# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  Play for free ...

## billkilpatrick

No mando' content but it's related and might be of interest - could also be worked into a wicked little shame and blame song:

http://www.boredpanda.com/artists-wo...a/?page_numb=1

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## Astro

Musicians just have to learn to choose. Do you want to not get paid or not work ?

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## Drew Egerton

I struggle with this in our band sometimes. We all have real jobs so we are certainly not in it for the money, but I have grown tired of playing for free unless it is for a good charity event. One BBQ place in particular does offer a meal but that's it. Wouldn't be so bad if the folks that came to listed would use the tip jar, but they don't even with some gentle nudging.

Other places we've played we get anywhere from 50-300 bucks in tips depending on the crowd and venue.

For me, it's less about the actual money and more about feeling like we are appreciated and bringing a value to the venue.

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lloving, 

Mark Wilson, 

sgarrity, 

Simon DS

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## MikeZito

Personally, I don't mind playing for free - just as long as I know that I am not being used.  I have played in lots of little struggling coffee shops, theaters, local TV shows, events for the handicapped, etc.  I know they are barely making enough to survive, so I just go, enjoy playing my songs, (I only do original music, so in a bar-band dominated town, any chance to play is a good thing); and get a little exposure and practice at the same time . . . however, when it comes to festivals, well established restaurants, etc. - I expect to see some green in my wallet at the end of the night.

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Charlieshafer, 

Kris N

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## Eric C.

We never play for free, as it really screws other bands that may/may not need the money. Nothing worse than your local region being saturated with play-for-free bands/musicians.

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Bill Cameron, 

DataNick, 

David L, 

jesserules, 

Jimmy Kittle, 

lloving, 

Roger Adams, 

RustyMadd, 

Warren H

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## Denny Gies

I had no idea you could get paid for playing.

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Billy Packard, 

Simon DS

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## Ausdoerrt

> Personally, I don't mind playing for free - just as long as I know that I am not being used.


Unfortunately, in most cases I've seen, it's just "cost-cutting" by the organizers, i.e. you are indeed being used. They wouldn't ask the company renting them stage equipment to do it for free, for example, but musicians are 'fair game'. Playing for free also usually comes with a lack of respect for your work, so that's another reason to pass on free gigs.

This only applies to for-profit ventures, of course. We do occasionally play free and/or "expenses covered" gigs, but only if it's an extremely cool gig or if it's for a good cause.





> We never play for free, as it really screws other bands that may/may not need the money. Nothing worse than your local region being saturated with play-for-free bands/musicians.


Price dumping is the word. A really bad sort of word.

A good anti-dumping argument I've been using when someone tries to persuade me (for the millionth time) is: "We'll make more money and/or have more fun busking instead of playing your free gig."  :Smile:

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RustyMadd

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## Willie Poole

Bluegrass jobs used to be pretty easy to get in the D.C.. Maryland area but a lot of places now find that they can call it an "Open Mic" session and some bands play and don`t get any pay, and I guess that is OK to do it to get the exposure but after spending well over 5 grand for sound equipment and instruments I do not feel that my band should play a "freebie" unless it is for a real good cause to raise funds for a non-profit organization, when I play in a pub and they are charging 4-6 bucks for a beer I want some of that money...To play a three hour gig we sometime travel for an hour one way and need another hour to set up and tear down the system so we are really working for six or more hours and that usually means we are working for less that minimum wage when we do a show...It is hard to get bar owners to understand that so I usually try and stick with festivals and private parties and they usually feed us also...

     Its a dog eat dog world out there...Willie

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fernmando

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## Randi Gormley

Our music-making seems to come in two sections: Irish sessions and gigs. With sessions, the question is whether the leader gets money or not -- none of the people in the session expect to get anything but free drinks (or food, depending). I've been at both types of sessions -- where the leader gets money and where they don't. But a session is generally in a well-established bar, the makeup and number of the musicians varies, it's all acoustic and nothing is actually "arranged" or set up except a table and armless chairs. That's one thing. But when our band is sent out to entertain -- hired by someone to perform music at a specific venue where we set up equipment, have a set list and also entertain, we charge. We'll make an exception if we're playing at one of the inner city schools, but if we're playing a school in an affluent district, we charge; we also charge high-end nursing homes but not, again, small places in bad neighborhoods (as it were). When the group started out, they were happy for "exposure," but we're mostly pretty experienced and competent these days and just don't play for free any more.

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DataNick

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## CarlM

Here is Gillian Welch's take on music for free.  I have done this one with a singer friend at open mics.  I am not sure she was aware of the irony.




And here is Joni Mitchell with the other side of the coin.

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## allenhopkins

Depends;  I did two memorial events this past weekend, and didn't expect payment.  On the other hand, I do a lot of work entertaining at seniors' facilities, and expect to get paid to do it.  Others are glad to volunteer for such gigs, and I don't criticize them, but that's not my orientation.

"Good causes" are one thing, playing for a profit-making entity that just wants "something for nothing" is another.  Open mic nights are the bane of many musicians; the host or the "feature" gets paid -- maybe -- no one else does.

On the other hand, two other musicians and I have been running a small acoustic concert series at a small-town library for seven years now, twice a month year-round, all on a volunteer basis, other than the one night a year we book ourselves as "features."  It's a great experience, for sure, but I put in a 60-mile 'round trip every other Wednesday, plus setting up and taking down the room, acting as MC, all for the "love of it."  Some of us are just gluttons for punishment, I guess.

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DataNick

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## pops1

I do both, been getting paid for 40+ years, but do a lot of free events too. Today we are playing a weekly jam at a friend's house who was a musician that was paralyzed in an auto accident a couple of years ago. We play there every week. We also do a monthly jam, it helps newer player to learn tunes, that is free. Friday is paid, Sat, music party, Sun paid. It changes all the time, but some things are worthwhile to share your gift and hard work.

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## Polecat

Ive been playing music in public for around 35 years, sometimes been paid for it, sometimes not. Ironically, the two bands I was in that made the most money involved playing my least favorite genres of music and I soon left them.
We no longer live in a culture that intrinsically values music as a part of social life, and the musicians role is not that which it has been throughout most of history, so I dont think the "old rules" apply any more, and I dont think the term "professional musician" is very helpful - musicians do and always have played for fun as well as for profit, sometimes both at the same time, sometimes only for one or the other. This is not generally true of surgeons, for example, or lawyers, to name just two "professions".
Personally, I would rather play for a pittance for 20 people who listen and respond than for "real money" for a couple of hundred who treat what Im offering them like the wallpaper - its nice that its there but doesnt really warrant much attention.

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RustyMadd

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## catmandu2

[QUOTE=allenhopkins;1577674]... 60-mile 'round trip every other Wednesday, plus setting up and taking down the room...[/QUOTE

One thing performers all know is the time and energy expenditures made.  As Allen mentions and perhaps others: travel, set-up, tear down, etc is a significant portion of performing.  I've changed my habits wrt performing over the past years.  I perform solo and expunged hauling gear - wield loud acoustic instruments in backpacks so convenience is optimized - so've made it the luxury to give my music freely - have some standing invitations at local seniors' facilities to drop in (always seems to be a Friday morning for me).  I consider this community service, and feel it's a wonderful privilege to be able to do it.  My current band-mates, however, make long drives and pack the PA gear, so when I perform with them I defer to the group's pecuniary basis.

*I should say that I always mention to the management when I initially meet them why I do gratis, and explain the importance of making the gesture of offering compensation to others.  The message gets across - and is often a priori to folks - that the music is of great value.  Often compensation is offered.

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allenhopkins

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## Beanzy

I'll play for free at local folk clubs, one because they have a clear policy of alternating guest nights (paid professionals) and members nights (where people bring along songs and tunes to share)
The other one is just everyone in the community cobbling together a social life and the beer is about 1/2 the price of that in the pub with any profit going towards funding the Annual Folk Festival. So it's kind of putting the shoulder to the community wheel.
However our orchestra will not be playing at the festival as the comittee would not fund our professional leader's fee. 
I don't mind in amateur situations, but there is a line where professionals need to be respected and paid accordingly.
The other orchestras I am involved in all pay subs to cover the normal rehearsals & we promote our own concerts to fund local music development initiatives. Similarly with the amateur theatre company. As for gigging or sessions in bars, not really my kind of thing unless someone is prepared to pay me for my time.  
I organise regular house sessions with friends for that kind of thing & the music is invariably better than in pubs & clubs. 
Far more worthwhile too, wile leaving the boozers to their canned music and indoor buskers.

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Mike Barber

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## jaycat

We've had this discussion before, and I reminded folks that back 'in the old days,' free concerts were a common event. The Youngbloods in particular were known for giving them. AFAIK nobody profited and nobody lost $$ but there was a wonderful vibe and everyone had fun. For nothing but the love of the music. Sorry, just a superannuated hippie I guess . . .

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## Tobin

I don't want to live in a world where good artists can't make a living with their talent.  But I also don't want to live in a world where people who are already gainfully employed can't pursue their artistic side publicly without being hated by the "professionals".  How do we resolve the two?  Surely this world is big enough for everyone to pursue their artistic side, either for profit or for the love of the art form, without stepping on each others' toes.

I'm going to keep playing my music in public for free, or for free drinks/tips.  And I'll continue to envy those who can make a living from their passion.

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Charlieshafer, 

jesserules, 

Turlagh

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## catmandu2

> We've had this discussion before, and I reminded folks that back 'in the old days,' free concerts were a common event. The Youngbloods in particular were known for giving them. AFAIK nobody profited and nobody lost $$ but there was a wonderful vibe and everyone had fun. For nothing but the love of the music. Sorry, just a superannuated hippie I guess . . .


Ya I like it.  I don't charge for my music, as it's a gift for me as much as a listener.  But i'll charge for travel, labor, logistics, when working with others etc which includes participating in the normal mundane social conventions/transaction, so money or barter is part of that.

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## Folkmusician.com

I see a shift from the value of the "performance", to the value of the marketing side.  Obviously, a paying venue has always been about profit and the performers are supposed to draw a crowd and or set a mood. More and more is expected, and it isn't so much about the music anymore. 

One group I know keeps a call list (predominately Boomers). So just before the gig, a personal phone call is made to each name on their list. They pack every show. During the show they interact with the audience. Many times, by name. The crowd loves it. I went to one and asked the bartender how it was going. Answer, best night they remembered. They charge a premium and venues are thrilled to have them.

Two of my friends do solo acts and bring in a good living wage. They have no following at all. They play higher-end settings as background music, show up in a suit, play quietly with virtually no interaction with the crowd. This is the complete opposite of most successful musicians, but it is a skill unto itself. The more financially successful of the two, does play for free here and there, but he is selective about the paying gigs and stays booked.  

Some of my more musicially talented friends, do not have the business side down and do not do well. They are great musicians and performers, but can't land consistent good paying gigs. Exceptions being those with good booking agents/managers.

Several friends/acquaintances that own clubs have all told me the same thing. Open mics and especially Karaoke, can draw bigger crowds than most bands. It is not just about not paying bands. The bands do not have the draw that Karaoke does. Karaoke has a serious following, and people drag their friends along. An MC of an open mic will typically make just as much as a band playing the same venue. There is no cost savings for the club. 

Business first, if you want to make money in the Music "Business".   :Smile:

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catmandu2, 

Charlieshafer, 

DataNick

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## catmandu2

Yes, and that DJ stuff - emcee and everything built right in.  What do they call that - 'live sound' or somesuch?  I'm sure it's called something else by now..  PA, amp and a laptop.  Maybe the new 'performance' genre is called simply 'Tech'..

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Folkmusician.com

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## Folkmusician.com

Oh yes, DJ's.  I totally forgot about that aspect!

I would venture a guess, that the most successful clubs are more dance oriented and do use Dj's. It has even spilled over into Country line dancing.


In a way, I (and people like me) contribute to the whole problem. I do not enjoy going to crowded venues to listen to music. I love going to a small brewpub with a band as long as it is not overly crowded.  In fact, I would rather listen to a so so band in this type of environment than a great band in an environment that I don't care for.  So the venues I go to, really can't afford to pay the band.   :Smile:

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Tobin

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## brunello97

> ....But I also don't want to live in a world where people who are already gainfully employed can't pursue their artistic side publicly without being hated by the "professionals".  ....Surely this world is big enough for everyone to pursue their artistic side, either for profit or for the love of the art form, without stepping on each others' toes.


Word.  Fair play to you, amigo.

Mick

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## DHopkins

There are certain gig that are free:  veteran support, funerals, etc.  I'm a retired cop, one member of our band is a retired firefighter, one member is a deputy chief, two of us are veterans.  We do some public safety freebies.  There are a couple of volunteer fire departments nearby and we also always help them in their fund raisers.  We're always glad to help out.

We enjoy helping and have fun playing but the bottom line is, however, we'd rather have the money.

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## Austin Bob

I live in a town where folks with real talent regularly play for tip jars. It's a sad reality. It's never been easy to make it as a musician, now it's practically impossible. 

The other side of the coin is there are some who feel they are owed a living just because they can cover some songs semi-adequately.

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## Bertram Henze

People like to know the established financial value of something before they pay for it. What you are playing, OTOH, may be either new to them, i.e. unfathomable albeit fascinating, or it looks understated, like what everybody could do back home sitting on a straw bale. Nobody's paying for that.

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## Simon DS

If I lived alone on a desert island, I think I'd much rather hear a friend play badly than pay someone who is good to play. 
...maybe.

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## Bertram Henze

> If I lived alone on a desert island, I think I'd much rather hear a friend play badly than pay someone who is good to play. 
> ...maybe.


...Johnny Depp???

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## Bren

It's a miracle that anyone gets paid at all these music-saturated days, especially for doing something that they enjoy doing for free anyway. And the audience knows that.

There was a brief window in time, maybe 50s through 70s, when there was a huge appetite for live music and not that many people who could play it convincingly.

That moment is long gone. 

The demographic bulge has moved on into old age , (many of them picking up some playing skills along the way). 

The young can even get a college degree in bluegrass or traditional Irish or Scottish playing, not to mention the plethora of teaching aids available now which simplify the of learning styles that were like mystifying black arts back in the day. 

So you have a shrinking market saturated with an over-supply of competent musicians.

I'm fortunate to be get a regular gigs with a ceilidh band, which is not only enjoyable, but mainly plays weddings and big events so pays OK (more than the sums I've seen mentioned in this thread). But it wouldn't keep me in any sort of a lifestyle. And a lot of weddings just go for a DJ or conventional covers band, even in North Scotland.

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MikeZito

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## billkilpatrick

> It's a miracle that anyone gets paid at all these music-saturated days, especially for doing something that they enjoy doing for free anyway. And the audience knows that.
> 
> There was a brief window in time, maybe 50s through 70s, when there was a huge appetite for live music and not that many people who could play it convincingly.
> 
> That moment is long gone. 
> 
> The demographic bulge has moved on into old age , (many of them picking up some playing skills along the way). 
> 
> The young can even get a college degree in bluegrass or traditional Irish or Scottish playing, not to mention the plethora of teaching aids available now which simplify the of learning styles that were like mystifying black arts back in the day. 
> ...


I was told - and no reason to doubt - that the only live, acoustic musicians who can make a decent living are pipers … and they only have to play two tunes: "Amazing Grace" for funerals and "Scotland the Brave" for knees-ups.

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## Bertram Henze

> So you have a shrinking market saturated with an over-supply of competent musicians.


...plus, the market is not really picky about the "competent" part (correct intonation seems to be all out of fashion with singers).

But that situation is not new. Apart from the Classical genre, where they have an organised quality image, music has always been a street thing, and the streets are electronically virtual today.

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Jess L.

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## Frankdolin

I do envy professional musicians ability to manage to still love what they do. for me money changes everything. People expect, demand, and otherwise think that giving you a couple lousy bucks gives them power over you and how/what you perform. By playing for free I reserve the primadona right to pack up my mandolin and go. That has never happened, except I did play a night of electric guitar blues in a Chinese restaurant once after the manager made a big deal of telling us NO BLUES. The crowd went crazy for it and he was powerless to stop us.   :Mandosmiley:

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## Bren

Bill - pipers are also often hired to play at weddings in Scotland . It's common for guests to arrive and be greeted by a piper in full regalia playing. So they'd need at least one other tune, and most of course would be bored stiff and have  a big repertoire, so they play quite a variety.

Bertram - I'm not sure "competence" is the most valuable thing. That's why I put "convincing" which I think is more important. Don''t get me started on amplified buskers, which forces buskers to spread themselves thinner but still adds to the general cacophony I referred to by "music--saturated".

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## Ausdoerrt

> I do envy professional musicians ability to manage to still love what they do. for me money changes everything. People expect, demand, and otherwise think that giving you a couple lousy bucks gives them power over you and how/what you perform. By playing for free I reserve the primadona right to pack up my mandolin and go.


Interestingly, my experience is just the opposite. It seems like the amount of respect you get is proportional to what you're paid. If  you're playing for free, the manager tends to communicate as if it's the band that owes THEM for the 'privilege' of playing at their place, rather than them profiting off a free gig. The relationship is usually clearer and more professional when there's money involved. Maybe it's just a difference in mentality, dunno.

I also do love my day job, so maybe I'm just the odd one out, heh.




> That has never happened, except I did play a night of electric guitar blues in a Chinese restaurant once after the manager made a big deal of telling us NO BLUES. The crowd went crazy for it and he was powerless to stop us.


That is legitimately hilarious  :Laughing:

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## Bren

That is true Ausdoerrt - they are more likely to interfere with people who play for nothing. Having said that, I love playing in pub sessions. When they're good, they're the best.

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## allenhopkins

> I don't want to live in a world where good artists can't make a living with their talent.  But I also don't want to live in a world where people who are already gainfully employed can't pursue their artistic side publicly without being hated by the "professionals".  How do we resolve the two?  Surely this world is big enough for everyone to pursue their artistic side, either for profit or for the love of the art form, without stepping on each others' toes.  I'm going to keep playing my music in public for free, or for free drinks/tips.  And I'll continue to envy those who can make a living from their passion.


1. I don't make a living from music, never have.  As a retiree with a pension, I supplement it by playing about 175-200 small-potatoes gigs per year, two-thirds of which are for seniors in different venues -- residences, recreation centers, social clubs.  So my "professional" qualifications are quite diluted; if I go a month with only two or three gigs, I don't have to max out my credit card or apply for SNAP benefits.

2. I also don't begrudge anyone who wants to play for free, as I also do fairly frequently.  There are jams, Celtic sessions, open mics, neighborhood festivals and block parties, farmers' markets, house parties and many other such venues where people are welcome to come in and play gratis.  I've been regularly attending a weekly folk club sing-around for 45+ years now, where I kick a couple buxx into the kitty to help pay for the room, and take my turn in the "song circle" (besides noodling along behind others' songs).

3. What I do begrudge, a bit, is when the venue operator is making money off musicians' willingness to "pursue their artistic side publicly."  Not blaming the performers, but a little unhappy with the club owner or promoter who charges admission, sells drinks and food, and doesn't share any of the revenue with the musicians who attract his clientele.  Even a "tip jar" would alleviate that situation.  I've driven 150 miles 'round trip to play in a small-town cafe, where the tips yielded me less than $50, because I liked the place and I liked its owner.  Besides, he gave me a really nice dinner as well.

I'm doing a "tip jar" gig this Friday in Waterloo NY, the "home of Memorial Day," where they're expecting a bit of a crowd.  We'll see how it goes.  But yesterday and today, it was seniors' programs where the activities director agreed to a modest stipend.  There's a line between cheerfully sharing our talents, and being exploited for profit, and I want to stay on the good side of that line.

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DataNick

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## Ausdoerrt

> That is true Ausdoerrt - they are more likely to interfere with people who play for nothing. Having said that, I love playing in pub sessions. When they're good, they're the best.


I don't consider pub sessions, jams and the like to be 'gigs' per se - usually it's just musicians gathering at will to have fun together. In other words, if you don't show up, the event will still happen as planned.

It's the playing of an actual arranged performance for free - and the attempts by some managers to get musicians to play such gigs for free citing 'exposure' or whatever other BS they can come up with - that rubs me the wrong way. I mean, at least cover the band's expenses, otherwise it's just profiting at the musicians' cost.

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## NursingDaBlues

Please understand, I am not trying to change anybody’s opinion or the way they conduct their affairs. Your point of view is your point of view. But the position I’ve held since the late ‘60s is simple: if someone wants to hire me to perform, I do not play for free; I do not reduce my rate. There will always be someone – in any given profession – who will do a job for less. That’s fine.  Folks just have to decide if they can walk away with their professionalism intact or succumb to a bidding war. But if more performers held their ground and said the price is the price, we’d all have better footing in establishing a firm rate for performing.  And the term “Professional Musician” would actually carry some weight. 

Further, it’s a fact of life, many venue owners/managers and event organizers say that they can get their son or nephew or neighbor to play for a lot less; that they are doing you a favor to pay a small percentage of what you’re asking because they’re providing you with exposure; or that they don’t bring in enough to pay the going rate. To this I say: if entertainment is an important or critical part of their business or event then they need to step up to the plate. 

I’ve never been a full-time professional musician. But I have known, and continue to know, many who are. I maintain a very high respect for their profession and their occupation of choice.  While part-time musicians usually have a day job that pays their bills and use music as a means for extra cash or a way to feed an ego, a full time professional depends on the gig to support himself and his family. I will not take a gig away from a professional simply on the merit that I will accept less than what I’m worth for my service.

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Ausdoerrt, 

Folkmusician.com

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## Folkmusician.com

I would love Allen's situation. To me, this is the ideal musical life.  :Smile: 

Speaking of tips...

I did a video of a concert in a park. This is one of those summer things they do every other weekend. They pay next to nothing, but it is legitimately not for profit (nothing is sold, everyone but the band is a volunteer ). The band initially turned it down, because it is a small town (under 1000 people) that was out of the way. As it turns out, they get a good paying gig that has them driving by this place on the way home and they will even be rolling through at the right time to stop and setup. Show is agreed upon.  

The band will be carrying minimal gear. While discussing what to do, it is decided to make a production out of it. There had been plans to record a show like this for a while, so what the heck! A sound company is hired (band's expense), an additional soundman is brought in to do a live recording, and we are doing video. I believe we had a 7 person crew in addition to the band. 

We roll into this tiny town and there is pretty much no one anywhere to be seen. Everything is setup, and still virtually no one around. We are doing sound check in a virtually empty park!  I guess we won't be getting any crowd shots!  haha

Anyway...  people start to filter in with a good portion of them bringing food. It turns into a huge potluck and the park is filled with people. The audience is great and we had to empty out the tip jar several times due to it overflowing. We made it back to Reno very late and stopped at a diner before heading home. This was the first time the tips were counted. This part was shocking. One dollar bills were in the minority. A good portion of the bills were twenties. It was a significant amount of money.

It was quite emotional really. There are still places where people genuinely appreciate and support music. Granted, it is becoming rare.

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allenhopkins, 

DataNick

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## Randi Gormley

artists of any kind often are faced with the same request. My friends who are photographers get asked to take photos for free or exposure; fine artists or designers are asked to design or paint stuff for free or exposure; writers, too, are asked to help edit or write something for free to help out a friend or submit stories to magazines for exposure ... as so many say, you can die of exposure. so it's a universal complaint.

The world has a way around artists in a way it doesn't seem to have around other professions. A lot of the step dancers these days use recordings for both performance and competition -- they seem a little nonplussed if asked to dance with live musicians; any computer can supply clip art and photoshop and everybody has a smart phone or portable camera. I guess a lot of people figure if they can do something even half-way decently, then what an expert does isn't worth the money. Think of the way people talk about school and teachers, or all the people (myself included) who attempt home improvement. I sometimes think it's a rare person indeed who values an expert except as a last resort.

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DataNick, 

Folkmusician.com

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## Ancient

I understand that because there are less good paying gigs that a lot of musicians are going back to doing in home concerts.

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## catmandu2

> artists of any kind often are faced with the same request. My friends who are photographers get asked to take photos for free or exposure; fine artists or designers are asked to design or paint stuff for free or exposure; writers, too, are asked to help edit or write something for free to help out a friend or submit stories to magazines for exposure ... as so many say, you can die of exposure. so it's a universal complaint.
> 
> The world has a way around artists in a way it doesn't seem to have around other professions. A lot of the step dancers these days use recordings for both performance and competition -- they seem a little nonplussed if asked to dance with live musicians; any computer can supply clip art and photoshop and everybody has a smart phone or portable camera. I guess a lot of people figure if they can do something even half-way decently, then what an expert does isn't worth the money. Think of the way people talk about school and teachers, or all the people (myself included) who attempt home improvement. I sometimes think it's a rare person indeed who values an expert except as a last resort.


Quite so.  It's an issue performers, artisans, craftpersons or anyone providing a service should consider and resolve (in whatever manner found most appropriate).  There are many methods and choices of participation (or establishment) in economy.  As mentioned above, exploitation should not be permitted anywhere, anytime.  Personally, having sensitivity wrt issues, I'm vigilant against this and recommend for everyone (not just regarding music).

Local dance performers often use recordings - they rehearse and are typically reliant on the comfort of totally predictable music (tempo, etc).  And so on..

Like wilderness and other forms of experience and phenomena, live music performance entails some degree of investment among patrons.  Recognition is often readily given, but some will not realize the value - in its myriad forms - but think only in terms of 'profit.'  Those who would seek to 'hire' a performer without the recognition do not understand the importance of fair trade.  Whenever I encounter these would-be patrons, I politely decline merely on grounds of principle.

*The prevalence of amateur music-making however presents complications: easy vehicle for exploitation by venues, as well as fomenting expectation among some players to be compensated perhaps beyond a reasonable expectation.  Here, I think it helps to make some distinction among types of music-making and public interaction: 'playing, performing, entertaining,' etc.

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## Bertram Henze

> I sometimes think it's a rare person indeed who values an expert except as a last resort.


I always wonder how restaurants still survive, what with all the cooking on TV which should have made everybody a respectable chef by now.

Somehow you have to harvest that "last resort", such as by being a doctor or a psychiatrist, or you do a combination like creating the need for a last resort and then provide it (be a fireman with a lighter in his pocket) or the Sweeney Todd business model.

But none of that can possibly help you with music due to its free-flowing nature. It's like selling the wind.

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Folkmusician.com

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## T Wayne

I tend to divide this into three categories:

Playing = no pay
Performing = some pay
Entertaining = good pay

Our Friday night parking lot jam brings out a lawn chair audience of anywhere from 10 - 50.  No one expects compensation (although one regular listener knitted me an afghan).  I often see musicians "performing" songs at venues and that is all.  They have not invested the time and effort to put together a set list that flows (often pausing to reflect "what should I / we play next?), they interact very little with the audience and are doing nothing or very little to help the event owner keep the customers there and spending money, donating our whatever the "ask" might be.  Finally, there are what I call entertainers - the ones that put it all together and create a high value and enjoyable evening for the listeners - they get the bucks!

Each of the three has a place and can be rewarding.

Yes, our's is an art but there is a business in there somewhere for someone.  It might be the club owner or the non-profit raising funds for a meaningful cause but someone expects to gain benefit and thus the quality of the performance is related.

I have a performer / friend who started out working clubs for little or no pay but he entertained. As the owners began to notice the difference in revenue on the nights he played they began requesting him more and he could command a better price.  Thirty-five years later he still books every night he chooses to and makes a decent living.

Like most things, I get out of music what I put into it.

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Charlieshafer, 

Mark Wilson

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## billkilpatrick

> ... There's a line between cheerfully sharing our talents, and being exploited for profit, and I want to stay on the good side of that line.


Exactly - shouldn't be a logic too hard for impresarios, big and small, to accept.

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allenhopkins

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## Folkmusician.com

> I often see musicians "performing" songs at venues and that is all. They have not invested the time and effort to put together a set list that flows (often pausing to reflect "what should I / we play next?), they interact very little with the audience and are doing nothing or very little to help the event owner keep the customers there and spending money, donating our whatever the "ask" might be. Finally, there are what I call entertainers - the ones that put it all together and create a high value and enjoyable evening for the listeners - they get the bucks!



That is a great explanation and I 100% agree! Simply being a good musician is not enough.

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Mark Wilson

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## mugbucket

I'm still working on an angle to where I can get folks to pay me to stop playing.

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## Bertram Henze

> ...Finally, there are what I call entertainers - the ones that put it all together and create a high value and enjoyable evening for the listeners - they get the bucks!


Thanks for making me understand why I am a session player. A free beer is the introvert's riches.  :Mandosmiley:

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## Folkmusician.com

> I'm still working on an angle to where I can get folks to pay me to stop playing.


I am a natural at that, although they often just throw tomatoes!

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## Tobin

> 3. What I do begrudge, a bit, is when the venue operator is making money off musicians' willingness to "pursue their artistic side publicly."  Not blaming the performers, but a little unhappy with the club owner or promoter who charges admission, sells drinks and food, and doesn't share any of the revenue with the musicians who attract his clientele.  Even a "tip jar" would alleviate that situation.  I've driven 150 miles 'round trip to play in a small-town cafe, where the tips yielded me less than $50, because I liked the place and I liked its owner.  Besides, he gave me a really nice dinner as well.


I do agree that a venue owner should, at the very least, offer these musicians free drinks or food, etc.  A tip jar goes a long way for keeping the musicians pleased as well.  But I don't necessarily begrudge business owners for not doing this, in certain situations.  And I guess it really depends on the type of venue it is, as well as the musical talent they want to attract.

If, say, a business owner were to offer a standard cut of drink sales to the musicians, it really complicates their business model.  They have to consider the tax liability of paying the musicians, as well as insurance liability for them being "employees" or "contract labor" or whatever category they could fall under.  Not that this is an insurmountable obstacle, but it is something that a small mom & pop joint may want to avoid.  It's less of a legal/financial headache to compensate the players by other means.

But more importantly, I would think that the business owners would want to be very careful in how they compensate or reward musicians for playing in their establishment so that they can easily control the content and quality.  Put yourself in the shoes of a small business owner who has a roadside ice house.  If you discreetly give free drinks to the bluegrass jam group that plays there on Friday nights, everyone is happy.  But if you have a policy where they get a percentage of drink sales, and then the word gets out, you can have all kinds of people showing up expecting to get paid for their free (and crappy) music.  I'm thinking of teenagers and the college crowd who want to come in and play their self-written ballads, or whatever weird stuff they do.  It can quickly turn into a headache trying to shoo away the folks who think they're going to get a few bucks from a public gig in your establishment.

It's easy for musicians to think of business owners as "them", as if they are members of some sort of evil group who profit off the backs of others while they sit in piles of money and rub their hands together with evil grins on their faces.  But the truth is, small business owners struggle just as much (if not more, in many cases) as musicians.  The vast majority of them would like to create an inviting atmosphere where their customers can enjoy quaint local music, and they wouldn't mind providing reasonable compensation to the musicians.

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allenhopkins, 

Folkmusician.com, 

Jess L.

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## Tom C

When I went to Edmonton on a business trip about 10years ago, I was reading an article on how big a music scene there used to be there. But club owners started hiring lousy talent because they played cheap or free and brought in friends. Due to this the quality of the music went down.
   If a place gets bluegrass band to play for free, and for some unforeseen, unexplainable reason, there were people there who never heard bluegrass, changes are they will not get a real representation of the music compared to a more accomplished band that would not play for free.

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## catmandu2

> Our Friday night parking lot jam brings out a lawn chair audience of anywhere from 10 - 50.  No one expects compensation (although one regular listener knitted me an afghan).  I often see musicians "performing" songs at venues and that is all.  They have not invested the time and effort to put together a set list that flows (often pausing to reflect "what should I / we play next?), they interact very little with the audience and are doing nothing or very little to help the event owner keep the customers there and spending money, donating our whatever the "ask" might be.  Finally, there are what I call entertainers - the ones that put it all together and create a high value and enjoyable evening for the listeners - they get the bucks!
> 
> Each of the three has a place and can be rewarding ...






> When I went to Edmonton on a business trip about 10years ago, I was reading an article on how big a music scene there used to be there. But club owners started hiring lousy talent because they played cheap or free and brought in friends. Due to this the quality of the music went down.  If a place gets bluegrass band to play for free, and for some unforeseen, unexplainable reason, there were people there who never heard bluegrass, changes are they will not get a real representation of the music compared to a more accomplished band that would not play for free.


Good example showing why this must be considered in its systemic aspect.  An environment (or culture) where the patronship is not invested in - in this case live music performance (assumedly) - affects the dynamic adversely and systemically.  We cannot minimize or exploit a resource of value without having an effect in system.  Practices of fair exchange must exist or a breakdown somewhere in the system occurs.

It's a simple and fundamental principle, yet often goes without heed.

From the perspective of the venue - which may be trying to derive 'entertainment' from amateur 'players,' perhaps not understanding dynamics, etc  - there is this consequence.

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## Ausdoerrt

> That is a great explanation and I 100% agree! Simply being a good musician is not enough.


There are exceptions, of course (especially in the classical music world where it's all about performance and 'entertainment' in the modern sense is something out of the ordinary).

But it's a good rule of thumb. You sell a whole package, not just your ability to play an instrument. A (popular) musician who stares at his instrument all night is almost as bad as someone who can't play/sing in tune.

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## allenhopkins

I shed no tears for the "plight" of the club owner who doesn't pay musicians because it's "complicated."  I've been involved with running a twice-monthly concert series, under the auspices of a small-town public library, for seven years now.  We ask for a "donation" at the door, five or ten dollars depending on the status (which we measure subjectively) of the performer, and we give the performer the entire "gate" minus expenses.  The library doesn't charge us rent, and we get some touring and regional performers that you've actually heard of.  (By the way, if you've never heard *Loren Barrigar and Mark Mazengarb,* you should.)

Now, obviously, the three of us aren't trying to make a living from this; we do it for free, 'cause we like doing it.  But if we were a "music club," we'd be taking in a good deal more revenue, from food and alcohol sales, and we'd charge more at the door -- and it wouldn't be a non-enforceable "donation," either.  True, we'd have employees to pay, and rent, and taxes (nice to be sheltered under the library's umbrella).  But we'd damn well pay the musicians who drew people into the venue.

Running a club or coffeehouse is a chancy proposition, at best; they go into and out of business frequently around here.  Like the bed-and-breakfast, it's what everyone thinks would be fun to do, and wouldn't be that hard.  Wrong.  But the solution's not to try to get people to play for nothing.  Our little _Tunes By the Tracks_ has an open mic portion, and people show up who want to play a song or two, but any scheduled feature performer will get paid -- not a lot, but a decent wage for a one-hour set.

Not trying to seem virtuous, but trying to treat musicians the way we'd like to be treated.

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## billkilpatrick

> … You sell a whole package, not just your ability to play an instrument. A (popular) musician who stares at his instrument all night is almost as bad as someone who can't play/sing in tune.


One of many reasons why I'm not a professional musician.  "Acting out" the music would be embarrassing in the extreme for me, facial grimacing, writhing around in contortions, moanin'ana'groanin' … bah!

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Tobin

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## Ausdoerrt

You could try dancing, it's probably not as embarrassing, but it does take a bit of practice to do both at the same time.

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billkilpatrick

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## Bertram Henze

> One of many reasons why I'm not a professional musician.  "Acting out" the music would be embarrassing in the extreme for me, facial grimacing, writhing around in contortions, moanin'ana'groanin'  bah!


I am not sure that acting out would suffice. To entertain, you have to sell not just music or moves but your whole personality. Making people want to play or dance like you is not enough, they must want to *be* like you, their lives must feel dreary and empty without you.

For reasons of symmetry, your life must also feel dreary and empty without them. It comes at a price.

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## billkilpatrick

> … To entertain, you have to sell not just music or moves but your whole personality. …


Ahhh … there's the rub.  Introverts unite! - separately and in your own homes ...

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Beanzy, 

MontanaMatt

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## billkilpatrick

Bluegrass musicians tend to be undemonstrative while playing.

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## Tobin

> I shed no tears for the "plight" of the club owner who doesn't pay musicians because it's "complicated."  I've been involved with running a twice-monthly concert series, under the auspices of a small-town public library, for seven years now.


Well, obviously, as you know, a public library plays by a different set of rules than a private business.  They can do things that business owners can't legally do without declaring taxes, carrying additional insurance, etc.  I'm not trying to drum up sympathy for business owners or anything, but it is important to try to understand things from the perspective of small business owners.  I don't think I'm overstating things when I say that many of them live in constant fear of being put out of business by the tax man, local government officials who can always claim that local zoning/code/permit rules are being broken, etc.  Most of them are forced to skirt the rules where they can, just to scrape by.  I'm talking about the real mom & pop type establishments.  I know enough small business owners, and the issues they deal with, to be willing to help them out where they can.




> Running a club or coffeehouse is a chancy proposition, at best; they go into and out of business frequently around here.  Like the bed-and-breakfast, it's what everyone thinks would be fun to do, and wouldn't be that hard.  Wrong.  But the solution's not to try to get people to play for nothing.  Our little _Tunes By the Tracks_ has an open mic portion, and people show up who want to play a song or two, but any scheduled feature performer will get paid -- not a lot, but a decent wage for a one-hour set.


That is as it should be.  I do think there's room for both.  Local amateur musicians who just want to play publicly for free should get their chance, and "booked" acts should get paid.  I think it would go a long way towards resolving the issue if the venue owners were open and transparent with the paid performers about what they actually make per night, and what their expenses are, from the cost of the food and drinks to the electric bill, rent, insurance, wages, etc.  I would bet that a lot of musicians would be surprised at the razor-thin profits that a lot of small businesses are making.  Approaching it as more of a business partnership to benefit both parties, instead of an adversarial relationship, is always a good start.

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allenhopkins

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## catmandu2

Yes, I'm not going to vilify the 'club owner' out of hand.  There are many factors in the equation.  Among them may be the perception - hey, if good craic (and entertainment for patrons) can be had among session players in an Irish-style pub (without being paid monetarily), why not in my establishment?

Also, I've no personal experience with non-paying clubs: when I was playing them, it was $100/person.  Of course it wasn't 'folk' music.  But isn't 'folk' music a bit of a tenuous animal, traditionally, in terms of its money-making potential?  When I wanted to make money performing music, I formed or joined bands with established earning potential (for the club market).  'Concertizing' - whether folk, classical or jazz - is subject to other variables.

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## NursingDaBlues

Razor-thin margins are no reason to take advantage of folks trying to provide a valuable service. Call me heartless, but I believe in survival of the fittest. For a business to survive, it has to provide something that people are willing to pay for. It has to be properly managed. It has to follow a business plan. It requires adequate marketing. And it requires adequate capital. Take away any of those and the business will fail. Hey, I applaud the entrepreneurial spirit. But I don’t believe that gives a franchise operation, a corporate entity, or a mom and pop enterprise the right to take money out of someone else’s pocket. 

I know. I owned my own business for 25 years until I retired. While my business was not retail or entertainment based, razor-thin margins are a fact of life in just about any business. If a business wants to include entertainment, then they first have to justify it – will the entertainment bring incremental business in? If yes, then the cost of the entertainment has to be added to the cost of doing business. If no, then the idea needs to be scrapped. However, even if there is incremental business, if the incremental business won’t produce a profit margin that will cover the cost, then you don’t do it. Because why should you do something that will not make you money? It’s that simple. It’s called management. It’s called operating with a business plan. 

If you operate a business the way it’s supposed to be operated, you don’t have to resort to squeezing other folks trying to make a living.

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## Mandobart

Some interesting and valid responses as usual.  I'm a pretty good musician, been playing various instruments for over 40 years.  I get a handful of paid gigs a year, but I have never attempted to support my family financially with my musical skills.  I'm also a skilled residential plumber and electrician, but again that's not my day job.  I've never attempted to support my family financially through these skills either.  When I help a friend with their plumbing or electrical problems for a couple beers and dinner am I stealing work from a union craftsman?  I don't think so - I'm using my skills to help someone.  Is it unethical to donate those skills on a Habitat for Humanity home?

When I play for a friend's wedding gratis am I "stealing" work from a union musician?  Just a question is anyone reading this even a member of a Musician's Union?  There was a time in America when being a trained, skilled musician was seen as a skilled trade like carpentry, pipefitting, etc.  You never see electricians, auto mechanics, plumbers, etc. down on the corner plying their trade for tips....

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## Tobin

> Razor-thin margins are no reason to take advantage of folks trying to provide a valuable service. Call me heartless, but I believe in survival of the fittest. For a business to survive, it has to provide something that people are willing to pay for. It has to be properly managed. It has to follow a business plan. It requires adequate marketing. And it requires adequate capital. Take away any of those and the business will fail. Hey, I applaud the entrepreneurial spirit. But I don’t believe that gives a franchise operation, a corporate entity, or a mom and pop enterprise the right to take money out of someone else’s pocket.


All the things you just said apply to musicians just as equally as business owners.

If you want to survive as a paid musician, you have to provide a service people are willing to pay for, and work hard to make it happen.  If people aren't willing to pay for it, what does that say about your business model or the value of the service you provide?  That's where I see the disconnect here.  Musicians sometimes tend to think that they are in some sort of special category that exists independently of the rest of the business world, and that their pay should be based on some sort of moral high ground rather than the actual market.

But the truth is, if local venues aren't willing to pay for musicians to play, then there simply isn't a market for your services.  Or perhaps the market is flooded by those who play for free.  You can try to create one by convincing them of the value.  You can search other markets.  But business is business.  They don't owe you the right to play in their establishment for the pay you are demanding, any more than you owe them the right to cater food and drinks to your next party.  

And let's be fair here when we use phrases like "take money out of someone else's pocket".  No business owner can force you to play music for free.  You, as a musician, have the right to enter into a contract or not.  It's totally up to you.  They cannot steal your services without your consent.  All they can do is refuse to hire you for the pay you want.  You, as a businessman, can choose to walk away.  Obviously, if they break a contract you've already made with respect to paying you after you've played, that's a different story.  But I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

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Bren

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## NursingDaBlues

> Some interesting and valid responses as usual.  I'm a pretty good musician, been playing various instruments for over 40 years.  I get a handful of paid gigs a year, but I have never attempted to support my family financially with my musical skills.  I'm also a skilled residential plumber and electrician, but again that's not my day job.  I've never attempted to support my family financially through these skills either.  When I help a friend with their plumbing or electrical problems for a couple beers and dinner am I stealing work from a union craftsman?  I don't think so - I'm using my skills to help someone.  Is it unethical to donate those skills on a Habitat for Humanity home?
> 
> When I play for a friend's wedding gratis am I "stealing" work from a union musician?  Just a question is anyone reading this even a member of a Musician's Union?  There was a time in America when being a trained, skilled musician was seen as a skilled trade like carpentry, pipefitting, etc.  You never see electricians, auto mechanics, plumbers, etc. down on the corner plying their trade for tips....


For me, the operative phrase that I used earlier is: "_if someone wants to hire me to perform_..."  What a person does for civic or personal good is purely his/her own decision. Some may take a harder stance while others may not draw any type of distinction. That is their choice and I certainly will not try to impose my own thoughts on anyone. My opinions are simply that -- my opinions. 

In a lot of ways, I miss the climate of the late ‘60s early ‘70s. The musician’s local where I lived was pretty strong. They made sure that session players and house bands were paid well; contracts were reviewed every year; and members had a hard deck on the base amount they were to be paid. You could ask for more, but you could never go below the minimum. The majority of the clubs hired union to ensure that they got quality bands and wouldn’t get no-shows. Musicians knew that they would have decent playing conditions and wouldn’t get stiffed. Venues that did not abide by contracts or were slow-or non-pay would get black listed; and it was difficult for a venue to get off a black list. Most bands on tour would always register with the local when they came through to ensure that their interests would be protected before, during, and after their performance at a local venue.  Members received retirement and health benefits. And because musicians for the most part were musicians, and not very good business people, you had someone always speaking for you.  If you played music, you became a member of the local. Unfortunately, it's not that way anymore. Oh, well.

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## NursingDaBlues

> All the things you just said apply to musicians just as equally as business owners.


And I wholeheartedly agree with your statement. And much of what you said for that matter. 

Yes, I can choose to walk away from an offer. However, I don't especially care for the "take it or leave it" practice that I've experienced. I leave it. So do many of my peers. But there are some musicians who take it because they think that's all they've got.

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## dhergert

My band is a Gospel band.  We enjoy performing our music well enough that we want to play whenever we can...  The majority of our "gigs" are for small churches that have no budget for music; we gladly do programs for them as our schedule allows.  

But when asked by larger churches or by promoters of larger events or festivals, we do routinely ask "What is your budget for music for this event?"  It's a simple, non-assuming question, and even if there is no budget our band will still discuss and consider doing the "gig".  

Asking this question lets the venue know (1) that we are confident in our program quality and know our music has value, (2) we have enough experience with doing "gigs" that we know we should ask this question and (3) that if there is a music budget and if we agree to play, we expect to get a share of that budget.

If we do get to a point of discussing fees with a venue, we also have a separate fee if we're asked to provide our own sound equipment and mixing.  And we'll also discuss travel and housing expenses if they are involved.

We also do perform for a few small local businesses doing both Gospel and secular programming...  And we'll ask this "music budget" question for these businesses unless they specifically bring up pay.  But again, the answer does not necessarily determine whether we will play or not.

Music is a very competitive business to be in.  If a band wishes to go "pay-only", the quality of their performances need to be an obvious level above the bands that are willing to play for free.  That doesn't happen automatically, it requires lots of individual practice on the part of each band member and as a group, it requires careful planning of each gig, it requires managing the band as a professional business and it requires providing extraordinary value to the businesses that hire the band.  

In my opinion, discouraging local bands from playing for free is simply anti-competitive, and discouraging small businesses from bringing in free bands will simply squash possible venues for people who just want to perform for the fun of it.  Bands that want to go "pay-only" need to either be at the top of the food chain and be worth "pay-only", or they need to keep their day jobs.

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Austin Bob

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## Charlieshafer

I think the days of the local bands seem to be largely over. Robert Fear correctly pointed out that from a business standpoint, a bar that runs karaoke and open mics will have increased attendance over a simple local band. It's not the pay issue, it's people in the pub and number of drinks sold. If a band wants to get paid $500, it'll have to prove it can sell in pure profit, not just gross sales, more than $500 worth of food/beverages. That's hard to do in a small bar. The ones that do pay well are few and far between, and usually are music-oriented bars with years of experience running shows, and they alternate between local up-and-coming acts and smaller touring pros. Plus, most bars are very rock-oriented. Folk songs don't get people in a party/beverage consumption mood. In our area, Cafe Nine in New Haven is the perfect example.

And, on the meaning of the word professional, it means only that you derive a full-time income from music. Classical players do this by combining private teaching studios, weddings or other small gigs, plus the very part-time world of the actual symphony performance. A true performance-only professional simply has to tour, at the very least nationally, to make a go of it. You simply can't stay local as the market will be saturated. 

For the touring artist to make a living, they might play the occasional bar, but the money is at the small performing arts centers. Here, acoustic music of many sorts is expected, and eagerly anticipated. Some may seat 70 or so people, like Club Passim in Boston, and the bigger ones that seat around 200, are like Berkeley Freight and Salvage. Note that while they all serve food, it's just light stuff. They do serve beverages, and this is where the safety net comes from.

I've a good friend who is the beverage manager at a really up-and-coming arts organization, the Fairfield Theatre Company and on many of the nights during the midweek, the manager would have to back to the bar till to get enough money to pay the band. 

I have linked to these venues so you can see the level of musicians coming through. The bar is set really high. For my own venue, which is all-volunteer and non-profit, young artists need to be on a level of a Molly Tuttle, or Brittany Haas, or as a group, 9 Horses or Ten Strings and A Goatskin. Established players need to be at the level of Alasdair Fraser and Natalie Haas, Mike Marshall and Darol Anger, John Jorgensen, Ben Sollee, or Jeremy Kittel. Any less than that, and I won't get people to come. Audiences are a lot more discerning, and the older ones also tend to want a calmer environment without the loud bar-noise scene. 

So, the mid-level guys, who used to make a few extra bucks locally, are squeezed out. I'm not saying it's right, but it's the way it is. When I play out with the fiddle club, we will ask for a few bucks just to help run the program and pay instructors for the kids, but if it's a non-profit also, we won't charge. We'll have 6-year old kids and 85 year-old grandmas in there; how can you charge for that? When it's a few friends playing together to have a good time, we'll just head to open mics: we're all busy folks, no one has that much time to practice, so we really don't deserve any pay, but it's great to have a bar to go to, have people yell at you (for better or worse) and in general have a blast. On a Wednesday night, with open mic at this place, it'll be packed. When I rive by the same bar on a Saturday night, with a live local band, the place will only be half full.

To quote James Carvill, "It's the economy, stupid."

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Austin Bob

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## A-board

Before I picked up the mandolin, I sang with an acapella (not barbershop) group for about 10 yrs. Our first gig, unpaid, led to paid gigs as time went on. Eventually, we got connected to corporate functions and that represented the bulk of our performances in later years; corp gigs were frequently the result of our personal networking. We all had fulltime jobs and took no money out and used the funds to self produce 2 CDs which were million sellers ("I've got a million of them in my cellar!").  

Now, I jam with a group whose members are connected to a regional social/activity group. These folks provide an opportunity to build our (unpaid) chops at small house parties. As it happens, we get a little better as time goes on. Maybe there's an eventual payday!

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## Austin Bob

> To quote James Carvill, "It's the economy, stupid."


This really sums up this whole discussion in a nutshell.

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## leftus maximus

I play in a lot of trad sessions and have done in many places in Europe and USA. It's understood that the players may not expect to be paid, but a pint or perhaps some snacks thrown in shows at least a bit of proactive thinking.

My local pub, which is a great place in the middle of nowhere, just a mere stagger across a field from my house, has new 'management', who have turfed out the session after an hour because they need the tables for people to eat at.

I started that session about ten years ago and it's incredibly galling that the shot termist, money grabbing attitude from these guys has effectively ruined something that has been built up over years and has a name where people from out of town come and visit, and are now disappointed to find out that the session is no more. It now resides in a pub in town, where as soon as you go in, before you take off your jacket, a barman will come over with a glass and £50 in it, even if it's outwith the regular agreed time and dates.

Now the session is buzzing and well attended.

Another place in town lets local artists play there 'for the exposure'. I'd expose my lily white butt to anyone who tries that one with me  :Smile:

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## Bertram Henze

> My local pub, which is a great place in the middle of nowhere, just a mere stagger across a field from my house, has new 'management', who have turfed out the session after an hour because they need the tables for people to eat at.


Their food must be extraordinary to justify that step  :Whistling: 
OTOH, if it's the only place to eat "in the middle of nowhere", they might have a point. In town there's more competition where customers' ears can make an extra difference beside their stomachs.

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## leftus maximus

> Their food must be extraordinary to justify that step 
> OTOH, if it's the only place to eat "in the middle of nowhere", they might have a point. In town there's more competition where customers' ears can make an extra difference beside their stomachs.


Nah it's just standard pub grub, and not exactly great at that. In saying that it's in the middle of nowhere it's only a few miles from the nearest town.

The thing is the previous management have always realised that a good session will bring people in and keep them in. We've made that place a lot of money but they think that the musicians can be picked up and dropped when it suits. It doesn't work that way.

The session has pretty much stopped, with only a few locals going along and playing outside when the weather suits. It's a bit acrimonious and awkward from our point of view. They've also been told why people don't go any more yet keep expecting people to turn up. It's also the first thing they have in their advertising.

They're trying to be clever and stingy but unfortunately it's very transparent and people have walked.

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## Bertram Henze

> ... they think that the musicians can be picked up and dropped when it suits.

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## Tobin

> My local pub, which is a great place in the middle of nowhere, just a mere stagger across a field from my house, has new 'management', who have turfed out the session after an hour because they need the tables for people to eat at.
> 
> I started that session about ten years ago and it's incredibly galling that the shot termist, money grabbing attitude from these guys has effectively ruined something that has been built up over years and has a name where people from out of town come and visit, and are now disappointed to find out that the session is no more.


I can understand the disappointment of losing your regular session spot, but can you not see it from the business owner's perspective?  It's not "money grubbing" to try to put paying customers at tables.  That's what his business is there for, pure and simple.  Having musicians occupying space is all well and good if the owner needs help attracting customers, but if they at some point are an impediment to his ability to fully utilize his seating space, then any practical business owner is going to have to find a way to get those customers seated.  Otherwise, he is losing potential business.  And that's not a wise business decision.

I mean no disrespect here, but this is the sort of attitude that can be problematic amongst musicians, causing discord with businesses.  There seems to be an entitlement mentality that musicians are more important than the business owner's needs.  I think a lot of us sometimes forget that a restaurant, bar, or other small business has a first priority of making a living.  Having musicians in their establishment should be part of the mechanism for them to increase their business.  They are not there for charity.  If you can help them improve their business model, then it's a win-win scenario.  But if at any point the musicians are costing them too much, or not bringing in enough new customers to be worth what they're paying/comping, or taking up space that paying customers should be using, then it's a problem.  And we need to be sensitive to that.  It's not all about us when it comes to playing in someone else's business establishment.

----------

Bren, 

Charlieshafer, 

Folkmusician.com

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## Bertram Henze

> There seems to be an entitlement mentality that musicians are more important than the business owner's needs.


Such musicians exist, but normally an agreement can be arrived at, as long as it's reliable.
It's more a question of time scale: just like eating customers like to know in advance if they will get a seat before driving miles and miles, so will musicians. The danger of suddenly being rushed out in a matter of minutes is something I would not put up with.

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## Charlieshafer

> Such musicians exist, but normally an agreement can be arrived at, as long as it's reliable.
> It's more a question of time scale: just like eating customers like to know in advance if they will get a seat before driving miles and miles, so will musicians. The danger of suddenly being rushed out in a matter of minutes is something I would not put up with.


I'm assuming that the being rushed out was a one-time thing with the change in management. After that, everyone knew the score. Regardless, you're not the business owner, so "not putting up with it" is the business owner's prerogative, not ours.

Tobin is exactly right, though. The musicians who act entitled don't do anyone a favor. We need places to play, and "attitude" doesn't endear us to anyone. You can run a very successful club or bar without live music, so the fewer chances we as a group give owners a chance to give up on us the better. It's why a few local places have dropped live music through the years; late to soundchecks, wanting food or free beverages, especially on a slow night, playing too loud, taking too many breaks. I've heard the complaints from more than a few owners. They go to open mics, and the crowds are bigger, everyone is smiling, and business is better.

As a musician, you can't make an argument for being a great value unless you increase the bottom line above and beyond what your fee is. Arguments saying that the ambience live music creates don't wash from the standpoint of a business. If a business owner is willing to lose money having you play, why should you be so insistent on getting a certain amount of pay? You become a charity, in the eyes of the business...

----------

Bren, 

catmandu2, 

Folkmusician.com

----------


## catmandu2

Reading your post Charlie - brings back a memory..i remember one night in a band and a club where we were popular - it was surprisingly very slow - I felt reticent when we took our cut.  They cheerfully provided throughout the night as usual though - total pros and a great place to play.

About how the scene can go wrong: I don't recall where or with whom as was long ago - one night the jammers come in (to a virtually empty room), deploy in their usual places, and several immediately sidle up to the bar and start ordering (provided gratis by the club).  One of those times I'd wished I wasn't present.

----------

Charlieshafer

----------


## Bertram Henze

> "not putting up with it" is the business owner's prerogative, not ours.


Of course, but the decision to not attend is still ours. That's all I'm saying. I wouldn't complain, I'd just not go. This is about session, not gig, and playing on my toes, ready for egress, would kill the fun for me.

Fun, OTOH, is no substitute for quality. If the sessioneers play well, enough customers will like it enough to keep up the financial foundation. If not, well...

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## billkilpatrick

Just for the record, has anyone arrived at the gig expecting to be paid, only to discover you ain't?

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## leftus maximus

We've made the place a lot of money and brought in many new customers over the years, and established the place as a session venue in the country, where other session musicians seek out the place. This session is of pretty good quality.

Obviously I'm not objecting to the place looking after number one, but when you turf out the players regularly when people have traveled miles to get there and planned their day around it then it can be an issue, especially when you're asked to play outside in the winter.

The fact their advertising revolves around this session is also a problem.

Believe me there is no sense of entitlement on my part. I've played in many sessions and know how these things work. They work when there is a balance, communication, and manners on all sides. When that breaks down then the session is finished.

----------

Bertram Henze, 

Tobin

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## allenhopkins

Well, I'm off tonight to play with my friend Jim Clare on the porch of the Gridley Inn in Waterloo NY.  "Tip jar" only; I'll let ya know how it goes.  Waterloo is the "birthplace of Memorial Day," usually a lot of people milling around over this weekend.  We'll see...

----------

Folkmusician.com

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## William Smith

> Musicians just have to learn to choose. Do you want to not get paid or not work ?


Sometimes it's nice to give your time for a benefit if it's a good cause! Our band has done this on numerous occasions and it led to more paying jobs!  :Cool:

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## Bertram Henze

> Just for the record, has anyone arrived at the gig expecting to be paid, only to discover you ain't?


Twice, decades ago, when I was playing in a band:
#1 a publican told us our performance had been so pathetic he couldn't spend the money (and he had a point - that was the gig after which we fired our guitarist)
#2 a festival organizer told us he had totally miscalculated the costs and was out of money - after we played.

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## billkilpatrick

> Twice, decades ago, when I was playing in a band:
> #1 a publican told us our performance had been so pathetic he couldn't spend the money (and he had a point - that was the gig after which we fired our guitarist)
> #2 a festival organizer told us he had totally miscalculated the costs and was out of money - after we played.


Ugh … that's awful.  I don't believe there's a great reckoning that awaits us on high … but for some, I trust the instant of death will be very long, very lucid and very uncomfortable.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Ugh … that's awful.  I don't believe there's a great reckoning that awaits us on high … but for some, I trust the instant of death will be very long, very lucid and very uncomfortable.


Some, they say, are damned. But you, I know, will walk the streets of Paradise, head high and unashamed.
(James Plunkett, Strumpet City)  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## jshane

Well-- after reading all 85 comments- and understanding the validity of the points raised in the vast majority of them...

I find myself feeling depressed that EVERYTHING in our culture and society has transmogrified into revolving around money/business/and profit to the virtual exclusion of everything else.

I get it, I suppose.... but I also remember that it wasn't always so completely and exclusively this way.  I hope, at least for my kids sake-- and their kids sake-- that we can find a way to make "the economy" a little less of the monotheistic religion it has become.

Think I'll go play my mandolin....

----------

Frankdolin

----------


## Frankdolin

> Well-- after reading all 85 comments- and understanding the validity of the points raised in the vast majority of them...
> 
> I find myself feeling depressed that EVERYTHING in our culture and society has transmogrified into revolving around money/business/and profit to the virtual exclusion of everything else.
> 
> I get it, I suppose.... but I also remember that it wasn't always so completely and exclusively this way.  I hope, at least for my kids sake-- and their kids sake-- that we can find a way to make "the economy" a little less of the monotheistic religion it has become.
> 
> Think I'll go play my mandolin....


Well said my friend, well said.

----------


## Charlieshafer

> I find myself feeling depressed that EVERYTHING in our culture and society has transmogrified into revolving around money/business/and profit to the virtual exclusion of everything else.
> 
> I get it, I suppose.... but I also remember that it wasn't always so completely and exclusively this way.  I hope, at least for my kids sake-- and their kids sake-- that we can find a way to make "the economy" a little less of the monotheistic religion it has become.
> .


Ah, but it isn't. It's just different, like pretty much everything else in this new century. Music has simply gone to the internet for the young who are just starting out. The days where a band would play a local club, build a following, and hope to make a demo, get some local airplay, and go big are long gone. That's ok with me as a presenter. 

You can say that the younger audience now has their heads buried in their phones, and yeah, it's too much for my taste, but when I hear them talk about what they're looking at, at least musically, it's far more broad in taste and genres than we ever had it. I've got high school kids in the fiddle club who are always showing me videos of the "next big thing" that a friend that they met on vacation, who may live in California, is sending to them. So I'm getting high-def video of a young string band just starting out, in he middle of nowhere, 3000 miles away. And they're good. And I hope they stick with it long enough that I can bring them east.

So what's happened is that the younger generation aren't hanging out in a bar just to listen to music, they're going for the social interaction, swapping stories. Open mics are fun for them because they're part of the action, not just a beer swigging spectator. If a venue does have a live band they go to see, once they see it, great, no need to see them again. I find an interesting demographic trend occurring in that if I have a band come through the first time, it'll be a mix of young and old. If I bring them back a second time, when one would think attendance would increase as I'm "building their brand" and word of mouth spreads, the opposite actually happens. Older folks will return, but the number of 20-somethings and younger drops precipitously. They've been there, done that.

I'm thinking this is, in part, what the bars that cater to local bands are changing. The young demographic, which is the money-spending set, isn't into the same thing over and over, it's all about discovery. There are only so many local bands that can play a bar, and once they've been around the block, it's time to move on.

Like everything else, it's always changing, time to adapt yet again. But depressing? No way, there's more great stuff out there than I've ever seen. And doors are opening to them in ways that never happened before. Yes, you can make some money playing acoustic music, but you have to travel, and play unconventional venues.

----------

Bill Findley, 

billkilpatrick

----------


## Bertram Henze

> find myself feeling depressed that EVERYTHING in our culture and society has transmogrified into revolving around money/business/and profit...


Well, the thread title says Play for free, it does not say Play in vain. Because we never do that.




> Think I'll go play my mandolin....


That's exactly the right thing to do.

----------


## Austin Bob

> Ah, but it isn't. It's just different, like pretty much everything else in this new century. Music has simply gone to the internet for the young who are just starting out. The days where a band would play a local club, build a following, and hope to make a demo, get some local airplay, and go big are long gone. That's ok with me as a presenter. 
> 
> You can say that the younger audience now has their heads buried in their phones, and yeah, it's too much for my taste, but when I hear them talk about what they're looking at, at least musically, it's far more broad in taste and genres than we ever had it. I've got high school kids in the fiddle club who are always showing me videos of the "next big thing" that a friend that they met on vacation, who may live in California, is sending to them. So I'm getting high-def video of a young string band just starting out, in he middle of nowhere, 3000 miles away. And they're good. And I hope they stick with it long enough that I can bring them east.
> 
> So what's happened is that the younger generation aren't hanging out in a bar just to listen to music, they're going for the social interaction, swapping stories. Open mics are fun for them because they're part of the action, not just a beer swigging spectator. If a venue does have a live band they go to see, once they see it, great, no need to see them again. I find an interesting demographic trend occurring in that if I have a band come through the first time, it'll be a mix of young and old. If I bring them back a second time, when one would think attendance would increase as I'm "building their brand" and word of mouth spreads, the opposite actually happens. Older folks will return, but the number of 20-somethings and younger drops precipitously. They've been there, done that.
> 
> I'm thinking this is, in part, what the bars that cater to local bands are changing. The young demographic, which is the money-spending set, isn't into the same thing over and over, it's all about discovery. There are only so many local bands that can play a bar, and once they've been around the block, it's time to move on.
> 
> Like everything else, it's always changing, time to adapt yet again. But depressing? No way, there's more great stuff out there than I've ever seen. And doors are opening to them in ways that never happened before. Yes, you can make some money playing acoustic music, but you have to travel, and play unconventional venues.


Good observation Charlie. The world is changing faster than we can ever imagine, even if we try to stay on top of things. I work in technology, and there are 1000's of ideas out there, any one of which could be the next big thing. It is extremely hard to keep up because it is so technical in nature.

I'm a baby boomer, and like most of us, the small towns we grew up in are not the same. Gone is the downtown commerce center, local factories and many other things. It is depressing for me to go back home.

Don't get me started on retail. We often discuss the music stores here, but every single business sector has had to either adapt and change, or die. I could fill a very long post with big, household brand names that are no longer around, or on their last legs.

I won't be around in 100 years, but I sometimes think about what the world will be like. I wonder if the people who end up playing the instruments I have now will even know the musical heritage that inspired me to play them.

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## allenhopkins

> Well, I'm off tonight to play with my friend Jim Clare on the porch of the Gridley Inn in Waterloo NY.  "Tip jar" only; I'll let ya know how it goes.  Waterloo is the "birthplace of Memorial Day," usually a lot of people milling around over this weekend.  We'll see...


Post-performance report: Jim got sick, so I did the gig solo (no mandolin, sorry).  Small crowd at the bed-and-breakfast, but I did get to play for an actor impersonating Theodore Roosevelt.  In his honor, I did _White House Blues -- "Roosevelt's in the White House, doing his best/McKinley's in the graveyard, taking his rest"_ -- and _Battleship of Maine._

Bottom line: $59.00 in tips, balanced against a 90-mile 'round trip for a 90-minute gig, including setting up my Fishman SA-220, mic and other paraphernalia.  Glad, in retrospect, that we didn't need to split the take!

So you see why I'm not doing it for a living...

----------

Bill Findley, 

Charlieshafer, 

Folkmusician.com

----------


## Folkmusician.com

While $59 is by no means enough to justify it from a professional standpoint, if it was a small crowd, it is a respectable amount and I would in no way feel taken advantage of.   :Smile:

----------

allenhopkins

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## billkilpatrick

> While $59 is by no means enough to justify it from a professional standpoint, if it was a small crowd, it is a respectable amount and I would in no way feel taken advantage of.


Still … 60 bucks for 4+ hours driving and 90 minutes of music is pretty discouraging.  Playing for free is perfectly acceptable if you (a) want to do it and (b) aren't made to feel exploited by doing so.  I used to play with a group of medieval singers/musicians in town but the buzz wore off when it started to seem like work - unpaid work at that.  If I had studied and worked on a repertoire - had an "act" - I'd be very put out if someone asked me to perform for nothing - not just disappointed but insulted as well.

----------

allenhopkins

----------


## catmandu2

If we break it down to shear monetary terms, sure, such pay for the hours expended is peanuts.  A person can likely equal or surpass this much if they picked a good street corner.  So, why do we do it?  Obviously it's more than a pecuniary motivation.




> ...Making people want to play or dance like you is not enough, they must want to *be* like you, their lives must feel dreary and empty without you.


Perhaps.  But I'm not as aware of this potential, if it exists, as I am the music itself being the catalyst, the 'kinetic' symbol of transference/transcendence.  I seek performing opportunities as I witness the effects that music evokes in people.  It's an irrational basis, in terms of its pecuniary justification, yet it is a very strong compulsion.  I guess, in addition to all the other things I derive from music, it is most fundamentally a mode of communication.  This is why money is an afterthought in my music-making.  Since I'm not a professional nor working hard at it (other than my natural inclination), I have the luxury of this orientation.

----------


## Astro

I occasionally participate in a "jam group" of very talented music friends. This occurs on the front porch of a very popular restaurant. All the folks who show up play in various bands around town but we do this one for fun and because we like to play together. The quality of music is sometimes better than what is playing next door under a 5 dollar cover. We get lots of spectators. We do not put out a tip jar and we do not get paid but we never have to buy a drink. We are not working and have no agreement with the restaurant. We show up if we want and start when we please and break whenever. We do it for us and its my favorite thing to do. 

On the other hand, I will not do a show or a gig for free. I do 2-3 gigs per week with a fun band. But that is work. Set lists, coordinating with band members, playing what others want to hear, staying halfway sober, hauling stands and mics and sometimes the whole PA. No way. Gigs dont pay much here but most of the places we play now have some kind of house PA. When we have to bring ours, I often ask myself why we are doing it. Its a lot of work. No way doing that for free.

So I guess my answer is, yes I will play for free when its play(my terms). BUT no I will not gig for free.

----------

Charlieshafer

----------


## Bad Monkey

our usual line is "we play because we love it, but it's gonna cost something to have us hump gear, set up, and tear down."

----------

Astro, 

farmerjones

----------


## catmandu2

> ... I will play for free when its play(my terms). BUT no I will not gig for free.


That's succinctly put   :Smile:   pretty much my credo too I guess.  At my age, I'm less inclined to work at it, and just look to venues where I can play as I would at home - just sharing my joy.  I've done it too a lot of ways, but hit upon this as natural selection I guess.  When I was younger, I was more willing to compromise  :Smile: 

But I certainly understand folks who put a lot of craft into it.  I've done my share of that, and I guess reap the benefits there from.

----------

Astro

----------


## allenhopkins

> ...I would in no way feel taken advantage of...


And I don't.  Today I did a one-hour job at a seniors' residence eight miles away, for $55.00.  Tomorrow a similar performance on the other side of the city, for $60.00.  No PA other than my little Amp Can, minimal set-up and take-down.  Wednesday, another seniors' assisted living apartment complex, patriotic songs (Memorial Day theme), $100.00 for that.  Friday and Saturday, two days of 19th-century music at Granger Homestead in Canandaigua, school kids Friday, general public Saturday, $100.00 each (four-hour) day.

This is how it goes.  Annual bookings run $15K-20K or so.  "Big jobs," when I bring in other musicians, are infrequent, but the seniors' gigs and the historical programs are pretty steady.  I have 157 gigs on the books for 2017, and doubtless will get 30-40 more bookings before year's end.  It's sorta like a "job," except it's playing music, so it's fun as well.  

And there are freebies scattered among the paying gigs, if they seem interesting and worthwhile.  Having the paid jobs makes me more accepting of non-paying gigs, since I don't feel "exploited," and taking or not taking the free jobs is my choice; I'm not desperate to get chances to play, plenty of those already.

Just glad I don't have to buy the groceries or pay the cable bill out of what I make playing music.

----------

catmandu2, 

Mark Wilson

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## catmandu2

With a schedule like that, I would need a clerk to schedule, organize me, load and unload the car..  I gave it up just when I thought I wanted a roadie!  ;0.   I hate this stuff, but I'm a lousy business guy.  You're no doubt good at it and don't mind it.

Curious, do most of the venues you play have stands, mics and stuff?  Many of the larger places have that stuff and amps/PA too - which alleviated much of the gear-hauling.  That was a nice thing.  Some folks use headset mics which is a good solution for that -

----------


## Beanzy

Interesting to see how this state of affairs affects the choices of youngsters. My 17 year old son is very involved in music, playing across the country. Even singing at the first night of the proms this year, touring in Italy with his jazz orchestra then returning for another Albert Hall concert this time playing violin, he also does college gigs with his rock band, and plays trombone in yet another jazz orchestra. Anyway for all that his life revolves around music, he says he'd never consider being a musician to earn a living. He want's to study Physics or Astro Engineering when he leaves school. 
Even having grade 8 violin & trombone under his belt and a BTec in music & studying composition as an extra curricular course plus being a pretty slick guitarist,  at 17 he just doesn't see it as a viable option to build a good life. 
Among his cohort it seems to be the same, numerous very talented & creative youngsters just writing music off as an option for making a living.
Youngsters used to dream of being musicians if they had any talent at it (& many without), but there seems to be a disjuncture happening where it's mostly the ones who seek the celebrity side of it who now go forward using the industry to access that, but those pursuing the skills don't see it as viable.
Is the industry eating it's own tail with this free music culture? Maybe I'm being unduly concerned.

----------

Astro

----------


## catmandu2

Ya music was a 'trade' eh?  As many trades are slowing now, with increased socioeconomic mobility, tech, etc.

How many times have you heard? - "Ya there was a guy around here who used to do that..."

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## allenhopkins

> With a schedule like that, I would need a clerk to schedule, organize me, load and unload the car..  I gave it up just when I thought I wanted a roadie!  ;0.   I hate this stuff, but I'm a lousy business guy.  You're no doubt good at it and don't mind it.
> 
> Curious, do most of the venues you play have stands, mics and stuff?  Many of the larger places have that stuff and amps/PA too - which alleviated much of the gear-hauling.  That was a nice thing.


1.  I'm not necessarily "good at business," but I'm organized enough to keep spreadsheets of my gigs, check off payments when they come in (and chase after them when they don't -- most of the seniors' jobs involve payment _after_ the performance, by check from the financial office, or even from "Corporate" in some distant state), and do a fair amount of promotion (mailing list, e-mail list, website etc.).  I keep tax records and pay income tax on what I make; I record business expenses, mileage etc. and send 1099's to the musicians I organize to play "band jobs" when they come up.  Not a huge burden; my "day job" was in municipal government financial management and budgeting -- this is _tres_ easier.

2.  Most of the venues I play don't have PA capabilities; I'd be surprised if I get to use "house sound" half-dozen times a year.  I own four "PA systems" of different sizes, from the Fender Amp Can I use to play in a seniors' facility, to an 8-channel 300-watt Sampson system that I use a couple times a year, for big dance gigs, outdoor festivals where I do sound for other musicians, etc.  I use the Amp Can the most, the Fishman SA-220 SoloAmp next, a Fender Passport 150 for some band jobs, and the Sampson the least.   I keep a small 5-channel mixer that I can use to extend the Fishman or the Fender when I'm working with other musicians.  For microphones, I like using condenser mics, but I have a couple cheap dynamics for the seniors' jobs with the Amp Can.  And I have a number of boom mic stands, with clamp-on side booms for instrument, since I only use mics, not instrument pickups.

And I carry my stuff around with me, set it up and take it down.  It's a hassle, but I'm used to it, though at age 73 I can visualize a not-too-distant time when lugging the big system, putting speakers up on stands, etc. will be too much for me.  The Fishman column is a real blessing there, since it's gutsy enough to use outdoors at a farmers' market, or in a 300-seat auditorium, but it transports and sets up real easily.  Since for solo gigs I usually bring 3-5 instruments, I do a good deal of fetchin' and carryin'.  That's most of the exercise I get.  Vehicle-wise, I drive a 2010 Honda Element, and I recommend it as a musician's transporter; too bad Honda quit making them.

----------

catmandu2

----------


## StuartE

> My 17 year old son is very involved in music <SNIP>
>   at 17 he just doesn't see it as a viable option to build a good life. 
> Among his cohort it seems to be the same, numerous very talented & creative youngsters just writing music off as an option for making a living.


Sounds like you have a very talented and committed son.  There's no reason he can't combine music with another career. It's rare, but can be done.

_Denny Zeitlin (born 10 April 1938, in Chicago, Illinois) is an American jazz pianist, composer, and a clinical professor of psychiatry at University of California, San Francisco. Since 1963, he has recorded more than 35 albums, including more than 100 original compositions, and was a first-place winner in the Down Beat International Jazz Critics' Poll in 1965 and 1974. In 2014, JazzTimes contributor Andrew Gilbert wrote that "by any measure, Zeitlin's creative output over the past 50 years places him at jazz's creative zenith."[1]_

(from wikipedia)

----------

Beanzy

----------


## Folkmusician.com

> Youngsters used to dream of being musicians if they had any talent at it (& many without), but there seems to be a disjuncture happening where it's mostly the ones who seek the celebrity side of it who now go forward using the industry to access that,


I imagine most of the younger generations, still have an interest in fame. In the past, there were a few standard options for this. Sports, music, and film. Each having a few main offshoots that had the opportunity for fame and fortune.  

Even pre-internet, these options were constantly expanding. How many televised sports are there now? How many genres of music?  Now factor in the absolute explosion of the internet and it is crazy. There are tens of thousands of ways to be famous on YouTube alone. There are plenty of YouTubers earning more than Hollywood stars or rockstars. 

Video killed the Radio Star. MTV did damage, YouTube is nailing the coffin shut.  Most teens that want fame, will be looking to youtube (and rightly so).

Even on the audio only side. Would someone rather put out an album, or launch a Podcast?  
Go tour around playing bars, or start a travel blog and take off around the world?  
There is now fame in simply being successful. Good at something? You make a course, and promote yourself. 

I have been watching all of this happen and it is mind blowing, how quickly it changed the landscape.

----------

Beanzy, 

Charlieshafer, 

DataNick, 

RustyMadd

----------


## Charlieshafer

Yes to Robert's post. If anything, it is far easier now to get exposure, promote yourself, and jump start a career. Here's a story that illustrates what I think Robert's point is.

I had the pleasure of helping an Irish band get their touring career going in the U.S., maybe 12-13 years ago. They already had international success, and the flutist, Alan Doherty, had done all the wood flute work on the Lord Of The Rings soundtrack. Their name was Grada, and they had just been signed by Compass, and were looking to break into the U.S. Having a common friend, I was happy to help them book their first tour and find an agent. After all these years, they're still my favorite Irish band, live. More so than Solas, Dervish or any, Grada connected like an audience with no other. Anyway, long story short, after 10 years of touring hard, 200+ nights a year, literally all over the world, a few agents changes, playing major festivals, etc., they decided to call it quits. Having become really good friends with the band through the years, to the point where they'd stay at our house for weeks on end while touring New England, they shared with me that after all that, they'd just sold the last of their cd's, and essentially broke even. No big houses, yachts, fancy cars. What they did have was a lifetime of amazing experiences, the opportunity to tour the world, make millions of friends, and at least be able to look back satisfied that they'd made some great music. 

Considering the investment in money and time they had to make, breaking even isn't exactly the measure of success from a strictly financial standpoint. You can achieve the same level of publicity now with a bunch of youtube videos, made in the privacy of your own home. 

So, yeah, music as a career can be filled with the same pitfalls as any other career, but you can make money...maybe. What are the goals of a musician? Money? World peace and happiness? A number of bands I've worked with have a short shellfire, and they didn't seem to care. Their goal was to have fun, travel, have new experiences, and see what happens. If it failed, so what? They had a great time, and are probably better business men and women than may MBA's because if what's entailed in running a touring band. 

So playing for free? If it's the "feel good", community-building and healing powers of music that bring you to playing music, why not play for free? Thousands of doctors every year travel from around the world to take months off their careers to help in poverty-stricken areas, and don't want a dime. If you really want to get upset when someone asks you to play for free, maybe it's time to stop worrying about music as a source of income. Money is an illusory reward anyway, whatever you do make, you'll just blow it on something irrelevant.

----------

Polecat, 

Teak

----------


## billkilpatrick

> Yes to Robert's post. If anything, it is far easier now to get exposure, promote yourself, and jump start a career. Here's a story that illustrates what I think Robert's point is.
> 
> I had the pleasure of helping an Irish band get their touring career going in the U.S., maybe 12-13 years ago. They already had international success, and the flutist, Alan Doherty, had done all the wood flute work on the Lord Of The Rings soundtrack. Their name was Grada, and they had just been signed by Compass, and were looking to break into the U.S. Having a common friend, I was happy to help them book their first tour and find an agent. After all these years, they're still my favorite Irish band, live. More so than Solas, Dervish or any, Grada connected like an audience with no other. Anyway, long story short, after 10 years of touring hard, 200+ nights a year, literally all over the world, a few agents changes, playing major festivals, etc., they decided to call it quits. Having become really good friends with the band through the years, to the point where they'd stay at our house for weeks on end while touring New England, they shared with me that after all that, they'd just sold the last of their cd's, and essentially broke even. No big houses, yachts, fancy cars. What they did have was a lifetime of amazing experiences, the opportunity to tour the world, make millions of friends, and at least be able to look back satisfied that they'd made some great music. 
> 
> Considering the investment in money and time they had to make, breaking even isn't exactly the measure of success from a strictly financial standpoint. You can achieve the same level of publicity now with a bunch of youtube videos, made in the privacy of your own home. 
> 
> So, yeah, music as a career can be filled with the same pitfalls as any other career, but you can make money...maybe. What are the goals of a musician? Money? World peace and happiness? A number of bands I've worked with have a short shellfire, and they didn't seem to care. Their goal was to have fun, travel, have new experiences, and see what happens. If it failed, so what? They had a great time, and are probably better business men and women than may MBA's because if what's entailed in running a touring band. 
> 
> So playing for free? If it's the "feel good", community-building and healing powers of music that bring you to playing music, why not play for free? Thousands of doctors every year travel from around the world to take months off their careers to help in poverty-stricken areas, and don't want a dime. If you really want to get upset when someone asks you to play for free, maybe it's time to stop worrying about music as a source of income. Money is an illusory reward anyway, whatever you do make, you'll just blow it on something irrelevant.


"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered" - George Best.

----------


## RustyMadd

> We no longer live in a culture that intrinsically values music as a part of social life, and the musician’s role is not that which it has been throughout most of history, so I don’t think the "old rules" apply any more, and I don’t think the term "professional musician" is very helpful - musicians do and always have played for fun as well as for profit, sometimes both at the same time, sometimes only for one or the other. This is not generally true of surgeons, for example, or lawyers, to name just two "professions".
> Personally, I would rather play for a pittance for 20 people who listen and respond than for "real money" for a couple of hundred who treat what I’m offering them like the wallpaper - it’s nice that it’s there but doesn’t really warrant much attention.


I completely agree. My own children don't care to legitimately support even their favorite artist. They scam, scab, steal, trade, do anything except pay the fair price for music. And this all while completely aware of the near impossibility of a lucrative career in music. Yet do they stand their ethical ground and insist on paying fairly for music? No. They are weak and unethical.

Welcome to the 21st century.
Now let's all go over Bob's house and have us a mountain jam of epic proportions. ;-)
Peace

Oh and yes some doctors, lawyers, and bands do free things....while their bank accounts bulge from their legitimate pay. Yes some do find time to give away their gifts, but almost without exception, after they've been paid elsewhere.

That isn't the same as a struggling artist. And it isn't the same when Chris Thile donates a performance either, because no one expects from the beginning for him to perform for free. And nor should they. "The worker deserves his wages."

----------


## dhergert

Mmm, well, yes, but...

As said earlier, _it is the economy._  

Door number 1 = keep your day job to pay for your musical "hobby" so you can play for free or even pay-to-play when you want to, and maybe get paid sometimes.

Door number 2 = put everything on hold and maybe risk loosing everything for a 99-to-1 gamble that you'll be able to pay your bills on a musician's fees.  

Door number 3 = get mad and put music on the shelf, and complain about the economy, about free players and free venues, about everything else that seems to have had a relationship to that decision.

There was a time when I worked at being a full-time bluegrass musician...   A dear friend who started and was in a relatively famous bluegrass band in the 70s and 80s once explained it to me:

Look at an old metal bucket.  That is the world of music.  Filling most of the bucket are the successful musicians from every genre.

At the bottom of that bucket, right next to the rust and sand and mold and gunk and all the other debris, are all of the successful bluegrass musicians.

The people who are trying to be full-time musicians of every genre, but not successfully, and those who have decided to just play music for the fun of it, are the rust and sand and gunk and all the other debris; when you turn the bucket over and empty it, most of them stick to the bottom of the bucket; music is a part of them, and they are a part of music.

It is really about competition.  If you can't or won't compete with the other successful bands and also with all the people who just play music for the fun of it, maybe that's just the nature of music telling you to keep your day job and enjoy music on the side.

Music is going to continue, as it always has, in the hearts of those who love it.  You can't suppress it.  It will come out on the back porches or in the barns and garages, in the showers, on the road, on the trail, in the elevator or in the bathroom, in the dorms and classrooms and churches and hospitals, in the farms and ranches and factories and offices, inside those whistling or breathing tunes all day long at work or at play, in all the places where it always has existed.  If there is ever a time when money for music doesn't exist anymore, music will continue.

----------

Charlieshafer, 

Mandoplumb, 

Teak

----------


## Astro

Music, golf, surfing, snow skiing, sail boat racing, art, pottery,  or anything else that a lot of people enjoy doing as a fun hobby or creative outlet and as a passionate big part of their life -- anything like that is a difficult occupation to make a decent living out of. Only a very tiny % ever will. How many passionate and talented golfers are able to make a living from golf? You dont hear them complaining that people and society suck because they dont want to pay to watch them play. They just happily keep playing and make money elsewhere. Most artists and writers know they will never make money from it. Its just something they have to do. They dont blame anyone.

In a way, the huge numbers of obscure musicians are really lucky to make the little bit we do. How many artists, writers, or golfers can go do what they love for a few hours on a weekend night, get applause, beer, and come home with an extra 50-100 bucks?

Actually, we are lucky.

(shhh-doesn't mean I wont keep complaining)

----------

Charlieshafer

----------


## Bad Monkey

there's a huge difference in playing music for fun and community building, and working as an employee/contractor at a for-profit business. If someone wants me to play at their place of business to help them make a profit, I want to get payed.

----------

Warren H

----------


## Astro

> there's a huge difference in playing music for fun and community building, and working as an employee/contractor at a for-profit business. If someone wants me to play at their place of business to help them make a profit, I want to get payed.


I agree completely. Doesn't mean there is much of a market for your services though. I mean not for a comfortable living wage.

----------

Charlieshafer

----------


## Bad Monkey

Then best start practicing. 

nothing wrong with it being a part time job, either.

----------

Astro

----------


## Folkmusician.com

> In a way, the huge numbers of obscure musicians are really lucky to make the little bit we do. How many artists, writers, or golfers can go do what they love for a few hours on a weekend night, get applause, beer, and come home with an extra 50-100 bucks?


Great point!

While Golf is a great sport and the little bit I have played was quite enjoyable, you would have to pay me quite a bit to sit and watch a game.  I guess that honestly goes for a lot of music too though. 

A few weeks ago, Someone from Saga was over here and I met with them at the Atlantas Casino. We were up by a restaurant in a nice sitting area.  It happens we are by a Grand Piano. A couple of Girls sit down and start noodling. It slowly comes together and pretty soon people are gathering around. A couple more join in and within a few minutes they start nailing down harmonies and sound great. It almost brought tears to my eyes. I was incredibly impressed, but after a couple of songs, we got up and moved.  While it was great, we were in the middle of a discussions on the musical instrument industry and the performance was a distraction.  

I even feel guilty about it, but it doesn't change the fact, that we left the area due to live music.

----------

Astro

----------


## Jeff Mando

A lot of thoughts come to mind.  As my dear departed father would say, often in exasperation, "there didn't used to be this many people!"  Often used to explain what was wrong with the current state of the world, just as often used when he was driving out of town in heavy traffic.....

By that I mean, there was a time when not everybody played music, at least on a semi-competent level.  There was also a time when rock'n'roll was something new that could be marketed and sold.  I guess my version of my father's catch-phrase would be something like, "it ain't 1965, no more!"

I had two friends in the 60's who did pretty well with music, both as teenagers.  One had a local band who did very well at covering the Rolling Stones and that was enough to be booked regularly throughout the state, often playing two or three shows at a local roller rink and his band would make $3000 on a good weekend.  (Yep, that's $3000 in 1965 money!!!)  When he was in high school he made more than his dad did.  He drove a brand new Ford Mustang.  The other guy did EVEN BETTER.  Quit high school to sing and record and had a #1 and a #2 hit record, as well as several other Top 40 hits.  Both had a life most of us would only dream of, but unfortunately it was pretty much over for both of them after 4 or 5 years, as far as the big money was concerned.  But having been bitten by the bug, both stuck at it for the next 40+ years hoping lightning would strike twice.  It never did for them, money-wise.  Both were very talented and made some great music in their latter years, but I think early success was a curse for both of them.  I say that as a person who tried and tried to get my "foot in the door" but never got past the first or second rung of the ladder in the music business.  I have often wondered if it was better to have had early success and had it fizzle or to never have had the success and but kept the dream of having it alive?

I can't speak for the music scene of today, as I don't understand much about it.  Sure, you can have a million hits on youtube if you are popular, but that still doesn't make you a millionaire, does it?

----------

Astro

----------


## Teak

> So playing for free? If it's the "feel good", community-building and healing powers of music that bring you to playing music, why not play for free? Thousands of doctors every year travel from around the world to take months off their careers to help in poverty-stricken areas, and don't want a dime. If you really want to get upset when someone asks you to play for free, maybe it's time to stop worrying about music as a source of income. Money is an illusory reward anyway, whatever you do make, you'll just blow it on something irrelevant.


Well put, Charlie!

----------

Charlieshafer

----------


## leftus maximus

> Well-- after reading all 85 comments- and understanding the validity of the points raised in the vast majority of them...
> 
> I find myself feeling depressed that EVERYTHING in our culture and society has transmogrified into revolving around money/business/and profit to the virtual exclusion of everything else.
> 
> I get it, I suppose.... but I also remember that it wasn't always so completely and exclusively this way.  I hope, at least for my kids sake-- and their kids sake-- that we can find a way to make "the economy" a little less of the monotheistic religion it has become.
> 
> Think I'll go play my mandolin....


The thing is though it isn't about money. It's about basically doing what's right for everyone involved. If things aren't balanced then it doesn't work. 

I realise that's a vague response but each situation is different and there is no magic formula.

In my experience in sessions it's considered poor form if players don't get a drink on the house as acknowledgement for providing free entertainment, especially as musicians will spend money over the piece, making it a win win for the publican. Unless the players are terrible obviously!

On the gig side of things it's worth doing as long as you enjoy it. If it doesn't pay and you don't have a problem with it then fine, but if you do then change whatever it is you're doing wrong.

----------


## Astro

> Sure, you can have a million hits on youtube if you are popular, but that still doesn't make you a millionaire, does it?


Nope. Not unless it links to marketers and sells something else.

----------


## Charlie Bernstein

Welcome to the Amateur Age. Artists are dime a dozen these days.

I'm not a pro. My friends and I occasionally get paid, but we usually play for free - for parties, for nonprofit fundraisers, for open mics and jams, and just for fun.

I like getting paid, but I don't mind playing for free. There are, however a few things I DO mind:

- When they promise to feed you, then don't.
- When there's a cash bar and no one offers to buy the band beer. (I usually say no, but I always appreciate the offer.)
- When they treat you like hired help, even though you're not.

This is a rural state. We sometimes drive over an hour to get to these things. I mean, come on!

----------


## catmandu2

> 1.  I'm not necessarily "good at business," but ...


Sounds a lot like business to me.  No doubt you _are_  good at it.  (I'm terrible at it - my brain doesn't work well in those functions)




> ... 2010 Honda Element, and I recommend it as a musician's transporter..


I had a minivan - thought it was the pinnacle.  Super good.





> ...Actually, we are lucky.


Indeed.  To ply a trade that has overt social value, is quite versatile, etc.

Times are indeed different.  Business and social habits are changing and outpacing our 'grasp' just as is technology.   Still, from an ecological purview it isn't difficult to understand dynamics if we take the trouble to be analytical.

----------

allenhopkins

----------


## Warren H

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I've seen enough to realize that a lot of you are giving it away. Some of us think of this as a problem. First off, you're being taken advantage of. It doesn't matter how much you want to get on stage, if you do it for nothing you set a precedent not only for your band and yourself, but create expectations that anyone playing hillbilly (or Celtic, etc.) music should play for free.

More than 40 years of gigging has made me realize that people are, by and large, tone deaf. The typical listener can't discern good songs played well from raw beginners scratching at banjos and mandolins. If you don't think you music has any value, ask yourself why someone wants you to play music for their event or at their business. It doesn't matter if you are new at this or seasoned pros, your time has value. If you also provide sound, check what PA rentals cost in your area and charge, at the very least, the price of equipment rental and set-up--plus the fact that someone has to run that PA.

It's hard enough getting paid a decent wage without constantly being undercut by bands playing for nothing. While I love to play, and jam frequently with whoever wants to pick, I'm careful about undermining myself and the many players in my neck of the woods who make all or part of their living from playing gigs.

My sister is a harpist living in Dallas, Texas who has been a gigging pro and studio musician for around 50 years. She has toured with Sinatra and played with everyone from opera companies to The Moody Blues. A couple of weeks ago someone asked her to play a gig for $75. After she regained her composure she explained that union rules didn't allow her to move a harp for less than a hundred bucks, much less play a gig. Too many players in her market are playing for little or nothing and devaluing working pros. She has taken a day job teaching college students about music for the first time in her life since the music scene is full of players working for less than their time is worth.

In my woodworking business I charge an hourly rate of $60/hr, which is far less than an auto mechanic or plumber charges around here. Using that as a guide, I can gauge the value of my time and try to charge accordingly, taking into account drive time, equipment, and the actual time spent playing.

Sure playing on stage can be fun, but I can stay home and watch TV if I want to NOT make money. If I'm overcome by the urge to pick, I'll find someone who wants to jam or pick up an instrument a play by myself.

----------

DataNick, 

RustyMadd

----------


## dhergert

> ...
> Sure playing on stage can be fun, but I can stay home and watch TV if I want to NOT make money. If I'm overcome by the urge to pick, I'll find someone who wants to jam or pick up an instrument a play by myself.


Just more musing. And I'm saying this respectfully and gently to you and to others who feel this way... 

So what I hear you saying is that you don't want to compete with people who play for free then.  That is anti-competitive in my book.  The point of competition is to rise above competitors by offering more than they can offer to the people who pay for the product.  If a person is doing music full time, they have time to discover and cultivate those things to offer.  I'd suggest that is the solution.

Of course many of us agree that at least part of the problem is that the pie is getting smaller and smaller by virtue of economics and by virtue of the number of people who want the pie.  Maybe a day job teaching college about music is an excellent solution.  Of course it could be said that teaching may create more people who eventually want the pie, but generations do exchange roles over time.

As someone who does play for free when I want to, and who also has a day job so I don't have to worry about pay for music, I'd say that's the ideal way to do it -- just for fun.  For me, if I didn't enjoy doing it just for fun, I wouldn't want to do it.  This does have caveats though...  I never get as much practice as I'd like, I'm not 100% free to schedule any gig because I do work a day job, and lately, I have limited energy for night and weekend jobs.  But still, that would be my mode of choice.  I tried the full-time music direction, and it took all the fun out of doing music for me.  Sitting at home and watching TV instead of playing music -- by choice whether for free or for pay -- would be a horrible endpoint for me.

And at the same time, there are those artists who do rise above our level and actually make it doing music full time.  We here and in other communities know their names and their products, and we love them for what they do and how amazingly well they do it, and we don't begrudge them their fair share of the pie.

----------

Charlieshafer, 

Folkmusician.com

----------


## Folkmusician.com

> I can't speak for the music scene of today, as I don't understand much about it. Sure, you can have a million hits on youtube if you are popular, but that still doesn't make you a millionaire, does it?


A million hits gets you very, very little. $1000 (give or take) in advertising revenue, and the chance to do more valuable marketing. So maybe a million hits can be worth several thousand.  This seems terrible, until you realize that a million hits is not many in the YouTube world and it all compounds.  A band that did their homework, could make a whole lot more targeting Youtube, than they can playing gigs. This is before they launch a Patreon account and also do Kickstarter for new albums. Crowdfunding works.

You start getting a significant amount of views on YouTube, now manufacturers will be wanting to give you instruments for product placement. If you are big enough, you can charge. It doesn't stop there.. clothing, beverages, etc..

Once you have the following, you now launch into ecommerce and start selling merchandise.  The list goes on and on.

I am not talking about some major band here. You don't even have to be good. You just need video skills, marketing skills and take the time to study it. Past YouTube, you don't have to do any marketing at all. If you are getting the views, everyone will try to be part of it. Link to your Facebook page, and BAM, hundreds of thousands of people click over. Same for your Crowdfunding. 

Many of the views will be from people that don't like what you are doing, but can't help but watch. A good portion will be from other musician's trying to figure out why you are so popular, when they are better musicians. Does't matter, as it still helps you.  :Smile: 

It is not just heading there, it is already there! The business model has changed. Musicians can earn a good living without gigging, but they have to rethink it and embrace the change.

Of course, once you do this, then you have the fan base to get good paying gigs. But the initial effort is better utilized attacking YouTube.

----------

DataNick

----------


## catmandu2

Warren, one thing though - like everything else in this fast changing socioeconomic world, the work force/musician too must adapt to changing conditions.  For example, there are many opportunities now that formerly either didn't exist or were more rare - clinical settings, film/video/mixed-media, 'guesting'/various appearances, education (as you'd mentioned), etc.  No, it isn't Sinatra, but modes change (how long has it been since folks have been able to expect to be paid playing, for example, bluegrass, except for a wedding or holiday event or something, etc?).  I've seen many very good players spend some hours busking very successfully (I know harp isn't very convenient for busking).

----------

Folkmusician.com

----------


## Charlieshafer

> More than 40 years of gigging has made me realize that people are, by and large, tone deaf. The typical listener can't discern good songs played well from raw beginners scratching at banjos and mandolins. 
> 
> It's hard enough getting paid a decent wage without constantly being undercut by bands playing for nothing. 
> 
> .


Like Don, I'd like to be as respectful as possible here, but statements like this bother me. I think the general public has a very good ear, in general. It's why the cream rises to the top. If there was no general ability to appreciate talent, there would be no Chris Thile, no David Grisman, no Beatles or Rolling stones, no icons in any form of music. It's why people who aren't educated at all in classical music always perk up when they hear something by Mozart, or the "Ode To Joy." It's why there are craft beers, artisanal foods, or any niche, exclusive product. It's also why any musician even pretending to want to "make it" needs to totally understand modern marketing. 

The most interesting problem here, and in other posts, is the complaint about being undercut by bands playing for nothing. That immediately puts an economic ranking on the product, and I know the word "competition" has been used before, correctly. People, as in an audience, and businesses who are looking to make more money, will gladly pay for perceived value. Every time. If a business doesn't feel that your product is worth the extra money, and won't help them make more money, they're not buying from you. Period. In this case, you're simply not adding any value above what a guy willing to work for less brings to the table. You need to be have a better product, that simple. Same goes for the folks buying concert tickets. I'll pay $100 to go see someone truly special, perhaps a classical soloist of renown, or a great band. But I'd have a hard time paying $20 to go see some new band or performer that may have potential, but still doesn't have the skills or resume yet. 

I also find it interesting that most of the people complaining about being pushed out are those that have been playing for a long time. Perhaps it's a simple case of missing the boat in terms of how you make a living in music now. But, as I said before, the skill level of the younger players is now so much higher than the generation before, I find it very difficult to book the older players and expect an audience to show up like they would for some of the younger, more original and skilled players. There's just not the excitement level for the same old stuff anymore. 

This sounds harsh, but of your competition for gigs is those who play for free, you need to completely reevaluate your business model. You're either trying to sell your skills to the wrong customers, or your skills aren't right for the new world we're in.

----------

dhergert, 

Folkmusician.com

----------


## sbhikes

I have a day job. Being a musician is a hobby. I sometimes play at the farmer's market with some other people. Yesterday we made lettuce, cabbage and real money. About $75 for about 3 hours of playing. In addition to lettuce, cabbage and real money, we also got garlic, kale, radishes and honey. Pretty awesome. Sometimes we play for other gigs and get free potluck and sometimes we get food, booze AND money. Sometimes all we get is fun, usually when the gig has to do with children. That's good enough for me.

I've recorded a CD. What an awful experience. That's work and work sucks. Even playing for three hours straight is work. Standing up like that hurts my feet after a while, and all that strumming and picking hurts my shoulders and trying to stay "on" and not get sloppy hurts my brain. Being a musician as a career would not be fun at all. Nevermind fame, which would ruin your whole life. Why would anybody want to be a musician??? A friend of mine actually IS a musician, but she's a card-carrying member of a union. You'd have to be in a union in order to survive the mental, physical and spiritual exploitation. It's hard work but people think it's FUN so they think they can just ask you to do whatever they want and pay you very little. It's not fun when it's work. It's fun when it's fun.

So that's why I limit myself to busking and playing gigs for various good causes that pay us in potluck dinner.

----------


## allenhopkins

Some quotes:

A columnist in _Sing Out!_ magazine: _"It's hard to make a living doing something that lots of people are willing to do for free."_

A mandolinist who just won $2 million in a lottery, asked about his future plans: _"I guess I'll just keep playing until that's gone too."_

My old _Murphy's Law_ calendar: _"Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you can do it for a living."_

----------

Astro, 

Charlie Bernstein, 

DataNick

----------


## Austin Bob

Folks, it could be worse. Bowling is one of the most popular recreational activities out there, but very very few make a living. Quick, name three pro bowlers? Ok, just one? If you drop below 25th place, your earnings fall below 50K. Hardly rock star money.

My brother in law is a very good bowler, he has bowled two 300 games in his lifetime and averages around 230 or so in league play on a good year. He plays one day a week on average, and occasionally gets an extra practice day in, but work and family keep him busy.

 If he was that good in golf, he could be a pro at some country club somewhere and make a semi decent living teaching rich folks how to play golf.

No one wants to pay to watch bowling, so almost no one makes a decent wage. 

Yep, it's the economy.

----------


## jim simpson

I remember the great bowler Earl Anthony. He sported a cool flat-top for many years.

----------


## Jeff Mando

Kingpin movie -- Bill Murray & Woody Harrelson  :Laughing:

----------


## Astro

Yea its much harder to get paid bowling. I've tried it in numerous bars and got thrown out of every one. Never even got a tip.

----------

Austin Bob, 

Charlie Bernstein, 

Charlieshafer, 

Tobin

----------


## dhergert

Can you even bowl in a bar?  (I'm ignorant, I don't drink.)

 :Cool:

----------


## Astro

> Can you even bowl in a bar?  (I'm ignorant, I don't drink.)


Yes of course but you have to set up your own pins. And usually you only get one frame in so you have to make it count.

----------

Charlie Bernstein, 

Charlieshafer, 

Mark Wilson, 

Turlagh

----------


## Mandobart

> Can you even bowl in a bar?  (I'm ignorant, I don't drink.)


No, but you have to drink in a bowling alley.

----------

Charlie Bernstein

----------


## Charlie Bernstein

> Folks, it could be worse. Bowling is one of the most popular recreational activities out there, but very very few make a living. . . .


Man, that's one of the only three sports I've ever watched all the way through on TV. That and roller derby and the Kentucky Derby. (Hm. The Brits call derbies bowlers. Coincidence? Cosmic cluster-cluck? You be the judge . . . .)

----------

Jeff Mando

----------


## Charlie Bernstein

> I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I've seen enough to realize that a lot of you are giving it away. Some of us think of this as a problem. . . .
> 
> . . . Sure playing on stage can be fun, but I can stay home and watch TV if I want to NOT make money. If I'm overcome by the urge to pick, I'll find someone who wants to jam or pick up an instrument a play by myself.


Thoughtful thoughts. Thanks!

But, if I may point out, watching TV isn't fun. Of course I wish I could make a living playing music, but I'm not that good. I suppose I could sell all my instruments to people who will do them justice, but that's not fun either. They can have 'em when I'm dead! 

Or as you say, I could just play in my bedroom. But how much fun is THAT? Getting together with friends to jam is fun, but it's far from enough. (Read: My name is Charlie and I'm a pickaholic.)

Like you and your sister and my sister and most people, I've also struggled to make ends meet. There's always someone who will do what I do for less than what I'll do it for. Life isn't fair. Life is life.

So once a week, I actually PAY to play. Yup. I drive about an hour to a bar I like ($5 for gas), buy a beer ($3.50), leave a tip ($1.50), and wail away with the other folks who go there to pay to play. And if I count my time at minimum wage, that's another $30 or so.

But that's just an old karmic fact of life, right?: _Pay to play_. No matter what your idea of fun is, one way or another, you pay to play. This way is a lot more straightforward and a lot less painful than some.

So keep on pickin' and kickin'. You're right, the alternatives aren't attractive.

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Folkmusician.com

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## Austin Bob

Sorry guys, I wasn't trying to derail the topic, I'm simply pointing out that just because you're good at something doesn't mean you get paid. But in retrospect, it's not a valid comparison as musicians are considered to be entertainment, and bowlers - meh.

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## mandroid

Is  playing in a 'Praise band' an in-kind donation to your church, and so, Tax  Deductible?

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## Charlieshafer

> Is  playing in a 'Praise band' an in-kind donation to your church, and so, Tax  Deductible?


Eeek... very sticky. What about a choir singer? Just as musically valuable in the life of a church, and if you try deducting that, you'll be spending some time in the pokey. I'd advise against trying that one!

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## Loubrava

> Thoughtful thoughts. Thanks!
> 
> But, if I may point out, watching TV isn't fun. Of course I wish I could make a living playing music, but I'm not that good. I suppose I could sell all my instruments to people who will do them justice, but that's not fun either. They can have 'em when I'm dead! 
> 
> Or as you say, I could just play in my bedroom. But how much fun is THAT? Getting together with friends to jam is fun, but it's far from enough. (Read: My name is Charlie and I'm a pickaholic.)
> 
> Like you and your sister and my sister and most people, I've also struggled to make ends meet. There's always someone who will do what I do for less than what I'll do it for. Life isn't fair. Life is life.
> 
> So once a week, I actually PAY to play. Yup. I drive about an hour to a bar I like ($5 for gas), buy a beer ($3.50), leave a tip ($1.50), and wail away with the other folks who go there to pay to play. And if I count my time at minimum wage, that's another $30 or so.
> ...


Pay to play, nothing new there I've read almost all the posts here and agree with em & feel for the "pros" that can't make it or barely scrape by, talented guys/gals who have put in the time have awesome chops but end up with day jobs to make ends meet. The only difference I see in this day and age is there are a lot less places to play then there was 20-30 years ago. In SF they used to do a "pre-sale" at some great clubs where you got booked then had to pre-sell a set number of tickets to your show then you would get a percentage of the gate and bar gross depending on the club. They always had a 1-2 "free" drink for the band. We did 3-4 of those shows and barely made it out of there with gas money the last one we did we had to actually pay the club owner to settle the bar tab that was the last straw for us. A year or 2 later they banned the "pre-sale" thing not sure exactly who "they" were I just read about it in a newspaper and laughed knowing the club owners would find another way to get over on somebody. Now a lot those clubs are gone. i never had the chops/talent or balls to go all in the music biz. but respect the hell out you boys & girls who do. 
Now my "band" gets together 2-3 times a month & play for free in a barn. Do a few partys or bar gig once in while & joke about playing for free. We all all feel real lucky to still be making music to us it's not work just having fun. The more things change the more they stay the same.
Lou

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## billkilpatrick

I was once told by someone who worked on Broadway that the casting directors referred to dancers/singers/musicians as "talent" … i.e.: "Thanks, talent we'll let you know" - live performance treated as a commodity.  Obviously it would depend on the venue but the attitude expressed in the original post suggests that people who organize events, book bands/artists, etc., may recognize that live music is better than something from out of a can but that doesn't mean they're willing to to pay for it.

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## Polecat

> ...Some of us think of this as a problem. First off, you're being taken advantage of. It doesn't matter how much you want to get on stage, if you do it for nothing you set a precedent not only for your band and yourself, but create expectations that anyone playing hillbilly (or Celtic, etc.) music should play for free.
> 
> More than 40 years of gigging has made me realize that people are, by and large, tone deaf. The typical listener can't discern good songs played well from raw beginners scratching at banjos and mandolins. If you don't think you music has any value, ask yourself why someone wants you to play music for their event or at their business.


With respect, I couldn't disagree more. I often play for what a "professional" musician would regard as a laughable rate - I'm not doing it for the money, but because I (and the audience, usually) regard it as a worthwhile endeavour. I also turn down gigs playing in an environment where the audience are likely to treat our music as wallpaper, as I described earlier - it's a thankless task, and I've known enough embittered professionals not to want to end up that way.

More than 35 years of performing publicly has taught me that far from being tone deaf, if you catch people in the right environment, you can affect an audience deeply, which in turn affects me. You need, to paraphrase Linda Ronstadt "enough technique to achieve what you are setting out to do", so scratching away like a rank beginner will not cut it, equally, only fellow musicians will be impressed if you play "Rawhide" at a breakneck tempo in A flat major - it is important to realize the difference between true musicianship and mere technique.

As regards the value of music, I think Charlie Shafer has put it better than I could:




> If you really want to get upset when someone asks you to play for free, maybe it's time to stop worrying about music as a source of income. Money is an illusory reward anyway, whatever you do make, you'll just blow it on something irrelevant.


I think that music (or any art form) is a little like sex - it's fantastic if you do it for love, but if you find yourself compelled to do it for money, you have got a problem.

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## Rick Crenshaw

> We never play for free, as it really screws other bands that may/may not need the money. Nothing worse than your local region being saturated with play-for-free bands/musicians.


This.

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## Jeff Mando

Yes to the above and taken to another extreme, I have always felt "professional" musicians were like any other professional  -- doctor, lawyer, etc. -- where it has taken years and years of study/practice/education to do what we do.  In other words, not everybody can do this!  That being said, and I do believe it, I have rarely been treated that well when it comes to getting paid.  Like previously stated, many club owners will treat you like the hired help or worse.  It has also been stated that there are only two times when a musician gets paid well.  One is New Years Eve, when the club recognizes a need for a band and is willing to pay for it, mostly because experience has told them there will be plenty of cash flowing that night.  Second is playing a wedding, believe it or not -- mostly because, most fathers-of-the-bride don't realize how little bands are used to working for -- "how much do you guys charge for a wedding?  $5000.  OK, that will be fine."  Treated like the professional I always knew I could be..... :Cool:  :Wink:  :Whistling: 

Now, if we could just figure out how to "upscale" those other 363 days in a year!  :Mandosmiley:

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## Austin Bob

> With respect, I couldn't disagree more. I often play for what a "professional" musician would regard as a laughable rate - I'm not doing it for the money, but because I (and the audience, usually) regard it as a worthwhile endeavour. I also turn down gigs playing in an environment where the audience are likely to treat our music as wallpaper, as I described earlier - it's a thankless task, and I've known enough embittered professionals not to want to end up that way.


The choir I play in has about 15 members on a given Sunday. Over half of us have been together for 18 years. That's a long time, and you get pretty tight after that long. 

I've been told more times than I can count that our ministry brought great joy/tears/hope/remembrance of those who have passed, etc. People will come up after the mass with tears in their eyes and thank us with all their hearts.

That kind of pay is worth more than any pittance I could get in a band. And yes, the congregation (audience) listens.

My point is that if trying to play for money is not getting anywhere for you, find another way to use your music to benefit others. You don't have to be in a choir, you can play for the elderly, schools, teach kids, etc. Perhaps the payback will be worth it.

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## Polecat

> My point is that if trying to play for money is not getting anywhere for you, find another way to use your music to benefit others. You don't have to be in a choir, you can play for the elderly, schools, teach kids, etc. Perhaps the payback will be worth it.


Not perhaps, *definitely!!*

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Austin Bob

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## Folkmusician.com

Obviously there are lot's of different venues, but I believe it is fair to say that most are driven at least partially (if not fully) by food and beverage sales. So me, being me.  I had to do some quick searching…

Approximately 80 percent of nightclubs will falter and go out of business in their first year, according to the National Club Industry Association of America. Bars fare somewhat better because customers’ focus more on drinking than dancing. Drinking means revenue and dancing means cost, because you have to pay the DJ or band to keep the party going. If you can get past the first-year hurdle, Entrepreneur indicates that you can reasonably expect a return on your overall investment in three to five years.

So no return for 3-5 years and an 80% chance of failure in your first year. Now industry statics say you have a better chance of success with limited entertainment. This isn't owners being greedy, it is survival.

The average consumer orders 2.3 drinks per occasion with males ordering more than females and Millennials ordering more than the older consumers. (Apparently this has actually declined).

The industry standard is 400-500% markup with the exception of happy hour and specials.
So lets say average small bar, selling domestic beer at $4.00. To keep it simple, lets say the beer cost is $1. Making the average customer worth less than $7 gross profit.

The industry is extremely labor-intensive: average annual revenue per worker is $60,000. 

For reference:
Google and Facebook, the two most efficient companies, generate $1M per revenue per employee per year. Setting aside those exceptional cases and focusing instead on SaaS companies, the typical average revenue per employee is about $190k to $210k per year.

Other industries: 2015
Oil (268) = $1,271,251
Utility Services (194) = $549,288
Financial Services (726) = $548,464
Health Care (226) = $463,456
Basic Materials (442) = $440,658
Autos & Trucks (134) = $423,382
Telecom (121) = $421,770
Food & Agriculture (268) = $327,839
Construction (233) = $321,662
Technology (265) = $311,790
Industrials (458) = $300.074
Retailers & Wholesalers (401) = $284,727
Transportation (206) = $248,941
Consumer Goods & Services (342) = $172,278
Business Services (261) = $154,404

For a neighborhood bar or a nightclub, the labor operating cost benchmark ranges from 18 percent to 24 percent. For a bar inside a restaurant the operating cost benchmark is approximately 30 percent.  

I don't know how tips are factored into this, so that could skew things.

Depending on the menu and pricing strategy, the cost benchmark for food items ranges from about 29 percent to 32 percent of total food sales. I also assume this is more labour intensive than drinks.

Anytime a band brings more people in, expenses climb as well.  Security being one. If someone gets hurt fighting, or whatever, and the venue did not provide adequate security, we know what happens. And it is very possibly considered negligence and the insurance company may recover any losses.  I know of this happening on more than one occasion. One involved someone getting ran over in the parking lot and paralyzed.  This wasn't some rowdy night. A fight was started by a Wedding Party. The bar had a band playing and should have foreseen the need for more security.

I don't know all the expenses involved with a bar, but just looking at these basic numbers, we see that it could easily be 75% of gross revenue. A band is going to have to bring in a significants amount of extra business to give any type of ROI. More likely the band will be a loss.  

Let's say $100 per man with a 4 piece band. The band needs to bring in an additional $1600 in gross sales to break even. One customer drinking domestic beer is worth $9.20 ($4 x 2.3 drinks). 25% profit =  $2.30. $1600/2.3 = 696 customers!  Now say these numbers are way off and the bar nets double per customer at $4.60. Now we only need 348 customers.  And this is above and beyond the customers that would have been there had the band not been booked. Customers probably drink more than average on nights with bands (just an assumption), and we know some are ordering more expensive drinks, etc..  So let's double net profits one more time! So let's give a full $9.20 net profit per customer.  This 4 piece band now has to bring in an additional 174 customers for the club to break even.  174 customers should be doable, but simply breaking even is not enough if the club is going to consider having bands on a regular basis.

I think it is quite clear why venues are not paying. It is extremely difficult to get a return on a band. I imagine most clubs are well aware that they are taking a loss on the entertainment and considering it a marketing cost. This only goes so far though. If this marketing doesn't create a large loyal clientele that regularly comes and spends money, it doesn't make sense to have entertainment at all.

Let me be clear, that I don't like the situation. I would love to see more support of musicians, but anytime things get tough, entertainment is going to be the first to go, since it has a very low ROI.

I don't doubt that there are owners taking advantage of bands, but I also don't believe these owners are raking in profits at the bands expense. The number just don't add up.

Single biggest thing to take a toll on paying gigs. Tightening DUI laws. I am sure most all of us agree that these are good and highly needed, but it also took a major toll on bars/clubs and even restaurants. It was the beginning of the end for the heyday of live music.

I can't imagine that this same basic math doesn't apply to farmers markets, festivals, or virtually anyplace that might have live music that is funded by some type of sales.

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Austin Bob, 

dhergert, 

Tobin

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## Charlieshafer

Wow, excellent research, Robert. This is the conclusion I've been coming to for some time, and have been working with younger musicians with for the past 5-6 years now. The days of the local gigs are over. There are a number of ways to get your music out there that pay, but they're unconventional. But in terms of a gigging band, you either tour or you're just background music playing for chump change at best. To tour, your chops have to be first-rate, and that's up to today's standards. The market is being flooded not just by Berklee, East Tennessee, or Belmont grads, but by classical conservatory grads who find that playing string band/bluegrass music is more fun. From the looks of the average age of poster in this thread, there's no way 50+ year old fingers are keeping up with top-notch 20 year old fingers.

While there's a movement among artists, started mostly by the likes of Jayme Stone or Ruth Ungar of The Mammals, to book their own tours, it takes years of touring to get to know how to do this and who to contact. So you need a good agent, that simple. And good agents are reluctant to sign "baby bands" because they're tough to get placed, and because they command a lower fee, there's less of a percentage for the agent. So they're less profitable and tougher to book. Top that off with what usually happens: after the two year mark, and they haven't hit the Grand Old Opry or City Winery (going old-school or hipster, here) they assume it's the agent's fault and switch agencies. They start to get going, but they don't realize that the first agent laid all the groundwork for their success, and that it takes a good three years to get off the ground. So all that work for little money, and the initial agent is left not only with a former client who is probably dissing them, but is missing out on the profits of all the hard work they put in.

So don't be surprised, if you don't have a really good track record, or good internet buzz, if you don't get an agent. And that is why, all you old-timers who don;t get the internet, you need Youtube hits. When ANYONE, either an agent or a venue, is looking to book someone, the FIRST THING WE DO IS LOOK AT YOUTUBE HITS!! Get it? Few hits means a tough sell. Many thousands of hits means more built-in recognition and more potential ticket buyers, and more income, and less risk. This is why the social media departments at any label are humming. Kids down in Nashville at Belmont in music marketing courses make extra money from record labels just tweeting and instagramming bits about all the up and coming artists the labels want to succeed. It's all about hits. Facebook videos of shows that audience members put up. When I hear about unknown bands that don't want their performances recorded and posted, I cringe. Just give up now. It has nothing to do with video or sound quality, it's all about number of hits, number of videos, number of links, hashtags, all that. Name recognition is the new thing.

So there you go, some free marketing advice. But for one last time, if you actually think you're getting pushed out of gigs by bands playing for free, you need to find better venues. The old venues don't want you anymore. Period. Stop lamenting the old days. If better, performing-arts style venues don't want you, then maybe a career choice is in the offing. It's an unforgiving business. You gotta remember the great quote from one of the top agents in the music business from years ago. When his assistant rushed in and told him that Elvis had just died, he just looked up and said, totally straight-faced, "Good career move." And he was right.

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## Jeff Mando

Robert -- you lost me, buddy, when you described a business that works on a 400-500 percent markup!  Buy a beer for a buck and resell it for $4 bucks.  Do that hundreds and hundreds of times a night.  Kinda hard for me to feel sorry for the bar!  Sounds like a license to print money.  I say "share" some of that windfall with the band, for Pete's sakes!  Kinda like when I find an underpriced instrument at a pawn shop and buy it -- I don't feel real sorry for the pawn shop, their job is to KNOW what stuff is worth.  In fact, I feel happy -- for myself!!!  :Cool: 

We played a bar every Wednesday for about a year and a half.  We got $50 a man and it was a blast.  I found out years later the bar wasn't paying us -- turns out the female bartender was paying us out of HER TIPS!  I guess she must have been making $500 a night in tips.  Thanks, Michelle!  :Wink: 

My point being, even some of these tiny old fashioned bars still pull in some real money.  Hard to take the bar's side of the argument, IMHO........

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## Austin Bob

Excellent post Robert! While the numbers may be different for some areas of the country, the logic is spot on. You did however omit the liquor license, which can be very expensive in some areas. 

Bands HAVE to provide a return on investment. If you pay a band $400 and the sales go up $400, that is NOT a break even point. If you're interested, here's a good read on the costs of opening and running a bar. If you do well, you can expect to break even in two years.

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## CarlM

> The point of competition is to rise above competitors by offering more than they can offer to the people who pay for the product. If a person is doing music full time, they have time to discover and cultivate those things to offer. I'd suggest that is the solution.





> Perhaps it's a simple case of missing the boat in terms of how you make a living in music now. But, as I said before, the skill level of the younger players is now so much higher than the generation before, I find it very difficult to book the older players and expect an audience to show up like they would for some of the younger, more original and skilled players. There's just not the excitement level for the same old stuff anymore.


Respectfully I will say, that while I do not know Warren personally, I have heard him play and do personally know some of the people he has performed with.  And again respectfully, realizing that you probably do not know the people involved, but if you did you might be a little embarrassed to say these things.  One banjo player has toured and recorded with legendary players on groundbreaking recordings and tours including at least one prominent desert island recording.     One fiddler, who Warren has performed with regularly is one of the most respected fiddlers in the Missouri - Iowa tradition and has recorded in Nashville with prominent artists.  Warren plays at a level with those kind of players.  It is certainly not a case of not competing or younger players having better chops.

These guys do often play for the "tens of dollars" gigs and benefits.  And they do love the music.  And times have changed with younger audiences going to watch younger players, some who play great music and others who play loud to cover up but play a certain "style"..  

I think everyone recognizes that with an audience of fifteen or twenty people that there is not $500 to pay the band without failing the business.  We all know venue owners who love the music and do everything they can to support it without putting themselves in bankruptcy.  We also all know venue owners who whine about thin margins and plead poverty while going home to a new 5000 square foot house on ten acres in their second new SUV to plan their vacation.  That money comes from somewhere too.  The musician is lectured about greed and not focusing on the money but tell that to a business owner and they will squeal.

There has to be fair dealing for all parties.  Sometimes the money just is not there then the musician has the option to cut the venue some slack but at a certain point it comes down get paid or don't eat if that is how you make your living.

Aside from that there is a place for things like open mics in places that also pay for real bands on other nights.  They serve as a place to serve a kind of apprenticeship, to try out things, to learn performing.  Otherwise how do you learn it?  And there is a place for low pay/ tip only gigs at things like public farmers markets where probably most of the vendors are there as much for fun as profit, public senior dances and the like where no one is making any money.  But public, profit making venues should pay fairly for services rendered and not expect others to subsidize their profit margin.  If they cannot then maybe their business is not viable.

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## Beanzy

If a bar can't make money while paying for their unique selling point, then they can't make money or need to choose a different selling point. That's what's happening, they're going from selling the chance for the audience to see good bands to giving the illusion of the same thing. It's up to the bands to look at why they're deciding to involve themselves in that. If it's exposure, then exposure to whom? Is that really your audience & is it worth accessing them by lugging the kit out & spending the time involved?  If it's experience then is this the right place for your band to serve its internship? It could just be a chance to play in front of an audience & keep your chops up to speed, so you're using the place as a practice room with a live audience to get your stuff ready for real gigs, or have a chance to feel what it's like to gig infront of people. None of those look like a situation where someone is being done out of payment. But none of them are more than the bottom of the barrell in terms of value for your time & effort. I think many bands may mistake these for a real gig.

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## allenhopkins

1.  Thanx to Robert for his exhaustive and detailed financial analysis -- but no one needs to tell me that trying to run a music club is a high-risk business.  Even more so for a coffeehouse, because you don't make the profit on lattes that you do on alcohol.  People who get into the business, are often either musicians themselves, who like being around other musicians, want to promote and further their music, and like hanging out in music clubs -- so why not run one of your own?  Reality sets in pretty quickly; I know a local Irish musician, son of a long-time Irish radio host here, who opened a club in a small satellite town, hoping to serve dinner, have a well-stocked bar, and feature Irish music, local, regional and touring.  He lasted less than two years.

2. But, folks, *you don't have to play clubs to play music for money!*  Really!  There are lots of other possibilities.  I play 175-200 gigs annually, and maybe half a dozen are club jobs.  There are parties and weddings, seniors' residences, libraries, museums, historical societies, local and regional festivals, fiddlers' fairs, town concert series, churches, schools, colleges, farmers' markets, crowds at bus stops, septic tank cleanings, your cousin's birthday.  We get fixated on playing bars, and get swept up in the dicey economics of that scene.  I played clubs pretty regularly 30 years ago -- back when they were foggy with tobacco smoke, left the big-screen TV on during our set (only turning off the sound), and expected three long sets, 9 p.m.-1 a.m., for maybe $50 per band member.  And we supplied the sound, set it up and took it down.  I was working a day job then, and _loved_ those Thursday work-night gigs.  And my boss loved my Friday productivity level, I'm sure.

I'm doing five gigs this week: one pass-the-hat at a bed-and-breakfast, three seniors' residences, and a two-day daytime job at a local restored homestead -- school kids Friday, general public Saturday.  They add up to $475 total, which won't finance my condo in Aspen, but is enough to put gas in the car, batteries in the tuners, and even a new C harmonica.  No complaints if I don't play another club date until October, which is what I'm scheduled for.  In the meantime I'll do family picnics, fund-raisers for ethnic festivals, Civil War re-enactors' dances, a couple of town arts festivals, and a bunch of seniors' gigs.  Even a museum in Cattaraugus County, if you know where _that_ is.

There's more than one way to skin a cat (to make a new banjo head), and more than one kind of place to play music for money.

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Folkmusician.com

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## billkilpatrick

Years ago, my father worked at Sikorsky Aircraft.  One of his duties was to accompany Igor Sikorsky whenever he was invited to speak at local Universities, meetings, etc..  Returning from somewhere they stopped at a place to get something to eat and Sikorsky was confronted with a here-to-fore unseen juke-box.   Neither he nor my father were much into rockn'roll and after listening to a succession of 45's, he said the people who ran the place had it all wrong - what people will pay for is silence.

There's a link to an illustration (no. 3) in the original post, the sentiment of which prompted me to start the thread:  "Can you show Joanne how you designed our business cards?  I don't want to pay you for doing them."  I've had no where near the amount of experience some of you have had in dealing with tight-fisted bar owners, et al. but what little experience I have had was mostly of the "I don't want to pay you" variety.  I can only remember two times when it all went well.

I was also hoping the thread would produce some quotes which could be worked into a song - sort of a troubadour's lament - to be sung at closing time, in the hopes that whoever did the hiring would pay-t-f-up ...

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## billkilpatrick

Bartender says: "And (will you) bring people?" 
Musician replies, holding up a copy of People Magazine: "Sure, I always have it with me!"

… more "heh" than "Ha-Ha."

----------

Austin Bob, 

Beanzy

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## Bren

> Neither he nor my father were much into rockn'roll and after listening to a succession of 45's, he said the people who ran the place had it all wrong - what people will pay for is silence


We reached that point some years ago. It was what I alluded to in my earlier post with the term "music-saturated".

Thanks especially to Robert for his breakdown of the costs of running a bar/venue. Many musicians don't want to hear this, but are more comfortable with their assumptions that The Man is ripping them off somehow.

If anything, it's worse in the UK . Just staying open is costing the venue a fortune before they even sell their first drink.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a6853686.html

All this coincides with the market for live music - "folk" music especially - ageing and shrinking (ooh err), and the number of high quality players increasing. There is nothing mysterious about it if you look at the numbers.

I long ago concluded that, even if I was good enough to make money (I'm not) , I'd rather music was my hobby, my release from the daily grind, than my business.

And I know for sure which side of the bar I'd rather be on in a pub.

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## Randi Gormley

I'm one who would certainly pay for silence, but apparently none of the bars here (or restaurants either) subscribe to that philosophy. In at least two of them that I play session at, the people in charge can't wait for us to stop playing live music to put on the radio as loud as they can. And during the session, they start hovering every time we take a break to drink or decide who'll start the next set. They've even suggested we cut out early -- especially if the bar only has 2 or 3 customers -- so they can flip on the radio. it was explained to me that silence keeps the customers from drinking because other people can hear their conversations, so they cut short their partying and go some place private. As long as there is background noise -- and loud enough to drown out conversation -- people will hang around. I have no idea if that's true, but it certainly seems to be what the bar owner/bar tender appear to believe. Of course, there's also the people who just don't like the music we play, and can't wait to turn on a radio station to their particular pleasure. So even with "free" music, you can still get dissed! (I just realized it sounds like we're terrible musicians -- we're actually not and get a lot of audience appreciation in the form of tips and applause and occasionally whistles. but the people who ask us to play aren't the help, and to be forced to listen to 2 or 3 hours of Irish melody if you'd rather hear bluegrass or rock and roll does create some odd interactions).

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## catmandu2

Yes, they always flip up the machine during breaks.  Imagine how it would sound if at a concert and the band announced a break and ... silence.  No sound.  It kind of kills the 'celebratory' atmosphere (not to mention allowing 'bar talk' to be audible  :Sleepy:  ).  This does happen - street markets, restaurants, wineries and such - but that's not the vibe club managers go for of course.

Totally get the acoustic scene at bars - it's often not a good fit (ddepending on circumstances of course).  I imagine many staffpersons to not be so enthused about trad.  Even places that host sessions have been less supportive when someone would launch a ballad or a song (singing).

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## Bren

People actually appreciate it when the band (and sound system) takes a break at weddings. 

Ceilidh involves a lot of high octane dancing but in between there is a lot of chatting and catch-up (and drinking) to be done by guests who might not have seen each other for years..

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## RustyMadd

Well I think it is safe to conclude from this thread that playing for free generally screws everything up for the working professionals.
We may also conclude that the majority of people that post on this site, either do not understand the ramifications, or they simply do not care.

Either way, the situation is FUBAR.

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## Bren

I would conclude the opposite. 

The market isn't there any more, whether anybody plays for free or not.
It was a good party, but it's all over now.  

Blaming other musicians is ignoring the bigger reality.

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Astro, 

Austin Bob, 

Charlieshafer, 

Christine Robins

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## Polecat

> I would conclude the opposite.


Me too.

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## Astro

Well there is still a market for those who don't mind chump change.

At least in most urban areas there will be a small number of bar venues that define themselves with regular live music. I agree with Robert that they probably don't make more from the live music (and they know it) but its just how they decided to carve out their nitch in the market to distinguish themselves from the TGIF's and Applebee's. They usually hook up with local radio stations and get some advertising benefit from offering live music. And of course they brag they support local music(which they do).

But even with the music venues, the musicians willing to play for them far outnumber the available gig slots. I think some of the owners even feel sorry for us but the reality is they don't have to pay more so why would they. We're a dime a dozen. We're a lost leader. When you go to the store for something else and spot that big sack of chips on special for 99cents and grab it, you dont get to the check out counter and say well thats too cheap, let me pay you more for it.

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Folkmusician.com

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## Bad Monkey

> Yes, they always flip up the machine during breaks.  Imagine how it would sound if at a concert and the band announced a break and ... silence.  No sound.  It kind of kills the 'celebratory' atmosphere (not to mention allowing 'bar talk' to be audible  ).  This does happen - street markets, restaurants, wineries and such - but that's not the vibe club managers go for of course.
> 
> Totally get the acoustic scene at bars - it's often not a good fit (ddepending on circumstances of course).  I imagine many staffpersons to not be so enthused about trad.  Even places that host sessions have been less supportive when someone would launch a ballad or a song (singing).


We get around the pub blasting house music by having our own bumper. That way we control the volume (a bit less then when we are playing) the content (mostly us playing tunes that aren't in rotation at the time), and length (everyone knows when they should be back on stage). Last tune on the bumper is usually a jig or reel set that fades out after the first tune so we can take over seamlessly. makes for a better flow to the show.

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Astro

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## Bertram Henze

Anecdote alert!
I remember a business trip to a place called Rosenheim in the very south of Germany. It featured a lot of Bavarian cuisine and beers (wich are both completely lost on me, but let's not go into that), and, believe it or not, an Irish Pub. I sat there every night and passed the time chatting to the publican. He said this was the worst place for a pub to be, and he had given up staging live music because the typical local audience saw it rather like an educational experience: "they order one f#!1&ng cappucino and sit on it all night". 

It seems that is the choice you have with your favourite genre and the local culture - either what you do is exotic and you have no audience who know what's expected of them, or your genre is common and you face strong competition.

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Folkmusician.com

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## farmerjones

Wow, 7 pages, and I did read them all.  Y'know, it's never been easy to make good money playing music. Lots of blamestorming going on. I always ask the youngsters why they should even expect to get paid? True, know your employers business is a good start.  I love venues that have never had live music. This is my 1st timer's offer: I'll pay my band out of my pocket the first date, then you (as a customer) figure out how much more than having no band, you make. Then next time, we'll negotiate, and you as a customer will have more information.  Not only do we get at least two gigs, but typically we get paid for the first as well. If the guy was sketchy, he wouldn't even get the offer in the first place. 

On the surface, people think we get paid to play music. We get paid to promote our employer's product, and hump the gear to and from the gig.  Ever hear the tune: We Don't Sell a lot of Records, but We sure sell a lot of Beer. Well, in some cases it's wine.

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## Dave Martin

If I get to play the mandolin for one thirty minute set of our/my tunes where we don't have to set up sound, free is usually fine.

If I am playing the bass for four hours of cover songs, drive an hour to the place, set up, and be sociable, need to be paid.

Bill K., I think the hook for a new song, a lighthearted tune, might be "If we are playing Margaritaville, [[or Rocky Top]], I want to get paid."  If you want to do a co-write, I am fine with that....

**not that there is anything wrong with Margarita or Rocky Top.

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billkilpatrick

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## Astro

The rule in our band is that Wagon Wheel requires a 20 dollar tip. We announce that rule half joking whenever its requested. We have enforced that on occasion and got the 20 at least once. I might sell my soul, but I sure aint giving it away. We have refused it several times, claimed not to know it once or twice, and we have gone ahead and played it once or twice (hot, crippled, grandma, a kid). More than once we have made up non nonsensical words to the verse and done it straight faced. Like Marg. and RT, its a great tune the first few thousand times you play it.

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## catmandu2

> Well I think it is safe to conclude from this thread that playing for free generally screws everything up for the working professionals.
> We may also conclude that the majority of people that post on this site, either do not understand the ramifications, or they simply do not care.
> 
> Either way, the situation is FUBAR.


Whether you are correct in this, or others, or not.  What I should take away from here is a learning opportunity - seems like there are a few dynamics to consider, and some experiences from around the niche who've varied perspectives.   I'll bet each of us here has a valid point.  Needn't be so dour - there's still a whole lot of beauty and fairness in people.

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Folkmusician.com

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## Bren

> The rule in our band is that Wagon Wheel requires a 20 dollar tip. We announce that rule half joking whenever its requested. We have enforced that on occasion and got the 20 at least once. I might sell my soul, but I sure aint giving it away. We have refused it several times, claimed not to know it once or twice, and we have gone ahead and played it once or twice (hot, crippled, grandma, a kid). More than once we have made up non nonsensical words to the verse and done it straight faced. Like Marg. and RT, its a great tune the first few thousand times you play it.


My favourite ever mandolin request was "Can you play Duelling Banjos on that ukulele?"

I always have the same answer to requests for that tune, "Sure, if you bend over and squeal like a pig"

if they do, well, we play it. Fair's fair.

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Astro

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## billkilpatrick

Bren! ...

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## Eric Platt

The last band I was in would play for free if we decided it was a good benefit.  We were a duo, and I would usually let the other person choose.  Also, she works in a nursing home and I would often go there to play for the memory ward and or folks who were actively on their way out. In those cases I didn't expect compensation, but would often get a free meal.  

Sadly, since the band broke up, have discovered that a few of those free shows I was playing were actually paid and I never got my part of the money. Not enough to get upset about the money, but it does reflect on why we are no longer friends.

Am now part of a new project and I do expect that we will be paid for any possible performances we do.  Then again, the folks who are running this project are real professionals. (And actual friends).

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## billkilpatrick

> … Sadly, since the band broke up, have discovered that a few of those free shows I was playing were actually paid and I never got my part of the money. ...


That's cold.  "They" say money isn't important, but it is - especially when it's also the currency for honesty and respect.

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## Bren

I've played in a couple of bands where I was mainly doing it for fun but others really needed the money. In both of these the band leaders were scrupulous about sharing the money equally, after deducting their own expenses like mileage and PR/website etc. Even though we were also friends outside of and before the band

It's better in the long run. Like Bill said, honesty and respect.

Charity shows are interesting. I was speaking to a surgeon at another gig and he told me some truths about what happens to the money at the likes of kids' hospital fundraisers etc. (which I'm not going into here - let's just say that a few popular charities get about 90% of all public donations and they often end up with more than they know what to do with and then ...) These things are often run by well-meaning but naive and disorganised people. His advice was to give to local charities where you can see what's happening with the money.

As a businessman, I can see some of the mistakes they are making but I have enough stress in my day job so I take a strictly "plug and play" approach to gigs and don't get involved in band or function management.

This is all a bit off-topic but it's (peripherally) relevant to the general economics of live music.

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## Bertram Henze

> My favourite ever mandolin request was "Can you play Duelling Banjos on that ukulele?"


Things like that happen, and normally I am the one brewing vitriolic answers in advance. But the right moment never comes, mainly because the one asking is usually displaying such a dopey-eyed naiive sincerity (thinking he said something cool and sympathetic) that I just don't have the heart to burn him to ashes with my fiery breath. Instead, I magnanimously smile and say something like "#1 I can't play the ukulele, #2 we play Irish, not Bluegrass, #3 my parents were not related".

Dealing sensibly with true fans-to-be is part of entertainment (the importance of which has been mentioned earlier) and one of the keys to stabilizing the business part of the music. You want people to come back AND get more informed about your music.

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## farmerjones

I guess it's not for everyone, but I can be the P. T. Barnum and basically create gigs, or I can be the Joe Walsh of the Eagles, where he's basically an employee. But just because I choose to be just a journeyman sometimes, doesn't mean I don't know or haven't considered the bigger picture. Being able to stand in the other guy's shoes is so valuable. Not to preach, but the world would be a better place if everybody, could truly do this.

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Folkmusician.com

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## Dave Martin

We use to say "We will honor any request.  We do however, reserve the right to substitute a like and or similar sounding song in our opinion."

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Astro, 

Charlieshafer

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## allenhopkins

> We use to say "We will honor any request.  We do however, reserve the right to substitute a like and or similar sounding song in our opinion."


I usually say, "If you have a request, write it on a $20 bill, and pass it up to the band (or to me, if I'm a solo). We (I) will take these requests in serial number order, which is the only fair way.  We honor all requests -- at least, we honor the $20 bill..."

Don't get many requests -- though last night, at a seniors' gig, someone did ask for _Old MacDonald Had a Farm._  Really.  I treated it as a non-serious request, though.

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## DHopkins

"I'm sorry, we don't know that song but we know some with a lot of the same notes.  We'll try a couple of those."

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Charlieshafer

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## RustyMadd

Well what did we learn? The world is a fickle place filled with differing opinions, bereft of wisdom and cooperation. What can you say but, "he/she shot themselves in the foot." The unfortunate part is that the bullet ricocheted and wounded or killed everyone else in the room. I'd wish y'all blessings, except someone would probably get offended.

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## RustyMadd

It's the "economy"? Sorry sir but that is just huey! We are the economy, we make and break the rules of economics all the time. It is our collective ethics that determine how the economy functions and how monies are distributed. That is a fact and no amount of popular disagreement nor opinion will ever change that.

There are venues where it is always appropriate to play for free, and there are the rest of the remaining venues.

If it is the economy, why are investors making so much money? It's the same economy. Agh! What's the use. Cheers

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## pops1

We say "yes we take requests, no we won't quit"

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## allenhopkins

> We say "yes we take requests, no we won't quit"


Or, "We got lots of requests during the break, but we're gonna play the second set anyway."

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pops1

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## Tom C

We used to take requests but didn't know any of the tunes... "Get the heck off the stage", "Take mando lessons",  "Sing In Key"

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