# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  Ebay Horsepucky

## Gary Hedrick

Haven't been posting much recently but this one just got my "goat" (as we say in southern Indiana)

Original????   Hmmm really?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1920s-Gibson...kAAOSwjMJXBuwm

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## mrmando

Yeah. Back, sides and riser block refinished; looks like the back's been off; tailpiece and pickguard are replacements. 

I notified the seller, of course, but haven't heard anything back.

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

OH my gosh.. I did a double take when I saw how the pickguard was affixed to the top.. Someone did a number on this one.  

Picture here for posterity:

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## Mark Wilson

> OH my gosh.. I did a double take when I saw how the pickguard was affixed to the top.. Someone did a number on this one.  
> 
> Picture here for posterity:


did seller delete this photo?  I don't see this one in ad

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## Tobin

I see that photo still.  3rd from the bottom.

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## Gary Hedrick

and don't forget  A2 in one place and A3 in another....and the all the million other things that are just not "right"....

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## Timbofood

"That Ain't Right" as they say in some circles.
Pretty far from what I would call "Original" indeed.

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## T.D.Nydn

There is a lot that isnt quite right, the fingerboard looks strange, really black,, the logo looks like it was silk screened,,

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## pops1

There are a lot more pic's on Reverb, was going to email about the discrepancies this morning and decided not to. Glad to see I am not the only one upset by such shenanigans.

Just scrolled farther down and the same pic's are there too. Inlay does look to be not an inlay and action looks high.

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## plinkey

That thing is as fake as a three dollar bill.

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## Bill Kammerzell

> There are a lot more pic's on Reverb, was going to email about the discrepancies this morning and decided not to. Glad to see I am not the only one upset by such shenanigans.
> 
> Just scrolled farther down and the same pic's are there too. Inlay does look to be not an inlay and action looks high.


Action does look high. Not an illusion either. I looked at a shot of a mandolin I have for auction on line, and in the same angle shot mine looked fine. This can be easily fixed, however, whoever set the bridge, really did not center the strings on the finger board. At least not the way, I like them set.

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## mrmando

> That thing is as fake as a three dollar bill.


I don't think it is fake. I think it is a real snakehead that started life with a plain headstock and someone added "The Gibson" along with the refinish and the other "improvements." Yes, the action looks high.

Likely an A or A1; probably not really an A2 and certainly not an A3. There are no snakehead A3s AFAIK.

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Gary Hedrick, 

Jeff Mando

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## Petrus

This is probably another good reason for quasi-noobs like myself to stay away from the high end vintage market.  I couldn't see anything wrong with the instrument based on the photographs, other than the weirdly high pick guard.

I don't think the point is made clearly enough for newcomers to the mandolin world that purchasing a vintage Gibson in the four-figure bracket is _not_ a no-brainer and requires substantial advance research and some expertise.  I'm as guilty as anyone of drooling over great looking listings while forgetting this.  Luckily, I've only lost a few hundred dollars over the past few years unknowingly buying problem instruments.

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David Rambo

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## pops1

I emailed them thru reverb, see if I get a response.

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## Mark Wilson

> I see that photo still.  3rd from the bottom.


thx - I was viewing from work (on my only 5 min break of the day) and forgot IT blocks cloud hosted images

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## LongBlackVeil

It doesn't look fake, just misrepresented. Pretty common. It's had some work done for sure, but I bet it still sounds good. This is a guitar store and I'm betting they don't know much about mandolins. In the Internet age there's no excuse for a dealer not doing some research, but I'm not assuming they have bad intentions.

I don't think that screw in the pick guard is actually going INTO the top. I believe it's just sitting on top of it holding the pick guard up. Which will leave a mark when you take it off, no big deal though

It could probably be a good deal at a much lower price

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## Bill Kammerzell

"In the Internet age there's no excuse for a dealer not doing some research...."

Yes. I agree. When I sell anything, I try and represent it with as much information as I possibly can. With the internet that is possible, especially with a product like a Gibson mandolin. I can only speculate as to intent.

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## Gary Hedrick

Here is the deal with this one.....a store that goes to the effort to quote "The Mandolin Cafe"....presents all sorts of historical info...takes great pictures....and then describes the instrument as original. 

I'd be ok if they pointed out all or even some of the offending issues but no.....so we have a totally stripped off finish (with the exception of the neck)....finish that looks like they used a brush on the back....pieces that don't come close to matching....back off of it (likely)......it's a kinda of a Frankenstein snakehead....  It is likely worth the price.....may sound fine but to hold that up and say " Hey boys and girls this is an original instrument" is just a joke.  Guitar people or not....it doesn't take much brains to see all of the crap that has been done to this formally great instrument.

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## Jeff Mando

Even a guitar shop should be able to spot a refinished instrument and should represent it as such.

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Tom Sanderson

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## mrmando

> It is likely worth the price...


Nah, maybe $1250–1500 at best.

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## pops1

He responded with "Oh my bad, dont know much about these. I am a guitar guy."

Not really impressive for someone selling something thru a store they own.

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## Bill Kammerzell

> He responded with "Oh my bad, dont know much about these. I am a guitar guy."
> 
> Not really impressive for someone selling something thru a store they own.


Selling something for nearly $2,000.00 dollars.

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## Steve Ostrander

> OH my gosh.. I did a double take when I saw how the pickguard was affixed to the top.. Someone did a number on this one.


That way the pick guard can vibrate in unison with the top and increase the volume......not.....

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## multidon

I love the pickguard mounting! That screw would make it adjustable, right? And it makes so much more sense than drilling an ugly hole in the side to mount one of those brackets!  :Wink:

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## Gary Hedrick

> Nah, maybe $1250–1500 at best.


Yeah you're right in today's world.....ain't much there and as you said in your earlier post..likely started as an A1 and had the "enhancements" bolted on....

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## Jeff Mando

The other factor in pricing is that fewer people want a beater at any price.  Or, to say it another way, everybody wants a nice, clean original mandolin, don't they?   A beater MAY be worth half of a nice one, but there are fewer folks who want one.  I sort of use the "Godfather" rule of thumb when considering an unattractive instrument -- it has to priced at an "offer I can't refuse" -- providing it sounds good to me in the first place.  For me, $1250 is WAY too much......but if it were $500, then I would HAVE to buy it.

I'm sure that's what happened here.  Somebody brought it into the guy's shop, he probably said, "why would I want to buy such a dog?", then the seller says, "I only want $500 for it"  and he buys it.  At least that has been my experience working used/vintage/retail.  You really end up buying a bunch of stuff you wouldn't, if not for price.

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## LongBlackVeil

> The other factor in pricing is that fewer people want a beater at any price.  Or, to say it another way, everybody wants a nice, clean original mandolin, don't they?   A beater MAY be worth half of a nice one, but there are fewer folks who want one.  I sort of use the "Godfather" rule of thumb when considering an unattractive instrument -- it has to priced at an "offer I can't refuse" -- providing it sounds good to me in the first place.  For me, $1250 is WAY too much......but if it were $500, then I would HAVE to buy it.
> 
> I'm sure that's what happened here.  Somebody brought it into the guy's shop, he probably said, "why would I want to buy such a dog?", then the seller says, "I only want $500 for it"  and he buys it.  At least that has been my experience working used/vintage/retail.  You really end up buying a bunch of stuff you wouldn't, if not for price.


Count me as someone who doesn't care about "clean" and "original" I'm no collector. I think there are a lot out there like me. But we know that non-originality and dings bring the price down, and we're fine with that  :Wink: 

I bet that mandolin sounds great, and if I saw it in person played it and liked it, I'd buy it without question, but not at that price

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## HonketyHank

The same seller has a Collings MT2 on offer for a seemingly very attractive price. Pix look good. Item description mentions two "minor indents". In response to a query, seller says one indent is on the back and one is near the bridge. Look carefully for me and see if you see what I think I see on subsequent close scrutiny: most of the treble side of the back is squished in. I can't really tell about the the top but "near the bridge" sounds like it could be a collapsed top (?). Maybe I am imagining things. But I don't think we are talking about cosmetic defects, else we would be able to see them more clearly in the photos. The listing is here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/272204214349...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT. Set me straight if need be.

This plus the Gibson listing plus a negative feedback about misleading photos on a prior listing combine to make me give this 'deal' a pass despite my initial interest. I would need to have the instrument in my hands before giving it further consideration.

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## LongBlackVeil

> The same seller has a Collings MT2 on offer for a seemingly very attractive price. Pix look good. Item description mentions two "minor indents". In response to a query, seller says one indent is on the back and one is near the bridge. Look carefully for me and see if you see what I think I see on subsequent close scrutiny: most of the treble side of the back is squished in. I can't really tell about the the top but "near the bridge" sounds like it could be a collapsed top (?). Maybe I am imagining things. But I don't think we are talking about cosmetic defects, else we would be able to see them more clearly in the photos. The listing is here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/272204214349...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT. Set me straight if need be.
> 
> This plus the Gibson listing plus a negative feedback about misleading photos on a prior listing combine to make me give this 'deal' a pass despite my initial interest. I would need to have the instrument in my hands before giving it further consideration.


Eh I think what you're seeing on the back is a reflection. Because it's not there in other photos. The indention in the bridge is just where the bridge was moved to correct intonation. It does look like a good deal, though, since this is not a real mandolin dealer, I wouldn't expect it to be setup. Then again, many actual mandolin shops don't setup their used instruments either

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## pops1

Hank, did you buy the Collings? it was on reverb too and I see the listing is ended as it is no longer available.

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## Tobin

> He responded with "Oh my bad, dont know much about these. I am a guitar guy."
> 
> Not really impressive for someone selling something thru a store they own.


That seems to be the standard excuse for misrepresenting mandolins.  People just shrug and say "I'm a guitar guy" as if it justifies obvious attempts to incorrectly describe the condition, history, rarity, or value of a mandolin.  This seller obviously spent a lot of time writing up that lengthy description with quotes from internet research, and it's a bit disingenuous to then turn around and say, "well gosh darn, I just don't know much about what I'm selling."

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Gary Hedrick, 

Timbofood

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## Jeff Mando

> That seems to be the standard excuse for misrepresenting mandolins.  People just shrug and say "I'm a guitar guy" as if it justifies obvious attempts to incorrectly describe the condition, history, rarity, or value of a mandolin.  This seller obviously spent a lot of time writing up that lengthy description with quotes from internet research, and it's a bit disingenuous to then turn around and say, "well gosh darn, I just don't know much about what I'm selling."


There is a lot of truth to what you are saying.  My experience working at a vintage guitar shop is that we didn't get many mandolin players at all, BUT we got a lot of guitar players who wanted to dabble with getting their first mandolin and I think that accounts for the "casualness" of the seller's approach to selling it.  Because they can sell it to a guitar player who is not as picky as a more informed buyer might be, in other words, a real mandolin player.  I noticed the members on this forum are much more demanding because the mandolin is their primary instrument.  If a shop has 200 vintage guitars and three mandolins, I think the "shrug your shoulders and I say don't know much about these" actually works as a sales technique -- sorry to say.

I think that is an approach and represents a certain market.  Just as, conversely, there is a market for vintage "Bluegrass guitars" that exists without regard for what things actually go for in the vintage market.  I've seen sellers at guitar shows sell old D-18's for $5-10K more than "what they normally go for" because, "it's a cannon", or "just chord it", or "so and so owned this one when he played with so and so.........."

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## Timbofood

It has been a very long time since I worked in an acoustic music store but, the "I'm just a guitar guy" excuse really winds my clock! There is no reason in this day and age with the resources available (especially here) for that excuse to carry any weight. The members of this site represent such an vast knowledge of mandolin history, builders, finish, ad nauseum that, a very short photo and question like "What is this?" Would garner enough information as to accurately identify the instrument in question.
"My bad, Indeed!"
End rant.

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Gary Hedrick

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## HonketyHank

> Hank, did you buy the Collings? it was on reverb too and I see the listing is ended as it is no longer available.


No, I didn't. It made me nervous.

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