# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  Guitar Center article

## B381

https://www.dailynews.com/2018/03/20...usical-tastes/




> Ratings agency S&P Global downgraded Westlake Village-based Guitar Center Holdings Inc. for the second time last week as the troubled instrument retailer seeks to refinance and restructure more than $1 billion of debt.






> I have three or four guitar students who are about 12 to 14 years old, and I told one of them she should find someone in her class to play guitar with. She said, ‘No one else plays the guitar, and people think I’m weird because I do.’ ”

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## pops1

> https://www.dailynews.com/2018/03/20...usical-tastes/


Tell her they are weird because they don't. Every child should have some kind of music requirement in school just like math, science  and english.

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j. condino, 

James Miller, 

Jill McAuley, 

Randolph, 

Roger Adams, 

Timbofood

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## Roger Adams

> Tell her they are weird because they don't. Every child should have some kind of music requirement in school just like math, science  and english.


+1

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## MikeZito

It seems to me that the guy who wrote this article is of the impression that most of Guitar Center's business is selling guitars - when in truth they sell just about anything and everything that is music related.   To say that the chain is in trouble because nobody wants to play the guitar anymore is just plain ignorance.

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## Seter

> It seems to me that the guy who wrote this article is of the impression that most of Guitar Center's business is selling guitars - when in truth they sell just about anything and everything that is music related.   To say that the chain is in trouble because nobody wants to play the guitar anymore is just plain ignorance.


I've been there on Friday evenings when there has been multiple people in line buying fog machine juice.

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Canuckle

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## Mandoplumb

In the fifties the only music that was going to survive was rock and roll. Old time, country, bluegrass would all cease to exist in ten years. Well they didn't and string music and the guitar will keep plugging on. I'm 64 years old and when I was starting out, at about 13, playing BG people were saying there is no young people interested in this music anymore. Guess what I still hear the same statements. Some stores may go out of business because they will not or can not adapt but someone will always sell guitars and mandolins.

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Mark Gunter

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## JH Murray

The biggest problem is we have way too much retail capacity. The USA and Canada average 7.3 square feet of retail space per capita. That’s well in excess of the 1.7 square feet per capita in Japan and France, and the U.K.’s 1.3 square feet. The internet is still only less than 5% of retail sales. The problem is we have too many stores selling the same product.

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## Jeff Mando

Articles on Guitar Center closing seem to spring up every couple months or so, somewhere.  Everytime I go there, it is packed and I have to wait in line to give them money.  Doesn't seem like they are hurting, at least to the casual observer.  Lots of employees running around everywhere back and forth, not sure what is going on with that?  People don't understand that businesses can refinance, borrow, restructure, etc. for 20-30 years without going out of business.  The only issue is the finance charges and interest, which will probably never get paid, at least by the current ownership.....

Similar articles spring up about Gibson all the time.....

I didn't understand what School of Rock had to do with the article, other than supposedly they are doing well.

I didn't understand the comment about square footage, either.  In the USA and Canada we have plenty of land, so square footage isn't an issue.  Most malls are built on land purchased from a farmer.  Then the land around the mall is sold to places who rent to stores like Best Buy, Olive Garden, Guitar Center, etc. where it is even cheaper......has nothing to do with Japan's lack of space.  Certainly not a problem in the USA.

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## pops1

I have never been in or seen a guitar center. I just did a search for the farthest distance, 100 miles, zip, nada. Guess it is no wonder, they don't exist here. Course I am in the boonies, we don't have TV reception, but that doesn't bother me either.

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## Jeff Mando

I once heard that with so many stores, part of their sales strategy was that nowhere in the country was more than 100 miles from a guitar center.  That may have been a slight exaggeration, not sure where I heard it, but it is close to the truth.  NFI, but if you go on a regular basis there are many bargains that never make it to the online listings, in my experience.  Also, many things are purchased cheap and sold cheap, due to lack of knowledge on the part of their buyers.  An example might be something like a boutique telecaster clone being sold as a "partscaster."  Sometimes things like vintage hardshell cases will get sold for as little as $20 (and could be worth hundreds.)  OTOH, I've had good luck selling guitars and amps to guitar center, once you get a feel for how high they are willing to go. (usually it is 60-70 percent of their selling price)  Guitar Center often gets badmouthed on this and other forums for being too corporate or their employees lack of knowledge, which may be true, but it is also something you can use to your advantage, IMHO.

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## mee

> Tell her they are weird because they don't. Every child should have some kind of music requirement in school just like math, science  and english.


Sadly Music is one of the first things cut from school curriculum when it comes to budget cuts.

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## Timbofood

I was in a guitar center once...idiots!
It would be amazing to see better music and theatre programs in schools but, athletics will always get the money.
My high school had FIVE gymnasiums and not even a stage in the cafeteria! It was thirty years after I graduated before they built a theatre, sports will always beat out the arts, sad but, true.
Dont let me get started on English!

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## Mandoplumb

> Sadly Music is one of the first things cut from school curriculum when it comes to budget cuts.


If they don't teach music any better than they teach math and English they may as well drop it. They would just teach kids to hate music.

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Drew Barton

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## Drew Barton

> I was in a guitar center once...idiots!
> !


your mileage may vary but...I have 3 GCs within 30 miles. One is a 5 minute drive. I go there quite often. There are a few truths about guitar centers:
1) they have high turnover. it is commission sales and only a few do really well
2) the knowledge of the staff varies widely from touring, talented musicians whom can take their instrument apart, put it back together and play circles around me on down to people who might put a bass guitar in the electric section and not recognize they did something wrong.
3) the demeanor and helpfulness of the staff depends on management at the store. In Beaverton and Clackamas I routinely am asked if they can help, if there is one I want to play test, etc. I have gotten great service and technical knowledge.
 At Hayden Island the only time I have had someone talk to me was when I was checking out with a small purchase. Except for the one time I wanted to try a Resonator out and the guy who got it for me spent the whole time I had to test it playing riffs from his album. 
4) They have the best costs up front but taking into account the need to get your instrument set up...may not be as cheap as you think. When I bought my telecaster it was from an outfit that set up every guitar before I went out the door, came with free re-stringing for life...and went out of business 6 months later.

I have visited Guitar Centers in Phoenix, Lincoln, NE, LA, Seattle, and Las Vegas. They vary widely in friendliness and knowledge...all depends on who is working there that day.


I will say I do not envy them their jobs. Because of their famously generous return policy, low costs, and wide variety of equipment, it is not unusual to wander in and have some hotshot with amp cranked to 9, distortion to 10, cranking out what he thinks are sizzling riffs that are so hard to hear you can't tell if he is trying Mozart or Metallica...

and I have seen people be pretty abusive of them for no reason.

I have no skin in the game. I don't work at GC, I don't have stock in them, and I buy more stuff from Five Star Guitars, Portland Music Company, and a couple smaller places.

But I do disagree strongly with a blanket assessment of them as idiots. My experience overall has been quite the opposite and, in fact, no better and no worse than the multitude of other music stores I frequent.

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John Lloyd, 

MikeEdgerton

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## allenhopkins

I patronize Guitar Center and Musician's Friend for the stuff they're good at selling: PA paraphernalia (cables, mic stands, microphones etc.0, guitar stands, harmonicas, and such like.  I don't expect them to have employees who are really knowledgeable -- even as much as I am -- about mandolins, banjos, resonator guitars -- the kind of instruments I might be interested in purchasing.  I especially don't expect comprehensive knowledge of "vintage" instruments; for that, I go to one of the good vintage dealers in my area.

And I still try to give most of my business to non-chain stores; we have a really good little sound-system-oriented store here in Rochester, *Sound Source,* and I'm likely to take my PA-component business there; they also do repairs, and I can get an XLR connector replaced on a cable without having to spring for a whole new one.

But I do think Guitar Center has its niche; for example, it has a good selection of teach-yourself books if you want to be a rock-n-roller.  Our local one stocks a nice, though limited, selection of higher-end Martin, Taylor and Gibson acoustic guitars, with a nice sound-proof room to try them out.  The inventory of mandolins and banjos is nearly non-existent, though there are a few Gretsch instruments in stock.

My overall take is, "Don't knock them for not being something they're not."  Appreciate their recurrent sales, when you can pick up some gear for near-wholesale prices.  Get your mandolins and related stuff from dealers who know them, can answer your questions, and have a real selection so it's not "this one or nothing."

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Drew Barton

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## Folkmusician.com

They have massive debt.
Guitar sales are definitely down. I am not sure about things aside from Stringed instruments.
Margins are down.  Price matching when it is so easy to shop online must have at least some impact. Hard when margins are thin to begin with.
Cheaper instruments are getting better and better, meaning lower average ticket prices. 
Amazon is chipping away. When you read statistics on amazon, remember, that half their sales are via Third party, and these are not always reported as "Amazon sales" So when Amazon has a 15% marketshare, they may really account for 30%. Amazon's third party program has been so successful, that others are jumping on the bandwagon (Walmart).

You would think that they can find a way to survive, but then the same can be said for Toys R Us.

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B381, 

DataNick, 

JH Murray, 

MikeZito, 

Timbofood

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## MikeEdgerton

> ... At Hayden Island the only time I have had someone talk to me was when I was checking out with a small purchase...


Born and raised in Portland, been gone over 40 years. This is the first time I've ever seen the name Hayden Island ever on the web. Carry on.

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Drew Barton

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## catmandu2

> Guitar sales are definitely down. I am not sure about things aside from Stringed instruments...


Went into a GC once with my kids to see what they had (one decent used flamenco gtr).

One end of the store was the wall hung with the rainbow color spectrum of electrics, drums, cymbals..  The other side of the store was the EDM/tech room.  Appeared as though they had plenty of merch besides guitars.

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## jefflester

> Born and raised in Portland, been gone over 40 years. This is the first time I've ever seen the name Hayden Island ever on the web. Carry on.


<checks Google Maps> (spent ages 12-17 in Portland area, 1977-1982)

It's not at Jantzen Beach though, it's not actually on Hayden Island. It's right by Portland Meadows, a place called Hayden Meadows Square.

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## MikeEdgerton

> <checks Google Maps> (spent ages 12-17 in Portland area, 1977-1982)
> 
> It's not at Jantzen Beach though, it's not actually on Hayden Island. It's right by Portland Meadows, a place called Hayden Meadows Square.


Did even bother to look  :Smile: 

Most of what's there wasn't there when I was there.

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## Drew Barton

> Did even bother to look 
> 
> Most of what's there wasn't there when I was there.


Portland in no way, shape or form resembles PDX of 82. The influx of people from California and Colorado in particular but also from many other areas has fundamentally changed the look and feel of the place. Neither good nor bad, just reality.  Their name in the app though is Hayden Island which I never knew until the app...and I still live here :-)

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## Timbofood

I may have been caught in sweeping generalization of the place but, here in Kalamazoo, the folks could not find their back side with both hands and a roadmap! Whatever, good experiences do happen all the time, I was simply severely under impressed with snotty attitude and lack of knowledge at this one, I’m sure there are better stores with better staff, this ain’t it!

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## Jeff Mando

Timbo, YMMV, but I've been to a bunch of guitar centers and sure, it is basically Walmart for guitars.  The difference is that they buy vintage and used stuff everyday and there are some real bargains if you look for them, IMHO.  A lot of the $50 and $100 instruments don't even make it to the wall rack.  They "lean" them up against the counter near the door hoping for a quick sale and it usually works due to a cheap price.  To my way of thinking, there is a gray area where a used instruments can be borderline worthless junk or vintage collectible depending on the way it is marketed and presented.  Guitar Center consistently ignores this market -- or don't want to be bothered with it.  Hint -- many of these bargains can be listed on eBay and your purchase price can be tripled or quadrupled, if you take the time to do the work.  They are just going for the quick sale and don't really want this type of merchandise cluttering up their walls.  This stuff never makes it to the online listings.  Same with the used/vintage stuff actually on the floor for sale.  For example, many vintage blacktop era Fender amps are underpriced. (even though they are expensive)  These are quick sellers on eBay, if you know what to look for and follow that market.

To be clear, I have no interest in 98 percent of the stuff they sell.  I'm not into new stuff.  I don't need a new Martin or Fender.  I've got plenty of stuff already to play.  What I am looking for is stuff I can resell for a profit and they are a good source for that -- if you know what to look for.  My only beef is that the nearest guitar center to me is an hour and 15 minutes away, which means I only get there once every two weeks or so.  Everytime I go, I make money.  If it was closer I would go everyday.  I'm sure there are thousands of dollars falling through the cracks every month that somebody is getting.  Wish it were me!

That's my take on GC.  I recently asked one of the managers if they still had all those annoying kids packing the place on Saturday's and playing too loud -- he said, "I was one of those kids!"

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## Timbofood

You may well be right Jeff, it’s not a project I think I will be undertaking. Not in the budget or desire. To paraphrase Woodrow F. Call:
“I can’t tolerate rude behavior in a man, I just won’t stand for it.”  I’m not one to quirt someone near to death over it but, I have been known to turn on my heel and walk out.
There was a shop just down the street I strolled into, saw a mandolin on the wall (don’t remember what it was but, nothing seriously tasty) took a few minutes to reset the bridge a little then retune and started to play it a little, and the horse shoe clerk came over and had the cojones to say “Don’t you think that’s about enough?” I told him exactly which case he should stick the POS in and never went back. A couple of months the place went under, that’s what “new management” can do to an old established business.
Crappy employees do not make a good impression or basis for a successful business model.

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Jeff Mando, 

Jess L.

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## CarlM

I had a fun experience with a Guitar center employee at a local open mike.  He came in telling everyone who would listen that he was a hot shot because he worked at Guitar Center.  When he got up to do his set EVERY SINGLE SONG he retuned his guitar, lecturing the audience "Can't you hear how out of tune that is?  It must be because I work at Guitar Center my ears can hear that."

After the open mike was over several of us sat down to jam.  I was on guitar and we had a pretty good mandolin player named Bobby, there who has unfortunately passed on since then.  When it got to me I asked him "Do you know Soldier's Joy, Bobby?"  He wasn't sure so I picked a couple of bars and he went "Oh yeah, I do" and took off like a rocket on it.  The Guitar Center guys jaw dropped and he passed when it got to him in the circle.  After a couple rounds he was a lot more humble and actually was a decent guy to pick with after that day.

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## Jeff Mando

> You may well be right Jeff, it’s not a project I think I will be undertaking. Not in the budget or desire. To paraphrase Woodrow F. Call:
> “I can’t tolerate rude behavior in a man, I just won’t stand for it.”  I’m not one to quirt someone near to death over it but, I have been known to turn on my heel and walk out.


I guess I've been a horse trader so long, that I accept rudeness, mis-information, and quirkiness as part of the job description.  I deal with a lot of "self-made men" who exhibit these traits and are pretty tough negotiators, so wannabe rock-star employees at GC don't even faze me.  If there's a couple hundred bucks to be made, go ahead and be rude -- I'm here to get paid.  If there's a a thousand at stake, you can even cuss and slander me.  I don't care.  As one of my dear departed relatives used to say, "I just let that stuff roll off of me like water on a duck's back!"  (but, of course, she never said back....... :Grin: )

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## JH Murray

I was reading this article from the CBC that describes the demise of ToysRUs. Like Guitar Center, they have a massive debt which is grinding them into the ground. In Toys R Us that debt became the main focus of management, instead of innovative product lines and upkeep on retail stores and quality management of the sales force. That financial model was betting on a growing retail market, but it is cooking the goose that laid the golden egg for many retail giants. So perhaps it is a story much bigger than just Guitar Center.

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Drew Barton

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## Mandoplumb

It's so easynto blame the Internet when a store is going bankrupt but a lot of times excessive debt is what is keeping them from being able to change as needed to compete with Internet stores. We in America love debt we finance our homes, cars, campers,etc then furnish them with our credit cards. Heck if the government can why can't we.

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## allenhopkins

> ... Heck if the government can why can't we.


'Cause the government can print money, and we can't.  Legally, anyway.

The way things are going, in a few decades we'll have large on-line retailers, and little individual shops, and nothing in between.  No surprise that it's the "chain" retailers like Radio Shack, Toys'R'Us, and Guitar Center that are feeling the pinch. They have to borrow to expand, and find they've expanded beyond their means.  You know one of those chains is in trouble when its advertising disappears from TV -- which, of course, contributes to declining sales.

I still see Guitar Center ads, and get "sale" mailings, so

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## Folkmusician.com

With Toys R Us, the debt definitely sped up the process, but they were losing market share. It was just a matter of time.

Brink and Morter Toy sales are in decline(online is growing), and Walmart is taking a big chunk of that with just 5 or so isle of toys. Toys r us had to support an average store size of 35000 sq ft.



Meanwhile, online:


Amazon is unbelievably good at what they do. It's not that they're evil, just good.  Toy's R us stood no chance against them online.

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## Mandoplumb

My point is if they had been operating within their means, not mortaged to the hilt they may have had the money to restructure away from those 3500 sq ft stores to something else, I don't know what a combo store Internet or something. I heard they tried Internet but it was too slow, hard to use, problems. What profit they were making went to intrest on loan, no money to explore options.  Allenhopkins I know we can't operate in the red like the gov. That was tongue in cheek but the statement is meant to say how long can we, companies, and yes even the gov continue to exist in so much debt.

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allenhopkins

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## Jeff Mando

I ran across the company's history on their website, it is worth reading, IMHO.  Basically, GC started as the Organ Center in 1959 and then became the Vox Center in 1964 anticipating the influence of the Beatles and the "British Invasion" and the switch from organs to guitars in the music retailing business, before becoming the Guitar Center in 1971.  In 1980, they bought Kramer at the height of Eddie Van Halen's popularity as an endorser.  In 1999, they bought Musician's Friend to build the brand's online presence.  My point is that more than once, GC has been at the right place at the right time as far as music retailing markets are concerned.  My guess is that they will figure it out, again, one way or the other.

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Drew Barton

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## MikeZito

I just read the M.C. Homepage article about how long-time dealers are bailing on the highly-troubled Gibson, because Gibson is so hard to deal with . . .  but every time I walk into G.C. is see TONS of Gibson's hanging in the wall.

Birds of a feather?

Just saying . . . .

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