# Music by Genre > Old-Time, Roots, Early Country, Cajun, Tex-Mex >  In The Shadow of Cold Mountain

## John Flynn

I just watched this punk, Jack White, from the "White Stripes" the most ludicrous rock bank I have ever seen, absolutely butcher one of my favorite old-time tunes, "Wayfaring Stranger" on this A&E special. It was as bad as Rosanne Barr singing the national anthem. Even more ridiculous is that he was backed up by the great Mike Compton on mando and a couple other serious traditional musicians. Jack White was obviously trying for "high and lonesome" but it came out like nails on a chalkboard. And where is this guy's traditional music credentials that he gets to do this great hymn on the soundtrack? This is like some kind of musical version of "The Simple Life" with Paris Hilton on the farm.

This is especially ironic and aggregious considering that one of the great, great renditions of this song was done on the "Songs From the Mountain," CD, which was also inspired by the book, "Cold Mountain." On that CD, Tim O'Brien really did that tune justice. Why didn't the suits at the studio have Tim do it? Or any number of other great OT voices? I was all set to see this movie...not now.

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Who issues those "traditional music credentials"? #




> "We brought Jack in because he's a great rock & roll singer," Burnett explains. "There's no one who comes close in the breadth of his knowledge, soul, generosity and courage."
> 
> Burnett also points out that White has a history with the American roots spirit and sounds of Cold Mountain. "He's not a kid who comes to this in this moment," Burnett says. "He's been singing this music for a lot of his life."


Quote is from the Rolling Stone review of Cold Mountain soundtrack.

There's a simple solution, don't buy the soundtrack. #

The "suits" had Jack White do it because he'll sell more copies of the soundtrack than Tim O'Brien and because he's in the movie.

The "punk" with the "ludicrous rock band" has sold a lot of CDs. #That means that there are lots of people out there that like him. #They don't have bad musical taste, they have different musical taste than you.

BTW - I've never bought a White Stripes CD.

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## John Flynn

Tim:

Did you even see the performance in question?

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## J. Mark Lane

> This is like some kind of musical version of "The Simple Life" with Paris Hilton on the farm.


Now that I would like to see.

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No, I didn't see the performance. #I was responding to your ten sentences about the show. #One talked about the quality of his performance, the other nine were on why other people should have been selected. #

It seems to me that following the reasoning of your logic, only the person who does the "best" version of a song will be allowed to sing it and no one will be able to perform in a genre in which they aren't already established.

Just my opinion. I probably over reacted.

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## John Flynn

Tim:

I was probably in the overreaction mode in my original post also, but I had just seen the performance minutes before. My nine-sentence diatribe was just an "after-shock" reaction to how bad the performance was. I would challenge you to see it, I think there is one more off-time opportunity on the A&E schedule where you could tape it. I'd really like to see if you think he did even a barely credible job. Then check out Tim O'Brien's rendition of "Wayfaring Stranger." I think if you do, you will at least appreciate my level of visceral reaction to Jack White's performance.

If Jack White came from another genre and did even a credible job of singing the tune, I would think that was great. I love good cross-overs! But he didn't. He not only didn't sing it well, his stage presence sent the non-verbal message that he wasn't even trying and perhaps he wasn't even "all there."

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## LeftCoastMark

I don't think any of this is surprising. Movie studios, like most record companies, aren't about art or authenticity or talent. The bottom line is all that counts, and the lowest common denominator will get you there. 

Over-the-hill artists and authentic song renditions don't resonate with the young masses. The entertainment industry doesn't care about the soulful beauty of traditional mountain music, it's curb appeal baby -- $ $ $.

With mass media, lower your expectations. Then you won't be disappointed. Oh, and by the way, I sure am thankful that the "O Brother" phenomenon is over. It sure was tiresome to be trendy...

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## John Flynn

> I sure am thankful that the "O Brother" phenomenon is over. It sure was tiresome to be trendy...


Mark: LOL! I agree. BTW, you may be amused to know that a guy from "the left coast," Troy "Rakun" Wiednehiemer, is teaching an "O Brother Jam Class" in St. Louis. Wiedenhimer is from California, now living in Missouri, and is listed in the biography of the Grateful Dead as being the leader of "The Zodiacs," supposedly one of the first professional bands that Jerry Garcia was in. Garica played bass, BTW. Anyhow, Wiedenhimer's "O Brother" class just learns and jams on music from that movie for six weeks. Go figure.

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## GBG

What Mark said! It's always about $$$$$$$$$$. I have spent over half of my life avoiding pop music, pop culture.

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A&E is scheduled to show "Cold Mountain Music Special" again on Sunday at 10:30 am EST. #They also have "In the Shadow of Cold Mountain" on Saturday at 4:00 pm EST which is described as "going behind the film and comparing it to history".

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## LeftCoastMark

As John Prine said in his wonderful song "Spanish Pipedream":

BLOW UP THE TV

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## mandofiddle

I wonder if any of us will be hearing requests at gigs now...

"Do you know that song by Jack White? You know, Wayfaring something-or-another?"

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## earthsave

T-Bone Burnett did this soundtrack. Same as O'Brother... was a bit of news on it earlier today. Allison Kraus in on it and some others.

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For those who saw the show, one article I read talked about a group that does shaped note singing in the movie. Were they one the tv show?

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## earthsave

Here is a snippet I found out their in cyberland.... #Ironic that Tim O'Brien was mentioned earlier and he is part of the soundtrack.

&lt;Other contributing artists include Tim Eriksen, the Reeltime Travelers, Riley Baugus and Tim O'Brien.
"These artists are all true to the sound and spirit of this music," Burnett says. "They cross decades, and centuries, to create traditional music that lives in the moment and reveals the old, coarse truths."&gt;

Reeltime Travelers are an excellent selection to convey the feeling from Civil War era music. Love their banjer picker/frailer and fiddle player and although they are young they sound old.

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## John Flynn

Tim:

I am not familiar with shape note singing, but a large group did come out and sing in an interesting and unique acappella style, so that must have been it. It was very nice! 

One thing that was kind of weird, though, is that they they had the actors from the movie mixed in with the real singers, including Nicole Kidman in the front row, and they kept focusing the camera on the actors. I kept thinking, "No, I want to see the real singers! This is interesting stuff! Nicole is pretty, but I can see her anytime!"

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jflynnstl-

I don't know much about it but shaped-note or Sacred Heart singing is a four part acapella style. #The notes on the music staff have shapes that correspond the notes in the fa-sol-la... scheme. #The most common book is titled Sacred Heart. #It is especially common is some of the Appalachian Baptist denominations like Primative Baptists and Free Will Baptist. #Most of my information comes from trying to find out more after hearing a reference in passing.

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## SteveW

The presence of Mr. White in the movie probably has more to do with nepotism than with trying to sell more tickets or soundtracks. #He happens to be Renee Zellweger's current squeeze. #

I haven't seen the movie, of course, but if his character's name is Georgia and he is a travelling musician, then it sounds like they've made a few changes to the novel. #In the book, if memory serves me correctly, Georgia is the young soldier from that state who finds his way to Cold Mountain and takes up with Ruby and Ada. #Ruby eventually marries him. #It looks like for the movie he is now associated with Ruby's father Stobred (the fiddler) and his banjo-playing companion Pangle. #I would assume Ruby and Georgia get married in the movie, but his character has been changed to give Jack a change to sing.

Sacred Harp singing is amazingly powerful music. #See this web site for more information:

http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/harp.html

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The movie seems to have lots of changes or has misleading previews. I don't remember very many battle scenes in the book but the TV ads are nothing but battles. 

In this case, the movie is the reason for the White-Zellweger relationship not the other way around - I have a teenager in my house who is a White Stripes fan.

Apparently there is a big Sacred Harp event near DC each April. I'll have to check it out.

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## Moose

Among my Louvin Brothers' "archives" is an article/interview given by Charlie Louvin in which he mentions attending and/or listening to much Sacred Harp Singing when he and Ira were youngsters. They were "raised-up" in Northeast Alabama - Henegar(sp.), Ider, Flat Rock (AL). - an area of fertile and spawning-ground of "Sacred Harp Singing"... Go figure... One of my long-standing "projects" has been to research this most profound and beautiful music/art "form" - Thanks to the several posters on this "thread" for the additional info...- Regards, Moose.

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## SteveW

Thanks for the clarification on the White/Zellweger relationship. BTW, from the photos I've seen of the movie, Mr. White plays a bowl-back mandolin in a few scenes.

Yes, in the book the battles happen "off stage," in Inman's memories. I guess the drama of depicting the horrors he witnessed were too irresistable, and they make for a more exciting trailer than shots of a guy trudging through Appalachia.

Here are two recordings of Sacred Harp singing I can highly recommend, recorded, I believe in the Sand Mountain area of Northeast Alabama, which is indeed a center of Sacred Harp singing:

"Harp of a Thousand Strings: All Day Singing from The Sacred Harp," and "And Glory Shone Around: More All Day Singing from The Sacred Harp." Field recordings by Alan Lomax of the 1959 United Sacred Harp Musical Association Convention. These CDs released in January, 1998, are Vols. 9 and 10, respectively in the 13-CD series Alan Lomax's "Southern Journey." on Rounder Records. They are 20-bit digital remasterings of Lomax's recordings of the 1959 United Convention. There are notable closing remarks by Sacred Harp composer A.M. Cagle. Each album includes Lomax's detailed liner notes and photographs of a 1941 singing in Tennessee. Order from record stores or Rounder mail order at 800-443-4727.

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## Moose

Steve : Much Thanks for this information!!

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## Coy Wylie

When I was a kid growing up in the deep piney woods of East Texas, we would go every year to the old Pine Grove cemetery day. There is an old Presbyterian church and a cemetery where many of my pioneer anscestors are buried. But I digress, the point of my post is the Sacred Heart or shape-note singing they would do in the church building on Sunday afternoon. My dad remembers as a child how they had the singing schools to teach the people the shapes or notes so they could learn to sing all the parts of the hymns. It was a wonderful experience and a truly unique sound of vocal harmonies.

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## Scott Rucker

I loved the book so much I read it twice. I loved the Tim O'Brien, Dirk Powell, John Hermann tribute album, too. I still listen to it frequently. I do plan on seeing the movie, but do not have high expectations. It's a Hollywood movie, fercryinoutloud. The nature of the beast dictates that a big budget Hollywood film absulutely must appeal to the broadest possible segment of the public. I understand that the vast majority of movie-goers around the globe don't have the same interest in Appalachian history and culture that I, a native Appalachian and self-professed history buff, do. If the movie bothers me too much, I'll leave, swing by the library to check out the book, and read it again. I've wasted too time and money on plenty of other things to get too worked up about a movie or soundtrack that doesn't suit me. I do understand Johnny's disappointment and am not trying to marginalize it. I've just come to expect to be disappointed by these affairs.

Part of the what draws me to old time music is cultural, it's my heritage, and part of it is that I'm drawn to less commercial forms of music. If old time fiddle and dance music did become the flavor of the day, like roots country and bluegrass did during the OBWAT craze, I'm not sure how happy I'd be.

Respectfully,

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## Jon Hall

I saw the performance in question. I didn't think it was bad at all. The singer had some "grit" in his performance, which I prefer in any folk music. I've heard many renditions of "Wayfaring Stranger" that were so smooth and slick that they were boring.

Sacred Harp singing is happens in east Texas. What makes it unique are the arrangements and the fervor and intensity of the singing. 

Shaped notes are used in a lot of published music other Sacred Harp. The "Heavenly Highways" hymnal is still published with shaped notes. Shaped notes were used to teach singing schools. Each shape represents each note of a scale 1 thru 7. When a song is sung acapella, the leader "toots" the 1st note on a pitch pipe.

Jon Hall

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I have a brother who is a Free Will Baptist minister and on my last visit I was look at his hymnals. #All had the shaped notes.

From a music theory perspective, does the shape provide different information than the staff it is placed on or is is a parallel notation?

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## Coy Wylie

> Sacred Harp singing is happens in east Texas. What makes it unique are the arrangements and the fervor and intensity of the singing.


Jon, do you live in East Texas? I going back home next week. I miss it.

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## fangsdaddy

guys:
let's clarify something. the white/zellweger relationship happened after the filming of the movie. they met there. jack white was hired to play a part in the film. he wasn't hired because he was involved w/a star.
i didn't see the a&e broadcast in question. but i do know from seeing the white stripes that they're (he and meg---they're a blues-based guitar/drum duo for those of you who avoid popular culture) introducing teenagers to the music of son house, leadbelly & robert johnson (i've seen the stripes cover all three in concert). this is much like what the stones did to me when i was a teenager in the 70's. & truthfully, the white stripes are one of the few new rock bands out there that are any good in my humble 45 year old opinion.
your mileage may vary.
sam

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## David M.

Lots of this discussion on Tim O'Brien's forum. 

There someone mentions that the movie wasn't filmed in North Carolina or even the U.S.A., but Romania.

Is this true? And, WHY FOR GOODNESS SAKES? Stuff like this bugs me. Tim and Dirk should have done the entire soundtrack.

DM

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Romania now looks like Appalachia did in the 1860s, maybe?

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## John Flynn

> Romania now looks like Appalachia did in the 1860s, maybe?


Maybe. But Appalachia still looks like Appalachia in the 1860s! From what I read about the entertainment industry lately, the mantra seems to be cost control. Done right, offshore shoots in depressed countries can save big bucks, especially on things like extras and set labor. My guess is that is more likely the motive.

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> But Appalachia still looks like Appalachia in the 1860s!


I grew up in a coal mining town and today it doesn't look like it looked in the 1960s much less the 1860s. #There are few places in Appalachia where they could film a mountain top vista without seeing power lines, strip mine scars or the haze of polution.

But, I'll concede your point, it was most likely cost driven.

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Jacob -

Thanks for the link to _The Sacred Harp_. #I'd memorized the BEADGCF for the order of the flats in a key signature but in that book I found a logical explanation of the order.

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## Gary S

Riley Baugus of Walkertown NC who does some playing and I believe is on screen some in the movie, is a great choice for conveying the true Old Time feel.

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jflynnstl -

I will agree, Jack White's redition of Wayfaring Sranger was not that impressive. His fake Applachian accent really grated on me.

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## Jacob

Riley Baugus and Cold Mountain
"He's the best claw-hammer banjo player in the United States," says Polecat Creek singer-songwriter Laurelyn Dossett. "That might be a slight exaggeration, but he's in the top five."
Cold Mountain - Not Made in North Carolina
"About two years ago, the producers moved "Cold Mountain" to Romania because they realized they could save $12 million from a $83 million movie by filming it in a rugged land, devoid of development, where snow fell six months out of the year."

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## LeftCoastMark

ahhh, hollywood. as if anything coming from there really had any meaning at all...

If yer playing traditional music, why care about what those doyens of the bottom line are producing? Just do it.

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## garyblanchard

While we may bemaon the fact that Jack White is singing Wayfaring Stranger we can be sure that this will lead some people to seek out the originals and help turn more people on to Old-Time music. I believe that we need those with a media spotlight to turn attention to types of music that are often overlooked in our commercial world.

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## ira

amen.

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## Jacob

Blue Ridge Parkway's Cold Mountain sign back in place

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## John Flynn

Since the people who speak for this movie seem to be falling all over themselves to wave the flags of "authenticity," "honesty" and "courage," shouldn't that sign be moved to Romania along with the money and the jobs?

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## Jacob

No. #
The sign belongs where it is, overlooking Cold Mountain.
Hopefully, the movie will increase interest in the locations where the story told in the book took place.
Come and see the real Cold Mountain.

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## GVD

> jflynnstl 
> 
> I just watched this punk, Jack White, from the "White Stripes" the most ludicrous rock bank I have ever seen, absolutely butcher one of my favorite old-time tunes, "Wayfaring Stranger" on this A&E special. It was as bad as Rosanne Barr singing the national anthem. Even more ridiculous is that he was backed up by the great Mike Compton on mando and a couple other serious traditional musicians. Jack White was obviously trying for "high and lonesome" but it came out like nails on a chalkboard. And where is this guy's traditional music credentials that he gets to do this great hymn on the soundtrack? This is like some kind of musical version of "The Simple Life" with Paris Hilton on the farm.
> 
> This is especially ironic and aggregious considering that one of the great, great renditions of this song was done on the "Songs From the Mountain," CD, which was also inspired by the book, "Cold Mountain." On that CD, Tim O'Brien really did that tune justice. Why didn't the suits at the studio have Tim do it? Or any number of other great OT voices? I was all set to see this movie...not now.


I finally got the chance to see this program and really don't understand why you hated it so much. Yes Jack White isn't Tom O'Brien. But then no one else is either so I can't hold that against him. That also doesn't make him a "punk". BTW one of those other "serious traditional musicians" playing with him was Stuart Duncan. If you think the "White Stripes" are the most ludicrous rock bank you've ever seen then you must not get out much. What are your "rock music credentials" that lead you to make such a statement? #They happen to be the only band that I know of that were the musical guest for an entire week on a late night talk show (Conan O'Brian). 

GVD

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## Moose

Aaaahhh... come on boys, it's a New Year....

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## LeftCoastMark

"...traditional music credentials...." come from those who're playing the music. Thank god fer blacktop parking lots, half-arse-ed fiddlers, long sunsets and hollywood schlock.

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## John Flynn

> They happen to be the only band that I know of that were the musical guest for an entire week on a late night talk show (Conan O'Brian).


Wow! On Conan! Well, I take it all back then.

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## fangsdaddy

mando johnny
ok dude. come clean. you're bashing jack white on 3 seperate threads around here. why does the guy iritate you so much? have you ever really listened to a 'stripes disc? or are you just going after the persona you see in rolling stone?
sam
(i'm 45. i still like to rock......)

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## John Flynn

I've seen the Stripes on TV multiple times, enough to know that I wouldn't even use one of thier CDs as a coaster if someone gave it to me. The first time I saw them was on Letterman and I thought it was a one of Dave's parodies. I had a hard time believing it was actually supposed to be a serious act. But I thought, OK, whatever, there are lot of acts out there I don't care for. But this whole Cold Mountain thing is very dissappointing to me.

So you want me to "come clean." OK, I'm even older than you and I have been rockin' since I can remember, both as a fan and a guitarist. BTW, I have very wide tastes in music, everything from punk rock, to hip hop, to old-time, to season tickets to the opera. With White, I called it like I saw it and I stand behind it. People wanna disagree, that's OK. People challenge my right to have an opinion, I'll mix it up with 'em. I have fun either way!

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## fangsdaddy

mando johnny
having your own opinion is totally cool. & you're a better man than me. i don't think i could hang with the opera.
sam

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## mikeyes

I had the same reaction to Jack White when I saw the A&E promo of the movie. 
If you really want ot hear a moving rendition of Wayfaring Stranger, listen to the Monroe version on the Smithsonian record of his concerts. While it is not studio perfect, it is hair raising. WSM gets the words wrong, he misses timing on his solos and it is still powerful stuff.

Mike Keyes

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## garyblanchard

Maybe the problem here is that some people are looking for credibility from Hollywood. Next you'll be wanting credibility from Washington, too. #

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## LeftCoastMark

Go Gary! I think what we're getting from both is incredibility

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## mrbook

I haven't seen the special, but one of my bandmates loaned me the soundtrack CD at practice last night. Some nice playing from Mike Compton, Norman Blake, Stuart Duncan, and a few others, but I can't take Jack White's singing - or most of the others. I can listen to Dock Boggs, Clarence Ashley, and other old guys all day, but this has no authenticity. I'll save myself a trip to the movies and rent it later.

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## Garrett

Man this thread is too long. I shouldn't add to it, but. 

I spend most of my time on this Cafe arguing for people like Buzz Busby and Big Mon. Traditionalism. I love traditional bluegrass and mountain music. 

The other day I was listening to a local radio station and the first number up was the Goins Family doing some gospel. Fantastic. Then Dr. Ralph with Jim Lauderdale. Blew my head right off. And then there was a terrific version of Sitting on Top of the World. Unlike any of the other 1,000 version I've heard. Kind of a cool 1920s swing lilt to the fiddling and wonderful phrasing on the singing. I waited in anticipation to here who it was, and lo and behold it was Jack White. If you had told me it was Jack White beforehand I might have been snobby like y'all. I will buy the CD just to get that performance.

I own "Songs from the Mountain" and like it a lot. But I have to admit some of Tim O'Brien's singing just doesn't do it for me. A little too adult contemporary. When I compare his Wayfaring Stranger to Bill and Pete Rowan it sounds like its a VH1 version. But this Jack White version of sitting on top of the world brought back some of the great weird mystery of the Harry Smith Anthology, Roscoe Holcomb. It was great. And you are all just snobs who listen with your eyes not your ears.

Flame on.

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## John Flynn

> And you are all just snobs who listen with your eyes not your ears.


Now, why did you have to go and add that last sentence? Up to that point, I was thinking, "This may or may not be an opinion I agree with, but it is well considered and well delivered. It is worth considering." Then you had insult your fellow board members who were only giving thier opinions. That puts a whole different spin on it.

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## Garrett

Just being obnoxious and tongue in cheek. Note that I said I would have had the same reaction. I think many lovers of traditional music would. So don't take it seriously.

I seriously think that we often prejudge with our eyes and then evaluate the sounds in relation to them. That's just the way things are. That's also one of the pleasures of hearing something new you love on the radio, you can't do that!

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## John Flynn

Garrett: 

That's cool. I will have to say that I tuned into the Cold Mountain A&E special with great anticipation. I love the book and its implications for old time music and I love the "Songs From the Mountain" CD. When I saw the Wayfaring Stranger performance, I really did not realize it was Jack White doing it at first. I was thinking, "That guy looks familiar, but I can't place him." So I was not prejudging who he was. He really did a very poor job of performing the tune, IMHO, and it is one of my favorite tunes. I later listened to the soundtrack and I will say he did somewhat better doing the tune in the studio. I am glad to hear there are some things he does well. I was not aware of the work you describe. But as I have said before, I am a passionate fan of a wide variety of music and performers and I fully support crossover artists, as long as they cross over well. It is MHO that White was ill chosen for this music and I also am not impressed with the White Stripes. No offense meant to anyone, except maybe Jack himself, and I doubt he is on this board.

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## Aprilibre

I'm putting my support in for White Stripes. I like them, I like Jack. I saw the movie, didn't realize that's who it was, but I liked the version BECAUSE it was not sweet. It was poignant. I liked it in the same way that I appreciated the singing of the preacher in the little country church where I grew up. He couldn't carry a tune to save his life, but it didn't stop him from putting his soul into it.

Which brings me to the one thing that TRULY annoyed me about the movie, which is this: When everyone was singing in church, everyone was in perfect tune and tempo. Wouldn't happen! No raspy voices, no one a little out of tune and unable to keep the rhythm, come on....there's a total break from reality. What was that about Hollywood?

I'm going to go get the book now. And the soundtrack.

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## John Flynn

Aprilibre:

OK, let's agree to disagree on Jack White. However, my understanding of the church singing in the movie is that it is "Shape Note Singing," also known as "Fasola" or "Sacred Harp." It is a unique traditional music genre that was invented for rural congregations that did not have instruments or professional chior directors. I don't completely understand it, but a friend of mine is really into it and it seems they have methods in the tradition for keeping each other on key and on tempo. My friend tells me that the singing in the movie is the real deal.

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## Aprilibre

So that's why they were doing that thing with their hands, too? And it wasn't a traditional sounding hymn? Hmmm....now I understand what you all were talking about in the previous posts. It was truly beautiful. I'm going to research that a little more. Thanks!

(I still don't believe EVERYONE sings beautifully, even with help....) 

:)

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## cutbait2

yes it was an actual shape group from small Libery Baptist church in Henegar, Alabama that was recorded singing, but they were not the actors in the church in the movie, the group recorded about 25 songs for the movie. the song book "the Sacred Harp" seen in the movie is still being used.

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## cutbait2

should be Liberty

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## Moose

Henegar, Alabama - Sand Mountain - Boyhood home of The Louvin Brothers... Go figure.. (Charlie Louvin talks about he and Ira  attending these "singings"/church services in a interview.. - the source of which I cannot recal at the moment). Moose.

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## Gary S

Went to the movie theater last night and saw Cold Mt. It was a great movie. The book was unforgetable. Anyway there was some nice mandolin playing in a few of the scenes. Anyone no who is credited with the playing....Gary S

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## Atlanta Mando Mike

Didn't see the special, but the white stripes are a great rock band-as far as those go these days. A duo, just guitar and drums and they can pull it off. Ay least they are very creative. That said I'm sure it was horrible within that context. They have a little Led Zeppelin influence going on-Rock on

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