# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Bluegrass form

## jemusic

Looking through the realbook and uncovering songs (as a beginning bluegrass player experienced jazz musician) I realize I have no idea of the formal structure of the music. I've heard tale of bluegrass tunes taking different structures, such as the jigg, and waltz, but are there other forms, like in jazz such as blues, rhythm changes, modal, etc.? If so what are the form types in bluegrass?

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## MikeEdgerton

Bluegrass jamming is pretty basic. Don't play any minor chords and forget that diminished chords exist and you can pretty much step right in  :Cool: 

I'm sure someone can give you a better description than I can.

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Misty Stanley-Jones, 

Tom Haywood

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## John Ritchhart

From Wikipedia:
In bluegrass, as in some forms of jazz, one or more instruments each takes its turn playing the melody and improvising around it, while the others perform accompaniment; this is especially typified in tunes called breakdowns. This is in contrast to old-time music, in which all instruments play the melody together or one instrument carries the lead throughout while the others provide accompaniment. Breakdowns are often characterized by rapid tempos and unusual instrumental dexterity and sometimes by complex chord changes.

Not to contradict our moderator, but there lots of bluegrass and fiddle tunes that have minor structures. Not just the relative minors but modal structures that feature Dorian and Mixolydian modes. Tunes that include root, two, three, four and five chords in the same tune. Lots of 3/4 time and some that change time signature within the tune. Form types? Well the reel, the waltz, and aire would be represented but called different things, the breakdown, the two step, shuffle or the ballad. There's even a back step.  :Coffee:

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## John Gardinsky

The I, IV and V chords will get you a long way when playing the bluegrass music. Sometimes a vi minor or a flat VII chord is in order.  Progression-wise it varies but a few of them are repeat offenders. The twelve bar blues that hangs on the V chord during the turn around is popular(Bluegrass Special, Rocky Road Blues,etc). The sixteen bar blues shows up from time to time(Lonesome Road Blues). The I,IV,V,I progression is fairly common.  One of the top contenders has to be the I,I,IV,IV,I,I,VV,I,I,IV,IV,I,V,I,I progression and it's variants(see True Life Blues,Bury Me Beneath The Willow, Road To Columbus). There's plenty that only use the I and Five chords as well.  Listen and you will start to hear them pop up.

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## JeffD

Listen. A lot. Then try and listen.

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TonyP

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## Ivan Kelsall

I've always thought that Bluegrass music & Traditional 'Dixieland' Jazz have pretty much the same format. One player leads,then he steps back,another player takes the lead & so on,the other players accompany the lead all the time & improvise their own bits around the lead player,meanwhile resisting all attempts to 'hog it',that's bad manners & also very amateurish.  When playing with a band,it's always best to work out who's 'doing what' & 'when' & 'for how long' before you set out,that way everybody knows what's going on & you don't suddenly get 2 solo breaks at the same time. As for 'chordal structures' & tempo.,that pretty much depends of the  music itself. In Bluegrass there are Jigs,Reels,Waltzes,Polkas along with what are known as 'Breakdowns',            ( up-tempo instrumentals). Each has it's own 'form' & if you're going to play them right,you need to listen hard & practice doing it. If you want to be taken as a serious musician,there's no other way.The great thing about it is,the more you do it,the better you get at 'doing it' !. I live in hope !!!, :Grin: 
                                                Ivan :Mandosmiley:

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## MikeEdgerton

> Not to contradict our moderator...


You might want to re-read the quote. Bluegrass *Jamming*. I actually know and play minor chords and diminished chords in damn near everything but you honestly don't get away with them if you're standing in a bluegrass jam. Most folks look at you confused. Carry on.

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## AlanN

:Confused:

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## MikeEdgerton

Alan, think Albert Hall  :Smile:

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## jemusic

So its a just use my ear situation on formal structure, so there is no archetype of form beyond variants of the blues? The reason I ask is that I am looking for an approach to learning tunes similar to how I approached learning jazz starting with blues, and then moving on to consistent harmonic schemes until I progressed to seemingly random harmonic forms. Its not my ear thats an issue, I have quite a few years experience teaching aural skills and its my most important skill set.  Though from what I can tell most people have quite an issued with hearing, its probably tied to attempting to hear everything via interval training.

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## AlanN

> Alan, think Albert Hall


Do I have to? 

 :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

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## JeffD

> so there is no archetype of form beyond variants of the blues?


No, there probably is. Its just that I don't know many people who think it through that way. In fact, I would bet (dollars to donuts) once you figure it out you will be disappointed at how simple it is.  "That's it??!!"





> The reason I ask is that I am looking for an approach to learning tunes...


I am not being facetious saying listen first. I think all the structure and theory is descriptive, but, in my experience its not very instructive, if the goal is playing, participating. I think the understanding comes after the experience.

I may be wrong. It seems there is no real front door to any of the traditional music. I myself wasted considerable time looking for a front door and never found one. Real progress was made when I gave up and jumped in to the center.

But folks wade in from where ever they are. 

More than a few folks waded into bluegrass from rock and roll, especially Jerry Garcia and the Dead. Maybe that is an indication of some parallelism to hang your hat on.

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jshane

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## sblock

> You might want to re-read the quote. Bluegrass *Jamming*. I actually know and play minor chords and diminished chords in damn near everything but you honestly don't get away with them if you're standing in a bluegrass jam. Most folks look at you confused. Carry on.


"Foggy Mountain Breakdown" has got to be one of the top bluegrass jam breaks of all time.  It has an Em chord!  (Yes, I know Lester Flatt sometimes backed it up with an E major, but virtually no one does that anymore:  Em is the preferred chord for jams.)

"Old Home Place" is another jam favorite.  It has a B7 (i.e., a III7) in the key of G.

There are many more.  Even Bluegrass jamming is not all I-IV-V(7), despite anything folks might try to tell you.

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## MikeEdgerton

> "Foggy Mountain Breakdown" has got to be one of the top bluegrass jam breaks of all time.  It has an Em chord!  (Yes, I know Lester Flatt sometimes backed it up with an E major, but virtually no one does that anymore:  Em is the preferred chord for jams.)
> 
> "Old Home Place" is another jam favorite.  It has a B7 (i.e., a III7) in the key of G.
> 
> There are many more.  Even Bluegrass jamming is not all I-IV-V(7), despite anything folks might try to tell you.


I didn't say anything about 7th chords. When I look at half the guitarists playing that E major in Foggy Mountain Breakdown I cringe. Lester is pretty much the poster boy for what I was saying. Unless bluegrass jamming has changed in the last few minutes I'm pretty much gonna go with what I've been seeing for years. I'm not saying you never see minors (note the smiley), I'm just saying that in the average jam it's real limited.

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## MikeEdgerton

For blues mandolin, take darn near any Monroe lick and slow it down. You're there.

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2Sharp

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## farmerjones

Form is Intro, Verse, Chorus (with harmony), instrumental break/solo, verse, chorus, break, etc. Until the last chorus, and traditionally a cold, hard stop ending. 
Then there's the pass around break variation(more than one instrument) and splitting breaks. Then there the occasional song or tune with a turn around or release.

I was going to break them up into, murder, or dead parent's, or longing for the "Old Home Place." But that subject matter, not form.  :Smile:  

Pete Wernick's site has put a study on all this. There's no sense reinventing the wheel.

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## John Ritchhart

Apologies Mike, certainly didn't mean anything personal by the comment. In our Jams we still do a lot of what I'm talking about. e.g. Lonesome Moonlight Waltz we play in F but it starts on the six chord and has that Dm feel throughout but it ends back on the F for that so-called major lift. A song like The Old Home Place features the 3 chord in the verse and 2 chord in the chorus which gives it a certain drive. Another standby is Cherokee Shuffle with that F#m at the end of the phrase. Makes the tune for me. Some different chord progressions crop up like in Wait a Minute by Herb Pedersen. 1-5-2 minor-4-1 then that cool walkdown on the five chord the second time through that sounds a little like the Canon in D progression. Midnight on the Water with the Em and Bm in the second part. 
Trust me, I'm not trying to defend Bluegrass as a highly technical or sophisticated music form. You won't see augmented, diminished or jazz inversions like 9th, 11th 13th's etc. Although my buddy Gutbucket likes to throw in a minor 6th now and then just to see the heads snap around. I'm just saying there is more texture and depth to Bluegrass than just 3 chords and a cloud of dust. Another point I would make on the OP's question about form is the 3 part harmony singing feature of Bluegrass. Close harmonies are a major part of the sound and to Mike's point there are certain things that are to be avoided like sevenths. We don't want to sound like folk or barber shop, do we?

 :Chicken:

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## AlanN

With Mike here, particularly in the senior, or soon-to-be-so crowd. And what I don't dig is the minor in songs like Sittin' On Top Of the World (the part where it goes, "Now she's gone, and I don't worry...). Now, in many of the jams I hit, they throw that in there, seems to have become real common to do that. I still don't like it.

Not to say the minor doesn't have its place, where it's part of the tune, like in Cherokee Shuffle mentioned above. Another one is Sledd Ridin'. It has a ii-V-I thing in it (Bm-E-A). I picked it in a jam the other day, the banjo man did not get it, he was doing B Major-E-A. Nope, not to my ears anyway. I said it's a minor 2-5-1. He looked at me like I was speaking Cantonese.

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## MikeEdgerton

I didn't take it personal, the reality is if you've progressed to more complex fiddle tunes you've probably gone beyond the repertoire of 90% of the BG jammers. If all you ever play with is that other 10% I'm jealous.

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## TonyP

Like anything it's easy after you get it. There are a lot of quirks to bluegrass that are hard to describe. The structure you are wanting to get into a form is hard to boil down to hard and fast rules. I'm not sure if it comes from musicians not being trained classically or they just didn't want to hold to those rules or coming from older music that predated chords like some of the early Irish or Celtic music. But sometimes there are half measures, chord changes in places that you won't find in other genres etc. I don't know if this comes from following a melody differently but it took a lot of listening to get the form in my head. Now even if I've not heard the song before I know by the melody the singer is laying down where the chords is going to change to and when.

When I first came to bluegrass it seemed so simple when I listened to it. Not until I tried to play it did I realize it's not complicated chords, but just in different places than I was used to. So like JeffD said, listen, listen a lot. And like any music it's best to listen to the source. Monroe, Flatt and Scruggs, Stanley Brothers and all the off shoots of them. I hope you enjoy the journey as much as I do.

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Tom Haywood

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## Paul Cowham

Ok, in my experience, bluegrass tunes (also called fiddle tunes) are generally in 4/4 and these types of tunes would be known as "reels", "breakdowns" or "hornpipes". Probably the other time signature which is most common is 3/4 (i.e. waltzs). Some people have also mentioned jigs, they are tunes in 6/8 but not part of the bluegrass tradition (jigs are generally Irish or Scottish).

Most "fiddle tunes" have 2 parts, an A part and B part and they are usually 8 bars long each and played twice i.e. once round the tune is AABB 32 bars in total. Some tunes have more than 2 parts and occasionally parts are have different lengths (i.e. Jerusalem Ridge).

There is no real pattern for the chords behind the tunes (unlike say the 12 bar blues) as others have said, there are more major chords than minor and "jazz" chords are not generally played. Some tunes are in major key others in minor key and others modal (e.g. salt creek - more technically minded people would say what mode, I just know them as modal). Depending whether the tune is major, minor or modal will influence what chords are generally played. (This is not a very sophisticated analysis of harmony).

At a bluegrass jam, someone would normally start a tune and play it all the way through. Then it would get passed round the circle so everyone gets the opportunity to play through the tune as a solo. Players usually improvise around the tune when it is their turn play a solo. If not soloing, as a rule of thumb the bass would play on the on beat and other instruments the off beat. Last time round the tune it is not uncommon for everyone to play the tune together in unison (but this doesn't always happen).

Hope this helps - also, this analysis only really applies to tunes rather than songs.

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tangleweeds

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## AlanN

> Now even if I've not heard the song before I know by the melody the singer is laying down where the chords is going to change to and when.


O, So Very Important! And innate, a feeling thing. And it's the same with picking numbers. Even if I've never heard a number before, if you know this music and its constructs, you can play the tune, at least the chords. These are the kinds of pickers I seek.

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## John Ritchhart

That's a good point, Mike and correct. If you jam with a smaller group and usually see the same people, you can move into some more interesting areas. If you attend a large jam with many people coming and going, there are forces at work that limit you to "what everybody knows". So it's Whiskey Before Breakfast, and Blue Moon of Kentucky. Can get old.

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MikeEdgerton

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...He looked at me like I was speaking Cantonese.


Exactly.  :Cool:

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## MikeEdgerton

And then there are the spoon "players".

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## sblock

Well Mike, with all due respect, I think you're quite wrong about the (supposed) near-absence of minor chords in bluegrass jams -- especially the relative minor to the tonic (vi).  Pete Wernick has compiled a well-known list of pickin' favorites for jams ("_Top 106 Bluegrass Jamming Favorites_"), available here:  http://www.drbanjo.com/instructional...gfavorites.php

Under the sublist of "Up-Tempo" songs ALONE, I found all these favorite jam tunes that are played with minor chords:

*Lonesome Road Blues
Sittin' on Top of the World
Fox on the Run
Love Come Home
Rocky Top
Friend of the Devil
Shady Grove
Steam Powered Aeroplane
Will the Circle Be Unbroken
Midnight Moonlight
Wagon Wheel*

Also, among the the popular bluegrass jam _instrumentals_, we find these two:

*Blackberry Blossom
Foggy Mtn. Breakdown*

Most of these songs and tunes have been around for year and years, so this is not some new phenomenon. 

It would probably be correct to say that there are few BG tunes that are played in a _minor key_ (although many modal tunes may be considered as 'minor'!)  but that doesn't mean that no one uses a minor chord now and again.

Of course, among the more _advanced_ jam tunes -- rarely heard except among the better players -- are several BG/newgrass/Trad classics in MINOR KEYS, like:

*El Cumbanchero
Opus 57 in Gm
Jerusalem Ridge
Lonesome Moonlight Waltz
Little Sadie
Temperance Reel
Wayfaring Stranger
*

In the face of all this evidence, I hope you will re-think -- or at least re-consider -- your position.   :Smile:

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## MikeEdgerton

Well, we could go there. Alan already mentioned the minor in Sitting on top of the world, People will argue all day about Circle be unbroken (I do play the minor there and get yelled at by the purists), Wagon Wheel was copyrighted in 2003 and I've been doing that song since about that time or soon after. It's certainly not been around years and years in my book anyway. Half the rock folks might argue that the 1970's Dead song Friend of the Devil is a rock song, it certainly gets played but I rarely hear folks jamming on it. I've played it since it came out. For that matter most banjo players I  know hate Foggy Mountain breakdown and refuse to play it. Look, what I said I said with tongue in cheek but honestly I'll still stay with the statement that in a general bluegrass jam folks just don't go for the minors. That's why you'll almost always hear someone say "What was that odd chord in there?" after you attempt to introduce a song with one it in a jam. You obviously jam with a higher caliber of folks than I do and I do play 90% of those songs listed.

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## SincereCorgi

> With Mike here, particularly in the senior, or soon-to-be-so crowd. And what I don't dig is the minor in songs like Sittin' On Top Of the World (the part where it goes, "Now she's gone, and I don't worry...). Now, in many of the jams I hit, they throw that in there, seems to have become real common to do that. I still don't like it.


Man, high-five. I hate that minor. I do a Roy Acuff song called "Lonesome River Blues" with the same melody/chords and I have to give a little talk first about how it doesn't go to that minor, but people throw it in anyway and give me this look like they're doing me a favor.

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## farmerjones

> Man, high-five. I hate that minor. I do a Roy Acuff song called "Lonesome River Blues" with the same melody/chords and I have to give a little talk first about how it doesn't go to that minor, but people throw it in anyway and give me this look like they're doing me a favor.


Zat the one with the chorus, "The water roles high on the river at midnight.. . . " ?
True, it hangs on the chord for quite awhile. Just about everybody wants that change, but it's not there. yesir.

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## AlanN

Farmer,

Believe that is Lonesome River, Stanley Brothers number. Yep, hangs on the I for a long time. And the solos are mostly turnarounds.

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## AlanN

> Well Mike, with all due respect, I think you're quite wrong about the (supposed) near-absence of minor chords in bluegrass jams -- especially the relative minor to the tonic (vi).  Pete Wernick has compiled a well-known list of pickin' favorites for jams ("_Top 106 Bluegrass Jamming Favorites_"), available here:  http://www.drbanjo.com/instructional...gfavorites.php
> 
> Under the sublist of "Up-Tempo" songs ALONE, I found all these favorite jam tunes that are played with minor chords:
> 
> *Lonesome Road Blues
> Sittin' on Top of the World
> Fox on the Run
> Love Come Home
> Rocky Top
> ...


Love Come Home has a minor chord? Not around here.

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## Mike Bunting

I've never heard Love Come Home with a minor chord in it, nor Lonesome Road Blues. Friend of the Devil, Wagon Wheel, Midnight Moonlight, hardly blue grass.
Totally agree on Sittin' on Top of the World and Circle, no minor in them, that is totally Tin Pan Alley stuff.
That being said, I have nothing against minor chords in bluegrass.

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John Gardinsky

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## tree

> That being said, I have nothing against minor chords in bluegrass.


Me either.  Can't play Cold Sheets of Rain without one.  

I don't mind a diminished chord either.  How else ya gonna play Blue Mule?  If you know how to use 'em, why limit yourself?

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## JeffD

Because in a jam you want to play with others. And the you are limited to little more than the least common denominator, which is almost by definition going to be limiting to your personal techniques.

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## AlanN

Good example, Clark, of (no mistaking it for) a grass tune with a dim chord in it. Probably the only one out there, now that I think of it. The Bela tune Dawg's Due has one, too.

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## AlanN

> Because in a jam you want to play with others. And the you are limited to little more than the least common denominator, which is almost by definition going to be limiting to your personal techniques.


You bring up a point, Jeff. If you don't do what the herd does, you are going to look like a persnickety curmudgeon. Sittin' On Top...is a good example. Yes, I don't like the minor. But, *most* throw it in. So, if I'm in a jam and it gets played, what to do? Stick to my guns and not play it? I'll show them... Who loses? Them? Me? Or do I proclaim "No minor chord!" Who looks like the J-O? Or pack up and leave? Who wins there?

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Bill Baldridge

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## tree

What about a half-diminished chord?  You can substitute that for a 7th (the folks I jam with commonly use 7th chords) without a root.  Most likely nobody but you is gonna know what you did.  And the Kentucky Waltz has a gorgeous half-dim in it,  "and I long once *more* for your embrace . . ."

I'm not advocating showing off your music theory chops in a BG jam.  But I don't think you're strictly limited to I, IV and V chords either.  I guess we've strayed pretty far from the OP.  :Grin:

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## sblock

Attention all *MINOR CHORD DENIERS* among the bluegrass "purists."

OK folks, here are a few _more_ tunes containing one or more minor chords, all commonly performed in bluegrass jams around this great country (like 'em or not):

*Down the Road
Cumberland Gap
Ballad of Jed Clampett
Red Rocking Chair
*

And just 'cuz you or your banjo-playing friend refuse to play on hackneyed requests like *Foggy Mtn Breakdown* or *Wagon Wheel* (_Well, guess what, folks? I don't like 'em either!_), that is hardly an argument to suggest that these songs don't get played. On the contrary. In fact, it supports the exact opposite of the position you've taken!  They're badly over-played, not under-played.  And they have a minor chord.

And here are a couple of less commonly performed in some regions, but quite popular in others (esp. the west):

*Redwood Hill
Big Spike Hammer
Vincent Black Lightning
*

And what about all those instrumentals that are commonly played in bluegrass jams?  How about THESE tunes (in addition to the ones I supplied earlier)?

*Sledd Ride
Cherokee Shuffle
Snowflake Reel
Ashland Breakdown
Big Sciota
Devil's Dream
Stoney Point
Lonesome Fiddle Blues
Billy in the Lowground
*

To my way of thinking, bluegrass music has never, ever been JUST about I-IV-V progressions and the 'modal' VII chord. Nor is it JUST about blues. Monroe, Flatt & Scruggs, Stanley Bros., Osbornes, McReynolds, and all the others who originated and disseminated this musical form ALL used minor chords in their music!  

Furthermore, three of Monroe's most famous tunes of all (*Jerusalem Ridge*, *Lonesome Moonlight Waltz*, and the haunting *My Last Days on Earth*) are written in minor KEYS, for goodness' sakes. For whatever it's worth, I have even heard the occasional minor chord played in novice slow jams among fledgling bluegrass musicians still trying to get their timing and tempo up to speed.  

Yes, minor chords are for everyone...even hardcore bluegrassers!   :Wink: 
I think one has to pretty much willfully _ignore the facts_ to assert that minor chords have little role to play in bluegrass music.

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## MikeEdgerton

I am really enjoying the definitive lists  :Smile:

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## sblock

> Love Come Home has a minor chord? Not around here.


Yup, you're absolutely right.  That one should not have been on the list!

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## John Ritchhart

I'd like to buy a vowel.

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## AlanN

> Attention all *MINOR CHORD DENIERS* among the bluegrass "purists."
> 
> OK folks, here are a few _more_ tunes containing one or more minor chords, all commonly performed in bluegrass jams around this great country (like 'em or not):
> 
> *Down the Road
> Cumberland Gap
> Ballad of Jed Clampett
> Red Rocking Chair
> *
> ...


Snowflake Reel has a minor chord? Not around here.

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## UsuallyPickin

Yes the VIm  has a way of appearing and disappearing from jam to jam. It never seems to slow anyone down though. In Grass .... both New and Blue I IV and V is indeed the predominant form. There are plenty of I V songs as well. And yes minors and Dom7th's appear as semi regular guest performers. What I tell a newbie guitar player, which you are not, is learn the I , II, IIm, IV, V, VIm in the keys of C and G and that will carry you most everywhere you want to go with the judicious use of a capo. At the crossroads of bluegrass and jazz at Dawg music ...... well... give it a listen and decide for yourself....... Enjoy your foray into Grass.... R/

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## sblock

> Snowflake Reel has a minor chord? Not around here.


Not around here, either! Actually, *Snowflake Reel* (aka *Snowflake Breakdown*) has a Bb "surprise" chord in it, which is the flat-VI (in the key of D).  As opposed to the minor VI (Bm), which is the relative minor.  

Talk about weird chords in bluegrass!  But it was written by a Canadian fiddler, Wally Traugott.  Bluegrassers know it mainly through the hot playing of Bobby Hicks and Sam Bush, who have both recorded nice versions of it.  Jim & Jesse recorded it, too. And so has banjo great Vic Jordan.

...and this all just goes to show that bluegrass is not all I-IV-V (and the occasional flat VII), as some have intimated. _Let's hear it for the "weird" chords!!_

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## Mike Bunting

> [B]Lonesome Moonlight Waltz[/
> I think one has to pretty much willfully _ignore the facts_ to assert that minor chords have little role to play in bluegrass music.


Lonesome Moonlight W. Is in F. All the chords are derived from the F major scale. It is worth investigating authentic minor scales and non-authentic minor scales.
Again, I pretty much agree with your premise, I'm just a theory freak. Many tunes are altered via the passage of time, Roland White once mentioned to me that the first part of BB Blossom originally just a G tune with a D in the turn around and when it got to California the Californicators added all the extra chords. They all work but I am reminded of Pete Seeger's comment that any damn fool can make things complicated!  :Smile:

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## sblock

Point taken.  Yes, LMW is a waltz in the *key of F* (same notes as the Dm scale).  And it starts on the Dm.  Not getting around that minor chord, though -- you absolutely need it to play this tune.

And let's not forget that other famous Bill Monroe waltz, the "*Kentucky Waltz*", which has been adopted as the state waltz of Kentucky. Hard to play that tune without a whole bunch of chords -- including a minor seventh, or diminished seventh (you pick).

Over the line:
"And I long once more for your embrace in the beautiful Kentucky waltz"

you often hear this classic progression:  IV/iv7 (or Dim)/I/VI7/II7/V7/I

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Mike Bunting

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## MikeEdgerton

I'm totally shocked that this bluegrass classic didn't make Pete's list. It has some minor chords in it and all the right instruments. It's only been around since about 75 though.

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## Mike Bunting

> It's only been around since about 75 though.


Well, there you go.

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## doc holiday

Just like Gibson Mandolins & Martin guitars....if it's its from 75....it''s not even close to this side of vintage.
 :Smile:

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Mike Bunting

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## MikeEdgerton

The funny thing is that if I could ever get more than one fiddle in a gig I'd probably do that one. I'm surprised nobody else has done it.

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## Misty Stanley-Jones

> I'm totally shocked that this bluegrass classic didn't make Pete's list. It has some minor chords in it and all the right instruments. It's only been around since about 75 though.


Wow. I don't know what to think except that this is taking my name in vain!

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## AlanN

Adding the relative minor to songs like Will the Circle Be Unbroken and Lonesome Road Blues is Grateful Dead-y. I like to sing Circle. Don't do the minor, and base my take on it off the 'normal', old-time country thing. Think it sounds more powerful and true without it. ymmv, as usual.

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## AlanN

> Exactly.


Rather maddening dealing with large jams where the awareness/skill level is varied, from a musicianship and knowledge basis. Even 'learning' folks a tune on the fly is a challenge (which it shouldn't be, if you're any kind of picker...another thread topic, this. 

Example: I pick with many of the same pickers who show up at the same jams. All are different. Some (few) know 1, 4, 5 lingo - the easiest and cleanest. I just hold of the requisite number of fingers with my left hand to indicate the chord. Or call out "One, six minor", whatever), simple as pie... for some Others need to hear the chord name - not as clean and easy, particularly when capos are in play. And some need to hear the shape names - G, C, D. So, if capo on 2, I call out G (which is really A chord). Horrid to me, but they need that. Sometimes, I feel like an auctioneer. I've come to peace with it.

And still others need the visual. They will look at the other guitar picker's hand. But, this can be dreadful, as was the case the last jam I hit. Huge picker crowd, with a core group and then the fringe. On the fringe, I spied a guitar man who is one of those visual pickers. He had the right shape (D), but the wrong capo fret (2, song was in F chord - capo on 3). I hadn't the heart to say anything, as it would've stopped the song and embarassed him. This is what to deal with...

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## ralph johansson

> What about a half-diminished chord?  You can substitute that for a 7th (the folks I jam with commonly use 7th chords) without a root.  Most likely nobody but you is gonna know what you did.  And the Kentucky Waltz has a gorgeous half-dim in it,  "and I long once *more* for your embrace . . ."
> 
> I'm not advocating showing off your music theory chops in a BG jam.  But I don't think you're strictly limited to I, IV and V chords either.  I guess we've strayed pretty far from the OP.


The way I hear the last eight bars  of Kentucky Waltz (in the key of E) is : A am E C#7 //F#7 B7 E ...(yes, I insist on the sevenths there!) The melody note over the am is an f#, but it's not a root note. am6 and f#m7b5
(f# half diminished) are inversions of one another to be sure, but they are functionally different. Also, in an m6 chord the fifth is often omitted, in an min7b5 the fourth is often added, further accentuating their different functions.

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## tree

Then I stand corrected; music theory is a big book and I'm still working on it.   :Grin: 

What I do know is that one of the chord shapes I associate with half-dim works beautifully at that spot, if that shape is also a m6 then I'll try to add that to my understanding.  

Sadly, most folks seem to blow right through that spot without playing that beautiful chord, which to my ear is _essential_ to supporting the melody.

But we've strayed far from the OP, sorry.

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## MikeEdgerton

> I call out G (which is really A chord). Horrid to me, but they need that...


The capoed guitarists are grateful and the bass player is suddenly playing the wrong note.  :Smile: 

Been there, done that.

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## TonyP

To me the number system is essential and I've tried to convert everybody I've been in bands with. I learned the hard way trying to call out chords is not only confusing for those that have capo's, but for those with tinnitus and hard of hearing all they hear is the "ee" on the end of most of the chords(G,B,C,D,E) and just spend all their time floundering. The numbers don't all sound the same so it cuts through noise better. While it does get through somewhat to use your fingers, it's very distracting to me as my hands are busy already. And there's that thing that a lot of times chords that would normally be minor, say the three, are not always. So you have to call the major or minor. Things like this make me skip jams. It literally crosses my eyes in pain to hear somebody playing the wrong chord over and over because they don't get it. 

It has been interesting noting how like throwing in the minor on some songs is controversial. I just learned them that way and have only seemed to play with folks who play it that way. It does seem to be a regional thing.

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## Mark Wilson

> I just hold of the requisite number of fingers with my left hand to indicate the chord. 
> 
> Or call out "One, six minor", whatever), simple as pie... for some Others need to hear the chord name - not as clean and easy, particularly when capos are in play. And some need to hear the shape names - G, C, D. 
> 
> So, if capo on 2, I call out G (which is really A chord). Horrid to me, but they need that. 
> 
> *Sometimes, I feel like an auctioneer*. I've come to peace with it.
> 
> And still others need the visual. 
> ...


Sweet!  You may well be on to some new hi-level form of TAB language. Half spoken half visual.  Let me know when you get this perfected and also where you'll be jamming.  Not having to learn these songs at home will free up a lot of week nights I'm thinking.  :Cool:   :Laughing:

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## AlanN

Too wise, Mark.

My problem is I loathe wrong chords.

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## lenf12

> .......I said it's a minor 2-5-1. He looked at me like I was speaking Cantonese.


...Or Cherokees  :Laughing: 

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## JeffD

One thing I do in a jam, (not bluegrass for the most part however), is play the tune with enough unambiguous double stops that the guitaristas can hear that their first guess may not have been right. 

Still in all, the focus of the jam is playing with others, and I just put up with all the compromises that entails.

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## JeffD

> To me the number system is essential and I've tried to convert everybody I've been in bands with..


Life would be wonderful if more people knew the number system. It really would. 

When I explain it to folks, their eyes glaze over because it sounds more complicated than what they are doing. Folks don't realize how much simpler it makes everything. For guitarists with capos, for us mandolinners, for everyone except maybe the woodwinds.

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## ralph johansson

About Bluegrass avoiding "fancy" chords". One example is Farewell Blues, by the New Orleans Rhythm Kings. In the twelfth bar nobody in Bluegrass seems to play the dim chord that I insist on hearing. Another example is Panhandle Rag, a steel guitar instrumental by Leon McAuliffe.  Original key E, Bluegrassers seem to prefer the key of D, as in Chris Thile's (really John Moore's) version. The chords of the original bridge are IV7 - I - II7 -  V7. Bluegrassers seem to resist the idea of a b9 melody note, hence prefer IV- I- IV- V. Yet Bluegrass has its share of dissonance. E.g.,  Monroe and several others like to use the Mixolydian and Dorian modes against major chords. The best example of this is Dusty Miller with a Mixolydian first part and  Dorian second part.

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Mike Bunting

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## AlanN

> Life would be wonderful if more people knew the number system. It really would. 
> 
> When I explain it to folks, their eyes glaze over because it sounds more complicated than what they are doing. Folks don't realize how much simpler it makes everything. For guitarists with capos, for us mandolinners, for everyone except maybe the woodwinds.


Yes, yes and yes. And not only that, many pickers I try to 'convert' actively resist it with some sort of snide, dismissive comment. Very odd.

The Good Lord Gives Them Eyes But They Do Not See.

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## John Ritchhart

It's funny to see how adamant we are on this subject, especially since Mike said we was just kidding back on page one.  :Wink:  And furthermore......

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## MikeEdgerton

Hey I got to post Misty. I've been trying to do that for years.

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## Mike Bunting

> Hey I got to post Misty. I've been trying to do that for years.


The thread can't be all bad then.  :Smile:

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MikeEdgerton

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## brent1308

> Hey I got to post Misty. I've been trying to do that for years.


WAMU beat you too it.  The response in the posted thread started out positive but the consensus appeared to be that "it's not bluegrass." 

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ighlight=misty

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## jemusic

Minor chords that much of an issue? So I guess a tritone sub would stop a jam cold?!

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## SincereCorgi

> Minor chords that much of an issue? So I guess a tritone sub would stop a jam cold?!


It kinda depends on the jam. There are some great players in more of a 'new acoustic' vein (Matt Flinner, Mike Marshall, Chris Thile, etc) who have experimented with expanding bluegrass's harmonic palette. Thing is, after a while it stops sounding like bluegrass, and just sounds like a fiddle tune over exotic changes.

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Bill Baldridge, 

LongBlackVeil, 

Mike Bunting, 

Rush Burkhardt

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## AlanN

Blame Bela, Dawg, Rice-boy (et. al.) for the exotic shift, which I happen to love. Some 30-odd years ago, they took what was in the air and twisted and turned it into something beautiful and wide-open. Without their vision and courage, we'd all be poorer. And that stuff can live side-by-side with the trad, imo.

----------

sblock, 

tkdboyd, 

tree

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## ralph johansson

> Then I stand corrected; music theory is a big book and I'm still working on it.  
> 
> What I do know is that one of the chord shapes I associate with half-dim works beautifully at that spot, if that shape is also a m6 then I'll try to add that to my understanding.  
> 
> Sadly, most folks seem to blow right through that spot without playing that beautiful chord, which to my ear is _essential_ to supporting the melody.
> 
> But we've strayed far from the OP, sorry.



On the contrary, I think the proper chord to use in accompaniment is the unadorned
minor iv chord, using a vocing (low fifth) that doesn't clash with the melody note, which is really a passing note over the chord, not part of it. Doubling that note would be a bit restrictive; e.g., the singer may want to slide from that note to the third of the tonic chord (which I believe Monroe does on the 1970 recording). Who knows, another day the singer may want to sing the seventh, or slide from the fifth to that high third. By the same token, if the melody features the ninth over the dom7, it may be wise not to double it in the accompaniment (and avoid a clash between the third and the ninth).

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## ralph johansson

> It kinda depends on the jam. There are some great players in more of a 'new acoustic' vein (Matt Flinner, Mike Marshall, Chris Thile, etc) who have experimented with expanding bluegrass's harmonic palette. Thing is, after a while it stops sounding like bluegrass, and just sounds like a fiddle tune over exotic changes.


Really? I don't think of New Acoustic as a development of bluegrass at all, but rather a complete departure, a string band parallel
to jazz.

 Often the harmonic structures are pretty simple, e.g., EMD uses (I believe) only four chords, em, C7, A7 and B7, yet a lot different from any known Bluegrass form.  And do tunes like EMD, Blue Midnight, Ybor City, Gator Strut, Swing 51 really sound like fiddle tunes? Not to my ears.

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## ralph johansson

> Attention all *MINOR CHORD DENIERS* among the bluegrass "purists."
> 
> 
> Furthermore, three of Monroe's most famous tunes of all (*Jerusalem Ridge*, *Lonesome Moonlight Waltz*, and the haunting *My Last Days on Earth*) are written in minor KEYS, for goodness' sakes. For whatever it's worth, I have even heard the occasional minor chord played in novice slow jams among fledgling bluegrass musicians still trying to get their timing and tempo up to speed.  
> 
> Yes, minor chords are for everyone...even hardcore bluegrassers!  
> I think one has to pretty much willfully _ignore the facts_ to assert that minor chords have little role to play in bluegrass music.


As others have already pointed out, Lonesome Moonlight Waltz is in the key of F major.

Interestingly, Monroe resisted minor keys for a long time, not sure why. For instance, the 1958 recording of Wayfaring Stranger is in key of Ab major. He later worked out a different arrangement. In the disastrous electric sessions, IIRC, Gambling Barroom Blues was also done in a major key. Up until the mid-60's the only minor examples I can think of is the bridge to Cheyenne, and a live recording of Kentucky Mandolin with Doc Watson.

Gene Lowinger was the first Yankee to play fiddle with Monroe. He is also a practising Jew. On one occasion (this is from Lowinger's book I Hear a Voice Calling) Monroe accompanied him to the synagogue in Nashville. He was deeply moved by the  music and, thanking the rabbi afterwards, expressed hopes of including some of these sounds in his own music.
Who knows, this occasion may have inspired his use of minor keys in later compositions, such as
those already mentioned, along with  Land of Lincoln
and The One I Love Is Gone (which he never recorded).

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## AlanN

Rather likely, ralph. Monroe was not a musical snob.

Reminds the story: Bill in NYC, eating a bagel..."Them was the hardest donuts I ever ate."

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## tree

> On the contrary, I think the proper chord to use in accompaniment is the unadorned
> minor iv chord, using a vocing (low fifth) that doesn't clash with the melody note, which is really a passing note over the chord, not part of it. Doubling that note would be a bit restrictive; e.g., the singer may want to slide from that note to the third of the tonic chord (which I believe Monroe does on the 1970 recording). Who knows, another day the singer may want to sing the seventh, or slide from the fifth to that high third. By the same token, if the melody features the ninth over the dom7, it may be wise not to double it in the accompaniment (and avoid a clash between the third and the ninth).


Isn't it nice that everybody's not the same?  We play KW in the key of C, because that's where the singer likes it.  In the second bar of the last 8, I play the x435 shape (F#, C, A).  Whatever chord that is, it pleases my ear.  The way I play the entire pass I worked out myself, and perhaps it isn't exactly right but it works for me: 5301, x435, 557x, 657x,547x, 435x, 523x, 0357.  That last shape is a bona fide half-dim, and I only play it to lead back into another verse, not at the end.

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## Misty Stanley-Jones

> Isn't it nice that everybody's not the same?  We play KW in the key of C, because that's where the singer likes it.  In the second bar of the last 8, I play the x435 shape (F#, C, A).  Whatever chord that is, it pleases my ear.  The way I play the entire pass I worked out myself, and perhaps it isn't exactly right but it works for me: 5301, x435, 557x, 657x,547x, 435x, 523x, 0357.  That last shape is a bona fide half-dim, and I only play it to lead back into another verse, not at the end.


I believe in the key of C, that's an augmented IV.

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## ralph johansson

> Isn't it nice that everybody's not the same?  We play KW in the key of C, because that's where the singer likes it.  In the second bar of the last 8, I play the x435 shape (F#, C, A).  Whatever chord that is, it pleases my ear.  The way I play the entire pass I worked out myself, and perhaps it isn't exactly right but it works for me: 5301, x435, 557x, 657x,547x, 435x, 523x, 0357.  That last shape is a bona fide half-dim, and I only play it to lead back into another verse, not at the end.



The last chord is actually a widely spaced complete G7 chord. Of course, the function of a chord is largely determined by the root note which is usually supplied by some other instrument, e.g.,  guitar or bass - there is no bass on a mandolin! In bar 4 you are apparently playing a rootless A7, in bar 5 a rootless (and fifthless) D9, for instance.

In this song (in the key of C) there are basically two possibilities:
F, fm, C, A7, D7, G7, C
or
F, f#dim , C/g, A7, D7, G7 C

I'm discussing the first option, wanting the fm unadorned, because I may play all kinds of junk over it (I play KW as part of a medley, Tennessee Waltz in F, Missouri Waltz in D, Kentucky Waltz in Eb). You are discussing the second option. What you're playing is, in this context, an incomplete f#dim.

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## AlanN

You fellows are da bomb. I, too, see the options of doing 

1) F to Fm 
2) F to F#dim7

depending on how I feel, who I'm playing with and what I had for breakfast. To quote Satchmo - Hot can be cool and cool can be hot and each can be both. But hot or cool, man, jazz is jazz.

The real question is: WWBD? I'll leave it to you all to decipher that

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## sblock

> You fellows are da bomb. I, too, see the options of doing 
> 
> 1) F to Fm 
> 2) F to F#dim7
> 
> depending on how I feel, who I'm playing with and what I had for breakfast. To quote Satchmo - Hot can be cool and cool can be hot and each can be both. But hot or cool, man, jazz is jazz.
> 
> The real question is: WWBD? I'll leave it to you all to decipher that


Shouldn't that be "What Would WSM Do?"  WWWSMD? I think the most likely answer is that Mr. Bill Monroe would have played a simple double stop himself, and let whatever musicians were in the session at recording time "color out" the remainder of the chord.  That was the way he usually did things. Please go back and re-read post #46 in the thread, though, which was the first post to bring up the backup chords to "Kentucky Waltz."  As I wrote, you can elect to play the iv (or iv7, a minor chord) OR the diminished in this tune.  They'll both work perfectly well.  But I mentioned this particular tune up to rebut the (to me, outrageous) proposal that there were no minor or diminished chords in bluegrass.  Not so!! Here's a case-in-point of one famous song that can use _either_!  So just playing major chords for backup simply will not do.  This is not about some kind of bluegrass-police "purism."  It's about getting the music right!  Bill Monroe himself did not shy away completely from minor (or diminished) chords, and neither did any of the other pioneering bluegrass groups of his era. And this was long before Newgrass and Dawg music emerged, so we should not blame Sam Bush or David Grisman! Actually, Monroe (Kenny Baker, too) was fairly sophisticated musically, I'd argue, in contrast to (ahem) some of his self-proclaimed, zealous followers of today who seem keen to prescribe the "rules" of the bluegrass form.   :Wink:

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## MikeEdgerton

> You fellows are da bomb. I, too, see the options of doing 
> 
> 1) F to Fm 
> 2) F to F#dim7
> 
> depending on how I feel, who I'm playing with and what I had for breakfast. To quote Satchmo - Hot can be cool and cool can be hot and each can be both. But hot or cool, man, jazz is jazz.
> 
> The real question is: WWBD? I'll leave it to you all to decipher that


Alan, you're in a no win situation. Even when you agree with someone you're wrong.

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## AlanN

Yes, Mike. I feel like I'm being scolded by sblock. No matter, I don't know the person and hardly want to

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## lenf12

> Rather maddening dealing with large jams where the awareness/skill level is varied, from a musicianship and knowledge basis. Even 'learning' folks a tune on the fly is a challenge (which it shouldn't be, if you're any kind of picker...another thread topic, this. 
> 
> Example: I pick with many of the same pickers who show up at the same jams. All are different. Some (few) know 1, 4, 5 lingo - the easiest and cleanest. I just hold of the requisite number of fingers with my left hand to indicate the chord. Or call out "One, six minor", whatever), simple as pie... for some Others need to hear the chord name - not as clean and easy, particularly when capos are in play. And some need to hear the shape names - G, C, D. So, if capo on 2, I call out G (which is really A chord). Horrid to me, but they need that. Sometimes, I feel like an auctioneer. I've come to peace with it.
> 
> And still others need the visual. They will look at the other guitar picker's hand. But, this can be dreadful, as was the case the last jam I hit. Huge picker crowd, with a core group and then the fringe. On the fringe, I spied a guitar man who is one of those visual pickers. He had the right shape (D), but the wrong capo fret (2, song was in F chord - capo on 3). I hadn't the heart to say anything, as it would've stopped the song and embarassed him. This is what to deal with...


Yes AlanN,

That sounds exactly like the jams around here that I attend. There's a huge range of skill levels from absolute beginners on the fringes to more experienced semi-pro players at the center of the group leading all the songs. Being a rare center player, I'll sometimes watch where the guitarist is placing his capo and figure the tune will be some variation of I IV V in whatever key his G position chords are in. I think having some guitar background will be quite beneficial to the OP with a jazz background. In the G chord position (capoed wherever on the neck), the chord structure isn't rocket science to figure out and transpose to the mandolin. 

There's really so much that can be said for going to the jams and figuring out where you are in the pecking order and trying to get better from there. 

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

ps - what would Bill do?  :Wink:

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## AlanN

So true.

And I ain't the guitarist. I'm the mando guy. I won't tell the guitarist how to play, that's his/her thing. But I do know a thing or 2 (like on Stoney Creek, although the number is in A major, you don't want the capo on 2 because of the bridge and the overall feel of the tune) and if the guitar has an open mind [and ears], he or she will listen to advice - or better yet, figure it out on their own - to make the tune the best it can be.

Yes...WWBD. I always liked something he said when he was talking about a then-new tune he had just wrote (Bill-speak), My Last Days On Earth. This was in an interview in MWN. He mostly said (paraphrasing) "All you'd need is a bass and guitar...(direct quote here) _If He Was Quiet With It_

Bill had the ear, knew what was needed. Wish more did.

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## AlanN

And another thing   :Laughing: 

There are those pickers who insist on _playing_, even if they're unsure of how a tune goes. Drives me nuts. I was at a festival campsite jam a couple of weeks ago. I was sitting next to a banjo man who didn't know a particular tune. Yet, he kept playing anyway. The guitar man was on the V, banjo man was on the IV. I was real tempted to say, gently, "Please stfu and listen". Did not. Trouble is, I was a bit trapped by the jam logistics, other pickers in the way, etc. Couldn't rightly leave. 

And some guitar pickers do the same, at times. I am just the opposite. If I don't know it, I don't play it (until I know it). Simple enough, right?

----------

Amanda Gregg, 

Misty Stanley-Jones

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## sblock

> Yes, Mike. I feel like I'm being scolded by sblock. No matter, I don't know the person and hardly want to


AlanN,

Youch! I sincerely apologize to you if my remarks caused any personal offense -- these were certainly not intended to. It's sometimes difficult to convey a nuanced thought, and to register an opinion that differs, especially when sensibilities run high.  Also, my comments weren't directly aimed at you, even if I  -- somewhat inartfully, in retrospect -- quoted your post in my comment.  I do regret that.

Please let me try to explain better. I've been trying to push back in this forum against the notion that the "bluegrass form" is some simplistic recipe that, among other things, avoids the use of minor chords, diminished chords, and the like. These things can, and do, form a part of bluegrass music, and I see no convincing evidence that Bill Monroe (or the other Bluegrass Boys) shied away from them.  

So I think that's something of a misperception.  As others have already pointed out (but perhaps less provocatively), this misperception tends to get reinforced by (at least some) jammers whose awareness or skill levels tend to be more limited. They quite naturally tend to select the easiest-to-play pieces, which is completely understandable.  As several of the posters have already discussed, it's often necessary to telegraph the chords "on the fly" in such situations (using hand gestures or called numbers or suchlike), and that can be hard enough when there are only three or four chords involved (I-IV-V and VII). It can be impractical when there are more. And I am not unsympathetic to that. But these common-denominator songs are, of necessity, not fully representative of the bluegrass "canon" as a whole.  Bluegrass music, to my way of thinking, is much, much richer, and musically more sophisticated, than just the top 20 jam favorites. (But even these, I have argued earlier, have the occasional minor chord in them!) 

Furthermore, bluegrass music evolved a great deal over the course of Bill Monroe's long and storied career, and it has continued to evolve to this day. So, I have to admit, it just bugs me when folks insist that the bluegrass form is "I-IV-V."  It's kind of a pet peeve of mine, I guess. You read a lot of posts on this forum about the mythical "bluegrass police" who define, or enforce, some set of rules.  This reminds me of the that.

That said, it's darned hard to define a bluegrass form. Actually, the same holds true for jazz or pop or almost any other musical form. A bit like pornography, this may be a case of _"I don't quite know how to define it, but I know it when I hear it!"_  :Wink: 

Anyway, I hope you understand me better now and I am sorry, once again, if you got offended.

----------


## Amanda Gregg

> There are those pickers who insist on _playing_, even if they're unsure of how a tune goes.


...or, might I add, when there is already plenty of sound in a jam.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with letting someone else take the chop and patiently waiting for your moment to add a fill or a break or take up the chop if they let it slip.  

Thanks so much, Alan, for that comment.

----------


## AlanN

sblock - no worries. We are all passionate about our little corner of the music world.

Amanda - Right on. That why I dig guys like Bobby O, Doyle, John Reischman, Big Mon, (insert name here) - these pickers do not just chop/chop/chop - they ebb and flow, lay back, come in and out, when needed. Many times, I'll just stop playing if it becomes too much, will just hold the mandolin, yet still be a part of the jam.

----------

Mike Bunting

----------


## Amanda Gregg

> Many times, I'll just stop playing if it becomes too much, will just hold the mandolin, yet still be a part of the jam.


Exactly!

I think there are many who feel that, if they stop playing, they're no longer "part of the jam" and feel like they aren't having fun anymore.  Nonsense!  Paying attention to what is going on and how you are contributing is exactly what it means to be part of a jam.  

Sorry, is this a tangent?  Maybe, though it seems essential to a conversation about "bluegrass form."

----------

Jesse Weitzenfeld, 

Mike Bunting

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## MikeEdgerton

One of the problems I see is that folks seem to think they have to play every song in a jam. You learn to appreciate the folks that will step off to the side to quietly figure out what they need to do.

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## Jesse Weitzenfeld

Yes!  Thank you!  Dont play unless you can add something.  Bluegrass hates redundancy almost as much as it hates poor timing and minor chords.  Unfortunately many jammers come to _jam_, not make good music.

You know how to tell the really good banjo player at a bluegrass jam?  Hes the one not playing.  Thats not a joke.  But it's funny.

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## Ole Joe Clark

In our weekly public jam, the 9th's diminished, etc., are call breakup chords. :-) After about 2 hrs of 3 chords and a cloud of dust, I'll call a tune in -F- and do an intro to "Sweet Georgia Brown" using the 9th progression from F9 up to F and my picking buddy does the rest. About half of the pickers suddenly start packing up. Then we have about an hour to pick tunes that we like.

Joe

----------

