# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  Want a gilchrist

## sachmo

OK everyone, what do you recommend when you want the Gil sound that guys like compton, long and mccurry get but don't have $15K+ to plunk down on a mandolin.

Are there builders / instruments out there that rank with these type on high quality mandolins for say under 5K. If there are i've never seen 'em and I need help.

Thanks for the input in advance.

S

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## tin ben dur

Lots. Mowry for 1. Search the builder page.

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## Tim2723

I'd do it the same way a musician gets his $12,000 trombone, $25,000 French Horn, $70,000 bassoon, or $100,000 violin. #Those kinds of numbers are commonplace in music. #My sister-in-law financed a $30K piano, and she's a nurse. #Talk to your bank. #If they don't do it they can point you to one that does. #If you want a Gilchrist, you don't necessarilly have to settle for less. #Explore the options. #I bought a set of ullieann pipes by calling my credit card company and explaining tht I wanted to spend $7000 and repay it in 24 months. #They sent me a $7000 limit card at 3% financing. #I bought the pipes, destroyed the card, and paid it off every month. #At the end the bank sent me a letter saying "Thank you Mr. Smith, and I hope we can do business again soon."

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## mandopete

Not for nothing, but it's spelled "Gilchrist".

Good luck.

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## Tim2723

Believe me, they'll take the money anyway.  # Seriously though, I can't understand why we so often settle for less than we want when there are so many people in the business of getting us the things we want while making a profit doing it. Don't go into debt over your head, as that's irresponsible and disasterous, but there are ways to get what you want.

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## mandopete

Yeah, it's funny, but when I asked David Grisman about the high cost of premium mandolins he said something like, "think about what a dentist's chair costs."

So I think you're spot on about the money. If you want it and can find a way to make payments, that's a reasonable way to go.

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## Chris Biorkman

I'm sure my wife would be cool with me taking out a $25,000 loan for a mandolin. I was planning on sending my son to public school anyways so what's the harm?

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## lovethemf5s

> Lots. Mowry for 1. Search the builder page.


Agreed. Mowry and quite a few others. But if you want to look down and see Gilchrist on the headstock, nothing else will do.

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## mandopete

I dunno, seems like $25k for mandolin is not such a bad thing when you consider it will likely keep it's value. IMHO that's a lot better than blowing the same amount of money on something like a car or a vacation.

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## mandopete

> Agreed. Mowry and quite a few others.


What about them MF-5's?

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## Tim2723

MF-5s will probably keep their value better than a car or vaction too. (Unless you lend it to me!)

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## mandopete

You know, I have my doubt about the value of the MF-5's. Not that it will go down dramatically, but Collings is pumping them out and their quality is soooo consistent. It's hard to imagine them going up in value like a Gilchrist or Nugget mandolin.

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## Tim2723

Good point. Time will tell, but I doubt they'd loose their value too quickly. Good instruments tend to at least hold their own over the long haul.

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## Jim Garber

> OK everyone, what do you recommend when you want the Gil sound that guys like compton, long and mccurry get but don't have $15K+ to plunk down on a mandolin.


You don't need to have a Gilchrist to sound like those guys. I think Grisman on the Tone Poems CDs proved to some extent that he can still sound just like himself on a Regal Snow Queen as he does on the Loar.

In other words, it is probably 90% software and 10% hardware. If I were you I would get the best mandolin you can for what you can afford. It is stupid to go into serious debt for an instrument IMHO -- tho, believe me, I have thought about it. 

Work on your chops and get yourself an instrument that won't hold you back. When you get so good that only a Gilchrist will do, then think about how you will get one.

One other thing... IMHO I think that after a point an audience would not know or care of the difference between a $5000 mandolin and a $25,000 one. It probably sounds the same to them out there. I would say those players who do actually play the fine instruments are the ones that hear the difference -- at the player's level, not necessarily the listener's.

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## mandopete

While I wholeheartedly agree that it's the musician and not so much the instrument that makes the sound, let's not discount that if you want a specific instrument in order to achieve that sound, then that's what is needed.

I've played Gilchrists and Nuggets and believe that those mandolin are worth the price. #Would I but one? #Probably not as I don't feel I need that kind of mandolin I need to get the sound I'm after. #I'm very happy with my Collings MF-5.

I wouldn't advise anyone to mortgage their financial future for a musical instrument. #But on the other hand, if one can work out the payments, I think financing a lifetime (&lt;grins&gt :Wink:  investment like on one of these high-end mandolins makes very good sense.

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## JEStanek

If you are a hobby player (not earning your money from your instrument) I wouldn't understand spending more than you can easily spend (be it $100, 1,000, 10,000 or 100,000) on an instrument. Sure a Dentist's chair, or xray machine cost over $10K but they're needed for the dentist to earn their living.

If you play for fun and at jams borrowing to get a high value instrument doesn't make sense to me. I also whole heartely agree with what Jim Garber wrote.

Also, FWIW, I think Steve is now making an A style for under $8K, right?

Jamie

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## Tim2723

Yeah, no one is advocating financial stupidity, but we can approach the purchase of a musical instrument in the same ways that we approach other major investments: #wisely and prudently.

I agree that, at least for me, I'd be better of with a $5,000 mando and $10,000 worth of talent infusions. #Personally, I earn enough with a mandolin that I could justify a Gil and even write it off my taxes, but I'm not worthy. #I'm not worthy! 

However, I'm not going to assume that sachmo isn't worthy.

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## mandopete

> ...$10,000 worth of talent infusions.


I want those, where do you get them?



BTW Tim - your website says the domain has expired.

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## Tim2723

I'm not sure where they come from, but I'll bet there would be a line out the door.

Our domain thingy is changing to kspirit.info. #I don't know why, but the guy that does the computer stuff wants it that way. (Possibly because I just bought a thousand business cards that say kspirit.net on them that are now useless!)

I changed my sig line, but I don't know if the new site is up yet. #Thanks for the reminder.

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## earthsave

> OK everyone, what do you recommend when you want the Gil sound that guys like compton, long and mccurry get but don't have $15K+ to plunk down on a mandolin.
> 
> Are there builders / instruments out there that rank with these type on high quality mandolins for say under 5K. If there are i've never seen 'em and I need help.
> 
> Thanks for the input in advance.
> 
> S


You could probably get you a "gilchrest" for cheap if they exist.

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## Baird6869

> If you are a hobby player (not earning your money from your instrument) I wouldn't understand spending more than you can easily spend (be it $100, 1,000, 10,000 or 100,000) on an instrument. #Sure a Dentist's chair, or xray machine cost over $10K but they're needed for the dentist to earn their living.
> 
> If you play for fun and at jams borrowing to get a high value instrument doesn't make sense to me. #I also whole heartely agree with what Jim Garber wrote.


I agree. I make $100-150 per gig a couple of times a month. Subtract gas, beer, etc., it is hard IMO to justify spending even over $1000 on a mandolin but that is just me plus I am first and formost a bass player.

I like the $10,000 talent infusion comment.  In my case, the old quote is very fitting.... "Less eBay and more Mel Bay".

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## Tim2723

Justifications are sometimes hard to justify. Just because a player is a hobbyist doesn't mean that much in the world. Some of the finest musicians I've ever met don't make a penny doing it. Heck, my brother's hobby is fishing, and he spends thousands a year doing it. Lots of folks have expensive hobbies. If you want a Gilchrist, then you want one. The heart wants what the heart wants. Maybe your audience won't know the difference (remember Tim's First Rule: They're all drunk and don't care). No one will care how much you spent on your mandolin ten minutes after you're dead. You may as well get what you want while you're here.

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## Paul Kotapish

A quality instrument is a serious investment, but to date, they have been pretty reasonable places to park money. 

I've never lost money on the purchase of a good instrument. I have lost a little on some medium-quality guitars--production Epiphone, hybrid Yamaha acoustic/electric that did not keep their original sales value--but I've always gotten my full investment--or more--back on good guitars or mandolins. In fact, most of my instrument purchases have been better investments than my other savings and retirement accounts, for example.

Coming up with enough scratch to finance a top-drawer mandolin is another matter. I'm not that keen on financing music-related purchases, and I've always been able to salt away enough to pay cash for instruments up front. It means giving up a lot of other stuff that some folks consider essential, but I can never think of anything I want more than a good instrument, so it isn't that hard. And I have been willing to wait a few years to get what I want, too.

I don't know whether Steve is taking orders or not at this point, but if you get on a really long waiting list, it can give you time to assemble your capital over the years-long wait that you will face.

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## SternART

I've written this on here before......I had just paid off my pickup truck, and started a mandolin account.
I was used to that monthly car payment...but now the $ went intio the mando account..and eventually I had 
enough to buy my first Gil.

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## jefflester

> You could probably get you a "gilchrest" for cheap if they exist.


"Givson" mandolins usually go for real cheap on Ebay.

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## JEStanek

Just so I'm real clear, if you can afford the cash straight up, get whatever mandolin you want, worthy or not worthy of your talent. If it's not a tool to earn a living I wouldn't mortgage myself for it. I may save for years and use the money for more important things if required but save yes, borrow - no. Not for *me*.

There are people with expensive hobbies, fishing, golf, horses, car collecting... How many different builders instruments provide a better return on an initial investment than the stock market?

Jamie

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## mindology

Man... There are a lot of builders right now that are building instruments of extremely high quality that are $5k and under. You just have to stumble onto the right ones. I play a Hill F-5 and could not be happier in tone and fit/finish. I would think that if enough people got behind his instruments that they would be in the $15k - $25k range too. 

You know, I have played Gils and Nugs and have figured that in most cases there are some pretty minor difference in some mandos that are a fraction of the cost. I am certainly not saying that Gils and Nugs are not worth their price point because they are truly superb builders, it is just that I think that one can be truly happy with a lesser known builder . 

On the other hand, If you are seeking an investment and not a workhorse. The heavy hitters are the way to go

Jason

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## kudzugypsy

ok - up front, and i hope you realize this, is that buying a gil isnt gonna make you sound ANYTHING like the players you mentioned - you will have the same BRAND of mandolin they do, it ends there. if it was as easy as buying the same brand instrument we would ALL have Gils

i had a good friend who just HAD to sound like Tony Rice, so he spent $60K on a 1935 D-28....guess what, he sounded exactly the same, cept now everyone wants to play his guitar and drool all over it.

if you want a gil, get one, get on the list now and start a savings account, steve will personally contact you in 2-3 years and your mando will begin production with the options you want and be ready in 6 months - thats what i did!

why did i get one - well, i loafed and loafed and loafed over the years, i could have gotten on the list in '93 when they were $3800 - then again at $4800, then at $8500....each time i thought that was too much for a mandolin - so 3 years ago i just decided to do it and get on the list - mine is due in July

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## Ken Olmstead

I don't have problems paying a few $$ for something that I use each and every day. It gives me so much enjoyment in my life that it is money well spent. I used to own motorcycles, snowmachines (snowmobiles to you lower 48rs  ) and a motorhome. I have shed all of those things over the years (most of which I financed by the way) because they simply did not offer me the "fun factor per $." 

I am happy to say that I do not make payments on my Weber Fern, but if I found a mandolin that I had to have and need to finance a bit, I would not think twice about it as long as I could comfortably afford it. As a past banker, my advice is to only finance "toys" over 24 months. If you can't afford those payments than it is out of your reach for now. I only say that after watching folks lives unravel after buying depreciating assets with no money down over 60 months.

One last comment. The mandolin does have risidual value. Setting the Gilchrist aside (which for that particular builder, depreciation is not a huge issue,) lets say I buy a Weber Elite for $11k and a year latter sell it for a dismal $7k, I have only "spent" $4k. Now that is a bunch of dough for 1 year of use but it is not $11k as most of our spouses would argue. It DOES tie up $11k of household resouces while it is in our possession. Never finance more than the "fire sale" residual value of any item you purchase. If the hmmm hits the fan, you can sell it and pay the debt in full.

One last, last comment. A $25k Gilchrist financed over 24 months at 5% will have payments of a low, low $1,096! Meaning the total cost of the Gilchrist is now $26,322. I won't be buying one any time soon! #

Sorry to be so far off topic! I have never heard of a builder that references the "Gilchrist" sound. I have played one Gilchrist and was not very impressed with it. I guess you would have to start with X bracing. Wern't most Gilchrists made with X-bracing?

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## Brian Ray

I _definitely_ find it more reasonable to plunk down $15-30k on a mando rather than a car. Why do we spend so much on cars anyway... but I digress. 

I was asking a very similar question to yours not long ago. The answer for me was a new mando from Paul Duff... but as always, your mileage may vary. 

I'm a big believer in having a mando that is better than one's playing ability... and my Duff is certainly that. To what end and how it compares to other builders should be opined by those who possess the knowledge and interest in doing so.

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## imstrider

Similar to what others have posted, I've played some amazing instruments in the $5k-$8k range that rivaled Gils, Dudes etc. But, I've also played some "just okay" instruments by the same makers of those special "finds." Consistency is always a challenge, instruments change over time, wood behaves differently in different climates, etc etc etc.

What I'm wondering is if there is a role for a mandolin broker who travels the country, plays 100's of instruments, and discovers the great mandos in the batch of good. I know that dealers do this when they go to instrument shows, but I'm thinking of someone who would pick from the best of what dealers have as well. 

I'd be willing to pay an additional $2-3K for a $5K instrument that sounds like a $15K instrument. You would need to sell a lot of mandos at that rate to cover costs and make a living, but it sure would be a fun job.

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## Barry Platnick

I like the fishing analogy for hobby players. I know alot of guys with 25K boats and thousands in other stuff who fish for fun. So if you love it and you can afford it buy it. 

And the fact that unlike a boat it wont be worth 60% MSRP when you walk out the door is a bonus if you need to sell it later.

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## Ken Olmstead

> Just so I'm real clear, if you can afford the cash straight up, get whatever mandolin you want, worthy or not worthy of your talent. #If it's not a tool to earn a living I wouldn't mortgage myself for it. #I may save for years and use the money for more important things if required but save yes, borrow - no. #Not for *me*.
> 
> There are people with expensive hobbies, fishing, golf, horses, car collecting... #How many different builders instruments provide a better return on an initial investment than the stock market?
> 
> Jamie


Most truly wealthy people I have know concur with you philosophy Jamie. It is a common thread with them.

Oh and AHHHHHHHHH! You changed you avatar!!!!!

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## mandopete

> Oh and AHHHHHHHHH! You changed you avatar!!!!! #


Yeah, and I have to admit it's kinda creepy.

One basic philosophy that has worked for me is to always get the best you can afford when it comes to an instrument. #I bought many, many electric guitars on the cheap and lost money on all of 'em. #I've purchased 4 mandolins and sold one for a small profit (unintended).

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## Chip Booth

I've been through a lot of instruments, and played a lot more. I just broke down and bought a Gil. I am certain there are mandolins out there as good for a lot less money, but you will have to be lucky or spend a lot of time looking for the right one. The search was a lot of fun, but for me I'm glad it's over (for now anyway  )!

Chip

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## Chris Biorkman

> Man... There are a lot of builders right now that are building instruments of extremely high quality that are $5k and under. You just have to stumble onto the right ones. I play a Hill F-5 and could not be happier in tone and fit/finish. I would think that if enough people got behind his instruments that they would be in the $15k - $25k range too. 
> 
> You know, I have played Gils and Nugs and have figured that in most cases there are some pretty minor difference in some mandos that are a fraction of the cost. I am certainly not saying that Gils and Nugs are not worth their price point because they are truly superb builders, it is just that I think that one can be truly happy with a lesser known builder . 
> 
> On the other hand, If you are seeking an investment and not a workhorse. The heavy hitters are the way to go
> 
> Jason


I recently saw a video of you playing a Hill. You are an excellent player.

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## Cullowheekid

Hello.I've got one of the best Gilchrists out there.I've had her for going on 26 years now and she keeps getting better.Of course she's a great cook and holds down a full time job.Best thing I ever did. As far as mandolins go,I have yet to play a Gil although I respect him as a builder and in the hands of certain people, sound as good as any mandolin out there.I suppose if you have the money,I'd probably do it.As a alternate suggestion,I'd look around for a Nashville made Gibson F5G.Some of those G's can be as satisfying soundwise as alot of much more expensive mandolins.There just happens to be a used 04 F5G for sale at a music store near here at a very reasonable price.I'm trying to keep my own MAS under control so I don't have any trouble from my Gilchrist.Good Luck.

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## Tim2723

> I've written this on here before......I had just paid off my pickup truck, and started a mandolin account.
> I was used to that monthly car payment...but now the $ went intio the mando account..and eventually I had 
> enough to buy my first Gil.


Another good way to 'find' money. The Christmas club concept is also good,especially if you're on a long waiting list. The bank doesn't care if you're not saving for the holidays.

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## man dough nollij

> Sorry to be so far off topic! I have never heard of a builder that references the "Gilchrist" sound. I have played one Gilchrist and was not very impressed with it. I guess you would have to start with X bracing. Wern't most Gilchrists made with X-bracing?


TBD, as far as I can tell, you're the only poster on this thread who addressed the OP's question. If the ideal is to get "the Gil sound" from a more affordable builder, I wonder which luthiers have intentionally aimed at that "Gil sound". I've never heard one up close, so I'm not exactly sure what the characteristics of that sound are. In recordings, they seem (to my noob ears) to be brighter and more "modern sounding" than a loar, for instance. Does that sound right? In this YouTube video, you can A/B Sharon Gilchrist's Gil with Mike Marshall's mando, which I'm assuming is a loar. I like her's a lot better-- it sounds incredible. The way I would approach the OP's question would be to ask "what reasonably-priced luthiers out there are intentionally shooting for the Gilchrist tone?". Everybody and his uncle are making Loar copies-- anyone doing Gil clones?

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## Greg H.

The thing about it is the Gil isn't going to make you sound like any other particular player. My advice would be go to someplace were you can try out a LOT of different mandolins by different builders (for me that ended up being the IBMA showcase, but Merlefest, Winfield, Winterfest or another of the really big festivals may provide the same sort of variety), try everything out and see what feels/sounds best for YOU. When I did that I was a bit surprised by the results.

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## Ken Olmstead

Cool video man dough nollij!!

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## johnwalser

I also believe that 90% of how an instrument sounds comes from the player and there are many fine instruments made by all the great luthiers around. Even the pacrim folks produce that occasional instrument with wonderful tone ( I have one of those flukes myself ). But, I played one of Steve's F5s at Loarfest a year and a half ago and still remember that incredible heavenly sound. I have no idea what he is doing different than everyone else and would guess that the other luthiers would give their eye teeth to know ALL his secrets. Everyone should have a dream and if yours is a $30,000 mandolin, save your money, drive an older car and don't waste money on foolish things that do not lead to fulfilling your dream.

John

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## Denny Gies

I have a 1993 Randy Wood F5 and it is pretty good. You may want to talk with Randy about your sound requirements. He is great to work with and makes one heck of a mandolin.

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## leathermarshmallow

I like the art of the build. There are some beautiful instruments out there. And of course, there are lots of different sounds out there. But I don't believe that very many people out there could differentiate the sound of a gil verses many other nice sub-$10,000 mandos. I am sure that I couldn't. I just wish I could play the mandos that I have well enough to make them sound as good as others who have played mine before!

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## gregjones

I think Grisman should make a "Plywood Poets" CD. Get a dozen great players around and have 'em play $250 instruments. Then we would all realize it's the fingers holding the pick and not the instrument being picked that makes the difference.

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## Tim2723

Nah. #It would sound better than me on a $250 plywood box, but it would still sound like a plywood box. #Bad instruments can't be hidden by great musicians anymore than bad meat can be hidden by fancy sauces. #You can't buy talent, and you can try to buy your way to the top of the circle and fail, but a good mandolin has an inherent sound that cheap ones can't have because it's not in them. #Have your non-musical neighbor pluck a note on a crapo and then on a good instrument. #You'll hear the difference and it won't have anything to do with the hand holding the pick.

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## Dave Greenspoon

First, I'm grateful that my wife isn't watching me read this thread...bank lonas and financing indeed! #Rut roh Shaggy...rat ray ries ragons!!!!

So for "the alt Gil" I'd have to suggest a Rattlesnake. #Find a used one if you're willing to take someone else's mojo. #For a bit less, a Stiver is still a great axe.

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## JEStanek

Consider an X braced Flatiron or Weber if you're more on a budget. Check out Dasspunk's thread from when he was traveling in Oz with Mike Compton and Steve Gilchrist. Oz Thread. Note, Mike Compton is mostly playing a Duff dola. Brian is playing a Duff mando. Steve's playing a Gil, I think  

Jamie

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## lovethemf5s

> OK everyone, what do you recommend when you want the Gil sound that guys like compton, long and mccurry get but don't have $15K+ to plunk down on a mandolin.


Does McCoury still play a Gil? I thought he sold it a few years back. Does he still have it? Besides, what could induce him to sell an instrument like a Gil?

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## Tim2723

I'm pretty good at Scooby-speak, but you lost me!

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## Greg H.

> Does McCoury still play a Gil? I thought he sold it a few years back. Does he still have it? Besides, what could induce him to sell an instrument like a Gil?


I don't know if he still has the Gil, but what could induce him to sell it would be the Loar he's now playing a lot of the time. For all I know, however, he may have both.

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## Ken Olmstead

Sachmo - I think you will have to try and verbalize what you are after in sound. Obviously hard to do and then interview various builders to find the one that your confident would get you the closest. Finding a builder that has repaired Gilchrists in the past and hopefully analized the construction a bit might be a first prerequisite. Loars have had every detail analyzed and this information has been desemenated to many builders but I don't think many folks have taken apart a Gilchrist and really took detailed measurements of graduations and such. Probably best to make a pigrimage to a show (IBMA) for instance with lots of builders in one spot and sample their instruments and talk with them about elements of construction. Plus that would be a fun show!!

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## tin ben dur

Buy a KM1000 and save for a Duff. Hey thats what I am doing.

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## SternART

So..tbguy...you don't think Steve Gilchrist has measured Loars like other luthiers?
I thought he was considered one of the best at Loar repair & restoration, down to 
sniffing them through the f holes. I suspect his measurements started there when he
did repair work for Gruhn's. I think having built over 600 mandolins is part of what
make's Steve's instruments so special. And the fact that he is a good Monroe style player,
factors in too.

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## Tim2723

How did we manage to add $10,000 to the price of Sachmo's mandolin?

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## Ken Olmstead

> So..tbguy...you don't think Steve Gilchrist has measured Loars like other luthiers?
> I thought he was considered one of the best at Loar repair & restoration, down to 
> sniffing them through the f holes. I suspect his measurements started there when he
> did repair work for Gruhn's. #I think having built over 600 mandolins is part of what
> make's Steve's instruments so special. #And the fact that he is a good Monroe style player,
> factors in too.


Absoluely, however, most of Steve's mandolins are x-braced if I remember correctly which is a clear departure from Loar construction. Gilchrist has evolved into his own sound. My post trys to point out that I don't think many folks have studied Steve's work enough to reproduce it. But I could certainly be wrong. Just trying to help with the OPs post in selecting a lower cost builder to help reproduce Gilchrists sound, which is what he asked before we all told him to buy a Gilchrist anyway.

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## tattiemando

Ronnie McCoury plays a Loar now. He had a 1997 tone bar braces Gil with (F) holes and I beleive he toured and recorded on it on The Mountian album with Steve Earle. He sold the 1997 Gil. 

I think he still has his 1981 Gil (X) braced model 5. If you goon Ronnie's web site there are photos of him and his wife having a jam with other great pickers who were at the Zepplin gig at the Zepplin gig in London. He was playing his 1981 Gil. I just love Ronnie's Gil.

When I got Andrew Mowry to build me my F5 I considered having (S) holes instead of (F) holes like Ronnie's 1981 Gil.

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## mandopete

> OK everyone, what do you recommend when you want the Gil sound that guys like compton, long and mccurry get but don't have $15K+ to plunk down on a mandolin.


I'd reccomend you buy a Gilchrist if you want a Gilchrist sound, period. 

You might be able to save some money by looking for a used F-Style or looking for a comparable A-Style, but that's it.

I don't believe you're going to find a comparable mandolin for under $5,000.

end.

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## adizz

i'd recommend a highland strings mandolin by Jason Harshbarger the mandolin store has some pics and a great sound clip. the web site is www.highlandstrings.com they have a great deep tone you can feel in your chest.

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## mandopluker

What is that "Gilchrist" sound? Seems like I have heard several different people play a Gilchrist and they all sounded different, some good others not so good (like me)  Maybe it's in the right hand as said, or the ear / eye of the beholder. I say look around and sample as many different mandolins within your comfort zone -price or otherwise then go for it.

Best of luck on your quest.

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## Hans

The "Gilchrist" sound is red spruce and sugar maple. Different from red spruce/red maple.

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## mandopete

Thanks Hans, I think that's about the best information we've had so far.

I kinda think it's like saying "I want to drive a car like a Porsche, but I only have enough money for a Volkswagen - what should I buy?"

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## Joel Spaulding

But indeed some very fine instruments made from red spruce and sugar maple can be found in the $5k range - especially an A-style. If one looks at pre-owned instruments from some of the builders previously mentioned,(Hans included  ) #we might be comparing fruits from the same orchard.

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## mandopete

Yes, I think that is Hans' point.

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## Paul Kotapish

This debate over the relative merits and intrinsic value of the work of various luthiers is evergreen and will continue forever without resolution. As long as there are folks who hear and see the value of Gilchrists, Nuggets, Dudenbostels, et al, and have the scratch to purchase them, then there will be those who believe that they are worth the extra money. 

I certainly hear and see the value in those instruments, and my opinion is that whenever I encounter an equivalent instrument at a lower price by a lesser-known maker, then that instrument in undervalued--not the other way around. It's been pointed out endlessly, but it is worth repeating again, that luthiers are--in general--desperately underpaid for the value they bring to the enterprise of making wonderful instruments. And compared to violins, pianos, vintage electric guitars, and many other instruments, mandolins are a bargain at every price point.

Still, I suspect that the actual key to the ascendancy of any maker's star can be traced to which hot mandolinists are playing that maker's instruments. If Grisman, Thile, McCoury, your-most-admired-picker-here performs and records and sounds great on a particular maker's instrument, you can be sure that there will be some lopsided demand for the output of that maker.


I must respectfully disagree with Hans's reductive analysis of the "Gilchrist" sound. Maybe I'm misinterpreting something in that comment, but I'd argue that the choice of materials in any instrument--Gilchrists included--is secondary to the skill, experience, and savvy of the maker.

I'm not sure that Steve himself would lay claim to a specific sound, but I have played loads of them--often side by side with holy-grail Loars--and they have all been excellent. Not at all the same, by any means, but always top knotch.

Just one guy's opinion.

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## Paul Kotapish

One last musing. 

I was just reading about a Patek Phillipe watch going at auction for over $11 million. My $40 Swatch has kept perfect time for years now, and I can't figure out what all the fuss is about. Both are Swiss watches, both keep good time. The difference in materials can't be more than a few hundred dollars. What accounts for the $10,999,960 difference in price tags?

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## Wesley

Hasn't Mr Gilchrist been quoted as saying that he doesn't think there are any tonal differences between his A and F mandolins? If so - that should save you around 10,000 dollars. Then you have the Gilchrist sound. And you can quit buying coffee at Starbucks, take the bus and sell your car, stop renting movies ect, ect until you've saved the extra 10 grand. It can be done IF it's important enough for you. I'm looking forward to my Kimble myself. Good luck. And let me borrow it sometime.

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## Brad Weiss

> "I want to drive a car like a Porsche, but I only have enough money for a Volkswagen - what should I buy?"


An Audi.

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## mandopluker

> The "Gilchrist" sound is red spruce and sugar maple. Different from red spruce/red maple.


...see you can teach an old dog new tricks  Ya just learn sumin' new ever dag nabbit day and who would have thunk it!

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## goose 2

I would recommend a Red Diamond vintage A or F. I own an A but have also owned a Gil F-5. I prefer the RD that I now own but I think they are both expertly made and sound fantastic. The Red Diamond sounds a bit more like a Gibson Master Model (a good thing) than the Gilchrist and I believe costs less. I do believe that they all around are very comparable.

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## fredfrank

I was on a mission to find a Gil a while back, when I discovered the Red Diamond Vintage model. Saved me about half of the asking price on a Gil.

I wouldn't say they sound just like a Gilchrist, but they have their own sound, and it's the one I like these days. Just listen to what Josh Pinkham sounds like on his! (MP3 page - Blackberry Blossom)

I'll no doubt keep my Red Diamond even if I decide to finish my quest for a Gilchrist.

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## mandopete

> I'll no doubt keep my Red Diamond even if I decide to finish my quest for a Gilchrist.


Nah, you hafta sell it to me!

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## fredfrank

That depends, Pete. What ya gonna do with your MF5?

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## mandopete

I'd trade it in for a cowbell!

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## fredfrank

> I'd trade it in for a cowbell!


What brand of cowbell? Collings ? . . . maybe I can round one up in exchange for yer MF5.

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## Bernie Daniel

I think Gilchrist, Kimble, etc and other top mandolins are breathtaking and wonderful no question.

But the truth is I do not think that most members of this Cafe -- if blind folded in front of Mike Compton -- could not tell whether he was playing a $35K Gilchrist, a $25K Gibson DMM, an $8000 Collings MF-5V, a $6000 Weber Big Sky, or a $3000 Gibson F-9. #They really couldn't. 

What's more if all the mandolins were set up correctly, and the listeners remained blindfold, and then were handed the mandolins (with a pickguard on the Gibson and Weber) one at a time to pick on they would not know which they were playing.

For sure a nice mandolin that makes great sound is inspiring, and it encourages you to practice and play -- so it IS important to have a properly set up and good sounding insturment. #

A good mandolin from a company like Gibson, Weber or Collings or one of the many smaller private luthiers (there are so many) will put a smile on your face and inspire you and will not let you down in a jam and the guy next to you -- unless he looks will have no idea what kind of a mandolin you are playing.

Get a good mandolin that fits your budget and play -- time is moving on - don't waste it.

Folks who have the means should buy and play the real expensive mandolins if that turns them on.

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## Paul Kotapish

> But the truth is I do not think that most members of this Cafe -- if blind folded in front of Mike Compton -- could not tell whether he was playing a $35K Gilchrist, a $25K Gibson DMM, an $8000 Collings MF-5V, a $6000 Weber Big Sky, or a $3000 Gibson F-9. They really couldn't. 
> 
> What's more if all the mandolins were set up correctly, and the listeners remained blindfold, and then were handed the mandolins (with a pickguard on the Gibson and Weber) one at a time to pick on they would not know which they were playing.


I couldn't begin to speak for most people on the Cafe, but I've done this kind of blindfold test with a roomful of musicians and Loar, a pair of Gilchrists, a Nugget, and a Stan Miller, and everyone was able to discern the differences between the instruments--even the difference between the two Gilchrists--and correctly identify which was which--listening and playing.

That doesn't mean that we all agreed about which was the optimum sound. They all sounded great, as I'm sure the DMM, Collings, and Weber would, too, but different, and different players had strong preferences about those differences.

That's not to suggest that a great player can't get a great sound out of almost anything he or she picks up, but for those with discerning ears, the differences are important.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Paul :I couldn't begin to speak for most people on the Cafe, but I've done this kind of blindfold test with a roomful of musicians and Loar, a pair of Gilchrists, a Nugget, and a Stan Miller, and everyone was able to discern the differences between the instruments--even the difference between the two Gilchrists--and correctly identify which was which--listening and playing.


Interesting.

OK, I propose a demonstration of this. 

I could try to arrange for a person (a good player who is in a local BG band) to play some songs and make a set of sound clips of the same tune being played on the following mandolins (a Kimble F-5; a Smith Creek F-5 a Gibson F-5 Fern, a Gibson F-12, a Gibson A-9; a Weber F-5 Fern and a Clark F-5 Varnish; a JBovier F-5; and possibly an Eastman F(do not know what model). 

If I can arrange this -- need to make some calls and get some agreements -- might take a week or so. Then I'm not sure how long it would take to actually do the recordings.

I would propose that each mandolin would be identified and then a sound file with a scale, a set of chop chords. and a song --say Southern Flavor -- would be played. #

Then after each mando is heard on the first song -- two sets of coded sound clips of each mandolin (this time unidentified) playing two songs say first Goldrush (first the melody and then the chords)and second Ashokan Farewell. #The order mandolins herard on the two test songs would be totally randomized -- e.g., mandolin A on song 1 followed by mandolin K on song 2 etc.

The recordings would be made in a new, professional sound studio already use to make two CD's. #The distances and the sound control systems would be set up identical. #Again I have to get clearences for this experiment.

The only caveat would be we might have to record on different days dependent on the mandolin and player availability. And I might not be able to do it with all the mandolins I mentioned -- not sure. Then again I might find some others too.

As I finsh this note I can think of three more F-models and a Collins A- model in this area that might be included.

What percentage do you predict that average mandolin player or the average muscian could get right? #How well would you predict that you could do? Personally I do not think I would do well on it.

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## Alex Fields

> What percentage do you predict that average mandolin player or the average muscian could get right? How well would you predict that you could do? Personally I do not think I would do well on it.


Maybe couldn't say which was Weber, Gibson, etc., but I could definitely tell the difference and say which I liked best.

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## Chip Booth

Bernie those sort of recording taste tests are always interesting and fun to hear, but in the end I don't think they really tell us much. #For one, recordings seldom do justice to the instrument itself, even a high quality recording. #Also the experience of listening to vs. playing a mandolin can be extremely different. #

I recently played a couple of mandolins by a respected builder. #One mandolin was, in my opinion, as good sounding a mandolin to listen to as anything I have heard. #Just incredible, it literally made me catch my breath. #But it was totally lacking to play it. #The high end sounded lifeless and the low end sounded weak. #But in anyone else's hands it is pure joy to listen to. #Another of his mandolin was so responsive to play, loud, resonant and complex. #But when listening to someone else play it it was a bit dull, lifeless by comparison to the other mandolin. #And the builder disagreed with my opinion, he greatly preferred playing and listening to the second mandolin. #I gave some serious condsideration to buying the first mandolin, even keeping it for week, but in the end I couldn't get used to the idea that it didn't sound the way I wanted it to to me even though I knew listeners were going to enjoy it. #

Also a person's individual style and technique bring out different qualities in mandolins. #So what may sound great in one players hands may not shine in mine. #The mandolin I am playing now sounds great to my ears and sounds pretty much the same to the listener as far as I can tell. #And fits my style. #It just happens to be a Gilchrist. #

I still encourage you to try your experiment, I will enjoy hearing the results.

Chip

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## Alex Fields

And another thing with an experiment like that, for it to be meaningful, you would have to control for type of string, type of set up, picks used, how old the strings were, even what kind of bridge was used and etc.

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## kudzugypsy

that experiment is kind of what the whole Tone Poems CDs Grisman put out were trying to show. i dont think doing that for purely A vs B vs C, etc (ie which is better) is going to prove very much - what i mean is: lets say the Gibson F9 is the BEST out of 10 mandolins - lets say its picked over DMMs / Gils and even a Loar - thats great, that means THAT certain F9 is a GREAT mandolin - but that doesnt mean ANOTHER F9 might be - its like Chip said - they are ALL so different that unless you get your hands on the mandolin, its hard to make the call. i can set the action up high on my F5L and it will blow you away...but i cant do more than chop it due to the high action.

another thing is this - i have played really good sounding mandolins sitting in a store or at a festival, just sitting there playing solo they sounded wonderful - made you want to pull out the credit cards...BUT the REAL test of a BG mandolin is how well it does in a group context - how well does it fit in the mix, how hard can you drive it if needed, how much *cut* does it have - these are the things you just cant tell by sitting down and testing a mandolin. i have a Nugget that if your setting around with a small trio or duo sounds just as sweet as anything you could ever want, the word woody is the best description - but take it to a jam session and its dull and muddy - on the other hand, my Kentucky KM-1500 is very hard and brittle sounding when played alone, but really spanks it in a BG jam - it has more *cut* to it, more mid-range.

 i just went to a festival where there were 3 bands playing around 1 mic - (same mic set-up) there was one player whose mandolin was just cuttin' it up - he was 5' from the mic and it was CLEAR and powerful - the other mandolins were all top teir mandolins - a Gibson and a Duff - but the one that was so far ahead of the others...was a Gilchrist. i didnt know any of this until after the fact. keep in mind they ALL sounded good - but it was that extra *umph* and cut that the Gil had that separated the 3.

the final point is that its really a lifelong process to find THAT mandolin that does everything for you - you may ALREADY have it and just think something better is out there when its not, or it may take you playing 200 mandolins over 10 years before one speaks to you - there are players i know, GOOD players that own mandolins i cant get nothin' out of - but in their hands, its like a perfect match...and vice-versa - give them my mandolin and i'm sure they are thinking its not for them. i've been lucky to have found some REALLY good mandolins, but i have played A LOT of em to end up with these, plus i live in an area where mandolins seem to be as plentiful as pickup trucks...not to mention i have Mandolin Central right up the road where i can play anything from a 1923 Loar to a brand new Duff or Randy Wood.

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## JEStanek

We had this here maybe a year ago... I think Chris Baird (builder of Arches Mandolins) had Ken Sager play a bunch of different mandolins (A Loar, Gil, two Arches). He posted the clips for people to guess which was which. IIRC the one I liked the best was the X braced Gil.

Here's that thread I was talking about.

These experiments are fun and I hope you can pull it off. It's tough because while a good builder will have instruments that sound like thiers, there will always be variation between them. They're all different in subtle ways even if from the same wood stocks.

Jamie

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## Gary Hedrick

I have had the opportunity to host some large picking sessions at my house. The side bar to those was a mandolin sampling effort. A number of folks that own high end mandolins brought their stuff and it was laid out on tables and our king size bed for all to pick up and play in the various picking circles in the parts of the house. There were Loars, Ferns, Gils, Collings, Flatirons, Monteleones, Nuggets, Heidens, Master Models, Dudes, F4's, F2's,F7's, #Newer Ferns, Kimbles, Red Diamonds, Woodley's, and a few I may have missed. #The point to all of this was for folks to play the instruments within the context of what really matters....how do they sound in an ensemble....we had folks playing hard core grass, newgrass, new acoustic style, there were even a group of 5 or 6 that played fiddles on mandolins sitting around in our master bath (and no one was sitting on throne)....opinions varied.....some liked this ...some liked that.....there was no "king of the hill".....even some liked a Kentucky better than some high priced instruments....

In my mind it isn't so much about telling the difference between a Loar and a "fill in the blank" but rather what do you like to play....what can you get the most of what you want out of which instrument....and then eventually what can you afford in some cases. #Loars are not the be all and end all for everyone....the same is true of the Big Four #and the next level also. #We all play different music...have different techniques, and are looking for different things in our instruments.

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## Bernie Daniel

[QUOTE= ] Gary Hedrick:There were Loars, Ferns, Gils, Collings, Flatirons, Monteleones, Nuggets, Heidens, Master Models, Dudes, F4's, F2's,F7's, #Newer Ferns, Kimbles, Red Diamonds, Woodley's, and a few I may have missed. #The point to all of this was for folks to play the instruments within the context of what really matters....how do they sound in an ensemble....we had folks playing hard core grass, newgrass, new acoustic style, there were even a group of 5 or 6 that played fiddles on mandolins sitting around in our master bath (and no one was sitting on throne)....opinions varied.....some liked this ...some liked that.....there was no "king of the hill".....even some liked a Kentucky better than some high priced instruments....[&#92;quote]

Boy I would like to have been a fly on the wall at that party!




> In my mind it isn't so much about telling the difference between a Loar and a "fill in the blank" but rather what do you like to play....what can you get the most of what you want out of which instrument....and then eventually what can you afford in some cases. #Loars are not the be all and end all for everyone....the same is true of the Big Four #and the next level also. #We all play different music...have different techniques, and are looking for different things in our instruments.


That is the general idea I was after -- you said it better - you want a mandolin that you like and that inspires you to play it. #

I find that my ear adapts to the sound of any good mandolin after playing it a few minutes -- but it takes a really good sounding mandolin - one that sounds great on that first note -- to make you want to pick on it every time you walk past it -- that is usually a very good thing.

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## Mark Seale

> The "Gilchrist" sound is red spruce and sugar maple. Different from red spruce/red maple.


The current sound and the sound he is working toward is red spruce and sugar maple with tone bars. The '81 Gil that Ronnie plays(ed) was Englemann and X braced. I heard an '82 (built to the same spec as Ronnie's) at the Symposium that was (to my ear) the best mandolin on stage and that included two Loars, but not Crusher.

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## Pete Martin

> I'm not sure that Steve himself would lay claim to a specific sound, but I have played loads of them--often side by side with holy-grail Loars--and they have all been excellent. Not at all the same, by any means, but always top knotch.
> 
> Just one guy's opinion.


And an excellent opinion Paul.

A great maker often has a certain sound with their instruments. Not all identical by any means, but there is often a "sound" in there. I can usually recognize Gils, Nuggets, Collings, even Stradolins simply because I have played a lot of each and can hear similarities.

I have also played a lot of Gils. Their consistent excellence is why I purchased one. If you want THAT sound, you'll never regret the purchase. Best of luck!

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## Andy Fielding

Okay guys, feel free to differ with me, but the more I read about this kind of thing, the more convinced I am that it's a kind of craving for validation.

I'm a lifelong musician, and I've played many mandolins, including some of those you're discussing here. I just can't agree that a $25,000 mandolin, no matter who made it, is _five times,_ or even two times, as good as a fine $5000 handmade instrument. If it does seem to be, it's most likely you've convinced yourself—consciously or unconsciously—that it is, figuring that because this instrument costs _this_ much, it must be _that_ much "better" than the others (another odd human trait).

Let's face it: What you're paying for is prestige. It must be a tribal thing, like getting to wear the best feathers in your headdress. It's a conspicuous indication that you had the power to buy a more expensive mando than anyone else's at the jam (or had the power to convince someone to give you the power and pay it back in installments).

If that's important to you, that's super. But I'd much rather be able to enjoy 4 or 5 (!) other great instruments, all with different personalities, than to have one wackily expensive instrument I'm afraid to take out of the house without hiring a security guard.

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## sgarrity

You dug up an old thread here but it's not about being 5x better.  May I direct you to a quick, educational read on the topic??

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/blog.php?b=214

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## woodwizard

I'd like to have a Gil, I'd like to have a Monty, I'd like to have a Dude, I'd like to have a Nugget, I'd like to have Loar and I'd like to have probably a dozen or more other different flavors. Not because of the price (high value) but because I know they are (ALL) exceptionally awesome sounding mandolins. And I love mandolins. If the stars are lined up just right sometime in my life time and I'm just lucky enough I'll have one of em some day.  :Mandosmiley:  Dreaming happy things is healthy.

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## Paul Kotapish

See response below.

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## Paul Kotapish

> Okay guys, feel free to differ with me, but the more I read about this kind of thing, the more convinced I am that it's a kind of craving for validation. Let's face it: What you're paying for is prestige. It must be a tribal thing, like getting to wear the best feathers in your headdress. It's a conspicuous indication that you had the power to buy a more expensive mando than anyone else's at the jam.


I love flogging this poor, old, dead horse.

Are some people buying top end instruments for prestige? Undoubtedly.

Is that the only reason? Nope.

And no offense intended, Andy, but suggesting that top-end instruments are only status symbols suggests either lack of real familiarity with the instruments in question or sour grapes. 

The price point and associated value for the acknowledged top tier examples of any crafted object (automobile, watch, shotgun, violin, mandolin, you-name-it) rarely bears any direct linear correlation with lower priced and lesser-valued instances of the same object based on the intrinsic utility of the object. 

My cheap-o watch tells time as accurately as your Rolex, and my Honda can haul as many people as your BMW.  At a certain point the quality index flattens out while the price/value index continues to rise based on other factors. 

With musical instruments, these other factors can be difficult to quantify. 

Not every player can pull the same sounds out of a given instrument, and not every listener can actually perceive the differences in the subtle nuances in tone qualtity, overtone generation and decay, and volume that different instruments might have. And some of those differences are more pronounced on stage under the ear in concert conditions than they are sitting around playing solo or jamming.

For example, if you always play with a fairly light touch through a pickup and an amp, then it's probably true that the differences between various mandolins are going to be more negligible than they might be for other players. If your primary musical experience is a weekly jam session, it's also likely that you might not recognize the differences, either.

That's not the same thing as saying that there aren't differences and that those differences aren't worth the extra money to SOME-BUT-NOT-ALL players. And the fact that you or I might not be able to differentiate the differences doesn't mean that they don't exist. 

At a certain level of quality, you absolutely pay an inordinate premium to get only incremental differences in quality. If those incremental differences aren't important to you--hallelujah! More money for other instruments or beer or new shoes for the kids. 

But again, that's not the same as saying that those subtle differences aren't important to players such as Grisman/Thile/Marshall/Reischman/Rozum/Bush et al who are listening with extremely developed ears and playing in optimum acoustic environments with other hypercritical tone freaks. 

This issue is address in an interesting story in the current edition of _Strings_ magazine about the important differences that a specific (and very high-end) instrument can make in a string quartet--or any acoustic string ensemble. Click here to read it.

Besides, the “Kochanski” Guarneri del Gesù violin just sold for $10 million. Compared with that, mandolin prices are chicken feed.

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## bootinz

I agree with Paul. I know a guy who owns a Loar and doesn't advertise it and rarely brings it out in public. It seems to me if it's a status symbol he'd shove in everyones face every chance he got.

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## Kevin Briggs

> That's not the same thing as saying that there aren't differences and that those differences aren't worth the extra money to SOME-BUT-NOT-ALL players. And the fact that you or I might not be able to differentiate the differences doesn't mean that they don't exist.


I guess....

It has as much to do with what those musicians can pull out of an instrument, as it does the quality of their instrument. I've heard Sam Bush say he likes a Gibson with a scroll because that's what Bill Monroe played. I would bet Grisman follows the same line of thinking, despite his brief flirtations and alleged loyalty to a few new builders, Eastman included. 

I would not sit here and bash a brand, and certainly would never bash a person who is trying to make a living, but using the word "incremental" is very apt. It's more about differences than improvements. Mandolins only get so loud, so volume is not a justificaton for extreme prices. It's more about tone and playability, which I get. If it's about something else, the I definitely don't get it. 

I have spent over two years on my current mandolin, and that affects how I feel about it. I tried playing some much more expensive models recently, and I had a hard time pulling the tone I wanted out of them. Is that because I can't hear good tone? Is that because I'm a hack? No. It's because I have developed a technique for over two years on the one mandolin I own. I am sure that I would be zealous or overzealous about another nice mandolin if I played it for two years.

Outside of the condition of the market, there's really nothing we can point to with any real certainty that can justify a mandolin costing $250,000, or a violin costing $10,000,000. I think it is pointless to argue that tone and playability make a mandolin cost $250,000 as opposed to $9,000. Tradition, established via years of marketing and consistency in the music mandolin fans listen to, establish that kind of insane price point. 

With all of this said, I would be first in line to spend $250,000 on a mandolin if I didn't have a beautiful wife, a beautiful little girl, and a great little boy depending on me to support them, and if I had that money to spend freely. I, however, know that the only reason I would spend it is because I have been conditioned to think it's the ultimate mandolin purchase. I would probably even think it sounded better no matter what, depsite what it actually sounded like.

Splitting hairs can only go so far. Saying people other than the mandolin gods can't hear good tone is like saying only people from the Maine coast know what good lobster tastes like. It's like saying only great writers can tell a good book. Most of us know good tone when we hear it, and for $250,000 I think my deceased dog should be able to tell.

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## AlanN

> Let's face it: What you're paying for is prestige. It must be a tribal thing, like getting to wear the best feathers in your headdress. It's a conspicuous indication that you had the power to buy a more expensive mando than anyone else's at the jam


I, for one, don't dig/want the scrutiny that invariably kicks in when someone reads the headstock script. 

Now, where is my black electrical tape?

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## re simmers

I think the Gil and every other mandolin is worth whatever the person playing thinks it's worth.

Bob

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## Ray(T)

I would like a Gilchrist, could probably afford one and wouldn't get any serious complaints from my wife. The trouble is that I live in the UK and such beasts are rare on these shores. Its not, therefore, such a problem affording one but finding one (or something equivalent) which is for sale.

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## Jim Nollman

Seems to be a classic issue of branding. Branding shows itself anytime a person gets psychologically motivated (by advertising, a neighbors opinion, etc) to purchase one product over another. One surefire motivation for buying art (which includes mandolins) is how well established the artist is. If a mandolin maker with a family to support remains in business for 1 year, its not the same miracle as the mandolin maker with a family who remains building for 5 years, or 20 years. Branding is thus a cumulative process. 

Quality also develops cumulatively over time. All the mandolin makers who get top dollar have been doing it for a while longer than the middle tier, so on so forth. And in every case, at some point, some famous player chose that's maker's instrument. That event boosted branding. In such a way, by observing these benchmarks on the path, the evolution of an expensive instrument becomes  a predictable process. Yet it remains difficult to predict the future high end, without the benefit of hindsight. Playing and judging all the instruments of the current middle tier, is far less of a help than charting the benchmarks on the path. 

If you agree with this, then you probably also have to agree that there's  actually only a rather small chance that an established 5 year maker makes a lesser sounding mandolin than a 20 year maker. The 5 year maker is still in business which means he's already achieved the major miracle in his exceedingly difficult profession. His future instruments will only become incremently better over the next years, and only with a certain few of those instruments.

I have noticed many times since becoming a member of the Cafe, an ongoing and brisk promotion, by players and owners, (not always the same thing) of the middle and lower range of builders. Some owners are, of course, doing this only to praise great mandolin craft. Just as many exhibit the subtle signs of promoting  the brand, meaning their own investment, with the gamble and hope that enough praise will eventually transform a Mowry, BRW, Poe mandolin into a Nugget, Dude, Gilchrist  mandolin, given another fifteen years time. I have high hopes for my own BRW, and I don't think anybody's completely immune from looking at their small builder instrument as an investment, as well as a thing to play. 

I do believe that in all respects besides branding,  it is already the equal of the high end.

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## SincereCorgi

> Besides, the Kochanski Guarneri del Gesù violin just sold for $10 million. Compared with that, mandolin prices are chicken feed.


Yes, but there have documented blind tests in which Strads didn't 'beat' modern instruments from excellent makers. The stratospheric price of rare violins isn't because they're superb but because they're basically extremely old fine art now, Vermeers with tuning pegs. I have never liked the argument that some instrument is a bargain because another is ludicrously expensive.

That being said, I guess a Gilchrist in this instance _is_ the modern instrument from an excellent maker that compares with the Strad.

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## Paul Kotapish

> I guess....
>  I think it is pointless to argue that tone and playability make a mandolin cost $250,000 as opposed to $9,000.


Kevin, 

Obviously the seemingly over-the-top $250,000 fee associated with a premium Gibson F-5 Loar is based largely on rarity and demand. I'm sure status fits into for some owners, too, but I'm pretty sure that collectors and speculators have more to do with the astronomical prices than status seekers do. 

But the is-it-worth-five-times-as-much question can't extend meaninfully to objects that also have extreme historical and collectible value. At a certain point the intrinsic merit of a desireable object is trumped by the value associated with sheer rarity.

It might be worth asking about contemporary instruments, though. 

I was responding to Andy's remark that the only possible explanation for the difference in costs between a $5,000 mandolin (a stock Gibson or Collings F-5, for example) and a $25,000 mandolin (an open-market Dudenbostel Gilchrist, Nugget or top-end Gibson Distressed Master Model) is prestige value--an assertion that I think is mostly nonsense.

No doubt some folks pay a premium for prestige, and some modest players with big pocketbooks undboubtedly buy better instruments than they actually can master, but most serious players are just trying to find the best possible instrument for their needs and budget. 

I don't think I've ever heard anyone argue that those top-tier instruments are five times better than their more reasonably priced counterparts--there isn't a lockstep relationship between the caliber of craft and tone production in an instrument and its cost--one pays a disproportionate amount for that final 10% of quality. 

Once again, if you don't hear, see, or need the that final incremental difference, O frabjous day.

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## Mark Seale

> Seems to be a classic issue of branding. Branding shows itself anytime a person gets psychologically motivated (by advertising, a neighbors opinion, etc) to purchase one product over another. One surefire motivation for buying art (which includes mandolins) is how well established the artist is. If a mandolin maker with a family to support remains in business for 1 year, its not the same miracle as the mandolin maker with a family who remains building for 5 years, or 20 years. Branding is thus a cumulative process. 
> 
> Quality also develops cumulatively over time. All the mandolin makers who get top dollar have been doing it for a while longer than the middle tier, so on so forth. And in every case, at some point, some famous player chose that's maker's instrument. That event boosted branding. In such a way, by observing these benchmarks on the path, the evolution of an expensive instrument becomes  a predictable process. Yet it remains difficult to predict the future high end, without the benefit of hindsight. Playing and judging all the instruments of the current middle tier, is far less of a help than charting the benchmarks on the path. 
> 
> If you agree with this, then you probably also have to agree that there's  actually only a rather small chance that an established 5 year maker makes a lesser sounding mandolin than a 20 year maker. The 5 year maker is still in business which means he's already achieved the major miracle in his exceedingly difficult profession. His future instruments will only become incremently better over the next years, and only with a certain few of those instruments.
> 
> I have noticed many times since becoming a member of the Cafe, an ongoing and brisk promotion, by players and owners, (not always the same thing) of the middle and lower range of builders. Some owners are, of course, doing this only to praise great mandolin craft. Just as many exhibit the subtle signs of promoting  the brand, meaning their own investment, with the gamble and hope that enough praise will eventually transform a Mowry, BRW, Poe mandolin into a Nugget, Dude, Gilchrist  mandolin, given another fifteen years time. I have high hopes for my own BRW, and I don't think anybody's completely immune from looking at their small builder instrument as an investment, as well as a thing to play. 
> 
> I do believe that in all respects besides branding,  it is already the equal of the high end.


I would suggest reading the Mike Compton interview and his review of the various Gilchrists he has owned over the years and their quality.  I think you'll find that even for someone that has been building for 30 years, he is still searching for the sound and the next one is always his favorite.  My hat's off to him.  And it's not just about the sound.  Its the ultimate playability of his instruments.  They are a dream to hold and note.

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## Jim Nollman

Reading these posts its clear that there's at least four discussions here. One is about value. One is about aesthetics. One is about mandolins. and one is about the subset of bluegrass mandolins. In the last case the BMW/Honda analogy does make a little sense, but not a lot. Why? Because a lot of people will still choose the Honda. I once owned a BMW, and after a year it seemed a waste of money to repair, and mostly a vanity kind of thing. These days I drive a Prius and a Ford truck.

When we widen the scope to include oval-holes, pancakes, jazz, celtic music, rock and roll, it becomes a discussion of what do we pay to acquire the best sounding tools to make music? And what do we drive if we have a big garden and live on a farm, A ford truck or a BMW? 

I'd love to play a Gilchrist for a few months. Never had much interest in owning a Loar beyond its resale value. If I was a touring pro I'd feel differently. Not being a touring pro, my tastes are less expensive, but no less refined. I'll never want a touring bus. I consider good gas mileage a thing of beauty.  

I'm feeling wary to turn erudite on all of you, but someone once said that we have art so that we shall not be destroyed by the truth. No one's wrong here, because no one's telling the truth. One man's branding, is another man's love interest.

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## Chuck Naill

> Okay guys, feel free to differ with me, but the more I read about this kind of thing, the more convinced I am that it's a kind of craving for validation.
> 
> I'm a lifelong musician, and I've played many mandolins, including some of those you're discussing here. I just can't agree that a $25,000 mandolin, no matter who made it, is _five times,_ or even two times, as good as a fine $5000 handmade instrument. If it does seem to be, it's most likely you've convinced yourselfconsciously or unconsciouslythat it is, figuring that because this instrument costs _this_ much, it must be _that_ much "better" than the others (another odd human trait).
> 
> Let's face it: What you're paying for is prestige. It must be a tribal thing, like getting to wear the best feathers in your headdress. It's a conspicuous indication that you had the power to buy a more expensive mando than anyone else's at the jam (or had the power to convince someone to give you the power and pay it back in installments).
> 
> If that's important to you, that's super. But I'd much rather be able to enjoy 4 or 5 (!) other great instruments, all with different personalities, than to have one wackily expensive instrument I'm afraid to take out of the house without hiring a security guard.


I have read it suggested that the better players are less hindered by the high end mandolins. 

Perhaps this is a relative argument between the different requirements of traditional fiddle music vs classical virtuoso compositions. 

From what I have recently read, classical music is written to be played on the G and E strings and in the upper positions. Perhaps the better mandolin players require a product that can perform to the demands of the music and for which they have the skills necessary to preform. 

However, what do classical mandolins player use? Do they play F style custom mandolins or  the neoclassical instruments?

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## mtucker

> Absoluely, however, most of Steve's mandolins are x-braced if I remember correctly which is a clear departure from Loar construction.


Ken,
So not true. Just as Mark and Art describe.




> The current sound and the sound he is working toward is red spruce and sugar maple with tone bars.





> So..tbguy...you don't think Steve Gilchrist has measured Loars like other luthiers?
> I thought he was considered one of the best at Loar repair & restoration, down to 
> sniffing them through the f holes. I suspect his measurements started there when he
> did repair work for Gruhn's. I think having built over 600 mandolins is part of what
> make's Steve's instruments so special. And the fact that he is a good Monroe style player,
> factors in too.



Besides a few folks here, have any of you, actually spent some time with one of Steve's mandolins?

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## wsugai

In order for a mando to "hold its value" (technically, at least), it has to appreciate at a minimum of the long-term rate of inflation. The current annual inflation rate is very low, but over the long term, it adds in a substantial factor. A Gilchrist purchased today for $20,000 would have to be saleable at about $27,258 in ten years at 3.5% annual inflation (not an unreasonable number). Is that a reasonable expectation, after all the dings and whatnot it would accumulate over ten years?

I've got an equities portfolio that has earned an annual average of 6% over the past 17 years and, while you can't play equities and hold an audience for any length of time, you can at least liquidate them in a couple of days.  This raises the other issue about high-end instruments as investments -- their liquidity. Like residential homes, the higher the price, the smaller the market. Thus, the greater the appreciation rate, the longer it will take to sell, and the true market for them is already relatively small (those Loars at Elderly and Gruhn have been there for a long time now, and we all drool, but I expect them to be there for a long time to come, unless they get pulled, and not necessarily because they got sold).

I've bought and sold old American instruments for many years now and I stopped thinking of them as true "investments" a long time ago. I buy them because I love messing with them and generally sell them to buy other instruments that I can't seem to live without. If I make a few bucks on them, and I try to price my purchases conservatively, I consider myself fortunate. But that's been more the exception than the rule. My $.02.

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