# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  Mixed Feelings...

## Tom Coletti

Hello, everyone and all,

I've been on the Cafe forum for a while now, but I haven't made many posts on here because, well, I'm very hesitant to voice certain opinions at the risk of being bombarded by ad hominems and blatant ignorance from both sides. As much as I've seen a lot of great resources and great people, there's always this lingering discomfort every time I log in.

I have seen numerous threads like this one that have been closed due to trolling, bickering, and personal attacks, and I do not wish for this thread to end up like the others.

 If you have strong opinions one way or the other, then I am kindly asking for you to pass this thread by, as your views are unlikely to change in the wake of what I have to say. I'd like to keep the discussion here to those in the middle ground and specifically to the topic at hand, not bringing in other topics or points of concern as a means of derailing the thread.

Okay, here's the point...

I have mixed--very mixed--feelings about Bill Monroe's mandolin playing. Not the person, just his playing. I am not trolling, I do not intend to come off as a troll, and I do not wish to be labeled as a troll simply because my preferences may be starkly different to those of many on the forum.

On one hand, Southern Flavor is one of my favorite tunes to play. I play the lead very differently from Monroe's way of playing it, but the melody and chord progression of the B part are always where I can have a blast devising new melodic runs.

On the other, though, I just find most of his playing to be sort of "sloppy choppy," too thin, staccato, and, well, just messy for my own personal tastes. I could continue about how I also feel that his playing was somewhat limited in scope, but I digress. I don't want this to become a derailment where we just make petty comparisons.

Nor am I undermining his role in the kick-starting of a genre, but sometimes I feel like the legend oversteps the performance and people discredit other mandolinists because of the old "That is not how Bill would have done it" mentality.

(Warning: Tangential Analogy; I swear this is not a derailment, but firmly planted on the rails--literally--for the time being. It will hopefully make sense in the end.)

Richard Trevithick invented the steam locomotive in 1804, which was a huge technological advancement over horse-and-carriage, but others improved on the design: made it stronger, faster, more efficient, and by the time Lima Locomotive works was cranking out large Alleghenies and Northerns and Berkshires, the steam engine had evolved into something that nobody could have ever imagined or foreseen. The new engines weren't the same as the old ones, but by no means were they worse: They still had the same timeless, untamed elegance to them, the same breath of fire and soot that captivates the mind, but with better control of that incredible power. 

And then there's diesels. The fans of steam will fuss and complain of their lifelessness and too-pristine nature, but a locomotive is a locomotive. Diesels are different, yes, but still another evolution and improvement: even more efficiency and focus, with a sleek, stealthy swiftness, a fearsome subtlety to them, gliding effortlessly when a steam locomotive would require twice as much work and maintenance to keep up. They simply operate by different means, but they accomplish the same task as steam. You can argue that you prefer the earthy aesthetics of steam, but it would be neglectful to claim that a graceful, vividly-painted diesel can't be beautiful as well.

Nobody ever forgets the influence of Trevithick's 1804 engine, but when they compare the technical capabilities of the locomotives from a century or two centuries later, they admit that the new locomotives do provide service that Trevithick's engine could not match. They didn't claim "Trevithick's engine is the ONLY engine design that we will use because it was the first and most influential," when in fact, James Watt's steam technology from decades before laid the foundation for the application in transport, and Robert Stephenson's "Rocket" locomotive of 1829 is what most would consider the actual blueprint of the modern steam locomotive. 

Railroading would have stagnated, not evolved, and it would have been lost forever, a dead and decrepit technology that refused to adapt to the world around it. But they didn't completely disregard Trevithick's engine and never mention it again, though; a replica still runs so that those who can appreciate the earlier, unrefined, imperfect-yet-daring contraption can see it in action, standing as a testament to how far we've come since then.

I feel like that's my attitude towards Bill Monroe: a bit antiquated like Trevithick's engine, but someone that can be admired in context. I don't completely disregard him, but I evaluate pros and cons. I still respect him for being one of the early contributors in the long evolutionary process that created the music known as Bluegrass (along with those who came before him in Scottish/Irish/Appalachian/African traditional music and those who came after him), and I am partial to a few tunes, but I acknowledge that it wasn't a one-man accomplishment overnight and his ability left something to be desired; it was something that could be improved upon, a seed that needed to take root and grow, and others had since used a cleaner, more articulate tone and different musical perspectives to take Bluegrass mandolin to new heights and different branches of sound. 

Bluegrass is built on innovation and diversity, so let us not limit its scope or association. I am a fan of everything from Irish Reels to Punch Brothers and all in-between. I do have preferences, but I try not to belittle or over-compensate unfairly. Nobody is too small to be praised, and nobody is too big to be criticized, not even Bill. 

I have comfort zones, but I seek out something new and foreign to keep the experience fresh and exciting. Everyone has had an equal share in finding their wavelength in the broad spectrum of Bluegrass, and if you limit yourself to only a small range of light, then you may not see it shine.

Cheers,

--Tom

----------

Jim, 

Mike Crocker, 

Paul Brett

----------


## Ray Neuman

Well Tom.....congrats on your bravery! As I have often been tempted to post a comment, or opinion, but hesitated due to the tigers in the wings waiting to chew off a leg. 

I for one will agree with you, as I find little of the legends playing to be pleasing to me. BUT, as you said, his influence can not be disputed. My personal preference (and yes, my opinion must be held in the depth of regard and consideration that I have NOT influenced....well....anything!) for mandolin playing is substantially different. So, life is good, we are all different, and I am indeed "different". (I even use FENDER picks!!!!!!!)

----------


## dusty miller

Edit, Nevermind

----------


## Mike Bunting

You post is just fine to me, everyone has their tastes. And this from a severe Monroe fan! I really like the rough hewn sounds coming from the old guys, whether it's bluegrass, blues or country or whatever.

----------


## mrmando

:Popcorn: 
If you like your mandolin playing squeaky clean through state-of-the-art ribbon mics with compression, Bill Monroe is not your man. 

Where your argument goes off the rails, to use your own analogy, is that you chalk the way Monroe played up to a lack of ability. Pshaw. Monroe had his own style; either you like it or you don't; but to play the way he did requires a tremendous amount of ability. It's just as difficult to master as any other style. 

David Grisman and Andy Statman are two mandolinists who have indeed mastered Monroe-style mandolin, but choose to play primarily in other styles. I guess you should ask them whether Monroe style requires any less ability than the other things they do.

----------

almeriastrings, 

bigskygirl, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Jim, 

Jim Garber, 

Marty Henrickson, 

Mike Bunting, 

RKL, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

Wayne Stuvick

----------


## Tobin

Wow, um, that first post was borderline tl;dr.  But assuming I get the gist of it, I agree.  The Monroe legacy cannot be disputed.  And even though I find myself enjoying listening to his playing, it's often a little too sloppy-choppy for me too.  Of course, I fully realize and admit that I'm hearing it from an entirely different perspective than it was heard back then.  We have a lot of talented people who built on his legacy and took it to new levels, but it's not quite fair to compare the two.  His style and contribution to this genre of music was brilliant for what it was.

It's funny, though, that you bring this up at the same time I've been pondering a similar issue.  I think today's generation doesn't really understand music (I'm speaking of "the masses", not those of us who actually play music).  They are used to being spoon-fed music from the big recording industry which sanitizes everything and exaggerates it beyond realistic expectations.  The average person on the street may hear someone playing live music and think it sounds awful, because all he has to compare it to is what the industry is spoon-feeding him.

The truth is, even great players make mistakes and play a bit sloppy sometimes.  Bill Monroe's style was never intended to be a statement of perfection like you'd expect from a classical orchestra performer, or even a modern professional who was trained in mandolin playing from a young age.  Bill's journey into this music came from good old home-style picking where the heart and soul of the music was about so much more than just the execution.  It's really hard to put into words, but I hope you know what I mean.  We as pickers can always strive for perfection in our technique, or focus on the minutia of performing, but to do so may cause us to miss the entire point of playing.  Or, perhaps, it causes us to ignore the soul of the music.  

Bill's playing wasn't perfect by today's standards.  But boy, did it have soul.

----------

bigskygirl, 

Loretta Callahan, 

Mike Bunting, 

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## Jesse Harmon

Well I loved your Tangential Analogy!  I have to admit that growing up in the era that saw the diesel overtake the steam engine I had trouble thinking that diesel honk was an improvement over the "lonesome whistle" that came from the awesome beauty of the steam engine.  I can't say that the analogy quite works for me but I agree with what you seem to say about these "holy areas" of music that can't be discussed without rancor.

----------


## almeriastrings

Taste is a funny thing. We all have our preferences. They can often be at polar opposites. That's OK. Would be very boring if we all liked the same thing. I find Monroe's playing exiting, original and hugely creative yet steeped in history and tradition, and incredibly powerful. It touches the soul. It's REAL.  I can listen to his stuff for hours on end, and I'm always hearing something new there... not to highlight any specific artists but some you mention there, well... I have a hard time bothering to listen to their stuff more than once and usually turn it off after a few minutes. Leaves me stone cold. Touches absolutely nothing.

----------

bigskygirl, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Frank Farley, 

Marty Henrickson, 

Mike Bunting, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

shortymack, 

Wayne Stuvick, 

wildpikr

----------


## sgarrity

I'm certainly not in the middle of the road on this topic, so you probably don't want me to comment.  But..................Monroe's music is rooted deeply in the blues.  It is meant to be felt deep in your soul.  It stirs emotion.  It was not meant to dazzle people with technical brilliance.  He painted the melody with a broad brush.  Some people like the style, some people don't.  Variety is what makes the world go 'round.  But if you think Monroe-style playing and/or his music is limited in scope........I'd suggest you listen more and harder and then try to play some of it.  There is a lot of nuance in his playing that is extremely hard if not impossible to duplicate.  And his style of playing works in almost any genre of music.

----------

almeriastrings, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Mike Bunting, 

robert.najlis, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

shortymack

----------


## OldSausage

In a way, he was punk long before punk. Saying Bill wasn't that great with the mando is like saying Johnny Rotten was a lousy vocalist compared to Celine Dion - it sort of misses the point completely.

----------

Austin Bob, 

Bill Clements, 

Charley wild, 

doc holiday, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Gregory Tidwell, 

Jill McAuley, 

Jim Garber, 

Loretta Callahan, 

Michael H Geimer, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

shortymack, 

Stephen Porter

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Taste is a funny thing. We all have our preferences. They can often be at polar opposites. That's OK. Would be very boring if we all liked the same thing. I find Monroe's playing exiting, original and hugely creative yet steeped in history and tradition, and incredibly powerful. It touches the soul. It's REAL.  I can listen to his stuff for hours on end, and I'm always hearing something new there... not to highlight any specific artists but some you mention there, well... I have a hard time bothering to listen to their stuff more than once and usually turn it off after a few minutes. Leaves me stone cold. Touches absolutely nothing.


I really like how the "true" songs are exactly that, true and real. Letter from my Darlin' e.g. When Bess left him. You can tell from the song just how ripped he was about it.

----------

almeriastrings, 

shortymack

----------


## shortymack

Im not very educated on engines but one thing I know, light dont shine at night. If you dont like Monroes style thinking its too sloppy or whatever, thats fine. Theres no "you HAVE to love Bill or play his tunes to call yourself a BG'er" rule of thumb anywhere but one can not take away any of his accomplishments and/or genre creating influences. The man was a pioneer and deserves the accolades and as mentioned, his style is extremely hard to replicate. I personally think his raw style is great as well, not worrying about every note being played perfectly like many top players do today. It was more about the feel and vibe which is what transcended it into the ground breaking area IMO. OS hit in on the head, he was punk before there ever was punk. Music is so much more than a correctly fretted ringing note.

----------

almeriastrings, 

bigskygirl, 

Mike Bunting, 

stevedenver

----------


## Mike Bunting

Just to reiterate, in spite of all of us Monrovians (ites?) jumping in, no one is dissing you for having different tastes.

----------


## stevedenver

ill play,
and I agree with your feelings some here are .....testy...

And oh,  btw, I love trains !!
I also love the present, as rooted in the past, but NOT the past for it's own sake.  These are the goodall days!

I agree I think Bill was sloppy was just noticing this yesterday listening to Kentucky mandolin.

And, from my reading, bits and pieces, hearsay, tales from those who knew him, or worked with him, and other information, I also think, I might not have liked him as a person, (which is irrelevant to the music, but can still create a bias).  I also don't agree that he alone was solely responsible for the BG genre,  yet that seems to be something he has claimed.

What has enticed my love of mandolin, has been Grisman, Bush, Flinner, Thiele, Reischmann.  I think while I like bluegrass, I love expansion of the instrument's breadth.  In fact, I find I love the mandolin voice especially for jazz and gypsy, pop, and rock, although it seems as of late, mando is trendy or  'hip' like uke.  IMHO, we are in a second golden age of music and cross over and experimentation not seen since the sixties.

I put this to you, from my own history, sometimes one changes in taste.  I am not hardcore bluegrass, in fact, not at all.  
When I first learned to love blues, I needed something more 'evolved' before my ears were able to appreciate raw original forms.
I listen to a lot of BG, new and old, because I'm playing it in my band.  

Sloppy now, may later be found to be .....expressive later in your listening life.  Perish the comparison, but Jimmy Page is also sloppy, yet, so expressive, to me, over other more polished technicians. So is Son House.

I think, too, that there is a cultural, historical, traditional, sociological, (political ?) almost nostalgic aspect to  bluegrass as roots American music, that I currently, don't hold as a priority.  I think there is enough of this around to rightfully make you leery in commenting.  I have read some scathing posts on youtube about modern versions of bluegrass tunes simply because they are not imitative of the original.  Some hold things sacred, and seemingly have no ability to depart from what they believe is 'pure'.

----------

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## Frank Farley

When I first started picking about 30 years ago my Grandfather was a huge fan of Bill.He lived just a few minutes from Beanblossom,and wouldn't miss any of Bill's shows.When we would get together he would mention Bill's picking all the time and I just couldn't understand how anybody could be that crazy about his playing.I didn't fully appreciate how talented he was until I started trying to imitate his licks and tunes( still can't do it).I really like a lot of other pickers as well,but Bill is my personal favorite.

----------

Earl Gamage

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Over the years there have been several threads like this, you're not in uncharted territory.

----------

mrmando

----------


## mrmando

> Over the years there have been several threads like this, you're not in uncharted territory.


Which isn't to say it ain't dangerous.

----------

MikeEdgerton

----------


## Charles E.

I absolutly love Bills playing on the Bluebird recordings with brother Charlie. It was full of life. I never listened to much of his later stuff as I was more into Old Time and swing but you can't deny he was a pioneer in the country music world. When I heard recordings by Dave Apollon for the first time, I thought "how is this guy not more famous then Bill?"

----------


## little george

Well, that´s also one of the reasons I´m leaving away the banjo and spending my time with the mando. Mado players are much more gentle and tolerant. Go to banjo hangout, say something similar about Scrugss, and you´ll we crucified a hundred times in the first ten answers...

Anyway, it´s your mando, play as you like it  :Wink:

----------

MikeEdgerton

----------


## belbein

> It's funny, though, that you bring this up at the same time I've been pondering a similar issue.  I think today's generation doesn't really understand music (I'm speaking of "the masses", not those of us who actually play music).  They are used to being spoon-fed music from the big recording industry which sanitizes everything and exaggerates it beyond realistic expectations.  The average person on the street may hear someone playing live music and think it sounds awful, because all he has to compare it to is what the industry is spoon-feeding him.
> 
> The truth is, even great players make mistakes and play a bit sloppy sometimes.


About a year ago I posted a very similar thought.  Needless to say, I agree with you.  However, as I recall, the assembled Café dwellers disagreed, vociferously.  

To the OP:  your opinion isn't right or wrong.  It's an artistic vision.  Go with it.  (And by the way, I too hate "That's not the way X did it."  I don't care what X did, unless I want to play just like X, which I don't [uh, ok, "can't"].)

----------

stevedenver

----------


## Tom Coletti

"I'd suggest you listen more and harder and then try to play some of it."

Sheesh, Shaun, I'll admit that I'm a pretty godawful player myself, but there's no need to go there. It's not that I haven't listened hard enough; I've sampled many tracks over the last four years... some I like, some I don't, as I've already said. I've already mentioned that I can appreciate him. I'm not obligated to appreciate him more, just as you're not obligated to appreciate him less.

What irks me more is all this talk of "real" and "soul" and "true." There is no "fake" or "false" music, for starts. That's incredibly snobbish to claim that any sub-genre of music that you don't like is somehow illegitimate. I never, ever, ever, said that Bill Monroe's playing wasn't "music" or that he wasn't a "musician." I may not prefer it over others, but it is still music. EVERYTHING is music, or NOTHING is. And "soul?" Chris Thile, Sam Bush, Bill Monroe, Mike Marshall, etc., ALL play with soul. They're passionate about the music that they make, therefore they all play with soul. They all play REAL music. Their music is all TRUE.

Please don't label "technical ability" as a "lack of soul," because that's not what this thread should be arguing and it can't be farther from the truth.

And another thing: being raised in hardship and being kinda bummed out about stuff doesn't make you a good musician. Playing music that people can appreciate makes you a good musician.

--Tom

----------

stevedenver

----------


## OldSausage

So, what SHOULD this thread be arguing about, because I'm just not getting it.

----------

allenhopkins, 

almeriastrings, 

Bill Baldridge, 

bruce.b, 

Charley wild, 

dusty miller, 

jesserules, 

Jill McAuley, 

Michael Bridges, 

Mike Bunting, 

palosfv3, 

sgarrity

----------


## stevedenver

Tom
I read Shaun's post not as "you try it"
in your face, 

but rather, 
by trying it, as a player, 
one might be more aware of technical subtleties in BMs playing, which to me is indeed relevant, not as to sloppiness, but as to something to be aware of via playing and attempting to imitate the style.

I think this is a great observation.  By trying to play covers like Gilmour, or Page, Wes Montgomery, etc., on guitar, it is a huge tool to improve ones ear and chops.

It emphasizes attention to detail sometimes I only 'get' after I try to sound just the same.  It doesn't change my opinion or lack of opinion for the sound/,music, but only that I might understand it more deeply in some aspect.

Fer 'zample, if I want to try to sound a bit more BMish-i pick harder and closer to the bridge for that percussive attack plink cut sound, pick perpendicular to the strings.  So, I think this is one more aspect of analyzing the music, and I think that was the point Shaun was trying to make.

None of this, btw, is meant as a challenge or defense of any thing or to anyone, or to offend .

----------


## AlanN

We learn from our forebears

----------

Loretta Callahan, 

Marty Henrickson, 

Perry Babasin, 

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## DataNick

> "I'd suggest you listen more and harder and then try to play some of it."
> 
> Sheesh, Shaun, I'll admit that I'm a pretty godawful player myself, but there's no need to go there. It's not that I haven't listened hard enough; I've sampled many tracks over the last four years... some I like, some I don't, as I've already said. I've already mentioned that I can appreciate him. I'm not obligated to appreciate him more, just as you're not obligated to appreciate him less.
> 
> What irks me more is all this talk of "real" and "soul" and "true." There is no "fake" or "false" music, for starts. That's incredibly snobbish to claim that any sub-genre of music that you don't like is somehow illegitimate. I never, ever, ever, said that Bill Monroe's playing wasn't "music" or that he wasn't a "musician." I may not prefer it over others, but it is still music. EVERYTHING is music, or NOTHING is. And "soul?" Chris Thile, Sam Bush, Bill Monroe, Mike Marshall, etc., ALL play with soul. They're passionate about the music that they make, therefore they all play with soul. They all play REAL music. Their music is all TRUE.
> 
> Please don't label "technical ability" as a "lack of soul," because that's not what this thread should be arguing and it can't be farther from the truth.
> 
> And another thing: being raised in hardship and being kinda bummed out about stuff doesn't make you a good musician. Playing music that people can appreciate makes you a good musician.
> ...


Tom,

When I was "older then, I'm younger than that now"; I used to feel somewhat like you that Mr. Monroe's playing was somewhat choppy. Then I started listening/watching YouTube videos from different time eras and I have realized (in my opinion) that the man was as clean as he wanted to be; and he could play extemely "clean" if he wanted to. Also it appears that later in life his playing focused more on selective notes in melodies versus the whole melody. When Bill Monroe played a fiddle tune for example on the mandolin, he didn't play a note for note sheet music rendering; he played more for a particular style/feeling. 

I'm inserting a couple of examples: the beginning to "Roanoke" is as fast and "clean" as I'd want to hear/be.




Kentucky Mandolin shows some real  top notch playing as well.




No problem with having your own opinion, that's what makes life interesting. 

The more of Bill Monroe's playing I hear, the more I appreciate it; and I would say that perhaps he wasn't a Dave Apollon technician in ability, but that's not what he was after either.

Keep communicating Bro!

----------

Earl Gamage, 

Jim, 

Jim Garber, 

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## Mike Bunting

That kickoff on Roanoke just slays me. Bill's rhythmic sense and his powerful right hand are amazing. Those vids are from at time when he was at his physical best. I love the instrumentals he wrote in the later years of his career as his physical skills began to wane. These tunes had a great musical sense to them and it didn't sound as if they were just vehicles to show off technical skills.

----------

almeriastrings, 

Jim

----------


## Shelagh Moore

Hi Tom,

I certainly appreciate Bill Monroe's massive contribution to music but like one or two others, his particular style of playing and that of one or two other much admired mandolin notables isn't especially to my personal taste. But, there again, I'm not a bluegrass player like many others here so tend to listen more to other players anyway.

----------


## DataNick

> That kickoff on Roanoke just slays me...


Mike,

I'm still tryin' to figure that deal out; yeah, just blows me away!

And he plays it in such an off-hand way; you know the dude had serious mando-game!

----------

Mike Bunting

----------


## allenhopkins

I'm going to take a step back from critiquing Monroe's music, and/or OP's take on it --

There are probably as many people on the Cafe who, while recognizing Monroe's importance in the "mandolin universe," find his playing not particularly to their taste, as there are Monroe-o-philes.  Realize that we have classical players, Irish/Celtic players, old-timey players, players from a variety of ethnic and national backgrounds -- and to them Bill Monroe and bluegrass mandolin aren't central concerns.

Second, _de gustibus non disputandum est._  What you like, what I like, what anyone else _likes,_ is a matter of personal preference.  Playing style, repertoire, mandolin sound, color of case lining, it's personal preference.  You think some of Monroe's playing is crude, over-aggressive, sloppy; others find it "real," vital, exciting.  So?

What motivates me to post at all, is someone starting out by saying, "I'm going to say something with which I know others won't agree, but so many of you have been rude, with 'trolling, bickering, and personal attacks,' that I need to preclude that by asking you to withhold your 'strong opinions.'"  That's really not needed.  This site is basically well-mannered, accepting, and supportive, by anyone's standards.  The number of threads that get locked down for intemperate language is minuscule as compared to other types of forums (fora?).  The responses you've received reveal a lively discussion, with differing points of view, which is very much the norm.

The only way to avoid even the slim possibility of being vigorously opposed -- whether you call that "bickering and personal attacks" or not -- is to never say anything with which another Cafe-er would disagree.  No one wants that.  Most of us stay well within the boundaries almost all the time.  One of the reasons this is a useful place for mandolin lovers to gather.

----------

Bill Baldridge, 

Bill Clements, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Jill McAuley, 

palosfv3, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

Steve-o

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> Which isn't to say it ain't dangerous.


Well yeah, the last three folks that posted this disappeared and ain't been seen since but that ain't no part of nuthin' if you get my drift.

----------

belbein

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Mike,
> 
> I'm still tryin' to figure that deal out; yeah, just blows me away!
> 
> And he plays it in such an off-hand way; you know the dude had serious mando-game!


A lot of panache.

----------

DataNick

----------


## jaycat

Point of curiousity: did Monroe really "invent" bluegrass music? Were there no precursors to the genre?

----------


## belbein

> Point of curiousity: did Monroe really "invent" bluegrass music? Were there no precursors to the genre?


I'm not a musicologist, but my understanding is this:  Monroe and the Bluegrass Mountain Boys invented the specific sound they played, and therefore in a very narrow sense, they invented "bluegrass."  But the basic music they were playing is variously known as Old Time, or String Band, or Scots-Irish, or Appalachian folk, or American roots, or maybe as all of them in various combinations.  Now all of this stuff is classified by the ignorati and even by knowledgeable people as "bluegrass" because people know what you're talking about when you say it (like "classical music" is inaccurate, but it transmits a specific meaning and is therefore inaccurately used by nearly everyone).  But anyway, to answer your question, in cultural things, there are _always_ precursors.

----------

stevedenver

----------


## sgarrity

Tom, I have to disagree.  There is plenty of fake, soulless music out there.  Just turn on your radio.  As an amateur musician I'm much more critical of music than the general public.  And I think there's plenty of junk music out there, a lot of which people are getting insanely wealthy on!  Who would you rather hear play The Thrill Is Gone......BB King or Yngwie Malmsteen?  I'd pick BB every time!  

Stevedenver got my point about playing it.  Trying to learn some of it yourself will help show you the music's depth and intricacies.  Some of it is quite mysterious and won't reveal itself for some time.  For the last 8 years a group of 50 Monroe-heads gathers in Owensboro, KY for a weekend of in-depth study of The Mon's music.  This year will be my 4th and I feel I'm barely scratching the surface.  You have to keep in mind that Monroe had a LONG career.  His music, tone, and ability changed over the years.  He turned 70 y/o in 1981!  But was still writing tunes and performing pretty much until the end.  I'm glad that clip of Roanoke got posted.  He was 44 y/o in that clip.  If that's not clean and fast, I don't know what is.  And that Kentucky Mandolin video.......is that not excellent bluegrass mandolin playing?  That's what I mean by listen harder.  Monroe could play any way he wanted to play.  He was a notorious control freak over "his music."  What you hear is exactly how he wanted you to hear it, with the obvious exception of declining ability when he got up there in years.  So that's why I take exception when people call his playing sloppy and limited in scope.  We all have limitations, just like Monroe did.  And that's what helps define our own personal playing style.  

Now think of all the tunes he wrote.......from the relatively easy Bluegrass Stomp to the very deep, ethereal My Last Days On Earth.  The bluegrass standards like Wheel Hoss, The Gold Rush, Lonesome Moonlight Waltz, Old Dangerfield, Jerusalem Ridge, Kentucky Waltz, and on and on and on.........

I'm a mandolin nut.  I pretty much like it all.  Burns, Bush, Lawson, Thile, Steffey, Compton, Gorman, White, Stecher, O'Brien, McCoury, Fibish, Stiernberg, Rachell, Young, Del Grosso, Skaggs, Sizemore........you get the idea.  I was listening to Yank on the way home today.  Some of it I like more than others.  Some of it has more soul to me than others.  Some of it is too "slick" at times, focused on technical prowess over serving the song/tune.  Thile for example.  (Fasten your seat belts folks......)  Some of his stuff is purely about showing off his technical superiority.  Some of it is amazingly musical and full of soul and passion.  I go to see him any time he's within a two hour drive.  Listen to the Thile/Daves recording and tell me you don't hear some of Monroe's style/influence.  Mike Compton is arguably the leading practitioner of Monroe-style mandolin but has taken what Monroe did, added IMHO better technical ability and a healthy dose of the blues to carve out his own style.  Ronnie McCoury's style is firmly rooted in Mon's playing with a modern Dawg-esque flair that keeps it fresh and interesting.  You don't have to love him.  But many, if not most, bluegrass mandolin players start with Monroe and then adapt his style or use it as a springboard to find their own voice.   :Mandosmiley: 

I'll leave you with this video which illustrates how his style of chord-based playing can be used in almost any style of music.  Music starts about 1:50 in:

----------

Loretta Callahan, 

Perry Babasin, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

stevedenver

----------


## Mike Bunting

Dead on, Shaun.

----------


## David Lewis

It seems to me that most people in this discussion, if not all, are happy to agree to disagree. There's one undoubtedly great player who I don't enjoy listening to. I won't say who... I just don't "get" him. I may listen and it could "click", so I'll not say who. But that's ok. Bluegrass itself can be a difficult genre to 'get'. I enjoy playing orange blossom special to students who are steeped in more contemporary genres. Once they get it, they love it. But some just never do. And that's ok. Music speaks to us. Or it doesn't. And you should never be scared of voicing an honest, thoughtful opinion. (I love monroe, btw)

----------

Paul Brett

----------


## foldedpath

That photo of young Thile and Monroe is priceless! 

I'm not a Bluegrass player, so I'm barely qualified to comment, except in a sense of the "big picture" about traditional music. So here goes. 

Fire up 'yer blowtorches!

Before I picked up mandolin, I spent many years playing Blues guitar, both acoustic under the influence of Rev. Gary Davis and his fans (Kaukonen, etc.) and then later the electric Chicago style from all those guys who moved up north from the Delta. I think I have every vinyl LP that Freddie King recorded in a box somewhere. That was my personal Rosetta stone for decoding how to play Blues, but it was already in the later generation from the sources.

I've never been able to get into Robert Johnson, or the other very raw, early Delta Blues stuff before it all went electric. I can appreciate where it came from, but it's just hard to listen to (for me). Trying to emulate that sound, would be some kind of historical recreation project. Many musicians have gone down that path, and I respect what they're doing. I'm just not into that side of the Blues. I'm more of a Robben Ford fan when it comes to electric blues guitar, and I know that's way outside the pale, for hardcore Blues guys.

Bringing it back to Bluegrass... for me, Monroe is the Bluegrass version of Robert Johnson for Blues players. You either get it, or you don't. 

Personally, I don't enjoy hearing Monroe's staccato, machine gun picking style on the fast tunes, or contemporary players who mimic that style. Because I'm into Irish and Scottish music these days, I like fast playing with as much expression as you can cram into the notes as they fly past. 

I think that's where players like Grisman, Marshall, and Thile (and many others!) have opened some doors, with their style of playing. It's not just a fast flurry of notes, it's notes with expression. If I was a Bluegrass player I think I'd lean to the modern side, but I can see where the influences are in that music, and I can respect it, like I respect Robert Johnson's place in the history of Blues guitar.

----------

George R. Lane, 

Jim Adwell, 

Loretta Callahan, 

Perry Babasin, 

stevedenver, 

Tom Coletti

----------


## Mike Bunting

Why would we fire up our blowtorches?

----------


## foldedpath

> Why would we fire up our blowtorches?


I guess I should save that phrase for something _really_ controversial... like "Monroe sucks!" or something. But let's see what the reaction is to the "machine gun" phrase...
 :Wink:

----------


## Mike Bunting

Sounds like you are trolling. I'll pass.

----------


## sgarrity

I don't think "machine gun style" is all that incendiary!    :Laughing:

----------


## Austin Bob

I understand the OP's point of view, but I don't particularly agree with it. 

I feel the same way about some very revered early blues players that shall remain nameless. I get that they were pioneers, but I've never been impressed with their playing.

----------


## foldedpath

> Sounds like you are trolling. I'll pass.


Not trolling, if it wasn't clear from the original post. I don't troll here, just expressing an honest opinion.

Edit to add, this is what I mean:



For me, that's the "Robert Johnson Blues" side of BM. Can't relate to it, personally, with almost no dynamics and timing that could be charitably described as "loose." But it's real, and it's authentic, and it's great for what it is. 

I still play some of his tunes, like Lonesome Moonlight Waltz, because they're great tunes, and I honor his place in the music. Even if I don't want to pick like that.
 :Wink:

----------

stevedenver

----------


## almeriastrings

> What irks me more is all this talk of "real" and "soul" and "true." There is no "fake" or "false" music, for starts.


We obviously live on different planets. 

Spice Girls, anyone? Justin Bieber?

----------

FLATROCK HILL, 

Jill McAuley, 

Loretta Callahan

----------


## sgarrity

This video says a lot IMHO.  He was probably in his mid-70s here.  This is how you play Southern Flavor as far as I'm concerned.  You also get to see the stubborn, entertaining side of his "I'll Show You" personality.

----------

almeriastrings, 

DataNick, 

Loretta Callahan, 

Mike Bunting, 

Rush Burkhardt

----------


## David Lewis

> We obviously live on different planets.
> 
> Spice Girls, anyone? Justin Bieber?


That's not music... :razz:

----------


## Tom Coletti

> This is how you play Southern Flavor as far as I'm concerned.


No. Having already explained my opinion on Southern Flavor's untapped potential, any "this is how Bill and everyone else should do it" statement doesn't fly with me. For the record, this is the first Monroe clip that I ever saw way back in high school. I loved it immediately, but I knew that there were other ways to play it, and so I started learning to play the mandolin.




> We obviously live on different planets. 
> 
> Spice Girls, anyone? Justin Bieber?


Bieb's content may be music designed primarily for marketing and sales, and yes, it has very irritating, generic, and unpleasant qualities to those who study music, but as much as you and I hate it, it is still "real music." If he released an album with twelve tracks of absolute silence for purchase on iTunes, then that might constitute "fake music." It would probably sound better than his previous albums put together, but still. I hate Justin Bieber as much as the next guy, but I don't claim that he doesn't make music or that he isn't a musician. He's a godawful musician by my musical standards, but a musician nonetheless.

And Justin Bieber is normally the scapegoat for people who have very little experience in the modern Pop scene. I can assure you that Justin Bieber isn't even in the top ten of the worst Pop artists out there now. (Chris Brown, Nicki Minaj, etc. will surprise you with their awfulness) And while there is plenty of unpleasant "electronic" music, there are plenty of good examples. 


But getting back on track with the general thread, I agree with foldedpath regarding the Bill Monroe/Robert Johnson comparison. For me, that version of Kentucky Mandolin wasn't too bad (much better than the previous version that I found, and i especially like the banjo in this one) but the Rawhide kickoff was too fast and the note fidelity suffered. It's one thing to play so quickly that the notes are a crazy blur, but it's too blurred to make sense in this case. Other players are guilty of that, too. Heck, most of them are. I get it that bluegrass is known for its speed, but come on. Sometimes I wish that the entire genre can slow down just a tad so that we can actually have the time to savor every note.

=====

As for this whole "unnamed player" or "a certain group" or a "person that we won't mention," nobody's being cute or fooling anybody. We're clearly talking about Chris Thile & Punch Brothers and people love to completely shoot them down. "They're not bluegrass" is something that I see all the time. They themselves never claimed that they were in the first place. Bill Monroe took old-time instruments and made a specific bluegrass sound. Nobody said "that ain't how the Carter Family did it." Punch Brothers took what we'd now consider bluegrass instruments and made their own sound too, which, as much as many of you may hate it, appeals to different people and opens up new audiences and genres to bluegrass instrumentation. 

And Punch Brothers are doing us a favor. Would you rather that young people listened to Nicki Minaj or Punch Brothers or--I can't believe I'm saying this--even Mumford & Sons? At least the general public is more likely to dive deeper and discover what you call "real" bluegrass through one of the latter two. With M&S it may take longer for "mainstream" kiddos to find bluegrass, but Jerry Douglas played on their last album, and once they find Jerry, they'll find AKUS and Sam Bush and Bela Fleck and then they're in.

I'll admit that I had a very difficult time appreciating PB & Chris several years ago, since most of it flew over my head and wasn't the sound that I had expected. Bill Monroe was the only mandolinist that I knew about for months. Now having been exposed to lots of bluegrass and becoming somewhat tired of the sound that I had expected, Chris Thile & Punch Brothers are a refreshing retreat for me, and their covers are really where they excel. I'm just frustrated by the ignorance that surrounds them. I was open to Bill Monroe over an extended period with some success, but it seems like people shoot down PB & Chris almost immediately without getting the full picture, then refuse to come back and try something new. Barriers are put up. Purist mentality kicks in. Things stagnate. Thanks to those who posted the videos earlier in this thread which led me to the version of KM that I wasn't aware of. Now I'd like to return the favor to try to break down some other walls.

For those who believe that Chris Thile is a show-off with only technical ability and no soul, this tune that he wrote may prove that he has both:



For those who believe that Punch Brothers don't have any classic "drive" or bounce or whatever, here's this one:



Just keep an open mind and give them a shot. You may be surprised.

--Tom

----------

Jesse Harmon, 

stevedenver

----------


## Mike Bunting

What are you talking about, nobody is knocking Chris. I had no idea to whom that poster was referring. I thought we were allowing people like what they wanted, now you are telling me I should like CT. I don't need you to do that, I was listening to Chris long before you discovered him, I have his first record. You seem to have the notion that the people here who are describing why they like Monroe, don't like anything else. Wrong.

----------

jesserules

----------


## Ron McMillan

Put me down as one who thinks Chris Thile has no equal, past or present. The first 19 seconds of Thile intro to 'I get a kick out of you' on Dolly Parton's 'Little Sparrow' album represents to me the material of months of study and endless respect. It's blindingly fast, but not in the least machine-gun like. Slow it down to about 60% speed and you hear flawless syncopation and immaculate, varied timing that is so subtle you don't know it's there when you hear it at full speed.  

On the original topic, I am not much of a bluegrass fan, so I don't go out of my way to listen to Bill Monroe. Modern bluegrass seems to me to be too obsessed with playing the most notes in the shortest period of time, music that is largely absent of subtlety. YouTube clips of jam sessions at bluegrass events are (to me) a big y-a-w-n for that reason. In the history of traditionally-derived music, Bill Monroe earned and deserves huge respect, and it is almost inevitable that for some people this involves his elevation to near-deity status. To me that's unnecessary, but understandable. It's not to my personal taste, but that's only important to me.

ron

----------

stevedenver

----------


## almeriastrings

I must say, you seem very keen on insisting that other people have to like what *you* like and agree with your point of view on music generally. You don't like Monroe - fine by me! No problem at all with that, but please, don't try and tell me what *I* should like and why your view of things is somehow superior. It isn't. It's merely that our tastes diverge completely. I did (carefully) watch both the clips you posted, and while I do think Chris Thile is an incredibly talented musician - I still did not like either of them. I won't go into why (though I could, at length) it is enough to say "sorry - just does not do a thing for me".

What Mike says is true. Many of us DO like other things as well. I hugely admire the late Jethro Burns, for example. Inventive, technically outstanding and always musical and listenable. I can't PLAY like him, but I can certainly enjoy and appreciate what he did. Likewise, David Grisman... so, we are not "closed minded" - some of us just have very different preferences. Coffee black or white? Tea with sugar or not? Neither is inherently superior. Totally down to personal taste. On guitar, I tend to prefer Dan Crary over Tony Rice - I would never try to argue one was "better" or "worse" than the other, however.

----------

DataNick, 

Frank Farley, 

jesserules, 

Mike Bunting

----------


## sgarrity

Since Monoe wrote Southern Flavor I reckon he ought to know how to play it. There are certainly other ways it could be interpreted. You seem to read a lot into people's posts that isn't really there. 

Care to give us some background on yourself?  FYI.....this is all just spirited conversation about the passion that brought us together...mandolins and the music we play on them.

----------


## mandolirius

I'm with Old Sausage. I don't the point in all of this. You either like him or you don't. It doesn't seem that many people occupy a middle ground when it comes to Monroe. I love him but I don't care if others don't. It's not something anyone has to justify or apologize for.

----------

almeriastrings, 

Bob Clark, 

dusty miller, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

jesserules, 

Mike Bunting, 

sgarrity

----------


## DataNick

Tom,

Thanks for the video posts...This one point I must make however. You conclude that CT & Punch Brothers are a flavor of bluegrass that does indeed have soul. I will not dispute the character of "soul" or "drive" in their music, but why do we consistently mix musical genres with instrumentation? It is the style and character of the music that defines it's genre, not the instrumentation. Have you ever heard Bela Fleck's wife, Ms. Washburn play banjo with clearly "asian" style music. Well because she's playing a banjo, and there's a violin or maybe a mandolin included does it make her music bluegrass? Absolutely not. That Chris Thile cut you posted was great, but it is not bluegrass. If I changed the instrumentation to electric guitar vs acoustic guitar, electric bass, electric violin (a-la Jean Luc Ponty), and electric mandolin, it would be more clearly identifiable for what it is: progressive/soft jazz. CT & the PB play Progressive music, and that's OK. Would you call YES a rock n roll band? No they were a progressive rock band: multiple complex chord changes, changing melody structure, variant rhythmns; all within the context of one song. CT & PB are very similiar to YES, ELP, Kansas, etc; only acoustic vs electric with a flavoring of banjo.

I don't believe that anyone here is down on them or what they do; but it's not bluegrass, and I don't make the leap that listening to them will magicallly draw someone to bluegrass either. Also who cares if people are or are not "drawn" to bluegrass? Why is it that if I properly categorize a tomato as a fruit, that I'm a "hater" of vegetables. CT & The PB properly categorized are Progressive Music with clearly heavy jazz/classical/avant garde leanings. They kind of remind me of a somewhat acoustical version of Weather Report, who I used to listen to a lot back in the day! This doesn't mean that I don't like them, I do like them, but I would never think of categorizing them as a bluegrass band.

Regarding your comment that the kickoff on Roanoke (not Rawhide) was too fast and the note fidelity suffered, ever listen to "Friday Night in San Francisco" that features John McLaughlin, Al DiMeola, and Paco DeLucia? I hear the same kind of speed and "blurriness" throughout that record, and I can't recall any critic having a problem with it!

I for one certainly don't have any kind of purists mentality. Is the Academy of Recording Sciences a "purist" outfit because they award grammys in categories? No, we classify all types of things in our society and it doesn't mean that I'm against blouses if I correctly categorize them as female and not male clothing. As Shaun stated earlier, I like all kinds of mandolin players, yet I would not describe Andra Faye's playing as "sloppy" because her style isn't like Grisman. As a blues mandolinist, her style is different, that's all!

----------

Frank Farley, 

Mike Bunting

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Put me down as one who thinks Chris Thile has no equal, past or present. The first 19 seconds of Thile intro to 'I get a kick out of you' on Dolly Parton's 'Little Sparrow' album represents to me the material of months of study and endless respect. It's blindingly fast, but not in the least machine-gun like. Slow it down to about 60% speed and you hear flawless syncopation and immaculate, varied timing that is so subtle you don't know it's there when you hear it at full speed.  
> 
> On the original topic, I am not much of a bluegrass fan, so I don't go out of my way to listen to Bill Monroe. Modern bluegrass seems to me to be too obsessed with playing the most notes in the shortest period of time, music that is largely absent of subtlety. YouTube clips of jam sessions at bluegrass events are (to me) a big y-a-w-n for that reason. In the history of traditionally-derived music, Bill Monroe earned and deserves huge respect, and it is almost inevitable that for some people this involves his elevation to near-deity status. To me that's unnecessary, but understandable. It's not to my personal taste, but that's only important to me.
> 
> ron


That sounds fine to me. I think that I may agree with you regarding modern bluegrass too.

----------


## John MacPhee

I got a real problem!!! I was always taught at school that Watt invented the steam train, WHAT, thats right WATT invented the steam train.
Just sayin'
Cheers
John

----------


## Mike Bunting

> I got a real problem!!! I was always taught at school that Watt invented the steam train, WHAT, thats right WATT invented the steam train.
> Just sayin'
> Cheers
> John


But who's on first.

----------


## Griff

"Different strokes for different folks," is how the old saying goes. ... Wish I could play as sloppy as Mr. Monroe.

----------

DataNick, 

Loretta Callahan

----------


## Johnno

You are right Mike hehehe.
Cheers
Johnno

----------


## Eric Michael Pfeiffer

> This video says a lot IMHO.  He was probably in his mid-70s here.  This is how you play Southern Flavor as far as I'm concerned.  You also get to see the stubborn, entertaining side of his "I'll Show You" personality.


My family is from central and western Kentucky and we go back to this area many generations...very early 1800s. My grandfather was from Hancock county Kentucky born on the old homeplace, only 1 mile from the Ohio county line which is where Bill was from. My granny and her side were all from Ohio county near Fordsville.
My grandfather had the same accent (western Ky) and personality and ways that Bill Monroe had and much of what you see and hear from Bill Monroe is cultural. I knew many ole Ky men from that area who were like him, aloof, hard working, terse...it's really very cultural alot of what you see in Bill Monroe...he is a true old time western Kentuckian......sometimes I see and hear so much of my own grandad or "popaw" as we called him when I her Bill speak that I get emotional. Heck my grandd was even a foxhinter just like Bill showed in the documentary....I used to do that with my popaw. thats why I like Bill and his music soo much...its a very nostalgic thing

----------

almeriastrings, 

f5joe

----------


## Michael H Geimer

Mandolineer,
After reading your second post, I've edited this post down to nothing. Good morning all!

----------


## David Lewis

Mandolineer: just for the record, I think thile is a truly awesome player, and I've studied his stuff with great pleasure and interest. Te player I was talking about is a venerable and revered player.... My only issue is I don't 'get him'. I'll listen again, now I'm better on mandolin, and I just might get it.

----------


## Randy Smith

> We learn from our forebears



**Yes.**  

Or as T.S. Eliot wrote (I don't have the quote exactly), "People say we know so much more than those of the past.  Precisely. They are what we know."  Would Bush, Marshall, and all the others mentioned play the way they do without Monroe having played?  (Would they play mandolin at all?)  Monroe doesn't play as cleanly as Thile plays?  No argument from me.  But he's learned from musicians who played before him.  Others will learn from him.

----------


## Pete Jenner

> I got a real problem!!! I was always taught at school that Watt invented the steam train, WHAT, thats right WATT invented the steam train.
> Just sayin'
> Cheers
> John


Don't be silly John, everyone knows Bill Monroe invented the steam train.

Train-spotters unite! How about them Shays?  :Wink:

----------


## AlanN

Too funny.

In a MWN interview with Bill, he said "...just note, note, note - covering up one note with another, that ain't no part of nuthin'..."

or some such thing.

And he was open enough to realize other styles of play. Grisman asked him in the same interview if there were any mandolin pickers he admired. He mentioned Jesse McReynolds. Crosspicking was not part of the Bill Monroe thing, at all.

----------

Mike Bunting, 

OldSausage

----------


## Alex Orr

Monroe is my favorite mandolin player, and I would absolutely love to be able to master his style, so I guess I do have some bias  :Smile: 

Also, just to get it out the way, Monroe was a brilliant visionary who basically created a thoroughly unique language for a musical instrument, and as such, created a whole genre of music.  Not exactly musical kid's play.

As far as his style of playing...well...it actually varied quite a lot.  However, in comparison to a lot of the guys around today who play super-clean with a ton of notes, well, yeah, Monroe's style was different, but oh how I prefer it to guy's like Thile.  A lot of Monroe's playing reminds me of my favorite rock guitar stuff.  I love messy, noisy, feedback drenched stuff.  Hendrix, Sonic Youth, Dinosaur Jr., and countless punk bands.  Monroe reminds me a lot of that stuff because of how chaotic he often sounds, and how aggressive.  The thing is though (and Mike Compton has said this many times) there is an immense amount of technical stuff and brilliant, controlled musicianship at play in what often seems chaotic or "sloppy" in his playing.  In some sense, it's like someone listening to Ornette Coleman or late period Coltrane (which I also love) and saying those guys must not be very talented or technically competent sax players because they never seem to be playing a clean melody.  Sometimes one's idea of what constitutes "good" playing can be misled by what you find pleasant and enjoyable.

I find Bill's playing infinitely exciting, original, soulful and full of moments of dynamic unexpected surprises.  I also love how rooted it is in the blues.  I don't hear those things as much at all in the new breed of flashy, super-clean hyper fast Thile-esque pickers.  I don't see Bill's playing as some sort of backwards technology that was good enough at the time but we have now surpassed.  I think that is a bad analogy for any type of music.  However, as someone else has pointed out, many people on these boards have pointed out that they don't much care for Bill's style, and that's just fine.  Each to their own as far as what one finds pleasant and enjoyable to hear.  Lord knows I've received some ugly reprimands when I've said that I really don't like Chris Thile's music or his playing very much  :Frown: 

Oh, and a couple of other thoughts.  Recording technology was not as good as it is now, and I wonder if to some degree, it might have negatively impacted some of Monroe's recordings.  He was (according to one bio) not a fan of studios, and often felt that as long as the song was _good enough_ on first take then the record label could handle the rest of it.  Compare that to today's world where guys spend weeks in a studio with the best quality equipment and professional engineers, reworking, re-mixing, and re-recording parts to have then spit-polished to audio perfection.  Also, a lot of Monroe's stuff was recorded later in his life and I do think he got a little sloppier (in a bad way) later in his career.  There are instances I've seen where he was simply trying to play too fast, trying to do things he may have been able to do when younger but which his hands seemed incapable of in his seventies.  I believe he made some stylistic changes in response to that which "dumbed down" his playing a bit, often playing simpler and less dynamic breaks than he may have in his younger days.  Just some thoughts...

Overall though, don't worry if you don't care for his sound, it's your own preference, no need to apologize.

----------

almeriastrings, 

DataNick, 

Loretta Callahan, 

Mike Bunting, 

sgarrity

----------


## Michael H Geimer

> I'm with Old Sausage. I don't the point in all of this.


The only point I can find (and it _is_ a valid one IMO) is that the OP is 'talking aloud' about developing a personal style, having a conversation about what 'works' and what 'doesn't work'. The train engine analogy is a clue to the OP's perspective, where innovation of the past advances music as a whole, step by step, onwards and upwards. In that sense CT is more advanced than BM.

Another perspective is one where music exists as a field (non-linear). In this analogy BM is camped somewhere over there, CT is camped in another spot but everyone is sitting on the same fertile earth, around the same fire that has brought music out in us humans for many years. Both BM and CT needed to cultivate musical knowledge from the past to grow a style of their own. Neither is more advanced than the other; they did the same thing differently.

I can think of no specific technique that was created by either CT or BM that can be truly equated to the types of technological advancements that propelled* engine technology. Am I overlooking some obvious thing?

*pun alert

----------

Paul Brett

----------


## JeffD

While I have many mandolinners that I love, many musical heros, I do not worship any one player.

And I can appreciate great musicians even when their music doesn't speak to me. (I like a lot of the grundge era rock, but I am not that angry or disconnected or abandoned.) 

I have a way of evaluating great musicians, regardless of whether I like the music or not. And that is a simple question. _Are they able to execute what they intend?_ That's it.

So I look at Monroe, and I am in awe. What you may call sloppy-choppy to me is that he put the emphasis elsewhere. He achieved the effect he intended, amazingly powerfully. 

Same with Chris Thile. Some of his music I love as the best thing I have ever heard, and some of it I cannot connect with. OK. But He certainly achieves what he set out to do. 

To me, measuring a musician against his intentions (as far as I am able to perceive them, of course) seems to enable me to make a fair across the board assessment, independent of genre or whether I personally like the music. (And across time to a great extent.) And from that point of view, Monroe stands out as a giant.

----------


## AlanN

Well said, Alex. Especially the part about him wanting to do, but unable to do, what he could do in his younger days. Kind of like Muhammad Ali.

Also, this part 

*quote:  I don't see Bill's playing as some sort of backwards technology that was good enough at the time but we have now surpassed. I think that is a bad analogy for any type of music.*

How true. A good parallel is indeed 50's jazz. There's a great youtube snippet of Bird playing with either Coleman Hawkins or Ben Webster. 2 very distinct styles; the old on-the-way-out lion with the young up-coming star. Couldn't be more different, each very great. And I believe Bird couldn't have flown without the ones before him.

----------

Mike Bunting

----------


## Bmore Matt

It's funny how emotional we can get about music and our love for our favorite artists.  What your ear enjoys compared to what another person's ear enjoys is the very definition of subjective.  Many of us, however, will argue until we are blue in the face that what we think is right and what someone else thinks is wrong.  I'm sure it has something to do with the emotional attachment we form to a particular artist or piece of music.  We feel like we have to defend them, and the idea of "to each their own" goes out the window.  We forget to be rational when our emotions take over.  I'm not accusing anyone of doing this, just using the royal "we" for lack of a better term, and I'm probably more guilty of this than anyone.  

I think that's why you felt the need to preface your feelings with a disclaimer about people getting too angry with your own personal opinion.  Arguing about Bill Monroe with mandolin players can be like arguing about religion or politics.  Emotions can take over and the conversation can get too charged.  It's actually been pretty tame here in this thread, so that's a big credit to the population of this website.  

I listen to a lot of different music and I don't really have a favorite band or song or individual artist.  Variety is the spice of life, is what I'm all about.  I go through phases where I listen to classical music for a week or so, then some old bluegrass, Bill and others.  Then I'll switch to jam band music for a while or southern rock, I'm all over the place.  

My point is, that if everyone who ever picked up a mandolin after Bill did, tried to play exactly like him, then that would be boring.  I'm glad Grisman invented Dawg music and does some gypsy jazz type stuff.  I'm glad that Thile branches out from pure bluegrass music. (Thile playing Bach is a beautiful thing)  I don't think anyone beats Sam on pure rhythm.  If all of these guys sounded exactly the same, it would be boring.  

Listen to what you like.  If Bill Monroe happens to not speak to you like others do, that's fine with me.  I don't think his style is lacking fans.

----------


## oldwave

Once Mark O'Conner played at the Kent State Folk Festival a festival that I had been attending for 15 years at that time.  His set was a complete virtuoso show off. I remember after about a third of it thinking well we know you can play fast, what else do you have to say? The point is that technical virtuosity is only one portion of how a musician communicates to the audience.  Howard Louie Blouie Armstrong was by no means a technical virtuoso, (some of his early recordings were quite hot though)but his connection with the audience and his entire demeanor on stage was magnetic.  There are aspects of performance that are tied to personality and expression that are hard to quantify. I always have been a fan of the rough and tumble styles of music besides the squeaky clean technical "toure de force".  Monroe was a strong personality and was smart enough to hire many of the best players around. I like the edgy playing but by no means think it was the ultimate. Jessie McReynolds may be my favorite BG player, but there are so many great ones.   Johnny Gimble once told me "I never met a fiddle player I didn't learn something from." If you ever met him you would understand what a gracious philosophy he lives by.  There is no 'best' in this business. Art has no best, if you are thinking that way stop and ponder.

----------

MikeEdgerton

----------


## Alex Orr

> Thile playing Bach is a beautiful thing


Other than a few of the instances where he's playing a trad bluegrass tune, the only Thile I really enjoy is his classical stuff.




> A good parallel is indeed 50's jazz. There's a great youtube snippet of Bird playing with either Coleman Hawkins or Ben Webster. 2 very distinct styles; the old on-the-way-out lion with the young up-coming star. Couldn't be more different, each very great. And I believe Bird couldn't have flown without the ones before him.


And to piggy-back on that a bit, sometimes I love way-out-there blaring free jazz, and sometimes I'm not in the mood for it.  However, I will almost always be happy with some great traditional big band stuff.  Both styles are considered "jazz", with one coming after the other in terms of stylistic chronology, but it's impossible to view the latter as replacing the older style and making it inferior in some way.  Music simply can't be judged in the same way as mechanical technology.

----------


## JeffD

> Music simply can't be judged in the same way as mechanical technology.


Yea I think you are right. New musical styles and tastes don't erase what came before or make it less relevant. But it takes some discerning and flexible ears to do it. We are soaked with high volume high precision sappy music all the time, and it takes an effort to grab a recording from only a few years ago, and not have trouble at first connecting.

But over the eons, Monroe connects. For me its a matter of getting in under my radar. I hear Southern Flavor as an intimate, visceral tune. Were Bill to be speaking to the audience that viscerally and that intimately, expressing in words the things that tune communicates, it would get pretty uncomfortable pretty quickly. Amazing what music can do.

----------


## aneumann01

Tom,

I'm right there with you. I have all the love and respect you can have for Bill Monroe. I saw him live when I was a kid. I didn't much care for what I heard 70 of the performance but the other 30 percent rocked my world. That was good enough for me. He had some awesome "moments" and that's it for me personally but that is what being a rock star in any genre is all about. Those music "moments" are what define who you are. I don't play in Monroe's style and don't aspire to. I think Mr. Monroe would prefer people to play as individuals and not be little Monroe Clones. Individuality is what he really inspired and that's what made him a legend in my mind. It's okay if other people worship him as a mandolin god. Why not? He really is but his shadow doesn't smoother out other great players before him and shouldn't smoother the players who came after. That's my personal opinion and I'm not looking to argue with anyone. I'm not gonna change my views and am not going to spend hours arguing with people who are irritated because I don't think just like they do. Just saying: Tom, you're not alone in your view of Bill Monroe's body of work.

----------


## shawnbrock

Okay...  

As a 32-year-old who's been playing bluegrass for 23 years, I know where you come from on this.  At the age of 9 my guitar teacher, (Picker123 on the Cafe), said, "You need to learn some of this Bluegrass".  I told him that I didn't want to play that "Hillbilly" junk.  I only wanted to play rock.  Also let me disclose that I'm a Hillbilly, so please don't take to heart my derogatory reference as a 9 year old kid.  My opinions of Grass were based on hearing Bill and the other legends, I didn't know that the music had evolved.  My teacher dropped the Tony Rice Cold On The Shoulder album on me and that was it.  All I wanted to learn was Bluegrass. 

It was perhaps 10 years later that I came to respect the playing of our forefathers'.  I began to think about how these guys just had to play.  They came up with everything and didn't have other pickers to copy from.  Now that's art!  Bill was an artist, I'm just a mandolin player.  Most of us just copy what we hear from someone or some place.  Guys like Bill had to come up with a lot of what they played, they didn't have references like we do.  It takes a talented and bad dood to do what Bill did, and I love his playing style.  Having said that, I never have and probably never will want to play that style.

----------


## OldSausage

And that Johann Sebastian Bach. A lot of people like him, but it has to be said, he was no Mozart.

----------

doc holiday

----------


## JeffD

> And that Johann Sebastian Bach. A lot of people like him, but it has to be said, he was no Mozart.


 :Laughing:

----------


## mtucker

> And that Johann Sebastian Bach. A lot of people like him, but it has to be said, he was no Mozart.


And folks said 'Lloyd Loar was no Orville Gibson!'  ...it was painfully obvious, he only lasted there a few years!  :Cow:

----------


## poymando

"On one hand, Southern Flavor is one of my favorite tunes to play. I play the lead very differently from Monroe's way of playing it, but the melody and chord progression of the B part are always where I can have a blast devising new melodic runs.

On the other, though, I just find most of his playing to be sort of "sloppy choppy," too thin, staccato, and, well, just messy for my own personal tastes. I could continue about how I also feel that his playing was somewhat limited in scope, but I digress. I don't want this to become a derailment where we just make petty comparisons".



Bill Monroe was not a sloppy player nor was he limited in scope. Ask Andy Statman about who he thinks was the most "outside" musician... 
I can appreciate you saying that you simply don't care for Monroe's playing but from reading your post, I don't think you know enough about the music to ably say his playing was "sloppy". We each have our own sense of taste and I think that it is completely fair to simply say "I don't like Bill Monroe's mandolin playing" and leave it at that. I do though think that if you're going to speak to the specifics of his playing you should have the knowledge and experience to back your opinion up if you want to be taken seriously.

----------

bruce.b

----------


## Pete Jenner

...and Richard Trevithick was no George Stephenson.

----------


## mrmando

> I don't see Bill's playing as some sort of backwards technology that was good enough at the time but we have now surpassed. I think that is a bad analogy for any type of music.


Well, that's good, because after all, bluegrass is full of breakdowns.

----------


## Alex Orr

> I think Mr. Monroe would prefer people to play as individuals and not be little Monroe Clones.


Maybe...or maybe he'd listen to your "individuality" and say, "That ain't no part of nothing!"  :Laughing:

----------


## bratsche

"And that Johann Sebastian Bach. A lot of people like him, but it has to be said, he was no Mozart."

History may not repeat itself, but it definitely rhymes.   :Smile: 

I probably wouldn't have clicked on this thread if it had "bluegrass" in the title (there's only so much time in the day after all!)  But I will listen to YouTube bits of bluegrass and Bill Monroe occasionally.  It doesn't touch my soul, but my secondary auditory cortex can be stimulated positively by it in small doses.  That is, until the singing begins.  Nothing will make me hit the stop and back out buttons faster than the high lonesome stuff.  That to me is like nails on a chalkboard.

bratsche

----------


## Mandosummers

I love Bill's 's tunes... as long as someone else is playing them.

----------


## mtucker

and the Preakness ain't no Kentucky Derby either...their grass isn't blue!

----------


## Larry Simonson

In regard to Monroe's mandolin playing I think a good sign of its greatness is the thousands of players who do their best to "sound like Bill".   I can't think of a more convincing measure.  Geeze, I wish there were just one player who wished they could sound like me.

----------


## tiltman

> I think Mr. Monroe would prefer people to play as individuals and not be little Monroe Clones.


Agreed. In fact, I just read that he told Frank Wakefield it was time for him to go out and do music his own way.
And look what he did!

Kirk

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> ...Geeze, I wish there were just one player who wished they could sound like me.


Post a sound clip. I have to know what I'm shooting for.

----------


## Steve Sorensen

As long as somebody is playing the mandolin, I for it.  Sure glad Bill stepped into that barbershop way back then. 

Steve

----------


## belbein

> For me, that's the "Robert Johnson Blues" side of BM. Can't relate to it, personally, with almost no dynamics and timing that could be charitably described as "loose." But it's real, and it's authentic, and it's great for what it is.


Well, two observations.  

1.  I love blues.  Still, I find the real old stuff, like Robert Johnson hard to enjoy because ... well, it isn't what I like, I guess.  But given what he awakened in the people who came after him, I have to respect him.  
2.  That video is everything I've come to dislike about Bluegrass.  The playing is fabulous, the speed incredible.  But when music becomes a race to see whose fingers move fastest, it just loses my interest.  I couldn't get through 2:21 of it.  

Just me.  Many much more intelligent people and more educated people than I have different opinions.

----------

Bob Clark

----------


## DataNick

> Well, two observations.  
> 
> 1.  I love blues.  Still, I find the real old stuff, like Robert Johnson hard to enjoy because ... well, it isn't what I like, I guess.  But given what he awakened in the people who came after him, I have to respect him.  
> 2.  That video is everything I've come to dislike about Bluegrass.  The playing is fabulous, the speed incredible.  But when music becomes a race to see whose fingers move fastest, it just loses my interest.  I couldn't get through 2:21 of it.  
> 
> Just me.  Many much more intelligent people and more educated people than I have different opinions.


Which video Brad?

----------


## Tom Haywood

This is like saying that I respect Chuck Berry as a pioneer of a new style of music that remains popular today and I like a few of his songs a lot, but I think his guitar playing is simple and crude and is not what I would want to play. I'm certainly entitled to that opinion. I would hesitate to post it on a rock and roll guitar player web forum unless I was looking for an argument. But I think the reality is that had he not written those songs, had he not played those guitar riffs exactly the way he did, had he not recorded all of that, rock and roll would have become something very different than what we know, and many of the great players who learned to play from his records and concerts, and went on to improve upon his sound and create their own, might not have become our guitar heroes. It is easy to argue that Jerry Garcia played Johnny B. Goode better than Chuck Berry, but I recall reading somewhere that he said it was one of the first songs he learned to play on the guitar and that he was simply trying to get the same sound that Berry got on that song and was disappointed that he never could quite get it. I think Berry's style is a lot like Monroe's style. It is choppy most of the time, it implies notes rather than playing them in order to play faster, and the notes that are played are exactly the right notes to sound the style. The technique works very well for an exciting stage performance and in a setting that used primitive technical equipment by today's standards. So, I may not want to play like either of those guys, but what does that matter. They are still great musicians and players in their own right, not merely a point of historical interest in a museum. The more I learn about the mandolin the more I want to learn how Monroe played it, because he understood it. Seems like everybody wants to play Jerusalem Ridge like the Rice brothers did and that's great. Monroe's version is simple and even crude, but to me it makes the truest statement of the tune. That's worth learning IMO.

----------


## almeriastrings

Interesting you mention Chuck Berry. I agree there are similarities (not least that Chuck's licks on electric guitar are remarkably similar to some of the stuff Monroe was doing a couple of decades earlier - Blue Grass Special, for example). Also, these terms "crude" or "sloppy".... there is a great sequence where Chuck Berry and Keith Richards "get into it"...

Listen to exactly what Chuck Berry says. That could be Monroe talking.




Priceless! That is quite a guitar lesson!!!  :Laughing:

----------

FLATROCK HILL, 

Jesse Harmon, 

Jim, 

Marty Henrickson, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

sgarrity

----------


## GratefulDel321

yea if you dont have proper grammar a lot of people like to chastise you cuz of it only because there grammar is perfect everytime they right a post or reply its really disrespectful to them they think and they would rather talk about that than contribute to your post

uh oh i didnt use proper grammar here they come!!

----------


## mandolirius

> yea if you dont have proper grammar a lot of people like to chastise you cuz of it only because there grammar is perfect everytime they right a post or reply its really disrespectful to them they think and they would rather talk about that than contribute to your post
> 
> uh oh i didnt use proper grammar here they come!!


???????

----------


## sgarrity

That Chuck Berry video is priceless!!

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Interesting you mention Chuck Berry. I agree there are similarities (not least that Chuck's licks on electric guitar are remarkably similar to some of the stuff Monroe was doing a couple of decades earlier - Blue Grass Special, for example). Also, these terms "crude" or "sloppy".... there is a great sequence where Chuck Berry and Keith Richards "get into it"...
> 
> Listen to exactly what Chuck Berry says. That could be Monroe talking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Priceless! That is quite a guitar lesson!!!


That's from "Hail,Hail, Rock and Roll" isn't it? What a cool lick that vibrato thing is. What would Keith have done if there hadn't been a Chuck Berry?

----------


## almeriastrings

Yes. There are definitely some major parallels in approach between Monroe and Berry. Both brilliant songwriters too. Both developed a sound so distinctive it only takes a few bars to tell who it is. What I think a lot of people miss (and superbly conveyed by Berry in that clip above, especially when talking about his amp settings) is that they sounded exactly like that *BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO*. Not because they lacked the skill to sound different (aka "better"). Monroe could sound very different - *when he felt like it* "My Last Days on Earth" being a prime example. There is also that timing thing going on with both Berry and Monroe where it sometimes sounds like they are just tipping over the edge.... but never do. That is hard to get just right. They "get into the groove" and it is like train, but with a touch of time-warp... very subtle and distinctive. As said before, anyone who thinks it is easy - try it.

Interesting in that clip too that Keith says that he heard Chuck's guitar and "knew that's what he wanted to do". Ricky Skaggs says the same thing about Monroe on the Bluegrass Mandolin Extravaganza CD, right before he delivers a blistering "Blue Grass Special".

Monroe and Berry. Both uncompromising personalities... both created some of best music ever (in my opinion).

----------

Marty Henrickson, 

Mike Bunting

----------


## Mike Bunting

> Yes. There are definitely some major parallels in approach between Monroe and Berry. Both brilliant songwriters too. Both developed a sound so distinctive it only takes a few bars to tell who it is. What I think a lot of people miss (and superbly conveyed by Berry in that clip above, especially when talking about his amp settings) is that they sounded exactly like that *BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO*. Not because they lacked the skill to sound different (aka "better"). Monroe could sound very different - *when he felt like it* "My Last Days on Earth" being a prime example. There is also that timing thing going on with both Berry and Monroe where it sometimes sounds like they are just tipping over the edge.... but never do. That is hard to get just right. They "get into the groove" and it is like train, but with a touch of time-warp... very subtle and distinctive. As said before, anyone who thinks it is easy - try it.
> 
> Interesting in that clip too that Keith says that he heard Chuck's guitar and "knew that's what he wanted to do". Ricky Skaggs says the same thing about Monroe on the Bluegrass Mandolin Extravaganza CD, right before he delivers a blistering "Blue Grass Special".
> 
> Monroe and Berry. Both uncompromising personalities... both created some of best music ever (in my opinion).


Amen. And, when I listen to "To Much Monkey Business", I can't help think of some of the debt that Bob Dylan owes Chuck Berry in the songwriting department.

----------


## almeriastrings

Listening to that, Mike - I also think there is proto-rap going on there!

----------


## Tom Coletti

I think we've all made our points. I'm taking a break from the forums for a while and will try to look at things in context and with a new perspective. Other than that, I think that this thread, like those before it, has performed its task--a sort of pondering out loud of something that has bugged me for a while, with input from various points of view--but I feel like the thread is in jeopardy of veering off-topic, into redundant circuits, or in a manner not unlike that portrayed in the above image, so you can continue to discuss other genres or what hasn't properly grammatical or some other oddities, but I'll leave this one be.

If I drop off the radar, it's because I'd like to try to not be "sloppy choppy" myself and need practice, more plucking and less clucking. And Dobro. I really want to play some Dobro...

--Tom

----------


## mrmando

> yea if you dont have proper grammar a lot of people like to chastise you cuz of it only because there grammar is perfect everytime they right a post or reply its really disrespectful to them they think and they would rather talk about that than contribute to your post
> 
> uh oh i didnt use proper grammar here they come!!


Anybody can make a grammatical mistake. But to rub everyone's noses in your own inability to communicate  that requires a spectacular lack of maturity.

----------

FLATROCK HILL, 

greg_tsam, 

Larry S Sherman, 

Mike Bunting, 

MikeEdgerton, 

TheArimathean

----------


## mandroid

Wow long  day   5 pages .. 

Bill' s nice ..  he has his  voice through the Mandolin, had a career.. made recordings  demi Icon..  

I have what  voice through mine, I have.. no career , rarely travel  . ( not hermit, come on by )

as the  Miles  Davis  tune title says, ... So What ?

----------


## Nick Gellie

Hi Mandolineer,

You should stay with this thread.  I agree with you that Bill Monroe's mandolin playing is too straight and lacking in tonal variety on some his recordings.  It lacks subtlety, change in tone and attack in his fast bluegrass numbers.  Still, the man was a genius and a very influential musician.  Look what he has done to make mandolin playing available to a great range of people.  We could have otherwise been stuck with classical mandolin perhaps.  

Yank Rachell and others helped established the blues mandolin genre.  Yank had incredible talent and skill in making the mandolin accessible to black blues musicians.  Given that bluegrass has in part its origins in the blues, Bill Monroe borrowed from various traditions to create the music that is today.  We should not forget the influence of old-time musicians in keeping alive the tradition before Bill came along.  It would be interesting to know if there more mandolinists playing old-time now than ever in the past.

I also agree that the modern mandolin players (e.g. Sam Bush, Dave Grisman, Chris Thile, Adam Steffey, John Reischman and a host of others) vary their playing and technique to create a wonderful dynamic and take Monroe's tunes and songs to another dimension.  Here we have the legacy of Bill Monroe - he inspired others and is still inspiring many aspiring mandolinists to play and experience blues, bluegrass, and old-time.  My mandolin playing has benefited from all these wonderful musicians, including Bill Monroe.  I am very grateful for that.

Finally, there are better mandolin players than Bill.  I do not denigrate him one iota - he was one of a kind.

----------


## Pete Jenner

> ( not hermit, come on by )


Free beer?

----------


## Mike Crocker

Different tastes make the arts and music world go around. I'm not a big Bill Munroe fan either. Some of his stuff is cool, but I'm more interested in other styles (classical, celtic, jazz) and other approaches to the instrument. Nevertheless, the man was an influence on the world and it's cool to borrow from him what suits us and leave the rest for others.

In other forums I've seen the same attitudes about Jimi Hendrix and other icons.

Peace.

----------


## Jesse Harmon

I've been trying to find a DVD of "Hail Hail Rock and Roll".  I had a Beta tape years ago that got away from me.  I was told last week when visiting the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland that it is not available anymore.  Too bad, it's not only educational but a fun video to watch.  thanks for posting.

----------


## Tom Haywood

Wow, Almeriastrings, that is the precise example of what I hoped to describe! Berry's technique on that slur is what makes the statement in that style of music. And he created that statement. Richards has a much smoother interpretation of it which is pretty much the way most folks play it now. The difference in the statement is obvious. It also seems obvious that Richards has no intention of playing it the way Berry does. Maybe he doesn't like it, maybe he can't get it, maybe he relishes the difference - who knows? Both ways are excellent, but Berry is the cause of what Richards and others are doing. And to my ear, Berry drives that nail a little bit truer. So it is IMO with Monroe and bluegrass mandolin, less with mandolin in other styles of music.

----------


## Michael Bridges

Well, at least you're not planning on taking up banjo!


> I think we've all made our points. I'm taking a break from the forums for a while and will try to look at things in context and with a new perspective. Other than that, I think that this thread, like those before it, has performed its task--a sort of pondering out loud of something that has bugged me for a while, with input from various points of view--but I feel like the thread is in jeopardy of veering off-topic, into redundant circuits, or in a manner not unlike that portrayed in the above image, so you can continue to discuss other genres or what hasn't properly grammatical or some other oddities, but I'll leave this one be.
> 
> If I drop off the radar, it's because I'd like to try to not be "sloppy choppy" myself and need practice, more plucking and less clucking. And Dobro. I really want to play some Dobro...
> 
> --Tom

----------


## Marty Henrickson

> I've been trying to find a DVD of "Hail Hail Rock and Roll".  I had a Beta tape years ago that got away from me.  I was told last week when visiting the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland that it is not available anymore.  Too bad, it's not only educational but a fun video to watch.  thanks for posting.


Jesse, I found it here.  No financial interest.

----------

Jesse Harmon, 

SincereCorgi

----------


## jmalmsteen

Seriously?? If I wrote what I really thought here my account would get locked.  And you preface the most obnoxious thing you can possibly say with a request for no "trolls." You sir make me want to avoid this site, not the other people you seem to have issues with. Let me guess your next post, "Gibson's suck," and then "bluegrass musicians should play A style mandolins."

----------


## stevedenver

> Seriously?? If I wrote what I really thought here my account would get locked.  And you preface the most obnoxious thing you can possibly say with a request for no "trolls." You sir make me want to avoid this site, not the other people you seem to have issues with. Let me guess your next post, "Gibson's suck," and then "bluegrass musicians should play A style mandolins."


And, I guess, imho,  from the vitriolic tone, that is possibly why he made the preface.  We all balk at the thought, "Everything you know is wrong".  But I'm willing to bet theres a lot of things I "know" which I might be better educated on, or, even how others feel about things.  This allows me to be a bit more attuned to how I will be received.

This is the internet, and one thing I have seen, is that people seem to communicate, sometimes a bit more aggressively than I would expect in person. In order to get the good things this site offers, and which its varied members offer, one has to have a bit of the ability to understand that the world is not homogenous.

I think it's ok to discuss topics that one doesn't agree with, with an open mind, and with tolerance, be it grammar, age, point of view, etc.  Otherwise, its pretty hard to learn anything, or change in position, when communication stops.

----------

Jesse Harmon, 

sgarrity

----------


## mandroid

> Originally Posted by mandroid  
> ( not hermit, come on by )
> 			
> 		
> 
> Free beer?


Coming, here, from Australia ? , Ill go pick up a Case,  after meeting you, arriving
in Town,  on the Bus.   :Wink:

----------


## jaycat

Random musings:

I love the Chuck Berry comparisons. He was a genuine triple threat -- singer, writer and guitarist par excellence. And inventor of a genre (more or less).

I have never heard anyone say they didn't care for Robert Johnson's music. Or for that matter, didn't find it transcendent.

So let me get this straight wrt Bill Monroe -- he was a superior mandolinist (seems to be the general consensus) and he invented a genre of music. Not a bad legacy.

----------


## sgarrity

Monroe's style and one of his tunes being interpreted by modern players:



I can't get enough of this kind of playing.  I listen to a lot of other music but always come back to this.  The rhythmic drive combined with the blues just does it for me.

----------

almeriastrings, 

doc holiday, 

Jesse Harmon

----------


## Tom Coletti

> Seriously?? If I wrote what I really thought here my account would get locked.  And you preface the most obnoxious thing you can possibly say with a request for no "trolls." You sir make me want to avoid this site, not the other people you seem to have issues with. Let me guess your next post, "Gibson's suck," and then "bluegrass musicians should play A style mandolins."


Well I'm having issues with you right now. 

I request for no trolls because, despite my simple request and best efforts, here you are. 

I don't feel comfortable on this site because of people like you. I AVOID this site because of people like you. I've seen the extremes of people who claim "Bill Monroe sucks, A styles all the way, Gibsons are overpriced shoeboxes," etc., but having never even stated my opinion on those, I'm wondering if you're just getting bitter at me for having mixed--MIXED, not fully negative--views of Monroe and then rather than discuss the points reasonably like we've been doing, you go straight for an ad hominem and non-sequitur and make me feel incredibly unwelcome based on a generalization with no evidence.

 I've also seen stubborn bluegrass purists, Gibson snobs and F-scroll snobs. It goes both ways, but I never accuse people of this because you just can't tell most of the time without risking being completely wrong and stupid.

And for the most part, NOBODY should be concerned of posting their honest thoughts without their accounts being locked. *If you are concerned that you words to me will be so offensive that moderators have to hide them, then consider how damaging your abuse of relative anonymity on the internet is.*

But when it comes down to it, I'm abandoning the Cafe for good. At least in the Dobro world there's so few slide players in comparison that any and all resophonic representation of any styles and skill level is welcomed whole-heartedly. Nobody cares if you have a Dobro or a Regal or a Scheerhorn or a Cigar Box. Nobody cares if you prefer Douglas or Ickes or Hall or Auldridge. Steel body, metal body, roundneck, squareneck, it's all welcome with no fuss or superiority or suspicion or hostility. That's the kind of environment that I'd like to be in, so I'm leaving for it...

--Tom out.

----------


## almeriastrings

> Finally, there are better mandolin players than Bill.


You know... that depends on your perspective. He was certainly the best 'Monroe style' mandolin picker there ever was, and ever will be...

Like Berry, Django... 

The "Wizard of the Strings" (Roy Smeck) is now best remembered for vintage instruments named after him. Few remember his music... though he was technically brilliant. They'll remember Monroe, Chuck Berry, the Beatles, Doc, Hendrix, Django, Josh Graves and Earl, though....

----------

Marty Henrickson

----------


## Pete Jenner

> Coming, here, from Australia ? , Ill go pick up a Case,  after meeting you, arriving
> in Town,  on the Bus.


Excellent - I'll be there in November.  :Smile:

----------


## Bmore Matt

> Well I'm having issues with you right now. 
> 
> I request for no trolls because, despite my simple request and best efforts, here you are. 
> 
> I don't feel comfortable on this site because of people like you. I AVOID this site because of people like you. I've seen the extremes of people who claim "Bill Monroe sucks, A styles all the way, Gibsons are overpriced shoeboxes," etc., but having never even stated my opinion on those, I'm wondering if you're just getting bitter at me for having mixed--MIXED, not fully negative--views of Monroe and then rather than discuss the points reasonably like we've been doing, you go straight for an ad hominem and non-sequitur and make me feel incredibly unwelcome based on a generalization with no evidence.
> 
>  I've also seen stubborn bluegrass purists, Gibson snobs and F-scroll snobs. It goes both ways, but I never accuse people of this because you just can't tell most of the time without risking being completely wrong and stupid.
> 
> And for the most part, NOBODY should be concerned of posting their honest thoughts without their accounts being locked. *If you are concerned that you words to me will be so offensive that moderators have to hide them, then consider how damaging your abuse of relative anonymity on the internet is.*
> ...


See, this just isn't fair to the rest of us.  There has been some good healthy conversation here in this thread, and I have enjoyed all the insights and comparisons.  I really believe that you had that whole thing typed out in your head and you were just waiting for someone to give you a reason to throw it out there.  I can't help but be reminded of a paraphrase of the many old sayings about what happens when you go looking for a fight.  You will probably find one.  

There was one person, just one, that matched your description.  Because of this, you accuse the population of an entire website?  That's just not fair.  To be clear, there's a lot of your original point that I agree with.  I'm not a "Monroe purist" by any means.  I just don't think it's fair to lump all of the users of this website together and be so accusatory.  (I mostly lurk here, but I have great respect for most of these folks and what I've learned from them) 

You also say that things are better in the "Dobro world".  While I agree somewhat with your original point, I think were are worlds apart on this viewpoint.  I don't need to agree with the "mandolin world"  I can't stop playing mandolin even if I wanted to.  It's become a part of me, it speaks to me in a profound way.  

My friend, please, don't judge every poster in this thread, indeed, every user of this forum by one response.  You knew that the type of viewpoint existed that was the opposite of your own.  You dug deep enough and you found it.  I would just move on, agree to disagree and enjoy this website for the wonderful resource that it is.  You have to be realistic about these things.

----------

shortymack

----------


## Eric C.

I've used many forums over the span of my internet usage and I am yet to see a thread starter not go down in flames when the original post starts with the first two paragraphs the original poster used.

Why do people expect a forum community to be sympathetic and agreeable with them when they begin with an insulting blanket statement about the residents of the community.

Forums are like communities or provinces in their own right, and are fiercely loyal to their "nation" or "home town" which is the forum.

----------

shortymack

----------


## DataNick

> You know... that depends on your perspective. He was certainly the best 'Monroe style' mandolin picker there ever was, and ever will be...
> 
> Like Berry, Django... 
> 
> The "Wizard of the Strings" (Roy Smeck) is now best remembered for vintage instruments named after him. Few remember his music... though he was technically brilliant. They'll remember Monroe, Chuck Berry, the Beatles, Doc, Hendrix, Django, Josh Graves and Earl, though....


Almeria,
Really appreciated that Chuck Berry/Keith Richards post/video.

I read that Chuck Berry was an absolute big fan of Bill Monroe...

----------


## DataNick

> I've used many forums over the span of my internet usage and I am yet to see a thread starter not go down in flames when the original post starts with the first two paragraphs the original poster used.
> 
> Why do people expect a forum community to be sympathetic and agreeable with them when they begin with an insulting blanket statement about the residents of the community.
> 
> Forums are like communities or provinces in their own right, and are fiercely loyal to their "nation" or "home town" which is the forum.


Kinda like coming into Raider Nation with a "Go Steelers" sign?

----------


## Jesse Harmon

I learned a lot from this thread since I have not listened to much Monroe and all the discussion and videos was a good primer.  As far as the digressions and side roads, they bring dividends also as I just picked up a dvd I had looked for and couldn't find as a result of someone here.  Still can't figure why I couldn't find it before.  The guy in Cleveland told me it was one of their top sellers and they were not able to get them.  ?????

----------


## allenhopkins

Start a thread by saying you think you'll attract trolling, dollars to doughnuts you'll get at least one troll-like post.

Some folks can't help rising (or sinking) to the challenge.

I thought OP showed a bit of a chip on his shoulder in the first post.  Kind of addressed the issue in Post #29.  What we were discussing-arguing-whatever about, was people's personal preferences -- whether they liked Bill Monroe's mandolin style, or not.  You can't win (or lose) an argument of that nature.

A lot of effort and prose creation, and some interesting digressions, plus a lot of YouTube vids.  Anyway, it's the weekend, and I gotta break out the bass fiddle and play for a Civil War re-enactors' dance.  Hope y'all have a good day; heat's broken here, and perhaps the "heat" in this thread as well…

----------

Loretta Callahan

----------


## DataNick

> ... Anyway, it's the weekend, and I gotta break out the bass fiddle and play for a Civil War re-enactors' dance.  Hope y'all have a good day; heat's broken here...


Allen,

That sounds waaay cool (the re-enactor's dance)...I've seen one of those here where they actually had a kind of brass band a-la John Phillips Sousa. Sounds like a great time!...My mom in Philly told me this morning it's still hot/humid..hope the weather pattern breaks down there as well.

Take Care!

----------


## Jim

Every musician needs to have their own "sub genre" thus eliminating the " that is or isn't Bluegrass,  Rock, Country or Irish trad. Because that ain't the way XYZ played it. I'm thinking of claiming NuevoBlueReggaeFolkGrassRock, If you all don't know someone else who's already done it.

----------


## parismagicman

Some people didn't like Elvis!  Enough already.  Don't like Bill, don't listen.... He won't mind!  Read a quote the other day from Mr. Monroe.  When asked what he thought about Elvis' rendition of Blue Moon of Kentucky he merely answered, " the royalty checks are nice".  Enough said?

----------


## Eric C.

> I'm thinking of claiming NuevoBlueReggaeFolkGrassRock, If you all don't know someone else who's already done it.


Please don't! I don't want to have to worry if I'm playing it like Jim Richmond would play it!

----------


## Jim

> Please don't! I don't want to have to worry if I'm playing it like Jim Richmond would play it!


 Cause if you play it different it won't be no part of nuthin'. Course since the sub genre doesn't exist , it already isn't. There, wasn't that easy. It's all good. :Grin:

----------


## John Hill

Not sure I get the OP's last post...there are sub-forums & group forums for every conceivable style, genre & sub-genre...and from what I've usually seen this place is as accomodating and respectful as any interwebs you're likely to find. 

Oh well. 

When I started out on mando I came at it sideways from blues/jazz background and into Dawg music. Loved it, still do. It took me quite a while to appreciate Monroe because, to me, he played sloppily. Once I began trying to play his tunes I realized that very clean, single note picking sounded very "sterile", for lack of a better term. Before I knew it I was floored by the style & drive and sometimes "dangerous" playing of Monroe. Like Bach, I think, Monroe's music is all the more enjoyable trying to play it and recreate it. 

That said I still love most all mandolin music...and Monk...and Zappa..and Rush...and Brahms.

----------

DataNick, 

mandolirius, 

Marty Henrickson, 

Mike Bunting

----------


## mandolirius

> Well I'm having issues with you right now. 
> 
> I request for no trolls because, despite my simple request and best efforts, here you are. 
> 
> I don't feel comfortable on this site because of people like you. I AVOID this site because of people like you. I've seen the extremes of people who claim "Bill Monroe sucks, A styles all the way, Gibsons are overpriced shoeboxes," etc., but having never even stated my opinion on those, I'm wondering if you're just getting bitter at me for having mixed--MIXED, not fully negative--views of Monroe and then rather than discuss the points reasonably like we've been doing, you go straight for an ad hominem and non-sequitur and make me feel incredibly unwelcome based on a generalization with no evidence.
> 
>  I've also seen stubborn bluegrass purists, Gibson snobs and F-scroll snobs. It goes both ways, but I never accuse people of this because you just can't tell most of the time without risking being completely wrong and stupid.
> 
> And for the most part, NOBODY should be concerned of posting their honest thoughts without their accounts being locked. *If you are concerned that you words to me will be so offensive that moderators have to hide them, then consider how damaging your abuse of relative anonymity on the internet is.*
> ...


I'm going to suggest this result (you leaving in a huff) is largely of your own making. You started off with a laundry list of what you didn't want to discuss but you didn't form a clear point this thread could have been built around. You have mixed feelings about Monroe's playing. It has to go somewhere from there but you didn't lead it anywhere. Happy trails.

----------


## mrmando

Again, it's one thing to say a particular player or style of play doesn't do anything for you. 

It's quite another thing to try to cut that player down by suggesting that he lacked ability, or that his contribution to the development of bluegrass wasn't all that important. (Or, as others have done when discussing other players, to suggest that the player's music "has no soul" or that the player is just a "showoff.") 

There's a difference between posting an honest opinion (we don't have a problem with that) and calling names or distributing insults (that can be a problem).

----------

Marty Henrickson

----------


## Mike Bunting

> I'm going to suggest this result (you leaving in a huff)


And if you can't leave in a huff, leave in a minute and a huff.

----------


## Big Ed

Tom:  With my warmest greeting and complete understanding. I suggest forget about Bill Monroe influence on the mandolin and music. Bill did the best he could, not many he could study to develope a style.  I am 66 and Bill was about the only game going when I started playing mandolin or from others that were students of Bill's music.  Enjoy your favorite players / give Bill a rest.

----------

f5joe

----------


## shortymack

So the truth comes out, the Monroe topic was just a fly strip. A pre cursor to "See, I told you so!". My suggestion to the OP... stop spinning webs and waiting for them to shake. Questioning a whole community of good people as to their credibility after baiting a response doesnt reflect too well.

----------

jesserules

----------


## OldSausage

I think he just wanted Bill's permission to play the dobro. Bless his heart.

----------

houseworker, 

Marty Henrickson, 

shortymack

----------


## Big Ed

Alex:  You are right on with your post, well said,

----------


## mtucker

but but but ... don't leave!  well okay, bye.

----------


## Alex Orr

> Nobody cares if you have a Dobro or a Regal or a Scheerhorn or a Cigar Box.


If you had a Schmergel the darn thing would force anyone in hearing distance (reported to be few miles BTW) to care  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## vegas

I have been an administrator at several message boards going back to 2003 and being an administrator gives you terrific insights not otherwise available to general message board members. You have personal information available to you, for instance. Many times, even a real name, address and telephone #. You get to ask the message board members all sorts of questions and find out the real reason they said certain things or started certain threads. Obviously, I don't have that information available here and I have not even bothered to read this entire thread because after reading the OP, it became clear to me why this was posted.

The OP has lurked here for a while and figured out vital things about people who post at Mandolin Café. He may not even be a mandolin player but is having some harmless fun. He devised a post which would practically *REQUIRE* a response from everybody here. 

He questioned the existence of God at the Mandolin Café. I'm being quite serious here making that statement. Bill Monroe is considered the genesis of bluegrass and the man most American mandolin pickers should aspire to be. Anything Bill Monroe's name is attached to gets at least a second look and almost always costs more. He is quoted more than anybody else here no matter what the subject of discussion. How many times a day do you run into the "no part of nothing" quote at the Café? By now, it is pretty much drilled into our brains.

The OP was very careful not to directly insult Monroe's reputation or to suggest his fame is unearned. He simply questioned his style of playing and asked others to give their reasons for respecting Monroe.  

This newbie got a thread started which has gone on for six (6) pages as of this post questioning the existence of God. That is remarkable.

My hat is off to you, sir!   :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Mike Bunting

I can see that you didn't read the whole thread.

----------


## catmandu2

> This newbie got a thread started which has gone on for six (6) pages as of this post questioning the existence of God. That is remarkable.


We're a chatty bunch; the Jack White thread ran for 13 pages - questioning whether a rock guy could have a legitimate stake in OT music : )

----------


## Scott Tichenor

Party's over.

Nothing new here. Same discussion has been held on the internet since 1994 and can be read in archived discussions--if they can be found--on CoMando. Some are eloquent in their prose, some not. No need to pile on anyone which this has turned into. However, discussions started with the purpose of expressing disdain and calling into question the choices and preferences of others are rarely of any lasting value. 

Good night.

----------

George R. Lane, 

greg_tsam, 

jmalmsteen, 

Tom Coletti, 

vegas

----------

