# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  Recording King by Gibson

## MikeEdgerton

A fun find on eBay this morning. Somebody needs this. NFI

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Recording-K...8AAOSwm31di9VP

This is basically a Kalamazoo KM-11 branded for Montgomery Ward.

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brunello97

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## William Smith

Yes I seen that sweet ole gal Mike! There are also some nice Cromwell mandolins and archtops on evilbay! There are loads of great old depression era guitars and mandolins on there that can be had for really great prices-just yesterday I won a super KOOL 1930's Orpheum fancy "New Yorker" archtop for well under 400 bucks and it sure looks sweet, I'm sure it'll sound the part as well? If one had the time and $ you can find all sorts of deals and steals on there if your into the vibe of the old stuff! A ton of those "budget brand" 30's guitars will give any high dollar name brand a serious run for the $$$ I think anyway.

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## NickR

William Smith: That Orpheum is great To my eye it is 1940s. Nice tuners on it. Now, I would not be surprised if that is a Harmony pickguard on this Kay made guitar. I could be wrong but be ready to find another hole in the top a little below where the screw goes through the guard that is on it! I have somewhat similar markers on the board of my 1941 Silvertone Crest which was made by Kay. I need a pickguard just like that one for my Cremona IV! there is an Orpheum Kay 72 mandolin on ebay- I emailed the guy to tell him what it is- it is not a Stradolin! He's asking too much as it needs a neck reset but it is all there. I need a pickguard for one of those as well!

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William Smith

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## William Smith

Yeah I figured it was 30's-40's, I thought it was quite nice, funny I have that exact Orpheum mando saved in my watch list! It needs a neck set-I guess I didn't look too much at her, I thought it was gorgeous at first look! What is a Cremona IV? There are so many great 30's and 40's instrument budget brands I can't keep them all straight! I thought I did pretty good picking up that Orpheum New Yorker for what I paid! I have a soft spot for all those odd ball 30's Guitars and mandolins!

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## NickR

It;s a Harmony Cremona IV:  http://harmony.demont.net/guitars/H1304/55.htm  Mine was made in 1942 and I have another- with a rosewood pickguard from 1942 that was sold as a Biltmore Commando. I think this is from WW2 as well- not 1947. Mine originally had the rosewood tailpiece but I assume it broke:

https://reverb.com/item/5817262-kay-...-1947-sunburst

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William Smith

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## William Smith

GREAT stuff NickR-I think you helped open up a can of worms for me with all these fine old archtops as they can be had at spectacular prices and they are all gorgeous! I just popped on a 1932 Lloyd Loar ViviTone Hawaiian guitar that's about museum quality from Eric Shoenberg! She is awesome looking and from what I could tell has the sound! I sure don't need any other instruments but for the prices and quality of these things well what does one do? I'm happy I have a wife who always says "buy it" Now with a wife like that who can complain!

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## Eric Platt

Okay, on that Recording King the last person to string it may have been a bit, uh, distracted? G strings cross below the bridge and one of the A strings is wound around backwards on the post. 

Maybe the owner was doing more than just playing "Tipping Back the Corn".

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## NickR

I saved this mandolin a few days ago- it has great potential- and I know from experience when I get a string wrong, I am tempted to leave it!

I think I am going to give up buying from the USA as the import charges now levied by the crooks in the UK have become excessive. When I collected my cheap $49 Regal from the depot I had to pay a ludicrous charge. In our money an item up to £15 attracts no charge. This instrument was £39 yet that extra £24 over the threshold cost me £29 in charges- a minimal amount for duty but full "value added tax" on the instrument and outrageously on the shipping plus a "handling charge." It has become a mug's game trying to import from the USA. However, if we got a trade deal, this would end.

The Regal was easily mended but the seller did not ship the bridge- I imagine it has been lost- probably chucked out. This is a real pain as it was an original item and I have no substitute.

William Smith: I wrote this elsewhere on another thread here the other day:

"On the matter of Chicago instruments. I managed to get my massively experienced mender/maker to work on my 1942 Harmony Cremona IV, which is hand carved. This was his first time with such an instrument and his comment was, that the workmanship and quality was every bit as good as anything he had seen from the more celebrated makers- you know who I am referring to. He went on to say that it was a great sounding instrument and he now understood why, with prices at their current levels, some would buy such an instrument which represented a good bargain- assuming others were made to this quality."

I will not go into detail about this man- I did post up a video of one of his restorations- a historic instrument now owned by a household name.

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William Smith

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## William Smith

The more I study those 30's and 40's carved topped catalog/budget guitars the more I'm impressed! It seems even those there was serious pride going on in the building of these! I picked up a 40's Harmony Monterery A model mandolin a year or so ago off evibay as it needed a tailpiece, bridge, tuners but was all there and had the neat original guard, also the one tone bar a 2x4 was floating around on the inside, I gave it to my Dad to fix and he did a great job and what a great little A tone machine that turned out to be! I had all the hardware and he popped the back off and put in some tone bars in the correct Loar style position but it was well under 100 bucks! Once I get my little shop up and going this is the stuff I'll be doing-getting instruments like that and re-working them or getting those great old archtops and most just need a set up and I should be able to at least get them in players hands for what I have in them, maybe a touch more-I'm not doing this to make $ just a hobby to give new life to these things! I think they are all very gorgeous-I've seen some all black archtops from the 30's on evilbay and well I do love that all black look!

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## MikeEdgerton

According to Joe Spann's book in 1934 FON 961 related to a batch of KM-11 Mandolins, basically this mandolin with the Kalamazoo label. I'm going to hazard a guess that at least one wasn't branded Kalamazoo. That would fall in line with the headstock shape on this mandolin. A later use of the same FON (minus a letter) is actually a Recording King guitar. They could have also been cleaning out instruments that were already built at a later date and labeling them for Montgomery Ward. The Gibson second lines are all over the place.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Now, I would not be surprised if that is a Harmony pickguard on this Kay made guitar.


Harmony sold repair pieces like pickguards and tuners and bridges through distributors all over the country. Couple that with the fact that all of the Chicago builders bought parts from the same jobbers and the mix is inevitable. I've seen instruments obviously built by one company labeled as another. I assume when things got tight they even bought from each other to fill orders. In the 60's I was buying parts that were showing up on Harmony instruments from the catalog of the L.D. Heater Company in Portland, Oregon. I have no idea how long they had actually been in stock at Heater but it was an old company.

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## NickR

Here is the same New Yorker. No pickguard but you can see the hole is further down the top than on William Smith's guitar. Harmony guitars always have a guard that goes to the extreme edge of the top. Kay guitars in 99% of them leave a margin to the extreme top edge. In the late 30s many Kay guitars also used a bracket- rather than a hole for the top fixing. However this shows a hole. The pickguard on William Smith's guitar goes to the edge- it is a Harmony guard- and the screw goes in just under the binding- as it would on a Harmony guitar which is why I think there will be another hole further down as in this guitar. As far as I can tell, the original guard was probably emblazoned with the Orpheum name- it was on the slightly earlier version which also has that top bracket which Kay decided to dispense with and went drilling into the tops! That is down below the later version like William's:

https://reverb.com/item/11043628-orp...1940s-sunburst

https://reverb.com/item/229769-orphe...930-s-sunburst

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## ollaimh

i saw that one.  it's probably well worth fixing up. doesn't look like it needs much

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## William Smith

> Here is the same New Yorker. No pickguard but you can see the hole is further down the top than on William Smith's guitar. Harmony guitars always have a guard that goes to the extreme edge of the top. Kay guitars in 99% of them leave a margin to the extreme top edge. In the late 30s many Kay guitars also used a bracket- rather than a hole for the top fixing. However this shows a hole. The pickguard on William Smith's guitar goes to the edge- it is a Harmony guard- and the screw goes in just under the binding- as it would on a Harmony guitar which is why I think there will be another hole further down as in this guitar. As far as I can tell, the original guard was probably emblazoned with the Orpheum name- it was on the slightly earlier version which also has that top bracket which Kay decided to dispense with and went drilling into the tops! That is down below the later version like William's:
> 
> https://reverb.com/item/11043628-orp...1940s-sunburst
> 
> https://reverb.com/item/229769-orphe...930-s-sunburst


So you think the one I have coming would've had the fancy pickguard shown in the last "reverb" post of the one that sold? I'd like to find an original guard if that's the case but I highly doubt I'll find one as I imagine they only came with that "New Yorker-Orpheum" I doubt anyone makes a perfect replica? The price on the one on Reverb like mine that sold was a hefty price so I think I did rather well on what I paid even if the guard is a harmony-correct vintage replacement? I think all these from the 30's-40's regardless of the make are very nice and way underrated! I'll be on the lookout for more deals like these-Its too bad that the mandolin on evilbay needs a neck set that's an Orpheum-I like it but only if the price was right!

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## MikeEdgerton

A decent luthier could replicate the guard and a decent artist could replicate the decoration. It was probably screened on there and not inlaid or anything. By the way, about half the "original" pickguards on a large number of Kay and Harmony archtops sold in a five year period on eBay were created and aged in my garage. I had a real cottage cottage industry going several years ago until it just got boring. It's not that hard after you get the pattern down. The best part is that old pickguard material can come from some interesting places. When you buy a restored antique automobile I can guarantee many of the parts are replacements.

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William Smith

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## William Smith

So Mike do you happen to have the empire state building guard I need for my new toy?

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## NickR

William Smith- you need one with King Kong- or David Bromberg atop the Empire State Building!

I think your guitar is from the 40s- can't be too certain about when. However, if it is early 40s, I would reckon it had the same guard- but just screwed into the top- not having the second bracket. When it arrives, check for that second hole! Likewise, the tailpiece is not original. My luthier made me a fantastic replacement guard for my Ward's A50- he has given it the thin white plastic binding like the original and made the thicker part by layering on a slice of celluloid- it is identical to the crumbling original. However he did add that transparent layer of Plexiglas to make it less prone to bending. He charged me pennies for this- I got the celluloid from China. Apparently, there are moves afoot to stop it being shipped- some kind of hazard- or some other reason that is probably total BS. 

That Kay 72 Orpheum may go down a lot further. Mine did not cost that much. There was one in perfect condition- the blond K74 that did not fetch that much, either. This is it on Reverb- I once bought an old Harmony/Supertone from this guy. When it arrived, he had "double boxed" it. The inner box was a soft case for a Harmony Sovereign- something I needed. He said he did it because of my very prompt payment. I'm always prompt in coughing up but he's the only seller who has responded in such a generous way. Anyway he sold it on eBay for a lot less than the price shown here on Reverb. He had an identical model that was battered that went for about $150 as well- he said it played well and sounded good- it had a post inside it and quite a lot of finish damage. I can't remember if it had its guard. As I wrote- I want a guard! I think my Kay 72 needs to go to the luthier -it plays fine but there is a bit of a bend up near the nut. I think the neck has been meddled with in the past.
https://reverb.com/uk/item/12615940-...birdseye-maple

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## William Smith

Maybe PM on who could do the guard/tailpiece etc...Funny on the Bromberg mention as my Uncle Gene Johnson played mandolin in his quintet in the mid 80's, they had a great recording Live in NYC-for some reason they couldn't say it was Carnegie Hall but that's where that recording took place-great stuff!

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## NickR

You may be able to get an old Kay pickguard that is white and the same shape- then you could get an artist to paint it up!

Fancy, your uncle playing for David Bromberg! I was in Manny's Music in 1995- my first trip to the city. There was a man who played great flat top and mandolin. I got talking to him and told him he was a "real David Bromberg." This did not please him one bit- he was not a Bromberg fan- said they had fallen out on some Peace Corps tour back in 1967! Anyway, he was pretty damned good!

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William Smith

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## NickR

This guy makes pickguards. He may be happy to make up one for you in white. I bought a guard off him over four years ago. Here is one of his Kay guards. Wait until you get your guitar- it may have been a two bracket model- but I think it is a single bracket and you will find that second hole. He might be able to do one by adapting this style to being similar to that other New Yorker that shows the pickguard. Take a look at his other pickguards:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pickguard-F...oAAOSwiUhc2p6I

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William Smith

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## MikeEdgerton

Any luthier worth his salt could look at the picture and your guitar and get that guard right. The painting will take a little more. I gave my templates away to one of the guys I was making guards for. Get a good picture of the one you want and ask around. Those guards didn't have binding or anything.

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## brunello97

> A fun find on eBay this morning. Somebody needs this. NFI
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Recording-K...8AAOSwm31di9VP
> 
> This is basically a Kalamazoo KM-11 branded for Montgomery Ward.


These are good mandolins.  I've owned more than a few of the Kalamazoo labeled ones.  

Maybe I ought to bid on this one, too.  My daddy was a big Monkey Wards fan.  It was his Amazon.com.

Mick

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## William Smith

I know this thread is on the Recording King "Gibson depression budget stuff" But I find all these old 30's and 40's Chicago built instruments fascinating! The build quality is there and sound as well from previous examples I've played. I just don't believe how cheap some can be had for in the world of arch top guitars and for sure the ones with obvious carved tops and backs? I take it the ones with segmented F-holes would be pressed tops while the normal F-holes would be carved? But then you have to look at period budget brands like Cromwell and they have regular F-holes and are heat pressed rather than carved and way overbuilt at least my 36 Gumby F-style Cromwell is, the back brace is like a 2x4, as is the original bridge, I don't believe I've ever looked inside the top to check the bracing but I imagine its pretty stout! Its all really neat history.

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## NickR

I have two Harmony Cremona IV guitars- they are both stamped CARVED TOP and have the same year of build- F42. One was sold as a Biltmore Commando and this has single cut f holes while the Harmony branded version has segmented f holes. It seems to me that in the 30s the segmented variety was all the rage and this died away in the 1940s.

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## MikeEdgerton

There is no correlation between segmented F holes and pressed vs. Carved that I have ever seen.

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## NickR

Mike, did you mean to write "no" before the word correlation? That's my sentiment exactly.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Mike, did you mean to write "no" before the word correlation? That's my sentiment exactly.


Yes, I fixed that, thanks. The late Paul Hostetter thought at one time there might be but we kept coming up with exceptions to the rule.

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## William Smith

Ok a little bit ago the late 30's-40's-I'm leaning toward early 40's build Orpheum New Yorker. It made it to my place and I waited about two hours and cracked into the box, came with no case-bummer but expected that, also it has a top crack that's a wee bit open between the D and G strings between end of board and bridge "dead Center" then past bridge to lower bought its a hairline, also a bass F-hole crack that's been mended, the tuners are replacements but work well and appear 40's, the tailpiece may be a harmony but I don't think its for this New Yorker? The pickguard looks harmony from that era but there is another hole on the top but not on the treble side top where a bracket would be?
  The whole thing is laminated wood, but a great job! Also it looks original but no idea as I'm a novice on things that aren't Gibson or Martin but there is a screw that's recessed into the heal but doesn't go through the inside head block, it looks very old and like its been there the whole time? Its no 16 inch Gibson L-5 but for what I paid I'm very happy as it has a great neck/board/frets/intonation is spot on all over the board and it has some really decent power on those Jazzy type chords/phrasing! And has that old sound! Most all I have is very high end so I won't be afraid to leave this one out to play when the mood strikes!

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## NickR

William Smith. I am pleased it has turned out well- although a few cracks and things. Those tuners look to be good quality. I saw that one of those New Yorker guitars had the enclosed Klusons tuners in strips. My 1941 Kay made Silvertone Crest has those tuners and all the buttons had crumbled. This may have happened to your guitar as well- hence the new tuners. The tailpiece is not original- it looks like the sort used on a flat top with a floating bridge- not an archtop. I think Kay did make some very good instruments in the late 30s and 40s- and the laminated wood was good stuff- not rubbish. I have no idea why there is a screw in the heel- some idiosyncrasy, I guess. It is interesting that you have some high end guitars to compare this one with to judge its sound. When you consider the price differential, you are right to say this sort of buy represents great value- as long as the guitar is a player.
My expert is just finishing off my Harmony H162 flat top- that must have spent 55 years under a bed- no play wear just a bent neck. He's going downmarket for me!
I don't suppose you have a bridge for a Regal archtop mandolin. One like this one below. You can see my comment at the bottom of this article!

https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/20...-mandolin.html

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William Smith

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## William Smith

Thanks, I'll look as I have some wide rosewood 30's bridges-but came off Gibson's! Yes this New Yorker is a player for sure-great neck, tone, intonates perfect all over the board. Really swell power also! And for the $ I can't complain! PM your address and I'll get you out a wide 30's Gibson bridge, they look about the same?

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## NickR

William Smith. That is very kind of you. Here is a photo that shows such a bridge- I need a pickguard like it for my Regal Custom. My Regal Custom mandolin does have a much nicer bridge which I am sure is original. I cannot upload the photo that shows the bridge- it is described as "invalid file" which may be some copyright problem. I don' know. It is here at this address:

https://reverb.com/item/10275786-reg...-mandolin-1930

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## MikeEdgerton

> William Smith. That is very kind of you. Here is a photo that shows such a bridge- I need a pickguard like it for my Regal Custom. My Regal Custom mandolin does have a much nicer bridge which I am sure is original. I cannot upload the photo that shows the bridge- it is described as "invalid file" which may be some copyright problem. I don' know. It is here at this address:
> 
> https://reverb.com/item/10275786-reg...-mandolin-1930


Here is the image.

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## NickR

Mike, thank you for doing that. I am experienceing some problems with uploading photos- it may be since my computer had an update- the usual retrograde experience. I have ordered a bridge that is reckoned to be good for a Harmony tenor guitar. I have ordered one for my Harmony Monterey from 1940. If it is also suitable for the Regal/ Wards mandolin- that means it sits okay and does not need to be massively modified, I will order another. This is the UK eBay but the item is in NYC. The original bridge- as in the photo uploaded by Mike is not compensated- the one on my Regal Custom is. Obviously, the original bridge is not perfect but it would sit okay- the top is not distorted on the mandolin and I am sure it will play okay. The body is huge- 10.5 inches wide and 13 long! No cracks- I think it is all solid wood but the sides and back may not be- as an f hole you cannot see much inside.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/293174558984

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## MikeEdgerton

When you right click and save an image on Reverb it doesn't give you the image file. You have to do a screen capture and save.

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## NickR

Mike, I had done that and had the image saved. I then saved it to my desktop to upload but got that message. However, I have other difficulties which make me feel there is something amiss with my system.

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## William Smith

> William Smith. That is very kind of you. Here is a photo that shows such a bridge- I need a pickguard like it for my Regal Custom. My Regal Custom mandolin does have a much nicer bridge which I am sure is original. I cannot upload the photo that shows the bridge- it is described as "invalid file" which may be some copyright problem. I don' know. It is here at this address:
> 
> https://reverb.com/item/10275786-reg...-mandolin-1930


Hey Buddy, I checked and mine are not like that one at all in the photo's? The ones I have were used on the wide bell shaped A-1's and A-50's of the late 30's-they are longer base? Sorry but I gave her a try for you, that one Mike showed on evilbay looks real close to what you need?

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## MikeEdgerton

This eBay seller Bezdez from Canada usually has *these* bridges available.

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## NickR

William and Mike

Thank you for your efforts. In fact, Mike, I bought one of those bridges with a view to getting it adapted for my Monterey tenor guitar- but it is all wrong- and likewise for the mandolin. However, I did buy a non-adjustable mandolin bridge from the same seller for the Monterey- it worked well- that other bridge is way too tall. I bought a job lot of bridges and replaced the Monterey's bridge with another one because it was not quite tall enough. I have now filed it down and it works on my Regal/Wards mandolin! I get a bit of buzz on the G strings above fret 12- it is a 2mm action at that point. However, I have strung it with extra light strings- so when I go up a gauge in due course that may sort itself out. I can cut some very small notches on the saddle if need be as the ones I made a perhaps a little too deep- it will look a bit icky but that would also work. It will look like a job done by me! However, the mandolin sounds pretty good  and I will give it a bit of a spanking tomorrow and get it photographed.

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## brunello97

> A fun find on eBay this morning. Somebody needs this. NFI
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Recording-K...8AAOSwm31di9VP
> 
> This is basically a Kalamazoo KM-11 branded for Montgomery Ward.


The Recording King / Gibson sold for ~$327.... Not a bad price, as the KM-11s often go above 4 Benjamins.  

Mick

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## ollaimh

one is 700 cad and the other 2300 cad??? wth???

- - - Updated - - -




> The Recording King / Gibson sold for ~$327.... Not a bad price, as the KM-11s often go above 4 Benjamins.  
> 
> Mick


yeah looks good for the right person at that price

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