# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Likely Orville Gibson made mandolin

## TR Crandall Guitars

Here is an interesting mandolin that came into our shop for repair.   



Overall length 26 1/2", lower bout width 9 7/8", depth of sides 1 3/4", body length 14 7/8". Scale length 13 5/8", nut width 1 1/8", string spacing at bridge 1 11/16".  No original internal braces (three were added somewhat recently to try and stabilize the top).  The neck and neck block are carved from one piece.  The carve of the back and top are very deep and bulbous.  

Back is walnut, top fir or pine, sides sycamore, neck hemlock.  The finish, inlay, tuners, and tailpiece are all consistent with Orville Gibson made instruments.

There are more pictures on our facebook page HERE

We have never seen another quite like it.  We received a few request to post it here.  Hope you enjoy!

-Alex

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houseworker, 

Jacqke, 

Michael Weaver

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## journeybear

You should definitely contact Dan at the Mandolin Archive about this. I think this would pre-date anything else on display there. I'm curious - what repairs does it need? I must say, it looks to be in very good shape, from this distance.  :Wink:

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## ColdBeerGoCubs

So does this one get excused from the ugliest scroll thread based on provenance alone?

Regardless, that thing is flat out cool.

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## darrylicshon

I like the look

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## barney 59

Anyone seen that tailpiece on another Gibson?  The headstock design and the lack of any attempt at a scroll is unique otherwise it is really similar in construction to a 1902 F model that I have seen which might mean that Orville didn't personally make it. Orville's early prototypes were usually highly decorated with butterfly inlays and such and the crescents were usually much larger -this one is really subdued for Orville.

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## TR Crandall Guitars

This repair it needs is a three inch top crack caused by dryness this winter.  Other wise it is in nice shape.

The tailpiece matches those found on the lyre mandolins that adorned the Orville Gibson labels. http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/uploads/lyre-large.jpg

It is an intriguing instrument and likely one of a kind.

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## Ken Waltham

I don't think that mandolin has ever been in Kalamazoo..... except maybe the Handel tuners.

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## Graham McDonald

A couple of things that should be thought about is whether the neck has been hollowed out and if the sides have been cut out of a solid block of timber. These were two aspects of building that were distinctively Orville. Another factor is the shorter 13 5/8 scale, as Orville was quite committed to the longer scale and even experimented with a longer 15" scale, but the e strings kept breaking.
One other possibility is the English Windsor company. They made a similar lump scroll f style instrument around 1910-12. 

cheers

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## barney 59

The origin of the "Lump Scroll"---WoW! so there was a historical context to the lump scroll of the 1970's  --I'll bet no one,not even at Gibson (or maybe particularly at Gibson) knew that! Could this be a prototype of an early attempt to accomplish what the 70's lump was trying to do by the new purchasers of Orville's name?-- to create a less labor intensive and therefore less expensive instrument? Is this lump completely(or at least mostly) hollow?  Orville's hollow neck didn't pan out and the scroll as it ended up being built didn't really add much volume and from articles I've read Orville was experimenting with increased volume. This is a cool historical piece and I'd love to hear from someone like Roger Siminoff for his perspective on this one! 
 I don't know anything about the Windsor but everything about the body of this one, with exception of the lump is exactly like a Gibson from their early manufacturing period '02-'04. I also wondered about the rib construction, bent or carved?---- Orville Gibson's 1898 patent was for carved.

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## RBMB

What year did OG stop participating in the building of mandolins?

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## goaty76

I'm on the fence with this one.  Really 50/50 from the pics I see. The build style and design are very OG but a few things, such ad the volute and neck heel, are slightly off from the other known instruments. It's possible it's an experiment from OG either pre or post dating his known body of work. Or there is possibility it was made by someone impressed with his original designs. Imitation is highest form of flattery.

Phil

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## Michael Weaver

Definitely looks 100% legit to me but I'm no expert. I freaking love it. You definitely have a piece of awesome history there. And yes the tailpiece and headstock match other early Gibsons.

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## journeybear

I'm thinking this is transitional. I wish I could find pictures of the earliest one I've seen (before this) which I think was 1895. This could fit into the timeline at a point where he was still standardizing his design. The lyre tailpiece looks right. Sycamore and hemlock - wow!  :Disbelief:  Yes, I'm giving this a pass on the lump scroll. In fact, I believe that is the most beautiful lump scroll I have ever seen.  :Wink:

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stevedenver

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## mrmando

I think it's a knockoff by a violin maker. No top bracing? Did Orville make any instruments with no top bracing? 

I've seen other old mandolins with violin-style C-bouts like this ... I may be able to find a photo.

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## goaty76

I don't believe any of Orville's instruments had bracing. I thought that was a key part of his design. 

Phil

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## Jim Garber

> One other possibility is the English Windsor company. They made a similar lump scroll f style instrument around 1910-12.


Here is an ad from 1914 and poor photo of a Windsor Pyxe. Similar but not exactly to the OP's.

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Timbofood

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## Jim Garber

Lots of pics of early Gibsons: *The Orville Gibson Guitar and Mandolin* -- tho nothing that resembles the OP's.

FWIW that tailpiece is pictured in my 1901 Tonk Brothers catalog and I have seen them on other brands as well.

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## Timbofood

Just doesn't look "Orvillian" to me. Fingerboard end not as "fluid" as Orville's hand would have made. Graham may be on to something, still pretty darned cool!

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## Michael Weaver

I think the Windsor is quite a bit different. Also note the Handels. Who else was putting Handels on their mandolins at that time? As long as they are original that is.

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## Timbofood

Star and crescent are....different.
Not saying it's not but, not certain it is either. I hold that it's still pretty darned cool!
This could be pretty interesting when the research starts flowing in.

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## Jim Garber

> I think the Windsor is quite a bit different. Also note the Handels. Who else was putting Handels on their mandolins at that time? As long as they are original that is.


Agreed about the Windsor. Joseph Bohmann, Larson Brothers and CF Martin also used Handel tuners on various instruments. Here is a Larson-made Stahl bowlback and a Bohmann.

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Michael Weaver

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## Michael Weaver

Hmmm....you're making me waiver a little Jim but I'm holding out. I have high hopes. I went back and looked through the pictures I have and the crescent is smaller than others but that doesn't mean much if this is a prototype. Also I can't find any pics with a body that drastic. I would love to see of the inside of it.

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## Jim Garber

Just because other makers used Handels doesn't mean that OHG didn't build it. I was just responding to your question and establishing that Gibson did not have exclusive access to these tuners.

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## Michael Weaver

> Just because other makers used Handels doesn't mean that OHG didn't build it. I was just responding to your question and establishing that Gibson did not have exclusive access to these tuners.


No I know what you were saying. I just wish I could find a picture close. Watch there be a label on the inside.....

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## journeybear

I hope everyone's looking at the OP's facebook page. Many more photos there.

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Michael Weaver

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## Michael Weaver

I just did. Holy cow! The inside of the case is pretty cool (D.L. Spero Mens Outfitters). Hopefully the OP will post them on here.

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## Jim Garber

Here's a few choice ones for the thread... I love that bridge. From the ones I have seen, I don't think he repeated any designs from one mandolin to the other. They are like interesting sculptures.

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## Michael Weaver

I really like the bridge too.

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## danb

I think what we are seeing here is a well-executed copy by another maker. The details that Orville used are pretty consistently seen accross his instruments. In some ways, this is a simplification of the more complicated Orville design.

It's a really cool instrument !

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houseworker, 

Timbofood

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## Ken Waltham

I stand by my statement. That one has never been in Kalamazoo. Nothing about it says Gibson to me. A violin maker, perhaps, but more likely one of the early instrument companies as mentioned above.

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## mrmando

Here's a thread on Stahl "violin-style" mando-family instruments, which share some superficial characteristics with the present example: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...lin%27-mandola

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## mrmando

And here's a Brandt mandola with C-bouts, courtesy of Gregg Miner:

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## Michael Weaver

Not really seeing much similarities between the Stahl or Brandt. Here is a question to think about. If someone went to the trouble to replicate the tailpiece, the crescent, the bridge, the neck heel to me looks like Gibson and install Handel tuners why would they carve a violin body shape we haven't seen used in previous Gibsons? It would have been more simple to stick with the known body shape.

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## mrmando

Only one of Orville's F-style mandolins is known to have Handel tuners, and I'm not entirely sure they are original to that instrument. Orville was known to be partial to friction tuners on most of the F-styles he built. 

The one with Handels is dated 1900, which was toward the end of Orville's solo-building career. His F-style design was well worked out by that time. And, as has been noted, his mandolins tended to be ornate, and his later ones tended to be more ornate than earlier ones.

To make any sense at all of the idea that the instrument presently under discussion was built by Orville, I think we'd have to suppose that it was built at the very beginning of his career, before he'd completely worked out the F model. And the presence of Handel tuners argues sharply against that supposition.

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## MikeEdgerton

> The origin of the "Lump Scroll"---WoW! so there was a historical context to the lump scroll of the 1970's  --I'll bet no one,not even at Gibson (or maybe particularly at Gibson) knew that! Could this be a prototype of an early attempt to accomplish what the 70's lump was trying to do by the new purchasers of Orville's name?..


The first lump scroll Gibson (other than perhaps this one) was in the 30's on a Gibson second line mandolin.

If this was a Gibson built instrument it might be one of the elusive body styles with a letter from B to E. That would at least explain the A and F style designation. The Lyre shaped body would probably be in there as well.

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## danb

Well I think this is attributable to roughly the 1900-1912 time period- but still I think we are looking at a copycat luthier of some nature. The tuners aren't a reliable dating device, they are quite easily replaced. The tuner plate style *does* look like the older ones to me, with more elaborate decoration stamped into them  than seen in the later ones.

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## mrmando

> The tuners aren't a reliable dating device, they are quite easily replaced.


Perhaps, but when the OP argues that the tuners are "consistent with Orville Gibson made instruments," it behooves us to judge that claim in light of the evidence. The OP makes the same claim about the tailpiece ... but in point of fact, that lyre tailpiece appears on precisely zero of the Orville mandolins one can find in a Google image search. The star and crescent on the headstock is the only real point of similarity, and even it isn't quite the same as any that Orville produced.

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## danb

I think the main departure from Orville pieces here is the carving. Orville used thicker plates, and even his simplest works have very elaborate furniture-like carving. The backs are very deep and sculpted on his, and the huge thick pieces of wood used are much more dramatic.

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## MikeEdgerton

The tailpiece and tuners were obviously off the shelf products available to anyone so any proof would be in the mandolin itself. By the way, this looks strangely familiar.

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Timbofood

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## Timbofood

Fingerboard doesn't look like Orville's style too much to me. Maybe his,cousin, Artemus Gobson did it?
"Say, cousin Orville, I need a set of tuning machines for this thing, got a spare set?"

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## MikeEdgerton

On Siminoff's Orville page there are three early Orville built instruments. When you look at those vs the one in the OP there are some things that just aren't right if indeed it was built early. 

http://siminoff.net/gibson-background/

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## Darryl Wolfe

I'm going to stand by my observations posted on Facebook.  I think this mandolin is by Orville and it simply pre-dates the full development of his F-style.  Now, if we knew for sure when it was made, we might think differently.

The one thing that stands out to me is that the F-attributes are there.  When you remove the violin type cuts in the side, it really starts taking on the look.

What I'm saying is I think this looks more like something evolving INTO an F instead of an F devolved into this.

I think we should quit saying this doesn't look Orville and that doesn't and consider that it could pre-date everything Orville finally decided on.

Thanks for posting this on MandolinCafe as I asked Alex.

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## MikeEdgerton

I knew I'd seen that mandolin before. It's *here*.

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## Michael Weaver

> I knew I'd seen that mandolin before. It's here.


Hmmmm....interesting!

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## Jim Garber

> The OP makes the same claim about the tailpiece ... but in point of fact, that lyre tailpiece appears on precisely zero of the Orville mandolins one can find in a Google image search.


Well, not exactly... it is on one of the Lyre mandolins but I agree that could easily have been replaced as well and is not a basis for attribution to the maker.

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## Timbofood

The "Lyre" I saw back in the mid '70's had a pineapple TP if memory serves.
I suppose the argument for it preceding the accepted "F" style is reasonable enough but....

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## MikeEdgerton

The Lyre mandolin that surfaced at Gruhn's in 2006 had the same tailpiece as the OP's does and the headstock inlay is more like that on the OP's mandolin. (Photo from Siminoff page linked to above)

Oops and posted by Jim Garber previously.

Detailed photo's of this mandolin can be found *here*, including a closeup of the carving on the Lyre mandolin bridge.

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## MikeEdgerton

So far all of the Orville built instruments I've seen seemed to have a volute where the neck meets the headstock. Did they all have that?

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## Timbofood

I will never forget the day when the lyre mandolin came through the door, there were four of us standing there pretty much dumbfounded! The guy had made a trade at the drag races the day before and had heard about the store, happy he came to see us before he went to the factory! I know this all has been brought up before but, it jogged the memory.

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## Steve Davis

The reply was meant for Graham.

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## barney 59

> I knew I'd seen that mandolin before. It's *here*.


Interesting ---I forgot that thread or that I had seen it before. I have had a problem with Larson claims where anything that's old and good and unidentifiable can suddenly become a Larson but last night it occurred to me that this "Orville" were looking at could possibly have been built by the Larsons. So 4 years ago it was a Larson and now it's a Gibson  ---Hmmm----I couldn't find any examples of a Larson just like that but they did build a violin shaped arch top sans the lump that isn't ( taken Larson ability to make things quite different from anything else they ever made) too much of a stretch to imagine that they could have made it!

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## Michael Weaver

> So far all of the Orville built instruments I've seen seemed to have a volute where the neck meets the headstock. Did they all have that?


His prototype guitar did.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Interesting ---I forgot that thread or that I had seen it before. I have had a problem with Larson claims where anything that's old and good and unidentifiable can suddenly become a Larson but last night it occurred to me that this "Orville" were looking at could possibly have been built by the Larsons. So 4 years ago it was a Larson and now it's a Gibson  ---Hmmm----I couldn't find any examples of a Larson just like that but they did build a violin shaped arch top sans the lump that isn't ( taken Larson ability to make things quite different from anything else they ever made) too much of a stretch to imagine that they could have made it!


I think that many of the instruments attributed to the Larson's were probably built by Regal. Bob Carlin's *Regal Musical Instruments* book gives some real examples of what Regal was actually building. They had the ability to build this instrument, I'm just not sure they did.

I'm kind of with Darryl on this but that's because I want to find at least four more mandolin body styles built by Orville. If this is an Orville built mandolin it would be two out of the four.

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## Ken Waltham

> Perhaps, but when the OP argues that the tuners are "consistent with Orville Gibson made instruments," it behooves us to judge that claim in light of the evidence. The OP makes the same claim about the tailpiece ... but in point of fact, that lyre tailpiece appears on precisely zero of the Orville mandolins one can find in a Google image search. The star and crescent on the headstock is the only real point of similarity, and even it isn't quite the same as any that Orville produced.


Exactly right. That tailpiece has nothing to do with Gibson. And the tuners, they were never on Orville instruments originally, only retro fitted later.

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## Jeff Mando

> The star and crescent on the headstock


Isn't that the symbol for the Nation of Islam? (I know Gibson came first)  Curious as to the origin.

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## barney 59

Mike, I have also wondered about that---for example Emil Wulshner and Sons --The "Indiana Regals" that get mentioned. I have seen several Wulshner and Sons instruments attributed to Larson. Wulshner began operation in 1885 before Larson's began to work for Mauer and was producing some state of the art instruments. Presentation grade mandolins and stress topped guitars (like Larson) were part of their line, I've wondered if they were the first to do so. Emil Wulshner died in 1900 and the company was sold in 1904 to a group of investors and by 1906 the operation had moved to Chicago as The Regal Co.  The only explanation I could come up with for a Larson claim would be for that period after Dad died and before the operation moved if the "Sons" were part of Dad's company like my sons are part of mine and that maybe they contracted with someone else in order to fill orders, keep the business alive until they could sell it..  I still find it interesting though that this mandolin came up for discussion in 2010 as a Larson thread.

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## barney 59

> Isn't that the symbol for the Nation of Islam? (I know Gibson came first)  Curious as to the origin.


Or the "Syrians", you know,--- the guys in the parade with the Fezzes and the funny little cars! Maybe Orville was a member-----He liked funny hats!

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## David Lewis

Orville was into the occult, I understand. So, the various crescents and symbols have esoteric meanings.

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## Jim Garber

According to a 1937 article posted by Paul Fox on *this page*:




> The pearl inlays [Orville] Gibson used were made by a Turkish manufacturer, which probably accounts for the star and crescent design”. When I first heard this one, I thought it was nonsense. I guess I was wrong. The crescent & moon is the symbol of Islam. Take a look at the earliest F-2 & F-4 mandolin ads below.

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Jeff Mando, 

Michael Weaver

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## danb

Symbols like the star and crescent were sprinkled all over the US at that point in history. The Masons used them! It's easy to get over-excited and ascribe a particular meaning but there are so many possible explanations. I think there is an air of "Exoticism" or just simply "wanting to look cool" in Orville's designs. The scrolls can be seen as a reference to Greek Ionic column capitals.. the aesthetics of asymmetry that he used, the victorian filigree of his inlaid pickguards etc.. these are all present in all sorts of other places at the time. 

I do think that the inlay on this example is meant to "quote" Orville here

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David Lewis, 

Scott Tichenor

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## danb

Yes, Orville really did like using volutes on the back of his pegheads. Note also complete lack of handel tuners in the later gibson F style!

Here's a sampling:

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## danb

Here's what I'm on about with the carving too.. thick plates, luxurious furniture-like curves, large flat back plates..

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## danb

And finally for now.. some good illustrations of the "hollow neck" and construction points, shown on 2526 a very early factory instrument

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billhay4

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## Timbofood

I heard a story about the whole "Star and crescent" thing,
Orville had struck a deal with a Syrian gent who had offered him a very advantageous deal if he would use that in pegheads.
No clue if it's true or not but, it's a fun story. If you look at the "other" Lyre mandolin, the inlay is not the star and crescent but more "wheel" like I know there's a name for the design but, drawing a blank right now. Just an observation.
I'm with you Dan, that's how I have thought about "Orvillian" backs too, they almost look like buffet tables!

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## MikeEdgerton

I think Dan is right on the star and crescent. No occult, no anything other than the country saw it as mysterious and desireable. Note the theaters and such being built at the time and the style they were being built in. I'll also guess that they were stock items used in other industries someplace in the world.

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David Lewis

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## barney 59

The "Syrians" that I mentioned after I thought about it are actually the "Shriners", an offshoot of the Masons, and those symbols are common to them. "Friendly" societies were really popular back then and the Shriners were wealthy and big, particularly in the midwest. Most prominent citizens belonged to some group or another and to align yourself with the correct one could be important to your prosperity and social status. Some like the "Oddfellows" were kind of a pre-welfare insurance plan that took care of it's own members. The Shriners took/take care of sick kids. The Masons-who knows -rule the world? -or is that the Bohemians? Anyway many of these societies claim to trace their history back to the Crusades --Knights Templars and such and that accounts for the Islamic symbols. The Bohemians can only trace their history back to Jack London but that's typical for California. My family belonged to "The Moose" which might account for my prosperity!

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## Jeff Mando

Thanks, guys!  All good comments.  I guess with the internet and 24 hour cable news channels, we all are more "worldly" today than the world of the 1890's.  Back then a person who read a few books and traveled some might possess enough arcane knowledge to start a cult or a mandolin company!

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## MikeEdgerton

The Shriners operated a children's hospital in the city I grew up in. A quick search shows that they have a history back into the late 1800's in Michigan. It's conjecture on my part but there's a very good chance that is why Orville chose that symbol. It may simply have been that the pearl was readily available or I guess he might have been a Shriner. The problem would be that Orville turned the Shriner symbol upside down. They use the same elements but they are different. Gibson was kind enough to put the logo on the later Epiphone models that had the star and crescent upside down from the way Orville put it. The later model is more like the Shriner's logo but it is missing the sword. The star and crescent on the flag of the Republic of Turkey is oriented differently as well. For all the conspiracy theorists out there check out *this* page of flags with the star and crescent on them. None of them are oriented in the Orville Gibson logo layout. My guess is that Orville just liked the way it looked and he could get them readily cut.

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David Lewis

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## Bruce Clausen

> Some like the "Oddfellows" were kind of a pre-welfare insurance plan that took care of it's own members. The Shriners took/take care of sick kids. The Masons-who knows -rule the world? -or is that the Bohemians? Anyway many of these societies claim to trace their history back to the Crusades --Knights Templars and such...


And let's not forget the Mystic Knights of the Sea. :Smile: 

For really odd occult symbols check out the back of a U.S. dollar bill.

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David Lewis

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## lenf12

> Thanks, guys!  All good comments. Back then a person who read a few books and traveled some might possess enough arcane knowledge to start a cult or a mandolin company!


It's more than possible that his mandolin company spawned this little cult on the Cafe.... :Wink: 

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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David Lewis

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## David Lewis

And naturally, I only half explain what I meant, but there's been all this great information come through - I meant to say 'could we compare the symbols on the mandolin to other Orville mandolins'. Of course the trend towards spiritualism meant that all kinds of symbols started appearing everywhere: look at first editions by say, Kipling, and you'll see swastikas (then a completely different meaning) and other such symbols.

And the world is run by the illuminati Freemason Fabian Rothschild lizard people - geez, get it right, people!  :Wink:

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## barney 59

Actually I think that people that were educated back then were often really highly educated.  ---Latin,Greek, a solid background in the classics-- They didn't settle for a Plato wiki page -they read Plato and probably in his own language!  Look at all the really great schools that were founded in the 19th Century all over the country....They had a plan! Today all you could say is " Look at all the really secure prisons that we build!" or "How did my kid get passing grades all the way through school and he's can't count and is practically illiterate? ------and I sent him to good schools!"  Anyway --there is little doubt that OG had a big hand in starting this little cult---he wasn't alone though- you can't count out Bill!   As interesting as a discussion about education in America or Freemasonry might be --so who made that mandolin?.....I'm voting Larson Bros. at this point--the more I look at it the less Orville I see!

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Timbofood

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## David Lewis

Orville as John the Baptist. Bill as Jesus? (With no offence intended - I'm drawing analogies not comparisons. )

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## barney 59

The Beatles were more popular than Jesus or so the story goes. If you read some of the stuff on the page that Mike directed us to the Star and The Crescent apparently go back a millennium or more before Islam and in the same region-associated with the God Mithra by some accounts. Who? Never heard of Mithra but must have been big in it's day! Maybe in a millennium or two some fragments of the Mandolin Cafe will be discovered and scholars will write papers about the Cult of the Mandolinists and their Gods-- Bill, Orville, and Jethro. Intellectuals will argue late into the night the hidden meaning of "That ain't no part of nothin'"!

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## journeybear

> And the world is run by the illuminati Freemason Fabian Rothschild lizard people ...


Oh no you didn't!  :Disbelief:  Now that you've revealed the true identity of The Powers That Be, I suspect you won't get to live much longer. Hopefully you'll have time to put your affairs in order before the hit men show up. It's been grand reading your posts. My condolences, in advance.  :Frown:

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David Lewis, 

Jim

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## clem

Nice to see my old mandolin still inspiring conversation and debate.  Whoever made it knew what they were doing and it is a VERY cool thing.

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## barney 59

Hartman included it in his book---did he attribute it to the Larson Brothers?

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## Michael Weaver

So I'm guessing that Clem is ending the thread? Here is the link http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...Brothers-mando!

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## barney 59

We go right round,right round --like a record baby, right round........

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## JeffD

> And the world is run by the illuminati Freemason Fabian Rothschild lizard people - geez, get it right, people!


From Lemuria.

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## MikeEdgerton

Far be it from me to question an authority on vintage instruments but I'm really not ready to attribute that mandolin to anyone unless they happen to have a catalog page, a labeled similar instrument or something to actually place it there. Two very respected mandolin people on this thread have differing opinions on if it is an Orville Gibson mandolin. I have too many books in my library where experts have classified unmarked instruments wrong.

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## David Newton

Orville was a promoter of the first rank. Did not he label everything he made? Is there not a label, or evidence of one?

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## allenhopkins

Don't know if it's Orville-made, but I hope it is.  Just for the coolness factor.

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## barney 59

If it is a Larson made instrument it's still cool! There's a picture of a Larson made violin style mandola on that Instrument Museum in South Dakota and I haven't been able for the life of me to post it on here. It has a lot of similarities to the one in this thread and it has quite a few Gibson elements to it. If anyone can snag it and post it here that would be nice. Larson's are noted for NOT being labeled! The owner of this mandolin would probably like it to be confirmed as OG made. There might be a monetary factor as it would be a unique collectors item!

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## Jim Garber

barney: do you mean this *Mandola by Carl and August Larson, Chicago, ca. 1927*?

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## barney 59

William C. Stahl maybe?  That would follow for Larson. '27 seems late in the game. Scratch plate similar to an early Gibson. The headstock pattern on this one is common to a lot of Larson instruments. It's not the same as the other one but has some similar elements. Larson Bros always astounds me how many different styles they could produce.There was just supposed to be the two of them --how did they find the time?  The headstock on this one shows up on quite a few Larson built instruments like Prairie States guitars.I kept getting a circle with a line through it when I tried to move the photo.

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## MikeEdgerton

Well they are similar in that they are black and carved and they have strings. Not a whole lot more in common. It is nice to see that faux south jersey pickguard as well  :Smile:

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## Bill Halsey

Not OHG.

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## pfox14

Anyone know if there was any kind of label in the OP's instrument?

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## MikeEdgerton

That mandolin has been in two threads on the cafe (the second is linked to in one of my messages). The first time no mention of a label was made and the second time no mention of a label was made. I would assume that if someone was trying to ID and there was a label of any kind they would have mentioned it. In the thread I linked to one of the owners of that mandolin posted. You could PM him and ask if it had a label.

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## Ken Waltham

No way that's a Gibson mandolin.

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## houseworker

> The inside of the case is pretty cool (D.L. Spero Mens Outfitters).


I wonder if that case dates back to when the instrument was made.  The case is presumably of amateur construction.  The D L Spero name on the cardboard can at least be broadly dated, to circa (and it's a pretty big circa) the time of the second world war.

Aaron Spero, who had emigrated from Prussia in 1875, moved to Brownsville, Texas in 1906, and opened a clothing store that same year (A Spero).  They sold clothes labelled as by "Spero, Michael & Son, Clothes" although there doesn't appear to have been a Michael, rather it was a brand.  The store was a success, and branch stores opened in nearby towns.  David Lawrence Spero was Aaron's only son, although he didn't work in the family store following his marriage in 1910, looking to move into the automobile trade.  His father had retired by 1930, but ownership of the stores doesn't seem to have transferred until after the death of both parents (father in 1934, mother in 1936).

The only direct mention that I can find of D L Spero as a men's outfitter in the archives of the Brownsville Herald comes in 1942 when the company is referenced twice.  If there's a cafe member actually in Brownsville, they may be able to turn up more specific dates for the company under that name.

It's a wonderful looking instrument, but I suspect that it's not as old as most people here are thinking.  It's obviously got significant age, but doesn't look to have the sort of patina associated with an instrument that's over one hundred years old.  That ornate bridge looks magnificent, but I suspect that whoever made that had already seen Loar's adjustable bridge.

My guess is that it's the work of an extremely skilled amateur, and the retro appointments are intended to enhance the wonderful vintage vibe.

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## journeybear

> So I'm guessing that Clem is ending the thread? Here is the link http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...Brothers-mando!


No ... but perhaps he is putting the kibosh on speculation about its origin, to some extent. But that won't end the thread. Nothing can kill a thread except disinterest. That takes time and distraction ...  :Whistling:

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