# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Making Real Wood Buttons for Gotoh Tuners...

## Scott R

So I've been sad that there are no longer any tuner buttons being made for Gotoh machines, so I decided to work on making some.



Inspired by all the great woodworking questions and answers around here, I started working towards developing a process that will let me make buttons and pockets for Gotoh, Waverly and round-shaft tuning machines. Making small parts out of wood with tight tolerances is miserable hard work--and fun!

Right now my prototypes are all being made in hard maple--and I'm going to hopefully have a few sets made up for testing in the next couple of weeks. Would anybody here be interested in trying a set out and reporting back on how they hold up and how they fit on your instrument?

Only criteria is that I'd like to send them to folks for instruments they are currently playing daily so I can get some tuning miles on them.

Anybody here interested?  :Smile: 

Thanks!

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## Lappy

I’m wondering if they would resist the torque better if the wood grains were perpendicular to the metal shaft?

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j. condino

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## amowry

Very nice! How do you make the square holes? I always thought a Lego guy with a tiny mortise machine would be about right.

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Full Circle, 

j. condino

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## Marty Jacobson



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amowry, 

tree

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## Scott R

Andrew, my LEGO guys went on strike. I making round holes and then working on a mill I’ve made some tools that let me broach the holes pretty accurately from steel.

The square holes aren’t the hardest part of all this. The small everything is.

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## Scott R

That’s a good point, right now I’m trying all the ways to see if anything is actually better. Gotoh tuners are pretty stiff compared to rubners and Schallers.  With the oval hole I’m less worried about it than I am with the small waverly square holes.

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## MontanaMatt

I've PM'd you  :Mandosmiley:

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## Brian Glueck

Me too.

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## Marty Jacobson

I think you could make acceptable square holes by drilling a hole of diameter .005" or so above the width of the square shaft, then supporting the knob in a "soft jaw" fixture (just a piece of wood with holes the size of the knobs) to prevent them from splitting, and compressing the wood into a square shape using a square piece of steel or brass rod with a double bevel ground on one end. 
The advantage of this is that as seasonal changes come on, the wood fibers will expand, if anything, rendering their fit tighter. If you get it dialed in right, it would be very fast and reliable. 

Or you could make a homemade broach out of a suitably sized steel rod. Taper it slightly and then grind a series of perpendicular flutes in it such that the leading edge is sharp. You'll have to stop and blow out the chips many times since you don't have a through hole, but you'll get a clean machined square hole just like you would get with a metal broach.

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Mandobart, 

Scott R

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## Ivan Kelsall

Hi Scott - Gotoh tuner buttons are still made of course,but Gotoh* simply will not supply* 'spares / alternatives'  !!. As for Gotohs being any more 'stiff' that other tuners,the ones on my Ellis "A" style (which you know about), work as smoothly as silk. Tom Ellis woudn't have used Gotohs for as long as he did if they weren't up to par.

   Your choice to make buttons for Gotohs ( & other tuners) is commendable. I was incredibly lucky to get a set of Black Gotoh buttons last year,which 'Allparts' USA had held in stock for many years - so long in fact that they couldn't remember how they came to have them,
                           Good luck - Ivan

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AMandolin

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## amowry

That video may be the coolest thing I've ever seen  :Wink:  I had no idea such a thing existed.

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Charles E.

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## Scott R

Yep, the dilemma is the only buttons out there are plastic and I really like wood  :Smile: 

So I figured I'd build a way to make the darn little buggers.

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## ajh

For economy you might want to look at going all the way through.  Then dust plugging the ends.  Purists may not like it but who looks that close?  How many people even know what "Handel" means?

Let folks custom order by round or square shaft size.  Otherwise (in my opinion) there is no way to fit all of the unknowns without returns eating all of the profit.  I hand made my first set of ebony buttons.  Painful.  Even worse when one snapped a few months later.  As did its replacement (yes....spares).  Anything is possible if you want to spend the money.  Or time.

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## j. condino

The square vs round hole is a moot point. 1/2 gram of sawdust and a drop of superglue will make any simple round hole work. I make buttons all of the time for a variety of instruments. Turn a cross grain dowel on the lathe as one large dowel, then slice off the individuals as needed. The little pieces are hard to hold on to, so drill the shaft hole next and use a small tapered handle in the hole while you are working the little details. 

Having done this on probably 50 sets over the years, I'll comfortably say that it is a waste of time....

For all that effort, you spend $3000 on tooling and labor to wind up with a beautiful set of buttons on a junk $45 set of Chinese tuners. You'll be 100x better off getting a set of Alessi or Waverly machines that come with nice buttons and far superior function and durability.

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Mandobart, 

MikeEdgerton

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## Scott R

Im definitely trying to do this in a way that lets folks install these without resorting to glue and having them work well. I really appreciate your experience here.

Ive had some good luck working on this over the last few weeks that have me to pretty reasonable results.  This weekend I hope to finish my first prototype set out of Paduk.  Then Ill build a few for the people who were nice enough to contact me about testing.

It might just be me but I am pretty happy with the performance of the Gotoh MA40s and would simply prefer the look and feel of wood buttons.

These are also going to be a couple kilometers wider and thinner than the Gotohs which also helps with ease of tuning for my hands.

Heres where I am so far:

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j. condino, 

Mandobart

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## Scott R

Here is the first batch of Paduk, Maple and Ebony...



And the Paduk getting the first coat of Danish Oil.  They turned a really nice dark red that is going to go nice with some tortoise binding on my Pava.

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j. condino, 

Mandobart, 

MontanaMatt, 

seankeegan

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## Rdeane

Very nice!

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## William Smith

Looking great Scott!

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Scott R

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## Steve VandeWater

Last May I had the same idea, but I wanted them to resemble Handel tuner buttons.  I carved one out of maple and wood burned the "inlay" into it. I haven't pursued the idea further. I think if you take your wood buttons and laser etch the Handel design (or any design) into them, they'd be a very popular item.
In dark colored buttons, after they are etched, you could fill the etched recess with gold (paint?) and they would look really cool.

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Bernie Daniel, 

MikeEdgerton, 

William Smith

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## Paul Busman

Those are looking very nice.  From my experience, Padouk is not exceptionally hard and can be prone to splitting.
I made a set of Cocobolo buttons for the stock tuners on my Fullerton Gloucester. They aren't as nice as yours-- basically flat discs with no contouring. I just drilled round holes and glued them on with epoxy and it worked well. They've been on there for about 10 years,I'm guessing, and haven't come loose. The bad news is that that beautiful Cocobolo grain is no longer visible, as the buttons have turned nearly pitch black (common with Cocobolo).

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## Scott R

Paul, yep, Paduk also turns a chocolate brown color in the light as it ages.  It's just how it is, you enjoy the orange while it is still in there.

Here is a look at the first two full sets of ebony buttons ready to head into finish for a couple of lucky beta testers-- Baron Collins-Hill for his Collings Mandola, and Brian Glueck for his Glueck!

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Baron Collins-Hill, 

Brian Glueck, 

MontanaMatt

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## Scott R

Here they are installed on my Pava. I learned a lesson about over tightening ebony buttons today  :Smile:

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AMandolin, 

Mandobart, 

MontanaMatt

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## MontanaMatt

Those look great on the Pava!

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## Rdeane

ScottR made me some matte ebony buttons for the Gotohs on my Collings MT2.  They were easy to install and look great.  The best part is that they are slightly less thick than the original plastic buttons and are easier to use.  I had been having some problems turning the original buttons and thought it was the tuners themselves, but now I think it was just the buttons.  No problems anymore.  ScottR has me on the list for a set of matte ebony buttons for some Grover 309s as well.  Great job, Scott!

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## Ranger Bob

I just installed a set of Scott’s ebony buttons on my Collings MT.   2 thumbs up! :Mandosmiley:   If I had 10 thumbs they’d all be up. These are pro quality, look great and function better (for me) than the original ivroids. Couldn’t be happier!

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## William Smith

Scott, did you ever get a Loar pearl button to work with and an original Handel? Email me and I may can help you some more? Your buttons are looking sweet!

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## Scott R

William--I met with George Gruhn last week and he let me mando-handle his loars to get a button off and get measurements.

If anybody has a loose set of loar-era tuners I could buy, a loose lore era button, or loose handels--get in touch. I'd like to get some to add to my research drawer.

Thanks!

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## MikeEdgerton

You're talking a few different things here. The Handels are pre-Loar as far as I know and the buttons weren't removable. Even the removable buttons from the Loar era have some iterations. Take a look through Dan Beimborn's *Mandolin Archive* under the Search the Collection tab and look for instruments with Images (they are marked). If you're looking for a set of Loar era F style arrow head tuners be prepared to pay. There are some A style arrow head tuners that pop up now and again on e-Bay that will be cheaper. The buttons should be the same.

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j. condino, 

Timbofood

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## Scott R

Mike--yeah, I am looking for an arrow end with removable pearl buttons, and some handels (a or f is fine).  I'll track some down eventually, but I might not like the price  :Wink:

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## MikeEdgerton

You probably dodn't need to buy the Handels. There are some good pictures of the originals:

https://www.mandolincafe.com/glossary/glossary_63.shtml

http://siminoff.net/tuning-machines-compared/

And you will sell more of these with holes in them to fit modern screw on tuners.

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William Smith

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## William Smith

I have a vintage set of Handel button tuners that came off an old pre 1918 Vega, the back plate is engraved on each side, looks like nickel -I was told a Vega anyway, they are drilled all the way through then pinged over where a screw would be, I wonder if I was to cut the shaft if I could get them off without destroying them?
  These were used on various higher end mandolins besides the Gibson's of the period and unlike the Gibson tuners like I said these are already drilled through-I haven't been brave as of yet! Has anyone here done what I'm thinking about doing?

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## MikeEdgerton

Wow, I've never seen that. I had them on a Joseph Bohmann bowlback several years ago. I probably would have already done what you talking about  :Smile:

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William Smith

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## William Smith

I'll see if I can get a good photo of them at some point today well likely tonight as I have a busy day, but yeah I believe I'll try to remove them-I'll have to get geared up/ get a little more courage and hopefully they didn't also glue them but I wouldn't think they would also do that but they seem to be on there pretty darn good!

  I guess it may be time to start scouring evilbay for old busted bowl backs and such-I know I remember seeing handel buttons on some bowl backs-you just confirmed it Mike, were they glued on like the ones that Gibson used? I've seen pearl buttons also on some old mandolins that were drilled all the way through and pinged over!

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## MikeEdgerton

I think they were. I posted a picture of the Bohmann several years ago. I'll see if I can find it. The best part is that I was seeing Bohmann's for years on eBay with the tuners stripped and never knew why. He apparently was fond of them and mandolin and guitar geeks had been buying the bowlbacks and selling the carcasses for years.

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## Scott R

Thanks everybody for your interest and encouragement of my shenanigans here.  I'm sure I'll track some of these down eventually  :Smile:

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## Baron Collins-Hill

I've really been enjoying the beta-buttons Scott so graciously sent me for my Collings mandola! They were extremely easy to install, fit the posts much better than the plastic ones that came off, and look 1000 times classier in my opinion! Thanks Scott!



Thanks,
Baron

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j. condino

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## Scott R

Looks like the custom buttons I made for the Ellis folks for one of Pava's A5's have made their way over to Carters!

https://cartervintage.com/collection...namm-model-new

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stevojack665

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## j. condino

If I recall correctly, about ten years ago, someone around here found a big Mason jar of uninstalled engraved Handel buttons.

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## MikeEdgerton

> If I recall correctly, about ten years ago, someone around here found a big Mason jar of uninstalled engraved Handel buttons.


I don't remember that but I wish it was me that found them  :Cool: 

Things like this do happen.

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## Richard500

For a cello adventure in unnecessary design, I found copious sources online for violin and cello pegs, all from China, and in good looking woods. They come in several head sizes, generally unspecified, and might be cut down and drilled for mandolin tuner use.  Could possibly even make tuning slightly easier if a bit oversized.  Since I had to cut into these, I found that the wood figure was really there. The tapers are uncut as this is done when fitting.
My new project mando was missing one plastic button until yesterday.  I had a try forming one from aluminum, but lost patience and just put on an electronic knob from the shelves.  Anodized, fluted aluminum with two nice  tiny setscrews at 90 degrees. Fine for now!

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## Forrest Mandolins

Are you still looking for beta testers for your bottoms? I have a 1912 K4 mandocello which was raped of its Handel tuners before I owned it. It is now equipped with Grotohs . I been thinking about making bone buttons. I have a set of Handel tuners on a 1918 F2 so at least I have a pattern to look at.

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## William Smith

I just want to sing Scott's praises as I had a late 1800's early 1900's set of Handel button tuning machines that came off an old bowl back, and the buttons were drilled all the way through and peened over, well it turns out they were square shafts so I sent them to Scott and found an exact set on an old bowl back that was for sale for a very cheap price so I sent his way and he bought that old mandolin, anyway he has the correct tools and took his time and drilled mine out/did some tedious filing out of the glue and metal, he put some time in them so now I have a great old set of Handel buttons that could be used on any tuner set with the square shaft, they will work with any old/new Waverly set or Golden Age mandolin tuners with screw on buttons! He did a fantastic job and some serious patience! Myself not having the correct tools more than likely would've butchered them! My hat is off for the work he did for me, I highly recommend his talents if your in the market for any of his buttons!
 I owe him a serious solid for not ruining my old buttons as we both didn't know how they would turn out as this was his first attempt at doing this work, he did a splendid job! Thanks again.

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## KommammoK

Hi Scott,
I'm interested in some wood buttons to replace the fake pearloids. I recently bought a Eastman MDA814/v. Normally I'm not into relic stuff but this one sounded so nice and I don't have to worry about my first scratch or ding. Unfortunately, Eastman forgot to relic the tuner buttons...
Are you interested in making some?

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