# Instruments and Equipment > Videos, Pictures & Sound Files >  Wiens #24

## Justin Carvitto

I enjoy looking at new and old mandolins on this page, so I'll contribute to the cause and do some uploading of photos on my dial up.

Over All this mandolin is awesome. It sounds and plays better than it looks, which is pretty impressive. Jamie does a great all-around job as many people already know. I'm a super happy. 

Enjoy,
Justin

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## mandomania7923

stunning. i heard that he hand rubs his sunbursts. is this true?

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## Larry S Sherman

Incredible...beautiful...amazing...enjoy!

Larry

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## JEStanek

Congratulations on the new Wiens.  Any details you can share? Virzi (Wienzi), woods?  Looks spectacular.

Jamie (not Wiens)

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## hank

Very very nice!  Beautiful work Jamie.  Does it have a wienzi?

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## Shawn Gambrel

Man that is one slick mandolin  :Mad:  wish I had it

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## Mark Seale

A stunning instrument, congratulations to you and kudos to Jamie.  The sunburst is fantastic, I really like that concentrated small burst.  One question, is Jamie not building full time?  It seems its been a while between 23 and 24.  Regardless, its just beautiful and well worth any wait!

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## Chris Biorkman

His instruments are beautiful. Some of the prettiest I've seen. I'm curious as to why his output is so low. Anyone know why?

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## Jonathan James

Congrats on the new Wiens, Justin.  Just beautiful!

Mine is not far behind #24 and will feature a Wienzi, wood from the same batch as DanB's #23, full pickguard and a slightly wider neck. Can't wait.

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## Jake Wildwood

Lovely!

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## craigtoo

Congrats...!

#21 Comes back and forth to work with me everyday!  (Entirely for research purposes you understand...)   :Wink:

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## Justin Carvitto

Yes, the stain and finish are all hand rubbed. He does a great job dialing it in to look like something from '24.

This has an Adirondack Spruce top with no Wienzi in it's belly.

Jamie's headstocks are pretty amazing with the authentic fern inlay. This is an update since Dan's.

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## JEStanek

Wow.  That's nice.

Jamie

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## barry

"......I'm curious as to why his output is so low. Anyone know why?" 
__________________


I just looked at the Weins database on the Mandolin Archive.  He made one instrument over a 20 month period.  I don't know anything about Jamie, but I can only assume that mandolin building is not his full time occupation.  If it is, he might consider flipping burgers at McDonalds and quadrupling his income. 

 :Smile:

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## earthsave

I've only seen and played one Wiens and it was stunning all the way around.

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## Chris Biorkman

I like the thicker binding he uses. It looks really nice.

Here are some non-traditional headstock pictures from his Flickr page. Very interesting.

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## deepmountain

"......I'm curious as to why his output is so low. Anyone know why?" 

I wonder about his output also...I put down a deposit and got on his list in Feb. '04. At that time he told me it was a two year wait. More than 4 years later, without being able to get an explanation or new delivery date, I cancelled the order. It cost me $450 that he kept as a cancellation fee.

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## doc holiday

There are other stories as well about time frames etc
 :Popcorn:

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## Chris Biorkman

> There are other stories as well about time frames etc


About Jamie Wiens?

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## doc holiday

in a word, yes

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## Gary Hedrick

If indeed he is off on his delivery date promises by years then he would not be alone in that behavior. I personally have had those experiences. There are a number of the best builders that have the problem. I have always chalked it up to the pursuit of perfection and the sometimes quirkie nature of the artist.
Not good business.....frustrating as hell but a reality one should be prepared for.....

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## Bob Stolkin

> If indeed he is off on his delivery date promises by years then he would not be alone in that behavior. I personally have had those experiences. There are a number of the best builders that have the problem. I have always chalked it up to the pursuit of perfection and the sometimes quirkie nature of the artist.
> Not good business.....frustrating as hell but a reality one should be prepared for.....


I get the artist mentality and all that, and I agree that patience is a must, but I don't understand forfeiting the deposit if you're talking about years past the forecasted delivery date.  That's getting downright eccentric.

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## grassrootphilosopher

Let´s please not speculate. If anyone knows, I´d be more than interested in knowing facts. Until then, please leave the guesswork alone. I know about wait time, anticipation gets you down but there are other ways of dealing with it.

Back to the instrument: How does it sound? Could we have some soundclips/video etc. even though you´re on dial-up time Justin Carvitto? Maybe someone could post those for you...

I´d be quite interested in other musical referrences compared to the "Beimborn Files" and the rather dondescript (interesting nontheless) A-B soundfile (Loar vs. Wiens) on the Wiens website.

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## Skip Kelley

Jamie builds a fine mandolin!! Congratulations!

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## Mark Seale

> Let´s please not speculate. If anyone knows, I´d be more than interested in knowing facts. Until then, please leave the guesswork alone. I know about wait time, anticipation gets you down but there are other ways of dealing with it.
> 
> Back to the instrument: How does it sound? Could we have some soundclips/video etc. even though you´re on dial-up time Justin Carvitto? Maybe someone could post those for you...
> 
> I´d be quite interested in other musical referrences compared to the "Beimborn Files" and the rather dondescript (interesting nontheless) A-B soundfile (Loar vs. Wiens) on the Wiens website.



I'm sorry I mentioned it now... And I'm with you, I just want to hear that mando sing.  And more pictures!

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## grassrootphilosopher

> I'm sorry I mentioned it now... And I'm with you, I just want to hear that mando sing.  And more pictures!


Don´t bother, you didn´t speculate. If you´re into guitars you will find that people like John Arnold or Wayne Henderson have waiting lists that exceed 8 years or more. It might be interesting to know why a wait is so long and there might be an explanation. It´s just for the informed to shed a light on the matter.

Other than that, Justin, break out the instrument, record some and get it posted, we´re all waiting. :Mandosmiley:

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## doc holiday

While some luthiers do have long wait times, those are in many cases given up front, and of course there are sometimes extenuating circumstances.  I would say that in the long run the reputation of a luthier depends not only on the  qualities of the instruments he makes but also on his business practices in dealing fairly with those who chose to order his instruments.  As far as "speculation" let's just say that it's a long way from Germany to Western Canada.
 :Coffee:

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## grassrootphilosopher

> While some luthiers do have long wait times, those are in many cases given up front, and of course there are sometimes extenuating circumstances.  I would say that in the long run the reputation of a luthier depends not only on the  qualities of the instruments he makes but also on his business practices in dealing fairly with those who chose to order his instruments.  As far as "speculation" let's just say that it's a long way from Germany to Western Canada.


It surely is a long stretch from Europe to the new world. On the other hand the world has downsized quite a bit with the advent of the internet, cheaper telephone fares, airplanes and maybe some friends and relations in distant parts of the world. 

I agree that the luthier´s reputation is linked closely to his business practiques as well as his craft. Having a Paul Duff F 5 that travelled from Down Under to up here and having waited for about 3 years I can say that Paul Duff has performed in the most extraordinary and perfect way imaginable. I did not wait any longer than he told me when I placed the order. Needless to say that the mandolin surpasses Paul Duff´s reputation in quality and sound. On the other hand there are makers like the legendary Wyatt Fawley (in the banjo business) who went through unimaginable health and other problems which threw him out of the loop and made waiting (almost) unbearable for his clients even though he is still highly respected, and rightfully so.  

And like I said, if you are informed about wait times and why they are so prolonged, about Jamie Wien´s bussiness practiques, about the question if he builds full time or part time, of his system of numbering his instruments, spill the beans and let´s get it over with. 

Justin Carvitto waited about five years for his instrument when originally it was supposed to be 2 years. Folks in the German Democratic Republic (east Germany) waited 15 years for a car, counting the waiting time after full payment of the automobile. 

Was a 5-year wait worth it? Does steak taste better than bramborak? By the pictures I would judge that Justin is well pleased, that he figured the time well spent and that he doesn´t care about the question about steak and bramborak.

More pictures of the instrument and well recorded, well played soundfiles/videos please.

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## Chris Biorkman

Doubling an already long wait time with no explanation is a pretty bad way to do business. I was considering getting on his list at one point, and even though his work is really stunning, I'm very glad I didn't.

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## Justin Carvitto

Hi,

I guess the wait needs to be addressed, this wasn't the intent of the thread... oh well, thats fine. I can understand everybody's opinion. 

I did research after John Reicshman recomended that I look into getting a Wiens. He said he puts out quality mandolins and that he was "up and coming". In this "research" I noticed that Jamie took longer than what the estimated date usually was (Stone's article and other wiens owners). So, I was prepared to wait going into this. Yeah, it was a 2 year wait. Yes, it took five years. But the mandolin I ordered wasn't that mandolin I recieved. Jamie totally changed everything he was doing around the 2 year mark to match the new mandolin design. I remember being on the phone with him telling him how much I liked the "Schultz" loar and how it was my dream mandolin. He proceded to strum that exact mandolin on the phone! He had the SCHULTZ LOAR as his new template. I was VERY excited about that. 

Yes, it was a tough wait. Yes, my friends teased me about "my new mandolin" pretty much everyweek. But now, I get to bring this awesome mandolin to the jams and YES, I am 100% satisfied and expected nothing less. I'm happy I got the 2009 mandolin vs. the 2004 mandolin with all the improvements (just take a look at the wiens archive). In the long run, 5 years wait is nothing to 50 years of ownership.

I'm excited to see what Jamie puts out in the future with his untraditional touches. Also I noticed that Jamie did change his ording policy. 

I'm surprised Dan B. hasn't replied to the thread actually...he's like the Wiens liaiason/public spokes person.

Sorry Grassroots: sounds and video are out of my league. I'll try to do photos, but it won't be for another month or so. I'll be on a climbing road trip for the rest of the summer.

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## Chris Biorkman

Well it looks fantastic. Clearly, he is very good at what he does. Have fun with it.

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## deepmountain

I agree he makes a fine mandolin, that's why I ordered one from him and sent him $5000 over the first two years, thinking luthiers need some cash flow. If he would have told me it would be five years at the beginning I would not have ordered one from him. I was 62 years old when I put down the initial deposit to get on the list. After 4 1/2 years of waiting, he would not give me any idea of how much longer it would be. And when he answered my inquiry by calling me a "PIA" and telling me "he could build them good or he could build them bad" I cancelled the order and forfeited the $450. 

I grew up on bluegrass music with the kind of people whose word was good and treated people with courtesy and respect. Anyway, when I got my money back I bought an R.L. Givens F5 from Cotton Music and I couldn't be happier. 

So keep pickin'!

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## danb

> I'm surprised Dan B. hasn't replied to the thread actually...he's like the Wiens liaiason/public spokes person.


Jamie's my friend, but I'm not in his spokesman. I have talked alot about my own instrument through pride and the sheer joy of having it- I think he knocked the "Loar style F5" project out of the park. I know I've smothered this board with photos and praise for Jamie, matching my own level of excitement.

The process of working on the Loar redesign (my instrument!) took up way more time than Jamie had originally budgeted. I'm not sure what the trigger was, but we both had Loar fever and he went all in. We traded hundreds of emails, many long phone calls, and lots of photos showcasing details of construction and what makes the Loars physically what they are. He borrowed a couple Loars during the build, made design changes, measurements, etc in this process too. This was a complete re-design of all his parts, manufacturing process, and included many experimental paths to get it right. Once he got dialled into 76547 specifically, there were even more details to hunt down to see what gave that mandolin it's voice.

The waits are indeed longer than he planned, mostly on the back of this redesign. The result is a heck of a lot more mandolin than was originally ordered.. once it arrives that's certainly a lot of consolation for the time spent waiting. The wait is hard, waiting sucks. All the satisifaction comes in one lump sum at the end, and the interim give you plenty of opportunity to worry and experience anxiety. 

Justin's F5 looks fantastic, and I hope we can meet up some day and play them together!

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## Jonathan James

Much like Justin, I did an enormous amount of research into up-and-coming luthiers when I elected to send in my deposit to Jamie for a custom built F5 some time ago.  The mandolin I will shortly take delivery of will be 10X more instrument than I originally ordered.  Do I wish the wait was shorter?  Of course, but I'm extremely confident that the instrument I'm getting will greatly exceed all of my expectations.  Ask the experts like Tony Williamson, Tom Rozum and John Reischman; Jamie Wiens is building some of the closest Loar replicas out there today, to incredibly exacting standards.  That pursuit of perfection takes time, but I for one, am willing to wait happily.  Others may not, but that's the beauty of our little mandolin world. There are lots of builders to choose from.  :Coffee:

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## Chris Biorkman

Do you know if he has another job? It looks like he has made three mandolins in the last three years, so it seems like he does.

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## Mark Seale

> Jamie's my friend, but I'm not in his spokesman. I have talked alot about my own instrument through pride and the sheer joy of having it- I think he knocked the "Loar style F5" project out of the park. I know I've smothered this board with photos and praise for Jamie, matching my own level of excitement.
> 
> The process of working on the Loar redesign (my instrument!) took up way more time than Jamie had originally budgeted. I'm not sure what the trigger was, but we both had Loar fever and he went all in. We traded hundreds of emails, many long phone calls, and lots of photos showcasing details of construction and what makes the Loars physically what they are. He borrowed a couple Loars during the build, made design changes, measurements, etc in this process too. This was a complete re-design of all his parts, manufacturing process, and included many experimental paths to get it right. Once he got dialled into 76547 specifically, there were even more details to hunt down to see what gave that mandolin it's voice.
> 
> The waits are indeed longer than he planned, mostly on the back of this redesign. The result is a heck of a lot more mandolin than was originally ordered.. once it arrives that's certainly a lot of consolation for the time spent waiting. The wait is hard, waiting sucks. All the satisifaction comes in one lump sum at the end, and the interim give you plenty of opportunity to worry and experience anxiety. 
> 
> Justin's F5 looks fantastic, and I hope we can meet up some day and play them together!



So, really if we break this down to its bare minimum, it was your fault that everyone got 2.5 years added to their wait time.   :Chicken:   :Chicken:   :Chicken:

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## Woody Turner

As a professional woodworker and writer for the last 30 years, it's hard for me to imagine circumstances that would delay--without penalty to the artist--project completion much beyond a specified deadline. Honoring contracts is what it means to be in business. If illness or tragedy or whatever strikes the studio, the commission or advance should be forfeited at the client's request if an accommodation cannot be made. Whether the artisit is pushing the envelope or making a monumental contribution to the field is--IMO--irrelevant: one's word has been given and should be honored. I still believe that artists and artisans can innovate and experiment while/after fulfilling their commitments. Of course, I don't know what the original agreements were in the instances of disappointment mentioned above. I'm just speaking about the general principle of living up to oral and written contracts.

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## sgarrity

Some folks are betters artists than business people.  From the looks of the pics and sound clips, these mandolins are the real deal and Jamey is an amazing artist.  Hopefully he'll get caught up and put some proper business practices in place.

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## MandoCowboy

Time for a Weins mandolin role call.  Who has one and who has one on order?

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## grassrootphilosopher

MandoCowboy wanted to know who´s got a Wiens and who´s got one on order.

Now there are three threads right now that sort of run in the same vein, Ken Olmsted´s "Brentrup Stealth" thread, Jonas´ "Campanella" thread and Bjorkman´s thread on "Vana" (due to the old "Vana" thread and the Bill Graham article).

I think that comparison is a nice thing. I like to know about the builders and their products. So I´m giving this thread a bump, hoping that it receives some more feedback.

Justin, if you´re back from your climbing road trip, I´d like to see more pictures and hear your instrument played. I´d also like to see aditional building pictures (other than those on the Wiens homepage).

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## Yonkle

Jamie's Mandolins rule! Period.

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## MandoCowboy

Yonkle,

Do you own a Wiens Mando?

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## mandomick

Hey all! Haven't posted for a spell, been in the "Telecaster and Tweed tube amp" mode for a year or so.

Looks like Jamie built a winner for Justin. Congrats on both ends. But.... :Disbelief: 

For a builder to go 2 1/2 yrs over projected delivery, call the inquiring customer a PIA and then KEEP $450 of his deposit? I don't care who Mr. Wiens thinks he is, he ain't even close to being all that!

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## doc holiday

Interestingly enough there is a build spot for sale for a Weins.
Sounds like a lottery ticket
 :Smile:

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## Glassweb

when we place an order for a custom-built mandolin there is _always_ the possibility that the instrument, for any number of real or imagined reasons, will not be delivered/completed when promised. frustrating? YES! what can we, as patrons do? i wish i had the answer. i went through a similar experience years ago when i ordered a mandolin from a well-known builder and he proved to be very lax with his committments. when the mandolin finally arrived i didn't care for it and i got my money refunded. it's the risk you run in a custom order... that's why i prefer buying already existing instruments...

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## lmartnla

If you ever wonder what acronyms stand for, try the useful website I just found while searching for the meaning of PIA, used in the *deepmountain* post above.  

http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/PIA

My guess is that 'pain in the ass' was meant, but in the context it could have been payment in advance, Planned Incremental Availability, procurement integrity act, Part in Assembly, or Program Initiation Agreement---Lou  

Acronym	Definition
PIA	Philippine Information Agency
PIA	Professional Insurance Agents
PIA	Privacy Impact Assessment
PIA	Pakistan International Airlines (ICAO code)
PIA	Parachute Industry Association
PIA	Pittsburgh International Airport
PIA	Printing Industries of America
PIA	Pearson International Airport (Toronto, Canada)
PIA	Primary Insurance Amount (US Social Security)
PIA	Primary Interop Assembly
PIA	Personal Investment Authority
PIA	Pain In the Ass
PIA	Peripheral Interface Adapter
PIA	Prison Industry Authority (California)
PIA	Primary Immunodeficiency Association
PIA	Peoplesoft Internet Architecture
PIA	Paid In Advance
PIA	Planned Incremental Availability
PIA	Payment In Advance
PIA	Products in Action
PIA	Personal Injury Accident
PIA	Plastics Institute of America
PIA	Proprietary Information Agreement
PIA	Participatory Impact Assessment
PIA	Professional Inventors Alliance
PIA	Procurement Integrity Act
PIA	Porcine Intestinal Adenomatosis
PIA	Progressive Indirect Attack
PIA	Partnership Intermediary Agreement
PIA	Peoria, IL, USA - Greater Peoria Airport (Airport Code)
PIA	Parent Interviews for Autism
PIA	Programmable Interface Adapter
PIA	Public Information Agency
PIA	Protein Interaction Analysis
PIA	Particulate Impact Analyzer
PIA	Program Independent Assessment
PIA	Photometers for Imaging the Aurora (Astrid-2 spacecraft)
PIA	Propagation and Infection Analysis
PIA	Propellant Isolation Assembly
PIA	Public Information Advisor
PIA	Part in Assembly
PIA	Programme Implementation Agency (India)
PIA	Process Improvement Associates (training and management consulting company)
PIA	Priority Inversion Avoidance
PIA	Program Initiation Agreement
PIA	Power Injected Amplifier (structured home wiring for cable TV, internet, & audio distribution)
PIA	Pyongyang International Airport
PIA	Post Instructional Activity (aka homework)
PIA	Photon-counting Image Acquisition
PIA	Pre Infarct Angina
PIA	Power Interface Assembly
PIA	Program Initiation Authorization
PIA	Perfect Information Algorithm
PIA	Plant Inspection Assistant
PIA	Packet Immediate Assignment
PIA	Proxy Interceptor Agent

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## Jonathan James

Interesting development in the classifieds....I can't recall seeing a spot on a builder's waitlist being sold.  Someone could end up with a very nice instrument, at a fraction of the wait time. (NFI)

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## man dough nollij

> If you ever wonder what acronyms stand for, try the useful website I just found while searching for the meaning of PIA, used in the *deepmountain* post above.


I thought it was obvious from the context that PIA stands for Particulate Impact Analyzer.  :Smile:

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## MandoCowboy

I thought I'd get more play from my request for a Weins Mando role call.

Strange how a builder has built only 3 mandos in the last 3 years.  Maybe that's the reason.

There appears to be a high level of writeups in national pubs, and other related internet sites.  3 mandos in 3 years seems a short sample size.  I would think that a builder would have to have a longer track record to get such recognition.

The announcement of #25 on the cafe was in a very strange way.

Some weirdness going on here?

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## Randy Smith

> Over All this mandolin is awesome. It sounds and plays better than it looks, which is pretty impressive. Jamie does a great all-around job as many people already know. I'm a super happy. 
> 
> Enjoy,
> Justin



Justin, congrats on the beautiful mandolin!  Get Sasquatch to play you some rhythm.

You enjoy too,

R.S.

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## DougC

Existing instruments are far easier to compare, but it is very difficult to get a bunch of top instruments in one room and compare them. Does everyone here want to see for example a Gillcrest, Dudenbostel, Bentrup, Ellis and whatever else (please forgive my omissions and spelling) in one room? The violin folks have just that in their meetings of International Violin Association and they award a prize for best sound and another for best build quality-every year. Do the Mandolin / guitar conferences do as much?

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## Chris Biorkman

> Interesting development in the classifieds....I can't recall seeing a spot on a builder's waitlist being sold.  Someone could end up with a very nice instrument, at a fraction of the wait time. (NFI)


Yes, or someone could sit around waiting for another couple of years for a mandolin that might or might not ever be completed. I have a feeling that if the seller had any reasonable expectation of delivery anytime in the near future, that the slot wouldn't be for sale in the first place.

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## MandoCowboy

Weins website says he's no longer taking orders, but you can give him $250 non-refundable to get on a list for a chance to buy one.

That is really strange.

What does that really mean?

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## Miked

From the Wiens website:

"It is my intention that this new policy change will make the process of waiting for a much-anticipated instrument more enjoyable for my patrons"

Hmmm...
Me thinks that wouldn't bring much enjoyment.  I guess you would have to want a Weins mandolin REALLY REALLY bad to buy into the new policy.

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## grassrootphilosopher

DougC,
on festivals or gettogethers the mando diehards get to see quite a bit of mandolin. That does not necessarily include "all" builders (there are too many), but on a good day you could see the top tier luthier mandolins being played together. I´ve made the experience that top tier luthier mandolin pickers are as nice as the mandolins they play. They let me try out theirs and I´ve been able to do some extensive comparing.

Chris, 
I had a picking buddy once buy out a build slot on a Gilchrist mandolin. The seller had a build slot on a Gilchrist mandolin but not the funds to purchase the instrument. He posted an ad (here on the classifieds) and my picking buddy bought him out. Things like that happen. They could happen with regards to a Wiens mandolin too.

MandoCowboy,
as I know it, it is a well documented practice for a builder to get buyers on a waiting list with a certain "downpayment". When the buyer does not pick up the instrument he ordered, he will be out of his "fee" and the instrument moves on. It´s not so strange to see things like that. When I ordered my Duff F-5 style mandolin I also payed a certain sum in advance. No big deal.

Miked,
I don´t think that the new Wiens policy is out of the ordinary. If you go to the Gruhn site you´ll see that Steve Gilchrist is taking orders for his Style-1 snakehead as well as for some F-5 style mandolins. Would you work out specifics or would you get "the average mandolin"? With Gilchrist mandolins it wouldn´t matter will be the general opinion, right?

Now, I do not intend to compare apples to oranges, Gilchrists to Wiens; I just think that more insight is needed.

The open questions are:
- What caused the delay?
- Is Jamie Wiens building full time and if not what is his day job?
- If Jamie Wiens has a day job, how much time is left to build mandos?
- What will be the output of mandolins in the (near future)?

If you check the "Wiens archive" at Dan Beimborns mandolinarchive site, you will see that apart from the mandolin in this thread Jamie Wiens has completed one more mandolin this year. Does that tell anything? No. Is it an indicator that production will speed up? Could be?

Questions, questions and no answers so far.

(As a sidenote; even though I would like to try out a Wiens (gonna maybe track down DanB one day) I don´t have an affiliation to Jamie Wiens or his mandolins)

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## danb

Olaf, drop me a note if you're ever passing through London and I'd be happy to show it to you.

I spoke to Jamie the other day, it sounds like #26 is just about to head out the door to a cafe member.

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## Justin Carvitto

I'm looking forward to seeing 26 on the archive, especially after 25. That one literally looks hot.

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## grassrootphilosopher

> Olaf, drop me a note if you're ever passing through London and I'd be happy to show it to you.
> 
> I spoke to Jamie the other day, it sounds like #26 is just about to head out the door to a cafe member.


I´d be pleased to do just that.

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## MandoCowboy

From grassrootphilosopher

"MandoCowboy,
as I know it, it is a well documented practice for a builder to get buyers on a waiting list with a certain "downpayment". When the buyer does not pick up the instrument he ordered, he will be out of his "fee" and the instrument moves on. It´s not so strange to see things like that. When I ordered my Duff F-5 style mandolin I also payed a certain sum in advance. No big deal."


I don't think the $250 admin fee that Wiens trying to charge is an "order" deposit.  Seems like to me you give him the money and then you get a "chance" to bid on his mandos if one ever comes up for sale.  

His website implies that his order book is full.  For builder to have built barely 2 mandos (3 now) in over 2 years is a really slow production rate.  He either has very few orders or the folks that have placed an order will wait a very long time and cannot be happy about that.

Since the admin fee is a "no refund" deal, I hear a flushing sound on that one.  I can't see how doing something like that is good for business.  Something is not right with that picture.

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## kirksdad

I have to agree. the wording of his policy would scare off most folks, and maybe thats what the boy wants.......

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## grassrootphilosopher

> I don't think the $250 admin fee that Wiens trying to charge is an "order" deposit.  Seems like to me you give him the money and then you get a "chance" to bid on his mandos if one ever comes up for sale.  
> 
> Since the admin fee is a "no refund" deal, I hear a flushing sound on that one.  I can't see how doing something like that is good for business.  Something is not right with that picture.


Well, Jamie Wien´s website says this: 
"The $250 fee will be deducted from the purchase price at the time of final sale."
That means, the money is not "gone".

I have builders in mind that take absurdly long to get an instrument done. One of the best known luthiers with excedingly long waiting time is Wayne Henderson. John Arnold also comes to mind. I have seen luthier´s websites where you get on the waiting list with a "downpayment" and will not have a fixed price at that point. Is it worth it? To those who want the instrument, yes. For me waiting 10 years or so for an instrument seems a little bit too much. But more power to the builder if he´s so much in demand that he can keep customers waiting that long. Their work must be good then. (There´s allways the risk for the luthier that after a 10 year waiting period the customer is dead, or the economy prohibits the purchase of yet another instrument, or the wife doesn´t want it, or...)

And to anyone who might be interested in a Wiens mandolin, they´ll surely inquire what they´ll get and how the whole procedure is about to work out.

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## Dfyngravity

I don't see why builders charge $ to "get on a list". I have had a couple custom instruments built and once my name came up next on the list I then paid my deposit and was told how long it would be until delivery and was also in heavy e-mail correspondence with the builders throughout the process. I have not problem putting money down once it's my time, but to simply be put on the list is another thing. I don't see why you can't simply put a name on a list and when it comes up if the person wants to continue with the process they then pay a down payment or they are simply removed from the list or moved to the end of the list again. But I guess if people are willing to pay you to get on a list then take their money.

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## Fretbear

Is that flowerpot a red chili?

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## Randy Smith

> I don't see why builders charge $ to "get on a list". I have had a couple custom instruments built and once my name came up next on the list I then paid my deposit and was told how long it would be until delivery and was also in heavy e-mail correspondence with the builders throughout the process. I have not problem putting money down once it's my time, but to simply be put on the list is another thing. I don't see why you can't simply put a name on a list and when it comes up if the person wants to continue with the process they then pay a down payment or they are simply removed from the list or moved to the end of the list again. But I guess if people are willing to pay you to get on a list then take their money.



Since for decades I've worked a job for which I've been guaranteed a year's employment each time, I can understand a builder wanting to set up a year's work in order to project income.  Many workers might not know if they'll be employed the following week, but **if a builder keeps to a reasonable and communicated time schedule** (perhaps changed because of emergency), then asking for a deposit to create a waiting list seems fair.
Yes, the buyer should know the time frame, and yes, the builder should always be in contact with the buyer.  But if the builder is popular enough to stay very busy, a buyer might get the mandolin he wants sooner than otherwise even though he was asked to get on a list months before the building started.
*However*, the problem with the policy stated on Wiens' cite is that the buyer is paying $250. to ". . . purchase a new Wiens instrument on an 'as available' basis."  Imo, that doesn't sound like the buyer will get even a guess whether that availability will come, two, five, or ten years later.  
      Wiens' policy itself is ethical, but it's very vague.  To be fair to Wiens, maybe if a buyer called Wiens, maybe the builder would clear things up and give the buyer a realistic sense of how long he could expect to wait to be offered a chance to buy a mandolin.  As already said, some person might want to wait ten years for a Wiens.  They're incredible instruments.
      But unless Wiens will make his "new policy" (his term) clearer, I'm puzzled how this policy might make ". . .the waiting for a much-atinicpated instrument more enjoyable for [his] patrons" (quote from his site). 

Randy S.

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## Dfyngravity

I agree with you there Randy. But you know many people own their own businesses, as do I. I own a landscape design and installation company and help run my Dad's construction company so I know the feeling of whether or not you are going to have business from day to day. A few years back it wasn't nothing to have work backed up for 3 to 6 months. But I couldn't imagine asking people to pay any dollar amount to wait in line until I get to them. Though I am proud to say that I had built a good name for myself so most people were and are still willing to wait, though in today's economy I don't usually have a back log of work. 

I don't really have a problem with a builder asking for a deposit to get on the waiting list as long as there is some definite timeline and you are able to reach and correspond with the builder regularly even if it isn't your turn for the build for a while. I always tell people to call me to see where I am at with my schedule because as you mentioned Randy, if you stay busy and on top of things, usually you will get to people sooner than expected. 

Hopefully there are people out there on the waiting list that can maybe explain it a little further....?

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## Mike Bunting

Seems sort of arrogant to charge money just to get on a list so that he might get around to making you a mandolin

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