# General Mandolin Topics > Jams, Workshops, Camps, Places To Meet Others >  ASCAP  BMI

## Dennis Russell

Helo: I didnt know where to post this, I figure this is a good place to start. Has anyone ever had a run in with ASCAP and or BMI in the past or present? if so what was the results , I am curious, I had a fellow I know that has a pizza parlor here in this town, had live music in it on friday evening,s,, ASCAP came in and told him Music had to stop or there would be heavy fines, same with a bar across town, owner had to pay $2000 fine and face closure of establishment for alloewing locals t to play their instruments in tavern on weekend, they were having a jam session, Interested in others viewpoints on this Dennis In Arizona

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## mrbook

This comes up every now and then, whenever ASCAP or BMI come out to "enforce" things or flex their muscles. I have dealt with them about background music in my store as well as clubs where I've played. The have more money than most club owners, and they will fight even public domain songs. ASCAP reps have been in the audience to hear the songs we play, and a few clubs I know cut out music or closed down due to their threats.

It is the venue owner's responsibility to pay the fees. Songwriters should be compensated for their hard work and inspiration. Unfortunately, the money will never get to the songwriters whose music we play, but to Michael Jackson or Quincy Jones, or maybe Garth Brooks. We still play at places we suspect aren't paying, but we play while we can.

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## Big Joe

If the venue pays its dues it is not a large amount of money, but the money actually does get back to the writer and publishers. If they pay the dues there is no problem playing music in these establishments but if they don't.....well, that is another story. Even churches pay a fee to be able to use the music for praise and worship or specials, etc. It is not a large amount of money, but it is the right thing to do.

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## ronlane3

Do the Bluegrass festival's have to pay a fee for their events? I'm all for the artists getting paid, just don't know the rules.

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## Bill Van Liere

Back in about 1988 of 89, I recall attending a benefit/funder raiser at Oil City, near Midland, Michigan. Evidently the Bluegrass festival promoter had not complied with ASCAP/BMI and had run into legal troubles. I believe that festival is no more, quite likly because of the difficulties between the promoter and ASCAP/BMI.

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## Katie

Anyone read any Terry Pratchett? #If not, read Soul Music. #Lots of great music jokes and the musicians guild is an amusing representation of ASCAP. #
*^_^*
Katie

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## mrbook

When I talked to an ASCAP rep I found that money was apportioned on the basis of radio airplay. Even with the boom in bluegrass music, it is only a tiny part of what I hear on my radio. 

It is the right thing to do, without question, but the reps can be heavy-handed at times. I'm sure they have to be. I've known establishment owners that wanted to have music and never thought about the matter, and were honestly or naively innocent of the situation. On the other hand, other venue owners think everyone is trying to take THEIR money, so there are times when the reps have to act that way.

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## thistle3585

Out of curiosity, exactly how much money are we talking about? Is it different for different artists?

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## Michael H Geimer

" ... but the money actually does get back to the writer and publishers. "
 - BJ

"Is it different for different artists?"
 - Thistle

I'd say the money gets back to *some* writers and publishers. IMO the system is broken and not to be taken seriously. ACAP/BMI exist primarily to serve commercial songwriters and their publishers. Their needs are placed far above those of the artistically-driven, less profitable, indie songwriters.

I'll try not to vent too much, but here's the deal as I understand things ... the compensation you get as a writer is *very* different depending on how widely published and broadcast you are. Below a certain market share, the songs published by non-famous, non-charted songwriters simply ARE NOT COUNTED. They are averaged out, and rounded out of the equation.

I know for a fact, that songs of mine (administered through BMI - FWIW) have been broadcast over radio, Internet, and TV (albeit in small, meager doses) but the ONLY roylaties I have seen are Mechanical Royalties that are tallied from the physical movement of inventory. I have seen ZERO DOLLARS of Performance Royalties ... basically I don't count because I'm too small a fry, and so ASCAP/BMI can legally ignore me and divie my money up among more successfull artists who are more profitable to handle.

Counting the 'insignificants' was argued to be too burdensome, and so sampling/averaging was OK'd by the courts. It is perfectly legal for them to collect on my performances, and then send the dollars elsewhere.

Add on the stories of legal threats from the field reps, and I couldn't care less about the Rights and Wrongs of Performance Royalties 

FWIW: I see all this as a distict issue from the Piracy and Counterfieting of hard media (CDs, DVDs, LPs, and such) that gets debated a lot these days.

 - Benig ... who is still quite happy to cash whatever meager, paltry checks he receives.

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## Flowerpot

"If the venue pays its dues it is not a large amount of money, but the money actually does get back to the writer and publishers...

Come on now, get serious here. A club pays money to ASCAP or BMI cause a local band played "Cold Virginia Night" and Tim Massey gets money? Because a group plays "The Old Home Place", Mitch Jayne gets his pockets lined?

I'm sure SOMEBODY benefits from the actions of the ASCAP goons, but it sure ain't the folks in the trenches writing and producing songs in the bluegrass, folk, and old-time realm.

I'm just speculating here, but I'd say that although bluegrass/acoustic music has a rather small share of the market for live venues, it has an even smaller piece of the pie in radio airtime. I had always heard, as mrbook reported, that ASCAP fees are distributed per national airplay reports -- guess how much of those fees are going to the people writing bluegrass songs? 

ASCAP and BMI goons bothering small club owners reminds me of the mob protection racketeering of the 20's, only slightly more legal...

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## mrbook

Years ago, two ASCAP reps came into my bookstore in a declining northern industrial city and said that my background music had to be licensed if I was to continue playing it. When they told me the fee, I took my store keys out of my pocket and handed them to the rep. It may be a small amount to Gibson USA, but for many small businesses (not necessarily mine) it is an expense they can't afford. That's not saying writers shouldn't be paid, just that the fees are sometimes imposed in relation to a business owner's ability to pay. In some cases it just causes the music to be turned off.

Getting past their threatening posture, the reps did talk to me for more than an hour. We discussed who gets paid and how payments were determined, which was according to playlists on selected major radio stations. They admitted (at least to me) that the people whose music I play would never see any of my fee money. We did reach a compromise, and since I sell a few CDs along with the books I no longer have a problem.

However, every now and then I see the same reps when our band plays (they don't recognize me in a different context), and I know it's not because they like our music. They are checking our repertoire. They have been known to request a song from a band, then turn around and hit the owner for a violation. In our case, they usually leave before the end of the first set, because nothing we do ever registers with them.

People should be paid for the use of their intellectual property. These organizations are not doing it fairly to everyone involved, but they are here to stay. As a friend says about almost everything, "They are part of the scene, and you have to put up with it." I'm glad the venue owners have to pay and not the performers.

Our group plays a song written by a friend of mine, and we set up an agreement to pay him directly for its use. He makes me take him to lunch instead, but it works out better that way.

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## Jim Gallaher

Just to get some idea of what a local restaurant might have to pay annually, I visited the BMI website where I found a form for calculating fees for a "General License" for "eating and drinking establishments" (:http://www.bmi.com/licensing/forms/index_gl.asp). Here's what I found:

Music type: "Live Music"
Way Live Music is used in establishment: "Multiple Singers/Instrumentalists"
Frequency: One night a week falls under definition of "1 night or less"
Rate/Year/Occupant: $3.55
Occupancy (from local fire code): 50
Annual Fee (Rate x Occupancy): $177.50 (due upon signing contract)

Please feel free to check my reasoning or math on this -- I'm no attorney!

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## Michael H Geimer

So ... it's reasonable to *collect* small sums of money, but unreasonable to *pay out* small sums of money?



I just wish the system was more equitable, perhaps where royalites would be collected ONLY from the big sources used for sampling. In that scenario the small fry's still don't get paid, but their performance venues don't incur any cost either. Not ideal, but IMO better and much more reasonable that what we have today.

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## jim simpson

"People should be paid for the use of their intellectual property." mrbrook

I don't disagree, it's funny to think of say "achy breaky heart" as "intellectual property". 

Jim

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## fredfrank

So, Benignus, if you don't get counted or paid, why do you associate with ASCAP or BMI?

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## Klaus Wutscher

Seems to be interesting, over here in Europe we have a slightly different system. Still, club owners have to pay a fee, but artists are supposed to submit playlists and according to the playlists the money cashed in at the event is divided between the songwriters. If you play some decent venue and play your own stuff (or if you dont but report otherwise nevertheless) this can earn you some decent money.
Of course, if you submit a playlist and the promoter did not pay his fee, they got him by the b..... Won´t help you to get booked again, I guess.

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## mrbook

Don't get me started rating "intellectual property." However, last fall my band (all in our early 50s with one older) played an orientation party at a local college, where one of the freshmen came up and asked if we could play "Achy Breaky Heart." We all looked at each other, smiled, and said, "Sorry, it just wouldn't be right..."

If I had intellectual property to protect (and I might someday) I wouldn't worry as much about live performances as record sales or radio play. I might think differently when the time comes. When we started playing a song written by a friend of mine, I never saw a happier guy than when we surprised him by playing it on stage. He didn't know we had learned it. He has also been writing songs for years, and we were the first people other than him to perform one.

Bill
--------

www.rare-books.com/stringdusters.htm

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## Greenmando

I was just thinking, some restaurant pay a cable company for music and TV. TGIFridays comes to mind. If you are paying a cable service for music would the fees not all ready be paid? Or would it be like buying tires where you pay a federal tax that is taxed by state again - double taxation.

Wouldn't it be funny to list a set of photos of these ASCAP agents publicly. What a message it would make if all live music came to a stop when they enter a pub.

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## sbarnes

i was contacted once by ascap about being a rep..had a friend that was a rep and maybe he recommended me or maybe i contacted them - don't remember that part - it was years ago....
nonetheless, they offered to buy my meals and drinks if i went to various venues and reported back to them....if i took anyone (date, wife, etc.) w/me, they would pay my part of the meals/drinks but not the guest's.....
no pay at all just reimbursement of specified expenses....
needless to say i did not pursue this any further and don't really understand why anyone else would

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## jugband

> same with a bar across town, owner had to pay $2000 fine and face closure of establishment for alloewing locals to play their instruments in tavern on weekend, they were having a jam session, Interested in others viewpoints on this #Dennis In Arizona


My view is that ASCAP does more to KILL live music than any other force in America. These are the same, low-life snots that sued Girl Scouts Of America because 9-year-old girls were singing The Birthday Song to each other at Girl Scout Camp.

Just last year, *I* was hosting a Bluegrass Jam in a BBQ restaurant, every other Tuesday evening.

After about six months, they got a call from ASCAP, and right after that *I* got a call from the restaurant, telling me that the jam was no long welcome there, because the fees ASCAP wanted would wind up costing them all extra money they made from us being there, PLUS a bunch. 

About 15 years ago there were three of us doing solo acts at a local restaurant. 

Apparently they weren't paying their fees, and ASCAP converted three working musicians into three non-working musicians with one 

They are a detriment to live music. They stifle the small venue and therefore the small musician. It's all got to start somewhere, and as I see it, they are eating the seeds instead of planting them.


And as people here have pointed out, paying the fees does not necessarily result in the songwriters getting paid for your performance of their song.

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## jugband

> So, Benignus, if you don't get counted or paid, why do you associate with ASCAP or BMI?


For my own case, I'm a BMI songwriter. 

The only reason is that I had cuts on a couple of songs several years ago, and in order to have that accomplished, a "clearance" had to be done. 

When you do a BMI or ASCAP clearance, you are basically swearing to whichever of them that the song is not plagarised.

Without the clearance, the artist has no chance of distribution deals or major-market airplay. 

If you stole someone's lyrics or melody, and it comes to a lawsuit, everyone who's put a fingerprint on your song, all the way up and down the line, can be included in the suit. 

So... radio stations don't want to get sued for helping you steal royalties, distributors don't, the artist and producer sure don't, etc. etc.

If you do the clearance, ASCAP passes on your promise to all these people that is completely original work. 

If "Stuff" starts sliding downhill, the clearance makes sure that it all winds up in the laps of the publisher and author. 

It can be hard to get airplay on un-cleared songs, or even get CD's replicated, depending on where you go to have it done.

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## John Ritchhart

Personally, I think of live performance as free advertising for the writer and the label. People will hear a song they like, do a search, and buy it. Maybe the labels (Ascap) ought to be paying the establishments that play live music for spreading the word.

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## Michael H Geimer

" So, Benignus, if you don't get counted or paid, why do you associate with ASCAP or BMI? "

Sorry for the late reply. I *do* get paid, but I only receive what are called Mechanical Royalties that are tallied from the movement of physical inventory. As opposed to Performance Royalties which are what the field reps collect from the venues (and which fall victim to the grossly inequitable sample schemes) ... clear as mud?

 - Benig ... who lost $18 dollars in clerical fees to BMI this quarter.

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## Keith Erickson

The first time I've heard of ASCAP/ BMI reps roaming around venues was here at the mandolin cafe. #

I remember my gut re-action was disgust over this "shakedown" scheme. #

Well after thinking about this and putting some serious thought into it; I do believe that these artists should be compensated for their work. #And besides that, it is the law.

...but how do you address the following?

-Background music? #If you are piping in XM radio (you are already paying for this) or you local radio station (public airwaves) into your place of business, what laws have been broken?.

-I know that many of us come to this very board and ask for advice on how to play different tunes. #Are we breaking the law?

I'm just trying to get my arms around this thing and understand it a little better.

Lóóking back in retrospect, I was pretty lucky that none of the the good folks from ASCAP/BMI were on vacation and in that little bar down in Barbados when I played Broon's Bane from Alex Lifeson (Rush guitarist) and Patience from Guns-n-Roses #

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## mrbook

Try this link, which I found on Banjohagout:

http://www.macclesfield-express.co.uk/news....le.html

If it doesn't work, the short version is that a music store in England was told they had to pay fees to cover rights to any music a customer trying out an instrument might play.

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## kyblue

> they are eating the seeds instead of planting them


Totally agree. Sometimes these small venues or jams are the only exposure some songwriters get. There should be a more reasonable method of protecting the music.

We lost one of our best jam spots here last year. The cost of opening one evening a week for us was too great when you added in the fees, I guess. It was primarily a breakfast/lunch business.

Paula

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## EdSherry

As I see it, there are three different issues here. #First, most people who have responded see nothing wrong with ASCAP/BMI collecting money to pay royalties to songwriters and composers, though they are concerned that the way in which ASCAP/BMI allocate the money they collect favors "commercial" songwriters over non-commercial ones, especially those who write bluegrass or other "traditional"-based music. #(Nobody gets paid for songs that really ARE "traditional.") #

It's worth noting that BMI was founded back in the 1940s in part because ASCAP refused to allow writers of certain music styles (notably country and blues) to even join ASCAP.

It is true that the vast majority of the money collected goes to "mainstream" artists, but that's because the vast majority of music generally played at venues is "mainstream" music. #(Of course, for some unknown reason, most mando players don't play "mainstream" music. ;-) #

I agree that certain musical styles are undercompensated by ASCAP and BMI. #That's one reason why some writers join SESAC instead.

Given the costs involved, and the sheer number of songs out there, it would be totally impracticable to expect ASCAP/BMI to try to monitor what is being played at particular venues and to pay artists based on that playlist. #That means that when you play a Jim & Jesse song at your local bar, they probably won't get paid. #But on the other hand, I know songwriters who have gotten significant income from ASCAP/BMI for public performances of their work. #

I obviously can't say "it all evens out," because it doesn't. #Some songwriters never see a dime despite the fact that their music is played in public at places that pay ASCAP/BMI. #But I haven't heard of or seen a viable mechanism that would solve the problem. 

Second, the amount of money collected from small venues can be enough to make the venue unwilling to host live music, especially informal jams. #That is clearly true in some instances. #But IMHO that does not justify the venue in using music as an attraction (whether to patrons or to musicians) without paying the songwriters. #I agree that this penalizes performers, but most performers I know play songs written by others (that Bill Monroe tune is probably BMI).

Third, some posters wonder how the system works for other music sources (e.g., radio played over the store sound system). #As I understand it, ASCAP and BMI collect their money from such sources in other ways than charging the store owner.

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## Mark Normand

About 15 years ago and beyond, I did accounting for a group of radio stations. All of our contracts were paid by a "blanket" license which eliminated submitting playlists and paying from that, which could have been a huge cumbersome task for this desk jockey. Fees for Ascap and BMI were about $2000 each a month, and that was based right off monthly revenues with a simple formula. These were small to medium size market stations. 

Then there was the third licensing company...Sesac, who got the songs nobody else wanted, they got about $62 a month! 

I often used to wonder, how in the heck did they distribute that out properly to artists..???

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