# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  I'm Shocked by How People Hold Their Mandolins

## JonZ

We have had a surge of mandolin players at my local jam, and I am shocked (shocked I tell you!) by how haphazardly they hold their instruments. Generally, the strap is slung over one shoulder and they are slumped back in a chair, so their left hand is required to provide all of the support for the instrument. Naturally, this inhibits their ability to move their left hand.

What's the deal? If you learn to play golf, the first thing you learn is how to hold the club. Why are people so careless about this aspect of technique? Is my jam an anomaly, or is this common?

Let's not get off onto all of the famous people who play with the strap over one shoulder (and therefore that must be the right way to do it). They play standing, so it is not quite the same thing. This is not a question about the "best" way to hold the instrument; it is a question about general carelessness in holding the instrument.

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## 250sc

Why do you care what others do??????

If it works for you....do it.

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## AlanN

Yep.

Just goes to show, there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. Some pickers hold it low - Bobby Clark; some high - Buzz Busby; some play with no strap - Red Rector.

Find your voice.

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## sgarrity

I play with the strap over one shoulder because I like the way it positions the mando.  On guitar and octave mando I play with the strap over my head on my left shoulder, of course those are bigger, heavier instruments.

FWIW, Mike Marshall is a stickler for good posture and proper positioning of the instrument.  It certainly works for him!

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## JonZ

> Why do you care what others do??????
> 
> If it works for you....do it.


I'm not sure why, but it bothers me to see someone do something that is counter to their apparent goal. In this case what they are doing does not appear to be working for them.

You apparently care about why I am asking this question, so you might want to pose your own question to yourself.

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## JonZ

Sgarity--this is not about where the strap should go. That is a whole other can of worms. These folks aren't really using the strap to support the instrument. The strap is just sort of there.

Funny thing about Marshall. He _is_ a stickler about how to hold the instrument. But his technique is very idiosyncratic: slouching over and pinching the mandolin between chest and lap. This is a good example of "works for him". He certainly holds the mandolin in a manner that allows his hands to move freely, but I think there are probably a lot of people who would develop back problems trying to maintain that posture.

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## 250sc

LOL. Ok, you better make sure you set them straight and show them the "correct way" so you won't be so shocked. It is very inconciderate for them to shock you that way. 

You asked "Why are people so careless about this aspect of technique?"

Did you really expect an answer that has any value?

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## Mike Bunting

Hey Jonz, have you got your McClanahan yet, are you going to post a video to show it and its sound ?

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## John Rosett

> Sgarity--this is not about where the strap should go. That is a whole other can of worms. These folks aren't really using the strap to support the instrument. The strap is just sort of there.
> 
> Funny thing about Marshall. He _is_ a stickler about how to hold the instrument. But his technique is very idiosyncratic: slouching over and pinching the mandolin between chest and lap. This is a good example of "works for him". He certainly holds the mandolin in a manner that allows his hands to move freely, but I think there are probably a lot of people who would develop back problems trying to maintain that posture.


Yeah, it makes my back hurt just watching Mike play, but I can't argue with the results!

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## JonZ

250sc--You are asking a lot of questions about my behavior for someone who doesn't care about what other people do.

I don't know that there is any one correct way, but I think that one attribute of holding an instrument correctly would be that it allows your hand to move freely.

I never know what to expect as far as people's answers. There are some smart people on the Café (Y'all raise your hands). It is curious to me that in so many other endeavors one starts by learning how to hold the tool/weapon/implement/instrument correctly. (If "correctly" is to strong of a term, substitute "effectively".) Yet I see so many mandolin players who appear to be giving this no thought at all.

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## JonZ

> Hey Jonz, have you got your McClanahan yet, are you going to post a video to show it and its sound ?


Yes, I got it in January. It is exactly what I had hoped for. McClanahan has some video on his website that is better than anything I could produce. I wanted a mandolin that looked and sounded like the one on his site, and that's what I got. So go check him out.

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## AlanN

> one attribute of holding an instrument correctly would be that it allows your hand to move freely.


This is crucial, imo. In 'olden times', you would see pickers strap their F-5 via the headstock. I don't do it that way, but it does have the huge benefit of, once you hold your arms straight out from your sides, the mandolin literally does not move, neck does not dip. I actually think Evan Marshall straps his that way today. Likely for precisely for the reason I quoted.

I think the same idea drives Grisman to use his Dawg leash. He used to do the one shoulder way. There is benefit to not having to support the neck, so that you can move the hand very freely. Now, Red was the man - his right forearm was the point that 'held' the mandolin, so his left was free to get all that mando goodness.

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## catmandu2

Frankly, in the digital age there is no reason for anyone to adopt poor technique (technique that is less than optimal ergonomically).  Of course, there is the matter of style, but hopefully folks aren't compelled by visual appearance to the point of sacrificing technique.

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## Jill McAuley

One of the first things I noticed when I started playing the mandolin (and the tenor banjo for that matter) was just how important attention to posture and position was - as a long time guitar player I never really gave much thought to any of that and it really was a case of what I was doing "working for me" with that instrument, but I never fail to be amazed at all the subtle effects of posture, left arm/hand position, right arm/hand position on my mandolin playing. Not just effects on my ability to play, or get a good sound out of the instrument, but also the ability to play and not trigger pain or discomfort due to less than ideal posture/position. Just my tuppence worth..

Cheers,
Jill

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## Dan Margolis

I prefer a two-handed grip so I can hit the birdie farther.

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## JonZ

> This is crucial, imo. In 'olden times', you would see pickers strap their F-5 via the headstock. I don't do it that way, but it does have the huge benefit of, once you hold your arms straight out from your sides, the mandolin literally does not move, neck does not dip. I actually think Evan Marshall straps his that way today. Likely for precisely for the reason I quoted.
> 
> I think the same idea drives Grisman to use his Dawg leash. He used to do the one shoulder way. There is benefit to not having to support the neck, so that you can move the hand very freely. Now, Red was the man - his right forearm was the point that 'held' the mandolin, so his left was free to get all that mando goodness.


I have adopted the strap positioning that Evan Marshall uses, totally ignoring the $2000 strap holder on the McClanahan. Instead I loop it right under the $500 strap holder that curls under at the very top of my peg head. I like Pete Martin's video explanation on mandolin ergonomics, but he attaches to the scroll. No matter which method you use, the instrument does not stay perfectly in playing position without help from your hand or arm. On the scroll you have to use more left hand to position the instrument. On the peg head you have to use right forearm. Since I try to pick from the wrist, I prefer attaching to the peg head and leaving my hands free to do their thang.

But I digress... I am not trying to open (yet another) debate on the "best" way to hold the mandolin. I am just confused by so many people ignoring this aspect of technique completely. I suppose 250sc has a point in that I am asking "why do people do what they do?" This may be a question for greater minds than even the Café can muster.

What's a Dawg Leash?

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## P.D. Kirby

I can only speak for myself but since I can't stand to play due to multiple back surgeries and am currently on disability awaiting another lower back surgery. I find to only comfortable way I can play for extended periods looks very much like the Mike Marshall method. Seated leaning forward with the mandolin firmly between my lap and chest and my feet on my case. I also use a strap mostly to help steady the mandolin and to keep from dropping it when I get up because I need both hands/arms to get up. I've tried to play in the proper posture and can only do this for short periods and it doesn't seem to improve my technique or speed. Besides the Marshall method affords me a great view of the fingerboard. So I'm sure it would shock you to see me play might even shock you to hear me as well.  :Disbelief:

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## Alex Orr

Who cares?  Sometimes I slump down when playing my mando, sometimes I hold it up high, sometimes I stand, sometimes I sit, etc...  

Sure, there's a "right" way to do it, but sometimes folks may find a position that works best for them.  For example...  Mike Marshall advocates a violin-style fret-hand position.  When I started taking lessons my instructor went through the same spiel.  I told him I knew all this, tried it, and that it that didn't work for me.  He continued to explain how much a disadvantage it would be to my playing if I continued using a classical guitar style grip.  This went on for nearly ten minutes, with me trying to convince him that the "correct" grip was not something that physically worked with me and him trying to convince me that I HAD to change.  Finally he gives a real good look at my hand and exclaims, "You're double jointed in your thumb, aren't you?", which is basically what I'd been telling him for a while.  He looks closer and says, "That's gotta be the oddest thumb joint I've ever seen.  Yeah, forget all about the correct way, your thumb doesn't rotate, you're just isn't capable of playing that way."  Again...what I'd been trying to tell him.  

No doubt I would be a subject of frustration in your eyes with the way I hold my mandolin, but that's the way that works best for me, not the "correct" Marshall way, which I'm not even entirely capable of achieving.  The question should be, is the player any good?  If so, then he's found a style that works for him.  Does the player sound lousy and does it appear his posture and right and left-hand positions are major causes?  If so, THEN it should be a cause of concern, otherwise, forget about it.

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## Patrick Bouldin

> We have had a surge of mandolin players at my local jam, and I am shocked (shocked I tell you!) by how haphazardly they hold their instruments. Generally, the strap is slung over one shoulder and they are slumped back in a chair, so their left hand is required to provide all of the support for the instrument. Naturally, this inhibits their ability to move their left hand.
> 
> What's the deal? If you learn to play golf, the first thing you learn is how to hold the club. Why are people so careless about this aspect of technique? Is my jam an anomaly, or is this common?
> 
> Let's not get off onto all of the famous people who play with the strap over one shoulder (and therefore that must be the right way to do it). They play standing, so it is not quite the same thing. This is not a question about the "best" way to hold the instrument; it is a question about general carelessness in holding the instrument.


I suppose that if I saw that happening, and the guy/gal played well then I woudn't say anything, and of course that technique works for him/her.  But, if they're not playing well I might try to lend them a hand, if they'll take it in good spirit.  Also, there's always a chance that someone has a medical reason to do what they're doing.

Patrick

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## swain

[
 "Why are people so careless about this aspect of technique?"

There could be some body language going on there.   I'll leave it to the more knowledable to interpret, but I know what it would mean to me if I were involved (albeit briefly) in such a jam.

swain

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## John Flynn

I'm surprised at the criticism of this thread. I think holding the instrument is a perfectly legit issue to discuss in the "Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks" section. I'm always puzzled by "Why did you start this thread?" comments. If you don't like the topic, just hit the back button and don't open the thread again. Easy!

To the OP, I thought it was interesting seeing a video of a duet between Marshall and Thile. Marshall is showing decent posture and Thile is all hunched over, but of course they both play great. I guess it's whatever works for you. I find I do play better with good posture, but I still don't do it all the time. Guess it's a bit of laziness on my part.

To the golf analogy, that is a "vice" I gave up a long time ago, but when I golfed, I always tried to have really good posture, yet I was a really bad golfer anyway. But then there were always a couple of old guys on the course that had terrible posture and form, but could just crank the ball straight down the fairway and then sink 30 foot puts. Go figure!

My favorite instrument handling anecdote is a guy who played guitar in a church group I was in for five years. He liked to walk around before rehearsals with his guitar slung over his back like Johnny Cash. But he just had a cheap, plain, worn strap. No strap locks or anything. One of these days he will drop that instrument on the marble floor and break the neck, I'm sure of it. But what can you do?

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## JonZ

Blueridgeborn--I wasn't suggesting that Mike Marshall's method was ineffective. It obviously holds the mandolin quite steady, while allowing the hands to move freely. But I do think that some people would have back problems if they tried to emulate it. So you fall into the "works for you" category.

Meanwhile, my assistant and I have been working on a prototype to posistion the mandolin correctly while allowing complete range of motion for all limbs:

Again, this is just a prototype.

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## Pete Heady

I saw Rich DeGrosso a few years ago playing energetically on his National RM1 
He was not using a strap at all, and that mando is heavy.
2 Songs in it slips a little and Rich catches his thumb nail on a string. 
Blood allover the mandolin.
I always use a strap, as balanced as I can.
Pete

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## Bill Baldock

You'll never be any good without the proper technique. Check out these clowns.

First one's kinda long, if your pressed for time at least watch the last three minutes. Clown # 1

Clown #2

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## Rick Schmidlin

No strap, no method but my own and it works for me.

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## JonZ

John Flynn--

For me "whatever works" means "whatever allows your hands to move freely". You can slouch or or stand like you have an iron rod up your... er... spine. If you are comfortable, and your hands can move freely, your technique works. (IMHO.)

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## SincereCorgi

I know what you mean Jon... but there are a lot of shocking things at jams. I think part of it is that a lot of jam pickers aren't that interested in developing a flexible, balanced ergonomic technique, because that sounds an awful lot like homework and they just want to play music. Play it very loudly, with wobbly rhythm that always accelerates. And no attempts at dynamics. And it seems like every third song is "Cherokee Shuffle". But they have a good time!

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## JonZ

Yeah, you're right. I suppose one could start an endless thread of jam session pet peeves. I don't like to imagine the things that I do at jams that probably irritate people.

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## allenhopkins

Most of the time at jams, I'm so busy messing up myself that I haven't time to critique others.  Came close to it, though, with Mike K and his Breedlove 'dola at last Sunday's American Hotel session.

My winnings?  Oh yes, thank you very much...

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## fatt-dad

I'm completely down with the OP.  Part of this is to consider where the player is in the journey. If somebody is learning it's great when they can get insight on how to hold the mandolin, both sitting and standing.  When somebody is accomplished, it matters little what works for me or how I approach technique, they found it another way.

f-d

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## Mandolin Mick

JonZ-

I've always thought that when I post or start a thread here, I'm opening myself to criticism. It comes with the territory.

I agree with 250sc's posts. People can handle their property any way they like. But, you have the right to be annoyed and post about your irritation.

I used to have a guy in my band who was annoyed about how I held my bass, put it in my case, etc. Instruments are just wood & metal, not gods.

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## JonZ

This notion of "do what works for you" kind of bothers me. It can be a cop out to avoid having to analyze things or make changes. Most sport coaches would find it unacceptable, but in the arts we all have to "do our own thing". Yet we are dealing with ergonomics in both cases. There are definitely some great players who exhibit what would appear to be poor techniques (won't mention any names :Grin: ), and you have to wonder whether they found another way, or came up short of their true potential.

I guess it is one of those questions you can't really answer, but I don't think you can necessarily equate "it works" with "best possible".

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## Cheryl Watson

The left hand should absolutely not be supporting the weight of the neck. I see this a lot too and it bothers me, but probably because I teach mandolin and guitar.

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## JEStanek

Dawg leash  strap is like a saxaphone strap modified to attach to the scroll (ideally at approximately the center of gravity line for good balance).


Jamie

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## mandotopia

I have my strap over my shoulder and neck connected to the headstock. It stays in position even with no hands. I assumed all those who attach to the scroll do it because Bill Monroe did it or because everyone else does it. I do not like to use my left hand to support the neck. There are better players than myself who do it differently. Thile and Marshall are two great examples. I must ask the question. Would they be even better if they held the instrument differently? I think they would. After playing as many hours as they have, I suspect changing would not be worth the effort for them. I have a bad left hand habit of retracting my pinkey after I fret a note. I know if I spent the time to undo 20+years of playing this way and train my pinkey to hover over the fredboard I would gain a little speed but its too much work to change. I think as mandolin playing evolves, an ideal technique will emerge like in classical guitar or violin.

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## bratsche

Even in violin (and viola, cello etc.)  there is a lot of variation.  It may be a bit more subtle than with mando, but if you look at a typical orchestra, everybody doesn't have (by a long shot) identical bow technique or left hand position, or even head or back position.

bratsche

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## mandolirius

> This notion of "do what works for you" kind of bothers me. It can be a cop out to avoid having to analyze things or make changes. Most sport coaches would find it unacceptable, but in the arts we all have to "do our own thing". Yet we are dealing with ergonomics in both cases. There are definitely some great players who exhibit what would appear to be poor techniques (won't mention any names), and you have to wonder whether they found another way, or came up short of their true potential.
> 
> I guess it is one of those questions you can't really answer, but I don't think you can necessarily equate "it works" with "best possible".



The main difference I see is that sports results are quantified, while results in the arts aren't, at least not in the same measured way. In organized sports, you're working towards a specific goal. In the arts, not so much. Sure, there are exceptions. Classical musicians sometimes remind me of athletes in training and their goals (play this piece perfectly) are often quite specific. But most progress in the arts meanders along a path that may not be leading straight towards a stated goal. Not so in sports.

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## Randi Gormley

Proper posture is important, but there are people who have never taken a lesson, watched a video or discussed posture with anybody and play as they do from simple ignorance. Then there are people who, like some said above, find that what passes for proper position doesn't work for one reason or another. I used to play hunched over because I'm self-taught and could play unobtrusively and quietly that way. It took a couple of workshops and eventual lessons to correct a lot of that. These days, I'm paying for poor playing posture in the past with wrist and elbow issues. But even though I know better, I still occasionally hunch over and sometimes, just to be silly, I'll play with both feet up on a table or chair with the mandolin sitting on my chest or lap.
So much depends on the background of the people playing and their age, too.

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## ColdBeerGoCubs

> You'll never be any good without the proper technique. Check out these clowns.
> 
> First one's kinda long, if your pressed for time at least watch the last three minutes. Clown # 1
> 
> Clown #2



Thats going to give me nightmares.

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## Mandolin Mick

I have great respect for those 2 clowns in the videos with no straps!

Bluegrass great Red Rector didn't play with a strap either! :Smile:

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## bratsche

The "Clown #1" (Bernardo De Pace) video was just amazing!  Silly costume notwithstanding, what a talent!  Is that a Lyon & Healy instrument he was playing?  I've never seen someone hold the instrument up so high that his arm was significantly *below* the tailpiece.

bratsche

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## 250sc

Shocking.

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## Alex Orr

> I've never seen someone hold the instrument up so high that his arm was significantly *below* the tailpiece.


Evan Marshall holds the instrument up pretty high as well.  Higher than Mike Marshall would probably approve of  :Wink:

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## mrmando

> Dawg leash  strap is like a saxaphone strap modified to attach to the scroll (ideally at approximately the center of gravity line for good balance).


Tiny Moore used to do that with his Bigsby. The Roberts Tiny Moore mandolins are designed with a little bracket to attach the strap. I often wonder if that's where Dawg got the idea.

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## Schlegel

> The "Clown #1" (Bernardo De Pace) video was just amazing!  Silly costume notwithstanding, what a talent!  Is that a Lyon & Healy instrument he was playing?  I've never seen someone hold the instrument up so high that his arm was significantly *below* the tailpiece.
> 
> bratsche


I believe this is an adaptation of the standing position used with the Italian bowlback- the right arm must be at the level of the tailpiece or below where it can lock the mandolin to the chest, thus freeing the left arm.  With a bowlback, if you stand and have the arm press on the bass side, you rotate the instrument away, and down it goes.

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## bratsche

> Evan Marshall holds the instrument up pretty high as well.  Higher than Mike Marshall would probably approve of


So do I, for that matter (not that I'm anywhere close to either of their league - hahaha!  :Laughing: ).  But you can't see Evan's tailpiece showing *above* his arm in any of his videos that I've seen, the way you could in Bernardo's.  Also, Evan uses a strap.  (I don't, for whatever that might be worth.)

bratsche

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## bratsche

> I believe this is an adaptation of the standing position used with the Italian bowlback- the right arm must be at the level of the tailpiece or below where it can lock the mandolin to the chest, thus freeing the left arm.  With a bowlback, if you stand and have the arm press on the bass side, you rotate the instrument away, and down it goes.


That makes perfect sense.  I know all too well how difficult it is to hold onto a bowlback (in any position.  LOL!   :Crying: )

bratsche

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## jim simpson

For years I used the over shoulder strap method but modified it with a smaller strap that would attach with a loop to my belt strap. This kept the headstock from diving down once I removed my hand. I have recently switched to the behind the neck method like one uses for guitar. I find it comfortable and don't notice the headstock dive tendency.

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## JonZ

I would not go so far as to say there is "one right way". Evan Marshall, David Grisman, and Mike Marshall each have very different methods for securing their mandolins that allow them to move their hands freely. They are good examples of "it works for them".

I just don't get the people who hold the instrument in a way that is counter productive. I think of this as "Mandolin Lesson 2" (after choosing the right band name).

Like I said, file this under "Pet Peeves".

By the way, do we have a Jam Session Pet Peeves thread? I know this is a "supportive, nurturing environment", but as long as no names are named, it could be very cathartic.

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## JEStanek

Here.

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## yankees1

> Why do you care what others do??????
> 
> If it works for you....do it.


    Yep!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## SimpleAsCouldBe

> Pete Martin's video explanation on mandolin ergonomics



I'd love to find this. Pete has some great stuff on YouTube, but I can't find one on ergonomics.

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## JonZ

> I'd love to find this. Pete has some great stuff on YouTube, but I can't find one on ergonomics.


The topic of the video is not ergonomics, it is about how to hold the mandolin, in which he emphasizes ergonomics.

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## michaelpthompson

OK I'm curious now. I've tried various positions with my mandolin strap, and have settled recently on putting it over the right shoulder and neck, much like I do with my guitar. I've got an A-style mandolin with a strap button on the side of the heel. I used it just over the neck for a while, and that worked fine for my bowlback with the strap tied to the headstock, but with the current setup on the heel, over the neck and right shoulder seemed better.

So what is the "correct" way to strap a mandolin to my body?

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## Ravenwood

Michael,

The more time you spend listening to many mandolin players the more you are likely to find that "the correct way" doesn't exist. As others mentioned early on in the discussion, it really is a matter of what works for you.

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## MOJOHAND40

a lot of it is just what you get used to. The first strap I got fit my mando to be hung from the shoulder (too short a strap to go to the headstock or to go around the neck)..therefore I got used to the single shoulder method.

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## Bill Snyder

Jon, I grew up playing viola. We learned early on that we should not have to hold the instrument up with our left hand. That is why we used shoulder pads so we could hold the instrument with our necks, shoulder and chin. Of course over the years I have seen fiddle players with TERRIBLE technique that could play circles around most of the people I grew up playing with.   :Smile: 
As to being slumped back in their chair and having to have their left hands support the instrument I think you could be wrong. As I type this I am sitting in what I picture to be the posture you are talking about. If I pick up my tenor canjo while sitting like this I can support it very well with my right arm. No left hand needed. Just pulled out a mandolin and it is the same thing. 
I am not recommending this posture, but i can see how it works.

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## SternART

> What's a Dawg Leash?


If anyone is interested I have one of the original batch of limited production, custom made, adjustable Dawg leashes I might consider parting with. First offer of $100. gets it!  Shipping to US included.  I have a 2nd one that was beaded with a design derived from my art glass, so the plain one is an extra.

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## jefg

Relax. Whether golf or mandolin, some folks just play for fun. Shocking.

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## Jim Garber

> Relax. Whether golf or mandolin, some folks just play for fun. Shocking.


I think this comment was, more or less, tongue-in-cheek. Besides it was over two years ago that even the last post was made. I have a feeling that the shock has worn off by now.

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## Pete Martin

Actually I do not use the left hand to hold the instrument at all, just the strap and the right hand in playing position.

The reason I studied ergonomics is after playing for years with "what worked for me" I got bad overuse injuries.  I became a better player when I studied ergonomics.

Anyone wanting to see the ergonomic videos, see "Mandolin Basics, vol 1 - 5" at the Petimar Press web site.

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Robert Billings

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## Michael H Geimer

> We have had a surge of mandolin players at my local jam, and I am shocked (shocked I tell you!) by how haphazardly they hold their instruments.
> 
> What's the deal?
> 
> ...it is a question about general carelessness in holding the instrument.


Taking a different tack on this topic. The question so far has been, '_Why do some folk fail to acknowledge the value of good posture during jams?_'. But I think we've ignored the more informative angle of questioning. '_What are these people thinking about that could be more important than good technique?_' 

A: Some people (most people?) jam to relax, and they arrive ready to immerse themselves in the music. In that sense what works for them is also the best thing to do.  :Cool:

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## JeffD

> A: Some people (most people?) jam to relax, and they arrive ready to immerse themselves in the music. In that sense what works for them is also the best thing to do.


Cart and horse.

I think except for deliberate woodshedding we rarely if ever play in order to get better. We don't jam to get better, we work on geting better in order to jam better.

That surely doesn't mean that what ever we are doing at such moments is ok. It means that next time we are woodshedding, there may be some things to pay particular attention to.


Its really difficult (but I manage it) not to comment when seeing someone struggling with something I have solved. But it is very rarely (the difference between very rarely and never is too small to measure) appropriate to say anything.

Folks are just at where they are at.

When they see a need to get better, they will ask. Or not. 

Its all I can do to pay attention to all the things I need to improve.

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Jim Nollman, 

johes

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## Jim Nollman

I have an injury in my right elbow from playing too many contra dances at top speed. I believe I got it because I had developed an effective double time/double stop style, not so different than what you might hear from a bluegrass or zydeco mandolin player, although rather unusual for a contra dance. I developed this style, and then performed it, always standing up. 

However, over time I started copying the preference of the rest of my band members, all of whom prefer to play sitting down. Then I noticed that most visiting contra dance bands were also playing while sitting down. It seems also worthy to mention,  that most mandolinists for contra dances prefer a rather relaxed strumming style that is easy to accomplish while sitting down. Playing my frenetic bluegrass/ zydeco style while sitting down — at 118 bpm — has led directly to the injury in my picking elbow. 

That description may also explain why bluegrass mandolin players prefer to play standing up, and contra dance mandolin players prefer to play sitting down.

Fortunately, my wife is an occupational therapist. She has diagnosed my problem as "mandolin elbow". You heard it here, first. This malady is vaguely similar to tennis elbow, but involves different ligaments located  on the inside point of the strumming elbow. 

For the past two months I've been wearing a stretchy elbow brace whenever I rehearse or perform. I also loosened up my strap so the instrument hangs slightly lower, now at about belly height.  Most important, I threw away the chair.  :Coffee:

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## AlanN

We pick sitting down. At some point, we stand to 'get down'. Fiddle and banjo I think benefit from standing. Either way, one should sit up to really play well, the good posture thing.

I think on many recording sessions, bg pickers sit.

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## SincereCorgi

> I think except for deliberate woodshedding we rarely if ever play in order to get better. We don't jam to get better, we work on geting better in order to jam better.


Perhaps I misunderstand you, but I think many, many musicians would disagree with that.

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## JeffD

> Perhaps I misunderstand you, but I think many, many musicians would disagree with that.


Hmmmm. Well let me try and 'splain. 

When I am at a jam, we are all playing the music together, for the fun of playing the music together, and all the fun aspects of playing music so documented in all our posts. We are not working on playing better or figuring out what we are doing wrong, or how we can improve, at these moments.

When I am playing a concert, or an open mike, or in front of people, I am playing the music as best I can, paying attention to the other musicians that may be with me, working at getting the best overall musical effect. I am not working on playing better, I am playing how I play as best I can.

The only time I am consciously trying to solve intonation problems, find shortcuts, pick up speed, work on pick direction, hold the instrument in an easier way, ... the only time I an consciously trying to improve anything at all, is when I am practicing back home.

I guess I kind of assumed that was universal.

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## Michael H Geimer

> Cart and horse.
> 
> I think except for deliberate woodshedding we rarely if ever play in order to get better. We don't jam to get better, we work on geting better in order to jam better.


And so I suggested it is best to apply the values of Good Woodshedding to The Woodshed and the values of Good Jamming to The Jam. IOW: Leave the poor saps alone!  :Crying: 

But I'll say this, I'm no slouch!  :Laughing:

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## JeffD

> IOW: Leave the poor saps alone!


There it is. Zactly.

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Michael H Geimer

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## bratsche

bratsche

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greg_tsam

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## tmsweeney

with the octave I find it makes a huge diff  ( sitting down to practice)- if I am lazy and just  let it hang on my right side ( strap over shoulder)  - I find my left hand does not seem in the best position  - if I hold it in my lap with the neck pointing up and away from me - ( more like a classical guitar) then I find my left hand is placed on the neck at an angle that is for me - advantageous - the stretches and chord shapes are easier and generally cleaner.
at jams I usually stand so it kind of falls into one position right in front of me with the neck pointing slightly up
it doesn't really bother me how other people hold their mandolins - kind of like those guys who hold the fiddle in the crook of their elbow instead of under the chin-  not "proper" but if it works - why not.
what bothers me ( or captures my attention) is how the music sounds

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