# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Brian Dean Grand Concert Mandolin

## Bernie Daniel

The piece entitled, "Artist to Artist - 10 Minutes with Avi Avital" which was an interview of Avital, conducted by New York mandolinist Joe Brent, was certainly interesting -- and some great music was provided as well.  

Being entirely a folk mandolinist I was very interested in the discussion of the two state-of-the-art classical mandolins: the Arik Kerman mandolin of Avital, and the Dean Grand Concert mandolin of Brent.  

I do not know too much about either but I did read up some on the Dean and watched the You Tube video about the mandolin on the Mandoisland site.


Aside from the many remarkable aspects of this mandolin including the beautiful top board (eastern red cedar?), the slotted headstock, the unusual shape of the sound hole, and the very wide nut, to me, the most interesting feature of this mandolin is the depth of the body and the outer "false" bottom that allows the inner "true" bottom to resonate freely.  Like a built-in tone guard I guess?   

My question is would it improve the sound even more if outer bottom was open in places?  Counter argument I guess is most of the projection comes from the top board anyway.

Sure would like to see more discussion of these new classical mandolins -- or maybe I have just not been attentive enough?   :Smile:

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## joebrent

Hi Bernie, Joe Brent here. Thanks for the kind words! Avi and I had a lot of fun doing that interview, and of course I'm over the moon about his Grammy nomination.

There was a *lengthy thread about this instrument here* last year when I first got it, where Brian answered a lot of your questions (which, not surprisingly, others had as well). But I can tell you that the 'false back' is indeed open just a bit, which you can see in the attached pic. It functions as you say,  like a built-in tone guard. Thus the true depth of the instrument isn't quite so much as it appears at first, about a half-inch less than the 'combined' depth. Also, the top wood is walnut, not red cedar -- though that would have probably been my guess as well, since walnut is so rare as a top wood!

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## Gerry Cassidy

Just an amazing piece of work! I'd LOVE the chance to play one.... *sigh*  maybe someday!

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## Bernie Daniel

Hi Joe,  Honor to hear from you directly!  Thanks so much for the reply and the information on the mandolin.  I need to start paying some more attention to classical/semi-classical mandolin and your videos on YT are a great place to begin!  Wonderful music!  Thanks again.

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## Chris Biorkman

That mandolin is unbelievably creative. Sounds great too.

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## Bill Snyder

> That mandolin is unbelievably creative. Sounds great too.


Wonderful instrument in very talented and practiced hands.

BTW Where is Mr. Dean these days? In looking at his profile he has not logged in since August. I miss seeing his beautiful work.

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## Chris Biorkman

His website says he isn't taking orders in 2011.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Hi Bernie, Joe Brent here. Thanks for the kind words! ...There was a *lengthy thread about this instrument here* last year when I first got it, where Brian answered a lot of your questions (which, not surprisingly, others had as well). But I can tell you that the 'false back' is indeed open just a bit, which you can see in the attached pic. It functions as you say,  like a built-in tone guard. Thus the true depth of the instrument isn't quite so much as it appears at first, about a half-inch less than the 'combined' depth. Also, the top wood is walnut, not red cedar -- though that would have probably been my guess as well, since walnut is so rare as a top wood!


Reading the details I note the "real" (inner) back plate of this exciting new mandolin is carve spruce. 

Interesting to ponder the sound of a mandolin with the overall same set up except now with a carved spruce top board is substituted for the walnut one?  

Such a mandolin would now have *two* spruce sound boards.  Now, let's extent this stream of blue sky neural processing a bit further and say then let's suggest that we "energize" both spruce sound boards with a post right under the bridge like a fiddle.  Then would we get even a louder more powerful mandolin?

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## MikeEdgerton

> There was a lengthy thread about this instrument here last year when I first got it....


I'm glad I read farther down, I was getting ready to post the link  :Smile:

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## Bernie Daniel

> I'm glad I read farther down, I was getting ready to post the link


Thanks anyway!

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## labraid

Hey guys,
Sorry to have been away so long, it's been a crazy year. Glad to see folks are still enjoying this mandolin, I get a kick out of every new thing Joe does with it. An amazing player to be sure, one we're indebted to for his creativity.
So for myself, I'm not going anywhere. I decided to halt orders for 2011 because I have an increasingly long slate of builds that I want to try my hand at, all mandolin related, and to be for sale  :Smile: . I had gotten behind on my current list as we're new to owning a home, my girlfriend and I, and there in itself is was the challenge of the year. Leaky basements, leaky roofs, renovations, making things right. To top it off we got a new (to us) truck to help us out around the place, and I do all my own mechanical work when possible. So little things have been delaying me late this past year. That's all changing now at the end of the year, and I'm happy to say 2011 will be a clean slate for me. I have many orders to get through, but by mid-year you should be seeing some offshoots coming off the bench. I tend to be most productive, I find, when I am at complete liberty, and that's what I'm setting up for, at least for a short interval. After that I should be back, taking requests as I always have. 

If anyone has any questions, I'm always happy to help out.  :Chicken:  :Chicken:

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## Jim Garber

> Reading the details I note the "real" (inner) back plate of this exciting new mandolin is carve spruce. 
> 
> Interesting to ponder the sound of a mandolin with the overall same set up except now with a carved spruce top board is substituted for the walnut one?  
> 
> Such a mandolin would now have *two* spruce sound boards.  Now, let's extent this stream of blue sky neural processing a bit further and say then let's suggest that we "energize" both spruce sound boards with a post right under the bridge like a fiddle.  Then would we get even a louder more powerful mandolin?


On that subject and with my usual note that there is nothing really new under the sun:



> The non-keyboard ViViTone instruments were unique and featured a laminated and very-rigid rim with both the soundboard and the backboard made from spruce.


 (from Roger Siminoff.

This is not to cast aspersions on Brian's work or Joe's input into the design.

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## labraid

> On that subject and with my usual note that there is nothing really new under the sun

I find that this kind of thought process is a real non-starter to creative thinking. One has to learn to wonder, even in the face of cold, hard answers lying in wait in some cold, hard book. One must learn to dream and to wonder; answers are, often as not, not what we seek.. Even as we appear to be asking the very question.  :Smile:

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DougC

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## Glassweb

> > On that subject and with my usual note that there is nothing really new under the sun
> 
> I find that this kind of thought process is a real non-starter to creative thinking. One has to learn to wonder, even in the face of cold, hard answers lying in wait in some cold, hard book. One must learn to dream and to wonder; answers are, often as not, not what we seek.. Even as we appear to be asking the very question.


amen!

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## Jim Garber

Oh, Brian... I certainly did not mean that there is no room for creativity here only that you may very well be walking a mildly worn path. Surely you can use the inspiration of someone like Lloyd Loar and put your own creative stamp on it or bring a contemporary touch to whatever work he started. I doubt, for instance, that there is a violinmaker out there who would admit no debt to Stradivari, Amati, Guarneri and others and yet can still put their own soul and creativity into their work.

Besides, Brian, you know that I am one of your early fans. Maybe you missed my last note above.

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## labraid

> Surely you can use the inspiration of someone like Lloyd Loar and put your own creative stamp on it or bring a contemporary touch to whatever work he started.

This sentence is like a shotgun to my brains, I just can't believe you're not an alien now Jim Garber.

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## hank

Jim your looking in the box again seeing the limits and signatures of authenticity of the six inner walls.  The very nature of creative thought escapes these confines.  All things are made new under the sun from moment to moment.

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## Jim Garber

Sorry, folks, but I have to disagree you: No one has ever lived in a vacuum. Certainly Loar drew on instrument-makers in the past and even Stradivari or Amati did not come up with their ideas without ever having seen another instrument. 

I never said that this design of Brian's was unoriginal, only that others have used elements in the past and that the precursors were certainly even illustrious ones. My statements never doubted anyone's creativity. This is a very unique instrument but it still is a mandolin with elements that resemble one. 

I should have rephrased my statement above, Brian. I did not mean that you personally were copying Loar only that someone could and still be creative. There are many contemporary makers who are out there doing just that. 

"shotgun to my brains"? I hope you are just kidding, Brian.

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## labraid

I'll give you a little insight into my design process. First, I set out to create a mandolin based on tonal requirements set out by the player. There are a hundred variables to this, and therefore a hundred variables to consider in the design. My first concern is not aesthetics, my first concern is 8 strings tuned GDAE, with the properties meant to please the ear of the player and myself. I strive to build mandolins. I do not strive to create new gadgety things. New things happen of themselves, because of tonal dictates which necessitate the breaking the bounds which you, the audience, tend to agree upon as standards. Because you have seen them so many times repeated. My concern has nothing to do with repetition or non-repetition. If the perfect design is a roundish guitar looking thing with one bout missing and a dinky swirly bit that does nothing (which it won't be), then so be it, my drawing will flow onto the paper in such a way. I never said that I was out to innovate, I never said I wanted to create something that has never existed before. That is not my goal. That is creation for creation's sake. That is trying to invent a new mousetrap, because _you_ want to have one under _your_ belt too. My problem is that mandolins in North America don't sound the way I think they should, for the purpose that I think they are best put to. And no it didn't start out this way, it developed as I did, naturally. I aim to build something that does sound the way I think it should, for the purpose that I like best, and I'll do what neds to be done to get there, even if it is sitting down in a white room, on the floor with a sketchpad in my hand, a picture of the artist in my head, their standing on a stage playing the instrument they've described to me, listening to the instrument that I hear them playing, and it flowing onto the paper as it needs to be. My inspiration, visually, comes from Renaissance architecture. As did Amati's, and practically anyone who had eyes in Rennaissance Italy. And tonally, I prefer the sound of the lute to all other stringed instruments. If I can build a lute with 8 strings which sounds the way I think it should with the design constraints of GDAE, A440, and a generally short string length as governed by the laws of physics, then my life will have had purpose. It is a huge assumption on anyone's part that I strive to be the first around any bend, for the sake of being the first. I consider that a small man's goal.
I ask, did anyone thank their cereal bowl publicly this morning for holding their cereal? Did you thank the ground? Did you thank the sun for being warm? No, these are things which are understood in the world. We don't need people to come out and tell everyone that they are unthankful, or even unoriginal for eating cereal, walking on the ground, or having sun hit them. No I'm not the first to build a mandolin. Neither is this high school Obvious Things 101. I'm sorry for getting ticked, but we're all smarter than that here. And I'm sorry too, Jim, for being angry but you cut off a thread which was enjoying a rare moment of wonder about things, and you came and shut the door on that, as tends to be the case around this joint, which has very little wonder left in it. ...why I stay away. I say this generally, you know, broadcasting: there are questions in the world like "what string length would be best for my specific situation?", and there are questions like "I wonder what x and y would sound like together!?" One is a question, the other a invitation to collective musing. Google has already destroyed much our society's ability to wonder, for any length greater than ten seconds, and I'm sorry but this trend and everything that accompanies and/or resembles it annoys me to the core. I'm sorry for being the way I am, but it's who I am and I love you all still. Let's all play some mandolin. I need a break.

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DougC

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## Jim Garber

> And I'm sorry too, Jim, for being angry but you cut off a thread which was enjoying a rare moment of wonder about things, and you came and shut the door on that, as tends to be the case around this joint, which has very little wonder left in it. ...why I stay away. I say this generally, you know, broadcasting: there are questions in the world like "what string length would be best for my specific situation?", and there are questions like "I wonder what x and y would sound like together!?" One is a question, the other a invitation to collective musing.


Wow, Brian... I think you are misreading my intent completely and perhaps I misunderstood yours. Yes, my comment was directed to that comment above from another poster about double soundboards. So I directed that poster to a case where that had been done in the past. I don't see in any way how that has derailed the thread or stopped anyone's ability to wonder. 

I have always admired your work and have followed it over the years.

I agree with you... you need a break. One small fact from me and you take it as a personal attack or questioning your creative process. Please... your talent is way bigger than that. I apologize for the effect this has had on you but I think you are way overboard in this instance.

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## labraid

If you have to qualify a thought with "This is not to cast aspersions on Brian's work or Joe's input into the design", you might just want to think twice about what your motivation appears to be... My reply was straightforward, and then we start talking about my debt to Lloyd Loar. Your words were mildly careless, and I'll leave it at that.

Worn path walker indeed... Would you say this to family and friends? "Remember, you are redundant; everyone else has been there, everyone else has done that." Mildly, *Mildly* careless I'm sorry... All I ask is that you think twice.. It's not a big thing.

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## Jesse Harmon

Apologizing for the "'effect on you" (probably should be affect) is no apology at all.  I have managed to get so much great info on this site I would hate to offend anyone and miss out on their accumulated wisdom but I have to say as a new member it is a little off putting to see this kind of impatience in a thread.  I was more or less sarcastically put down for starting a thread that had previously been discussed.  (this member also did the same thing to someone else)  Does this mean there might not be some new thought on the subject, or a newer member that might not want to weigh in on the subject.  This particular person has encyclopedic knowledge of the site and that is extremely useful, especially to know about the specific past thread, and I wouldn't want to offend him and miss out on that, but why this sarcastic impatience?  I think there is a tad bit of arrogance showing up in these posts.

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## Scott Tichenor

Time for the discussion between two individuals here to be moved private to PM if they wish to continue to hash this out. This was a beautifully done video of a great instrument and one of my favorite musicians, and that should remain the focus.

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## journeybear

"Effect" is correct. Usage of "effect" and "affect" commonly misunderstood. Otherwise, I have no horse in this race, other than Civility, a late entry and fading fast ...  :Whistling:

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## labraid

I don't think Jim is one of the sarcastic ones.. In fact I know it not to be the case. Nor do I think his intent was misplaced. What I would like Cafe members to do is to ask themselves why they are posting sometimes. Is it out of habit? Is it because we're just used to posting links to old information so we can end the conversation as quickly as possible and get on with our lives? Or is it because we have some genuine underlying passion, a true reason for doing so. I think what happens, in fact I know what happens is that we get used to checking x or y site after lunch, let's say. We're not there to genuinely be interested in anything, it's habit and we usually pass the time this way, so why not now... And before you know it we're reading a question that we've heard a hundred times before. And "we know the answer", like a Jeopardy challenge. But the new guys that come along, they have genuine new interest in this subject, and don't want to read old information they can no longer participate in. It's a genuine door-smack on the arse getting posted a LINK. Or a dried up piece of information that has no more than ten words attached to it. It kills the passion for this instrument, it kills our community, and it kills participation in creating anew. Personally I think there needs to be a link quota system, so when an account has posted more than x links in a month, they can't anymore, you're done and find something better to do. It would kill the tendency to do all of the above, which I think everyone but the linkER finds pleasure in, and it would create a new culture of participation.

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DougC

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## MikeEdgerton

I can't even begin to figure out how this conversation has turned the way it has but I can tell you that this site is the largest repository of mandolin information in the world. To ignore the older posts on a subject is akin to going to the library and simply reading the periodicals and not going through the reference section. I have no idea who this is aimed at but there's some serious misconceptions being put forward in some of these posts. If a link to a past discussion is posted there is no reason that a discussion can't continue but it seems a little short sighted to simply dismiss the old discussions as stale information. Do we have to reinvent the wheel for every thing we do? That seems a waste of time. There is always room for new thought but that doesn't mean you throw away the old knowledge.

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## labraid

People can harvest information anywhere they choose, if they choose. But let them choose to do a search if they want to harvest links and hard facts. Everyone is quite capable of performing searches in the age of Google, no one is special in that capability. People come to a forum precisely because it is not a library -- they come to talk, and when the talking stops, the forum dies. What I and some others are trying to tell the management of this site, is that it is BORING to be smacked with links all the time, and if management doesn't want to listen, if management doesn't want to evolve, if nothing can change because it is so perfect it doesn't have to, then it will go the way of the Edsel....

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## MikeEdgerton

OK, now that I've determined who that all was pointed at, let me assure you Brian that not everyone can find old information, even using Google. I'll also point out that the link that I was going to post was posted in a previous message to mine by your own customer Joe Brent. If you have an issue, you might aim it at him. Beyond that, I will continue to point people at old information as it isn't stale, it's historical. I'm sure that you have reference books that you refer to. Look at those links as being one in the same. By the way, Edsel's sell for a fortune these days.

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## labraid

I and others have said what they have to say...... I respectfully disagree with your (main) point.

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## mtucker

Slightly off topic, but the Edsel's failure was not due to the fact that Ford failed to innovate, quite the opposite actually. The Edsel was highly innovative for it's time and had been drawn up for a number of years prior to its launch, some say they waited too long. It was supposed to represent one of Ford's crowning achievements and as such wore Edsel's name.

It really failed because it was too pricey for its time, the economy was just coming out of the tank (bad timing) and Ford made perhaps one of the greatest marketing mistakes in their history by over-hyping the car and its capabilities/innovation coupled by the fact that they prevented the general public from seeing it (it's a big secret) before one could actually purchase the car.  :Smile: 

BOT: Brian, your work speaks for itself and you have some great stuff going on in the Nord country. Joe you are a terrific player, I enjoyed your lighthearted interview with Avi.

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## labraid

Thanks for the welcome change in mood and subject. :) And thank you.
Old cars are the greatest...

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## hank

I think we can add Betamax/VHS, Apple/microsoft and many more to the Edsels fate.  To my mind commercial success and bean counting have nothing whatsoever to do with Genius.  Brian I applaud you and your work and hope you'll keep sharing your joy of invention with us.

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## Bernie Daniel

> I think we can add Betamax/VHS, Apple/microsoft and many more to the Edsels fate.  To my mind commercial success and bean counting have nothing whatsoever to do with Genius.  Brian I applaud you and your work and hope you'll keep sharing your joy of invention with us.


And "New" coca cola....

Hank, I completely agree with your statement about bean counting and genius -- there is one link however and that is without geniuses there would be a lot few beans to count!  Thinking out of the box --  so many cases of where that kind of experimentation in one area lead to major advancements in a totally different arenas.

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## journeybear

> ... It really failed because it was too pricey for its time, the economy was just coming out of the tank (bad timing) and Ford made perhaps one of the greatest marketing mistakes in their history by over-hyping the car ...


True enough, though the economy was still in a recession. Still, bad timing.  :Wink:  Here are a couple of links.

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## labraid

Here's a link too  :Redface:

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## mtucker

hehehe...niiice! ..well he most certainly changed the paradigm of a rock frontman, with that flute..didn't he. 
 :Disbelief:   :Grin:  :Grin:

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## Dan Hoover

wait..i'm missing something?.. :Disbelief: ..Whom is playing the mando in the Edsel?

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## journeybear

I played one while driving a Triumph TR-6 once, which is neither here nor there.  Perhaps Edsel Ford played mandolin?  :Confused:  I dunno. This is one confusing thread.

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## mtucker

> I played one while driving a Triumph TR-6 once, which is neither here nor there.  Perhaps Edsel Ford played mandolin?  I dunno. This is one confusing thread.


...well at least you were in a TR6 and not a sprite! 

okay, back to mandolins..wait...Edsel's old man (Henry), certainly helped gibson discover lacquer and color since DuPont developed it initially for his cars in the mid-20's! okay, how's that for a degree or two of separation...?

really, bot ... i think brian's complex box of curves and cuts looks sweeeeet and just sounds stellar with Joe at the wheel! yay!!!

 :Mandosmiley:  :Mandosmiley: 

second thought ... the old bugeyes were pretty cute! :Laughing:

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## DougC

Like Brian, I get a little tired of hack-kneed comments. I also like to follow good meaty discussions and I go looking for them here. Often there are links that lead me to some other planet and I wonder what the heck happened? I also worry that the discussions can become boring or worse; just think about the hype that drove Hans Bentrup out. So friends, let's keep this on track and honest. O.K.?

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## Chris Biorkman

> Just think about the hype that drove Hans Bentrup out.


Hans got mad and left because someone sold one of his instruments, which they had every right to do without being harrassed.

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## journeybear

> ... let's keep this on track and honest. O.K.?


Actually, let's let this one fade away, which I thought it was doing. Why stir things up again? Clearly something about links or the way they are used touched a nerve with Brian and the discussion got way strange and heated, far beyond where it should have been.

Links are a useful tool if they lead to something related to the topic. For example, my Edsel links, which were an attempt at defusing this volatile discussion. Which I thought was pretty much done. And should be, by my reckoning. I think the original topic was covered, and overshadowed by the derailment. Might be better to start a new thread on the OT than keep this one going. Just my 2¢.

So, on a slightly less threatening topic ... BTW, mtucker, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were some interaction between those captains of industry in the Wolverine State. Such a thought was running through my mind but didn't feel like researching it.  :Wink:

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## Bernie Daniel

> Actually, let's let this one fade away, which I thought it was doing. Why stir things up again? Clearly something about links or the way they are used touched a nerve with Brian and the discussion got way strange and heated, far beyond where it should have been.
> 
> Links are a useful tool if they lead to something related to the topic. For example, my Edsel links, which were an attempt at defusing this volatile discussion. Which I thought was pretty much done. And should be, by my reckoning. I think the original topic was covered, and overshadowed by the derailment. Might be better to start a new thread on the OT than keep this one going. Just my 2¢.
> 
> So, on a slightly less threatening topic ... BTW, mtucker, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were some interaction between those captains of industry in the Wolverine State. Such a thought was running through my mind but didn't feel like researching it.


Somewhere in my brain a neuron is flashing that someone in the Ford family (maybe not Edsel) did play mandolin -- it would hardly be surprising given to popularity of the instrument in the early 1900's. I think I am remembering a picture I saw several decades ago at the either the Henry Ford Museum or Greenfield Village -- I cannot recall which.

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## mandolirius

> Hans got mad and left because someone sold one of his instruments, which they had every right to do without being harrassed.


Chris, I think that's a bit of an unfair accounting. Builders wind up being sort of armchair psychologists because they deal with some people that are a little neurotic. We've all heard the stories. The way I understood it is that the years of trying to satisfy the demands that customers can make, dealing with their worrying ways and eventually come up with exactly what they are wanting finally had an impact. You try so hard so please someone, put your heart and soul into the instrument and find that someone is selling it not too long after receiving it.

You're right. You buy it and it's yours to do with what you will. But to leave the impression that one person selling an instrument caused Hans to have a hissy fit and flee the site strikes me as well, not quite accurate let's put it that way.

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## Dave Cohen

It is most certainly not accurate.  Speaking with my builder's hat on, Mandolirius has made a point that does resonate with builders.  Speaking strictly as one of Hans' friends, I can say without qualification that Hans is far too mature to just get mad and leave with his marbles.  I am going to assume that Chris did not intend to be dismissive of Hans, but his remark did have the effect of being dismissive, particularly since Hans is not participating in the discussion.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

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## brunello97

It's Twine Time, but you know, I only have a minute to check in here after dinner and I'm not genuinely interested in anything.

Man, what a mess. Shotgun!? Shoot him before he runs now!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtvBdgyDH8U

I'm using up a bit of my quota......

Mick

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## journeybear

> Somewhere in my brain a neuron is flashing that someone in the Ford family (maybe not Edsel) did play mandolin -- it would hardly be surprising given the popularity of the instrument in the early 1900's. I think I am remembering a picture I saw several decades ago at the either the Henry Ford Museum or Greenfield Village -- I cannot recall which.


I've done some websearching in my usual hamfisted way and found nothing worth reporting, other than a mention of Henry Ford's involvement in a series of fiddle contests in the 1920s (no citation). That ain't no part of nothing, and there may be more to this story, but so far I am not encouraged to keep searching.

Ford probably had more contact with the "other" Orville, Mr. Wright.  :Wink:

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## billhay4

So, Brian, what was it about Joe's tonal needs that led you to do a false back? Was it the need for absolute clarity of note? or something else?
Bill
Having gone back and re-read the original thread, I withdraw this question. Brian explained it then and, like the old man I am, I promptly forgot it.

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## MandoNicity

> ...well at least you were in a TR6 and not a sprite! 
> 
> okay, back to mandolins..wait...Edsel's old man (Henry), certainly helped gibson discover lacquer and color since DuPont developed it initially for his cars in the mid-20's! okay, how's that for a degree or two of separation...?
> 
> really, bot ... i think brian's complex box of curves and cuts looks sweeeeet and just sounds stellar with Joe at the wheel! yay!!!
> 
> 
> 
> second thought ... the old bugeyes were pretty cute!


Hey!  I owned a Bug Eye Sprite and it was a hum dinger!  [as long as you could afford your own personal mechanic]   :Wink:

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## Irénée

Yes, Nice mandolin...

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