# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  70281 Loar has been worked on by Steve Gilchrist

## Mandolin Cafe

This informating has been floating around for some time but not public but we're putting an end to that now that someone already posted a photo of it on social media somewhere and there are apparently multiple articles about it in process, or said to be. There are other pictures and we know who has them so we'll see if they get posted or not. It's currently at Carter Vintage Guitars. We obtained the photo below from someone working on a story about it. About all we know, or will own up to  :Smile: .

Links to the current record on Mandolin Archive, pre-work.

After


Before

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AlanN, 

Bernie Daniel, 

Bob Bass, 

DataNick, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Gary Hedrick, 

hank, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Mando-Mauler, 

masa618, 

Paul Statman

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## CWRoyds

Absolutely beautiful. He did an astounding job. I love how he left the scroll wear. It looks perfect.  :Smile:

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## William Smith

Looks fantastic, Spectacular job by Mr.Gilchrist! We all knew it would :Wink:

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## AlanN

Wowee.

I'd love to pick on it (again).

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## Don Grieser

The Wood Butcher done good.

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## Andrew B. Carlson

Great job Steve!

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## mandotool

last years hand off of 70281 @ Carters..
Steven Gilchrist ...Paul Duff ...Christie Carter

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## Mandolin Cafe

FYI - Top photo is courtesy of Greg Bass who is doing a piece for NPR on it.

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## Willie Poole

I have read where a lot of folks say that you should leave them alone and not make any changes to a Loar but this is why I think those people are wrong, in no way could doing something like Steve did change he value of the mandolin, if it does then it would be worth more in my opinion, a great restoring job...

    Willie

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Amazing job! I wonder what Steve actually did to that Loar.

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## mandolin74

Howdy Alan!  Well I picked on it Tuesday night at Carter's.  Knocked my socks off.  Have played maybe 15-20 loars in my lifetime.  I believe this one takes the cake.  Tuned between a C# and D according to Gilchrist.  Very even sounding but has really nice low's.  Steve is amazing.  His talent never ceases to amaze me.  Stay tuned and keep your eye out for a little video sample on Carter's website of me giving it a test run.  Marc M.

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AlanN, 

Bernie Daniel, 

BrettMoore, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Mandolin Cafe

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## AlanN

Marc, you rascal! Looking forward to seeing/hearing it in your lovely and talented hands.

Does it still have that zing! to the E string? That really knocked me out.

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## Spruce

> Amazing job! I wonder what Steve actually did to that Loar.


+1...

...and, maybe the back story as to how the damage was done?
I seem to remember something involving biblical flooding or something?   
I'm sure NPR will _nail_ the details, right?    :Disbelief:   :Wink: 

Needs to be played a bit by someone like me with a careless right hand and maybe a weedeater with a Blue Chip attached...    :Wink: 

Nice work, Steve...

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## Mandolin Cafe

This was a cell phone shot from 4 days ago.

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Mando-Mauler, 

Paul Statman

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## Mandolin Cafe

Sierra Hull spent some time with it and sent this out to her 60K followers on Facebook/and 10K on Twitter.

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## Mark Wilson

> ...and, maybe the back story as to how the damage was done?.


+1

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## Phil Goodson

So is this the earliest known Loar F5 now existing? (6-1-22)

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## Mandolin Cafe

> So is this the earliest known Loar F5 now existing? (6-1-22)


Not a reply to your question, just a resource at Mandolin Archive.

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Jeff Mando, 

Phil Goodson

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## mandolin74

> Marc, you rascal! Looking forward to seeing/hearing it in your lovely and talented hands.
> 
> Does it still have that zing! to the E string? That really knocked me out.


Hey Alan! Yes sir the E string is killer.  Love the tone!  It is a pretty remarkable instrument.  Boy I wish it were mine!!! Makes you play things you don't normally play.

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AlanN, 

Clement Barrera-Ng, 

Paul Statman

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## goaty76

I notice that the tailpiece cover is engraved in the standard style as opposed to the Loar style. Is it a replacement or was this made prior to the "new" Loar style engraving style?

Phil

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RichieK

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## Phil Goodson

> Not a reply to your question, just a resource at Mandolin Archive.


Thanks.  My question really is:  Since we know that many of our members have "insider information" and since all known Loars haven't been registered at the Archive,   are there any "believable rumors" of existing Loar F5s that were signed before June 1922?

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## Darryl Wolfe

Evidence exists that there "MAY" have been two before this one.  However, those mandolins may or may not exist.  The only shred we have is a pickguard that was originally installed on a July 9, 1923 Loar with 70279 scratched one the back.  That pickguard is crude and single bound exactly like the one here

Unless one of those turns up, this is the prototype or first born/sold to the public one

The subject mandolin here meets all of the "spec sheet data", that was subsequently revised before full production began...double bound, and such...experimental pickguard and bracket.  I believe that the tailpiece cover is original to the mandolin as they likely did not make a one-off for it at the time

I documented this mandolin in 1977.  At that time, nobody was tracking serial numbers and dates.  I recognized that it preceded all known Loars by 5 months 

I can attest that it is the best sounding Loar I have ever played.  That comment is predicated upon wanting a Loar to sound like Bill Monroe.   This mandolin sounds more like Monroe's Loar than Monroe's Loar if that makes any sense

I can add more information at a later time

Mr. Gilchrist was nice enough to keep me informed on the progress during the one year restoration.  I am not at liberty to share pictures and details of the methodology at this moment

I can assure you that this mandolin repair is a near miracle.  The original finish was under the ugly and is nearly all intact.  Getting it all to what you see now was the miracle

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AlanN, 

Benjamin T, 

Bob Bass, 

BradKlein, 

Clement Barrera-Ng, 

DataNick, 

Drew Egerton, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

George R. Lane, 

jasona, 

Mark Wilson, 

Paul Statman, 

Phil Goodson, 

Reid Morsi, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

Spruce

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## Darryl Wolfe

One of the paragraphs I typed somehow disappeared.

With respect to documenting the mandolin in1977....

Mr. Pat Holland of Eastern NC owned the mandolin and graciously let me play and inspect it.  At the time I was 24 or 25 and he had many years on me.  He said that he had owned it some 20 years and that it came from NJ, NY, Del area (this part is fuzzy).  The crack damage and wood putty repair was there when he got it.  Mr. Holland was a local musician and the mandolin was known locally as like Monroes, but word never got out beforehand.  He passed away a few years ago.  Most of the pictures on the MandolinArchive link are from that 1977 encounter.  My Dad ran into him maybe a decade later and took a few more that are on the link

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AlanN, 

Benjamin T, 

Bob Bass, 

hank, 

Mark Wilson, 

Phil Goodson

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

Truly remarkable work, and the very first Loar to boot. I seem to remember hearing something about this last year and glad to see it finally came to fruition. Looking forward to the NPR piece; maybe there will be a book or documentary not long in the future?

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## fatt-dad

> <snip> 
> 
> I can attest that it is the best sounding Loar I have ever played.  That comment is predicated upon wanting a Loar to sound like Bill Monroe.   This mandolin sounds more like Monroe's Loar than Monroe's Loar if that makes any sense
> 
> <snip>


best sounding under crack and putty or under the new top?

f-d

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## mandotool

> best sounding under crack and putty or under the new top?
> 
> f-d


 Pretty sure this was the July 9 "tonewood putty" in question..

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## George R. Lane

> Pretty sure this was the July 9 "tonewood putty" in question..



That is what they use to fill the bolt holes and fill the seams of the three piece top on my pool table.

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## Darryl Wolfe

As was Fattdad...under crack and putty..

I just had a conversation with Gilchrist and he says he is relieved that it actually sounds better now

Again, I'm not at liberty to say much more...last post on subject until later

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Phil Goodson, 

Rush Burkhardt

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## jim simpson

"I can assure you that this mandolin repair is a near miracle. The original finish was under the ugly and is nearly all intact. Getting it all to what you see now was the miracle"  Darryl Wolfe

I'm going to guess that surface was lower on the side of the crack where it was filled with the putty and that the putty's job was to level and fix the crack (in the mind of whoever did the putty applying). That would explain to me how there is only the one crack repair visible now (an excellent job!) and not a wide patch of wood in it's place. It would be cool to see in-progress photos of the repair. Perhaps to follow?

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Charles E.

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## Charles E.

I imagine Steve spent a LOT of time with solvents, Q-tips,tiny scrapers and deionized water to clean the top and redo that crack. Looks like it came out beautiful. Nice to know that the original finish was intact under that mess. Great work.

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## Ivan Kelsall

The info.given on the Mandolin Archive doesn't _state_ that this is the 'first' know Lloyd Loar Gibson. It gives the date,serial # etc.,but unless you're familiar with Gibson's dates ,numbering system etc.,you'd bever know that it was the 'first born'. If i hadn't read the article re.the mandolin going to Steve Gilchrist (last year ?),i'd never have known what it was. So maybe the archive could be amended to aknowledge this instrument's unique place in the Loar hierarchy ?.

   Regarding Steve Gilchrist's work - totally first class,incredible,awesome ................... !!.  :Disbelief:  That must be THE Loar to own right now - & would i take it out to play ? - you bet - stunning !,
                       Ivan :Wink:

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## HoGo

Have you, folks, seen this?

http://www.gilchristmandolins.com/restorations/

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Bob Bass, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Fretbear, 

hank, 

jim simpson, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

Spruce

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## Skittle

Is there now any video clips of this 1st Loar being played, by Grisman, or Sierra?

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## Fretbear

While we're waiting, who is this?
It looks like Pee Wee's Loar has been well played since it left G's shop.

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## William Smith

> Is there now any video clips of this 1st Loar being played, by Grisman, or Sierra?


Yes there is a youtube video of Dawg giving her a spin at Carters before the fix.

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## Phil Goodson

> Yes there is a youtube video of Dawg giving her a spin at Carters before the fix.


You're welcome.

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Jeff Mando

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## pheffernan

> Sierra Hull spent some time with it and sent this out to her 60K followers on Facebook/and 10K on Twitter.


I would love for the stars to align somehow and for 70281 to become Sierra's Loar.

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## William Smith

> I would love for the stars to align somehow and for 70281 to become Sierra's Loar.


I wouldn't mind if the stars aligned so it would become my Loar :Grin:

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Timbofood

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## carleshicks

> You're welcome.


The way the notes pop off when Dawg plays that Loar are amazing.

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## Jeff Mando

> The way the notes pop off when Dawg plays that Loar are amazing.


It really sounds great in his hands!  The Carter video seems to have cut off the last note for some reason?

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## Hendrik Ahrend

> Have you, folks, seen this?
> 
> http://www.gilchristmandolins.com/restorations/


Thanks for posting that, Adrian. That Loar #75325 is the very mandolin our fellow MC member John Hamlett worked on, mentioned in this thread: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...18-Celebration

John says it's very good sounding, remarkable after those complex and amazing repairs.
FYI #75325 revealed its FON being 11965, an even earlier '23 FON than 11985, on one known Dec. '24 signed and later unsigned Loars.

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Bob Bass

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## fscotte

Let's see...

Sounds more like Monroe Tone than Monroe's axe...

Both received damage...

Hmmm.....

Now where'd I put that hammer....

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## Tom C

> +1...
> 
> ...and, maybe the back story as to how the damage was done?
> I seem to remember something involving biblical flooding or something?   
> I'm sure NPR will _nail_ the details, right?    
> 
> Needs to be played a bit by someone like me with a careless right hand and maybe a weedeater with a Blue Chip attached...   
> 
> Nice work, Steve...




I recall that mando also as being in a flood with pics before and after the repair. (Pre-Gil repair)

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## carleshicks

> Have you, folks, seen this?
> 
> http://www.gilchristmandolins.com/restorations/


That is amazing, how have I never noticed this before.

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## fscotte

Yeah its not everyday you get to see the interior of a Loar.  Thanks to Steve for posting this.

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## HoGo

> That is amazing, how have I never noticed this before.


I think that section is quite new on Mr.G's site....

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hank

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## HoGo

> I recall that mando also as being in a flood with pics before and after the repair. (Pre-Gil repair)


I don't think 70281 was in flood, but there were apparently at least two documented Loars that were in flood (I think they both were restored by Mr.Gilchrist). One of them is on his site, the other one, if my memory serves well, was refinished in 30's.

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## Steve VandeWater

Absolutely stunning work by a master. Great job Mr. Gilchrist!

And I'm sure he would disagree wholeheartedly with my signature line below!

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## danb

> Have you, folks, seen this?
> 
> http://www.gilchristmandolins.com/restorations/


This image here is one of the cooler ones I've seen so far through Loar documentation.. the exposed FON under the signature label! This is quite a cool thing as FONs on "unsigned" loars are very very close in FON

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hank, 

Rush Burkhardt

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## danb

> The info.given on the Mandolin Archive doesn't _state_ that this is the 'first' know Lloyd Loar Gibson. It gives the date,serial # etc.,but unless you're familiar with Gibson's dates ,numbering system etc.,you'd bever know that it was the 'first born'. If i hadn't read the article re.the mandolin going to Steve Gilchrist (last year ?),i'd never have known what it was. So maybe the archive could be amended to aknowledge this instrument's unique place in the Loar hierarchy ?.


Well in this case particularly, see Darryl's other comment about an additional "prototype" style pickguard that has a very near serial number scratched on the reverse.

In this (*very rare*) case I'm much more convinced than Darryl seems to be. I present  the fact that a _serial number_ was scratched on a pickguard with binding style matching 70281 is very convincing evidence to me that at least one more existed at some point. 

As a further clarification.. it's not uncommon to see serial numbers on certain parts. I've personally seen them on the backs of pickguards of various models, and on the underside of the bridge base (along with T for treble and B for bass!).

If we follow Joe Spann's documented theories, factory order numbers could well be assigned to prototypes and things that never shipped or saw light of day, but a _serial number_ existed for warranty reasons and to document a shipped instrument. This convinces me much futher than would just a FON, for example, that this was a real instrument likely shipped to a real customer or endorser.

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hank, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Paul Statman, 

Timbofood

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## Hendrik Ahrend

> This image here is one of the cooler ones I've seen so far through Loar documentation.. the exposed FON under the signature label! This is quite a cool thing as FONs on "unsigned" loars are very very close in FON


A cool image, as you say, Dan. May I humbly point out that Loar #79835, signed Dec. 1924, has the exact FON as the "unsigned" Loars. And according to Joe Spam, both FONs 11065 and 11985 are from 1923.
I still suspect that all Loar F5s, except maybe for the Fern Loars - which are significantly different - were made in 1922 and 1923, sans tuners and signature label until just prior to shipping.

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## danb

> A cool image, as you say, Dan. May I humbly point out that Loar #79835, signed Dec. 1924, has the exact FON as the "unsigned" Loars. And according to Joe Spam, both FONs 11065 and 11985 are from 1923.
> I still suspect that all Loar F5s, except maybe for the Fern Loars - which are significantly different - were made in 1922 and 1923, sans tuners and signature label until just prior to shipping.


Yes, I've heard a convincing theory that the order book was basically just a common receipt book paired with a simple ink stamper that lets you change the digits. The logic went that one of these books reached 999 or 9999 you'd get a new one. Sometimes the numbers jump around a little making some boundaries confusing, but generally they go in the sequence that they were built.

There are other theories that there were specialists or consultants involved in building the F5s- not all done by the same guys working on the main volume builds. Could be. There's a convincing case that Ed Heron-Allen was a finish consultant, as much of the _violin making as it is and was_ book seems on the mark for Loar finish.

Back to 70281- yes indeed it is the earliest known signed Loar. I expect that there were a couple more with earlier serials built (so likely shipped!), and then probably more that never made it out the door. It's a leap of faith to say that these "great" sounding ones (the '22s I've seen are unusually mighty) were made as a completed whole without any research or castaways or mistakes too!

But essentially it boils down to a couple things:
- probably 95% of the factors to make great mandolins existed before and after Loar at Gibson
- The early ones show experimental phases and features, the later ones are more uniform..  the changes probably involved scaling up operations, making more at a time. 
- the signature labels correlate with a lot of the great ones, hence they command great value and certainty

Even from just those sound clips, I already think that 70281 is perhaps more interesting as the _best-sounding_ Loar I've ever heard.

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DataNick, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Mandolin Cafe, 

Paul Statman

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## Atlanta Mando Mike

Lord that mandolin sounds good in Grisman's hands...but then again, so would a cardboard cutout of a mandolin.  Nobody has better tone than Dawg.

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Glassweb, 

Paul Statman, 

sgarrity, 

Timbofood

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## Drew Streip

> Let's see...
> 
> Sounds more like Monroe Tone than Monroe's axe...
> 
> Both received damage...
> 
> Hmmm.....
> 
> Now where'd I put that hammer....


I took my mandolin to Asheville this weekend and was not able to insulate my mandolin from the cold weather. Then I read this thread and started thinking, a crack might not be the worst thing in the world!  :Wink:

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DataNick

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## Phil Goodson

Just heard that the entire story of this repair, described by Steve Gilchrist and complete with pictures will be published in the January issue of the Fretboard Journal #38.   Can't wait.      BTW, a partial article is on their website.

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DataNick, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

Steve-o

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## Mike Black

> Just heard that the entire story of this repair, described by Steve Gilchrist and complete with pictures will be published in the January issue of the Fretboard Journal #38.   Can't wait.      BTW, a partial article is on their website.


It's there now!  

https://www.fretboardjournal.com/fea...s-second-life/

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Drew Egerton, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

michaelcj

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## f5loar

It's been what 94 years and there has not been another one to surface between this June 1 and the next one at Nov. 28.  I'd say there ain't another one.  Likely this June 1 kept going back for experimental re-dos.  There are however a few missing serial nos. from the Nov. 28 and Dec. 20. dates so possible one of those missing ones could be another proto-type.

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## Hendrik Ahrend

> It's been what 94 years and there has not been another one to surface between this June 1 and the next one at Nov. 28.  I'd say there ain't another one.  Likely this June 1 kept going back for experimental re-dos.  There are however a few missing serial nos. from the Nov. 28 and Dec. 20. dates so possible one of those missing ones could be another proto-type.


As Joe Spann indicates, roughly, the ser.-#s can be linked to shipping and warranty purposes, the FONs to the manufacturing process. Since we actually have a pick guard with a #70279 stamp, there should be a good chance for an F5 #70279 to have existed at some point or even exist - a pre #70281 F5, that is.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Mike - My grateful thanks for the Fretboard Journal link. We all knew that the mandolin had been badly damaged,but i was horrified to see just how severe the damage actually was. This has to go down as a spectacular restoration alongside Charlie Derrington's Bill Monroe Loar restoration (IMHO). Truly awesomer skill & workmanship.                                                                                        I wish somebody would do the same for Bill Monroe's Loar - maybe someday when the whole stupidity of keeping it in a glass case to be gawked at is realised,but i won't hold my breath !, :Mad: 
                                                                                                          Ivan :Wink:

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## Phil Goodson

> Mike - My grateful thanks for the Fretboard Journal link. We all knew that the mandolin had been badly damaged,but i was horrified to see just how severe the damage actually was. This has to go down as a spectacular restoration alongside Charlie Derrington's Bill Monroe Loar restoration (IMHO). Truly awesomer skill & workmanship.                                                                                        I wish somebody would do the same for Bill Monroe's Loar - maybe someday when the whole stupidity of keeping it in a glass case to be gawked at is realised,but i won't hold my breath !,
>                                                                                                           Ivan


Are you suggesting re-doing Charlie Derrington's restoration????

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## HoGo

> Are you suggesting re-doing Charlie Derrington's restoration????


Now that's impossible as CD used epoxy to glue it back together. And he had to darken the finish considerably to hide the repairs. I believe the repair could be cleaner if he just took the time and glued it back splinter after splinter with HHG (now loking at the pics of 70281 the damage of Monroes Loar looks like quite starightforward job). Gilchrist didn't have the comfort of clean fresh surfaces but ugly mess of chips and old filler and crossgrain cuts and breaks. And once he wants to redo the work, his use of HHG makes it possible.

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Ivan Kelsall

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## Ivan Kelsall

In answer to Philpool's question - Of course not. IMHO,Bill's iconic mandolin should be inspected by somebody like Steve Gilchrist, & if anything needs doing to put it in good playing order,it should be done. I'm thinking more in terms of a neck re-set / re-fret etc. rather than 'body work'.
  Is Bill Monroe's mandolin inspected periodically to ensure it's stability,or is it simply left to deteriorate ?, :Frown: 
                                                                                                                                            Ivan

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## Fretbear

Just subscribed to FJ to be sure to receive the full article and pictures. There is one shot of the top at an acute angle where you can see the top "filler", which reassured me that SG is still actually a human being; as he says, when looked at straight down, you can imagine that nothing happened. An absolutely outstanding restoration.

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## Tavy

> Just subscribed to FJ to be sure to receive the full article and pictures. There is one shot of the top at an acute angle where you can see the top "filler", which reassured me that SG is still actually a human being; as he says, when looked at straight down, you can imagine that nothing happened. An absolutely outstanding restoration.


+1.

Close up it looks like the mess of lines where it was put back together are visible, but compared to what it was before it's amazing.  Besides as Steve said, best cosmetic solution was to just replace the whole of one side of the top, or failing that at least refinish.  The most important thing is that it's stable, playable, and sounding great again.  And of course that the owner is happy - whoever they are I bet they are too  :Smile:

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## mandotool

Steve has put up an overview of the restoration on his site ..
Lots more photos and detail....and a sound clip..
Good on ye Steve .

http://www.gilchristmandolins.com/70281-restore

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Jeff Mando

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## JAK

Seems like it should have an additional label, reading, "Restored by Steve Gilchrist, October 2016."

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## mandotool

More music from Steve Gilchrist..
Playing the Monroe tune "Jekyll Island" and backed by an original lineup of bluegrass boys..Tom Ewing (guitar), Blake Williams (banjo), Glen Duncan (fiddle) and Mark Hembree (bass)....And some nice twinning with Mike Compton.
Monroe camp 2015 concert at Carter Vintage..

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## mandotool

Hmmm...lemmy try that link again..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9q7ohjAc6E

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## JAK

There is a video on You Tube posted today (11/26/16) of Mark Maglashan playing this mandolin.

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## Hendrik Ahrend

> There is a video on You Tube posted today (11/26/16) of Mark Maglashan playing this mandolin.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxUVeyNk9Ig

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FLATROCK HILL, 

JAK

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## Don Grieser

Old Ebeneezer Scrooge. Love that E string. Let me embed that for posterity.

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carleshicks, 

Tavy

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## Fretbear

That original fret placement is so outrageously off; Steve's picture puts an end to any argument on that matter......

"Gibson fretboards are terrible, and the Loar years the worst......"

Norman Blake

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