# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  Jerusalem Ridge-- History?

## man dough nollij

I'm looking for the next tune I want to learn, and I've perusing the Monroe classics on YouTube to pick the next one.

This is a good clip. It says in the beginning that Bill wrote this tune, but he only plays rhythm/chops on it. 

Isn't that sort of strange that he would write a song for fiddle where he only got to play backup? I realize that it can be done the other way, with mandolin doing the melody and fiddle doing the backup, but it struck me as odd.

Never met the guy myself, but he seems to have a reputation as being a rather strong willed, if not ego-driven sort of dude. Not the kind of guy that would write a song where his role was "second fiddle". 

Thoughts?  :Confused:

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## Mike Bunting

He wrote fiddle tunes and mandolin tunes. Monroe was an artist and his "strong will" was focussed on creating music, not vehicles to showcase his playing.

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## Patrick Gunning

You can hear Bill play the mandolin part on a number of recordings, including the inimitable "Kenny Baker Plays Bill Monroe."  His lead part is much less developed than Kenny's fiddle part, and he doesn't play the "D" part on mando (at least in that recording).  I personally suspect Monroe had some of the original song structure, and showed it to Baker, who filled in the rest of the melodic nuance.  Bill, as bandleader, and the one cutting Baker's paychecks, was credited as songwriter.  

I don't buy for one minute that he wrote the whole fiddle melody.

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## mandozilla

Lee I've heard recordings of WSM picking Jerusalem Ridge and not just chopping rhythm...and it's pretty cool.  :Cool: 

Bill wrote tunes with a certain instrument in mind. For example; Rawhide, Kentucky Mandolin, Bluegrass stomp featured primarily the mandolin. Pike County Breakdown, Salt Creek, featured primarily the b**jo, but most of his tunes featured primarily the fiddle. Bill loved the fiddle and fiddle music.  :Grin: 

Bill was a very proud man with a 19th century soul...I met Bill twice in my life and you could tell he really valued his fans.  :Wink: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## ralph johansson

on monroe's original recording pike county breakdown was  a mandolin tune. 

he did not write salt creek, a k a salt river, which is a traditional
fiddle tune. 

jerusalem ridge was written at a hotel in ashland, kentucky, in august 1970. monroe brought the 3rd part and had kenny baker play suggestions for the other parts.

 baker came up with many, if not most, of the ideas, and monroe made the decisions. baker insisted they were monroe's ideas, "i don't want credit and i don't expect any".

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## evanreilly

*This may be the 'definitive' answer to the authorship question:
*

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## GTG

I too heard that Baker came up with 'a good chunk' of the melody, but was happy to let Monroe take credit. I can't remember where I read this, tho...

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## woodwizard

That is a GREAT!! tune. Who ever wrote it. One of my favorite Monroe tunes for sure.

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## Pete Counter

I dont understand why this thing keeps going. I've heard Kenny Baker say with his own mouth on several occations that Bill Monroe wrote the song. I know in the old days the band leader got credit for what his guys write and WSM did this as well, but 13 years after monroe's death, Baker hasnt changed his story. I've never even heard him imply any differnt. I dont think he ever will cuz...maybe...just maybe.....Bill _did_ write it. He _was_ known to write a few killer tunes!

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## Ivan Kelsall

IMHO _"Jerusalem Ridge"_ is as synonymous with Bill Monroe as _"Rawhide"_ & for me,it's also a 'better' tune,in that it does seem to invoke images of the area close to Bill Monroe's home in Rosine. I've sort of shied away from the tune until now,thinking that it's not a 'solo' piece (it never was),but i've been putting the sections together for a couple of weeks now & it does work nicely as a 'Mandolin only' tune - whatever, it's one of my very favourite Monroe numbers. It's tuneful,& unlike the 'Mando-thrash' that _"Rawhide"_ often becomes,requires a delicacy in it's playing to get the best from it (purely my thoughts),
                                                  Saska  :Wink:

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## mandozilla

It would seem from their remarks that some of the 'Monroe didn't write it' crowd are impyling that Bill was too much of a *hayseed* to write such a sophisticated piece as Jerusalem Ridge and like to stir the pot on these typres of dicussions.  :Disbelief:   :Mad:   :Popcorn: 

If Kenny Baker says Bill wrote Jerusalem Ridge, that's good enough for me.  :Grin: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Patrick Gunning

Mandozilla, my intention certainly wasn't to call Mr. Monroe a hayseed, and I didn't say he had nothing to do with the song.  What I intended to convey was more of a co-writing session, which seems to be the story Ralph related in his anecdote. It'd be pretty hard to argue that as an instrumentalist, Monroe had the melodic nuance of Baker (and I say this with no intent to disparage, Monroe showed his greatness in myriad ways).




> If Kenny Baker says Bill wrote Jerusalem Ridge, that's good enough for me.


Ah, but what if Bill Monroe says Kenny Baker wrote the tune?  I present Exhibit A, Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys live in Eugene, OR in 1977.  To quote: 

_"It's time now for Kenny Baker to fiddle for you, and he's picked out a number I hope you will enjoy.  It's one of his great numbers, he has it in one of his albums, and it's entitled "Jerusalem Ridge"_
-Bill Monroe (1977)

Kenny goes on to play the song, with no break from Bill.  I've attached the .mp3 of that moment, plus Kenny's excellent playing on a fantastic-sounding soundboard feed.  I almost prefer this cut to his album version.  If you want the full set (which I highly recommend, it sounds better than some of Bill's studio records), it can be downloaded here.

*stirs pot, watches come to slow boil*

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## Patrick Gunning

The more I think about this, the more I find it hilarious.  Bill says Kenny wrote the tune, Kenny says Bill wrote it.  It's sort of like two old friends arguing about who will treat the other to dinner or something...

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## mandozilla

> "It's time now for Kenny Baker to fiddle for you, and he's picked out a number I hope you will enjoy. *It's one of his great numbers*, he has it in one of his albums, and it's entitled "Jerusalem Ridge"


By saying that one could say that Bill was indeed saying that Kenny wrote Jerusalem Ridge.  :Grin:  On the other hand he could merely be stating that Jerusalem Ridge is one of the tunes Kenny plays the best!  :Grin: 

In the final analysis, who cares really? And what does it matter? It's a beautiful tune so lets all have fun playing it and just enjoy it.  :Laughing:   :Laughing: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Fretbear

Here is my version...I'm playing the lead guitar parts and full mandolin break in the middle...I think it's his best tune, even considering the Master of Bluegrass LP.....

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## man dough nollij

I didn't even know about the Baker/ Monroe controversy when I posted this thread, and I don't really care too much about that. 

My question was more why a mandolin virtuoso would write a song for fiddle, and perform it in his band, with his only contribution some chop/chop?

I have heard somewhere (here) that mandolin was not Bill's first choice of instrument-- he just kinda got stuck there. 

How good was Bill as a fiddler? Is it possible that he wrote the tune for fiddle, then just handed it off to his fiddle player? I've personally never seen footage of Mr. Monroe playing fiddle, but I'm coming in late, and not that knowledgeable about this "legends of Bluegrass" stuff. 

I suppose there's the possibility that he wrote for fiddle, but by way of the structure of the band, never performed it on fiddle. Eh? 
 :Mandosmiley:  :Popcorn:  :Mandosmiley:

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## mandozilla

> with his only contribution some chop/chop?


Again Lee, only tonight I heard BM & his BGB's recording where Bill played the A & B parts but not the C part...And did a mighty fine job of it too I might add.  :Grin: 




> I have heard somewhere (here) that mandolin was not Bill's first choice of instrument


That's true. Charlie got the guitar, Birch got the fiddle, and *Bill got stuck with the mandolin.*  :Laughing: 




> How good was Bill as a fiddler?


From what I heard, not real good...but that's OK, because of all these things, we have Bluegrass Music and a wonderful style of mandolin playing to study and enjoy.  :Cool: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## ralph johansson

> I dont understand why this thing keeps going. I've heard Kenny Baker say with his own mouth on several occations that Bill Monroe wrote the song. I know in the old days the band leader got credit for what his guys write and WSM did this as well, but 13 years after monroe's death, Baker hasnt changed his story. I've never even heard him imply any differnt. I dont think he ever will cuz...maybe...just maybe.....Bill _did_ write it. He _was_ known to write a few killer tunes!


you don't understand? someone asked a question and i gave the answer because i know it - and i have never seen it given on the cafe. i've searched.
there are those who believe that monroe's own words are the final truth and there are those who knew someone who knew baker and knew he brought it fully composed to the group, etc.


 i thought the purpose of a forum was to share knowledge and information but it seems i was mistaken.  i hoped to share some insight into monroe's working methods. 

as for baker not changing his story, this happens to be his story, told to mark o'connor, and published in 1993, in the insert to the cd "heroes". so if you're accusing anyone of lying i do not want credit.

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## Ivan Kelsall

From what i've heard /read,Bill Monroe wasn't bothered about being the 'star player' in the Band,it was enough for him that he was the _'BOSS_'. I believe he was more interested in 'the sound' of his band & if that meant coming up with a tune for any instrument other than the Mandolin,that was fine.We all know thet he greatly admired his Uncle Pen for his fine fiddle playing & i personally believe that the Fiddle was Monroe's 'favourite' instrument.He used to use twin fiddles when he could get them & more if possible on occasion. It seems entirely in keeping with his outlook that he could come up with a tune (or the basics) & let Kenny Baker add his own touches to it. As long as it turned out the way Monroe wanted,i think that would be just fine with him. Bill Monroe might have had his sour points,but supressing the talent of his band members wasn't one of them - if they shone,so did his entire band,
                                             Saska :Wink:

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## evanreilly

*In my not-so-humble opinion, I agree with John Hartford's analysis of Bill Monroe's relationship to the fiddle.  Hartford called Monroe a great old-time fiddle player who happened to play the mandolin (listen to "The Cross-eyed Child").  I have some live recordings where Bill states he likes the Blue Grass and other music, but really loves playing old-time fiddle tunes.  He clearly was a fiddle player at heart and adapted to the mandolin.
As far as writing tunes for various instruments, Bill probably wrote more 'fiddle tunes' than instrumentals for all the other instruments.

And, for kicks, who has heard the tune he wrote for Trombone and mandolin? 

And, just because I can, I am sharing a live version of WSM playing all four (4!!!) parts of Jerusalem Ridge.  Brought to you courtesy of the other mandolin player on the cut. 
Listen carefully!

*

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## TMitchell

That's a terrific version of JR on your site, Fretbear.  Thanks for sharing. :Mandosmiley:

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## earthsave

Heck all he did was take 12 tones and put in a pleasing order.  It's not like he created a new note or something. :Laughing:

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## foggyvalley

I to had heard the history as a tune Mr. Monroe wrote about a area around the old homestead. Great tune, played fast or slow. My wife and I did a mando/fiddle duet of is slow in church last week,most appreciated it :Smile:

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## Chris Wofford

Yes, but without Monroe those notes would never have been played in such a hard driving way with that high lonesome sound.   :Smile:

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## Mike Bunting

> I
> My question was more why a mandolin virtuoso would write a song for fiddle, and perform it in his band, with his only contribution some chop/chop?
>  Eh?


Why not?

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## Pete Counter

> you don't understand? someone asked a question and i gave the answer because i know it - and i have never seen it given on the cafe. i've searched.
> there are those who believe that monroe's own words are the final truth and there are those who knew someone who knew baker and knew he brought it fully composed to the group, etc.
> 
> 
>  i thought the purpose of a forum was to share knowledge and information but it seems i was mistaken.  i hoped to share some insight into monroe's working methods. 
> 
> as for baker not changing his story, this happens to be his story, told to mark o'connor, and published in 1993, in the insert to the cd "heroes". so if you're accusing anyone of lying i do not want credit.


Eeeeeezy Ralph, Nobody called you nothin. What I dont understand why Baker keeps being called a liar, when time after time he said Bill wrote the tune. As for the quote earlier, I dont hear monroe saying baker wrote it, but he is without argument the "star" of that tune. Has anyone heard monroe say the phrase "Kenny wrote the tune"? I have heard Baker say the phrase "Bill wrote the tune". It seems people dont like that idea and need to change it. Thats what I dont understand. And I didnt mean to Get your nose out of joint with my thought on it. My apology.  We all sposed to luv each other, Your still my friend ralph, OK?

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## mandozilla

> "Bill wrote the tune". It seems people dont like that idea and need to change it.


That's exactly what I want to understand. It appears some folks have a need to tear down others, or others' work, whom they have a dislike, or even hatred for. Isn't it enough for them to say,"Bill Monroe? I think he sucks" or whatever and move along.  :Popcorn: 

What's the point of  being so vehement and insistent upon denegrating or belittling the work of one of Americas' musical geniuses?...especially when he's not around to defend himself?  :Mad:  :Disbelief:  :Grin: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Patrick Gunning

A dislike?  A hatred???  I think Bill Monroe sucks?  I'm denigrating and belittling him?

That's a whole lot of assertions made about me with a whole lot less evidence than what I've presented for _my_ argument about the tune.  Believe me, if I thought those things about Bill, I wouldn't be all wishy-washy about it.  I'm pretty clear about my likes and dislikes on this board.

I'm going to make this as plain as I can.  Jerusalem Ridge is one of the best fiddle tunes of all time.  Bill Monroe was a musical visionary, a peerless bandleader, a writer of many brilliant songs and tunes ,and _for his day_ was the best mandolinist around.  His music, both directly and indirectly through countless acts carrying on his tradition, is something I love dearly (though I seldom play pure, straight-ahead bluegrass these days).  

I think Bill Monroe wrote a chunk of Jerusalem Ridge, and inspired/approved the rest (see Ralph's post).  I base this on 1) Monroe saying it, 2) that "Heroes" booklet, and 3) my ear not hearing "Monroe phrasing" in a good portion of the tune.  Kenny Baker, an eminently humble man (a quality I certainly don't measure up to him in), sought no credit (nor does he seek it now) for his contribution, whatever that may be.  That's my opinion and it may be dead wrong.  Whether it's true or not in no way lessens or increases my opinion of Bill.  As anyone who's ever done anything creative knows, it's that spark of inspiration that's 90% of the battle.  

Ultimately, none of what I'm saying really matters because the recordings of them playing the tune will inspire for many years to come, regardless of my random comments.

So, to round this out, let's all chill and go listen to Casey Driessen take this tune to heights (on his record 3D) surely never imagined by Bill and Kenny all those years ago and be confident that someone else will do something even greater with it someday.  Sorry if I've given offense where none was intended.

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## man dough nollij

Thanks y'all for your posts here. I'm learning a lot.

It's interesting-- I had no idea there was controversy over the authorship of the song, and I can't really get too interested in that. It is what it is.

I'm sure I'm not alone in the Cafe population in that I'm relatively late in getting on the Monroe bus. I've heard some of his stuff (mostly performed by other people). I have read so many rave reviews of his style, his playing, and his musical vision that I just had to check it out for myself. Unfortunately, that's limited to YouTube clips at the moment, but at least that's given me a broad sample of his stuff.

I've heard stories of Bill saying things like "No, YOU stand back!", and things like that, so it surprised me that he would write a great fiddle tune for the glory of the fiddler, taking a back seat on the actual playing. I guess there's more to ol' Bill than meets the eye, eh? 

 :Chicken:  :Popcorn:  :Chicken:

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## Pete Counter

> I guess there's more to ol' Bill than meets the eye, eh?


Thats perhaps the wisest, most agreeable thing sed in this whole thread! :Laughing:

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## mandozilla

Patrick when I was commenting about the quote you wrote I didn't mean to single you out or cast aspersions on you.  :Disbelief: 

I was referring to the gang of Monroe detractors that, for whatever reason, always seem to gravitate to Monroe conversations and try to stir the pot. I realize that everyone is not a Monroe fan and I don't have a problem with that. But it seems to me, and maybe I'm too sensitive about the topic, that some of them take glee in dragging Bill, and his accomplishments, down...and more so as time goes by.  :Mad: 

Sorry Patrick if you took my remarks personally.  :Redface: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## earthsave

I didnt care for Casey's version.  I thought it created a vacuum.  :Smile:

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## Fred Keller

At the risk of adding fuel to a fire (though I hope it won't), I believe it's important to understand the dynamic of the band leader/band system that Bill ran.  I'm no expert by any stretch, but I do know for a fact that authorship of songs developed under Bill's tutelage or in conjunction with Bill can be difficult to pin down.  

It has not always been the custom for an individual to copyright things written.  At least during some of Bill's career I understand that it was the custom for the bandleader to claim authorship of material developed by the band (possibly explaining Walls of Time written with Peter Rowan?).  

In addition, Bill was always composing.  He was always bouncing tunes off of his band mates and he did indeed compose music that he thought the banjo or fiddle could do better than the mandolin (not composed by Bill, but it's a fact that on the early White House Blues he insisted that Scruggs play the breaks).  Bill even forgot stuff he had written.  I've heard that Tanyards (I think it was) had to be more or less re-invented due to parts being forgotten.

What I'm suggesting is what others have suggested:  it's conceivable that Bill, Kenny or both wrote the tune.  It's difficult to imply a motive without having been there and especially in light of the fact that there seems to be no hard feelings on anyone's part, at least about Jer. Ridge.  For my part, I can't hear the tune without them both in the middle of it.

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## swampstomper

White House Blues was with Rudy Lyle, I think.  You are probably thinking of Molly & Tenbroeks, indeed with Earl the first time around, then in 1957 with Don Stover. In all 3 cases indeed Mon insisted that they were banjo tunes and the banjo should take all the breaks.  

About band leader vs. member -- it's pretty well established that Flatt wrote Little Cabin Home on the Hill, and Clyde Moody wrote KY Waltz, both attributed to Monroe.  He also bought songs outright. See the Rosenberg discography for details on these.

As for Walls of Time, Rowan has repeatedly told the story (in almost all his concerts) that Mon had the inspiration and opening line... also the whole "mood" of being a Blue Grass boy... without these, the song would not have come into being. Rowan just wanted co-writer credits.

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## Fred Keller

Thanks for fleshing it out, swampstomper!

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## woodwizard

> *
> 
> And, just because I can, I am sharing a live version of WSM playing all four (4!!!) parts of Jerusalem Ridge.  Brought to you courtesy of the other mandolin player on the cut. 
> Listen carefully!
> 
> *


Thanks for that Evan. Thaten' is a smoken'! I bet you've got some very interesting stories.

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## Ivan Kelsall

If you care to read the two Biographies of Bill Monroe that are available,you'll soon find out that there was more to the man than could meet a Football ground full of eyes.A driven,tough & complex character - thank the good Lord for that,or we may never have had Bluegrass,
                                                                                                                    Saska  :Chicken:

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## mandozilla

Or we might have had bluegrass music that was wimpy, timid, and limp!  :Laughing: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## man dough nollij

> Or we might have had bluegrass music that was wimpy, timid, and limp!




It might have even emerged as a variant of disco... I can just see the Bee Gees doing Blisco (or would that be Disgrass?).  :Confused:

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## Mike Bromley

Disgrassful!

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## mandozilla

Somehow I have a hard time picturing Big Mon in a polyester suit and platform shoes on stage.  :Disbelief: 

What if he hired the Beach Boys to tour with him then it might have been Bluebeach Music and his outfit would have been Bill Monroe and his Blue Beach Boys.  :Smile:  _(Lee, I'm trying real hard not to use the laughing smilies when posting near you.)_  :Frown: 

Or maybe joined up with the Temptations and it would have been Mowgrass music!  :Popcorn: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## ralph johansson

> About band leader vs. member -- it's pretty well established that Flatt wrote Little Cabin Home on the Hill, and Clyde Moody wrote KY Waltz, both attributed to Monroe.  He also bought songs outright. See the Rosenberg discography for details on these.


the first is a documented fact; e.g. monroe ackowledged flatt's authorship on a live album in the late 70's.

as for the second fact it would be interesting to know your source for this information. according to smith's bio one tomie thompson claimed authorship to the lyrics, and brought the issue to court. according to the same source monroe admitted that he had commissioned thompson to set lyrics to this tune, and then bought the lyrics.

 what you are claiming, then, is that monroe commissioned lyrics to somebody else's tune. that's very interesting, and something that rosenberg-wolfe missed altogether. again, what is the documentation?

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## mandozilla

Ralph, take a deep breath and relax. We're just kibbitzing here not conducting a serious debate. We've all read the same FACTS you quote like a robot but jeez man, in the scheme of things, it ain't THAT important. Have some fun man.  :Grin: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## ralph johansson

> That's exactly what I want to understand. It appears some folks have a need to tear down others, or others' work, whom they have a dislike, or even hatred for. Isn't it enough for them to say,"Bill Monroe? I think he sucks" or whatever and move along. 
> 
> What's the point of  being so vehement and insistent upon denegrating or belittling the work of one of Americas' musical geniuses?...especially when he's not around to defend himself?





o'connor's record was released in 1993. monroe was still alive. he was even on that project, with byron berline, on gold rush. 

would it anger you if i told you that mr. berline helped shape monroe's idea into a  genuine fiddle tune, and actually contributed the whole out chorus on the recording? if so, email mr. berline.

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## swampstomper

> the first is a documented fact; e.g. monroe ackowledged flatt's authorship on a live album in the late 70's.
> 
> as for the second fact it would be interesting to know your source for this information. according to smith's bio one tomie thompson claimed authorship to the lyrics, and brought the issue to court. according to the same source monroe admitted that he had commissioned thompson to set lyrics to this tune, and then bought the lyrics.
> 
>  what you are claiming, then, is that monroe commissioned lyrics to somebody else's tune. that's very interesting, and something that rosenberg-wolfe missed altogether. again, what is the documentation?


About KY Waltz, that is indeed not documented as such. However, I recently bought the excellent Bear Family Records 16798 "Bud's Bounce", with all the recordings of Bud Isaacs (Mr "Slowly" if you are not a pedal-steel fan), which includes his version of KY Waltz. The liner notes are by Eddie Stubbs, who is the most authoritative source I can imagine. Discussing the song, Stubbs does not come right out and say Moody wrote it, but implies it very, very strongly. You be the judge:

"Bill Monroe recorded Kentucky Waltz for Columbia in 1945, and it became one of his signature tunes. Clyde Moody, the Hillbilly Waltz King, who worked with Monroe from 1940-44, stated that he actually wrote the song and that Monroe put his name on the song (interestingly, Moody went on to author and record many songs like Kentucky Waltz while Monroe didn't)."

That last comment is, if I know Eddie, his way of saying that he agrees with Moody. And if you listen to the song, it's completely unlike anything else Monroe wrote.

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## mandozilla

> would it anger you if i told you that mr. berline helped shape monroe's idea into a genuine fiddle tune, and actually contributed the whole out chorus on the recording? if so, email mr. berline.


UH, No. I believe you on this one cause I've discussed it with him in person. I met him in 1972 at a New Years Eve pickin' party here in L.A. and knew him until he moved to Oklahoma. Breath deep...ahhh.  :Grin: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Mike Bunting

No one gets this "sparky" discussing Beatles tunes as opposed to Lennon-McCartney tunes! It's like a rodeo.

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## mandozilla

> No one gets this "sparky" discussing Beatles tunes as opposed to Lennon-McCartney tunes! It's like a rodeo.


Would that be "Sparky" or "Snarky"?  :Grin: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Mike Bunting

Sparky, sparks a'flyin'. Pager used the phrase "goin' all sparky" in another thread and I like it so much I'm going to use it till I'm  (or you are) sick of it!  :Laughing:

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## Billy1

> By saying that one could say that Bill was indeed saying that Kenny wrote Jerusalem Ridge.  On the other hand he could merely be stating that Jerusalem Ridge is one of the tunes Kenny plays the best! 
> 
> In the final analysis, who cares really? And what does it matter? It's a beautiful tune so lets all have fun playing it and just enjoy it.


Mandozilla is correct, Bill is saying that it is Kenny's best played number. I've heard him use this phrase many times when introducing a band member to do a solo. Ya'll leave Bill alone :Mad:

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## mandozilla

> Sparky, sparks a'flyin'. Pager used the phrase "goin' all sparky" in another thread and I like it so much I'm going to use it till I'm (or you are) sick of it!


Mike, "Sparky" is cool.  :Cool: 




> Ya'll leave Bill alone


I'm with you Billy...I got yer back!  :Grin: 

Oh, and Billy, welcome to the Cafe!  :Wink: 



 :Mandosmiley:

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## TEE

> I'm looking for the next tune I want to learn, and I've perusing the Monroe classics on YouTube to pick the next one.
> 
> This is a good clip. It says in the beginning that Bill wrote this tune, but he only plays rhythm/chops on it. 
> 
> Isn't that sort of strange that he would write a song for fiddle where he only got to play backup? I realize that it can be done the other way, with mandolin doing the melody and fiddle doing the backup, but it struck me as odd.
> 
> Never met the guy myself, but he seems to have a reputation as being a rather strong willed, if not ego-driven sort of dude. Not the kind of guy that would write a song where his role was "second fiddle". 
> 
> Thoughts?


To get back to the original topic- Monroe wrote very few mandolin songs- Rawhide and Bluegrass stomp being the only two I can think of offhand. Roanoke, Cheyenne, Uncle Pen, Southern Comfort all were primarily fiddle songs. He also knew what he wanted the fiddle player to do.

Take a listen to this ( the first twenty seconds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBhD0D7yk1c

Can anyone else name a song written for Mandolin by Monroe?

As far as Ego driven -man dough he was not a bad man but the bad didn't mess with him. He was easily approachable and would shake and greet everyone in the place. He would give children quarters but you did not order him around. My kind of man.

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## Wolfboy

> Monroe wrote very few mandolin songs- Rawhide and Bluegrass stomp being the only two I can think of offhand. [snip] Can anyone else name a song written for Mandolin by Monroe?


Sure: "Tennessee Blues", "Get Up John" and "My Last Days on Earth", to start with...

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## Billy1

> To get back to the original topic- Monroe wrote very few mandolin songs- Rawhide and Bluegrass stomp being the only two I can think of offhand. Roanoke, Cheyenne, Uncle Pen, Southern Comfort all were primarily fiddle songs. He also knew what he wanted the fiddle player to do.
> 
> Take a listen to this ( the first twenty seconds)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBhD0D7yk1c
> 
> Can anyone else name a song written for Mandolin by Monroe?
> 
> As far as Ego driven -man dough he was not a bad man but the bad didn't mess with him. He was easily approachable and would shake and greet everyone in the place. He would give children quarters but you did not order him around. My kind of man.


Are you kidding? Kentucky Mandolin, Come Hither To Go Yonder, My Last Days On Earth- There's a bunch of 'em!

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## evanreilly

*As far as specific 'mandolin' tunes go, I would offer that Bill wrote several.
Include Blue Grass Breakdown, Blue Grass Part 1, Blue Grass Special, Honky Tonk Swing, Get Up JOhn, Kentucky Mandolin, Never Leave the 'A' string, Old Daingerfield,  Pike County Breakdown, Right, Right On, Stone Coal.  
Plus a good few more!*

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## swampstomper

Maybe TEE has his/her tongue in cheek?  What about Master of Bluegrass (1981), specifically to highlight ten mandolin tunes.  Then many, many that never made it to recording, like Tanyards.

And don't forget the very first recording for Decca in 1950, Blue Grass Ramble, a cross-tuned mando piece with only brief fiddle (Vassar) and banjo (Rudy) half-breaks.

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## Billy1

> *As far as specific 'mandolin' tunes go, I would offer that Bill wrote several.
> Include Blue Grass Breakdown, Blue Grass Part 1, Blue Grass Special, Honky Tonk Swing, Get Up JOhn, Kentucky Mandolin, Never Leave the 'A' string, Old Daingerfield,  Pike County Breakdown, Right, Right On, Stone Coal.  
> Plus a good few more!*


As Bill would have said - " It's a way on up there boy " !

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## TEE

No, I wasn't kidding I just aint real smart.

Tennesee Blues, Get up John, My last days on Earth posted by wolfboy are what I consider mandolin written tunes. 

Bluegrass Breakdown, Pike County Breakdown, Bluegrass Special are what I always thought of as written for the banjo or just the whole band. Great mandolin breaks of course but I would call them banjo standards.

Tanyards , I thought was written for a fiddle player. I think Kentucky Mandolin is taught as a fiddle tune. (or at least Butch taught it in his thirty greatest fiddle tunes instructional)

I was not talking about songs or tunes that have great mandolin parts in them I was speaking more about tunes that feature the mandolin as the prominent instrument such as Rawhide or Get Up John.

My point weak as it is is to point out that Monroe wrote music for all instruments and in my mind was much more geared from a fiddle standpoint and overall band sound and was not so ego driven to think that the mandolin was the only instrument.

Am I wrong or did Monroe not write about ten times more fiddle tunes to mandolin tunes?

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## Billy1

> No, I wasn't kidding I just aint real smart.
> 
> Tennesee Blues, Get up John, My last days on Earth posted by wolfboy are what I consider mandolin written tunes. 
> 
> Bluegrass Breakdown, Pike County Breakdown, Bluegrass Special are what I always thought of as written for the banjo or just the whole band. Great mandolin breaks of course but I would call them banjo standards.
> 
> Tanyards , I thought was written for a fiddle player. I think Kentucky Mandolin is taught as a fiddle tune. (or at least Butch taught it in his thirty greatest fiddle tunes instructional)
> 
> I was not talking about songs or tunes that have great mandolin parts in them I was speaking more about tunes that feature the mandolin as the prominent instrument such as Rawhide or Get Up John.
> ...


Numbers like "Never Leave The A String", "Slow And Easy Blues", and " Bluegrass Ramble" are songs that mainly feature the mandolin and there are just so many others. "Bluegrass Breakdown" was originally a mandolin number. Saying " Kentucky Mandolin" is a fiddle tune is like saying "Dueling Banjos" is a mandolin tune. No Part of Nothin!! Most all of Bill's blues numbers were mandolin tunes . Numbers like "Monroe's Blues"and "Wolftrap Blues". "Southern Flavor" originally featured the fiddle but Bill transformed it into a mandolin number and absolutely dominated it.

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## TEE

I guess I hear a few songs as mandolin based. I hear a few as banjo based. I hear the majority as fiddle based. If you don't agree that's fine. 

Sorry, Man Dough for derailing your thread, I was just trying to point out that Mr. Monroe was not an egotistical mando hog but actually wrote a lot for the other instruments. In my opinion he wrote a lot more for the other instruments.  The other members are more knowledgable on that point however and I will defer to them. Give him a listen anyway, you want regret it.

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## evanreilly

*The original Monroe recording of Pike County Breakdown was as a mandolin lead instrumental.  It later evolved into an instrumental with the banjo taking the lead.  Same with Blue Grass Breakdown.
And if you think Kentucky Mandolin is a fiddle tune, you need to find the original recording of it, like, NOW!!!*

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## mandozilla

_



			
				Never met the guy myself, but he seems to have a reputation as being a rather strong willed, if not ego-driven sort of dude. Not the kind of guy that would write a song where his role was "second fiddle".
			
		

_

Back to Lee's original post. Make no mistake, Bill Monroe was the *BOSS* of the Bluegrass Boys. It was *HIS* *STAGE, HIS BAND, HIS SHOW, HIS MUSIC.* That's not to say he 'hogged' the show.  :Smile: 

He knew that people paid good money to come see *'Bill Monroe'** &* *HIS* Blue Grass Boys.  :Grin: 

He was an excellent showman who knew that some variety was important. On every show (well, at least the ones that I had been to) Bill always featured the others instrumentally and vocally but it was clear who was the *TOP DAWG*.  :Laughing:  

 :Redface:  (geez Lee, I did it again!...sorry)

OH. BTW, HAPPY EASTER EVERYBODY!

 :Mandosmiley:

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## swampstomper

Todd Collins ("Monroe Instrumentals", Mel Bay books MB99962) breaks 25 tunes down as:

1. Mandolin tunes (9): Honky Tonk Swing, BG Stomp, BG Breakdown, Raw Hide, Go Hither to Go Yonder, Right Right On, Old Dangerfield, Evening Prayer Blues, Old Ebenezer Scrooge

2. Single Fiddle tunes (8): Big Mon, Cheyenne, Jerusalem Ridge, Ashland Breakdown, Big Sandy River, Monroe's Hornpipe, Road to Columbus, MS Waltz

3. Twin fiddle tunes (7): Stoney Lonesome, Panhandle Country, Dead March, Scotland, Jenny Lynn,  Brown Co. Breakdown, Tall Timber

4. Triple fiddle tunes (1): Lonesome Moonlight Waltz

(I believe Big Mon was written as a twin number but only Bobby Hicks was available on recording day).

(Also, Dead March and Jenny Lynn were from Pendleton Vandiver, I don't think Monroe claimed to have changed them much if any, he was trying to get Uncle Pen's sound into the studio)

Obviously, this is Collins' selection, still we see 9/23 of the Monroe-written tunes are "mandolin tunes" as recorded.

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## Billy1

I miss 'ol Bill. :Crying:

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## Raymond E.

Evenin'...
Well...since y'all are palaverin' over Monroe and Baker bout a tune...I'll tell you a story about Monroe and Baker. Won't be too long . We left the Opry one Friday night...stopped out at hwy 109 & I-40...Monroe wouldn't pass that truckstop. When we left the driver asked if I would drive a while...I drove to Bristol . Monroe had me to go downtown then to an old,dirty truckstop.
The driver got up and was fueling the bus,Monroe and myself setting up front getting ready to go inside...a real ugly, drunk, fat , woman came walking right up in the bus and sat right down beside Monroe...
She blurts out.."I want to see Bill Monroe "..Monroe says.."Uhhh..would you know him if you was to see him?"...She bellows "Hell yeah,I've seen him a hundred times"....Monroe..."Are you sure you would?",,,"Hell yeah",again....
Well, Monroe points down the hall of the bus...tells her , "He's in the left hand bottom bunk back there,go wake him up"..and starts in to that low chuckle he had...grinning all over hisself...well, she's up and gone fast as she could and time I could get myself off the sofa and quit laughing long enough to get back there...She was down on her knees...pulling Baker out of his bunk.....Baker comes out with his fist drawed back...ready to kill......I was laughing so hard...I really can't remember how in the he!! I got her off the bus...Monroe still chuckling...and did for several days after......he loved it

Raymond E.

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## Billy1

That's a good one Raymond! :Laughing:

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## evanreilly

*And, in the 'credit where credit is due' department, I  offer a bit of trivia regarding a Monroe instrumental.  I do believe that Bill took one of Raymond E's mandolins and twisted it all out of tune and came up with the tune "Stone Coal' while in that obscure tuning.*

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## Jordan Ramsey

Priceless, Raymond!  Thanks for sharing!

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## TEE

> *The original Monroe recording of [
> And if you think Kentucky Mandolin is a fiddle tune, you need to find the original recording of it, like, NOW!!!*


Sounds like standard fiddle phrasing to me right down to the droning strings and twin breaks with Baker. Sorry I had to listen to a newer version- was the original different than the Baker, Robbins version with Monroe? I don't remember, I love the song, but would consider it a fiddle based tune.

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## Billy1

> Sounds like standard fiddle phrasing to me right down to the droning strings and twin breaks with Baker. Sorry I had to listen to a newer version- was the original different than the Baker, Robbins version with Monroe? I don't remember, I love the song, but would consider it a fiddle based tune.


Please find the original version and listen to it, and pay close attention to the title of the song- Kentucky Mandolin. I would gladly upload it but I'm afraid since it's copyrighted material I'd get in some trouble with the forum. I can see what your saying about the fiddle phrasing, but Bill wrote this one especially for the mandolin. It is a good sounding number on the fiddle but it's just not the same if it's not played on the mandolin. Fiddle just doesn't put the feeling in it like the mandolin can in my opinion. Sorta like "Foggy Mountain Breakdown" being played by the fiddle instead of one of those long neck, round body things with 5 strings. Just doesn't sound right!

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## Skip Kelley

Raymond, thanks for that funny story!

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## Raymond E.

Mornin'....
Evan , the Stone Coal mandolin you're talking about....that is a 1939 A-50 that was in a house fire...burned the headstock off of it. This made it a perfect candidate for the A-5 conversion...Randy Wood rendered the wonderful job of converting it .
In the studio the day Stone Coal was recorded...Monroe could not get his mandolin to stay in that tuning...was just wearing him out .I told him I would run home and get this A-5..be right back . I did , he tuned it, and recorded Stone Coal...by the way , he got that title from Hobart Skaggs , Rickie's dad .
This happened in dressing room 2 at the Opry...Mr Skaggs mentioned stone coal in a conversation about coal mining,I reckon...Monroe loved it as a tune title .

That 39 A-50 conversion , I sold to Hoot Hester...he loved it , and was a long time friend to Randy...dunno if Hoot still has it...

Loafer

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## Fretbear

"Kentucky Mandolin" is a real important tune of Bill's. It is not that hard to learn or play, and if you heard a fiddle player saw it out it would just seem like a good minor key reel. Bill's tone on it really lets you hear the Loar top to bottom, and the Gm key lets that "ghost" Bb overtone that Bill could always hear in #73987 reverberate. It also stakes his instrumental claim as the originator of the Kentucky bluegrass mandolin style. I'm sure that at the time that he recorded it, as a mandolin instrumental it was totally unique it's tone and drive.

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## ralph johansson

as for monroe mandolin originals no one seems to have mentioned the lonesome moonlight waltz. there's a live recording of monroe playing it with doc watson, in 1964. the 3-fiddle version was recorded in 1970 or 71.

in another thread someone hinted that richard greene may have contributed to the composition. in 1964 monroe had never met greeene. however, it appears that the original bridge is a bit confused; so greene may have helped clean it up a little when playing in monroe's band.

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## mandozilla

Yeah, cause I'm sure Monroe wasn't capable or talented enough to clean up the B part by his lonesome.  :Wink: 

 :Coffee:  :Popcorn:

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## mandolooter

All I know about it is its my favorite Bill Monroe tune!

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## evanreilly

_Lonesome Moonlight Waltz_ is another Monroe tune that evolved, very much as did _Southern Flavor_.
Both proved to be very popular and went from initial ABA forms to AABA form, padding them out and extending them.  The latter tune also went from being a fiddle lead tune to being a mandolin showpiece, thanks to the Grammy.

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## ralph johansson

and apparently old daingerfield moved from the mandolin to the fiddle.

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## ralph johansson

> *The original Monroe recording of Pike County Breakdown was as a mandolin lead instrumental.  It later evolved into an instrumental with the banjo taking the lead.  Same with Blue Grass Breakdown.
> And if you think Kentucky Mandolin is a fiddle tune, you need to find the original recording of it, like, NOW!!!*



then, of course, flatt&scruggs recorded it before monroe did (it's credied to rupert jones, one of monroe's pseudonyms) which may have prompted the decision to record it as a mandolin number. incidentally the ending is really weird, almost angry.

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## Chris Keth

> Yeah, cause I'm sure Monroe wasn't capable or talented enough to clean up the B part by his lonesome.


Well, he _was_ just a hyped up hillbilly.  :Wink:   :Whistling:

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## Kentucky

> I miss 'ol Bill.


+1

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## mandozilla

Man if Bill was still around and lucid, I bet he'd get a kick out of the forums/threads/posts here on the Cafe...too bad.  :Crying: 

 :Coffee:  :Popcorn:

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## Bernie Daniel

> mandozilla: Man if Bill was still around and lucid, I bet he'd get a kick out of the forums/threads/posts here on the Cafe...too bad.


You know you bring up an intersting point -- did Bill ever use a computer?  I'd be stunned to hear that he did!  :Smile:

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## evanreilly

I once showed Bill a piezo pick-up that I was building.  He looked at it & gave a dismissive response.  Bill didn't think there was any place for any electronic devices in his music.  I doubt he ever sat at a computer and did input.

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