# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  'Red Snark' Tuners.

## Ivan Kelsall

I've used a Red Snark tuner for around 3 years or so & it's the best tuner i own. I also have 2 Intelli IMT 500 clip ons as well. A couple of weeks ago,one of them got permanently 'stuck' on the G note for some reason. I tried everything i could think of to get it back working to no avail. So - i bought a second Red Snark. The first one i bought,has the 'corrugated' rubber clamp on it,the one which some folks have found to leave a 'footprint' on the finish of their mandolin headstock. This new one has a completely flat,smooth clamp, similar to the Intelli clamp,with nothing to cause damage.
  I only mention this incase anybody's been put off buying a Snark tuner because of any potential damage.
   It seems as though the manufactures have heeded the complaints that folk have had,
                                                                                                          Ivan :Wink:

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Mark Wilson

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## mandotim1955

Good info, Ivan. I have lots of Snarks, and I've never had a problem with marking. However, I now don't use any of them. The TC Electronics Polytune clip-on is simply the best tuner I've ever seen or used. The search is over for me!

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Bigtuna, 

Gary Alter, 

gtani7, 

Jess L.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Hi Tim - I just checked out the Polytune clip-on & over here,it's more than twice the cost of a Red Snark ($49.0 US) The info. doesn't give any size dimensions. My Snarks are slim enough to go inside the compartments of any of my mando.cases with no problems,although i get the impression that the Polytune isn't exactly 'large'. I'll buy a 3rd clip-on tuner & sideline my other Intelli,so i might just go for a Polytune as a change,
                                                       Ivan

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## AlanN

+1 for Polytune. Easier all around. I was a Snark guy, have a few around here, compared to this one, they seem clunky and oversized.

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## Astro

I have a new black Snark and an old red one. I like the black one better.

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## Ron McMillan

More than one problem with my red Snark, so it's a goner and there are no more Snarks in this buyer's future

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## fatt-dad

Ivan gets an amen from me!  I love my red Snark!

f-d

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## pops1

I like the planet waves, about the same size as the polytune, very compact.

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## CelticDude

I'm also a fan of the Snarks, although they do eat batteries pretty quickly.  I've been trying to talk myself into the Petersen strobe clip-on.  Anyone know how that compares to the TC Electronics?  

One can usually find the Snarks very cheap, so it's hard to not just get another of those if it dies (I have 2 that no longer work).  For the price of the the TC I can get 3 Snarks, and have.

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## Zach Wilson

I love my red and black Snark tuners. Both work great! However, the red can switch between a mic and vibration which is very helpful in loud circle jams. I've never seen any 'footprint' residue from it. I don't leave it clipped on all the time either though. 

Eventually they will get lost or break and I might try something else. But for now I'm satisfied with the Snark.

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## renoyd

The Polytune is far more accurate than the Snarks, with more resolution. When you use both at the same time, the Snark will give that OK center indication while the Polytune goes in much farther so notes can be nailed on the head, and it is an audible difference. NFI, just personal comparing.

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Jess L.

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## Mandobart

I still have some old battered red Snarks - most of them the socket part of the joint at the tuner end has broken and I've used a variety of repairs, mostly a rebuild with two part plumbing epoxy putty that maintains joint functionality.  I've also lost the rubber foot on the clip end on more than one of these. Just superglue cork gasket material in place.  Its easier on the finish than the rubber anyway.  I like the black "super tight" Snarks the best.  The black cheap Snarks aren't as good as the red.  By "good" I mean they don't always work in a noisy environment.

The great thing about Snark is they work equally well on fiddle, mando, OM, guitar, 'cello and bass.  Many tuners can't pick up the lower register.  Also the snark clip fits a fiddle scroll.  My old intellitune is great for mando but won't fit where I want it on my fiddles and won't hear my guitars or mandocellos.

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gtani7

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## allenhopkins

Second the red Snark's microphone feature as a selling point.  Tuning Autoharps when there's no decent place to attach a clip-on, I'm really thankful for the ability to switch to "mic."

Snarks aren't ideal, but I've gotten lotsa mileage out of mine.  Some of the extended discussions of this tuner _vs._ that tuner, seem to be expositions of personal preference, or of extending an individual good or bad experience, into a general evaluation.

Of course, _Consumer Reports_ does the same thing, in aggregate, so shouldn't quibble.  I'm content to say I like red Snarks, will continue to use 'em, but respect others' differing opinions.  I just think back to my first electronic chromatic tuner, which cost $79 or so, was half the size of a brick, and was state of the art back then.  Lotsa progress since then, right?

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jasona

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## Ron McMillan

Allen is of course correct that everyone is perfectly entitled to decide upon their own favourites. I liked the easy-to-read display of my Red Snark, but nothing else about it. It always struck me as oversized and pot-ugly. 

I now have Planet Waves NS Micros on three mandolins, and wouldn't swap them for any other model. Small, so unobtrusive that they can stay on the mandolin at all times, and plenty accurate enough for my needs. I know, I know - some people cringe at the idea of a tuner staying in place, but I figure it does less damage than hundreds of clamp-on-unclamp manoeuvres otherwise required; the Micro is also affixed just above the nut, meaning zero damage to headstock logo areas.

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allenhopkins

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## almeriastrings

The TC Polytune is the nicest, most accurate, clip-on tuner I have ever used. I have also owned the Petersen clip (and also the Strobo HD 'bench' tuner).  The TC is deadly accurate, very easy to read even in bad/bright light, and is smaller and lighter than the Snarks.... would not want to go back to anything else. Worth every penny, and cheap at the price.

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Flame Maple, 

gtani7, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Jess L., 

Spencer

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Celticdude - _"...they do eat batteries pretty quickly"_. I suppose that's down to how much you use them. The last time i replaced the battery in my first Snark,was 3 years ago. I print the replacement date on a piece of paper which i keep in my 'bits & pieces' compartment.I also do that after re-stringing ie. ''when & what brand''.
    Re. ''accuracy'' - just how more accurate do you need to be except ''in tune'' ?. I have a 'G' tuning fork (Guitar 3rd string), & both my Intelli & Snark register a perfect G note if tested with the tuning fork. The big benefit of the Snark is that after re-stringing,as long as the strings aren't flapping around,the Snark will pick up on any note. The Intelli doesn't register _anything_ until there's a fair bit of string tension,& when tuning the G & D strings,sometimes it gets 'confused'.
    Thanks for the size info. Almeria - I might just go for a Polytune for my Weber case,
                                                                                                                     Ivan :Wink:

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gtani7

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## Jess L.

> ... *Polytune*...   The info. doesn't give any *size dimensions*. My Snarks are slim enough to go inside the compartments of any of my mando.cases with no problems,although i get the impression that the Polytune isn't exactly 'large'.


Quick pics of my Polytune next to a stainless-steel ruler, inches at top: 





(If for some reason the above pics aren't viewable, here are the approximate *dimensions*: The tuner's face is about 2 5/16" (approx 5.9cm) by about almost 1" (approx 2.4cm). The total thickness *including* the clip and extremely-sturdy-looking metal hinge, is about 1" or approx 2.5cm.) 

I used to use a Korg AW-2 which I thought was noticeably better than my previous Snark (can't remember which model of Snark), but the Polytune is even easier to use than the Korg. A few months ago I made a quick video comparison of Polytune to Korg AW-2. I also like the durable hinge/clip on the Polytune, although it doesn't swivel which can be inconvenient, but the Polytune will also work upside-down (on the back of the peg-head)  :Mandosmiley:  and the display rotates automatically  :Cool:  to keep up with how it's positioned, kinda nifty feature. I've had good luck so far with the battery life.

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Ivan Kelsall

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## Bigtuna

> I've used a Red Snark tuner for around 3 years or so & it's the best tuner i own. I also have 2 Intelli IMT 500 clip ons as well. A couple of weeks ago,one of them got permanently 'stuck' on the G note for some reason. I tried everything i could think of to get it back working to no avail. So - i bought a second Red Snark. The first one i bought,has the 'corrugated' rubber clamp on it,the one which some folks have found to leave a 'footprint' on the finish of their mandolin headstock. This new one has a completely flat,smooth clamp, similar to the Intelli clamp,with nothing to cause damage.
>   I only mention this incase anybody's been put off buying a Snark tuner because of any potential damage.
>    It seems as though the manufactures have heeded the complaints that folk have had,
>                                                                                                           Ivan


Do you have a picture of the new clamp on the red snark? I still love mine, but the Polytune did look Pretty cool. I was reading some Amazon reviews of the Polytune and one reviewer had pictures of where it damaged the head stock of his guitar. So far the snark has been pretty good about leaving no marks. 

A question for all the Polytune uses, has it left marks on any of your head stocks? That spring looks pretty strong.

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## almeriastrings

For comparison with picks and 'other stuff' as it lives in my Pegasus case....

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## Barry Wilson

I have both red and black snarks but am getting a tc next time. I find batteries last forever in the snarks and I don't change them every year. my red snark is so beat up, shoe goo'd together and you have to twist and fiddle with it to tune now and then.

I had an apex clip on and it didn't last a year.

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## darylcrisp

the Polytune looks excellent.

i have a couple snarks i dont use much any more due to a couple reasons-i have been using a really small(no mic setting, just on/off, standard 440)tuner a local shop carries($12)-these are easy to use and pick up notes easier than the snarks i own, along with long battery life.

the Polytune looks even better, and more solid-i plan to buy one to try out after reading this thread.
here's a couple video so you can see size, and function





this next video shows the buttons and use a little better

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gtani7, 

Ivan Kelsall

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## WW52

My first black Snark worked fine for a several years until I started constantly having to reset it back to 440A and the readout screen was getting dimmer despite battery changes, but then I lost it after leaving it behind at a session last year. So I bought a new black Snark with supposedly tighter tuning capabilities and it has worked perfectly so far. At a cost of $11 or $12 dollars I don't really have any complaints and it meets all my current tuner needs.

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## Bob Visentin

When I'm at home practicing I tune with my iphone and PanoTuner. A free app.  Very tight and accurate.  Just another option.

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Tim Griffin

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## Ivan Kelsall

Hi Bigtuna - No,i don't have a pic.of the new Red Snark clamp,but the rubber feet on both parts,_are_ soft & 'smooth'. They're a soft spongey rubber,quite different than the ones having a 'tread' on them,& i can't imagine them causing any damage,unless they're left on a mandolin which has a reactive finish on it.
  I have a tuner in each of my mandolin cases as i can't rely on my memory to ensure that a 'single tuner' would be placed in my 'playing out' case,my Travelite, each time i took it out. I've ordered a Polytune tuner which hopefully, should arrive in a day or so. I'll replace my other Intelli tuner with that. It'll be nice to have a bit of 'difference'.
   Here's a link to a website selling the Red Snark. Hover over the pic.& you'll see the 'new,smooth feet' :- 
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SnarkClip2,
                                                                      Ivan

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## fatt-dad

I got a red Snark about 1-1/2 years ago and it has the smooth feet.  So, I gather it's not a new, new feature.

f-d

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Ivan Kelsall

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## chris.burcher

I don't know if anyone has said this, but I don't really like my red snark.  I got it a long time ago so it probably is an older model, but it doesn't work very well on the A and E strings on any mando I have used it on.  My buddy has a black snark and I am amazed at how much better it is.  It gets all the strings and the harmonics.  I have not bought a black one yet as I am frugal as can be, but I do use an iPhone app called 'tuner lite' that is, except for the black snark, the best tuner I have ever used.  And the lite version is free. It just doesn't do well in a jam or gig situation due to background noise.

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## Austin Bob

I'm not a huge fan of the Snarks anymore. I find they are bigger than they need to be, they tend to eat batteries, and the swivel joint is very easy to break.

I've been using the D'Addario micro lately, and they seem to work fine. They are small enough that your audience can't see them, and they take up less space in your case. The tests I've seen show them to be just as accurate as the Snarks. They don't eat batteries, and there's no swivel joint to break. Plus, you can get a two pack for $20, which makes them cheap enough to have one for every case/instrument. They seem to work equally well on my mandolin as they do my electric guitar. I will most likely buy more of them in the future.

I bought a Polytune based on the reviews here, and it was fine. The only real advantage I see to using one is for my acoustic guitar. Liturgical music often calls for a capo, and it's easy to see what string is out of tune (usually the 6th) by strumming all the strings at once. But I didn't see any real advantage to using it for tuning one string at a time. I ended up losing it, and I probably won't replace it due to the expense.

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## Ivan Kelsall

From chris.burcher - _" ..it doesn't work very well on the A and E strings..."_- That's a puzzle Chris !. Both the Red Snarks i have work perfectly on all 3 of my mandolins. Have you tried yours on anybody else's mandolin at all ?. Some strong 'overtones' maybe ?. The reason i bought a Red Snark in the first place was that my Intelli 500 tuners wavered around the centre 'in tune' point too much. The Snarks really seem to 'lock on' when the mandolin's in tune. I hope that this Polytune tuner that  have on order will be as good,especially as it's costing over twice the price of a Snark,
                                                                                                        Ivan

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## Polecat

> ...The Snarks really seem to 'lock on' when the mandolin's in tune. I hope that this Polytune tuner that  have on order will be as good,especially as it's costing over twice the price of a Snark,
>                                                                                                         Ivan


I suspect (though I can't prove it), that the effect you describe as "locking on"  is simply a result of the Snark being programmed with a wider frequency range it hears as  "in tune" than your Intelli tuner. I had a red snark, and after it was stolen out of my case I bought a black one - with both it is possible to "tune" a course so that the snark regards both strings as in tune (with each other) although my ears tell me otherwise. I have not tried the polytune, so am not qualified to talk about it; the tuner I use (when I use one - I'm  a believer in "use it or lose it", so prefer to tune by ear with a tuning fork unless circumstances, such as playing in noisy environments or onstage where it has to go quickly, prescribe otherwise), glories in the name ET-68GB and is a no-name chinese product. It is much preciser than the snark, and as you described, the display often wavers around. I've found that the best approach is to damp all the strings I'm not trying to tune (to stop sympathetic vibrations) and pluck the string in the middle, in order to maximise the fundamental:overtone ratio, which can also confuse digital tuners. It may be that TC electronics, Peterson and the other high-end tuner smiths have come up with a digital doodad which always recognizes the fundamental and makes the device easier to use, but I still regard digital tuners (and satnav devices, spellcheck software and the like) as things to help me, not to become reliant upon, and as far as I can, I do without them.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Re.mandolin tuning in general,i tune _one string only_ to the tuner & tune the second string in unison to the first. It works very well for me that way,so that's the way i do it.
   I've been having an e-mail discussion with a few Cafe colleagues re.what we hear 'directly' from the instrument & what we can / can't hear via.the same instrument having been 'recorded'. It's my opinion,that our ears are so sensitive,that we can maybe pick up on  slight variations in tone that a mic. doesn't pick up on. That's the reason why i'd rather trust my ears in tuning only one string to a tuner & then my ears to tune the second string. I've tuned both strings in a pair to a tuner before now,but they never seem ''quite there'' to me.
   The 'Polytune' arrived this morning & i'm very impressed with it's accuracy,however,i'm less impressed that the tuner head doesn't 'swivel'. I now have to clip it to the top or lower side of my headstock to see if 'full face'. A minor point,but it could have been engineered better IMHO. I tuned my Ellis using it,then clipped my Red Snark on & checked it. The Snark was _spot on_ as well.
   So,i now have a tuner that cost more than twice the price of a Snark,but has _no advantage_ in it's tuning ability,& has a lesser advantage in where i can clip it to the headstock. I did expect this so = no problema senors !!,
                                                                                                                                       Ivan :Wink:

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## Polecat

Just out of interest, try it the other way round: tune with the snark, and check with the polytune. Assuming that the polytune has a tighter window of in-tuneness (which I am), you should find it possible to be in tune a la snark, but out of tune according to the polytune. If this isn't the case, you are right, and the polytune really is just a more expensive tool that does exactly the same job no better than the snark (which I find hard to believe).

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Gary Leonard, 

Jess L.

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## Drew Egerton

> I've been using the D'Addario micro lately, and they seem to work fine. They are small enough that your audience can't see them, and they take up less space in your case. The tests I've seen show them to be just as accurate as the Snarks. They don't eat batteries, and there's no swivel joint to break. Plus, you can get a two pack for $20, which makes them cheap enough to have one for every case/instrument. They seem to work equally well on my mandolin as they do my electric guitar. I will most likely buy more of them in the future.



I've been using a red Snark for a few years now with no issues really other than losing the rubber piece for a while. They sent me a new one for free, then I found the old one. I've only replaced the battery once.

I did just get a set of 4 EJ17 strings for guitar and it came with a micro tuner, which I didn't even realize at first. I gave it a try and it seems to work fine but I haven't done much A/B comparing yet. It does seem like it has a microphone that stays on so I could see it being an issue when playing with others v. the Snark's vibration setting. I like the size though.

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## fatt-dad

> I don't know if anyone has said this, but I don't really like my red snark.  I got it a long time ago so it probably is an older model, but it doesn't work very well on the A and E strings on any mando I have used it on.  My buddy has a black snark and I am amazed at how much better it is.  It gets all the strings and the harmonics.  I have not bought a black one yet as I am frugal as can be, but I do use an iPhone app called 'tuner lite' that is, except for the black snark, the best tuner I have ever used.  And the lite version is free. It just doesn't do well in a jam or gig situation due to background noise.


the one time my Snark acted up, I had inadvertently switched from vib to mic.

f-d

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## almeriastrings

> The Snark was _spot on_ as well.
>    So,i now have a tuner that cost more than twice the price of a Snark,but has _no advantage_ in it's tuning ability


Put the Polytune into 'Strobe' mode..... then compare....

Accurate to +/- 0.02 cents in that mode.

The regular Snark's only indicate 2.5 cents between indicators.

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Jess L.

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## Jill McAuley

I just ordered a Polytune so looking forward to comparing it to my old Red Snark. I have to say, similar to another poster here, I've had issues with it's accuracy on the A & E strings as well on both my mandolin and tenor banjo. The mandolin was recently set up by my luthier as well FYI.

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## colorado_al

+1 for D'Addario micro
I have one on each of my instruments. Just leave them on. Easy, small, accurate.

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## MikeEdgerton

I tuned up last year. I'll see if I need to tune again next year.  :Cool:

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allenhopkins, 

Austin Bob, 

colorado_al, 

Jess L., 

Johnny60

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## gtani7

> I tuned up last year. I'll see if I need to tune again next year.


my now former teacher said when he went to IBMA he was changing strings at least every day.  But he was also playing 10+ hours/day.

And, sort of on-topic: I got the korg contact mike, http://www.korg.com/us/products/tuners/cm_200/, doesn't work that great on headstock.  It might work well if i ran it thru a mixer preamp, but who wants to bother.

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## chris.burcher

I have tried it on several guitars and lots of mandolins - same effect.  Now, I'll admit i'm not that smart but think it has been on vibe and not mic.  I, also dumbly, have never tuned the tuner itself.  Thanks for ideas to try!  It's not horrible but my buddy's black snark is just incredible.  Maybe it's the 'set up'.  Will try tonight as i continue to search for the sweet spot between neck relief, action, and playability on my new yellowstone.

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## Ivan Kelsall

I've tested every tuner i've ever had (2 Intelli 500's & 2 Red Snarks) using my banjo's G tuning fork,& they've all 'locked on' to a correct G note. I did the same thing yesterday with the new Polytune,with the same result. So,if they do the same thing when clamped to an instrument,i can only assume that the strings are_ correctly tuned_ - what more do we need ?. As long as they hit the 'centre spot',for me,it doesn't matter what the % errors on either side are,i'm not interested in them - i want ''in tune''. Tuning forks don't display % 'errors',& in tuning something as elaborate as a grand piano, it's down to the _hearing_ of a piano tuner. That's why i believe that our hearing can do ''something else'' when it comes down to absolute refinement in tuning. As i said in my previous post,if i tune _both_ strings in a pair to the tuner,even if they register the absolute same note,they never sound absolutely 'correct' to my ear when played together ie. they never sound like 'one' string. I used the new Polytune to tune my Ellis yesterday. I tuned one string to the tuner & then the second string to the first & it sounded as perfect as i could ever wish. I do take into consideration the added string tension on the neck when tuning the second string,as it might affect the tension on the already tuned first string as the neck moves under the extra string tension. I always re-check the first string in the pair i'm tuning & then re-check _all_ the strings when up to pitch for the same reason.
  This is all hair splitting IMHO - as long as our instruments are 'in tune',it doesn't matter which tuner you use - does it ?,
                                                                                                                                                                 Ivan :Wink:

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## Beanzy

Yep. I'm another who just wants one good reference note then the rest are all tuned relative to that. 
Maybe it's just because I learnt with a tuning fork so have always tuned that way even when I moved over to using electronic tuners.
A few guidelines that helped me starting out 
For tuning to someone else's reference note or doing the pairs; listen for the beats & tune till they synchronise. 
For your fifths; can you hear the bagpipes yet?
And a wee rule for everyone at a jam or in a group/ orchestra; tune up then shut up & let the others tune up.

Occasionally I'll just use the tuner and hope for the best due to things like retuning in the middle of a piece if it goes out suddenly & I can't tell which string went which way, but that's been very rare. Mostly you can just face a wall and huddle to hear the instrument close up. Remember the tuner will be thrown off in a noisy environment too as your instrument will be vibrating sympathetically with the ambient noise.

The reason I like tuning this way is because it means I'm not delegating my intonation to a machine, which means I'm keeping my ears awake and trained up. As with any other skill you need to keep it trained. It really helps when using narrow fifths tuning as you just know when it's sounding right The big advantage there is that you get quick at catching when a string is shifting out of tune and retuning is really fast because you don't need to reach for the tuner.

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FLATROCK HILL

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Beanzy -_ "...listen for the beats & tune till they synchronise."_. Absolutely !. That's how i tune one string to another - as do most folks. I still use a tuning fork for tuning my banjo. I need binoculars to see a tuner if i clamp it to the headstock. Plus,tuning a banjo's even more frustrating because the neck / pot junction flexes so easily,
                                                                                                           Ivan

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## chris.burcher

So I figured out my dilemma with the red snark.  I had it turned on mic and not vibe BECAUSE the vibe feature hardly works.  When it is on vibe the tuner does not respond unless I 'thunk' it repeatedly.  I remember this happening, turning it on to mic, and then not using it anymore until recently.  I do consider the tuning capacity 'better' using the vibe feature, and pretty good really, but having to thunk it to get it to work is annoying.  I was able to make significant progress on my setup using it last night so that's worth something.

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## Polecat

Given that part of the banjo's tone is created by frequency modulation (flexing of the head-skin), it's a moot point if a banjo can ever be strictly "in tune" (like a violin played with vibrato), however, bands with banjos seem to be able to agree upon an intonation they find satisfactory.
If you're happy with your snark, Ivan, that's all that matters - I wasn't, because it is not "tight" enough to rely on in situations that defeat my ears.
All in all, I do not feel that the technological revolution has been purely a benefit for acoustic music. When I started performing in british folk clubs in the early 1980s, there were "singers nights", not "open mics", and eating a packet of potato crisps was considered rude, because too noisy, and people listened, however lousy you were (and I was). Mind you, the room was often thick with cigarette smoke, and that was considered acceptable. People tuned by ear, to a greater or lesser degree of success, and I think the music was the richer for it (if you listen to old blues records, or Topic Records field recordings, there are some _very_ interesting intonations - would Robert Johnson's singing send shivers up our spines if you stripped him of his "microtonality"? I doubt it).
And Beanzy's point that 


> The reason I like tuning this way is because it means I'm not delegating my intonation to a machine, which means I'm keeping my ears awake and trained up. As with any other skill you need to keep it trained. It really helps when using narrow fifths tuning as you just know when it's sounding right The big advantage there is that you get quick at catching when a string is shifting out of tune and retuning is really fast because you don't need to reach for the tuner.


is very pertinant, I could't have put it better.

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Ivan Kelsall

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## darrylicshon

I liked my red snark but my wife broke her no name tuner so i gave it to her and i had been using my fender FT-1620 California Series for another mandolin so i just went back to it. I like the fender FT-1620 California Series it comes on when you clip it on and tunes good for me. I haven't compared it to the snark i will have to do that

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## Ivan Kelsall

Hi Polecat - It seems that your past playing experiences have been very much like my own. I started playing at my local 'singers club' in Manchester, as soon as i got the courage up around 1965(ish). That's how i met the future members of the  band i got together in late 1965. Back then,folk clubs could be either a pub which had folk music,or,a folk club that 'sold beer'. I found a big difference in that the folk club audiences kept quiet,they were there specifically for the music. Pubs were the exact opposite.
Very early on in my banjo 'career',i went to see ''The Humble Bums'' with Billy Connolly playing banjo,at a pub called The White Swan in Manchester. The audience was typically noisy & BC put them down in no uncertain terms. :Redface: 
   I use i/net radio stations for music to pick along to & if i detect that my mandolin's out of tune, i use a tuner to re-tune. I don't turn the volume on my speakers down,i simply rely on the centre, 'in tune' section of my tuner doing it's bit,
                                                                                                                                                Ivan :Chicken:

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## derbex

> People tuned by ear, to a greater or lesser degree of success


Still seem to round our way  :Frown: 

I use a cheapo tuner http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007WREIQQ seems to work as well as anything else that people use, I use the same method to tune up as Ivan -once in a while I'll check across the strings and they are in tune at 7th fret as well (depending on the mandolin  :Smile:  )

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## Stevo75

When you guys are getting just one reference note and tuning all the strings to that, what are you doing?

I usually tune my guitar with just one reference note. I hit the harmonic at the fifth fret and let that ring out while I tune the string above it. Then I just listen for the beats to go away.  On the mandolin, I'll tune one string in a course to the tuner and then tune the other string by ear. But I do this for all four string courses. I don't have a good way to tune one string course to another.  I know I can hit the note at the seventh fret and tune the string above it, but that doesn't seem to work out as well as the guitar. It's harder to keep that note fretted with one hand while I tune with the other and the notes don't ring out as long on a mandolin as a guitar.

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## pops1

Lower string open, say G, next string, D fret on the 5th fret. I think it's easier to hear tho I do both. You can also use the 12th fret harmonic for the open string. It's a little reverse of what you are hearing so you can use both to check.

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## FLATROCK HILL

> For tuning to someone else's reference note or doing the pairs; listen for the beats & tune till they synchronise.


Exactly!

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## Polecat

> When you guys are getting just one reference note and tuning all the strings to that, what are you doing?
> ...I don't have a good way to tune one string course to another...


I tune to fifths by ear (tune the string down below where it belongs, play it along with the reference string and tune up until it sounds "right"). With an instrument tuned in fifths, the second harmonic on the lower string (above the 7th fret on, say, the G string) is the same note as the first harmonic on the string above (in this case, above the 12th fret on the D string). This method works fine for instruments without frets, such as violins and cellos, however, I've found that with the mandolin, if you tune this way and get the harmonics identical and beat-free, there are intonation issues with the 2nd-4th or 5th frets, especially with the A and D strings (I don't know why this should be, the first fret is always OK), which are hardly noticeable playing melody, but jar when playing chords such a G (0023) or Am (2230). If I tune fifths by ear, the upper note is inevitably minimally flat (by comparison of identical harmonics - the "beat" is there, however slow), but both my cheapo +/- 1cent and tuner programme (from Katsura Shareware) claim that I am in tune. I presume that making allowance for these minimal aberrations is what the progammers for high-end tuners such as Peterson are doing with their "sweetened tunings". So long as my ears do the job, though, I prefer to rely on them.

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gtani7

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## Jill McAuley

Just got the Polytune and I find it to be way more accurate than my old red Snark. The Snark just didn't seem to get the A and E strings accurately in tune, whereas the Polytune nails it. Easy to read display, fits in the neck pocket of my case - I'm a fan!

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## Stevo75

> I tune to fifths by ear (tune the string down below where it belongs, play it along with the reference string and tune up until it sounds "right").


So when you're doing this, you would get the G string in tune (for example) from a tuning fork, and then you would play those open with the open D string and listen for the correct interval of a fifth?

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## darrylicshon

That's the way i learned to tune the violin sometimes i tune my mandolin that way but i use my FT-1620 California Series tuner mostly. By learning to tune that way i can tell when I'm out of tune just by strumming across the strings

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## Polecat

> So when you're doing this, you would get the G string in tune (for example) from a tuning fork, and then you would play those open with the open D string and listen for the correct interval of a fifth?


Exactly - I only ave an A=440Hz tuning fork, so I tune "down" from the A string until D and G sound correct, check the A string again and correct if necessary (only the case if the instrument was badly out of tune), then tune the E string. Usually takes a minute or so unless I'm having a bad day.

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gtani7

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## Stevo75

> Exactly - I only ave an A=440Hz tuning fork, so I tune "down" from the A string until D and G sound correct, check the A string again and correct if necessary (only the case if the instrument was badly out of tune), then tune the E string. Usually takes a minute or so unless I'm having a bad day.


Wow, that's impressive. I've only tried to tune to the exact notes (I never even thought I could do it any other way). I'm going to try this later today and see if I can do it. I bet it's great training for the ear...

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## Drew Egerton

How do you guys that tune by ear do it with a banjo and guitar banging away in the same room?  :Mandosmiley: 
I can't imagine being able to get away with it in a band or jam situation, at least not the ones I play in...

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## Polecat

I for one can't tune by ear with too much background noise, that's where a digital tuner comes in handy. I don't play at jams or sessions (there aren't any here in south Germany near where I live, at least that I know about), because that isn't the kind of music making I enjoy. With the band I play in, we respect each others' need for quiet to tune during rehearsals - live it's different; it isn't polite to expect the audience to shut up and wait till I'm ready to play, so again, I use a tuner. As much as possible, however, I rely upon my ears, so as to retain the ability.

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## Beanzy

> When you guys are getting just one reference note and tuning all the strings to that, what are you doing?


As we lack sustain it does make tuning the fifth more of a race against time than on the longer scale instruments So I tune the a course first then get the fifths initially by listening for the characteristic drone you get from a well tuned fifth. That's what my cello teacher used to mean by "can you hear the bagpipes" once they're in that ballpark, then it's only a quick check against the harmonic to get it locked in to perfect fifths. There's plenty of sustain to give enough time for that tweak.

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gtani7

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## Mandobart

Folks tuning by 5ths intervals is how everyone that's ever played in orchestra learned to tune going back centuries.  This isn't any new kind of rocket surgery.  The concertmaster/mistress tunes his/her A to a 440 Hz tuning fork (maybe it wasn't _always_ 440 Hz - whole new topic).  Plays the A for everyone else to tune to.  OK so the upright bass player is tuned in 4ths, not 5ths.  This is how I tuned for many years while playing in orchestra with other trained musicians.  I can't do it today in a room full of noodlers or drunks, even though my Morris F4 has loads of sustain.  That's why I'll keep my Snarks.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Usually,in an orchestral context,one of the wind musicians (Oboe /flute etc.) will tune their instrument up & then the rest of the orchestra will tune to them.
   I'm still at a loss in understanding how a Red Snark tuner _fails_ to tune to a correct note !. From Jim McCauley - _"The Snark just didn't seem to get the A and E strings accurately in tune, whereas the Polytune nails it."_. I used one of my own 2 RS's yesterday & it tuned my mandolin perfectly. One thing - i make sure that the strings i've already tuned are 'damped' with a finger while i tune the next pair. I've found that the RS's are so sensitive,that they'll pick up on the tiniest vibration that could still be going on in the other strings. That was one of the drawbacks of the Intelli 500 tuners. When tuning the G & D strings it would get confused. One of them got so confused it got stuck in G & nothing i did could shift it,
                                                                                                                        Ivan

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Jim

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## allenhopkins

> Usually,in an orchestral context,one of the wind musicians (Oboe /flute etc.) will tune their instrument up & then the rest of the orchestra will tune to them.


Oboe, generally.  If you've ever tried tuning an oboe, sliding the fussy little double-reed in and out fractions of an inch, you know why it's probably easiest to accept the oboe's "A" or whatever as the standard for the orchestra.

With the flute you've got a longer "slide" to work with.  And also, the piercing nasal tone of the oboe cuts through _everything;_ so if it's not in tune with the other instruments, it's "fingernails on a chalkboard."

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## Beanzy

> , the piercing nasal tone of the oboe cuts through _everything;_ so if it's not in tune with the other instruments, it's "fingernails on a chalkboard."


In our orchestra it's like that even when they are in tune.

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allenhopkins, 

Ivan Kelsall

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## Ivan Kelsall

An ex-girfriend of mine from a loooong time ago,played Oboe in the Manchester UK Youth Orchestra. I remember that it was a pernickety instrument to tune - i could tune my banjo in a fraction of the time. That's an ''as yet undiscovered combo.'' Banjo & Oboe. Not for the faint hearted,
                                            Ivan :Grin:

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## Austin Bob

> An ex-girfriend of mine from a loooong time ago,played Oboe in the Manchester UK Youth Orchestra. I remember that it was a pernickety instrument to tune - i could tune my banjo in a fraction of the time. That's an ''as yet undiscovered combo.'' Banjo & Oboe. Not for the faint hearted,
>                                             Ivan


I think Dante had originally conceived the 10th Circle of Hell (Discordant) to consist of Banjo, Oboe and Bagpipe players, or simply The BOB for short.   :Mandosmiley:

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Ivan Kelsall, 

Mandobart

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## allenhopkins

> ...That's an *''as yet undiscovered combo.''* Banjo & Oboe. Not for the faint hearted...


"Undiscovered?"  Not quite:

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Ivan Kelsall, 

jso, 

Mandobart

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## Rob Ross

For all of you that have had the ball socket on your Snark break, like just about every one of mine has, Snark has a new tuner out called the HZ-1.  It is more compact, with a full wrap around ball socket instead of the 3 piece guaranteed-to-break socket of the original SN-1 (Red, Blue, Black, etc, etc) tuner.  The display is a little different from the older version.  I prefer the older display somewhat, but the new one is just as accurate as the old one. I wrote to Snark about the fact that my Snarks ate batteries and always broke (included pictures of a trio of dead Snarks), so they sent me a SN-1 and two funky little blue cube S-1 Son of Snark Tuners.  Unfortunately, the Son of Snarks are for guitars, and frankly are unreadable on a mandolin.  Luckily, I know lots of guitar players.  Two things to take away: 1) Snark DOES stand by their replacement warranty, and 2) Snark is obviously listening to feedback and fixing the things that don't work right.

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gtani7

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## ollaimh

> The Polytune is far more accurate than the Snarks, with more resolution. When you use both at the same time, the Snark will give that OK center indication while the Polytune goes in much farther so notes can be nailed on the head, and it is an audible difference. NFI, just personal comparing.


i find my korg with a hot dot is also more accurate than a red snark.  the snark is convient.  i bought a peterson for alternte scales, but haven't taken the time to figure out how to use it.  i'll have to look up the polytune

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## ollaimh

> The Polytune is far more accurate than the Snarks, with more resolution. When you use both at the same time, the Snark will give that OK center indication while the Polytune goes in much farther so notes can be nailed on the head, and it is an audible difference. NFI, just personal comparing.


does the polytune have functions for equal tempered tuning, and mean tempered tuning and for modal d for early music--or modal g , that is perfect one key tunings?  and can you program others?  easter? early bagpipes etc?

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## Ivan Kelsall

I bought a Polytune tuner instead of a third Red Snark. With any new tuner,i test it using a G (guitar 3rd string) tuning fork. My 2 Red Snarks made the grade 'spot on',the _'twice the price +'_  Polytune did the same,but nothing more. I tuned my Ellis using the Polytune,that's the mandolin i bought it for,& then put a Red Snark on it - the Red Snark was spot on as well. How accurate above 100% can you be ?. A tuner is either accurate or it's not,there's no middle ground. So how can a Polytune tuner be _more accurate_ ?. If we're talking about the _ease with which it displays the notes_,then i'd still say that a Red Snark shows the note as easily as a Polytune tuner. Having bought a Polytune tuner,_which i do like,_i must say that at over twice the cost of a Red Snark,for me,it wasn't worth the extra cost,& in all honesty,i never thought that it would be, I wanted 'different' & was willing to try one out,
                            Ivan :Wink:

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## almeriastrings

> does the polytune have functions for equal tempered tuning, and mean tempered tuning and for modal d for early music--or modal g , that is perfect one key tunings?  and can you program others?  easter? early bagpipes etc?


No.

Look at the Petersen Stroboplus HD or the Stroboclip.

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## pops1

I have put two tuners on the same instrument, while the better tuner is showing not in tune the lesser one is showing in tune. I have also had the tuner say I lam in tune when my ear says 'NOT' adjust the string and the tuner still says I am in tune. +or- 1 or 2 cents is not that accurate. I do also like Ivan and dampen one string of the pair when tuning.

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## Polecat

> A tuner is either accurate or it's not,there's no middle ground. So how can a Polytune tuner be _more accurate_ ?. If we're talking about the _ease with which it displays the notes_,then i'd still say that a Red Snark shows the note as easily as a Polytune tuner. Having bought a Polytune tuner,_which i do like,_i must say that at over twice the cost of a Red Snark,for me,it wasn't worth the extra cost,& in all honesty,i never thought that it would be, I wanted 'different' & was willing to try one out,
>                             Ivan


If you test a Tuner with a tuning fork, unless it is broken or a piece of junk, of course it will show the correct reading. The issue is one of tolerance - the Snark (and a number of other tuners) has a relatively wider bracket of frequencies that it will regard as being "in tune" in comparison to the more expensive Peterson or T.C. electronics tuners (or my megacheapo chinese tuner). If you're happy with the Snark's wider tolerance bracket, well and good. Did you ever do the "reverse test" I suggested, tune using the Snark and test the tuned instrument with the Polytune?

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almeriastrings

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## pops1

Some tuners are accurate to +or- 1 cent, some 2 cents. A better tuner is accurate to .1cent, a huge difference especially if you can hear it and most can.

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## Ivan Kelsall

If my Red Snark or Polytune respond with 100 % accuracy to a G tuning fork,then i'd expect them to respond accurately to a G string(s) when it's in tune,as they seem to. Any minute difference from 'spot on' is far below my range of hearing. If the centre point reading is showing 'spot on' & there's _no fluctuation to either side of that point,_then i take it to mean that the strings are accurately in tune. Reversing the tuner sequence wouldn't show any differences - they both showed 'spot on' readings. After checking the Red Snark against the Polytune,if i'd put the Polytune back on (reverse sequence), should have i expected a difference ?. I don't think - so unless i'd  changed something myself. Even my pretty inexpensive Intelli 500's got me 'in tune' as accurately as either a Snark or the Polytune. The one thing i really like about the Snarks,is their ability to pick up on a note as soon as there's some reasonable tension on the strings after re-stringing. As long as they're not flapping around,it'll register a note,something i haven't tried with the Polytune yet,
                                                                      Ivan :Wink:

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## David Lewis

> does the polytune have functions for equal tempered tuning, and mean tempered tuning and for modal d for early music--or modal g , that is perfect one key tunings?  and can you program others?  easter? early bagpipes etc?


Clear tune tuner on iPhone does a marvellous job in tuning including mean, equal and Pythagorean and it cost me about 6.49 AUD. Nfi

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## chris storz

I have the new-ish white snark, which has a hertz mode. I am pretty happy with it but wish they had retained the old display mode with the progressing wedges.

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## Rob Roy

*re: TC polytune clip-on tuner*. I have one of their pedal tuners for my JJB equipped stage guitar and it works great. I was hesitant to drop so much money on their clip on tuner, but did in the end for stage or jam session tuning mandolins. The two strengths that make it worth owning, IMHO are accuracy and speed. In tuning pairs on the mandolin, too often the snark says each one of the pair are in tune, but they're not in tune with each other. The polytune get's them right on with no retuning the strings to each other. The other thing is that the polytune settles on the pitch of the string instantly without all the wavering around I get from other tuners. No sitting around waiting for the tuner to decide on the current pitch of the string. Are they too expensive? yes. Overall, a time saver.

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## Ivan Kelsall

A couple of days ago,i re-strung my Ellis.My recently purchased Polytune is in the Ellis case & that's what i used to tune up after re-stringing. One thing that i always liked about the Red Snark is it's ability to pick up the 'note' on very slack (un-tuned) strings,something which my Intelli 500 tuners never did. The Polytune worked just as well as the Red Snark,but when it came down to the wire,the PT just didn't 'lock onto' the fully tuned note as easily as the Snark. It did work ok & tuning wasn't a problem,but the Snark hits the centre spot & stays there. With the PT,there was always the little red bar running up & down below or above the 'in tune' position until _both_ strings were accurately in tune. This is only to be expected as string tension on one string pair, affects the string tension on all the strings.
   As Rob Roy points out - a tuner can show that 'both' strings in a pair are 'in tune',when to our ears,they're not. I found that out shortly after i bought a mandolin & began using a tuner. These days,i tune one string to the tuner & the second string to the first,every time. Both the Snark & PT tuners ( well mine does), show _both_ strings in tune when to _my_ ears they're not.   Having discussed exactly this point with a few e-mail buddies,i know that i'm certainly not alone in this.
    This article on ''Well tempered tuning'' might add a bit of an insight as to what's happening     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_temperament & any article on Piano tuning might add further info. From what i can remember,piano strings are tuned as perfectly as possible to a tuning fork,& then their _individual tension_ is adjusted to make the Piano sound 'in harmony with itself' - or something similar. 100% 'perfect' notes don't cut it !. 
   How to tune a Piano - http://www.piano-tuning.co.uk/tuning-a-piano/ One telling sentence - _"Begin to tune other notes relative to the first note tuned"_,
                                                          Ivan :Wink:

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## Drew Egerton

> I've been using a red Snark for a few years now with no issues really other than losing the rubber piece for a while. They sent me a new one for free, then I found the old one. I've only replaced the battery once.
> 
> I did just get a set of 4 EJ17 strings for guitar and it came with a micro tuner, which I didn't even realize at first. I gave it a try and it seems to work fine but I haven't done much A/B comparing yet. It does seem like it has a microphone that stays on so I could see it being an issue when playing with others v. the Snark's vibration setting. I like the size though.



Saw this thread come back up and thought I would follow up on my previous post.
I had been using the micro D'Addario for a few weeks now. As far as the tuning capabilities, I do like it. I have decided though that it is pretty easy to scuff a headstock with. Also, I have found that I cannot keep it from buzzing if I leave it attached. It may just be what a powerful mandolin my Kelley is, but I hear it buzzing often enough to really be annoying.

For now at least, I'm back to the red Snark.

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## Dagger Gordon

"too often the snark says each one of the pair are in tune, but they're not in tune with each other. "  Rob Roy, May 1st.

At last somebody has said what seems to have been bothering me for ages.  I just don't think my mandolin sounds properly in tune when I use the Snark. 
I had put it down to my ears getting shot, but actually I find I've not been happy for quite a while.

The last straw came when I did a gig with my son Colin (who I don't see that often) a few weeks ago. Neither of us thought the mandolin sounded right, although the tuner said it should be perfectly in tune. We decided to abandon it and instead tune by ear to a piano which was there, and we were much happier.

Then a few nights ago I borrowed a friend's Fender California tuner in a very noisy pub atmosphere, and I was struck by how much happier I was with the actual sound of the instrument once I'd tuned to it. This was not the first time I had borrowed it, and indeed I had noticed the same thing before.
Anyway, I've just bought my own Fender California tuner, and I can confirm that I definitely do think that the sound of my 'Fender tuned' instruments is better.

Am I imagining all this? I honestly don't think I am. Do all tuners give the same readings?

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## Ivan Kelsall

Gordon - *'The'* criteria for any tuner,should be what the piano tuners still use -a tuning fork. However,these days i suspect that they use some type of note 'generator'. My 2 Red Snarks & the Polytune show absolutely pin point accuracy using my G (below middle C ) tuning fork. All 3 tuners 'lock onto' the note in milliseconds. The problem with the Polytune tuner which i used yesterday to re-tune the new strings on my Ellis which had stretched a bit,is that it will tune with total accuracy,but the 'datum line' drifts up & down far more before hitting the notes. The Red Snark locks on almost immediately when i get to the correct note. I've checked the notes the Snarks tune to with the Polytune (& vice versa) & they're always the same = the same degree of accuracy (IMHO). However,in tuning my mandolins,i always tune one string & then tune the other string to that,then i go back & check the first one for accuracy in case it's gone a tad flat.

   Using either my Snarks or Polytune,my mandolins are easy to tune & tune accurately. The Snarks at half the cost are just easier to use - for me,
                     Ivan :Wink:

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## almeriastrings

> Am I imagining all this? I honestly don't think I am. Do all tuners give the same readings?


No. 

That is one reason why there are tuners that cost hundreds and others that cost less than a cup of latte. If they were all the same we would not need to bother with the more expensive ones at all.

They are not the same, however. There are two main areas where they differ. First, the tolerance - or "window of acceptability", in other words, the base accuracy. Cheap tuners (and the red Snark is a cheap tuner) tend to be +/- 2 cents. That is a lot of wriggle room... really top class tuners are far, far more accurate (+/- 0.1 cents).

Second, no matter what the inherent measuring accuracy, the ability to display that accuracy is also a factor. Again, the best tuners have very high resolution displays - cheap tuners use 'coarse' displays. 

Now... simply because of manufacturing variability you just might get lucky with a cheap tuner. Some are, virtually 'by accident', likely to be more accurate than others. As with most things, though, true accuracy, reliability and quality comes with a commensurate price tag.

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Jess L.

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## almeriastrings

> I've checked the notes the Snarks tune to with the Polytune (& vice versa) & they're always the same = the same degree of accuracy (IMHO).


T C Electronic publish the specifications of the Polytune Clip, so we are not really dealing with opinion here - but technical facts. These are plain and simple. In strobe mode the display is accurate to +/- 0.02 cents.

That is very accurate indeed. 

Snark, by contrast, are rather bashful when it comes to providing verifiable technical data... however, it checks out at +/- 2 (whole) cents. They admit that it is not too accurate themselves... hence they introduced the newer 'Super Tight' model (again leaving out any real data), but it must improve on the original. In tests that I did, using a calibrated ultra-precise bench tuner, the (original) Snark would consistently 'lock onto' a frequency that was wrong and display it as perfectly in tune...

The irony is that in many cases, cheap and inaccurate tuners* seem easier to use* because their 'window of acceptability' is so wide. By contrast, a true strobe bench tuner takes some time to get used to - even though it is many, many times more accurate.

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Jess L., 

Spencer

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## Dagger Gordon

Almeirastrings, I take your point, but in fact the Fender California is pretty cheap and to my mind seems to work well. I have tried two of them now, and been  much happier than I was with the Snark.

Re: 'wriggle room' etc. Yeah, I see that. It also takes a moment to 'settle' down. Vibrating strings are exactly that.

I feel I have been having tuning issues for a while. I have good instruments, and am often a bit frustrated when my Snark said they were in tune but my ears told me differently. 
I know it seems strange/ridiculous/my imagination etc but I do think the Fender suits my ears/tuning method or whatever better.

Is it just me or are other people having similar experiences?

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## almeriastrings

You can get lucky, and find a cheap tuner (or certain manufacturing batch) that work better than others. The variability is there... some will be miles out, others not far out, and some very close to 'target'. What you will not get with any cheap tuner, though, is consistency and a high resolution display, because both of these require tight tolerance parts, very high QC in manufacture, and a high quality display (which is still not exactly cheap to make).

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## Ivan Kelsall

I've asked this same question in this thread before - just_ how_ accurate do you need to be ?. If _your_ instrument is in tune with _everybody else's instrument_ having used _your_ tuner,what else is required - nothing !.

  You can quote specifications all day long but they mean nothing in real terms (IMHO). Folk buy cars which, 'on paper', will do 'x' miles per gallon,you just try to emulate that performance on the road & see how far you get (literally !). 'Specifications' can be distorted to mean what you want folk to think they mean - it ain't all true !. What _is_ true,is that a tuner only needs to be able to tune to the ''correct note'', nothing more. All the little fluctuations to one side or the other of a ''correct note'' are useless,unless you want to tune to one of those !.

   The piano tuner who tunes the pianos in one of Manchester's largest music stores,still uses tuning forks = _no leeway_ on either side of the notes,just the 'spot on' notes. That's the way i still tune my banjo after 50 + years.
    My local luthier uses a very pricey 'bench tuner' & even that's no more 'accurate' than my Snarks. The required note is either accurate & in tune or it's not !.

   To re-address Gordon's point - you either trust your tuner or you don't - i do - _but_,i only trust them to tune one string of the pair accurately. The other string,i tune by ear. I do then go back to the first string to ensure that the added force on the neck hasn't made the first string go flat,if it has, i adjust the tunings until both strings are in tune.

  Regarding the ''+/- 2 cent's accuracy of the Snark tuners'' - when the indicator on my Snarks show 'spot on' _100% accuracy_ when using my G tuning fork to test them,what meaning has +/-  'x' cents' got ??? - not much,if any,
                                                                                                                                            Ivan

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## almeriastrings

To set a few facts straight.

1. Tuning forks can be manufactured to high levels of accuracy, however... they are highly sensitive to ambient temperature and drift of by around 1 whole cent for every 5 degrees (Celsius) temperature change... electronic tuners are not so affected.

2. I'd really like to see a Red Snark match even a mid-range strobe bench tuner.... let alone a high end one. It simply does not have that capability. It is a technical impossibility given how it is made and how it displays the results.

3. Yes, the accuracy figures do mean rather a lot. However, if you are totally happy with a Snark tuner and really believe it matches an Autostrobe 490 for accuracy, then by all means carry on with it....

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Jess L.

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## Lord of the Badgers

Hi mate, well, white is the new red ... they make a hertz tuner. I have one. I've no idea how accurate it is yet though!
http://www.snarktuners.com/products/snark-hz-1

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## almeriastrings

Hertz = frequency

Interestingly, they again disclose no specific figures for accuracy.

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## Dagger Gordon

> I've asked this same question in this thread before - just_ how_ accurate do you need to be ?. If _your_ instrument is in tune with _everybody else's instrument_ having used _your_ tuner,what else is required - nothing !.  Ivan


 Hi Ivan,

I don't really mean if it's in tune with everybody else. I am talking about playing on your own in the kitchen, trying to tune it to a Snark tuner which apparently says it's 100% in tune and yet somehow not being happy with how the instrument sounds. Not just the mandolin either. My Lowden guitar was much the same.
However I am finding that somehow the way the Fender tuner 'hears' the note seems to be more 'in tune' with the way my own ears hear it. God knows why. It might all be my imagination, but I'm happier so that's fine.

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## Mandoplumb

Almeriastrong is right that a cheap tuner is not as accurate as a expensive strobe, but is the cheap tuner as accurate as the normal musicians ears. In other words can I tell it's " out of tune". Ivan's argument that each tuner "locks on" to the G tuning fork so they are equal also has a flaw. Sure they will show dead on with the fork, but if you struck a tone 2cents flat would one "lock on" and another not, that would show which is more accurate. The truth of the matter is electronic tuners have made all of us closer to "standard" tuning. I remember tuning to each other in a  jam situation and if you moved on across the parking lot to another jam you could be a fret off. I also remember jams with 6 guitars, no 2 being in tune with each other. So what I'm saying is any of the tuners are an improvement over what has been. Some out there playing today never experienced what I'm saying and those of us old enough to have forgotten.

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Jess L.

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## almeriastrings

> Almeriastrong is right that a cheap tuner is not as accurate as a expensive strobe, but is the cheap tuner as accurate as the normal musicians ears. In other words can I tell it's " out of tune". .


It depends. Some people can hear smaller differences than others.

What might seem fine to one person, can sound significantly "off" to another.

----------

Charlieshafer

----------


## Charlieshafer

+1 on the Cleartune tuner iPhone app. Set it for guitar tuning (frets) violin (no frets) or whatever. Different tuning types also appear, as in just or equal temperament. Pretty accurate, but even after using this, I always touch-up by ear tuning everything to the fifth fret, or fifth position, depending on the instrument. Electronic tuners in general (at least the ones you'll carry around) are close enough to get you in the ballpark, but tuning to each other before playing is still a "must-have" skill.

----------


## Johnny60

Regarding sounding "off", it's interesting that, on most guitars (yeah, I know it's a mandolin forum, but bear with me!), when tuners say the B string is in tune, you still need to drop the tension just a hair on the B string to get it to actually sound right.  I've experienced this on so many guitars, with so many tuners, at so many jams that it's definitely a fact.

It's also interesting, knowing this, to hear some guitarists at jams being slightly out of tune on the B, but they swear they're in tune because their tuner tells them they are!

No idea why, but this phenomenon definitely exists.

----------

Jess L., 

V70416

----------


## Dagger Gordon

> Regarding sounding "off", it's interesting that, on most guitars (yeah, I know it's a mandolin forum, but bear with me!), when tuners say the B string is in tune, you still need to drop the tension just a hair on the B string to get it to actually sound right.  I've experienced this on so many guitars, with so many tuners, at so many jams that it's definitely a fact.
> 
> It's also interesting, knowing this, to hear some guitarists at jams being slightly out of tune on the B, but they swear they're in tune because their tuner tells them they are!
> 
> No idea why, but this phenomenon definitely exists.


I agree with that. I find it helps to tune the B guitar string to the third fret D note. I have also sometimes tried using a slightly heavier B string, and I think that can also make a difference.

----------


## almeriastrings

This is a marketing video (NFI) but it does cover the subject matter:

----------


## Mandoplumb

> Regarding sounding "off", it's interesting that, on most guitars (yeah, I know it's a mandolin forum, but bear with me!), when tuners say the B string is in tune, you still need to drop the tension just a hair on the B string to get it to actually sound right.  I've experienced this on so many guitars, with so many tuners, at so many jams that it's definitely a fact.
> It's also interesting, knowing this, to hear some guitarists at jams being slightly out of tune on the B, but they swear they're in tune because their tuner tells them they are!
> No idea why, but this phenomenon definitely exists.


In my opinion you are getting into sweetened tuning which we had a discussion about some months back.I totally agree although I was told that I was playing out of tune and while it would be alright if I was playing by myself, but others would not like playing with my out of tune guitar.

----------


## Lord of the Badgers

> +1 on the Cleartune tuner iPhone app. Set it for guitar tuning (frets) violin (no frets) or whatever. Different tuning types also appear, as in just or equal temperament. Pretty accurate, but even after using this, I always touch-up by ear tuning everything to the fifth fret, or fifth position, depending on the instrument. Electronic tuners in general (at least the ones you'll carry around) are close enough to get you in the ballpark, but tuning to each other before playing is still a "must-have" skill.


Cleartune is rubbish when setting up for a gig with a bunch of brass players though, i can tell you.
That's when you want a pedal or a snark type thing....

----------

Sheryl McDonald

----------


## Charlieshafer

> Cleartune is rubbish when setting up for a gig with a bunch of brass players though, i can tell you.
> That's when you want a pedal or a snark type thing....


Well, yes, but you tune up before you walk in a room with brass players, then tune to them. Either way, an electronic tuner only gets you close. Better to develop good ears for the fine tuning, that's really my point.

----------


## foldedpath

> Regarding sounding "off", it's interesting that, on most guitars (yeah, I know it's a mandolin forum, but bear with me!), when tuners say the B string is in tune, you still need to drop the tension just a hair on the B string to get it to actually sound right.  I've experienced this on so many guitars, with so many tuners, at so many jams that it's definitely a fact.
> 
> It's also interesting, knowing this, to hear some guitarists at jams being slightly out of tune on the B, but they swear they're in tune because their tuner tells them they are!
> 
> No idea why, but this phenomenon definitely exists.


Here's why guitarists often tune the B string down a hair, as I understand it. It's related to the inherent flaws of the 12TET equal-tempered tuning system, and the location of the third interval for basic guitar chords on the B string. Compared to a theoretical guitar where the fretboard was designed in "Just" intonation (i.e perfect for playing in just one key), the intervals on our 12TET guitars work like this:

The octave interval is a perfect match. The fourth and fifth intervals are pretty darned close -- just 2 cents off -- which is why a "power chord" of root + 5th sounds so good on distorted electric guitars. 

But the third, sixth, and seventh intervals are pretty far off. It's not as noticeable with the sixths and sevenths because they show up in extended chords where some tension is there anyway. But the thirds are a real problem, because they establish the major or minor tonality. And worse, they're off in different directions. An equal-tempered major third is off by about 14 cents sharp, and an equal-tempered minor third is off by about 16 cents flat. 

Here's where it relates to guitar. The B string is where the third interval is fingered in many basic guitar chords. So, some guitarists instinctively lower the pitch just a hair, which "sweetens" any major chord where the third is on the B string. It just sounds better that way. However, note that this makes the minor third interval even worse! 

It may be that our ears are just more sensitive to the degree of perfection in major chords compared to minor ones, and that's why you can get away with this. Some of the basic guitar chords also have the third on a different string, which helps mask the problem. Whatever the reason, it's a compromise that causes problems with any _other_ interval you fret on the B string other than a major third. 

Bottom line: if it sounds good in the context of the music you're playing, then go ahead and flatten the B string on guitar. But be aware of the compromises with other chord shapes and fingerings.

----------

Jess L., 

Johnny60, 

MediumMando5722

----------


## acousticphd

I have two Snarks (red and black) that both have worked pretty well for a year or two.
FYI, the batteries that these use are #2032.  They can purchased online (ebay, eg.) for about $1.50 per dozen.
Paying $5-$6 per battery in a store is a total ripoff - and there's no need to do it.

----------


## Chip Stewart

I've been using the Planet Waves NS micro headstock tuner because I like that the tuner can be mounted behind the headstock out of sight of the audience.  I purchased 3 so far and 2 out of the 3 have failed in less than 1 year.  I'm going to switch to the Korg GripTune headstock tuner and see how that does.  I really like the Planet Waves NS micro tuner, but they have to last more than 9 months.  Hopefully the Korg will have a longer lifespan.

----------


## Bob Visentin

In the late 70's when tuners were rare and expensive I knew and old blues man named Willie Guy Rainey.  One night he was playing at the bar I was working at and some young man took Willie Guy's guitar from him in the middle of the set and tuned it up for him.   Willie Guy did not bat an eye.  He just retuned it back in the sour bluesy tuning he liked and went on.  Check out his tuning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGE49XDT9wQ

----------


## Mandobart

> Regarding sounding "off", it's interesting that, on most guitars (yeah, I know it's a mandolin forum, but bear with me!), when tuners say the B string is in tune, you still need to drop the tension just a hair on the B string to get it to actually sound right.  I've experienced this on so many guitars, with so many tuners, at so many jams that it's definitely a fact.
> 
> It's also interesting, knowing this, to hear some guitarists at jams being slightly out of tune on the B, but they swear they're in tune because their tuner tells them they are!
> 
> No idea why, but this phenomenon definitely exists.


On my guitars I get the best results by making sure the 3rd fret on the B is head-on D and not worrying so much about what it registers open.

----------

Austin Bob, 

Dagger Gordon, 

Jess L., 

John Soper

----------


## pops1

I like the polytone, it's fast and accurate. It also has a two year warranty. When one I had for 6 months died, I contacted them, they gave me a repair address so I sent it in and they sent me a new one free. Rare in the world of replaceable electronics.

----------

almeriastrings

----------


## Chip Stewart

I received my Korg GripTune tuner today from Strings and Beyond.  The GripTune clamp is spring loaded, which makes attaching it to your instrument very easy.  I like this better than the Planet Waves NS rachet clamp arrangement.  The geometry of the GripTune is a little more awkward than the Planet Waves NS, but I was able to find an appropriate place for it on my headstock.  I do think that the Planet Waves NS offers more possibilities as to where to put it though.

I tested the GripTune against my Boss TU-3 tuning pedal.  I tune DGBE, and the GripTune was spot on for D, G, and E.  The GripTune was about 3 cents sharp on the B.  Given that the GripTune costs $12 and the Boss TU-3 costs $99, I'm very happy with the GripTune's performance.

Now I need to see if the GripTune will last more than 1 year before dying on me.  I'll let everyone know when/if the GripTune fails.

----------


## V70416

The TC Poly is a dedicated guitar tuner,right? I would think that the 6-string poly tuning possible on a guitar would not work for mandolin(?)
   For those using the TC Poly on a mandolin;how is that working for you? 

Also how are they holding up? 

Any new info on the TC poly tuners or is everybody just happy with them?

----------


## Jess L.

> The TC Poly is a dedicated guitar tuner,right? I would think that the 6-string poly tuning possible on a guitar would not work for mandolin(?)
>    For those using the TC Poly on a mandolin;how is that working for you? ...


Works good here as far as I can tell, I just *pick one string* and the tuner automatically works like a regular one-string-at-a-time tuner. 

Last year's impromptu comparison, Polytune on *mandolin*, now as an embedded video so people can actually see it, you can see how the Polytune (at lower right side) responds to picking only one string:  



_(or direct link)_

(Hope the Polytune company isn't offended at my using a $50 beater mandolin with bad strings for my quickie video, it's what I play so that's what I made the video with.) 

Anyway, you don't have to push any buttons or anything, to get to single-string tuning mode, the tuner just somehow 'knows' what you're trying to do. 

The lack of multi-string tuning-checking doesn't bother me, I don't need that anyway (seems like kind of a gimmick, frankly, although I respect the technology),  :Smile:  but I like the Polytune anyway because it's *easy to use*.  :Mandosmiley:  




> ... how are they holding up? ...


Good so far (knock on wood), been a year or so now I guess. 

It's been bumped around some, inadvertently dropped a few times onto hardwood floors, I ran over it with a wheel of my desk-chair a couple times  :Disbelief:  while trying to move the chair to see where the tuner had fallen to.  :Laughing:  Note that the tuner has never fallen off of my instruments (it clips on securely), but I have only one Polytune for several instruments so I swap the tuner back and forth depending on which instrument I'm playing that day, and I can be clumsy sometimes. *Nothing has bent or broke on it* yet,  :Mandosmiley:  and it works just as good as when it was new. Seems to be a pretty sturdy little thing. 




> ... Any new info on the TC poly tuners or is everybody just happy with them?


I'm in the "just happy with them" category, really nothing new to report. 

My various oddly-tuned instruments probably aren't a good example of the Polytune's capabilities though, because most of my instruments are *not* in standard tuning (for instance, my guitars are tuned in fifths like a mandolin), and I haven't got around to completely ensuring that their intonation (fretted notes) is as precisely configured as it should be. So any out-of-tune-ness that one might hear in my amateur videos the last year or so, is more than likely *not* the tuner's fault. 

Also I do manually 'sweeten' some of the strings based on what key I'm playing in and also to help compensate for my using the wrong string gauges (I like slack strings) and running out of bridge-saddle adjustment on the guitars (intonation issues)  :Whistling:  etc.

----------


## foldedpath

> The TC Poly is a dedicated guitar tuner,right? I would think that the 6-string poly tuning possible on a guitar would not work for mandolin(?)
>    For those using the TC Poly on a mandolin;how is that working for you? 
> 
> Also how are they holding up? 
> 
> Any new info on the TC poly tuners or is everybody just happy with them?


I've used a TC Polytune off and on since they first came out. Still works fine. It's a chromatic tuner, so it has no problem showing tuning on a mandolin. I've used it on mandolin, octave mandolin, and guitars.

I still prefer my Peterson StroboClip tuner to the TC Polytune though, even though it's a bit clunkier on the headstock. I never leave it clamped on so that doesn't bother me. The StroboClip is easier for me to read and dial in, either due to the display size or just because I've used Peterson digital strobe tuners for years and I'm used to that display. It's also easier for me to get a good angle on the display when tuning. The TC Polytune clamps to a fixed position and doesn't rotate, so it's a bit hard to get a clear view of it sometimes. 

The TC Polytune is still _much_ better and more reliable than cheap tuners like the Snark (IMO). I keep it as a spare and throw it in a bag in case I ever have a problem with the StroboClip at a session or on a gig.

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

From foldedpath -_ "The TC Polytune is still much better and more reliable than cheap tuners like the  Snark "_  Why ?.

I have 2 Red Snarks & a Polytune. If i tune with either & check with the 'other',they both show the same reading. I check _any_ tuner i buy with a tuning fork & both also show the same 'exact' reading. I've used Red Snark tuners for nearly 4 years now & i've had no trouble at all. Quote -_ "It's also easier for me to get a good angle on the display when tuning."_. Exactly the same for me when using a Snark,the PT is a PITA.

  I know all this is a matter of preference,but Snark tuners work perfectly well for a lot of players,& as i say,when checked against a tuning fork,they're 100% spot on the correct note,
                                                                      Ivan :Wink:

----------

jesserules, 

Turlagh

----------


## Caleb

I just read this entire thread and will probably be getting a "red Snark" next time I need a tuner.   I've been using Intellitouch products for almost 15 years and figured a tuner was a tuner.  But a couple years ago at a guitar show, the Reverb folks were giving away tuners and I got one.  It is shaped just like a Snark but I have no idea who made it.  Even though it was a freebee it seems to work better than my Intellitouch PT10C.  So I would now like to try a Snark and see what all the fuss is about.  

Side note: Does anyone else think about the ugliest and most tasteless thing in the world to be these things left on the headstock during a performance?  Bugs me every time I see it.  I was playing at a wedding once, and wouldn't you know that the only time a professional photograph has ever been taken of me playing, I had left the tuner on the headstock!

----------


## Astro

Get the black snark. Less visible and faster tuning.

----------


## Kalasinar

I'd never even heard of the TC Polytune before encountering this thread... looks intriguing but my black Snark works just fine, great in fact. Always has quick response which is important for me. Much better than the costlier D'Addario Micro tuner which is slower and in my opinion, more finicky to use. I think i may get another Snark to replace it :/

I never leave tuners on the headstock when i'm playing... it doesn't look good to me and i'm always concerned it will mar the finish.

----------


## Jess L.

> ... Side note: Does anyone else think about the *ugliest* and most *tasteless* thing in the world to be these things *left on the headstock during a performance*?  Bugs me every time I see it.  I was playing at a wedding once, and wouldn't you know that the only time a professional photograph has ever been taken of me playing, I had left the tuner on the headstock!


Doesn't bother me.  :Smile:  

I'm pleased that they take their music (and their audience) seriously enough to at least make an effort to stay in tune. 

IMO, I don't think it's any worse an affront to the dignity of a musical instrument  :Wink:  than, say, earlier technological inventions such as geared metal tuning pegs or permanently-attached metal frets. Any of these things are just tools to get a more consistently pleasing sound. 

For instruments with pickups of some sort, I guess there are "pedal tuners" that the audience can't really see because the tuners are on the floor amidst cables, instead of stuck to the instrument. I've never used a pedal tuner, but presumably that would be one way to get around having a tuner stuck onto the peghead. 

I *would* be offended if a band shunned tuners for the sake of a tidy appearance but then ended up playing out of tune and sounding all dissonant for an entire set. Environmental variables are not exactly perfectly stable even indoors with central heat/AC: radiant heat from lights warms instruments up, sunlight angles around and comes through windows, etc.

Anyway, the TC Polytune clip-on tuner can be put on backwards so that very little of it is visible from the front, but the person playing the instrument can still see it quite clearly. It has a gravity sensor (or something) that tells it "which way is up" and the display automatically reverses to make the display right-side-up when the tuner is flipped over. But sometimes it might still be kinda sideways though, depending on how it's positioned. Easy enough to read, in any case, even when clipped onto the back of the peghead.

----------

jesserules

----------


## Dave Hanson

The solvents used on headstock tuner pads can damage the mandolin finish if left in place too long.

Dave H

----------


## Stevo75

The D'Addario (Planet Waves) clip on tuner is not at all visible so there's not problem with it looking bad if you leave it on for a performance. No one would even know it's on.  The other nice thing is that you can leave them on in the case.  So mine never leaves the instrument.

Someone did say above they had a couple stop working on them.  I've had mine for a year and no problems yet.  It does seem like they have more difficulty picking up a signal and getting a good reading (compared to a Snark). So I do think they're a little trickier to use.

----------


## Caleb

> Doesn't bother me.  
> 
> I'm pleased that they take their music (and their audience) seriously enough to at least make an effort to stay in tune. 
> 
> IMO, I don't think it's any worse an affront to the dignity of a musical instrument  than, say, earlier technological inventions such as geared metal tuning pegs or permanently-attached metal frets. Any of these things are just tools to get a more consistently pleasing sound. 
> 
> For instruments with pickups of some sort, I guess there are "pedal tuners" that the audience can't really see because the tuners are on the floor amidst cables, instead of stuck to the instrument. I've never used a pedal tuner, but presumably that would be one way to get around having a tuner stuck onto the peghead. 
> 
> I *would* be offended if a band shunned tuners for the sake of a tidy appearance but then ended up playing out of tune and sounding all dissonant for an entire set. Environmental variables are not exactly perfectly stable even indoors with central heat/AC: radiant heat from lights warms instruments up, sunlight angles around and comes through windows, etc.
> ...


I would never advocate playing out of tune. But I take off the clip-on tuner and place it in my pocket when not in use.

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Jeff Mando

> Side note: Does anyone else think about the ugliest and most tasteless thing in the world to be these things left on the headstock during a performance?  Bugs me every time I see it.  I was playing at a wedding once, and wouldn't you know that the only time a professional photograph has ever been taken of me playing, I had left the tuner on the headstock!


I agree 1000 percent and have made similar points before on this forum -- it is dog-ugly and offends me on multiple levels.  First, it adds a "digital" thing (with LED lights, no less!)to an analog instrument.  Second, you are putting an $8 piece of plastic on a nice instrument -- picture one on a $20K handmade mandolin that someone took months to build -- what is wrong with this picture?  Not just tuners, I'm also offended by guitarists who "insist" on using the peghead to store their capo when not in use -- yep, it's handy and it makes you look like a real "professional"........sure, buddy! ......and the early bluetooth headsets make ya look like Garth Brooks...)  Thirdly, it is RED!!!  Mostly it is the mentality that I find objectionable.  Just because a technology exists doesn't mean we have to use it, let alone embrace it.  A lot of great music was created throughout History without such aids.

I'm also in favor of playing in tune.  I just approach it a different way.

----------


## foldedpath

My personal reason for keeping a tuner off the headstock, is that having it there won't help me hear when a string goes sour and needs to be tuned. That's an ear skill that we all learn to develop, with or without tuners. 

When my ears tell me the tuning is starting to go sour, I have to stop playing to tune up. At that point, it takes maybe two or three seconds to whip out a tuner and clip it on, then tune up, and then another few seconds to take it off again. There is no advantage to leaving it clipped on, because the display isn't active when I'm playing. 

And it does kinda ruin the aesthetics, especially with something as large as the Peterson Strobo-Clip. But it's more about not wanting anything on the instrument that isn't actually _doing_ anything to contribute to the music.

----------

Caleb

----------


## Astro

Leaving my black snark on the headstock while playing a gig is no big deal to me. Its probably the least offensive thing about my performance :Redface: . I doubt the audience notices as its black and the lighting is usually dim and the tuner is turned off in between. As for hearing the tuning well I wouldn't tune while the amp is on and I wouldn't be able to hear to tune if the amp was off so for live gigs tuners is about the only way to tune.  

Not that it matters what celebrities do with their 6figure mandos but Ive seen all the greats perform with their tuners(usually snarks) on. It doesnt seem to bother them either and I didnt notice anyone in the audience being offended enough to walk out.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## WW52

My black Snark has worked just fine for me.  Only issue was the rubber clamp pad wouldn't stay on so I glued a piece of soft leather to the inside surface of each clamp foot and that took care of of the problem.  I personally do think the Snarks look unattractive and clunky mounted up on the headstock and it's getting rare to see people playing stringed instruments without them attached.  Sometimes I'll clamp it so it's hanging off the back side of the headstock  On my banjo I've even clamped it on one of the tension hooks and it worked.

Someone mention the B string problem on a guitar. I resolved that problem for myself with the tuner by tuning the D note on the 3rd fret rather than the open B.  It's worked well on the guitars I own.

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

Whilst not liking the appearance of tuners constantly kept onthe instrument headstock,i can see why it's done,especially by guys giving a performance. They need to be in tune,& if they go out of tune,instead of having to fiddle around putting the tuner on the headstock,it's already there = less time messing around,which is_ not_ what an audience paid to see/hear.

    Going back very many years,it was quite common to see bands walk onto the stage & begin to tune up,which to my mind,was the height of ignorance. My own band was always in tune before we went on. Our guitarist borrowed my G tuning fork,tuned up & we all tuned to him. So,these days,seeing a tuner attached to a headstock doesn't bother me too much. At least i know i'm not going to be sitting watching somebody try to tune up for 10 minutes !,
                                                                                               Ivan :Wink: 

PS - From WW52_ "Someone mention the B string problem on a guitar."_. As a banjo player,you'll know that we have the same problem with a banjo,& if you use ''D'' tuners,it's even more of a problem because of the way the neck rotates around the neck/pot joint as the strings tighten / slacken !!!!.

----------


## WW52

Ivan -- Tuning & tunings (clawhammer) were among the the reasons I sold my three 5-string banjos.  Not to worry, though, I still have tenor banjos (but I do occasionally get a craving for a 5th string!).

Regarding the Snarks, they're always attached to whatever I'm playing and necessarily tolerable enough, but sooner or later I'll get around to buying a lower profile tuner.  It's just currently a little further down on my never ending list of accessory priorities.

----------


## JeffD

> Side note: Does anyone else think about the ugliest and most tasteless thing in the world to be these things left on the headstock during a performance?


I tend to agree. I am not sure about ugliest and most tasteless, but ugly yes. I take mine off after tuning. I also see guitar players, in addition to a tuner, keeping their capo on the headstock. Not to my taste, especially some of the new florescent colors, but what ever.

----------


## Caleb

> I tend to agree. I am not sure about ugliest and most tasteless, but ugly yes. I take mine off after tuning. I also see guitar players, in addition to a tuner, keeping their capo on the headstock. Not to my taste, especially some of the new florescent colors, but what ever.


I a bit of exaggeration on my part, which I allow myself a little of from time to time, though never too much.  I should have inserted one of those little smiley guys to top it off.  All that to say, I don't like the look of a tuner left on a headstock.  Oddly enough, capos left on guitar headstocks have never bothered me...

This whole thing reminds me of just how far I've strayed from Ben Franklin's timeless advice: "Let thy discontents be secrets."

----------


## JeffD

> This whole thing reminds me of just how far I've strayed from Ben Franklin's timeless advice: "Let thy discontents be secrets."


Boy if everyone followed that the internet would be an empty shell, like an abandoned library.

I suspect that if I were 30 years younger the tuner left on the headstock would not bother me. Or the capo. Its just what one gets used to in the "formative years" I think. 

These little bits of alien stuff jammed on your instrument for reasons other than aesthetics. 

But they have become so ubiquitous I guess I need to just cowboy up and get used to it.

----------

Caleb, 

Jess L.

----------


## Caleb

> Boy if everyone followed that the internet would be an empty shell, like an abandoned library.
> 
> I suspect that if I were 30 years younger the tuner left on the headstock would not bother me. Or the capo. Its just what one gets used to in the "formative years" I think. 
> 
> These little bits of alien stuff jammed on your instrument for reasons other than aesthetics. 
> 
> But they have become so ubiquitous I guess I need to just cowboy up and get used to it.


The whole formative years thing makes sense.  When I was really learning guitar it was in a church setting where the song leader played a D35 and always had a capo clipped onto the headstock for quick access. I think it became associated with being a great player in my mind, because this guy was truly great. Good times and fond memories...

----------


## JeffD

The really cool guitar players left all the extra length of the strings on, all curled up on the headstock. Now that was a standard I didn't like even then.

 I once saw Frank Zappa take his cigarette out of his mouth and stab it on a string end on the headstock, so he could conveniently pick it up and finish it a little while later. I thought that was THE. COOLEST. MOVE.  I almost started smoking cigarettes just to be able to do that. 

 What I realize is that if they had clip on tuners back then, and if Frank Zappa clipped on one and left it there, after a snarky comment about "we tune because we aren't the Partridge Family"... well I would likely leave the tuner on today. I am such a sycophantic fan boy sometimes.

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

Way back in the Folk Boom days,a good friend of mine & a terrific Contemporary folk singer, used to do the cigarette thing - until the burning end fell off & burned the finish on his almost new Gibson J45 guitar headstock. He'd neatly trimmed the string ends & stuck the cigarette onto the stub of one of the strings sticking out from the string post. Unfortunately the cig.end was over the headstock.

  Quite a lot of the singer / guitarists at that time used to leave long string ends sticking out from the headstock. You were almost guaranteed to loose an eye if you stood next to them. I don't know if they thought that it looked 'cool',but i gave 'em a wide berth,
                                                                                                                                                                     Ivan :Wink:

----------


## Steve L

I don't get this whole "aesthetic of the headstock" thing.  An instrument is a performer's tool.  Tuners and capos are additional tools.  They're not stage props, the performers need and use the stuff and it makes sense they'd want them readily accessible.  The Museum of Fine Arts in Boston has a musical instrument collection.  They're interesting...some are beautiful.  They're all silent, residing in glass coffins.  Whatever a player needs to do to get his music across is fine with me.  The music and the energy of the performer is what interests me.

----------

Jess L., 

Mandoplumb

----------


## foldedpath

> I don't get this whole "aesthetic of the headstock" thing.  An instrument is a performer's tool.  Tuners and capos are additional tools.  They're not stage props, the performers need and use the stuff and it makes sense they'd want them readily accessible.


Well, I don't get the readily accessible thing. The time it takes me to grab a tuner from my pocket or clipped to a mic stand is about 2 seconds. You have to take a second to unfold and turn it on anyway, so the difference in "accessibility" for me is negligible. As I mentioned before, for me it's less aesthetics than philosophy. I don't like having a lump of plastic on my headstock that isn't doing anything useful when I'm actually playing music. 

There are probably some contributing factors in the music genre I play too. When I'm playing in a Scottish/Irish trad session, I'm surrounded by fiddlers, whistle players, and pipers. None of those players have tuners clipped onto their instruments full-time. Some of the fiddlers in these groups also use electronic tuners, and I've never seen a single one of them leave a tuner clipped on when they're playing. It establishes something of a convention: it would feel weird to be the only one in the room with a tuner clipped on while I'm playing. 

I'm stubborn enough to think that if fiddlers aren't going to do it, then I'm not going to do it either. Even if I do have more strings to manage.
 :Smile:

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## Timbofood

I just don't like the additional weight so, I tune and remove.

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## sblock

> Well, I don't get the readily accessible thing. The time it takes me to grab a tuner from my pocket or clipped to a mic stand is about 2 seconds. You have to take a second to unfold and turn it on anyway, so the difference in "accessibility" for me is negligible. As I mentioned before, for me it's less aesthetics than philosophy. I don't like having a lump of plastic on my headstock that isn't doing anything useful when I'm actually playing music. 
> 
> There are probably some contributing factors in the music genre I play too. When I'm playing in a Scottish/Irish trad session, I'm surrounded by fiddlers, whistle players, and pipers. None of those players have tuners clipped onto their instruments full-time. Some of the fiddlers in these groups also use electronic tuners, and I've never seen a single one of them leave a tuner clipped on when they're playing. It establishes something of a convention: it would feel weird to be the only one in the room with a tuner clipped on while I'm playing. 
> 
> I'm stubborn enough to think that if fiddlers aren't going to do it, then I'm not going to do it either. Even if I do have more strings to manage.


So, say it takes you an extra 5 seconds to get a tuner, clip it on, turn it on, and use it.  Actually, I suspect it's just a few seconds longer than that, in practice, say 6-10 sec. Now, in a friendly jam, this is not too terribly long. Especially in ITM, where the interval between tunes can sometimes be quite long, as players in the pub stop to sip their beers!   :Laughing:  But believe me, that same time can seem like an eternity onstage, during a performance!  Especially if you happen to be the spokesperson for the band. Also, having a tuner at the ready on your headstock encourages you to check your tuning more often.  So, the newest generation of players likes the idea of being able to check and correct their tuning quickly.  More power to them, I say!  Although this is not the "way I was brought up," I don't think the aesthetic price for that useful capability, with a fairly ugly appendage sticking off your headstock, is really too high to pay.  We are even beginning to see some headstock tuners pop up in classical music stage performances, too (e.g. classical guitarists). They are a truly functional accessory.  Maybe the next generation of headstock tuners won't be so damned ugly?  Maybe someone will make them with a carved wood shell, or with lovely pearl or abalone inlays?  Or better yet, perhaps they'll become small enough to embed permanently in the headstock itself, and become a part of the instrument, functioning nearly invisibly (to the audience)? _We call this progress!!_

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Jess L.

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## allenhopkins

> ... I once saw Frank Zappa take his cigarette out of his mouth and stab it on a string end on the headstock, so he could conveniently pick it up and finish it a little while later. I thought that was THE. COOLEST. MOVE...


That was a signature gimmick of the African-American folksinger Josh White.

By the way, talking about tuner visibility, I'm now using the D'Addario Planet Waves mini-tuners on most of my performance instruments.  You can see them, but they're less than the size of a quarter, they're black, and they work pretty well.  I keep my red Snarks around because they have the microphone feature, and that's cool for instruments like Autoharp that don't easily host clip-on tuners.  I have one of the D'Addarios on each, guitar, banjo, ukulele and mandolin.

Still a red Snark loyalist, though -- and I'd rather see the clip-on tuner, and have the instrument playing in tune, than have a clean, uncluttered headstock but an out-of-tune instrument.

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## AlanN

Joe Q. Public doesn't care if a thingy is on the headstock, likely doesn't know if/when a string is minimally out of tune; it's we musicians who notice. On stage, it's handy to have clipped on. Some models fold away or are unobtrusive, so can be somewhat hidden. In jams, I use it, then remove it. I just don't like a strong clamp on the h/s. Others don't remove it. So be it. There seem to be fewer and fewer Tony Rices out there.

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Jess L.

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## JeffD

> I'm stubborn enough to think that if fiddlers aren't going to do it, then I'm not going to do it either. Even if I do have more strings to manage.


I know one or two fiddlers who have "installed" a small tuner, like a D'Addario Micro or something, on the top edge of the tail piece. Not my cup of tea. 

I see a lot of fiddlers use a tuning app on their cell phone, placed on their lap as they tune, and then put away.

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## foldedpath

> So, say it takes you an extra 5 seconds to get a tuner, clip it on, turn it on, and use it.  Actually, I suspect it's just a few seconds longer than that, in practice, say 6-10 sec. Now, in a friendly jam, this is not too terribly long. Especially in ITM, where the interval between tunes can sometimes be quite long, as players in the pub stop to sip their beers!   But believe me, that same time can seem like an eternity onstage, during a performance!  Especially if you happen to be the spokesperson for the band.


I agree, and when playing a gig I've used a tuner pedal for that reason. It's a bit tricky to rig when using a clip-on mic or an external mic, but it can be done. That's a seamless way to tune up on a gig, with the added advantage that after hitting the pedal the mandolin is dead quiet while tuning up.




> Also, having a tuner at the ready on your headstock encourages you to check your tuning more often.


Now that part, I'll disagree with. I check my tuning _continuously_ while playing, with my Mark 1 ears. I don't need a tuner to tell me if something is going sour, either between adjacent strings, or in relation to the rest of the instruments being played. If you depend on a tuner to tell you if you're in tune or not, you'll never develop that ear learning skill.

I've seen this over and over again at jams where clipped-on tuners are common, like "mixed acoustic jams" or OldTime jams dominated by guitar players. People will be obviously out of tune with a flashy tuner clipped to their headstock. Drives me nuts.

Maybe the next generation of tuners will be continuously active, and flash a big red strobe light when the tuning passes a certain threshold. I know a few people who could use that...
 :Smile:

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Jess L., 

Tobin

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## foldedpath

> Still a red Snark loyalist, though -- and I'd rather see the clip-on tuner, and have the instrument playing in tune, than have a clean, uncluttered headstock but an out-of-tune instrument.


I would too, but that's a false dichotomy based on a worst-case scenario. You can be in tune without a tuner clipped on.

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allenhopkins

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## JeffD

> Maybe the next generation of tuners will be continuously active, and flash a big red strobe light when the tuning passes a certain threshold. I know a few people who could use that...


Ain't that the truth.

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## Austin Bob

> Maybe the next generation of tuners will be continuously active, and flash a big red strobe light when the tuning passes a certain threshold. I know a few people who could use that...


Our choir director has a great voice, and can sing spot on in any key. But he seems to have no idea when his guitar is woefully out of tune.

I on the other hand can instantly hear when any instrument or singer is out of tune, except of course my own voice when I am singing. Go figure.

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Jess L.

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## Tobin

foldedpath, I absolutely agree!  Those clip-on tuners not only look terrible, but they apparently don't help people stay in tune.  They are no replacement for the original organic tuner (aka one's ears).  If I had a nickel for every time I've seen two instruments tune up to "green" on their Snarks, only to have them woefully out of tune with each other, I'd have enough to buy a steak dinner.  

And let's be honest: despite the marketing, these Snarks (or any clip-on tuner, for all I know) aren't doing much good when you're in a room full of noise.  I can sit across the room trying to tune my instrument while my wife is tuning hers, and each of our Snarks will pick up the other's tone.  It happens all the time.  I'll be trying to tune my banjo, and my wife will tell me I'm flat because her Snark on her mandola is getting a reading from me (even though my own Snark says I'm dead on).  If this is happening with just the two of us in a quiet room, imagine how accurate your Snark really is when you're in a noisy jam, trying to tune in the middle of a song.  Your Snark is picking up everything around it.  Do you really think it's giving you a true reading on your instrument?  And don't get me started on people who use tuners on their phones sitting in their laps!

Sorry, but you just can't tune an instrument accurately with a tuner in a noisy room.  Your instrument is vibrating from the ambient noise and the people noodling on their own instruments between tunes.  It may tell you that you're in tune, but if your ears tell you otherwise, trust your ears!  Because your Snark is either lying to you or just grossly confused about who it's listening to.

Add to that, the fact that electronic tuners will read differently when their batteries are low.  I've seen it happen.  A guy will tune up and think he's in tune, but will be horribly flat from everybody else.  Then he changes the batteries and discovers that it was leading him astray.

Now I'm not knocking Snarks or any other electronic tuners.  I use 'em myself.  But they have their place.  And that place is in a quiet room before you start playing with others, or if you can catch a fairly quiet moment between tunes.  Beyond that, though, you have to learn to "tune to the room", and take that silly looking contraption off your instrument!

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## CES

> Joe Q. Public doesn't care if a thingy is on the headstock, likely doesn't know if/when a string is minimally out of tune; it's we musicians who notice. On stage, it's handy to have clipped on. Some models fold away or are unobtrusive, so can be somewhat hidden. In jams, I use it, then remove it. I just don't like a strong clamp on the h/s. Others don't remove it. So be it. There seem to be fewer and fewer Tony Rices out there.


Man, as you know probably even much better than myself, there's only one Tony Rice!  :Mandosmiley: 

I tend to remove mine when performing, too, but I don't really care either way. The two times I've been fortunate to see Chris Thile play, I couldn't have cared less about the tuner on his Loar's headstock. To be even more sacrilegious, I typically only play in public in church, and I usually have a music stand around waist height...I rarely use it, but do like having the lead sheet on less familiar songs...also makes a handy storage site for those pesky tuners. I tend to leave the guitar capo on the HS, though.

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Jess L.

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## Jess L.

> Our choir director has a great voice, and can sing spot on in any key. But he seems to have no idea when his guitar is woefully out of tune. ...


Yup. Or when the guitar is in tune to A440 but the piano isn't (oldfashioned mechanical piano, not a digital one), so the resulting sound is clashy/dissonant (bad). 

There's little point in everyone else tuning to a digital tuner when there is *any* fixed-pitch instrument in the room, whether it's a piano or concertina or accordian or whatever. 

The other instruments need to *tune to the fixed-pitch instrument* and then try to *stay* in tune to that instrument *by ear*. 

(Ironically, seems like the fixed-pitch instruments are often the *loudest* ones too,  :Whistling:  so they don't blend into the background very well.) 

Compounding the problem for churches especially, is that sometimes they only turn on the building's heat for a short time a couple days per week. The resulting wide temperature variations are not the best environment for holding tuning in mechanical/acoustic instruments that reside there permanently. 




> ... Its just what one gets used to in the "formative years" ...


Agree. 

I used to be *offended by geared tuning-pegs*,  :Whistling:   :Laughing:  because, the first few years I was playing music, our instruments did not have geared pegs (fiddles and old homemade banjos etc), and I had some misguided belief that 'real' musicians didn't need such fancy accoutrements. At that time, I thought geared pegs were for pansies that were too lazy and/or not bright enough to use a 'standard' peg.  :Whistling:   :Redface:   :Chicken:  Lol. Clearly I had some incorrect ideas back then.  :Laughing: 

Here's how ridiculous some people can get with their extremes, *I will use *me* as an example*, this was something I used to be offended by even though now I realize it doesn't even matter in the long run:  

Another of my woefully-misguided beliefs, I thought that *"hand made"* was *always* *better* than *machine-made*, to the point where I refused to use *any* power tools whatsoever when dinking around with making instrument-related items.  :Whistling:  Dumb. 

(Part of my temporary cluelessness there was leftover 1930's thinking where many people believed that "machines put people out of work" and thus machines or mechanization of any sort was a bad thing.)

But I finally got over *that* absurd idea, and now I'm 100-percent in favor of streamlining the workflow, mechanizing anything that can be mechanized (for instance, using a Dremel  :Mandosmiley:   :Grin:  instead of tediously hand-carving small items), and doing whatever it takes to reduce the physical wear-and-tear on the person who's actually doing the work. 

So to bring it full circle, how all that *relates to the topic* here, is that I see this modern digital-tuner controversy in kind of the same light. Yeah it makes things easier in some regards, yeah it's a new technology and something that us older folk didn't grow up with, but no it's not necessarily bad in and of itself, it's just a tool that helps the musician to do their job more efficiently. At first I was suspicious of digital tuners too, one of my oldest friends was an extremely-early-adopter of some fancy (and rather large) strobe tuner thingie, I thought he was nuts, I was like "Why don't you just use a tuning fork, that works fine." Lol.  :Laughing:  

I've finally come around to accepting digital tuners as being "ok" so I don't care if someone has 10 of them clamped onto their instrument's peghead, whatever, I go to shows to *hear* stuff, not to get caught up in *visual* technicalities.  :Smile: 




> ... *music stand* ...


*Music stands* eh,  :Popcorn:   :Popcorn:   :Popcorn:   :Smile:  now *there's* a Pandora's box as to visuals and audience acceptance... depending on genre of course...   :Smile:

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Mandoplumb

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## Jess L.

> ... Maybe someone will make them with a carved wood shell, or with lovely pearl or abalone inlays? ...


 :Mandosmiley:   :Smile:  I wonder if anyone's ever dressed up their digital tuner with sequins or acrylic 'jewels' or other such things, like how some people decorate their cellphones...  :Laughing:  not that it would necessarily help the visual appeal that much, depending on the type of audience I guess... I wouldn't do that myself, but on the other hand I wouldn't object to seeing such a thing at a performance, I guess it'd be just another aspect of the 'entertainment' angle of things...  :Smile:

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## allenhopkins

> I would too, but that's a false dichotomy based on a worst-case scenario. You can be in tune without a tuner clipped on.


If so, it's an unfortunately _frequent_ "worst case."  I'm not referring necessarily to professional performances, but to jams, sing-arounds, other less formal musical events where there's a wide range of instruments -- and of musicianship.

And, of course, you can be out of tune _with_ a tuner clipped on -- if you don't use it...

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Tobin - _".....but you just can't tune an instrument accurately with a tuner in a noisy room."_. I agree !. I use my PC as a source of ''pick along'' music when i'm practicing. I can easily tell when i'm out of tune & whip out my trusty tuner (whichever one in whichever mandolin case) to tune up. If i don't pause the music,it's too distracting. Even if i'm tuning by watching the strobe on the tuner my ears are _still part of the circuit_ & i simply can't tune up easily. I always tune one string of a pair & then tune the other to the first string so that they 'sound' together,so _noise_ doesn't work for me at all.

   As for leaving the tuner on the headstock,personally i don't do it. It only takes a couple of seconds to take it from my pocket & clip it to the headstock,so that's what i do - other folk can do it _in their own way_,just as it should be,
                                                                                                                                                Ivan :Wink:

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