# Music by Genre > Jazz/Blues Variants, Bossa, Choro, Klezmer >  Non Mandolin Jazz

## Carl23

I have this great book for Vibes that I am using for approaching jazz

It has a list of recording recommendations for each chapter. So I am listening to a lot of jazz vibes. (not a bad thing in my book) :-)

It got me thinking... Since there is so little jazz mandolin, I was wondering what non-mandolin instruments you are listen to for learning jazz tunes?

I am drawn to Vibes and some piano... Sax being a reasonably close 3rd.

your thoughts?

C

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DavidKOS

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## Bill McCall

Vibes are pretty good.  Red Norvo had a pretty fair guitar with him, Tal Farlow.  Lots of jazz guitar players relate to mandolin players.

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## Tom Wright

Trumpet, sax, guitar. Piano tends to be pretty thick in the chords but the riffs are worth trying to emulate. I picked some good piano styles from boogie-woogie and early rock and roll.

John Scofield on guitar uses spare chords, sometimes only two pitches in counterpoint lines, easy to hear. Mike Stern is another modern guitar player that I like. Favorite sax is Michael Brecker. Of course listen to Miles and Louis Armstrong.

But all jazz is a challenge without a C course. The lower range opens up guitar and sax range, and richer chords. Restring a spare mandolin CGDA and “speak low” (a good tune to learn btw).

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## catmandu2

Yes, I like at least a mandola - which is what I used for any jazz mndln.  But it was minimal compared with gtr and plectrum banjo.  For me double-course strings aren't as good for jazz - unless it's for like Latin or Brazilian or such..  playing guitar and especially plct bnjo you get crisp, discrete note separation.  

As far as 'other instruments' - I often thought of piano with those - for the voicings I suppose.

I went through a big Metheny phase early on...lots of Bill Evans-type stuff in those.  And then with Gismonti, Towner, Abercrombie, John McLaughlin...lots of gtr stuff.  But I listen to jazz 90% of the time, so ear is informed by everything.

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Carl23, 

John Lloyd

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## Bob Visentin

Monk is always fun.  Not to chordie. Really good heads and quirky solos.  Whole tone scales!  I quote Blue Monk often at jams when someone plays a 12 bar blues and it always gets a response.  People who don't know Monk or even jazz recognize it but can't place it.

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## catmandu2

> Monk is always fun.  Not to chordie. Really good heads and quirky solos.  Whole tone scales!  I quote Blue Monk often at jams when someone plays a 12 bar blues and it always gets a response.  People who don't know Monk or even jazz recognize it but can't place it.


I liked Monk on plc banjo!  Those angular heads/melodies are perfect on PB - gives it an extra oomph and weirdness.

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## mandocrucian

*It's not the instrument, it's the player(s). Always.*  Also, it's the particular performances and/or tunes.  It should be about the solos that really grab you regardless of the instrument, and regardless whether the player is amongst your faves. Sometimes that guy will really, really nail it on particular song or record when most of his other stuff leaves you cold. You retain the cream of the cream.

I prefer players with a very VOCAL sound and articulation. Chet Baker on Trumpet, Johnny Hodges on alto sax. Cootie Williams  (trumpet). I love to listen to Art Pepper (alto sax) play the blues.  Paul Desmond (alto) Stan Getz, Coltrane & Rollins (tenor). Johnny Almond (flutes/saxes). I like James Moody and Yuself Lateef on flute. Herbie Mann is too preoccupied playing in the high register for my tastes. Rhasaan Roland Kirk can be very funky ("Making Love After Hours") but can be a bit too raw (on flute).

I'm not too crazy about "jazz guitar" with that every-note-with-pickstroke "bubbly" articulation. Of course, Django was great, but that was a bit different. Wes Montgomery I liked.  I prefer rock influenced solid-body players, because they bend strings, use much more slurring and frankly, tend to play lines and articulate more along the lines of a sax player.  25 years ago, my brother and I were playing tunes with Richard Thompson, including some Django stuff. RT played _"Melodie au Crepescule"_ (on his strat) and I swear, it sounded as smooth and fluid as Johnny Hodges, but coming through a guitar amp. Terrific!   Lee Ritenour always impressed me among the fusion bunch.  I enjoy hearing Derek Trucks on jazz tunes, and Kofi Burbridge sounds great on flute.

Frankly, for jazz, I'd opt for mandola or my electric 5-string (GDAEa, an octave below mandolin) over mandolin. But then,  I'd rather hear it on flute more than on mandos.

As other players on the Cafe have said....the answers are all on the records. 

Also my attitudes toward _whatever grabs my ear, the original instrument is irrlelvant_ cuts across all genres - blues, C&W, celtic, Nordic, asian, R&B, etc. etc.  The stuff I hear that I really like goes into the mental crockpot and may come back out on whatever instrument is in hand.

Niles H

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Mark Gunter

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## Carl23

> Trumpet, sax, guitar. Piano tends to be pretty thick in the chords but the riffs are worth trying to emulate. I picked some good piano styles from boogie-woogie and early rock and roll.
> 
> John Scofield on guitar uses spare chords, sometimes only two pitches in counterpoint lines, easy to hear. Mike Stern is another modern guitar player that I like. Favorite sax is Michael Brecker. Of course listen to Miles and Louis Armstrong.
> 
> But all jazz is a challenge without a C course. The lower range opens up guitar and sax range, and richer chords. Restring a spare mandolin CGDA and “speak low” (a good tune to learn btw).


LOVE SCHOFIELD! He's had some great drummers as well.

Will check out "speak low" only one mando, so no restringing... :-)

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## Carl23

> Monk is always fun.  Not to chordie. Really good heads and quirky solos.  Whole tone scales!  I quote Blue Monk often at jams when someone plays a 12 bar blues and it always gets a response.  People who don't know Monk or even jazz recognize it but can't place it.


Blue Monk is a great tune. Love his playing as well, especially when he goes a bit "off the rails".

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## catmandu2

> I'd rather hear it on flute...


...especially when paired with bass clarinet!  https://youtu.be/hef9I4EVb4s

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## Carl23

> Also my attitudes toward _whatever grabs my ear, the original instrument is irrlelvant_ cuts across all genres - blues, C&W, celtic, Nordic, asian, R&B, etc. etc.  The stuff I hear that I really like goes into the mental crockpot and may come back out on whatever instrument is in hand.
> 
> Niles H


So in the same boat! I'm trying to learn the "the tradition" right now. Once I'm more familiar with what is expected I'd like to bring in eastern European, Klezmer, West African Cora, Mid eastern oud, and 20th century atonal... Like you say, anything that catches my ear.

My problem right now is that I'm not really playing "jazz" in the sense of coming from a tradition. I'm not saying that you have to do it that way, just the way I want to do it.

One of the coolest 'odd' instruments I've heard in Jazz has been a bassoon! happens to be on a manouche jazz tune. Rippin solo!

:-)

C

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## catmandu2

> One of the coolest 'odd' instruments I've heard in Jazz has been a bassoon! happens to be on a manouche jazz tune. Rippin solo!


James Jacson held that chair for sun ra.  I love a dark sound too - (why I got into bass cl, oud, etc..)

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## DavidKOS

I'm in the somewhat non-piano minority. Yeah, I do love good pianists and piano solos, but when I hear a piano trio in jazz, I still wonder when the lead instrument is going to enter! Sorry!

I prefer trumpet, sax, clarinet, trombone and other instruments that are primarily single line winds as the ideals of jazz - these are the MAIN jazz instruments in terms of phrasing.

The piano is wonderful...I learned a lot of jazz theory form pianist Ellis Marsalis!

Piano and guitar are both melodic and rhythmic/chordal - as is mandolin. But remember the most important innovators in jazz have largely been sax and trumpet players. 

Even many of the piano jazz innovations were just adapting horn stuff to piano. Earl Hines was considered one of the best jazz pianists...and his style was called "trumpet style" piano.  Bud Powell largely played single note lines a la Parker and Gillespie. 

I love jazz piano, but I want to present a few alternative POV's for aspiring mandolinists.

I think more like a single-note instrument on mandolin than a chordal instrument, like a violin - yes we can play chords but we really excel at melodic phrasing.

And I really respect the chordal jazz mandolin stylists.

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## DavidKOS

> Once I'm more familiar with what is expected I'd like to bring in eastern European, Klezmer, West African Cora, Mid eastern oud, and 20th century atonal... Like you say, anything that catches my ear.
> 
> *My problem right now is that I'm not really playing "jazz" in the sense of coming from a tradition.* 
> 
> C


I love Klez, oud music, 20th cent classical, etc. - but if you try to play jazz without understanding the over 100 years of tradition, it ain't real jazz. It's another fake-o "fusion". Jazz can absorb all sorts of music, but it has to in terms of jazz. 

Jazz is not just making up_ anything_...it does have a tradition, over 100 years in New Orleans. 

There's a reason.

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## catmandu2

> ...when I hear a piano trio in jazz, I still wonder when the lead instrument is going to enter! Sorry!


I hear that, but it dpends who you listen to.  Bud, Monk, Fatha, Art, Jaki Byard, Andrew Hill...just didn't need a horn  (but of course, it's the icing on the cake).

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DavidKOS

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## catmandu2

> I love Klez, oud music, 20th cent classical, etc. - but if you try to play jazz without understanding the over 100 years of tradition...


Definitely.  If youre going to be a jazz player, stick with the instrument you play best - no matter what it is.  Incorporate those styles on that instrument.

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DavidKOS

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## Pete Martin

I find piano phrasing very similar to mandolin, multiple strings picked.  Guitar also phrases similar due to being a fretted string and a pick.  Horns are great for lines, but our square attacked notes are VERY hard to phrase like a horn.  

Any players who you like, steal everything!!!!  :Mandosmiley:

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DavidKOS, 

Mark Gunter

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## John Morton

Vibes have a limited sustain that reminds me of the mandolin, so I think they are worthy of study.  Try this one from a Rosenberg Trio album that features vibes:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M_02mSk88I

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## gtani7

Aebersold's free book has a list of suggested players all instruments, page 7 http://jazzbooks.com/jazz/FQBK

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GrooverMcTube

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## UsuallyPickin

Violin ….. Joe Venuti, Stuff Smith, Stephane Grappelli, Sven Asmussen …..

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> Violin ….. Joe Venuti, Stuff Smith, Stephane Grappelli, Sven Asmussen …..


And the new batch of Manouche jazz violinists...all offer great ideas easily adapted to the mandolin.




> I find piano phrasing very similar to mandolin, multiple strings picked.  Guitar also phrases similar due to being a fretted string and a pick.  Horns are great for lines, but *our square attacked notes are VERY hard to phrase like a horn*.  
> 
> Any players who you like, steal everything!!!!


Yes, it is hard to not sound square on mandolin - but it's a lot of fun trying to phrase like a horn, with slurs and grace notes and other "tricks".

I appreciate all the various comments about vibes and piano, too.

One other personal comment - I find playing mandolin in swing style jazz to be "easier" than to make the mandolin a modern jazz instrument a la Trane.

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## DavidKOS

> I hear that, but it dpends who you listen to.  Bud, Monk, Fatha, Art, Jaki Byard, Andrew Hill...just didn't need a horn  (but of course, it's the *icing on the cake*).


I really like the icing...Bird and Bud....Monk and Trane or Coleman...Fatha with Louis....et al.

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## DavidKOS

> Aebersold's free book has a list of suggested players all instruments, page 7 http://jazzbooks.com/jazz/FQBK


Which also includes the scale syllabus.

http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/downloa...e-syllabus.pdf

Which brings up chord-tone or chord arpeggio style playing vs. the "modern" chord-scale theory issue.

Aebersold's books and play-alongs are a fine way to learn much about jazz, but they fail to include how to play the older (and in my opinion, better ) way using chord arpeggios and chord tones as the basis for improv, not matching a chord and a scale.

Of course after you know the traditional way, THEN using the chord-scale method can add greatly to your playing, but used alone it often leaves much to be desired.

However jazz is now taught as if earlier styles and methods don't exist, and the chord-scale method is the one used by many if not most young players.

BTW, all my teachers used the chord-arpeggio method as the basic way to play all styles of jazz.

As for the FQBK handbook, it proves my point, in that there is little mention of *chord arpeggios* before you get all those scales, and the listening admits "Most of the recordings listed are from the 40’s, 50’s & 60’s Bebop era. This is due to the strong influence this particular
period of music has had on our current "jazz” scene today. "

Otherwise it's a fine collection of info on post-bebop style jazz.

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GrooverMcTube, 

Rick Jones

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## Don Stiernberg

Jethro Burns was asked a similar question way back in the the Mandolin World days. I think his answer was "I listen to everything. I like most of it."

 I kinda side with Niles...jazz is not the instrument but the players. I'd go one further, it's not the instrument, it's the notes.

  OK, enough controversy and opinion. Here's players and notes that I dig currently, and for all time:

  Piano
        Wynton Kelly and Erroll Garner
   Clarinet
         Buddy DeFranco
    Trumpet, Cornet
          Clifford Brown, Chet Baker, Bobby Hackett, Wild Bill Davison
    Alto
        Bird, SONNY STITT, Cannonball, JOHNNY HODGES
    Tenor
          Lester Young, Sonny Stitt, Harry Allen, Dexter Gordon, Michael Brecker, Stan Getz
     Bari
           Ernie Caceres, Gerry Mulligan
     Bone
          Jack Teagarden
    Bass
         Ray Brown, Paul Chambers
     Drums
         Jimmy Cobb, Philly Joe Jones, Jo Jones, Buddy Rich, Peter Erskine
   Plectrists
         Jim Hall, Wes, Joe, George, Pat, Howard,John Pisano
     Vibeyphone
           Red Norvo

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DavidKOS, 

Pete Martin, 

Rick Jones

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## Carl23

> but if you try to play jazz without understanding the over 100 years of tradition, it ain't real jazz. It's another fake-o "fusion". Jazz can absorb all sorts of music, but it has to in terms of jazz.
> .


Exactly what I'm doing! I was doing the other "quasi jazz fusion" thing for a bit, just to get my legs under me. A couple of months ago I decided it was time to dive into the history. I've always had trouble with the scales over chords thing, so I'm starting at the very beginning (straight 12 bar blues) and moving up from there.

C

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## Carl23

> James Jacson held that chair for sun ra.


OMG... another google search! Will definitely check that out!

C

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## Carl23

> Definitely.  If youre going to be a jazz player, stick with the instrument you play best - no matter what it is.  Incorporate those styles on that instrument.


I've played Jazz on vibe, so that is my current bias, and why I'm using the book that I am using. Some of the vibes styles (Bobby Hutchinson for example) are very relate-able. 2 Mallet Vibes translates great, with the exception of some rather difficult counterpoint type licks.

C

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## Carl23

> Aebersold's books and play-alongs are a fine way to learn much about jazz, but they fail to include how to play the older (and in my opinion, better ) way using chord arpeggios and chord tones as the basis for improv, not matching a chord and a scale.
> 
> Of course after you know the traditional way, THEN using the chord-scale method can add greatly to your playing, but used alone it often leaves much to be desired.


Exactly what I need to work on. I've played this on vibes for like forever. I really do not think about the voicing and patterns any more.

On the mandolin however....  :Confused: 

Really sucks that what happens in my head does not come out my fingers.  :Grin: 

C

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DavidKOS

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## catmandu2

Hey cool Carl.  Fwiw, if you've mastered vibes, that should be an adequate platform, to say the least, for approaching mndln.  My flamenco mentor, Rene Heredia, always told his master classes that gtr is just a little piano (obviously there are technical disparities, but _conceptually..)_

You've got so many tools to apply to a smaller instrument - should be no dearth of material/ideas for you to array on mndln..   And just listen to everything.   

Check out Gerry Hemingway (cans/vibes)

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Carl23, 

DavidKOS

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## Kevin Stueve

> Jethro Burns was asked a similar question way back in the the Mandolin World days. I think his answer was "I listen to everything. I like most of it."
> 
>  I kinda side with Niles...jazz is not the instrument but the players. I'd go one further, it's not the instrument, it's the notes.
> 
>   OK, enough controversy and opinion. Here's players and notes that I dig currently, and for all time:
> 
>   Piano
>         Wynton Kelly and Erroll Garner
>    Clarinet
> ...


No trombones  :Frown:  .   JJ Johnson?  Bill Waltrous?   (totally missed your Jack Teagarden apologize)

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## mandopops

Jazz talk, fun.
So much to agree with here. Mainly, listen to the whole history on many instruments, Armstrong to Coltrane to.... If you don’t like to listen to it, why play it.
I agree with David that so much of the Jazz lesson material centers on Bop, post Bop, modal, etc styles. Early New Orleans, Swing era playing is treated as a quaint historical foot note. Unfortunate. I mainly listen to post forties Jazz, but not to the exclusion of early styles. 
I understand David’s point about the Piano Trio (Pno, Bass, Drm) & missing the horn. I don’t mind the Trio minus horn in small doses. Overall, in Jazz, I prefer the Music with horns & Piano over all string Jazz. “Heresy, you say. You don’t like, Django & Gypsy Jazz!?” Of course I do. Maybe in smaller doses than others. Partially, as much as those chugging rhythm Guitars are fun, I prefer the Piano Trio. It’s far more supportive, flexible, & interesting. My favorite Django/Grap recording is Djangolgy ( LP & expanded CD) with an Piano Rhythm section. In Mandolin Jazz, our friend Donnie’s Mandobopping with Piano, maybe my fave of his.
As far a later styles, perhaps I am a bit parochial, but I like what I’ll call the East coast, Blue Note, hard Bop,(Blakey, Silver etc) over the West coast, cool, (Brubeck, Desmond, Baker etc)(I will make an exception for Mulligan, like him a bit). As much as I like 50’s & 60’s Miles, I’m not a big fan of the Birth of the Cool thing. I’ll take it further. The Miles/Gil Evans stuff doesn’t do much for me. Sketches of Spain is ok. Ellington & Mingus larger ensembles appeal to me more. 
 I like a harder, bluseier, funkier approach to the Music. That’s why I think of Jazz & Blues together. No wall, between them. Any day I would listen to Albert King over Chet Baker. No contest.
I’m more of a fan of the Guitar big arch top guys (Charlie,Kenny, Wes) than Niles. Love those Guys. I did go thru a fusion period, (McLaughlin, Coryell) not long lasting. I do like Scofield a lot. I’ve heard him a couple of times in Chicago & New York in a couple of contexts. He plays Jazz phrasing, with a Rock attack & not obsessed with speed. I like Sax man Joe Lovano quite a bit. Again heard him in Chicago & New York in different settings. Plays with wit & imagination.
Couple names I think were over looked, maybe I missed them. Vibes, no Milt Jackson?!? From Blues to Ballads, he’s the Man.
Multi-instrumentalist, Eric Dolphy, is great, with Mingus & his solo recordings. He can be lyrical & ‘outside”. Trumpet, Freddie Hubbard is high on my list. Heard him in the early 70’s & he knocked me out. He can spit out those long bebop lines with the best of them, but he was witty & playful while doing it.
To be continued...

Joe B

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Bruce Clausen, 

DavidKOS, 

Rick Jones

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## DavidKOS

> I like a harder, bluseier, funkier approach to the Music. That’s why I think of Jazz & Blues together. No wall, between them. Any day I would listen to Albert King over Chet Baker. No contest.
> 
> Joe B


Please continue!

But I so agree with the no wall between jazz and blues concept.

BTW, I've heard Joe play jazz. He does his teachers honor.

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mandopops

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## catmandu2

Thing about the 'solid body' vs 'jazz box' electric gtr, it's really modernist vs 'straight ahead' guys (roughly,  'modernism' being anything after bop, for purposes here).  Slab/technology saw the advent of the axe really emulating horns (Metheny played a hollow-body, but when he brought out the synth he emulated trumpet), until inevitably you have Nels Cline and Gregg Bendian doing a read on "Interstellar Space," and beyond..

After about 1960, everything changed, and the electric guitar has limitless capabilities.

Ultimately, my research went as far back as jelly roll and all that early (NOLA!) stuff, which is a gas to play on banjo.  Talk about yer blues/jazz nexus - that delta trad is cool.   :Mandosmiley:

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DavidKOS

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## Pete Martin

Vibeyphone  :Laughing: 

Don's list and mine are almost identical, just add Milt Jackson.  :Mandosmiley:

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Carl23

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## catmandu2

Yum.  Jazz.
There was for years a weekly program on local radio - "The Early Years of Jazz" who spun all these platters - Hot Fives, King Oliver, Bolden, Bix, Henderson and that all along the Mississippi - bunch of guys but I can't remember, on often obscure dates.  He spun the first recordings on up through I think about Ellington's early years.  All those great soloists.  ...So I love horns.  To me Sonny's Secrets of the Sun I linked is intensely beautiful...it's avant garde Ellington, and still as evocative as 1962.  Coltrane, Rollins et al also cited being interested in Gilmore.  Sonny always had great players, Julian Priester, Pat Patrick, Thompson, Allen...

I'm an admirer of contemporary improvisors Sam Rivers, (John Tchicai - Dutch), Braxton, McPhee, Lacy, (and his mate Chris Potter)...many have been mention...but especially Bill Dixon - who's still putting out superlative music - and Andrew Hill, in the U.S.  I loved ensembles like AEC/AACM, WSQ, Rova, Mingus'...of course the Giants -

Then I got heavily into weird European improvisational tradition, art music, etc.

 - incredible how much is happening today.

I'm a bit obsessed - I have most of the classic Blue Note, Riverside, JSP,  Sonny's Saturn, et al., and tons of avant Italian, German and Swiss label stuff collected.

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DavidKOS, 

mandopops

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## mandopops

I hope all this isn’t getting too far afield from the original post. I think it’s the gang posting about all sorts of non Mandilin Jazz faves, players, recordings, & concerts.
Catmandu2’s post reminded me about Chicago’s AACM organization. I first started to pick up on them in the early 70’s. They were definitely a new thing for me, Started hearing Muhal Richard Abrams, Leroy Jenkins, Art ensemble of Chicago’s et all.
The Art Ensemble I saw a few times & they made a profound & lasting impression. They were one of the greatest improvisational experiences I witnessed. I say experiences because they were as much about Theatre as Music. I was into various performing arts. I saw them on stage in a regular Jazz presentation, but a couple of times in a more controlled setting. That’s where they created their magic. It may be difficult to describe. The stage would be set up with maybe a hundred instruments, toys, & props. Funny I think, that Bassist Malachi Favors would have on hand a Banjo, a tenor(?). One by one the players would enter dressed in costume & make up. They would randomly pick up instruments & drift in & out of Music themes. The Music could sound like early New Orleans, to Bop & beyond. There were no clear beginnings & endings. They would be verbal, as well, talk, hollers, chants. An hour later they would come to some conclusion. 
It was Mesmerizing.

Joe B

.

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DavidKOS, 

Rick Jones

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## catmandu2

And Joseph Jarman passed just last week.  He and Mitchell were amazing multi-reedists and theorists - in the mold of Braxton..

The AACM is still going strong.

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mandopops

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## Bruce Clausen

"The AACM is still going strong."

...and Marshall Allen is still leading the Sun Ra group at age 94.  (Sun Ra "ascended" in 1993.) I saw the Art Ensemble play once in Vancouver, but am sorry I never got to see the Intergalactic Research Arkestra live.  

Though he's now long gone, Albert Ayler would be another great sax player to mention in this context.

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mandopops

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## mandopops

Yea, guys, AACM still going strong.
Think it was in 2015 or 16 AACM anniversary thing at Chicago Jazz fest. Muhal composed a major full orchestral work & it was a full set (45 Mins?) piece. Quite an experience. Not every one's come of tea. It was the night's closer, so many took the opportunity to head home. None the less, I stayed. It was a great event.
Yes, heard about Jarmon's passing. Maybe it was about 10 (?) years ago at the fest Jarman & Leroy Jenkins (Violin) played a set. It was cool to hear them together fronting a band.
I never heard Sun Ra. I'm sure that was something to behold.
Just got to add. Bix fest is in Davenport, IA every year. Wife & I go down every few years for a weekend. Usually about 10 or so Trad to Swing bands. Fun time. The other end of the spectrum from AACM. 
So much fits under the Jazz umbrella.
Joe B

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Bruce Clausen, 

DavidKOS

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## catmandu2

> ...and Marshall Allen


In the interview I posted (in the "Deeper/wider" thread) Allen mentioned, "...and I'm still not making any money.."

Jenkins was an amazing improviser as well - saw him with Myra Melford.

MR Abrams in turn led groups and large ensembles for many years - exciting, and innovative.  A distinguished leader, composer and educator.

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## Will Patton

Don, I don't know if your caps lock got stuck on when typing your list but was happy to see Sonny Stitt in ALL CAPS. I think his bop licks lay nicely on mando - I've especially been trying to phrase those straight 16th that he runs in an otherwise swung 8ths solo.  
  Speaking of vibes, I'll sometimes transcribe a Milt Jackson solo to understand that blues drenched thing he has - - sounds great on mando. 
  As has often been mentioned, a key ingredient in the vocabulary is 'vocal' phrasing, an ebb and flow to an improvised melody, with pauses for 'breath' - - as opposed to the string of 8th notes that you'd use for a fiddle tune or bluegrass solo.

-best, Will P

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## Tom Wright

In my jazz workshop group I ‘ve grown to appreciate Joe Henderson tunes brought by the sax players, and pianist Cedar Walton tunes have great swing and cool changes. We’ve tackled Chick Corea. Pat Metheny, and Michael Brecker tunes, and finally we have added Coltrane’s seminal Moment’s Notice. It’s great fun swinging with a full jazz ensemble, although I often am the harmony guy when our piano-playing young resident doc is on call.

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DavidKOS

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## catmandu2

Henderson was a favorite of (my favorite) Andrew Hill's, playing on his seminal recordings - Black Fire, Point of Departure, Pax.  Hill reciprocated on Joe's classic, Our Thing.

An aside, Kenny Dorham also turns up on many of these classic sessions (as did Hutcherson).

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## John Soper

Speaking of non-mandolin jazz, I was lucky to have caught these guys yesterday at the Carrboro DjangoFest:

http://www.rhythmfuturequartet.com

String jazz band, one of the best American gypsy jazz groups.  Great chops all around, this group has much more dynamic and rhythmic diversity than the average gypsy jazz group.  Although he stuck with violin, Jason Anick is a "passable  :Smile: " mandolin player in his own right.

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DavidKOS

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## Don Stiernberg

Hi Will!
        thanks for noticing the caps and for the astute musical observation about Stitt, something I had never considered. I did capitalize his name purposefully as I've been listening to his stuff intently for some time now. His soloing seems to have a wonderful balance of planning and spontaneity, thinking and feeling. It all seems so logical and accessible, yet there are intense phrases that connote screaming or ecstasy. And the sheer volume of his ideas is astounding--chorus after chorus of lines that have a beginning, a middle and an end, that take the listener somewhere and also are connected, and have an arc and flow. My favorite example of this is on a video of him playing Bird's "Buzzy" with J.J. Johnson and Howard McGhee...18 or 20 choruses of blues that put you on the edge of your seat as if you were watching a pitcher throw a perfect game. Interesting to note that Stitt's own assessment of his playing was that he just played nice songs and played "the pretty notes".
          Johnny Hodges was also capitalized-his stuff hits me the same way even though their two styles are so different. Johnny, coming from a Sidney Bechet foundation, featured the bent notes, more open space within and between phrases, hard swing, and immeasurable feeling. As articulate and logical and thrilling but in a different way. Kind of like the B.B. King of the saxophone while one might consider Stitt more like a George Benson of the saxophones.
         And oh yeah omitting Milt Jackson was a bad mistake on my part. Do you play his tune "Bop A'gin" ? Or maybe it's a Jimmy Heath tune..it's on a record he did with Nicholas Peyton and Christian McBride. And way back in the '70's there was the Oscar Peterson Big 6 album, live, with Joe Pass, Nils-Henning Oersted Pedersen, Louis Bellson...they played Au Privave and you can hear the roof lifting off the place.
          The common thread with all these cats is their playing is so SPIRITED. They are thinking about what they're doing, but also energized and just letting it go.

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AlanN, 

DavidKOS, 

John Soper, 

mandopops, 

Rick Jones

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## AlanN

I know the discussion is centered on horn players, + Milt Jackson, but there are some guitarists who capture some of the feeling discussed above, the planned lines plus spontaneity. One cat who fits this bill is Tal Farlow (started on mandolin, btw..). Tal has the melodic control, planned thing down, but adds off-the-cuff remarks, with panache that always makes sense. A fave tune of his was _I Like To Recognize The Tune_...don't we all.

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DavidKOS, 

Rick Jones

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## DavidKOS

> Hi Will!
>         thanks for noticing the caps and for the astute musical observation about Stitt,
> ....His soloing seems to have a wonderful balance of *planning and spontaneity, thinking and feeling*. It all seems so logical and accessible
> 
> ....
>           Johnny Hodges was also capitalized-his stuff hits me the same way even though their two styles are so different.* Johnny, coming from a Sidney Bechet* foundation, featured the bent notes, more open space within and between phrases, hard swing, and immeasurable feeling.
> .


Stitt was a monster on alto, and was so close to Parker's style - on his own, it seems - that Sonny played a lot of tenor to get around that for a while. You descibe his style accurately.

Thanks for mentioning Bechet, often overlooked, and a pioneer of swinging phrasing and harmonic understanding...and exciting! The Hodges-Bechet connection was important.




> there are some guitarists who capture some of the feeling discussed above, the planned lines plus spontaneity. One cat who fits this bill is *Tal Farlow* (started on mandolin, btw..). Tal has the melodic control, planned thing down, but adds off-the-cuff remarks, with panache that always makes sense.


Tal was a massive talent! Where I studied guitar, all the players thought very highly of his work. 

Thanks for adding these guys to the discussion.

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AlanN, 

mandopops, 

Rick Jones

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## AlanN

I was lucky to see Tal on occasion, near the end. He frequently played a Sunday brunch at The Yankee Clipper in Sea Girt, NJ, usually with bass man Gary Mazzaroppi. He was a gracious, quiet man who'd actually take requests. I made a few that he played. He recorded/played with Bird and I have most, if not all, of his output. This Verve box is excellent.

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DavidKOS, 

Rick Jones

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## Pete Martin

Interesting to know Tal started on mando.  While I cant speak with first hand knowledge as Ive not transcribed any of his solos, casual listening tells me he plays way different lines than most guitar players.  Wonder if playing on the fifth tuned instrument influenced that?

Stitts recording are many and are very inconsistent.  He seemed to record a lot with local rhythm sections of various quality.  When he plays with players his level and is inspired, there is none better!  

I recommend the Polygram recording "Sits in with the Oscar Peterson Trio".  Also "New York Jazz" on Verve.  Full frontal Stitt on both!

Ive heard a lot of jazz critics say Stitt was a Parker clone.  Ive transcribed and learned several solos by both and Stitts language is very different to me.  His alto sound is similar, but the lines are all him.  Not nearly the clone like say Lou Donaldson.

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DavidKOS

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## AlanN

Yes, his father started him on mando, but it was tuned like a baritone uke...hey, at least it had 8 strings.

I always thought Stitt shone best on the blues, like on this 1960 date

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## mandopops

Don’t forget another Jazz instrument, the human voice. The Jazz vocalists are important members of the Jazz family. 
Start, of course, with Louis Armstrong. He set the standard for which all others are judged. Armstrong sang the Music with his heart & soul, infused with warmth & humor. 
Bessie Smith, Jimmy Rushing were great Blues stylists. Billie Holiday did wonderful interpretations of pop songs. Nat Cole another great stylist. Grand Jazz divas, Ella & Sarah, I was fortunate to hear live & they were swinging & elegant. I did hear Carmen McRae live & she was great. I seldom hear her name mentioned.
Jon Hendricks, Eddie Jefferson & others developed interesting vocal approaches to the idiom. I loved to hear Mose Allison. He was an eccentric singer, homespun country Blues philosopher. Clark Terry had a unique “mumbling “ scat style. Jumping back to the Art Ensemble of Chicago, they did a track with Lester Bowie’s wife, R&B singer, Fontella Bass, Theme de Yo-Yo. Outstanding.
My favorite Jazz singer, is Chicago’s own Joe Williams. (Not Delta Blues singer, Big Joe Williams). He could sing Blues, ballads, swingers, & scat. He could ad lib talk thru songs. His breakthrough was with Count Basie. You can check out his interpretations of Blues & Standards on a 2fer collection Count Basie Swings/Joe Williams sings & Sings Standards. Check it out. Another Big Band recording Joe did, was a session with the Thad Jones/Mel Lewis Jazz Orch. It is a master work. There is a set at a Newport Jazz fest with Coleman Hawkins & Clark Terry. Good stuff. All kinds of recordings of Joe are available. One of my favorite versions of Green Dolphin Street is Joe singing it with the Adderley brothers. I saw him many times in Chicago, usually a Trio. Though hearing Joe doing a reunion with Count Basie in New York at Lincoln center was a highlight.
Of course, Frankie is a singer of note. There are two live recordings (Paris & Australia) of him with a small 6 piece group (both contain vibes). They are swinging sets. Mr. Bennett is still going strong.
Cassandra Wilson, Dee Dee Bridgewater, Kurt Elling are on the scene & worth checking out.
If there is a tune you want to learn, try & find a good vocal version.

Joe B

P.S. talking about Lou Donaldson, he’s 92 & I think is still playing, saw him again just a couple years ago.

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Carl23, 

DavidKOS, 

John Soper, 

Rick Jones

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## catmandu2

A couple of my favorites by Stitt are the sessions with Barry Harris, Bob Cranshaw and Billy Higgins - Tune Up and Constellation.  The earlier sessions with Bud, McGhee, Johnson et al are essential.

Another guitarist I don't know's been mentioned is Grant Green who played on and led countless sessions with the greats.

Also don't forget vocalist Leon Thomas.  And Herbie Nichols, Evans, LaFaro, Ornette, Sunny Murray (and everyone else connected with the Aylers and Cecil Taylor...like everyone on the Conquistador/Unit Structures sessions).

Jimmy Lyons 
Eddie Gale (Arkestra member)
Ken McKintyre 
Henry Grimes 
Alan Silva
Andrew Cyrille

And as well, virtually everyone playing with Ornette are innovators as well: David Izenzon, Charles Moffet, Milford Graves, Archie Shepp..  Of course it's mostly outre players, but in my view essential in jazz history.

A prominent leader of the New York scene over the past 20+ years, William Parker..

*Green's, Idle Moments, with Henderson and Hutcherson is now on ytube I see..

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## catmandu2

And I have to give some love to Birth of the Cool, Konitz, Tristano, George Russell..  Ellington, through Mingus, to Sun Ra could distill it all for me.  Jazz supported soooo many artists/theorists, schools.  The whole European scene was all about it, exploiting the new idioms.  I like James B Ulmer, and Ornette, and Zorn...all these bands employed and fostered leaders and innovators since the beginning - sidemen from Dodds, Hodges, Gilmore...

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## AlanN

Sonny Clark is a fave for his trio recordings. Mention was made of Grant Green; this is great _Grant Green - The Complete Quartets With Sonny Clark._

And the West Coast produced some great 50's/60's-era collaborations - Shelly Manne and His Men, Shorty Rogers, etc.

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catmandu2, 

DavidKOS

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## catmandu2

Love it.  Sonny is a favorite, love his work with the blue note crew as well.

A pretty good blues record with Jackie McLean, Art Farmer and the section  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3FLd1eBmTU

Hank Jones, Gospel, … I think my favorite blues is Lady Day and Mal Waldron.

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## David Lewis

I agree with the poster who preferred the solidbody jazz guitarists. And indeed, the less 'pure' they are, the more I appreciate them. Wes was great. Wes's copyists, not so much. I can say the same about Jimi, Eddie, James burton, etc. 

My two favourite jazz guitarists are mike stern and Bill frisell. Both bring a different sensibility to jazz that I like, and give me lots of great ideas. Danny Gatton, on redneck jazz explosion is awesome too. 

Toots thielemann on the harmonica is another great non mando jazz artist. 

And for the poster who mentions vocalists, Id add bobby mcferrin to your eminent list.

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DavidKOS

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## AlanN

> Wes was great. Wes's copyists, not so much.


hmmm....Emily Remler, Pat Martino, George Benson - all 'copyists' (not sure what that even means), at one time or another...and all great, imo.




> Toots thielemann on the harmonica is another great non mando jazz artist.


Toots also a fine guitarist.

Many a great guitar:

Billy Bauer
The Raneys (Father Jimmy, son Doug)
Howard Roberts
Joe Pass
Barney Kessel
Herb Ellis
The Pizzarellis - Bucky and John
Joe Puma
Chuck Wayne
John Pisano
Charlie Byrd
plus many others, including many more recent cats

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DavidKOS, 

Rick Jones

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## catmandu2

> I agree with the poster who preferred the solidbody jazz guitarists. And indeed, the less 'pure' they are, the more I appreciate them. Wes was great. Wes's copyists, not so much. I can say the same about Jimi, Eddie, James burton, etc.


Well, Wes influenced _everyone_.  

I prefer modern styles too, and am more apt to be listening to Fred Frith, Ribot or Cline than Jimmy Raney, but every generation has its "greats."   The moderns assimilate what preceded, and expanded.  The vocabulary is extant, not extinct.

If it's "processed" guitar you like, there's a whooole bunch of stuff since Jimi and Eddie..

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DavidKOS

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## David Lewis

> hmmm....Emily Remler, Pat Martino, George Benson - all 'copyists' (not sure what that even means), at one time or another...and all great, imo.


All of those are great. Maybe imitator a better word.

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## Perry

Anybody mention the great Bill Frisell yet? 

Frisell is the master at embellishing the melody. His Fretboard Journal videos are great examples of his recent style. A style that can be translated to mandolin.

A lesson that may be finally sinking in for me: Internalize the melody; learn it everywhere on your fretboard then soloing becomes easier.

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DavidKOS

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## catmandu2

I like Frisell, he's very accessible - good for mndln, as you say.

I like a little more edge, re guitarists:
I like Jeff Parker (another AACM member) and Joe Morris.  Lately I've been listening to Susan Alcorn, and Mary Halverson.

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## catmandu2

This is a gas.  Bit more punked-out  https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...6768&FORM=VIRE


https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...rc&FORM=VDRVRV

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## mandopops

Definitely count be in as a member of the Bill Frisell fan club. He can play straight ahead standards with Paul Motian. He’s done Rock tunes, a Lennon tribute & Guitars in the Space age. He’s explored American roots (Frisell style) in The Willes & Nashville (Mandolin content Adam Steffey, & dobro with Jerry Douglas). Even recording film scores to Buster Keaton silent movies (Buster is a major clown idol of mine, so Frisell gets 5 extra gold stars). He did an album of movie sound trax a couple of years ago. To me, he’s about arrangements, not just play the head, solo, back to the head. 

Joe B

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DavidKOS, 

Rick Jones

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## John Soper

...and if we're talking non-mandolin jazz, don't forget Django on his birthday!

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Carl23, 

DavidKOS, 

Rick Jones

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## catmandu2

Here's some more trad and some nice playing on a great set of tunes, including some Gismonti :  https://youtu.be/LjoD_Wsd43U

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## DSDarr

> Anybody mention the great Bill Frisell yet? 
> 
> Frisell is the master at embellishing the melody. His Fretboard Journal videos are great examples of his recent style. A style that can be translated to mandolin.


Count me in as a Frisell fan too. I'm also a big fan of Julian Lage's. I've been listening to him avidly ever since I accidentally stumbled into a set of his with Chris Eldridge at Wintergrass a few years ago. That was more "folky" than "jazzy" but there was jazz too -- and I've been following him ever since then.

David

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## catmandu2

A cool guitar vid ; Burrell, Kessel, Green:  https://youtu.be/_4jMQNJFPO4

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AlanN

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## AlanN

...and speaking of Kenny

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DavidKOS, 

mandopops, 

Rick Jones

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## Rick Jones

Thanks for that post, Alan. I've got several Kenny Burrell discs, but not this track. I've got one disc of Kenny playing solo guitar. Just sublime.

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mandopops

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## AlanN

> Thanks for that post, Alan. I've got several Kenny Burrell discs, but not this track. I've got one disc of Kenny playing solo guitar. Just sublime.


It's on this

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Rick Jones

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## mandopops

Yes, I’ll join the Burrel fan club with Alan, Rick. One of the greatest Jazz Guitarists. He just oozes the Blues.
Back in high school in the 60’s, I was solidly digging the Rock sounds of the day, Beatles, Dylan, etc. and my Blues journey was just beginning with Butterfield & Bloom & the British Bluesers. Some how during that time, probably through a friend of my older brother, 2 records found their way into our collection, Wes & Jimmy, dynamic Duo & Burrel’s Midnight Blue. Wow! They were mind blowing & ear expanding. We knew these guys were operating on a whole different level. I still listen to those records today (still have the Vinyl).

Joe B

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AlanN, 

DavidKOS

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## AlanN

Other KB faves:

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## Will Patton

_catmandu2:  A couple of my favorites by Stitt are the sessions with Barry Harris, Bob Cranshaw and Billy Higgins - Tune Up and Constellation. _ 

Yup, those were the albums (vinyl, of course) that did it for me. Quicksilver!

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## ralph johansson

Although I improvise a lot and have written jazzlike tunes I'm in no way a jazz musician. It never was my aspiration - as I don't play the piano my harmonic knowledge is too shallow. But most of the music I listen to can be labeled jazz.

To me the most expressive instruments are the tenor saxophone and violin. 

On the latter instrument my favorites from an older generation include Svend Asmussen and Stéphane Grappelli. It was their joint record "Two of a Mind" that put me on the jazz track 50 years ago. More recent favorites of mine include Jason Anick and Benjamin Schmid (who is also a classical virtuoso).

Possibly  the most inventive  tenor player today is Joshua Redman. From the same generation I would list Jeff Coffin, esp. his wonderful albums for Compass, Commonality and Go-Round. Another interesting name is Marius Neset esp.for his trio album with Morten Lund and Lars Danielsson a couple of years ago, recorded in just a few hours.  Older favorites include Lester Young, Sonny Rollins, Stan Getz, Zoot Sims and Scott Hamilton.

On the guitar, my main instrument,  I particularly dig Frank Vignola, Julian Lage and Martin Taylor for their acoustic work. Gypsy swing of course showcases the acoustic guitar, and I dig those who have broadened the idiom, e.g., John Jorgenson and  Olli Soikkeli.
Electric: Barney Kessel for his biting attack and harmonic sense; Bucky Pizzarelli for his duo projects with Zoot Sims and Scott Hamilton. 

I'm not crazy about piano in standard trio settings - I own exactly one album in that genre, Innertrio/8 Bitar, with Jan Johansson (1931-1968). Check out Rebus on YouTube, a wonder  of economy and form. I often feel that trio pianists neglect or dwarf the left hand but that objection certainly does not apply here ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgIjhzG96ko


 I like some piano players for their solo or duo work, e.g., Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea, Kenny Barron (with Stan Getz), Art Lande (with Jan Garbarek or Peter Sommer). Nat Cole contributed beautifully in non-standard trio settings with Lester Young (and Red Callender, bass, or Buddy Rich, drums).

On alto sax I dig some of the older cats like Johnny Hodges and Benny Carter. Parker. Lou Donaldson. I like Ornette Coleman's early work but he got stuck on his pet licks and endless sequencing about 1966. 

Trumpet: Clifford Brown, of course. Miles Davis, but he was so much more, leader, composer, conceiver, etc. His treatment of standards  in the early 60's borders on the surreal.

I'm not crazy about vibraphone, organ, Fender-Rhodes, "live electronics" and voice.

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DavidKOS, 

Rick Jones

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