# Music by Genre > Old-Time, Roots, Early Country, Cajun, Tex-Mex >  bowlback mandolin in old time

## JeffD

I don't know if there is a tradition of bowlback mandolins in old timey music - I suspect not, and I haven't heard of any, and the mandolin itself is kind of new to old time, but still.


I am having roaring good time playing my bowlback at OT jams. My Washburn (see my photo album) is a real boomer, and routinely blows the hair back.


Anyone else?


Lets show 'em that bowlback mandolin is not synonymous with classical mandolin.

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## allenhopkins

*Kenny Hall.*

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## John Flynn

And it's not just that he plays a bowlback, it's how he plays it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTU4_Apvplw

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## JeffD

Oh yea. He is pretty amazing.

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## Susanne

There is no tradition of any mandolin in oldtime music, but we'd better start one!!!

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## JeffD

> There is no tradition of any mandolin in oldtime music, but we'd better start one!!!


Yea boy!

Its amazing how hard it is to find any pictures of bowlbacks in an old time music context. I seem to remember seeing a small old tme music newsletter, from the turn of the last century or something, with two bowlback manolins on the cover, one in a picture being played along side banjo and fiddle, and another line drawing in the masthead.

But I can't find it anywhere, so I must have been dreaming.

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## Susanne

There is one on film, though. At the very end of Cold Mountain, when they're having a picknick, one of the guys is playing a bowlback.

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## JEStanek

Susi,
Jack White (of the White Stripes) also played his bowlback during the Christmas party on the farm earlier in the movie.  I was going to flippantly suggest that Jack White started the genuine Old Time Mandolin thing in Cold Mountain to get some folk's dander up but thought better of it... or did I just do it?  People had a lot to say about Jack White and Old Time music for the Cold Mountain Soundtrack.

Jamie

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## guitharsis

> And it's not just that he plays a bowlback, it's how he plays it!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTU4_Apvplw


I agree.  Wow.  Great!

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## Jim Garber

In the wedding scene in the last season of Deadwood there is a band with a bowlback, If i remember correctly. Of course, this is prob not right either since the series takes place in 1854 (I think) and mandolins were pretty rare esp in the US then.

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## allenhopkins

I think saying "there's no tradition of mandolin in oldtime music" is overstating the case.  Ted Hawkins played with the Skillet Lickers; Paul Buskirk played with the Callahan Brothers in the '30's.  Jack Grant played mandolin and banjo-mandolin with the Tenneva Ramblers, Jimmie Rodgers' back-up band.  And if you consider "brother duets" as part of oldtime music, well, there were mandolins galore being played: Monroe Brothers, Blue Sky Boys, Karl & Harty, etc. etc.  Patsy Montana's Prairie Ramblers even had a mandola player.

Obviously, a mandolin's not as common in an old-time band as it would be in a bluegrass band, but there was a lively mandolin presence in old-time music.  Bands back then weren't as consciously restrictive in instrument selection as they seem to be now; you had quite a few harmonica players in the old-time bands, and "odd" instruments, from banjo-ukulele to Autoharp to cello, were found in quite a few ensembles.

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## JeffD

> Obviously, a mandolin's not as common in an old-time band as it would be in a bluegrass band, but there was a lively mandolin presence in old-time music.  Bands back then weren't as consciously restrictive in instrument selection as they seem to be now; you had quite a few harmonica players in the old-time bands, and "odd" instruments, from banjo-ukulele to Autoharp to cello, were found in quite a few ensembles.


I quite agree. We are not the star or co-star of OT, as can be said of the fiddle and banjo, but we are an established part of the supporting cast, and probably ahead of the "third villager".

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## John Flynn

> I quite agree. We are not the star or co-star of OT, as can be said of the fiddle and banjo, but we are an established part of the supporting cast, and probably ahead of the "third villager".


I agree that's typically the case, and has been historically, but I don't agree that is necessarily the case. There are exceptions who prove that mandolin players can play whatever role we want in old-time, including being the "star." Some clear exceptions I see are Curtis Buckhannon and Clyde Curley. Then there are acts that straddle the line between bluegrass and old-time, but the mandolin is still the star: Skip Gorman; and Compton and Long. Then there are still other old-time acts where the mandolin is a strong"co-star" or "supporting actor," to keep with the movie rhetoric. Examples would be: The Ill-Mo Boys; The Sweets Mill String Band; Liedstrand, Lung and Green; and the Foghorn String Band. I'm sure there are other examples.

I took a mandolin workshop with Lil Rev once where he talk extensively about the role of the mandolin in old time. He is kind of a self-styled OT historian and he certainly is a walking encyclopedia of early OT recordings. He said the only thing that has ever held the mandolin back in the genre has been relative volume. His idea was that bowlbacks were around during the heyday of old time and probably played some role in small OT ensembles, but they lacked the volume and projection to keep up in the bigger ensembles. As the Gibson designs got out there, as well as banjo and resonator mandolins, the mandolin, which had been "waiting the wings" all along, started to come into its own. 

Today, we have instruments with a lot more volume, as well as electronic sound support. I think there is every reason that now the mandolin can step out of the shadows of OT and take up whatever roles the people who play them have the talent to fulfill.

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## JeffD

> I don't agree that is necessarily the case. There are exceptions who prove that mandolin players can play whatever role we want in old-time, including being the "star."


Again I think that is spot on.

And the examples you gave are the same ones I would site.


But hey, lets make it a bowlback this time.  :Grin:  Wouldn't it be cool if the bowlback became the "go-to" mandolin of old time. Why not? It would be like the violin having its evil twin in the fiddle. The bowlback, most often associated with classical mandolin, would have an evil twin in old time music. Think of what that would do to the manufacture and sales of bowlback mandolins. Well a fella can dream can't he?


About half the time I played at Swannanoa OT week I was on my Washburn. It has all the volume and punch. It did have what it takes. And it was a real hoot to play.

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## allenhopkins

Listen to *Hawkins Rag* -- sounds like a bowl-back to me.  Whaddaya think?

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## JeffD

> Whaddaya think?


Could be.

I can't find any pictures of Ted Hawkins playing a bowlback. That would sinch it.

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## JeffD

I found a vid of Devilish Mary, with R. Crumb on the bowlback! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J07sExHyCnY&NR=1

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## Doug Hoople

I'm no expert, but I'd kind of have a hard time believing that bowlbacks were not part of the original old-time scene. 

People were making music with the instruments that came to them by whatever means, and bowlbacks were in circulation in the rural areas, if not to the extent that they circulated in places like New York City (with its high concentration of Italian immigrants). They'd have made their way to the countryside with the big westward migrations. Mandolins probably got packed into the wagon more often than pianos, for example. 

They called them 'Tater Bugs, a distinctly rural term, because the bowls looked like the rounded backs of potato bugs. We largely remember the term because Jethro Burns named a song or two after them, but he was bringing it forward from where he had heard it.

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## Charles E.

First, Thank you Allen for your comments, spot on as usual. 
Second, of course mandolins were used in Old Time music! If you look in the Old Time Stringband Songbook ( New lost City Ramblers, Oak Publications ) there are numerious photos of mandolin players, alot of them bowlbacks. There is also a fair amount of examples of the mandolin being used in black stringbands from the 20's and 30's. People used whatever they could get their hands on ( including cello's ) and mandolins were readily available.

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## JeffD

> Second, of course mandolins were used in Old Time music! If you look in the Old Time Stringband Songbook ( New lost City Ramblers, Oak Publications ) there are numerious photos of mandolin players, alot of them bowlbacks.



I have that very book, and I just went through it again for the last ten minutes, and there are lots of great pictures in there, but I can't find a bowlback. Nope. Can't find a single one.

But in general I do agree that bowlbacks must have been played in OT music. I just can't find many pictures.

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## Henry Girvan

Hello,

I know that in the "Fiddlin' Powers Family Band" that his daughter Opha Lou played a bowlback mandolin.

Charles Powers - 5-string Banjo
Ada Powers - Ukulele
Opha Lou - Mandolin
Carrie Belle Powers - Guitar
James Cowan Powers - Fiddle

(I've tried to upload a photo, not sure if it is included in this message).

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## Charles E.

Sorry, I thought there was another on page 35 but after a closer look it appears to be a flat back. There is a cool photo of a guy playing a bowl back in the notes to Mandolin Classics vol. 1 though.

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## Charles E.

Here is one.

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## poymando

There are many, many pre WWII recordings of country/blues/ethnic music featuring or including the mandolin.

I wonder if modern (flat or carved instead of bowlback) mandolins were more in use in those days. Could "flat" mandos been cheaper or more available in catalogs? Would that kind of mandolin had more volume? 
Check this out:
http://www.earlyblues.com/blues_singers.htm
While only a few mandolins are listed they are all "flat" or banjo mandolins.

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## Eddie Sheehy

The Bowlback mandolin player in Deadwood is our own Rhinestone - Michael Johnstone.  He's got some cool pics of himself and bowlback in costume...

I sometimes take my Martin Style 4 to an OT session.  Can't compete with the banjos and the hammer-dulcimer though...

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## Paul Lucas

Nice thread on the mandolin and Old Time Music.  I'm working on a website devoted to the mandolin in Old Time Music. Old Time Mandolin Music -> http://www.oldtimemandolinmusic.com  It's still a work in progress, but you might find a couple of useful links.

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## Charles E.

Paul, great site! Thanks so much for putting this together.

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## Hans

Here's Kenny at Grass Valley a few years ago. Best workshop I ever walked into! The guy knows a thousand fiddle tunes...

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## Paul Lucas

Thanks Charley.  I'm a bit behind in updating the discography section.  If you have any suggestions for the site, please feel free to drop me a line.

Best always,
Paul.

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## Paul Lucas

> ... Examples would be: The Ill-Mo Boys; The Sweets Mill String Band; Liedstrand, Lung and Green; and the Foghorn String Band. ...


FYI... Cary Lung, as in the Lung in Liedstrand, Lung, and Green is playing mandolin in a Seattle based Old Time group called Reddog.  They just released a new CD -> http://www.reddogseattle.com/  Nice stuff.

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## JeffD

But with the outstanding exception of Kenny Hall, there are no mandolinists in OT today who play bowlback, are there? Not that I am aware of.

I mean mandolinists known for playing OT and known for playing bowlback, and best of all pictured with their band holding a bowback.

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## Charles E.

Here is a photo my friend Marshall Wyat ( Old Hat Records ) sent from his web site. 

http://www.oldhatrecords.com/gallery10-08.html

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## Charles E.

Here is another one from Early Mandolin Classics Vol 1

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## JeffD

Now we're talking!

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## Charles E.

Here is one more from Marshall Wyatt of Old Hat Records.
It is hard to tell if they are old time musicians or if they played popular or palour music. Any way a great photo.

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## billkilpatrick

> Hello,
> 
> I know that in the "Fiddlin' Powers Family Band" that his daughter Opha Lou played a bowlback mandolin.
> 
> Charles Powers - 5-string Banjo
> Ada Powers - Ukulele
> Opha Lou - Mandolin
> Carrie Belle Powers - Guitar
> James Cowan Powers - Fiddle
> ...


gad!  they look like they'd just as soon eat you ...

i'm a victim of preconceived notions ... to me, the bowlback sounds italian.

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## JeffD

> i'm a victim of preconceived notions ... to me, the bowlback sounds italian.



I am with you there. And that is kind of the problem I think, because except for some high end luthiers nobody in the US is making bowlbacks. The perception is probably, like yours, how many  Italian musicians could there be?

Whereas if the bowlback mandolin were more strongly associated with US roots music in general, perhaps some more would be manufactured. 

I know, I know, if if if, if my mother were a trolley car I would have wheels.


 :Mandosmiley:

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## allenhopkins

Well, the bowl-back _is_ (or was) Italian, but it was also by far the most prevalent style of mandolin in the US around the turn of the 20th century.  There were some canted-top flat-backs, and Orville G was just starting to make his carved-top instruments, but there were thousands and thousands of bowl-backs sold by music stores and mail-order catalogs.  It's totally logical to infer that many of the country musicians who took up mandolin, had bowl-back instruments.  Those were the mandolins that were around.
Mandolin was not all that common in the early-20th-century Southern string bands that recorded, and by the time it became more popular for "brother duet" singing, and later for pre-bluegrass and bluegrass, the bowl-back era in US country and pop music was largely over, and flat-back mandolins (Gibsons, Epiphones, some Martins, etc.) prevailed.  Bill Monroe's example, as the most recorded and emulated country music mandolinist, led to an almost exclusive concentration on Gibson F-style instruments.  Read enough threads here, and you'll get _that_ picture.
But I'll bet there were a bunch of country mandolin players playing bowl-backs 100 years ago.  That we can't find pictures or recordings of them, testifies to their rural setting and lack of recognition outside their immediate area.  Just as country musicians picked up the mail-order and mid-price guitars and banjos that made their way into the Southern uplands, they played the mandolins available to them.  And many of them were bowl-backs.

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## Samjessin

R.O. Moseley!  The fabulous Leake County Revelers.


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a%3DN%26um%3D1

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## Charles E.

Great site Sam. Here is one I never heard of but know a couple.

http://www.1001tunes.com/images/jackassband.jpg

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## Henry Girvan

Hello,

I have a later photo of the Powers Family which shows the bowlback mandolin a bit more clearly and they look a little more at ease.

(I hope this photo is attached)

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## Samjessin

Thanks Charles.  That is Ahmet Baycou (of music for the sky fame)'s site.  Very entertaining, interesting, and he will make you large mp3 cds for a small price.

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## Samjessin

Click on Doc Roberts' name to see his octave stringed bowlback on the piano bench instead of his lap where it ought to lie.  Also, click on the Stripling Bros. picture to see another round bellied lady.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a%3DN%26um%3D1

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## Cary Fagan

I found this photo on the Harp guitars website. Looks like they'd be playing old time to me.

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## JeffD

That is a fantastic picture. First of all two, no, three bowlbacks and a harp-guitar. (How cool is that!). But look at all the kids. A family outing. Just looking at them all you get to thinking what kinds of lives they had and will have in the time after this picture.

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## allenhopkins

> That is a fantastic picture. First of all two, no, three bowlbacks...


Two of which are 12-strings.

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## Samjessin

Wow! 12-string mandolin.  Quarter your fun.  Ever see one?

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## allenhopkins

> Wow! 12-string mandolin...Ever see one?


They're around; in Europe they're called "mandriolas."  Three unison strings per course instead of two.  There's a current thread by a 12-string owner looking to buy strings for his.

No major advantage over the 8-string variety, IMHO, but perhaps a "coolness" factor.  Others say they're harder to fret and pick cleanly.

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## Samjessin

Oh, three-string courses.  Sounds like a headache!

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## Cary Fagan

I might also point out that the mandolin player in the photo isn't playing any ordinary Washburn. He's got a pretty ornate, pricey model there.

On Sat. I'm playing a food market with my banjo friend and am thinking of also taking my bowlback for some of our old-time tunes.  I've also been playing it with groups of school kids, teaching them a song. I say, take out those bowlbacks!

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## JeffD

> I say, take out those bowlbacks!


Here here!  

 :Mandosmiley:

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