# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Con molti strumenti

## vkioulaphides

Just heard on the radio the weirdest/jolliest concerto by Vivaldi, in C, _con molti strumenti_. No kidding! The piece had violins and bowed strings in general, mandolins (hurray!), _traversi_ (I think#I was in the car, with all sorts of ambient noises around me), theorbos/lutes (?)... everything, including the proverbial kitchen sink!

Does anyone know this piece? The recording I heard over the airwaves was performed by Europa Galante, conducted by famed Italian violinist (and, evidently, also baton-wielding maestro) Fabio Biondi.

Of course, not formally absurd as the Kozeluch Sinfonia Concertante but still... _molti, MOLTI_...

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## margora

Yes, I have this recording. Very molti.

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## vkioulaphides

Now, I _know_ this piece does not incorporate the reggae the driver of the car next to mine was blasting  but... what exactly DOES it include? Am I even close? Were there perhaps guitars in lieu of theorbos/lutes?

Today, the U.N. is in General Assembly; traffic is horrific... please mind this when you verify/correct my guesses. They are made as per the pandemonium of the West Side Highway, rush-hour, no-other-path-open...

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## CraigF

This is my favorite Vivaldi Concerto. The instrument list I have is:
Recorder
Chalumeau
Violin
Mandolin
Theorbo
Cello

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## vkioulaphides

Ah... _chalumeaux_... THAT's what I heard!

Incidentally, this may be the score that long baffled musicologists, as Vivaldi jotted down a mysterious _corni di salmo_ in the manuscript: absent the accent (salm*ò*), it read "SALmo", i.e. "psalm". Musicologists and music historians had to beat their brains for several generations, speculating on what SORT of psalm, what sort of "horn", etc. before Vivaldi' quite, err... _unorthodox_ Italianization of the French for "reed" struck an inquiring mind.

Also, I must have mistaken the recorders for _traversi_. Blame it on the reggae...  

Thanks, Craig.

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## Neil Gladd

Specifically,

2 Recorders
2 Chalumeaus
2 Violins "in tromba marina"
2 Mandolins
2 Theorbos
solo Cello
and strings.

It's the only concerto I know where the soloists outnumber the orchestra!

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## Jim Garber

> 2 Violins "in tromba marina"


Whatever does that mean? I know what a violin is and what a tromba marina is but what does that mean? A violin played inside a tromba marina or in the style of?

Jim

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## CraigF

> Thanks, Craig.


No problem. I love this piece. It's so bouncy and happy and just has so much energy. It just makes me feel good.

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## etbarbaric

> Whatever does that mean? I know what a violin is and what a tromba marina is but what does that mean?


I don't think that has been resolved Jim. If only we could spend just one day at the Pieta' as a fly on the wall in 1740... Most/many performances are done with muted violins... or some other preparation. Of course the sound of a tromba marina is something to behold...from a distance... 

Interestingly, it is known for what occasion this concerto was performed. The Concerto for molti instrumenti (RV558) was performed together with the wonderful Concerto for leuto and viola d'Amore (RV540) in a concert at the Pieta' commemorating the visit of Fredrick Christian, the son of the King of Poland and the Prince Elector of Saxony on March 21, 1740. Apparently both pieces survive in an elegantly bound volume given to Fredrick as a gift.

Many have speculated that none other than S.L. Weiss may have been present for that concert (and further speculated that he may have been the intended leuto player for RV540), since he was in the employ of the very musical Dresden court at the time. In any case, that must have been one hell of a concert! :-)

Eric

ps - And yes, victor, though scored for theorbos, I too have heard modern classical guitars used... Nothing against the guitar (some of my best friends are guitarists... :-)) but nothing says "WOW" like two six-foot+ theorbos. The motley assemblage must have looked very cool as well.

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## NYClassical

coincidence! i was about to post a vivaldi question.

victor, i believe, as the others said, that this is the C major concerto, RV 558, for 'two of everything'

i have the CD of vivaldi mandolin concerti of

Claudio Scimone and I Solisti Veneti 

Ugo Orlandi and Dorina Frati are the mandolinists and it's on the Erato label.

Now my question:

Does anyone know where I can get the score and parts to another Vivaldi concerto, the G major for 2 mandolins, RV 532?

I was thinking of giving the New York Public Library a shot (the research library at lincoln center). 

Any leads would be greatly appreciated!
adam

ps- i too wonder what 'in tromba marina' means

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## etbarbaric

Hi Adam,

The easy bet is to search through the Ricordi editions. These should be available at most any decent library. Of course, there will be multiple shelves worth of Vivaldi... and its *very* easy to get lost and distracted! :-) These are scores, and not performance editions but in general they have most of the notes.

And though these pieces are generally playable on any mandolin, they were intended for the gut-strung mandolino and not the metal-strung Neapolitan type.

Eric

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## etbarbaric

As a postscript, if you like Vivaldi (and even if you think you don't), I strongly recommend that you check out recordings by the Venice Baroque Orchestra. I don't think they've done any of the mandolino works yet... but these guys really *get* Vivaldi. Most impressive and enjoyable!

Eric

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## RSW

Quite a few years ago I also participated in a recording of this piece, helas with the wrong type of mandolins (beyond my control at the time) though the rest of the band used period #instruments. I gave my lone copy away and cannot even tell you the record company. Contrary to what Eric's link hints at concerning 'tromba marinas', basically it is a sort of single strung bowed instrument that plays entirely with natural harmonics 'alla trompette' and the sound is, if played well, really not disagreable at all, certainly very trumpet like thanks to a sympathetic string that has a loose footed bridge that rattles discreetly (like hurdy gurdys). The example from Eric's link does sound aweful. I was told by a rather fine player of this instrument that the tromba marina was used in monasteries and nuneries to be used in lieu of trumpets and trumpeters, the latter being more difficult and costly to emply. The violins, in the example of the concerto, try to imitate this sound (or should). I'm not sure if there is a proper recording of it using mandolinos (lombard tuning), finger or plectrum style, but most of the recordings I know do not. There is even a recording with Leonard Berntsein and members of the NYPhil, the mandolin parts played by Vicari and De Fillipis (Sony SMK-63161). It's a fun piece and available from Ricordi.

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello All!

We (The CONSORT) have played this really marvellous piece in an arrangement for all mandolin (duo) guitar and and mandoloncello soloists with mandolin orchestra.

And even than the work is just great in every sence!

For the excellent CD of this work (and with the Tromba Marina as decribed by Richard) go for the James Tyler and #Robin Jeffrey (the Mandolino soloists) one: they were the first to do it on instruments Vivaldi´s Concerto per Molti Strumenti (RV 558) was intended for (Mandolino plucked finger style). By the way, it is the 3rd Concerto on this CD.
Vivaldi´s double Mandolino Concerto with the Mandolino´s plucked finger style(!) is also on the CD.

Here´s the link where you can buy it. Click here.


Best, 

Alex

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## CraigF

Alex,

Thanks for pointing out that CD set. It turns out, I have six of those pieces, including this one. When I first started collecting Classical Music, I subscribed to Time Lifes Great Composers series. The second discs content was taken from these recordings.

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## Plamen Ivanov

Hello!

One of my favourite pieces as well! And I`ve always thought it`s pretty popular. I have two interpretations of RV 558. Both on audio casettes. The first by "The English Concert" conducted by Trevor Pinnock. On the mandolins are James Tyler and Robin Jeffrey (any info?) The second part of the Concerto (Andante molto) is played with strokes and not with tremolo. I don`t know who are the performers on the second interpretation, but it`s included in a casette with the other mandolin concertos by Vivaldi, which are (if I remember well) performed by Japanese players - Ochi was one of the mandolin players. I cannot remember the other. In this interpretation the second part is played with tremolo. Any clues?

Plamen

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## Jim Garber

James Tyler and Robin Jeffrey are the mandolinists on the recording that Alex links above.

Jim

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## Plamen Ivanov

Oh, I`m sorry. I missed this somehow. I have all the concerts included in the CD on audio casettes. My teenage Vivaldi madness...

Anyway. More info on James Tyler and Robin Jeffrey? Anyone else heard the second part performed with tremolo?

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## etbarbaric

Hi Plamen,




> Anyone else heard the second part performed with tremolo?


I have... I own several recordings... unfortunately most are on Neapolitan instruments, and at least one uses tremolo on the second movement (I can look through them if desired). I must say candidly that I really don't care for this approach at all. I will don my blindfold and you may now all shoot me! :-) 

My recollection (I'll go check) is that Vivaldi scored the mandolinos in unison with the violins for this movement... I think the effect he's looking for is very different than tremolo. Tremolo can, of course, be done with the fingers as well as a plectrum, but I am unaware of any clear precedent for it in early mandolino music.

Plucked instruments in ensemble settings needn't necessarily be heard in the role of soloist in order to be effective. If you listen to the Venice Baroque Orchestra recordings I mentioned, you'll here an archlute used very effectively in the continuo group. You don't so much hear it as feel it... and it works very well.

Best,

Eric

ps - Thanks Alex for the Tyler link. Oddly, I don't have that recording, and I've only heard a bit of it by accident on the radio one day.

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## etbarbaric

I would, BTW, love to see and hear a well-configured and played tromba-marina. It was not my intent to defame the instrument... only offer what little I know. All of the sound links I was able to find on the Web are... well... somewhat terrifying... There is a young lady (Kate Buehler-McWilliams) who apparently has done work with Dan Larson. Her rather well-named business, Unprofitable Instruments will sell you your very own tromba to play with.

The intriguing bit is that the bow is placed between where the left hand fingers the harmonic node and the nut, not between the node and the bridge, as we are all used to. This is at least partially due to the size of the thing.

Victor, maybe this is the thing for you!

Eric

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Eric and others,

You are quite right about the ´feeling´ and the role of plucked instruments in a string orchestra. I don´t think that the idea was that the Mandolinos should play tremolo here in the 2nd part of the RV 558 Concerto. The role imho for them was to pluck exactly the same notes (same height) like the violins and to give with this single pluck on each note a special attack to them. Interesting complaint by mandolinist (especially those who play on modern instruments) is that they are not heared... (perhaps that´s why the modern instrumentalists play tremolo here...) But this is not the case at all! Once they stop playing their single plucked notes in the middle of a fraze you´ll hear a different sound spectrum.

Interestingly sometime ago, in a discussion somewhere in a topic here at the board, there was talked about something similar with regard to what kind of bass should be used in a mandolin orchestra. 
Also here (modern) ideas and ears mixed up the issue easily. And of course, it is in general not easy to free oneself from what you know and have accepted as deep, warm and loud etc. Not to speak about qualities like loudness, sustain etc. 

In my opinion it was the intention of the Italian luthiers who developed the Chitarrone Moderno (also Archi-liuto, pizzicato bass or plucked bass) to create a bass that would fit the character of a plucked orchestra. Their aim was to deepen and enrich the special sound of a plectrum - plucked orchestra with plucked notes. 

Keeping the same overall character of sound of the ensemble/orchestra like this is done in the bowed string orchestra where it´s lowest member is the (bowed) double-bass. And there are of course more examples, like for instance wind ensembles/orchestras. #

The idea of ´the sound produced by a pluck or stroke´ is what it is all about. And therefore this should (not in the first place) be compared with loudness, warmth or sustain etc. produced by bass instruments from another musical instrument families.
In my mind this would not do justice to the plectrum-plucked instrument family. 
The Chitarrone moderno is simply the bass that was intended to play the bottom line in the orchestra when the mandolin when became together with the mandoliola, mandola, mandoloncello, guitar, liuto moderno and the mandolone an orchestra instrument. 
And this it does perfectly; in fact the Chitarrone moderno is surprisingly loud it it´s attack.

And there are many fine examples made in the first decennia of the 20th Century around. Take for instance the excellent sounding models of Luigi Mozzani and Claudio Gamberini and of course those made by Vincenzo Miroglio, Antonio Monzino, and Raffaele Calace.

That the plucked bass hasn´t got the recognition it deserves and that isn´t widely known is due to the fact that not many people like(d) to take it up seriously. This is why we are unfamilar with it´s possibilities and it´s sound qualities. 
And yes of course, it is very easy to hire or take on a double-bass player for two rehearsals and the concert. 
And why not? They are OK too.

Well, got carried away again; just think of it as seen from an other angle.


Best, 

Alex

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## Martin Jonas

> Her rather well-named business, Unprofitable Instruments will sell you your very own tromba to play with.


An indeed that web page also has a sound clip of a tromba marina. It sounds a bit more musical than the previously linked one, but still rather, well, terrifying. At least from this one it does become apparent why the instrument's tone is compared to the trumpet.

Martin

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## vkioulaphides

I once played a modern work the name of the composer escapes me in fact a quartet for four double basses called _Tromba Marina_. It was wonderfully effective, as we had lots and lots of harmonics to play, often in striking intervallic relationships. The piece was extremely well received when we performed it. 

As for the tromba marina _itself_, much of the information we have is lore rather than hard fact. Fascinating stories...

I must attest to the wonderful sound of the chitarrone moderno; having heard one up close, and having even plucked a note or two on it myself (!), I must say it is a lovely sounding instrument! And, of course, as Alex writes, perfectly at home within the sonority of an all-plucked-instrument orchestra.

If I knew Vivaldi personally,  I would have suggested that he call this work *Noah's Ark*: it holds two of EVERY SPECIES!

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## Bob A

There was a day when I longed for an Alpenhorn. From the looks of the tromba marina, it would be easy to combine the two, and forge a new career.

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## vkioulaphides

A German colleague once sent me a hilarious cartoon bearing the legend "International Convention of Peoples Playing Doof Instruments"; the image depicted a prototypical Schwyzzer blowing an alphorn, an African holding a didjeridoo... what was the third one? A medieval European monk playing a tromba marina would have been quite appropriate.  

To come back on topic (for once, for me), I agree wholeheartedly with the above: while _tremolo_ runs in my blood, I would not use it in this piece or, for that matter, ANY piece in this style. The fact that I like Kalamata olives does not necessarily mean that I want them on my chocolate ice-cream.

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## Plamen Ivanov

Hello,

I would like to excuse myself about repeating what Alex already referred to. I read carefully all the posts, especially those by Alex. I guess, I was just very tired.

I absolutely, no, ABSOLUTELY agree with the opinion of non-using tremolo in this piece! I feel that some of you left with the wrong impression. I read through my post several times and I didn`t find anything, that could put someone in mind, that I like this performance. I paid attention to this interpretation in order to find out who the performers are and not because I like it.
Eric, could you please check your recordings and tell us, which are the performers, that play the second part with tremolo?

Best,
Plamen

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## Plamen Ivanov

A part of my teenage Vivaldi heritage...

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## Eugene

Well, I'm sorry I missed all this. I don't have too much more to add. As much as I appreciate what Tyler has done for the original mandolino type to carry the name, I'm not too fond of his performance of Vivaldi. I can even hear errors in his recording of the 2-mandolin concerto in G. My favorite recording remains Duilio Galfetti & Wolfgang Paul w/ Il Giardino Armonico,1993, Vivaldi: Concerti per Liuto e Mandolino, Teldec 4509-91182-2. They use fine 6-course instruments by Gabrielli, but unfortunately play the mandolini with quill.

My favorite recording of tromba marina must be Gregg Miner's brief use in "Angels We Have Heard on High."

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## Eugene

PS: I think Yepes's modern-instrument recordings with guitars and modern Neapolitan mandolins may have featured tremolo in the slow movement. I'm not certain I recall who played mandolins, but it may have been Takashi Ochi in part.

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## etbarbaric

Well, thanks to the wonders of the Internet, plastic money, and priority mail, I am now listening to the English Consort recordings mentioned above with James Tyler and Robin Jeffries. (long overdue, I'm afraid)

Respectfully, I have to say that I quite like the sounds that Mr. Tyler and Mr. Jeffries get out of their mandolinos on this recording. Yes, there are some issues and missed notes in some places... and sometimes it seems that everyone is waiting for the mandolinos to finish all of their notes :-) ... and perhaps there are some minor tuning issues. But to my ears the mandolino parts are *sooooo* much more appropriate without all of those sharp edges defined by the plectrum. I will forgive all for this!

We must also remember that this was a mid-80s recording. And frankly, this is rather challenging music for the finger-played mandolino...IMHO (at least it is for me). Accounts are that Vivaldi had some *very* talented girls at the Pieta'.

Its impossible to tell how they were mic'ed for this recording, but you can even hear the texture of the mandolinos in the tuttis... with a full string orchestra! As for the Andante Molto of RV558, I think this recording accomplishes what I was trying to describe. The effect of the unison (finger-plucked) mandolinos with the violins is a subtle percussive edge to each note change. You hear them... but don't hear them. Sort of like a one-handed harpsichordist following along the background. Obviously RV558 is all about exploring different textures... sometimes it sounds like a cello... sometimes a caliope!

This is definitely one funky concerto... and Vivaldi was surely having some fun... but with Nigel North and Jakob Lindberg slammin on the theorbos... cool

I bet the Prince of Poland had a smile on his face.

Molti molti!

Eric

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## Eugene

I probably shouldn't have come off sounding so disparaging towards the Tyler and Jeffries et al. disc. I certainly can agree with all you said of the sonority of the recording, Eric. All those little issues you also mention just kind of make me pine for what it _could_ have been. I do really like North and Lindberg; the former especially for theorbo and archlute, the latter especially for 5-course guitar.

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## etbarbaric

I once sat in on a continuo course given by Nigel at an LSA summer seminar. He is one amazing guy... and he literally wrote the book on lute continuo. He even played the mandolino himself once... though he doesn't anymore.

Eric

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## etbarbaric

Just a little tidbit on Vivaldi's "Violins in Tromba Marina" to persue Jim's earlier query...

Another nice thing about the English Consort recordings of Vivaldi featuring Tyler and Jeffries is that the liner notes were written by Michael Talbot! Dr. Talbot is a very well-regarded Vivaldi scholar (and author of the book "Vivaldi").

In his liner notes, Talbot describes the list of instruments for RV558, then says "(in an inventory of 1790 these instruments are enigmatically described as violins which 'do duty as trumpets marine')". In context, he had been discussing things related to the Pieta', so one could reasonably assume from this that these were specially-prepared instruments in use at the Pieta'. This would seem to indicate that "violins in Tromba Marina" likely implies more than just technique--the instruments themselves were peculiar in some way. Of course, as we've seen, this description fits the general role of the real Tromba Marina as well. Given that the context is the Pieta, a musical home/school for "foundling" girls, the presence of a real Tromba Marina or two wouldn't surprise.

Fire up the Benevolent Time Machine (BTM), I'm going back to 1740s Venice to have a look in Vivaldi's instrument closet.... (don't wait dinner... and if I don't return, well, I've probably found a charming companion at the Pieta'... maybe I can get a job emptying the trash... :-) )...

Eric

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## RSW

Eric (et al), one imagines talented young girls playing Vivaldi's latest creations... it appears that the virtuosi were more like mature middle aged women who were the actual performers. There is some recent research being done on the names behind the curtain at the Pietà, and some were players of multiple instruments and composers as well. What is curious is that the last name given to these orphens reflects their speciality (di Soprano, di Violino, etc.). The score for the concerto asks for violins to be played 'alla tromba marina', whether this means altering the violin or even using some other instrument is open for argument but I don't remember ever seeing anything that could fit the bill. Maybe the part should be played entirely in natural harmonics :Smile: .

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## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"... the last name given to these orphans reflects there speciality (di Soprano, di Violino, etc.)"

Indeed! The earliest composition(s) for a contrabass string instrument proper are two 17th-century sonatas (one in A minor, one in F major, if I am not mistaken), attributed to Giovannino _del Violone_. 

As my last name means Hatter's Son _Mad_ one's?   I can definitely relate...

_Saluti a tutti, molti, tutti quanti!_

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## etbarbaric

Hi Richard,

I guess I personally lean toward violins that were modified "alla Tromba Marina", rather than being merely played as such. (I don't want to contemplate sixteenth note natural harmonics, thank you!)

In addition to Talbot's mention of a 1790s inventory that lists these violini, I found in my notes another tantilizing bit that mentions the Tromba in relation to the Pieta'. Apparently a colletion of receipts from the Pieta's luthiers (Matteo Sellas among them) has been uncovered. You can read about it here. The article also gives background on the multiple Ospedeli and how they operated... as well as some rather illuminating quotes that give some idea of both the performances and the "girls".

The receipts often list the performers names as well, "per la Signora Cattina", "per la Signora Bernadina", etc. Anna Maria was one of the best known (famous) and one of the mandolino players (among other instruments). From the list, she clearly went through alot of strings ("Per la Signora Anna Maria, un maso Cantini"). There was also an "Anna Maria Seconda"... The list starts with "Per la Signora Mariane, un masso Cantini di mandolin[o]"! There is also a list item for "Consadura a un Mandolin[o] di ebano avorio" which I take to be an ebony and ivory mandolino!

Anyway, on 9 Decembre 1745 (after Vivaldi's death, BTW) there is a listing for "Consadura di un Violin a tromba".

Its also interesting that they were buying strings for the lutes and theorbos right through the 1760s! And mandolinos were clearly in fairly constant use at the Pieta after 1745.

Eric

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## RSW

Eric, excellent... thanks for the link, I had read about White's research and this gives a lot of colorful information. They sure went through strings! I was only joking about playing the violin part in harmonics, but one can imitate this sort of sound with a bow speed and less pressure, perhaps playing closer to the bridge? I'll check Talbot (if I can find my copy around this mess I use for a study)... Regardless, we are still at want for a historical recreation of this gem, n'est pas? Fortunately the music is good enough on its own to withstand even Leonard Bernstein's NYPhil rendition and remain enjoyable.

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## etbarbaric

Yes, if only Ms White could turn up an actual "violin a[lla] tromba [marina]". Its fun to speculate, of course... might such a thing have had a brass bridge that somehow vibrated against the top?

I think, perhaps, the interesting tie-in with the real Tromba Marina is the nature of the Pieta' itself. The other name for the Tromba Marina was the "Nun's fiddle", as it was used in convents, at least in part because it was thought inappropriate for nuns to be blasting away on real trumpets. Does anyone know of any examples of female trumpeters in the 18th century?

The analog of the Pieta' is, of course, that it was populated and run by girls and women. It makes rather perfect sense that they might have a similar "substitute" for a real trumpet for all their fanfare requirements. Talbot's careful quote ("violins that do duty as trumpets marine") seems to indicate that they are not actual Trombas, but something that fills that role at the Pieta'.

At least we know what the mandolinos are! :-)

Eric

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## etbarbaric

... and from my experience with gut strings on mandolinos, it seems entirely appropriate to buy them "en masse". This business of shelling out big bucks for individual strings carefully wrapped in little envelopes is nuts! Buying by the pound clearly makes more sense. :-)

Eric

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## RSW

The tromba marina was also found frequently in monasteries, so it probably has less to do with gender and more to do with economics, good trumpeters were rare and very well paid back then! By the way, I'm on to my third month with a .38mm g-1 on the little mandolino (Strad copy by Dan)! It's about due to pop.

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## Eugene

> By the way, I'm on to my third month with a .38mm g-1 on the little mandolino (Strad copy by Dan)! It's about due to pop.


This defies physical probability! Who made the string?

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## etbarbaric

I too have had indivual gut mandolino strings last a very long time... as much as over six months in one case, even with fairly consistent use. And, of course, I've had some last only a few hours! Its really a matter of how the interior bonds (collagen, I think) happen to have come together when the string was made. Mimo Perufo posits that the degree of polishing also has some bearing as well (less polishing tending to break fewer fibers in the gut) others disagree. Some strings are just better than others... and it seems to be impossible to tell from the outside.

I've even taken a single longer length of gut string, cutting two sequential pieces from it to make up a course... only to have one piece last a few days with the other lasting a few months.

I have found that varnished gut strings, though a little more expensive, last quite well for mandolino chanterelles.

Eric

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