# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  How to join a session?

## quietglow

I've been playing for a few months (with some background in other instruments), mostly learning fiddle tunes, mostly Irish (I have long loved Irish fiddle tunes). I've also been slowly starting to find local sessions and really having fun listening. It looks like lots of fun,  and I think before long I wouldn't mind finding a way to join in. The thing is, I have no clue how to approach it. 

What's the etiquette when it comes to joining in? Also, I have been to a few and have only see a mando once, and it was a fiddler crossing over for a song or two. Should I hunt for a session that has a regular mando player?

I'm in Chicago, btw, so I have the luxury of having quite a few sessions nearby.

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## Bertram Henze

Irish sessions are friendly in general. So there's several points:

- the instrument: what you play does not matter as long as you play it well and in a way that sounds Irish in a wider sense. Mandolins are not a problem (they are also not loud enough to bother others, as a rule)

- what to play: it's good to know many of the tunes. It's not awkward to sit out those you don't know. Somebody starts a set of tunes, i.e. he/she determines what the tunes in this set are, typically playing each one 3 or 4 times round (after 3 times the rest will watch out for what comes next). It's not appropriate behavior to hijack somebody else's set by starting a different tune in the middle of it. Who starts a set is the leader of that set; that role typically passes between persons on a chaotic basis.

- how to get in: saying hello, taking a seat at the perimeter of the circle (all depending on location) and playing along with known tunes; no BG antics, please (chopping, soloing)! Once you've become confident in the process, you can start your own sets; with a quiet instrument, however, this can be difficult in the presence of fiddles, boxes, pipes: you'll need an ally near you who recognizes your tune and picks it up with his/her louder instrument (or you can get a louder mandolin or even - ahem - a tenor banjo).

- sessions can be of very different character, and having the choice you'll probably gravitate towards one or the other. Some typical categories are:

1 Care Bears: friendly people who play slow and soft and who stare you to death should you play too fast or too loud; they only play tunesets they have collectively agreed on and practised together; they'll regard you with pity should you start an exotic unknown tune outside their repertoire.

2 Mad Max: A gang of superheroes who play their tunes rough, loud and at breakneck speed. If you start your set at a moderate tempo, they'll pick up on your tunes at their own tempo and leave you in the dust.

3 Emperor's Audience: One accomplished player presiding a convention of lesser underlings. He will tell you what to play and how to play it. You can earn his respect by being a very good player by his standards, but you cannot challenge his standards.

4 Frequent Travellers: Musicians who often play in different sessions and who can quickly adapt to other players' qualities to gain a good common result. Mundane and relaxed. You guessed it: that's what I prefer. YMMV.

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patty6363

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## quietglow

Thanks much. I did some reading over at thesession.org and lots of what I found there echoes your points here. Lots of the "rules" seem to really just be manners i.e. don't show up and immediately start hogging the session etc. I am definitely not going to be doing that. I figure my best bet is to find a session that has some obvious beginners (one that I have gone to often has young kids) and ask if I can record. Then maybe spend a few weeks trying to learn some of the more obvious tunes. And THEN ask if I can sit in a bit. Does that sound like a reasonable plan?

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## Bertram Henze

sounds good. Many celebrated players I have known started out that way.
Do not underestimate kids - the other week I played in a session and there was a 12yo with a recorder blowing half of them out of the water...

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## John Kelly

Very sound advice from Bertram here.  Just go, listen, absorb the atmosphere and then introduce yourself and your playing gradually.  Neither of us lives in the US, so it may well be that there are "rules" in Chicago that we are unaware of, but musicians are generally very willing to share their music with each other and to encourage newcomers into the circle. 

Re the young folk - some of the best players at sessions are often the young ones who have a dexterity we older ones can pretend we once had many years ago!  And there are no age limits in the sessions I have attended and still attend; all are equally welcome and it is the music that speaks for us all.

Let us know how you get on when you start to get involved.

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## quietglow

Yeah I meant to qualify the young player comment of mine: the last time I visited, a girl who was likely 12 did a solo tune that genuinely breathtaking. I definitely don't underestimate the power of youth!

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## Randi Gormley

What has worked for me is to arrive slightly early, while the earliest session regulars are arriving, and approach one (or the group) as they're organizing the chairs or whatever. That way, you're not interrupting a session in progress. You can ask to record, or ask if you can sit in. If there's designated seating (and I've been to places where there is), you take whatever seat you're assigned, even if its across the hallway, with good grace. If there's no designated seating, ask if anybody has a preference where you sit. This is their session, it's best to approach as friendly but not pushy. Don't expect to start a set until they specifically ask you. If you don't know a tune, put your instrument down. Take a sip of whatever drink you have. Bring the instrument back up only if you know the tune (or are a good enough ear-learner to pick it up the second time around or so).

I've never had a problem having a mandolin in the half-dozen sessions I've visited, but I also play fiddle tunes exclusively. I wouldn't know how to back someone, I'm not particularly conversant with the "chop" and the most soloing I've done is to start a tune nobody else knows, in which case I play it through once and stop. ITM is group music. The idea is to follow what the group does.

Bertram, I love your definitions!

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patty6363

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

I can't stress Bertram's point enough: no chopping or counter-melody improvising. The rest, is just common courtesy like they said. Oh and remember to have fun.

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## quietglow

Yeah I should be clear: particularly as I'm a new player, my tendency is going to be trying to remain as inconspicuous as possible. Like, I am somewhat frightened by the prospect that someone might ask me to lead a set etc. I definitely won't be chopping or trying to improvise. I am sure that someday I might be concerned that the mando is so soft that it vanishes into the fiddles and accordions, but right now that seems like a blessing to me.

Randi, thanks for the excellent suggestion about showing up early to ask about recording. I was thinking about asking last week, but there never seemed to be a good time to ask (I arrived maybe 10 min after they'd started).

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patty6363

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## Mark Wilson

If you find yourself just observing ask if they will call out the song and key it's played.  If you have a smart phone with a metronome app - tap out the beat to see how fast they play the tune.

Then you have a list of songs with typical playing speeds. Perfect for home practice getting started.

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patty6363

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## Bertram Henze

> I love your definitions!


I've seen every one of those (and a few more), and I am not the only one, apparently.  :Wink:

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## Bren

As an ancient but frequent traveller and visitor to many strange sessions, I think Bertram's summarised it pretty well.

Here are some additional tips for venturing out at first:

If possible, find a playing partner that you can practise at home with and maybe go to sessions together. That really makes it easier.


Put new strings on a couple of days before going to session to let them settle in and have your mando sounding its best.

Arrive early and introduce yourself as a beginner or newbie while things are quiet and there's time and space to talk. That really breaks the ice. 

Buy a drink, not necessarily alcoholic, even if they're free to musicians, so at least the staff are on your side. (In fact don't take any alcohol until you've played a couple of tunes, even if you plan to have a pint at some point). It's embarrassing seeing people coming to sessions in pubs and not buying drinks and it breeds staff resentment toward the session. 

A seat backing onto a wooden wall is usually better for mandolin resonance - at the other extreme soft furnishings in the middle of a crowded room will make your sound disappear. That might seem a blessing but you at least want to be able to hear yourself.

Then again, if you choose the best seats, you might find yourself competing with established regulars!
if you don't know any of the tunes, relax and enjoy the music.

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## stevenmando

One mistake that I made , I was trying to find a group in the city that I was living and I found this nice group of people and I went over to their house , they had a set book of tunes that they played and even though I'm not a fast or fantastic player they blew me out of the water , but this was what they had been playing for a long time but I explained that I was never in a group and wanted to learn to play in a group , and it was my mistake, I should have found people that were in the same space I was in , and it made me put the mandolin down for a while and I love the mandolin, so there is a fine line when finding a group and having group members that are excepting of new people ,some are not but most are but I know now that when a group advertises for new member and they say experienced and non experienced those groups are wanting people to learn to enjoy the mandolin as they do, but a bad experience is hurtful but it should not be a hindrance to wanting to join in , after that I found people that just wanted to play and learn and years later I am still learning .

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patty6363

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## Bren

Steven just reminded me of something else.  

Remember to breathe.

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## stevenmando

Thanks , I was only sharing my experience and if you deem it to ridicule then thanks and I will post no more

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## PhilO

Please understand that my limited  experiences may be only anecdotal, and my only two Irish sessions experiences have been in North Conway, NH and Anchorage, Ak.  Both were EXTREMELY unwelcoming.  My skill level was certainly at the point where I could have contributed at
least few proper tunes, but I was never even given the opportunity.  In North Conway, I asked the anointed "leader" if he could at least tell me what key the tune was in.  His reply...."My wife has the keys....".
Needless to say, I have never returned.
On the other hand, after being VERY welcomed at two different "open" jams in Bozeman, Montana, I took it upon myself to start a jam...session.....call it what you may...definitely NOT Irish....upon my return to North Conway, my home. A busy day for us is 15 musicians....fiddle tunes and singing....a slow day is 7...and we are now into our 4th year. Just sayin'.....

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## Mark Wilson

> I took it upon myself to start a jam...session.....call it what you may...definitely NOT Irish....upon my return to North Conway, my home. A busy day for us is 15 musicians....fiddle tunes and singing....a slow day is 7...and we are now into our 4th year. Just sayin'.....


Good on you!  I'd like to do the same.

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## foldedpath

> Please understand that my limited  experiences may be only anecdotal, and my only two Irish sessions experiences have been in North Conway, NH and Anchorage, Ak.  Both were EXTREMELY unwelcoming.  My skill level was certainly at the point where I could have contributed at
> least few proper tunes, but I was never even given the opportunity.  In North Conway, I asked the anointed "leader" if he could at least tell me what key the tune was in.  His reply...."My wife has the keys....".
> Needless to say, I have never returned.


I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the two Irish sessions you attended, but please understand that there are thousands of Irish sessions out there in the world. There is no such thing as the "Irish session experience" because they're all different.

If there is only a single Irish session within hundreds of miles, especially here in the USA, I can guarantee they're going to be more protective of what they're playing, so they're not overtaken by guitarists who want a Grateful Dead jam. Areas with more Irish sessions to choose from are usually more relaxed, and less defensive. That's been my experience, anyway.




> On the other hand, after being VERY welcomed at two different "open" jams in Bozeman, Montana, I took it upon myself to start a jam...session.....call it what you may...definitely NOT Irish....upon my return to North Conway, my home. A busy day for us is 15 musicians....fiddle tunes and singing....a slow day is 7...and we are now into our 4th year. Just sayin'.....


That paragraph is suggesting that non-Irish jams are more welcoming, which has not been my experience. 

Anyone who has taken the time to learn at least a few of the common repertoire tunes, and is willing to sit on their hands (or whip out a recorder) to learn what a session likes to play, instead of feeling they have to play on every single tune, whether they know it or not... is always welcome. 

Just sayin'.... :Wink:

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## Bertram Henze

> Both were EXTREMELY unwelcoming.


Depends on what you expect. Welcoming does not mean you're hailed like a long-lost friend - upon turning up the first time you're bound to be the _stranger in town_, and every session is wary of those. Welcomes must be earned in Irish music, by modesty and by showing you can feel the music.




> I asked the anointed "leader" if he could at least tell me what key the tune was in.  His reply...."My wife has the keys....".


Uh-oh, you've asked The Question. Irish musicians fall into two categories regarding keys:

1 - most just memorize the melody of a tune and never know what key it is; some might have seen sheet music of it once, but they tend to forget that quickly later. And the melody is all you need to know for playing the melody. Harmonic concepts like keys and chords are an a-posteriori concept in Irish music, ignored by most and despised by some.

2 - those with some music theory background may know an answer, but they also suspect the reason for the question: a standard chord progression to be derived from the key for accompaniment, which almost never works in Irish music (other than BG/OT). They also suspect that the correct answer may cause more confusion, like "A mixo" (those who actually say that may have a camera ready for their Collection of Impossible Faces). Some tunes contain more than one key, some are ambiguous and could be noted in different keys without ever using accidentals. The truth is, the answer to that question is not likely to be helpful - if you can't hear what they are playing within a few measures, you are not supposed to play along for safety reasons (safety of the music, that is).

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## Colin Lindsay

> Depends on what you expect. Welcoming does not mean you're hailed like a long-lost friend - upon turning up the first time you're bound to be the _stranger in town_, and every session is wary of those. Welcomes must be earned in Irish music, by modesty and by showing you can feel the music.


I had to make a quick sideways shuffle to 'The Session' website to see how many of these are duplicate posts of the same amazingly long thread on that website…. which is one of the reasons I left it long ago.  :Grin:  What finally did it for me was the thread where someone announced that "he asks new players to play the rhythm of a slip-jig and if they don’t know he shows them the door"...
There are different kinds of sessions: formal ‘round the table’ kinds where each person performs in turn; classes where people come to be taught techniques and tunes, or informal play-with-a-pint kinds where almost anything goes.
I’ve been invited to sessions where there is definitely etiquette: don’t show off, don’t dominate the proceedings and wait until you’re invited to join in or play a piece. As Bertram says, you’re an unknown quantity until you prove otherwise, but this doesn’t mean showing you’re better or faster than everyone else. Watch and learn, and when the time is right - contribute. Strike a balance between showing what you can do, and showing off. They’re not all better players than you are and just because they seem to play amazingly well every session doesn’t mean that they’re brilliant players - just that they’ve practiced the same songs a lot. However: there are also informal sessions where anyone can attend and play; a great place to meet likeminded musicians and you’ll find little groups splitting away to dark corners where they can thrash out a few tunes of their preference. Definitely my favourites.

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## Isaac Revard

Any jam "session" that takes longer than 1-2 simple sentences to describe its "etiquette" is something to stay away from. Be polite and ask questions and well help you to understand the rest...should about cover it.

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## PhilO

In all due respect, I had stated that I was never even given the opportunity with any of the "common repertoire" tunes that I can play at speed.

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## Bren

> Thanks , I was only sharing my experience and if you deem it to ridicule then thanks and I will post no more


Sorry Steve, I didn't mean it that way. I get very tense sometimes entering strange sessions and helps to remember to breathe, relax, get in the mood etc. I am trying to share my experience too.

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## Bren

> In all due respect, I had stated that I was never even given the opportunity with any of the "common repertoire" tunes that I can play at speed.


I've definitely been in that situation too. You get sessions like that but they're in the minority among those I've encountered.

Sometimes I just wait for a break (sometimes there isn't a break!) and approach them and ask if I can play a couple of tunes. Sometimes folk will listen, sometimes they'll join in, sometimes they'll talk over the top, sometimes they'll all get up and go to the bar/outside for a smoke/fiddle with their phones. I've grown a pretty thick skin about it all.

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## journeybear

It seems that one of the themes running through the comments here is acceptance. Entering into a new social situation may be best achieved by ingratiating oneself to those already members of it. You want to be seen as being worthy of inclusion, of having something to contribute, of fitting in, perhaps moreover improving the session by your inclusion. To that end, perhaps the best way to join a session is to kill the banjo player. That may be a bit extreme; breaking his fingers may be enough. It would be wise to suss out the members' views on this first, by observation or inquiry, to determine the majority opinion regarding a permanent solution to what may be a temporary problem. You'll want to make sure you have support of most if not all the other members before entering into such action. If most of them are OK with the banjo player(s), you should relax, even relax your attitude, and be accepting of the instrument and player(s), or just move on. That might be the best approach, after all.  :Whistling:

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## James Rankine

Attending a session for the first time is a daunting experience, but to the regulars you are just another new face- folk come and go all the time, some even stick around. In an ideal world these regulars would remember what it was like when they first started out and be sensitive to the needs of the frightened newbie but as we don't live in an ideal world I think Bren's advice to develop a thick skin is sound advice. And don't give up!

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## Bertram Henze

Of course, locked-up societies do exist in every field, not just Irish and not just music. I have walked away from such kind myself. However, I've always given them a second chance and a third.
But then, I always really wanted to play at all costs, and if there is some genuine hostility to bust, then that's what it takes, and I'm game. YMMV.

I found that if I hang around with the very pleasant people only
- I am pretty lonely,
- I learn nothing new.

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## Bren

> o that end, perhaps the best way to join a session is to kill the banjo player.


There's always that. In reality, the mandolin's worst enemy in a session is probably a mass of drums and guitars. They can make your sounds disappear.

And what Bertram said. Musicians can sometimes be sadly lacking in social graces. Don't take it personally.

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## Randi Gormley

Or kill the spoons player. Unless it's their session.

I wonder if there's a list of player types, as there is a list of sessions types ... I've certainly played with some very nice people who come to sit in and some really terrible egomaniacs who want to impress us all with their ability, real or no. And lots of people in between. I think someone mentioned expectations -- I've never tried to fit into a bluegrass jam but I have sat in an OT gathering and the feel was completely different from an ITM session. Quite a few of the musicians had music stands and books so I could at least follow along (luckily I'm a pretty good sight-reader). Something like that is rare in ITM sessions except the beginner ones. When I first went to a session, I knew maybe 2 tunes out of every 20 or 30. It was frustrating at best, but once I decided it was as interesting to hear the music as play it, I was able to keep my annoyance under control. One thing that does drive me nuts is someone who can't abide to take a rest. If the leaders are chatting, the best response is to wait them out. I've known too many people who can't bear to do that, they start up a tune as if the point of a session is to play non-stop music, rather than hang around and have a good time.

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## Bertram Henze

...and then there is the technique of ambiguous banter (or not); some musicians have developed mastership in never committing to a true meaning of what they say. You have just played your best (and well in your perception) and they say "go practice at home" or "a nice set" or "great stuff" and you'll never find out what they really think. They do that in order to appear witty in front of their peers (who don't know the meaning either but will never admit to the fact - it's an emperor's new clothes thing). 
I have come to ignore any such comments and trust my own ears instead. If you want to know how well you play, there is nothing like a recording. Have a private session with your true friends, the microphone and the metronome, every now and then.

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## Dagger Gordon

> ...and then there is the technique of ambiguous banter (or not); some musicians have developed mastership in never committing to a true meaning of what they say. You have just played your best (and well in your perception) and they say "go practice at home" or "a nice set" or "great stuff" and you'll never find out what they really think. They do that in order to appear witty in front of their peers (who don't know the meaning either but will never admit to the fact - it's an emperor's new clothes thing). 
> I have come to ignore any such comments and trust my own ears instead. If you want to know how well you play, there is nothing like a recording. Have a private session with your true friends, the microphone and the metronome, every now and then.


It's not necessarily trying to be witty, Bertram.

Certainly in Scotland, if you were to say 'That's not bad', what you may well mean is that's really pretty good. As always, context is everything. It's not just music, of course. If you were looking at an outstanding bull, you might well hear someone say 'That's not a bad beast'!

It reminds me of a bit of patter Colum Sands said at a gig once (and I know you won't take this personally, Bertram) that if you say 'No' to an offer of a cup of tea in Germany, then you don't get one!  
In Ireland no doubt there would be a further bit of craic on the lines of 'Are you sure?', 'Och all right then' and you would get one.

It's just the way they speak. There is obviously a backdrop of not wanting to put the host to too much bother etc, so the first 'No' is in fact a form of politeness.  A lot of ambiguous banter can be on similar lines.

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## Bertram Henze

> It reminds me of a bit of patter Colum Sands said at a gig once (and I know you won't take this personally, Bertram) that if you say 'No' to an offer of a cup of tea in Germany, then you don't get one!  
> In Ireland no doubt there would be a further bit of craic on the lines of 'Are you sure?', 'Och all right then' and you would get one.


I know this piece of protocol, and others like that. That is standard (i.e. once you understand how it works you understand it every time) and not the kind of ambiguity I meant. What I meant are ever changing personal protocols of single persons who make it a sport to be enigmatic. With that, they attract the fascination of people who want to understand and be understood.

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## Dagger Gordon

Yeah I know what you mean, but luckily don't seem to encounter it too much actually.

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## quietglow

Thanks for all the thoughts -- this has been super informative for me.

So I visited the group again last Thursday, though traffic was bad and I didn't get there in time to catch the people setting up. There were even more kids this time than the last few. I didn't count, but I'd guess there were more people sub-15 years old than adults. There was a banjo player this time, though she was a wee lass so I probably ought not to break her fingers to gain a spot in the circle. I spent a chunk of the the 2 hrs I was there (too much in fact) chatting with the mother of one of the kids whose brother was also playing. She made it clear that the group loves beginners (as long as you learn the tunes), so I'll ask if I can record next week.

They played lots of the same tunes as the weeks before, but I only know a couple of them, so I have some learning to do.

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## Beanzy

Don't forget there's a strand of humour in Ireland that is robust to say the least. It can sound downright cruel and even nasty.
It's actually a whole other sport in itself.

So you'll tell someone who's just played a blinder "could you not play us one you know?" or you might say "you know I reckon that'll come on great with a bit o' practice" or maybe if you're really trying to make them feel welcome "that must be very hard to play, just goin by how hard it was to listen to.". It's not for real and yo'd get a puck in the jaw if you said it outside a pub or night out with the gang. The expectation is that you'll come back with something even 'better' so to the last one you might say "yea but your wife said she'd teach me your version next time I'm 'round". It's meant to be over the top outrageous and it's understood it's all rubbish banter to get a rise out of the other.

I'm always struck by how courteous jamming is in other places and it's one of the real attractions of jamming for me, as the continual egging on and reaction seeking wears very thin for me after a while. I'd imaging in America where courtesy is very much expected in social interaction that the Irish banter could kick something off if just dropped in undiluted into the wrong situation.

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journeybear

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## Dagger Gordon

Some years ago I was honoured to be asked to do one of the Mandolin Cafe interviews.  The very first question (by Dan Beimborn) was in relation to sessions.  This is what I said at the time:

"Dan Beimborn: We've had some spirited discussions recently on the message boards relating to playing in sessions. What do you think makes for an ideal session?

Dagger Gordon: I think you probably need a common stock of tunes which everybody involved knows and is happy to play. And within this, there should be scope for people to throw in some current favorites of theirs which they think people might like. It's best to avoid tunes you've written yourself which nobody will know (unless perhaps they've been requested).

The repertoire of a session can vary a lot. Sometimes it can be quite Irish and at other times it may be dominated by Scottish bagpipe tunes. A good mix is probably best.

Dan Beimborn: What are the social considerations needed for a session to thrive?

Dagger Gordon: With regards to social considerations, good manners and courtesy are as important in a session situation as any other. If someone is obviously quite new to it, they should be encouraged to join in. At the same time, if you find a situation where a number of top players are involved, it is good to enjoy the moment and let them go for it, joining in where you can."

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## Bertram Henze

> Don't forget there's a strand of humour in Ireland that is robust to say the least. It can sound downright cruel and even nasty.
> It's actually a whole other sport in itself.


Once you've seen a game of hurling you get the picture. Only the fittest survive. Somebody mentioned a thick skin...

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## foldedpath

From a link recently on thesession.org, here's a an Irish TV episode of "Coppers and Brass" where the whole episode is on the subject of session etiquette:

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Beanzy, 

Bertram Henze, 

John Kelly

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## Bertram Henze

The keyword from that video that sticks in my head is "gentlemen's agreement". Being a gentleman is independent from your ability to play tunes, but it determines the direction you go. A gentleman will always be on his way towards a pleasant session and towards becoming a better player; he who is not is walking in circles around himself, getting nowhere, even if he's a wizard of technique.

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## Bren

My favourite bit of session humour is with certain Shetland folk. You master something tricky and just about pull it off and they look at you suspiciously and go "Du's bin practisin'!"

It all comes across as cliquey though if you start speaking to a nervous newcomer like that.

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## Colin Lindsay

And if youre ever invited to a new session and you walk through the door, and theyre ALL banjo players - its a trap. RUN!

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## Bertram Henze

In the meantime, I have re-read most of the threads on thesession.org on this topic, and also the discussion about Seamus Tansey's "famous" letter to Sharon Langston. Although much of that is up to 10 years old, it's no less interesting. Apart from manners, it raises the question what this "traditional music" thing really is.

So, I have reviewed some of the videos that exist about the cornerstone demigods of Irish tradition, often referred to by traditional players and tradition police  - if you compare that with today's standards of session playing, you wonder what the rules are supposed to be, if there are any, because many of those hallmark players wouldn't survive if they walked into a modern session today. Example: this video of whistler Jim Donoghue and his son Seamus, playing the bodhran: if you play the bodhran this way today you'll last approx. 10 minutes, then you're toast (I have seen it happen). This tradition thing is obviously undergoing violent changes over time.

Bottom line: normal human manners, open flexibility towards the preferences of others and courage to stand for your own will blaze your trail through a session, as through life.

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## Dagger Gordon

Watched that video Bertram.

I thought the whistle playing was grand, but clearly the bodhran is far too loud. I thought the timing was OK, though.

I suppose context is everything. This was recorded before the Bothy Band, for example,and I think the music has become more sophisticated.  
I also don't know anything about the guy's background. For all I know, he may usually have played drums in a ceili band who didn't use a PA system and people perhaps liked the drums to be loud to keep everyone in time, so that's what he was used to.

Certainly though he would not fit in at many sessions today.

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## foldedpath

Here's another bodhran that wouldn't fit into many sessions today, not for lack of playing skill but for the tambourine jingles! And yet, this is a famous and well-loved video clip of Joe Cooley playing box in 1973, a month before he died, and accompanied by his brother Jack on the bodhran/tambourine. At one time, this was an accepted sound for bodhran:





Also note the tenor banjo, which at that time would have been much more common than mandolin. Although mandolin does have a history in Irish trad that goes back at least to the 1920's-1930s in Ireland, from sources I've read. Anyway, it's probably not a good idea to bring a tambourine to the local session these days...

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## Bertram Henze

> Anyway, it's probably not a good idea to bring a tambourine to the local session these days...


I know this video, and yes it is very famous. At least that tambourine is not loud enough to be a serious disturbance, giving 100% airtime to Joe Cooley. And the audience doesn't seem to be bothered by it at all.
I guess these are examples of a time when people didn't have much to spend for instruments and had to make do with what was available. And I suspect the nostalgia of this is what a shrinking circle of musicians still perceive as the true tradition.

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## Beanzy

And the schoolmam piano playing accompanying the ceilidh bands too. However these weren't necessarily present or wanted before the priests nearly killed it all off by pushing through over-zealous implementation of the 1934 Public Dance Halls Bill. We weren't much of a traditional music family in Dublin, but I still remember my grandfather from Kerry moaning how it had all just become a din and wailing once the dance halls 'started' (I take this to mean after the act came in). The newer attempts to leapfrog over the trough are a worthwhile attempt to look beyond the wreckage of what was left, by digging into the sources still available then. How accurate they are is a bit like any archaeological reconstruction and will likely be subject to as much revision and counter-revision as we go forward.

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## Mike Anderson

> Watched that video Bertram.
> 
> I thought the whistle playing was grand, but clearly the bodhran is far too loud. I thought the timing was OK, though.
> 
> I suppose context is everything. This was recorded before the Bothy Band, for example,and I think the music has become more sophisticated.  
> I also don't know anything about the guy's background. For all I know, he may usually have played drums in a ceili band who didn't use a PA system and people perhaps liked the drums to be loud to keep everyone in time, so that's what he was used to.
> 
> Certainly though he would not fit in at many sessions today.


Dagger, this is actually a very old traditional style. You can see he's only using one end of the tipper, and the end he's holding likely has a thong around one of his fingers. Still practiced by a very few older players from what I've been told. 

Interestingly, the style has been preserved intact in a small region of Quebec where a number of Irish immigrants settled as early as the 1830s: http://www.tamboursdeportneuf.qc.ca/spip.php?rubrique19.

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## journeybear

I'm sure there was a time when playing mandolin in ITM was a radical departure from tradition.  :Disbelief: 

Perhaps to some it still is!

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## Eddie Sheehy

> I'm sure there was a time when playing mandolin in ITM was a radical departure from tradition. 
> 
> Perhaps to some it still is!


I'd never seen a mandolin a traditional setting before 1970 - and then it was only in the "new" trad bands - Planxty ey al.  The Wolfe Tones - which was a Ballad Group, used mandolin the 60's.   You can see mandolins in trad settings today, but you can't hear them.  The Tenor Banjo is still king.

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journeybear

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## foldedpath

> I'd never seen a mandolin a traditional setting before 1970 - and then it was only in the "new" trad bands - Planxty ey al.  The Wolfe Tones - which was a Ballad Group, used mandolin the 60's.   You can see mandolins in trad settings today, but you can't hear them.  The Tenor Banjo is still king.


There are hints of mandolins in the tradition from much further back than the 60's revival, but it was still probably a fringe instrument, played mostly solo in kitchen or parlor settings. The main source I'm aware of is from the Chieftain's "official" biography, concerning fiddler Martin Fay's early years, which I think I've quoted here before:

_"As a young boy Martin remembers hearing his uncle Andy Kelly, who was a famous mandolin player in traditional circles. But the music didnt impress the young boy any more than the other kinds of music he was hearing at the time."_
Since Martin Fay was born in 1936 (raised in Dublin) and this Uncle already had a reputation when he was a boy, it suggests the mandolin was used in Irish trad at least as far back as the 1930s and maybe the 1920s. And apparently there actually was such a thing as a "famous mandolin player" in traditional circles at the time, which is interesting. I've looked for references to an Andy Kelly mandolin player in that period, but nothing else has surfaced. 

So it appears it was considered an appropriate instrument for Irish trad as far back as the 1920's, and then there was a period where not much was heard about them until the 60's folk revival. Amplification for stage performance was probably what allowed mandolin to get a foot back in the door, at least in a small way.

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journeybear

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## Bren

I went to a session as a stranger last night and I was thinking: how would it have gone if I was in quietglow's (the originator of this thread) shoes?

After all, I've done this a hundred times and still I felt nervous walking into a room of strangers who all seemed to know each other. I just sat and sipped my drink and listened for a bit.

In the end I asked the mandolin player about his instrument and we ended up having a nice few tunes. The people were friendly and I think would have been the same to anyone at any level who asked if they could play a tune. Just pick something you're fairly sure they would know and they'll probably join in.

With all eyes on you, you might stumble a bit. I know I do and I've been doing it for years. Carry on as steadily as you can and it will get better.

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## Colin Lindsay

> There are hints of mandolins in the tradition from much further back than the 60's revival
> 
> 
>  And apparently there actually was such a thing as a "famous mandolin player" in traditional circles at the time, which is interesting. 
> So it appears it was considered an appropriate instrument for Irish trad as far back as the 1920's, and then there was a period where not much was heard about them until the 60's folk revival.


Mandolins were here (Northern Ireland) from at least the 1940s, when Italian Prisoners of War made and played them, and sold them, and in many cases married locals thereby bringing them into popular culture. My mother remembers Italians playing mandolins at Christmas concerts. There was always an Italian / Irish connection throughout the 20th century in many parts of Ireland; visiting sailors and immigrants brought their instruments with them, and Irish sailors brought mandolins and indeed other instruments back from other countries. Money was tight and people played whatever instruments they found in their homes or could buy. Pianos and organs for example were played as many churches had one, but rarely for traditional music; harps too were the preserve of the wealthy. There were strange instruments circulating the country for many years, played in small villages and country sessions where the cameras never went, but Ive been told about one man playing a drum he brought back from Africa. Well he brought the djembe to Ireland, you know  :Smile:

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journeybear

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## Bertram Henze

Here's an example of how not to join a session...  :Coffee:

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journeybear

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## quietglow

So I went back to the session I have been stalking last night. This was my third or fourth time. This time I got there plenty early, and only one of the regulars, a guy maybe in his 70s, was where the players sit. I ordered a beer and went over, and pulled up a stool next to him. Our conversation went something like this. 

"Hello, my name is Joe. I've been coming for a few weeks to watch. Is the session open for people to join?" I figured I'd better start off with the obvious question.
"Of course it is." I don't know why I didn't expect an Irish accent, but he had one. "What did you say your name is again?"
"Joe, I play the mandolin, and I only know a few of the tunes you all play but I'll definitely learn them as I can."
"No, I got the Joe part, what's your last name."
"Kallo. I'm not Irish, but my wife is." I pointed over at her. "She's a Kelly." 
"Well good for her," he said smiling, "and we'll try not to hold it against you."

After that it was all swell. He told me to just bring my mando and sit in the circle the next time. I asked him if I should record and he said they'd just tell me the names of the songs if I didn't know them. 

And that, I suppose, is how you join a session!

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journeybear

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## Dagger Gordon

> And that, I suppose, is how you join a session!


I suppose it is!   I'm glad you're happy.  Good stuff.

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## JeffD

Good conclusion. Problem solved by being yourself.

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## foldedpath

> There were strange instruments circulating the country for many years, played in small villages and country sessions where the cameras never went, but Ive been told about one man playing a drum he brought back from Africa. Well he brought the djembe to Ireland, you know


So that's how the djembe got its foot in the session door. Probably the same dude that brought back a Cajón from a South American trip. That man has a lot to answer for!
 :Wink:

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## Bertram Henze

> Probably the same dude that brought back a Cajón from a South American trip. That man has a lot to answer for!


Absolutely.

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## patty6363

Thanks to all of you who posted in this thread.  I was wondering how to go about getting into a session (to the point I had considered just pulling 1 together myself & seeing who showed up if I posted an invite in my area).  Sounds like there needs to be more "formality" in planning; not just some people getting together to play.  That's helpful as I do want to gain experience by watching/learning from others.  I never realized that there was method to the seemingly "casual" gathering...now I know.

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## journeybear

> Here's an example of how not to join a session...


Nicely done!  :Laughing:

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## foldedpath

> Thanks to all of you who posted in this thread.  I was wondering how to go about getting into a session (to the point I had considered just pulling 1 together myself & seeing who showed up if I posted an invite in my area).  Sounds like there needs to be more "formality" in planning; not just some people getting together to play.  That's helpful as I do want to gain experience by watching/learning from others.  I never realized that there was method to the seemingly "casual" gathering...now I know.


Not every Irish session is an open pub session in a commercial venue. If you know a few people in your area with similar interests in The Music who want to hang out and play, you can just invite them over for a "kitchen session" at your house. 

My fiddler S.O. and I have done that in our home, gathering a few people together at roughly our skill level, and it can be great fun! We had some success with that earlier this year, but then everyone (except us) left town for the summer. 
 :Frown: 

We'll probably crank it up again when everyone comes back to town for the Wet & Dark season. 

Of course, the reason to do this at an outside venue like a local pub, is that nobody has to clean up the dishes afterwards. Or make the venue available on a regular basis in their homes. Pub sessions can be more self-sustaining that way.

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patty6363

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## Bertram Henze

> And that, I suppose, is how you join a session!


Definitely.

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## Beanzy

Just by way of observation from recent experience, in case it helps anyone; Myself and another mandolin playing friend do that house session thing every second week. It is a great opportunity to really get on top of some tunes and we get to experiment with swapping instruments to get the best out of different types of tune and song. We alternate between him on guitar, mandolin, whistles or pipes and me on mandolin, fiddle, tenor guitar, mandoloncello or cello and whistles. As well as making use of my sons fiddling abilities, we recently brought in another guitar and whistle player and are reworking many tunes to make sure they remain trad rather than morphing into some Celtic mishmash that can happen if you don't get the balance of instrument and emphasis correct. (getting him to listen to loads of Hayes/Cahill playing) 
While it was only intended to knock the edges off our playing, it is teaching us valuable lessons in how easily an Irish traditional sound can be derailed by incorporating new instruments in the wrong way. Apart from the bowl back mandolins, the tenor guitar has been one of the easiest to get right from the start, possibly due to the more spare chords and the ability to sound very harp-like when picking out tunes and the lack of low end boom is a real bonus in the small bodied tenor. 
Anyway with atypical instruments it really does pay off to "do yer practisin' a' home" to make sure you know when your instrument will add something and how to alter it if another similar instrument comes along. Sometimes the best way to incorporate your chosen instrument could be to take the whistle out of the pouch instead.

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## quietglow

I forgot to thank everyone for a very interesting discussion. I've learned a ton. Many thanks everyone.

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## Bren

Glad it went well for you. It usually does.

Sometimes it doesn't, but there's not much you can do about that.

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## Bertram Henze

It is frequently overlooked: instrument choice and don't forget to thank your luthier. Your instrument is your most faithful friend in any session. I have been significantly more often complimented for the sound of my OM than for my playing, so I guess Roger Bucknall's work carried me through many difficult situations.

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## Bren

> It is frequently overlooked: instrument choice and don't forget to thank your luthier. Your instrument is your most faithful friend in any session. I have been significantly more often complimented for the sound of my OM than for my playing, so I guess Roger Bucknall's work carried me through many difficult situations.


That's sometimes a way of people praising your playing indirectly: " nice instrument" " nice tune" etc.

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