# Music by Genre > Old-Time, Roots, Early Country, Cajun, Tex-Mex >  Fingerpicked mandolin tunes

## damianip

Hi, I'm new here, I've picked up a mandolin a while back after years of being a middling guitarist, I'm starting my journey to becoming a middling mando player.

I have seen a few threads on the forum about fingerstyle mando and found an old one which actually asks why Kottke-esque tunes (Fahey, etc.) have never made it to the mandolin or at least, have not been very popular.

One mandolin tune which I've always loved is "*Angel of Baffins Bay*", by Peter Lang (the third member of the original Takoma records guitar triumvirate with Kottke and Fahey). I don't know if I could ever manage to play this tune, but I'd love to hear more like it.

My question is: "Does anyone still play mandolin like this?"

If you don't know the song, and there's a good chance you haven't, you can download MP3s of the album which it is on at Peter's website. The album is "Prime Cuts".

http://langfund.org/html/downloads.php?dl=1

_As an aside, Peter has been out of commission for a few years due to the persistent effects of an auto accident._ 

However, he has chosen to make some of his catalogue available for download.

Not shilling for Peter, just wondering what the mando-cognoscenti think of the song and style.

Paolo

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## Jim Garber

I always thought that fingerpicking is a much undiscovered area of mandolin playing. Lang is a virtuoso fingerpicker on guitar or mandolin. Thanks for the link.

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## Jim Nollman

I recall hearing a version of _Brownsville Blues_, years ago, with fingerpicked mandolin. It prompted me to figure out my version of the same tune using fingerpicks. I never got very far with it, and stopped trying, because mandolin double strings offer so much more resistance than a fingerpicked guitar. Your post makes me think I'll try it again.

I recently downloaded some tunes off a CD of country blues from the 1930s that featured mandolin players. One of the tunes, _Easy Winners_, could conceivably have been fingerpicked, although just as likely not. if you listen to it, tell me what you think.

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## Samjessin

Easy Winners is definitely flat picked.  Matthew Prater's style of playing a banjo mandolin really makes each note count.

Check out Mother's Prayer by the Little Brothers on iTunes for some great fingerpicked mandola.

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## allenhopkins

> ...My question is: "Does anyone still play mandolin like this?"...


Radim Zenkl...?

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## Jacob

Isn't Radim Zenkl's instrument in the clip above strung with single string courses, not double?

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## William Smith

The amaz :Grin: ing Don Reno was probably the first to fingerpick the mandolin,,He did this on a few gospel songs in the early 50's!,,I'm trying to think about the names of the tunes,"Just check out the 50's boxed set,,Billy

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## Big Joe

I've never tried to fingerpick a mandolin, but it can be done.  I used to have a guy work for me that was raised in bluegrass and could play any instrument you put in front of him.  I don't mean just play a little, but really play.  He loved to play tele "Chicken Picking" style.  He began doing that on mandolin and it blew me away.  It was incredible!  He plays mostly country and mostly electric guitar, but he is an incredible picker.  That was the first time I ever thought of fingerpicking a mandolin.

At SPBGMA last February Little Roy Lewis (Lewis Family) stopped by to see a particular mandolin and he put his fingerpicks on and picked it like the banjo.  He was very good and really made the mandolin sound great.  Another style of mandolin playing I had not thought of.  I guess I need to expand my horizons!  I've hears Radim play a few times and it was always entertaining but certainly not something I was likely to try.

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## AlanN

Radim is a marvel. Niles has explored fingerpickin, amongst the others listed here. I think Duffey may have done and recorded some, too.

I used to pick with a departed banjo man. On stage one time, he motioned me to hand over the Gilchrist so he could do a fingerpickin tune on it. I took a look at the metal picks on his fingers, had some kittens, and handed it over. He was careful and stayed away from the top. He was pretty good on it.

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## Fretbear

That mandolin Radim is playing is quite far from being a standard one, and he gets a great tone from it. 
If you fingerpick much, guitar, banjo, etc. the mandolin has a lot going against it as a great first choice. It is not the double courses so much as their relatively high-tension. I sometimes string up my Trinity College Bouzouki with a double high thumb-string in place of the bass course, and play it in an open tuning like a five-string banjo with fingerpicks. 
It sounds good, with the banjo kind of rolls but with more of a smooth bright tone like a guitar.
It's great for playing "take-off" Earl Scruggs stuff like "Reuben" and "Nashville Blues."

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## Big Joe

I don't think fingerpicking would be so hard, but you would have to have a bit wider fingerboard so there would be room for the fingers between the courses of strings.  At least for me!  I guess if you used finger picks you could do a bit better, but I don't think they would help me.  I hate using fingerpicks on anything!  That's why I like playing old time banjo  :Smile:  .  I just use my fingers.

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## journeybear

This subject has come up before, oddly enough _last_ August. At that time in this thread I thought it fitting to share my contribution to the style as a demonstration. You will surely find more intricate pieces, but I hope you will enjoy this too. For your convenience (and everyone's) I'll place it here too.



It has long been my contention that just because something isn't done that often, that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done at all. People are limited by their imagination, or lack thereof. So even if some think that such approaches as fingerpicked mandolin or rock mandolin are unconventional or only for novelty purposes, they are hampered by being provincial or close-minded. I don't see any reason why anyone can't play any music he likes on his instrument of choice. Bottom line: if it works, it works.  :Mandosmiley: 

BTW, Big Joe, I am managing in this piece because I let my fingernails on my right hand grow for just such opportunities.  :Wink:  Also, recently I have found use for this technique on the electric. On some slow songs, on which I want to evoke the sound of a pedal steel, I adjust my settings in such a way that a soft touch is required, and I use my fingers to barely touch the strings, sometimes plucking two strings like a double-stop, and use the wah-wah as a sort of volume pedal. In this mode I actually avoid using pick - it will cause notes to jump out too harshly. Also, sometimes I use my nails in a brush stroke for various effects.

And damianip - Welcome to the Café!

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## catmandu2

Growing up with classical guitar, I've fingerpicked everything with strings.  What fretbear says--about the high tension being the foremost impediment--is correct.  Add the doubles to the high tension, and it's particularly not well-suited to fingerstyle playing.  In order to play fingerstyle effectively, one must not only use fingernails (or picks) but also employ a *proper attack*--just as we do with a flatpick--to move through the double courses, get the body resonating, and render more than a wan and effete sound.  Approaching fingerpicking the mandolin simply as one would a guitar will not produce satisfying results--the mandolin generally requires a more vigorous attack, due to its higher string tension; the different instruments require different techniques.

Finger_picking_ is a bit of a misnomer--implying that one merely "plucks" the string.  What actually is required is to *drive through* the string(s).  Most folks who casually fingerpick a 12-string guitar similarly do not use a proper technique for the instrument--and 50% of the time do not play both strings of the double course with equal energy.  And the higher the string tension, the more difficult it is to execute proper fingerstyle technique.   By "proper" I mean technique with adequate energy and attack to power the instrument enabling command over its voice, rather than merely plucking a string without making the instrument speak.  We can get away with plucking on single-course guitars and of course electric mandolins to some degree, but the energy requirements of standard mandolin requires special technique.

Casual fingerpicking is fun, but not well-suited to make the mandolin speak.  Fingerstyle playing requires much practice to acquire skill to enable each finger to function adequately--as would a flatpick.  Without proper technique, one is just bouncing one's fingers off the string after it is plucked.  This will not elicit tonal response from the instrument--resulting in underutilization of the instrument.

The large bodied mandolins--CBOM--work much better; I like to occasionally use my 5-course cittern for fingerstyle.

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## Mandobart

I don't finger pick much on mandolin, but I do on my octave mandolin and mandocello.  I've also posted this before on this forum:



On guitar, OM, mandocello or mandolin, I never got used to picking with fingernails; fingertips seem to work best for me.

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## catmandu2

> why Kottke-esque tunes (Fahey, etc.) have never made it to the mandolin


Forgot to say welcome to cafe Paolo.  Now that I've read your OP...

Regarding the concept of playing fingerstyle guitar repertoire on mando, there is this to consider: my flamenco guitar mentor Rene Heredia said in a masterclass once, "the guitar is a miniature piano."  That is, when exploited fingerstyle it is capable of polyphony and self accompaniment similar to what can be achieved with piano--viz., integrating rhythmic with lyrical and harmonic elements--in self-accompanied solo style, which is mostly why we play fingerstyle.

One of my favorite Kottke tunes to play is Watermelon.  I could see a bluegrass band taking this on--where you have more instrumental reinforcement to execute the elements.  But fingerstyle mandolin?  Kottle, Fahey, Lang, Hedges, Jansch, Bensusan...they need(ed) a larger palette.

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## Tom Wright

The Leo Kottke tune I want to tackle is "William Powell". I can do pretty much everything with a flat pick, since he is always alternating, not doing real counterpoint. This is why it has so much drive, though---he is always hitting that strong rhythm.

Of course finger picking won't do for pounding bluegrass solos, but it is feasible on my Buchanan, given the fairly wide spacing. I don't do it much, since I don't want to use finger picks---I want the speed and power of a flat pick. I did do a fair amount of finger picking, without picks, on my electric for Dear Prudence--
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...-Solo-5-string

But there is a lot you can do for bringing out harmony and bass lines by using only the flat pick, as in my Shenandoah medley---
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...-Solo-5-string

The larger pitch range of fifths means wider separation between melody and bass is convenient without going way up the neck, and the small scale means you can stretch for close-voiced chords as well as open ones.

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## catmandu2

I could see WP on mandolin very nicely Tom--more of a choro approach.  But me (being spoilt on guitars), I would just use a flatpick--especially for the rhythmic emphasis.  Would like to hear your fingerstyle concept on that.

An extreme and not particular parallel analogy: playing a mandolin fingerstyle is like playing a violin pizzicato, from the sonic standpoint.  Not speaking of electric and single-string electric instruments...which are totally different--one needs neither picks nor nails with electric instruments.

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## journeybear

> An extreme and not particular parallel analogy: playing a mandolin fingerstyle is like playing a violin pizzicato, from the sonic standpoint.


Not at all. From a _physical_ standpoint, OK, but pretty obvious - the musician is playing the instrument with fingers rather than the usual device (bow or pick). But from a _sonic_ standpoint, there is a much greater difference between the sound produced by a violin by bow or finger and the difference between the sound produced by mandolin by pick or finger. For an analogy to be useful the compared items have to be _somewhat_ similar. Otherwise it is like a fish on a bicycle, or however that bit of doggerel went.  :Smile: 

A better comparison might be made between the sounds produced by piano vs. harpsichord, as there the difference is between struck and plucked strings, as is the case in this discussion. But there really is no need; the difference in playing technique is obvious and inherent. I think the examples presented of Radim and Mandobart (nice job, and nice hat, sir!) playing their instruments show the technique is not only possible but viable. My video ... well, I apologize for the quality of the audio and video aspects, but mostly for my own ham-fisted efforts.  :Frown:  Hadn't looked at that in a while, and I can see I was paying more attention to my left hand than my right. Not that the cheap camera I used helps matters any ... Still, it shows the mandolin _can_ be played this way, and if so by a technically proficient player something worth hearing might be produced. 

I believe a plucked mandolin can produce a good full-bodied sound if played strongly enough, as the strings can still be displaced enough this way for the result to compare favorably with picked strings. But I think the tendency may well be to concentrate on a softer, quieter sound - which may be perfectly suitable for the piece being played. I wouldn't characterize the sound produced this way as wan or effete - these seem pejorative terms - but soft, quiet, pleasant, nice, charming - these are the kinds of adjectives I would use to describe a fingerpicked mandolin. And in the hands of a master - if Kottke were to stop taking the easy way out by playing guitar and attempt something truly challenging like a mandolin  :Smile:  - who knows what could be achieved?  :Mandosmiley:

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## Tom Wright

> I could see WP on mandolin very nicely Tom--more of a choro approach.  But me (being spoilt on guitars), I would just use a flatpick--especially for the rhythmic emphasis.  Would like to hear your fingerstyle concept on that.


It was the choro groove that made me want to adapt WP, but I was suggesting I would use flat pick. When I do finger pick, it is flat pick combined with plain 2nd, 3rd, 4th fingers. That's the best of both worlds, I think; I got into that habit from days of electric guitar.

I'm working up a solo moto perpetuo that I originally wrote for my 5-string electric fiddle, which works great on either 5-string or 10-string. It requires a bit of finger picking for its intro and ending.

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## journeybear

Interesting. Do the picked notes sound different from the plucked notes - either in volume or tone or timbre - enough so that they are distracting? Or is that something that _you_ would hear more than a listener, being that you are tuned in to what you are playing and how, more than they? Do you have a hard time maintaining the two styles simultaneously?

I haven't done that much, and tend to tuck the pick between my thumb and the fleshy part of the palm next to it if I am going to fingerpick in the middle of a song. I can incorporate the brush stroke I mentioned earlier into a mostly picked song, but that is a very distinctive sound and use it sparingly.

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## catmandu2

Perhaps I should have clarified the basis for my rough analogy.  The high-tensioned mandolin best with a plectrum (and a hard one at that), and the violin does best (of course) with bow.  Employing either in alternative styles generally results in underutilization of the instruments sonic potential.

Tom, I used to play quite a bit with flatpick and fingers (3 & 4)--especially until I developed a heavy thumb necessary in flamenco playing.  Journeybear, the object is to reduce disparities between picked and plucked notes as mich as possible.  Unless of course, one were desiring the effect of these sonic differentials in the music which is typcally not the case.

In fingerstyle playing--just as in flatpicking where we strive to enable fluid picking, where one note should sound just like the one preceding and following, until we desire otherwise--great practice is devoted to enabling each finger to sound like the others--in weight, attack, and so forth--which is fundamentally more challengeing considering that each finger is a different legnth and shape.  Shaping of fingernails can compensate for some irregularites between fingers (I keep a shorter nail on my longest finger, etc.), but long hours of practice are required to devlop this facility and finger independence--much like a piano player or drummer.

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## catmandu2

> Not at all... For an analogy to be useful the compared items have to be _somewhat_ similar.


For me, it seems totally natural, useful and relevant.  MV

The broader one's frames of reference, the more relationships one may form.  I often prefer a more poetic approach--especalliy with analogies.

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## catmandu2

> the object is to reduce disparities between picked and plucked notes as mich as possible.  Unless of course, one were desiring the effect of these sonic differentials in the music which is typcally not the case.


After pausing on this for a moment--I realize that I very often vary the weight between my fingers when playing fingerstyle guitar--for phrasing, and to accentuate certain notes within a chord.  I was referring, above, to developing the capacity to play evenly, which of course is necessary.  But, one of the beauties of fingerstyle is the ability to phrase each note independently, even within the chord...this is a tremendous advantage to players of fingerstyle techniques.

On the general effect of the aesthetic sound of playing mandolin fingerstyle...I will concede, yes, it sounds light, airy, nice.  I think the reason you haven't found more "masters" (a la Kottke) playing mandolin fingerstyle is because it _isn't_ particularly viable--employing the mandoin fingerstyle has rather limited potential, imo.

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## damianip

Thanks to all for the welcomes. I'm pleased that my first post was interesting enough to merit more than a couple replies.

Part of what I found so amazing about Lang's performance is his right hand. It sounds to me like he is wearing steel fingerpicks, but his technique is both precise and strong. I suppose that a lot of 12 string fingerpicking would help to develop this combination, but the requirement for precision would be even higher on a mandolin. 

Since I find myself hopelessly clumsy when using fingerpicks, I find it even more impressive.

I'm trying to imagine if he could flat pick this but, to my guitarist ears, I don't think it's possible.

The oddest thing of all is that it seems that the mandolin was a bit of a novelty in his recorded canon. It's too bad because, as I said in the OP, I really love this tune.

Paolo

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## catmandu2

Cool Paolo.  I tried to find Angels of Baffin Bay on the tube--no luck.

The right hand is where it al happens, for sure.  What's characteristic in the styles of Kottke, Fahey and Lang particularly is much leading with the thumb a la banjo style.  They integrate plenty of banjoistsic devices along with routine ostinato and alternating-bass guitar patterns and the combination really drives the music rhythmically.  I've sometimes thought of this style as a kind of banjo picking as applied to guitar--wherein you have much more latitude both harmonically and rhythmically.  It's a fun style--integrating trad guitar picking, rags, blues motifs, dissonant harmonies, and elements from banjo.  This is my favorite style to play on steel string guitar.

So, that's a lot to cull from a mandolin.  I would really be interested in hearing Tom's and other's treatments.  It would definitely be an exercise in economy and adaptation as the mandolin simply lacks many of the guitar's capacities to render this music.  I think it would be cool for someone to do some faltpicking mandolin treatments--where the percussive elements of mandolin can be exploited in arranging this music for mando.

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## damianip

> Cool Paolo.  I tried to find Angels of Baffin Bay on the tube--no luck.
> 
> _SNIP_


If you go here, Peter has made much of his back catalogue available for download:

From my OP:




> If you don't know the song, and there's a good chance you haven't, you can download MP3s of the album which it is on at Peter's website. The album is "Prime Cuts".
> 
> http://langfund.org/html/downloads.php?dl=1


Check it out, there's lots of fine guitar work, and a little bit of mando as well.

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## catmandu2

Aha--thanks for the remedial tutorial...I need that sometimes.

Peter's concept on mandolin is pretty much his guitar approach.  Interesting.  You don't hear much of this--as you mentioned.  I'll bet that was difficult to do--moreso than on guitar.

One of the things I enjoy so much about these forums is the inspiration they yield.  I took out my guitar last night and played some Kottke.  I rarely play guitar anymore...there's so much music.  Thanks Paolo

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## MandoSquirrel

> The amazing Don Reno was probably the first to fingerpick the mandolin,,He did this on a few gospel songs in the early 50's!,,I'm trying to think about the names of the tunes,"Just check out the 50's boxed set,,Billy


Perhaps in a bluegrass context, but I'm sure others were fingerpicking mandolins in other contexts long before the(I agree) amazing Mr. Reno.

Ry Cooder(whose "Brownsville Blues" performance was probably the one cited in another post) used to fingerpick mandolin & family quite a bit; I'm not sure if he still does much, as his music hasn't been as interesting the last 20 years or so.

I've tried fingerpicking mando, but find the double, high tension strings very uncomfortable on the fingers, though I love hearing fingerstyle mandolin. But, I'm not much of a fingerpicker on anything but nose.

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## catmandu2

Perhaps as a diversion?  I'm sure we've (those of use who fingerpick) _all_ dabbled with it for fun.  I've even fingerpicked my hammered dulcimers.  Another way, perhaps, to look at it is--whom among us have performed any fingerstyle mandolin? 

Certainly, electric mandolin can be effectively deployed fingerstyle in any number of ways.  But acoustic, more or less standard mando--you can bang on that thing with fingerpicks all you want, but I think the instrument (aside from the physical/ergonomic challenges) has inherent sonic/harmonic limitations in this regard.  I think Lang's example pretty much shows this.  Not dissing it at all--only comparing it to his guitar work, and I think why he and oters have not devoted more to developing a mandolin concept.  For a variety of reasons, mandolin is just not a great solo fingerstyle instrument.  Fun?  By all means.

I agree wth John McLaughlin who said, in his opinion, flamenco techniqiue is the superior right hand technique.  This is logical, as flamenco does as much with the five fingers of the right hand as can be conceived on nylon strings--rendering the most capacious right hand technical approach.

The reason I mention this, is--there's only so much innovation that we'll see with the right hand.  Use of fingerpicks--which we all seem to agree is necessary to provide adequate attack in high-tension double-courise strings--precludes much of flamenco right hand technique, as both sides of the finger and total hand is used, both sides in all manner of ways.  Many of the techniques by Hedges and Emmanul are derivations of rasqueado techniques--unattainable with fingerpicks.  Then this means that much of the innovation we've seen with guitar--right hand "extended" technique--is inaccessible to mandolin.  The other hand--harmonic--is obviously also more limited than on guitar.

I would love to hear more by folks who've really taken it on seriously--as Lang's "Angels.." piece, which is realy a wonderful example of his fingerstyle guitar approach applied to mandolin.  Very unique.  But I could be wrong--and I'd love to hear more.  My supposition is that although many of us have dabbled, few of us have achieved the success of Lang, much less put it to record.  And I really appreciate Paolo posting this thread, as I'm long-windedly only explaining aspects that he set forth in his OP.

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## catmandu2

Sorry for my verbosity--but I just did a little direct observation--grabbed my mando and did a little focused picking.  And I played some Kottke's watermelon--though this wroks better predominantly flatpicking...my tendency was to play it more bluegrassy.

The problem for me--being adept at several styles of FS--was not particularly the high-tension of the strings, but the lack of space to enable use of more than two fingers (thumb and 1st) and squeezing in the 3rd.  But, there aren't enough strings to need a third much except for arpeggios and such.  There is little room for the fingers to engage and come into play (guitar-style), and there aren't enough strings to need them, particularly.  So yeah, little room to exploit more than two fingers.  But yes, the two finger style can do a lot (see the intro to Bron-y-aur Stomp on Led Zep 3, for ex.).  So the issue is not the tension, for me anyway.  I employed a heavy thumb nail a la flamenco, and nails on all fingers are essentially necessary (shoudn't have said picks only in the above--I meant picks or proficient nails).  I was able to execute a nice alapuza (sp?), although other rasqueados were not as effectual.  And due to the confined area, finger mobility to employ tremolo, and other techniqes of flamenco--for examle where the forefinger especially is the vehicle for capacious expression, is restricted.

Yes, with a wider string sapcing at the bridge, it seems perhaps viable to a degree.

I was wrong and journeybear was right.  My friend, you are kinda correct on thsi I feel.

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## Charles E.

Wayne Henderson is a fantastic fingerstyle mandolin player, in addition to being a great guitar player.

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## catmandu2

btw - one more observation this evening.. since getting inspired to play a little CFCGCF-tuned guitar -- the tuning I use for watermelon, i was playing some really nice Irish-style dadgad type stuff just now... i like it a lot.  if i knew how to operate my kid's phone/camera--much less upload-- i'd share with y'all..but i'm just learning to run her laptop..I'm so limited in this tech-world.

but man, this is a great tuning for some drone-modal work...that i haven't explored in years ... why i like cafe so much especially

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## catmandu2

sheeyoot.. i didn't even say what i intended to say when I logged on to this post--about the forefinger.  After playing this evening I forget how essential forefinger--both sides--is in so many blues, folk, and African playing styles on guitars and indigenous African instruments esp of Mali, Gambia, but I imagine too the whole continent.  I haven't studied the fingerstyle double courses of S. America yet--other than a dabbling with charango--but I imagine FF comes well into play in numerous styles throughout, as well..

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