# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  3 Guitars in Kentucky Thunder

## mandozilla

I was just curious what others think of Ricky carrying 3 guitar pickers in Kentucky Thunder. He's got one who pretty much flatpicks solo's only, one who plays rhythm guitar only and one who plays some dopey looking (in a bluegrass context anyway) arch top guitar and sings tenor only.  :Disbelief: 

I guess he can't find one picker who can play rhythm guitar, flatpick solo's and sing tenor? There's no doub't that they sound great on recordings and live and I guess if you've bucks like Ricky has you can afford to carry extra musicians in your band.  :Wink: 

It almost seems like cheating to me. Is this possibly the wave of the future in Bluegrass music? This thread is not intended to flame Ricky Skaggs or Kentucky Thunder it's just a curiosity to me and I wonder if it is to anyone else?  :Grin: 

 :Coffee:  :Popcorn:

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## journeybear

Well, I'm not sure exactly what the story is there. You'd think he could find one guy who could do it all, so maybe he's going for some kind of bluegrass equivalent of Phil Spector's Wall Of Sound. I remember being quite curious - befuddled may be more accurate - seeing that at the Philadelphia Folk Festival some fifteen years ago. I recall there being something like nine or ten guys on stage, _four or five_ of them playing guitars at times (that would include RS occasionally). Seemed like overkill. At least I could hear the other instruments, including mandolin. (PFF has great sound techs.) It brought back bad memories of being drowned out by guitars at campfire jams and hootenannies. Personally, I would never lug that many guitarists around with me, and in fact my dream band is a power trio - mandolin, bass, and drums.  :Mandosmiley:

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## Willie Poole

A few weeks ago I saw a bluegrass band on TV that had two mandolin players, one took all of the lead breaks and the other just chopped and sang, thre are quite a few bluegrass bands out there that carry two guitars but three is overkill...He must have something that ricky thinks can`t be replaced...Willie

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## Fretbear

I heard Skaggs explain it's historical bluegrass/country precedence once, but can't remember what it was. 
Intuitively I would think that he just wants to hear that "sock" rhythm that is much more like what a percussionist would play than what the flat-top rhythm player would be doing. He could not realistically carry drums within Kentucky Thunder's format, but he has played with full percussion for years. 
Skaggs is not only picky, he has real big ears and knows what he wants to hear.

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## johnparrott

Well, the archtop that Mandozilla calls dopey-looking sounds pretty good to me. I think it's a Bourgeois cutaway. 

I like the way it beefs up the back beat, especially when Ricky takes a solo on the mandolin. 

Didn't Flatt&Scruggs use the archtop? The name Johnny Johnson comes to mind, and maybe Louis Innes played sock rhythm with them too. I'm sure there's an expert on archtop use in bluegrass music who will set us straight. 

I like the sound that Ricky's archtop player gets, and I think it adds something good to  the music, but "the wave of the future in bluegrass music"? Isn't there an oxymoron lurking in that phrase some somewhere?

All the best

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## allenhopkins

It's the Bluegrass Big Band Sound!!  Country Cooking used to carry two banjo players, Pete Wernick and Tony Trischka, though one or the other would often "double."  Lots of bands have had double fiddles -- Monroe recorded with two or three fiddles at different times -- and many have had more than one guitarist, though often one of the guitarists was primarily just a singer and didn't do any solo or strong rhythm.  When I saw Nashville Grass Curly Seckler was doing most of the guitar work, but Flatt still had that "L-5" D-28 he'd played forever.

By the way, why don't more bluegrass bands have singers who just sing and don't play an instrument?  I've seen a few "singers only," usually women, but it seems to be bad bluegrass form for someone to stand on stage and sing without some kind of instrument -- whether he/she can play it well or not...

I think that Ricky S has a definite sound in mind, both vocal and instrumental, and it has nothing to do with "being unable to find a guitarist who can play lead, rhythm, and sing tenor."  If that's what he wanted, my guess is that there are hundreds of guitarists who'd jump at the chance to play in Kentucky Thunder.  He might have trouble choosing from among them!

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## journeybear

Allen makes some good points - as usual.  :Smile:  I agree that Ricky must have a certain sound in mind, and since he can indeed pick and choose from a vast number of pickers who would love to play in his band, he's going for something other than what can be acconplished with just one guitar, or even two, for that matter. Just because I, nor Mandozilla nor Willie, see (or hear) the point in this, as Fretbear says, he has "real big ears" and is probably hearing something with this lineup that suits him. I just don't know what it is ...

As to why there aren't many non-picking singers ... I guess it would have something to do with there being so many picking singers in the business that the competition has forced them to either learn to pick or quit. It could also be an economic decision, splitting up revenue by one less portion. You'd have to be a real good singer to get beyond that, so good you'd be able to be a country star or something like that. It does seem more acceptable for singers to just sing in country and rock, though to be honest, even to me it always seemed like they were not quite carrying their weight. Then again, being not much of a singer, I tend to devalue their contribution.  :Wink:  Someone did try to convince me once that The Doors were really a power trio with an added singer.  :Disbelief:

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## Steve Williams

John you're right, at one time Johnny Johnson played archtop guitar with Flatt and Scruggs.

Steve

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## Steve Perry

Don't blame Ricky...  He don't know no better.  He was raised up around Bluegrass jams where the guitar to other instrument ratio was 8 to 1.  That's how he thinks it's supposed to be. :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:

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## Mike Snyder

The Wilders (local heros) rock on old country and fiddle tunes with an archtop. Mother Carter played an archtop. Daley and Vincent sound pretty good with Vincent playing an archtop. Gillian Welch has a six string guy that can flat tear it up on archtop. The dred is not the only guitar that can exell, much as the F5 isn't the only mandolin worth playing. Ricky knows what he's doing. He sells records, packs in the crowds, and we're always chewing his leg off online. His hair, his mandolin, his guitar players. He is among the blessed few who carry the torch for the kind of music my grandpa and I love. And bless him for going old time on his latest recording. I'll be buying that one.

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StuartE, 

Timbofood

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## earthsave

The Clinch Mountain Boys usually have a couple, sometimes a few guitar players.

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## journeybear

> ... Gillian Welch has a six string guy that can flat tear it up on archtop ...


Name's David Rawlings, real talent, genuine nice guy, and they're married, as well as a duo. They just figure that for booking purposes it's a lot easier this way than to say "Gillian Welch and David Rawlings." Same with Karen Savoca (and Pete Heitzman). People who know what's what know they'll both be there. Those who don't will have an easier time remembering just one name. That's _their_ theory, anyway.  Me, I like to see everyone get credit.  :Wink:

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## Mike Snyder

David Rawlings and Ike Shelton of the Wilders get very similar tone out of vintage arch top guitars.
I'll bet all those guitar cases take up some serious room in Rickys' tour bus.

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## journeybear

_Tour bus?_ You mean 18 wheeler!  :Laughing:

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## swampstomper

Successful band leaders often indulge themselves with big units -- look at Bob Wills!! or for a more modern example (following Wills) is Merle Haggard. They want to put on the best possible show, they can afford it, so they do it. In this case I support Ricky all the way -- he's spending more money than he "needs" to (he could sell out his concerts with himself, a bass and rhythm guitar) to get the sound he wants.

Back to F&S, they often had a "sock" rhythm player after Curly Sechler left the band. At the Carnegie Hall (1962) concert it was the "singing bus driver", as Lester called him, Billy Powers. 

The Stanley bands are another story -- the lead singer plays rhythm and they have a lead guitarist (now James Alan Shelton).

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## mrmando

> The Stanley bands are another story -- the lead singer plays rhythm and they have a lead guitarist (now James Alan Shelton).


And often a second banjo picker too, don't they? 

I agree that 3 guitars, one of them archtop, looks unusual in a bluegrass context, but it works, and sure sounds good. KT is as tight as any band out there.

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## swampstomper

> And often a second banjo picker too, don't they?


No, they have only one main picker, the rock-solid Steve Sparkman, who plays more like Ralph than Ralph!  Ralph will play a tune or two, almost always clawhammer, but these days he mostly "just" sings. And as he gets older he sits out more of the concert and lets the boys (led by Ralph II) do much of the work. Hey, he deserves it!

Steve started with the band when Dr Ralph broke his collarbone (IIRC) and Ralph liked the sound so much, he kept him.  It's all Steve on projects such as "Clinch Mountain Country".

Speaking of the Clinch Mountain Boys, young Nathan is really coming along on mando!!

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## Ivan Kelsall

JB - I always thought that David Rawlings & Gillian Welch were married but never really 'knew',not that it would change my opinion of them - i think they're terrific, & Gillian especially has written some amazing songs.
   I've always though that the number of Guitars thar KT carries was a bit OTT,but i do like their sound,so i suppose it's not detrimental in that respect. Darrin Vincent used to do the 'arch-top' honours,so since he left,who's behind it now ?,
                                                              Ivan

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## man dough nollij

I thought Cody Kilby was his guitar player. I must have gotten that idea from Live at the Charleston Music Hall. That kid is a monster.

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## Ole Joe Clark

What difference does it make? He sounds good.

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## grassrootphilosopher

> ... Ricky (Skaggs) carrying 3 guitar pickers in Kentucky Thunder. He's got one who pretty much flatpicks solo's only, one who plays rhythm guitar only and one who plays some dopey looking (in a bluegrass context anyway) arch top guitar and sings tenor only. 
> 
> I guess he can't find one picker who can play rhythm guitar, flatpick solo's and sing tenor? There's no doub't that they sound great on recordings and live and I guess if you've bucks like Ricky has you can afford to carry extra musicians in your band. 
> 
> It almost seems like cheating to me. Is this possibly the wave of the future in Bluegrass music? This thread is not intended to flame Ricky Skaggs or Kentucky Thunder it's just a curiosity to me and I wonder if it is to anyone else?


Well, mandozilla, from a historical point of view Ricky surely ain´t cheating. Now if you only take Big Mon´s angle on bluegrass, adding a dobro even might be blasphemy.

Flatt & Scruggs, as it has been mentioned allready, had the "Ricky Skaggs" lineup. The Foggy Mountain Boys recorded quite a bit with sock rythm style backup in the old days (Mercury or Columbia... I don´t know which). The reason is that the guitar sound was fatter as they did not or very sparsely used mandolin rythm as the time went on. Mandolin pickers with the Foggy Mountain Boys were Curley Seckler as well as Everett Lilly. As the time went on mandolin solos became sparse or non existent and even backup mandolin was dropped in order to not sound like Bill Monroe. That called for a sound change which - at least on the recordings - caused the advent of archtop guitar rythm as well as "regular" bluegrass guitar rythm.

So Ricky Skaggs is not straying from the true path. 

If you look at the performance the setup makes sense also. The lead guitar player has his load to carry, so it´s nicer to have the rythm man (Paul Brewster?) sing as may do the archtop man (... Vincent replacement). The other musicians may ride their instruments. Just Ricky Skaggs has his hands full with mandolin solos, mandolin rythm, lead and tenor singing, MC work...

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## D C Blood

I believe the third guitar spot vacated by Darrin Vincent is now held down by Ed Faris, formerly of The Faris Family from Kansas.  Ed can play anything very well.

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## JeffD

3. The only instruments that will be permitted are as
follows: Five-string Banjo, Flat-top Guitar, Mandolin,
Fiddle, Dobro, and Bass Fiddle. Below are the combinations
and the ONLY combinations that will be recognized
by the SPBGMA judging officials:
4 MEMBER MANDATORY REQUIREMENT
A-Five-string banjo
B-Flat-top guitar
C-Mandolin
D-Bass fiddle
5 MEMBERS
(The 4 Member Mandatory Requirement, Plus ONE
of the following: )
A-Fiddle
B-Guitar
C-Mandolin
D-Dobro
E-Non-musician vocalist
6 MEMBERS
(The 4 Member Mandatory Requirement, Plus ONE
of the following combinations: )
A-Two fiddles
B-One fiddle and one guitar
C-One fiddle and one dobro
D-One fiddle and one mandolin
E-One guitar and one dobro
F-One guitar and one mandolin
G-One dobro and one mandolin
UP TO TWO (2) NON-MUSICIAN VOCALIST MAY BE
ADDED TO MAKE UP THE 6 MEMBER MAXIMUM


from the SPBGMA OFFICIAL
BLUEGRASS BAND COMPETITION
GENERAL RULES AND REGULATIONS

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## JeffD

That being said, I really like the Kentucky Thunder sound, and what ever Ricky has to do to get it is fine by me.

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## journeybear

I guess Ricky Skaggs and Kentucky Thunder would be disqualified and won't be competing in the SPBGMA Official Bluegrass Band Competition any time soon. Too bad, 'cause they've got some talent, and could conceivably win this contest and garner the prestige such winners receive. That would certainly help them in their career. Guess they'll just have to struggle along with the few bookings they're able to get, until they learn to toe the line. Now if only they would play by the rules ...  :Wink:

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## allenhopkins

Okay, does anyone find the term "non-musician vocalist" a bit oxymoronic?  I know what they're trying to say, a singer who doesn't play an instrument, but calling a good singer a "non-musician" seems a bit harsh.  I think the definition of "musician" is

_One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music._

"Especially" but not "exclusively."

And those SPBGMA rules: where's the spoons player?  The accordionist?  The guy with the harmonica?  Andy Statman on the clarinet?  Oh, the authoritarianism of the Bluegrass Taliban!

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## journeybear

Also Andy Statman (or Boots Randolph) on sax?

Apparently (and thankfully) eliminated, along with the musical saw ...  :Grin: 

What I find most troubling is the REQUIREMENT to have a banjo. Was that really necessary? Oh well, just have to grit your teeth ... and stand on the far side of the stage ...  :Laughing: 

All kidding aside, I surmise that in judging a band competition they want to be able to compare similar instrumentation as much as possible.

As to the vocalist issue: I guess they could have said "non-instrumentalist vocalist," but maybe that is a mulitsyllabic designation determined undesirable concerning difficulties in facilitating obviously discernible comprehension amongst prospective applicants.  :Wink:

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## AlanN

I've only seen 1 bluegrass band with a non-instrument-playing vocalist; that would be Ronnie Bowman's Committee, and I believe the non-instrument-playing vocalist was Ronnie's wife. Gotta admit, she seemed to stand around a lot.

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## JD Cowles

It's been years since I saw Ricky & KT back when their first album came out. It was at the Boulder County Fair with the smell of livestock flooding the dirt arena (I think he really liked it as he commented on it a few times).  When he did the band intros he mentioned that the 'little guy wtih the big guitar' was also their bus driver and just so happened to have a killer tenor singing ability.  Seems like good use of your staff to me...

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## Steve Perry

> I've only seen 1 bluegrass band with a non-instrument-playing vocalist; that would be Ronnie Bowman's Committee, and I believe the non-instrument-playing vocalist was Ronnie's wife. Gotta admit, she seemed to stand around a lot.


Then, there's Alecia Nugent...

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## Scotti Adams

> I've only seen 1 bluegrass band with a non-instrument-playing vocalist; that would be Ronnie Bowman's Committee, and I believe the non-instrument-playing vocalist was Ronnie's wife. Gotta admit, she seemed to stand around a lot.


As does Alecia Nugent...Melonie Cannon, ( I really like her new Cd) and Carrie Hassler..I think

Hell back when I had my own band we had electric bass as did most bands back in the 80's. When we played the SPBGMA gigs we always had to get our bass player to switch to upright...eventually they allowed at the time the acoustic electric basses..if I remember correctly. Now keep in mind that all the big name bands..The Doyles..the IIITO's....Osbornes..Seldom Scene's..Cardinals etc for the most part were even carrying electric basses and WINNING awards in their prospective catogories. That right their put a bad taste in my mouth...go figure. Please dont get me started on the SPBGMA rules. Ive grown out of touch with them for the most part so maybe things have changed.

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## Larry S Sherman

> ...they're married, as well as a duo. They just figure that for booking purposes it's a lot easier this way than to say "Gillian Welch and David Rawlings."


While it wouldn't surprise me, I have NEVER seen an official reference to the pair being married. Joined at the hip...yes. An amazing musical pairing..of course. But married? How do you know, or can you please provide a link?

Larry

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## Larry S Sherman

Answering my own question...I have found a couple of references on the web. Sorry for distracting with Gillian Welch gossip...end of hijack.

Larry

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## journeybear

Whew! Good. 'Cause I couldn't explain without namedropping, and I hate it when people overdo that ...  :Whistling:

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## grassrootphilosopher

> I believe the third guitar spot vacated by Darrin Vincent is now held down by Ed Faris, formerly of The Faris Family from Kansas.  Ed can play anything very well.


Darin Vincent at least knows how to play bass fiddle, mandolin and guitar. My guess would be that he at least had a banjo in his hand a couple of times. And since he can pick the mandolin I wouldn´t be surprised if he could play the fiddle too. I wouldn´t know about the nose flute or the comb though. I almost forgot to mention that I like his singing.




> allenhopkins Re: 3 Guitars in Kentucky Thunder
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "non-musician vocalist" ... Oh, the authoritarianism of the Bluegrass Taliban!


You crack me up.

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## allenhopkins

> ...a mulitsyllabic designation determined undesirable concerning difficulties in facilitating obviously discernible comprehension amongst prospective applicants.


Especially the banjo players, whose toleration for syllables probably stops at 2.5...

I still think they should come up with a better description of an instrument-less singer than "non-musician."  Come to think of it, I've stood next to quite a few people *with instruments* that I'd call "non-musicians."

And -- probably been called that myself.

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## LeonEvans

Darrin Vincent left KT back in late 2007 to form Dailey & Vincent and was not replaced.  That left Cody Kilby on lead guitar and Paul Brewster on rhythm guitar.  Andy Leftwich plays guitar on occasion, as does Ricky, but is mainly the fiddle player.  

Leon

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## CES

His choice of guitarists is based on the sound he wants...any of those three guys could fit any guitar bill you needed (lead, rhythm, and probably vocals, too), and I agree that Cody Kilby is a monster picker...

Interesting, too, that Andy Statman does a bit of mando picking, and I'd bet they all play at least 2 different instruments very well...

Alan, I'd fall into that category of "non-musician" regardless of which instrument I was holding...

Now, if we could just get Ricky to find a picker who doubles as a barber... :Chicken: 
(Just kidding, of course...I don't give a rip how his hair looks--hope that makes it through the filter!)

I've been less and less surprised in trying to learn songs (esp classic rock, country, and most stuff on the radio) how many times I kill myself trying to learn a fingerbusting combination of rhythm guitar and lead licks only to find out later there are actually 2 or 3 guys picking the parts...I guess that's why they call it a band...

 :Mandosmiley:

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## journeybear

> ... Interesting, too, that Andy Statman does a bit of mando picking ...


I keep forgetting that, because he's usually playing fiddle or sax. I think it's him playing mandolin in the three second glimpse one sees in the Garrison Keillor documetary, "The Man on the Radio in the Red Shoes."

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## Jonathan Reinhardt

Chuck 
remember the Ventures? we all tried to do it like them on our lone guitar. amazing that some of us got it close. was way easier to do Duane Eddy. which he confirmed many a time - "I don't record anything that my fans can't play." or something like that. 
funny thread. KT is a different kind of band. Ricky is unique. we need to live with it and enjoy him. he has done more good in a lifetime than most of us would dream of.

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## 300win

I've always thought that if you are just playing I guess "standard old bluegrass" you only need one guitar, and just one of any other instrument except for the tones that twin fiddles can give. Hmmm, kinda like what Monroe had going.

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## EggerRidgeBoy

> Name's David Rawlings, real talent, genuine nice guy, and they're married, as well as a duo. They just figure that for booking purposes it's a lot easier this way than to say "Gillian Welch and David Rawlings." Same with Karen Savoca (and Pete Heitzman). People who know what's what know they'll both be there. Those who don't will have an easier time remembering just one name. That's _their_ theory, anyway.  Me, I like to see everyone get credit.


These days they play under two monikers - "Gillian Welch" and "The David Rawlings Machine".  In either case it is just the two of them, but the name indicates who is doing the lead singing.  At the Newport Folk Festival last week, "Gillian Welch" played the main stage on Saturday, and "The David Rawlings Machine" played a secondary stage on Sunday.  The repetoire also varies a good deal depending upon who is "leading" - the song "It's Too Easy" was the only overlap in the Newport sets. At one point during the Sunday show, Gillian joked about the difference in length between their respective songs, although each ended up performing about the same number of songs (12 vs. 13).

I always thought it should have been "Gillian Welch & David Rawlings", just because in concert it does come across as an equal partnership.  But I guess this is another way to share the credit.

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## Mootin

I didn't see anyone mention this, but that "dopey arch-top" is a Weber guitar.

http://www.soundtoearth.com/instruments.php?cat=9

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## Fretbear

> What I find most troubling is the REQUIREMENT to have a banjo. Was that really necessary? Oh well, just have to grit your teeth ...


Hey, at least you have some to grit, which is more than you can say for the banjo player.....

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## mandolirius

> His choice of guitarists is based on the sound he wants...any of those three guys could fit any guitar bill you needed (lead, rhythm, and probably vocals, too), and I agree that Cody Kilby is a monster picker...
> 
> Interesting, too, that Andy Statman does a bit of mando picking, and I'd bet they all play at least 2 different instruments very well...
> 
> Alan, I'd fall into that category of "non-musician" regardless of which instrument I was holding...
> 
> Now, if we could just get Ricky to find a picker who doubles as a barber...
> (Just kidding, of course...I don't give a rip how his hair looks--hope that makes it through the filter!)
> 
> I've been less and less surprised in trying to learn songs (esp classic rock, country, and most stuff on the radio) how many times I kill myself trying to learn a fingerbusting combination of rhythm guitar and lead licks only to find out later there are actually 2 or 3 guys picking the parts...I guess that's why they call it a band...





> I keep forgetting that, because he's usually playing fiddle or sax. I think it's him playing mandolin in the three second glimpse one sees in the Garrison Keillor documetary, "The Man on the Radio in the Red Shoes."


Is there some mixing up of Andy's Statman and Leftwich? I'm confused as to how Andy Statman figures into a thread about Kentucky Thunder.

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## JeffD

> I've always thought that if you are just playing I guess "standard old bluegrass" you only need one guitar, and just one of any other instrument except for the tones that twin fiddles can give. Hmmm, kinda like what Monroe had going.


Well, perhaps without the accordion.

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## 300win

> Well, perhaps without the accordion.


I was meaning the era of Flatt and Scruggs and beyond when Bill  started incorporating twin fiddles in his music. In my opinion he did not really have "the Bluegrass sound until Flatt and Scruggs came aboard. What was before was experimintation, he was searching for the Bluegrass sound. When Lester and Earl came along, it clicked, everything aftrerwards was built on that,

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## mrmando

> Is there some mixing up of Andy's Statman and Leftwich? I'm confused as to how Andy Statman figures into a thread about Kentucky Thunder.


Andy Statman has made some guest appearances with KT. 

journeybear, however, was thinking of Andy Stein. 

But the Andy who's a regular in KT is Leftwich.

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## mandolirius

> Andy Statman has made some guest appearances with KT. 
> 
> journeybear, however, was thinking of Andy Stein. 
> 
> But the Andy who's a regular in KT is Leftwich.


Andy Statman with KT? Really? Seems an unlikely combination.

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## allenhopkins

> Andy Statman with KT? Really? Seems an unlikely combination.


_...when Andy Statman brings his clarinet to the gentle, bright "Gallatin Rag" in a guest spot, the music ceases to be bluegrass or jazz or traditional or anything in particular, but emerges instead as a hybrid of everything at once._ 

-- Review of Skaggs' _Instrumentals_ album

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## journeybear

Oops!  :Disbelief:  Sorry for the mixup, folks.  :Redface:  Statman, Stein, both very handy Andy's ...  :Wink:

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## mandozilla

Yah, yah, it's a nice guitar but it's still a dopey archtop to me...in the bluegrass context that is. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  :Grin: 

I think it boils down to money. The fewer personnel you carry, the more money you can make. Otherwise there may have been 32 piece bluegrass orchestras back in the day. lol  :Laughing: 

 :Coffee:  :Mandosmiley:

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## Bluegrass Boy

Well, no bluegrass band has as much sheer horsepower as KT. That band is in a class of its own as far as I'm concerned. Each year at the Hardly Strictly Festival in San Francisco, his gets the young folks pumped up and dancing playing very traditional bluegrass with power that most rock and roll would kill for.

Some may say that aint how Bill did it, but I'm not sure it's not in the spirit of Bill. Regardless, it sure is fun.

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## Ronny Stecher

I love guitars. Some off my favorite music had 3 guitarists. The Outlaws w/Thomasson, Jones, & Paul were fantastic. Complimenting each other with every strum and pluck, them 1st 2 albums are must owns. Lynyrd Skynyrd had King, Rossington, & Collins and were also great. The different tones from each guitarist was unique and added to the overall sound, it has to work within the song/sound. If you overplay a song and it sounds too busy you blew it, No matter how many intruments you limit yourself to. Graceful placements of the notes with distinctly different tones are great and can give the song a full and varied sound that'd be hard to replicate. Skynyrd would have Billy Powell on piano throwing in some fills and leads while you had 2 unique rhythms being played to compliment the overall sound. If it's too busy it's like looking up at the stars in NYC the beauty of the sky is lost in the light pollution. 

I also feel a voice is an instrument, It's a God given instrument/talent that some are blessed with and some ain't (like me). It's like size in sports, It can't be coached, it can be enhanced, but it's God given.

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## EdSherry

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the precedent set by Django Reinhardt with the Hot Club of France.  

Django insisted on having two rhythm guitarists as well as his own guitar, an upright bass and Stephane Grappelli on violin, so that when Django played lead, he would have as solid a rhythm sound behind him as Stephane had when he soloed.

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## mandozilla

> I love guitars. Some off my favorite music had 3 guitarists. The Outlaws w/Thomasson, Jones, & Paul were fantastic. Complimenting each other with every strum and pluck, them 1st 2 albums are must owns. Lynyrd Skynyrd had King, Rossington, & Collins and were also great. The different tones from each guitarist was unique and added to the overall sound, it has to work within the song/sound. If you overplay a song and it sounds too busy you blew it, No matter how many intruments you limit yourself to. Graceful placements of the notes with distinctly different tones are great and can give the song a full and varied sound that'd be hard to replicate. Skynyrd would have Billy Powell on piano throwing in some fills and leads while you had 2 unique rhythms being played to compliment the overall sound. If it's too busy it's like looking up at the stars in NYC the beauty of the sky is lost in the light pollution.
> 
> I also feel a voice is an instrument, It's a God given instrument/talent that some are blessed with and some ain't (like me). It's like size in sports, It can't be coached, it can be enhanced, but it's God given.





> I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the precedent set by Django Reinhardt with the Hot Club of France.
> 
> Django insisted on having two rhythm guitarists as well as his own guitar, an upright bass and Stephane Grappelli on violin, so that when Django played lead, he would have as solid a rhythm sound behind him as Stephane had when he soloed.



All well and good but it AIN'T Bluegrass! We're talking Bluegrass music here.  :Grin: 

 :Coffee:  :Mandosmiley:

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## Dennis Ladd

To me, the three guitars muddy the mix. I like the clarity and separation you get from one of each instrument in a band.

Then again, I listen mostly on headphones on a CD player so maybe muddy is as muddy does. Played on my speakers maybe it would sound better.

Still, all of his albums are keepers, aren't they.

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## EdSherry

' Zilla -- What RS/KT does clearly IS bluegrass.  The issue is why he wants a three-guitar lineup, when no other BG band (to my knowledge) has one.  The answer clearly is for the sound that he gets with three guitars -- presumably, a bigger fuller sound than he would get with one or two.  

That's what brought Django to mind.  Could Django have gotten along with just one rhythm guitar?  Sure.  But he wanted the fuller sound that he got with two rhythm players behind his solos.  

As for Dennis' point about "muddying the mix" with multiple guitars, that clearly depends on how the instruments are treated in the recording / mixing process.   An acoustic jam with three guitar players clearly can sound muddy.  Ricky and his engineer presumably work hard to eliminate the mud.   To my ears, they've succeeded, though YMMV.

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## allenhopkins

Being annoying by nature, and bringing over my point from *this recent thread,* I get a bit exercised when someone says that such and such a combination of instruments, selection of repertoire, lineup of performers, or wardrobe choice, doesn't constitute bluegrass, or jazz, or old-time, or Celtic, or whatever.  What authority determines that having three guitars in a band means that it's not a bluegrass band?  What if there were two banjo players, or three singers who didn't play instruments at all (see above), or a pennywhistle player?  Or a drummer, or harmonica player, or pedal steel -- all of which have been heard on recordings by major bluegrass artists like Flatt & Scruggs, Jim & Jesse, J D Crowe & the New South, etc.?

You may or may not like the Skaggs Wall of Sound, may find the three-guitar lineup muddy or massive or miraculous, but, regardless of whatever the IBGMA may or may not allow in its competitions, there are darn few grounds for saying Kentucky Thunder isn't bluegrass.  Sure sounds like it to me!

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## GVD

> Darrin Vincent left KT back in late 2007 to form Dailey & Vincent and was not replaced.  That left Cody Kilby on lead guitar and Paul Brewster on rhythm guitar.  Andy Leftwich plays guitar on occasion, as does Ricky, but is mainly the fiddle player.  
> 
> Leon


Darrin wasn't replaced until IIRC about the beginning of this year with as others have said Eddie Faris formerly of the Faris family band. He sings primarily baritone not tenor as someone stated earlier in the thread. Paul Brewster handles most of the tenor parts.

It's speculation on my part but one of the reasons for the seemingly redundant position may be so that person can concentrate on his harmony part. If you've ever done much harmony singing you know the baritone part can be a real handful especially when the tenor singer moves his part around alot.

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## swampstomper

> Being annoying by nature, and bringing over my point from *this recent thread,* I get a bit exercised when someone says that such and such a combination of instruments, selection of repertoire, lineup of performers, or wardrobe choice, doesn't constitute bluegrass, or jazz, or old-time, or Celtic, or whatever.


Completely agree. Was it "not bluegrass" when Monroe used twin fiddles and no banjo on the Opry stage in 1954 for the remake of Blue Moon of KY?  Was it not BG when Jimmy Martin had Earl Taylor put  a harmonica part into Jimmy's version of OBS?  On and on.

Whatever one may say about Skaggs, he puts on a bluegrass music show. He likes having more punch with his guitars, he has the money to hire them, he knows how to rehearse them to get the sound he as a bandleader wants... what's not to like?

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## JeffD

I love to watch ridiculous conversations like this, what is and what isn't bluegrass. OT music has them too, as does every genre I suspect.

This one is particularly ridiculous because we are not discussing whether an accordion can be included, or a cello, we are discussion whether a third guitar is welcome.  :Disbelief: 

Its a hoot.   :Laughing: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Tom C

That 3rd player with arched top, who just blended in, used to be Daryl Vincent. Darn good musician and singer plus he drove the bus. 
It must have been hard to Ricky to find another good arch top player who stands 5'5" and can drive a bus. how does he do it?

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## mandozilla

I didn't mean to say RS &KT was not Bluegrass, I was referring to D Rheinhardt, and the others mentioned in the quote. I like RS...alot but I still don't see why he can't find one, or two, guitar players for his band and I still see no role for a DOPEY ARCHTOP git picker in a BG band. All you other genre musicians are welcome to your opinions as am I and I find it amusing for folks whose primary musical passion IS NOT bluegrass music, Allen, to prattle on about what is or is not the music they care little about. JMHO.  :Grin: 

 :Coffee:  :Mandosmiley:

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## Paul Kotapish

I don't want to speak for Mark (mandozilla), but I read his comment about "it ain't bluegrass" to refer to the examples of the multiple guitars in the Outlas, Lynard Skinner, and Django's Hot Club--of which were--in fact--not bluegrass.

(EDIT: See Mark's comment above.)

As for the extra guitars in Kentucky Thunder, I certainly don't think they incur any penalty points in the is-it-or-is-it-not-bluegrass derby. Maybe their lineup wouldn't qualify for an SPBGMA contest, but I don't think those lads need to win any contests.

Archtop or not--we've already covered the Maybelle Carter angle on archtops in pre-bluegrass--there are plenty of examples of bluegrass bands with more than one guitar: George Shuffler's distinctive second rhythm parts and his bass-string and crosspicked guitar solos were a great part of the Stanley Brothers sound, Don Reno often swapped out his banjo for second guitar with Smiley or Harrell, just to cite two well-known exceptions to the conventional formulas.

Bluegrass music is as strong and popular as its ever been and the bluegrass tenets are well defended enough to withstand a little tinkering with the classic format. Personally, I like to hear a little experimentation with the formula.

And Mark, just because you think that an archtop doesn't belong in bluegrass, doesn't make the instrument itself DOPEY. You might argue that Ricky Skaggs is dopey for including one in his ostensible bluegrass outfit, but the instrument itself is perfectly fine--sophisticated even--in its native habitat.

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## Ronny Stecher

> All well and good but it AIN'T Bluegrass! We're talking Bluegrass music here.


Valid point I have to concede, The original post posed the question of the future of Bluegrass,I focused on the 3 guitar attack, but I always thought of the early Outlaws had elements of a High octane blue grass band, Electric guitars can play any style as there's such varying sound options, bluegrass included, Acoustics may not be as distinct, That all I wanted to add?
The Outlaws rocked but had musical genre crossovers, Here's a tune I always consided "bluegrass", I guess technically not? Here's a clip from '81 with just Hughie & Billy on guitars after Henry Paul split and one with, It's  electrified BG at times without the fiddle.....






Sorry to borrow the thread, Back on topic...


......

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## mtucker

I know this isn't strictly BG but saw these boys at the Nokia, and at times they had four 'geetar players. The lead player to the right, out of the picture, took the bread and butter solo work, sparing Joe. 'Four' guitars really rawked for them... :Laughing:

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## Ronny Stecher

The early Bernie Leadon lead eagles did some BG dabbling....

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## D C Blood

My only problem with the "sock Rhythm" of the archtop guitar is that it eliminates the mandolin chop or at least duplicates it, and we all know that the mandolin chop is a much nicer sound than an archtop guitar chop...
 :Grin:

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## GVD

> ...And Mark, just because you think that an archtop doesn't belong in bluegrass, doesn't make the instrument itself DOPEY. You might argue that Ricky Skaggs is dopey for including one in his ostensible bluegrass outfit, but the instrument itself is perfectly fine--sophisticated even--in its native habitat.


I could give a rip about the instrument itself but I sure hope he's not referring to the musicians as dopey. I don't know the Daryl Vincent that Tom C cited but I do know Darren and Eddie pretty well and I'm here to tell you them boys are BG musicians through and through. They can both play just about any instrument you stick in their hands better than you can and I guarantee they'll out sing you.

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## mandozilla

I am NOT referring to the musicians as DOPEY  :Mad: ...The musicians are just fine and I think arch-top guitars are pretty cool  :Cool: ...in their place...But I still think they're DOPEY and out of place in the BG context...that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  :Grin: 

 :Grin:  :Mandosmiley:

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## Carleton Page

I  really like the addition  of the arch top.  I think it adds a little uhmf(never tried to spell that before).  I think it contibutes a lot to the huge punch that KT has. It sounds to me like it supports the chop. Is it necessary?  No, but I think it sounds good in his music. I am sure Cody could handle it all by himself.  :Disbelief:  I am pretty sure that is not the issue.  That's apparently not how Mr. Scaggs envisions his music, and that is what it comes down to. 
Having said all that .  I will admit a little shock the first time I saw them play.

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## Bluegrass Boy

My local independent market makes great sausages. I don't ask them how they make them, I just enjoy the results and I aint gonna question how Ricky does what he does.

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## Paul Kotapish

> I am NOT referring to the musicians as DOPEY ...The musicians are just fine and I think arch-top guitars are pretty cool ...in their place...But I still think they're DOPEY and out of place in the BG context...that's my story and I'm sticking to it.


Good for you, Mark! Somebody has to hold the line around this joint.

Me, I sometimes play old-time music with a group where everybody plays arcthtop f-hole instruments--fiddle, bass, mandolin, and guitar. That's breaking at least two or three rules before we even play a note, but I think it sounds cool. And one of my favorite guitars for playing proto-bluegrass (brother duets, Carter Family stuff, Charlie Poole songs, old-time fiddle tunes) is a 1931 Martin C-1--a round-hole archtop. It's probably dopey, and I know I'm dopey, but I like it.

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## allenhopkins

> ...I find it amusing for folks whose primary musical passion IS NOT bluegrass music, Allen, to prattle on about what is or is not the music they care little about. JMHO.


Hey, be nice.  I played bluegrass for well over a decade, and have 30 years of _Bluegrass Unlimited_ back issues stacked in my basement, along with _Frets, Muleskinner News,_ etc.  Also several hundred bluegrass albums, dating back to when I was listening to the Osborne Brothers, Keith & Rooney, and the Charles River Valley Boys back in the Mesozoic Era in Cambridge MA.  I don't play it much now professionally, but enjoy the occasional jam (nice little mandolin jam at Bernunzio's last Friday, on the occasion of Grisman's visit).

_I_ find it somewhat amusing when people spend effort trying to draw boundaries around musical styles, with the intention of ruling some musicians in and others out.  Music is music, and different styles and genres are constantly influencing and cross-pollinating each other.

There are attempts to meld bluegrass with other styles that I really don't like; here's one of my un-favorites (and can you believe it, I own the LP):



But I put that down to my personal preference, not to the musicians involved transgressing some "law" about what is or isn't bluegrass.  Everyone's entitled to "prattle" on about what they don't like; no one's the Ayatollah of Bluegrass ordering a fatwah on the harmonica player.

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## Bluegrass Boy

Hmmm...a fatwah on harmonica players... I think Mr. Hopkins may be onto something.

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## man dough nollij

I guess I'm out of the loop. I thought a Fat Wah was an effects pedal.

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## JeffD

> All you other genre musicians are welcome to your opinions as am I and I find it amusing for folks whose primary musical passion IS NOT bluegrass music, Allen, to prattle on about what is or is not the music they care little about. :



So in addition to rules about what instruments can and cannot be included in bluegrass, there are rules about who can and who can't comment about what is and isn't bluegrass! 

Does SPBGMA have a guideline, how much you have to care about bluegrass to have a legitamete opinion?


And if Ricky Skaggs himself doesn't seem to care enough about it to use the right number of guitars, what chance do most of us have?


Yer starting to scare me.  :Grin:

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## mandozilla

OK, I'm hereby issuing Fatwahs against the following in BG music;

Spoons, Bones, Washboards, any wind instrument (excluding mouthharps), washtub bass's, Drums (I don't care what idiots in the studios did in the past, I'm sure the BG artists cringed at their use on their recordings.) 5 Gal buckets, Cardboard boxes, tambourines and maracas, castinets, triangles (OK for Cajun music) and any other percussion instruments besides the mandolin!  :Laughing: 


Oops! I almost forgot...no d**n cellos either!  :Mad: 

 :Coffee:  :Mandosmiley:

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## AlanN

Unless you can blow a 'mouth organ' like Toots Thielemans (or like the guy I jammed with at Delaware bluegrass fest many moons ago - very rare), I don't wanna hear it. The honking, 'blues wailing' detracts from the sound and gets in the way, imo. Spoons, and all the rest, same deal.

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## Rich Evans

Mark,

Your Fatwahs forgot to mention Saws. They are particularly irritating to me.

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## mandozilla

Right! I jammed one time with a saw player, luckily for the most part the b**jo picker drowned him out...yah, no darn saws! :Grin: 

 :Coffee:  :Mandosmiley:

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## JeffD

> OK, I'm hereby issuing Fatwahs against the following in BG music;
> 
> ...
> 
> :



 :Laughing:  I splorked my orange juice this morning.


You are a dangerous guy.

But I agree about the spoons. And drums too for that matter. 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## allenhopkins

> OK, I'm hereby issuing Fatwahs against the following in BG music:...Drums (I don't care what idiots in the studios did in the past, I'm sure the BG artists cringed at their use on their recordings)...


The late Jimmy Martin and his gang of idiots:





Also a harmonica player...and is that an accordion?  Too bad JM didn't have our expertise on what constitutes bluegrass, or he would have avoided all these violations of Bluegrass Shariah.  But I guess he's onstage with the Nitty Gritties, and couldn't help joining in their heresy.

I believe the above fatwah gives permission for any true believer to kill him, had he not already passed to his reward.

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## GVD

> The late Jimmy Martin and his gang of idiots:
> 
> Also a harmonica player...and is that an accordion?  Too bad JM didn't have our expertise on what constitutes bluegrass, or he would have avoided all these violations of Bluegrass Shariah.  But I guess he's onstage with the Nitty Gritties, and couldn't help joining in their heresy.
> 
> I believe the above fatwah gives permission for any true believer to kill him, had he not already passed to his reward.


Yeah that guy don't know squat about BG does he Allen?  :Wink:

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## CES

Is a Kazoo considered a wind instrument or a "vocal effect" since you can blow all you want but get no sound until you start hummin'?  Just checking...
 :Grin:

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## OKMike

Unlike Latin, bluegrass is not a dead language. It is being spoken by many talented people, as such it is evolving. Some like evolution, some don't. This is a fun thread to watch. I think we all have too much time on our hands. lol

Mike

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## mandozilla

Yes it's evolved from a discussion about Ricky carrying 3 guitars in his BLUEGRASS band, Kentucky Thunder, into what is , or is not, considered proper bluegrass instrumentation in a proper bluegrass band.  :Disbelief: 

You can say bluegrass is evolving. I say it's devolving into something that isn't bluegrass music...roots, americana, whatever...but it's not bluegrass music as I know it anyway. Allen, Jimmy Martin seized opportunities where he could to pad his income as anyone would but he always came back to the core bluegrass sound he loved.  :Wink: 

There are some folks around here who seem to be hell bent on changing bluegrass music for change sake...I guess they have some sort of problem with trad BG music...maybe it's not sophisticated enough and they're embarrassed to play/sing it in the city or the burbs...I dunno.  :Grin: 

In the words of the late, great Jimmy Martin;

I'm proud to say I'm a Bluegrass singing man, for it's a lonesome sound and the music of our land...

 :Coffee:  :Mandosmiley:

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## AlanN

Gotta go back to the man, Bill Monroe.

He stuck with it - through thick and thin, during the lean years -  never did he waver from his vision or its core deal of banjo, mandolin, fiddle, guitar, stand-up bass. Sure, the off-shoots occurred - NGDB, hippie-grass, Kentucky Head-Hunters, the assorted 'jam' bands, and mostly, he was 'behind them, 110%, Boy!' 

I will or will not call many of the newer things bluegrass (not here, anyway), but if Bill were alive today, he'd still be doing the Bluegrass Boys the way he always did it...at least I *think* he would.

Note: not fair to call the NGDB an off-shoot of bg. They were/are their own deal, with very much important music made, in their own style. John M. is a heck of a picker.

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## CES

I wonder if a similar discussion would have occurred on Jazzmando.com (had there been such a thing) when jazz began transitioning from Dixieland into swing/big band, then Bop, and then into fusion, with, of course, a lot of gaps/mini-genres/individual styles thrown in along the way...

Zilla, I'm glad there are folks who are die-hard traditionalists and don't begrudge your opinion at all, because I really do love that music.  But, I'm also glad there are folks pushing the boundaries of acoustic music and developing their own styles...I probably lament the recent state of country music more, as almost nothing on the radio's actually country anymore.  BUT, that's a discussion for another time/thread (that's been beaten to death, btw).

I have no issue with the archtop in KT...I like the rhythmic layer it adds, and it looks good in the band photo shoots as well  :Smile: .

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## allenhopkins

> You can say bluegrass is evolving. I say it's devolving into something that isn't bluegrass music...roots, americana, whatever...but it's not bluegrass music as I know it anyway. Allen, Jimmy Martin seized opportunities where he could to pad his income as anyone would but he always came back to the core bluegrass sound he loved...There are some folks around here who seem to be hell bent on changing bluegrass music for change sake...I guess they have some sort of problem with trad BG music...maybe it's not sophisticated enough and they're embarrassed to play/sing it in the city or the burbs...


Mark, I love traditional bluegrass music; it's what I play when I'm playing bluegrass (not that often, these days).  (And I'm a life-long Yankee with an Ivy League degree, who's lived in a Northeastern city most of my life.)  I love to sit down with a good banjo player* and pick _Footprints In the Snow, I Wonder Where You Are Tonight, I'm Coming Back But I Don't Know When, Rank Strangers, The Fields Have Turned Brown, Ocean of Diamonds, Once More,_  and all the other great Monroe, Stanleys, Flatt & Scruggs, Martin, Osbornes, etc. songs from the '40's through the '60's.

But there have been changes and evolution in the music since Monroe put it together 60+ years ago.  The Country Gentlemen in the '60's broadened their repertoire to include everything from Bob Dylan to Gordon Lightfoot to Les Paul & Mary Ford.  Jimmy Martin had a snare drum in his band back in the '70's (I've seen films re-released on DVD); Flatt & Scruggs recorded with Charlie McCoy on harmonica and Kenny Buttrey on drums.  One of the big BG hits from not that long ago was _Fox On the Run,_ lifted by Cliff Waldron and Bill Emerson from British rockers Manfred Mann.

I don't like many of the recent changes (did you check out Bad Bascomb?) any more than you do.  I never got close to "newgrass," though I admired the instrumental skills of people like Fleck, Courtney Johnson, Sam Bush and others.  Long unstructured acoustic jams leave me generally unmoved, even when they're performed by the McCouries or other bands I respect.  I find modern BG "smoothies" like Alison Krauss enjoyable to listen to, but they don't reach me like, say, Wilma Lee Cooper or Olabelle Reed.

But I think the difference between your approach and mine, is that I don't say "that's not bluegrass," any more than I'd say Charles Ives "isn't classical music" or Archie Shepp "isn't jazz."  It may not be bluegrass that I like, but I don't police the boundaries of the music.  (Cut to _Pogo_ cartoon of Churchy LaFemme as "Border Guard Bill.")  There's bluegrass I like, bluegrass I don't like, and lots of it that I'm basically indifferent to.  And bluegrass has become so big and world-wide and varied, that there's always lots to like.

So, to finally clamber down off the soapbox, Ricky Skaggs can have three guitarists, one of them playing arch-top.  He can put accordion and saxophone, clarinet and pennywhistle on his recordings, and drag the mediocre Bruce Hornsby and his piano along on as many concerts as he wants to.  I won't say, "Jeez, Ricky, that's not bluegrass."  I may say "Lose the piano player, and I'll like it better," though.

* I don't think "good banjo player" is an oxymoron, despite the Cafe majority opinion!

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## CES

Allen, now you've gone and done it...How can you dis Bruce Hornesby!! I mean, he did record "Mandolin Rain," right?  RIGHT?!!

(Just kidding, I say lose the piano player, too!)

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## JeffD

> - I will or will not call many of the newer things bluegrass (not here, anyway), but if Bill were alive today, he'd still be doing the Bluegrass Boys the way he always did it...at least I *think* he would.
> .


Yea, he wasn't much for change or innovation or anything like that.  :Laughing:   :Whistling:

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## Austin Koerner

I don't care if they have 20 guitars, as long as Paul Brewster is with them I will listen. He's a tenor machine.

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## ralph johansson

I think Ricky Skaggs could bore me to death with just on guitar.

Jimmy Martin sitting in with the Dirt Band is pretty irrelevant, although stiff. There are enough examples of his use of a snare drum, both on records
(in the 60's) and on stage; pretty annoying as the drum often covered the guitar. 

BG is almost in its absence of a role or tradition for percussion. I'm sure someone like Joe Craven could contribute interesting stuff in a BG context. I just watched a DVD of Alison Brown doing a Celtic medley with Craven playing rhythm with his hands on the head of the banjo.

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## D C Blood

My main problem with the archtop guitar rhythm is it covers up the mandolin chop, same with a snare.  It renders a mandolin chop totally irrelevant.  Flatt and Scruggs had an extra guitar for a long time, because they lessened the role of mandolin in their band.  And I guaran-d##n(ala Al Gore)tee you that it wasn't Lester or Earl's decision to record those stupid Dylan etc. songs with the drums, harmonica, etc on that last album...it was the label/producer...And Jimmy Martin used snare, mostly to give his son some spending money, and because that F-4 he always carried didn't have a decent bluegrass chop...there!!! How's that???

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## AlanN

> Yea, he wasn't much for change or innovation or anything like that.


You're absolutely right (with or without the sarcasm). Once he found the formula, he didn't budge.

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## tree

Whatever you choose to call this, I like the music.

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## swampstomper

> that F-4 he always carried didn't have a decent bluegrass chop...


Go back and listen to Bear Tracks with Crowe and Big Paul Williams on the F4, or Sweet Dixie with Emerson and Earl Taylor on the above-mentioned F4... and then see if you want to modify that statement.

Jimmy had perhaps the most powerful rhythm guitar until Del came along, that made the mando chop less important than in Monroe's band, where he often had inexperienced guitarists/bassists.  You'll note the chop was much less pronounced when Martin was in the BG Boys than in the 1960's.  Listen to Sally Goodin and Soldier's Joy (Greene, Rowan) where the chop is extreme.

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## mandolirius

> i guess i'm out of the loop. I thought a fat wah was an effects pedal.



 :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing:

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## Mike Bunting

> ) when jazz began transitioning


Being a diehard traditionalist as an English major, I find the modern (mis)use of the word "transition" by "verbing" it, ain't no part of nothin'.
Mr. Bill quite liked the use of the cello (sello, as he pronounced it} in "My Last Days on Earth"

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## allenhopkins

> Being a diehard traditionalist as an English major, I find the modern (mis)use of the word "transition" by "verbing" it, ain't no part of nothin'.


Yeah, I think you'd want to aggressively defense that verbal solecism, before it impacts the English vocabulary more than it has.

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## Mike Bunting

Ouch :Laughing:

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## AlanN

> Mr. Bill quite liked the use of the cello (sello, as he pronounced it} in "My Last Days on Earth"



Yeah, but did he carry a cello fellow on the bus?   :Mandosmiley:

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## Mike Bunting

He did have a pretty mellow fellow playing the banjo for a while.  :Smile:

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## CES

> Being a diehard traditionalist as an English major, I find the modern (mis)use of the word "transition" by "verbing" it, ain't no part of nothin'.
> Mr. Bill quite liked the use of the cello (sello, as he pronounced it} in "My Last Days on Earth"


You're correct, sir, and I admit my misuse...part of the problem with typing things quickly at work, when tired or up late, etc, is that often formal training gives way to stream of consciousness or, even worse, hurried responses containing typographical errors (note the bracket at the conclusion of the following phrase):

(sello, as he pronounced it}

As an English major myself, I apologize, and understand.  The misuse that annoys me the most, I think, is the substitution of "aggravates" for "annoys."  The misuse of "lay" is also particularly bothersome.  But, what's a guy to do?   :Laughing: 

I still like the archtop, and am quite fond of the cello myself...

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## eadg145

Personally, I am most annoyed by "leverage" being used as a verb.  But nothing compares to the widespread substitution (in all kinds of print) of "it's" for "its".

Strict grammar may well be a dying entity.  My wife and I have already had disagreements with our son's sixth grade teacher on her "correction" of comma placement in his essays.

cheers,

David

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## allenhopkins

Two of my favorites:

"Administrate" for "administer" -- working backwards from "administration," I guess.  What's next, "organizate" for "organize"?

And the lost objective case for pronouns when used in combinations: "So the banjo player said to Jim and _I_..."  You'd never say, "The banjo player said to I," but put it in combination, "me" gets dropped for "I" more and more.  I hear this all the time; fingernails on the blackboard, but it seems to be taking over.

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## CES

Alan, I'm with you on the "I/me" issue, and frequently roll my eyes as a result of "us/we" errors as well.  I had forgotten about this one earlier, but "irregardless" probably drives me crazier than all of the others!!

I rarely proof anything I put up on here, as I'm usually checking in during breaks in the daily action (and tend to post as we often speak rather than as we should speak), and have laughed at myself often when reading my posts in threads that go away for awhile and then pop back up.  I'm always careful about grammar, spelling, etc, when I write something for work or that I know will be read "officially," though.  I recently refused to let one of my children participate in a "Lifestyle Choices" survey offered at school by a very prestigious local university (it wasn't Wake Forest, Davidson, or UNC, but I won't name any names  :Laughing: .  It asked some good questions and was looking for information that may help us understand why our children choose to (or, hopefully, NOT to) participate in risky behaviors.  BUT, there were 3 misspellings in the first page and probably as many grammatical errors.  The misspellings you can blame on spell-check (they substituted "tires" for "tries" and it wasn't caught, as an example), but I figure if they're not concerned enough to do the proposal correctly, well, let's just say my children are not participating in the study.

Mike, btw, I recently typed a typo in a grammatical correction post made in good fun, too, but managed to catch it shortly after posting...feel free to bust (or is it "burst?") me anytime!!  Heck, there's probably something in this one that' incorrect...

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Mike Bunting

Way to hijack the thread, Mike! But, it's fun. Most of the complaints we have here seem to come from people trying to puff up their ideas so that they might carry more weight than they actually merit. I used to work on the union side of a large corporation where I found the level of language competence to be in a sad state. My first meeting with transition as a verb came in a memo from the head engineer who I called on it. He came to see me for an English lesson,what a laugh to see that. We are good friends by the way.

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## eadg145

Wouldn't that be "on whom I called?"  Or at least "whom I called"?

Fun with quotation marks left in on purpose. <g>

cheers,

David

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## Mike Bunting

Also, I don't mean t' kiticize undu, somebimes I dgust get grouchy, ligguistical speakigg.  :Smile:

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## CES

Stop "prosecutin'", Mike!!  :Laughing:  :Grin:  :Laughing: 

 :Mandosmiley:

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## zeemumbai

I saw Ricky Skaggs yesterday at Fresh Grass.  I love Ricky Skaggs and Kentucky Thunder and what a treat to see him again...but, I have to admit:  I didn't stay until the end because the Third Guitar player was so distracting.  His guitar is neither mic'ed nor plugged in (it was more like bizarre prop than an instrument).  Even though I am an amateur bluegrass mandolinist, I can see:  (i) his "chop work" was terrible (it's almost like he's pretend playing) and (ii) he kept playing the same chords even as the band changed keys.  I heard somewhere that he is the tour's Bus Driver.  What gives?  Please somebody help me out here.

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## Mark Wilson

Maybe he owns the bus.  That might get you on stage

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## almeriastrings

Ed Faris is a really good picker...multi-instrumentalist. Really good on dobro, mandolin and a great vocalist too. Does a lot of recording and sound engineering in addition. 

So.. strange. No idea what was going on there, but I guarantee - the guy can pick!

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## CarlM

I have not seen him with Kentucky Thunder.  I have seen him with the Faris Family Band several times.  He is in Ricky's band because he is a good player.  I do not know why that would not come across with Ricky's band.

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## Relio

I'm sure Ricky knows exactly the sound he wants. I don't think this will catch on with most bands because they probably do not want to split up the money any more than they must. I've never seen him live, but I'd love to one of these days! They have some amazing pickers that's for sure.

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## drbluegrass

> The Wilders (local heros) rock on old country and fiddle tunes with an archtop. Mother Carter played an archtop. Daley and Vincent sound pretty good with Vincent playing an archtop. Gillian Welch has a six string guy that can flat tear it up on archtop. The dred is not the only guitar that can exell, much as the F5 isn't the only mandolin worth playing. Ricky knows what he's doing. He sells records, packs in the crowds, and we're always chewing his leg off online. His hair, his mandolin, his guitar players. He is among the blessed few who carry the torch for the kind of music my grandpa and I love. And bless him for going old time on his latest recording. I'll be buying that one.



Say it brother!

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## drbluegrass

..."[Andy Leftwich plays guitar on occasion, as does Ricky, but is mainly the fiddle player....]"


Andy is also a killer mandolin player. Like so many high level bluegrass players, just when you couldn't hate them enough for being a monster (mandolin, banjo, bass, guitar, reso-guitar, fiddle) player you find out most of the members of KT (and many other bands) are very accomplished multi-instrumentalists. 

Even an irrelevant nobody like myself can hold my own with most on flat picking guitar, mandolin, banjo, and bass. Mind you I'm not at the level of any member of KT on any instrument. But I'm not all that hopelessly behind either. Like anyone else, just give me time. I'm sure there are a significant number of people on this forum who could play in KT and give a very good account of themselves.

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