# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  Spruce vs. Cedar?

## terzinator

What's the general difference between these two tonewoods, as far as mandolins go? For guitars, you generally only see cedar on classicals (although I know Martin messed around with a Cedar HD-28 some years ago).

But for mandolins, all other things being equal, how would the tone of a cedar and a spruce mandolin differ? 

(And is this the right section for this question?)

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hank

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## Dave Hanson

Fylde Guitars in the UK make excellent mandolin, mandolas, bouzoukis, citterns and guitars using cedar tops, a warmer sound than spruce at the outset but doesn't open up much with age.

Dave H

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## Rob Gerety

> For guitars, you generally only see cedar on classicals (although I know Martin messed around with a Cedar HD-28 some years ago).


I beg to differ.  Cedar is a very popular top for guitars of various types including steel strings.  I own a Bourgeois JOM Cedar over Mahogany.  Gorgeous guitar.  Powerful too, contrary to some popular opinions. Tons of headroom.  Can't comment regarding the question of cedar on mandos, but in my opinion it is a wonderful tonewood for guitars.

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## RichM

I've owned a few cedar-topped guitars, and I like it very much. Slightly more open sounding than spruce, and a little more "mellow." The biggest issue I've had with cedar is that it's very very easy to ding, so you need to treat it a little more gently (or have no issue with dings!).

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## D C Blood

I know Ken Ratcliff has made a good number of his Silverangels with cedar tops.  Ken...any comments on this?

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## Shelagh Moore

_For guitars, you generally only see cedar on classicals (although I know Martin messed around with a Cedar HD-28 some years ago).
_
Not quite as common as spruce but there are plenty of cedar top steel string guitars about. I had a nice cedar top Lowden for quite a while. There are a fair number of makers using cedar for mandolins. It is softer than spruce and doesn't change as much with age. I personally find it has a nice warm sound though I usually go for spruce.

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## terzinator

yeah, I probably got in a pickle there in my original post by saying the word "only"... so I'm good with the idea that there are more cedar tops out there than I'm properly accounting for...

anyway, so, cedar as a tonewood... warmer... I often people talk about this or that being "warmer" with respect to sound or tone, but rarely do I hear anyone use "colder" to describe an opposite characteristic. So, would you say warmer means less bright? Less biting? Less crisp? Thicker? 

Would you say that, for a bluegrass mandolin, cedar is a desirable topwood? Or is it suited more to other styles? Or "it depends on the instrument"?

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## Ray(T)

Cedar is great for cladding houses and building sheds......
Ray

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## foldedpath

Someone correct me if this is wrong, but I think the "classical guitar =  cedar top" thing started with Ramirez back in the 60's, maybe? The preferred top wood for classical guitars had always been European spruce until then. The best wood was becoming harder to get for a high production outfit like Ramirez, so they started using and popularizing cedar as an alternative. At least I think that's how I remember it (the old gray cells ain't what they used to be). Cedar is now just about all you see in the entry level classical guitar market, probably due to easy availability for the Asian builders like Takamine and Yamaha. However, spruce is still used alongside cedar by most of the higher-end luthiers like Dammann, Ruck, Humphrey, Smallman, etc. for concert-grade classical guitars. 

My main mandolin has a redwood top, with similar characteristics to cedar. I wanted something a little different, so I took a chance with redwood and I'm very happy with it. I'm not going to call the tone "warm" because that's such a cliché, and I'm not sure that describes the tone anyway. It's just nicely balanced between lows and highs, with a sweet tone and good volume. A hardcore bluegrasser (which I'm not) would probably stick with the "Monroe/Loar" formula and a spruce top, but for a general-purpose mandolin like this, being used for Irish 'trad, OldTime, Blues, and just a little grass now and then, I think redwood or cedar is a great tonewood choice. That is, *if* the luthier is accustomed to working with it. 

On the question of softness and damage: I have a cedar-topped Holst classical guitar, and that redwood-topped Lebeda mandolin, and I haven't noticed either one being any more prone to dings or surface wear than my spruce-topped instruments. The finish may have something to do with it, since both have thin but very hard glossy lacquer finishes. Maybe they'd be a little more prone to dings with a less protective finish like varnish or French Polish, I don't know. In general though, I think the idea that cedar (or redwood) is a soft wood that's prone to damage is somewhat overstated.

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## Jake Wildwood

I used to own a Lark in the Morning cedar-topped mandola when I was in college... wonderful sounding instrument. Really, really was. And smelled SO good! I sold it while thinning out the herd, though...!

It's great for a "folky" sounding instrument: warm, smooth, dark and "woody" right out of the box. It doesn't have the crispness or ringing complexity of spruce, but I (for one) really liked the tone.

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## RichM

When I say "warmer," I generally mean longer decay, less treble emphasis, more midrange, less focused, less percussive. Your mileage, as always, may vary.

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## Randolph

This conversation, coupled with the thread on walnut for an instument rim and back, is killing me.  I just received a beautiful C# mando from Bill Bussmann, and with a sigh of relief felt my chronic case of MAS fading away.  Alas, I have finally begun the long process (for me at least) of learning to sing.  At present, I accompany myself on an old Gibson tenor tuned to octave mando pitch.  Now, however, I'm starting to lust for a GOM made with, you guessed it, a walnut body and a cedar or redwood top. :Crying:   Bill, at Old Wave, is of course a builder to consider.  But just for fun, can you all recommend a few other luthiers as well?  Thanks.

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## Rob Gerety

You know, I used to buy into the notion that cedar is warmer, softer, easier to ding, more open, doesn't "open up" etc. etc.  But now, I am very skeptical.  My Bourgeois is none of these things. Frankly, its just a great power house of a guitar just like any really good guitar spruce topped or otherwise.

"It doesn't have the crispness or ringing complexity of spruce, "  Everyone has different experiences - but this comment is 180 degrees out from my personal experience.  My Bourgeois has all of this and more.

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## Spruce

> Cedar is great for cladding houses and building sheds......
> Ray


Tell that to Bruce Weber, or any of the folks currently playing those cedar-topped mandos they've been building lately...

I've yet to play a bad one...

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## RichM

> You know, I used to buy into the notion that cedar is warmer, softer, easier to ding, more open, doesn't "open up" etc. etc.  But now, I am very skeptical.  My Bourgeois is none of these things. Frankly, its just a great power house of a guitar just like any really good guitar spruce topped or otherwise.
> 
> "It doesn't have the crispness or ringing complexity of spruce, "  Everyone has different experiences - but this comment is 180 degrees out from my personal experience.  My Bourgeois has all of this and more.


As far as tone goes, I think it just goes to show that selection of tonewoods is just one small variable in the overall equation of tone. As far as cedar's tendency to ding-- well, I'm glad your guitar doesn't, but mine got a ding in it just by someone pressing hard with a fingertip! No two pieces of wood are the same, so maybe I got a bad one or you got a good one!

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## Ray(T)

Maybe but I've never seen an spruce clad house or shed .......
Ray

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## hank

Are there any old cedar or redwood mandolins to compare mechanical and tonal longevity?  There are plenty of old and not so old spruce topped mandolins that developed cracks and top sinkage.  Climate (temp and humidity) storage conditions (hot attics) always comes to mind but mandolins have more downward stress on the top than most flattop guitars especially classical.  Does the thicker dimensions of the cedar/redwood tops compensate for differences in their stiffness and strength? How much does wood selection effect the aging process?

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## Spruce

> Maybe but I've never seen an spruce clad house or shed .......
> Ray


Go to New England in the States sometime...

_All_ the clapboard on the old houses (and some new ones for that matter) are milled from premium Adirondack spruce...

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swain

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## foldedpath

> Are there any old cedar or redwood mandolins to compare mechanical and tonal longevity?  There are plenty of old and not so old spruce topped mandolins that developed cracks and top sinkage.  Climate (temp and humidity) storage conditions (hot attics) always comes to mind but mandolins have more downward stress on the top than most flattop guitars especially classical.  Does the thicker dimensions of the cedar/redwood tops compensate for differences in their stiffness and strength? How much does wood selection effect the aging process?


Those are all good questions and the answer has to be that we just don't know yet, because it's only been in the last 20 years or so that luthiers have been able to sell alternative tonewoods that departed from the classic pre-war guitar and mandolin designs. I haven't heard anything about early production Ramirez cedar classical guitars blowing up, so we know guitars at least are good out to about 40 years or so.

My Holst cedar classical guitar has carbon fiber lattice bracing under the top, instead of the usual wood fan bracing. I'm a little curious about what the long-term effects of that will be, as the wood ages and shrinks, and the CF doesn't. But so far, nothing has budged a millimeter... no ripples or weirdness in the soundboard after four years in a climate where the house humidity varies from 30% to 60% Rh through seasonal changes. It looks like stable tech, at least for the time frame that I'll own and play this guitar.

I've had my redwood-topped 2006 Lebeda mandolin for a little over two years, and nothing on it has budged either. 

I don't think I'll live long enough to see whether either instrument is a long-term problem. I'm too busy just trying how to play the darn things up to their potential, and not worrying too much about something 20 or 30 years from now.

As someone (maybe Alan Carruth?) once said; "All string instruments are trying to swallow themselves." They'll all  self-destruct or become museum pieces if you take a long-enough worldview.  :Smile:

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hank

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## hank

This sleeping question of tonal differences has come to my attention again while admiring the beautiful Elkwood Cedar and Redwood topped creations coming from Robb Brophy's shop in Durango.  Can some of you lucky gardians of these and other alternate wood mandolins help the rest of us understand the sonic differences of topwood choice?  
  My perception questions a softer woods ability to excel at producing the upper end treble produced on the surface of the instrument. This is the part of the tone that logically seems to require a harder piece of Redwood or Cedar to compete with Spruce.  As pointed out previously with at least with one individual's guitar, there is no noticeable degradation but improvement in this area of the tonal palet.

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## Br1ck

The top tone wood is a large, but just one factor, for determining the final sound of a mandolin. While undeniably a huge factor, the redwood top of my Silverangel is also accompanied by a more pronounced carve, especially on the back,which won't clear a toneguard. It would be interesting to hear two mandolins, one with a more normal arch. I assume Ken Radcliff has developed his design for good reason. Anyway,the result is a fine mandolin I know won't appeal to every taste.

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## Barry Wilson

My La Patrie classical cw is a cedar top. it is very warm. mind you it has nylon strings so...

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## Charlieshafer

> Go to New England in the States sometime...
> 
> _All_ the clapboard on the old houses (and some new ones for that matter) are milled from premium Adirondack spruce...


just as an f.y.i. of no real importance..
Spruce and eastern white pine, for that matter. Easy to find clapboards well over 200 years old if they were maintained. Eastern (white) cedar for roofs only; didn't last unless they were by the water with the salt air helping to preserve...slightly. We didn't use cedar for siding here until the western forests were starting to be logged and they came across the big western red trees. 

Eastern white pine took over in the late 1800's for siding and trim as the spruce were pretty well logged out, along with the oaks suitable for timber framing. By about 1840, timber framing switched to hemlock as the large oak trees were gone. Chestnut was used for flooring, rarely for the frames. Then that went away, too, due to the blight.

So there you have it, useless information for a Monday night.

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## Dave Kirkpatrick

I have a Girouard mandola with a cedar top. It has beautiful warm tone that, at least to me, is more complex than spruce. As for durability, my father has had cedar shake shingles on his roof since 1972 in Livingston, Montana, where the winds routinely top 50 miles an hour, and have been clocked at over 100. Nary a shingle has given up its grip, despite suffering through temps as low as -40 and as high as 100+, as well as desert-like humidity levels. I don't know what that says about cedar as a tone wood, but it is a testament about its toughness.

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## Mike Snyder

My mandolins are Sitka and Red Spruce, respectively, so....... not much to add to the discussion, but cedar roofs I know about. The lifespan of a cedar roof has a great deal to do with the roofing system UNDER the shingles and the expertise of the crew. Done right they last better that asphalt composite.

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Dave Kirkpatrick

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## hank

Mike, I guess a good roofer is just as important as a good luthier but do Cedar shakes sound better than Spruce shakes when the rain plays them?  I like the sound of tin roofs.  Their sort of the resonators of roof tones.

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fox

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## pheffernan

> My mandolins are Sitka and Red Spruce, respectively, so.......


Which one is the Black A4? I was under the impression that Mike largely builds his ovals with Engelmann.

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## Bob A

> Someone correct me if this is wrong, but I think the "classical guitar =  cedar top" thing started with Ramirez back in the 60's, maybe? The preferred top wood for classical guitars had always been European spruce until then. The best wood was becoming harder to get for a high production outfit like Ramirez, so they started using and popularizing cedar as an alternative. At least I think that's how I remember it (the old gray cells ain't what they used to be). Cedar is now just about all you see in the entry level classical guitar market, probably due to easy availability for the Asian builders like Takamine and Yamaha. However, spruce is still used alongside cedar by most of the higher-end luthiers like Dammann, Ruck, Humphrey, Smallman, etc. for concert-grade classical guitars. 
> 
> My main mandolin has a redwood top, with similar characteristics to cedar. I wanted something a little different, so I took a chance with redwood and I'm very happy with it. I'm not going to call the tone "warm" because that's such a cliché, and I'm not sure that describes the tone anyway. It's just nicely balanced between lows and highs, with a sweet tone and good volume. A hardcore bluegrasser (which I'm not) would probably stick with the "Monroe/Loar" formula and a spruce top, but for a general-purpose mandolin like this, being used for Irish 'trad, OldTime, Blues, and just a little grass now and then, I think redwood or cedar is a great tonewood choice. That is, *if* the luthier is accustomed to working with it. 
> 
> On the question of softness and damage: I have a cedar-topped Holst classical guitar, and that redwood-topped Lebeda mandolin, and I haven't noticed either one being any more prone to dings or surface wear than my spruce-topped instruments. The finish may have something to do with it, since both have thin but very hard glossy lacquer finishes. Maybe they'd be a little more prone to dings with a less protective finish like varnish or French Polish, I don't know. In general though, I think the idea that cedar (or redwood) is a soft wood that's prone to damage is somewhat overstated.


Your post brought back a memory.

Quite some time ago I bought a Pimentel classical guitar that was cedar-topped with a mahogany body, from a dealer in Tennessee. It had a lovely tone and was a joy to play. I was somewhat influenced to purchase it as it was made during the time luthier Richard Schneider was apprenticed to Pimentel. Schneider later went on to work with Michael Kasha who developed a unique bracing system. Sadly, I no longer have the guitar, so am unable to provide the date of its manufacture. I'd not heard of such a combination of woods in a guitar at the time, and was pleasantly surprised by the instrument.

I believe Schneider was asked about steel strung guitars with cedar soundboards; he said they could be made, but considerable attention should be paid to the bracing, else there'd be trouble in future. Whether this applies to mandolins as well is beyond my ken, but I'd guess the stresses would be applied over a shorter moment arm, thus less susceptible to eventual mechanical failure.

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## foldedpath

If it helps add to the discussion, here's a clip I recorded just for fun a few years ago. A two mandolin duet, one with a cedar top, the other with a redwood top. the tune is "Money's Gone," or "Hey Boys, the Money's All Gone," two different versions (there are a lot of different versions).

The first part is a unison duet with two mandolins, them my friend takes off on the melody and I back him. You may need headphones to hear the two different instruments.

http://ptjams.com/mb/mp3/Money%27s%2...0Duet%2002.mp3

Left channel is me on a Lebeda redwood-top, maple back and sides F-style mandolin.

Right channel is my friend Cheqa Rodgers on an Elkhorn cedar top, cocobolo back and sides F-style mandolin. There is a little pick click here due to the fingerboard extension, if you're having trouble telling them apart.

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almeriastrings, 

GrooverMcTube, 

hank

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## RichardF

What I've found is that my 1982 Fylde, cedar top mahogany back and sides is ready to go as soon as I open the case and remains in tune and constant in response all night. Whereas the Breedlove OF 2006 takes a good 10 minutes playing to wake up, becomes more responsive as I play longer but is less likely to stay in tune all night, a bit inconvenient when I watch to the electric for several songs, but I can deal with that.

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hank

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## hank

Great song and playing Folded Path.  Cheqa's and your nimble fingers prove the point that there is plenty of sparkle in the top end of both these mandolins. Your Redwood/Maple sounded slightly  more top end oriented than Cheqa's Western Cedar/Cocobolo to me.  When playing back to back Cedar or Redwood then a conventional Spruce/Maple mandolin do you find the A & E strings of both instruments respond and sound similar enough to make this discussion of top wood high end performance mute?

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## Groundcoat

> You know, I used to buy into the notion that cedar is warmer, softer, easier to ding, more open, doesn't "open up" etc. etc.  But now, I am very skeptical.  My Bourgeois is none of these things. Frankly, its just a great power house of a guitar just like any really good guitar spruce topped or otherwise.
> 
> "It doesn't have the crispness or ringing complexity of spruce, "  Everyone has different experiences - but this comment is 180 degrees out from my personal experience.  My Bourgeois has all of this and more.


I absolutely agree with Post#13.  My Lakewood guitar has a AAA cedar top and has a very powerful, in-your-face tone that allows me to be heard at the bluegrass jams.  It certainly changed my perception of cedar as a top wood.  I'd love to do an A-B comparison with red spruce.

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## foldedpath

> Great song and playing Folded Path.  Cheqa's and your nimble fingers prove the point that there is plenty of sparkle in the top end of both these mandolins. Your Redwood/Maple sounded slightly  more top end oriented than Cheqa's Western Cedar/Cocobolo to me.


When I've compared that particular cedar/cocobolo mandolin to my redwood/maple one, the main difference I've heard in isolation is that it's a bit warmer in tone (a little more bass) and a little more harmonic content. My redwood mandolin doesn't have quite as much energy going into the bass frequencies. It's a bit more focused or "direct" sounding, if that makes sense. That may be why it sounds a little more top end oriented. 

Still, these are the products of two different luthiers, so it's hard to say how much of this is down to the tonewoods and how much is just the tone they were shooting for. It's possible they would have had the same relative sound if the tonewoods were swapped around.




> When playing back to back Cedar or Redwood then a conventional Spruce/Maple mandolin do you find the A & E strings of both instruments respond and sound similar enough to make this discussion of top wood high end performance mute?


That's an interesting question. The qualities we associate with differences in tonewoods like "bark," "woodiness," "warmth," or "harmonics" to my ear, are mostly in the notes played lower on the fretboard and on the G,D,A strings. Once you start climbing up the fretboard and playing on the A and E strings (especially the E's), I think timbre differences from tonewoods tend to flatten out. The main difference between instruments then becomes the mechanical quality of construction that allows a note to ring out clearly on the high frets. 

I've played mandolins that had good high notes and others with poor ones (in terms of clarity and sustain) from all the different common tonewoods. The variable is more luthier skill than the top wood for those high notes, I think. Just my opinion, and others may disagree with that.
 :Smile:

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hank

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## Spruce

> I've played mandolins that had good high notes and others with poor ones (in terms of clarity and sustain) from all the different common tonewoods. The variable is more luthier skill than the top wood for those high notes, I think. Just my opinion, and others may disagree with that.


Nah, the luthier's got nothing to do with it...
It's _all_ about the wood...    :Wink: 
Have a great '17, all...

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hank

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## foldedpath

> Nah, the luthier's got nothing to do with it...
> It's _all_ about the wood...


Objection, your honor! Witness has a clear bias!




> Have a great '17, all...


Likewise!

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## hank

Thank you Folded Path.  The Luthiers skill is never forgotten when we discuss the leading particulars of a mandolins performance.  My experience has been that most of what you described as tonal descriptions are more attributed to having the back plate coupled to the front plate.  On better performing mandolins you often hear players discribe this coupling with comments like I feel the back vibrations like it's alive, etc. The few examples of Cedar or Redwood I have heard in person had a noticeable difference in the tone of the upper register particularly the E string.  It wasn't a matter of the notes not resonating fully when fretted on the upper neck but strictly a warmer tone there and most noticeably on the E strings.  The bass response for a good chop and woody tone didn"t seem affected by the top wood as much as the E strings voice.  This had the beneficial effect of a smoother more even transition from wound to unwound strings.  I believe many prefer this smooth transition and are not bothered by a little less pizazz in the E string. 

   I brought this thread back knowing the answer is that the rigidity, mass and internal damping of all woods is as varied as the climate and location that nurtured them.  Still, when my limited sampling seemed to indicate a woodier E string is the norm, WHO YA GONNA CALL?  The Mandolin Cafe builders myth busters here in the forum.

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## mandroid

Classical Guitar soundboards are commonly Cedar.

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## Bill Cameron

Cedar heartwood (not the cambium, the "inner bark" layer) is naturally rot-resistant which makes it very useful for siding, decking and fenceposts but doesnt have much bearing on its suitability as a tonewood. Hemlock and locust are rot-resistant too but I dont see anyone using them for instrument tops. Spruce is pretty poor at rot-resistance. I am surprised to hear that it was a popular choice for siding, for which white pine has always been the preferred material here in Ontario.  

Getting back to the tonewood question, I too have a great mellow-sounding flattop mandola with a red cedar top (and yellow birch body, I think)-- also a terrific cedar-topped dreadnought which was a Japanese-made Lowden design. The latter has more bass than just about any guitar in the known world. 

Incidentally, the guy that made my mandola--he worked in a sawmill and liked to try different local woods--also made some with white pine tops. A friend of mine ordered one and was quite disappointed. Dull thuddy sound. Dont try it.

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## almeriastrings

Within the last couple of years I picked up one of Breedlove's last 'traditional' dreads - just after they discontinued them all. I got this one at a crazy blow out price.... what a nice guitar, though. WR Cedar over EIRW. Great fingerstyle but is fine with fairly heavy flatpicking too. Records superbly.  A real shame they dropped this line.

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## Astro

Almeriastrings- I just picked up a Cedar topped Breedlove too. Its an orchestra sized cutaway--I think a "concet solo performer" or something like that. Anyway, it sounds and plays fantastic and the built in electronics sound amazing. Possibly the best balanced tone through a PA that i'ved heard in an acoustic guitar. http://www.zzounds.com/item--BRESOLC...jOhoCiDHw_wcB=

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## almeriastrings

Excellent... yes... they have very good electronics in these! They do seem to have got the technique of working with cedar down really well, too. Much under-rated....

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## red7flag

After reading this thread, I am now considering going to Western Red Cedar for the new mandola that Lawrence Nyberg is making for me.  The sides and back will be Paduak, which is walnut like.  He offers two types of Western Red Cedar, one tight and hard vs a darker one that is softer and "warmer".  I will be talking with Lawrence and get his opinion, but I would also really like the opinion of my friends on the Cafe.  Thanks in advance.

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## red7flag

BTW, I think we initially chose Engelmann.  We never really considered Cedar, at that time.

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## Spruce

> He offers two types of Western Red Cedar, one tight and hard vs a darker one that is softer and "warmer".  I will be talking with Lawrence and get his opinion, but I would also really like the opinion of my friends on the Cafe.


Go with cedar that is as hard-to-the-fingernail as you can find...regardless of weight...
...and steer clear of cedar that is soft...
YMMV, but I doubt it...   :Wink: 

That being said, I always love to let the builder make the call, especially on tops...

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Dave Kirkpatrick, 

hank, 

red7flag

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## Mike Snyder

Yeah, come to think of it, The Black is probably Engleman.

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pheffernan

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## CES

Agree with the advice to go with the harder cedar. See Glen Hansard's cedar topped Takmine as exhibit A  :Wink: .

I have a Taylor 714 with WRC top and EIRW B/S that I picked out off a wall of Martins. I have a D-28 Yairi copy from the '70s that's an excellent guitar (Spruce/Brazilian) and a Guild D-40 (Spruce/mahogany). I was looking for more of a finger picker and something to add a different tonal pallet to the arsenal, and the 714 met both needs very well. I agree with the "warmer" tone generalization compared to the other two that I own. The Guild is very focused sounding and an excellent strummer (classic D-18 tone). Its bass is good and records well, but not as boomy as the other 2. The D-28 gives boomy bass but a more focused tone than the 714 (though the Yairi is more overtoney and less focused than the Guild). The 714 has a really nice bass boom, but has more overtones while still retaining a bit of the signature Taylor "sparkle" (that people tend to either love or hate). It's an excellent finger picker, but has plenty of headroom strumming, too. If I'm playing straight up rhythm (in any genre) or bluegrass lead guitar, I'll grab one of the others, but for worship services, where I'll often play a bit of finger picking and rhythm, I grab the 714 every time. It handles dropped tunings very well (man, a low C or D really rumbles!), and sounds good with a LR Baggs sound hole pickup (that I leave off except when performing) through a Baggs Radius. And, so far, it's got no finish wear or significant dings (got it 6 or 7 years ago). I tend to be pretty careful with my instruments, but it's a good piece of WRC. The Guild actually has the most wear on treble side of the sound hole, but some of that is from less refined/experienced technique and over 13 years of wailing on it at this point. 

So, I'd definitely consider a cedar topped mandolin, but I'd want to hear/play it first, or commission one from a Luthier who has a rep for getting good results with that top wood. Wouldn't hesitate to get an OM or Zouk with a cedar top, though, given my satisfaction with my guitar...

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hank

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## red7flag

Just follow up.  I talked with Lawrence Nyberg and he felt that WRC would be a very nice combination with paduak on a mandola.  He will look through his cedar to find a piece that would be right for the projected instrument.  Thanks all for this thread and the inspiration.  After reading this thread I woke up in bed and my whole body popped up when I thought of the Cedar on the Nyberg mandola.

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## Barry Wilson

I have a paduak ukulele. it is a very porous wood (you can see dots/indents all over). That tenor is quite soft sounding... not much volume compared to my plywood soprano lol.

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## red7flag

> I have a paduak ukulele. it is a very porous wood (you can see dots/indents all over). That tenor is quite soft sounding... not much volume compared to my plywood soprano lol.


Not to disagree, Barry, but after a lot of investigation, soft sounding was not one of the qualities that come to mind with pauak.  Most people relate it to walnut as far as sound.  And while not a poppy as maple, soft sounding would not be the primary characteristic.  Warmer probably, but no lack of volume.  I have no direct experience with paduak, so I would like to ask the tone wood meisters for their opinions of paduak?

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## red7flag

Did not mean to hijack this thread.  I will move the topic of paduak to a new thread.  My bad.

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## hank

No Tony, the O.P. topic began with Spruce vs Cedar but a desire to understand buyers reluctance to purchase these newer woods brought it back.   In that light both the top plate and the back are under much of the same scrutiny and ripe for discussion here.  I believe many players want to follow tradition regardless of the merits of these newer tone-woods but for others there is still a question of tone or mechanical longevity for a multi thousand dollar investment.  An example: Cocobolo is such an oily wood that I personally have a hard time warming up to the glues required to build with it.  I would be concerned about a Cocobolo fingerboard creeping over time as well for the same reasons.  The only ways for me to change my way of thinking is a new experience contrary to my belief or enlightening discussion as we are having here now.

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## Br1ck

What makes top wood discussions less than exact is that there are so many variables to consider, both in the individual wood sets and the construction parameters. If I were doing a custom build. I'd have extensive talks with my luthier and trust his ability to deliver with whatever wood he or she felt would work best.

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## Charlieshafer

This is more of a question than a comment, and more perhaps for Spruce or a builder. How much does location have to do with quality of the wood? Just knowing the New England forests, I can't imagine (outside of the renegade appy spruce that might still be around) that any of our forests would produce good tone wood for tops. The forests have all been clear cut several times over 300 years, and outside of some easter white pine from Maine, the trees that have grown back into old abandoned farmland are pretty manky. We'll occasionally get some great old maple, or even apple, that can look really nice, but tops? Can't imagine it.

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## foldedpath

> I believe many players want to follow tradition regardless of the merits of these newer tone-woods but for others there is still a question of tone or mechanical longevity for a multi thousand dollar investment.  An example: Cocobolo is such an oily wood that I personally have a hard time warming up to the glues required to build with it.  I would be concerned about a Cocobolo fingerboard creeping over time as well for the same reasons.


You're not wrong about that. The owner of the cocobolo/cedar instrument in that sound clip I posted above, has had some serious issues with seam separation. It may be possible to build for better longevity with cocobolo, but that particular instrument isn't a good argument for it.

I've also heard it can be nasty to work with, in terms of possible allergy reactions. And if you needed any MORE disencentive (although I do like the wood when it works), cocobolo has just hit the CITES list as of this January, that will make it more difficult for luthiers and dealers to move product overseas without additional paperwork. That shouldn't affect owners of the instruments who are exempt, but it will probably be more rare to see this wood used in the future. The CITES rules are also hitting any species of "Indian" and other rosewood now, and that's another whole kettle of worms. 

The other more mainstream mandolin-building woods we've talked about here like maple, spruce, cedar, and redwood aren't currently affected by any of this... except in terms of availability of highest-grade tonewoods from increasingly depleted sources (more kettles of worms).

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hank

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## Mandobart

My main player (2010 Morris hybrid F4) has a WRC soundboard, bigleaf maple neck back and sides, and cocbolo fretboard and cocobolo body points.  Sound is great to me and those I play with.  No issues with it at all so far.

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hank

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## Fretbear

I have a 40 year old Yamaki Dread with a cedar top. They won't stand for too much finger rubbing (Hansard's poor guitar was mentioned) but as far as a steel-string's sound goes, very beautiful and mellow as well.

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hank

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## Billy Packard

I'm coming late to the party but I have an interesting anecdote.

I  have a 2007 Weber Fern I bought new in 2009 at Sylvan Music in Santa Cruz, CA.  I sent it back to Weber for stainless steel frets in November of 2012.  Bruce and I agreed to have him re-graduate the top and back plates to reduce weight and improve tone.  During the re-do Bruce called me to tell me the top was Cedar!  He was surprised and was not aware that this had happened.  This mandolin is a towering voice with everything a player could want & everyone who has heard it and played it is awed.  

I can't say for sure about spruce verses cedar but this particular mandolin is spectacular in every way with a cedar top.

Billy 

billypackardmandolin.com

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hank

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## red7flag

Just a quick follow up.  I received an email from Lawrence Nyberg recently.  He looked through his stash of Western Red Cedar and did not find any that would fit the needs of the mandola he is making for me.  He has recommended and I agree that we continue the plan to use engelmann for the top.  He feels that will provide the tonal warmth that I am looking for in that instrument.  We also decided on dark, maybe ebony or the like, binding.  That sounds awesome to me even though I had not considered that approach.  Lawrence is a pleasure to work with and I trust both his judgement and skill as a luthier.

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## Dave Kirkpatrick

I'm having Max Girouard make me a new mandolin and I couldn't decide between spruce and cedar for the top. Bruce Harvie's advice about letting the builder make the call was exactly what I needed to hear, so I've left that decision in Max's hands, which are far more capable than mine. Thanks.

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## multidon

Missing from this discussion is the fact that the term “cedar” can be almost as confusing as “mahogany”. Just like woods called “mahogany” collectively, there are a number of different species lumped under the “cedar” terminology. They get grouped there mainly because they all share the characteristic of being aromatic. For the sake of accuracy, only the genus Cedrus is true cedar. Therefore all of the cedars used in North American instrument making are cedars only in a more liberal usage of the term. We often see Western Red Cedar (Thuja plicata), with a very straight grain and more yellowish red color. It is quite soft with a Janka hardness of 350. Much less common in instrument making is Eastern Red Cedar (Juniperius virginiana). If is much redder than western and much harder with a Janka of 900. It’s more difficult to use for instrument making, because the grain is often not straight and it is also often knotty. Dulcimer makers in particular seem to like the knots. Then there is Port Orford Cedar (Chamaecyparius lawsoniana). More rare, resembling Western Red Cedar in appearance but harder. The grain is very straight, and the wood is used for arrow shafts as well as instruments. And of course there is the ubiquitous Spanish Cedar (Cedrela odorata), often used for cigar boxes and guitar necks, with a Janka of 600 and an appearance more like mahogany than the rest of the cedars.

So you see, we have 4 different “cedars” being used for instrument making, and they are 4 different genera, each with unique properties. So it really is meaningless to call an instrument top “cedar” unless you are more specific.

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hank

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## Jeff Hildreth

multidon

"Then there is Port Orford Cedar (Chamaecyparius lawsoniana). More rare, resembling Western Red Cedar in appearance but harder."

In no way does Port Orford Cedar resemble western red cedar.
Port Orford is a cypress and is more closely related to Alaskan Yellow Cedar.. also a cypress.

Western red cedar is .. duh.. red or variants of red. 

Port Orford and Alaskan Yellow Cedar are.. duh.. yellow or cream colored and both have been used as substitutes for Spanish or Mediterranean cypress as is used in flamenco guitars. 

Western red cedar is soft and prone to splitting. Port Orford and Alaskan yellow have neither attribute.

Full disclosure.. Former wood broker of rare and exotic wood specializing in instrument grade and species.
I live in the middle of Port Orford territory and have quite a bit of both Port Orford and Alaska Yellow in my shop as well as the much more common Western Red Cedar..  Limes and Persimmons.
To Add.. I have about 20 Port Orford trees on my property.

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hank, 

multidon

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## multidon

My apologies Jeff. I guess when I said they “resembled” each other, I was mainly referring to the very straight grain. I did play a guitar with a Port Orford top once. Very nice guitar. As I recall it had a VERY slight reddish cast. Maybe the maker added a toner to make it look more like “cedar”?

I am not a fan of Western Cedar for the reasons you give above, the softness and propensity for splitting.

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## Dave Kirkpatrick

This is why I put this decision in the capable hands of Max Girouard.

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## Jeff Hildreth

No apology necessary.. wood is always a tough call.
If you would like a sample set of any of the fore mentioned.. let me know.. be glad to send some gratis. 
Everything I have is well aged.. at minimum, 20 years plus. and that is in my shop. Prior, hard to tell as most of it was harvested as downfall (with permits)

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multidon

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## MontanaMatt

My Weber is Port Orford, and rings like a bell, with lots of headroom for heavy picking.  Not woody or woofy.
But that is also how most high end Montana Webers sound, with any var. of top, IMO.

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## soliver

Ken Ratcliff just finished my SA Econo A with a Cedar top,... very very nice instrument with a very different tone from a spruce topped instrument. Very warm and dark... love it!... Working on a vid to post soon.

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## MontanaMatt

> Ken Ratcliff just finished my SA Econo A with a Cedar top,... very very nice instrument with a very different tone from a spruce topped instrument. Very warm and dark... love it!... Working on a vid to post soon.


Per the prior delineations, which Cedar?

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## multidon

Indeed, Jeff, wood is always a tough call from the musician standpoint. All we get to see is the finished product. Even if just a clear finish is used, the finish can affect how we see the color dramatically. And we also usually don’t know what kind of toners have been used. We hardly ever get to see the raw wood. As you can see by my post, I do try to get as much information about the specific species of wood in my instruments as I can. The lumber industry does not make this easy, the way they play fast and loose with terminology! Don’t even get me started on “mahogany”! I still haven’t forgiven Martin for using sipo and calling it “mahogany”!

Another wood that’s been mentioned here is redwood. From the sequoia tree I think? Related to the cypress family. Janka hardness in the 400’s. My wife has a dulcimer with a figured redwood top that’s absolutely stunning to look at. I would be willing to bet redwood would make a nice mandolin top, it has a good strength to weight ratio. Port Orford too. But I just don’t think I would be comfortable with Western Red Cedar.

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## pheffernan

> This is why I put this decision in the capable hands of Max Girouard.


As I recall, a couple of pickers with better knowledge of wood (Bruce Harvie) and mandolins (Don Grieser) than I have raved in these parts about a certain stash of bog cedar that Max had been using.

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## Dave Kirkpatrick

> As I recall, a couple of pickers with better knowledge of wood (Bruce Harvie) and mandolins (Don Grieser) than I have raved in these parts about a certain stash of bog cedar that Max had been using.


That's right. I had a mandola made with a top from that batch of bog cedar and it was phenomenal. I requested cedar then and that's what I got, but I've always felt I should've let Max make the call on what wood to use. I've had the opportunity to play several of his instruments, most with spruce tops, and have been impressed by every one of them.

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## Max Girouard

From left to right, western red cedar (_Thuja plicata_) Port Orford cedar (_Chamaecyparis lawsoniana_), Alaskan yellow cedar (_Cupressus nootkatensis_) and redwood (_Sequoioideae_).  On the redwood I'm not entirely sure if it is _Sequoiadendron giganteum_ or _Sequoia sempervirens_. Also, the Port Orford cedar I have shown is an unusual sample in regard to the visible flame but it's all I have at the moment.

As for the Janka harness numbers, these are only averages and don't account for the variation and overlap in species.  For instance, I have some WRC that is harder and more stiff than a certain pile of Engelmann I've have in the shop.  At the same time I also have another pile of Engelmann that is just as hard as some of the red spruce I have at the moment. 

I've built a couple dozen mandolin family instruments to include mandola's octaves and even a mandocello with western red cedar.  It is also very popular in the classical guitar building world.   I have found some raw lumber with internal splits or wind shakes, but most of what we processed came out fine.  It helps to have a good wood supplier like Bruce to weed out the bad stuff.  Western red cedar is also one of the most dimensional stable woods you can use for a top in regards to shrinking twisting and warping.  With all that being said, I wouldn't worry about it for use in an instrument, provided it is a good piece of wood to begin with.

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dang, 

hank, 

multidon, 

Northwest Steve

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## hank

Max your comment on the dimensional stability of WRC brings to thought a couple questions?  Do some woods absorb moisture more readily than others?  What is the relationship between a woods dimensional stability and its porosity.  We seal the outside but the interior is open to soak up whatever moisture available when the case is opened.  Generally there isn’t much endgrain exposed if any inside the instrument.  Now that we have cooked wood options does autoclave oven drying change the woods absorbent qualities as well as making it more brittle and prone to splitting?  I wonder if woods like cocobolo with oily pores could be improved for adhesion thru autoclaving.

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## foldedpath

> Another wood thats been mentioned here is redwood. From the sequoia tree I think? Related to the cypress family. Janka hardness in the 400s. My wife has a dulcimer with a figured redwood top thats absolutely stunning to look at. I would be willing to bet redwood would make a nice mandolin top, it has a good strength to weight ratio. Port Orford too. But I just dont think I would be comfortable with Western Red Cedar.


I'm still playing the redwood-top Lebeda I mentioned in 2009 earlier in the thread (link here). It's holding up fine; the top hasn't sunk or split, no additional dings aside from the first one I put on it, soon after buying it. The top feels hard like spruce, doesn't take a dent from a fingernail. There is the tiniest spot of separation at one area of binding that I've been keeping an eye on, but it's stable and not progressing. Just needs a dab of filler. 

Tone-wise, this redwood top mandolin still sounds great to my ears. It's not a classic Gibson/Bluegrass bark, a little shy on "warmth" compared to others I've heard, but it has a very "forward" and clear tone. It keeps up with the fiddlers in an Irish session, and doesn't disappear completely even when played along with smallpipes in a Scottish session. 

I'm a little surprised we don't see more redwood-top mandolins. Jiri Lebeda was one of the few that put several on the market. I haven't seen redwood used much on acoustic guitars either. Maybe it's because it can be so variable in hardness? I know redwood can be pretty soft, like the wood used in picnic tables, so maybe it's not easy to find the harder stuff.

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## multidon

I’ve read that old growth redwood is harder, heavier, and denser than lumber from second growth trees. Old growth would probably make better tops generally speaking, but I don’t know if any is left out there unless someone has a stash.

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## George R. Lane

Port Orford cedar makes great arrows for long bows.

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## Br1ck

I believe the redwood the SAs have been made of is reclaimed timber from buildings. There is also the reclaimed sinker from ols submerged logs, a topic in and of itself.

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## Dale Ludewig

I've made 4 mandolins (several more in progress) from some redwood I got from Spruce. Unbelievable stuff. Some, at least, is from the Sullivan stash. About half the density or "normal" redwood but with the same rigidity. Incredibly light and very loud. I've kept 2, an ff hole and an oval hole. They both need flat-wound nickel type strings or they're a little harsh. When you match the string to the instrument, the tone and presence is remarkable. I personally have concerns about it splitting, so I've bound the ff holes or oval holes as kind of insurance.

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## Max Girouard

> Max your comment on the dimensional stability of WRC brings to thought a couple questions?  Do some woods absorb moisture more readily than others?  What is the relationship between a woods dimensional stability and its porosity.  We seal the outside but the interior is open to soak up whatever moisture available when the case is opened.  Generally there isnt much endgrain exposed if any inside the instrument.  Now that we have cooked wood options does autoclave oven drying change the woods absorbent qualities as well as making it more brittle and prone to splitting?  I wonder if woods like cocobolo with oily pores could be improved for adhesion thru autoclaving.


From my experience, the more dense and oily woods will take on moisture more slowly, like they have their own natural finish.  A good expample is Lignum vitae which has such a high oil concentration as well as being extremely dense that you can spray water on it and it will bead up, whereas if you sprayed a piece of maple or spruce, it would quickly soak into the wood.

I don't have an answer to your question about a relationship between woods dimensional stability and its porosity.

As I was told by a guy selling torrefied wood, treated woods will not take on moisture from the outside environment.  He was referring to the extreme torrefaction they use to treat lumber for outdoor use.  It looks like dark chocolate when it is done.  The wood I have personally used for a couple mandolins has been torrefied at much lower times and temperatures and has a honey amber to dark amber appearance.  These samples did absorb moisture when we wet them to raise the grain during sanding.

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hank

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## treidm

So if a luthier uses "torrefaction" for wood. is that a form of heat treating the wood to speed the aging process and remove excess moisture, and thus stabilizing the wood?

Very interesting subject...
Reid

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## hank

Max, I asked because I had a reclaimed Claro Walnut stump carved plate and a Carpathian Spruce carved plate out when a sudden high humidity hit our area.  The Claro stayed flat but the walnut bowed slightly.  The bow was lateral like the sweep of a gouge from one side to the other.  Both examples were quartered two piece plates. The walnut returned to it’s original flat condition shortly after the humidity went down.  As an opposite example my thicker black walnut neck for those plates stayed straight without change during our wet conditions.

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## George R. Lane

Uh, Hank

You might want to read your second sentence, It states the Claro Walnut both stayed flat and and bowed at the same time.

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hank

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## soliver

> Per the prior delineations, which Cedar?


My bad, MM, its Western Red. I had met up with David Mold (OldSausage) to give his Siverangel A a try and loved the tone. His was WRC over Soft Maple so I had Ken Duplicate that. 







As a side note relative to the discussion re Redwood, Ken Ratcliff is regularly using old growth Redwood on many of his Silverangels, some of them being the "sinker" redwood which has been dredged up from the bottom of bodies of water (as mentioned by Br1ck above).

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## hank

Thank you George.  I should proof read more. The Carpathian Spruce stayed flat while the Claro Walnut slightly bowed.

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## Max Girouard

> So if a luthier uses "torrefaction" for wood. is that a form of heat treating the wood to speed the aging process and remove excess moisture, and thus stabilizing the wood?
> 
> Very interesting subject...
> Reid


Yes, the wood is put into a special kiln that draws out all the oxygen.  The wood can then be heated past the combustion point of wood without igniting.  There are several people I know of that are using torrefication and have been experimenting with lower temperatures and times to get different "roasts".  I have not had a lot of experience with torrefied spruce, building with our first top now.  I've built a handful of instruments with treated maple, and I feel that difference was a boost in volume as compared to the untreated instruments we built at the same time.  As far as aging the wood, I wouldn't say it's doing that as it's completely changing the structure of the wood in a way that nature wouldn't through time.  Maybe similar in some ways, but definitely different.  It will be interesting to see how the torrefied pieces sound as they age. 




> Max, I asked because I had a reclaimed Claro Walnut stump carved plate and a Carpathian Spruce carved plate out when a sudden high humidity hit our area.  The Claro stayed flat but the walnut bowed slightly.  The bow was lateral like the sweep of a gouge from one side to the other.  Both examples were quartered two piece plates. The walnut returned to its original flat condition shortly after the humidity went down.  As an opposite example my thicker black walnut neck for those plates stayed straight without change during our wet conditions.


I remember that happening when I was just building as a hobby, and did not have a dehumidifier in my "shop" which was a corner of a dining room.  I've had that happen with maple as well as walnut and birch.  Definitely helps to get the humidity under control in your shop to prevent that from happening.  But it can also happen if the wood has internal stresses that are released during carving.  Those examples usually don't return to flat, but can be convince to straighten out with clamp pressure.

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hank

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## Papalobo

My mandolin is a port orford cedar top / myrtle body F5 style ,  I would agree that the cedar top allows for a slightly warmer , i.e. more lower mids and more open sound .  The character of the luthier still comes through ( Weber) .

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MontanaMatt

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