# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  What kind of mando for Celtic/Irish music?

## michaelpthompson

I'm just new to the mandolin. I've got an old bowlback I got off eBay, but it's turning out to be a challenge to get it playable.

Currently, I play guitar, mostly Irish pub songs, and I'm learning rhythm guitar for session tunes. I'm not much of a picker, more of a strummer, or whanger. Any recommendations on what kind of mandolin would be best for me?

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## Jill McAuley

You can play Irish/Celtic music on any kind of mandolin - in Ireland you'll come across folk playing flat tops, carved tops, A's, F's, oval hole, f-hole, bowl back - it's all good. For meself the "best mandolin" is the one with the "best" playability. 

Cheers,
Jill

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## Dave Hanson

In the great Irish band ' The Dubliners ' both Barney and John have played a Fylde Octavious mandolin for quite a few years now.

Dave H

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## Bertram Henze

What Jill said, plus look for max. volume. 
If you want to play melody in a noisy session, you'll have to cut through to be audible amongst fiddles and boxes. OTOH volume is hard to predict and independent from the type of mandolin.

If you want to play accompaniment, a larger member of the mandolin family is advisable, e.g. an octave mandolin or a bouzouki.

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## Gerry Cassidy

> I'm just new to the mandolin. I've got an old bowlback I got off eBay, but it's turning out to be a challenge to get it playable.
> 
> Currently, I play guitar, mostly Irish pub songs, and I'm learning rhythm guitar for session tunes. I'm not much of a picker, more of a strummer, or whanger. Any recommendations on what kind of mandolin would be best for me?


Along the lines of what Jill said: Just find a mandolin that feels and sounds good to you, no matter the look/design, and have a ball!  :Smile:

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## Steve L

> In the great Irish band ' The Dubliners ' both Barney and John have played a Fylde Octavious mandolin for quite a few years now.
> 
> Dave H


I think the "Octavius" model Fyldes are for long scaled instruments like bouzoukis with octave courses, but they do make very fine mandolins well worth considering.

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## Schlegel

There seems to be a something of a preference for oval-holed flat topped instruments, but that may seem so just because ITM does not require chopping, so there's no reason for needing an archtop instrument with its extra cost.  Certainly both work.  Mandolin is not a traditional Irish instrument, so there's no "traditional" choice.   Personally, I like the oval hole sound, but this is a situation where you are free to go with whatever sound pleases you the most.

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## allenhopkins

If you're looking for a mandolin to strum chords on, I'd suggest an oval-hole -- either carved-top, flat-top, or "bent"-top -- rather than an f-hole instrument.  The oval-hole instruments seem to "ring" longer, which would be a positive for your style.  The Big Muddy US-made instruments get uniformly good reviews here on the Cafe; *here's* their website.

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## Jock

I think Jill nails it regarding finding an instrument that suits your playing. I went looking for a new mandolin, mainly for traditional scots/irish music and went thinking oval hole. The mandolin I came home with would be right at home in a bluegrass line up, f holed archtop, woody loads of bark but also plenty of cut that sounds just fine for stm/itm, to my ear at least. A ringing mandolin sounds good solo duet or small ensemble, but much of that brilliance is lost in a crowd where as a more focused tone seems less affected.

Horses for courses. So the mandolin, IMO, for Irish music; would be the bird in the hand  :Smile:

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## Paul Kotapish

I play scads of Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, and Quebec tunes on an F-style instrument because that particular instrument suits my playing and I don't much like switching instruments around, but if I were going to choose an instrument for trad Irish/Scottish tunes exclusively, I'd opt for an oval-hole, archtop instrument, preferably either an old Gibson A (as per Andy Irvine or Marla Fibish) or a Stefan Sobell (as per Dave Richardson et al).

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## JeffD

A Stefan Sobell instrument would be an excellent choice.

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## Brent Hutto

I never play chop chords and never will. But I find the sound of a flat-top, oval hole mandolin very disappointing. Gotta be an arched top and ff-holes for me no matter what kind of music. Same holds for recordings. I tend to like the sound of ff-hole archtop mandolins even if they're playing a medley of traditional Irish jigs. Good tone is good tone.

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## Steve-o

Ok, here's a choice that is clearly "outside the box" for ITM:  National Reso-phonic RM-1!  I am seriously thinking of one for large sessions where any other mandolin is lost amongst the fiddles.  These puppies are LOUD!  But amazingly sweet in tone - not metallic sounding at all.  So my question is, would you be asked to leave it at home if you brought it to your local session?  

(Note - there is some discussion on this in the National RM-1 Social Group)

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Mandolin Deep Cuts

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## Ed Goist

> ...Gotta be an arched top and ff-holes for me no matter what kind of music. Same holds for recordings. I tend to like the sound of ff-hole archtop mandolins even if they're playing a medley of traditional Irish jigs. Good tone is good tone.


I find it really hard to disagree with this. As much as I love the look, concept, and vibe of the oval hole mandolin, I just keep coming back to the ff-hole archtop mandolin for its versatility and overall superior tone. 

I'm coming to believe that the way to most effectively achieve tonal variation in multiple mandolins is to consider different builders, differing degrees of arching, different tonewood, and different bracing, but all still with ff soundholes.

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## Bertram Henze

> I tend to like the sound of ff-hole archtop mandolins even if they're playing a medley of traditional Irish jigs. Good tone is good tone.


The good thing about ITM is that instrument style is hardly ever discussed - you can turn up with whatever you like at a session. 

As a last resort, if someone complains about your f-holes being appropriate, you can always argue that fiddlers seem to prefer them and you haven't seen many oval-hole fiddles yet.

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## Jock

> A Stefan Sobell instrument would be an excellent choice.


Sure would and I'm familiar with several, 4 & 5 course mandolins octaves and zukes. For many it's the must have instruments but there are a few Sobell players starting to look at american instruments and one fellow of my acquaintance, who has a few Sobell's of different flavors, is now playing an american archtop f hole mandolin as his main session axe.

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## Bruce Moffatt

> I never play chop chords and never will. But I find the sound of a flat-top, oval hole mandolin very disappointing. Gotta be an arched top and ff-holes for me no matter what kind of music. Same holds for recordings. I tend to like the sound of ff-hole archtop mandolins even if they're playing a medley of traditional Irish jigs. Good tone is good tone.


ff holes does not = good tone. Sure they are good but the inference that A hole mandolins do not have good tone doesn't stand up to scrutiny. A good, well made A hole mandolin will produce a deep, complex tone that is perfect for Celtic/Irish music. Have a listen to a Peter Coombe A model for example.

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## Mike Thomas

> Ok, here's a choice that is clearly "outside the box" for ITM:  National Reso-phonic RM-1!  I am seriously thinking of one for large sessions where any other mandolin is lost amongst the fiddles.  These puppies are LOUD!  But amazingly sweet in tone - not metallic sounding at all.  So my question is, would you be asked to leave it at home if you brought it to your local session?  
> 
> (Note - there is some discussion on this in the National RM-1 Social Group)


I strung my RM1 with Thomastik strings and brought it to a couple of different sessions.  No complaints; in fact some folks started asking me to bring it.

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## Brent Hutto

> ff holes does not = good tone. Sure they are good but the inference that A hole mandolins do not have good tone doesn't stand up to scrutiny. A good, well made A hole mandolin will produce a deep, complex tone that is perfect for Celtic/Irish music. Have a listen to a Peter Coombe A model for example.


Bruce,

I'm talking entirely about what my ears like to hear. Many people whose opinions I greatly respect dig the classical oval-hole tone and that's the way their ears work. But having heard some examples of what is considered outstanding "as good as it gets" oval-hole tone I'm struck by the fact that any good ff-hole archtop sounds better to me. There's just a quality to even the best ovals that sounds compressed and unpleasant to me.

I could have better stated it as "Regardless of the style of music being played, my preference for the ff-hole tone trumps everything else whether as a player or a listener".

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## Jock

> ff holes does not = good tone. Sure they are good but the inference that A hole mandolins do not have good tone doesn't stand up to scrutiny. *A good, well made A hole mandolin will produce a deep, complex tone that is perfect for Celtic/Irish music*. Have a listen to a Peter Coombe A model for example.


I hear you Bruce and to be honest that was what I was looking for when I went out to find a new mandolin. I researched it for about a year checking out every mandolin i came across, bugging all my mandolin pals and settled on the idea of an archtop type oval mandolin best suiting my needs by the end of the exercise. I rejected many and eventually went on a 2000 mile round trip. After no small amount of looking I eventually found the mandolin that talked to me in the price range that seemed right. It wasn't an oval though, which was surprising, but I'm long enough in the tooth to trust my ears.

My eventual choice was made by some serious comparing on the day (at the UK's quality mandolin superstore, in Brighton england). I tried this particular instrument out against a multitude of others, oval and f hole. My choice just had that something that kept me coming back to it and using it as a bench mark, but at a $1000 less than the next contender, also an f hole, it was a simple choice in the end (poor guy must have been glad to see the back of me when I left the shop). The ovals just weren't doing it for me that day, not in the sub $3500 class at any rate. So although it isn't an oval and in theory not that suited to insular traditional music, it's my bird in the hand and therefore, perfect for me  :Grin:

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## Brent Hutto

Jock,

Interesting experience. I hope to make a pilgrammage to Brighton one summer or another myself.

But my question is, what blue-ribbon panel of experts validated the "theory" that oval holes ought to be suited for trad music in the first place? I have a feeling that is just one of the thousands of self-propogating memes that flourish in the Internet Age with no specific origin and no basis in anything other than hearsay. I can't think of any _a priori_ physical or acoustic principle that leads from that form of music to its production by an oval-shaped hole in the soundboard of a mandolin.

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## Jill McAuley

> ff holes does not = good tone. Sure they are good but the inference that A hole mandolins do not have good tone doesn't stand up to scrutiny. A good, well made A hole mandolin will produce a deep, complex tone that is perfect for Celtic/Irish music. Have a listen to a Peter Coombe A model for example.


ff hole instrument = a mandolin of any body shape that has ff sound holes.

Oval hole instrument = a mandolin of any body shape that has an oval sound hole

A = body shape/style

Bruce, you don't list where you're located, so forgive me if in your area oval hole mandolins are indeed referred to as A hole mandolins.  For myself when someone refers to an A style mandolin it means body style, not soundhole shape.

Cheers,
Jill

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## JeffD

It is hard to argue that this would sound better on an f hole arch top mandolin.

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## michaelpthompson

> Ok, here's a choice that is clearly "outside the box" for ITM:  National Reso-phonic RM-1!  I am seriously thinking of one for large sessions where any other mandolin is lost amongst the fiddles.  These puppies are LOUD!  But amazingly sweet in tone - not metallic sounding at all.  So my question is, would you be asked to leave it at home if you brought it to your local session?


Well, there are sessions and there are seisúns :-).

As several people have pointed out, the mandolin is not a "traditional" Irish instrument in the first place, and any group that will welcome tenor banjos can't have too much problem with a resonator mandolin. However, you sometimes run into the TRAD police (I've heard them called less complimentary things.) who believe that the rules of the session are set in stone forever. They might have a problem with it, but fortunately for me, I play with more open-minded people.

If you think about it, beyond the harp, flute and Uilleann pipes, most of what is played in sessions today does not have its roots in Ireland or Celtic tradition anyway. The violin is basically of Italian origin, but even hard-core TRAD people don't have problems with fiddles in a seisún. A lot depends on what point in time you set the rules in stone.

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## michaelpthompson

> oval hole mandolins are indeed referred to as A hole mandolins?


I just hope I'm never referred to as an A-hole mandolinist. ;-)

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## Brent Hutto

> It is hard to argue that this would sound better on an f hole arch top mandolin.


Well who's to say what "better" would be. I've not heard many ff-hole 10-stringers myself. That's a great sound that puts the extra course to excellent use but the trebles still have that "thump, thump" thing going on that I find distracting. I know it's a sound a lot of people dig but to me it sounds less appealing than it would without the boxiness.

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## Bertram Henze

> I just hope I'm never referred to as an A-hole mandolinist. ;-)


 :Laughing: 
Let's face it, A-hole is a misnomer. We have to deal with many misnomers petrified with the years in the mandolin world (the CBOM section is one eldorado for misnomers), but I think we should nip this in the bud while we have the opportunity.

As Jill has pointed out, F and A don't stand for hole shapes. Listen to Jill. F and A are product series denominators used by Gibson that have survived in all archtop mandolins resembling their products; you can call this way of nomenclature tradition funny, but if you use it, please use it correctly:

F=with scroll
A=teardrop shape
4=oval hole
5=f-holes

Mix one letter and one number and get one archtop mandolin style.

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## Steve-o

> I just hope I'm never referred to as an A-hole mandolinist. ;-)


 :Laughing:  :Laughing: 

That's the best line I've heard here in recent memory.

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## foldedpath

> It is hard to argue that this would sound better on an f hole arch top mandolin.
> 
> (Dan's Cittern clip)


Sure, but I think it's important to distinguish between what's "better" in a solo context like that clip, vs. what works well in a rowdy session with other instruments, or a band recording where the instrument has to find a pocket in the mix. 

I think oval-hole instruments sound _great_ when played alone at home, or in a solo recording. For me, that's where they shine. That same balanced and sweet tone doesn't mix easily when playing unison melody alongside a powerful instrument like a fiddle, or border pipes. The more focused tone of a good f-hole archtop mandolin has a better chance of being heard, in my experience. 

That's why I play an F5 (f-hole) mandolin, and an F5-style (f-hole) archtop octave mandolin. I hang out with a lot of fiddlers. You can't swing a cat in this town without hitting one, so I need to play an instrument that has a chance of being heard, and a timbre that mixes well with fiddle. I've thought about experimenting with one of those National RM-1's. I'm guess I'm not quite ready to give up the pure woody tone of a more traditional mandolin. I still have some work to do on my right hand technique for pulling volume and tone. If I run into a real roadblock there, I might try one of those Nationals. Meanwhile I'm happy with my Lebeda F5-style with the redwood top.

I can certainly understand why anyone else might prefer playing an oval-hole instrument in any context, including sessions, if that's the sound that says "Irish traditional" to your ears. As for me, I don't think the instrument has been involved in this genre long enough to establish any particular timbre as the classic, must-have sound. We're all still working on it.
 :Smile:

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## Narayan Kersak

I like flat tops, with an oval hole.  Although I would like to get a nice arch top octave mandolin.  I think that would be great too.  A few folks I know have arch tops, Weber, and they comment on the tinniness of the sound compared to the openness of the flat top I have.  Although, I think their mandolins sound great!  It's up to you really.

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## Bertram Henze

I cannot confirm that f-hole vs. oval-hole make a volume difference per se. Pick choice, pick angle, string gauge, bridge choice are factors much bigger than that. Just my experience. 
I started with a flattop OM being hardly heard through the session noise, worked on all of the above, and today, with the same instrument, I am actually being thanked for using a different, not-so-loud pick sometimes (whatever that says about me as a player, but at least they hear me   :Grin:  ).

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## Fran

Get an acoustic-electric mandolin!

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## Jock

> Jock,
> 
> Interesting experience. I hope to make a pilgrammage to Brighton one summer or another myself.


Well worth the visit Brent, more handmade quality mandolins on one shelf available for sale than in the whole of Scotland, if you added a second shelf of mandos you'd have more available than the rest of the UK and Ireland combined, I'd think. And they have many more than that. So for the A/B thing it's unrivaled this side of the pond, also quite a few second hand instruments. 

Then there is the stack of single luthier guitars. Last time I was at Victoria station in London, the Brighton train was winking at me from the opposite platform, but on that occasion it would have been like going fishing without the worms. Once I've saved some more I may go checkout the guitars.

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## Brent Hutto

This past summer I had hoped to visit Trevor but it would have been totally a window-shopping and social call. So when a friend offered to take me out for a round of golf that afternoon (which I could afford!) I went that way instead. Next time I hope to both visit and have a few "bob" in my pocket, if that's the right lingo. 

Getting to Brighton from the Gatwick south terminal that I always fly into is so easy, not going is a great waste.

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## JeffD

> I can certainly understand why anyone else might prefer playing an oval-hole instrument in any context, including sessions, if that's the sound that says "Irish traditional" to your ears. As for me, I don't think the instrument has been involved in this genre long enough to establish any particular timbre as the classic, must-have sound. We're all still working on it.


You are quite right, of course, and I meant my comment half kidding. There is a way for me that it sounds "best", but it is also the sound that predominated when I first started taking the traditional music seriously. Limited by my own expeiences. Can't see myself because I am in the way. But still... it sounds so good.

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## Jock

> Getting to Brighton from the Gatwick south terminal that I always fly into is so easy, not going is a great waste.


And on a nice day it's quite a pleasant walk from the station, next time  :Mandosmiley:

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## Jim Bevan

For sessions, I had been using a Collings MTO at home, and a Rigel A+ Deluxe on the road. I recently had Pete Langdell make a 10-string mandola for me, and I had to decide between the oval hole or the ff's. The conventional wisdom is that an oval hole sounds louder to the player, but that the ff's project more. I A/B'd the two mandos: my daughter played them for me, and I stood about 18 feet away. They're both loud instruments, but it did seem to be true -- the Rigel, which seems quieter to me when I play it, sounded clearer from a distance. The Collings seemed as loud, kind of, but a different kind of loudness -- it produced lots of sound but the actual notes seemed more lost within that sound. (Of course, was I A/B-ing ovals and ff's, or Collings and Rigels? Hmm...) Whatever, the Rigel just sounded, from 18 feet away, nicer, clearer, prettier.
I went with the ff's for the mandola, and I'm glad I did. I think I'm producing a nicer sound because I don't need to play as hard. An oval hole may produce a beautiful Celtic-y tone, but playing it hard kind of defeats the pretty tone.

This is not by any means a thorough summation of the whole picture -- I've still never tried a Sobell...

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## Jill McAuley

I think Jim's hit the nail on the head there - I find that if I'm playing my Vintage A hard the tone just kind of goes all muddled - if I back off it sounds awesome. By the end of the year I should be taking possession of a Hilburn A5, so definitely looking forward to having both oval hole and f-hole mandolins in my small herd.

Cheers,
Jill

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## Tim2723

> I'm just new to the mandolin. I've got an old bowlback I got off eBay, but it's turning out to be a challenge to get it playable.
> 
> Currently, I play guitar, mostly Irish pub songs, and I'm learning rhythm guitar for session tunes. I'm not much of a picker, more of a strummer, or whanger. Any recommendations on what kind of mandolin would be best for me?


If it's strumming rhythym mandolin for pub tunes you're after (as opposed to the fancy fingerwork of the session players), then you're right up my alley.  The Ovation MM-68 has been my nearly-constant companion for 15 years of playing those songs in the pub.  Unplugged it's loud enough to compete.  Plugged in it's as loud as you want it to be.  Its sound is a cross between the oval-hole flat-tops and the bowlbacks used in the early days of mandolin in Irish music.  It has the throaty voice heard in the large-body 'Celtic' designs that many builders now offer. It has excellent playability, is as rugged as can be, and has a tuning stability that's legendary.  As the others have said, there is no one particular 'Celtic' mandolin, so why limit your choices to only 'traditional' designs?

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## 8ch(pl)

It is hard to beat a second hand Mid Missouri or Big Muddy.  There is one in the classifieds for $350 with a Hard case.  Excellent bargain.

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## michaelpthompson

> If it's strumming rhythym mandolin for pub tunes you're after (as opposed to the fancy fingerwork of the session players), then you're right up my alley.  The Ovation MM-68 has been my nearly-constant companion for 15 years of playing those songs in the pub.  Unplugged it's loud enough to compete.  Plugged in it's as loud as you want it to be.


Have to admit, that's a really cool looking mandolin. I like the unique style, and as you say, there is really no such thing as a "traditional" Irish or Celtic mandolin. Might really be something to look into.

ETA: After additional research, I really don't like the Cherry Cherry Burst one, but the black and the natural are nice looking mandos.

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## Tim2723

If you do become interested in it, there are more affordable models if you want to experiment without spending too much. They make the Celebrity and Applause versions.  The Celebrity is the same basic mandolin but built overseas.  The Applause is a rather cheap copy and frankly, I don't recommend it.

If your local Trad Police don't like mandolins, they won't like the Ovation on basic principles.  If they accept the mandolin, some may reject the unconventional shape and materials. But if those guys close their eyes they often love the Ovation because it sounds similar to the old recordings from the 1970s (like the Corries for instance).  The natural finish helps it look a little more conventional. The black one is pretty sexy but shows every fingerprint and smudge.

The history of the mandolin in Irish/Celtic music as I understand it suggests that the instrument really came into its own during the late 1960s and early 1970s.  The players of that time were predominantly using bowl-backs and old Gibson Army-Navy pancake mandolins left over from WWI.  If that story has any validity to it, then it kind of makes sense to me to play an Ovation.  It has a flat top, a bowl back, and also includes the large body volume that's so popular in "Celtic" style instruments like the Fyldes and Sobells.  Played acoustically, it's loud enough to compete with my friend's beautiful Collings F-5, and has blown the doors off every flat top its come across including Big Muddys, at least when strumming chords.  And of course, it's an acoustic-electric for plugging in. So for me, it combines all the attributes I look for in a 'Celtic' mandolin.

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## michaelpthompson

Interesting Tim. I found a demo of the Celebrity model on YouTube and it sounded pretty good. The fellow said it's actually pretty quiet though, because of the shallow back and spruce top. He believed it was made to be played plugged in mostly, rather than acoustic. Any comments?

Also, I'm rather curious. If this is the same basic mandolin as the MM68, what makes the latter worth four times the price? Does the American construction actually make it four times better?

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## Tim2723

I suppose its acoustic performance, like any mandolin's, is a matter of perception.  My MM-68s have both been surprisingly loud to my ear.  I've played it against a fine F-5 and it held its own for chording, but not so much for melody play.  Maybe that's what the YouTube comment was about?  I have played the Celebrity and it does strike me as a bit quieter than the MM-68.  I don't know why though, or if my one test means anything.   I understand that the Celebrity model used a laminated top at one time, but that has been replaced by solid spruce, although probably not the same AAAA spruce as the MM-68. That may be part of it as well.

The Ovation is ultimately designed to be plugged in.  That's what it was built for.  But a great many players use them acoustically as well.  Plugged in they have a fairly remarkable tonal pallet (for a mandolin), and that's part of their appeal.  That, and their virtually feedback-proof amplified performance.  But I've never had any complaint against it acoustically, at least for the music I play.  The Bluegrass players don't like it, but it makes a very good Irish mandolin in my book.

The Celebrity version is the same basic mandolin, but by that I mean it has the same fundamental design characteristics.  But the US made version has a few fancier appointments.  Lots of gold, higher end tuners, all that stuff. I'm not sure about current production models, but at one time I believe the Celebrity used  conventional truss rod instead of the MM-68's graphite neck.  That alone might be a bit more money.    Today though, they may be virtually identical with the price simply reflected in point of origin.

Is it four times better?  Probably not.  I've played the Celebrity and know another Irish musician who uses one on stage with no problems.  The instrument I avoid is the low-end Applause model.  It has a laminate top, cheap tuners, and a very simplified pickup system.  The Celebrity would be my recommendation for someone who wants to try out Ovations on a budget.  You can always upgrade to the MM-68 later.

BTW, I hope the video you saw wasn't the GearWire one.  That guy meant well, but he has no idea of how to EQ the instrument and he doesn't realize that the mandolin is out of tune.  Here's one that shows the mandolin unplugged and in tune.  Read his comments as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da5GN...eature=related

Here's another unplugged demo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8ISj...eature=related

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## michaelpthompson

> BTW, I hope the video you saw wasn't the GearWire one.  That guy meant well, but he has no idea of how to EQ the instrument and he doesn't realize that the mandolin is out of tune.


Well, that explains a lot. Um, yes. GearWire.

I liked the two you posted. I could definitely hear a difference between plugged in and unplugged in the GearWire demo, and I was surprised at the flat tone when he was using the microphone instead of the onboard pre-amp. Yours much better illustrate the sound of the instrument itself. I especially liked Foggy Dew, as that's one of my favorite songs anyway. If I can learn to play it as well as he does, that would be great.

You've definitely got me intrigued about this mandolin. The rebel in me would just love to stare down the TRAD police in a session while playing it.

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## michaelpthompson

BTW, can you tell the difference between the Celebrity and the MM68 in photos? There's an MM68 listed on eBay for $499 that's got me intrigued.

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## foldedpath

> If your local Trad Police don't like mandolins, they won't like the Ovation on basic principles.  If they accept the mandolin, some may reject the unconventional shape and materials. But if those guys close their eyes they often love the Ovation because it sounds similar to the old recordings from the 1970s (like the Corries for instance).


Speaking as a part-time member of the Trad Police (I wrote the etiquette page for our session's web site)... wait, let me get out my badge... 

I doubt there are many open Irish pub sessions that would frown on a mandolin on _basic_ principles, whether it's an Ovation or anything else. It's a well-accepted class of instrument at this point, as long as it's joining in unison with the other melody players on the tunes and sets. There is always room in a session for someone who knows the tunes, and can join in the craic. 

Our session would welcome a player who fit that description, whether they walked in with an Ovation or a Sobell. The only time the Trad Police might get a little jumpy, is if a mandolin player tries to play chord backup instead of joining in the melody. In pub session tradition, it's considered mainly a melody instrument, for several very practical reasons. Playing chords works better in other contexts, like in a band playing vocal ballads ("pub songs") or worked-out instrumental arrangements. 




> The history of the mandolin in Irish/Celtic music as I understand it suggests that the instrument really came into its own during the late 1960s and early 1970s.


That's what I've been led to understand also, although again we're talking here mainly about how they started to show up in trad revival bands like Planxty, and more recently in groups like Dervish. I could be wrong here, but I get the impression that the use of mandolins in pub sessions has been a more recent thing in the last 10 or 20 years, following on the coat-tails of bouzoukis and trying to find a way to fit in among the louder melody instruments. 

Anyway, the main point I'm trying to emphasize here is that the post heading of "Celtic/Irish music" covers several very different situations -- from playing unison melody with other instruments in a pub session, to working out solo O'Carolan arrangements at home, to playing chords in a "Celtic" band playing vocal ballads in a loud bar. The same mandolin might not be optimal for all those situations. A good excuse for MAS, yes?
 :Smile:

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## Jesse Harmon

> I like flat tops, with an oval hole.  Although I would like to get a nice arch top octave mandolin.  I think that would be great too.  A few folks I know have arch tops, Weber, and they comment on the tinniness of the sound compared to the openness of the flat top I have.  Although, I think their mandolins sound great!  It's up to you really.


I suppose one persons tinniness is another persons brightness.  Tinniness implies cheapness but brightness seems to imply lightness a little more fragile or tighter sound, or perhaps less open, yet it seems to hold a real individual quality especially in a situation that it is not competing with louder instruments.

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## Tim2723

I think you're absolutely right, FP, an excellent excuse for MAS!

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## Tim2723

> BTW, can you tell the difference between the Celebrity and the MM68 in photos? There's an MM68 listed on eBay for $499 that's got me intrigued.


Yes, I believe that's an MM-68, but it's an old model.  Possibly more than 15 years old.  The giveaway is the rotary knob.  The description given has been cut and pasted and does NOT represent the MM-68 of that vintage. You can often find an actual MM-68 for around $600 - $800, in newer condition and with the updated appointments.  These instruments don't improve with age.  They last forever, but they don't improve.  So go for a new Celebrity with a warranty if you're going to spend $499, that's my advice.

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## michaelpthompson

I saw that rotary knob and wondered. Obviously doesn't have the newer digital electronics like the current models. Even the celebrity would probably have a better preamp than that, at least for control. Or perhaps not, I may be reading too much into the analog type control knob. After all, some people believe that nobody has yet improved on 1950s era humbucker pickups for electric guitars. :-)

Thanks for the tip, I was seriously jonesing for that from the description, but for what I'm doing, you're probably right about the Celebrity.

And FoldedPath, thanks for the tip. I've written etiquette guidelines for sessions myself, though I'm usually somewhat of an anarchist. A lot depends on the personality of the session. Some are very TRAD, others are more free form. The one I play now even allows sheet music!

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## mikeyes

> That's what I've been led to understand also, although again we're talking here mainly about how they started to show up in trad revival bands like Planxty, and more recently in groups like Dervish. I could be wrong here, but I get the impression that the use of mandolins in pub sessions has been a more recent thing in the last 10 or 20 years, following on the coat-tails of bouzoukis and trying to find a way to fit in among the louder melody instruments.


Mick Moloney played the mandolin in his first album of tunes and was playing it in London in 1969 when I first saw him.  Mandolins have been around the scene for as long as the Mckenna inspired banjo has and possibly longer than zouks.  The use in pub sessions may be later, however.

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## Jill McAuley

Aye, there's a track on "Paddy in the Smoke" (live recording of London pub sessions) that features a mandolin playing priest if I'm not mistaken, circa '69-'70? Would have to check the liner notes for exact tune, player and date recorded...

Cheers,
Jill

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## Daithio

Capt. Francis O'Neill refers to the mandolin in his "Irish Minstrels and Musicians" (1913).  He writes of a Thomas F Kiley, a friend of Edward Cronin (who contributed many tunes to O'Neill's collections), "'The Connemara Fiddle,' as we facetiously termed the mandolin, was his favorite instrument, however.  In playing Irish dance music he displayed a facility of execution almost inconceivable."

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## Jill McAuley

> Aye, there's a track on "Paddy in the Smoke" (live recording of London pub sessions) that features a mandolin playing priest if I'm not mistaken, circa '69-'70? Would have to check the liner notes for exact tune, player and date recorded...
> 
> Cheers,
> Jill


Ok, got home and looked this up: Paddy in the Smoke was first released in 1968, and the recordings were done on location at London's "The Favourite" pub - in the liner notes it mentions 1966 as being when the first session was played at The Favourite. The track in question featuring the mandolin playing priest features "Father O'Keeffe" on the mandolin and "Tommy Maguire" on accordion, playing a few jigs - "Condon's Frolics/James McMahon's Favourite".

Cheers,
Jill

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## Avi Ziv

Jill - that's a fabulous recording. Been listening to it for a number of years

Cheers,

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## fatt-dad

I'm kind of with Brent on this one.  I say go loud or go home.  The arched top f-hole mandolins (a-body is my preference) are just louder - you can hear yourself in a jam.  Think about your fiddle players:  You think they have one for Irish, bluegrass and old-time?  No - they have one in standard tuning and another in cross tuning.  Nobody messed with different body or hole shapes.  Nobody started using black walnut or mahogany.  It's setup and technique.

Got to be heard though!

f-d

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## Paul Kotapish

From 1966:

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## Eddie Sheehy

Derek Wardell of the Wolfe Tones was playing mandolins in the 60's - made an impact on me then.  I had an old bowlback that I noodled on in the late 60's.  A few local musicians also had mandos in the late 60's.  I credit Derek as the innovator.  The zouk was introduced in the late 60's by Moynahen, Lunney, and Irvine.

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## Jill McAuley

> Jill - that's a fabulous recording. Been listening to it for a number of years
> 
> Cheers,


Indeed it is - great selection of players and great selection of tunes!

Cheers,
Jill

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## michaelpthompson

Just downloaded and listened to it. Some great craic in there all right.

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## chasgrav

I'll second Steve-o's suggestion of a National RM-1 resonator mandolin.  I have one that I use for Irish sessions (not bluegrass, though).  It's loud, but sweet and pleasing to the ear.  It meshes very well with fiddles, boxes, etc....  It's also beautiful, and extremely well-crafted.  Great for Celtic, blues, jazz, oldtime, folk, etc....  Just not a great bluegrass instrument, IMO.

My Gibson A50 is very sad and lonely and may be headed for the classifieds soon.

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## michaelpthompson

Have to admit, I really like that vintage look. I've played in sessions with banjos and resonator guitars and nobody objected, and this actually looks nicer. And I hear good things about the way they sound too.

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## Tim2723

Even as the Ovation Guy, I'll third (?) the National Resonator for the job at hand.  Very loud, beautiful instrument.  Maybe bit more than the budget.  They're around the two grand mark.  Not that much more than a new MM-68 though.

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## danb

Late to the party here- but for what it's worth..

the best mando for Irish is the one you have. Pick it on sound, what floats your personal boat, what you can afford, what brings you joy. Be really up-front with yourself about that decision, and never let the instrument hold you back mentally. 

There are great ones in the big bucks range, but the biggest thing about picking your axe is mental. You gotta love it

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## Bertram Henze

> There are great ones in the big bucks range, but the biggest thing about picking your axe is mental. You gotta love it


Yep, sometimes it takes a reminder what is important.
Who would go to a party with an escort because his wife is too ugly?

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## Tim2723

I'll agree that you should love the instrument you choose, but the instrument has to do the job in order for you to love it in the long run.  I can't say how many mandolins I've really loved playing yet rejected simply because they couldn't do what I needed them to. How many of us end up with a mandolin that mostly gathers dust because it isn't the one we need for the jam?  Both criteria need to be met.   There are thousands of posts here that go something like "I love my XYZ, but I need something louder, brighter, darker, yadda yadda."

Isn't that kind of what this thread started out as?  "I've got this mandolin but I need something else..."

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## Bertram Henze

> Isn't that kind of what this thread started out as?  "I've got this mandolin but I need something else..."


If I need something else, I don't really love it. But some might ask this question on behalf of complete strangers in a session, and those are the ones who don't count.

It does its job for me => I love it.
It does its job for somebody else => nothing

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## Tim2723

Well yeah, Bertram, that's pretty much it.  You might love the style, the look, the finish, the playability, the tone, the mojo, everything.  But if it's not loud enough, then you won't end up loving it. Or rearrange those in any order you choose and add others as you see fit.  They all have to work to be the prefect mandolin.

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## Brent Hutto

I don't want to run afoul of JeffD but personally I would not participate in any gathering for which my favorite instrument does not suffice. If I have a good-sounding, fun to play, well made ff-hole mandolin I'm not about to go blow a whole evening of my life sitting around "making music" on some instrument I don't like as well just to fit in or so I can hear what I'm playing. 

But perhaps I undervalue the sheer joy of having my ears assaulted by fiddles, banjos and resonators for a few hours. :Crying:

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## Bertram Henze

> perhaps I undervalue the sheer joy of having my ears assaulted by fiddles, banjos and resonators for a few hours.


Seriously, you probably do  :Laughing: 
Amongst the best sessions I ever attended were the ones I emerged from with tinnitus in my ears.  :Mandosmiley:

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## Tim2723

> ...personally I would not participate in any gathering for which my favorite instrument does not suffice..


But if your favorite instrument seldom sufficed, would it remain your favorite for long?

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## Brent Hutto

Chicken and egg I guess. If I spent most of my time in loud sessions perhaps it would not have become my favorite. But I don't so it did but if I did it wouldn't have. Or something like that.

What's the old saying? A chicken is just an egg's way of making more eggs.

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## Jill McAuley

I think Dan B's post hits the nail on the head.

Also, for folks who are mentioning "what if you love your mandolin but it's not loud enough, so it's not up to the job?" - well here's my tuppence worth: we're mandolin players, we're not going to compete volume wise in a session - for myself, I just want to go along and play and have a bit of craic. If lack of volume affected my enjoyment (which it doesn't), I'd bring the tenor banjo. One thing that will put a dent in my enjoyment is an instrument that I don't enjoy playing - crummy action, neck profile that doesn't suit me, those are the things that would make me want to put it back in it's case.

For Michael, regarding the Nationals - you see them going second hand a fair bit in around the $1200-1400 range. I've considered one sometimes as it'd be good for busking with, unusual enough to catch the eye and get the punters to pause, and perhaps drop a few quid in the case while they're there.

Cheers,
Jill

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## Steve-o

> For Michael, regarding the Nationals - you see them going second hand a fair bit in around the $1200-1400 range. I've considered one sometimes as it'd be good for busking with, unusual enough to catch the eye and get the punters to pause, and perhaps drop a few quid in the case while they're there.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jill


Elderly has a used National RM-1 up for sale.  I played it a couple weeks ago and the action and sound were excellent IMO.  Wish I had the cash to pick it up.

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## Tim2723

Well, I suppose there's an advantage to playing an unheard instrument.  One could sit there and fake it all night and no one will ever know. Works especially well if the musicians are drinking for free. Heck half the bodhran players I know just drag the drum around to hang out with musicians and get the free beer.  Personally, I wouldn't waste my time playing if I couldn't be heard, just don't see the point in it.  Just different schools of thought I suppose.  To each his own.

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## whistler

> we're mandolin players, we're not going to compete volume wise in a session - for myself, I just want to go along and play and have a bit of craic.


Hear, hear.  The main thing for me is that I can hear myself well enough to play what I want to play.  For this reason, I tend to avoid really big or noisy sessions - or use them as opportunities to play an instrument I am less adept on.  I am lucky enough to have a few smallish sessions within easy reach and the self-built mandolin I play is fairly loud (although not nearly as loud as some I have played).  Also, the fact that my regular sessions do not have a vast common repertoire (something that I frequently bemoan) means that I often play a tune with just one or two other musicians, so there is no problem being heard.

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## michaelpthompson

I have to admit, I've played with mandolin players and afterward had no idea if they had any idea what they were doing or not. Couple of them I've never actually heard, but they seemed to be having a good time. That's one reason I asked about Celtic/Irish especially. Volume is certainly one aspect of what I'm looking for.

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## Bertram Henze

> Heck half the bodhran players I know just drag the drum around to hang out with musicians and get the free beer.


 :Disbelief:  Suddenly, I see them in a different light - always wondered what they were up to.

OTOH, it might be better if they don't actually play. I once witnessed a passionate bodhran player practically getting thrown out of our session because he boomed away shaman-drum-style without dampening the tone and out of time. At least, that can't happen to you with a mandolin.

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## michaelpthompson

As a bodhrán player, I always cringe when somebody like that shows up. Gives us all a bad reputation. I've seen some of them mellow out and become decent musicians after a while, but others just never get a clue.

But are you sure it couldn't happen with a mandolin? I heard mention on this board of people just banging away on chords and annoying their fellow sessioneers. Guess it's a little harder on mandolin, because you actually have to learn some chords or something. Too many people say, "I can't play an instrument so I'll just beat the drum."

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## Bertram Henze

> I heard mention on this board of people just banging away on chords and annoying their fellow sessioneers.


Yes, but that segment is already dominated by guitar players who ask what key a tune is in and keep strumming that single chord...

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## Avi Ziv

> Yes, but that segment is already dominated by guitar players who ask what key a tune is in and keep strumming that single chord...


hey  - at least in that segment they ask. We once had a guitar player come in , sit down, and ask if we could play something over a chord progression "groove" that he had in mind.

he didn't last long....

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## Bertram Henze

> We once had a guitar player come in , sit down, and ask if we could play something over a chord progression "groove" that he had in mind.


Oh well. Said the cock dismounting from the duck.

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## Steve L

I really wish folks would stop calling people like this "guitar players".  They're not.

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## Tim2723

Two bodhran players I've played with have small condenser mics wired into their drums and all manner of fancy outboard electronics. One guy uses wireless, another has a sub-mixer to tailor his 'sound'.  They actually end up carrying more gear than the rest of us.  One fellow always had his wife in tow, laden down like a pack mule.  He had two drums, microphones and stands, a special stool, a large case with at least 50 tippers, all manner of paraphernalia.

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## Bertram Henze

> I really wish folks would stop calling people like this "guitar players".  They're not.


Their fault is not that they think they can play guitar - it's that they think they can play any genre. The same mistake can be made on any instrument, even mandolins.

Luckily, there are also positive surprises. I was most impressed 30 years ago while attending a session in McDermot's, Doolin Co. Clare, Ireland when someone with a large syntheziser keyboard (!) joined us. Our faces, distorted with apprehension, relaxed when it turned out he could accompany any tune we played with the most daring and beautiful chords and made it all sound like Clannad.

Compared to that, the choice of mandolin suddenly seem to be a minor problem...

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