# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Classical tone

## billkilpatrick

what is classical tone? does "classical" suggest an orchestral rather than a solo instrument? i prefer a warmer, softer tone on my mandolin - something similar to a lute. would this be "classical?"

i finally started using "heavy" gauge picks and was delighted to find the acute, brittle sound of my neapolitan bowlback much reduced - what a difference a pick makes!

as mentioned earlier, flat and round wound strings produce different tones - which is the more "classical?"

i think it would be generally agreed that bowlbacks look more classical - certainly in terms of 18th/19th cent. paintings - but in terms of tone alone, are flatbacks acceptable?

last question: will i ever be able to write "neapolitan" without using the spelling check?

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## Eugene

The answer varies widely. Unlike "classical" guitars that were largely standardized by Segovia's campaign, mandolins remain diverse without a single "classical" champion ever rising to the fore (I suppose Calace came close, but even he was not so well known amongst the massive American orchestral crowd). There are soloists and orchestras in the mandolin world and some makers (like Embergher) even built distinct instruments dedicated to each purpose.

...And you can always try "napoletano" if you prefer to emulate the place around you.

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## billkilpatrick

thanks eugene.

would "violin scale" have anything to do with it?

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## Eugene

At a time, but no longer.

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## billkilpatrick

oui-oui!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLG-h...eature=related

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## John Goodin

Wow! What a perfect end to the weekend! I think I'll shut off my computer now and work on some dance steps while I ponder the mysteries of tone.

Thanks, Bill, for the inspiration.

John G.

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## billkilpatrick

stumbled across some performances of victor's compositions and even i - yes! (grovel-grovel) - can appreciate the quality and variety of tone produced by the embergher concert mandolins featured here: 

http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=8-stGE...eature=related

http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=plkN40lY0Ps

(later) linda - "plinky-plink" notes in the uppermost register hurt my ears sometimes but i take your point about "mashed potatoes" - too much of a good thing (warm, mellow tone) could sound very dull and lifeless.

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## John Hill

Thanks for the links Bill, I really like those compositions by Victor.

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## Linda Binder

I deleted my pompous tone rant. Apologies Bill! My having done that leaves your mashed potato link hanging out there in seeming randomness....but its a great video so I don't think anyone will mind!

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## vkioulaphides

Thank you for your kind words regarding my two works referenced above, John. I warmly second the opinion on the beauty of tone exhibited by the _instruments_-- without, of course, failing to acknowledge the artistry and skill of the _performers_. 

As you (may) know, the sheet music for both these pieces is available as a free download from the site of ever generous Jim Garber; if you don't already know the address, I'd be happy to post it again.

Having just returned from Athens, I have altogether missed Linda's rant, so I'll be forever in the dark regarding what transpired... But she is of the kind and gentle sort, so I doubt that anyone would have minded. I also surmise that I probably agreed with whatever it was she said.  

Cheers,

Victor

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## John Goodin

I certainly didn't find anything pompous or rant-like (?) in Linda's comments on tone. I thought she made a lot of sense. I liked the mashed potatoes analogy and it led to that delightful 2 minute youtube video suggestion from Bill.

John G.

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## Neil Gladd

> I certainly didn't find anything pompous or rant-like (?) in Linda's comments on tone. I thought she made a lot of sense.


Ditto! I was about to post that she was right on!

Eugene wrote: "Unlike "classical" guitars that were largely standardized by Segovia's campaign, mandolins remain diverse without a single "classical" champion ever rising to the fore (I suppose Calace came close, but even he was not so well known amongst the massive American orchestral crowd)."

Interestingly, to the best of my knowledge, Calace's recordings were never released in Italy!!! His early recordings were recorded and released in Germany, and the later ones in Japan. The recordings of Bernardo de Pace (made in the US) were released in Italy, though. It's very bizarre.

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## Linda Binder

Thanks for thinking my past post had any redeeming value! #When I re-read it this morning it made me roll may eyes a little so I utilized that handy delete button. #I thought it sounded like I had definitive answers when really, tone is so subjective and I've changed my mind in the past about what type of tone I'm aiming for, and how that standard varies with different types of music. # I still constantly try different strings and picks to see how the results strike me. I truly respect Bill's approach to music and the beautiful sound of his charango #-- obviously a man with his ears open to beautiful sounds. So who am I to say "Bill, to play Classical Mandolin you have to play an instrument that's capable of producing a brilliant "ping" in the upper register that you personally find annoying." # 

For those wondering what mashed potatoes have to do with this discussion-- I described, in a slightly mean spirited way, the limited tonal range in an amateur classical guitar recital as "five courses of warm mashed potatoes".

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## Linda Binder

...with butter.

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## John Hill

Thanks Victor, I'm on my way to Garber's site to snag a copy of your work. 

And I didn't find anything wrong with Linda's post either...just kinda made me hungry is all.

Mmmmm....butter.

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## vkioulaphides

OK! Jim G. has all sorts of goodies on his site, offered in his usual spirit of boundless generosity; my own tidbits are to be found, among others, here.

Enjoy!

Cheers,

Victor

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## billkilpatrick

> Thanks for thinking my past post had any redeeming value! When I re-read it this morning it made me roll may eyes a little so I utilized that handy delete button. I thought it sounded like I had definitive answers when really, tone is so subjective and I've changed my mind in the past about what type of tone I'm aiming for, and how that standard varies with different types of music.  I still constantly try different strings and picks to see how the results strike me. I truly respect Bill's approach to music and the beautiful sound of his charango -- obviously a man with his ears open to beautiful sounds. So who am I to say "Bill, to play Classical Mandolin you have to play an instrument that's capable of producing a brilliant "ping" in the upper register that you personally find annoying."  
> 
> For those wondering what mashed potatoes have to do with this discussion-- I described, in a slightly mean spirited way, the limited tonal range in an amateur classical guitar recital as "five courses of warm mashed potatoes".


... how about a re-rant?

me too - the subtleties of tone obtained from a new pick or a change of string (brand name or gauge) seem infinite.

i was more interested to know if those who play in orchestras were ever told to "leave and don't come back until you've got yourself a (----)."

i'm kidding, of course but i gather that bluegrass brahmans would be less than welcoming to someone toting a bowlback and i have yet to see a "f" style mandolin (based solely on what i've seen on youtube) in a modern mandolin orchestra.

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## Woody Turner

"...i have yet to see a "f" style mandolin (based solely on what i've seen on youtube) in a modern mandolin orchestra." --BK 


See: http://www.baltimoremandolinorchestra.org/about.php and http://www.mandoleers.org/takoma_mandoleers.htm (DC area).

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## margora

"i have yet to see a "f" style mandolin (based solely on what i've seen on youtube) in a modern mandolin orchestra."

We have them in the PMO as well. I myself have a Collings MT2 that works superbly in a mandolin orchestra context and (I assume, since I don't play bluegrass) would also work superbly in a bluegrass/popular context.

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## btrott

"i have yet to see a "f" style mandolin (based solely on what i've seen on youtube) in a modern mandolin orchestra."

Bill,

I looked through some of the links on the Mandolin Ensembles page, and there you can find a number of American Mandolin orchestras where players are using f-style instruments. In particular, take a look at the Denver, Baltimore, and Louisville mandolin orchestras. There is a pretty varied assortment of instruments in use, bowlbacks and carved tops (both a and f style).

Barry

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## Jim Garber

> I deleted my pompous tone rant. Apologies Bill! My having done that leaves your mashed potato link hanging out there in seeming randomness....but its a great video so I don't think anyone will mind!


That is funny... I took your PTR literally -- that you needed to go cook some mashed potatoes. Esp since I was reading it when I needed to make some yams. Mashed as well. It all boils down to food anyway, right?

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## Jim Garber

> i was more interested to know if those who play in orchestras were ever told to "leave and don't come back until you've got yourself a (----)."


Rumor has it that in the earlier days of the New York Mandolin orchestra the conductor insisted that everyone play a Lyon & Healy mandolin. There were quite a few of them when I played with them in the 1980s.

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## Klaus Wutscher

And don´t forget the Nashville Mandolin Ensemble,sounds good on my stereo! Anothe group that uses caved , f hole insruments (but not F-5s) is the Melonius Quartet, also with great effect.

That said, pronounced dogmatism about the "right" and "authentic" instrument can be found on either side of the fence!

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## billkilpatrick

i'm surprised (pleasantly) - i would have thought that calaces and emberghers ruled. don't suppose there are as many classical "f's" here in europe.

don't know how many are familiar with robert bancalari's "bach" booklet + cd, published by mel bay, but the first time i heard it, i felt that the "f" style tone he used was odd. NO! criticism intended concerning the playing or the booklet or anything else about the project - it was simply not the tone i was expecting for bach.

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## Klaus Wutscher

> don't know how many are familiar with robert bancalari's "bach" booklet + cd, published by mel bay, but the first time i heard it, i felt that the "f" style tone he used was odd. #NO! criticism intended concerning the playing or the booklet or anything else about the project - it was simply not the tone i was expecting for bach.


Exactly my feelings. However, when I hear Chris Thiele or Mike Marhall or Evan Marshall play classical music it feels "right". But maybe it is all about socialisation- the tone of a good A-5 /F-5 is my point of reference. For a classical player it may well be the other way round.

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## Eugene

I've seen Thile perform several times. I love his stuff. Frankly, I like his approach to Bach much less than to his own stuff. Your taste may vary without shame.

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## Onesound

The concert mistress for the Balt. Mandolin Orchestra plays a Loar F scroll hole carved top. A number of the other players also play F, scroll hole instruments as well as a plethoria of flat tops and bowl backs. The overall sound of their orchestra is "warmer" (if I can use that description) than the recordings of Italian mandolin orchestras that I've heard. It may also be due to their inclusion of bass mando and classical guitar instrumentation. I enjoy both, but personally prefer the more airy tone of a bowl back for solo playing.

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## Brandon Flynn

I like the tone of the F-5 more than classical bowlbacks. I think they have kind of a thin sound. Like someone said, when Thile or either Marshall plays a classical piece, it sounds better to me than the classical recordings I have with bowlbacks. That's my preference, I'm no expert.

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## Bob A

I tend to prefer the sound of Gibson oval-holes to the F5 types, myself, but as mentioned, it's a personal thing.

Hearing a quality bowlback in person might prove enlightening, if one's only experience was via recording. It's true they tend to emphasise the highs; by the same token, Gibsons sound rather guitar-like compared to bowlbacks. All that wood eats the high frequencies. 

Actually, I enjoy the fact that there's so much variation in the mandoworld.

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## billkilpatrick

this has caused me to troll through the videos on youtube, looking - and listening - for bowlbacks. i must say that the embergher style mandolin is a thing of great sound and beauty.

does anyone know where i might hear a good-quality sound sample of a good german bowlback? i've seen several "marcelli" brand mandolins up for grabs on german ebay lately and i'm curious.

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## JeffD

> I've seen Thile perform several times. #I love his stuff. #Frankly, I like his approach to Bach much less than to his own stuff. #Your taste may vary without shame.


I think you are on to something. Its not the tone, necessarily, but the diminished musicality or expressiveness with which they play the classical pieces, compared to how they put their whole self into their own genre of music.

It can sound sort of "see me do this too" as opposed to "listen to how beautiful this can be".

Well, words describing sound, I can never be precise, but you know what I mean.

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## Martin Jonas

> does anyone know where i might hear a good-quality sound sample of a good german bowlback? i've seen several "marcelli" brand mandolins up for grabs on german ebay lately and i'm curious.


You need to distinguish between old German bowlbacks and modern ones -- German luthiers have pretty much reinvented the bowlback in the past 20 years or so. The news ones have very large bowls and a very mellow tone, as discussed in this thread. Sound samples have already been posted for this type. However, I don't think I've ever seen a modern German bowlback on Ebay.

Old German bowlbacks, on the other hand, are largely inferior imitations of Italian ones. With the odd exception, such as the "Solist" range by Herwiga, these are not distinguished instruments. Having seen many instrument marked "Marcelli" on EBay, I have now come around to Plami's view that Marcelli wasn't an instrument maker at all -- it was a maker of tailpieces. Very many German luthiers didn't put any labels in their mandolins, and that leaves the brand name stamped on the tailpiece as the only identifiable logo. Ebay sellers then describe it as "Marcelli mandolin".

Martin

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## billkilpatrick

thank you martin! ... anything that keeps the credit card IN the wallet is g-o-o-d.

i've noticed those broader looking, more fullbodied bowlbacks from herwiga - a là annika luckebergfeld - very nice indeed ... 

... unfortunately, i've got a serious case of "geltnotgotten."

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## Eugene

> I think you are on to something. Its not the tone, necessarily, but the diminished musicality or expressiveness with which they play the classical pieces, compared to how they put their whole self into their own genre of music.


I'm not sure what makes listening to so many crossover efforts such a patient business for me. In part, I think it might be Thile's approach to rhythm. The genres in which Thile is steeped take a very tight, very straight approach to rhythm and tempo, where classical music tends to be more flexible, more fluid. Listening to non-classical musicians play classical music usually feels kinda square, kinda elevator-music-like...and I usually get the same elevator vibe when I hear classical virtuosi trying to play jazz, pop, or folk. I think those who can do crossover convincingly at a very high level are relatively rare. Wynton Marsalis is one who comes to mind.

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## Onesound

I have noted this, too, Eugene, especially with classical violin players. #There is an ablum where Josh Bell plays some acoustic crossover with Edgar Meyer and he sounds too calculated and restrained to my tin ear. #Yet, on classical pieces he is marvelous.

Speaking of German tone, where do the contemporary German flatops fall (like Seifret - I know I murdered the spelling)?

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## Eugene

I believe the album by Het Consort Aranci in Fiore was recorded using flat mandolins by A&M. #Check it out. #The odd, deep-boxed, flat German pieces are considerably less common, and I don't recall any direct experience beyond images of Seifferts in early Plucked String catalogues.

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## RSW

> I have noted this, too, Eugene, especially with classical violin players. #There is an ablum where Josh Bell plays some acoustic crossover with Edgar Meyer and he sounds too calculated and restrained to my tin ear. #Yet, on classical pieces he is marvelous.
> 
> Speaking of German tone, where do the contemporary German flatops fall (like Seifret - I know I murdered the spelling)?


Totally my sentiment as well. The problem with today's recordings is that they are 'over-engineered'. Everything is so tainted by electronics that it is hard to hear anything real and soulful to the sound.

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## jk245

There a long time audiophile dispute between tube vs transistor amplifiers and cd vs record.
If we pull out from the attic our old Victrola and select our old 78's I am sure that our idea of 'classical tone' will change. Evolution does not always mean better, especially when it comes to sound.

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## margora

"I think those who can do crossover convincingly at a very high level are relatively rare. Wynton Marsalis is one who comes to mind." 

Last weekend my wife and I attended a Boston Early Musical Festival (BEMF) performance by Paul O'Dette and Ellen Hargis. Ms. Hargis is one of the world's great singers of early music and Paul O'Dette is, well, in my opinion the greatest instrumentalist of any type in the world. Their regular program consisted entirely of 17th century Italian music (O'Dette played chittarone throughout). When it came time for the encore everyone in the audience was expecting more of the same. O'Dette started playing some decidely un-17th century Italian major 7th/9th chords and Ellen Hargis entered in with "It's quarter to three, there's no one in the place except you and me ...". As the saying goes, the look on the collective faces of the audience was priceless.

Now this was not Sinatra (an aside: most singers won't touch this song because Sinatra "owned" it) nor was it "jazz" (i.e Ella + Joe Pass) of any sort. Ms. Hargis did not embellish the material at all -- she sang it straight with all of the attention to detail that one expects of a world class classical musician -- and the results were supremely beautiful, deeply moving AND absolutely true to the core of the song.

In my opinion, there is no such thing as "crossover" only more or less convincing performances. These are rare regardless of the genre of music. Re: Mr. Marsalis, I'd add Keith Jarrett to the list.

"The problem with today's recordings is that they are 'over-engineered'. Everything is so tainted by electronics that it is hard to hear anything real and soulful to the sound."

I disagree. Tradition (i.e. old playing styles) + old technology are vastly overrated, in my opinion. I almost always (note: not always but almost) prefer a modern recording to an ancient one, and not simply because, on average, the performances are better but because recording technology is vastly better. On guitar I rarely if ever listen to Segovia's recordings -- aside from the playing, which is not to my taste, the recordings do not sound good to my ear. I might make an exception if I was doing historical research on early-to-mid 20th century performance styles but I have no personal need to do this. I'd also make an exception for, say, Django.

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## Acquavella

Quote: "I enjoy both, but personally prefer the more airy tone of a bowl back for solo playing."

I agree. Personally, I love the bowlback sound and, professionally, will always make that my main instrument. However, I prefer the flatback mando for mandolin orchestras and especially quartets. It has a fuller and less harsh sound as an ensemble. Key word being - ensemble. I also like the German instruments for mando orchestra. When I did the European Youth Orchestra, almost everyone had a Knorr, Seiffert or variation there of. The final CD sounded really nice and full.

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## trebleclef528

test... just testing to see if my picture will upload!!

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## vkioulaphides

It sure did, Ian. And these lovely _derrieres_ are... (?)

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## trebleclef528

> Originally Posted by  (billkilpatrick @ Mar. 13 2008, 02:55)
> 
> does anyone know where i might hear a good-quality sound sample of a good german bowlback? #i've seen several "marcelli" brand mandolins up for grabs on german ebay lately and i'm curious.
> 
> 
> You need to distinguish between old German bowlbacks and modern ones -- German luthiers have pretty much reinvented the bowlback in the past 20 years or so. #The news ones have very large bowls and a very mellow tone, as discussed in this thread. #Sound samples have already been posted for this type. #However, I don't think I've ever seen a modern German bowlback on Ebay.
> 
> Old German bowlbacks, on the other hand, are largely inferior imitations of Italian ones. #With the odd exception, such as the "Solist" range by Herwiga, these are not distinguished instruments. #Having seen many instrument marked "Marcelli" on EBay, I have now come around to Plami's view that Marcelli wasn't an instrument maker at all -- it was a maker of tailpieces. #Very many German luthiers didn't put any labels in their mandolins, and that leaves the brand name stamped on the tailpiece as the only identifiable logo. #Ebay sellers then describe it as "Marcelli mandolin".
> 
> Martin


[QUOTE]

Gosh i actually managed to upload my firts phot on the cafe!.. Well here is again and what you are seeing is are the backs of a typical Neapolitain bowlback and the much larger back (Flamed maple) of a "quality German Bowlback" from around the 1970,s/80's... I've followed that up with a few more photos of the german mandolin.

In general Martin is quite right, and most (not all) of the earlier German bowlbacks were not of very good quality (the one in the picture is of superb quality)and this is referred to by Sparks in the "Classical Mandolin".... but as early as the 50's the top German Builders stopped copying the "Italian Style" and began to produce fairly high quality larger instruments, like the one in the picture, which if you had it made for you today would cost around £800 to £1000. German builders #from around the 1950's like "Hums", "Stengel", "Guetter" and Hewiga but to mention a few produced orchestral and soloist mandolins which were, and to an extent still are in much demand.

Many, in fact most of these quality instruments were made in the "Vogtland" region of Saxony and most, like the one in my pics, did not have a makers label as everything was "state run" under the East german regime.

Many German Orchestras still use intruments like this and they have stood the test of time... and like the modern very high quality German Bowlbacks (Like Knorr) most players use Thomastic strings on the G,D,A, and Hannaback #on the E (this was a combination that came out "tops" in a long series of tests by many of germanys promintent players.

Hope this helps.....

Some more photos will follow if i can get to grips with how to do this!
Cheers Ian

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## trebleclef528

German and Italian mandolins front view

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## trebleclef528

German and Italian side view

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## trebleclef528

German - Front

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