# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Gibson Mandolin Banjo Trapdoor

## prairieschooner

New Mandolin Day! or is it a New Banjo Day~~~or is it both?
Sold to me as a 1922 Gibson Mandolin Banjo, from catalogs shared to me by members it looks to be a MB-1 Trapdoor with FON 11628-19. It came complete with Finger Rest, Arm Rest, Trapdoor and Case but it is missing the Tailpiece Cover (need to try and find one)
I repaired the Trapdoor yesterday and it now functions well. Need to learn more about the Banjo part of it but started to tighten the skin yesterday. Will try and tune it up later and see how crazy it sounds.

Cool old instrument if we can ever get to a jam Session again.
Steve

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Jeff Mando, 

Timbofood

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## rcc56

I have a nearly identical tenor, 11802.  It's a lot of fun.  I tune it GDAE.
I do get dirty looks when I bring it to a jam session, but I can't help it if they don't have a sense of humor.

Of course now that people have re-discovered that you can play tunes on a tenor, the same folks might now think that it's cool.

Buy your old trap-door or Vega Tubaphone tenor now before prices go up.  They will.

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prairieschooner

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## allenhopkins

Looks like the other MB-1's listed on-line have a "cloud" tailpiece cover, so that might be what yours came with.

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prairieschooner

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## MarkELynch

Congrats on your MB Steve.

The Waverly Cloud tailpiece as used on Vega, Martin and many other instruments is similar but is not what would usually be found on a 1922 Gibson.
The Gibson cover would look more like this one, they are much more difficult to find but you might get lucky.



Mark

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allenhopkins, 

prairieschooner

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## prairieschooner

I am now on the hunt! For now it would be good to find something that would fit

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## prairieschooner

> I have a nearly identical tenor, 11802.  It's a lot of fun.  I tune it GDAE.
> I do get dirty looks when I bring it to a jam session, but I can't help it if they don't have a sense of humor.


That is what I was thinking!

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## pops1

I use two sets of tenor banjo strings on my banjo mandolin. Still plenty loud, but not so harsh. Also much less tension, it is a banjo after all. The G string is only a 28 wound. That is the biggest I like to use. Most 5 string banjos don't have heavy strings and have plenty of depth, not different here. Enjoy nice find.

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## prairieschooner

pops1 ...can you send a link?

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## MikeEdgerton

I wonder if anyone has a catalog page that shows all the cover designs for that tailpiece? That's the fourth cover I've seen that fits the same base. That one engraved looks a whole lot better than the few cloud style engraved Gibson covers I've seen. Nice.

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## pops1

I have a Gibson trapdoor tenor with the same tailpiece cover as pictured above.

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## MikeEdgerton

I thought there was a catalog page in the Vintage ads Social Group that had some of these. It turns out it was one of mine. I think this one has one more bump. I have one with four bumps on my Uncle's old Regal.

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## MarkELynch

Here are some pages from the 1923 Gibson catalog picturing the MB-3 and MB-4 thanks to our friends at Guitar Compare. The tailpiece cover is that same shape as the photo I posted earlier but it isn’t clear if it is smbossed with The Gibson or simply has an embossed or engraved pattern of lines. It has always seemed odd to me that Gibson did not see fit to use a compensated bridge on their MB’s when they were so proud of the compensated bridge on their mandolin and guitar family instruments. Notably The Vega Company was ahead in banjo development at the time and always installed compensated bridges on their mandolin banjos. The short strings used on MB’s are terribly out of tune otherwise! Do any of you have theories on why Gibson may have neglected this point? You can’t just angle the bridge on a mandolin banjo to fix the intonation like you can on other types of banjos any more than you can on a mandolin.

. 

Mark

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## prairieschooner

Guess the question is what tailpiece did the MB-1 come with (thanks Mark for the '23 catalog). Here is a copy of a '20 catalog that Jim Garber sent me. It shows the MB-1 without engraving, but then it was 1920! and the not one of the higher models

Well it took the MB-1 nearly a hundred years to get to this point in time, I feel fortunate that it is in the overall condition that it is!

Steve

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## MarkELynch

Jim and Steve, thanks for locating and posting the earlier banjo catalog! It does look like the basic MB-1 uses a “Cloud” style tailpiece cover, not the fancier nickel silver cover used on the higher models, thanks for the correction. The good news for you, Steve, is that the “Cloud” (modern collector designation) will be relatively easy to find. Please keep us posted on your progress.

One last thing, can you give us a dimension from your instrument across the place where the cover attaches? We can verify if it matches the dimensions of a known Cloud cover.

Mark

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prairieschooner

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## MikeEdgerton

I'm sure it came with that tailpiece. My question is how many different covers did they make for that same base? I honestly never paid attention to that cover.

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prairieschooner

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## prairieschooner

It looks to be 1 5/16" wide, I will give a more exact dimension a little later when I can get some calipers in hand.

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## MarkELynch

Steve, thanks for the photo and the dimensions. It appears that your Gibson does not use the common Waverly type Cloud tailpiece cover, your base is much narrower.
Attached is a photo of the Waverly.

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## prairieschooner

Thanks Mark,
My guess would be that the usual cover is for a Mandolin and might need to look at Banjo Covers? anyway if I need to have one made for the 100 year birthday then so be it

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## MikeEdgerton

The Cloud tailpiece changed in dimensions over the years but not by that much. The bigger tell all there is the string tabs. Totally different than the Waverly. Now I have to go pull the other one I have here to see if that is the same. The Waverly I have here is actually wider than your cloud.

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## pops1

The tailpiece on my trapdoor is also not flat on top, but curved. It goes over the pot in a rounded shape then flattens out lower. If that makes any sense.

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prairieschooner

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## Joe Bartl

pops1,  Looks like mine?

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## pops1

Same shape, but different engraving. oops upside down.

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## William Smith

> pops1,  Looks like mine?


Does your cover have the Loar style engraving "The Gibson" on the end rather than the face?

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## MarkELynch

Interesting! The 1920 Gibson Banjo catalog that Jim found and Steve posting in #13 above shows a five lobe tailpiece cover on the MB-1 and a three lobe cover on the others. It is altogether possible that there is some variation.

Here is a great article about early Gibson banjos some of you might find interesting.

https://www.hangoutstorage.com/banjo...5916362017.pdf

Mark

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## Joe Bartl

William Smith,  Yes, the engraving is on the end:



Mark, thanks!  I look forward to reading this.

BTW, the FON on mine is 11989-10.  I assume this means it dates to 1923-1924?

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William Smith

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## prairieschooner

After the guys over at the Banjo Hangout advised me about the head I now have it off and can answer the questions.
It does have a metal tube around the top, not sure of any more than that.
The Tailpiece does clip on.
Bob Smakula stated that I can only use a Calfskin so I just ordered one from him. Now I get to learn how to stretch one of those!

Here are some pics, thanks again for any advice!
Steve

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## pops1

I am not sure why you have to use skin, Elderly has a variety of sizes for banjos, and will order a specific size if you need it. Since you have the skin ordered when you get it you will have to soak it to put it on. I like to soak them in tea, as it gives a very nice look to the skin.

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## rcc56

I'll trust Bob Smakula's judgement about the choice of head.  He knows old banjos awfully well, and stocks probably the biggest selection of banjo heads of any store.

If he's saying an off-the-shelf head won't work, he's got a good reason for it.

I just visited Banjo Hangout and read his post.  He explains that the flesh hoop on a pre-mounted head is too large to allow the tailpiece to be correctly mounted on this particular banjo.

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## pops1

Thanks Bob, my trapdoor has a fyberskin head on it and was wondering why it would have to be skin.

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## rcc56

I just looked at my trap door.  It has a tailpiece similar to Steve's, and it is a friction fit that hooks between the bottom of the flesh hoop and the top of the tension hoop.

The mounting hoop on a modern head is taller than a flesh hoop.  If I were to try to hook this tailpiece around a modern head, I would have to re-do the bends in the tailpiece, which would probably mangle it and possibly break it.

It might instead be possible to cut a notch in a modern head's mounting hoop, but it might weaken it and ruin the head.

I would have to use a different style tailpiece if I was going to put a modern head on my banjo.

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## prairieschooner

And there we have it! 
With the advice of two people who's opinion I respect rcc56 and Bob S. I am sure that I am on the right path with this Mandolin Banjo Trapdoor. Now if I can learn to make something similar to music on it....Wow would it be nice. But then how many will accept it?
Steve

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## MarkELynch

Steve, I’m glad you are making progress with your project! Here are some pages from the 1923 Gibson Handbook with instructions for mounting a skin head. Notice the recommendation about having some longer bracket hooks on hand when starting to install the new head. Best of luck. Be sure to give us some photos of your finished MB.

Mark

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