# Music by Genre > Old-Time, Roots, Early Country, Cajun, Tex-Mex >  Jack White

## John Ritchhart

Just watched disk #2 from Cold Mountain Video. Anyone really know this guy, Jack White? Is he the Johnny Depp of Old Time Music? Sorry if this is a completely ignorant question. Most are anyway.

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## John Flynn

Oh, now you've opened up a can of worms! There were some "highly flamed" threads on this some time ago. Here is my opinion, even though I will probably get flamed again for it:

Jack White is a kind of new-age rock and roller. He has a group, "The White Stripes" which is just him on electric guitar and his ex-wife on drums. No bass, nothing else. I am a passionate rock and roll fan of many decades, but his stuff does absolutely nothing for me.

So along comes the Cold Mountain film project. Jack was good friends with Rene Zellweger, one of the stars and investors in the film. There was a rumor that they were having an affair, but I don't know the truth and timing of that or if it was a factor, but hey, it is Hollywood after all. Anyhow, Jack wound up as the musical headliner and an actor in the film, even though he had no previous old-time music credits to his name. He even appeared on an A&E special to promote the movie, where he looked stoned out of his gourd while absolutely butchering "Wayfaring Stranger." 

To those who like him, Jack White is a talented cross-over artist. To those who don't, myself included, he is a no-talent interloper who is cheapening old-time music.

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## John Ritchhart

Well OK then. I thought it was just me.

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## mad dawg

I have never been a fan of the White Stripes, and his vocals on their recordings defintely put me off as well. _But_, I thought his work in Cold Mountain was very soulful, and it worked very well within the context of his role as a homegrown, untrained, unrefined, travelling amateur musician/deserter. I find it interesting that I like him better as a "musical interloper", than for what he is better known.

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## Steve L

Jack White's latest "project" is working with country singer Loretta Lynne in one of the most incomprehensible musical pairings since Bing Crosby and David Bowie sang "The Little Drummer Boy" on a Christmas special years ago. I first heard White Stripes on a late-night tv show and thought they were part of a comedy skit on garage bands. I don't get him either.

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## John Flynn

> I first heard White Stripes on a late-night tv show and thought they were part of a comedy skit on garage bands.


LOL, Steve! I did the same thing. I first saw them on Letterman and I thought it was one of David's gags. Especially because you had this very animated guitarist just banging away and singing, while the lady drummer just sat there looking vacant and bored, just hitting the snare and one cymbal on every downbeat. No rolls, no tom-tom action. When I realized they were for real I thought, "Gee, I could be a rock drummer, too, even though I have never seriously touched a kit!

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## chirorehab

I saw the White Stripes perform on the Grammy's last year... They blew everyone away.... I kid you not...His guitar playing was very impressive...

He is dating Renee Zellwegger...Or at least he was the last time I read People magazine!!

Eric

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## ira

sorry, shows you that differences are what makes the world go round. thought i don't own their music, i never turn them off the radio or tv when i see white stripes- for their genre i think that they are really powerful. i haven't seen cold mountain, but what is wrong with someone wanting to be involved in different genres and projects musically. instead of looking at him as an interloper, look at him as a young pop guy who has interest in roots music.

not a flame, just my opinion, so answer but don't attack. thanks,

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## fangsdaddy

jflynnstl writes: "Jack White is a kind of new-age rock and roller."
new age? you'll hardly find the 'stripes on the roster of windam hill. they're the polar opposite of that. 

ira. i'm w/you. good musicians, which i put jack white in that catagory, keep exploring rather than get stuck in one thing. on a similar front, there's a lot of people around here bent out of shape about thile, but i'm willing to follow his vision & see where it leads. 

this "no talent interloper" thing is similar to the charges leveled at gillian welch. (" she's from southern california. she wasn't born in the right part of the country to play this music."), which leads us to the old "can-white-men-play-the-blues?" argument. 

sam

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## mingusb1

Is Jack White in that "Folk Rap" outfit "Tenacious D"?

That stuff is funny, if too vulgar.

Z

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## John Ritchhart

Well I admire his effort to try different things, Rene Z. included. He is an acquired taste I guess. I haven't acquired it yet.

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## mad dawg

> Is Jack White in that "Folk Rap" outfit "Tenacious D"?


Z - You're thinking of Jack _Black_; he cracks _me_ up too. (But then again, I think _Adam Sandler_ is funny.)

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## smilnJackB

I don't know the White Stripes, but I enjoyed the old timey music in Cold Mountain very much. #I liked the movie too.
 # This Jack White was pretty good in the part. #The singing and songs were not overly professional -and should not have been! #  Jack

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## John Ritchhart

True. I thought the fiddle playing was worth the trip though.

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## Nathan Sanders

You know, I was impressed with the believability of the old time music in Cold Mountain. I'm no fan of Jack White, but seeing and hearing him perform in the movie kind of added another dimension to his stance as an artist. But I will not be buying the soundtrack or any White Stripes albums. And I'm still confused over the Loretta Lynn deal. I saw Loretta and Jack perform on Letterman and it just bothered me for some reason.

Back to Cold Mountain--- the movie was terrible. I would not recommend it to anyone. It was really kind of stupid.

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## Rick Schmidlin

Jack will be the T Bone of the future. He is young now but exploring.I think we will see interesting thinhs from the retro rocker who digs ol' time music.

Peace,
Rick

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## John Flynn

I don't disagree that Jack White did a credible job on the CM soundtrack. His performance on A&E is another matter, but everyone has a bad night. What I think is unfortunate is that the project deserved better than just "credible" and there were people out there who could have done much better. Just as a for instance, I challenge anyone who thinks that White was the best man for the job to compare the CM soundtrack to "Songs From the Mountain," a CD inspired be the Cold Mountain book, independent of the movie. Some of the tunes are the same. "Songs From the Mountain" absolutely blows the soundtrack away, IMHO, and it is much more true to the traditions of the music represented. 

Just going side by side with the tracks of "Wayfaring Stranger," on the two CDs it is obvious that White is not even in the same league as Tim O'Brien as an old-time singer. What was the hang up? Was Tim too busy? Too expensive? Not sleeping with Renee'? Inquiring minds want to know!

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## mrbook

I liked the music in Cold Mountain when I saw the movie, but heard the soundtrack first, and it didn't stand on its own (even with Mike Compton & Stuart Duncan). Loretta Lynn is probably lonely since her husband died - the stuff with Jack White is too dark and depressing, but like Johnny Cash's final work, young people seem to think it's more "real."

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## Darren

Just an interesting side note about Mr. White, Rolling Stone magazine had their 100 Greatest Guitarist issue come out about a year ago and Mr. White appeared ahead of a lot of "top notch" guitarist on their list. He was listed as number 17. Seriously, he was.

I thought it was rather "interesting" placement on their part.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/_/id/5937559?

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## John Flynn

Darren:

I am stunned by that list. So according to Rolling Stone, Jack White is the 17th "Best Guitarist of All Time." He is better than:
19. Richard Thompson
21. George Harrison
27. Mark Knopfler
36. Steve Cropper
32. John Cipollina
39. Brian May 
40. John Fogarty
42. Robert Fripp
45. Frank Zappa
46. Les Paul
49. John McLaughlin
50. Pete Townshend
54. Jorma Kaukonen
70. Eddie Van Halen
74. Johnny Winter
91. Robbie Krieger
96. Angus Young

Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Andres Segovia, Paul McCartney, John Lennon, Alvin Lee, Leslie West and Roger McGuinn, just to name the few that jump into my head, aren't even on the list, and White is #17. It is a world gone mad!!! Hey, with those rules, maybe I could be the 17th best mandolin player of all time. It would make as much sense.

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## Tim

These "best of all time" lists usually tend to be skewed to over-represent the last few years.

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## Nathan Sanders

It really is hard to read these types of lists today, 100 greatest....best of all time...whatever. I think most of it is done to get publicity for the "next big thing." It is sort of like when you watch some of these programs on CMT, "country" music television, and they have the current hot acts giving their five cents worth on some country legend, whom they have probably never met and maybe listened to one day in their life. And who exactly put this list of the greatest guitarists together? I'm guessing it was some 22-year old punk who probably doesn't even know who Les Paul or Chet Atkins is. Was Doc Watson on the list?

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## John Flynn

Doc Watson was not on it, nor was Clarence White of the Kentucky Colonels or Tony Rice.

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## Nathan Sanders

Jimi Hendrix #1? OH please...he was good but come on. Van Halen should be real close to the top. At least Clapton is up there. But where is Chet Atkins? I guess influence was not a factor in comprising the list. I wonder what the criteria for getting on the list was.

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## fangsdaddy

personally i was outraged that Rolling Stone put Jack ahead of Tony Iommi. But that's me. I still think Rolling stone is clueless, by the way.

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## mad dawg

I would like to know their criteria for _great_ as well, and how Kirk Hammett made #11 and Kurt Cobain #12. Sure they are/were both influential and popular, but _great_? # And 70 percentile more "great" than David Gilmour?? #And why didn't Glen Campbell make the list???

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## Michael H Geimer

" Sure they are/were both influential and popular, but great? "

I'm not sure the readers (or publishers) of RS understand the distinction.

Trying to find musical insight inside RS is like reading People Magazine for their financial advice.

... or like watching a Hollywood blockbuster hoping to see history acurately portrayed.

That being said ... people keep giving Jack work, so he's got some sort of appeal. (if not to us as listeners)

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## plunkett5

While I hesitate to defend RS, any greatest guitar player list that puts Ry Cooder in the top ten can't be all bad.

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## chirorehab

Anyone who has seen Trey Anastasio play will know that he should be near the top of that list. Not #73... 

Eric

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## mandofiddle

Yeah, what chirorehab just said. I was thinking the same thing on my way to work this morning (with a crisp Phish SBD from 97 in the CD player)

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## GVD

Johnny you know I'm a Jack White/White Stripes fan and we've agreed to disagree in the past over their talent or lack thereof but _New-age?_ They're about as new-age as the Sex Pistols. And yeah he isn't in Tim O'Briens league but then who really is?  

That being said I'm not about to suggest he should be on that RS 100 Greatest list, much less number 17. That's got to be one of the all time stupidest list I've ever seen. Yeah so that they got Ry Cooder right but no Doc Watson ,Clarence White or Tony Rice? Puleeze!

GVD

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## Michael H Geimer

" ... we've agreed to disagree in the past over their talent or lack thereof but New-age? "

I kinda liked the original Johnny Depp comparison, though ... that's funny!

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## John Flynn

OK, I probably shouldn't have said "new age" because that is a musical genre of its own and it has nothing to do with Jack White. So I guess we are correcting each other's semantics now. What's next? Spelling? I meant "new age" generically and it was a wrong useage. I should have said "nuveau," or something like that.

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## fangsdaddy

mando johnny
speaking of sematics, by your definition, jack white is a real musician. he has a day job. it's called the white stripes. & he gets paid for it better than most of us.
sam

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## peterbc

Clarence White is on there (#41)

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## John Flynn

> jack white is a real musician. he has a day job. it's called the white stripes. & he gets paid for it better than most of us.


So you think being an entertainer is a real day job? And you think the measure of a musician is what he gets paid? Interesting. No wonder our opinions differ.

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## fangsdaddy

no, johnny, i think you misunderstood me. playing guitar in the white stripes just happens to be his "day job". i consider jack white a real musician. i value his ideas & approach to music. the fact that he happens to be paid very well is meaningless. is yo yo ma any less of a great musician because he's paid well? #i only pointed it out because i do envy someone like him who's able to do what they love & get paid very well for that. most musicians i know do not have that situation in their lives.
britney is an entertainer. jack white is a musician who happens to be popular with certain segments of the record buying population. britney can't play. jack white can. to me that's one fundimental difference between an "entertainer" and a "musician".
to #say "real musicians have day jobs" #indicates to me that your viewpoint is that if a musician is making their living off their music, their music in your eyes ceases to be valid. there's an artistic purity thing here that i'm perceiving & truthfully, i don't agree with.
sam

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## Nathan Sanders

It is good to hear someone point out the difference between an entertainer and a musician. I have always been more impressed with entertainers who can actually play, who are actually musicians. Let me give you an example. I recently attended a concert by the Notorious Cherry Bombs at the Ryman auditorium. If you are not familiar with them, the band consists of Vince Gill, Rodney Crowell, Tony Brown, and some of their other old friends and known session musicians. Anyway, it was an awesome concert as they performed the songs of their new CD, plus some Vince Gill songs and some Rodney Crowell songs. They were having fun too. Now, imagine Garth Brooks trying to get his old buddies together to do a similar thing. I know Garth can write songs and play some guitar, but come on. He is just not in the same league musically as Vince. Garth is an an entertainer. Vince is that and more. You do not see Garth attending bluegrass festivals for one thing.

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## John Flynn

Like most of the signature lines on the board here, "Real musicians have day jobs" is only intended as a "bumper sticker" saying, not some assertion of a great undeniable truth. My intention is to celebrate the independence and power of amatuer musicians and to perhaps get a chuckle out of like-minded people. I got the line from a case sticker that was a signature give-away by a music store. It is not intended to insult professional musicians, who I doubt care much about my approval, or the approval of anyone else on any message board. 

However, if you want to get philisophical about it, which it seems you do, my view is that real musicians are people whose primary goal is to make music and who care about preserving music in its purer forms, not corrupted by commercialism. Once someones primary goal becomes making money by making music or being a celebrity by making music, the best term I would use to describe them is "entertainers," although for some of them, like Jack White, I can think of worse terms also. 

This is not unlike the view taken by people who fought for the Olympics to remain purely amateur in the old days, prior to the "dream team" phenomenon. They thought real athletes were people who were just in it for the sport, not for the money, and therefore "had day jobs." And they had a point. Who can deny that athletics has not lost something precious in our culture now that "sports entertainment" is the norm? 

Having said all that, I do think that big names who make a living at music can still be "real musicians." The defining factor is their primary goal. If it is the music, they are real musicians and I guess the commercial/ celebrity stuff could be seen as their "day job." I don't choose to put Jack White in that category, but you do. I can live with that.

So, on that basis Im sticking to my guns: "Real musicians have day jobs." If anyone doesnt like it, they can sue me! BTW, many centuries ago, lawyers all had to have day jobs, because it was prohibited to accept fees for legal services. I am not sure we are better off now that we have changed that, either.

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## Nathan Sanders

I've always liked the saying "real musicians have day jobs." I've used it many times. Another phrase I've seen is "Talking kills music." I saw that one on a t-shirt, pulled over the back of a folding chair that this guy carried with him at a festival where I was playing. Another favorite is "Tune it or die."

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## Moose

Thank you f5 for the introduction of some humor into this "getting-touchy" thread. PHEW!....

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## Nathan Sanders

Thanks Moose! I thought I might try to find some quotes about music and here is what I have found so far:

Play the music, not the instrument. ~Author Unknown

The joy of music should never be interrupted by a commercial. ~Leonard Bernstein

I worry that the person who thought up Muzak may be thinking up something else. ~Lily Tomlin

Opera is where a guy gets stabbed in the back, and instead of dying, he sings. ~Robert Benchley

Without Elvis, none of us could have made it. ~ Buddy Holly

Country music is three chords and the truth. ~ Harlan Howard

I would advise you to keep your overhead down; avoid a major drug habit; play everyday, and take it in front of other people. They need to hear it, and you need them to hear it. ~ James Taylor

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## fangsdaddy

johnny
i apprecite your point of view, but who are you to determine what jack white's true musicial goal was? have you guys been speaking in depth about this matter?. i saw them play in clubs to less than 30 people for 2 years prior to the explosion in their popularity. they were uncorrupted by the mighty dollar. in fact they slept in my friends living room when they played here. they seemed to be playing music because they loved it.
look, the white stripes got lucky. they hit the musical power ball drawing. truthfully, there are plenty of bands in the indie-rock scene who are as good. but they were in the right place at the right time. it's similar to the nirvana explosion of 14 years ago. why did nirvana get huge, while the pixies didn't?
sam

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## mandofiddle

> why did nirvana get huge, while the pixies didn't?


That line right there could start a whole new arguement...

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## fangsdaddy

so true.

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## John Flynn

> who are you to determine what jack white's true musicial goal was? have you guys been speaking in depth about this matter?


We all have the right to base our opinions on what we choose to base our opinions on. In that we are all equal in any discussion. I have a long history in music, as it seems you do also, and we just disagree. I respect your right to like Jack White. I am not attacking you or anyone else for having that opinion. I just don't share that opinion. Get over it. I will not play the game of having to justify my opinion just because it is contrary to yours. If there is any such thing as free speech, it only works if both our opinions can coexist on an equal footing. Frustrating, ain't it?

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## Michael H Geimer

I think there is a distinction to be made between the amatures and the professionals, and it's not an 'artistic purity' thing, or even a 'love of what you do' thing. (I'm confident that all musicians love making music) There are simply different sets of priorities involved, different perspecitves, different goals.

An amature is someone who practices music only to make it part of their lifestyle. In that sense it is an end in itself. Where a professionally oriented musician (famous or not) is concerned with crafting art for presentation, be it live performace, CD recording, or media broadcast. It is a different (more modern) way of looking at music's role in society. Is music an activity, or a finshed product?

That's the difference between Vince Gill attending festivals, while Garth does not. That's why Jack White taking a role in a Hollywood blockbuster, and acting as a 'producer' for a GOO star runs counter to the 'Real Musicians Have Day Jobs' motto. A "real" Old-Time player might be the alpha-fiddler at your local jam who knows hundreds of tunes, and guides the circle.

IMO ... 'elitism' happens on the commercial side of things (where songs and artists are commodified, #polished for display, put on sale for profit, and organized into Top100 lists) and not so much in the real circles where Jack's performace of Wayfaring Stranger might not be to your liking, but where the jam would surely continue and no one would care of he was dating Renee or not.

Which begs the question, is Jack White even capable of 'cheapening' Old-Time music, being so obviously outside of the real scene? He's a non-issue to me.

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## John Flynn

Benignus:

Good thoughts. Very persuasive. Thanks.

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## Nathan Sanders

Again I say, I'm no Jack White fan, but I find it interesting that a person of his musical style would step into a completely different genre and do an ok job. But, as said previously, he really is a non-issue concerning old time music. How does one cheapen old timey music anyway? You know, Jack's appearance might bring in new listeners to old timey music, kind of like O Brother did or Johnny Cash's American recordings. But as the Mandrell song says, I was country when country wasn't cool.

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## Michael H Geimer

" But as the Mandrell song says, I was country when country wasn't cool. "

Gosh. The Mandrell Show, I forgot all about that monstrosity. If it were still on-air today, Jack White would be this week's Guest Star.

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## John Flynn

> But as the Mandrell song says, I was country when country wasn't cool


LOL. The song that this situation reminds me of is Alan Jackson's "Gone Country." 

Well the folk scenes's dead, but he's holding out in the village
He's been writing songs, speaking out against wealth and privilege
He says "I don't believe in money, but a man could make him a killin'
'Cause some of that stuff don't sound much different that Dylan
I hear down there it's changed you see
They're not as backward as they used to be"

He's gone country, look at his boots
He's gone country, back to his roots
He's gone country, a new kind of suit
He's gone country, here he comes

I think Alan could add a whole new verse just about Cold Mountain.

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## mad dawg

Sorry Johnny -- I deleted my previous post that you just responded to because I didn't want to come off as trying to "stir the pot". I assume we are referring to him as a star due to his role in the soundtrack, since his film role had relatively little screen time, and his character was lucky to have survived to the end of the movie/book as it was. Perhaps a seasoned veteran of the genre could have been more suitable for this soundtrack, but the same could be said for Ry Cooder and the countless soundtracks he has composed. Ry is constantly investigating and experimenting with different genres, and there are alway people more rooted in the genres he works with than he. Mind you, I am not comparing Ry's and Jack's skils as musicians, but Jack is also experimenting with a new genre here, and he has my respect for that. More power to him for using his fame to stretch his boundaries, and perhaps those of his fans as well.

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## John Flynn

mad dawg:

I appreciate your reply and I don't mean to stir the pot either. As I started to say, old-time is very inclusive of anyone who just wants to just play. However, like other non-commerical genres, it is "anti-star." The real "stars" of old-time are very humble and don't put themselves out front. For a crossover artist to purport to be an old time headliner and then to deliver anything less than a great performance is offensive. If Jack White wants to show up at a jam and just jam, he would be very welcome, I am sure. If Jack White wants to put out an old-time CD and it's really, really good, more power to him. But he came right out of the box as "the man" on the soundtrack for the movie of a book that is near and dear to old-time musicians and he did not do a great job at it. You could call it "Vanilla Ice Syndrome." Wrong guy, wrong place and short of the mark.

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## mad dawg

At least he doesn't have Vanilla Ice's _hair_!

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## fangsdaddy

an genre that seems to be developing is the new generation of string bands bands playing old time music infused/informed w/the striped down attitude & energy of punk rock. 
re: the old crow medicine show, reeltime travelers, tera nevins & friends, the mammals, crooked jades & the haskensaw boys.

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## mad dawg

You can add the Emma Gibbs Band to that list. (Funny thing is, there is neither an Emma nor a Gibbs in the band.  )

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## fangsdaddy

http://www.brokenbricks.com/

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## mad dawg

The Gourds

Way cool: original tunes and covers (including David Bowie and Snoop Dog) by a band fronted by a mandolin and accordian.

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## generankin

Having played (or tried to play) for quite a few decades the sort of Delta stuff that Jack White does with ease, lemme say that he really does grasp the material and the technique. #I confess I do not like all his work, but there's a strength there that's largely absent in modern rock.

I was compelled to watch Cold Mountain, and I confess I hadn't a clue that White was in it.

As to Rolling Stone's List of Greats, they have never had a clue. #Hell, they once had Tina Weymouth as bassist of the year, one of the top 100 of all time. #Gimme a break. #

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## generankin

> I've always liked the saying "real musicians have day jobs." I've used it many times. Another phrase I've seen is "Talking kills music." I saw that one on a t-shirt, pulled over the back of a folding chair that this guy carried with him at a festival where I was playing. Another favorite is "Tune it or die."


"Tune it or die." #I *have* to have that T-shirt! #Anyone have a notion where to find one?

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## Nathan Sanders

Elderly Instruments has a t-shirt that says "Tune It Or Die."

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## Nathan Sanders

Here is a picture from Elderly's web site of the Tune It Or Die shirt.

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## mmukav

I think one slant you can take on Jack White's role in Cold Mountain and the music he performed hasn't been mentioned here. 

He got a chance to do something for a movie, did some other work in the country realm and was smart to give it a try.

Whether or not he was a success seems to be at issue here. If you listen to the White Stripes music you soon get the idea of what he's all about. He seems like a guy who just puts 'it out there' and you can either take it or leave it. 

His music in Cold Mountain was similar, in my view, and if you're a fan you can appreciate it. If you're not, then there are lots of things you can say about his performance that aren't flattering.

I guess my point is that he played some fun old-time music, probably had a great time doin' it, made some money, and now he's off to his next project. Is he one of the great guitarists of our time. Hmmm....I don't know about that. One of the great mandolinists? Duh! A creative induvidual? Yes. Talented? Has to be or he wouldn't have gotten as far as he has. (not that good looking). Quirky, thus interesting? Yes. The best choice for Cold Mountain. No, but when are all roles in all movies picked perfectly.

I say more power to him. His name at least brought some more attention to that genre of music, and I don't think that's all bad.

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## Jim MacDaniel

Just discovered this interesting track from Icky Thump (2007), featuring Jack on mandolin, and backed by Bagpipes: Prickly Thorn, Sweetly Worn.

He also strummed mandolin on Little Ghost, from 2008's Get Behind Me Satan.

(Resurrected on-topic thread, rather than starting one anew.)

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## Jim Nollman

You all might like to take a look at the much more recent documentary film, "It May Get Loud", in which White joins Jimmy Page, and The Edge for a lot of sit down discussion about rock and roll guitar, being in the right place, fame, stomp boxes, etc. 

I had only heard of White before the film from one of my daughters who occasionally played his music in high school. The guy has a very well developed raw style, his over the top bottleneck, reminds me a little bit too much of Elmore James. I had no idea he played on Cold Mountain. In a way, that makes sense to me, because those old timey tunes sound more authentic when the person  who's playing them has carefully honed a lack of musical finesse. Playing that role works good in a film about the Appalachians, although you wouldn't want to hear him playing that same role on stage in a concert. Then it would sound fake.

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## ISU Trout Bum

Oh, this is a great thread. Thanks for its redux Jim!

When the White Stripes first came out I, admittedly, could not stand them. I thought it was a complete joke. I'm still not much of a fan (though I have learned to appreciate ‘Icky Thump’). But, because the wife-unit loves their initial release and still plays it constantly, I've learned to listen to it w/out hearing it, if you know what I mean. 

That said, I fell prey to The Raconteurs a couple of years ago. While driving through Chicago on the way to the in-laws house I had the radio on some Indie station and one of their songs came on. I had no idea who the band was, but I specifically remember thinking, 'This is pretty dang good!'. When the DJ came on after the song and talked about the band, and who formed it . . . well, let’s just say that my wife wouldn't let me off the hook for a while.  :Smile: 

Most recently I saw 'It May Get Loud' and that change my attitude towards him completely. I was impressed by his experimental outlook, and his playing. What really got me was the fact that The Edge clearly could not keep up w/him (and definitely not w/Page) in their group jam. I'm a long-time fan of U2 (I know, I know . . . don’t hate me) and appreciate Edge's playing, but I think the video showed just how well White knows his axe.

All of this got me thinking about groups like The Pogues. When they first came out many people were disgusted. Nevertheless, they introduced an entire generation (or two) to Irish music. Granted, it’s a very particular sort of Irish music, but Irish music nonetheless. It was via Irish Punk that many people (myself included) found and learned to love ITM. Maybe White is doing the same sort of thing by reinterpreting Old Time and Blues songs? Just a thought.

This is pretty okey-dokey:

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## Steve Ostrander

I don't get Jack White or the Stripes either, but they sell more CDs than I do.

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## Paul Kotapish

Here's the wonderful opening clip from It Might Get Loud, which I think kind of sums up Jack White's aesthetic.




I'm not a White Stripes fan or a Jack White fan, particularly, but I think he's dead earnest, talented, and trying hard to make something real.

As for his turn in _Cold Mountain_, I thought it was terrific. I love Tim O'Brien's music (and he produced one of my CDs with Open House), but frankly I think Jack White and his performance was just right for that particular role. A more sophisticated, professional approach to the song would have been completely wrong for the epoch and the specific situation, and I think Jack White did right by it. His version has more in common with the old versions recorded by Hobart Smith or Almeda Riddle than the more recent versions. I just listened to his version again, and I think he got it about right.

Along similar lines, as much as I admire Dan Tyminski and his version of "Man of Constant Sorrow," I thought it would have been completely wrong if the scene portrayed in _O Brother Where Art Thou_  had been played for anything other than laughs. It's great modern bluegrass, but Foggy Bottom Boys sounds way too slick and sophisticated to represent an amateur rural musicians in 1934 Mississippi.

Scholars differ, obviously.

Peace.

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## Ed Goist

Just to add my two cents...
I love everything Jack White has done, he's one of my favorite musicians working today.
Also (as one might guess from the above statement), I find myself very much drawn to raw, feral, primal and unpolished mandolin playing. (Please note that this is very different from 'sloppy' mandolin playing)
Eddie Vedder's _Rise_ is one of my favorite examples of the type of playing I'm most attracted to...I hear this song and think, _"that's what I want my playing to be..."_
One need not always play with the technical skill of David Grisman or Simon Mayor to *AFFECT* the listener.
Thanks;
Ed

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## Jim Nollman

It makes me think of Miles Davis playing a few choice notes on so many records, and blowing the top off several very vibrant grooves. On the other hand, i always appreciated Stevie Ray Vaughan, because he was so fast, but varied his tone so much, and his selection of notes was so creative. 

I''m not a big fan of Jack White, mostly because I don't listen that much to hugely loud and raw music.  But I find it more creative than the silken perfection of your average Eric Clapton album.

I also agree that technical skill is too much of what modern bluegrass is about. The audiences all know the songs, and they demand to hear each band break the songs down a little differently. A blur of speed is considered by many non-musicians as a prime criteria of what we refer to as virtuosity. Speed can sometimes seem the main difference the distinguishes the traveling pros from so many talented local players.  Having said that, my favorite music these days is all these youngish bands that are using bluegrass instruments to play any other kind of music but bluegrass.

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## Perry

> I find myself very much drawn to raw, feral, primal and unpolished mandolin playing. (Please note that this is very different from 'sloppy' mandolin playing)


You gotta check out this guy called Bill Monroe then!  :Wink: 

p.s. Jack White is good at what he does; love the clockwork orange look  :Smile:

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## luckylarue

Jack White is the Real Deal, imo.  He ain't no poser.  He's a modern day Bluesman who draws from many influences.  Besides It Might Get Loud, check out the latest White Stripes documentary of their tour of Canada.  They play concerts and day shows in every province, including the northern-most Inuit capital whose name escapes me.  Besides their nightly concerts, the Stripes play daily free shows in town squares, bowling alleys, tiny cafes, on a city bus, schools and even performing some traditional blues for Inuit elders at their senior center.  Priceless stuff, imo.

(For the record, Meg White is Jack's sister not his ex-wife as a lot of people claim)

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## M.Marmot

I can't say i was overly put out by the inclusion of Jack White in that movie... actually, the one thing that really annoyed me in Cold Mountain was the really badly synched overdubbed singing, in particular the campfire rendition of 'I wish my Babe was Born'. For me that scene finally shatters any illusion the movie might have been making to a sense of authenticity, especially as the highly polished harmony overdub is then followed by Ray Winstone's/Teague singing to himself in his own voice. Somehow, I would have preferred the actors sang in their own voices, blemishes and all, instead of the need for an over dub and an apparent concessions to what we would accord 'good' singing voices today. But, then i'm not the director, i'm just a crank and it was not my call. :Grin: 

The soundtrack i did like, in places, but i'll admit i found it more of a patchy blanket than a patchwork quilt. I do prefer Dirk Powell's and Tim O Brien's take on the songs on their follow album, but then, thats not exactly rocking the boat.

As for Mr. White and his music, i am not overly familiar with it, but i do know that it was thanks to the White Stripes that i managed to sell an cheap acoustic electric to help fund the purchase of my current mandolin, so i'll always think kindly of him if only for that :Wink:

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## Jim MacDaniel

> Jack White is the Real Deal, imo.  He ain't no poser.  He's a modern day Bluesman who draws from many influences...


Agreed -- he is definitely a musician of depth and talent, one who happens to have reaped some level of success in the industry though his hard work (and is not merely an "entertainer" as inaccurately suggested earlier in this thread).

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## JeffD

I have seen their lists before.

Rolling Stone could tell me the sky is blue, and I would look out the window and check.

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## JeffD

> This is pretty okey-dokey:


Yea it was nice. Not something I would turn on, but not something I would turn off.

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## JeffD

Jack White is on the cover of a new woman's magazine, playing an A style mandolin. Don't ask me how I know.

http://www.venuszine.com/issues/53

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## JeffD

I can only assume he is strumming it with his bare thumb.

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## Ed Goist

Not really very Old-Time..._But certainly very 'Jack'..._
From NPR.org - Bonnaroo 2010: Dead Weather In Concert

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## Don Christy

I enjoy Jack's guitar playing and think he's quite talented. I was not a fan of The Dead Weather when my wife started listening to them. Then she drug me to a show. I couldn't keep my eyes off Alison Mosshart, the lead singer. Her voice is a little inaccessible, but I thought the way she responded physically to the music was mesmerizing. I may have talked a little too much and a little too passionately about it... Hope my wife doesn't find this thread. And if you do, sweetheart, she's not my type!

If you like raw, loud, music, definitely worth checking out if only for Alison. BTW, Jack plays drums for this band. 
Don

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## journeybear

There was a good bit of discussion about a lot of these subjects a few months ago on this thread. The short version of my input is I learned more about Jack White in the movie "It Might Get Loud" than Jimmy Page or The Edge, and as a result he earned more respect from me. The opening sequence in which he builds a primitive electric guitar is brilliant - thanks for posting that, Paul. I found the movie disappointing overall, though - too much talk, not enough music, and the only time they really jam is an acoustic jam over the closing credits on The Band's "The Weight." Heck, I can do that any week with my friends; I wanted something transcendent, like a cutting session among three top-notch _electric_ guitarists. The other side of that coin is it shows how deeply The Band's influence runs - providing common ground for three guitarists with disparate backgrounds and styles from three generations.

Since The White Stripes came along and became so successful a number of guitar-drum duos have sprung up - The Ting Tings made the biggest splash - but Jack mentioned Flat Duo Jets in the film, and their version of "Froggie Went A-Courtin'" is pretty wild:



Wonder how Jim's turkeys would react to that?  :Chicken:

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## Steve Ostrander

Yeah, I've said all along that I don't get Jack White, and I certainly don't get his ex-wife drummer. I can name ten drummers in my hometown that are better than her that are still playing in bars. To include him on the list, at #17, is an insult, IMHO.

We all know that these lists tend to be popularity contests. When they publish a list that was compiled by Clapton, Gibbons, Knopfler, Van Halen, et al, then I'll pay attention.

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## jim simpson

Icky Thump is cool, I love "Conquest" and I also like the Raconteurs. My wife is used to hearing me play mandolin  or acoustic guitar so I usually get a "what are you listening to?!?!" when I listen to any of Jack White's cd's.  I usually enjoy them while driving alone in the car.
.

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## JeffD

> Flat Duo Jets in the film, and their version of "Froggie Went A-Courtin'" is pretty wild:


Couldn't be improved upon. Well, unless Joe Cocker did a version.

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## catmandu2

> Jack will be the T Bone of the future. He is young now but exploring.I think we will see interesting thinhs from the retro rocker who digs ol' time music.


Yep.

Re a RS "greatest ever" list: haven't seen it, but I'd guess that it's likely concerning sphere of influence.  Not surprising that Hendrix is #1.

Also not surprising that many older folks don't get the gen-x, post-punk, DIY, goth aesthetic that Jack represents.  I wasn't particularly into the Clash in 1980, but I've since "gotten" what it's all about.  I was raised on rock--it's still "the same."

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## parttimepicker

The White Stripes have put out some great music.  If you're into rock, that is... (and I am)

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## Patrick Sylvest

I appreciate Jack White's music. I prefer the Raconteurs and I think more acoustic music from him might be interesting.

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## f5loar

Frist let me say I ran into Jack White at Gruhn's (he's a guitar collector) and we had a great chat together about Loretta Lynn and other guitar things a few years ago.  He is a super nice guy and not stuck up like many rock nobles.  He is from Nova Socia which I don't think anyone has mentioned and that is not his ex wife but his sister.  I think her drumming is so unique and into the groove with her brother's guitar playing it works.  Sure she may not be able to sub for Pink Floyd or Led Zepplin but she has her own style and it worked in the White Stripes which are no longer together.  Last time I saw Jack on a late night TV show he was playing drums and singing.  So he is multi instrument talented with mandolin being one of them.  Like him or not he is the real deal as a true artist and one of the few newer age rockers I like.  There was recently a documentery about the White Stripes on their 10 year tour of Canada.  You got to hear his take on what he does and his views on music and it was most entertaining and just further enhanced my fondness for his music.

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## Larry S Sherman

> that is not his ex wife but his sister.


I gotta disagree with you there...not his sister. That is all part of Jack White's self-created mythology.

"_In the early 1990s, Meg White worked as a bartender at Memphis Smoke, a bar in downtown Royal Oak  (a Detroit suburb), where she first met musician/songwriter John Anthony "Jack" Gillis. They were married on September 21, 1996.In his characteristically unorthodox fashion, Gillis took her last name. They were divorced on March 24, 2000._"

Also although he's of Canadian descent, he's not from Nova Scotia. "_White, the youngest of ten children (seven sons, three daughters), was born in Detroit, Michigan, the son of Teresa and Gorman Gillis._" I certainly don't doubt that he told you that he was though, or possibly said that in the documentary. I would chalk that up also to Jack being Jack.

Larry

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## f5loar

Then he is living the myth pretty good.  Every magazine I've read on him says she is his sister.  Could the sister/ex wife be from Nova Soctia?

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## Paul Kotapish

Here's an interesting article about Jack's ruse: http://www.time.com/time/sampler/art...130930,00.html

It suggests that Meg White was from Grosse Pointe, Michigan, a suburban area near Detroit.

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## JeffD

> Also not surprising that many older folks don't get the gen-x, post-punk, DIY, goth aesthetic that Jack represents.  I wasn't particularly into the Clash in 1980, but I've since "gotten" what it's all about.  I was raised on rock--it's still "the same."


Every generation gets to "re-discover" the wheel. 

After seeing the cycle a few times you say "here it comes again, only this time instead of XXXX its YYYY.

And as always, there are those who "get it" and are proud of it, and those that don't "get it" and are proud of it, and those so involved in their own thing that it went by before they realized it was something to notice.

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## catmandu2

`By "the same," I didn't mean that at all in a pejorative sense.  Rather, I meant that the elements of rock music -- primal energy, simple musical form, robust groove -- is present in all such music, new or old.  In my case, having an appreciation and background in rock music provides me a basis for  understanding and connecting with new styles.

I didn't listen to Nirvana very much, but I understand the appeal.  I wasn't crazy about all the "new wave," electronic "industrial" minimalist scene from the 70s and 80s, but I understand the appeal.  While it started out from rockabilly and R&B, rock music since 1980 has evolved profoundly and was heavily influenced by the Clash, Nirvana, New Order and many such electronic new wave bands.  These days, the music shows major influence from reggae and Bob Marley, hip-hop, and the more recent "roots" trend.  I always say, when someone suggests that all the new rock is #### (not implying that's the case here), that you'd have to understand the influence from these styles.  That's the method of all such art critique, of course.

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## journeybear

FWIW - In case anyone cares (apparently some do) Jack White is the musical guest on the premiere episode of the new Conan O'Brien Show - called just "Conan" - tonight on TBS at 11 PM EST.

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## Ed Goist

> FWIW - In case anyone cares (apparently some do) Jack White is the musical guest on the premiere episode of the new Conan OBrien Show debuting tonight on TBS at 11 PM.


*HUGE Thanks Journeybear! AWESOME!*

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## journeybear

Whew! Well, I guess it's clear how YOU feel about JW! grin:

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## Jim MacDaniel

> *HUGE Thanks Journeybear! AWESOME!*


huge. thanks journeybear. awesome.

(What a difference a few well placed exclaimation points and caps make  :Wink:  )

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## journeybear

Presentation does indeed affect perception, and thus communication, if not necessarily content.  :Wink: 

True enough.

True. Enough!

 :Whistling:

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## Jim MacDaniel

BTW, I was looking forward to JW on Conan almost as much as Ed (in spite of my lower case post  :Wink:  ), but I forgot to record it -- any one out there see it?

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## journeybear

Why. yes, of course! The selection was the old rockabilly chestnut "Twenty Flight Rock," and Conan jammed along. No great shakes, really. The band is now called the Jimmy Vivino something-or-other - so Max Weinberg has moved on - and though I couldn't see how many were retained from the old band, I hope La Bamba is still with them. BTW, Conan and Lopez Tonight repeat the same night, so if you miss either show, tune in again two hours later. Also, the Conan shows may show up as On Demand selections a week later, same as Lopez Tonight shows. Check in a week.

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## Ed Goist

> Presentation does indeed affect perception, and thus communication, if not necessarily content.


This sounds like a review of my mandolin playing...long on flourish, short on content.

I was disappointed by the JW performance on Conan  :Frown: 
JW is best when not accompanied by horns or talk show hosts...
_Conan, you have a nice silver and black Les Paul...but please play it at home..._
BTW, La Bamba is still with the band...I spotted his trademark hat.

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## journeybear

Ouch! Conan has actually gotten better - he got some good licks in on the final jam of his last Tonight Show - but I agree, just let Jack play. Perhaps while he was off the air he was besieged by requests from his legions of fans demanding more of this from him. We'll see ...

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## Ed Goist

The master at work...




P.S.: I'm madly in love with Meg White.

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## Larry S Sherman

> The master at work...


He is a master of three mandolin chords?

I don't agree with the hype around jack White. I don't see the talent, integrity, musicality, etc. I only see image, misdirection, and self-promotion. I was literally cringing whenever he took a solo on that Conan performance.



Larry

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## Ed Goist

> He is a master of three mandolin chords?
> I don't agree with the hype around jack White.
> ...snip...
> Larry


Hi Larry:
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'm glad you've expressed yours. 
Obviously, debating about something like this is a futile enterprise, so I'll avoid that.
I would like to say, however, that technical prowess on an instrument does not equal mastery as a performer. The most technically skilled players are usually not the best entertainers. 
The most technically skilled players usually only appeal to other musicians...A most unfortunate demographic to have as the core of one's fan base. (and before I get flamed about this, it's just a joke...kinda'... :Wink:  )

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## Larry S Sherman

> Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'm glad you've expressed yours.


Certainly no offense meant. 

I keep waiting for him to do something I like, but haven't found anything yet. For some reason he just keeps rubbing me wrong. The best thing he's done in my opinion was his work with Loretta Lynn.

There are great artists out there writing amazing songs, like Jeff Tweedy/Wilco for example, who's music will probably stand the test of time along with Neil Young, Springsteen, Dylan, etc. I just don't think that this is true of jack White. 

Maybe it's his presentation that I react so strongly to? I do like the Punch Brothers version of "_Dead Leaves of the Dirty Ground_".

I'll try to keep an open mind.

Larry

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## Ed Goist

> Certainly no offense meant. 
> ...snip...
> Larry


Thanks for the reply. No offense taken, at all...*This is all just fun stuff - Nothing serious here*. Personal preferences are interesting, no?
Plus, I'll be the first to admit that my admiration for all things 'White Stripes' may very likely be traceable to my profound infatuation with Meg White.
(Oh, and BTW, that National RM-1 in your photo album is just killer!)

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## Larry S Sherman

> Plus, I'll be the first to admit that my admiration for all things 'White Stripes' may very likely be traceable to my profound infatuation with Meg White.


I feel the same about Scarlett Johansson, but I still couldn't enjoy her Tom Waits cover album.

The National is a great instrument. Vintage Nationals (especially German silver) may sound sweeter, but the new ones are really versatile and focused.

Larry

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## journeybear

Scarlett Johansson doing Tom Waits? Sounds like she would be a bit out of her depth there. Heck, Tom Waits can barely do Tom Waits.  :Grin:  But, hey, as Casey Kasem said - keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars. One movie star whose musical career has impressed me is Zooey Deschanel. Everything I've heard from She & Him, the duo she has with M. Ward, has struck me as quite pleasant, reminiscent of the lighter, happier side of the 60s.

Back to Jack - I don't hear anything that bad in that song. Maybe nothing outstanding or deserving of hype, but I don't see why that would be a consideration. Just a decent jam, that's all. As someone said (can't remember who at the moment), it's only rock 'n' roll.  :Mandosmiley:

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## mandolirius

> I would like to say, however, that technical prowess on an instrument does not equal mastery as a performer. The most technically skilled players are usually not the best entertainers.


It seems to me like you're trying to have it both ways. I believe that "mastery", in this case of an instrument, does indeed equal technical prowess. It's the very definition of it, in fact. 

As to who are the best entertainers, that's an entirely different story. Jack White is obviously a successful entertainer. Is he a master of the mandolin? Probably not.

When you described him as "the master at work", were you referring to his skills as an entertainer or his mastery of the mandolin? It seems like your penchant for lavish praise often detracts from the idea you're wanting to communicate.

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## journeybear

I don't meant to put words in Ed's mouth, but I think he is referring  to Jack as a master of music in general, not mandolin in specific (and possibly he was being a bit tongue-in-cheek). I could be wrong here, but I don't think the subject of Jack's mandolin playing has come up here before can't check easily; mandolin is a tough word to search on here as it occurs too frequently). In fact, this video is the first time I've been made aware he has played one. 

That said, there is nothing wrong with having it both ways, if you have the talent in both areas of performance. (I think the term showman is more appropriate than entertainer, in this context.) Being a showman means you can entertain without being technically proficient - take Tiny Tim (please!) Being a great musician without being a great showman brings to mind people who play brilliantly but have the stage presence of a lump, like Jerry Garcia or Miles Davis. Don't misunderstand me - I have nothing against that. Indeed, I belong to and have many heroes/idols/avatars in this school, the shut-up-and-play school. But I am a musician, and that means my tastes as an audience member are not mainstream. Those who can do both - play great music and put on a good show - get referred to in glowing tones and are the subject of much idolization. They are revered as would be a Madonna. Or Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, Shakira, and on and on. A lot of this is post-MTV, which is a whole 'nother subject.

I don't know how much of this has to do with Jack White. I don't find him that interesting to watch, nor Meg either. (and Ed - bite your tongue! Or I'm going to tell Rebecca Lovell.  :Wink:  ) But musically, I guess he's OK in my book. At least I'm interested enough to see him whenever he's on the tube and hear what he will do next that I haven't written him off. Yet.  :Wink:

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## mandolirius

> I don't meant to put words in Ed's mouth,...


On the contrary, you do and you did.   :Wink:

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## Ed Goist

> ...snip...
>  It seems like your penchant for lavish praise often detracts from the idea you're wanting to communicate.


I think one of the main reasons I seem to have a _'penchant for lavish praise'_ on the Cafe forums is that I tend to just not say anything about the subjects/issues/comments/opinions about which I have a negative opinion. I just don't think anything on these boards is important enough to get into a scrap over. 
Plus, you will find I always lavish praise (and will proudly continue to do so) for the videos, playing skills, and new instruments of all posters. To do otherwise is not only bad form, but is also either an example of raining on someone's parade, or stealing their thunder.
I have considerable prowess as a writer and can easily convey any ideas I choose to. I just figure that most of the time here congeniality and support for other members is more important. After all, we all play an instrument most people think is just a kid's guitar.
Again, Mandolirius, awesome post. :-)

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## Ed Goist

_(eliminated a post that showed-up twice...How odd?)
Sorry about that._

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## Jim MacDaniel

> ...After all, we all play an instrument most people think is just a kid's guitar.


Dang -- and all this time I though I was playing an 8-string Uke.

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## mandolirius

> I think one of the main reasons I seem to have a _'penchant for lavish praise'_ on the Cafe forums is that I tend to just not say anything about the subjects/issues/comments/opinions about which I have a negative opinion. I just don't think anything on these boards is important enough to get into a scrap over. 
> Plus, you will find I always lavish praise (and will proudly continue to do so) for the videos, playing skills, and new instruments of all posters. To do otherwise is not only bad form, but is also either an example of raining on someone's parade, or stealing their thunder.
> I have considerable prowess as a writer and can easily convey any ideas I choose to. I just figure that most of the time here congeniality and support for other members is more important. After all, we all play an instrument most people think is just a kid's guitar.
> Again, Mandolirius, awesome post. :-)


Ed, stop calling my posts "awesome". I don't have to take that kind of lavish praise from the likes of you.   :Grin:

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## Ed Goist

> Ed, stop calling my posts "awesome". I don't have to take that kind of lavish praise from the likes of you.


LOL - Well played! (Is that okay to say?)  :Laughing:

----------


## chasray

> Heck, Tom Waits can barely do Tom Waits.


You almost made me spew coffee on my keyboard.....

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## journeybear

> On the contrary, you do and you did.


Hmmm, yes, I suppose that was a poor choice for a cliché. Should have said, "I don't mean to speak for Ed, but ..." or "What I think Ed meant by that is..." or "If I may be so bold as to guess what Ed was thinking ..." or ... eh ,,, well, anyway ...  :Whistling:

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## Ed Goist

> ...snip...
> It seems like your penchant for lavish praise often detracts from the idea you're wanting to communicate.


Please indulge me for just one more OT post here, I thought it worthwhile.

I went back and looked over many of my recent posts, and I must say, they are pretty packed with lavish praise. So, I'll plead guilty as charged. Thinking about this, I realized that this isn't due exclusively to my desire to show an _Esprit de corps_ here on the Cafe, it's also due to the fact that I am as _enthusiastic_ about the mandolin as I have been about anything in recent memory.

I am incredibly grateful for this. This type of enthusiasm is a great thing to have when one is over fifty. I find myself anxious and full of anticipation about getting home from work or wherever to play my mandolin...In 35 years on guitar playing I almost never felt that way.

Also, in just 8 months of playing the mandolin, I believe my mandolin playing is better than my guitar playing ever was. (Of course, this isn't saying very much...My prowess at playing mandolin can be found firmly rooted between _'non-existent'_ and _infinitesimal_.)

Anyways, I just wanted to say that I am remarkably grateful for finding this magnificent (please forgive the superlative) little instrument, and this wonderful forum...They both mean a great deal to me.

BTW, JB, Gwyneth Paltrow is on tonight's episode of _Glee_, and she's working some major Mojo...Strong competition for Rebecca and Meg...This is like the 'Gibson vs. Weber vs. Collings Debate' for me.  :Grin:

----------


## journeybear

> ... BTW, JB, Gwyneth Paltrow is on tonight's episode of _Glee_, and she's working some major Mojo...


Dammit! I have been avoiding this show like the plague - way too preposterous even for this fan of "Lost," "Heroes," and "Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles." Now I have to suffer through this overblown tripe for the 4-5 minutes of Gwynny? I yi yi! Thank engineers for PIP.  :Wink:  I gotta say - I wish MY high school had had that kind of funding for the arts. Our glee club, um, held sheet music and sang songs ...

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## mandolirius

[QUOTE=Ed Goist;858773]I went back and looked over many of my recent posts, and I must say, they are pretty packed with lavish praise. So, I'll plead guilty as charged. Thinking about this, I realized that this isn't due exclusively to my desire to show an _Esprit de corps_ here on the Cafe, it's also due to the fact that I am as _enthusiastic_ about the mandolin as I have been about anything in recent memory.

I am incredibly grateful for this. This type of enthusiasm is a great thing to have when one is over fifty. I find myself anxious and full of anticipation about getting home from work or wherever to play my mandolin...In 35 years on guitar playing I almost never felt that way.

Also, in just 8 months of playing the mandolin, I believe my mandolin playing is better than my guitar playing ever was. (Of course, this isn't saying very much...My prowess at playing mandolin can be found firmly rooted between _'non-existent'_ and _infinitesimal_.)

Anyways, I just wanted to say that I am remarkably grateful for finding this magnificent (please forgive the superlative) little instrument, and this wonderful forum...They both mean a great deal to me.[QUOTE]

I like that reply and couldn't agree more. Those who have a passion for something in middle age have, imho, a greater chance of enjoying life well into their senior years. Glad the mandolin is providing you with that opportunity.

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## JeffD

Back to Jack. 

The worst I can say is he is not to my taste. At least he has been seen playing mandolin more than once or twice. Sometimes seeing a mandolin get played by a popular performer is as important as seeing it get played intrestingly.


In response to a challenge by a good friend of mine, I have started working on "Little Ghost" to see what can be done to make it more interesting music. I kind of like the "oookie" lyrics. I have a singer working with me on it, and she is trying the song in a slower more sorrowful style, and I am trying some double stops and stuff. Its fun, and funny, but not yet ready for prime time.

----------


## John Ritchhart

Look guys, the real reason I started this thread six years ago,  :Disbelief:  was to learn everything there is to know about Renee Zellweger and you guys keep talking about Jack White!  :Whistling:

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## journeybear

OHHH!!! It suddenly becomes abundantly clear ... NOT!!!  :Laughing:  Well, next time (if there is one) put the fabulous Ms Z's name in the thread title and see where it leads ... Pardon us for taking it literally.  :Whistling:  Personally, I'm a fan, have been for years, was knocked out by her singing and dancing talents (hitherto unknown, same with Catherine Zeta-Jones) in "Chicago," and until Amy Adams came along (enchanted by her in "Enchanted"), she was probably my #1 Hollywood heart throb. And hey - anyone who decides to have her marriage to Kenny Chesney annulled by reason of fraud  :Disbelief:  is A-OK with me. She had ME at hello.  :Wink:

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## catmandu2

> ...I believe that "mastery", in this case of an instrument, does indeed equal technical prowess. It's the very definition of it, in fact. 
> 
> As to who are the best entertainers, that's an entirely different story. Jack White is obviously a successful entertainer. Is he a master of the mandolin? Probably not.
> 
> When you described him as "the master at work", were you referring to his skills as an entertainer or his mastery of the mandolin? It seems like your penchant for lavish praise often detracts from the idea you're wanting to communicate.


I wouldn't be surprised--from what I've seen/heard from Jack--if he himself wouldn't be unlikely to use the word "master" in reference to himself.  IMO, Jack's strengths are curiosity, experimentation, and a rocking aesthetic, and I wouldn't be surprised if that is all he'd claim particular "mastery" over.




> I don't see the talent, integrity, musicality, etc. I only see image, misdirection, and self-promotion.


Well, that's half of the rock milieu.  It's music for the id, after all..

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## allenhopkins

This is the weirdest "Old-Time, Roots, Early Country..." etc. thread I've ever followed.  Jack White is an actor and rocker who got cast as a Civil War-era musician in a movie.  His old-timey creds pretty much stop there.  He's an interesting actor, with tons of energy, and a fairly prolific if uneven musician.  What were we expecting, Riley Puckett?

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## Ed Goist

I must admit...The many times I've posted to this thread, I've assumed I was in the Rock genre sub-forum...How out of it am I?

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## journeybear

You're not the only one, buddy! it was posted in this forum originally because of his association with the music in the movie "Cold Mountain." As those more familiar with his music are aware, that was a bit out of his usual range; ditto his collaboration with Loretta Lynn. The OP didn't know who he was. If you read the first three posts, it could have ended there - asked and answered. But nooooooooo ... This is the Meanderin' Café, dontcha know.  :Wink:  More than six years later, here we are.  :Laughing:

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## Mike Bunting

FWI

A very cool thing the White Stripes did on a tour to Canada in 2007 is that they played a bunch of free concerts in places like a youth shelter in Edmonton, in Iqaluit in the N.W.T and many other unexpected places across the country. These "secret" shows were only publicized at the last moment to avoid overloading the venues.

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## catmandu2

> This is the weirdest "Old-Time, Roots, Early Country..." etc. thread I've ever followed.  Jack White is an actor and rocker who got cast as a Civil War-era musician in a movie.  His old-timey creds pretty much stop there.  He's an interesting actor, with tons of energy, and a fairly prolific if uneven musician.  What were we expecting, Riley Puckett?





> I must admit...The many times I've posted to this thread, I've assumed I was in the Rock genre sub-forum...How out of it am I?


Well, without recollection of what the OP stated...IMO, why not?: considering the cross-fertilization and boundary-blurring of post modernism generally and the amalgam of roots-Americana genre music specifically.  From what I've seen/heard from Jack, it seems that his roots aesthetic is wide and embraces elements of tradition.  I don't know where Jack grew up, but I grew up around Detroit (we lived in Royal Oak, but I spent my _leisure_ time up and down Woodward Ave)--was nearly crushed multiple times at Rush concerts at the Michigan Palace, and only knew "country" music via the Allman Brothers.  In the mostly white suburbs, we heard a lot of soul music too, but I'm sure that Glen Frey (I went to school with his brother) mostly listened to rock music too, and I did learn banjo because of Bernie Leadon's break on JB's Take It Easy.  Some, what--35 years later, I still enjoy Gram, Emmylou, Gene, et al., and passed through Bernie to Earl...to Dock and others who preceded them.  It's the next generation.  It's inevitable.  I think the difficulty is in maintaining categories--especially_ these days_, but this is hardly worth spending much time with.

IMO, there is much convergence on many levels, especially, between punk, post-punk, garage, industrial, no wave, DIY, roots, old-time, early country--especially _these days_.  Are we getting old?  Today's old time/roots/early country is evolving not unlike other genres.  Today's old-time/roots players have assimilated--maybe even were raised on--Elvis, Chuck Berry, Laverne & Shirley, Beatles, Ravi Shankar (my mind was first blown musically by Shakti at the Royal Oak Theatre when I was 18) and the Clash.  And my favorites at the time--Zepplin and the Stones--were listening to Howlin Wolf, Muddy Waters, et al.  Think of the influence that Gram Parsons has had: he inspired Keith Richards et al. to play country/roots-Americana, who in turn influenced countless others, and the next stop after Keith is Robert Johnson, Muddy and Wolf (and of course Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley, et al.)  This is a very direct lineage, and hugely influential--the Stones (and others of course) combined rock with _American_ country, and served it up to millions.  And understand the impact of punk, and the next big thing--hip hop.

And of course, this was before the computer and the net...there're no limits to influences these days.

For me, the only real distinction amid any of this is old-time vs _new_ old-time, or trad vs post-trad, or something..  IME, this is what the "roots-Americana" rubrck comprises.  Allen, have you heard Uncle Tupelo's "No Depression" album? (it's mostly grunge rock).  One could say: Jeff Tweedy isn't roots-Americana...especially playing spaced-out noise music with Nels Cline (whom I liked as a jazz player), but popularly, Uncle Tup _defined_ the genre.

Maybe listen to Jay Farrar to make the transition easier--he's doing a lot of acoustic folk-rock.  And there are acts that make a more "overt" transition--like Old Crow Medicne Show, and all those UK bands that combined ITM with post-punk grunge, but use acoustic instruments and simpler forms.  But look, just as rock(abilly) infiltrated everything after, via Chuck Berry, and punk twenty years later, even techno, club, and of course hip-hop will be within the vernacular of "roots" musicians of the future.

And, why use Jack's acting in old-time themed movies to doubt his old-time/roots cred?--his role may be something that helps him express his interest in the music and culture.  Elvis was also an actor.  Jack is the new Keith Richards--his goth look resembles that of Keith more than Elvis, but the evolution of modernism has also allowed those lacking "screen idol looks" to succeed in modern cinema, etc.  I'll take Jack over Garth Brooks, et al.  Which reminds me: just think of all the Schlocky "country" stars who have the look, but lack a musical gravitas, who would fit comfortably in these categories...which is how the DIY/garage, deconstruction, substance over style aesthetic gets under way in the first place.  I find it (and Jack White) refreshing.

As with anything in art critique, we look at the process.  Rock is huge.  Huger than huge.  Rock (and jazz) has pervaded virtually every style of music (and culture) around the world.  It is profoundly influential.  Not surprising that it will turn up in various new forms of American music, based on tradition.  For some, good art is "realism"--the precise rendering of something immediately familiar and recognizable.  For me, real art is abstract--art obviously can comprise the precise rendering of advanced technique, but is not dependent upon it; the artistic achievement is a unique or otherwise meaningful *treatment* of elements.  Therefore, the forms will change, but they will share qualities.  It's a difficult proposition--and perhaps fruitless--these days, to keep track of relative purity of forms.  Pedigree, for me, is losing its allure.  Today, you can sit in your bedroom and study Indian music--or anything else on youtube--all day long: after studying diligently 8 hours a day for 20 years, most of those for whom you play will hear "authentic Indian music," but there will always be a handful who declare that it is not.  Who cares?

Whew, what a rant..

----------


## catmandu2

> ...His old-timey creds pretty much stop there.


Aside from the use of electricity (see the amplication, electrification thread in the "Equipment" forum), what's not old-timey about this?




This is in the tradition of fixing a tire innertube or some strand to the side of the house...adding electricity (a pretty basic additive).  Remember the one called "One-string"?  Minimalism, primitivism, rawness, energy: these are part of the tradition too..

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## Samjessin

So is Jack White not supposed to play Old-time music because he is famous?  Is it because he plays rock and roll, also?  What do any of us know about his background, his introduction to the music, etc?  

BTW, his rendition of Sitting on Top of The World on the Cold Mountain soundtrack is the first time I heard it performed in the phrasing used by the Mississippi Sheiks.  This seems to be an indication that he respects the traditions.  And even if he doesn't, he is interpreting traditions in his own way, that is pretty folky.

I cannot believe there are six pages of this!  Oh boy, to be famous.  I could have six pages of message board banter about the fact that I play mandolin!

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## JeffD

We always get into trouble trying to categorize musicians - for all the reasons stated above.

A jazz piano player friend of mine, who has the uncanny ability to simplify the most complex of arguements - put it this way. If you have to argue whether a particular musician is or isn't X, he isn't. If you have to explain it to him, then its not obvious, and if it isn't obvious, it isn't the case.

I don't always agree with him, but he never fails to add some insight.


I am confident we would not even be talking about White if it weren't for his blacktop Gibson F4. And there are many OT musicians we discuss who are not mandolinists.

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## journeybear

> ... If you have to argue whether a particular musician is or isn't X, he isn't. If you have to explain it to him, then its not obvious, and if it isn't obvious, it isn't the case.


That's a pretty darned good rule of thumb.




> I am confident we would not even be talking about White if it weren't for his blacktop Gibson F4. And there are many OT musicians we discuss who are not mandolinists.


Is that old-timey musicians or off-topic musicians?  :Confused: 

I think the topic would be moot if it weren't for the fact that the bulk of Jack White's musical output is so far removed from old-timey as to make his foray into that area seem absurd. But I don't see why a musician should be restricted from exploring any genre that interests him. Besides, there are segments in the movie that clearly show he has had a longtime interest in roots music, whether or not it shows in his main style or body of work. But yes, we wouldn't be talking about him for so long nor even at all if he weren't well-known. And I am grateful we have, as it was rather late in the discussion that I learned he played mandolin, if infrequently. I'm all for having the instrument being played, heard, and seen as much as it can be, and only hope it is done well - and at least on that song, that seems to be the case.  :Mandosmiley:

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## catmandu2

> If you have to argue whether a particular musician is or isn't X, he isn't. If you have to explain it to him, then its not obvious, and if it isn't obvious, it isn't the case.
> 
> I am confident we would not even be talking about White if it weren't for his blacktop Gibson F4. And there are many OT musicians we discuss who are not mandolinists.


On the first point: this seems a pithy remark, but for me it suggests the completely opposite perspective of this issue that I find useful and interesting.  What I find of use regarding categorizing and labeling of musicians/artists is in fact the discourse that ensues: discussing differences and similarities--comparing and contrasting--analyzing the work in various contexts--musical, historical, aesthetic, etc.--perhaps even learning something along the way.  To approach it with a dismissive--"if I have to tell ya, then it's not worth mentioning"--mentality is emphasizing exactly the wrong point of view, IMO.  There's a lot going on in music--we can learn about people, our environment, ourselves, and perhaps even enjoy a musical moment by careful analysis and critique of the arts.

On the second point: I disagree wholeheartedly; I would be discussing JW--as I find much of his music interesting (even from a roots/old time perspective).  I wasn't aware that he possessed a blacktop Gibson F4--or any mandolin for that matter.  I have seen him play electric and acoustic guitar on TV and youtube, and one-string.

For example:

From the former perspective, we could say--"JW is not roots/old time, has no business being discussed here, goodbye, end of story.  Now, let's get back to discussing mandolins.  Wait a minute...JW played a mandolin?  Ah, okay, well, that's nice."

From a broader perspective, we can discuss expressions of new and old forms in mandolin-related music.

Personally, I learn more from a broader perspective.  And I appreciate being able to chat about stuff here.  Thanks to those who induldge me.

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## Don Julin

I like Jack White! Old time, blues, rock, punk, call it what you want but this guy is out there playing real music on  real instruments in a time that doing so has fallen out of style. Hopefully Jack will inspire a new generation of kids to ask for a guitar or mandolin for Christmas instead of a XBox or a PS2 or whatever mindless video game is trendy this year. Rock On!!!!

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## catmandu2

Jeff, why the disdain for JW?  From the adjacent thread, you propose:

"Here's the idea.

Take an old war horse of a tune. Preferabley something you have heard a thousand times more than you ever want to hear it. Something that makes you fidget when a newbie plays the tune with enthusiasm.

Take that tune and find a way to make it interesting again. No big changes to the tune, but can we play it in a way that the tune shines again, and will make the most jaded of old fiddlers want to play it."

Granted, JW's particular treatment of old-time/roots music may not make you "want to play it," But, doesn't it have some value in this idiom?, perhaps even in the context you advocate above?  I believe I've heard, in the few clips I've seen of him, JW doing old, old-time, songs.  I can certainly understand that JW's music may not be your cup of tea from a listening perspective--he certainly is raw.  But I hazard to guess that, there are many younger folks who are digging Jack's brand of raw music.  There's a kind of renaissance for old-time string music happening (in my town) and bluegrass is enjoying inclusion--or may even be catalyst.

I'm beginning to think that maybe this is part of the issue?: The feeling that scores of young people are learning or listening to bad or wrong so-called old-time music, when they could be learning and listening to the "real thing"...

There's a lot of this kind of stuff (DIY/roots/rock music) going on.  At the very least, this music should represent some value to those who are interested in promoting the mandolin and its music...that is, if we can get past our quality standards.  At the risk of being repetitious: I was turned on to banjo, pedal steel guitar, and mandolin through the likes of Zep and the Stones (and Jimmy's banjo, pedal steel, and mando playing is pretty rudimentary, but effective).  I'm confident that younger folks are being turned on to roots forms, Loretta Lynn, even mandolin...by Jack White.  Don't worry--just as I eventually learned to do more with the mandolin than what Jimmy did with it on those Zep records, kids will transcend the three chord strumming JW employs and go on to bigger and better mando things.  But the catalyst effect is signirficant, I think.

I wonder if you guys have the same adverse reaction to those UK bands (don't recall the names--someone help me) that pound the mandolin like a punk guitar, even though the mandolin features prominently in that idiom.

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## allenhopkins

Sometimes I think our basic inferiority complexes show through in cases like this.  When some celebrity makes a bit of a gesture toward the music in which we're immersed, we get so excited and grateful!  "Oh look, there's George Clooney in bib overalls lip-synching Dan Tyminski's _Man Of Constant Sorrow_!  Now everyone's going to want to learn about Grayson & Whittier and take up the mandolin!"

Jack White is an interesting, creative, energetic actor and musician.  As I said above, he had a role as an old-timey musician in _Cold Mountain,_ where he played mandolin and sang _Sittin' On Top of the World._  Should I add that both the instrument and the song were inauthentic if you want historical accuracy?  Very few mandolins in the rural South in 1865, and the song first showed up around 1930.  Hey, but who's nit-picking?  Go to Hollywood for accurate history, and you'll be disappointed.

Since then, he's shown some interest in traditional or "roots" (I do hate that word!) American music, along with his ongoing rock'n'roll and movie career.  Fine.  Glad he's discovered something that most of us have known for much longer: that there's a treasure-house of wonderful songs and tunes out there, a wide variety of great instrumental styles and techniques.  This isn't really totally "breaking news" to non-Appalachian audiences; the New Lost City Ramblers started in the late 1950's, "citybillies" researching and re-creating rural music styles and repertoire, and many many musicians have done it since.

There are these recurrent spasms of interest in old-timey etc. music, usually focused around some movie: _Bonnie & Clyde, Deliverance, O Brother, Songcatcher, Cold Mountain,_ etc.  I think it's great that they occur, and am so glad that "roots" (I do hate that word!) musicians like Ralph Stanley and the Fairfield Four get an infusion of popularity (and remunerative bookings) from their participation.  But to get all hot-and-bothered about a Hollywood figure who takes what may be a passing interest in old-timey music seems quite disproportionate.

I'm more interested in, and appreciative of, someone like Gillian Welch, who comes from a non-"roots" (have I mentioned that I hate that word?) background, but assimilates and truly understands the style, and creatively furthers the tradition by adding to it.  Sara Carter could have sung _Orphan Girl,_ and I have a feeling that Welch's _ouvre_ will endure long after most people have forgotten White's fling with old-timey music.  I may be wrong, as oft times before, but, hey, "IMHO."

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## catmandu2

> Sometimes I think our basic inferiority complexes show through in cases like this.
> 
> 
> Fine.  Glad he's discovered something that most of us have known for much longer...


Who cares who knew about it "first"?


Glad you mentioned Bonnie and Clyde--I'd forgotten that that movie was the other thing that made me learn Scruggs-style banjo...

BTW, I'm also interested in Gillian Welch--who is of course far more traditional and less experimental in her approach.  I learned some of her songs, which are beautiful, and acquired a CD or two.  I was really into her and David for a piece (our BG band does a tune or two of theirs).  But I confess, I'm rather bored by the music, lately.  I'm probably a bit more like JW--need a little more energy more of the time..

I also do a Dead Weather tune to accompany bellydancers.  You know, bellydancing is an old, old form.

I like a lot of different things, and I can usually find value in diverse forms.  I don't expect that everything appeals to everyone--especially in matters "new."

Hey, I respect your "IMHO"  :Grin: ...but I do believe that, while Gillian and David are revered in old-time/trad circles, JW will have far, far more impact on music and culture, overall.  I believe that JW's contribution to old-time/roots/trad/whatever will far exceed GW/DR's inlfuence in popularizing (I hate that word...at least, it's connotations) the music, as GW and DR are preaching to the choir.

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## catmandu2

I don't expect this to appeal to you guys, but the bellydancers wanted me to learn this (albeit, we didn't use mandolins on this, but upright, bouzouki and arabic percussion).  I have since come to thoroughly enjoy it on many levels (but then I'm a drummer, and I also enjoy David Lynch films).  Really, I enjoy accompanying dancers, no matter the genre: salsa, belly, contra...it's a (the) fundamental function of music (and the old-time idiom, of course).  So, whatever gets the dancers moving can float my boat...even hip-hop.  (Caution, it's a little weird, but if you hate the music, mute it and enjoy the movement):

(Caution, caution: "weird" stuff is becoming more mainstream than you would probably care to acknowledge; remember when Radiohead....or REM was "alternative"?   :Wink: ):




Granted, it's not old-time/roots/whatever (not for 50 years, at least, when hip-hop/industrial/techno/ club becomes part of the ouvre), but artistically, it has value, IMO.  FWIW, it took me a while to figure out how to enjoy the Clash, no wave, noise, serialism, atonalism, microtonalism, George Formby, R Crumb, Conlon Nancorrow, Harry Partch, John Cage, and country music.  But I digress...

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## Don Julin

That's what I'm talking about! I can't find one thing wrong with this.

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## catmandu2

> That's what I'm talking about! I can't find one thing wrong with this.


Ha...it took me a couple of listens to derive pleasure (I'm not generally hip-hop/jungle-disposed), and I have a lot of incentive to process this.  But, it is pretty cool.

Steve Tibbets said: "look, who would you rather listen to...Earl Klugh or Motorhead?"

Confession: I used to listen to Earl Klugh and even played some of his music on guitar.  But 30 years later, I'd prefer Motorhead, generally..  :Wink:

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## catmandu2

I just decided to click on some JW...I've only seen a couple of things...that one-string thing, that one where he's doing like a BG-homage..and that White House thing on PBS (where he looked clearly uncomfortable, IMO).  Here's the first one I clicked on (since I was familiar with the project through the article in the defunct "No Depression" magazine).

What bothers you guys so much about this?   It sounds like rockin' early country to me (more interesting than the new Robert Plant offering).  But then, I kind of like this brand of roots/Americana/rock/early country.  I loved early Zep, early Stones, FBB, NRoPS, Uncle Tupelo...  I'll be playing stuff that sounds a lot like this tonight--and I can tell you that it's popular in the clubs.  Our singer has that Loretta/Dolly thing, which softens some of the edginess of raw music.

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## allenhopkins

Straw man getting demolished?  It doesn't *bother* me at all; I just don't find it as significant as six pages of thread would imply.  I'm perfectly fine with White, or anyone else for that matter, playing old-time, bluegrass, Celtic, Persian, zydeco, baroque, or any other kind of music -- doing it in a movie, onstage, on TV or YouTube -- making money at it, attracting audience and fans, selling CD's or iTunes downloads, whatever.

Just seems to me a footnote in a centuries-old saga of Euro-Afro-American traditional music.  It will happen whether I care to listen to it, or not, and the music will continue whether White or anyone else gets interested in it, or doesn't.  White's "fling," as I put it, with traditional music, may turn into his lifelong obsession; the White Stripes may turn into Jack & the New Skillet Lickers.  Doubt it, but stranger things have happened; check out Elvis Costello lately?

I just think we're losing perspective and a sense of proportion regarding what has, so far, been a brief dalliance by a Hollywood star with old-timey music.  As I said, just "IMHO."

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## catmandu2

> Straw man getting demolished?  It doesn't *bother* me at all; I just don't find it as significant as six pages of thread would imply.  I'm perfectly fine with White, or anyone else for that matter, playing old-time, bluegrass, Celtic, Persian, zydeco, baroque, or any other kind of music -- doing it in a movie, onstage, on TV or YouTube -- making money at it, attracting audience and fans, selling CD's or iTunes downloads, whatever.
> 
> Just seems to me a footnote in a centuries-old saga of Euro-Afro-American traditional music.  It will happen whether I care to listen to it, or not, and the music will continue whether White or anyone else gets interested in it, or doesn't.  White's "fling," as I put it, with traditional music, may turn into his lifelong obsession; the White Stripes may turn into Jack & the New Skillet Lickers.  Doubt it, but stranger things have happened; check out Elvis Costello lately?
> 
> I just think we're losing perspective and a sense of proportion regarding what has, so far, been a brief dalliance by a Hollywood star with old-timey music.  As I said, just "IMHO."


Hmm...sorry, I guess I misinterpreted your previous remarks and perhaps lumped them with Jeff, journeybear, et al.  Would it be fairer to say, annoyed?--your opening remark in post #139 seems so.  Anyway, still, I believe that JW may possess more OT/roots cred than his role merely as an actor.  But I'm not particularly well informed, as I've only seen half a dozen youtube songs.  I like some of the things I've heard, and respect him for his ethic of experimentation and diversity of approach.  I play all kinds of different music--I can't decide which I like best, because I like them all.  Maybe JW's approach resonates more with me in this regard.

Regarding six pages of stuff, I think I came in late, and really have only been concerned on this 6th page...and largely because it has given me cause to pause and think.  So, I can't really address your concern of it being a disproportionate response.

But my general observation is: White is participating in a style of music and performance currently en vogue.  Considering the power of media--these days--this has tremendous impact on the music, and those who will consequently hear it because of White's significant contribution.  I'm not sure that I understand your position that: who cares if White plays this or that music? (or at least, certainly not deserving of 6 pages); Isn't there more interest in our music and its proponents--be they real or imagined--to deserve a discussion of their range of influence, impact and relevance on music and culture?  IME, rock and its subsequent derivations (punk, hip-hop, etc.) have already impacted music and culture, profoundly.  They will continue, as new forms will emerge, flourish, and be assimilated--it's evolution.  Our beloved traditions, too, will be affected, like it or not.  So what if White's interest in this idiom is merely a casual dalliance?  The media that he is disposed to has rather large implications.  Elvis took over the world.  Elvis had a good voice, lips, and hips.  He was the chosen image...he was no great shakes as an actor, rocker, or karate practitioner.  Since JW is an actor, maybe he too will take over the world, and then we'll have a king who at least _poses_ with a mandolin and calls it OT.  I rather enjoy experimentation--not all experimentation is successful, of course, and we discuss.  This is some of the value of the experiment.  I can understand the position that traditional forms must breathe and grow to remain vital.  IMO, White's contribtution is a significant voice to sustain the vitality of roots/OT/whatever music.  His brand of OT/roots may not be everyone's cup of tea of course.  I think our difference of view, here, is that where you see an insignificant, superficial dalliance, I see bold musical experimentation with meaningful implications, by accident, dalliance, or intention.

Ah well..

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## mando.player

For the record Jack White only has 4 movie credits (most in 2003 and where bit parts).  So I think that makes him primarily a musician.  Referring to him as an actor is a bit of stretch.  I'm sure Wikipedia has a ton of bio info on Jack, but it's the typical garage band from <insert city>.  Seeing how he worked in a furniture repair shop before making it, that one-string clip didn't surprise me at all. From what I can tell Jack has a firm understanding of American Roots music.  Is he a musicologist?  No, but he probably knows a whole lot more than most rock or pop stars.

The Loretta Lynn CD he produced is one of my favorites.  It's one of those things that you either love or hate.  Like Rick Ruben and Johnny Cash, I love that kind of stuff.  Speaking of young/old mash ups, I need to pick up the new Mavis Staples CD Jeff Tweedy produced.

----------


## mando.player

Detroit also has a bit of an odd history with country music.  There was a cowpunk band that Jack briefly played drums in called Goober and the Peas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goober_%26_the_Peas

Goober and the Peas front man Dan Miller was Luther Perkins in "Walk the Line" and carries quite a bit of credibility in Roots circles.  So there are some ties back to traditional music that folks may or may not have known existed.

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## JeffD

I think we need to make two important distinctions: 

one is that excluding someone from a category (a category that is dear to us, lets say), is not the same as saying we don't appreciate his music, or perhaps even like it.

secondly, excluding someone from a category is not the same as saying he shouldn't have tried to play music typical of that category.

In my case anyway, neither is true. I don't have to demonstrate or justify the range of musical styles I like, here or anywhere, but sufficient to say I am extremely open to music of all types. I don't call everything I like old time, however. And I think White's contributions in what could be considered OT have been good. Not jaw dropping, but I would certainly worthy. Probably more worthy if I don't look through the genre lense of OT.

With regard to White's musical contributions in other genres, I am not qualified to comment knowledgeably. I don't think you can get to where he is and not have evidenced an amazing amount of talent.

Yea, there is something I look for in OT that goes beyond what I look for in what we generally call music. And I am having trouble putting my fingers on it, but if you want to be judged as an OT musician, thats different (not more, not less) than how I would judge you as a general musician. OT music has to do something for me that is different than what general music has to do. Same with classical, or rock, or any other specific genre. 

One might say when listening to a rock and roll offering from a new musician: "Well, does he rock?" "Well he is a great musician, and listen to all this stuff he is able to do in classical, or in tango, or carribean dance music.." "Well, yea great, but does he rock?" In that discussion everyone would know what I mean. Well, thats kind of what I am getting at with regard to OT.

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## JeffD

I am somewhat embarrassed at how many words it is taking me to get across a point. Language is sometimes pretty klunky.

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## catmandu2

> For the record Jack White only has 4 movie credits (most in 2003 and where bit parts).  So I think that makes him primarily a musician.  Referring to him as an actor is a bit of stretch.


Well, I don't need an examination of Whites' curriculum vitae, or require him to have perfromed for any particular length of time, before I can consider his work "legitimate."  This reminds me of the old school mentality--when your grad school professors require you to suffer through a bunch of meaningless and time-consuming bookwork because, by god, _they_ had to do it!




> It's one of those things that you either love or hate.


As is true of most work that is particularly expressive or evocative.

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## catmandu2

> I think we need to make two important distinctions: 
> 
> one is that excluding someone from a category (a category that is dear to us, lets say), is not the same as saying we don't appreciate his music, or perhaps even like it.


Well, I think my thinking began at the top of page 6, while responding to Larry's post:




> He is a master of three mandolin chords?
> I don't agree with the hype around jack White. I don't see the talent, integrity, musicality, etc. I only see image, misdirection, and self-promotion.

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## catmandu2

My final thought is:

I can understand that some of us are challenged by this music--especially encroaching into our beloved traditional music.  There is, in White's music, a strong element of punk--a particularly strong form of rock, which itself was an expression intended to challenge and even overthrow the status quo.  It may seem an odd mix: traditional forms with that which would subvert the dominant paradigm.  This is precisely why this is a particularly volatile and evocative mixture, and is precisely what makes much art interesting--the juxtaposition of ostensibly dissonant elements.  It is going to be challenging.  But for me, I like my art particularly bold and expressive.

Perhaps this discussion is not qualitatively much different from the iconolators versus the iconoclasts.

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## JeffD

> I can understand that some of us are challenged by this music--


Can you understand that some of us are not particularly interested in his music, (except for that blacktop F4 perhaps), but do become interested when he gets confused with an old timey musician.   :Smile: 




> It is going to be challenging.  But for me, I like my art particularly bold and expressive.


Let me ask you, in your opinion. Sure he is an example of what you would consider bold and expressive. Is he a good example? Is he a particularly brilliant example, in your view? Is being bold and expressive enough? 




> Perhaps this discussion is not qualitatively much different from the iconolators versus the iconoclasts.


  :Smile: 

No, because that would imply, wouldn't it, that we (I) feel threatened, either that the category "OT" doesn't exist, or that anyone can be thought an OT musician by playing a good tune or two (with a killer mandolin).

And the truth is that Jack White doesn't blur the boundaries of OT music, nor does he threaten OT music. He's just an entertainer who has played a good tune or two in a genre I love.

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## Ed Goist

I just did some _'advanced searches'_ of this sub-forum...Interesting results:

Replies to this thread - *153 replies* (not counting this post)

Longest Threads in this sub-forum titled with other artists' names:
Uncle Earl - *27 replies*
John Hartford - *12 replies*
Mike Compton - *12 replies*
Tommy Jarrell - *12 replies*
Norman Blake -* 6 replies*
Tim O'Brien - *No Threads found*
Dirk Powell - *No Threads found*

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## catmandu2

> I just did some _'advanced searches'_ of this sub-forum...Interesting results:
> 
> Replies to this thread - *153 replies* (not counting this post)
> 
> Longest Threads in this sub-forum titled with other artists' names:
> Uncle Earl - *27 replies*
> John Hartford - *12 replies*
> Mike Compton - *12 replies*
> Tommy Jarrell - *12 replies*
> ...


Hmm...don't these people posting all these replies understand that White is merely a huckster, an actor...a simple entertainer who happened to play (by shear luck, or sham, I guess...for he has no credibility) a good tune or two in our sacred genre?  Why are they wasting their time with this uppity _new_ music?  Why all the hubbub over this poseur who clearly will be yesterday's news...any day now...

Fortunately, we have folks like Jeff to tell us what is "truth" and what is not, in all of this.  :Wink: 




> And the truth is that Jack White doesn't blur the boundaries of OT music, nor does he threaten OT music. He's just an entertainer who has played a good tune or two in a genre I love.

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## JEStanek

I like Jack White and I like Old Time Music.  Old Time music was here before Jack White, and will be here after Jack White, and all of us no doubt.  Old Time doesn't need a grand defense from different people playing it.  Nor do we need a winner (or whiner).  Lets all have a drink and a tune and remember _we_ make the music too.

Jamie

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## JeffD

> Replies to this thread - *153 replies* (not counting this post)


A lot more people talk about the over loud sousaphone that wanders into the bluegrass festival, than talk about yet another lightning fast banjo player.

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## catmandu2

I could understand that: an overly loud sousaphone would probably be far more interesting to me than another de rigeuer lightning fast banjo player..  :Sleepy: 

An overly loud sousaphone that can generate interest over six years (and six cafe pages) must be interesting to more than me  :Wink:  ... even if by accident (or sham).

(besides, maybe the sousaphone isn't actually over loud, but just right..  :Wink:

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## JeffD

> Fortunately, we have folks like Jeff to tell us what is "truth" and what is not, in all of this.


You think the boundaries of OT music are blurred now that JW has played a good tune or two? People everywhere (anywhere?) are now re-thinking the possibilities of OT music now that JW has entered the genre?

I don't know that they are even doing that in rock and roll. I could be wrong. I don't follow rock.

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## catmandu2

Jeff, in so-called "postmodern" society (especially), boundaries are being blurred everywhere, everyday.  When I was in art school in 2000, the current trend was_ post-style_ -- the next step off from postmodernism.  This is neither "truth," nor prevarication, it is merely an academic critical perspective on art and aesthetics.

Rock is one of the most broad and nebulous terms to use in music.  There was rock'n roll (which of coyrse derived from country, rockabilly, memphis soul, etc.., but after the 50s, rock became whatever and practically anything that didn't seem to fit easily in other well-trodden categories.  Today, "ethnic" music of all sorts has permeated the music.  But this is why we follow trends and styles--so we can communicate about this stuff.  Because the "rock" idiom is so eclectic, it's helpful to break it down: heavy, hard, soft, AOR, top-40, pop, acoustic, electric, jazz, country, acid, space, metal, disco, punk, techno, new wave, no wave, industrial, noise, hip-hop, club, jungle...and whatever the kids are calling it _these days_...  :Wink: 

My argument in post #153 is one of the most basic observations.  When "rock" influences infiltrate a genre--particularly one where the last vestiges of traditionalism hold strong--there is unrest among its devotees.  And understanbaly so--especially since rock, these days, can be anything from ethnic to noise (and usually is, since punk--one of the most influential styles introduced--comprises a lot of noise).  It's going to sound harsh, dissonant, weird, and will make some folks very uncomfortable.  This is not a criticism of you, Jeff, but merely a sociologic observation.  I could be wrong..  :Wink:

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## JeffD

I grant you that boundaries have been fuzzy and moving for years. I am not sure "postmodern" has anything to do with it, but neither is the real point.

The point is that, in my estimation, JW is not an interesting or innovative enough musician, at least in his forays into OT, to be the instigator of boundary movement.

When I think of a musician that have made audiences expand their definition of the genre, and/or question the lines and boarders, I think of Bill Monroe, I think of a Chris Thile, or in other genres I think of Steeleye Span or Malicorne who blurred the distinction between folk and rock, Miles Davis and Thelonious Monk, pushing what was possible in jazz, Aaron Copeland and Gunther Shuller blurring classical and jazz, and others, so many others famous and not so famous..  well you know what I mean.

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## JeffD

> that can generate interest over six years (and six cafe pages) must be interesting to more than me


As you well know, being able to get the cafe to discuss something for over six years and six pages is hardly a feat, and not by  itself a recommendation.

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## woodwizard

> As you well know, being able to get the cafe to discuss something for over six years and six pages is hardly a feat, and not by  itself a recommendation.


That is so true Jeff  :Smile:  ... back to Mr. White... I'm sticking to real OT, but that's just me.

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## catmandu2

> I grant you that boundaries have been fuzzy and moving for years. I am not sure "postmodern" has anything to do with it, but neither is the real point.
> 
> The point is that, in my estimation, JW is not an interesting or innovative enough musician, at least in his forays into OT, to be the instigator of boundary movement.
> 
> When I think of a musician that have made audiences expand their definition of the genre, and/or question the lines and boarders, I think of Bill Monroe, I think of a Chris Thile, or in other genres I think of Steeleye Span or Malicorne who blurred the distinction between folk and rock, Miles Davis and Thelonious Monk, pushing what was possible in jazz, Aaron Copeland and Gunther Shuller blurring classical and jazz, and others, so many others famous and not so famous..  well you know what I mean.



I think one of the influences of postmodernism on music is the lack of a referential medium--no wave, Cage's aleatory experimentalism, dada, atonalism...everything that went before bear upon the sensibilities and are at the disposal of the creative artist.  The palette is vast, and broadening all the time.  That an artist chooses to execute a process where the product is recognizable, to us, is a tip of the iceburg in the larger process of the evolution of the form.

It's like verga--many artists are in the clouds working in media and rendering forms probably not recognizable to us or particularly disposed to classification.  It's always been the way of the so-called avant garde.  Pushing at boundaries, experimentalism.  Every rain drop that reaches us, has an impact, one way another, like it or not, to greater or lesser degree.  Considering White's wide range and output, he's bound to have significant impact, and probably already has.  You don't have to like it, but it's changing.  (Is it me, or is this sounding like "that ain't no part a nuthin"... my general feeling on that is, yes, newgrass is a type of bluegrass  :Wink: )

Remember how people reacted when Miles went jazz-rock?  :Mad:

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## Larry S Sherman

> The point is that, in my estimation, JW is not an interesting or innovative enough musician, at least in his forays into OT, to be the instigator of boundary movement.
> 
> When I think of a musician that have made audiences expand their definition of the genre, and/or question the lines and boarders, I think of Bill Monroe, I think of a Chris Thile, or in other genres I think of Steeleye Span or Malicorne who blurred the distinction between folk and rock, Miles Davis and Thelonious Monk, pushing what was possible in jazz, Aaron Copeland and Gunther Shuller blurring classical and jazz, and others, so many others famous and not so famous..  well you know what I mean.


I absolutely agree with this statement, but I would expand it beyond Old Time music to music in general.




> I can understand that some of us are challenged by this music--especially encroaching into our beloved traditional music.  There is, in White's music, a strong element of punk--a particularly strong form of rock, which itself was an expression intended to challenge and even overthrow the status quo.


I understand your sentiment here, but don't agree with Jack White being representative of a challenging genre of music, especially punk. Black Flag and Minor Threat were challenging. I'm fully accepting of any quality experimental music, even Throbbing Gristle has its' moments. 

I cannot conceive of being "challenged" by the White Stripes. They are musically are more like bubble-gum rockabilly. It's not that my tastes are tied to a preconception of what is allowed in my favorite sacred cow musical genre.

I wish him the best, but let's not hold him up as an innovator, mandolin master, standard bearer of Old Time, etc. He's a guy that wants us to look at him.



Larry

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## catmandu2

> let's not hold him up as an innovator, mandolin master, standard bearer of Old Time, etc. He's a guy that wants us to look at him.


Larry, what do you find unappealing there?  The white belt? 

I don't disagree with any of that, except that White is of course contributing to an expansion of the form (so-called OT), which is a type of innovation.  That he has done so is why we are discussing it: he has rendered a particular form of music (which likely falls under this category--see "No Depression," et al.) that you guys don't like, or does not appeal to you.  This means that there is some aspect of his music (presumably, we are still also discussing his music here) that is sufficiently recognizable and/or unique to warrant particular consideration and mention here--for "better or worse."  Ergo, he has made a recognizable contribution to expanding the form...like it or not.  I don't begrudge him that he can make a lot of money doing it.  You probably have heard much more of White's music than have I.  But I would say: the lessons of "punk" are not always expressed in overt punk expressions, and, White's actual musical activity may even be the least of his total influence (a point which perhaps I'm not being clear in explaining).

(Psst...Elvis was pretty cheesey too, in his day  :Wink:  )




Yesterday's "rebel without a cause" is today's post-punk, androgynous, digital-age, techno man...having assimilated David Bowie, Michael Jackson, the artist formerly known as (Prince), Bob Dylan, and Marshall McLuhan.  His style may not appeal to you (or me), but, I don't necessarily discredit one aspect of a person's ability based on their appearance, style preference, or earning potential.

I hope we don't have to argue: "Jack White is no Elvis!"  The point is broader.

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## catmandu2

> As you well know, being able to get the cafe to discuss something for over six years and six pages is hardly a feat, and not by  itself a recommendation.


I was being_ somewhat_ facetious, hence the  :Wink:  (wink, wink, no what I mean? eh? eh?).

(And...I really _probably_ wouldn't want to listen to a lot of overly loud sousaphone...unless of course it was really well done).  Ugh, I'm going back to the "hell flights with carp" thread.

I take that back--I'm enjoying this discussion.  I was up late last night and haven't had my coffee yet.

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## JeffD

I am enjoying the conversation, and I think it has some merit actually. I get frustrated a bit, because I feel like I am stumbling a bit in my words, and sometimes in your response I feel I may have missed the mark entirely.

I am all for innovation, pushing of envelopes, bending of genre distinctions. I like the innovators. Many of us do.

The crux of the comment is not our taste for innovation and challenging music. Its best summed up by Larry 


> let's not hold him up as an innovator, mandolin master, standard bearer of Old Time, etc. He's a guy that wants us to look at him.


And that doesn't mean we don't like him or that we do, its that his music is not of the calibre to do all of the things you (and many of us, myself included) appreciate in a daring innovative music.

There are musicians that make music with which I am not comfortable. Some of what Chris Thile does is very hard for me to appreciate. But I acknowledge him as a genius, and that what he does and is trying to do is worth listening to. 

I cannot make that acknowledgement for JW, especially within OT, and for the stuff I have bumped around listening too in the last little while. Larry, you nailed it.

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## JeffD

> Yesterday's "rebel without a cause" is today's post-punk, androgynous, digital-age, techno man...having assimilated David Bowie, Michael Jackson, the artist formerly known as (Prince), Bob Dylan, and Marshall McLuhan.  His style may not appeal to you (or me), but, I don't necessarily discredit one aspect of a person's ability based on their appearance, style preference, or earning potential..


I quite agree. Every age has its innovators, and someitmes it takes some perspective to see an innovator for who he is. But every age also has its loud mouthes, posers, wannabees, lazy non-conformists who innovate because they don't want to take the traditions handed to them seriously, semi-adepts who look good within a narrow range.

All performances that are different, surprising, and non-conforming are not interesting, and all that is interesting is not necessarily of sustainable or significant interest, or even necessarily good.

And lastly, if one goes to a bluegrass festival with a sousaphone because one is opening up possibilities of lower brass in the genre, and can do so in an interesting way that preserves and respects while expanding and attempting to enhance the existing genre - I am all for it. If one brings a sousaphone to a bluegrass festival because he doesn't know better, or because its all he can play and he is too lazy to learn guitar banjo mandolin fiddle or what ever, or because he wants to express disdain for the pre-existing traditions - well I don't think it reflects badly on me or indicates a small mind or overly sensitive temperment to not embrace him.

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## catmandu2

> Every age has its innovators, and someitmes it takes some perspective to see an innovator for who he is. But every age also has its loud mouthes, posers, wannabees, lazy non-conformists who innovate because they don't want to take the traditions handed to them seriously, semi-adepts who look good within a narrow range.


So then, are you perhaps conceding my point that White is an innovator in some respect?  Whether his contribution is by chance, luck, accident or intention, this is quite beside the (my) point.





> All performances that are different, surprising, and non-conforming are not interesting, and all that is interesting is not necessarily of sustainable or significant interest, or even necessarily good.


Of course.

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## catmandu2

> I am enjoying the conversation, and I think it has some merit actually. I get frustrated a bit, because I feel like I am stumbling a bit in my words, and sometimes in your response I feel I may have missed the mark entirely.
> 
> I am all for innovation, pushing of envelopes, bending of genre distinctions. I like the innovators. Many of us do.
> 
> The crux of the comment is not our taste for innovation and challenging music. Its best summed up by Larry 
> 
> And that doesn't mean we don't like him or that we do, its that his music is not of the calibre to do all of the things you (and many of us, myself included) appreciate in a daring innovative music.
> 
> There are musicians that make music with which I am not comfortable. Some of what Chris Thile does is very hard for me to appreciate. But I acknowledge him as a genius, and that what he does and is trying to do is worth listening to. 
> ...


I, too, feel as though many of my words have been in vain, with all due respect.  I've spent the better part of two cafe pages attempting to articulate aspects that really don't concern particular stylistc "preferences"--this is an incidental point.

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## Ed Goist

Very interesting article discovered while Googling _Jack White Old-time music_:

Whistling Past the Graveyard: The New Stars of Old Time Music
by Jason Schneider

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## JeffD

> Old Time doesn't need a grand defense from different people playing it.  ...  Lets all have a drink and a tune and remember _we_ make the music too.


Jamie you have nailed a couple of things here. Number one is OT doesn't need me to defend or explain it. If it ain't obvious, it ain't. And secondly, in some genres we really do make the music. There is something about that fact alone that makes a huge difference for me.

Regarding having a drink, well, gentlemen, its time.

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## journeybear

I am perplexed by people referring to Jack White as an actor.  :Confused:  He is a musician who has done a little acting, not the other way around. He has had bit parts in a few movies, and his total screen time in _all_ those appearances is surely a fraction of that in "It Might Get Loud," a documentary - about musicians.

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## catmandu2

> Very interesting article discovered while Googling _Jack White Old-time music_:
> 
> Whistling Past the Graveyard: The New Stars of Old Time Music
> by Jason Schneider


Thanks for that, Ed.  Van Vliet, Albert Ayler and Fahey are among my very favorites--I'm going to have to investigate Charlie Feathers (notice that the article references TAFKA Prince on page 4...another influential character with multimedia wherewithal, good chops, and ostensibly _questionable_ stylistic sensibilities... :Wink:  ).  The last paragraph cites Boggs' version of Pretty Polly--also one of my favorites and usually one of the first tunes and styles I play/sing when I pick up a banjo..   

I can empathize with Blackwood--I've experienced similar consternation over my fetish:

"The recent Blind Joe Reynolds record that surfaced in a flea market just pissed me off something fierce. I've probably ignored that flea market, passed it right by. Now I'm wracked with guilt and if I had a second to spare, I'd stop. I swear!"

I'm not a 78 or even vinyl collector--and thankful for it: I was an avid jazz CD collector for years, and 2.5 - 3K CDs are burdensome enough...even as convenient as CD format is.  I spent as much or more time with my nose in used CD bins as in my college textbooks.  Even CDs, for me, "the need to dig will never go away."  I've sometimes felt like that twitchy older fellow peddling music out of his trunk.  But I've reconciled that with my plan to leave my library of music to my kids.  At least, that's my plan...I hope by then they'll have developed a taste for avant garde jazz and art music  :Smile: .. (so far, not so much).

FWIW, I happen to agree with Schneider: that White is not merely--an actor and rocker who got cast as a Civil War-era musician in a movie, (whose) old-timey creds pretty much stop there--but whose musical work is interesting, evocative, and warrants being referenced in an article about _legitimate_ OT music...(and even the cafe OT forum  :Wink: ).

Okay Jeff, so it's not the iconlators vs the iconoclasts.  How about the new thing vs the moldy figs?

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## journeybear

Pretty sure I just heard The White Stripes being used as the musical part of a spot touting the History Channel show, "American Pickers." Does that make them more mainstream than previously thought?  :Confused: 

BTW, this show is not - I repeat, NOT - about our kind of pickers. This is about two guys who go picking through junk to find things of value. Somehow I haven't managed to find time to watch this yet.  :Disbelief:

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## catmandu2

The first assignment in my sculpture 101 course was to assemble a "work of art" from found objects.  Junk, refuse, and recycled materials yards are the best places to find things of value for that process.  I also found my first visit to the Larimer Co., CO dump one weekend afternoon fascinating, surreal, perplexing, disturbing, and edifying, at once.  Recommended.

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## allenhopkins

> BTW, this show is not - I repeat, NOT - about our kind of pickers. This is about two guys who go picking through junk to find things of value. Somehow I haven't managed to find time to watch this yet.


It's fun; you'd probably enjoy it.  I love to juxtapose it with the current "reality" shows about the horrors of hoarding.  These shows go to incredibly cluttered and unsanitary homes and try to clean them out with a combination of psychotherapy and massed cleaning crews.  The "American Pickers" go to similar homes and treat them like gold mines, paying good money for rusted relics which they assert can be sold for several times the purchase price.  I'd like to see an _American Pickers_ meets _Hoarders_ marathon special, where the clean-up crews race the "pickers" for the "valuable" junk, and the neurotic hoarder gets a huge cash infusion, enabling him/her to pay his shrink bills.

Perhaps Jack White could sit on a derelict Barcalounger in the front yard, playing a Gid Tanner riff on a just-discovered Vega cylinder-back, from which the rodent droppings had been carefully wiped, before the "pickers" give the homeowner $250 ("purchased: $250/estimate $850/profit $600").  Or not.

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## catmandu2

> Perhaps Jack White could sit on a derelict Barcalounger in the front yard, playing a Gid Tanner riff on a just-discovered Vega cylinder-back, from which the rodent droppings had been carefully wiped...or not


I like it.  Quaint...and old-timey (or, whatever..)!   :Smile: 

For those who enjoy observing behavior, those shows are sometimes interesting--they can be like the poor/eccentric man's "antiques roadshow."

I understand the hoarding impulse; I am somewhat of a hoarder of CDs (well, a hoarder, actually...I was probably a joarder of guitars and banjos and mandolins and other stuff there for a while, too).  You can usually sense when collecting becomes more of a hoarding impulse when you begin to feel some compunction with it (as well as all the other typical addiction indicators).  From my experience working with persons with mental health issues, I've been in some environments like what you see on that program--it's pretty typical for a lot of folks in this cohort.  Unfortunately, the actual physical clutter is typically a "positive" symptom of larger issues, so the compunction from over-collecting is further down on the list of concerns.  But, Americans are good at collecting/hoarding!

But, on the positive side, I've noticed that many folks who are interested in sculpture often have roomfuls of "stuff."  When I saw photos of Picasso's rooms, I felt better about my own "stuff"--it looked a lot like his.  But my wife still thinks I have too much...of course.

Wasn't there some work or research conducted at one time by some group of sociologists digging through trash?  It's a sure method of gathering data.  I had some friends who lived pretty well (certainly, better than most of the world) on what they "garbage" picked.  Every week, they would gather non-moldy bread from the local bakery dumpster and distribute it around town on bicycle trailers.  Delicious.

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## plunkett5

"BTW, this show is not - I repeat, NOT - about our kind of pickers. This is about two guys who go picking through junk to find things of value. Somehow I haven't managed to find time to watch this yet."

I play mandolin & banjo in a band The Libby Prison Minstrels. We play the music of the American Civil War era. We just taped an episode of American Pickers. They were fun guys and filmed quite a bit of our playing. How much remains on the cutting room floor only time will tell. Look for it in the spring.

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## JeffD

> Look for it in the spring.


Wow, sounds great. Let us know (remind us) when it comes up.

I am interested in Civil War era music. Should start a thread on it.

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## Ed Goist

> Wow, sounds great. Let us know (remind us) when it comes up.
> 
> I am interested in Civil War era music. Should start a thread on it.


I agree all around! Congratulations Mike!
I hope someone in the know will start a Civil War thread in this sub-forum...Isn't _Soldier's Joy_ a Civil War song?
Also, Mike's band has a really nice website: The Libby Prison Minstrels.

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## journeybear

And while we're this far OT, if anyone runs across music from that time period that in any way pertains to New Jersey (mentions, was written by someone from there, etc.), please pass this on to Matt over at the New Jersey Songs thread. He's having a hard time finding such songs from the 1800s.

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## allenhopkins

> ...Isn't _Soldier's Joy_ a Civil War song?


No, it much precedes the 19th Century.  Apparently a 1760 printed Scottish version, hand-written version from Norway 1790's (as _English Dance_), Aird's English collection 1778.  Often called _The King's Head._  There may be Civil War lyrics but the tune's older.

And playing mandolin in a Civil War band is a bit of an anachronism -- not that I haven't done it myself.

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## plunkett5

"And playing mandolin in a Civil War band is a bit of an anachronism -- not that I haven't done it myself." 

Hi Allen- I don't understand why it would be anachronistic. Were there no mandolins in America in the 1860s? 

OTOH, my Gibson A is not period, but I am a player not a re-enactor.  Let me take the chance to say, "Thanks for this site.". I love it

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## JeffD

There is a thread somewhere here about that very thing. And, if I remeber right, no there were not many, if any mandolins in this country in the 1860s. If any, they would be bowlbacks of course, in isolated immigrant communities, of which there weren't many, especially as compared to what would occur in 30 to 40 years.

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## Ed Goist

The Cafe is a remarkable source of information!
I had been told once (at an Old-Time jam, I think) that 'Soldier's Joy' was slang among Civil War soldiers for morphine (as it was often liberally given to wounded soldiers). So, I just Googled "Soldier's Joy"+morphine+civil+war and this was my first hit!
Pretty interesting stuff.

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## allenhopkins

> Hi Allen- I don't understand why it would be anachronistic. Were there no mandolins in America in the 1860s?


I'd never say "no mandolins in America," since there have been mentions of mandolins, mandolin players and teachers, in America since colonial times.  However, most of these mentions have been of musicians emigrating from the Mediterranean countries, and setting up here as somewhat "exotic" purveyors of varieties of classical music.  A mandolin as part of a Civil War string band would be definitely unusual; we've not found any examples of mandolins being played as part of popular or folk music, until well after the Civil War.  The concerts given by the Spanish Students in 1880 are generally considered to be the start of the mandolin's US popularity, and substantial immigration from Mediterranean (and mandolin-rich) countries like Italy didn't occur until around that time.

We don't find published mandolin music, mandolin methods etc. until the late 1880's.  Mandolin clubs and orchestras sprang up in the decade before 1900 (my grandfather was in one in Lockport NY).  But a Civil War string band could well have had a fiddle, very probably a banjo, and quite likely a guitar.  It could also have had a piano, a hammered dulcimer (the "lumberjack piano," much more transportable), a cello, perhaps a bass fiddle, perhaps some variety of wind or free-reed instrument.  A mandolin would have been a most unusual addition.

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## Mandolinista

Don't want to get too off-topic here but would like to share some thoughts  brought about or brought back to mind by reading this excellent and wide-ranging thread.Allen speaking from way outside the old-time tradition but as someone who loves the "found" nature of music in sound tracks. Forgive me for introducing another film but think of "Gangs of New York" and the scene where the Irish immigrants are coming down the gangplank and being recruited straight into the army... I wonder are there any sources for pipers? More on topic now about the Cold Mountain and Jack White thing - I read and greatly admired the novel, enjoyed the film and the music, bought both cd's  was vaguely aware of some of the anachronisms but most of all I was struck by the way the shaped note (Is that the correct terminology?) singing reminded me of Gaelic psalm singing. ps  Now what about that scen in GONY where the black dancer dances to an Irish jig played on a banjo? ; that was a fine piece of imagining I feel. "Oh Brother Where Art Thou" had a lot to do with me releasing my mandolin from its case about five years ago.

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## catmandu2

> ...the shaped note (Is that the correct terminology?) singing reminded me of Gaelic psalm singing. ps  Now what about that scen in GONY where the black dancer dances to an Irish jig played on a banjo?


I'm much less concerned with relative historical accuracy in cinematic drama--_caveat emptor_; the genre comprises "artistic liberties."  But it is cool when there is sufficient interest and/or investment to employ researchers or other experts in production to render scenes like that.  Being at one time vehemently interested in all things OT banjo, that was pretty cool viewing for me--it's rare to find gourd banjer just about anywhere, much less in popular cinema.

I too derived inspiration from the Cold Mountain film.  I'm a big fan of both Tim O'brien and Dirk Powell, so I procured Tim's disc and began playing some of the tunes from that.  Years later, my favorite "fiddle tune" to play is still the medley Mountain Aire/Washington's March/Bonaparte's Retreat from Tim's album.  I didn't know Jack White from Adam when I saw the film, but I remember the itinerant musician characters, and I think he portrayed playing the mandolin in a scene or two?

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## DrEugeneStrickland

Over the past several weeks I have been following this thread concerning pop music singer, guitarist Jack White under the heading provided by the cafe for discussions of all things related to Old Time mandolin.
While I see the impulse to validate this instrument and style by linking it to a famous person who has hit 'critical mass' in our cultural mainstream, I find it sad and disturbing that no discussion has been brought forth concerning the masters of Old Time mandolin who created and recorded on this instrument during the 1920's and 30's for example;
Doc Roberts, Ted Hawkins, Coley Jones, Nap Hayes, R.W Mosley, Howard Armstrong, Ed Freeman... 
I can't help but wonder whether those reading and or contributing to this thread would find discussing the artistic and historical precedents established by these pre-WW2 mandolinists  uninteresting in comparison to ruminating endlessly about a rock singer who at best experimented with a mandolin briefly on a recording or two and appears in a film holding one?

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## catmandu2

> I find it sad and disturbing that no discussion has been brought fourth concerning the masters of Old Time mandolin who created and recorded on this instrument during the 1920's and 30's for example;
> Doc Roberts,Ted Hawkins,Coley Jones,Nap Hayes,R.W Mosley,Howard Armstrong,Ed Freeman...


Why would you be so disturbed by this omission of old masters in a thread titled: "Jack White"?  I would think one way to mitigate your consternation would be to start a thread/discussion in reference to these.

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## DrEugeneStrickland

> Why would you be so disturbed by this omission of old masters in a thread titled: "Jack White"?  I would think one way to mitigate your consternation would be to start a thread/discussion in reference to these.


I have followed the threads on "Old Time" mandolin for 2 years now on the Cafe and based on the overwhelming lack of any discussions  concerning what I consider to be the seminal recordings or the "big bang" of Old Time mandolin playing I have become frankly very pessimistic that anyone here would have any interest in the fundamental's of this style.
I thought since Jack White's name as a million selling rock star and film personality is of such interest this thread may perhaps be the best avenue to catch attention and advance this discussion about 
real Old Time Mandolin music and it's players.

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## catmandu2

> I have followed the threads on "Old Time" mandolin for 2 years now on the Cafe and based on the overwhelming lack of any discussions  concerning what I consider to be the seminal recordings or the "big bang" of Old Time mandolin playing I have become frankly very pessimistic that anyone here would have any interest in the fundamental's of this style.
> I thought since Jack White's name as a million selling rock star and film personality is of such interest this thread may perhaps be the best avenue to catch attention and advance this discussion about 
> real Old Time Mandolin music and it's players.



Oh, I see.  Personally, I have little expertise in this area, and little knowledge of those you've mentioned (except Howard Armstrong, whom was celebrated on TV, of course...he has been discussed in threads on the "General" board).  I would be interested in following a discussion and learning.  I think your tact of inserting it here is a good idea--as it will undoubtedly capture the attention of those with more knowledge than I who have posted on this thread.

Although , personally, I favor the term "traditional" over "real" -- old time.  I think it has much more utility.

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## mandolirius

> I have followed the threads on "Old Time" mandolin for 2 years now on the Cafe and based on the overwhelming lack of any discussions  concerning what I consider to be the seminal recordings or the "big bang" of Old Time mandolin playing I have become frankly very pessimistic that anyone here would have any interest in the fundamental's of this style.
> I thought since Jack White's name as a million selling rock star and film personality is of such interest this thread may perhaps be the best avenue to catch attention and advance this discussion about 
> real Old Time Mandolin music and it's players.


Well, I'd be interested for one. I wish you'd start a thread, maybe seed it with some links and we'd be off and running in no time, I'd predict.

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## catmandu2

FWIW, there is a contingent of knowledgeable folks and frequent discussion of old-time string band music on the banjo hangout.  Although, the threads that I'm generally interested in there are geared toward early jazz.

I would be surprised if there isn't an equivalent contingent here on the cafe.  Whether anyone has a particular wealth of knowledge or information, many of us are interested, of course.  I hope you will share yours with us.

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## DrEugeneStrickland

You have given me confidence catmandu2. I will prepare a detailed discourse on the recorded history of Traditional Old Time Mandolin, its players and their notable recorded output as a unique thread to present on the Cafe this weekend.
I really believe that this Old Stuff is truly the good stuff, if one is willing to dig a little and listen to recordings that most would not consider as "high fidelity".

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## swampy

> You have given me confidence catmandu2. I will prepare a detailed discourse on the recorded history of Traditional Old Time Mandolin, its players and their notable recorded output as a unique thread to present on the Cafe this weekend.
> I really believe that this Old Stuff is truly the good stuff, if one is willing to dig a little and listen to recordings that most would not consider as "high fidelity".


I will be looking forward to reading this one. I'd like to know more about traditional OT mandolin playing.

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## catmandu2

> You have given me confidence catmandu2. I will prepare a detailed discourse on the recorded history of Traditional Old Time Mandolin, its players and their notable recorded output as a unique thread to present on the Cafe this weekend.
> I really believe that this Old Stuff is truly the good stuff, if one is willing to dig a little and listen to recordings that most would not consider as "high fidelity".


Well, this seems like the place for such a discourse!  I'm sure that most of us can get past the relative lack of sonic fidelity--I myself enjoy recordings by Armstrong, Oliver, Ory, Ossman, Morton, and many others.  Indeed, this is "good" music.  We know that early examples of the music are relatively rare, so we can appreciate what exists and in their primitive state.

FWIW, I think you'll find many among us--particularly the younger cohort--who also find Jack White "good," and relevant to this idiom, though "different."  For my money, I enjoy the discourse of ideas--the new and the old, and their convergence--the discussion of why they are interrelated, or dissimilar.  If you don't "represent," Dr., then the young and uninformed--with their new-fangled ideas--will indeed outnumber the traditionalists at a greater pace..  :Wink:

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## mandolirius

> I really believe that this Old Stuff is truly the good stuff, if one is willing to dig a little and listen to recordings that most would not consider as "high fidelity".


It's content over form.....always!   :Grin:

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## JeffD

> I really believe that this Old Stuff is truly the good stuff,.


What ever impressions to the contrary you may have picked up or discrened, let me state it plain: anything and everything you have about the use of the mandolin in old timey music is gigantically welcome and encouraged here in the cafe, and especially here in the OT section. I am glad to share what little I have picked up, and even more to learn and absorb what others can offer.

The irrelevancy of particular performers, or the turf wars over where the boundaries between genres are and what and what isn't "orthodox" to a genre, all this makes for engaging conversation, and so gets its "air time". But real content?  Bring it on!

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## mandolirius

> The irrelevancy of particular performers, or the turf wars over where the boundaries between genres are and what and what isn't "orthodox" to a genre, all this makes for engaging conversation, and so gets its "air time". But real content?  Bring it on!


Indeed!

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## catmandu2

> The irrelevancy of particular performers...


I would say the "relevancy"... (unless maybe you're speaking of TAFKA Prince)  :Wink:

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## JeffD

> I would say the "relevancy"... (unless maybe you're speaking of TAFKA Prince)


No, I was just seeing if you were going to catch that.  :Laughing:   :Wink:

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## catmandu2

I just watched that film "It Might Get Loud"-- which IMO does a very fine job of conveying White's vision and aesthetic.   My opinion about White--his link with tradition and desire to render modern expression in the idiom--is confirmed by this film.  White does a good job emulating and personifying a "modern day" Son House.

Recalling what Larry said--something on the order that a punk aesthetic isn't particularly primary in White's music--makes me assume that he hasn't seen this film.  For those who are challenged by the idea of "rock" and punk (and hip hop, etc.) in cultural expression--and how it relates to "traditional" aesthetic--this film should provide greater perspective.

I wonder if those who view White as clearly outside of an OT/roots idiom have seen the film, and if so, how they missed this?

With the image White conveys in the film--a searching, dedicated artist with cultural sensitivity, respect, and reverence of tradition--it's no wonder that he's meeting with success in a variety of endeavors, roots music being one.  I expect that he will continue to become even more widely influential.




As someone whom the electric guitar defined

----------


## Larry S Sherman

> I just watched that film "It Might Get Loud"-- which IMO does a very fine job of conveying White's vision and aesthetic. Recalling what Larry said--something on the order that a punk aesthetic isn't particularly primary in White's music--makes me assume that he hasn't seen this film.


I did see the film early on. IMO Jack White is to punk what Cheez Whiz is to organic food. I can't even fathom an analogy that can put Son House and Jack White in the same universe.



Larry

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## catmandu2

> I did see the film early on. IMO Jack White is to punk what Cheez Whiz is to organic food. I can't even fathom an analogy that can put Son House and Jack White in the same universe.


Thanks for the response Larry.  I must say, it is quite provocative.

I wonder--if you watched the film again--if you wouldn't have a different opinion.

Of course, we don't _hear_ the same, but it's clear to me that White has modeled his vocal style on House.  In White's own words in the film--his most prolific influence is House, and the "essence" of his work is basically trying to emulate House in a modern vernacular (paraphrasing).

It is also clear to me that White came up from punk (as did most everyone with a rock sensibility since 1980), as White himself states in the film, and that his music is predicated on "punk"--and in fact a good example of a synthesis of blues and punk.

Assuming that you're aware of the content in the film, I presume it's a matter that you don't feel that White's efforts, output, etc. is _authentic_?  I wonder what it is that you feel makes punk music and a punk aesthetic, and blues, authentic?  Or, that you just don't think that White's efforts are convincing.  But again, I would wonder how you would describe stylistic elements of punk and blues forms that you consider an effective treatment, and where this is missing in White's treatment?

I appreciate the ongoing discourse.

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## catmandu2

> "It Might Get Loud"...
> 
> I wonder if those who view White as clearly outside of an OT/roots idiom have seen the film, and if so, how they missed this?


Anyone?  Granted, White is a rocker.  But does White's use of electricity categorically exclude White and those of his ilk from being considered "in the tradition?"

Reiterating from a few pages ago--I'm aware of the concern to keep "OT" music, "pure" (much as the traditionalists see new expressions in bluegrass music as controversial), but as an art form, there _will_ be new trends and stylistic treatments of the elements of the form.  I wonder, for those of you mentioned above, do you see so-called "newgrass" as not within the tradition of bluegrass?

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## Talabardio

I think Lady GaGa would be even more appropriate to discuss as an old-time mandolinist. I thought I saw a photo of her holding an A style, and rumor has it that there is some mandolin buried in "Bad Romance". I think I can hear it...

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## catmandu2

Can you give us an example of a blues or trad form rendering by Lady Gaga, Talabardio?  I clicked up the example you mention, and it doesn't seem relevant at all.

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## Talabardio

> it doesn't seem relevant at all.


Wow, are we really mentioning both relevant and Jack White in regards to old-time mandolin! Too funny! I think the Flight of the Conchords use of the Casio electro-mandolin might be more relevant as well. At least they make me laugh intentionally!!

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## catmandu2

Your argument is not very persuasive.

I'm interested in a discussion of musical elements, forms, styles, and expressions.  As I mentioned, matters of personal preferences have little bearing on this discussion.

Are you able to respond, in a meaningful manner, to the questions I've posed above (#208), Talabardio?

So far, all I've heard from anyone here is that White is inauthentic and has no credibility beyond being an "actor" in a period film.  Evidence has been supplied in the form of musical example and documentation as to why White should be considered not  only relevant but also authentic, and innovative as well, in the category of OT/trad music.  But I haven't heard from anyone as to why these examples are ineffective?

Have you seen these examples?  And, if so, can you tell me where they fail in authenticity, tradition, formalism?

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## DrEugeneStrickland

Sill waiting to hear how Mr. White transfers his link with tradition and desire to render modern expression in the idiom as it translates to Old Time Mandolin playing?
If this were a thread with a topic titled for instance, "The influence of African American Blues on white Rock musicians" we could go on forever citing examples who have obviously heard the Blues and loosely assimilated the attitude of the "Bluesman"into their "style".
The Mandolin as it applies to traditional American music deserves attention.
Those like myself who are interested in playing and learning within this unique corner of the musical universe are not closed to other instruments or idioms. 
Some members of the cafe may by in large feel as if they have finally found a place to focus squarely on a often unexplored topic.
Our cumulative short attention spans may ultimately get the best of us.

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## catmandu2

> Mandolin playing?


Ah, okay.  I was hoping to engage in a discussion of the music, and its broader relevance in modern society, rather than only as it pertains to mandolin.  But I understand your interest, and I will drum up such broader discussion elsewhere.

Thank you for the perspective Professor.  This explains the reticence that I was surprised by.

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## JeffD

> and its broader relevance in modern society, rather than only as it pertains to mandolin. .


Well now.

Old Time music has become relevant enough that Jack White felt it a benefit to his career to insert himself into it. That is a surprising amount of relevance.

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## catmandu2

> Well now.
> 
> Old Time music has become relevant enough that Jack White felt it a benefit to his career to insert himself into it. That is a surprising amount of relevance.


Indeed.  But I'm not surprised by this at all (the conspicuous increasing interest in OT music).  What I find interesting is how it manifests.  Thanks to folks like White, it will continue to evolve.  I'm less a purist of style--interested in relative pedigree--and more an aficionado of music.

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## mando.player

> Well now.
> 
> Old Time music has become relevant enough that Jack White felt it a benefit to his career to insert himself into it. That is a surprising amount of relevance.


I can just see the lightbulb over his head.  "Oldtime that's the ticket. I'll make a fortune and really establish my career."

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## JeffD

> I can just see the lightbulb over his head.  "Oldtime that's the ticket. I'll make a fortune and really establish my career."


I know, it sounds unlikely. Probably was not the music, but the project, or getting to work with someone associated with the project, that he saw as the career move.

But the alternative, that he has taken a genuine musical interest in old time music and its traditions... ummm.... no.

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## catmandu2

> I know, it sounds unlikely. Probably was not the music, but the project, or getting to work with someone associated with the project, that he saw as the career move.
> 
> But the alternative, that he has taken a genuine musical interest in old time music and its traditions... ummm.... no.


Jeff, have you seen the examples I mentioned, or can you respond to the issues I stated in posts #208 and #213?  The reason I ask is because I'm personally interested in having a critical discussion, but I'm not interested in rehashing a discussion that didn't go beyond, "I like this but I don't like that...therefore, it's not _real_ old time," etc.  :Sleepy:

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## JeffD

> Jeff, have you seen the examples I mentioned, or can you respond to the issues I stated in posts #208 and #213?  The reason I ask is because I'm personally interested in having a critical discussion, but I'm not interested in rehashing a discussion that didn't go beyond, "I like this but I don't like that...therefore, it's not _real_ old time," etc.


Sure. I am not as familiar with the history of blues as others, but I do know of Son House, and his sound. 

While there are overlaps, blues and OT are kind of distinct. Sure there is old time blues, and a lot of collectors of old time music albums and such would include old time blues. But blues is not the core of OT. A musical archeologist would find Son House by digging into blues, not by digging into OT. 

It would seem also that Son House as influenced many many musicians, either directly or indirectly. His sound is almost foundational.

My point is that a particular musician being influenced, either directly or indirectly, by Son House, is not an old time cred. I would venture that most of all the many who have been strongly influenced, directly or indirectly, by Son House, would not self identify as players of old time music. Not in so many words, and certainly not when we are talking about the "orthodox" definition of OT.

As to authenticity, it is a very complicated issue, that can be effectively argued in several directions on many levels and in many ways. So I would not want to use an arguement based on authenticity, as the effort would exhaust me.

He played a period musician in a historical movie, he was on a stage with Ricky Skaggs, and he owns and sometimes plays a really great looking mandolin. Thats it? There are many that can claim one or more of these as well that would not self identify as an old timey musician.

In terms of influences at the periphery of genres, I would say that OT may influence his work, I don't know, I don't follow him, but I don't think his work, or participation in OT has influenced OT, either its core or its boundaries, in the slightest.

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## JeffD

Have you seen the video "Why Old Time" that has been circulating around? Whatever definitions and semantics we want to get into, there is nothing in Jack White, (with the exception of the three points - he was in the movie, he played with Ricky, he has a cool mandolin,) that has anything to do with the music portrayed in that video.

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## catmandu2

> While there are overlaps, blues and OT are kind of distinct. Sure there is old time blues, and a lot of collectors of old time music albums and such would include old time blues. But blues is not the core of OT. A musical archeologist would find Son House by digging into blues, not by digging into OT.


Therein lies the problem of this discussion.  I see "OT" as a broader idiom (and quite a bit broader than the interests of most of the mando-centric interests of the folks on this forum, understandably) that has very _much_ to do with "blues."  When we introduce words like "traditional, roots, early country," it gets even broader. 

I guess if we want to continue this discussion in a meaningful way, we should define operational terms.  Maybe I'll get into that, but not today.




> I don't think his work, or participation in OT has influenced OT, either its core or its boundaries, in the slightest.


How ironic: the fact that we're having this discussion is acting on expanding the boundaries, even slightly.   :Wink:

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## JeffD

> I guess if we want to continue this discussion in a meaningful way, we should define operational terms.  Maybe I'll get into that, but not today.


While not a perfect definition, its as close as I can come.

Take a look at "Why Old Time". That, for the most part, is what I mean when I say OT. I personally would add a few things. As would most of us. But....

and I am speculating here, but if we were to query what most of those who frequent this part of the cafe and those who say they play OT music, the overlap in all their descriptions of what is OT would be what is portrayed in that video.  




> that has very much to do with "blues." When we introduce words like "traditional, roots, early country," it gets even broader.


As I say we would all add a little of this or that, and likely not agree on those things, so things do get a little fuzzy at the edges for very interesting reasons. But when I want something to point to when I am referring to this music, as it is today, that video is it.

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## catmandu2

Thanks for that--I had not seen that before (if it's the Horse Archer 2:53" production on youtube).  I love trad, acoustic OT, and I love Mike Seeger especially (studied a lot with his material, so I'm always interested whenever I see him).

Words that I heard used by those interviewed or used as subjects in the film included:

"Organic family of fellow musicians; layer of grit; learned from dad – just different handwriting; simple ways of living - entertainment; grandfather played - tradition to keep alive - (alienation) not otherwise tied to (other) cultural aspects; music of the people - not written down – learning person to person; music about people, not pop culture, common tunes, communion, players play wth heads down, listening, focused..."

So, we can use this vernacular to basically define the genre.  I would offer, that all of these terms could be used to describe some of White's music.  The obvious point of contrast being "pop culture."  But, again, does White's stature outside of music necessarily exclude him from being participant to this music?  If you believe so, i would like to know why that is.

In this film, there were about three seconds of mandolin content--a mandolin appeared on screen briefly three times, but I don't believe I heard any mandolin playing on the soundtrack.  Why then, the obsession with White's relative use of mandolin in characterizing him as OT or NOT-OT, or worthy of consideration on a mandolin forum?

Is Willie McTell's Statesboro Blues not "OT"?

Is this not "old-time"?



Granted it's a blues form, but could it not be bluesy AND old-timey?

How about this?



I wouldn't think of this, for example, as OT, but I would think of it as roots, early country, etc.




I understand the compulsion to put things into boxes.  But I'm often compelled by things which I find aren't always easily categorized.  I like things that challenge me, usually, to think and maybe even see something new or different.  Of course, our mileage varies; folks were upset by be-bop, when Bob Dylan went electric, and Miles went jazz-rock, ad inf.  Time passes, your grandchildren will be listening to "new-OT" or "retro-rock" music by Jack White on the radio, and there will be a group of traditionalists fighting to keep it the "way it is."  It's the natural way of things.  There will always be folks challenging the boundaries, thank heavens, and those who will reject the "new thing."  My "thing," in arguing for consideration of a more permissive viewpoint, is simply that I see all this (White's music, for example) as part of a larger continuum, the interrelation of elements, and new expression of old forms.  That it is different--and that there are those who reject it based upon differences rather than accepting it based upon similarities--is obvious.  I happen to find value in it in the context of what has gone before--what it is derived from--and what it means to say in this context.  To me, this aspect of White's music is obvious, too.  And I love traditional music.  I presume that White also loves it--perhaps even as much as you, Jeff.




> I don't think his work, or participation in OT has influenced OT, either its core or its boundaries, in the slightest.


Well, it seems that you at least accept that White is a participant in the OT genre--more evidence that, by virtue of this discussion, we are playing at and expanding the boundaries of the the OT genre, even slightly.  White's innovative contribution and expansion of the lexicon (whether or not most folks consider it "real" or "authentic" OT music) will help to further the vitality of both "popular" nouveau and traditional OT and roots music (like it or not  :Wink: ).  I play mostly trad OT music, but I listen to challenging music.  It's a big, diverse world.

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## JeffD

> I presume that White also loves it--


Is there any evidence for this. I don't find it in what I have poked at on the net.




> But I'm often compelled by things which I find aren't always easily categorized. I like things that challenge me, usually, to think and maybe even see something new or different. ..... It's the natural way of things. There will always be folks challenging the boundaries, thank heavens, and those who will reject the "new thing." .......My "thing," in arguing for consideration of a more permissive viewpoint, is simply that I see all this as part of a larger continuum, the interrelation of elements, and new expression of old forms.


Well one could hardly argue that you are wrong. But so what. 

I deny the premis that one is lazy and afraid of being challanged, small minded, anti-innovation, or afraid of pushing the boundaries, just because one might want to honor a tradition, and value of handing down carefully what was handed down carefully.

I am not going to be painted as intellectually lazy or small minded, or anit-innovation, or afraid of pushing the envelope just because I refuse to include Jack White in OT music. If it takes this much effort (nine pages of discussion) to justify his inclusion, at the very least we can affirm that his inclusion is not obvious to the casual observer.

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## catmandu2

> I am not going to be painted as intellectually lazy or small minded, or anit-innovation, or afraid of pushing the envelope just because I refuse to include Jack White in OT music.





> ...I don't think his work, or participation in OT has influenced OT, either its core or its boundaries, in the slightest.


This is confusing: which do you believe--that he *is* or *is not* participating in OT music?

But why are you so defensive?  No one has attempted to paint you or anyone else thusly, or insinuated anything in this regard, as far as I'm aware.  I only said that "our mileage varies."  I'm not sure why you became so aroused by this.

At any rate, other than perceiving a personal attack, do you have any response to the questions I mentioned in post #225?




> But so what.


So...I was thinking you wanted to have a discussion about this.  I don't think this is going very well, Jeff.

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## journeybear

I'm not sure this qualifies as a discussion. This seems to have devolved into one person posing a premise which no one else agrees with, and then nitpicking responses. This is more a case of being argumentative than engaging in an argument. If there is a discussion, it seems to have become one about how to have a discussion than anything to do with Jack White at all. Who cares about that?

Speaking of Jack White (there was a discussion about him somewhere), I took it upon myself to scan through "Cold Mountain" last night to see what the hubbub was about, because I couldn't recall his role in the movie. I must say, it's pretty minor, though not insignificant. But he doesn't appear until the 1:33 mark, very briefly, then about ten minutes later, where he and his companions play a bit of "Wayfaring Pilgrim," with him on mandolin. (It does seem a period appropriate instrument, roundback with classical headstock.) About ten minutes later they play a bit of "Sitting On Top Of The World," which may have been anachronistic - I always though Bill Monroe wrote that. Someone better versed in this may clarify that. Two more appearances follow, with a total of about ten minutes screen time altogether. 

I don't see how this qualifies him as an actor, let alone OT musician. If, as was suggested early on in this thread, he landed the role due to a friendship with Renee Zellweger (worth noting their characters end up together at the conclusion), this is more of a cameo than a real acting role. Which is not to say he didn't fit in, because he did. But his mandolin playing in the movie is not remarkable, and does not by itself make him a mandolinist or old-timey musician. Nicolas Cage learned to play for his role in "Captain Corelli's Mandolin" - that doesn't make him a mandolinist. Natalie Portman learned to dance ballet for her role in "Black Swan" - that doesn't make her a ballerina. Learning a performance art for a movie role is motivated by a desire to make the character seem realistic, not to make the actor an expert in the field. Jack White played mandolin well enough to seem authentic in the context of the character he was playing. It doesn't seem fitting and proper to ascribe more to it than that.

The videos that have been offered up here recently seem to be more blues than old-timey. These genres may have similar origins but are distinct, both then and now. I can see Jack White having been influenced by the blues. I don't hear any old timey in his music. Just so I'm clear, this relates to his participation in "It Might Get Loud," not "Cold Mountain." The first is partly about his music; the second is quite irrelevant to his music. And what I've heard of his music seems quite irrelevant to old-timey.

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## catmandu2

> I'm not sure this qualifies as a discussion
> ...
> 
> These genres may have similar origins but are distinct, both then and now. .


I'm sorry that you and Jeff have taken such affront by my "premise."  I had abandoned this discussion, after DrEugenStrickland pointed out that folks only really were interested in discussion concerning mandolin-related subjects.  A week later, Jeff reinivigorated the discussion about White (#216), to which I then responded.  Does Jeff need you to defend him against this "perceived attack" in the guise of a discussion?

Okay, so we see that you believe there is a distinct difference between OT and blues-inflected music.  In the case of White, then, how about the other styles under this forum: Roots, and Early Country?

Aside from the fact that White easily falls under these categories (for those interested in maintaining strict distinctions), my effort has been to discuss where music is and why it's there.  Not sure why this "premise" is so provocative, other than what I have articulated (Tradition v Innovation).  Should we also "pull the plug" on discussion about trad bluegrass v newgrass?--this is certainly provocative to some.  I'm afraid that when we discuss boundaries, people are going to become aroused.  Can't we be mature?

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## JeffD

In the light of the morning I re-read my comments and they do seem to have more of an edge to them than I would have wanted. Blame it on the lack of sleep I suppose.

Of course Jack White participated. I don't think his participation is at issue. Its his contribution.  I liken it to When Bill Clinton sits on with a jazz combo playing his saxaphone. Nobody can deny he was there, but nobody would call him a jazz musician, and nobody would talk about his contribution to jazz. (Well, he contributed his celebrity, but you know what I mean.)

I did come across as if I perceived a personal attack. Didn't I. Hmmmm. Why was I so defensive? Or at least defensive sounding.

The part I was reacting to was: 


> But I'm often compelled by things which I find aren't always easily categorized. I like things that challenge me, usually, to think and maybe even see something new or different


My thinking was that I could not see what this had to do with anything. To assert that so and so is part of such and such, because you perceive such and such as broad enough to include so and so - doesn't seem to move anything forward. And so I couldn't figure why you had said it, except to imply the opposite about me and/or traditionalists. Which seemed to be a bit of an ad hominem attack.

But in the light of day, with adequate coffee, and some personal good news received this morning in my email, I am thinking perhaps I read too much into it.

My apologies if I have rent the fabric of our discussion. I think it is important and valuable, but I should not be so personally involved, especially late at night with inadequate caffein.

----------


## journeybear

_One_ week after Dr. Gene's post Jeff posted something, and things got pretty wacky. But I don't want to qiuibble. Seems to fuel the fire here.




> ... In the case of White, then, how about the other styles under this forum: Roots, and Early Country?
> 
> Aside from the fact that White easily falls under these categories ...


Stating that as a _fact,_ without backing it up with examples, just seems wrongheaded.

I'm no expert on the man or his music, and don't have a lot of interest in discussing either. But you might get more response starting a thread in General rather than a Genre forum.

----------


## catmandu2

> Of course Jack White participated. I don't think his participation is at issue. Its his contribution.


Okay, so, if we are in agreement that White participates in OT, can't we discuss him here? (in this non-discussion  :Wink: ).  You are not particularly compelled by his work.  I am making an effort to illustrate why I think his work has value.

I'm afraid that talking about "new" music is going to be rough-going for some, but I would like to think that this forum could tolerate such a discussion.  I don't know about you, but I have learned a few things here.

----------


## JeffD

Why is it provocative. Now that is interesting too.

What I think is that there is a way that traditional music, of all kinds, feels fragile. To me anyway. I feel something would be lost if the objective bystander were not able to distinguish clearly that what we love is different. So fuzziness at the boundries can feel threatening I suppose. 

I look at what seems to have happened to country music. And we could argue the reasons for eons, but the result is the same, the gradual erosion of the distinction between country music and pop music. Something beautiful, and fragile, seems to have been lost, or perhaps only misplaced. And thinking beyond categories and seeing things as a continuum seems like standing on the sidelines applauding at a funeral.

----------


## catmandu2

> Stating that as a _fact,_ without backing it up with examples, just seems wrongheaded.


I should have said, "_clearly_, White falls under these categories," rather than my cumbersome use of "fact."

Oh, okay, I'll drum up the crude country-rock stuff with Loretta, for example, and then you guys can say, "that's not early country/roots..."   :Sleepy: 

See ya

----------


## JeffD

> Okay, so, if we are in agreement that White participates in OT, can't we discuss him here? (in this non-discussion ).  You are not particularly compelled by his work.  I am making an effort to illustrate why I think his work has value.
> .


Go back to the Bill Clinton analogy, though I admit its a little extreme. Its not that I might not be compelled by his work, his work and what he did as president and does as a post presidential celebrity is not of concern. To discuss Bill's contribution to Jazz you have to focus on his playing of Jazz, and what we find is not a contribution to jazz.

What I think of Jack White's other music of no concern. Whether it is compelling or not. It is irrelevant to OT music. So we look at what he did do, his actual participation, and have to say (I think objectively but who knows), it wasn't a contribution.

----------


## journeybear

> I should have said, "_clearly_, White falls under these categories," rather than my cumbersome use of "fact."
> 
> Oh, okay, I'll drum up the crude country-rock stuff with Loretta, for example, and then you guys can say, "that's not early country/roots..."  
> 
> See ya


No, you should have said "I think" or I believe" - clearly, your assertion is not clear.  :Wink:  And his work with Loretta is closer to dabbling or a one-off project than an indication of his main impetus.




> Does Jeff need you to defend him against this "perceived attack" in the guise of a discussion?


No. And what do you mean by  "perceived attack?" Those are not my words. And editing your post after someone has responded to it is indulging in revisionism and misleading.




> Can't we be mature?


I can. Can you?

----------


## mando.player

> I know, it sounds unlikely. Probably was not the music, but the project, or getting to work with someone associated with the project, that he saw as the career move.
> 
> But the alternative, that he has taken a genuine musical interest in old time music and its traditions... ummm.... no.


By the time Cold Mountain came out, White had already released two monster albums that were well on their way to becoming platinum.  I do think that White had firmly established himself as a successful rock musician by this point.  It's clearly documented through his music and written articles that he has a strong affiliation with the Blues.  It's not too much of a stretch to work backwards though the connections of American music history and end up at OT.  I'm not saying that he's a bonafide OT player and I doubt he would either.  I'm just saying that he's certainly entitled to enjoy the music and play it on the mandolin.

----------


## catmandu2

> Why is it provocative. Now that is interesting too.
> 
> What I think is that there is a way that traditional music, of all kinds, feels fragile. To me anyway. I feel something would be lost if the objective bystander were not able to distinguish clearly that what we love is different. So fuzziness at the boundries can feel threatening I suppose. 
> 
> I look at what seems to have happened to country music. And we could argue the reasons for eons, but the result is the same, the gradual erosion of the distinction between country music and pop music. Something beautiful, and fragile, seems to have been lost, or perhaps only misplaced. And thinking beyond categories and seeing things as a continuum seems like standing on the sidelines applauding at a funeral.


As to your first paragraph, with all due respect, that's what I have been saying.  Thank you for your admission.  It may be awkward to realize, but I think mentioning the white elephant in the room is helpful in a discussion.  I agree with what you say--it is fragile.  And it will be trammeled, messed with, transfigured, permutated...and it is healthy enough to withstand it.  The fact that it is being reworked, reinvented is a good thing--it is recognized as the potent influence on young artists that it is.  Indeed, discussion about it helps us distinguish what it is about _it_ that makes it special.  Trad OT is NOT quite what White is doing, I agree.  Many younger folks will likely fail to apprehend this, so it's helpful to articulate the differences.  But it's not necessary to refuse to recognize any _similarities_ in our haste to preserve the traditional.  Let's befriend it.  (This is one of my points about White: that he is paying homage and honoring OT by working in the genre -- this will not destroy trad OT, I'm sure White does not desire that to occur!  In fact, it will continue to vitalize OT in all its manifestations).

Re your second paragraph, there is still good country music being made.  Concerning a continuum: you see a funeral, I see a birthing.

----------


## catmandu2

> No, you should have said "I think" or I believe" - clearly, your assertion is not clear.  And his work with Loretta is closer to dabbling or a one-off project than an indication of his main impetus.
> 
> 
> 
> No. And what do you mean by  "perceived attack?" Those are not my words. And editing your post after someone has responded to it is indulging in revisionism and misleading.
> 
> 
> 
> I can. Can you?


Journeybear, why must you come to troll?

----------


## catmandu2

> My apologies if I have rent the fabric of our discussion. I think it is important and valuable, but I should not be so personally involved, especially late at night with inadequate caffein.


Jeff, my friend, you are right that my mentioning of my own preferences has little bearing on this discussion, and was a bit non sequitor.  I was on another rant at the time, so that slipped in there I guess.

I just read what I'd said (_I'm often compelled by things which I find aren't always easily categorized. I like things that challenge me, usually, to think and maybe even see something new or different_.)  I believe I was simply trying to state why I was so interested in this discussion.

Thanks for this--I really appreciate that you feel this way.  As I said, I learn from vigorous discussion, and I appreciate your effort to engage.  Your honesty is inspiring.

Re Bill Clinton--I've never heard him play the sax...only seen photos.  I'll have to do some reswearch before I can offer  response.

----------


## journeybear

> ... I'm not saying that he's a bonafide OT player and I doubt he would either.  I'm just saying that he's certainly entitled to enjoy the music and play it on the mandolin.


He certainly is. I would like to hear an example of him doing so. I am merely saying that catmandu2 has not provided any examples to back up his assertion.

cat - I don't believe I am or have been trolling. Funny, I was just thinking of saying the same about you.  :Wink:  A lot of your recent posts here seem to me more argumentative than arguments, as if you have been trying to stir things up just to  - I don't know, I'm guessing, because I don't understand. A lot of your side of the discussion has centered on dismissing _others'_ opinions rather than proving _your_ points. But I am glad to see some evolution of your stance in your last few posts. And hopefully we are all learning through this.

----------


## JEStanek

I would say anyone who plays a particular style of music contributes to it if only by playing it at the moment.  It happened, it was real, and it was heard by others or just the player.  This keeps the genre alive.  How well, that contribution keeps the genre alive, and what the impact of that performance is on the listener to others is a bit more subjective depending upon who you ask.  I heard the Mandrell Sisters Rap once!!!  

I don't see any clear victory line in the current discussion but carry on, so long as we maintain civility.

Jamie

----------


## catmandu2

> But I am glad to see some evolution of your stance in your last few posts. And hopefully we are all learning through this.


Oh my, I'm so glad that I've redeemed myself in your eyes!   :Sleepy: 

But, actually, my stance has been consistent throughout.

----------


## catmandu2

> I don't see any clear victory line in the current discussion but carry on.


But I got Jeff to admit that White is OT!  (just kidding  :Wink: )

----------


## journeybear

What EV er  :Frown:

----------


## AlanN

Why don't you boys settle this once and for all:

Take 2 cheapie mandolins, face off and do the ol' El Kabong! Last one standing wins....or have a beer together.

----------


## catmandu2

> Why don't you boys settle this once and for all:
> 
> Take 2 cheapie mandolins, face off and do the ol' El Kabong! Last one standing wins....or have a beer together.


I believe that physical violence is not permitted among cafe members  :Wink:  (but I'd have to check with Jamie on that one).  But don't get me started on Esteban!

----------


## JeffD

> ....or have a beer together.


I am game. I can't drink beer anymore, but I will have a bourbon. In fact, Cat, Ill buy. 

Jamie, a round for the house for putting up with me. Put it on my tab.

----------


## journeybear

Settle what? It's done. catmandu2 lost the argument but he won't admit it.  :Grin:  

That said, I would be happy to quaff a few with the guy. I expect it would be quite the evening. But I am not going to Montana in January, no way no how! (Ditto for Upstate New York) But he is welcome to come down here, even if right now it is a chilly 60 F.  :Disbelief: 

And whatever else you may think, I like the ambivalent melancholist. Indeed, he is one of my few official Cafe friends. Just drives me a little nuts sometimes, as friends will do.  :Wink: 

Who's Esteban? You mean this guy?

----------


## catmandu2

> I am game. I can't drink beer anymore, but I will have a bourbon. In fact, Cat, Ill buy. 
> 
> Jamie, a round for the house for putting up with me. Put it on my tab.


I'm in!  We'll pick some bluesy OT together...how about some Dock Boggs?



Or, Mr. Holcomb..

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## JeffD

Journeybear, a friend of mine gave me this line. 

He tells me: "Jeff, I would like to agree with you, but then we would both be wrong."

----------


## journeybear

:Laughing:

----------


## mandowilli

Overheard at an Old Time music jam. " You know, Old Time music is a lot better than it sounds."

----------


## JeffD

> Overheard at an Old Time music jam. " You know, Old Time music is a lot better than it sounds."


I have heard that.   :Smile: 

I think that originally came from a Mark Twain quote about Opera.

----------


## Jim MacDaniel

Now that the question of "Jack White, OT or not OT?" has been answered (and the answer is a clear "Yes and No"), what are your thoughts on the age old question "Chris Thile, BG or not BG?"  :Wink:

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## catmandu2

> Now that the question of "Jack White, OT or not OT?" has been answered (and the answer is a clear "Yes and No"), what are your thoughts on the age old question "Chris Thile, BG or not BG?"


Oooh...

----------


## catmandu2

If anyone has an interest in returning to a discussion of music...

In the pursuit of a common language and defining operational terms necessary for critical discourse, it might be useful to use the tree and branch analogy when conceptualizing music categorically.  For example, in studying jazz there is a general theoretical consensus of what elements comprise early jazz--it has its origins (origins being another study entirely) and branches into many diverse stylistic forms.  Much diverse contemporary music that we wouldn't necessarily think of as "jazz" based upon its origins and traditional forms is considered under the "jazz" rubrick--often because it is one of our more flexible models--as it helps us to understand the music.  In a critical analysis of musical form, we use models, elements, history, theory to understand what is expressed.  We may like to think of "old-time" music as somehow separate and too remote from these "academic" concerns to be apprehendable or relevant to such approaches, but that's another conversation.

Like "jazz," I see "old-time/roots" as the taproot, with many subdivided derivations: trad, mountain, urban, contradance, squaredance, cajun, jugband, blues, bluegrass, country, rock, and of course countless more regional and stylistic expressions.  To try to draw definitive delineation between these is, for my money, not particularly useful--unless, of course, one wishes to fuel an argument, for which such compartmentalizing concerning music is particularly efficient (ironic that, on a forum devised to entertain discussion of musical styles, some would call such discourse a NON-discussion, and even call for abolition of such discussion--this, in the words of DrEugeneStrickland, _truly is_ "sad and disturbing," but not surprising).  As I stated some, oh, five pages back--I don't generally see utility in pursuing cold classifications and definitions in musical expression--especially since so much of it is related.  But it is possible to do so.

As newgrass emanated from bluegrass, it assimilated elements from other forms--jazz, for example.  Similarly, "old-time/roots" and its subdivisions are assimilating elements from diverse forms--rock, for example.

I think some of the challenge in finding agreement, consensus--or as Jamie put it, a clear line of victory--in this discussion ensues from the disparate perspective, or metaperspective, we all have here.  Therefore, breaking it down into common elements or using a standard heuristc of critical approaches is useful.

Or, to put it another way: *Roscoe Holcomb didn't think the folks up thar in the city (Seeger, Cohen and those guys) were playing "real" old time music either.*  (lol  :Wink: )

----------


## JEStanek

To introduce another Roots Music element into the Jack White stew here, he produced Wanda Jackson's new album.  As an distinctive female rockabilly voice and a pioneer for female performers in a genre not known for female leads this lends more credence, to me at least, that Jack White has a genuine interest in roots music.  I think he is faithfully following his muse.  If he was in this for the money, producing records for Loretta Lynn and Wanda Jackson are mistakes, he should make another Elephant.

I don't want to debate his performance value but I'm convinced these disparate styles (with many common themes) flow centrally through him.

Jamie

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## journeybear

Furthermore, Wanda Jackson and Jack White are scheduled to appear on Letterman Thursday night. I don't expect there will be a note of old-timey music. But Ms Jackson is a vital old-timer; glad she's still at it.

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## JEStanek

While maybe not in the nit picky Cafe sense, the musical stuff Jack White has shown an interest in fits into the American Roots Music bin.  Blues, Old Time, Rockabilly, Country and Western.  If it inspires anyone to pick up an instrument and find their own voice, I'm all for it.

Jamie

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## journeybear

Roots? Definitely. Old-timey? Gentlemen, stretch your definitions!  :Whistling: 

Seriously, I hope he can revitalize Wanda's career at least as much as he did Loretta's, however briefly. Both were seminal figures in their respective fields, largely marginalized by current country culture.

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## catmandu2

> Roots? Definitely.


  We're getting there..





> If it inspires anyone to pick up an instrument and find their own voice, I'm all for it.


Indeed.  No doubt he has inspired many more than any of us.

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## JEStanek

I guess by Roots music I'm using the term as used on the NPR show American Routes.  Or as seen in the good Documentary (with no Jack White content) American Roots Music.  Most people think anything other than top 40 Pop/Hip Hop/Country Pop is just old peoples music.  Certainly the folks with deeper knowledge of the different styles may protest, but everyone starts somewhere.

Jamie

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## DrEugeneStrickland

I have silently continued to read the back and fourth concerning this Rock musician Jack White.
I have spent the last several weeks actually studying and listening to his music trying to comprehend why someone would make  any sonic connection between his music and; Country Blues,Electric Blues,Early Country,Bluegrass,Old Time or Cajun... I have tried to stretch my definitions as far as I possibly can to try to include him and his music along side,Doc Boggs,Roscoe Holcombe,Doc Roberts,Scotdale Stringband,Yank Rachel,Bill Monroe,Dennis McGee and can not for the life of me find similarity or influence of any of these artists from a aural perspective.
I must then assume that this is a typical discourse that goes along with an insecurity some musicians feel when in the company of those who have rejected Rock and Pop music in favor of the folk styles mentioned above.
To grasp any of the wonderful American styles ultimately doesn't require that one have an all encompassing view of the bigger picture of current or past commercial musics made and marketed for mass consumption.
I myself spend hours learning from old recordings of the masters of American Folk music.
As I focused on White and his music I remembered how refreshing it was years ago to turn away from bombastic and atonal sounds created by groups like Black Sabbath(a group Mr White seems to imitate frequently) and Led Zeppelin in the early 70's and go back to listening  to Willie Dixon,Howlin Wolf,Muddy Waters Fred Mcdowell and  Son House who did not need extreme volume,trendy clothing and "punk" arrogance to make music that will last forever,it is the extreme gimmickry of his presentation that makes it difficult for me to place him next to the masters of American Folk and Blues... I am sure the same was said for Mick Jagger many years ago.
As the Rolling Stones moved away from playing the Electric Blues heard on early albums they used gimmickry and showmanship to reach a critical mass and influence youth culture,leaving the roots of American music to be discovered by those looking for an alternative to Hype and commercialism.
This all makes me think of the liner notes presented on the Monroe Brothers reissue some years ago which quoted Bob Dylan saying that the story of American music is heard in the Monroe's recordings.
While Dylan himself saw the importance of The Monroe's music,I didn't feel as though I needed his blessing to hear the brilliance in what they were doing myself.
Dropping names of commercial musicians to get someone to hear the validity of Folk music is a tired exercise.
The proof is in the listening  and appreciation of these seminal artists on their own terms, not tenuous connections made by ignorant music journalists and those threatened by the concept that American folk music evolved years ago under very different cultural circumstances.
Rock music was a call for rebellion, innovation and entertainment,,Mr. White fits this definition nicely.   
Folk music existed to celebrate daily joys and struggles in average peoples lives and needed no audience to develop... a nuanced and complex ideal,he is not suited to.

----------


## JeffD

> Rock music was a call for rebellion, innovation and entertainment,,Mr. White fits this definition nicely.   
> Folk music existed to celebrate daily joys and struggles in average peoples lives and needed no audience to develop... a nuanced and complex ideal,he is not suited to.


Well thought out and well written. (And not just because I agree.  :Smile:   Of course.) Seriously though, the whole post was a joy to think through. This kind of post and this kind of thoroughgoing thinking makes extending this thread worth it. 

The point of the thread isn't wnning, its the back and forth. Dr. E, your contributions are like clean water.

----------


## catmandu2

Actually, there is a "rebellious" aspect of old-time music, too, and of course are the "roots" of rock music.  Hence, one of the connections between "arrogant" punk and old-time (a challenging association, but one nonetheless).






> I have tried to stretch my definitions as far as I possibly can to try to include him and his music along side,Doc Boggs,Roscoe Holcombe,Doc Roberts,Scotdale Stringband,Yank Rachel,Bill Monroe,Dennis McGee and can not for the life of me find similarity or influence of any of these artists from a aural perspective.


Personally I wouldn't think of trying to include White and his music alongside these.  But branching from these--certainly.






> ...difficult for me to place him next to the masters of American Folk and Blues


It never occurred to me to think of White in this context.  If someone is suggesting such, I would like to talk with them.





> I must then assume that this is a typical discourse that goes along with an insecurity some musicians feel when in the company of those who have rejected Rock and Pop music in favor of the folk styles mentioned above.


This is an interesting remark--a spurious conclusion perhaps based upon projection of some sort.  If I were interested in personalizing the discussion, I might suggest that some feel insecure when in the company of those who enjoy, understand and participate in multiple genres--including trad OT, as well as new manifestations (a thought which has occurred to me much throughout this discussion).  Trad is great, of course--I love it.  But I don't feel compelled to get defensive about it.  :Smile:

----------


## JEStanek

I wasn't trying to say he's an fabulous performer of Roots Music styles, just that he has a genuine interest in them and is doing some good production work for some performers in them.  I like a good bit of his music and the stuff he's produced.  As a producer he's no T. Bone Burnett either but, at least his efforts raise awareness that there is more out there than Kidz Bop XXXIV.

Jamie

----------


## catmandu2

> As a producer he's no T. Bone Burnett either...


White is the next generation -- exposed to many more diverse influences, while still retaining "old-time" aesthetic.

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## journeybear

Just so we're clear, my objection was never about Jack White's association with roots music, but the alleged old-timey connection, which I don't hear in his music at all. His being cast in "Cold Mountain" was apparently a result of a friendship with Renee Zellweger (if we can take John Flynn's intel on the subject as accurate, as seen in post #2, more than six years ago), and if so, surely a canny move by the producers to boost publicity. Mr. Flynn's appraisal of Mr. White is rather caustic, so if you are a Jack White fan you may wish to avoid this (and also not bother him about something he said so long ago - I am just mentioning this for the Zellweger reference).

You make some good points, Dr. Gene, but you are also painting with some broad strokes, in your comments about Led Zeppelin and The Rolling Stones. I think they, along with other bands such as Cream, Ten Years After, and ZZ Top, did an excellent job of fusing blues and rock, and for a long time kept one foot in each. Zep and the Stones were also very good at crediting their influences and giving songwriting credit to the bluesmen whose songs they covered. I won't disagree that they could get bombastic - especially Zep - as they were taking what had been done before and moving it forward, but they incorporated acoustic elements into their music as well. For instance, Led Zeppelin's "Bring It On Home" starts and ends with acoustic guitar and harmonica segments. The Rolling Stones' version of Robert Johnson's "Love In Vain" includes some great mandolin work by Ry Cooder (possibly my introduction to recordings of the instrument), as well as acoustic and slide guitars. Obviously, they played other music as well - they were rock bands, after all, not blues bands - and even the blues they played was often served up with more swagger than the original versions (though Muddy Waters and other bluesmen had swagger to spare), but they didn't completely disregard the blues either. Indeed, coming to this as a rocker, it was by listening to these and other records that I learned about the blues and followed these artists' influences to their sources. But yes, as the 70s wore on, in their recordings they travelled far afield from these roots, and I don't blame you a bit for having turned away from them as their careers veered away. However, it is worth mentioning that even later in their recording careers they revisited the blues occasionally (for instance, the piano-and-mandolin driven "Boogie With Stu" from Led Zeppelin), and also their live shows included plenty of blues, even if they weren't _recording_ them so much anymore. 

I admit to not listening to Jack White or The White Stripes a whole lot, and am still somewhat mystified as to the high regard his guitar playing commands within the rock community, even after viewing "It Might get Loud" (which informed me much more about him than Jimmy Page or The Edge, BTW), but thanks largely to this thread and the passion some contributors have displayed, I am keeping my mind open.

----------


## mandowilli

I had never watched this movie or heard its music until I started following this thread.  A few years back my teenage daughter excitedly told me about Jack White and the White Stripes so I knew of him and his music.

As a musician myself, when I play any song from the past I feel that I am paying homage to it, while also introducing it to a new audience that may have no knowledge of the artist or genre.  I may be doing it through a PA system at a Bistro as opposed to sitting around a bonfire with holes in my shoes by the river in some early 1900's southern town, but the music is still alive inside of me and this is how I share it in the 21st century.

A successful young musician today lives in the 21st century and, in the case of Jack White, was cast as an actor in a work of art of a movie that allowed him to connect his young audience with these great old songs and artists.

He is "suited to" that and in my opinion did it quite well.

----------


## catmandu2

My take on White's inclusion in "In Might Get Loud" (and the White House thing, et al.) -- but I had very little familiarity with White (one of my first exposures was the clip of the Dead Weather I posted some, oh...pages back) -- is that he is regarded more for his total efforts in the music, rather than for his relative technical accomplishment as a guitarist.

----------


## catmandu2

> As a musician myself, when I play any song from the past I feel that I am paying homage to it, while also introducing it to a new audience that may have no knowledge of the artist or genre.  I may be doing it through a PA system at a Bistro as opposed to sitting around a bonfire with holes in my shoes by the river in some early 1900's southern town, but the music is still alive inside of me and this is how I share it in the 21st century.


Form changes--content endures.

----------


## journeybear

He may also get cited (as a representative guitarist of his times) more often than other (possibly more deserving) guitarists because by now he is so visible. That is, someone who doesn't know a whole lot about music (say, a casting director) may ask someone else who doesn't know a whole lot about music (say, the publicist) who they should get for a role, and his name would come up because he's well-known these days. Or someone writing a not-terribly-in-depth article might mention his name without knowing much about him or his music because he/she has seen the name and is vaguely aware of agenerally foavorable regard among the general public. Stuff like this happens, a lot.  :Wink:

----------


## catmandu2

> He may also get cited (as a representative guitarist of his times) more often than other (possibly more deserving) guitarists because by now he is so visible.


Deleted (after above post was edited).

----------


## JeffD

> That is, someone who doesn't know a whole lot about music (say, a casting director) may ask someone else who doesn't know a whole lot about music (say, the publicist) who they should get for a role, and his name would come up because he's well-known these days. Or someone writing a not-terribly-in-depth article might mention his name without knowing much about him or his music because he/she has seen the name and is vaguely aware of agenerally foavorable regard among the general public. Stuff like this happens, a lot.


I have been surprised at how often this apparently happens, and more importantly, how this gets into the critical literature as fact and influences the opinions of those with even less exposure.

And now with that new Google tool, you can rank the relative cultural importance of phrases and terms at any point in history by how many times they show up, or how often terms show up in tandem. So the slightly more than erroneous citations just multiply through history as factoids,and then legends.

----------


## catmandu2

The artefacts of pop culture are indeed curious, and often confounding.  This is one reason why I find particular value in this discussion (and this forum) and encouraged the participation of DrEugeneStrickland specifically: I find it important to differentiate between styles (for example, between trad OT and, say, nouveau OT...of which there are many examples, btw), largely for the reasons cited above.  As I stated previously, there is of course a difference between trad OT and, say, the nouveau OT expression of White.  But this does not obviate White's relevance to the genre.

That DrEugeneStrickland would fail to find a linkage or relationship between these, however, does surprise me.

----------


## Ed Goist

This thread has now officially joined Keith Richards, Cockroaches, and Cher as the only things that will survive the Apocalypse, and go on forever...and ever.

----------


## catmandu2

I can't speak to what went on six years ago, but I've found it pretty invigorating since about the last month and a half.

You mean White's been a subject of OT since 2004?  Wow.  :Wink:

----------


## mandolirius

"In the pursuit of a common language and defining operational terms necessary for critical discourse, it might be useful to use the tree and branch analogy when conceptualizing music categorically."

 :Laughing:

----------


## catmandu2

> I am keeping my mind open.


That, IME, is a valuable perspective.

One thing I'll add that might help to mollify the fears of the OT police:  When I play trad music with my old cronies (I'm a card-carrying member of the Montana OT fiddlers, play in a trad Scandinavian duo/trio with a hardanger fiddler, play several instruments in contradance groups, and some Cajun music, to say nothing of my banjo forays...), I don't play with much rock-inflection -- preserving the tradition in these contexts is safe with me.  :Wink: 

However, in my bluegrass group we take a much more diverse approach and play tunes by Stevie Wonder, the Turtles, the Kinks, Bee-als...  Ah well, that's BG for ya.

----------


## JeffD

> I think some of the challenge in finding agreement, consensus--or as Jamie put it, a clear line of victory--in this discussion ensues from the disparate perspective, or metaperspective, we all have here.  Therefore, breaking it down into common elements or using a standard heuristc of critical approaches is useful.


I q

----------


## JeffD

> I think some of the challenge in finding agreement, consensus--or as Jamie put it, a clear line of victory--in this discussion ensues from the disparate perspective, or metaperspective, we all have here.  Therefore, breaking it down into common elements or using a standard heuristc of critical approaches is useful.


I agree entirely. However, I do not seek the goal of finding agreement, consensus, or victory. Because:

An agreement from such disparate points of view would mean one side had let go of the distinctions.
The distinctions are important, and a consensus would mean that the distinctions themselves have been blurred
Victory would end the conversation, not because anyone was convinced, but because one side gave up.

I think a much better solution is to agree to disagree.




> White is the next generation -- exposed to many more diverse influences, while still retaining "old-time" aesthetic.


This would be a tragedy. Not that I am against OT being exposed to many more and diverse influences, there is a lot of room for that. And I look forward to it. I just hope White is not the direction of the evolution. It seems to me that, among other things, what is valuable about the old time aesthetic is its contrast with White et al. and that particular slice of the popular culture. It seems to me that what ever does evolve in that direction will have lost its old time aesthetic. It may be great music, that is a judgement call I am not prepared to argue, but it will nolonger be OT in any meaningful way.

Some of Jamies comments make me question this last comment a bit. But I am not ready to amend it.  :Smile: 





> Trad is great, of course--I love it. But I don't feel compelled to get defensive about it.


I think that points to the desparate perspectives you mention. I think that innovation and envelope pushing and challenging the status quo are great too, but there is a place for reverence and the defense of tradition, even aesthetic tradition, in the face of change.

Change cannot be stopped, and nobody in their right mind would seriously consider it, but that doesn't mean we come down in favor of any old change, defended on the basis of the inevitability of change itself. 

Whatever OT may become, I would hope that it would stand distinct from the kind of music White is most known for. Of course if White were to put away his red umbrella, I would not be opposed to him becoming OT.  :Smile:

----------


## JEStanek

My thing with Jack White is similar to my thing with Oh Brother Where Art Thou.  a very popular movie opens a genre up to people because of the soundtrack.  Lots of kids younger than me, likely bought the soundtrack just b/c Jack White was on it.  Maybe some of them went deeper in depth into other things.  I, for example, didn't know about shaped note singing (which I find very powerful to listen and sing along with) until that soundtrack.  That soundtrack opened the Songs of The Mountain CD to me (which I like better).

This is why I feel JW's involvement is a good thing in these various ventures.  Some folks will buy his stuff just because he's associated with it.  Some of those folks may delve deeper into American Roots music deeper because of it.

I'll respect the folks who want to keep the traditions tight. I get that.  There's a place for it.  There's room for all in my opinion.

Jamie

----------


## mandolirius

As the process of globalization continues, nothing will remain pure. Everything is going to be altered, affected, tainted, compromised, expanded, ruined, improved...whatever your point of view may be. The results, in some cases, will be truly bizarre to certain folks.

----------


## catmandu2

> the Turtles...


I meant "the Animals."  Don't why I was thinking turtles...?

----------


## mandolirius

> I meant "the Animals."  Don't why I was thinking turtles...?


 :Laughing:

----------


## catmandu2

> I agree entirely. However, I do not seek the goal of finding agreement, consensus, or victory.


For the record, I was being facetious by using Jamie's words.  I merely seek a common language (so that we may communicate about ideas without becoming defensive or condescending), not a commonality of experience, necessarily.

----------


## catmandu2

> the Songs of The Mountain CD...


I came round to that before I became aware of the movie--we don't go to movie theaters, so I always miss seeing movies when they're current.  This was one of a handful of Tim/Dirk CDs that I was obsessed with around that time.  The fiddle medley that opens that CD is still about my favorite set of tunes to play on fiddle.  Learned "Blackest Crow" from that too, and it remains just about my wife's favorite to sing to this day.

One thing that movie C.M. did do for me was to pique my interest for a movie I randomly picked up at the rental store one night--"Songcatcher"--which has some nice OT moments in it; I forget who it is playing fiddle in that, but I thknk there's an out-take of him playing Sail Away Ladies...which I commenced to learn right then and there--still one of my favorites to play.

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## allenhopkins

> ..."Songcatcher"--which has some nice OT moments in it...


Sheila Kay Adams was one of the music consultants on _Songcatcher_ (also the banjo player in the little band); you'd enjoy getting to know her music and writings, I think.

----------


## catmandu2

> Sheila Kay Adams was one of the music consultants on _Songcatcher_ (also the banjo player in the little band); you'd enjoy getting to know her music and writings, I think.


Thanks Allen--I'll check that out.

----------


## JeffD

> This is why I feel JW's involvement is a good thing in these various ventures.  Some folks will buy his stuff just because he's associated with it.  Some of those folks may delve deeper into American Roots music deeper because of it.
> Jamie


You are correct. And that some might get interested in OT because of White is a good thing. How ever they get here, they get here. 

I remember a similar point made on a thread about Paul McCartney, how if Paul gets more folks interested in the mandolin then its a good thing, regardless of what one may have thought of "Dance Tonight".

Similarly, I was really surprized (I guess I live in a box), at how many folks got into bluegrass through the connection between Dave Grisman and Jerry Garcia. I guess I kind of thought you had to get there through local musical participation in OT or BG.

Similar to how the movie "A River Runs Through It" got a generation into fly fishing. I thought you had to catch the bug from your Dad.

----------


## catmandu2

> Similarly, I was really surprized (I guess I live in a box), at how many folks got into bluegrass through the connection between Dave Grisman and Jerry Garcia. I guess I kind of thought you had to get there through local musical participation in OT or BG.
> 
> Similar to how the movie "A River Runs Through It" got a generation into fly fishing. I thought you had to catch the bug from your Dad.


In my estimation--Garcia (et al.) has done more to disseminate (popularize) mandolin, bluegrass, old-time, and roots music than probably any other single source.  Having lived in college towns since 1985, I've observed a steadily increasing trend in college students who play mandolin.  It's rare that any young mandolinist that I meet hasn't an intimate knowledge of Garcia and his colleagues.  The jam-band milieu that Garcia helped to establish persists widely and usually has a goodly portion of acoustic music as either a feature or basis.

In Boulder you can't throw a stone without hitting a bluegrass player with a master's degree.  Around these parts where fly-fishing is a religion (the story was based on this area and the movie was filmed a few miles from me up the Blackfoot River), you can't throw without hitting a fly-fisherman, and chances are good that they're also a bluegrass aficionado.

----------


## catmandu2

> ...to put it another way: *Roscoe Holcomb didn't think the folks up thar in the city (Seeger, Cohen and those guys) were playing "real" old time music either.*  (lol )




Or to put it yet another way-

_Animals are divided into: (a) belonging to the Emperor, (b) embalmed, (c) tame, (d) sucking pigs, (e) sirens, (f) fabulous, (g) stray dogs, (h) included in the present classification, (i) frenzied, (j) innumerable, (k) drawn with a very fine camelhair brush, (l) et cetera, (m) having just broken the water pitcher, (n) that from a long way off look like flies._

-Chinese encyclopedia

----------


## Talabardio

> T
> 
> That DrEugeneStrickland would fail to find a linkage or relationship between these, however, does surprise me.


He seems to not be threatened by the concept of ignoring mainstream music. The Doctor is such a scream, I wish he posted on here a lot more often. I really enjoy his ultra-dry, "no bull####" approach and encyclopedia-like mind. I bet he's a blast at parties.  :Laughing:

----------


## DrEugeneStrickland

As many friendships and associations the late Mr. Seeger had with various commercial mainstream Rock and Folk artists during his life he never gave up his commitment to seeking out the "true vines" of traditional American music, never once considering dashing it all to play a loud electric guitar and make big money,play arena's and get loaded.
I am quite happy a Mr.Garcia and Mr. White have come along to entertain us and make us feel that the times we are living in NOW are SO VERY IMPORTANT ... but it took the vision of a Mike Seeger to find the eternal qualities of our country's music which lives on long after trends have come and gone.

----------


## Talabardio

Wow that was fast.

----------


## JeffD

> I am quite happy a Mr.Garcia and Mr. White have come along to entertain us and make us feel that the times we are living in NOW are SO VERY IMPORTANT ... but it took the vision of a Mike Seeger to find the eternal qualities of our country's music which lives on long after trends have come and gone.


I like that. "Eternal Qualities".

Another person to contrast with White, would be John Paul Jones, of Led Zeppelin fame. He has been very important to Rock of course, and he plays the mandolin. But he has performed and worked with music in the OT style, (most notably Gillian Welch), more than that I am most appreciative of his participating in the slow jam at the Swannanoa Old Time week, jamming with the folks and absorbing the vibe just like everyone else there.

----------


## DrEugeneStrickland

Indeed JeffD
Mr Jones digs deeper then most Rockers and is a humble and unassuming soul... not to mention a superb mandolin artist at least compared to Mr White...

----------


## JeffD

> is a humble and unassuming soul... ..


He is a really nice guy. It reveals my own cultural prejudices that this took me by surprize. 

And yea, he pulls some really good music out of that mandolin.

----------


## DrEugeneStrickland

apparently Mr Jones has been coming along quite nicely on the fiddle in an Old Time Appalachian vein as well ...

----------


## catmandu2

> As many friendships and associations the late Mr. Seeger had with various commercial mainstream Rock and Folk artists during his life he never gave up his commitment to seeking out the "true vines" of traditional American music, never once considering dashing it all to play a loud electric guitar and make big money,play arena's and get loaded.
> I am quite happy a Mr.Garcia and Mr. White have come along to entertain us and make us feel that the times we are living in NOW are SO VERY IMPORTANT ... but it took the vision of a Mike Seeger to find the eternal qualities of our country's music which lives on long after trends have come and gone.


Yes, I like Mike Seeger too.





> Indeed JeffD
> Mr Jones digs deeper then most Rockers and is a humble and unassuming soul... not to mention a superb mandolin artist at least compared to Mr White...


So, you like Jones, and he plays the mandolin.


Anything else going on?

This discussion is becoming entertaining in a way that I'd not anticipated.

----------


## catmandu2

DrEugeneStrickland:

With all due respect, I was expecting a serious and relevant reply to issues I have raised--as opposed to lengthy posts on rock stars of the past that I enjoyed 35 years ago.  I suddenly feel compelled to go back and read some of your writing which, I confess, I only skimmed initially when I realized its content.

The way in which you chastise minimalist forms--punk rock music, for example--signifies that, either you lack a broad understanding of cultural expressions, or disdain some forms so much that it precludes you from critical perspective.

Frankly, I'm astounded that someone holding an advanced degree in ethnomusicology would possess such a limited viewpoint, or express such on a public forum.

I apologize for the rather direct message, and do not intend any disrespect.  But this is somewhat perplexing to me.  It certainly isn't indicative of the academic rigor that I'm accustomed to.

----------


## DrEugeneStrickland

Although Mr. Jones played in a legendary Rock Band, the music his band played had absolutely nothing to do with Old Time Appalachian music.
Mr Jones played the mandolin fluidly in some of the Rock material.
Now with nothing to prove to the world,he has delved deeply into the study of Old Time music.
His past accomplishments have no bearing on the music he is playing today.
I for one feel he is worth mentioning in this thread as a mandolin player interested in the study of Old Time Music and not pretending to be a master of the style by associating with those who are. 
If he were to release an album of Appalachian music he would certainly not expect it to be the standard of great music in this style simply because he was once a Famous musician in an unrelated style

----------


## DrEugeneStrickland

I confess my focus is on Pre WW2 Appalachian music, so becoming entangled in discourse concerning Rock music or any other mainstream modern music has me a bit out of my element.
I am  looking forward to more discussions about mandolinists from the Golden Era,but alas  random and vague philosophical theories abound on this thread, loosely connecting modern musicians with a ludicrously broad definitions of Old Time Music.
It is very difficult to remain hopeful that the conversation might switch over to highlighting say, the achievements of the mandolin pioneer from the 1920's, Doc Roberts? ...

----------


## catmandu2

> Although Mr. Jones played in a legendary Rock Band, the music his band played had absolutely nothing to do with Old Time Appalachian music.
> Mr Jones played the mandolin fluidly in some of the Rock material.
> Now with nothing to prove to the world,he has delved deeply into the study of Old Time music.
> His past accomplishments have no bearing on the music he is playing today.
> I for one feel he is worth mentioning in this thread as a mandolin player interested in the study of Old Time Music and not pretending to be a master of the style by associating with those who are. 
> If he were to release an album of Appalachian music he would certainly not expect it to be the standard of great music in this style simply because he was once a Famous musician in an unrelated style





> I confess my focus is on Pre WW2 Appalachian music, so becoming entangled in discourse concerning Rock music or any other mainstream modern music has me a bit out of my element.
> I am  looking forward to more discussions about mandolinists from the Golden Era,but alas  random and vague philosophical theories abound on this thread, loosely connecting modern musicians with a ludicrously broad definitions of Old Time Music.
> It is very difficult to remain hopeful that the conversation might switch over to highlighting say, the achievements of the mandolin pioneer from the 1920's, Doc Roberts? ...


 
I see.  Well, thanks anyway.





> ...loosely connecting modern musicians with a ludicrously broad definitions of Old Time Music.


On the contrary, I am applying principles of critical analysis and theoretical concepts readily obtained from any good basic theory and criticism text.

I have some experience and am familiar with terms in cultural anthropology, social and psychological theory, art history, theory and critique, and music.  You may speak freely and using scientifc jargon in these fields, and I will be able to communicate with you.

Music criticism is concerned with analyzing its subject typically using approaches from all of these disciplines, and its principles and methods may be applied to any genre, style or period.  Punk music, Jack White, et al. may not be your "thing," but it is a legitimate cultural expression within the grasp of a trained, competent ethnomusicologist.  It is not my area of speciality, either, but the principles of music criticism may be applied anywhere (that's one of the things about academia--it's not particularly picky about the phenomena observed--its method is develioping theories that are as "universal" as possible, that can stand the test of being applied here, there, today tomorrow).  But the first order of business in any discipline is becoming fluent in its terms, basic theories and practices.  From what I know of ethnomusicology from lay study, music criticism and cultural anthropology are key foundations to its methods.

----------


## JeffD

> Now with nothing to prove to the world,he has delved deeply into the study of Old Time music.
> His past accomplishments have no bearing on the music he is playing today.
> I for one feel he is worth mentioning in this thread as a mandolin player interested in the study of Old Time Music and not pretending to be a master of the style by associating with those who are.


Which, in my opinion, is in contrast to what Jack White is doing.

----------


## JeffD

> With all due respect, I was expecting a serious and relevant reply to issues I have raised--as opposed to lengthy posts on rock stars of the past that I enjoyed 35 years ago.  I suddenly feel compelled to go back and read some of your writing which, I confess, I only skimmed initially when I realized its content.
> .


Do you not see that the point here? We are noting people whose involvement with the music is in contrast to Jack White's, to point out what White could be doing but is not. The time frame in which JPJ was a rock star is not as relevant as that his behavior seems to indicate that his insterest in OT is sincere, that he knows his expertise in a popular genre of music has only peripherally prepared him for all that OT is, and that he is putting in the time to "get it".




> Punk music, Jack White, et al. may not be your "thing," but it is a legitimate cultural expression within the grasp of a trained, competent ethnomusicologist.


The point is not whether these forms of popular music are a legitimate cultural expression, or wether or not they are as deeply rooted in the musical traditions of a people. While a discussion of this might be interesting, it is beside the point.

Not every kind of legitimate cultural expression can be called old time music, and not every kind of cultural expression prepares one for understanding old time music. From a thousand miles away, it would appear that JPJ realizes this, and is taking the time to find out what OT is about, to inform his participation. From a thousand miles away, it would appear that Jack White is not.

----------


## catmandu2

I have solved the puzzle.  DrEugeneStrickland is actually a psuedonym created by... *TALABARDIO*!  :Wink: 


I figured this out about a half hour ago and have been chuckling ever since.  There were several clues, of course:

1. - The "Dr's" awkward presentation and ostensible lack of any knowledge remotely pertaining to the field of ethnomusicology
2. - The "member" Talabardio's recent faliure at gaining satisfaction on this thread (the motive)
3. - Of course, that the "Dr." posted today at 4:20 (something I took note of earlier today)
4. - The "Dr's" interests, listed in his profile
5. - That, when challenged to produce something of substance, the "Dr," instead of providing anything that makes any sense, was perusing threads like "Jesse McReynolds Plays the Dead" -- (a dead giveaway, if you'll pardon the pun)


It first dawned on me when I thought it might be JeffD--so enamoured of the "Dr's" posts.  Or, journeybear, but he's too busy composing his own screeds to feel the need to go under a psuedonym and perpetrate such a hoax.  And of course Larry S. Sherman, who reads this thread but does not post...but his profile says that he's a runner, and runners generally have better sense.


My compliments, Talabardio.  (but, you are twisted  :Wink: ).


Jamie, can you check this out to see if I'm right?  I'm only 90% confident.

----------


## JeffD

> I have solved the puzzle.  DrEugeneStrickland is actually a psuedonym created by... *TALABARDIO*! 
> .


What possible difference could this make? If someone has an interesting point, or has organized some ideas into powerful point, I could care less.

Its not the "Dr" I am enamored of, and I am in no position to check or discern anyone's credentials in ethnomusicology. Its the content of his posts I am responding to. 

As I do yours, not because of any credentials you may or may not have, but soley on the points you are making. 

This is too interesting to devolve this way, we need to keep to the point.

----------


## catmandu2

> What possible difference could this make? If someone has an interesting point, or has organized some ideas into powerful point, I could care less.
> 
> Its not the "Dr" I am enamored of, and I am in no position to check or discern anyone's credentials in ethnomusicology. Its the content of his posts I am responding to. 
> 
> As I do yours, not because of any credentials you may or may not have, but soley on the points you are making. 
> 
> This is too interesting to devolve this way, we need to keep to the point.




But Jeff!  Are you *serious*?   This is truly bizarre...

I was quite surprised by this--and I laughed for about ten minutes!  Are you not surprised?  Or at least humored?  It never occured to me that someone would do this!  

I guess I'm still naive with this internet thing.

Do you really think it's a good idea to do this kind of thing?  This is a very sophisticated form of trolling.  And besides, you can see that the "Dr's" hoax didn't last very long, (and he didn't add anything meaningful to the discussion, despite your impressions...sorry).

Nor was I in any position to check on anyone's credentials--it's merely a hunch, and now all of the clues make sense.  I merely used reason and intelligence to deduce.

----------


## JeffD

> Do you really think it's a good idea to do this kind of thing. .


Of course not. But I am not clever enough to detect it. And I am wrapped up in the ideas being expressed and not who might do what to win an arguement.

----------


## catmandu2

> Of course not. But I am not clever enough to detect it. And I am wrapped up in the ideas being expressed and not who might do what to win an arguement.


Well, _oookaaay_.   :Confused:  :Confused:  :Confused:  :Confused: 


Between my bass player at rehearsal tonight, and your equivocating view of this hoax, I'm somewhat bewildered.






> Its not the "Dr" I am enamored of, and I am in no position to check or discern anyone's credentials in ethnomusicology. Its the content of his posts I am responding to.


This is one of the more entertaining twists, though: that you and others would be so obsequiesce and even fawning over "a guy" who posts claiming to have a PhD in ethnomusicology.  I would suggest being somewhat more critical, generally, even if someone is purporting to have creds.  Doesn't it seem a wee bit weird to you that you aligned yourself immediately with a guy with no knowledge about the subject and, demonstrated this time and again?  At least journeybear was compelled to disagree with the "Dr" about _some_thing, (even if it _was_ totally irrelevant!  :Laughing: ).

*Your disagreement with me should not compel you to find solace so easily -- you don't want to be so easily manipulated, I would hope.*

----------


## Ed Goist

I gotta say, I think this recent development is pretty funny and cool as well...

You had almost lost me, and then, Bang! The possibility of a clever ruse! *NICE.*

BTW, Jack White remains one of my favorite performers. He clearly loves roots music, and appreciates music as an end in itself, not just as a means to fame and fortune...At least that's how I read him, and that, combined with his unique talent as a performer is enough to make me a fan.

Oh, and here is my best possible evidence to support his validity as a legitimate subject in this sub-forum...




Is it strictly Old-Time? No. 
Does it show, as a performance, respect for, and appreciation for roots music? You Bet!

Oh, and let me say in advance that this is just an old rock-n-roller's opinion, and it is a poorly informed opinion at that. I know very little about Old-Time music. I just know what I like. So please don't challenge this post expecting a reply. You will not get one.

I do know for sure that one of the primary reasons niche things are niche thing is that those in the community tend to follow arbitrary, draconian rules for preserving the "established norms" and for precluding new and original things from the community...

The _"That ain't no part of nothing"_ philosophy can preserve the purity and legacy of a genre on one hand, but it can stifle it's expansion and growth, and even asphyxiate it, on the other.

----------


## JeffD

> The _"That ain't no part of nothing"_ philosophy can preserve the purity and legacy of a genre on one hand, but it can stifle it's expansion and growth, and even asphyxiate it, on the other.


That is the struggle isn't it. Thats the tight rope. And its hard to get it right.


Here is JPJ with Gillian Welch. Also not exactly OT, but shows some real appreciation, as you say, for roots music. And some killer mandolin of course  :Smile:

----------


## catmandu2

Oh my.  You have doomed this thread, no doubt, to at least another page or two...(much to Allen's dismay!)


Well then.  Let's return to a discussion of the music, shall we.   :Smile:

----------


## JeffD

> that you and others would be so obsequiesce and even fawning over "a guy" who posts claiming to have a PhD in ethnomusicology.  I would suggest being somewhat more critical, generally, even if someone is purporting to have creds.  Doesn't it seem a wee bit weird to you that you aligned yourself immediately with a guy with no knowledge about the subject and, demonstrated this time and again?  At least journeybear was compelled to disagree with the "Dr" about _some_thing, (even if it _was_ totally irrelevant! ).
> 
> Your disagreement with me should not compel you to find solace so easily.  Just a suggestion.


Huh? What?  :Confused: 

I didn't know or care what the PhD was in. I missed that. I was aligning myself with those parts of his posts that helped me make my points.

I certainly don't need solace.

----------


## JeffD

Now this is a bit more interesting.  Hmmmm.

----------


## catmandu2

> I was aligning myself with those parts of his posts that helped me make my points.


Well, yeah...that's what I mean.  Jeff, I'm sorry to tell ya, but there was little substance, relevance, or anything else meaningful in your friend the good doctor's posts.  You made far better sense than Talabardio--give yourself credit.  I admire your ability to be sincere, don't give that up.  You don't need to side with Talabardio's alter ego to make a point.  I'm listening to you.


Okay, the music.  What the hell is that they're playing up there in that clip?  Good god, it's got mandolin too.  This should make our "friend" the doctor quite pleased!  :Smile: 


Larry S. Sherman--I know you're reading this.  Whaddya think?

----------


## DrEugeneStrickland

Ah, is this real proof that Mr White's art encompasses Old Time music?
If this is what the fuss is about,I am shocked.
From his flat unsure rendering of this ancient ballad to his awkward stage manner,it is clear Mr White is entirely out of place in this idiom and he knows it.
He has my respect for trying, but this moment in music history is instantly and laughably forgettable.
This clip of a Rock musician with lots of empty attitude surrounded and stylistically dwarfed by masters of traditional music will in no way inspire me to participate further in a discussion that expands itself to include Mr. White's "brand" of Old Time Music as a legitimate "branch" or "sub category".
It is possible that Mr. White's Rock music presents a more ragged or raw("Old Time"...?) sensibility then is available in the marketplace these days...
However, this doesn't translate to anything that would be defined by actual lovers and players of Old Time Appalachian music as such,I am quite certain.
I suppose  I am branded a "fraud" it will be much easier for someone who feels it is important to "win" the "argument"... 
My purpose in all this is to perhaps shift the very thoughtful and creative discourse about the intersection of popular and traditional music over to the "Rock" thread,a far more appropriate spot.

----------


## Ed Goist

> ...snip...
> Here is JPJ with Gillian Welch. Also not exactly OT, but shows some real appreciation, as you say, for roots music. And some killer mandolin of course 
> ...snipped video...


Jeff, thank you so much for posting this video. I don't know how I've been missing this gem.
I can't stop watching...So good, so good.
Thank You!
-Ed

----------


## Larry S Sherman

> Larry S. Sherman--I know you're reading this.  Whaddya think?


Sorry, I will not be trolled.

----------


## JeffD

> From his flat unsure rendering of this ancient ballad to his awkward stage manner,it is clear Mr White is entirely out of place in this idiom and he knows it.
> He has my respect for trying, but this moment in music history is instantly and laughably forgettable..


I wasn't thrilled with his performance either. It struck me that he looked a little scared or something. Its hard to tell, because I am not real familiar with his normal stage manner or voice. But were I to judge the performance on its face, it didn't do much for me.

But he was there. Just as he indeed was on a sound stage wih Ricky Skaggs. It doesn't make him an OT musician IMO, and it doesn't expand OT to include his kind of music, IMO, but its a bit more partipaton than I was prepared to grant him.

Its not black in white at the edges. And I go back to Jamie's point that its good for the music because perhaps those of White's fans not familiar with OT will be exposed to it as they follow him around.

----------


## catmandu2

> Sorry, I will not be trolled.


No, no, no.   About the *music*, man!   :Wink:

----------


## catmandu2

> I wasn't thrilled with his performance either. It struck me that he looked a little scared or something.


This is ironic.  Jeff's having a discussion with a ghost, who are both together questioning the _authenticity_ of a guy who's playing music.   :Smile: 

I'm not sure this is what Mr. Foucault had in mind, but, well...okay.




> It doesn't expand OT to include his kind of music...


What _would_ you call the style of music performed in the Wayfaring Stranger clip?

----------


## JeffD

We are all ghosts on line Cat. In all the years I have been here I ave not met but a few folks in person, and those I knew (or knew of) already anyway. We are all ghosts.

I just take everyone for who they say they are on this forum, and assume there is some phase angle between the on line persona and the person in 3D "meat space".

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## catmandu2

> ...will in no way inspire me to participate further in a discussion that expands itself to include Mr. White's "brand" of Old Time Music.


Does this mean that you're receding back into the ether, "professor" Talabardio?


Well, it has been fun.  I'll look for ya in another incarnation.   :Wink:

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## DrEugeneStrickland

I would be happy to give Mr. Whites Old Time Music attempt another chance when and if he does his homework.
I don't get the impression he is headed down that road however.
Now David Grisman is the one folk musician who's music and respect for tradition has made him the premiere "gateway" figure for those who want to dig backwards and discover the deeper roots of American music,in this respect I am glad he has made important contributions to culture through his work with Jerry Garcia.

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## catmandu2

:Wink:

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## catmandu2

> We are all ghosts on line Cat. In all the years I have been here I ave not met but a few folks in person, and those I knew (or knew of) already anyway. We are all ghosts.
> 
> I just take everyone for who they say they are on this forum, and assume there is some phase angle between the on line persona and the person in 3D "meat space".



This seems a risky policy, Jeff.  Although you may not have a preference for buying your "goods" at a bricks and mortar shop, thought is a valuable commodity.  It should be your own.

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## Talabardio

> I see.  Well, thanks anyway.
> 
> Punk music, Jack White, et al. may not be your "thing," but it is a legitimate cultural expression within the grasp of a trained, competent ethnomusicologist.  It is not my area of speciality, either, but the principles of music criticism may be applied anywhere


Taste and appropriateness would deter most people from discussing Punk music, Jack White, et al. at length in an ongoing 'old time mandolin' forum context. While one may reserve the right to not love the professor's warm hearted style, he is so relentlessly right-on here it makes me LOL. 

Professor, I really enjoyed your entry into the weak discussion of breton music a while back. Thank you for injecting a sobering dose of reality into the mass of absurd conjectures! Have you read the book about the great sonneur from the 19th century, Matelin An dall, by Bernard De Paredes? it contains a manuscript of pieces played by Matelin collected by his friend, Colonel Alfred Bourgeois. Only one copy of it survived in a museum in Rennes, and now it has been brought back into mass publication within this book. My wife and I have been learning some of this material. Priceless!

I could go on at truly great length about this music, but I'm afraid that to do so here in the old time forum would be... self-indulgent.

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## catmandu2

Interesting that you guys would feel the need to create an effigy to debate for you.

But this is the stuff of good fiction--very Vonnegut-esque.  Or Orwellian.  The disturbing part is that, even with the acolytes' knowledge that the effigy knows nothing of the subject, he is championed and annointed as "a leader"--no matter how wayward.

This motif is one of the more popular themes in literature.

Quite off-topic, but instructive in a more significant sense.

Back on-topic, it's exemplative of how threatened some folks are with anything new, challenging, or innovative.  I really didn't need six pages to demonstrate this...but it's been fun, anyway..

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## Talabardio

_<Inflammatory post removed by Moderator>_

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## Ed Goist

> We are all ghosts on line Cat...We are all ghosts...

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## catmandu2

Cool, Ed.  This reminds me of the article you provided the link to (pages 7-8...anyone remember _that_?--there was little if any discussion emanating from it).  I'm beginning to think you're right Jeff: _substantia noumo nada_


Of course, a better word would have been "dummy"--but I was trying to avoid provocative language, the naysayers being so volatile...

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## journeybear

I know they say, don't feed the troll, but this has gone on much too long. From the guidelines:

*Avoid flaming or trolling – posts intended to create discord, antagonize others or create general mayhem. Be polite and courteous at all times. We expect spirited discussions and widely varying opinions that some may even find offensive, but exercise caution.* 

This unfounded assertion that DrEugeneStrickland and Talabardio are the same person is ridiculous, dismaying, and offensive. If this were the case, they/he/she would have been shut down long ago. Scott and the moderators have, I believe, the means to determine whether anyone is doing this and will not stand for it. That neither of them had been shut down should prove this is not the case. Alleging this behavior without providing proof, in a public forum, is extremely rude. If you have proof, you should report this activity to admins, off-list. This kind of shaming does a disservice to all reading this thread, and ultimately brings shame on yourself.

The personal sniping, baiting, and derision you have indulged in is also unseemly behavior for this communication medium, and furthermore, just generally unkind. It is to these posters' credit that they have not taken your bait nor stooped to your level. I doubt I would have the same patience if it were me who had become the object of such nonsensical attacks.

It is interesting that after over 300 posts, no one has provided us with any audio or video examples of Jack White playing something truly resembling old-timey music. I can't say this represents definitive proof that nothing of that sort exists, but a preponderance of _lack_ of evidence implies that is likely the case. One version of "Wayfaring Pilgrim" does not make him an old-timey musician. Anyone can do any song in a set, but that will not make him or her a valid exponent of that genre. Nor does stretching the definition of a genre to suit one's assertion.

Now I feel like I am feeding the troll again. Well, go ahead, nitpick my post, take words out of context and spin them to suit your opinion. Keep in mind, though, that quoting a person's words against him to disprove his point or allege hypocrisy do not prove _your_ point. Unless, of course, you ascribe to the Pee Wee Herman defense strategy: "I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I?"

Finally, I noticed this morning this thread of interest, conveniently linked right at the bottom of the page all this time: Jack-White's-new-Old-Time-tribute-cd

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## catmandu2

My, my, wasn't it you schooling me on humor on the "doofus" thread?  Where is the "outraged indignation" smiley?   :Wink: 

No proof, just a hunch.  But now I'm 91% sure, as I have ruled you out more conclusively.

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## Talabardio

> I know they say, don't feed the troll, but this has gone on much too long. From the guidelines:


Journeybear, aren't you really... me?  He really is amusing... melting down on the other members for agreeing with the Dr. ...simply awesome!

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## catmandu2

_<Inflammatory post removed by Moderator>_

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## allenhopkins

> ...You have doomed this thread, no doubt, to at least another page or two...(much to *Allen's* dismay!...


Not _mine._  Been outta here for awhile.  Too much interpersonal sniper fire, not enough discussion of old-time music.  Some interesting videos posted, though.

Anticipating a lockdown in the foreseeable future.  In R Hunter's immortal woids, _"What a long strange trip it's been."_

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## catmandu2

> In R Hunter's immortal woids, _"What a long strange trip it's been."_


Indeed.

BTW, I checked Sheila Kay Adams' website, which didn't seem to be a particularly good source for her music and writings.  Can you refer me to another source that might?

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## allenhopkins

> ...I checked Sheila Kay Adams' website, which didn't seem to be a particularly good source for her music and writings.  Can you refer me to another source that might?...


Some MP3's of music and stories on *her Myspace page.*

I met Sheila Kay perhaps ten years ago at Pinewoods Camp.  She is one of the few remaining people who has actually accumulated a repertoire of traditional songs by interpersonal contact with older generation singers/musicians, not through working with collectors, recordings or professional performers.  As a result, she has some fascinating variants and oddities, as well as a huge number of hilarious anecdotes about the people from whom she learned her music -- great-aunts, isolated ballad singers and banjo pickers, etc.

I haven't read her novels, but she surely has the ability to tell a good story.  She's worked quite a bit with Bobby McMillan, I believe, who's another North Carolina traditional musician, and an expert on some of the famous "murder ballad" criminals like Thomas "Tom Dooley" Dula and Frankie Silver.

Now, just to let myself get sucked back down into the general discussion, one last time: people like Sheila Kay Adams and Bobby McMillan will live out their lives loving, preserving, performing, and spreading the traditional music they grew up hearing, and learned to play and understand themselves.  Their participation in the _Songcatcher_ movie went totally unremarked by the world in general.  _Songcatcher's_ somewhat confused and diffuse focus -- environmentalism, lesbianism, the threat to traditional mountain culture posed by efforts to record, collect, and present it to the "outside world" -- made its musical content somewhat beside the point, accurate and emotionally compelling though it was.  The little scene where the coal company's representative, one of the "villains" of the script, breaks into _Oh Death,_ was, IMHO, deeply emotionally affecting.  But let a rock star, whether Jack White, John Paul Jones, Robert Plant, Elvis Costello or whoever, show an interest in the same style of music, it's "news."  I'd be the last one -- well, maybe next to last -- to disrespect _anyone_ who developed a love for this style of music, or tried to perform or popularize it, no matter how ham-handed or "unauthentic" that person's "take" on old-time music was.  But neither would I attach undue significance to it, however I might measure "undue" to be.

Some earlier discussion of Mike Seeger, who was -- still is -- one of my idols; seeing him in a Cambridge coffeehouse in 1963 or so, probably determined what emphasis my next 45+ years of music would take.  He was, by all accounts and by my limited interaction with him, a difficult, prickly individual sometimes, not overly tolerant of disagreements or contradictions.  What led me to admire him, was his commitment to the music he loved, as a performer, collector, producer, preserver, spokesperson, and teacher.  He never was a star, never famous outside of a limited circle of people who appreciated the music he found and played and kept alive when others lost interest.  He knew that his musical niche was a narrow one, and that he'd never reach "mass appeal" as long as he stayed in it.  He didn't seem to care.  Maybe he did; maybe he regretted taking that path.  But I'm deeply glad that he took it.

I'm sure that White -- and Springsteen, and Plant, and Mellencamp, and many others -- have heard and appreciated "roots" music, whatever the hell that is, and may well incorporate some if it into their future recordings and performances.  Good for them.  I hope that some who hear them, may be impelled to listen to the people to whom these performers have listened, and learn to appreciate Sheila Kay Adams and Mike Seeger -- or even more, Dock Boggs, Clarence Ashley, Almeda Riddle, Nimrod Workman, Hobart Smith, Etta Baker, and all the other wonderful traditional musicians whose music is still accessible.

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## catmandu2

Thanks Allen.

No argument from me.  :Wink: 

Yes, the "Songcatcher" movie was a bit strange.  But the music is great--and had those poignant moments.  Some movies are like that...I suppose it's so with all things--it pays to be discerning.

My own journey started with Zepplin 35 years ago, then bluegrass...wound through Bert Jansch...and eventually back to the "old" stuff, with a whole helluva lot of stops in between -- banjo (and jazz, but that's another story) being the main catalyst.  The more one educates one's self about music, the further back (and into other cultures) one tends to go, of course.

It's all music--it all has some value...but enough with that.

I've heard that about M. Seeger.  I've learned quite a bit of music from that feller.

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## Talabardio

_<Inflammatory post removed by Moderator>_

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## Ted Eschliman

Regretfully, we have a couple individuals that insist on contaminating this thread with their public bickering.

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