# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  Replacing Worm Over with Worm Under

## Ranger Bob

I just got a nice modern build F3. The only thing I dont like about it is it has worm over reverse direction tuners. Im looking at a set of worm under normal direction tuners for possible replacement. Post spacing is the same. Would there be a problem with plate placement?

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## MikeEdgerton

They make worm over normal direction tuners. If you simply use worm under you'll have to plug and redrill the holes or you may have problems with the plates or the buttons. Take a look at the images on *Paul Hostetter's tuner page*. What kind of tuners are on it now?

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## Ranger Bob

Thanks Mike. I’m not exactly sure what’s on it right now. The base plates are configured like Grovers but the shafts are black. I think the answer is as you suggested — stay with worm over but get ones with normal direction. I think Gotoh makes those and I think I saw that Grover also makes them.

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## MikeEdgerton

Arkansasmusicworks is an eBay seller that sells Gotoh tuners (from AllParts) cheap. The best price on nickel Gotoh worm over tuners you'll find. I bought a set from them a while back when I was on my quest for worm over tuners for my mandola. I finally scored a rare but dear set of Waverly worm tuners. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Gotoh-M...item547bf9fd0a

I scored a set of MOP buttons for them off eBay as well and swapped out the Phillips screws for slot head screws. They are around here someplace. 

Older Grover shafts were black. The new Grover worm over tuners turn the wrong way as well. The Rubner worm over tuners are really nice but haven't been available for a while. There are a few threads here that I documented my search in. There was a  Kluson reproduction of the 50's to 60's style worm over that may or may not still be available.

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Jim Garber

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## MediumMando5722

Why are reverse tuners a thing?

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## MikeEdgerton

A manufacturer can simply use the same worm gear used on worm under tuners to make a worm over set of tuners but they will turn backwards. It's really that simple. That is the only reason. Some people apparently aren't bothered by the direction they turn. I am.  :Cool: 

As to why they would do that? It's a cheaper way to offer another product, even if it isn't a great way to do it.

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## MikeEdgerton

I pretty much had to have this concept beat into my head by some Cafe members before I finally got it. Here's a chart to make it easy. Look at the direction the worm gear is cut on worm under vs worm over tuners. These are Waverly tuners.

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## MediumMando5722

> Some people apparently aren't bothered by the direction they turn. I am.


Me too.

The mandolin I started on, in the picture to the left, had reverse tuners. I suppose if it had been the first stringed instrument I'd ever played, and the hundreds of guitars I'd played prior hadn't had normal tuners, I wouldn't have minded them. As-is, using those tuners is like handing me an instrument and saying, "This one goes down in pitch as you go up the neck."

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MikeEdgerton

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## mandroid

Personal experience Shaller's Previous main tuner line * for F multi length shaft tuners is cut in both worm and round gear directions..
essentially right and left hand thread  ,,  (a set of bicycle pedals is 1 right and one left hand thread)

* not the new, deluxe, "Grand Tune" .. never have I seen one in person..

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## MikeEdgerton

I haven't been able to determine if the new Schaller's even come in a worm over configuration. The old ones most certainly did as we both know  :Smile:

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