# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  Digital Live Mixers

## almeriastrings

That other thread got me thinking...

How many here are using a digital desk for live sound and how would you rate the pros and cons, based on your personal experience?

I have briefly played with an X-32, the Presonus Studio Live, the QU-16 and the intriguing Line 6 M20-D, but never used one "in battle". I've not had a chance to play with a Mackie or Soundcraft, unfortunately (the latter looks nice, as usual). 

Any problems due to power supply fluctuations? Software hangups? Do you carry an analog backup - just in case (though might not be much point if you are relying on digital snakes, of course!).

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## mandotim1955

No problems with either of my X32 desks so far. I've been using them for 18 months, and I'm convinced. I carry an uninterruptible power supply, but I'm going to stop; the X32 updates itself every 10 seconds or so to an internal backup, so settings are still there when the power comes back. I carry my basic settings on a USB stick as well. There are some really useful tools in the updated firmware, especially the real time analyzer on the EQ section of all channels and outputs. The desk is capable of sounding really good, and I'm experimenting with recording shows via USB to computer for mixing later.

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## oldwave

Been using digital mixers since the early 2000s first with an o1v, then an o1v96, and now with a Allen and Heath QS 16. Never had a failure or problems with power fluctuations. I do use a small soundcraft for small gigs in wineries or if the load in is inconvenient .  My experience has been to know the workflow very well as the complexity can be a problem, though the new QS-16 is more streamlined.
I picked the Allen and Heath for its preamps and I got a killer price in it. I did look at the Behringer and  Soundcraft also.  If the qsc had been out I might have gone for it as the application I was looking for was live.  I have other options for recording.

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## almeriastrings

Interesting. Thanks.

The reason I ask about power fluctuations is because in my own situation I have to deal with bad power on a regular basis. A lot of overhead lines, lightening storms, and brown-outs due to heavy duty A/C kicking in at venues, also lots of refrigerators running in the venues, etc. I have a Furman PL-Plus in the rack which offers good protection against surges, but obviously no use for severe brown outs or total 'off' blips. I suspect I'd need a UPS out here.....I even need one on the TV and sat receiver at home, and I have whole bank of them in the studio and office.

We shall find out soon, anyway, as my friendly distributor yesterday morning offered me a 21-day loan of a Line 6 M20D. Could have had the A&H, but I thought, well, if we are going to get radical here we may as well go the whole hog and get _really_ radical!  :Grin: 

That desk has some attractions, anyway. Really super-compact for the inputs and processing offered (16W X 13.3D X 4.7H), very good iPad control, built in multi-track recording and also looped record/playback soundcheck capability, choice (in recent software release) between visual icon-driven interface or 'traditional' fader view, and enough general ins/outs to suit a typical acoustic outfit (12 mic/line + 4 lines) - so not for huge events, but adequate for most small/medium gigs. Will be interesting to put it though its paces. Should be here Thursday...

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## mandroid

Got a power conditioner in your gear, to cure the power fluctuation situation?

 here's a few..  http://www.sweetwater.com/c960--Power_Conditioners.. Tripp-lite, another..

[IDK whats available in EU type plug and Power , for Spain, etc.]

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## almeriastrings

I have the Furman running already. This one:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PLPLUSC/

It is just a 'conditioner' rather than a UPS, though. No problem getting hold of good UPS units here at all. The mixer does not draw much current. You just need something with a quick changeover in event of a complete 'out' blip.

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## foldedpath

> It is just a 'conditioner' rather than a UPS, though. No problem getting hold of good UPS units here at all. The mixer does not draw much current. You just need something with a quick changeover in event of a complete 'out' blip.


Right, that's something I've thought might be necessary when I finally go digital. Not a big honkin' UPS for extended time, just a small one to keep a digital mixer from rebooting during a temporary brown-out blip. If the venue's AC power drops out longer than that, the rest of the show is going down anyway. 

Looking forward to your comments on that Line6 mixer.

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## mandroid

Curious ..   there a Furman with the round  pin Euro plugs too ?, 

or do You have a bag of converters  or just have a bunch of stuff from over here?



FWIW , when I lived in Eugene , Willy Nelson came to play Mac Court .. 
[UofO before the Nike takeover]

 he had a diesel-electric Generator out on the street ,
 to make sure he had enough reliable power for his  show.

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## almeriastrings

Furman offer their units in a range of voltages and plug configurations in different markets. Over here they are designed for 220-230v, 50Hz and the 'mains' input is terminated in a Euro connector. In the UK, the model is the same, but you use a UK (three-pin flat, fused) wall plug. Of course, a lot of stuff (not power conditioners for obvious reasons) these days use auto-sensing switch mode PSU's, so all you have to do is use the correct wall plug and cable. No more transformers to explode dramatically if you fail to check the operating voltage... the good old days  :Crying:

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## mandroid

I thought the Fused Plugs were  a good thing,   myself , being a visitor  ..

seems  a 1 U device would end up 2U tall just to have room for the plugs on the back.


 and the 220v being a  lot faster boiling the electric tea kettle.   :Coffee:

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## almeriastrings

They would if they used of the back, for sure. Fortunately, they don't. They use standard IEC sockets aka 'Kettle' connectors!

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## Charlieshafer

Well, I haven't used the Mackie enough to really be able to comment on it, but it is small, light, easy, and is very quiet. So, for small shows or the odd place where I need to drag a small mixer along, I'll use it happily. Build quality is fine; not amazing, but fine. It's the quiet quotient that I'm after. The software app for mixing and eq'ing is very easy to use. No complaints. But, when we're doing the big shows, I'll still fall back on the Allen and Heath, mainly because I think I'm a tech chicken at heart.

One interesting thing is that when I'm going over tech riders for various bands, alongside the usual "no Behringer" stipulation, I'm starting to see a number of "no Presonus" additions. I'm curious if the first generation was a little buggy (that's what I heard, anyway) and if those have been resolved. On one hand, you'd think if it's digital, it would all be clear signal, but you do have to throw in a/d and then d/a converters, and that might be what separates the good from the evil.

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## foldedpath

> One interesting thing is that when I'm going over tech riders for various bands, alongside the usual "no Behringer" stipulation, I'm starting to see a number of "no Presonus" additions. I'm curious if the first generation was a little buggy (that's what I heard, anyway) and if those have been resolved. On one hand, you'd think if it's digital, it would all be clear signal, but you do have to throw in a/d and then d/a converters, and that might be what separates the good from the evil.


A/D and D/A converters are so good these days, that I doubt that's the reason. Same thing with mic preamps, although I think there are still some very subtle differences there. 

My guess about the "No Presonus" riders, is that this mixer series was marketed (like the Behringer stuff) at entry-level buyers of digital boards. It was the first relatively inexpensive digital mixer with that feature set, and many engineers running them don't have much experience with the "big boy" mixers with large channel counts, deep FX functions and routing options. In other words, it may be more about excluding the driver behind the wheel than the actual hardware, but that's just a wild guess.

"Hey, I can now use a compressor on every channel! Cool!"... that sort of thing.
 :Wink:

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## almeriastrings

I would think that's likely the case. The  Presonus Studio:Live mixers sound fine to my ears. Many people get on with them very well, and they are installed in some 'serious' venues. They are not the user-friendliest things in the world, however. I have some Presonus stuff in my home studio (HP60 Headphone Amp, Monitor Station and Digimax D8 ADAT extender) and again, it has all performed flawlessly and no cause for any complaints on audio performance, either). Could well be that some bands have had bad experiences where these were used and 'blamed the gear'. They are very popular as church installs...and they often have volunteer, inexperienced sound operators... so maybe that could be a factor. The preamps are not _quite_ as nice as A&H or Soundcraft, but they are certainly not bad and in a live situation I think it would be very hard to differentiate them.

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## Charlieshafer

> The preamps are not _quite_ as nice as A&H or Soundcraft, but they are certainly not bad and in a live situation I think it would be very hard to differentiate them.


And that's a really good point. Electronics in general have progressed to the point where the equipment is rarely, if ever, the problem. All the tech is great, but I usually see the biggest problems with room acoustics, speaker placement, or just sheer volume.  All the room eq'ing you can do is mostly pig lipstick, a bad room is just a bad room. Bad speaker placement is just that.

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## oldwave

Will be interested in hearing about the line 6 digital equipment.  I have good friends who own and operate a professional audio installation business and retail store. I have gotten to play with some of their equipment, though I dont know anyone who has used the line 6 system.  It seemed pricey for their speakers but it is an integrated system.  I decided on the QU-16 mainly for price and the pres as I didn't need the expand-ability of the sound craft or the Behringer.  SO far I am very pleased they just came out with 1.5 software adding more features including DCA's (a more flexible grouping of channels).  Also they just released a more affordable stage box.  The qsc is also interesting, but wont ship till September I hear.  Please let us know what you think of the Line 6 (now owned by Yamaha ? I think)

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## almeriastrings

Well... UPS did their stuff and it arrived on time. I have only had the briefest opportunity so far to check it out, which I deliberately did without opening the manual. This would be be very difficult, nay - impossible - with some digital mixers of my past acquaintance, but in this case, I was up and running and doing a few test mixes in under 15 minutes. The first thing that strikes you is how small it is. Not much bigger than a Soundcraft EXF8 and quite a lot smaller than an MFXI-12 or A&H Zed 12FX. The second is that it is very, very solid feeling. Heavy brushed metal and the buttons feel very positive. The screen is about the same size as an iPad mini or typical 7" tablet. 

It has an extremely large range of basic, pre-set 'starting points' for numerous instruments... including mandolin (both DI'd and with mic):



There's banjo, fiddle, string bass, resonator guitar and many, many others. Each of these has its own 'context sensitive' set of FX and EQ's. By that, I mean when you pull up 'Tweak' you get a cross-hair chart for EQ that offers fast access to adjustments that reflect the kind of terminology you hear players of that instrument typical speak in to the desk... 'reduce boom', 'more scoop' 'air', 'deeper' and so on.... different instruments offer different options. Press the 'Deep Tweak' button, however, and now you get something akin to a plugin on your DAW - with real-time spectrum analysis running behind the graph points.



Also.. the illuminated knobs below the screen change to reflect the frequency bands they affect....

A similar pattern is see with compression:



Again with setting input trim and HP filter:



You can very rapidly change an instrument... just touch, then select a new preset, and load - you can customize all of these presets too and have frequently used ones as favourites. All of the usual digital desk options such as saving scenes, etc., are there too (though I have not explored that yet). If you do not like the icon-driven screen, you can change it for a more traditional fader view - but I must say, while I at first thought the icons might be rather cheesy, they made identifying a channel virtually idiot-proof, and are far easier to read than scribble strips. Want to change reverb on the fiddle? Tap it.. enter Tweak...select and configure from a range of reverbs. That's it. There's even a 'Return to channel' icon when you're done - and it too shows your fiddle. This makes navigating menus very fast, and errors much less likely. You can't easily mistake your banjo channel for your string bass... because every setting presents its options in context, with the correct channel icon.

I've only spent a couple of hours with it so far - and have a lot more delving to do, but so far, I am hugely impressed with the work flow and intuitive nature of the desk. It does not look much like a regular mixer - but under that simple looking panel there is evidently a lot of depth. Not a mechanical fader in sight.... and I did not even need to open the manual at any point.. a first for me, certainly, with a digital desk.

I should be able to get more time with it over the weekend and give it a real test though various speaker systems and with various mics and DI's.Thumbs up so far - especially for including a neat F-5 icon for mandolin.

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## Charlieshafer

Ooooh, shiny bright knobs and things.. now I'm drooling. I really am curious to her what you say, though. It's time to get with the 21st century, and eventually, setting up an 80 pound analogue A&H will wear out it's welcome, especially with all this does.

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## almeriastrings

Tried a few more things, and it is very clear that the 'Tweak' and 'Deep Tweak' areas are very much based around what you'd get on a good DAW plugin or on a control surface. The row of knobs functions very much like a control surface, in fact. This will feel very familiar to anyone used to working in a modern studio. Speaking of recording... this can record _all_ active inputs (mics, DI's, lines) 'dry' exactly like a direct out would, _plus_ the main mix simultaneously, to an SDHC card. This is very useful indeed. These are 24-bit WAV files and helpfully carry the file-name labels of the channels as named on the desk... so, you could have "Bills's Mando.Wav" or " "Kennys Fiddle.Wav" - no more track 1, track 2, etc., and then trying to figure out what's what when you import them to your DAW. Having the 12 mics + 4 line inputs + main mix recorded like this could save a lot of extra hassle (and cables) and make recording gigs very much easier. Early days, but from what I can tell so far, the preamps are nice and quiet, with plenty of headroom and sound absolutely fine. No more need to drag a Mac, PC or separate multi-tracker to the gig and hook it up. This does it all. Very neatly.

One other neat thing. The inputs are all 'auto sensing', so it 'knows' when you have connected a mic, a line, or a monitor. The display shows an active input, what it is (plug in a mic and a mic icon appears) and assigning it is very fast and straightforward. If you create a 'stage presence' first, a backing vocalist, for example, a little 'patchpay' appears and even shows you what to plug in, and where! May be a little too much 'autopilot' for some, but under pressure, at a gig, it is easy to mix up inputs and cables, especially in poor lighting - and if this helps to reduce that possibility, it could save a lot of frustration.

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## dcoventry

Gamble EX-56 or go home!! Analog to the Bone!!

http://www.gearsource.com/catalog/listing/70439

And Meyer MSL-3's if you have your wallet out. 

http://www.meyersound.com/products/l...tinued/msl-3a/

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## almeriastrings

> Gamble EX-56 or go home!! Analog to the Bone!!
> 
> http://www.gearsource.com/catalog/listing/70439


It would cost more than that because:

a) I'd need a new vehicle to carry it in
b) The medical bills for my back...

I have a 28 channel A&H, which is very nice, but it weighs a ton in its flight case, and I rarely need that many channels these days anyway...I'm looking to downsize - not 'supersize me'!  :Laughing:

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## almeriastrings

Exploration continues... had it hooked up to mains and to monitors.

Some very neat features here. Plug in a monitor and it 'appears' on the virtual stage instantly, highlighted for instant adjustment. Very easy and logical workflow to adjust settings, levels, mix, FX, etc. You have 4 monitor/aux outputs.

FX: Extremely nice reverbs. Hall, Room, Plate.. lots of options and you can set just about any parameter easily. Actually far easier than on the Soundcraft/A&H analog mixers I'm used to, where it can be very difficult to see what exactly has been tweaked. Here, you just tap the FX icon and everything is obvious at a glance. You can tweak early reflections, decay, EQ and other parameters depending on which reverb is in use. The reverbs all sound as good as most people would ever need from a live desk. Certainly as good as the Lexicons in the Soundcraft. They are likely not as good as the Universal Audio DSP reverbs, but I'd be amazed if anyone could hear any difference in a live performance situation. Bottom line: more than good enough for just about anything.

Preamps: Hearing them through the mains confirms they are very clean, neutral, and quiet with plenty of gain. No complaints at all. They sound very nice indeed. 

Big Red (and Green) Buttons: A nice touch and very handy. Big Red 'Mute All' button on front panel mutes everything - mics, lines, speakers and monitors. Big Green button mutes mics only and you can then selectively unmute (to keep one live for announcements, etc). Main issue might be avoiding the temptation to hit the Big Red one with some acts I can think of!  :Laughing: 

Input assignments and routing: Tap the virtual input panel and it expands. Assigned inputs are highlighted in yellow. If you want to move your vocal mic from Ch. 1 to Ch. 5, you just 'pick it up and drag'. Voila! Vocal mic is now on Ch. 5 and all your settings, tweaks, go with it. +48v is available in two banks, individually switchable, 6 on each. It is very easy to see at a glance which mic/DI is assigned to which artist, and to see exactly which input they are on. It is particularly easy in very low lighting with desk, so much so, you could probably use it in almost total darkness. The 'hardware' knobs/buttons are back-illuminated, for example. 

The only features I have not yet tested thoroughly are the feedback detection performance, the recording facility, and iPad connectivity (because I am waiting on a compatible wif-fi dongle to arrive). For me, it is unfortunate there is no Android version of the control app - because I use a Galaxy Tab. My wife has an iPad, however, so I guess I will be borrowing that..hopefully!

The only limitation as such I can see so far is if you regularly need more than 12 mics + 4 line inputs, or more than 4 monitor/aux mixes. For occasional use, it is easy enough to just plug in a sub-mixer, but certainly if you need, say, 16 mic inputs or more routinely then this would not work for you. For myself, these days, 12+4 is more than adequate for 90% of what I do and I could plug one of the Soundcrafts in for those few times I need more. 

One possible problem area could be using it in very bright light (outdoors). These screens can be an issue... and high temperatures can also cause problems. I think some shade and possibly a fan directed at it might be a wise precaution. 

Here it is shown next to our Soundcraft MFXi12. It is substantially more compact, while offering more monitor mixes and a vast array of extra FX, all of which would require a separate rack with the MFXi12.

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Charlieshafer

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## almeriastrings

Feedback detection test:

This was interesting. Normally, with an analog desk, in difficult venues I'd run the mains through a Driverack and the monitors through Feedback Ferrets. These both work very well. They do, however, work globally, and affect the signal from every mic and input - whether needed or not. I also have 3X Sabine FBX 'Solo' units that can be used as channel inserts, where you only need feedback control on a few channels. Works - but involves quite a lot of extra setup and trailing cables, PSU's etc.

The M20d is radically different. First, there are 12 notch filters for each input. These are assigned to each of the 12 main mic/line channel independently, so work very much as if you had a_ separate feedback killer on every input_ each choosing _different_ problem frequencies to null out. You can turn them on or off individually too. So, on a DI'd guitar you probably don't need it - but on vocal mic, you might need it. No problem.  Just turn it on where needed, and off where not. There are two algorithms available, 'universal' and 'vocal' with the latter being noticeably more aggressive. For miking instruments, you'd use the 
'universal' setting (which also seems to work fine on vocals, incidentally). This is very interesting, as it approximates having a large rack full of separate feedback killers..... or 12 Sabine FBX Solo SL-820 units running (at over $300 each). In fact, it betters it, because the SL820's have 8 filters each, and this desk has 12. Pretty impressive.

How does it work? Very well. Highlight the icon/mic you wish to work with. Then go into deep tweak mode.. select input... Turn it on (if not already on - it is preconfigured as on in some preset profiles) and choose the mode. Now raise the gain, and as FB starts to occur you will see a series of thin red bands appear against a freq chart on screen, showing exactly where the notches are being applied... feedback is grabbed quickly, with no audible artifacts or introduced background noise/distortion. Very transparent. Repeat for any channel where you need it.  I shall be able to test it later next week on some real gigs, but it certainly seems pretty good so far. 

I might have some anti-feedback units for sale soon...  :Laughing: 

PS: Someone asked me if it has channel groups. Yes, it does. Very easy to assign a number of channels to a group and control the levels simultaneously from one 'fader', backing vocals, drums, or whatever.

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Charlieshafer

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## almeriastrings

Baptism of fire, last night! First gig with the M20D. Everything planned nicely, mics assigned, DI's organized, stage set, local network and iPad connectivity running, sound checks done (very easy with the 20 sec record/playback facility) and then, just as we got going two whole bands turn up to "give us a surprise" and "can we do a couple of guest slots, please?"  :Disbelief:  

Two totally different bands, in addition, with _completely_ different sounds and styles, needing major stage changes. One with mandolin, banjo, percussion and guitar (all miked), the other with an 'electrified' modern sound with electric bass, DI'd acoustic with FX pedal board, harmonica, two female vocalists, another acoustic guitar and 'electric' mandolin (mag pickup).  None of which I was expecting or prepared for.... good job I keep a few spare DI boxes and extra cables in the utility belt...

It was an interesting experience working with a completely new system with that going on. The icon driven 'stage' and the very clear virtual input panel helped a lot. Just insert a 1/4" jack (balanced or unbalanced) into one of the 4 line inputs and a DI box automatically appears on stage.... plug in an extra mic, and you see one appear instantly on the virtual stage. Above each one is a clear label indicating the input socket it is assigned to. Alternatively, pick a DI'd electric bass from the  preset 'library', drag to the stage, and you have a very nice set of EQ's designed for bass ready to go. If you want to change the input - pop up the 'board' on screen, click one socket and drag to another. Done. With all presets intact, 'carried over' with the cable. Very neat indeed.

What stuck me most was how easy it was to keep track of things. No guessing (and hoping) you had the right cable or fader. It was so clear it was hard to make a mistake. The icon-driven interface may be different, but under pressure, it pays off. Incredibly clear and logical. Once the guests had finished, back to us again, with instant recall of all our mic assignments, EQ's, reverbs and so-on. Just like we had after the sound-check. All it took was to re-load 'our' setup and scene. On an analog board with limited channels you often end up 'messing' with own setup to accommodate other musicians needs - but not with this. You can re-use a channel temporarily, knowing you can get it back to _exactly_ where you wanted in a couple of seconds. This is excellent, and experiencing this under pressure, as last night, I have been 'converted' to the benefits of digital boards.

I was able to 'tweak' everything easily from right at the back of the venue via iPad. The virtual 'rotary' controls were rather fiddly, so I switched mainly to 'fader view' for this. Very clear and responsive. Full control of inputs, FX sends and outputs. The X/Y 'pad' in 'Quick Tweak' mode was also very good for quick EQ adjustments.  All-in-all the M20D performed beautifully, and sounded great. I was running it through a pair of Maui II arrays... which worked superbly and easily handled everything thrown at them with ease (including electric bass, bohdran, etc.). It makes for a super-compact setup that can be transported in an average station wagon sized vehicle, rather than requiring a truck. No heavy, bulky snakes, no extra racks (despite having multiple EQ, comp, reverb options and feedback suppressors on all inputs) ...  setup and breakdown time was greatly reduced too. It gets another outing this Saturday, this time in an outdoor 'amphitheater' venue with around 450 expected - no 'unexpected' guests allowed at that one, though, so hopefully not quite as frantic as last night.

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Beanzy, 

Charlieshafer, 

dang, 

foldedpath

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## oldwave

Very nice review. DSP and virtual mixers are the way of the future since high quality AD and DAs are cheap, programmable gate arrays and superb effects and dynamics control are all virtualized in software.  The auto paradigm is pretty cool and I would like to see one of these up close.  I got into digital mixers in the late 90's while working as a recording engineer fro the Rock and Roll Hall of fame (the first O1v I owned at 48K was used as a drum sub mixer for the Allman Brothers  band feeding a DA 88 digital recorder through a TDIF interface while an analog 24 input desk fed three other decks.) My how far it has come with my Allen and Heath feeding 22 channels to a portable hard drive. The line 6 mixer and the new QSc (as well as the Mackie are of interest to me as shedding weight as I traverse my 62nd year is important , hence a previous thread on the HK Audio.  Even the QU 16 in a road case is heaver than I like to carry, but still do like faders, but this visual concept is interesting.  How quick are the virtual faders fro adjustments?  My iPad app is pretty good for the Qu-16, but if I can I grab faders.  I have used my RME Fireface UFX with a duo as the only mixer on a gig, but required to use a computer, though the iPad can now control it in class compliant mode, OK if you want an extremely high quality recording, but a bit cumbersome.  I used to use a wireless usb printer controller to hack the O1v96 remote control but again it required a computer, but did work well, moving faders was magic at first to my friends!  I will be interested in hearing more about the stability and operational success and challenges as you go forward.  Thanks for sharing and as usual your posts are insightful, educational, and demonstrate a high level of technical and mandolin centric knowledge.  Hope to get to France sometime to visit.  

Thanks again

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## almeriastrings

:Smile: 

I would say the virtual faders on the iPad are very responsive and accurate. No problems at all. 

The virtual rotary encoders, however, I found rather "fussy" and could not always get an instant "lock" on them when trying to turn them. Very similar to what you find with some plugins in your DAW, when trying to 'rotate' via mouse.... I would not say this was a huge issue, though, because just about everything you can do with the virtual rotary 'knobs' you can do with either the faders, or the X-Y pad, or the graphical EQ screen. Could also be I am not 100% used to it yet or that they will improve this with a future update..

Apparently (I have not tried it yet) but you can even use multiple iPads with this thing...so, you could have one showing faders, the other operating the multi-track recorder functions..and even another one adjusting input trims or FX sends......again rather like multiple monitor views in the studio.

One more area I have yet to explore is the output presets. You have a whole choice of customizable settings for the output bus - including some for 'boomy room', 'shrill room', 'lounge music', 'punchy PA' (increased perceived loudness) and so on, all involving various combinations of EQ, multi-band compressors, limiters, and such... each one fully adjustable on all parameters which you can then save with your own names to suit specific venues "Room From Hell Fix No.1", for example, or to suit different speaker configurations. 

Fellow pickers and audio geeks always welcome, by the way. Just make sure you head for Spain, and not France  :Wink:  If you think of the old Clint Eastwood "Fistful of Dollars" movies, that's where we are.

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## Charlieshafer

> Fellow pickers and audio geeks always welcome, by the way. Just make sure you head for Spain, and not France  If you think of the old Clint Eastwood "Fistful of Dollars" movies, that's where we are.


Do the Celtic players over there still get Breton and Galicia mixed up? There should be a map..

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## mandowilli

I have recently been trained on the use of a Soundcraft SI Expression 3 and must say that it is very intuitive and sounds great.  Routing to Aux mixes is a breeze and using an ipad controller you can stand right in front of the stage as you set monitor mixes.

The best feature is the ability to save your mix to a USB drive.  Many of the bands at this venue are repeat performers so all you have to do is load in the previous performance and plug everything in.  Presto!

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## almeriastrings

> The best feature is the ability to save your mix to a USB drive.  Many of the bands at this venue are repeat performers so all you have to do is load in the previous performance and plug everything in.  Presto!


Yes.. this is very, very useful and a huge time saver. The M20D does the same thing. There are two levels of 'save', first you can save 'Setups'. These are snapshots of the physical connections and assignments for each band, for example: 3 DI's, an acoustic guitar via mic, lead vocal, 2 X backing vocals, etc. All the chosen FX routings, stage monitor assignments and such are saved with in this mode. The second layer is 'Scene Save', and here you get all of your detailed mix settings saved as a sub-category under the 'Setup' save. You can have unlimited numbers of each. They can be saved to an SDHC card, to a USB drive, or to a hard drive. Normally you would use the SDHC card as the USB port is likely to be in use to connect the wireless network adapter.

I did some range tests yesterday, and had no problems outdoors with connectivity as far away as 120 feet. I took this photo from the same position I was able to connect with the iPad during the soundchecks:



The M20D was behind the white wall, on the right. I had the USB wireless adapter in a little extender base, stuck on top of the wall..this is quite a strange venue... literally out in the desert, in the middle of nowhere! Somewhat surreal...

I was able to give the 'auto trim' function a good test. Plug in a mic or DI. Get the artist to play at performance level. Go to 'deep tweak' and select input. Hit 'Auto Trim'. It now takes a sample over about 15 seconds and automatically sets the input gain. You can see what it is doing, and can adjust manually - though I found it to be more than accurate and reliable enough. The other gain function is 'Trim Tracking' where it constantly monitors the incoming levels during performance and if they threaten to clip, cuts it back a few dB - here's the clever bit - it simultaneously raises the channel gain to compensate, so perceived volume remains the same. It definitely works. Very much like having a good engineer on the desk, even if you are running your own sound.

I used the M20D with a single tower system at this venue. I now have two of them, but the coverage from one was more than adequate so I left it in the vehicle. Other performers had a pair of RCF 310A's and an 'own brand' music retailer pair of powered 12" units in use. 



Sound was very good, and volume/clarity absolutely fine with a seated and standing audience just over 300 in total. The ability to wander around the site during soundchecks while looping a 20 second sample, adjusting dynamics or EQ is an eye-opener. You finally hear yourself exactly like the audience will. No more guesswork.

If they do get Breton and Galicia mixed up, it may have something to do with the 'Sidra Asturiana' or Asturian ciders they drink up there! Powerful stuff.

----------

Charlieshafer

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## foldedpath

> Do the Celtic players over there still get Breton and Galicia mixed up? There should be a map..


Over here on the other side of the planet in the USA Pacific Northwest, we have many fans of Cape Breton (isolated Scottish heritage) music and many of those players make it out here for workshops. It can be confusing when we try to introduce a Breton (French) tune in local sessions. 

You get us non-native speakers trying to adopt a bad French accent to distinguish between them, like "No, it's the other Breton, you know... the _Brehtohn_ tunes!"

P.S. thanks Almeriastrings for the ongoing review of this gear. Much appreciated, from someone who hasn't made the leap yet.

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## almeriastrings

You know, what really stands out to me (in addition to all the raw technical stuff) is the simple fact that one person can now pack a 700W (RMS) 'stereo' tri-amped complete PA system, with a 20-channel mixer offering 4 truly excellent sounding FX busses, plus feedback suppression, multiple EQ's, limiters, compressors and even de-essers and vocal doublers on _every channel_ and then some more on the outputs, with full remote control, and do all this with barely _any_ interconnects and cables trailing everywhere. What's more, you can pack the entire thing up in 20-30 minutes and load it into the back of a 'regular' vehicle - you don't need a great truck anymore.  In fact, the setting the mic stands and few cables that there are is getting to be the most time-consuming and bulky part of the whole rig......I am old enough to remember the 'good old days' (before Class D amps and digital audio) when to get remotely close to the capabilities of all the new stuff would have needed a very large vehicle, a whole crew, multiple racks full of FX, trolley's to haul the massive amps and speakers, and several hours of setup and breakdown time..... and I don't remember it sounding this good, either. The reduced weight alone is just incredible.

----------

dang

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## mandotim1955

Amen to the size/weight comments. We are a band for the discerning older gentleman (i.e. we would prefer more roadies, not more groupies...) and we carry a full 3500 watt FoH rig (including subs), plus four active monitors, a digital desk and all stands and cables plus instruments in the back of a Mitsubishi 4x4. Digital desks and lightweight powered speakers make all this possible, and the manufacturers deserve enormous credit for making this happen. The thing that I love about digital is the flexibility; last week we were booked for a performance by an agency, and I got a call a couple of days before the gig from the client's son, asking if his band could do 'a set'. In the old days, I'd probably have said no, due to the work involved in swapping the bands over on the day. This time? I asked him about his band, had a listen to them on line, and set up the desk so we could switch at the touch of a button. He specified the inputs, effects, monitor mixes and some basic eq settings, and it took me half an hour one evening to punch all this into the desk. Not the easiest band to mix; a Celtic/Brazilian fusion outfit, with accordion, twin fiddles, bass, four vocals and a vast array of exotic percussion, but the show was ridiculously easy to manage. I've just emailed the recording of the gig (two track into a USB stick) to him as an extra surprise. I love this century....

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## Toni Schula

Hi Almeriastrings,


thanks for the great review and sharing your experience. When I first looked at some NAMM videos about the M20D I thought this was just a toy, but it appears to be a really very innovative product.




> The virtual rotary encoders, however, I found rather "fussy" ....


I always wondered why audio SW like plug-ins or mixer remote controls try to imitate HW rotary knobs. These work best, when you can feel the physical knob rotating between your fingers. Mouse and touch screens have different haptics and need different controls.




> One more area I have yet to explore is the output presets. You have a whole choice of customizable settings for the output bus - including some for 'boomy room', 'shrill room', 'lounge music', 'punchy PA' (increased perceived loudness) and so on, all involving various combinations of EQ, multi-band compressors, limiters, and such... each one fully adjustable on all parameters which you can then save with your own names to suit specific venues "Room From Hell Fix No.1", for example, or to suit different speaker configurations.


Are these output presets also processed within the M20D and useable with any 3rd party speaker or is this rather a remote control for processing capabilities in digitally linked Line6 speakers?


best regards
Bauzl

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## almeriastrings

> Are these output presets also processed within the M20D and useable with any 3rd party speaker or is this rather a remote control for processing capabilities in digitally linked Line6 speakers?


Hi Bauzi,

They are internal on the M20D and work with any and all speakers. You don't need Line 6 units, and in fact, I am not using those either. I am now using a Pair of Maui II's mainly, with some Fishman SA220's and a pair of QSC K10's available as required. 

The main thing Line 6 brand speakers give you is a kind of 'auto configuration' - they even know if they are being used vertically, or on the sides - and they have their own, additional presets and small mixing facility built in - though these are really somewhat superfluous if you have an M20D.  They are good speakers, but very expensive and I prefer the existing speakers we use, anyway. For own own gigs I use the Maui's, for anywhere a 'standard' system is needed, I use the QSC K10's (which to my ears sound somewhat better than the Line 6 equivalent).  These all work brilliantly with the M20D.

I also thought it was some kind of geeky toy aimed at inexperienced users when I first encountered reports of it - but I have entirely changed my mind about that. It is very well made. Very solid. To the same standard as say, a Mac or our UA Apollo interface.. similar "look and feel". The onboard functionality and processing is all first class too. I had a 21 day return arrangement on it, where I could try it, test it, and swap it for something else if I was not 100% satisfied (I was eying up the A&H QU-16). That won't be necessary, because it's staying....

Here's another clever thing not mentioned in the manual. Load up a test .WAV of pink noise onto a USB stick or to the SDHC card. Plug a measurement mic into an unprocessed, 'flat' mic channel. Now launch the output buss window by clicking on the main VU meter. Select the PEQ with background real time analyzer. Play the pink noise and you get an immediate visual spectrum display of the incoming channel with the frequency graph adjustment points laid right over it, so you can pull down unwanted peaks, for example. Very clear and appears plenty accurate. That is the kind of depth it has 'under the hood'. I'm sure there's more to discover yet! I get the feeling I have only scraped the surface so far.

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## oldwave

Now that I figured out that Spain and France are different countries, I can rest easy. Lol.  There was a reason Yamaha bought Line6 I suspect.  Interesting to have the Smaart like (analyzing software) functionality built in. The QU-16 has Frequency analyzer but not the dual function (maybe a future upgrade as they are quite aggressive in updates).   Auto trim sounds very cool, its built in to some degree in the RME Fireface UFX but not real time.  I used to use Audio Technica auto mixers for lectures but they were too crude for music.   That function is quite appealing.   I will be interested in the new QSC mixers as the price point is less than half for 8 channels and 800.00 cheaper for the 16 channel version.  I think Ill download the Line6 manual and have a look.   I do need 16 channels once in a while.  Do you think the new Fender Line array is a repackaged Maui ?  I used the Bose for a while in an old band the price was too high for what you get.   Do far my favorite micro system is the HK Lucas Nano, but its limitations are   apparent when you get to the size gigs you just mentioned above.  Thanks for the great insite on the Line6.  Light weight. I like.

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## almeriastrings

> Do you think the new Fender Line array is a repackaged Maui ?  .


No question at all. Definitely. Identical.

They are 'upgrading' the current (German) version and appear to have licensed the 'old model' to Fender. The 'upgrade' is not relevant to more 'serious' users, however - it merely consists of adding an MP3 input and a direct mic input.... the 'old' one just has regular line inputs.

You can run 16 mics into the M20D, incidentally. The 4 X line/jack (balanced) sockets do have enough gain - especially for medium-high output mics, but obviously these inputs have no +48v, so fine for dynamics, self-powered electrets or standard condensers provided you insert a separate phantom PSU in the line. Beyond that, you'd need a sub-mixer. I will probably hang on to my little Soundcraft EFX-8 for that job.

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## oldwave

Upon further investigation, the Fender is identical to the Maui 11, the Maui 28 uses 8 inch woofers, is that what you are using ?

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## almeriastrings

I am using two Maui 11's. For what we do they are excellent. The 28's (and newer 44's) would be more appropriate if seriously bass-heavy content at higher levels was envisaged, however. I would say, based on some side by side tests I did, that the M11 is close to the Bose L1 in overall performance. It has certainly has considerably more low end capability than the Bose L1 Compact. Though the 6.5" LF drivers (there are two of them per unit) sound small on paper, they are in quite a good, very solid, folded horn type housing and kick out quite convincing levels. We have never turned them up much beyond about 25% on the LF 'balance' control. We had electric bass through them last week and the bass player was amazed that such a solid and convincing sound was appearing from such compact cabinets.  Certainly, though, if a lot of low-end at very high levels was required, they would struggle. I'd be looking at the M28's there, possibly even with an extra powered sub. I heard a 28 with two subs, and while it would be overkill for our own performance use, it would be a better choice for DJ's and that kind of thing.

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## almeriastrings

Interesting discovery that may well apply to other digital mixers with extensive and flexible EQ options. 

On analog desks it has often proved easier and more convenient to run piezo transducers through specialized preamps with their own EQ and notch filtering. This usually involves use of quite expensive DI's such as the Baggs Para DI, Venue, Tone Bone, etc. On the Stagescape, the EQ (with variable HPF and anti-feedback notch filtering) is so effective that I found I was running the above with all controls nulled... pretty much negating their main advantage. They do still offer the ultra-high impedance inputs required, however. 

I then tried a Radial Stagebug SB-4, a very simple 48v phantom powered box, that offers a very good 5 Meg input impedance, which is an excellent match to most piezo transducers.  This is a very clean sounding unit, built like a tank. Result: just as effective as any of the 'special' acoustic DI's, but at 1/2 to 1/4 the cost per channel (provided you have access to a mixer with the required degree of EQ sophistication). It is a cost and convenience saving worth factoring in if considering 'going digital'. I was also able to get a very nice sound from the ridiculously cheap Behringer AD121 acoustic DI. You can turn the pseudo 'modelling' off, and just use it as a 'straight' 1 Meg input impedance DI. 

Note that the Radial is not a substitute for full 'modelling'  systems like the Fishman Aura's or for boxes that offer mic blending or unusual phantom powering options (Headway's, for example), but if you just need some very high grade piezo compatible inputs, it seems to work just as well, if not better, than the above-named in conjunction with a suitable digital desk.

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## mandotim1955

I was using my Headway EDB1 preamp as a means of shaping the tone; I now use an Audio Technica System 10 digital wireless setup, with no preamp, and my mandolin tone is better. All EQ options are dealt with by the digital desk, a Behringer X32 Compact. I use a variety of DI boxes for other members of the band, some expensive, some very cheap. I can get a good sound from any of them, providing their basic noise level is good enough for live work (I wouldn't use the Behringer Di120 for studio work, but it's a great little box for stage use!) The X32 has a Real Time Analyser on every channel now (including main outputs and monitor mixes), and this makes EQ very easy to do. The very good parametric EQ on every channel means that notching out problem frequencies is a breeze as well. I was one of the 'no Behringer' camp for a long time, but the X32 and the shift of attitude by the company has made me reconsider.

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## almeriastrings

Interesting you found a similar thing.

Incidentally, for a really excellent sounding, straightforward, very fair priced high impedance input DI (in Europe, anyway), the Orchid Electronics Micro DI is  priced almost the same as a 'B' product, but is hand-built using pro-grade components. I can _highly_ recommend these. No US distributor, however. You have to order direct from John at Orchid Electronics.

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mandotim1955

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## mandotim1955

Uh-oh...Almeria's post just cost me money again. I've just bought some DI boxes I wasn't aware I needed..... :Wink:

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## almeriastrings

:Laughing: 

They _are_ very good, though. Excellent review in Sound on Sound a couple of years back.

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## mandotim1955

I have a couple of bits of Orchid kit. Pro quality through and through. I fancied the Micro DI as a mandolin/guitar case emergency tool. The small size was the selling point, quite apart from the great sound.

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## gw16

I've used one of the first generation Studio Live 24 channel desks for a few years now.  Gig with it all over the place and in all kinds of environments and it's only gliched on me once or twice.  Just a question of powering and down and up again to restore it to full strength.  Even survived some eejit dumping a drink on it one scary night. Overall a great console for the money in my opinion.

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## TonyP

Sorry for the stupid question. 

I've been avoiding this thread because of my lack of funds and IQ are such as to inhibit me from taking this plunge  :Smile:  But I was talking to a local camp owner and he was talking about that they have different music camps and concerts. He was thinking about taking the plunge for sound equipment but didn't know what to buy. I mentioned that there is a huge jump in the tech because of being able to interface with a iPad to be able to mix and not have to fiddle with the stuff on stage. His response was, doesn't it have to have access to the net? I wasn't sure. Then I saw Almeria's gig in the boonies....so I'm guessing that it's some kind of direct link?

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## almeriastrings

Correct. The mixer sets up its own private network (not connected to the Internet) and your iPad logs onto that using a secure connection (to prevent anyone in the audience with an iPad from also joining in all the mixing fun). The Stagescape has a USB port that directly accepts a Wi-Fi dongle or wireless router. No other computer required. Some mixers may require a computer to be connected, however (I believe the Presonus Studio Live mixers need this). Something to check when considering different systems.

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## TonyP

It will be interesting to see if this comes down as on Sweetwater it lists for $2700 and they have it marked down to like $1500. Still out of my reach, but it makes you wonder if it's going come down more or has it caught on enough that once they get some market share going it might creep back up. I appreciate you going through some of the outrageous depth this thing offers as manual's don't always seem to make sense. There's also a bunch that us acoustic musicians would want to know about without having to dig through all the other stuff. 

One of the reviews I saw the guy complained the auto level didn't function like he'd hoped. But do you think that might have been because it was a rock band with huge level swings? Seemed like it worked for you. Or maybe it was and early model and they have tweeked it?

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## foldedpath

TonyP, if you're starting to consider one of the smaller digital mixers, have you seen the new QSC Touchmix series? Here's the Sweetwater page on the two models:

http://www.sweetwater.com/c265--Digi...Dk2NjIxNCJdfX0

Not out yet, coming in "limited quantities" in September. With the QSC name behind it, I'm expecting them to be a reliable and well thought-out mixer (maybe one reason the release dates have slipped). These also do the iPad remote thing, as well as built-in multitrack recording like the Line6 mixer. 

Since you're not ready to buy right now (I'm not either, but looking), you might want to keep an eye on these QSC models. Also, Almeriastrings' report on the Line6 mixer makes it sound _much_ more attractive than I thought it would be, and I would also strongly favor the Allen & Heath Qu-16 if I had a need for that many inputs. Lots of good choices out there now, or coming soon. 

The Mackie compact digital mixers have an attractive price as an entry-level mixer, and I know people have had success with them. But I don't like the over-reliance on iPad control with that design. Having an iPad as an accessory for out in the crowd mixing is nice. But I think the mixer should work in standalone mode with all features, without relying so much on the iPad like the Mackie design. That looks like a short path to obsolescence if future iPads won't work with it.

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## TonyP

It would seem that mixers have made a huge jump, and that's a good thing. Part of why I was not really poking my head in was I also daunted by the lack of traditional things I'm used to. It's really nice to see that someone like me might have a chance to even work one without getting a phd in the manual first. There's also the fact that do to a lot of different factors I'm not gigging much. So it's more idle curiosity than actual need. But that's how it always starts with EAS. So are you going to do the review on the Touchmix when it comes out foldedpath????

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## foldedpath

> There's also the fact that do to a lot of different factors I'm not gigging much. So it's more idle curiosity than actual need. But that's how it always starts with EAS. So are you going to do the review on the Touchmix when it comes out foldedpath????


I don't know... I'm in a similar situation this year with fewer gigs than last year, partly due to the fact that my guitarist partner in our duo got married earlier this year. That has had a predictable influence on our rehearsal and gig schedule. 
 :Wink: 

I'm curious about how the smaller 4 mic channel Touchmix might replace the Zed-10FX I use for minimalist wedding gigs, or when we need a "2nd Unit" setup with a PA in two different locations (ceremony area plus reception/dinner area). But I can't justify it, unless the gig schedule picks up. Maybe next year.

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## almeriastrings

> One of the reviews I saw the guy complained the auto level didn't function like he'd hoped. But do you think that might have been because it was a rock band with huge level swings? Seemed like it worked for you. Or maybe it was and early model and they have tweeked it?


I must say I have (to date) found the auto-trim very accurate and reliable. The 'Trim Tracking' too. No problems. I will be giving it a real workout on Aug 16 when I am running the sound for an African drummer. That should give me a chance to test the noise gates, too.  None of these things are 100% 'Auto Pilot' and obviously have limits - but so far, very good and all works  just as I would expect. There have been software updates too, which have addressed some minor issues and added new features (fader mode, for example). 

Those QSC desks look very interesting. Rather similar looking to the Stagescape, too, in overall design. It does make for a lot of capability in a very compact form-factor. I see initially, it does not have some things the M20D has: 12-channel feedback suppression, for example, and fewer options on the main outs - but as all this is done in DSP theoretically, it may come later as updates appear.  That has been the case with the Behringer X-32. It also requires an external USB 3.0 hard drive  (7,200 RPM) to record 20 tracks - while the M20D does this to an SDHC card. It looks very good though, and having worked now with one of the 'touchscreen' driven devices, once you adapt to them, they are a perfectly viable alternative to physical knobs and faders in most situations.  I think a lot of us who were raised on "great big, very expensive heavy things covered in knobs and faders" have some initial reluctance to embrace this new approach (I certainly did), but it has proved something of a revelation..... I would not want to go back. The sheer sound quality and technical capability packed into such a compact unit, that you can easily carry with one hand (even in a flight case), is incredible. I am definitely a convert!  :Laughing:

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## TonyP

All the pro's are converts too. But not every desk makes sense to everybody. It is still a new thing and it's going to change a lot more I'm sure. Just an overview of the QSC, the price looks less than the M20D, but good eye Al, no feedback buster.

 I am totally wary of this smaller just to be smaller trend that's with everything. It makes every unit very proprietary in their approach and that means you can't just walk up and grab a knob, or tell somebody, grab that knob and turn it down! Granted you can't always do that now, but you could say the red slider or something like that for the mains. 

It seems like the QSC is trying to keep it simple with the dedicated trims, but it sure would be nice if the #'s and the knobs were lighted so you can see them easily in dim light. 

Ok, my interest is piqued, I'm going to keep an eye on digital mixers and track where this goes.

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## almeriastrings

One of the nice things on the M20D is that absolutely everything is back lit and illuminated.  The mode buttons on the left, the 'mute' buttons on the right, and all the encoders. The latter change color according to function. Another big 'confusion buster' is the auto-sensing XLR's and jacks. This is something I had not encountered before, but it really makes a big difference in setting things up.  Just plug in your XLR, and immediately it shows, highlighted on screen in the virtual patch-bay. If you want to re-assign it to another channel, just tough, hold, and drag. No need to physically unplug things and then plug them in again somewhere else.  Super neat. Very clever. It is the sort of feature you never knew you needed, until you tried it. Used it all in near total darkness a few times now, and it is great in dingy environments. No struggling to read scribble strips and no uncertainty as to what is muted or what FX are active. That was always an issue on our little Soundcraft FX8 (not so much on the MFXi12). I'll probably hang onto the MFXi12 as backup, or for use as a sub-mixer. Subjectively, I think the M20D easily sounds as good as the Soundcrafts - and they always sounded more than good enough.

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## TonyP

ok, now you're killin' me......

I have to admit I'd only scanned the previous posts but you've got me so impressed went back and looked through. Not only does it do all the cool stuff, but also is a recorder. Now I'm totally blown away. A $1500 price tag doesn't seem that outrageous.   :Disbelief: 

I guess it's all about how it holds up now, and support. 

I didn't see where you've done any recording with it yet, so I look fwd to that. I'm also interested to see what if anything happens with your interface with the iPad and whether they are going to support any of the other pads as I've been instructed by my best half we need a pad. I can see where it would get used especially on the road. But I'm also seeing that there's some folks bailing on the iPad to go to the Samsung pad pro. All these choices, tech and the volume of online reviews and swamp an old wanna be nerd.

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## foldedpath

> I have to admit I'd only scanned the previous posts but you've got me so impressed went back and looked through. Not only does it do all the cool stuff, but also is a recorder. Now I'm totally blown away. A $1500 price tag doesn't seem that outrageous.


FYI, The new QSC mixers will record too. I haven't looked at the details of the Line6 or QSC recording features, but the usual setup is one mono WAV file per mic input (stereo or dual mono for stereo line inputs), and the recording is usually pre-EQ, pre-FX, and pre-Fader. In other words, a raw capture of the signal right after the input trim. A raw, unprocessed capture is what you'd normally want if you're going to do a mixdown later on in a computer. Depending on the design, it might also record the stereo mix on the main outputs, which is what you'd want if you're burning CD's or USB sticks for sale at the gig.

One other thing about a recording feature with these mixers: Don't underestimate how much time it will take, to assemble and edit tracks if you do a multi-track recording of each gig. Be careful about promising recordings to anyone in the band, or a band you're running sound for, because it's a _lot_ of work, unless you're just doing a simple 2-channel capture of the main stereo buss during the gig.




> I guess it's all about how it holds up now, and support.


Definitely, although so far I haven't heard anything negative about the Line6 mixer, and the QSC isn't out yet. Support from both Line6/Yamaha and QSC should be good, based on past experience with those product lines.




> I'm also interested to see what if anything happens with your interface with the iPad and whether they are going to support any of the other pads as I've been instructed by my best half we need a pad. I can see where it would get used especially on the road. But I'm also seeing that there's some folks bailing on the iPad to go to the Samsung pad pro. All these choices, tech and the volume of online reviews and swamp an old wanna be nerd.


I wouldn't advise getting anything but an iPad, if you're planning on using it with one of these digital mixers. Support for anything else is either nonexistent or shaky at best, and it's liable to remain that way, as long as Apple dominates the touch panel market. Get the full size iPad if you can, since that's easier to use. Especially if, like me, your near-range vision isn't what it used to be. 

If you're on a budget, you can get a refurbished iPad2 from Apple that should work fine with these mixers. They're running about $300 now for the WiFi/non-cellular version. That's what I'm using (bought an 1Pad2 back when it was the new thing). I don't have a digital mixer yet, but I use it as a control interface for my RME UFX recording interface when it's in standalone mode. I'm not a fan of Apple in general, but I have to admit that iPads rock.

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## almeriastrings

I aim to test the recording capabilities sometime over the next week or two. Yes, it records a separate file for each input and a processed stereo 'mix' simultaneously, up to 20 channels. They are in 24bit uncompressed WAV format. The only 'oddity' is that they are sampled at 48kHz, so you may need to convert on import to your DAW if you usually work in 44.1

The options are:

Record inputs only
Record inputs and main mix
Record main mix only

It will also 'stream' the above to a Mac or PC if required.

The only real limitation is it does not do overdubbing. It really is aimed at the 'live show' capture function.

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## Charlieshafer

As everyone seems to agree, there's a lot of non-standardization at this point. Folded's point about the ipad has validity, but the other way of looking at is that the software for an individual manufacturer's controllers is easy to update with a simple download. Compatibility wouldn't be an ipad issue, just a software update issue. As far as the connectors go, there's a converter for everything. By the time something's completely outdated, you'd probably be looking at a whole new series of mixers that are a giant step ahead of what's out there now. But then, that's a problem with digital _anything_; there's no predictability of what's coming. 

I do worry about the interface with all sorts of different control panels on these. Right now, my 15-year old daughter can easily run an analogue board with me wandering around telling her which way to go with what volume or eq setting for what channel. From what it sounds like, the advocates of different digital boards all seem to like the interfaces that mimic analogue controls, as that's what we're all used to. 

I'm thinking in 5 years, the controller will be a little remote control you hold in your hand, point at the various musicians, and just adjust that channel. Point it at another, and it adjusts his or her channel. All wi-fi. The board itself will just be some little box that sits on the stage with the inputs going into it, and that's that. That seems to be the way that things are headed with a remote ipad controller, so my bet is that they'll all head in that direction if they're not already there. 

Like Apple or not, that's the ballgame for the forseable future.

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## TonyP

> I'm thinking in 5 years, the controller will be a little remote control you hold in your hand, point at the various musicians, and just adjust that channel. Point it at another, and it adjusts his or her channel. All wi-fi.


NOOOOOooooooooo........(as I think about trying to control the stupid tv, roku, dvd player with these glitchy remotes!) geez, I hope not. But you are right Charles, anything could happen. But there's the idea, and then there's the application/reality. So far the one - I see with the M20D is not being about to do any over dubs. I mean, how sweet would that be, you only have to learn one interface to do sound and record. But I know Apple seems to own everything, but they also have the penchant for selling you the base item, then socking it to you for all the add ons. 

I wonder if they will re think this no over dub, wouldn't it just be software?

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## almeriastrings

I agree it would be nice.... and I am sure the basics could be done in the software, however, from some discussions I've had with them they have said they specifically avoided trying to be everything to everyone, and preferred to concentrate 100% on getting the live mixer functions right. Trying to achieve an ultra-low latency audio interface or overdub function at the same time would have involved changes elsewhere that would compromise other areas. 20 simultaneous track recording is quite a handful...That said... there is a lot of DSP in this thing and you never know what future software updates might bring. As it stands, you can import the files to say, Auria, on an iPad or send them to your usual main DAW where you can make use of your existing interface for any overdubs. Right now, the existing inbuilt recording functions already exceed that of say, the A&H ICE 16, but without all the extra cables and without the $1K additional price tag. 

http://www.allen-heath.com/ahproducts/ice-16/

It is not so long ago that "hard disk recorders" seemed a miracle in their own right, and cost a fortune. We now have 20 track recording to a minuscule SDHC card that costs $20. Yes, you have to wonder what is coming next! Look what has happened to film cameras...

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## Charlieshafer

I can only say for myself that recording the live performances are not a priority, so any feature pertaining to that is simply unnecessary. For those who want a great live recording to play back, it'll need processing anyway, as there's no such thing as a perfect feed coming out of a live mixer. We all mess with the eq or levels to make it sound right for the room or space, but that signal into a computer will be totally unlistenable if not re-balanced. In that case, anything more than just sticking a thumb drive into the board is kind of overkill for most of us.

And, if the recording off the board is ready-to-go, I face one of two issues: if it's one of our shows I'm mixing for a touring band, recording shows is strictly off-limits, and a real no-no. The idea that a bootleg could get out is a venue-killer. If it's just us that's playing and even if we're really "on," I have no interest in listening to us, and to be brutally honest, I can't imagine anyone wanting to "re-experience the magic" of us...

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## almeriastrings

I feel the recording is a very useful addition, but is not the primary focus of the desk. I can see how some folks would find it important - others less so. Since it's there, and does not take anything away - nice to have "for free", as it were. 

One way it would be useful to me is for soundchecks. There is an inbuilt 20 second 'quick record', where you grab 20 seconds of all active sources and it loops the playback while you tweak the EQ and such via Ipad from the audience position. Already used that and it was very revealing and helpful indeed. A full recording of a few minutes length is even better, however, and allows you to hear the breaks and everything in context. This could be quite a time saver as you could have extended 'samples' from artists you work with regularly, and do quite a significant percentage of the soundcheck and setup without needing anyone on stage at all. Provided your mics and general setup are the same each time, apart from room adjustments and getting any feedback issues resolved, that would get you in the ballpark really fast.

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## TonyP

I'm trying to envisage how that would work when you can save your settings from a previous gig. In my case the only artists I work with are my bands. Is it pretty quick and easy to record and then play back? The idea of being able to tweek like you said, recording the sound check, then tweeking it again from the audience would be a dream come true. Like you said though, 20 sec. is too short, it doesn't give enough time to run through the different breaks and voices that a couple of songs would. You also said it records everything dry, but it plays back through all the settings for fx etc. right? I'm getting a better pic of why they did the record setup like they did. You said your in communication with the manufacturer? that's interesting.

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## mandotim1955

I've recorded our 'soundcheck track' via the X32 into Reaper software on a laptop. The recording was done when we all pronounced ourselves happy with a rough 2-track playback of the song. We then played the song again, and recorded in full 'dry' DAW mode, using 12 tracks. If I'm short of time, or the boys are arriving late, I can simply play the dry soundcheck file through the X32 (which has the FX settings, levels, EQ and dynamics etc. already dialled in), and go out front with the iPad and listen/tweak. I can then EQ for the room on the mains and any 'problem' channels, job done.

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## almeriastrings

That's exactly how it works. With the M20D you record any required inputs to the SDHC card. These are dry recordings. Exactly the same as a 'direct out' on an analog mixer. You then play them back, but this time, they go through the EQ/FX chains for the respective channels. You have a soundcheck - but with an infinitely patient, fully co-operative band  :Wink: 

Not something you'd necessarily need or use all the time, but it is there when you do. If you work regularly with different artists, you can store all their I/O settings, FX settings and other preferences in the Setup/Scene files, _plus_ a 'virtual sound check'. 

I had a few tech questions and they were answered very promptly by specialists at Line 6. They seem to know their stuff.

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## TonyP

It sounds almost too good to be true. My problem with a single person check is they have a tendency to sandbag and be timid. And then as soon as we a playing for real, well, I might have well not bothered. I think I'd have a tendency to maybe somehow push record about half way through the first set and go with that sample. How hard is it to switch into record?

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## mandroid

seen bands where one player is running a wireless transmitter  (electric guitar, in a local case)

and walks out in front  while they are playing to get the FOH sound double check.

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## Charlieshafer

That happens a lot with us. Usually after I get it pretty darn close, various members of the band will walk out while others are playing and give a listen, and then take turns. If there's any adjustment at all, it's usually just a slight adjustment to an eq, maybe drop the mids on someone's fiddle or something small. Usually they're just doing that to sound official, but every now and then it makes a little sense. Until the audience fills in, the show starts, and it ends up needing to be out pack where it was. 

Almeria, I'm curious about the presets. Do you end up tweaking them when you get to different rooms, and just use it as a base check?

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## pit lenz

> It sounds almost too good to be true.


In most cases it IS too good to be true.
Virtual Soundcheck (in most situations except a large open air gig) leaves two essential factors out of the equation:

-mixes are not right in small venues:
Any instrument with a robust level (drums, guitar amps, banjos or similar) will be heard acoustically when played by a musician but not during virtual check. Their acoustic presence might require complete different levels and tonal balance in the mix, since PA levels and frequency balance have to complement their own sound and volume. 
Listen to a two track mixer recording from a small venue: you'll likely find that loud drums and amps are underrepresented in the mix or sound rather thin, since maybe only a small amount of presence was neccessary to add to the original acoustic stage sound during the gig. In this case Virtual soundcheck works best on soft or electronic instruments.

- Feedback won't happen in V.S. 
Since you feed the PA and monitors from a virtual source and mics are off in that situation, the interaction between speakers an mics is eliminated during V.S.
This makes it hard to dial in very soft signal sources and be feedback safe later on.

Healthy signal sources in an open air situation (think Linkin Park) will really benefit from Virtual Soundcheck, in any other case you have to be careful about your mix judgements.

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## almeriastrings

> -mixes are not right in small venues:
> Any instrument with a robust level (drums, guitar amps, banjos or similar) will be heard acoustically when played by a musician but not during virtual check. Their acoustic presence might require complete different levels and tonal balance in the mix, since PA levels and frequency balance have to complement their own sound and volume.


I am a bit confused by this. The 'virtual check' recording takes place exactly like a regular sound check, in the same venue. So, the same conditions apply. No difference. Any spill will be recorded, the 'acoustic presence' is still there. The room acoustics are identical. It is absolutely no different than having the musicians present. The only 'serious' drawbacks that I can really point to are (as mentioned above) the tendency of some players to play at lower levels during sound checks than during the 'excitement' of a live show, and also the fact that the audience (mobile sound absorbers) are not there which affects the room - but that's just the same as any sound check, and you have to take all that into account. The 'trim tracking' feature on the M20D is also useful in dealing with musicians who increase levels as the night goes on. It cuts input trim to avoid clipping and adjusts the channel gain to keep the level to where it was set earlier. You can, of course, over-ride this if you want to.




> Listen to a two track mixer recording from a small venue: you'll likely find that loud drums and amps are underrepresented in the mix or sound rather thin, since maybe only a small amount of presence was neccessary to add to the original acoustic stage sound during the gig. In this case Virtual soundcheck works best on soft or electronic instruments.


Not my finding at all. We are not dealing with a two track mix, but essentially a 'dry' input of the actual microphones. Let's say you have a fiddle + guitar on stage. Position the mics as usual - do a basic setup, then hit 'quick record' (which on the M20D you can do by pushing one button (on the desk or via iPad) or by floor switch. Musicians leave stage and come down to the mixer or out in the hall. Now, it sounds *exactly* like they were still there. _Absolutely zero audible difference._  You can now tweak the EQ, reverb, or gain... individually, for each mic. You can save those settings. Later, they go on to perform and it sounds exactly like it did during the sound check, and _exactly_ like the recording.  Obviously you may need to change some things as you go, just as on an analog desk, mainly due to audience damping effects, but that is just the same as it has always been.




> - Feedback won't happen in V.S. 
> Since you feed the PA and monitors from a virtual source and mics are off in that situation, the interaction between speakers an mics is eliminated during V.S.
> This makes it hard to dial in very soft signal sources and be feedback safe later on.


Not at all.  If there are feedback issues these are picked up during the initial setup stage of the virtual soundcheck, when you have the musicians on stage. You get that resolved then. Also, many of these desks incorporate dynamic and adaptive anti-feedback systems that will kick in if a problem arises at any time. Most of the time, though, you simply do your anti-feedback checks and adjustments before you record the 'virtual' soundcheck.  Remember... you use a separate 'virtual sound check' for each venue - so everything is tested and dialed in specific to that artist, and that venue. You can save all these and recall them any time. No-one is suggesting they are a total solution to every possible problem, but what they do (very well) is reduce a lot of repetition and save a lot of setup time. They also allow the performer to hear themselves from the audience position to 'tweak', balance or EQ. *If you are running your own sound, this is quite simply fantastic.* You can hear yourself like never before. In my opinion, this is a huge step forward. 




> Healthy signal sources in an open air situation (think Linkin Park) will really benefit from Virtual Soundcheck, in any other case you have to be careful about your mix judgements.


Again, I do not really understand where the problem is. What is the difference between recording say, 3 minutes of the band playing, then getting the band off-stage and then using a very high quality multi-track playback to continue refining the mix? You have mentioned feedback, that is already dealt with. What other difference is there? I certainly cannot hear any.

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## almeriastrings

> Almeria, I'm curious about the presets. Do you end up tweaking them when you get to different rooms, and just use it as a base check?


As you go along, you refine them to specific venues and then save them. You can give them easy to remember names,  and then re-load them the next time you have that act, in that venue. So, over time, theoretically, they should keep on getting better. I believe most of the digital desks out there offer this kind of facility. This is one of the big advantages, the ability to 'fine tune' settings for specific artists and specific venues, then recall them with 100% accuracy at the push of a button (or touchscreen). It massively reduces the repetition involved, and you don't have to remember how you had the EQ on the bass in 'Joe's Bar', because the desk remembers it for you. Anytime you want to change it, or adjust it, of course, you can, but it gets you in the ballpark, really, really quickly.

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## adkpiper

We* carry a Mackie DL1608 and it has been an absolute godsend so far. We're typically playing gigs where the sound is usually run by kind volunteers who may or not have read/received/heard of our tech rider and where the house board frequently doesn't have enough inputs to match the number of mics we're using. So the bar has been set pretty low. Often we would get to the gig and end up doing sound ourselves, with their gear, because the person who'd been assigned to do sound that month hadn't been taught how to set up and run the board. 

Within that context, the DL1608 has been fabulous. Peter and I can both run iPads concurrently and get things dialed in, mix from out in the hall and/or on-stage, and fix things quickly from the stage if something goes wonky during the show. We had a problem during one gig with "knob twiddlers", the kind of audience members who think it's their right to come and adjust the board without asking. That's always an issue if you have those people around, but with the Mackie board the only knobs to twiddle are gain. Insta-feedback. But that's not a problem with the board's design! For us, the benefits vastly outweigh any disadvantages.

Haven't had any issues with power conditioning, software hiccups, etc., knock on wood! We don't carry a backup. 

It's phenomenal to be able to carry a board that can handle our 13 XLR inputs with preamps, plus a dance caller on an extra mic, with room for other guests on stage. To be able to fit it into a backpack is mind-blowing.



*We are Frost and Fire. Celtic-inspired contra dance and songs, based in Vermont. www.frostandfireband.com
To give you a sense of what we need in a board:
Hollis (me): 
 - wooden flute = clip-on XLR + phantom
 - guitar = DI -> XLR
 - mandolin = clip-on XLR + phantom
 - bagpipes + whistle + voice = stand-mounted SM57 = XLR

Peter:
 - fiddle = clip-on XLR
 - low whistle + voice = stand-mounted SM57 = XLR

Viveka:
 - fiddle = clip-on XLR
 - djembe + bodhran = stand-mounted SM57 = XLR

Aaron:
 - piano = 1 or 2 TRS
 - concertina = 2 clip-on XLR + phantom
 - banjo = 1 clip-on XLR + phantom
 - feet = stand-mounted SM57 = XLR
 - voice = stand-mounted SM57 = XLR
 - (sometimes Aaron's nyckelharpa shows up, which is another XLR)

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## foldedpath

> Again, I do not really understand where the problem is. What is the difference between recording say, 3 minutes of the band playing, then getting the band off-stage and then using a very high quality multi-track playback to continue refining the mix?


I think the key part of Pit's post was this:




> -mixes are not right in small venues:
> Any instrument with a robust level


Take a small venue like a corner stage in a bar with a low ceiling. Add one Classic Rock cover band with a drummer who slams, and a lead guitar player with his amp dialed to 11 because that's the only way he gets _his tone_, man!

A recording of just the input to your mics and line inputs won't help in that situation, because the goal will be to bring up the vocals and any other quieter elements to match the drums and guitar, which don't really need the PA anyway. It's the classic case of having the club owner walk over to your FOH mix location, and he asks you to turn the band down because it's too loud; customers are complaining. You point to the master fader, pull it all the way down, and the band is just as loud. And you say "Talk to the guitar player." 
 :Smile: 

An intrinsically quieter group like a Bluegrass, "Celtic" or Acoustic Folk band will be different, obviously, and so will mixing just about anything including loud Rock bands outdoors. There may also be intermediate situations where the band isn't louder than the PA reinforcement, but it's contributing some acoustic sound from amps and drums that has to be considered part of the mix. Again, this is mostly an indoor thing for rooms with lousy acoustics, but some of these digital mixers will inevitably be used in situations like that.

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## TonyP

That's exactly my take on it too FP. 

This is why I find the whole thing of new products so hard to decipher because we truly are from a parallel universe. I would HATE to be somebody like Line 6 or Mackie etc. trying to figure out what exactly is the need. What we need is not something that's geared for rockers in an small club. And because of Al's mandocentric/acousticentric review I get so much more an insight into this gear that there's no way I'm going to get from the promo stuff or from the reviews. 99.99999% of the time the reviews on products are not people in my universe. So their ding on something might be my ecstasy. So I'm always having to read between the lines to see if we're talking apples to apples, or apples to oranges. 

Add to this we are definitely in the minority in our needs and approach and it blows me away that you can get any manufacturer to care, much less pay attention.

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## Charlieshafer

Well, there are some things that are hard to solve no matter whether it's digital or analogue. No doubt acoustic mixes are a lot more delicate. Our bane is when a band is all acoustic save for one electric guitar or bass with an amplifier. We solved that issue by taking the amp off the stage, sticking it in the hallway in the back, and running their cord and a microphone out to it. Very few whine about the arrangement, most get why we do it that way. It's the only way we can balance the mix and keep the volume at decent levels. 

Our main issue is that the first few rows are so close to the musicians, they really don't need any reinforcement, so the speakers for the house are suspended overhead up by the ceiling and we mix for the center of the room. We can get crystal clear, noise-free sound that way. As I need to set the board up for every show, the real draw for me is the light weight, and the move-around-the room during the show i-pad control.

I do suppose I'll end up recording a few bootlegs for my own enjoyment, though...

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## almeriastrings

No single system or combination of stuff is universally suitable for everyone, in all circumstances.... we have discussed that before (!). Requirements vary, and it is not just the technical specs, either, but size, weight, ease of operation.... you have to target in on what is important in _your_  specific situation. For example, size and weight matter more to me now they they did 25 years ago! I like the new Class-D amps and I like the fact that I can have multiple channels of all kinds of high quality FX available that one time, I would have had to haul a huge, heavy rack and a mess of cables to use. The racks (and an equally large A&H desk I no longer need or use) are now in my garage before heading off to Ebay. The system I am currently using for our own gigs is powerful enough for our needs, sounds great, but is also small enough I can load and unload without injuring myself, and can carry it in the back of my SUV - I don't need a truck anymore. I can also set up and break down in about 1/4 the time it used to take.

These days, that is just as important as any other feature as far as I'm concerned  :Laughing: 

It also does stuff I could only dream of with the older rigs....

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mandotim1955

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## Toni Schula

Was at my favourite local music store recently cause they currently discounted the MAUI-11 (529 , the same price as at the favourite web shop in Germany). So I own one now.

I also wanted to use the occasion to have a look and maybe my hands on the M20-D. Just to be sure before putting it to my wish list, you know.

The sales person told me that they don't have it in the exhibition and won't have it in future. He called it a musician's mixer and anybody having experience with any live mixer should rather buy a Qu-16. Of course he is a sales person, the QU16 currently is almost 500 bucks more expensive. I had some hands on the QU16, and for sure I liked it, but I would have loved to see the M20-D in real live.

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## almeriastrings

Be interested to hear how you get on with the Maui. I like ours a lot. There are some good deals at the moment as they are bringing in the new model (with basic mixer built in). 

Yes, I think unfortunately the rather 'radical' concepts in the M20D have resulted in some people dismissing it before really understanding it. There seems to be a view that if it does not have lots of physical faders it must be a "toy". However, there is a different way of doing things, as the M20D, Mackie DL 1608 and QSC Touchmix demonstrate. The QU 16 is a nice mixer - and was actually the one I was considering before I gave the M20D a chance. I stayed with the M20D in the end because the QU 18 is very much larger and heavier, has a very small touchscreen, and does not have some of the features I was looking for and use regularly. In particular, independent channels of feedback suppression and recording to flash media. I also felt the wi-fi connectivity was not as a well implemented as on the M20D.  Still, a nice mixer if you don't mind the extra bulk.

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## oldwave

One correction, the QU-16 multi tracks to an external hard drive , flash is not recommended but I have used a fast one successfully.  No feedback suppression though. Ill be installing a QSC Touchmix this fall for a client, may get the small one for coffee house gigs. One outstanding feature of the Qu-16 is the mic preamp quality. I use it for my larger bands.

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## almeriastrings

I was really trying to cut down on the 'clutter' I needed to haul, so the ability of M20D to record to a built-in SDHC card slot (Class 10) was a big plus for me. No extra drives, PSU's or cables required. Seems to work very well. No problems so far. Very satisfied with the preamp quality too, by the way. Previously using both Soundcraft and A&H desks for many years, and these are certainly comparable. Very clean, very quiet and lots of headroom. Prefer them to the pres on the Presonus Studio Live range.

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## Toni Schula

> Be interested to hear how you get on with the Maui. I like ours a lot. There are some good deals at the moment as they are bringing in the new model (with basic mixer built in).


It took a while till I used the MAUI for the first time. Mainly because the band shows strong erosion due to different goals of the members - poor me.

Last weekend I used it in church - which I do on regular basis, every 20 years or so: my parents celebrated their golden wedding anniversary and my daughter, sisters and brother in law sang and played guitar, bass (no extra bass amp, just the maui), mandolin and flute. There were approximately 70 people partly also singing in a room which can hold several hundred. The MAUI handled this with ease with much headroom.

Back to the main topic of this thread: I got very curious about the QSC touchmix. Is this already available in the USA? Had annyone here hands on experiance?
European webshops announced it for end of october but now it just says 'not yet available'.

I downloaded the IPad App and it gives some limited ideas about what to expect and it looks promissing to me. Compared to the M20d even less hardware knobs but a more traditional approach with faders on the touchscreen. Main limitations appear to be: non recallable mic preamp gain (can never be improved by SW upgrades), only manual notch filters as feedback control (could be improved by upgrades).

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## foldedpath

> Back to the main topic of this thread: I got very curious about the QSC touchmix. Is this already available in the USA? Had annyone here hands on experiance?


They're just starting to hit the street here in the USA. Sweetwater says they're receiving stock and they're "now shipping," but only to fill pre-orders. You still have to pre-order to get on the shipping wait list. So I guess we're still a month or two away from hearing much on-the-ground experience with how well they're working, any early bug reports, etc. 

I'm cautiously interested in the new QSC's, and wish I had a reason for actually _needing_ one, since my current compact analog mixers work fine. 
 :Smile:

----------

gtani7

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## TonyP

After going through the whole roller coaster ride with the Soundcraft Ui16 and its not ready for prime time mic pres, I switched horses and went with the Line6 M20D. It showed up late on Thurs. and our gig was on Sat. So I was nervous about going into the breach with brand new equipment. The last time I did that was a disaster of major proportions. So even though I'd been watching vids and thought I had a clue as time got short I got more and more worried.

I pulled the unit out and booted it up. After looking around I was able to basically make a virtual representation of the band. 3 male lead vocals(separate mics) female lead vocal, mic'd mandolin, acoustic bass, guitar DI, mic'd Dobro. So it had all the assignments for the everything. The next day I had time to set up in the garage the whole setup. My old Mackie 450's with the Mackie 150's mounted right below them facing back at the band as monitors. The bonus was the tray mount I made for my little Mackie mixer that mounts on the speaker stand works perfectly for the new M20D. Very tidy with short cable runs. I fired it up using the built in media player through a usb stick and got the mains and monitors all working. Then did the auto level on my voice and mandolin. I was astonished that my mandolin using my usual mic sounded the best I'd ever gotten without a single tweek. And even more astonishing was the levels I was able to get in the garage. I always set up right at the opening of the garage. It's a roll up door and so no matter what the speaker is occluded on top by the door making it a sonic mirror. And making it usually impossible to get any volume. Not until I got totally stupid was I able to get any feedback. After playing around a bit I packed it all up.

The venue is a wonderful produce farm that has picnic tables etc with a petting zoo. Wonderful place for families. We were on a stage along the way from the barn to the petting zoo overlooking a shaded picnic area. I set up and had everything wired up so turned on the mixer and finished the setup. I came back and was trying to see the screen, because of the glare thought it was too bright. But it really had its blue screen of death. Some kind of error. Jump started my heart and rebooted and everything came up like the day before, massive sigh of relief. I everything ready for the auto trim in very quick time for me. It was easy to see where the mics and guitar plugged in. Had each person do an auto trim. I think it's great it doesn't go through the PA. Just have each person sing and play, then tweek from there. The easiest sound check I think I've ever done. We were up and playing in no time. Wife and family who'd heard us before said it sounded better than ever and the band were blown away.

I have a lot to learn and have not had time to get into recording or tweaking with the iPad. But I'm totally happy with my upgrade. It wonderful for someone who's not a pro to have a piece of equipment that is so scaleable. I can't think of another board I've run into that has basic mode and pro mode. So far my only gripe has been not being able to see the screen when outside and the touch screen being a little twitchy at the bottom edge. Specifically muting a monitor then poking the screen again and it didn't want to unmute. Ended up having to take it into the monitor screen where it's not along the bottom edge of the screen. 

I waited until the second gig to put up this as I didn't want to jinx me  :Smile:  the gig yesterday went even better and the band and I get used to it. I'm a happy camper and thanks Almeriastrings for all the help and especially pointing me in this direction.

----------

Charlieshafer, 

Flame Maple, 

foldedpath, 

gtani7

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## almeriastrings

Pleased it is working out for you, Tony. Of all the digital consoles I have used, these are still one of the nicest. The ease of use is second to none, and the quality delivered is first class. Super clean preamps, great FX, and (unlike some) very solid and reliable including by wi-fi. I have not noticed any sensitivity issues with the touchscreen myself, but these can respond in different ways according to the skin of the user or local environment, e.g., high humidity.

I carry a couple of small, soft, micro fiber "glasses cleaning" cloths with me whenever I need to work with touch screens. Gentle use of these can often improve response if the capacitive function is being messed up by humidity or sweaty fingers, etc.  

There is actually a 'screen calibrate' function on this mixer, but I have never needed to use it. I suspect environment is most likely responsible. It can affect iPad and Android Tab screens too.

----------

gtani7

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## TonyP

I'm happy to have found a mixer that is so well thought out. You mentioned it before A, but the screen with its different icons of people and instruments might make some think this is not a serious piece of equipment. But all it takes is to go to the next level down in deep tweak and look what each of those pre sets has going and you get how powerful this unit is. And how much rack gear it replaces. It's crazy it fits in basically the same footprint as my little Mackie 1202, but has 8 more mic pre's a ton of efx feedback buster recorder and can be remote controlled.

The screen thing is funny. Is it possible it learns your touch? I was trying to use the same amount of force I use with my iPad and it just seemed like it was ignoring me. But as time went on it responded easier and easier. At first I though it was me, but I'm still using the IPad the same and the same amount of force is working on the M20d now. As to the bottom edge I've thought about carrying one of those pens that's made for touch screens but so far I'm getting along ok. We also had umbrellas over us this last time and I could see the screen just fine. But it does make you wonder why if this is a common problem why they don't have a black and white mode like a Kindle. I know you'd lose the color, but you'd still be able to poke the thing you are wanting to tweak on the screen and have that encoder light up, which I can see even in direct light. I feel like this thing is so well thought out its all just very minor stuff that could help it now. 

I know it has foot switches that can like turn efx on and off, but can it punch in and out of record? That would be very handy.

I also went right down and bought one of those plastic shell rolly travel bags for the M20d at Target. It was cheaper than the gig bag they make for it and a lot more protection lined with heavy duty closed cell foam. And because of the discount specials MF was running at the time I went ahead and bought the 3yr total coverage. Now it's a time to start getting rid of my old gig rack and assorted equipment. That's what my back is really happy about  :Smile:

----------

gtani7

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## lloving

FWIW.... I have a 4 piece acoustic band using the SoundCraft Ui12. We don't ask for much and the Ui12 fits the bill. Forget the hotspot though, totally unreliable with anything other than a full laptop. I also use a small WAP to get my iPad to work as a mobile mixing station. I connect my laptop to the Ui12 with a Ethernet drop. That way I don't have to worry about loosing the connection. I like the EQ and the AFS. We are not sophisticated enough to judge the mic pres so I can't comment on that. We only use 6 channels, one with a cheap condenser mic. Until we went to the Ui12 we could not sort out the condenser mic. Now its doing fine. 

My .02

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## TonyP

> FWIW.... I have a 4 piece acoustic band using the SoundCraft Ui12. We don't ask for much and the Ui12 fits the bill. Forget the hotspot though, totally unreliable with anything other than a full laptop. I also use a small WAP to get my iPad to work as a mobile mixing station. I connect my laptop to the Ui12 with a Ethernet drop. That way I don't have to worry about loosing the connection. I like the EQ and the AFS. We are not sophisticated enough to judge the mic pres so I can't comment on that. We only use 6 channels, one with a cheap condenser mic. Until we went to the Ui12 we could not sort out the condenser mic. Now its doing fine. 
> 
> My .02


The bottom line is you are satisfied and have an improvement over what you had. That's all that matters and is certainly worth more than .02c. I wish I would have gotten away with a 1/4 of what I spent like you did.

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lloving

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## mandroid

a friend got one,  

 seems just having the  Tablet-controller  via Wi Fi  in the hands of someone in the house 
 makes them able to sort out the sound out in front .
  still on stage  as I saw in my friends (outdoor party) they had a patch cord, 
between the  i-pad sort of piece on a stand @ eye level, 

 and the  rest of the gear with the mic cable plugs, elsewhere.. center stage ..

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## almeriastrings

Well, that is one of the less obvious (but huge) advantages over a typical analog console.

No more heavy multi-cores and bulky wired stage boxes to cart around, as all your mic/DI leads go straight to the mixer that can be anywhere on stage.  The saving in weight, bulk and cable costs is quite substantial. With some of these desks you don't even need the band there to run the sound check. You can do it all by just playing back a multi-track recording and you can wander around the venue while tweaking it. Things have come a long way...

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gtani7

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## TonyP

> Things have come a long way...


Boy howdy, I mean to tell you! It's just hard to even grasp how far until you make the jump. I guess  I should be kinda grateful that my "big" board took and electronic header or I never would have made the jump. And having four for sure gigs in a row was the clincher. It's funny the guys who have this board mainly complain about paying the original $2600 for it when it came out.  So I guess I can't really complain. But I was going to make do with less but when foldedpath mentioned the lack of physical attached screen and faders/encoders that got me seriously thinking about this leap to not having any fall back. None of the reviews can really prepare you for all the stuff in this small footprint. There's still some more paring down that's going to happen even from what's been trimmed as I get more confident and I push the whole rig harder. We played a lot louder than I have been able to and the system was probably only running around 30%. No feedback, no noise, no hiss. Just clean. What a concept.

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## lloving

> Things have come a long way...


No kidding. My small 4 piece band sets up with the Ui12 on the floor next to the center mic stand. We run very short cables rather than the usual 25 footers we used to use. Makes take down a lot easier given that most of the band is cable coiling challenged. A rats nest of 8 foot cables is a lot easier to clean up than a nest of 25 foot cables.

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## TonyP

We are 4pc too. 4 vocals, 4 instruments, mandolin, guitar, bass and dobro. I have a condenser for mandolin, mini mic for dobro, pic up for guitar and piezo pickup bass. The presets for the different vocals and instruments are amazing. I did have to back off the 'verb on the vocals because it was just a touch much. But the Eq and compressor seem to work so I left them. I don't know why but with my analog boards even though I left the sliders the way they were we'd always have to sound check because for whatever reason thing would change, sometimes drastically. With this, its all the same, just plug and play. The last gig the dobro player came late and showed up at the beginning of the second set. It literally took less time to plug in his vocal mic and dobro than for him to tune. We didn't even  sound check, just made sure we had some signal and went. 

Pros frown down on this,but I use those cord reels you get at hardware stores for electrical cords for the mic cords and power cords. Two reels does the whole setup and when you roll them out they aren't all tangled and lay flat. Roll one up, then plug the next one into it, repeat as necessary. Just don't get carried away with getting them too tight and I've never had a cord fail yet ( knocks on wooden head). The last cord on each reel has a big Velcro strap that ties the end so it stays tight. It also is used to hold the assorted cords to the stand when set up. The fiddle player in our first band came up with that and I've been doing it ever since.

I also got tired of trying to figure out which mic cord was what length as I use powered speakers with the mixer mounted on the speaker stand right next to me and everything uses XLR cables of varying lengths. So the speaker and monitor cords on that side are 6's and for the other side 25'. So I got colored electrical tape from radio shack and made colored rings on each end of the cable. Blue is 10', red is 5'. So the 25' is 2 blue rings and one red ring and so on. Cuts down on confusion and speeds up the process immensely. Probably soon the mic, everything will be networked wifi...probably already is in pro land.

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## lloving

I bought a couple of sets of colored XLR mic cables. Keep the same color scheme from one gig to the next. Everybody knows their cable colors and what port they use on the mixer. Makes hookup a team effort.

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gtani7

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## Dan Co1e

+1 on the SoundCraft UI12.  Running this board with a pair of JBL Eon615 and a pair of Eon610 for monitors.   Life is good.

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## lloving

I am purposely reviving an old thread to post an interesting observation on the much discussed SoundCraft Ui series of digital mixers. I have been using the Ui12 for 6 months or so with only limited success. I have experienced a maddening array of connection problems both with the resident hotspot and with the hardwired LAN connection.  I just completed some testing in preparation for our first gig of the new year and was faced with connections issues that again rendered the mixer useless. 

Absent any real support from SoundCraft USA I did the complete factory reset using the fullreset.txt  file on a USB drive. Of course I lost all my snapshots and shows but my hope was to regain control of the system. After rebooting the mixer to its factory configuration, connection problems persisted and the unit was still useless. I then dowloaded and installed the latest firmware update. This was not the first time I had installed this update but it was the first time I had installed it on the unit after it was freshly reset to its original firmware version. 

Wahla success. The mixer is operating as intended. The hotspot works consistently as does the hardwired LAN connection. Hoping this turn of events is not temporary, I can only speculate that the firmware version the unit was shipped with was somehow "corrupt" thereby requiring a full factory reset before installing subsequent updates. 

The lesson learned is "wipe it clean and start over" if you are having any connection issues with the SoundCraft Ui series of digital mixers.

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gtani7

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## almeriastrings

Regarding snapshots, you can back these up to a small USB stick and therefore save them while you do any resets or upgrades. Use the 'EXPORT SHOW' command. After updates, you just import them again.

There can be many, many reasons for connection problems with _all_ wi-fi based mixers. Diagnosing them can be tricky. Certainly a full reset and re-load of firmware can solve things (sometimes!). 

It can be down to the tablet or computer you are connecting to. I have found that using a really good external router (preferably dual band) makes a huge difference in connection stability and strength.

The Ui's are very good mixers, with a few provisos. They are not great with low output mics - you need fairly 'hot' mics. The internal +48v is rather noisy - but you can bypass that and use either self-powered (battery powered back-electrets) or an external phantom box. The actual interface and GUI is very, very good - and the effects are also very good indeed. The cross-platform 'app free' ability is unmatched. I ended up swapping the Ui12 for a Ui16 that I now leave at one of our regular venues. It works extremely well and sounds fine.

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gtani7

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## lloving

Absolutely agree on all points. The interesting failure with this unit was the hardwired connection. That was my operational fallback. When that failed I got worried since I really like this mixer. But all connection modes are working well now so I am a happy camper. 

Thanks so much for your continuing input.

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## TonyP

Wow, what a scary turn lloving. I'm glad you were able to get it back going again. And thanks for sharing here where others might find it. 

The whole process of going digital was so overwhelming with way to many variables I hung back for months lurking. Just trying to get enough understanding to be able to ask questions. Ultimately it was a lack of a integral interface that scared me the most. Every time I go to do sound at a gig something goes wrong and never the same thing. Since going digital that has greatly diminished.

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## almeriastrings

A few more random observations as I have a few minutes spare this morning...

There is a "new kid on the block" in the form of the RFC M18.  Despite the name, this only has 8 mic preamps, though a larger version is apparently in the works. I got to spend a little time with one recently. 

Impressions and findings:

1) Nice form factor. Built in PSU. GUI is nice looking (but iPad only, no Android). 
2) Shocked to discover the 1/4" line inputs are all unbalanced. 
3) Mic preamps sounded good enough. Similar to those on Behringer X-Air series subjectively. 
4) Very limited output processing. Strange choice of modules. "Tube warmth"? "Exciter"? Some better EQ or AFS would have been far more useful and relevant.
6) From what I could tell, the built-in wi-fi was decent, but I think you'd still need an external router as the mixer is likely to be close to the floor in use.
7) Expensive for what it offers ($899). Very expensive in today's market, where you can find a Behringer X-Air XR-16 for $399.... and that does offer balanced line inputs and also runs on Android and from what I could tell, sounds no better or worse. GUI is not as nice looking, but the functionality is all there. $400 for a M18 is a lot extra when you consider it has some major deficiencies and no clear advantages...

Other things...

I also borrowed a QSC Touchmix 16 for a week or two to play with. Hmmm..  nice enough, but again, some peculiarities. Major downer on this: the inputs are not fully re-callable! So, you have to adjust the trims using an ANALOG pot! There is some digital "wriggle room" later, but only AFTER the A/D converters.. so, given that one of the really big selling points of a digital mixer is that you have* TOTAL RECALL*  over scenes and setups, this mixer falls down badly, as it just can't deliver on that. For me, that would count it out. It may be fine if you don't need lots of different setups... but if you run sound for others, or open mics, or anything where very different levels might be appearing - forget it.

AFS: If you are using a system that does not have it, you can now add it easily.  Enter the new DBX GORACK.  $99... and it works very well indeed. The compression and EQ is limited, but worth the money for access to the excellent AFS-2 feedback suppressor alone. This is a very, very effective and transparent system. Extremely easy to setup and use. You can run it on monitors, or on mains. Worth knowing about.

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Astro

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## foldedpath

> I also borrowed a QSC Touchmix 16 for a week or two to play with. Hmmm..  nice enough, but again, some peculiarities. Major downer on this: the inputs are not fully re-callable! So, you have to adjust the trims using an ANALOG pot! There is some digital "wriggle room" later, but only AFTER the A/D converters.. so, given that one of the really big selling points of a digital mixer is that you have* TOTAL RECALL*  over scenes and setups, this mixer falls down badly, as it just can't deliver on that. For me, that would count it out. It may be fine if you don't need lots of different setups... but if you run sound for others, or open mics, or anything where very different levels might be appearing - forget it.


Thanks for the heads-up on that QSC mixer. It's the one I've been planning on getting if I could justify it, but so far I'm not doing enough gigs to rationalize it except on the basis of "new toy," so I'll wait a while. 

It's odd that input trim can't be recalled, but I guess they couldn't hit the target price relative to the build quality and other factors, with that feature added. For my personal use it wouldn't be an issue, because I'd be using it only for my own duo, or duo + guests, where every input would be either a DPA 4099 clip-on mic or one of my ATM710 vocal mics. I know where the input trim sweet spot is for those mics relative to each source, so it would seldom change. The recall I'd need would be the actual mixer adjustments for specific rooms and situations; fader adjustments, EQ, amount of reverb etc. But I could see where this would be a problem if you're running an open mic, or running sound for multiple acts.

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## TonyP

Oh, oh, GORack! how cool is that! Thanks so much for pointing that out Almeria. My mini system doesn't have AFS and I miss it after so many years of using it in my dbx DriveRack 260. So it is stereo? And you can run the mains mono through one side and the monitors on the other, independently? I'm curious how you go through the setup, it's got such a small screen. 

Maybe you could do a little more expanded review(hint, hint)? or is it so basic no need? I'll have to see if there's anything on it on U2oob. I don't really care about the compression, but would love to know about like how many slots the AFS has for each ch. and what kind of eq, and is it stereo. Wall wort? $99, can't beat that! weeeee!

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## almeriastrings

From what I can tell. the GoRack assigns ten 'floating' notch filters. Unlike on the 'full' DBX Drive Racks where some are fixed and some float, on the GoRack none are fixed.. they all float. I have another version of this same DBX AFS2 algorithm (but with some fixed, some floating) on our Soundcraft Ui16 system, and I must say that having used a variety of such systems over the years (including Sabines, Peavey Feedback Ferret's and older DBX incarnations), I do find the AFS2 system by far the most effective and transparent (only one I like as much is the one on the Line 6 M20d). On the GoRack there are only three adjustments, one suited to speech only (wider notch) one to mixed (speech/music) and one to music (ultra-narrow notch). Sensitivity also varies between these three settings.

The only full, tech review so far is in Sound on Sound magazine (subscription to read full article):

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar1...dbx-gorack.htm

I am a subscriber, so I can report that they like it..summary: "Excellent sound quality... effective feedback suppression... hugely effective piece of kit for the live performer....professional level of performance...feedback section particularly impressive in killing ringing without messing up the sound". Obviously, some aspects of it would be of no interest to "us", such as sub syntheziser (unless you run discos on the side, possibly  :Laughing:  and the EQ on outputs are preset only), but really, it is the AFS that I think would be of main interest here, and $99 for a really good AFS is silly cheap! I can remember when you could pay 10X that and they were not even close to being as transparent as the new AFS2 is.

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TonyP

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## mandotim1955

Almeria, you're a great guy and all that, but you are seriously bad for my bank balance! Ordered a GoRack yesterday. My wife is gigging a lot these days with an acoustic band where they mike the space rather than individual instruments. Feedback can be a big issue, and this is just perfect as a 'set and forget' solution. Thanks for spotting this!

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