# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  what is the function of the fingerboard extension?

## jmalmsteen

I just bought this Gibson F5G and noticed that is has an extension that seems to serve no purpose and is in the way when you are playing. My Kentucky km-600 does not have this. If someone can explain the purpose or reason behind the fretboard extension I would appreciate it. Thank you all for bearing with me with my sudden flood of posts!
-Jen

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## Jim

Makes clicking sound if you pick too deep.

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## jmalmsteen

It just seems to be in the way and has no purpose so I am wondering if I am missing something?

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## Greenmando

Also called the Florida peninsula. I watched Chris Thile play the full fret board one night.

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## jmalmsteen

> Also called the Florida peninsula. I watched Chris Thile play the full fret board one night.


That must have been interesting to watch!

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## George R. Lane

You might consider having the frets pulled and the wood scooped out. It will make it much easier to play.

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## barney 59

Dave Apollon could actually play up there although I think he maybe had a fret or two pulled. So--- he could maybe play up there, but only in certain keys. People were smaller back when they designed this and therefore their fingers were smaller. This accounts for the popularity of the mandolin at the time. They thought they were guitars.

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## jmalmsteen

> You might consider having the frets pulled and the wood scooped out. It will make it much easier to play.


I've read about scooping the frets and did not know what people were referring to, but now I understand. Why wouldn't Gibson just shorten the fretboard? Are there advantages to the extension such as the effect on the tone?  When I took the mandolin out of the box and played it, this just jumped out as some poor design feature.
My Kentucky has the shortened fretboard and it seems so much more logical. Especially coming from guitar, it seems absolutely bizarre to have frets under where you pick.

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## Jim

Many just have it removed. Some just saw it off and others have a luthier do a more atractive job. I have one instrument with a scooped extension and I find it still gets in the way, Letting me know I pick too deep.

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## jmalmsteen

> Many just have it removed. Some just saw it off and others have a luthier do a more atractive job. I have one instrument with a scooped extension and I find it still gets in the way, Letting me know I pick too deep.


I can't say that the idea of a saw didn't cross my mind! Why would Gibson do this if it is such an annoyance? Are there any benefits to having it?

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## mandroid

> Why wouldn't Gibson just shorten the fretboard?


They do, on different models and other years.. I have 2 older A mandolins 
 they are ending the fingerboard, straight across , with 20 frets .

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## Brent Hutto

Never underestimate the power of "that's how it's always been done" when it comes to mandolins. Just like a lot of people insist on a Gibson mandolin because of the brand's history, a lot of people insist on a fretted "Flordia" extension because of its long history on Gibson mandolins. 

And a lot of people scoop or chop that extension because they don't care as much about history as about the hassle of banging their pick on it every time they play. It's a big reason I sold my nice Gibson A-5G and did something different for my backup/travel/office mandolin. I was going to have the extension chopped and it just seemed a pity to go to that expense and effort rather than just let someone own it who likes the darned thing.

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## dcoventry

It's not Bluegrass if it doesn't have a Rawhide Florida Scroll Drum.

Does that answer your question?

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## jmalmsteen

> It's not Bluegrass if it doesn't have a Rawhide Florida Scroll Drum.
> 
> Does that answer your question?


What is a "rawhide Florida scroll drum?"

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## MikeEdgerton

The F5 was originally perceived as a instrument that would be used to play classical music. That "Florida" was seen as a way to extend the range of the instrument. As has been posted already. Dave Apollon could actually play up there and I'm sure others can and do as well. It's still there because that's the traditional way of building an F5. I scooped the one on my F5G using *thes*e instructions on Frank Ford's www.frets.com (well, I guess I started with them). That moment as you sit with a router over the fingerboard on your F5 and plunge forth with the courage of the ignorant is a wonderful feeling. I ended up cleaning mine up with sharp chisels and ever finer sandpaper.

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## jmalmsteen

> The F5 was originally perceived as a instrument that would be used to play classical music. That "Florida" was seen as a way to extend the range of the instrument. As has been posted already. Dave Apollon could actually play up there and I'm sure others can and do as well. It's still there because that's the traditional way of building an F5. I scooped the one on my F5G using *thes*e instructions on Frank Ford's www.frets.com (well, I guess I started with them). That moment as you sit with a router over the fingerboard on your F5 and plunge forth with the courage of the ignorant is a wonderful feeling. I ended up cleaning mine up with sharp chisels and ever finer sandpaper.


You are a brave guy to do that. I wouldn't go at my mandolin even with explicit instructions. My only interest is playing bluegrass on this. The only classical I play is neoclassical shred guitar like the stuff from the '80's.

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## Mandolin Mick

My Rattlesnake F-5 is scooped. Helps to play in the sweet spot without the clicking.  :Mandosmiley:

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## journeybear

It also creates a lot of envy among other mandolinists. Don't think that was the original intent, though ...

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## allenhopkins

> ...Dave Apollon could actually play up there and I'm sure others can and do as well...


Bernado de Pace gets pretty far up on the "peninsula" as well.  (If you don't want to watch the whole ten minutes, he's at stratospheric pitch around 0:43.)



How would you like it if _your_ favorite mandolinist dressed like Pagliacci?

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## dcoventry

> What is a "rawhide Florida scroll drum?"


Ah, that'd be pure and delicious sarcasm right there.  Hang around long enough, and these questions will bring a smile to your face.

Let's try this:

Question: Why does an already pretty girl wear make up? 
Answer: To make her more expensive.

Does that help any?

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## GRW3

My Bighorn has a Florida. Part of my routine session starting right hand practice is to not hit the Florida. My ability varies depending on how often I practice and how I'm feeling but I do pretty well at staying off the fretboard.

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## Ron McMillan

While the very occasional genius might make use of the extension, its inclusion in designs of the F5 over the last 80+ years seem to be almost exclusively a nod to the near perfect proportions and stylistic cues of the earliest F mandolins.

Ever since, other designers seeking an 'improvement' on the F5 and manufacturers seeking money-saving shortcuts have explored variations on the lines of the F5, but the original design was so beautifully thought out that even today, when makers try something new with the headstock scroll or the body scroll or the 'florida' extension, they never look _quite_ right.

I think that the fingerboard extension was a design affectation, a classic example of form over function, and I have had the extension scooped on my F5 copy, again following the instructions on Frets.com. In my case, I gave the instrument to a luthier in Bangkok who hardly ever sees a mandolin, along with a printout of the stage-by-stage instructional photos from the Frets.com page - and he perfectly replicated what I wanted. The result is a mandolin much easier to play without the pick clicking against the fretboard extension - but one whose visual 'lines' closely mimic the classic design that time has told us can hardly be improved upon.

rm

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## Brent Hutto

I'm with Blueron. It's like the scroll on the Florentine models. While it does give the instrument a certain visual identity and yes you can certainly hang a strap there it's there because some designer thought it looked good. Thousands of instrument buyers agreed and therefore it's the image a lot of folks have in mind when they hear "mandolin".

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## almeriastrings

It is a secret test, to see if you have the cajones to file it down or saw it off....

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## jmalmsteen

That is a nice mandolin!  :Smile:

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## jmalmsteen

> Ah, that'd be pure and delicious sarcasm right there.  Hang around long enough, and these questions will bring a smile to your face.
> 
> Let's try this:
> 
> Question: Why does an already pretty girl wear make up? 
> Answer: To make her more expensive.
> 
> Does that help any?


Oh boy....
-Jen  :Smile:

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## jmalmsteen

> My Bighorn has a Florida. Part of my routine session starting right hand practice is to not hit the Florida. My ability varies depending on how often I practice and how I'm feeling but I do pretty well at staying off the fretboard.


I don't have the problem of hitting it since I don't play with a lot of pick (carried over from shred guitar techniques) but it just seems ridiculous to have something on a mandolin that does nothing and you have to think about avoiding. I almost ordered a Weber Fern and had planned on getting some customization. I am so happy for this thread because if I ever do go forward with the Weber, the first thing I would ask Bruce to do is to leave off the extension. You can't have enough instruments but that's an entirely different issue (sickness).

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## Mandolin Mick

Whatever the original design,  I think most of us who have one on their mandolin will admit that it's primarily for aesthetic status. 

I will admit that when I acquired my Rattlesnake, my wife looked at it and went through the checklist ... "Let's see ... Flowerpot, Florida ... "  :Laughing:

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## 8strings

I am working on an ingenious design right now: A slideable extension, which hides right under the wider fretboard when the instrument is being played and which can then be slid out for aesthetic purposes when the mandolin is being admired by aficionados. This should be a hit, both for the traditional mandolin enthusiast and for the more practical musician, who prefers to play without the self-generated metronome. What do you think?  :Wink:

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## John Kelly

It was created so that in future years, when the internet was invented and there were sites like the Mandolin Cafe Forum, it would provide hours of endless fun among the posters and browsers on  a wet Sunday morning.  At least that's what it has done for me!  What insight those folks at Gibson had.   :Laughing:

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## Mandolin Mick

A hideaway extension? Interesing idea, but if it catches on ... people will look at the extension to see if it's "a *real* Florida" ...  :Laughing:

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## John Kinn

If Sam Bush doesn't need one, there's no point...

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## Larry S Sherman

> ...it just seems ridiculous to have something on a mandolin that does nothing and you have to think about avoiding.


You may never use it, but that doesn't mean that it does nothing. As previously mentioned, some great mandolin players actually use those high frets. I've seen Chris Thile and Mike Marshall get up there. It's an extended range. If you don't like it get it scooped or chopped but it was intended to be used.

Larry

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## jmalmsteen

> You may never use it, but that doesn't mean that it does nothing. As previously mentioned, some great mandolin players actually use those high frets. I've seen Chris Thile and Mike Marshall get up there. It's an extended range. If you don't like it get it scooped or chopped but it was intended to be used.
> 
> Larry


Just wondering, in bluegrass, where do people usually play up to? I have been playing a little too much in the 1-5 fret area since that is where most of the fiddle tunes I know are located but for breaks I have been going as high as the tenth fret.

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## journeybear

Those frets enable hitting high notes that are more or less useful depending on the key you're in. I forget how high the extension on my F-12 went (stolen four years ago), but I think it went to 24 - two octaves, a nice "round" number. My A model has 20 frets - up to C - my MandoBird has 21 - up to C#. How much difference that really makes is debatable, but I do play a good bit in A, and having that third is nice.  :Mandosmiley: 

Truth be told, though, I hardly ever get that high up. And when I do, I am using my fingernails - I leave just a little bit on for the instances like this, or as a slide, and such - and don't even really need frets, or even a fingerboard. I'm up in the violin zone.  :Wink:

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## Jim

I usually hang out below the 7th fret except on the E and A strings where I might get up to the 12th. I don't find myself needing a fretted extension or even frets above the body neck joint. However, I don't think I'll pull the upper frets , might need them someday.

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## journeybear

I believe that extensions serve a purpose for the manufacturer, too. Those who know more about this will surely correct me, but I bet that if you could line up all the models available from Gibson in a given year, from most affordable to most expensive, from plain A to F-5, you would see a general progression in certain physical attributes, like inlay, ornamentation, and extensions. That is, the more you pay, the more features the instrument would have - just like cars.  :Wink:  This air of desirability drives price and status.

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## sunburst

> ...the extension[s]... inclusion in designs of the F5 over the last 80+ years seem to be almost exclusively a nod to the near perfect proportions and stylistic cues of the earliest F mandolins.
> 
> Ever since, other designers seeking an 'improvement' on the F5 and manufacturers seeking money-saving shortcuts have explored variations on the lines of the F5, but the original design was so beautifully thought out that even today, when makers try something new with the headstock scroll or the body scroll or the 'florida' extension, they never look _quite_ right.


Just thought I'd point out that all of the above is an _opinion_, though not stated as such, and that there are those of us who's opinions strongly differ.
F models previous to the F5 were of better design and proportions visually, IMO, and did not have the long 29 fret extended fingerboard.

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## MikeEdgerton

> That is, the more you pay, the more features the instrument would have


The Gibson Sam Bush and Adam Steffey model as well destroy that theory.

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## 8strings

> I am working on an ingenious design right now: A slideable extension, which hides right under the wider fretboard when the instrument is being played and which can then be slid out for aesthetic purposes when the mandolin is being admired by aficionados. This should be a hit, both for the traditional mandolin enthusiast and for the more practical musician, who prefers to play without the self-generated metronome. What do you think?


.... I might be letting out just a little bit too much information at this early development stage and I hope that Gibson, or any up and coming contemporary luthiers will not 'steal' my idea. However, another feature of the retractable florida extension will be a gradually uncurling scroll, as the player moves towards the higher notes of the fretboard. Once the narrower part is starting to be fretted, the scoll will have been transformed into a vertical spike, inviting the audience to enthusiastically applaud the clean fretting capabilities of the musician. All of this solar powered, of course. Not an easy thing to do to hold a clean tone in this region of the fretboard. This will also be the stage were bats and other highly tuned flying animals will pay much more attention to the music, as they can pick up sounds that are no longer heard by humans. Please don't ridicule or make fun of me. I am deadly serious.  :Grin:

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## Mandolin Mick

:Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

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## Schlegel

It's for reaching the highest notes of violin range, and Gibson didn't invent the fingerboard extension. He invented a particular profile, but there are 19th century mandolins, notably the Roman style of De Santis and Embergher with extensions over the the soundhole.  Calace continues to have extensions on their higher end mandolins even now.

Here is an 1894 Embergher:

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## Steve Ostrander

It's like an appendix; it serves no know purpose and it's expensive to remove.

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## Willie Poole

Why do most bass fiddles have a fingerboard that is so long that a picker cannot reach all the way to the end, except for Tom Gray, of course.....Some of the repairmen on here have stated that the florida extension also adds to the tone and removing it make sit less desireable...I don`t know....Also some makers leave the extension on but without all of the frets, a few missing at the end.....

   Myself, I like the looks of it as well as the scroll and the points, they don`t serve any purpose either except for hooking a strap onto the scroll....It`s all for design purposes.....Just play and enjoy the F-5G....

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## rico mando

plink,plink,pling,plink,pling,plink

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## dcoventry

Lots of cars will get you from place to place, but don't you want to go in style?

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## Dale Ludewig

I believe that it was Mr. Hamlett who once used one of the funniest terms I've heard describing the scooped extension: "the dreaded black tongue".   :Disbelief:  :Laughing:

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## sunburst

I think that was Glassweb, Dale, whom I believe may have coined the term "black tongue".

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## Mike Snyder

How does your F5g sound? I love mine, and have had it scooped and radiused. I'm on my third set of frets. Play it. Don't worry abot the extension.

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## Dave Weiss

> I just bought this Gibson F5G and noticed that is has an extension
> -Jen


Did you not even look at a picture of it before you bought it?

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## jmalmsteen

> How does your F5g sound? I love mine, and have had it scooped and radiused. I'm on my third set of frets. Play it. Don't worry abot the extension.


It sounds like a Gibson, exactly what I wanted, so it is a great mandolin! I have always been a Gibson person (guitars) and like to support them.   I feel like I have a "real" mandolin.   I love the heritage that the Gibson name represents.

What does it mean to have it radiused?

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## jmalmsteen

> Did you not even look at a picture of it before you bought it?


I did not notice the extension until I played it and was like "what the heck is this thing???" I'm new to the mandolin coming from guitar and fiddle so I just had my Kentucky as a model of what a mandolin looks like.

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## Larry S Sherman

A radiused fretboard is curved instead of flat, which is more comfortable for some people's hands (not mine).



Adding a radius would mean having a new fretboard and bridge top installed. If you were going to do that they could do the scooped extension at the same time, but unless you need a radius then I would just have a luthier scoop the extension.

A scoop job is pretty common.

Larry

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## MandoSquirrel

You could look at the extension as a guide to sloppy picking. If you're playing efficiently, you won't "click" on the extension. If you click, your technique is not optimal.

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## jmalmsteen

Wow! Thanks for the picture. Since the extension hasn't gotten in my way so far I am going to leave it for now. It just seemed weird to have something underneath where you pick.  No other instrument that I own has this feature. My 24 fret electric guitars have useable frets that don't get in the way of anything.

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## journeybear

Perhaps I'm missing something (not entirely unusual), but if the problem with the extension is clicking or catching it with your pick, you could be doing something wrong with your picking action. Either ease up a bit (or a lot) or move your "strike zone" closer to the bridge, ie, farther from the trouble area.

Oh - I see - not necessarily you, but whoever has mentioned clicking.  :Whistling:

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## jmalmsteen

> You could look at the extension as a guide to sloppy picking. If you're playing efficiently, you won't "click" on the extension. If you click, your technique is not optimal.


No clicks! I use the teardrop picks that I have used for years and just use the tip to pick- maybe mandolin players would find '80's metal shred guitar picking techniques useful??  :Smile:

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## mandobassman

> You could look at the extension as a guide to sloppy picking. If you're playing efficiently, you won't "click" on the extension. If you click, your technique is not optimal.


I recently heard a recording that Skaggs did and during a section of the tune where he was playing by himself, the was plenty of annoying pick-click on the extension.  Would anyone like to question his technique?  However, it's the main reason I hate the extension.

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## Ben Milne

I believe it was first put there to give mandoliers something to discuss 90 years into the future... 
To put up with or saw off,
Scooping and the resulting _faux frets V DBT_ conjecture

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## Bill Snyder

As mentioned Mr. Skaggs has been known to click his pick.

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## jmalmsteen

Thanks for that video.  He has great feel and tone. What song is that?

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## journeybear

> As mentioned Mr. Skaggs has been known to click his pick.


Oh, he's doing that for rhythmic effect. It's multi-tasking - rhythm and melody at once. Yeah, that's it!  :Wink: 

"I Corinthians 1:18." Here is a little instructional video. No clicking, though ...

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## jmalmsteen

I was just listening to this trying to figure this out and the next thing I do is check back here and there is an instructional video. How amazing is this place?!?  :Smile:

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## journeybear

Oh, pshaw!  :Redface:  Ain't no thang!  :Mandosmiley:

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## jmalmsteen

This is now my favorite thing to play besides The Kentucky Waltz.  I'm intoxicated with the sound of this Gibson the folks in TN were kind enough to build and send here. This song really brings out the tone of the instrument.  My husband thinks I've lost my mind since I got this new mandolin. You have to play to really understand what it does to you.

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## Mandolin Mick

You know ... I might actually pay to listen to an `80's speed metal guitarist and a Bluegrass mandolinist compare picking techniques ...  :Wink:

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## jmagill

The fingerboard extension is there for the same reason your car's speedometer goes up to 120-140 mph  to feed your performance fantasies.

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## jmalmsteen

> You know ... I might actually pay to listen to an `80's speed metal guitarist and a Bluegrass mandolinist compare picking techniques ...


Go on to YouTube and look for Paul Gilbert, Yngwie Malmsteen, Steve Vai, or Marty Friedman.  With the '80's speed guitar, they stressed picking techniques and right hand efficiency. I can pick 16th notes cleanly at around 160 bpm because of this on guitar. It has made tremolo picking much easier and playing anything fast on the mandolin is not bad and this is all from hours of practicing scale patterns with a metronome on guitar- two clicks foward one click back etc.

On YouTube, type in "Paul Gilbert technical difficulties"
This is a song that he did with his band Racer X but there is a video of him just sitting and playing it

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## Bill Snyder

jmalmsteen,
Do you have TablEdit or Tefview? If so you can get the tab for I Corintians 1:18 at *Mandozine* along with hundreds (1000's?) of *other songs*.

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## jmalmsteen

> jmalmsteen,
> Do you have TablEdit or Tefview? If so you can get the tab for I Corintians 1:18 at *Mandozine* along with hundreds (1000's?) of *other songs*.


Thanks. I have used it for banjo since I can't "hear" banjo music like I can mandolin music. Learning by ear is much easier with the mandolin since you have more of an idea what is going on. I'll check it though.  :Smile:

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## mandobassman

> As mentioned Mr. Skaggs has been known to click his pick.


That's the tune I was referring to.  I don't know how anyone who values his or her tone the way that Skaggs does can allow that sound to be heard in his recordings.  When I had my last F5 style mandolin, I had no problem cutting that extension off.  That click drove me insane.  I always thought it was the silliest design.

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## baptist mando55

he has always been called picky Ricky ive heard many tales about how difficult he is to play with.  so i guess he may have done it on purpose for some reason. But i wouldnt mind clicking if i could pick like him.

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## Alex Orr

As has been shown with Ricky, even great pickers often have pick click.  I've heard some picky Wakefield picking as well.

Also, many builders have acknowledged the pointless (and often irritating) nature of the extension and choose not to include them.  Off the top of my head, I think a lot of the mandolins that renowned builder Ben Wilcox makes have a very, very abbreviated extension.

I keep meaning to get the Florida on my Brentrup scooped but get frustrated at the thought of not my mandolin for a few days  :Frown:

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## MandoSquirrel

Only my opinion, but I think Mr. Skaggs is at a competence level where he can choose whether he wishes to "click", and may, indeed, use it as an effect.

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## mandobassman

> Only my opinion, but I think Mr. Skaggs is at a competence level where he can choose whether he wishes to "click", and may, indeed, use it as an effect.


I think people are giving Skaggs way too much credit.  I don't think there are many folks who can challenge his musical competency. but to imply he clicks his fingerboard on purpose for effect is really stretching it a bit.  Certainly I would not expect him to cut off the extension of his '23 Loar, but it just shows why it was never necessary to have the Florida in the first place.  IMO, it's a pointless decoration that has always been in the way of the sweet spot for tone.

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## journeybear

I was kidding, of course, but I guess if someone _really_ wanted to do that intentionally, he could. Even so, I have to wonder why one would leave that in a recording, when it would be within the realm of possibility to do another take. I don't like it - I find it distracting, and it sounds like an error - but I suppose if someone _really_ liked the sound ...

I was going to ask why this was such a big issue for so many, when it seems easy enough to just move your picking hand a little - but you answered what I was going to ask, whether this was right in the sweet spot. OK - I got my answer, without even having to ask the question. You're right, Jen - this really IS an amazing place!  :Grin:

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## SkitownPicker

Matt Flinner, who I think is a pretty good player as well, produces his own amount of pick click too....and if I could play half as well as he can....

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## JeffD

We all make our aesthetic choices. For most playing and most players, the florida extension can be likened to the scroll. 


Florida extension

No accoustic purpose (if you don't routinely play up there).
Inconvenient (makes clean picking over the sweet spot a little harder)
Looks cool
Iconic of a certain kind of mandolin
We justify its existance by occationally playing up there.

Scroll

No accoustic purpose
Inconvenient (costs more)
Looks cool
Iconic of a certain type of mandolin
We justify its existance by hanging the strap there.



So folks can argue form and function all day, but it comes across kind of hollow if you think the extension is silly but the scroll is important.

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## journeybear

AHA! Well-considered, very philosophical, indeed.

Just one thing - I do believe my H-2 mandola has a little bitty two-fret Florida - that's an A-shaped oval hole, in case you didn't know  :Disbelief:  ... I'm a bit perplexed  :Confused:  ... Oh great - another thing to lose sleep over ...

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## JeffD

> Just one thing - I do believe my H-2 mandola has a little bitty two-fret Florida ... I'm a bit perplexed ......


Well perhaps the thinking there is if you really want to play up that high, get a danged manodlin!

No valor in being the tallest midget or the shortest giant, or the highest pitched mandola.

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## journeybear

:Laughing:  True enough! You do realize, I have both.  :Wink:  But I think the reason for an extension is to add a note or two so you don't have to switch to the next higher pitched instrument mid-flight. I have heard of a piccolo mandolin. Is that pitched higher? Is that where people bothered by extensions should be headed?  :Confused: 

I still say, just pick a bit lower, or less vehemently, the click will go away. Personally, I think they look cool. Now if only there were a way to attach a strap to one, I wouldn't be hankering after a scroll so much any more ...  :Whistling:

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## Brent Hutto

There are different ways to pick a mandolin. For some picking strokes, you literally can not play over the "Florida" without striking it with the pick. If you never use that type of stroke or you never position your pick over the "Florida" in the first place this sounds like a tempest in a teapot.

But if you like the sound you get with that kind of stroke and that picking location you get it scooped or get it chopped or get a mandolin that doesn't have a "Florida". To do otherwise and pretend it doesn't matter would be silly.

That said, I can't for the life of me figure out why Ricky Skaggs tolerates that damned clicking on some of his recordings. I love Ricky's music to death but can't listen to those tracks because of the click. Kind of like when Chet Atkins used to play with some of those horrific 70's piezo pickups. The man was a genius but I'm not listening to piezo quack no matter who is playing, it sounds awful

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## Jeff Wheelock

When discussing design options for my Daley F5, Sim told me Lloyd Loar specified the extension for the original F5 because he had one piece of music that required a very high note.  Loar was a performing musician.  Not quite that fussy, I opted for no extension.

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## Ben Milne

While tone enhancement isn't the primary function, it's interesting to get Don MacRostie's take on difference of tone .    No doubt the material used  for the extension support and the size/ weight will make a difference, I wonder if Dr Cohen has any more insights on this since 12 months ago.

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## allenhopkins

The function of the fingerboard extension, is to generate frequent long Cafe´threads.  Well-designed for that purpose.

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## journeybear

Truly. And other than that, it ain't no part of nothin'.  :Wink:

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## mandroid

Hey, Bernardo [in#19] don't need no strap on that Lyon and Healy , (I guess he was playing) ..
 and that Hair ,   :Disbelief:

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## mandobassman

> While tone enhancement isn't the primary function, it's interesting to get Don MacRostie's take on difference of tone .    No doubt the material used  for the extension support and the size/ weight will make a difference, I wonder if Dr Cohen has any more insights on this since 12 months ago.


While I do believe that the extension _can_ make a difference in tone, I seriously doubt that LLoyd Loar designed the extension for that purpose.  Any component can make a difference in tone on any given mandolin.  It doesn't mean it will make a difference on ALL mandolins.  IMO, the extension was designed for looks and nothing else.  But since it is part of a Loar design, people will always find some way to justify its' purpose.

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## Ben Milne

The extension itself had appeared on Gibson mandolins 20 years prior to Loar's tenure. The extension support was part of Loar's design and was definitely an intended feature to assist in freeing up the soundboard.  I don't think releasing an F5 model with less possible playable notes than the F4 would have been an option.
Any imparted tone from sympathic vibrations of the floating extension are probably well hidden amongst a denser complicated wavefront emanating from the top plate.

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## sunburst

> The extension itself had appeared on Gibson mandolins 20 years prior to Loar's tenure. The extension support was part of Loar's design and was definitely an intended feature to assist in freeing up the soundboard.


"Floating" fingerboard extenders showed up on a few F4s before the F5 was introduced, but to my knowledge, the 29 fret fingerboard didn't show up until the F5. Any experts know for sure?
Yes, I believe the elevated extender was an idea intended to "free up" more of the top, also to move more toward violin design. The f-holes of the F5, I believe, were another move in the direction of violin design.
Perhaps the 29 fret fingerboard was added to give classical players those very high notes they had been yearning for, but I think it was kind of like a new smart phone. A new model needs more features to set it apart from previous models and make it desirable, whether the features are needed or not.
The "sweet spot" probably wasn't a consideration because (I believe) the proper picking position for the classical and other music of the early 20s was closer to the bridge. As we know, Bluegrass music would not come along for another 20 years or so.

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## Big Joe

John is correct.  The F5 was not designed for "popular" music or certainly bluegrass (which had not yet been invented).  It was designed for classical music with regular orchestras and needed enough frets to allow playing two octaves on the e and a strings.  While many today find that useless, many players of that time were quite a bit smaller than we are today and many more ladies played then as a percentage than probably do today.  The size of hands and fingers were shorter and the population was not as heavy as today.  Therefore, their fingers would work better on smaller frets.

Look at the popularity of the Ukulele from the mid teens till the 50's.  Many playes a soprano uke (the little ones).  I can play mandolin ... and yes, even some of those tiny "useless frets" as some have called them but I have trouble with the soprano uke.  It is largely what we get used to and the development of our style and playing technique.  

While many will never find any use for frets above the 12th, many of us would be way too limited.  While many will never use the frets on the extension, I have known many players who do and can do quite well with them.  Some of them have very large hands and it does not stop them from playing cleanly in that area.

That answers the question as to its function.  Whether it is something you will ever use or need is another issue.  I usually scoop the extension on my mandolins and use the higher frets when available only on rare occasions.  I do not encourage cutting the extension off.  That is a permanent alteration for the most part.  Not only do you cut the fingerboard, but the support under it as well.  That also will show the less finished area under the extension.  If you want to get rid of pick click I would encourage scooping.  That can be undone much easier than undoing the whole extension and will retain the original look and still get you the needed room to eliminate pick click.

There are always things we may wish were different from what we have in our instruments, but then it would not be that instrument.  If you want one that is not "Gibsony", there are plenty that are different.  While we may not always understand the reason certain things were done, there actually was a reason these things were made the way they were.  These reasons may not always be valid 90 years down the line but they must have been in the minds of the builders at that time.

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## Perry Babasin

Chris Thile has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. I've seen him with his Dude and his Gibson, both scooped.

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## Beanzy

The fact is that Gibson were already pushing a new design into a market dominated by bowl-back instruments incorporating fingerboard extensions giving 27+ frets at the e string. (examples on the Emberger site by Alex Timmerman (a forum stalwart here)) 

There's no way they would have hampered themselves by giving potential customers a reason to reject their designs on the grounds of 'playability' or making the player look inadequate by firmly indicating they would never need to play up there. It may be a bit of a peacocks tail, but that does not mean it has no function or having a lesser one would not have an adverse effect on the owner. Just look at the stances and presentation of those people in old mandolin orchestra photos. Now spot the pecking order.

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## jmalmsteen

Thank you everyone for your insight.   Here's a follow up question and the reason I am asking is that I have 22 and 24 fret guitars and regardless of the number of frets, you never have an issue of the fretboard located underneath where you pick. Couldn't they have found some way to do this where you would not have the above issue?

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## Bill Snyder

> Thank you everyone for your insight.   Here's a follow up question and the reason I am asking is that I have 22 and 24 fret guitars and regardless of the number of frets, you never have an issue of the fretboard located underneath where you pick. *Couldn't they have found some way to do this where you would not have the above issue*?


Not if you want 29 frets and it stays a mandolin.

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## jmalmsteen

> Not if you want 29 frets and it stays a mandolin.


Good point.  I am not very familiar with the other mandolin family instruments but I will go do some research so I can better understand what defines a mandolin.  I think if I find out about new "mandolins" and want one at some point my husband might go crazy from all of the instruments (the one mandolin has now become two mandolins, same with the pair of banjos, and forget the guitars  :Smile:

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## journeybear

Better to forget the banjos!  :Whistling: 




Well, OK, to each his/her own ...  :Grin:

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## jmalmsteen

I like the banjers...they are just so ridiculous. The good thing about the mandolins is that now that I have two I actually feel like I have too many. I'm assuming one Gibson is good enough like Bill Monroe and his mandolin. Now, if a 1920's F'4.just showed up for a good price one day, anyway, I guess it is a disease!

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## Bill Snyder

> ... Now, if a 1920's F'4.just showed up for a good price one day, anyway, I guess it is a disease!


If you have not seen it yet you will. The disease has a name - MAS (mandolin acquisition syndrome).

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## Willie Poole

If you see one grab it quick....I saw a 1919 F-2 three point that I wanted but kept trying to get the seller to come down in price and then one day I decided to go ahead and pay him his price and found out that he had taken all of his instruments and moved to a different part of the country, he was a manager of a local music store...SNOOZE  YOU  LOSE..I guess that is true....

     Willie

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## jmalmsteen

> If you see one grab it quick....I saw a 1919 F-2 three point that I wanted but kept trying to get the seller to come down in price and then one day I decided to go ahead and pay him his price and found out that he had taken all of his instruments and moved to a different part of the country, he was a manager of a local music store...SNOOZE  YOU  LOSE..I guess that is true....
> 
>      Willie


I saw one today at IBMA at Gibson for a good price. Since I just bought a mandolin I need some space between them so I don't look too crazy to my husband.

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

> If you see one grab it quick....I saw a 1919 F-2 three point that I wanted but kept trying to get the seller to come down in price....


Willie - did you mean a _1909_ F2 three point? I didn't think there were any three pointers past 1910/1911? In any case, those F2/F4 are great mandolins.

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