# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  I think i've been scammed-craigslist mandolin

## Vernon Hughes

Contacted this seller through craigslist and made an attractive offer on this mandolin,which was accepted-I'm in Va,seller is in CT...Emailed back and forth about secure packing,shipping rates,etc. and overnighted a USPS money order to him..All seemed up and up-emails answered promptly..Promised to ship same day as funds were received..2nd day after payment,got email stating he never got MO..I went to the PO and got a photocopy of the acceptance signature and confronted him with this..Story changed,he got it and all is well,shipping that day..Inquired on 3rd day email I hadn't received tracking info and answer back was car accident,sob story,bad day/week, etc, promised to ship next day...Now no response at all..Been through the proper postal channels,money order inquiry and so forth and have been to see local law enforcement to see what if anything can be done as well as filed a complaint with the US postal inspectors office..Anyone else had this problem and if so was there any resolution? I'm sick to think I flushed nearly 6 bills down the drain and have no recourse..I'm about mad enough to ride to CT and do a face to face..Here is the listing so no one else gets duped..
http://newhaven.craigslist.org/msg/2717688441.html

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## Tom C

Anything over craigslist, or ebay I would get the sellers phone number as reference. Call them, make sure it's legit.
This kind of scam would be a federal offense, using the post office to commit this crime.
on the otherhand, the seller just may be slow and see no urgency. thinking...So they ship it in 2 days rather same day what's the big deal.

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## Vernon Hughes

I gave my full address and 2 phone numbers on the 1st email and asked for his a couple times but never got one..Did a 2.00 background/address/phone search today on him and found he's had 11 addresses in CT. this year..

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## P.D. Kirby

Sorry to hear, I will only use CL if it is local and wouldn't trade nickels with anyone on e-pay. When you say 6 bills I sure hope you don't mean 6 Large. If he's had 11 addresses already then he is a Pro. If you used the USPS to overnight the check he committed Mail Fraud which is a biggie, contacting the Postal Inspector is the only recourse you have at this point. One other thing you can do is look at the address on google earth to see if it's a home or a mail box place. There's a special place in hell for people like him...

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## MikeEdgerton

Call the police.

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## Vernon Hughes

Already google earthed..it's a nicer 2 story townhome..and I went to the police early today to file a report..It goes to the commonwealths attorney monday if nothing else is heard from him..Trouble is it's less than 600.00 bucks so he may just laugh it off..to much trouble to warrant and extradite him here to appear in court..So says the police chief..

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## Adam Tracksler

you may want to call a debt collector....it may be worth it to get back most of your money...

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## Jim Garber

I wonder if anyone in the MC community lives nearby. Esp one with big muscles.

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## Charlieshafer

I'm not far, and know a bunch of "trash haulers".

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## Vernon Hughes

Any of you near by have my blessings..I have the address..

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## MikeEdgerton

Contact the post office. If the transaction was via US Mail they have to get involved. Also go *here* and file a complaint.

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## Barry Wilson

IC3 looks at so many cases that unless it's for $10,000 it might not get much. That was my experience with them (and told by the person that responded to my $1000 claim).

hey even a person just stopping by to knock on the door and politely ask for tracking info might be the push he needs

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## Charlieshafer

Just tried emailing the Craig's list address... Let's see what happens.

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## billkilpatrick

bummer - very sorry to hear it.

i wouldn't ask anyone to go around to this guy's house, if i were you - even as a joke. unless they're licenced to do so - debt collector, etc. - things could get out of hand and he'd be the one calling the cops.

if you do have his address and notify him by e-mail, you might contact ups or some other courier service and request a pick-up - just might coax him into doing the right thing.

hope this ends well.

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## Eddie Sheehy

> Any of you near by have my blessings..I have the address..


You might have his blessings.... but you don't have his name - unless VHUGHES2000 is on his Birth Cert.

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## mrmando

Well Eddie, I've corresponded with VHUGHES2000 before, so I know who he is ... and if anyone sincerely wants to know I bet he'll tell them. 

Seller not giving his phone number was a red flag. I hope those of us who go for these admittedly risky CL deals can keep that in mind. It pays to do research on the address, phone number, etc., before sending the money. I bought from a guy who listed an Oregon address ... I checked on the house and found out it was listed for sale; the guy had an Arizona phone number and another address in Chicago. But it turns out he's a house-flipper: buy it, fix it up, sell it. Still a few of those out there, although that profession is best left to the pros these days, instead of everybody and their cousin like it was back in 2005. Anyhow. That transaction turned out OK, but somebody with 11 addresses who makes a lot of lame excuses and won't give you his phone number ... sounds like trouble.

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## Eddie Sheehy

The point I was making was:  Don't be in a rush to go and confront the guy.  You don't know what you could be getting yourself into...

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## brunello97

What can I add? I hope something works out. It looks like a pretty nice mando for 6 c-notes. 

Some folks here have spoken of an informal intra-MC Craig's List bag-man service.  These kind of stories make me want to participate in something like that.

Mick

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## Vernon Hughes

I do have his name,address,etc...I'm going to handle this in the proper lawful fashion,though I guess the outcome won't be in my favor..Just wondering on the ride home a little while ago if someone else was to respond to the ad with a an offer what kind of response would be given..I'm trying not to let this get under my skin,it's not that much money,just the principle of the thing..I'd have given a stranger money to help out if they would have asked..But stealing it from me is a different story..

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

> ..Just wondering on the ride home a little while ago if someone else was to respond to the ad with a an offer what kind of response would be given.


This is what I was thinking as well.  Someone in the local area may inquire about the mandolin, and may even meet up to check it out, just to see if the seller is still actively paddling the instrument in question.  This may be further proof of the seller's intent to deceive, and the information can be communicated to the local authorities via the OP, and it may be helpful in bringing the seller to justice and prosecuted.  

Vernon I am really sorry for what happened here, and esp. knowing how well you have treated others here and elsewhere as a seller, I just feel rotten about the whole thing. I think you're doing the right thing by pursuing this through the proper channels. Even though you may not think it would work out in your favor, I don't think you'd get much better results by going through other, less proper, channels, unless you know the right people, so to speak.  I really hope this works out in your favor.

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## mrmando

> Some folks here have spoken of an informal intra-MC Craig's List bag-man service.  These kind of stories make me want to participate in something like that.


Well, I have gotten help with local transactions once or twice from friends and/or Cafe members. 

Once in Philadelphia, the seller turned out to be a total flake, and my friend whom I sent to make the deal got rather upset. He took time out of his busy routine, and traveled some distance out of his way to help me, and his effort was wasted. That made me rethink the idea. Doing business with friends is tricky, and I'd rather not inconvenience them unnecessarily. 

If anyone wants something that's being sold in the Seattle area, I would pick it up and ship it for you, but I'd either ask for a modest fee ($25-50) or expect that you'd provide a similar service for me in the future, if needed.

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## JeffD

> if you do have his address and notify him by e-mail, you might contact ups or some other courier service and request a pick-up - just might coax him into doing the right thing..


I am skeptical he even had a mandolin to sell.

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## JeffD

> I'm trying not to let this get under my skin,it's not that much money,just the principle of the thing..I'd have given a stranger money to help out if they would have asked..But stealing it from me is a different story..


This is how he makes money, it would seem. I hate it when someone takes advantage of what is best in us.

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## Vernon Hughes

Many thanks to the respected members here for thier advice..I wouldn't want anyone else involved in my misfortune,just trying to prevent someone else from being taken..But if anyone makes him an offer and hears back,i'd like to know about it to channel that info to the proper authorities.Feel free to post here or PM..I have nothing to hide.

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## brunello97

> Well, I have gotten help with local transactions once or twice from friends and/or Cafe members….Doing business with friends is tricky, and I'd rather not inconvenience them unnecessarily. 
> 
> If anyone wants something that's being sold in the Seattle area, I would pick it up and ship it for you, but I'd either ask for a modest fee ($25-50) or expect that you'd provide a similar service for me in the future, if needed.


That sounds fair enough, Martin, and what I was hinting at. I may not drive across the county to play some plywood slab, but could imagine it being a pleasure to go check something special out. 

Mick

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## P.D. Kirby

Sad part or rather the saddest part of these kind of scams are the Mandolin, Banjo or whatever product never existed. Could be pictures of a friends Mandolin or just Pictures he downloaded from somewhere on the Internet. This happens on e-bay more than the e-bay folks will admit and when the sum is under $1000.00 the authorities just don't seem to care. If it were me and I was within a few hours drive this low life would be getting a visit from me and 4 or 5 of my biggest, hairiest Harley riding buddies. I don't condone violence but since the LEOs never do anything about this level of fraud it may well be time for the good citizens of the country to assist the authorities in enforcing the Law. A TASER would be a nice touch!  (eg. Don't TASE me Bro)  :Laughing:

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## Vernon Hughes

Yea, all the pre-advice i've gotten from talking to people in the know about these things seem to think the amount isn't worth any recovery effort..I just have to think what's the difference in stealing my money through the mail as opposed to walking up behind me on the street and telling me to give them my wallet? You hear about police trying to find these type street criminals on TV and radio daily,esp. in the bigger cities..Stealing is stealing,I don't care if it's five dollars or five thousand. The dollar amount shouldn't be a factor.

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## Charlieshafer

> Many thanks to the respected members here for thier advice..I wouldn't want anyone else involved in my misfortune,just trying to prevent someone else from being taken..But if anyone makes him an offer and hears back,i'd like to know about it to channel that info to the proper authorities.Feel free to post here or PM..I have nothing to hide.


Well, as I said in an earlier post, I emailed him with exactly that intent and haven't heard back yet.

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## Mandobar

Taking payment through the us mail and not sending the goods is a federal offense.  The postal inspectors who investigate these things carry guns and handcuffs.  How do I know this?  I had an employee back when beanie babies were the rage who took payments for beanie babies through the mail and did not deliver.  Two armed US Postal Inspectors took her out in cuffs one night (we worked nights).  Last time I saw her was on the front page of the local newspaper at her arraignment.  Don't mess with stuff going through the mail.

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## Denny Gies

This story is a real shame.  Didn't the 11 addresses in one year give you some pause?

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## DerTiefster

Denny, it was only after the fraud was completed that vhughes2000 did the search that revealed 11 addresses to him.  I don't even know what a 2.00 search is ($2 search?, version 2.00 search?).  But he didn't learn until after he didn't get his mandolin.

It would appear that making a Federal case out of it is The Right Thing To Do for all of the above reasons.  You don't want others to be defrauded, and bringing the authorities into it is the best deterrent I see among the options.  You would like to have the mandolin for which you paid, if it exists, and that is most likely to happen with law enforcement involvement.  CL provide a set of links to guide you in filing a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission.  They don't mention the post office directly, but that might be another place to start with asking about law enforcement involvement with postal fraud.  I try to remember (don't always) to put the item description in the memo field of the money order.  A CL item number and descriptive word or two ("Mandolin") may help in clinching the purpose of the payment and lack of reasonable response on the part of the purported seller.  If he has the item, he may be able to dodge the legal arrow by sending it to you, even if late. Hopefully it won't be a piece of trash as a diversion, to enable a claim of error in description as an attempt to evade fraud charges without actually delivering.  Best of luck.

I paid a lesser amount for a similarly non-delivered mandolin a couple of years ago through CL, also using a USPS money order so that Federal fraud enforcement would be at least an option.  The circumstances led me to forgive the fraud (which it actually was) and not prosecute through the authorities, but I still felt abused.

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## mandolirius

> Yea, all the pre-advice i've gotten from talking to people in the know about these things seem to think the amount isn't worth any recovery effort..I just have to think what's the difference in stealing my money through the mail as opposed to walking up behind me on the street and telling me to give them my wallet? You hear about police trying to find these type street criminals on TV and radio daily,esp. in the bigger cities..Stealing is stealing,I don't care if it's five dollars or five thousand. The dollar amount shouldn't be a factor.


Not to be unkind but it's a matter of time and resources in law enforcement and has always been so. Policing is more about the pragmatic than pure principle. Sure, stealing is stealing but there's too much crime going on to prosecute all of it, so some things are not followed up on very rigorously. It's unlikely the police would be able to put much effort into a stolen wallet either. I think following up through the postal service is probably your best bet. They may be able to get their teeth into it a bit more than the police would.

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## MikeEdgerton

Here's what I see as the problem here. Everyone assumes that law enforcement won't do anything about this and in some cases that might be right but honestly, it might be wrong. I got the post office to go after someone that scammed me out of $30.00 by mail three years ago. The bigger picture is sometimes worth a look. That person had scammed a hundred people. I became part of the bigger picture and by the way, got my thirty stinking dollars back a few months later when the person involved attempted to buy their way out of jail time. Don't assume this is this guys first rodeo and if they already want him for something else, they'll go after him. Go to the Post Office, go to your local police and by all means call the local police in his area.

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## Vernon Hughes

I went to my local PO first,got the copy of his signature acceptance after he said he hadn't received it (overnight express mail)..Confronted him by email with the signature copy,his tune changed and he went on the next day with the sob story.I went ahead and filed a MO inquiry,which I'm waiting to get back and see when/where it was cashed (maybe I can get the bank involved)..took all my MO and express mail receipts (which have.. for gibson mandolin.. noted on them) printed of all email correspondence, copy of the CL ad,signature acceptance copy,a simple background check showing known addresses and alias' (3 of them),to the police..and filed a complaint w/ the postal inspectors office..Police didn't think there would be much made of it but he'll present it to the commonwealth's attorney monday morning..Thats about all I can do,but it would be nice to know he's done this in the past and can be hung w/ multiple scams ..I even zillowed his house address for a hoot (a 533,000.00 value) so he's obviously not some slumbag though he tends to move around a lot,i'm assuming he rents for ease of moving when need be.I'm going back to the PO monday morning and crawl on somebody to get some action..I also have a very good friend giving me some guidance who is the 20 year head of criminal investigations for the DMV and he's familiar with CL scams. He may be able to get me through the system a little faster..Bout all I can do,legally! Short of driving 7 1/2 hours and knockin' on his door.

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## JeffD

Oh for goodness sake don't knock on his door. Thats what we have police for.

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## f5loar

I think I've seen those same photos before, either on CL or Ebay.  My guess is he does not have the mandolin and is a pro at scams.
It does not look good you will get your money back no matter how you pursue it.  If he ain't got it , he ain't got it.  If you send him to jail after they find out he scammed others too you still won't get it back.  I'm like others for CL. If you can't go the item in person you are really gambling.  On ebay you do have some recoarse with CC and PayPal.

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

> Here's what I see as the problem here. Everyone assumes that law enforcement won't do anything about this and in some cases that might be right but honestly, it might be wrong.


I am with Martin on this one.  We don't know what priorities local police departments have, and the best we can do it pursue this matter through the proper channels.  Who knows, perhaps the local PD has their eyes on this guy for a while, and is close to napping him.  Sounds like a long shot, but I still think it's the right and proper thing to do. 

Recently ABC ran a news report on the PD in Portland going after people selling stolen goods through Craigslist.  They have a team of half a dozen people just going through CL all days, making contacts with the crooks and catching them in the act.  One case involves a old, beat up trailer that was more than 30 years old, and I can't imagine that thing worth more than 50 bucks. But the PD treated it like any stolen goods in the community and ended up catching the guy who stole it:
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/por...ry?id=14817160

I really hope this works out in Vernon's favor.  No point in writing it off yet until we know for sure.

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## Vernon Hughes

Just an update..Got a call today from our local police chief,a friend who is as mad about this as I am..He talked to the commonweaths attorney and he directed him to take the matter to the magistrate and swear out a warrant for his arrest, which is being forwarded to the new haven police..Maybe a visit from his local police or the warrant attached to his door will prompt him to take some kind of action..We'll see..

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## Ed Goist

vhughes2000; If you can get the person's social security number be sure to take advantage of all the civil remedies at your disposal. 
* Contact a collections agency to peruse the debt for you. Be sure to instruct them to peruse collection as aggressively as possible, and offer to pay them a fee larger than normal if they successfully collect on the debt. Tell them to be sure to aggressively report this debt to all credit rating agencies.
* File a claim in small claims court in the county where the seller lives.

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## Tom C

I would email him, tell him you know what he's are up to, you know where he lives and you felt forced to get some business associates involved. If he is ever walking down the street and sees a black Lincoln slowly trailing him or a knock on the door in the middle of the night, he better have the mandolin. He'll be looking over his shoulder for a long time.

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## Vernon Hughes

I emailed him days ago with my intentions,no response.I'll let mine and his local LE take care of it first,plus I already notified and registered a complaint w/ the postal inspectors office for mail fraud..Debt collection agency is still on the table if nothing else works.

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## Charlieshafer

I sent several emails, offers to visit him and view the mandolin in person (like he really has one...), and none answered.

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## Bill Snyder

When did he receive the money order?

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## Vernon Hughes

Just another update..The warrant was issued either late yesterday or early today and I got this email today..Keep in mind he had an accident last week as well..
"Hello, my name is Rob. I am a friend of Myke's. Myke was in a car accident and as a result has gone into the hospital for surgery. He asked me to follow up with you regarding a mandolin. I have the package. He had packaged and addressed it before he went to the hospital. I will mail this package to the VA address that is on the package. I am sending this from Mykes account and any correspondence will go to this address. I am using his computer only for now and cannot check future emails. I do not have a computer of my own and do not have email. I hope Myke will be at home soon and will contact you then. I do not know how he was sending this package to you so i hope regular mail will be OK." 
I responded I'll believe it when I see it and send me the tracking number and a contact phone number-so far..nothing

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## 250sc

At least there is a warrent out for him. If he get's pulled over for a traffic violation it should get flagged.

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## Barry Wilson

maybe it was something simple, like he needed time to plan the heist that included your mandolin  :Wink:

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## mrmando

> "Hello, my name is Rob. I am a friend of Myke's. Myke was in a car accident and as a result has gone into the hospital for surgery."


Attention, scammers: If you're going to pretend to be someone else and use a fake name, Rob is probably the last name you should use. What is Rob's surname--Steele? 

See if you can find out what hospital Myke is in so you can send him some ... flowers.

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## Vernon Hughes

Yea,that struck me as funny too..I did think about calling the local hospitals in his area..Must be one close, heck he only lived 1 minute away from the post office according to google maps.

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## mandolirius

> Yea,that struck me as funny too..I did think about calling the local hospitals in his area..Must be one close, heck he only lived 1 minute away from the post office according to google maps.


As a reporter I spent more hours than I care to think about covering the courts. One thing you soon learn is that many criminals seem remarkably dumb. What they really are is extremely short-sighted. They just can't see the consequences because something in their brains prevents that. This seems like one of those cases. 

My advice is to do exactly what you thought of doing - call the local hospitals. Of course he won't be there and you'll get an email saying he was in another town or some such thing when the "accident" happened. But with each lie exposed the light shines a little brighter. Eventually it may dawn on him that he's not getting away with it and will offer restitution, likely a portion of your money since there's probably no instrument.

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## Earl Gamage

Forget it, there is nothing you can do about it.  And ignore anyone that implies it's partially your fault, you were robbed.

Earl

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## Vernon Hughes

Update!
I got the mando today,shipped priority w/ insurance ( I paid for parcel post-no insurance) I literally had just gotten off the phone with our local police chief inquiring as to the warrant status when the mail lady came knocking..The chief said the warrant was served back about the time I got the letter from "rob" on dec 6th - package was mailed on the 12th and was addressed to me and the return address was mine as well..I also got the MO inquiry back today as well from the PO and now have his drivers license # along with his bank acct. # should anyone else get taken..I guess we can send thanks to our local LE here in va. and ct.for wrapping this one up! Maybe he'll think twice before trying to pull this stunt again. Thanks to all the cafe members here for the support and advice! Vernon

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## MikeEdgerton

For all those that said to just let it go this should show that staying on top of it can bring results. I'm happy to hear you got it.

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## Mandolin Mick

Glad to know that the story ended well ... hope that mandolin was worth all that grief ...  :Frown:

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## Bob DeVellis

Wow, what a great (and somewhat surprising) ending.  You deserve a lot of credit for persisting and going the distance.

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## Jim Broyles

Maybe Rob was telling the truth.

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## Ray(T)

Don't keep us in suspense, what's the mandolin like?  I notice that he still has it up for sale!

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## Vernon Hughes

The mando is fine..needs a couple small seam separations on the back attended to,but other than that and lots of honest age and playwear it's in great shape..I'll have it fixed up and singing in no time.

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## Barry Wilson

Good to hear when a story ends right. I admit I am cynical just because I have witnessed so many internet scams. I moderate on a few forums myself and had to get involved... it's possible there was some truth in the story too. some people get flustered when things go wrong

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## Jason Kessler

Wow, so he actually HAD the mandolin.  Didn't see that coming...

Glad to hear it worked out.  If he was indeed a con artist, he'll probably think twice now about how he "earns" his living.

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

Really glad to hear that there is a happy ending to the story. And it is reassuring to know that it pays to pursue these matters through the proper channels no matter how small the matter may seem.

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## JeffD

Valuable lessons and a happy ending. Good going!

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## jschall84

That made my day! It is nice to see the good guys win every once and a while.

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## Rodney Riley

Here's thoughts and prayers for the seller. Hopefully the money for the mando will cover medical expenses. The sun shall shine in your face and the wind will be at your back throughout the coming year. Look at the Christmas story, the one who was born, follow in his footsteps and his example. Then the PoPo will not be knockin'.  :Smile:

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## journeybear

I'm so glad this worked out for you. I hope the mandolin is worth what you had to go through to get it. You definitely have a good story to tell about it, which adds to its provenance. BTW, it's almost too bad you paid by MO; if you had paid by check you would have the seller's signature when the cancelled check was returned to your bank. Just another piece of useful information to add to the file.  :Wink:

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## John McCoy

I'm so very, very glad (literally grinning right now   :Smile:   ) that this worked out the way it did.

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## Eddie Sheehy

I'm with Jim Broyles and Rodney Riley...

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## BradKlein

Funny.  Here's the same mandolin on ebay.

The craigslist photos for comparison.

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## DerTiefster

Well, vhughes2000 claims Timberville as residence, as does mandoman2000.  Guess it's him flip-selling the mandolin, parted from its case.  It's his right, and he shouldn't be thought less of because he doesn't love that mandolin.  Oh, and he's keeping the tailpiece cover, too.  And in spite of the separations that were tended "through the years," this mandolin is now "solid as a rock."    There's no explicit claim about just -when- "through the years" the seam separations were tended.  Seems like half a day after glue-up could be enough to verify rock-ness.  Maybe.  Or not.

The previous owner -apparently- tried a scam, for which conclusion I rely on Vernon's statements about the P.O.'s denials of Money Order receipt after its being cashed, other delaying tactics, etc.  But what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and one might think that a few hours post glue-up is a bit hasty to warrant a "solid as a rock" declaration.  The "through the years" part is phrased carefully to imply that the mandolin's repairs are time-tested and stable, rather than just about dry, day-old joints.

Of course, I might be misinterpreting things here.  (That sound in the distance .. is that a waterbird calling?)

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## Bill Snyder

Well the ebay listing shows the mandolin to be in Timberville, VA and our OP lives in Timberville, VA. I guess he has decided to move it along.

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## Vernon Hughes

Wow,I'm feeling a little bashed..yes,I am selling the mandolin,I've been buying and flipping on ebay for quite a while (11 years) with stellar feedback..In this economy if I can buy cheap and make 100.00 or so it goes a long way towards the house payment..I needed the tp cover and the case for a better mando,so be it..after looking over the mandolin shortly and quickly (and trying to  recover from actually getting it instead of being stiffed out of nearly 600.00) after receiving it I noticed some slight seam separations..I thought they would need tightening but after removing the strings,hardware,etc. and giving it a thorough cleaning and inspection I found they weren't loose,just previously repaired sometime in it's life and not as tight as I would have liked but solid anyway..I didn't have to glue or repair anything so I'll stand by my solid as a rock description..As for the transaction,there were so many things that were wrong about the situation starting from the moment the MO was delivered to the seller..I deal with the public everyday and have become a very good judge of people just by the way things are handled from the git go..That fellow had every intention of keeping the money and not delivering,it was only when the LE got involved that things turned out for the good.

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## brunello97

Hmm.  "Tailpiece cover long gone…"  Muy sketchioso.

Puto te multum reclamante. Caveat emptorus seems to be the overall theme here.


Mick

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## DerTiefster

While it's really immaterial, I don't fault someone for turning a profit here and there.  People have different opinions about what constitutes misleading statements, the threshold of significance, and all that.  The P.O. was, if reports are accurate, doing a deceptive act to try to get by with receiving payment and not delivering what was promised.  That would be a breach in (I think) most folks' way of accounting honor.  If the mandolin is actually "rock steady" and hasn't been recently coming apart/unglued/etc, then the description of the item for auction is not misleading.

But, as I mentioned, different folks have different standards for what constitutes an accountable falsehood.  "There is no case" is subtly different from "No case included."  Other, and more prominent, people have wrestled more publicly than they'd have liked with similar questions about what "is" means.  And "long gone" is another phrase, the reasons for choosing which might be interesting to analyze.  But neither of these clouds the issue of what is being offered for sale.  They cloud how and how recently certain deficiencies came to exist, serving at a minimum to help deflect time-consuming pleas for inclusion of the (prospectively "original") case and tailpiece cover.

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## Jesse Harmon

This seems like a hard way to make a hundred bucks to me.  I usually consider the years of use I have on something and try to pass on a little deal to the buyer when I sell something.  I am a little turned off by the middle man trying to cash in on the deal instead of the a direct transaction, buyer to seller. (ie-buyer, someone who actually wants the instrument.)  It's the way the world works, I know, and one reason I haven't bought off craigs or Ebay on anything of substance.  Different strokes.  This started to look like a happy ending but deflated a little at the end.

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## houseworker

Looking at mandoman2000s recent eBay feedback suggests he prefers to sell old cases ($200) and tailpiece covers ($100) separately, no doubt it all helps "towards the house payment".  Pickguards are worth stripping too.  Aside from the very questionable accuracy of the description of the mandolin under discussion, I despise eBay traders who treat instruments like this.

If this thread had been headed "eBay trader thinks he got scammed on CraigsList" there'd probably have been slightly less sympathy floating about.

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## BradKlein

I don't know if Mr Hughes meant to write 'bashed' or 'abashed' above in post #70, but just for the record, I have no problem with folks buying and reselling musical instruments, and didn't mean any harm toward him.  One of the things that a customer pays a premium for when dealing with an established retailer (like the ones who sponsor this web site, for example), is the 'deals gone wrong', thefts, shipping disasters, etc that the retailer experiences.  A professional can spread those cost over time, and thousands of transactions, and in addition to things like rent and payroll, those explain why prices can seem high in a store compared to an internet yardsale. (i've happily done work for some reputable dealers)

I do think that some folks in this particular thread assumed that Mr. Hughes was making a personal purchase, and that arouses more emotion than a professional dealing with the costs of doing business. And I'll be presumptuous enough to say that accurate descriptions like, 'period correct replacement tailpiece', don't take away value on any but the most pristine collector's pieces, and add a great deal to a dealer's credibility (speaking just for myself).

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## Ed Goist

This thread has sworn me off distance purchases off Craigslist & e-Bay forever.
If it's not being sold on the Cafe Classifieds, or by a builder or dealer discussed favorably here, I am not interested.
The way this forum community scrutinizes and 'qualifies' listings (especially those on the Cafe Classifieds) is remarkable and very valuable.
Thanks to all!

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## journeybear

Yeah, I'm with you there. My already limited trust of these operations has been crushed. From a financial standpoint, sure, he stands to make out pretty darn well - upwards of a hundred bucks, plus tailpiece cover and original hardshell case, which he could sell for - from his previous pricing - another $300. That is, if he can find a buyer willing to shell out $750 for an A Jr. with issues, no tailpiece and no case. From an ethical standpoint, well, he is deep in the hole, as far as I am concerned.

OK, so flipping for fun and profit is all good and well. But don't expect sympathy from me if you engage in shady practices like deceptive descriptions in order to move your item. We who have followed this brief episode in the instrument's history enjoy a privileged position that provides a different insight than an innocent trusting potential customer - we know why it doesn't have a case and that the tailpiece is not "long gone" - unless that means it went "missing" a couple of days ago. That's a lie, plain and simple, and I don't understand the reasoning behind using that phrase. "Easy to find an original tailpiece here on ebay" - yeah, real easy, using your story as an example. I also don't understand why someone who so recently feared being scammed and went to such lengths to ensure this didn't happen would turn around and engage in similar practices. On a lesser scale, to be sure, but still dishonest. And I feel a fool for being sympathetic, and expressing sympathy, and I feel badly for all of us who offered support. 

This has been an instructive episode, and now I understand that things like 100% positive feedback may not mean what I would like them to mean. Maybe $750 is a fair price for an A Jr. with issues, no tailpiece and no case - what do I know? - but things were different for it until you got it, and I can't unknow that. I'm a good bit more cynical today than I was yesterday, thanks to you. I knew how sausage is made, but I didn't care to see the meat being ground. I never thought I would have to put another member on my "Ignore" list, but you've earned it.

I'm steering clear of these sites other than for amusement, curiosity, and occasional education. If I were in the market for one of these I think I would rather go for this one. At least it comes with a case and tailpiece cover.

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## MikeEdgerton

That is a pretty serious infraction. I don't suggest anyone change subject lines, it does not make the management happy.

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## Scott Tichenor

Changed back. Shouldn't happen again.

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## journeybear

OK, I changed it back. Sorry - I'm a little ticked off.

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## Potosimando

This saga is roughly equivalent to our sitting under a tree, comforting Timmy while the firemen rescue the puppies from the old well, only to have Timmy put the rescued puppies in a box and sell them to the research lab.

To explain Mandoman/Vhughes2000:  Around here we celebrate a 90-year-old instrument (Loar-era, no less) that still has its original hardware and case.   And we pride ourselves on honesty in our descriptions as to the condition of instruments, and so forth.  Thats who we are basically.honest folks who respect vintage instruments;  generally we dont spend our time on mandolin-related matters just to turn a quick buck.  So even though you were wronged, as your Mom probably used to tell you, two wrongs dont make a right.

Personally I must have spent a couple of hours following this story.  How many others have done the same?  Altogether there must be, collectively, hundreds, maybe thousands, of our hours spent on Vhughes' tale of woe, and eventual triumph over evil.  And look what we geta guy parting out a vintage, Loar-era instrument, and misleading potential buyers about its overall condition.

Merry Christmas, my man.

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## Ed Goist

> This saga is roughly equivalent to our sitting under a tree, comforting Timmy while the firemen rescue the puppies from the old well, only to have Timmy put the rescued puppies in a box and sell them to the research lab.
> ...snip...


This is my new favorite sentence ever written on the Cafe forums.
Reading this sentence was like listening to one of those short but insanely brilliant Andy Statman mandolin riffs.
Ladies and gentlemen, this one will be hard to top.

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## Tom C

I see no big issues as he stated he had another mando that needed the tailpiece and case. Hopfully another Ajr and in better condition. If just for the money, that's just wrong.

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## sgarrity

It's called capitalism folks.  And it's a beat up paddle head Ajr, not exactly a Loar.  I see nothing wrong with his description if the repairs are indeed stable.  He provided better quality pics than most auctions I see.  As for selling/shipping without a case......that's what I call a leap of faith!  Although I've seen some pretty big name stores do the same.

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## retroman

To someone like me who has not got much eBay savvy, this is pretty revealing. I have no respect for the OP here, not only because of the way he plays the game, but because of how he has whined on this forum about being victimized, garnered genuine sympathy and advice, only to reveal his true colors later.   There's only a slight distinction between being dishonest and disingenuous.

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## MikeEdgerton

OK we need interject some sense in here. People there's nothing wrong with buying and flipping an instrument, nothing at all. If that's awful then George Gruhn, Stan Jay, and all the rest of the dealers that buy and resell instruments would be wrong. There's nothing wrong with stripping an instrument if you need the parts. Honestly if you need Kluson tuners for your Gibson you're probably going to buy an old Kay or Harmony and strip it. Do you not sell the carcass? It's special because it's a Gibson? If you want to have a problem with this have a problem with the verbiage of the auction that you know to be a little flaky. The part about us being caretakers of these instruments would mean that we would never change anything on them no matter what, right? There isn't an original Stradivarius violin on the planet. If you choose to hold your instrument up as some precious item that's not be changed ever as long as you live, then that's fine for you. Everybody doesn't have to play by your rules.

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## houseworker

> OK we need interject some sense in here. People there's nothing wrong with buying and flipping an instrument, nothing at all.


I quite agree.




> There's nothing wrong with stripping an instrument if you need the parts. Honestly if you need Kluson tuners for your Gibson you're probably going to buy an old Kay or Harmony and strip it.


Scrolling through this seller's eBay feedback strongly suggests that he doesn't need the parts "for a better mando", rather that he routinely separates original cases, tailpiece covers,and  pickguards from instruments in order to sell them separately.  If he has replacements to hand, he also likes to remove the tuners and bridge.

He's a regular dealer (in the past three months he has sold just under $5000 worth of mandolin related items), and maybe that should be identified in a signature the way other business traders are expected to here.  eBay could tighten their rules on what constitutes a business seller, but that's probably a lost cause.

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## Annette Siegel

"Scrolling through this seller's eBay feedback strongly suggests that he doesn't need the parts "for a better mando", rather that he routinely separates original cases, tailpiece covers,and  pickguards from instruments in order to sell them separately.  If he has replacements to hand, he also likes to remove the tuners and bridge."

Sounds like Gibson Mandolin cannibalism...I don't have an appetite for it : (

Annette

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## MikeEdgerton

> Sounds like Gibson Mandolin cannibalism...I don't have an appetite for it : (


Would it be OK if he was doing this with some other brand? If one had a Gibson mandolin that was pristine but needed a tailpiece cover are they somehow required to simply live without the cover because it's somehow distasteful to remove it from another mandolin to replace a lost one? 

People who restore mandolins routinely replace labels, pickguards, bridges, tailpiece covers, pickguard clamps, tuners and everything else. Loar cases come up on ebay now and again and sell for pretty steep prices. They most likely end up with a Loar in them. This really is much ado about not very much.

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## MikeEdgerton

> He's a regular dealer (in the past three months he has sold just under $5000 worth of mandolin related items), and maybe that should be identified in a signature the way other business traders are expected to here.  eBay could tighten their rules on what constitutes a business seller, but that's probably a lost cause.


If he made 5 grand in 3 months he ain't setting the world on fire. A lot of people that post here flip instruments.

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## brunello97

Two thoughts seem to be at play here (and because I'm Irish and sometimes I like a good scrap I'll wade further in.)  

1. The man is running a bit of a (legal) mando chop shop. Some folks object to that on principle for vintage instruments.  That is a topic unto itself.

2. He was clearly deceptive in his advertising. (We know that, but bona fide purchasers might not.) But what is the necessity of that, if #1 is an acceptable protocol?

Is that called 'capitalism'?  Maybe number 1 is. But certainly not number 2.  Are ethical behavior and 'the law of the mandolin jungle' incompatible?  This is like a classic Calvin and Hobbes comic strip. 

I remain pretty dubious that 'capitalism' justifies very much prima facie. It isn't gravity or an electromagnetic spectrum.  It is a human construct, most ideally rooted in honesty. I'm a dedicated capitalist myself, but I dig Karl Marx. And Harpo Marx as well.

Mick

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## Schlegel

I understand why many posters here don't quite the ultimate fate of this mandolin saga, but really, I don't think any buyer is being deceived- at worst, the history of things the buyer is not buying is being re-written.  I understand why this may raise someone's hackles, but there is no indication that the prospective buyer is being promised anything he won't receive. You just don't like the way the movie ended.

If you guys were not emotionally invested in the narrative of "almost scammed buyer/player" pretty much nobody would blink at the sale.
It's human nature.  I've bought a couple of instruments thinking I'd probably flip them, and I've done exactly Mike's example of buying an old Harmony just because I needed the tailpiece. I don't think I did anything wrong. I'm selling the Harmony to my step-sister (after I replace the nut and do a set-up).  Am I doing her wrong? She wanted a starter mando, she's getting a starter mando.  She's not complaining.

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## KarlM

> I understand why many posters here don't quite the ultimate fate of this mandolin saga, but really, I don't think any buyer is being deceived- at worst, the history of things the buyer is not buying is being re-written.


Yes, re-written deceptively.  The OP bought a mandolin with a case and tailpiece, and is selling it claiming that they are "long gone", as if he never had them (by implication, that they were broken and discarded at some point in the past).




> I've bought a couple of instruments thinking I'd probably flip them, and I've done exactly Mike's example of buying an old Harmony just because I needed the tailpiece. I don't think I did anything wrong. I'm selling the Harmony to my step-sister (after I replace the nut and do a set-up).  Am I doing her wrong?


Did you tell her that it was missing when you bought it, but that she could buy an original-style replacement from you for only $100?  If so then yes, but I suspect that's not what you're doing.  That is what this seller is doing.

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## brunello97

> at worst, the history of things the buyer is not buying is being re-written.  I understand why this may raise someone's hackles, but there is no indication that the prospective buyer is being promised anything he won't receive. You just don't like the way the movie ended.


Yikes.  Almost <Removed by Moderator> in the parsing of words.  We are in a privileged position to witness and evaluate the relationship between ends and means.

[/QUOTE]If you guys were not emotionally invested in the narrative of "almost scammed buyer/player" pretty much nobody would blink at the sale.[/QUOTE]

Not so for me, not by a long shot. Again, for me, the 'chop shop' mentality is entirely divorced from the 'used car salesman' tone of the ad.

[/QUOTE] It's human nature.  [/QUOTE]

Human nature to want to sell a tailpiece separate from the mandolin to make a few extra bucks? Or to lie about it? I'm not sure how people are coming down or where they are conflating two different ethics (or lack thereof) at play. Again, we can emulate <Removed by Moderator> or just call it what it is.  All three are pretty slimy.  If some folks can get settled with that by saying "That's what capitalism is" then I get the serious creeps.

Mick

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## sgarrity

There's a 1924 A4 that was discussed on this site because it was on Craigslist that was bought for around $5500 and is now for sale for $7500.  I don't hear anybody complaining about that!

The only thing the OP did "wrong" was posting here and then immediately posting on ebay.  I'd give it a few weeks at least.  As far as the ad copy.......the tailpiece and case are gone.  Why they're gone doesn't really matter.  Have you ever read any of the ads at Mandolin Bros.???  If you don't wanna buy it, then don't.  But the OP has every right to sell his personal property that he had to fight to actually get!

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## John Hill

People flip mandolins, cars and houses. In other news the sun is due to rise tomorrow. Why this is a big deal is beyond me.

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## Schlegel

> 


 It's human nature.  [/QUOTE]

Human nature to want to sell a tailpiece separate from the mandolin to make a few extra bucks? Or to lie about it? I'm not sure how people are coming down or where they are conflating two different ethics (or lack thereof) at play. <Removed by Moderator - Don't interject politics into this please> or just call it what it is.  All three are pretty slimy.  If some folks can get settled with that by saying "That's what capitalism is" then I get the serious creeps.

Mick[/QUOTE]

No, no, that's not what I meant at all.  I meant it's human nature that when the "scammed underdog managed to get mandolin" had "and then took it apart and sold the bits" added that you didn't like the change to the expected storyline.  If the guy had kept this mandolin, but parted out another one the outrage would be considerably less.

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## Vernon Hughes

Good Lord,what a firestorm.
I feel the townspeople are chasing me down like frankenstien with pichforks and axes.Let me see if I can quell the masses for what it's worth. My OP about my ordeal was to inform the members of the forum here about my troubles in hopes that no one else might fall victim to the fellow who obviously was running a criminal scam. Luckily and through the use of the proper LE channels the outcome was in my favor,a first in my life,normally i'm the one who gets the short end of the deal but that's another story. I just didn't want to see anyone else fall victim to the same fate. OK, so you don't like the way the movie ended. The mandolin became my property when it did arrive,I'd have been just as happy to get my money back and move on. I've built a dozen or so mandolins and rebuilt so many old A models i've almost lost count. I've been a mando picker for nearly 40 years and 30 of those were spent on the road.I'm not a newbie to the mandolin world.I'm not a dealer though i'm a licensed journeyman cabinetmaker and do run a legit small business restoring antique furniture.I'm not running a chop shop. I buy old gibson A's that 70% of the time are near basket cases and restore them to the best of my abilities for fun and a little (stress little) profit.I wouldn't even consider working on any mandolin that had any historical signifigance,thats not my forte and I leave that to the real pros here who do it for a living.I get the feeling that some of you here, just because it has the gibson name on it, would rather have me display a wall of bulging sided, broken backed, cracked top,side separated gibsons than put them back together and put them in the hands of  a player who otherwise couldn't afford a really nice pristine example,myself included. I'm not selling collector grade instruments and never claim so. I've been thanked so many time from buyers (3 of my close personal friends included) for getting these old girls back into shape and giving them new life,to be played and enjoyed. It's a mandolin for pete's sake,built in a factory setting and cranked out as fast as they could keep them coming. Sorry,i'm not going to throw down a mat and bow towards kalamazoo. Now, some of you don't care for my item description on the mandolin I have on ebay. The potential buyer is getting exactly what I describe and I do offer full disclosure as to what has been done to anything I sell.Yes, sometimes rather than go to the trouble of getting an original set of tuners to work smoothly or put the original one piece bridge (which lots of times are so worn out intonation is out of the question) I'll strip the hardware off and put on new so it can become an instrument that will play and tune correctly. You still get the old gibson sound without the functionality problems. So I say the TP cover is missing and it has no case. I do get some mandos that are more worthy of original hardware than others and it's just easier to say they are missing and put them on a better instrument than to say I robbed the parts to put on a better instrument. What I don't do is strip a mando and list all the parts separately along with a shiny new restored gibson with new hardware,that would seem just plain silly.Through the years i've managed to collect quite a few nice pickguards,bridges,tp covers, cases,etc. and offer them for sale. There are a lot of nice gibsons missing parts that the owners want to have back into 100% original shape and they are happy to purchase those items when I sell them.Some of you who are giving me the dickens for what I do have actually bought from me! You know,if I can buy a busted up mando for 500.00 and sell the parts to someone who needs them for thier nice personal instrument so be it. Sometimes the parts sales alone cover the cost of the mando and I still have it to restore and put into the hands of someone looking for a nicely set up players instrument for a fraction of the cost of a really nice one.When some one is willing to buy a side clamp for 180.00 i'll be glad to sell it.Not too long ago someone here in the classifieds offered a nice mandola guard and clamp for 200.00. I emailed the seller and told them just the clamp itself would sell for 150-180.00.They didn't care,wanted 200.00 for it so I bought it.It sold one day after I got it on ebay for 400.00 and the new owner was tickled to death to get it to complete his mandola. Is that a crime? Look people,I really enjoy this forum and find it very helpful and informative and it provides a great place for all of us to get together and enjoy the world of mandolins and share stories,projects and experiences.Sorry my post is so long but felt the need to respond to some of the negativity.

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## Charlieshafer

Here's my take. I have no problem with flipping, that's just business/hobby fun. The problem is when the OP involved us in his business. As a fellow cafe regular, I was ready to take a drive over to East Haven to see what I could do to get him his mandolin. That would have wasted my time and gas and energy. Was I going to get cut in on his profits? Clearly not. Flipping/parting out, fine. Wasting other's time and energy for one's own profits without disclosing your motives? Really, really weak. I'm pretty sure Stan Jay, George Gruhn, and all the other dealers don't ask for other's help in this sort of a situation.

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## fatt-dad

Just to weigh in. . . 

When I first moved to Richmond, Virginia I learned about Vernon as a local mandolin guy.  That was in the late 80s.  We don't know each other, but way back then I may have had a lesson with him - can't recall.  I know he's built a few and is known about town to some extent.

I'd say his posts on this thread are pretty straightforward and his intent is fine with me.

f-d

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## Jesse Harmon

I would say the posts on this thread have been quite balanced and haven't seen too many pitchforks if any.  I am a little concerned about a moderator taking a position in this difference of value judgement and then deleting posts.

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## Vernon Hughes

I never asked for anyones physical help,just posted as a watch out for the scam. I am gracious and thankful for the insight,advice and offers to help out but that clearly wasn't the proper way to address the problem.If I had accepted anyones offer to actually try a face to face recovery effort I would surely and gladly have offered compensation / reward,wouldn't have it any other way.

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## Scott Tichenor

> I would say the posts on this thread have been quite balanced and haven't seen too many pitchforks if any.  I am a little concerned about a moderator taking a position in this difference of value judgement and then deleting posts.


Mike does not have the ability to remove posts, only edit them when inappropriate content is present, so if you have further comments and concerns about his actions you should contact me privately. To my knowledge, no posts have been removed, only edited. I viewed what was removed from the post in question and agree with his actions because the comments were inappropriate for this forum. I don't ask that moderators exclude themselves from their opinions. If you wish to question the operation of the forum you should do so privately starting with me and I'll expect no further public discussion of this.

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## brunello97

> Mike does not have the ability to remove posts, only edit them when inappropriate content is present, so if you have further comments and concerns about his actions you should contact me privately. To my knowledge, no posts have been removed, only edited. I viewed what was removed from the post in question and agree with his actions because the comments were inappropriate for this forum. I don't ask that moderators exclude themselves from their opinions. If you wish to question the operation of the forum you should do so privately starting with me and I'll expect no further public discussion of this.


Guilty as charged. I don't know Mike personally, but from my experience with him here I trust and respect him completely. I should have dragged in Tolstoy instead, but my brother has my copy of Anna Karenina. I was looking for a reference for the point I was trying to make and was being lazy and went for a cheap shot drawing on the 'political' for reference.  I know that doesn't belong here and I apologize. 

Mike did  the right thing managing the conversations, as he typically does, and editing my post where he thought appropriate.  He is right, I was wrong.

Mick

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## Jim Broyles

I have a question for those who objected to the wording "tailpiece cover is long gone." Why? if it's missing, it's missing. What is the difference, in the vast scheme of things? Just because you happen to know that the owner received the mandolin with the TP cover, how is it any business of yours what term he uses to describe the lack thereof in selling the instrument? Furthermore, "No case with this one" is quite unambiguous if you ask me. It means you don't get a case with it. Not, "I have a case but you can't have it," or any other nefarious, deceptive phrase. Sheesh. Sometimes the whole "we are not owners, merely stewards" crowd bugs me. The man can do whatever he wants with his legally acquired property, *EVEN IT IT WERE A LOAR F-5*, not that anyone in his right mind would.

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## Ed Goist

> I have a question for those who objected to the wording "tailpiece cover is long gone." Why? if it's missing, it's missing.


Because it is categorically not true. Why not just "no tailpiece cover"?
Moreover, the use of this phrase cleverly (and falsely) implies that the seller has a long association with the instrument. (One could only know that a tailpiece cover is "long gone", if one has had a long history with the instrument.)

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## Steve-o

Jim, I don't think it is an egregious overture, but do think it is disingenuous at best to state that the "tailpiece cover is long gone" when in fact it was taken off that day.  You may think that it is nobody's business how the OP chooses to describe the mandolin, but we are privy to the truth and the truth was bent.  Why not say there is no tailpiece cover, rather than imply that the cover and case are missing?  

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."

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## Jim Broyles

Well, I do not agree. And you would not object either if you had not first known how Vernon got the mandolin. It is not deception, it is telling people that they will not get a TP cover. Period. There should be no debate about this. Who, in buying that instrument  cares if the cover was taken off yesterday or 60 years ago?  If it were me and I knew the guy had it, I'd ask him how  much for the cover, but I'm going in with my eyes wide open and it isn't anybody else's business.

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## Steve-o

Jim, then let's agree to disagree.  We obviously have different standards.  I'm with Ed on this one.

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## Pete Summers

> I have a question for those who objected to the wording "tailpiece cover is long gone." Why? if it's missing, it's missing. What is the difference, in the vast scheme of things? Just because you happen to know that the owner received the mandolin with the TP cover, how is it any business of yours what term he uses to describe the lack thereof in selling the instrument? Furthermore, "No case with this one" is quite unambiguous if you ask me. It means you don't get a case with it. Not, "I have a case but you can't have it," or any other nefarious, deceptive phrase. Sheesh. Sometimes the whole "we are not owners, merely stewards" crowd bugs me. The man can do whatever he wants with his legally acquired property, *EVEN IT IT WERE A LOAR F-5*, not that anyone in his right mind would.


Ditto to that. Mandolins are tools for musicians as far as I'm concerned, not religious relics. The owner can cut it into splinters and flush it down the toilet if he wants to. It's his. On an "importance to world" scale of 1 to 100, the fate of a mandolin, Gibson or any other, ranks about 999,999th in my book.

As for the new owner's language in his Ebay ad, it's a piece of ad copy folks, not a translation of the Bible. It is not necessary for the man to explain his whole life to a potental Ebay purchaser. He bought a mandolin, changed some parts for reasons of his own, and is selling it again. So what?
 :Confused:

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## Ed Goist

> Well, I do not agree.


Jim, as a long time member of this Forum, with a long history of playing, buying and selling mandolins, I respectfully disagree.

...Of course, your time around here is much longer than mine, and relatively speaking, I'm new to the mandolin world, but why should any of that matter with respect to my claims above?

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## Potosimando

There are two different trains of thought here, and technically both are correct.  Our culture clearly reflects the divide:

_<political content not appropriate for this forum>_

And some of us don’t give a rip.  Why fine tune every little thing that we write or say, for crying out loud; why not twist the truth a little here and there and clean up the story? This matter will never be resolved here or in our culture at large, and I proposed that we just drop it.  Let’s get back to our interest in mandolins…a subject we can all agree on…sort of.

Most importantly (maybe the only thing that really matters):  Thanks, Vernon, for alerting us to the potential scammer re. your original post—obviously we much appreciate such warnings, which was your original intent.  That’s the kind of information that is productive around here.

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## Jim Broyles

For the record, length of membership on this forum  has no bearing on my opinions regarding your or anyone's stated position on t his matter. I simply believe that it isn't anyone here's business how the OP decides to describe his items for sale on eBay. 


> Because it is categorically not true. Why not just "no tailpiece cover"?
> Moreover, the use of this phrase cleverly (and falsely) implies that the seller has a long association with the instrument. (One could only know that a tailpiece cover is "long gone", if one has had a long history with the instrument.)


It is not _categorically_ not true. It's ad copy, like Pete said. You happen to know the recent history of the instrument, but that should have no bearing whatsoever on the matter. As I said before, it makes no difference to someone perusing that ad whether the cover is long gone, MIA or removed for re-sale, he/she knows it isn't included. That is enough. How anyone could possible care about how  it is *WORDED* escapes me.

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## Steve-o

> ...This matter will never be resolved here or in our culture at large, and I proposed that we just drop it.  Let’s get back to our interest in mandolins…a subject we can all agree on…sort of...


I respect your peace offering Potosimando, and agree that the argument could go on and on with little merit.  That said, I do think Ed made an excellent point, that those of us in your first group are looking for an honest up-front buying experience often found on the Cafe and lacking on Craigslist and eBay.  That is the very practical outcome of this discussion, and it's a personal choice.

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## Jim Broyles

Is this what you want?


For sale: 1922 Gibson A style mandolin. I bought this with the intention of removing any salable parts, while leaving the mandolin completely playable. I also put a better mandolin in the case so now you may buy it without a tailpiece cover, which I can get $150.00 for, and without the case which will bring more than $200.00.

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## Ed Goist

> For the record, length of membership on this forum  has no bearing on my opinions regarding your or anyone's stated position on t his matter. I simply believe that it isn't anyone here's business how the OP decides to describe his items for sale on eBay. 
> It is not _categorically_ not true. It's ad copy, like Pete said. You happen to know the recent history of the instrument, but that should have no bearing whatsoever on the matter. As I said before, it makes no difference to someone perusing that ad whether the cover is long gone, MIA or removed for re-sale, he/she knows it isn't included. That is enough. How anyone could possible care about how  it is *WORDED* escapes me.


Jim, I can't for the life of me understand why you are disagreeing with me.
This is all just forum copy. 
You happen to know the context of my statements, but that should have no bearing whatsoever on the matter.
How anyone could possibly care about how my argument is *WORDED* escapes me.

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## Jim Broyles

FWIW, I really don't see a parallel between your clever reiteration of my words and my original words. Apples and oranges. I'll let you have the last word.

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## Steve-o

> Is this what you want?
> 
> 
> For sale: 1922 Gibson A style mandolin. I bought this with the intention of removing any salable parts, while leaving the mandolin completely playable. I also put a better mandolin in the case so now you may buy it without a tailpiece cover, which I can get $150.00 for, and without the case which will bring more than $200.00.


Short answer:  Yes.  But you miss the point.  I want honest sellers who do not twist the truth because it makes better "ad copy."  And although it is perfectly legal and ethical IMHO, I do not like the "chop shop" approach to buying and selling instruments.

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## Ed Goist

> FWIW, I really don't see a parallel between your clever reiteration of my words and my original words. Apples and oranges. I'll let you have the last word.


Allow me to explain further...
You seem to be implying that the rules regarding factual descriptions of items are somehow different in ads than elsewhere.
You also seem to imply that it's somehow unfair and improper to point out a misrepresentation when one has a thorough knowledge of the situation and knows it to be a misrepresentation. Hence, you seem to be expressing the opinion that these misrepresentations are somehow acceptable because most potential buyers will not know the difference.
My argument, to put apple to apples, is that the truth is the truth and a lie is a lie.
If embellished and inaccurate statements are acceptable anywhere, they become acceptable everywhere.

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