# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  Bill Monroe's guitar

## testore

Anyone have a picture of Bills guitar? I have a client who says that he grew up with Bill's granddaughter and she gave him Bill's Blueridge model Gibson guitar. Can it be true? I'm a bit skeptical.

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## allenhopkins

"Bill's guitar" -- meaning the one that he played on _Muleskinner Blues_ and often took into the studio  -- was a '40's vintage Martin D-28 "herringbone."  Neil Rosenberg writes in _Bill Monroe and the Blue Grass Boys: An Illustrated Discography_ (p.24):
_ Monroe's battered Martin D-28 guitar was used on most recording sessions from the late forties until 1965 when it was stolen from James Monroe's car in Nashville._

(Though I have heard suspicion cast on whether it was actually stolen, or perhaps sold surreptitiously...)

Monroe had many many instruments given to him, and I believe he gave some of them to friends and other musicians.  He may well have owned a Gibson Blue Ridge, and passed it on to a family member.  Like  the Ibanez mandolins discussed in another thread, these weren't identified with him, but the D-28 surely was; he had his guitarists record with it because he liked its sound.

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## GRW3

If you take a look at one of the pictures of the early Bluegrass Boys in "Can't You Hear Me Calling?" the guitar player is playing a Gibson Dreadnaught. As I recall the book indicates that Monroe would occassionaly provide good instruments to his newest accolytes. Being of Scottish extraction, I doubt he would 'give' them the instrument so maybe this was one of his band instruments. Besides the Gibson I've seen a Youtube vid where guitar player is playing a Guild. While Martin fanatics would like you to believe they are the only suitable guitar for Bluegrass, that rule apparently was not established by WSM himself.

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## earthsave

I vaguely remember reading that he bought Cleo Davis a Gibson when he signed up as the first incarnation of the Blue Grass Boys.

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## Gary Hedrick

by the way that Gibson guitar player in the "Can't You Hear me Callin' " is  more than just a Bluegrass Boy.....that's Charlie Monroe playing that Gibson guitar

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## Gary Hedrick

I will look around my music area but I know I have something with a picture of Bill from the 30's playing a J 45 I think.....but it truly is one of the slope shoulder models....I'm sure a Tom Isenhour will have something showing him playing a Gibson guitar

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## GRW3

> by the way that Gibson guitar player in the "Can't You Hear me Callin' " is  more than just a Bluegrass Boy.....that's Charlie Monroe playing that Gibson guitar


Yes there's a picture of Bill and Charlie but I'm talking about a picture of the Blue Grass Boys. Since they were not formed until Bill and Charlie split it wouldn't be Charlie.

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...While Martin fanatics would like you to believe they are the only suitable guitar for Bluegrass, that rule apparently was not established by WSM himself.


I'm sure WSM didn't establish the Gibson banjo as the standard but it became one. I'm sure the same thing happened with the Martins. When you figure that just about every Bluegrass band has someone playing a Martin guitar or a copy thereof, a Gibson banjo or a copy thereof, and a Gibson mandolin or a copy thereof you kind of have to assume those are standards. How many bluegrass bands have people playing a Embergher mandolin, a Dyer Harp guitar and a Fairbanks White Laydie banjo? Probably none, but it would be interesting to see. I'll also note that WSM didn't start out playing an F5. Standards in Bluegrass evolved over time and obviously and weren't set automatically at the start.

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## allenhopkins

Well, I'm far from a "Martin fanatic," and there are many other excellent guitars, both vintage and new, that are quite suitable for bluegrass.

The point I tried to make is that Bill Monroe had a D-28 "herringbone" model that he had his guitarists play in the studio for two decades, until it disappeared.  He undoubtedly owned a variety of other instruments, and may well have owned a Gibson Blue Ridge and given it to a relative.  But if you ask about "Bill Monroe's guitar," the D-28 is what comes to mind.

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Hudmister

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## Gary Hedrick

I see the picture you mean George.....or at least I think you mean the one with Cleo Davis, the first replacement of Charlie.......I suppose that is a Gibson....little hard for me to tell

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## f5loar

There is an album cover of Monroe in front of a mic in a studio in color holding a late 30's Blonde Top J-35.  Don't mean it was his though. 
If Monroe had a Gibson BlueRidge model (first year was 1968) I doubt he bought it so maybe someone gave it to him.  I've not seen photos of him with one.

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## Fretbear

The Gibson company has never shined sonically (in my opinion) in the field of the larger-bodied guitar. Charlie Monroe was getting the first, and up until then, the best bluegrass sound on his medium-sized Gibson, but for the most part, the bigger the Gibsons became, the futher away they got from what was needed in a bluegrass guitar. I believe the only guitar that was ever bigger than the Gibson J-200 jumbo was a one-off called the "Big Boy" by the Larson Brothers that looked like someone had strung-up a kitchen table. I fully understand why WSM would have made the decision to carry his own Martin guitar. First, out of hundreds of guitars of any brand, that particular one was probably superior for delivering what he wanted to hear, and that was something which could otherwise not be counted on, no matter how good his guitar at any given time happened to be. The second was it made switching out his guitar players so easy and efficacious; they didn't even need to own a good instrument, as indeed, Cleo Davis did not. It would have also exerted a subtle pressure upon the inductee that it was his boss who actually owned his guitar, and by tranference, a little bit of him as well. Anyone who would say there was no possiblity of that has not studied their Monrology. The third was it would be at the ready for any recording that needed to be done. With space as tight as it was in and on his early stretch "flex" limo, as described by Jimmy Martin, where they slept sitting upright with their Stetsons on to keep them from being crushed, it would be interesting to know if any given guitarist's own instrument was even allowed along for the ride.

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## allenhopkins

> I believe the only guitar that was ever bigger than the Gibson J-200 jumbo was a one-off called the "Big Boy" by the Larson Brothers that looked like someone had strung-up a kitchen table.


Not quite; check this one out (scroll down for the six-string model).

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## Darryl Wolfe

I fully agree with the concept of "Bills Guitar" being the Martin D-28 played by many of his guitarists.  Although Allen may be correct stating '40's, I believe the guitar to be a '30's model.  Myself and others have had many discussions on this subject and wonder if the community can establish any facts.  It is said to have disappeared in the later '60's timeframe.

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## earthsave

> I vaguely remember reading that he bought Cleo Davis a Gibson when he signed up as the first incarnation of the Blue Grass Boys.



Here's a pic of Cleo with what looks like a Gibson headstock. 
http://doodah.net/bgb/bgb39.html

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## f5loar

That would be the one I was talking about Monroe holding in photo in studio.
A late 30's J35 blonde top.  Blondes were special order back then.  So one would sumize he did own that one and Cleo used it.  So if that is so maybe he didn't have the prewar D28 during this time.  I think it's a late 30's D28 too and he probably bought it used at the time. Monroe like them used vintage instruments too! :Wink:

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## Bernie Daniel

> Fretbear: The Gibson company has never shined sonically (in my opinion) in the field of the larger-bodied guitar. Charlie Monroe was getting the first, and up until then, the best bluegrass sound on his medium-sized Gibson, but for the most part, the bigger the Gibsons became, the futher away they got from what was needed in a bluegrass guitar.


Scott what about the Advanced Jumbos?  Gibson made about 200 or them between 1935 and 1940 and if you can find of those original ones in even mediocre condition today expect to pay more than $30K -- they were just that good.  I agee that the J-200, a super country guitar, is not "pungent" enough for BG.

That said you can't say much bad about most Martin guitars they deserve the reputation they have -- I made a huge mistake selling an early '60's D-28 years ago.

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## Bernie Daniel

> earthsave: Here's a pic of Cleo with what looks like a Gibson headstock.


Definately a Gibson Jumbo  like maybe a J-35 (or early J-45)?  Prob. a J-35 because the J-45's were sunbursts weren't they?

And I guess that is Monroe's F-7?

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## f5loar

J45s(sunburst) and J50's(natural tops) are semi post war models that started in late 1942 so with the prewar script and the style pickguard in that photo it is a J35 Natural late 30's.  AJ is what Charlie Monroe had in the mid30's.  It was a rosewood guitar and are very sought after today by collectors.  That would be the mid 30's F7.

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## Bernie Daniel

> f5loar:the style pickguard in that photo it is a J35 Natural late 30's. AJ is what Charlie Monroe had in the mid30's. It was a rosewood guitar and are very sought after today by collectors. That would be the mid 30's F7.


Cool -- you answered all the questions -- for some reason I did not see your post or I would not have commented on the pic.   

Did not know that Charlie Monroe had an Advanced Jumbo -- awesome guitars.  

Even the new re-issues (the ones built in the custom shop not the standard issue) are wonderful guitars for the money.

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## Red Henry

> I fully agree with the concept of "Bills Guitar" being the Martin D-28 played by many of his guitarists.  Although Allen may be correct stating '40's, I believe the guitar to be a '30's model.  Myself and others have had many discussions on this subject and wonder if the community can establish any facts.  It is said to have disappeared in the later '60's timeframe.



Right. I believe it's a '30s D-28, judging from the "advanced-position" top brace just visible through the soundhole in one of the photos. I've heard that this was stolen from James's car in the '60s.

Red

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## Rroyd

:Smile: Maybe Monroe's D28 ended up in the same hands as his other Loar, and they're both stashed away in the same closet.

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## Red Henry

> Maybe Monroe's D28 ended up in the same hands as his other Loar, and they're both stashed away in the same closet.


That's definitely a possibility! 

Red

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## allenhopkins

> Although Allen may be correct stating '40's, I believe the guitar to be a '30's model.


I have no special knowledge or expertise in dating Monroe's D-28.  I was going by a picture caption in Neil Rosenberg's _Bill Monroe and the Blue Grass Boys; An Illustrated Discography,_ stating "Bill Monroe, c. 1940, at the WSM microphone with a new Martin D-28 'herringbone' decorated guitar."

I believe this is the same photo to which Red H refers, since one of the X-braces is indeed visible through the soundhole.  If this dates the instrument to the '30's, I gladly defer to those who are able to make the identification.

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## evanreilly

I heard that the D-28 was boosted out of the car in Ohio sometime when James William and Peter Rowan were under the influence of being too far out on that limb, or some such.  Probably left the car door open!

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## mando-tech

> I will look around my music area but I know I have something with a picture of Bill from the 30's playing a J 45 I think.....but it truly is one of the slope shoulder models....I'm sure a Tom Isenhour will have something showing him playing a Gibson guitar


The album cover that I have is Bill holding, not a J-45, but rather, a Gibson J-50 in front of the WSM microphone, -remember a J-45 is dark, while the J-50 is natural color !

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## f5loar

pretty sure the D28 is a wide neck making it after 1934 and before mid 1939.  That would explain the forward bracing too.  My guess is he got it around 1939 after leaving Charlie in 1938.  And it could have been bought used too as some seem to think it was a 1936.  Bill Monroe was not afraid of buying good used quality instruments!  While Charlie was more of brand new type buyer.  And I'd have to go back and look but seems I recall it was not a J50 but a J35 natural top based on the pickguard. He may have borrowed Cleo Davis's guitar for that photo as Monroe like to kick off Muleskinner back then and Cleo/Clyde Moody, etc would play his mandolin for that one song.

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## Zissou Intern

It has been at least a dozen years since I read the book, but I seem to remember a picture in _Can't You Hear Me Callin'?_ showing Bill with the original band and a Gibson slope shoulder. (I am not sure if it was short-lived Kentuckians in Little Rock or the original Blue Grass Boys in Atlanta.) It was said that Bill had purchased the new axe for the guitar player (Cleo Davis?). I am pretty sure it was a Gibson AJ with a natural top, as it had the distinctive AJ position markers on the fretboard. 

Wonder whatever happened to that guitar 75 years later.

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## Jeff Mando

I recall Howlin' Wolf kept a Fender Precision bass around because his players kept pawning theirs.

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## f5loar

Monroe also kept a 50's Vega banjo just in case he hired a boy with no banjo.  Yeah it could be the AJ or J35.  I'd have to see the photo to determine which one.

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## Bernie Daniel

deleted post as the points were already made earlier!

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## Joe Spann

I knew Cleo Davis during the last few years of his life. Beginning about 1981 he was part of the "Florida Opry" located between Auburndale and Lakeland, Florida. I played banjo on his part of the show every Saturday night for about a year. He was still using the Gibson guitar that Monroe gave him at that time. To the best of my knowledge he still owned it at the time of his death in 1986.

Joe Spann

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Zissou Intern

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## Zissou Intern

There were not many natural topped Advanced Jumbos built back then. Imagine playing an AJ, given to you by Big Mon, for almost 50 years...
Thanks for the information, Joe.
ZI

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## f5loar

> I knew Cleo Davis during the last few years of his life. Beginning about 1981 he was part of the "Florida Opry" located between Auburndale and Lakeland, Florida. I played banjo on his part of the show every Saturday night for about a year. He was still using the Gibson guitar that Monroe gave him at that time. To the best of my knowledge he still owned it at the time of his death in 1986.
> 
> Joe Spann


   Where you able to date it and what model it was?

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## Zissou Intern

I just found a picture online of Bill and the original Bluegrass Boys, with Cleo Davis holding what appears to be an natural top J35. I don't know if it the same picture from _Can't You Hear Me Callin?_. I know longer have a copy of that book. I remembered it being an AJ; as I get older, memory grows, apparently, less reliable.

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## Joe Spann

> Where you able to date it and what model it was?


Sadly no. In 1981 I didn't know much about pre-war Gibson guitars. I remember it was in pretty rough shape.

Joe Spann

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## MikeEdgerton

*Many* threads about Bill Monroe on guitar.

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## MikeEdgerton

Monroe and guitars.

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## Zissou Intern

Thanks for posting the band picture, Jim. That was the image I had seen. Does anyone know if it the same picture in Mr. Monroe's biography?

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## KevinM

I actually thought Charlie Monroe played an OJ, not a AJ. The pics of his guitar as a member of the Monroe Brothers do not have the distinctive fingerboard inlays of the AJ. OJs were mahogany, AJs rosewood. Of course this from a time when anything goes and those assumptions may be dead wrong on a given guitar.

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## mando-tech

> I fully agree with the concept of "Bills Guitar" being the Martin D-28 played by many of his guitarists.  Although Allen may be correct stating '40's, I believe the guitar to be a '30's model.  Myself and others have had many discussions on this subject and wonder if the community can establish any facts.  It is said to have disappeared in the later '60's timeframe.


....Bill's famous Martin D-28 was a 1939,...supposedly stolen in 1965 ?,..Bill did supply Cleo Davis with a Gibson J-something, blonde,...probably the one pictured with  Bill holding  in front of the WSM microphone .

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## MikeEdgerton

> ....Bill's famous Martin D-28 was a 1939,...supposedly stolen in 1965 ?,..Bill did supply Cleo Davis with a Gibson J-something, blonde,...probably the one pictured with  Bill holding  in front of the WSM microphone .


https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...=1#post1317825

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## jimmy powells

> If you take a look at one of the pictures of the early Bluegrass Boys in "Can't You Hear Me Calling?" the guitar player is playing a Gibson Dreadnaught. As I recall the book indicates that Monroe would occassionaly provide good instruments to his newest accolytes. Being of Scottish extraction, I doubt he would 'give' them the instrument so maybe this was one of his band instruments. Besides the Gibson I've seen a Youtube vid where guitar player is playing a Guild. While Martin fanatics would like you to believe they are the only suitable guitar for Bluegrass, that rule apparently was not established by WSM himself.


Your comment of 'Being of Scottish extraction etc' is an insult to Scotland

You should be ashamed of yourself

Jimmy P

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## rcc56

> Here's a pic of Cleo with what looks like a Gibson headstock. 
> http://doodah.net/bgb/bgb39.html


The guitar Cleo Davis is holding in this picture is definitely a J-35, probably brand new.  It can be identified as a J-35 by the straight sided peghead with silkscreen logo, the dot inlays, and the large pickguard similar in shape to what Gibson used on the L-00's.  The J-35 was available in catalog listings with a natural top starting in 1939.  Many were made with natural tops.

We have a firm date for the introduction of the J-45.  It was introduced in August, 1942.  J-45's have radiused peghead sides.  They had a smaller teardrop shaped pickguard, somewhat similar to a Martin shape, from 1942 to 1954.  The silkscreen logo was originally in gold script, and most, if not all of them had the "Only a Gibson is Good Enough" banner in the logo until 1946.  By 1948 or '49, the modern block logo had replaced the script.  A few early 40's J-50's with a natural finish are said to have been made, but the few that I have seen all had finishes that were suspect.

A side note:  There are some early pictures of Doc Watson with a J-45.  Some folks believe that Doc borrowed the guitar from his neighbor, Clint Howard.  It has been said that when Doc was first discovered, the only guitar that he owned was a Les Paul.

Bill Monroe is playing his F-7 in the old Bluegrass Boys photo, and Amos Garren is playing what appears to be a high quality European bass, which may have been the most valuable instrument in the photo at the time it was taken.

I have heard several rumors about what might have happened to Bill's old D-28.  It was said to have been an unusually powerful guitar, which was one reason he preferred his guitar players to use it in those days of performing with a single microphone.  I suppose the only person who knows what really happened to it is James Monroe.

Charlie Monroe used several guitars over the course of his career.  The ones that were photographed the most were a Gibson Jumbo and a Martin D-45.  There are also several pictures of him playing a herringbone D-28.

Does anyone know what happened to Bill's F-7?

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## markd

I helped the Fretboard Journal folks interview Del McCoury last Spring and I asked him about Bill's D-28  herringbone that was stolen - he said it was a 1939 with a long pickguard and that it was Pete Rowen who had it at a party in Nashville and inadvertently left it, he came back for it but it was gone and it has not been seen since.  The podcast interview (FJ Podcast #181) is here: 

https://www.fretboardjournal.com/pod...1-del-mccoury/

The part where Del is talking about Bill's guitar starts at about 15:00.  Ronnie talks about his F-5 Loar as well - and Rob talks about his Mastertone banjo. 

Mark

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MikeEdgerton

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## Jeff Mando

> The guitar Cleo Davis is holding in this picture is definitely a J-35, probably brand new.  It can be identified as a J-35 by the straight sided peghead with silkscreen logo, the dot inlays, and the large pickguard similar in shape to what Gibson used on the L-00's.  The J-35 was available in catalog listings with a natural top starting in 1939.  Many were made with natural tops.


FWIW, Bob Dylan is pictured often early in his (folk) career with a natural top J-35, obviously purchased used for that "authentic wandering hobo vibe!"

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## Hendrik Ahrend

It should be noted that Bill had two D28 Herringbones stolen. The first one was purchased in 1939 and got stolen in 1947, according to Earl Scruggs (in Ewing: Bill Monroe. The LIfe and Music of the Blue Grass Man, 139). Sometime in 1948-49 Bill would buy another D28, the instrument that got stolen out of James Monroes car while James and Peter Rowan attended a Nashville bar in late June early July 1966 (Ewing, 284).

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MikeEdgerton

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## mando-tech

> "Bill's guitar" -- meaning the one that he played on _Muleskinner Blues_ and often took into the studio  -- was a '40's vintage Martin D-28 "herringbone."  Neil Rosenberg writes in _Bill Monroe and the Blue Grass Boys: An Illustrated Discography_ (p.24):
> _ Monroe's battered Martin D-28 guitar was used on most recording sessions from the late forties until 1965 when it was stolen from James Monroe's car in Nashville._
> 
> (Though I have heard suspicion cast on whether it was actually stolen, or perhaps sold surreptitiously...)
> 
> Monroe had many many instruments given to him, and I believe he gave some of them to friends and other musicians.  He may well have owned a Gibson Blue Ridge, and passed it on to a family member.  Like  the Ibanez mandolins discussed in another thread, these weren't identified with him, but the D-28 surely was; he had his guitarists record with it because he liked its sound.


,...thought it was common knowledge that Bill's D-28 was a 1939,  and about the Gibson, that is the one he bought for Cleo to use when he first hired him !,...so likely it was a 1938 or earlier,...looks similar to a J-50, but since was no J-50 that early , had to be a J-35, etc.

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## MikeZito

> Monroe had many many instruments given to him, and I believe he gave some of them to friends and other musicians.  He may well have owned a Gibson Blue Ridge, and passed it on to a family member.  Like  the Ibanez mandolins discussed in another thread, these weren't identified with him, but the D-28 surely was; he had his guitarists record with it because he liked its sound.


My old radio boss was once offered the job of being Bill's manager; (shortly before Ralph Rinzler was hired - he turned the job down because he was smart enough to realize that the job would eventually go to somebody with more status in the music business).

Anyhow, one day Bill was at the house of my old boss, noodling around on his mandolin when he noticed one of the kids watching him, awestruck by the sound of the mandolin.  When Bill asked the child if he liked the mandolin, the child said '_Yes_' and Bill promised to bring him a mandolin, the next time he was in the area . . . unfortunately, the promised exchange never happened.  I suppose it would have been very cool to have owned a mandolin given to you by Bill Monroe.

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