# Music by Genre > Old-Time, Roots, Early Country, Cajun, Tex-Mex >  How to play old time mandolin

## Goodin

Hello - Im more of a bluegrass picker and I have recently got into playing irish bouzouki in GDAD tuning. I really love old time music but I have not tried playing the mando with it. Is there a technique to it? I noticed that old time music sounds to me like "americanized reels" I would say. So I was at a jam a few weeks ago and I tuned my mandolin to GDAD (the zouk tuning I use in trad irish) and did a cross picking technique which sounded alot like the old time banjo. I thought it sounded pretty good. Is this acceptable, or even a technique people use alot? There were other mando players there but they were playing mostly melody. Any advice on techniques and recordings of old time mando would be great! THanks - Goodin

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## mandolirius

Sounds like a plan to me. When I'm at an old-time jam, I deliberately don't play the melody. The reason is that, imho, a lot of the tunes incorporate into the melody quarter tones, bow shuffles and things the mandolin really can't do. There's always the option of playing counter melodies or just straight rhythm but what I've decided to do it to try and play something that's closer to what the banjo players do, which is a sort of mixture of rhythm and counter melody. 

I'm just trying to find a complementary place for the mandolin in these jams. The guitars and basses have the rhythm pretty much covered and the fiddles play the melody, so I'm looking at what's left. Getting with the banjo players is what's been working the best to my ear.

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## Troyer

Check out musicmoose.org 
He has a couple lesson on the mandolin about old time playing. Just a thought.

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## John Flynn

There is a lot of hard-core OT music played in my area (Missouri/Illinois). I can only say how it goes here. Other areas may do it differently. 

This is the basic approach: The mandolin can play rhythm or melody, and can switch between them in a tune for variety. On rhythm, the mando plays open, two finger chords with a boom-chuck strum that works with what the guitars are doing. You hit the G string one the down beat, come up and then just let the pick fall through on the G, D and A strings. Only sound the E string very lightly or not at all, or the rhythm can sound shrill. 

On melody, you just play the straight up melody, using double stops, tremolo, as you like, but make sure it fits in with whatever the lead fiddle is playing. A great example of the Midwest style is Curtis Buckhannon's playing on the Ill-Mo Boy's "Laugh and Grow Fat" CD. Of course, at a more advanced level, there are lots of things you can do, but what I've described is what happens the vast majority of the time.

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## Goodin

I appreciate the replies. Sounds like what I am doing is similar to what you guys do. I also throw in the syncopation and counter melodies and some chop (not much though because I get tired of that from bluegrass!). No one seemed to mind what I was doing so I guess they thought it sounded good too. Hey what is a double stop? I hear lots of talk about that but dont know what it is. 

Hey MandoJohnny - Since alot of old time tunes are in D you can try tuning the E string down to D and get a very cool drone sound. I do a rolling crosspicking technique. It also works well with songs in A or D, and you can just mute the high D if you play in other keys that it wont work. Just a trick I thought of from playing the Irish zouk.

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## PseudoCelt

I only really dabble in OT music, but...

For a while, I tuned my mandola to GDGD. I found this worked really well for playing mandolin with a clawhammer banjo feel. The advantage of using a mandola for GDGD was that I could capo up to AEAE when necessary and still have a roughly mandolin-length scale. The open tuning also seems to suit the tone of the flat top and the larger body.

Patrick

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## John Flynn

> Hey MandoJohnny - Since alot of old time tunes are in D you can try tuning the E string down to D and get a very cool drone sound. I do a rolling crosspicking technique. It also works well with songs in A or D, and you can just mute the high D if you play in other keys that it wont work. Just a trick I thought of from playing the Irish zouk.


Thanks, I'll experiment with that. I'm actually going to start learning Irish zouk this year and of the available options, I will probably use GDAD as my main tuning.

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## Fred Keller

I've been doing a lot of thinking on this topic lately for a variety of reasons. It seems to me to be the case that the mando is--for the most part--seen as a supporting cast member to the fiddle and, to a lesser extent, the banjo. I don't believe that it needs to be (Buckhannon Bros, Skip Gorman, etc.) but it's still...what?...a developing instrument in the old time canon?

I'd like to propose that one should give strong consideration to right hand technique and utilizing chords and drones as part of playing old time. 

Right hand technique should be seen as exactly on par with the importance of strong bowing technique. The fiddle provides some direction, I think, in terms of pulse, accent, and rhythm. I like to see what I can get from my right hand when I play OT tunes--that's where the voice is.

As for chords, drones, etc., I think that's where the mando has a distinct edge over other instruments. We can play lead and backup at the same time. Sure, the fiddle can do drones, but mostly 2 strings; rarely three. The banjo can chord, but it's usually a syncopated pattern. I like to let strings ring under and around the melody. That's a unique mandolin voice, to me.

I suspect there's more to explore here, but these are just a couple thoughts that pop to mind after an underwhelming mandolin experience at the Lanesboro Bluff Country Gathering last weekend. The jamming was great, the talent top notch, but frankly, the mandolin classes were "here's a couple tunes. I'll play 'em slow and you learn 'em." That's fun but I was hoping for more insights. Guess we'll have to develop them here

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## a12

I would suggest getting some recordings of the Camp Creek Boys on County Records. Excellent rhythm mando.

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## Don Christy

> I'd like to propose that one should give strong consideration to right hand technique and utilizing chords and drones as part of playing old time. #
> 
> Right hand technique should be seen as exactly on par with the importance of strong bowing technique. #The fiddle provides some direction, I think, in terms of pulse, accent, and rhythm. #I like to see what I can get from my right hand when I play OT tunes--that's where the voice is.


Fred, I couldn't agree more. 

I enjoy trying to really lock into the pulsing rhythm of OT tunes. I was recently in an OT ensemble with 4 fiddles. Talk about being awash in melody. When the fiddles really start to lock in and create a pulse, it's almost palpable. Playing rhythm was much more than boom-chuck. Hard to describe, but real none the less.
Don

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## RobP

Is it considered acceptable to add a harmony line?

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## JeffD

Some great examples of mandolin leads in OT.

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## JeffD

> It seems to me to be the case that the mando is--for the most part--seen as a supporting cast member to the fiddle and, to a lesser extent, the banjo. #I don't believe that it needs to be (Buckhannon Bros, Skip Gorman, etc.) but it's still...what?...a developing instrument in the old time canon?


I don't think OT music is as well defined as BG. The boarders are fuzzier, and not as well defended. Nobody ever told me "that's not old time".

I agree that fiddle seems to dominate, but I think that is because strong melody lines dominate, less improv more tune. Less break taking and more unison playing

Mandolin has many advantages over other instruments, as described, and OT doesn't have a strong central figure like a Bill Monroe, to define how the mandolin contributes.

In OT I like mandolin as a lead instrument, or in unison with the fiddle. Just sounds right.

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## mingusb1

One of my favorite topics to read on and discuss! I am going to experiment with alternate tunings, that sounds cool!

One thing that seems clear is that oldtime mandolin is not as narrowly defined as bluegrass mandolin. That said, you will fairly frequently run in to oldtime players (fiddle and banjo) that don't really care for mandolin in the mix at all, whereas it is obviously a cornerstone of the bluegrass sound.

One factor that guides oldtime mandolin in terms of melody versus rhythmic/accent playing is the repore between the fiddler and the mandolinist. If you specifically work-up tunes with a fiddler you can get to "note for note" playing with the fiddle. This notwithstanding the "semi tone" licks that a fiddle is capable of that someone else mentioned here. I think this is a great sound, although I have only done this on a handful of tunes with a couple of fiddlers I know. I would mention the Foghorn Stringband as an example.

On the other hand, if you are entering a jam setting it is likely you will not immediately know the fiddlers phrasing of a tune. In this case I'd say chording, double-stopping, and droning are the places to start. Also, if the group already has numerous fiddles on the melody, as someone mentioned earlier, it may support the overall sound best to work the chords and double-stops to bolster the guitar and banjo.

So I guess the oldtime mandolin has to know it all. Jeez!

Hey Fred, how are you? I am planning to come to MN at the end of July and attend the fiddle contest up in Cotton. Have you been to it?

Z

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## JeffD

I am a stronger melody player than back up or improv - (probably explains why I enjoy it more). Going note for note with the fiddle(s) works well and sounds great. And the OT fiddlers I know love it.

I have had some fun taking my bowlback to the OT jam. I can play the bowlback a little faster for what ever reason, and the sound of the instrument is distinctive - its a great time.

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## MikeVB

Whatever you do, don't chop. If you don't believe me, just take this guy's word for it......

"I don't chop." - Norman Blake

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## sgarrity

Listen to Mike Compton play on the last 3-4 John Hartford recordings. That's a master class in old-time mandolin.

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## JeffD

> Whatever you do, don't chop.


Yea. Pretty much. Gentler chords on the up beat, especially on faster tunes, might be just fine; but the percussive chop of bluegrass is so iconic of that genre that in OT it would stick out like a dandelion on the fairway.

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## Joe F

The only exception I use to the "no-chop" rule is when somebody is singing. #In those cases, I play gentle chop chords -- not nearly as percussive as a BG chop, but the strings are muted enough so they don't ring out and override the singer's voice.

On instrumental tunes, I tend to alternate between playing melody and open chords. #I try to follow the fiddle line as closely as I can, but usually omit some of the ornamentation.

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## Alex Fields

I don't think there is any one way to play mandolin (or anything else, but mandolin especially) in old time music. There is just not enough of a tradition to justify statements about the way it is 'usually' done.

Outside of classical music, old time is my main interest now. I do a few different things on mandolin. One thing is just to play open chords and let them ring. Another is to play melody, in which case you take your cue from the fiddle, adding in double stops where you can and letting the open strings ring...but I don't retune mandolins like you would a fiddle so sometimes that's not doable. The other thing I do which is (to me) the most interesting thing is to imitate old time banjo playing in a variety of ways, often by alternating between notes (sometimes hammer ons or pull offs) on the E strings and either up stroke chords or two quick chords (with an up then a downstroke)...it's probably easier to demonstrate than to explain but the idea is just to imitate the type of chords and rhythm a clawhammer banjo player would use, except since there's no high string for the thumb like on a banjo you have to use the E strings and do it backwards.

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## hoffmannia2k7

I have recently found a ton of mandocentric old-time music, not just blues, and all the styles are very different, but a common theme I find is great tremelo control producing a very stately sound.

The leake county revelers, kentucky string ticklers, walkers corbin ramblers, three stripped gears, and the tobacco tags are a good place to start, imho. 

I have picked up book one of the Bickford mandolin method off of Django books and it is helping immensely with this tremelo control. The tunes I am referencing are not really fiddle tune old-time though.

Another resource is ebay - on ebay I ahve found a number of mandolin books from the early 20th century. I find if I want to play like they did 80 years ago I should learn from the places they learned.

The old-time music I am into, though, is the sleeker city sound as opposed to this hillbilly stuff now pigeon-holed as old-time. Even the skillet lickers recorded down on Peachtree in Hotlanta and Lowe Stokes is quoted as saying that he hated playing that hillbilly garbage, but that was where the money was...

Long Story short, I have photocopies of a lot of these books (excluding bickford because that is for sale still on django) if anyone is interested pass me on your mailing address and I can mail it to you

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## Trey Young

> Listen to Mike Compton play on the last 3-4 John Hartford recordings. That's a master class in old-time mandolin.


Shaun beat me to it. I only have one of these albums, Speed of the Old Long Bow, but have quite a few live shows. I just got one where it is just Hartford, Compton, and Darren Vincent on the bass. It's a tremendous show. Check out Tut Taylor's Steam Powered Preservation Society (www.thespps.org, they also have a wonderful recording of an impromptu performance featuring a certain mandolin and guitar master-Monroe and Blake).

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## allenhopkins

This thread seems to be mainly about what play _other_ than the melody, but I would suggest also listening to *Kenny Hall,* blind bowl-back mandolin player who picks with his index finger. #(Not that I'm advocating either blindness or index-finger picking.)

Here's a link  to his website, which includes some short (35 second) MP3's of his playing. #I heard him about 35 years ago at Fox Hollow, and have one of his '70's records with the Sweets Mill String Band (which also included Jim Ringer). #Hall mostly plays melody, but in a distinctive non-bluegrass old-timey style.

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DavidKOS

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## Capt. E

I don't think anyone answered you question about what a double stop it...

A double stop is simply playing two strings simultaneously. Both can be open, one fretted or both fretted. On violin it's where you bow two strings at one time.

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## JeffD

> you will fairly frequently run in to oldtime players (fiddle and banjo) that don't really care for mandolin in the mix at all,


Yes, and because of that you always have to LISTEN, and play tastefully, and try to make the whole sound better for your participation.

I recently had a mandolin instructor tell me, specifically with regard to OT music: "everything the fiddle needs is supplied by the banjo, and everything the banjo needs is supplied by the fiddle. The two compliment each other perfectly. They are a complete little OT machine. Now you walk up with your mandolin - you should ask yourself, what is it you are going to add to that already perfect combination."

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stevedenver

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## woodwizard

When I play old-time ... when I'm not playing the melody I use a sort of banjo uke kind of chunkatty chunkatty chucka rhythm while throwing in maybe some double stops and utilizing open chords a lot for some droning effects. What ever sounds good to my ear on the blend

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Charles E.

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## Gan Ainm

Ellen Vigour is along with husband Pete a mainstay of Western Virginia OT in (great) group "Uncle Henry's Favorite" and a gazillion jams. Unpretentiously fits right in with a variety of approaches on mando as seen in this jam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xWTGcA3r28.
And does some great things with a gigantoid Mando-Banjo!
I don't play a lot of OT but when I do  I TRY to do it "just like Ellen"!

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Bill Findley, 

billkilpatrick, 

Jim Nollman, 

Werner Jaekel, 

woodwizard

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## Gary Alter

I second Colin's suggestion, Ellen Vigour does a very cool shuffling rhythm on OT mandolin. Worth checking out any available YouTubes of her with Uncle Henry's Favorites. She and her husband Pete are always at the OT jams here in Charlottesville so I've been able to play along side of her during the jams and she's a driving force.

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## Wilbur James

Check out Adam Tanners "Shuffle of the Pick" you won't be disappointed.

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## Charles E.

This is a pretty nice example from the Foghorn String band.

It's all in the right hand.

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Jess L.

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## George Henry

I have been playing old time music for many years, but as a guitar player and clawhammer banjo player.  I had some experience with mandolin as a bluegrass picker, but old time mandolin is different.  For one, I use an oval hole A model to get more open, ringing tone.  I also use open, ringing chords as much as possible.  I try to use drones as much as I can get away with musically.

Old time is great fun and learning such great tunes is a blast.

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## JeffD

The Harvard and Yale of old time mandolin playing, according to many, is the Blue Sky Boys. An old time mandolin workshop leader said something like "get the Blue Sky Boys box set and play nothing else for a year."

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billkilpatrick

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## billkilpatrick

> The Harvard and Yale of old time mandolin playing, according to many, is the Blue Sky Boys. An old time mandolin workshop leader said something like "get the Blue Sky Boys box set and play nothing else for a year."


"Classic Country Remastered" - Saved! - Grazie!  Who can resist a tune called "I'm just here to get my baby out of jail?"

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## Cary Fagan

While I don't use chop chords I do sometimes use chop shapes when I play rhythm. Or else I use open chords but alternate between hitting the base and treble strings.  Ringing open chords can be good backing up a single fiddle but in a bigger jam can get annoying to listeners, in my experience.

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Jim Garber

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## sbhikes

I have been attending a jam for 10 years. The only other mandolin player there always played the melody so I copied him. He's really good and can fit in all the notes. I can't quite fit all of the notes in so I sort of fake it through some of the notey-er tunes. Recently another guy showed up who didn't know any of the tunes so he plays just chords, which sounds nice. The original guy who plays melody often leads and you can hear him from a long ways away. Usually the mandolin players play melody and in some spots they'll put a chord in so it doesn't sound so empty. Sometimes just a double-stop chord, sometimes a fuller chord. So long as it sounds like old-time music, I think most people won't mind what you are doing. Mandolin players who play only chords seem to me that usually they are new to the music and since they don't know the tunes they sort of resort to the chords. Others seem to stick with just chords because they prefer to sort of hide in the background and don't want to be called to start any tunes.

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billkilpatrick

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