# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  Another fake gibson

## Dave Hanson

Another fake Gibson up for auction on eBay, item number 130243288191 first it says Gibson A5 then A4 and it's not even an attempt at a copy, just a fake label and the Gibson logo on the peghead. 

I've informed the vendor, lets see what happens.

Dave H

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## Joel Spaulding

See the aforementioned gem, in all its glory: HERE

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## TomTyrrell

Somebody in Texas made a bunch of these things. That's the third one I've seen (different serial numbers) and I haven't really been looking.

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## Celtic Saguaro

Oh, my. It doesn't look like it's worth what the shipping would cost.

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## Jim Broyles

I contacted him and he replied that he was going to end the auction.

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## Jim Broyles

It's gone.

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## cooper4205

> Somebody in Texas made a bunch of these things. That's the third one I've seen (different serial numbers) and I haven't really been looking.


I noticed that too, they're all pretty much the same Johnson/Hondo style mandolins too.

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## Chiledog

In Aransas Pass of all things, that's about 30 minutes down the road from me. Yikes!

Todd

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## mrmando

Here's <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/BEAUTIFUL-GIBSON-MANDOLIN-A-4-WITH-CASE-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ280253130997QQihZ018QQcategory
Z10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">No. 4</a>...

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## Gutbucket

Ya it's junk, but you get that cool gig bag.

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## Joel Spaulding

> Here's <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/BEAUTIFUL-GIBSON-MANDOLIN-A-4-WITH-CASE-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ280253130997QQihZ018QQcategory
> 
> 
> Z10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">No. 4</a>...


The seller even provides a nice shot of the interior label.
Gibson A-4 made in Bozeman, Montana? # 

 #

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## mrmando

This seller's digging in, claiming he "ran the serial number" and learned that the instrument was produced "in 1996 at the Nashville plant." Which is a bit weird, since the label says Bozeman.

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## Dave Hanson

Thats the same mandolin as the one I first mentioned, needs reporting again.

Dave H

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## mrmando

Well, I done reported it and told the seller what the problem is. Like I said, he's digging in.

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## Jim Broyles

Yeah, he responded to me that it show (sic) it was produced in Nashville. I pointed out that the label says Bozeman, MT and since the label and the number don't match it ought to tell him something. The last three guys removed the mandolins from eBay, let's see what happens here.

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## F5GRun

Oh no there are 9 bids!!!!

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## Bill Snyder

I know there is NO question that this is not a Gibson. I am wondering when was the last time Gibson built oval holed mandolins? Maybe if someone contacts him with that information he will pull the auction.

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## Jim Broyles

Now he's getting testy:



> Are you some kind of expert?
> 
> if you are maybe I can pay you to inspect the rest of my 800 guitars?

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## Jim Broyles

Well, he has been told that the A4 was discontinued in 1935 and that if he searches "Kona Mandolin" on eBay, he'll find his mandolin before alterations.

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## mrmando

You should take him up on his offer to inspect his guitars! At $35 per instrument, you could make a tidy sum.

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## Jim Broyles

12 bids now. I hope the high bidder is a Cafe member with no intention of paying for it. I wonder what eBay would do if you could prove an item was fake and you only bid on it to protect the less informed?

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## Jim Broyles

I tried to report the item, but I get this:



> Item number you are reporting
> Please enter a valid item number for a listing that has not ended.


The item number is definitely right and the listing is still there, unless it was just removed and hasn't been processed yet.

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## Jim Broyles

Nope, I was doing it wrong. Now it's reported.

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## Bill Snyder

> 12 bids now. I hope the high bidder is a Cafe member with no intention of paying for it. I wonder what eBay would do if you could prove an item was fake and you only bid on it to protect the less informed?


There used to be a Cafe member that would do just that. He would bid the mandolins up to Loaresque like prices so that he would not be overbid. I do not know how he handled the non-paying bidder part though.

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## Jim Broyles

Well, I just told him that if he didn't remove it I would do just that. It might be a hassle, but there is no doubt that I can prove fraud so it should not ultimately affect my rating on eBay.

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## phiddlepicker

"The seller ended this listing early because of an error in the listing."

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## Jim Broyles

The third one ended, but the fourth one is still up.

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## Jason Nagati

The serial numbers on both seem to be anagrams of each other.

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## Jim Broyles

It's a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Kona-Signature-A-Style-Mandolin-Crimson-Burst-NEW_W0QQitemZ360076482461QQihZ023QQcategoryZ
10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Kona </a>

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## markishandsome

> Well, I just told him that if he didn't remove it I would do just that. It might be a hassle, but there is no doubt that I can prove fraud so it should not ultimately affect my rating on eBay.


He would just block you from bidding. It might work if you hadn't already told him you had no intention of paying. But even if you did win it he'd just relist it when you didn't pay. This guy is a meathead. Having a SN that is almost consistent with what would be on a real gibson proves nothing. I could scribble 73987 on an old shoebox, but it wouldn't make it Bill's Loar. Unless the Gibson SWAT team smashes this instrument over the guys head, he's going to sucker somebody.

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## f5loar

I knew the cafe would come through on this mystery Gibson.
I emailed the seller to tell him to view the Kona item number. Then told him this is the same as someone selling you a $20 Rolex watch in a bathroom in New York City. 
It's a $60 up to $200 now because some fool thinks they are getting a real Gibson. I'm surprised Gibson has not stepped in on this one. Talk about ruining your reputation over $60.

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## Dave Hanson

I've reported it to eBay twice and it's still there, what a pathetic organisation to allow fraudulent listings.

Dave H

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## markishandsome

Pathetic is a little harsh. There are millions of listings on ebay at any one time. They can't possibly stay on top of every $60 auction some dude emails them about. Fraud is also a very serious allegation as it implies the seller knows his instrument is a phony, which I don't think he does. We often forget here that 99% of people in the world don't know the difference between a mandolin and a ukulele. The bidders on this auction share part of the responsibility too.

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## mrmando

Well, he knows it's a phony now ... he's had it explained to him by several knowledgeable people. Leaving the auction up could be construed as attempted fraud.

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## Jim Broyles

Yeah, he knows.

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## Jim Broyles

Up to $305.00 now. The high bidder has 4 bids. I hope it's someone who knows what it is and has no intention of paying.

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## MikeEdgerton

Man, this guy isn't even inlaying pearl, just a decal and a sticker. Talk about lazy.

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## Jim Broyles

I posted a guide on eBay about these fakes. Maybe somebody will be spared from spending good money on a $75.00 mandolin.

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## markishandsome

> Well, he knows it's a phony now ... he's had it explained to him by several knowledgeable people.


When I've sold instruments on ebay, I've often received belligerent messages from folks who considered themselves quite knowledgeable accusing me of all sorts of misdeeds. That's just par for the course. This clown thinks HE's the knowledgeable one, and a couple nasty emails aren't going to change his mind.

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## Eric F.

> I wonder what eBay would do if you could prove an item was fake and you only bid on it to protect the less informed?


They suspend your account for a couple of weeks.

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## allenhopkins

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> I wonder what eBay would do if you could prove an item was fake and you only bid on it to protect the less informed?
> 
> 
> They suspend your account for a couple of weeks.


No good deed goes unpunished.

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## Dave Hanson

The vendor knows it's a fake and ebay know it's a fake because it's been reported several times and yet it's still there, this just confirms ebays poor reputation on fake and counterfeit goods.

Dave H

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## mrmando

Somebody with zero feedback won for $650. I e-mailed a warning to the winner, but I'm guessing it's someone from here who opened a new eBay account just to hose this auction ... anyone want to own up?

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## Jim Broyles

I emailed to ask if he only bought it to expose the counterfeiter. What do you say to someone when you know they overpaid for a fake item?

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## Brad Weiss

Two bidders went back and forth from $250 up to $650!! Oh dear. #I hope the scammer was scammed, but I have my doubts...

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## mrmando

I've been in touch with the dude, and this was not a scam-the-scammer operation. It's a first-time eBayer getting scammed. And unfortunately he's already paid. I've told him to call Gibson and talk to someone at OAI. Maybe I can get him to post here and put him in touch with David Harvey.

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## Jim Broyles

Oh no! He needs to file a report with eBay and call PayPal and cancel the payment.

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## cooper4205

> It's a first-time eBayer getting scammed. And unfortunately he's already paid.


wow, you think he would have at least Googled "Gibson A4" to see if this remotely resembled one (which anyone could tell it doesn't). I guess some people don't research things before they plop down the dough.

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## downtowner

I swore because of the 0% feedback that it was one of you guys opening a new account. I emailed him and likened him to a soldier jumping on a live grenade. Poor guy.

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## markishandsome

Wow, that's a shame. Buyer beware.




> The vendor knows it's a fake and ebay know it's a fake because it's been reported several times...


From ebay's point of view, it's your word against his. He's a Power Seller with good feedback, you're some dude. They don't "know it's a fake" just because you said so. Obviously they should have stopped the auction, but I can understand their hesitation to shut down every auction they receive complaints about (read: most of them).

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## Jim Broyles

I believe that we need to establish an email hot line with Gibson so we can report these fakes to them and let them take the appropriate steps. At this point we'd just be being busybodies, but if it were in place and they expected it maybe it would eliminate some of these scammers. Maybe it's just a nuisance to Gibson and they don't want to be bothered with these two-bit counterfeiters, who knows?

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## markishandsome

Based on Gibson's frequent high-profile lawsuits, I wouldn't be surprised if they leaned on ebay for not stopping phony auctions. They'd focus on electric guitars of course, but maybe they could avert some situations like this.

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## mrmando

Except that Tiffany's sued eBay and lost. I'm not sure what argument would be available to Gibson that wasn't available to Tiffany's.

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## Jim Broyles

I would think that Gibson would be more interested in finding and leaning on the people who were actually doing the counterfeiting of their products. If they found this guy and put him out of business, that, especially if publicized in a widely read forum such as the Mandolin Cafe, would go a long way toward eliminating this sort of thing.

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## Dave Hanson

I think the only counterfeit bit was the fake label inside, and that wasn't even a reasonable copy, the mandolin itself wasn't actually a copy, just a plywood cheapo with a Gibson logo on the peghead.

Dave H

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## phiddlepicker

According to Gibson's website criminal use of a trademark is apparently a felony. They have a link on the lifestyle site to an article about counterfeit instruments.

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## mrmando

Here we go again.

Anyone know David Harvey? Feel like directing his attention to this thread? This is at least the fifth one.

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## cooper4205

> Here we go again.
> 
> Anyone know David Harvey? Feel like directing his attention to this thread? This is at least the fifth one.


wow, looks like Texas has a mandolin counterfeiting ring on it's hands. This one looks to be the same make/brand, expect the f-hole version.

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## Jim Broyles

No, this one is the Johnson fraud, the A4 is the Kona fraud. Has anybody emailed the seller yet. The last one ignored me and took a poor soul for 650 bucks.

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## Jim Broyles

Gibson has responded thanking me and saying that its legal department will investigate.

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## Bill Snyder

I contacted the seller of the latest fake. He responded by asking me how he could spot these, but he has not pulled the auction.

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## Jim Broyles

Gibson has been informed about all 5 of them that we have spotted so far. There are probably others that did not get listed on eBay. I think the legal dept at Gibson will be in contact with the sellers at the very least. If they are not guilty of anything more than ignorance at least they should be able to direct Gibson to where they got them from. The one that sold for $650.00 last week - I have no doubt the seller had his doubts about the authenticity of the mandolin but went ahead and sold it anyway. I hope he pays.

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## Links

I think the Tiffany versus Ebay suit was basically that Ebay has no legal obligation to "police" whether or not Tiffany items sold on their site are legit. It had nothing to do with Tiffany defending it's own trademark. I agreed with the ruling, although I think Ebay has an ethical responsibility to remove items that they are "alerted" about as counterfeits -  much as they often do when someone points out that an item is a scam. It seems like they make enough money to hire "experts" to monitor some of their most aggregious catagories.

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## Jim Broyles

I'm not sure if I believe that eBay "has an ethical responsibility to remove items that they are "alerted" about as counterfeits" because it is unverifiable from their point of view. I believe that if they _know without a doubt_  that an item is a counterfeit, then they have that ethical responsibility. FWIW, no item I have ever alerted them about has been removed by eBay, nor should it be on my say-so. My opinion is that they should investigate all such alerts and if true remove the item and ban the seller for life. And they need to do it by a means which is enforceable, not just email address. There are so many categories which are scam havens it would be practically impossible to police them all. We know mandolins, maybe they should hire a cafe member to police the mandolin scam market, and have similar arrangements with other hobby, collectable or what-have-you sites.

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## mrmando

The latest one has been relisted with a lower price.

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## Links

JBmando - yeah, I agree regarding removing items on an "alert". I really intended to imply that they should investigate and make certain that items are fake before acting. Many of the folks that "alert" them have no clue whether something is real or not. That is why I thought they could afford to "hire" their own experts. It sure doesn't seem to be a problem for the Mandolin Cafe members to recognize a fake. I am sure other sites do the same for their area of interest.

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## f5loar

These "Gibson" A4's are showing up so much from different parts of the country I'm being to think they were made up in China/Korea/etc and made with the Gibson logo name and label vs. some individual mass making them in the USA.
Paying $650 for a $65 import mandolin should be criminal in nature and sellers proscuted the fullest extent of the law of that state. Especially when you willing and knowlingly after notification to continue to sell it as the real deal when you were warned it was a fake. Anyway I was in NewYork City last week and got a super deal on a genuine Rolex diamond watch in a subway bathroom area. I'm willing to pass the savings on to you and the first person to send me $50 the watch is yours and I'll pay postage.

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## markishandsome

I thought they were all in texas?

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## mrmando

Yeah, so far all the ones I've seen on eBay were in Texas. However, Tom could still be right about the "customization" being done in China. _Somebody_ who supplies instruments to Texas pawnshops is counterfeiting, and I'd sure like to know who it is.

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## morristownmando

There is no use to keep going on starting threads about the bogus gibsons. gibson will not do any thing about it i will not you wo'nt an the american people won't so whats the point. if you cant tell the dif between a fake and a real mccoy then somethings wrong.

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## mrmando

> There is no use to keep going on starting threads about the bogus gibsons.


That's why we're keeping all the comments about them in THIS thread.



> gibson will not do any thing about it


Remains to be seen, doesn't it?



> i will not


That's a shame.



> you wo'nt


I'll tell sellers and bidders their stuff is fake. 



> an the american people won't so whats the point.


Maybe the Nigerian people will!



> if you cant tell the dif between a fake and a real mccoy then somethings wrong.


The guy who got taken for $650 was a first-time eBayer. He didn't know the difference, but I did. I'm not positive but I suspect he appreciates my telling him he'd been had. He's taking steps with Gibson, eBay and his credit card company to get his money back.

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## vermin307

well MrMando, I for one salute you for taking the actions you did, and I am sure the buyer was very grateful for your info....

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## Jim Broyles

I really wish there were an ignore feature on the Cafe.

The guy from Gibson customer service told me that he forwarded the info to the legal department. I figure if they don't even want people using their headstock shape, I'd imagine they would not care for calling an entire instrument by the name Gibson. I could be wrong, I guess.

f5Loar, does that genuine Rolex have a genuine quartz movement?

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## markishandsome

> There is no use to keep going on starting threads about 
> the bogus gibsons.


If that first time ebayer had visited the cafe first he'd still have his $650. Often these sorts of threads are started by a cafe member considering bidding in an auction they think may be a scam. I'm sure I've seen at least a dozen folks saved from scams by such threads.




> gibson will not do any thing about it i will not you wo'nt an the american people won't so whats the point.


3 out of 4 of these fakes were removed by the sellers after they were contacted by cafe members.

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## f5loar

Raising the flag here will at least save cafe members because we do have some newbies here that dont' know the difference between a prewar A4 made in Kalamazoo and a postwar A4 made in Korea last week. Nothing wrong with learning by this method. I think it's funny in a way that these sellers are doing this especially after they have been told they are fake by dozens of people. It just certifies these sellers are theives using the internet for their prey. An honest seller would pull the ad and start over with the correct information after doing some research on their own (no reason to believe the dozens of people from here it is fake) or at the least add onto the description he has been told it might be a copy/fake. Then if someone pays $650 for a $65 mandolin it's their heartache not the seller.

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## Links

[QUOTE]well MrMando, I for one salute you for taking the actions you did, and I am sure the buyer was very grateful for your info.... 

Ditto -  we just need to find a way to make life miserable for the folks intentionally selling these fakes. Several members of another instrument site routinely bid up fake instruments into the millions of dollars until they are removed.

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## woodwizard

I believe that 99.9% of the cafe members here think all you quys trying to warn people about these fake items are doing a great deed. I also can see that it is working although I know it's hard to get this info to everyone so some will get duped no matter what. I just want to say good job! Maybe in time Gibson and even ebay will get on board. There's so many crooks out there. It's great to see good people trying to help.

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## Bill Snyder

FWIW, I am not sure all of the sellers realize they have listed a fake. The last one - at the pawn shop in Waco - was taken down after they were contacted and they responded by asking what to look for to tell it was fake. I gave them a list of several things and they emailed a thank you and later took the listing down. 
I think some listers may figure "shucks, I have been discovered" and take them down. Some where duped themselves and take the listing down after it has been "proven" to them and yet others just keep the listing up trying to find an unknowing buyer.
I don't *think* there is value in pointing out the fakes, I *know* there is.

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## markishandsome

> I am not sure all of the sellers realize they have listed a fake


I agree. I live next door to a pawn shop and while they do have a few dozen instruments in the back they mostly deal in jewelery and are not mando experts.

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## f5loar

I bet they test diamonds out to see if they are fake or real before they sell them. So they take it in and don't know it's a fake Gibson mandolin. After they have been told they should at least relist it as a copy of a Gibson although these A4s don't really look like any copy of a Gibson I've seen.

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## Bill Snyder

> ... After they have been told they should at least relist it as a copy of a Gibson although these A4s don't really look like any copy of a Gibson I've seen.


At least three of the four talked about here were pulled.

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## Jim Broyles

> Originally Posted by  (f5loar @ Aug. 14 2008, 16:20)
> 
> ... After they have been told they should at least relist it as a copy of a Gibson although these A4s don't really look like any copy of a Gibson I've seen.
> 
> 
> At least three of the four talked about here were pulled.


4 of 5 have been removed. The only one which went to completion was the $650.00 one from last week. I'm fairly sure that Gibson will end up helping that guy get his money back.

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## Jim Broyles

The guy says he's sending it back when he gets it and that he has informed his credit card company. I hope he gets his money back. He has posted a negative feedback .

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## cooper4205

> No, this one is the Johnson fraud, the A4 is the Kona fraud. Has anybody emailed the seller yet. The last one ignored me and took a poor soul for 650 bucks.


the others were Johnson/Kona/Hondo oval holes, and this last one was a Johnson f-hole. I'm sure they're all made at the same factory though, so the brand isn't that important.

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## Jim Broyles

Well, the headstock shapes are a little different and the Konas I've seen have only come in red, so that's why I put it that way.

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## squidbrain

The seller replied to the negative feedback by saying that the mandolin had been inspected by an expert. I wonder just who this expert is. It seems that the seller is never going to let honor stand in his way.

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## Jim Broyles

well, he's obviously a liar. There is no EXPERT on Gibson mandolins, or even on mandolins period who would have verified that instrument to be a Gibson. I mean, I can look at it and say, "Yep. Says Gibson on the headstock. Says Gibson on the label." Does that make it a Gibson? This guy is going down for this, I can feel it.

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## f5loar

what a jerk. I told him three times it was a fake copy.
He even says his "expert" said made in Nashville when the label clearly says "Boseman,MT." I guess that's his story and he is sticking to it. Sounds like an issue for a jury.

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## mrmando

Señores y señoras: numero seis.

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## Joel Spaulding

a-5 with an oval hole - probably found in an attic #next to a Loar signed Les Paul.

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## Jim Broyles

Duly contacted. Let's see what he says.

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## F5GRun

Wow! An A-5 oval hole!! This must be super super rare.

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## Jim Broyles

He says he's sorry and thanks for the help. Let's see if he removes it.

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## Jim Broyles

Removed. The Mandolin Cafe strikes again.

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## f5loar

And the price keeps getting higher on these rare Gibsons.
Last one at $650( and looks like buyer is stuck with that one)and now $1000 starting bid. I like the part about the previous owner took care of this one. What previous owner?
Looks brand new out of the box. Gibson really needs to look into this mess. Someone is mass producing these pieces of junk and using Gibson's good name to sell them.

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## Jim Broyles

The link to this listing was emailed to Gibson. I think the convincing part of my communication with the seller was the link to the Kona for sale right now on eBay. It is very obviously the same mandolin. He knew he couldn't pull it off even if he wanted to, which apparently he did not. Good for him.

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## Jim Broyles

Latest seller says he got it from a customer who pawned it.

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## CES

Gibson should pay you guys a consulting fee...you could become the Gibson Mod Squad...

Keep up the good work!!

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## mrmando

Latest one is in Fla.; previous five were in Texas. Someone buys up a bunch of Konas, adds fake Gibson labels and decals, and goes around the country pawning them for more than they are worth? Why not just get a job?

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## Jim Broyles

I kind of agree with whoever said he thinks these are coming into the country as Gibsons. I would think not having a shop, thus leaving no evidence of counterfeiting, might make it a little easier to go undetected for a while. I hope Gibson thoroughly investigates this.

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## markishandsome

Big Asian factories like saga will sell big lots of un-labeled instruments to retailers who put their own private label on them. I see no evidence of anything more than changing the labels and decals, which can be done in the US just as easily as in Korea. If they were coming from overseas, why are they only showing up in pawn shops? Seems like an odd conclusion to draw. 

As for going "undetected", who exactly is out there trying to detect them? The Texas Rangers?   I doubt the pawnbrokers bothered to report anything to the police, and if they did I don't think a matter of $650 would trigger a door-to-door search for fake gibson decals.

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## phiddlepicker

applying fake Gibson decals is a felony and the Gibson website asks people to report such things. I don't think they appear to take it lightly. Just my opinion though, I've never tried to report anything.

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## f5loar

I'm not up on what a low end Montana Gibson label looks like but I've never seen one that looked like these on a real Gibson. Are they the real deal labels that were blanks and filled in with model and a serial number? 
While $650 may not be a big deal to many, it's more than I got from Bush's stimulus check. Can't wait to get BO's big $1000 give-away next year. Then I could afford that round hole Gibson A5.

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## f5loar

Looks like another strike. This time a Pawn in Florida.
This is the A5 with F holes. Same decal same label:
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/GIBSON-A-5-2007-MANDOLIN-L-K-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ300251649812QQihZ020QQcategoryZ10  179QQssP
ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/GIBSON-....iewItem</a>
Now my thought is could Gibson be importing some cheap mandolins coming into Bozeman and adding the labels to them? Afterall they did it before (remember the Noveau?).
Maybe these really are authorized Gibsons and we don't know it yet. That would explain why Gibson is not stopping the sell of these as we seem to be spinning our wheels at telling these pawn sellers they are not Gibsons.

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## markishandsome

> applying fake Gibson decals is a felony and the Gibson website asks people to report such things.


Yes, I'm sure *IF* Gibson ever finds out who did these fakes they'll sue them. The Gibson corporation, however, is not a law enforcement agency and is not out looking for this person. Expecting the real police to tackle this is a tall order. They'd have to stake out every pawn shop from Key West to West Texas to nail a guy for a few hundreds buck worth of fraud when they could be going after more serious offenders. 




> Maybe these really are authorized Gibsons and we don't know it yet.


Just to clarify - you're joking, right?

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## Links

[QUOTE]Yes, I'm sure IF Gibson ever finds out who did these fakes they'll sue them. #The Gibson corporation, however, is not a law enforcement agency and is not out looking for this person. #Expecting the real police to tackle this is a tall order. #They'd have to stake out every pawn shop from Key West to West Texas to nail a guy for a few hundreds buck worth of fraud when they could be going after more serious offenders. #

If this is indeed a felony, I am not sure that law enforcement officers can ignore it, if reported. #Certainly, they have "priorities", but I don't think they can ignore a complaint regarding a felony altogether. #Pawn shop are supposed to keep pretty detailed records, so the police should be able to track down who sold the instrument to the pawn shop. #I know it is true for gold and silver, and I assume it is required for other items as well #- # maybe not. I would not be surprised if the shops selling these things are not "suspicious" about the authenticity of the mandolins. #They just don't want to know!

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## Jim Broyles

The labels say Gibson, Bozeman Montana, and the serial numbers check for instruments made in Bozeman between 1994 and 1997. I seriously doubt Gibson is making or authorizing bringing these mandolins into the country. Gibson is going to stop the sale of these mandolins if they can.

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## mrmando

> The labels say Gibson, Bozeman Montana, and the serial numbers check for instruments made in Bozeman between 1994 and 1997. I seriously doubt Gibson is making or authorizing bringing these mandolins into the country. Gibson is going to stop the sale of these mandolins if they can.


At least one of the serial numbers checked for an instrument made in Nashville -- which is a problem if the label says Bozeman. 

We can decry what Gibson did to brands like Epiphone and Flatiron, but I doubt they're going to do it to their OWN brand again.

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## mrmando

Seller for #7 is the same as the seller for #6.

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## Jim Broyles

No, one is pmcwest09, the other is pmcwest11 - two different sellers.

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## Jim Broyles

The SN which supposedly checked as Nashville, 90146207, comes up Bozeman:



> Your guitar was made at the
> Bozeman Plant , MA, USA
> January 14th, 1996
> Production Number: 2

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## Jim Broyles

Enter the serial number: 90146207   
Production Year 1996 	Production Date Jan 14




> Manufactured at before 1984 Kalamazoo, after Nashville
> Disclaimer:
> Efforts are made to ensure the accuracy of this page, however, Music Enthusiast cannot guarantee the information displayed here is 100% accurate!
> Please contact the manufacturer to be certain of information pertaining to the manufactured date of your guitar.



This is a general SN search site for Gibson guitars, and it has it different from the other site in this case.

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## Jim Broyles

Adios, numero siete. Removed about 4 hours ago. Maybe the link I gave him to the identical Johnson convinced him.

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## Jim Broyles

> I emailed to ask if he only bought it to expose the counterfeiter. What do you say to someone when you know they overpaid for a fake item?


Sorry for quoting myself. 

I got an email from the buyer thanking me for my help and saying he had the mando appraised - surprise, surprise, it's worth $75.00. Sent the appraisal to PayPal and sent the mando back. Might not have to pay in the end after all. I hope so.

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## f5loar

These things just keep poping up in the FL region. Another pawn shop with a Gibson A5 this time for bigger bucks then before. Has the Gibson logo and Gibson label. What more would a pawn shop owner need to list it as the real deal?
I reported it to ebay. 
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/GIBSON-A-5-MANDOLIN-EXCELLENT-CONDITION-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ320293205265QQihZ011QQcategory
Z33040QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/GIBSON-....iewItem</a>
I am really surprised Gibson is not all over this in legitgation since they are using a Gibson model number and serial number along with Gibson's trademark logo.

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## Jim Broyles

Reported, and seller emailed.

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## Jim Broyles

Numero ocho - eliminado. Gone this morning. Seller emailed "Thanks I had no idea." Hail to the Mandolin Cafe.

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## John Rosett

How about this one? Everything looks right except the peghead shape, which is similar to the fakes listed above. 
http://cgi.ebay.com/Absolutely-Perfe...QQcmdZViewItem

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## mrmando

I have never seen a snakehead EM150. Custom job? Renecked? Gibson hardware on a generic instrument?

The tailpiece is wrong for 1950 ... Gibson didn't go back to the long tailpiece until the early 60s. There isn't a good enough shot of it to tell whether it says "Gibson" or not, nor whether it has the script or the '50s/'60s logo. 

Those knobs were used in the _mid_-50s, but I don't know if they were already in use by 1950. The pickguard, tuners and P-90 look right. Not sure about the bridge. That is a 1950s logo on the headstock, but that's easily faked.

I'm puzzled. I asked the seller what the serial number was, but haven't heard back yet.

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## mrmando

Here, verbatim, is what I got from the seller when I asked about the serial number:



> Model - A
> #77912


Which raises more questions than it answers. If it's a Model A with an SN of 77912 ... well, that's a Loar-period SN (mid-1924) and would mean someone retopped an old birch-backed snakehead with an F-hole top and tricked it out with early 1960s hardware. If the number is A77912 -- then someone tried to fake a 1950s serial number but added a digit. (The last number in the A-series is A36150.) It's possible that the number is A7912 or A7791 and the seller just typed the extra digit. In that case it would be a 1951 instrument.

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## f5loar

One thing for sure..... it's not a 1950 of any model Gibson made however a redo on a Loar era Snakehead with new top is possible with even Gibson doing the re-fab.  I say possible because I've not seen any such conversion done at Gibson.  Could a top of the line luthier do it? Yes, but this one sure looks factory.  As in most handed down through the family stories this one has some holes in it.  The original owner didn't tell the whole story. Because of all these "unknowns" and no way to confirm it was a Gibson factory re-do I don't see the value being much more than the opening bid.  Case is worth couple hundred bucks without the mandolin!

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## John Rosett

Look at the "shoulders" at the neck joint on that mandolin. Gibson wasn't making A model mandolins like that in the 50's. It sure looks like a converted 20's mandolin to me.

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## John Rosett

Compare it to this 1953 EM-150.

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## CES

At least it looks like a real instrument this time... :Grin:

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## mrmando

If I could get a retopped '24 snakehead with a P90 in it for $500, I just might do it!

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## markishandsome

The peghead doesn't look Loar-era to me, but I'm no expert.

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## John Rosett

Let's compare... I love the new image posting.

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## mrmando

Guessing the faceplate on the headstock was replaced. I sent a photo of a '20s label to the seller to try to help resolve the question.

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## Jim Broyles

> Sorry for quoting myself. 
> 
> I got an email from the buyer thanking me for my help and saying he had the mando appraised - surprise, surprise, it's worth $75.00. Sent the appraisal to PayPal and sent the mando back. Might not have to pay in the end after all. I hope so.


The guy won his case and PayPal refunded.  Maybe the counterfeiter will be out of business, although this really only points to the seller on eBay, who was most likely not the original source of the mandolin. So, thanks to the Cafe, we're 8 for 8 in keeping people from being defrauded with these fakes.

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## Mike Bromley

> How about this one? Everything looks right except the peghead shape, which is similar to the fakes listed above. 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Absolutely-Perfe...QQcmdZViewItem


The silkscreened logo is a terrible knock-off.  Not even close.  Ironcally, it's the dot over the 'i' in Gibson that is the first obvious giveaway, then the overall script is all too wrong.

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