# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  A-Style vs F-Style - Is there a sound difference?

## WolfMoon

Hello All,

I have been playing guitar as a hobby for 20+ years and I have always had an interest in learning to play mandolin & banjo. I grew up seeing the F-style mandolin most of the time but I noticed that most of the lower priced models are the A-style. I was wondering what the differences are between the two. I prefer the look of the F-style, but I would have no problem buying an A-style to start off with if it could save me a little bit of money.

Also, I have noticed that the guitar makers I am familiar with, Gibson, Epiphone, Fender, Washburn, Ibanez & Dean, all make mandolins. Are there any brands out there that strictly make quality mandolins but a newbie such as myself not know about. I've heard good things about Kentucky from various reputable sources, but as with anyone trying to sell a product, if you read it's description they are going to say it is one of the best and so on. 

Thanks for any help you may be able to give!  :Mandosmiley:

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## sunburst

I can't find them, but there have been many threads on this very topic. When search-guru Mike gets here he'll probably link to them.
Basically, no, there is no difference in sound attributable to the points and scrolls.

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## sgarrity

What John said!

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## Steve Ostrander

You will save some money and get a better value in an A style. It takes a lot of extra work to carve and finish that scroll.

If you post what your budget is, you will probably get more detailed advice here.

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## JEStanek

The placebo effect makes those who like F styles think they sound better.  The opposite effect holds for fans of the A style.  If there are differences in sound, and these differences in sound are different than those between mandolins made out of similar woods and similar construction by the same builder, I would say the differences in sound between body shape would be very subtle IF at all.

Jamie

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## Willie Poole

Lets face it, there aren`t to many F`s or A`s that sound like other F`s or A`s made by the same builder...Woods vary and its not likely that wood from the same tree would be used on all F`s and A`s...This is a hard one to answer honestly....I`ve seen A`s that would blow away a particular F and I`ve seen it the other way around.....Willie

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## Hans

I always look forward to these questions... :Whistling: 
 :Popcorn: 
You might go to my website and listen to the F5C and A5C clips...

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## sgarrity

Hans, don't you build your A- and F-styles slightly different??  I seem to remember a discussion of you using different woods for the blocks?  Based on the sound clips, the F5C sounds stronger especially in the bass.  The A5C seems to lean more toward the treble side of things.  At least that's what my laptop speakers and clogged up ears tell me!    :Grin: 

You have always maintained that your A- and F-styles sounded different.  And you've played more of them than anyone else so I would tend to agree with you!!  But on the whole I think the sound of both styles is similar enough that the difference could never be narrowed down to the body shape.

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## mandroid

W-M, Ya Gotta get one of each,  to really Know.
But to  differentiate them more, the A has to be  like  .. a short neck Oval sound hole, from the teens or 20's,
 and the F5 has to be  recent, from a  living  Luthier.

Long neck F hole  A5 and F5 are , yup,  darn close, If they are of equal workmanship and materials .

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## Chris Biorkman

IMO, there is no difference. I had a Kimble A right before I bought my Kimble F, and I can't tell a difference at all. That said, I prefer the looks of a nice F.

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## Rob Gerety

In my opinion, no - no difference.  That said, I prefer the appearance of a nice A.

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## WolfMoon

Thanks everyone, all of your post have been more than helpful. I think I am going to try the Kentucky KM-150 beginners package from folkmusician.com, it seems like a great price for the package. Then eventually I will get an F style when I am a seasoned player. I wish they had forums like these back when I started playing guitar.

Thanks again everyone,
Chris aka WolfMoon  :Popcorn:

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## WolfMoon

Oh yeah, Chris, my wifes maiden name is Bjorkman and Rob, my wife & I are moving to Vermont in the spring.

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## JeffD

> Lets face it, there aren`t to many F`s or A`s that sound like other F`s or A`s made by the same builder...Woods vary and its not likely that wood from the same tree would be used on all F`s and A`s...This is a hard one to answer honestly....I`ve seen A`s that would blow away a particular F and I`ve seen it the other way around.....Willie


In other words, the difference between individual mandolins is going to be bigger than the difference between any given A and any given F. The difference is belowthe noise level.

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## Rob Gerety

> my wife & I are moving to Vermont in the spring.


Just in time for mud season. Where in Vermont are you going to land?

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## WolfMoon

> Just in time for mud season. Where in Vermont are you going to land?


Oh yes, we were told all about mud season when we were up this summer visiting her family. We're more than likely going to end up in Burlington or somewhere close by it.

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## John Kinn

The more I listen to the Brentrup F and A , the harder I find it to distinguish them...

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## Hans

Shaun, the F5C's and A5C's all have mahogany blocks. 
John, the difference is subtile, but can be heard. I feel that the A's are a bit more "refined" in the trebles, while the F's just have more power. I don't think it's the shape so much as the mass of the extra blocks and the mass of the scrolls.

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## un5trung

I read someone else in the Mandolin Cafe write something to the effect of "beware of scroll envy."  Scroll envy -- that's a great one, I love it!  I have two a-styles, oval and d-hole, and love them both.  That being said I'm on the lookout for an f-style myself, but am in no hurry.  I like the idea of the f-style because it allows the user to play further up the neck, and of course it really does sound different.  I'd respectfully disagree with the person whe wrote that the difference in sound is due to the placebo effect.

For what it's worth my advice is simple:  find a store that has a selection of both, play them all and buy the one that sounds best regardless of the shape.

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## allenhopkins

The inspiration that hit Orville G to build a mandolin in the F-shape, has impacted a century of mandolin players and builders.  Whatever the acoustic advantage, disadvantage or total irrelevance of the F-style silhouette, no one can deny its hold on the imagination.

What interests me is that even builders who don't usually build F-styles, like Breedlove, pay homage to the "F look" with asymmetrical bodies -- a little block where the scroll would be, a small point on the other side.  As I've said, it's as if the '57 DeSoto had become the icon of automotive design, and cars with fins were still considered superior.

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## woodwizard

I would say slight...We could talk more on the difference (in sound) of oval holes vs f-holes then the sound difference in an A model and F models. IMHO

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## theCOOP

> I don't think it's the shape so much as the mass of the extra blocks and the mass of the scrolls.


That's what I would've suggested. That is the extra mass of solid wood at the scroll, if anything, that changes the sound charactoristics.

It would be acting as a Mass Damper. Mass Dampers are also used (among other places) in automobiles to reduce road noise and vibrations from the road.

As example. There is a large heavy weight in the dead centre of mt steering wheel. There is another very large chunk of luminum as part of my centre console as well as a large chunch of iron bolted to me front motormount. This one is there to absorb the vibrations from  the engine and also helps to minimise sheet metal fatigue on the bottom of the radiator core support.

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## sunburst

From what i understand, the "mass dampers" that car manufacturers use work this way, more or less:

A car is designed and prototyped then taken for test drives. If there is unacceptable vibration somewhere, the maker may decide to add a weight to damp the vibration. The reason it works is because the extra mass lowers the resonant frequency of the component of the car. 
Now a little background on that; A car part will have a resonant frequency, think of a tire slightly out of balance. As you speed up, the tire will start to vibrate through some speed range, but faster than that speed range the frequency becomes too fast for the mass of the tire (and wheel) so the vibration smooths out. The vibrations are damped by the mass of the tire/wheel being too great for the frequency of the 'input'. So, if there is a vibration in a drive train, adding mass to the transmission (for example) can smooth it out by raising the mass of the drive train and lowering it's resonant frequency. (Those of us who are old enough to have driven cars and trucks with heavy steel wheels and large bias ply tires will remember that the tires tended to stay balanced better than the lighter aluminum alloy wheels with lower profile radial tires of today. The much higher mass of my F250's wheel/tires makes them considerably easier to balance than the much lighter alloy wheels on my car.)

The vibrations that convert string energy to sound in mandolins are primarily the top, back, and air modes. Dave Cohen has found that the scroll is not involved significantly in those modes, so the extra mass of the scroll doesn't make much difference in those "important" modes.
The mass of the scroll might affect the frequency of the bending mode of the whole mandolin, though it's mass is more or less centered so the effect might be limited by that positioning.

Now, mass added to the transmission of a car cannot be expected to have much effect on a tire vibration, and in a similar way the mass of the scroll added to the rim of a mandolin cannot be expected to have much effect on the top, back, and air modes that are the primary producers of sound. I'm not saying that the mass of the scroll has no effect at all, but I think the analogy to automobile "mass dampers" could be misleading to folks trying to understand how mandolins work and what effects things like scrolls have.

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## theCOOP

Wow. I thought it was a reasonable comparision without being too technical. My bad and my sincerest apologies.

Wow.

Coop

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## JEStanek

And you guys thought we only learned about finishes, tuners, and tailpieces around here.  The builders who contribute here have so much to teach us...  I'm thankful for it every time.

Jamie

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## Mike Bunting

> Wow. I thought it was a reasonable comparision without being too technical. My bad and my sincerest apologies.
> 
> Wow.
> 
> Coop


Why do you sound so defensive, it was a calm, inoffensive rebuttal of your theory, that's all.

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## Mike Bunting

double post

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## mandroid

I would think the thinned ring around the soundboard, the recurve,  would also de couple the top from the sides and the extra pointy a bits too, 

Tonegard users myself included do notice the longer waves to ring the back, a component of which
is proximity , making the rim wider would move the back away from the top and change that a bit.. 

Whether perceptibly, is another issue..

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## hank

I could while away the hours, conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain.
And my head I'd be scratchin' while
my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a scroll.
I'd unravel every riddle for any individ'le,
In trouble or in pain.
With the thoughts you'll be thinkin'
you could be another Lincoln
If you only had a scroll.
Oh, I could tell you why The ocean's near the shore.
I could think of things I never thunk before.
And then I'd sit, and think some more.
I would not be just a nothin' my head all full of stuffin'
My heart all full of pain.
I would dance and be merry, life would be a ding-a-derry,
If I only had a scroll.

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## theCOOP

> Why do you sound so defensive, it was a calm, inoffensive rebuttal of your theory, that's all.


it's all good. I should just stick with what I know.

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## bassthumper

thank ya'll...this novice is learning that along with such obvious differences as material, F vs Oval hole,and finish that effect the tone and presentation of an individual instrument, the more subtle and sometimes hard to see differences used by the luthier has far more impact than F vs A. 

how these variables are used, and the sound that the person seeking as their perception of the optimum instrument have more importance than prescence or abscence of the scroll. 

and if the difference in tone between braided leather straps as opposed to nylon straps on  the scroll that may or not be there exists , i have'nt been able to distinguish that either.

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## JeffD

> Whether perceptibly, is another issue..


 :Laughing: 

Just struck me as funny. Perceptibility is the only issue. 

And to add to the noise, I am convinced that the great builders can make an instrument sound pretty much how they want - i.e. they can make an A that sounds more like and F and and F style that sounds every bit as good as an A. What ever differences there might be due only to the style can be more than corrected for by the luthier.

 :Mandosmiley:

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## Hans

> it's all good. I should just stick with what I know.


Yea, me too...and L. Smart...
Yer all right, they sound the same! Don't buy an F, I'd rather make A's anyway.
 :Laughing:

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## woodwizard

Got one of each just so I don't miss out on anything ...  :Wink:   :Mandosmiley:

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## allenhopkins

Funny, when I was in school, I always tried to get A's and avoid F's.  Now that I play the mandolin, I find F's are the most desired, A's considered somewhat "lesser," at least in some quarters.

Ain't life peculiar?

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## Rob Gerety

[QUOTE=allenhopkins;736558]Now that I play the mandolin, I find F's are the most desired, A's considered somewhat "lesser," at least in some quarters.[QUOTE]

Not sure what quarters you are referring to - but I do know that I've never encountered those quarters.  I do know some folks that look down their noses at F Style mandos.  Silly discussion really. Don't you think? :Sleepy:

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## AlanN

Then why continue it?

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## Dennis Ladd

So to make this thread go on even longer, a question to the builders:

When a friend picked out a Kentucky KM-1000 for me two and an arf decades ago, he was told that the hollow scroll on the F model added tone and volume to the bass. As opposed to scrolls that were solid or to A models that had no scroll.

When anyone has asked me what that instrument was I was playing, I made that part of the story.

Is alla that urban legend or is there some truth to it?

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## sunburst

There's no evidence that the scroll, hollow or otherwise, adds "tone" or volume (loudness) or bass. There actually is evidence that the space inside the hollow scroll does basically nothing for the air modes inside the mandolin. 
There is so much "stuff" that has been said and written about what things like scrolls do for the sound of instruments, with no evidence to back it up, that people believe and repeat simply because someone who seems credible said it, or worse, they _read_ it somewhere. People have hunches about how things work without taking the time to _learn_ how things work, and seem to have no problem with stating their hunches as fact. Anecdotes are taken as solid evidence and so forth.
At least half of my conversations about mandolins have at least one episode of me having to refute something someone believes about scrolls, tailpieces, nuts, wood species, arch shape, graduation, _something_ that they've been told or read that is not true.

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## allenhopkins

> Not sure what quarters you are referring to - but I do know that I've never encountered those quarters...


Referring to the significant number of posts from players saying they "learned on an A-style, and are going to 'upgrade' to an F-style" or some such.  The fact that A-styles are less expensive as a rule, and that most of the really low-end beginner instruments are A-styles, I think leads some people to consider them as a lower stratum of mandolins.  Which is not inherently true, of course.

The fact that a majority of top-rank pro players seem to have F-style mandolins, and the fact that the top-end mandolins discussed here are mostly F-styles, leads people to create a hierarchy of body styles, with "F" being better than "A."  For no real *musical* reason.  I have F-styles and A-styles and a bunch of oddities as well.  See no overall reason to rank F's over A's.  But the distinction persists, and I'd be surprised if Rob G has never encountered people who think that F's are better than A's just because they're shaped differently.

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## red7flag

I think there is more than a "placebo" effect.  I think for what ever reason there is a slight, emphasize slight increase in complexity and overtones in an F.  This is not always a good thing however.  It is not a quality that I look for playing Celtic for example.  Is it worth the price difference?  Only the buyer can decide that.  I have 2 F models, which I play grass and 2 (including CBOMS) that are A styles and 1 guitar shaped (that is a different sound all together).  I know I am the minority on this thread, but that has been my experience.  I compared the Ellis A and Ellis F at IBMA.  Now that is a loud raucous room and this was just one AB from just two instruments.  But to my ear the f was slightly fuller.  I will say this too, that I would love to have that A to compliment my F.  
Tony

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## foldedpath

> The fact that a majority of top-rank pro players seem to have F-style mandolins, and the fact that the top-end mandolins discussed here are mostly F-styles, leads people to create a hierarchy of body styles, with "F" being better than "A."  For no real *musical* reason.


That's true, but to the extent that we're talking about conversations here on the Cafe', I think it's more an indication of the larger number of Bluegrass players here, compared to other genres of music. The F-style doesn't have nearly the same status in Celtic, OldTime, or Blues circles as it does in Bluegrass. 

In the corner of the USA where I live, OldTime and Irish music is much more popular than Bluegrass. I'm usually the only one with an F-style in local jams and sessions. Part of that is being away from the big city and in an area where musicians are scraping by on low incomes and don't have much money to spend on instruments, but I still see quite a few collector-grade older guitars and mandolins. I would "fit in" better in local jams if I played an A style, preferably a 20's Gibson, if I cared about that sort of thing. Each different genre has its own unwritten rules and cultural expectations.

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## Rex Hart

Count me in the group that believes there is a difference in similarly built A and F style mando's. Not neccesarily better, just different.However, from my perspective, the F models seem to be better balanced while holding them than the A models.They just seem to ride better IMHO.

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## Rob Gerety

> That's true, but to the extent that we're talking about conversations here on the Cafe', I think it's more an indication of the larger number of Bluegrass players here, compared to other genres of music. The F-style doesn't have nearly the same status in Celtic, OldTime, or Blues circles as it does in Bluegrass.


This is my experience as well.

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## bassthumper

i thought the scroll was for pickin' up girls?

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## Mike Snyder

I suspect that there are many of us who, like foldedpath, play F5s at celtic and old-time pickins. I,ve never had a problem. Gotta hold back, though, if a more "delicate" mandolin is playing. The reality of it, to me, is that there are many old A mandos without much volume. Very nice in the parlour, very quiet at the loud sessiun. Hamlett, Hans, and sunburst are not building such wallflower A's.
I've certainly owned F's that I couldn't hear in a jam. There's too much variation in mandolins to answer the OP's question.

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## mtucker

playing, sitting, standing, aesthetics, all feedback you like or not .. tonal differences, maybe not so much. 

ovals - long scale vs short scale, f'board attached to soundboard or raised, maybe a different discussion.

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## Chuck Naill

Seems to me that the question should be is there a difference between f and oval hole mandolins or is that too obvious?  :Grin:

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## Mike Decker

Mtucker What a great post!!!

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## blindboy

I like the look of both F's and A's.  As a matter of fact I'm in the market for an A now.   That being said, I do think the F has a couple of advantages(if mentioned prior apologies up front).  1, a 'nice' easy place to wrap a strap around.  2, to me an F is easier to sit and play as you can rest the point on your leg without any slippage  :Smile: .  Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but my two cents...  However, I'm still looking into an Ellis A  :Smile:

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## JeffD

> I have 2 F models, which I play grass and 2 (including CBOMS) that are A styles and 1 guitar shaped (that is a different sound all together).  I know I am the minority on this thread, but that has been my experience.  I compared the Ellis A and Ellis F at IBMA.  Now that is a loud raucous room and this was just one AB from just two instruments.  But to my ear the f was slightly fuller.  I will say this too, that I would love to have that A to compliment my F.  
> Tony


I have perceived differences too. All the time. But can those differences be attributed to the scroll. I perceive differences between any two mandolins, both As or both Fs, and most of the time the differences are somewhat to very evident.

Its easy to hear a difference. 

I think it would take a lot of painstaking work, blind tests, statistical analysis, etc., to be able to attribute that difference to the scroll.

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## Norm Buck

wow... i just have to LOL at this point.... not saying that mass and damping et al have no bearing on mandolin technology, but whew, it boggles the mind! The reading I've done on the subject suggests that an A-style mandolin can have all of the "bluegrass" sound characteristics that are desired from F-style mandolins.

Norm

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## Norm Buck

> I could while away the hours, conferrin' with the flowers
> Consultin' with the rain.
> And my head I'd be scratchin' while
> my thoughts were busy hatchin'
> If I only had a scroll.
> I'd unravel every riddle for any individ'le,
> In trouble or in pain.
> With the thoughts you'll be thinkin'
> you could be another Lincoln
> ...


I love it hank

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## terzinator

I always figured F's sounded better because that's what Bill played.  :Smile: 

My feeling on the A's being not as accepted as F's in bluegrass circles is this: If you're not very good, then it doesn't matter which type you play. If you're really good, then it doesn't matter which type you play.

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## AlanN

Funny, just this morning I was listening to the Wizard Of Oz medley off Barry Mitterhoff's solo recording Silk City. That tune 'If I only Had A Brain' is part of it, with nifty little mando fills on Barry's F-style pre-war Gibson.

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## majorbanjo

There's a definitely a difference to me.....I like the looks of the F style better...so when I'm playing psychologically I'm more pleased with it....that's enough for me.......:-)

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## JeffD

> There's a definitely a difference to me.....I like the looks of the F style better...so when I'm playing psychologically I'm more pleased with it....that's enough for me.......:-)


That is a point.

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## JEStanek

> That is a point.


Nope that's two points a a bunch of scrolls!

Jamie

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## sunburst

Jamie, have you ever looked an F5 over from end to end and actually counted all the points and scrolls?  :Wink:

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## Kevin Briggs

Is there a difference? There shouldn't be, but there always seems to be.

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## JEStanek

> Jamie, have you ever looked an F5 over from end to end and actually counted all the points and scrolls?


John, I've fallen to playing two points and A styles.  I hope I'm right with 2 points and a Big Daddy scroll, a lil Mama scroll and a baby scroll on most Loar style F5s. Honestly, I might be mistaken, they sound the _same_ to me.  :Wink: 

Jamie

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## sunburst

Well, Jamie, if you build an F5 with binding everywhere you'll find that you have to miter the binding at two points on the body (front and back) and four points on the head stock. One scroll on the body (front and back) and two scrolls on the headstock...one of which comes to a point so that makes five points on the head stock!
These are the types of things many people overlook when they are pondering why Fs cost more than As (or guitars or...)

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## JEStanek

John, thanks for the perspective.  I hadn't thought of it from that point of view.  That's a lot of work.

Jamie

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