# Song and Tune Projects > Song and Tune Projects >  The Music, Who Owns It??

## wamjr52

If someone like me were to write new words that fit existing music, would there be legal ( copyright ) issues.  I have done four but have been worried about singing them in public.  The music used was, The Love of The Mountains,  In my Tennesse Mountain Home,  Man in Red Camels ( 2 ) songs. :Confused:  :Mandosmiley:

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## Fred Keller

The short answer is "yes."  If you used a tune someone else wrote and supplied your own lyrics you are responsible for crediting and--if you record that song--paying the writer.  The good news is that most writers don't mind terribly if you only perform their material in public., provided you acknowledge their contribution or (if you choose to go to the trouble) ask their permission.  

Your legal issues only really become acute if you record that song/tune/lyric without permission.  

I submit this post as a place to start the discussion.  I have no doubt there may be varying shades of morality and legal responsibilities depending on the details of your situation.

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## 250sc

George Harrison lost a legal case with My Sweet Lord (same melody as He's So Fine)

Only paradies can be done. (Weird Al Yankovic)

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## farmerjones

If it's a traditional melody there's no fowl. There has to be published documentation to that effect. "Known public domain" 

Beware, arrangements can be protected.

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## Mike Bunting

> If it's a traditional melody there's no fowl.  
> .


What if they are playing the Chicken Reel?!

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## Steve Ostrander

[QUOTE][What if they are playing the Chicken Reel?! 
/QUOTE]

Mike, you should get the Pulletzer Prize for that one.  :Smile:

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## Wolfboy

Don't egg him on...

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## Mandolin Mick

250sc mentioned George Harrison's My Sweet Lord already. Yeah, totally different lyrics but same melody. In fact, the actual winning argument was that he lifted *3 notes!!!* Paid at least 1,000,000 £ in royalties! I saw the check! 

It's not the chord progression, but if they prove you lifted the melody you're sunk. If you hear He's So Fine you know that he couldn't have done that innocently.

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## Mike Bunting

:Smile:

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## sbarnes

chord progressions cannot be copyrighted.....
melodies can....(and are)

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## swampstomper

Woody Guthrie wrote almost all of his songs off traditional melodies. Philadelphia Lawyer = Jealous Lover ("Down in some lonesome valley..."); This Land is Your Land = Little Darling Pal of Mine; I Ain't Got A Home in this World Anymore = direct answer to the gospel song of the same name etc. He concentrated on the lyrics (sung poems) and used simple well-known and (mostly) non-copyrighted melodies.

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## Mandoviol

> chord progressions cannot be copyrighted.....
> melodies can....(and are)


If this were so, Johann Pachelbel's descendents would be due billions (if not trillions) of dollars in royalties.

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## Fred Keller

Yes, Mandoviol.  To wit...

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## wamjr52

It seems to be the consensus that maybe if the songs were done locally, live and not recorded then chances of causing problems, getting sued, paying money will not come up.  Not to many big record industry folks in Shallotte NC.

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## JeffD

> It seems to be the consensus that maybe if the songs were done locally, live and not recorded then chances of causing problems, getting sued, paying money will not come up. .


What that amounts to is not getting caught.


If you make any money off your "new" song, then you probably owe someone something., or at least should confirm that you don't.

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## bobby bill

> If you hear He's So Fine you know that he couldn't have done that innocently.


Just because it sounds almost identical does not mean it was not done innocently.  I write music all the time and sometimes, maybe a year later, I will hear something and think, "oh, that's where I stole it from."

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## John Soper

If you're going to steal, steal from the best...  :Wink:

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## bigbike

This is interesting because I brought this issue up with my ex (when we were still together) years ago.  I was told then that WORDS but not the music can be copy writed.  My point was that music has been made over the last 10,000 years by human beings and certainly every note and every chord that could possibly be put together on every instrument, already has been.  So how is an artist who is just writing tunes supposed to know-if say the chord progression and general feel is outside of the rhelm in which they are writing?

I mean yeah I know a lot of stuff has been used and recycled since music began-US national anthem, an old English drinking tune.  Great Speckled bird="It wasn't God who made honky tonk angels" and countless others.  Do you just write and hope that you are never caught with the tune, or are you stuck using some old, tune and revamping it?

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## Bertram Henze

It's threads like this that remind me why I am not a professional musician. Keep 'em coming!  :Smile:  :Smile:  :Mandosmiley:  :Popcorn:

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## allenhopkins

Words can be copyrighted.  Melodies can be copyrighted.  _Arrangements_ of non-copyrighted ("public domain") music can be copyrighted.

Copyrights expire after a period of time.  Mr. Pachelbel or his heirs cannot collect centuries afterwards.  I can sing or record _Oh, Susannah_ without worrying about the Foster family suing me for copyright infringement.  If, however, I were to record James Taylor's idiosyncratic and clearly identifiable arrangement of _Oh, Susannah,_ I'd need to be on the lookout for his attorneys.

Dealing with live performance, I'd be more concerned about whether your performance venue has paid off the required licensing organizations (ASCAP, BMI) who try to ensure that composers get paid for performance of their material -- even for recordings of it being played over, say, a restaurant sound system. Much more of a worry, if you pick _Don't Think Twice, It's All Right_ on your Weber down at the Dew Drop Inn next Saturday.

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## Miss Lonelyhearts

"When you copy from one, it's plagiarism. When you copy from two or more, it's research." - Wilson Mizner
 :Smile:

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## Mandolin Mick

bobby bill-

What you say is true, but if you listen to My Sweet Lord & He's So Fine back to back you'd probably come to the same conclusion. John Lennon said, "He knew what he was doing." 

Harrison had a reputation of writing great songs that were heavily based on somebody else's songs. The first line of Something is from James Taylor's Something in the Way She Moves, the guitar of If I Needed Someone is based on a song by the Byrds, etc.

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## Manfred Hacker

I am not trying to condone anything:
Here we are fussing over a couple of notes or lines of lyrics. Or over copyright issues if someone asks to get ONE page from a tunebook scanned.

Over the past few years, GOOGLE people have scanned MILLIONS of books and made them available online without asking authors for permission.

Just a thought.

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## man dough nollij

> Words can be copyrighted.  Melodies can be copyrighted.  _Arrangements_ of non-copyrighted ("public domain") music can be copyrighted.


Hey Allen, I always appreciate your posts here. This may (or may not...) be a good place to ask a stupid question. I don't really understand the concept of arrangements. I don't come from a musical background, and haven't played anything orchestrated or really multi-instrumental. I've heard the term a lot, but have never really known what it meant. 

A melody is what a melody is. A particular arrangement is obviously a way that melody should be played (chord transitions, instrumentation, etc.), right? 

I've heard the term applied to jazz pieces that seemed to me to be very improvisational, so what role does the 'arranger' have in that case?  :Confused:

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## DougC

Here are a few links to copyright information. It's pretty complicated and dry reading but I have learned a few things from them. I guess the easiest way to get a question answered is to ask a copyright lawyer. 

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf

http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ

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## wamjr52

I certainly appreciate the advice and references.  Since I don't play for money or record, just local stuff. I might just save these songs for family event, were I know the folks.  I hear the family that has held, or claimed to have held the copyright to "Happy Birthday"  just lost in court, or wuz I just dreaming?

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## allenhopkins

> Hey Allen, I always appreciate your posts here. This may (or may not...) be a good place to ask a stupid question. I don't really understand the concept of arrangements. I don't come from a musical background, and haven't played anything orchestrated or really multi-instrumental. I've heard the term a lot, but have never really known what it meant. 
> 
> A melody is what a melody is. A particular arrangement is obviously a way that melody should be played (chord transitions, instrumentation, etc.), right? 
> 
> I've heard the term applied to jazz pieces that seemed to me to be very improvisational, so what role does the 'arranger' have in that case?


Thanx for the props -- much appreciated.  Don't know that I can respond authoritatively.

I first heard this when there was a little snit in the traditional music community about some collectors sticking a copyright on their "arrangements" of old folk songs.  I heard the New Lost City Ramblers complaining about John Lomax back in the early '60's.  Another person who copyrighted a bunch of music that he collected, was A. P. Carter of the original Carter Family.

As I understand it, if you take public domain material and make an individual, definable, original musical arrangement of it, you can copyright that arrangement.  This allows people like Copeland, for example, to copyright compositions that incorporate public domain tunes.  Don Reno used to record traditional tunes on the banjo, but put new names on them and claim copyright.  How defensible some of that might have been, I don't know.

Obviously, the arrangement has to be more than just playing through the non-copyrighted original.  It could feature added lyrics, unique chord changes, orchestration etc.  I used the example of James Taylor's "acoustijazz" version of _Oh, Susannah_; take a listen to *this* duet version (remember when Taylor had long hair?) with Johnny Cash, which has new chords, new lyrics -- Stephen Foster wouldn't know it.   (Well, maybe he would, but would he _like_ it?)



Were Foster's copyright still valid, Taylor would be paying for the privilege of recording the song.  Were I to record Taylor's arrangement of the song, I'd need to consider paying him, since I'm sure the copyright on _Sweet Baby James_ and its contents is still running.

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## Sandy Beckler

I don't know if this has been addressed yet, but by all means, if you enjoy music this merits a look. Before it's too late.....

http://www.noperformancetax.org/

Sandy :Cool:

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## mandroid

Men at Work, Australian Pop Band, was sued for having a melody from an Australian children's song as part of a top of the charts hit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8497433.stm

I think 'can't get blood out of a turnip', ... 
versus, having a deep pocket to sue for the contents of, 
 with a big percentage of fees and court costs,  still making the effort rewarding,  matters a lot.

that's why if there is an issue with doing covers of ASCAP/BMI licensed songs getting played in a Venue, the publishing license holders go after the Venue, and not the performer ,
 because most musicians are an anemic turnip. asset-wise.

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## foldedpath

> Dealing with live performance, I'd be more concerned about whether your performance venue has paid off the required licensing organizations (ASCAP, BMI) who try to ensure that composers get paid for performance of their material -- even for recordings of it being played over, say, a restaurant sound system. Much more of a worry, if you pick _Don't Think Twice, It's All Right_ on your Weber down at the Dew Drop Inn next Saturday.


To be clear about this, the musicians playing at the local Dew Drop Inn don't actually have to worry about whether the venue has paid an ASCAP/BMI license. If there is a problem with unpaid or lapsed fees, the local agency rep takes it up with the venue owner, not the musicians. As musicians we're treated as sub-contractors. They see the venue owner as having the deeper pockets and fixed business location to hit up with a licensing fee. 

The one situation where musicians do have to be concerned with licensing, is with CD sales at a performance (assuming some or all of the material is under copyright). It's a fairly painless process now to pay the mechanical fees for CD sales, even for low-volume runs. 

I never bring up the ASCAP/BMI license issue with venue owners, because it may open a can of worms with those who try to fly under the radar, or only pay partial fees for pre-recorded music and not live performance. It's not my problem, and BMI doesn't pay me to police these businesses*. It can rub owners the wrong way if you ask about it, because most resent paying these fees in the first place.

* Side note: someone in my family once worked a brief stint as an undercover ASCAP employee. They paid her to have drinks at various bars, and take notes on what songs were being played over the sound system, or by live bands. So they do track this stuff, although I have my doubts about the fairness of the system used to distribute collected fees.

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## mandopops

Side Bar. Did anyone bring up the John Fogerty law suit, where he was sued for stealing his own song? The deal was his old management had totally screwed him on his early stuff & held the rights to his early songs.
 Later years he wrote 'Old Man Down the Road'. The old management claimed it was too much like 'Green River' I think. Anyway, it went to court & Fogerty played them both for the Judge. He did win in that they were different enough. Yet the outrage.

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## bbrizzy89

I actually had a question relating to all this- 

If I transcribe improvised solos that i listen to, by Sam Bush, Béla Fleck, and Jerry Douglas lets say... and turn them into sheet music.  What are my rights as far as performing them on youtube (my channel is www.youtube.com/bbrizzy89)?  Covering them?  Distributing, or even selling that sheet music as pdf files or something?

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