found was an aspen, made in korea, by who knows who.  I owned the same mandolin twice.  I bought it for $210 with tax etc, and traded it for an epiphone caballero from the sixties (this was in the ninties), then a few years ago I found it hanging in a pawnshop in Vancouver, for $185, it had lost it's pickguard but I am an accurate picker and al most never mark a top.  it snapped it up. it still had my mark inside(I used to do that when I lived in Vancouver--big crime city.

so how do people rate a km 620, a km 630 fer instance. I have been asked about both.

of course I still say that for under a thousand, pre WW I gibsons are a steal. they may need some repair but if you get one without major flaws, they have a unique and great sound.  some are better than others but I have never heard one I didn't like.

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## op23

I bought a KM174 recently and ended up returning it. it had a nice sound to it but the way it was built you had to have the bridge so god damn high on it that it was tilting just to avoid strings buzzing against the frets. good sound bad quality. just my experience

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## almeriastrings

> I bought a KM174 recently and ended up returning it. it had a nice sound to it but the way it was built you had to have the bridge so god damn high on it that it was tilting just to avoid strings buzzing against the frets. good sound bad quality. just my experience


That is normally a setup issue. It merely stresses the critical importance of buying mandolins from a dealer who genuinely understands the instrument, and can guarantee delivery of one in playable condition. A good dealer will also reject any defective instruments - before you have to. You will pay a bit more in the first instance than you will from a "box shifter", but in my opinion, it is well worth it. Good setup and pre-shipping screening is important on guitars, but absolutely _vital_ on mandolins.

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Johnny60, 

Steve Zawacki

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## FLATROCK HILL

> I bought a KM174 recently and ended up returning it. it had a nice sound to it but the way it was built you had to have the bridge so god damn high on it that it was tilting just to avoid strings buzzing against the frets. good sound bad quality. just my experience


You can keep the saddle/bridge from leaning, by attending to it (holding it upright) while you slowly bring the strings up to tension.

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## jim simpson

Was at a guitar show today and had to bring this one (KM 805) home. It sounds great with old strings on it. I will put new wires on it and give it a proper workout. 
I used to own a KM 1000 (Sumi ) that had a rather large neck profile. It was the one feature that I wish had been different. This KM 805 has a much smaller profile which is closer to my preference.

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Ken Olmstead, 

Zissou Intern

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## Zissou Intern

Brother, that is a beautiful looking back! The grain on the back of my KM1050 looks nowhere near as nice. I have figure envy! Fortunately my 1050 has quite pleasing tone.

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jim simpson

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## fernmando

I just moved a recent Gibson VFern, and will be playing a Kentucky KM900 exclusively. I had a great Gibson, but in all truthfulness the Kentucky was just...better. Folks should get in on the KM900 from, I'd say, 2010 and up. Don't know for sure what the brand new ones are like, but mine is a monster.

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## Ken Olmstead

> Was at a guitar show today and had to bring this one (KM 805) home. It sounds great with old strings on it. I will put new wires on it and give it a proper workout. 
> I used to own a KM 1000 (Sumi ) that had a rather large neck profile. It was the one feature that I wish had been different. This KM 805 has a much smaller profile which is closer to my preference.


That is a beauty Jim congrats! I love the look of those 805s for some reason. Its not just the Sam Bush association either as I'm not a fan of the Gibson SB model for some reason. Well done!! Looks like someone changed the bridge on that one!

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## jim simpson

Thanks Ken,
I hadn't noticed the bridge. The tailpiece was changed to a Weber. Were they trying to emulate the Sam Bush look? If so, I'm glad they didn't go with the abbreviated fingerboard extension.

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## Ken Olmstead

> Thanks Ken,
> I hadn't noticed the bridge. The tailpiece was changed to a Weber. Were they trying to emulate the Sam Bush look? If so, I'm glad they didn't go with the abbreviated fingerboard extension.


Sorry, I keep saying bridge lately when I mean tailpiece!

F5 with block inlays is pretty Sammy! It does have an abbreviated fretboard extension, they just did it tastefully, rather than hack it off with a saw!  :Smile:

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## jurasicus

Hello! I'm new to this forum so sorry if this sort of question has already been asked before.
I'm looking for a new mandolin. I've been playing the Oscar Schmidt OM40 for a couple of years and now I want an upgrade. The main trouble is that I live in Russia, so I can't really get anything good from within the country. (In fact, I can't even get anything much better than the OM40 here.) But I have a friend in the US who plans to visit in a couple of months, so he can bring me one from there. 

So I've been thinking of buying the KM-1000, because it generally gets a lot of praise, so it is probably the safest option to buy without the possibility to go and check it out personally in the store. The question is how do Kentucky mandolins from different years and countries (generally) compare? I have an obvious choice to buy one from Amazon. It's probably quite new and from what I can gather, I'm guessing, Chinese. It costs around $1500 there. And also I have found a seller on eBay that is selling a Korean one from 2002 for about $1000. (By the way, another question is where do I look for used mandolins in the US?) Obviously, the option of buying a used one feels a bit less safe for me than buying it new, and I have read somewhere that actually generally the newer Kentucky mandos are better than ones from, for example, the early 2000s. But if some of you have had any personal experience regarding this question, I would greatly appreciate any guidance.

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## Eric C.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/107914#107914

I'd jump all over this KM1000 if I was in the market for one.... Now I kind of wish I was in the market for one..

NFI

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## CES

I agree that newer Kentucky mandolins are generally much better than those from, say, 2002-2005 or 2006. I own a 675S built the first year they moved to China, and they were still working out some kinks. Their master class instruments are now very well built. Also, there are some older gems built in Japan, but they don't turn up used very often.

If you go the Amazon route you'll most likely have to do set up yourself. If you buy used from the cafe classifieds or buy new/used from one of the cafe sponsors, it should come to you ready to play. If your friend can purchase here and bring it as a carry on item it will save you shipping costs and probably import fees, but there's the risk he'll be required to check it, which could end disastrously if it's not in a flight case. Good luck!!

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## Andrew B. Carlson

I got on off the classifieds here a few years ago and it's awesome. Forum members are generally good and honest people who will already have it set up. They come up a couple times a month in the classifieds section. You'll save a few hundred and get a great mando.

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