# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  The singer doesnt play an instrument?.....

## thejamdolinplayer

This isn't exactly a mandolin topic, but I know I will get plenty of feedback here on the cafe..

Why is bluegrass music the only type of music where people want to complain if the lead singer or harmony singer dont play an instrument.?  It is mainly females in this genre that dont play and sing but what is the big deal if they dont, they play an instrument and that instrument is their voice,

I have heard comments like, "Oh she can sing but where is her guitar?" Or how about this one, " She must not of been able to make it in country music so she's trying out bluegrass and they got her some ringers."    Is it a jealousy thing?... Im not sure but bluegrass music seems to be the only music that people complain about this issue.

Like I said it is mainly females, with bands like Alecia Nugent, Donna Hughes, Amber Collins and so on. I also play in a band and we have 2 girls that sing with us(one is my sister and the other is my wife). My sister plays guitar but not on stage and my wife does not play anything and we constantly get compliments about their singing and that they should sing more, but every now and then you will hear 

" Well they are good but why aren't they playing something?"

I tell them all the time i will give them half of mando and guitar skills for half of their singing. Anyways enough rambling, lets hear your thoughts...

Rob
http://www.westvon.com/NESB

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## jaycat

Bluegrass is an insular form. There is no place for a Jimi Hendrix, an Ornette Coleman, a Tom Waits, or a Thelonious Monk. 

Not a criticism, just an observation. Just don't expect wholesale breaks from tradition.

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## Matt DeBlass

Must be a Bluegrass thing. On the other hand, in smaller acoustic rock and folk bands playing the bar scene the other_musicians_ might be inclined to complain if everyone else is doing double-duty on vocals and an instrument while a singer gets a cut of the night's pay while not "pulling their weight" with an instrument in their hands.

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## mandolirius

> This isn't exactly a mandolin topic, but I know I will get plenty of feedback here on the cafe..
> 
> Why is bluegrass music the only type of music where people want to complain if the lead singer or harmony singer dont play an instrument.?  It is mainly females in this genre that dont play and sing but what is the big deal if they dont, they play an instrument and that instrument is their voice,
> 
> I have heard comments like, "Oh she can sing but where is her guitar?" Or how about this one, " She must not of been able to make it in country music so she's trying out bluegrass and they got her some ringers."    Is it a jealousy thing?... Im not sure but bluegrass music seems to be the only music that people complain about this issue.
> 
> Like I said it is mainly females, with bands like Alecia Nugent, Donna Hughes, Amber Collins and so on. I also play in a band and we have 2 girls that sing with us(one is my sister and the other is my wife). My sister plays guitar but not on stage and my wife does not play anything and we constantly get compliments about their singing and that they should sing more, but every now and then you will hear 
> 
> " Well they are good but why aren't they playing something?"
> ...


This is just a guess, based on my impression that non-playing singers really came to prominence during the 50's. That was a decade that saw a lot of animosity between country music and bluegrass. In fact, that was the decade that really saw the separation of bluegrass and country. Prior to 1950, country music was a broad tent with a lot of diversity.

I know when rock & roll came along, via Elvis and others, country music took a big hit in popularity which affected record sales. In order to compete, country went electric, went for the flashy outfits and bands were built around singers who may or may not have held a guitar on stage. Country music wanted a more modern image and that didn't include bluegrass, which seemed too "hayseed" or "backwoodsy". I have often heard the quote, although I can't remember who said it, that you couldn't give a fiddle away in Nashville in 1959.

So, to your question, I think that in non-playing singers, some bluegrass folks saw the Nashville system developing and they didn't like it. They saw some greats but also some rather marginal talents get promoted as "stars" and decided that non-playing singers weren't no part of nothin'. Bluegrass went through some pretty lean times around then, when a lot of bands couldn't survive. Those that did often had to cut back to two or three members, supplented with local add-ons, as they travelled around. A non-playing singer would be seen as an extravagence.

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## mandolirius

> Bluegrass is an insular form. There is no place for a Jimi Hendrix, an Ornette Coleman, a Tom Waits, or a Thelonious Monk. 
> 
> Not a criticism, just an observation. Just don't expect wholesale breaks from tradition.


Gotta disagree. I think we've seen lots of breaks from tradition already, with much more to come. The question is whether it's called bluegrass or not. I don't think a new name is needed. I feel traditional bluegrass covers the original sound nicely. But there are tons of folks doing bluegrass-related music, some of it quite innovative. Don't forget how young bluegrass is, as a musical form.

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## thejamdolinplayer

Monroe was an innovator combining many music forms to create bluegrass, but yet all the traditionalist expect everything to still sound like Monroe or Scruggs. We have to give on, i will leave you with my quote.

"Respect your roots but dont stay stuck in the rut"....

Lets get back to topic though, this is about the question at hand not what is bluegrass.....

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DavidKOS

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## mrmando

Have 'em learn to play harmonica, tambourine, kazoo, accordion, shaker, guiro, rainstick, Vibra-Slap, AK-47 ...

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## barry k

Monroe had a female in his band too,  she played accordian .  I have been around bluegrass all my life and do not like the direction it is moving in. Now we have singers without instruments, keyboards and drums (yea yea, I know Scruggs use em too) It will be branded some other name soon, so we will just have to embraced it I guess. Heres another idea , at a concert or bluegrass festival, if we hear something we dont like, we can always stand up and walk out and NOT buy their  CD's , ive done it.

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## EdSherry

Martin -- AK-47, OK.  But kazoo?  The horror!!

Rob -- I suspect it's a "pulling your weight" thing.  A "trad" BG band has five or six instruments (gtr/bass/b*njo/mando/fiddle/Dobro), and "tradition" had it that everybody in the band played something to fill out the sound.  

Learning to play basic rhythm guitar or bass is not difficult (which is not to downplay the importance of having a GOOD bassist/rhythm guitarist!), and the perception I often run across is that a "serious" musician should learn to play an instrument if they want to perform in a band setting.

With so many good lead singers out there who can play passable rhythm guitar or bass, there traditionally has been little need to have a "can't play, just sings" member, especially in professional bands.  And there's little enough money in the music as it is, so someone who can pull "double duty" (vocals/instrument) is more valuable than someone who can't when it comes time to divvying up the pie.  

With family bands it's a different story, but now you're venturing into "is so-and-so in the band because of their talent, or because of their family connections with other band members?" territory.  

And of course there's always the antipathy toward the "chick singer." 

Lots of SF Bay Area bands have women in lead vocal roles (Laurie Lewis, Kathy Kallick, the Good Old Persons, Sidesaddle, the All Girl Boys, etc.) and many of them are crackerjack instrumentalists.  

That said, I've been in a couple of bands with non-instrumentalist lead singers, and I personally would rather have a great lead singer who doesn't play an instrument than a lesser-quality singer who does play any day.

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## journeybear

Could it be that the music is so darn easy to play that anyone who can't play an instrument is obviously not talented enough to be in the band?  :Disbelief:  Or that the pay for play is so low that those dollars would be stretched too far if the singer didn't play an instrument?  :Confused:  Or that since so many bands have three- or four-part harmonies, someone just singing would be seen as not pulling his or her own weight?  :Wink:  Or that someone who could sing so well that he or she didn't need to play an instrument would soon decide to pursue a solo career?  :Crying: 

At any rate, whatever the reason, keep in mind that all the items Martin mentioned are generally considered to be not fittin' and proper for use in a bluegrass band.  :Whistling:

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## thejamdolinplayer

> That said, I've been in a couple of bands with non-instrumentalist lead singers, and I personally would rather have a great lead singer who doesn't play an instrument than a lesser-quality singer who does play any day.



Agreed.....

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## JonZ

I think I saw the Laurel Canyon Ramblers, opening for Ralph Stanley, with a singer who did not play an instrument. The reason being an accident that cut off two fingers of his left hand with a power saw. So he couldn't play rhythm guitar any more.

I always wondered if he eventually took up the Dobro.

That was when Ralph had a second banjo player playing pretty much note for note behind him. So much for tradition.

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## allenhopkins

Ralph S is largely a non-playing singer at this point; does a couple clawhammer banjo numbers, but carries a banjoist for the rest of the songs.  Guess he's earned the right to "sit out" when he chooses.

So many country -- not just bluegrass -- singers would walk onstage with a guitar, which they'd have hanging un-picked from their shoulders during most of their set.  And who can forget Elvis Presley's intricate guitar accompaniments?  I believe the SPBGMA rules allow one "non-instrumentalist" singer per band in their contest.

Older country groups usually had all members at least _holding_ an instrument; A P Carter was an exception, though I understand that he made some stabs at Hawaiian guitar from time to time.  Just was looking at a picture of Patsy Montana & the Prairie Ramblers, and Patsy's holding a fiddle!  Anyone ever hear her play fiddle?

Last time I saw Bill Monroe he had a "girl singer" working with him, and the Blue Grass Boys backed her up on two or three songs as part of the set.  Tater Tate didn't look happy about it, either.  She didn't play an instrument.  Speculation in the audience was that she was Bill's current girlfriend.

A guitar or other instrument seems to have been the standard "stage accessory" of quite a few country singers of both genders, though some hardly made a pretense of playing it.  I think it's a "roots" thing, harkening back to the singing guitarists like Jimmie Rodgers, Gene Autry, _et. al._  You know, sorta like the cowboy hat and the fringed shirt, worn by people from Tennessee and Georgia, where the cowboys were few and far between.  Remember Bill Monroe's old Blue Grass Boys uniform, with the riding pants?

One interesting theory above is that bluegrass is basically "small combo" music, with a six-piece band considered "big," so that in order to get all the instruments into the music, everyone's got to play something.  Weren't western swing bands similar, in that most of their singers at least held a fiddle or some such?

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## barney 59

I've often thought that a great many bands would benefit from getting a really great singer. Voice is an instrument or at least can be,think Ella Fitzgerald-- and it takes a great deal of study and work to be really great. There are a lot of bands whose instrumental work is astonishing but the singing is just so so and for a group of obviously accomplished musicians to not recognize their failings in the vocal department is bewildering to me . It's wonderful if you have a John Duffy in your band who can play AND sing or you can be the Punch Brothers who surely can play.....

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## Mike Bunting

> Remember Bill Monroe's old Blue Grass Boys uniform, with the riding pants?


I don't believe that had much to do with the west. Kentucky is a famous horse breeding area, ever hear of the Kentucky Derby?

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## MoBob

I saw Jim and Jesse in the 1970s, had a female singer who did not play an instrument.

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## SincereCorgi

> Don't forget how young bluegrass is, as a musical form.


Relatively speaking, it's lasted a pretty long time (depending on your definition of bluegrass). Most genres turn into eccentric little footnotes after ten or twenty years- it's lasted longer than ragtime, longer than disco, longer than the big band era, etc etc.

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## Ivan Kelsall

We need to remember that the human voice is the most versatile & beautiful 'instrument' of all (unless you've heard me of course,then the argument goes down the pan !).
   One of my current favourite bands Is _"Carrie Hassler & Hard Rain"._ CH doesn't play,she's purely a singer,but Oh boy !,what a singer. It doesn't bother me at all,if the lead singer doesn't play an instrument,for me it's the voice that counts every time,& as a rider to this thread,i prefer a female voice to most male voices,with a few exceptions of course,
                                                                                                                               Ivan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QzP0vE-w0U

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## mandolirius

> Relatively speaking, it's lasted a pretty long time (depending on your definition of bluegrass). Most genres turn into eccentric little footnotes after ten or twenty years- it's lasted longer than ragtime, longer than disco, longer than the big band era, etc etc.


That's certainly one way to look at it. However if you took ragtime and big band as sub-genres of jazz, then the larger form is still around. Same with disco. It was a pop-culture phenomena, which means it was doomed to have a limited shelf life. But if you see it as just a part of what we call R & B or Soul then, once again, the larger musical form still exists.

Bluegrass has to change if it's going to stay relevant. It nearly died once already, due to....inbreeding, I guess is the word. There weren't many new songs being written and those that were followed a pretty set formula. There were very few women involved in the music. This was the late 50's/early 60's. The Country Gentleman did a lot for bluegrass by introducing new repetoire and showing that bluegrass could, like jazz, adopt songs from other styles and make them bluegrass.

After that you had rock infuences through Newgrass Revival and others and then a large influx of women, still mainly as singers but some instrumentalists as well. All of these developments have contributed to the longevity of bluegrass and there will be more of them as time goes on.

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## Spencer

Could be this will change with younger bands.  I can think of two who do very well with lead singers who don't play instruments: Joy Kills Sorrow from the US, and Downtown Ramblers from Sweden.  Haven't heard anybody complain about them, and they play some excellent music.

Spencer

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## Rick Cadger

People do what they do. We all have limitations. 

If a band finds a singer that they think fits with the sound they want but that singer is not able to play another instrument then the band decides if the contribution of the singer is equal to that of any other member, or at least substantial enough that they'd rather not lose that singer. Obviously if you can find a great singer who can also play one of the instruments you need then that's a great bargain. Otherwise, you work with what you have.

Quite often the non-playing singer is the go-getter who was motivated enough to put the band together in the first place. In such cases, that drive surely counts for something.

Some singers can play instruments, but can't multi-task to the point of singing and playing at the same time. I can sing ok and I can play ok, but if I do both at the same time then my limitations begin to show.

BB King says that he can't sing and play at the same time. His band didn't sack him yet.

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## Bertram Henze

I think it depends on what exactly is being sung. 

BG singing often follows that blues pattern of a high-pitched voice moving across just two or three notes, conveying that message "look my life is so bad, my voice gone south, can't even sing". Many people (and I, for that matter) get the impression that this can't take much of your brainpower so you might perfectly well do something else beside it, such as playing an instrument (women can yell at their husband and throw a frying pan at him at the same time, can't they?)

If there is, OTOH, a ballad with a complicated melody full of emotions and subtle nuances, everybody will acknowledge that as a full-time job.

Now you can claim that I am not into BG and just ignorant of what is going on in a song, but so are audiences.

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## Stephen Cagle

I must admit that it felt a little funny in the beginning. I toured with Ray Deaton and his now wife Anita Fisher a few years ago (_The Anita Fisher Band_). Anita stood center in between Ray and I and on the other side of her was Jimmy and Brian. After 1 show the thought of it being weird or different went right out the window. Playing in a setting like that, YES the voice is an instrument. Don't forget the Lewis Family. I'm sure a few people have heard of them and they have done just fine. 

Stephen Cagle :Coffee:

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## AlanN

I saw Ronnie Bowman and the Committee some time ago, with Ronnie's wife on stage, vocals only. Good voice, good band dynamic. I didn't think anything of her not having an instrument. Plus, all the bases were covered already - guitar (2 - Ronnie, Wyatt Rice), mando, fiddle, banjo, bass.

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## mandograss

[QUOTE=EdSherry;891277]Martin -- AK-47, OK.  But kazoo?  The horror!!QUOTE]

What you talkin' bout Willis?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTIbQCxNhUw

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## JeffD

Its allowed, as long as the singer is not a musician. Per SPBGMA rule 3:

3. The only instruments that will be permitted are as
follows: Five-string Banjo, Flat-top Guitar, Mandolin,
Fiddle, Dobro, and Bass Fiddle. Below are the combinations
and the ONLY combinations that will be recognized
by the SPBGMA judging officials:

4 MEMBER MANDATORY REQUIREMENT
A-Five-string banjo
B-Flat-top guitar
C-Mandolin
D-Bass fiddle

5 MEMBERS
The 4 Member Mandatory Requirement, Plus ONE
of the following:
A-Fiddle
B-Guitar
C-Mandolin
D-Dobro
E-Non-musician vocalist

6 MEMBERS
The 4 Member Mandatory Requirement, Plus ONE
of the following combinations:
A-Two fiddles
B-One fiddle and one guitar
C-One fiddle and one dobro
D-One fiddle and one mandolin
E-One guitar and one dobro
F-One guitar and one mandolin
G-One dobro and one mandolin
UP TO TWO (2) NON-MUSICIAN VOCALIST MAY BE
ADDED TO MAKE UP THE 6 MEMBER MAXIMUM

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## Steve Ostrander

I consider voice to be an instrument, and vocalists are musicians. If some some artists choose to concentrate on what they do best, who am I to judge?  Many jazz singers don't play an instrument, but we're not talking about jazz here.

I guess it's just another BG rule that you gotta play an instrument.  I wonder if people would criticize Allison Krauss if she didn't play fiddle: "She's OK, but she don't play an instrument..."

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## journeybear

> What you talkin' bout Willis?


What YOU talkin' bout? There may be a guitar, banjo, mandolin, and bass (even if it is a gas tank bass), but that ain't bluegrass. Which is not to say they don't play bluegrass - seems that's what they do, most of the time - but this is a jug band style number, which is of course a perfectly acceptable use for kazoo. Martin's point is well taken and intended more for humorous than musicological purposes. But go ahead, knock yourself out looking for kazoo in bluegrass. We're here for you, waiting with bated breath.  :Smile: 

Yeah, it was a dark day when Alison Krauss began singing more than fiddling. For years now she just holds it most of the time while singing. But hey - with a voice like hers I am not going to complain much.

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## Matt DeBlass

What if you want to sing in a Bluegrass band and play harmonica? :ducks:

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## journeybear

Ummm ... just sing.  :Grin: 

Isn't there a thread about that rattling around here somewhere?  :Confused: 

Yep.

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## Rex Hart

In our band, we have our GREAT female vocalist chop her mandolin while the mando player is doing fills or taking a break. This allows the banjo player to keep rolling in the background instead of going to a syncopated chop which helps to make the music sound fuller.

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## allenhopkins

> ...ever hear of the Kentucky Derby?


Fooled me; I thought it was a *hat.*

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## mandograss

> What YOU talkin' bout? There may be a guitar, banjo, mandolin, and bass (even if it is a gas tank bass), but that ain't bluegrass. Which is not to say they don't play bluegrass - seems that's what they do, most of the time - but this is a jug band style number, which is of course a perfectly acceptable use for kazoo. Martin's point is well taken and intended more for humorous than musicological purposes. But go ahead, knock yourself out looking for kazoo in bluegrass. We're here for you, waiting with bated breath. 
> 
> Yeah, it was a dark day when Alison Krauss began singing more than fiddling. For years now she just holds it most of the time while singing. But hey - with a voice like hers I am not going to complain much.


Knock yourself out knocking the Kazoo. Hey, these guys played this very same song at Telluride Bluegrass, Winflied stages for years, Hardly, Strickly Bluegrass Fest, and many many others. Never once were they booed, rushed, ran, shoved off stage. Call it what you want, but I bet you ain't played, or even been to most of these shows. How is you are the authoritive figure for Bluegrass music? Kind of funny all these rules all the sudden pop up like this is Classical music we are playing. I do it for fun myself, but find this kind of thing a huge turn off.

Also, I understand I am not Martin and this is the internet, but if you did not see the intention in my post, well you know the rest of the story.

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## mandograss

> What if you want to sing in a Bluegrass band and play harmonica? :ducks:


I see em' each month at our monthly local jams. Seems to fit right in and everyone seems to enjoy it. They guy is pretty good on the thing that's for sure.

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## GDAE

That's completely bizarre to me that a vocalist is called a "non-musician."   How is someone who sings well a non-musician?  They make music with their instrument--their voice.  They could, and should, say "non-instrumentalist" or something similar.

As for double duty....if your bassist only plays bass, or your banjo player only plays banjo, and doesn't sing...are they not pulling their weight either?

And no, I  don't sing at all.

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## stratman62

> Fooled me; I thought it was a *hat.*


Our harmonica player wears one while his wife holds nothing and sings very well.

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## catmandu2

> Knock yourself out knocking the Kazoo. Hey, these guys played this very same song at Telluride Bluegrass, Winflied stages for years, Hardly, Strickly Bluegrass Fest, and many many others. Never once were they booded, rushed, ran, shoved off stage. Call it what you want, but I bet you ain't played, or even been to most of these shows. How is you are the authoritive figure for Bluegrass music? .


On every internet music forum which I've participated, such sentiment exists and discussion ensues--namely, the interaction of tradition with innovation.  There is always a continuum with the extremes being strict orthodoxy and strict freedom--with most assuming positions of gradations between these poles.  Especially in forms where tradition is a pervasive element (actually, all forms have this), you will always find advocacy for tradition.

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## mandograss

I hear you buddy. I prefer to have running water out of my faucet rather than getting a bucket full from the well.

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## AlanN

> That's completely bizarre to me that a vocalist is called a "non-musician."   How is someone who sings well a non-musician?  They make music with their instrument--their voice.  They could, and should, say "non-instrumentalist" or something similar.


Completely agree. How such an august organization as SPGMA can list that is nutty. Here's a definition of musican that I like:

Musicians compose, sing, or play music.

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## JeffD

> That's completely bizarre to me that a vocalist is called a "non-musician." ...    They could, and should, say "non-instrumentalist" or something similar.
> .


That has to be what they meant. But the original wording persists.

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## Bertram Henze

> That's completely bizarre to me that a vocalist is called a "non-musician."   How is someone who sings well a non-musician?


Honi soit qui maly pense - in their favor, I assume that what those authors meant are singers without an instrument, implying that the other members with an instrument are free to sing without further regulations. But yes, even if that is what they meant, their wording has a potential for improvement...

P.S. Jeff beat me to it, again  :Laughing:

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## TonyP

It's too bad that people have disparaged the OP's choice to have two singers that don't play an instrument. It could be bluegrass silliness, it could just be silliness in general. It was not mentioned whether there was a full band behind them. I could see where somebody could say something if it was just a mando and two singers it would sound a little empty. But if there's a full band, it seems like nit pickin' and I would ignore it. But I know it's impossible to ignore negative stuff said about a family member. 

That said, just from a sheer logistical standpoint I prefer a band that is as small as possible, which means everybody sings and plays. We play too small of places, for little or no pay. So it's pretty much mandatory IMHO. It has nothing to do with "tradition". The band I've been in for 10yrs now is facing a situation where our lead singer's hands have gotten so bad he's unable to play anymore. Even more unfortunately, he has another health problem that is effecting his voice. So this is just about the worst situation to be in for me, as he wants to continue on, but I'm not sure it's possible.

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## journeybear

> Knock yourself out knocking the Kazoo. Hey, these guys played this very same song at Telluride Bluegrass, Winflied stages for years, Hardly, Strickly Bluegrass Fest, and many many others. Never once were they booed, rushed, ran, shoved off stage. Call it what you want, but I bet you ain't played, or even been to most of these shows. How is you are the authoritive figure for Bluegrass music? Kind of funny all these rules all the sudden pop up like this is Classical music we are playing. I do it for fun myself, but find this kind of thing a huge turn off.
> 
> Also, I understand I am not Martin and this is the internet, but if you did not see the intention in my post, well you know the rest of the story.


Oh, please! Lighten up! I am far from orthodox in any way shape or form, and am far more flexible on the definition of bluegrass than - well, OK, I haven't taken a survey nor care to, so I'll just say, most. But I play rock mandolin with effects and wah-wah, so don't even insinuate that I'm close-minded. (See my contributions to the Whiskey Befrore Breakfast Challenge, for example.) The point I was trying to make is that post #7 from _Martin_ (aka mrmando), in which he suggested giving a singer something to play as well included a list of non-traditional bluegrass instruments, including kazoo, which I took to be rather droll, in a dry subtle way. If you want to seize on this mention of a kazoo and run with it - fine. But don't act like it's some big deal. Funny how the example you posted of a mostly if not strictly bluegrass band featuring a kazoo _on one song_ was playing something a lot closer to jug band music than bluegrass. And I have played in a couple of jug bands, so I know a little something about kazoos. I have never heard of this band, they sounded pretty good in that clip and a few others I checked out, but if the subject is bluegrass, use a bluegrass example of kazoo use. I'm not saying it doesn't exist just that it would be rather unusual. Good luck finding one. Really. Knock yourself out - I hope you find one - but I am not interested in spending a whole lot of _my_ time looking for this.

And also, please read more carefully. I was not "knocking the kazoo," I said "knock yourself out looking for kazoo in bluegrass." That is, and I think it's pretty safe to say this, even though I am not an "authoritive figure for Bluegrass music" nor claimed to be, that it is rare for kazoo to be played in a bluegrass context. I'm not saying it can't be, nor shouldn't be, just that it hasn't been. Much.

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## journeybear

> I assume that what those authors meant are singers without an instrument, implying that the other members with an instrument are free to sing without further regulations.


It seems they wanted as brief a term as possible. And "non-picker" was just a little too ... down-home or something.  :Wink:

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## mandograss

Wow, did you get teased with a Kazoo as a kid or something? I never once said SLR was 100% tradiltional Bluegrass. I did not put that label on them. You put the jug band label on one of their songs. Fine. If you were to ask the founder of SLR, he would have told you they are NOT a bluegrass band. He called it rockgrass before he passed away from a bout with throat cancer, and at such a young age. So what years did your jug band play Winfield, Hardly Strickly, Telluride? BTW, these ARE bluegrass festivals and they were accepted with open arms and invited back year after year. I wouldn't be interestred in spending a lot of time on this myself if I were you. You would be surpirsed at who blew on that very same Kazoo out at the campfire jams. I will leave it at that.

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## mandograss

Well, that didn't take long and nowhere near knocked myslef out. 

http://www.kazoobie.com/kazoograss/

I'm sure there are tons of things you have not seen or heard about buddy. It's a pretty big world out there.

"This year Rick performs "unplugged" in the Saturday and Sunday shows, joined onstage by the Daly Planet "Lowcountry Boil Bluegrass Band" combining kazoos and traditional instruments to create KazooGrass!"

Ever hear of Merlfest? It's not rock or anything, but it gets the job done.

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## journeybear

You used that as an example of kazoo use in bluegrass. What did you expect me to think? Maybe I was reading too much into your post, but that sure seemed what you were after, in the context of this thread. That song's chord structure was closer to jug band than bluegrass.



And this other - a kid's stage dealie hosted by the Official National Spokesperson For The Original American Kazoo Company? Come on!  :Laughing: 

If you can find a real bluegrass use of kazoo, let's see it.

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## catmandu2

Of course, this all really isn't a snit about _just_ kazoos and bluegrass (I think), but it does seem funny anyway.






> ...I know a little something about kazoos.

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## mandograss

> You used that as an example of kazoo use in bluegrass. What did you expect me to think? Maybe I was reading too much into your post, but that sure seemed what you were after, in the context of this thread.
> 
> And this other - a kid's stage dealie hosted by the Official National Spokesperson For
> The Original American Kazoo Company? Come on! 
> 
> If you can find a real bluegrass use of kazoo, let's see it.


I did  find one. That is exacly what you said to do, find one. I did and here it is.

"This year Rick performs "unplugged" in the Saturday and Sunday shows, joined onstage by the Daly Planet "Lowcountry Boil Bluegrass Band" combining kazoos and traditional instruments to create KazooGrass!"

See, these guys are a BAND, and they are having this guy who plays the Kazoo sit in for this show. It's not hard to understand. I know it's hard to admit you are wrong, but not to understand.

----------


## mandograss

> Of course, this really isn't a snit about _just_ kazoos and bluegrass, but it does seem funny anyway.


I know, and it is not only funny but kind of fun. I know I'm enjoying the response.

----------


## journeybear

OK - kazoograss! Too much!  :Laughing:  Just don't say it's bluegrass. The guy doing it doesn't.  :Laughing: 

Maybe I should have said "let's _hear_ it." Still haven't got that. I would love to hear kazoo playing bluegrass.

Anyone can sit in with a bluegrass band and play anything, but that doesn't make it a bluegrass instrument.

----------


## mandograss

> and this other - a kid's stage dealie hosted by the official national spokesperson for the original american kazoo company? Come on!


ok

----------


## mandograss

Can I see your approved list of Rock bands please? Just curious.

I'm headin' to Hickory Hollow for some grub, so I'll be gone for a bit. They have Bluegrass bands play there each Friday night. Dave Peters played there many a times and I even have one of the sessions on CD. I will ask when I go if therse guys are real Bluegrass and let you know what they say. I'm going for my weekly traditionalist luncheon. lol

----------


## journeybear

Nope. Just take my word for it - kazoo use is accepted, though minimal. But I like KT Tunstall, who uses kazoo occasionally, in a non-bluegrass, non-jug-band way.




> I know it's hard to admit you are wrong, but not to understand.


Don't see you rushing to admit you were wrong, either.  :Wink: 

Here's a little something more about kazoos. FWIW.

----------


## jaycat

> I know a little something about kazoos.


How about ocarinas? Any ocarina scholars out there?

----------


## journeybear

Don't get me started on ocarina! Love 'em! That was my first instrument - a plastic one called the Tonette. I could wail on it. That led to some recorder leassons, but that  was a bit too strict and confining. Somehow I think I accidentally developed an appreciation for non-mainstream instruments this way, which led to mandolin ...

There is a wonderful scene in Bertolucci's sprawling "1900," a summer picnic in a shady grove of trees by a river, and a few people start playing ocarinas, like a little combo. Wonderful scene, wonderful music.

Hasn't popped up in my quick searching, but this is an idea of what you can do when a few people play these little dandies together:




In a (somewhat) similar vein, a rock classic done on kazoos:




I am so kicking myself now because I just realized I missed National Kazoo Day this year!  :Crying:

----------


## catmandu2

At bluegrass band practice on Tuesday, one of the players (the mandiolin player, actually) played hands.  Briefly.

----------


## jaycat

> Don't get me started on ocarina!


Serves me right for asking.

----------


## Pete Summers

> Martin -- AK-47, OK.  But kazoo?  The horror!!


Horror? Oh yeah? Check this for some kazooing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CTU8mDmN34
 :Wink:

----------


## journeybear

jaycat - Yep!  :Laughing:  Don't get me started on getting started!  :Laughing: 

Actually, that right there is all I have on the subject. I think. Let's hope so!  :Laughing:  

But that scene from "1900" is really magical. The movie is four hours long though ...

----------


## mandograss

> Horror? Oh yeah? Check this for some kazooing:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CTU8mDmN34


 Yeah, but that's not traditional music. Oh wait, yes it is, but how, it can't be. Now I'm confused. Which is it JB? Is this the real deal or just a novelty act? 

Hint: Ever hear of a Grammy award?

----------


## mandograss

> Nope. Just take my word for it - kazoo use is accepted, though minimal. But I like KT Tunstall, who uses kazoo occasionally, in a non-bluegrass, non-jug-band way.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't see you rushing to admit you were wrong, either. 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something more about kazoos. FWIW.



No problem not sending that list. Anyone who thinks Metallica is a Classic Rock band is just way too far gone for me to try and reason with. They are a Heavy Metal band dude. Just ask any of the 100 million plus people who have purchased any of their albums and I'm sure they will also set you straight. I will admit I'm worng when I am wrong. You still have not admitted anything yet, just shown your true colors is all I have noticed.

----------


## bobby bill

Back to the singers . . . I think there exists in places a prejudice that singers are not as talented as instrument players.  The rational part of my brain does not think this is true, but the irrational part has been guilty of the same, at times.  I think the prejudice derives from the fact that everyone, at one time or another, has sung.  Not everyone has picked up a mandolin or guitar.  There is a certain magic and mystery to seeing/hearing someone play an instrument that one hasn't played.  That magic does not exist so much with respect to singers.

There is no doubt that it takes as much skill to sing really really well (see Ella Fitzgerald, mentioned above) as it does to play mandolin really really well.  But lots and lots of people sing along with their favorite songs on the radio or at home and I think there is a notion that, so long as they didn't have to play something too, THEY could be doing that too.  And then once they decide that it is something THEY could do, they lose all respect for it.

Now back to kazoos . . . They same phenomenon probably exists for kazoos.  Everyone has played one at least once.  You don't need to know how to read music or tab.  You just play the damn thing.  Now there probably exist virtuoso kazoo players (haven't checked the videos above yet) but I suspect that if someone was on stage and the only thing he did was played a kazoo, there might be less respect for his musical abilities than just about any other player.

----------


## mandograss

nearly 200 poeple viewing this thread. We may make MC history with the Kazoo thread. 

I do have an appology to make. OP, sorry for taking this off track. There ya go JB.

I have been here for around 6 years and never posted as much as today. Maybe a Kazoo Cafe is in order?

----------


## mandograss

> Back to the singers . . . I think there exists in places a prejudice that singers are not as talented as instrument players.  The rational part of my brain does not think this is true, but the irrational part has been guilty of the same, at times.  I think the prejudice derives from the fact that everyone, at one time or another, has sung.  Not everyone has picked up a mandolin or guitar.  There is a certain magic and mystery to seeing/hearing someone play an instrument that one hasn't played.  That magic does not exist so much with respect to singers.
> 
> There is no doubt that it takes as much skill to sing really really well (see Ella Fitzgerald, mentioned above) as it does to play mandolin really really well.  But lots and lots of people sing along with their favorite songs on the radio or at home and I think there is a notion that, so long as they didn't have to play something too, THEY could be doing that too.  And then once they decide that it is something THEY could do, they lose all respect for it.
> 
> Now back to kazoos . . . They same phenomenon probably exists for kazoos.  Everyone has played one at least once.  You don't need to know how to read music or tab.  You just play the damn thing.  Now there probably exist virtuoso kazoo players (haven't checked the videos above yet) but I suspect that if someone was on stage and the only thing he did was played a kazoo, there might be less respect for his musical abilities than just about any other player.


Now Bobby, you are in Austin. I work in Austin a few times a month. You can't tell me those hippies standing around all over the place can't whip out some magic on the ol' Kazoo. I would bet 3rd Thursdays you could see a few up and down Congress if you looked hard enough.

----------


## journeybear

> No problem not sending that list. Anyone who thinks Metallica is a Classic Rock band is just way too far gone for me to try and reason with. They are a Heavy Metal band dude. Just ask any of the 100 million plus people who have purchased any of their albums and I'm sure they will also set you straight. I will admit I'm worng when I am wrong. You still have not admitted anything yet, just shown your true colors is all I have noticed.


Dude - 

Would you _please_ pay attention to what is written? I said the song is a rock classic, not a song by a Classic Rock Band. 

I _will_ admit I am wrong when I _am_ wrong, and do so without any provocation from people saying I'm wrong. So far the only thing I have done wrong is assume you were using that clip of Split Lip Rayfield as an example of kazoo use in bluegrass, though  you later said they are not a 100% bluegrass band, so I don't know if it matters what I thought there. I still think that was a reasonable assumption to make in the context of this thread. Oh, and I guess I was wrong to assume you had sufficient famiarity with the English language to carry on a decent conversation.

So far you have misread my posts, misinterpreted them, put words in my mouth, insulted me, insulted my tastes, said I said things I didn't, made snide remarks to third parties, mocked my contributions to the conversation, made unsubstantiated insinuations ...

Are _you_ going to admit you were wrong? Hell - how is any of that _right?_

----------


## mandograss

> Dude - 
> 
> Would you _please_ pay attention to what is written? I said the song is a rock classic, not a song by a Classic Rock Band. 
> 
> I will admit I am wrong when I am wrong. So far the only thing I have done wrong is assume you were using that clip of Split Lip Rayfield as an example of kazoo use in bluegrass, though  you later said they are not a bluegrass band, so I don't know if it matters what I thought there. Oh, and I guess I was wrong to assume you had sufficient famiarity with the English language to carry on a decent conversation.
> 
> So far you have misread my posts, misinterpreted them, put words in my mouth, insulted me, insulted my tastes, said I said things I didn't, made snide remarks to third parties, mocked my contributions to the conversation ...
> 
> Wrong? Hell - how is any of that _right?_


Rock classic, classic rock, or whatever you want to call it. Metallica wrote heavy metal songs, not "classic rock" songs. Is that easier for you to understand? 

Look, you want to become an internet message board English teacher, by all means go for it. Good luck with that. Just don't call it Spanish or some other junk name you decide to put on it. I bet when you were young and worked at the local gas station, you were not an attendant, but a petroleum dispensing engineer right? I get it now. You are right and I am wrong. Oh, and I never said SLR was or was not a bluegrass band. I had the sack to ask them in person and I posted their response. I did not place any moniker on them. Moniker is like a label if you were wondering professor.

----------


## journeybear

> Yeah, but that's not traditional music. Oh wait, yes it is, but how, it can't be. Now I'm confused. Which is it JB? Is this the real deal or just a novelty act? 
> 
> Hint: Ever hear of a Grammy award?


They are the real deal, an astoundingly talented trio of accomplished musicians. Definitely tradition-minded, if not strictly traditional, though sometimes they seem to hae been transported here from the 1930s.

----------


## mandograss

> They are the real deal, an astoundingly talented trio of accomplished musicians.


wrong agian, they are a 5 piece band. When will you admit it?

See for yourself with your own connection if you want.

I was wrong, 4 piece now. I'm sorry JB about that. See, I can admit it when it is true. However, if you read through the site you will see Justin has an open invite anytime he wants, so it could actualy be a 5 piece at any time.

http://www.carolinachocolatedrops.com/

----------


## journeybear

What is wrong with you? I was responding to your comment in response to Pete Summers post about the Carolina Chocolate Drops - a trio.

Still waiting for you to admit you were wrong, and continue to be wrong, in persisting with the flaming nature of your posts.

I think it is fair to say that Metallica is a rock band, as different from a folk or bluegrass or jazz band, and "Enter Sandman" is a classic. Hence, a rock classic.

And I will say again, as I did sooooo long ago - lighten up!

----------


## mandograss

> What is wrong with you? I was responding to your comment in response to Pete Summers post about the Carolina Chocolate Drops - a trio.
> 
> Still waiting for you to admit you were wrong, and continue to be wrong, in persisting with the flaming nature of your posts.
> 
> 
> I think it is fair to say that Metallica is a rock band, as different from a folk or bluegrass or jazz band, and ?Enter Sandman is a classic.


Nothing, what's wrong with you?

I guess you can't open a link. Justin left the CCD last week dude. They have 2 other members now.

Are you going to continue to make yourself look like a fool on the Cafe'? I don't have to do anything apparently.

OK, you win. Metallica is a Classic Heavy Bluegrass band I guess. Hey, it's what I think so it's got to be right.

I'm waitng with "baited breath" as you mentioned in your fist SA repsonse. What did you expect in response?

----------


## mandroid

Bono can play the guitar , but doesn't in U2's  performances , they seem to have done well.

----------


## journeybear

I can open a link. All I see there is pictures of three of them, just as there have been every time I have seen them, live or on the tube.

Oh, wait - there is a news item,_ from this past Monday_ - OK, I see what you mean. News to me. So they are now five, soon to be four, after having been three for so long, and their body of work amassed over the tears, all the performances and recordings and vid clips of them as a trio that gave everybody the impression they were a trio, that no longer matters, I guess. OK. So they are no longer a trio, though they were in that clip, presented as part of a conversation, and possibly also an attempt to move this conversation along from this flaming you persist in. Fine. I was wrong. Pretty reasonable assumption to make, though, don't you think? 

Now, repeat after me: "I was wrong to insult journeybear for saying Metallica was a classic rock band, when clearly he did not, as I misread what he said, and he is entitled to consider their music rock, rather than a category of rock." Could you at least admit you were wrong there?

And then let's work on some of the other stuff. F'rinstance, misreading: I said "bated breath," not "baited breath." There is a difference. look it up.

Or not. Never mind. This nonsense is cutting into my nap time, and i have an early gig tonight. Take a chill pill, or two. Bye!

PS: BTW, people who say others look like a fool are generally the ones who _are_ the fool. I say generally, because this right here is an exception.

----------


## mrmando

> At bluegrass band practice on Tuesday, one of the players (the mandiolin player, actually) played hands.  Briefly.


Didn't one of the members of the McLain Family Band do this? Does that mean they weren't bluegrass? Come to think of it, one or other of the McLain girls (or both) usually just performed as a vocalist, didn't she? 

Everybody in my 7-person bluegrass band plays an instrument, but those instruments include electric bass, resophonic tenor guitar (sometimes even two of those at once!), tambourine, and cardboard box with brushes ... and we cover Blind Willie Johnson and Ritchie Valens ... the bluegrass police are filing a warrant, I hear.

And if I had known how much trouble the mention of a kazoo would stir up, I'd have stuck with the nose flute. 

I spent a summer touring the U.S. and Europe with an orchestra; we had about 35 instrumentalists and eight vocalists. We stayed with host families. Favorite standard dumb question from host families, which I heard more than once: "Do you sing or are you a musician?" 

One of our violinists, Jane from Florida, had fashion-model looks, a sweet personality, and, well ... she was staying with a host family in Germany that had a dog; her host gave the dog a command, which it promptly obeyed; and Jane blurted out: "I'm amazed at how well your dog understands German!"

----------


## mandograss

> They are the real deal, an astoundingly talented trio of accomplished musicians. Definitely tradition-minded, if not strictly traditional, though sometimes they seem to hae been transported here from the 1930s.


I'm going to have to correct you just one more time JB. Just watch the vidieo please. Listen to the vidoe of "Short Dress Gal" and listen to Dom's statements about traditional banjo playing. He says it all himself, I don't need to keep telling you. You can hear from one of the horses mouths yourself if you care to? http://www.carolinachocolatedrops.com/video

Father, forgive me for I have sinned. I have insulted JB and in no way shape or form intended for my words to cause these actions. I beg for your forgivness now and forever. Amen. 

Oh, and sorry JB but I was not trying to get you all bent out of shape about the Kazoo in Bluegrass music. I have been to enough jams/shows to know what is write and wrong in the music I enjoy playing. Sure, the Kazoo was just a novelty for SLR at the time. As was the gas tank bass. The guy actualy bought a 3/4 stand up at one time, but he quickly sold it and returned to the gas tank. Not the same. I don't care what you want to call them. Seriously, I don't. It's a free world and you can call them whatever you feel like. I just did my part and tried to make it right by giving showing you something you had never seen. I'm still waiting to hear about your Telluride shows, or Hardly Strickly shows, or your Winfield appearances or whatever you have to show us. I'm all ears buddy.

----------


## mandograss

> One of our violinists, Jane from Florida, had fashion-model looks, a sweet personality, and, well ... she was staying with a host family in Germany that had a dog; her host gave the dog a command, which it promptly obeyed; and Jane blurted out: "I'm amazed at how well your dog understands German!"



Quick guess, is she blond?

----------


## allenhopkins

Hmmm...

1.  How did we get talking about *kazoos*?  Your "non-musician singer" (and if _that's_ not a put-down, I've never seen one) isn't likely to be a kazooist, 'cause you can't sing and play the kazoo!  (Or the harmonica.)

2.  But, now that we're talking about kazoos, betcha I know a lot about them as well, as I come from Rochester, the home base of Barbara Stewart's *Kazoophony,* the world's most famous (only) symphonic/jazz/eclectic what-the-hell-is-that kazoo quartet:



3.  And finally, the recent "dialog" in this thread is getting pretty close to the site guidelines boundary.  Perhaps a truce should be called, eh?

----------


## mandograss

> Now, repeat after me: "I was wrong to insult journeybear for saying Metallica was a classic rock band, when clearly he did not, as I misread what he said, and he is entitled to consider their music rock, rather than a category of rock." Could you at least admit you were wrong there?
> 
> And then let's work on some of the other stuff. F'rinstance, misreading: I said "bated breath," not "baited breath." There is a difference. look it up.
> 
> Or not. Never mind. This nonsense is cutting into my nap time, and i have an early gig tonight. Take a chill pill, or two. Bye!
> 
> PS: BTW, people who say others look like a fool are generally the ones who _are_ the fool. I say generally, because this right here is an exception.


I'm going to have to pass on this request. See, I actualy have met Cliff Burton at the tour bus at the UCSD amphitheater many many years ago. I played in a hard rock band that covered the entiire Master of Puppets album from start to finish and we booked many gig through college. The guitarist graduated from GIT when it was still GIT. He went to school there with the likes of Paul Gilbert and such and he could play just about anything. They taught all styles of music and you had to learn them all and he did. I learned a bunch about music theory and how to play correctly from that guy back then. I will never say Mettallica is classic anything, and if Cliff was still alive today and you asked him if he thought ES was a rock classic, what do you think would happen? Answered your own question huh? I'm going to makes me some Engrish misstakess here and there so you have soemthing ot beeyatch bout. Feel better yet?

----------


## mandograss

> Hmmm...
> 
> 1.  How did we get talking about *kazoos*?  Your "non-musician singer" (and if _that's_ not a put-down, I've never seen one) isn't likely to be a kazooist, 'cause you can't sing and play the kazoo!  (Or the harmonica.)
> 
> 2.  But, now that we're talking about kazoos, betcha I know a lot about them as well, as I come from Rochester, the home base of Barbara Stewart's *Kazoophony,* the world's most famous (only) symphonic/jazz/eclectic what-the-hell-is-that kazoo quartet:
> 
> 
> 
> 3.  And finally, the recent "dialog" in this thread is getting pretty close to the site guidelines boundary.  Perhaps a truce should be called, eh?


 I tried, and asked the lord for forgivness, only to find out JB likes to edit his old post., His mind is not as fast as it use to be I assume. He said himself. He has to take a nap so he can play tonight. Bwaaaa Haaaaa

----------


## mrmando

Me no moderator, but even me can read board guidelines: 

Avoid flaming or trolling – posts intended to create discord, antagonize others or create general mayhem. Be polite and courteous at all times. We expect spirited discussions and widely varying opinions that some may even find offensive, but exercise caution. A good rule of thumb is don't say anything on the message board that you wouldn’t say to someone in person.

----------


## mandograss

> Me no moderator, but even me can read board guidelines: 
> 
> Avoid flaming or trolling – posts intended to create discord, antagonize others or create general mayhem. Be polite and courteous at all times. We expect spirited discussions and widely varying opinions that some may even find offensive, but exercise caution. A good rule of thumb is don't say anything on the message board that you wouldn’t say to someone in person.


Hey, I went by the rule of thumb deal, I see nothing wrong. Nothing I would not say to anyone in person. You have the option of walking away I guess in person.

At least they are preparred for it. I'm heading over to the Mettallica board to see what they think on the subject of Enter Sandman as being a rock classic. I'll post poll results later tonight after JB's gig.

----------


## mrmando

Why don't you and JB carry on the rest of this conversation in person, then? I am not interested in it. 

Think I'll figure out how to add people to my Ignore list.

----------


## mandograss

> Why don't you and JB carry on the rest of this conversation in person, then? I am not interested in it. 
> 
> Think I'll figure out how to add people to my Ignore list.


Wow, just wow. I don't understand how you are any different. Did anyone force you to open this thread over and over again and again?

Avoid flaming or trolling – *posts intended to create discord, antagonize others or create general mayhem.* Be polite and courteous at all times. We expect spirited discussions and widely varying opinions that some may even find offensive, but exercise caution. A good rule of thumb is don't say anything on the message board that you wouldn’t say to someone in person.

----------


## CES

OP, my wife, who plays piano but whose voice is her primary instrument, has told me on several occasions that the singer is the show, and that everyone else on stage is just there to support him/her. The lyrics make the song, and without someone good singing them, who cares?   She was only joking once when she said it.  BTW, my wife is awesome and not nearly the mean-spirited diva the first part of this paragraph makes her out to be...she also doesn't visit this site, so I'm not just covering my tracks  :Laughing: 
I'm sorry that you've had to put up with criticism for having good singers in your band.  It's kind of like people being criticized for not playing a Martin guitar or a Gibson mandolin...just doesn't make any real sense.

As for some good kazoo/"oldternative" music, check out the Wiyos.  Rhythm guitar, bass, and a lead singer who also plays effects ranging from the washboard to kazoo.  Not bluegrass, and I'm in no way insinuating that they are, and if you try to tell me I'm calling them BG I'll be forced to type in all caps, and maybe even embolden the print a bit  :Smile: .  Awesome stuff nontheless!!

----------


## 300win

I don't think I've ever seen this except that it was a female doing it. Some of those I seen had no buisiness trying to sing, some of them thought they could and beat their hand against their thigh, while hollering I call it sue wouldn't singing. And some I've seen that really couldn't do it, but every man clapped wildly for them because of their looks, not their talent. And then there are those I've seen that held a instrument, most times a guitar, but didn't play a lick. Now I'm not knocking women, there are a bunch of them that can sing like an angel, but you don't see them in Bluegrass often that play and sing and can do both well.

----------


## CES

I'll note also that I'd rather see someone "just" sing than stand there and hold an instrument while they're singing.  I can't sing and play well at the same time and have a ton of respect for those who can, especially those who play lead or do complex fingerpicking or crosspicking while singing.  It doesn't bother me so much when a lead man/woman primarily sings and then plays some lead at appropriate times.  But the folks who just stand there and hold it until they strum the final chord drive me a little nuts. Don't know why...

----------


## mrmando

> OP, my wife, who plays piano but whose voice is her primary instrument, has told me on several occasions that the singer is the show, and that everyone else on stage is just there to support him/her. The lyrics make the song, and without someone good singing them, who cares?   She was only joking once when she said it.


She should be joking every time she says it, if she's talking about bluegrass. Pro bluegrass bands will have at least three and sometimes four instrumentalists who can step up and play a lead break that's every bit as compelling as a sung verse. And, although there are many exceptions, lyrics usually aren't the most important factor in a bluegrass song. Most bluegrass bands also play some instrumentals, during which a pure vocalist is best advised to step aside and yield the spotlight to the pickers. 

If you listen to swing band recordings from the early big band era, mid-'20s to mid-'30s, the vocalists in such bands often get to sing once through a standard 32-bar chart and then step aside while the band plays through it 3 or 4 times, with other instruments taking leads. Back then it was not automatically assumed that the singer would get top billing, or that he/she was more important than, say, the trombonist. Rudy Vallee started to change all that, but he was, initially, not the norm.

I'd say that the "singer is just one of the fellas" ethic applies to the music of Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys too. Tommy Duncan was a remarkable singer and deserved a good deal of credit for the Playboys' success ... but as good as his vocals are, they don't dominate the arrangements. And AFAIK Duncan didn't play an instrument.

I'm all for non-instrument-playing vocalists in any genre, as long as they don't behave like divas.

----------


## Matt DeBlass

Getting back to the thread topic, on my experience in various electric and acoustic bands, when it's been a large enough ensemble (more than four people) a dedicated singer has made sense, although when it comes time to split the pay, the larger the band the less everybody gets, so it's harder to book a five-or-six-piece for pubs and coffee shop work. Most of the working bands I've dealt with have been two- to three-piece acts, and in those cases each member is usually expected to both play an instrument and sing at least harmony vocals to help fill out the sound. Sometimes there has been a "front man" who is primarily a singer but also plays tin whistle breaks or similar in between verses. 

On the other hand, there have been occasions where I was asked to play guitar for a non-instrumentalist singer (yes, usually the "chick singer"), but it was always more a case of "the singer and her accompanist" rather than a real band, I was definitely the hired help. 

Most of the time I'm playing solo or in a small group, but it's happened a few times where I've found myself singing, and just singing, in front of a band,  and I have to say that while I may have had more energy to devote to my vocal performance, it felt all kinds of awkward without something in my hands. Especially during the instrumental breaks, I didn't know what to do with myself.

----------


## J.Albert

To me, the rise of the "girl singer" bands requires a new name for what they're playing:
Nashgrass.

This isn't to knock the music or the singers and players. The musicians are usually very very good.

But somehow it doesn't quite seem to be "bluegrass" -- at least the music I've grown old with.

I recall reading a tagline (either on this forum or over at the banjo hangout) that went:
"If the woman is still alive at the end of the song, it ain't bluegrass"

My thought:
If the singer ain't playin' something with the rest of the band, it ain't bluegrass.

- John
I'll make an exception for Ralph Stanley (although even Ralph doesn't refer to what he plays as "bluegrass", but rather "old time mountain music") -- after all the years, he earned the right to put the banjo down with advancing age (in his book, Ralph says that age slowed his fingers to where he couldn't play 3-fingered style well any more, but could still frail away on a number or two).

----------


## catmandu2

> Didn't one of the members of the McLain Family Band do this?


This is somewhat ironic...as the leader of the (our) band is also McLain and I suggested we use that for the band name.

----------


## GRW3

The old joke is "How do you clear out a Bluegrass audience?" Play instrumentals.  The tunes are for the players but the audience loves the songs. 

A band with a good singer and average mus will likely be more successful than band of instrument virtuosos who can't carry tune.

----------


## allenhopkins

> ..you don't see [women] in Bluegrass often that play and sing and can do both well.


You mean like Alison Krauss, Lynn Morris, Martie Erwin (when playing bluegrass), Emily Erwin Robison (ditto) , Rhonda Vincent, Molly O'Day, Alison Brown, Susie Monick, Kathy Kallick, Cindy Cashdollar, Wilma Lee Cooper, Cheryl White, Sharon White, Missy Raines, Sierra Hull, Ginger Boatwright, Sally Van Meter, Ronni Stoneman, Donna Stoneman, Delia Bell, Claire Lynch, Hazel Dickens, the women of the Cox Family, Cia Cherryholmes, Molly Cherryholmes, Sandy Cherryholmes...

Nah, ya never see 'em.

----------


## mrmando

Laurie Lewis, Sara Jarosz, Brittany Haas ...

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## thejamdolinplayer

> The old joke is "How do you clear out a Bluegrass audience?" Play instrumentals.  The tunes are for the players but the audience loves the songs. 
> 
> A band with a good singer and average mus will likely be more successful than band of instrument virtuosos who can't carry tune.



true very true. Wow did my thread receive some attention, it went a little left field with the kazoo content but thats alright. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I am all for breaking boundaries though. IMHO if the singer who doesnt play any instruments is the best singer in the band then why shouldnt he/she do most of the singing?... 

I guess I take this subject to heart because my band has 2 girls that dont play instruments on stage. Our whole band carries the weight, in that we all sing lead and harmony it is a group effort, but then again we are a family band. You be the judge here is video of our band, now should she not sing because she is not playing a guitar.?

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## Ed Goist

Rebecca Lovell...

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## catmandu2

> Now I'm not knocking women, there are a bunch of them that can sing like an angel, but you don't see them in Bluegrass often that play and sing and can do both well.


Is this due to the relatively small size of the female brain?

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## mandolirius

Trisha Gagnon, Nadine Landry, Michelle (?) bass player for Joy Kills Sorrow. She knocked me out when I saw them last fall. The things she could play on the bass while singing really great harmonies just slayed me.

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## mandolirius

> Is this due to the relatively small size of the female brain?


Now, now. This thread has already been pushed back from the brink once.

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## CES

> She should be joking every time she says it, if she's talking about bluegrass. Pro bluegrass bands will have at least three and sometimes four instrumentalists who can step up and play a lead break that's every bit as compelling as a sung verse. And, although there are many exceptions, lyrics usually aren't the most important factor in a bluegrass song. Most bluegrass bands also play some instrumentals, during which a pure vocalist is best advised to step aside and yield the spotlight to the pickers. 
> 
> If you listen to swing band recordings from the early big band era, mid-'20s to mid-'30s, the vocalists in such bands often get to sing once through a standard 32-bar chart and then step aside while the band plays through it 3 or 4 times, with other instruments taking leads. Back then it was not automatically assumed that the singer would get top billing, or that he/she was more important than, say, the trombonist. Rudy Vallee started to change all that, but he was, initially, not the norm.
> 
> I'd say that the "singer is just one of the fellas" ethic applies to the music of Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys too. Tommy Duncan was a remarkable singer and deserved a good deal of credit for the Playboys' success ... but as good as his vocals are, they don't dominate the arrangements. And AFAIK Duncan didn't play an instrument.
> 
> I'm all for non-instrument-playing vocalists in any genre, as long as they don't behave like divas.


Martin, the only reason bluegrass crosses her radar is because I listen to it and try to play it.  Other than some classical piano and George Winston's stuff (piano, not his slack key guitar, which is also phenomenal) she's really not into instrumentals.  She enjoys some AKUS, which many won't even consider to be BG anymore, but that's as far as it goes.  And, they have a couple of phenomenal singers.  In bluegrass, not only do you get a lot of instrumentals, but you also get a lot of people who try to sing like Del, whose voice I find phenomenal...to her the nasally twang is like nails on a chalkboard.  Really, if the genre disappeared forever she'd regret the loss from a historical/cultural standpoint, but it'd be in an, "Oh, that's sad" fashion, and then life would quickly continue as before.  And her preference for singing doesn't end with BG...give her Kathleen Battle and Wynton Marsalis' duet album over Wynton's "Black Codes" anyday.  Billie Holliday she likes, Miles Davis not so much.  I love Count Basie...she can make it through about 3 songs before she loses interest.  Not because she doesn't understand the music or respect the significance of it, but because she prefers songs to tunes, and particularly lyrics sung by people who can really sing.  I'd argue that most Americans are that way...it's why the only place I can find BG on the radio (not satellite stations I pay for, but the good old free FM radio) even here in NC is to catch a crackly station out of Galax (at the right time of day) or luck onto a show on NPR.  While you and I may find 4 or 5 different takes/lead breaks on a singular theme compelling, and sometimes more so than the singing, she would disagree and would probably call it boring after a few songs.

So, she wasn't referring to BG on any of the occasions she made those comments, she knows what BG music is but just doesn't like it in general, she doesn't behave at all like a diva, and don't make me pull out the all capitals...I'll do it man, I'll do it    :Laughing: 

It may be time to hit this thread with the Kenny G...

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## journeybear

> now should she not sing because she is not playing a guitar?


No, but you might want to consider whether you need two guitars.  :Wink: 

I'm kidding.  :Wink:  Seriously, she is a good singer, and you all sound good together. You took a nice ride on that first one, BTW. You are the fourth or fifth good band from Ohio I have heard about in the last month or so. Something good is going on around there.

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## Mike Bunting

> Think I'll figure out how to add people to my Ignore list.


 It's not difficult to figure out, and very useful indeed.

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## 300win

> You mean like Alison Krauss, Lynn Morris, Martie Erwin (when playing bluegrass), Emily Erwin Robison (ditto) , Rhonda Vincent, Molly O'Day, Alison Brown, Susie Monick, Kathy Kallick, Cindy Cashdollar, Wilma Lee Cooper, Cheryl White, Sharon White, Missy Raines, Sierra Hull, Ginger Boatwright, Sally Van Meter, Ronni Stoneman, Donna Stoneman, Delia Bell, Claire Lynch, Hazel Dickens, the women of the Cox Family, Cia Cherryholmes, Molly Cherryholmes, Sandy Cherryholmes...
> 
> Nah, ya never see 'em.


I was talking about the ones I HAVE SEEN. And also that being mostly amatuers because I don't watch many shows, or go to many places where the pros play. Not that I wouldn't like to, its a question of $ on that. On the other hand I have seen Rhonda Vincent a couple times on tv and the Gaither Bluegrass DVD and although I know she is well liked, I'm really not impressed by her singing or playing. In the ones you listed above that I have seen or heard is Alison Krauss and she is in a class by herself in my opinion, can play great, and sings like an angel. One of my favorite female singers, the other being Patty Loveless and she can sing some pretty serious Bluegrass when she wants to. See you've seen way more than I have, good for you. Like I said I ain't knocking those that can, just most of the ones I HAVE SEEN.

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## devilsbox

At least if they stand up there with no instrument, they are being honest. My gripe is the ones who stand there with an instrument and never play a note, it is just used as a prop. You know the type, watch them closely and they never really play, they just pose.

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## allenhopkins

> ...See you've seen way more than I have, good for you. Like I said I ain't knocking those that can, just most of the ones I HAVE SEEN.


Good point.  Nor have I seen in person all those talented women; I've seen them on television, and you can see almost all of them just by looking them up on YouTube.  I've listened to their recordings, read about them in BG publications, seen some of them at regional festivals and concerts.

I didn't mean to jump down your throat, really.  But there was a lot of talk a couple decades ago, that "women shouldn't play bluegrass," of if they did, they should just be singing rhythm guitarists.  I think that got blown away for me back in the '80's when I saw Lynn Morris playing, I think with Whetstone Run at the time.  I knew she'd won the banjo contest at Winfield, and I'd heard her trio recording with City Limits out of Denver, but she really was a revelation to me in person.  Great picker, great singer, great personality.  I know her medical issues have slowed her down, but I have never felt the same about "girl singers" after that.  I'd enjoyed the Buffalo Gals out of Syracuse, with Susie Monick on banjo and Martha Trachtenberg singing, and when I saw (fellow Harvard alumn) Alison Brown on banjo with Alison Krauss, I was again blown away.  The Doug Dillard Band with Ginger Boatwright on guitar was on the same bill, so you saw some really top-flight picking and singing from some incredibly talented women.

One of the great things about bluegrass recently is that it's opened up to women, bands from other countries, and (grudgingly) to some style and repertoire innovations.  Now, that's my opinion, not shared by all (are you out there, Willie?), and I concede that there's a real strong traditional core to the music and to its fans.  Sometimes I think that the "trad" people are unnecessarily critical of people who try to "push the envelope" a bit, but, hey, differences of opinion and perspective are why we have threads like this, right?

----------


## delsbrother

> Bono can play the guitar , but doesn't in U2's  performances , they seem to have done well.


Bono has a _#####_ (at least, that's what I hear) so he is exempt from the topic of this thread.

[edit] LOL I should've said Bono had a kazoo. It would've meant the same thing but wouldn't have gotten censored!

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## jimmy powells

Hi. Best thing is to ignore any such comments. In life generally I never take any heed of comments made from people I don't respect and anyone who makes such comments about not having an instrument is a fool so I wouldn't respect them. Instrumentals are impressive but bluegrass can often be like blues really and people think it's ALL ABOUT THE SOLO. It's actually ALL ABOUT THE SONG and give me a great singer every time regardless of if they can play an instrument or not. A great song delivery says it all. We've seen enough people holding guitars on stage who have them for show but in the ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS (which we are all in when playing in public) then a great singer is very much appreciated and in many cases they develop a stage presence and make a connection with the audience. Not having a guitar to twiddle with forces them to speak and connect with the audience. 
Audiences LOVE TO SING and it's not all about instrumental virtuosos. It's all about the audience.
Jimmy Powells (Singer, mandolin, Guitar)
Northumberland
England.

----------


## 300win

> Good point.  Nor have I seen in person all those talented women; I've seen them on television, and you can see almost all of them just by looking them up on YouTube.  I've listened to their recordings, read about them in BG publications, seen some of them at regional festivals and concerts.
> 
> I didn't mean to jump down your throat, really.  But there was a lot of talk a couple decades ago, that "women shouldn't play bluegrass," of if they did, they should just be singing rhythm guitarists.  I think that got blown away for me back in the '80's when I saw Lynn Morris playing, I think with Whetstone Run at the time.  I knew she'd won the banjo contest at Winfield, and I'd heard her trio recording with City Limits out of Denver, but she really was a revelation to me in person.  Great picker, great singer, great personality.  I know her medical issues have slowed her down, but I have never felt the same about "girl singers" after that.  I'd enjoyed the Buffalo Gals out of Syracuse, with Susie Monick on banjo and Martha Trachtenberg singing, and when I saw (fellow Harvard alumn) Alison Brown on banjo with Alison Krauss, I was again blown away.  The Doug Dillard Band with Ginger Boatwright on guitar was on the same bill, so you saw some really top-flight picking and singing from some incredibly talented women.
> 
> One of the great things about bluegrass recently is that it's opened up to women, bands from other countries, and (grudgingly) to some style and repertoire innovations.  Now, that's my opinion, not shared by all (are you out there, Willie?), and I concede that there's a real strong traditional core to the music and to its fans.  Sometimes I think that the "trad" people are unnecessarily critical of people who try to "push the envelope" a bit, but, hey, differences of opinion and perspective are why we have threads like this, right?


There was one band back when I was picking around '70-'73 that was good. And they were a all girl band, I can only remember the mandolin players name was Gwen Auman, and if I remember correctly they went by the name of the "Coon Creek Girls". All them gals could pick good and sing, had  good harmony too. But they were rare esp. back in tose days. I had totaly forgotten them until I was posting on another thread and another member posted something that jarred my memory. Heck if them girls was around now and sounded like they did back then I have no doubt they would be getting some pretty good gigs probably at some of the festivals.

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## allenhopkins

Gwen Aumen's still around picking mandolin; didn't know she was affiliated with the Coon Creek Girls -- a band that goes back before WWII, and was revived as the *New* Coon Creek Girls around 1980 or so.

Here's a video with the original Coon Creek Girls, Lilly May Ledford on banjo, and the New Coon Creek Girls with Dale Ann Bradley, doing _How Many Biscuits Can You Eat?_ -- probably 40 years apart...

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## mandolirius

<Sometimes I think that the "trad" people are unnecessarily critical of people who try to "push the envelope" a bit>

Definitely. There's no need for it. I am as big a fan of traditional bluegrass as you'll find. Most of the BG I listen to tends to be from the "golden age". But I like lots of newer stuff, especially recent bands I've heard that are blending BG and old-time qualities. I liked The Country Gentlemen, The Newgrass Revival, The Seldom Scene, the influx of women into the music, dobro, good new songwriters like Gillian Welch. To me, it's exciting to see bluegrass alive and doing so well. As a diehard traditionalist, I'm not seeing the downside to all of that. People will always play hardcore bluegrass, the original five instruments laying it down as the greats did years ago.

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## Mike Bunting

The blending of blue grass and old-time is stuff I really like, to me Sarah Jarosz epitomizes this, a great feel and real lyrics. I just don't care for the modern stuff that calls itself bluegrass that seems to lapse into mere ####### for the sake of "appealing to a wider audience". The good stuff always let's you come to it rather than throwing out a lariat and trying to rope me (or my wallet) into it.

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## thejamdolinplayer

> No, but you might want to consider whether you need two guitars. 
> 
> I'm kidding.  Seriously, she is a good singer, and you all sound good together. You took a nice ride on that first one, BTW. You are the fourth or fifth good band from Ohio I have heard about in the last month or so. Something good is going on around there.



Thanks for the compliments man... Ya I know we have talked about the whole 2 guitar thing, but my bro doesnt play any lead and he fills in where my dad lacks on that hard drivin bluegrass rhythm(my dad being solely an old country player at heart) so I guess they compliment each other.

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## JeffD

> I'll note also that I'd rather see someone "just" sing than stand there and hold an instrument while they're singing.  I can't sing and play well at the same time and have a ton of respect for those who can, especially those who play lead or do complex fingerpicking or crosspicking while singing.  It doesn't bother me so much when a lead man/woman primarily sings and then plays some lead at appropriate times.  But the folks who just stand there and hold it until they strum the final chord drive me a little nuts. Don't know why...


Isn't that what the tambourtine is for?

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## journeybear

Or, in Linda McCartney's case, the harmonium.  :Smile: 

Oh, that's right - her mike wasn't on, either, only in the monitors. Never mind ...  :Whistling:

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## Willie Poole

I won`t mention the bands name but a few days ago I saw a band and one fellow wasn`t playing an instrument and he didn`t sing....He whistled when it came time to take a break in the middle of the song (s)....Now is that bluegrass?   To some of you the answer is YES.....

     Willie

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## allenhopkins

> ....Now is that bluegrass?...


Can't say.  What was the rest of the band like?  Did they have acoustic guitar, five-string finger-picked banjo, mandolin etc.?  Did they play songs/tunes from the bluegrass repertoire?  Did they sing good tight harmony, put on a decent show, relate well to their audience?  Did they *claim* to be a bluegrass band?

I might not enjoy a band with a "designated whistler," might even say that "whistlin's no part of nothin'," might get up and walk out, go to the beer tent (assuming there _was_ a beer tent).  Or I might recall that Dock Walsh's Carolina Tar Heels, back in the 1920's, featured Garley Foster, who was called the "Human Bird" for his uncanny ability to imitate bird calls.  Most probably, I'd give 'em a listen, decide on the basis of musical quality and my personal taste whether I liked their sound, and if I did, buy a CD.

What I wouldn't try to do, is define them into or out of "bluegrass" as a style.  Had this argument before, of course, and stickin' to my guns: what I or anyone else does or doesn't like, is not the definition of a musical style.  I can say Banjo Boris and the Whistlepigs are horrid, dissonant, unmusical posers, but I can't say they aren't (or are) "bluegrass."

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## 300win

> Gwen Aumen's still around picking mandolin; didn't know she was affiliated with the Coon Creek Girls -- a band that goes back before WWII, and was revived as the *New* Coon Creek Girls around 1980 or so.
> 
> Here's a video with the original Coon Creek Girls, Lilly May Ledford on banjo, and the New Coon Creek Girls with Dale Ann Bradley, doing _How Many Biscuits Can You Eat?_ -- probably 40 years apart...


Didn't say for "sure" they were called that. It was ______ ? Creek Girls, and my memory is not what ot used to be, and I'm trying to recall something back in 1970 '71 period, so I could be wrong. Where and who is Gwen picking with now ?

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## mandograss

> 


I like me some biscuits myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc_lIbwi_Uo

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## dogwood

ROTFLMAO!!!  You people are cracking me up!

....to add a little marketing flare, how bout the Noocoon Creek Girls?

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## dogwood

...and come to think of it, why can't anyone that plays also sing?  You already got the gall-dern sound in yer head!  Just spit it out!

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## smsuryan

Should just be thankful you have a good vocalist that you can get along with...i've never had luck either a. finding a vocalist thats nearly as good as they think they are ..or
b. finding one that doesn't want to come in and run the show with a band thats been together a long time....
just my experience, anyway...

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## JeffD

> ...and come to think of it, why can't anyone that plays also sing?  You already got the gall-dern sound in yer head!  Just spit it out!


Singing, and singing well, is a skill every bit as involved and requiring as much talent and training as playing in instrument.

Singing poorly is not welcome anywhere.

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## journeybear

This is something that used to get discussed among my friends in the 60s (maybe it was a teenager thing) - were the groups that had a dedicated lead singer better or worse than the ones that didn't? Were people like Mick Jagger, Jim Morrison, Eric Burdon, John Kay, and so forth really pulling their own weight. Were The Doors really a three piece band with a singer? I think time has told the tale on these issues, as at least the first two and to some extent the second two have come to be recognized as emblematic performers who helped define the 60s. Somehow I don't recall this issue being raised about Janis Joplin or Grace Slick, or her Jefferson Airplane bandmate Marty Balin for that matter.

And has been pointed out before, this never seems to have been an issue in country. Solo artists were usually mentioned just by their name, and the band hardly ever got mentioned at all. A lot of them had names - Merle Haggard and The Strangers, Loretta Lynn and The Coal Miners - but on the albums and marquees, in headlines and articles, only the singer ever got the recognition. I guess since there were 1352 guitar pickers in Nashville, they were considered anonymous and interchangeable. It's funny how in the last decade or so, when Vince Gill, Brad Paisley, and Keith Urban, maybe some others, developed reputations for being instrumentalists as well as singers, things kind of came full circle. I would include Marty Stuart, but I think he was known as a picker first. But it is still a little unusual for country singers to play lead - much more common for them to strum a rhythm guitar, and that is usually down in the mix. Not always a prop, though - this often helps the singer keep his place in the song.

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## jaycat

> Singing, and singing well, is a skill every bit as involved and requiring as much talent and training as playing in instrument.


Talent yes, training, not always. There are a lot of naturals out there who never took a lesson (singers and instrumentalists). That's what makes the rest of us crazy.

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## jaycat

> Somehow I don't recall this issue being raised about Janis Joplin or Grace Slick, or her Jefferson Airplane bandmate Marty Balin for that matter.


Bringing up Marty Balin should settle this whole damn debate once and for all. One of the most gifted vocalists in _any_ genre. I would think that even the BG purists out there wouldn't mind having him fronting their band sans instrument.

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## Wolfboy

> This is something that used to get discussed among my friends in the 60s (maybe it was a teenager thing) - were the groups that had a dedicated lead singer better or worse than the ones that didn't? Were people like Mick Jagger, Jim Morrison, Eric Burdon, John Kay, and so forth really pulling their own weight.


To further complicate matters, it should be pointed out that just because a singer _doesn't_ play an instrument doesn't necessarily mean he/she _can't_ - two cases in point from the rock world being Roger Daltrey, who was an accomplished guitarist even before the Who first formed (it was a mutual strategic/image decision by the group to have him be the non-instrument-playing lead singer/frontman, as I understand), and Joey Ramone, who was a drummer before he became the Ramones' non-instrument-playing lead singer.

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## Wolfboy

> But it is still a little unusual for country singers to play lead - much more common for them to strum a rhythm guitar, and that is usually down in the mix.


True, but even back in the day there was the occasional country singer with serious instrumental chops - Glen Campbell and Roy Clark both come to mind...

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## journeybear

Oh yeah, Roy Clark - he could play almost anything. Someone told me just the other day about a time he saw him play nine instruments during the course of one song! But I was talking about "the usual thing," whatever that may be. Roy Clark - well, he was an exception, however you look at him. What a talent!  :Mandosmiley: 

Forgot about Roger Daltrey. Thanks. There were (and still are) others. Back then the argument was usually about who was better, The Beatles or The Stones, and a point that kept coming up was The Beatles didn't need an "extra singer." Brilliant insight, eh? We were _so_ much older then.  :Wink:

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## jaycat

> Back then the argument was usually about who was better, The Beatles or The Stones, and a point that kept coming up was The Beatles didn't need an "extra singer." Brilliant insight, eh? We were _so_ much older then.


Mick did sometimes tootle away on the blues harp, n'est-ce-pas?

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## journeybear

Oui oui, monsieur, c'est tres vrai.  :Smile:  Though John did too,* leaving his guitar hanging from its strap.  :Whistling:  Of course, this goes to Martin's suggestion way back that a singer play something as well. And since the OP was talking about bluegrass to begin with ... let's not go through all that again. Merci!  :Wink: 








*As did Roger Daltrey, Robert Plant (d'oh!), plenty others ...

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## jaycat

So The Persuasions are not bluegrass . . . is that correct?

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## mandograss

> So The Persuasions are not bluegrass . . . is that correct?


Oh no he didn't....

JB will let you know if they are or not. Heck, let's hope they are not some Kazoo playing jug band. You have been warned.

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## sarai

whew a lot of posts - I am going to revive an old thread again.   From a singer's perspective - I actually started playing guitar/mando because I wanted to sing.  I love singing harmonies, but felt I couldn't earn a place in jams, etc. just by singing.  I'm definitely a stronger singer than an instrumentalist at this point but I am learning and hope to earn my stripes.

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## pjlama

> whew a lot of posts - I am going to revive an old thread again.   From a singer's perspective - I actually started playing guitar/mando because I wanted to sing.  I love singing harmonies, but felt I couldn't earn a place in jams, etc. just by singing.  I'm definitely a stronger singer than an instrumentalist at this point but I am learning and hope to earn my stripes.


I started playing mando mostly to sing too. I played bass forever but always felt that playing bass while singing was a little harder for me. Little did I know I'd fall in love with simply playing mando but it has helped my singing.

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## sarai

> I played bass forever but always felt that playing bass while singing was a little harder for me.


 Yeah that would be hard I think.

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## pjlama

I did it ok but it really compromised both areas where with mandolin I can give them both my best.

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## journeybear

Well, of course there are some people out there who sing and play bass at the same time, and I bet they can chew gum and walk and rub their belly and pat their heads at the same time, too.  :Wink:  Paul McCartney, Jack Bruce, Sting, the guy from Rush whose voice I can't stand and name I can't remember - but of course this is all rock stuff. Don't know what the case is in bluegrass. I think the common perception is playing a rhythm instrument is easiest for a singer, which is why singing lead guitarists in country bands - Brad Paisley, Vince Gill - stand out. But then, in bluegrass bands, the bass is often playing some pretty simple stuff and is pretty much a rhythm instrument, so you would think ...

I dunno. I think singing, really good singing, takes a skill set and a level of concentration a lot of musicians might not have. For me, for whom singing is and always has been secondary, I do better when strumming chords while singing. Helps me fix the melody in time and harmony. Some singers really use their voices as instruments; I'm not one of them. I'm a songwriter presenting a song, trying to put it over. Hopefully that is enough, when there is good enough backup.

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## Steve L

A good singer that connects with an audience is one of the most valuable assets any band in any idiom can have.

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## Bertram Henze

> always felt that playing bass while singing was a little harder for me.


You might take a lead from her.  :Grin:

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## catmandu2

I've always enjoyed Joelle Leandre

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## Steve Ostrander

Mick Jagger actually plays harmonica on some of their songs.

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## journeybear

It should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway (that's my way) - I'm sure these people have all practiced a good bit before stepping out on stage. Like any musical endeavor, practice will help you overcome all kinds of hurdles. The more you do, the more you can, and you will find you can do and can the can all the more than you thought at first.  :Wink: 

And yes, Steve-O, and also he has been known to strap on a guitar and strum a bit as well. He has in fact produced some of rock's most memorable harp licks - "Midnight Rambler," for instance - in no small part by keeping it simple and within his capabilities. The great stuff on "Miss You" was not by hime, by the way, but someone they met somewhere name of Sugar Blue, if I recall correctly. Like Scarlet Rivera (great fiddle on Dylan's "Hurricane"),  he did his thing may have put out an album in the wake of his sudden fame, and faded into the shadows. _C'est la vie ..._

* Actually, I must retract that last statement. Seems Sugar Blue (née James Whiting) has had a modest but respectable career since then, even getting a Grammy for his work on a Willie Dixon album. Good to learn this (thank you, interweb) - I thought he had some chops. Same goes for Scarlet Rivera. You know, back in the day - and I do mean back when these artists made a splash after established stars got them on their records - such people got to do an album, which usually flopped, and they were never heard from again, or not on the same level. Nowadays, thanks or curses to the interweb, no one ever fully disappears anymore. Not sure how I feel about that. Obscurity does have its charms, its mysterious allure that inspires curiosity.

All right, enough of a sidetrack. As you were!  :Smile:

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## Alex Orr

> Mick Jagger actually plays harmonica on some of their songs.


And guitar.

Also, back to the OP...  One reason nobody has mentioned is that in a typical BG band, sometimes up to half the repertoire is instrumentals.  The person not playing an instrument can look pretty awkward onstage during those tunes.

Like someone else mentioned, historically (hell, even currently) there is little money in playing BG.  You had to economize your band.  Odds are if you have five or six pickers, at least two of them can sing and you can probably teach a third person how to do harmony lines when necessary, so you go with that instead of adding a full-time singer in addition to the other folks.

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## Tim2723

This might have been said earlier (this is, after all, an old six-page thread), but as a working musician in the trenches of the work-a-day, hand-to-mouth world, we can't afford a member that only sings.  There's a practical aspect of the division of labor that has to be considered.  We need someone to do more than one job, if only not to look out of place and awkward, as Alex said.  We don't need a cowbell or tambourine player either.

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## sarai

> We don't need a cowbell or tambourine player either.


 agreed

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## Andy Alexander

It seems to me that if someone wants to be a professional bluegrass musican, they would make the comittment to at least learn a rhythm instrument.  There are already too many talented musicians chasing after a limited number of paying jobs to need to settle on a non-picking vocalist.

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## allenhopkins

> ...We don't need a cowbell or tambourine player either.


How 'bout bodhran???

Haven't reviewed all the posts (lazy, ya know) to find out if this point has come up, but I sometimes wonder about those bands that seem to have an oversupply of rhythm guitarists, basically because they want to get the musicians' vocals, and will have them chord along (sometimes inaudibly) so it appears they "play" as well.

On the other hand, there are those singers -- Elvis Presley and Johnny Cash come to mind as former examples -- who ostentatiously carry and strum guitars, with no audience-discernible acoustic result, just so it doesn't look like they're "mere" vocalists.  While, in fact, it's their singing that everyone came to hear, not their guitar chops.

Last time I saw Lester Flatt, year or so before he died, Curly Seckler was providing all the guitar in the Nashville Grass; Flatt still carried his, seemed to be fingering the chords, but you couldn't hear him.  Understand that Ralph Stanley has become only a vocalist, other than a couple of clawhammer tunes that he includes each performance.  But in each case, it was Flatt and Stanley that the audience primarily came to hear, whether they could still hold up their ends on guitar/banjo or not.

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## jmalmsteen

Is it okay to honor tradition here? I don't want to see a bluegrass band with a vocalist who does not play an instrument. The difference with a bluegrass crowd is that you have a much larger percentage of the audience who are pickers when compared to other audiences. You won't see people jamming at a rock concert etc. Ralph is the exception here. He can't physically play like he used to but we all know he was one of the greats and respect him for that.

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## llg

The large majority of crowds still appreciate good singers the most. For example my wife loves all kinds of music and appreciates how well I can play multiple instruments. However, she's heard me play with some other great musicians doing complicated instrumentals and she's heard me play with lesser musicians that could sing very well.  Her preference is good singing.   I really think most audiences like GOOD SINGING first.    I have played alot of  Bluegrass over the years but I started in Rock, Country and I've noticed a lot of jealousy in all music types.   When someone can sing really well it's usually more natural talent and less work.  Unlike playing any instrument which usually takes more time to get really good.
    I find there are a lot of good musicians that have worked hard at their craft and are often threatened by a great singer.   Many bands I've played in would rather do most of their own singing than to let a better singer do it.   The crowd would rather hear the best singer, but the band would rather do it themselves...money issues aside that has to be jealousy.      If you really want to please a crowd, give them what they want to hear,  If not then just stay home and play in the garage.

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## Jim

> the guy from Rush whose voice I can't stand and name I can't remember


Geddy Lee is his name.

As for non playing singers, So many of them have great voices but can't count. Now that rules them out as being a "good singer" in my book. However, unless they've spent time in choir , they often have had no reason to learn. It'really a buzzkill when they start singing 2 measures before your break is over or when you resolve that last passage to perfection at the end of the break and they don't start singing. Just my 2 cents.

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## Astro

This is a charged topic. Good discussion. I've gone back and forth on this myself. But I must admit I get a little annoyed by a very common post in the music section of craigslist that can be interpreted:

"I am a singer looking for a band. My voice is my instrument. I am looking for a bunch of talented musicians to work their butt off learning my favorite scores in the keys that best suite my voice so I can show up at performance time and get all the glory because everyone knows that all anybody cares about are the vocals anyway"

They don't come out and say it that way but thats about how some of them come across. And what hurts, there is an element of truth there.

I have an acquaintance who famously said something to the effect that he wasn't going to work his butt off to be someone elses karaoke machine. I feel the same way and gravitate to vocalists that play ....something.

On the other hand, singing is hard work too. I have to practice that as much as I do guitar. And the truth is the singing instrument is live tissue. It doesn't always play the same. Allergies, colds, tiredness, dryness all vary. It does take practice and also requires muscle memory. And while many instruments sound better as they age, voices rarely do. The singing life tends to be much shorter than the instrumentlists'. Its quite sad remembering what you used to could sing and there's no amount of practice to go there again. Of course you work around your limitations (just like you do on an instrument). But its different.

Finally, singing requires you to really put yourself out there. You are naked and exposed with no where to hide. Your feelings intentionally completely transparent for the world to view.

I see both sides. And I like and fear both.

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## Jim

Memorizing all those lyrics isn't easy either.

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