# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Unusual mandocello/octave/guitar

## Graham McDonald

Famed citternista Joseph Sobol has recently picked up an unusual instrument from the ebay. The body is reminiscent of some 20's New York built flat mandolins, but with a guitar scale neck and set up as a guitar. Joseph notes that the hardware is newer than the instrument would appear to be, and he had thought it may have originally had mandolin tuners, but there is no sign of older (plugged) holes in the head. The trefoil head shape suggests German origin? The original listing is here, but it would seem the seller didn't know anything about it either. Perhaps it is just an odd guitar.

Ideas welcomed

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## Jim Garber

Interesting... it sort of looks like something I have seen before in mandolin form (more or less). May be Raphael Ciani or Favilla Brothers. I have to check my files.

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## wwwilkie

Wow, what an incredibly beautiful instrument.  Love the harpoon headstock.

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## Tavy

Wow, what a find.  Be interesting to know it's history for sure.  Either way Joseph Sobol's an amazing player, it'll be interesting to see what he does with it!

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## usqebach

Do you think Joseph is going to convert that "back" to an octave?

Would love to hear it!

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## pfox14

The neck appears too narrow for a guitar and does NOT appear to have any taper to it. Very unusual. I would tend to believe it did not start out as a guitar.

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## Graham McDonald

Joseph says the plan is for it to be converted into something not a guitar  :Smile:  but he might poke his head in here and tell us himself. I suspect it might have been someone's rather odd idea of a long scale tenor guitar originally. Paul's comment about neck width and taper re-enforces that, as well that the guitar tuners are a bit too big for the slots. An interesting mystery!

cheers

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## eadg145

I don't know what it is or where it came from, but I *love* the way it looks.  I'd be very interested to hear what it sounds like with that geometry.

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## Jayyj

What about six string tenor, with two of the courses in pairs?

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## jdsobol

Jayji--that's an excellent idea. Might just try that.
Joseph

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## jdsobol

Jim--my original idea was to convert it "back" to a mandocello. Now that it seems it was never actually an 8-string to start with, I am re-thinking the project a bit. But probably will still go 8, or maybe 7 with a single low string.
Joseph

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## goaty76

Is it original as a 6 string guitar?  What's the width at the nut?  I remember it when it was on Ebay and thought it was interesting.

Phil

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## Jim Garber

> What about six string tenor, with two of the courses in pairs?


Sort of like Eddie Peabody's *banjoline*.

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## jdsobol

> Is it original as a 6 string guitar?  What's the width at the nut?  I remember it when it was on Ebay and thought it was interesting.
> 
> Phil


Nut width is 1 & 5/16". Entirely too narrow for a guitar. All the relevant hardware (tuners, nut, bridge, and tailpiece) look to have been replaced. But as far as I or my woodworker friends I've shown it to can tell there were never any extra post-holes in the headstock to handle 8 strings. So who knows?
Joseph

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## goaty76

It could have originally been a 4 string tenor type guitar. Then later on another 2 holes added. 

Phil

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## Martin Jonas

Very interesting.  Looks American to me -- the most likely alternative being German and it doesn't quite look right for that (except for the slotted headstock).  _Wappenform_ German mandolins are more squat than that.

I would also think that it started life as a four-string.  The way the headstock slots are slanted, the strings from the two top tuners are wrapped awkwardly around the central divider and surely that wouldn't have been designed like that.  These seem to be later additions to convert from four to six strings.

The original Ebay listing gives a scale length of 24.5", which is rather long for a tenor guitar (or "tenor lute", which I think is what Gibson called the mandola-bodied ones).  If it was originally a six-string after all, could it have been a three-course Greek bouzouki, maybe a custom build by an American mandolin luthier for a Greek immigrant?

Martin

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## Jim Garber

The body does resemble Ciani instruments but the headstock is pretty unique.

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## jdsobol

> The body does resemble Ciani instruments but the headstock is pretty unique.


Cool! Ciani is one of the makers I'd thought of. Also DeLuccia brothers, Philadelphia.
Joseph

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## Jake Wildwood

I'd like to chime in with the 6-string tenor idea, here... that was real popular with various ethnic-music groups in the teens/20s/30s. You can see a number of modded or factory-ordered 6-string tenor Nationals in the old Brozman Nat'l book... not to mention there are examples of Regal, Harmony, and Kay origin that pop up now and then on eBay as curiosities.

There are a number of genres that they'd do well in that were variously popular in circles at the time... Cuban, Puerto Rican, sometimes Filipino, tamburitza music, etc...

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## jdsobol

> I'd like to chime in with the 6-string tenor idea, here... that was real popular with various ethnic-music groups in the teens/20s/30s. You can see a number of modded or factory-ordered 6-string tenor Nationals in the old Brozman Nat'l book... not to mention there are examples of Regal, Harmony, and Kay origin that pop up now and then on eBay as curiosities.
> 
> There are a number of genres that they'd do well in that were variously popular in circles at the time... Cuban, Puerto Rican, sometimes Filipino, tamburitza music, etc...


Jake--interesting notion. Do you know how a 6-string tenor might have been strung and tuned? Would it have two double-courses and two singles?
Joseph

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## Jim Garber

> Jake--interesting notion. Do you know how a 6-string tenor might have been strung and tuned? Would it have two double-courses and two singles?


See my *post above*. From that entry -- Peabody played a plectrum banjo but the principal would be similar:




> The Banjoline has six strings arranged in four courses and it has a scale length similar to that of a plectrum banjo. The two lowest courses consist of pairs of two strings and the two highest courses consist of two single strings. The Banjoline was intended to be tuned like a plectrum banjo (from low to high, CGBD). The strings were also described as octave base, unison third, single, second and first.
> The pair of strings on the lowest course consists of one low C and another C an octave above it. The strings in the next highest course are tuned to the same G. The next two courses consist of single strings tuned to B and D. This makes for a tuning of CcGGBD.

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## Jacob

A three-course bouzouki or saz?

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## jdsobol

> See my *post above*. From that entry -- Peabody played a plectrum banjo but the principal would be similar:


I like that idea a lot, and just might try it, though I would probably tune it GDAD.

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## jdsobol

> Nut width is 1 & 5/16". Entirely too narrow for a guitar. All the relevant hardware (tuners, nut, bridge, and tailpiece) look to have been replaced. But as far as I or my woodworker friends I've shown it to can tell there were never any extra post-holes in the headstock to handle 8 strings. So who knows?
> Joseph


The current plan is to make it a four-course 6-string tuned GDAD, with the two higher courses double and the basses single, reverse of Peabody's banjoline. We've got a nice set of 6-string tuners that fit the original headstock holes snugly, and an 8-string Allen-style tailpiece that can hold a number of different combinations. We'll leave room on the nut and bridge in case we want to fill the headstock holes and convert to an 8-string later. Should be ready to test-drive shortly.

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## pfox14

> The current plan is to make it a four-course 6-string tuned GDAD, with the two higher courses double and the basses single, reverse of Peabody's banjoline. We've got a nice set of 6-string tuners that fit the original headstock holes snugly, and an 8-string Allen-style tailpiece that can hold a number of different combinations. We'll leave room on the nut and bridge in case we want to fill the headstock holes and convert to an 8-string later. Should be ready to test-drive shortly.


That makes sense given the narrow non-tapered neck. Should make a very interesting sounding instrument. Good luck

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## mandroid

trying to hit cello pitches would be a bit heavy on the neck because of fat strings.

if the peg head were 8  plugged and re-drilled for 6, the plugs should be evident.

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## jdsobol

> trying to hit cello pitches would be a bit heavy on the neck because of fat strings.
> 
> if the peg head were 8  plugged and re-drilled for 6, the plugs should be evident.


that's the thing--they're not evident--three luthiers have scrutinized it and can't see any marks. So for the time being we're not going to stress that structurally risky headstock by filling and drilling.

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## ollaimh

I saw that during the auction and thought it was beautiful as well.  I suspected someone was thinking of a three course trichordia at the time it was built, and that's what I would do with it now if it sounds ok that way.  that would require only changes to the nut and saddle and not new tuners.  besides I like trichordias on occasion. with that long neck you could get the range anyway

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## jdsobol

Since all the hardware elements--tailpiece, tuners, nut and bridge-- were obviously of a later date, the only way to know would be to find a a good  instrument psychic. Any suggestions?

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## jdsobol

> I like that idea a lot, and just might try it, though I would probably tune it GDAD.


Local mando maker Will Parsons just finished setting up the mystery mando-zouki. The scale length is 25.5. Because I didn't want to mess with the holes in the headstock we had it strung four-course but with the two basses single and the top two double, GDAD. It sounds incredible and it really plays amazingly well. Lots of tunes in this thing. :Laughing: 

I'll try and attach a couple of pics if I can figure out the drill....
Joseph

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## Michael Lewis

Curiosity causes me to ask if it is a 'recent' make, within the past 40 years or so, or is it from the 20s or thereabouts?  Is it possible the neck has been replaced ?  Is the pick guard inlaid?  Can you determine the guard material?  New or old?

Check the binding of the sound hole to see if it is full depth of the top thickness or just half that.  Larson brothers used half the top thickness for the sound hole binding.

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## jdsobol

> Curiosity causes me to ask if it is a 'recent' make, within the past 40 years or so, or is it from the 20s or thereabouts?  Is it possible the neck has been replaced ?  Is the pick guard inlaid?  Can you determine the guard material?  New or old?
> 
> Check the binding of the sound hole to see if it is full depth of the top thickness or just half that.  Larson brothers used half the top thickness for the sound hole binding.


Michael--it's definitely an integral antique build, probably from the teens or 20s at the latest. All the details fit together (apart from the hardware of course). The fingerboard inlay and ebony shelf beneath the ivoroid binding indicates a familiarity with banjo-boom design. The radius of the top, old pickguard and fiddle-back flame maple back and sides with an amber violin varnish--it's all of a piece. Everything but the hardware just reeks of antique (and now I've got a lovely old period engraved set of slot-head guitars tuners on it). And it sounds fabulous--like an old Larson, very firm fundamental and unwavering mid-range chime that sustains forever. With the low string single and tuned down to C it's not as peppy as it was tuned like at first to FCGC. But it still sounds huge.

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## mandroid

N/M   :Redface:   The Cuban Tres,3 unison pairs, came to mind , but its done .

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## jdsobol

I think we may have found a DNA match for the odd 6-string mandocello-ish thing that I got on ebay (and fixed up and sold to Doc Rossi btw). DeLuccia Bros. indeed! Look at the body shape. Also the distinctive purfling with 11 bands of black-white-checkerboard and the center strip of white celluloid--never seen that anywhere but on this mandolin and Doc's new 'cello:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ht_4957wt_1599

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzM0WDEwMjM=/z/Is0AAOxySoJTWqLe/$_57.JPG

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## Jim Garber

For historical and comparative purposes.  I have a few other Deluccia mandolin jpegs I can post later.

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## Jim Garber

So... someone did buy the DeLuccia mandolin. Anyone here?

Here's a thread from 2010: *DeLuccia*

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## jdsobol

> So... someone did buy the DeLuccia mandolin. Anyone here?
> 
> Here's a thread from 2010: *DeLuccia*


Thanks, Jim. Isn't that a beautiful body-shape?

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## Bernie Daniel

> Is it original as a 6 string guitar?  What's the width at the nut?  I remember it when it was on Ebay and thought it was interesting.Phil


If the photos are not misleading it looks to me to be narrower than a standard a guitar and about right for a mandocello? 

edit: Well for some reason I had not seen post #24 -- never mind!

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