# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  "Noodling" at Sessions

## PhillipeTaylor

Recently, a divergent understanding emerged among the fellow learners who attend our learning/slow session regarding what "noodling" is, what this REALLY means.  

All were in agreement that "noodling" during a session was understood to be rude and to be avoided.  I discovered, however, that many had different definitions of what "noodling" was, however. So, I wanted to put this question to the experienced hands here on the subject, so I can provide informed guidance.  

My Understanding: 

I have been told by a fiddler who taught my wife and I for a time that "noodling" at a session was trying to play along with the tune when you cannot play the tune all the way through at the tempo the group typically plays that tune.  Basically, if you can't play the tune well enough that you could lead the tune, and you try to play along, you are "noodling".  BAD!  

I have come to learn that some of the other learners in my group do NOT have that understanding of "noodling".  Some others have learned that "noodling" is trying to figure out the tune from scratch, which is not ok at a normal session, but often ok at a learning session.  But "playing along" when you kind of sort of "know" the tune is perfectly acceptable at "most" sessions.  

I was hoping for clarification on this point from advanced session goers so I can properly inform my fellow learners what the general consensus is (if there is one).   

Thanks! 

Phillip

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## Eric Platt

Will leave other sessions to those specialists - but at American old-time, Nordic and French-Canadian sessions that I attend, noodling usually mean playing in between tunes when folks are talking or figuring out what to play next. And that is a no-no. Unless you're the person coming up with the next tune.

Have heard both the other definitions, too. My own take is, especially at a beginner jam, if someone can lead the tune while others try to catch on, then it's just learning, not noodling.

I'm horrible at noodling along trying to learn tunes at a jam. It still doesn't stop me. Unless others stop the jam and tell folks to stop doing it. At which point I would probably leave and not return.

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JeffLearman, 

PhillipeTaylor, 

Ryk Loske

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## Jim Garber

I agree with Eric, however, to me the most annoying noodling occurs at a workshop and generally one in person (you would not hear the noodling on Zoom, assuming you were muted). That is when the teacher is trying to convey something and some of the attendees are practicing licks or phrases while he/she is talking. That is different to me than a session but there are some similarities. Maybe just the term “session” which to me is people playing tunes together rather than actually teaching or learning.

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Eric Platt, 

PhillipeTaylor

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## EdHanrahan

My interpretation of "noodling" is making _any_ sounds other than what the leader / organizer has decided should be played.  Might be a sign of boredom while waiting for a decision, or trying to figure out / recall the tune about to be played, or trying to impress the lady in the short skirt...  Done loudly, it's obnoxious, discourteous, and distracting.  Done quietly, it happens, and, assuming the purpose is valid, is more or less tolerated.  Done very quietly, most won't even notice (banjos need not apply!).

As someone who recently bit off the "2nd mandolin challenge'' in my mandolin orchestra (after 6 years on guitar), one statement really hits home:



> ... But "playing along" when you kind of sort of "know" the tune is perfectly acceptable at "most" sessions.


Absorbing, kind of sort of, several dozen 2nd mando parts at once has been, yikes, a challenge!  But I've been good at playing quietly when appropriate.

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PhillipeTaylor

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## Bren

I've been playing regularly at sessions around the world for 30 years or more and I don't think I've heard the term "noodling" used in real life.

However, I've seen it used a lot on "the session.org"

It mostly seems to refer to one or both of two things:
People trying various note combos while trying to hit the tune.
People formlessly improvising with a melody as if it were a set of chord changes for jamming.

I have seen both of these but, in the order of annoyance where flute or whistle (or maybe pipes) noodling is worst, then the quiet and gentle mandolin is way down the pecking order of annoyance.

Neither bother me too much and I'm occasionally guilty of noodling a bit trying to find my way in.

Then again, as the Shetlanders say, "Dee yr practising at hame!"

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Chris Calley, 

John Kelly, 

PhillipeTaylor

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## foldedpath

I'm not sure a consensus is possible because every session is different, but for what it's worth...

In my part of the Pacific Northwest USA in Irish/Scottish sessions and workshops, I believe noodling usually refers to impatient playing between tunes without actually starting a new tune. Just random noises from people who can't keep their hands off their instruments. 

There are Irish/Scottish trad sessions where it's acceptable to find your way into a tune that you mostly know, but don't have completely under your fingers, so you just leave out the notes you don't know. This isn't noodling to my mind. My fiddler S.O. once had a private lesson with Kevin Burke, where on one tune they were working on he said "just play the notes you know." 

I will do this sometimes on tunes that I almost have under my fingers except for a few squirrely bits, but it requires enough knowledge of the tune to actually "ghost" the notes you _know_ you don't know. Because the Golden Rule of Irish/Scottish sessions is to avoid distracting the people who *do* know the melody and are enjoying playing the tune together. Wrong notes are a no-no. But ghosting notes because you don't quite have that bit under your fingers isn't a distraction in a large enough group where others are covering the gap.

This is somewhat different in the OldTime jams I've attended, where there are so many repetitions of a single tune that people are sometimes encouraged to "find their way" into the tune. That's a different culture than Irish/Scottish trad. It may be encouraged in Irish slow beginner sessions, but not at the higher-level Irish sessions. Nobody will think less of you if you sit out a tune you don't know.

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PhillipeTaylor

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## DougC

There is nothing else to be said except that the size of the sessiun, makes a difference. If there are dozens of people playing, no one notices. But if there are only five players, then the one making 'noise'  will be noticed. 

Same goes for the personalities involved. The insensitive and loud people are much more of a distraction.



Sessiun Etiquette is the term that has developed regarding protocol at sessions.

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## JeffD

I have always thought "noodling" referred to aimless messing around on the instrument. Something better done at home, regardless.

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Jim Bevan, 

kookaburra, 

Mark Gunter, 

Simon DS

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## Sue Rieter

> I have been told by a fiddler who taught my wife and I for a time that "noodling" at a session was trying to play along with the tune when you cannot play the tune all the way through at the tempo the group typically plays that tune.  Basically, if you can't play the tune well enough that you could lead the tune, and you try to play along, you are "noodling".  BAD!


If that's the case, then how do any new players ever get up the nerve to jump in with both feet?

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## JeffLearman

I agree with Eric, to me, "noodling" means playing whenever you shoudn't be.  As a gigging musician at the pro-am level, it's pretty much understood that a few notes between tunes are OK, but only when necessary.  At the pro level, even that wouldn't be tolerated much.

Regarding how well you play during a song, well, that's a matter for the session.  If the session is all pro-level players, it'd be bad form to try to follow if you're not up to it.  In a beginner session, it would be expected.  But I wouldn't call it "noodling."  I'd just call it "annoying."

What I find is that in most cases, people who don't belong in a session usually figure that out before long.  I've been in that position myself!  Do your best, but if you don't belong, find one where you do.

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## foldedpath

> If that's the case, then how do any new players ever get up the nerve to jump in with both feet?


If new players scope out the local session and figure out what tunes they're playing, either recording the tunes on their phone or looking up the closest version on thesession.org, they can practice the tunes at home until they're ready to join in. 

That's how it works in my area anyway. Once you know the tune and can play it, it's easy to jump in with both feet. 

One thing beginners to Irish/Scottish trad sessions who come from other traditions like OldTime or Bluegrass don't realize, is that it's perfectly _okay_ to sit out a tune you don't know. You're not expected to play on every tune. Just play the ones you've learned and sit out the rest, it's okay.

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## Jill McAuley

> If that's the case, then how do any new players ever get up the nerve to jump in with both feet?



Learning the tunes beforehand makes it way easier to jump in, 'twould be way less nerve racking than trying to keep up with other players if ye don't know the tune well yet. The website below is a great resource for learning a lot of common session tunes:

https://irish.session.nz

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DougC, 

Ed McGarrigle, 

Eric Platt, 

gortnamona, 

Jean Andreasen, 

Sue Rieter

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## Eric Platt

> Learning the tunes beforehand makes it way easier to jump in, 'twould be way less nerve racking than trying to keep up with other players if ye don't know the tune well yet. The website below is a great resource for learning a lot of common session tunes:
> 
> https://irish.session.nz


My maybe related question is - how does one learn what the proper sets should be for the tunes? At least around here, it sounds like the learner sessions are organized around sets, not just tunes.

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## M19

75% of what Rick Wakeman plays on the keyboards is noodling.  :Laughing:

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## DougC

> If that's the case, then how do any new players ever get up the nerve to jump in with both feet?


Great question. Even experts learn 'little by little' but they learn pretty quickly; because they have developed skills in recognizing patterns and in listening, and in 'handling the instrument'. There is another skill, mostly overlooked, and that is in learning how to play with other people. Find another person, or group of people who support the beginner's situation. And gradually gain the experience of the shared tempo, critical personalities, noise and distractions to ignore while playing.

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Jean Andreasen, 

Sue Rieter

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## Jill McAuley

> My maybe related question is - how does one learn what the proper sets should be for the tunes? At least around here, it sounds like the learner sessions are organized around sets, not just tunes.


Yeah, that would be the norm for sessions. What sets are played would probably depend on the individual session in question. Experienced players who have a vast catalog of tunes underneath their fingers usually only need to hear a few notes of the next tune in a set to know what it is and keep playing. I think it's more common than folks think to be at a session and some of the players may pause for a couple of notes when the next tune in a set is played while they get their bearings as to what the tune is.

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Eric Platt

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## Mainer73

> If that's the case, then how do any new players ever get up the nerve to jump in with both feet?


Dunning-Kruger?

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## DougC

I had to look this one up. 
_
The DunningKruger effect is a  cognitive bias whereby people with low ability at a task overestimate  their ability. Some researchers also include in their definition the  opposite effect for high performers: their tendency to underestimate  their skills._

This is a common issue in all folk music gatherings, and probably an annoyance for more experienced players to have the 'overestimating beginners' join in. 

Slow Sessiuns developed as a response. 

Sessiun Etiquette helps to get both sides to manage the situation.

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## Ray(T)

Sounds like the opposite of “Imposter Syndrome”!

As for the original subject, I suppose I’ve “noodled” at every session I’ve ever been to over the last few decades but never had any complaints. If I was expected to learn all those boring diddly tunes off pat, I would never have bothered going.

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John Kelly

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## DougC

boring diddly tunes? I think someone is in the wrong forum...However the issue may be 'having to learn' the tunes_ before_ one attends a sessiun vs learning _at_ the sessiun.  

Noodling during the time in order to 'work out the mechanics of playing along' is a way of learning. No doubt. But how one does this, and how it is dealt with, involves some respect for the people and the genre. 





> Sounds like the opposite of Imposter Syndrome!
> 
> As for the original subject, I suppose Ive noodled at every session Ive ever been to over the last few decades but never had any complaints. If I was expected to learn all those boring diddly tunes off pat, I would never have bothered going.

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Jill McAuley

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## Simon DS

Everyones different, and everyones welcome -as long as they adhere to whatever is the agreed general consensus whatever that is (!)
One problem is that as soon as everyones comfortable then its: what-do-_we_-not-like time.

Noodling to me is a sort of loose improv. It can be annoying because theres often more than three people at a session and the result can be an acoustic muddy mess.

On the other hand I think its fine, at least with a mandolin to play the roots and fifths as the tune cycles through the different chord progressions. 
In this way you can get an idea of the important parts, and tidy it up the second or third time around. 
-but it depends.

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## foldedpath

> On the other hand I think its fine, at least with a mandolin to play the roots and fifths as the tune cycles through the different chord progressions. 
> In this way you can get an idea of the important parts, and tidy it up the second or third time around. 
> -but it depends.


At the risk of sounding like the Trad Police here, I think a problem with that idea is that the mandolin sits in exactly the same pitch range for tunes as the other traditional Irish melody instruments like fiddles, flutes, and free reeds. Any single note you play that isn't part of the actual melody line will sound like an attempt at harmonizing if it works, or a distraction if it clashes against the tune's melody. Roots and fifths are not guaranteed to keep you out of trouble.

There is a little more room to make a poor choice of chords on guitar, bouzouki or OM because they're pitched below the melody line.

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## Jim Bevan

> Dunning-Kruger?





> I had to look this one up.


I was assuming that Dunning-Kruger was a brand of beer that I was not yet acquainted with.  :Smile:

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DougC, 

EdHanrahan, 

Jill McAuley, 

kookaburra, 

Steve 2E

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## Simon DS

> At the risk of sounding like the Trad Police here, I think a problem with that idea is that the mandolin sits in exactly the same pitch range for tunes as the other traditional Irish melody instruments


-the humble piano accordion with wet tuning has a very wide range, and even chords, sevenths too, on the left side. You could try some canny improv  at your local Irish Trad Session. 
The trombone too, when played with enthusiasm, is surprisingly versatile.

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## DougC

I think if you noodled on a trombone I would go screaming out the door like a mad man. Another Guinness please, please!

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kookaburra

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## Ray(T)

> boring diddly tunes? I think someone is in the wrong forum...However the issue may be 'having to learn' the tunes_ before_ one attends a sessiun vs learning _at_ the sessiun.  
> 
> Noodling during the time in order to 'work out the mechanics of playing along' is a way of learning. No doubt. But how one does this, and how it is dealt with, involves some respect for the people and the genre.


My wife, a non musician, refuses to go along with me to most sessions because, she says, that she can’t stand people playing the same tune again and again - which is what the “anti-noodlers” seem to be suggesting. Perhaps you might like to convince a jazz musician that they should rigorously stick to the tune and see what rection you get.

Rather than playing exactly the same as everybody else, the art is in playing what fits in with what everyone else might be playing.

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## JeffD

> My wife, a non musician, refuses to go along with me to most sessions because, she says, that she can’t stand people playing the same tune again and again - which is what the “anti-noodlers” seem to be suggesting. Perhaps you might like to convince a jazz musician that they should rigorously stick to the tune and see what rection you get.
> 
> Rather than playing exactly the same as everybody else, the art is in playing what fits in with what everyone else might be playing.


It depends on the jam. For Old Time jams repeating the tune over and over and becoming hypnotized and obsessed with it is part of the fun. With Bluegrass the point is more to get the tune down so you can do a killer break when it comes around. With jazz etc., the idea is to transcend the tune with your playing.


But I get what your wife is saying. Thing is a jam is not a concert. A concert is for the audience, a jam is for the participants. There may be an audience too, but IMO the best jams ignore the audience and maximize the players' fun.

Folks do disagree with me, but there it is.

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Ky Slim, 

Rush Burkhardt

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## Simon DS

Great thing about a repetitive, foot-tapping OldTime jam is that you can dance, let your body do the thinking.

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DougC

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## Jill McAuley

> My wife, a non musician, refuses to go along with me to most sessions because, she says, that she can’t stand people playing the same tune again and again - which is what the “anti-noodlers” seem to be suggesting. Perhaps you might like to convince a jazz musician that they should rigorously stick to the tune and see what rection you get.
> 
> Rather than playing exactly the same as everybody else, the art is in playing what fits in with what everyone else might be playing.


Yeah, fair point about jazz musicians, but the OP was asking about trad sessions, so kind of apples and oranges.

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## DougC

There is certainly a difference among different styles of music when it comes to social behavior. Ignorance and a superior attitude can quickly cause trouble. 
Take classical music for example, there is no "jam session". Students in lessons, or in groups are expected to be quiet and do only what the instructor dictates. Noodling is strictly forbidden. (This has changed a bit over the last 20 years but the point remains.)

Part of the problem, as I see it, is in bringing one social behavior to another. If the person does not adapt to the new social situation then there will be trouble.

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## JeffD

I have heard the question: What do I play if I don't know the tune?  The answer is, you listen, and learn the tune.

The most important skill, at any jam or session, is to listen.

I have known a few amazing musicians who could, upon one hearing, play the tune effectively. One friend of mine would sit, fiddle across his lap, for the first time through a tune, and then take up the fiddle and get after it. Not flawlessly, but a lot better that I could have after several hearings!

But for us mere mortals, the best would be to record the playing on our cell phones and just listen, and learn the tune at home. The worst would be to try and join in with random playing the first time you have heard the tune, (noodling so called) and thereby disrupting the session, and also not learning the tune. Somewhere in the middle is probably best, where you have learned the tune from your recording, (done your homework) but have not "got it down" so you play along to smooth out the contours and fill in the blank places.

Being able to hear the chord changes can often give one a leg up. Me, I have to cheat the chords off the guitar player.

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## PhillipeTaylor

Sounds like my question led to other discussions about other things, which is fine.  I don't mind my question leading to other people getting clarification on similar concerns. 

For myself, I am facilitating a Irish/Scottish Learning/Slow session whose goal is to explicitly bridge participants to be positive participants in IRISH/SCOTTISH sessions.  As a fellow learner who has participated in some sessions, and who formed the group to help improve my own skills, as much as support the growth of others, I try to be informed and recognize what I don't know as fellow learner in my role as facilitator, so that I can be as accurate as possible.  

Thank you so much for everyone who chimed in!  I realize and have experienced that sessions are very different.  I will say that even though many sessions allow participation and "fooling around" or "noodling,"  I have never gone wrong with following the instructions that the fiddler teacher provided me: DON'T PARTICIPATE UNLESS YOU CAN LEAD THE TUNE.  I get that this is comparatively extreme.  

I didn't go about it this way at first. I am not shy.  When I was first getting into Irish/Scottish music, I'd show up with my mandolin and try to jump in to every session with a tune I could play, and behaved with my own kind of -Dunning-Kruger- approach as an enthusiastic beginner.  I had good intentions.  My heart was in the right place.  I was still obnoxious (oops)!  

Now, I follow that fiddler's advice.  I also buy a player an occasional drink.  I introduce myself first.  I ask if players welcome people to participate who can play along.  I ask permission to record tunes when I show up the first time, and explain it is so that I can be prepared to participate if I am allowed the next time I attend.  I have heard "no." When I do, I don't argue or feel put off.  I feel informed and am glad I found out ahead of time, so that I avoided embarrassing myself.  Some people have their own little group doing their own thing.  Who the hell am I to just decide I should be allowed to join in?  Kind of presumptuous.  

However, with that approach, as extreme as I see now that it is in comparison to what I hear is the norm, I have, on occasion, been invited to lead a tune, at the pace I can.  I have been invited to come back to a session where I literally SUCK compared to others in the group.  I have also been invited to sessions that weren't public in people's homes.  An initial "no" has become, "bring your mandolin next time, and join in with some of the tunes you think you can keep up with."   

I realize from reading various replies that my policy may seem extreme compared to general expectations at sessions, however, I rarely get the "side eye" anymore, and I often make connections that leads to sessions where I CAN participate, or at least connections and encouragement.  When I was a beginner that had a good heart, but a reckless spirit, I wondered why I would go through a whole session where people ignored me.  I thought I was doing fine.  Sometimes I was doing fine, musically, speaking.  But I was just not taking any time to read the room and gauge if I SHOULD participate before gauging if I COULD participate. 

Now, I hear stories from some beginning players who come to my learning session and talk about their experiences at Irish/Scottish sessions and how they behave and I cringe.  I cringe because I did that stuff too, and I know that this is why I had problems making connections with fellow players.  People basically froze me out, just like they are freezing out the other beginners, who are, like I was, filled with the reckless eagerness to participate.  So, running a learning session, I am also contemplating how to teach this important skill set as well as the musical support, because it really is an important bridge.  As I make connections with other groups in my area, now that sessions are starting up again, to learn their tunes and tell them what I'm doing.  I know that there are certain participants I WON'T bring with me to these groups.  Sad, but true.  I'd like to help them bridge this gap and come along, but, quite frankly, they will embarrass themselves. So, how do I communicate the importance of a sensitive and respectful approach that tries to take in what is happening first, and waits upon the groups tacit or overt permission before jumping in?

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## DougC

_So, how do I communicate the importance of a sensitive and respectful  approach that tries to take in what is happening first, and waits upon  the groups tacit or overt permission before jumping in?_

I actually wrote a piece that we used as a protocol and reference for proper behavior. This issue was a big deal back then (1990's ) as it is now apparently. We were mostly note readers and the book was developing so the Sessiun Etiqutte became part of the introduction.

This was a bold move on my part. I certainly became the focus of angst and disagreement as a 'self appointed Sessiun police man'. However it gained a lot of support as it actually worked. We had a set of rules and could use them. 

This is from the book. 
 
  Be quiet at a regular Sessiún. Talk after the music has ended. It’s considered rude to talk while the music plays.  Let the musicians sit together. Never sit among people who are playing.  Never touch anyone’s instrument.  Play at a regular Sessiún only if you can play quite well and are invited to play.  Try to notice if more experienced players want to play without you.  Don’t ask a Fast Sessiún to play a tune. They are working on their own stuff.  Always ask and be discrete in using a tape recorder.  Buy them a drink for a job well done! This is a tradition.  In Slow Sessiúns be friendly and polite.  Try to play evenly. Never speed up or slow down.  Don’t mix tunes. Play jigs together, reels together, hornpipes together, etc.  Don’t start a tune if someone else is starting a tune.  Try to learn the tunes others like to play.  Only one guitar and one drum should play at a time.  Never try to force others to play at a certain tempo.  Don’t tune your instrument while people are playing.  Talk quietly while others are playing; or talk only between tunes.

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Eric Platt, 

GMorgan, 

Jean Andreasen, 

PhillipeTaylor

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## foldedpath

> So, how do I communicate the importance of a sensitive and respectful approach that tries to take in what is happening first, and waits upon the groups tacit or overt permission before jumping in?


Tell them that while a session often takes place in a public venue, and is theoretically "open" to newcomers as most are, it's still a bit like a private conversation among friends hanging out at a pub or restaurant. You wouldn't barge into a private conversation as a stranger, you'd listen first. Then slowly and respectfully integrate into the group. 

It's also important to suss out the level of each session, and be realistic about your own abilities. A group that has been playing together for years and enjoys playing at full dance tempos -- which can seem very fast to a beginner -- may be welcoming and friendly to newcomers. But that won't last long if you can't keep up and are dragging the group down.

Finally, I think the most important thing of all is to help newbies understand that unlike casual/amateur gatherings playing Americana genres like Folk, OldTime, and Bluegrass, it's considered perfectly fine to sit out a tune you don't know. Nobody will think less of you. I've been to sessions where I sat out half the tunes at first, before getting to know the repertoire. Nobody minds as long as you're contributing here and there, and show an interest in learning the group's repertoire.

Unfortunately this grinds on certain people. They see a session as more of a social than a musical event and they want to play on every tune whether they know it or not. That might work in other genres, but it doesn't work in a unison melody genre like Irish/Scottish trad. Well, it might work to an extent for backers, but I assume we're talking about melody instrument players here. 

I don't know if there's a good way to help this kind of person shift their values and care more about the music than the social aspect. There are, in fact, sessions that are more social than musical, so steering them to a "social session" may be the answer. Sessions where players care more about the music can actually be kind of anti-social, not just to strangers but among the players themselves! But when it's the music that's the focus, those are some of the best sessions I've ever heard.

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DougC, 

Eric Platt, 

PhillipeTaylor

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## Randi Gormley

Well, noodling, to get back to the original question.

I've only heard the term as the third version posited by other cafe members: playing your instrument while an instructor at a workshop is explaining something, playing when leaders are talking between sets at a session, just not being able to keep your hands off your instrument when polite people would sit and be mindful of the ebb and flow of the session. I hadn't heard it used in the first two versions described by the OP. fwiw

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Jim Bevan, 

Ky Slim

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## Eric Platt

What I am honestly surpised by, but maybe shouldn't be at the stage of the game, is the rules apply to even "learners" or "beginner" sessions. Once again, if you don't know things completely and at full performance speed, just don't play.

It's why I concentrate on other music forms instead. Might not like what is going on, but will respect it and keep my distance.

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## Simon DS

I think we forget how much we have achieved.
If you can play ten tunes, one after the other without reading and more importantly, without noodling then well, thats an incredible achievement. Really. :Mandosmiley:

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maxr, 

PhillipeTaylor

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## Jill McAuley

> What I am honestly surpised by, but maybe shouldn't be at the stage of the game, is the rules apply to even "learners" or "beginner" sessions. Once again, if you don't know things completely and at full performance speed, just don't play.
> 
> It's why I concentrate on other music forms instead. Might not like what is going on, but will respect it and keep my distance.


A learners session usually just means that the tunes are played at a much slower pace, and that they're of a more straightforward nature vs. a "tune learning session", where folks are actually learning the tune together. I've seen "slow sessions" that also will advertise that on a particular evening they're having a tune learning session - this would usually be held somewhere away from the public, such as in a community hall, or the upstairs function room of a pub, to allow for the stopping/starting and repetitive nature of learning a tune. Slow session folks will hold those kinds of evenings sometimes  and then be able to introduce the now learned tunes into their slow session repertoire.

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Eric Platt, 

Sue Rieter

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## Ray(T)

Just think, you could learn a few tunes, go along to a local session, sit there and find that nobody plays the tunes you’ve learned. Failing that you may learn a tune at home perfectly, only to find that the version being played isn’t quite the one you’ve aciduously learned. (I’ve always understood that “the tradition” meant that tunes evolved and weren’t written down?)

The sessions I tend to frequent positively encourage total beginners to participate; indeed lead a tune, and the more experienced musicians are more than capable of helping them carry it off musically.

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## Jill McAuley

> Just think, you could learn a few tunes, go along to a local session, sit there and find that nobody plays the tunes you’ve learned. Failing that you may learn a tune at home perfectly, only to find that the version being played isn’t quite the one you’ve aciduously learned. (I’ve always understood that “the tradition” meant that tunes evolved and weren’t written down?)
> 
> The sessions I tend to frequent positively encourage total beginners to participate; indeed lead a tune, and the more experienced musicians are more than capable of helping them carry it off musically.


Yeah, which is why it's good form to go to your local session as a listener first to see what tunes they play. Slow sessions for learners tend to play well known straightforward session tunes that folks commonly start out learning, very different kettle of fish from going to a session with experienced players where the sets played may be unique to that locality or particular group of people.

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## Simon DS

After learning a certain number of tunes, especially if learned by ear, people may find that they can go out to a session and ‘know’ every tune that they listen to once through. 
Then when they pick up their mandolin for the second, or third time through, then in some places they’ll probably play the main parts and where they can’t find it on the fretboard, just stop playing for a measure or two, or play arpeggios in the background harmony.

The problem arrives just as the tune ends in that wonderful, meditative, transcendental silence that descends on the group. 
-everyone’s looking around smiling but then what’s plonking? 
Heads turn round, it’s someone noodling over the parts that they didn’t quite get.

It’s a bit like a tennis player who repeats the movement of the last stroke in slow motion to get a feel for the ‘oneness’ of the movement.
-they are becoming one with themselves.

----------


## maxr

> Just think, you could learn a few tunes, go along to a local session, sit there and find that nobody plays the tunes you’ve learned. Failing that you may learn a tune at home perfectly, only to find that the version being played isn’t quite the one you’ve aciduously learned. (I’ve always understood that “the tradition” meant that tunes evolved and weren’t written down?)
> 
> The sessions I tend to frequent positively encourage total beginners to participate; indeed lead a tune, and the more experienced musicians are more than capable of helping them carry it off musically.


Slightly OT, but it sounds like you got good local sessions Ray. My take on this is that if an individual requires that the audience and all fellow performers treat them like a professional, they should go and get a gig and get paid to play (and good luck with getting treated like a professional...). For me, bar sessions should be about fun, not ego, and about a wide range of abilities coming together to play music and (mostly) learn from each other in a fluid and tolerant atmosphere. There's nothing holy about a pub session, and individuals of lesser abillity should be welcomed by the better level players, whether or not they ever improve. 

One thing that bugs me to a small degree though is that if you ask regular sessioneers or a session organiser (here in UK) for a list of tunes and/or tunes sets often played at that session, the answer is 95% 'Sorry, we don't have that'. They're not being unhelpful, it just never occured to them that that's perhaps why new attendees often don't return to sessions. Around the area of Cornwall UK I mostly go to sessions, one plays mostly trad Irish, another lots of English Morris etc, a third lots of modern-ish Scottish/Cape Breton with a slightly trancey feel. Walking into any of them cold, you'd never know what to expect or if you know any of the tunes, and having a starter list might help. 

Worse, occasionally you'll go along to a session and find a small group of 3-4 friends who practise together have arrived who deliberately play tunes rarely heard at sessions that nobody else knows. They then proceed to effectively play a gig with their note perfect and very fast tunes while everyone else at the 'session' sits around like lemons. I've mostly seen this done by non Irish nationals playing Irish music in London, and I once had another fiddler turn his back on me when I happened to know the tune and joined in competently. Maybe others have suffered this in different styles of music? My experience is mostly UK, are US sessions much different?

Frank Zappa appeared to use the word 'noodling' disparagingly, to mean the kind of soloing that sounds like the player learned alll the scales but missed the lesson where you make them into music - different context though.

----------

Ky Slim

----------


## JeffLearman

> Frank Zappa appeared to use the word 'noodling' disparagingly, to mean the kind of soloing that sounds like the player learned all the scales but missed the lesson where you make them into music - different context though.


He must have been listening to me.  Once I've used both my licks, I don't have much to say.

Oh wait, no.  I missed the "learned all the scales" part.  Never mind.

----------

Bren, 

maxr, 

Nbayrfr, 

Sue Rieter, 

texasdw

----------


## JeffLearman

> ... Sessiún ...


Thanks for exposing me to this word, which I'd never seen before.  At first I thought it was a typo or misspell, but google straightened me out on that (and when you added the accent it was clear it was no simple mistake.)

Clearly, I'm a newb at mandolin.

----------

DougC

----------


## maxr

> The problem arrives just as the tune ends in that wonderful, meditative, transcendental silence that descends on the group. 
> -everyone’s looking around smiling...


That's not meditative silence, Simon - it's fear. Everyone's keeping schtum because they don't know what tunes these guys play yet, and they might get picked on to lead the next set  :Smile:

----------


## Jim Bevan

Ignorance of a particular session's/jam's/whatever's finer points of conduct is no reason to label it intolerant  any situation that combines music-making with social get-togethering is going to have subtle unwritten rules. At open mic/blues jams, you shouldn't wear ear-plugs if you're the loudest player, you should get set up quickly, you should get off the stage quickly, your instrument's volume should match that of the house band's, on and on and on. At community orchestra rehearsals, when it's time to get to work, get to work, and, equally important, when it's time to be sociable, be sociable (and ya, when it's time to noodle, noodle). Adhere to the group's sense of punctuality. Contribute to the gathering's tradition of beverages and snacks. Remember that the good Lord made us all different, that talent is a thing (and that while it's easy to tell if someone has less than you, it's not always easy to tell if someone has more), and be charitable, considerate and humble. And above all, act like the groove of the group is why you're there.

----------

DougC, 

foldedpath, 

maxr

----------


## DougC

Sessiuns historically have been a local social activity. Nowadays we'd be lucky to meet the same people again at the same sessiun. Moreover we are in a world where commercial music of all kinds supplies the knowledge of the players. There always have been small groups or individuals that 'show off' and are ignorant of the rules. The tunes have variations that come from different sources; often brought to the same sessiun. So there are certainly challenges. 

However I am amazed by the growth of ITM worldwide as well as the incredible improvement in sharing the music in places like theSession.org and others mentioned right here on this thread.

----------

Eric Platt, 

Jean Andreasen, 

maxr

----------


## Jill McAuley

It seems to me that if there's a percentage of people who clearly feel like irish trad sessions are elitist/unwelcoming/set too high a bar regarding tune knowledge then the solution would be to start your own session for like minded people with an open approach where people can "noodle", learn the tune as they go along, improvise or what have you. Then the folks who feel erred against by the "rigidity" of trad sessions can have a space they find welcoming and the folks who prefer sessions where participants know the tunes can stick to attending those ones.

----------

Chris Calley

----------


## Jim Bevan

I've attended a few sessions where the more advanced players simply show up later, and the participants seem very okay with the way the evening develops.

----------

DougC, 

Simon DS

----------


## JeffD

> It seems to me that if there's a percentage of people who clearly feel like irish trad sessions are elitist/unwelcoming/set too high a bar regarding tune knowledge then the solution would be to start your own session for like minded people with an open approach where people can "noodle", learn the tune as they go along, improvise or what have you. Then the folks who feel erred against by the "rigidity" of trad sessions can have a space they find welcoming and the folks who prefer sessions where participants know the tunes can stick to attending those ones.


While there is truth here, I find that Irish Trad are not the only ones. My gosh I attended a old time jam a couple of years or so ago and it was an orthodox old time jam where you called out the tune you were going to play, and the style (in the style of Tommy Jarrell, or, as played by Jehile Kirkhuff, or whatever) and the key and designated cross tuning was written on the chalk board behind us. Yeeesh.

I just remember that typically a jam or a session that is highly moderated is that way for some reason. Maybe years before they had trouble being too inclusive, until that sax player came in and enough was enough. Sometimes its the stipulations that keep the jam from falling into a drum circle.


And in my opinion all of that is because people often don't listen. If you go into a sports bar and find a group talking about the Kentucky Derby, you don't elbow your way in and start talk about baseball. A jam or session is a conversation, and that means one should listen for a while to see if it is the kind of conversation one wants to have. No harm done if it isn't. The music is bigger than any given group of people playing it.

----------

Nbayrfr

----------


## Ed McGarrigle

I had thought of “noodling” as the thing the Grateful Dead did during live shows’ extended jams. It wasn’t always necessarily pleasing to the ear, although sometimes it worked. Much of the discussion above seems to revolve around the idea of noodling as part of the learning process and I buy that, but whether it’s appropriate to the session one is at is another matter. I am not proficient enough to play publicly, but when there is sufficient “readiness” I think I will limit myself to a clearly labeled “beginners welcome “ slow session or open mic .  Accepting the notion that noodling is part of the learning process and may or may not be appropriate depending on a particular session’s norms raises in my mind the concept of “readiness”. Ready to play a beginners session strikes me as a far cry from ready to play a session of established players. I wouldn’t want to be the guy that drags down the session.  I think I read somewhere that when asked when was the time to play in public, the Reverend Gary Davis said “ when you are asked to” or something along those lines.

----------


## JeffLearman

Well, generally, "noodling" is used to refer to what people play when they're warming up and not really thinking about what they're playing.  In a group (band, jam, etc.) context, doing that after the session has started is bad form regardless of the skill level: when you're supposed to be playing, you're supposed to be playing and not doing random stuff; when you're supposed to be just listening for whatever reason, you shouldn't be playing.

The term is also used in the context of practice, and the gist is: don't just noodle and call it practice.  So, rather than being an important part of learning, it's an impediment to advancement.

But sure, most of us do it, especially when warming up: we play stuff our fingers are used to or that we've been working on, without much regard for anything else.

And of course, only an idiot makes generalizations.   :Wink:   So while I say noodling is often an impediment to advancement, I do feel that playing mindlessly now and then is also a good thing.  Just don't fool yourself into thinking it's "practice."

BTW, what the Grateful Dead do during their "space jams" is technically referred to as "unstructured improvisation by geniuses" (according to fans, that is.)  Calling it "noodling" could get you into trouble in certain crowds!

----------


## DougC

> Sessiuns historically have been a local social activity. Nowadays we'd be lucky to meet the same people again at the same sessiun. _Moreover we are in a world where commercial music of all kinds supplies the knowledge of the players._


Can I quote myself here? Grateful Dead - yea (love them). All kinds of  musical backgrounds however. No wonder there is confusion regarding  noodling at sessions. 

There is another view aside from seeing Sessiuns as elitist and unfriendly.  Our Sessiuns were that _as well as the opposite.There was an ebb and flow regarding new personalities and situations over the years._ 

The Slow Sessiun started about 7:00 p.m. and the regular Sessiun started around 9:30.  The experienced players would come around 11:00 p.m and play till closing time. Some of them would come early and patiently guide the beginners thru some new tunes. They were very supportive and we loved them. We, as beginners certainly welcomed new people and we quickly taught them the 'ropes'.
This included the idea of putting our instruments away at 9:00. Most of the time, there was (_and still is)_, a friendly, welcoming atmosphere.

----------

Eric Platt

----------


## Randi Gormley

I'm lucky with sessions of all types in the area on most days, now that covid restrictions are looser, so ITM musicians here can generally find a session that fits their level within driving distance. We certainly have sessions where you're expected to know the tunes or sit them out; one is pretty chill with the less efficient players -- the leader will ask them to play a tune at their pace and stronger musicians will give them support -- the other is more strict about who can sit in since seats these days are limited. I know certainly in the past that people with non-traditional-type instruments or who think the session is a "jam" that caters to soloists or needs a dozen loud guitars are pulled aside, quizzed on their ITM background, and often asked not to return. It's pretty harsh, but those are the rules at that session.

We do have two "public" sessions that are welcoming but fulfill different niches -- our comhaltas branch is open to any musician in the area at any level although it normally has a professional or local celebrity leading it (John Whelan, Brian Conway, Jerry O'Sullivan) so the pace can get pretty rousing. OTOH, we have no problems with base beginners adding their chaos to the music since most of them belong to our other public session, the beginner/learning session our local Gaelic American Club fronts. That is a true beginner session; if you're just being introduced to the music -- or the instrument -- you get your feet wet with us, learn the tunes, talk session etiquette, meet some of the more experienced players and then when you show up at comhaltas, you get to hear the music played at speed by people you already know.

----------


## Beanzy

Really enjoying reading the different perspectives here.
For me I think there needs to be that ability to accept where you're at currently, recognising it's a journey of a lifetime & that no one is in the same bit of the long road as more than a few others at any given time. This perspective is born of humility & self awareness that allows us to be really honest with ourselves about what's built & what's not done yet. We also need the same respect for where the others are on their journey too. There's no stigma in being at the early stages, everyone starts there & you only get further along the road by taking the small steps.

By going along and participating as a listener (yep that's still taking part in a session) we tune in over time & gain a recognition that playing Irish trad is a bit of a high-wire act at the best of times, and even minor mis-steps can & sometimes do throw the whole crew off the rope, where it all comes crashing down into a shambles. So as we get enough of a sense of where we are at the moment, we also gain a bit of perspective on why it works best if you play at the level you've figured out you've got to. That's not something that sits very easy with some types of character & it has led to some big blow-ups in the past & will again I'm sure.

This isn't just the case in Irish traditional music, it's common across many traditional rituals. Outsiders see it as a strict pecking order from top to bottom. Those within the tradition see it as everyone being at their right level for the skills and insight they have gained. For iconoclasts it's an absolute nightmare scenario, leaving them feeling suffocated and frustrated at the 'rigid structures' 'imposed' by the 'hide bound' on the gullible. For those who are on the journey within the tradition, they see it as the way things have to be if you're to gain a proper understanding and understand the nuances of the tradition, so you can carry it forward when it's your turn to. This clash of cultures is as old as the hills. In fairness Irish trad has been really open to all sorts of innovations and changes, with it's own fair share of those in a hurry within its ranks. But usually those are the ones who have taken the time to absorb or grown up steeped in the norms of the musical culture. 
Just diving in and thinking there'll be a space because you're you, or you've got some hot chops to offload on everyone, isn't going to get you settled in anywhere soon. 

The early /late session, the sessions done on the QT, the festival classes, are ways people have found for making space to bring people in, bring them on & also a way of making space for themselves to be at the level they're at and push their abilities and understanding further. So as it's a long lifetime's road, these 'elitist', 'exclusive' sessions are often just a safe space for the better players to continue their journey without the danger of tripping over the others.
So from all that wordiness you'll see there really isn't any room for noodling or twittering. It's just a distraction and filling the air with unnecessary distraction and noise that doesn't get people further along than when they first came in the room. 
In a way for me it's like polluting the space, a bit like pouring something into a river. 
Yes it's liquid, yes it flows along with the water, but it's in the wrong place & it'll possibly poison the life in there & leave the place with less living things able to survive to propagate for the future.

I reckon it's a privilege if I can go along and participate by listening & learning. I know I never get out to enough good sessions to listen in to. 
Most of my playing is done by organising to get together with friends who I know are keen to develop in a similar way. It just works better for me. 
I'm always really grateful and surprised when people invite us to come and play with them or at their bash. 
I don't quite say "Really? are you sure you've got the right folks?" but it's close.

----------

Bob Clark, 

Jill McAuley, 

maxr, 

PhillipeTaylor, 

Randi Gormley

----------


## foldedpath

> And of course, only an idiot makes generalizations.    So while I say noodling is often an impediment to advancement, I do feel that playing mindlessly now and then is also a good thing.  Just don't fool yourself into thinking it's "practice."


I suppose there is an argument that any time spent doing anything on your instrument is better than time spent doing something else like watching TV. But there is also the opportunity cost in not using that time to learn a new tune. 

BTW, I'm not against a sort of mindless approach in music when it's appropriate for the genre. I used to play lead electric guitar in a Blues band. Once in a while between doing crap solos from recycled riffs, the skies would open, a beam of light would shine down and I'd play something _amazing_... without knowing where the heck THAT came from! Everyone who improvises will know what I'm talking about. That's the good form of mindless playing when it happens, and when you're in the right genre for it.

Thing is, there isn't any place for this in Irish/Scottish trad. Improvisation does exist, but it's in the form of micro detail, like where and how you ornament a tune. Of if you're playing solo, in the way you subtly vary each repeat of a tune so it doesn't sound exactly the same each time through. Not a great idea in a session intent on unison melody, but it's a neat high-level skill for stage performance or recording.

Aside from that, the tradition is to learn tunes. Either a preferred version from a recording or sheet music if you're playing alone, or the versions played locally in sessions you're attending. The two approaches are not mutually exclusive, I do both. There are tunes I love that I know will never be played in a local session, so I just choose the version I like and learn it. If it's what the local session plays, that's what I'll learn.

Learning repertoire is the core goal in this music. Aimless noodling or mindless playing, whatever we want to call it, doesn't get you there.

----------

Ky Slim

----------


## PhillipeTaylor

> What I am honestly surpised by, but maybe shouldn't be at the stage of the game, is the rules apply to even "learners" or "beginner" sessions. Once again, if you don't know things completely and at full performance speed, just don't play.
> 
> It's why I concentrate on other music forms instead. Might not like what is going on, but will respect it and keep my distance.


I don't think I read anyone on this thread stating that it is an expectation that no one "noodles" or tries to play along if they don't know a tune at a "learning" session. 

 That's what a learning session is for... Nor is this the policy at the one I lead.    

I do want to help beginners learn HOW to have the best experience possible when visiting other, more advanced sessions, however - that's also part of what I understand a "learning" session does... teaches... 

So, maybe the fact that I was intending to TEACH beginners this stuff was heard that I was EXPECTING it at a learning session... and that's not what is happening.  Everyone is playing around, trying to figure out how to play the tune, and we are giving space for that.  It's a learning session, so... yeah.  But having someone teach me the etiquette was HUGE for me in learning HOW to participate more effectively in traditional Irish sessions.  That's why I started this discussion. 

Thanks!

----------

Eric Platt

----------


## PhillipeTaylor

> Slightly OT, but it sounds like you got good local sessions Ray. My take on this is that if an individual requires that the audience and all fellow performers treat them like a professional, they should go and get a gig and get paid to play (and good luck with getting treated like a professional...). For me, bar sessions should be about fun, not ego, and about a wide range of abilities coming together to play music and (mostly) learn from each other in a fluid and tolerant atmosphere. There's nothing holy about a pub session, and individuals of lesser abillity should be welcomed by the better level players, whether or not they ever improve. 
> 
> One thing that bugs me to a small degree though is that if you ask regular sessioneers or a session organiser (here in UK) for a list of tunes and/or tunes sets often played at that session, the answer is 95% 'Sorry, we don't have that'. They're not being unhelpful, it just never occured to them that that's perhaps why new attendees often don't return to sessions. Around the area of Cornwall UK I mostly go to sessions, one plays mostly trad Irish, another lots of English Morris etc, a third lots of modern-ish Scottish/Cape Breton with a slightly trancey feel. Walking into any of them cold, you'd never know what to expect or if you know any of the tunes, and having a starter list might help. 
> 
> Worse, occasionally you'll go along to a session and find a small group of 3-4 friends who practise together have arrived who deliberately play tunes rarely heard at sessions that nobody else knows. They then proceed to effectively play a gig with their note perfect and very fast tunes while everyone else at the 'session' sits around like lemons. I've mostly seen this done by non Irish nationals playing Irish music in London, and I once had another fiddler turn his back on me when I happened to know the tune and joined in competently. Maybe others have suffered this in different styles of music? My experience is mostly UK, are US sessions much different?
> 
> Frank Zappa appeared to use the word 'noodling' disparagingly, to mean the kind of soloing that sounds like the player learned alll the scales but missed the lesson where you make them into music - different context though.




I have had many of these experiences, but I guess I have interpreted it differently.  

For the list of tunes: 

I have made these lists of tunes, now, and it's quite a bit of work.  I was basically expecting someone to draw up a list of tunes to hand to random people who may or may not want to commit to being part of the group, as though I'm "assigning" jobs.  Whose job is that in addition to practice, work, family and so forth?  After having done that now for a while, I just don't feel comfortable holding those kinds of expectations over a group of people just because they choose to play songs together with their friends at a local pub. They have lives, too.  Catering to my whimsical desire to play with them may not be high on their priority list!  

Getting "Frozen" Out, even when musically sound:  

So I wandered into this person's intimate group of friends, sat my ass down among them, without asking if it was ok to do so, nor did I ask if it was ok to play along with them.  Everyone here may have known everyone else in the group for years and may or may not want newcomers to "jump in."  Maybe they all grew up together, and the bar tender lets them play there because they can't play at home....  A "public" pub may still be someone's hometown pub.  Everyone in here may very well know everyone else, and well... "not to be rude, mate, but no one in here knows you, nor does anyone here WANT to know you..."  :Laughing:   (awkward!).   :Laughing:  It may be a "public" place, but that doesn't mean that every GROUP is a public GROUP!  

So... learning the etiquette has helped me negotiate this territory effectively, so that many of these apparently CLOSED groups have started to open for me.  I think it's an important skill set.

----------

maxr

----------


## JeffLearman

> I suppose there is an argument that any time spent doing anything on your instrument is better than time spent doing something else like watching TV. But there is also the opportunity cost in not using that time to learn a new tune.


Right, exactly.




> BTW, I'm not against a sort of mindless approach in music when it's appropriate for the genre. I used to play lead electric guitar in a Blues band. Once in a while between doing crap solos from recycled riffs, the skies would open, a beam of light would shine down and I'd play something _amazing_... without knowing where the heck THAT came from! Everyone who improvises will know what I'm talking about. That's the good form of mindless playing when it happens, and when you're in the right genre for it.


And yeah, that's the flip side.  While "mindfulness" seems to be the hot term these days, I do believe that there can be a point to "mindlessness" sometimes.  I remember a number of times when just fiddling around, a friend or bandmate would say "wow, that sounds good, do that again" and I'd sort of wake up and say "huh? what?"  But, as I said above, that's NOT "practicing."  And you're right that it doesn't really belong to genres like trad and classical.

My experience is only at "jams", not "sessiuns."  I'm learning a lot here about that.

----------


## maxr

> I have had many of these experiences, but I guess I have interpreted it differently.  
> 
> Getting "Frozen" Out, even when musically sound:  
> 
> ....... It may be a "public" place, but that doesn't mean that every GROUP is a public GROUP!


That's not what happened at the session I mentioned - 3 or 4 people who didn't normally come to this place had hijacked an existing public session and were trying to turn it into a gig for their group, while giving the rest of us the evil eye if we joined in. I appreciate your point that's not always the way it happens  :Smile:

----------

PhillipeTaylor

----------


## JeffD

> One thing that bugs me to a small degree though is that if you ask regular sessioneers or a session organiser (here in UK) for a list of tunes and/or tunes sets often played at that session, the answer is 95% 'Sorry, we don't have that'. They're not being unhelpful, it just never occurred to them that that's perhaps why new attendees often don't return to sessions.


In Irish and in Old Time here in the States it seems there is a core set of tunes that everyone knows and plays. For the most part it seems that most regularly meeting jams seem to overlap in tunes to about 30%, sometimes a lot more.

More and more I am finding that many regularly meeting jams have a website on which is listed either the core of tunes they know, or a list of tunebooks or, more and more, links to tune lists on line, from which they often grab their tunes.  

I travel a lot for work and if I can I look online for jams in the area I am going to, and email ahead to introduce myself, and ask about tunes they play etc.

----------

maxr

----------


## Beanzy

Not quite the same scenario, but this made me think of the last rehearsal scene from "The Boys From County Clare"

(clip contains a liberal scattering of 'vernacular Irish emphasis' so sound down if you're at work or near the easily flustered)

----------

Bren, 

DougC, 

foldedpath, 

maxr, 

PhillipeTaylor, 

Randi Gormley, 

Sue Rieter

----------


## Simon DS

To me ‘noodling’ is being a bit half-hearted while playing. 
It’s when you’ve smoked too much weed, drank a lot of alcohol, are mentally exhausted from work… or you just don’t like the tune that you’re trying to play.

‘Noodling’ means a lack of melodic focus at a cerebral level. There’s a poor music-learning structure involved and it often manifests itself by a patient’s over-use of the favourite arpeggio.

There’s a high incidence of this affliction among freedom-loving, self-taught bouzouki players who are liberated from the melodic constraints of the tune.

Good news is that it’s easily cured by a couple of lessons with a mandolin counselor.

----------

DougC, 

JeffLearman

----------


## Eric Platt

Just wanted to say thank you to all the folks that have been participating in this thread. Have learned a lot.

And yes, it does appear that sessiuns are a whole different world than what I presently inhabit. 

Also want to give a shout out to DougC for his excellent descriptions of the local gatherings over the years.

----------

DougC, 

Jean Andreasen, 

maxr, 

PhillipeTaylor, 

Sue Rieter

----------


## DougC

> I suppose there is an argument that any time spent doing anything on your instrument is better than time spent doing something else like watching TV.
> 
> Learning repertoire is the core goal in this music. Aimless noodling or mindless playing, whatever we want to call it, doesn't get you there.


When I teach ITM, my main focus is on 'mechanics' or technical ability. People generally are learning the instrument as well as the tunes and most often, they stumble over their own fingers more than the tune itself. 
So to some extent I agree that doing anything on an instrument contributes to becoming better. But there are more effective ways to learn.

----------

Eric Platt, 

Jean Andreasen, 

maxr

----------


## Bren

Last night at a local pub session, a couple who were leaving the pub came over and put £20 on the table and said thanks. 
Well, the £20 note said "thanks" anyway , I guess. I left before the end but suggested that , since the bar was already comping a round or two of drinks for players, there be a contest for "most skint student" among the players

Anyway.
Bearing in mind that this is a mandolin site, the first thing that many mandolinists , no matter how big or small their repertoire ,  notice when going to a busy session for the first time, is that they can't hear themselves very well, if at all.
Fiddlers, whistlers, accordionists etc (and banjo) have instruments that either cut through with sheer volume, or are played closer to the players' ears.
The mandolin is down around your waist somewhere and the sound goes out rather than up.
Added to that are the sounds of a noisy, happy pub, and electric keyboard, skilfully played but making a boomy, space-filling sound, and a guitar filling any sonic gaps that might remain.

Maybe the tunes are ones you know and you can play along confidently anyway.
Playing happily and confidently, you realise the mandolin is actually quite audible in the mix. Somebody standing on the outside might even tell you so.

Then there are tunes you don't know. You can't even figure out what key they are in since your mandolin is resonating with every frequency and harmonic in the room.
So you sit them out, sip your drink, tap your foot, look at your phone, chat with your neighbour (yes, I'm afraid everyone does that here).

Then ... there are the tunes that you think you know but can't quite dredge from memory, or get back into your fingers.
The box player on your left and the fiddler on your right are in the same boat, but they try a few notes tentatively and it eventually comes to them. You try a few notes tentatively and you can't tell if it's right or wrong. In a quiet session you could get it, maybe. 

Welcome to my world , or last night's session to be precise, Last Night's Fun if you like ... but I still had a good time!

----------

Eric Platt, 

foldedpath, 

Jean Andreasen, 

Ky Slim, 

Nbayrfr, 

PhillipeTaylor, 

Simon DS

----------


## PhillipeTaylor

> Not quite the same scenario, but this made me think of the last rehearsal scene from "The Boys From County Clare"
> 
> (clip contains a liberal scattering of 'vernacular Irish emphasis' so sound down if you're at work or near the easily flustered)


Who doesn't love Chief Miles O'Brien?  :Laughing: 

https://youtu.be/RJudJ9S579A

----------


## foldedpath

Bren, that's a great point about volume being an obstacle to hearing your own instrument in some sessions. I prefer smaller groups for that reason, but sometimes the best sessions are the larger ones and there isn't a choice. 

As it happens, a few days ago I bought a decibel meter app for my iPad because I was curious about the volume difference between my mandolin and my "Irish" flute (wooden, conical bore). I always suspected the flute was a bit louder and wanted to confirm it. I'm sure this iPad app isn't calibrated or super accurate, but probably good enough to show the relative difference in volume.

I set the iPad three feet away and played the same tune on both instruments. Turns out that the flute is 10db louder, around 75db max compared to 65db max for the mandolin. This mandolin is a good one (Lebeda F5), about as loud as can be expected without being the resonator type. 

And as you say, we're further disadvantaged by having the instrument practically in our laps, away from our ears. A fiddler or fluter has the instrument much closer to the ear. The other "lap" instruments in a session like concertina, box, and of course pipes tend to be louder anyway.

The one advantage mandolin has in a louder session is the sharp "ping" of the note attack envelope. If you can train yourself to focus on that as a distinct sound amid the din of the session, it's a bit easier not to get lost.

----------

Bren

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## John Kelly

Bren, your posting strikes true in so many ways.  At my local session last night we had two accordions, three fiddles, small pipes and a bodhran and I had guitar and mandolin.  This is a fairly typical lineup of our regular members.  I mainly played the guitar as we got through a lot of pipe tunes - look at the instrument lineup - but the mandolin had its place especially on the slower tunes, Gaelic waltzes and such like.  There was a good lot of pub regulars there too and a couple of party groups, so the ambient chat level was high.  We all had a really good evening and even managed to hear each other quite a lot!  :Wink:

----------

Bren

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## Simon DS

Yes Bren, I remember a fiddle lesson where the teacher said don’t search for the note. You basically decide where your finger is going to come down for the note you already have in your head rather than put the finger down and then make adjustments. To begin with, it would be having the root fourth and fifths in your mind and their positions on the fretboard.

An interesting exercise would be to try playing some concertina on the headphones and play mandolin at the same time (a different tune, different tempo!). Then re-learn your repertoire as finger movements.   :Smile: 

One that really worked for me was looking at my fretboard in the mirror while playing tunes. It forced the old brain to open up!

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## Sue Rieter

> Then ... there are the tunes that you think you know but can't quite dredge from memory, or get back into your fingers.
> The box player on your left and the fiddler on your right are in the same boat, but they try a few notes tentatively and it eventually comes to them. You try a few notes tentatively and you can't tell if it's right or wrong. In a quiet session you could get it, maybe.


So what did you do then, Bren? Relax back and wait for the next tune? At what point did you give up (if you did)?

----------


## Bren

Hi Sue,

I don't generally give up at local sessions because I can always take a break and chat to people I know if it's not working for me.
For better or worse, I'm a weel-kent face at these places

Even at many strange sessions I (used to, recently resumed) go to around the UK and the world, often if you wait long enough, the dynamic will change over time.

I go out with the expectation of having a nice night listening to music and enjoying the atmosphere, then if I feel I have something to offer, asking if I can play a tune or two. Or if I can tell from what I've heard that we'd have some repertoire in common, asking if I can sit in. And try to choose a seating (or standing can be good) position that is mandolin friendly - that's a topic for a whole thread in itself.

I have at least one set of fairly universal "old chestnuts" for starters that I'm comfortable with even if nervous in the company,  and can vary a bit if I've just heard someone playing them.
Say, for reels,  St. Anne's Reel - G reel like Banshee or Fr Kelly - Foxhunters in A
Jigs, easy starters for me are Blarney Pilgrim/Merrily Kissed the Quaker - Banish Misfortune.
the hotshot players might get bored but the rest will join in happily.

I've been told off a couple of times - both times for getting carried away and starting too many tunes, once in NYC ("excuse me but we're trying to encourage beginners here") once in Cork ("that's enough Scottish marches").

I've slunk out of a good few more than that because I didn't feel I would fit.

I realise it's a lot different when you have to drive for an hour just to get to your one session a month but all you can do is give it a go.

----------

maxr, 

Sue Rieter

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## Bren

Folded path:



> I set the iPad three feet away and played the same tune on both instruments. Turns out that the flute is 10db louder, around 75db max compared to 65db max for the mandolin. This mandolin is a good one (Lebeda F5), about as loud as can be expected without being the resonator type.


I looked it up to remind myself about the exact relationship between dB and perceived volume and found this (my underlining) :



> Each 10 dB increase results in a 10-fold increase in sound intensity which we perceive as a 2-fold increase in sound volume.


https://hearinglosshelp.com/blog/con...d-intensities/

It is so hard to relate the volume of an instrument in the shop or at home with how it's going to sound in a session. Only experience can tell, I think.

Another thing that interests me is signal strength for playing through a pickup.

In a few weeks I'll be plugging in for my first ceilidh band gig since March 2020, a wedding.

I normally play my Marshall Dow mandolin through a McIntyre Feather pickup plugged into the band's PA mixer via my Boss GE7, then bandleader mixes it himself.
Usually getting OK, if not great results . Third-party sound people at some venues have complained my signal is too weak. It gets better playing through a mike but at long dances I can't sit/stand still for long enough due to back issues.

I acquired an Eastman 815 w/K&K pickup in late 2020. It's not as loud as my Dow in sessions, but still quite audible and more tightly-focussed.
I won't get a chance to try it plugged-in before the gig, in fact probably the core band will be set-up and sound-checked before the ceremony and dinner, long before the time I and the others arrive during the speeches.

Is there an app (Android or Apple, either will do) which would be good for comparing signal strength both acoustically and when plugged in?

----------


## Kenny

Noodling. 
I had no idea there there were this many definitions/interpretations of the term. In the musical social circles I’ve passed through* it’s been almost universal that “noodling” means playing aimlessly, often oblivious to the jam and ignoring the others who are present. It may be just fine to do so, say, among friends; or it may be a real annoyance, as it is when the noodler is filling time while others in the jam are teaching one another about something in the previous tune, choosing the next tune, working out key, tempo, breaks, modulations, counting off, et al. It might also be mid-tune, walking all over somebody else’s break. 

When you go to play in a jam you really ought to learn the etiquette of that jam or that group of people. It was sad, but I have seen good jam players pack up to leave when a full time thoughtless, noodling bull-in-a-china-shop walks in and opens a case. 

* I need to get out more.

----------


## maxr

I've never seen a person stick their hand down a catfish's throat at a session, but someone's done it, somewhere.

----------

Jean Andreasen, 

Ky Slim

----------


## JeffLearman

> Each 10 dB increase results in a 10-fold increase in sound intensity which we perceive as a 2-fold increase in sound volume.


That's the rule of thumb, but perceived loudness is literally a matter of opinion.  Studies show that most people report "twice as loud" to be in the 6-db to 10-db range.

The part that gets me is, if you assume the 10dB rule, to be twice as loud you need 10 times the watts!  Double the wattage and you get only 3 extra dB.  It's clearly noticeable, enough to get from "almost loud enough" to "definitely loud enough."  But not nearly what we'd expect.  A 1 dB change is barely noticeable.

----------


## JeffLearman

> Is there an app (Android or Apple, either will do) which would be good for comparing signal strength both acoustically and when plugged in?


Any "sound pressure meter" app should work.  As mentioned above, the numbers won't necessarily correlate to a calibrated measurement, but should be good for relative comparisons.  Just be sure to be the same distance from the sound source.

I've used a "Sound Meter" app on Android which I've found useful.

An "SPL" (sound pressure level) meter isn't expensive and comes calibrated (close enough for what we do.)  Here's one for $20: https://smile.amazon.com/BAFX-Produc.../dp/B00ECCZWWI .  I always preferred analog ones with a needle, because SPL usually bounces around a lot and I got more information watching the needle and seeing the full range of motion.  But I don't think they're around anymore.  They're very handy to have.  The only advantage of a phone is that you always have it.  (Note that with some software you can use the meter to [try to] calibrate your phone's app.)

Note that there are two EQ curves: "A" and "C".  (No idea what happened to B!)  A is what law enforcement uses for loudness complaints, measurements by OSHA, and in most city regulations.  It's for "general sound."  C is specifically for music and includes more lower and higher frequencies.  The reason is that the A range is more closely matched to the frequencies needed for speech and that are also more likely to damage hearing.  For measuring your mando, you'd use C. But for relative measurements like what we're talking about here, either curve should work well enough.

----------

Bren

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## Beanzy

One I've used with external and on board mics on the iPhone is https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/decibe...er/id448155923

What I like is the ability to record a sound chart which can make the relative loudness easier to judge by eye as well as getting the peak transients in some context.

----------

Bren, 

JeffLearman

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## Simon DS

Is it possible to print out a colour graph of the sound levels over time?

It would be super-useful if it comes with a 6mm. jack, cable and the mandolin is acoustic/electric.
Then you can politely interrupt  the person who’s doing noodling to plug their instrument straight into the meter.

With the colour graph... they’re busted.

----------


## foldedpath

> Is it possible to print out a colour graph of the sound levels over time?
> 
> It would be super-useful if it comes with a 6mm. jack, cable and the mandolin is acoustic/electric.
> Then you can politely interrupt  the person whos doing noodling to plug their instrument straight into the meter.
> 
> With the colour graph... theyre busted.


It might work, but it's too complicated. All you need is either the session leader or an "elder" in the session to say "Hey you, tone it down a bit, would ye?" and then the session continues with the interloper duly chastised. At least, in theory. I've seen it work with a strong enough session leader.

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## Bren

How it works, sonically, for you in the exact place you're sitting, in a room that gets progressively more or less noisier and crowded over the course of a session isn't something your phone can tell you. 
But you can get a better assessment of the odds.

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## Ray(T)

> Any "sound pressure meter" app should work.  As mentioned above, the numbers won't necessarily correlate to a calibrated measurement, but should be good for relative comparisons.  Just be sure to be the same distance from the sound source.
> 
> I've used a "Sound Meter" app on Android which I've found useful.
> 
> An "SPL" (sound pressure level) meter isn't expensive and comes calibrated (close enough for what we do.)  Here's one for $20: https://smile.amazon.com/BAFX-Produc.../dp/B00ECCZWWI .  I always preferred analog ones with a needle, because SPL usually bounces around a lot and I got more information watching the needle and seeing the full range of motion.  But I don't think they're around anymore.  They're very handy to have.  The only advantage of a phone is that you always have it.  (Note that with some software you can use the meter to [try to] calibrate your phone's app.)
> 
> Note that there are two EQ curves: "A" and "C".  (No idea what happened to B!)  A is what law enforcement uses for loudness complaints, measurements by OSHA, and in most city regulations.  It's for "general sound."  C is specifically for music and includes more lower and higher frequencies.  The reason is that the A range is more closely matched to the frequencies needed for speech and that are also more likely to damage hearing.  For measuring your mando, you'd use C. But for relative measurements like what we're talking about here, either curve should work well enough.


DbA is the most often used spec because it corresponds better to the range of human hearing - it ignores the lower and higher frequencies. DbC simply measures everything and is generally used for calibrating/assessing electronic equipment. The first problem in using some sort of iPhone app is that youre assessing the sound using a crappy little microphone which will have a response curve all of its own. A dedicated sound level meter should at least have a calibrated mic. with a more or less flat response.

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## JeffLearman

> DbA is the most often used spec because it corresponds better to the range of human hearing - it ignores the lower and higher frequencies. DbC simply measures everything and is generally used for calibrating/assessing electronic equipment.


Well, both cover only the range of human hearing.  C is relatively flat in that range, whereas A is weighted the way human ears tend to be (but only at relatively low levels since it's using a simple model using just one curve.)

More info, for us nerds: https://www.theproductionacademy.com/blog/dba-vs-dbc

Your point about phone mics is valid, though they're not as terrible as one might imagine.  And for the purpose of gauging the relative volume of two instruments, probably good enough.  Regardless, an SPL meter is useful and cheap!  BTW, the mics in SPLs are a kind of very cheap capsules that happen to be very flat.  So if they're so flat, why don't we use them for recording?  The answer is that we want lots more than just flat, in a mic.  It also needs good transient response and a number of other characteristics.  These are the same capsules that we see in most little handheld field recorders.  (Or at least, used to be.  I've been out of that market for 10 years.)

Weren't we talking about noodling?  Is this discursion an example of forum noodling?  :Wink:

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## Bren

Apologies for the discursive diversionary arc, but whether you can hear and be heard, or not, is at least tangential , if not central, to the question of noodling at sessions.

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## JeffD

Trying to boil this all down to something effective and useful to the OP.




> that "noodling" at a session was trying to play along with the tune when you cannot play the tune all the way through at the tempo the group typically plays that tune.


Going with that definition for a moment...

The main question is "what can I do if I don't know the tunes". The real answer is "learn the tunes". Not meant harshly, or trying to make newbies more uncomfortable, not at all. I bend over backwards to be welcoming. But in what other endeavor can one plan to participate without knowing what one is doing. "How do you fly the plane if you don't know how to fly a plane?" You learn to fly the plane.




> Basically, if you can't play the tune well enough that you could lead the tune, and you try to play along, you are "noodling".  BAD!


No not really. That is extreme. But I can totally understand how one can feel that way. There is a difference between knowing the tune well enough to play along and knowing the tune well enough to lead. Large difference.

If you don't know the tune well enough to play along, you can't go wrong just listening. (You can never go wrong just listening.) Or listen and record it on your cell phone so you can learn it at home later. Or after the jam ask someone to play that tune into your cell phone a couple of times, (I have done this many many times), or see if anyone as the tune written out or from which tune book it is available, or can tell you where on line they learned it.

And if you have a recording of the tune, either recorded at the jam, or you asked someone to play it twice into your phone after the jam, or a youtube of someone playing it, or the tune is on a CD - there is no problem at home noodling along with the recording until you can play along.


Another option is a learning jam. (I much prefer that name to what it is often called" "the slow jam".) You see them at festivals often enough. and also I know of some regularly meeting jam session where the first hour and a half is for newbies, and things go slower, and with explanations if needed. After an hour and a half the main group comes in, and newbies are welcome to sit in on that if they want, with full knowledge that it is a regular jam.

----------

PhillipeTaylor

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## PhillipeTaylor

> Apologies for the discursive diversionary arc, but whether you can hear and be heard, or not, is at least tangential , if not central, to the question of noodling at sessions.


Well, it is a relevant point, actually.  The conversation simply evolved: 

This point got brought up because the point was made that "noodling" by a mandolin is not the same - and often forgiven - since our instruments are often overwhelmed by other, louder, instruments.  A violin or flute noodling might be a real problem, a mandolin, no one cares.  

Then someone claimed that we really CAN be heard.  The point was made that the angle of the instruments relationship to us - the player - produces this "quieter instrument" effect more than the instrument itself.  

Others claimed that, as a plectrum instrument, the "staccato" sound of the instrument makes it stand out despite it being quieter, but it is, in fact, quieter. 

This evolved into a discussion about HOW quiet our playing REALLY is, and thus, the current discussion.  So, I'd like to know the relative range, according to these measurements, since it has been an interesting discussion.  I am curious where this conversation lands.  

Thanks!

----------


## Ranald

> The main question is "what can I do if I don't know the tunes". The real answer is "learn the tunes". Not meant harshly, or trying to make newbies more uncomfortable, not at all. I bend over backwards to be welcoming. But in what other endeavor can one plan to participate without knowing what one is doing. "How do you fly the plane if you don't know how to fly a plane?" You learn to fly the plane.


In my experience, most things in life you learn by participating before you know what you're doing. Activities like flying a plane and performing surgery are exceptions. Sports, arts and crafts, cooking, building, farming, camping, riding horses, birdwatching, foot racing, reading, writing, singing, sewing, telling stories, making jokes -- I learned these skills by trying them out with or observing others before I knew what I was doing. I know many musicians who started the same way. I became pretty good at some of these activities, not so much at others. By and large, that's how people learn. On the farm, starting when I was about twelve, I even learned to drive by trial and error. (Of course, I had to pass a test to drive on roads legally.). 

Among people playing traditional music in both Atlantic Canada, where I was born, and the Ottawa Valley, where I now live, I've found most musicians to be nothing but encouraging. Not coincidentally, traditional music is alive and well in these places. No one is complaining that young people aren't taking up the music. It's only in the last couple of decades that I've run across people who felt that going into a public place, sitting in a tight circle with your back to everyone, playing music for yourselves, and excluding everyone else was somehow "entertainment" that should be advertised and for which musicians should be paid. Tight-knit communities in Ireland have their own cultural rules that may work well there, but this kind of session does very little to encourage budding musicians in my country. I'm not objecting to sessions or jams having rules and levels. I know a bit about playing hockey, but I wouldn't turn up at an NHL game in my skates, expecting to play. I respect the right of the best musicians to get together at times -- at home, if they have to -- and exclude the learners. I also like the idea of a jam that gets more complex and exclusive as the afternoon or evening goes on, with the best musicians playing by themselves at the end. However, If you want to create or encourage a musical tradition, you won't have much success by encouraging exclusivity.

If _noodling_ means making sounds with your instrument continually throughout a session, I'd put myself on the anti-noodling camp.

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## PhillipeTaylor

I feel like the "noodling" concept is much more about "etiquette" than anything else.  And still, the discussion gets confused and difficult as we refer to various ideas and experiences.  Examples:

We try to discuss the "rude" players who come into a tavern and just jump in, without knowing the tunes, even trying to lead tunes without even bothering to get to know the group dynamic, and basically crashes a group.  So, we discuss general rules and a sense of etiquette with groups, to help newer players to Irish sessions learn how to "size up" the group. 

Another person shares the same story of being treated like a session "crasher" but it turns out he was INVITED to come and play, but then given the cold shoulder for doing what he was invited to do - explicitly so!!!   

So, even when we discuss "etiquette" and how to approach and participate in a way that isn't disruptive or rude, we have to be careful to understand that group dynamics are complex and varied, and that it's not so easy to determine what is "rude". 

I was invited to one session, for example, at a person's house - personally invited by the leader of the group.  I was looking forward to it, since it was one of the first ones coming out of COVID.  I knew the tune list, I came ready to go, I knew which tunes I could play and which I couldn't and at what pace.  I was SET.  When I show up,  having been present at SEVERAL zoom sessions prior to this, several people ask who I am, and kind of give me the third degree.  They are quite pushy about it.  I'm feeling very weird, like, "did I misunderstand the invitation?"  I mentioned the leaders name several times.  I mentioned where they saw me before.  They are still skeptical.  The leader shows up, and they ask who I am.  She tells them.  Same as what I said.  They are still skeptical. There's some weird push-pull there.  Now I'm really feeling weird.  "What did I get in the middle of here?!" I wonder.  My bullet tuner breaks.  What an embarrassing sh*t show!  What did I do wrong?  I keep telling myself I didn't do anything wrong, but I feel like an ass party-crasher the whole time.  

Turns out, the group was preparing for a specific performance with specific tunes NOT on their standard tune list.  They were truly confused WHY I got invited to what was, essentially, a rehearsal.  Yeah, I get it.  The leader DID specifically invite me, but she really shouldn't have.  Not sure what she was thinking, probably she was just eager to include me.  

No one's fault, just flawed human beings trying to come together.  

I still play with these people occasionally, but I'm careful to show up to public sessions and not private homes with them anymore.  

Human dynamics are complex.

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## JeffD

> Among people playing traditional music in both Atlantic Canada, where I was born, and the Ottawa Valley, where I now live, I've found most musicians to be nothing but encouraging..


Yes. True. Overwhelming true every where I have played.

----------

Jim Bevan, 

Ranald

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## Beanzy

Possibly people aren't aware of just how different the whole ecosystem for trad is in Ireland,
Here in Cornwall we don't have this and up in England they don't either, so it might be worth outlining some aspects here.

A huge difference is where the basic learning happens and for this the National school system is a big factor.
When you go to music class in the National schools or the Irish speaking secondary schools, it's going to be learning trad instruments and music first.
Where I went in a private school in Dublin it was very similar to what my son had here in Cornwall & most English schools (recorders, guitars, classical etc)
So the National schools have been producing generations of youngsters who leave school with hundreds of tunes & songs learnt by heart & played many times over. (along with many others who wish they could forget them, but won't look to their plight here)
There's also the Gaelteacht summer schools which are a real immersion in the language, music & oral traditions from different parts of the country. 
Related to this & something which many are familiar with here is Comhaltas Ceolteórí na hÉireann which has branches all over the planet. For all that they are both loved or loathed by different aspects of the tradition, they have been very influential in providing a focal point & outlet which legitimised parents in allowing their youngsters to pursue traditional music as a formal subject in schools. 
There are also countless local music learning groups both permanent & set up around the various festivals and fleadhs throughout the year.
Then there's the playing at home or around the neighbours to get a bit of practice in, which is completely unquantifiable, but very normal for people. 
(I've been told that's actually the original meaning of the word céilí & it might even have come from the French language as many of our words & names did in Ireland) 

From that you'll see that a pub or informal session is not the most likely place you'd be expected to go to noodle along to try & pick up some tunes. It'd be like expecting everyone to go back to school just because you rocked up.
As people have said above, there are learning sessions around, plenty of the best places for a session do the slow & easy ones out back so people don't get intimidated & the pints don't curdle. In some places weekday afternoon sessions are arranged to cater for people to dip their toe in the water without being blown into the weeds.
I think it's really important for people to get a feel for just how different this all is in Ireland. 
Away from that we can try to recreate bubbles to give opportunities to access the core aspects of the tradition, but I'm always conscious of how different it is.
I think this is a major part of where the misunderstanding of things happens.

----------

Ky Slim, 

PhillipeTaylor, 

Ranald, 

Rob Ross

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## Ranald

[QUOTE=Beanzy;1866486]Possibly people aren't aware of just how different the whole ecosystem for trad is in Ireland,
Here in Cornwall we don't have this and up in England they don't either, so it might be worth outlining some aspects here. /QUOTE]

Thanks for that, Eoin. Your post is highly informative, and taught me things I didn't know.

[QUOTE=Beanzy;1866486]There are also countless local music learning groups both permanent & set up around the various festivals and fleadhs throughout the year.
Then there's the playing at home or around the neighbours to get a bit of practice in, which is completely unquantifiable, but very normal for people. 
(I've been told that's actually the original meaning of the word céilí & it might even have come from the French language as many of our words & names did in Ireland) /QUOTE]

In the 1990's, I spoke with Gaelic-speaking Cape Bretoners, mostly from their late seventies to early nineties, about the meaning of _ceilidh_ (the Scottish spelling). One elderly man, fluent in Gaelic, told me that a ceilidh was simply a visit. He said if he met me on the road, he might say, "Come ceilidh with me tonight," the ceilidh being a simple visit between me and his family. At the time, I was at his home doing a tape-recorded interview and he told me, "We're ceilidh-ing right now."

Other Gaelic-speakers said that _ceilidh_ referred to a house visit with some sort of entertainment, not necessarily musical. They mentioned making instumental music, singing in Gaelic, telling stories, and playing games (e.g., cards, board games, indoor games involving large motor skills). Individual families specialized in hosting different kinds of ceilidhs. One house might be more oriented toward instrumental music and dancing, another toward singing, and another toward storytelling. A person could seek out the home that suited their overall preference or immediate interest. A ceilidh wasn't an event with non-stop music or stories. People would gather, discuss the latest news, politics, farming, fishing, and community happenings (i.e., gossip) before moving on to the fiddling or whatever. The entertainment would end, perhaps around 10:30 or 11:00 p.m., when the hosting family would serve "tea" (a meal), then everyone would walk home (in the dark, sometimes after an evening of frightening stories). Houses in this region of east Cape Breton were fairly large, and -- while I hate to destroy older people's fantasies of traditional cultures in which the young sat eagerly at the feet of their elders -- teens and young adults often gathered in a separate room from adults, sometimes carrying on a different activity (e.g., cards rather than singing). The word, ceilidh, unlike most Gaelic words, worked its way into Cape Breton English. Houses that often held ceilidhs were referred to in English as "ceilidh houses". One popular ceilidh house belonged to a couple with five daughters. Not surprisingly, young men always turned up there. In this region, drinking wasn't normally part of ceilidhs, though perhaps it had been before the Temperance movement arrived from New England. Many people still did drink, but not at ceilidhs -- unless they "stepped out behind the barn."

Of course, _ceilidh_ has taken on a new meaning since that time. Most Cape Bretoners today would think that a ceilidh refers to a public entertainment, probably during tourist season, where an audience plans down its cash to hear traditional music (likely, but not always Scottish music). Such ceilidhs may or may not be open to visitors taking part as performers, and if so, usually for brief periods (about five to ten minutes). I went to one advertised "ceilidh" in an Irish community's church basement in Prince Edward Island, and heard an evening of American country music played by locals. Interestingly, ceilidh season in Atlantic Canada has reversed from winter, when farmers and fishers had relatively less work, to summer to summer when there's a paying tourist audience available.

----------

DougC, 

Jim Bevan, 

PhillipeTaylor

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## Beanzy

That's the gist of it. In school our teacher of gaeilge said it came from chez lui and was norman or earlier in origin.

----------

Ranald

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## DougC

I understood the term céilí as a social gathering too. And indeed the context of the local sessiun, the background musical and commercial culture has a large effect on social behavior. 

 Let's not forget that the music was also a form of personal occupation where the tunes were for social gatherings but mainly for the simple joy of playing.

----------

Ranald

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## Ranald

> I understood the term céilí as a social gathering too. And indeed the context of the local sessiun, the background musical and commercial culture has a large effect on social behavior. 
> 
>  Let's not forget that the music was also a form of personal occupation where the tunes were for social gatherings but mainly for the simple joy of playing.


And I suspect that in the past, as is often the case today, many people at the gatherings were neither playing music or listening attentively. A person might just tap a foot in time while talking with a friend, but upon leaving, say truthfully that he enjoyed the music. Many of us, especially musicians, are far more obsessed with music than the average person.

----------

DougC, 

Ky Slim, 

Simon DS

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## JeffD

Wow. In my school one had to be self deprecating about musical instruments, or accept the social consequences. "Yea I play bassoon in the orchestra. My Mom makes me."

----------

Ranald, 

Sue Rieter

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## Simon DS

> And I suspect that in the past, as is often the case today, many people at the gatherings were neither playing music or listening attentively. A person might just tap a foot in time while talking with a friend, but upon leaving, say truthfully that he enjoyed the music. Many of us, especially musicians, are far more obsessed with music than the average person.


Agreed, it’s interesting, the audience attaches quite different values to that of the musician.
If a set begins with a bit practice guitar strumming (seventh chords), a couple of faltering bodhran beats, two stops, a groan, five seconds of noodling from a piano accordion, then three glares and a cough and a another false start with more noodling… then the audience notices.

----------

Nbayrfr, 

Ranald

----------


## Sue Rieter

> Possibly people aren't aware of just how different the whole ecosystem for trad is in Ireland,
> Here in Cornwall we don't have this and up in England they don't either, so it might be worth outlining some aspects here.
> 
> A huge difference is where the basic learning happens and for this the National school system is a big factor.
> When you go to music class in the National schools or the Irish speaking secondary schools, it's going to be learning trad instruments and music first.
> Where I went in a private school in Dublin it was very similar to what my son had here in Cornwall & most English schools (recorders, guitars, classical etc)
> So the National schools have been producing generations of youngsters who leave school with hundreds of tunes & songs learnt by heart & played many times over. (along with many others who wish they could forget them, but won't look to their plight here)
> There's also the Gaelteacht summer schools which are a real immersion in the language, music & oral traditions from different parts of the country. 
> Related to this & something which many are familiar with here is Comhaltas Ceolteórí na hÉireann which has branches all over the planet. For all that they are both loved or loathed by different aspects of the tradition, they have been very influential in providing a focal point & outlet which legitimised parents in allowing their youngsters to pursue traditional music as a formal subject in schools. 
> ...


This is very eye opening and explains alot.

----------


## DougC

To take this issue of cultural background a little further. My wife teaches violin and conducts a student orchestra for adults in a fancy music school. (As a folk musician, I'd look at the fees involved.) Anyway, most all of the people who attend are not only interested in playing classical music but they are very interested in learning Traditional Irish music. Other instructors at the school say their students, young and old, are also interested. All of them come from the usual middle class American musical experience, meaning that they have heard tons of popular commercial recordings and they have very little schooling in music, folk or otherwise.

----------

Ranald

----------


## maxr

OT again, but there are some differences in usage of the word 'ceilidh/ceili'. A few have been discussed above. In the South of England the usual implication is that a band will play for informal folk dancing (often a mixture of English and Scottish dances, maybe with some French or Irish and other dances), usually with a dance 'caller' to walk them through each dance before they do it. A Scottish 'ceilidh' in my experience can have music and song with or without dancing. Also, 'ceilidh dancing' in Scotland usually implies informal and relatively simple Scottish folk dancing to a band, sometimes with but often without a dance caller - typical village hall Saturday night stuff. The speed and energy involved depends on the audience, and ranges from sedate to murderous.  That differentiates it from 'Scottish Country Dancing', the much more complex 'art' version as performed by Royal Scottish Country Dance Society dance clubs, within a fairly narrow tempo range. Then there's 'reeling'. The latter is a selection of probably less than 15, mostly moderately energetic, Scottish dances often learned in private schools or at a few universities, or British Army officer training school. Dancers are usually expected to know the dances, but variations like heel clicking, fancy steps and pressups (with or without handclaps between) are allowed. Reeling is often seen at 'Highland balls', or relatively expensive charity evenings of all sizes - the common factor is that the reeling audience is often fairly affluent. I've always suspected that the reeling dances are deliberately 'exclusive' in that if you don't know them before you arrive, you're probably not from the right background to marry into it  :Smile: .

----------

Ranald

----------


## foldedpath

> That differentiates it from 'Scottish Country Dancing', the much more complex 'art' version as performed by Royal Scottish Country Dance Society dance clubs, within a fairly narrow tempo range.


You're not kidding about a narrow tempo range there. My fiddler S.O. and I once attended a local workshop in playing for Scottish Country Dance, led by a prominent West Coast USA fiddler. We spent all day workshopping the tunes, and then we played that night at a big dance for one of the area's Scottish Country Dance societies. Just a few tune sets as amateurs before the official band took over. All the dancers in kilts and other Scottish attire, the works. There's a group of Scottish expats and those of Scottish descent up here in the Pacific Northwest who take this stuff VERY seriously. 

Anyway, while practicing the tunes, the lead instructor insisted on strict 111 bpm tempo (counted 2/2) for the reels. One of the attendees who knew the leader well, said he was just messing with us by insisting on an odd number, it should be 112 bpm. 

It was an interesting experience, and it's always great to play for dancers, but I'm glad the local pub sessions are more relaxed about varying tempos, both slow and fast. I don't think I'm cut out for playing in a dance band.

----------

Ranald

----------


## adam e

I have to say. As a newbie, I found this whole thread discouraging. I mean, I get it, you don't want to be rude and play over people when you don't know the song, or interrupt instruction by mindlessly playing notes or talking separately. That's just common politeness. And obviously I wouldn't just plop myself down without asking or introducing myself. I don't want to be where I'm not welcome.

But if I go to a session/jam, it'll be to have fun and enjoy others' company and the shared experience of feeling something cool. I spend enough of my day in rigid, cold hierarchies with way too many formal and informal rules and judgmental people. That's not a thing I want to do for fun. I don't want to be there to impress anyone or be impressed by anyone.

I think I'd rather noodle at home with my cat if this is what it's like to play with others.

----------

Ky Slim, 

maxr, 

Nbayrfr, 

Ranald

----------


## JeffLearman

> I have to say. As a newbie, I found this whole thread discouraging. I mean, I get it, you don't want to be rude and play over people when you don't know the song, or interrupt instruction by mindlessly playing notes or talking separately. That's just common politeness. And obviously I wouldn't just plop myself down without asking or introducing myself. I don't want to be where I'm not welcome.
> 
> But if I go to a session/jam, it'll be to have fun and enjoy others' company and the shared experience of feeling something cool. I spend enough of my day in rigid, cold hierarchies with way too many formal and informal rules and judgmental people. That's not a thing I want to do for fun. I don't want to be there to impress anyone or be impressed by anyone.
> 
> I think I'd rather noodle at home with my cat if this is what it's like to play with others.


It's not universal!  There's lots of variety.  Find one that suits you and go for it!  Don't be discouraged before checking them out.

----------

Ranald

----------


## maxr

> I think I'd rather noodle at home with my cat if this is what it's like to play with others.


As a number of folks have said, Adam, it's not like that everywhere by any means. In UK, I'd suggest it's mostly not like that (dunno about USA myself, but I bet it's highly variable). Asking people to recommend a session can have variable results - IMO the best way to figure out a session is to go along, but leave your instrument in the car when you first walk in. If you know some of the tunes you can go get it and join in what you know, if it's all too advanced you can always enjoy listening.  I've been playing fiddle for 50 years (mandolin for maybe 2...), and I do that, sometimes I just don't know the tunes they're playing. Sometimes it's a new session and it hasn't settled in yet. There's one recently started about 50 yards from my house, and I have reports that on the three nights a friend has been there so far, they had 1) nobody playing 2) a semi-pro Irish band at the heart of it playing enough well known tunes not too fast that others could join in, and 3) a mixed ability and style bag of local players who had a good time doing whatever they did. Leave the cat at home, though, it probably wouldn't like it  :Smile:

----------

Nbayrfr, 

Ranald

----------


## Bren

> I have to say. As a newbie, I found this whole thread discouraging.


That's the problem with reading about something too much before doing it!
Playing with others is a great joy and the only way to get started is learn some tunes and jump in.
Just like you said, "enjoy others' company and the shared experience of feeling something cool"
The fact that you care about being rude, playing over people etc puts you ahead already.

----------

Ranald, 

Simon DS

----------


## Mark Gunter

It is a discouraging thing - when you have someone like the OP who defines noodling like that. Noodling, as I understand it in 50+ years of playing, means just what JeffD said, it’s just messing around on your instrument. Random playing about. It’s a valuable tool in the woodshed, it can often lead to writing a new melody! I take noodling at a jam to mean random playing around between tunes, or really at any other time! Granted things vary at jam sessions depending on the leader or group, but IMHO a beginner should be encouraged to at least try to play along and respectfully corrected if they’re causing disruption. Noodling, just playing randomly or playing disconnected fills and licks between tunes is the annoying thing. And not just noodling, but practicing scales arpeggios etc. is rude in such a setting.

----------

Ky Slim, 

Ranald, 

Simon DS

----------


## DougC

Considering the hundreds (yes, hundreds) of people I've introduced the concept of politeness and rules at a pub, a bit of discouragement is the standard response. Most people afterwards have more respect for what the sessiun players are trying to do. 

Any 11 year old can drive a car, but they need to know 'the rules of the road' before they get out there.

----------

Eric Platt, 

foldedpath, 

Jill McAuley, 

Simon DS

----------


## Simon DS

> Most people afterwards have more respect for what the sessiun players are trying to do


-dont know if thats true, most people. 
It depends, and there are different definitions of respect. 

eg. Most slaves respect their master.   :Smile: 
 People in power respect lawyers, etc.

----------

DougC

----------


## Beanzy

Yea because lots of slave owners keep popping up at sessions.
Here's a shot from that session down at the "Old Amphora & Tibia"

I believe things got a bit out of hand when someone called for the Spartacus set.

I think you'll find good sessions are about as close to the real meaning of Anarchy as you can find in a modern setting.

----------

Nbayrfr, 

Simon DS

----------


## JeffD

> I have to say. As a newbie, I found this whole thread discouraging. .


I understand. 

One thing that bonds musicians together, I believe, is we have all found ways of getting past the discouragement. This particular discouragement, and many others.  :Smile:

----------

Simon DS

----------


## Bren

> Here's a shot from that session down at the "Old Amphora & Tibia"
> 
> I believe things got a bit out of hand when someone called for the Spartacus set.


"Who's the guitarist on this one?"

----------


## Simon DS

> "Who's the guitarist on this one?"


Not sure, but it’s a good example of a well managed session. 
There’s someone in the background guarding a huge stack of confiscated bodhrans.

----------


## DougC

The 'noodlers' were sent to the lions as I remember.

----------

Nbayrfr, 

Simon DS

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> People in power respect lawyers, etc.


Unfortunately the people you refer to often claim lawyers as their fig leaves without respecting anything about them... It takes professional honor to oppose this kind of want/appetite (speaking out of experience). 





> Any 11 year old can drive a car, but they need to know 'the rules of the road' before they get out there.


And it takes a knowledegable craftsman to restore the wreck that the 11-year old leaves when he crashes the car.




> Noodling, ... means ... just messing around on your instrument. Random playing about. ... I take noodling at a jam to mean random playing around between tunes, or really at any other time!


Granted that not everybody is able to come up with a "proper" solo/acompanyment etc. It´s a give and take in a session. The acomplished musician has to get off the high horse and give the novice his due. You have to be able to remember where you started from. This also means forgiveness for too loud, too random, to weird playing. And you have to help the beginner along, meaning that you encourage them to play to the best of their ability, help them to not get into other musicians way etc. Other than that, you´re spot on about noodling. Some people are just too self centered to care about playing music with others. They should rather stay with themselves.

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> I have to say. As a newbie, I found this whole thread discouraging. I mean, I get it, you don't want to be rude and play over people when you don't know the song, or interrupt instruction by mindlessly playing notes or talking separately. That's just common politeness. And obviously I wouldn't just plop myself down without asking or introducing myself. I don't want to be where I'm not welcome.
> 
> But if I go to a session/jam, it'll be to have fun and enjoy others' company and the shared experience of feeling something cool. I spend enough of my day in rigid, cold hierarchies with way too many formal and informal rules and judgmental people. That's not a thing I want to do for fun. I don't want to be there to impress anyone or be impressed by anyone.
> 
> I think I'd rather noodle at home with my cat if this is what it's like to play with others.


I think that you do have to learn how not to take yourself too serious (it took me some time). Even the greatest musicians are just human beings. So if you are in a jam session, do not do what you would not want to have done and you´ll be allright. Most of all, don´t be afraid.

What is just awkward is when people are so removed from everything that they do not notice that a jam session means playing with others. Some beginners just don´t notice. I don´t blame them, because they are beginners. But they have to learn. And it is the duty of the advanced musician to encourage them to learn. In the end the beginner will learn or he will willfully stay ignorant. That´s when I have to draw the line.

In the end it´s all about having fun. Musical rules and having fun are not mutually exclusive (and music has rigid rules, though I wouldn´t call them cold. Don´t obey them and your up sh.ts creek).

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> My Understanding: 
> 
> I have been told by a fiddler who taught my wife and I for a time that "noodling" at a session was trying to play along with the tune when you cannot play the tune all the way through at the tempo the group typically plays that tune.  Basically, if you can't play the tune well enough that you could lead the tune, and you try to play along, you are "noodling".  BAD!  
> 
> I have come to learn that some of the other learners in my group do NOT have that understanding of "noodling".  Some others have learned that "noodling" is trying to figure out the tune from scratch, which is not ok at a normal session, but often ok at a learning session.  But "playing along" when you kind of sort of "know" the tune is perfectly acceptable at "most" sessions.


I do think you have to let go of your "understanding". 
- Play as good as you can (in a jamsession, alone, for others, in a concert; play like you wrote the song, like you own it)
- Don´t do what you don´t want others to do while you play (like being louder than you, playing a different rythm than the one you play, playing in a different key from the one you play in, playing into your solo - it all happened... to me too)
- Do to others what you would want others to do to you (see above)
- Don´t take others too earnest (they too are just human and maybe they secretly envy you)
- Don´t take yourself too earnest (you too are human and there´s definetly someone playing better than you)
- Don´t play too loud (about 99 % of all jam sessions are waaaay too loud)
- Have fun (and don´t you ever forget that)

And if you play in a jam session where I am playing too, don´t forget to remind me to stick to my own rules (because you tend to forget them).

If you do all this, you are not noodling.

----------


## DougC

Olaf, is there anything else you'd like to say?

BTW in (Irish Trad music), it is not called a JAM session. That's for rock and jazz groups.

----------


## Simon DS

Thanks Olaf, it’s such a breath of fresh air to get a wider perspective. I encourage you to share more!  :Laughing: 

Yes there are some ‘seisiúns’ that are different. 
For example does the Greek term for an evening’s  ‘seisiún’ (in Greece) include the odd Greek tune? Misirlou for example. English tunes? French trad?

Remember also, that in the US some trad tunes come from somewhere else… and then from somewhere else again before that, so it’s understandable that ‘noodling’ at sessions/Seisiúns/jam sessions can have different definitions.

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> Olaf, is there anything else you'd like to say?


Yep

----------

DougC

----------


## Jill McAuley

I still can't grasp how something as simple as expecting attendees at a regular session (not a tune learning or slow session) to make an effort to know the tunes/be capable of playing them up to speed is "rigid" or an attitude that cramps people's ability to have "fun". One thing I do wonder is if irish traditional music is seen as some kind of "low hanging fruit" for learners, hence the expectation that some have that they should be able to participate at a session even if they don't know the tunes or can't play them to the same speed as the other attendees.

----------

Bertram Henze, 

Eric Platt, 

Jim Bevan, 

PhillipeTaylor

----------


## Jim Bevan

Jazz open-mic/jams don't have this problem because, when a group assembles onstage, the participants discuss what to play, and veto any suggestions that are not known by all.

Any given tune at an Irish session, on the other hand, will have a grey-zone fringe of participants who "kinda" know the tune, and how wide that zone is varies from session to session  confusing for the genre's johnny-come-latelies.

----------


## DougC

_Jamming_ as I understand it, is different than attending a ITM sessiun.  

Jamming is the "low hanging fruit" or playing anything and calling it improv.

----------


## JeffLearman

> Jazz open-mic/jams don't have this problem ...


Jazz jams have all sorts of problems, depending on the personalities of the principals.  Like one I heard recently: Q: What key? A: The usual.

There are plenty of jazz jams where if you don't have the chops, you're not really welcome -- and I don't blame them as long as they're polite in how they communicate that.  There are lots of anecdotes where "polite" wasn't involved at all.

But yeah, in general, when everyone's on the same page, jazz jams are a lot more democratic.

Blues jams are more like the popular backyard football play: "Everyone go out!"  (Meaning, for any folks who aren't familiar with US backyard football, everyone try to catch a pass -- or in the blues jam, everyone make whatever noise you want; extra credit if you're too loud.)  Personally, I love blues jams, but I wouldn't go to one if I wasn't playing in it!

----------


## Eric Platt

> I still can't grasp how something as simple as expecting attendees at a regular session (not a tune learning or slow session) to make an effort to know the tunes/be capable of playing them up to speed is "rigid" or an attitude that cramps people's ability to have "fun". One thing I do wonder is if irish traditional music is seen as some kind of "low hanging fruit" for learners, hence the expectation that some have that they should be able to participate at a session even if they don't know the tunes or can't play them to the same speed as the other attendees.


My own take is it's quite the opposite. ITM is the highest hanging fruit. It's one music I will continue to listen to but not play. At least in an organized fashion. That does include the learning and/or slow gatherings.

The high quality of musicianship is probably why other folks seem to be drawn to playing it. And seem to think it's easy when it's not.

----------


## foldedpath

> One thing I do wonder is if irish traditional music is seen as some kind of "low hanging fruit" for learners, hence the expectation that some have that they should be able to participate at a session even if they don't know the tunes or can't play them to the same speed as the other attendees.


I think it's because Irish trad appears on the surface to be "acoustic adjacent" to other genres of music. Especially here in the USA. Unless you happen to see a piper in the group, the instrumentation isn't all that different from OldTime, Bluegrass or "Folk" jams. An acoustic guitar player isn't going to innocently wander into a typical Jazz piano and horn jam, or a community amateur Classical orchestra, in the same way they might drag up a chair to an Irish session. "Hey, it's an acoustic jam! You guys know any Grateful Dead tunes?" 

There is also the crossover angle, with some instrumental tunes being familiar to players of OldTime or Bluegrass as well as being standards in Irish sessions (although played very differently). 

So sessions in the USA may have to be a little more strict in maintaining guardrails, simply because there are so many other players of acoustic music in this country who will wander in and think the music is approachable with little effort.

That said, I have also heard the opposite from a few people. Like a friend in a former band where we played mostly OldTime/Americana music. He was a very good multi-instrumentalist on mandolin, fiddle, banjo and guitar. He said he didn't like Irish trad because it was too much like Classical music. 

Well, no, it's nowhere hear as technically demanding. I'm not sure exactly why he felt that way, but maybe it was just how slightly alien it can feel to someone steeped in Americana music. And his ear was good enough to know that it really is different.  All those dance rhythms, modes switching within the tunes and so on. Some people just aren't comfortable if it's not steady-on 4/4 drive and the key never changes. 
 :Wink:

----------

Jill McAuley

----------


## DougC

It seems that there are a lot of easy and approachable acoustic folk musics. And that's the experience of most who make assumptions about ITM.  The particular problem is that the sessiun is open, like other groups. Where people 'get into trouble' is in not knowing more about Irish culture and they apply their prior set of rules to the Sessiun. 

The "Too much like Classical Music" comment at least recognizes that there is no particular 'template' for applying chord patterns, and licks and tricks to a variety of tunes.

----------


## Simon DS

Classical music and ITM are recitals.

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> I still can't grasp ...


I had to read the sentences 5 times to get the content right.
Concerning "Irish" stuff: Here (in Germany) people think you can get by with a lot in Old Time, Irish etc. because "everybody plays the melody together really loud and staying in rhythm is not really a thing". I can't tell you how many times this misconception almost drove me over the edge. But it is, what it is.

It is another thing when you have inexperienced musicians that you have to encourage to step into the limelight. Make their day. Let them have their spot even if they do not really know the tune, keep the tempo and what not. It will probably encourage them to get back to the drawing board and improve significantly. (It's a different thing when you're in a jam session with really (!) good musicians. But we're not talking about that).




> _Jamming_ as I understand it, is different than attending a ITM sessiun.  
> 
> Jamming is the "low hanging fruit" or playing anything and calling it improv.


I don't get what ITM means... Otherwise...

No! Jamming/improvising is having an impromptu conversation in a highly artistic language that necessitates commitment of the highest order of your abilities to please not only yourself but also your communicating counterpart, i.e. the fellow musician.

If it's just "beer music" (I coined the phrase because on a now - unfortunately - defunct festival folks used to play at the beer stand, seven banjos, five guitars, three mandolins etc. each louder than the other, pounding it out... it may be fun for a while, but only as long as the beer lasts. It is just like an alcohol fueled conversation. It doesn't mean a thing) it shouldn't be what we're talking about here.

----------


## Sue Rieter

I feel like I might like to start with the "beer music". A tad less intimidating, and less worry about what other people are thinking.

----------


## DougC

ITM stands for Irish Traditional Music

And the term Jamming _is_ as Olaf said, but many think that it is a 'low skill level' contribution to group playing.  One could call it 'noodling in the spotlight'.

----------


## foldedpath

> Classical music and ITM are recitals.


They're very different formats, unless your only criteria is "playing what's written without extended periods of improvisation." 

And what's "written" is just the particular tune setting any local pub session is used to playing. It's not carved in stone like a Bach Classical piece.  You'll never hear 100 different ways to play the actual notes in Bach's music, but you will hear that many different versions of a given Irish session standard if you travel around the world enough.

There is also individual improvisation on a micro scale with how each player decides to ornament a tune. Without ornaments, if you're just playing the bare skeleton notes of a tune it doesn't sound Irish. So there is plenty of room for expression. It's not just reading the notes on a page, or copying what you hear in a recording. This may not be apparent on a casual listening, you have to get deep into listening to what people are doing with this music.

----------

DougC

----------


## Simon DS

Sorry FoldedPath, I was thinking about your friend who said he didn't like Irish trad because it was too much like Classical music.
Maybe he felt that the recitation part makes it less accessible to people for whatever reason? Maybe he saw noodling as a form of self-expression that’s repressed in the more recitative forms of music?

----------


## Bertram Henze

> You'll never hear 100 different ways to play the actual notes in Bach's music...


Well, Jethro Tull took care of this  :Grin: 
Some say, ITM is the disco dance version of Baroque, and people like O'Carolan built the bridge from one to the other. When I last heard the full Christmas Oratorio by Bach, I noticed the high percentage of re-used melody building blocks, just like ITM dance tunes have them. And it starts with a brisk waltz (the rest is a slow session, kind-of). Also, Baroque pieces are very robust against changes in instrumentation - you still hear it's Bach when it's played with a single recorder, just like ITM, but take one drum a way from Wagner and he'll run for his money.

----------

JeffLearman

----------


## Simon DS

> Well, Jethro Tull took care of this


Yes, I went a concert at a music school in Brazil and they improvised Bach and Brahms. Trashed it in some ways. But they did it in a sort of rural style, played as though they didn’t know the pieces off by heart, just the feelings of the melodic phrases with extremely sensitive and nuanced rhythm.

It was AMAZING!

It was like reading a lost manuscript.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I still can't grasp how something as simple as expecting attendees ... to make an effort ... is "rigid"


I can:
- good players make it look effortless and easy
- the absence of conspicuous control mechanisms like conductors, drum sets, front superstars, fixed chord progressions creates the false impression that it works despite being disorganised
- the abundance of simple-looking instruments creates an illusion that the music is simple as well (what can possibly go wrong with just six holes on that little metal whistle thing or with one stick on that tambourine-whatever?)

----------

DougC, 

Jill McAuley

----------


## Ray(T)

All this talk reminds me of a, once famous, British orchestra - the Portsmouth Sinfonia - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6piDRKOwh88

----------

MontanaMatt

----------


## Simon DS

> …what can possibly go wrong with just six holes on that little metal whistle thing or with one stick on that tambourine-whatever?…


One measure played with that whistley-thing, that’s six to the power of eight.
That’s 1,679,616 noodling possibilities just with one measure (assuming it’s Bluegrass -no rest notes). 

-I’ve only calculated for one measure because if you noodle randomly like that at a session you may not make it past the first measure.  :Laughing:

----------


## Bertram Henze

> that’s six to the power of eight.


Actually, it's fourteen to the power of eight, because all holes open is the seventh note in the octave, and there's two octaves to the whistle. Seamus Tansey may have a different opinion on the difference an octave makes, though  :Cool:

----------

Simon DS

----------


## foldedpath

Ah, but on a typical D whistle there are at least three more notes in two octaves. The cross-fingered C natural, half-holed G#, and half-holed F natural. Some players may be able to half-hole a Bb, I'm not sure about that. You're going to have to re-do the math on noodling potential. 
 :Grin:

----------

Bertram Henze, 

Simon DS

----------


## Amanda Gregg

Thanks, all, for this thread, which has been a fascinating opportunity to learn about the culture of a genre I understand very poorly. 

All players when stepping into a session or jam centered around a certain genre should learn the rules of engagement. I think you can learn a lot from working within those structures. At the end of the day, that genre might not be for you, and that's fine. 

As a bluegrass player, I'm very surprised to see improvisation described in this thread as "low-hanging fruit," since in my experience it is a huge leap for many beginning players to play something original at all. I love to see the moment someone makes the leap and improvises for the first time. All forms have their challenges. I can also see how annoying it may be for an intermediate musician who has just made that leap to try it out in musical situations where it is not appropriate. That's part of developing as a musician.

I haven't found myself ready to receive the message of ITM myself, but I have enormous respect for the form and enjoy listening to it done well very much.

----------


## DougC

Every genre has it's own challenges and Bluegrass is no exception. 

In Irish music the challenge is in memorizing a lot of tunes.

How many Irish tunes can you hum the first phrase? Or the first few notes? It is very important.

----------

Amanda Gregg

----------


## foldedpath

> As a bluegrass player, I'm very surprised to see improvisation described in this thread as "low-hanging fruit," since in my experience it is a huge leap for many beginning players to play something original at all.


When I first started diving down the well of Irish music, my previous life had been as a guitar player who enjoyed improvisation in formats like Rock and Blues, where you're given a lengthy space with other musician support to do that.

It took me a while to realize that in Irish trad it's very different. It's unison melody so you can't just go nuts with it, but there is improv on at least two different levels plus an appreciation for writing new tunes:

1) The micro level of ornamentation. It doesn't sound "Irish" unless you're playing more than just the bare notes, articulating them in different ways. Mandolin players are limited in this compared to sustaining instruments with their cuts, rolls, taps, cranns and so on, but we at least have the "treble" ornament, hammer-ons and pull-offs. Everyone in an Irish session or trad band can be throwing different ornaments on the tune being played in different places and different styles, but it all works out because the main notes in the melody still stand out.

2) The next level of improv is slightly varying the notes you play with each repeat of a tune, so it doesn't sound boring if you're playing it three times through before going to the next tune in a set. This is not for pub sessions, more of a performance or recording thing for more advanced players.

3) The last and most advanced level is writing new tunes. My S.O. attended a workshop with Irish fiddler Liz Carrol, and she had everyone leave the room, go outside by themselves and try to come up with a unique melody. Not everyone can do this, but she said it was worth at least trying because it's a living tradition. We're not all playing 200 year old tunes, although that may be most of the session repertoire.

----------


## PhillipeTaylor

> It is a discouraging thing - when you have someone like the OP who defines noodling like that. Noodling, as I understand it in 50+ years of playing, means just what JeffD said, it’s just messing around on your instrument. Random playing about. It’s a valuable tool in the woodshed, it can often lead to writing a new melody! I take noodling at a jam to mean random playing around between tunes, or really at any other time! Granted things vary at jam sessions depending on the leader or group, but IMHO a beginner should be encouraged to at least try to play along and respectfully corrected if they’re causing disruption. Noodling, just playing randomly or playing disconnected fills and licks between tunes is the annoying thing. And not just noodling, but practicing scales arpeggios etc. is rude in such a setting.


Wow!  As the Original Poster, OP, I don’t think that’s fair at all!  

I clearly explained that I’d been told this by a violin teacher my wife and I had, and that another person defined it differently, and asked to find out what the “real” scoop was, since it seemed so different, depending on who you ask.  I also explained where I was in my journey, which is closer to beginner than many here, which is why I asked.  

So, blame the violin teacher.  I’m reading the responses to learn, myself.

----------


## Simon DS

> Wow!  As the Original Poster, OP, I don’t think that’s fair at all!  
> 
> I clearly explained that I’d been told this by a violin teacher my wife and I had, and that another person defined it differently, and asked to find out what the “real” scoop was, since it seemed so different, depending on who you ask.  I also explained where I was in my journey, which is closer to beginner than many here, which is why I asked.  
> So, blame the violin teacher.  I’m reading the responses to learn, myself.


-no problem, I think there are some confusing errors in this (strange)  thread where half the posts are talking about a different post than the one cited along with other strange dis-connects.

(Quotes of others or clear references to the resources used, please. Academic resources are for sharing).


To make the thread even stranger, here’s a vid with NO MANDOLIN CONTENT, though it is a great example of improv in Bluegrass. 

It shows many different playing styles, none of which are noodling!   :Smile: 
Talk about varied pick hand movements!



https://youtu.be/mwcl4wtlNy8

----------

JeffLearman

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> I feel like I might like to start with the "beer music". A tad less intimidating, and less worry about what other people are thinking.


No, you would not. Let me quote you:_"Hey, I think putting on the new (old) Handel tuners made her sound better, added to the sustain or something like that. Well, they work better than the repros did anyway. And they (along with the pickguard and tp cover) look freakin' awesome!"_
You chose great (original) tuners for your beautiful mandolin not just to have it functional but to have it in the most beautiful functional way (financially) possible. Think of playing music in the same way. You would like to play with people that do listen to you play to the best of your ability. That is the case in a proper jam session (and not in a "beer music" context). "Beer music" is just playing without thinking about it. That gets stale pretty quickly.




> All players when stepping into a session or jam centered around a certain genre should learn the rules of engagement. I think you can learn a lot from working within those structures. At the end of the day, that genre might not be for you, and that's fine. 
> 
> As a bluegrass player, I'm very surprised to see improvisation described in this thread as "low-hanging fruit," ...


Playing with others incorporates the same rules in any genre. Play too loudly (or too quietly), not in tune or out of rythm and you´ll find yourself in trouble be it a chamber music group, a bigband or a bluegrass group. This goes for any kind of playing together be it a classical music rehearsal or a jam session. There are "rules" that I think are genre specific but in general this and playing to the best of your ability and listening to your fellow musicians is "it".

I think that regarding jamming as a "low hanging fruit" is a misconception of many. People that think of jamming as the low hanging fruit think they can get by with sloppy playing. They want to play "beer music" as the low hanging fruit. 

A proper jam session works with people with lesser musical skills also. Having a conversation is also possible with people that are not well versed in a language. You just have to chose the topics acordingly. 
Conversation about rocket science or Immanuel Kant = Sierra Hull, Jason Carter, Mike Bubb, Ronnie McCoury, Bryan Sutton jamming. 
Conversation about where you come from = average Joe´s jam session. 
There´s nothing wrong with either. Neither is a low hanging fruit. 
Alcohol fueled party talk = people playing their instruments while mainly focusing on their own playing while trying to be loud in order to be heard and calling it a jam session.

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## Sue Rieter

> No, you would not. Let me quote you:_"Hey, I think putting on the new (old) Handel tuners made her sound better, added to the sustain or something like that. Well, they work better than the repros did anyway. And they (along with the pickguard and tp cover) look freakin' awesome!"_
> You chose great (original) tuners for your beautiful mandolin not just to have it functional but to have it in the most beautiful functional way (financially) possible. Think of playing music in the same way. You would like to play with people that do listen to you play to the best of your ability. That is the case in a proper jam session (and not in a "beer music" context). "Beer music" is just playing without thinking about it. That gets stale pretty quickly.
> 
> ...
> 
> A proper jam session works with people with lesser musical skills also. Having a conversation is also possible with people that are not well versed in a language. You just have to chose the topics acordingly.
> Conversation about rocket science or Immanuel Kant = Sierra Hull, Jason Carter, Mike Bubb, Ronnie McCoury, Bryan Sutton jamming.
> Conversation about where you come from = average Joe´s jam session.
> There´s nothing wrong with either. Neither is a low hanging fruit.
> Alcohol fueled party talk = people playing their instruments while mainly focusing on their own playing while trying to be loud in order to be heard and calling it a jam session.


You're right, of course, Olaf, when you put it that way. All the accumulated newbie insecurity is just hard to process.

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## DougC

> You're right, of course, Olaf, when you put it that way. All the accumulated newbie insecurity is just hard to process.


This topic I hope, has brought a lot of valuable information and clarification about Sessiuns and other gatherings of musicians in different fields. So if you have read this thread, you really are no longer a 'newbie'.

----------


## PhillipeTaylor

I hear the newcomers who claim they are “discouraged” and I can understand that.  

At the same time, Irish Traditional Music is, unlike a lot of music, an open forum for players to participate that is somehow also a “performance” level event.  Most music performed in public nowadays is performed on stage with a group of people who practiced in private for a long time first, and you really can’t participate.  We all go to the bar and sit around the stage and clap and sometimes the “band” is good enough that they can make us pay to listen to them.  

Certainly there are “jam sessions” for people to just come to a place, usually a music store or private home, and player screw around, maybe play some popular tunes and anyone present can try to join in and participate and figure out what to do.  These “public” jam sessions are really more like a “learning session” than anything else, and that’s great.  They are open and provide a great deal of opportunities for people to learn and grow as well as to showcase growth and opportunities to practice some tunes with people. Sometimes a few really good players thrown down a great tune that drops everyone’s jaws, and other times it’s just pure, joyful chaos.   Jam sessions are awesome!!!

Irish Traditional Music is just another thing, though, neither a “jam session” nor a “band performance”. and making it into a “jam session” or thinking it should be just seems to me to be not paying attention to this third cool zone.  It’s neither a “jam session” nor it is a formal “performance”.  Somehow, ITM has created this cool, third “zone” of musical “performance” and I just think it’s sad that people need to make it into something it’s not.

Being now in a position to plan these events, and looking for venues, I think it’s helpful for people “discouraged” learn something about how organizing a ITM session works: 

First, ITM often occurs in a pub or a business.  Business owners ALLOW these events, usually on their less busy days.  You can’t just go in and start playing somewhere.  The business owner will kick you out, eventually. You might get away with it once, maybe twice, but the owner or someone will eventually tell you to stop.  You get PERMISSION to run your session at a pub or cafe or some business CONTINGENT upon the condition that the event draws people and is at least CLOSE to a performance level event.   They don’t want a “jam session” in their business on a regular basis.  Sorry, just the facts of business.  If you think that’s inaccurate, go try to organize a random “jam session” at your local pub or coffee shop every Tuesday.  If your local business owner allows that - great.  But trying to organize these events, I can tell you, that’s a rare phenomena. And I’m the kind of person who is willing to try the principle of “better to apologize after, than seek permission.”  So… I know this from experience  :Laughing: . Most business owners want something quite a bit more refined and organized.  If it gets too sloppy, the pub owner will tell the event organizer not to come and play there anymore.  

Second, ITM allows the OPPORTUNITY for any Joe off the street who has put in the requisite practice to show up at a pub, sometimes from out of town, even, and come by to “sit in” on a performance level event, provided the “normal Joe” can keep up.  Try that with the next band that goes on stage.  Bring your mandolin and go up to the band between sets and ask if you can “sit in” with the band and maybe take a solo.  We simply don’t have an access point for people at this point.  (Who does Beyoncé think she is?!  I’ve been practicing this tune for MONTHS!!!).  

ITM is the only kind of music that I know of that has claimed this “zone” of putting on an event that is polished enough to come off as a “performance” in a public locale, while also being open for some level of participation by audience members, both for musicians and dancers.  That’s a pretty cool zone, and I think you have to honor that zone and try to step up to it, rather than try to change the format into something that, quite frankly, will just lead to the players being banished from playing in pubs and public forums completely.

----------

DougC

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> You're right, of course, Olaf, when you put it that way. All the accumulated newbie insecurity is just hard to process.


Unfortunately often enough technically better pickers are adverse to novices (or people they don´t know) to join in a seemingly open session. This is something that really gets my goat. I cannot count the times when I had to show people that I could dance circles around them befor they accepted my playing...

This is why I am preaching that nobody needs to be intimidated by other musicians. At one time they were as good as you (or less good). The best musicians are kind, outgoing and encouraging in a jam session.

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## DougC

> Unfortunately often enough technically better pickers are adverse to novices (or people they don´t know) to join in a seemingly open session. This is something that really gets my goat. I cannot count the times when I had to show people that I could dance circles around them befor they accepted my playing...
> 
> This is why I am preaching that nobody needs to be intimidated by other musicians. At one time they were as good as you (or less good). The best musicians are kind, outgoing and encouraging in a jam session.



I remember a session in Madison Wisconsin where we had to suffer thru a whole evening of watching this piper dominating the sessiun, (he was the supposed leader of that sessiun). He played only obscure pipe tunes in order to keep us 'visiting musicians' from joining. I had my violin ready but,  I was a snob too as I looked at this guy_ holding a nice mandolin_ with a frown. I thought to myself that he's a Bluegrasser and probably knows nothing about Irish Music. We never did get to play that night but we did have a few beers and a nice talk about building mandolins. So the social side of the Sessiun overcame poor attitudes. And we left that evening as good friends.

----------

Eric Platt, 

PhillipeTaylor

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## MontanaMatt

> All this talk reminds me of a, once famous, British orchestra - the Portsmouth Sinfonia - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6piDRKOwh88


Thanks for the laugh!

----------


## Simon DS

Thanks Ray(T). This is the most enthusiastic performance I’ve heard.

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## Ray(T)

(Many) other recordings are avalable!

----------

Simon DS

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## DougC

O.K. back to Irish Music. 

You can 'play along' in the _privacy of your own home_ with these videos made by and Shannon and Matt  Heaton. They play slowly and they really understand the process of learning Irish Traditional Sessiun Music. Shannon is remarkably welcoming and supportive. (They are excellent musicians too. Flute and guitar / bouzouki.) You can play along with any instrument and at the same time feel like a member of a world wide online group; sort of like belonging to MandolinCafe.
Highly Recommended. And at home, you can noodle all you want!

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...B03R9bE7MkGBl0

----------

Eric Platt, 

maxr, 

PhillipeTaylor, 

Sue Rieter

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## Eric Platt

> I remember a session in Madison Wisconsin where we had to suffer thru a whole evening of watching this piper dominating the sessiun, (he was the supposed leader of that sessiun). He played only obscure pipe tunes in order to keep us 'visiting musicians' from joining. I had my violin ready but,  I was a snob too as I looked at this guy_ holding a nice mandolin_ with a frown. I thought to myself that he's a Bluegrasser and probably knows nothing about Irish Music. We never did get to play that night but we did have a few beers and a nice talk about building mandolins. So the social side of the Sessiun overcame poor attitudes. And we left that evening as good friends.


Suddenly dawned on me that the odds are fairly good I know who that piper was. Even though (a) I've never been to a session in Madison, WI and (b) the number of people I know who can play pipes is very limited. But it sure sounds like something this person would do.

- - - Updated - - -




> I remember a session in Madison Wisconsin where we had to suffer thru a whole evening of watching this piper dominating the sessiun, (he was the supposed leader of that sessiun). He played only obscure pipe tunes in order to keep us 'visiting musicians' from joining. I had my violin ready but,  I was a snob too as I looked at this guy_ holding a nice mandolin_ with a frown. I thought to myself that he's a Bluegrasser and probably knows nothing about Irish Music. We never did get to play that night but we did have a few beers and a nice talk about building mandolins. So the social side of the Sessiun overcame poor attitudes. And we left that evening as good friends.


Suddenly dawned on me that the odds are fairly good I know who that piper was. Even though (a) I've never been to a session in Madison, WI and (b) the number of people I know who can play pipes is very limited. But it sure sounds like something this person would do.

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## DougC

That piper is just an example at this point. No 'hard feelings' intended by me.  At that time however was at a mandolin builders workshop and I'm sure _someone here at Mandolin Cafe_ was the guy I had given the 'stink eye'. Ha, ha. 
(I was attending a violin makers workshop...).

Now let's play some tunes online with the Heatons! 
They start after a few minutes of waiting for people to check in, and then, after some talking.
_Skip ahead for the tunes._

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Eric Platt

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## DougC

Noodling! Matt is noodling on the guitar at 9:43     :Disbelief: 





> That piper is just an example at this point. No 'hard feelings' intended by me.  At that time however was at a mandolin builders workshop and I'm sure _someone here at Mandolin Cafe_ was the guy I had given the 'stink eye'. Ha, ha. 
> (I was attending a violin makers workshop...).
> 
> Now let's play some tunes online with the Heatons! 
> They start after a few minutes of waiting for people to check in, and then, after some talking.
> _Skip ahead for the tunes._

----------

Eric Platt

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## kickapooviking

I've had two awful noodling experiences at our little Irish session in Wisconsin.
The first was a local fellow who showed up with a penny whistle. We realized immediately that he didn't know a single tune! Yet he noodled every single tune anyone started. Ruined the session...

The second was a similar situation when a guy brought one of those tiny, but very loud, banjos to the session. He sat on a stool right next to me left ear and he too, obviously, didn't know any tunes, but came to "jam and learn".

Outrageously rude and impolite!

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## Simon DS

> … he didn't know any tunes, but came to "jam and learn"…


Nice one, so he jammed… you had a nice chat with him… and he learned.  :Smile:

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## DougC

I agree with your take on the situation Simon. However _we_ were not there, and we really don't know what happened. Nice chat? Did he say he spoke with them? To be sure if these guys came again I would move to the other side of the room. But, yea. No harm really. Life goes on.

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## Eric Platt

Been thinking about this thread again recently. My question now is, how long should one show up and just listen (not bring an instrument or try to play) at a learner's gathering before attempting to start? And I would have to assume it will be much longer time doing the same at a slow session before later joining. Correct?

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## Simon DS

Some of the factors or parameters would be:

Number of people already participating.
Do these people know each other already at a social level, are they sociable?
Are they comfortable with the verbal communication of their needs?
Is there a high turnover of new members?
Are they open to foreigners, do they like to share their tradition?
Is there a clear humble leader who has precise achievable objectives and good communication?
Do new members arrive with fixed, nonnegotiable ideas?
Do they tend towards chaos when structures are removed? (eg. Session degeneration when leader who provides structure is absent)
What country is the session in?
What is their relationship to the tradition?
What are the instruments used?
Does your instrument match their traditional music?
What qualities do you have? (not necessarily musical)
Are you determined to put in the work required to keep up with the others who already formed the group and the slow session syllabus?
Is it the beginning of the Academic year, September or October?

Plenty of other ideas have already been mentioned, but I'm sure the best way is just to go and talk to the people at the session.

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## DougC

I think a better question is 'How well do you know yourself?"  
Simon has a number of very good suggestions. 
But in a practical matter for example, if you don't have 'the chops' and are not willing to put in the hard work to 'be good enough' or on the other hand you think you have plenty of skills and experience and think you can excuse any and all mistakes; then there is gonna be some problems there.
I would bring an instrument next time and play when asked and be able to know if they want you 'in' or 'out'. Which only means that more hard work is required.

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## maxr

There may be some reading all this and thinking 'this session business seems like a lot of hassle, maybe I won't bother'. For them, it must be worth saying that most sessions are welcoming, musicians appear to have a lower a**hole percentage than society at large, and there are few of us who have never gone to a session and found ourselves outclassed by the players or knowing none of the tunes. If you can play some tunes, go along and figure it out, you'll probably never meet the session police...

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## Simon DS

That’s a good point Maxr, thankfully almost everyone has a cop inside them, but full-on session police are pretty rare. 
It really depends on the behaviour of new members.
Very few session musicians enjoy being forced into actually playing out the role of cop, but occupying sonic space, eg. over-noodling is a good way to do just that.

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## John Kelly

In our weekly pub session we have a regular core of around eight, including mandolins, fiddles, guitars, accordion, flutes and whistles and small pipes.  Most of us play more than one instrument.  The tunes tend to be traditional Scottish (both fiddle, accordion and pipe tunes), Irish, and a fair number from European and Canadian sources.  We even have the odd song, but it is mainly an instrumental repertoire.  We are all well known to each other and have played together away from the session in various combinations.  Living in a small and fairly rural community folk who play instruments soon get to know who plays what and where there will be music being played which will be of interest to them.  When we get someone coming along to join in we always try to make them feel at home and when they have brought an instrument we will invite them to play something of their own choice.    

It is vital to remember that when you play in an open pub session the other customers are not necessarily there to listen to you but to have a pleasant evening out with their families or friends and that we, the players, are just a sort of background sound wallpaper.  A bit like all those pubs that have a television on the wall which nobody seems to be watching but which is there!  It is different when the pub is putting on a special evening, as happens in our local here once a month; the landlord promotes players (singers rather than instrumentalists) who will have a much less traditional repertoire, usually popular songs which the audience can sing along to. 

Recently we had a couple of visitors sitting at a table near us who were  obviously listening to the music rather than sitting chatting as other  customers are generally doing.  We knew they were visitors as none of us knew them.  I did say we live in a fairly small community!  The lady came across between tunes and asked if they might be able to sit in for a tune or two.  They were here on holiday and had been told that there was a session on in the pub that they might like to come along to.  She had a fiddle and her husband had one of those Melodicas that were popular some time back - made by Hohner, it has a piano keyboard and was played by blowing into it, like a flute, and using the keys to get the notes.  He had his Melodica with a flexible plastic tube attached so that he could have it on the table rather than up at his mouth. Neither played our sort of tunes but they were both fine musicians and quickly got into the music.  She watched our two fiddlers and he quickly got down to playing backing chords.  It was just a case of telling him the key(s) of a set before we started.  We asked them to play something from their own repertoires.  It came out that she was a violinist with a lot of European folk music in her repertoire and he composed tunes and jingles for television programmes.  A good evening was had by all.

----------

Jim Garber, 

Simon DS

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## Eric Platt

Folks,  I was exclusively speaking of the learning session. Not a regular one. Or even the slow session. The beginning learning session.

Sounds like I am again being told not to bother, since I'm not at a pro level player of that particular style. And I will definitely honor that.

Thanks.

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## Jim Garber

> Folks,  I was exclusively speaking of the learning session. Not a regular one. Or even the slow session. The beginning learning session.
> 
> Sounds like I am again being told not to bother, since I'm not at a pro level player of that particular style. And I will definitely honor that.
> 
> Thanks.


Eric:
I am not sure what you are referring to when you say a “learning session.” I would consider a slow session as a place to learn. It sounds like this is a particular session that you have attended and had a bad experience?

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## John Kelly

Eric, as far as our session that I was mentioning above, anyone is welcome, whatever the level.  Only one of our regulars is a pro-level player, and is in fact a pro!  The rest of us are a very mixed bunch of reasonable proficiency who are out for a bit of fun playing with other like-minded folk.  It seems that you may, as Jim says, have experienced a very unwelcoming session somewhere.  You would be very welcome to drop in and join us, though it would be a bit far for an evening, I reckon, as I see you are in St Paul MN.  Our furthest regular does a forty mile round trip to join us whenever he can.

Jim mentions the Slow Session and here in Scotland one of our best instructors, Nigel Gatherer, runs regular Slow Sessions as well as mixed workshops (which he calls Mixter Maxter).  He has a website full of great material and here is a link to the Teaching section of the site:  http://www.nigelgatherer.com/teaching.html 
In mid-August I attended a two-day workshop with Nigel here in Argyllshire where there were around thirty folk present, from highly competent to beginner, and with a wide range of instruments.  Nigel sends out the notation beforehand as well as soundfiles and the object of the workshop is to get everyone playing at their level of comfort and the end product is to have sets and/or arrangements tried out and discussed.  Everyone is encouraged to contribute with ideas.  You may be lucky enough to find similar workshops somewhere near you.

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## Jill McAuley

> Folks,  I was exclusively speaking of the learning session. Not a regular one. Or even the slow session. The beginning learning session.
> 
> Sounds like I am again being told not to bother, since I'm not at a pro level player of that particular style. And I will definitely honor that.
> 
> Thanks.


No one attending a "learner's session" would be at "pro" level or expected to be, far from it. I do think there's a subtle difference between "slow" sessions and "Learner's" sessions in that at the slow session the tunes are played at slower speed, but the session isn't teaching tunes, vs. a learner's session where (from what I've read about a few I've seen advertised) there would be an experienced musician acting as the session leader and they'd be teaching some tunes which the group would learn together. I saw one learner session that specifically stated that they taught tunes that were commonly played in the slow session that followed so that learners could eventually "graduate" to the slow session and obviously from there eventually move up to the regular session. 

So getting back to Eric's question, I don't think there'd be any expectation that you would need to first attend several learner's sessions without your instrument - the whole point of them is learning, no one would be expecting you to know the tunes or be a fluent player. Now if we're talking about a slow session (or regular session) then it might be an idea to attend without your instrument one or two times so as to 1) get an idea of some of the tunes being played and 2) meet some of the attendees. I don't think anyone would expect someone to know all the tunes/sets the session in question plays, but by going along just to listen you can get an idea of which tunes/sets they play that you do know and initially just play along with the tunes/sets you know and over time learn the other sets that are common to that particular session or indeed introduce new sets that could become part of that session's regular repertoire.

----------

John Kelly

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## Simon DS

Another one is emotional support. 

Be aware that humans, the way they are, will give a lot more emotional support to the people who lead, play well, are pretty, good sense of humour, buy a lot of drinks, bring biscuits and cakes, positive and optimistic, attentive and considerate, married to a good musician, sober car driver, gregarious etc. 

It doesnt require a lot of effort to be valuable to a group. But it does require effort if you dont naturally enjoy giving and sharing in a group. Just trust that the group produces and share much more than all of the members as individuals.

If you arrive as a complete beginner you will be welcomed but thats probably it. 
As you start to give, and enjoy giving to the group (in many ways) you will be more accepted.

----------


## DougC

I have learned that there are people who abuse the kindness of others just to get attention. They have this 'hidden agenda' and only appear to be earnest. (I hope Eric is not one of these folks...) 

You only need to be a 'pro-level' player at a couple of very easy tunes like John Ryan's Polka and Jack Mitchell's Polka to be accepted in a Learners Slow Session. The rest is purely social 'give and take'.

----------


## JeffD

> Been thinking about this thread again recently. My question now is, how long should one show up and just listen (not bring an instrument or try to play) at a learner's gathering before attempting to start? And I would have to assume it will be much longer time doing the same at a slow session before later joining. Correct?


The simple answer is: when you can play something they play at that gathering.

I used to bring a cassette recorder and record three or four tunes at each weekly jam, and take them home and work on them till I could play one or two. Then look forward with great excitement to the next jam, where I could lead a tune, or at least play along. I would only play along on tunes I had worked on and "got down". 

It was my approach at the time, and I am, in a way, handicapped a bit because of how I got into things. 

Years? I doubt it. I think if you are really getting after it, you cannot help but get some tunes under your belt sooner than later. 

I did continue my recording and evening woodshedding for years and years, but I don't think it took a year to be able to play along on a few tunes, which is the threshold. Ya don't have to be able to do everything, but it is best that you learn to do something.

 :Smile:

----------

DougC, 

John Kelly, 

Simon DS

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## Dan Adams

I’ve followed this thread from it’s beginning with some interest.  I’ve played in a session in Ireland and participated in a few here in the US.  I’ve also personally been chastised for ‘noodling’ at a session.  By no means am I anywhere near an expert on this subject.. but we all have our observations.  When myself and a couple other players were chastised, the ‘official’ session was over so we were reviewing a tune and trying to figure it out.  The ‘better more seasoned player’ proceeded to begin playing another tune and apparently we were interfering?  Players more familiar with all the tunes, no matter how obscure can break into tunes during a season with no verbalization as to what the tune is or what tune may follow in the medley, but those of us attempting to learn get a verbal rebuke.  Seems to be a double standard to me?

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## Simon DS

Is a minute of silence before a tune important? 
Like not eating a snack before a meal?   :Smile: 
Is silence part of a tune or session? Is silence, nothing, or something?

When someone plays a beautiful piece, solo at a session and in some cultures there is an utter silence afterwards, how does that feel? 
Like something awe-inspiring has just happened?

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## Eric Platt

Want to thank everyone for the thoughtful responses. Yes, I have a history of not being welcomed to what was supposed to be Learner/Slow sessions. In fact, when inquiring about one many years ago in the Twin Cities, was told that "if you have 20 years of playing the music professionally, then you can join the slow session". Yes, that made quite the impression. And no, I did not believe the person telling me that was pulling my leg. 

Hopefully I will eventually take the time to join the beginner classes through Celtic Junction locally. And then maybe try to go from there.

Thank you.

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## Jill McAuley

> I’ve followed this thread from it’s beginning with some interest.  I’ve played in a session in Ireland and participated in a few here in the US.  I’ve also personally been chastised for ‘noodling’ at a session.  By no means am I anywhere near an expert on this subject.. but we all have our observations.  When myself and a couple other players were chastised, the ‘official’ session was over so we were reviewing a tune and trying to figure it out.  The ‘better more seasoned player’ proceeded to begin playing another tune and apparently we were interfering?  Players more familiar with all the tunes, no matter how obscure can break into tunes during a season with no verbalization as to what the tune is or what tune may follow in the medley, but those of us attempting to learn get a verbal rebuke.  Seems to be a double standard to me?


How is it a double standard? There's a difference between someone starting a tune and someone trying to learn a tune. It's fairly common at sessions I've attended for tunes to be launched into without any announcement as to what the tune is or what the tunes that follow it in the set will be - at a regular session attended by experienced players most folks will be able to hear the first few notes and know what the tune is and join in. At a slow session it may differ where the sets are announced prior to launching into them. 

Something else to consider is that if a session is held in a pub, part of the attraction is that people sitting with a pint can enjoy the music. It may be less enjoyable for them to sit and listen to a few people trying to learn a tune. Most of the "learners sessions" I've seen advertised tend to be held in upstairs function rooms at a pub or in community halls, so that folks can learn without the added pressure/distractions of members of the public surrounding them whereas the slow session/regular session would take place downstairs in the pub itself since the tunes are just being played rather than parts being repeated, pauses while people try to figure out what note is next etc., stuff that your average pub goer may not have much patience for.

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foldedpath, 

Simon DS

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## John Kelly

A really well explained distinction between the different sorts of gatherings that exist, Jill.  Pub sessions played in front of regular or casual customers are generally very different from the workshop or slow session where tunes are being learned and practised.  As you say, the folk in the pub, in for a drink and a chat, don't enjoy watching or listening to the learning process, and equally the learners do not need the distraction of an audience.  As pub session players we are providing some background noise to accompany the socialising of the customers.

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Jill McAuley, 

Simon DS

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## Jim Garber

> Want to thank everyone for the thoughtful responses. Yes, I have a history of not being welcomed to what was supposed to be Learner/Slow sessions. In fact, when inquiring about one many years ago in the Twin Cities, was told that "if you have 20 years of playing the music professionally, then you can join the slow session". Yes, that made quite the impression. And no, I did not believe the person telling me that was pulling my leg. 
> 
> Hopefully I will eventually take the time to join the beginner classes through Celtic Junction locally. And then maybe try to go from there.
> 
> Thank you.


Eric: I have heard you play and you are no beginner at all but an accomplished musician. I just checked your name again to make sure you are are not a doppelnamer for the Eric Platt I know. Then it occurred to me that you are perhaps playing a different instrument not mandolin. I know you mentioned that this was perhaps in a different genre. And I guess you don’t want to divulge this genre? I am still a bit perplexed. A learners session for only pro-level players is some sort of oxymoron.

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Eric Platt, 

Simon DS

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## Simon DS

Interesting point there John. 
Musicians at a pub will be playing with an almost continuous rumbling chatter in the background, a bit like the sound of a crackling fire in the hearth. Comforting, warm feelings.

However, and this is where it comes back to noodling, sometimes all it takes is a couple of notes -random, blithely nonchalant, exploratory, chromatic, polyrhythmic notes… 
Bad notes.
…and feelings can change quite rapidly.  :Laughing:

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## foldedpath

> In fact, when inquiring about one many years ago in the Twin Cities, was told that "if you have 20 years of playing the music professionally, then you can join the slow session". Yes, that made quite the impression. And no, I did not believe the person telling me that was pulling my leg.


If that person wasn't pulling your leg, maybe they were turned off by that session for other reasons? Maybe just not a good fit for the music? I had a friend I met in local OldTime jams, a decent fiddler who didn't like Irish music or Irish sessions because he said it was too much like Classical music, too difficult to play. Which it isn't, not by a long shot, but it was a preconception I never managed to break through.




> Something else to consider is that if a session is held in a pub, part of the attraction is that people sitting with a pint can enjoy the music. It may be less enjoyable for them to sit and listen to a few people trying to learn a tune. Most of the "learners sessions" I've seen advertised tend to be held in upstairs function rooms at a pub or in community halls, so that folks can learn without the added pressure/distractions of members of the public surrounding them whereas the slow session/regular session would take place downstairs in the pub itself since the tunes are just being played rather than parts being repeated, pauses while people try to figure out what note is next etc., stuff that your average pub goer may not have much patience for.


Exactly! One of the local sessions in my area is in a brew pub, and while we do a bit of chatting between tunes, the session leader does her best to keep us on track and the music flowing because we want to keep this venue. The owner is letting us take up valuable table and floor space for the sake of having some free live music. 

It's not the place for a stop-and-start tune learning that might annoy the patrons, or too much noodling, to bring it back to the OP. It's still much more relaxed than a band gig, but there is still the reality that we're in a public space and some people are listening to us, or at least tolerating it as background music.

I have attended private house sessions with this same group and the vibe is different. A little more relaxed, more time spent talking between tunes, taking more chances with unfamiliar repertoire. I like both settings. I enjoy the private house sessions for a more intimate interaction with everyone, and frankly the ability to invite those you know who are musically compatible, without the randomness of a public session. And I enjoy the public sessions because I think a little bit of performance pressure is a good thing. Keeps you on your toes.

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Jill McAuley, 

John Kelly

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## Bren

> How is it a double standard? There's a difference between someone starting a tune and someone trying to learn a tune. It's fairly common at sessions I've attended for tunes to be launched into without any announcement as to what the tune is or what the tunes that follow it in the set will be - at a regular session attended by experienced players most folks will be able to hear the first few notes and know what the tune is and join in. At a slow session it may differ where the sets are announced prior to launching into them. 
> 
> Something else to consider is that if a session is held in a pub, part of the attraction is that people sitting with a pint can enjoy the music. It may be less enjoyable for them to sit and listen to a few people trying to learn a tune. Most of the "learners sessions" I've seen advertised tend to be held in upstairs function rooms at a pub or in community halls, so that folks can learn without the added pressure/distractions of members of the public surrounding them whereas the slow session/regular session would take place downstairs in the pub itself since the tunes are just being played rather than parts being repeated, pauses while people try to figure out what note is next etc., stuff that your average pub goer may not have much patience for.


Exactly.
And if you want your session pub to continue hosting sessions, no better way than to provide music that keeps the good atmosphere going.

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Jill McAuley, 

John Kelly

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## EdHanrahan

> - Is it the beginning of the Academic year, September or October?


Sorry, Simon, the logic behind this one escapes me.  Are you thinking of folks arriving for the new academic year who are unfamiliar w/ local practice?  Few pub-age students would have time to dive into pub sessions (at least in, ya know, September & October), while the number of new teaching staff would be relatively small, and musicians among them far smaller.

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## JeffD

> How is it a double standard? There's a difference between someone starting a tune and someone trying to learn a tune. It's fairly common at sessions I've attended for tunes to be launched into without any announcement as to what the tune is or what the tunes that follow it in the set will be - at a regular session attended by experienced players most folks will be able to hear the first few notes and know what the tune is and join in. At a slow session it may differ where the sets are announced prior to launching into them.


 Exactly exactly.

It is my experience, unless otherwise stated, a jam or session is not a slow jam or learning session. And that the session may or may not be open to all levels of experience sitting in, does not change this.




> Something else to consider is that if a session is held in a pub, part of the attraction is that people sitting with a pint can enjoy the music. It may be less enjoyable for them to sit and listen to a few people trying to learn a tune. Most of the "learners sessions" I've seen advertised tend to be held in upstairs function rooms at a pub or in community halls, so that folks can learn without the added pressure/distractions of members of the public surrounding them whereas the slow session/regular session would take place downstairs in the pub itself since the tunes are just being played rather than parts being repeated, pauses while people try to figure out what note is next etc., stuff that your average pub goer may not have much patience for.


I know of a couple of jams held regularly in restaurants, that have organized a "slow jam" for before. In one case the slow jam is in a separate room outside of the public, as described.

In the other case the slow jam in the same location, but is before the doors open for dinner, and thus out of the public view. The slow jam has chord sheets and even some written out tunes, and take things at various tempos. Very safe and encouraging and helpful. When the doors open for dinner, the jam transitions to regular. All jammers are welcome to stay, but should know the atmosphere is full throttle.

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Jill McAuley

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## twaaang

I always considered the manager's point of view: if piped-in muzak was preferable to what he was hearing from us, we were sure to be toast.  When I was in an "open" session where friends of friends started showing up with (to my horror) music stands and sheet music, I knew we were toast.  You have to appreciate that the venue is a business.  --  Paul

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Bren, 

Jill McAuley, 

Jim Bevan

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## Eric Platt

> Eric: I have heard you play and you are no beginner at all but an accomplished musician. I just checked your name again to make sure you are are not a doppelnamer for the Eric Platt I know. Then it occurred to me that you are perhaps playing a different instrument not mandolin. I know you mentioned that this was perhaps in a different genre. And I guess you don’t want to divulge this genre? I am still a bit perplexed. A learners session for only pro-level players is some sort of oxymoron.


Jim, yes, back during that time, I was merely a guitar player. And just in the old-time music genre, not Irish. Although the person who said what he said did not know that. 

More to this story - this was advertised as a beginner/slow session. However, the day of the week and time seemed to actively discourage beginners. So it ended up that just the folks who were hoping to lead played by themselves instead. Hence the quote given to me. Believe that after a while they just decided to keep it at what it was. And I don't fault them for it. Sounded like a very lively session. Just not for the faint of heart. Or folks who had morning "day jobs." And yes, it was Irish music. Just trying to respectful as there are a lot of folks I know who participated in this one. 

So that is entirely on me. I did not take the warning with the proper meaning. 

Sadly, the one learner's session that's available in person usually conflicts with other things on my schedule. Would like to at least sit in and listen to that once at least one time, though. Just to see what they are playing.

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## Bren

> Sorry, Simon, the logic behind this one escapes me.  Are you thinking of folks arriving for the new academic year who are unfamiliar w/ local practice?  Few pub-age students would have time to dive into pub sessions (at least in, ya know, September & October), while the number of new teaching staff would be relatively small, and musicians among them far smaller.


The main session pubs in Aberdeen are close to the uni, and we always seem to get an infusion of new young musicians (one of these many years ago was Jarlath Henderson, who was already making a name for himself) around about Freshers' Week, (September/October) and a lot of students who just like to hang out and drink and chat in this pub where these old folk (I have to be honest, most of us are ...) are playing Scottish music. 

To many of the foreign students, it's quite exotic, and some end up getting immersed and taking up instruments.

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EdHanrahan

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## Jim Garber

> Jim, yes, back during that time, I was merely a guitar player. And just in the old-time music genre, not Irish. Although the person who said what he said did not know that.


Ah, I think I get it now … not recent and guitar. I would guess that an old time guitar player would conflict with the Irish style of playing.

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## Eric Platt

> Ah, I think I get it now … not recent and guitar. I would guess that an old time guitar player would conflict with the Irish style of playing.


Definitely. Although the person who told me that didn't know that. Or even what instrument I played. And although had been listening to Irish music for a good decade, it wasn't session tunes. Would have been woefully unprepared for any session at that time.

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