# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Mando bass

## truckplayer

About six months ago I saw a mando bass in a music shop. Never knew such an instrument existed. It was different. 

Does anyone have experience with one? What are the pluses and minuses?

thanks

Juan

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## mrmando

Plus: Every mandolin orchestra within a 500-mile radius will beat a path to your door. 
Plus: You can keep your other instruments inside it.
Plus: It floats.
Plus: It sounds great if you are sitting about 3 feet directly in front of the soundhole.
Minus: It can barely be heard anywhere else.
Minus: No consensus on what the price should be, so people sell them for anything from $4K to $10K.

If you are not going to get this one from your local music shop, please let me know which shop it is. I have a friend who would like to buy her own mandobass.

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## Jim Garber

I had one many years ago, but had to sell it because in the dry heat of my New York apartment the huge back would split over and over. It cost me a bunch in repairs. Other than that it makes a good conversation piece.

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## truckplayer

FYI~

The mando bass is a 1930's Kalamazoo F hole style, selling price is $3,500. 

The shop is a bluegrass music shop called Picker's Supply, located in Frederickburg, Virginia. (Web site: pickerssupply.com; email: pickers@pickerssupply.com)

Juan

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## Tim2723

The only piece of advice I ever received about them is that the ones with natural tops are more prized.  As I understood it, the majority of these were made with opaque finishes to cover the many checks and fills in the wood, as it is hard to get a perfect piece of wood that big.  This was supposedly even worse in their heyday which was after WWI when really good wood was at a premium.  Of the four I've seen in person, three of them were black. Not that there's anything wrong with solid colors, it's just that natural ones are rarer and get bigger bux. Or so I'm told, so take all that for what it cost you.

I visited Picker's Supply once several years ago.  Nice shop and I'm glad to hear they're still around.

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## mrmando

Ah, I think I've seen that one. That's horribly overpriced. I don't think I'd give more than $800-1,000 for it. The "real Gibson" ones are more desirable. As for dark vs. natural tops, I dunno ... So many of them have had to be patched up over the years. If I had a choice between a clean one with a dark top and a repaired one with a natural top, I'd take ...

the one with better tone & projection.

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## DryBones

> FYI~
> 
> The mando bass is a 1930's Kalamazoo F hole style, selling price is $3,500. 
> 
> The shop is a bluegrass music shop called Picker's Supply, located in Frederickburg, Virginia. (Web site: pickerssupply.com; email: pickers@pickerssupply.com)
> 
> Juan


Plus, They keep it in the front display window of the  shop. Not too sure how that's going to affect the wood, longterm.  :Disbelief:

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## mandroid

Marc Silber put up a list of stuff in the classifieds, included a mando bass,  east bay area folks..

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## Steve Ostrander

I remember seeing one at Elderly a couple of years ago. Pretty sure it was black.

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## man dough nollij

Here's one at Intermountain Guitar and Banjo in SLC, UT:

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## allenhopkins

I wonder if they think that turning it into a "Tut Taylor road sign" increases or decreases its value?

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## Gutbucket

Could be worse. It could say "Eat st Joes".

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## Mike Herlihy

Or - *"Vote for Wendell Wilkie"*

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## Gutbucket

Hey, hey, hey! No politics.

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## violmando

Listen, if they put that Tut Taylor mb up for sale at a reasonable price, not ridiculous, I'd buy it--I don't care about it.  Yvonne

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## allenhopkins

> Listen, if they put that Tut Taylor mb up for sale at a reasonable price, not ridiculous, I'd buy it--I don't care about it.


They want $4,200 for it, which I think may be closer to "ridiculous" than "reasonable."

Still, supply and demand -- but they've had it for quite a while...

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## Bernie Daniel

There is also a mandobass for sale at the Guitar Center in Cincinnati -- its not a Gibson though -- I forget what brand.  But I think they are asking around $4K for it.  Thanks but no thanks.

I'd rather have a very nice black-faced 1917 F2 that is hanging on the wall on the other side of the room for the same $$$.

It's one of the best sounding F2's I've ever played -- very strong and bell like.

Yes I'm a bit OT here but I did include some MB also. :Laughing:

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## Burgh

I have a Gibson Mandobass that I play with the Pittsburgh Mandolin Orchestra, am just having fun.

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## bluesmandolinman

would love to hear one of these MBs

I have read many comments here about their volume ( not very loud ) but I don´t have a clue how they sound. Is any of you MB owners able to post a soundclip ????? Or are there any recordings I could buy that has a MB on it ?

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## Eddie Sheehy

I'm going to try to put strings on a billboard and sell it for $10k...

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## violmando

The Dayton Mandolin Orch is doing an exchange concert with the Kalamazoo Orch. in  3 weeks--wonder if they have one?  LOVE to try it out! Yvonne

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## Burgh

bluesmandolinman,  Will work on the soundclip.  It might take a few weeks.

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## bluesmandolinman

> bluesmandolinman,  Will work on the soundclip.  It might take a few weeks.


Cool ! Thanks in advance !
 :Grin:

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## Jon Hall

To hear some sound clips with mandobass listen to samples of Steve Hartz's albums: "By the Muddy Angelina" and "Settlers In the Western Woods".

www.mysteryridge.com

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## goaty76

Here's a pic of my mandobass.  I got it from Bran at Picker's Supply.  He was a great guy to deal with and I was tempted to get the Kalamazoo one too.  Then I would be "that guy".......the one with two mandobasses in his living room.  If you are into early Gibsons like I am, a collection really isn't complete with out one....and a harp guitar...and a style O....and a K-4...and........

Phil

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## violmando

WOW! That's really a beauty; most of the pics I've seen the finish hasn't been nearly so pretty.  Any details, like year, of your baby?  Did you get it in that condition or have to do alot of work on it? As a double bassist, I'd love to have one.  My husband and I already own 2 upright basses and a tamburitzan bass between us, so we DON' T need it, but the fact that they are hard to find and often overpriced for their condition is going to keep me from getting one anyway....It would be neat for the DMO to have one, though.

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## allenhopkins

Goaty76, I assume your "J" has been refinished?  I've only seen them in black, "pumpkin," and a somewhat lighter-than-pumpkin shade...

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## goaty76

Yeah, it's a great piece.  It's a 1918.  It's in the condition I got it in.  It has some body cracks, some worse than others but all together not that bad shape.  The finish is original but does look a bit darker in person.  I believe the only thing not original on it are the two extending end pieces (one on the bottom for playing upright and one on the side for playing more like a guitar).  They are replacements.

Phil

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## Darryl Wolfe

That is Tut Taylors own sign work on that mandobass.  I remember seeing it years and years ago at Tuts...probably GTR

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## Jkf_Alone

I saw a mandobass played in a polka band on Rick Steves Europe. Couldn't hear the thing though, the accordion and the yodeling was too loud.

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## truckplayer

To Goaty 76

Since both mando basses were in Pickers and you checked them out, how they compare? (Sound? Projection?, etc).

What was the deciding factor in buying the Gibson? What do you think of the Kalamazoo?

Truckplayer

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## goaty76

Truckplayer,

To tell you truth I didn't check out the Kalamazoo bass that closely.  I went with the Gibson because that is what I was in the market for.  "The Gibson" name was the selling point on that one.  As far as sound, projection, playabilty.......not the best on these models.  They are fun in their own way but I don't think I would want to play a concert with one ( I'm not a bass player so I don't think I will ever have to face that problem).  I got it to add to a collection of Gibsons and it does look cool in my living room.  If money were not an issue I would love have the Kalamazoo mandobass also, but there are many other items I see myself getting first before a  second mandobass.

Phil

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## truckplayer

Phil,

I thought of getting a mando bass, not for its playability but to have one. I love bass type instruments (I'm an upright bass player). I think it's cool looking and interesting conversation piece. Maybe it would be fun to try playing it.

Great choice in going with the Gibson! 

Truckplayer (Juan)

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## violmando

I know I have seen mandobasses made by Gibson, also in the Kalamzoo label, and a few rare ones by Lyon & Healy and Vega, altho' I forget which mando orchs own them.  What other companies in the PAST made them?  Any pictures of other vintage mandobasses besides Gibsons? I know if I'm lucky enough to get one, it will be a Gibson or Kalamazoo, but I'd like to know what else was out there...
another upright bassist, Yvonne

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## goaty76

I just wanted to add that I think the Kalamazoo is a much rarer instrument than the Gibson Mandobass.  It's only the second or third one I have seen.  It was probably produced in much lower numbers as it was made well after the mandolin craze of earlier years.  However, lower production numbers doesn't always mean greater value.  The saying is "It's all about supply and demand".  I disagree.  I think "It's all about demand....period"

Phil

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## BradKlein

Here's a picture of the Kalamazoo that started this thread, from the store's site. I'm sure that they ARE much rarer than the Gibsons.  

It's interesting just for being an f-hole instrument, and I wonder if it's braced like a traditional bass. Does anyone have a photo of the headstock of this, or another Kazoo? I'd like to see the whole instrument, but don't want to put the store to any trouble.

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## Marc Berman

> Here's a picture of the Kalamazoo that started this thread, from the store's site. I'm sure that they ARE much rarer than the Gibsons.  
> 
> It's interesting just for being an f-hole instrument, and I wonder if it's braced like a traditional bass. Does anyone have a photo of the headstock of this, or another Kazoo? I'd like to see the whole instrument, but don't want to put the store to any trouble.


Brad check out http://www.pickerssupply.com/BASSES/BASS PAGE.html it has photos of the headstock (front and back). Just move the cursor to the front photo and you'll see the back.

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## violmando

If I had the money, I might go for it, pretty cool looking, even if it isn't as old as the Gibsons....Yvonne

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## BradKlein

Thanks Marc.

'Elegant' is not the word that comes to mind when looking at those f-holes.  But, it's kind of cute in a homely sort of Kalamazoo way.  And it's reminder of the thousands of early 20th c. orchestras and ensembles that are responsible for most of the vintage mandolins that we get to play with today.

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## Martin Jonas

As far as soundclips/videos of a mandobass are concerned, check out Hillary James (Simon Mayor's wife).  She plays mandobass in a duo with Simon and in their small mando ensemble, the Mandolinquets.

Here is a Youtube clip, complete with mandobass.

Martin

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## violmando

That mandobass is a modern one that sounds MUCH better than the old ones--NO COMPARISON, folks!  And actually, for the money, it would be a better buy, but I believe the maker is in the UK--anyone remember?  I had a link on my old pc.....Yvonne

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## PseudoCelt

Hillary James' mandobass was made by Robin Greenwood. There's a photo on Simon Mayor's website and a couple more on the builder's website

Patrick

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## jeff mercer

Freedom Guitar in San Diego have/ had a Gibson Mandobass listed in the latest Vintage Guitar Magazine..for $9950 !!!  :Whistling:  Looked up their site ( FREEDOMGUITAR.COM ) but couldn't find a photo, nor a listing or description
...God forbid it actually SOLD for that price ?

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## truckplayer

Close to $10,000 for a mando bass? That would be crazy!

truckplayer

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## mrmando

Someone just dug a 1913 mandobass out of an attic and sold it for $6.5K on eBay in less than 24 hrs, so hey.

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## BradKlein

What's with this after-market addition to that mandobass?  Is this something that is done to bass fiddles?  To protect the bridge? or to rest the player's hand?

picture:

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## allenhopkins

> Someone just dug a 1913 mandobass out of an attic and sold it for $6.5K on eBay in less than 24 hrs, so hey.


From what I've read and heard, these (relatively) high prices are more attributable to the rarity and the "curb appeal" of these giant mandos, than to their musical or acoustical qualities.

I'd love to have one, but I'd probably play it infrequently.

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## mrmando

> What's with this after-market addition to that mandobass?  Is this something that is done to bass fiddles?  To protect the bridge? or to rest the player's hand?


Not after-market. That is indeed an arm rest. It's original to the instrument, but you hardly ever see a Gibson mandobass that still has one.

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## violmando

Sound wise, most double basses beat out most mandobasses ANY day; it is the rarity, collectability and that unique look that makes the price of Gibson and other VINTAGE mandobasses so high. It would be neat to have one, but in these tough times, I can't see paying that much for one. I wonder if the eBay one was the one that was offered to me for $6K?  I just don't have that much money for something that I can't eat or live on right now. Too bad, but that's how it is. Sad, huh?
I do have a contrabass domra coming, but it was under $1K and it's coming with a bass domra as well. Priorities!  Yvonne

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## crazymandolinist

I want to see someone figure out how to tune one in fifths, then get D'Adario or Martin to make strings for it.

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## mrmando

The logical fifths tuning is CGDA, an octave below mandocello. There are a few pro bassists who tune this way: the late American jazz bassist Red Mitchell and classical soloist Joel Quarrington, for example. You might need a slightly lighter top string and a heavier bottom string; the other two strings could probably stay the same.

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## violmando

I wouldn't do that to one of those vintage instruments, tho'--they weren't made for that and it might be too much stress. Someone should start making copies to be tuned that way, altho' most upright bassists wouldn't want to play them....They'd have to have a shorter string length for your hand to be able to make the stretches needed for the notes. Just make it about the size of a 1/2 size bass but with a DEEP body....Yvonne

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## mrmando

But you could calculate the tensions from a standard set of mandobass strings, then calculate what gauges you would need for the new tuning in order to keep those tensions constant. And in a perfect world, strings would be available in those gauges. 

In CGDA tuning, only the high string is tuned higher (G to A). The D string remains the same and the other two strings are tuned lower. So, at least theoretically, fifths tuning needn't add tension at all. It might even reduce the overall amount of tension! 

The fact that the mandobass is fretted would help with some of the shifting/fingering issues. You should read Quarrington's essay on fifths tuning (linked above) ... according to him, it does require re-learning one's approach to the instrument, but once one has done that, the fingering issues aren't any more problematic than with standard tuning.

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## Burgh



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## goaty76

I just noticed that the 1916 Mandobass listed at Marc Silber music for $8000 is on hold.  

Phil

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## mrmando

Yeah, the bass from Silber will be on its way to a friend of mine shortly. Not sure how much I'm allowed to say, but I should have the opportunity to play that bass soon.

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## Bernie Daniel

FYI Mandobassists -- 

I noticed this Sunday that the mandobass at the Cincinnati Guitar Center has dropped down to around $3400.  

I meant to check out the manufacturer but get too excited about a gold plated Weyman tenor banjo from the '30's and forgot to look.

It was made by a now extinct American company -- common name.  Might be able to find it on-line the the GC inventory.  

(Yvonne if  you are think about checking it out its moved now from Forest Fair mall to over near the Tri-County Costco.)

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## truckplayer

I understand that the logical tuning is CGDA. Can a mando bass be tuned like an upright bass?

Juan

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## truckplayer

I wonder how a mando bass would compare in sound with a 1/2 size bass?

Juan

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## Martin Jonas

> I understand that the logical tuning is CGDA. Can a mando bass be tuned like an upright bass?


Not only _can_ it be tuned like an upright bass, that is its normal standard tuning.  Very few, if any, mandobasses were tuned CGDA.

Martin

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## mrmando

Yeah, I was discussing fifths tuning only theoretically. I don't know any mandobass player who actually uses it. 

I'm curious about this Cincinnati mandobass. Not many companies other than Gibson made them. Is it a Vega? Lyon & Healy? Meyer?

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## violmando

You can go for it. I'm out of work and don't have the money for one right now. I wish I did, though...Yvonne

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## Burgh



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## mrmando

Burgh, your lips are moving but I can't hear a word. Or is it just me?

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## mrmando

Ah, here is what Burgh's been trying to say:

So is it for sale?

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## truckplayer

Burgh,

What's it like playing a mandobass? How does it compare to playing an upright? 

Juan

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## Burgh

Thanks Mrmando.  I was having trouble posting the photo.  It's not for sale, was given to me by my grandfather.  I'm having fun learning how to play it with the Pittsburgh Mandolin Orchestra.  Noted orchestra conductor, Mr. Charlie Rappaport, is on the left of the photo. I'm also working on a sound bite for bluesman.  Merry Christmas all.

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## bluesmandolinman

> I'm also working on a sound bite for bluesman.  Merry Christmas all.


Thanks again for your kindness. If possible I would apreciate to hear also 1 soundfile with only the mandobass without other instruments so that I can listen better to the bass without ignoring the other instruments. 

btw I really dig that brownface mandobass you have there. I like it better than the black ones ( which I think is much more common ) 

NO NO ..... I am not jealous  :Cool:

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## Bernie Daniel

> mrmando:I'm curious about this Cincinnati mandobass. Not many companies other than Gibson made them. Is it a Vega? Lyon & Healy? Meyer?


Sorry I did not see your question.  I will be in that part of town today and will check it out if I can get through the shopping traffic!  I will PM you as well.

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## violmando

Bernie, I'd like to know the make too--just for my own curiosity. You can email me at home if you'd rather. But I know it's still icy here in Yellow Springs, so be careful, Yvonne

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## musicofanatic

Years ago, a band I was in at the time played McCabe's in LA. The dressing room they put us in also seemed to be their mandobass storage room, and there were  two in there. I have a photo somewhere of the fiddle player and I throwing down on a heavy-metal mandobass duet. They didn't sound like much, but it was fun.

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## Bernie Daniel

I took a closer look at the mandobass in the Guitar Center in Cincinnati today.  It is a 1932 Regal and it is fretless (are all mandobasses so?). This one is in decent shape.  It looks to me like it might have had frets once but that they were removed and filled in?  Not sure about that.

Here are some pics of it.

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## Bernie Daniel

More pics -- it was pretty dark in there!

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## Bernie Daniel

Two more!

Oh BTW they are asking $3450 for it but for sure they will deal on that.

There you  have it.

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## mrmando

A standard mandobass, if there is any such thing, has frets. This Regal looks like what's sometimes called a "church bass." There's no way I'd pay what they're asking, but that's just me.

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## violmando

It's not really a mandobass--I forget what Regal called these.  They ARE cool, but they are used more like upright basses and they sound better than most mandobasses.  I don't think that is the original bridge, though...they usually had a flat bridge like a guitar; I imagine the front has sunken in.

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## mrmando

Burgh, tell us more about that rhinoceros toenail you're using for a pick.

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## Bernie Daniel

> violmando: It's not really a mandobass--I forget what Regal called these. They ARE cool, but they are used more like upright basses and they sound better than most mandobasses. I don't think that is the original bridge, though...they usually had a flat bridge like a guitar; I imagine the front has sunken in.


You may well be right -- as to top sinkage I did not notice any -- it there is any its rather slight.  I "thumbed" it a bit -- the lower and high strings are not too impressive but the the middle two strings put out an impressive volume of "bass sound".  

I looked pretty close and I'm our the opinion that at one time that fretboard had frets.  There were clearly channels cut for frets and they are now filled in with what looks to be wood filler which was sanded smooth.

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## violmando

Yep, I think you're right--those Regals DO have frets.  The fellow who runs the guitar/jewelery store here in YS, Rita Caz, has one of those and when I saw one of eBay for around $2K awhile back, he said that's about the most they are worth, so I think this guy is still high for his. It is NOT a mandobass, I just can't remember what Regal called them.  They are later than the mandobasses and aren't as highly collectable.  Still cool, though.  I have a tamburitzan bass that is VERY similar in design, but I didn't pay that much for it, either.  It is also fretted.  Yvonne

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## Bernie Daniel

> violmando: so I think this guy is still high for his.


Yes I think those Guitar Centers as always too high on their vintage instruments -- but they do deal -- and they will also trade vintage instruments which is kind of intersting.

For example the Cincinnati store also has a 1913 black-faced F2 --with original top finish, Handel tuners, one-piece bridge and even the original pick guard and with clamp in decent shape.  

But the rest of the mando is not so good - a number of BIG (deep) chips and gouges, the back has obviously been oversprayed and both the small AND large curls on the headstock are broken off and missing.  This is a seriously mistreated instrument.

The GC still wants over $4K for it -- if it was an F-4 that would be high for that kind of beat up shape.  I played it however a bit and it still sounds dandy.

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## Burgh

Burgh, tell us more about that rhinoceros toenail you're using for a pick. 

Right--My main pick is a hospital grade plastic 2.25 x 3 in with a small indentation for my middle finger to help grip the top.  The pick of choice used to be a piece of leather.  I've made several leather picks but they just don't feel right yet.  The plastic is about 3/16 in thick and tapered where it strikes the strings.

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## jeff mercer

Regal called it the "Basso-Guitar". It's interesting..Gibson and Lyon & Healy were obviously targeting Mandolin Orchestras with the Mandobass ( L & H called theirs a Bass Mando ), but I wonder what market Regal saw for the Basso-guitar when they advertised them in the mid 30's ?.

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## mrmando

> I wonder what market Regal saw for the Basso-guitar when they advertised them in the mid 30's ?.


Probably the same market Dan Aykroyd saw for the Basso-Matic.

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## Jim Garber

I highly doubt that that Regal was fretless. After all the reason for a mandobass was to make it easier than a std upright. Some bass player just felt better habving it fretless. 

Church basses were sort of folk cellos and were mostly used in New England in the 19th century. They were more like folks instruments. I remember at one of the New York Christie's auctions there were a number of church basses from a collector for sale and they looked like cartoon versions of cellos. More info here:
http://www.easthamptonviolin.com/eas...lin/early.html

I attached a photo.

Also, I found a photo of me playing my Gibson in 1984. It is long gone due to too many repairs needed after the back split in the New York apartment dryness. That bridge is not original and was actually compensated with ebony strips. It was also missing the armrest.

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## delsbrother

I've seen several photos of Filipino stringbands (perhaps adapted from Rondalla groups) using bass-like instruments like that Regal. Some of them are equipped with spikes and appear to be played upright-style. Maybe the market for them was driven by the bandurria family instead of the mando?

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## Jim Garber

The former bass player in the New York Mandolin Orchestra actually used a contrabass balalaika -- he said he tried the Gibson mandobass but it never quite gave him the volume. He used a square piece of shoe leather for a pick and got serious volume from that one instrument. He was quite the player, too.




> Burgh, tell us more about that rhinoceros toenail you're using for a pick. 
> 
> Right--My main pick is a hospital grade plastic 2.25 x 3 in with a small indentation for my middle finger to help grip the top.  The pick of choice used to be a piece of leather.  I've made several leather picks but they just don't feel right yet.  The plastic is about 3/16 in thick and tapered where it strikes the strings.

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## Jim Garber

Now that I see a couple more, maybe the bridge of mine was original. Here are two more.

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## violmando

I bought a bass berde(tamburitza bass) for the same reason--it uses a leather pick--but it is TOO heavy to carry around alot. Someday I'll get around to coming up with some kind of cart for it. My contrabass domra hasn't arrived yet, so I have NO idea what kind of sound it's going to have; I don't think they are as loud as the contrabass balalaikas, though.  Neither are real easy to come across! Nor for me to store--we already have the berde and 2 basses (a 20's Pfretschner and a 40's King) hanging around in our corners!  The berde and the domra do have frets, tho'. Yvonne

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## Jim Garber

Tamara Volskaya's Russian Carnival group uses a contrabass balalaika.

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## jeff mercer

Jim,
Mandobasses & vintage (baritone) ukuleles !

Man, that's MY kinda music store  :Smile:  !
Where did you find that photo ?

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## Jim Garber

I found the photo here. The instruments are at the Guitar and Amp Center in Harrisonburg, VA. These might be in the Museum section. I have never been there, but might if I am ever down that way.

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## violmando

Hey, I just ran into a mandobass on eBay made in the '30's in PA by a luthier named Oscar Bowser.  Anyone familiar with these? No, I don't have the money to buy it, but it looks quite similar to the Gibsons in design (unlike alot of other "off brands") and I just wondered if anyone had ever played one.
It's in an eBay store right now--sorry I didn't capture the page, but here's the picture. I save alot of bass pics for my screen saver!  Yes, if I won the lottery.....I'd have to build a MUCH bigger house!!!!   Yvonne

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## Jim Garber

The *look* is similar to Gibson but it is a flat top and back. Here is the eBay auction.

Probably a one-off by a decent homespun luthier. Here is what it says on the posting:



> Unsigned but guaranteed an original mando-bass made in the 1930's in York Pa made by custom builder/luthier Oscar Bowser. He didn't make many in this form--most were an octaganol like bottom. This one was purchased directly from Oscar in the 1960's.


I would love to see an octagonal one.

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## Burgh

Found a Gibson Mando Bass (15394) for sale at Hollowood Music in McKees Rocks, PA.  The back needs to be glued and it's missing one turn key. They would not give a price.

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## Jim Garber

Not so easy to find a tuning key for one of these. Maybe a bass tuner would work, possibly. Why would they list it but not give you a price? Sorts strange, unless they don't want to sell or don't know what it is worth and are now scurrying around to find out the book value.

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## Burgh

It's not really listed anywhere, just sitting in their store.  I think that it's been there for quite some time and because of the extensive repair work needed, they don't know what it is worth.

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## mrmando

Sounds like the perfect "make an offer" situation.

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## toddjoles

I stopped into Freedom Guitar in San Diego to look at their Mandobass today.  It is boxed up and in the back.  They wouldn't get it out to view or play.  They wouldn't even give quote me a list price.  They did show me some very out of bad out of focus Pics.  The top appeared to be brown, but it was very hard to tell with all the smoke damage and melted varnish drops all over the top. 

Thats right it had been in a fire.  When I asked about the finish issues I was told it had been left leaned up against a fireplace or something.  This thing would need a complete refinish which of course would destroy most of the collector value.

They gave me the impression that they really did not want to sell this instrument at all.  By the way, it seemed that all their old oddball mandos were way over priced.  Kel Kroyden, Hauser etc... They even had a Washburn bowl back with a broken rib (not at the joint, cross the rib!) and badly repaired listed at $399.  Dude it was just a wall hanger!!!

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## Jim Garber

You would think if they wanted to keep it as a "mascot" that they would at least display it. Did you ask them how much? Do you want it? 

Get a wad of cash of what you want to pay and go in and say, here, gimme. They go for around $4K or so and for one that is in fair condition I would at least half that or more.

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## toddjoles

I did ask about the price, but the guy said he it wasn't listed. I donly personally have a need for this and the San Diego mandolin orchestra allready has one in great condition.  If one in good condition is worth 4K what would would a smoke damaged one with melted globs of varnish Al over the top be worth?  How much to refinish?  How much loss in vintage/collectors value for the damage and refinish?

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## mrmando

$1,500-$2K. I might buy it for $1,500, strip it and paint it purple.

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## Jim Garber

If it is structurally sound and you could get it for cheap, the "vintage value" is irrelevant for a player's instrument. I like mrmando's idea. The collector's value is already gone. Why are these guys even keeping it in a box in the back of their store? A musician could use it somewhere. Do they think they have a serious treasure? 

Someone from the Cafe should buy it and rescue it from obscurity. Not me, of course.

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## toddjoles

Jim, I've got a call out to them to set an appointment to see this bass. Hopefully they will call back.


 I'll let everyone know what I find out about this.

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## goaty76

I am not sure if this is the same instrument but I believe Freedom Guitar had one listed in their ads in Vintage Guitar magazine.  The price in the ad was $9999 if recall.  Seemed high but if it was in pristine condition maybe, but considering the damage.....

Phil

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## toddjoles

Well I took alook at the mandobass at Freedom guitars in San Diego.  They keep it stored up stairs in a bass box.  It is not on public display, it took me three trips and an unreturned phone call before they would get it down for me.

The bass didn't look as bad in person as it did in pics, but it does need a good cleaning.  It was left near a fireplace at some point in it's life and the finish has bubbled and melted into globbules on the top.  The top appears to have been stained brown with mahogany stained back and sides and neck.  It has a V-neck and it does have the original tortoise shell tail piece (rusted and dirty but still holding together).  A few other issues with this one is that the end pin is not original and has been replaced with a hand made wooden end pin.  The side pin is completely missing and has a big chip out of the hole.  It took me a few minutes to realize that the 2 sets of 2 screws on each side were for a missing arm rest. The strings were ancient and rusted so we didn't try to tune it all the way to pitch,  but it did sound pretty good.  

The price listed is $9,999 (yeah thats right!)  The owner completely ignored my coment that it was worth about $6k inexellent condition and mentioned that it was the only mandobass he had ever scene in person and incredibly rare!  He wanted an offer but with all the issues, it's difficult to offer much at all for it.

What should you pay for something like this with the finish and endpin issues?  Should you restore it or just play it in all it's ugly glory?   It's a difficult call, this really is something that should be played not collected and stored.

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## Jim Garber

> The price listed is $9,999 (yeah thats right!)  The owner completely ignored my coment that it was worth about $6k inexellent condition and mentioned that it was the only mandobass he had ever scene in person and incredibly rare!  He wanted an offer but with all the issues, it's difficult to offer much at all for it.


Sometimes it is hard to argue with someone like that. he may have priced it high just so it would not sell. If I were you, I would tell him what you were willing to pay and tell him to call you if he is ready to sell. Otherwise, at that price, I am sure that it will sit there. There is a difference between rare and desirable. Stratocasters are not rare at all -- they were always very popular guitars, but some go for ridiculous prices primarily because there are people willing to pay for them. In any case there are other mandobasses out there and you could email some links to this guy to show him more reasonable prices. 

or just forget about it.

Good luck!

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## joec

Hey Folks, 
I just wanted to pop in and turn the conversation a little bit with a few questions from the perspective of a luthier who is working on integrated mando family design (through a current grant and residency). 
Does the mandobass complete the mandolin family?  Is it necessary?
Is the problem a matter of ergonomic awkwardness, lackluster sound or a potent combo of the two?  Mismatched scale/register/body size?  
And the bottom line:
Does it deserve to be re-designed or left to go extinct?  
If so, what are some improvements from a players perspective?  Acoustically, I'd imagine properly designed and placed F holes and something more than transverse braces might help for starters.  And since we're talking about a dinosaur here, I'd think that all options could on the table--body size, scale, tuning etc.  
So far in my work, I've stopped at the 'cello, assuming the bass wasn't worth the trouble.  But, I've been surprised before--who knew the piccolo mando could be so much fun...
thoughts?

Joe

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## mrmando

Hm. Someone who's seen only one mandobass in person simply needs to get out more. We've got a couple up here we can show him. There's one on the wall at Gryphon in Palo Alto, one in Craigdarroch Castle in Victoria, B.C., etc.

There's also one that has made the rounds of Guitar Center stores on the West Coast. I've seen it both in Seattle and L.A. It also has a $10K price tag; I asked about it once and was told it belonged to the owner of Guitar Center and was being treated more as a display instrument than as an item seriously for sale. Though I suppose if I showed up with 10 large and really wanted it, they _might_ let it go...

On the Freedom Guitars instrument, the endpin and missing armrest are not really big issues in terms of playability, although I suppose they would factor into any _realistic_ calculation of its value. If the finish is the only major problem (no cracks or structural issues), then heck, maybe it's worth as much as $2.5K. It _is_ rare, undoubtedly -- but rarity doesn't automatically equal big bucks. (My baby teeth are even rarer than mandobasses, but there isn't enough demand for me to charge $10K for one of them.) 

If this mandobass didn't have the baked finish and other issues, what does Mr. Freedom think it would be worth? Aren't these listed in the "blue books"? Does Mr. Freedom rely on those books to determine the value of other instruments in his shop, and then throw them out the window when it comes to his mandobass?

One of our orchestra members bought what is probably the nicest Gibson mandobass I have ever seen. Still has the armrest, original hardware, no cracks, no issues. She paid much less than $10K.

As to Joe's question, I think they _are_ worth bringing back if you can solve the volume/projection problem (and make one for less than $10K).

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## allenhopkins

Joe --

Well, there's always this one, the "contra-bass mandolin" at Pamela's Music in the UK.

IMHO the mando-bass as designed by Gibson doesn't have the body size or depth to adequately project the low-range frequencies for which it was designed.  It has, to a lesser extent, the limitations of the acoustic bass guitar, which suffers so much in comparison with the bass fiddle (actually bass viol) that it's nearly useless without electronic amplification.

If you make the mando-bass larger, the question emerges, "Why not just have a bass fiddle?"  Of course there are differences in construction -- no sound post, frets vs. no frets, oval vs. f-holes, etc.  But as you say, the mando-bass is essentially extinct; no one seems to be building them, other than as a luthier's _tour de force_ or _homage_ to the instruments of nearly a century ago.

Not being a builder, and having played a Gibson K model only a couple times, my opinion is largely "from a distance."  For what it's worth, if you wanted to resurrect the concept of a large bass mandolin tuned EADG, I'd suggest taking it in the "bass fiddle" direction: deeper body, longer scale.  A fretted neck would be fine, and whatever you wanted to do about body shape to make it "mandolin-y," but I don't think the "giant A model" Gibson template would produce more than a nostalgic replica of an instrument that never really caught on.

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## violmando

As a double bassist, I really don't think it's worth redesigning....the sound is there in a good double bass.  I have only seen one brand of decent mandobass (from the UK) and I just don't think most folks are really going to spend the money for a decent one anyway.  Some groups have the oldies, partly because the ensemble has owned it for years, partly because some one has collected one; other groups (most) use a string bass, bass guitar, or contrabass balalaika--each would be cheaper and/or easier to get than a newly designed mandobass.  (It would HAVE to be archtop to sound decent and carved tops wouldn't come cheap!)  Just my opinion....

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## Daive

this is quick picture of my 1925 Mandobass which I tried to sell in the 
classified last year I got untold emails about it but mistakenly though
that only collectors would want it almost all emails were from people
who wanted to play it??? this bass has a neck bow which I will fix when
I get time??? I may trade it this year with or without neck fix if anyone
wants it? I do not want to break any posting rules  this is just my input
I play stand up bass and to be honest there is no comparison.

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## mrmando

Daive -- Mandolin orchestras are always looking for good playable mandobasses that don't cost an arm and a leg. Since it's so expensive to ship 'em, I'd either want the repair done first or see a significant price break because it needed work. I remember this being on the Classifieds, but don't remember what you were asking for it.

The other problem is that N.S. might be considered a bit remote from the perspective of most potential buyers ... ever considered a road trip to the States for the purpose of consigning the instrument at someplace like Mandolin Bros.?

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## Daive

I would probably partially deliver the bass to new England? I have not made
the trip from N.S. to Eastcoast U.S. yet I am sure this spring\summer I'll try 
in the classifieds I would rather not consign do to past experiences with
cross border paperwork and getting the instrument to the store?
Dave.

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## bluesguitar

Greetings everyone on this thread. I live in Lancaster, Pa and I have been looking for a mandobass for a few weeks now. I read this whole thread and found it to be very informative. Daive, would you mind emailing  me with the price of your mandobass? Maybe we could work something out. Thanks.

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## Mike Herlihy

> As a double bassist, I really don't think it's worth redesigning....the sound is there in a good double bass.  I have only seen one brand of decent mandobass (from the UK) and I just don't think most folks are really going to spend the money for a decent one anyway.  Some groups have the oldies, partly because the ensemble has owned it for years, partly because some one has collected one; other groups (most) use a string bass, bass guitar, or contrabass balalaika--each would be cheaper and/or easier to get than a newly designed mandobass.  (It would HAVE to be archtop to sound decent and carved tops wouldn't come cheap!)  Just my opinion....


Is there such a beastie as a fretted double bass? I just rather use my Taylor AB3. Great sound and much more portable. The volume is just not there for multi-player.

However, my National Resonator bass rocks!

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## allenhopkins

> Is there such a beastie as a fretted double bass?


Mike Pavone here in Rochester owned a Framus fretted bass fiddle; it was destroyed in a fire, sad to say.

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## man dough nollij

I wonder if anyone has tried making a resonator mandobass to get more volume? Would that be a Mandodobrass? (Pronouced Man-Dodo-Brace.)

A resonator mandocello would be wicked, too. Would you call it a Cellomandobro?

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## violmando

Hey, I'd be willing to try a Cellomandobro--I'm still itching to get my hands on one of those 4 string cello banjos!  Mike, there are some fretted basses; tamburitza groups use them...they are called berdes.  I have one and it is HUGE!  You use a leather plectrum on it.  I got it for our orchestra, but no volunteers....My husband plays his own string bass from his wheelchair.  We'd love to get a second bassist, but the problem is getting some one who reads.  There is shortage of bassists is our area, it seems.  Yvonne

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## mrmando

Jamie Curtis made a resophonic mandocello, and I think Tut Taylor made one too.  

Anyway -- here's a Craig's List ad from someone in NY/NJ seeking a group to play his mandobass with!

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## Jim Garber

"This posting has expired."

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## Jim Garber

Steve Kauffman is selling one of these here. 

NFI, etc.

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## violmando

I bet that goes fast. Yvonne

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## Jim Garber

Yeah. Those mandobasses are flying off the shelves. Big demand.  :Smile:

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## toddjoles

Have you ever seen one with the back off?  http://mimf.com/cgi-bin/WebX?128@75....k.92@.2cb698aa

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## violmando

Todd, THANKS for the link--how fascinating! Yvonne

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## mdelabano

I just posted pictures of the mandobass I just finished building on Mandolincafe.  Look for Mandobass and mandolin family instruments.
Martin

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## Jim Garber

Martin... where did you post these photos? It would help if you linked to them.

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## JEStanek

Here's the link to Martin's instruments.

Jamie

PS Follow his link to the UK You Tube where you can see and hear them or be lazy and click this.

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## Martin Jonas

Is there a mandobass, too?  I only see a mandola and a mandocello (which look very nice).

Martin

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## BillBanks

I have a mandobass and would love to join a mandolin orchestra but can't find one. I also have mandocello, mandolin and harpguitar so if I had enough hands I could just be my own mandolin orhestra. I'm in Kansas City if there's anybody out there that has MO or is interested in starting one. bsbanks@comcast.net
P.S.
Rebecca Pringle also plays mandolin and fiddle would like to join too.

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## violmando

Hate to tell, you, Bill, but most groups don't use harp guitar...no parts for them, but I suppose you could write your own.  Is it a vintage harp guitar?  Love to know more about your mandobass, too.  Ebay has one of those Vega bass things listed, but the fool thinks it's a one-of a kind and wants $14K for buy it now...not worth that at all with the problems it's got!! Yvonne

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## BillBanks

This mandobass is in perfect condition though it's had a couple of repairs over the years. I got it on Ebay several years ago from a music store in Australia. It cost me $800 to have it shipped to the US. They got it from Russian that had been playing it for years in a folk band in the Ukraine so this mandobass has travelled all the way around the world and back again. I paid $4000 for it & was thrilled to get it at that price. I've seen others for less but not in as good condition. 
I don't have any volume problems with it, not as loud as an upright bass but when performing if I need volume I use a guitar soundhole pickup that works perfectly.

The harp guitar is also in mint condition. I like looking at it more than playing it. It takes 3 days just to tune it.

The only instrument I'm missing for my one man MO is an old Gibson mandolla. That would give me the entire set. Thier running about $3000 though and I'm out of money.

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## Jim Garber

> I'm in Kansas City if there's anybody out there that has MO or is interested in starting one. bsbanks@comcast.net
> P.S.
> Rebecca Pringle also plays mandolin and fiddle would like to join too.


Check out this CMSA groups page for groups in the area or contact some nearby ones to see how they recommend starting your own.

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## mrmando

Bill, you might want to get in touch with Jeff Dearinger of the Uptown Mandolin Quartet.

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## Martin Veit

The correct name for these Instruments seems to be "Mandolone".
There are two types of it. 
The shorter ones with a scale length about 90 - 95 cm
and the body is in form of an mandolin.
Because the short ones were not so loud in the bigger orchestras, 
they build later on the larger mandolones with bodys like big guitars 
and a scale lenght about 120cm

Depending on the classical instruments: Violin, Viola, Cello and Contrabass they namend
the mandolin family : mandolin, mandola, mandolon-cello and mandolone.

In German you can get this information from an old textbook (Franz Jahnel: Die Gitarre und ihr Bau)
which is still THE ONE for all of the trainees in Luthier craftmanship.

I found three pieces on youtube with mandolin orchestras using "mandolones"

The Madeira Mandolin Orchestra - in a persian market
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2Y4uBV_3MQ

The Dutch mandolin chamber orchestra HET consort - mazurka 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zj7_xs5J9U

Mandolinenverein TUMA  -  Potpourri Popolare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_UgurgUBc4


... and last but not least the photos from my Mandolon(e)

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## mrmando

Paul Sparks defined the mandolone somewhat differently. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandolone

I don't know about instruments produced in Germany, but the correct term for the American instruments (Gibson, Vega, et al.) is mandobass.

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## Martin Veit

Martin, 

i think, that that the definition from Mr. Sparks is correct,
although he did this in 1995 !
But, you can find instruments for eg. from Calace from the early 1900,
where they called this instruments "Mandolone".

So i guess, the "old" name, in my opinion, may be a little bitte more 
the international correct name.

But be it as it is. They are very interessting instruments at all.

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## mrmando

Sparks' point is that what he calls a mandolone and what most people in the U.S. would call a mandobass are two different instruments. 

I do not know if mandobasses as such were ever really used in continental mandolin orchestras. They don't seem to have been made outside of the UK and U.S. 

How do you tune your mandolone?

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## Martin Veit

Martin,

i think, that Spark is wrong.
There are two kinds of mandolone and i believe that the
Mando-basses from Gibson are only the U.S. Form of mando-basses or mandolones.
Its the same evolution from european kinds of mandolins like the bowlback mandolins
to A- and F-shaped american Forms.

The liuto cantabile is nearly the same kind of instrument,
only with five pairs of strings.


See this Calace Mandolon as a reconstruction of a late 18th Century mandolon
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...is-is-a-beast!

For me, there seems to be a clear line.

...ooh and b.t.w. - my one is tuned E - A - D - G  like a normal double-bass.

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## Bill Snyder

Mandobasses only have four strings.

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## Martin Veit

Guys,

right now, you can get one at ebay.de

http://www.ebay.de/itm/390994007660?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

If someone over the pool would like to bid on it,
it would be my pleasure to help with the shipping  :Smile: 

Greetz

Martin

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## mrmando

Dirt cheap at 127 euro, but I can hardly imagine what shipping would be. The most cost-effective way to get it to the States might be to put a sail and a rudder on it.

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## allenhopkins

> …if you are into early Gibsons like I am, a collection really isn't complete with out one....and a harp guitar...and a style O....and a K-4...and...


And this?

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## Barry Wilson

Gold tone just emailed me about the new M bass. it sure sounds great in the video clip. Mostly mahogany.

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## mandroid

Dobro-bass had my imagination thinking of  a Big Tri-cone, National Style.  but with 3 full sized  Guitar cones ..

http://www.nationalguitars.com/instr...vstricone.html

It has not been done in a Bass Has It?

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Timbofood

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## MikeEdgerton

> Gold tone just emailed me about the new M bass. it sure sounds great in the video clip. Mostly mahogany.


Check out the Kala U-Bass.

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## mrmando

> Dobro-bass had my imagination thinking of  a Big Tri-cone, National Style.  but with 3 full sized  Guitar cones .. It has not been done in a Bass Has It?


Ron Hyde built something twice as good: the hexacone reso-bass! 
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/at...0&d=1404819464

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## mandroid

More Bose-ish Array than 3x15" speaker cones ..  but interesting nonetheless..

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## JH Murray

I saw a frankenbass today- the body of a cello, with a bass guitar neck, with what looked like kala ubass strings on it. It plays down in the double bass range. Only $1000. Right next to it was a mandobass, for only $5k. Tres bizarre!

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## mrmando

And where was this?

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## JH Murray

Ottawa Folklore Centre. Sadly not listed on their website. http://www.ottawafolklore.com/

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## Barry Wilson

I went to my music store today to get some things (ordered a rack mount mixer and a tenor banjo... yup I am one of those guys now too LOL).. I decided to walk around and in the acoustic room there was both a gold tone and kala bass... I played both and they sound damned good. I prefer the gold tone just due to the scale feeling better (it is a little longer and more fret spacing) and having a cutaway. Very impressed. I think I am going to add one to the collection down the road..

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## mrmando

Here's one on Long Island for $15K: 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1929-Gibson-...3D171626739551




> It is estimated that just 200 of these instruments have ever been made.  As a result of Gibson not providing a hard shell case and the Mandolin becoming less popular amongst musicians as time went on, these very large Bass instruments were mostly thrown out or badly damaged over the years leaving just a handful left in a condition such as this.  Some notably famous guitar players such as Eddie Van Halen are known to actively collect these incredibly unusual, yet incredible sounding instruments as it is the very first fretted Bass instrument made.


Choke sputter snort ... believe the hype if you want to.

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## Timbofood

There's one born every minute!

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