# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  IRISH BOUZOUKI (OCTAVE MANDOLIN) Kits

## Kip Carter

I've done a bit of searching on the web and I'm not finding anyone that offers a quality IRISH BOUZOUKI (OCTAVE MANDOLIN) kit.  I'm not ready to go at one as my first building effort will be an A Style mandolin (shopping for that too but can find resources for that).

Anyone know of a good kit for an Octave Mandolin?  My thought is that as I hone my building skills on these projects that my first build (an A Mandolin) will hopefully provide a better grade instrument than my entry level mandolin I am learning to play on now.  Then I am looking to moving to an Octave only because from what I understand it uses the same tuning/fingering as the mandolin just with a longer neck with more frets.  There is a whole lot of noobie in that but that is my basic understanding.  

My end goal is that after these first two builds that I would have two usable instruments with not a lot of differences in how they are played but with different tonal qualities. Plus, a good deal of experience and understand of construction technique I will want moving forward to doing higher quality builds later.

As s precursor to the first build I'm doing some setups on inexpensive new mandolins for friends and family. Then I am planning to do some work restoring some older mandolins.  I love the bowlbacks and have the opportunity to put some TLC into a couple that will be my first challenges.

I welcome comment on my strategy and if anyone does have sourcing information for a Octave build that would be great!

Thanks muchly,
Kip...

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## Joe Mendel

http://donkawalek.com/pages/octave-kit.php

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## Kip Carter

Thanks Joe!  I was afraid I'd have to jump in deeper than my waders would handle.  That looks like what I'm looking for.  Bit more pricey than a similar mandolin kit but I would imagine that is because of the it being less popular with folks.  Put that down on my list of potentials.. thanks again!
Regards,
Kip...

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## Kip Carter

I found another kit available here at Music Makers, but I don't think it looks as nice as the other one.  
Regards,
Kip...

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## multidon

Don Kawlek runs an instrument making camp in Appomatox Virginia in early April. You get 5 days lodging, meals, one of his instrument kits, and he personally guides you through the building process. Cost is 850 dollars I think. You can build a mandolin, octave mandolin,  or banjo. Seems like a real bargain. I wish i could go. You would spend at least that much for a luthier made OM plus you get the experience and knowledge-priceless! See his Web site for details. NFI.

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## multidon

The Musicmakers kit has the neck and neck block as one unit, with notches cut in for the ribs. Not the best construction. You would never be able to do a neck reset.

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## Kip Carter

> Don Kawlek runs an instrument making camp in Appomatox Virginia in early April. You get 5 days lodging, meals, one of his instrument kits, and he personally guides you through the building process. Cost is 850 dollars I think. You can build a mandolin, octave mandolin,  or banjo. Seems like a real bargain. I wish i could go. You would spend at least that much for a luthier made OM plus you get the experience and knowledge-priceless! See his Web site for details. NFI.


Ironically I have already emailed him on my quest for kit information. I saw the camps and saw the kits and all and like you, I would never have time to go with my schedule. Interesting... So my thought that the Music Maker was a bit on the cheap we probably accurate.  I will mark that one off the list... Back to only one option, Don's.. Thanks
Kip...

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## Audio Artillery

Not to disrespect those who only do kit building, but I suspect after building one kit you'll probably be ready to dive in on a scratch build.  I did a scratch build and have never done kits builds.  You sound like you've got a brain in there, you should be fine with plans and maybe a book.  I found the scratch build to be very, very fun.

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## Kip Carter

> Not to disrespect those who only do kit building, but I suspect after building one kit you'll probably be ready to dive in on a scratch build.  I did a scratch build and have never done kits builds.  You sound like you've got a brain in there, you should be fine with plans and maybe a book.  I found the scratch build to be very, very fun.


No disrespect taken (at least from me). My only thought on the two kits was two fold and in light of my end goals in building, my thought was that the kits fit.

My intent is to build scratch so that I can use specific wood selections and add elements to the build that I might think are of benefit to me or someone else.  On the other hand I'm a new mandolin player and bought a very low end import to get me started.  Okay I'm started, confirmed and off and running, I love my little import beater and am suffering from MAS on Rogue budget (okay maybe not a Rogue budget but it's difficult to transpose beer budget to mandolins).  Sooooooo

The intent was to get an A kit build it and have a better quality daily instrument to play sooner rather than later.  Then, I thought of the versatility of the Octave and thought okay so how about a kit there too.  The concept was that with a kit I could turn out something some levels better than I play now (in both cases), have it sooner rather than later, and gain a lot of valuable knowledge in the kit build that could translate to a scratch build.

Now on further investigation and the input I've gotten so far from yall on this thread, My thinking is changing slightly.  Here is where I'm headed after the two restorations are complete (pending any adjustments based on new information from others more knowledgeable on the topic):
Buy and build an A (likely with an oval sound hole).Do my first Octave from scratch.Then perhaps go into an A with f holes.Then perhaps consider an F style.

The reason I'm beginning to consider a scratch build for the first Octave is that the kits seem to be pricey compared to mandolin kitting prices and I can put higher quality materials into the octave for the same money if I scratch build it.

Very helpful yall!
Kip...

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## Steph

Kip, talk to Don regarding the OM kit, I went to the camp last year, had a blast and came home with a pretty reasonable good sounding OM. It sounds like your woodworking skills are way beyond mine, I'm sure a chat with Don will provide more data for you to make your final decision. I enjoyed the camp so much I'd even consider going again to see if I could improve on the cosmetics/fit/finish although I'm not sure my liver could handle the load!.
Hopefully not hi-jacking the thread (too much) Multidon mentioned another kit where the neck and neck block are a single unit. I believe that's the construction on my other octave/cittern (Sobell) and from what I can see is also used by some of the other high end UK builders like Forster and Shippey - so maybe it's just different design/construction from the start - I know Don hates the idea!

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## Bill Snyder

Classical guitars use a integral neck/neck block design. It is called a Spanish heal and goes back a LONG time. Of course classical guitars done have the string tension that mandolin family instruments do.

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## epicentre

If one can buy good wood and good instruction material, and do a scratch build, that would be the way to go IMHO.

A lot of kits are very costly relative to the quality of the end product, and if things go south, one is oftentimes left with no assistance, which is why a lot of research pays off.

Best of luck Kip.

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## Audio Artillery

> Buy and build an A (likely with an oval sound hole).Do my first Octave from scratch.


This sounds like a good plan to me.  I'm considering doing an octave myself, but probably won't be till after summer.

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## multidon

> A lot of kits are very costly relative to the quality of the end product, and if things go south, one is oftentimes left with no assistance, which is why a lot of research pays off.


One should never build an instrument with the saving of money as the main goal. Often you won't save much. You do it for the joy of the accomplishment and to be able to play an instrument that is built exactly the way you want it. I would never advise someone to do a scratch build as their first building experience. With a kit you can have a lot of the hard work already done for you and benefit from the experience of those who have done it before. The OM kit that Kawalek sells for 460 dollars results in an instrument that is worth easily in the 1000 dollar range and even if you attend the camp for 850 your are ahead financially, along with all that study with a master luthier which is priceless. Even if you build the kit without the camp Kawalek offers great support and guarantees that he will support you and help you with any problems.




> Classical guitars use a integral neck/neck block design. It is called a Spanish heal and goes back a LONG time. Of course classical guitars done have the string tension that mandolin family instruments do.


This is true enough. I guess I am a bit prejudiced against this design because it is also associated with inexpensive fiddles the Germans cranked out as fast as they could in the early 20th century. It works fine until the neck angle needs to be reset, then you can't. I imagine that it does work well for classical guitars because of the low tension. I would worry about that design with the much higher tension of steel strings. Why don't you see any steel string guitars using that design? I understand there are well respected makers in Europe using that design. Maybe someone familiar with those makers will chime in and tell us how they deal with the problems. One thing in its favor, it does speed up and simplify the building process.

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## Kip Carter

Well the camp is out for me.  Simply not possible with the health issues in the home I can't be gone for any more time than absolutly necessary.  I would love to attend one as they seem like a blast, but it simply isn't going to happen.  So i'm down the the alternatives. Get the OM kit from them and build it... or build from plans.  I hear and value your input here I'm a little torn and perhaps more study will resolve those conflicts. 

Option 1 - the kit:
The kit can be bought with or without hardware.  I am not sure what hardware comes with it, but it is highly likely that I could upgrade the hardware from the kit if I got my own. Inversely the cost for that hardware in proportion is likely to be greater than simply getting the equivalent hardware that comes in the kit. The kit gives me a shorter path to follow with less opportunity for error simply by merit of the fact that some of the work is done for me.

Option 2 - Scratch build:
More difficult. More of an investment in time. Greater opportunity to introduce imperfections.  However, it has the opportunity to introduce upgraded materials (not saying I would want to) such as a different choice in wood for the top or back, etc.

I think I'm leaning towards a hybrid of the the two options.  I may use components in the kit to template other materials to swap out.  I"m thinking most of the top wood used. Again, I'm not convinced that even that would be necessary to satisfy my drive for my own touch to the resulting instrument. It's only something for me to consider.

Great input people.. thank you so much!
Kip...

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## otterly2k

I'll chime in with support for Don Kawalek's kit.  As mentioned above, he provides assistance as needed (and is a very good teacher as well), and the quality of the materials is quite good and well prepared.  If you wanted different woods for any reason, I think Don would probably be amenable and would just price a revised kit accordingly.  The hardware provided with the kit is probably low end (it was when I did mine) - you can always check with Don about that if you're not sure.  That said, it has held up fine and I have had absolutely zero problems with any of the  hardware.  You can always use the hardware that comes with the kit and upgrade them later if you want to... tuners, bridges and tailpieces are easy to swap out.

Too bad you can't do the workshop.  It's a great experience for a newbie builder.
KE

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## Rick Lindstrom

Well, no one said this, but I will.

Gather in Graham McDonald's two books (The mandolin Project and The Bouzouki Book) and give them a good read. You'll pretty much be ready to go provided you have some prerequisite wood butchering skills.

If you don't have some previous woodworking experience, a kit is the logical way to go. Then do a scratch build. LOL

Rick

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## Barry Wilson

I think I am sold on this kit idea. sounds like a lot of fun in the making. I would love to add an octave mandolin... hmmm

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## Kip Carter

> I think I am sold on this kit idea. sounds like a lot of fun in the making. I would love to add an octave mandolin... hmmm


Like minded soul... gotta love it!
Kip...

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## Joe Mendel

I'll second Graham's books. You may not follow the plans as written, but there is a lot of info to ruminate on there. He's getting set up to sell them as e-books: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...Bouzouki-eBook

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## Steph

I think it was Karen (Otterly) who mentioned about the hardware with Don's kit, I'd agree it's not "high end" but clearly meets the needs of the majority of folks who are trying this building adventure for the first time. I've always seen the goals of Don's camp to get everyone to the last day with a playable instrument in the white. So with the ultimate "fit" of the end result being somewhat unpredicatable it does not make a lot of sense to buy a set of Waverley tuners and a James tailpiece at the outset. They can be added later if the end result justifies it.
If you do upgrade the tailpiece get one that takes both loop and ball end stings - gives you the widest possible choice of strings. The other thing I'd add is side markers to fret board - I'm going to retro install them on mine.
Enjoy the process, as a couple of people have noted above and if you search previous stings on building kits you'll find a lot of positive comment for Don's support - as long as you can handle his sense of humor!

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## epicentre

@multidon:"One should never build an instrument with the saving of money as the main goal. Often you won't save much. You do it for the joy of the accomplishment and to be able to play an instrument that is built exactly the way you want it. I would never advise someone to do a scratch build as their first building experience. With a kit you can have a lot of the hard work already done for you and benefit from the experience of those who have done it before. The OM kit that Kawalek sells for 460 dollars results in an instrument that is worth easily in the 1000 dollar range and even if you attend the camp for 850 your are ahead financially, along with all that study with a master luthier which is priceless. Even if you build the kit without the camp Kawalek offers great support and guarantees that he will support you and help you with any problems.""


Au contraire, mon frere: One should do exactly as one wants as long as it hurts no one.   My suggestion of a scratch build was based on the cost of wood to build a FLAT TOP octave or mandolin, or whatever.   Carved top, you're in a different ball park.

   By following directions carefully, and taking one's time it's possible to build from scratch on the first try.   Of course I defer to your superior talent and knowledge, and do apologize for what could possibly be construed as an opinion.  Sorry.

I've built from kits (IV - very nice), and from scratch, but probably nothing compared to the wonderful items you have created.

And, although I do like the IV kits, and will probably build another few, as I have a market for them upon completion, I don't find it necessary to shill for anyone or anything, as some here are wont to do.

Carry on.

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## multidon

epicentre- My apologies if you took offense to my opinions on scratch building. I certainly meant no offense. To clarify: I myself have only built from kits and never anything from scratch. I know my limitations and do not have a complete wood shop so I need to have the wood butchering done for me. I am overwhelmed by scratch building. I am certainly no expert nor do I claim to be one. Far from it. I'm just a guy who has built a few kits. That's all. If I come off as more than that I sincerely apologize to everyone here for that. I do enjoy studying and reading about building instruments. One of my life goals is to go to one of the Kalawek workshops. I sure don't know of anyone doing anyhing else like that.

I didn't mean to try and tell anybody else what to do or how to feel. But people post questions looking for advice so I and others do our best based on our experiences. If someone wants to build an instrument ONLY to save money, with no other purpose in mind, I say go for it. But I think they might be disappointed. You don't save as much money as you think you will, especially if you build a kit and (again, in MY experience) you have to upgrade the hardware because what's in the kit is cheap to keep costs low. My other point is, if someone builds and that is the ONLY motivation, they are really missing out on best part- the knowledge and love of the instrument you gain from the intimate experience of forming it with your own hands. Personally, I just don't know how professional luthiers can sell them. That's why I could never be a professional. I would want to keep everything I made! :Smile:

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## Kip Carter

> I think it was Karen (Otterly) who mentioned about the hardware with Don's kit, I'd agree it's not "high end" but clearly meets the needs of the majority of folks who are trying this building adventure for the first time. I've always seen the goals of Don's camp to get everyone to the last day with a playable instrument in the white. So with the ultimate "fit" of the end result being somewhat unpredicatable it does not make a lot of sense to buy a set of Waverley tuners and a James tailpiece at the outset.


No... but StewMac tuners would in my mind make a lot of sense in the initial build along with better stings.  I've been corresponding with Don about the kits and at this point i'm fairly certain i'm going to go with his kit for my first OM build, but two things that I will likely swap out in the initial build are those.  The tuners because in my way of thinking every time you install and re-install tuners you weaken the head and if I know that I would like a bit better tuner like the ones from StewMac make a lot of sense.  The string swap is only because when it comes to strings in my mind there is no excuse if you have preference for other strings.  

As a result I don't see me asking Don to change any items from the kit inventory. Rather when I get the kit I will sit the components that I don't choose to use aside and use what I fell more comfortable with.

 The camp... well I would love to attend but that isn't going to happen as I mentioned earlier. But I also would not be willing to rush the finish of my mandolin  to completion in the brief period of time the camp is for.  I know it produces wonderful results given the circumstance under which the instruments are constructed (fairly fast from start to play). However, my first build will stay with me till my dying day and likely then be passed on to one of my kids, and hopefully then on to the following generation someday.  With that in mind, while I'm sure my building skills will improve in subsequent efforts later, I want the first build to be as absolutely best it can be. The finish is will likely spend a couple weeks alone on. I will do everything possible to have a final result that I can enjoy for some time and then when my kids and my kids kids pick it up as their own they will feel like this isn't just grandpa's instrument; it is a part of them, part of their family, and something they can cherish and not just a okay enough first try.

I really wouldn't be interested in turning out something in a week if it meant that after done I was constantly seeing where I could have done better if I had only take a little more time to to it better.  No doubt that the possibly exists that eventually I may be able to whip out a high quality instrument record times, but for now, I would much rather take my time and get it as right as I can the first time.

Kip...

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## multidon

Kip- I think that you made a good choice. I am tempted to do the same as you. I also would swap out the hardware. I see your point about taking your time. I also think doing your work with Don right there to guide you would be cool, but I see your logic as well. Good luck with it and please post pictures when you are done!

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## Kip Carter

Don --- I should add too that a major part of what is driving me towards going with Don's kit rather than attempting a scratch first build is that Don's kit comes with Don's support.  The camp has that support more closely at hand to be sure but I could buy something from StewMac and have likely a similar value but I see the ability to bounce ideas and problems off of Don as worth a great deal.

I hate being the noob...but bottom line is that you have to be the noob to become the craftsman there is no way around it. But having someone there that I can fire off a question; how be it stupid or not; is priceless to get past the noob jitters.
Have a great weekend y'all!
Kip...

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## Barry Wilson

yupper. I saved the link. have to pay off the credit card from last purchase then going to get one. not sure I'd be changing the tuners. if they work fine why bother? strings I keep extra sets on hand for every instrument I own and stock up so no worries. 

I build remote control models. I hate buying one that is factory built because they never build them right and I end up stripping them down. I am clueless when it comes to building an instrument though. so a kit to me sounds like a fun project. at worst it will look awesome sitting in my garage of instruments I have been collecting

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## Kip Carter

Hey Pipeous... 
The only reason I'm thinking about an initial swap of the tuner machines is that the Ping tuners are an unknown quantity to me.  The StewMac tuners I know are of good (maybe not great) quality and perform well for many people and while the Pings may be fine if I did choose to swap them later it means backing out screws and putting in others. Perhaps in the same holes perhaps slightly different holes.  Regardless weakening (perhaps ever so slightly) the head. So I'm just thinking that if I order the full kit with hardware. I can do the swap of the tuners and install the StewMac tuners at the onset then hold on to the pings for another project that might make sense. (for example: MY Ibenez tuners are crap!)

As far as strings go, I can be a bit of a snob with strings. I like what I like and I don't see the sense in settling for anything else.

So when you ordering yours??? LOL
Kip...

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## Barry Wilson

after end of the month bills. wednesday is payday and that will cover what I have spent recently (gotta love holidays and overtime rates). got a speeding ticket to pay as car insurance is due feb 3rd... so if I put it on the credit card around the 5th I won't see the bill until the following month... seems repairing my bumper on the car is getting pushed to march... hehe. 

problem is now that I've found I love mandolin, I don't play my guitars much anymore. and I want to take some online lessons with Rich Delgrosso, and maybe the Mike Marshall stuff after that.

I worked for a sales company in Calgary way back and the manager used to say your signature all the time

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## Kip Carter

Awesome.. then you can give me a few pointers from your experience... I have some resto projects (bowlbacks) that I want to complete before jumping in on the OM project..

The tag line... yeah... I believe it.. along with success is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration.
Regards,
Kip...

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## Barry Wilson

we'll see. I just sent an email off... I might be able to swing this right away. I wanted to see what options are available in the kit... oh boy

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## multidon

The kit costs 460 with hardware and 420 without. The tuners are pings. not sure about the tailpiece. If and when I do it I will probably order without hardware and go with Grovers and a cast tailpiece of some kind.

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## Luthier

Well I guess I should chime in here....  Back in 2000 I was approached to give my first workshop which was held at the 4H center in Front Royal, Va.  That was a long time ago.  My gosh I remember a class of 15+ and we were using cinder blocks for clamps...
It is 2012.  My kits have evolved so far.  I only do a short production run of about 15 OM kits in the summer time when I am off from school.  I have learned much.  The materials I use are all solid wood, air dried, quarter sawn and I will never skimp on them.  You know.  Better ingredients. Better kits.  Papa Dons.  The one thing I pride myself in besides the talent that the good lord has given me, is my craftsmanship that has been honed over the last 36 years and my teaching ability.  I will help anyone, anytime regardless whether they are building one of my kits or another one.  I have not been on here as regularly as I used to but I am still available if anyone needs any help at anytime.  I also thank all of you for your praise and accolades you have given me.
Don
BTW I scored a wonderful amount of Spalted Maple if anyone would need any.  I am still stock piling Black Walnut for when I retire in 8 years. One day I would love to just take a few folks at a time to teach them all I know about building.

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## Kip Carter

Don,
  I have yet to build one of your kits but if you've been reading the thread safe to say that myself and several others are impressed with your program and your kits.  If you ever have the mind to do a day camp in Birmingham let me know! LOL  In the mean time soon as I get my current project load out of the way, I plan on ordering my OM kit. 

 Have a great weekend!
Kip...

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## Luthier

I am here.  Yell when you need me.  I can't believe my 17" Grizzly band saw tires that I have ordered are on Back Order until late March!!!  Sheesh.  
Don

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## SGraham

I just ordered a set of plans from Don a couple of days ago. They haven't arrived yet, but Don sent me the entire set in a PDF format "to wet my whistle." I have to say they look great. There are 12 sheets of plans and a set of very detailed instructions with illustrations. Someone wanted to know about options the plans offer. Here are a couple:
1) You have a choice between two headblock shapes. One creates a 1/2" reverse curve between the bout and the headblock, while the other creates a 1/4" reverse curve. They are both clearly delineated on the plans so you get a good idea what each will look like.
2) You have a choice between a snakehead or a paddlehead style headstock.
There may be other choices, but that's all I've found after a cursory readthrough. I can't wait to get started!

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## Kip Carter

Keep us abreast of your progress Steve.  I can enjoy the effort vicariously though your labor!  :Smile: 
Kip...

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## Barry Wilson

Just about to click the send button on my paypal... getting the complete kit myself. Now what do I do with all this crap in my shop? guess the motorcycle has to go outside with the cover on. oh boy. 2 new mandolins in one month.... mind you how long it takes me to finish this one is another story... the journey begins. been a few years since I built a scale helicopter (flew it once and sold it)

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## Kip Carter

LOL  Go Barry go!! Yeah my bike needs a new home to make room for my growing passion for working on stringed instruments. <sigh> Anyone know of an inexpensive shed one can purchase that is secure enough to park a 800lb vibrator in?
Kip...

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## Kip Carter

Hey guys, either of you planning on electrifying your creations?  If so, are you looking at the K&K rig?

Don, if you're reading, do you have a recommendation here?
Regards,
Kip...

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## Barry Wilson

I have an electric mando, acoustic guitar, electric guitar and bass... and I find I like recording with a mic way better. don't know if I will use this on stage or not. we'll see. my newest mando coming isn't electric

well I paid for my kit. extra $30 for shipping to canada was cheap. Don had it all boxed up and ready before I even paid. we emailed back and forth a few times. sending me his phone and cel numbers in case. I am not too worried. one drummer I jam with is a cabinet maker so I can bug him. 

I like being able to use hand tools to finish this. working graveyards I am ambitious when people are asleep.

also just asked about the banjo kits. none listed but I see he has a banjo workshop... be cool. I just think of this as another hobby. I sold most of my 1/5 scale cars to buy my motorcycle last spring. I built, tinkered and then let most just sit on the shelf... never saw gas. I liked building them more than driving them but I always lost money selling them... I have lots of space on the walls here for instrument hooks and they look cool even if I don't play them that often, some anyway

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## Luthier

Let me do a little research for youon this.  I did retrofit  / modify a pickup for a guy that bought one of my mandolins and it worked rather well.  
Don

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## Barry Wilson

Thanks for shipping my kit out so fast Don. Our emails make me wish I lived down your way. I think we could have a beer and jam all day

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## Kip Carter

Don does kinda sorta live down my way... a bit closer to the Mason / Dixon line that us folks in Bama but its all cool.

Okay so West Virginia is a piece from Bham... but it is still the south.

Kip...

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## Luthier

FTI.  Now my tires for my 17" bandsaw are back ordered until late April!!  I am done with Grizzly.  
Don

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## otterly2k

don't be fooled, Kip, Don is transplanted from New Jersey!

re: hardware.  I ended up putting a cast tailpiece (one that takes loops and balls) on my OM, and I think that was a good decision.

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## Luthier

Exit 18....Y'all....
Don

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## kkmm

Kip - your strategy appears to be very similar to mine. I am currently about to finish an F-style kit (the easiest kit to assemble). The next step is to build a better kit (all solid woods), requiring more elaborate works. At mean while, I do setup on mandolins (my own and my friends who trust what I did to mine). Essentially, this strategy allows me to learn details along the way, but not all at once as that would overwhell a novice like me, and that also fits with the tools I have or plan to buy for the project.
I am only dreaming about building from scratch, this requires lot of fancy wood working tools and skills. Unless I am a good carpenter with these tools in place, I can't believe I will build a mando from scratch. This is just me , being very realistic about my abilities and limitations.
Oh, I forgot, I certainly could build a pocket-mandolin (only 4 strings and about 7 to 9 frets) from scratch. It won't sound as good as a real mandolin, but it's a fun project to do using simple tools and materials bought from Home Depot or Lowes.
Here is the link to this pocket-mandolin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9T9d2ECfJk

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## Barry Wilson

I just unpacked the kit from Don finally. I will take some pics shortly, dam camera battery was dead...

first impressions is there is a ton of information. lots of little helpful hint sheets from care, to truss rod and such. nicely laid out plans, pages and pages of stuff. if I have any trouble it won't be for lack of info or diagrams. I thought the front and back were going to be the same wood but they aren't... which is actually cool. the inlay around the soundhole is allready done. the bridge is a one piece that is allready shaped. fretboard is slotted.

I have one more night of work so I'll leave the stuff out on the table. started snowing again this morning so the shop is cold. then I have 4 days to start tinkering, well collecting a couple tools, glue and such to get started. patience is going to be tough.

I'll take some pics and post them when I wake up

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## Kip Carter

Go go go... go Barry go!  :Smile: 

Sounds like we done good!
Kip...

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## Barry Wilson

The booklet on finishing alone is 19 pages. been reading that one. I am going to do the headstock like my epiphone and I was looking at headstock inlays on ebay. they have actual inlays then stick on types. the stick on ones are so cheap.

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## Barry Wilson

I got the front mostly done and glued the braces on the back. Cutting the redwood top, roughing it in, was a challenge with the coping saw. the wood wanted to crack along the grains. I had to glue one small crack. The walnut back was no problem. I'll be gluing the sides on today. 

This is rather fun.

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## Kip Carter

Moving right alone then!
Kip...

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## Barry Wilson

I spent a fair amount at Home Depot yesterday. got some cool tools though. Stuff I wouldn't normally own. small finishing plane, chisels... the quick grip clamps were not cheap but sure makes life easy. and I got the coolest file. it is a 4 way file. each side has a rasp and cross cut file on half. one side is flat the other is curved, basically giving you 4 files. I've used that a lot so far

one word of caution sort of. look things over close as there are many different templates for the body. my front had been drawn out before I started and turns out it was not the "new" shape and I had to go back and redraw the front... that was after cutting the back one out of the paper and looking over I realized the shape was a tad off... I'll have to wing it a bit but that was the only real stumbling block so far.

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## Rob Grant

Kip wrote:
"I really wouldn't be interested in turning out something in a week if it meant that after done I was constantly seeing where I could have done better if I had only take a little more time to to it better."

It would be great if the first instrument one produced could rival good 'ol Lloyd, but that's rarely the case. With each instrument I build, I learn a bit more. With each new instrument I build I, hopefully, improve the final product. Life is a learning experience. I may seek some kind of initial perfection, but to count on it is an exercise in frustration and frustration can lead to a lot of "unfinished" projects around the old workshop.

Find a kit or build from scratch, what ever floats your boat. The main thing is do it! Have fun and get stuck into the cabrón! Don't expect perfection on the first go. If perfection is your primary goal on your first instrument you may never get around to finishing the project or even starting it in the first place.

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## Rob Grant

Don wrote:
"I can't believe my 17" Grizzly band saw tires that I have ordered are on Back Order until late March!!!"

FWIW: I couldn't get tyres for my "extinct" 1949 Atlas Kalamazoo bandsaw. I just cut strips from some old flexible rubber linoleum that was used for flooring in Brisbane commuter buses and glued it (rubber contact cement) to the wheels in place of the original perished tyres. That was ten years ago and they still work and look good! In fact, they are probably a vast improvement over the originals.<g>

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## Barry Wilson

I am at the wait for glue to dry point again. the sides are glue to the tail block and just glued the neck block. Next is aplying the kerfing. too much fun. I got tv to watch and jam with in the meantime

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## Barry Wilson

Got most of the kit done. body is together, back is trimmed. fretboard has inlays and frets. I am undecided on the binding as of yet. doing it by hand could be a real challenge..

I can only tinker a bit the next 4 days as I am back to work and I do long hours. shaping the neck I think is going to be the biggest challenge of the job so far. I'm allready planning my next one from scratch to correct the mistakes I have made along the way learning. it may not be perfect (far from it tbh) but the idea of playing something I built is making me giddy

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## Kip Carter

Barry,
 Dude you can't imagine how eager I am to see you at the finish line with that OM... Very happy for you.  Love the updates.
Kip...

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## Luthier

Sound like you are doing well.
Don

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## John Kelly

Barry, don't think of the neck as a big problem, but rather as a very enjoyable part of the process.  I have just come in from my workshop where I have been re-shaping an octave neck with spokeshave and files and it is a very soothing process.  I love just trying to get the profile right and the best tool for judging this is, in my opinion, the hand - it finds all the little anomalies in the neck before I do the final sanding.

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## Barry Wilson

Thanks guys. If I wasn't tired and in my uniform, I'd be sanding right now.

Here's a couple pics. I still have to sand stuff on the body but it's together. The headstock template is on the table but will be slightly different. That will make drilling the holes for the tuners easy though. Neck isn't bolted in just pushed in place. I have to line up bolt it in and glue the fetboard to the neck. instructions say to glue the fretboard but I kind of want to rough it in a bit before I do. there's a lot of wood there to cut with a coping saw LOL

second pic to compare size to the mandolin

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## SGraham

It's looking great, Barry! Please keep posting your progress; I'm getting inspired watching you build. I've been building dulcimers for a long time, but I'm new at instruments with necks. So here's some advice from one newbie to another. I recently finished a tenor guitar, and a tool I found helpful for shaping the neck heel was an old spokeshave with a curved sole. You can pick these up really cheap on auction sites. I was surprised at how fast I was able to shape the heel and the wrist, both places where a flat-soled cutting tool would be hard to use. I don't think it took me over a half hour, and I'm not a very fast worker. After finishing with the spokeshave, it was surprisingly simple to clean up the curves with a file. Just make sure your blade is nice and sharp.

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## Kip Carter

Click click!  Another one!  :Smile: 

Yeah I am enjoying the vicarious build myself.   Trying to sell off stuff so I can order my OM kit too!
Kip...

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## Barry Wilson

Had to google a spokeshave. I've seen those before. might have to go visit the home depot tool rental. they call it rental but you basically leave a deposit and borrow the tool. thanks for the advice.

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## Kip Carter

Ignore this post ... asked a question that was answered back a few posts.. read on!
Kip...

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## Steph

Here's the one I did at Don's camp last year, the shot on the right was with flash.
I'm pretty pleased with the way it turned out, plays well and sounds good. One day I'll do a build from scratch but the learnings from building the kit are invaluable.
I think you guys will be pleased with yours.

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## Bill Snyder

I have never been in a Home Depot that carried tools like spoke shaves. The only planes I have found there have been Buck Bros. which by the many accounts I have read on some tool forums are all but unusable.

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## Kip Carter

Wood Crafter has them to be sure... I"m not sure about Lowes and Home Depot around here.. I would have to look, but something I should prob invest in maybe.
Kip...

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## SGraham

You can find an old Stanley or Miller's Falls or something like that on Ebay for a few dollars--literally. Mine's an old Stanley No. 63. In the image you can see the curved sole. Kunz and others make them new, but I'd pick up an oldie--they fit in the hand better.

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## Kip Carter

Talking about these got me watching a few videos that seemed informative. The first one below uses a clamp that is refered to as the 'Shaving Pony' which the guy in the video clams has plans on the web but I could find them. I did find some photos that show it better but looks like a really neat. If anyone has the plans I'd love to have the url to download them but here are the pictures I found of the Shaving Pony being used for neck carving.
First Video...



Another video with a little different technique can be found Here...


I'll keep looking for the plans for that shaving pony.. dog gone it...
Kip...

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## Barry Wilson

http://www.greenwoodworking.com/ShavingHorsePlans

cool idea. liking those draw knives.

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## Barry Wilson

> Here's the one I did at Don's camp last year, the shot on the right was with flash.
> I'm pretty pleased with the way it turned out, plays well and sounds good. One day I'll do a build from scratch but the learnings from building the kit are invaluable.
> I think you guys will be pleased with yours.


so how'd you do your binding. dam that looks killer

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## SGraham

Well my wood arrived today from LMI: Adirondack Red Spruce top and Claro walnut sides and back. The spruce is really wide-grained; it was their student grade, the cheapest. Still, I like how it looks. The walnut, for that matter, looks good enough to eat. I'm going to use some hard maple from an upright piano back brace for the neck. I've got a flooring project to finish before I start, but I'm really looking forward to getting started.

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## Kip Carter

Steve,
 Sounds like your timing is about perfect! Barry will be done with his here shortly and you should be starting yours!  With any luck I can start mine after you finish up... does this make us a bunch of OMers?
Kip....

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## Steph

Barry, the binding is much easier if you have 4 hands. At the camp we teamed up to do this, glueing and taping a few inches at a time. It was pretty messy work and there was a lot of cleanup sanding afterwards to get rid of the excess glue but the end result was satisfying. I'm sure don can you a better description of how to do it but it was - put down 3-4 inches of glue in the channel and between the binding strips, one person held them in position whilst the other got some masking tape on to keep it there. We simply moved round the back and top doing this, let it dry, removed the tape and sanded of the excess glue, adding little blobs of fresh glue into any gaps so they filled with fresh wood dust - it really worked amazingly well.

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## Barry Wilson

thanks for the sawdust trick. I am going to go for it. it just looks so much better. last night working tonight then 4 days off to work on finishing this thing up. I should have it ready for putting a finish on it before going back to work.

I can grab someone to tape while I hold. I watched a couple youtube vids about doing it.

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## Mo Soar

> I'll keep looking for the plans for that shaving pony.. dog gone it...
> Kip...


I think this is going to be as close as you are going to get. By "measured plans," note that they are holding 6" rulers in the photo...

http://www.frontiernet.net/~dmatt/shavepony/

I used the Wayback archive to go back and look at the other author's web site from around 2002, and the photos are the same.

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## Luthier

Yep.  Gluing the wood binding is a challenge.  Always.  I do it alone but I have my tape all cut to length and ready to grab and put on.
Don

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## Rob Grant

I don't use plastic binding, but rather timber (ebony). I glue my timber bindings with CA. I pre-bend the binding on the hot pipe. I then hold with my fingers or tape the binding tightly in the the ledge or channel. I then "wick" CA between the ledge and binding. With a fast setting CA (I use Loctite 406), I can actually work right around the instrument... press, hold, wick. Cleanup involves scraping back or sanding off the excess glue and any irregularities in the binding. With black ebony, I don't find it necessary to fill gaps, the CA does that nicely. I've never had a binding failure as far as adhesion goes. I don't know if this would work with the traditional plastic binding material. When using my fingers as a temp clamp I often leave a bit of skin behind if I'm not careful!<g>

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## Kip Carter

There is no means of releasing that once on... correct?

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## Rob Grant

Kip wrote:
"There is no means of releasing that once on... correct?"

You are referring to using CA for timber binding? If so, the answer is that the binding would have to be removed by the same means that you used to cut the ledge. Then again, why would one want to make the binding easily removeable? I suppose if sometime in the future you wanted to repair an internal problem or fault, it would be a bit like removing the tab on one of those old tins of sardines.<g> CA can be released with heat, but I'd probably opt to just mill it off and make new binding.

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## Kip Carter

Just wondered, but you make a good argument in that if a repair required going in one could simply replace the binding with new and that very well could be less of an issue than attempting to preserve what was there.  I didn't know you could heat release CA but to your point why would one bother?  Thanks... gave me something to consider and the instant adhesion of CA sure would make putting it in place much easier (which means replacing it too).
Kip...

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## Rob Grant

Kip, 
CA is wonderful stuff. I'd hate to have to do what I do without having it available in my stable of adhesives.

I say it "heat releases" because I use it to help secure my frets ("insurance"). CA sets as a plastic and most plastics will melt with heat. When I pull frets I always heat them first with a soldering iron or a narrow copper heat transfer plate and a clothes iron. Heat melts the CA bond and allows the fret to be pulled with out "tearing out" the fret slot. In fact, the CA that soaks into the end grain of the slot seems to slightly reinforce the slot. 

You can also use CA as a pore, insect hole filler and to harden a weak or faulty patch in a timber surface. 

We have several nice, dense black Ebony species growing within 200 klms of my workshop. The local Diospyros (Ebony) tends to crack and carry on like the "proverbial pork chop" when you mill and season it. Wicking CA into the cracks does wonders for the amount of useable material I can get from a single flitch. I also use CA for bridge/saddle laminations, point installation on F style mandos and quick repairs to damaged binding, points, headstock veneers, etc. Great adhesive... you can just about do anything with the stuff but drink it!<G> If 'ol Antonio had had CA available back in the 1600s, I'm sure even he'd have made use of it.<g>

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## Barry Wilson

Hell ya. Use ca on the edges of carbon fibre too after making a part. 

I'll get a couple pics up. I got the neck shaped in today, headstock and the top and bottom smothed out along the edges. Fretboard is on right now and clamped. When it's dry I can sand the neck to finish that. I did most of the neck with the small plane, rasp file and a sanding block. only down to 80 grit so far so lots of sanding to go. I have to go buy a new drill tomorrow to drill the holes for the tuners... tomorrow I start cutting for the binding. too late for the dremel now.

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## Luthier

Looking good, Barry.
Don

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## Barry Wilson

Thanks Don. Only issue I have had is the size of the head on the neck wasn't long enough to fit the template on and my tuners extend a bit. I am going to cut the scallop part off with a wheel and just round it.

I got the binding mounted on one side. all my cutting type bits are chewed from cutting metal. I used the drum sander and ran out of sleeves. still have the micro ones. dam things kept catching on slivers on the edge and tearing. I got about half done the other side before I ran out. I didn't do the purfling. The sawdust and glue trick is brilliant. the top side is mostly done and just needs a sand (it's in the house to dry a bit. 

side note, a friend came over that isn't a musician. we race rc cars together. I handed him a mandolin and showed him some chords and a couple things. I jammed along with my mando or a harmonica. he picks up quick. after a while I showed him some basic trilly crap he could toss in. fun. looks like we have another joining the ranks.

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## otterly2k

When I did mine, I found shaping the neck to be the most fun part of the process -- it's where my sense of the instrument as a player became most useful... At the workshop, we used rotary rasps (hooked up to the drill press) for most of that process, although if I was doing it now, I might use that for hogging out and use something a little more sensitive (and less dusty) for the final shaping.  

What did you end up using, Barry?

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## Barry Wilson

I bought a cool hand file. it basically has 4 surfaces. each side is halfed with a rasp and a cross cut file. one side is flat the other is half round. I did most of the shaping by hand with the rasp then bloack sanded with 80 grit. I should be getting some clear coat on it tonight. I went out and bought a drill yesterday as mine had died

I also grabbed me a mandolin chord chart. I've taught myself mandolin and many chords I played the guitar and found a chord by comparing. my Am for example doesn't appear on this chart lol. so while stuff glued I was experimenting with all these "new" chords

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## Steph

I agree with Karen on the neck shaping, on the one hand it really is a piece of customization that you as a player are free within certain bounds to express your preferences, on the other hand those drum sanders on the walnut neck at scary fast, easy to make mistakes which can be tricky to recover from - I like the "something more sensitive" idea, especially when you are that close to the end and can get a bit carried away.

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## Barry Wilson

Well I got the binding done, sanding down to 120 and sprayed my first clear coat. I'll get a couple few coats on the sand with finer paper. Tired now from sanding.

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## Kip Carter

Very nice Barry!
Kip...

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## SGraham

The binding looks nice and clean, as does the sound hole rosette. You're making really good time on this build.

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## Barry Wilson

Done for the night. Got the finish done... still needs a wetsand tomorrow. bridge is done, after I drilled and mounted the truss cover and tuners, my hands were done. it's not really as red as the first pic. I brightened the pic a tad to show the tailpiece. I'll get a better pic in daylight after I get strings on.

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## Luthier

Did you know I make the truss rod covers too....????  Looking really nice!!!

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## Barry Wilson

Took it with me to work last night and tossed strings on. I got the nut pretty close to what it needed but the bridge was too high. and the template in the instructions had the strings too wide... I played it for a while as is and stayed around the open position. dear god these things are rich and deep. made me want to play gallows pole.

since it was too tall I cut different slots to get it closer to width and marked it then took a file to it. for height I wanted to come home and get a sanding block so it stayed straight... and I have better light than sitting in my car at night... I worked for quite a while and neglected to start the car watching tv... dam near had to push my car across the lot for a bomb start haha

it's a different beast to play. I just learned a bunch of mandolin chords I doubt I'll ever be able to reach on this thing. F is near impossible to reach

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## Kip Carter

Barry,
 Wanta hear!!!!  :Smile:  

 I had someone that mentioned the same thing and indicated that playing the OM almost required a capo for some chords.  Sounds like your experience may be proving that out already.  Sure you cant' stretch those fingers a wee bit more?

Kip...

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## Barry Wilson

I'll try and get a recording. I have to sand the bridge before I put back together. just about sleep time for me. these long nights are killing me. I really don't feel too bad my position is ending month end. so sick of sitting in my car... too boring. for a few months sitting in the car playing was fun... if I wake up early enough I'll sand the bridge but more likely I will take it with me and finish at work. 

I was asked if I'd be interested in playing bass for some artist doing a tour in Dubai. I said sure. So before I commit to more work I am looking into it. be under 2 months from what I understand.

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## Barry Wilson

I haven't touched the truss rod but I got the bridge re slotted and lowered it. having a slight issue. if I put the bridge so I get good intonation then open chords are out of tune. to set the bridge so chords are in tune I have to be flat at the 12th. I also tossed a round toothpick in front of the nut like a zero fret to see what that did... I just got off work and near brain dead so I'll just slide the bridge so I can have it in tune for about 8 frets hehe. nut is qute low but no fret buzz. it's actually very easy on the fingers other than the stretches.


different to play but am so loving the sound. it's so deep and rich. the girls really like the sound too. I'll check back later to figure out what's up. I just want to play.

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## Barry Wilson

Been awake 22 hrs so don't expect a lot lol

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## Luthier

Awesome!!!!!  
Don

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## Kip Carter

Like that!
Way to go Barry!
Kip...

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## Steph

Nicely done Barry, I'm interested, as I did mine at a camp where I could devote all day uninterrupted to the task - how long elapsed time do you think it took you start to finish.

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## Barry Wilson

I spread things out over 5 days. that included trips to the hardware store, waiting for crap to dry. I tried to give the glue extra dry time. If I screwed up I couldn't just get another piece. and I did almost everything with hand tools... mostly a rasp file. don't like redwood. I made everyone in the house sneeze when sanding that. Almost wish the whole thing was walnut. I love that wood.

it's done other than tweaking the setup. I'm no luthier by any means. I haven't tackled a wood project since high school. I enjoyed and the little glitches are easy to figure out with just some trial fitting stuff before committing.

I am loving this thing. just picked it up again but my hands are sore. pinky sure gets a big workout playing this thing

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## Barry Wilson

forgot... thanks everyone for the kind words and helpful advice along the way. I admit I was a bit anxious at first

Hey Don... please oh please a mandocello kit.

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## Luthier

..........no rest for the weary, huh?
Don

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## Barry Wilson

ok. I feel really stupid. I worked on my beast tonight. started measuring this and that. finally just pushed the bridge and played until my fingers were tired. I was watching a show and made a finger sleeve from a rubber glove. poor pinky has a knuckle busted on end many times and it's lumpy and crooked. gets sore. cut the tip out and slid about a half inch sleeve around the knuckle. I can play more now. works..

anyway. I am looking at the frets and fretboard, try to do a 12th fret harmonic. nope. what? i can do it at the 13th fret? are my frets not spaced right?... hmmm something is off. oh dam. 

I misplaced 10th and 12th fret markers! yup 9 and 11. no wonder. so for now I black felted those 3 dots out. my guess for what sounded good in open was actually close. so I filed more on the bridge while at it to set the compensation. now that it's setup I found a high fret at 14. 

people notice I buy a right handed mandolin with a left handed bridge, but missed that I screwed up my fret markers ( or wanted to be kind and spare me embarrassment.... no worries, I'll laugh with you lol)

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## Kip Carter

Barry,
 Not going to laugh at you... just glad you found the issue!   It gets very frustrating when you are too close to a problem you can't see it.  Your actions last night gave you the chance to stand back a few steps and there it was.  There isn't a person on here that honestly can say they haven't experienced similar moments when the obvious is staring them down and they just can't see it.

Awesome!!
Kip...

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## Barry Wilson

I painted some dots on with door and trim paint for now. it plays awesome all over the fretboard. I was jamming all night. and my pinky feels good. should have thought of the knuckle sleeve long ago.

my family and I laughed pretty good. my dear mother is enjoying it because I am anal retentive about details.

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## upnet

Never built a musical instrument...but have used CA to build RC model airplanes. I always keep a bottle of CA De-bonder handy... open and ready...in case I were to glue a finger or two to a servo tray, or aileron etc. Or that one time I had some Medium CA on my finger...and wiped my lip....... :Grin:

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## Barry Wilson

I am an avid rc modellor for over 20 yrs. I just sold a 5th scale race truck (on road euro race semi). All my tools and cutting stuff is for carbon fibre and aluminum. this woodworking stuff is fun. 

and I hate CA glue. Gluing tires is my most hated chore. took me a weekend to glue a set of 5th scale f1 tires and my hands were sore for days. I buy pre glued now. an extra 20 bucks a pair is cheap. I'd pay 3 times that LOL. and almost always a fingertip will get glued. oh and I flew helis too. built a scale augusta 109 gasser of a swiss rega rescue chopper. body was fibreglass. wood is much nicer smelling...

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## Mo Soar

Looking for a short scale OM kit (21" give or take) - I can only find long scale. The person who would be building the kit (ie: not me) is a more-than-competant woodworker and machinist with a whole lotta tools.....

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## jlatorre

> I am loving this thing. just picked it up again but my hands are sore. pinky sure gets a big workout playing this thing


I think you did an excellent job. Your OM sounds just like the one I made from one of Don's kits back in 2007. It's become one of my favorite instruments. In fact, I brought it to one of my neighborhood jams last week and rediscovered its great sound (I'd been neglecting it in favor of other mandos I've made). 

Time to start posting pictures of my various projects again...

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## Barry Wilson

Thank you. I just finished jamming a couple minutes ago. I've learned many of my fav acoustic guitar songs on this thing. my buddy thinks I should go busking with it hehe. I'm playing it a lot. I think Tom plays my acoustic guitar more than I do. he even jammed on my electric tonight. something he'd written. I added OM and mando to it. 

I just checked you have 2 of these kits? dam. I want to build another soon. The fun ended too soon for this one but playing it is just so cool. holding the dam thing is kind of one dimensional though isn't it? I want to add strap buttons.

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