# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  Incoming! New digital mixer

## almeriastrings

Just heard that one of the very first new Soundcraft ui12's is heading my way and should be here Friday... I am looking forward to trying this one out. It is very compact (less than 5 pounds, just over 2Kgs weight), measures only 3.3 X 7 X 12.6" (85 X 177 X 320mm) and has 8 mic inputs, two of which feature high impedance (250k) and Digitech amp modelling. It has a 'stagebox' design and unlike most digital mixers, has no built-in screen - instead it is entirely cross-platform wireless, so can be used with a mix of up to 10 (!) separate devices in any combination... iPad, Android, PC, Mac, Linux... using an HTLM5 web browser interface. There is also a hard-wired Ethernet port. Essentially, this appears to be firmly aimed at the small band/due/trio type market where a combination of 8 inputs and 2 X Aux outputs are usually adequate. There is a larger version with 16 inputs and 4 X Aux outputs too. 

It is not designed to compete feature for feature with larger desks... and some features found on those systems such as multi-track recording, virtual soundchecks and so on are not present on this... but as a super-compact and lightweight, versatile small band/venue mixer it does offer quite a lot: very good EQ, nice (Lexicon) reverbs and delays, compression, and built in DBX AFS2 anti-feedback filters (6 fixed and six adaptive). The (by now) usual options to save setups and scenes are of course all there too, plus real-time spectrum analysis.  There is a good overview of the two available mixers here:




It certainly looks promising... I will be giving it a good workout over the coming week and let you know how it is in practice.

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Astro, 

DataNick

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## oldwave

Look forward to it. I am looking to replace my small sound craft with something and have been waiting for either this or one of the small Behringers.

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## Marc Katz

I have the Line6 M20D and have been using it for a few months. It has 12 pre's and 8 more inputs, multi track recording, built in display/touchscreen but also easy use with ipad/android.. It has incredible control of eq and effects on inputs, feedback suppression, mains and monitors. 

I am really delighted at how much easier it makes things. I no longer need and rack eq or effects. 

I am sure it's going to be exciting as more and more options are released by various companies. Hopefully competition will drive down prices also. 

Marc

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## Toni Schula

Size weight and price look very promising. I am looking forward to your report, Almeriastrings. Especially on the fact of missing of (most) local controls. 
Unfortunately I currently have no real need for one of these today's compact digital mixers. Time was never better to purchase oneof these.

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## almeriastrings

> I have the Line6 M20D and have been using it for a few months. It has 12 pre's and 8 more inputs, multi track recording, built in display/touchscreen but also easy use with ipad/android.. It has incredible control of eq and effects on inputs, feedback suppression, mains and monitors. 
> 
> I am really delighted at how much easier it makes things. I no longer need and rack eq or effects. 
> 
> Marc


Yes. I have that too... it has been our main small mixer for around 12 months and it has performed superbly. You mention Android with the M20D - but to the best of my knowledge the only App is for IOS. There have been many requests to the developers to put out an Android version, but nothing so far....

One of the nice features of the Soundcraft is there is no need for Apps at all... consequently, less risk of O/S "dating" problems and incompatibilities. This new mixer is not quite as sophisticated as the M20D, but there is still plenty there to cover typical small gigs and it is considerably smaller, lighter - and cheaper. Street on the ui12 is likely to be well under $400 once they filter though to the discounters.... which is pretty amazing for what you get! In fact, unimaginable by the standards of just a few years ago...

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## foldedpath

Looking forward to hearing how it works in combat conditions. 

The low cost is obviously due to outsourcing the display interface, and I'm sure this will work well in many applications. I'm not sure it's for me, though. If the application is a compact mixer for bands providing their own PA (which we usually do), I prefer having a mixer that doesn't rely on WiFi and an external controller. I want a fall-back to having all controls on the actual mixer unit if something jams up the the local WiFi, or the external iPad/phone controller goes down for any reason (battery dies, software reboot, or I just drop it on a concrete floor). 

Mixers like the Line6 M20D and the new QSC Touch-Mix-8 and TouchMix-16 are in that category, and make me feel much more confident going out on a gig with a digital mixer (and an analog backup mixer in the car). They're more expensive because the screen is built-in, but I just like the comfort factor in knowing I can go straight to the mixer if I have to.

Maybe I'm being overly cautious? I dunno. I've just had too many experiences where local WiFi is a bit flaky. I know this new Soundcraft mixer includes its own transmitter and the range to a control device will be short, but even digital packet signals can be stepped on by local strong interference. It's probably not helped by the number of military bases in my area that are throwing heavy EM around. I've had problems with wireless instrument units before in this area. We're actually near a "practice" zone where we have Navy EA-18G Growlers (electronic warfare birds) flying around all the time. I don't think they'd target one of our outdoor wedding gigs for a practice run, but 'ya never know...
 :Wink:

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## oldwave

You can use a cable direct to the mixer from your laptop to be sure of the connectivity.

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## foldedpath

> You can use a cable direct to the mixer from your laptop to be sure of the connectivity.


Good point, but then you're still depending on the stability of that laptop. I just feel more confident using a mixer that works all by itself, with an _option_ for external control by WiFi or direct connection to a laptop, and not 100% dependent on it. It's one more potential failure point, compared to a mixer that falls back to standalone operation. 

Just a personal bias, I guess. I tend to be paranoid and conservative when it comes to PA gear that I have to run myself, because I want it to "just work" so I can get on with making music at the gig.

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## mandotim1955

Looking forward to the field reports! I've just done a series of small gigs with the Behringer XR18. Not going back to the big mixer if I can help it. Once you get used to the touch screen interface (on an iPad in my case) it's all pretty intuitive. The XR32 app allows you to tweak EQs, dynamics and effects etc on a single channel, while still displaying the main faders...similar to a 'normal' mixer, in fact. It's also really useful to be able to press a single button and see the mix for a monitor displayed; being able to stand next to the artist at sound check and mix their monitor collaboratively is a real joy, and saves a lot of time.

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## oldwave

I get that .  I have had everything from am early tapco to three generations of digital mixers.  An early adopter of remote control, i used a usb wireless print server to remote my O1v96 from a laptop.  I currently and using an Allen and Heath QU16 with ipad control. Granted I am a professional network designer and understand wireless and wired networking, but I have found the Allen and Heath Ipad  control quite reliable.  Modern macs, pc's , and Linux are quite reliable and I would not hesitate to run this mixer from any of these.  As far as wireless, If you use A/C bands there are so many channels you should not run into any interference at all with a decent router that auto senses channel conflicts.  I am looking for something small that has recallable preamps and eq and is wireless , the only unknown on this is if its N or AC wireless, though an external router could take care of that issue if necessary.  My larger gigs I will continue to use the Allen and Heath which has a very nice workflow.  I always would carry an small second mixer no matter what I do, anything can fail.  
The convenience and weight and cost is a big factor on my needs, I like the QSC, my buddy has one, but its twice as much money for a touch screen.

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## almeriastrings

At the end of the day... _any_ gear can fail. Fortunately, not often at least as far as what I have found over several decades...these digital mixers are very complex pieces of equipment, with both hardware DSP and software involved, so the potential for stuff going wrong is certainly there. Some backup is wise for really critical gigs. I have never experienced a total failure myself, however. I have had (analog mixer) channels go down, and have had the odd "glitch" with digital mixers... but nothing that could not be rebooted out of trouble or worked around. So far. Touch wood.

Regarding a built-in screen, I am in two minds on this. It may be that as long as you have an external port (the ui16 has an HDMI connector) or can connect via Ethernet, using an external screen might be more secure? I don't know... you can soon change an external display, but not an internal one. You can also carry a couple of devices with you... on the M20D I have been very reliant on my (only)  iPad (that mixer also requires an external dongle or router, incidentally), but a cross-platform system means you could run from a (cheaper) Android tab too... I have been reluctant to get any system that required a specific iPad _directly_ connected (the Mackie's, for example) as we all know what can happen when connectors change.... so,  as long as the wireless is good, and there is some kind of hard-wired backup access (Ethernet), I am OK with that. I was nervous initially using wireless in live situations, but have got a lot more confident as time as gone on, as it has all proved very stable and reliable in a wide range of situations.

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## Toni Schula

For me it is more important that a mixer can double as recording device, than a built in screen. This for me justifies some extra money. But doubled price  (+ the external drive)? I am not sure...

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## almeriastrings

The M20D multi-tracks very well indeed to an SD card or USB stick - I normally use an SD card. Fast, easy setup. Individual tracks plus stereo mix.  Good results, certainly for live performance. The Soundcraft Ui12 does not record at all, while the Ui16 only has two track (stereo mix) recording. The QSC Touchmix also multi-tracks nicely. Unfortunately both the M20D and QSC cost a lot more than the Soundcraft UUi models....almost 3X as much.  None of them are a direct replacement for a studio/recording interface, however, due to latency and other issues. To record live shows, though, the M20D and QSC are pretty good.

PS: There is a 'cheat' method of getting a basic, limited multi-track recording from something like the Ui12. You just create some AUX mixes and take feeds from AUX 1, AUX 2 and the L+R headphone output... enough to multi-track a solo performer, or possibly a duo, anyway. You then record these Aux mixes to an external recorder or PC/MAC with an interface. Rough and ready, but this method does work. Not as neat and tidy as an inbuilt true multi-tracker, however.

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## foldedpath

> I was nervous initially using wireless in live situations, but have got a lot more confident as time as gone on, as it has all proved very stable and reliable in a wide range of situations.


What's your local EM environment like? I think that may be a consideration for how dependable these systems are. Gigs in more rural locations aren't swimming in the kind of competing bandwidth traffic you get in the middle of a big city. 

I know these systems with built-in access hubs are operating at very short antenna distances, and basically designed to override anything else. But I still wonder what happens when you have an audience full of people with their phones turned on, and every nearby building with clusters of their own local WiFi. 

Well, I'm not a network expert so maybe I'm just paranoid. I've had some issues with analog wireless instrument systems in the past, and maybe the digital stuff is more stable. I haven't upgraded to a digital wireless instrument system yet... that market is still fluid and I'm waiting to see how the more affordable products shake out.

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## mandroid

It's the Hot new Market , use your tablet and an app instead of  hardware, 
 more channel controls  in a virtual space 
 only limited to the space for the actual Cable connectors ..

I finally replaced my old small but heavy transformer based power-supplied 
 Powered mixer, with one of Carvin's 

and  the  reduction in weight is quite  a bit.  Still all regular knobs and sliders,
 late adopter, I have yet to buy a Mobile Phone.

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## almeriastrings

Very much a preview... but it's here. First impression? *It's TINY.* Really small - but well built, all metal, no plastic casing. I only had a few minutes and my 7" Android tab with me when I first opened up the box, but was able to get a very strong wi-fi signal and stable connection immediately. Controls on screen very responsive. If you have ever seen a Yamaha Stagepass 300... this mixer is about the same size and weight. 



End view with 2X USB ports...function of these is not entirely clear yet. Certainly one is for firmwear updates...the other?



One negative... external PSU. Not a "wall wart" but certainly an external box. The actual connection seems solid and is locking... so not dissimilar from many wireless receivers... but I prefer an internal PSU... doubtless it does the job, though. At least there is an on/off switch.





The size is very obvious here... it really is remarkably small for what it packs in.



Lots of channel dynamics presets available...



And EQ presets...



And reverb presets...



I will give it a real test tomorrow. So far, the wi-fi is very fast and easy to set up.  Less hassle and much quicker than on the M20D. Very strong signal, even through a solid wall. The unit itself may be small, but it feels well built. The connectors all look to be good quality. If it sounds good... this could be near ideal for solo acts, duos and smaller bands in coffee house and small bar type gigs. You'd hardly know you were carrying it.

Foldedpath.. we are often in quite difficult EM environments. Local networks, occasionally other onstage wireless mics,  audience with iPhones and other stuff...not had any issues. So far...

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Beanzy, 

dang

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## oldwave

Cool.  Html5 is the way of the future, I like the os independence.  The only drag is no recording, a big feature loss.  The Behringer's record at least two tracks, and the 699 one mulitracks.  They aren't out yet expect for the the 16 channel version though.

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## Beanzy

Not seen it in the flesh yet but the manual says "The Ui mixer has a built in media player and recorder. The player can be used for backing tracks or for background music in between sets, for example, while the Record facility records the main stereo mix. Playback is via the PLAYBACK L and PLAYBACK R channels - these are normal input channels dedicated to the USB playback function."

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## almeriastrings

The USB media player has a socket on the front panel. There is no mention of the other two USB sockets in the manual, other than to say you can use "any" USB socket to upload firmware updates.... it is also clear that the software and the manual are still undergoing updates so it is possible they may be for a feature that is not ready yet... it would seem odd to include them if they had no real use...

I don't personally think two channel recording is much of an issue one way or the other, as you can easily grab one with a simple cable from the parallel main outs to a standalone hand-held recorder such as a Zoom or Tascam if you want one, just as we all have done for years. A genuine multi-track tapped right after the mic pres is obviously of a different order, however, and is a big advance. Neither of these (currently) have it, but who knows... maybe that's what the 'spare' USB sockets are for? At the market these are aimed at (especially the ui12), and given the price, they obviously did not feel it was a vital feature.

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## mandotim1955

The Behringer XR18 has multitrack recording, with virtually zero latency. I hooked it up to Reaper as a test, after loading the appropriate XR18 ASIO driver. Hooked up straight away, recording is an absolute breeze.

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## Charlieshafer

Great review, but I'm officially at the point of mixer and equipment overload! My new sound system will consist of me sitting at the back of the room and screaming at one musician or another "You, play louder, and you, can you just keep it down!!??"

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## mandroid

A friend's Band has 1 player with a wireless transmitter~ receiver , 
to walk to the FOH and do a Sound check ,  while Playing ,  themselves.

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## almeriastrings

Had a few teething problems... now resolved with latest firmware update. There was some 'digital noise' on some of the mic inputs, but the latest firmware fixed it. It is an extremely easy mixer to use. Easy to name channels, save favourite settings, setups and scenes. Very fast and responsive on a variety of devices - from Ipad and iPad mini, to 7" and 10" Android tabs, and Mac/PC via ethernet. The nice thing is you can use these simultaneously! The reverbs are very good indeed, and the  automatic feedback suppression is very effective. There are some nicely designed FX chain presets you can use as a starting point. Not really my thing, but I plugged a tele in the Digitech 'modelling' inputs and to me it sounded very convincing. A good selection of classic amps and cabinets available. There are some further updates + additions "in the works", too, it seems...

Some nice touches... such as channels auto mute for a few seconds if phantom is turned on (each channel can be on or off). Most impressive, though is the stability and flexibility of the cross-platform wi-fi control... you're no longer tied to platform specific apps.

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## almeriastrings

A few other photos. This really puts the size of this thing into perspective. Next to the well-known EFX-8:





Complete small gig rig.... apart from mic stands + Di's:



300W (RMS) tri-amped, full DSP speaker management system,  8 mic channels, all with multiple forms of EQ, compression, gate, d-esser, reverbs and automatic feedback filters. Whole thing will go into a small car if necessary and still leave space for the instruments. Pretty neat, and a long way from the kit needed just a few years ago to achieve a similar result  :Wink:

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## mandroid

a friend got a Mackie made, tablet dock , has a lot more  virtual channel sliders to match the added XLR inputs,
so  you drag a finger across the screen to use the ones that wont all  fit in the width of that screen .

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## mandotim1955

You can do the slide thing on the Behringer XR18 as well, but it also has the facility to toggle between a view of a few faders or a view of all 16 faders at once. Does the Mackie work cross-platform now? I looked at it when considering going wireless, but it was dedicated to IOS devices, and only accepted one type of docking connector. Big weakness for me.

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## Astro

What about the mackie DL 1608  ?

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## almeriastrings

All of these different mixers have different feature sets, and price points. The DL1608 is IOS only and also requires an external router. It really depends what you need, and also, what you don't need. The only way to know which is most suitable for your application is to compare features very carefully. There is quite a range of them out there now....prices have come down, and feature sets have gone up...

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Astro

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## Charlieshafer

I use a Mackie DL1608 for small road shows where I don't want to carry the big analogue Allen and Heath. In all instances with the Mackie, I'm not using monitors or in a space where effects matter. I just have the Ipad in the slot intended for it, and don't wander around with the extra one that would require a router. If you already have an ipad, it's a very easy system to learn, very flexible with the eq'ing, and levels. The build quality is actually very good, and I have to say, it's very quiet. I was pleasantly surprised at the sound quality. It won't be the weakest link in the sound chain, that's for sure. Price-wise, if you have an ipad, it's well worth it. If you need to buy an ipad for it, then it's not so great a deal that I wouldn't consider a lot of other alternatives. I wouldn't necessarily not get the Mackie, but I'd be shopping. It is a bit bigger than the little thing that started this thread, but still pretty light.

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Astro

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## TonyP

Thanks so much for starting this thread Almeriastrings. I have been watching this whole trend with much interest as this is a potential dream come true for me. And now that I have an iPad as part of my music kit for set lists, practice etc it's perfect to add its function to controlling a PA. I hope to hear more about the Berhinger as it get field tested in places where there's lots of wifi traffic. That's my main concern because it seems if you lose contact with it there. No manual way to control it. But I love the small size and incredible flexibility. Did you say it has a feedback buster in it too?..

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## lukmanohnz

Nice unit and review. It's astounding to see how mobile computing devices are changing designs in so many product categories. I'm waiting for the electric instrument world to start replacing pickup switch, tone and volume pots with a slot that accepts an iPhone...

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## almeriastrings

Tim has the Behringer... I have the Soundcraft. They are the 'same kind of concept' but the implementation is different. Which would suit best would very much depend on your precise needs and preferences. Personally, I like the fact that there are no apps (at all) required with the Soundcraft Ui's - it all runs completely cross-platform on HTML5. From what I can tell so far, it all works rather well, too. I have the smallest version, the Ui12 here (as I already have larger digital desks available) and I specifically wanted something for small gigs that involved the absolute minimum of gear to haul. There is a larger Ui16 version of the same mixer, however. Even that is pretty small...

These do both feature DBX AFS-2 anti-feedback systems that are very effective. I believe the Behringer has something similar, but I have not tested it. Tim can probably tell you more about that unit.

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## Dave Reiner

I know these inexpensive new mixers have short delays that can be applied to a channel, but do any have a delay for running front and rear speakers in a large hall?  I only have to do that once or twice a year, but it would be handy to have it built in...

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## almeriastrings

No. Certainly as far as the two small Soundcraft's are concerned.

That is not really the market for these. 

For that functionality, you are looking at the larger desks. The Presonus Studio Live I sometimes use has it, as does the Behringer X-32 and similar units, but these smaller, compact, mixers are really aimed firmly at much smaller venues. 

If you only need it rarely, I would probably just pick up a stand-alone device, such as a DBX Drive Rack. They are going pretty cheap, used, these days.

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## Dave Reiner

> No. Certainly as far as the two small Soundcraft's are concerned.
> 
> That is not really the market for these. 
> 
> For that functionality, you are looking at the larger desks. The Presonus Studio Live I sometimes use has it, as does the Behringer X-32 and similar units, but these smaller, compact, mixers are really aimed firmly at much smaller venues. 
> 
> If you only need it rarely, I would probably just pick up a stand-alone device, such as a DBX Drive Rack. They are going pretty cheap, used, these days.


Thanks.  I have a Drive Rack PA+ already, but the delay is limited to about 11 feet / 10ms, and seems to be just for alignment of highs and lows.

I could use an outboard Lexicon MX400 with up to 5 sec delay, but was just hoping the new desks might include longer delays.

Dave

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## Toni Schula

> Thanks.  I have a Drive Rack PA+ already, but the delay is limited to about 11 feet / 10ms, and seems to be just for alignment of highs and lows.
> 
> I could use an outboard Lexicon MX400 with up to 5 sec delay, but was just hoping the new desks might include longer delays.
> 
> Dave


QSC touchmix allows up to 100 ms / 34,4 m / 113 ft in the auxes an main output.
AH Qu series allows up to 170 ms.
Behringer X32 series has quite powerful matrix output which offers more than just delay. EDIT: i'm not sure whether you need one of the internal FX processors to add delay at the X32?

As you see, these are bigger formfactor and bigger budget needs than the UIs.

Don't know what the line 6 M20d has to offer, as their app has no demo mode, and this is where I got my wisdom. I am still looking for a need to buy one of these fascinating small digital mixers  :Wink: 
I never was interested in a mixer which totally relies on a tablet, so I never looked at the Mackies.

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## almeriastrings

The M20D has no speaker delay, either.  

I believe the smallest current digital mixer that has it is the QSC Touchmix that Bauzi mentions.

It is a fairly common feature on "big" desks, of course. I imagine the reason that it is not often featured on smaller desks is that the designers just don't envisage them being used in large venues where this is necessary.  Their target market is small-medium clubs, bars, coffee houses and that kind of gig.

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## Charlieshafer

I'm curious, Dave; what size room are you playing in that needs delay? Or are you mostly outdoors where it helps when the rear speakers are so far away?

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## TonyP

> All of these different mixers have different feature sets, and price points. The DL1608 is IOS only and also requires an external router. It really depends what you need, and also, what you don't need. The only way to know which is most suitable for your application is to compare features very carefully. There is quite a range of them out there now....prices have come down, and feature sets have gone up...


Sorry A-strings about the mix up and saying Berhinger when we were talking about Soundcraft. What I really should have said was thanks for just talking about this new breed of digital mixer, period. What I wish was I could get all the basics to understand all the stuff you guys are talking about. 

For instance, the need for an external router. And some don't. The sales people at the big box stores aren't always helpful because I asked him about the wireless and he said they all have to hook into the local wifi. Where I understood that some of the mixers make their own wifi and you just connect with it. Compound this with I know squat about all things Mac and don't even use or carry a cell. But I got an iPad used because it looked like it could be useful. Well the guy in the Mac store told me the port was only a charging port and there was no outside connection to other computers except wifi. My buddy told me yesterday in a discussion about mixers and iPads that was totally not true. So I take it, it's possible to hook the iPad physically to the ui12 in case the wifi goes screwy? Sorry if this stuff was already discussed but my ignorance is not bliss at this point.

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## almeriastrings

OK. Regarding the Ui12. Mine was a very early pre-normal release and there were a couple of issues that arose. There have been two circuit board revisions since then and the ones one sale now have those issues solved. I have a new (latest one) en-route and I'll report on that when it turns up. There is also another firmware update coming.

This is a very nice mixer. I really like the combination of features and compact size.

The Soundcraft Ui12 and Ui16 do not need an external router. They make their own secure wi-fi hotspot. They can also be configured to join an existing network if that is preferred, and they can also connect via cable (ethernet) simultaneously in addition. The internal wi-fi is 2.4GHz. They are very flexible, because you can use an external router too (say a 5GHz unit), but this is not required normally. I found using the mixer alone as a hotspot absolutely fine. No problems at all.

Ethernet to iPad is not officially supported by Apple... however, it can be done... if you want a hardwired backup system, however, probably the easiest/cheapest way is just to use a small laptop with an ethernet port. Just about anything will do. I tested this in an ancient Windows XP one I had lying around. Worked fine. 

The ports in iPads are certainly not just charging ports, however. They are used for various things, from connecting digital mixers and recording interfaces to connecting cameras. The connectors have changed from the iPad 1 through 2, 3, 4 and onwards so you need to bear this in mind if looking at mixers such as the Mackie which uses that port (or the Alesis and Focusrite audio interfaces which also use it).

I have been using other digital mixers (Line 6 M20D) "live" in performance situations for about 12 months now, and never had a connection problem. So now I feel pretty confident with them.

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Charlieshafer

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## TonyP

> This is a very nice mixer. I really like the combination of features and compact size


Thanks for the clarification. There's a lot of knowledge that early adopters take for granted us more cautious types don't get.

There has been a sea change that is afoot that it took reading the bio on Elon Musk for me to even know was possible. They mention that with the Tesla cars you can report a problem and their engineers can access the car while it's charging at night and update its software. Your wipers that were not working right the the day before now work right when you wake up the next morning. It's pretty cool to think that you can own a piece of equipment that is so flexible as to just be fixed with software updates.

You mention that it needs Ethernet connection to control it. So the mystery usb port you mention on the Ui12 is to slow? Even to just do an emergency dumbed down just volume control? 

This whole thing of control is a problem even when you are using a regular analog mixer. Case in point I bought a used cfx12 Mackie mixer wanting some flexibility. I had a big gig coming up and everything in the world conspired against me and I didn't get a chance to get familiar with the mixer. It was pretty much a disaster and I didn't even pull it out again until a year later. Turns out it was not me, the buss assign and mute switches were dirty and intermittent! So coupled with me feeling not so confident I just assumed it was me and not the equipment. 

So the idea of having everything sealed and not subject to the elements like faders and switches appeals. Coupled with a fraction of the size of the rack full of gear this replaces at the fraction of the cost.....I'm sold if it's implemented and supported properly. So as I contemplate trying to fix my switches I'm keeping a close eye on what goes on with your experience with the Ui12. If it turns out the quick fix on the Mackie doesn't work I'm pretty sure it's cheaper to go and get a Ui12 than try and have this board fixed. 

But I also would like some kind of way to know that the new board has been updated like what's going on with yours.

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## almeriastrings

You do not _need_ Ethernet to control it. It is there if you want it, though. The whole thing is 100% controllable via wi-fi: iPad, Android tab, or anything else. I can tell you for sure this is leagues ahead of a Mackie cfx12. No comparison in performance. It is like having a mixer + a whole rack of very good outboard, and the RTA (Real Time Analyzer) is incredibly useful too, once you get used to interpreting it. Together with the various EQ's (including parametric and graphic) it is easy to dial in the sounds you need, and the reverbs are very good also. The 'mystery' USB ports are apparently going to support a mouse, and possibly other things.... not that you'd need that with a touch-screen device. The larger model Ui16 has an HDMI port, though that is not yet fully implemented. I am told it is 'in progress'.

Did I mention there is a 1/4" jack for a momentary foot switch, so you can mute all FX/reverbs during announcements, etc?

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## Charlieshafer

Sweet, Almeria. Things will get really neat when we get wi-fi mics and monitor sends, eliminating cables altogether. This sounds like it's worth the splurge.

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## foldedpath

> Sweet, Almeria. Things will get really neat when we get wi-fi mics and monitor sends, eliminating cables altogether.


That's the dream all right. I would love to have everything wireless. But I'm not buying into that idea until WiFi is as standardized as the 3-prong AC outlet we plug our gear into. And the latency is low enough.

Think about it for a minute. With all the fascination for wireless control of digital mixers, why don't we have a wireless link to powered PA speakers?  There are ways to cobble that together now, but nobody wants to risk a show on it. One glitch and the show goes down.... which isn't the case if you temporarily lose a link from an iPad controlling a digital mixer. The mixer just keeps its current settings and the show goes on. 

There also issues when you start stacking up additive A/D-D/A conversion like digital mics into digital mixers into digital speakers over a wireless connection for everything. How much latency can the performers handle? There is no latency in a wired system.

We're getting closer, but not there yet. There is still a lot to iron out in spectrum allocation and knocking down latency, before it's as solid and dependable as a wired connection.

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## almeriastrings

Yes... I have used the Line 6 system quite a bit (the Stagesource speakers), and although they are powerful and sound really good, the _digital_ connections (AES/EBU cable) are very "fussy" and more prone to problems than a simple analog cable..one ever-so-slightly dirty pin and you don't just get a bit of crackle... you get absolutely nothing. There's also some latency involved... not much, but it is there... and that's over cable... 

No doubt wireless (of some sort) will arrive one day, though....I certainly think in terms of live mixers, analog is on its way out. The advantages of these new tablet-driven devices are huge. I was using my M20D last night, and was just able to sit there in the audience with an iPad and tweak everything just perfectly for 6 different acts. They were all really pleased with the sound... I was pleased because I had no 'snake' to pack up and carry and no rack to haul... and yet I had a full array of really great EQ's and other tools literally at my fingertips and the entire rig took less than a quarter of the setup and breakdown time, and weighed a small fraction of what I would have needed just a few years ago.

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## oldwave

For those contemplating a wireless mixer, perhaps a basic wireless standards over is in order.
The original standard was 802.11 A and B, 2.4 gig for B and I thing 5.8 gigahertz for A which was used for more commercial operations. 2.4 has a longer range than 5.8, but 5.8 is less congested.  Then came 802.11 G which is good for 54 mobs. 2.4 gigahertz and still a limited amount of channels, decent range.  Then came 802.11 N which began to subdivide channels making channel conflicts much less an issue, better speed (bandwidth) and available in 2.4 or 5.8 gigahertz.  Finally the latest standard is 802.11 AC, many channels available, much greater bandwidth and operates in 5 gigahertz bandwidth with multiple streams (8 versus 4 in the N standard .
I am not sure what bands are being used in the Behringer and or the Soundcraft, but I would expect 802.11 N at 2.4 gigahertz to maximize the range.  N is pretty decent and these device may have auto channel sensing for conflicts and move the conflicting channels around, higher end access points like Cisco and HP have that automation.  My self, when I purchase either the Behinger small version or the Soundcarft will carry an AC router with me as a backup for challenging wireless environments, plus a cat 5 cable as a third redundancy.  I have designed mission critical wireless bridging applications of the National Park Service, where I am a senior IT specialist, one link is 55 miles across Lake Superior thats is up 99.99 of the time.  Wireless networking is very mature and reliable and I would not hesitate to use it in audio applications with the proper planning for redundancy.  It is the present and future for audio and its convenience and reliability is robust for these smaller applications that most of us use.  A major venue or touring company I would use either fiber optics or wired ethernet for connectivity, but clubs and smaller shows, wireless will be acceptable for reliability.  Modern computers are also stable and one needs to use common sense using them in audio applications as far as what is one them etc.  I use a dedicated 8 year mac laptop for my audio work and it has very little on it except that.  Hope this is helpful, there is plenty of information on wireless networking on the web, just make sure you pay attention to encryption security!!!!
Anyone who needs a little help you are welcome to PM me.

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## almeriastrings

> Y
> No doubt wireless (of some sort) will arrive one day, though....


I should have checked....  not exactly a concert system... but you can see where this is headed.

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## foldedpath

> I should have checked....  not exactly a concert system... but you can see where this is headed.


Yep, I've heard of people cobbling together wireless instrument transmitters and receivers to do this, for a few years now. It was usually for things like ambient Muzak though, or distributing sound to other rooms outside the performance area, where latency and mission-critical performance wasn't an issue. 

For the sake of those new to this kind of thing, I think it's important to distinguish the degree of mission-critical performance needed for different WiFi applications.

Controlling a mixer module with an iPad doesn't require a rock-solid, ultra low latency connection. If there is a tiny lag between what you see on the screen when moving a fader or FX control, and what actually happens to the audio in the mixer, you might not even notice it. The show won't go down if there is a temporary drop-out either. The mixer just stays in its last configuration. 

The only real mission-critical WiFi devices in most shows are the wireless mics and wireless instrument connections. This is where you need an absolutely solid, uninterruptable signal. It also requires low enough latency not to bother the performers. In-ear monitors are a big help here, because it shortcuts the sound coming out of the main house speakers. But if band isn't using in-ears, any added digital delay caused by a wireless connection to the speakers could be a problem. 

I think latency may be one reason we haven't seen more of these WiFi speaker setups. The other being just plain reliability. It's adding a second mission-critical audio link on top of whatever else you're running, like wireless mics.

As a side note, a few years ago I remember reading about some experiments QSC was running in-house that used a modulated laser beam, for a connection from the desk to powered speakers. This was for big outdoor venues, to avoid cable connection hassles. As I recall, it worked well, but there were some concerns about potential interference from stage smoke effects, rain, and the occasional balloon or UAV camera flying into the beam. I don't know if they or anyone else ever went further with it, but it was an interesting idea. It was totally secure (as long as the beam wasn't interrupted) and impervious to the local RF environment.

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## TonyP

I obviously don't have the credentials to know what the problems are with this, but why if we have a local wifi generated by the mixer like the soundcraft can't we broadcast the final mix so those with a cell and headphones so they can adjust the feed volume etc themselves? Live sound seems like such a losing battle when outside with bunch of folks drinking beer and the people competing (and winning) the volume competition. I always feel so conflicted when somebody from the furthest away comes up and says he can't hear us while I see the folks up front wincing if I turn up. And if we turn up, the crowd just starts yelling to be heard. That would truly be wireless mains.

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## Charlieshafer

I'm only ten minutes or so from Sennheiser, so I'll stop in and try to scam an audition set. They'll think I'm ready for some sort of rubber-room confinement, I'm sure, but it's worth a try. 

I'm thinking anything wi-fi would really only be effective over short distances, as any degradation of the signal would be a problem. But hey, things change. 

Tony's idea for outdoor shows is interesting, and easily do-able right now with the technology from online concert streaming sites like Concert Window. Even without the added people, outdoor sound is very challenging. There's a festival close by in New Haven, and the headliners are usually phenomenal, from years past with Sonny Rollins, Neville Brothers, etc, to this year with Lucinda Williams. The sound company goes to great lengths with a cost-n0-object approach. The problem is the concerts are held on the New Haven green, in the middle of the city, with the sound bouncing off various buildings. If you walk around just a little, instrument can completely disappear from the mix. Move 20 steps to the left, and Sonny goes from load and clear to simply gone. But, that's part of the fun of outdoor venues; the sound isn't perfect, the port a johns smell, and the lines in front of the good food vendors are way too long. And the bugs. And, wait... why do we do this?

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## TonyP

LOL, well obviously there is nothing new or original under the sun Charles. I had no idea something like Concert Window was going on. But it seems way more than just some kind thing people in our immediate audience could log onto just to get an audio feed. The range thing might work just right, keeping it from going further than just your audience. But I would guess it would be the amount of traffic that would be the limiting factor.

What an interesting can 'o worms checking out Concert Window opened. What a way to fight the greedy local venues, just put a show on CW and get proceeds from "ticket" sales. Better sound, you can see the band, cheaper booze prices and don't have to worry about paying for parking or getting a DUI on the way home. So in person gigs could go away?

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## Toni Schula

> Live sound seems like such a losing battle when outside with bunch of folks drinking beer and the people competing (and winning) the volume competition.


Wouldn,t it be great to have some wireless control to tame the audience noise?

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## Charlieshafer

> LOL, well obviously there is nothing new or original under the sun Charles. I had no idea something like Concert Window was going on. But it seems way more than just some kind thing people in our immediate audience could log onto just to get an audio feed. The range thing might work just right, keeping it from going further than just your audience. But I would guess it would be the amount of traffic that would be the limiting factor.
> 
> What an interesting can 'o worms checking out Concert Window opened. What a way to fight the greedy local venues, just put a show on CW and get proceeds from "ticket" sales. Better sound, you can see the band, cheaper booze prices and don't have to worry about paying for parking or getting a DUI on the way home. So in person gigs could go away?


Concert window is interesting, but we certainly don't want them taking business from non-profit venues like ours! The only downside of is that you're at the mercy of the sound that the artists set up. Some are downright horrible, some pretty good. Some artists, like Maeve Gilchrist (harp player) use them for open-format workshops, where she'll have 20 or 30 harpists from around the world asking questions, and she'll give answers and demonstrate. She'll play a piece, then field questions or comments on anything artistic or technical. That's a very cool use of it. She'll just set up in her living room, turn the camera on, and have at it. 

It's also a neat way for a band to audition some new tunes and get immediate feedback. The best use for this, as far as I can tell, is that sort of interactive thing, and not so much just a concert, unless it's someone who simply never travels to your area.

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## TonyP

> Concert window is interesting, but we certainly don't want them taking business from non-profit venues like ours! The only downside of is that you're at the mercy of the sound that the artists set up. Some are downright horrible, some pretty good. Some artists, like Maeve Gilchrist (harp player) use them for open-format workshops, where she'll have 20 or 30 harpists from around the world asking questions, and she'll give answers and demonstrate. She'll play a piece, then field questions or comments on anything artistic or technical. That's a very cool use of it. She'll just set up in her living room, turn the camera on, and have at it. 
> 
> It's also a neat way for a band to audition some new tunes and get immediate feedback. The best use for this, as far as I can tell, is that sort of interactive thing, and not so much just a concert, unless it's someone who simply never travels to your area.


I'm sorry to Almeria for the seeming hijack but this whole digital world is amazing. The Cafe has been an an entry into so much that I would never found or come into contact with. And things are changing quicker and quicker.

 I thought I was so far into the hi tech when I got the Driverack 260 which was one rack space unit that replaced a whole rack of gear. And now these digital mixers are not only a 1/4 the size of the mixer it replaces plus it has almost as much function as that hi tech box I was so enamoured of for 1/4 the cost. Now it's all about knowing enough to try and  understand enough to not buy another piece of equipment that's not what I thought it was or that's going to get left in the dustbin and not supported in the mad rush forward of newer smaller better cheaper.

And these things seem to be all this potential that just needs to be implemented. I wish we had some kind of non profit venue that we locals could be part of. But around here it's the stage before you pay to play a bar like it is in Los Angeles. So being able afford the equipment much less the instruments is pretty much a losing proposition. You never seem to be able to predict how the tech is going to change things for the good or bad.

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## almeriastrings

> And these things seem to be all this potential that just needs to be implemented. I wish we had some kind of non profit venue that we locals could be part of.


All it takes is someone to start one.... and once you do, all kinds of things can happen. It gains its own momentum. We live in place where bluegrass and country/folk music is rare as hens teeth, it is all pop music via 'tribute' acts, traditional Spanish music, and karaoke.... Spanish traditional music is great, of course... but the karaoke! The karaoke!  :Crying:  Anyway, there was no venue or club for the stuff we play so we started one. It has been going 5 years now. We were not even sure there was an audience out there, but we did not just rely on performances, we also offered workshops, lessons, demonstrations, advice and support - helping people to make music. I see Charlie is involved in similar things.  We gradually built up a "following" and more people became involved as "regulars". Some of these people knew very little about traditional music  and did not even recognise a mandolin or dulcimer when they first saw them... but kind of liked what they heard... and became interested. We have seen some of those people go from total beginner level to being able to put on a solo performance to a good standard! That is very rewarding for all concerned. We also have a really great regular audience, very supportive and welcoming. We now have people of all backgrounds and nationalities involved....UK, US, Spain, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, and we have had guests from as far afield as Australia (Thanks, Nick!), but it all started from absolutely nothing, in an area where nothing like it had ever happened before. It is not huge in numbers, but it works, and we get to take part in quite large multi-cultural events too, and on radio shows, which gives a lot more exposure. We try to make it an enjoyable, participatory learning experience, not just a "show". We will never be "commercial", but then, we don't want to be. I would be pretty unhappy at trying to be "commercial" these days, I think.... you have to get a bit creative, I believe, and use technology where it suits to make things happen in a way that's consistent with what you want to do. For all the problems the "digital revolution" has caused (piracy, etc.) it has also opened up new ways of doing things, such as "Concert Window"... and Youtube... and back to mixers, you can now do an amazing amount with these new devices which are literally the size of a shoe-box, yet pack the functionality of something that just a few years ago would fill a small truck.

I think the replacement Ui12 should arrive today. I'll report back once I've given it a try. We're still waiting for the new firmware. There are a few bugs with regard to gain staging... and FX sends on groups. I know they are being worked on. A new version of the user manual has also appeared (V2.6) and a the 'official' tuition videos are now online, and a close look shows they already have a more recent firmware than the one on public release.

----------

Charlieshafer

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## TonyP

+1 on what you said. 

Where we live now is a total tourist economy. But like you mentioned there are a LOT of people who will show up for good acoustic music. And what I noticed is now it's through the phone. The other nite we were told there is usually around 15 to 20 people. Well by the time we got rolling into the middle of the first set there was well over 100 and this is just a little outside cafe with a small and goofy seating area. With our four piece jammed into an area that would be ok for a duo. It was all people calling and texting their friends. And on a Monday night. So yeah, it's all about finding the right venue and working it enough to keep interest but not enough to kill it. And having good sound is essential.

I look forward to seeing how the teething problems get ironed out and how responsive the co's are to us little guys in the trenches.

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## Toni Schula

I just played around with the ui demo version at the soundcraft web page. I am really impressed how usable this is even on a small smartphone screen. Not that I don't prefer the comfort of a larger tablet or computer screen. But the smartphone version is absolutely useable. The phone definitely can be a backup should the tablet be broken. This eases my concern about the missing local controls.

The only missing thing on my wishlist is multitrack recording...

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## TonyP

> The only missing thing on my wishlist is multitrack recording...


+1 with two big thumbs up!

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## foldedpath

> Quote Originally Posted by Bauzl
> The only missing thing on my wishlist is multitrack recording...
> 			
> 		
> 
> +1 with two big thumbs up!


Careful what you wish for.  :Smile: 

Multitrack recording on these newfangled digital mixers can be a blessing or a curse, depending on what your needs are. If you really, seriously, intend to do a polished multitrack mixdown of a show for promotional reasons like YouTube audio or a live CD, it can be a blessing. These digital mixers -- especially the ones that have no-hassle internal multitrack recording -- are _amazing_ for that.

If you use it to record every gig and your band mates expect polished mixdowns from all those separate files on every single gig, good or bad.... "_hey, can you raise the sound of my bass_?... that's something else entirely.

Mixdown from multitrack, and final mastering for the intended use, is a ton of work. Seriously, a _ton of work_ after a performance. If your band mates just want a recording of the gig, you'd be better off with a straight 2-track mains capture of the mixer, with no mixdown. If you really do need a full pre-fader, pre-EQ, and pre-FX multitrack capture, then go for it. Just realize what's involved, once you have all those separate .WAV files on your computer.
 :Wink:

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## almeriastrings

+ 1 on that. 

It really is *a lot* of work. We have it on our M20D, and have used it a few times, but I would not use it routinely to record _all_ live shows, because of the editing time involved. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 2-track recording for general archive or reference purposes. That is, after all, how virtually all live shows were recorded (including for broadcast and CD release) until fairly recently. Just because it is there does not mean it has to be used for everything...

It is also the case that if you are that serious about getting pristine, no-compromise multi-track recordings for some major project, there are better ways to do it than from a relatively low cost live sound mixer. 

The new Ui12 turned up on Tuesday and has been on test since. No problems at all with this one. Very quiet preamps, everything working fine. It does seem that some defective units have got out there, however, with these causing some rather negative reviews! 

I have been in contact with various people involved and these are not normal, and not what you should expect. If you do get one with too much preamp noise, I would suggest returning it. It has a fault.  It has not been disclosed what the problem actually is/was, but there was definitely something wrong with some of the early ones off the production line. Personally, I suspect an internal power regulation issue + possibly a faulty batch of chips. The latest ones seem free of such issues. Mine certainly sounds very nice indeed and has no such problems. Excellent little mixer, and the user interface is very good indeed (much nicer, IMHO, than that on the Behringer X-series).

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## TonyP

> Careful what you wish for. 
> 
> Multitrack recording on these newfangled digital mixers can be a blessing or a curse, depending on what your needs are. If you really, seriously, intend to do a polished multitrack mixdown of a show for promotional reasons like YouTube audio or a live CD, it can be a blessing. These digital mixers -- especially the ones that have no-hassle internal multitrack recording -- are _amazing_ for that.
> 
> If you use it to record every gig and your band mates expect polished mixdowns from all those separate files on every single gig, good or bad.... "_hey, can you raise the sound of my bass_?... that's something else entirely.
> 
> Mixdown from multitrack, and final mastering for the intended use, is a ton of work. Seriously, a _ton of work_ after a performance. If your band mates just want a recording of the gig, you'd be better off with a straight 2-track mains capture of the mixer, with no mixdown. If you really do need a full pre-fader, pre-EQ, and pre-FX multitrack capture, then go for it. Just realize what's involved, once you have all those separate .WAV files on your computer.


Of course you guys are totally correct. Mix down and editing in the best conditions is a HUGE time suck. Trying polish up live tracks makes me cringe. But it would be nice to be able to record a practice. Funny you should mention bass FP because we've been using my mini system and been running the bass thru her amp instead of the mains, so the bass would not be in the mix at all.

Good info on the "new" Ui. So how to get the store to make sure it's one of the updated Ui's? There should be some kind of batch# or serials or something you can have them check before you buy. This is the very reason I don't buy early. It's hard enough learning a new piece of gear like this, much less dealing with problems. Keep us posted please.

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## Toni Schula

> Of course you guys are totally correct. Mix down and editing in the best conditions is a HUGE time suck. Trying polish up live tracks makes me cringe. But it would be nice to be able to record a practice.


Yeah, I have gone this path as well. It took me 200+ hours to edit and mix a gig we recorded with the venue's multitrack recorder. Now that I have read a great book about mixing (Masterclass Sound Design by Burhard Heise, written in German) I am sure I could do it in only 100+ hours  :Wink: 
Still having multitrack recording would make the UI more versatile. Maybe also the virtual sound check might also be helpful. I have absolutely no experience with that.

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## TonyP

Yup, virtual sound check sounds like a good idea, and like you have never tried it. If nothing else it sounds like a good starting point.

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## almeriastrings

Thought I would just bring you an update on this, after a few gigs with it.

*Connectivity*

No problems at all. Working fine on iPads and Android (Galaxy) tabs, also tested out the ethernet and very straightforward there too. It is nice to have the iPad as main mix, and a Galaxy showing a separate 'page' at the same time! Also nice to have more than one device that works (just in case). Some people _have_ reported some connectivity issues, but ours has been 100% solid. 

*User interface*

It really is very easy and straightforward compared to some digital desks. Actually, the nicest GUI on a live mixer I have seen so far. Everything is very clear, and if you know analog desks (and outboard) it makes sense very quickly. I rarely had to consult the manual.

*Effects*

The FX are really outstanding for a mixer in this price range. The reverbs in particular are highly customizable (easy, too), and sound great. Really good. I would say better than on the A&H Zed's. The compressor too is excellent, and the EQ is very flexible and precise. Just nice to use, and it all sounds great. Not as complex or sophisticated as on some desks (including our M20D), but absolutely adequate for typical small venues (no multiband compression, or dynamic EQ, for example - but these are specialist tools that 99% of the time you don't need anyway in small venues). All the basics (and them some) are there, and they are easy to use and work really well.
*
Mic preamps*

These are not the very quietest mic pres on the planet, admittedly.  With very low input level sources, they can struggle. There is (allegedly) an firmware update coming soon that is said to make a difference here. That said, I just used high output mics (Rode M2's, Shure SM94's) and found them more than quiet enough. No intrusive hiss, and very warm and 'present' sounding. I would not give them 5 stars, but in a live setting, they are certainly adequate. I guess you have to look at this in the context of the price. You do get 8 of them on the Ui12 and 12 of them on the Ui16. I'm happy to use them for any kind of live show (but won't be selling my Audient and UA stuff in the studio, yet!).
*
Shows and Snapshots*

This is where having an easy to use digital desk wins through. In one section of our own performance my wife does a solo spot with fingerstyle, rather than flatpicked, guitar. She uses her Martin OM42 Marquis via a Fishman Aura box DI'd to the console. Changing from flatpick (when we're playing as a due) to fingerstyle needs some fairly drastic level changes, and I also like to add a touch of compression for fingerstyle guitar. On an analog system this can get tricky, but with a digital desk, you just set it up in advance, save the two 'options' (flatpick vs. fingerstyle) as two different snapshots, then simply switch between them with a couple of taps on the iPad. The different levels, any EQ changes, and compression settings all "move across" instantly.... and when the solo spot is finished, just recall the "duo" setting, and absolutely everything is back to where it was, perfectly. This is a huge time saver and greatly reduces the changes of mistakes (a knob or button wrong, etc.)

*Two 'spare' inputs*

In addition to the 8 mic/line XLR/jacks there are two RCA inputs. These tend to be ignored, but they are useful. I tested them with various wireless mics and they worked very well there. Each channel can be dealt with independently, they are not a fixed 'stereo' format. Following on from Don's earlier thread on dulcimers, I also decided to try the same idea... I ran a pair of Behringer ADA121 piezo preamps into the RCA's using mono jack-RCA cables, and set one for 'passive' transducers and the other with the 'pad' engaged for active transducers. We then used those for guest performers to DI guitars into. It gained two extra channels leaving the full 8 'main' inputs untouched. You can apply the same EQ, reverb, compression (etc) presets and other settings to the RCA's as you can to the XLR/Jack inputs, so this is really very useful.

So far, so good.... have some larger gigs (outdoors) coming up soon, and I will give it a more extensive try-out then.

----------

Astro, 

dang, 

Toni Schula

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## TonyP

Thanks so much for the detailed review. The snapshots, once understood would be so handy. I keep seeing where there are gig with other bands and this would very handy for such.

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## almeriastrings

It is_ very_ useful. You only realize how useful once you start using it. I've been "100% digital" for a while now, and would not want to go back. In fact, all my analog mixers went to Ebay.....

Right now I have the M20D and the Ui12, which covers me for medium to small shows just fine. For anything larger I can borrow a 32 channel Soundcraft Si 3 Expression or an A&H Qu32. 

With the little Ui12, it is still kind of hard to get your head around the fact that although not much bigger than a shoe box, it is like having a rack of 12X compressors, 12X graphic EQ's, 12X Parametric EQ's, 12X noise gates, good reverbs, plus an anti-feedback system. Another benefit of digital mixers that might not be instantly obvious, is that you really do not need much in the way of "fancy" acoustic instrument preamps. Just something with a suitably high input impedance to act as a basic buffer/DI. The range of EQ's you have available on these desks (with real-time analysis!) is so good that all of the 'tweaking' you would previously have had to do on a 'fancy' pedal are already there - built in. As long as you have a good high impedance input with good headroom, that is pretty much all you need. Everything else is taken care of within the console. Parametric EQ, phase reverse, anti-feedback, etc. When you consider a sophisticated acoustic preamp/DI can in itself run to $250-500, this is really something, as you can have any many of them as you have channels available in a digital desk. You just need a very simple buffer in front - something like the Radial Stagebug SB-4 that has a 5M input impedance, or a (in the EU) the little Orchid Micro-DI boxes (1M input impedance) which are only 25GBP each... and sound superb.

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## TonyP

Ok, I'm new to using DI's, and the folks in this band have a range of stuff while I'm still using a mic for my mandolin. The guitar player uses a PU  through a DI, the dobro uses a mini mic, and the bass player uses some kind of PU thru her bass amp. But when we use the bigger speakers I would like to do away with the bass amp. So the bass is the only one that's an unknown.

I'm sold on this, and am seriously contemplating the Ui12. I would probably order from Sweetwater, BUT my main concern is how do I make sure the unit they have in stock is the latest updated version and not one that needs to be sent back to have the hardware updated.

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## almeriastrings

As far as I am aware, only a small number of very early ones with a serial number beginning 5020 had any possibility of a hardware problem affecting the power regulation. Those beginning 5030 and above had that fixed. The firmware is easy to update yourself as new versions are released.

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## TonyP

I took Bauzl's cue and went to the Soundcraft site and played with the demo of the control and I have to say what a good idea! I'm a little confused partly because I'm not used to digital boards, but I wonder if what I saw was actually for the ui16?

It also begs the question what do you use for powering the two mini di's you mentioned when they say they run off phantom when you have them going into the RCA's? Also are they counting the MP3 player as 2 ch.? I'm missing something....you've got the 4 xlr, 4 combo's, the two RCA...isn't that just 10 ch?

Is there a page to see what the AFS is doing or the control?

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## almeriastrings

The control (and demo) software is the same for the Ui16 and the Ui12. 

If using the two RCA's, I use self powered (battery operated) preamps/DI's - either the Behringer AD121's (which despite costing only $30 a piece are really pretty decent) or a Headway EDB-2 and a Studiospares Preamp/Di (european availability only). If going into one of the XLR's, I can also use the mini-DI's that require +48v.

Yes, in the total channel count the MP3 player is included. Personally, I don't need or use that - but it is there.

For 'Live' sound the UI12 has 10 'useful' channels, and the Ui16 has 14 (12 mic/line XLR's + 2 RCA Line).

Unfortunately, you cannot test the AFS on the demo as you need an active, fully 'live' system for that to work. It does work very well, however.

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## Charlieshafer

Hey Almeria, would you think that using a separate mic pre bank, and then not having to stress the Soundcrafts mic pres would keep things quieter?

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## almeriastrings

You could... but honestly, in  the kind of live context where these desks are likely to be used I doubt you'd need to. If you wanted whisper-quiet, very high gain pres, I'd frankly be looking at a much higher end unit than one of these in the first place. The M20D is very good indeed in that respect, as are some of the other 2-3K options. An easier solution is just to use reasonably high output mics in the first place, either something that has similar output voltages to the Beta dynamics, or just about any condenser. If you keep the input gain (trim) to around +29db or less, with the channels and masters around unity, it is fine. If you are trying to use an SM7b (for example) or some other really, really low output mic where you are having to crank the input gain to +40db or more, then yes, it would be a definite issue. I tried an SM7b on there, and it was not good, but then, they are a very demanding mic in terms of preamps and seem happiest with something that can deliver +50db or more with ultra low noise levels (I normally run those through an Audient ASP880, which is perfect). A regular Beta 57/58 is fine, as are AKG D5's and EV967's, and every condenser I have tried so far has also been absolutely fine (most needing around +25db on the input side to produce good levels on the channels).

----------

Charlieshafer

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## oldwave

If you would want to run a low level mic like that you could us a cloud lifter , works well with ribbon miss and low output dynamics

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## TonyP

Sorry I wasn't clear I guess. There was mention about turning on the AFS and I was looking for that page.....guess I should look through the manual instead of asking silly questions.

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## almeriastrings

The AFS in the demos is not operative. It only works on the hardware unit. You can turn it on, but you won't see any effect. 

Re: Cloudlifter, just gave mine a try to see what happened. Major hum and hiss.... not sure why just yet, I need to try a few things such as separate phantom power and look at the grounding. The Cloudlifer itself is fine, as I used it with a ribbon mic and field recorder just a couple of weeks ago. Investigating further.

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## Charlieshafer

Aaaand... we're off to the races. Almeria's response to me got me remembering why I went with good equipment in the first place. The more the extra stuff you need to plug in, the more the problems with physical connections, extra cords, lack of compatibility, impedance mis-matches and so on. I think his comment on using this for the simple shows and a better board for the more complicated shows makes perfect sense. Keep the microphones simple here, and it's a fantastic unit.

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## oldwave

I just ordered a x-air 12 which arrives today for my low count small gigs, not HTML 5 but cross platform for mac linux, windows, ios and android.   only 4 mic pres but 8 more line level so i can plug in a couple of pres ona one rack shelf (summit audio and grace designs) if I need a couple of more mics.  This is my duo rig though, Ill be trying it out on the 18th with an ultralight HK audio Nano 600 system that I really like.

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## almeriastrings

I would be very interested to hear your impressions of that, John, once you have given it a good try out. They have recently hit the streets over here, too. Exceptional value and super compact. 

I can see *a lot* of analog mixers (and live rack gear, graphic and parametric EQ's, compressors, gates, etc.) hitting Ebay as people wake up to just what an amazing box of tricks these things really are, and just how capable they are in that tiny little package....

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## oldwave

Will do. I have had it on the bench figuring out the routing, effects bus, and gain structure. Saturday is a small duo outside playing civil war music with 4 mins, should be ideal low stress and great acoustics.  So far my favorite feature is the overlay 31 band analyzer that shows real till frequencies, making it easy to identify hot spots, no feedback destroyer but I probably don't need that much anymore (I have a stand alone I could insert if need be).  Since I got the small one no multitrack recording but it will do stereo wave recording which saves me carry a standalone recorder to plug in etc.  So far the apps have all been great Ive tried the Linux, the Mac and the iPad app, not the Windows. Ill carry my laptop with a cable for backup but am going to try the built in router first.  It seems very well made and no wall wart, So far Im impressed.

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## TonyP

Ooooo, so I wish you guys could do " shoot out". Out of curiosity John why did you go with the x air?

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## oldwave

The price and light weight for my minimal gigs. Plus it had 8 line ins and I have outboard mic pres if need a few more.  I love sound craftmic pres (I have the efx8) but I was looking for small light and cheap for this acquisition.  So far it looks and sounds great.  More to follow.

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## mandotim1955

I've been using the Behringer X-Air XR18 for three months now, at around 15 gigs with my band the Slippery Hill Boys, and three or four gigs with other bands. The mixer is a stage box format, with built in wireless and control via apps on most platforms (including Windows, IOS, Android and more). I run the mixer from an iPad mounted on my mic stand when gigging with the band, and 'out front' when running sound for others. So far, impressions have been very favourable, and no problems encountered at all. The apps are intuitive (especially if you are used to the workflow on digital desks) and operating the desk while playing is straighforward once the basic sound is dialled in. One thing I would like is mute groups on the IOS app, but that will probably be in the next update. A big advantage is at sound check time; I use a wireless setup on my mandolin, so I can stand out front and play along, making adjustments to the sound on the iPad. I can also stand next to the players and adjust their monitor mix with them. (The ability to call up the monitor mix on faders at the touch of a button is great for this). Another useful feature is the ability to save 'scenes' in the memory. We have regular gigs at a couple of 'awkward' venues, and we save a lot of setup time by simply recalling a scene from a previous gig at the venue. 
The effects rack is outstanding, with a wide range of really high-end studio and live effects in digitally modelled form. Compressors work beautifully, and you can opt for 'basic' or 'advanced' modes of operation. The parametric EQs on every channel (including monitors and mains) are easy to use, and the touchscreen operation allows easy adjustment of gain, frequency and Q. The overlaid Real Time Analyser makes it a breeze to notch out feedback; I keep one EQ band as a notch on each channel, with a very narrow Q. One small point; no need for an expensive flight case. It fits in a foam-lined plastic toolbox from the local B&Q (like Home Depot for USA readers!). 
Overall; well, I have two digital mixers sitting at home. One is used in the studio, and the other will probably be sold soon. I've already sold my analogue mixers, and almost all of my analogue effects, EQs and compressors. Not going back, I love this thing. It sounds great, and makes gigging so much easier.

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## oldwave

Hard to beat that review. Curious which digital mixers do yo have at home ? I'm keeping my o1v96 for recording.

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## mandotim1955

Hi Oldwave! I suppose I have three digital mixers really; a Bose Tonematch for use with the L1 column, a Behringer X32 and a Behringer X32 Compact. I had an old Yamaha O2R for a while, but the X32 was so much better that I sold it. The workflow on the X32 is just so easy and intuitive, with (usually) at least two or three options about how you organise the work. I've used Soundcraft, Allen and Heath, Presonus, Midas,Mackie and Digico digital desks as well; for the money, the X32 is the best by miles, if not the ultimate in terms of absolute quality...that would be Digico, at ten times the price. The X32s have been utterly reliable in use, and sound great. That said, my back is getting older and more creaky, hence the switch to the XR18 for most gigs!

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## oldwave

I ended up with the Allen and Heath QU16 which I like a lot , but would have bought x-air 18 had it been out.  At 63 light is the dominating factor for me now and the QU is pretty light but the case I have it in is not.  I like its work flow and its mic pres.  The o1v96 I've had for years and will be doing duty as a control surface and extra inputs for my recordings at home. I still like that desk for its flexibility and have used it so many years the workflow doesn't bother me, but it is complex.  Tomorrow I use the x-air 12 on a gig, I'm sure its going to work fine.  I see what you say about the mute groups missing on the ipad app but the channel count is low for these small gigs and I wont really need it.  Ill use the Linux laptop as a backup for the ipad if the wireless gives me any crap, but I know how to change channels if need be and use the wire as the last resort.  

Should be fun, this gig  is with a HK Nano 300 and the x-air 12 and 4 mics.  One trip and a ten minute setup.

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## almeriastrings

10 minute setup is good.

10 minute breakdown at the end of the gig is even better  :Laughing: 

Years ago, we had a regular gig on the 2nd floor of a venue, and this was well before digital mixers and class-D amps were widely available. It was a real back breaker. I shall never forget those stairs.

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## oldwave

Ah I have one of those stories. Late 1970's playing in a second floor bar all the gear plus a small studio acoustic piano up 20 stairs. We were pretty cool though the white Hyland PA system matched our white vinyl shoes!

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## almeriastrings

One thought in particular with all of these mixers - especially those 100% reliant on wi-fi or other devices - is to have a _fast, simple and reliable_ little backup mixer with you at all times. It does not have to be too fancy, it just has to sound decent and you have to be able to switch over to it and have it up and running *FAST.* Small and light in weight also helps. You can leave it in the truck or car, but if the worst happens, at least you can keep going. There is definitely more to go wrong on these things than with a hardware mixer.... you have firmware, software, wi-fi, ethernet... all kinds of inter-dependencies. They are great when they are working right, but 'glitches' can happen, and diagnosing/fixing them in the middle of a gig can be a nightmare. A basic, solid backup plan is a 'must'.

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## mandotim1955

Good point, Almeriastrings. I've been thinking about this for a while. I think my solution for important gigs might well be to carry a second XR18, a CAT5 cable and a laptop. I currently carry an Apple external router in the case with the XR18, in case I need to switch to 5GHz wifi.The only thing I will need to buy is the second XR18, and I have uses for that in other settings as well. I thought about keeping one of the analogue desks, and I have a very small one left for other jobs, but I would prefer to stay digital if I can. Last resort with the band is to revert to single-mic style.

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## oldwave

The gig was great. We were outside under a150 year old beech tree. The x-air was flawless all I had to do was notch out a low frequency feed back identified immediately with the built in analyzer. The two high impedance inputs worked well with a guitar pickup and the k&k mandolin twin, no preamp necessary, they were warm and had plenty of gain, though the guitar magnetic pickup need the gain all the way up. A touch of reverb on everything. The Hk Audio equipment continues to impress me for clarity, light weight and high fidelity. I own both the Nano 300 and the Nano 600. I don't even breakout the jbl prx 700 series 10's anymore these things sound so good. I'll give them to my son.  I have found a great combination and it fits in the trunk of my Honda Civic. A Efx 8 was left in the trunk for backup. I also will carry a 5 ghz Apple router for backup in more difficult rf environments.  I need to make a custom layer in the iPad app so all the channels are close to each other was the only operational clumsiness .  Sonically it was clear and warm.  I used an AT 4054 for fiddle and vocals , a sm57 for banjo and a AT he61 dynamic for the other vocal.  The speakers were spread far apart and we needed no monitors for this enironment. 15 minutes up and down. I'd buy the x-air 18 in a minute if I didn't have the qu16.

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mandotim1955

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## almeriastrings

Excellent. I totally get the attraction of small size + low weight too these days, and anything that gets rid of "bird's nests" of cables is another big plus in my book. What particularly interests me is the audio performance differences between the X Air 12/16 and the Soundcraft Ui12/16. My friends at the distributors are sending me an XR12 over so I can A/B them side by side in detail. It seems to me there are pros and cons for both units. I like the internal PSU on the XR12. From playing with the demo App on IOS and Android, though, I think the GUI on the Soundcraft is much cleaner and more intuitive, though both are doubtless perfectly fine once you get used to them. The 4X mic pres on the XR12 are fine if that's all you need, and the 'extra' two hi-Z inputs are very useful. Meantime on the Soundcraft you get 8 full mic pres - and there is only around $100 difference in price. The Soundcraft has a very good AFS function... the XR12 lacks this, but conversely, the XR12 does have two track stereo record to USB stick, while the Soundcraft is playback only.  You could say you win some, you lose some...

Incidentally, if you are using a mixer (any) that does *not* have AFS, dragging a rack mount unit around to add it is not the only option. Keep watching Ebay for a used SABINE FBX SOLO. There were two versions, one mic level and one line level. These are a very small box, and work really well. They were around $400 each originally... but like a lot of such stuff, are now no longer being built and you can find them on fleabay for basically pocket change if you get lucky.  I had a few of them at one time, and sold them off gradually... but when I saw what they were going for now, I hung onto the last pair... glad I did, because they still have their uses with these newer mixers that lack the facility.

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## oldwave

I still have a dbx AFS from a few years back but rarely use it. It's an option for any very challenging rooms though.  I went with the x-air 12 for cost and its use for duo trio work. I have couple of small mic pres to expand or even a 4 channel hybrid tube pre from the 90's if need be. But at that point I'd just use the qu 16. I was tempted by the Soundcraft, but decided on price for this one.  My pre from the 90's is a Tlaudio that still sounds pretty good. I use to use it on vocals when I recorded shows for the Rock Hall.  The 8 pre version of the x-air is out now though I'd like to see it at 399 instead of 499.  Good stuff all of this gear.  Be interested in your a/b of the x-air 12.

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## TonyP

> Be interested in your a/b of the x-air 12.


+1 

I aspire to be an audio "suspenders and belt" kinda guy. That's why I'm still leaning towards the Soundcraft because of the built in afx and especially the 8 pre's. I only have a cursory idea of how to use RTA because of having an old version of SmaartLive before I got dbx 260. So I have a dim idea of the idea of using the RTA to tweek the hot spots with a 31bnd graphic.....but I'm totally lost when Berhinger mentions something about I think 100 section RTA. does this mean it a 100band graphic? Or just the RTA can divide up that small? Gotta know there's a BUNCH of us folks who are not as savvy as you guys about this alphabet soup of tech lingo and how it applies to getting through a gig.

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## mandotim1955

Hi Tony.The X-air range from Behringer do have a 100 section Real Time Analyser on each channel, which allows you to see the hot spots. You can then use a 31-band built in graphic as an insert on the channel  if you like, but I find it easier and more convenient to use the built in 4 band parametric EQ for this job (6-band on the main outputs). Really easy and intuitive to use on a touch screen (I use an iPad Air) The Behringer also has a great range of built in effects, and some really cool and simple to use compressors. You're in the same position as most of us; the game is changing so fast at the moment with the onset of the digital sound systems that we are all having to re-learn a lot of what we knew.

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## TonyP

Thanks Tim. I have just enough experience to be dangerous  :Smile:  So I'm reading what you guys say about these different systems. I was talking to my good buddy who does sound for a living and he was telling me that the "big leagues" are all treating the Berhinger X's as throw always. They use them for a year and get rid of them because there's just no way they build to road standard for the cheap. Not trying to diss anybody's gear just relaying what a guy who rubs shoulders with the big boys told him.

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## almeriastrings

I am not a huge fan of Behringer (or some of their business methods), but I do suspect there is a hint of prejudice in those kind of perspectives on what they are doing now. I would even go so far as to say, based on some of what they did and gear they put out in the past, I can understand why that might be. However.... the world has changed. Not everyone has caught up.

One big change is in analog to digital, obviously - and the fact is provided you specify it right, and have good QC, you can now build just about anything based on digital electronics anywhere.  Look at Midas. You can still buy their high end consoles. An XL8 will set you back around $70K.... the company is owned by Behringer, however.....

Enough of their stuff is out there that we do now have a pretty good idea on failure/return rates, and according to people I know in the business of supplying a wide range of such equipment, their failure rates are now lower than average. They also off a full 3 year warranty, including for professional use. I have been very critical of some Behringer stuff in the past (with justification, I believe!) but they do seem to have changed their spots somewhat, offering some seriously good stuff with excellent customer support lately.

One reason their pricing is so good is because they produce huge volumes in very modern, automated plants owned by themselves (not subcontracted out). So, while certainly not a total convert, I do feel they deserve a bit of break as they are making real efforts to improve their products (and reputation). I have used an X32 myself, and have to say, it is a most impressive desk and appeared to be built very well indeed.

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## almeriastrings

> The two high impedance inputs worked well with a guitar pickup and the k&k mandolin twin, no preamp necessary, they were warm and had plenty of gain, though the guitar magnetic pickup need the gain all the way up.


It does not seem to say anywhere in the published specs, but those are both said by Behringer tech people to be 1M impedance inputs, which is useful. As long as you are not using low output passive transducers with long cable runs, those would probably do away with the need for extra preamps/DI boxes for small gigs where you are close to the box. They are 250K on the Soundcraft Ui12 and Ui16.

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## Toni Schula

> Look at Midas. You can still buy their high end consoles. An XL8 will set you back around $70K.... the company is owned by Behringer, however.....


Or you can buy their Midas M32 for 5390 , which has basically the same internals as the X32, which you can get for 2950 . There even aren't any Swarovsky crystalls on the M32. I do not need to understand everything.

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## TonyP

My buddy works for a sound co. that's a small fry here. And that means they buy lower end stuff and spend a lot of time fixing it on the off season. As far as I know they don't have any Midas or Berhinger, mostly Yamaha for the bigger stuff and Mackie for stuff that doesn't matter as much. That's where I got lots of horror stories about trying to fix Mackie boards. Everything from bad switches(like what I think is wrong with my cfx12) to ic's etc that were not soldered properly and real tough to service because this was never engineered to be serviced. So my impression is everything that is not hi end is throw away. The good thing and the bad thing about these little digital mixers is there's not a bunch of switches and sliders that are semi exposed to the elements and really complicate repair. But the bad is I wonder if they are like a cast brick inside, or? Personally I've never had much go wrong until this debacle with the cfx12 but finding out that several of the mute and assign buttons have gone south and because they are "sealed" it's pretty much a nightmare to get some DeOxit in there to get them to function again has made me decide it's time to bale on this whole analog/mechanical junk and jump to digital. I've also never gotten much help from trying to get stuff fixed from local techs so have always treated most of what I own as throwaway if I can't fix it. Just to replace a pot or switch can cost you more than the stuff is worth very quickly.

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## Toni Schula

My philosophy is, that I try to fix it just before I would throw it away. So to say, if it ain't (really) broken, don't fix it.
I can throw it away afterwards anyway.

But honestly in recent years I had very rarely the opportunity to heat the soldering iron. Even with some cheapo stuff. It does its job in its cheapo way, but in my experiance there are far less faults nowadways.

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## TonyP

> My philosophy is, that I try to fix it just before I would throw it away. So to say, if it ain't (really) broken, don't fix it.
> I can throw it away afterwards anyway.
> 
> But honestly in recent years I had very rarely the opportunity to heat the soldering iron. Even with some cheapo stuff. It does its job in its cheapo way, but in my experiance there are far less faults nowadways.


I totally agree. But like in the case of this Mackie board I'd never had this problem before and I thought i was the problem not the equipment. And it's hard enough to be a band member without being a soundman too. So like the old saying, once bitten twice shy. I'm trying very hard to research this leap. We are potentially now in a world where problems can be fixed in software instead of getting out the soldering iron or the cleaner spray. So trying to understand who makes the little box that has all the connections I need and the software that replaces the most rack units and is made good enough to take the little use I'll give it and still support it down the road has got me watching what everybody finds out very intently.

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## lloving

Experts, some advice please. 
Based on this thread I purchased a SoundCraft Ui12 for my 4 piece acoustic group. Being a rank beginner when it comes to sound I had a time getting our SoundCraft MFXi8 tweeked properly. Not so with the Ui12. Be it just luck or the interface, I have been able to get a far better sound out of our system with the Ui12 than with the MFXi8. That said I still have a lot to learn. My main problem is getting the dbs Anti Feedback analyzer feature to work. 
The instructions to setup the "fixed" filters are not very clear. I am sure I am missing something but after going through the setup it does not appear to be applying the filters. Not sure what I am missing but would appreciate ay advice.

LL

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## mandotim1955

Behringer nowadays is not the Behringer of five years ago. They've changed direction radically, and ridden the wave of digital gear further and faster than just about anyone. The X32 was the game changer it claimed to be, and the reliability of their new stuff is better than most 'good' brands. I got rid of my old Behringer stuff years ago, when I started to get more serious about sound engineering. When the big shift at Behringer came, I paid attention and did my research. An example; I have a friend who is a senior tech designer at Digico, who are very high-end indeed. He and his colleagues bought an X32 and took it apart to try to reverse engineer it. They ended up scratching their heads and wondering how Behringer made something that good for so little money. The result is that Digico will soon have a desk available at a fraction of the cost of their previous models, largely as a result from pressure from the X32. Another example; if you post about Behringer gear on any of the major forums, it's quite likely that you will end up in a conversation with Uli Behringer himself. They really listen to their customers, and the gear is getting better and better as a result (like the multiband compressors on the X32 that came from a conversation with the CEO). Another example; if my X32 goes wrong, the old Behringer would not be able to fix it at economic cost. They now have a repair centre in my country, and my warranty says that if they can't fix it and return it within 72 hours, they'll replace it (as long as the problem isn't due to me doing something stupid, of course!) I certainly wouldn't buy anything by Mackie ever again; I seem to spend a lot of time fixing power supplies, replacing drivers and replacing amp modules.

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## oldwave

> It does not seem to say anywhere in the published specs, but those are both said by Behringer tech people to be 1M impedance inputs, which is useful. As long as you are not using low output passive transducers with long cable runs, those would probably do away with the need for extra preamps/DI boxes for small gigs where you are close to the box. They are 250K on the Soundcraft Ui12 and Ui16.


It is in the printed manual that came with it and that's why I didn't used the pre-amp because of the correct impedance, I was very happy with the tonal quality.

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## almeriastrings

> My main problem is getting the dbs Anti Feedback analyzer feature to work. 
> The instructions to setup the "fixed" filters are not very clear. I am sure I am missing something but after going through the setup it does not appear to be applying the filters. Not sure what I am missing but would appreciate ay advice.
> 
> LL


1. Turn off all compression. Turn off all gates.
2. Go to the *MASTER CHANNEL* (Click Master label on master fader until it turns red)
4. Click *EDIT* button (between Mix/Gain and Aux Sends buttons)
5. Click *EQ* tab 
6. Bottom Left - *AFS SETUP* button. Make sure *FIXED* button is red and on/off button is blue (on). 
7. Raise mic levels until feedback heard. Watch the red lines appear as it is notched out. You will see the purple *FIXED* filter display fill up. When full, change mode to *LIVE* and back off on gain to performance levels.
8. Be wary of using compression on mics as it can add to feedback woes. 
9. When fixed filers are set, you can engage noise gates if required.

There is a 'sensitivity' slider, but I have not found it necessary to do much to that. 

That is all there is to it.

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mandotim1955, 

TonyP

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## lloving

As always Almeriastrings comes to the rescue. Thanks

LL

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## almeriastrings

This is how they compare in terms of size and general "look":





I am still doing comparisons, but here's a few early impressions and thoughts on the XR12 Air. Classified into three groups, which I'll label 'The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly"...

*The Good*

The preamps really are _very good_ indeed. Surprisingly good. Quiet, clean, plenty of headroom. Some of the analog Behringer mixers had _horrible_ preamps - these are in a different class. Frankly amazingly good considering the ticket price. The two Hi-Z inputs are also (as John says) very good and genuinely useful.  I would not hesitate to use these preamps for live sound, they are _more_ than "good enough".

The built in PSU is nice. The mixer does get very warm, however... much warmer than the Ui12 (or its PSU). 

The built-in USB drive stereo record function works well and is fine.

The built-in wi-fi and general connectivity (Ethernet, wi-fi client or hotspot) is very functional and works well. Configuration is pretty straightforward.

General build quality feels really solid. Sockets and connectors all seem very decent quality. 

Midi in and out, with potential for use with a separate control surface (Mackie protocol).

All the FX I have tested so far (not all of them, there are loads) have been fine. Nice reverbs. Gates and compression fine too. EQ's with plenty of options and all seem to work very well.

*The Bad*

The wi-fi hotspot has WAP security only. Not so good. Definitely be using an external router with this one!

The AUX outs are on TRS jacks, not XLR's. No a huge deal as you can just use a couple of short, stubby adapters..but a bit of an inconvenience for some, possibly.

No hard-wired manual control at all over the main outputs. This can be genuinely useful in an emergency if the connectivity goes down. 

No AFS (but given they have a very powerful DSP chip in there, you never know)

*The Ugly*

Have to say it, but the GUI on both the "X Air Edit" program (tested on Mac) and the two IOS and Android Apps are _seriously_ clunky and difficult compared to the super clean, responsive GUI of the Ui12. I am sure you get used to them, but everything from resizing the screen to how close stuff is packed together lags a long way behind the user-friendly nature of the Soundcraft approach. The color scheme is drab and not clear in all lighting conditions, and the text can be hard to read. There are touch sensitive rotary controls that are a real pain in terms of precise adjustments (even with the 'Fine' button engaged) and while some do change to a slider if you 'hold', it is still clunky and inefficient. There are also big inconsistencies between how the Apps behave (and what functions they carry out) on iPad vs Android. There are some nice touches, re-ordering channel strips, etc., but the general layout is just not as slick as Soundcraft's. While you can actually use the Soundcraft GUI very easily on a smaller tablet (or even a phone), everything was really cramped with the Android App on a 7" Galaxy. It was much better on 10" tabs and full size iPads, but I still felt it lacked in intuitive approach and clarity compared to the Soundcraft GUI.

Of course, updates are always coming and this may change for the better.

Despite reservations over the GUI and software, I think this is yet another super little mixer with bags of potential. It is well built, sounds great, and packs a real punch. 

I honestly think they are *both great* and each one has some strengths, and some weaknesses. As so much depends on the software element with such devices, the balance may change as updates are issued. I can see things like these totally changing things for solo acts, duos and smaller gigging outfits.

----------

Astro, 

TonyP

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## oldwave

Great review
I agree that the I pad app is less than desirable, I like the Mac app better.  For my needs with very low channel count (4) it works well. It does sound very good, but I also agree no hard wired master volume is an issue.  I didn't find the gain control too cumbersome on the Ipad, but I expect it is not very good on a smaller device.  Outside of what you found, its quite good for its price.  Ill get a look at the Soundcraft as soon as my music store Friends get one in. I always look forward to your exhaustive and informed opinions!!

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## mandroid

FWIW to adapt Mic cables to TRS-M 1/4" Nutrik makes  one piece adapters in Metal ,  no cord involved ..

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## almeriastrings

They do, but the resulting extra height and increased pull/leverage from the cord can really put a strain on the internal jacks. I've got a bunch of them, but after seeing a number of damaged jack sockets where they were used I don't use them anymore. I just make up short adapter cables instead. I also color code them with different cables, so I can see at a glance what they are.

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## almeriastrings

Now spent quite a lot more time exploring the XR-series. I have not used it on a gig yet, but played around a lot with it at rehearsal and in the studio. A few points came to light:

1) The Hi-Z inputs are limited to +20dB of gain. As John noted (above) this is borderline for low output pickups, such as magnetic or even some piezos. High output piezo's such as K&K's may be OK, but some 'bugs' and violin transducers put out a lot less signal and with those, you will probably be maxing out on available gain. In that case, you will need an external battery or PSU powered preamp still, as there is no phantom power available on those inputs at the mixer. Both inputs are perfectly OK with instruments that have active pickup systems of course.

2) Those apps... one of_ the_ big advantages of digital mixers is the ability to save show setups and individual channel settings as 'SCENES' for instant recall.  Unfortunately, Behringer's implementation of this is currently a real mess! By contrast, the method on the Soundcraft UI's is slick, clear and foolproof. Very easy to use. Here's how hard it is on the XR-Air mixers:

Let's say you create a show for a 4-piece band. You have the vocals set right, the instruments just so, and you now save it to your iPad app, giving it a name, say "Bill's BG Band". You now create another Scene for the next band and give that a name. Save it on the iPad. You can now switch between them using  the 'SHOWS' and 'SNAPSHOTS' tabs. That works fine - apart from the fact that nowhere on the main mix screen is it clear which band's settings are currently loaded! In fact, it is not clear anywhere.....you now go to the XR-EDIT program on your Mac or PC, and can you just pull those up by name as you would expect? No. You can't, because the main control program is not capable of reading the internal saved snapshots/scenes in the mixer by name.... and it gets even worse, because if you also use an Android tablet, they are not even called the same thing, and again, the various apps and main control program do not 'share' the Snapshot/Scene data with each other, so they can easily go out of synch and things can get overwritten or changed accidentally. Also, on the Android app, the NAME of the show/scene/snapshot you have loaded is nowhere to be found (again). This should be right up there on the main page. It is critical information, and it is just not there.

It is weird, because the channel 'scribble strip' names all come through fine on the different apps/screens, but all of the vital SCENE/SNAPSHOT info is missing. Completely.  This is a recipe for major confusion in a complex live setting.

The actual mixer is great. Very nice box. The software feels half-finished, though. Hopefully they will get this sorted out. Now if only Soundcraft could do some work on the preamps, and Behringer could fix the software, we'd all be happy.  Alternatively, I'd like Soundcraft's software on the Behringer mixer  :Laughing:

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## almeriastrings

> 1) The Hi-Z inputs are limited to +20dB of gain. As John noted (above) this is borderline for low output pickups, such as magnetic or even some piezos. High output piezo's such as K&K's may be OK, but some 'bugs' and violin transducers put out a lot less signal and with those, you will probably be maxing out on available gain. In that case, you will need an external battery or PSU powered preamp still, as there is no phantom power available on those inputs at the mixer. Both inputs are perfectly OK with instruments that have active pickup systems of course.


 :Redface: 

Correct that... wrong cable plugged in!  :Redface: 

More than enough gain for all kinds of piezos, but very low output magnetics may still struggle.

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## oldwave

Ahh the dangers of cross platform apps rather than html5.  They could take some lesson from RME on software and drivers I expect.  Lets hope they are listening to the customer and refining the software.  For my purposes and the low channel count it suffices as the complexity is very low.  However, If I had the 16 channel version as my main mixer (and not the QU16 that I really like) the issues would be more trouble some, especially with larger bands and multiple venues.  Yamaha 01v96 saves all the scenes in memory as well as on the external program devices, but I suspect the dsp is not roomy enough on the Behringer ?

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## almeriastrings

I think it has no problem with DSP capacity or capability. It is more a question of the software routing - they could, for example, use the USB port to save scene data to memory stick. It also looks like they are going to implement an AFS system in these - no specific date, but it is apparently quite likely. Definitely a "work in progress". A detailed user manual would be useful too. At present, they are relying on a Wiki page operated by volunteers, and there are gaping holes in coverage.

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## oldwave

Thats good news, I have an older Behringer 24 / 96 eq that has that capability, so they certainly already have the dsp templates.  The printed manual is pretty lame, but I didn't have much trouble figuring out the routing, except a little on the effects returns for a minute or so.  The wiki is lame.  Saving to usb seems a no brainer.

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## TonyP

"bump"

I started "thinking" again about this discussion on upgrading to the digital super light kit and went back to Sweetwater and the Ui12 as I need/want a min. of 8 pre's and the idea of so small and light for only $399! There was only two reviews and one was 4 1/2 out of 5 and the other was 3. And the three was my idea of a nightmare, he lost connection 3 times in the middle of a gig and had to reboot. Now says he's going to carry a laptop. I know you can't always rely on reviews but that's a pretty epic fail IMHO and that got me looking at the QSC and that dedicated screen, the right # of pre's are good but twice the price and no feedback buster has got me balked. Soooooo close, but no cigar. Am I being paranoid?

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## almeriastrings

From my experience with a variety of these things (and I think this is reflected in what other users say on various forums), the key thing is not to rely on the internal wi-fi, but to hook up a decent external, dual band router. The internal wi-fi should be regarded as for setup and non-critical applications only, and as a back up. Not as the main connection at a gig. This applies to all of these systems. You get a far, far stronger signal with better coverage and stability from even a $40 router than you do from the internal unit. The difficulty with wi-fi these days is that 90% of the audience are carrying iPhones and stuff, and the bands get quite congested. You need to scan to find the best band and then use something that has 5 Ghz capability. I use an Apple Airport Extreme but I have also tested a much cheaper TP-Link Archer C20, and that worked OK too. 

In short, you will find "disconnect" horror stories with any and all wi-fi-based mixers, but if you look more closely, virtually without exception these are from users relying on the internal wi-fi or on an underpowered "dongle". I see the same thing on our M20D. The dongle will get you hooked up, but the signal strength, coverage and responsiveness of the connection is massively better when using an external router. It can take 30 seconds of 'searching' and delay while the iPad connects to the dongle vs. 5 seconds with an Airport Extreme.

I took a quick look at those reviews... the difficulty is that such reviews can be be from people who do not really understand the systems... one reviewer says that the Ui12 is "this is only device of this type that has it's own wifi "hub." Looks like all the others rely on venue's WIFI (good luck!)" = which is totally incorrect. The Behringers and many others can also create a hotspot, connect to a separate network, or use Ethernet.  So all such reviews need to be treated with caution. 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Ui12

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TonyP

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## TonyP

Thanks so much, you are the man. I totally agree that both reviews were noobs, but so are I! I'll look into the router but if it's going to end up costing $400 I'm still in the $800 range and might as well go with the QSC,even though there is more the stuff I'm looking for in the Ui12. My buddy who's a pro FOH guy also says he won't go anywhere without his router/scanner but I was hoping for a simple plug and play wham band thank you mam but I guess I should give up on that if you have to be a network engineer too. Waaaaaa.

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## almeriastrings

You can get a perfectly good, proven router for a lot less than $400. The Airport Express is often recommended for digital mixers and costs around $90. These work very well indeed.

The point about being a network engineer, is a very good one though. Unfortunately, there is no doubt that this is becoming increasingly important. I would not say _any_ of these mixers are truly "plug and play". They might be _sometimes_... but certainly not always, in all circumstances and that is not really good enough for critical use. The M20D is pretty good. Just add the USB to Ethernet adapter, connect to a router, and click 'connect' on your iPad. No 'advanced' settings need messing with. The others... well, yes, they can take a bit more work, or even a lot more work. Just the way things are these days, unless you stick with analog.... 

I have as much redundancy in my system as possible. For example, I might be using a pair of SA220 towers and these each have direct mic inputs and hi-Z instrument inputs, so if all else failed, we could get by with just those. I also carry a "spare" digital mixer to back up the main M20D (an X-12 Air or the Ui12). If I was just using a single digital mixer, I'd definitely keep a simple analog board back in the truck.. just in case.

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TonyP

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## Toni Schula

So I purchased a Behringer XR18.

This is the only model in the XR family wich includes a multichannel USB audio interface (18x18, or as I say 18+18, that is 36 not 324  :Wink:  )

Here are some findings:

WiFi:
Internal hotspot: the mentioned problems with stability of the connection and weak protection. In addition the SW is unstable and the hotspot needs to be rebooted every now and then by switching to LAN mode and back to hotspot mode. Audio processing and USB recording are not interrupted by this. Still with the current FW the internal hotspot should be used for serious work.
WiFi client mode. I gave it a quick try but then decided that I did not like to configure my WiFi router and repeater. I am quite paranoid and have enabled MAC address filtering on these.
LAN mode: worked flawless so far.
LAN mode with external WiFi router: works pretty well. Still there is the chance that the mobile control apps need to reconnect. This takes a few seconds while the control app autodetects the device again and syncs the status from the mixer. Audio processing is of course not interrupted. It's just a few seconds of blind flying. Avoid the mountains!

I took a look at the network traffic. Control app and mixer quite busily talk to each other speaking OSC protocol. Many, many packets per second. Mainly updating the meters and re-subscribing to the meters update. This is of course inherent to the concept.

Missing hardware volume control: a workaround could be to use the headphone jack as LR output. Then XR has very flexible routing and this can be done easily. The of course you cannot use headphones, you need a splitter cable and end up with un-balanced connections... I use this for playing around and get familiar with the XR at home.

Shows and scenes are stored on the control device instead of the mixer. Unfortunately. If you want to have a backup device you need to store the scenes there too. So you need to prepare the scene once and store it on each device. Unfortunately there are differences between the control apps on different platforms (see some details below) which might limit this approach.
The XR supports to store 'snapshots' in the mixer. But these have numbers instead of names (1-64), and so far only the PC plattforms (Win, Mac, Linux) support this. Recall should be possible via MIDI, which I did not test. When storing a snapshot you have rich options to define what will be recalled with this snapshot (which channels, busses, sections like Input, Dyn, Eq, ...)

As mentioned by others the control app is available for various platforms, but these versions are totally inconsistent. Even the GUI concept and capabilities differ.

Windows app: is the most complete. (Mac and Linux might be very similar, I could not test these, see below)
Pro: seems to have access to all mixer functions. Even to snapshots.
Cons: 
I found no way for personalisation (something like the Soundcraft UI's view groups).
The concept of busses, FX returns and DCAs is weird. The GUI always shows the channel mixers. In order to access a bus or DCA you need to go to sends on faders mode for that bus or DCA. Then the master fader is replaced by that bus or DCA! I prefer to have the master fader always on the screen. I found no way to displax the DCAs and busses side by side.
The USB routing screen shows only channels 1-16. You still can access channels 18 and 19 USB returns in the Input Configuration screen of the desired channel.

Mac version: I have no Mac, not tested, but I believe it is mpore or less the same.

Linux version: failed with a memory dump. I followed the instructions from the behringerwiki and installed the required 32bit libraries on my 64bit Ubuntu, still the same error message: illegal instructions. I guess that my AMD Athlon processor does not like the application... That's apitty, because my favorite DAW Ardour has no Windows version.

Android app: tested on a smartphone
That is the second most complete version.
Pros: allows nice customisation. I played with two screens of input channels (1-8, 9-16) + master, a mixing screen woth bass fader, DCAs + master, and effects screens + master, ...
Cons:
No access to the mixer's internal snapshots
Switching between scenes is cumbersome and interrupts the workflow. It is quite easy to save a scene instead of loading it, which effectively destroys that scene. Scene name is only displayed in the scenes screen.
No mute groups (but you can mute the DCAs and with them all there controlled channels)
Totally different concept than with the other platforms.
My eyes once were better... Texts such as dB values are too small for me.

IOS app:
Cons: the most incomplete variant.
No DCA control. If a DCA was pulled completely down on annother platform, I found now serious way to bring up the corresponding channels again. Maybe reloading the scene helps, but them you loose all the tweaking done after saving that scene...
No mute groups
Very limitted customisation. You can change the order of channels and somehow link the faders. That is not stereo linking. If you are in layoutbedit mode you can drag the faders to rearrange them, if you put one too close to the neighboring channles, they get connected and move together. Even be more than two faders can be combined this way. 
No access to snapshots.
Handling of scenes is as inconvenient as with the Android app.
Accessing bus faders and EFx sends is as inconveniant as on the Windows platform. I found no way to see the bus faders side by side.

USB audio interface:
Linux: works plug and play. I use ALSA, Jack and Ardour. To use all 18 USB ins and 18 outputs all you need is to first configure Jack to use the Behringer as the sound HW which is simply selecting it in th QJackCtrl config screen, configure Jack to use 18 input and 18 outputchannels (or less, depending on your project). And in Ardour you need to do the Usual Jack plumbing, that is to select which channel(s) shall be used as inputs and outputs for the given track. I reconfigured an older 16 channel session we recorded at a live gig with the venues multitracker and mixed it at the XR18. This worked perfectly. 
Windows: you just need to install the Behringer driver and can use all 18 input and output channels. I recorded 18 channels in parallel from one analog sereo source (did I mention the very flexible routing options in the XR18) in Audacity. No issues at all. But I could not convince Audacity to send more than its stereo mains during playback. I am sure this works just as well as under linux.
In my tests I did not consider latency. Being a complete mixer the XR can easily provide a zero latency monitor mix, whenever needed. Or eight of them. With all desired effects.

Hardware: nothing to add here to Almeriastrings excellent review. Sounds great, appears to be solidly built. Hardware volume controls on all outputs would have been nice.

Conclusion: good concept, the only alternative I know with better multi platform support is the UI, good hardware, good sounding, flexible. The WiFi firmware needs bugfixes for better stability at least for hotspot mode. 
But the control apps have much room for improvement! They are more or less still beta SW. I am longing for updates.
Behringer is quite open. They disclosed (or at least allowed the community to do so) the OSC command structure in their wiki. So maybe 3rd parties step in to fill the gaps. Like e.g. Davidgiga1993 did for the X32 with his Mixing Station.
Connecting a control surface via MIDI is annother promissing option, though one more box to haul to the gigs and brings the budget to the range of a M20D or Touchmix 16.

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almeriastrings

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## almeriastrings

Good report, Bauzi. I agree with your observations.

The hardware on the XR series in terms of built quality (internal PSU, nice connectors, etc.) and the mic preamp performance is very good indeed. The software and iPad/Android apps do seem like the are not out of beta-testing, though, as you say. The failure to save snapshots/scenes direct to the mixer, and instead to keep them separately on all devices is a total nightmare. It is fine if you only use one device, but if you use more than one, you can easily get lost and could end up losing or changing important settings accidentally. There is also no clear indication of which snapshot is presently loaded... 

After using all these, I still like the M20D best. You can use multiple iPads (I use a full size and a mini) and everything auto syncs.  There is never any doubt as to what is loaded and in use. The labels are all very clear. You get full multitracking built in, straight to a SDHC card, with 'one button' virtual soundcheck as well. Very, very stable, fast wi-fi, and a control surface on the mixer. One (hardware) button for 'Mute mics' another for 'Mute all'. Very useful. Superb anti-feedback system.  

I do think that if they can improve the software and firmware, however, the XR series have a lot to offer at an incredible price point. I'm keeping mine as an emergency backup in case there is ever a fault with the M20D. It is so small and light weight you hardly know you are carrying it.

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TonyP

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## foldedpath

> I'll look into the router but if it's going to end up costing $400 I'm still in the $800 range and might as well go with the QSC,even though there is more the stuff I'm looking for in the Ui12. My buddy who's a pro FOH guy also says he won't go anywhere without his router/scanner but I was hoping for a simple plug and play wham band thank you mam but I guess I should give up on that if you have to be a network engineer too. Waaaaaa.


Well, that's why the only two mixers I'd consider right now are the QSC or Line6 M20D. I know enough about networking to scan frequencies and set up a router, but there are some gigs we do that qualify as "combat audio" with little setup time. Or on wedding gigs, a need to set up in two different locations (ceremony and cocktail hour), which also involves a time constraint. 

With a built-in control screen, there is at least the option of using it like a conventional mixer and not fooling with Wifi at all. You can still use the audience-roaming remote sound check feature with an iPad when there is enough time to scan frequencies and use an external router.

I can appreciate the convenience of walking into the audience area and doing a sound check from there with an iPad. But if you're running your own PA and performing too, that also means a wireless rig on your instrument to hear yourself in the mix. I've done that before with our duo, shouting to my guitar partner while he makes adjustments on stage. With an iPad on a wireless link to the mixer it would be easier. But I'd still need my wireless rig on the mandolin, and that also gets complicated when I'm playing more than one instrument and have to sound-check them all. It's why I've been using my wireless rig less frequently in the last year, just setting levels from the stage based on experience and feedback from someone in the audience. 

Anyway, don't forget this aspect of these newfangled digital mixers. For me, they're attractive mainly for the mix settings recall (for places we'd perform often) and the multitrack recording feature. If I have to boot up my wireless rig on the mandolin to use the mix-from-audience feature, I'm not going to be using that feature very often.

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## TonyP

So you still carry a router with the M20d?

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## almeriastrings

> I can appreciate the convenience of walking into the audience area and doing a sound check from there with an iPad. But if you're running your own PA and performing too, that also means a wireless rig on your instrument to hear yourself in the mix.


Not with the M20D, and also with certain other digital consoles. The virtual soundcheck is recorded internally to memory (all 16 inputs if required) then looped, so you can put your instrument down, the band can leave the stage, and you can then tweak away as necessary for as long as it takes. The Avid Venue system does this, as does the Behringer X32, DigiCo and some other consoles, though some do require a laptop or external hard drive to be attached. The M20D does it all internally, which is super fast and very neat. It was one of the things that interested me in this particular system and it has proved worth its weight in gold.

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## almeriastrings

> So you still carry a router with the M20d?


Oh, yes. I do keep the dongle in the case, but only as a backup. The M20D has no built-in wi-fi, so you have to use a dongle, or, preferably, a router. The Airport Express is often recommended with this mixer.

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## foldedpath

> Not with the M20D, and also with certain other digital consoles. The virtual soundcheck is recorded internally to memory (all 16 inputs if required) then looped, so you can put your instrument down, the band can leave the stage, and you can then tweak away as necessary for as long as it takes. The Avid Venue system does this, as does the Behringer X32, DigiCo and some other consoles, though some do require a laptop or external hard drive to be attached. The M20D does it all internally, which is super fast and very neat. It was one of the things that interested me in this particular system and it has proved worth its weight in gold.


That would work for gigs where I'm playing one instrument. Will the mixer store and recall more than one sound check? If I'm playing mandolin, octave mandolin, and flute, those are three different mixer channels that need adjusting during a sound check (two clip-on mics, one external mic on a stand).

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## almeriastrings

Yes, though not in 'Quick Record' mode. You have to go into full-multi-track recording/playback mode. Then you can record/playback extended takes, or as many different takes as you can fit on a 32GB SHDC card (or external USB drive).

Discussed here:

http://line6.com/support/topic/1003-...ixing-on-m20d/

Also video demo:

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## TonyP

> Oh, yes. I do keep the dongle in the case, but only as a backup. The M20D has no built-in wi-fi, so you have to use a dongle, or, preferably, a router. The Airport Express is often recommended with this mixer.


Sorry, but what's the difference between a dongle and a router? So the express is secure enough and can scan to make sure you can find a channel? Sounds like the router is a whole 'nuther world that seems to be glossed over as unnecessary by the manufacturers but the pro's just all take for granted. The $100 for the Express is going to do it for a while?

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## almeriastrings

Dongles, because of physical size restrictions, and because they run off USB power, lack the ability to contain larger, more effective antennas and the internal transmitter may not be as effective as that on a larger, stand-alone router. There are other differences, for example, access to their internal settings may not be as easy as with a 'full' router and they will also lack a direct ethernet connection. In practice, the main thing is that a decent router will give better coverage and a more stable connection. This is obviously very important at a live show. 

You can usually use a wide range of routers with these mixers successfully. Some are easier to set up than others. Also, some have facilities that others do not that might be useful. If you want your mixer to be able to join an existing network, for example, you need a router that has a 'wireless client' mode - the Airport Express can do this, and it is a well regarded, quality item with a proven track record in this area (digital audio mixer control).

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## TonyP

Is the AirPort Extreme twice as good as the Express? At $399 for the Ui12 and add the either Extreme or Express you are still way below QSC (that would still need router!) and half of the M20D. I started looking at the M20D and it seems an amazing rig but I keep coming back to us just not gigging enough, much less getting paid enough, to justify the purchase.

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## almeriastrings

No - the Extreme is "just a bit" better, I suppose you could say, in this application, but as that is what I already have and use with various mixers, it is the one I mentioned. I know a lot of people who are 100% happy with the Express (or even some other router, such as a TP-Link dual band).

The M20D is at the higher end of the current crop of 16-mic input digital consoles, but it does perform extremely well. I like it a lot. It has been trouble-free, and does everything (and more) that I need. This is a quickly evolving area, though... so new stuff will be coming out before long, I am sure. 

It will be interesting to see if Allen & Heath go after this particular market......

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## pit lenz

> It will be interesting to see if Allen & Heath go after this particular market......


The Qu-Pac is just above this segment:32(!)inputs, 16 excellent preamps, great FX engines, Ethercon snake to a 32-ch stagebox, the perfect small package by itself or (as I also use it) little redundant lifeboat for a larger GLD system.
Pricewise slightly above the aforementioned solutions, though...

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## foldedpath

> It will be interesting to see if Allen & Heath go after this particular market......


Yamaha is the other 500 lb. gorilla in the wings. I'm wondering whether they're working on a modernized version of the O1V series, or if they'll use their acquisition of Line6 to continue along the lines of the M20D. Maybe both. 

It just seems weird that we don't have a digital mixer competing in this market right now with the name Yamaha on it. I know the O1V96i is still viable, but it's lacking a lot of features and the pricing is out of whack, compared to the new gear.

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## TonyP

hmm, that shows what I know, I didn't know Yamaha absorbed Line6. Maybe like so many of these big corp's they'll just let Line6 be the "budget" brand and not worry about us small fries.

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## TonyP

> No - the Extreme is "just a bit" better, I suppose you could say, in this application, but as that is what I already have and use with various mixers, it is the one I mentioned. I know a lot of people who are 100% happy with the Express (or even some other router, such as a TP-Link dual band)..


Thanks again. If it's going to do the job for half the cost, just like the Ui12 I'm there. The main thing I wish the Ui12 had was at least a master vol. knob just in case. Or better yet a M10D for $600 or there abouts. But I guess that's the QSC, but not really. My gear jones wants the M20D but my pocket book/bookeeper side of me says the UI12. 

It's going to be hard to see if the market gets more bargains or they know they have us hooked and can get more the retail price instead of the "street" price they are right now. Sweetwater wants you to think at $1500 you are getting like $1300 off.

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## almeriastrings

> The main thing I wish the Ui12 had was at least a master vol. knob just in case


It does have that. Two in fact, one for each channel on the main outputs. The two knobs furthest to the right. The one on the left is the headphone volume.

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## Toni Schula

I noticed that if you have configured WiFi client mode on the X-Air series, the ssid and the password travel in clear text across the network. This hapens everytime a client connects and syncs it settings from the mixer. Don't leave that configured and switch to unprotected or weakly protected hotspot mode.

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## almeriastrings

Good point. I had not noticed that. Quite a security flaw...

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## TonyP

> It does have that. Two in fact, one for each channel on the main outputs. The two knobs furthest to the right. The one on the left is the headphone volume.


You're killin' me here.........

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## TonyP

Ok, I took the plunge, I found a demo Ui16 on special and got a Air Express too. Looking fwd to having more channels than I need and not have to juggle so hard if someone wants to sit in. I'm sure I'll be asking for help.

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## almeriastrings

Just check it over carefully to make sure you have one free of excess noise levels. That is really the only big issue with these. I know a couple of people who seem to have received good ones that they are happy with, but there are certainly some others out there that do demonstrate excessive 'hiss' at higher gain levels, especially if +48v phantom power is turned on. I understand some revisions have/are being made.... and the very early ones seem to be the worst affected. The user interface is excellent - very straightforward, and provided you are using a good external router, connections seem solid too, but watch out for any with excess noise. One quick test you can do is to turn on +48v on channels 1 and 2, then move the virtual gain fader between 30-50dB (not the channel fader which should be set at 0.0db for this test, but the input gain fader). If you hear a 'crackling' noise, your unit has the issue. If not, you struck lucky.

Soundcraft are aware of this and are looking into it.

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## TonyP

Um, I'm cornfused, so I get turning up the gain, but if the channel slider is down......where am I going to hear anything? Is this some kind of mystery thing that you'll hear crackling and not hiss and can I hear it through the headphone jack?

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## almeriastrings

Yes. You can hear it through the headphone jack (turn that all the way up). You set the channel slider to 0.0dB, which is not at the very bottom, but roughly 3/4 of the way up, where the thicker gray line is.

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## TonyP

Oh, ok where "unity" was on my old Mackie. Now I gotcha. Now just got to wait for FedEx. I've never set up a router either so this all should be duly overwhelming  :Smile:

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## almeriastrings

First of all, get it working with the built-in hotspot. Then add the router.

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## TonyP

Well I have good news and bad news. Good news is you told me right what to go to, bad news it has noise worse than what you described.

 For whatever reason I wasn't getting any sounds out of the headphes but I could see the meters jumping around, especially the outputs. I finally had to hook up my MP3 player to it to confirm I was getting signal thru and when I did that and went back and reset the gain and ch to 0.0db holy cow it was worse than you describe! 

It sounded just like a little kids trike with the squeaky wheel! Almost completely obscured the noise of the hiss. Just called Sweetwater and they are going to talk to somebody in service and get back to me. All this noise goes away when you turn off the phantom power. If you'd not told me about this it might have taken me a while to notice this as I'm now the only one using phantom. Glad the gigs aren't this weekend.

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## lloving

TonyP keep us posted. We are on the edge of our seats. I'm going to test my Ui12 right now.

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## almeriastrings

I have been talking to Soundcraft about this (not just customer service). I do not have any definitive 'official' info on the cause I can pass on, but I can tell you what I _think_ has happened. I _suspect_ a batch has got out there with defective components. It acts very much like some phantom voltage is 'leaking' back into the preamps. Could also be an error at the assembly plant... I believe a large number of units are affected. I do know they are gathering the serial numbers of these units and are trying to find out what went wrong.

I would return any affected mixer for a refund. Might be worth waiting until the dust settles before getting a replacement, or at least until there is an official announcement as to a fix.

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## TonyP

This is exactly what I was trying avoid. Unfortunately I was not able to talk to the salesman that was my "sales engineer" only another salesman who assured me they'd get back to me. Nothing yet. The guy I talked didn't seem convinced I knew what I was talking about. I had to describe to him what I'd done to find the problem and how through this long thread here on the Cafe I'd become aware of the mixer in the first place. And then how some of the mixers had a problem and Soundcraft was aware of it. Hard to know for sure what's going on, but I think I'll try again to call and email to get hold of the original sales engineer to see if he even got the message. This East coast time lag thing sux.

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## foldedpath

> This is exactly what I was trying avoid. Unfortunately I was not able to talk to the salesman that was my "sales engineer" only another salesman who assured me they'd get back to me. Nothing yet. The guy I talked didn't seem convinced I knew what I was talking about. I had to describe to him what I'd done to find the problem and how through this long thread here on the Cafe I'd become aware of the mixer in the first place. And then how some of the mixers had a problem and Soundcraft was aware of it. Hard to know for sure what's going on, but I think I'll try again to call and email to get hold of the original sales engineer to see if he even got the message. This East coast time lag thing sux.


Tony, it seems you're at a decision point here between 1) working with their tech support to fix it without a return, or 2) returning it for a replacement unit, or 3) just going for a straight money-back return and maybe try something else.

If it were me, I'd go for door number 3, since there are reports of other units having problems and you may just run into the same thing with a replacement. It doesn't seem like it's quite ready for primetime yet, and there are other digital mixers to choose from. You're entering a new world here with this digital stuff, and the last thing you need is something where the bugs haven't been ironed out yet (one reason I lean towards the QSC myself, since that model baked in the oven a long time before they released it).

You may have already seen it, but here's Sweetwater's refund policy:




> ""No Hassle" Return Policy:
> 
> We want you to be completely happy with your purchase. If you are not satisfied with any product, for any reason, you may return it for a refund of the purchase price, an in-house credit, or exchange for another product within a fair amount of time from the shipping date (usually 30 days). If your purchase was eligible for free shipping, the shipping cost will be deducted from your credit or refund."

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## TonyP

I agree FP. They offered to connect me to a service tech, but that only adds insult to injury IMHO. And I explained this to the sales guy. This is not me. 

After the last comment almeriastrings made I wished I'd not gone this route. My impression was this was an early problem and I'd waited long enough for it to blow over. It would seem either there is not a lot of people using phantom power or they just don't know about the test. It says on Sweetwaters site this is a popular mixer and at this price point and features it should be. I think I'm done with Soundcraft and even though I don't want to do it, will jump up to the M20D. I was wobbling towards it in the first place. I've not gotten lucky for quite a while now with my lo buck alternatives. No more used, no more demo's. No more latest thing. If I didn't need a mixer so bad I'd give up and wait a while. But I've been already waiting for almost 2yrs.

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## almeriastrings

I agree it is unfortunate that this problem has arisen. In other respects these really are very good little mixers for the price, and if you have one without any faults present, they sound good and are very reliable. However... it is pretty obvious something has gone wrong on an assembly line, somewhere, or some bad components got into production models. This sort of thing can happen - but you hope it won't. Sweetwater do know about it... I know of two other people who have had to return them for same reason. 

I have used Soundcraft stuff for many years, with excellent performance and reliability. This is the very first time I myself have ever had _any_ issue with one of their products. A shame, because it has a lot going for it... and they need to get this sorted out fast.

I would say the M20D is in a different league, however. Should be at the price, I suppose, but it really is a very nice and impressive piece of kit. Preamps are superb, the range of FX is as good as you'll find anywhere, and the iPad app and connection is rock solid used with an Airport Express. The only thing you need in addition is the Apple USB-Ethernet connector. Just hook it up and it connects virtually automatically. No messing with IP addresses, or anything like that. It just works.

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## TonyP

> This sort of thing can happen - but you hope it won't. Sweetwater do know about it... I know of two other people who have had to return them for same the same reason.


<sigh> I get stuff can happen. And especially when you have a new product. But that this has come to their attention and supposedly Sweetwater knows about it, yet the sales guy I was talking to didn't seem to know about it and the amount of time that has passed it doesn't bode well IMHO.

 Maybe I'm overreacting but having worked for large corporations with their overly long supply lines and huge bureaucracy that seems unable to react to problems I don't want to wait for them to get this straightened out. The idea of all these great co's logo's and virtual devices included in one tidy box at a great price lured me in. But I've also been witness to too many great ideas killed by bad execution.  

At this point I just want to hear from sales and get some options. Getting this late on a Friday doesn't help.

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## Beanzy

It may be worth trying a swap of the supplied external power supply, there could be a batch gone out with particularly noisy switch mode PSUs, they may be ok for everything else but just too dirty for supplying phantom power to mic level stuff. It could be internal too, but if not you could be lucky and get a quick fix that way.

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## almeriastrings

It seems not to be the PSU. At least on the two units I tested. I substituted a lab grade bench PSU and found the same problem.

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## Toni Schula

After playing a little more I have to update my own review:




> The XR supports to store 'snapshots' in the mixer. But these have numbers instead of names (1-64), and so far only the PC plattforms (Win, Mac, Linux) support this. Recall should be possible via MIDI, which I did not test. When storing a snapshot you have rich options to define what will be recalled with this snapshot (which channels, busses, sections like Input, Dyn, Eq, ...)


Snapshots do have names _and_ a number.
When using MIDI you can load a snapshot by its name only, though. I will give this a try, when summer/outdoor season is over.
Looks as if snapshots came with firmware V1.09, as the printed manual which was shipped with the box explicitly states that there are no snapshots in the device. The download version mentions the MIDI "PC" command to load snapshots. 




> Linux version: failed with a memory dump. I followed the instructions from the behringerwiki and installed the required 32bit libraries on my 64bit Ubuntu, still the same error message: illegal instructions. I guess that my AMD Athlon processor does not like the application... That's apitty, because my favorite DAW Ardour has no Windows version.


Yes, my Athlon processor lacks a CPU code the X-Air-Edit for Linux is using. Also I could not run the Windows version of X-Air-Edit under Linux with WINE. Need to wait for a new release which is compiled with more open compiler options...




> Connecting a control surface via MIDI is another promising option, though one more box to haul to the gigs and brings the budget to the range of a M20D or Touchmix 16.


The XR18 allows only rudimentary control via MIDI. Mainly fader levels, pan, sends, mutes but no EQ, Fx control (other than sends), etc. There should be MIDI foot switches available which allow to switch between the snapshots.


The very, very good thing (for me) is Behringer's openness. They published the full OSC documentation. So 3rd parties can fill in the gaps. E.g. the OSC command to load a snapshot is quite easy: "/-snap/load/,i  1   " to load snapshot 1.

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## lloving

Mine is noisy too, bummer.

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## TonyP

Sorry to hear it lloving. Is it still under warranty?

I've been in contact with Geoff and Sweetwater and now it's trying to figure out what to do. Turns out they can't keep M20D's in stock and a there's supposed to be a new shipment from Soundcraft of Ui12's and Ui16's but they don't know when they'll be in. So I'm at somewhat of a loss and don't know what to do. I was wanting to have this for a gig on the 12th of Sep. but I certainly don't want to step into the breach with mixer that shows up at the last second. Been there, done that, hated it. I really don't feel pulled by the X's or the QSC.....

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## foldedpath

> I've been in contact with Geoff and Sweetwater and now it's trying to figure out what to do. Turns out they can't keep M20D's in stock and a there's supposed to be a new shipment from Soundcraft of Ui12's and Ui16's but they don't know when they'll be in. So I'm at somewhat of a loss and don't know what to do. I was wanting to have this for a gig on the 12th of Sep. but I certainly don't want to step into the breach with mixer that shows up at the last second. Been there, done that, hated it. I really don't feel pulled by the X's or the QSC.....


Assuming you can get a full refund from Sweetwater, it looks like Musician's Friend has the M20D in stock at that same price (if "in stock" means anything on that web site). I've never had to deal with service or return issues with Musician's Friend (knock on wood), but I've gone there a few times for items that Sweetwater either didn't carry or couldn't get me in time for a gig.

Another option for a M20D is Audiopyle, who seem to be a distributor but I don't know if they have any in stock. I've never dealt with them personally, but they have a good rep in the pro audio forums I've visited. They're also located out here on the West Coast in Washington State, not far from CA where you are. You might want to give them a call.

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## almeriastrings

> Mine is noisy too, bummer.


If you are having this problem, get back to your supplier and push for a refund. 

It is a manufacturing defect. 

Consumer law varies from country to country, but if you discover a serious manufacturing defect is present, you should be entitled to either an exchange for a non-defective unit, or a refund.

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## Marc Katz

I have to give a big +1 for M20D. I've done 4-5 gigs with it and it's been solid. We had a sound person for the last gig and he sat in the audience and cleaned some things up. He likes the dynamic EQ for mandolin with the idea of compressing the chop a little but letting the leads come out louder.  I've been placing it down on the ground between the monitors so all the wire runs are short. It's fast to set up and seems great so far at least. 
Marc

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## almeriastrings

I have used ours a lot over the last 12 months, not only for our own gigs, but for other artists too. It has always been 100% solid. It has some very good features such as that dynamic EQ. It is also great if you get hit with the unexpected at the last minute, because those 'cartoon like' icons in the library conceal some really well designed presets and channel strip settings. So, if suddenly, a mandolin picker arrives, when none was expected, you have both a mandolin DI preset designed for a mandolin with transducer, and a mandolin mic'd preset if they are using a microphone. Both presets are very good starting points for 'tweaking', and the 'quick tweak' mode is especially intuitive and fast to dial in. There are dozens of these presets - absolutely loads of them - there's even one for bagpipes!

Among the hidden depths of the thing, there are various ways to configure the main outputs, with (again) some excellent room presets available. Very easy to apply and 'tweak'. 

The only proviso I would note is that while they say it can work with a dongle (and it does, provided you have a compatible model), the range, responsiveness and reliability of the link is vastly superior using a decent router. I have one of the Samsung dongles, but only keep it for backup. If you do have to use one, get a USB extender cable and place it as high as possible, within line-of-sight of the iPad. It can really struggle if plugged straight into the mixer (all that thick metal close by cannot help). With a router, I just use a 3m ethernet cable from the USB adapter and again, get the router up off the floor. Not had a single dropped connection with that method, ever.

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## lloving

Mine came from FullCompass.com. I have contacted them but have not heard back.

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## TonyP

I guess I'm not going to take a deeper plunge and go for the M20D. I'd already talked myself into the Ui16 when the Ui12 would probably do. And there are some wonderful bells and whistles but I'm wary of MF after the total mess my son got into with them trying to get a electric guitar.

I decided I'll see if I can stick long enough to get another and see if they fix it. I have to say Geoff at Sweetwater has tried his best to work this and it's just got too many variables because I've got a gig on Sat. after next so that puts a big wall up that complicates things. One of the work arounds was to see if maybe I see if there's some channels that are worse than others. Turns out ch 1 is the major culprit. It has measurable(on the meters!) hiss without phantom, with it it is crazy w/the squeaking when the gain is turned up to max. The squeaking goes away with phantom turned off, but at normal settings on gain and mix it's still going with no inputs. But it goes away when you activate hi Z. go figgure. Ch 1 also doesn't sound to me like the other ch's, kinda flat sounding. I think it's something in that circuit for Digitech amp emulator that's on those two first ch's. But ch 2 is waaaay less, so what do I know. The rest of the ch, 3 thru 12 are ok except for an occasional spike/pop after the phantom is turned on. Seems like a couple of seconds later. Didn't run it long enough to see if it would start popping. 

The tech John at Sweetwater seems to be unaware of probs with the Ui's and suggested it just needed an update. Sent me some links and since I'd already dl'd the manual looked up how to do it. Way easy straight fwd. No change for what I was experiencing but worth a try. I was really hoping that would fix all. And so the saga continues.

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## almeriastrings

It is definitely a hardware problem, and firmware updates will not fix it....

There are 'workarounds' - such as making certain you only use high output dynamic mics such as Shure Beta's, and only using self-powered condenser mics... or even using external preamps.... all of which work, but really, why should you have to?  There is a published specification for this mixer, and the simple fact is that it looks like a considerable number out there are way, way out of spec due to a manufacturing fault.

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## TonyP

> It is definitely a hardware problem, and firmware updates will not fix it....
>  all of which work, but really, why should you have to?  There is a published specification for this mixer, and the simple fact is that it looks like a considerable number out there are way, way out of spec due to a manufacturing fault.


Yup, I agree totally. And Geoff's working on getting me a new one as soon as they come in and get tested. And hopefully they are up to spec. Meanwhile I'm using the time to get more familiar with the unit and learn how to run it and configure it so I won't be a complete dunce if it shows up right before the gig. As it stands right now I'm hoping for a hot swap, where they send me a new, tested in house, mixer and after I get the new one send the one I have back.

 It's interesting that I see on forums something about Soundcraft's problem with pre noise, has that always been true? I thought Soundcraft was big time.

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## almeriastrings

Soundcraft mixers have always been excellent. I have used them for many years. Even on their smaller analog consoles, such as the EFX8 and MFXI12, the preamp and general performance has been superb. This is the first time I have ever known such an issue to crop up with a Soundcraft mixer. They purchased this design from an Australian company, SMPro Audio, so that may have something to do with it, though speaking directly to the product manager at Soundcraft, he assured me that the pre-production samples did not have this issue and that the design itself was OK. Production and assembly is in China these days, like most things, so there is not the close link now between R&D and the production floor that there was originally. Things can happen... component sourcing..assembly line... certainly something happened here.

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## foldedpath

> Yup, I agree totally. And Geoff's working on getting me a new one as soon as they come in and get tested. And hopefully they are up to spec.


It's your decision, obviously, but I'll reiterate my advice to take advantage of Sweetwater's no-hassle return policy for a full refund, before you fall any deeper down this rabbit hole. 

The whole point of moving from analog to digital mixers is to make things easier, not harder.

As a side note, I'm amazed they added a _guitar amp simulator_ to any of the channels. What the heck? That's the kind of thing that belongs upstream with the musicians, before it ever hits a mixer channel. It's just asking for trouble. This is the dark side of having all those "cool" FX embedded in a digital mixer that we needed racks of gear for, in the old days. It means any marketing bullet feature can creep into the gear, whether we want it or not. (/end rant).




> It's interesting that I see on forums something about Soundcraft's problem with pre noise, has that always been true? I thought Soundcraft was big time.


No, that's complete bull hockey. I've owned Soundcraft mixers like the EFX8 and MFXi12, and the preamps were very good for that class of mixer. Quiet, with lots of headroom.

According to Almeriastrings' last post, this seems to be a design they outsourced from an Australian company, so I guess it's not surprising it's not up to their usual standards. That's dissapointing, and as much as I like (and have recommended) Soundcraft products in the past, this really puts me off doing that in the future.

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## almeriastrings

I would advise return too.

If you do not return something that has a known defect, you are accepting it... and mixers with this fault will be absolutely worthless down the line if you ever want to sell or trade up.  If they can supply an exchange unit that they have personally tested and found to be free of the problem, fine - but otherwise, I'd be looking for a refund.

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## mandotim1955

Interesting thread, this. I guess a lot of us are 'early adopters', and there are usually a few snags with kit that is innovative and new to market. That said; I've done a dozen or so gigs with my new 'super lightweight' rig (2 x RCF Evox8 arrays and a Behringer XR18 stagebox/mixer, plus an iPad). The XR18 has been easy to use, seems solidly built and runs well. The preamps are quiet, with lots of headroom. The channel strip names are sometimes a little slow to load when loading a show, but pressing 'setup' and then back again sorts this out. I just load the show before we go on stage, and the loading is complete when we need to play. The wireless connection has been solid so far, with only one dropout, and the show still ran for the five seconds or so it took to reestablish the connection. The band love the new setup; it makes rigging and teardown very simple and quick, and our old backs are spared lugging a mixer and flightcase around. The XR18 fits in a plastic toolbox from the local hardware store, lined with absorbent foam. As an aside, the RCF Evox8 is just awesome.

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## TonyP

> It is definitely a hardware problem, and firmware updates will not fix it....
> 
> There are 'workarounds' - such as making certain you only use high output dynamic mics such as Shure Beta's, and only using self-powered condenser mics... or even using external preamps.... all of which work, but really, why should you have to?  There is a published specification for this mixer, and the simple fact is that it looks like a considerable number out there are way, way out of spec due to a manufacturing fault.


While I appreciate the concern guys I've not drunk the coolaide and gone mental. I'm not going to keep this thing and it's obvious( to me anyway) that it's going to have to go back to the factory and get its MB replaced. I think it's clear to Geoff there's a problem and he seems to understand. He's just as concerned I don't get another that's just as bad. My concern is Geoff is the only one there that even gets what's wrong. I'm defiantly keeping my eyes on the exit/refund and trying to keep myself from getting stuck in a corner. I've stated in several emails there is something wrong with this unit. I do wish I had the wherewithal to do some measurements instead of just my ears. But I don't. I'm sure these guys at Sweetwater have to deal with some pretty outrageous misuse so I can understand their caution. It does continue to worry me nobody but us chickens seems to know there is a problem.

And I agree FP, I don't need an amp emulator but there's a bunch of folks on the Cafe that would. And face it, this is not being made for the minuscule minority that we are. It would seem the M20D is closer to that. But it's 3x's the price and they don't have one in stock. I don't know if I should be happy I don't get bait and switched or sad I didn't get steered into the solution to all my problems.

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## lloving

I have a reply from FullCompass.com on my noisy Ui12. They referred me to Harman for support. They were kind enough to get me specific contact info. 
I think harman/SoundCraft is trying to filter as many of these complaints as possible before taking any action relative to replacement. The indication I get from FulCompass.com is they will repair not replace. Not hat I had in mind.

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## TonyP

> I have a reply from FullCompass.com on my noisy Ui12. They referred me to Harman for support. They were kind enough to get me specific contact info. 
> I think harman/SoundCraft is trying to filter as many of these complaints as possible before taking any action relative to replacement. The indication I get from FulCompass.com is they will repair not replace. Not hat I had in mind.


I think this is what the guys were trying to get me to be aware of. So I bailed and sent it back. I'm sorry you're caught in this loop.

Seems like I'm flip flopping a lot and I felt bad for Geoff at Sweetwater because he was trying really hard to make this work. But bottom line I'm not sure Harmon is going to fix this and they didn't have M20d in stock. So I did like FP suggested and went to MF. they had them in stock and after it was all said and done got me a better deal than advertised. Now it's all about whether this gets here when they say it will so I can have some time to get familiar enough to not cause a catastrophe. And of course the mixer is ok. 

In looking at the vids for the M20d I'm really impressed and excited with the stuff it can do, especially the recording and ability to tweak the mix through that. The only minor detail so far is the lack of virtual sliders...I'm not always good with doing virtual knobs.

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## foldedpath

> In looking at the vids for the M20d I'm really impressed and excited with the stuff it can do, especially the recording and ability to tweak the mix through that. The only minor detail so far is the lack of virtual sliders...I'm not always good with doing virtual knobs.


Yep, that's the trade-off for being able to load a previous mix (scene recall) and have all those FX controls, along with both low cost and a compact size. Otherwise you'd need physical motorized faders and knobs. There are digital mixers that have those, but it's a big potential failure point and it really drives up the cost. 

I use an iPad as a front-end for controlling my RME UFX recording interface in standalone mode, so I had to adjust to finger-swiping the faders and knobs. You get used to it. I'm not familiar with the interface on the M20D, but sometimes these things have a secondary mode, where you have fine control over the finger motion for small adjustments.

Keep us posted on how that M20D works out!

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## almeriastrings

> The only minor detail so far is the lack of virtual sliders...I'm not always good with doing virtual knobs.


I have good news for you. There ARE virtual sliders/faders. Some of those videos were with an early firmware version. The latest firmware has 'Fader View' on both the main unit and the iPad.



You can also customize exactly what the faders (and knobs) do in many cases, too.

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## almeriastrings

> I think harman/SoundCraft is trying to filter as many of these complaints as possible before taking any action relative to replacement. The indication I get from FulCompass.com is they will repair not replace. Not hat I had in mind.


PM sent on that subject.

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## TonyP

> I have good news for you. There ARE virtual sliders/faders. Some of those videos were with an early firmware version. The latest firmware has 'Fader View' on both the main unit and the iPad.
> 
> 
> 
> You can also customize exactly what the faders (and knobs) do in many cases, too.


I spent most of last night trying to get my old brain to absorb the ton of info on the M20D vids. I thought I'd seen somewhere there was a slider view but I've been through so much info on all these mixers I'm getting teflon brain. That great news....so "Fader View" is one of the icons at the top of the screen?? I can't even imagine trying to see all this stuff on a phone screen.

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## almeriastrings

Yes, Fader view is just one icon away - and you can select the inputs/fx sends and outputs. I normally use that mode when mixing - though for initial setup, the 'stage view' is great. It will take some time to fully explore the possibilities. Just start out with some simple setups and use the 'Quick tweak' mode to begin with. There is a lot of deep stuff hidden away in there. It takes time to get to grips with all the capabilities. I have used quite a few digital consoles, including the X32's and A&H Qu's, but I must say for acoustic type acts/gigs, where 12 mics/DI's + 4 lines are typically more than enough, I really think the M20d is tough to beat. The IOS interface is designed for iPad. You can just about get away with it on an iPad mini (I have one for backup) but the full size version is really what's needed.

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## TonyP

Makes sense, it's only software. It's the hardware that's tough to change if it's not right. To their credit line 6 concentrated on just one mixer. I now use a ipad3 for my music and I'm trying to get the rest of the band to give their big music stands and books up for stage.and just use iPads ...just too much clutter and if we're outside there's always a problem with pages being blown. Can't believe the kid in the band(26) uses his phone to read lyrics off of!

Do up run your mains in stereo or you just have like one array? 

Is it fairly easy to get house mix through the monitors? 

And where is the feedback buster? I've seen no mention anywhere about it. Looks like I'll only have one day to play with it before we go live  :Frown:

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## almeriastrings

I very rarely run _any_  PA in stereo as if you have things panned L-R the only people in the room who will hear it as intended are those in the middle of the venue. The audience off to the extreme left or right will get a very unbalanced mix. I just keep everything panned to center normally. 

Very easy to send whatever you want to the 4 Aux channels.

The anti-feedback system is found here: TWEAK > DEEP TWEAK> INPUT then FBS ENABLE and set mode to 'Universal' (tends to be better for instruments than 'Vocal' mode). You can see exactly what is doing during setup. You do this for each channel where you intend to use it. 

Unlike many mixers, this does not just have it on the mains or the monitors. It has up to 12 totally independent instances available, so you can turn it on, and off, and achieve optimal notching, independently for each of the 12 XLR inputs. 

This is much better than just having a 'global' system covering outputs only. Much more transparent.

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## TonyP

I'm used to the dbx. It makes sense to have it on each ch instead of global. So you enable FBS, then "ring" each ch separately, let it go into feedback and let it notch the problems then you disable it or let it keep running in the background? 

On the dbx you would pick how many notches you would want to "set" and how many would stay free to catch feedback if things changed during the performance. So I'm trying to get a feel for how this is going to be different. 

After it does it's thing to you have to save something so it will keep the notches? 

I've go the usb to ethernet Apple adapter for the Airport Express. I might only have the day before the gig to try and get some stuff set up. I was wondering if I can set up the AE without having it plugged into the M20D? This way I could get it already recognized by my iPad and set the password. I don't want to cause some glitch that would make it not recognize the M20D though. I've seen one guy who could never get through the setup >AE>M20D. They always make these things sound like no problem but they are also only using the dongle in the vids. Having never used and external router, does orientation of it have anything to do with performance/signal? I'm planning on using the tray I made that mounts right on a speaker stand that I use form my little Mackie 1202 for the M20D and was hoping I can just put a piece of velcro on the bottom of the AE and stick it to the speaker stand above the mixer. If it needs to be flat I guess I could mount it on like a monitor as it's right there too.

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## lloving

With all due respect, and I do mean that sincerely, this thread seems to have branched into a M20D thread and away from the original Ui12/Ui16 thread. Don't get me wrong, both are interesting however I think some may be interested in hearing how the issues with the UI12/Ui16 are handled by SoundCraft/Harman. 
I believe ultimately products like the Ui!2 and Ui16 will dominate the mixer market for small acoustic groups that have to get by on a limited budget. So....I was just wondering if we shouldn't split this thread?

Just a thought.

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## TonyP

oops, sorry, you are right of course. I should have been doing this through private email.

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## lloving

We learn a lot from these threads. It's all good.

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## almeriastrings

There is a good support forum for that mixer over at Line 6. Likewise, Behringer have an X-Series support forum. Always worth checking for news of firmware updates and model-specific advice. 

In general terms, all of these digital mixers are much richer in features than the analog desks we have all been using for years. With those, you really only get a basic input trim, some three (or four if you are lucky) band EQ, and maybe a choice of reverbs. On the higher end desks you may have separate parametric EQ on the monitors and mains, but rarely much more. 

These things are _totally_ different. Now, you not only have standard input channel settings, but boat loads of effects, compression, parametric, dynamic, de-essing and auto-notching EQ, and you are also dealing with stuff that just a few years ago only a network engineer had to think about. So there is a learning curve, a steep one in some cases. It is also easy to "throw the kitchen sink" at everything at go overboard with FX and tweaks "because they are there".  It is best to avoid that, and to start off with a simple basic mix using concepts you already have some familiarity with. Compression is a particularly two-edged sword in a live context, and needs to be used with care - it can really lower the feedback threshold. If your mixer has presets, check them carefully and if it is on by default, you find you get better results with it off, especially in an acoustic music context.

Tony, I will PM you.

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