# Instruments and Equipment > Videos, Pictures & Sound Files >  Wienman F-5 at Gruhn's?

## mcgroup53

Anyone had the chance to play the new F-5 from Weinman Instreuments at Gruhn's in Nashville?

http://guitars.com/inventory/mf8788-...nman-f-5-style

That's high praise from Mr. Gruhn right there!

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Bernie Daniel, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

yankees1

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## MikeEdgerton

It's a nice looking mandolin, it looks like they hit all the checkmarks.

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## William Smith

Seen this a few days ago, never heard of one but for sure has the looks! Great build.

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## Mark Gunter

Gorgeous mandolin. I wish I lived in the vicinity of a place like Gruhn's - but I'd have a hard time keeping away if that were so. I'd probably become a bum and never get any work done.

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DataNick, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

yankees1

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## yankees1

I wish there were sound clips available ! Beautiful mandolin and very good price with case and Waverly tuners , especially if it has a very good voice !!

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## HoGo

> I wish there were sound clips available ! Beautiful mandolin and very good price with case and Waverly tuners , especially if it has a very good voice !!


BTW its WIEnman, not WEInman.
Are you considering $5.5k appropriate for maker with virtually no track record (google won't find ANYTHING except his new web and the few pics linked from MC, no other history in luthiery). 

I do not question quality of the mandolins, the pictures look very nice. I just ask what is appropriate price of first builds of a new maker. It's quite easy these days to set up workshop with CNC (and many young folks can use computers and draw models themselves), make moulds and templates of all sorts (just browsing throuh MC will show you hundreds of possibilities how to make the job relatively easy for a handy man) and start building nice looking mandolins right away.

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William Smith

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## yankees1

It is all in the voice ! Very beautiful instrument however ! I wish I could hear it's voice !

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Adrian - _" Are you considering $5.5k appropriate for maker with virtually no track record .."_ You mean just like Steve Gilchrist / Lynn Dudenbostel / Michael Heiden / Tom Ellis & all the other top builders ??. Nobody had heard of those guys until they began building & selling.  Mr (i assume) Wienmann might have built instruments for many people before selling 'commercially' via a vendor.

   To my eyes,that mandolin 'looks' excellent re.build quality,& i couldn't imagine George Gruhn accepting it for sale if it didn't sound at least 'good'.  Better grab it before folk realise that there's another Steve Gilchrist etc. around !!, :Grin: 
                                                                                                                                     Ivan :Wink:

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## AlanN

Two misspellings of the builder's name within an 8-post thread...sheesh. 

It looks beautiful, and I'm sure it sounds and plays wonderfully. The price is the price.

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Bernie Daniel, 

mcgroup53

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## Mark Wilson

I like it all but the way the sunburst came out.  That must be a hard thing to perfect

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Lane Pryce

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## Mandolin Cafe

> Anyone had the chance to play the new F-5 from Weinman Instreuments at Gruhn's in Nashville?
> 
> http://guitars.com/inventory/mf8788-...nman-f-5-style
> 
> That's high praise from Mr. Gruhn right there!


For the benefit of search engines I changed the opening title spelling but it'll still show up in most of the posts. You can always change the thread title (spelling, etc.) by going into Advanced mode and editing the title but only for a three hour window on your own posts.

For a guy that consistently revels in poking fun at people in public for these type of errors must be embarrassing to make two in one short sentence. Off to Google _Instreuments_ now.

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mcgroup53, 

Timbofood

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## yankees1

At least the builder got the spelling correct on the head stock !

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Timbofood

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## AlanN

> At least the builder got the spelling correct on the head stock !


Too wise.

...and it ain't no Dudenbostel to crikey up...

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## Timbofood

It’s pretty, as for price to value? We can only start to speculate after the sale of a few instruments. If the market bears the price, the answer is clear. I’m not seeing any serial number so if it’s his first, it’s a bit “brave” but, hey, askin’ ain’t sellin’.
But for reference, what did your first F-5s go for Adrian? And I’m not being picky I’m just curious, I’ve heard sound clips of yours but, never heard anything about pricing.

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## Russ Donahue

As they say, this isn't Gruhn's first rodeo. He wouldn't bother with this if he didn't think he could get that price. And to get the price, he must feel it is worth it, which answers the question about an early build...at least in my mind. YMMV

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Ivan Kelsall

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## rockies

I wonder ..... if this mandolin is built by Jamie Wiens ? Jamie told me a while back he was working on a lower price version of his Loar type mandolins. Just wondering  !!  When I look at the workmanship, and I've seen a good number of his builds since he lived 20 minutes away.
Dave

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## Drew Streip

> I wonder ..... if this mandolin is built by Jamie Wiens ? Jamie told me a while back he was working on a lower price version of his Loar type mandolins. Just wondering  !!  When I look at the workmanship, and I've seen a good number of his builds since he lived 20 minutes away.
> Dave


Not according to the builder's site:

http://www.vintagebydesign.com/about.html

"Wes is a full-time second generation luthier, and is responsible for the lion's share of the building.  He grew up around his dad's violin shop, and in a house filled with music.  It wasn't unusual to have a Lloyd Loar mandolin or a couple of Italian fiddles around the house..."

"Welcome to Wienman Fine Instruments, where mandolins and guitars are hand crafted with passion, dedication, and attention to detail in the Blue Ridge Mountains just outside of Asheville, North Carolina."

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Ivan Kelsall

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## rockies

Drew thanks for the info, good looking mandolins. I haven't talked to Jamie Wiens for a while. He has moved from Cranbrook BC (near me) to Calgary Alberta about 5 hours away.  So I was just wondering when I saw the name WIENman.
Dave

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## HoGo

> It’s pretty, as for price to value? We can only start to speculate after the sale of a few instruments. If the market bears the price, the answer is clear. I’m not seeing any serial number so if it’s his first, it’s a bit “brave” but, hey, askin’ ain’t sellin’.


The wood and finish is certainly eye-catching and they (the builder and Gruhn) certainly bet on that but there are other aspects that I see here on MC such as resale value that depends on how consistent the builder is in quality (also tone, construction, looks, availability) Reminds me a bit of Troy Harris who emerged with totally impossibly clean work but somehow we don't see many of his mandolins - perhaps something with the pricing.... Also Wiens emerged with impressive work and high prices but that's another story.
I love to see other builders' work and often go visit their webpages to see how they are doing and so I did in this case not knowing the name. The pics of the workshop are pretty clean and the moulds etc show no sign of use so everything is fresh. I tried to find about his fathers violin shop and even his name found nothing but a rock band where the builder (or at least he looks like him) plays.




> But for reference, what did your first F-5s go for Adrian? And I’m not being picky I’m just curious, I’ve heard sound clips of yours but, never heard anything about pricing.


I don't want to turn it onto myself (I'm not in US and my pricing reflects local hourly wage, if you are really interested PM me) but I remember what Girouard went for few years back when he started and now I think he's still below the asking price of this Wienman, and he has been praised for consistency and beautiful work many many times.

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Bernie Daniel, 

Timbofood

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## yankees1

> The wood and finish is certainly eye-catching and they (the builder and Gruhn) certainly bet on that but there are other aspects that I see here on MC such as resale value that depends on how consistent the builder is in quality (also tone, construction, looks, availability) Reminds me a bit of Troy Harris who emerged with totally impossibly clean work but somehow we don't see many of his mandolins - perhaps something with the pricing.... Also Wiens emerged with impressive work and high prices but that's another story.
> I love to see other builders' work and often go visit their webpages to see how they are doing and so I did in this case not knowing the name. The pics of the workshop are pretty clean and the moulds etc show no sign of use so everything is fresh. I tried to find about his fathers violin shop and even his name found nothing but a rock band where the builder (or at least he looks like him) plays.
> 
> 
> I don't want to turn it onto myself (I'm not in US and my pricing reflects local hourly wage, if you are really interested PM me) but I remember what Girouard went for few years back when he started and now I think he's still below the asking price of this Wienman, and he has been praised for consistency and beautiful work many many times.


 What do Girouard F5's go for now ?

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## Luna Pick

Very nice. Reminds me stylistically of a Newson.

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## mrmando

Well, the story goes that when Gail Hester sent an F5 to Gruhn, he replied and told her he'd be glad to sell it for $8,500 and she could send him as many as she liked. I don't think a lot of us had heard of Gail at that point (a lot of us still haven't). 

Gruhn can afford to be discerning; I am certain he doesn't take mandolins from every builder who sends him one. His imprimatur is still worth something, I should think.

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## MikeEdgerton

Both of the owners of company that built this mandolin are members of the Cafe. I see no connection with Jamie W.

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Timbofood

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## RDWitte

> Anyone had the chance to play the new F-5 from Weinman Instreuments at Gruhn's in Nashville?
> 
> http://guitars.com/inventory/mf8788-...nman-f-5-style
> 
> That's high praise from Mr. Gruhn right there!


It's my understanding that Ronda Vincent is trying it out .

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## yankees1

> It's my understanding that Ronda Vincent is trying it out .


 George Gruhn lives in the same suburb/subdivision as Rhonda and he did show it to her and she thought it was very good. George said the only mandolin that stood above this Wienman was a Master Model Gibson that sells for $20,000.

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## mandotool

I played thru most of Gruhn's mandolin inventory last month...first time to the new shop....had a nice visit W/ George and Joe Spann ....A/B'd thru all the Loars etc.. also came across a Wienman....a real knockout ....pushed all my buttons......and wasn't even played in yet..
Keep an eye on this Wienman character...he'll be movin on up.......
to the east side....etc..
Capt. Obvious reporting

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Ivan Kelsall

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## FLATROCK HILL

> I wonder ..... if this mandolin is built by Jamie Wiens ? Jamie told me a while back he was working on a lower price version of his Loar type mandolins. Just wondering  !!





> Not according to the builder's site:
> 
> http://www.vintagebydesign.com/about.html


The first Richard Bachman novels had photos and full bio on the book jacket. All bogus.  :Popcorn:

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## mrmando

> The first Richard Bachman novels had photos and full bio on the book jacket. All bogus.


Exactly. So if Jamie Wiens wanted to craft a new identity, he'd choose a name more dissimilar to his real one.

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FLATROCK HILL

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Flatrockhill - _" The first Richard Bachman novels had photos and full bio on the book jacket. All bogus."_. The 'real' author got one heck of a kick out of doing that as well - he laughed all the way to the bank !!. It doesn't matter 'who's name' is on the cover (headstock), *quality* will always be recognised, 
                                                                                                                     Ivan :Wink:

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FLATROCK HILL

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## HoGo

> quality [/B]will always be recognised, 
>                                                                                                                      Ivan


Not related to the mandolin in OP:
Sure that is true and one pays for quality, but you cannot judge quality from few new examples. I did extensive repairs of deformed top on a Schoffield mandolin and heard that more than few of the maker from his early era suffer from thin tops...they can give you immediate WOW effect in tone department but when the top fails after few years it's no good. I heard of maker who bought back as many of his early ones as he could or offered trade for newer one as he considered them inferior to his curent production (at the time), not everyone goes that extra mile. If you buy from seasoned builder you know how he treats his customers and how well his instruments do after few years. No surprises.

Back to OP:
I would expect lifetime warranty backed by Gruhn for that mandolin. $5.5k mando deserves such warranty.

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## yankees1

> Not related to the mandolin in OP:
> Sure that is true and one pays for quality, but you cannot judge quality from few new examples. I did extensive repairs of deformed top on a Schoffield mandolin and heard that more than few of the maker from his early era suffer from thin tops...they can give you immediate WOW effect in tone department but when the top fails after few years it's no good. I heard of maker who bought back as many of his early ones as he could or offered trade for newer one as he considered them inferior to his curent production (at the time), not everyone goes that extra mile. If you buy from seasoned builder you know how he treats his customers and how well his instruments do after few years. No surprises.
> 
> Back to OP:
> I would expect lifetime warranty backed by Gruhn for that mandolin. $5.5k mando deserves such warranty.


 I will ask Will Wienman and George Gruhn today but I seriously doubt if Gruhn's would offer a life time's warranty on an instrument made by an independent builder.

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## Mandolin Cafe

We can think of a fair number of companies and individual builders charging prices we don't agree with and hold very strong opinions about but which we typically keep to ourselves. Based on what we know about this particular mandolin, the builder, his background and the people in Nashville that have seen their work and played it, this wouldn't be one of them.

What a wonderful welcoming mat we are as a community towards this builder who may be unfamiliar on a larger stage. Please let this post state the Mandolin Cafe does not endorse what we view as petty questioning and comments from a few made in this thread.

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Bob Clark, 

Don Grieser, 

Eldon Dennis, 

George R. Lane, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

jesserules, 

Luna Pick, 

MontanaMatt, 

Ron McMillan, 

Russ Donahue

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## yankees1

> We can think of a fair number of companies and individual builders charging prices we don't agree with and hold very strong opinions about but which we typically keep to ourselves. Based on what we know about this particular mandolin, the builder, his background and the people in Nashville that have seen their work and played it, this wouldn't be one of them.
> 
> What a wonderful welcoming mat we are as a community towards this builder who may be unfamiliar on a larger stage. Please let this post state the Mandolin Cafe does not endorse what we view as petty questioning and comments from a few made in this thread.


 As far as I can tell, this may be the first mandolin they have built to sell which does make me somewhat nervous to put money down on ! Just say'in ! I would like to take the step to buy but have mixed feelings !

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## mrmando

> As far as I can tell, this may be the first mandolin they have built to sell which does make me somewhat nervous to put money down on ! Just say'in ! I would like to take the step to buy but have mixed feelings !


Shrug. If I had Dudenbostel #1 or Monteleone #1 or Nugget #1, I doubt I would complain about it.

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Ivan Kelsall, 

Jeff Mando, 

Joey Anchors, 

Timbofood

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## Willie Poole

It seems to me that a new builder would want to get his product in as many hands as he can and asking a high price isn`t the way to go about it I'm my opinion, I don`t expect him to give it away but offering it a lesser price would seem like the way to get his product known to a lot of pickers...I`m sure that if Gruhan`s took it in to sell it must be a nice instrument...Time will tell...

    Willie

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## Luna Pick

After seeing their website I have no reason to think this is an inexperienced builder. Regardless, people can ask what they want, laissez-faire. By stocking their product and listing it in his store I suspect Mr. Gruhn probably had more than a little say in what price he felt comfortable representing for this instrument. My bet's on the builder.

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## Br1ck

I've played Pava #1` and certainly would love to own it.

This always comes back to what you are buying, a name that will impress your friends and be easy to resell after the new wears off, or a mandolin that you are buying because you want it to play for a good long while.

If you churn mandolins, you are always better off with the known vs the new.

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Willie - _"....and asking a high price isn't the way to go about it I'm my opinion,.."_. I fully understand your point Willie - BUT !!. The old open air market traders used to say that if you're selling pairs of shoes for $5 a pair & they're not selling - put 'em up to $15 a pair & they'll sell like hot cakes !!. People's perceptions of what constitutes a ''bargain'' is weird. _Too cheap & they can't be any good,so hike the price up & they'll be seen as a 'bargain'._

   IMHO - George Gruhn & the builder have evaluated the mandolin's qualities,both with respect to it's build & it's tone, & have placed a value on it commensuarate with those qualities in comparison with other mandolins. I know that the builder is relatively unknown,but so was Steve Gilchrist when he launched his first mandolin into the world,but if this mandolin sounds as good as it apparently does,it deserves to be ''priced at the appropriate level'',& in today's market $5,500 isn't a huge amount to pay for a  mandolin - purely MY opinion,
                                        Ivan :Wink:

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## jesserules

Lowering the price establishes the price.

Once that's done, good luck getting the price back up.

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## HoGo

Written by Gruhn: http://guitars.com/newsletter/critic...es-instruments

I would like to know how much critical the factors in the article are. For new maker only few of the factors come to play and it looks like $5K is acceptable for many players as starting point if ithe instrument plays and looks good. 
First Gilchrist mandolins didn't sell for big dollars, he started at approximately $1k back in early 80's and got to the prices he gets now over three decades of hard consistent quality work and I fully understand that. Reminds how much inflation has to do with prices...

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## Timbofood

As experience grows so will price and value, if Gruhn feels the value warrants that price who are we, the folks who do not have it in hand, to offer any criticism of the instruments value. 
New production people have to find their feet somehow, boutique builders can ask their price as they are essentially individually built.
When runs of a dozen are in production it becomes a little different cost/time ratio. 
In any event I think it’s very pretty if it sounds as good as it looks? If I had the money, I’d bite!
I wish the man as much luck as shop space allows!

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## Bob Clark

Granted, my product (wine) is very different from mandolins, but I'll bet some of the same principles apply.  I have learned that 'introductory low prices' don't pay.  People resent the increase when you shift to a more realistic price.  Prices that reflect the actual value of the product from the outset really do seem to work best for me.  

I also don't like underpaying artisans.  They deserve to be rewarded for their work.  If this Luthier's work merits that price, that is what it should be.

As for this mandolin, I greatly respect Mr. Gruhn's opinion.  It looks like a very well made instrument.  If I was in the market for this type of mandolin in this price range, I would give it careful consideration.  Why not?  If it sounds and plays as good as it looks, it is going to make somebody very happy.

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jesserules

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## Bernie Daniel

> .....I also don't like underpaying artisans.  They deserve to be rewarded for their work.  If this Luthier's work merits that price, that is what it should be.
> 
> As for this mandolin, I greatly respect Mr. Gruhn's opinion.  It looks like a very well made instrument.  If I was in the market for this type of mandolin in this price range, I would give it careful consideration.  Why not?  If it sounds and plays as good as it looks, it is going to make somebody very happy.


Actually, IMO no one should be under paid for their work.  

"If the luthier's work is merits that price,that is what he should be paid." 

I agree but that is the question.  It seems to me that at this time we have no evidence one way or the other about the "if" do we?

And as well do we know who set the price?  Was it the builder or the store?

Let's see if it is still for sale one month from today.  

I looked closely at the pictures of the mandolin and it shows up well and it is well appointed -- however I not sure that the scroll and the top sunburst look like $5,500 to me.  Your opinion might vary.

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Bob Clark, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Timbofood

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## yankees1

A couple of posters here on this thread have seen/played this mandolin and raved about the sound and looks ! And George Gruhn took this instrument to Rhonda Vincent and she loved it. George said this Wienman was  better than all of Rhonda's mandolins except the one Gibson Master model and this Gibson cost $20,000. ! But------------ none bought it either !  :Smile:

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Timbofood

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## Ivan Kelsall

Adrian - The prices for Steve Gilchrist's mandolins was virtually set by the buyers buying them & selling them on at an inflated price. SG realised that if his mandolins were so good as to attract higher prices,why shouldn't he,as the builder benefit,so he raised his prices. The rest as they say is history. Also,just how much was $1k worth close to 40 years ago ?. According to the latest US inflation calculator,$1k in 1980 was worth $3,150 US today. https://www.saving.org/inflation/inf...ount=1,000,000

 Not such a far cry from $5,500, allowing for increased material / production costs as well,
                                                                                                                        Ivan :Wink:

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## HoGo

> Also,just how much was $1k worth close to 40 years ago ?. According to the latest US inflation calculator,$1k in 1980 was worth $3,150 US today. https://www.saving.org/inflation/inf...ount=1,000,000
> 
>  Not such a far cry from $5,500, allowing for increased material / production costs as well,
>                                                                                                                         Ivan


The increase of material / production cost is already covered by the inflation coefficient.
I'd think that easy wide availability of materials today make it actually easier to source than 40 years ago when there were very few suppliers... Also total lack of competition and rising popularity of BG adds points to Gilchrist in 80's.

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## sgarrity

Looks like a nice mandolin. That asking price isn’t out of line, especially when you consider that George is making a cut too. A few years back here was a newer builder asking $10k for his F5. Now that was bold!  Best of luck to the builder!

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Bob Clark

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## yankees1

I probably would have bought it but this time I'm really looking for an Engelman top mandolin ( F5). Considering a Wienman or Norhfield Artist!

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## Jeff Mando

Interesting discussion -- pricing vs quality vs established track record/experience.  NFI and I don't know who Wienman is but most of these builders who "spring up out of nowhere" usually have 25+ years of experience working for somebody else that we might have heard of.  I don't know if that is the case here or not.  Quality speaks for itself, but pricing is another matter.  It takes nerve to say, "I won't work for less than so and so $$, but can be a good strategy.  Having Gruhn's backing doesn't hurt, IMHO.  Gruhn has probably seen more instruments than anybody out there.  Getting somebody to buy is another story.  I think on the local level in my community, how does one body shop or plumber get to charge twice as much as another place?  Usually quality of workmanship or reputation -- or both.  Let the people decide.....

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## Timbofood

Theres more than one member here who own some pretty serious instruments built by a builder who flies under the radar, save for a few frequencies and, his pieces and prices are Very serious. Just sort of echoing what Jeff says, some builders that spring uphave been doing this long before this amazing communication network we have now.
And showing up on the market and, selling two different things. When it sells than there might be something to talk about but, this thing has gotten a lot of press right here!

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## Denman John

Nice looking mandolin!  If I were in the market (and I'm not) for that style of mandolin, I'd give it consideration.  Some day it would be fun to go to Nashville and try all these dream mandolins and do some hands on comparing.  At this point in my mandolin journey, I would like some hands on time before laying down that kind of money. I am very happy with what I have and want in a mandolin spec, tone, feel and playability wise, so it would have to be something special. If the instrument speaks to you compared to all the other mandolins in Nashville at the time of comparison, then yeah, I think it would be worth it.

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## rcc56

I spent 15 minutes with this mandolin today while one of my students was trying out guitars downstairs.

It is a concert grade instrument with great tone and projection, good response across all the strings, and it does exactly what you tell it to do.  It is a lot of mandolin for the money, and as good as or better than other mandolins costing much more.

George said that it is Wienman's third mandolin, but the maker has spent decades working on violins.  It is a very fine instrument.

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Bernie Daniel, 

Bob Bass, 

Bob Clark, 

chasray, 

doc holiday, 

Ivan Kelsall

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## Ivan Kelsall

From the positive posts i've read on here re.this mandolin - if somebody has the $5,500 US, & the mandolin sounds as good as you'd like,buy it & wait for the eventual price hike,
                                                           Ivan :Wink:

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## yankees1

> I like it all but the way the sunburst came out.  That must be a hard thing to perfect


 I notice that a number of builders  darken the sunburst way too much especially on the top and it appears that I am looking through a key hole. I also would prefer much less sunburst/vignette on the top and back  but opinions vary and this is mine !

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## Eric Hanson

Rcc56 & Ivan, 
Thank you for taking the lead annd posting something positive. 
I agree with Scott. This forum has often been a place where many have found the strength and courage to build, and keep building, although they may face some struggles. It seems as though over the years there have been some who have begun to frequent this site with less than a positive view. Some posters seem to have left the forum location, and we don’t hear much from them. Could this be the reason. We may not ever know. 
With the positive take on this new-on-the-scene MANDOLIN luthier, our hope should be that they gain the strength and skills to continue to provide the mandolin world with more fine instruments to play. 
Builder Weinman, prasie to you for your instrument, and for the courage it took to tackle a more difficult to build instrument!! 
 :Mandosmiley:

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Ivan Kelsall

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## Ivan Kelsall

I had a really good look around the Weinman website yesterday & found _absolutely nothing_ that i didn't like !!. The builder's slogan - ''Vintage by design'' seems appropriate. The instruments do seem to have that 'old look' about them. Honestly,seeing what i did see,if i was in the US looking for a high quality mandolin at a decent price,i'd be taking a VERY close look at these :-
http://www.vintagebydesign.com/gallery.html,
                                                               Ivan :Wink:

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## yankees1

> I had a really good look around the Weinman website yesterday & found _absolutely nothing_ that i didn't like !!. The builder's slogan - ''Vintage by design'' seems appropriate. The instruments do seem to have that 'old look' about them. Honestly,seeing what i did see,if i was in the US looking for a high quality mandolin at a decent price,i'd be taking a VERY close look at these :-
> http://www.vintagebydesign.com/gallery.html,
>                                                                Ivan


  You are correct Ivan and I am ! Had I wanted/needed another Bluegrass instrument ( I have an Ellis A and F5 w/red spruce tops) I would have bought the Wienman at Gruhn's but I am looking for an Engelman top mandolin. I have made contact with Wil Wienman and I hope to order one this week.

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Ivan Kelsall

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## Timbofood

Very nice website, great photography.
With all the coverage the Wienman folks are getting here, I hope they sell some instruments!
Not to nit pick but, I really kind of like the very slight “tumblehome” on the treble point that is so often left out on modern built F bodies. It’s only personal but, there’s something just aesthetically more pleasant than having that point just shooting off straight. Small details make the whole just a little more “tasteful”.
The “Vintage by Design” is strange as a header, when the vintage design does carry the detail I’m talking about and,this is ignored by the builders. 
Good grief I’m getting more curmudgeonly by the hour!

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Ivan Kelsall

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## yankees1

I spoke ( over internet) with a man today that stopped by Gruhn's and played on several mandolins including an Altman, a Randy Wood and a Gibson and he told me the Wienman was in a different league than these other three and if he had any available cash he would have brought the Wienman home !! It must be a very good mandolin and Wienman, even if he is unknown must be quite a builder ! Some may think the price of $5500. is too high for an unknown builder but I think not, based on testimonials from people who have played it ! Even a Northfield is priced higher for the Artist model but it is a very good mandolin as well !

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Ivan Kelsall

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## Ivan Kelsall

I jokingly (maybe ?) mentioned to AlanN in an e-mail,that being in NC,he take a 440 mile round trip to look at & play a few Weinmans.
I had to make a 500+ mile round trip to TAMCO in Brighton UK to play my first 'good' mandolin & i've been down twice in total.

  I view having to travel as part of the fun in being able to choose a good instrument. I might be making a100 mile round trip some time this week to look at a 'used' parlour guitar that i'm thinking of buying.

   Being 'unknown' is simply that - it doesn't rob a builder of his / her inherent skills. All the top builders were 'unknown' at one time & many mandolin players were able to buy their mandolins at a price far less than they'd pay now = get 'em while you can, especially as Mr Weinman seems to be building exceptionally fine sounding mandolins. The prices are only going to go one way,but hopefully not for a while (?),
                                      Ivan :Wink:

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## yankees1

> I jokingly (maybe ?) mentioned to AlanN in an e-mail,that being in NC,he take a 440 mile round trip to look at & play a few Weinmans.
> I had to make a 500+ mile round trip to TAMCO in Brighton UK to play my first 'good' mandolin & i've been down twice in total.
> 
>   I view having to travel as part of the fun in being able to choose a good instrument. I might be making a100 mile round trip some time this week to look at a 'used' parlour guitar that i'm thinking of buying.
> 
>    Being 'unknown' is simply that - it doesn't rob a builder of his / her inherent skills. All the top builders were 'unknown' at one time & many mandolin players were able to buy their mandolins at a price far less than they'd pay now = get 'em while you can, especially as Mr Weinman seems to be building exceptionally fine sounding mandolins. The prices are only going to go one way,but hopefully not for a while (?),
>                                       Ivan


 Looking in my crystal ball, I see Ivan coming to the USA just to see/play and purchase a Wienman !

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## yankees1

Ordered a F5 Engelman top mandolin from the Wienman's today ! Gold EVO frets, gold Waverly tuners and gold James tailpiece ! To be delivered in 4-5 months ! Will post photos when it arrives !  :Smile:

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Charles E., 

Jeff Mando, 

Jill McAuley, 

mcgroup53

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## Ivan Kelsall

From yankees1 - _"..I see Ivan coming to the USA just to see/play and purchase a Wienman ! "_. I'm long overdue for a trip back to my father's 'homeland',but i don't see one happening any time soon - unfortunately. I can't help but feel that maybe Mr Weinman's going to be quite busy when word spreads regarding his build quality - & deservedly so.

   In view of him being regarded as a 'new guy',it would be interesting to know how many mandolins he's already built. What i see on his website weren't built by any 'beginner'  - i see top grade,superbly built mandolins,that would grace _any_ luthier's workbench,
               Ivan

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## Timbofood

I agree with you Ivan, that shop is well designed and in production! Maybe “newl” to the radar here but, there are guys out there that have been building for years we may or may not have heard of, or seen, except for a privileged few. Some of these amazing builders have even retired from the field, what we see and what we know are sometimes divided by a pretty fair margin.
Also Ivan, if you do get over here and find yourself in the area, I’ve just repainted the guest room... :Wink:

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FLATROCK HILL, 

Ivan Kelsall

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## Larry Simonson

With all this publicity the asking price maybe should have been 15K.

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## yankees1

> With all this publicity the asking price maybe should have been 15K.


 It will probably get there !

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## Timbofood

They ought to send a spiff to Mandolin Café! Or become a sponsor!

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## Ivan Kelsall

I'm thinking that thanks to the OP ''mcgroup53'',that we've _discovered_ another top flight builder in Mr Weinman.

  Timothy - i'd have been over to the US long before now if we didn't have 2 cats !. OK - it may sound stupid,but if i do come over,it'll be with my wife who's never visited the US. That would mean us putting the cats in a cat's home for the duration,& i just won't do it. Our animal companions are far more aware of 'things' than we ever imagined. I read recently that cat's memories stretch back at least 10 years. The only time we left our eldest cat with a friend of ours for 2 weeks while we were on holiday,he was half his weight when we got home - he simply wouldn't eat. Their lives & wellbeing a far more important to me than any holiday,& it would be very selfish of me to ask my wife to stay at home,
                                                                                                Ivan :Wink:

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Bob Clark, 

mcgroup53, 

Timbofood

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## Hubs

> I'm thinking that thanks to the OP ''mcgroup53'',that we've _discovered_ another top flight builder in Mr Weinman.
> 
> The only time we left our eldest cat with a friend of ours for 2 weeks while we were on holiday,he was half his weight when we got home -


Maybe, my wife should leave me for 2 weeks with that friend of yours. Perhaps it would work on me, too. :Smile:

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MontanaMatt

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## Timbofood

Ivan, I fully understand the proper “pet responsibility” and laud you for being a caring pet owner!
The offer is still open!

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Ivan Kelsall

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## yankees1

> Ivan, I fully understand the proper “pet responsibility” and laud you for being a caring pet owner!
> The offer is still open!


  Open your offer to all on the cafe ! I bet you would have some takers !  :Smile:

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## Timbofood

Thanks yankee!

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## yankees1

Two players I correspond with made a trip to Gruhn's "WITHOUT" calling first and  to see /play on this Wienman F5 but upon arrival found out it was sold and out the door !!  :Frown:  Moral of the story--- call first ! But George said this Wienman wouldn't last long on his rack !

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Ivan Kelsall

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## Ivan Kelsall

I wish it had been me !!!!!,
                                   Ivan :Frown:

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## William Smith

> I played thru most of Gruhn's mandolin inventory last month...first time to the new shop....had a nice visit W/ George and Joe Spann ....A/B'd thru all the Loars etc.. also came across a Wienman....a real knockout ....pushed all my buttons......and wasn't even played in yet..
> Keep an eye on this Wienman character...he'll be movin on up.......
> to the east side....etc..
> Capt. Obvious reporting


 Hey Buddy did you play that 41-42 F-5 with thee off center top burst that's been there for over 2 years? Also what about the 31 F-5?
I heard that the MONTE was a real great one? Thanx.

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## yankees1

I'm sure Gruhn's will stock more Wienman's after Will and Wes build more but he has to build mine first !!  :Smile:  I sent my deposit check to Will five days ago from Illinois to SC and not there yet !  :Frown:   Slow postal service !

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## yankees1

> I'm sure Gruhn's will stock more Wienman's after Will and Wes build more but he has to build mine first !!  I sent my deposit check to Will five days ago from Illinois to SC and not there yet !   Slow postal service !


   Will is in the process of building more WIEnman  :Smile:  mandolins for Gruhn's as George has requested more due to demand ! My check finally ( one week) arrived from Illinois to the Wienman shop ! Glad I got my name on the expanding waiting list before the price goes up ! My F5 should be completed in May and I will post photos !

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Jeff Mando, 

Jill McAuley, 

Timbofood

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## yankees1

This is an e-mail I received from George Gruhn regarding this F5 mandolin ! om: George Gruhn 
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Wienman F5 Mandolin

I have had this mandolin for less than a week, but I have had a very good chance to run it through its paces. The day it was delivered to me I took it backstage to the Opry where it was very well received by the staff band. I play mandolin myself as one of my primary instruments. This mandolin stacks up very well against our two Gilchrists, the Monteleone, and the Paul Newson, all of which cost considerably more. I showed it to Rhonda Vincent, who lives only a few blocks away from me in a  Nashville suburb. We compared it to all of her mandolins. It beat all but one of hers and that one is a Gibson Master Model with a list price of $20,000. The Weinmann is extremely well-balanced with good bass mid range, and treble. In my opinion, it is a far better sounding mandolin than a Gibson F-5L. It is without a doubt worthy to take on stage or studio and play professionally.

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aleaddict, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Timbofood

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## Ivan Kelsall

After reading George Gruhn's e-mail,it simply bears out what i thought straight off - Mr Weinman is a serious contender for a 'top spot' as a builder !!. Better get your orders in now folks !,
                                                                             Ivan :Grin:

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## William Smith

George knows his stuff! He's been at it forever well since the early days of festivals selling out of his trunk of his ride! I'd rather buy from Gruhn than most other dealers-he'll work with ya with trades if possible and his prices on high end stuff is far better than some other dealers I could mention! Even cheaper instruments he'll make a deal! He's always been very courteous and full of knowledge when I've talked with him on the phone! When recently I was trying to get a 39 F-5 from him "before it was bought for that darn museum at that college" he was patient and told me of other mandolins that my Uncle Gene Johnson tried out for me as Uncle Gene lives a bit closer by far, and was nice enough to go on the hunt for me-Gene told me the 39 was for sure "my style" but the Monte GA was a KILLER/not your tone bar Gibson sound! but the "Newson" was a real darling, very impressed with that one. but me I shy away from unknown names! I know that's Krazy but that's how I am when spending serious $, If I have to sell I'd like to get what I have back in something "But us mando nuts know sometimes we take a loss, I know I have. and will pry continue to do so!" I know that Weinman sure looked like a great fit and finish and if George said it was a great mandolin it IS. I trust his word!

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## yankees1

> George knows his stuff! He's been at it forever well since the early days of festivals selling out of his trunk of his ride! I'd rather buy from Gruhn than most other dealers-he'll work with ya with trades if possible and his prices on high end stuff is far better than some other dealers I could mention! Even cheaper instruments he'll make a deal! He's always been very courteous and full of knowledge when I've talked with him on the phone! When recently I was trying to get a 39 F-5 from him "before it was bought for that darn museum at that college" he was patient and told me of other mandolins that my Uncle Gene Johnson tried out for me as Uncle Gene lives a bit closer by far, and was nice enough to go on the hunt for me-Gene told me the 39 was for sure "my style" but the Monte GA was a KILLER/not your tone bar Gibson sound! but the "Newson" was a real darling, very impressed with that one. but me I shy away from unknown names! I know that's Krazy but that's how I am when spending serious $, If I have to sell I'd like to get what I have back in something "But us mando nuts know sometimes we take a loss, I know I have. and will pry continue to do so!" I know that Weinman sure looked like a great fit and finish and if George said it was a great mandolin it IS. I trust his word!


 Unknown builders ? Yes, I suppose you do take a chance ! A shortened version of a longer story ----- a friend stopped by Gruhn's many years ago and played on a guitar built by a completely unknown builder ! My friend said it was beautiful and well made and the sound was great ! But, the maker was unknown and at $1500. my friend thought it was a little brave for an unknown builder to be asking ! So, my friend passed on the guitar ! As the years went by this unknown builder became pretty successful and now it takes over twenty thousand dollars to buy one of his guitars and around that for one of his mandolins ! By the way, the builder's name Lynn Dudenbostel !  :Smile:

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Ivan Kelsall, 

j. condino, 

Johnny60, 

Timbofood, 

William Smith

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## Ivan Kelsall

All builders begin as 'unknowns' !. Some come through the ranks & become _top tier_ builders,others don't - but,that doen't mean that even their mandolins aren't truly excellent,simply 'not as well known' for the most part.

  Even if i was fortunate enough to be able to visit a store in order to buy a Dude. / Gil.,i would never pass up the chance of playing as many 'good' mandolins as i could - just on the off chance that one would be ''the one'' regardless of make. Could any one of us pass up the chance to play say, a Dearstone / Hutto / Altman / Elkhorn / Weins etc. - all very high quality mandolins.

   It's maybe a good job that i don't live in the US,i'd be a plague when it came to playing mandolins - i'd be there all week !, :Grin: 
                                                                                                                                                                      Ivan :Wink:

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addamr, 

Jesse Kinman, 

yankees1

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## yankees1

It won't be long until another Wienman F5 reaches the Gruhn shop ! I bet it won't  last very long there either  !

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## yankees1

I see on the "vintage by design-fine instruments" website by Wienman Mandolins that Jarrod Walker who plays with the Claire Lynch Bluegrass Band has bought the first Wienman mandolin sold at the retail level at Gruhn's !! Go to the site and see what Jarrod says about the Wienman mandolin ! Wow! I have heard and seen this group and Jarrod playing the mandolin and they are fantastic !!

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Ivan Kelsall, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

Good for all concerned! Merry Christmas to all!

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## yankees1

Wienman instruments including mandolins can now only be ordered/purchased through Gruhn Guitars  in Nashville ! Gruhn is the sole distributor for Wienman instruments . Prices on the way up !! Glad I have my order already in !!  :Smile:

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## Jeff Mando

I'm happy for you.  Sounds like a great builder.  At some point, enthusiasm begins to sound like a sales pitch, IMHO...

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Drew Egerton

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## Josh Levine

> I'm happy for you.  Sounds like a great builder.  At some point, enthusiasm begins to sound like a sales pitch, IMHO...


BUT, If you order right now, you'll get a 2nd one free! (Just pay additional shipping and handling)

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## Ivan Kelsall

From yankees1 - _"Prices on the way up !!"_. That could be a sure fire way of detering prospective customers. What was perceived to be ''a good mandolin at a very affordable price'',will now become a good mandolin at a not so affordable one for a lot of folks. Hiking the price up so soon wouldn't be a good idea IMHO.  If the asking price was $5,500 for the first one sold,why should the next one suddenly be more expensive ?.
    It's always seemed odd to me that folks would rather sell 1 at $8,000, than 10 at $5,500 (for example),
                                                                                                                                              Ivan :Wink:

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MontanaMatt

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## yankees1

> I'm happy for you.  Sounds like a great builder.  At some point, enthusiasm begins to sound like a sales pitch, IMHO...


 You know, I think you're right !! I really didn't intend it that way but you are correct ! I have no financial interest with the Wienman's or Gruhn's and I do have a Wienman on order but I just thought that at $5500. this "could be" a great investment besides being a great sounding instrument ! And since Gruhn's has taken over I assume that the price won't stay at that price much longer ! But, I will back off with my enthusiasm and glad you brought it to my attention ! Sorry !

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mcgroup53

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## HoGo

Raising the already quite high price (IMHO) would be wrong move and would look much like speculation with inflated pricing (I do spend a lot of time in violin makers community and there is some dirty business going on in the field - search for "Burgess integrity" and read if you wish). Competition at that price point is tight and full of seasoned names...
I'm looking forward to seeing more mandolins from Wienman workshop and hope thay will be as highly regarded by musicians as the "prototype".

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## yankees1

> Raising the already quite high price (IMHO) would be wrong move and would look much like speculation with inflated pricing (I do spend a lot of time in violin makers community and there is some dirty business going on in the field - search for "Burgess integrity" and read if you wish). Competition at that price point is tight and full of seasoned names...
> I'm looking forward to seeing more mandolins from Wienman workshop and hope thay will be as highly regarded by musicians as the "prototype".


 Raising the price was pure speculation on my part !! Not from Gruhn's or Wienmans ! If the demand continues, which I believe it will, I wouldn't be surprised that a higher price will be in the near future but that is my opinion only !

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Ivan Kelsall

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## Ivan Kelsall

Everybody understands higher prices as the costs of materials etc. increases. Raising the price of an item,to make more money is also understandable 'if' the retailer is facing _increased overhead costs_ as well,but without one or the other, it's just profiteering. However,if i remember correctly,Northfield hiked their prices up not too long after receiving a lot of good reviews & they still sold well.

    I think that raising the price of any item simply on the back of favourable reviews would leave a nasty taste in folk's mouths - but,_realistically_,the original asking price of $5,500 US is pretty low by today's standard - so...... !,
                                                                                                                                           Ivan :Wink:

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yankees1

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## Bob Clark

> I think that raising the price of any item simply on the back of favourable reviews would leave a nasty taste in folk's mouths - but,_realistically_,the original asking price of $5,500 US is pretty low by today's standard - so...... !,


Seems as if we've come full-circle.  I gave a somewhat similar comment back in posting 42.  Who can predict future pricing?  I know that I cannot.  I guess we will need to wait and see.  In any event, this one seems to be a nice mandolin at a good price,

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yankees1

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## yankees1

> Everybody understands higher prices as the costs of materials etc. increases. Raising the price of an item,to make more money is also understandable 'if' the retailer is facing _increased overhead costs_ as well,but without one or the other, it's just profiteering. However,if i remember correctly,Northfield hiked their prices up not too long after receiving a lot of good reviews & they still sold well.
> 
>     I think that raising the price of any item simply on the back of favourable reviews would leave a nasty taste in folk's mouths - but,_realistically_,the original asking price of $5,500 US is pretty low by today's standard - so...... !,
>                                                                                                                                            Ivan


 Another reason for a price hike in my eye would be supply and demand ! I don't know Mr. Wienman's order schedule but when the demand is overwhelming and they can't keep up then I think some sort of price increase in inevitable ! Also, Gruhn is the sole distributor for Wienman instruments so I'm sure George is pushing Wienman mandolins especially at that price level which is low in my opinion for a high quality F5 model compared to other high quality instruments. Northfield F's start at $5800 ! Just my opinion !  :Smile:

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## Mandolin Cafe

> Another reason for a price hike in my eye would be supply and demand ! I don't know Mr. Wienman's order schedule but when the demand is overwhelming and they can't keep up then I think some sort of price increase in inevitable ! Also, Gruhn is the sole distributor for Wienman instruments so I'm sure George is pushing Wienman mandolins especially at that price level which is low in my opinion for a high quality F5 model compared to other high quality instruments. Northfield F's start at $5800 ! Just my opinion !


This discussion has run its course. I've been uncomfortable with this for some time now. At least one other person has stated his concern publicly and I've been contacted by other members and external parties that are not members that this is being discussed like it's some kind of financial investment. Everyone deserves the joy of ordering a new instrument and we congratulate you, but that doesn't give anyone the right to speculate wildly about the pricing decisions of the builder or his lack of, and the store representing his work. Some of the comments being driven by all of this, no builder should have to be party to. We can do better.

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barry, 

bennyb, 

Bob Clark, 

danielpatrick, 

Drew Egerton, 

F-2 Dave, 

JEStanek, 

Loubrava, 

Mark Seale, 

mcgroup53, 

MikeEdgerton, 

MontanaMatt, 

oliverkollar, 

Steve Sorensen

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