# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  tonguards ..do they really work?

## varmonter

I have a new ellis a5.  Brand new. My initial impression is that it is a wonderful inst.
It replaced my 20 year old rigel. The ellis is significantly lighter in weight. I unfortunatly am
Not...so the back of the mando resting on my
Craft beer investment tends to dampen the
sound. .much more so than the rigel.So do these tonguard things really help.??
And do you get what you pay for...are there
Really good ones and cheap junk out there.??
Also and more important As the finish is obviosly
Fresh on this inst...do i need to be concerned
With damage at the attachment points..
Thx

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## Tobin

Yes, ToneGards are one of the few mandolin "gadgets" that really do work as advertised, with easily provable results.  I'm not sure what other brands/makers have tried it, but I'd go straight to the source for an original. http://www.tone-gard.com/  Tony Pires is also a member here at the Cafe, and very helpful.

I use one on my Ellis F5, and wouldn't leave home without it.  As for finish damage, yes, you may notice a little bit of wear at the contact points.  Not necessarily on the back of the mandolin, but where the arms grab the sides.  He uses surgical-grade tubing that is non-volatile and shouldn't have any chemical effect on a finish, but still, there's always the possibility of mechanical wear from rubbing.  I did notice some slight "wrinkling" of the finish on my Ellis around these arms when it was new.  But it doesn't bother me too much these days.  I want the volume and tone I get from having the back un-damped.

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## Paul Busman

Craft beer investment*-- LOVE it!
For me the Tone-guard has most definitely been worth it. As far as I know, there is only the real thing, no clones. They sometimes show up used on the classified boards here.
I was skeptical until I went to a festival and met a guy who had one on his mandolin. He let me use it on mine, and I immediately heard the difference.
You can test the concept easily enough. Play your mandolin a bit in your usual playing position against your craft beer mandolin 
mute :Grin:   Now, move the mandolin slightly away from your belly and listen for the difference. If you like what you hear, buy one.
I've found that while sitting it makes less of a difference since I can easily hold the mandolin away from my belly, but standing with the instrument on a strap, that's a lot more difficult and that's where the Tone-gard really shines.
*I used to live in upstate NY and had plenty of opportunities to invest in some of adjacent Vermont's excellent craft brews.

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## Atlanta Mando Mike

Yes.

If it sits against your body when you play there is no question that it works.

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## Stevo75

On another thread there was a bit of a debate regarding whether or not the Tone Gard makes a difference for someone else across the room (there was no debate about whether or not it changed the sound for the player of the mandolin). Anyway, they said they did an experiment and found no difference standing out in front of the mandolin with and without the Tone Gard.  I did the same experiment with my girlfriend and she did notice a difference (fuller sound and louder).  It wasn't a double blind experiment, so it's not exactly scientific, but it was good enough for me.

It probably depends on the mandolin. For me and my mandolin, using a Tone Gard makes a big difference and it seems to make a difference for someone listening out in front of the mandolin. Plus the weight of the Tone Gard hold the mandolin in place. I like the playing position I get from using the Tone Gard, especially standing. In a seated position I have found it makes less of a difference for me unless I'm slouching.

The one thing I do not like about the Tone Gard is that I have not found a case that will fit when it is on. So that means I need to take it on and off a lot. It hasn't done anything visible to the finish yet, but it's probably not great for it.

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## JeffD

> The one thing I do not like about the Tone Gard is that I have not found a case that will fit when it is on. So that means I need to take it on and off a lot. It hasn't done anything visible to the finish yet, but it's probably not great for it.


That is a good point. It is best to leave it on. I had to buy a new case. I was looking for a new case anyway as I didn't think the vintage case was taking good enough care of the instrument.

ToneGard is great, and I highly recommend them to anyone who has a "bowlback" physique. 

Actually you can kind of test if it will do anything for you. Set your chair into a corner, like the bad boy in school. Play the mandolin normally into the corner, and then away from your body play the same thing. Free up the vibration of the back of the mandolin the way the ToneGard will. The difference you hear is the difference the audience will hear with the ToneGard. 

There are some who claim that the further away from the audience you are the less difference the vibration of the back makes. I don't know if this is true, and I don't understand how it would be true, but nevertheless its out there. I play in jam sessions and intimate venues, so it makes a big difference for me. Far from the audience without a sound system, I would play my resonator.

(As I never remove the ToneGard I have little or no concern what it is doing to the finish. I checked once and didn't find anything at all, but I don't worry about it. The gard is part of the mandolin now.)

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## George R. Lane

> The one thing I do not like about the Tone Gard is that I have not found a case that will fit when it is on. So that means I need to take it on and off a lot. It hasn't done anything visible to the finish yet, but it's probably not great for it.



I have had my Weber Yellowstone  since 2010 and a Tone Gard has been on it for all that time. It did fit tightly in the original case, but that case was very heavy, so I bought a Travelite case and fit it perfectly.

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Ray D

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## MontanaMatt

Very much yes to tonegard.  Fits in my Price case just fine.  I has made little marks at contact points in varnish, but I plan to use the gard forever, so no worries.

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## Chughes423

Yes! My Eastman 315 went from sounding okay to brighter, cleaner and louder. That's the single best investment I have made so far.

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## Bertram Henze

Whatever helps to keep the back of the instrument away from the "investment" is worth every penny.
I play an OM with a body too big for a toneguard, but I have a bottle of Dr Duck's wrapped in a kitchen towel and stuffed into my right pocket which greatly helps to keep the back clear.

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## MediumMando5722

I like the idea of adding a little weight to the body to help it be less neck heavy, also. 

Whether or not anyone besides the player can hear it... who cares? I don't choose strings, picks, and whatnot based on what the other guy likes and hears.

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## dhergert

I also use Tone-Gards on both of my F-style mandolins and I highly recommend them.  There is a noticeable volume difference at least from the player aspect and very likely from the audience aspect also.  

If you really like the concept of a Tone-Gard and you are really serious about avoiding all muting caused by contact with human body parts, you may also want to get an armrest.  And if you're a picking hand finger-dragger like me, you may also want a pick-guard/finger-rest/whatever-you-call-it.  But at least in my opinion, of these three device concepts, the Tone-Gard is the most obvious volume improver.

It isn't quite as obvious with the Tone-Gard, but all three of these devices do cause a change in picking-arm and picking-hand geometry, so you may find yourself adjusting your playing to accommodate that change.  Some of us really like that geometry change.

For those that care, these devices also help protect the finish of the instrument in the coverage shadows that they produce.

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## Tom Sanderson

I have had a couple of them for about a year now. I have 2 Nugget mandolins, one F5 and one Ajr. I could notice a difference in tone on both mandolins with them on, but no difference with them against my belly or held away. My conclusion was that the tone guards changed the tone by adding more mass to the instrument. On my F5  I didn't like how it changed the tone, on the Ajr it sounded like it enhanced the tone some. This past Easter, I was at my friends house for dinner and brought my mandolins and tone guards with me. He also has 2 Nuggets, An F5 and an A5. He also has a tone guard. We fooled around for about an hour, trying each mandolin with the tone guard off, and then with it on. First playing it against our bellies then away. We did this several times back and forth (he played while  I listened, then I played while he listened) With each mandolin. We both agreed that there was little to no difference in tone playing all 4 mandolins with the toneguard off against our bellies compared to playing them away from our bellies, and with the tone guard on, playing against our bellies and with them away. We also agreed that each mandolin sounded different with the toneguard on compared to with it off, but no real difference with them played against our bellies than away, except with the toneguard off there was a slight difference in volume playing them against us.  My conclusion is still that the tone difference is because of the added mass. My friend agrees.

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## MikeEdgerton

The Tone-gard is probably the only musical instrument gizmo that I can heartily endorse. Others may not hear a difference in their mandolins, I hear a difference in mine. What anybody else does or does not hear doesn't matter a whole lot to me. I can hear a difference in the instrument played against my belly.

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MediumMando5722, 

RustyMadd

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## Stevo75

I can also confirm that I hear a big difference in my mandolin when holding it against me and holding it away from me (this is not subtle, its a very obvious difference in tone and volume).  This could be a function of something specific to my mandolin or some mandolins. I'm sure there are other mandolins out there that might sound the same when the back is held against one's belly and held away (it might also depend on the belly).

Anyway, for me and my mandolin, the tone gard's affect on tone is due to moving the instrument away from my body, not from increased mass.

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## Tom Sanderson

When I replied to this thread I already knew that my opinion was just that "My opinion". I didn't expect anyone to agree with it and am not trying to create a debate. I just felt that it might be useful information. If you like what the toneguard does for you, it does not matter what I think. Use it and love it. I was in a situation where I was looking for another case for my mandolin that would fit a toneguard when I am perfectly happy with the case that I have.  That caused me to take a closer look at what the toneguard really does for me and if I thought that there was really enough difference to me to justify buying a new case just to fit the toneguard. I bought one because of all of the positive things that I have read here about them My conclusion is that for me it is not worth buying another case , or packing it separately just to have it. I have been playing mandolin since 1973, and learned early on to keep the back away from my body.   Different points of view are always useful unless your mind is already made up.

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MediumMando5722

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## sblock

No, sorry, that's incorrect!  _ToneGards do not work because they add mass._  They work because they provide relief between the back of the mandolin and the player's own body.  You can achieve the same relief effect by simply angling the mandolin away well from your body, so it makes no contact, while playing.  Of course, this results in an awkward playing position for most of us, which is why we prefer to use a ToneGard!  It is particularly hard to angle the mandolin away from your body when playing upright, as opposed to when sitting.

The idea that a ToneGard functions by adding mass is easily debunked.  First, the ToneGard only makes contact with the rim of the mandolin, and does almost nothing to disturb its key vibrating surfaces, which are the top and back.  Second, you can add some additional mass to the ToneGard, if you like (clip a small weight onto the back of it it!), and you will find that doing so does nothing whatsoever to alter the sound from that heard with the unweighted ToneGard.

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j. condino

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## varmonter

Thanks...i guess my question about the finish
Wear is more related to the "newness" of the finish.
Being softer than one that has cured for awhile.
Do you think i should wait 6 months before adding a toneguard.

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## HonketyHank

Some times when I try to extract my foot from my mouth, I wish I had a tongueguard.

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MediumMando5722

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## sblock

> Thanks...i guess my question about the finish
> Wear is more related to the "newness" of the finish.
> Being softer than one that has cured for awhile.
> Do you think i should wait 6 months before adding a toneguard.


It's not so much "wear" (that is, abrasion), _per se_, but the possibility that the ToneGard, which exerts a small clamping force through the its silicone tubing-covered prongs, can "indent" a finish if it's not sufficiently well cured, if the ToneGard is left in place for months at a time, as it usually is.  Unfortunately, some instrument finishes can remain plastic -- in the original sense of that word, meaning _deformable_ -- for quite some time after they are put on the mandolin.  It depends on the type and thickness and formulation of the finish.  Thin spirit varnish finishes are rather hard, and so are polymer finishes.  But many of the nitrocellulose lacquers can remain soft, especially those that are fairly thick.  And so can some oil varnish finishes.

Unfortunately, there is no hard and fast rule about how long you must wait, since this depends on the exact formulation, as well as the thickness applied. It might be months of even years, or not at all!

If I were you, I would just go for it, and not worry if the ToneGard prongs produced minor dents in the finish.  They might not do this, anyway.  And if they do, these tiny marks will not harm the sound and scarcely affect the looks.  But you might feel differently about that.  One way to look at it is that the ToneGard will protect the back of your mandolin from scratches and dings from other sources (like belts and shirt buttons), and most of those are more unsightly than the minor marks that might -- or might not -- be left by the prongs!

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## KGreene

Of all the gadgets i've purchased, the Tone Guard is by far the best investment. I keep one on each of my mandolins with no issues with the finish...All fit nicely in my Guardian case as well as theorinial cases.

Regards,

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## misterstormalong

I've just fitted a Tone-Gard and it's made a very significant difference. My picking is coming out loud and clear and I've had to throttle back on my chop chords.

Rik

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## fidlplr1979

I put one on my Eastman 615 and immediately heard a difference. The back of the mandolin has a lot to do with the bass response and depth of tone from the lower notes and I certainly hear a difference in that lower notes. I think that area tends to be lacking on a lot if not most Eastman mandolins and Tone-Gards help.

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## Explorer

I don't use any such devices, but I have friends who have enthusiativally used things like the Toneguard, or viola shoulder rests like the Kun Solo or the inflatable Playonair shoulder rests. The folks who use the viola shoulder rests instead of a Tonegurd were more focused in avoiding finish damage, and wanted something which could be put on and taken off easily.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Tom Ellis advises that the finish on his mandolins isn't fully cured until after six months have elapsed. Angling the mandolin away from your body allows the back to resonate in the same manner as when using a 'Tone-gard'. None of the mandolin players i know (apart from one in Scotland) use a Tone-gard, & i have no problem hearing them play 'from in front'. I ''suspect'' that the biggest benefit of using a TG is for the actual player,not the listeners. My own Ellis "A" style sounds more than loud enough to me without one. I've also had no comments about it being 'quiet' at my local Folk club.

   But it's a matter of personal opinion & choice - as it should be,


   Personally,i don't care to hang pieces of metal of _any description_ on any of my mandolins - just in case.

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yankees1

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## Billy Packard

Tone-Guards work and are an essential element in the same way a shoulder-rest works with a violin.

Same goes with an arm-rest, albeit with less effect.

Billy

billypackardmandolin.com

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## William Smith

Same goes with an arm-rest, albeit with less effect.



I agree with the tone guard, just try to play with mando against gut then play without it touching gut! You will hear the better sound ya get! So get that fat off the back of that horn! I'd say armrest also work, I have one but don't use it at all, just don't like the looks of one on my mandolin, ya don't see the tone guard? :Cool:

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## Tobin

> Tom Ellis advises that the finish on his mandolins isn't fully cured until after six months have elapsed.


Yup.  From his website: "The mandolin is finished with Behlen Rockhard Oil Varnish with a Tru-Oil french polish. The varnish I use is very durable and quite resistant to sweat, heat, and alcohol, however it will still be curing and soft for 6 months or so."

This will be true of any mandolin with a similar finish.  It takes a long time for the finish to fully cure, and over time it will sort of sink into the wood.  When I first put my ToneGard on my Ellis, it was only a few days after I purchased it (and Tom had just delivered it to Fiddler's Green the night before I bought it).  So the finish was still very young, which is why I started to get some indentations where the arms of the ToneGard contact the sides, and some slight wrinkling on either side.  Over time, this seemed to disappear as the finish hardened and started to sink into the wood.

If there are permanent marks under the arms of the ToneGard, I don't care.  I value the ToneGard so much that I wouldn't even mind permanently mounting it to my mandolin, similar to the old-style Gibson pick guard brackets that required a screw into the side.  The only reason I'd ever be taking off my ToneGard is for repair/maintenance, if ever needed.  




> Angling the mandolin away from your body allows the back to resonate in the same manner as when using a 'Tone-gard'. None of the mandolin players i know (apart from one in Scotland) use a Tone-gard, & i have no problem hearing them play 'from in front'. I ''suspect'' that the biggest benefit of using a TG is for the actual player,not the listeners. My own Ellis "A" style sounds more than loud enough to me without one. I've also had no comments about it being 'quiet' at my local Folk club.


I disagree that the benefit of the ToneGard is for the player, not the listeners.  Using one will definitely increase volume and resonance, which is noticeable by the audience.  Granted, an Ellis mandolin doesn't generally suffer from lack of volume; they have great projection.  So it's not a matter of "needing" one to be heard.  It's just a matter of drawing out the most potential from the instrument without having to hold it awkwardly away from one's body whilst playing.  

For other mandolin makes/brands which don't have a lot of natural volume, a ToneGard may be more necessary for playing to a group or an audience.  In fact, that's why I originally bought this ToneGard.  I had it on my starter mandolin, and it really did boost the volume while still being able to hold it against my body in my natural playing position.

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Ivan Kelsall

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## Frankdolin

I have nothing against the ToneGard or the armrest or the capo or any other gadgets for the mandolin, as long as people play.However for a balanced opinion in the thread I have to say I'm an advocate of proper technique which can alleviate most if not all problems that the gadgets propose to alleviate.   :Mandosmiley:

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Tom Sanderson

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## Tobin

> I have nothing against the ToneGard or the armrest or the capo or any other gadgets for the mandolin, as long as people play.However for a balanced opinion in the thread I have to say I'm an advocate of proper technique which can alleviate most if not all problems that the gadgets propose to alleviate.


What, pray tell, is "proper technique"?  As far as I can tell, mandolins have always been meant for playing in front of one's body, not held away.

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## BrianWilliam

After using it for a year, I took mine off. 

IMO:
- it's more comfortable without
- the tonal differences aren't that great with it on
- craft beer investments can be used to alter dynamics based on the angle of the mandolin which is fun and interesting
- no one in the bands noticed when I removed it

But hey, it's $70 on top of an Ellis. Go for it.

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Tom Sanderson

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## V70416

Been using ToneGuards for 20+ years on mandolins and a couple of ukes. 

Want to get some of the new surgical tubing to replace the old black rubbers.

Have never let proper technique interfere with my playing. 

Tony Pires is the only maker of ToneGuards or any such device of which I am aware.

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## Beanzy

I've always been impressed with the ToneGuard, especially where people play with the mandolin held across their body like a mini guitar. Personally I don't need one, as I don't hold the mandolin in against my body (it rests on my arm & the curve below the tailpiece) so haven't needed to compensate for any lost tone there. But if your hold puts the back of the mandolin against your chest or beer belly, then the TG is going to free it up from damping. As a mandolin hold is such a varied thing it would be pretty difficult to say yea or nay to someone without first seeing how they like to hold the beastie.

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## JeffD

If you can keep the mandolin away from your body, through a combination of perfect technique and perfect physique, the tonegard will make no difference, and is not worth getting.

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j. condino

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## sblock

> If you can keep the mandolin away from your body, through a combination of perfect technique and perfect physique, the tonegard will make no difference, and is not worth getting.


Perfectly true, but this is much harder to do while standing than sitting.

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## Willie Poole

When playing a gig my band only uses one mic so when it`s time for me to take a break I raise the mandolin up away from my belly so adding a tone guard wouldn`t be much use for me, I have only been around one mandolin that had one and after trying it with and without I didn`t see any difference in tone or loudness, it was on a Weber Bitterroot mandolin which I never thought was that great anyway....If in your mind it helps then by all means invest in one, a lot of pickers hear a difference because they want to hear one, it helps to justify their decision to spend money on "improvements"...Just as a note has anyone ever seen a picker using one on a Loar or a Gilchrist?

     Willie

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Tom Sanderson

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## Tobin

> Just as a note has anyone ever seen a picker using one on a Loar or a Gilchrist?


Uhh... Chris Thile, John Reischman, Mike Marshall, David Grisman, Ricky Skaggs, and many more Loar players use Tone Gards.

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George R. Lane

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## pit lenz

> ...Just as a note has anyone ever seen a picker using one on a Loar or a Gilchrist?
> 
>      Willie


Mike Marshall and John Reischman (the only two Loars I've met face to fretboard...)

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## Stevo75

I know that Jordan Ramsey (active on this forum and an excellent picker) uses one on his new Ellis F5 that he won at Winfield this year.

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## Jeff Hildreth

Tone-Gards work so well ... why are they not adapted for steel string and nylon guitars.

Or for the bowed stringed instrument family.

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## Ron McMillan

I don't like the look of the toneguard (or its weight), but I liked the idea of getting more volume out of my no-name 70s F5, so I fudged a fix-it out of a stray piece of pine, two viola chinrest brackets, a lot of filing and sanding, and endless coats of walnut stain. I think it does most of what a toneguard is supposed to do, and I quickly got used to playing with it. It does not need to be removed to fit in any case I have used. 

I am certain it makes my mandolin louder for me, but doubt if it makes much difference to anyone standing in front of it.

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Billkwando, 

derbex

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## MediumMando5722

> If they work so well, why not experiment with genuine Loars to see if they will also improve.


As noted above, John Reischman, David Grisman, Chris Thile, Mike Marshall, Ricky Skaggs and many other Loar players use them. Dawg even has a custom model.

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## Johnny60

Another +1 for the Tone Gard - yes they work!  They do increase volume but they also increase resonance and depth.  Love mine and, if I ever got second mandolin, I'd buy a second TG to go with it.

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## Tobin

> Tone-Gards work so well ... why are they not adapted for steel string and nylon guitars.
> 
> Or for the bowed stringed instrument family.


Have you even bothered to check the website?  He makes a "D-Gard" for dreadnought guitars.  He makes Gards for ukuleles, dulcimers, banjos, etc.  

Bowed stringed instruments generally are not held against the chest.  And they already have their own devices like shoulder rests.

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## MontanaMatt

> Tone-Gards work so well ... why are they not adapted for steel string and nylon guitars.
> 
> Or for the bowed stringed instrument family.


I don't recall the brand, 20+ years ago I had a fiddle shoulder rest that was the same coverage as a tone gard, made from a solid piece of nylon/plastic, and marketed as focusing the sound leaking out the back of the fiddle away from the ground and the player.  It didn't fit well or stay in place so I ditched it, but if I find it in my gear cave, I'll try it again for analysis.

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## JeffD

> Perfectly true, but this is much harder to do while standing than sitting.


Very true. But some folks can do it. I don't have the technique or the physique.

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## Nbayrfr

I use a Schertler dyn pickup. My mandolin sounds best with the pickup attached to the back, directly below the bridge. The Tonegaurd separates the pickup from my body.

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## Chris Daniels

> As noted above, John Reischman, David Grisman, Chris Thile, Mike Marshall, Ricky Skaggs and many other Loar players use them. Dawg even has a custom model.


Skaggs' is a custom version also (flowerpot design) and Alan Bibey uses a custom with 'AB' on his Loar.

I personally think they're great and would rather not play without one.

C.

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## sblock

The Tone-Gard on the back of John Reischman's Loar F5 has been cleverly outfitted to carry the wireless preamp unit for his DPA4099 microphone (which is clamped to the side and positioned over one of the f-holes).  The Tone-Gard therefore does double duty as a part of his sound system, as well as improving the tone of his mandolin when he plays it. He uses the "art deco" style of Tone-Gard, rather than the "sunrise" style, if memory serves, because the metal bars are slightly farther apart, offer a bit more room to mount the preamp.

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## billkilpatrick

Yes, they do - and in addition to whatever anyone else has said, I just resurrected an old Epiphone MM30 from the back of the closet  new strings, new bridge  and it still sounds terrible - BUT! - it sounds much better when played away from and not resting up against the gut.

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Billkwando

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## colorado_al

What I like best about the tonegard is that I can play softer (and faster) and still get good volume and tone compared to without it. Also, in a loud jam situation it helps cut through better.

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## JeffD

> What I like best about the tonegard is that I can play softer (and faster) and still get good volume and tone compared to without it. Also, in a loud jam situation it helps cut through better.


Yes, and when you are louder, you have more dynamic range to mess with, so you can play more expressively.

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## misterstormalong

While I could learn to hold the mando away from my body (while avoiding the acoustic mic) it would just be another factor to worry about. The TG solves the problem without having to think about it. It also provides a degree of protection for the back surface.

Rik

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## Dave Hanson

If you play with the strap just over the right  [ or left ] shoulder it is easier to hold your mandolin away from your body.

Dave H

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David L

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## Tobin

> If you play with the strap just over the right  [ or left ] shoulder it is easier to hold your mandolin away from your body.
> 
> Dave H


But the question in my mind is why anyone would want to have to do that if it's not really necessary?  The mandolin won't naturally hang from the strap in that position; it wants to hang next to your body.  You have to use muscles to push it away and hold it away.  When I'm playing, I don't want to have to use muscles to do anything else but play my mandolin.  Anything that's not necessary for picking or fretting is a distraction, and adds tension.  

Obviously, it does work for some people.  For those who are used to playing that way, I guess it's no big deal.  But when I think of the way other instruments are designed, and the methods that professionals teach their students to play, they always stress the importance of removing all extraneous muscle tension from the equation.  The body should naturally support the instrument in its playing position, to allow for very fine muscle movements with relaxed hands.  

I dunno, it just seems like holding it away from your body is a less-than-desirable solution to the problem.  It works, of course, for freeing the back of the mandolin.  But I wouldn't think that it's the ideal way to go about it, especially when a simple device solves the issue and allows one to play it in a more naturally-held position.

*edited to add: I'm sure the fact that Bill Monroe held his mandolin out away from his body is a large part of why it's so popular to play that way.  It has its charms for stage presence and "cool factor".  And that's hard to argue with.  But ergonomically speaking, I doubt any true professional players would recommend it as the ideal way to play.

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## varmonter

All great thoughts to ponder...i am thinking now
I may hold off on purchasing the tg for a few months..first the ellis came in a tkl case. 
I highly doubt it will fit.i am having a case
Made for it by wayne perry from aus. He is scheduled to start in june..not sure how
Long that takes...but time is good to let it
Cure.  I could always play it like a rock star.
Like that guy from the steeldrivers. A long enough
Strap and i could hold it under my craft beer investment.   :Smile: t
There is a marked difference in tone as well as vol.
When i hold this instrument away from me. A tribute to its fine light and responsive construction.

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## Dave Greenspoon

Yes. And mine has become one with the Rigel. Rarely has come off over many years.

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## Mark Wilson

> Want to get some of the new surgical tubing to replace the old black rubbers.


I bought an older TG listed here and it needed some fresh pads.  Tony included some of the clear tubing he uses now along with the new pads. Better than the black tubing

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## MikeEdgerton

For anyone thinking of replacing their pads with just any clear tubing make sure it isn't vinyl. Vinyl and Lacquer will react. I'm not sure what Tony is using now but I'm sure he knows what is in his tubing. He makes an excellent product.

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musi...nyl/vinyl.html

----------


## JeffD

> While I could learn to hold the mando away from my body (while avoiding the acoustic mic) it would just be another factor to worry about. The TG solves the problem without having to think about it. It also provides a degree of protection for the back surface.


I play for long periods of time, in casual situations. A typical jam runs over two and half hours, frequently over three hours, and I am the one who stays late with the stragglers for the more intimate "after jam jam". So no matter how correct my mandolin hold might be at first, eventually it is the tonegard that keeps the mandolin back free of my body.

----------


## Bob Buckingham

No they don't do any good, just send me any you have.  I know what to do with them.  Actually I don't like one on my Collings MT.  They sound good on all of my other mandolins.

----------


## TonyP

> For anyone thinking of replacing their pads with just any clear tubing make sure it isn't vinyl. Vinyl and Lacquer will react. I'm not sure what Tony is using now but I'm sure he knows what is in his tubing. He makes an excellent product.
> 
> http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musi...nyl/vinyl.html


You are right Mike, plastic and surgical hose are horrible on finishes. Surgical hose is made to be disposable and when it deteriorates it turns into this horrible goo that will eat through epoxy. Plastic hose with eat through anything because of the emulsifiers in it to keep it pliable. The new stuff is Tygon 3350 platinum cured lab grade silicon. It won't deteriorate or oxidize and is totally inert. I was turned on to it by S.Block who happens to be a chem prof at Stanford U. It's 8x more expensive than the old vac hose, but has proven to be worth it. If I'd known of it 30yrs ago I'd have used it. But it being in medical and lab catalogs was totally outside my experience. I also needed help to find the right formulation as there are any number of different applications. Another example of user feedback/help that improved the Gard. Thx Doc.

----------

Johnny60, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Stevo75

----------


## George R. Lane

TonyP,
Thanks for a great product. It makes my mandolin sound better.

----------


## sblock

> You are right Mike, plastic and surgical hose are horrible on finishes. Surgical hose is made to be disposable and when it deteriorates it turns into this horrible goo that will eat through epoxy. Plastic hose with eat through anything because of the emulsifiers in it to keep it pliable. The new stuff is Tygon 3350 platinum cured lab grade silicon. It won't deteriorate or oxidize and is totally inert. I was turned on to it by S.Block who happens to be a chem prof at Stanford U. It's 8x more expensive than the old vac hose, but has proven to be worth it. If I'd known of it 30yrs ago I'd have used it. But it being in medical and lab catalogs was totally outside my experience. I also needed help to find the right formulation as there are any number of different applications. Another example of user feedback/help that improved the Gard. Thx Doc.


Thank you, Tony, for the shout-out!  Actually, I'm a Professor of Applied Physics and of Biology here at Stanford University (a joint appointment), and not Chemistry, but that's a minor detail.  :Wink:   I'm delighted to learn that Tygon 3350 silicone tubing continues to work well to protect the finishes of mandolins with Tone-Gards.  I love my Tone-Gard. As George Lane said, it's a great product!!

Yes, _platinum-cured silicone_ is one of the most inert substances you can find that's made into elastic tubing. It's used in many biomedical applications, because it resists the growth of microorganisms (which cannot 'eat' it). The use of platinum metal as an _external_ catalyst (something which does not form any part of the final tube) insures that there are no _plasticizers_ or _polymerizers_ left inside the tubing walls after the liquid silicone polymer has set up, because no plasticizers/polymerizers are used in the first place -- unlike the case with all other conventional "rubber" or "plastic" (elastomeric) tubing!  It's these plasticizers that typically do all the damage with other types of tubing.  Plasticizers are small, highly reactive molecules that can, and do, leach out of the tubing walls for years, where they can do chemical damage. The plasticizers typically used in flexible vinyl products, for example, are extremely damaging to all nitrocellulose and some varnish finishes, just as Mike Edgerton pointed out.

----------


## Phil Goodson

Is there a way to buy small amounts of the proper tubing to replace the old stuff on older Tone-Gards?

----------


## sblock

> Is there a way to buy small amounts of the proper tubing to replace the old stuff on older Tone-Gards?


Actually, it's hard-to-impossible to buy this in small enough quantities from any commercial vendor, and you only need about 6" for a mandolin -- less than 2" on each of the three prongs.  I'll bet you that Tony Pires (TonyP, here on the MC) would get some to you, though. Why don't you PM him?

----------

Phil Goodson

----------


## varmonter

Fascinating... to quote spock.. all this thought into a 
Little plasticesque nub..thanks for the responses..
I guess my concern right now is more for the finish
Than the projection. This mandolin is plenty loud
Even perched on my craft beer investment. Guess
I will hold off until fall and revisit the TG.

----------


## fidlplr1979

One thing I just recently noticed after playing my mando with the tone-gard off is that my instrument was suffering some loss of sustain from the dampening effect the arms of the Tonegard had on the ribs. When I had it off I noticed a definite improvement in sustain and tone (although a loss in volume due to the back being muffled) so I gently pulled the rubber-coated arms(feet) apart so the Tonegard just fits barely snug around the sides and it helped a lot. That being said I put my Tonegard on back in February and haven't taken it off since then until just the other day because I liked the increase in volume and low-end that it provided. Btw the protection it provides to the back is no small thing and many times has been the difference in a potentially damaging whack against the back and just a mere bump that is thwarted from the protection provided by the TG.

----------

billkilpatrick

----------


## T.D.Nydn

> If you play with the strap just over the right  [ or left ] shoulder it is easier to hold your mandolin away from your body.
> 
> Dave H


I find the same thing..hanging it on one shoulder,the mandolin naturally wants to swing out,away from the body,,your right forearm lightly on the mandolin, like when your playing,,easily controls the instruments angle,and can place it in many positions at will....

----------


## Tobin

> One thing I just recently noticed after playing my mando with the tone-gard off is that my instrument was suffering some loss of sustain from the dampening effect the arms of the Tonegard had on the ribs. When I had it off I noticed a definite improvement in sustain and tone (although a loss in volume due to the back being muffled) so I gently pulled the rubber-coated arms(feet) apart so the Tonegard just fits barely snug around the sides and it helped a lot.


Hmm, that's interesting.  I wouldn't think that the arms would make much of a difference in sustain, since the sides/ribs don't really contribute to sustain.  Sitting the mandolin on your lap is dampening the sides much more than those arms.  I haven't noticed any sustain issues when seated versus standing, or with/without the ToneGard.  And I would have difficulty believing that a slight reduction in pressure of the arms would change the sustain.

But - sustain could be affected by how the ToneGard is fitted to the mandolin, due to the pads on the edge of the cage (the ones that make contact with the rear of the mandolin body when playing, as seen in my photo below).  The arms have to be bent very carefully to make the cage align as closely as possible to the edge of the mandolin so that those pads aren't dampening the back in the recurve area.  Even if they were, it would still be better than not having it installed, but I could see how it would possibly lead to a slight reduction in sustain.  Do you think that your readjustment perhaps changed this contact area?

----------


## PiginaPen

Look at this tone gard experience:
https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/111544#111544

----------


## JeffD

Blemishes from the tonegard are one thing. Damage to the surface is another.

If the legs are eating into the instrument and causing incremental damage, that would not be good.

But blemishes are no part of nuthin. I consider my tonegard part of the instrument now, and what blemishes there are under its feet will never be seen because the tonegard never comes off. Heck, there is a ragged hole into the bare wood underneath the strap button.

----------


## colorado_al

Some people prefer their mandolins to be pristine. Others like to use tone gards or armrests or put strap buttons on the heel of the neck, or have pic guards or not. Your mandolin is likely never going to look as good as it did on the day it left the shop for the first time, but it may sound better as time goes on, and some items like a tone gard or armrest can make that happen instantly. They will cause blemishing, but to me, the trade off is more than worth it. If you don't want anything to blemish your instrument, don't use them. If you want to explore all of the sounds that you and your instrument can make together, then you should certainly try them out.

----------


## billkilpatrick

> … I consider my tonegard part of the instrument now …


Absolutely.  I don't understand the reluctance to get something that helps the mandolin sound better.   I was against them at first because I thought they had to be attached with screws, like a pick guard - but I was wrong.  My mandolin has a nitro finish and so far … blemishes of all sorts have rubbed off very easily.  Don't know about oil-based varnishes, however.

----------


## sblock

Some of the older Tone-Gards managed to cause blemishes by roughening the surface underneath (that is, the removal of the top layers of finish, down to the wood). This was caused mainly by _abrasion_ from taking these on and off, or by rubbing action while in regular use.  Roughening tended to happen mainly with those older, black butyl rubber hoses that covered the three spring prongs which contact the sides of the instrument and hold the Tone-Gard on.  The more recent Tone-Gards have switched over to using clear silicone tubing instead, which is extremely smooth and inert, and it does not roughen the finish.

However, the sustained downbearing pressure from the three prongs, although fairly light, can nevertheless cause a soft finish to _dent_ slightly, displacing a thin layer, and resulting in a different type of blemish: one which is less apparent. This phenomenon does not tend to happen with harder (and older) finishes.  It mainly happens on softer, or thicker, new finishes.  Examples of softer finishes include fresh nitrocellulose lacquer, or new oil or spirit varnish finishes that have not quite fully cured.  These dents do not affect the underlying wood at all, and they can often by rubbed out, if desired, or touched up.  

I have had Tone-Gards on an older Altman F5 (varnish finish), older Pomeroy PF5 (nitro finish), older Mowry A5 (varnish), and a new Northfield M5 (varnish) with the newer silicone tubing for >1 yr, and without causing any blemishes whatsoever. I did get a minor dent on a new Weber whose nitro finish had not fully set up, however.

Those of us with Tone-Gards are happy to make these small compromises.  It's worth adding that they protect the back of the instrument from things like buckle and button rash, and those blemishes are almost invariably worse!  The backs of my mandos are entirely scratch-free!

That said, if you truly want to keep your mandolin in a truly pristine condition, just keep it inside its case and don't take it out and play it.   :Wink:

----------


## RustyMadd

> All great thoughts to ponder...i am thinking now
> I may hold off on purchasing the tg for a few months..first the ellis came in a tkl case. 
> I highly doubt it will fit.i am having a case
> Made for it by wayne perry from aus. He is scheduled to start in june..not sure how
> Long that takes...but time is good to let it
> Cure.  I could always play it like a rock star.
> Like that guy from the steeldrivers. A long enough
> Strap and i could hold it under my craft beer investment.  t
> There is a marked difference in tone as well as vol.
> When i hold this instrument away from me. A tribute to its fine light and responsive construction.


The thing is that we have established beyond a reasonable doubt that it would improve your tone and volume, and that it actually works. And so logically, you will probably not get one at this time because of a case issue that isn't proven to be relevant to your situation.  Alrighty then.

----------


## dhergert

> All great thoughts to ponder...i am thinking now
> I may hold off on purchasing the tg for a few months..first the ellis came in a tkl case. 
> I highly doubt it will fit.i am having a case
> Made for it by wayne perry from aus. He is scheduled to start in june..not sure how
> Long that takes...but time is good to let it
> Cure.  I could always play it like a rock star.
> Like that guy from the steeldrivers. A long enough
> Strap and i could hold it under my craft beer investment.  t
> There is a marked difference in tone as well as vol.
> When i hold this instrument away from me. A tribute to its fine light and responsive construction.


This may not help your decision making at this point, but both my Gibson and MK F-styles have fit in a standard TKL case with ToneGards (and armrests, and pickguards) installed.

----------


## Dave Hanson

Does anyone know where I can buy a toneguard in the UK ?

Thanks, Dave H

----------


## V70416

Got an email from Tony. The new tubing he uses is 3350 lab-grade,platinum-cured silicon. He was led to using it by a mandolin-playing
chemistry prof. at Stanford U. The new stuff is completely inert and microscopically non-porus. A 50 foot roll costs $100. The older black vac hose
tubing is $16 for same length.

Tony says"nothing is perfect". Some do not like the milky white color,saying it looks cheap. Also,some have said it tends to grab onto the case lining
more than the black stuff. 

I will always have a ToneGuard on my mandos and ukes.

PS:My apologies. I replied before reading Tony's post explaining the new tubing.

----------


## sblock

I suppose this is a pet peeve of mine, but people:  the tubing on Tone-Gards is made of SILICONE, _not_ silicon.  Silicone is a polymer, consisting of a polysiloxane elastomer.  It's a part of the synthetic rubber family, and it can be used for making things like elastic tubing, breast implants, and seals.  Silicon is a chemical element, and a semiconductor.  It is commonly used for making transistors, photodetectors, computer chips, and so forth.  Stanford University is in Silicon Valley.  Las Vegas, you might say, is in Silicone Valley!   :Mandosmiley:

----------

Billkwando, 

chuck3, 

RustyMadd

----------


## Eric Platt

Received my vintage model yesterday and put it on my 1929 A Jr.  Wow.  What a difference!  Sorry, but I am now a huge advocate.  Really opened up the sound.  And the instrument still fits in the original case.  A bit tight, but it fits.  

That, along with the changing of the tuners yesterday has made this instrument ready to go for any upcoming engagement.

----------


## MontanaMatt

I got new silicone tubes from Tony for my Weber, old style black tubes had been on for about 10 years.  I was ready to see damage in the varnish, nope?  There was a small ridge of goop from drinks, sweat, pick dust, and string vapors.  It wiped clean with a damp cloth.  In addition to improving tone and projection, it has kept the back very well protected, and I play lots.
Don't doubt the gard, protect your tone!

----------


## MandoAblyss

I've had a Tone-Guard on two varnish Collings. After two years I took it off, anticipating a finish mess. Nope, not a sign it was ever there. And I'd consider the Collings finish to be somewhat reactive, at least to tuners (permanent imprint on headstock) and arm rests (cork adhered to finish).

As for tone, I can hear a clear difference and much prefer the sustain, clarity and projection with the Tone-Guard. Even holding instrument just by the neck, it sounds better with Tone-Guard. Maybe the increased mass around the air box does something. Add less important but useful features such as back protection and better balance/reduced neck dive and I think Tone-Guard is a no-brainer.

----------

Turlagh

----------


## RustyMadd

Curious if the OP actuall followed through and got a Tone Guard eventually? Well, did you? If yes, what do you think of it now?

----------


## yankees1

I used one a number of years ago but not now. The way I hold my mandolin I didn't notice any increase in volume with the tone guard. Plus, there is more of a chance to scratch the mandolin so a no go for me ! Others swear by it however !

----------


## Steve Ostrander

I have one on my Breedlove. It does make it louder. Not WAY louder, but noticeably louder. BTW, it fits in its Breedlove case with the TG on the back. Same with my F9 in it's Travelite case.

----------


## B381

I know mine works.....did the "corner test".....lol

----------


## Dave Greenspoon

Yes. Both the Rigel and Eastman 515 wear one at all times, along with a Longhollow Softy strap. The 515 also sports a McClung OTP arm rest between the 'Gard and the wood.

----------


## MandoRock65

It works on my Flatiron! It made quite a noticeable difference in volume for me. Thanks to TG peeps!

GJ Project

----------


## Br1ck

This is one of those things that depend entirely on how you hold a mandolin, and how much beer you have consumed.

If there is a lot of back surface resting on your beer inhanced stomach, it will make quite a difference.

----------

Rick Jones

----------


## colorado_al

Short answer - Yes!
Long answer - not everyone needs or likes one, but most who have tried one use them all the time.

----------

George R. Lane

----------


## DHopkins

> Short answer - Yes!
> Long answer - not everyone needs or likes one, but most who have tried one use them all the time.


Good answer

----------

George R. Lane, 

Rick Jones

----------


## Rick Jones

> If there is a lot of back surface resting on your beer inhanced stomach, it will make quite a difference.


This no doubt explains the noticeable tonal improvement when I have the ToneGuard in place.

----------


## colorado_al

> This no doubt explains the noticeable tonal improvement when I have the ToneGuard in place.


When the situation calls for subdued playing, I find it useful to have a built in mandolin mute, honed by years of drinking. I also find it useful to have a tonegard for every other time.

----------

MediumMando5722, 

Rick Jones

----------


## mandroid

A lot better than damaging the varnish, holding the mandolin against the  Sweaty  T shirt,
 you may  be wearing..

 :Whistling:

----------


## yankees1

Had one and didn't like it it ! Probably by the way I hold my mandolin but I got just as much volume without it as with it !

----------

Tom Sanderson

----------


## Dave Martin

I like mine.

----------


## JeffD

If you already play with the back of the instrument away from your body, it won't make any difference.

----------

Timbofood, 

yankees1

----------


## vince f

I have a Flatiron A5, I am extremely skeptical of tone improvement gimmicks, but the Toneguard works as advertised. If you think of the instrument as a combination of vibrating pieces, it makes sense that dampening vibration with your belly would dampen the sound of the instrument. I do not agree with the notion that all that matters of the back plate is the REFLECTION of the sound back out to the front. The back has much more impact than that. it's ability to freely vibrate affects the tone in a notable way. You may notice some old timers (Including Bill Monroe when soloing) holding the mando away from their body with only the tail anchored on their chest. Before the toneguard, this is how people would free up the back to vibrate. 

The idea that it only affects the sound for the player makes little sense. Something that is resonating freely is going to have a different sound. It may be less noticeable the further away you are, it might be more noticeable with a close mic, and less noticeable with plate mounted pickup, but there will be some effect. 

Don't buy a knockoff. The real ones are not that expensive.

----------

bradeasley

----------


## MediumMando5722

Look at the list of people using them. Now email the guy that makes them and ask if he pays them anything. The answer should shed some light on whether they work or not.

----------


## Kevin Winn

Just got one for my 2000 Weber Bitterroot and it works splendidly.  Way worth the cost.

----------


## Tate Ferguson

If even the finest mandolin needs a Tone-gard to sound its best - and many on this thread say this is true - does this suggest that there is an inherent flaw in traditional mandolin design?  If I'm spending big $ on a mandolin, shouldn't I expect an instrument that does the job without additional hardware?  Could there exist a mandolin with traditional looks that needs no extra component to produce maximum volume and tone?

A fascinating discussion.

----------


## colorado_al

> If even the finest mandolin needs a Tone-gard to sound its best - and many on this thread say this is true - does this suggest that there is an inherent flaw in traditional mandolin design?  If I'm spending big $ on a mandolin, shouldn't I expect an instrument that does the job without additional hardware?  Could there exist a mandolin with traditional looks that needs no extra component to produce maximum volume and tone?
> 
> A fascinating discussion.


The tonegard allows the back of the mandolin to vibrate freely. It doesn't make your mandolin sound better than it inherently does, it prevents it from sounding worse from the back being muted by your body.

----------

B381, 

bradeasley, 

Folkmusician.com, 

Jesse Kinman, 

Rdeane

----------


## Jesse Kinman

> The tonegard allows the back of the mandolin to vibrate freely. It doesn't make your mandolin sound better than it inherently does, it prevents it from sounding worse from the back being muted by your body.


Tonegard explained in a nutshell, precise and clear!

----------


## Bob Buckingham

Does it work?  Yes.

----------


## Folkmusician.com

> The tonegard allows the back of the mandolin to vibrate freely. It doesn't make your mandolin sound better than it inherently does, it prevents it from sounding worse from the back being muted by your body.


Right!  Your mandolin will sound just as good if you hold it away from you while playing. Of course, few play that way, so the Tone-Gard works well.

----------


## DHopkins

Yes!  Worth every penny.

----------


## Rdeane

I'm a believer! Works great on my Collings MT2.

----------


## DHopkins

I think the general consensus is that it works.

----------


## RustyMadd

I put a regular sized Tone Gard on my Loar 520 and it immediately improved my tone when playing while standing. Went on stupidly easy. Worth every cent, I can now play very softly and yet tonefully. Don't even wait. Get one. It's worth it. Blessings

----------


## Steve Ostrander

You don’t have to use a Tonegard. You can accomplish the same thing by playing sitting down and holding the mandolin awY from your body. As for me, I play a lot of gigs while standing up, so it was worth the $$.

----------


## RustyMadd

> You don’t have to use a Tonegard. You can accomplish the same thing by playing sitting down and holding the mandolin awY from your body. As for me, I play a lot of gigs while standing up, so it was worth the $$.


Yeah, just try to work a single mic sitting down. Blessings

----------

DHopkins

----------


## Tom Sanderson

Buy one and decide for yourself. I have 2. I don’t care for them. For me it’s just extra baggage. Like I said, buy one and decide for yourself. If you like it, cool. If not, resell it.

----------


## Jimmybikes

Aint no way Im puttin Any tone guard on my Mando.
There ugly!

----------

Tom Sanderson

----------


## DHopkins

> Ain’t no way I’m puttin’ Any tone guard on my Mando.
> The’re ugly!


If that was a criteria, I'd wear a mask when I played.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

Bill Kammerzell, 

ccravens

----------


## Ron McMillan

From a new arrival to the Classifieds, and a very common remark there:

_There are some marks in the finish where the previous customer had a toneguard installed_

Even apart from its appearance and weight, that's enough to make me uninterested.

----------


## sblock

> From a new arrival to the Classifieds, and a very common remark there:
> 
> _There are some marks in the finish where the previous customer had a toneguard installed_
> 
> Even apart from its appearance and weight, that's enough to make me uninterested.


You have lost perspective, in my opinion. These tiny marks (which can often be buffed out, if desired) absolutely pale in comparison to the typical scratches, gouges, and other marks left on the backs of mandolins by shirt buttons, belt buckles, tieclips/necklaces, and the like.  The ToneGard protects against this type of "buckle rash"! I'd wager you there are a great many more mandolins with finish issues on their backs, and without ToneGards, then there are with finish issues associated with ToneGard prongs.  On top of all that, the newer white (silicone) bushings used on the ToneGard prongs are much gentler on finishes than than the black (butyl rubber) ones that were used a few years ago. Armrest attachments can also mar a finish in minor ways, let's not forget.  These types of marks are all nearly invisible and make no difference to the sound.  So I think this is a silly reason to object to ToneGards, all considered.  Many top players put ToneGards on Lloyd Loar-signed Gibson F5s, so that should tell you where they stand on this issue.

If you want to keep your mandolin pristine, just leave it in its case and don't take it out to play, where it can get scratched or damaged.   :Grin:

----------

DHopkins, 

treidm

----------


## George R. Lane

If you really want the answer then check out post #6 in this thread,  https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...20#post1682620.

----------


## Jimmybikes

I make up for my physical inadequacies by having a beautiful mandolin. I'm not going to ugly it up with a tone guard.

----------

yankees1

----------


## George R. Lane

> I make up for my physical inadequacies by having a beautiful mandolin. I'm not going to ugly it up with a tone guard.


Are you implying that anyone who uses a tone-gard has a physical inadequacy? That seems a little harsh to me, especially for someone new to the Café.

----------


## JEStanek

I think he's calling himself unattractive...  Not a blanket statement on ALL tone guard users. At least that's how I read it... self deprecating.

Jamie

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Jimmybikes

[QUOTE=JEStanek;1682698]I think he's calling himself unattractive...  Not a blanket statement on ALL tone guard users. At least that's how I read it... self deprecating.

Yes I meant it as a self depreciating joke. I would never call anyone unattractive. One of the great thing about this forum is people do disagree. If everyone agreed on all things mandolin there would be no forum.

Just because someone uses (or doesn't use) a tone guard, that doesn't make them any less of a person!

----------


## George R. Lane

Jimmybikes,

No offense taken. I am a 68 year old guy with a round belly and the Tone-Gard works for me. It is great when we can disagree and still be friends.

----------

colorado_al

----------


## Bill Kammerzell

> If that was a criteria, I'd wear a mask when I played.


One morning, after an entire day and evening of drunken revelry at Mardi Gras, I walked the streets of the French Quarter collecting discarded masks. I have enough to wear a different mask each time I play.

----------

Timbofood

----------


## DHopkins

I'm gettin' out of this one.  It's same responses every time the subject comes up.

----------

yankees1

----------


## LongBlackVeil

Ive found that they definitely work. Theres not really any debate about that. But sometimes its not a desirable effect. Some mandolins can end up being too bright. That contact between your body and the mandolin has a damping effect that actually sounds pretty good depending on the instrument. 

I had a weber yellowstone and a gibson a jr that both seemed to sound better without the gard. The ellis a5 i had seemed to benefit from the extra volume and brightness, it was already complex enough

----------

David Lewis

----------


## RFMando

I certainly love my toneguard.... now a tonguard does that add sustain?!

----------


## colorado_al

> I'm gettin' out of this one.  It's same responses every time the subject comes up.


In for a penny, in for a pound.

----------


## David Lewis

I really enjoy reading the Toneguard debates. I'll probably never get one, but only because I don't have the type of income that can justify it (I'd probably just buy another 1/2 a Mando or so...) But it's like expensive overdrive pedals, or x-Brand bronze strings (as opposed to Y-brand bronze strings). If you feel it makes a difference, it does. Response is a lot of tone. 

How many of us could really play Bill Monroe's mandolin and have it sound like Bill? But I bet a lot of us (me included) would say 'yes, a definite improvement in my tone (objective) and I sound exactly like Bill (less objective - not quite subjective). 

A prominent mandolinist once told me they weren't very good, they didn't improve the sound and why have one?  For those of you who have one and love it, I honestly and sincerely believe you. 

The quest for tone goes on and on... 

(sarcasm and critical free post)

----------


## Frankdolin

Has anyone using a tone guard in a performance ever had any listener comment that "they" thought there was any improvement in the "tone" or in any way helpful to their listening experience ?

----------


## JeffD

Most of the time, in my experience, the audience is kind of oblivious to subtle tone qualities. At least in my experience. In small jams and ensembles I can hear the difference, other people playing with me can hear the difference and I assume the audience or those listening can hear the difference. 

Nobody comes up to me to say anything about it. Mostly I hear "that's a mandolin, right?" or something similar.

----------

Chuck Leyda

----------


## Jeff Mando

Bill never used one, but Chris does.......so........both sound great to me!

Did I leave anyone out?  :Grin:

----------


## Chuck Leyda

> Most of the time, in my experience, the audience is kind of oblivious to subtle tone qualities. At least in my experience. In small jams and ensembles I can hear the difference, other people playing with me can hear the difference and I assume the audience or those listening can hear the difference. 
> 
> Nobody comes up to me to say anything about it. Mostly I hear "that's a mandolin, right?" or something similar.


True.  A typical band conversation:
Me:  Which pick do you like?
Band:  Don't care they both sound fine.

Me:  Should I play Bouzouki, Octave or standard mandolin on this song?
Band:  Don't care. 

Me: Do you like the guitar bodied octave or the A shaped octave mandolin?
Band:  Don't care.  They both sound fine.

I have a sneaking suspicion as to what the answer might be if I asked about the tonegard.

----------

Drew Streip

----------


## treidm

Here are a few users....

Ricky Skaggs
Chris Thile
David Grisman
John Reischman
And they actually use them and play out with them
And on a Loar   :Disbelief: 
Well, what would they know, anyway...
Just Sayin'
 :Grin:

----------

MikeEdgerton, 

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## V70416

The recent viddy with Ricky playing Bill's Loar with a genuine Toneguard on it should shine a whole nother light
on the subject.

----------


## Bill McCall

> Here are a few users....
> 
> Ricky Skaggs
> Chris Thile
> David Grisman
> John Reischman
> And they actually use them and play out with them
> And on a Loar  
> Well, what would they know, anyway...
> Just Sayin'


Much bigger list of players without them including:

Alan Bibey
Tom Rozum
Ronnie McCoury (all on Loars)

with 

Adam Steffey
Sierra Hull
Nathan Livers
and too many others to list not using them.

Just shows, YMMV

----------


## DHopkins

> Much bigger list of players without them including:
> 
> Alan Bibey
> Tom Rozum
> Ronnie McCoury (all on Loars)
> 
> with 
> 
> Adam Steffey
> ...


So, maybe they don't know what they're missing???   :Smile: 


(I thought unsubscribed but apparently it didn't take.  Maybe I'll just hang around.)

----------


## Bill McCall

> So, maybe they don't know what they're missing???


Maybe they do :Smile:

----------


## sblock

Isn't this getting silly?  You guys seem to have resorted to trading lists of great players who do and don't use ToneGards.  What does that demonstrate? The fact that a good many of the top players like and use ToneGard suggests to me that they find these devices to be worthwhile (they're not paid endorsers).  The fact that not every great player uses a ToneGard suggests to me that it is not an indispensable item for making music on the mandolin.  

After all:  all it does is keep your mandolin back away from getting damped by contact with your belly.  If you naturally play in a position that holds the back well away from your belly, or if your belly is pretty flat, then you obviously don't really need it. Even if you make belly contact when you play, if you don't care that the sound gets damped by this contact (say, you don' need/want the extra volume, or you play amplified), then you don't need it.   If the small bit of extra weight bothers you, or if you are concerned about the tiny marks it might (or might not) leave, then you might not want it.  

But if it makes an audible improvement -- and to me, it surely does (Alas, I've a developed a belly in my older years...) -- then that is a good reason to use it.  My mandolin sounds much louder and clearer when I play standing up with the ToneGard in place. And I can hear my own playing better while playing seated.  So I like what it does to the sound. And so do lots of other folks.  So we use the ToneGard.

Love it or hate it, it may not be for everyone.  But for those whom it helps, it helps significantly. Worth it to us?  _Definitely!_ Worth it to you? Maybe. Maybe not.

----------

ccravens, 

George R. Lane, 

Kevin Winn, 

soliver

----------


## MikeEdgerton

It is probably the only mandolin gizmo I recommend, and I do recommend them. Don't like them? Cool. Haven't tried one, you should.

And by the way, as far as I know Bill Monroe never used one. If that's reason enough for you not doing it I'm good with that too. I still think they are an excellent addition. If you're built anywhere near the way I am it will help you out.

----------

B381, 

ccravens, 

DHopkins, 

George R. Lane, 

Kevin Winn, 

Rick Jones

----------


## George R. Lane

Mike,

Thanks, well said.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

I'm not much into lists but some folks might want to visit *this* page. I see some names there that are appearing above.

----------

treidm

----------


## soliver

Well said sblock

----------


## Bernie Daniel

Tone guards and similar products (e.g., tone enhancers) do seem to work -- the question is are they worth the effort and bother?  After a few years of owning several of them I decided they were not worth the bother and sold them. Never looked back.  As far as physical condition goes I prefer working out in the gym every day -- but yes that's a bother too!  :Frown:

----------


## Jeff Mando

We have discussed the way Monroe held his mandolin before on this forum.  Very few players today hold a mandolin they way he did while performing.  First, his strap is only over his right shoulder and NOT over his head and back like most people wear a strap.  This allows for the mandolin to pivot away from the body as his normal playing position -- keeping the belly muting to a minimum.  More than likely he heard how the body can dampen the sound early on and figured out his own solution, IMHO.

----------


## sblock

> We have discussed the way Monroe held his mandolin before on this forum.  Very few players today hold a mandolin they way he did while performing.  First, his strap is only over his right shoulder and NOT over his head and back like most people wear a strap.  This allows for the mandolin to pivot away from the body as his normal playing position -- keeping the belly muting to a minimum.  More than likely he heard how the body can dampen the sound early on and figured out his own solution, IMHO.


Err, that's not quite the full story.  The main reason Bill Monroe wore a strap over his right shoulder only, and not over his head, is that he and the Bluegrass Boys wore large Stetson hats!  A strap worn around the head won't go easily over that wide hat brim, forcing removal of the hat every time to get the instrument on and off.  A strap worn over the right shoulder allowed him to keep his hat on at all times, and also to exchange instruments rather easily (he sometimes switched to a second mandolin set up with "Get Up John" tuning).  

Also, if you look at videos of Bill Monroe playing, you'll see that he frequently did have his mandolin back held close against his body.  In fact, he played with it against his body most of the time!  He only tended to push it away for some solos, and especially when he was trying to reach out to work a single microphone, as they so often did back in the day.  

Earl Scruggs used the very same strap arrangement with his banjo, incidentally, as did many other Bluegrass Boys. And for the same reason:  the Stetson hat.  Volume control is not an issue on the 5-string!   :Laughing: 

This has been documented in past interviews with these musicians.

----------


## treidm

> I'm not much into lists but some folks might want to visit *this* page. I see some names there that are appearing above.


Awesome list, thanks....

Yep, some on his don't fly list, actually DO have tickets for the flight **  :Grin:

----------


## Jeff Mando

Not sure, I buy the Stetson hat theory.........you can undo your strap at the endpin then reattach it and leave your hat on -- very simple.  OR, you can take your hat off for two seconds, put on your mandolin, then put your hat back on -- at the end of your gig simply reverse the process.  You are out four seconds, no biggee, as far as I can see........

Freddie King wore his strap that way didn't even wear a hat! (or a tonegard!)

And, you're right, it's getting silly, but that is what we do here -- talk about a bunch of small details that brings enjoyment to our hobby, hopefully.  So, it is a worthwhile goal even if most of this stuff has already been talked to death, IMHO.

----------


## sblock

> Not sure, I buy the Stetson hat theory.........you can undo your strap at the endpin then reattach it and leave your hat on -- very simple.  OR, you can take your hat off for two seconds, put on your mandolin, then put your hat back on -- at the end of your gig simply reverse the process.  You are out four seconds, no biggee, as far as I can see........
> 
> Freddie King wore his strap that way didn't even wear a hat! (or a tonegard!)
> 
> And, you're right, it's getting silly, but that is what we do here -- talk about a bunch of small details that brings enjoyment to our hobby, hopefully.  So, it is a worthwhile goal even if most of this stuff has already been talked to death, IMHO.


Except this not some theory, and no one is asking you to "buy it." Earl and Bill supplied this as a _reason_ when they were asked why they wore their straps over one shoulder. This is not based on some speculation on my part; I remember reading it years ago in interviews.  I'm sure there are plenty of former Bluegrass Boys who can confirm this. And many bluegrass musicians copied this way of using the strap.

----------


## Mark Wilson

On a side note, I've bought 2 of these used in fair condition, where the paint had chipped off, and missing felt.  I was able to referb both to like new condition.  The fellow who makes them sells the felt and hose pieces.  If you still have the original black tubing - the replacement tubing (like on the newer ones) works better imo.  The original design have the felt body protectors held onto frame by pieces of slit black tubing(removable) and the body grip arms were shorter.  I really prefer the original design but I can see where the newer model would be better for some.

They work as advertised imo.

----------


## pops1

I had two, have one now. They definitely work for the player, not so sure for someone away. A couple things that I did notice, if playing with a pickup, more chance for feedback. If playing in an air conditioned room the tone guard holds the mandolin away from your warm body leaving an air space and not letting the mandolin warm up on the back while cool on the front. Stays in tune better in my opinion. Not using one for the last few months, but still keeping one around.

----------

Mark Wilson

----------


## David Lewis

> Not sure, I buy the Stetson hat theory.........you can undo your strap at the endpin then reattach it and leave your hat on -- very simple.  OR, you can take your hat off for two seconds, put on your mandolin, then put your hat back on -- at the end of your gig simply reverse the process.  You are out four seconds, no biggee, as far as I can see........
> 
> Freddie King wore his strap that way didn't even wear a hat! (or a tonegard!)
> 
> And, you're right, it's getting silly, but that is what we do here -- talk about a bunch of small details that brings enjoyment to our hobby, hopefully.  So, it is a worthwhile goal even if most of this stuff has already been talked to death, IMHO.


Couple of small points - 1) you can’t undo a banjo strap easily, and2) they were loath to take their hats off because they had 'bluegrass hair' - long hair that was tucked up under their hats and would fall out when hat was removed. 

I don’t actually doubt tha the tone was important but I think that was a side product  rather than the aim

----------


## Jeff Mando

Aw shucks, fellas!  Just having a little fun.  I will, however, require full documentation and a bibliography for those interviews, if you don't mind.....you can post them here, if you want.......... :Disbelief: 

I like the "Bluegrass Hair" theory, but honestly something as great as Bluegrass Hair deserves its own thread or maybe even website.  :Cool: 

Thanks to the magic of youtube, you can see Monroe raise his mandolin high to the mic for his solo, much like Johnny Cash did later -- possibly in tribute to Monroe, who knows?  A lot of the rockabilly guys did Monroe covers -- Elvis did Blue Moon of Kentucky, Ronnie Self did Rocky Road Blues, Carl Perkins spoke of Monroe being an influence.  And again, back to the hair -- I just realized Bluegrass Hair is just a less greasy version of Rockabilly Hair!  We may be on the verge of a breakthrough in musical research......all thanks to this forum.   :Mandosmiley: 

Easy to find, hatless photos of Bill and Charlie Monroe with Bill wearing his strap this way, pre-Bluegrass Boys.......hmmm.  :Popcorn:  :Cow:  :Coffee:  :Sleepy: 

None of those guys used a tonegard to my knowledge and still made great music, IMHO.  Which takes nothing away from all those who use one and ALSO make great music!

----------

sblock

----------


## treidm

What year did tone-gard come to market?

----------


## David Lewis

https://bluegrasstoday.com/ricky-ska...luegrass-hair/

Bluegrass hair.

And, not to be too smart-alecky, the mike technique is because they didn't have pickups....

----------


## B381

> https://bluegrasstoday.com/ricky-ska...luegrass-hair/
> 
> Bluegrass hair.
> 
> And, not to be too smart-alecky, the mike technique is because they didn't have pickups....






> Country music has really, really lost its identity. It’s tried to be something that it’s not for so long now, it doesn’t know what it’s supposed to be. It’s really lost its way. There’s groups out there that are making good-sounding records but they have such a rock influence or such a pop influence. It’s too rock to be country or too country to be rock. It’s just… somewhere, hanging in the balance.


Been saying this for a long time......

----------


## DHopkins

> Been saying this for a long time......


I think it was one of the Geezinslaw Brothers who first said it: "Nowadays, country music is just poor rock and roll."

----------

B381

----------


## pops1

> https://bluegrasstoday.com/ricky-ska...luegrass-hair/
> 
> Bluegrass hair..


We just called it "hat hair"

----------


## B381

Very few even actually "play" music anymore either.  But, they do fake it and fool the pop generation well.

----------


## RustyMadd

> Aint no way Im puttin Any tone guard on my Mando.
> There ugly!


Not nearly as ugly as the back of your baby can end up without the protection afforded, not to mention the tonal boon. 
Blessings

----------


## Jeff Mando

You can buy a brand new sofa and cover it with slip covers, so 20 years from now the next owner will get a mint condition sofa! (that you never got to enjoy.....or see!)

----------


## LongBlackVeil

> Not nearly as ugly as the back of your baby can end up without the protection afforded, not to mention the tonal boon. 
> Blessings


bah. Play wear is beautiful.

----------


## DHopkins

> You can buy a brand new sofa and cover it with slip covers, so 20 years from now the next owner will get a mint condition sofa! (that you never got to enjoy.....or see!)


If I played my sofa, that might be a meaningful analogy.   :Smile:

----------

Jeff Mando, 

treidm

----------


## George R. Lane

This thread has become a little crazy. You are now comparing a tone-gard to a baby's butt. Come on. Moderators, I think this thread needs to be closed.

----------


## ccravens

> This thread has become a little crazy. You are now comparing a tone-gard to a baby's butt. Come on. Moderators, I think this thread needs to be closed.


Dude..relax..why does it matter to you?  Let people post what they want. If you don't approve, just move on..

----------

j. condino, 

treidm

----------


## Jeff Mando

> If I played my sofa, that might be a meaningful analogy.


Don't worry, I've got a bunch of 'em!  The main thing I find off-putting is that to get the most out of my mega-dollar mandolin, I have to buy a $75 gadget to clip on the back of it.  Now, I live in the South, so I see a lot of brand new Cadillacs with giant aftermarket chrome rims on them.  I know those rims bring their owners a great deal of pride, even though I think they look ridiculous.  I also know that Cadillac had their best engineers design the factory rims that come with the car for the best possible performance...........

am I getting close?

An Armani suit with a K-mart bowtie?

For the older members.......to me it resembles a Rube Goldberg solution to a perceived problem.....for the younger members, Google him.....

But, again, why should I take away somebody's fun.......... :Mandosmiley:

----------


## colorado_al

> Don't worry, I've got a bunch of 'em!  The main thing I find off-putting is that to get the most out of my mega-dollar mandolin, I have to buy a $75 gadget to clip on the back of it.  Now, I live in the South, so I see a lot of brand new Cadillacs with giant aftermarket chrome rims on them.  I know those rims bring their owners a great deal of pride, even though I think they look ridiculous.  I also know that Cadillac had their best engineers design the factory rims that come with the car for the best possible performance...........
> 
> am I getting close?
> 
> An Armani suit with a K-mart bowtie?
> 
> For the older members.......to me it resembles a Rube Goldberg solution to a perceived problem.....for the younger members, Google him.....
> 
> But, again, why should I take away somebody's fun..........


I think you're lucky that only $75 makes your $3000 mandolin sound like a million bucks!
Your analogy falls flat because fancy car rims are just for looks, not performance. The tonegard is exactly the opposite - better performance, not looks.

----------

George R. Lane, 

Jeff Mando, 

LongBlackVeil, 

MikeEdgerton, 

treidm

----------


## George R. Lane

> Dude..relax..why does it matter to you?  Let people post what they want. If you don't approve, just move on..


The reason I care is this forum was designed to give good and informative information about the subject at hand. This 3rd grade humor is not needed and should be left to your twitter accounts. We do a disservice to the OP when the comments go off topic. Lets be helpful, not hurtful.

----------


## treidm

I personally don't mind a little humor every now and then, to lighten it up
Tons of sarcasm and patronizing talk is done. I would rather they removed that and left a little humor... :Smile: 

Still wondering, does anyone know what year Tone-Gard first came to market?

----------


## DHopkins

i986, I think.

----------

treidm

----------


## Br1ck

A tone guard will make a mandolin whose player holds it so 70% of the back surface rests against the body sound louder and more resonant 100% of the time, and a mandolin held mostly away from the body will sound no different 100% of the time.

Weather you like your mandolin's sound dampened by your body is entirely up to you.

Plus, if you have a case a mandolin with a toneguard will fit in, it will leave it's imprint in the lining. My MK will never have one, though it shows the most benefit. Just not going to spend the money on my beater. My Silverangel has had one for a while and its not going anywhere. Arches F probably will if it will fit in it's case. Gibson A 1 will never have one because, well, that would just be wrong.

There, 171 opinions. It only matters that mine is correct.

----------

George R. Lane

----------


## DHopkins

171 entries here and it boils down to:  "Yes, it does" or "No, it doesn't."  ♫

And, Brick, you're wrong.  MY opinion is right.  :Smile:

----------


## William Smith

My wife got me a new Tone Guard for Christmas, it says not to use on a soft Varnish finish but I want to use it on my 24 Loar F-5? I know I seen Loar owners who have them on theirs? What do ya'll recommend? Maybe wrap the clear vinyl/rubber tubes with cloth? I just don't want to mess up the finish? I've had a tone guard on my one old F-7 conversion for 10 years or more and you can tell where the rubber tubes were when you take it off? I'm not too worried well at all with the 7 but the Loar-YES :Whistling:

----------


## yankees1

> My wife got me a new Tone Guard for Christmas, it says not to use on a soft Varnish finish but I want to use it on my 24 Loar F-5? I know I seen Loar owners who have them on theirs? What do ya'll recommend? Maybe wrap the clear vinyl/rubber tubes with cloth? I just don't want to mess up the finish? I've had a tone guard on my one old F-7 conversion for 10 years or more and you can tell where the rubber tubes were when you take it off? I'm not too worried well at all with the 7 but the Loar-YES


When I use to have one many years ago I wrapped the rubber covered prongs with microfiber cloth pieces and this did help. However, the way I held/hold my mandolin the tonguard did not increase volume from my mandolin.

----------

William Smith

----------


## j. condino

Tone guards are a non-athletic solution for little tiny instrument resting on top of a giant belly....!!!

----------

William Smith, 

yankees1

----------


## Bill McCall

Bill didn’t need one, why should you?

----------

j. condino

----------


## sblock

> When I use to have one many years ago I wrapped the rubber covered prongs with microfiber cloth pieces and this did help. However, the way I held/hold my mandolin the tonguard did not increase volume from my mandolin.


Years ago, the ToneGards used a type of black synthetic rubber hose to protect the prongs. No longer.  ToneGards today use platinum-cure silicone tubing. This tubing is chemically much more inert, and unlikely to interact with your finish. That said, a varnish finish that's still slightly soft (not fully cured) can be mechanically displaced by the prong pressure, resulting in minor dents. Older varnish finishes do not pose this problem.  And yes, quite a few famous players have used ToneGards on their 1922-1924 Loars. Adding any accessory whatsoever -- be it a pickguard, an armrest, a ToneGard, a truss rod cover, etc. -- has the potential to mar the finish in tiny places, in principle, but accessories are obviously designed to minimize that.  That said, you should realize that FAILURE to add an accessory that protects the mandolin in various ways, like a pickguard or ToneGard, can also result in the finish being damaged, too!    :Laughing:   Many more expensive mandolins have been damaged on the front by picks, and on the backs by "buckle rash," than have been damaged by installing pickguards and ToneGards. Think about it.

----------

Rick Jones, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

seankeegan, 

William Smith

----------


## JeffD

> Tone guards are a non-athletic solution for little tiny instrument resting on top of a giant belly....!!!



bingo  :Laughing:

----------

Hubs, 

j. condino

----------


## JeffD

> Bill didn’t need one, why should you?


Cuz I am not Bill.

----------

David Lewis, 

DHopkins, 

Kevin Winn, 

Rick Jones

----------


## Br1ck

Toneguards don't require a strict food regimen, nor a large daily dose of exercise. Thus their popularity.

I received my second for Christmas. They do what they do very well. Need one? That's your call. I like them.

----------


## prairieschooner

> my Craft beer investment


I'm going to use this one!

----------


## seankeegan

> Years ago, the ToneGards used a type of black synthetic rubber hose to protect the prongs. No longer.  ToneGards today use platinum-cure silicone tubing. This tubing is chemically much more inert, and unlikely to interact with your finish. That said, a varnish finish that's still slightly soft (not fully cured) can be mechanically displaced by the prong pressure, resulting in minor dents. Older varnish finishes do not pose this problem.  And yes, quite a few famous players have used ToneGards on their 1922-1924 Loars. Adding any accessory whatsoever -- be it a pickguard, an armrest, a ToneGard, a truss rod cover, etc. -- has the potential to mar the finish in tiny places, in principle, but accessories are obviously designed to minimize that.  That said, you should realize that FAILURE to add an accessory that protects the mandolin in various ways, like a pickguard or ToneGard, can also result in the finish being damaged, too!     Many more expensive mandolins have been damaged on the front by picks, and on the backs by "buckle rash," than have been damaged by installing pickguards and ToneGards. Think about it.


Thanks for this info! I always wondered why the tonegard on Reischman's mandolin had black rubber instead of the clear tubing I have on my 3. You can see it clearly at about 1.30 on this video:

https://youtu.be/AvB2PxEsGbM

In my humble opinion, assuming your mandolin is properly set up, a tonegard is the best $75 you can spend on it. Plus Tony is an absolute gentleman; fantastic customer service.

----------

colorado_al, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

sblock

----------


## Bill McCall

Never seen one on a bowlback, but of course. They are so much more powerful than A’s and F models

----------


## pops1

I feel the toneguard makes more of a difference to the player than to some one seated across the room. I used one for a few years, but quit some time ago and don't notice a difference for me, so I will keep it around, but haven't been using it.

----------

Bob Buckingham

----------


## William Smith

Ok I heard back from the owner Tony Piers and he said the new stuff isn't clear plastic its some very expensive high grade medical tubing "tygon 3350 platinum cured" and way better than the old stuff he used so he said many Loar owners use with no worry. I will also.

----------


## Johnny60

My son recently got a new Eastman 305 - great instrument, with a really comfy neck, newer cast tailpiece and a really punchy tone.  Lovely instrument - and not just “for the money”.  

Knowing how good a TG is on my Northfield F5S, we got him a Tone-Gard for Christmas.  He’s tall and slim, with no “belly” to speak of.  The TG has, as expected, delivered an increase in volume, bass, sustain and overall “oomph”.  I can’t recommend Tone-Gards highly enough.  

Cheers

Johnny

----------

colorado_al, 

Rick Jones

----------


## Bob Buckingham

The downside of  a tone guard is what it does to the finish, especially a varnish finish.  I used to think they work and they do effectively remove the instrument from the body, but at what cost?  Builders I talk to hate them for what they do to their playable art.

----------

yankees1

----------


## William Smith

> The downside of  a tone guard is what it does to the finish, especially a varnish finish.  I used to think they work and they do effectively remove the instrument from the body, but at what cost?  Builders I talk to hate them for what they do to their playable art.


 See my above post, I talked to the owner and the new ones have a platinum cured clear tygon 3350 medical grade very expensive tubing. And he said Loar owners have been using them, Dawg, John Reischman, Chris Thile and more! I'm going to use my new one my wife gave me for Christmas on my 24 Loar and we'll see as my finish is perfect on that old thing? So time will tell!

----------


## DHopkins

I think a large number of the anti-Tonegard crowd are simply purists.  If it didn't come on the first mandolin ever made, it shouldn't be used now.  These are some of the same people who say no real picker should ever use a capo.  (I wonder if Chris Thile, Josh Williams, Doc Watson or Sierra Hull ever said it.)

If you bought your mandolin based solely on looks then, no, you don't need a Tone-Gard.  If you're concerned about the sound that comes out of your mandolin, perhaps a Tone-Gard will help you.   I have one on my Breedlove Legacy (my primary mandolin) because I believe it makes a difference in the tone.  I'm not built like a sumo wrestler but I still play with the mandolin up against my stomach and I believe isolating the back of the mandolin allows more sound to be produced.  

Perhaps it's subjective.  Which pick is better?  Which strings are better? And, of course, which mandolin is better?  If you ask 50 people about any one of those things, you'll get at least 55 (?) different opinions.  We all know that opinions are like, well, you know.  Anyway, I have no plans to remove my Tone-Gard.

----------

Rick Jones, 

William Smith

----------


## sblock

> The downside of  a tone guard is what it does to the finish, especially a varnish finish.  I used to think they work and they do effectively remove the instrument from the body, but at what cost?  Builders I talk to hate them for what they do to their playable art.


At what cost, you ask?  _Well, at no cost!_  My ToneGards have never damaged the finish on either of the two varnish-finished mandolins that I own. No damage whatsoever.  In fact, the finish on the headstock of one of them was slightly marred by an electronic tuner I once placed there -- but the ToneGard did nothing.  Nor has a ToneGard ever hurt the finish on a nitrocellulose lacquer-finished mandolin of mine, either.  But I _have_ seen pressure from the prongs of ToneGard make a tiny dent in the soft varnish finish of another mandolin that a friend of mine owned.  This dent was easily buffed out, but it did make a small mark.  Also, if you take the ToneGard on and off constantly, which you're really not supposed to do, you risk abrading the sides a bit.  This was more of a problem in the old days with the black butyl-rubber hose that was used on the prongs. No more. The newer platinum-cured silicone tuning is chemically inert and quite slippery; it is unlikely to react with any finish or mar it while being slipped on or off. Still, no accessory you place on a mandolin is risk-free.  The same holds for armrests, tailpieces, and other stuff.

Anyway, I suspect your information is out-dated.  And who are these mysterious "builders" you get advice from, who make "playable art?"   Is their information equally out-dated?

Finally, the ToneGard protects the back of your mandolin from minor scratches due to buttons, zippers, and belt buckles.  I would wage you that on balance, ToneGards have done more to prevent scratches on mandolins than caused them!

Finally, it seems ironic to me that some of the very same people who worry about small scratches on the sides from ToneGard prongs are ones who routinely remove the pickguards from their mandolins, and proceed to develop scratches on the tops, either from flatpicks or from their fingers being planted.  Can you spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y?   :Disbelief:

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William Smith

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## yankees1

Time and  use will tell ! Only way to know is to try it ! I did and I could not tell any difference in volume/loudness with the ToneGard installed. I wrapped the prongs that make contact with the mandolin body with micro-fiber material and no marks on finish was observed.  I can see where the ToneGard would protect the back from scratches however. I finally sold the ToneGard as when I hold my mandolin I do hold it away from my belly and I do not wear any buttons or material that could scratch the back. I would use a ToneGard if I could hear any more volume however ! Just not for me !

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## Gina Willis

I just got a ToneGard for Christmas and I'm amazed at the more pleasant and resonant tone it seems to have drawn from my "The Loar" 520-VS. I noticed it the moment after I put it on and started playing. And this was sitting down, where my body was already in just the minimal "correct" contact with the instrument in the right places (i.e., no belly issue). 

I don't know why ToneGard has this effect, but it does. Maybe someone with acoustic engineering expertise could explain it. I'm thinking there's something about the way the wires contact the back of the mandolin and perhaps conduct or vibrate with it may do something, or maybe just the added mass to the body of the instrument beefs up the sound. No idea.

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## yankees1

> I just got a ToneGard for Christmas and I'm amazed at the more pleasant and resonant tone it seems to have drawn from my "The Loar" 520-VS. I noticed it the moment after I put it on and started playing. And this was sitting down, where my body was already in just the minimal "correct" contact with the instrument in the right places (i.e., no belly issue). 
> 
> I don't know why ToneGard has this effect, but it does. Maybe someone with acoustic engineering expertise could explain it. I'm thinking there's something about the way the wires contact the back of the mandolin and perhaps conduct or vibrate with it may do something, or maybe just the added mass to the body of the instrument beefs up the sound. No idea.


Different players have different results just as they do with different mandolins, picks, etc !

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## Jeff Mando

"platinum cured medical grade tubing......."

"maybe someone with acoustic engineering expertise could explain it......"

DUDE, it's a bracket!  Like a kick-stand on a bicycle......

As always, THANKS to all on this forum for starting the new year off with a good chuckle!  :Laughing: 

And, sure, if a $75 bracket and a $35 pick add to your playing pleasure -- more power to ya!

(me, I'm going to stick with my lucky polka-dot socks!  :Grin: )

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## yankees1

> "platinum cured medical grade tubing......."
> 
> "maybe someone with acoustic engineering expertise could explain it......"
> 
> DUDE, it's a bracket!  Like a kick-stand on a bicycle......
> 
> As always, THANKS to all on this forum for starting the new year off with a good chuckle! 
> 
> And, sure, if a $75 bracket and a $35 pick add to your playing pleasure -- more power to ya!
> ...


   And opinions are like a--holes, everyone has one !  :Smile:

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## dhergert

> My wife got me a new Tone Guard for Christmas, it says not to use on a soft Varnish finish but I want to use it on my 24 Loar F-5? I know I seen Loar owners who have them on theirs? What do ya'll recommend? Maybe wrap the clear vinyl/rubber tubes with cloth? I just don't want to mess up the finish? I've had a tone guard on my one old F-7 conversion for 10 years or more and you can tell where the rubber tubes were when you take it off? I'm not too worried well at all with the 7 but the Loar-YES





> Ok I heard back from the owner Tony Piers and he said the new stuff isn't clear plastic its some very expensive high grade medical tubing "tygon 3350 platinum cured" and way better than the old stuff he used so he said many Loar owners use with no worry. I will also.


Very good question...

I had also heard about the newer plastic tubing working better, that's what my ToneGards have on them, however I do not have a varnished mandolin (or a Loar for that matter  :Grin: )...

I'd still suggest talking to Dave Harvey about this...  IF anyone would know if there is a way to use a ToneGard on a Loar safely, he would.

Congratulations on just having this kind of problem to solve!  :Mandosmiley:

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## Br1ck

Unlike a Blue Chip pick where you have to buy to try, you can easily test to see if a toneguard is for you. Just stand up with a strap and hang your mandolin in space. Strum a chord, now stand straight with the mandolin against you and strum. Is the out in space a tone to die for, obviously better in every way? Buy one. No? Then don't.

I can see someone with a lively resonant mandolin wanting to dampen it some. It's up to you.

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## sblock

> I can see someone with a lively resonant mandolin wanting to dampen it some. It's up to you.


Is this just a hypothetical musing?  Writing for myself, I have never, _ever_ come across any mandolin player who was seeking to dampen his own instrument, on the grounds that it was somehow "too lively"!  

Or course, I have come across _other musicians_ whose instruments I would have dearly loved to dampen (!), but that's a another topic entirely!  LOL.   :Laughing:

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j. condino

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## Don Grieser

I don't know if anyone has said it yet, but yes, they help a ton.

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## Br1ck

Wouldn't it be great to have a devise you could engage at a jam so you could hear yourself but no one else could? Then by the fourth go around you could throw the switch and be heard.

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## Bill Findley

I’ve had one on my KM 1500 for years — no marks at all on the finish. Does what it says..

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## Bill Findley

Also, just watched Mandolin Mondays #159, and David has one on his Apitius. (Also on his mandolin.) 

BYW, he compares three D’Add. string types on this session. As usual, I couldn’t hear any difference, but he describes the differences he hears.

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## Hubs

Though my mandolin did cost much more than my guitar, it is significantly smaller. Now, with the Tone Gard, at least the weight comes a little closer.  :Whistling:

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Bill Findley

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## Bill Findley

Yes, that correlates nicely.

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## Lord of the Badgers

Yep. Totally works but much more so on my f5 compared to my a5. With the f I can clearly demonstrate the difference not only to myself but everyone else that's listening. I showed it to my cynical band mates and they stopped being cynical. 
One other thing it does... I don't get a mandolin sized sweat patch on my shirt at hot gigs...

I have a case that fits it on. It's a cheap as chips case from hobgoblin (UK music store). I'll see if I can find out for those curious.

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## GuidoMandolin

Ok, new member to the forum and new to the Mandolin, having bought a Loar LM 310F back in October ...after much consideration and reading online reviews I purchased a ToneGard. As a matter of fact, Just arrived in the mail today!  But I have high hopes that it will work for me as it was designed, so time will tell.

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## Bill Findley

Mine stays on the mando when it’s in the Superior case. Snug fit, but no problem really.

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## seankeegan

Seems Reischman changed gard, or maybe just the tubing. Looks like the modern silicone tubing in this recent video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0fmT-KOd7w

"quote: Thanks for this info! I always wondered why the tonegard on Reischman's mandolin had black rubber instead of the clear tubing I have on my 3. You can see it clearly at about 1.30 on this video:

https://youtu.be/AvB2PxEsGbM

In my humble opinion, assuming your mandolin is properly set up, a tonegard is the best $75 you can spend on it. Plus Tony is an absolute gentleman; fantastic customer service."

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## dhergert

I've been musing about this for quite some time, so I'll bring it up here...

I think there is an additional tone effect to the ToneGard that we usually don't discuss, just as there is a tone effect for an F-style vs. an A-style. or really for anything else that you attach to a mandolin (or any other instrument)...  That being added mass.  

We usually talk about the size of the vibrating soundboard surface related to sound, but we almost never approach the subject of mass.  It does have an effect on tone and volume.  Whether that effect is desirable or not is pretty subjective, but the effect is there.

Most people estimate that the human ear cannot discern less than a 10% difference in sound.  Perhaps that's the reason mass isn't usually discussed, or maybe it's just too hard to quantify. But as a part of the total instrument, mass differences in similar instruments do have to have some effect on sound.

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## Lord of the Badgers

yep brings out more bass & mid in my f5

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dhergert

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## Tom Sanderson

> I've been musing about this for quite some time, so I'll bring it up here...
> 
> I think there is an additional tone effect to the ToneGard that we usually don't discuss, just as there is a tone effect for an F-style vs. an A-style. or really for anything else that you attach to a mandolin (or any other instrument)...  That being added mass.  
> 
> We usually talk about the size of the vibrating soundboard surface related to tone, but we almost never approach the subject of mass.  It does have an effect on tone and volume.  Whether that effect is desirable or not is pretty subjective, but the effect is there.
> 
> Most people estimate that the human ear cannot discern less than a 10% difference in sound.  Perhaps that's the reason mass isn't usually discussed, or maybe it's just too hard to quantify. But as a part of the total instrument, mass differences in similar instruments do have to have some effect on sound.



Totally agree

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dhergert

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## Ranger Bob

Much has already been said about Tone Gards.  But, I'll chime in anyway.  I have had several Tone Gards on mandolins I have had -- both F and A models.  It has always made a difference.  I have to say, though, that I have not seen a more dramatic difference than when I just put a Rigel Gard on my recently purchased Rigel G5.  It took a Wow! sounding mandolin to a WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! sounding mandolin.  I won't leave home without it.

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## Greg P. Stone

First I've heard of this and I'm inclined to try it.

As a drummer since 1966, this discussion is reminiscent of drummers on isolation mounts and feet. I have isolation feet on all my floor toms and it makes a big difference on most. Isolation mounts have become ubiquitous to the point where every manufacturer has their own copy of the original product. Some work and some don't, some bad copies even choke the shells and decrease resonance. And some drums just don't have much resonance to begin with so using them doesn't matter. 

The discussion about what the player hears is also very pertinent, especially as bands with drummers tend to be loud. In my case I've been playing with small "acoustic" groups and am pleased that better, more complex tone reaches the audience.  But in every case some nuance is lost to the audience unless you are close to them in a space with excellent acoustics.

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## Jeff Mando

There is a similar discussion amongst audiophiles regarding turntable isolation feet, record "clamps", and something called a sandbox....

All these doodads have their fans who swear by them......and that's great!  As I have stated before, my only real objection is that someone designs a state of the art $megadollar$ turntable (or builds a beautiful mandolin...) and then some sharpie on the sidelines wants a piece of the market and makes up some goofy add-on gadget........

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## DHopkins

> All these doodads have their fans who swear by them......and that's great!  As I have stated before, my only real objection is that someone designs a state of the art $megadollar$ turntable (or builds a beautiful mandolin...) and then some sharpie on the sidelines wants a piece of the market and makes up some goofy add-on gadget........


Yeah, I know what you're talking about.  They did that with cars, too.  Someone added a heater, and a radio, hydraulic brakes, air conditioning and, well, you know what I mean.  What's a guy to do?

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MontanaMatt

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## Jeff Mando

> Yeah, I know what you're talking about.  They did that with cars, too.  Someone added a heater, and a radio, hydraulic brakes, air conditioning and, well, you know what I mean.  What's a guy to do?


Exactly, who needs a heater and all that stuff on a mandolin?!!  :Mandosmiley:

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## Br1ck

Over 200 posts and we've arrived at a definitive answer.

So go buy one and try it. If you don't like it, sell it for a ten dollar loss and move on. Then do the same with a BC pick. Cheap entertainment.

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DHopkins, 

John Soper, 

Kevin Winn, 

MikeEdgerton, 

sblock, 

yankees1

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## Greg P. Stone

I'd love to see a Tone-Gard armrest combo.

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## Jeff Mando

> I'd love to see a Tone-Gard armrest combo.


Don't get me started on arm rests.....................just kidding!  :Smile:

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## dhergert

Hmmm.  Added mass.

Just kidding too.   :Smile:

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## colorado_al

> I'd love to see a Tone-Gard armrest combo.


My mandolins are either Tone-Gard & McClung armrest or Tone-Gard & SOliver armrest.

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## Br1ck

One of the toneguard pads will likely need to be sliced off. You can glue it back from the armrest hardware, but the armrest hardware will protect the mandolin so there is no need.

Armrest brackets built into a toneguard would be nifty, but then you have no adjustment if you like your armrest one way or the other.

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## Chris Daniels

> One of the toneguard pads will likely need to be sliced off. You can glue it back from the armrest hardware, but the armrest hardware will protect the mandolin so there is no need.


Neither of the Tonegards (one Standard Deco, one Vintage Sunrise) on the two of my mandolins that have them needed to be modified in any way to attach the McClung armrests they both also have. On the Standard model I could see where there could have been some trouble, but the edge of the TG doesn't extend all the way to the rim so the pad is alongside the clamp but doesn't interfere.

If there had been a conflict where the clamp is underneath the TG, I could have rotated the TG quite a few degrees in either direction to move the pad to one side of the clamp. YMMV.

C.

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## dhergert

Here are my two mandolins with their ToneGards and their Cumberland Acoustic armrests.

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## Frankdolin

Tone Guard? Is that like a chastity belt for a mandolin. You can see it, but can't touch or feel it. It will "protect your back from belt rash" and when you sell you can advertise as pristine and untouched by any human.

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