# Octaves, Zouks, Citterns, Tenors and Electrics > CBOM >  OM vs Irish Bouzouki

## Sweetpea44

I'm a little confused as to the differences between these two instruments.  I've read that the tuning for the IB is GDAD but some people tune it like the OM.  If they can be tuned the same then what are the differences between these two instruments?  Also, for the GDAD tuning, is the second set of D strings tuned an octave higher than the first or something else?   Thanks!

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## Eddie Sheehy

Scale length.  IB is 26" plus.  OM is sub 26" - usually sub 24".  But it's a grey area...  then there's the Cittern...
OM is a relatively new instrument which was designed to accommodate melody playing as opposed to the chordal accompaniment of the Irish Bouzouki, so the shorter scale facilitated that.  I interchange melody and accompaniment between both instruments and I also vary their tunings between GDAE and GDAD...

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## jmp

There is a gray area, with no bright lines here, but generally speaking with tons of caveats etc. etc.:
1. Irish Bouzouki tends to have a bit longer scale length than on OM
2. Irish Bouzouki lower courses are more often tuned in octave pairs, whereas OM are more usually tuned in unison
3. Irish Bouzouki tuning can often be GDAd (yes 2nd set of D strings is octave higher than 1st set, not to be confused with the 1st set often consisting of an octave pair itself) or other alternate tunings, whereas OM by definition is tuned an octave lower than a "regular" mandolin


It is confusing because OM and Bouzouki and often used interchangeably as there are really not discrete differences here but more a continuum overlapping of musical instrument traditions.

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## Eddie Sheehy

@jmp your third point is confusing.  The GDAD of the Zouk is the same register as the GDAE of the OM - the top string differs by 1 full step.  The other pairs are a fifth apart.
There is a separate thread on Octave strings...

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## jmp

@Eddie Sheehy  Agree with what you are saying!  Since @Sweetpea44  was asking if the "Ds" in GDAD tuning were tuned an octave apart, I was trying to say YES they are an octave apart and wrote it as "GDAd" with the lowercase "d" being the higher octave.

The confusing point is that IF the "D" course is tuned in an octave pair and the "d" course is tuned in the unison, then one of the strings in the "D" course will be tuned the same as those in the "d" course.

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## Sweetpea44

If the IB can withstand both tunings, then would it be considered a more versatile instrument?  Or, is it more limiting because of the longer scale length and only used for chordal arrangements?

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## Eddie Sheehy

They can both take either tuning since it's only a full step up or down on the top pair - but of course doing it too often will cause a twaaaannnnngggg..... and replacement.... The only limitation is the player...

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## jmp

I would not say one is more versatile than the other, except that in some sense IB is intended primarily for Irish music and OM for a wider range.  This is really a fuzzy area.  It depends on what you want to play, what kind of sound you prefer, etc.

Both IB and OM can "withstand" the same tunings, it's just about the tendencies on usage between the two.

What do you want to do musically?

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## Sweetpea44

Well, I'm interested in something 'different' so the alternate tuning of the IB was appealing.  Also, I'm part Irish, so I thought it would be fun to learn some jigs and reels.  

Was thinking of picking up either a used OM or IB, so that's what started my confusion as to which to play around with.  Do you all recommend any brands/models for beginners?

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## Eddie Sheehy

There's always something in the Classifieds.  Whether you use it for accompaniment, melody, cross-picking, vocal backup, or blues solos try everything on it.  There are no rules and no limitations.  Check out Zan McLeod DVD for IB accompaniment, Tim O'Brien for Octave Mandolin melodies, Sarah Jarosz for vocal backup, and Beth Patterson for everything else...

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## allenhopkins

> Well, I'm interested in something 'different' so the alternate tuning of the IB was appealing.  Also, I'm part Irish, so I thought it would be fun to learn some jigs and reels. Was thinking of picking up either a used OM or IB, so that's what started my confusion as to which to play around with.  Do you all recommend any brands/models for beginners?


Difference between "octave mandolin" and "Irish bouzouki" is vague.  Mostly scale length, but even that's not consistent.  Many people playing "bouzouki" in Celtic music just tune it GDAE like an octave mandolin.  And you can play Celtic/Irish music on either, in either GDAD or GDAE tuning.

Trinity College instruments, distributed by Saga, get pretty consistent good marks as introductory-level OM's and bouzoukis.  They make both: their bouzouki has a 26 3/4 inch scale, their OM is spec-ed at 20 3/8 inches.  Major scale length discrepancy!  And the OM is pretty short-scale as OM's go; Petersen, for example, makes a 22 1/2 inch scale, and my Flatiron 3K is around 23 inches.

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## zoukboy

> 2. Irish Bouzouki lower courses are more often tuned in octave pairs, whereas OM are more usually tuned in unison.


I have to beg to differ here . :-)  Lower courses on Irish bouzouki are *sometimes* tuned in octaves, but we are definitely in the minority. The VAST majority of players tune the bass courses to unisons. That, along with Johnny Moynihann's G2D3A3D4 tuning, actually defined the instrument. The subject of octave bass pairs has gained some attention on this forum lately perhaps suggesting that the practice is more common than it actually is.

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## zoukboy

> I'm a little confused as to the differences between these two instruments.  I've read that the tuning for the IB is GDAD but some people tune it like the OM.  If they can be tuned the same then what are the differences between these two instruments?  Also, for the GDAD tuning, is the second set of D strings tuned an octave higher than the first or something else?   Thanks!


I will agree with others that there is a grey area. The physical difference is mostly due to scale length: one probably wouldn't call a 21"-23" scale instrument an "Irish bouzouki." Neither would a 25"-27" instrument probably be called an "octave mandolin." But more than the size difference is the issue of tuning. By far the most customary tuning for IB is G2D3A3D4, and all unison pairs is the overwhelming preference. There is also the matter of musical style. If you tune the instrument an octave below mandolin and approach it like a mando then you might as well call it an "octave mandolin."  If you tune GDAD and your frame of reference is the plethora of Irish, Scots, English, Breton, Spanish, and Nordic players/traditions then bouzouki is the "preferred nomenclature" (to borrow a phrase from "The Big Lebowski"). These different tunings have practical differences but they also represent different modes of thinking, but the idea that GDAD is "better" for accompaniment and "worse" for melody, and GDAE is "better" for melody and "worse" for accompaniment is a myth.

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## Jim Yates

I have an "Octave Mandolin", but I prefer the GDAD tuning.  I treat it as a different instrument from my mandolins.  There seems to be a great deal of confusion about the naming of these big mando instruments.  I would prefer to leave the words "bouzouki" and "cittern" right out of the nomenclature unless you are talking about an actual bouzouki, the Greek bowl back instrument with 3 or 4 courses and, usually fitted with a deArmond pick-up or an actual cittern, a period instrument that is seldom used for modern music.  Grit Laskin used to build "Long necked mandolins" that would fall into the catagories of bouzoukis, octave mandolins or citterns by many folks definitions.  He called them all long necked mandolins.  I've heard the names octave mandolins, Irish bouzoukis, bouzoukis, citterns, octophones, monster mandolins, mandothings... all applied to the same instruments.  
If I tune my OM GDAD, does it become a bouzouki?  If I put octave strings on it does it become a bouzouki?  
I have capoed it at the fifth fret to play mandola parts.

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## zoukboy

> I would prefer to leave the words "bouzouki" and "cittern" right out of the nomenclature unless you are talking about an actual bouzouki, the Greek bowl back instrument with 3 or 4 courses and, usually fitted with a deArmond pick-up or an actual cittern, a period instrument that is seldom used for modern music.


Good luck with that!  :-)

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## John Kelly

> Well, I'm interested in something 'different' so the alternate tuning of the IB was appealing.  Also, I'm part Irish, so I thought it would be fun to learn some jigs and reels.


For melody playing, especially of jigs and reels, I'd suggest you go with the octave as the bouzouki's longer scale makes fingering the tunes quite a lot harder when you are trying to get a good speed in your playing.  Conversely, I tend to prefer my bouzouki for the slower tunes and especially slow airs (I play more Scottish than Irish material) where the extra body volume and scale length can give the tune a better sound (in my opinion!).

I have mine both tuned to GDAE with unison pairs on all 4 courses, but that is to make it easier to switch around between mandolin family and tenor guitar and banjo (both again in GDAE).

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## Jim Yates

> Good luck with that!  :-)


I really don't expect to convert anyone at this stage of the game.  It's just my "I wish they'd have thought up a new name for the new instrument(s)," but since they didn't, I guess I can live with it.  
I recall a fellow named Gerald Trimble, whose playing I admired, saying that he figured they were all just variations on the same instrument and it didn't matter what name you used, but that was years ago and it seems folks have become more set in their ways.

For one gig in the mid 90s, I was playing only back-up with no solos, so I tried octave G and D strings.  It worked fine, but I've never gone back to it.

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## Sweetpea44

Thanks for the replies.  There aren't any local places around here that sell either instrument so I can't play around with one first.  Based on the scale length, I'm guessing the IB would feel similar to a guitar (in how far my arm would stretch).  I'm only 5'2".  :-)  Does Goldtone make good instruments?  One local place recommended checking them out as well, and Trinity College.

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## John Kelly

The bouzouki does feel similar to the guitar for stretch, Sweetpea, but the narrower neck makes it a bit easier (in my opinion) to play.
My bouzouki is 37mm at the nut (8mm narrower than my preferred guitar nut width of 45mm) and has a 625mm scale.  Here is a link to a slow air, Coilsfield House, I have posted on the SAW group showing the bouzouki being played and you can see that I am using all of my left-hand fingers in guitar style on this tune.  The stretch is very much as you'd find on guitar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVnem7tbAAw

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Emmett Marshall, 

mandolinlee

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## Bertram Henze

> Based on the scale length, I'm guessing the IB would feel similar to a guitar (in how far my arm would stretch).  I'm only 5'2".  :-)


Well, if that is your arm's length, you shouldn't have a problem there  :Wink: 

But seriously: the first bouzouki I ever saw was a big 10-stringer played by a slightly built little lass who had no problems playing it; that was some 30 years ago - the same lass (grown up since, but not in length) still plays the same 10-stringer today.
Another example of course is Beth Patterson, no giant ogre either.

I myself play an OM, because I came from violin playing and am too old now to break out of GDAE and violin fingering (in fact hardly ever use the pinky); when asked, I always say my instrument ends where bouzoukis have their capo.  :Cool:

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## Goodin

Here is how I describe each "CBOM" instrument:

4 course, 20-23" scale, commonly tuned GDAE - Octave mandolin
4 course, 25+" scale, commonly tuned GDAD - Irish bouzouki
5 course, 20-24" scale - Cittern
5 course, 26+" scale - Blarge

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## Pete Braccio

Q: What's the difference between an Octave Mandolin and a Bouzouki? 

A: About two inches. 

Where you measure from is completely up to you. As far as turnings go, don't forget ADAD as well, octave strings just on the G course, octave strings opposite from how you'd string a 12 string guitar, and any other tuning that pops into your head. 

Pete

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## CES

Gold Tone is probably known more for their banjos, but, yes, they make quality instruments at an affordable price.  Go for one of their newer OM's (made in the last 2 years, I think)...their initial offerings had some structural issues, but they seem to have remedied these issues with their latest offerings.  I almost bought one last year when I was OM shopping, but ended up with a Weber Hyalite instead.  I think the newer ones are named the OM-800+ (rather than just 800), but can't exactly recall at the moment.  The Trinity College instruments are decent instruments for the money as well, but as Alan pointed out, there's a big difference in scale length between their OM and Zouk....basically, pick one out, order from a shop that does a quality set-up, and run with it!

I used to have problems with the OM stretch (think mine's 22inches), but since learning bass to help out the youth praise band at church it's been much less of an issue.  If you try to play with fingerings suggested by John McGann (index covers first 2 frets, the one finger per fret thereafter) you'll get quite a pinky workout on fiddle tunes/irish trad!

Good luck...I really enjoy this instrument, but it's truly a completely different beast from mandolin, and you should prepare for the fact that you're learning a new instrument, not just playing your mandolin fingerings on a deeper-voiced instrument.  As long as you realize this, you'll enjoy it!

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## otterly2k

Sweetpea, speaking as a person with small hands, I'd encourage you to consider starting with something on the shorter scale side... 20-22".  Even if you do play the guitar and are used to the longer scale of the guitar, you have to remember that the bouzouki or OM will likely be tuned more in 5ths than not.  Guitars are mostly 4ths.  What this means is that even playing chords, you will be more often needing to reach longer than on a guitar. 

Obviously anyone can play any scale... it's just a matter of adapting the technique.  When I can't reach something, I figure out a different way to play it, or just move up/down the neck more.  But I think especially when starting on a new (to you) instrument, things like an uncomfortably long stretch can just be discouraging and make it hard to get a real idea of how you like the instrument.  

You can use any tunings you like and certainly can play Irish music on any of the instruments we're talking about.  (I myself play a 20.5" scale OM which I keep tuned in ADAE unison courses and play lots of different styles including Irish).

I recommend the Trinity College instruments as a good place to start... the OM has a short scale (in the range of these things) and is decent.  I have only played one Gold Tone OM, and that one was WAY oversprayed - the finish was super thick which made the instrument heavier and less responsive than I was happy with.  I don't know if all Gold Tones are like that, but I haven't met a TC yet that was.

Good luck with your quest and welcome to the CBOM fold.

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## Jim Yates

> Here is how I describe each "CBOM" instrument:
> 
> 4 course, 20-23" scale, commonly tuned GDAE - Octave mandolin
> 4 course, 25+" scale, commonly tuned GDAD - Irish bouzouki
> 5 course, 20-24" scale - Cittern
> 5 course, 26+" scale - Blarge


Now what would you call a 4 course instrument with a 24" scale? 
 The only place I've heard the word "Blarge" was applied to Donal Lunny's instrument.

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## Goodin

> Now what would you call a 4 course instrument with a 24" scale? 
>  The only place I've heard the word "Blarge" was applied to Donal Lunny's instrument.


I would probably call that a bouzouki.  I think a shorter scale instrument more likely used for melody to be called an octave mandolin/cittern and a longer scale instrument more likely used for accompaniment to be called a bouzouki/blarge.  24" seems a bit of a stretch to play melody for most people so I would call that a bouzouki.  This is obviously open for interpretation.

Andy built the first long scale (~27") bouzouki with a low 5th course for Donal in the early 1970's.  Donal dreampt up the idea and had Andy build it and thus the first blarge as they named it was born (blarge = bouzouki + extra bass course or bouzouki large).  I think since Donal/Andy named the first kind of this instrument that's what it should be called, just as Sobell recycled "cittern" to be used for the shorter scale 5 course bouzouki type instrument that he was building back then.  What I don't like to hear is someone calling a long scale 5 course instrument a cittern.  Call it a 5 course bouzouki or blarge.  Of course, that's just my opinion  :Smile:   but I do tip my hat and pay respects to the originators and call the instrument what they would prefer it to be called.

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## zoukboy

> <snip> ...just as Sobell recycled "cittern" to be used for the shorter scale 5 course bouzouki type instrument that he was building back then.  What I don't like to hear is someone calling a long scale 5 course instrument a cittern.  Call it a 5 course bouzouki or blarge.  Of course, that's just my opinion   but I do tip my hat and pay respects to the originators and call the instrument what they would prefer it to be called.


I am with you there, except for one tiny point: Sobell applied the term "cittern" to his short scale, open tuned instruments regardless of whether they had either 4 or 5 courses. It is only in the last 20 years or so that the term is being used almost exclusively for 5 course instrument regardless of scale length.

One other niggling point: Sobell chose the term "cittern," because of a cursory *visual* similarity between what he was building and the historical instrument. (There are many, many actual differences, though.) But with "bouzouki," that term is used in Irish music because the first bouzoukis introduced were Greek bouzoukis, and the first "Irish bouzoukis" were very conscious adaptations of that instrumental concept.

:-)

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## Eddie Sheehy

I had a 10-string Joe Foley instrument that was 17" wide and the label read BLARZ...
For my own sanity I refer to: 
10-string instruments as Citterns (with the exception of my 10-string Vega cylinderback 15"-scale which I refer to as a mandolute).  
8-string instruments longer than 24"-scale are Bouzoukis
 -- 8-string instruments longer than 24"-scale as Octave Mandolins
 --- 8-string instruments longer than 14"-scale as Mandolas

Regardless of tuning...

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## zoukboy

> I had a 10-string Joe Foley instrument that was 17" wide and the label read BLARZ...


Hey Eddie,

"BLARZ" sounds Breton  :-)

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## Goodin

Roger - I wasn't aware Sobell called even his four course instruments citterns.  That seems to further confuse things!  

Aghghghhh Eddie see that makes me cringe that you call the long scale 5 course instrument a cittern!  I am speculating but would think that BLARZ on your Foley is a variant of the Blarge.  I believe Foley was influenced alot by Manson as is evident by his headstock design, and hearsay.  More evidence to back up my thought that Blarge deserves the rightful exclusive definition of a long scale 5 course Irish type bouzouki.

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## Goodin

I will try not to loose sleep over the Blarge/Cittern debate  :Wink: .  I do know lots of players who call the long scale 5 course instrument a cittern, so perhaps in 100 years from now that will be what it's exclusively called.  However, my 2010 5 course 27" scale Manson reads "BLARGE" on the label so Andy still calls it that. And thats what I call the  5 course long scale zouks I build, so Im sticking to it!  :Smile:

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## zoukboy

> I will try not to loose sleep over the Blarge/Cittern debate .  I do know lots of players who call the long scale 5 course instrument a cittern, so perhaps in 100 years from now that will be what it's exclusively called.  However, my 2010 5 course 27" scale Manson reads "BLARGE" on the label so Andy still calls it that. And thats what I call the  5 course long scale zouks I build, so Im sticking to it!


I hear you. I played long scale 5 course instruments for about 10 years and grew very weary of people calling them "citterns." It's not the reason I switched to 4 course instruments exclusively in 2004 - the real issue was sound and response - but I don't mind that I no longer have to deal with the "cittern" vs bouzouki debate.

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Goodin

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## Bertram Henze

The existence of the mandocello is suggesting that not only number of strings and scale length determine a name, but also the tuning. So should we call a GDAD 26" 8-stringer different from an ADAD 26" 8-stringer, maybe "zoug" vs. "zouka" ?  :Chicken: 

The number of strings has made me number and number over the years, so I have come to call the 10-stringer a 10-stringer and leave it at that  :Sleepy: 

Now back to playing my GDAE 21" 8-stringer.

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## Goodin

That's probably a good idea Bertram!  Circumvent the debate!

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## zoukboy

> That's probably a good idea Bertram!  Circumvent the debate!


:-))))))

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## Eddie Sheehy

> Hey Eddie,
> 
> "BLARZ" sounds Breton  :-)


Take it up with Joe...  It was a 1989 build... Joe seemed to think it might have been for Jimmy Crowley but Joe's always been a busy man...

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## Eddie Sheehy

I have a 10-string Phil Crump C-III (Cittern)... 26" scale, CCGGDDAAEE...  Phil designates his Bouzoukis B and his Citterns C...

"A rose by any other name is still a rose"

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## zoukboy

> Take it up with Joe...


Wasn't trying to offend you, Eddie!  :-)

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## Eddie Sheehy

No offence taken, Roger.  I was just trying to say that when there are more than two descriptions for an instrument then the builder has the last say.

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## TheArimathean

> I have a 10-string Phil Crump C-III (Cittern)... 26" scale, CCGGDDAAEE...  Phil designates his Bouzoukis B and his Citterns C...
> 
> "A rose by any other name is still a rose"


1st, (no offense meant to you at all Eddie) I believe the quote goes "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
2nd, CCGGDDAAEE sound's like 5-course 'cello to me... but I think the sounds matters more than the name  :Smile:

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## Eddie Sheehy

Again, no offence taken, but you can take it up with Phil Crump.  BTW, my paraphrase is exactly what I meant...

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## Goodin

> I was just trying to say that when there are more than two descriptions for an instrument then the builder has the last say.


That's what I'm saying too.  Obviously I'm a huge Manson fan.  :Wink:

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zoukboy

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## Jim Yates

My friend Ian has a six course long scale Sobell.  What would that be called?

Another source of confusion is "Mandola".  Some think of it as the mando-family equivalent of the Viola, tuned CGDA, while others use the word to describe an octave mandolin.
I've also heard the term "octave mandola" used to describe not an instrument an octave below a mandola, which seems to make sense,  but an octave below a mandolin.

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## Goodin

> My friend Ian has a six course long scale Sobell.  What would that be called?
> 
> Another source of confusion is "Mandola".  Some think of it as the mando-family equivalent of the Viola, tuned CGDA, while others use the word to describe an octave mandolin.
> I've also heard the term "octave mandola" used to describe not an instrument an octave below a mandola, which seems to make sense,  but an octave below a mandolin.



I also have a friend who has a six course Sobell.  He calls it a cittern.  I believe it is a shorter scale..24" maybe 25"?  I will see him in a few weeks and discuss.  

Yes the octave mandola term indeed confuses things further and it makes no sense to me.

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## zoukboy

> My friend Ian has a six course long scale Sobell.  What would that be called?


Brian McNeill had the first one of those back in 1984 (if memory serves).  He called it "The Tank."  ;-)

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## Goodin

> Brian McNeill had the first one of those back in 1984 (if memory serves).  He called it "The Tank."  ;-)


I think he had that one at Swannanoa last year.  It was indeed a tank!

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## belbein

SweetPea, if you want to come down to God's Country, I know that Maple Street in Atlanta has an OM hiding out on the guitar racks.  

Don't know about the IB stretch or guitar, but I can tell you that my OM stretches my fingers and my left arm very noticeably further than my regular mando.

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## Sweetpea44

Thanks for all the conversations.  :-)   I'm leaning more toward the OM because of the scale length.

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## zoukboy

> Thanks for all the conversations.  :-)   I'm leaning more toward the OM because of the scale length.


What do you want to play on the instrument?  Also, what styles/players are you listening to that have led to your interest in the instrument?

I ask this because I have taught many players who come to the Irish bouzouki from mandolin and want to try and maintain some continuity of tuning/concept - nothing wrong with that, but many, many times these players are actually listening to Irish players who are not playing in octave mandolin tuning.

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## Sweetpea44

I would like to play traditional Irish tunes .... some jigs and reels.  But, I'm open to different styles.  I have a Weber mando that I mostly play bluegrass on, and a 5-string emando that I just goof around on (my husband and I made it from a kit).  So, I was looking into a 'different' instrument to add to the mix.

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## Sweetpea44

Or, I guess another way to answer the question, I plan on playing more melodies than accompaniment.

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## Bertram Henze

> Or, I guess another way to answer the question, I plan on playing more melodies than accompaniment.


That seems to point to shorter scales indeed. You'll have to try how it works out.

But I have seen longscale zouk players play melody, too (they just have other ways of circumventing the stretch problems); plus, there is a large gray area between pure melody and pure accompaniment, the world of doublestops and little counter-melodies where the ITM zouk players dwell.

One thing is certain: neither OM nor zouk can be played exactly like a mandolin; you will have to adapt to the bigger fretboard in any case by changing what you play and which notes you leave out. So the instrument seems to be taking some already learnt skills away, but it gives you longer sustain in return.

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## zoukboy

What Bertram said.

I would encourage you to go with the longer scale and the GDAD tuning and see if you like it. One pointer, though, you will want to approach it as a completely different instrument from the mandolin (because it is) and learn new tunes in the new tuning. A LOT of frustration can be avoided that way. 

The myth that GDAD is "better for accompaniment" and GDAE is "better for melody playing" stems from the frustration of trying to transfer ingrained repertoire (and associated muscle memory) from the one tuning/instrument to the other. Also, approaching the new tuning with new repertoire means you will be learning what the new tuning has to offer rather than constantly comparing differences.

Happy tunes!  :-)

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michaelcj, 

otterly2k

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## michaelpthompson

Just to add my two cents worth, I play a Gold Tone OM 800+ (22.5" scale length, tuned GDAE) and I like it a lot, but I have heard more good things about the TC instruments for beginners, and they're in the same price neighborhood. I got a good deal on my Gold Tone from a friend, so it works out well, and I had a K&K internal 3-head pickup put in it for when I play plugged in, which is when it sounds awesome, providing I have a good sound man. I mostly play chords and accompaniment for Irish music, so I have been toying with the idea of doing octave pairs, but haven't taken the time to experiment with it yet.

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## Tim2723

The other thing to consider is whether you want unison tuning (OM) or the more traditional zouk tuning in octaves.  Though a lot of zouk players use unison as well.

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## foldedpath

> One thing is certain: neither OM nor zouk can be played exactly like a mandolin; you will have to adapt to the bigger fretboard in any case by changing what you play and which notes you leave out. So the instrument seems to be taking some already learnt skills away, but it gives you longer sustain in return.


I would like to post a small (and very situation-dependent) objection to that idea.  :Wink: 

It comes down to speed. The tunes in Irish, Scottish, and related traditions (assuming that's what we're talking about here), were created to be played for dancers at a foot-stomping tempo, which implies a certain fingering for instruments tuned in 5ths. These tunes were not written for guitar-like fretted instruments that would involve so much hand sliding.

For example...

Last month, I attended a local mixed Scottish/Cape Breton/Irish pub session, where I normally play my mandolin. A friend was visiting in town, and I loaned him my mandolin for the session, and I brought my OM to play as a change of pace. That was a real workout. To keep up with the group's tempo, I had to finger pure mandolin style, with only the occasional hand-slide up to the B note on the upper E string. I _know_ how to re-finger these tunes guitar-style on the OM, but it just wasn't quick enough.

It's fine to say that one should "re-fiinger for the longer scale," but these tunes were written to be played easily and quickly with fiddle fingering. When you're playing a fast set of tunes in a group of fiddlers, concertina players and pipers that finishes up with Brenda Stubbert's and then jumps to Pigeon on a Gate at full-tilt session speed... well, you have to keep up! You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din, if you can follow the fiddlers in that situation without using standard mandolin fingering on an OM. 

Look at all the YouTube videos linked here, featuring the OM (or bouzouki) playing melodies. Ask yourself how many are actually at realistic high-end session or contra dance tempos. Most of the ones I've seen are far below actual session tempos.

So this question of scale length, playing melodies vs. backing with chords and so on... it's all well and good. But if you plan to actually _play the tunes_, at dance tempos, then I think that's an argument for shorter scales and keeping 'yer mandolin fingering. And if you're not going to play these tunes at full dance tempo... well, then... maybe you should be playing the mandolin instead. These tunes are meant to be foot-stompers, not dirges.

 :Wink:  (running, ducking, and hiding)

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## Bertram Henze

> ...To keep up with the group's tempo, I had to finger pure mandolin style, with only the occasional hand-slide up to the B note on the upper E string. I _know_ how to re-finger these tunes guitar-style on the OM, but it just wasn't quick enough.


The trick lies in knowing what to leave out - I can't keep up if I try to play every note like I would on the mandolin either - less is more. I usually give up on parts of the melody and add doublestops instead. For example, watch the B part of Julia Delaney's here:



Forgot to mention: this is 21" scale. For longer scale, I'd have to do something about some of the 2nd fret/5th fret stretches, but I am confident there'd be some replacement trick.

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Carl Robin, 

Emmett Marshall, 

Moonshine Mando, 

Rob Zamites

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## Sweetpea44

> The other thing to consider is whether you want unison tuning (OM) or the more traditional zouk tuning in octaves.  Though a lot of zouk players use unison as well.


Could the OM be tuned in either configuration?  Would it be possible to string it in octave on the G and D by using a D string for the octave G and an A string for the octave D?  Or, would the nut and bridge slots be an issue?

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## zoukboy

> Could the OM be tuned in either configuration?  Would it be possible to string it in octave on the G and D by using a D string for the octave G and an A string for the octave D?  Or, would the nut and bridge slots be an issue?


It is quite simple to go from unison to octave bass pairs on an OM. All you have to do is either use an extra E string for the octave on the D and an extra A string for the octave on the G, or buy strings for the octave that are roughly 1/2 the gauge of the original.

For instance, if you are using D'Addario's J80 octave mandolin set: 

len 23"

E   .012" PL == 19.0#
E   .012" PL == 19.0#
A,  .022" PB == 26.2#
A,  .022" PB == 26.2#
D,  .032" PB == 24.84#
D,  .032" PB == 24.84#
G,, .046" PB == 22.91#
G,, .046" PB == 22.91#
total == 185.89#

and then used E and A strings for octaves on the D and G you would have these tensions:

E   .012" PL == 19.0#
E   .012" PL == 19.0#
A,  .022" PB == 26.2#
A,  .022" PB == 26.2#
D   .012" PL == 15.08#
D,  .032" PB == 24.84#
G,  .022" PB == 20.79#
G,, .046" PB == 22.91#
total == 174.01#

Or you could take the second suggestion and end up with these:

E   .012" PL == 19.0#
E   .012" PL == 19.0#
A,  .022" PB == 26.2#
A,  .022" PB == 26.2#
D   .016" PL == 26.81#
D,  .032" PB == 24.84#
G,  .023" PB == 22.74#
G,, .046" PB == 22.91#
total == 187.69#

In the first case you would be completely safe because the overall tension would be lower than with the original set. In the second case you would still be within the parameter of safe tension.  This assumes, of course, that the D'Addario set is suitable for your instrument in the first place, but it shows a couple of ways to approach the problem.

Also, depending on how the instrument's nut is set up, you might experience some buzzing when changing from unison to octave pairs, as well as some intonation issues. These have all been discussed in other threads. Short answer is if you decide to switch from unisons to octaves and keep it like that you will almost certainly need to have the intonation at the bridge modified.

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DavidKOS, 

Sweetpea44

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## otterly2k

Sweetpea - there's a very inexpensive Trinity College OM that just popped up in the Classified Ads.  NFI - just want to draw your attention to it, in case it is of interest.

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## Sweetpea44

> Sweetpea - there's a very inexpensive Trinity College OM that just popped up in the Classified Ads.  NFI - just want to draw your attention to it, in case it is of interest.


Otterly2k - thanks!  I contacted the seller earlier.  He's ideally looking for a local sale, but I told him to keep me posted in case a local person didn't contact him first.  I'll continue my search in the meantime.  :-)

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## mandroid

My picking buddy has a TC Irish  Zouk.. there are G,D, octave pair, on his .. string light 
 some chords are stretches.. and noting, for the violinist.. got his from one, 2nd hand.


shorter scale Octave will likely be all unison pairs and  thicker strings,
 mas, mass, to reach down to  lower pitch..

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## Barry Wilson

My OM is an OM or a Bouzouki, depending who I am explaining to what it is. :D

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Leigh Coates

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## Rob Zamites

I decided to kick this one back to life after reading an email from Nikos Apollonio who is creating a beastly 'cittern' for me.

Me:



> ...what scale length is my cittern going to be? I couldn't find it in our previous emails :-)


Nick:



> No biggie....25 11/32". Puts the bridge in the right place on the soundboard w. a 16 fret neck. If I didn't mention, will send my chord chart for DADAD tuning to get you started. I've been thru various but settled on that one. CGCGC the same intervals.
> *I may call it a 5 course mandocello if I do one on spec, for marketing purposes* (Old Gibsons fetch unbelieveable prices).


Just adding to the very muddied waters of CBOM nomenclature  :Laughing:   :Whistling:

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## DavidKOS

If you tune GDAE in unisons, it's an octave mandolin by definition. Unless it's a banjo!

Of course it could be an Irish bouzouki too! Isn't this fun?

Seriously, I've seen all sorts of tunings for Irish playing, DAD, GDAD, GDAE, ADAD, 5 string tunings, unison basses, octave basses, whatever.

Just have a Guinness and enjoy.

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Moonshine Mando, 

Rob Zamites

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## Lord of the Badgers

> If the IB can withstand both tunings, then would it be considered a more versatile instrument?  Or, is it more limiting because of the longer scale length and only used for chordal arrangements?


Um, I've tuned an OM (and for that matter, standard Mandolin) in GDAD....

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## DavidKOS

> Um, I've tuned an OM (and for that matter, standard Mandolin) in GDAD....


Shucks, for some special uses (like Medieval tunes) I've used GDGD, too.

Whatever works.

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## Rob Zamites

Well, I've never tried a pure open tuning, so my initial experiments are going to be DADAD, at least until the next shiny looking tuning beckons!

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## Sweetpea44

> Um, I've tuned an OM (and for that matter, standard Mandolin) in GDAD....


Haha -- I forgot about this old thread!  I've learned a lot since starting this thread over 2 years ago.  :Wink:    I've since then gotten both .... a used zouk I tune GDAD with octave pairs and a used OM.  I have to say I've been playing the zouk more often recently.  I love the sound of the octave strings and the 'slightly' different tuning with the high D.

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Emmett Marshall, 

Rob Zamites

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## Lord of the Badgers

re octave stringing, i do agree with you, but it's a bugger to record though ... lots of high frequency weirdness... our normally infallible engineer really struggled to tame em. It's why I went with a Forster Gzouk .... the vids of it in unison sound awesome

that and when you play tunes, it's a weird jump from octave to unison and in my buchanan, my fingers sometimes miss the hi string

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Nick Gellie

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## Colin Lindsay

> re octave stringing, my fingers sometimes miss the hi string


and they can be trouble to capo too, if you use one of those Devils attachments..  :Smile: 
I found a 12-string guitar one with the stronger grip was the only thing that would work. Anison, now, is no problem.

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Rob Zamites

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## Colin Lindsay

> Anison, now, is no problem.


Neither is unison….. with or without a spell checker…  :Smile:

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## Lord of the Badgers

I thought you might've been on about that woman out of Friends. You know, with the hair. Apparently. But that's got a T in it I think...

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fox

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## Moonshine Mando

Got a TC Bouzouki for the holidays and in research I found this thread - great info!  I've been a browser for a while on the site but registered so that I could thank everyone for the info.

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fox

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## Sweetpea44

Glad you like the Zouk - and welcome to the Cafe!   :Smile:

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## andrea rose

does anybody know what tuning Sarah Jarosz uses on her OM and some chords for that tuning.. I am wanting to use mine for vocal back up song writing.I'm trying to learn OM .. been playing guitar for years and this is totally different.. #newbie

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## vernob

Sarah Jarosz uses GDAE on her octave mandolin, which is guitar shaped in the videos I've seen. Here's a trick to making the transition: the bottom four strings of a guitar are EADG. The four courses of an OM are GDAE. Each is just the mirror image of the other. Of course, learning to play "backwards" is difficult. But if you are comfortable with your guitar chord forms, turning them around gives you a head start.

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michaelcj

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## andrea rose

oh wow!! i didnt' even realize that !! I'm gonna try that !! thanks!!  :Smile:

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## red7flag

This thread not only got me to get out my GOM, but to measure the scale -- 22 inches.  Andrew Mowry did an excellent job on this instrument.  I do find that the G (tuned GDAE) is a bit wobbly.  Andrew recommends the following gauges 52w, 36w, 22w and 13.  What would you guys suggest?

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## michaelcj

> This thread not only got me to get out my GOM, but to measure the scale -- 22 inches.  Andrew Mowry did an excellent job on this instrument.  I do find that the G (tuned GDAE) is a bit wobbly.  Andrew recommends the following gauges 52w, 36w, 22w and 13.  What would you guys suggest?


Gauges on my Clark are; .052, .034, .023, .013…. but it is a 20.25" scale…

Seems to me that the G course is always going to be a bit of a compromise between "a bit floppy" and "total thud" on an OM. when you get to a Zouk scale of 24.75" to 26" I think you can expect more of the "guitar" bass clarity and "ring".

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red7flag

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## mandroid

IDK Sarah's gear , but because the Irish Bouzouki is a lot longer neck* , than the Octave Mandolin

 to reach the same  GDAE  octave  pitch,    the strings are a Lot thinner  ..


* fits in a Banjo case.

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## michaelcj

A guitar of about the same scale length of a Zøuk has [medium set]

A string of .045w one step higher than the  Zouk G
D string of .035w same for Zouk D
B string of .o17p one step higher than the Zouk A
E string of .013  same for Zouk E

For regular Double Courses I would guess you would have to be confident in your neck construction/truss rod, but I don't see why the G and A Zouk strings couldn't go a bit thicker with the lower pitch.

With octave courses on the G and D I would think you could increase the G even a bit more.

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red7flag

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## Bertram Henze

> I do find that the G (tuned GDAE) is a bit wobbly.  Andrew recommends the following gauges 52w, 36w, 22w and 13.  What would you guys suggest?


I have 52-36-24-15 on a 21" OM. The G is nice and booming that way, and I wouldn't go any heavier than 52 on a 22" length.

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red7flag

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## KevinThomas

As has been stated many times in this thread. it's a pretty grey area. I think the biggest defining characteristic is the scale length. I've got a bouzouki with unison strings tuned GDAD, I do a variety of different things on it: chording, arpeggiation and double-stops, as well as playing fiddle tunes and some soloing and lead work. It is definitely not as easy to pull off fiddle tunes on the longer scale length but it just takes some getting used to. 
Even with the unison sets all the way across I still consider it a bouzouki because of the scale length.

Just my two cents, for what it's worth.

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red7flag

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## Colin Lindsay

I find that too Kevin - playing at the zero fret can be awkward at speed but moving to the fifth (G) is a lot easier. 
Re Red7flag: when I had my Fylde Octavious I found the recommended string gauge of 52 very very floppy indeed, in fact it spoiled the playing of the instrument completely as it was always very dull and nothing I tried improved things. The extra scale length of the bouzouki enables me to use guitar strings in unison (many more versions to choose from than bouzouki strings) and it plays so much more brightly.

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red7flag

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## Whitepaws

Can an Irish Bouzouki be tuned GDBD, the same as a banjo open G tuning?

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## DavidKOS

> Can an Irish Bouzouki be tuned GDBD, the same as a banjo open G tuning?


G banjo tuning is G DGBD

I assume with the right gauge of strings you could tune to that.

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## OneChordTrick

> Can an Irish Bouzouki be tuned GDBD, the same as a banjo open G tuning?


Yes!  I’ve just tried it; at least on my OM. As David said if you have the right gauge strings. 

I tuned it back though as I have enough problems playing in GDAD/E and don’t want to confuse my brain further.

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DavidKOS

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