# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  At long last, a confirmed blacktop A2Z?

## mrmando

I thought about buying this, but it's not a good time for me to acquire another project right now. I figured it would go pretty quick, and I was right. 

The myth of the "blacktop A2Z" has been much discussed. A handful of old blacktop Gibson snakeheads, including Andy Statman's beloved axe, possess some of the features of the A2Z model and have been informally called "blacktop A2Zs," despite a lack of hard evidence concerning whether a "Z" appears on the label of any of these mandolins. 

Number 82361, however, judging from the photographic evidence, does appear to have the remnant of a "Z" on the label, although if there was a "2" it's so faded that it doesn't show up in the photograph. The mandolin has the A2Z soundhole binding. I can't tell from the photos whether the top binding has the interior black strip (difficult to make out on a photo of a blacktop instrument) and there is no back binding, but that could be just because the back is off.

Lots of photos. This seller seems to specialize in mandolins requiring heavy TLC.

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

I saw it last night and thought it may be a good project, just not for me. The price seemed right, and the pictures were very descriptive. It's already sold when I went to check on it, so hopefully it's someone on the cafe and will port some pictures when they receive it, and restore it.

P.S. I actually am not familiar with the myth/legend surrounding black topped A2Z. I guess I'll have to dig through the old posts to read up on it tonight

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## mrmando

The term is frequently used to describe instruments that turn out not to have a "Z" on the label, or that don't have other characteristic A2Z features. That's what I mean by "myth." However, as Dan has pointed out, late snakeheads like this one often have features that don't match the model specs.

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## Mandolin Mick

I knew who started this thread before I even clicked on it!!!  :Laughing: 

Too bad you missed it at that price!  :Frown:

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## danb

*shrug*

Pretty hard to see if that's "the ghost of a Z" on the label, but even if it was, the spacing doesn't leave room for a "2" and a dash.. here are a couple examples. 

We've seen "A2-" which sometimes looks like "A2=" on the label (whoops, where's the missing Z!?).. but so far only on blonde finish mandolins. My take on it is this is yet another A model with muddled specs.. and even if it is or isn't labelled a Z or sharing a batch number with some Zs.. it probably sounds great!

One other little detail- the "2-Z" part of both examples attached are slightly in superscript to the "A".

I do agree the example from the ebay link does appear to have the right shaped "ghost of a Z" anyway  :Smile:

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## mrmando

Maybe it's the heretofore undocumented A-7? :Disbelief:

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## Paul Weber

No fingerboard binding. No back binding and no black purfling inside the top binding would indicate it's not a Style A2Z. The ghost 7 on the label could be a stain. Like Dan says it's probably an A model with muddled specs.

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## Jim Garber

I have Statmanesque blacktop A2 with bound fretboard and bound back. It is very difficult to tell whether there is any black purfling inside the top binding because (duh!) the top is black. There seems to be some difference in the finish in that area, but i can;t tell for sure. In any case, mine is closer in specs to an A2-Z than that eBay one.

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

Interesting.. looks like it's just been relisted here....

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## mrmando

Ha! Perhaps someone's reading this thread! It appears that it was relisted because the original buyer has reason to doubt that it's an A2Z.

Another look at the photos confirms that this never had back binding. Well, maybe that mystery holy grail is yet to be found after all.

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## danb

> Another look at the photos confirms that this never had back binding. Well, maybe that mystery holy grail is yet to be found after all.


I think the whole idea of a "Black A2-Z" is a simple misunderstanding. Folks have used "A2Z" in the murkier past as a synonym for "Snakehead".  Somewhere, way back when, the A2Z model got some associated mojo for being a really nice sounding mandolin. I've only ever had a chance to own/play one blonde A2-Z, and it *was* really nice.  I've also heard plenty of feedback from friends that they aren't all great. 

So.. from a seller's marketing perspective, I think that associating a blacktop snakehead with an A2-Z lives on as a way to increase the perceived mojo of a mandolin and raise the sale price. It's a way to increase interest in a snakehead that might have the bound soundhole, maybe the B/W binding, etc. What Makes it a "Z" is fairly clear in the catalogs, but for the astute.. you will probably be able to find a nice-sounding snakehead without the "Z" tax for $100s less! 

How many of them were labelled "A" and have seemingly random features? Loads of them. I'd even say *most* of the black finished ones!

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## Jim Garber

Prob someone already mentioned this, but it is quite likely that these black Gibsons were a means to cover factory mishaps. Mine, for instance, has a seam showing in the wide-band ivoroid rosette. there might have also been some irregularity in the top wood. It might have started out as blond A2-Z or not. Who knows?

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## jim simpson

I guess the black topped ones as well as the sunbursts made the four-piece tops less obvious.

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## danb

> I guess the black topped ones as well as the sunbursts made the four-piece tops less obvious.


I had a 7-piecer.. and I think Spruce told me of an Ajr with an 11-piece top! Mine was also an Ajr, and it sounded great

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## Darryl Wolfe

My problem with this entire discussion is that the mandolin in question does not remotely fit the description of an A2Z blacktop or blonde (fingerboard binding, back binding and pearl script)

The elusive "Blackface A2Z" question is based upon seeing mandolins that fit the description to a "Tee" but are blacktop.  To date...not a single one has ever been confirmed to be stamped A2Z, fitted with the same level of tuners and therefor sold as an A2Z level/priced instrument

As an ajunct, black topped snake mandolins of this period are indicative of bottom of the line "A's" that yes do hide less than perfect tops.  In mid to late '23, the company reorganized, barely avoided bankruptcy and reduced the number of models in the line up.  This coincided with the elimination of the A3, upgrade of the A2 from brown to the blonde A2z, and straight "A,s" becoming blacktop

So with that in mind, theoretically there are no snake A3's, A3 bodies were fitted with snake pegheads finished natural and called A2z's and later eliminated all together, A2's were painted black and sold as "A's" and there are no blacktop snake A2's of any kind....But...??

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## Jim Garber

Ah to be a fly on the Gibson wall back then... as we say a lot these days... what were they thinking?

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## Darryl Wolfe

This A3 confirms the lesser grade tops under the paint job and is essentially an A2Z paddlehead

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Gibson-A...item1c1c4615a2

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