# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

## M.Marmot

Dagger Gordon's Scots Book thread has got me curious...

For an age now i have figured that, despite their commonalities, there is bound to be differences between Scots and Irish traditional musics. Afterall theres a difference between Irish regional musical styles so surely theres difference between Irish and Scottish music? 

Its the sort of thing you get to believing as a given, but as i have personally never met anyone who is very familiar with Scottish playing i have never had the chance to put this belief to the question.

So, what i'm asking is this, 

What, in your opinion, are the main differences between Scottish and Irish traditional musics?

Do you think either musical tradition has adopted the mandolin more than the other, or is it still early days yet for the mandolins possibilities in trad music?

If theres any useful links, listening or reading reccomendations please feel free to post them.

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## John McGann

Listening will reveal the similarities and differences.

Donegal music is strongly Scottish influenced, but a fair amount of repertoire from all over Ireland is of Scottish lineage.

Some players have not yet accepted guitar, let alone mandolin, as 'traditional'... those would be The Begrudgers, bless their calloused little hearts.

Also, let me be the first to reference the classic Saturday Night Live skit with Mike Myers- "if it's not Scottish, it's ####!!!"  :Wink:

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## Dagger Gordon

As John says, you would really need to do a bit of listening.  It's not something easily described.

A few points, however.
Scottish music is very far from being homogeneous.  There is a world of difference between the somewhat old-fashioned Scottish dance band scene and modern outfits like the Treacherous Orchestra.

The regional differences are considerable as well.  In Scotland the music is often influenced by the bagpipes, so you will get accordionists or fiddlers who specialise in pipe music.  We often play various types of marches and of course we have our strathspey tunes.

As regards the mandolin, I think it is fair to say that it isn't really a major instrument in either Scotland or Ireland although obviously it did feature in important bands like the Dubliners and Planxty in Ireland and is currently used by modern Scottish bands like Shooglenifty and The Chair.

http://www.myspace.com/treacherousorchestra

http://www.jimmyshand.com/

http://www.myspace.com/shooglenifty

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## M.Marmot

Aye, i realised before i typed up the question that both terms, Irish and Scottish traditional music, are painted with broad swathes of generality, and i hoped not to imply that Scottish music is a homogenous bauble... i'm listening to Old Blind Dogs now and i appreciate that theres more than one spice on that Scotch egg.

So perhaps, for a start if someone can head me off with some information on what are the main Scottish musical regions? 

I appreciate that there are a host of connections between Irish and Scottish musics, history and geography colluded for this to be inevitable. But, the kernel i'm looking for is what distinguishes each from the other, for surely each has its own unique features?

For instance, Dagger mentions the Strathspey and as far as i can tell thats a form thats not often used in Irish circles.

So thats one thing for me to explore...

Another point brought up is the influence that the pipes have had on the conditioning of Scottish music, i can only wonder if the same holds true for Irish music?

From what i know the Uillean pipes suffered a near fatal decline in popularity so i can only wonder how extensive their influence is surely not on the same par as the pipes in Scotland?

A thing i have noticed myself, though i don't know how true this is, is that Scottish bands are not shy in their use of drums and percussion, where as Irish music tends to grudgingly tolerate bodhrans. I know, again this is rather general, Moving Hearts had their drums and all...

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## CES

Scotch vs. Whiskey?  Before Breakfast?

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## Bertram Henze

Coming from Irish music myself, I have learned that Scotland has - beside the adoption of Irish-style pub sessions and the cross-transfer of a few tunes - a rich and complicated music tradition, based on the piper's standard tune set system of march, strathspey and reel. Quite remote from the cliche of the piper, standing on a hill alone, wearing nothing under his kilt (which is not true, all pipers wear socks under their kilt), this music is frequently done in orchestra-like settings of quite many fiddlers and a piano, the so-called strathspey and reel societies.

I once had the honor of inadvertently stumbling into a rehearsal of one on Orkney (not that the Orcadians see themselves as Scottish...). They invited me to sit down with them and were very interested in my OM (apparently not too well known in this genre, that much to say about mandolins). I tried to accompany along with doublestops and found out that the chords of that music are completely different from those of Irish tunes. It was a friendly and relaxed atmosphere, but I felt totally alien, music-wise.
In the meantime, I have caught up just a little bit and can now play one of the standard pieces of their repertoire: Hector the Hero.

Oh, and as for drums - let's not forget that the Irish are poets, but the Scots are warriors. Pipe band music has a strong link to warfare, where drums come quite naturally, I think.

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Kay Kirkpatrick

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## DougC

Try listening to one tune that is commonly played by different styles of playing. Miss McLeods Reel for example is played by Scottish and Irish and Appalachian Old Time, French Canadian, and even Cajun musicians. The timing of the ornaments in Scottish is a bit more 'clipped' than in Irish music. You'll hear that right away. Kevin Burke does the tune on his Open House album in a set with an Old Time tune called Lost Indian and he does an interesting mix of Old Time / Irish bowing. It is not exactly 'pure' Irish style but he sure has fun with it.  Just one example. 
Good listening.

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## Bertram Henze

Pub sessions, by the way, are much governed by pipers as well - not highland pipes, of course, but they have an incredible variety of indoor versions, mainly smallpipes and border pipes. I attended a session once in Uig (on Skye), with two fiddlers, a guitar player and one round merry fellow with bellows-driven border pipes. The fiddles were inaudible and the guitar player and I had to bang chords at maximum power to be faintly heard beside those pipes. Some of the tunes were of Irish origin, but modified to make do with the limited pitch range of the pipes.

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## Jim MacDaniel

> Scotch vs. Whiskey?  Before Breakfast?


In Ireland and the US, we have _Whiskey_ before breakfast. If you're in Scotland or Canada, you would have _Whisky_ before breakfast.  :Wink:

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## allenhopkins

I have noticed that Scottish musicians tend to play hornpipes faster than Irish musicians -- and much faster than Welsh.  This may have to do with the different ways they're danced in the different cultures.  I've heard many more polkas and waltzes from Irish than from Scottish players.  And I haven't heard the 9/8 "slip jig" rhythm in Scottish playing.  

Some of the Scottish fiddle pieces, like Skinner's, are as difficult as anything I've heard played.  Check out *The Mathematician,*_ e.g._

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## Eddie Sheehy

Whiskey is more than just a breakfast drink...

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## Jill McAuley

Re: the Scottish influence on the Donegal style of playing - I saw a great documentary about the Donegal style and they talked to a fiddle player who mentioned the influence of the pipes and then demonstrated a technique for de-tuning the fiddle so as to replicate (kind of) the sound of bagpipes - it was awesome! If I can find the link for the documentary I'll post it here...

Cheers,
Jill

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## Steve L

..."I haven't heard the 9/8 "slip jig" rhythm in Scottish playing.  "

I learned a couple of Scottish slip jigs from Tony Cuffe when I studied with him.  "In Dispraise of Whiskey" and I Hae A Wife o' My Ain" which I believe has words put to it by Robert Burns. If there's 2, there's bound to be more.

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## mandocrucian

My 2-cent _impression_ on this:

The heart of Irish music is the wind instruments - flutes, Uillean pipes, whistle; Scottish music has the Highland pipes and the fiddles at its core.

The _alpha instruments_ almost always influence the phrasing and ornamentation of all the other instruments. Highland piping, because of the physical nature of their chanter has a these jagged wide-interval gracings (or articulations).  

Irish music is like a well rounded smooth river rock, while Scottish music is more like a jagged piece of granite that fell off of a rock face.  That's the analogy that works for me. Smooth, fluid, flute playing vs. jagged warpipes and strathspey-playing fiddles.

The actual language and the dialects and accents always feed in to the sound of the instruments. Musical instruments phrase similarly to the way the singers sing.  If Irish (or Scottish) vocalists all sounded like Ralph Stanley or Nimrod Workman, etc., the fiddlers would sound like Curley Ray Cline or any other player who has the "way back in the hills" sound.  If singers sing the "in-between" (non-tempered scale tones), you'll hear that same intonation on the instruments as well.

Where French is the language, the tunes have a different sound. There's a direct link from the sound of the language to the sound of the music. 

NH

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## mandroid

Torr Head to the Mull of Kintyre, is about 13 miles, though the scheduled ferry from Larne to Stranraer,  crosses  a bit more of the North Channel ..

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## foldedpath

> Irish music is like a well rounded smooth river rock, while Scottish music is more like a jagged piece of granite that fell off of a rock face.  That's the analogy that works for me. Smooth, fluid, flute playing vs. jagged warpipes and strathspey-playing fiddles.


Great analogy there. I think it's something you just have to find your way into by listening to good recordings or live performance. The phrase "Scottish Snap" baffled me for a while, but I think I'm starting to recognize it in strathspeys.

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## billkilpatrick

difference in tone, perhaps.

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## Dagger Gordon

Here's a source of Scottish music podcasts.

http://www.footstompin.com/radio

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## M.Marmot

> Re: the Scottish influence on the Donegal style of playing - I saw a great documentary about the Donegal style and they talked to a fiddle player who mentioned the influence of the pipes and then demonstrated a technique for de-tuning the fiddle so as to replicate (kind of) the sound of bagpipes - it was awesome! If I can find the link for the documentary I'll post it here...
> 
> Cheers,
> Jill


A few years ago i was searching through alternate mandolin tunings and so i also had a look at alternate fiddle tunings and i came accross an album by a duo, pipes and fiddle, where the fiddle player, whose name escapes me, had worked in the Irish Musical Archives and had picked up a lot of open tunings from the old field/archival materials, it was a great album... i wish i could remember the name... 

If you ever do find that documentary then please do post that link, i for one am incredibly curious about these things

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## Rob Gerety

I've been listening to this stuff (and playing) for a few years.  I am just beginning to perceive and identify some of the different styles.  Irish, Quebecois, Scottish.  Of course, there is the Cape Breton style as well.  I have a friend who professes to be a Cape Breton style fiddler.  I still really can't tell Cape Breton from anything else. But the more you listen - the more you hear and understand.

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## Mandolin Mick

One thing I learned in my journeys to the UK ... don't ask that question if you're over there, especially in Scotland!

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## Jim MacDaniel

If memory serves me well, I believe Ireland hasn't been a part of the UK since 1948.  :Wink:

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## Mandolin Mick

Northern Ireland is.

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## Jim MacDaniel

Didn't mean to offend Mick, and sorry if I did -- I was just teasing, as I assumed you knew so (particularly since I saw you are from Milwaukee, with no small presence of an Irish culture there  :Smile:  ).

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## Mandolin Mick

Not offended. I take everything at face value, one of my faults. 

But, I've spent a lot of time in England & Scotland over the years and the initial question in Edinburgh would be akin to asking for a fight or a lecture! 

Love & Peace

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## Jill McAuley

Here's that documentary on the South Donegal fiddle style - it's on youtube so broken into several parts - the one I'm posting is the first part and at about 4:40 in you get to the part where there's a fiddle de-tuned so as to try to replicate the sound of the  bagpipes...



Cheers,
Jill

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## theCOOP

> Re: the Scottish influence on the Donegal style of playing - I saw a great documentary about the Donegal style and they talked to a fiddle player who mentioned the influence of the pipes and then demonstrated a technique for de-tuning the fiddle so as to replicate (kind of) the sound of bagpipes - it was awesome! If I can find the link for the documentary I'll post it here...
> 
> Cheers,
> Jill


I hope I don't repeat anything. And I don't claim to be any type of authority on the matter, but the type of fiddle playing known as Cape Breton Fiddle is also developed to mimick the bagpipes.

It gets confusing for some people when bands like The Pogues and Dropkick Murphys and others who describe themselves as Irish, feature Scottish bagpipes rather than the Uillean Pipes (Irish). Though similar, their sound is quite distinct from one another.

Other than the influence of the bagpipes in Scottish music, I couldn't begin to explain the differences as I hear them, but they are quite distinct if you should listen.

The mandolin I believe is far more prominant in Irish music. I read an article recently talking about the first person to modify the instrument to be better suited for Irish music, much like the Irish Bouzouki.

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## Jill McAuley

> The mandolin I believe is far more prominant in Irish music. I read an article recently talking about the first person to modify the instrument to be better suited for Irish music, much like the Irish Bouzouki.


Do you have a link to that article? I have to say, coming from Ireland, I've never heard of anyone modifying the mandolin so that it's better suited to playing trad music on it.

Cheers,
Jill

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## mandocrucian

> It gets confusing for some people when bands like The Pogues and Dropkick Murphys and others who describe themselves as Irish, feature Scottish bagpipes rather than the Uillean Pipes (Irish).


Besides the Uillean pipes (2 octaves, bellows driven), the Irish also have the "warpipes", which are pretty much the same as the Highland pipes.  Here's an article all about it: *The Irish Warpipes*.

NH

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## Eddie Sheehy

I've never heard of anyone modifying a mandolin to be better suited to Irish music either... what could one possibly do to a mandolin?  Flatten the Bowl - done; Use cross-tuning - done; Put a hole in the top to hold a pint glass - done (Herb Taylor), Use MOTS Celtic-motif inlay - done (ad nauseam)...

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## theCOOP

> Do you have a link to that article? I have to say, coming from Ireland, I've never heard of anyone modifying the mandolin so that it's better suited to playing trad music on it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jill


Oh hell, I dunno. Could've been Wiki for all I know (not that that's terribly reliable). Maybe I'm confusing it with an article about the Bouzouki. Regardless, I'll keep an eye out for it.

But if I recall correctly, I think Andy Irvine & Terry Woods (Sweeney's Men) featured prominantly in the article.

Maybe it was _modified_, but simply just _introduced_

I'll keep an eye out for it.

Cheers,
Coop

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## theCOOP

> Maybe I'm confusing it with an article about the Bouzouki. If I recall correctly, I think Andy Irvine & Terry Woods (Sweeney's Men) featured prominantly in the article.
> 
> Maybe it was _modified_, but simply just _introduced_
> 
> Cheers,
> Coop


Yup, my apologies. It seems I was thinking of the (Irish) Bouzouki being _introduced_ to traditional Irish music by _Johnny Moynihan_ (Sweeney's Men) in the late 60s and not Irvine or Woods, and not the Mandolin.

I don't think this is where I originally read it: http://www.ceolas.org/instruments/

cheers,
Coop

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## Bruce Evans

> As regards the mandolin, I think it is fair to say that it isn't really a major instrument in either Scotland or Ireland although obviously it did feature in important bands like the Dubliners and Planxty in Ireland and is currently used by modern Scottish bands like Shooglenifty and The Chair.


David, can you please cite for me, preferably with a YouTube example, a piece where The Dubliners use a mandolin? They of course have always used the tenor banjo by Barney McKenna and the 5 string as early as Luke Kelly, but I am aware of no instances where the mandolin is used. In absence of a YouTube, how about a reference to a record track? Thanks.

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## mandroid

Paleolithic Human settlement of the smaller island was from the larger one to the east.

 [ Perhaps the topic of one of the lectures ]  :Whistling: 


then theres the Enclosure acts of Parliament, forcing many Scots off the commons lands , 
 then those peoples used in Transplantation of Ulster, and the subsequent Migration to the Colonies.   :Popcorn:

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## theCOOP

> David, can you please cite for me, preferably with a YouTube example, a piece where The Dubliners use a mandolin? They of course have always used the tenor banjo by Barney McKenna and the 5 string as early as Luke Kelly, but I am aware of no instances where the mandolin is used. In absence of a YouTube, how about a reference to a record track? Thanks.


Is this not the dubliners w/ mandolin? Maybe they weren't actually billed as The Dubliners. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6uX5GBmfTI

The liner notes to The Dubliners - 30 Years a Greying shows that both Barney and Eamonn perform the Mandolin

Afcourse _30 Years a Greying_  was released in 1992, so perhaps that doesn't count somehow?

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## Bruce Evans

I wasn't challenging your statement, just asking for an example as I hadn't seen or heard the mandolin used by the Dubliners. Now I have, and I thank you for making me aware. I am a singer more than anything else, and I guess I tend to focus on The Dubs songs more than instrumentals.

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## trebleclef528

> If memory serves me well, I believe Ireland hasn't been a part of the UK since 1948.


Complicated subject which even many Scots and Irish don't take the time to research.
Loosely speaking *Britian* was the term for the United Kingdoms of Scotland and England (by the Act of Union in 1707.)

*Great Britian* in legal terms are the United Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Wales (although some historians would argue that Wales is a Principality of England, hence you have "Prince Charles the Prince of Wales", but i would'nt like to argue that one with my Welsh friends.)

*The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland* was the formal name of the United Kingdom from 1 January 1801 until 12 April 1927. It was formed by the merger of the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland.

Following Irish independence on 6 December 1922, when the 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty came into effect, the name continued in official use until it was changed to *the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland* by the Royal and Parliamentary Titles Act of 1927. The part of the island of Ireland that seceded from the United Kingdom in 1922 is today named Ireland (although often described as the Republic of Ireland to distinguish it from the island)..... and Northern Ireland of course remained "British"

A new constitution was introduced in 1937 that declared an entirely sovereign state and named it simply as Ireland. 1948  the Republic of Ireland (as it became know) cut off all lasting political links with the United Kingdom and is now fully independent (with the exception of the 6 counties of Northern Ireland.)

So that's why on a British Passport it states *"United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland".*

ahhh, history and politics  Yuueeegh. give me good old Scots/Irsih music any time  :Mandosmiley:

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## Jill McAuley

> David, can you please cite for me, preferably with a YouTube example, a piece where The Dubliners use a mandolin? They of course have always used the tenor banjo by Barney McKenna and the 5 string as early as Luke Kelly, but I am aware of no instances where the mandolin is used. In absence of a YouTube, how about a reference to a record track? Thanks.


There's mandolin on the recording I have of "The Black Velvet Band" - not sure what year it's from but Luke is singing. There's also mandolin on "The Marino Waltz" aka "Marino's Waltz"....

Cheers,
Jill

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## Mandolin Mick

Trebleclef528-

Thanx!!! You said it so much better and with such authority that a Yankee like me could never even approach!

My wife & I have loved our time in your country! Stayed in Edinburgh and on the shores of Loch Ness in Inverfarigaig! Beautiful country & people!

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## theCOOP

I didn't suppose you were. I just wasn't sure a compilation of tunes with special guests constituted as _The Dubliners, Proper_. Or if they themselves might be guests on another album (The Pogues), or oif there wasn't a sufficient number in attendance to refer to them as The Dubliners collectively, or billed as such.

Now with Ronnie Drew also deceased, would The Dubliners be quite as recogniseable?

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## Dagger Gordon

Not exactly a Youtube, and he could with tuning up a bit, but here you are.  

Barney and John used mandolins quite a bit, if I remember rightly.  I'm not really that familiar with their stuff, but I'm pretty sure they featured the mandolin (bowl-back?) reasonably often.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIEy7...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SBTk...eature=related

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## JeffD

In one tradition you have all these great tunes that are addicting and can be played enthusiatically with others. In the other tradition you have.... um...  never mind. 

I just play what they are playing at the session, and leave it at that. I usually find that I know something like 1/3 of the tunes, and if I play with those folks another time I can get up to 2/3.

If I knew all the tunes I would never get to drink!

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## Dagger Gordon

JeffD,

Can't let you off with that, I'm afraid.

Please explain.

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## JeffD

:Laughing:  Well its based on my experiences in and around the Edinburgh Folk Festival, the very first time I attended. 

I was younger then, and went at enjoyments with an energy and passion I now reserve for deadlines at work.  :Frown:   I went to every jam I could, and some were billed as Irish and some were billed as Scottish, as I remember the sessions inside upstairs at what was kind of "ground zero", were mostly Irish, while by contrast, the wonderful time I had at Sandy Bell's, or The Green Tree were considered more Scottish. I was new to it all and could hardly tell you the difference. It all seemed faster than I could play, though I could recognize many of the tunes.

I played all day, and with my little cassette recorder gobbled up the tunes I didn't know, learned them at night, and the next day was able to do more.

The main point was that at the time I personally felt I had to learn every tune. Every tune I did not know I took as a challenge and an assignment. I burned myself out, but had I died, it would take the mortician a week just to get the smile off my face.

The difference between the Scottish sessions and the Irish sessions, to one like me at the time were not really noticed. Many of the tunes showed up in both kinds of jams, or at least were at least not unwelcome. It was all one big mountain to me.

It took me several years of full blown "to the wall" playing, in Edinburgh, Glasgow, in Ireland in Dublin and in Galway Bay and elsewhere, in the States and in Canada, for me to acquire the wisdom to utlize the moments when I didn't know the tune to take advantage of the other enjoyments of the musical environment.

So, whatever the differences between Irish and Scottish, they most certainly are not in the exciement and enthusiasm with which one can immerse oneself in the tunes, or how infinite the repertory can seem, and certainly not in how steep the mountain can feel to the newbie.

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## Charlieshafer

The "jagged rock vs. water-smoothed stones" analogy is great. I come from the Scots fiddle end of things, and your aim is to spew great shards of rhythm and melody across the dance floor. Rhythm is king, heavy accent on the up beats to get the dancers moving. THE all-time great link to sit down and get a handle on Scots tunes is here: James Scott Skinner.  There's one old field recording of Skinner playing his own compositions, and search for pieces like "The Hurricane" and Tullochgorum" being played by folks like Natalie MacMaster (Capre Breton) or Jenna Reid (Scotland) or most anything by Alasdair Fraser or Hanneke Cassel. Youtube and Amazon are full of snips. It's craggy, sometimes strangely-metered stuff, especially the Strathspeys. 

We're hosting a workshop for Scots fiddling in Madison, Ct on April 17, and there's no reason mandolin players can't sit in to really get a feel for what's up. Hanneke Cassel is teaching, then there's a concert and dance in the evening with her band. Besides, the workshops we hold are free...

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## M.Marmot

> The "jagged rock vs. water-smoothed stones" analogy is great. I come from the Scots fiddle end of things, and your aim is to spew great shards of rhythm and melody across the dance floor. Rhythm is king, heavy accent on the up beats to get the dancers moving.


That's my favourite analogy in this thread so far> i have spent some time listening to both Irish and Scottish music with this in mind and it does begin to help me distinguish the musical accents better.

Also thanks to all the folks who have provided videos, links and their own sincere thoughts on this subject, it really does help to have the opinions of others who enjoy the music.

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## M.Marmot

> ahhh, history and politics  Yuueeegh. give me good old Scots/Irsih music any time


There's an old pub rule, 'no politics and no religion at the bar' and with good reason. :Laughing: 

I have to say though, i did appreciate your addition to the political sideshow of this thread. As a quick outline its gives a fine taster of the complications of history and more than hints at the connections of all the cultures of these islands.

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## M.Marmot

> Paleolithic Human settlement of the smaller island was from the larger one to the east.


Apparently there is no evidence to support the case for Paleolithic human settlement in Ireland... though a herd of prehistoric mandocellos were recently found preserved in a peat bog in Tommervarney... so well preserved in fact that the plectrums that last fallen in their sound holes were still to be found in their bellys

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## M.Marmot

> Here's that documentary on the South Donegal fiddle style


Ta very much for that, i'm gonna make meself a cuppa tay and sit down to enjoy that now :Coffee:

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## M.Marmot

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...1203443425133#

Well whaddya know! 

Heres a link to a series discussing the different regional Irish styles, from the good folks of TG4. :Grin:

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## JeffD

> Apparently there is no evidence to support the case for Paleolithic human settlement in Ireland... though a herd of prehistoric mandocellos were recently found preserved in a peat bog in Tommervarney... so well preserved in fact that the plectrums that last fallen in their sound holes were still to be found in their bellys



Close enough.

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## M.Marmot

I hope Mr. Marshall won't be too disgruntled that i embellished on his mandosaurus joke, it just seemed fitting given the circumstances :Redface:

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## JeffD

> I hope Mr. Marshall won't be too disgruntled that i embellished on his mandosaurus joke, it just seemed fitting given the circumstances


I thought it was great. Both MM's and yours.

The joke stays in your head, like a good tune, and you just gave us your version of the tune.



"I think the cheese is finally off the cracker."

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## Bren

>David, can you please cite for me, preferably with a YouTube example, a piece where The Dubliners use a mandolin?
It might be on Dagger's YouTube links but there are recordings of Dubliners playing "The Croppy Boy" with what sounds like two mandolins backing and also Barney playing Chief O'Neill on mandolin.
Earliest I remember mandolin in Irish music is The Clancy Bros on "Leaving of Liverpool", possibly Mike Seeger on mandolin.

There are so many mandolins in Scottish music now that it's hard to think of it as being more common in Irish. Sometimes it seems like every Shetlander or Orcadian plays mandolin at least as a second or third instrument.
I've heard it said that the islanders' fondness for mando is down to the fact that you can play it lying on your back in the bunk of a fishing boat and it's less of a hassle and a risk to take offshore than a fiddle. 

After all, isn't the portability and adaptability of a mandolin one of its great appeals? And no special sitting position required, no risk of taking someone's eye out at close quarters (assuming you trim your string ends).

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## smsuryan

I have a scottish influence in my playing after a little laphroaig... :Smile:

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## Bertram Henze

> I have a scottish influence in my playing after a little laphroaig...


How could I forget that! I have run out of Laphroaig recently and was wondering why my playing starts to sound Irish - thanks for the heads-up  :Laughing:

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## M.Marmot

> http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...1203443425133#
> 
> Well whaddya know! 
> 
> Heres a link to a series discussing the different regional Irish styles, from the good folks of TG4.


Alors, as of late i've been scouring the net for relevent documentaries and sites to further explore this subject. As usual TG4 have a fine array of programmes showcasing Irish music, Geantrai, Ceird an Cheoil, various one offs focussing on musicians, a very strong majority of which are representative of the Donegal traditions, and Canuinti Cheoil, the series linked here above. I found the latter to be well worth the watch and i plan to re-watch them with an ear to the different regional ways of playing the same tune.

On that note, i was wondering if any kind folks could direct me to documentaries that deal with Scottish traditional music/musicians?

I'll point out that i am aware of the Transatlantic Sessions with that diamond Aly Bain, and also one with Mr. Bain and one of the Cunningham lads on tour, i am also aware of the Highland (?) Sessions, where a mix of musicians from all over do the rounds, but i'm thinking, that as fine as the music can be on the Session docmentaries, its just a wee bit too produced and not what i'm after, which would be programmes focusing on the history of Scottish traditional music/musicians, or even a Scottish version of Geantrai where the performers are not nipped from the rosters of folk-trad recording stars.

Any help would be appreciated.

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## Dagger Gordon

Maybe this.  Haven't watched them myself.

http://www.horogheallaidh.com/en/programman/index.jsp

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## Bren

Try some videos of "Scotland's Music" with Phil Cunningham 
They're on YouTube.

Although it doesn't really explain much in the way you're after. The section on Gaelic psalm singing is spooky and essential.

I'd have to say Scotland's music is overshadowed on the world stage by Irish - you almost have to live here to get any idea of the breadth of it. Even in Scotland there is, or was when I arrived in the late 70s, more access to recorded trad Irish music, so many Scottish players of a certain generation seem more influenced by Irish LPs and CDs than Scottish.

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## Bertram Henze

To add to the width of music associated with Scotland, check out the Dutch band Rapalje. They have a genuine Scottish piper (from Scotland), make a point of appearing as archaic and bloodthirsty as possible but take nothing really seriously. Their renditions of Drunken Sailor and Bog Down in the Valley are priceless.

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## M.Marmot

> Maybe this.  Haven't watched them myself.
> 
> http://www.horogheallaidh.com/en/programman/index.jsp


Thank you for the link but it weems this is another all star extravaganza, with musicians from all over the world; saying that though, it is a pretty crop that they have picked so i'll still probably get about to watching them sometime.

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## M.Marmot

> I'd have to say Scotland's music is overshadowed on the world stage by Irish - you almost have to live here to get any idea of the breadth of it. Even in Scotland there is, or was when I arrived in the late 70s, more access to recorded trad Irish music, so many Scottish players of a certain generation seem more influenced by Irish LPs and CDs than Scottish.


I might be hasty in saying this but, i am coming to the conclusion that BBC Scotland does not do half near enough to promote the traditional music when compared to the likes of TG4 in Ireland which have produced some fine documentaries and series on the subject. Saying that though, TG4 also comes out streets ahead on this matter when compared to Ireland's national broadcaster RTE, which seems to have reigned in its traditional music appreciation to the odd infrequent documentary and the airing of archive footage.

I do appreciate any presentation of these musics but i'll admit that theres that side of me that gets turned off when its limited to the top recording artists in the field. Thats why i appreciate programmes like TG4's Geantrai where local musicians, and many of them are fine players in their own rights, have a chance to be aired.

As for the Irish influence... It does seem that the Planxty/Bothy Band model of playing has been sweeping the boards internationally in terms of traditional, and we'll use that term loosely here, music performance. I can see why they were both electrifying groups that managed to capture the rush and pulse of the source materials without the trappings and excess of a lot of the folk-rock acts of the time. In a sense they have come to shadow the field with their legacy...

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## Dagger Gordon

Try some Youtubes of the Blas Festival held around the Highlands in September.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I20QirBmpVI

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## Bertram Henze

> As for the Irish influence... It does seem that the Planxty/Bothy Band model of playing has been sweeping the boards internationally in terms of traditional, and we'll use that term loosely here, music performance. I can see why they were both electrifying groups that managed to capture the rush and pulse of the source materials without the trappings and excess of a lot of the folk-rock acts of the time. In a sense they have come to shadow the field with their legacy...


The Scots had their own groups of that sort at the time, and they have been my own entry-level access: Tannahill Weavers, Silly Wizard, Kentigern. Only much later I got nearer to the more basic concepts, i.e. of how to create the authentic feel with a minimum of technical effort. I would not have been able to make the transition directly (coming from listening to Jethro Tull records), so I owe them.
And I think all the forms of playing have their neuk where they do good. It's all real. Tradition is all about development everybody can participate in, like an open source community of music. And the contrasting worlds of keeping strictly formal vs. trying what goes exist in both countries (think: a CCE contest vs. Moving Hearts, a SRS vs. Deaf Shepherd), only the differences between the countries are more conspicuous in formal custom.

It should not be too easy to maintain differences, by the way, just because there is a narrow stretch of sea between - in the old days of celtic Britain water was the easiest traffic route and should be viewed as an element of connection rather than separation. And a lot went over that connection both ways.

Anyone who wants to hear maximum basic Scotland should listen to unaccompanied waulking songs. When I heard that the first time, I involuntarily thought of Indians dancing around a campfire to attract buffalo. Modern performances are open to male listeners, other than the original (waulking was pure women's work, done with the naked legs while sitting on the floor - no men allowed).

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## M.Marmot

> And I think all the forms of playing have their neuk where they do good. It's all real. Tradition is all about development everybody can participate in, like an open source community of music. And the contrasting worlds of keeping strictly formal vs. trying what goes exist in both countries (think: a CCE contest vs. Moving Hearts, a SRS vs. Deaf Shepherd), only the differences between the countries are more conspicuous in formal custom.
> 
> It should not be too easy to maintain differences, by the way, just because there is a narrow stretch of sea between - in the old days of celtic Britain water was the easiest traffic route and should be viewed as an element of connection rather than separation. And a lot went over that connection both ways.


Watching some of the documentaries only brings home the constant communication between the two countries, especially with regards the music of the north of Ireland and Donegal. It was driven home again and agin in certain programmes that for Irish people of a certain generation seasonal migration to Scotland for work was the norm and that there was a great interchange of musics and cultures between the two countries.

I was also unexpectedly reminded of this musical migration just the other day when listening to an album of songs by a man from the north of england, Tommy Armstrong. Mr. Armstrong, 1848 - 1920, also known as 'The Pitman Poet', was a prolific songwriter
and would often set his lyrics on existing folk tunes, a surprising number of which i knew from Irish traditional playing... it was more than a bit amusing to find yourself whistling along to a hundred year old song you never heard before only to realise you full well knew the melody already. Again the reason for this was that there was an influx of Irish immigrants to feed the growing mining industry.

http://www.pitmanpoet.derwentside.or...yArmstrong.htm

The interesting thing for me is just how this constant mixing of cultures not only results in a sharing of musics and motifs but also how some elements rise or remain uniquely in some areas, the musical 'accents' so to speak

And thank you, I'll definitely have a look at those waulking songs.  :Smile:

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## Hessian

_ Originally Posted by Bruce Evans  
David, can you please cite for me, preferably with a YouTube example, a piece where The Dubliners use a mandolin? They of course have always used the tenor banjo by Barney McKenna and the 5 string as early as Luke Kelly, but I am aware of no instances where the mandolin is used. In absence of a YouTube, how about a reference to a record track? Thanks._

Another two songs which feature the mandoline are "the leaving of Liverpool" and "the prodigal son".

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## Tosh Marshall

A band with a mixture of Scots and Irish were Boys of the Lough, which in the early days featured Aly Bain and Dick Gaughan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNyHn...eature=related Their first album is great.  For me I always check out the fiddlers as that is a good pointer, from Ireland Martin Hayes and Kevin Burke and from Scotland Aly Bain, Willie Hunter, Tom Anderson and the new generation of Jenna Reid, Catriona MacDonald & Chris Stout and their respective bands Dochas, Blazin Fiddles and Fiddlers Bid.  Some great 70's Scottish Folk/Rock bands were the JSD Band, Five Hand Reel, Contraband & Ossian (more details on Nigel Gatherer's site).
I listen to Robbie Shepherd on BBC Radio Scotland to the Scottish Country Dance scene and you would be amazed at how many tunes you know in the sets! http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0079g5m 
Betram mentioned Hector the Hero and here's Dagger playing it with Jenna Reid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Woqsh...eature=related

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## Bertram Henze

> The interesting thing for me is just how this constant mixing of cultures not only results in a sharing of musics and motifs but also how some elements rise or remain uniquely in some areas, the musical 'accents' so to speak


One difference I have always found is in the lyrics of songs. I don't mean Lowland Scots, that's taken for granted. I mean the way relations between the sexes are described - an Irish song will make generous poetic detours around anything that might be offending, while a Scottish song will simply tell what happens, with most of the biological details explicitly described. Take, for example "A Maid Gaed tae the Mill ane Nicht" (I first heard it on a record of Cilla Fisher and Artie Trezise) - a song like that would be hard to find in Ireland. Another example is "Eppie Morrie" (four and twenty hieland men cam frae the Carron side, they stale awaa Eppie Morrie for she wouldna be a bride...) - I don't have to tell you what that would be called today. Also, the ever recurring theme of the farmer's daughter running away with a beggar, only to return with "bairnies three" years later - never heard that in Ireland.

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## Eddie Sheehy

There were four and twenty maidens at a ball in Inverness,
And when the ball was over there were four and twenty less..

Of course in Ireland we have An Phis Fhliuch... no lyrics required.

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## Bertram Henze

Eddie, I must admit I had to look at the alternative titles of this tune on thesession.org to find out what that means. I read somewhere that the Irish language has many words simply reproducing the sound or acoustic feel of what is described - this is a good example. It makes me wonder if the Irish language is kind of an attic where the Irish people go to do their politically incorrect thinking...  :Confused:  :Wink:

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## Dagger Gordon

Eddie,

That song is called The Ball of Kirriemuir, and is what is usually known as a 'rugby' song - ie out and out filthy with no pretence at sublety or anything else.
The words actually are 'Four and twenty virgins came down from Inverness' (ie going to the ball at Kirriemuir, which is not far from Dundee).  The chorus which follows is unprintable.
I never expected to see it mentioned here.  I suppose it is a Scottish folk song, but definitely of a particular type and not altogether representative of Scottish music, though I know Burns wrote his Bawdy Ballads and there are plenty of 'coorse' songs around.

There are a lot of songs which are fairly sexually explicit, but often in a 'till the morning they lay as one' type of way, with plenty of them having 'she grew thick aboot the waist'.  I suspect that's not only found in Scotland, however.

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