# Octaves, Zouks, Citterns, Tenors and Electrics > Four, Five and Eight-String Electrics >  double vs single courses?

## Tavy

Can folks who understand electric mandos better then I do explain the pros and cons of 10/8 vs 5/4 string instruments?

I ask because I'm contemplating building a 10 string hollow body electric, but generally all I see references to on the 'cafe here are the 4/5 string electrics.

For what it's worth, I like my mandolins to sound like mandolins and not small electric guitars  :Wink: 

Thanks!  John.

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## Tom C

Then I'd go with 8(10) string. I have a 4 and never use it as I do not play guitar and did not realize the experience needed to make it sound even like a guitar  :Smile:

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## EdHanrahan

As one who doesn't play electric mando but has played lots of electric guitar, I _suspect_ that any distortion/overdrive (think that smooth, creamy sound - no Cream pun intended) goes south quickly once the overtones (square waves?) from two identical strings start biting into each other.  Thus, the favor by some toward single strings... I think.

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## David Lewis

I prefer single courses, because in my experience, (and many here disagree, and that's fine) the overtones of two strings ringing together  give an unpleasant harsh tone. This may me my fingers, but in any case the courses are for volume. My 80 watt Fender amp has loads of volume.

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## mandroid

Have a CGDA tuned 4 string Modified A50, ala EM 150, I quite like ..

 the 8 string  fender FM61 is ok  just like the resonant tone of the lower pitched  viola range better. 

 more a what kinds of music situations  to you get to participate in ..  (?)



 Tremolo techniques do work better with a double course strung   instrument.

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## JeffD

The big advantage of double courses is the character of tremolo. As David Lewis points out and my experience corroborates, tremolo on an electric can get harsh. And how needed is it as a technique on an emando anyway, when have all the sustain you could ever use.

While I usually tremolo every note longer than an eight note, on emando I don't tremolo at all.


So... if I can't do one of the most iconic mandolinny techniques on the thing - then I give up being mandolinny on the thing.



Because you are right, the four string does sound like a small electric guitar. I have one and I play it like one. Its fun and I love messing with it, but it has only cursory resemblance to mandolin.

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mvlh

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## Bertram Henze

> I _suspect_ that any distortion/overdrive (think that smooth, creamy sound - no Cream pun intended) goes south quickly once the overtones (square waves?) from two identical strings start biting into each other.


Exactly this. There is kind of a short side-by-side comparison here. With any kind of compression, even a single string sounds like two (at least), and double courses would be overkill.

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## Tavy

> Exactly this. There is kind of a short side-by-side comparison here. With any kind of compression, even a single string sounds like two (at least), and double courses would be overkill.


While that was very cool Bertram, it was very far removed from what I had in mind, which was more like a mandolin equivalent to:

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## crisscross

I have several 4 string instruments tuned GDAE. To me the tuning seems more important than the number of strings.
I played easy mandolin duets by Pietro Denis on my mando-tuned soprano ukulele (4 Nylgut strings)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vokGGCIbB1w
on my 4-string Kentucky electric https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVeG1EE-P-c and an Irish jig on my 4-string Ukrainian domra and my mandotuned soprano banjolele. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4g2eJxSlSs
To my ears the mando factor is clearly dominant. I guess, what makes a 4-string sound like an electric guitar is the use of effects and distortion. But you don't have to use them. When I dial in a clean tone with a touch of reverb/delay, to me my 4-string electric still sounds like a mandolin. It's a nice challenge to practice tremolo on single strings.
Tone wise I went for the Kentucky because it has the pickup closer to the neck position giving me a sound that is closer to Attila Zoller's tone than say a mando strat would be.



> Tremolo techniques do work better with a double course strung instrument.


Sure?





> While that was very cool Bertram, it was very far removed from what I had in mind, which was more like a mandolin equivalent to:


Imagine Atilla Zoller playing a 12 string Ricky :Wink:

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## bobby bill

So, tone-wise, you are looking for something more like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bmXS7kpDRg

I can't see getting this sound, or anything similar, with paired strings.

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## crisscross

> I can't see getting this sound, or anything similar, with paired strings.


I guess paired strings really come to life with a bright jingle jangle tone.

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mvlh, 

zedmando

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## Explorer

Since we're focused on electrics in here, I do find it useful to add either a mild chorus effect or (my preference) a slight amount (one cent or less) of detuning effect to single-strung instruments. Even a short delay of less than 5 milliseconds will do for thickening which gives you that double-strung sound.

As stated previously in this topic, when doing anything to the signal beyond just clean amplification, it is often better to have a single-strung instrument.

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## Tavy

Thanks for the thoughts, I can see I need to do some experimenting...

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## mandroid

> While that was very cool Bertram, it was very far removed from what I had in mind, which was more like a mandolin equivalent to:


 what you may want is a longer scale  hollow body Mandola or Octave  with some kind of humbucking pickup .

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## Tavy

OK, here's my experiments so far.... just strapped a humbucker to an 8 string acoustic (FW74 strings) and recorded the humbucker and piezo simultaneously.  It's not a perfect test - the acoustic lacks the build style and sound of an electric, but it gives an idea.  I ran the signal through a software amp and cabinet modellers: I'm not particularly familiar with these, so again the sound is only vaguely in the ball park....

I shot the sheriff riff (humbucker alone):

who shot.mp3

Summertime (humbucker):

summertime.mp3

Galway girl/Celtic thrash along (stereo/blended output - the electronics I have in mind have this capability):

galway girl.mp3

I hear some of the janglyness on the higher notes but not so much lower down.

Let me know what you think.... now I need to go and repeat with only 4 strings on...

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## Bertram Henze

I hardly hear any difference. I'll say you can't really test electric sound on an acoustic instrument, because the strings lose energy to the air (which they are supposed to do on an acoustic instrument, but not on the piece of massive wood an electric instrument has, hence the different sustain). The properties of the acoustic body interact with the strings and you'll always hear traces of that, even with a magnetic pickup. You need the real thing for the real comparison; tweaking a cheap el. guitar should suffice for the test.

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## Daniel Nestlerode

Here's the rule of thumb I use:
If you want the instrument to sound like a mandolin to non-players, then double string courses.
If you don't care, then single strings are fine.

If you want to sound like Atilla Zoller, a guitar player, then single string courses are a must.

I've got a rare, but not terribly sought after, Fender FM-988 (8 strings) sounds like a plugged in mandolin.  I never use distortion on it.  If I go the fuzzy direction, I used a little bit of overdrive.
I've got an Epi mandobird and a JBovier 5 string (looks like a strat, sounds like a Les Paul).  I think the JBovier, or its equivalent would float your boat.
I had a short stint in a pop band playing mostly electric mandolin.  My go-to instrument was the Fender and I used the other two for specific things.  Epi for Santana-esque stuff and the JBovier for clean fat tones.

Best,
Daniel

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## Tavy

I don't think I explained myself very well:

* I'm only interested in building, not buying.
* I want it to sound like a mandolin, not an electric guitar, while still being distinct from an acoustic.
* The Atilla Zoller example (I'm never going to sound like him, and certainly not on a mandolin) was to illustrate an electrified sound that none the less sounds nothing like a typical electric guitar - it retains some essential essence of an archtop, while being distinct from an acoustic (even a plugged in acoustic) sound.  I could equally have linked to a PRS or Godin hollow-body instrument (and yes I know they've both dabbled in mandolins too).

Best, John.

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## crisscross

> The Atilla Zoller example (I'm never going to sound like him, and certainly not on a mandolin) was to illustrate an electrified sound that none the less sounds nothing like a typical electric guitar - it retains some essential essence of an archtop, while being distinct from an acoustic (even a plugged in acoustic) sound.


I guess there are several factors responsible for that special tone:
-An archtop with a magnetic pickup (as opposed to a piezo ceramic)
-Thicker flatwound strings (as opposed to 009 roundwounds)
-Zoller is picking almost over the neck (as opposed to some rockers picking near the bridge)
-The amp setting.

I can imagine, that if a blues rocker played the same guitar strung with roundwoud strings throug a Fender amp with the trebles turned up, the sound would be different.

Jason Anick gets a sound similar to Zoller's tone out of his 5-string hollowbody



But then, he doesn't sound too different on his 4 string solidbody



He too picks near the neck.

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## ricomando

> I don't think I explained myself very well:
> 
> * I'm only interested in building, not buying.
> * I want it to sound like a mandolin, not an electric guitar, while still being distinct from an acoustic.
> * The Atilla Zoller example (I'm never going to sound like him, and certainly not on a mandolin) was to illustrate an electrified sound that none the less sounds nothing like a typical electric guitar - it retains some essential essence of an archtop, while being distinct from an acoustic (even a plugged in acoustic) sound.  I could equally have linked to a PRS or Godin hollow-body instrument (and yes I know they've both dabbled in mandolins too).
> 
> Best, John.


A electric mando  with both piezo and magnetic pick ups would give you lots of tonal options .
 on a solid body you could use bridge saddles that have piezo in them plus what ever assortment of pups you want . an assortment of switches and knobs to dial in the tone . 

a hollow body could have  any arrangement of piezo or microphone pick ups and a floating mag pup attached to the end of the fret board . 

instead of a quarter inch jack you could use a midi jack that plugs into a eq box to hold all the switches and knobs to dial in the tone you wish , thus leaving the body uncluttered by hardware .

I would recommend having both a midi and a quarter inch jack , so you can just travel with just the mando for kitchen jams and plug into a buddy's amp for simplicity

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## mandroid

I have 2_4 string CGDA tuned mandolins  The EM150 is essentially an A50 acoustic
 with the magnetic pickup thru the top ,  and 2 knobs  for T&V

because the bridge sits on a hollow spruce top it had overtones  the one with a  solid body lacks .
 (dry signal)

here is the solid body   http://emando.com/images/builders/Biller_small.jpg

the connector is 8 pin, it  combines the 4 string pickups in the bridge
 and the signal output from the Magnetic pickup. it has a cable connecting it to 

http://www.rmcpickup.com/polydriveii.html 
 with a 1/4" pass thru   separating out the magnetic signal to its Own Jack.

I have a 5 string  it uses a parallel 8 pin and a 1/4"  occupying the oval space 
side by side, where a  fender-stratocaster  angled jack  piece used to be..

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## Sevelos

Just one point:
David Lewis - The double courses are not only for volume. The tremolo sounds much smoother with double courses than with single strings because while the pick touches one of the strings in a course, the other string continues to vibrate.
With tremolo on a single string, the tremolo sound pauses (VERY shortly) each time the pick touches a string.

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robert.najlis

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## David L

> Just one point:
> David Lewis - The double courses are not only for volume. The tremolo sounds much smoother with double courses than with single strings because while the pick touches one of the strings in a course, the other string continues to vibrate.
> With tremolo on a single string, the tremolo sound pauses (VERY shortly) each time the pick touches a string.


The double strings also add a slight chorusing effect, due to slight differences in tuning. They're not just for volume. Take one of each pair off of your mandolin and see what changes the most- volume or tone.

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robert.najlis

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## k0k0peli

> The double strings also add a slight chorusing effect, due to slight differences in tuning. They're not just for volume. Take one of each pair off of your mandolin and see what changes the most- volume or tone.


  I have a Mexican cuatro-menor that looks like a thick teardrop mandolin and has four triple courses tuned like a linear 'ukulele. Those unison triple courses of steel strings give a very shimmering effect rather than noticeably more volume.

I also play a number of instruments with some courses in octaves as well as unisons, the 12-string-guitar effect. Has anyone here tried stringing a mando with the lower courses in octaves? That should give an interesting tone! And I've read of tuning the pairs in minor thirds. Fun fun fun.

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## zedmando

I prefer the double courses--because thats the sound I wanted to play mandolin for.
I did get an electric solidbody one--but still got the double course.
As seen from above--some differ with that--and I'm okay with that.
Not sure which one would sell faster though.

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mvlh

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## Sevelos

By the way, it happened to me quite a few times during performance with a double-course mandolin, that I broke a string and simply continued playing.

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## David Lewis

> Just one point: David Lewis - The double courses are not only for volume. The tremolo sounds much smoother with double courses than with single strings because while the pick touches one of the strings in a course, the other string continues to vibrate. With tremolo on a single string, the tremolo sound pauses (VERY shortly) each time the pick touches a string.


    True enough. For me, it still makes a very harsh sound when you tremolo on an electric. So with volume the only option (if you don't like the tremolo sound), it's less vital. However I do understand that there are those who like the sound. And that is acceptable, fine and ok by me. In that case, you'd be happy with double courses.

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## lenf12

I prefer the sound and feel of double course (8 string) vs. single course in a mandolin. I owned a 5 string mandolin (C to E) but rarely played it because I could just as easily have played my Strat or Tele. I sold that mandolin and bought a much less expensive 8 string and now I hear the sound I'm looking for. BTW I also love the sound of a 12 string Rickenbacker guitar. 

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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