# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  So what is the "real" value of a Loar in today's world?

## Gary Hedrick

I see the wonderful Loars that are posted in  the Classifieds.  There are a few others out there at other stores as well.

8 years ago a quarter of a million was the asking price on some. From there the asking price has declined. 

One never knows what the "real" sale price is. (Assuming that they are exchanging hands)

So what should I be putting away in my piggy bank for that one last purchase before I die?

----------


## Jeff Mando

My advice, based on years of "horse trading" is that it is a BUYER'S market right now.  By that I mean buy like a dealer would for resale and get your "profit" on the front end by negotiating (nice word for it!) down from the asking price.  KEEP IN MIND most stores do not own these instruments, they are on consignment and the actual owners will get MUCH LESS than the asking price.  That said, a signed Loar will always be a blue chip investment and something you can enjoy while retaining its value (and hopefully go up in value -- if you buy right)

----------


## 9lbShellhamer

A4 or F5, F4?

----------


## Beanzy

Well apparently the F5 MM price went up from $200 to $250 in 1923 which as a bit of a laugh could be compounded x 93years of 25% price increases giving $257,377,879,473.40 today. I say it's a snip at todays prices  :Laughing:

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

There are no Loar-signed A4 or F4 Gibson mandolins.  A4 and F4 from that period generally sell for above non-Loar period instruments, but not significantly so - except for the Snakehead A4 or the A2Z - and still nowhere near the F5.

----------

9lbShellhamer

----------


## William Smith

> I see the wonderful Loars that are posted in  the Classifieds.  There are a few others out there at other stores as well.
> 
> 8 years ago a quarter of a million was the asking price on some. From there the asking price has declined. 
> 
> One never knows what the "real" sale price is. (Assuming that they are exchanging hands)
> 
> So what should I be putting away in my piggy bank for that one last purchase before I die?


Well there are about 15 Loar 5's for sale now at different places that I've found and a few Loar signed mandolas, also about 10 ferns,flowerpot,fluer-de-lis F-5's from post Loar up to 1942. I could write all of em down but it would take too long. Some have been sitting for well over 2-3 years now. They're not moving like they did when the price was up and everyone wanted one. Hence drive the price up. Shows state of economics lately? I personally think people would rather not spend that kind of $ on an instrument, there is a small club that will. Dealers of course get a fat percentage.
    I was offered a real nice late 1924 December Loar F-5 from a private seller with minor work done on it for 80G or so, He seemed serious. I don't have that kind of cash or I'd buy it. I think thats a deal. We all know that the price for anything is what we will pay for something if we want it bad enough. I'd pay 80G for one of the original Loar's no? no doubt. I may have got off the subject but keep watching em at the dealers, They aint going nowhere.

----------

Gary Hedrick

----------


## 9lbShellhamer

> There are no Loar-signed A4 or F4 Gibson mandolins.  A4 and F4 from that period generally sell for above non-Loar period instruments, but not significantly so - except for the Snakehead A4 or the A2Z - and still nowhere near the F5.


Oooooh. Thanks. Didn't realize there weren't signed snakeheads.

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

... and ONE Loar-signed A5.

----------

fernmando, 

RichieK

----------


## Gary Hedrick

An an F4? or F2? with Lloyd's moniker on the inside of the truss rod cover if I remember correctly....

----------

woodwizard

----------


## Gary Hedrick

> Well there are about 15 Loar 5's for sale now at different places that I've found and a few Loar signed mandolas, also about 10 ferns,flowerpot,fluer-de-lis F-5's from post Loar up to 1942. I could write all of em down but it would take too long. Some have been sitting for well over 2-3 years now. They're not moving like they did when the price was up and everyone wanted one. Hence drive the price up. Shows state of economics lately? I personally think people would rather not spend that kind of $ on an instrument, there is a small club that will. Dealers of course get a fat percentage.
>     I was offered a real nice late 1924 December Loar F-5 from a private seller with minor work done on it for 80G or so, He seemed serious. I don't have that kind of cash or I'd buy it. I think thats a deal. We all know that the price for anything is what we will pay for something if we want it bad enough. I'd pay 80G for one of the original Loar's no? no doubt. I may have got off the subject but keep watching em at the dealers, They aint going nowhere.


Well Mr. Smith, you have hit the nail on the head with your reply. That's is what I am wondering. The real question is how much cash does it take to get one.    (I curse the day that I sold mine 14 years ago)

----------


## JFDilmando

If you have a lead on a loar F5 for 80 k... please pm me

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

There's six in The Classifieds and one of them is for $75,000.  Maybe it was won in a game of poker?

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/103163#103163

----------


## William Smith

> If you have a lead on a loar F5 for 80 k... please pm me


Sorry my friend, that info I think I'll keep to myself :Wink:  

Gary-There was an F-2 or 4 with L.L. on back side of truss rod cover, don't know if its the real deal from the man or someone else?

----------


## William Smith

> There's six in The Classifieds and one of them is for $75,000.  Maybe it was won in a game of poker?
> 
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/103163#103163


Not that one I'm speaking about, the one I know of is almost all original not a "poker incident" like the one at Carters that should be for sale at about 25G not 75.

----------


## Gary Hedrick

Well sell those other mandolins and get it!!!!  Good for you!!!

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

Truss-rod covers with L.L. on the back could be a lucrative business...

----------


## Jeff Mando

> If you have a lead on a loar F5 for 80 k... please pm me


That requires either a motivated seller or an uniformed seller.  Since the internet there are now NO uninformed sellers, like there once was.  However, people are still motivated from time to time to sell something for less than the "going rate" due to family emergency, job loss, divorce, medical expenses, foreclosure, etc........it does require the buyer to think like a "businessman" and not overpay even though your conscience says it is OK to overpay...........in the "real world" things that are "worth" $175K get sold everyday for $80K and the seller is happy, if not thankful, to get it.  Most of us are sheltered somewhat from these realities, but it is something pawn shops see all the time. (not Loars, hard luck stories, that is....)  I guess I have probably had way too much retail experience......

----------


## Jeff Mando

typo -- should be uninformed in both places, rather than uniformed  :Grin:  unless, we are talking blue jeans -- the "uniform" of the non-conformist.... :Cool:

----------


## William Smith

> Well sell those other mandolins and get it!!!!  Good for you!!!


Trust me Gary if I could I would, Not that I haven't tried selling, not many people buying, or at least buying what I'm selling :Laughing:  I think I'm one of the few that love the F-7's-conversions! Something about em to me..I even lowered my 82 Gil F-5 from 17.5 to 16.5. I think thats fair for a Gil 5 maybe I'm wrong? My luck I'd get the $$$ and then the market would go up on em.
  also someone mentioned uninformed seller, Oh he's informed. Not the most pristine Loars out there but up there and I don't go in for cosmetics. "You should see and hear the beat up old gal I play, If I could figure out how to post a pix on hear I'd do it." should be the sound, thats my top priority, funny, I say that on all my posts :Smile:

----------

Gary Hedrick

----------


## Hendrik Ahrend

Gary-There was an F-2 or 4 with L.L. on back side of truss rod cover, don't know if its the real deal from the man or someone else?[/QUOTE]

That would be Ken Walthams F2, which I had the pleasure of trying out, a real fine one. It sure is nice to think that Loar may have owned it at some point. But I wouldn't consider it a "Loar signed" mandolin.

----------

Gary Hedrick

----------


## Gary Hedrick

> Gary-There was an F-2 or 4 with L.L. on back side of truss rod cover, don't know if its the real deal from the man or someone else?


That would be Ken Walthams F2, which I had the pleasure of trying out, a real fine one. It sure is nice to think that Loar may have owned it at some point. But I wouldn't consider it a "Loar signed" mandolin.[/QUOTE]

That's the story I remember!!  Forgot that it was Ken who came across it....In the world of Gibson in the 20's and especially the 30's odd things abound!!   Why wouldn't Lloyd sign a truss rod cover and say "I have dibs on that one when it is done"?

----------


## Gary Hedrick

> Trust me Gary if I could I would, Not that I haven't tried selling, not many people buying, or at least buying what I'm selling I think I'm one of the few that love the F-7's-conversions! Something about em to me..I even lowered my 82 Gil F-5 from 17.5 to 16.5. I think thats fair for a Gil 5 maybe I'm wrong? My luck I'd get the $$$ and then the market would go up on em.
>   also someone mentioned uninformed seller, Oh he's informed. Not the most pristine Loars out there but up there and I don't go in for cosmetics. "You should see and hear the beat up old gal I play, If I could figure out how to post a pix on hear I'd do it." should be the sound, thats my top priority, funny, I say that on all my posts


You've got it!!  Who cares about pristine on a 90 year old instrument unless you are a "collector"  As long as they are structurally sound, having a good set up so they can be played and sound great, I don't care.   There is a mojo with them. I think it was either Ken Waltham or Tom Isenhour that talks about "the smell of a Loar" .  It exists.  I am the same way with an old Martin. Warhorse guitars have "IT"......that mojo..

----------

Timbofood

----------


## William Smith

> You've got it!!  Who cares about pristine on a 90 year old instrument unless you are a "collector"  As long as they are structurally sound, having a good set up so they can be played and sound great, I don't care.   There is a mojo with them. I think it was either Ken Waltham or Tom Isenhour that talks about "the smell of a Loar" .  It exists.  I am the same way with an old Martin. Warhorse guitars have "IT"......that mojo..


I know, I like really like em played in, Ahhhh I love the smell. Didn't Derrington make a Loar smell spray? Should've bottled it and sold it. I'd hose myself down in it.

----------


## Spruce

> ...Ahhhh I love the smell. Didn't Derrington make a Loar smell spray? Should've bottled it and sold it. I'd hose myself down in it.


A future cologne booth at IBMA........not.   :Wink:

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Hendrik Ahrend

Too bad, no answer to the question, yet (unless we were really talking 80k, which I doubt in the case of Carter or Gruhn).

----------


## Gary Hedrick

I am guessing that they have exchanged hands in the range of 100 to 140K with cash and trade instruments. BUT what do I know? It is a simple matter of no one who is a direct party to these trades will tell us because they want the "established" value to be that much higher amount.  Much like the late Stan Jay did in the 80's and 90's. Price the heck out of it in the advertising and then that price eventually becomes the reality that sticks in everyone's head.

----------

pheffernan

----------


## Jeff Mando

I would say it is a "specialty market" that is controlled by a select few, who can afford to keep the prices artificially high for the benefit of the hobby and also their investment.  This happens in other fields, as well -- fine art, diamonds, Duesenberg autos, Stradivari, even real estate.  On my street alone there are six houses for sale that have been for sale over a year, some over two years, all priced within a few thousand dollars of each other.  At a true auction, they would only bring a 1/3 to half of their asking price, because that is all a dealer (house flipper) would pay as a safe investment to resell--but few are willing to sell that cheap because they have their life savings invested.  In the case of a Loar, it is hard to say what one would bring at true auction, hypothetically speaking, it may bring half or somebody may step up and pay full retail or more -- not that anybody would risk a Loar at a no-reserve auction.  There is also a such thing as a motivated buyer.  As my buddy who owned a vintage guitar shop would say, "They had it priced where I had to buy it!"

----------


## Jeff Mando

> I am guessing that they have exchanged hands in the range of 100 to 140K with cash and trade instruments.


That is a good point about trade.  In the hobby of record collecting, about 25 years ago, a certain 45 "sold" for over $10K, which was a record (pun intended) at that time and the seller (dealer) got a lot of mileage out of it in his advertising, etc.  Turns out nobody handed him a briefcase with $10K in it, he took a used car, records, and some cash as part of the trade..........

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Timbofood

The thing is what they are offered for and what they might really sell for are not always the same. So, the original question will remain unanswered. Unless it becomes a published price.
I'm not sure I'd tell what I paid anyway. For what it's worth, I don't have one, don't bother robbing the joint.

----------


## kudzugypsy

here is my take on this fwiw:
i don't own a Loar (i passed up my shot at one back when they were $20k!) but like most that have been around a few decades have followed the market - i do have investment experience and feel that Loars, as mentioned earlier - are no different than any other "controlled market" - in that you have a small number of people who own and sell Loars that need the appearance of a healthy future appreciation when i don't see one from my vantage.
these prices you see listed are extremely optimistic and more for keeping the market up than actual selling prices - a good many Loar owners who are players bought these back in the 70's-90's when they were expensive but not out of reach for a dedicated buyer. since the early 2000's this has been a speculators market and i remember Loars hitting the market and immediately being sold. there were "standing offers" for $125K from one collector for anything that came his way (i think he accumulated 6 during this time). the entire run up in value was driven, imo, from the easy money coming from the real estate market - people cashing in on home appreciation prices, taking the appreciation in refinancing and playing the market or getting in vintage instruments, along with year over year percentage jumps in prices and people had the easy money to pounce on them. those days are GONE and they are not coming back...$165k is now REAL money, not something you pulled out of your home value. on the other side, people who have that kind of money (unless its from a windfall inheritance or whatever) are not dumb - they don't drop $175k into something that isn't going UP...and the trend is not your friend in Loar values - it will be a LOONNNG time before we see 2008 prices again - i think never, it was an economic fluke. i had more than one dealer say back in the heyday they were going to $350k in a few years and i was very suspicious of that. the claim kept being made about Strad violins but to me its not even a close analogy for many reasons i wont elaborate on...
No you wont see Loars for $20k anytime soon, but i do think they will settle in the $75-100K range with excellent examples going for more, or moving quickly. if the market is HOT and you know you can buy an investment for $150K+ and sell it in 2 years for $250k its a no-brainer...thats what was going on then - you have the opposite now - even a "deal" of $150k only looks that way when looking back to 2008 - if you count inflation and the time cost of money invested in something that actually goes up - you see a different picture. all i see are Loars accumulating with consigned dealers (at a nice % commission charge) - we will only know when some of the big auction houses have some go through and prices are black & white cold cash. also a lot of these bought as alternative 401K retirement investments are going to need to be sold in the near future for cash, not trade.

----------

Bill Cameron, 

DataNick

----------


## Spruce

> ....it will be a LOONNNG time before we see 2008 prices again - i think never, it was an economic fluke.


I think I would take that bet...
And--for the sake of the economy and the country--I hope I'm right...    :Wink:

----------


## kudzugypsy

> I think I would take that bet...
> And--for the sake of the economy and the country--I hope I'm right...



agree on the economy...but i have been hearing this for the last 8 years (which is hardly a blimp of time)...i could agree with the mindset things were so bad in 2008-10 that it was possible to say when the economy recovers then the prices will recover - but that was 8 years and a recovery ago and supply is 'plentiful' yet buyers aren't. 15 Loars for sale is 10% of the known total out there. add to that these are the lowest interest rates in history and people have money sitting in CDs and money markets making less than 1% and they still don't pull out and buy...historically...if you had a near 0% return on your money, you would justify and pull it out and put it somewhere to get _something_...i would rather be playing a Loar for example than get $300 a year in interest @ .25% on $150k. that tells me the market is overvalued - safe cash is king right now.

----------

Gary Hedrick, 

j. condino, 

Spruce

----------


## Jeff Mando

Like I say, you gotta buy right and get your profit on the "front end" by negotiating.  It amazing me that people are so fond of paying retail -- I like a bargain -- I try to NEVER pay retail -- kind of hard to do on utilities, food, and gasoline, but on instruments -- NOT SO HARD -- they are subject to dickering!  I'm not in the market right now, but I know if there are 15 Loars for sale that somebody is motivated to take less.......stands to reason -- too much competition, right now.  Somebody wants to cash out.  Who says you have to buy from a vintage dealer?  If you find out who owns it and deal direct, you have just saved enough to buy a nice used car or boat!  Not hard to find out this info.  I've done A LOT of negotiating in my life and what amazes me is HOW OFTEN a phone car will save you thousands of dollars and tell you EXACTLY where the person is coming from and their hopes for a sale.  A lot of these deals can be cash plus trade, for example.  OR, the seller may need a down payment on a property they are hoping to purchase.  Often they will tell you in so many words exactly what they need.  You have to be attuned to understanding it.  The old phrase "money talks" is still true.  It works on $1000 instruments and $175K instruments.  (hint, I rarely would pay more than $500 for a $1000 instrument, and prefer to pay much less -- you do the math on a Loar.)  Whatever you put into the negotiation as far as time, research, phone calls, offers, etc., will pay off huge in savings.  IT WOULD SURPRISE YOU to know how much negotiation goes on at vintage shops.  Not everyone who comes in is Chris Thile or some rock star with unlimited $$$, most sales are to average people who have always wanted one and figured a way to get it.  So yeah, at $175K it is not an investment that I think will grow rapidly, but if you can buy right, a signed Loar will always be safe money, IMHO.  :Mandosmiley:

----------

Gary Hedrick

----------


## re simmers

The last 8 years, the price of most rare collectables, like good furniture has dropped or stayed level (in the mid-Atlantic area).   I assume most of the price of a Loar is the collectable/investment part.    It will definitely come back, but it won't be soon.   This is a volatile economy, and most people are hesitant to pay top dollar.   I agree there's probably a good bit of dickering on prices for a Loar.

----------


## Timbofood

The real value is ONLY determined when one is bought or sold. Until one sells there is no way to make a blanket "price". What one expects and what is finally paid may be very different numbers.
I knew a guy who had a "Patek Phillippe" wristwatch, stainless steel, no one he knew had ever seen one like it, he felt that it was worth a serious load of money but, until it sells, there is NO way to estimate its value. So there's my view.
I ain't buyin' nor sellin' by the way.

----------


## goaty76

> The real value is ONLY determined when one is bought or sold. Until one sells there is no way to make a blanket "price". What one expects and what is finally paid may be very different numbers.



I own a good number of instruments that really have no current market value. It's not that aren't worth anything but they are so rare there are no trends or past sales to go by. One of them, which is kinda "Loar-ish" if that's a word, is one of only two publicly known examples. George Gruhn has the other in his personal collection hanging outside his office. I'm waiting for the day when Gruhn eventually sells his to see what mine is worth. Till then I'll just go with the guesstimate of what I think the value is. 

Phil

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Timbofood

People used to come in and ask me (in the jewelry business) "Is gold up or down?" My normal answer was "Yep"
You have the right concept as far as I'm concerned, Phil. What one person has may be worth a fortune to him but, as far as "comparable street value"? With nothing to base comparison on its pretty hard to determine values.
I have a "custom" 1919 MB3 but, for reasons discussed on other threads ad nauseum is either worth a fortune (did I say it's a mandolin banjo!) or basically worth boo.

----------


## Jeff Mando

It was mentioned you could "park" your money in a Loar, rather than in some other place -- bank, investment portfolio, ira, etc., since accounts aren't paying much these days and you could have the benefit of owning and playing a Loar around the house.  Again, I think it is safe money to do that, but certainly not an investment that will grow.  And, needless to say, there is risk -- not only of the marketplace, but actual risk of dropping it, theft, etc.  I think the people who benefited from Loar pricing were those who bought 40 years ago and kept it or those who inherited great grampa's Loar and received the benefit of the windfall.  In my opinion, if you are 50-70 years old, there isn't enough time to see Loar prices jump significantly, if you buy in now.  But, certainly a great thing to own, if you don't mind breaking even.  :Cool:

----------

Gary Hedrick

----------


## Northwest Steve

Does anybody have any thoughts on how much the value of the instrument would increase depending on the prior owner? Such as Chris Thiele, John Reichman, David Grisman or the like?

----------


## JeffD

> Does anybody have any thoughts on how much the value of the instrument would increase depending on the prior owner? Such as Chris Thiele, John Reichman, David Grisman or the like?


I guess one way to figure that out is to ask yourself, how much more above reasonable expected value, percentage wise, would you be willing to pay for a mandolin previously owned by one of our heroes. 10, 20, 25% more?

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> Does anybody have any thoughts on how much the value of the instrument would increase depending on the prior owner? Such as Chris Thiele, John Reichman, David Grisman or the like?


My thoughts are that John Reischman's mandolin, should it come up for sale would command a premium price. Not because of who owned it, but because of what it is. Special, even by Loar standards.

----------

DataNick, 

JSanta, 

Timbofood

----------


## PVia

Thile and others have had to do major work to their Loars before they had them playing the way they wanted, i.e., intonation. That would have to be added in to the decision as well. 

I played a Loar recently here in LA, but it was impossible to hear what it would have sounded like with a proper setup, etc...the dealer wouldn't let me adjust a thing (understandably because it was on consignment and he was treating it with kid gloves...) but a little bridge action adjustment and changing the strings would have gone a long way in determining it's potential...they were asking 150k.

I personally believe that the current prices (175k) for most of the instruments out there is ridiculously high, but dealers are willing to sit on these until that ONE buyer comes along who HAS to have it...

I think that Loars realistically should be priced closer to a third of their asking prices...

Almost no one except Thile has purchased a vintage instrument at anywhere near  current asking prices....look at Mike Marshall, Dave Grisman, Tony Rice...alll got their instruments for $600 or so...

Although these fellas are considered the top of the game in the players world, NONE of them could afford today's prices...

Everybody thinks that players like Rice, etc are worth a fortune...just not so.

----------


## Hendrik Ahrend

> ...look at Mike Marshall, Dave Grisman, Tony Rice...alll got their instruments for $600 or so...
> 
> Although these fellas are considered the top of the game in the players world, NONE of them could afford today's prices...
> 
> Everybody thinks that players like Rice, etc are worth a fortune...just not so.


$ 600? Hold your horses! Reischman paid about 8k in the early 80s. Grisman I don't know, but I'm guessing around 20k, big money back then.
I'd pay extra for those big name mandos, mainly because they are among the best instruments (if I had the $$, and they were available).

----------

DataNick

----------


## Gary Hedrick

That figure of $8k would be about right for early '80's. I paid $7.2k in 1984 for mine. (My former Loar that is)

----------


## Steve Ostrander

> A future cologne booth at IBMA........not.


I'm going to market Loar "tone balls" made out of dryer lint  :Smile:   Who wants in?

----------

Timbofood

----------


## JAK

What about Bill Monroe's F5 Gibson Loar that sold for $1.2 million? If Bill hadn't owned it, it would be down in the $175K range today. That Loar definitely increased in price because of who owned it (Mr. Bill).

----------

Jeff Mando

----------


## Jeff Mando

Monroe would be the closest thing "we" have to a Hendrix or Clapton, whose instruments have sold in that price range.  Although, that market was controlled by a single buyer with unlimited funds, buying for museum display (and probably a tax write-off).  Hard to say, what a true value is........... :Wink: 

I'm guessing a Marilyn Monroe owned Loar (if one existed) would go for similar money, but would it be for the "right" reasons?  :Whistling:

----------


## Canoedad

> What about Bill Monroe's F5 Gibson Loar that sold for $1.2 million? If Bill hadn't owned it, it would be down in the $175K range today. That Loar definitely increased in price because of who owned it (Mr. Bill).


Or perhaps if Bill hadn't owned it, its value would be around $35,000 today.  (Wait for it ...)

----------


## f5loar

Loars are like most other "collectibles".  Price is related to condition,condition and condition.  When a Loar has "issues" that top end price starts to go down according to what "issues" it has.  The one for $75K does seem to have a lot of "issues" but I bet it sounds just fine.  The other pricing factor is what the owner has in it and how bad he needs the cash right now.  How low can they go?  Depends on how close their home is to being sold on the court house steps.  There was a time back in 2006 when the price of a Loar was equal to the price of a really nice house.  Have you priced a house for sale lately?  I doubt many of us could sell our homes for the property tax value we pay the taxes on it each year.  And I wouldn't be using the Monroe Loar as a benchmark for "added value" over who owns it now.  There was and there will only be one Bill Monroe in our lifetime.  And after Jan. 21st it's possible the price of a "The Loar" will be going way up!

----------


## f5loar

> Or perhaps if Bill hadn't owned it, its value would be around $35,000 today.  (Wait for it ...)


If Bill hadn't owned that Loar, and it had gone through the same wear and tear, it would have been thrown in a trash can, because I doubt seriously anyone would step up to put it back together after being turned into firewood sticks with a fire poker.

----------


## Jim Garber

> One of them, which is kinda "Loar-ish" if that's a word, is one of only two publicly known examples. George Gruhn has the other in his personal collection hanging outside his office.


Lloyd's personal musical saw?

----------


## goaty76

This one 



Phil

----------


## Jim Garber

> This one 
> 
> 
> 
> Phil


That is so cool. I love the oddballs like that and Lil Pup.

----------


## PVia

> $ 600? Hold your horses! Reischman paid about 8k in the early 80s. Grisman I don't know, but I'm guessing around 20k, big money back then.
> I'd pay extra for those big name mandos, mainly because they are among the best instruments (if I had the $$, and they were available).


Grisman paid $550 for his first Loar, a Feb 18...this was in the 1960s, according to his interview with Chris Thile in Fretboard Journal.

----------


## DataNick

> Grisman paid $550 for his first Loar, a Feb 18...this was in the 1960s, according to his interview with Chris Thile in Fretboard Journal.


And Ricky Skaggs paid $2500 for his in 1975.
Prices have exponentially increased, therefore the Reischman figure seems perfectly reasonable.

----------


## Gary Hedrick

Indeed....I had a chance to buy one in 1970 for $1100.....but as a poor college student didn't have the cash.

----------

DataNick

----------


## Jeff Mando

> Indeed....I had a chance to buy one in 1970 for $1100.....but as a poor college student didn't have the cash.


To put it into perspective, many of us drove $50 used cars back then -- yep, $50 bought a running car....  :Smile: 

coming up with $1100 would have been impossible, for me, as well.  :Frown:

----------

DataNick, 

Gary Hedrick

----------


## Gary Hedrick

Indeed.....big time engineer in 1973 as a new graduate making all of $9250/ yr.....whew ...the big time.....

I really had scrape up the bucks to buy a Loar in 1983 for $7250......my wife took a lot of coaxing to get that done!!

----------

DataNick

----------


## DataNick

> ......my wife took a lot of coaxing to get that done!!



At least (I hope) she didn't make you sell it to buy a new washer & dryer; that's how Ricky got his. The guy didn't want to sell at the last minute, but his daughter pulled on his coat and reminded him that he'd promised "Mama" to sell that ole mandolin to buy her a new washer and dryer,....brother!

----------


## Gary Hedrick

Naw....my sale was college and 2 surgeries.....

----------

DataNick

----------


## f5loar

> And Ricky Skaggs paid $2500 for his in 1975.
> Prices have exponentially increased, therefore the Reischman figure seems perfectly reasonable.


The Grisman 1st Loar and the Skaggs 1st Loar had "issues" hence the cheap price.

----------

DataNick

----------


## Bob A

There were Loars purportedly available in the early 70s for about 5K; it was all I could do to get my F4 at the time for a grand.

----------


## Loudloar

I know an artist who purchased a Loar in 1966 for $750. And it was a great instrument; not a thing wrong with it. That was the going rate for that day. About 1977-78 another was purchased for $4,500 and one for $7,000. One was very nice the other was mint. Again, that was pretty representative of prices then. The price differences had more to do with different private party sellers than condition of the instruments. In all cases it was a lot of money.

Steve

----------


## fscotte

I think the $75k valuation like the pokered one currently at Carter's is the realistic cash value of the non-pokered Loars.  

Just think, that Loar is $75k.  Who cares if it needed some repairs.  You could make an offer of $40k and probably own it.  No need to play it.  Take the strings off, put in case, vault it.

Seriously, I think the damaged Loars are the way to go.  You have a real Loar.  With real lasting value.  One of a kind.  Consider Monroe's Loar.  Likely the most valued Loar in existence.  Yet, probably the worst damaged mandolin you'd ever see.  It's value simply because it was played by Monroe.  But its still just a Loar.  No more worth than that $75k Loar at Carter's.  And I may say, that mando sounds really nice.

----------

DataNick

----------


## DataNick

> ...You could make an offer of $40k and probably own it...


I think you're on to something there; imagine if you walked into Carter's with $40K cash in a briefcase, you'd probably walk out with it!

Repair it to get it optimally playable/set-up and badda-bing; you've got a Loar for the price of a 30s Fern.

Oh well a guy can dream...LOL!

----------


## Jeff Mando

My take is that "they" are all consignments.  Most stores don't want the "wiggle room" to come out of their end.  If they have a serious buyer, they might give the owner a call and see if they want to lower it from their end.  I've never handled any sales that large -- but, I'm guessing it opens up a can of worms, as far as IRS, etc., is concerned -- I know Paypal sends me a Form 1099 for my eBay sales every year.....hmmm, I bought it for $650 in 1965 and sold it for $175K, so my "profit" is..........not sure how that works?  :Disbelief:

----------

DataNick, 

Timbofood

----------


## Timbofood

So, how many are buying for Christmas? I will be happy to PM my address, it would be lovely to find under the tree! Thanks!!!

----------

DataNick

----------


## woodwizard

> A future cologne booth at IBMA........not.


I swear when I walked into and through the foyer at Gruhn's I could smell vintage Gibson strongly!

----------


## woodwizard

My last recent purchase this year a 1922 F2... Very Sweet! Everyone that has something in the Loar era would like to think he had a hand in on yours  :Smile:  right?

----------


## Jim Garber

> My last recent purchase this year a 1922 F2... Very Sweet! Everyone that has something in the Loar era would like to think he had a hand in on yours  right?


Hey Mike: Both of those F2's look amazing.  :Smile:

----------

woodwizard

----------


## Stephen Perry

This thread has me wondering about the "real" value of anything!   I see no intrinsic value in objects at all, only the value we assign individually (a personal value), and the value others agree on.  Since I'm in part in the business of disagreement (law), I have a good deal of cynicism in looking at values.  Just look at valuing a business!  How many different ways can you value it? Lots!

The Internet has been both a leveler and an inflation device for "values."   

Regardless, just as with a car, the best deal usually happens after one walks in with a brown sack full of cash, and is later chased down the street by a sales manager attempting to keep one from walking away!   This really works with very expensive things and briefcases full of big bills.  Sellers loose objectivity rapidly (I still have my way too cheaply sold 1991 Ranger - should have kept the paper bag and framed it!)

----------

fernmando, 

Timbofood

----------


## woodwizard

> Hey Mike: Both of those F2's look amazing.


Well thank ya Jim. They are twin sisters  :Smile:  I was trying to show ones behind but made a opps my bad

----------


## jim simpson

I believe the current Vintage Guitar magazine price guide section lists $120,000 - $180,000 for a 1924 Loar .

----------


## Hendrik Ahrend

"A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing." (Oscar Wilde) Now, what's the matter here?

----------


## barry

A quick internet search shows 16 Loars for sale between just 5 well-known dealers.  I'm sure there are more on the market outside of those.  A good many of the ones for sale have been listed for a considerable time.  It's hard to say what the current market price would be.  But logic would dictate, that the actual transaction numbers would be quite a bit below the listed asking prices.

----------


## shylock3

> A quick internet search shows 16 Loars for sale between just 5 well-known dealers.  I'm sure there are more on the market outside of those.  A good many of the ones for sale have been listed for a considerable time.  It's hard to say what the current market price would be.  But logic would dictate, that the actual transaction numbers would be quite a bit below the listed asking prices.


    I probably bought the Skaggs Loar your referring to, not sure exactly when I bought it but I paid 32k for it. It's listed in the Journal with a crack under the pickguard. It's there but hardly noticible. My last purchase was a Loar from a well known picker for 125, nice mandolin with no issues. That was within the last 2 months. The value is what your willing to pay and what the seller is willing to take. I guess I could have donated the money to the outgoing political party, to help them get back on their feet. HUM :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

----------

DataNick, 

Gary Hedrick

----------


## barry

> I probably bought the Skaggs Loar your referring to, not sure exactly when I bought it but I paid 32k for it. It's listed in the Journal with a crack under the pickguard. It's there but hardly noticible. My last purchase was a Loar from a well known picker for 125, nice mandolin with no issues. That was within the last 2 months. The value is what your willing to pay and what the seller is willing to take. I guess I could have donated the money to the outgoing political party, to help them get back on their feet. HUM


Great info.  I would say that answers the question.  The current "mark to market" pricing for a nice, no-issues Loar, is currently around 125,000. 
Thank you.

----------


## JFDilmando

I know of three that have sold in the last two years for 140-170 k

----------

Gary Hedrick

----------


## barry

Sounds reasonable.  The prices of vintage Martin guitars has pulled back over the last couple of years too.

----------


## woodwizard

The question is how long does one want to hold position of a gold mine. It's a stock market thing  "up & down".  Not knowing

----------


## Jeff Mando

Real value, as a player, is priceless.....something you can enjoy every time you pick it up.

As an "investment", not so much.  It has peaked and even fallen quite a bit.  The people who "made money" on a Loar inherited it from great grandpa or bought in the 60's or 70's and hung onto it for 40+ years -- you'll make money.  Those who bought it at $175K and up -- you'll probably take a hit if you want to unload it.  OTOH, bought for the "right" price, not a bad place to park your money, IMHO, and fun, too.  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## barry

The original poster's question was what the true, current-day transaction prices are for Loar mandolins.  Shylock3 had a very honest and accurate answer.  Within the last 2 months, a "no-issues" instrument changed hands for 125,000.
That's the most recent transaction price I have seen.  Obviously, the more transactions, the more accurate and efficient the market price would be.  However, these are rare collectibles with a thin market.

----------

DataNick, 

Gary Hedrick

----------


## mandroid

if your mandolin that cost more than my house, makes you enough money, 
 to buy 2 houses,  then it may be worth it..
 :Popcorn:

----------


## Rich Michaud

I want to put my toe in the water here. First, hello to Gary who knows me from prior mando transactions. I understand the high costs of the Loars, that there is a wide variety in condition and sound, and s Barry said, the market is thin. My firm belief is that the high end market is declining or at best stagnant. It takes a lot of desire and financial resources to pay six-figure money for these items that come with sale tax requirements, annual insurance costs, and potential repairs and risk of damage and loss. In contrast, many investments will currently yield a 3-5% return without the headaches. That being said, I am dead serious about being in the market to buy one in good condition with a sound/tone that I like. I am aware of the Loars on the market by dealers mostly priced at 165,000 to $175,000 and will likely end up buying from a dealer that I have in mind.  However, if anyone out there knows of a Loar owner who wishes to avoid a consignment fee to a dealer and would like to part with a Loar to a serious buyer, please let me know. 
Rich Michaud

----------

DataNick, 

Dave Reiner, 

Gary Hedrick

----------


## AlanN

> The people who "made money" on a Loar inherited it from great grandpa or bought in the 60's or 70's and hung onto it for 40+ years


Untrue statement, or at least incomplete, to imply that these folks are the only ones who have seen a profit on a sale. There have been many buyers/sellers in the last 15-20 years who have scored a windfall. I wish people would know a bit more of what they speak before posting.

----------

Gary Hedrick

----------


## JAK

Just like other brands of mandos, there are Gibson Loars and there are Gibson Loars, with a variety of sight and sound. Wonder what John Reischman's Loar would go for today if he decided to sell it (which I don't think he will, but you never know, what with unknown factors and random events occurring all the time)???

----------


## Don Grieser

There's 5 for sale at Carter's and another 5 at Gruhn's. Plus a Loar mandola at Carter's. Draw your own conclusions.

----------


## DataNick

Gruhn's is _listing_ this VG+  1924 Gibson F5 Loar for $135K...that $120K price that the guy mentioned earlier in the thread no doubt is spot on.



$100K in cash, if it's possible to accumulate that much in one sitting, would probably walk you out the door with it.

----------


## Hendrik Ahrend

That one has been around for a while, at Retrofret, at Carter and now at Gruhn's. Not sure what the story is. Maybe the Virzi - in this case - affects the sound negatively, or it just doesn't sound good enough for most potential Loar buyers.

----------

DataNick

----------


## JFDilmando

well, as far as current pricing, I have heard of one selling very recently for about 170, and I have one that someone could probably pry out of my hands for around that price... but really ?  Why not just keep enjoying playing them.  So from a "seller's" standpoint, the going value would be right around the 160-180 range from my perspective... which is pretty spot on with where the "dealers" are trying to hold the line currently.  Actually, I think that the "average" Loar might come down a bit more, as the one or the other that I think I would part with are top of the line Loars, and have been thought of as that by some of the top dogs... of course, everyone who has a Loar probably thinks its a top of the line Loar !!!

----------

Darryl Wolfe

----------


## Jeff Mando

> There's 5 for sale at Carter's and another 5 at Gruhn's. Plus a Loar mandola at Carter's. Draw your own conclusions.


Sounds like if someone was ready to buy, you'd never have another chance to find 10 for sale at the same time, let alone in the same town.  Sure would be a fun afternoon comparing them.  But, yes, seems like a buyer's market to me.

----------


## Jim Garber

> That one has been around for a while, at Retrofret, at Carter and now at Gruhn's. Not sure what the story is. Maybe the Virzi - in this case - affects the sound negatively, or it just doesn't sound good enough for most potential Loar buyers.


I liked that one a lot when it was at RetroFret. I would guess that the micro-market for Loar F-5 buyers may be pretty saturated unless someone wins a MacArthur grant.  :Smile:

----------

Charlieshafer, 

DataNick, 

Hendrik Ahrend

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

This entire subject is just part of shifting priorities, the influence of the internet, and many other factors.

At one point great Loars were bringing $225K and $250k.  But this was the same period of time that my house was worth $100K more than it is now.  

Back in the day, Loar sales were by word of mouth, letters and phone calls that start out with..."I understand you might have a Loar you are thinking about selling".  Those of us that bought then are sitting pretty good regardless of where the price settles at.

For many, many years, the price of a Loar mimicked the price of a decent new car or a very nice used one.  Do that math now and see what the "real" value of a Loar is.  The math on car to house value at that time was about 8-10x car vs. house and a house was accepted to be about a years annual pay.  The annual pay thing now is more like 3-4 years, but the car to house ratio remains the same.

With that said, Loars became about 2x over this formula in the mid to late '90's and about 4x over the formula at their price peak.

This biggest problem is that baby boomers and the following generation finally had enough money to buy one..which blew the roof off the prices.   Our newer generations are enamored in the modern mandolins, which they should be.  There was not the current quality of mandolins available then.  And the folks like me that grew up on Bill Monroe are past our buying prime.

The market is shifting and adjusting as it always has

The real price for a Loar now is "what you can get", not necessarily a function of what you paid for it.

But, the internet has expanded the Lore of the Loar along with making all the one for sale instantly visible. So I think the do command a premium over the old formula, just like a Herringbone, Les Paul and such do.  But I think we are seeing problems with those prices too in the same manner

----------

Charlieshafer, 

Clement Barrera-Ng, 

DataNick, 

f5joe, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Gary Hedrick, 

Glassweb, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

JSanta, 

Links, 

Spruce

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Fact check for my post

1972  Loar $2000.......1972 Ford Maverick $2000....entry level new home $20,000 (when neither my Dad or I could afford a Loar
1976  Loar $5000.......1976 Olds Cutlass supreme $5500.....nice new home $55,000 (when I bought my first Loar
1982 Loar $8000........1982 Honda Accord $9000...............new homes, around $85,000  (when I bought a Loar)

2008 Loar $225,000......    2008 Decent new car $15,000-Loaded $40,000...............new entry level home $150,000

Today Loar ?  ........             2017 decent new car $25,000  Loaded nice car $40,000-80,000 ..............new entry level home $160-230,000

Note..all home prices are in similar southern areas with similar cost of livings

Another data point is the price of a high quality new F style mandolin from a custom builder.  On the earlier entries that number is about 1/4 to 1/3 the price of a Loar

Todays's price is about $20,000ish for a Gil or Dude...Ha!!!!  Bingo

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

Charlieshafer, 

DataNick, 

f5joe, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Gary Hedrick, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Timbofood

----------


## Jeff Mando

> This biggest problem is that baby boomers and the following generation finally had enough money to buy one..which blew the roof off the prices.


Great analysis, Darryl.  I agree and it is complicated.  If the economy, in general, hadn't tanked in 2008 it would have been interesting to see where prices might have gone.  I think I was at the exact vintage guitar show in Arlington, Texas when buyers stopped buying -- where before money had  flowed like water, so to speak.  It was scary to witness.  I know quite a few dealers and collectors who bought in when prices were high and now own several holy grail instruments that are now worth $50K less than they paid.  Makes sense, of course, but I grew up thinking vintage instruments were a recession proof investment and for 30+ years they were.  Kinda sad.

I guess another way to look at it is to say an instrument that once brought $250K can be bought today for $175K, which should be some comfort to a buyer.  Still sounds like a lot to the average guy like me.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

> .  I know quite a few dealers and collectors who bought in when prices were high and now own several holy grail instruments that are now worth $50K less than they paid.  Makes sense, of course, but I grew up thinking vintage instruments were a recession proof investment and for 30+ years they were.  Kinda sad.
> 
> I guess another way to look at it is to say an instrument that once brought $250K can be bought today for $175K, which should be some comfort to a buyer.  Still sounds like a lot to the average guy like me.


Agree...I think these are some of the Loars for sale....and I never thought I would see instruments decline.  I hold several instruments that I overpaid for.  Luckily for me they are in the $3000-$6000 range and traded into

----------


## Willie Poole

I know there are some reasons for people wanting to own a vintage instrument but as for me if I find a mandolin that has a sound that I like and plays comfortable that's what I want and buy...I do not speculate on an instrument going up in value because I don`t know what makes that happen....I see some guitars made in 1971 that bring a high price in one city and a guitar of the same make and year in another city goes for a lot less, that I don`t understand either...I am not a collector so I guess that's why I don`t understand all of this about the value of a 1924 Gibson mandolin selling for such a high price...Thanks Mr. Monroe....

    Willie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Let me add one other set of facts that mesh with my posts....

My Parents were not rich, and I have never been real well off so to speak.  I attained upper middle class status and after I left home, I started out middle class and reached well into the upper range of middle class by the age of 40 or so.  I was buying cars, raising a family and paying all the usual mortgages and such  I am 64 years old

Now, during my entire relationship with this Loar mandolin thing, a middle class person who was not strapped in debt could swing a Loar if he put his mind to it.  It was akin to buying a new car that you did not need, and parking it in a garage.  If you rally wanted the Loar, and were willing to sacrifice a few things for a while it was fully attainable

In both cases where I bought a Loar in my early years, I sold off a non-daily driver car or some other asset, or took out a loan on a paid for car to come up with the majority of the money, but doable.  Very doable then adding in things like selling 2-3 other instruments and such.  It was a strain and a sacrifice, but doable with some effort

After about 1996, with Loars at $40,000...this became a pipe dream for me and most others in my "class", and has only become worse since

So, in essence, one has had to have some serious disposable income to buy a Loar since 1996

----------

Charlieshafer, 

DataNick, 

Gary Hedrick, 

JSanta

----------


## DataNick

> ...For many, many years, the price of a Loar mimicked the price of a decent new car or a very nice used one.  Do that math now and see what the "real" value of a Loar is.  The math on car to house value at that time was about 8-10x car vs. house and a house was accepted to be about a years annual pay.  The annual pay thing now is more like 3-4 years, but the car to house ratio remains the same....


Thanks Darryl!

Being a Data Analyst I can't resist an attempt at a forecast projection..by the above formula and what I would call a "decent" new car, I'd say right around $30K or what most listings of vintage 1930s F5 Gibsons seem to be at.

----------


## Gary Hedrick

Well there you are......my life's story via Darryl....

----------

Darryl Wolfe

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

I'll buy the whole formula except the implied equal comparison of a Maverick to Cutlass Supreme.

----------


## f5joe

Gimme the Cutlass ANY day!

----------

FLATROCK HILL, 

Timbofood

----------


## mtucker

I think the market is shrinking even more these days than we realize ... x-gens and millennial's simply aren't making the kind of money that we boomers made 20 years ago, therefore in total there isn't a wave of younger people with that kind of disposable income. Credit card debt continues to pile up and they aren't saving. The vintage and collector markets are as soft as they have ever been. 

Not to politicize this but when we were growing up we had a very healthy middle class - today not so much...right, wrong or indifferent, we've shipped all of our jobs off shore in effort to compete in a world-wide economy.

----------

j. condino

----------


## JSanta

> I think the market is shrinking even more these days than we realize ... x-gens and millennial's simply aren't making the kind of money that we boomers made 20 years ago, therefore in total there isn't a wave of younger people with that kind of disposable income. Credit card debt continues to pile up and they aren't saving. The vintage and collector markets are as soft as they have ever been. 
> 
> Not to politicize this but when we were growing up we had a very healthy middle class - today not so much...right, wrong or indifferent, we've shipped all of our jobs off shore in effort to compete in a world-wide economy.


I'm a millennial (perhaps the tail end of it being 31), but the other real issue for my age group has been college debt greatly decreasing my ability to purchase much of anything.  My wife has a Master's in Nursing and I'm finishing up a Doctorate.  Combined we are close to $200k in student loan debt.  We are fortunate to make really good money, but the reality is making any "big" purchases that are not related to our home or a vehicle is not plausible.  Buying an instrument of any value takes a great deal of planning and thought unless we want to go into debt.  Whether or not people in my age group want to buy anything I think is secondary to the fact that our student debt load has massively surpassed anything experienced by the boomer generation.

I of course realize that it was our choice to go to college and get advanced degrees, but in this market, we've had to be competitive both with skills and education.  There wasn't really any other option for us.  

TL:DR - I could buy a Loar in 10 years if I didn't have student debt  :Smile: 

What I don't know is whether or not the prices will trend down because of the lack of buying power for many within my age group.  I wonder what the trend has been for 1959 LPs...?

----------

Charlieshafer, 

Gary Hedrick, 

j. condino, 

mtucker

----------


## Spruce

> I wonder what the trend has been for 1959 LPs...?


Good question...
I haven't been following the 'Burst scene for quite some time now...
Funny that it stalled at right about the same price point as a Loar, no?
And yes, I'd rather have the Loar...    :Wink:

----------


## Jim Hilburn

A lot of similarity in the stories of the F5 and the Les Paul sunburst. If you think of the goldtops as being like the oval mandolins then both the F5 and LP were made for 3 years before being discontinued for lack of sales. In both cases they were both became very popular in musical styles they weren't necessarily designed for and due to scarcity became very valuable.

----------


## Don Grieser

There's a 57 Burst LP at Carters for $69K and a 50's gold top for $35K.

----------


## Spruce

> A lot of similarity in the stories of the F5 and the Les Paul sunburst. If you think of the goldtops as being like the oval mandolins then both the F5 and LP were made for 3 years before being discontinued for lack of sales. In both cases they were both became very popular in musical styles they weren't necessarily designed for and due to scarcity became very valuable.


Also similar, in that the advent of the 'net had a _lot_ to do with their perceived valuations...

----------


## Jim Hilburn

There were no 57 bursts so that guitar is a refin. The one listed as " the first burst" was listed for $625k and is sold.

----------

j. condino

----------


## Jeff Mando

I also noted that Carter's Vintage handled the sale of "the first burst" and "the first Loar" both within months of each other.......certainly an interesting coincidence in our tiny collector subset........

Record collectors like to use the word "scarce" sparingly to describe a record that rarely surfaces, rather than the more common "rare".  There are records that have been on collectors "want lists" for 25 years with none having come up for sale!  (Everything seems to be "rare" these days, if you believe the internet.)

It does show the leveling power of the internet.  Price has brought these instruments "out of the woodwork", so to speak.  Loars and Bursts were once scarce.  If we can find 10 of one item for sale on any given day, it would be hard to call it scarce, IMHO.  But, still expensive.  Or to twist an old expression, "these are common at $175K!"

----------


## Charlieshafer

JSanta makes an excellent point about student debt. But there's something even greater at work here than income or disposable cash. While millennial may be the target demographic that's missing in instrument purchases, it extends a bit up the age ladder. What's more at work is a lessened desire to own stuff. Real estate agents in our area tell me that millennial (we'll just use that as a lose definition of age bracket) aren;t looking for the bigger house on a large lot. Something down close to town and smaller is more what they want. They don't really seem to care if they even own it.

Extend this to instruments, and by and large, the name is less critical. I see this all the time with the younger musicians who come through the concert series. The upper end is at the Red Diamond range, but the greatest concentration are those that sell for about 3-6k. They're aware of the Loar mystique, but have virtually no interest in owning one. They're too happy touring around, playing wherever possible, and not having to worry about "stuff" getting damaged. This extends to guitars, violins, basses, the works. It's not that they don't want to worry about damaging a "fine" instrument, they just have no interest in owning one. If the price of a Loar came down to 40-50k, some might bite, but where they are now, you might as well try talking them into having a Ferrari as a touring van. 

I know someone will come up with an exception or two, but a handful doesn't make a market sustainable.

There may be a sale or two in the future that keeps the price somewhere around the 100k mark, but as an investment, forget it, not enough buyers.

----------

Darryl Wolfe, 

Folkmusician.com, 

j. condino, 

JSanta, 

mtucker

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

> I'll buy the whole formula except the implied equal comparison of a Maverick to Cutlass Supreme.


I actually meant to clarify that.....much of what I posted was numbers from personal experience around those dates and again are ball park numbers...a $2000 Maverick was actually 1970 and my Cutlass was actually a '75 I bought in late '74...I did buy a new loaded Vega GT for $3175 in '73..all relative

My Dad tried to buy a Loar from Benny Cain in 1968.  Dad said he could buy a nice nearly new Cadillac for that.  Obviously, we did not leave with a Loar

----------

Charlieshafer, 

DataNick, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Timbofood

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

> by and large, the name is less critical. I see this all the time with the younger musicians who come through the concert series. The upper end is at the Red Diamond range, but the greatest concentration are those that sell for about 3-6k. They're aware of the Loar mystique, but have virtually no interest in owning one. They're too happy touring around, playing wherever possible, and not having to worry about "stuff" getting damaged. There may be a sale or two in the future that keeps the price somewhere around the 100k mark, but as an investment, forget it, not enough buyers.


Agree 100-%  In a sense, If you did not grow up with Monroe and Flatt and Scruggs, there is no longer a built in desire to have a Loar or a Flathead Mastertone

Thile is probably the sole young example of a Loar player....but his ear and talent is the exception....It certainly appears that the more of us that pass on..the more will be for sale and the prices surely will adjust

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

Charlieshafer, 

DataNick, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

j. condino, 

Timbofood

----------


## Timbofood

I really have to meet you Darryl! An afternoon, and asking instruments with you would be a ball, throw Tom in the mix (sorry bad pun) and I'd be mandolin stupid for days.

----------

Darryl Wolfe, 

DataNick

----------


## JAK

If memory serves, when Thile bought his Gibson Loar the price was around $250K, which is substantially higher than what you can get one for today?

----------


## Charlieshafer

> If memory serves, when Thile bought his Gibson Loar the price was around $250K, which is substantially higher than what you can get one for today?


Just a very quick look at Carter's Vintage Guitar site, first page, shows three at $175,000, one at $180,000, and a previously damaged and repaired one for $75,000. 

Gruhn's has three at $165,000, 2 at $135,000 and one at $90,000. 

That's a 2 minute internet search. That's a lot of competition, and no one rushing to buy.

----------


## Oliver A.

It certainly has been interesting to watch the prices of Loar F5s over my adult lifetime. I remember a time as a lower to mid, middle class earner that I could have purchased a Loar. It would have meant some sacrifices but I could have done it and I did seriously contemplate it in the 80s when I had an opportunity to get a Loar for a price that was a little below perceived market value. I myself never considered vintage instruments or any other instruments to be recession proof though. They are a luxury after all and I guess that was the biggest reason that I never pulled the trigger.  I also recall thinking that when the Loars first hit $10,000 that it was crazy and the price is going to crash but they went on to climb to 20 times that.
I don't think that anyone can answer the question of what is the "real" value of a Loar except to say that it is at the intersection of a buyer's willingness to pay and a seller's willingness to sell. Few people would wish to sell their Loar for less than what they paid for it unless they are highly motivated (financial difficulty) so they may like to cash out but won't unless the price is right for them. Others may want to cash out for retirement and bought their Loars years ago so may be willing to sell for less than the average asking price.
I have a similar situation going on right now with a vintage motorcycle that I have been trying to sell for over a year. I have a value in my mind that I think it is worth but so far, buyers have a different idea. I am not desperate to sell so I have declined offers. So what is the "real" value of my bike? We won't know until one side gives in.
The fetching price of a Loar is dependent on an almost infinite number of variables. (the proverbial butterfly flaps it's wings) One or more of the younger, influential players could acquire a Loar through some fortuitous circumstances. One or more of the older influential players could trade in their Loars for other makes and of course, there is always the economy. Maybe the swamp will be drained and America will be great again or maybe not. It would seem to me that at this particular time there is downward pressure on Loar prices but hey, I've never been right before.

----------


## Br1ck

How many professional musicians besides Thile are earning the kind of money it takes to buy a Loar? At that level it becomes a business deduction. I'm curious, half a dozen? That leaves collectors including big name entertainers that don't necessarily play mandolin primarily, and then upper end income folks with huge disposable incomes.

I know people who have their retirement savings in vintage instruments and I would not want to be them as all the collectors' widows start dumping those instruments. What is an Epiphone Casino worth to a forty year old compared to a geezer who grew up with the Beatles?

I could see Loars being bought by patrons and lent to promising young musicians like Strads in the classical violin world.

----------


## Spruce

> Few people would wish to sell their Loar for less than what they paid for it unless they are highly motivated (financial difficulty) so they may like to cash out but won't unless the price is right for them.


There _have_ been some baths taken in the past 10 years in the world of Loars...
One Loar I'm _very_ familiar with comes to mind...

----------

Oliver A., 

Timbofood

----------


## JAK

Then there is the psychological factor that relates to who owns the Loar that may come up for sale. I'm thinking that if and when John Reischman (or Mike Marshall or Thile or Ricky) decides to sell his, the price may well be above the current prices of the current Loars that are now on the market.

----------


## JSanta

> Then there is the psychological factor that relates to who owns the Loar that may come up for sale. I'm thinking that if and when John Reischman (or Mike Marshall or Thile or Ricky) decides to sell his, the price may well be above the current prices of the current Loars that are now on the market.


This I completely agree with.  You see this with other collectibles as well though.  If a seller can tie some historical significance to the object, the value generally is higher than the same object without the famous roots.  

When they sold Gary Moore's 1959 LP he got from Peter Green, it obviously went for huge money.  Names mean a lot to collectors.

----------


## Spruce

> When they sold Gary Moore's 1959 LP he got from Peter Green, it obviously went for huge money.  Names mean a lot to collectors.


Well, the _sound_ had a lot to do with the value of that instrument...
That out-of-phase brown-sound gooey-ness is hard to beat...

Same same with certain Loars...

----------


## JeffD

I think the mandolin market, and especially the market for a particular collectable historically significant kind of mandolin - is so individual and so small that generalizations likely don't work.

I don't think we can, with any certainty, discern the state of the economy in general by the prices of specific mandolins, or even the buying patterns mandolins, there is so much other stuff that makes more specific differences.

And I don't think we can go the other way, and take the general economy (or what we think the general economy is), and predict the buying patterns and prices of specific mandolins.

Thinking about the significance of Bill Monroe among mandolin players seems like it would be fruitful, but I haven't noticed that Bill has become less significant among mandolin players. (Non mandolin players sure, but they are not participating in the markets of interest anyway.)

Perhaps the generally availability of excellent new mandolins, arguably as good as a 23 Gibson F5, for a fifth of the price, has made folks ask themselves the actual value of the signature and legacy, or do they just want to get on to pickin. Bringing the demand down a peg or two.

I don't know. I am skeptical, however, of any narrow single cause answer, and I see nothing to justify any certainty in any answer.

----------


## Jim Hilburn

Vintage Guitar magazine has a section that lists values of vintage instruments based on current sales and information from some of the top dealers. The Feb. issue has a 1924 F5 listed with a range from low to high of $120k to $180K.

----------


## Jeff Mando

> Vintage Guitar magazine has a section that lists values of vintage instruments based on current sales and information from some of the top dealers. The Feb. issue has a 1924 F5 listed with a range from low to high of $120k to $180K.


That seems to be in agreement with what Gruhn and Carter are asking, but I would say even at that, the market is being "kept" artificially high -- for whatever reason.  I guess there is a parallel in the housing market -- there are five houses on my street that have all been on the market for over a year, one has been over two years -- and I'm thinking if they were put for sale at absolute auction most would have difficulty reaching half of the asking price.....

----------

JSanta

----------


## Rich Michaud

I have followed this thread with great interest. As I said in an earlier post, I am interested in buying a Loar and have been gathering information on available Loars, prices, and tax consequences. It is somewhat like buying a house in an upscale neighborhood in a declining market. The first proposition at issue for me is whether there is  a market price and if so, is it trending up or down?
My limited research found at least 15 Loars for sale ranging from $75,000 to $180,000. One has been for sale for 3 1/2 years by a retailer. One had a retail price of $165,000 that was recently reduced to $135,000. Carter's recently reduced the list price for one of its Loars from $175,000 to $160,000. The instruments seem to sit for long periods of time and therefore are not very liquid without a reduced sale price. Private sales are less for obvious reasons. From a consumer point of view, it appears doubtful that a purchase of a Loar would be an investment that would allow for a profitable resale or even a return of the payment in addition to the carry costs (insurance repairs and the like) and possible consignment fee and taxes. When I look around to see who else would purchase a Loar if I had to sell it-I do not see many takers given the price range and the worry of a declining market. Moreover, if one has to sell, the competition of 10-15 other similarly prices Loars makes it difficult to sell given the other options. I have concluded that buying a Loar as an investment is a bad idea (unless the purchase price was very low). 

The next important question for me, is the instrument that intrinsically special? I have spent years trying different mandolins and am amazed at the current mandolin craftsmen (and women) who make great instruments. The most recent Dudenbostel F5  that I have is truly amazing among others. The prices for great mandolins pale in contrast to Loar prices.  Even assuming the Holy Grail sound of a Loar (if it exists), how much better to the human ear (and for that matter to an older adult's ear) can a Loar be? To date, I do not have a satisfactory answer to this without continuing my quest by playing as many Loars as I can get my hands on.

Despite the risks of a down market and other adverse factors, there is the appeal of playing, hearing, touching and smelling a great sounding Loar. I admit that the mystique of the Loar remains part of my mando psyche and drives me forward on my quest for the Holy Grail...or one of the Holy Grails..(I just looked up Holy Grail-"a vessel, dish or stone with miraculous powers that provide happiness, eternal youth or sustenance in infinite abundance".) I'll take the Loar with the happiness, eternal youth and food for the soul. 

Rich

----------

Darryl Wolfe, 

Dave Reiner

----------


## Spruce

> I have concluded that buying a Loar as an investment is a bad idea...


I respectfully disagree, but I really don't have anything to back it up.
It's just a hunch...
Let's look back on this thread in 10 years, and see who got lucky...   :Wink: 




> The next important question for me, is the instrument that intrinsically special? I have spent years trying different mandolins and am amazed at the current mandolin craftsmen (and women) who make great instruments. The most recent Dudenbostel F5  that I have is truly amazing among others. The prices for great mandolins pale in contrast to Loar prices.  Even assuming the Holy Grail sound of a Loar (if it exists), how much better to the human ear (and for that matter to an older adult's ear) can a Loar be? To date, I do not have a satisfactory answer to this without continuing my quest by playing as many Loars as I can get my hands on.


Ya know, it's _amazing_ how craftsmen have been able to duplicate--and often surpass--the vintage holy grail instruments that are supposedly unique...
Strads, iconic amplifiers, 'Bursts, Neumann U47s, Neve pre-amps, Selmer-Maccaferris, and yes, Loars...
I'd take my '59 Les Paul copy over _any_ 'Burst I've ever played, if money were no object...
And owning any of the above can be a real PITA--worrying _all the time_ about damage, repairs, etc.

That being said, there's obviously something very special about owning one of these puppies, so people pay very dearly to do so...

----------


## Jeff Mando

We are confusing "investment" with "having a cool thing to own" -- a signed Loar would definitely be the latter.  $175K in the bank in a crummy 4.1% 12 month CD would yield $7175 annually in interest income.  The Loar will not do that, you will probably lose money if you buy at $175K.  So, are you ready?.......owning one costs you $7175 a year to enjoy having. (assuming you have the disposable income to buy one)  Some people can afford this expenditure with no affect on their lifestyle.  A professional musician can write this off on their taxes......

----------

Charlieshafer, 

Jess L., 

Spruce, 

Timbofood

----------


## JFDilmando

It's all a matter of which Loar you can buy, what that Loar sounds like to those whom you trust, and you, more than anyone, and what you are required to shell out to obtain that particular Loar.  That becomes the standard by which you consider it "worth to you".  Whether that will be a good investment or not, can be determined by monetary measures, or by measures of pride of ownership, or bragging rights, or the sense you have when you sit down to play it, either night after night, or on those special occasions that mean a lot to you.... $$, francs, pound value is but one measure.... but folks like to simplify it in their minds so... have at it.   Ultimately, when you pass it onto another, you can take stock, with the knowledge of what you "paid" for it, and try and come to grips with what you recieved from it over the years of enjoyment you received in all the measures you might think, and stack that up to what you get in monetary terms with the passing of the baton.

The money thing gets in the way of many thoughts... I always liked the idea "if you have to ask about the price, you can't afford it".  that only goes so far, but from my perspective having owned several Loars over the years, if I had to think about the purchases as an investment in pure dollar terms, I really shouldn't be buying a Loar.  That said, to this point in my life, I have never passed a Loar onto another at less than the $$ I had "in" the instrument.  BUT that is NOT the reason to have a Loar in your hands.  My life experience has been enriched by the association with these great instruments, and I play them every day.  If I didn't, or couldn't, they would be gone to another who could appreciate them in a heartbeat.  In fact, I will be passing one of them on in very short order... to whom, has yet to be determined, but it is time to share again...as far as "value", ref this thread, the next custodian, will be very happy.

----------

Darryl Wolfe, 

DataNick, 

Jeff Mando, 

Spruce

----------


## woodwizard

> Or perhaps if Bill hadn't owned it, its value would be around $35,000 today.  (Wait for it ...)


And probably would be in much better shape  :Smile:

----------


## Northwest Steve

> We are confusing "investment" with "having a cool thing to own" -- a signed Loar would definitely be the latter.  $175K in the bank in a crummy 4.1% 12 month CD would yield $7175 annually in interest income.  The Loar will not do that, you will probably lose money if you buy at $175K.  So, are you ready?.......owning one costs you $7175 a year to enjoy having. (assuming you have the disposable income to buy one)  Some people can afford this expenditure with no affect on their lifestyle.  A professional musician can write this off on their taxes......


Good point in simple monetary terms. Can you point out were you are currently getting 4.1% on a 12 mo CD, I am sure there are others that would be interested as well.

----------

bigskygirl, 

brunello97

----------


## Jeff Mando

> Good point in simple monetary terms. Can you point out were you are currently getting 4.1% on a 12 mo CD, I am sure there are others that would be interested as well.


I was trying to use an easy example with low risk to make a point.  As JFDilmando says there are reasons to own a Loar other than the rate of return and I agree.  Many things are like that.  It is admission, if you will, into an exclusive club that will enhance your musical life in other ways.  I have a car collector friend with close to 40 vintage cars, total value around $400K -- does his "investment" earn him a huge return?  No, but it is part of his identity and "what he does."  It is a "fun" thing to do with a part of your life savings, if you are lucky enough to have come out that well.

Someone like Dave Ramsey would scoff at "only" earning 4% on your money.  He frequently talks of 12% annually, with years of 14-18% possible -- plus long-term gains assisted by compounding interest.  Someone my age clearly remembers late 70's CD interest rates in the high teens as commonplace -- you could literally live off your interest back then -- harder, if not impossible to do today without risk.  Speaking of risk, when eBay first burst onto the scene, I would buy a nice used Les Paul locally for $1000 (often less than that), I'd list it on eBay and sell it for an average of $1400-1500.  Again, not the "top" money, but an average return.  You can quickly see I was making 40% on my money in ONE MONTH.  I did this every month for a year, selling 12 used guitars (very easy to do) -- so my interest was 480% annually.  And the same $1000 bought 12 Les Pauls over a course of a year -- pretty cool!  Very easy to do, but high risk considering having to ship 12 instruments and being handled by non-musicians, etc., but very very possible.  Let's say you do this with 20 instruments a month.....you can quickly see that a small $20K investment, would scale meteorically in a very small amount of time, but again it has risk.  Of course, you can drop a Loar, just as easily while practicing in your own home....

My larger point is that I'm a musician and this is what I like to do with my time and money.  IF my hobby was real estate, I probably would own several investment properties, instead of a room full of musical instruments.  If I woke up every morning and followed the stock market, I would probably be aware of certain trends, because I would spend a lot of time studying such things -- but instead, I play music.  And, if I were selling 20 instruments a month, I would no longer have time for music as I would be running a business, wouldn't I?

Obviously, I'm not trying to give financial advise, just making an observation on a forum and having fun.....we all justify our hobbies in our own ways.

----------


## mandovance

i think the entire vintage instrument market is a bad "investment" at this point. i'm 33, would love to own an old d-28 or f4, could, but won't pull the trigger because i think these are going to rapidly depreciate. the guitar and mandolin market is a reflection of boomer interests and boomer bank accounts. younger generations have nowhere near the interest in these instruments nor the money to buy them at current prices. when the older guys start getting sick or dropping off, you're going to see a ton of these instruments hit the market at the same time with relatively little interest on the other side. couple that with the explosion in high quality boutique instruments in the past 20 years and there are simply too many instruments out there. my generation was more into rock and the generation coming up is knee-deep into electronic music. investments are meant to be sold at some point, and i wouldn't want to be on the sell side of this market in 10-20 years.

----------

AlanN, 

Charlieshafer, 

j. condino, 

Jess L.

----------


## Folkmusician.com

> JSanta makes an excellent point about student debt. But there's something even greater at work here than income or disposable cash. While millennial may be the target demographic that's missing in instrument purchases, it extends a bit up the age ladder. What's more at work is a lessened desire to own stuff. Real estate agents in our area tell me that millennial (we'll just use that as a lose definition of age bracket) aren;t looking for the bigger house on a large lot. Something down close to town and smaller is more what they want. They don't really seem to care if they even own it.


I believe this is one of the biggest factors in play.  Obviously, the economy is/was a major factor, but as the economy has made some comeback, the instrument market is still in a decline. I am right at that age where my friends crossover into both the adjacent generations. A small percentage of Gen X (me) is embracing downsizing and I do have a few friends that have become full on minimalists. Speaking for myself, my combined amount of "stuff" is making me unhappy. The maintenance and worry has slowly diminished the enjoyment of owning things for me. This is not happening with the majority of Gen X, but it is enough to have some effect.

Now take Millennials...  A much higher percentage is not interested in amassing possessions. I won't say the majority, just a higher percentage than Gen X. Like Charlie points out, it is common for Millennials to not be interested in houses, cars, etc... There is a shift toward experiences, vs. possessions. As they age, this may change, but how likely is it that they focus in on vintage instruments?

It is too early to know what will happen with Gen Z, though we see the trend.   :Smile: 

Now, you think instrument collecting is a strange market...  Take a look at tech collectors. The price of vintage computers, original iPhones, iPods, etc...  Now most of us agree that the highly collectible vintage instruments represent some of the best instruments ever made, and at the very least they hold their own against modern equivalents. This just doesn't apply to something like owning a first generation iPod.  It is very strange. So there you go...  There is no market for a $175k Loar, but let's spend $90k on an iPod.  :Smile: 




> Apple I
> 
> The original Apple Computer, the Apple I, is considered one of the most valuable and collectable computers in the world. Only 575 units were ever sold, making it the rarest one around. Today, there are only 61 confirmed to exist, only six of which are functional.
> 
> In 2013, an Apple 1 sold at Christie's Auction for $390,000. Several have also appeared on eBay over the years, where the highest successful bid was $43,000.


My take...  There is a smaller percentage of people interested in owning items of any sort, let alone high dollar items. Of those that are in the market to buy desirable high dollar items, less are focused on instruments. It is not the inflated asking price that keeps these Loars from moving. There are plenty of people that can afford the asking prices.  :Smile:

----------

Charlieshafer, 

DataNick, 

Jess L.

----------


## DataNick

This one on consignment at Elderly for $135K...that $120K quoted reference earlier is apparently right on the money!



24 Loar F5 at Elderly

----------


## Charlieshafer

> This one on consignment at Elderly for $135K...that $120K quoted reference earlier is apparently right on the money!
> 
> 
> 
> 24 Loar F5 at Elderly


Assuming it even sells for that! Right now, we're in an odd period. About the only "collectibles" or high ticket items that are also considered investments that are selling are rare automobiles and Strads. I'm thinking trying to guess if this is a long-term trend is a mistake at this point. On the other hand, after a re-set period as the newer collectors consider what's valuable to them, a lot of what we thought was a sure bet may be left out in the cold. Old Martins, Loars and Elvis records may be in the dustbin of desirability for all but a few zealots. It's impossible to tell, but if there's a turnaround, and Loars start trending upwards, it'll be a long time coming.There's simply too much available, and the few people who might be interested in acquiring one won't do enough to nudge the market. All it takes is a couple of sellers to need to raise some cash, lower their price for a quick sale, and there goes the market even further.

----------

DataNick, 

Gary Hedrick, 

Jess L.

----------


## mandroid

Will it enhance your income, playing it professionally?




 :Whistling:

----------

Jess L.

----------


## Spruce

> Will it enhance your income, playing it professionally?


No...
...that, and it will certainly enhance your stress levels...    :Wink:

----------


## DataNick

> No...
> ...that, and it will certainly enhance your stress levels...


All the honor, reverence, and respect due to you Bruce...I'm questioning though why this is the case?

I treat my 94' F5L like it is indeed a Loar; almost never leaves my side, goes to work with me and lives in my cubicle, goes to the store, movie theater, I mean literally EVERYWHERE!

Why? Because it's a really special mandolin that from what I've been told by several pros and cognoscenti, is pretty darn close to a Loar, and my financial situation and life in general precludes me from ever _replacing_ it. We live in the constant threat of wildfires here in SoCal, there's been 2 mandatory evacuations where I live in the past 15 years and _I don't trust life_. I trust myself, and God, and so to the best of my ability I eliminate worry from the equation by keeping it at my side.

Aside from insurance costs, what's the diff?

----------


## mandroid

Just never set it down and turn your back for a second..

Refer to the Stolen Strad violin,  taken at a London coffee shop when the owner checked her phone..

----------

DataNick, 

Jess L.

----------


## DataNick

> Just never set it down and turn your back for a second..
> 
> Refer to the Stolen Strad violin,  taken at a London coffee shop when the owner checked her phone..


Shoulder strap...

----------


## Spruce

> All the honor, reverence, and respect due to you Bruce...I'm questioning though why this is the case?
> 
> I treat my 94' F5L like it is indeed a Loar; almost never leaves my side, goes to work with me and lives in my cubicle, goes to the store, movie theater, I mean literally EVERYWHERE!
> 
> Why? Because it's a really special mandolin that from what I've been told by several pros and cognoscenti, is pretty darn close to a Loar, and my financial situation and life in general precludes me from ever _replacing_ it. We live in the constant threat of wildfires here in SoCal, there's been 2 mandatory evacuations where I live in the past 15 years and _I don't trust life_. I trust myself, and God, and so to the best of my ability I eliminate worry from the equation by keeping it at my side.
> 
> Aside from insurance costs, what's the diff?


For you, apparently no dif...
For me (based on lugging around a Monteleone that was only worth a measly 25K), a _huge_ dif...   :Wink:

----------


## JFDilmando

Anyone that is going to get stressed out by having an instrument.... any instrument, Loar, or Monteleone, or Brand X that costs $110, should not have that instrument....  Simple.  If ownership of anything, freaks someone out... either find a way to get over it, or remove the cause...
No one is suggesting that any of those folks, that shake their heads and say that they would be a nervous wreck with a Loar, should have one.... Simple.
I fail to understand the contribution where folks state "I could never do that" regarding cost, or stress... so what ?  The implication is that since they can't or couldn't then others shouldn't either.... I don't get it.

----------


## DataNick

I don't know if I'm the object of the last post or not, but I don't get stressed out. I figured out how to eliminate the factor of variance by just keeping mine with me at all times. I treat it as an extension of me and am privileged without stress to be the caretaker of such a fine instrument.

Can't speak for others, but I'm in control of my mando situation...YMMV

----------


## JFDilmando

no.. was not responding to your note datanick... just commenting in general on all the folks chiming in and saying they could never pay so much money for an instrument, or how can anyone deal with the stress of having such an instrument... 
well... some people can't imagine going on a roller coaster, either... has nothing to do with others lives and what they like to do or what instruments they like to have

----------

DataNick

----------


## DataNick

Gotcha John!

----------


## Fretbear

"That damned thing......"

Norman Blake talking about his Loar (now Nancy's)

----------


## DataNick

I've got a question for those participating in this thread and for former/current Loar owners in particular. I was having back channel discussions off-Cafe with a former Loar owner who educated me on the phenomena that the real-deal Loars have an _"it"_ factor in tone, volume, and playability. It is recognizable only by those whose palette sensibilities to such things has been tuned. The main characteristic attributed as responsible for the instrument having this quality is its age (>90 years). It is said that a person like Dawg, can pick up a Loar and within minutes of playing the instrument can tell you if the Loar has _"it"_ or not.

So here's my 2 part question:

A. Did Monroe's Loar at 23 years of age in 1946, or one of Apollon's Loars of 10-15 years of age in the late 1930s have the _"it"_ factor? Those whose palettes are so attuned can judge/measure this by the recordings made with those instruments.

B. If the answer to question A is yes, then does it not stand to reason that today's luthiers (Gilchrist, Dude, Nugget, Gibson, Monteleone, etc) having produced instruments that are 10 to 23 years old and older should also have the _"it"_ factor?

It is said that Steve Gilchrist is building mandolins currently on his approximations of what a brand new Loar era mandolin would have played and sounded like; so apparently there is a belief in the possibilities of this to be true!

----------


## Charlieshafer

uh oh.. now we get back to the old "new vs. old" thing that was debated in the Strad vs. new violin thing. No one knows what they sounded like when new, they're just old enough that a 20 year old person back then, presumably just old enough to hear and appreciate the differences, would be roughly 114 years old when playing a brand new Loar. I think Gilchrist's idea is interesting, and worthy of merit, but there's still guesswork going on. 

The main point of value still goes back to the bulk of younger pros feeling that a Loar is worth it as a career choice. Essentially, does it make you play better or sound better, will it enhance your career by spending about $165,000 more than necessary? Clearly, the answer is no. We're talking about Joe K. Walsh's Nugget "A", or Andy Statman's old beat up Gibson "A", or Josh Pinkham's Red Diamond. Dawg's plugging Giacomels. The younger guys just out of Berklee (that's more local for me, so I see what they're playing) are pretty much all playing decent things they got used. Thile's the only guy who really gets a high level of visibility nationally, and outside of the mandolin-geek-specific community, who plays one.

So basically, Loars are not for the professional player anymore, like a Strad would be for a violinist, they've become something for wealthy guys to say they have. And, romance and pleasure of playing aside, it doesn't say much for holding value, especially when you consider with all the talk about them on the Cafe here over the years, they're still just sitting on the shelves of the dealers.

----------

DataNick, 

j. condino, 

Jess L.

----------


## Timbofood

If I had one, I would not really treat it any differently than my current (un impressive looking but nicely voiced) mandolin. Treat everything with respect and it is not a burden but a joy to own. Agreed, if you are just going to be "looking over your shoulder" for fear of theft or damage, don't buy one. It's like people that buy expensive watches (cars, clothes, whatever) and do nothing but either flaunt or fret over them. Value is not always financial it can be egotistical or simply the satisfaction that you have something built at (what may have been at the time) the apex of design.

----------

DataNick

----------


## Hendrik Ahrend

> I've got a question for those participating in this thread and for former/current Loar owners in particular. I was having back channel discussions off-Cafe with a former Loar owner who educated me on the phenomena that the real-deal Loars have an _"it"_ factor in tone, volume, and playability. It is recognizable only by those whose palette sensibilities to such things has been tuned. The main characteristic attributed as responsible for the instrument having this quality is its age (>90 years). It is said that a person like Dawg, can pick up a Loar and within minutes of playing the instrument can tell you if the Loar has _"it"_ or not.
> 
> So here's my 2 part question:
> 
> A. Did Monroe's Loar at 23 years of age in 1946, or one of Apollon's Loars of 10-15 years of age in the late 1930s have the _"it"_ factor? Those whose palettes are so attuned can judge/measure this by the recordings made with those instruments.
> 
> B. If the answer to question A is yes, then does it not stand to reason that today's luthiers (Gilchrist, Dude, Nugget, Gibson, Monteleone, etc) having produced instruments that are 10 to 23 years old and older should also have the _"it"_ factor?
> 
> It is said that Steve Gilchrist is building mandolins currently on his approximations of what a brand new Loar era mandolin would have played and sounded like; so apparently there is a belief in the possibilities of this to be true!


A. Yes IMO, in the case of Mon (who purchased his Loar in January '45). Not sure about Apollon, AFAIK he kept using any newer F5 Gibson would give him and might not have been so fanatic about the Loar sound.

B. Yes IMO, there are certainly some with the "it" factor. But both, Monteleone and Gilchrist never strove for the Loar sound, except for their earliest efforts. Especially Gilchrist saw a market for mandolins with plenty of volume and a strong bass response. Since 2003 (Mike Compton's #536) Steve, as he told me personally, has put more effort in getting that Monroe sound, which is still typical loarish, but at the same time standing out from all others. Monroe's Loar was very special, Wakefield's, Loar #70281 and perhaps a few others may get close. I'd say some of Gilchrist's later models should have "it", if we refer to Mon's F5.
I'm quite sure Gibson's workers with Loar breathing down their necks occasionally couldn't do magic. Both age and playing time play a role.

Now how about John Reischman's Loar, which sounds quite unlike Monroe's or Apollon's? Does it have "it"? Most mando lovers sure think so. 

Nick, you certainly got the bug. I suggests that you drive around and try as many mandos/Loars as possible. If you can't hear and feel a difference, you won't need to dream about Loars anymore and be happy ever after.

Cheers,
Hendrik Ahrend

----------

DataNick, 

Timbofood

----------


## AlanN

Well-said. I would add in David M.'s (Johnson Mountain Boys) to the 'it' mix, also Dewey Farmer's '26 fern.

----------

DataNick, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Vernon Hughes

----------


## Jeff Mando

Excuse my ignorance on the topic, but had Monroe played other Loars prior to buying his?  Or did he just try that one and say, "Wow!" ?

----------


## Gary Hedrick

In the years 2001 thru 2010 I hosted a number of picking sessions at my house.  5 jams going on at once....invited folks to bring their mandolins to be played by all those in attendance.....75 to 100 folks....no kids....no alcohol.....30 to 50 mandolins available to play....Loars, Ferns, Gilchrists, Dudes, Kimbles, Monteleones, Nuggets, Red Diamonds, many F4's, Snakeheads, Woodleys, New Master Models, Taggerts, and so on.....if you brought the mandolin and laid it out to be seen it was fair game for someone to grab it and go play in a jam session. 

Interesting result of this was that not everyone thought that a Loar was the end all and be all of mandolins....many liked a Dude or a Gil or an F4 etc. This was the main idea of my having these.....get a chance to play one in a "band" setting and see what you think. So while I hold a Loar in very high esteem not all are created equal and many of today's instruments are really really good. 

So I agree with what has been said in the above recent posts........BUT darn an old Loar sure is neat!!!

ps. there were a number of really great pickers at these....Butch Robbins, Brian Aldridge, Mike Cleveland, Donnie Anderson, David McCarthy and so on. So folks that knew how to play well and also a number of beginners too....F5L's, Kentucky's and other brands.  David Harvey came and brought the full line of instruments at the time so folks got to play a Skaggs distressed and all the others too.   My former Loar was there and from across the room one could not tell which was the Skaggs and which was the January 12th, 23.....both from a sound and a looks standpoint. Put a good instrument in the hands of a Master like David and it they all are magical.

----------

DataNick, 

j. condino, 

Timbofood

----------


## DataNick

Thanks Guys!

I don't have a bug to buy a Loar, but I am curious about the experience, and when people who have played my 94' F5L jump up and exclaim it's one of the best mandolins they've ever played including 4-5 Loars, when Adam Steffey while playing mine just smiles shaking his head and mutters Gibson!...well that makes me feel good about what I've got...but I'd love to A/B Loars with mine, Gils, etc.

Gary's pickin parties sound like Nirvana!...LOL!

----------

Gary Hedrick, 

Timbofood

----------


## DataNick

> Excuse my ignorance on the topic, but had Monroe played other Loars prior to buying his?  Or did he just try that one and say, "Wow!" ?


Don't know if he ever had played one before Jeff. He did own/play an F7 from the Monroe Brother days (mid 30s) until he got his Loar.

----------

Jeff Mando

----------


## William Smith

> Well-said. I would add in David M.'s (Johnson Mountain Boys) to the 'it' mix, also Dewey Farmer's '26 fern.


I believe each Loar has the "it" thing, even the unsigned and ferns! each one is different and depending on what voice one likes, I'd be happy with any one of em, I've even played some 30's F-5's that had a great voice to em, Its all on what one would like. It also is IN the musician on how well they can make em sound. The only Loar I've gotten to spend serious time with is my uncle Gene Johnsons, His is the first known of the Feb,18th 24's  #75305. Now that thing to me has such a refined tone/voice that it is different than a lot of the Loars heard. You can listen to his work with David Bromberg Quartet live in NYC cd and hear for yourself, I'm sure its on youtube. 
  I agree some may be better than others but each has something, some just need played more than sitting around in a vault or shop for many years, and well we've all seen the same ones sitting around, If ya have the $ make an offer and let em sing, even the cheapest Loar out there may surprise you with a songbook pumped through it! My opinion :Smile:

----------


## Spruce

> ...when Adam Steffey while playing mine just smiles shaking his head and mutters Gibson!...


Yeah, I do that all the time...    :Wink: 




> I believe each Loar has the "it" thing...


I dunno...
I've played a handful that sadly did absolutely nothing for me....
I know that setup had something to do with one of them, as it sounded great 5 years earlier...
YMMV...

----------

Gary Hedrick, 

Timbofood

----------


## DataNick

From "The Lure Of The Loar ad In Classifieds" thread in 2009





> The "lure of the Loar" will never "run its course" ...even in these economic times. The market being in the $200k ballpark, imo, is less than what these rare instruments should actually be valued at. But it is what it is. Anyway, the market price on these babies have been what you consider "excessive" for decades and it's still a solid investment. Better than buying gold by a long shot. *Ten years from now, when they're closing-in on $400k - $500k* I may wish I held on to Joe Val's #72207...



I'm not dissing Kevin, however it appears now that the reverse is true at 8 years in and closing in on prices closer to $100K...YMMV

----------

almeriastrings, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Gary Hedrick

----------


## almeriastrings

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.... and predicting the future can be, well, difficult.... we are all supposed to be flying around in our personal (nuclear powered, no less) flying saucer things by now... according to those who predicted this back in the 1950's..

----------

DataNick, 

Timbofood

----------


## Timbofood

Real value is the same as it's always been:
As much as the buyer is willing to pay! 
Anything else is "hopeful"

----------

DataNick, 

Gary Hedrick

----------


## fscotte

Gold price goes up and down, but it never loses its value.  Loars are the gold standard.  We've all seen pieces of antique furniture that sell for ridiculous prices.  Well first, A Loar is very much like one of those fine pieces of furniture.  But far more useful.

----------

Gary Hedrick

----------


## William Smith

I dunno...
I've played a handful that sadly did absolutely nothing for me....
I know that setup had something to do with one of them, as it sounded great 5 years earlier...
YMMV...[/QUOTE]

See the one you played sounded great years before, setup is everything. I still say each one has something. :Whistling:

----------


## AlanN

At one of the Loarfests in Louisville, a guy had one which had fallen into disrepair and severe neglect. It sounded terrible. Gilchrist was there and just did a little R&R on it, it was miraculous how it responded. I agree with bluegrasser78. They all have the basis for greatness, some just need some TLC and care. And there will also always be the detractors....

----------

DataNick, 

Gary Hedrick

----------


## Jeff Mando

> At one of the Loarfests in Louisville, a guy had one which had fallen into disrepair and severe neglect. It sounded terrible. Gilchrist was there and just did a little R&R on it, it was miraculous how it responded. I agree with bluegrasser78. They all have the basis for greatness, some just need some TLC and care. And there will also always be the detractors....


Cool story!  Great sports analogy -- "is there a doctor in the house?"  I guess all hobbies have their superstars -- and a signed Loar is about as good as it gets for the mandolin hobby.  Or maybe, historically, a Loar would be Babe Ruth, Monteleone maybe Reggie Jackson, Gilchrist let's say Nolan Ryan, Dude would be Maddux, etc.............just thinkin'........ :Mandosmiley:

----------

