# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Clawhammer Mandolin??

## jshane

Does anyone here play clawhammer style?  

I have been fooling around with it, and really like it, but I am having a couple issues. 

Specifically, because there are only 4 string-courses, I am finding that I can get my thumb and fingers "tangled", or at least befuddled, when I move the base lines from the G to D string, and drop the melody line (or support) down from the E to the A string. At this point my "claw" seems to get really really small, and the percussive nature of the whole thing gets muddy...

Ideas or thoughts?

Thanks in advance,
-j.

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## Jacob

Try a cavaquinho. Put it in mandolin tuning with a tenor guitar string set, which is about the same tension load as a cavaquinho set in usual cavaquinho tuning.

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Jim Garber

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## Londy

Did you remove one string from each course? I would assume so but you didn't say.

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## jshane

> Did you remove one string from each course? I would assume so but you didn't say.


No, I didn't.  I could... but I actually like the sound of the pairs-- otherwise I would probably just use a tenor guitar. So far, the best approach I have come up with is to kind of twist my claw hand clockwise a bit, so that the thumb and fingers are offset more-or-less horizontally.

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## catmandu2

Try charango--a mandolin-like instrument intended for fingerstyle approaches.  Clawhammer--as well as many other fingerstyle devices--is very effective on this

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## Bluetickhound

Dern you, catmandu!!! Not only do you post really weird youtube videos (that I can't stop watching!!)... Now you have very likely cost me anywhere from $300 to $600 as I now must (MUST!!) have a Charango!

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## jshane

Man, the charango looks very cool.

I think I will stick to the mando, though. It doesnt seem like very many folks are exploring clawhammer on these little wonders.

As an aside, I have had pretty darn good luck with clawhammer on my octave... the little bit of additional size for the right hand, and the extra sustain, both lend themselves....

-j.

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## RobP

Do you use fingerpicks to get volume?

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## jshane

> Do you use fingerpicks to get volume?


I think fingerpicks wouldn't work-- claw hammer (at least as far as MY knowledge goes) uses DOWNWARD motions of the fingers (and thumb)-- which defines it from fingerpicking (or Travis-picking) where the thumb picks down and the fingers pick "up".

In clawhammer, the fingers strike downward percussively, giving that great driving sound....

Of course, I am just learning this style... what do _I_ know??? 

Sure do like it, though.

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## mandolirius

Kind of hard to imagine how it might sound. Can you post an audio clip?

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## jshane

> Kind of hard to imagine how it might sound. Can you post an audio clip?


I can probably figure out how to post audio-- but give me a week or so to try and get the technique down enough to be able to do something worth recording (and even then I bet it will be marginal).

Here is a video of a guy playing clawhammer guitar-- i like the percussive nature of the sound... all the hammer-ons/pull-offs, etc might be a bit stretched on the mando because of the shorter sustain on the mandolin-- but I really like the overall sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsetRrpBdOE

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## Ray Neuman

That is one thing about the Mandolin that intrigues me....the versatility. I have been exploring solo arrangements and even finger picking arrangements. I will have to try clawhammer!

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## mandocrucian

Since this probably wouldn't get mentioned otherwise, I might as well do it myself.  Been playing "clawhammer" sounding stuff on mando since the early 1980's when both Larry Rice and I were (independently) exploring the sonic approach and refining the techniques. 


Hot Solos For Bluegrass Mandolin
 48 Page Book / CD (79' 50")
A lot of players prefer to learn their instrument in a non-theoretical way, as have many of the bluegrass greats. So, here are some hot, tasteful solos for 6 all-time parking lot favorites:
•"Wabash Cannonball" (four solos in G; three solos in A)
•"Cripple Creek" (Key of A, five solos)
•"Shady Grove" (four solos in Dm, plus "Clawhammer" versions of the melody and harmony)
•"John Hardy" (six choruses in the key of A)
•"East Tennessee Blues" (aka "Texas Crapshooter"; six solos in C major including one crosspicked)
•"In The Pines" (3/4 time; five solos in the key of E)
•.....Plus..the basic melodies (and sometimes harmonies) for each of the tunes.

Also, several "Clawhammer" arranged tunes in The Mandola Sampler

Unfortunately, most of the "Clawhammer Mandolin" instructional columns in *The Mandocrucian's Digest* are in now out-of-print issues

Niles H

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jshane

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## mandolinstew

I use it on mandola

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## belbein

> I use it on mandola


I'd like to try it on mandola.  I just started learning it on banjo.  Is it the same down stroke/thumb stroke/strum on mandola?  And on the down-stroke, are you always hitting the root note of the chord you're playing?  (I guess I'm assuming with that last question that you're always playing chords, since unlike a banjo, a mandola is tuned to ... nothing.)

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## belbein

> I think fingerpicks wouldn't work--


Regular fingerpicks won't, but I seem to remember from my banjo days that there are fingerpicks for clawhammer, for those of us without fiberglass fingernails.

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## Sweetpea44

I've always thought this clip was beautiful ....

http://youtu.be/0Jm0U3b26t8

I don't know how he has his instrument tuned, or what key he's playing in.  I would like to try this though at some point.

The notes in the video state that his instrument was originally a cittern and then he converted it to a '5 string mandola' .... I'm guessing it's a longer scale length mandola then?

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## OldSausage

Yes, that does sound really great. I bet it was nice when a cittern, too. 19" scale length, is my guess, longer than your average mandola.

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## jshane

It's been about a week since I first asked the question about clawhammer mandolin. I have been messing around with it since then.

A couple observations-

1. It is harder than it seems... at least partly because the basic rhythm  (Called bum-diddy by the clawing folks) is counted ONE, TWO-AND, THREE, FOUR-AND  with emphases on one and three... if you are used to vamping and chopping, this just plain feels weird. SOUNDS GREAT, but feels weird, and I find myself migrating into what can only be described as a clawhammer-chop..... which itself isnt a bad sound, but does not lead to good clawhammer sound..... More Practice Needed!

2. I am an inveterate fingernail biter-- a habit broken only for 3-months when I was 9 and my grandfather bribed me with my first hunting bow into stopping-- with bow in hand, I promptly started again. YOU NEED FINGERNAILS ON THE THUMB AND FIRST 2 FINGERS OF THE CLAWING HAND... I now have the weirdest looking hands, with 3 growing nails on my right hand and the rest chewed to the quick....

3. This is a GREAT sound... I am going to be working on it a lot-- GREAT potential, particularly when playing solo.

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## belbein

Just happened to be surfing around.  Here's specialty frailing fingerpicks, at Janet Davis music.  I'm just letting you know this is out there, not flogging her site (though I do like her personally and her business and have spent a small fortune with her shop):

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## belbein

[QUOTE=jshane;1222214]the basic rhythm  (Called bum-diddy by the clawing folks) is counted ONE, TWO-AND, THREE, FOUR-AND  with emphases on one and three... [QUOTE]

Something I learned this summer, from a brilliant young banjo player (http://www.banjohangout.org/myhangout/bio.asp?id=39538) who was teaching a class: you don't always "bum-diddy".  You have to learn it, you have to practice it until you're doing it in your sleep ... but when you're playing, a lot of times you're playing only one note, or "pinching" two notes, or leaving out the strum or the thumb thingie.  You do what the rhythm and the melody demands.  I never read that anyplace and no one ever told me.  It would have revolutionized my banjo playing ... if I didn't have a mandola and a mandolin sitting next to my forlorn banjo!

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## dusty miller

I play clawhammer banjo. Not for me on mandolin but interesting idea.

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## Chip Booth

> Regular fingerpicks won't, but I seem to remember from my banjo days that there are fingerpicks for clawhammer, for those of us without fiberglass fingernails.


Actually a standard National metal banjo fingerpick turned over can work pretty well for clawhammer banjo.  I have a couple of specialty picks for clawhammer but have a regular one in the case as well.  That said, I never use a pick of any kind for clawhammer unless my fingernails have been torn off.

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## dusty miller

> That said, I never use a pick of any kind for clawhammer unless my fingernails have been torn off.


I second that, no picks. Bought a couple but don't use them. You can use your middle finger if index starts getting worn or vice versa. Banjo is pretty loud, maybe you need picks for volume on say a mandolin.

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## catmandu2

> ... you don't always "bum-diddy".  You have to learn it, you have to practice it until you're doing it in your sleep ... but when you're playing, a lot of times you're playing only one note, or "pinching" two notes, or leaving out the strum or the thumb thingie.  You do what the rhythm and the melody demands.  I never read that anyplace and no one ever told me.  It would have revolutionized my banjo playing ... if I didn't have a mandola and a mandolin sitting next to my forlorn banjo!


The "bum-ditty" is an ingenious device: it's simple, easy to learn and execute, and very effective in evincing an evocative and alluring dance rhythm.  But without variation, its simplicity becomes rote and uninteresting.  While it's the fundamental technique in playing, of course there is more to good frailing/CH playing than deploying the basic bum-ditty

Like with kit drumming and percussion: the more diffuse and abstract one can disperse melody and contrapuntal figures, deploy nuance in syncopation and create sophisticated rhythmic dynamics--the more interesting one can be with CH; here of course is the strength of CH banjo--an effective fusion of rhythm and melody instrument.  Fingerstyle is highly capacious for creating musical interest.  I encourage you (or anyone) to explore beyond basic CH and experiment with any and all of the devices available to the fingerstylist on all of the (both fretted and non-fretted) stringed instruments (maybe check out some Latin music, ukulele, flamenco guitar, etc., for inspiration)

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jshane

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## catmandu2

oops, I was going to suggest a simple but effective exercise in developing this "rhythmic" finger independence:  (After mastering even-ness with the standard bum-ditty) with or without doing anything with the fretting hand (I find it useful to use the left hand simply for muting the strings in some right-hand isolation exercises), practice playing the bum-ditty while eliminating one of the (bum-dit-ty) elements.  Develop until you are able to play the bum-ditty without (or emphasizing or de-emphasizing) any of its elements, at will, at any time in a figure, phrase, or passage.  I find it effective to play for a few minutes while alternating elimination of each component one at a time--without interruption or loss of fluidity.

These exercises are similar to what a drummer does with hands and feet, and also what classical and flamenco guitarists do with each finger of the right hand in arpeggio, rasqueado, falsetta and tremolo exercises, etc

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## jshane

> Develop until you are able to play the bum-ditty without (or emphasizing or de-emphasizing) any of its elements, at will, at any time in a figure, phrase, or passage.


I have actually been doing this (and a few other things)-- I agree that it seems very helpful at extending the technique beyond the repetitive pattern(s)--- I DO, however, find myself returning all to easily (after introducing one of these variations) into playing the bumdiddy-esque pattern OFFBEAT... 

BUT-- the results of the effort are well worth it-- enormous expansion of syncopation potentials, and incorporation of percussive melodic elements WITHIN the harmonic rhythm of the chord structure. Even old (and a bit tired) favorites take on a whole new life, with exciting new dimensions. Can't wait until I have sufficient chops to try this in front of someone....

I am also finding that my "claw" hand is adapting to the small size of the mandolin. Introducing a slight twist to my right hand (rotating the knuckles of the fingers downward which also moves the thumb up the strings slightly) allows enough offset between fingers and thumb to make it work pretty well..

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## Londy

> I have actually been doing this (and a few other things)-- I agree that it seems very helpful at extending the technique beyond the repetitive pattern(s)--- I DO, however, find myself returning all to easily (after introducing one of these variations) into playing the bumdiddy-esque pattern OFFBEAT... 
> 
> BUT-- the results of the effort are well worth it-- enormous expansion of syncopation potentials, and incorporation of percussive melodic elements WITHIN the harmonic rhythm of the chord structure. Even old (and a bit tired) favorites take on a whole new life, with exciting new dimensions. Can't wait until I have sufficient chops to try this in front of someone....
> 
> I am also finding that my "claw" hand is adapting to the small size of the mandolin. Introducing a slight twist to my right hand (rotating the knuckles of the fingers downward which also moves the thumb up the strings slightly) allows enough offset between fingers and thumb to make it work pretty well..


can you upload a video of this? I would love to see and hear it.

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## belbein

So, not to be insistent, but I gotta know.  Are you guys playing a pseudo-clawhammer, in which the pick plays downstroke on (say) the D string, then hits the (say) G string kind of like the thumb would, then a full or partial strum?  Or are you actually finger-picking?

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## jshane

> So, not to be insistent, but I gotta know.  Are you guys playing a pseudo-clawhammer, in which the pick plays downstroke on (say) the D string, then hits the (say) G string kind of like the thumb would, then a full or partial strum?  Or are you actually finger-picking?


I am NOT using a pick-- I am using my thumb, and the first and middle finger of my right hand-- all strokes are downwards-- i.e., the fingers do not pick up, but rather strike downwards.

Londy-- I will post a video as soon as what I can do isn't pathetically embarrassing...  I havent been able to find any video of anyone playing clawhammer mandolin-- but here is a guy playing an old fiddle tune using clawhammer ukulele-- along with an octave mandolin played conventionally-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDBSBssuhfc

The Uke player has his claw hand "turned down" like I was describing-- probably for the same reasons I need to on mandolin.

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## Sweetpea44

> .... but here is a guy playing an old fiddle tune using clawhammer ukulele-- along with an octave mandolin played conventionally-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDBSBssuhfc
> 
> The Uke player has his claw hand "turned down" like I was describing-- probably for the same reasons I need to on mandolin.


Cool video.  Looks like they offer a book on how to Clawhammer on the uke.  Are you finding it more difficult on the mandolin with double strings?

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## Sweetpea44

jshane~
Curious how your clawhammer practice is going.  Any updates for us?

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## jshane

> jshane~
> Curious how your clawhammer practice is going.  Any updates for us?


Yep-- I am really really liking this style. I am STILL waiting on my fingernails to grow out properly... I was pretty happy to see the first little lines of white.. showed them off to a female friend and she laughed so hard that tea was coming out her nose!  She had never seen such SHORT nails before... You really DO need fingernails to get a good claw "ring" going.

I have been playing Dave Carter's "Cat-Eyed Willie Claims His Lover" -- seems to work out well.

The other little thing that has been a challenge is that traditional clawhammer has the thumb-stroke on the 2 and 4 beats with the fingers hitting on 1 and 3-- for a person used to playing "offbeat" typical of mandolin rhythm, it is different.

GIVE IT A TRY!

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## Chris Rizos

I wonder if there are songs or tunes where this clawhammer technique is better suited.
I have to try clawhammer myself first I guess...

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## belbein

> The other little thing that has been a challenge is that traditional clawhammer has the thumb-stroke on the 2 and 4 beats with the fingers hitting on 1 and 3-- for a person used to playing "offbeat" typical of mandolin rhythm, it is different.


Wait.  I got the impression from fooling around with clawhammer banjo that it was also "offbeat," or "on the backbeat" or some such banjo-speak.  And then working on chopping now, I thought that was ALSO on the offbeat or backbeat.  But it sounds like you're saying the opposite.  Or I'm just not getting it.  

This rhythm thing is kicking my butt.  I mean, "Chop on the up-beat when you're tapping your foot"?!!  Please.  If I could coordinate my feet, I'd be dancing, not playing an instrument.

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## jshane

> ...... Or I'm just not getting it.


Well, it depends on how you count the measure-- in 4/4, you would (traditionally) chop the mando on 2 and 4 OR on the "ands"... ie 1-AND, 2-AND, 3-AND, 4-AND... if you are counting in 2/4 it would be on 2, or the "ands" (1-AND, 2-AND).

In clawhammer, the basic traditional bum-diddy has the emphasis on the opposite beats-- 1 and 3, or the NUMBERS as opposed to the "ands"...

At least, that is the way I have been taught -- but I am a complete clawhammer neophyte...so dont take my word for it.

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## belbein

Thanks, Jshane.  I was taught the opposite with clawhammer banjo.  Or I misunderstood.  One.

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## btwo

> I've always thought this clip was beautiful ....
> 
> http://youtu.be/0Jm0U3b26t8
> 
> 
> The notes in the video state that his instrument was originally a cittern and then he converted it to a '5 string mandola' .... I'm guessing it's a longer scale length mandola then?


The cittern today has 4 double strings and one singel bass string, say 9 strings with 9 tuning pegs. It is not very common used nowadays and has some hilly-billy reputation. One can buy it some time in Germany second hand as "waldzither" ( = forest zither). There are some differetn forms, see i. e- http://www.waldzither.de/dat/bauform.htm. In the UK it will be offered as cittern as a variation with 5 double strings (i got that variation offered as cister in Germany??). 

If you increase the youtube video screen you will find that there are 3 tuning pegs on the uper edge of the peghead and 2 at the lower edge of the peghaed, makes 5. The remaining holes of the obviously removed pegheads are closed by some decorating flowers. Say the instrument has just 5 strings after modification and probably is tuned in fifth? But that is only a guess as the explaining taext says "5-string mandola". 

So, if you will modify a cittern you just can buy such instruments. 

I do some similar experiments in converting banjos to Mandocellos. (See thread http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...-to-mandocello
if interested.)

Kind regards

btwo

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## btwo

> can you upload a video of this? I would love to see and hear it.


There is a youtube introductional video for clawhammer banjo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdWOYFnRiz0
A video tells more than any explanation. 

Here a real clawhammer master using double and drop thumbing to witness the power of clawhammer style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lor0-CB1ag

The banjo has a shorter thumb string, usually (not necessarily) used as a drone and therefore clawhammering the banjo compulsorily sounds different from mandolin. 

I found an example for clawhammering mandolin as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b05mEyyBWbA
in teh video the thumb is used very rarely and therefore the dense rhythm of the banjo is missing. The mandolin clawhammer technique needs some modification, at best a straight bass line for the thumb. It is possible to clawhammer ukulele or guitar as well, but is rarely done. 

Regards 

btwo

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## btwo

Forgot to add that the irish or flatback bouzouki strongly compare to cittern/cister and might be appropriate instruments for experiments as described above.

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## Sweetpea44

Thanks for these videos!  




> There is a youtube introductional video for clawhammer banjo
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdWOYFnRiz0
> A video tells more than any explanation. 
> 
> Here a real clawhammer master using double and drop thumbing to witness the power of clawhammer style
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lor0-CB1ag
> 
> The banjo has a shorter thumb string, usually (not necessarily) used as a drone and therefore clawhammering the banjo compulsorily sounds different from mandolin. 
> 
> ...

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## jshane

OK, an update for anyone interested-- 

After several months of trying to grow decent fingernails, I have realized that my fingernails arent strong enough to really get the beautiful percussive "ring" that I want for clawhammer mandolin. AND, I find that mandolin strings act like "shredders" for fingernails (yeouch!)  BUT, I didnt want to give up on it 'cause it is a dynamite sound/technique.  SO, I found the answer:

Fred Kelly Freedom Fingerpicks!!!   These are plastic thingys that fit on the end of your fingers, and act like fingernails.  THEY ARE PERFECT! No financial interest, etc etc... but these picks really work.  I dont use a thumbpick, but dont seem to need one.

I am happily moving forward on clawhammer style for a few songs including Gillian Welch's Rock of Ages, Tim O'Brien's Red Dog in the Morning, and Sam Bush's version of Banjo Clark. More to come.

Aside from the fingernail issue, it took me awhile to get my right hand situated..... I find that I need to twist my wrist a bit to position my claw-fingers perpendicularly across the strings to allow my fingers to hit the string-pairs more precisely. Actually this involves rotation my hand a bit and also holding the neck a bit higher than normal to get the right angle without strain.

With the Freedom Fingerpicks, the right hand position, a bit of imagination (and a patient wife), this is starting to sound really nice.

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## Sweetpea44

Thanks for the update .... sounds like you're making some good progress.

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