# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  Don Julin's beat-up Nugget for sale

## sblock

The MS classifieds are now showing Don Julin's 1979 Nugget F5 up for sale, for the asking price of $18,500.  The picture is  *here* .

Interestingly, it looks like Mike Kemnitzer may have inlayed "The Gibson" on the headstock, which is covered by some black tape in the ad. That would be considered a bad idea by today's standards, but back in 1979, it was an homage to Gibson, and done fairly widely. Would you keep the black tape on if you bought the mandolin?

But yow, it sure looks terribly beat-up!  Is this what folks really mean by "honest play wear," I wonder? (then what would _dishonest_ play wear look like, I also wonder...)

And look at where the worst of that wear is concentrated! * If this mandolin had been equipped with a pickguard and an armrest in the first place, it would look immensely better.* And probably retain more value, by thousands of dollars. 

This photo is the best argument I have seen yet for using a pickguard and armrest on your mandolin, in fact. Gee, I wonder how bad the back of it looks?  Maybe it would also make a case for using a ToneGard to protect it? 

I am not sure why folks don't use these things: they can make a big difference.  I suppose they can't get used to not posting their right-hand fingers on the top. Or maybe they're going for that Bill-Monroe-I-don't-care-whip-it-like-a-mule look?   :Wink:

----------

Bernie Daniel

----------


## Jeff Mando

I think it is more a case of some guys polish their shoes daily and keep them looking like new and some guys don't -- they just wear them.....to each his own.

----------

j. condino

----------


## dhergert

Like you, I really like both a pickguard and armrest, plus I also like a toneguard.  

I come from a banjo playing background.  Banjos loose about 10% of their volume when you plant fingers on the head, which is definitely noticeable, so I use pickguards as finger-rests on all of my main-playing banjos.  And all of my banjos have armrests for comfort and to keep my arm from also deadening the heads.  So it was easy for me to also be open-minded to this on mandolins.

When my 2002 F9 came to me about 4-years ago, it was pretty dug up by pick and fingernail contact around the treble F-hole.  Honest damage, yes, but damage none-the-less.  I cleaned it up as well as possible and then covered it up with a nice ebony pickguard which will remain on this mandolin as long as I own it.  I've also added a nice ebony armrest and a toneguard for tone/volume as well as to protect the instrument.  The ebony pickguard and armrest look really good with this early F9's vintage brown/natural finish, the un-dotted ebony fingerboard and relatively un-adorned headstock.

And believe it or not, I have just ordered these same add-ons for my $199 MK -- not so much for instrument preservation on the MK, but because now I really play better with the arm and wrist geometry that these add-on parts provide.  And that's not to mention the tone and volume advantage of not touching the top, sides and back of the mandolin so it can vibrate freely.

I do have a number of friends, pro mandolin players, who sort of shun the idea of pickguards and armrests.  So there may be a cultural thing going on there, or it may just be these people like their arm and wrist geometry just as it is without these add-ons.  Most of these friends do accept the toneguard concept though.

For me, there are three advantages of these three devices:

1) tone and volume improvement from allowing the instrument to vibrate freely
2) protection of the instrument from a lot of the wear and tear of playing
3) elevated arm and wrist geometry which for me improves the pick attack.

I think most people can get into #1 and #2 of these, but #3 may be the reason some people don't get these devices.

-- Don

----------

Bernie Daniel

----------


## William Smith

> I think it is more a case of some guys polish their shoes daily and keep them looking like new and some guys don't -- they just wear them.....to each his own.


Right on brother! It doesn't bother me one bit what something looke like as long as it has the sound. I'd say a bit pricey at 18.5

----------


## Eric C.

I use an armrest but no pick guard. My KM-950 has simlar wear on the treble side. I personally like the appearance of it.

----------


## sblock

> I use an armrest but no pick guard. My KM-950 has simlar wear on the treble side. I personally like the appearance of it.


Well, as the saying goes, there's no accounting for taste (_de gustibus non est disputandum_)!  You're entitled to like whatever you darn well choose.

But there can be no question that the luthiers who build mandolins _go to considerable lengths to make their instruments look really good_, choosing tonewoods with elegant grain, installing pretty binding or purfling, adding beautiful pearl or abalone inlays, investing huge amounts of time and effort in the finish, picking tuners with nicely engraved plates and buttons, choosing elegant tailpieces, and so on.  Let us not forget that the shape of the scroll and headstock of the F5 model were inspired by aesthetic reasons, not musical ones.  And the prettier mandolins, which involve more work to produce, command higher prices, all else being equal:  look at the price difference between otherwise similar A5 and F5 models. And some of you folks who say you're OK with getting down to splinters in the top will insist on playing an F5 model -- because it looks nicer!  There's some kind of a disconnect there, in the reasoning.  

It strikes me as *downright hypocritical* to praise all these design features, but then proceed to rip up the instrument, to the point of destroying the protection provided by the finish and actually splintering -- or even _wearing a hole clean through_! -- the tonewood top.  Especially when this abuse is totally unnecessary, because the wear can be prevented with simple remedies that in no way detract from the sound (pickguards and armrests).  Plus, at some point, the excessive wear does begin to affect the sound and playability of the instrument. That's my opinion, anyway, and you're certainly entitled to yours.

Another point to add is that for instruments so desirable that they becomes collectors' items (like 1922-24 Lloyd Loar Gibson F5s), _condition counts for a great deal_.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

Billy Packard

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

Yeah, Glen Hansard and Willie Nelson shouldn't be allowed near any guitar...

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

Trey Young

----------


## Mandoplumb

Agree with sblock, never could understand " distressed" instrument. Buy a new instrument that looks beat up and well used? Speed necks another abuse of a good instrument in my opinion. The mandolin I'm playing now and have for 16 years is showing some wear on the neck so I guess it's " distressed" but it's no longer new and I've  protected the finish where I could. Had Ward Elliot make and install a pick guard years ago that is now distressed but it's a $100 piece on a &2000+ instrument that can be replaced or refinished easily. I'm not fanatical about the mandolin, if it I'd used it will show wear but I take as much care as I can and still enjoy playing it. I knew a guitar player that had a D-18 he had played for 25 years that had the finish wore off where his arm laid across the lower bout. He bought a new D-35 which he was determined to not let that happen to, so he got in the habit of playing with his arm heald away from the guitar. We used to kid him about playing guitar and not touch it nowhere. He owned that guitar about 20 years before he died and the finish was intack on the lower bout. Just saying one can be too particular

----------


## Astro

I love my armrest and my pick guard. I even feel they help me play better.

Then again, I also love my speed neck and for the same reason.

We're all a little different and that's OK. 

I've learned to live with other's being wrong.  :Smile:

----------


## Eric C.

> I love my armrest and my pick guard. I even feel they help me play better.
> 
> Then again, I also love my speed neck and for the same reason.
> 
> We're all a little different and that's OK. 
> 
> I've learned to live with other's being wrong.


Man all that time and effort spent on the finish of the neck...  :Whistling:

----------


## Jeff Mando

People who don't like speed necks have never played one....

----------

Astro, 

DataNick, 

George R. Lane, 

NewKid, 

sblock, 

Spruce

----------


## dhergert

Might be worth mentioning, there are other ways to protect the instrument from some of the arm wear besides an arm-rest.  

Many of the folks in my playing circles wear half a sock over the lower arm where it would contact the instrument that is being played at the time.  

In my circle, that started with me actually, early in my banjo playing years.  Like many people, I get a contact dermatitis from nickel plating -- and most banjo armrests have nickel plating (even under gold plating).  One thing I had a lot of were nice black socks that had holes in the foot-area, so I cut the foot area off and tossed it, and the remaining ankle area fits nicely over the lower arm where contact with the instrument occurs.  (And yes, the socks were washed first, ok?  :Laughing:  )

My wife likes the same thing for playing guitar, so she doesn't sweat over the instrument where her arm rests on it.  I've mentioned getting an armrest for her guitars, but she prefers the sock.

Even though I use an armrest on my mandolins, unless I have long sleeves on, I still wear the sock on my arm.  It just feels more comfortable.

-- Don

----------


## Eric C.

> Well, as the saying goes, there's no accounting for taste (_de gustibus non est disputandum_)!  You're entitled to like whatever you darn well choose.
> 
> But there can be no question that the luthiers who build mandolins _go to considerable lengths to make their instruments look really good_, choosing tonewoods with elegant grain, installing pretty binding or purfling, adding beautiful pearl or abalone inlays, investing huge amounts of time and effort in the finish, picking tuners with nicely engraved plates and buttons, choosing elegant tailpieces, and so on.  Let us not forget that the shape of the scroll and headstock of the F5 model were inspired by aesthetic reasons, not musical ones.  And the prettier mandolins, which involve more work to produce, command higher prices, all else being equal:  look at the price difference between otherwise similar A5 and F5 models. And some of you folks who say you're OK with getting down to splinters in the top will insist on playing an F5 model -- because it looks nicer!  There's some kind of a disconnect there, in the reasoning.  
> 
> It strikes me as *downright hypocritical* to praise all these design features, but then proceed to rip up the instrument, to the point of destroying the protection provided by the finish and actually splintering -- or even _wearing a hole clean through_! -- the tonewood top.  Especially when this abuse is totally unnecessary, because the wear can be prevented with simple remedies that in no way detract from the sound (pickguards and armrests).  Plus, at some point, the excessive wear does begin to affect the sound and playability of the instrument. That's my opinion, anyway, and you're certainly entitled to yours.
> 
> Another point to add is that for instruments so desirable that they becomes collectors' items (like 1922-24 Lloyd Loar Gibson F5s), _condition counts for a great deal_.


I've never been called a hypocrite before, thanks! For what it's worth (in my defense, since I feel this crazy urge to defend my opinion, due to being called hypocritical) I've never once given any thought to "elegant grain, pretty binding/purflin, inlays, etc.

As far as "abuse", no I don't spend much time thinking about how clean or pristine the condition of my mandolin is in, but I do get it serviced a couple times  year so it can keep putting a few extra bucks in my pocket a week.

I think the Nugget in question is beautiful.

----------


## pops1

My mandolin has a fair amount of playing wear, not as much as the Nugget, but then it is a varnish finish which is much easier damaged than a lacquer finish. I have showed my mandolin, it is a gigging instrument, to the builder and he said that he doesn't think most people play the instruments he builds, they look so new. I can tell you play this and I build them to play. He was happy looking at my mandolin distressed from playing.

I use an arm rest, pick guard and tone guard by the way, still gets distressed.

----------


## Rich Benson

I just played a great sounding used Ellis F in Austin that has terrible pickwear, very rough to the touch. An absolute crime! I wouldn't buy it like that. And, I actually just had Tom Ellis install a pickguard on my Pava Pro. Looks awesome.

----------

Ivan Kelsall

----------


## Astro

> Man all that time and effort spent on the finish of the neck...


Yeah and it was a beautiful custom burst finish. It took me 3 years to get the nerve to do it. Boy am I glad I did.

The fancy neck finish didn't help me play better. In fact, the opposite. No One can see the finish there unless its not being played and you turn it over and get close. The speed neck still looks good as the burst is still there.

And now it plays better. I guess you could say someone spends a lot of time building the florida and yet mine is scooped out. Because it helps me play better. I have no regrets for the extra step of the speed neck now at all although I did have lots of back and forth trepidation prior. If I ever have a mando custom built for me I will pass on the distressed look BUT it will come with a speed neck, scooped florida, and abbreviated floating pick guard. Also an armrest.

----------


## Tom C

This thread is ridiculous. It is what it is. Don't tell people how they should play or take care of their instruments. The guy bought it to play for probably $1000 and play it he did for almost 40 years.

----------

ccravens, 

Charlieshafer, 

Eric C., 

Frankdolin, 

George R. Lane, 

j. condino, 

Jeff Mando, 

Kris N, 

NewKid, 

onassis

----------


## Mark Wilson

Sounds pretty good to me in the YT video.  I have watched all his instructional and Billy Strings videos and never noticed him playing it

----------

Astro

----------


## Eric C.

> Yeah and it was a beautiful custom burst finish. It took me 3 years to get the nerve to do it. Boy am I glad I did.
> 
> The fancy neck finish didn't help me play better. In fact, the opposite. No One can see the finish there unless its not being played and you turn it over and get close. The speed neck still looks good as the burst is still there.
> 
> And now it plays better. I guess you could say someone spends a lot of time building the florida and yet mine is scooped out. Because it helps me play better. I have no regrets for the extra step of the speed neck now at all although I did have lots of back and forth trepidation prior. If I ever have a mando custom built for me I will pass on the distressed look BUT it will come with a speed neck, scooped florida, and abbreviated floating pick guard. Also an armrest.


Oh I agree 100%! I prefer to do my own distressing (I speednecked (sp?) my mandolin.)

----------


## sblock

> This thread is ridiculous. It is what it is. Don't tell people how they should play or take care of their instruments. The guy bought it to play for probably $1000 and play it he did for almost 40 years.


Yow, lighten up!  You're not reading this thread very carefully, I'm afraid. No one ever told anyone how they are required to play or care for their instruments, and certainly not me! It's YOUR mandolin, and you can go ahead and smash it on the stage Pete Townshend-style, for all I care.  I have also pointed out that this comes down to a matter of personal taste, and there is no arguing with that. I just wondered why some people seem willing to destroy the tops of their beautiful instruments, when there are such easy ways to prevent it. And I wonder why some folks go out of their way to buy a fancy instrument (like an F5) with beautiful appointments, but then proceed to hack away at it, often removing a perfectly good pickguard to do it!  That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and there seems to be a disconnect in the reasoning. But hey, it might make sense to you. NO ONE is telling you that you have to protect your nice instrument.  Bill Monroe never showed a whole lot of respect for his Loar, did he? But, unlike his fabulous music and playing, that is hardly one of his most admirable characteristics, now, is it?  Just 'cuz Big Mon was willing to take a pen-knife to his headstock out of anger and spite is hardly a reason to emulate him.  We should seek to discover the best in the man, not the worst, I believe.

----------

Billy Packard

----------


## dhergert

Some people might not be happy with me for having added a pickguard to my otherwise original F9.

Some people might complain that my armrest may leave marks on the finish of the top where it is mounted.

Some people might complain that my toneguard may leave marks on the finish of the sides where it is mounted.

These are objectionable to some people, just as to some people normal playing wear-and-tear are objectionable. 

To me, these add-on parts are worth having installed, I enjoy the sound and playing advantages they provide, and I prefer having them on the instrument to protect from to wear-and-tear.

Different strokes...

-- Don

----------

George R. Lane, 

Kris N

----------


## Mandoplumb

I have player a speed neck, it's just that I'm not capable of playing so fast I soften the finish and make it gummy therefore I see no difference. To me a finish neck looks better so I'll leave it finished even if I'm the only one that can see it. After all I'm the one that paid for it.

----------


## pops1

I play in humid hot environments in the summer. I also have a varnish finish that gets sticky, most of the finish on my neck is worn off from playing, but a speed neck would help a lot in those times. With a lacquer finish it's not as sticky in those conditions, so if you have lacquer on your neck you most likely won't need the speed neck.

----------


## Jim Garber

Unless you folks have knowledge that I don't you may be assuming that Don bought this Nugget brand new. Perhaps he did buy it decades ago but no assumption that he did all or even any of the damage. Then again, someone did at some point. Just saying...

I myself am in the middle of this "raging debate." The few instrument of which i am the original owner are in fairly good shape with little wear on them but I am not the most careful of bangs and bops of these. They generally get played. The worse of them are the flattop guitars because I have a heavy right hand and tend to wear out the edges of the soundholes. Perhaps i can change my technique but it is (pardon the pun) deeply ingrained at this point besides it does the job for rhythm section in old time and other genres I play. 

Actually, come to think of it, I don't own any new flattops anyway.

----------


## CWRoyds

Actually, I like it with the extreme evidence of joyful playing. Doesn't bother me a bit. To me it just shows how much it was played, which is a plus for me. I use a tonegard and an armrest, but I can't stand having a pick guard on a mandolin it makes me claustrophobic and limits how you can attack the e string. Personally I would buy a mandolin like this in a second if it had the sound I wanted. For me the great thing about getting an instrument that is not in perfect mint condition is that you don't have to stress about keeping in that condition. You can just get on it and play as hard as you wish.

----------

DataNick

----------


## sblock

There's an enormous difference, in my mind anyway, between deliberately removing the varnish on the back of the neck -- to create a speed neck -- and haphazardly tearing up the top wood near the fingerboard through pickstrokes or finger-posting -- to create a worn, bald spot (or even a hole all the way through).  The first is done purposefully, in a carefully controlled way, and looks fine (besides, violins also have the varnish removed in this area).  The second is done by accident, and it's neither tidy nor well controlled.  To my mind, it also looks terrible. Holes worn clean through the top may even require repair when things go too far (like on Jody Stecher's mandolin), and large areas of exposed, rough wood generally detract from the resale price of the more valuable instruments. 

Willie Nelson's beat-up guitar would be pretty much worthless if it had belonged to some obscure player, instead of Willie. WSM's beat-up Loar would have been at the low end of the spectrum of Gibson F5s had it, too, belonged to an obscure player -- but then again, maybe no one would be clamoring for Loars!  

Many of us don't like to lend our instruments to certain folks who don't play them very respectfully, and manage to leave serious dents and scratches, or buckle rashes, after only a short time playing.  There are stories about folks (I seem to recall that Charlie Derrington was one, but the experts will correct me) who lent their Loar to WSM, in fact, only to regret it after the mandolin was returned with some serious abuse showing.

----------


## pops1

I had a very good guitar/mandolin player come into my shop with a hole in the top of his guitar from playing. He makes his living playing and this guitar was his road guitar for many years. He ask if I could fix it, when I said I could fit in some new wood he said" leave the hole". He had worn it in the top and wanted to keep it, but make it more stable, so that's what I did. He has a hole in his mandolin too.

----------


## Mandobar

Don bought that mandolin at Gruhns several years back.  A friend of mine played it while it was still there.  He said once you play it, you forget about what it looks like, and that's what it's all about, now isn't?  The sound and the feel.

----------

Charlieshafer, 

dang, 

DataNick, 

doc holiday, 

j. condino, 

Jimmy Kittle

----------


## mrmando

Yeah, definitely not owned by Don since new. Heard him play it in a small room and had a good look at it myself. Fantastic instrument; it was the right tool for the duo with Billy, but since that page has turned, Don is evidently moving on.

----------

j. condino

----------


## Steve Roberts

> I think it is more a case of some guys polish their shoes daily and keep them looking like new and some guys don't -- they just wear them.....to each his own.


Sorry, but if I paid $18,500 for a pair of shoes, I'd want them polished.

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

A polished pair will cost you $25,000...

----------

DataNick, 

Denman John

----------


## mrmando

One could spend the odd $6,500 on a tin of shoe polish.

----------


## barry

I don't consider wear, accumulated from using a tool for its' intended purpose, to be "damage".

----------

Atlanta Mando Mike, 

ccravens, 

DataNick, 

Jim Roberts, 

Kris N, 

Mandobar, 

sgarrity

----------


## onassis

> I don't consider wear, accumulated from using a tool for its' intended purpose, to be "damage".


My thoughts exactly.  But then, I like the aesthetics of a DMM.  I appreciate an instrument that looks like it's had an interesting life.

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

Sadly, most stringed instruments have taken on more importance for some solely for their resale value, not the making of music. That's never been what the Mandolin Cafe is all about. Mandolins are for making music. Their external condition has little if anything to do with the music. The life of a true professional road musician is not pretty. Instruments get damaged. Personally we believe the world is better off with more musicians making music and fewer collectors only concerned with the condition for resale.

----------

almeriastrings, 

Baron Collins-Hill, 

ccravens, 

Charlieshafer, 

craigw, 

DataNick, 

Denman John, 

doc holiday, 

Don Grieser, 

Eric C., 

George R. Lane, 

j. condino, 

Jim Roberts, 

Jimmy Kittle, 

Kris N, 

Mark Gunter, 

oliverkollar, 

Rob Meyer, 

sgarrity, 

Steve VandeWater, 

TEvans, 

Tommcgtx

----------


## Baron Collins-Hill

Using your tools hard, no matter the trade, is part of making good art. Collections aren't tools, they are museum pieces and have been deprived their intended use. That's not to say you _have_ to beat up your tools to make good art, but take a look at the way those at the top of their field use their tools, and you'll start to see a correlation. Just my two cents. 

On a personal level, I've never played a pristine instrument that I have liked better than it's well used, well worn twin.

----------

doc holiday, 

Jim Roberts, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## AlanN

I picked on it at IBMA. Dandy.


Armguard - nein
toneguard - nein
pickguard - nein
Right Guard - jawohl!

----------

DataNick, 

doc holiday

----------


## dorenac

> Sadly, most stringed instruments have taken on more importance for some solely for their resale value, not the making of music. That's never been what the Mandolin Cafe is all about. Mandolins are for making music. Their external condition has little if anything to do with the music. The life of a true professional road musician is not pretty. Instruments get damaged. Personally we believe the world is better off with more musicians making music and fewer collectors only concerned with the condition for resale.


Thanks for saying this.  Assuming no damage to structural integrity then enjoy the mojo of this instrument.  It was recently refretted by the maker.  I am assuming he wasn't turned off doing routine maintenance on his creation.  Take a look at Mike Marshall's Loar sometime.

----------


## mtucker

I like Don's old Nugget a lot ... hop on it and enjoy the ride...no muss no fuss! Watch out for the curves though..  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## derbex

It's only problem is that its' too young -give it another century or so and the awful wear will be valuable patina that you would be  a criminal to remove or restore  :Smile:

----------


## dhergert

I appreciate this in thought, but for my personal instruments I don't agree completely.  

I am neither a collector nor do I expect to sell my instruments in my lifetime.  

I play them hard, but I do like them to look nice.  When I buy an instrument sound is first, but looks do matter also.

So with mandolins, I do add the easy things we've discussed here.  For between $200 and $350 and just a little bit of time and effort, we can add the pickguard, armrest and toneguard to a multi-thousand dollar instrument and keep it looking, playing and sounding nice.  These parts don't protect everything on the mandolin, but they do protect the contact areas.  

I can definitely understand the other side of this, but for me, this is what works.  The Nugget in question is far beyond me in price anyway, but if I were to buy it, I'd have a pickguard, armrest and tone guard on it before I began any serious performing with it.  I'd make no effort to repair, but the armrest and pickguard  would cover the biggest damage areas and would protect them from further damage.

-- Don




> Sadly, most stringed instruments have taken on more importance for some solely for their resale value, not the making of music. That's never been what the Mandolin Cafe is all about. Mandolins are for making music. Their external condition has little if anything to do with the music. The life of a true professional road musician is not pretty. Instruments get damaged. Personally we believe the world is better off with more musicians making music and fewer collectors only concerned with the condition for resale.

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

> I appreciate this in thought, but for my personal instruments I don't agree completely.  
> 
> I am neither a collector nor do I expect to sell my instruments in my lifetime.  
> 
> I play them hard, but I do like them to look nice.  When I buy an instrument sound is first, but looks do matter also.
> 
> So with mandolins, I do add the easy things we've discussed here.  For between $200 and $350 and just a little bit of time and effort, we can add the pickguard, armrest and toneguard to a multi-thousand dollar instrument and keep it looking, playing and sounding nice.  These parts don't protect everything on the mandolin, but they do protect the contact areas.  
> 
> I can definitely understand the other side of this, but for me, this is what works.  The Nugget in question is far beyond me in price anyway, but if I were to buy it, I'd have a pickguard, armrest and tone guard on it before I began any serious performing with it.  I'd make no effort to repair, but the armrest and pickguard  would cover the biggest damage areas and would protect them from further damage.
> ...


That's fair, but I've been played mandolin daily since 1978 and have never employed a pickguard, armrest or tone-gard, and I've made a hell of a lot of music since and continue to this day. My ultimate sin, that horrible $35 Blue Chip I bought 8 years ago and still use. Damn, could have bought 25 $5 picks instead. Played music last week, will this week. Barring I don't wake up a month from now I'll continue doing the same. Unnecessary tools for me personally. I guess if people just want to hoist opinions in public that's fine. Never saw the need to myself. Really don't care what people use to make their music or what it looks like. That's what the Mandolin Cafe was founded on.

Don's mandolin was pretty much beat when he bought it, the guy gigs almost daily, traveled several hundred thousand miles with Billy Strings and played every major festival pretty much in the U.S. in the past 4-5 years. He probably put a few dents in it. Guys that work like that are not weekend warrior musician.

It's a fantastic instrument I've personally played. When I listen to his music, I spend not a moment wondering about the condition. If condition is your thing, go for it. I care not on opinions of this matter other than to marvel how worked up some of you get with your opinions and criticism of others for doing what they wish with their own property. Carry on.

----------

doc holiday, 

George R. Lane, 

j. condino, 

Mandobar, 

Tommcgtx, 

Vernon Hughes

----------


## Tom Wright

I acknowledge Scott's point, but that would hold if wear was unavoidable. A few hundred years ago violins suffered wear under the chin, so chin rests became popular. Almost no one would play a violin without one now. Similarly, the upper bout tends to lose varnish from hand contact, so many players of stringed instruments add some contact-adhesive clear plastic to protect it.

The unavoidable wear on a violin now is mainly the fingerboard, which is regularly maintained by planing, and is replaceable, as well. It should be the same on a mandolin. The place you have to touch is the fingerboard, and the frets can be replaced. On all stringed instruments, some wear on the neck is expected, and violins usually have no varnish there, only a sealer.

Don Julin's mandolin has wear in exactly the places where it is completely preventable, so it is a shame to see. An armrest and a pickguard would have preserved the wood. I don't care about varnish, but when it goes, so does the wood.

----------


## Mandoplumb

I agree that the mandolin is the tool we use to make music, I agree that musician should have them to play more than collectors need them to look pretty and make them money. But if you look at the mandolin in question a $100 pick guard would have prevent 80% or more of the damage to the face of it. To me that is just taking care of your tools. If you was an excavator would you not service your dozer and change the oil occasionally? A craftsman should respect his tools. I know there are some "rock stars" that bash their guitars, and Ira Lovern was known to bash his mandolin if he couldn't get it in tune to suit him. I personally think less of them and their talant if they don't respect the tool of their trade.

Just saw the post before mine, he said about the same thing almost a double post sorry his was posted while I was typing

----------


## barry

> I agree that the mandolin is the tool we use to make music, I agree that musician should have them to play more than collectors need them to look pretty and make them money. But if you look at the mandolin in question a $100 pick guard would have prevent 80% or more of the damage to the face of it. To me that is just taking care of your tools. If you was an excavator would you not service your dozer and change the oil occasionally? A craftsman should respect his tools. I know there are some "rock stars" that bash their guitars, and Ira Lovern was known to bash his mandolin if he couldn't get it in tune to suit him. I personally think less of them and their talant if they don't respect the tool of their trade.
> 
> Just saw the post before mine, he said about the same thing almost a double post sorry his was posted while I was typing



With regard to that analogy, changing the strings and maintaining the setup and frets would be the equivilant of changing the oil.  I doubt the excavator would add a plastic guard to prevent scratches on the dozer blade.

----------


## Mandoplumb

> With regard to that analogy, changing the strings and maintaining the setup and frets would be the equivilant of changing the oil.  I doubt the excavator would add a plastic guard to prevent scratches on the dozer blade.


I would if $100 would protect my machine without any adverse effect.

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> With regard to that analogy, changing the strings and maintaining the setup and frets would be the equivilant of changing the oil.  I doubt the excavator would add a plastic guard to prevent scratches on the dozer blade.


Maybe not. I'll almost guarantee you though that any dozer you see with wide white walls will also be sporting curb-feelers.

----------


## Spruce

> A craftsman should respect his tools.

----------

Charlieshafer

----------


## Denman John

I've heard Don play this particular mandolin and it's a good one.  With that said, I'm a Nugget fan and love that end of the sound spectrum that Nuggets fill.  If I'm not mistaken, it was built in '79.  I don't think that all these accessories that we take for granted now were readily available back then.  The internet has allowed so many niche markets to flourish, and as consumers we now have so much more available to us than we did even 10 years ago.

The mandolin is what it is.  If you want a new/near min Nugget, you're looking around $25G.  If it has the sound you want, I think the price reflects the condition.  If I had the money and was in the market for a Nugget, I'd look very hard at this one.

----------

DataNick, 

Tom Sanderson

----------


## mtucker

some say this smothers episode was where things started going bad with pete's hearing...little respect those boys had for their gig kits... townsend gets lambasted pretty hard by the tnt in the kicker drum. entwistle's like 'please don't mess up my new vox! They sure made great music, all-time favorite band.

----------


## sgarrity

They're made to be played. Personally, I like pick guards because it's a guide for my right hand and I like the aesthetics of them. All the other aftermarket accessories I find much too cumbersome. On my top 100 things to worry about the wear and tear on someone else's instrument ranks around 999.... :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Ron McMillan

I would dearly love a sweet old Nugget, even one with a lot of honest play wear. But if I was going to spend that kind of money, I'd want one that said Nugget on the headstock.

----------


## Tom Wright

The mandolin Emory Lester was playing at the Mandolin Symposium had the thin clear vinyl applied directly to the top where normally a pickguard would go. It was too late to save the varnish-free area it protected (maybe from someone else---I didn't ask) but it would save the wood from collecting dirt and wearing more.

If a pickguard feels wrong it is still easy to protect the wood, with clear vinyl also being an option where an armrest would go.

----------


## George R. Lane

I think we have beat this subject as much as Don's Nugget.

----------

fredfrank, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## Jim Garber

FWIW some of my favorite mandolin players:

   

I know! Some of these folks have retired their workhorse instruments at least from touring. I agree with our guru Scott tho, "Mandolins are for making music." None of mine are pristine and I try and play them daily. If they get a scratch it happens.

----------

Baron Collins-Hill, 

DataNick, 

sgarrity

----------


## Larry Simonson

My take on it is that it doesn't make much sense to thin out a mandolin top made by such a highly respected and admired luthier as Mike Kemnitzer.

----------

Bernie Daniel

----------


## Jeff Mando

> One could spend the odd $6,500 on a tin of shoe polish.


I don't think it would cost that much to get it looking good again, I think a $2 tin of dark brown polish should cover most of the worn spots and save ya having to refinish it!  That or Old English!  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing: 

Just joking......... :Wink:

----------


## onassis

> marvel how worked up some of you get with your opinions and criticism of others for doing what they wish with their own property


Exactly

----------


## Buck

> I am not sure why folks don't use these things: they can make a big difference.


Pick guards don't bother me, so I don't take them off if they're on a mandolin, but I don't add them if they're not.

On the other hand, I loathe the look and feel of armrests and Tone-Guards, especially armrests.  I wouldn't use them if you paid me to.  It doesn't bother me terribly that other people think differently though.

----------


## Spruce

> "Mandolins are for making music."

----------

DataNick, 

RichieK, 

sgarrity

----------


## Br1ck

I bought my Silverangel for the tone. The fact that they are pre distressed to one degree or another is just part of the package. I love the look of older instruments, and the Silverangel is really well done. I was amazed to see pickguard mounting holes on an instrument that never had a pickguard. A bonus is not having to baby the mandolin. The play wear is most definitely  not honest.

----------


## Atlanta Mando Mike

I've never known a player to not buy the instrument that had the sound over aesthetics.  Shoot, if it has the sound, most don't let structural issues stop them.  Clarence White shot his guitar before Tony got hold of it.  When Tony got it, it was unplayable.  You get it or you don't.  I personally don't want a perfect mandolin, I like character and I don't  want to be worried about little things.

----------

bradlaird, 

Mark Gunter, 

RichieK

----------


## Steve Ostrander

Don's been around, the Ellis has been around. I don't see a problem.....

----------


## Jim Garber

> Don's been around, the Ellis has been around. I don't see a problem.....


What Ellis? Wasn't this a Nugget?

----------


## Astro

> What Ellis? Wasn't this a Nugget?


Its an old Nugget owned by Don that says Gibson mistaken by Steve for an Ellis.

I take it that Don likes to distress his finishes prior to selling, and he does a good job. But he's really slow at it.

This thread reads like a general store jam conversation between deaf old men pickers.

Get the wax (and Hair) out your ears.

----------

Mandolin Cafe

----------


## Larry Simonson

Isn't there some element of owners being responsible caretakers when their instruments have gained world class status?

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

Wanted, dead or alive, sought by members of Mandolin Cafe Forum for crimes against the care and feeding of mandolins.

David Grisman
Bill Monroe (deceased)
Chris Thile
Mike Marshall
John Reischman
Don Julin
Andy Statman
Dempsey Young (deceased)
Frank Wakefield
Jody Stecher

... and (fill in the blank, hundreds of others). Feel free to add your own.

----------

DataNick, 

RichieK, 

Spruce

----------


## barry

> Isn't there some element of owners being responsible caretakers when their instruments have gained world class status?


Only if the owner is a collector of iconic instruments whose world-class status is based on prior ownership by a musical legend.  
Jim Irsay would not want to "speed neck" Jerry Garcia's Tiger guitar, Elvis's Martin, nor John Lennon's Vox.

----------


## Astro

> Only if the owner is a collector of iconic instruments whose world-class status is based on prior ownership by a musical legend.  
> Jim Irsay would not want to "speed neck" Jerry Garcia's Tiger guitar, Elvis's Martin, nor John Lennon's Vox.


Nor refinish Don Julin's.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Wanted, dead or alive, sought by members of Mandolin Cafe Forum for crimes against the care and feeding of mandolins.
> 
> David Grisman
> Bill Monroe (deceased)
> Chris Thile
> Mike Marshall
> John Reischman
> Don Julin
> Andy Statman
> ...


Yup. Andy and Matt Flinner, Barry Mitterhoff and Tim O'Brien on my previous post.

----------


## Mandobar

Matt just had a lot of work done on his Gil.  The binding is fixed, new tailpiece, etc.  It looks great.

----------


## Don Julin

Good morning mando forum folks. I would like to clarify a few things about this instrument, but most likely won't be able to address all the issues brought up in this thread, as I would be pecking away at this keyboard all day. This is what I know. I purchased it from Gruhn's about 5 years ago.(A Givens F5 and a few buckets of cash) It looked like is does today. I am not sure how it got so worn but it surely had been played a lot before I purchased it. I saw what I thought was an old beat up F5 with a very recognizable logo on the headstock. I pulled it down from the wall and was very impressed with the sound and the way it played. I looked at the price tag and even though the price was not cheap, it was not as much as the headstock would imply. I looked inside and saw Mikes signature and knew what I had in my hands. 

I, just like many of you readers have been lusting over Nugget mandolins for many years. The sound, power, clarity, and playability of the Nuggets that I had played made me want to own one. Now to be clear, the workmanship, inlays, finish, and cosmetic properties of some Nuggets are outstanding, but in a jam or on a mic I have never found these cosmetic values to improve my playing or tone in any way. The mandolin in this discussion was just at Nugget's shop for fretwork, new MOP nut, and bridge work. He gave it a clean bill of health and appraised it at 19k.

I can tell you thing, when you enter a jam session with this mandolin, you will be noticed, first by the sound, next by the name on the headstock, followed by a long discussion of why Nugget would have done that. The discussion ends every time with "that's a really good mandolin". It was my main mandolin for about 2 years and was used on many youtube videos and the Billy Strings & Don Julin CD "Fiddle Tune X". It has not seen as much action since I have acquired a 1991 Nugget Two-point that I like even more. I should tell all of you folks that are more cosmetically minded that this Nugget two-point is clean and fancy. Inlays, fancy exotic wood finger rest, it even sports a tone-guard. 

So if you are looking for a mando to polish every Saturday afternoon, keep looking, but if you want to own a serious bluegrass hoss, this could be the one. I will post videos of this instrument and even a photo of the two point that has become my main Nugget.

Cheers
Don

----------

Astro, 

ccravens, 

Clement Barrera-Ng, 

craigw, 

dang, 

DataNick, 

Don Grieser, 

George R. Lane, 

j. condino, 

Jim Garber, 

John Soper, 

Mark Gunter, 

Northwest Steve, 

Rick Jones, 

sblock, 

Scot Thayer, 

sgarrity, 

Spruce, 

Steve VandeWater, 

TEvans, 

Tommcgtx, 

Vernon Hughes

----------


## Jim Garber

> Matt just had a lot of work done on his Gil.  The binding is fixed, new tailpiece, etc.  It looks great.


I took a workshop with him a year or two ago and I played that Gilchrist. It is a nice one, for sure and nicely played in. I believe he did all the distressing with years of playing but nice that he had it renewed, too.

----------


## sblock

I think some of the comments about "only" caring about how an instrument sounds, and not looks, are a trifle unrealistic, or at least exaggerated for the sake of making a point about what makes a given instrument great.  I get that.  However --

if it were 100% true that the appearance an instrument didn't count for anything -- just the sound -- then instruments without any cosmetic adornments (no beautiful grain, no binding, no inlay, no sunburst, no scroll, and so on) would sell for the same price as their fancier counterparts.  Only they don't.  The fancier counterparts cost more, and take more time, to produce, and if they commanded similar prices in the market (because no one actually cared much about this, just the sound), then no luthier would attempt them, and all instruments would be similarly functional, and never fancy.  But we all know that's not the case.

If large amounts of playing wear, for example a splintered top, or one with holes worn through the finish, did not detract in any way from an instrument's value, then used instruments with large amounts of play wear would go for identical prices as those without such wear. Only that's not the case.  Don Julin's ersatz 'Gibson' (and a genuine Nugget) might well have been worth more than what he's asking were it not for the unfortunate peghead inlay and for the poor condition of the top. Of course, being a Nugget and the provenance of having been owned and played by a talented mandolinist (Don) would otherwise have driven the asking price up, and not down, from the mean.

Of course, in the *collector's market* (think Lloyd Loar Gibsons from 1922-24), or in markets where collectors have a significant impact, original condition counts for a _great deal_, and can make an enormous difference in the resale value. That would seem to be beyond dispute.  But I agree that this is a special condition, brought about mainly by the collector mentality, not the player mentality!  This is little different from the antiquities market, in general, where provenance and condition dominate.

But for the main instrument market, dominated by players, for mandolins that cost from (say) $1,000 to $25,000, it's reasonable to ask what role the condition of the instrument plays in its resale value.  OF COURSE the sound counts for an awful lot -- as it surely should! -- but does it count for everything? Personally, I think not. Pretty much all experienced dealers of used mandolins will tell you that the condition affects their appraisals, at both the low end and the high end.

I appreciate and respect those who have written in to say that _all_ they care about is the sound.  That said, I'm not certain that's entirely true in all cases (some seem to care if it's an A model or an F, for example), but I'd wager that their opinions are not in the majority.  Because if they were, then beat-up Nuggets would command the same prices as pristine ones, all sounds being equal...  Only they don't.

As for folks like me, I actually appreciate the fact that beat-up, but nevertheless _great-sounding_ high-end instruments pull in lower resale prices than their cleaner counterparts.  The decrease in market value, with no decrease in sound, helps to bring such instruments into a price range that's closer to what I can afford! I would happily accept this situation if it brought a Nugget or Dudensbostel or Gilchrist (insert your favorite here) down to the point where I might be able to buy one.  Because I, like you, care about the sound, _first and foremost_!  Meanwhile, I will protect my own mandolin with a pickguard and armrest, so it can retain as much resale value as possible, because one day I might be able trade it in for some beat-up Gilchrist or Nugget going for a firesale price!

----------


## Spruce

I think I'll just buy the thing so we can put this thread behind us...   :Wink:

----------

Astro, 

ccravens, 

Charlieshafer, 

DataNick, 

dhergert, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Jim Garber, 

june39, 

Mark Gunter, 

sblock, 

Tommcgtx, 

twilson

----------


## pops1

I could help you play it.  :Mandosmiley:

----------

Spruce

----------


## Mandoplumb

I read shlock's last post and have to agree with him with one exception. I know a good mandolin player that is blind, when he tells me it doesn't matter to him what it looks like I believe it. I'm not taking his disability lightly,I'm just saying that is the only way that looks doesn't affect what we like. Sometimes we like something inspire of it's looks but looks are important to just about all of us.

----------


## Mark Gunter

> but looks are important to just about all of us.


There's no doubt of this; but, follow that thought with this - what looks good? Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Whether or not one of us understands this, the fact is that some people actually _prefer_ the look of honest battle scars on an aged instrument. If it were not so, then marketeers would not be trying to capitalize on that with fake distressing of finishes. So, while this thread may be of value in discussing means of protecting your instruments, or in providing a place for people to air their opinions, in the end, sblock's own distress over why people some people don't use accessories to protect their mandolins has little more meaning than stating that people are different, behaving differently from one another and placing value differently than others.

----------


## fatt-dad

Any mandolin with that much wear would make me look like a poser.  A performing musician would use their tools and get some greater level of distress than I could ever get!  So, if I owned an instrument like the OP, it'd be obvious the wear was from somebody else - not me!  

On that basis alone, I'd feel a bit awkward playing a mandolin that was so obviously, "Not mine!"

f-d

----------


## flynyrdskynyrd

FWIW, when Steve Gilchrist last saw my mandolin (about 3 years ago), I was a bit mortified to show it to him, since I've put quite a bit of wear on it.  He looked it over and marveled at the back, which had long ago lost its gloss from years of being played (I don't use one of those "spider-web" things on the back).  "How did you do that?!"  He seemed genuinely happy to see the wear and nicks, front and back.  My guess is that builders really want to see their instruments played, and of course they get a lot of gratification out of it---even when those instruments are perhaps pushed to their limits.  My Gilchrist has aged and evolved over the last 23 years, just as I have, and our conversation continues in spite of the fact that we've probably done a little damage to each other.

----------

9lbShellhamer, 

Bill Cameron, 

Charlieshafer, 

Clement Barrera-Ng, 

dang, 

DataNick, 

Don Grieser, 

Don Julin, 

Jim Garber, 

Ken Lucas, 

Mandolin Cafe, 

Mark Gunter, 

oliverkollar, 

sblock, 

sgarrity, 

TEvans

----------


## Don Julin

> Sounds pretty good to me in the YT video. I have watched all his instructional and Billy Strings videos and never noticed him playing it


Here are a few videos of me playing the mandolin in question.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

DataNick, 

Drew Egerton, 

Jim Garber, 

Mark Gunter, 

Mark Wilson, 

Scot Thayer, 

Tommcgtx

----------


## Don Julin

And for all of you that desire a good looking mandolin, here is a photo of my fancy Nugget. BTW it is not for sale.

----------

9lbShellhamer, 

Bernie Daniel, 

Bob Clark, 

carleshicks, 

Clement Barrera-Ng, 

dang, 

DataNick, 

TEvans, 

Tommcgtx

----------


## sblock

Don, 

Wow!  That two-point is drop-dead gorgeous.  I envy you.  The torch-and-wire headstock inlay is my all-time favorite design, and Nugget does the best new torch-and-wire inlays of any luthier I have even seen.  May you have many years of playing bliss!  And I am quite sure you will do everything you reasonably can to protect its beauty -- while playing it with abandon.

----------


## Mandoplumb

> There's no doubt of this; but, follow that thought with this - what looks good? Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Whether or not one of us understands this, the fact is that some people actually _prefer_ the look of honest battle scars on an aged instrument. If it were not so, then marketeers would not be trying to capitalize on that with fake distressing of finishes. So, while this thread may be of value in discussing means of protecting your instruments, or in providing a place for people to air their opinions, in the end, sblock's own distress over why people some people don't use accessories to protect their mandolins has little more meaning than stating that people are different, behaving differently from one another and
> placing value differently than others.


I totally agree. There I'd no accounting for taste, what some thinks is ugly another will think beautiful. My post was addressing those that said the sound was ALL they considered when choosing a mandolin, I don't believe many people aren't influenced by the appearance  whatever may be their personal preference .

----------


## Tom Wright

The best-sounding mandolins I have heard in person are all Nuggets, including your F5, so I expect this is a winner. I hope you leave the pickguard on.

Others talk about battle scars and honest wear. My argument is that hand-contact wear is not honest wear because it is completely avoidable. If one doesn't like the feel of the pickguard they can do what Emory Lester did to save his mandolin from further damage and cover the existing wear with clear vinyl. People put this stuff on million-dollar violins and cellos. Why pickers are too proud to protect their axes is not explainable except by ignorance. Allowing completely avoidable damage is simply negligent destruction.

I don't freak out if I get a ding from accidental knock, but when I saw scratches developing on my Buchanan I immediately added a stick-on pickguard. I didn't wait for wear for my second Buchanan to add one. I did that before I even played it.

Wear on the neck is normal and that is why violins don't have varnish there. But that maple is sealed and survives well. The spruce top is thin and has a soft grain. It should be respected, not trashed through neglect. I am sick when I look at Mike Marshall's Monteleone 'cello. It's not character, it's tragedy.

----------


## Jeff Mando

Again, great discussion here!  I still think it comes down to how you were raised and what values were instilled in you.  Like polishing shoes -- do you make your bed every morning or just leave it?  Do you have the neatest yard on your street or the worst?  Do you drive a dirty car?  Do you wash dishes or let them pile up?  Same with laundry.  Do you shave and bathe before leaving the house and running errands?  Were you in the military?  Did you grow up during the Depression or did your folks?  The list of qualifying questions goes on and on, but it is safe to say it has little to do with the care of an instrument and more to do with one's upbringing and personal values of neatness, cleanliness, and one's relationship with money. (btw, I'm not a psychiatrist, but I play one on TV!)  :Wink:

----------

Mark Gunter

----------


## HoGo

Signs of use are to be expected on well played instruments but there is very thin line between honest wear and abuse. If you accidentally hit a curb with your nicely polished shoes they'll get scratched the same as if you intentionally kick a stone. Without knowing what happened to instrument one cannot make conclusions. But at some point, if there is way too much damage one can question if the instrument has been used honestly or abused. SOme folks are really neglectful and excessive wear or damage will come sooner or later.
I had similar experience like Gilchrist when customer brought in instrument after 6 years for setup or refret and while there was some wear (finish worn off parts of neck etc.) it was all definately honest wear and the patina looked just gorgeous... if only I could replicate it right off the bench...

----------


## Mark Marino

Not wanting to add to the debate on this, just wanted to report (brag) that I got to play this fine instrument last evening.  Impressive.  Probably the best I've ever played- attack, responsiveness and tone.  Now if I only can hit the lotto I can afford it!

----------

DataNick, 

Jeff Mando

----------


## Jim Garber

I love that term "honest wear". I suppose the opposite is "dishonest wear". I understand Adrian's comment that there is a thin line between the two. I think a lot of it has to do with different styles of playing. I guess the most honest wear would be fret wear on the first few frets. In other words this is, for the most part, unavoidable over time with instruments that are played often and long. OTOH would this be considered "dishonest wear": a player finds it inhibiting to his/her style of playing to use a pickguard on a mandolin and ends up wearing the top thinner? Yes, they can change the way they play and force themselves to play in a way to avoid the damage. 

I would think that the same thing might be applied to those of us who develop a style of playing where they might injure parts of their body. The other day I was talking to a friend who is avidly learning fiddle who has developed some sort of rotator-cuff problem to the point that it disrupts his sleep. I asked him whether he should maybe consult with someone to change his stye of playing so he doesn't hurt himself over the long term but he says it is OK for now. I suppose that is his choice.

----------


## Tom Wright

> ...OTOH would this be considered "dishonest wear": a player finds it inhibiting to his/her style of playing to use a pickguard on a mandolin and ends up wearing the top thinner?..


Even this is not an issue, as one can apply clear vinyl with almost no thickness. If owners of million-dollar violins or cellos do this, someone with $20,000 in a fine mandolin might want to consider it.

Here's the real problem: allowing wear has an ending point, which is a hole. There is no value in a hole, even for Willie Nelson.

----------


## Eric C.

For every one instrument that has been rode hard, damaged, etc., there's 10 more in pristine care, and a few even distressed when new. Pretty sure this instrument won't sit around long, as people willing to spend this much are most likely paying for the sound and not the appearance.

Pretty simple really: Buy what you like. This is such a crazy discussion.

----------

onassis

----------


## pops1

I am guessing when this was first purchased in 1979 it would be around the price of a Kentucky 1500 today or less than a Northfield. Would all this talk be going on if someone played a Kentucky and distressed it to this point?

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> Would all this talk be going on if someone played a Kentucky and distressed it to this point?


I don't know...but I'll bet Eric might have an idea.  :Wink:

----------


## sblock

It's interesting to me that some folks clearly are not bothered by even large amounts of wear on mandolins -- the kind of wear that goes well beyond what we see typically see with distressing.  But others find it pretty appalling that some tops are reduced to splinters in some places, or even have holes worn clear through them.  And that is because this type of damage _does not_ appear abruptly or accidentally, like normal nicks and scratches, which are hard-to-impossible to avoid, and may add to the "character" of an older instrument, just as the patina adds to a bronze statue.  Instead, we are discussing a kind of playing damage that _grows systematically over time_, starting out as a small area of wear in the finish, and eventually going through the finish and into the top wood, as the size of the area grows, too. It's nearly always due to hand/finger/arm rubbing due to playing position, such as posting fingers on the top. Or it's severe buckle rash on the back.  _But these types of damage are completely preventable_.  However, preventing them can be VERY hard if it involves completely retraining oneself to play with a different position, for example, not posting the pinky or ring fingers. Some folks won't or can't re-learn that easily, because it's too ingrained (believe me, I know).  But this damage is much more easily prevented with a pickguard, armrest, ToneGard (for the back), but some folks don't like these because they also disrupt their preferred playing position a little, particularly the pickguard in the case of folks who post.

Having said all that, there can be little question that that CONDITION plays a significant role in the resale value of a mandolin, and especially so for a high-end one, like a Nugget or Gilchrist or Dudenbostel or Monteleone or (insert your favorite).  There are a few people who have written in to say that they don't care about condition, personally -- only sound.  But evidently, these folks must be a rather small minority, because the market does not value an instrument with heavy wear (of the type we're discussing) as much as one in excellent condition.  Ask any experienced dealer, and he or she will confirm that fact.  Condition is a big part of the value of a used instrument, and this is not just true on the collector side of the vintage instrument market. It's true for players as well.

----------


## Tom Wright

I am surprised by how much this question bothers me, but perhaps it is the feeling that for some people a hole in the top is like ripped jeans, some kind of authenticity badge.

Demurrals because a pickguard would alter playing style are completely off-base because, as I point out, a finish can be protected with a few mil of vinyl. Not even visible from any distance, no effect on playing or sound. Put a patch on the back, one on the binding, and one where you post or rub.

Therefore, there are no arguments against protecting the finish (plenty for saving it) except actually wanting damage. Enjoy.

----------


## Canoedad

Even those who "don't care about condition" expect to pay less for damaged/distressed instrument, right?  I mean, they (I) would not expect to pay the price a relatively pristine instrument would fetch.   So in that sense (assuming I'm correct) EVERYONE "cares about condition."

----------


## CES

> I don't think it would cost that much to get it looking good again, I think a $2 tin of dark brown polish should cover most of the worn spots and save ya having to refinish it!  That or Old English! 
> 
> Just joking.........


You're forgetting, though, it's got to be Loar era shoe polish contained within a Loar era container made from an unmentionable material often referenced as the gold standard for pick materials  :Wink:

----------

Jeff Mando

----------


## DataNick

Personally, I really like Don's mandolin...not debating the wear vs care issue as I own and personally don't mind "mojo" instruments. Pickguards get in my way (I don't plant) and I use a tonegard for its sonic enhancements, not wear prevention...but again this is just me and we're all different!

In that "Little Maggie" video, it looks very cool (if you're into faux-Gibsons) and it sounds like a kick-butt bluegrass axe!

Wish I could own it!...Carry on...

----------

Tom Sanderson

----------


## pops1

A few decades ago I had my choice of two teens Gibson mandolins, one very pristine the other with a lot of play wear. They were the same price, but the one with the play wear, lots of play wear, sounded much better. I bought the one that sounded better. A friend of mine is still playing it today.

Since Don bought it this way and there are usually several of these for sale I am guessing he bought it for the sound, not the looks. I am not condoning or advocating for the distressing, just the point about buying for the sound, not the looks is sometimes , for some of us, most important.

----------


## Jim Garber

Maybe it is time for a "Beat-Up High End Mandolin" Thread. Here's a *Zeidler Carrera* from the Classifieds sold by Carter Vintage.

----------


## Eric C.

> I don't know...but I'll bet Eric might have an idea.



I reckon if I ever sold mine (wouldn't), I'd knock about half the cost for a new one off the instrument.

----------


## DataNick

> Wanted, dead or alive, sought by members of Mandolin Cafe Forum for crimes against the care and feeding of mandolins.
> 
> David Grisman
> Bill Monroe (deceased)
> Chris Thile
> Mike Marshall
> John Reischman
> Don Julin
> Andy Statman
> ...


Hey I guess I really am a "wanted"  Desperado

 


P.S. I LOVE Don's mandolin...having some serious angst about not being squared away enough financially to buy it!

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

Denman John

----------


## sblock

> ... I am not condoning or advocating for the distressing, just the point about buying for the sound, not the looks is sometimes, for some of us, most important.


Actually, I think _buying for the sound_ is the single most important criterion for nearly all of us in this thread!  No argument there from me, anyway.  Given a choice between two equally expensive, high-end mandolins, I would almost certainly pick the better-sounding of the two, _regardless of condition_!  But, given a choice between two equally good-sounding mandolins of equal playability, I would go for the one in the best condition. Most -- _but not all!_ -- of us probably feel the same, and would therefore make the same choices in this hypothetical situation.  Yes, there are a few folks who actually claim to prefer the more beat-up instruments. And there are a few who prefer to see their mandolins _lightly_ beat up -- i.e., "distressed" -- but _not too much_: a few minor dings and some finish wear, but no large areas of bare wood, no splinters, and certainly no through-holes. 

Anyway, what this mental exercise affirms for me is that condition most definitely does affect the selling price, and the general desirability, of mandolins.  Even a great mandolin will sell for a lower price when its condition is badly worn.  The corollary of this is that is you ever intend to resell your mandolin, or trade it in for something better, you should try to keep it in the best possible condition. A few dings and scratches are fine, but realize that there's a limit.  Pickguards and armrests exist for a good reason.

----------

Billy Packard

----------


## John Adrihan

I can live with the wear. I however cannot live with the scooped extension. In fact I would have bought it if not for that.

----------


## sblock

> I can live with the wear. I however cannot live with the scooped extension. In fact I would have bought it if not for that.


Huh?  "Cannot live with it" because you actually play notes above the 22nd fret, or for some aesthetic reason?

----------


## Jim Garber

> I can live with the wear. I however cannot live with the scooped extension. In fact I would have bought it if not for that.


Buy it if you love it and replace the fretboard. That should not be a deal breaker. If possible have Mike K replace it.

----------


## CWRoyds

I love the wear. I wonder why he wants to sell it in the first place. It seems to have been his music buddy for decades. One would think he would keep it around. It has a really great bluegrass tone. I'm assume he has quite a collection. If it were mine I would not let it go.

----------


## lenf12

Time to put it up for sale before its value falls below its worth to Don. Especially if he has a large stable to choose from imho.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

----------


## Jim Garber

> I love the wear. I wonder why he wants to sell it in the first place. It seems to have been his music buddy for decades. One would think he would keep it around. It has a really great bluegrass tone. I'm assume he has quite a collection. If it were mine I would not let it go.


He already said he has a Nugget 2 point that is his main mandolin.

----------


## onassis

> It seems to have been his music buddy for decades.


He's only had it for a couple of years.  He bought it looking exactly like it does right now.

----------


## Cosmic Graffiti

As humans we worship the material value of objects to much. Every nick, scratch and ware mark on my mandolins (instruments) have a story, memory or other value that dollars cannot replace. I would love to own that instrument and would keep playing as is. I bought a Gibson Snake Head early this year that has crazy unnatural ware patterns on. I love the way it sounds and the way it looks. 

I play my Mandolins. If I bought that new in 1979 I would have taken the pick guard off, never would have used an arm rest or a tone guard and it would look just like that. And it would also sound amazing I am sure. 

A pick guard is like putting a bug guard on your Porsche. An arm guard is like putting plastic door guards on your Porsche. Next thing you will be parking your Porsche in 3 parking spaces so it does not get nicked.....you know....you will be that guy.

----------


## Josh Levine

> As humans we worship the material value of objects to much. Every nick, scratch and ware mark on my mandolins (instruments) have a story, memory or other value that dollars cannot replace. I would love to own that instrument and would keep playing as is. I bought a Gibson Snake Head early this year that has crazy unnatural ware patterns on. I love the way it sounds and the way it looks. 
> 
> I play my Mandolins. If I bought that new in 1979 I would have taken the pick guard off, never would have used an arm rest or a tone guard and it would look just like that. And it would also sound amazing I am sure. 
> 
> A pick guard is like putting a bug guard on your Porsche. An arm guard is like putting plastic door guards on your Porsche. Next thing you will be parking your Porsche in 3 parking spaces so it does not get nicked.....you know....you will be that guy.


I use those items so I can play my instrument better or so that it sounds better, not to protect it. To each their own.

----------


## Cosmic Graffiti

Yes totally to each his own. I don't want anything between my and my instruments. For me they sound and play better with out the items. However I would use a tone guard if it helped a specific instrument sound better but not to keep the ware down. I've tried them and did not notice a differnece.

----------


## pops1

I believe it has already been mentioned but worth repeating. The Mandolin looked like that when Don Bought it.

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

For what it´s worth:

Does anybody know, where that mandolin came from previously? Did it spend time in Austria? Don?

Only reason is: There´s a guy in Austria who plays/ed a Nugget like this one (The Gibson headstock). That mandolin sounded nice. I checked and he (also?) plays a Krishot (?) (recently).

----------


## lenf12

> The Mandolin looked like that when Don Bought it.


That's cool but it makes me wonder what the previous owner(s) were thinking. Others have implied above that the mandolin would sound amazing after beating the snot out of it for 30+ years but I contend that it would sound just as amazing if steps were taken to protect the mandolin from all of the abuse to the finish, etc. imho. It's not worshiping the material value of an object. It's respecting the responsibility of possessing a Nugget or a Porsche (or anything of quality) and being a curator for a time before passing it along to the next curator. 

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

----------

Bernie Daniel

----------


## mandroid

Whole fingerboards Get replaced  a few times during  the Professional's Career of touring .

----------


## Spencer

grassrootphilosopher wrote:  "Only reason is: There´s a guy in Austria who plays/ed a Nugget like this one (The Gibson headstock). That mandolin sounded nice. I checked and he (also?) plays a Krishot (?) (recently)."

That must be Helmut Mitternegger from the band Nugget. I played it a bit several years ago, nice instrument.

Spencer

----------


## Don Julin

Helmut claims this is the same one that he once owned.

----------


## Don Julin

For what it is worth, I bought it in very used condition from a reputable instrument dealer that surely would be aware of all things cosmetic and legal. He has a little shop in Nashville called Gruhn's. In the few years that I have owned it, Nugget has done some work on it including neck reset, frets, bridge, nut, tailpiece cover and maybe even more. Sometime he doesn't tell you everything that he does. In either case, whether the appearance is acceptable to you or not, this is the real deal with a clean bill of health from it's creator. But I am sure you could find a shiny F5 for a whole lot less.

----------

DataNick, 

ferrousgeek, 

Mark Gunter, 

Ron McMillan, 

Ryk Loske, 

Tom Sanderson

----------


## fscotte

How come no one cares about an Eastman or an MK that gets beat up?  There's almost a sense of community ownership with the fine instruments.  I don't agree with that at all.  If Don wanted to use the Nugget as firewood, its his right.  

We must keep in mind that yes these are great, one of a kind, and limited mandos, but so are a multitude of other great, one of a kind, limited mandos, that sound just as good.  It's just a logo.

----------

Charlieshafer, 

Tom Sanderson

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> Helmut claims this is the same one that he once owned.


I guessed as much when I saw the instrument on Gruhn´s website before you bought it. I didn´t play it but I remember the jam session with Helmut, Martino Coppo and Massimo Gatti (among others) well. The mandolins played that day sounded very nice. Thanks for chiming in.

----------


## Caleb

> 


Isn't this Caleb Klauder's Sullivan?

----------


## Jeff Mando

> There's almost a sense of community ownership with the fine instruments.  I don't agree with that at all.


I think it is ingrained in the hobby, just like the way people follow sports.  We are "fans" of the mandolin.  We can't all be major league players or drive an Indy car, but we can watch and cheer from the sidelines.  I think it is cool that Thile has a Loar and uses it for all to see and hear.  Quite the contrast, indeed, to someone like Garth Brooks and his Takamine (guitar).

----------


## Dagger Gordon

I've had my Stefan Sobell 10-string mandolin since 1985 and it's seen a lot of action.

It was Stefan himself who once told me that clear nail varnish was quite a good idea if you think the wood is getting a bit too far through. Just put it on the bad areas with the wee brush. 
I've quite often done that. Then you start all over again!

----------


## Tom Morse

I have a Collings MF5, and I've worn a comparable amount of finish off the soundboard. Just this week I had some minor maintenance done at Buckdancer's Choice in Portland, ME. I asked owner Phin Martin (a 40-year luthier) at the shop to weigh in on the wear and tear and he said that yes, it does lower the resale value, but structurally and sound-wise no worries. Violin maker Jon Cooper told me a couple years ago, when the wear started to show, to just play it and not to worry about it. My personal opinion is this: Having a mandolin as good as a Collings has helped me become somewhat semi-pro in my playing and it has paid for itself several times over. It's a terrific tool. Now the folks at Ford go to great lengths and take great pride in designing, building, and finishing the F150 pickup. And just as we all would be with a brand new mando, truck owners hate to see that first ding appear. But a couple years down the road, that F150 will earn its scars and look just like any well used pickup but still do a terrific job. So I think it all depends on what you're doing with your instrument. If you have a true, museum-quality collectible, by all means baby it. But it you have a high-performance, high-quality tool, just work it. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

----------


## bernabe

> Sounds pretty good to me in the YT video.  I have watched all his instructional and Billy Strings videos and never noticed him playing it


Those chop chords sound pretty weak to my ears starting @1:00. Low action perhaps.

----------


## DataNick

> Those chop chords sound pretty weak to my ears starting @1:00. Low action perhaps.


Strings, pick, playing style, mike/recording variables, etc....no way to really tell unless in person; but you knew that already right?

----------


## yankees1

The Pickers call that patina ! Mike loves the look !

----------


## bernabe

[QUOTE=DataNick;1538578]Strings, pick, playing style, mike/recording variables, etc [QUOTE] Same, same, same, and same as open strings and notes near nut which sound decent and full with volume and low end being present. Then, chop chords up neck...... Some mandos just don't have it all. Another variable.

----------


## Willie Poole

Not very many instruments have "it all", some are great on the lower registers and some are great on the high ones, not many have both, I have heard many banjos that knock your socks off when played in G or A and then capo up and strike the B chord and it will make you shudder, same with a mandolin playing up the neck on most of them, just don`t sound right even though the tuner says they are correct as far as intonation goes...since most of play on the first 5-7 frets we don`t give much thought to the difference....

     Willie

----------


## DataNick

When you look/listen at Don's playing style and the sound that he's getting, I don't thing he has a particularly aggressive chop stroke. He looks like he really lightly chops but digs in more when he's playing notes, and the tone to me is fabulous. I have to believe there's more chop in that mando that what you're hearing or not hearing based on the video examples I've seen...YMMV

----------


## Don Julin

Sometime loud is better, but only sometime. The way I see it, whether you are chopping, comping, strumming, or any other form of accompaniment, the point is to support and not bury the soloist. Ever buried a singer when they are trying to sing a ballad. You will get a serious stink-eye from the singer. That is only my opinion and you all are welcome to chop as loud as you can all the time, maybe even chop in ALL CAPS seeing that we are on the internet.

----------

DataNick, 

Denman John, 

ferrousgeek, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Mandolin Cafe, 

Mark Gunter, 

Ryk Loske, 

Tom Sanderson

----------


## DataNick

You da man Don....love you're playin Brotha....what you & Billy had goin was special my friend!  

In a way it kills me that I can't buy your mandolin, but as Mick Jagger sang "You can't always get what you want..."

----------


## Atlanta Mando Mike

At some point I saw a video where Don said he used lighter strings on that specific mandolin (a step below j74's if memory serves).  If that is the case, that would likely have an impact on the character of the chop.  Just a thought.  Personally, I think that is a pretty special mandolin.

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> Sometime loud is better, but only sometime. The way I see it, whether you are chopping, comping, strumming, or any other form of accompaniment, the point is to support and not bury the soloist. Ever buried a singer when they are trying to sing a ballad. You will get a serious stink-eye from the singer. That is only my opinion and you all are welcome to chop as loud as you can all the time, maybe even chop in ALL CAPS seeing that we are on the internet.


It´s funny (kind of...) to see the thread morph into a thread about instrument care an and rythm mandolin picking...

On the other hand... I appreciate your input, Don. 

Even though it´s a tough crowd out there, looking at your former Nugget, I think that whatever one may feel is a negative comment is directed at the instrument, not at the player.

Concerning backing up with a mandolin, I think that Don´s opinion (see quote above) should be common ground for every mandolin player. Sadly enough (me included at times), one is carried away, one does not listen enough while playing with other people etc. So more than not I encounter people that - if the mando had an amp - would turn the volume up to 10, leaving no option for dynamics. This is also noticable when people play in a band context. Banjos and mandos apparently fight against each other for loudness. Good players keep the volume level even.

Concerning the care for an instrument. I think that everybody shows how he values what he has through the care he gives. You can care overly much (allways rub down the instrument, grease the gears, wipe the strings, humidify for life, use the next fashionable product etc.) or you can plain neglect (belt buckle rash etc.). I think as with a child the happy medium takes the cake. I have a friend who wholeheartedly plays his D-41 (bought new in the 90ies). The guitar looks virtually new. He does not pamper it. He just does not abuse the instrument.

----------

Mark Gunter

----------


## AlanN

> Good players keep the volume level even.


Agreed, and go further: Good players _adjust_ the volume level, as needed.

----------

Mark Gunter

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

From Don Julin -_ "..the point is to support and not bury the soloist."_. I think that's something that banjo players 'especially' have to (should) learn very quickly. Apart from the fiddle,the banjo's the loudest instrument in a Bluegrass band (IMO). Played hard,with metal finger picks,it's a hell of a noise. I learned very quickly when i had my band together, to cut down on how hard i picked when playing back up. It's your turn to let rip (sort of), when it's your turn to take a break. It's amazing how a decent mandolin will cut through the 'band sound' if you chop too hard as well. ''Blend in'' until it's your turn to shine is what it should be all about. I think that maybe back in the 'old days',using one mic.,that's all you could do,& many folk inc. me, still think it's the 'best' sound. Using separate mics.,unless you're really familiar with the set up,it's so easy for one or more instruments to overpower the others. It's a technique all on it's own & it's all to easy for a band to sound like a group of 'separate soloists' if they're not careful,
                                                                                   Ivan :Wink:

----------

Austin Bob, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## bernabe

> It´s funny (kind of...) to see the thread morph into a thread about instrument care an and rythm mandolin picking...
> Even though it´s a tough crowd out there, looking at your former Nugget, I think that whatever one may feel is a negative comment is directed at the instrument, not at the player.


Somebody gets it

----------

