# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  Ebay: 1924 Gibson Blacktop "A2Z"

## Goodin

Apparently a blacktop A2Z but the seller does not list what is actually wrote on the label.  It was my understanding that all the black top models with a2z appointments were labeled as "A-2".  Regardless...a very nice mandolin.  

Dan this isn't on the Archive.  

Merry Christmas!!!

Goodin

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## Goodin

Woops...forgot the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

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## Darryl Wolfe

This is the same mandolin that went for $3383 on ebay a few weeks ago.  According to that owner it says only "A" on the label.  Although it has all A2Z features, it cannot be considered an A2Z entirely.  It was finished in black as an "A".  If it were truly a variant A2Z it would say A2z.

It should be considered an A2z equal, that will never cost as much or be worth as much.  Nice mandolin, great mandolin, but not a true A2z.

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## Goodin

I asked the seller and he says he can only read "A-" saying "However, the appointments of the mandolin clearly make this an A-2, and the A-2s that were built during this time period are referred to as A-2Zs."

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## Darryl Wolfe

> I asked the seller and he says he can only read "A-" saying "However, the appointments of the mandolin clearly make this an A-2, and the A-2s that were built during this time period are referred to as A-2Zs."



That is all correct, but nonetheless misleading.  Catalog description for an A2z says clearly "beautiful ambered natural finish on the top". and "special high quality tuners"

The mandolin is clearly an A2z but was finished out to be an "A", marked as such and sold as such.

Long and short, it's a poor mans A2z.

I have a similar period blacktop marked "A".  Its is trimmed like an A2 also

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## Goodin

Darryl it was my thoughts too that the listing is misleading with no doubts to get more and higher bids.  

I had always thought that a true A2Z had a natural top.  Thanks for confirming that.

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## Darryl Wolfe

If I had this mandolin (and I considered buying it) I would say that it is an A2z.  However, it is not marked as such and does not meet the catalog description exactly.  So it will never truly be one.

During the previous ebay sale, the FON was disclosed and it was built within a batch of A2z's.  So, it was an A2z in the beginning, but by the time it made it out the door it became an A and was marked as such.

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## mitchsimpson

Darryl,  Obviously I do have an interest in the sale of this mandolin because it is mine, and I feel that I have to weigh in since I disagree with you.  In my opinion, the basic features that determine the model of a Gibson are the peghead inlay, and the binding.  That is really the difference between all of the A models.  In this case we have an instrument with a pearl The Gibson logo, neck binding, and back binding.  All of those features make the difference between an A or an A-2Z or even an A-4 for that matter.  In my opinion this is MORE desireable than the standard common form of an A-2Z that we all know about with the natural top.  This label could well have been stamped A-2Z, it just is faded on the edge.  I have owned a ton of these in the std form that said the same thing on the label.  Remember, I have personally owned at least 50 of these things over the years and I think I have a fair opinion on these.  The argument that the top finish makes this less desirable, I really can't see.  The catalog description of an A-4 snakehead calls for a sunburst top, but I have had 3 with natural tops that I sold for much, much more than the std version.  Are you saying that they should be worth less simply because they are super rare and not the run of the mill version??

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## Glassweb

hell, just the fact that Andy Statman played one of these for over 30 years should make it highly desireable! ask Andy...

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## sgarrity

Is an "unsigned Loar" worth the same as one with a signature???

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## mitchsimpson

No, but an F-4 with a Cremona Brown finish is worth more than the standard Red finish.  Also the one and only Red F-5 Loar would certainly be considered to be worth more than the normal ones.

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## Goodin

Hi Mitch..my apologies to you for making assumptions on your intentions without hearing your opinion first.  What you have said makes sense.  It is my opinion though that most people want to see that "Z" on the label so the ones with it fetch more, and as far as I know they are the blonde tops..  So is there black top mandolins with "A2z" written on the label?

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## Darryl Wolfe

I do not wish to argue the point.  The instrument Mitch has is most assuredly an A2Z underneath (marked or not marked as such).

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## Darryl Wolfe

In the spirit of being completely fair, here is my blacktop snakehead.  I call it an A2 because it has as Mitch pointed out in his post, all of the attributes that make it an A2.  It is bound everywhere, has a fancier rosette and has pearl inlaid The Gibson.  It does not have the addditional black top binding line that would distinguish it as being an A2Z.  Any black topped mandolin trimmed like this is exceedingly rare as the black top was only found on straight A's during this period.  This mandolin is marked only as "A"

So, yes Mitch is correct that his is a very very rare mandolin.

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## Glassweb

so when all is said and done, i guess there are no black-top "A2z's" that were actually marked as such on the label inside. do we know of even one that is?

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## mitchsimpson

Thanks Darryl, Also the one that is listed is actually a little different than the one that you have in the photo in that it only has  the double ring around the soundhole without the larger center section.  It is actually the most scarce of all.  My personal A-2Z is a blacktop just like the one that you have in the photo.  In any case, they are all very rare!!  I have not had an opportunity today to be in the same location where the mandolin is, but I plan on looking at the label again.  The 2Z is always so faint on these labels that it may well be marked that but you just have to get the light just right to be able to see it.  I just consider all of these instruments to be the same animal.  Just some of them have features that are much more rare than others.

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## mitchsimpson

Steve, I am sure that there are some of them that the marking is visible on.  I just don't have one in hand at the moment.  I do know for sure that most of them will have the black line inside the top binding.  My personal one is very worn on the top and you can clearly see the inner black line.  The one that is listed is actually very clean on the top and thus the black line is not visible while in fact it is likely there

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## mandotool

if it's an A model with A-2Z attributes ...why not call it such? 
or at least mention it somewhere in the description..
the seller puts himself in an ethically awkward position....me thinks..

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## Darryl Wolfe

I studied the earlier pictures very carefully on the one you have listed.  It is there

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## Darryl Wolfe

...

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## atetone

Yes this is a very nice mandolin and should fetch a nice sum, but regardless of all of the talk about it being an unmarked "Z", I still can't see it as being an A2Z.
If it doesn't say it on the label then it isn't in my view of things.
It ended up as a "blacktop A", and sold originally for less money than a marked A2Z for a reason.
My guess would be that it ended up as a blacktop due to some sort of top flaw that excluded it from being finished as a blonde.
Maybe it is rare and that might be a price driver to some degree but I can't see it as being more desirable than one clearly marked as an A2Z.
To my way of thinking,,, if you have to explain why it is a Z even though it doesn't have a Z on the label then it truly isn't an A2Z, especially if it is a blacktop.

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## danb

> so when all is said and done, i guess there are no black-top "A2z's" that were actually marked as such on the label inside. do we know of even one that is?


I haven't seen one yet- we did a "Casting call" a few years ago to find one. I believe a little birdie we both know had a look at Andy's snakehead label as well! If anyone has one with a2z on the label, I would love to see it!

The only anomalous A2z I know of is this paddlehead marked A2-z. I list one earlier s/n as a2z before it (71951) from Frank Ford's notes, but we have no photos to go with it unfortunately. The one we have pictured above with the paddlehead truss rod strikes me as a prototype possibly, but again we await more evidence or the day that we have every old gibson in the archive  :Smile: 

What is written in the catalogs and what is on the label for '22-'25 a models seems hard to reconcile. I've seen plenty of A's like Darryl's with "A" on the label and back binding and a peghead logo. Some have "A3" purfling (The thick ring) and binding (a black stripe along the body behind the white stripe), and could be labelled A, A2. 

Generally speaking, I would say this- the A2z label is often used to mean "unusually nice sounding" too.. I've sure played some nice Zs, but I've also played plain brown As that could mop the floor with them. I'd say nearly any snakehead model from any year has the same odds of being a crusher as the other! 

Just roughly speaking, my experience has been that about 1 of every 4 snakeheads sounds really good to fantastic.. and maybe 1 out of every 10 teens A models has that same punch.

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## Jim Garber

My favorite Gibson is one on these conundrums. I called it an A2Z for years until I actually looked to see that it was only labelled an A even tho it is definitely an A2 by the specs.I should send pics and whatever to Dan for the archives one of these days.

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## danb

Please do Jim, every little bit we can collect helps.

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## Rob Gerety

> Just roughly speaking, my experience has been that about 1 of every 4 snakeheads sounds really good to fantastic.. and maybe 1 out of every 10 teens A models has that same punch.


So that means that 75% of the snakes do not have it, and 90% of the paddles do not have it.  Not sure where mine falls - but if as I suspect its in the 90% category then I have to say - I'd rather categorize it as 90% really great and 10% terrific.  I love everything about this old A4 paddle head of mine.

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## sgarrity

outbid by $50   :Frown:    Anybody here get it?

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## squirrelabama

Well, looks like this puppy sold for a little less than what dealers usually ask for a decent '24 A2.  I'm sure the new owner will be very happy....and no it's not me.  :Mandosmiley:

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## Goodin

Not me.  Wish I could afford it right now!  I was thinking it would go for $4500 so this is a good deal.

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## Darryl Wolfe

That was a respectable price

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## Goodin

Looks like this mandolin (or one very similar?)  Is back up on ebay by a scammer with a "buy it now" price of $1700.  Contact the seller directly.  I will report it...

http://cgi.ebay.com/1924-Gibson-A-2Z...item45f124094d

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## Darryl Wolfe

I already reported it

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