# Music by Genre > Jazz/Blues Variants, Bossa, Choro, Klezmer >  A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

## John McGann

Café brothers and sisters, my pal Bob sent me an email trying to sort out how to deal with minor key progressions in jazz improv. I thought I'd share with anyone interested:




> I'm trying to get a handle on the minor scale. I understand the
> diatonic major scale, but the minor scale makes me cross eyed. I look
> at my theory books but I can't make sense of it. I'd like to
> understand the diatonic scale in the minor mode, if that makes sense.
> 
> So I looked through my theory books, and I get this for the harmonic
> minor scale-
> 
> Cm(maj7) what the hell is that? - Cm6 - D half dim. 7 - Ebmaj7#5
> ...


You are confused because it is confusing!

There's no single "the" minor scale. Whichever minor scale or mode is being used is contextual, so you'd have to look at the melody notes (if any) or progression to figure out what to do (ah, chord tones as always as starters!)

So, the choices (in the mainstream of most often used sounds) are

• *Natural minor* (the aeolian mode)- 12b345b6b7-(b3 b6 b7 being the characteristic notes)
• *Melodic minor-* 12b34567 (b3 with natural 6 and 7)
• *Harmonic minor* (12b345b6 7) (b6/natural7 and the telltale minor 3rd between them).

As you suspect, the payoff for the minor ii V (iim7b5 to V7b9) is indeed the harmonic minor scale.

Now, the way it works is:

Dm7b5 G7b9 ('the' minor 2-5) comes from _C harmonic minor_, you can build the chords and tensions from the scale and all notes sound fine against the chords.

When you resolve to an actual Cm7 as the I chord (or Cm6 in Djangoland), you want to lose the b6 of harmonic minor, and depending of the mood, choose your mode of choice (or don't worry about WHAT mode, find the melody notes you like)- because on that I chord you may like a natural 6, which could be C melodic minor OR C dorian, or a b6 which could be C natural minor, OR indeed you may like the angular sound of the C harmonic minor.

Lots of choices but take heart, if you play 'inside' the choices are finite, and all the action happens making choices between b6/6/b7/7.

That ii v is the bread and butter of the 'minor sound' for trad jazz (late swing-bebop).

As for the other harm chords like bIIImaj7#5- yes, you go 'yikes' because it doesn't appear in jazz literature until the 60's with Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock (whoa, something a half century old is new fangled in this tradition!)...in C the notes are Eb G B D.

Played by itself it sounds cool and crazy.

• Put an F in the bass and you have b7 9 #11 13 of an F7(9 #11 13) chord- the lydian b7 chord.

• Put a C in the bass and it's an awesome James Bond sounding Cm(maj7 9). That's the 'what the hell is that' one chord, it is dissonant and not used a lot in older styles (but it can be the 2nd chord in the Ellington classic "In a Sentimental Mood"), but all over the place in later jazz.

• Put a B in the bass and it's 3 #5 1 #9 of B7(#9 #5).

In extended harmony, no chord is an island- many extended chords are a combination of two seemingly simple chords- even Cmaj7 is a C triad on the bottom and an Em triad on top. If you get that, you can spy these 'combo platters' all over jazz harmony, and it simplifies things greatly and leads to more clarity when you solo- it's all good!

As always, knowing the chords of the scale will lead you to good things improvisationally when you want to leave the outline concept behind, and outline OTHER chords against the actual chord of the moment- like in the above, where you'd arpeggiate that Ebmaj7#5 over F7 or Cm.

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## Pete Martin

Good stuff John, thanks for the posting.

I transcribe a lot of bebop/hard bop type players from the 40s and 50s (Bird, Clifford, Cannonball, Coltrane, etc).  While I occasionally hear the harmonic minor played over minor II V  I, I hear this a LOT on minor II  V  I:  

Locrian #2 (the VI mode of Melodic Minor) on the II
Diminished Whole Tone or altered (VII mode of Melodic Minor) on the V
Melodic Minor on the I

This is three different Melodic Minor scales on the minor II  V  I.  Mark Levine discusses this in his "Jazz Theory" book starting on page 75.

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## John McGann

> Good stuff John, thanks for the posting.
> 
> I transcribe a lot of bebop/hard bop type players from the 40s and 50s (Bird, Clifford, Cannonball, Coltrane, etc).  While I occasionally hear the harmonic minor played over minor II V  I, I hear this a LOT on minor II  V  I:  
> 
> Locrian #2 (the VI mode of Melodic Minor) on the II
> Diminished Whole Tone or altered (VII mode of Melodic Minor) on the V
> Melodic Minor on the I
> 
> This is three different Melodic Minor scales on the minor II  V  I.  Mark Levine discusses this in his "Jazz Theory" book starting on page 75.


Thanks Pete!

From Bird 1945 to Cannonball/Coltrane 1959 is a huge development. I haven't heard a ton of altered scale stuff from Bird until pretty late in his recording career- lots of melodic b5's but not so much the surrounding altered scale; a bit from Dizzy, a lot from Bud Powell, but it seems to be commonplace by the Clifford Brown zone of the mid 50's. That harmonic minor modal stuff happens more frequently in Bird's solos IMHO (the one's I've transcribed or studied, which is not exhaustive!).

The locrian natural 2 kind of sets up a natural 13b9 sound on the subsequent V- another way to see it would be the harmonic _major_ scale of the target I (12345b67) which gives you (on that V7) a G7 b9 13 sound like the diminished 1/2 whole would, but other changes (All spellings enharmonic to fit the chord symbol):

G7b9 13 (C harm major) G Ab B C D E F (1 b9 3 4 5 6 b7)
G7b9 13 (1/2/w diminished) G Ab Bb B C# D E F (1 b9 #9 3 #4 5 6 b7)

choice #2 might sound a little more angular due to the #4 (#11). It's all good! They set up the expectation of resolving to a I major since they broadcast the major 3rd of that chord- but can resolve 'deceptively' to minor as well.

The altered scale messes with the basic DNA of the G7 since there is no 5th at all (from Ab melodic minor):

G7b9/#9/b5/#5 or "alt": G Ab Bb B Db Eb F ( 1 b9 #9 3 b5 #5 b7).

"If it ain't broke, break it!"  :Wink:

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## Pete Martin

You're very correct John, at least in what I've transcribed, Bird didn't use it much.  Clifford, however, seemed to be his favorite way of going through things (of the 40 or so solos I've transcribed so far).  

An interesting observation I noticed in a Freddie Hubbard (don't remember the tune, I'll have to look through my notebooks) solo was this over a Bm7b5  E7b9  Am7b5  Dalt GmMaj7 progression.  Harmonic minor over the Bm7b5  E7b9 chords and melodic minor over the last 3 chords.  It sounds great.  Proves there is no "correct" answer, just let your ear be the guide.

Ain't Jazz fun??!! :Laughing:

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## John McGann

There are so many incredibly rich areas/eras of jazz to enjoy...I am also very fond of Clifford Brown, just an amazing talent, and so sad that he passed so early- 23? I could barely hold a pick at age 23 (actually I am still trying to find out which end goes where)...and I'm with you in terms of transcribing- there are already books out there, which can be great for teaching or practicing reading, but I find the best way to assimilate and learn is by ear-direct to disc, so to speak. When you DIY you get things that you just can't get otherwise...

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## Ted Eschliman

Ah minor keys... Never hurts to remind students why they call it music "theory," not music _science_.

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## groveland

> Ah minor keys... Never hurts to remind students why they call it music "theory," not music _science_.


It only hurts when the band is playing Am7b5 Dalt GmMaj7 and the soloist plays G Melodic Minor instead of G Harmonic Minor...  Ouch!  The 6 and the b6 both... On the other hand in context it might be sounding like a 'blue' note of some kind.  I need to hear it.

Or is it just possible its... A mistake?  :Disbelief:  





 :Grin:

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## pglasse

Great thread guys! Very beautiful contributions here. This is a very tough area for most folks to get a handle on.  

A few thoughts....

The number of mandolinists in the world who are able to really explain, let alone fluidly use, this vocabulary in an improvisational jazz context is, Id venture, stunningly small  perhaps down into the single digits. Fully exploring the ramifications of what John and Pete have written so far could keep most mandolinists busy for a very long time.

In my experience of working with musicians who are transitioning from a bluegrass or folk background into learning some jazz vocabulary, if these folks have one single chordal weak spot, its playing and playing over minor seven flat five chords (i.e. half diminished chords).

These days there are tons of resources available. One online link I just found is: http://www.jazzguitar.be/half_diminished_chords.html

Its easy to glaze over on the minutia of minor scales: their various names and permutations. Id reiterate Johns suggestion ....all the action happens making choices between b6/6/b7/7. 

For Dmin7b5:
C harmonic minor scale is your friend.
so is the locrian mode (Eb major scale)
ascending melodic minor scale based on F (DEFGAbBbC)  this gives you the very hip E note
or play all your Bb9 licks

I also really love C harmonic minor scale with the flat seventh interval (Bb) added  which gives on the effect of G7#9 when you move to the V7 chord (G).

So many ways to approach this.... Yes, its stunning how music from the 1940s and 1950s can be new territory for the mandolin. The Clifford Brown/Max Roach recordings still sound so fresh and wonderful  great arrangements, composing and playing.

All the best,

Paul Glasse
Austin, Texas

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## John McGann

Paul, thanks to the work of people like yourself, Don, Will Patton, Ted E, Tiny, Jethro, Dawg, Jamie M. and many others, more people are getting these sounds in their ears via great mandolin playing. There's a strong (if not universal) interest in jazz mandolin at Berklee, and great players with strong roots in bluegrass like Jake Jolliff are exploring the jazz vocabulary and doing great things expanding their horizons.

We can also thank guys like Groveland, Niles, Pete Martin, Shelby Eicher and several other regulars (forgive me for not naming everyone!) on the Café for contributing helpful improvisational theory perspectives as well.

I think there are some excellent jazz mandolinists out there under the radar, and hopefully there will be a new generation cropping up over the next decade or so. There are bound to be some great mainstream players, as well as those who will forge some new hybrids.

Now I should shut up and practice my lick  :Laughing:

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## Don Stiernberg

So how would you treat a One-SIX-Two-Five progression in minor, given the three types of minor scales? The way I learned it(pre-internet, perhaps from the back of a cereal box or the inside cover of 'Police Gazette'),the common denominator becomes the iim7b5-V7alt-i progression. But then in my next MM column I was trying to spin out some longer lines...Vi-ii-V-I, etc...In Cminor, the chord in the six position can be either Ab or Am7b5. Seems to me we almost never see it as Ab in jazz tunes so I went with the A half-diminished. Any further clarification would be greatly appreciated, and yes, this a very helpful thread. I love all you guys!

 Paul, I've always wondered how you finger half-diminished chords. I seem to use only one voicing, I bet you'd have dozens more...?

 Pete Martin, I don't know if I'd have mentioned all those transcriptions! You're going to have people bugging you to bundle them up and send them out. Like me, for instance...

 Johnny McGann The Red Sox Fan: Thanks a million for kicking this one off. So helpful.

 After reading this yesterday I got in the car and heard a track that brought a lot of these concepts into my ear. It was called "One For Daddy-O" by Cannonball Adderley, a beautiful minor blues. Even on a relatively simple progression in minor, when everything is treated properly, the solos become very speechlike. Or at least Cannon's did. His stuff will knock you down ,it's so good.

 Lest we forget, the richest sounding tunes contain many tonalities: major, minor, and others. So getting a handle on these concepts is essential and that's why I'm so grateful for the concise information freely given above. It's like a college education in just a few paragraphs!

 A tune like Autumn Leaves is essentially in a major key and it's relative minor. If you can play lines in both major and minor that correspond to full cadences in each, you're basically there.

 I enjoy inserting the m7b5 sound into progressions even if it's not called for by the progression.
 Summertime would be one example, or Minor Swing, or Moondance even. You can even two-five your way toward the Em in Foggy Mountain Breakdown I suppose...

 Thanks again,eagerly awaiting further contributions to this thread.

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## pglasse

John McGann wrote:




> I think there are some excellent jazz mandolinists out there under the radar, and hopefully there will be a new generation cropping up over the next decade or so.


I'm sure you're right. I look forward to hearing them. In the meantime, thanks for (among other things) helping to bring this kind of knowledge to the next generation up at Berkeley.




> So how would you treat a One-SIX-Two-Five progression in minor, given the three types of minor scales? ...(snip)...In Cminor, the chord in the six position can be either Ab or Am7b5. Seems to me we almost never see it as Ab in jazz tunes so I went with the A half-diminished.


I would always treat that VI chord in minor keys as a m7b5 based on the major VI interval -- so in C minor, yes, Am7b5.




> Paul, I've always wondered how you finger half-diminished chords. I seem to use only one voicing, I bet you'd have dozens more...?


Here are some position options (listed as fret #'s GDAE strings):

3253 = E half-diminished (or C9 no root, or Gm6)
4355 = B half-diminished
3343 = G half-diminished

used less frequently but still there are:

5354 = D half-diminished
3541 = G half-diminished

As indicated in the first example, these all work as 9th and m6 chords, though sometimes the inversions are undesireable for one or more of the functions.

For all of these half-diminished chords I like to see which dominant seventh chords they resolve to -- i.e. lower the flat five and flat seven of each chord to make the dominant seventh chord a fourth above.

Yes, Pete, I'd love a copy of those transcriptions too.

Don, I totally agree with you about Cannonball Adderley. I've always been particularly knocked out by his sense of time -- even ignoring his awesome pitch choices, he just swings like crazy; take away the whole band and he would still be swinging.




> A tune like Autumn Leaves is essentially in a major key and it's relative minor. If you can play lines in both major and minor that correspond to full cadences in each, you're basically there.


Your comment reminded me of an amazing video where the late Ted Greene gives a demo/seminar and does mind-blowing stuff with Autumn Leaves. Clips are available on YouTube and Google Video. If you've got time catch the whole thing at:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...e+guitar&hl=en

Thanks again for all the excellent contributions.

Paul Glasse
Austin, Texas

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## bobby bill

I have the hardest time remembering the inversions of half-diminished chords.  Whereas one typically refers to an inversion by the note that is in the bass, I flip that around in my head when I think of mandolin chords since someone else is handling the bass and I'm often more concerned with what the highest note is (in order to play chords and melody at the same time).

So I will often take a half-diminished chord and go through the inversions (according to the top note) to try to pound it into my memory.   This is what I do for an f sharp half-diminished:

2232 - root on top

5475 - third on top

9798 - diminished fifth on top

11 10 12 12 - minor seventh on top

Whew! I hope I got that right.

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## Bruce Clausen

Nice voicings, Bobby.  As you say, usually you'll have someone else getting the root well below mandolin range.  So that's an expendable note.  I mostly comp using three-note voicings.  And I see Paul's B half-dim suggestion lacks the root.  (By the way, Paul, I think that first E half-dim should say 3253?)

Another full voicing I like is B half-dim played 4751.  

BC

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## Pete Martin

> So how would you treat a One-SIX-Two-Five progression in minor, given the three types of minor scales? The way I learned it(pre-internet, perhaps from the back of a cereal box or the inside cover of 'Police Gazette'),the common denominator becomes the iim7b5-V7alt-i progression. But then in my next MM column I was trying to spin out some longer lines...Vi-ii-V-I, etc...In Cminor, the chord in the six position can be either Ab or Am7b5. Seems to me we almost never see it as Ab in jazz tunes so I went with the A half-diminished. Any further clarification would be greatly appreciated, and yes, this a very helpful thread. I love all you guys!


Don, ask and you shall receive  :Smile:   A tune with a few minor I  VI  II Vs

I just posted a Cannonball Adderley transcription of his first chorus of Minority.  You can download it from the home page of my web site, listed below.  A disclaimer: I have rearranged small section to stay in mandolin range and to make certain horn lines playable by me.  I usually transcribe as close as I can hear to how the player actually plays the solo, and then change it to make it playable by me.  I can't find the original Cannonball file, so this will have to do.  If I find the unaltered original, I'll post it instead.

What scale anyone is using at a given time is up to interpretation, but the presence of E natural notes against the Dm7b5 indicates to me the F melodic minor scale.  In this first chorus, there are not enough notes of the scale played to tell me what scale, if any, he was thinking against the Gm7b5.  The C7 seems to be a C7 bebop scale as much as anything else.


I'd be interested to hear how some of you guys analyze this...

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## Will Patton

What a cool thread - these ideas will keep me busy for a while.
I have a coupla diminished x.5 (half diminished) chords using open type positions that I like to use from time to time for that ring-y sound:
4-0-0-1 is a B half-dim (resolves nicely into 1-0-0-1, E7 b9) and 0-0-1-0, a Gm6 = E half dim. - This last one can be barred right up the neck.
 ... another big fan of Cannon!
   -Will

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## pglasse

> ...And I see Paul's B half-dim suggestion lacks the root.  (By the way, Paul, I think that first E half-dim should say 3253?)


Good catch! I've gone back and edited (fixed) my first two examples -- 2 of 3 that I use the most -- as I wrote them wrong the first time. Thanks so much for  keeping me honest.

All the best,

Paul Glasse
Austin, Texas

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## Bruce Clausen

(I get it, Paul, so your B half-dim is a full voicing in fact.)

Here's another way to organize some of this info (and keep us lower on the fretboard).  The note G occurs in four half-dim chords, as root, third, fifth, or seventh.  So writing Bobby's voicings all with G on top:

3343
3253
4243
2133

And then there's the other family, the stretchier voicings:

6883
7873
6973
5763

Chords are G half-dim, then E, C#, and A half-dim.

BC

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## Brad Weiss

I'm jumping off the deep-end here, but I always like to think of chords as substitutions for one another (a Gm is a Bb6, etc) so I think a vim7b5=im6=IV9; Em7b5=Gm6=C9.  Then I figure out the One of the dominant chord (C9 goes to F), and use that scale, making sure to hit the right "color" tones (the D if its a C9, the E and the Bb if its the Gm6, the Bb and the D for the Em7b5; actually the D and the Bb work all over all three nicely, sort of the heart of the chords).  I never can keep modes and the minutiae of minor scales, as Paul says, straight, so I sort of reduce everything to a common denominator major scale from which I can then deviate as needed.  I'm not saying it WORKS, but it's how I think of these things.

I'm pleased to see I share the grips of Paul Glasse - so at least our fingers are in the same place!

Thanks everybody!!

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## Ted Eschliman

Brad brings up a very good point in that often grappling with the sophistications of chord extensions, you can simplify your options by unraveling chord commonalities. Like the fact that these three chords are actually voiced the same on the mandolin:



Maybe a little off topic as far as concepts of minor, but more about the above here: 
Chord Commonalties: m6, m7b5, rootless 9th

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## Don Stiernberg

Man, my m7b5 chord voicing is more odd than I thought I guess! I use a three note voicing with no minor seventh. So Em7b5, for example, would be 3-5-7 in frets from the G string up, or b5-m3-root in intervals. I guess that's what happens when you make them up yourself. To hopefully redeem this voicing, however, follow it with an A7#5 fretted 6-5-8(C#-G-F, 3,b7,#5). That puts a nice melodic movement in the cadence: E-F-D...

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## Pete Martin

I like to use the following rootless voicings:

Em7b5
355  

A7b9
354

Dm Maj7
234

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## groveland

> ...it's how I think of these things.





> ...you can simplify your options by unraveling chord commonalities.


You can stretch your m7(b5) shapes a long, long way:


Fmi6..........D F Ab C  
Dmi7(b5)......D F Ab C 
E7(#5b9)......D F Ab C (E)
A#9(#11)......D F Ab C (E)
Dmi9(b5)......D F Ab C (E)
Fmi69.........D F Ab C (G)
G7sus(b9).....D F Ab C (G)
Dmi11(b5).....D F Ab C (E G)

and then there's these...

Fmi7(add 13)..D F Ab C (Eb) 
A#13..........D F Ab C (A# G)  
D7(#9#11).....D F Ab C (F#/Gb A)
Fmi13.........D F Ab C (Bb Eb) 
G#ma13(#11)...D F Ab C (Bb Eb G)
G#13(b5)......D F Ab C (Bb F#/Gb)
A#13(#11).....D F Ab C (A#/Bb E G)
G#13(#11).....D F Ab C (Bb Eb F#/Gb) 

(Forgive any enharmonic mispellings)

Another big Cannonball fan,

Craig

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## John McGann

Wow yeah, Cannonball is the man- I love working out his stuff on mandolin, it's so gutsy and bluesy like "traditional mandolin playing"...

I have the solo from "Sid's Ahead" off the 1958 "Milestones" album by Miles + co. on my website; that came out just before Kind of Blue- same band that played on Cannonball's "Something Else" record that the minor blues "One For Daddy-o" that Donny mentions above is from. It's a crazy reharmonized blues form, and Cannonball plays his arse off on it!

Another fun and helpful thing about the minor ii V thing: Dizzy Gillespie 'didn't believe' in the iim7b5, he thought of it as IVm6:

DFAbC= Dm7b5
FAbCD= Fm6

So rather than a "minor ii V" he thought "ivm6 to v7". You see that change a lot in actual fake books published in the 40's and 50's, so it was probably a common way of thinking of the change. For those of us raised on triads, the ivm6 concept can make it a little easier to access those sounds...and this way, your lines don't begin on the root of the chord- always good to shoot for 3rds anyway...Bert Ligon's "Connecting Chords With Linear Harmony" is an excellent study in this way of thinking, for the curious...

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## groveland

> ...outline OTHER chords against the actual chord of the moment- like in the above, where you'd arpeggiate that Ebmaj7#5 over F7 or Cm.


Cool Sounds! F13(#11)  = F7 + Ebma7(#5) is F G A B C D D#/Eb.  Cmi9(ma7) = Cmi7 + Ebma7(#5) is C D Eb G B.

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## ZenJam

This is my first posting here. I sent the original question about the minor diatonic scale to John. I just had had a lesson with Don, and he reminded me that when I'm comping, it's easy to do walking lines, and interesting stuff just walking up or down with chords from the diatonic scale. And I get that - conceptually, I have the picture of that.

And I'm one of those students Paul mentioned, that stumbles when I'm improvising over the minor II-V-I sequence, but I'm beginning to get that sound and have some kind of conceptual grasp of how to approach it.

And maybe that's enough, and I should be satisfied with that, but I love the minor sound - it's so rich musically - and it's why I love the gypsy jazz genre.

So I still find myself wanting to have a better conceptual grasp of the minor diatonic scale, and it is just so freakin' wierd. I read John's response, and I'll work through some of that, and maybe some day, I'll wake up and it will all be clear to me, and if not, I'll just give up trying to understand it, and simply enjoy playing the music.

Thank you for this rich and informative discussion.

Bob Althouse

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## John McGann

Bob, thanks for asking! This topic is a source of confusion for most of us as we learn it.

One thing that can help you see what's up is that is you are comfortable with diatonic movement through the chords, you can look for the pitches that 'make it minor' change from their diatonic (major scale) counterpart.

Major scale= 1234567. In C: CDEFGAB
chords- 
CEGB (I maj7)
DFAC (ii m7)
EGBD (iiim7)
FACE (IVmaj7)
GBDF (V7)
ACEG (vim7)
BDFA (viim7b5)

Now, the "next" minor scale, which has only one different note (E to Eb) is melodic minor. Same structure, but change the chord qualities to suit the Eb:

CEbGB (im maj7)
DFAC (ii m7)
EbGBD (biiimaj7 #5)
FACEb (IV7)
GBDF (V7)
ACEbG (vim7b5)
BDFA (viim7b5)

If you do the same to harmonic minor (Eb and Ab):

CEbGB (im maj7)
DFAbC (ii m7b5)
EbGBD (biiimaj7 #5)
FAbCEb (ivm7)
GBDF (V7)
AbCEbG (bVImaj7)
BDFAb (vii dim7)

Look at the V7- go up another 3rd and viola, G7b9. Goes with the ol' iim7b5.

"Minor key" is really only defining the b3; you have to look at the actual chord sequences and melodic note choices to determine what's happening at any given point. You could have harm minor on the iim7b5 V7b9 but resolve to a natural 6 sound on the Im chord (melodic minor or dorian). 

It's a case by case basis, and as always, going to the source (i.e. recordings and/or transcriptions of great players) will yield the many possibilities. 

As long as you can HEAR the difference between a natural or flatted 3rd, 6th, or 7th, you are in good shape. Not every melodic note choice has to adhere to every chord change 100% of the time- there are zillions of examples of great players playing 'wrong' notes on chords that sound great!

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## Shelby Eicher

Well it looks like all of you brainy guys are at mandolin cafe. Spot on theory. Another way to approach playing a minor b5 is to avoid playing the 5th altogether. So for a Emb5 I'll will somethings use 7 5 7  which vioces down to an A7 - 6 5 7 or Aaug - 6 5 8 to possibly a Dm6 - 4 3 5(which is also a Bmb5) or you can go to a Dm69 - 4 3 7 which is cool. By avoiding any form of the 5th although somewhat generic it is very useable.
Shelby

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## ZenJam

Hey John:
Your last post was very helpful. I've also found playing the arpeggios of each chord helps me hear the relationships better. Thank you for clearing up some of my confusion. 

Bob Althouse

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## John McGann

You are welcome, Bob. I find the arpeggios crucial to "hear off of", in other words, the chord tones are the melodic 2x4s that hold the whole thing up.

Mixed metaphors for happy hour, anyone?  :Laughing: 

The "other" notes are best heard in context of the chord, either by having a Band In the Box type event or a recording of you playing the chord- and if by yourself, sure, in context of the arpeggio will always work.

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## Larry S Sherman

> Your comment reminded me of an amazing video where the late Ted Greene gives a demo/seminar and does mind-blowing stuff with Autumn Leaves. Clips are available on YouTube and Google Video. If you've got time catch the whole thing at:
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...e+guitar&hl=en


This is an amazingly interesting thread..thanks to all. Also thanks for the Ted Greene video link, which was fascinating to me!

Larry

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## groveland

> So I will often take a half-diminished chord and go through the inversions (according to the top note) to try to pound it into my memory.   This is what I do for an f sharp half-diminished:
> 
> 2232 - root on top
> 
> 5475 - third on top
> 
> 9798 - diminished fifth on top
> 
> 11 10 12 12 - minor seventh on top
> ...


The best way I've found to get the next inversion of any chord is to do the following:

Play the notes of strings 1 and 2 on strings 3 and 4, 2 frets higher.
Then play the note found on string 3 on string 2, 5 frets higher.
Then play the note found on string 4 on string 1, 3 frets higher.

That works for _every_ chord in 5ths tuning.  Bobby Bill - Is that what you do?  (That gives you the inversions you show.)

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## John McGann

> The best way I've found to get the next inversion of any chord is to do the following:
> 
> Play the notes of strings 1 and 2 on strings 3 and 4, 2 frets higher.
> Then play the note found on string 3 on string 2, 5 frets higher.
> Then play the note found on string 4 on string 1, 3 frets higher.
> 
> That works for _every_ chord in 5ths tuning.  Bobby Bill - Is that what you do?  (That gives you the inversions you show.)


Cool! Another possible way to think of it is to treat each string like an individual instrument- I say horn as they can only play one note at a time, like a string (unless you split them- let's don't go there just now!). For the sake of argument:

G= tenor sax
D= alto sax
A= flute
E=piccolo

So let's say you have Am7b5 on 4 strings, full voicing AEbCG (2133).
The chord tones in order are ACEbG (we can't PLAY them as a chord in that order due to the tuning, so we juggle the order. That's a chord 'voicing').

Now, what I do is remind each player that I am paying them, and then ask them to each go up to the next chord tone- so 

tenor moves from A to C
alto moves from Eb to G
flute moves from C to Eb
piccolo moves from G to A

viola- the next inversion, CGEbA (and see, it looks like a Cm6 chord in root position!)

As long as you know the notes of the chord you are trying to invert, you can use this idea. However, even if you don't know (or care, shame shame) you can use Groveland's idea of moving the top string voices down an octave etc.

Two different roads that lead to the same place.  :Mandosmiley: 

PS- GREAT to see Ted Greene on this thread-what a wonderful harmonic thinker on guitar! Some of the most unusual chord voicings I've ever transcribed; very little "stock" chord voicings in his playing, great voice leading and counterpoint.

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## groveland

> Now, what I do is remind each player that I am paying them, and then ask them to each go up to the next chord tone- so ... As long as you know the notes of the chord you are trying to invert, you can use this idea.


Yep, I heard that! There are some fantastic mechanical expediencies we need to know, but it's about the music.

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## bobby bill

Groveland - since you asked, this is how my thinking went.  I had a hard time remembering four different shapes for a half-diminished chord.  But fully diminished chords are easy - same shape in every inversion.  So if I wanted to play, say, an f-sharp half diminished chord with the third on top, I would first think of the fully diminished f-sharp chord with the third on top (5465), then figure out which string was playing the diminished seventh (the a string) and raise it a half step to the minor seventh (5475).

Seems a little convoluted and I don't recommend this line of thinking, but it worked for me.  As Mr. McGann says, all roads lead to the same place.  At some point, all the half-diminished chord shapes will be more reflexive and I can discard this two-step process.

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## Brad Weiss

Hmmm- my way of thinking was: play a minor7 chord, find the fifth, and flat it.  That gives me  four basic shapes:

1 on bottom
Bm7= 4455  Bm75 = 4355 (Works for Bb, B, C, C#)

3rd on bottom
Am7= 5575  Am7b5 = 5565 (works for G, Ab, A, Bb)

5th on bottom
Em7= 4253  Em7b5= 3253 (works for E, F, F#)

7th on bottom
Dm7 = 5355 Dm7b5= 5354 (works for C, Db, Eb, E)

now their just shapes like any other to me- no thinking, if I can help it!

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## pglasse

Pete Martin pointed out that many bebop and hardbop musicians approached II V I progressions in minor keys as follows:




> Locrian #2 (the VI mode of Melodic Minor) on the II
> Diminished Whole Tone or altered (VII mode of Melodic Minor) on the V
> Melodic Minor on the I
> 
> This is three different Melodic Minor scales on the minor II  V  I. ...


Totally on the money here Pete! To lay that out in the key of C minor would mean:

Dm7b5 (II) play F melodic minor
G7alt (V7) play Ab melodic minor
Cm (I) play C melodic minor

Since you're playing the same type of scale over all three chords, one device jazz soloists use is repeat a pattern that plays upon the repeat of this scale. For instance, for the II V I listed above first play a melodic fragment based on the F melodic minor scale; move the same melodic fragment up a minor third to accommodate the G7alt (Ab melodic minor); finally move the fragment up another major third to work over the C minor. So, while in each case you're repeating notes of a melodic minor scale, their functions relative to each chord at hand are completely different. It's a cool sound and perhaps a way for folks to start using some of this stuff.

Moving along...as John McGann pointed out, using the F melodic minor over the Dm7b5 (in the above example) has some specific mojo in that the E natural in that scale is also the major third to C minor -- the key we're eventually aiming for. While that is the case, it's also my understanding that many jazz players regard the E natural (i.e. the natural 2nd of the Dm7b5 chord) as more consonant with the Dm7b5 itself than the Eb note you'd get by playing C harmonic minor over that chord. In any case, I think the E natural, in that context, is a cool sound.

At the risk of repeating myself, the world is not exactly overrun with mandolinists who fluidly improvise using these concepts. (I'm certainly still struggling with them.) So if you really get a handle on this stuff you'll probably be charting new territory for our favorite instrument.

All the best,

Paul Glasse
Austin, Texas

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## Pete Martin

> To lay that out in the key of C minor would mean:
> 
> Dm7b5 (II) play F melodic minor
> G7alt (V7) play Ab melodic minor
> Cm (I) play C melodic minor
> 
> Since you're playing the same type of scale over all three chords, one device jazz soloists use is repeat a pattern that plays upon the repeat of this scale. For instance, for the II V I listed above first play a melodic fragment based on the F melodic minor scale; move the same melodic fragment up a minor third to accommodate the G7alt (Ab melodic minor); finally move the fragment up another major third to work over the C minor. So, while in each case you're repeating notes of a melodic minor scale, their functions relative to each chord at hand are completely different. It's a cool sound and perhaps a way for folks to start using some of this stuff.



I hear this transposition of one phrase happen a ton in the stuff I listen to and transcribe.  

Chapter 3 of "The Melodic Minor Handbook" by Bobby Stern has nearly 25 pages of phrases written out in all keys covering just this topic.  While not aimed at mandolin players (is anything but Teds book out there for Jazz Mandolinists??), I recommend it.  That and as John says, keep transcribing and learning solos.

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## bobby bill

Man, what I would give to be "stuggling" like Paul Glasse.  Thanks to all the contributions from folks way smarter than me.  I'm going to be printing out this thread and giving it regular study.

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## Doug Hoople

> Another full voicing I like is B half-dim played 4751.


You actually LIKE this voicing, Bruce!?! 

It's the climax chord in Bach's achingly beautiful Largo in F (from the Sonatas and Partitas), and it's the one chord that keeps me from playing that whole piece in front of other human beings! It's so in-your-face, and such a total invitation to botch the landing.

It's a beautiful voicing, but it's also an awkward, murderous stretch! 

I'll have to try it up the fingerboard to see if I can manage it better.  :Smile:

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## Bruce Clausen

Thanks for the tip, Doug, I'll check it out. Personally I always think of the Mendelssohn Wedding March when I play 4751. (You'd be in F, and the next chord is 1020.) The stretch I think depends alot on thumb position.

Bruce

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## Doug Hoople

> The stretch I think depends alot on thumb position.
> Bruce


Exactly.

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## clem

TO ALL CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS THREAD:

*THANK YOU FOR THE BEST THREAD IN CAFE HISTORY, IMHO.*

Special thanks to Paul for hipping me to this and being such an inspiring teacher.

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## JeffD

Ahhhhh. So much, you would think there were 88 strings instead of 8 on the instrument.

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## John McGann

> Ahhhhh. So much, you would think there were 88 strings instead of 8 on the instrument.


My left hand likes that idea (no fingerboard needed!) but my right hand is heading for the hills  :Laughing:

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## Doug Hoople

> Thanks for the tip, Doug, I'll check it out. Personally I always think of the Mendelssohn Wedding March when I play 4751. (You'd be in F, and the next chord is 1020.) The stretch I think depends alot on thumb position.
> 
> Bruce


Actually, my mistake... I was thinking of the fully-diminished 4651. Yours is still worse, by one fret! 

It was great to see you at our choro jam last night, Bruce, while you were visiting down here in the Bay Area! Nice to add all those tasty fills and twin lines. What a treat! 

And a picture is worth a thousand words. With you right there, you were able to show me 'the stretch' that you're talking about. 

You make the 4751 look downright easy with your 'forbidden' guitar positioning (thumbtip pressed into the back of the neck centered behind the hand)! I'm trying the more scrunched-up 'proper' mandolin version. When you said the usual mandolin hand position tended to make the hand smaller, I could see immediately what you were talking about! I couldn't work your position myself (you're a longtime guitar veteran), but I could definitely see it working. 

We just have to remember what Mike Marshall tells us in DVD 2, which is that, when playing chords, 'proper' position is out the window, and that we should do whatever it takes.

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## Doug Hoople

> diminished x.5 (half diminished)


Hey Will, just caught this on re-reading! Love it. Wish it would catch on. 

Like for example: 

Bbdimx.5

or 

F#dimx.5

Hmmm... I'm testing it in my head. Probably not. Too many characters, for one thing. Compared to the circle with the slash through it, though, it DOES distinguish better from the fully-diminished. And compared to m7b5, it doesn't ask you to do interval math as if it were an extended color chord, as opposed to one of the three primary scale chords (major, minor, half-dim).

On the other hand, though, it's the 7th that's half-diminished, but it's the 5 in the .5 that says the diminishment is by half.  But then isn't the 5th supposed to be fully-diminished (what? as opposed to a half-diminished 5th!??! But wait, there's no such thing! Exactly! Except in microtonal cultures, there could be, couldn't there? But then it probably wouldn't be called a 5th anymore, would it? Is there anything left in that 5th over there? Oh good, it's half-full! Or is that half-diminshed? Phew, I'm exhausted! No really, flat-out fully-diminished! I could use some!). 

Sorry, just typing out loud here, and found myself entertained. Hope you all don't mind. 

So maybe this way of putting it creates as much confusion as it could potentially prevent. 

I still like it. x.5-diminished, indeed!

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## Ted Eschliman

ø is always a fun character to find on the keyboard.
The cheatsheet HTML code is &oslash; for any interested. Number code is & #248;  remove the space after the ampersand.

Probably less gymnastics to type m7b5...

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## John McGann

> On the other hand, though, it's the 7th that's half-diminished, but it's the 5 in the .5 that says the diminishment is by half.  But then isn't the 5th supposed to be fully-diminished ?


The 5th can only be lowered by a 1/2 step to a b5, but the 7th can be lowered to a b7, and lowered again to a bb7 (as we know, same as 6th).

So a 5th is fully diminished by lowering one fret
a (major) 7th is lowered by two frets to get a diminished 7th; lowering the major 7th by a fret gives you a b7.

SO... dim triad 1 b3 b5
half dim 7th (m7b5)- 1 b3 b5 b7 (see, minor 7 means b7, dim means the 5th is lowered)
dim 7- 1 b3 b5 bb7

You probably knew that but I figured I'd lay it out for anyone who might not.

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## Doug Hoople

> You probably knew that but I figured I'd lay it out for anyone who might not.


Yes! THANKS, John! 

Sorry, should have dropped in the smiley! 

This started as a relatively advanced thread, and stayed miraculously sane and on the mark all the way through. So I thought the audience that stayed this far might have some fun with some of these. 

My apologies to anyone who is scratching their heads. It's not your fault. It's mine!

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## JeffD

I am thinking this whole thread belongs in the Theory, Technique & etc. section. I know its about jazz, but if I ever have to refer to this thread again, I ain't never gonna think of looking here!   :Laughing: 


I love this stuff, but I have gaping holes in my background that affect my ability to absorb it all. I sometimes have to resort to various on line musical dictionaries, though what I need is a taxonomy of chords and intervals - one that I can listen to.

"This is a minor diminished and a half a fifth, this is your run of the mill endoplasmic reticulum, and here are your para-di-chloro-methyl- hot and cold running door knobs."

 :Grin:  :Coffee:

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## Doug Hoople

> "This is a minor diminished and a half a fifth, this is your run of the mill endoplasmic reticulum, and here are your para-di-chloro-methyl- hot and cold running door knobs."


Pretty good, but does it stand up to analysis? Mine does! In fact, I ran it by my analyst last week, and he/she said "I Can't Stand It"  :Smile:   :Smile:

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## JeffD

> Pretty good, but does it stand up to analysis? Mine does! In fact, I ran it by my analyst last week, and he/she said "I Can't Stand It"


 :Laughing:  :Laughing:   :Crying:

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## John McGann

> I love this stuff, but I have gaping holes in my background that affect my ability to absorb it all. I sometimes have to resort to various on line musical dictionaries, though what I need is a taxonomy of chords and intervals - one that I can listen to.


A really good DIY project would be to take a simple recording device (even a cassette recorder if not a computer based thingy) and record, in one key, the chord types you want to get to know. Looping would be great- I've used Finale and had it play back a chord with an organ sound (a long drone w/ no rhythm)- looped via tying a bunch of whole notes together and played back at quarter=20. Lasts awhile!

Then, against that backdrop, play whatever you want to hear- a particular minor scale, mode, intervals, double stops, what have you. The discipline is in focusing on ONE thing at a time and milking it so that you can really, truly HEAR the relationship of the notes to the drone.

Multitracking would allow you to create your own dictionary of sounds that you could take with you in the car or iPod- you could announce "4th mode of melodic minor" or something to help catalog the sounds...

Maybe not as instantly gratifying as just learning a tune, but if you are looking to get deeper into improvisation and harmony and more 'exotic sounds', it's time very well spent...you can create your own musical dictionary, and become a badass in one key before moving onto the other key (I read somewhere there are 3 keys, C#, Db and D minus...)  :Mandosmiley: 

'scuse me while I go catch my running doorknobs, it's not warm enough yet to have the doors a-flappin'  :Chicken:

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