# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  $1.9 million Strad stolen while violinist checked her iPhone

## mrmando

Story here. Makes those Loar thieves look like pikers! Unfortunately for this thief, a stolen Strad will be next to impossible to fence.

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## John Flynn

> Story here. Makes those Loar thieves look like pikers! Unfortunately for this thief, a stolen Strad will be next to impossible to fence.


I think you're right if it were a common thief, committing a crime of opportunity. But I think a common thief would have gone for her purse. That would have provided instant cash without the hassle of fencing the goods. And an average violin would not bring all that much through a fence. I think it more likely she was hit by a pro, who knew who she was and what she had in that case. A pro would know how to fence the Strad., probably to a private collector. He may have had the deal set up before he did the deed.

Although I'm currently reading "The Complete Sherlock Holmes," so I may just be caught up in the moment!

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## mrmando

John, how do you know she wasn't _wearing_ her purse? How do you know she _had_ a purse? And finally, what exactly is the difference between a common thief and a pro?

My wife and I have been targeted by pickpockets several times in Europe (none entirely successful, thank goodness), so I can tell you from experience several things about pickpocketing:

(1) It's a crime of opportunity that doesn't necessarily involve clearheaded economic calculations. In fact, sometimes kids do it to entertain themselves, just because they can. Sure, cash is best (ask my father-in-law, who lost $2K worth of Benjamins on the Rome Metro), but pickpockets will take anything. In Paris a kid took the French-English dictionary out of my wife's backpack. (He might've had an opportunity to go for her camera if we'd stayed on the train longer, but the fact that the backpack did not contain cash did not dissuade him in the least. Lucky for us, he dropped the dictionary on the escalator on the way out of the station.) Also in Paris, someone came up behind me in Montmartre where I was listening to a street accordionist playing Bach's "O Sacred Head" and cut the strap on a shoulder bag I had just bought. There was nothing in the bag but a Rick Steves travel book, but the pickpocket didn't stop to make calculations before trying to take it. He didn't manage to quite cut all the way through the strap, so all he succeeded in doing was ruining my bag. The most ridiculous example happened on a vaporetto in Venice ... I was carrying my son in a backpack child carrier, and some snotnosed teenager came up and removed my son's sandal just for the heck of it. He got a good chewing out in Italian from a fellow passenger, and I recovered the sandal where he dropped it. 

I know enough about traveling to carry my cash and passport in a pouch under my clothing. If you know what to look for, you can tell that I'm carrying such a pouch, and yet no pickpocket has ever gone for it. They'll generally want to go for easier targets. That's because ... 

(2) To most pickpockets, staying undetected is more important than the actual value or nature of the goods. If you have a coat, purse or bag, the pickpocket will go for that rather than trying to reach into your pants pocket. If you have several items on you, the pickpocket will go for the one to which you are paying the least attention at the moment. If your violin is on the floor and your purse is hanging around your neck, I can grab the violin without being noticed, whereas with the purse I might have to cut the strap or yank it away from you, either of which carries a higher risk of detection.

I think it highly, _highly_ unlikely that this was a targeted crime. If I'm a professional thief and you offer me, say, half a million to steal a $1.9 million Strad, I will go directly to Curtin & Alf, or someone else who makes good Strad copies, buy a copy for $40K, bring it to you, keep the change, and disappear. And there you are with what you think is a stolen Strad. You sure as heck can't tell anybody that you have one. Which means you can't seek any advice from any expert on how to protect your investment. You can't get it insured. And you can't have it authenticated. How many private collectors do you suppose there are who would take that big of a risk?

Another story attributes the theft to "three opportunist thieves." It happened in a train station, which is ground zero for your garden-variety pickpocket, and while Ms. Kym was with a friend. Seems to me a superthief, if there is such a thing, would wait and choose a lower-risk time and place with fewer potential witnesses.

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## NoNickel

> If I'm a professional thief and you offer me, say, half a million to steal a $1.9 million Strad, I will go directly to Curtin & Alf, or someone else who makes good Strad copies, buy a copy for $40K, bring it to you, keep the change, and disappear. And there you are with what you think is a stolen Strad. You sure as heck can't tell anybody that you have one. Which means you can't seek any advice from any expert on how to protect your investment. You can't get it insured. And you can't have it authenticated.


Well, well, well ... someone has an devious mind.  Where were you on the day in question MrMando?  :Wink:

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## mrmando

Not in London! And I can prove it.

Same deal with a Loar. Anyone hires me to steal one, I'll bring 'em a Cliff Sargent copy and let them try to figure it out.

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## John Flynn

You may be right, but I'm not convinced to change my thought on it. I saw on a website that there are 11 Strads that have been stolen since WWII which have not re-surfaced. I also read that the most common ploy in high-end art theft is called "artnapping." The thief steals the piece with the idea of negotiating with the insurance company for the safe return of the item. The reward publicized up front is something like the L15,000, currently offered for the Strad in this story, but when the item is recovered, the actual reward is never disclosed. More often it is more on the order of $100,000 or more.

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## Bill Snyder

All I know is that the lesson here is obvious - get rid of your iphones.  :Mandosmiley:

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Timbofood

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## Ed Goist

If I were in possession of a $1.9Mil instrument I'd have its case handcuffed to my wrist at all times. It would either be:
A. In my hands while I was playing it, or
B. In its locked case which would be in turn handcuffed to my wrist (like those Halliburton cases in the spy movies), or
C. Locked away in a safe.

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## mrmando

The fact that those 11 stolen Strads haven't resurfaced doesn't mean they are in the hands of nefarious collectors somewhere. An opportunist thief in Los Angeles boosted a Strad cello in 2004, then threw it in a dumpster, where a woman just happened to find it ... which makes you wonder how many stolen Strads were simply ditched by the thieves and ended up in landfills.

The circumstances of your average high-end art theft are completely unlike those of this stolen-Strad incident. If you are going to steal a valuable painting, you find out where it is kept and then figure out a way to take it without being caught. You don't hang around a sandwich shop and wait for the owner of a Rembrandt to leave it unattended on the floor.

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## journeybear

I don't think that's what John was suggesting, but rather that the thief had been following the violin waiting for the right moment to strike and saw an opportunity present itself in the sandwich shop. Without knowing all the particulars all one can do is engage in conjecture, and who's to say which theory is most valid?

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## mrmando

John is suggesting that his theory, of this being a professional grab for a private collector, is "more likely" than its being a simple crime of opportunity. I have no personal stake in which theory is correct. But John's theory focuses in on a single fact (the price of the violin) as if it were the most important factor in the case. It ignores other evidence about the circumstances of the crime and makes assumptions about the behavior of pickpockets that can be contradicted via simple observation. John's assertion that his theory is "more likely" carries a substantial burden of proof, which has yet to be met.

And I think Sherlock Holmes would say the same ...

P.S. London has more than 10,000 security cameras, and Euston Station has a bunch, according to the CNN report on this story. This traffic cam, for example, is just a couple of blocks from the scene of the crime. We'll see if any footage turns up.

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## Knucklehead

My guess is she was followed by criminals that knew exactly what she had and it's value. You would like to think that these iconic instruments are so well known that no one would ever think of buying a stolen instrument. You hear about valuables, artwork, jewels, instruments, etc turning up after many decades, that were stashed away in some obsessive collector's vaults.

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## mrmando

> You hear about valuables, artwork, jewels, instruments, etc turning up after many decades, that were stashed away in some obsessive collector's vaults.


Please provide the details about where or when any stolen Stradivarius turned up after many decades in some obsessive collector's vaults. 

Two of the more notable Strad thefts of the 20th century involve the Gibson Strad (now played by Joshua Bell) and the Duke of Alcantara Strad. Both of these were missing for a number of years; when they finally turned up, they were in the hands of _ordinary people_ who happened upon them by luck and who had _never sought to establish their value._ I.e., not obsessive collectors!

Even if the thief did follow Ms. Kym for some distance, with the specific intent of taking the violin, that doesn't prove that he/she knew it was a Strad! 

The theory that is the most likely to be valid is the one that takes into account all of the available evidence and doesn't make things up.

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## journeybear

Conjecture, speculation, theorizing - too much guesswork, unverifiable, and easily misleading. But when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

As much as I would like to think there would be enough security cameras at a train station to capture the theft, and then the thief, real life isn't as neat as an episode of CSI. Still, I hope this and/or other methods are successful in recovering the violin.

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## mrmando

You know, it occurs to me that if your job is to take a specific violin from a specific violinist, then possibly the stupidest conceivable M.O. is to follow her around all day until she sets it down and gets distracted. You'd have to figure that if she does neglect such a valuable violin, it will be for only a very short time. Which means you'd need to be pretty close in order to grab it. But of course, the closer you get and the longer you stay close, the greater the likelihood that she'll notice you. 

My own London pickpocket experience serves to illustrate the point. I was walking through Leicester Square with my wife, carrying a shoulder bag on my right hip with the strap over my left shoulder. The bag was zipped but the flap was not buckled. The pickpocket was walking backward at my 5 o'clock, close enough to reach out and attempt to unzip the bag. I felt the slightest tug and turned my head -- and away he ran. I still had the bag and everything in it. How long do you suppose he was that close to me before I knew he was there? Not more than a minute or two. He had a very narrow window of opportunity. Since then, of course, I try to remember to buckle the bag as well as zipping it.

Ms. Kim may have afforded her thief a longer-than-average window of opportunity by getting wrapped up in her iPhone, computer, and cheese-and-pickle sandwich. But no thief could have predicted she was going to do that.

Further reading reveals that the theft happened on Nov. 29. The London transit police kept mum about the story until now. In one report, a police spokesman says they have leads in the case. In several other reports, there's a reference to a gang of three opportunistic criminals. The _Guardian_ reporter positively sneers at the idea that the violin was targeted for theft by a collector.  

So you tell me: Why are the police speaking up now after keeping silent for a week, and how do they know the number of thieves?

P.S. I have to agree with journeybear on "CSI" shows. Invariably the criminals they catch are dumb enough to commit their crimes in places equipped with really fancy, ultra high-resolution security cameras ... so that an investigator can zoom in on a blurry image captured in low light from 90 feet away, and identify the suspect by the gap between his front teeth. God help the CSIs if someone breaks into a place that hasn't upgraded its cameras for a few years.

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## barney 59

Back when Martin was making ABS cases that had MARTIN in giant block letters it seemed that when an instrument was stolen from where there were several possibilities(a bands instruments in a van or in a tent at a festival) that the one that said Martin was most likely the stolen item even though it maybe wasn't the best instrument in the group. The other most likely stolen was the one closest to the door. This would suggest that it was a crime of opportunity rather than someone stalking for a particular instrument. I would bet that the violin in question was in a very nice case. The woman carrying an instrument worth nearly 2 mil was probably dressed well, all indicating to a potential thief that there was some value there. If this was stolen as a chance encounter the thief now has a problem, getting rid of it after the theft made the paper. It seems that any place that has valuable items moving in and out  thieves abound. Around here it's been bicycle thieves around coffee shops. Someone rolls in on their $5000 road bike and figures that their just going to step inside for a moment to get a quick cup of joe besides they can keep an eye on it through the window --and that's the last they see of their bike. Once some years back on a construction job in not a good neighborhood we thought it would be wise to get one of those giant Job Boxes, the  kind that you have to carry with 2x4's like a sedan chair with 4 guys. We put 4 90lb. bags of cement in the bottom of the box and filled it with our tools,lots of heavy tools, and locked the box up before we went to lunch. When we got back the whole thing was gone!

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## billkilpatrick

nils tells a story about a band he was with who - instead of using a van with the band's name all over it, inviting thieves to have a look when unattended - drove around in a van marked "ira's diaper service."  no problem ...

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## Bertram Henze

With an instrument that valuable, it should pay off to move it in an armored car between concert venues. Plus, the player needs a cheap copy to practise with.

If that seems absurd, imagine waking 20 times every night with a start in your hotel room, wondering if your million dollar instrument is still there. Values are a burden. Music should not be.

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## Tom Wright

In my understanding, from experience and reporting, most of these high-value violins are recovered after thefts. Perhaps some special angel unit follows distracted musicians around. Alexander Schneider famously left a Strad in a NY taxi, and he has lots of company in that maneuver. A close friend had a Vuillaume stolen, took charge by calling all the pawnshops in Northern Virginia, had it back in a few days.

My principal left the orchestra's Gofriller viola on the sidewalk---it walked away in a couple of minutes, but was recovered within a month. Yo-Yo Ma forgot his cello once, I think. It happens, but as has been pointed out, it's hard to sell one after you steal it. Unlike flat art, which some evil billionaire might wish to hoard, you can't get much pleasure from just looking at it or showing it to your friends.

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## Rroyd

Well, the Strad cello mentioned earlier in this thread was rescued after the craftsman that it had been taken to for conversion into a CD storage rack realized that this was not your ordinary cello, and helped to get the instrument back into appropriate hands.  (It was on loan by its owners.  I wonder if they chose to place it the hands of a different performer, with the hopes that it would not be left on someone's porch again.)   I don't think, however, that a violin would hold enough CDs for that to be its fate.

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## CES

Martin, ya gotta think like the Godfather, man...stiffin' 'em on a 2 million Strad hoping they won't notice you gave 'em a copy will ALWAYS end up in a concrete shoes shopping spree...happens in the movies all the time  :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing:

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## Ed Goist

Probably just a crime of opportunity where the thief didn't know what he landed...But who knows?

What if the thief turns out to be a one-time, impulsive fellow down on his luck who just happened to be in the right place at the right time when he was overwhelmed by a thieving impulse...Afterward, being wracked with guilt, but afraid of prosecution, he gives the violin to his 9 year old daughter (now living in a secluded part of Wales, with her mother) who has always seemed to be musically inclined, but never had an instrument. 

The daughter takes to this wonderful sounding instrument immediately and it becomes her lifelong artistic companion and the joy of her existence. Throughout her simple, well-lived, generous life people repetitively comment how wonderful her old violin sounds, to which she always replies that she's so happy her grandfather brought it home to England from Germany after the Second World War...

At a ripe old age she passes it on to one of her Grandsons who also seems musically inclined...The Strad lives on in happy anonymity...beautifully touching the lives of many ordinary folk...

That's what I hope happens.

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## journeybear

> ...happens in the movies all the time ...


And as we all know, as it has been so noted many times before in these fora, life is just like the movies. I mean, these movies don't just spring fully formed from a will o' the wisp by a writer's fevered imagination. They are based on real life, and reflect the way things actually happen.  :Wink: 

Ok, sarcasm aside, I like Matt's scenario. Throw in a mention of the original owner being adequately compensated, and we'll have a happy Hollywood ending. Perhaps even better, the owner's great-grandson becomes a world-renowned pianist who one day is contracted to accompany the thief's great-granddaughter. During the rehearsals a mutual attraction sparks, with the typical on-and-off fireworks. Then on the eve of the concert, the pianist recognizes a certain unmistakable mark on the violin, an anecdotal identifier passed down through the generations of that family. Realizing that fate has brought them together, he proposes on stage immediately following the performance (hailed by critics and all else in attendance as the greatest ever rendition of the piece, of course), she joyfully accepts, and they live happily ever after, bringing the most beautiful music to all the world for the rest of their lives. That would be a hit movie and possibly an Oscar winner.

Of course a TV series is spun off, that lives in perpetuity in syndication, and inspires a Broadway musical.

I don't mean to offend anyone, least of all the victim, and of course the happiest ending would simply be the return of the violin unharmed to its owner, but since none of us is in any postion to aid in that effort, might as well conjure up some other happy ending. I guess.  :Smile:

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## mrmando

> I would bet that the violin in question was in a very nice case.


Nope, a "nondescript black case" according to several news reports. 



> The woman carrying an instrument worth nearly 2 mil was probably dressed well, all indicating to a potential thief that there was some value there.


I can't speak for how she was dressed. Of course, you could infer that she had disposable income from the fact that she had just dropped £2.95 on a cheese-and-pickle in a posh sandwich shop. Some folks who commented on the story at British newspaper Web sites seemed to think that was a bigger ripoff than the theft of the violin. 



> Well, the Strad cello mentioned earlier in this thread was rescued after the craftsman that it had been taken to for conversion into a CD storage rack realized that this was not your ordinary cello, and helped to get the instrument back into appropriate hands.


The craftsman was the boyfriend of the woman who found the cello. Neither of them knew what they had until they encountered a news report about the theft.



> Martin, ya gotta think like the Godfather, man...stiffin' 'em on a 2 million Strad hoping they won't notice you gave 'em a copy will ALWAYS end up in a concrete shoes shopping spree.


That's why I won't do the job for less than it takes to change my identity and move to Aruba.

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## John Kinn

> You may be right, but I'm not convinced to change my thought on it. I saw on a website that there are 11 Strads that have been stolen since WWII which have not re-surfaced. I also read that the most common ploy in high-end art theft is called "artnapping." The thief steals the piece with the idea of negotiating with the insurance company for the safe return of the item. The reward publicized up front is something like the L15,000, currently offered for the Strad in this story, but when the item is recovered, the actual reward is never disclosed. More often it is more on the order of $100,000 or more.


I think one of the eleven stolen Strads is in my possesion. I've looked inside it, and the label reads "Stradivarius Cremona". Maybe I'll put it in the classifieds.

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## Capt. E

I heard the story of a graduate student here at the University of Texas who had on loan a very nice old violin worth perhaps 200K and owned by the University. An opportunistic thief grabbed it from him when he was distracted and was gone before the student noticed. Took just seconds. The thief didn't begin to know what he had and tried to sell it at a local music store; some story about how it was his grandfather's and he needed $500 for it.  The store owner knew he was looking at something very nice and worth much more than $500 (heck, the case was probably worth that much or more). The store owner had someone distract the guy while he went in the back to call the police... you can guess the rest. 
So, this Strad may have been taken by someone who really has no idea. Hope it turns up as easily.

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## mandroid

BBC News mentioned, Ms. Kim  stopping for a sandwich, figures Cnet would put a Tech spin on it.

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## chris scott

I am surprised that something that valuable would not have some kind of "chip" inbedded in it.

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## Ed Goist

> I am surprised that something that valuable would not have some kind of "chip" inbedded in it.


Great point...At least in the case. And the person in possession should have an emergency phone number which would immediately begin a track when dialed.

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## JEStanek

Active RFID/tracking chips need to be large enough to broadcast and have big bateries.  The things in dogs and what not are passive RFIDs that are energized by a reader at close proximity.  The desire, a small locator chip, technology isn't here yet.

Jamie

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## mrmando

> I am surprised that something that valuable would not have some kind of "chip" inbedded in it.


Hm ... maybe because Stradivari predates any kind of electronics? 

I suppose one might put some kind of tracking device on the _case,_ which could be useful as long as the case & violin are not separated. It would have to something fancier than a mere "chip." The type of RFID tag you can have surgically inserted in your cat does not emit a signal for remote detection ... you have to use a scanner in the immediate presence of the cat to detect it.

I have researched the various commercially available "remote child locator" devices, and the affordable ones all have plenty of consumer reviews saying that they don't work as advertised.

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## mrmando

One thing that might be feasible is a pair of RFIDs that trigger an alarm if they are moved a certain distance from each other ... say, 30 feet or more. One in the case and one in your pocket. If your pocket beeps unexpectedly, you know the case is on the move.

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## Bertram Henze

> I am surprised that something that valuable would not have some kind of "chip" inbedded in it.


Yep, like in rental cars, with a GPS receiver and an integrated mobile phone. Could be made the size of a pack of cigarettes, I guess, including battery. At last something to fill all that useless space inside the violin  :Laughing: 

Other approach: when put into playing position, a knife blade will snap out of the chin rest, unless the player types in the correct PIN first. There'd have to be a big yellow warning sticker...

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## Michael Lewis

Martin, I think you could have a successful career as a mystery writer.

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## journeybear

> Other approach: when put into playing position, a knife blade will snap out of the chin rest, unless the player types in the correct PIN first. There'd have to be a big yellow warning sticker...


Or not ...  :Grin:  

Though you are assuming the thief would be the next person to play it, which is probably not likely. More likely to sell to an intermediary (dealer, fence), who would then sell it to someone who would be a violinist, and may or may not be aware of the instrument's recent history. No, any deterrent apparatus should be activated to "get" the _perpetrator_, or, really, prevent the theft in the first place. But we are just indulging in a bit of whimsy.  :Whistling:

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## journeybear

Someone noted that the article that appeared in Cnet focused on the tech aspects. I noticed that too, and thought it odd how the writer concentrated more on the violinist's distraction than the actual theft. Is that really the moral of this story? I can't entirely disagree. People seem inordinately fond of iphones and similar hand-held devices, and distraction is rampant. Many times as I walk or bike around I see a lot of people walking along the sidewalk or driving their cars (and even bikes) with something pressed to their ears or their noses buried in something hand-held, nearly oblivious to their surroundings. I almost got run over a few days ago by someone who was so focused on whatever he was texting that he hadn't noticed the light had changed. He may have been keeping half an eye on the car ahead of him but didn't see the light, and certainly didn't see me. Until I yelled at him. Then it was like, "Wha'?" I have to wonder - what is so fascinating on the other end of that telecommunicative connection? Ever see a couple walking side by side, each on a cell phone to someone else? This stuff gets pretty rude, if you ask me. Of course, if you want to ask me, you'll have to call my land line and leave a message.  :Laughing:

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## Knucklehead

"Please provide the details about where or when any stolen Stradivarius turned up after many decades in some obsessive collector's vaults. "

Two of the more notable Strad thefts of the 20th century involve the Gibson Strad (now played by Joshua Bell) and the Duke of Alcantara Strad. Both of these were missing for a number of years; when they finally turned up, they were in the hands of _ordinary people_ who happened upon them by luck and who had _never sought to establish their value._ I.e., not obsessive collectors!


That Huberman Strad's value was well known, the theft was published in most of the Eastern papers. it was stolen in the late '30s from his dressing room at Carnegie Hall by Julian Altman, who was a local hack. He knew the value of the instrument to the extent that he confessed to it's theft on his deathbed. The insurance company that carried the policy paid out $30K, which was a helluva lot of money in the pre-war Depression era 1930s. ( Over $500,000++. in current day value)
While he (Julian Altman)  may not have been a collector, he certainly didn't amount to much in his career, and obsessively kept this stolen violin for 51 years.

In the same vein, Ed King, one of the original members of Lynyrd Skynyrd, had his prized '59 Les Paul Sunburst stolen at gunpoint back in the '80s. A coffee table reference book on late '50s Les Pauls was authored by Yasuhiko Iwanade and the stolen guitar was prominently pictured and referenced. Ed happened to come across the book at a Guitar show and recognized his Les Paul. It turns out it was his stolen guitar and it ended up with the famous guitar collector Dirk Ziff, who had bought it thru a couple of dealers years before. King hired lawyers, and finally got his favorite guitar back. Ziff apparently has over 100 1950s Les Pauls in his collection, so it's questionable whether he missed one.

There are many cases of artwork, jewelry, coins, valuable collectables, and musical instruments that have turned up in collections. Harry Winston was a family friend, and he used to tell my parents stories about some of his prized acquisitions and how they were "looted" many years ago, and hidden away, only to become available thru auction houses.  There's an ongoing effort to return or compensate the owners and museums of artwork that was seized by the Third Reich for Hitler and Goering's collections. Much of it was stored away in Bavaria's salt mines. Not to malign collectors, but there are those who would rather have a valuable, and hide it away from the public, than seek some immediate financial ransom.

From The Financialcouncel.com article by R.L. Moshman:
An exact count is never certain because Strads are constantly going missing or turning up all over the world. Daniel Pearl, the reporter from The Wall Street Journal who was slain in Pakistan, covered several of these Stradivarius capers in an October 17, 1994 article. The 1735-"Ex-Zimbalist" Stradivarius, which had been missing for 30 years, had been recently photographed in Japan…but is still missing. In 1951, amidst the Korean war, a genuine Stradivarius turned up in the wall of a South Korean home. "The Colossus," a unique Stradivarius violin of slightly larger size, 
was stolen in Rome in 1998..... Makes you wonder what it was doing in Japan and why the photograph, same thing as the one hidden in a wall in the South Korean home.

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## mrmando

> That Huberman Strad's value was well known, the theft was published in most of the Eastern papers. it was stolen in the late '30s from his dressing room at Carnegie Hall by Julian Altman, who was a local hack. He knew the value of the instrument to the extent that he confessed to it's theft on his deathbed.


Not quite. Rather, Altman's deathbed confession included the claim that he had bought the violin for $100 in a chance encounter, presumably with the thief.

But it's at least probable that the 1936 theft of the Gibson Strad was a targeted theft: (a) it had been stolen from Huberman once before; (b) it was, as you say, taken from his Carnegie Hall dressing room while he was downstairs performing on a different violin. Quite a different set of circumstances than snatching a violin from a sandwich shop. And if it's true that Altman bought the Gibson for $100, that would just point up the difficulty of fencing a stolen Strad for anything approaching its true value, even in 1936. 

AFAIK the Strad discovered in Korea in 1951 had not been documented before then ... so to say it had been stolen would be to presume things we don't know. It's equally presumptuous to say that the Colossus or any other missing Strad is in a collector's vault. Again, we don't know.

And of course, as with the Les Paul, the presence of a stolen instrument in a collection does not prove that the collector orchestrated the theft.

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## Knucklehead

Then why would Altman bother to "confess" to buying a $100.violin? If you do some research, the $100. figure was part of a story concocted by Altman and his wife so that she could negotiate the return of the Huberman violin to the insurance company without being accused of the theft. It was convenient and face saving to claim he bought it for a $100. from an unknown person. The wife supposedly received around $280K for her "trouble" upon surrendering the violin.

I know quite a few collectors, who speak about  somewhat iconic instruments that have ended up in collections outside the USA, whose owners, and I assume "trophy" collectors are somewhat nefarious characters, at least the instruments are not played publicly.

I'm not a fan of "collectors", for obvious reasons, it's apparent you feel different. There are still something like a dozen Strads that have disappeared, and then there's the balance of those viols that were made during the creator's lifetime that have not surfaced. Then there' are many other instruments from that period that are equally valuable. To say that all these instruments are in the hands of people that are using them daily professionally or otherwise, would be somewhat naive.

I did not insinuate, that Ed King's Les Paul presence in someones collection was some sort of conspiracy. It's a well known fact that the the owner of the collection is a very private person, and very few have seen his collection. Supposedly one has to don special clothing to handle any of his instruments. I am not familiar as to whether he is a musician or not. Granted some have musical background and play their instruments on a limited basis. I don't think this is the case here.

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## mrmando

> Then why would Altman bother to "confess" to buying a $100.violin?


You can believe Altman's story, or not, but you don't know for certain what happened.



> I know quite a few collectors, who speak about somewhat iconic instruments that have ended up in collections outside the USA, whose owners, and I assume "trophy" collectors are somewhat nefarious characters, at least the instruments are not played publicly.


It's one thing to dislike collectors who keep instruments tucked away, and another to insinuate that they obtained those instruments by stealing them.



> To say that all these instruments are in the hands of people that are using them daily professionally or otherwise, would be somewhat naive.


Good thing I never said that, then! It is likely that some of those instruments were destroyed or discarded by the thieves, as was the Strad cello in Los Angeles, and will never be recovered. 



> I did not insinuate, that Ed King's Les Paul presence in someones collection was some sort of conspiracy.


Yes you did, although you may not have meant to. You propounded a conspiracy theory about the theft of the Strad in London, and when I challenged you, you gave the example of the Les Paul in defense of your original theory.

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## Knucklehead

How is making a comment that IMO the theft of the London Strad was an inside job turn into a conspiracy theory, there are people who feel the same as I do. It's very possible that this theft was not a snatch and grab, but a planned event. Make of it what you will. 

My initial comment was not a statement of fact involving the stolen Strad, it was an analogy involving collectable items ending up in collectors' vaults.  Believe  me, people who own '59 Les Paul feel they are every bit as desirable as a violin from the Golden Era. 


Evidently you know more about everything than anyone else on this forum, so my hats off to you. Good Luck!

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## mrmando

> How is making a comment that IMO the theft of the London Strad was an inside job turn into a conspiracy theory


Your theory would seem to entail at least two individuals—a thief and a collector—who cooperate in some capacity to obtain a violin by theft. When two or more criminals work together to commit a crime, that's a conspiracy. Therefore, your theory is a conspiracy theory by simple definition.



> Evidently you know more about everything than anyone else on this forum, so my hats off to you. Good Luck!


Rather, since your theory concerning the London theft is at odds with both the available evidence and the opinion of the investigators, it is you who must somehow have information about the case that no one else has.

P.S. Concerning the Gibson Strad, there's a lengthy article at Joshua Bell's Web site, with much more detail than I've seen anywhere else, written by one James Pegolotti. In it he reveals that Altman's widow, Marcelle Hall, told two different stories in her testimony during a court case to settle Altman's estate: the "bought it for $100" story and the "stole it myself" story. Pegolotti concludes: 



> Will it ever be known how Altman acquired the Gibson Stradivarius and when Hall came to know of it? It's very unlikely. The truth is buried now in Claremont, New Hampshire and in Bethel, Connecticut with the two major players of the story.


I don't dispute that Altman knew the value of the violin ... that much seems clear from Pegolotti's story ... but if Pegolotti couldn't reach a definite conclusion about who stole it, then neither can any of us. Furthermore, what's evident from this article is that Altman was neither a "hack" nor a collector: he had been a good enough violinist to play as a member of the National Symphony, and he didn't keep the Gibson hidden away, but performed with it openly.

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## journeybear

All right, you two! You're never going to agree. It seems you have somehow landed in The Argument Clinic Sketch:

Man: I came here for a good argument.
Mr Vibrating: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
Man: An argument isn't just contradiction.
Mr Vibrating: It can be.
Man: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.
Man: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
Mr Vibrating: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
Man: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
Mr Vibrating: Yes it is!
Man: No it isn't!
Man: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.

And so on ...

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## John Flynn

Very good, journeybear! Very appropos for this thread.

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## Ray(T)

They seem to be getting desperate - the insurers had a half page advertisement in "The Times" yesterday seeking information and offering the reward.

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## barney 59

I guy I know here in California who is a small scale dealer and trader of fretted instruments who purchased recently a 1957 Les Paul and listed it on ebay with a starting bid of $17000. Back in Minnisota another man had a search on ebay that would notify him anytime some instrument was listed that was similar to the instruments that were stolen from him a decade earlier. When this particular Paul showed up he instantly recognized it as his and notified the police. My friend of course cooperated with the police and the guitar got back to it's rightful owner,which, turns out, is the insurance company that payed off when the guitar was originally stolen. Now,the dealer that got stung is trying to recoup some of his loses by going back through the chain of ownership and good luck to him. There isn't any title and registration that goes with these things, like for a car or boat and it would be very easy to end up with a stolen instrument. I have sold and traded or consigned instruments to some of the most,by reputation, reliable and respected dealers and there was never any requirement and non actually existed anyway(sometimes there is a receipt sometimes not and for the most part they are meaningless anyway) that I was the rightful owner. Had something in my possession turned out to have been stolen and it had been consigned to a music store it would then have taken on a new round of legitimacy-----"I bought it at (fill your favorite music store)". Come to think of it I traded an old Vega banjo and some cash to the guy who listed the Paul for a mandolin and there were no receipts,neither for the banjo in my possession or the mandolin in his. So maybe I shouldn't show up in public with this mandolin?

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## EdHanrahan

> BBC News mentioned, Ms. Kim stopping for a sandwich ...


I suspect that Ms. Kim asked for a ham sandwich but the thieves tried to talk her into roast beef w/ lettuce & tomato!

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## Ray(T)

Probably a good job it wasn't a cello! - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3728193.stm

One thing that nobody has mentioned is that there was also a violin bow in the case but that was only worth £62,000.

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## mandroid

take Martin's proximity separation detector devise, and add a Taser into the case , 
and maybe one of those ultra-violet dye marker spray  guns, 
to mark the perp,
 and there is an improved possibility of just deserts,  :Whistling: 
maybe justice. :Confused:

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## John Flynn

According to to the British Transport Police site, three people have been arrested in the theft, a John Maughan of "no fixed address" and two teenagers. The instrument is still missing. The focus of the search for the instrument is the "traveling community" in England an Ireland, which I believe means the so-called Irish Travelers. This does suggest the three worked as a team and it was a planned, professional theft, although I will be interested to learn whether the three thieves targeted the musician and knew what she had, or it was a target of opportunity.

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## mrmando

Link to the story here.

Does it suggest the three worked as a team? Yes. 

Does it suggest a "planned professional theft"? I don't see how. The story's pretty bare on details, so please explain how it suggests a planned professional theft. 

If the thieves sold it to a group of travelers (that's the new politically correct term for people who used to be called "tinkers" in Ireland), then what do you suppose they got for it? Maybe a hundred quid if they were lucky? Stealing a priceless instrument and having no better fence for it than travelers -- that doesn't suggest much of a plan. And according to the article, the thieves were nabbed in part because they were captured on CCTV footage -- that doesn't suggest professionalism.

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## journeybear

Not much in the way of details. Perhaps more will come out at the trial. I don't recall seeing that half hour window of opportunity before. That is a perishingly long time to be inattentive to your prized instrument!

The mention of the travelers is almost funny. I've heard they used to get blamed for almost every unexplainable crime or misdeed. I know they're not the same as the gypsies, but I still get a wry smile imagining this violin being played around a campfire somewhere, bringing a good bit of joy to all there. Not the perfect ending to this story, perhaps, but a charming one nonetheless.  :Wink:

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## MikeEdgerton

I think it was a crime of opportunity.

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## John Flynn

I suggest that having three thieves, instead of one, suggests some planning. It suggests some teamwork. Also, while I don't suggest that all Travelers are thieves, it is well documented that a subset of them are, and the ones that are, are organized into teams and they very good at what they do. They even have a network for fencing property. 

However, the fact that the cameras saw them suggests to me that they did NOT know how valuable the instrument was. Why? If they were stealing an average violin, the police would not have launched as thorough a manhunt based on the camera footage. If they laid low for a while, or moved to another hunting-ground, they would have gotten away with it, despite being on camera. So that suggests they did not target this musician.

But we don't have all the facts yet, so all of us just dabbling in conjecture at this point.

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## Jill McAuley

> Not much in the way of details. Perhaps more will come out at the trial. I don't recall seeing that half hour window of opportunity before. That is a perishingly long time to be inattentive to your prized instrument!
> 
> The mention of the travelers is almost funny. I've heard they used to get blamed for almost every unexplainable crime or misdeed. I know they're not the same as the gypsies, but I still get a wry smile imagining this violin being played around a campfire somewhere, bringing a good bit of joy to all there. Not the perfect ending to this story, perhaps, but a charming one nonetheless.


Romantic thought there journeybear, but if it was indeed fenced to travelers I doubt it's being played around a campfire anywhere -more likely it's no longer even in the UK by now. And I would reckon that if it is in the traveling community then the folks who have it know exactly what they've got, given the amount of press this story has received. 

Cheers,
Jill

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## Ed Goist

Boy, this story has novel/movie written all over it...And the plot just keeps getting juicier.
Okay, here's my casting picks for the film:
Zhang Ziyi as violinist Min-Jin Kym  
Colin Farrell as 'Traveler' & Thief John Michael Maughan   
Jude Law as Detective Inspector Andy Rose  
Alan Rickman as 'The Traveler Patriarch' and the mastermind behind the theft...
Oh, and Alfred Molina as Antonio Stradivari, seen in flashbacks focusing on a sub-plot about the making of the stolen violin.
Lot's of potential here!

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## mrmando

Ah yes. Well, "planned" in the sense of "let's hang out at Euston Station and see what we can boost," and "professional" in the sense of "this is what I do for a living," to be sure.

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## John Flynn

> Boy, this story has novel/movie written all over it...And the plot just keeps getting juicier.
> Okay, here's my casting picks for the film:
> Zhang Ziyi as violinist Min-Jin Kym  
> Colin Farrell as 'Traveler' & Thief John Michael Maughan   
> Jude Law as Detective Inspector Andy Rose  
> Alan Rickman as 'The Traveler Patriarch' and the mastermind behind the theft...
> Oh, and Alfred Molina as Antonio Stradivari, seen in flashbacks focusing on a sub-plot about the making of the stolen violin.
> Lot's of potential here!


I nominate Martin Stillion as the "Omniscient Narrator!"  :Cool:

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## SternART

> I know they're not the same as the gypsies, but I still get a wry smile imagining this violin being played around a campfire somewhere, bringing a good bit of joy to all there. Not the perfect ending to this story, perhaps, but a charming one nonetheless.


Ever see the movie The Red Violin?  Worth renting........

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## delsbrother

> Colin Farrell as 'Traveler' & Thief John Michael Maughan


Ehm, shouldn't Brad Pitt reprise his role?

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## journeybear

> Romantic thought there journeybear, but if it was indeed fenced to travelers I doubt it's being played around a campfire anywhere -more likely it's no longer even in the UK by now. And I would reckon that if it is in the traveling community then the folks who have it know exactly what they've got, given the amount of press this story has received.


Yes, this was quite the flight of fancy. I was thinking more along the lines of it being boosted by travelers and then staying within the community, being played by grandda or uncle around the campfire, hiding in plain sight, as it were. And no doubt they would know what they had, and that it couldn't be sold, until the heat died down (and even then ... ). But meanwhile, it sure would make a dandy present!  :Wink:

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## Jill McAuley

> Yes, this was quite the flight of fancy. I was thinking more along the lines of it being boosted by travelers and then staying within the community, being played by grandda or uncle around the campfire, hiding in plain sight, as it were. And no doubt they would know what they had, and that it couldn't be sold, until the heat died down (and even then ... ). But meanwhile, it sure would make a dandy present!


Lot of traveler halting sites near my place back home - don't tend to see a lot of campfires, but there does be a fair amount of satellite dishes in view!

Cheers,
Jill

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## journeybear

Too much Hollywood influence, I guess. LOL!  :Laughing:  Happy Christmas!  :Mandosmiley: 

Be that as it may, I may start writing a screenplay.  :Smile:

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## barney 59

I would think the Travelers have a well developed fencing operation already in place. They are after all professionals. If the people who are on camera decide to take the hit for the community the violin might be gone for good or they could negotiate with the insurance company ,get a walk and get a nice bonus for their efforts to boot. The insurance co. now that they are aware that the "gypsies" have it must be a little concerned that it could disappear forever and that they are looking at a substantial payout. There used to be quite a few Travelers around when I was a kid, usually trying to sell us inferior paving for the driveway or trying to sell reroof the house scams. After a visit from them it was considered wise by my elders to lock the doors at night.

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## Don Christy

> I think it highly, highly unlikely that this was a targeted crime. If I'm a professional thief and you offer me, say, half a million to steal a $1.9 million Strad, I will go directly to Curtin & Alf, or someone else who makes good Strad copies, buy a copy for $40K, bring it to you, keep the change, and disappear. And there you are with what you think is a stolen Strad. You sure as heck can't tell anybody that you have one. Which means you can't seek any advice from any expert on how to protect your investment. You can't get it insured. And you can't have it authenticated. How many private collectors do you suppose there are who would take that big of a risk?


I generally agree w/ MrMando re likely crime of opportunity. But if it was a targeted crime, there's a flaw in your copy scheme. If it's a targeted theft, there NEEDS to be a high profile theft. If the theft isn't reported, then the "private collector" will definitely have you in concrete shoes.

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## Ed Goist

> I would think the Travelers have a well developed fencing operation already in place. They are after all professionals. ...snip...


Oh yea...*Don't mess with Alan Rickman!* (see post # 56)

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## ColdBeerGoCubs

I'm still amazed that someone would be that careless with an instrument of that magnitude. But after spending a couple hours in the big shopping district around here the other night I guess something should never surprise me.

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## Ed Goist

> I'm still amazed that someone would be that careless with an instrument of that magnitude. But after spending a couple hours in the big shopping district around here the other night I guess something should never surprise me.


Agreed...If I had an instrument worth more than $10K I'd probably handcuff to myself everywhere I went. There would only be three statuses for such an instrument in my possession: Secured in my domicile; in its case, handcuffed to me; and being played by me...end of list.

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## barney 59

Group of three --someone watching out,someone creates a distraction  and the quickest doing a snatch and grab. The thief is a 100 feet away disappearing into the crowd so fast that even if you notice it right away they are already gone. If you give pursuit someone is likely to be positioned to block you. Then, of course, there is the problem that might come up if you actually did catch them and attempt to apprehend the thief or forcefully get your thing back. The fact is they are in a position to just take whatever you have on you off of you at will. The fact that they prefer to "liberate" your possessions quietly and under the radar is an added bonus for both parties in the event.

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## mrmando

> If the theft isn't reported, then the "private collector" will definitely have you in concrete shoes.


Well, in the present case the theft was hushed up for a week by the transit police. If I have a COD arrangement with the buyer, a week gives me ample time to get out of the country and change my identity before the buyer suspects something.

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## delsbrother

> Oh yea...*Don't mess with Alan Rickman!* (see post # 56)


If I was writing the script with your cast I would look for a twist in the fourth act involving Zhang Ziyi..

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## mandroid

+1 for cases with shoulder straps, so you can use both hands without setting the case down.

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## mrmando

Quick grabs are easily prevented. When traveling in Europe, the wife and have used, at various times, a cable lock, bungee cords, or even a simple carabiner to secure luggage on trains, in stations, or in other public places. Any way of attaching the strap to a stationary object will remove the thief's ability to grab and go. Ms. Kym might well have prevented the theft of her Strad simply by putting her chair leg through the shoulder strap on the case.

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## mrmando

A few details came out at trial & sentencing of the thieves back in March. 

It was a crime of opportunity; the three men who took the violin said they thought they were grabbing a laptop. They took the violin to an Internet cafe the next day to look up what they had, and tried to sell it on the spot to someone there for 100 quid. They claim the violin was later stolen from them in Tottenham. 

I don't necessarily believe the thieves' claim that they thought it was a laptop, nor that it was stolen from them later, but the part about the Internet cafe was apparently corroborated in court.

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## barney 59

> I'm still amazed that someone would be that careless with an instrument of that magnitude. But after spending a couple hours in the big shopping district around here the other night I guess something should never surprise me.


I dunno, people lose their kids all the time! Crowded places are really distracting and those snatch thieves are pretty good at their trade. Try taking a trip on an Indian train, I got to the point of wearing mirrored sunglasses day and night so no one could tell if I was looking or not, worked pretty good too!

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## journeybear

I had been wondering what happened with this story. Funny to see that if we had hung in with the thread just a few more days we"d have seen the thieves got caught. Nice to see how fast this case came to court and was decided. It seems the wheels of justice turn much more quickly there than here. I don't buy much of their story either. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn their flat was "burglarized" by an associate.  :Wink:

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## mrmando

Well, the missing Strad is still at large, so we haven't heard the end of the tale yet. I sure hope these jokers didn't stuff the violin in a dustbin somewhere.

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## mrmando

Missing Strad recovered after three years: 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime...t-8737440.html

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## Tobin

> “We are looking forward to the outcome of our experts’ assessment on the condition of the instrument so we can then liaise with Ms Kym with regards to purchasing back the Stradivari.”


What the???  Did I read that correctly?  She has to BUY it back?

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## Darryl Wolfe

> What the???  Did I read that correctly?  She has to BUY it back?


She was likely paid insurance...which means the insurance company will own it

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## houseworker

> What the???  Did I read that correctly?  She has to BUY it back?


She's had an insurance payout on the violin, so she'll need to buy it back from the insurance company.  All standard practice.

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## mrmando

I visited the scene of this crime today. There should be a plaque or something. 

Pret a Manger is just outside Euston Station itself, across a courtyard in a building with three other shops, or thereabouts. 

Min Kym is the author of a new autobiography, _Gone,_ which talks about how the theft affected her along with other aspects of her life story: https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...rodigy-passion

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## Spruce

> If I were in possession of a $1.9Mil instrument...


$1.9Mil is actually quite cheap for a decent Strad these days?

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JimY

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## mrmando

> $1.9Mil is actually quite cheap for a decent Strad these days?


That was my first thought upon coming back to this thread after a few years.

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## Jeff Mando

For me, what makes these stories so interesting is the value of the item being carried around and used without any particular concern other than having insurance -- no armed guards, Brinks truck, Secret Service, GPS, etc.......,

Of course, the same could be said of women's wedding rings, especially older women who have worn the same ring for 50-60 years -- more than likely without any knowledge of its current value.

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## mrmando

I just got back from London, and there are people carrying violin cases everywhere you look. It's a lot more common sight than in the U.S. Just dumb luck that this particular case happened to have a Strad in it. 

Of course, we also discussed the more recent theft of Frank Almond's Strad, which differs in that he actually was targeted because he had a Strad, and that there was a GPS tracker in the case, although not in the violin itself. But even in that case, the thief had no real concept of what he was going to do with a Strad once he had obtained it.

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## mrmando

Well, it's going to cost me some overdue fees at the library, but I finished reading Min Kym's book today, which finally tells her side of the tale. It's actually quite a good read. 

Long story, but she wasn't able to buy back the Strad, although at the end of the book she's starting to settle down with an Amati and get back to performing. 

Certain aspects of the press coverage just weren't accurate, according to Kym, but you'll have to read the book to find out why.

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## MikeEdgerton

Any truth to the story she had an Android phone and not an iPhone?  :Cool:

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Jeff Mando

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## jesserules

> Any truth to the story she had an Android phone and not an iPhone?


oooh, I can see the TV ad campaign right now ...

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## mrmando

> oooh, I can see the TV ad campaign right now ...


"So captivating, you won't notice a Strad being stolen!" Something like that? 

She doesn't say anything about her phone, but she does claim that she ordered a meatball sandwich, not cheese and pickle. Which makes a world of difference.

Seriously, in the book she says she didn't give interviews about the the theft when it happened, so there's a certain amount of conjecture in the way it was reported in the news. We shouldn't assume we know what went down until we have read the book.

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jesserules

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## jesserules

> "So captivating, you won't notice a Strad being stolen!" Something like that? 
> 
> .


Yeah, going for kind of a Mentos vibe - whacky cartoon thieves making off with first a violin, then a double bass, finally a piano ... all while the owner stands there absorbed in the amazing features of their new BRAND NAME HERE phone ...

The book sounds interesting, will check it out.

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## mrmando

If you don't have time for Kym's book, it turns out that she was interviewed for the "Case Notes" podcast on ClassicFM: 
https://www.blogtalkradio.com/dax-gl...n-stradivarius

It's very interesting (at least to me) to hear Kym discussing the theft. Perhaps it goes without saying that she frames it much differently than the newspapers did at the time. She makes a couple of oblique references to the boyfriend who was supposed to be keeping his eye on the violin for a few minutes in the sandwich shop ... but one gets the sense that she'd prefer to talk about him as little as possible.

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## Ranald

If people play instruments, they carry them around. A young woman musician, who'd been awarded a year's loan of a priceless violin, said on the radio that she covered its case with "Hello Kitty" and similar stickers, so that if someone found it, they'd assume that it was a school kid's violin, not worth much. She added that if she was going to play it, she had to get used to transporting it around town. I tend to keep an eye on my things when I'm out in the world. A great many people around me don't, and I'm less than perfect about this habit -- I'm not likely to take my instruments to the washroom with me. Every year, the Toronto Transit Commission auctions off unclaimed violins and guitars found on buses and subway trains, and never claimed. By the way, as others have said, all the speculation here might inspire a good novel, but then Mandolin Cafe might demand a share of the royalties.

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## j4music

[QUOTE=mrmando;186351.  She makes a couple of oblique references to the boyfriend who was supposed to be keeping his eye on the violin for a few minutes in the sandwich shop ... but one gets the sense that she'd prefer to talk about him as little as possible.[/QUOTE

It's been a while since I read the book - very sad story but highly recommended.  My recollection is that she blamed him for the loss and the incident ended their relationship.  Basically, she supported her family since she was a very young child and her sense of identity was heavily connected to the Strad.  The loss was devastating.  She accepted the insurance payout to be practical, but by the time the Strad was recovered, the market had passed her pocket book by and she was never able to recover it.

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