# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  Puzzled by Weber Mandolins

## Rich White

I'm puzzled by these things. I have played a few higher end Webers. Most have been unimpressive and a few seemed downright dead. However I have played two Bitterroots that were awesome. Also heard a Yellowstone in a jam once that was amazing, loud and gorgeous sounding.

Are they super-tight/dead when new, and require more time to open op?  Are they inconsistent? Are some models bad, some good? Anyone know about them "revoicing" their mandos recently (I heard that today )?

If I could find one of those beautiful honey amber Yellowstones that sounded as good as the Bitterroot I played today I would buy it in an instant, but unfortunately I can't find one of those models within driving range.  

What say ye, Weber faithful?

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## Bob Andress

Hey Rich

I had a very similar experience just over a year ago.  I was at a festival and picked up a Bitterroot.  I had never held a mando that felt so comfortable to me.  I don't know what it was but I've never felt that in another mando.  Then I played it.  It was dead.  I was confused and disappointed.  I thought I had found my mando.  So I got on the board, just like you did, and asked how this could be.  I was assured by every Weber owner that there had to be something: poor set-up, dead strings, not played in a while.  I then got my hands on another Weber and decided to take my chances and buy a custom Coyote through The Mandolin Store.  When I took it out of the case it had that same amazing feel of the Bitterroot I held.  When I played it, it was anything but dead.  One year later and I'm more in love with it and it sounds even better.  I'm not sure what was up with that Bitterroot, or the dead ones you have played, but I'm glad I took a chance on what felt right.

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## Ivan Kelsall

I can't really comment on the Bitteroot Mandolins as i haven't played one,but i have played another Weber Fern as well as my own & it played & sounded as good as my own. If an instrument is sounding 'dead',then i'd be certain to check the set-up or strings for something not right. Mandolins do take time to 'open up',but they shouldn't sound 'dead' even when brand new. My own Mandolin,far from sounding or feeling dead,vibrates so much that you'd think it was trying to get away, & the tone & volume is as good as i've heard,even from a couple of Mandolins that were priced close to double what my Fern cost me. And *Bob*,i'm really pleased that you at least found a good Weber that suits you,
                                                                                                                               Ivan

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## swain

FWIW, I'm happy with my 2009 Yellowstone.  Heard somewhere the Yellowstones had thicker finish until around 2005.   Can't speak to whether it "opens up" because I got it used and I don't know how much it had been played.  Not much, from the looks. Rather than it being "dead", it has so much sustain that I need to be careful to mute unplucked strings.   I have found that strings and picks make a tremendous difference in tone, volume, and chop.  As they probably do on anything.  Settled for now on D'Addario J75 E and A, and J74 D and G.   Wengen TF140.  YMMV

swain
Vega F
pacrim A
Weber YS  F, amber
Peterson Octave

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## tburcham

I get to regularly sample great mandolins at jams and festivals around our area.  My Honey Amber Yellwstone with Red Spruce top is right there with the very best I've played or heard played.  Mine has been good from the moment I took it out of the case.  Lot's of folks want ot play it when I put it down to play another instrument...it's got great tone and volume.  I have played some Weber's that were just good...but I've also played some Gibson's that were just good...not great.  No two pieces of wood are the same and no two mandolins, no matter who makes them, are going to be the same.  Most of the big makers have earned their place in the market by producing consistent instruments....let's just say it's in their best interest to produce the best instruments they can in a competitive marketplace.

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## Roger Kunkel

I have to say, I've had similar experiences as the op. My first mandolin was a Hyalite which sounded good. When I shopped for a step up, I was surprised that I didn't like the Webers in my price range and went with a Collings MT instead. Then recently, I was in a shop with a large selection of Webers and played them all. The Yellowstone blew my mind and sounded much better, IMO, then the two Ferns there as well. I have renewed respect for Webers, but I'd never buy one without playing it first.

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## Rich White

Roger, you didn't buy the awesome Yellowstone?  What shop was it at?  (I might need it!) 

Rich

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## Mike Snyder

I find the Bighorn series almost irresistable. Built with a bigger body, they have (the ones I've played) a very unique sound. They fill a room without sounding "loud". I still have dreams about a D hole mandola I played last summer.

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## Miss Lonelyhearts

Weber has made some changes over the years, markedly improving their quality control and just quality period. In my experience, the earlier, x-braced Weber's were inconsistent from one mando to the next. I haven't seen a 2008 and later Weber that didn't have tone bar bracing. Also, the batch of instruments made with the old wood that Weber scored (their stash is now running low) has been stellar.

I know a few folks who play and swear by Collings, based in part on unimpressive trials with Webers five or six years ago. My 09 Yellowstone (old wood) always gets raves from the same folks.

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## Kevin Briggs

I can't speak for Weber, but I can relay my experience with Webers. 

I have owned two, and both were/are great. I say they are great for the tone and playability that I get out of them, but also in comparison with mandolins priced in the same and much higher price ranges, in my experience.

I have never played a mandolin that sounded good at a bluegrass festival. My theory on this is it's either too hot, too humid, too dry, or too cold. Any outdoor festival is a crapshoot when trying to really hear what a mandolin sounds like. This may be tempered if the luthier is right there tweaking his or her instruments the entire time, but otherwise the elements are just too powerful. 

It;s true that Weber changed something or other about their mandolins a few years ago. Then again, Weber has never released a statement about it other than to say that they now use tone bars, the traditional bridge, and maple backs and sides on all instruments. Maybe that is most of the answer. Some people griped about the instruments made with mahogany, and then made blanket statements about Webers in general. It didn't make any sense. In the meantime, they were pumping out killer Ferns and Yellowstones the whole time. 

I bought two Webers sight unseen ane was thriled with them both. I had them make me a custom Fern because I knew without a doubt that it would be killer, and it is. I have no reservations about buying a Weber mandolin, and feel the few gripes about a Weber sounding like a dud are completely due to a poor setup, or the fact that a Weber is sitting on a music store wall for four months without being played or having the strings changed. They do not have defective craftsmanship.

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## sachmo63

I too have seen this in Webers. I couple years ago I bought a custom Yellowstone from TMS, cedar top block inlays just great looking but It didn't sound good. Mind you it was brand new and I didn't give it time before it went on the block which is my fault, I do remember it being a great playing instrument and in time It may have sounded fantastic. Maybe the new owner will find us and chime in.

Anyway, I bought a sitka top, double stained fern again from TMS around xmas and have to say as soon as I took it out of the case I knew it was perfect. It does have the old wood top and to my ears and many people who play it sounds great. 

I'd like to buy another as theres a couple new'uns in the classifieds now but I just don't know why I want another mandolin? MAS I guess. Dennis has told me that all the new production mandolins with the old wood have been killer. I cannot disagree.

Now how many people like the distressed yellowstones or HT yellowstones out there....? :Whistling:

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## RobP

Well, I bought a well-broken-in 2004 Yellowstone from Greg Boyd's at Wintergrass this year.  This one has fantastic tone and an explosive chop - I knew I had to have it the minute I played it.  I am still getting used to the 1-1/8 nut, but that's a different story  :Smile: 

Cheers

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## woodwizard

A good setup can really make a difference.

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## Earl Gamage

I have heard the difference in Webers at jams but I always assumed it was the player.

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## Big Joe

Weber mandolins have improved with time, as do most builders.  There are a couple of factors that have to be considered as well.  Some people like one sound, others another.  What I may like, you may not.  This is partly due to personal tastes, styles of music, and ear development.  When one talks about tone or volume, he talks about it from his perspective and experience.  

Weber has altered what they have done over the years, and I think more players are finding them to their liking than in earlier years.  I think they are making a very nice instrument now and the ones we have had in the shop have been very nice.  One of the main items with any mandolin is ensuring it has the best set up possible to deliver the optimal performance from that instrument.  It is amazing the difference one can see (or hear) from a pro setup.  Often a bridge adjustment or replacement can make a world of difference as well as all the other things that go with getting a mandolin to its best.  One can take a mandolin that may seem a bit lacking and see it become quite incredible with the right setup.  Not always, but very often.

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## John Kinn

The distressed Weber Fern that Sierra Hull plays in her new instructional DVD sounds incredible even through my small computer speakers. I guess the player and set-up is top notch, and that Weber offered her the best they had. But nevertheless that is a great sounding mando! :Mandosmiley: 
John

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## nickster60

I recently bought a Weber Custom Bitterroot. It appealed to my ear it is a bit t more bassy then some others I played.  The harder you play that thing the louder  it gets. I dont care for really bright instruments so the Weber works for me. I did play some older Webers with the mahogany back and sides and didnt really like them much. That may be the dead sound you are talking about.

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## Dfyngravity

Set may be the problem as it is the problem with a lot of instruments, both inexpensive and expensive. I use to go to Graves Mt. Bluegrass Festival and use to play a lot of different mandolin and guitars. Some of the most common things I found were strings that were extremely old and needed to be changed. Really high action that made it hard to fret. And actually a lot of the mandolin had really heavy strings on them too. All of these things can drastically change the way an instruments sounds. First off, we all know that old worn out strings will make any instrument seem dead and non-responsive. If the action is higher than you are normal then you may not be fretting the instrument cleanly and it can sound as bit dead and just uncomfortable to play. Finally, if they have heavy strings and never got a setup done, it is quite possibly that the instrument will sound a bit off maybe even a bit dead. Reason, well the nut and bridge slots may not be big enough causing the strings to not be seated properly though leaving the action a fraction higher and thus you have two problems. 

Not many people take their instrument in for a regular setup. It's a good idea to get it looked at, at least twice a year, unless you are really good at doing this yourself. 

I think Webers are becoming extremely popular so you run into them more often than other mandolins so the odds of playing one that isn't setup that great or maybe even isn't that great of a mandolin (it happens) is more likely. I think this is common with Gibson too.

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## Caleb

I haven't played that many Webers, but I did play a Bitterroot a few weeks ago that would rattle the fillings out of your teeth.  Serious, serious mandolin!

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## Capt. E

> I find the Bighorn series almost irresistable. Built with a bigger body, they have (the ones I've played) a very unique sound. They fill a room without sounding "loud". I still have dreams about a D hole mandola I played last summer.


I'll second the Bighorn (one with ff holes). I bought my 2008 after I stood in front while it was played...I jumped each time it was chopped strongly... very loud with a great tone. I did get the nut replaced not long after I bought it as the slots were not cut quite right. Many mandolins can take a bit of adjustment even out of the best shops.

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## JeffD

I have sampled several Yellowstones and found them to be wonderful.

I just had my Aspen II adjusted and looked at, and I am in love with it all over again.

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## George R. Lane

I have a Yellowstone being built I we speak. This will be my third Weber, I had to trade in my custom Gallatin (a great sounding mando with a cedar top). I still have my Vintage A. Bruce has made some changes over the past couple of years, new intonation of the bridges. tone bars on all models, old wood. Some models have been dropped, the Big Sky is gone, but many upgrades done to the Yellowstone (binding, fretboard). I hope to have mine in a few weeks and I know it will be great, I spent a couple of hours with Bruce picking out all the woods and talking with Brett about the coloring. Will it be  as a good as a Loar, probably not, but in my hands it won't matter. All I know is I will have fantastic instrument.

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## mandotrout777

I've owned 2 Yellowstone H&Ts since early 2008.  They both sound/sounded excellent, and I've yet to play a Weber I would say was "dead" sounding.  I did have an interesting experience lately though, that might be applicable to the OP's question.  For whatever reason, I wasn't playing much earlier this year and as a result my current Yellowstone sat in the case and was hardly played for about three months.  When I started playing consistently again a month or two ago, it seemed to be missing some of the "whoof" I remembered it having.  I would write that off to my lack of practice, but I was also in the mood to tinker and so took it in to have some changes made to the bridge.  While in the shop I compared it to some of the other mandolins there that I had compared it to in the past.  These other Webers seemed to have a little more "go" in them than my instrument, where I had thought mine had sounded clearly better in previous comparisons.  Which made me think mine had "gone to sleep" as they say.  So I can see where an instrument that has been hanging in a shop and not getting played much might not be up to its potential.  I think my mandolin is sounding more like itself every day, now that I've stopped messing around with bridges and saddles and strings and whatnot.  Conversely a mandolin that's been hanging in a shop for a while that HAS been played might just have some dead strings on it or the setup might be out of whack.

I've played several Webers over the last couple of years and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one without playing it first, especially any of the Yellowstones or Ferns.  Older models I can't really speak to, as I've not played any, but as the rumor mill goes, and others who have played them over the years seem to think, it appears that Weber has made some changes in the last couple of years that have resulted in not necessarily better sounding instruments, but more consistently good/great sounding ones. 

It's apparent from Weber's website that they've made some pretty serious changes to the specs of the Yellowstone, and it looks to me like they've decided since it's their biggest seller, they're going to go all in with that model and trick them out more like the Ferns.  Maybe mostly from a trim standpoint, but based on the Yellowstones and a couple of Ferns I've played recently I don't think there is much, if any, difference in the quality of the woods they are using in these two models.  I wouldn't be surprised to see them do a bump to the price of the Fern and make a varnish finish standard on that model, kind of like the Gibson/Collings approach to their highest end mandolins.  That would be a big incentive for me to move up to a Fern, anyway.  That's all pure speculation on my part, but I guess if I had a "wish" for a direction for Weber to take, that would be it.

So to the OP, I say if you want a honey amber Yellowstone, order one from some dealer that has an approval period.  I've played 4, maybe 5, of them and they've all sounded excellent to me.  Or maybe better yet, wait for the "new spec" Yellowstones to be more widely available and get one of those.  I'd be willing to bet they'll all be killer.

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## banjer23

I just took possesion of my second Weber,,a distressed yellowstone with that 50 year old sitka spruce that Bruce had found,,after a lil setup,,raising the bridge,,positioning the bridge,new strings,,this thing came to life,,and each day,,gets bolder,,Im very pleased,I think Weber is making as good as mandolin as anybody out there,,you wont get a dud from them,,I'm sure!!

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## re simmers

I own a Weber Gallatin Custom Maple.   Very satisfied, especially for the money.   I also have a '91 Flatiron Weber.   An exceptional mandolin.     They will soon be replaced by a new Buckeye.

I have played quite a few Webers, ......probably 20+ different F models, none were dead      Any that sound 'dead' would probably be a set-up problem.

Bob

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## jim_n_virginia

older Webers while still a good mando were not as responsive as many similarly priced mandos. Weber went to work and made some changes and they have been cranking out some fine mandolins as good as any. I too have never played a dead Weber (or Flatiron) but then my idea of "dead" might be different than yours.

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## Andy Fielding

As the luthiers will tell you, "Every piece of wood is different." That includes how it sounds when the instrument's new, and how it changes over time.

Brandnames are just that: brandnames. I suppose there's a better _chance_ of any particular mando sounding better when there's a more respected name on the headstock—but that's just a rough guide, as many people have found.

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## George R. Lane

Try reading the Gibson MM v Fern thread - Seems even the big G has some varations in their models.

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## Chris "Bucket" Thomas

At different points I have been in the market and always have considered Webers.  Everyone has had top notch fit & finish & just plain beautiful, each time I was ready to be impressed.  However, when I played them I was underwhelmed.

Good thing we all hear things differently  :Smile:

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## Phil Goodson

> ....
> Not many people take their instrument in for a regular setup. It's a good idea to get it looked at, *at least twice a year*, unless you are really good at doing this yourself. 
> ....


We're a little off topic, but you've gotta be kidding!  Maybe I'm not compulsive enough (I've NEVER been told that.), but I can't imagine taking a mando in for a check every 6 months if it's been set up properly before and plays and sounds good.
But that's just me. :Confused:

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## mandotrout777

> We're a little off topic, but you've gotta be kidding!  Maybe I'm not compulsive enough (I've NEVER been told that.), but I can't imagine taking a mando in for a check every 6 months if it's been set up properly before and plays and sounds good.
> But that's just me.


This from the Weber website:   _"Neglected truss rods are the leading cause of poor playability and the need of neck repairs."_  

I've always checked the neck and action on my instruments about twice a year, generally spring and late/fall early winter.  But that may be because the wildly fluctuating humidity levels and temps out here in the mountain west causes wood to move around more.

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## allenhopkins

Just visualizing what I'd be committing to, if I took every one of my 20-or-so mandolin family instruments to the shop every six months.  Let alone guitars, banjos, Autoharps etc.  I might as well rent an apartment next to *Stutzman's* -- and sign over my bank account too!

Still, makes sense to take the instruments you're using frequently, in for periodic checkups.  My everyday guitar, the Martin 00-42 conversion, needed some fret dressing, bridge saddle replacement, and even a bit of truss rod tweakage.  (Since it's a recent re-do of a '40 00-28G, it has a truss rod, though Martins of that vintage didn't.)  I'm taking a cross-country train trip to CA this month, and my trusty "mongrel" Regal long-neck banjo's going to get a spa treatment, with massage, cucumber tension hoop facial, and some finagling with its neck shims -- while I'm on the _California Zephyr_ and won't be using it.

But were I to be shlepping all my instruments to the shop semi-annually, doubt I'd have time for much else...

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## re simmers

I have a 1991 F5 Weber Flatiron, bought new.   Mike Munford refretted and replaced the nut in 2004.   Nothing else done in 19 years, and it's a great mandolin.

Bob

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## Rick Banuelos

> This from the Weber website:   _"Neglected truss rods are the leading cause of poor playability and the need of neck repairs."_  
> 
> I've always checked the neck and action on my instruments about twice a year, generally spring and late/fall early winter.  But that may be because the wildly fluctuating humidity levels and temps out here in the mountain west causes wood to move around more.



Here, here.

Every one of Bruce & Co.'s instruments I've played since I got my job there in 2006 has been a keeper at worst, and mind-altering at best.  There are a handful of mandolins that went out the door at that shop that I still have dreams about when I sleep.

On the humidity issue:  especially in climates like ours, I think a quick checkup of rod station and action is more than necessary, unless you want your mando to become a wrestling opponent.

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## Dave Greenspoon

When I first started to look for a "real" mandolin, I asked about Weber.  The response I got was a huge plug for the brand: "When is a Gibson not a Gibson?  When it's a Weber."  I considered a Hyalite from Mandolin Brothers that sounded great--over the phone--but ended up with a Rigel from FQMS.  Since I was in Pittsburgh, I asked Steve at ACM about Weber, and he broke out the most gorgeous Fern I'd ever seen, calling it "Mando-porn."  It was amazing in looks, balance, and sound, and clearly way more mandolin than I could ever justify, let alone afford. A few years later in Amherst, MA I checked out a bunch of "lesser" Webers at Fretted Instrument Workshop, really, seriously hoping that I'd find what I was looking for in a quality F.  Never found it.  I heard/played another Weber Fern at Greyfox, and was blown away again for all the reasons the first Fern displayed. The same festival I played a different Weber--with a cedar top even--at the Cafe meet and greet and felt it was warmer than the spruce, but nothing really special as a total instrument.  Now in Baltimore, there is a Weber Aspen 1 (?) mandola on consignment that I've been noodling on at Guitars of Pikesville, and I am totally amazed by the resonance of the soundboard and the tone of the instrument, despite old strings.  If I had the ducats, I'd take her home (and sleep on the couch for a couple nights).  At the end of the day, I find myself in the camp that appreciates Bruce & Co. as a solid shop, unafraid to try something new or non-traditional in design or build (i.e. bolt-on necks!),  with a great rep among players for outstanding customer service, and at the same time I'd have to judge their product on an instrument-by-instrument basis.

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## Kevin Briggs

Rick!

I miss you man. I hope things are going as well on your side of the mountain as they are in my neck of the woods.

To everyone in this thread... I had a bout a few months ago where I was on the verge of selling my custom Fern and am glad I didn't. I sent it to Ward Elliott who gave it an impeccable setup. I needed the first six frets replaced, which he replaced with banjo frets. He also tweaked the nut, bridge, saddle, and truss rod. It is amazing what he was able to do with it. 

I also concluded that I needed to switch strings, because the new EXP74s are a downgrade from the old ones. They seem to have lost all of their oomph, at least as played on my mandolin. I used Black Diamond Bronzes for a while and was very happy with them, but I am back to regular J74s now. The don't last as long as the EXPs, but they sound great. 

I want to add that Webers have a complex sound. I think they have not been recognized for that very often, mostly because of the historical affiliation with Gibson and Flatiron. I honestly think Bruce's pedigree has hurt the perception of his mandolins to some degree, because people seem to have an expectation that a Weber is a comparable mandolin to a Gibson, or that you are basically getting a Flatiron when you get a Weber. It's unfortunate, because what a Weber owner will tell you is that the best thing about his or her mandolin is its complexity. I love that my Fern doesn't sound like anyone else's mandolin. I also love that it doesn't sound like a "dry, woody, Gibson." I would have gotten a Gibson if I wanted that sound.

In some ways, Webers have a more complex relationship with the mandolin market than any other brand. I can't figure out why. Maybe it's because Weber was the first legitimate contender to the Gibson production line, or because the expectations were so high when Bruce first opened his shop. Whatever the case, the fact stands that the entire time I have contributed to the Cafe there has been drama regarding Weber mandolins. 

I like to think that I have avoided some of this drama by entering the mandolin world with a Weber in my hand, so to speak. I mean, I worked my way up from an eBay no name, Stella, Alvarez, Morgan Monroe, and Breedlove Spirit before getting my old  Bitteroot, but I had that Bitteroot within' two years of starting to play. I didn't know enough at the time to know that Gibson had been the industry standard for 80 years, etc. and so on. So, I never lusted after a Gibson. As a result, I was able to have an open mind about the type of mandolins I like, and have never stacked my Fern up against a Gibson, Gilchrist, or whatever to determine if I actually like my Fern. I just love it and am thrilled with it every day.

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## Patrick Sylvest

I have an '06 Limited Edition, Maple, Cedar top; It's a fantastic instrument that I've been blessed to own. I've received offers from Gibson owners...so I guess there's something special about this one.

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## John Flynn

I have always found Weber's fit and finish to be superb and I think their designs are very innovative. However, I have played a few Webers I thought sounded great, but unfortunately most of them I've played over the years sounded dead. I have not found them to be anywhere near as consistent as say, Collings. (I don't even own a Collings, BTW) So, I would never buy a Weber I hadn't played first. Also, I have always found them over-priced, in the sense that any Weber model I might want, I'm sure I could get the equivalent custom-built, better, for less money.

BTW, here are some arguments I hear all the time about various builders, and have heard versions of them on this thread. They are arguments I just don't accept:

1) "They've made some positive changes." This is admitting that previously they offered bad stuff and implying that now they've changed their ways. So now I'm supposed to trust them?

2) "Set up is really important." Well, duh, but no more important than with any other brand. If I walk into a music store, why would one brand hanging on the wall be any more or less likely to be well set up than any other? Yet some consistently sound better than others.

3) "They need some break in." Same deal. That's the same for all brands. Why do some builders instruments sound pretty darn good before they are broken in and others don't? So the dead sounding one in the store is going to surpass the already good sounding ones after they are all broken in? Yeah, right.

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## mandotrout777

> Also, I have always found them over-priced, in the sense that any Weber model I might want, I'm sure I could get the equivalent custom-built, better, for less money.


I'm gonna have to ask for the name of an established builder, who has a proven track record and will stand behind the instrument and provide the kind of customer service Weber does, that will make a "better" F style mandolin than my Yellowstone for less than $4K?  Or "better" than a Weber fern for less than $6K?  I recently played a Weber for right around 2K that I think would hold up to about anything out there.

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## mando.player

This is an interesting thread. It appeals to my near obsession with stats. Could it be that the good Webers are in the hands of the players that are raving about them and the not so good ones are languishing in showrooms disappointing prospective buyers?

If Weber has made some improvements to their bulding process I don't know why that might be considered bad in any way.  If they are refining their build process and removing bad or weak points in it, that can only be a good thing.

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## John Flynn

> I'm gonna have to ask for the name of an established builder, who has a proven track record and will stand behind the instrument and provide the kind of customer service Weber does, that will make a "better" F style mandolin than my Yellowstone for less than $4K?  Or "better" than a Weber fern for less than $6K?  I recently played a Weber for right around 2K that I think would hold up to about anything out there.


Bill Bussman, just to name one. For my money, and only for my money, I would trust him to do anything Weber can do, better, for less. But I could name more...

Also, in response to the subsequent post, I am not saying that Weber improving itself is a bad thing. I'm just saying its not an excuse for previous poor quality.

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## George R. Lane

Here we go again. Lets' bash the big time massive factories. Weber is a small shop with only about 8 or 9 people working on instruments. I should be recieving my new Yellowstone on a couple of weeks, if I had ordered from one of the "small" builders it would take anywhere from 1 to 5 years to get it. With using several people to work on different building aspects (binding,neck carving sanding and such) mine will be done in 3 months. I looked at several of those builders but I guess I am impatient. I know I will get a world class instrument and will be able to enjoy this instrument for those several years.

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## kirksdad

Got my Yellowstone H+T back in November 09' with a couple of upgrades; red sruce top, fern inlay and the wider fingerboard.  I love the way it sounds and how loud yet smooth it sounds.  I have played quite a bit of Weber, and never heard one I thought sound "dead."  I have played a few that needed strings changed, but that happens, same as it does for other brands, and even with guitars. 
 I had it set up by Hanson + Crawford last month, and plays even better.  She is still opening up too

I'd have to agree that the Bighorn is pretty special too.  Maybe because of the slightly larger body...but I'd love for Bruce to build me one of those with a 3 point.......

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## Gerard Dick

I brought my Weber Yellowstone home 2 years ago today.  I had gone to Elderly's with intent to bring home a Derrington signed Gibson.   It was not to be.  The Gibson sound did not appeal to me nor to my wife who was along to critique my purchase.  A number of specialty luthier's works were also critiqued and found wanting.  Frustrated I picked up a new Yellowstone to try and I've never looked back. :Mandosmiley:

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## John Flynn

Let me add to my list with three other sayings I hear a lot, but don't impress me:

4) "I own one and I like it." Well, that's great! I'm happy for you, really am. But I will only see you as being partially objective at best. We all have an urge to justify our purchases. (Cognitive dissonance...look it up!)

5) "I own one and I am upset you are 'bashing' the brand." This is just an amplification of #4. This is a forum, where everyone gets to have an opinion, within the posting guidelines. People are not always going to like what you like. That's OK. Learn to live with it. Here you go: I own an Old Wave, a Rigel and a Parsons. You need to look down on someone, have at it, bash away at those brands. You won't see me getting so defensive.

6) "They have a complex tone." That implies, "I, with my superior hearing powers can hear it, but you can't. Since you don't like what I like what I chose to buy, you're a rube!" Wow! I guess I'm not worthy to have an opinion on Webers!

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## George R. Lane

Mr. Flynn,
It is obivious that you don't like Webers, fine that is your opinion. Then why do you find it necessary to downgrade others who do? 
It seems that you conside yourself to be all knowning. Next time I buy an instrument I will have to ask you which one to buy.

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## John Flynn

See, there you go getting all defensive again. Not called for. 1) I don't dislike Webers. I just have some personal observations about them. Those observations are honest, and valid only insofar as they are my observations. You will recall I said I have played some I like, their fit and finish is great and I'm glad they have improved. 2) I have not "downgraded" anyone. Reread my posts. I have not called anyone any names or said that people who buy Webers are anything negative. I have made some observations about things that people tend to say on threads like this, whether the thread is about Webers or any other brand, and my reaction to them. Admittedly, that is a bit of a thread hijack, but it seemed like a place to do it. 3) I am far from all knowing and you should definitely NOT ask my opinion as to what you should buy. You should but whatever you want to buy and then you should feel good about it, no matter what anyone says. To paraphrase Eleanor Roosevelt, "No one can make you feel bad about your mandolin purchase, unless you let them." But I do have an opinon and a right to express it. Sorry if you don't care for that.

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## mandotrout777

> Mr. Flynn,
> It is obivious that you don't like Webers, fine that is your opinion. Then why do you find it necessary to downgrade others who do? 
> It seems that you conside yourself to be all knowning. Next time I buy an instrument I will have to ask you which one to buy.


+ 1

Hey George, when  you get that new Yellowstone, let's meet up and justify our purchases together.

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## mandotrout777

> Bill Bussman, just to name one. For my money, and only for my money, I would trust him to do anything Weber can do, better, for less. But I could name more...
> 
> Also, in response to the subsequent post, I am not saying that Weber improving itself is a bad thing. I'm just saying its not an excuse for previous poor quality.


Well, the Old Wave mandolins by Mr. Bussman look nice.  But they're about $1200.00 more for an F style than what I paid for my Yellowstone.  I'd have to play one to decide if it's "better" or just different.

I don't think Weber, or Weber owners, are using any supposed recent improvements to justify anything they did in the past.  If anything I would guess they've just responded to the market and made adjustments that players seem to find desirable, i.e. tonebar bracing on all stock mandolins, primarily spruce and maple instruments, no more mahogany backs, etc.

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## John Flynn

> Well, the Old Wave mandolins by Mr. Bussman look nice.  But they're about $1200.00 more for an F style than what I paid for my Yellowstone.  I'd have to play one to decide if it's "better" or just different.
> 
> I don't think Weber, or Weber owners, are using any supposed recent improvements to justify anything they did in the past.  If anything I would guess they've just responded to the market and made adjustments that players seem to find desirable, i.e. tonebar bracing on all stock mandolins, primarily spruce and maple instruments, no more mahogany backs, etc.


Well, according to Bill's site, he is up to $4,900, which is $900 more. I didn't realize he had gotten his prices up so high. I get the impression he doesn't like to do F's. But I stand corrected on the overpriced issue. Now I will say they used to be overpriced, and people who sell them on the used market tend to want more for them than I would pay, but the new ones seem priced OK, if you like that sort of thing. Signs of the times...

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## kirksdad

> Well, the Old Wave mandolins by Mr. Bussman look nice.  But they're about $1200.00 more for an F style than what I paid for my Yellowstone.  I'd have to play one to decide if it's "better" or just different.
> 
> I don't think Weber, or Weber owners, are using any supposed recent improvements to justify anything they did in the past.  If anything I would guess they've just responded to the market and made adjustments that players seem to find desirable, i.e. tonebar bracing on all stock mandolins, primarily spruce and maple instruments, no more mahogany backs, etc.



Amen Brother May !!!  I had looked at Bills stuff before deciding, very very nice mandos.....I found the Weber to be a better value for what I wanted, the sound and playability validated why I chose it. 

 I have to admit that there is another builder I would consider ....BRW.....

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## George R. Lane

Jeff,
I would be most anxious to hear your opinion and will let you know when it comes in.

Mr. Flynn,
I stand by what I said.

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## banjoboy

> I have always found Weber's fit and finish to be superb and I think their designs are very innovative. However, I have played a few Webers I thought sounded great, but unfortunately most of them I've played over the years sounded dead. I have not found them to be anywhere near as consistent as say, Collings. (I don't even own a Collings, BTW) So, I would never buy a Weber I hadn't played first. Also, I have always found them over-priced, in the sense that any Weber model I might want, I'm sure I could get the equivalent custom-built, better, for less money.
> 
> BTW, here are some arguments I hear all the time about various builders, and have heard versions of them on this thread. They are arguments I just don't accept:
> 
> 1) "They've made some positive changes." This is admitting that previously they offered bad stuff and implying that now they've changed their ways. So now I'm supposed to trust them?
> 
> 2) "Set up is really important." Well, duh, but no more important than with any other brand. If I walk into a music store, why would one brand hanging on the wall be any more or less likely to be well set up than any other? Yet some consistently sound better than others.
> 
> 3) "They need some break in." Same deal. That's the same for all brands. Why do some builders instruments sound pretty darn good before they are broken in and others don't? So the dead sounding one in the store is going to surpass the already good sounding ones after they are all broken in? Yeah, right.


I don't quite know how to take #2. It's not like Weber was trying to slip one over on it's buyers before changes were made to the mandolins. Like other builders, I can only assume that Weber is constantly trying to improve their instruments. So the mandolins built several years ago may not be quite the same as those being built today. But for one reason or another, those instruments, like those being built today, spoke to the people who bought them. So I don't think there is a "trust" issue here.

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## John Flynn

> I don't quite know how to take #2. It's not like Weber was trying to slip one over on it's buyers before changes were made to the mandolins. Like other builders, I can only assume that Weber is constantly trying to improve their instruments. So the mandolins built several years ago may not be quite the same as those being built today. But for one reason or another, those instruments, like those being built today, spoke to the people who bought them. So I don't think there is a "trust" issue here.


Well, there is for me, but as I said this is only for my money. I decide who I will trust and who I won't, based on whatever criteria I choose. I am curious, though, if you were very dissappointed in most of the mandolins you ever played from say, XYZ builder, I mean you thought their stuff was really below par, and you read somewhere that they had improved, that would be all it would take for you to start trusting that brand?

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## kirksdad

^ Well at least there's one person I won't have to fight over a build spot with my next Weber............ :Laughing:

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## Kevin Briggs

This is a throwback Weber thread for sure. There has been drama surrounding Weber since its inception, and it continues. It's always good to see Johnny Flynn in the midst of it stirring the muck as well. That's been your M.O. for years, brother John!

I can say that I first owned a 2005 custom Bitteroot (maple, gold, thumbwheel Brekke), and it was technically an "earlier" Weber." It kicked major butt, and was in fact louder than my custom Fern. I think the word "improvements" is tossed around a little bit loosely regarding Webers, but they definitely changed some things up there. The most major change was that they stopped building with mahogany and using the original Brekke bridge as stock appointments. The market as a whole did not fully embrace these elements, and I'm pretty sure they were getting lots of custom orders for more traditional bluegrass appointments. So, now they make everything with maple and spruce, and give the thumbwheel Brekke as stock. They just responded to their orders. The response has thus been very positive, and now people say they have  made "improvements." 

This all coincided with some changes in the way they deal with dealers, which in a way also changed their marketing strategy. I don't know exactly what they did, but I remember some dealers telling me that Weber made it harder to become and continue to be a dealer. The dealer commitment was more stringent or something. It was a great move, because Webers were spread too thin across the country. For this reason, they were sitting longer than other instruments, and a lot of times they were collecting dust in electric guitar shops where the people just plain didn't know how to change the strings or do anything along the lines of a setup. We can all recall that Gibson changed its dealer strategy a few years prior to this, much for the same reason, and Collings seems to have learned from them both by selecting a few very skilled dealers (Steve at Acoustic Music Works; Greg Boyd; Dennis; etc.). It's not always apples to apples.

As with 99% of the debates on the Cafe, and probably the world at large, there is simply no accounting for personal tastes. Using my own example, I can say that I probably would have purchased a Gibson way back when based on the name, but it was too expensive. If I could have afforded it, I just would have purchased it for the name, not the Gibson "lore," because I didn't even know back then that Bill Monroe was the father of bluegrass and that he played a Gibson called a Loyd Loar. 

I ended up with my custom Bitteroot in part because it was within my price range. Bruce and Mary also were very good to me while I worked to settle a dispute with a music store, and so his mandolins "mean" something to me. They have a personal relevance and are more than just an instrument that makes pretty noises. This is my personal, subjective reason for being a repeat customer to Weber and singing their praises here on the Cafe. I'm sure I could be happy with any number of instruments for their tone and playability. That doesn't mean I want to own them and have them associated with me. Aside from being thrilled with the tone, volume, and playability of my custom Fern, I feel good for supporting the company as well. 

As for the complex tone thing, it's not a sideways way of saying "if I have to explain you'll never understand." I view that as a regular descriptor in the lexicon of describing mandolins. It's like calling the tone woody, bright, or throaty. To me, complex means a quality that is hard to put into words. In my experience, it has something to do with reverb or sustain, which Webers seem to have naturally. It's not magic, just a sound that can be heard in some mandolins. Now that I put it into words, maybe it mostly has to do with sustain. The tone rings out and seems to become more clear and focused as it continues to sound. There are little overtones in it that seem to underly the primary sound. 

...Carry on, then. It's just another perspective that will no doubt quickly reveal the validity of its opposite, thus proving the ignorance, impermanence, and the non-existence of both sides. It's still fun to write stuff down though.

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## George R. Lane

Kevin,
You are the man.
Thank you for your imput.

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## nickster60

I dont think John likes Webers. He doesnt seem to like Weber owners either. I guess we must be tone deaf if we own Webers. I guess it boils down to what you play. I bought my Weber because I have a passion for jazz and gypsy jazz. My Bitteroot is perfect for that type of music. If I played more bluegrass I would have bought a mandolin that is more of a chop monster. Dont take this the wrong way BG guys chop chords just dont do it for me. 
But when I call up Weber for questions or if I need information I have spoke to Mary and Bruce Weber. They also answer the phone and you dont get a answering machine.

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## John Flynn

nickster:

Quite the contrary: I love Weber owners! They are so thin-skinned and insecure they provide endless entertainment! It's almost too easy.  :Laughing:

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## G. Fisher

> 2) I have not "downgraded" anyone. Reread my posts. I have not called anyone any names or said that people who buy Webers are anything negative.


Looks like you just did.

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## kirksdad

I don't think we are thin skinned at all.....We Weber owners get a real kick out of somebody trying to make a viable argument out of nothing......

Although I really don't care what John Flynn thinks....he definately has the right to speak his mind.

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## sgarrity

I used to feel a need to respond to threads like this.  I just don't anymore..........

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## George R. Lane

Mr. Flyyn
We are not thin skinned, just highly observant.

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## George R. Lane

Shaun,
You are right.
I have said all I can.
Done.

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## CES

Just wait...pretty soon there'll be somebody saying you're all wrong, because their Kentucky sounds just as good for a fraction of the price!!

I've started typing twice and have deleted both times...it's just not worth it at this point...

I will say that I consider available Webers whenever MAS strikes, because I'm not good enough to justify a big money mando and they make some "real" mandos in the sub 2000 range.  I haven't bought one yet, but based on how much I love my Bozeman made Flatty pancake, I wouldn't hesitate if the right Weber came along at the right time.

Play what ya got, and love the music whether you're making it on a 100 dollar or a 10,000 dollar mandolin.

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## nickster60

John 
I now understand it is just the squid in you.

Nick
Lt US Army Rangers

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## Nick Triesch

Weber owners ,  do not fear!  Think about thousands of Weber's that have been bought in the past 11 years.  Someone loves them.  They are terrific mandolins in fit and finish and just get better every year.  Now about sound...One of the best guitar repairman in San Diego told me that buying an F style mandolin is a ****shoot.  They all sound different no matter what brand they are.  Some sound huge and great while the very same model can sound thin and weak.  They are just wood!  Remember Martin D28's in the 60's?   Great ones were a "nice box"  and bad ones were called a "turkey".  This goes for all brands of mandolins from Gibson's to Webers to any brand.  I think people are wrong to say "I want a Weber or Gibson for the Weber or Gibson sound.  Folks should say I want to look for a Weber or Gibson that has the best sound.  Nick

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## MiG-19

> John 
> I now understand it is just the squid in you.
> 
> Nick
> Lt US Army Rangers


Semper fi!
Jay 
USMC

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## John Flynn

Spoken like a true dog-face and a seagoing bellhop!

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## Rick Banuelos

> 1) "They've made some positive changes." This is admitting that previously they offered bad stuff and implying that now they've changed their ways. So now I'm supposed to trust them?


I don't know if I've ever met a good builder who didn't tell me that he or she was always trying to improve, and I've met a lot of great builders.

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## Dave Greenspoon

> Spoken like a true dog-face and a seagoing bellhop!


You tell 'em shipmate!  Poor rangers can't go anyplace without their blankets, and well, what can you say about Uncle Sam's Misguided Children except that they can't even get to work without help from the Navy.  :Wink: 

Interservice rivalries and loyalties aside, I salute all who served, even if in the lesser branches.   :Mandosmiley: 

EM3, USN 1981-1985 (USS Harry E. Yarnell CG-17, USS Saratoga CV-60)
LT, CHC, USNR-R 1989-1996

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## MiG-19

> Spoken like a true dog-face and a seagoing bellhop!


Thanks to guys like you John who gave us seagoing bellhops a home!  My cover is off to all of you on the cafe who have donned the uniform, any branch of service.  I know there are a lot of you out there like John and Nick, and all of your sacrifices are deeply appreciated by this jarhead.  Is this a great group, or what?

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## John Flynn

Ooohrah!  :Cool:

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## Ivan Kelsall

Hey John - You'll need all the USMC when the *Weber Police* get to hear about this !. They'll be on their way round to snip your strings & nick your pick. I wouldn't be in your shoes for a LLoyd Loar. :Laughing: 
   Seriously,if everybody liked exactly the same thing,this website wouldn't have lasted a day - we'd all say "yep !" & that would have been the end of it. Long live controversy - even if the 'other guys' are all wrong
                 Ivan :Wink:  :Grin:  :Chicken:

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## red7flag

The strangest part of this discussion (I will be nice) is that it treats Weber Mandolins as a single entity.  Even before the new changes, it was probably the most diverse product line in the modern era and attempted to be.  From the very beginning, Bruce and the gang, for better or worse, were never afraid to try different things and to offer a wide variety of products.  While I am not a fan of the original Brekke bridge, it was a real attempt to do things differently than just what Gibson did.  They always seemed to differenciate themselves from Gibson, and with Bruce's past with them, that was a good idea.  Some attempts worked better than others, but they have never rested on their laurels.  They seem to listen to their buyers and make changes as needed and some that were just opportunities.  Buying and implimenting the old wood comes to mind.  Also, they have never just been a bluegrass instrument maker and have reached out to other genres.  Some of those other genres are more open to change.  I have had a number of Webers and will probably be selling my last one pretty soon.  But, I have seen a great improvement in the sound quality of the instruments over the years.  Would I buy one again.  If the sound rocked my socks, the same measure I have always used and which led me to buying them before.

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## ilovemyF9

I find your Weber issue really applies to ALL instruments.  Whenever I buy an electric Guitar I play it first unplugged, for at least 10 minutes.  Many times I have put the electric back on the rack without putting it through an amp. The "pour je ne sais quel" just isnt there... I have various fretted instruments and have played a few of the same model before making the purchase, as many here have also done.  Please, bear in mind, this is not just a Weber issue. It is with ALL instruments.  Happy Picking.....

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## red7flag

An added thought.  Any surviving company goes through changes, some positive, some not.  Gibson moved away from many good and bad ideas over the years.  Recently, they have really done a great job revitalizing their efforts.  Do we disregard the fabulous (nfi and don't own one) MMs and DMMs because some of the past F5s were not of that caliber?  Car manufacturers are infamous for going through blue periods.  Ford took a long time to get over the Edsel (as a kid, I thought it was the bomb.  It was and blew up).   Whether companies or individual we have to try new things to stay fresh.  Some don't work and go to the circular file.  Some do work and we grow as a result.  I have trouble with change, but realize it is the process for growth.

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## nickster60

John 
I may resemble those comments.

Nick

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## fscotte

Look, how is this argument any different than the type of pick each of us prefer?  Well it's exactly the same, except the element of $$$.  That's it end of story.  Period. You don't have endless threads of debate over which pick is better because picks are cheap.. well except for one pick that comes to mind recently, but at least that thread is all good...

Money is the key ingredient here.  Which means that emotions come into play.  "Don't tell me my mandolin brand sucks or I'll..."  If we can just focus on the fact that money is the underlining demon here then we can put threads like this to an end.  Everyone wants to be emotionally secure that their thousands were put to a good cause.   People CAN be persuaded that the mandolin they once thought sounded good, now doesn't, simply because a majority of people say so.  And that's a fear people experience.  That their purchase was no good.

I learned to get over that a LOOONG time ago.  And I do have to wonder about the folks who attack and those who defend.  They are BOTH experiencing fear.  They need to get over it.  I've got a 1989 Martin D42 Custom master grade brazilian RW, grade 8, 400 year old log, engelmann spruce topped guitar that IS the holy grail of guitars.  You pick it up, play it, and say it sucks, and I'll be happy as a lark.  I do not care what anyone thinks.  It sounds like the holy grail to me.  End of story.

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## jimbob

I figured I would make my Weber comments...I had a '98 Yellowstone w/ tone bars. I bought the mandolin used and while it had been played quite a bit, it was in almost perfect cosmetic condition....no dings , scratches, etc. The fit and finish was by far the best I have had on any of my mandolins. It also played very easily. The tone was very pleasing and I really enjoyed the instrument. The only complaint I had was that it was much too quiet. It was almost impossible to hear over even a couple of guitars in a jam setting. I suppose it would have been a good candidate for some ampliphication, but I did't want to mess with that, so I traded it for a Gibson A-5L. I often wish I still had the Weber. It was a really nice mandolin....it just didn't have a big voice. I've seen several other Webers and they have all looked nice, but I never really picked any others. :Coffee:

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## dang

I didn't get time to read every word of this thread, but I have 2 cents to throw in...

I had my bighorn at Winfield and was picking away holding my own in a jam session (so I like to believe) and approached another mandolin player and we traded instruments and kept picking.  My mando sounded horrible in his hands!  I asked my guitar playing buddy "do I sound like that?" to which he shook his head and stated a firm NO.  I was able to pull some tone out of his instrument, but it was not easy at all for me.  The thing was, this other mandolin player was sounding awesome on his own mandolin!  

We discussed things, and I had heavy strings, and oversized radiused fretboard, and about two days of festival funk on my strings.  He had a flat one inch fretboard and light strings which were changed that day.  We both knew what we liked to play on, and it fit our styles well.  

You could probably hand me Thile's mandolin and I would dislike the way it felt and played in my hands, which is of course no reflection on the magic he can to with it!

We like what we like.  We seek affirmation from others that validate our choices.

To the original poster: I find that Webers respond well in my hands, and rarely sound dead to me, because I have a relatively heavy picking hand.  The top gets moving and it responds even more over time.  I love my custom bighorn and really have little desire for anything else, though MAS does hit occasionally.  Since it is custom, it is what I want and setup for me.  Knowing this lets me adjust my conceptions about other mandolins when I encounter them.   YMMV

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## nickster

I've owned an older Weber Big Sky, and two Ferns.  They were all very good mando's but slightly sounded and played different. I had to learn how to pull tone on each instrument differently. My 2006 Custom (cedar top) Fern has the best sound for me for dollars spent. 

Nick

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