# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Post a picture of your lyon&healy mando

## squirrelabama

I'll post a picture soon of my style A, but have been wanting to get this post going for some time! Would love to know more about how to date them. I own 674, symetrical points. No idea what yr that is, but am guessing pre '20?

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## laddy jota

This is my L&H Lakeside. The back is flat but it favors a bowl-back from the front. It has the bent top like most bowl-backs.

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## Jim Garber

Symmetrical style As with the longer scale came first, the earliest being 1917. Yours is prob 1919 or later. The scale went down to 13 inches and the body of the A went to asymmetrical in the early 1920s.

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## Jim Garber

I posted this on another thread but it should be here as well. The Leland Brilliantone line was meant esp for orchestra playing. This is a piccolo/soprano mandolin (tuned one octave above mandola) and the std mandolin.

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## brunello97

Jim, 
In all the chatter back and forth about your Brilliantone and my Ditson viz Leland and L+H, I've never asked what the back of yours is made of. Mine appears to be rosewood, though most of the finish is off. I'd be curious to know what is on yours.
Mick

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## Jim Garber

Mick:
Both of my Lelands are rosewood back and sides.

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## Lowell Levinger

There are pictures of my Leland Brilliantone guitar and mandolin - both with rosewood back and sides - 

here:

Leland Guitar and Mandolin

Banana

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## squirrelabama

my middle name is Leland.

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## Lowell Levinger

My fathers name was Leland.
And my grandfathers name was Ludwig.
I've got a fantastic Ludwig tenor guitar.

B.

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## markishandsome

My mothers a Gibson.

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## squirrelabama

ok, lets get back to it here! I need to get off my rear and post a picture of my style A. Stay tuned! 
p.s. Lowell, you should post a shot of that 2pt mandola you used to have for sale.......-Geoff:D

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## Jim Garber

Here is my L&H A. The neck had been broken and repaired semi-badly. I took it out recently and it looks like the repair is coming apart. It is a very good sounding mandolin tho -- early L&H with the longer scale (same as Gibson). Later they shortened the scale to 13 inches.

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## Jim Garber

Here is a tailpiece from another L&H A from the same era.

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## Lowell Levinger

> ok, lets get back to it here! I need to get off my rear and post a picture of my style A. Stay tuned! 
> p.s. Lowell, you should post a shot of that 2pt mandola you used to have for sale.......-Geoff:D


Ok, I found the pictures you asked for:










LL

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## Lowell Levinger

And here's the peghead.



LL

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## Glassweb

Now THAT's something special! I've never seen a L&H A style with a dark finish... much less a mandola. I imagine there's not too many of those floating around... that's what I call a Halloween TREAT!

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## danb

Love that "high tech" vulcanized rubber peghead overlay & pg! Hardware by firestone

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## Jim Garber

I believe that the Achilles heel of these L&Hs was that strip of vulcanized rubber down that is sandwiched in the neck. I think that caused some serious neck problems in our day.

Lowell, that dark mandola is one gorgeous instrument.

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## brunello97

Lowell, I'll chime in. That is a beautiful instrument. I think Eugene has been the most vocal in touting the L+H archtops as the most aesthetically pleasing of this era of US manufacture. I'm in complete agreement with him here, as I suppose many are. (No disrespect intended to the lovers of the transverse scroll....)

Jim, Would you have a closer view of the damage and repairs to the neck on your A? The rubber strip neck addition has always been very curious to me. 

I know it has been discussed in other threads but I appreciate squirrelabama starting a more singular (or single maker) topic thread. Hopefully it allows more consolidation of the considerable knowledge and experience that passes through here (as well as allowing for easier searches later on.)

Mick

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## Bob DeVellis

Speaking of necks, this instrument began life as a Style B. Somewhere along the line, its neck was snapped and John Bernunzio had Doug Unger re-neck it with an A Style neck. Although it's no longer original, obviously, it's not a bad trade-off. The neck, fingerboard, and frets are brand new and perfectly set. The original body delivers the classic L&H tone. The vulcanized rubber plate that would ordinarily cover the headstock has been replaced with a sheet of solid ebony. The neck is a one-piece, with no rubbery core, reinforced internally with either ebony or graphite (not sure which). The "B" label is still inside and Doug Unger added a "restored by..." message in pencil under the headstock plate, so it's not intended to fool anyone. Just a very nicely done restoration. Doug even used a set of Handel tuners on it.


.

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## Bill Snyder

That two point shape is IMO one of the most attractive out there.

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## mandolooter

great shot Bob!

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## markishandsome

Rubber!?   
Now I've seen everything. I wonder if in 100 years when everyone is playing carbon fiber mandolins they'll say "wood?! how outlandish!"

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## JEStanek

CF may be to wood what the remo head is to skin...

Thanks so much for this thread. I'm having an assymetrical L&H style A inspired mando built. I also feel the tuner face area is the only weak element in an otherwise perfect design (IMO). I may go with a slot head configuration while maintaining the violin scroll. Bob, Jim and Lowell, I could look at these all day!

Jamie

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## squirrelabama

Finally had some time to get in touch with my inner photogropher......As promised, #674. This one has a big, round, powerful tone.

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## squirrelabama

one piece back .........sweet!

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## squirrelabama

look at that flame! no plastic tips in the points either...the guys who built these were very gifted.

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## squirrelabama

my favorite shot...

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## squirrelabama

lets not forget the back of the HS.....

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## Bill Halsey

> I'll post a picture soon of my style A, but have been wanting to get this post going for some time! Would love to know more about how to date them. I own 674, symetrical points. No idea what yr that is, but am guessing pre '20?


Squirrelabama, here's an idea for dating your L&H. Check the patent stamp on your finger rest. I have a long-scale symmetrical Style A #682, just 8 after yours. The finger-rest bears two patent stamps. One reads: "PAT APL'D" and has been filled in with something black; the other, just below it in the usual position, reads: "PAT.11-12-18". This leads me to believe that L&H was using up pre-patent guards, and that this instrument may have been made shortly after the patent grant, i.e., late '18 or early '19.

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## Bill Halsey

Mug shots of #682...

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## squirrelabama

Interesting! Upon closer examination, mine has the same thing going on. Thanks for pointing that out! Thanks Billbows! -Geoff

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## Bill Halsey

Great! It would be interesting to collate a list of the double-stamped L&Hs, with their S/Ns. Thank you, Geoff.

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## Jim Garber

> Squirrelabama, here's an idea for dating your L&H. Check the patent stamp on your finger rest. I have a long-scale symmetrical Style A #682, just 8 after yours. The finger-rest bears two patent stamps. One reads: "PAT APL'D" and has been filled in with something black; the other, just below it in the usual position, reads: "PAT.11-12-18". This leads me to believe that L&H was using up pre-patent guards, and that this instrument may have been made shortly after the patent grant, i.e., late '18 or early '19.


Mine is also longscale and SN 495 so earlier than yours. It also only has the "PAT APL'D" stamped on the pickguard.

Occasional poster Keef has been compiling a listing of L&Hs from various sources. Perhaps he will chime in here. I will contact him to see if he can enlighten us further.

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## Bill Halsey

Good deal, Jim!

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## Jim Garber

I just heard from Hubert. His book about vintage Washburn/L&H instruments will be published by the end of this year. More info..

The Teagle Washburn book is all right but the catalog pages are way too small and half the book is devoted to the current Washburn company which I have very little interest in. Hubert's book should be more intensive.

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## squirrelabama

Thanks for hipping us to that book! I will definitely be acquiring a copy! I dont know anything about Hubert....but I assume since he has your recommendation, this will be a decent resource!

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## MML

Hers a pic of #70 Style B, its such a sweet mandolin, plays like butter and has the voice of an Angel.
Got this one from Dexter J, and really enjoy playing it.

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## Nat

Well, Billbows, you and I are cosmic buddies, since I've got L&H 681, one number before yours.

I went to see if I also had the faint "Pat Apl'd" stamp over the regular patent stamp. I had to look three times before I could see it, but it's there. You'd never notice it unless you knew to look for it. You can almost see it in the attached picture. It's too faint to be intelligible. 

#681 is also a long-scale, symmetrical style A, with a one-piece back. It has the pull-out extension. The instrument is in great shape, except for a little binding gap down along the treble extension (a common thing, I gather, with L&H mandos).

I have the (I assume original) rectangular case. Interestingly, the case has a cut out in its interior walls which will allow it to accommodate symmetrical or asymmetrical instruments. Don't know if this means the case came later, or if they were already contemplating/building asymmetricals at that point. I'd always assumed this was a 1918 instrument, but now that I think about it, I have nothing to substantiate that with. 

While I'll admit to finding this L&H a little harder to play than, for instance, my Phoenix neoclassical, it does have an incredible, incredible sound. Still the best E-string I've ever heard on a mandolin (with the possible exception of a D'Angelico). 

The strange little sparkles near the rims in the first photo are just lighting effects. The instrument has no cracks and the finish is not worn through at any point.

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## Nat



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## Bill Halsey

> _"Well, Billbows, you and I are cosmic buddies, since I've got L&H 681, one number before yours."_


Thanks for your post & pix, Nat -- great to find a sibling!

_"I have the (I assume original) rectangular case. Interestingly, the case has a cut out in its interior walls which will allow it to accommodate symmetrical or asymmetrical instruments."_

Mine seems to have been made for the symmetrical long-scale A...

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## Bill Halsey

BTW & FWIW: The mark in the top beside the soundhole is actually a single "bearclaw" figure in the spruce, and not a pick scratch. By the condition of the instruments on this thread, I'd say L&H owners have been a careful lot!

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## brunello97

These are real beauties. Can someone tell me when the asymmetrical A models gave way to the symmetrical ones? Or were there always both models present? What are the differences between symmetrical A models and the B models?

thanks!

Mick

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## Nat

Wish I had a case pic to show you, but my case is in storage in another state. Long story. 

It's exactly the same as Billbows', except with green felt and (as I said) a little change in the interior wall configuration so that an asymmetrical will fit in there. 

If anybody in here has an original case for their asymmetrical style A, I'd be interested to see a pic. 

I'd also be interested in knowing what strings you guys use on your A's, B's, and C's...


Brunello, my understanding is that L&H only made long-scale symmetricals until some point (circa 1920?), at which point they shifted to mainly making short-scale asymmetricals. 

Seems to me the main difference between the symmetrical A's and B's is the headstock. I also think only the A's had the retractable side extension (I could be very wrong). 

I haven't ever had a style B in my hands... but from pictures it also seems like B's had a white side binding instead of the A's black-white-black, but that's a guess.

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## Bill Halsey

Here's an A & B. The A has B/I/B binding; front, sides & back. The B has ivoroid w/black offset on front, ivoroid only on back. Only the Style A has the pullout knee-pin. I'll try to get some better detail shots soon...

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## brunello97

Thanks, Bill, that's the kind of side-by-side I was hoping to see. I have both As and Bs in my 'archive', but have been seeking more information on the distinguishing characteristics. 

I love the Dali-esque pickguard. (See his "Persistence of Memory".) What were these made of? Were they screwed right into the top (rim?) or is there a bushing/insert of some kind?

Mick

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## Bill Halsey

The finger-rest and center lamination in the neck are of vulcanised rubber, as is the headstock cover on the Style A. The finger-rest is fixed with a single (visible) screw into a brass bushing installed in the top of the point block. The rest also bears against the fingerboard, which holds it fairly rigidly, but there is also a felt "bumper" on its underside. I'll try to get some pics of these details.

BTW, note that the earlier (S/N #63) Style B rest is not cut out over the sound hole.

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## squirrelabama

Hi Nat- I use J74's on mine. Anyone out there have one of those rectangular cases for a symmetrical Style A they'd be willing to part with? I'll be back in a sec, need to post a want ad!!!......geoff:p

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## Jim Garber

> The finger-rest and center lamination in the neck are of vulcanised rubber, as is the headstock cover on the Style A.


L&H describes the neck as laminated with "vulcanized fibre" in the neck and the pickguard (they call it a guard plate) as made of "black fibre". They do mention that the tuner cover is mad of "hard rubber." BTW the patent is prob for this subtance which seems to be similar to bakelite.

Here is a page from the 1925 catalog.

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## Bill Halsey

Jim, what an interesting piece of history -- it's great to get the straight scoop on this material. Good post, thank you!

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## Bill Halsey

More A&B details...

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## Bill Halsey

Style A on the left...

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## Bill Halsey

Guard plate attachment...

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## brunello97

Ah, Bill, thanks, that is what I was imagining was under there. You say it also attaches to the fingerboard? Is that a glue joint? I don't see a ledger of some kind like on my Gibson.
Great quality photos!
Mick

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## squirrelabama

Bill- Do you know of a resource to supply/fabricate the knob on the extendable knee post for the Style A?? Mine is missing, and would love to get something on there.... any ideas? Thx- Geoff

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## Bill Halsey

Geoff, I imagine anyone with a small hobby or toolroom lathe could make the little black knob fairly easily. The original appears to be plastic, but is more likely made of the same vulcanised black stuff as the other fittings. The knob measures 0.393" dia. x 0.245" long, with a bit of a flat on the end.

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## Bill Halsey

> Ah, Bill, thanks, that is what I was imagining was under there. You say it also attaches to the fingerboard? Is that a glue joint? I don't see a ledger of some kind like on my Gibson.


Mick, the screw is the only attachment, no glue joint. When snugged down, the guard is brought tight against the angle of the side of the fingerboard and the soundboard. This arrangement is fairly solid and suspends the rest of the guard over the soundboard with about 3/16" clearance to the round felt bumper.

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## Bob DeVellis

Here's the pickguard patent illustration. The patent is a Design patent, protecting the appearance of the patented device, not its function or composition. So, if the material itself is patented, it must be under a more generic patent not specific to the pickguard.



.

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## Bob DeVellis

Here's the Design patent for the overall shape of the symmetrical A. The recurve has been exaggerated in the illustration. Also, the fact that the design, and not the construction per se, is what's being patented is underscored by the omission of the neck midline lamination in the illustration. Since that's a structural, rather than design, feature, it was left off of this Design patent (and was never patented, as far as I know).



.

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## brunello97

Great information Bob. What else do you (or anyone) know about Walter I Kirk?

Mick

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## squirrelabama

Love these old catalogue pix and patent pix....where does one find them for home use, (aka framing and decorating one's music room?) Did Kirk have an apprentice named Spock?

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## squirrelabama

Bill- Thanks for the measurments on that knob. I know someonen here in town who could probably create one for me, however I'm thinking of going with fossilized ivory or something if that is doable. May just end up w/rosewood or ebony. Thanks !!

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## Jim Garber

> I'm having an assymetrical L&H style A inspired mando built. I also feel the tuner face area is the only weak element in an otherwise perfect design (IMO). I may go with a slot head configuration while maintaining the violin scroll.


May we ask who is the builder?

Frankly I would steer away from the slothead. They are a royal pain to restring. I would prefer a flat peghead. 

Just curious: why do you say that the weak element is the tuner face area? Are you talking structurally or aesthetically?

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## markishandsome

> Frankly I would steer away from the slothead. They are a royal pain to restring.


Frankly I think that's an exaggeration

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## Bill Halsey

I'm with Jim on this one. Some years ago I made myself a slotted-head 12-string guitar -- big mistake. The headstock, not the guitar.

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## Jim Garber

My main bowlback is a slothead and while I would not trade or sell it, I never look fwd to restringing. Luckily the Calace strings I use seem to last a long time. Then again, it may soon be that time again. 

As far as the Patent question, go to Google. Click on the little arrow that says "more" and go to Patents. it is a little arcane but you will figure it out. Wastes hours of time...

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## brunello97

[QUOTE= (jgarber @ Nov. 07 2007, 20:16)]


> Just curious: why do you say that the weak element is the tuner face area? Are you talking structurally or aesthetically?


Aah, now this discussion is getting somewhere....My assumption that the aesthetics were being called into question. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Jamie, can you be more descriptive of your critique of the peghead area? I'm not trying to goad an argument or anything, just interested in hearing more how people respond to design issues.

Seen flat on, the head on these has often seemed odd to me. From an oblique angle I like them really quite a bit.

Other thoughts?

Mick

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## markishandsome

> My main bowlback is a slothead and while I would not trade or sell it, I never look fwd to restringing.


You'd have to be pretty masochistic to look forward to restringing   Sure slotheads are a little more time-consuming than the flat kind, but why let a little inconvenience get in the way of something truly important like aesthetics.

An old friend:

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## Bob DeVellis

Other than the fact that Walter I. Kirk was the principal instrument designer for Lyon & Healy, I don't know any other details about him. He's they guy whose name occurs on a wide range of utility and design patents issued to L&H in the teens and '20s. I think I've come across some additional information about him in the past but can't recall where that might have been. I'm always struck by how design and acoustic engineers who were in many respects comparable to Loar at companies other than Gibson are so obscure whereas Lloyd is a household name in the mandolin community. Kirk may not quite rise to that level but who knows. If we knew more about him, we might find that his resume' is actually pretty impressive.

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## Jim Garber

That is a nice-looking headstock on that 12-string. 

I have spoken to a few pro classical mandolin players and if it weren't for the love of a certain vintage instrument they would prefer the solid headstock.

Yes, masochistically speaking, even with the flat headstocks, I often stab myself with the end of an e-string.

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## Jim Garber

Here is my Pandini headstock. Perhaps you could adapt it with a scroll for the L&H clone.

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## Bill Halsey

I'll have to allow that the lighter weight headstock, along with a short scale & heavy strings, did achieve the desired result of attenuating the "stringy" sustain while producing a fat, punchy sound. Don't know if the characteristics of the lightweight head would carry over to the mando. 

This design was a nod to our old pal, Richard Schneider...

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## billhay4

What's the difficulty with re-stringing slotheads? Seems to me you'd just thread the string through the hole and wrap it back under itself on the other side of the post to lock it in place like I do with regular tuners.
I'm speaking out of ignorance here, but am curious as I think slotheads offer some advantages in an instrument, namely saving weight.
Thanks,
Bill

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## markishandsome

You can see some of the issues looking at my pic above. 

a. It's hard to get your fingers or the string into the slot area because it's real narrow and there's all those other strings in your way. You also can't wrap the string around the post by going over the end of the shaft as the end is embedded in the head.

b. The shafts don't have that funny tapered part that helps keep the windings neat. You can see on mine that there's a fair bit of space between individual windings on a single string. That's a recipe for an out of tune mandolin.

c. The strings can rub against the wood at the edge of the slot, which also doesn't help tuning stability and can lead to excessive breakage (followed by excessive restringing). 

Problem a. really isn't so bad unless you have fat fingers, and problems b. and c. aren't really a problem if you don't mind retuning a lot. It's getting it strung correctly, such that b. and c. are avoided, that makes it harder than non-slotted.

In summary, it's as easy as a.b.c.

Really though, in the grand scheme of things, it's not such a big deal, IMHO.

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## billhay4

Thanks, Mark, for a cogent explanation. I hadn't given it much thought beyond the weight issue.
Bill

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## JEStanek

Sorry, I've been away from the thread for a bit. I'm working with Brian Dean (www.bfolk.com) out of Montreal for this.

Here are my answers. The face plate of the style A is a weak design element aesthetically to me. It's a big blank slate (or rubber pad as the case may be). I don't see pearl inlay working in there given the fiddle head scroll.  A channeled out or slotted headstock like on a Calace / Pandini may work better. It's something Brian Dean and I are exploring. I really appreciate the comments on restringing issues/challenges on that (thanks Mark). This is all still very much at the idea stage and Brian hasn't sketched it out yet. The mando isn't due until late March April 08 (sooner than I think).

An alternative, for those familiar with Brian's work, is some relief style carving in the face plate of a standard tuning machine headstock. I really like the rosettes Brian has carved (like on lutes) in lieu of the finger rest. I'm thinking something more geometric than figurative would look cool (imagine some of the old church screens or rose window geometry with triquetas) and could be referenced in the faceplate of the headstock. 

I'm not shooting for a full on L&H Style A copy but, a Style A inspired instrument that Brian and I can play with design elements and shoot for a real elegant beauty (and for me it's hard to do too much with the asymmetrical Style A as it's almost perfect). I want minimal or no plastic (binding or tuner buttons), probably only pearl position dots on the board and side, and hopefully some kind of more eco-friendlier finish. I want a very organic feel to the instrument. And the back and sides are going to be walnut for a warmer tone.

I set a budget and we may have to sacrifice this or that to meet it. We'll see what the economy holds. I'm looking forward to sketches and then getting really serious about bringing it all together. But, this is an exciting build process and this thread is like a reference library for me. 

Jamie

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## chinatogalway

here a lovely L and H
http://www.chinatogalway.com/TOYS%20....lin.htm

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## Jim Garber

> here a lovely L and H
> http://www.chinatogalway.com/TOYS%20....lin.htm


Kieron:
So, it looks like you also have one of the earlier, long-scale models. I think part of the tone comes from the longer scale. I didn't know that they wider necks. Mine measures 30mm (1 3/16"). And your tailpiece cover is very unusual. Do you have closeups of it?

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## Jim Garber

Jamie:
 I believe you are referring to Pandini/Embergher style headstock. I can't recall seeing many Calace's with slotted headstocks. 

Here is Doug Woodley's take on the L&H. He dispensed with the scroll altogether. This is Marilynn Mair's. I have not played hers but if it is like the one Woodley (the black F2) I did play, it is exquisite.

Whoops... left off the image the first time:


Aside from the rubber stuff, I like the elegance of the scroll headstock. I think the main difficulty is making one that work with modern tuners. The tuners are like no others I have seen and must have been made especially for (or by) L&H.

In any case, I am sure that Brian and yourself will come up with a nice, aesthetically pleasing solution. I ma looking fwd to seeing it.

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## jnikora

I bought this a couple years ago from a woman in Ohio. Her alcoholic stepfather had it for years but never played it - just took it out of the case every few months or so when he was good and liquored up and bragged about how beautiful it is. At least, he could still see and didn't damage it. The action was awful when I got it, like so many I have played - especially the short scale asymmetrical A's. I sent it to Pete Langdell for a neck reset. He made me promise that I would disclose that the work had been done if I ever sold it. It's pretty hard to tell that any work was done except that it plays very well.

I'll put up a bunch of pics...

Jim

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## jnikora

Probably should have sent the front first...

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## jnikora

That is a Hamilton stand - not a fifth string tuner! Here's a closeup of the sound hole.

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## jnikora

Just a couple more - Thanks, Scott for the bandwidth and thanks for having this thread.

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## jnikora

Pete's handiwork...

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## jnikora

Fantastic tailpiece

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## Chris Baird

Jim, that is quite the beauty, here is an addition.

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## jnikora

Chris, 

That is a beauty - this is why so many of us feel it is the most beautiful aesthetic design of the period.

Here is the last one for now. The case is in great shape, too. A little wear on the logo where the strings rubbed it and a replacement leather handle - otherwise hard to tell from new.

Jim

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## Chris Baird

....

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## Bill Halsey

Jim, Chris -- spectacular instruments, thanks! S/Ns? Can you describe the guard plate attachment? Also, Jim, I notice that the center lamination in the neck is thinner than others I've seen...can you tell if it's the same "vulcanized fibre" material as in other L&H necks?

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## jnikora

Bill,

The serial is 1318 - the laminate in the neck appears to be the same vulcanized rubber that is used on the headstock overlay and the pick guard. The pick guard appears to be held on by one screw - a long small headed screw that goes through the edge of the guard all the way into the fingerboard. You can see it here in the picture. There must be other locater pins to stabilize it. Fascinating - I thought Lynn Dudenbostel had invented the system to float the guard over the top. There is absolutely nothing touching the top or rim of the mandolin!

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## twaaang

Am I seeing compensated bridges on some of the above? My Style B (SN around #670, I don't have it right here) has a straight one, and the intonation is just fine. -- Paul

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## Django Fret

Sorry for the picture quality compared to the rest in this thread. Here is an A and a C that I owned a couple of years ago. It does show the difference in the scale length and their relative sizes. 

I still have the A, and it is serial number 794 and does not have the double stamped pickguard with the patent dates. It looks like this one was made after they used those guards up, but before they went to the asymmetrical style. It also has the pull out piece in the lower bout that I heard was designed to fit into a vest pocket for easier playing while standing.

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## Jim Garber

> Am I seeing compensated bridges on some of the above? My Style B (SN around #670, I don't have it right here) has a straight one, and the intonation is just fine.


I would think that all of these would have compensated bridges. This is a Washburn labelled A 2199 (not mine).

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## brunello97

Fabulous pictures! Thanks to each of you for posting them. Jamie, FWIW, I'm growing to like the 'quiet' design of the unadorned headstock face. It is true, though that the longer scale models are more elegant with such an elaborated headstock. I like the 'Marilyn Mair' model but do think the wings on the headstock are a bit hefty. The more clipped version on Django's C model are more to my liking.

Jim, do you know what the differences are between the models marketed as L+H and those as Washburn?

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> Jim, do you know what the differences are between the models marketed as L+H and those as Washburn?


The specs page I posted was from a 1924-5 catalog. At that point they were labelled Washburn. I think it was only in the last few years that they had the Washburn label. In the 1920 catalog they were called "Lyon & healy Own Make" so somewhere in between those years they transitioned.

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## jnikora

Gads! What great shots! Jim - that Washburn is PRISTINE. I noticed that a lot of the Washburns do not have leg pegs. I also think they are later - dunno why they changed - I think it had something to do with their business - one of their middle names was Washburn. Maybe they "restructured" or maybe it was just a marketing ploy. Mine is a Washburn and not really a "Professional A" but a Washburn "Style 5382". I lusted after one for years and finally ended up with one.

Jim

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## chinatogalway

l and h

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## chinatogalway

l and h

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## squirrelabama

Interesting tail piece cover there Andy. Can we get a close up of that?

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## Jim Garber

> Gads! What great shots! Jim - that Washburn is PRISTINE. I noticed that a lot of the Washburns do not have leg pegs. I also think they are later - dunno why they changed - I think it had something to do with their business - one of their middle names was Washburn. Maybe they "restructured" or maybe it was just a marketing ploy. Mine is a Washburn and not really a "Professional A" but a Washburn "Style 5382". I lusted after one for years and finally ended up with one.
> 
> Jim


George *Washburn* Lyon was one of the guys. They used Washburn for their upper line of bowlbacks. I am not sure why they switched other than the fact that Washburn was maybe more well-known -- some sort of marketing ploy. Oddly enough these wonderful instruments were made (like the Loars) at the tail end of the mandolin boom. Strange, right?

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## girldingo

I just noticed that some of the pickguards are cut out around the oval hole and some aren't. My L & H "C" has the straight across the hole pickguard, the SN is 450. I love this mandolin. I'm just about to put some Lenzner strings on it; I've tried Dogal, Argentine & D'Addario J73, so far I've liked the Dogal's the best - but, I'm looking for the perfect combo. 
I don't have a photo right now, maybe later when I have the energy to take my camera out of the bag.

Ilene

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## chinatogalway

this is the early tailpiece before the patent one in early 1918, more basic but very beautiful i think !

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## markishandsome

This thread has inspired me to L+H-ize the headstock of a guitar I'm working on:

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## squirrelabama

Hye, can you make me one of those L&H-izers? You could affix one to just about anything....like the hood of my car!! Cool carving!! -geoff:D

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## Django Fret

if you can settle for one with no flame, here is one that might do the trick:

No frills generic L & H scroll substitute

NFI, but takes a while to download. #All you need is a saw, a vice. some glue, and luthier skills and you might just have it made...

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## brunello97

I don't mean to take this thread back down from the Stratosphere, but here is my humble Washburn 115, which I broke out today cause the air was feeling just right. In all its modestness it sounded fantastic, in all fairness richer in tone and more appealing than my equally modest Italian bowls of the same era. Sturdy and 'broad shouldered' in a Sandburg-ian sense. The quality of rosewood used on the bowl seemingly out of place in this price point.

I'm saving for the big L+H A and I hope one comes my way one day. In the meantime, I've got a small piece of the action.

Mick

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## Rob C

For those of you looking for a Lyon and Healy replica, Pete Langdell makes some beauties. He's still working away up in Vermont. 

www.rigelinstruments.com/custom.shtml

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## chinatogalway

http://www.amazon.com/History-Washbu...5045534&sr=8-1 

and a new book with EVERYTHING you would want to kno about them.

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## Jim Garber

> I just heard from Hubert. His book about vintage Washburn/L&H instruments will be published by the end of this year. More info..
> 
> The Teagle Washburn book is all right but the catalog pages are way too small and half the book is devoted to the current Washburn company which I have very little interest in. Hubert's book should be more intensive.


Sorry, Keiron -- already mentioned.

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## ejkauf99

This is my L&H model C serial # 443 that I bought at an antique shop eleven years ago. The back had split at the center seam, and was repaired in a alright. The binding has also shrunk away from the end of the fingerboard. She plays, and sound great.

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## ejkauf99

Here is a shot of the back.

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## Linda Binder

> Hye, can you make me one of those L&H-izers? You could affix one to just about anything....like the hood of my car!! Cool carving!! -geoff:D


I took this picture of a car belonging to a luthier friend after he added a hood ornament.

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## squirrelabama

What a cool shot! Thanks Linda! -geoff:D

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## Man-Doughnut

I have a two-point L&H mandocello - I hope to borrow a digital camera tomorrow so I can post some pics. Meanwhile, does anyone know what string guages or what pre-made set would be appropriate?

Thanks,
Brad

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## nar

Hi Brad I use D'Addario mandocello strings on my L&H mandocello
Neil

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## markishandsome

> I have a two-point L&H mandocello - I hope to borrow a digital camera tomorrow so I can post some pics.


Hmmm, so you own a $10,000 mandocello but not a $100 digital camera? At least you've got your priorities straight  

Can't wait to see the pics!

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## resophonic

This is a recent purchase from Ebay. I have been looking for a good 4 string banjolin for a while and came across this piece, I have not seen another like it. It is in line with my other restoration projects for a good cleaning and set up. 

I don't recall having seen the tension hoop and hook hardware on any banjos other than those with the Washburn label. This has the Lyon and Healy "Own Make" label. The headstock is similar to some L&H mandolins seen but I have not run across one with the extra carved details on the right and left sides.

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## resophonic

One day I will master posting pictures....

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## resophonic

Neck and headstock.

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## resophonic

Headstock.

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## resophonic

Back.

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## resophonic

Back detail.

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## MML

That 4 string is way cool, I was checking that out on ebay
nice score! I too have never seen one like it...uh wheres Jim G when you need him...........

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## ruffo

Here is a picture of my Lyon and Healy #372 'B' model, dtd Sept 20, 1920

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## ruffo

let me try again

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## ruffo

and another shot of the front. beautiful little mandolin that belonged to a Tango player.

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## ruffo

and that beautiful little Art Deco headstock.

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## Steve Weeks

I'm trying to figure out where to get a url for an image of my L&H "B" (serial #41). Am I missing some easy way to post a jpg?
Steve

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## JEStanek

Steve, 

Welcome to the Café. Take a look at this tutorial for posting photos on the Café.

Jamie

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## Steve Weeks

Thanks, Jamie! I'll work on that tomorrow. I'm hoping to light a fire under my ...er... fingers and start playing more.  
Steve
BTW, I am a 7-gallon blood donor and have done platelets about 25 times.

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## Steve Weeks

Here's my "B"!
Steve

Edit: still working on getting the image on. :-(

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## danb

Kieran, you should post the case and case candy with your L&H

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## Steve Weeks

OK. Here is my "B"! Eventually I'll figure out how large the image can be...
Steve

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## JEStanek

Steve,
When you use the Add Reply button your image can be up to ~153KB. The limit is on filesize and file type (GIF, JPG).

Nice looking style B, too!

Jamie

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## Michael Wolf

I'd like to put my L & H Style B in here. I bought it a few weeks ago and I think it has a really special sound. Clear and full and it seems to be louder than I expected from such a short scaled intrument.

----------


## Michael Wolf

back

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## Michael Wolf

side

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## Michael Wolf

Headstock

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## Steve Weeks

OK, I'm trying a larger image. This one was taken with a flash.
Steve

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## Steve Weeks

Here's the back.
Steve
EDIT: Shoot- you can't see the grain. Lighten it up a bit; it's purty. :-)

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## Steve Weeks

A pretty low serial number. I wonder when this one was made.
Steve

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## BradKlein

In fact, ALL the L&H mandolins that I've seen have had low serial numbers of 2 or 3 digits. Does anyone have even a VERY rough estimate of how many instruments were made by this company? 

I would not be surprised if the numbers were much lower than Gibson and Martin were producing in this period, but could it be as low as just a few thousand spread across three or four models?

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## BlueMountain

1. I have a very nice Boosey & Hawkes Imperial clarinet made of hard rubber, just like the L&H headstock cover and pickguard. The Imperial is usually made of wood and a very fine clarinet made in England, a professional-level instrument, so finding one of rubber is unusual. It doesn't sound as good as a wood Imperial or a Buffet R13 or something, but it sounds remarkably good. No one on here has mentioned the acoustical properties of hard rubber. (Far superior to any plastic clarinets I've played.) It's possible that the rubber in the neck may have contributed to the tone (though I doubt it). In any case, I doubt that it harmed it.

2. A couple days ago I drove a thousand miles in one day to purchase Lyon & Healey Style A #94. Excellent action. It had a hairline crack on both sides of the neck at the headstock that has been caught in time and repaired, but the rubber strip was NOT cracked. So there!

3. The strings had not been changed since it was inherited circa 1965. They were extra light strings, approximately the same as D'Addario J62s, but the E strings were 0.011. Remarkably nice tone for 40 year old strings! I'm looking forward to trying it with new strings, but a couple of the cog gears are cracked and need to be replaced, as they won't turn all the way around. So I may not get to play it for a couple months.

4. I'll post closeups of this special intonated tailpiece, as no one has yet. 

5. The bridge seems to be original. It has a cardboard shim glued to the bottom. I haven't removed it yet, but I assume it was added later and that it may be removed. Right? Have any of you found such a shim under the bridge? The action is great, about 1/8", with no sign of sinking, and I didn't find any buzzes. It was played a lot, and the original owner had the frets leveled at some point (but not polished), and they still have wear, but the wear will dress out easily, and then the shim shouldn't be necessary (unless that's part of the bridge.

----------


## Capt. E

Ok, I just saw a L&H Style B in a shop. Original Case, bridge replaced (but they have the original). It has had an electic pick-up installed under the pick guard. In excellent condition. Plays as well as an Altman I tried recently. I also compared it to two vintage Gibson and think this L&H plays and sounds better. What should I expect to pay for such a thing.  They have $2200 on it.

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## Steve Weeks

I had an e-mail exchange with one of the folks at U.S. Music ("Washburn"). He's going to see what he can find about my #41 "B". :-)
Steve

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## man dough nollij

This one's on E-Bay now, <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Vega-Cittern-Cylinder-Back-1918-1919-w-OHSC_W0QQitemZ190224300938QQihZ009QQcategoryZ11902  7
QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohos  ting" target="_blank">here</a>. Also see new thread about this one under Looking for Information.

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## Bill Snyder

Lee, that is a nice looking Vega, but Vegas were not a Lyon and Healy product.

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## gweetarpicker

I'm looking for a L&H Style A Mandola to complete my set if anyone runs across one for sale!

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## Steve Weeks

> I'm looking for a L&H Style A Mandola to complete my set if anyone runs across one for sale!


The guy at Washburn told me that the mandolas were rare and worth a lot of money, FWIW. Personally, I've never seen one. :-(
Steve

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## man dough nollij

> Lee, that is a nice looking Vega, but Vegas were not a Lyon and Healy product.


D'oh! You see? That's proof that being upside down has messed with my brain. Better stay away from sharp implements, I guess.

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## Jim Garber

> I had an e-mail exchange with one of the folks at U.S. Music ("Washburn"). He's going to see what he can find about my #41 "B". :-)
> Steve


I am not sure if anyone at Washburn has any more info than is in the recently-published book by Hubert Pleijsier. He says:




> Serial numbers for the Lyon & Healy A-C styles between 1917 and the mid 1920s are in the 1-2,300 range. Research data from surviving instruments suggests that Styles A-C were each numbered separately prior to 1925 and that A style mandocellos and mandolas were akso numbered separately from the standard A style mandolins.


I don't think that L&H kept any of their records so there is not real way to know exactly when yours was made. I would say close to 1917 tho. 

BTW production totals for the years 1915-22 were about 650 per year according to Hubert.

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## Steve Weeks

> I am not sure if anyone at Washburn has any more info than is in the recently-published book by Hubert Pleijsier.
> 
> I don't think that L&H kept any of their records so there is not real way to know exactly when yours was made. I would say close to 1917 tho.


Thanks for that information, Jim. I think the guy at Washburn said he would use that very book. If any interesting information comes my way, I will post it.
Steve

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## mrmando

Pioneer Music in Portland had an L&H mandola and mandocello for a while ... very cool instruments.

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## BlueMountain

Style A, Number 94

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## BlueMountain

Here are some close-ups taken as I disassembled the instrument for cleaning. I haven't seen any good shots of the intonated tailpiece, so I thought they might be of interest to some of you.

----------


## BlueMountain

With the locking tongue closed. Note how the tongue presses the strings against the intonation humps by way of little metal plates, one for each set of strings, or so it seems.

----------


## BlueMountain

Tongue open on tailpiece. Now we can see that it's not four separate plates, but one plate with slots cut in it, forming four little tongues, each cut to the right length.

----------


## BlueMountain

Relationship of the tailpiece to the body. Note the intonation bumps.

----------


## BlueMountain

Back of tailpiece, showing the way the tongue is held down. There must be a patent of this bridge, which is so much more complex than most. Can someone find it? Evidently, the intonation bumps are stamped into the tailpiece. The two tails that come through are part of the intonation plate, holding it on and perhaps providing a sort of spring function.

----------


## BlueMountain

The tailpiece from another angle, without strings. The intonation plate tails make more sense in this photo.

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## BlueMountain

A close-up of the intonated ebony bridge. Note the Pat.Appl'd For stamp on the pickguard, barely visible.

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## BlueMountain

Underside of the hard rubber pickguard. Notice that it's quite thick, but ground thinner toward the lower edge. There's a round felt pad that doesn't normally touch the body. There's a piece of fiber glued to the pickguard where it butts up against the fretboard and the body. The brass piece inset into one of the solid points to hold the pickguard bolt is a very nice touch.

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## BlueMountain

The brass bushing nut or whatever it's called can be better seen here. Notice the divots in the fretboard. Even after dressing the frets and fretboard, they are still faintly visible. They are on the E strings ALL THE WAY UP, most of the way up on A strings, to about the 9th fret on the D strings, and about the 7th fret on the G string. This instrument seems to have been purchased new around 1917 by Elizabeth N. Young (possibly F. rather than N.), of 53 Sylvan Place, Nutley, NJ. She taught mandolin and other stringed instruments for decades and played in mandolin orchestras. I have a program from a 1947 concert in New Jersey in which she was one of the first mandolins, and I think the divots support this. She played all the way up and down the neck, and she did it a lot. She continued to attend mandolin orchestra concerts at Carnegie Hall into the 60s, and she died around 1965. She claimed at that time to be around 65, but as she had sons about that age, this seems unlikely. She was probably born before 1880. I got this from her granddaughter, also about 65, and she doesn't play. She'd simply kept it in her home in Toledo for forty years in its shaped case (with a Lyon & Healy plate inside). Nutley, NJ is about six miles north of Newark. Elizabeth Young's husband was the mayor.

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## JEStanek

Here's your L&H Tailpeice patent. I remembered seeing a reference to it from the Homepage's This day in Mandolin History.

Jamie

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## BlueMountain

Thanks for the patent, Jamie! That Kirk seems to deserve a lot more acclaim than he's received to date.

Here's an accurate photo of what the top looked like under the pickguard. The black stuff came off the pickguard, why, I don't know. It came off the top with the help of water, but etched the gloss a little. That will return when it's polished.

----------


## BlueMountain

I haven't seen good close-ups of the inner workings of the tuners, either, so here are some. Completely uncleaned after probably 91 years without being opened.

----------


## BlueMountain

Another angle. Note the two maple strips in the neck (actually they are wedges) and the strip of vulcanized rubber.

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## BlueMountain

I see that the routing actually leaves nothing but the rubber at the top end.

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## BlueMountain

Inside view. Note that the cog gears are forced onto the string post, then the post is peened to tighten it against the gear. The two screws at the bottom attach the brass plate that covers the side to the steel plate that holds the gears.

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## BlueMountain

Another view. Pretty clean for 91 years old. Between a fitted gear housing like this and a rubber cover, it's hard for dust to get in.

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## BlueMountain

Another view.

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## BlueMountain

Both sides out.

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## Jim Garber

Wonderful photos, Ed. Thanks so much for posting them. You are a brave man for dissembling your L&H.

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## brunello97

Thanks, Ed, for the great photos! I feel like I just watched a great Saturday morning TV show. (Minus any commercials.) A really fabulous instrument. I appreciated seeing the tailpiece detail. 

Mick

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## Steve Weeks

Very nice work, Ed. What do you lube those gears with? I've been using a tiny bit of 3-in-1 oil on my "B" which has exposed gears. Since lubing requires more work, I imagine you use a light grease(?).

Here's another minor issue: the tailpiece cover on my "B" is slightly loose. It doesn't vibrate or fall off by itself, but it is almost that loose. How would you tighten that up? I'm guessing the part of the cover that slides onto the tailpiece could be slightly "squeezed" to provide a better "interference" fit. Thanks for any suggestions.
Steve

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## Bill Snyder

You should not use 3-in-1. It will eventually get all gunked up. You should clean them good and use something like Tri-flow w/teflon.

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## Steve Weeks

> You should not use 3-in-1. It will eventually get all gunked up. You should clean them good and use something like Tri-flow w/teflon.


Thanks, Bill. I have some of that stuff.  
Steve

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## BlueMountain

Yes. I soak the whole gear setup, buttons and all, in Naptha while turning the buttons and scrubing with a toothbrush. Then drying. Then lube with Tri-Flow. (Note that the new bottles of Tri-Flow no longer say that they have teflon, but they do.) This is a light grease that goes on very fluid. So you should probably remove the tuners before lubing them unless you want to risk flowing grease into the wood under the tuners.

Tailpiece. It's not a difficult fix, but if you do it by bending the cover, that will show, so you should bend the tailpiece itself. I recommend that you remove your strings and remove the entire tailpiece. Then, with pliers, carefully bend one of the ears the cover slides over until the fit is as tight as you want it. Be careful. You may only need to bend it as much as the thickness of an E string to have it right. Keep sliding on the cover until it's just right and not too tight.

Number 94 is now clean, polished, back together, gorgeous to look at, and exquisitely voiced. Clean, distinct tone for two full octaves on that E string, and extremely low action with no buzzing. Delightful.

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## Steve Weeks

> Number 94 is now clean, polished, back together, gorgeous to look at, and exquisitely voiced. Clean, distinct tone for two full octaves on that E string, and extremely low action with no buzzing. Delightful.


I'm glad to hear that the instrument survived the overhaul ;-). It's in good hands in more ways than one, apparently!

Since you mention the low action, what would that be in terms of clearance at the 12th fret? I'm wondering where my "B" should be. The action seems fine to me, but I'm mostly playing down near the nut. As far as I know, mine has never been serviced (what... 85-90 years?) so maybe it should be looked at.

Another question: do you polish your tailpiece and cover? Mine are a wee bit tarnished, but I don't want to remove any patina.

Thanks for the advice!
Steve

----------


## Cuba Ridge

What do ya'll about this style b that sold last week at eldery?

http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/90U-5027.htm

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## Steve Weeks

> What do ya'll about this style b that sold last week at eldery?
> 
> http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/90U-5027.htm


Nice! But I like mine better ;-)
When did they start putting the extendable peg on the side? Mine (#41) doesn't have it. I'm not sorry; the one at Elderly looked like it had a crack that might have been related to that peg. Still a nice-looking axe, and if it sounds good... :-)
Ste5e

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## BlueMountain

Steve, the action on #94 is
G string: 4/64" (1/8") at the 12th fret and 5/64" at the top fret.
E string: 3/64" at the 12th fret and 4/64" at the top fret.

At present, I have D'Addario J62s on it, which I think is the lightest they make. I realize that these can use J74s, but I wanted to try these, and they are plenty for driving this very sensitive mandolin.

I scraped off the thin cardboard that was glued under the bridge. It now sounds a lot brighter and more penetrating. This leads me to wonder if the shim wasn't put on not for height (it was 0.015" thick) but to help the mandolin blend in with all those other mandolins. I'd consider this a strong solo instrument. It's certainly a mile higher than any Gibson As from the teens that were so popular in mandolin orchestras (at least, the ones I've heard). Compared to the L&H, those are more like Johnsons.

----------


## Steve Weeks

> Steve, the action on #94 is
> G string: 4/64" (1/8") at the 12th fret and 5/64" at the top fret.
> E string: 3/64" at the 12th fret and 4/64" at the top fret.


Thanks! I'll check to see if mine is in the ballpark. I don't suppose string height is something that would be specific to a particular model (?). I've been using light gauge strings, and find that the sound level is more than adequate.
Steve

----------


## BlueMountain

Well, after thinking I was done with #94 back in May, when I tuned it, it one of the tuners didn't work right. I removed the tuners (only way to see inside--see photos on p. 7 of this thread--and found that two of the cog gears were cracked, probably from the pressure of having the string post squashed onto the gear (they don't use screws--see photos on p. 7, again). Not too easy to find replacements, and the lack of screws made it more difficult. I tried several approaches, such as dental technicians who make bridges--they're good with metal. None was willing. After trying various jewelry stores, I was sent to one that does repairs using LASER WELDING. Most brazing and welding is not very easy when the gear has to stay on the post, as everything gets very hot, and the brazing can wick between the gear and the plate. With laser welding, the weld is done so fast and in such a small area--and without solder--that there is no collateral damage. Anyway, after waiting for two months for the jeweler to call, I finally went back and picked up the tuners. They'd forgotten to call. Now, the cracks in these cog gears was in both cases between two of the teeth and ran through to the center post. The cracks opened the space just a bit too much to turn past the worm gear. What the repair guy did was to squeeze the cogs until the cracks closed, then weld them. How big is the weld? Look at one of the cog gears on your mandolin. Look at the space between two teeth. That not very wide. He put two welds into each of the cracks. You can see them with a magnifying glass, two tiny round dots. Anyway, one now turns perfectly. The other usually does, but sometimes catches. I find that if I tug out for a second on the button while tuning, I go right past the catch, and there is no more problem. That's not perfect, but it's a lot better than something that doesn't work.

Now that it's done, I wanted to share the final photos. This is the original Lyon & Healy case. It's beaten up, but works. The white area near the (broken) hinge ribbon is the Lyon & Healy label.

----------


## BlueMountain

Here's the tailpiece. The finish is worn off the top where the forearm rests, due to decades of playing by a woman who taught mandolin and played in a mandolin orchestra. When I got it, I thought there was a long crack on the top, but after studying it with a magnifying glass under good light, I discovered that probably someone (some kid?) ran a pick down the top. The finish isn't broken, but it's dented. No cracks on the body.

----------


## BlueMountain

Oops. Here's the one that shows the wear on the edge of the top.

----------


## BlueMountain

Front in the morning light.

----------


## BlueMountain

Headstock

----------


## BlueMountain

Another view

----------


## BlueMountain

Back of headstock

----------


## BlueMountain

When I got this home and examined it in good light, I discovered a tiny crack in the neck below the headstock. This has been glued. Note that the varnish has worn through on the neck in the first position.

----------


## BlueMountain

As mentioned earlier, the action is 4/64th" at the 12th fret for the G string and 5/64th at the top fret. The action is 3/64" at the 12th fret on the E string. The frets seem to be original. They have been dressed and polished, so there is no string wear on them, and there is no buzzing. The nut and the bridge seem to be original.

----------


## BlueMountain

Another headstock shot.

----------


## BlueMountain

There are tiny scratches on the back from rubbing against clothing and all, but they could be buffed out. I only cleaned it the instrument with water.

----------


## BlueMountain

Another back view.

----------


## BlueMountain

Front view. The leg rest is there, but it's missing the button, and someone has pushed it in past the threads. I'd have made a replacement, but I haven't figured out how to push the leg back out again.

----------


## BlueMountain

Another front view.

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## BlueMountain

The sound is simply wonderful. Clear and pure, loud and extremely well-balanced. At the moment I have J73 strings on it. Before I had J62 strings. The difference between the two is that the J73 G strings are .038, rather than .034. Both work fine. I think I'd tend to go with what is lighter, as it sounds just as good. Why not? This would be marvelous for a professional classical mandolinist.

Want to hear it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exusVHs-27o

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## Steve Weeks

Nice looking and sounding mandolin. I've been playing mine some more- went to a jam session last night and realized I have a lot of work to do! No one seems to be teaching in my area (Lake County, IL). I've found some on-line resources that are helpful... at least making me feel like I'm doing *something*.

I needed new strings, and the local store only had GHS "medium" in stock. I bought them, but I'm having second thoughts about putting them on. Apart from being a bit loud, will there be any risk of damage to the neck from the greater tension?
Thanks for the information!
Steve

----------


## Bob A

FWIW, I've been using Dogal Calace medium strings on my L&H A, and I'm very pleased. If there is a downside, it is thatthe windings are not polished, so slides are not easy until you wear them in for a while. They also seem to need some time to play in before they get The Sound. But then they last and last.

(There are several different types and tension levels of Dogal strings; the set I use is RW92. RW92b is a lighter-tension set, used on old bowlbacks. Bernunzio stocks a bunch of different types).

----------


## Steve Weeks

Thanks, Bob. Maybe I'll try them.
Steve

----------


## Tripp Johnson

Well, I just worked my way through this thread and thanks to all. Very informative, but OMG am I MASing for an L&H now!

----------


## gweetarpicker

A happy family

----------


## Michael Barnett

Not mine, but a friend/co-worker rescued this C-style Washburn version from her mother-in-law's basement. The story is that her husband's grandfather bought this new back in the day, but it's been put away for many years. My friend new it was in the basement, but had never seen it before, but wanted it badly, so she finally asked if she could have it. She had no idea what kind of mandolin it was, and nobody else in the family did either, or seemed to care.

She got it, but was a bit heartbroken when she opened it up, and found the head broken off. See pics. She wants to at least get it back into playing shape, and is looking for someone who will do a good repair job, but also doesn't want to mortgage the house to do so.

Can anyone recommend a good repair person in her area that she can take it to, to have a look? She lives in Round Rock, Il, about equidistant from Chicago and Milwaukee, and can certainly travel to either of those, but would like to know if anyone knows anyplace closer.

Any advice appreciated. She and I are both dying to hear how the old girl sounds.
Please also let me know if I should be posting this in a different forum.

Thanks!

----------


## Michael Barnett

Ok, that didn't work. Trying pics again:

----------


## Michael Barnett

Couple more:

----------


## jeff mercer

Hey, Micheal

I'm sure someone will chime in with some suggestions, but meanwhile you could post these pictures in the "Builders & Repair" section of the Cafe, where you might get more of a feel for what'll be involved in resurrecting this mando..

Pretty mandolin, & most certainly worth saving, but I fear it may not be a "cheap" repair..It might just be glare from the flash, but it looks like someone has oversprayed the back ( from an earlier repair to those back cracks ?), & also looks like someone has been "at" the fingerboard with some kind of abrasive..but the face looks pretty immaculate, anyway  :Smile: 

Someone will help, let us know how you go..

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## Jim Garber

It is easier to find a repair person to fix this than it will be to find an original tailpiece cover. I used to know of a couple but they are long gone. Too bad.

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## Michael Barnett

> Hey, Micheal
> 
> I'm sure someone will chime in with some suggestions, but meanwhile you could post these pictures in the "Builders & Repair" section of the Cafe, where you might get more of a feel for what'll be involved in resurrecting this mando..
> 
> Pretty mandolin, & most certainly worth saving, but I fear it may not be a "cheap" repair..It might just be glare from the flash, but it looks like someone has oversprayed the back ( from an earlier repair to those back cracks ?), & also looks like someone has been "at" the fingerboard with some kind of abrasive..but the face looks pretty immaculate, anyway 
> 
> Someone will help, let us know how you go..


Thanks Jeff. I'll post over there. She sent some more detailed pics, in better focus yesterday. It's gonna need a LOT of work, as it has a few more issues, but I think she's willing to do it. Looks like the family did quite a few of thier own "repairs" before storing it in the basement. Hope she can get it resurrected.

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## Geoff Barber

This is my Lyon & Healy Style B mandolin which is pretty close to being my favourite mandolin (I say close because I can't actually choose a favourite). It is not the one I play in our orchestras as the sound is different from the rest of the orchestra (which has assembled a collection of mandolins and mandolas all made by a local luthier to ensure a consistent sound).
However, the Lyon & Healy is great for solo, duo or trio playing - the volume and projection of the sound is excellent, the notes play true as you go down the neck, and are evenly balanced across the strings. On top of all that, the mandolin looks a work of art in it's own right. It is also very light and easily balanced on the lap for playing in a seated position. These are truly wonderful instruments and the people who made them were superb craftsmen. 
Their sound is half way between a bowl back and a flatback, and they are really for classical mandolin music.
I personally prefer the Style B as I do not like the look of the scroll on the Style A. It looks heavy and not balanced, and a little pretentious.

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## Michael Barnett

> Hey, Micheal
> 
> I'm sure someone will chime in with some suggestions, but meanwhile you could post these pictures in the "Builders & Repair" section of the Cafe, where you might get more of a feel for what'll be involved in resurrecting this mando..
> 
> Pretty mandolin, & most certainly worth saving, but I fear it may not be a "cheap" repair..It might just be glare from the flash, but it looks like someone has oversprayed the back ( from an earlier repair to those back cracks ?), & also looks like someone has been "at" the fingerboard with some kind of abrasive..but the face looks pretty immaculate, anyway 
> 
> Someone will help, let us know how you go..


I did post in the Builder & Repair section, and talked with the very nice Gail Hester about it. Looks like my friend is gonna put this one out to pasture. Very expensive repairs. Cost-prohibitive. Still something very cool to have, and the family history that goes along with it is priceless. Thought I'd give a quick update. Btw, the pics of all the other L&H's here having me MASing for a style B. Anyone selling?  :Smile:

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## Geoff Barber

Does anyone know what would be the closest match to the original strings used on Lyon & Healy mandolins? I use Tomastik mediums and the sound is great for classical music. I also had a new bridge made for these as they require different compensations to brass wound strings (I have kept the original bridge of course).

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## Travis Finch

Hey everybody,

Very excited today...the Calton I ordered for my Pro A (1094 for posterity) arrived. This is my main instrument so I end up hauling it to college and back virtually every day. What a relief to have a user-friendly (i.e. backpack-able) case that will protect the instrument.  :Smile: 

Here's some pics for those that would like a peek.









ETA: Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Many thanks to Keith Calton (Calton UK) who was great to work with and very helpful in getting this case made. For those interested, he should now have the plans to make up one of these as this was his first one.

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## Bob A

First one? My Calton, s/n 8172, was made several years ago for my L&H style A. (My case was made in Canada, but I assume the company is the same?).

Perfect fit, of course. Great cases, but a bit heavy. Glad I don't gave to lug a guitar around in one. The corollary is that it will outlast me, and be going strong into the 22nd century. 

As to strings, I've enjoyed Dogal Calace rw 92 (medium gauge) on my instrument. The drawback is they're a bit toothy, and it's hard to slide until they wear down a bit. I have no idea what strings were originally used on these; Black Diamond was popular back then, I believe.

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## Travis Finch

Hi Bob,

I should say that this is the first case Keith has made for a Pro A. I got the impression that while there is a connection between the two shops, they are run fairly independently. 

Oh, and on the string issue...I usually have Thomastiks, but if I want a bit more bite I use Fisoma polished silver with a Hannabach e. Less string zing with the polished set and a whole lot less clunky.

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## Nate S.

I am curious about year of manufacture.  I have a symmetrical points L&H  with serial number 49 Style A
and a new one (to me new, that is) that was probably erroneously? labeled 1912 by the dealer.  Its serial number is 29 SPCL.  It is asymmetrical.

Both are 13 3/4 "

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## mrmando

> I am curious about year of manufacture.  I have a symmetrical points L&H  with serial number 49 Style A
> and a new one (to me new, that is) that was probably erroneously? labeled 1912 by the dealer.  Its serial number is 29 SPCL.  It is asymmetrical.
> 
> Both are 13 3/4 "


You know they're pre-1923 because of the scale length. The serial number on the asymmetrical one kind of throws me, but perhaps it was part of a special lot (hence the "SPCL") that were numbered separately. 

If these have original tailpieces, you can check the patent date thereon. They were patented in 1919.

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## Nate S.

Thanks for the tip about the tailpiece patent dates.  I notice too that the #49 (symmetrical points) has the pickguard fastened with as visible screw to the edge of the mandolin while, the asymmetrical model has it attached by a very thin screw into the fingerboard.  Does that have any utility in  discovering year of manufacture??
Thanks again for your help.
Nate S.

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## mrmando

I don't recall seeing that construction detail in Hubert's book. Hm.

Does either or both have the pull-out peg?

Do both of them have "Lyon & Healy" labels ... or does one or the other have a "Washburn" label? 

If you're feeling brave, post photos. They're both Style A, right?

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## Nate S.

well, both are indeed L&H, with appropriate labels.  Not sure what you mean by peg, but the asymmetrical model does have a little screw-like brass or steel button protruding from the tailpiece, presumably for a strap.
There is an interesting difference I just noticed:  the symmetrical model has a patent date on the tailpiece of  1919.  The asymmetrical model simply says: "patent appld. for"   So perhaps it is indeed an older one with unique numbering.
As to photos: I dont have a digital camera but hope to get someone to take pictures and will post as soon as I have them. 

Thanks for your followup,
Nate

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## Jim Garber

> There is an interesting difference I just noticed:  the symmetrical model has a patent date on the tailpiece of 1919.  The asymmetrical model simply says: "patent appld. for"   So perhaps it is indeed an older one with unique numbering.


That is strange... my symmetrical has a patent applied for TP. The asymm. should be the newer of the two. According to Hubert's book, they changed around 1921 to the asymm with the shorter scale.

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## mrmando

Yeah, the tailpiece thing doesn't compute with me either ... unless somebody switched out tailpieces, or the factory dumped all its tailpieces in a box and paid no attention to the patent dates. I've heard of long-scale asymmetrical A's, and it doesn't surprise me that one of them would be marked "special," but I wouldn't expect it to have a pre-'19 tailpiece.

Hubert's book has good information but isn't organized in a way that makes it easy to look up things quickly. I sure am enjoying it, however.

Oh, the "pull-out peg" is a little metal doohickey that comes out of the treble side of some Style A's (and some B's, I think). The idea was to provide a player with a way of stabilizing the instrument by sticking the peg into the watch pocket on his vest. Awfully sexist, but there you have it. Maybe Hubert's book gives the time period for mandolins bearing pull-out pegs, and maybe it doesn't ... I forget.

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## Nate S.

Hubert's book may be wrong in this regard:  this asymmetrical model has the longer scale (13 3/4"), and both the method of attaching the pickguard to the fingerboard(thin screw into fingerboard)  and the strap button protruding from the tailpiece seem idiosyncratic as well, not to mention the Patent appld for mark on the tailpiece.

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## Jim Garber

Nate, you may just have a transitional model or a custom order. I have never seen an asymmetrical one with the long scale but I am sure that it is possible.

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## Nate S.

Jim, Martin--thank you both very much for your thoughtful remarks.
I have learned some thing, even tho a bit of puzzle remains.
N.

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## keef

> Nate, you may just have a transitional model or a custom order. I have never seen an asymmetrical one with the long scale but I am sure that it is possible.


As usual I would side with Jim here. The serial number of the asymmetrical one is puzzling, since the earliest asymmetrical Style A I have listed is somewhere near the 1,000 serial number range. Is the 1912 indication written on the label, or just an estimate from the dealer of the instrument's year of manufacture?

The clue here is the 'SPCL' indication on the label - it must have been a custom order. I have seen the 'Special' indication only once before I think on a L&H flatback mandolin label, and that very likely seemed to be a one-off as well, as it was not a catalog model. 

Your #49 was likely made in 1917, when Style A was introduced. The tailpiece with the 1919 indication can't be original to that mandolin, but put on later as a replacement of the original (certainly not the first time this happened to these instruments). 

If you want to go the period correct route (for both instruments), just swap out both tailpieces and voila!

By the way - I think I've explained to Jim that there were still a number of uncleared issues regarding the 100 or so Style A-C mandos that I have data on. Please don't consider the Washburn book as the final word on these fine instruments - maybe Jim can write that book!

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## zookster

I DO own an asymmetrical A model with the longer scale length.  It's marked "professional" and is Serial #706.   I'd like to know the approx. year, which I'm guessing is 1923.  Any ideas?

 Also.....does anybody know where I could get a replacement knee rest?

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## mrmando

> I DO own an asymmetrical A model with the longer scale length.  It's marked "professional" and is Serial #706.   I'd like to know the approx. year, which I'm guessing is 1923.  Any ideas?


I should think it would be earlier than '23. '21 seems the most likely year for a transitional model. I thought they were all short-scale by '23.

And, has it got a "Washburn" label or a "Lyon & Healy" label?

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## keef

> I DO own an asymmetrical A model with the longer scale length.  It's marked "professional" and is Serial #706.   I'd like to know the approx. year, which I'm guessing is 1923.  Any ideas?
> 
>  Also.....does anybody know where I could get a replacement knee rest?


I checked my list - A Style A with number 75X is the earliest asymmetrical model that I have, and it has a short scale neck. #681 still has the symmetrical body. #707 hangs at the Washburn headquarters in Mundelein (where I inspected it, and one of the top braces came off....). That one has the 11.12.1918 patent stamp on the pickguard, but dumb enough I did not record if it's the symmetrical version or not. Anyway, your mandolin apparently is one of the first asymmetrical models.

As to the date...I have a February 2, 1921 ad with a picture of an asymmetrical Style A, and a 1921 L&H mando catalog showing the same version - these are the earliest pics I have of the new styles. Late 1920 or early 1921 would likely be the transition period.

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

Heres #70 style B. long scale- Pat applied for on pickguard

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

lets try for another #70

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

and

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

one more

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

a little different lighting

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## mrmando

Here is a nice Style B, #1475. Art Deco headstock, short scale, Washburn label. It's a '22 or '23.

This one came flying out of an estate in Los Angeles. It has a repaired side crack and the original case is long gone. Frets were toast, but I had it refretted and put Thomastiks on it, and now it sings like nobody's business. Its new owner is playing it in the Seattle Mandolin Orchestra and couldn't be happier. Says that every time she picks it up she has to play it for at least two hours.

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