# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  Why the nasal singing?

## FrDNicholas

This is not meant as criticism, just don't understand it: Why do some bluegrassers, not from the Southeast necessarily, sing with that kind of nasal voice? I noticed this at the local bluegrass jam I am able to go to. Is it trying to keep in the tradition of Bill Monroe and others from the Appalachian area? Even Chris Thile and Michael Davies sing that way on their recent CD. When I listen to bluegrass radio I don't necessarily hear all the modern musicians singing that way. Some sing with their natural voices. What am I missing here?

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## Jim Garber

Same thing with blues singers and even rock and rollers putting on some sort of southern accent. Hey, they even did that in the UK (see Rolling Stones and Beatles). Sort of what some folks see as part of the genre. 

I played in a band many years ago with an excellent singer whose advice to all was sing in your own true voice. She did and it was awesome.

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## AlanN

That aspect is precisely what turns off many folks from the classic bluegrass. Some bands deliberately tried to get away from that (Seldom Scene comes to mind). Even the CG had some of that vibe going on. It is part of the High Lonesome, and as a student and picker, I can understand both sides of the coin. It's just part of one part of the genre.

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## sunburst

Here's my hypothesis:
Bluegrass music, as we know it today, came about in Bill Monroe's band. Bill was a competitive sort of fellow, and being able to sing higher than others was a source of pride, so when Bill's band sang, they sang near the top of their singing ranges, especially on harmonies. 
So, the sound of bluegrass came to be bass, guitar, fiddle, banjo, mandolin and three white guys singing as high as they can (with variations, of coarse). The way I figure it, three white guys singing as high as they can is nasal enough without any further effort toward nasality, but some folks didn't get the memo and feel like they have to deliberately sing in a nasal voice to sound like authentic bluegrass singers.

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## Marty Henrickson

Agreed, Alan and John.  Some performers can do this very tastefully, other times it just sounds phony and bad.  Even the genuine "high lonesome" sound can be an acquired taste, for some.

I have lived in the South all of my life, yet my dad was born & raised in Wisconsin.  As a result, I have had Southerners tell me in the past that I sounded like a Yankee, and when we visited up North, they all wanted to hear my southern drawl - _"Say, 'y'all'!"_   Now, the older I get, the more Southern I sound, but I still might affect a bit more "twang" when singing certain songs.

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## Bertram Henze

I too have often wondered why singing like your gun went off in your pocket is supposed to be authentic. I have two theories:

1 - practical. With a high voice, you are more easily heard above the range of guitar and banjo.
2 - mimicking: Old age gives you the image of wise authentity, and old men have high, hoarse voices; so, if you want to sound like you were born during the civil war...

I may be imagining all that, of course.

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## Fred Keller

I also believe that pushing one's voice--especially the male voice--to the top of or slightly beyond one's range is part of the tension of the music.  By tension I mean, the feeling of riding the edge of the beat, pushing, and straining.  It's one of the things I love about bluegrass, that sense of every bit of the music being ratcheted in some way and not necessarily just with speed.  I also confess I miss hearing that struggle when women sing bluegrass.  It's not the quality of their voices which is wonderful; I miss the feeling of "pushing."  On the other hand, women like Rose Maddux or Hazel Dickens...love me some of that!

It's not necessarily right or wrong and it gets way overused (another obnoxious version of "Ruby" anyone?) but it's there I think.

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## AlanN

also believe that pushing one's voice--especially the male voice--to the top of or slightly beyond one's range is part of the tension of the music. By tension I mean, the feeling of riding the edge of the beat, pushing, and straining.

And can be dangerous, see one Tony Rice.

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## mandopete

> 1 - practical. With a high voice, you are more easily heard above the range of guitar and banjo.


My thoughts exactly.

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## mandopete

> And can be dangerous, see one Tony Rice.


My thoughts exactly.

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## mandopete

Nasal singing?  It's an acquired taste, sorta like sauerkraut.

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## Marty Henrickson

Fred & Alan, you are on the right track there, I think.

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## AlanN

Ruby, or Rubeeeeeeeeeee

Omg, ain't it the truth. Just looking at the word hurts. There's a guy around here, Eddie Gill, who sings this and does it right (if that can be said in polite circles...). For those in the know, that song gets a 'Son'. For all others, it's head for the hills time.

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## Gary Hedrick

The high singing was in the 50's and 60's (and I think today also) is one of those macho challenge things. I just hate it when I sit in for the mandolin player with a local band made up of former Bluegrass Boys.......all the damn songs in B ......too high for me.....to odd sounding to play....just move it back to A (or for my poor voice G)

Also this reminds me of a John Duffy quip....."Let's do it in the Key of B for Bluegrass"   or something to that essence ....John just couldn't leave it alone in terms of poking at the Bluegrass establishment.....(but that is for another thread)

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## man dough nollij

I think it's akin to singing rock-ish genre music with a fake British accent. That has always been annoying to me-- that singers drop the "r" and feel the need to pronounce everything like Paul McCartney would. Modern/popular country music is almost all like fingernails on a chalkboard with the hyper-annoying fake southern twang. The "High Lonesome" doesn't bother me, unless it's monotonous.

Love this lyric from the Drive By Truckers:

"Don’t call what your wearing an outfit. Don’t ever say your car is broke. 
Don’t sing with a fake British accent. Don’t act like your family’s a joke. 
Have fun, but stay clear of the needle, call home on your sister’s birthday. 
Don’t tell them you’re bigger than Jesus, Don’t give it away."

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## Fretbear

"Effected" singing is moronic and not worthy of serious attention. Tony Rice and Lester Flatt were two of the greatest bluegrass lead singers that ever lived and neither sang nasally. As Alan noted, because of the musical style he found himself playing in, Tony sang higher than his natural range really allowed for and ultimately paid for it with his voice. The fact that he could even accomplish such a non-advisable feat is a testament to his incredible drive and talent.
Jimmy Martin, another of the great bluegrass lead singers, did sing somewhat nasally, but he did so as it was his totally natural and extremely powerful vocal style.

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## allenhopkins

I think that the tradition of "high lonesome" singing long predates Bill Monroe and bluegrass.  Listening to unaccompanied Appalachian singers one hears both men and women singing at the higher end of their vocal ranges.  The need to be heard before the days of amplification, the emotional content of nearly "straining" vocals sung in a piercing tone, and the influence of even earlier British Isles traditions of vocal stylings, probably had a lot to do with this.  Singing over a fiddle-led string band, without a microphone, would also push vocalists to sing loud, sing high, and select the most "projecting" tone they could deliver.

*Nimrod Workman*



*Dillard Chandler*



*Almeda Riddle*



I do agree that contemporary bluegrass singers adopting a style that's not natural to them, and sounding "affected" and imitative, makes little sense.  Bluegrass has featured its share of lower-range lead singers, from Charlie Waller to John Starling and many more, and it can seem a bit incongruous when some guy from Brooklyn or San Diego suddenly starts trying to sound like he just came out of the Appalachians.  I remember a college roommate laughing at Joan Baez's adopted "Southern Ohio accent" when she sang songs like _Banks of the Ohio_ and _Little Darling, Pal of Mine_ on her early albums.  No different from the Rolling Stones trying to sound African-American, or a whole slew of folk revivalists trying to sound English or Irish, though.

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## AlanN

Yep, it's all a matter of what you were blessed with coming into this world. Those singers that could naturally hit the 'right' notes without straining generally continue to sing well into old age. Del is a good example. Mr. High and Lonesome, he continues to get the right notes and vibe in his vocals. Truly blessed. And he ain't for everybody. Duffey was an anomaly in that he often did the falsetto (convincingly, not cartoon-ish) but it worked for him and his style. Again, not for everybody. Regrettably, he did not live well into old age.

In the rock aisle, Roger Daltry is another guy who just ruined his voice with all that early-career shouting and straining. Think the part where he comes in with that long and perfect 'YEEEAAAHHH' after the organ (?) solo on Won't Get Fooled Again. I haven't heard that number performed by The Who since that record came out in 1974 or so, but I bet he cannot/does not even try to do that these days. And Robert Plant completely changed his vocal style to account for his age and inability to do what he once did (which was sing against the grain.)

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## Gary Hedrick

Now this makes sense to me  Allen.......in my "early" days we would play with bad sound systems if any sound system at all. To be heard my brother and I learned to really push out our singing. We had to be loud to be heard. Singing higher would help "pierce" the din of the people talking etc at the socials or where ever we were providing the background "noise".  The same thing was true with my mandolin playing.....I learned to play in "attack" mode all the time.....it was the only way to be heard......a single mic and poor sound made you push push push....higher action....closer to the bridge etc. A Thile style would be lost in the background noise. All the delicate notes would be swallowed up. 
High Lonesome just didn't start and end in Kentucky, West Virginia, Tennessee and the Carolinas......southern Indiana had it's share of no money,  no jobs and existence farming and no hope of change.  The pain was expressed in the emotion of the singing....higher, more haunting, more pain expressed. I can rememer my relatives telling me that I couldn't go to college because we just couldn't do things like that......there was no hope.....

Also my grandmother would sing in a style very very much like Bill Monroe......same tone....same high plaintive, painful emotion. She lived a life of a poor dirt, creek bottom farmer's  wife....with egg money being the main income between harvests, selling pigs etc. The singing was loud, high, emotional and hurting.

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## mandopete

> Tony Rice and Lester Flatt were two of the greatest bluegrass lead singers that ever lived and neither sang nasally.


I respectfully disagree.

I don't mind the singers that sing with an accent, whether it's natural or not, I just like the sound it makes.  Personally I could care less where the singer's voice orignates.

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## JeffD

> That aspect is precisely what turns off many folks from the classic bluegrass. It is part of the High Lonesome, and as a student and picker, I can understand both sides of the coin. It's just part of one part of the genre.


Bluegrass is just something you have to get.

In the beginning I had been playing mandolin for a few years and had never heard (or even heard of) bluegrass before. I went to a festival, and on first hearing said, out loud, "Oh dear God what is that!"  

Years later, for some reason, all of a sudden I "got it". The way all the instrumentals and vocals work together towards the same dramatic effects. And I was addicted. 

Attempts to lose the nasal whiney singing sound "less right" to my ear. Its as important as that mandolin break.

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## AlanN

Sure, Pete.

For those of us old enough to know (gawd, I use that phrase more and more these days...), Jim Nabors [Gomer Pyle, U.S.M.C.] turned out not to be that slack-jawed moronic local yokel with the thick drawl, but rather the fine-toned operatic singer. I remember being a bit disappointed when he 'came out' as such.

Shazam!

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## Beanzy

I think some posters have confused high with nasal. High is great to hear from a good voice. Someone pushing their vocal chords definitely gets more fine control from their voice, as long as they know how and where that control is needed. It's also way less forgiving of error on the part of thw singer. Nasal singing is ok in it's place. There's a really big tradition of it in Ireland in the 'comeallye' style.It's a way of playing with the natural resonance of that part of your skull, but many people just resonate at a few set frequencies so it's very patchy and inconsistent for most people to use unless the song is really simple. They hit their sweet spot but die-off as soon as they move from there. I should say it divides opinion there as surely as the buzz-saw it can sound like. Many of the old time records I listen to have singers pulling the sound from the throat rather than using the nasal sound, way smoother to my ear. 

Don't get me started on accents, I hate hate hate people this side of the pond putting on shamerican accents.
Did I mention I hate it?  :Smile:

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## Willie Poole

Gary, I think John Duffey could sing ANY song in ANY key if he wanted to, what a voice range he had....I also think when talking about the best bluegrass singers out there one would have to include Charlie Waller in that group...To be a good singer in bluegrass a person don`t have to sing in that high lonesome style, just be on key and pronounce the words so everyone can understand them, something that I find that a lot of singers now don`t do, also a lot of them let their volume drop off at the end of a line in a song....

      Willie

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## tree

> Yep, it's all a matter of what you were blessed with coming into this world. Those singers that could naturally hit the 'right' notes without straining generally continue to sing well into old age. Del is a good example. Mr. High and Lonesome, he continues to get the right notes and vibe in his vocals. Truly blessed. And he ain't for everybody. Duffey was an anomaly in that he often did the falsetto (convincingly, not cartoon-ish) but it worked for him and his style. Again, not for everybody. Regrettably, he did not live well into old age.
> 
> In the rock aisle, Roger Daltry is another guy who just ruined his voice with all that early-career shouting and straining. Think the part where he comes in with that long and perfect 'YEEEAAAHHH' after the organ (?) solo on Won't Get Fooled Again. I haven't heard that number performed by The Who since that record came out in 1974 or so, but I bet he cannot/does not even try to do that these days. And Robert Plant completely changed his vocal style to account for his age and inability to do what he once did (which was sing against the grain.)


Ralph Stanley is another one that probably isn't for everybody but for me, his voice (and his unique choice of harmony notes) scratches a profound and primitive itch. Dan Tyminski has such a fine, natural nasal resonance that he reminds me of Tony Rice in his prime singing days.  Your schnoz and sinuses definitely affect the quality of your singing voice, whether you work it that way intentionally or not.

Then there's personal taste . . . for me, the vocals of Sugarland grate so harshly on my nerves that I simply can't listen.  I'll shut off the radio if I have to.  As hard as it may be for me to imagine, there are likely people who feel the same way about Doc Watson, Ray Charles, George Jones or Ella Fitzgerald.  Viva la difference, I reckon.

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## Paul Kotapish

Allen is right about the high-and-lonesome vocal style predating Mr. Monroe--probably by centuries. 

That high, clear (nasal, for want of a better term) style is certainly well documented in th earliest recordings of rural early commercial country music. Listen to any of the original Carter Family sides, for example, or some of those very early field recordings of solo balladeers, string bands with vocalists, or shape-note assemblies and you'll hear a pervasive preference for the high-and-lonesome approach. 

In addition to that "nasal" approach to singing, the southern mountains and lowlands were/are filled with interesting vocal styles and techniques, including hollering, whooping, eefing, yodeling, and more.

Check out this recording (with online samples) to learn more: http://www.newworldrecords.org/album...album_id=80223

The liner notes are worth reading, too: http://www.newworldrecords.org/linernotes/80223.pdf

Agreed that it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I'm in the "love it" camp on this one. Give me Roscoe Holcolm, Bill Monroe, Hazel Dickens, Doc Boggs, or Tommy Jarrell every time.

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## Gary Hedrick

Willie, I agree he could sing anything he wanted.  The key of B statement was during his constant needling of the hard core bluegrass of the day.  Lord, he really loved to go after it. I remember the 1st time I saw the Gentlemen in 1962......I was amazed and flabergasted. I'd never seen such bluegrass. Neil Rosenberg is person who coaxed my father to see them at Indiana University.  He kept telling Dad about this group and how he needed to see them.  Quite a memory I have of that night.

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## CES

Twang I like unless fake.  High Lonesome I like unless fake.  "Nasal" I can only take in limited doses.

I used to only be able to listen to Dell for a couple of songs, but have grown to really respect his voice, and have learned to love it if for no other reason than to hear Ronnie pick!

My answer to the OP's original question is simply, "That's just how a lot of folks do it in Bluegrass."  The reasons already posed by others seem sufficient to support why that's how they do it in BG...

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## Ivan Kelsall

"Nasality" was almost always part of the Trad.Folk tradition in the UK when singing Folk songs,& i could never understand why.To me it sounded 'artificial',something 'put on' for the audience.That & the singer's habit of holding a cupped hand against mouth & ear (ostensibly so they could hear themselves better) seemed ridiculous,especially when their voices were coming back at them through the PA system !.
   For me,it was just 'part of the act',but something i could personally do without.Years back during the Folk boom era,Country & Western as well as Bluegrass music was going strong over here,a band called "The Hillsiders" from Liverpool were the first non-American band to play on the Grand Ole Opry. Almost all the singers in the many  C & W bands over here sang with a fake American accent,i guess it was maybe to (try to) re-create the 'sound' of the original.
    I had an amusing experience at the IBMA festival in '92. Me & my work's colleague whom i was over in the  USA with, stayed at the Executive Inn. One morning we went down to the restaurant for breakfast & there was a very lovely young woman serving behind the food counter. When she heard me speak,she said _"I sure do like your accent"_ - i had to explain to her in a very 'put-on' posh voice that _"we don't have accents,it's you people who do"_. She & the lady who was with her had a good laugh at that one - that 'made my morning',
                                                   Ivan :Grin:

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## Bertram Henze

I understand that high singing is expressing a certain mindset associated with Bluegrass, but only optionally. You don't have to do it just to create "that feeling". John Hartford or Elisabeth Laprelle did/do perfectly without.

This music is about people, about genuine personalities; the one thing inseparably linked to personality is voice. Therefore, sing with the voice you've got, because that's you and only that is you. Trying to be somebody else can lead to no good.

BTW here John Hartford tells his own story about where the high singing is coming from.

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## Bradley

I will go along with what others have said in that I can handle High and Lonesome if it is 
natural, and being a big Stanley Brothers fan I love The Mountain voice if its real. Now Del and the Boys I love if Del is NOT singing. His voice makes me want to cut my wrists.

Being almost a middle aged guy (44)its funny seeing the older age group that was so inspired my Monroe, where they try to sing everything like Bill even if is NOT their key, you can only play a Gibson,and B was for Bluegrass !!  On the flip side of that its really cool seeing the younger kids play 12,387 notes a second just like Thile, they cant find the melody but they can play all the way up to the bridge. Moving forward I hope Sierra Hull makes an impact on her generation- I think her style is riht in the middle where it needs to be.

I am in Ohio and we are playing this weeked down in the Stanley region of Eastern Ky, I am so looking forward to hearing some of the real stuff (Hopefully)

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## ralph johansson

Not sure what this thread is about; nasal is not the same as high. Take Hank Thompson or Hank Snow whose singing was extremely nasal.

And what exactly is your natural voice? Without some training most of us have a very limited range and very unsure intonation. Is that our natural voice?

As for the range of BG singing, the average male voice, a baritone, has (with some training) a range from G to g', the lower fifth of which is not really practical in Bluegrass.
The tenor comes on top of that, often with the aid of falsetto. In his early Decca days Monoe tended to sing very high, hitting those a':s with  full voice; later he rarely went beyond g', using falsetto for the higher notes - presumably so as not to drown out the lead singer.

If BG lead singers were to sing lower than the range I indicated it would be very difficult to sing the part below the melody.

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## Bertram Henze

> the average male voice, a baritone, has (with some training) a range from G to g', the lower fifth of which is not really practical in Bluegrass.


Training can do a lot, but I'd call the natural voice the one somebody's talking with.
Falsetto is the normal emergency exit if you need to sing high and not ruin your voice. This was very much trained in baroque music, but, let's face it, it is kind of funny. Not because the voice is strained (it isn't), but because it doesn't seem to fit the looks:

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## Cheryl Watson

I like some singer's high lonesome sound, while others get on my nerves---BAD!  There is a point where it can be too radical and fake.  Same thing Tree said, I love a great country singer's voice, but when it sounds too pretend and out-on, then it is a turn-off for me because it overcomes the tune and the lyrics. 

When I sing country, I lean my voice that way; same with bluegrass or rock, 40's style swing, but I don't lean to the extreme. My voice is still _my_ voice with different flavorings and dynamics.   I mean, you can't sing a bluegrass song with an operatic style or it does not fit, but overdoing just about _anything_ is not a good thing.

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## Pete Martin

I also wonder about the effect of key selection on music.  I bet most experienced Bluegrass players would say a mid to high tempo song sang in the key of B has more power from the instruments than the same song in the key of G.  Could easily be that the performer chooses a key with at least a little bit of idea of how the instruments sound in certain keys.

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## Jeff Hildreth

Lack of originality , lack of authenticity.

I see nasal and high singing copiests as I do "reliced" instruments.. a silly affectation.

According to some, I believe this means I just "don't get bluegrass".

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## Rex Hart

Not to get off topic, but the fab four sang all of there songs with an American accent, because that is the way they heard Chuck Berry and Elvis and Buddy Holly do it.They certainly did not have the same over pronounced accent that Peter Noone of 'erman's 'ermits did. I tend to sing the words in the same accent that I grew up listening to the original song in.

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## AlanN

Too country a voice on the bg turns me off, and vice-versa. One notable exception is on an Aubrey Haynie record, a country vocalist on a tune which has the great line "You never know when He's coming back or when you're leavin', can I get an Amen".

The guy just sounds right.

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## swampy

Both Tony and Lester sang in the range of their instrument.
Bill and Duffy sang in the range of thier instrument, (albeit the higher part). If one were to sing the melody they were playing on the mandolin, matching the pitch and key, you come off as singing high. Now, whether or not the melody originated vocally or instumentally first is another matter. I heard it mentioned that Bill favored these higher keys more as a sign of instrumental prowess than vocal.

Also the early mtn sounds mimicked the fiddle. Seriously, listen to the vibration in the voice and the instrument. Those nasally singers sound awful fiddle-like. Early bowed instruments, (such as crude fiddles) were created to mimic the human voice

Lastly, I know a lot of folks in the south that talk nasally and in a sort of high mountain dialect, it just comes out when they sing. 

As for newer musicians imitating this, I'm not bothered when they get it right, but when they get it wrong I think it's kind of ridiculous, not unlike early Stones or Yardbirds trying to sound like old black men from the American south.

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## mandolino maximus

When I saw Thile/Daves live, there was a thought that maybe Daves might not be as good live.  Turns out he's better live and not by toning it down, but by stepping that style up and putting himself into it.  He didn't do it halfway and it absoultely rocked.  Others do not rock, usually because they aren't as good and/or because they are only imitating.  

Singing style is a method of distinction and a genre distinguishes itself with / consists of styles.  Nobody hears Billl Monroe when they think of Nessun Dorma.  (Well, now I do.  Totally rad.)  

Ever notice that the strongest styles always have a fair number of detractors / non-subscribers?

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## JeffD

Whoa, hang on here. What is affected, what is natural. 

The whole act of singing is one huge affectation. We don't talk that way, we don't communicate ideas to each other that way, we don't tell stories to our children that way. The whole thing is a performance. And a performance is a deliberate affectation from top to bottom.

With all the things you have to "affect" just to carry a tune, a few more things, like the tembre of your voice or the accent you use, well perhaps its just all part of what you do to sing that tune. The whole point is to convey something.


That being said, I do think it is important to sound natural.   :Confused: 

Natural, to my ears, is when it sounds effortless, without strain. When it sounds as easy and regular as the way you talk, knowing full well that there is no way that is the way you talk.

Naturalness, like sincerity, once you can fake that you have it made.

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## allenhopkins

> ...the singer's habit of holding a cupped hand against mouth & ear (ostensibly so they could hear themselves better) seemed ridiculous,especially when their voices were coming back at them through the PA system...


I think it was Sara Grey who described the "Ewan MacColl stereo" as having only a left speaker...

If you listen extensively to a particular musical -- vocal -- style, when you start singing in that style, you almost unconsciously imitate the sounds to which you've been listening.  White blues singers adopt pronunciations and phrasing from African-American blues, non-Irish-American folkies on St. Patrick's day find a hint of brogue creeping in, and bluegrass bands from New Haven or Sacramento sound like they may come from at least the _foothills_ of the Appalachians.  It's not just an "affectation" or a "put-on," but just an attempt to re-create the music they love and want to play.

Seems there are several different questions going, including (1) "high-pitched" vs. "nasal" in terms of vocal styles -- not necessarily the same thing; (2) why do _Appalachian_ singers use the "high lonesome" (high-pitched _and_ nasal) vocal style; and (3) why do non-Appalachian bluegrass singers often feel the urge/need to adopt a similar style (with various degrees of success)?

One of the little sidebar oddities is listening to young singers involved in blues-influenced rock'n'roll, trying to sound like British singers who were trying to sound like Black American singers.   Accents/phrasing passing through several hands.

I remember watching the excellent movie _The Commitments,_ about a "soul" band in Dublin, Ireland.  All those Irish kids trying to sound like James Brown or Percy Sledge...  Would soul music work if it were sung in a "Clancy Brothers" accent?  Does anyone remember the _SNL_ sketch where Garrett Morris sings at a Hibernian Club event, and is the only one who can sing _Danny Boy_ (I think) in a perfect "Irish tenor" voice?  Ah well...

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## Mandolin-Tele

This is a great post
A few years back I was in Tennessee and I was talking to a waitress I said some of the music was just to twangy and has to thick a accent for me

and this old lady was sitting and listening at another table said "Just like old bones in a soup I eat the marrow and can't get enough of it"

How true this Lady was saying, I love this style now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSI-j...eature=related

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## Mike Bunting

> This is a great post
> A few years back I was in Tennessee and I was talking to a waitress I said some of the music was just to twangy and has to thick a accent for me
> 
> and this old lady was sitting and listening at another table said "Just like old bones in a soup I eat the marrow and can't get enough of it"
> 
> How true this Lady was saying, I love this style now
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSI-j...eature=related


 Thanks for turning me on to Elizabeth LaPrelle. Love that old mountain music. I sent that youtube to my daughter, also a Saro.

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## Ivan Kelsall

From* Ralph J*, - _"...Without some training most of us have a very limited range and very unsure intonation. Is that our natural voice ?"_. Yes - but that doesn't mean that our 'natural voice' can't be trained to sound better,but certain natural abilities have to be there in the first instance,you can't make a good voice out of a bad one,if you could,i'd be singing like Pavarotti.
   I'm with the ''sing in your natural voice'' fraternity - artificiallity is just that. I adore the regional accents that we have in the UK & in the parts of the USA that i've visited in the past. It's one of the defining characteristics of _'who we are & where we come from'_. 
   I got to know a very well know (& local to me), singer of traditional Lancashire (the UK county where i live) dialect songs & a writer of dialect poems,back in the late '60's. I told him once that coming from the county of Cheshire,(my 'home' county),that i didn't seem to have much of an accent.He replied - "that's because you can't hear yourself the way others do". I got a shock several years later when i had a band together. We made a demo tape for the Philips record Co.& at the end the tape recorder was left running for several minutes & recorded us talking. When i heard myself speak for the first time,it shocked me rigid !. If i hadn't recognised the words that i'd spoken,i'd never have known it was me - it sounded totally alien,nothing at all the way my speaking voice 'sounds to me' while i'm actually speaking.
   I've often wondered what the impact would be on each of us,if we could sit back & 'watch our own behaviour' for a few hours - quite a sobering experience for most of us i think,
                                                                  Ivan :Redface:

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## Bertram Henze

> When i heard myself speak for the first time,it shocked me rigid !. If i hadn't recognised the words that i'd spoken,i'd never have known it was me - it sounded totally alien,nothing at all the way my speaking voice 'sounds to me' while i'm actually speaking.


Frequent recording is the way to come to terms with that - you just get used to it. Others hear only sound that travels by air, while we hear a mixture of air/body sound conduction.
Most of us have come to terms with our own looks just because there's so many mirrors around. Recording does the same for your relationship with your voice.

Still, mirrors and recordings cannot give you a true reflection of your soul - that's where it gets really interesting. Several days away from distractions (people, TV, Mandolin Cafe), alone with yourself, can do that if you dare. If you survive that, your voice is a piece of cake.

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

From *Bertram* - _"..Most of us have come to terms with our own looks..."_. Oh !, i did that years ago,but i soon got used to wiping the smooch marks off the mirrors, :Laughing: 
                                                      Ivan :Chicken:

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## Paul Kotapish

> Lack of originality , lack of authenticity.


You may be right, Jeff, but for folks playing traditional music, originality is necessarily what they are going for. Part of the traditional approach is learning the stylistic details from the old masters. In fiddle music, that means studying the bowing patterns and the details of the left-hand fingering, ornaments, specifics of regional intonation, tone generation, and so forth. If you want to learn to play Round Peak style fiddle, your priorities are going to be way different from those of a classical or jazz violinist. 

Same deal with any instrument--or vocal style.

Those stylistic details are just affectations or some kind of phony applique. They are part and parcel of the tradition, and learning to emulate the details of a the style is a critical step in learning any tradition--whether it means learning to play that quarter tone right between G# and A in certain A modal tunes or singing in a high, lonesome, and perhaps nasal-sounding tone.

Authenticity is a different can of worms, but singing in a traditional style is certainly no indication of lack of authenticity. 

Is Del McCoury unoriginal? Perhaps. Is he inauthentic? You might have a fight on your hands over that.

What about Iris Dement? I'd argue that she's both original and authentic by any measure.

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## Ivan Kelsall

From *Paul K.* -_ " What about Iris Dement ?...."_.Yes,what about Iris Dement indeed !. I think she's terrific & it's partially because of her 'accent' that i like her so much. Born in _Arizona_,re-located to _California_ & then to _Kansas_ - so where does her 'accent' originate or is it an amalgam of 'wherever' ?.
   Re.Del McCoury - When you hear him speak,he speaks as though he was just singing 'slower',the same 'accent' is still there.So unless Del's 'putting it on' when he's speaking,for me he's 100 % authentic,
                                                                                                    Ivan :Wink:

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## Wolfboy

Tom Paley of the New Lost City Ramblers addressed some of these issues back in 1961 in the liner notes to _The New Lost City Ramblers Volume 3_:

"One of the problems faced by northern urban folksingers who are attempting to perform the music of the rural south with verisimilitude is the question of how close they ought to stick to their models. There is always a temptation to learn everything note for note and inflection for inflection from old recordings, but this leads down a complete blind alley from any artistic standpoint. On the other hand, if one merely learns the words and melodies and lets his own inclinations and background take over at that point, he cannot expect to achieve an authentic quality unless he is steeped in the sound he wishes to reproduce.

"We have tried to get around this problem by listening to enormous amounts of old-timey music in order to be able to sound authentic without note for note copying. At that, we sometimes find ourselves listening repeatedly to certain passages to learn some lick on one of the instruments or a particular vocal harmony.

"Closely related is the problem of regional accents. A New York accent doesn't sound right on Appalachian songs, and yet it seems that one ought not to copy the southern accent quite consciously. At least I always feel a little phoney when I put on a very obvious accent. Actually, a little bit of southern accent has rubbed off on us, and I believe that now, without sounding contrived our accents are not glaringly out of place."

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## Cullowheekid

I'm a lead singer in a BG band so this topic is interesting to me. I'm from the South so the accent is real. I find when choosing a key for a song, I usually go with the key that will push my voice into its upper register. I like the traditional "high lonesome" sound which seems to add a power and intensity to the music. The recent trend of top 40 style country singing in BG makes me cringe. Seems like someone in Nashville figured out BG can sell after the success of Ol Brother Were Art Thou. I think one reason for the "high lonesome", evolved from the fact that early old time mountain music singers did'nt have the benefit of a PA system and there voice needed to cut through. We do an outside Sunday morning show during the Summer and it is un miced. I know for a fact, if I sang in a lower register, people in the back would'nt be able to here the vocals. The audience can usually tell if you are for real or some kind of caricature. Eric

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## Paul Kotapish

Nice quote from Mr. Paley, Robin. That does sum up the issue pretty neatly, and the NLCR lads certainly worked as hard as anyone to find the right balance between emulating their heroes and finding their own voices.

(DIGRESSION ALERT) As an aside, I once rode a Greyhound bus from Oregon as far as Chicago with Tom Paley. He was heading back east after a week of teaching at the Festival of American Fiddle Tunes up in Washington and we chatted for the better part of two days. Boy was he ever full of interesting ideas about music, instruments, and photography. He was on the bus because he didn't ever fly with his instruments, and as he was living in England at the time, he kept two separate sets--one for Europe and one for the U.S.  I was riding the bus because I was broke.

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## barney 59

It's corn liquor pure and simple---take a big slug of moonshine out of a mason jar and you will extend your vocal range at least two octaves sharp and will lose at least an equal amount of range on the lower end . Another slug  produces the "lonesome" sound that everyone talks about.

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## AlanN

Well, there's High and Lonesome, and then there's just High. Was listening to CG Return Engagement, there's a number on there penned by the mando picker Norman Wright called Ain't It Funny. Norman sings it high. Fine tune.

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## John Kasley

This is not limited to traditional music of the southern Appalachians and bluegrass. Listen to traditional Cajun singers and you'll hear plenty of high pitched, plaintive singing.

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## CES

> How true this Lady was saying, I love this style now
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSI-j...eature=related


Thanks for introducing me to Ms. Laprelle...got lost in youtube for a while, esp with her vocal/clawhammer vids...very nice!

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## CES

> It's corn liquor pure and simple---take a big slug of moonshine out of a mason jar and you will extend your vocal range at least two octaves sharp and will lose at least an equal amount of range on the lower end . Another slug  produces the "lonesome" sound that everyone talks about.


Amen, brother, amen!

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## poymando

Good bluegrass singing is not nasal. It is also a misunderstanding to think that good bluegrass singing needs to be high pitched.

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## Ivan Kelsall

*Paul -* It was nice to read you reminiscences re.Tom Paley. I had the pleasure of hearing him play & talking to him over here 
many times in the past - a true gent.!,
                                                    Ivan

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## ralph johansson

> Good bluegrass singing is not nasal. It is also a misunderstanding to think that good bluegrass singing needs to be high pitched.



As I pointed out before, bluegrass male lead is ususally sung in a normal baritone range,
omitting perhaps the less practical lower fifth (G to d). And tenors are rarely true tenors by classical standards.

So what exactly does high pitched mean in this context?

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## Fretbear

I struggled for years to try and sing bluegrass with any degree of proficiency, even though I could manage to sing folk and blues fairly well. I finally realized that to match my vocal range and be able to access the (almost indispensable) G position, that I had to tune my guitar down a full step and increase the string gauges to make up the difference. I can now deliver "You Don't Know My Mind", "Teardrops In My Eyes" etc., even if the banjo player has to use his D positions and a capo to get to the F. 
Low(er) and lonesome trumps high(er) and strained every time.

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## farmerjones

If John Hartford's explanation isn't 100%, it should be. 
I think everybody has a mental model they want to sound like. Mix that with what God gave you and that's it. Personally, im focused on ringing that harmony, so the rest sort of, i dunno? If i hold tight to the Blues soul notion of Bluegrass, i'm hoping that nasally thang stays away. But do Frauline while thinking of Jimmy Martin and you're gonna be th'whangin' awayee.  :Smile:

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## Paul Kotapish

Nasal, schmazel.

For some real high-and-lonesome sounds, try singing from your throat:

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## Bertram Henze

> try singing from your throat


Mongolian resonance singing is the human version of a didgeridoo.

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## Mandolin-Tele

> Thanks for introducing me to Ms. Laprelle...got lost in youtube for a while, esp with her vocal/clawhammer vids...very nice!


Check out the movie Songcatcher 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyxE4rDEb6M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bk5M...eature=related

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## tiltman

I forget where I heard this...

Bluegrass = music from the heart, sung thru the nose!

(that's why it sounds nasal)

Kirk

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## Lukas J

Popeye at 3:00 in!  :Smile:

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## JeffD

> I'm a lead singer in a BG band so this topic is interesting to me. I'm from the South so the accent is real. I find when choosing a key for a song, I usually go with the key that will push my voice into its upper register.


That just gives you an edge in singing that kind of music.




> The audience can usually tell if you are for real or some kind of caricature. Eric


 There is nothing in between?

Is there no authentic way to play music from somewhere outside of home?

I would hate to be limited to the music indicated by my genetic inheritance, or the music that is predominant in the culture of the region where I grew up.

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## Eddie Sheehy

You might as well ask: "Why the lisp in Barcelona?"

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## JeffD

> You might as well ask: "Why the lisp in Barcelona?"


Oh, thats easy. http://spanish.about.com/cs/qa/a/q_lisp.htm  :Smile:

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## cobraman428

The nasal sound is a result of the lack of proper vocal training. Nasal singing is usually the result of people who try and sing that CANT or that shouldn't be singing. Unfortunately, bluegrass music tends to be the victim of people who cant sing but try. 
I would say Hank Williams Sr. sang somewhat nasaly but was able to pull it off.

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## Cullowheekid

Luckily, I grew up in an area that is culturally diverse and home to some great music. Blues,Bluegrass,Oldtime,R&R.... so I'm not stuck playing any one kind of music. As far as the caricature part, you can be from the South and still play up or ignore the "hillbilly" stereotype. I think that's why Bill Monroe wore suits even though he sang high lonesome.

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## JeffD

> The nasal sound is a result of the lack of proper vocal training. Nasal singing is usually the result of people who try and sing that CANT or that shouldn't be singing. Unfortunately, bluegrass music tends to be the victim of people who cant sing but try. .


More than a few people have had some real success singing "improperly". Could they afford the pay cut to sing it right?   :Smile:

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## Eddie Sheehy

When Joni Mitchell sang her tunes it was an 'acquired' taste' so to speak, but Matthews Southern Comfort butchered Woodstock with their middle-of-the-road pop singing... Vive la difference...

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## allenhopkins

> The nasal sound is a result of the lack of proper vocal training. Nasal singing is usually the result of people who try and sing that CANT or that shouldn't be singing. Unfortunately, bluegrass music tends to be the victim of people who cant sing but try...


One person's "improper" style is another's "authentic" style.  I haven't the self-confidence (or _chutzpah_) to tell anyone that he/she should or shouldn't be singing.  A combination of regional accent and striving for strong projection can account for a lot of the distinctive "bluegrass sound."  People who don't naturally sing in that manner, need to be careful about adopting an unfamiliar style or accent in order to sing a specific musical genre, and that goes for bluegrass, Irish, English, blues, opera, or whatever.  British blues singers sounding "black," Celtic-music groups from Iowa sounding "Irish," bluegrass bands from Queens imitating Jimmy Martin -- it's all around.

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## MikeEdgerton

> The nasal sound is a result of the lack of proper vocal training. Nasal singing is usually the result of people who try and sing that CANT or that shouldn't be singing. Unfortunately, bluegrass music tends to be the victim of people who cant sing but try. 
> I would say Hank Williams Sr. sang somewhat nasaly but was able to pull it off.


OK, that's really funny. It's actually pretty hysterical.

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## Paul Kotapish

> The nasal sound is a result of the lack of proper vocal training. Nasal singing is usually the result of people who try and sing that CANT or that shouldn't be singing.


I reckon most of the singers I really like (and that includes a lot of bluegrassers, rockers, and Bob Dylan, Bub) fit into this category of can't-and-shouldn't sing. Thank goodness they didn't pay any attention to the rules.

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## Mike Bunting

I wonder who the "proper" police are.

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## Eddie Sheehy

Bob Dylan, John Prine, Bill Monroe, Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell, Ewan McColl, Shane McGowan, Marianne Faithful... the list of lousy singers who should have been banned from recording just goes on and on... Oh why couldn't Mario Lanza have played the mandolin?

Officer Krupke, Proper Police.

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## cobraman428

Everyone has their own list of who should have been banned

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## JonZ

Quit trolling!

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## MikeEdgerton

> Everyone has their own list of who should have been banned


Amazingly enough I don't. Call me small-minded.

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## brunello97

> Amazingly enough I don't. Call me small-minded.


 :Smile:

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## Chris "Bucket" Thomas

> The nasal sound is a result of the lack of proper vocal training.


Please define proper.  That sounds like a matter of taste.  I can think of plenty of well educated & sophistacted folks in music that lack soul, feeling & depth.

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## JeffD

There hasn't been a proper country singer since Buell Kazee.

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## Bertram Henze

Knowing I'll get beaten for it, I'll make an attempt to classify four ways of improper singing:

1 - Burnout: singing outside your own anatomic parameters (to high, too low, too loud)
2 - Fake personality: pathetically and obviously trying to sing like somebody else instead of like yourself
3 - Atonal terrorism: singing without intonation
4 - Wrong party: singing out of genre

But my major point is that none of the above types are in any way special to Bluegrass. All are also found in ITM, Pop, Rock, Blues, Jazz (probably hardest to survive in for type 3), Classical...

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## AlanN

Bob Dorough comes to mind on Blue Xmas. I love that guy.

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## almeriastrings

> You might as well ask: "Why the lisp in Barcelona?"


They don't lisp around here! 

But then, they're rural folks...the ones with the lisp are city folks  :Grin:

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## Jim MacDaniel

> Why do some bluegrassers...using with that kind of nasal voice? I noticed this at the local bluegrass jam I am able to go to. Is it trying to keep in the tradition of Bill Monroe and others from the Appalachian area?...


I think the simply answer to your question is yes, but I think the real question is why they sang nasally in the first place. My theory is allergies -- there is a great diversity of trees and plantlife growing all over Appalachia, so they probably sang that way due to being perpetually congested. 

This in turn raises another question: was Bill Monroe, father of Bluegrass music, allergic to Bluegrass _grass_?

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## Eddie Sheehy

More importantly, Is Bluegrass grass blue?

"But then, they're rural folks...the ones with the lisp are city folks"
I thought Barcelona was a city...

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## Cindy

I tried nasal singing to push my range and volume and boy did I get a sinus headache. Must be a better way.

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## Steve Ostrander

What really offends me is today's "Country" music, which is nothing more than rock music sung with a southern accent.

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## John Ritchhart

I think Maynard Holbrooke does it in a natural way. This is how it sounds in North Carolina.





Added by Moderator:
Those of you that can't get to this video because Youtube has embedding disabled for this video can go to *this* link.

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## Mike Bunting

> What really offends me is today's "Country" music, which is nothing more than rock music sung with a southern accent.


You got that right.

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## Ben Milne

I thought that's just how people sounded in the olden days... :Laughing:

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## John Kasley

For those interested in diving a little deeper into this subject, Alan Lomax developed a theory linking singing styles of folk singers (and bluegrass is based on folk music of  a certain geographic area) and cultural background of those signers...He called it cantometrics. If you google "cantometrics" be prepared for some heavy reading but you might find it interesting as well.

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## Bertram Henze

> I think Maynard Holbrooke does it in a natural way.





> I thought that's just how people sounded in the olden days...


It is very common with elderly people to have high, hoarse voices. This style might go well with the cliche of Bluegrass being old folks' music (the "geriatric genre"?  :Grin: )

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## Michael Ramsey

I figured it out!  Ralph and Carter Stanley, Bill Monroe, Roscoe Holcombe, The Carter Family, Jimmy Rogers and Tiny Tim were all just born in the wrong place!

In actuality, everybody singing nasal are just trying to emulate the accent that comes from living in the mountains of KY, TN, VA, NC, upstate SC and GA.

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## allenhopkins

Hey, I was just listening to an opera on the radio.  Why all that vibrato?

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## Paul Kotapish

The notion that the so-called nasal characteristics of traditional mountain singing styles is a phony affectation is--if you'll pardon the expression--hogwash. 

Musical traditions have specific tonal characteristics and intonation (tuning) characteristics that are intrinsic to that music, and anyone who is attempting to actually carry on the tradition--as opposed to doing an impression or adaptation or new interpretation--learns and masters those characteristics as a matter of respect and accuracy. 

If you are trying to sing or play music from the mountains of North Carolina--or from the bayous of Louisiana or from Cape Breton Island or froim the Mississippi Delta or from virtually any area with a strong traditional music scene--with any degree of accuracy with respect to the tradition, you are going to make some sounds and hit some notes that may sound wrong or out of tune to anyone not deeply versed in the tradition. 

I knew a symphony violinist who like to make fun of the local fiddlers by playing "Devil's Dream" or "Soldier's Joy" at about 160 BPM and then sniffing that it was childsplay. But he didn't have a clue about any of the components that would make that tune actual music within the idiom from which it was derived, and his playing--though technically impressive--was a joke within the context of the tradition.

And the so-called nasal aspect of singing that seems to be derided here is intrinsic to and highly valued in a number of other traditions around the globe, too, as are many other vocal techniques that don't fit within the modern sense of what makes for  good singing. To my ear, Bulgarian polyphany is as gorgeous as it gets, and that music would be wrong without the distinctive tonal characteristics that many would dismiss as "nasal."

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## Cullowheekid

My New Years Resolution is to answer every post with "because the world is round."

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## mrmando

> The notion that the so-called nasal characteristics of traditional mountain singing styles is a phony affectation is--if you'll pardon the expression--hogwash.


Yeah, if you wanna hear phony, try this. I mean, I think the guy's an amazing singer, but he shouldn't have cut this song: 

Anyway, finding a particular resonance/overtone series that will carry unamplified over the banjos and fiddles and clogs at 2 a.m. is the explanation that makes the most sense to me. Plus, just as many old-time and bluegrass tunes have Old World roots, so too could the singing styles. _Sean nos,_ Georgian polyphony, Balkan choirs, it's all been done before.

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## ash89

almost anyone that is "untrained" as a singer will sound nasal-ly and throaty.

it takes training to sing from the diaphram.

not that one is better or worse..just a physical fact.

thats why, say, jim nabors sounded weird singing blue grass or country.
somehow, the likes of andy griffiths and burl ives could sound right

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## Geordie

"He sang through his nose so bad, I said, 'Everybody's going to think we _all_ sing through the nose.'"

   -Pop Stoneman on Henry Whittier's hit version of "The Wreck of Old '97", released in 1924.

So it seems that the habit of nasal singing was not as widespread as it appears.

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## stratman62

"This singing through our nose has got us wanted by the man"
Waylon Jennings

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## JonZ

Some folks take it too far in the other direction...


But talk about overtones!

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## Bertram Henze

> I knew a symphony violinist who like to make fun of the local fiddlers by playing "Devil's Dream" or "Soldier's Joy" at about 160 BPM and then sniffing that it was childsplay. But he didn't have a clue about any of the components that would make that tune actual music within the idiom from which it was derived, and his playing--though technically impressive--was a joke within the context of the tradition.


Worse than one classical violinist in a session is three classical violinists in a session - they turned up at one of our sessions a few times. They played strictly from sheet music and sounded like a string quartet with Parkinson. They were suffered grimly and silently.
If someone sneers at childsplay I'd tell him I feel sorry for him because he's obviously lost an essential ability to have fun.

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## ralph johansson

> This is not meant as criticism, just don't understand it: Why do some bluegrassers, not from the Southeast necessarily, sing with that kind of nasal voice? I noticed this at the local bluegrass jam I am able to go to. Is it trying to keep in the tradition of Bill Monroe and others from the Appalachian area? Even Chris Thile and Michael Davies sing that way on their recent CD. When I listen to bluegrass radio I don't necessarily hear all the modern musicians singing that way. Some sing with their natural voices. What am I missing here?



I am still not sure what tis discussion is about. What exactly is "nasal"? I hear no nasality in Thile's singing, and Daves' singing is extremely forced and strained. They are poor singers in very different ways.

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## Bertram Henze

> What exactly is "nasal"?


Try singing an open "aaaa" vovel. Then, while doing it, move your tongue up until it touches the ceiling of your mouth. The "aaaa" has now become "nnnngggg", resulting in less output. Often, singers who try to sing high automatically do this as a side effect.
This test may be further enhanced by banging on your thumb with a hammer  :Wink:

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...They are poor singers in very different ways.


Don't sugar-coat it here Ralph, tell us how you really feel.  :Cool:

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## Mike Bunting

> Don't sugar-coat it here Ralph, tell us how you really feel.


The truth is the truth.

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## MikeEdgerton

This is a rough crowd. Somebody ought to ask Willie how these things work out.

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## mikeyes

I'm surprized no one has mentioned this, but the primary reason that the Monroe bros sang that way is that they learned to sing in church.  This was a common way to learn to sing for a lot of artists: Elvis, Jerry Lee, every R&B singer, etc. are good examples.  In the case of a lot of early country singers they learned to sing shape notes at Bible camps and small churches.  If you have ever sung shape notes you will have learned to sing in the front of your head (i.e. "nasally") which produces an eery and powerful sound, especially in large groups.

You can still sing well with diaphragmatic support, volume and power, you just sing from a different part of the head.  Any good voice teacher will tell you that.  They may not appreciate the sound, but they are focused on a certain style and their ears are not attuned to the micro-intonations and changes found in most folk music around the world.  

There are good bluegrass singers and poor ones, mostly poor ones, and the good ones are incredible to listen to.  It is a matter of knowing the music and finding the right voice.  It really helps to have been born into the culture and gone to church from birth to adult learning the church music, too.  Why do you think gospel is so important to bluegrass?  It's not the banjo content.

----------


## Schlegel

Some of these judgments I hear pronounced are like looking at a Cubist painting and going "Well, he's not a very good Impressionist at all!"

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## poymando

> Some of these judgments I hear pronounced are like looking at a Cubist painting and going "Well, he's not a very good Impressionist at all!"


+1...
Mr. Keyes brings up an interesting point regarding the importance of the gospel tradition to early bluegrass singers. I'm curious what kind of shape note singing he is referring to though. 
For what it is worth, I would be of the opinion that gospel singing had more of an impact on first generation bluegrass musicians in terms of style and repertoire than it did on their vocal technique. 
I was speaking recently with a person who had been an eight year veteran of one of the great, first generation bluegrass bands. Being very interested in the learning/teaching process of professional musicians, I asked this person what had been the best lesson that they had learned during their time with the band. Without hesitation, this person said that the band leader taught them how not to sing through the nose. Keep in mind that the bandleader being referenced is someone that some of the posters here might consider to be a "nasal" singer.

----------


## Marty Henrickson

> For what it is worth, I would be of the opinion that gospel singing had more of an impact on first generation bluegrass musicians in terms of style and repertoire than it did on their vocal technique.


I disagree.  Have you read the Bill Monroe biography, _Can't You Hear Me Callin'_, or the Ralph Stanley autobiography, _Man of Constant Sorrow_?  They emphasize the importance of gospel music in Monroe and Stanley's style.

----------


## Marty Henrickson

> For what it is worth, I would be of the opinion that gospel singing had more of an impact on first generation bluegrass musicians in terms of style and repertoire than it did on their vocal technique.


I disagree.  Have you read the Bill Monroe biography, _Can't You Hear Me Callin'_, or the Ralph Stanley autobiography, _Man of Constant Sorrow_?  They emphasize the importance of gospel music in Monroe and Stanley's style.

----------


## poymando

> I disagree.  Have you read the Bill Monroe biography, _Can't You Hear Me Callin'_, or the Ralph Stanley autobiography, _Man of Constant Sorrow_?  They emphasize the importance of gospel music in Monroe and Stanley's style.


Take a look at my post again. I would agree that gospel/sacred/hymn tunes did impact _style_ and _repertoire_. I'm not so sure about technique though...

----------


## mikeyes

Shape note singing, Sacred Harp, etc. are all styles of singing that involve a leader and a specific style of singing that is taught to you from childhood if you grew up in the culture.  While you are not given formal voice lessons, "sing from your belly" is often intoned and the expectation is that you will follow the leader's hand motions and sing the song.  Because there is a visual cue from the leader, micro-intonation is inevitable.  In addition the styles of singing in poor white southern music was influenced by older styles not unlike sean nos singing.  They are not the same but a sean nos singer in Connemara recognizes the relationship even though the languages are different. (I've seen this happen.)

Good singing technique is good singing technique.  If you ever get a chance to take a class from Moira Smiley, you will see what I mean.  She teaches technique identical to what any opera singer learns but uses it to sing Balkan, Southern mountain styles, Broadway hits, you name it.

Here she is singing The Dying Californian:

----------


## Geordie

> +1...
> Mr. Keyes brings up an interesting point regarding the importance of the gospel tradition to early bluegrass singers. I'm curious what kind of shape note singing he is referring to though.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_note

----------


## poymando

> Shape note singing, Sacred Harp, etc. are all styles of singing that involve a leader and a specific style of singing that is taught to you from childhood if you grew up in the culture.  While you are not given formal voice lessons, "sing from your belly" is often intoned and the expectation is that you will follow the leader's hand motions and sing the song.  Because there is a visual cue from the leader, micro-intonation is inevitable.


A couple of thoughts...
Perhaps this perception of Bluegrass singing being nasal has its root in long held cultural misunderstandings of the south as well as class differences...
Sacred Harp/4 shape note/FaSoLa is beautiful, powerful music but I would argue that this style has not had much influence on Bluegrass singers. I'm of the opinion that the 7 shape system from Vaughn, Stamps Baxter etc was practiced by more bluegrass singers than FaSoLa/Sacred Harp.
Visual cues from the leader having an impact on micro-intonation? I don't buy it...Nor do I totally get on board with Celtic influence on these singing styles. Shape note music is distinctly American. 
Moira Smiley sounds like a good singer. Kudos to her for having the operatic chops and an ability to cross over so many disparate styles. One interesting point of difference in technique (I think) between opera trained singers and bluegrass singers is the ability of the former to project successfully within a large space like Carnegie Hall. There have been some powerful bluegrass singers but I don't think that any of them would be up to the task of competing with a good opera singer in terms of sheer power and volume.

----------


## mrmando

> Sacred Harp/4 shape note/FaSoLa is beautiful, powerful music but I would argue that this style has not had much influence on Bluegrass singers. I'm of the opinion that the 7 shape system from Vaughn, Stamps Baxter etc was practiced by more bluegrass singers than FaSoLa/Sacred Harp.


That's a difference in notation and arrangement, but is it also a difference in vocal placement? The connection between shape-note singing and bluegrass singing would have to do with placing the voice in the "mask" (between the eyebrows and the nose) rather than in the soft palate. That seems to be what mikeyes is arguing. Don't 7-shape and Sacred Harp have that idea of mask-placement in common? 

Ron Thomason would be a good person to ask about this sort of stuff, methinks.

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## Tom Wright

There's nasal and then there's Chinese opera:

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## poymando

> That's a difference in notation and arrangement, but is it also a difference in vocal placement? The connection between shape-note singing and bluegrass singing would have to do with placing the voice in the "mask" (between the eyebrows and the nose) rather than in the soft palate. That seems to be what mikeyes is arguing. Don't 7-shape and Sacred Harp have that idea of mask-placement in common?


I believe (need to do a bit more poking around to have a firm opinion) that vocal technique was not a part of the traditional singing school. Reading and leading (and selling books) were more important than vocal training and I think it is safe to say that there was an assumption that a singer would arrive with some basic singing skills. As to the concept of "mask" voice placement, I'm not sure if the 4 and 7 shapes shared that. I think of them as being very different stylistically.

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## mrmando

I don't hear a lot of "nose" in most bluegrass singing, but I do hear forward placement from just about everybody.

I recently acquired the Monroe _Live at Mechanics Hall_ CD from Acoustic Disc. It's a bit uneven ("Brad" Keith is brilliant, but Joe Stuart was no Kenny Baker), but the worst bits are the two songs sung by Bill's daughter, Melissa, who is actually the opposite of nasal: she's placed right down on her vocal cords and sounds like she's trying to give herself nodes.

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## JonZ

This discussion reminds me of something I heard at a Gypsy jazz concert the other night. The guitarist was talking about the guitars, and how poor they were for anything other than sounding like Django. He compared the tone to a low-quality banjo. Of course the instruments were disigned for the technical requirements of the time to allow an acoustic guitar to cut through the mix.

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## ralph johansson

> Try singing an open "aaaa" vovel. Then, while doing it, move your tongue up until it touches the ceiling of your mouth. The "aaaa" has now become "nnnngggg", resulting in less output. Often, singers who try to sing high automatically do this as a side effect.
> This test may be further enhanced by banging on your thumb with a hammer


My question was really rhetoric. E.g., Lester Flatt is given as an example of non-nasal singing. I don't hear it. But he certainly sang slightly lower leads than many other BG singers.

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## ralph johansson

> Don't sugar-coat it here Ralph, tell us how you really feel.


Thanks for your encouragement. What I really meant to say was that the singing, at least that of Daves, is plain horrible.

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## mrmando

Michael Daves is from another planet! I understand his voice isn't for everyone, but that boy puts all he's got into his singing, and I like it just fine. 

I can't stand Rickie Lee Jones or Iris Dement. But I like Blind Willie Johnson. Go figure.

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## Bertram Henze

> Michael Daves is from another planet! I understand his voice isn't for everyone, but that boy puts all he's got into his singing, and I like it just fine.


There's many doing that style. I knew one who could actually sob while singing this way. And virtually everybody can do it - just hide this on stage:

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## BradKlein

Most of the time, I truly resent the (thankfully small amount) of 'trolling' that I find on the Cafe.  But this thread was kind of a perfect storm for trollish put downs, and I do find it entertaining watching the interplay between folks making a sincere effort and the bomb throwers (you know who you are... and aren't).  :Wink:

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## JonZ

Ah, the old calling-people-trolls troll!

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## mikeyes

> I don't hear a lot of "nose" in most bluegrass singing, but I do hear forward placement from just about everybody.
> 
> I recently acquired the Monroe _Live at Mechanics Hall_ CD from Acoustic Disc. It's a bit uneven ("Brad" Keith is brilliant, but Joe Stuart was no Kenny Baker), but the worst bits are the two songs sung by Bill's daughter, Melissa, who is actually the opposite of nasal: she's placed right down on her vocal cords and sounds like she's trying to give herself nodes.


I was at that concert, I was a student at Holy Cross College at the time, and I was unaware who Melissa was.  I did remark that she was an awful singer, however.  She seemed to be trying to become a typical country singer of the day and not a bluegrass singer.

As for the church influence on singing, most of the early singers talk about how they sang in church and went to singing schools.  There are several styles of shape note singing and Sacred Harp is probably the most common one.  Sacred Harp singing takes place outside of the church in order to form the singing square noted above.  The Monroes, The Stanleys, Doyle Lawson, etc. sang in church.  They are all talented singers who probably have/had basic technique but not to operatic standards.  You could certainly hear Bill Monroe from a distance.  No one said that any of the bluegrass singers outside of Mac Wiseman ever had formal training, but they did learn to sing in singing schools and their secular singing took on some of the qualities of church singing the way Elvis, Ray Charles, Queen Latifa, etc. do/did.  Singing schools encouraged the forward style of singing as did the other music in the early BG pioneers culture.  Bluegrass music is about song and harmony with tunes as a sideline.  Tunes are what captured the later fans of the music, especially banjo music, but if you take a 100 albums made before 1970, the vast majority of cuts are songs, many of them gospel music.

Lester Flatt sang gospel too.  He was a church going person while growing up in Sparta, TN and it shows in the gospel quartets that the Flatt and Scruggs show did.

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## Bertram Henze

> ...this thread was kind of a perfect storm for trollish put downs...


No wonder. After all, the human voice is like no other medium the carrier of personality, in turn the biggest source of conflicts. It all comes naturally.

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## groove-in

While reading this post labeled "nasal singing", It is my oppinion that most of the examples offered, are NOT what I would consider true "nasal singing". There are examples of TRUE "nasal singing" such as a Bluegrass singer from Kentucky, "Dean Osborne".  In my observation, a true "nasal singer" could record a complete album with their lips sutured together. In my travels as a musician for 47 years I have seen and heard these people. Perhaps, they aren't "REAL" tenor singers. Just searchin' for a way to hit the notes.

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