# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  New roman instruments

## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

As said in another topic here, prices of vintage instruments of the Mandolin family made by the old Maestros like Giovanni Battista Maldura, Luigi Embergher, the Cerrones and Pasquale Pecoraro, will probably not be influenced by new made instruments by contemporary makers, but new ones will create the possibility for people who prefer the characteristics of Roman mandolin to obtain a healthy new made instrument with a direct linkage to the instruments made by the old Maestros mentioned above. Especially when the new instruments are of high quality this is a very welcome development.

Sofar only Takusari (see 1st photo) was producing Roman concert mandolins after Embergher' examples and although I am not 'up to date' with the price for a 5bis mandolin of his hand, I think it will be somewhat around 3500-4000 Euro. And that is also about what one has to pay for an excellent Lippy or Van den Broek. And for one of the Liuteria Romana, I think.
Sofar Hendrik van den Broek is only making 5bis mandolins.

And that Lorenzo Lippi is already making a great variety of models. 
There are his Orchestra models from 1 till 3, with prices from 1.700 up to 3000 Euro. Soloist model No. 5, 5bis and 6, and the more artistic sculpted No.7 from 3250 to 6000 Euro. The same numbers are available for the Mandola and Mandoliola. The Mandoloncello can be had in the Model No. 1, 3, 5, and 5bis. 


Best, 

Alex 

Photo: Takusari mandolin.

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## Alex Timmerman

And a photo of a Lorenzo Lippi Orchestra model

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## Alex Timmerman

Could not find a photo of mr. Lippi's Model No.3 other than a photo of the two of us together and me holding that beautiful instrument.

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## Alex Timmerman

And here is an example mr. Lippi's 5Bis concert mandola

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MMDavis

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## Alex Timmerman

and the Mandola's tuning mechanics.

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## Alex Timmerman

And the 5 bis Roman concert mandolin recently made by Hendrik van den Broek.

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MMDavis

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## Alex Timmerman

And the copied - and still beautiful - Luigi Embergher tuning mechanism on the headstock of van den Broek's mandolin.


Enjoy!

Alex

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## Jim Garber

Thank you so much, Alex, for posting these photos. It is also nice to know that Sr. Lippi has a lower-priced orchestra model, tho I have to admit my ideal would have to be the number 3. As I recall Het Consort has quite a few of those.

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## Pietrobono

Hello Alex

Best wishes for the New Year to you for your family and all your projects !
Nice idea to make such a thread. Is Takusari still active ? If yes, what is his postal address, I could not find it ?

Thanks in advance

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## surfandstrum

"Beautiful" is the only word that comes to mind for me...thanks for the pics...

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## angelouself

I believe I played on the same mandolin that Alex is holding on the picture, at Cremona Mondomusica. It's a nice instrument and I think he was preparing a copy of an Embergher 5bis. Sounds promising

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## vkioulaphides

I can dream, can't I?  

Beautiful instruments, one and all!

Cheers,

Victor

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## Bob A

Truly gorgeous instruments, each and every one. Many thanks for the pictures.

Are they the sonic equivalent of the instruments they seek to emulate? (Bearing in mind, of course, that they are NEW instruments, without the benefits of aged wood and years of playing).

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## Dan Cohen

Please don't kill me for the dumb question. #What is the history of the little square thing on the end of the headstock? #The Pandinis have them and some of the above pics have them. #I've seen scrolls and other ornamentation but the square just looks odd to me. #

I think it's probably not a TV or electronic tuner screen so I'm slightly less than totally ignorant.

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## Eugene

It's a decorative finial, just an eye-pleasing way to cap off the partial scroll at headstocks to use them. It was common to the gut-strung mandolins of the baroque era (e.g., click here). Now the headstock of an F style, that's hard to decipher.

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## brunello97

> It's a decorative finial, just an eye-pleasing way to cap off the partial scroll at headstocks to use them. #It was common to the gut-strung mandolins of the baroque era (e.g., click here). #Now the headstock of an F style, that's hard to decipher.


Beauty definitely being in the eye of the beholder. (As I think in the case of both of Eugene's examples.) Neither of which seem to function for me either in the eye-pleasing or bottle-opening capacity. Maybe a slight edge to the -bis models on the latter.

But the maple bowls look absolutely lick-able. (Trust me Alex, if we ever meet, I won't try it.)

Mick

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## JeffD

DanC has a good idea however. Permenantly mount a little intelli tuner screen there - then it will be functional as well as cool looking.

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## JEStanek

Those are beautiful, so elegant. Thanks for posting them.

Jamie

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Friends,

Thank you all for your replies. Indeed these are very elegant and beautiful instruments. Ànd - most important of course - instruments with an excellent sound!

Some weeks ago Sr. Lippi finished another Roman mandolin after an original Luigi Embergher example. This time a Model No. 5-bis Soloist mandolin which in my eyes is an absolute superb mandolin in every sence.

Here are some images of Mr. Lorenzo Lippi's mandolin to enjoy.

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MMDavis

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## Alex Timmerman

The back and head

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MMDavis

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## Alex Timmerman

And the beautiful and refined rozet.


Best,

Alex

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## Eugene

Very nicely done. To my eyes, the mature soundbox refined by the Embergher shop is the most elegant achieved by mandolin kind.

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## Bob A

What Eugene said. And to my eyes and ears maple is the perfect medium for mandolin construction. A most pleasurable confluence of material and sculptural sensibility; and they sound nice too.

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, Alex, once again for posting those. I hope to hear the beautiful music from the lucky owners of these Lippi mandolins. Anyone we know, perhaps in Het Consort?

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## Graham McDonald

Alex, 

Do you know who supplies the tuners? Very elegant side mounts.

cheers

graham

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## cayuga red

Does anyone know if Lippi mandolins as well as any of the other new mandolins listed on this thread are available for purchase in the US? I started a thread elsewhere on the message board asking about the great classical mandolin builders and have been following the responses to that question with great interest. 

Thank you.

Red

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## Eugene

There are a couple features of Roman instruments you should try before committing. They have a very pronounced "V" neck profile, a very narrow fingerboard, and a very pronounced radius to the fingerboard.

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## Eugene

PS: These instruments tend to be custom built. I'm certain you could order almost any of them into the US, but they don't have anything like a mass-produced, Michael Kelly-like distribution.

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## cayuga red

Thank you Eugene. From what I've learned, I knew these were not factory-built instruments. I was wondering whether any of the foreign-based builders sold their mandolins through US shops or agents.  

Red.

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## Jim Garber

> Thank you Eugene. From what I've learned, I knew these were not factory-built instruments. I was wondering whether any of the foreign-based builders sold their mandolins through US shops or agents.


None that I know of. I don't think there is all that much interest in quality bowlbacks in the US, sad to say. Few stores are willing to carry a decent selection of mandolins and bowlbacks are in the serious minority. 

If you are serious, tho, it could be a good excuse for a European trip. I am sure that some of us bowlheads on either side of the pnd can help you plan your itinerary.

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## vkioulaphides

If you are asking whether you can actually go to some (hypothetical) music store in the U.S. and see --and, most importantly, _try_-- quality European bowlbacks for yourself, the answer is unfortunately a plain "no".  

If, on the other hand, you are simply asking whether such instruments can be _ordered_ from the U.S., well... of course! (That is, after all, how I got my Calace, about to turn 4 next month.  )

Eugene's point is salient: I know people who admit they simply CANnot play Roman instruments, especially due to those SUPER-narrow fingerboards-- I cannot argue for, or against other people's preferences. I would second Eugene's word of caution...

Best of luck with your quest.

Cheers,

Victor

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## cayuga red

Jim and Victor: Thank you both for your good advice. Jim, I have family in Florence, Italy so that would be my starting point. If I had, say 3 or 4 days to do some mando-related visits, who would you recommend I see and where in Italy are they located? 
Regards,

Red

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## cayuga red

Re my last post, I should add that I'd want to try bowl-backs not necessarily limited to one particular style of bowl-back.
Thanks again.

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## vkioulaphides

Well... Pandini is closer, i.e. in Northern Italy. Most mandolins, however, would be at the _opposite_ end of the peninsula, particularly in Naples a looooooooooooong trip, made even more so by the *ahem* _less than perfectly efficient_ Italian railways.  

Still, Naples is THE place. Before anything, I would try to contact Messrs Pandini, Lippi and (if the trip south is at all possible) Calace. Fellow Café denizens can surely hook you up with the appropriate addresses, phone numbers, etc.

Cheers,

Victor

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## Acquavella

Hi Alex, 

Do you have the contact details for Takusari? Nigel Woodhouse (UK) plays one that he bought ages ago. It sounded really good and very true to the original Emberghers. I believe Takusari is the luthier who inherited the original molds. I originally wanted to get one of his instruments but couldn't find his contact details anywhere. I also really like the look of Hendrik van den Broek's 5bis. How does it play in comparison to Embergher 5bis? Thanks for this post. 

Chris

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## vkioulaphides

> "I believe Takusari is the luthier who inherited the original molds."


Yes, I remember (vaguely, at least) that Takusari "inherited" much of the critical equipment of the Embergher shop from Pecoraro. But, of course, Alex can speak much more definitively on such matters than can I. 

I have not, however, seen/heard any of Takusari's instruments in person, nor even OF any relatively recent instrument of his. Henk is simply brilliant... I would LOVE to hear his "clone"!

Remind me, Chris: don't you play a creature of the Lippi/Roman consortium yourself? Or have I got it all confused, yet again? Heady stuff for a hack like me...

Cheers,

Victor

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## Acquavella

Hi Victor, 

Yes, I play a 5bis made by Nuova Liuteria Romana. It's Marco Onorati's company based in Rome. Cecconi did all of the wood work which is great. I am really happy with the instrument. I'm asking about the Takusari instrument...well mostly because MAS is getting the better of me. I have such a soft spot for these Roman instruments. Hendrik's is definitely on my list of interest. From the pic, the mandolin looks brilliant. I would love to hear one in person. Cheers. 

Chris

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## Jim Garber

> And the 5 bis Roman concert mandolin recently made by Hendrik van den Broek.


Surfing for something else I found Henrik's Web site.

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello all,

I thought it would be nice to share the developments on the re-birth of the _Roman_ mandolin making with you and also bring new life to this wonderful and most important topic.  

Next week mr. *Lorenzo Lippi*, master luthier from Milano, will come to Zwolle to bring the three concert mandolins he made for my students. These instruments - _two of them build after Luigi Embergher's No. 5bis concert models and one made after a concert model No. 5_ - are copies of original Embergher concert mandolins made in the period 1920-29. 
By viewing the photos mr. Lippi send me you can see that from the outside the instruments look like exact copies of Embergher's originals. Knowing that the inside is also build with great care ánd exactly in the stile of the original examples I am almost sure that they will sound as good as they look!

You probably can imagine that we here in Zwolle, are all very excited about mr. Lippi's outstanding work and that we look forward to meet him and be able to play his mandolins next week. 


Cheers for now, have a look at the photos below, and I'll keep you updated,

Alex.

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## vkioulaphides

GORGEOUS!!!  :Smile:   :Smile:   :Smile:  

Now... where did I put my _passport_?  :Wink: 

Congratulations to Sr. Lippi, Alex himself, and his MOST fortunate students.

Cheers,

Victor

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## Arto

Many thanks for Alex for this wonderful update!

Lippi, Liuteria Romana and Broeck have all links to their websites from Mandolin Cafe´s Eye Candy page. Unfortunately Sr Lippi´s is not very useful - no English, and not any special mention about him making Embergher copies?

Have I understood right - Lippi and Liuteria Romana are both making Embergher copies, no connection between them? Does Carlo Cecconi make the Liuteria Romana mandolins?

I agree it would be very interesting to know more about Mr Takusari... But I very much doubt the prices would be much higher than thought in some previous post. Japanese handcraft artists are expensive - I saw somewhere that a new biwa made by a good luthier would cost something around 10000 USD. Surely there´s much more market (and makers) for mandolins than biwas, but an Embergher-style mandolin is vastly more complicated instrument to make than a biwa.

It´s great that more and more high-class Embergher-style mandolins are made these days, and people like Alex are SO valuable in promoting this. Owning an original Embergher 5bis would be financially impossible for most people, and besides it doesn´t feel good to think of one in a collector´s vault or in hands of a mediocre amateur like myself - these belong to real musicians and thus to be enjoyed by their listeners, too. A thought of owning a modern one for one´s own pleasure does not produce guilt...   :Smile: 

Arto

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## Jim Garber

> Does Carlo Cecconi make the Liuteria Romana mandolins?


As far as I know, Sr. Cecconi has nothing to do with making of those mandolins. Marco has only informed me that they are made by a consortium of luthiers. That is all that is revealed.

The only people I know of who have these mandolins are Chris Aquavella and  Sonia Maurer (Marco's wife). I have not heard any reviews from Chris as to the quality of workmanship and sound of those.

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## Jim Garber

Having been a denizen of the Cafe for sometime. I have seen many beautiful photos of various mandolins, Loar copies and the like. Some of the photography is truly breathtaking. People are so very polite here and I do not mean to demena the work of any luthier but what I would love to hear would be a truly honest assessment of these beautiful instruments in comparison with what these luthiers are attempting to copy.

Alex, you are in the perfect position to give us that assessment. Would it be possible for you and your players to truly *honestly* assess the quality of sound and playability as compared to the works from the Embergher atelier. Certainly, if Sr. Lippi's works are equal to or surpass Embergher's then players would rejoice in the fact that they don't have to mortgage their house to get a new instrument. Or is there still a maturity or something else that is needed in these new instruments. Can we have a true AB test with some of the vintage Emberghers in your orchestra?

Sorry to be cynical, but I have played a few of the truly beautiful works from displayed in other areas of the Cafe and have been sorely disappointed with many of them. Cosmetics might be perfect but the true test is the sound. projection and playability.

My intent is not to denigrate any luthier's work, but to avoid the "here's today's Stradivari" syndrome, before it it viable.

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## Bob A

As much as I too would like to read an independent eval of the new vs old instruments, I it would be a difficult proposition.

First there's the whole idea of comparing something made last month to something made in 1920. Then setup issues arise: has the instrument in question been maximised for sound/playability, or is it "as found"? How about the player factor, when someone used to his own instrument and its quirks picks up a totally strange mandolin. Then there are interpersonal issues: will Luthier X wax wroth if his creation is dissed in public? How will that affect the situation regarding providing more instruments. Or perhaps personal and personality clashes which could skew reports.

This sort of thing has been going on continuously in the violin world, with no consensus so far, and none expected in this world or the next. I suspect it will come down to a player's individual taste and preference (as always), unless a given maker is producing a real dog, in which case the market will eliminate him from contention. 

Although there's always contention, seems like. Else why would this board exist?

All that said, I eagerly await the word, strictly as an onlooker, already swamped with too many mandolins and too little time or talent.

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## Jim Garber

Agreed, Bob, up to a point. I think constructive criticism is what is needed for luthiers. Personally i would prefer an instrument that sounds like a vintage Embergher than one that looks like one. I would prefer one with less than pristine workmanship to one that sounds and projects well. I think it is a service to luthiers to give them something to work towards. Just my 2 euros.

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## Arto

As much as I would LOVE to see a critical comparison, I´m sure Bob has very good points above. Comparing the situation in violin world was thought provoking - I know nothing about that world, but surely the question "who is making modern violins closest to Stradivari" will remain unanswered.

I think comparing modern Embergher copies to each other would be easier to carry out than comparing original vs modern, but this would still be very difficult. And if I think of myself in Alex´s position, having been working together with both Mr Lippi and Mr Broeck, I would not want to answer "who´s better?". Besides, both luthiers are producing new mandolins and probably learning more all the time - who knows how their instruments will be in five years? In ten years?

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## Jim Garber

Just to interject one more observation here. Yes, I would accept the proposition that aging and playing in an instrument makes a difference, but do bear in mind that these Emberghers and Strads were at one point bought as brand new instruments and were considered at the time to be among the best there is. My humble point here is: do these contemporary copies stand up to the same quality as what they are copying? 

I do believe that it is not only fair but sensible to compare the work of contemporary instruments with what they are copying. In the Loar F5 copy world there are certainly a few makers who have not only equaled but surpassed the quality of what they are copying and these instruments are often fresh off the luthier's bench.

I certainly accept the fact that there may be no real way of determining but direct experience of each of us. However, I say, let us certainly praise the beauty of these photos and the quality of the workmanship that is evident thru the photos. However, the proof of the pudding is in the eating (I think that is the saying) and before I plop down my $4000-5000 euros, I would want to be sure that I was getting something that was to be an ultra-fine instrument, esp if I were a professional player. otherwise, I would stick to the known quantity and put that money in the bank until I could afford the real thing.

So, yes, what I am asking is probably impossible from a number of points of view and I really don't want to put Alex (or the luthiers) in that untenable position. if nothing else, tho, I do want us all to think in terms of what we are looking for in the ultimate instrument, whether we are rank amateurs like myself or highly skilled professionals. I think we owe it to ourselves, the music as well as to the potential makers of our beloved instrument.

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## vkioulaphides

> ...otherwise, I would stick to the known quantity and put that money in the bank until I could afford the real thing.


But... you _do_ have the "real thing", Jim!  :Wink:  You are the (happy, I hope) owner of IMHO one of the loveliest, best built, best kept, best sounding (Embergher) Model A's I, for one, have EVER come across!  :Smile: 

So... why not put the requisite (and certainly not _vast_) dosage of currency-of-choice into getting _that_ instrument ~just~ the way you like it? After all and this, spoken by one with an unashamed "player bias" the "pudding" is the _playing_, no?

Cheers to one and all.

Victor

P.S. _After_ said adjustment(s), you may wish to head south, for duets + nosh at Ye Local Hellenic Diner.  :Wink:

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## Jim Garber

If you note, Victor, my phrasing in the conditional tense:




> before I plop down my $4000-5000 euros, I would want to be sure that I was getting something that was to be an ultra-fine instrument


I am all for these folks building these replicas but before we get all whoozy looking at photos of these undeniably beautiful instruments, I would like to be sure that we are not just looking at rote models of instruments but excellent instruments in their own right. I am getting older and more curmudgeoney, of course. 

And, of course, I do intend to get that Embergher in playing shape if I can find a person in the area I would trust to fine tune it. All that does not preclude playing some notes and sharing some Hellenic food.

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## margora

A few years ago I had the opportunity to play an Embergher 5bis, albeit very (very) briefly.  Last summer I had the opportunity to play very (very) briefly a Lippi mandola owned by a member of Het Consort (I heard the Lippi extensively, since I sat next to said mandolist).  Based on this admittedly extremely small sample and with the obvious caveat that I am comparing apples (mandolin) to oranges (mandola) I'd pick the Lippi.  Less expensive, won't break.

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## Acquavella

In regards to old and new......it depends on the person and instrument. My friend, Jeremy, who is principle bassist of the San Diego Symphony, perfers to play a NEW bass. He states that the level of luthiery skill for basses has changed over the years and that new basses are better than older ones. 

My opinion....if you are looking for an Embergher......you should do anything in your power to get the original. Mortgage your home, sell your car...etc. I play a modern Embergher 5bis because I won an award that only paid for NEW instruments. If I had the money to get an original I would definitely go for it. The one benefit that I have found from playing a modern 5bis is that I don't have some of the tuning problems or foibles that I've seen from older instruments. I don't have to worry that much about the instrument getting beat up from playing 6 hours a day and touring. It can easily be replaced if something happens. An original Embergher can not be easily replaced if something happens. Thats my 2 cents. 

I am happy with my instrument, even if I envy Alison for hers. :-)

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

First I'd like to respond on Arto's questions _(Quote: Have I understood right - Lippi and Liuteria Romana are both making Embergher copies, no connection between them? Does Carlo Cecconi make the Liuteria Romana mandolins?
I agree it would be very interesting to know more about Mr. Takusari...)_  with these remarks: 

Indeed the Liuteria Romana and Maestro Lorenzo Lippi and are both making Embergher copies, but do not have any connection or exchange of info on the making of Roman mandolins. Personally I know of Chris' Roman mandolin (that once was played by Sonia Maurer) and another one that I was fortunate to examine and play a bit in 2006 at the Convention held in the honor of the 150th birthday of Luigi Embergher in Arpino, Italy. At that particular occasion I met one of the luthiers of Marco Onorati's team responsible for the making of their Roman style mandolins. 
Talking to this woman and to Marco it became clear to me that they were not particular concerned in making exact copies after original examples of the Luigi Embergher models. Something that was already obvious to me by the example they had brought with them to show to the people at the Embergher convention. This mandolin, a nicely made and well sounding instrument, was certainly build in the Roman style but lacked the outward appearance of an Embergher (a Cerrone or even a Pecoraro) mandolin. But it was Roman in design and a mandolin with a good sound. 

About Arto’s 2nd question, whether Mr. Cecconi is involved in this all, I can only say that this is not very clear; I believe he is and from a reply by Chris Aquavella to this topic (see an earlier post by Chris on page one or so) I got the impression that Chris thinks or has been told that Mr. Cecconi is responsible for the woodwork of his Roman mandolin made by the Liuteria Romana.

This outward deviation from the original 'Embergher' design is, although to a lesser extend, also visible in the Roman mandolins made by Mr. Takusari from Japan. Like the mandolins by the Liuteria Romana, Takusari’s instruments are built in the characteristic teardrop design of the Roman mandolin. But also here we see that the head and sound hole inlay and the border lining of the sound table is simplified. The most important deviation and alterations from the original examples, and this is in my opinion of great consequence to the quality of sound, is that the bowl is constructed in a totally different manner. This does in my eyes no justice to the construction of the original Roman mandolins designed by Giovanni Battista Maldura, Giovanni De Santis, Luigi Embergher, Domenico Cerrone and Pasquale Pecoraro. 

All these aspects gave me nothing else to do than to inspire mandolin makers to make copies of original Luigi Embergher instruments of the Mandolin family. And because I believe very much in learning from feeling, looking and listening, thinking ánd studying, I asked for exact copies in the very first place. Copies build in the same - or as close as possible - manner and with replicas also of the old style metal tuning mechanisms, the hinge-hook string fasteners, the small Roman metal tail pieces etc. the old examples are applied with. The whole lot copied as close as possible. This because I think that the concert mandolin no. 5 and 5bis by Luigi Embergher and Domenico Cerrone are beyond compare and simply (speaking for myself here) esthetically excellent in their appearance. Nothing needs to be re-invented. It is all there. 
The main thing being, and this is the quintessence of it all, that the building process has to be fully understood. 

Two persons share their passion for the Roman mandolin and its excellent qualities with me; Hendrik van den Broek and Lorenzo Lippy. It is because of their great effort to study, restore and to make exact copies of the original Roman mandolins by Luigi Embergher (Domenico Cerrone etc.) that the Roman mandolin and the way it was build is better understood now. 
I believe that working in this way - making exact copies - will consequently also lead to become close(r) to the sound of the originals. As a matter of fact, I already have experienced that with the new Roman mandolins made by both makers.

And that of course is the ultimate goal. 

Believing in Human progress I am even convinced that eventually the old Luigi Embergher concert mandolins will be surpassed by contemporary (and/or future) makers both in sound and appearance. Aspects both relative and subject to tastes and modes etc. 

Because the instruments by the old masters mentioned above get more and more expensive and rare  we simply have to give today’s luthiers the trust and chance to work by commissioning them to make new instruments after old examples. Otherwise there is stagnation and no progress at all…


This weekend Maestro Lippi is coming and with him three beautiful looking new Roman concert mandolins (and guitars). A nice music party is in the making with most of my students ánd CONSORT members present to try the instruments, so I hope to be back to you with good news!


Cheers for now,

Alex.

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## Jim Garber

> About Arto’s 2nd question, whether Mr. Cecconi is involved in this all, I can only say that this is not very clear; I believe he is and from a reply by Chris Aquavella to this topic (see an earlier post by Chris on page one or so) I got the impression that Chris thinks or has been told that Mr. Cecconi is responsible for the woodwork of his Roman mandolin made by the Liuteria Romana.


Just to address this once again. I had written to Marco about these mandolins and the connection to Sr. Cecconi in 2006:




> The instruments that Marco Onorati is commissioning have nothing to do with Carlo Cecconi. The Nuova Liuteria Romana is a consortium of luthiers in Rome that Marco has commissioned to build the 5bis copies.
> 
> Here is a direct quote from Marco from April 2005:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> ...


This was from this thread.

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## etbarbaric

I have a smile on my face.  I had contemplated responding to this thread earlier, by saying simply that if Alex was satisfied, the rest of us would likely also be satisfied.  I think his post makes that point rather well... :-)

Going to these lengths to reproduce details may seem excessive, but I think it is not.  Copying here is not just a matter of reproducing the look of an instrument, but rather duplicating the approach taken by these very successful luthiers. In so doing, hopefully we learn new things (about materials, acoustics, and techniques) and understand reasons why things were done a certain way.  New approaches and "improvisations" are fine, but hopefully they are built on a solid foundation of understanding what came before.

Best,

Eric

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## vkioulaphides

Not wanting to offend —as these are turbulent waters, the "Stormy Forties" of the Seven Mando-Seas— I had not said much earlier, but I will add my twopence-worth, anyhow, hoping _some_ will agree.

I. French master-luthier Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume was, in his lifetime, derogatorily spoken of as "The Copyist". Humbled (perhaps) by his MONUMENTAL acquisition of Luigi Tarisio's unique instrumentarium (provenance of many, MANY of top-tier, extant Strads, Guarneris, etc.), he spent his entire career faithfully copying the Italian masters of (his) yesteryear. Thus there is no "Vuillaume _model_"— just excellent violins.

Speaking for myself alone, I'd gladly mortgage the house for the mandolin-equivalent of a Vuillaume violin. 

II. While we all revere and cherish fine, vintage mandolins, the only parties who ultimately profit from "vintage-worship" are instrument dealers, NOT musicians. Case in point: the finest bowed string instruments often end up in the hands (or rather air-tight vaults) of well heeled collectors, investment bankers, industrialists, artsy CEOs, quirky millionaires, private museum-buffs, and the like. Have any of you _heard_ any of these instruments _played_ lately?

I'd rather _listen_ to a lovely modern instrument, say, by Sr. Lippi, than vicariously share the joy of, say, the Ritz'n'Artsy family, upon their (hypothetical, of course) acquisition of all remaining Embergher concert-mandolins.

I do not wish to slander anyone, of course, but only voice the biases and predilections of a *musician*, for whatever they're worth.  :Wink: 

Cheers,

Victor

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## Jim Garber

But Victor, my good friend, both you and I can talk, but we are both the owners of lovely but modest vintage Emberghers. I think the ultimate question, to me at least, is do these contemporary makers measure up in quality to the vintage ones. If so, I say, yes, that is wonderful and I am all for it. 

However, there is a reason why these older instruments got for high prices: a) you cannot buy a genuine new instrument made by the hands of Embergher, Cerrone, and Pecoraro and b) people are willing to pay the prices asked. It is exactly the same for those makers here in the US who copy the work of Gibson during the Lloyd Loar era. Some have probably surpassed those mandolins in terms of quality and those few makers do charge high prices but there are also a larger group who make mandolins more affordable to players.

In any case, if these Lippi 5 bis mandolins are every bit the quality of a 5bis Embergher, that would be a wonderful thing. In any case, I would hope that if not, Sr, Lippi would continue to strive in that direction, esp to make an excellent instrument suitable for playing fine music.

----------


## Acquavella

Hello, 

Right, lets sort out some of these details. Cecconi had nothing to do with the building of my instrument. (My misunderstanding from broken Italian messages). My 5bis was built by two makers: Milena Di Fabio and Mauro Carpiceci. I pinned down Marco for some details yesterday. 

"Personally I know of Chris' Roman mandolin (that once was played by Sonia Maurer) and another one that I was fortunate to examine." 

Sonia never owned my mandolin. It was built for me with my input on design. Hence some of the strange, non-Embergher ornaments...ie...no ivory binding or flowers on fingerboard. My Pandini had ebony binding and no fret ornaments. I based my Embergher copy on that instrument. I have always prefered blank fretboards. I would do this differently given a second chance. I believe Sonia had an instrument made for her but not sure. I only know of it through Jim's post. I also think that Pierangelo Fevola plays a Nuovo Liuteria Romana 5bis. I've seen it in some of his Youtube videos and it too is missing Embergher-ish ornaments. His does not have a pick guard at all and I believe has ebony binding. 

Whether it is a replica or an original Embergher.....I love them either way. Every instrument has its own personality. I played Alison's mandolin and loved it from day one. I played Hugo D'Alton's mandolin and hated it after ten minutes. That was almost four years ago. It might be the other was around given another go. 

I think that it is wonderful that there are two luthiers making exact Embergher replicas and other luthiers continuing the roman tradition. Lippi and Broek weren't around when I won the award (or not so advertised) or I might have very well ended up with one of their instruments. It is just awesome that we have a good selection of new classical mandolin makers whether they are German, Italian or American. Some of my students are trading in their flatbacks for the bowl. One bought an original 1919 Embergher, another a new Calace Classico A and another is getting an Albert & Mueller. It brings a tear to my eye....

----------


## Eugene

...And way peripheral, but I have seen a fine guitar from Vuillaume's shop.  As might be expected, it was typical of the guitars of Vuillaume's day and had nothing to do with copying Stradivari's guitars.

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## Richard Walz

Dan Larson just made an Embergher concert mandolin :




This instrument has a slightly wider fingerboard and is convincing example of the Roman instrument.

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## vkioulaphides

WOW! 

Dear friends, whatever minor divergences of opinion there may be between us, I think that ALL of us must take great joy and delight in the fact that such fine instruments are now being built, and by so many different luthiers! Only a few years ago, these latest developments would have been beyond even our wildest dreams.

I will close by agreeing with Jim: yes, let us hope these "neo-Roman" instruments are brilliant, and/or that they will continue to progress in that direction. No one can deny that they've gotten off to an EXCELLENT start!  :Smile: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

Nice to see that D. Laeson is getting into the game.

Two questions come to mind for Richard's new Larson: is the bowl lined with spruce or paper, and is the fretboard wider on the bass side (both features of the original Embergher design)?

I would take gentle exception to Victor's comment that only dealers profit from the vintage market, insofar as the removal of an exemplary instrument from the concert circuit has the advantage of preserving the instrument more or less intact, to the benefit of future makers and players. It can serve as a sort of template in that way, and it has to be said that professional play can be rough on a musical instrument - not only from vigorous musicians, but from the perils of travel. More than one Strad has come to grief this way, for example.

----------


## Richard Walz

spruce lining. Not sure what you mean by wider on bass side? Fingerboard is more like the Pecorraro version than the ultra narrow Embergher.

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## Schlegel

> spruce lining. Not sure what you mean by wider on bass side? Fingerboard is more like the Pecorraro version than the ultra narrow Embergher.


I think he meant _thicker_, i.e., the fingerboard is, in effect, tilted along its longitudinal axis. Although if the fingerboard is radiused I suppose "rotated to the treble" is more accurate terminology.  :Confused:

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## Bob A

Thicker, yes indeed. Perhaps I'm somewhat rotated toward the treble today, myself.

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## Jim Garber

That is very interesting, Richard. Was this one built for you?

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## Acquavella

Richard, 

That mandolin looks awesome. For some reason I thought you had a 5bis model made for you. Larson did a really nice job on that instrument. Looking forward to hearing it. 

Chris....

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## Jim Garber

That is a nice instrument, Richard. Having actually played one of Daniel's older ones, I have to say he is on the right track in terms of sound quality. The one I played (Matt's) was quite sweet... definitely reminiscent of the Vega sound.

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## Neil Gladd

Just a reminder that my fellow Virginia Tech graduate, Brian Dean, is also making Roman mandolins in Canada.

http://www.labraid.ca/

I haven't seen any of the instruments by the makers in this thread in person, but I think we ought to list them all.

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## Eugene

Wow, nice.  Where is Dan getting his hardware?

I'm looking forward to meeting Brian and seeing his mandolins in Dayton this autumn.

I was sorely tempted to place an order with Brian.  I finally settled (at least this time) on having an up-and-coming local luthier friend of mine concoct a more Neapolitan-like model.  I'll post more on that elsewhere as appropriate.  Still, one day I may dabble in the Roman type...and maybe even the German.

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## Jim Garber

> Where is Dan getting his hardware?


I don't know where Dan got his but Kurt DeCorte sells repro Embergher parts.

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## Eugene

I figured it might be DeCorte, but also thought it would be worth knowing if there were other options available.

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## Richard Walz

The tailpiece was made (Dan's instrument) by Henk (friend of Alex), the tuners are modified Schallers, repro tuning machines from Italy cost a small fortune (understandably).

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

As promised, here is something more to (hopefully) enjoy about the new Roman mandolins build by Maestro Lorenzo Lippi from Milano.

Of course the internet sound quality is not to compare with that of a mastered CD, but listening to the YouTube links below, perhaps gives an idea of what it is all about. My apologies for the poor video quality of Ugo Bottacchiari's _'Tramonto Di Maggio'_. But since it is such a nice and original tremolo composition (ánd combination; three mandolins and a mandola) - ánd the only piece that I video taped at the party on which all the instruments, mandola included, are made by Lorenzo Lippi, I felt I simply had to show you. The other video shows me playing Johann Sebastian Bach's _Prelude_ of his first violoncello Suite (BWV 1007) on Lippi's Palissander bowl Model No. 5bis Concert Mandolin. Since the owner was on vacation this past month I was fortunate to have the instrument at my disposal and to play it.   




and the 2nd video:




Best,

Alex

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## Richard Walz

Very nicely played Alex but I do find the sound somewhat overly metallic... perhaps just the recording quality. Visually the instrument is extremely convincing.

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## brunello97

Thank you, Alex, this a very nice pair of performances to wake up to,  quando oggi e il tramanto di Giugno. 

Mick

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## vkioulaphides

Oh, I LOVE the _Tramonto_!  :Smile:  It is a very attractive instrumentation, by the way, and a sweet, lovely piece. And what a lovely performance of it! The performance of the Bach by Alex was another, highly enjoyable experience (now that a brief respite from my crazy schedule finally allowed me to listen to these). As for the instruments, they are gems, each and every one of them.

_Bravi tutti!_

Victor

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Richard, Mick and Victor et all,

Glad to read that you all appreciate the instruments of Lorenzo Lippi so well. Indeed, they show the finest workmanship and when compared in appearance with the concert models made in the Embergher atelier (Arpino) they are excellent! And although l do not like to compare 'sound' (I prefer it to judge sound, resonance and sustain etc. as it comes to my ear, feeling and taste) I think the Roman instruments made by Maestro Lippi can pass such a test. Speaking of 'feeling'; valuable to me is also that playing Lippi's mandolins gives the idea of playing a genuine Roman (Embergher) mandolin. They play well and 'feel' extremely good in the hands and that is of course very important also.

And Richard,_




 Originally Posted by Richard Walz


Very nicely played Alex but I do find the sound somewhat overly metallic... perhaps just the recording quality. Visually the instrument is extremely convincing.


_ you're right, I also find the recorded sound of the video to be somewhat 'pinny'. The mandoline was, at the time the video was shot, strung with new Lenzner Consort strings and that is perhaps another another reason why the instrument sounded a bit harsh also.
But the detailed sound or perhaps better the typical 'sandy' sound together with the long-sounding tone quality of these Lippi models (and the other 4 instruments by Lorenzo made that I have heard and played) is very similar to the 'Embergher' concert mandolin models. Certainly at the moment (I still have the mandolin at my disposal), for the strings have settled down, and the sound is much more milder now. 

All in all, I am very pleased with the instruments, the comments  etc. and happy for the future of the 
Modern Roman Mandolin.


Best regards,

Alex.

PS. I have just made another video with the same wonderful music. Only this time I play it, as I like this music best to be played and heard on our instruments, on a Mandoloncello. This one is made in 1925 by Luigi Embergher. I hope you all will enjoy it!

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## mandolinoitaliano

Hello evrybody from Marco Onorati
first of all sorry for my english, is no perfect :-)

I saw that I was "nominated" here and so I decided to send this my message to expalin little better our work around Embergher World.

to start some clarifications: I rapresent a team but Lorenzo Lippi and Carlo Cecconi are not direct connected with Nuova Liuteria Romana but they are our good friends. They are great Liuther and their instruments are simply Fantastic!!!!

Alex said that we do not produce exact copies of Embergher 5 Bis but it's no correct.
We produce exactly copies of Embergher 5 Bis mandolin but he only saw and tried for few minutes Sonia Maurer mandolin, and effectivly this mandolin is no a perfect copy because it's a personalized mandolin: it's a perfect copy like forms but its scaratchplate is designed especially for Sonia. And maybe Alex couldn't appreciate really well the musical potential of the SOnia mandolin because in  situation we met  there were a big confusion and crowd...... But I can assure you that we have received compliment from all around the world, especially from Japan.
However in general we produce perfect copies; Chris Acquavella mandolin is a perfect copy (thanks Chris for your words about our product....).

if somebody's reading here could be interested I can send photos of our 5 Bis.

We studied a lot of Embergher 5 bis before starting the production of this instruments.

We had in the past some problem to define and realiza some particular, like tuning machine or tailpiece, but now we solved this problem.

If somebody have couriosity or question about my works, my team, and so on, please contact me directly.

Ciao from ROMA - Italy

Marco

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Marco,

Good to hear from you here at the messageboard. And you are right, we only had very little time to play and examine Sonia's Roman mandolin. And as you will most certainly remember you also brought this very beautiful ánd old Luigi Embergher with you that also caught my attention. The one that Sonia played with us in the music interval. 
But back to the exact copies... For me - and surely at that time - my personal interest was indeed focused on _exact_ copies. And that is because I like the looks of the Embergher concert mandolins and think (thought) that this would, in several ways, be a great challenge for the luthier to (re)produce. Ánd, if going that far, one would perhaps come closer to the 'real' thing in a shorter period of time.  
The mandolins of Lorenzo Lippi and Hendrik van den Broek are very, very close to the original (Embergher) Roman concert mandolins and I am happy with what they have accomplished.

At this moment I can say that exact copies are not such a great issue anymore for me - it helped as a part for understanding the process of making. What I am more concerned with now is the sound of the instruments. 
Eventually luthiers who are busy making these kinds of mandolins as close as possible to the originals will succeed and come up, I am sure, with excellent instruments. Perhaps even better than the originals! 
I am happy to hear now that your Nuova Liuteria Romana luthiers also make exact copies. It would be nice for us all if you could display one or more photos here at this topic. Really, the more who are busy making excellent instruments the better. I would love to play an example of your company next time we meet. With such a commitment as you display in your post above, am sure it will be excellent!


Cheers and best regards,

Alex

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## mandolinoitaliano

Hello Alex,
nice to hearing you here.... :Smile: 
I wish only add a clearification about our works on Embergehr 5 Bis mandolin.

We are not focusing our attention to try to reproduce an exact copy for aesthetic reasons; 

yes of course we try to have this result too and now I think that we are compliance also with target.


But our intention is reproduce the Embergher mandolin with the musicians point of view, so we are focusing our work to reproduce the sound, the easy fingerboard Embergher produced, and all the musical feauteres of the original Embergher mandolin.
In other terms we try to produce an high level  musical instrument.
THis is because you can have an exact copy of the mandolin, but it will be a copy for ever and not an original.
So we think that it's better try to reproduce the original musical features that have made this mandolin so famous

Ciao

Grazie

Marco

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## vkioulaphides

I've been looking at the icon of Alex' performance repeatedly while on vacation, from this or that internet cafe, but never had the time (let alone the bandwidth) to actually watch the video. Having just returned, I have made amends to my nagging conscience, and have thoroughly enjoyed that Greatest Prelude Ever Written. Bravo! As always, not only a skillful, but a musically intelligent performance I would have expected no less than that from an artist such as Alex, needless to say. The instrument itself is not too shabby, either.  :Wink: 

Cheers,

Victor

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## labraid

Here's one just completed:





I would like to thank Lorenzo Lippi for his wonderful plans and dedication to this instrument!

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Brian, 

Your Roman mandolin looks wonderful. Really nice work! 


Best greetings, 

Alex

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## Alex Timmerman

And hello Victor,

Thank you for your nice comment on my Bach Prelude playing on the Mandoloncello. It's it is greatly appreciated!

Best,

Alex

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## Jim Garber

Beautiful mandolin, Brian. I can't tell from the photos but is the fretboard radiussed? Are those bar frets? Did you adhere strictly to Sr. Lippi's plans or use them as a springboard and add your own creative input.

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## vkioulaphides

Brian, my friend... I am left speechless by the beauty of your creation! WOW! I look forward to actually _hearing_ one of your babies in live performance.

Alex: you are very welcome! You truly make the 'cello _sing_!

Cheers to one and all.

Victor

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## Bob A

Gorgeous. I do love maple bowls, and this instrument demonstrates why that is so.

Is the board thicker on the bass side?

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## labraid

My fretboard is indeed radiused, but a little bit differently so. What I did was to keep the stark radius of the Embergher at the nut, but then flatten it out as it approaches the bridge. If you place a ruler across the tops of strings at the bridge, all will touch the ruler as opposed to the ruler rocking over them. This is indicative of a theoretical radius _under_ those strings, albeit very slight...  



The frets actually are not bar but the more modern tanged variety. They are tall and very narrow. For fretting accuracy. As well they are made of stainless steel for brighter tone and extra life.
The board is thicker on the bass side, thinner on the treble, but mostly so nearest the nut becoming less so towards the highest frets. At the bridge -- a ruler placed across the tops of the strings -- the strings do not point into the table/soundboard as on the Embergher. Rather the ruler would be more or less parallel with the top. My reason for the change: I don't believe pick action should be directed along a plane leading _into_ the delicate table of the instrument. The table is sure to see fewer pick marks over its life this way... (Of course there are many virtousi who would never scar a top in any case!)
Some more technically minded would perhaps say that the reason for the angled bridge is a tonal one? -- that perhaps that the shorter bridge (on the treble side) compliments and sweetents the treble range? To answer, I addressed said concerns in the bracing arrangement -- loosening the braces with the addition of what are technically known as "flying" braces. In essence, the bracing does not touch along the entire join with the top, only where it is of benefit. Each brace is strategically weakened in various innocuous locations, such that the weakened bridge (butterfly cut: lower bridge stiffness as in a violin) is no longer necessary. The top in this case is allowed much more flexibility, all the while keeping a very structural arch. You could think of it as a suspension bridge...
The more I learn about bracing, the more I find it matters where they are 25%, how they are 75%. I used the traditional Embergher pattern, just in an innovative way.

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## Richard Walz

Very, very interesting and I am anxious to see and try your mandolin. Richard
P.S. The mandolins of the virtuosi are always marked up (scratched up). You would need to cover the entire lower part of the mandolin to protect the wood for the type of player who needs to project and looks for sounds everywhere on the instrument.

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Brian, great work!
Do you make them with 35 ribs?(more or less?)
greetings

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## labraid

Giannis, my friend, correct you are. 34 is the magic number, a member of the base Fibonacci series. In fact, this is far from the only use of Fibonacci in the Embergher mandolin -- one of the reasons I hold such a fascination for the instrument. Here you can see the ribs for my new Orchestral model, about to begin layup. It must be a very similar process for bouzoukia?

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Brian
Thank you for the responce.Is exactly the same process to build a bouzouki or a laouto except from the fact that the body(bowl or skafos in greek)is build seperately from the neck.
Beautifull work.

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## Jim Garber

Brian:
Will we ever get you back in the US for us to see your work? Or will we have to all make a trip to NS to see and play in person? It sounds like you are working in the right direction. Keep us posted.

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## labraid

Jim, as a matter of fact, this one will be coming with me for CMSA Dayton. Jonathan Rudie will have his Labraid 5-bis, and so anyone interested in either style would not have far to look at the convention. 
I'd look forward very much to seeing you all there if you can make it.

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## MLT

> Jim, as a matter of fact, this one will be coming with me for CMSA Dayton. Jonathan Rudie will have his Labraid 5-bis, and so anyone interested in either style would not have far to look at the convention. 
> I'd look forward very much to seeing you all there if you can make it.


Unfortunately, Labraid LVI and I will not be able to attend the Dayton convention this year to do family health issues.  I am, however, looking forward to the 2010 Convention.

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## vkioulaphides

(An aside, as Dayton and the academic calendar, to which I'm tethered, are incompatible.  :Frown:  )

MLT, I hope said family health issues become a thing of the past-- and soon, too! 

Cheers,

Victor

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello friends,


News about a just finished Modern Roman concert mandolin!

Last weekend Hendrik van den Broek came over to our home bringing with him a brand-new mandolin. This time the instrument was made after a *Luigi Embergher* Model No. 6 for _'concertists and soloists'_ made in the late 1920-ties. Indeed the one with the 'Dragon' scratch plate, 39 (sometimes even 40) sculpted ribs and ivory (like) ornament linings at the sides of the bowl. For the rest Embergher’s intentions to develop this particular model were the same as with his concert models No. 5 and 5bis. 

And it is just an absolute wonderful concert mandolin! With regard to the excellent craftsmanship ánd - most important - to where it's sound is concerned. The mandolin has a very loud tone and an incredible long sustain; the 4th and 3rd strings do ring on (and on) and the 2nd is very much there. With the clear tone of the 1st string pair they're all well in balance. 
As is usually the case with Embergher concert mandolins the top-string pair is brilliant and powerful - a difficult to capture characteristic - but one that I believe is also the apparent in Hendrik van den Broek's latest Modern Roman Concert mandolin. 

Apart from this, I also noticed that this mandolin had this wonderful 'sandy' - I don't have an other word for it - Embergher sound quality; an overall kind of resonance I personally like very much and that I found in Hendrik's mandolin also. 

A great achievement, I must say, and one that makes me very happy for the future of the Modern Roman concert mandolin!

To show Hendrik's latest mandolin I have made a little video with Victor's *'Diferencias'* (hope that's OK with you Victor) on it. I hope you will get an idea and can enjoy the sound and craftsmanship of the instrument. The mandolin is strung with Bronze wound *'Consort'* strings made by the German *FISOMA* string makers Company and played with the long two pointed 'Roman' plectrum made (sometime _looooong_ ago) from a tortoise shell of a turtle. 

Thanks go to Hendrik and to Victor; without their enthusiasm and work this all would not have been possible!


Enjoy and best greetings,

Alex

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## vkioulaphides

Absolutely GORGEOUS, in both _appearance_ and (most importantly) _sound_. Please convey my most enthusiastic congratulations to Hendrik.

I am profoundly honored to see my music serve as vehicle for such instruments, as the instruments are reciprocally the vehicles for the music. Music is, after all, the Great Synergy of Humanity, IMHO.

Quick! Someone, ANYone... put in an order for one of Hendrik's GLORIOUS instruments! And Brian's! And Sr. Lippi's! Friends, Romans...!  :Wink: 

Cheers to one and all,

Victor

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## JeffD

It all comes together, the instrument, the player, the music. Really beautiful.

The volume and tone on that thing are impessive. I would love to hear one live and in person, without microphone or amp.

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## MMDavis

Great sounding instrument - clear, crisp, and full - let's not forget that the player's hand must take some of the credit - great playing, Alex!

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Victor, Jeff and Mark and Richard,

Thanks for you nice comments on Hendrik's latest mandolin and my playing it. I will of course inform Hendrik, but I can tell already that you can be sure it is very much appreciated by both of us.

There were some questions e-mailed to me about where the metal sleeve gard at the base of the mandolin and the tuners were made. Well the sleeve gard is completely made by Hendrik van den Broek himself. The tuners, this time (he normally makes these also) are made in Germany, but the white ivory-like buttons and the ornament points at both ends of the metal plates that carry the gears, are done by Hendrik. 
The wonderful thing of these wonderful new Roman mandolins is that the makers (those that I know personally; Lorenzo Lippi, Hendrik van den Broek. And, as I was told by Marco Onorati, also about the makers he works for) is that Roman mandolins can be ordered to be made to one's own wishes. For instance the width (or better the narrowness) of the fingerboard at the nut is an often point of discussion. 

Most mandolinists of today - and especially those players who are not used to play the Roman mandolin types models - like a wider or slightly wider fingerboard under the first 7 or so frets. Of course there will be (probably-maybe always) the question whether the typical playing technique required to really master the "today often unknown and untold" advantages (above other makes) of the Modern Roman concert mandolin is violated through this or not. 

The same thing can be said about the 'V'-shaped neck of these instruments. Often people find this to pronounced for their taste, not knowing how to 'handle' it. Something likely that always has been an issue for we see a clear 'V'-shape change during the entire existence of the 'Embergher' atelier and the time there after, when the Modern Roman mandolin production in the style of Embergher was only continued by Pasquale Pecoraro. The 'V'-shaped neck of his mandolins were, most likely on demand of his customers, much more rounded. People nowadays are also larger. Hands and finger tips too. 
Time, music, taste, technique, etc. all change and that's simply how it is. I am not worried by this at all. What matters most is the sound of these mandolins. The appreciation of it remains unaffected as long as we do not alter the sound chamber of the Modern Roman mandolin. For me that makes the difference.


Oh yes, the questions whether the instrument was ordered by me or if it was for sale; well the answer to both is a simple 'no'. The mandolin is bought by, if I remember well, a French mandolinist and is out of my and Hendrik's sight now. I only had it for two days and had to give it back. Hopefully the owner likes it as much as I did.   


Best greetings,

Alex.


PS. _For more information, please visit Hendrik's website. Here is the link:_ http://www.embergher-mandolin.com/pageID_8978252.html

----------


## vkioulaphides

There appears indeed to be a U/V-neck "convergence" of sorts. My modern (2004) Calace, for example —as "thoroughbred" as _Neapolitan_ house-brands can ever get— has a very thin neck that tapers SO very much towards the peghead that it is ~almost~ a "V" at the very, very end. The width at the nut is 26 mm., i.e. only a tad wider than original Emberghers. So, while it is unmistakably Neapolitan, it is also slightly "Romanized"— all of which adds up to a very, VERY handy and comfortable "player's instrument".  :Smile: 

By the way, I was very impressed by the way you handle Hendrik's beautiful instrument, Alex. Your (left-hand) thumb seems perfectly well balanced against that pesky V-neck (*he, he*), yet so loose, so supple... I have yet to figure out how to do that. Ah, perhaps in _another life_...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Victor and all,

Thank you for your reply and your keen observation of my left-hand thumb and position!

As you might know my personal 'style' of playing is one of constant development, but for people here at the Message Board it might be more understandable to start somewhat before this Left Hand and LH-thumb issue and to first dig a bit deeper in the interesting and important matter of sitting with, holding and playing the mandolin. 'Interesting' because there is this wonderful history from the past that helps to find one's way in how to hold and play the mandolin (and why...) and 'important' because there is a lot unclear to those who like to take up, or already play, the instrument. And not only among students; for teachers also. For often they are unaware about what the benefits of such changes can mean for the playing posture and the free unhindered postitions of the R- and L-hands. Changes that could be seen as improvements in general, and - more focused - as the approach to help develop the capabilities of the individual student.

For a good and fine interpretation of a composition it is important to find a clever LH fingering and a thoughtful use of the plectrum strokes. I remember years ago that I e-mailed back to you the score of your *'Diferencias'* with above almost every note a RH up or down stroke, and a 1 or 2, or 3, or 4 LH finger indication. Of course, not every piece needs this, but when music has a complicated structure in which polyphony and/or harmony simply needs to be heard, it is a good thing to know what one does and to be aware of what one can do. 

Together with my students we always study the possibilities of how to find the most natural ánd comfortable way of sitting, holding ánd playing the mandolin. This is often (slightly) different for each individual. Most of the time, with young children, this is a development that begins right at the start of their mandolin study, but sometimes also with players that have been playing in an other manner for many years. The position(s) of the RH, use of the plectrum, the position(s) of the LH and LH-thumb and the choise which LH-fingers to place on the notes of a particular composition, are always a matter of insight, feeling and discussion. 

For me, the long Italian tradition ánd the many fine methods of the late 19th and early 20th century are the basis of my teaching. The experience and knowledge found in this tutors are, so to speak my 'points of departure'. 
Essentials are: to sit straight; to hold the mandolin in such a way that it doesn't slip away while playing (this counts for the entire time a compostion or a movement lasts - relax between pieces); to have enough room for the arm of LH in the higher positions; and - above all - to create a playing manner that gives your body a good feeling. The whole time you play and study the instrument during the day. 
From that the handling and use of the plectrum, the positions of the Right-hand and -fingers (thumb included) and finger placement are to the follow. 

One of the contemporary concert pieces for solo mandolin requires a good use of the plectrum is, in my opinion your composition *'Diferencias'*. A lot can be learned from this beautiful work. Each student has to go through the music him/herself and find his/her own approuch to tackle the 'problems'. Always, of course, with the instructions seen through the notes of the music. During the lessons we will then select the best options the music asks for, and possibilities for the player to play it. 

This being said, there is - as you all know - the fact that from the 1740-ties there exists two Italian 'Schools of mandolin making'. The instruments made in these 'Schools' in the last two decennia of the 19th century became known as improved modern instruments named more specifically as the *Mandolino 'Modello Romano'* and the *Mandolino 'Modello Napolitano'*. Each with their own appearances and typical characteristics, ánd - also of great importance - choises of plectrum shape and how to hold and play with them. Features and historic developed preferences that have, in my opinion, their own effect on how these two Italian mandolin types sound and were (and are) played (best). 

But that I will try to explain in my next contribution here.


Best,

Alex

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## vkioulaphides

I was somewhat reluctant to be the one to break the post-Christmas quiet and/or was still under the lingering after-effects of _aguardiente_  :Wink:   but, now that the silence has been broken, I look forward to your explanation, Alex.

OK, let the recovery begin... 

Cheers,

Victor

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## Margriet

Many thanks for posting this, Alex, and sharing your knowledge and experience. I appreciate this a lot !! I look every day on cafe if there is already the continuing of the story.
Margriet

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Victor, Margriet and all,

The past weeks I have been a bit to busy to continue on the topic of the Left Hand technique and the position of the left hand thumb. But I did not stop thinking how to explain by thoughts about it. Now I have to write it down and make some photos to illustrate it all. That will take some more time but stay tuned...
It will also be a new topic thread.


Best. 

Alex

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi all, 

Here is a photo of one of Lorenzo Lippi's latest instruments. This time it is a wonderful Modern Roman Concert Mandolin made after Luigi Embergher's Mandolino artistico Model No. 7.


Best greetings,

Alex.

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## vkioulaphides

GLORIOUS!

That sure makes my day :-) Thank you for posting it, Alex.

Cheers,

Victor

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## Acquavella

Hi ALex, 

That is a beautiful instrument. Especially like the wood engraving on the spine. Very clean and authentic work. Bravo Lippi!!

Chris...

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello All,

Yesterday evening Hendrik van den Broek came by to show his latest build 5bis Roman Concert mandolin. So we organized a true mandolin party, with losts of playing and mandolin talking. In short: we had a great time with yet another excellent build ánd wonderful sounding instrument made by Hendrik van den Broek. 

Greetings, Alex.

Here are some photos:

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## Jim Garber

Alex:
So how many of those instruments in the group photo were made by Hendrik?

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## vkioulaphides

WONDERFUL! Such lovely instruments... I am sure they sing like nightingales in the hands of Sebastiaan and Ferdinand :-)

Cheers to all, and warmest congratulations to Hendrik.

Victor

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim, 

Only one.


Best, Alex

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## Margriet

> WONDERFUL! warmest congratulations to Hendrik.
> 
> Victor


A midsummernight’s dream……..

Awaken up from a sleep of about 4 1/2 hours I wonder if what happened this night was real.

I had seen in this thread, that Hendrik just had finished a new 5bis.  As I asked Hendrik in February of this year to make me one, I was very curious to know how mine would be and explore it “live”, with my own senses: ears, eyes, touch. An e-mail and a phone call did make me sit late at night in Alex’ house, with Hendrik beside me and the mandolin on my lap.

It was a great experience. Mastership. 
Of Hendrik, the luthier, of Luigi Embergher, of my teacher Sebastiaan, of Alex, always inspiring and having such great knowledge of the mandolin, its history and playing and always willing to share his knowledge.

I like the old mandolins being saved and get playable again and I had to make a step over a bridge for a new-made instrument. The video of Hendrik’s nr. 6 in this thread made me to do this step. And I am VERY happy I did. To play on such a quality instrument, with all the possibilities for nuances in playing, it is a delight. And the eyes see something very beautiful and elegant, a masterpiece.

I do not play yet on high level, but I am sure an instrument like this will help me in developing. It “gives’, you can enjoy the results in sound of what you are doing, with all the nuances and colours that are in.
It is like all mastership of the past is combined, and thinking on the trees that gave their wood, the people that gave the energy, wisdom, love and skills, I have no words to express my respect.

I drove home, in the early hours of the morning, on very quiet roads ( which all seem to have work and diversions), with full moon and morning mist and arrived almost two hours later, with still lots of energy. (yes Jim, even in the Netherlands with the small distances and a good luthier at hand, you have to drive hours and make shipping costs for having your instrument repaired or made…..the ocean is not the big problem)
After drinking an ouzo in bed with my dear husband I felt asleep with a smile and awoke with this midsummer night’s dream.

Margriet

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## vkioulaphides

I am sure that the ouzo was the _critical_ factor behind that smile ;-)

Lucky you!

Cheers,

Victor

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## Giannis Tsoulogiannis

Wonderfull Instrument!Great work!

Ouzo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZH2cKENKFI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h03P_...next=1&index=8
OPA-OPLES!!

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## Margriet

Hahahahahahaha !

Thank you,
what I am without the Greek humour ?

Giannis, the last video reminds me that I promised to make baklava for my neighbour.... and I am VERY late... hurry now.

Cheers,

Margriet

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

Just back from France but still enjoying the Summer holiday and for that I am busy with the videos I shot of Hendrik van den Broek's latest made Roman concert mandolin being played. It is the instrument I mentioned in my last post here, right above this one. 

The first video shows Sebastiaan de Grebber trying out the mandolin with the Preludio of the Partita No. 3 in E major (BWV 1006) by Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750). 


Enjoy!

Alex.

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## Alex Timmerman

And here is Ferdinand Binnendijk enjoying the same mandolin with a more arpeg- and tremolesque piece; the 12th 'Capricci-Studi'  for mandolin solo (Op.17) by Carlo Munier (1859-1911).

Best greetings,

Alex

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## MandoNicity

Thanks for posting Alex.  I really enjoyed it.

JR

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## DougC

Yes, very nice playing and nice recording, it sounds good in that room.

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## Alex Timmerman

Thanks JR and DougC, 

your reply is much appreciated and I will forward them to Sebastiaan en Ferdinand.
I hope to post two more videos of their playing Hendrik van den Broek's new mandolin.
In de mean while here are some photos to enjoy.

Best, Alex.

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## KristinEliza

*drool*

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## vkioulaphides

LOVED it all: mandolin, mandolinists, and repertoire! (I will soon have my own, humble contribution to make to the _Capriccio_ genre; stay tuned... ;-)

Bravo to all, and especially to Hendrik. This instrument, truly, has it all!

Cheers,

Victor (still Boeing-buzzed, but home :-)

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## John Goodin

Thanks to Alex for posting this beautiful performance of the Bach by Sebastian! I haven't heard Ferdinand's performance yet but I found the Preludio to be very beautiful, not overly flashy or fast. A real treat for me at the close of a long, very hot day.

John G.

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## mandobuzz

Wow, fantastic performances. A real pleasure to listen to. Thanks for posting Alex.

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi KristinEliza, Mandobuzz, John G., Victor and all,

I am happy to see you liked the photos and playing of Sebastiaan and Ferdinand! 
And as said earlier, here is one more video with Sebastiaan trying out the Hendrik van den Broek's mandolin. The very same 5bis Roman Concertmandolin as was used in the Bach Preludio (3rd Partita). During that morning in July Sebastiaan also played Raffaele Calace's Preludio No.II. 

I hope you like it.


Best greetings from Zwolle,

Alex.

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## Alex Timmerman

Here is the link to YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zVqVuZeS20

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

Just to up-date you all I thought I had to post these photos of Lorenzo Lippi's latests mandolins; a new Concert Mandolin Mod. No. 5 and a new Artistic Concert Mandolin Mod. No. 7. 

Superb and excellent work! 


Enjoy and best,

Alex.

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## vkioulaphides

BEAUTIFUL! I must admit I am partial to symmetrical shields (i.e. as pick-guards), although of course they are functionally "inefficient", or rather superfluous on the G-side. Still, I find that sort of symmetry _aesthetically_ SO gorgeous! 

Thank you for posting this! (I should rather declare you, my friend, a Very Bad Person indeed, as this kind of posting only inflames the pathological condition known as MAS.  :Wink:  )

Cheers,

Victor

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

And here is a brand new Roman Mandoloncello (Orchestra Mod. No. 1) by Lorenzo Lippi. 
In every sence just wonderful!

Best greetings,

Alex.

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## vkioulaphides

WOW!  :Disbelief: 

Must be amazing... Thanks for posting this, Alex.

Cheers,

Victor

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## Jim Garber

Thanks for posting, Alex. Will you post some sound clips? I also like the painting. Is that one of yours?

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## Tavy

That's an amazing looking instrument, like Jim I'd love to hear some sound clips (and see some more images for that matter)!

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Victor, Jim and Tavy, 

It is indeed a very fine sounding and good looking instrument! If I have some time - perhaps this weekend already - make a video sound example for you all. Yes Jim, it's one made by me. And I am happy you like it! Thanks!

Best greetings,

Alex.

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

Just an up-date to you all about the instruments that I wrote about here in this thread in May 2009.

This moring I played the two soloist models again and listened really carefully to the sound and if that was what I expect from such high quality instruments as build by Maestro Lorenzo Lippi. 
And although I hear them being played by my students nearly every week, I am very happy to inform you that both of them, the Soloist Model No. 5 and the Soloist Model No. 5bis have developed so well over the past years. The lowest two string pairs have this real Embergher rich and sonore sound that rings on and on (just great!), the 2nd string pair is very much there in all positions as are the two chanterelles; clear and bright with an incredible long sustain, reacting immediately on with whatever stroke you touch them; be it with tenderness or with force. It is understood by the metal, wood and celluloid immediately. 

Really happy with how these instruments have developed into two fantastic Roman concert mandolins with each of them having a wonderful and most balanced sound! Congratulations to Mr. Lorenzo Lippi!

Well that was the quick 'up-date'


Best to you all,

Alex.

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## Eugene

Thanks for this word, Alex.  They are beautiful pieces.

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi all, 

Today Niels Godart, our mandoloncellist of Het CONSORT, and I had great fun playing on two Roman Mandoloncelli; a 2013 Lorenzo Lippi and a 1926 Luigi Embergher. A wonderful experience with to fantastic sounding instruments! 

And of course; three cheers for Lorenzo Lippi!

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## peterk

I wonder if signor Lippi offers any price discount to Mandolin Café members who might be interested in purchasing one of his mandolins ? :Grin: 

His concert mandolins #5 and #7 shown on the above pictures sure look spectacular.

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Peterk,

Of course Mr. Lippi does so! You can contact him directly with the info about him at the Mandolin Café's *Mandolin Builders* page.
Here is a direct link with the contact info:


http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/...view_records=1


Success and best regards,

Alex.

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## brunello97

Thanks, Alex.  That is a great photo.

Some serious _low end_.  Love to be a winter fly on the wall there with y'all.

Happy New Year, amigo!

Mick

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## Alex Timmerman

And to you, Mick, Happy New Year!

Best greetings, Alex.

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## ollaimh

brian dean from cape Breton makes an emberger replica/copy of note. they are expensive but not nearly as much as those from Italy.

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## Highstrings

I received my Brian Dean 'Roman' 5-bis model back in late November.  It's a great instrument and a delight to play.  Now that I've finished a few violin projects, I can now begin a serious relationship with her :-)

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## Beanzy

That is a superbely made E5-bis. 
Once you've had a chance to get properly acquainted with it I would love to hear how it sounds and what it's like to own something like that. I know we play these things for their sounds but we get more emotionally from them than just the sound. I do hope some future day to have one, until then I'm relying on living vicariously.

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## Jim Garber

Small mention about Sr. Lippi in this coming Sunday's *NY Times Magazine*.

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi all, 

Last Sunday, October 12th, Sebastiaan de Grebber and I visited the Dutch Luthier Hendrik van den Broek who just finished a new Embergher mod. no. 5bis Roman concert mandolin. 
And then it is always nice ánd interesting to look, play and listen to the new instrument. So that is what the three of us did all evening. And what a wonderful sounding concert mandolin it was! Really excellent in every way (sound-wise speaking absolutely "Embergher" like and already very 'open' with a big sound, excellent playability and great art work in its finishing). 

Congratulations Hendrik! Sebastiaan and I, we already look forward to the next Roman concert mandolin coming from your hands ! Here are some photos for you that I took of the new mandolin, its maker Hendrik van den Broek, and mandolinist Sebastiaan de Grebber playing it. 

Best greetings, 

Alex Timmerman.

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## Alex Timmerman

And here is the instrument

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## Alex Timmerman

And the instrument together with its maker Hendrik van den Broek. 

Best greetings to you all, 

Alex.

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## DavidKOS

Those are just beautiful mandolins!

I know this is heresy, but I'd rather have one of those than a Gibson F model.

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Alex Timmerman

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## Tavy

That's a work of art for sure - lovely!

----------

Alex Timmerman

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi all Embergher interested,

_(Not really a 'new' Roman instrument, but the reason why I post it here is that it could be the example to work from for luthiers who really like to come as close as possible to the Roman craftsmanship, sound and ideas of Luigi Embergher himself).

_Still excited about the sound and excellent playability I like to inform you about the following: recently the restoration of my 1905 Luigi Embergher concert mandola was finished by the Dutch Luthier/restorer Hendrik van den Broek who did a really excellent job. 

Once the mandola was back home and in my hands it turned out to be one of the most beautiful instruments that I know and play. An instrument with a very rich, sonore and warm sound. Ánd a sound also that - when required in the music - can be clear and penetrating so that it is heard! Simply fantastic! 

The interesting aspect of this mandola is that Luigi Embergher, working together at the time with Ginislao Paris (a mandolinist in St. Petersburough) placed a second soundboard designed by Mr. Paris inside the bowl. And of course it is difficult (it is just to early; I have to get used to it, to fully play and understand the instrument) to say whether this is a real improvement, but what I can say already that it is surely a wonderful instrument! 

The collaboration between Embergher and Paris was quite interesting and sofar we know that a Liuto cantabile, the mandola mentioned above, and two mandolins have survived. All instruments are of the highest models of the Mandolin family in the Luigi Embergher line.   


My best greetings,

Alex.

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Bob A, 

DavidKOS, 

Martin Jonas

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## Martin Jonas

Very interesting, Alex!  I haven't heard of Emberghers with a second soundboard before.  How is it located in the bowl -- similar to what Umberto Ceccherini did a few years before (i.e. a second soundboard about a centimetre below the main board, extending the full width) or more like a Virzi, located towards the centre of the sound chamber?

Martin

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DavidKOS

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Martin, 


Indeed they are very rare. As mentioned, only a handful are known yet. All of them were made for the Russian pre-Revolution market. 

The second soundboard is very, very thin and has a sound hole that is located more or less straight under the place where the bridge on the top soundboard is placed. 

Unlike the Ceccherini the Luigi Embergher second sound board is situated much deeper inside the sound box and the soundhole in this second top is also placed at a different place. 
Also, there are differences in the design of the second soundboard between the Embergher/Paris mandolin- and the mandola design. 
In the mandola the soundhole is placed more towards the middle and much more visible than the sound hole inside the mandolin. 

If time permits I'll make a photo the coming week. A photo often explains it better than words.


As for now; Merry Christmas to all,

Best greetings, Alex.

----------

brunello97, 

crisscross, 

DavidKOS, 

Martin Jonas

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## brunello97

Un regalo muy rico, for the Holiday, Alex.  Gracias, amigo.  I look forward to seeing (and hearing) more from this mandola.

Feliz Navidad, my friend.

Mick

----------

Alex Timmerman

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## crisscross

Frank-Peter Dietrich and Markus Dietrich also build an Embergher style mandolin.

http://www.gitarre-laute.de/mandoline_19.html

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Martin, Mick and all, 

As promised: a photo of the Luigi Embergher Mandola with its double top.


Best greetings, 

Alex.

----------

Martin Jonas, 

Tavy

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## Vangelis M.

Good evening, Alex, 

Thank you for sharing this information with us and for the photo!
Quite interesting to read that L. Embergher built intruments like those. 1905 is relatively early in his career, isn't it? 
Would you know the year of contruction of the other double-soundboard instruments? 
To your knowledge, did mr v.d.Broek find any sort of bracing on the inner board?





p.s.
Alex, would you have the time for me to ask your opinion on a few ideas on the roman features via email?
In short, I was thinking about the motion of the fingers/palm while playing across the fretboard: mainly driven by my short fingers, I want to try fretting a board with some inclination to see if playability would benefit. I intend to try both 'positive' and 'negative' inclination and even though I reason that any benefit would come from E being lower than G (opposite to the pic), I not a professional player and listening to one would be most valuable -especially a person of your depth of knowledge, also being a teacher.


p.s.2
Here is my own first attemp on a roman mandolin, based on an old bowl with a badly split top; bracing pattern and construction etc from mr Lippi's schematics and other photos. Not true to a specific Embergher series though (plus, the scroll pick guard could be quite less wide..)

----------

brunello97, 

Tavy

----------


## Vangelis M.

> The interesting aspect of this mandola is that Luigi Embergher, working together at the time with *Ginislao Paris* (a mandolinist in St. Petersburough) placed a second soundboard designed by Mr. Paris inside the bowl. And of course it is difficult (it is just to early; I have to get used to it, to fully play and understand the instrument) to say whether this is a real improvement, but what I can say already that it is surely a wonderful instrument! 
> 
> The collaboration between Embergher and Paris was quite interesting and sofar we know that a Liuto cantabile, the mandola mentioned above, and two mandolins have survived. All instruments are of the highest models of the Mandolin family in the Luigi Embergher line.


Ginislao Paris on wikipedia

There seems to be a few pics of the n.8 mandolin on the website http://russian-embergher.com/, along with an interesting pdf on the liuto cantabile.

----------

DavidKOS

----------

