# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Standard notation vs tab

## sinebar

I just started playing the mandolin but I have been playing the flute for a few years and I know standard notation pretty good. So should I stick with standard notation and learn to apply it to the mandolin or would it be better to use tab? Tab seems pretty straight forward while applying standard notation is going to have quite a learning curve I can tell.

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## jmcgann

Not as big

as you may think

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## JeffD

I think you will find standard notation on the mandolin will be fairly easy to pick up. Get a beginners violin book or something (I used a beginners banjo book), and you should have little problem. Your background in reading music on the flute will easily move to mandolin.

The main advantage is that with standard notation, you will never be limited to music written for mandolin.

All the fiddle tune repertoire, sheet music for piano, vocal music, even some of your flute music, all the music in the world actually, what ever it is written for, will be yours for the reading. You can rip fun music from anywhere and adapt it to your instrument.

You can always learn tab later if you want. But you will never be sorry you learned to read standard notation on the mandolin.


What was much harder for me in moving from woodwind to mandolin, (clarinet and bassoon in my case) was getting past playing one note at a time melodies. Harmonies, double stops, chords, chord melodies, all of that was really uphill for me.

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## sinebar

> Not as big
> 
> as you may think


Thanks for those links. They were very helpful.

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## sinebar

> I think you will find standard notation on the mandolin will be fairly easy to pick up. Get a beginners violin book or something (I used a beginners banjo book), and you should have little problem. Your background in reading music on the flute will easily move to mandolin.
> 
> The main advantage is that with standard notation, you will never be limited to music written for mandolin.
> 
> All the fiddle tune repertoire, sheet music for piano, vocal music, even some of your flute music, all the music in the world actually, what ever it is written for, will be yours for the reading. You can rip fun music from anywhere and adapt it to your instrument.
> 
> You can always learn tab later if you want. But you will never be sorry you learned to read standard notation on the mandolin.
> 
> 
> What was much harder for me in moving from woodwind to mandolin, (clarinet and bassoon in my case) was getting past playing one note at a time melodies. Harmonies, double stops, chords, chord melodies, all of that was really uphill for me.


Do you or anyone here know of any good beginner mandolin books that emphysize on standard notation?

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## ApK

Vs? Why must you choose one over the other?

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## sinebar

> Vs? #Why must you choose one over the other?


Well I guess I was really just trying find out which is better suited for the mandolin. From what I have read standard notation is better all around but that's just what I have read. Since I already know how to read standard, and it's perfectly fine for mandolin playing then no sense in going down the tab path.

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## mandocrucian

You already read so go with notation.

Niles H

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## mikeyes

While it depends on the type of music you want to play, notation is probably the best way to go because there is more music available in that form than any other. Almost all Irish music and virtually all Old Time music can be found in notation or ABC which is easily transformed to notation. (Jazz, too.)

Bluegrass is usually found in tab form, but since notation is only the bare bones of the music anyway, it could work, just get a Fiddlers Fakebook and see.

Mandolins are so logically laid out that finding the notes is easy.

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## jk245

If you easily want to know the positions of your fingers on the strings then go TAB.

If you want the 'finer' points of the music then go to STANDARD Notation.

However, there is a happy compromise. Many of the TAB books, like those of Mel Bay Publications, have both TAB and STANDARD Notation. The advantage of the combination is that you can see the timing better with one on top of the other (TAB is at the bottom).

There have been many posting on the benefits of each. The STANDARD guys seem to be the l-o-u-d-e-s-t especially those who play classical music. Many have said that they started with TAB but got more out the pieces when they learned STANDARD.

On the other hand, the music in the http://www.mandolincafe.com/tabarc.html Mandolin Tablature Archive at this MandolinCafe are in guess what? TAB!
AND, at the http://www.mandozine.com/music/index.php the Mandozine website are in guess what? TAB!

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## Kirk Pickering

Since you already know how to read music, I 
can't think of any reason to bother with tab.

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## Peter Hackman

> If you easily want to know the positions of your fingers on the strings then go TAB.
> 
> If you want the 'finer' points of the music then go to STANDARD Notation.
> 
> However, there is a happy compromise. Many of the TAB books, like those of Mel Bay Publications, have both TAB and STANDARD Notation. The advantage of the combination is that you can see the timing better with one on top of the other (TAB is at the bottom).
> 
> There have been many posting on the benefits of each. The STANDARD guys seem to be the l-o-u-d-e-s-t especially those who play classical music. Many have said that they started with TAB but got more out the pieces when they learned STANDARD.
> 
> On the other hand, the music in the http://www.mandolincafe.com/tabarc.html Mandolin Tablature Archive at this MandolinCafe are in guess what? TAB!
> AND, at the http://www.mandozine.com/music/index.php the Mandozine website are in guess what? TAB!


Mandozine, like the books mentioned has both standard and tab. The Cafe has chosen the sadistic method of TAB only, which is good for those who like to read and learn a piece in a purely linear fashion. The point with standard is that it displays the structure and direction of a piece in a way TAB never can. It's a fast way of fixing your ideas, and conveying them.

It bears repeating that TABs often are composed in a very mechanical fashion, 
e.g., they often suggest open strings where fretting at the 7th fret would be much better. I think fingering, pick direction, choice of positions is something the player must devise on his own. Perhaps an occasional figure to indicate position, or directions like "play from B chord", could be useful.

I wonder if the ubiquity of mandolin TAB rests on the assumption that mando players, especially in some genres, are, and must remain, ignorant, much as guitar TABs (again in some genres) assume that guitarists must use a capo to play in other keys than G or C.

But, anyway, where's the *learning curve* in something you already know?

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## Stephanie Reiser

I play alot of solo music that I learn from Standard Notation. I have read music since a child on piano, and then on guitar. I've only been playing mandolin for 4 or 5 years, one to two hours a day, so I'm still getting used to the location of the notes up the neck. There are times when learning a new piece when I have to decide on a fingering strategy, and when I finally do I will often tab out that passage to help me find my way. I am getting better at navigating my way around the upper neck, and I am finding myself tabbing things out less and less, but it can be a useful tool for that purpose.

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## AlanN

I like both, notes above tab, such as MZ, Niles' and Grisman's old books maintain. Notes have way of visually showing the flow that TAB does not. It's all good.

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## sinebar

[QUOTE= (Peter Hackman @ Oct. 04 2007, 04:19)]


> But, anyway, where's the *learning curve* in something you already know?


I was refering to learning where the notes are on the mandolin so I could apply the notation.

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## kvk

IMNSHO

Notation =  
Tab =

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## entau

I think you might find the melodic nature of flute music - to be prevelant in mandolin -

I know a couple of flute players - who not only started playing bluegrass and fiddle tunes on flute - but also picked up the mandolin as a second instrument 

so I think it is easier than you might suspect

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## psann

Quote:
On the other hand, the music in the http://www.mandolincafe.com/tabarc.html Mandolin Tablature Archive at this MandolinCafe are in guess what? TAB!
AND, at the http://www.mandozine.com/music/index.php the Mandozine website are in guess what? TAB!

Re the mandozine files - the tabedit files on mandozine toggle from tab to notation or can be read with both seen at the same time. The toggle is an "M" at the lower right of the tabedit reader.

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## ApK

Learn both. #Tab is very useful for quickly learning HOW to play a new tune. #Standard notation is useful for opening a huge volume of written music to you.
If you know both, you can make use of the stuff like mentioned above that has both...the standard notation to teach you the notes and the tab to help you learn where to find those notes on the mando. #Very useful for learning. #I need to to practice that a lot myself.

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## JeffD

> Do you or anyone here know of any good beginner mandolin books that emphysize on standard notation?


There are probably a few. But I found it just as easy to get a beginner violin book, there are so many of them. The left hand is the same, and the teaching technique is often exceptional.

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## JeffD

> I was refering to learning where the notes are on the mandolin so I could apply the notation.


Available on many a mandolin website. Once you know where the open strings are, and you know that each fret is a half step - you can figure out the rest from there.

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## sinebar

> I think you might find the melodic nature of flute music - to be prevelant in mandolin -
> 
> I know a couple of flute players - who not only started playing bluegrass and fiddle tunes on flute - but also picked up the mandolin as a second instrument 
> 
> so I think it is easier than you might suspect


Yeah the music can definately be played on the flute. Especially Irish trad which a lot was written for the penny whistle. But to me bluegrass just doesn't sound right on the concert flute. Maybe the tone is too pure.

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## JeffD

You know, a thought just occured to me. Another difference between woodwinds and the mandolin that is crucial - (I played clarinet and bassoon), woodwinds have a particular place where the fingers "go" for each note. Sure there are alternate fingerings, but in general it is one finger pattern for each note.

Not true on the mandolin. It took me a while to get a handle on this. "Where do my fingers "go"?" In general it is good to start with assigning two frets per finger, but soon enough you will see that there are many places up the neck where the same note can be found, the difference being the ease of access to other harmony notes and chords, and the tonal qualities of the notes. You can play in various "positions" up the neck, and get the same notes out with different feelings, different emphasis, and different levels of difficulty.

It is this difference that may guide your decision regarding tab. Tab tells you where to put your fingers to play the tune. It is where someone has decided you should put your fingers, to play the tune the way he or she wants you to play it.

Notation leaves the finger placement up to you. There is a greater sense of accomplishment and of "owning" your version of the tune. There is more freedom I think.

Good luck. Its one awesome load of fun.

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## sinebar

[QUOTE= (JeffD @ Oct. 04 2007, 10:05)]


> Once you know where the open strings are, and you know that each fret is a half step - you can figure out the rest from there.


Hey that's right. Each fret a half step. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah that makes it easy to find the notes from a known starting place.

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## JeffD

> Hey that's right.

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## mandocrucian

> The Cafe has chosen the sadistic method of TAB only


This is because no jpgs or gifs are required. It's simply a "text" message (as is ABC code). Tab can be made with just the keyboard and a courier font.

----- 

I find it *baffling* that correlating note names to the particular stings/frets seems to be so problematic for some, and especially those who already play another instrument (and read). #A beginner who knows nothing about note names, scales, reading a clef, this is understandable in conjunction with the coordinational struggles of making the fingers go where the are supposed to while striking the correct string with pick held the other hand.

You just map out the fretboard like you do the roads and streets of a new town. You start with the main routes as basic reference points and branch out from there.

The fretboard... you don't even need to have the instrument in your hands to learn this stuff. 

(What's really ironic is that the more streamlined and efficient the learning system/method becomes...it seems the less mando "students" want anything to do with it.)

Niles H

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## Peter Hackman

[QUOTE= (sinebar @ Oct. 04 2007, 08:28)]


> Originally Posted by jk245,Oct. 03 2007, 19:59
> 
> 
> But, anyway, where's the *learning curve* in something you already know?
> 
> 
> I was refering to learning where the notes are on the mandolin so I could apply the notation.


If you have the reading ability, and the kind of musical literacy that
supposedly goes with it, it will greatly aid your understanding of the fretboard.

It did to me, although I've virtually *never* played anything 
on mandolin from sheet music. There are patterns that easily translate
across the strings and along the fretboard, from one key to another. Not quite like the flute where I understand fingering gets less natural or logical
 the further you move from the key of C.

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## entau

"Yeah the music can definately be played on the flute. Especially Irish trad which a lot was written for the penny whistle. But to me bluegrass just doesn't sound right on the concert flute. Maybe the tone is too pure"

well you would know better than me - but I couldn't disagree more-

check out Matt Ekle of the David Grisman Quartet-
true it's not really trad BG- but if anybody can pull it off - 

I'm sure you are familiar with Robert Dick - doing Jimi Hendrix on the flute - not bluegrass but same concept

 mandolin players have been known to play ( or attempt) music written for penny whistle - accordian- cello - clarinet - saxaphone, trumpet, flute, bagpipes, piano- well maybe not for tuba but....
granted some adaptation is required

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## jk245

> I like both, notes above tab, such as MZ, Niles' and Grisman's old books maintain. Notes have way of visually showing the flow that TAB does not. It's all good.


Musical notes are prettier than roman numeral tab

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## Dan Voight

Tab is by far inferior to standard notation.

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## ApK

> Tab is by far inferior to standard notation.

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## Klaus Wutscher

As a longtime mandolin player who just picked up the flute (and learning standard notation in the process) I feel that there are hardly two instruments that could be more different, but they make a great match. What they have in common is that at the very first glance they seem to be not too complicated, but get real tricky real soon (embrochure/proper right hand technique on mandolin). The fingering on flute is less logical than the patterns on the mando, but then again, you have to learn much less fingerings due to overblowing - but embrochure easly makes up for that convenience  


Notation vs tab: As tab does not indicate rythm, you either use it together with notation (in that case, you can learn from notation and consult tab for fingerings) or you use it together with a tune (from a recording, typically)so you can hear the rythm. This might actually be a good ear training, so in that case, tab may be quite useful. Tab is cool. But people who only relate on tab limit themselves quite a bit, while a few weeks of work could open them a whole new world of music. Been there, done that!

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## jmcgann

Quote (woodnbronze24 @ Oct. 04 2007, 22:59)
Tab is by far inferior to standard notation.



============================================

Many tab readers don't understand why tab is inferior, because they don't understand chord/melody relationships, and how crucial hearing those connections are. Notation SHOWS you the relationships, presupposing that you know what to look for (it ain't rocket surgery, either).

Without ears, neither tab nor standard notation will get you further than 'reciting the notes'.

If you don't understanding why standard notation is a better form of communication in the long run, this article might help explain why tab is a fine shortcut and fingering/position aid that works, but doesn't allow you to see 'under the hood' of music in a way that ultimately helps you to CREATE YOUR OWN. 

For those uninterested in theory or standard notation, skip it and enjoy playing from tab. It's better to play from tab than not play at all, but if you are frustrated with "not knowing what to play" other than versions of tunes learned from tab, this article might introduce you to concepts that ultimately will free your behind to be more creative 

PS- Klaus, the reason much tab has no rhythmic notation is that many tab readers don't know how to interpret it, since they haven't dealt with standard notation (yet?). As a professional transcriber, I have often been asked to leave off "timing stems, because it just clutters up the page".

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## Steve L

> . As a professional transcriber, I have often been asked to leave off "timing stems, because it just clutters up the page".


This reminds me of guitar students who ask me to turn off the metronome because it's "throwing off" their timing.

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## Klaus Wutscher

> As a professional transcriber, I have often been asked to leave off "timing stems, because it just clutters up the page".


 

I read a quote by a famous guitarist (can´t remember which) saying that tab produced a generation of players who cannot read notation and can´t read tab either. Niles commented something to the same effect above (about teaching). It seems that the more information is readily available and is spoonfed to us "the easy way, DVD with tab including a slow version", the more disfunctional most of us become as musicians (this side of professionals, of course). Young picker 30/40 years ago would have KILLED for all the mandolin methods, tune books, instruction books, DVDs...(and for a device to play them, of course) that gather dust on my shelf. How often did I really sit down to trascribe a song from a record? Hardly ever, because the information is readily available...

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## AlanN

> This reminds me of guitar students who ask me to turn off the metronome because it's "throwing off" their timing.


Well, I know the benefit of practicing with a metronome, but....CAUTION AHEAD: DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS....QUIT READING IF YOU'RE SICK OF SEEING ANOTHER OF THESE THINGS (so-and-so doesn't use one)

&lt;Ahem&gt;

I pulled out the old Frets issue of Hot Pickers on the cover, has an interview with Tony Rice, where he specifically discusses the metronome. I wish I had the interview here, but the gist is he does not (did not, it's from the 80's) use one, as he picks ahead/behind to suit his thing at the time, and the metronome gets in the way of that.

Mind you, I am not advocating one way or the other, just being ace reporter.

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## JeffD

> I find it *baffling* that correlating note names to the particular stings/frets seems to be so problematic for some, and especially those who already play another instrument (and read).


I think you under-estimate the "head space" of a woodwind compared to that of a stringed instrument. I know for me, (many years ago now), the transition from clarinet/bassoon to mandolin was a leap. 

Most of the woodwinds progress within a scale, like a clarinet progresses in the C scale. What I mean is that the simplest most straight forward movement one finger at a time up and down will yield a C scale. All the sharps and flats are side keys or alternate fingerings or pinky keys, or non-intuitive doubling of keys. (The bassoon has four or five thumb keys for the right hand for crying out loud.) So to play a chromatic scale requires a lot of "off track" manuvering.

This is nothing to the experienced player of course, but it does tend to creat a mindset where the C scale is "home" and everything else is an excursion from home, and the natural feeling progression is a major scale.

I can appreciate that for some it would not be obvious, upon first encountering a stringed instrument, that the frets go up a chromatic scale, and that C is a scale really no different from any other major scale, just shifted up or down, left or right. 

The mandolin is layed out so rationally, compared to the bassoon for example. I can't imagine going from the mandolin to a woodwind - it would be like abandoning logic.

Thats my experience anyway.

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## Klaus Wutscher

> I pulled out the old Frets issue of Hot Pickers on the cover, has an interview with Tony Rice, where he specifically discusses the metronome. I wish I had the interview here, but the gist is he does not (did not, it's from the 80's) use one, as he picks ahead/behind to suit his thing at the time, and the metronome gets in the way of that.


Anyone who knows that the metronome is not useful for him anymore because he "broke on through to the other side" after thousands of hours of practice and playing with timing obsessed bandleaders like JD Crowe is likely having good reasons to practice the way he does.

Still, as long as someone is not able to play dead on the beat/offbeat in different grooves and speeds even on a bad day, the TR rule does not apply...

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## Scott Tichenor

Not that it matters, but some background on the tab archive for those of you who might find a tidbit here to bloviate on further.

The Cafe tab archive was started in early 1996 when the web was an entirely different world. There were strange things many of you never had the pleasure of experiencing. Like dial-up modems. As someone who reads standard fairly well--personally I'd never buy a book that's just tab--and has had a stack of jazz fake books, fiddle tune collections, choro books, etc., etc., for years, when I figured out you could easily put up a tune that was 2K (important then) I thought, no harm there. Haven't really actively developed much there in the past 5-6 years. In my mind, it's just not that important on this site, but you can't tell that from the traffic there and the downloads.

Fact is, after teaching mandolin students for 25 years, most are simply never going to embrace standard notation. Not sure why. Maybe it harks back to memories of evil grade school teachers forcing repeated singings of Kum ba yah. 

So, that brings me to the opinion that all of this chit-chat about "tastes great", "less filling", simply isn't important. If you wish to be a (warning, oxymoron ahead) professional mandolin player, maybe. If you wish to read standard or not, same. For 99% or likely higher, it *really* doesn't matter other than eternal suffering under the opprobrium of being a tab reader and the need for some to criticize what they don't practice. Curious.

Another point is, there's an endless source of standard, so why would anyone want to publish versions of mandolin breaks by various authors? Too much of what I call "mandolin inbreeding" generated by that.

So, John. When are you going to walk the talk and discontinue the tab that appears in almost every single publication you've authored?

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## lgc

People talk so much about the tab/notation thing here. Use your ears. They are the best tool a musician has.

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## Scott Tichenor

> People talk so much about the tab/notation thing here. Use your ears. They are the best tool a musician has.


Another good point.

Here's a recommendation for Debora Chen's book for those of you interested. Same book at Elderly.

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## AlanN

I, for one, dig that tab archive, it's like an old shoe you don't want to throw out, and I occasionally go there and look around, there are some hip tunes in there.

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## Steve L

> Originally Posted by  (Steve L @ Oct. 05 2007, 09:15)
> 
> This reminds me of guitar students who ask me to turn off the metronome because it's "throwing off" their timing.
> 
> 
> Well, I know the benefit of practicing with a metronome, but....CAUTION AHEAD: DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS....QUIT READING IF YOU'RE SICK OF SEEING ANOTHER OF THESE THINGS (so-and-so doesn't use one)
> 
> &lt;Ahem&gt;
> 
> ...


When I get a kid who's been studying for two months and plays like Tony Rice I'll be sure and let you know.

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## AlanN

Hey, there are loads of kids out there who do just that, at least what I see/hear around these parts. And more being created every day.

And I don't get it - I just report on a documented, real-world viewpoint from a world-class guitarist, and thread contributors write stuff that borders on 'jumping on your case'. Relax, folks, it's just music...

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## sinebar

> Quote (woodnbronze24 @ Oct. 04 2007, 22:59)
> Tab is by far inferior to standard notation.
> 
> 
> 
> ============================================
> 
> Many tab readers don't understand why tab is inferior, because they don't understand chord/melody relationships, and how crucial hearing those connections are. Notation SHOWS you the relationships, presupposing that you know what to look for (it ain't rocket surgery, either).
> 
> ...


One of the main reasons I stll play the flute after 2 years is because I learned to read music. Other wise I would have had to spend hours learning a single piece of music by ear which is agonizingly slow and then you wind up hating the song because you had to play countless times and don't want to play it anymore. I quit the banjo and guitar for this very reason only after a short time. So learning to read music for me was a blessing.

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## Steve L

Loads of kids playing 2 months that sound like Tony Rice? I must admit...I'm skeptical.

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## JeffD

> Another point is, there's an endless source of standard, so why would anyone want to publish versions of mandolin breaks by various authors? Too much of what I call "mandolin inbreeding" generated by that.


There is truth in that: Our mandolin heros did not learn their great licks from a collection of others' great licks.

Why be almost as good as someone else when you can be the best at playing your own style. Let others read your licks off an archive and try to be almost as good as you.

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## ApK

> Quote (woodnbronze24 @ Oct. 04 2007, 22:59)
> Tab is by far inferior to standard notation.
> 
> 
> 
> ============================================
> 
> Many tab readers don't understand why tab is inferior,..


Tab is a useful learning tool for being shown HOW to play a tune. #The day I got my mando, I could look at a tabbed tune and play something. # Tab is SUPERIOR to standard at telling a beginner HOW to play something on a given instrument, simply because standard doesn't try to do that. #Tab is also exceptionally easy to learn to understand, which might be a SUPERIOR trait for an already overwhelmed beginner. #I can teach someone the basics of standard notation in about 15 minutes. #I can teach someone the basics of tab in about 1.
I just found the broad, unqualified 'inferior' statement worthy of raised eyebrow.

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## AlanN

> Loads of kids playing 2 months that sound like Tony Rice? #I must admit...I'm skeptical.


Come to the Piedmont of North Carolina sometime during festival season... "I'll show you something to make you change your mind" (just have T. Rice in the player, as we speak) #

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## Steve L

Wow!

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## AlanN

Gee!

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## El Greco

Standard is a means to understanding nuances you wouldn't be able to "get" with just tab. Ear training is a different animal. Sight and Hearing work in tandem with standard notation. Tab is mostly sight. And then you get used to waiting for the next 1, 2, 3, 4, mark to know where to place your fingers.

I've revisited standard notation (thank you to Debora Chen by the way) after 18 years of just playing by ear and using tab. Truth is when I was around 9 years old, I hated metronomes and standard notation, so I "rebelled" by gradually ignoring standard notation and favoring ear training. But now, I realize I need to know the DNA of each piece I'm trying to play. And standard notation helps me do that.

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## jmcgann

> So, John. When are you going to walk the talk and discontinue the tab that appears in almost every single publication you've authored?


Ah, Ella Fitzgerald, er, ...mentary, My Dear Watson. You'll note two facts:

a) The standard notation is above the tab.
b) Mel Bay won't publish me WITHOUT tab.

Like Apk says, tab is great for beginners. Trouble is, beginners want to eventually stop being beginners, and tab will only get them so far. 

The other trouble is that explaining to really hard core died-in-the-wool tab-only folks _why_ tab is limited is like trying to explain a new color- you have to have the vocabulary (read basic music theory) to understand the gains you get from notation.


Tab is GREAT for crosspicking (see McReynolds book by Statman) where the notes ain't where you think they are gonna be; also great for banjo and pedal steel, for the same reason of whacky layout.

On the mandolin, there really aren't such "excuses".

Plus,EVERYTHING that tab does in terms of showing you where to play a note on a string can be done with the simple indication of a circled number, i.e. a circled 3 would indicate "play on the D string". There is ONLY ONE location to play any given note on any string. There are only A DOZEN notes. 

Again, the gains you get from learning this system FAR outweigh the effort put into learning it. And, once you know it, you KNOW it, as long as you continue to use it.

PS- Jeff Berlin (great bassist) is another guy who thinks the metronome is jive. Funny about Tony Rice; I heard the DGQ practiced with a metronome quite a bit... Doyle Lawson and Quicksilver too.

I wish I was born with a great sense of time, but the metronome continues to help me sharpen what I have. Some banjo player named Tony Trishcka suggest I do this in 1979. I'm really glad I listened to him. Now, when we play gigs together, i see him backstage warming up with his (set slowly, just doing simple rolls). 

'Ja think there _might_ be something to it? 


PS- Aren't there already enough Tony Rice Clones for Pete's sake?

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## AlanN

Well said. The Rice comments may have been made at the time of his dawg 'distancing'. I don't know, but I do know that the timing of that first DGQ band was metronomic when it had to be.

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## Scott Tichenor

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> So, John. When are you going to walk the talk and discontinue the tab that appears in almost every single publication you've authored?
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, Ella Fitzgerald, er, ...mentary, My Dear Watson. You'll note two facts:
> 
> a) The standard notation is above the tab.
> b) Mel Bay won't publish me WITHOUT tab.


That's a lot of answers for questions not asked, at least by me . Never said I didn't agree with your statements, and I have no beef with standard, or tab for that matter, or you're insistence on addressing the differences. If Mel Bay allowed it, would you then choose to publish without tab?

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## jmcgann

No problemo, Captain T! I didn't address the general post to you, just the bit you quoted above. I know we are on the same page. The metronome thing was mentioned in some earlier posts...

If Mel Bay allowed it AND I thought it wouldn't hurt sales, then yes, in my own little mind I would think it best to publish standard notation only, with those circled string indicators for the tricky parts. Since every other instrument on the planet (including those with difficult fingering patterns) use standard notation, why not us? Fiddle players don't need it...

In the real world, though, tablature has created a culture of players who have never learned notation (and don't know what they are missing). Their money is, of course, just as green, and rather than alienate them, and deprive Mel Bay* of their 90% slice of the pie (Yes, this is the Glory and Wonder of "The Book Deal"  ) I suspect I would provide the tab with the music. 

I don't want anyone to think I'm a snob  

* God Bless 'em, if I were to be sole distributor I'd probably not make my lunch money!

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## ApK

> Since every other instrument on the planet (including those with difficult fingering patterns) use standard notation, why not us?


Well, the instruments from the western hemisphere, at any rate...




> Fiddle players don't need it


This guy:
http://www.fiddleguru.com/
seems to think we do.

But I must say, I looked at those fiddle tabs and for myself learning fiddle, I much prefer standard notation with numbers to aid in fingering, like in Brian Wicklund's American Fiddle Method, Vol 1.
That's the same thing you said you use for mando, right?

ApK

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## Jeroen

1) Is it because of the standard notation "snobs" who claim that TAB is not written music, but written instrument operation (am I quoting you correct there John? I can't find the thread), that otherwise copyrighted "material" can circulate freely on the internet?

2) I think Tony Rice often practiced with rock-solid backup musicians and can play ahead of a metronome at will. Not sure though.

3) Standard notation has its limits too: Why would we need conductors in the classical world?

4) If you can't read tab you can't read for example Niles's great little transcription booklets. 

5) A tab of this will help reading this and maybe even make it sound better.

----------

Standard notation tends to give people the idea that _everything_ they need to know in order to play the piece is right there in front of them. That is seldom true unless the person who created the standard notation was careful to get the rhythm exactly correct. 

To me the perfect combination is standard notation on top, tab on the bottom and a CD to add those elements that just don't translate well to paper. If I have to choose one I'll take the CD. It has all the information I need, I just have to work a bit harder to get it.

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## ApK

> To me the perfect combination is standard notation on top, tab on the bottom and a CD to add those elements that just don't translate well to paper.


To me, perfect combination is standard notation on top, tab on the bottom and an accomplished live teacher/performer in the room with me to teach me how it's really done.

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## ApK

> 1) Is it because of the standard notation "snobs" who claim that TAB is not written music, but written instrument operation (am I quoting you correct there John? I can't find the thread), that otherwise copyrighted "material" can circulate freely on the internet?


In the same way that a CD isn't recorded music, but instructions to a computer digital-to-analog converter, and a book isn't recorded text, it's instructions to your optic nerve and visual cortex....

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## jmcgann

I know the tab-only OLGA (Online Guitar Association of inaccurate tab compendium) has been shut down for copyright violations, so tab doesn't keep the lawyers at bay...

Yep, standard notation is VERY limited. Only so much stuff can be put on paper. Your mind is the computer. If you understand harmonic "data", it will compute more clearly with notes than with tab.

The Bach example is easier to read than it looks: the upstem notes are all open E string. Tab would be less cluttered there, but would it show you how he is implying E7 to A to Asus2 in bars 4-6? If you know what to look for, it's all laid out there plain as day, and shows why JS Bach was really the first jazz musician (in terms of harmonic content in melody lines- which is a HUGE part of understanding how to improvise coherently).

----------

Well, if you know what to look for TAB would tell you the same thing.

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## mandocrucian

> I think you under-estimate the "head space" of a woodwind compared to that of a stringed instrument.


Well, I picked up flute because I wanted to revisited the "mapping out" mental process, and I couldn't do it on a stringed instrument, because those were simply variations of what I was used to already (mandos). I had piano when I was a kid, so the keyboard was familiar.

You know what I use to map out the flute? #A whole lot of the same exercises/tunes that I developed for beginning mando players. On mando, I would proably start with G major - on flute, my basic route reference has be D major and D minor. And then expand from that. #I haven't gotten into the third octave yet because I'm still working on consistancy in the second octave. 

Now I'm not a "notation Nazi" and I have stuck up for tab in many instances; it is not "evil" and is #quite useful or valid in many instances. (My tab _always_ uses the rhythmic notation of stems and beams.) But tab could also be "oral" as well a written - a pitched mantra with a set of fretting instructions attached to the "tune". But I'm also _pro-notation_. I'm also pro-sol-feg, and, a lot of other things which may not initially seem like it has any relation to "the mandolin".

There's all this _"stuff"_....note names, knowing what notes are in a particular chord, or scale, sol-feg syllables, rhythmic counting, hand/foot tapping of rhythmic grooves or polyrhythms, mechanical hand exercises, vocalizing drills.... #What a whole of folks don't realize is that while this is not the "building", it is the "scaffolding" which allows you to put up the building. You don't think this stuff is really necessary?..fine - bang that nail into the board with your fists rather than taking some time out to build yourself a hammer. But which is going to be more efficient and be the big time-saver in the long run?

Callisthenics and/or various training exercises isn't karate or muay thai or aikido. So why bother...go straight to the fighting? #Because those exercises (begin to) get your body (and/or mind) into shape so you can actually get into the real thing or start to learn. No scaffolding....not much of a building to speak of.

Niles H

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## Jeroen

I did not know TAB on the net was being prosecuted. Good to hear for the composers involved, and, I guess, for transcription services too! 

I think the only bad thing about TAB is that it discourages people to dig a little deeper and learn standard notation. But come on, there can be music in TAB that can be played and communicated and enjoyed. And it's a great little tool to illustrate fingerings and techniques.

Reading the Bach phrase (slow reader as I am) I am not so sure whether one should play it on mandolin like Mike Marshall does, with quarter note open E's, violin fingerings, string crossings and harmonic melody content in full glory(!) or emulate the violin for which it was composed and shorten the E's to the sixteenths as they are written out.

Playing this phrase on mandolin there is no open e notated (only short 16th E's). Two stem directions are not enough to notate the harmonic effect of several (proto jazz if you wish) melo-harmonic triads.

Old fashioned numbers-only tab (under the standard notation), and written references to Bach's harpsichord music and Mike Marshall's funky version of the preludio would help lots.

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## jmcgann

> Playing this phrase on mandolin there is no open e notated (only short 16th E's).


That's how every violinist plays it (open E)...the second you remove the bow from the string, it stops ringing, unlike mando.




> Well, if you know what to look for TAB would tell you the same thing.


Well, when I look at tab I don't see anything like chord/melody relationships at all. I have to translate the tab to pitches to see that. I see it instantly when I look at notes.

Niles' post above is wonderful. I, too, am not anti-tab, I am anti-dismissing standard as "too hard" or "not worth it", or especially "tab tells you the same thing as notation". It doesn't.

----------

There is nothing modern TAB cannot communicate that standard notation can.

The real difference is that in order to fully understand TAB one must be fluent in the instrument the TAB is written for. Any musician can read a mandolin arrangement in standard notation.

----------


## jmcgann

> The real difference is that in order to fully understand TAB one must be fluent in the instrument the TAB is written for. Any musician can read a mandolin arrangement in standard notation.


If I write 25 (string 4) 25 (string 3) 25 (string 2) in tab, do you see that it is a sequence of notes that ascend on the lines of the staff, indicating chord structure? Granted, you have to know what to look for in notation, but it's WAY more visible in notation than in tab.

If I take a Bach piece in notation and want to write in chord symbols above it (which is a really fun thing to do, again proving ol' JS was the Charlie Parker of the 18th century), I can do so in my easy chair without an instrument. I cannot do this in tab unless I translate the tab positions to pitches first- an extra (and unnecessary) step.


Most tab readers (in my teaching experience, not necessarily you, dear reader) don't even realize that same chord tones can be extracted, juggled and revoiced, other than "I know the D chord- sure, 2002 or 745 or 14 12 9 10). It's not easy to make the leap that D, F# and A in various combinations can suggest this chord other than memorizing a bunch of tab positions. When you know the notes, you figure out where they are and get at them NOT thinking of fret numbers, but of pitches, It's a different way of addressing the instrument AND music, and it's more the way improvisers throughout the instrument world think; not instrument-specific tab, but in the universal language of notes as they relate to the chord of the moment.


When you look at DF#A on the page you either see 3 notes all on spaces (string 4) or lines (string 2). When you have notes going up on consective lines or consecutive spaces, it indicates 3rds which are the primary chordal interval.

When you see 047 in tab it's not easy to see the relationship, because when you do the math, the distance from 0 to 4 is wider than 4 to 7, which obscures this fact.

It only matters to people who want to think this way. It's not a crime to not think this way. It is complicated to think this way. The easy way isn't always the best way

----------


## Jeroen

Guitar players must hate standard notation even more than we mandolin players do. They use bottle neck slides, whammy bars, bends, cross string melodies with melody notes accompanying each other. They also drop off the G clef staff on their low strings. Fingerpickers play their bass lines with the same hand as their melody and accompaniment voicings and will want to read it all on one staff.

Here is a link to a balanced discussion of SN/TAB from a guitarplayer's point of view. It deals with many of the opinions and observations in this thread.

----------


## JeffD

> 5) A tab of this will help reading this and maybe even make it sound better.


Yea but it would rob you of the fun of figuring out a way of playing it, and feeling that it was your own.

Truth is everyone is different, and as long as they get to the point of putting finger to fret and playing, I guess it really doesn't matter.

I should say, it really doesn't matter to me. That someone uses tab doesn't rob me in any way of my enjoyment of the instrument. And once that person has got the tune under control on the instrument, we can communicate through the music.

----------


## JeffD

I guess it kind of boils down to an arguement between the "no pain - no gain" folks and the "no pain - no pain" folks. And for the person who has a full time job dealing with air sucking idiot managers and whining self absorbed customers, the guy or gal who just comes home tired and discouraged, and wants to make pretty music for awhile, hey why not tab. Really.

If you take the music, be it tab or standard notation, numbers or dots, and you roll it up and stick it in your ear, it makes only a kind of whoooshing sound. No music in there. The real music is in the playing, and once your there, and we can play together, it becomes less important what path you took to get there.

----------


## jmcgann

> Here is a link to a balanced discussion of SN/TAB from a guitarplayer's point of view. It deals with many of the opinions and observations in this thread.


I don't think this is unbalanced. I think tab and standard notation can peacefully coexist. I just think it's good to recognize that while tab is a good "quick start", for players who want to get "under the hood" beyond just fret positions, tab is weaker as a communication tool.

And yes-the real music is in the playing. If you are taking the path to creating melodic variations, improvisation, or what have you, beyond imitation of someone else's work, then your ears are more valuable than any paper...although your ears can be _informed_ by stuff on paper.

----------


## MandoSquirrel

> As a professional transcriber, I have often been asked to leave off "timing stems, because it just clutters up the page".


!!I'm always annoyed when I look at tab & am apparently expected to know the time of the tones, rhythms, etc  . If you're not giving me notes, at least give me stems on the tab!! 

If I have standard with no tab, I can work out how to play music I've never heard. Using tab WITH timing indicators(stems,etc.), I Might be able to get it, but if I have tab & No timing indicators, chances are I can't get it right unless I can hear it.

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## jmcgann

> Quote (jmcgann @ Oct. 05 2007, 08:41)
> As a professional transcriber, I have often been asked to leave off "timing stems, because it just clutters up the page".
> 
> !!I'm always annoyed when I look at tab & am apparently expected to know the time of the tones, rhythms, etc  . If you're not giving me notes, at least give me stems on the tab!!


I only leave off timing stems if I get paid to leave them off

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## MandoSquirrel

I understood that, it's not you, it's the publisher i was ranting at , there.

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## mando.player

If there is notation and TAB, I prefer no stems on the TAB, just numbers.

John, have you ever looked into on demand publishing? I don't know a whole lot about it, but it might be another option for publishing. The company that comes to mind is Book Surge. They are owned by Amazon, but I think they do traditional distribution too.

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## jmcgann

Thanks Charlie, I'll consider that option.

----------

The arguments about the superiority of standard notation _assume_ the person using that standard notation has an extremely high level of competency. Most of the people I run into who can "read" standard notation have really only learned to translate the dots to their instrument. Without their instrument those really are just dots.

Most people who buy books about playing the mandolin are specifically interested in playing the mandolin. Standard notation does not help a person learn to play the mandolin, he must learn where those dots are on the mandolin before he can even begin to play them. The information he _must_ have is "that dot is on this string at that fret." Tab communicates that information efficiently.

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## jmcgann

> The arguments about the superiority of standard notation assume the person using that standard notation has an extremely high level of competency. Most of the people I run into who can "read" standard notation have really only learned to translate the dots to their instrument. Without their instrument those really are just dots.


Those people are better equipped to take the next step, should they choose to. The language of music theory is spoken in notation, not tab.




> Most people who buy books about playing the mandolin are specifically interested in playing the mandolin. Standard notation does not help a person learn to play the mandolin, he must learn where those dots are on the mandolin before he can even begin to play them. The information he must have is "that dot is on this string at that fret." Tab communicates that information efficiently.


In fact, it bypasses that information ("dots" which really means musical pitches) altogether, and equates sound purely with fret positions. 

It will get you to the fish, and you'll eat, but it doesn't teach you how to fish (to mangle an old analogy!)

In my teaching experience, I see a lot of people trying to reach the 'next level'. Aside from technique issues, what many students lack is a _basic musical conception_. Understanding notation on a basic level, and theory on a basic level, can help further your conception.

Anyone work with my "Developing Melodic Variations on Fiddle Tunes" book? I'd be curious to hear about how the short theory section worked for you...

----------


## Peter Hackman

> No problemo, Captain T! I didn't address the general post to you, just the bit you quoted above. I know we are on the same page. The metronome thing was mentioned in some earlier posts...
> 
> If Mel Bay allowed it AND I thought it wouldn't hurt sales, then yes, in my own little mind I would think it best to publish standard notation only, with those circled string indicators for the tricky parts. Since every other instrument on the planet (including those with difficult fingering patterns) use standard notation, why not us? Fiddle players don't need it...
> 
> In the real world, though, tablature has created a culture of players who have never learned notation (and don't know what they are missing). Their money is, of course, just as green, and rather than alienate them, and deprive Mel Bay* of their 90% slice of the pie (Yes, this is the Glory and Wonder of "The Book Deal"  ) I suspect I would provide the tab with the music. 
> 
> I don't want anyone to think I'm a snob  
> 
> * God Bless 'em, if I were to be sole distributor I'd probably not make my lunch money!


If TABs are included for purely commercial reasons, it's easy to understand why the tabs in certain collections are so inaccurate as regards fingering and pick economy, etc.

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## Peter Hackman

> Originally Posted by  (jmcgann @ Oct. 05 2007, 08:41)
> 
> . As a professional transcriber, I have often been asked to leave off "timing stems, because it just clutters up the page".
> 
> 
> This reminds me of guitar students who ask me to turn off the metronome because it's "throwing off" their timing.


Maybe it did. 

I've used a metronome only once in my life - because when I learned the general saying was, play with people, not gadgets (fashions come and go). The one time was when I wished to improve the timing in my singing. I tended to rush. But the damn thing was so quiet I had to strain to hear it. Of course, the human voice is a very loud instrument, especially to the singer, as it more ore less fills your head. But it helped me realize _why_ and
_where_ I was rushing - usually a tricky phrase, with lots of movement in a high range. So I realized that I either had to improve my technique or give
up that tricky stuff and concentrate on my other instruments.

*Hackman's Theorem*: Your time is never better than your technique

My nephew 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnB2SBYYjZ0

uses a metronome for recording. He records a dummy track for his drummer to work on, then when the drummer has recorded his track he adds his own parts. That metronome drives me crazy, there's not even a 'one'!
The best substitute for me would be a shuffle rhythm on my studio.

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## August Watters

> Without their instrument those really are just dots.


This is a misunderstanding of how standard notation works. If you don't have your instrument, and you know how to read music, you will be able to mentally "hear" the music anyway. That's an essential difference between standard notation and tab.

There are plenty of people who understand the mechanics of notation on their instrument, without having related it to the ear -- that's only half of understanding how to read music.

READING MUSIC IS EASY. 

August W

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## ApK

> Originally Posted by  (Steve L @ Oct. 05 2007, 09:15)
> 
> This reminds me of guitar students who ask me to turn off the metronome because it's "throwing off" their timing.
> 
> 
> Maybe it did.


I bet it threw off their bad timing by distracting them with correct timing.
That's certainly what happens at our beginners jam. #We know we're a train wreck with a metronome, and we sound better without trying to play to one, but we fully realize that that's because we are NOT playing with good timing, we are all playing with bad time and adjusting to the feel of everyone around. #That's fine. #That's real. That's live.
But few of us doubt that we'd be served better musically if we practiced with the metronome more and got our own time closer to ITS time so it didn't 'throw us off' as much. #




> *Hackman's Theorem*: Your time is never better than your technique


I think I get what you're saying, but I might offer "your time never APPEARS better than your technique."
BB King commented on a video that it wasn't until he started playing with others that he found out how bad his time was. #
When he played alone, it was never an issue... his feel and technique make him great. #No one listening to him would notice or care about his time.
But he says other players would tell him "BB, we love your playing, but it's TWELVE BARS, man! #You can't wait twelve bars for the first change!"

ApK

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## lgc

I really prefer shape-note notation, for everything. Sure some people want to keep it just for singing, but I think that it could have applications in every avenue of music ranging from bluegrass to symphonic music. There is a sort of visual poetry to how the shapes move on the page. I do feel, however, that the rombus shape is total underutilized.

----------

Why assume that I cannot hear the sounds that will come from a mandolin TAB if I don't have my mandolin? Of course I can! I know what that note on the second string at the fifth fret sounds like. I also know the name of that note. 

The thing is, people with the deep understanding of standard notation that John has don't tend to _purchase_ the books John writes. They don't need to. The publisher knows this.

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## Klaus Wutscher

> Why assume that I cannot hear the sounds that will come from a mandolin TAB if I don't have my mandolin? Of course I can! I know what that note on the second string at the fifth fret sounds like. I also know the name of that note.


Certainly true - for first position anyway. Second postion - maybe still. Third position - yes, but probably not on the fly - plus, it´s one more intermediate step, as in notation, the note is the tone, whereas in tab, the number is only the place where to find the (unidentified) note.

Tabs biggest advantage (providing instant fingerings) is also its biggest weakness (lack of displaying patterns and musical ideas). Same goes for standard notation (only in reverse).

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## lgc

I also think that maybe using vaugue similies to comunicate music ideas would be good, such as "the next three bars should move like sparrows, disturbed by the first moring like and show a feeling of steel weeping under the weight of its own rusty frame." Haven't we, as a society, moved past out-dated notions of standardized musical transcrition. I just don't think that they represent the full potential of the human spirit and that they stiffle the artist ability to reflect themselves as a product of the culture in which they were produced.

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## jmcgann

> Haven't we, as a society, moved past out-dated notions of standardized musical transcrition. I just don't think that they represent the full potential of the human spirit and that they stiffle the artist ability to reflect themselves as a product of the culture in which they were produced.


Yeah, I'm refining my music to the point where I don't even have to play

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## Steve L

> Originally Posted by  (Peter Hackman @ Oct. 07 2007, 11:56)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by  (Steve L @ Oct. 05 2007, 09:15)
> 
> ...


If you and your friends enjoy playing together however you play I think that's great. If you come to the music store I work in and pay me to to try and help you work on your playing and you cant play 2 bars in the same tempo and I don't try to address that, I'm cheating you. The only purpose a metronome serves in this world is to improve a musician's sense of time and phrasing. If you don't consider that a priority that's your business. I don't think I'm "distracting" someone who is playing wrong notes by showing them the correct ones and I feel the same way about timing. A lot of people don't care and that's their choice.

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## ApK

Just making sure, Steve, you realize I'm on your side here?

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## lgc

"Yeah, I'm refining my music to the point where I don't even have to play" 

Sometimes it's the people who don't play who make the best music.

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## lgc

Think about what a transcription of that would look like.

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## mythicfish

John Cage: 433?

Curt

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## ApK

> John Cage: 433?


Cubs: 0

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## Steve L

> Just making sure, Steve, you realize I'm on your side here?


Oops!

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## lgc

"Quote (mythicfish @ Oct. 08 2007, 11:57) 
John Cage: 433? 

Cubs: 0"

My question is-Who did a better job representing the idea of minimalism?

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## jmcgann

> My question is-Who did a better job representing the idea of minimalism?
> 
> --------------


My answer is:



-------------------

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## lgc

You win.

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## Peter Hackman

> Guitar players must hate standard notation even more than we mandolin players do. They use bottle neck slides, whammy bars, bends, cross string melodies with melody notes accompanying each other. They also drop off the G clef staff on their low strings. Fingerpickers play their bass lines with the same hand as their melody and accompaniment voicings and will want to read it all on one staff.
> 
> Here is a link to a balanced discussion of SN/TAB from a guitarplayer's point of view. It deals with many of the opinions and observations in this thread.


I'm a guitar player, though not a classical one, nor a Travis picker.
And I don't hate standard. 

The thing with guitar pieces like that is they're hard to play prima vista either way; most of us need to think through the hand movements and finger positions that allow you to create the illusion of several independent lines in one fretting hand. I can't say that tab helped in these examples, and less clutttered standard would have been more helpful. 

In looking at the first piece in standard I immediately see what chords are
 used, how they were spaced and inverted (I must explore that voicing of the B7 chord!); I also see how bars 1 plus 3, and bars 2 plus 4 parallell one another rhtyhmically. Not sure again that the tab reflects that insight,
which is immediate from standard.

 And theres' nothing that the tab adds to it. I'd really hate to have to rely only on the latter. 

An interesting thing is the explanation of the bass clef. Yes, that's the way I thought of it when I got started in music. But the point, especially from the piano player's view is that the treble and bass staffs are continuations of one another - they're separated by a common c, "middle c". The author
should have printed that note between the two staffs.

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## Peter Hackman

> If you and your friends enjoy playing together however you play I think that's great. #If you come to the music store I work in and pay me to to try and help you work on your playing and you cant play 2 bars in the same tempo and I don't try to address that, I'm cheating you. #The only purpose a metronome serves in this world is to improve a musician's sense of time and phrasing. #If you don't consider that a priority that's your business. #I don't think I'm "distracting" someone who is playing wrong notes by showing them the correct ones and I feel the same way about timing. #A lot of people don't care and that's their choice.


I recall a didactical article in Down Beat where the writer admonished the readers to use a metronome in order

1) not to be tempted to slow down on tricky passages
2) not to be tempted to rush on easy ones

That made sense. I think my time is OK when I can flub a note without
flubbing the beat.

I hope your metronome is loud enough. The mechanical ones were to quiet even for my mandolin. On the studio I can adjust the volume, and also find nicer rhtyhms to play along with.

----------

I guess modern TAB isn't as well known as I thought. You guys do know that we don't write it out with a pencil anymore, right?

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## mando.player

I've got more metronome than I really need, it's a Tama RW105. It can get WAY loud. Peter, it allows you to configure the "one" (a different tone) so you don't get lost in the clicks.

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## entau

Jesus is my metronome

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## ApK

> Jesus is my metronome


Not a good tool for improving timing...too forgiving.

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## AlanN

And don't forget Buzz Busby, who claimed to speed up his built-in metronome (read: heart) when he wanted fast trem.

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## entau

in all seriousness -

metronome for me is great alone - and yes Peter Hackman I have used it alot in recording - lay down the metronome track - record the main part of the tune - be that bass line or chord progression following the metronome,after that the metrnome can be silenced- for me - it makes laying down the rest of the tracks easy.

I have tried metronome in groups - never really worked -
doesn't mean it can't - I just have not had good luck with it in a group situation.

is it a coincidence that the "standard notation for the tab addicted mandolinist" is linked on the mandolin cafe home page?

while I am not a "speed reader" and often need to run through a piece many times just to learn it from notation-
I have never really enjoyed learning tunes from tab.


tab is kind of like footprints on the floor of a dance studio -
so it's great for beginners

as opposed to teaching a dancer moves that are a part of a dance.

of course some folks - like P McCarteny for example - who claim to not know how to read music - seem to get along just fine.

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## jmcgann

> of course some folks - like P McCarteny for example - who claim to not know how to read music - seem to get along just fine.


All You Need Are Ears

Players who are convinced they don't 'need' a metronome should sit down with an open mind for 10 minutes and try playing along with one at various tempos. It's an eye opener.

----------

"tab is kind of like footprints on the floor of a dance studio - so it's great for beginners"

But what if one is interested in learning the methods of another mandolinist? If you give me standard notation of his playing I will play it according to _my_ interpretation of that music. What I really want to know is how _he_ plays it.

If I am lucky enough to be able to get a lesson from him I will be able to get the information. Failing that, TAB is the next best thing. TAB is not only for beginners or lazy players.

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## jk245

What is TAB? 

From all the discussion, I can only imagine that the only way to go is to read standard notation and forget about any of the following:
(woops, one site has KOTO TAB)

http://www.alltabs.com/mandolin_tablature_list.php

http://www.alltabs.com/bluegrass_tabs.php

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/barb92...Tablature.html

http://www.free-scores.com/frame-u....rl=http

http://www.folkofthewood.com/page129.htm

http://freetabs.org/otherinst.htm#Mando

http://www.fretplay.com/tabs/m/mandolin/

http://iomusic.com/bush/free-sheet-music-download.html

http://jaybuckeymusic.com/archives.htm

http://www.mandozine.com/music/index.php

http://www.power-tab.net/

http://www.strumhollow.com/tab_archives.htm

http://www.tabledit.com

http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~eknuth/mandotab/index.html

http://www.google.com/Top/Arts/Music...nged/Mandolin/

http://koto.sapp.org/kotospec/#string

http://www.nigelgatherer.com/index.html

http://www.ceolas.org/tunes/fc/


There is too much emotion on this topic.
If you are happy with your method then go for it.

.
.
.
.
.

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## Mike Bunting

I played with a drummer last summer who kept a metronome with him on stage. He'd check once in a while to make sure he was accurate in his timing. He didn't play to it, he knows that music breathes. It was great to play with a drummer who could keep us reined in when we needed it

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## jmcgann

> But what if one is interested in learning the methods of another mandolinist? If you give me standard notation of his playing I will play it according to my interpretation of that music. What I really want to know is how he plays it.


It's a mandolin. There aren't THAT many possibilities for fingerings/positions (unlike guitar, where knowledge of Chet Atkins isn't going to help much with Allan Holdsworth.) If you use your ears for open string vs. closed string timbre,and wound vs. unwound string tone; notes played up the neck having a thicker sound than the same note in a lower position, etc. and you have a few year's experience, figuring out positions shouldn't be too hard.

Very much Monroe is played from the chop chord positions. Very much fiddle tune music is played in first position. Those are the bread and butter of the instrument.

Just because _someone on the internet_ offers tab (or notation for that matter) doesn't mean it's accurate. I've seen so much stuff that was miles from the ballpark...transcribers call on their own experience and ability (or lack thereof!)

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## jk245

> It's a mandolin. There aren't THAT many possibilities for fingerings/positions


For any musical piece there are as many finger positions as there are players.

I can not dream to play piece "A" like a great player x, and I can play a better piece "B" than an absolute beginner. 

Do not compare yourself with a great player unless you ARE are 'great' player, and, there are so few of 'US'.

If you feel TAB is your reading tool than go for it and induce your own interpretation. If you do not like the TAB then you have any right not to use it. Do not put others down for TAB as their preference. .... AND, if you are a TAB player then the same is true for your feeling of standard notation.

----------

MikeyG

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## August Watters

> Just because someone on the internet offers tab (or notation for that matter) doesn't mean it's accurate. I've seen so much stuff that was miles from the ballpark..


The tablature available on the web is VERY inconsistent, and there's a lot of bad stuff out there. For that matter, there's even more bad standard notation on the web -- by that I mean it's full of departures from convention that make it hard to read. If you know how to read music, you're in a position to find the mistake and figure out what it probably was supposed to be.

Yes, there's a lot of emotion here, probably the result of multiple misunderstandings about each other. My advice: If you know how to use tab, use it. If you know how to use standard notation, use that. If you understand both, then you're in a position to compare their relative strengths and weaknesses. 

The reason I spend so much energy explaining the weaknesses of tablature is NOT that I "hate" it. Sometimes it's the most direct way to get from here to there; for example if someone is paying me X dollars per hour for a lesson, I don't want to waste their time trying to explain something in a language they're not yet fluent in. And sometimes the visual patterns on the fingerboard I'm trying to explain are more easily illustrated in tablature or fingering charts, so that's the more direct path. But as someone mentioned before, the accessibility of tablature is also what makes it limiting in the long run.

The reason I advocate standard notation over tablature is that I have had SO many students come in, looking for a way to break through the patterns they've memorized, and get to the next level. I see students often who have invested years of their lives in learning by rote, without understanding the underlying connections that would have made it all make so much more sense. Often, they've also labored under the mistaken belief that reading standard notation is difficult or impractical. What I (and others) are trying to do here is to help people get past the misconceptions that may be limiting their growth, and find learning habits that are going to pay greater dividends. 

the SOUNDS should generate the FINGERING
not the other way around

August W

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## jmcgann

> Quote (jmcgann @ Oct. 08 2007, 18:28)
> It's a mandolin. There aren't THAT many possibilities for fingerings/positions
> 
> For any musical piece there are as many finger positions as there are players.


Nah, untrue; as I stated, if you are working with first position fiddle tunes and you know the standard 1st position fingerings, unless you ignore convention or try to reinvent the wheel, there aren't many choices...not that tab even gives you the fingering!

The number of choices is way less than the number of players.

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## mythicfish

"What I (and others) are trying to do here is to help people get past the misconceptions that may be limiting their growth, and find learning habits that are going to pay greater dividends. "

August, all that you (and others) have said regarding the benefit of standard notation is true ... but until others actually expend the effort to learn it, I'm afraid you're preaching to the choir.
Folk don't like to be "informed against their will". So it goes.

Curt

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## JeffD

> But what if one is interested in learning the methods of another mandolinist? If you give me standard notation of his playing I will play it according to _my_ interpretation of that music. What I really want to know is how _he_ plays it.


I entirely agree with you on this. But that is why I don't care for tab. I don't want to sound almost as good as someone else, I want to have my own sound. Let others emulate me. (Well, I am not good enough for that, but you get the point.)

With standard notation I own the tune. With tab I know how somone else would have me play it.

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## JeffD

> There is too much emotion on this topic.
> If you are happy with your method then go for it.


I have to agree with that. 

To some, its the difference between learning the tune and learning the music (include me here.)

And to others its like the difference between automatic transmission and manual transmission, what ever you learned on is fine, both cars go.

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## JeffD

> I'm afraid you're preaching to the choir. Folk don't like to be "informed against their will".


There is truth to that.

This forum is like a huge banquet in a lot of ways. Spread before us are many gems of hard won international experience and advice and instruction we should have to shell out big bucks to acquire. We get to pick what we want from the table, or what we can use at a given time, and leave the rest. Perhaps we come back when we find we are not quite getting where we want, or perhaps not. But if we do come back there is never an "I told you so", just generously given advice.

I have chatted with and learned from folks here who in real life play so well they would intimidate me to the extent of inhibiting me from asking any questions. 

So if some decide to leave standard notation on the table - thats fine. I leave the anti-pinky planting advice on the table myself, and perhaps someday will come back for it, or not.

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## Klaus Wutscher

Isn´t it interesting how much emotion this topic is stirring up? I guess it´s the result of the snobery and reverse snobbery we were exposed to as children and as beginning players. There were some pathetic attemts by less than motivated music teachers in school to teach me standard notation. By the time I picked up electric guitar (15) I "knew" that standard notation was a tool for eunuchs to reassemble dead music. Of course, the attitude of the classical and jazz players I got to know didn´t help either.(not knocking down classical or jazz players in gerneral AT ALL - but everyone met some of those). I had a stubborn pride to refuse to learn standard notation and would probably still be relying on tab exclusively (if unhappily by now), if I had not been forced to learn it for my studies (they will kick me out otherwise). 

Now I can honestly say I wish I would have learned it ten years ago. Disregarding the pros and cons of each system, notation opens up a new world of music. Tab is like riding a bycicle - great fun, you get to see all the nice places around your area. Nothing wrong with it. But reading notation is like having a car. Expands your radius quite a bit...

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## Peter Hackman

> Now I can honestly say I wish I would have learned it ten years ago. Disregarding the pros and cons of each system, notation opens up a new world of music. Tab is like riding a bycicle - great fun, you get to see all the nice places around your area. Nothing wrong with it. But reading notation is like having a car. Expands your radius quite a bit...


Being a dedicated biker (and hiker), and having never driven a car I 
strongly disagree with your parable!

For some reason standard notation was taught in music classes when I went to school. Can't recall that we used that knowledge, although the books we sang from #often had the melody printed out. At the time I had no interest in music.
I have no natural talent for music, none whatever, 
 and there are no hereditary indictions as, e.g., my mother (1915-2005) was abolutely tonedeaf - a very rare property, indeed.

I absorbed the system, because the systematics appelaed to me. 
I really mean that: absorbed it, learned it #without putting it to practical use until years later. That's how easy it is, to anyone with a sense of symmetry and structure.

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## mythicfish

"That's how easy it is, to anyone with a sense of symmetry and structure"

That - in itself - is an indication of what we loosely refer to as talent.

Curt

----------

Why assume that I would want to play exactly like another? Ask any really great musician who his influences are/were. They won't say "Oh, I never have listened to any other musician, what I do is all my own." They will tell you who they listened to and who they listen to now. They take those influences and develop their own style.

If you truly do not wish to be influenced by any other musician you have no need at all for written music of any kind or for a CD player for that matter.

Why would anyone spend money on a book that gives them no information they can't get from listening to a CD or other recording? With the technology available today there is absolutely no reason to present only standard notation or only TAB. An author doesn't need to make the decision, he can present both and let the purchaser decide whether to use one or both.

Of course, the best source for accurate transcriptions is the player. There is a market for transcriptions and many people would be happy to buy a combination CD & transcription booklet from their favorite players.

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## AlanN

> Ask any really great musician who his influences are/were. They won't say "Oh, I never have listened to any other musician, what I do is all my own."


Jesse McReynolds said just that in an interview. Not that he 'never' listened, but that he doesn't now (at the time) listen to any other musician. I think he did that so as not to be influenced in his style gathering, music making, etc.

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## jmcgann

> Why assume that I would want to play exactly like another?



Umm... maybe because you said:




> What I really want to know is how he plays it.

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## jmcgann

For those who can't get enough of the debate:

The Steel Guitar Forum is having a similar discussion...

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"What I really want to know is how he plays it." Does not mean the same thing as "I want to play it the way he does." Why buy a book or take a lesson if you don't intend to learn something new?

Jesse McReynolds is 78 years old now. He's about got his style figured out. But, Jim and Jesse's sound and picking style was influenced by Bill Monroe, Earl Scruggs, and other pioneers of bluegrass, but the major catalyst for their music was the "singing brothers" phenomenon that flourished in the South during mid-century.

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## lgc

Heck, half the songs J+J did were Louvin Brothers tunes.

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## JeffD

I don't like snobbery and elitism. I have as little regard for anti-snobbery and anti-elitism, you know, those folks who take pride in not having or doing anything outstanding or intellectual. They are two sides of the same coin, not legitimate reactions to each other.

I also think that it is valuable to learn both tab and notation, but that is NOT saying that tab and notation are equivalent. Folks can disagree about which is best for them, and both sides may be correct, but it is objectively true that you give up more not learning notation than you give up not learning tab. Luckily you don't have to choose.

----------

In today's market I want BOTH standard notation and TAB. If a book doesn't have both I won't buy it.

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## jk245

> ... but until others actually expend the effort to learn it, I'm afraid you're preaching to the choir.
> Folk don't like to be "informed against their will". So it goes.
> 
> Curt


Well said
Amen!

.
.
.


The other road traveled, which so far has not been mentioned here is to play without reading anything, but rather play by repeating or interpreting what you hear.

There is a DVD on this method, where Dan's comments are worthwhile but the video is lack luster:

Dan Huckabee
"Musicians Workshop Presents
Formula of Music, Makes it so easy"

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## JimD

> In today's market I want BOTH standard notation and TAB. If a book doesn't have both I won't buy it.


But this can be carried to absurd levels too.

When I wrote my book, the editor insisted that every musical example included tab. *Even the chapter on learning to read standard notation.* He would not give in. In short, he made that particular chapter virtually useless.

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## Klaus Wutscher

> Originally Posted by  (Klaus Wutscher @ Oct. 09 2007, 03:50)
> 
> Now I can honestly say I wish I would have learned it ten years ago. Disregarding the pros and cons of each system, notation opens up a new world of music. Tab is like riding a bycicle - great fun, you get to see all the nice places around your area. Nothing wrong with it. But reading notation is like having a car. Expands your radius quite a bit...
> 
> 
> Being a dedicated biker (and hiker), and having never driven a car I 
> strongly disagree with your parable!


Funny is, I´m a dedicated biker too and hardly ever drove a car

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## ApK

> The other road traveled, which so far has not been mentioned here is to play without reading anything, but rather play by repeating or interpreting what you hear.


I continue to be baffled by the "other road" or "vs." mindset, as if you had to make a choice at a fork, and one method of learning had to "win out" over another.

Learn to play by ear. It's the only way to learn the true nature of a style.

Learn to read standard. It makes the most written music available to you and allows you communicate in writing with the most other muscians.

Learn to read tab. It's a simple, helpful tool for learning to play things on a given instrument, not to mention for sharing lick and tunes on online forums.

ApK

p.s. Who was it here that said "calling notation 'music' is like calling a recipe 'food.'?" I love that line.

ApK

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## Peter Hackman

> check out Matt Ekle of the David Grisman Quartet-
> true it's not really trad BG- but if anybody can pull it off -


To be exact, it's not bluegrass at all. However, there is, or used to be, a video on YouTube where S Bush sits in with Grisman on an old BG warhorse, Daybreak in Dixie. It's wonderful to hear how effortlessly Eakle applies his technique and background to this piece (the same goes for the drummer). In the end, what matters is 1) the tune, 2) the changes, and 3) the groove. I've done Monroe tunes with mandolin, bass, guitar, and vibraphone. I think the soprano sax would fit, as well.

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## Peter Hackman

> Young picker 30/40 years ago would have KILLED for all the mandolin methods, tune books, instruction books, DVDs...(and for a device to play them, of course) that gather dust on my shelf. How often did I really sit down to trascribe a song from a record? Hardly ever, because the information is readily available...


Even if you were to pick only 10% of your tunes from records it would greatly improve your understanding of the remaining 90%.

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## Peter Hackman

> People talk so much about the tab/notation thing here. #Use your ears. #They are the best tool a musician has.


It's always a good idea to remember the question before answering it.
The question was *not* about the optimal substitue for ears.

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## lgc

No, it was a question of how to learn music. If one doesn't agree with a dialect then one must brouden the choices.

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## Peter Hackman

> Well, if you know what to look for TAB would tell you the same thing.


Is that your *experience* or are you guessing? To relate the two systems in terms of legibility, it certainly helps to be familiar with both.

 If I see a page of sheet music there are several things that immediately structure my attention.
The time signature, the perceived
rhtymic complexity or simplicity, recurring motifs (repeated, deformed, transposed), the 
density or sparseness (or even non-existence) of accidentals, etc. 

 I doubt that even the most addicted TAB reader will see these things so quickly. If the key signature has a mixture of sharps and flats I will start thinking modal; if it has three flats and the piece ends on a c I will look closer to see where the piece has a minor flavor and where, if ever, it goes into the parallel major (chord symbols help a lot, of course!). And maybe, all of a sudden that c was not
the root of c minor but an added sixth!


Almost all the stuff I know on mando is my own invention, or things I picked up from records. If I ever learn from sheet music I usually 
just looked at the page and committed the tune to memory - which is often 
 possible once you see the strucure. 

I have learned exactly one tune from tab, for lack of a recording, Ashokan Farewell. It's the kind of song I would know after hearing it once (then it would take hours or even days to arrive at a personal take on it).
I would have it down in a matter of seconds from just looking at a lead sheet.
It certainly didn't take hours to get it from tab, but I was annoyed that it had to take any time at all. Not sure it was even worth the trouble. I'll know when I have an interesting arrangement


 I think tab - i.e., tab alone - relates to standard much the same as
a text without paragraphing, apostrophes, capitals and punctuation
does to a well-structured text.

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## JEStanek

Tab?
freshly seeded earth bed
produces stalks flowing silks
corn steams on my plate

Notation?
Till rows of good soil 18 inches apart. #Plant seeds in clusters and water regularly until maturity. #Harvest ears when the silks are dark brown. #Shuck the ears and boild for 5 minutes and serve.

I don't know, Pete, both have value to me. #I would feel diminished if my learning tools were limited to only haiku or only instructional manuals. #I find value in both and the use of both and practice of scales have helped me develop my ear training.

I've posted this before but it helps me make the transition from Tab to Notation and back the other way. #I used it primarily for writing scales.

Jamie

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I'm still surprised how many people are unaware of _modern_ tablature. It has the time signature, the key, the note durations and all the other information needed to play the tune - absolutely everything standard notation has except it is written specifically for one instrument.

I do speak from experience. I am familiar enough with the mandolin to know what notes are where. When I see a mandolin tab I _hear_ it in my head. I know what it will sound like when I play it. It isn't a mathematical exercise, it is music. 

If I feel the need to do some theoretical analysis of the music the standard notation does come in handy but I seldom feel that need.

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## emitfo

Standard Notation vs Tab

*Announcer* We're at the half-way point of our second OT period and it's still dead even! What a match! For you folks that may have missed it: When first we started it had all earmarks of a blow-out with the Standard Notation Dotties batting down the Tab Tabbies left and right! More versatile! Opens up new worlds! The Tabbies were reeling...not to mention jigging, jazzing and rockin' and rollin! Then the momentum shifted: I use both and both are useful! The Dotties were stunned! I can hear the Tab when I look at it too said the Tabbies! This is a game for the millennium folks! Battling it out on the sound boards of our lives--THIS is why they play the songs folks! Who will win? Have we all already won! Stay tuned while this callous inducing action continues....

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## AlanN

Late Breaking News!

It's a draw! The Tabbies were disqualified for using cream/clear, and the Dotties for biting the ear off their opponent!

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## jmcgann

> I'm still surprised how many people are unaware of modern tablature. It has the time signature, the key, the note durations and all the other information needed to play the tune - absolutely everything standard notation has except it is written specifically for one instrument.


Most tab-only readers _don't read rhythmic notation-_ it's not part of the tab learning process, it's part of the standard notation learning process.

How did you learn to read rhythmic notation?

Also, on which tab lines do you write the key signatures?

Someone should tell Finale and Sibelius about this "modern tablature", because those programs don't add the key signature or the time signature to tablature...they are pretty "modern" (at least, compared to the pencil...)

----------

OK John, you win. The deep dark mysteries of standard notation are MUCH better than the pure simplicity of tablature.

PS. You write the key signature above the tab at the beginning and wherever it changes. It is quite complicated, for G major you write "Key: G" or for A minor you write "Key: Am". You can also handle modals in the same way.

Music really doesn't need to be kept secret behind coding systems that were designed for other instruments.

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## ApK

> OK John, you win. The deep dark mysteries of standard notation are MUCH better than the pure simplicity of tablature.
> 
> PS. You write the key signature above the tab at the beginning and wherever it changes. It is quite complicated, for G major you write "Key: G" or for A minor you write "Key: Am". You can also handle modals in the same way.
> 
> Music really doesn't need to be kept secret behind coding systems that were designed for other instruments.


Great
-All 
Big 
-Cars
Dogs
-Eat
Fight 
-Gas
Animals

B
C (Middle)
D

Every
-F
Good
-A
Boy
-C
Does
-E
Fine

Secret coding revealed: #It's called A through G in alphabetical order.
I didn't realize it was such a deep dark mystery to some.
Heaven forbid we have a way to communicate with players of other instruments.

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## jmcgann

> OK John, you win. The deep dark mysteries of standard notation are MUCH better than the pure simplicity of tablature.


Yknow, pure simplicity has it's place, too. It just can function as over-simplification at times.

If standard notation were that cryptic, how come 4th grade can deal with it? If it's THAT deep, dark, and mysterious to anyone, they just haven't found the right approach to understanding it...




> PS. You write the key signature above the tab at the beginning and wherever it changes. It is quite complicated, for G major you write "Key: G" or for A minor you write "Key: Am". You can also handle modals in the same way.


And what does "A minor" mean to someone who has only learned tab? Or "B flat minor" for that matter? It's not necessarily the first chord...what if it's a modal tune? It's not the key of Am if it has a D chord in it...what do you write? "D dorian"? Would that mean as much as "Felix the Cat" to someone who doesn't deal with theory (which IS taught in the notation language)? 

I'm only busting you on claims that you make saying that tab is equal in getting across information. It isn't, because some of the information is not going to be understood by someone who hasn't learned the basics of so-called theory (which ought to be called 'practice' anyway). No need to be so defensive! I am not anti-tab, i just think the tab defenders don't always know that there is a more elegant way to communicate notes and pitches (note that I didn't say _music_)- _not to mention rhythm!_

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## ApK

> And what does "A minor" mean to someone who has only learned tab? Or "B flat minor" for that matter? It's not necessarily the first chord...what if it's a modal tune? It's not the key of Am if it has a D chord in it...


On the other hand, since tab is telling you exactly which frets to press, you're being impicitly shown which notes to play sharp or flat.

I'd say the LACK of key signatures is one of the things that MAKES tab easier.
For me, remembering which notes to flatten or sharpen is one of my biggest hurdles in learning to read standard proficiently.

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## jmcgann

> On the other hand, since tab is telling you exactly which frets to press, you're being impicitly shown which notes to play sharp or flat.


Compared to what? If that tab-only person doesn't know the name of the notes, that information doesn't mean anything. The number doesn't take a plus or minus sign, so how would you know? Unless you memorized EVERY position for EVERY major scale, and then took note of how the line deviates from that scale, how can you compare and contrast, other than by ear (which is not the fail-safe mechanism most people think them to be without a lot of work)?

Not that it matters if you are just trying to play the thing- it only matters if you want to get under the hood. Lots of people are happy to drive and not open the hood.

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## ApK

Right. #It's implict. #Follow the tab and you are playing the correct notes for the key without knowing it.

Is the lack of that explicit info more limiting to your understanding and anticipation of the music? #Yes.

Is it easier for person to learn to play a tune off the paper? #Yes.

ApK

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## jmcgann

Agreed. Let's all go out for beer with the folks from that other thread

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## lgc

here here, lone stah for all.

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## David Lloyd

Tab or Notation?
I first listen to the song that I am wanting to learn for at least a week or month before really trying to play it. Over and Over and Over and Over. #At that point it really doesn't matter to me if the score is tab or notation. What seems more important to me is to spend my time improving my knowledge of the fretboard and playing lots and lots of scales. And..I keep beer close by!
Quote "Relax..Don't worry , have a homebrew" Charlie Papazian
Dave

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## MandoSquirrel

But, with notation(or tab with stems), one can learn the tune immediately, without EVER hearing it before. No need to wait a month!

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## jk245

I l-o-v-e this topic.

If you search the Board, no matter how many times it is brought up, you will find that it brings out (in high emotion) the most 'love' and 'dis-love' of anything else.

Come back next month for another battle.
.
.
.

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## JeffD

A man and his wife were arguing about this very topic. They came to an impasse and decided to ask the old guru that lived on the mountain top.

So the husband trudged up the mountain, got an audience with the old wise man, and explained to him all the advantages of tab, that you could learn the tune immediately and start making music right away, without getting a degree in musicology, etc., and so tab must be the best system. The old man looked up at him and replied:

You are absolutely right.

So the man gleefully ran down the hill and told his wife. She could not believe her ears! The guru must have mis-understood, or you explained it in a biased manner. I am going to go up there myself and see what he says. 

So she climbed up the mountain and got an audience with the old wise man. She explained all the advantage of notation, that you could read so much more than what finger to put where, and that the world of written music from every genre and every other instrument was immediately available to you etc., and so notation must be the best system. The old man looked up at her and replied:

You are absolutely right.

So she ran down the hill and told her husband how she had cleared it all up and the wise man had saw it her way. He was flabbergasted. He insisted that she had just cowed him, or had been entirely one sided in her explanation. Lets go up together and see what he says.

So they both went up the hill and got an audience with the guru. My husband came up here and explained how tab was best and you said he was right, then when I explained my side, that notation was best you said I was right. Look here, we cant both be right!! The old man looked up at them and replied:

You are absolutely right.

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## sinebar

> Tab or Notation?
> I first listen to the song that I am wanting to learn for at least a week or month before really trying to play it. Over and Over and Over and Over. #At that point it really doesn't matter to me if the score is tab or notation. What seems more important to me is to spend my time improving my knowledge of the fretboard and playing lots and lots of scales. And..I keep beer close by!
> Quote "Relax..Don't worry , have a homebrew" Charlie Papazian
> Dave


That's what is so great about standard and tab. It saves me the drudgery of having to listen, play, listen to a tune over and over and over and over again. Heck by the time I learn a tune that way I don't want to play it anymore. Some tunes I can hear just once and play them. But most I can't so I'm thankful for standard notation or tab.

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## David Lloyd

Sure. with tab or notation I can play the song immediately. But I will need the tab or notation next time that I want to play it. My memory is not as good as it used to be. It is very hard to read notation by campfire light  I keep my mp3 player loaded with several songs. So in the month or so that I am listening, I am usually working on a half dozen other songs. 
Dave
If I had to choose between tab or notation...Notation

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## ApK

> Tab or Notation?
> I first listen to the song that I am wanting to learn for at least a week or month before really trying to play it.


But that limits you to songs that you have recordings of. #And, anyway, doesn't depending on post-Edison technology make you feel all non-folky and untraditional and dirty?

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## David Lloyd

I actually feel pretty clean..lol
Most all of the songs that I want to learn are classic rock from the 70's and 80's.
With youtube and other sources I haven't had much trouble finding recordings of songs that I want to learn, if I don't already have them on vinyl. I am currently working on "Hey Mr. Spaceman" and "Casey Jones" I am somewhere between a beginner an intermediate in my playing. Although "Fur Elise" is on my list to learn. Talk about timing issues! Notation is definitely the choice on that one. 
The only music not on my list to learn is rap...I just don't get it.
Dave
I forgot to mention -&gt; I LOVE BLUEGRASS AND NEWGRASS!

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## jk245

> Sure. with tab or notation I can play the song immediately. But I will need the tab or notation next time that I want to play it. My memory is not as good as it used to be. It is very hard to read notation by campfire light


My memory is so bad that even by listening I can not play the stuff, but, I can play from the written score (TAB). Regarding illumination, we have lights in the closet so that I can play without bothering the family.

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## Jack Roberts

I love this warring over tab and notation. After 5 years of playing from both, I can truly say I am glad for both. 

First, I'll tell you a secret. Notation isn't hard. Start with the Key of G, and recognize that the open strings are played on every other "open space" starting with two little lines below the bottom long line. Any other note is just somewhere between.

With violin or piano, there is no substitute for notation, but for mandolin, it is really handy to use tab, because you can play the same notes on more than one string. Sometimes it is a lot easier to play up the neck on the G and D strings then on the D and A strings. You can get neat "cross picking" sounds when you play up the neck, as well, and the best way to keep track of where to play is with tab.

Enjoy the music.

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## Peter Hackman

> Originally Posted by  (jmcgann @ Oct. 11 2007, 11:57)
> 
> And what does "A minor" mean to someone who has only learned tab? Or "B flat minor" for that matter? It's not necessarily the first chord...what if it's a modal tune? It's not the key of Am if it has a D chord in it...
> 
> 
> On the other hand, since tab is telling you exactly which frets to press, you're being impicitly shown which notes to play sharp or flat.
> 
> I'd say the LACK of key signatures is one of the things that MAKES tab easier.
> For me, remembering which notes to flatten or sharpen is one of my biggest hurdles in learning to read standard proficiently.


But that's not the way to read! If I play in, say, the key of Eb, from sheet music, I don't remember to flatten the a or b or e every time the appear.
I'm in he key of Eb, how could I possibly forget that? There simply 
are no a's or e's or b's to flatten ! The note on the second space isn't as much a flattened a as the fourth degree of the scale.

So there's reading, and there's reading. Reading, properly learned, structures the fingerboard and the page the moment you see the key signature. I'm happy I approached reading that way because it makes transposition much easier.

When I was a beginner, almost 50 years ago, I played a lot with a friend who played the tenor saxophone. We played standards from his Bb books, so I had to learn to transpose down a whole step on the spot! Without a structured approach I could never have done that. Then, of course, he switched to baritone, so I had to learn to transpose up a minor third (which is actually easier).

I only rarely use written sources. Recently I wanted to work up Missouri Waltz 
in the key of D. I had heard it on radio more than 40 years ago so I remembered about 2/3 of the melody, and all of the changes. Someone 
on the Cafe
pointed to a piano score in F. It was a matter of seconds to fill in the gaps.
Right now I want to work up Sobre las olas which I learned from Pee Wee King's recording many years ago, in F. Again there were gaps, and I will presently fill them as I have downloaded the sheet music in G.

That said, standard notation can be rendered illegible if you wish.
 I checked Mandozine's transcription of the Moonlight Waltz (which I certainly learned by ear, 25 years ago). It's in F, but long stretches of it are actually in d minor. How could one get the idea of notating the c# as db? - that's a violation of the simple rule that in major/minor keys you *DO NOT*  notate two different scale notes on the same line or space. A c#-e doublestop by this silly notation looks like a second, not a third! 

And someone had the idea of notating Jesse Polka in the octave above the staff. That's sadism!!

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## ApK

Where's this war and extreme emotion folks are talking about?  This thread doesn't even seem to move the needle on my flame-o-meter.

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## ApK

> But that's not the way to read! If I play in, say, the key of Eb, from sheet music, I don't remember to flatten the a or b or e every time the appear.
> I'm in he key of Eb, how could I possibly forget that? There simply 
> are no a's or e's or b's to flatten !


That would suggest you shouldn't try to read standard until you know all the scales reflexively. That would be reason enough to turn someone off standard. 

Typical method books don't require you have that knowledge of scales before learning to read. Quite the contrary, they suggest you use standard notation to read the exercises to help learn the scales in the first place.

Or wait...this is supposed to be an emotion-charged war. Let me start again:

How dare you tell me it's not the way to read!!

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## Peter Hackman

> Originally Posted by  (ddlj60 @ Oct. 11 2007, 13:15)
> 
> Tab or Notation?
> I first listen to the song that I am wanting to learn for at least a week or month before really trying to play it.
> 
> 
> But that limits you to songs that you have recordings of. #And, anyway, doesn't depending on post-Edison technology make you feel all non-folky and untraditional and dirty?


Folk is dirty, technology is clinical. Apart from that you're right. And I love it.

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## Peter Hackman

> Originally Posted by  (Peter Hackman @ Oct. 13 2007, 00:39)
> 
> But that's not the way to read! If I play in, say, the key of Eb, from sheet music, I don't remember to flatten the a or b or e every time the appear.
> I'm in he key of Eb, how could I possibly forget that? There simply 
> are no a's or e's or b's #to flatten !
> 
> 
> That would suggest you shouldn't try to read standard until you know all the scales reflexively. #That would be reason enough to turn someone off standard. #
> 
> ...


There are goals, and there are routes to goals. The route is pedagogy, a question how learning is best organized and aided, and that is not my area of competence. But if reading notation is to have any musical significance the goal should be to read in a structured way, enabling you to hear, or at least form a mental picture of a muscial piece from just looking at the score.

Just think of the number of pieces you never have to attempt because they stink already on paper!

I believe I have recounted this before, about a party at home with a colleague of mine. We all had instruments and she produced a Beethoven score and wanted me to play the cello part (I think) on guitar. The key was F and she mistakenly played a b on her violin where there should have been a bb. She excused herself, sorry I forgot to flatten that b. Later #she produced another piece and I started to read the score. Hm, two flats, # Bb, #then, reading further, no, looks more like g minor, actually. She was shocked. She had been playing the violin for maybe 20 years and she had never approached a score in that manner. 

 I was shocked, too.

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## mandelect

Made up a tune a couple of years ago; something I was really pleased with, so I wrote it out in standard notation. Realised early this year, that I'd not played it for over 12 months - heard most of the notes in my head but needed the notation to fill out the details. Looked at my score but the trouble was, it still didn't sound right; the tune used lots of crosspicking passages, up and down the neck. So I tried to figure out how I'd originally played it - never could get it to sound the same again. If I'd tabbed it out there would have been no problem! 

Okay, perhaps the tune didn't deserve to be remembered - but hopefully, you get the point!

I've learned a good few Irish tunes and they still look better to me in standard notation. I would hate to learn some of Jesse McReynolds more complicated crosspicking tunes from standard notation. Possible, yes - but it would usually take longer to work out the correct finger positions, in order get that signature ringing roll.

If you happen to be a gigging, or session musician, would it not be wise to be familiar with both TAB and standard notation? Maybe a little knowledge of Figured Bass would also be useful, along with an understanding of Jazz chord sheets. If I want to learn a tune badly enough, I'll take anything you can give me. TAB vs Standard Notation; does it matter? They are all just tools!!!!

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## jmcgann

> If you happen to be a gigging, or session musician, would it not be wise to be familiar with both TAB and standard notation?


You will never see tab at a (professional) recording session.

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## mandelect

> You will never see tab at a (professional) recording session.


Bit of a sweeping statement John - have you attended them all? # #

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## JimD

> Quote
> You will never see tab at a (professional) recording session.
> 
> 
> Bit of a sweeping statement John - have you attended them all?


John is right. You will not see tab in any professional recording sessions.

Nor will you see it in pit orchestras etc.

I have played a wide variety of gigs and have *never* been handed a tablature to read from.

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## jmcgann

Mandelect- tab is not used by anyone other than guitarists,steel guitarists, lute players, mandolin and banjo players. It is not learned by composers or arrangers.

It is used by some people who play "folk" and rock music. Even then, most Irish/Scottish/Scandanavian musicians read notation if they read anything. It is not used by classical (except for lute tab, which is WAY more complicated than today's tab)or jazz players.

Unless the recording session was a mandolin orchestra (and how many of them use tab instead of standard?), you won't see them.

And yes, I have been to *every* recording session on the planet *(twice)*

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## mandelect

> You will never see tab at a (professional) recording session.


John, intellectually you have no argument; you simply do not know this to be universally true. You cannot, for one moment, expect us all to believe that in all the history of professional recording sessions, not one single person has ever turned up with a piece of TAB - just doesn't make any kind of sense. Has it not occured to you, that I may have attended a professional recording session where TAB was indeed in evidence?

John, I've never seen you at a professional recording session; now that doesn't mean that you haven't participated in a great many, does it? 

I've never seen a Alpine horn at a professional recording session - that doesn't mean that some Richard Strauss fan isn't out there right now, Alpine horn and all.

I've never seen a one-eared guy at a professional recording session #.....who knows?

There's obviously some TAB related bigotry going on here! It should be about the music, nothing else. Notation, TAB, Figured Bass, The Amazing Slow Downer, and our ears - they are all just tools!!!!

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## jmcgann

I'm not a bigot, pal. That's just the truth. Believe whatever you want. I'm sure somewhere in some recording studio someone used tab sometime-OK?

However, my statement was in a _professional context._

 I'll modify my quote-

A professional recording session player (or pit musician) has (probably) never been handed a piece of tab to sight read in a paid, under pressure recording situation. It is not the language spoken by arrangers or composers.

Go ahead and argue...

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## mandelect

You may not be a bigot John, but you are clearly wrong on this one!

TAB is used in some professional recording environments, period.

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## JeffD

> I've never seen a one-eared guy at a professional recording session #.....who knows?


Are we arguing philosophy or the professional use or non use of tab?

I have never seen a zebra in Ft. Worth Texas. I will admit that if I hear hoof beats in Ft. Worth it might be a zebra, but that's not what I am going to bet. And if I were to put on my western wear and saddle up - while there is no law against it, I know how I'll be received riding a zebra.

C'mon.

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## jmcgann

> TAB is used in some professional recording environments, period.


Do tell!

I'm not talking about a band going into a studio; I'm talking about musicians who make a living getting paid to go into recording studios. Who writes the tab for them?

If you are a professional musician yourself, maybe you could share your experiences of seeing tab in the studio firsthand.

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## mandelect

I'm not talking about 'a band going into a studio', I'm talking about professional recording sessions - and not just mandolin recording sessions either.

TAB is alive and well, and in use in some professional recording environments! Just trying to make a polite point here, ...that you can't possibly be in all places at all times. So please, no sweeping statements # 

John I'm sorry if I offended you by my suggestion of bigotry!

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## mandocrucian

_"Thank goodness I don't have to choose between Tab and Duff! (belllchhh!) Or do I?"_



_"Yeah Yeah Yeah.... Enuff talk already! Talk break is over. You want to argue, you gotta buy more drinks!"_

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## Peter Hackman

So you believe - or even know - there are arrangers who go to the trouble of tabbing out parts for a reading session musician, when standard is so much faster to both. Surely there are informal studio settings and informal means of communicating in the studio, such as chord charts and playing phrases on the piano, or even humming them,
or simply suggestions indicating the general sound or mood desired. But tab seems very farfetched in that kind of situation. 

Actually we can't take for granted that an arranger knows exactly what the possibilites are on an instrument, although I'm sure they know the tuning(s), range, etc. Laurindo Almeida once walked up to Dimitri Tiomkin during a break in a recording session and humbly pointed out that Tiomkin had written a chord with 7 notes, whereas a guitar was capable of producing only 6.

The anser was simply "shut up, kid, I'm paying you double scale to do your best; go back and do your job".

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## JimD

> I'm not talking about 'a band going into a studio', I'm talking about professional recording sessions - and not just mandolin recording sessions either.
> 
> TAB is alive and well, and in use in some professional recording environments!


I'd like to know more about this. Please describe the session(s) in question to us.

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## mandelect

I agree Pete; why would an arranger Tab out a part for a reading session musician; there would be no point - but there are professional musicians who don't read, either notation or tablature. Maybe they are in a minority but they do exist, and why the assumption that arrangers are always present at professional recording sessions?

In my reply to John's comment, I wasn't talking about Tab in a mandolin only context. Lutenists were mentioned; are some not professional musicians who, in turn, attend professional recording sessions? It doesn't matter that Lute tablature is 'WAY more complicated than today's TAB' - if it's in use somewhere professionally then it's in use.

I read music, probably not as well as most of you, but I do use notation almost every day. Despite this I still Tab lots of stuff out, both for mandolin and for Chapman Stick, which is also 'WAY more complicated than today's Tab'. Besides, what actually is "today's Tab"? 

Tab is anything a string playing musician wants it to be - it's a tool and it's useful. You can customise it for your instrument; you can add any relevant performance notes without worrying about the conventions used in standard notation. It can convey just about anything that regular notation can, except the freedom to improvise.

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## JimD

I'd still like an example.

I get the impression that it is either a hunch you have that someone out there is using it -- or perhaps wishful thinking.

We all agree that there are professionals that don't read notation. What John and I are talking about is that in certain kinds of professional situations (recording among them), you simply do not see tab.

If you choose not to learn to read notes, there will be certain types of professional work that will not be available to you.

By the way, I play lute too and know many lute players. We all read several types of tab and notation too -- grand staff, treble and bass as well as C clefs. Any situation that I have been in which involved either new music for the lute or specific arrangements of pieces has involved notation and not tab.

Often that notation was figured bass...

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## mandelect

Btw, I am not a professional musician, though I have had the privilege of attending a few professional recording sessions. No it's not a hunch I have; I did witness tab being used to demonstrate a different way of playing a particular phrase. The guitarist actually read notation; he was shown an alternative way of playing a phrase and tabbed it out himself. Don't ask me why - you would have thought he could remember it after being shown once.

Sorry I don't understand the "wishfull thinking" comment Jim. As I explained, I'm perfectly comfortable with most standard notation. Tab is very useful for indicating finger positions when playing out of first position, and especially when crosspicking on the mandolin. My Chapman Stick has 10 strings and tablature is again very useful for indicating finger positions.

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## JimD

Tabbing a phrase out for himself is a very different thing than being given a tab to read.

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## jmcgann

If you saw a guitarist tabbing something for himself, it's semantics- sure, tab was 'used in the studio', but not in the sense that a player came in and was handed a chart of tab to read down.




> TAB is alive and well, and in use in some professional recording environments!


I'm talking about a *session musician getting paid* to come in and read a chart. The odds of them seeing tab written by _anyone else_ (OK, no arranger on the site!) are nearly nil. I'm not talking about someone being handed notation and then tabbing it for themselves- recording sessions run on someone else's dime don't allow for someone to hold up the proceedings to recopy a part in tab while everyone else waits.

Tab is an arcane style of notation that is not used in actual practice in a professional recording or performing environment- *it is used as a learning tool. Not as a performance medium; not in film/TV music, not in orchestras, not in shows...nowhere but the practice room and in learning materials and transcriptions specifically for aforementioned instruments.*

It's not a slam on tab. It's an observation the state of tab in the professional musician's world.
---------------

Modern tab vs. historical styles of tab:

Regarding lute tab, I have a neat edition of a collection from the 1500s that has the music written in tab, grand staff notation, and standard notation for guitar. The lute tab look like this:

5
g
_
1

Each string gets a number, then each fret gets an alphabet letter, _across_ the first fret reads a b c d e- one letter for each string. See the image:



This looks harder than standard notation or modern tablature to me...by the time you memorized that grid, you could have learned the grand staff and be set for life on any instrument!

People often use "tab has been around longer than standard notation" as an argument for it's superiority, but as you can see, older isn't always better.

I agree about using it for crosspicking, but I'd still use notation if i wrote it for myself (using circled numbers to indicate what string a note is on). I'd also use it for pedal steel and if I played the Stick I would too- along with standard on top.

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## JimD

John -- that's German tab, the most difficult kind, at least for me -- but I probably just never got used to it. There are also French, Italian, Spanish and Neapolitan tablatures --each distinct from each other in some ways.

That is why many lutenists actually prefer to read grand staff (treble and bass) notation...

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## jmcgann

Ja. Das ist der difficulter!

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## JimD

What always gets me about German tab is how the 6th course (which was added after the system developed) has a "system all its own".

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## mandelect

John, I agree we are arguing semantics here. I also agree that it is unlikely that you would ever see a professional session musician being handed a sheet of tab. However you did say that 


> You will never see tab at a (professional) recording session.


 I was making simply making a polite point that I'd witnessed it being used as a tool in a professional recording studio, and with a professional musician. I never once claimed that conductors, arrangers, musical directors, or indeed, session musicians used it in performance of their session duties.

I do still stand by my statement that it would be wise, at least as a professional string musician, to have some knowledge of tablature. You don't have to use it in the studio, but surely as a teacher, you would find tab to be a usefull tool at times?

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## mandelect

> I agree about using it for crosspicking, but I'd still use notation if i wrote it for myself (using circled numbers to indicate what string a note is on). I'd also use it for pedal steel and if I played the Stick I would too- along with standard on top.


Interesting point John - when I write out tab, I always notate the piece conventionally too. Theoretically, it's possible to convey the same information about the music with both methods, but there is something about the look of conventional notation, which seems to make the flow of a piece seem more obvious - to me, at least!

I also use conventional notation with circled numbers above, to indicate suggested fingerings. Works better for me when notating jigs, reels and the like - though that is usually just an excersise, as I've usually learnt the thing by ear long before I decide to archive it.

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## JimD

> John, I agree we are arguing semantics here. I also agree that it is unlikely that you would ever see a professional session musician being handed a sheet of tab. However you did say that
> Quote
> You will never see tab at a (professional) recording session.
> I was making simply making a polite point that I'd witnessed it being used as a tool in a professional recording studio, and with a professional musician. I never once claimed that conductors, arrangers, musical directors, or indeed, session musicians used it in performance of their session duties.


It does cloud the issue somewhat, doesn't it? #What you describe is one musician's way of visualizing a passage.




> I do still stand by my statement that it would be wise, at least as a professional string musician, to have some knowledge of tablature. You don't have to use it in the studio, but surely as a teacher, you would find tab to be a usefull tool at times?


Yes, but rarely.

With my beginning students, I use it just to introduce a few basic exercises while they learn to read the notes -- with beginners, this is easily accomplished while learning some easy tunes.

 I move my more advanced students to notation as soon as possible. It facilitates any discussion of theory and, for those who are contemplating a career in music, it is simply part of their basic literacy. 

Several of my students have told me that they find the tab/notation combinations found in many books to be distracting. Those who are trying to learn to read notation feel that their efforts are compromised by having the tab on the page.

We won't be changing that any time soon -- like I said in an earlier post, book publishers even want tab on the pages that involve learning to read notation.

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## jmcgann

> was making simply making a polite point that I'd witnessed it being used as a tool in a professional recording studio, and with a professional musician. I never once claimed that conductors, arrangers, musical directors, or indeed, session musicians used it in performance of their session duties.


It would be misleading to let anyone aspiring to a career in music functioning outside concert/club performances or recording in a rehearsed band situation to infer that tab is EVER used in situations where you are a 'hired gun', other than a player using tab to help themselves (and in most situations, they'd get busted for doing it on the clock)- it just doesn't happen.





> I do still stand by my statement that it would be wise, at least as a professional string musician, to have some knowledge of tablature. You don't have to use it in the studio, but surely as a teacher, you would find tab to be a usefull tool at times?


Seeing as it takes two minutes to have a "knowledge of tablature" (what's to know? The strings are the lines and the frets are the numbers) I'd say it's a given that anyone can figure it out instantly.

As a teacher: I de-emphasize tab to the point where I can say the ONLY times I've used it is when a student refuses to deal with notation- and that would have been in the 1980's.Since then, my teaching is 95% direct-to-student by ear, unless we are working on developing sight reading skills or working with classical music and/or jazz transcriptions- but I insist that students learning Bach on mando check out as many recorded versions as possible, to hear how different players phrase the music- this means listening to violinists, cellists, flute players etc. Ditto for the jazz transcriptions- you see all the melodic/harmonic content there, but it's essential to play along with the recording to cop the feel and phrasing and MUSIC. 

I use notation at Berklee where it is useful for laying out chord structures and scales for improvisation (and where students HAVE to learn to read notes), but I rarely use any notation or tab for teaching tunes. In my labs, I have students learn tunes by ear, because I don't want them just 'reciting the notes'. The rhythmic feel, inflection of time and accents, etc. are all things that transcend notation. Once they have done that, I might hand out a lead sheet (in notation, no tab) so they can see how the player deviates from the 'road map'. Since most fiddle tune music is in first position, in a handful of keys, it's not rocket surgery to figure it out.

It's not so much that I am "against tab", but if a person reads notation, notation gets across everything that tab does- and if you add string number indications and fingerings (which, BTW, tab does usually NOT provide- actually showing you which finger goes where rather than just the fret numbers). When a person learns a modest amount of theory, they see much more on the page (how the notes relate to the chord of the moment) than tab would reveal. 

Not too many people can sight sing from tab- but if you can do it with notation, you are relating to the sounds indicated on the page without an instrument. That's a good skill-to ba able to pre-hear what is about to happen on the instrument. That's one of the most valuable skills for improvisation.

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## JeffD

Wow, I didn't know there was German, French, Italian and Spanish tab.

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## JeffD

Something I wondered about.

In fiddle and violin music (notation) that goes up the neck, there will be sometimes be a little number above the note, indicating the finger to be used at that location. I guess you could do this with tab but it would be confusing. What do they do in tab to indicate a particular finger?

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## jmcgann

> What do they do in tab to indicate a particular finger?


Hi Jeff- In standard notation, finger numbers are written alongside the note. In tab, I'd put it underneath the tab staff. If it were stacked notes like a chord, I'd stack the fingerings as well. I haven't seen actual fingerings written in most of the tab I've seen, but it can be done...it just starts looking like algebra after awhile (and I'm pretty lame at math myself!)

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## ApK

In Elan Chalford's fiddle tab system (which I posted a link to earlier) the number written on the string line refers to the finger to use, and assumes standard major scale positioning. I think he puts a little H or L if the finger needs to move to it's other possible position.

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## mandelect

Jim, why does it cloud the issue? Does it matter that tab is used rarely? If it's still used then it is a valid tool. Why deny yourself or others an alternative perspective?

If we are talking about a professional musicians use of tab, especially when related to the mandolin, then you only have to look at Andy Statman's "Jesse McReynolds - Mandolin" from Oak Publications. He chose to use tablature alone, to indicate how Jesse's music should be played. This, I suspect, has a lot to do with Jesse's crosspicking stuff; I would have preferred standard notation as well. In Andy's book there are a few studies of Jesse's string splitting technique; tablature surely explains this technique more efficiently? You're not going to attempt to convince me that Andy Statman isn't a professional musician, are you?

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## JimD

It clouds the issue because tabbing something out for oneself is a matter of their own approach in getting the job done -- remembering a fingering etc. It is not the same as being handed a tabbed part to read from -- that doesn't happen in the types of situations described. if someong thinks they'll be able to get along in thoses situations by reading tab, they are in for a rude awakening.

This is not a prejudice, it is a fact.

I am not denying anyone an alternative perspective -- least of all myself -- I don't use it because I don't need it. I find that standard notation is entirely adequate to my needs as a player and composer. I find some use for tab as a teacher -- usually only long enough to move my students on to notation. In terms of publishing, I find tab to be an irritant and an obstacle to pedagogy in many cases. 

When it comes to hiring people to perform, I hire people who can do the job -- for my purposes, that means being able to read notes. I am not going to tab things out for anyone in a professional situation. That would be a waste of my time and it would mean that I had a player who was not up to the task.

If it helps you, use it by all means. I am just saying that there are many professional situations in which tab will not help in the slightest but good reading ability will. If that kind of work doesn't interest you, don't worry about it.

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## JimD

> If we are talking about a professional musicians use of tab, especially when related to the mandolin, then you only have to look at Andy Statman's "Jesse McReynolds - Mandolin" from Oak Publications. He chose to use tablature alone, to indicate how Jesse's music should be played. This, I suspect, has a lot to do with Jesse's crosspicking stuff; I would have preferred standard notation as well. In Andy's book there are a few studies of Jesse's string splitting technique; tablature surely explains this technique more efficiently? You're not going to attempt to convince me that Andy Statman isn't a professional musician, are you?


Come now -- I am not disparaging anyone's musicianship. Why don't you just pull out the tired old "Bill Monroe didn't read notes"? #or what about "oh yeah, but classical players don't improvise"...

I have a feeling that the choice of tab in some of these books has more to do with the realities of the publishing world than with choice. It has already been pointed out that publishers won't print anything without tab.

Notation (with a few added fingering indications) can adequately express things like crosspicking and string splitting. Techniques like string splitting actually go back about 200 years (if I remember correctly) and were notated quite clearly without tab.

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## mandelect

But there are still situations in which professional musicians choose to use tab; I'd rather learn from the wisdom and soul of someone like Andy Statman anyday!

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## JimD

Sure -- whatever you say. Tab is great...

P.S. -- I have enormous respect for Andy Statman.

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## mandelect

Me too  

Still listen to Flatbush Waltz, and I still love the variety of moods and expressions Andy conjures up, not to mention his technique. I still remember receiving my copy of Frets in the early 80's? - the issue where David Grisman had so kindly tabbed out (and notated) Flatbush Waltz - joy, oh joy

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## jmcgann

> If we are talking about a professional musicians use of tab


No one said "professionals never use tab".

Actually, this whole banter began with you saying how _tab was used in the studio._ Of course, it is used widely _OUTSIDE_ of recording studios- as I said, for learning purposes, mostly by those who don't (or won't) read standard notation. It's alive and thriving in that way, alive and thriving in many teaching environments and much (most?) of today's publishing world (again, as a teaching tool).

It's non-existent in professional recording and performing environments. As Jim said:




> if someone thinks they'll be able to get along in those situations by reading tab, they are in for a rude awakening.
> 
> This is not a prejudice, it is a fact.


This is good for those who might like to become session players (outside of ear based music like bluegrass) or pit players to be aware of. These kinds of jobs help feed families and keep musicians afloat. It's not a value judgement on tablature. It's the _way the professional musician's world works, like it or not_. 

Not everyone wants to or needs to be a 'professional'. I'd rather see someone use tab and be able to play- but unless they develop their ears, they are going to be lost anyway, whether it's tab OR standard notation. I'd rank the ear way higher in importance to reading; but after that, I'd say theory to the point of understanding what you are playing and why it works. That, my friends, is not taught in the language of tablature.



-----------------------------------------------------

One thing we agree on: Andy Statman is the greatest! I transcribed Andy's solo on Thelonious Monk's "Skippy" for Frets in the 80's; if you can find it and the recording it came from (Swinggrass '82 I think it was called) you are in for a mind bending treat!

----------


## JeffD

> But there are still situations in which professional musicians choose to use tab; I'd rather learn from the wisdom and soul of someone like Andy Statman anyday!


Andy Statman is awesome.

I don't know if he uses tab or not, and I don't know if he reads notation or not, but I can assure you: his brilliance in playing and in composition are not due to useing tab.

----------


## mando.player

Unless there is a TAB system for clarinet, I'd have to assume that Andy can read notation quite well.

----------


## JimD

> Still listen to Flatbush Waltz, and I still love the variety of moods and expressions Andy conjures up, not to mention his technique. I still remember receiving my copy of Frets in the early 80's? - the issue where David Grisman had so kindly tabbed out (and notated) Flatbush Waltz - joy, oh joy


Great tune -- I learned it by ear...

----------


## jmcgann

I don't want to speak for Andy, but I do know him a little, and I can tell you he is not particularly fond of notation in any form.

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## mandelect

John, this banter did not begin with: 


> Actually, this whole banter began with you saying how tab was used in the studio.


.

My first comment in this thread ended with the statement:


> If you happen to be a gigging, or session musician, would it not be wise to be familiar with both TAB and standard notation? Maybe a little knowledge of Figured Bass would also be useful, along with an understanding of Jazz chord sheets. If I want to learn a tune badly enough, I'll take anything you can give me. TAB vs Standard Notation; does it matter? They are all just tools!!!!


My choice of words 


> ...If you happen to be a gigging, or session musician...


 was a little unwise. I should have said "If you happen to be a professional musician..." That would have certainly been more accurate.

Nowhere in that paragraph, did I claim that Tab was used in the studio by professional musicians! It was only after your very sweeping follow up remark: 


> You will never see tab at a (professional) recording session.


, which you still cannot possibly substantiate, that I made the observation that I had witnessed it's use (once) by a professional musician in a professional recording environment. 




> Great tune -- I learned it by ear...


Jim, good for you. At the time I was a beginning mandolin player and I'd already worked out many tunes by ear. I found the notation & tab for Flatbush Waltz to be very useful. I use standard notation almost everyday - tablature too! ...and that's my point; they are both valid tools.

----------


## mandelect

> Not everyone wants to or needs to be a 'professional'. I'd rather see someone use tab and be able to play- but unless they develop their ears, they are going to be lost anyway, whether it's tab OR standard notation.


Ear training / interval training, they are all very important tools for anyone serious about music / music theory ... but this discussion is really about "Standard notation vs tab".

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> Not everyone wants to or needs to be a 'professional'. I'd rather see someone use tab and be able to play- but unless they develop their ears, they are going to be lost anyway, whether it's tab OR standard notation.
> 
> 
> Ear training / interval training, they are all very important tools for anyone serious about music / music theory ... but this discussion is really about "Standard notation vs tab".


The original - somewhat confused - question is whether tab was 
of any help in #understanding the fretboard to someone who already knows notation. 

And the answer is still: tab is musically meaningless to someone who doesn't already know the fretboard.

----------


## mandelect

Agreed Pete. You certainly have to know what a fretboard is, in order for tab to have any meaning. Once you recognize tablatures crude representation of the fretboard, it becomes fairly easy for most people to put two and two together.

Afterthought:

I suppose that tablature doesn't literally represent the fretboard, but it does represent the strings running along the fretboard.

----------


## Don Christy

> Originally Posted by  (Scott Tichenor @ Oct. 05 2007, 10:02)
> 
> Another point is, there's an endless source of standard, so why would anyone want to publish versions of mandolin breaks by various authors? Too much of what I call "mandolin inbreeding" generated by that.
> 
> 
> There is truth in that: Our mandolin heros did not learn their great licks from a collection of others' great licks.
> 
> Why be almost as good as someone else when you can be the best at playing your own style. Let others read your licks off an archive and try to be almost as good as you.


I haven't finished the entire thread, so apologies if the conversation has moved on or already addressed this BUT ...

Almost every instructor at the Mandolin Symposium this year at some point talked about learning the breaks off of some record. How hard it used to be with vinyl etc. Studying at the feet of the greats (as it were) is one of the BEST ways to discover and develop your own style. It doesn't happen in a vacumn.
Don

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## JimD

> ...and that's my point; they are both valid tools.


My point is that tab is *not* the equal of notation.

Scissors and a saw are both valid tools too-- but only one of them will cut an inch thick piece of maple.

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## AlanN

...and the beat goes on...

I was watching youtube last night and realized how fortunate (and how it's already taken for granted) learning musicians are today. I searched on 'Mountain Jam' and not only came across a grainy clip of the Allmans in the day, but also one of a guy showing the opening melody lines, ina very simple, direct way. I remarked how amazing is that, it used to be either you picked it up by ear, read it in a book, or had a personal teacher.

Now, if could just get that Berry Oakley bass solo down...

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## emitfo

> Quote
> ...and that's my point; they are both valid tools.
> 
> 
> My point is that tab is not the equal of notation.
> 
> Scissors and a saw are both valid tools too-- but only one of them will cut an inch thick piece of maple.


You must have put that analogy up with the INTENT of getting the more obvious than the nose on my face reply of:

--but only one of them will cut paper smoothly, cleanly and without ripping it to shreds.

Thus we learn that analogies are useful as a teaching tool or to illustrate a point but NOT as a debate tactic.

----------


## emitfo

Whoops! I forgot to add I am firmly in the "they're both great" crowd! Actually I'm amazed at how long this thread has gone on because of one simple...yep! Analogy! (Oh the irony!)

Whether notes or tab, it's just a recipe--you still gotta bake the dang cake!

It's like arguing whether something should be writ in English or French.

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## Peter Hackman

Really, reading *some* of the posts, #the defensiveness, 
the emotionality, the inability to distinguish between factual statements
(and advice) on the one hand, value judgments on the other,
one must realize that the issue is not standard vs. tab at all. Roughly, one can disinguish two attitudes:

A) ad hoc (this tune, that way, that key, that #fingering, etc.), mandolin-as-such, reproduction, immediate gratification.

B) aiming at mastery, originality, mandolin-in-musical-context,
which means, i.a., devising your own kick-offs, fills, riffs, countermelodies, the ability to improvise on given thematic material or chord changes
(which may very well converge to a set solo), knowing what notes to leave out from chords (because someone else will play them),
transposing #on the spot, because the singer has a sore throat, or looks for a challenge.

E.g., using tab as *primary source for all your material* is often an indication of A). Attitude B) doesn't ask how Bill done it, but rather
what can I do with it? I learned the Moonlight Waltz off Baker's record and it appears that Monroe plays in 1st; that's probably what the tab-dependent player will extract from the tef files.
 I want it in 3rd, with lots of double-stops,
amongst other things. And I use it as a blowing vehicle.

Another example of this dichotomy is the constant requests for chord charts. 
I always point out that chords are composed of notes belonging to keys and modes, that they lead into one another in various ways, that they create
and resolve dissonance, etc., 
 and that chord charts are a poor subsitute for knowledge of the fretboard and chord construction - once you know the latter the rest is automatic,
anyway, the chord forms will leap from the fretboard as they did to me.

 Last time I wrote this I got angry answers about "re-inventing the wheel".

Of course, there's the capo issue, the idea that some people (quite few I believe) have of reducing all keys to 2or 3 scale forms (haven't wee seen enough of that on the guitar?). When I pointed out that many keys are much easier on mandolin
than people tend to believe, that they sit very naturally in standard positions, amd that the more territory you cover, the more you discover, I was accused of being snooty, a snob and a purist, and of critisizing someone who had at the time hardly ever touched a mandolin and whose playing I had never heard. that, of course,
is also an example of "reacting with your reactions" instead of listening.
Those who launched these accusations refused to prove them - OF COURSE!

Now I won't critisize or moralize on attitude A) because I will never hear these instrument owners, and possibly they're quite satisfied with what they have (but then, why the defensiveness). But the thing that really *ANGERS*
me, is the populism of those who
write "go by whatever method pleases you, don't #listen to the snobs, etc."

The goal can never be divorced from the method. The easy way out is almost never the way in, and that applies to all learning (I'm a retired university lecturer). Therefore the proper advice is, simply, #"examine your goals". 

This, just like jmcgann's posts, is not an attack on tab. Tab is definitely the superior source for material for which you have no aural or readably notated source.

----------


## JimD

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Quote 
> Quote
> ...and that's my point; they are both valid tools.
> 
> 
> My point is that tab is not the equal of notation.
> 
> Scissors and a saw are both valid tools too-- but only one of them will cut an inch thick piece of maple. 
> ...


I did not say that tab is't a useful tool -- simply that its usefelness is very limited.

I repeat: for many professional situations 


> if someone thinks they'll be able to get along in those situations by reading tab, they are in for a rude awakening.
> 
> This is not a prejudice, it is a fact.


If you are trying to get me to say they are equal -- it just isn't going to happen. 

I can go the next 30 years and not lose a single gig if I didn't understand tab. Quite the opposite for notation -- on the contrary -- I have gotten lucrative gigs BECAUSE I was able to read (and sightread) notation fluently.

----------


## Klaus Wutscher

It is amusing that we get to the point of seriousely discussing whether reading TAB will be helpful to get any studio gigs. "Rude awaking" might be an understatement,actually. To think of it, who would have to provide you with useful TABs- exactly, it would have to be another mandolin player, who would have to be familiar enough with the instrument to indicate useful patterns. So your producer plays the mandolin and invests extra time to tab his part out and then decides he doesn´t want to play the part himself because he has some money to burn on the project and that´s where you come into play - recording a part that another player prepared for you for good money (his)in the studio. Happens all the time, I guess.... 

Even if you do read standard notation slowly but cannot play fluidly and have to transpose it to TAB "on the clock", don´t expect a call for another session from that source, ever. If your phone won´t ring, it will be that producer. So if you don´t read standard, your only option as a session player is bluegrass/country, were usually, no notation is used.

As mentioned before, I was kind of a latecommer to the notation party, but in hindsight I could have become a much better player if I had invested a few weeks of work years ago.

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## mandelect

If I choose to refer to a piece of tab in order to understand how a tune was played, it does not necessarily mean that I intend to play the piece, as written. It can often help me to understand the structure, so that I am better able to develop my own interpretation. Likewise for standard notation and learning stuff by ear.

There is a massive assumption being made, by some here, that the use of tab implies a reluctance to study notation and understand theory. I love theory - it's fascinating stuff; so logical, and yes, ultimately easy once you've grasped the basic principles. I learnt basic reading of standard notation first - then I discovered the mandolin and tab. The immediacy of tab, in turn encouraged me to explore theory and further develop my reading abilities. Is that not a good and positive thing? 

In some musical circles, and for some people, all these processes are redundant. Irish and the folk music traditions of the British Isles rely heavily on the oral tradition. This, in Irish music especially, lends itself to some fantastic regional variations of tunes. Using notation or tab for Irish music (jigs, reels etc) will only give you an outline of a tune. You simply cannot learn how to play Irish music without listening to players - how they phrase and how they ornament! Of course many modern folk musicians do now use theory/notation/tab etc to convey the structure of a tune, however, the oral tradition of passing tunes along will always survive.

I've played flutes, whistles & low whistles for 33 years and almost all of the stuff I learnt on these instruments was by ear.

----------

MikeyG

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## ApK

> And the answer is still: tab is musically meaningless to someone who doesn't already know the fretboard.


At the risk of needlessly resuscitating this same conversation after 9 pages, I must say, I don't understand that. #Tab is immediately meaningfull musically (if by that we mean helping someone play music) even if you know nothing except "these are strings, this number is what little metal bar to press behind...now play." #While to make any use of standard, OTOH, you do have to know the fretboard well enough to know where a note falls.
I would agree that tab doesn't foster increasing ones understanding of the fretboard, while standard does, if that's what you meant.




> Last time I wrote this I got angry answers about "re-inventing the wheel".


I wasn't the least bit angry when I said that. #IIRC, the upshot of that thread was that we all agreed that we could develop better musically if we don't RELY on chord charts, and rather understand the theory of their construction.
But having access to a chord chart and learning from there is completely valid in my book, and more fun for many people then having to wait until you understand theory well enough to figure them out before you can strum along with a song.
Your answer in that thread seemed a bit preachy, and unresponsive. #I probably wouldn't have even responded if you had said something along the lines of "There are several chord charts here on the cafe, however you might be better served if you . . . ."

ApK

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## emitfo

***sigh*** 
I'll enter in to the fray one last time before exiting *The Thread That Would Not Die*




> (but then, why the defensiveness). But the thing that really ANGERS
> me, is the populism of those who
> write "go by whatever method pleases you, don't listen to the snobs, etc."
> 
> The goal can never be divorced from the method. The easy way out is almost never the way in, and that applies to all learning (I'm a retired university lecturer). Therefore the proper advice is, simply, "examine your goals".


*I would ask the same thing about you: "Why the defensiveness?" Especially someone who maintains both notes and tab are tools. It is ludicrous to say that one tool is inherently superior to another it is always context dependent. It is true, you go by whatever method pleases you--that is what you have done, in fact it's the only thing any one can ever do. I would never say, "don't listen to the snobs" I would say "listen to the snobs AND the illiterate." 
*I really don't know what "the goal can never be divorced from the method" means, if it truly mean anything. As an ex-professor I would think you would recognize "divorcing" (strange way of putting it to my ears) different aspects of whatever is being studied (especially if it is studying studying) is part of the process of understanding anything. Take it apart, examine it, put it back together. 
*Finally we get to a point we agree on 

*Examine your goals* Absolutely! Start at the end and figure out how you got there!

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## emitfo

My post would have gone too long--imagine that, me being verbose when I'm trying to explain a variety of points in minute detail!

Just add this post to the one previous  




> I did not say that tab is't a useful tool -- simply that its usefelness is very limited.


So you're saying Standard Notation's usefulness if UNlimited? Sorry, couldn't resist the sarcasm! 

I must have got caught in the crossfire of another battle because EVERY TOOL is SUPERIOR in CERTAIN SITUATIONS. It's funny that I'm talking about this anyway because I used to be on the other end with my rock and pop music friends who said notation was a waste of time. And Jim, I'm not trying make you say anything: I maintain notes are a tool--and a very useful one in certain situations, just as tablature is useful in certain situations. Neither is inherently superior to the other. Would you rather have pliers or screwdriver? If I were forced to choose between Standard Notation and Tablature.........................................  ........................................
..................I choose actual music!

Now denigrate me to your heart's content!

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## ApK

> So you're saying Standard Notation's usefulness if UNlimited? #Sorry, couldn't resist the sarcasm! #


Less limited.


BTW, I'd like to point out in response to the 'I can't believe this has gone on his long' comments:

Each of these 9 pages contains at least SOME new ways of thinking about or approaching notation.
I'd like to think that anyone foolish...uh...I mean...curious enough to read all the thread wouldn't have done so if they weren't getting something out of it.

I'm sure Scott would have locked it long ago otherwise.
It really isn't that bad. Academic discussions are interesting. By all means, keep posting and reading if you're interested, and stop if you're not.

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## AlanN

Gee, bt. this and the 'he said, she said' Loar thread, it's a pretty good day in the neighborhood.

Flog on...

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## mandelect

> It is ludicrous to say that one tool is inherently superior to another it is always context dependent.





> I would never say, "don't listen to the snobs" I would say "listen to the snobs AND the illiterate."





> EVERY TOOL is SUPERIOR in CERTAIN SITUATIONS. #


Very wise comments *emitfo*; thankyou for your insight.

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Originally Posted by  (JeffD @ Oct. 05 2007, 10:29)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by  (Scott Tichenor @ Oct. 05 2007, 10:02)
> 
> ...


was it? My old turntable could be slowed down to 16 2/3 rpm,
halving the speed and lowering the music by an octave. I know lots of people did it that way; but of course you had to get a feeling for the piece or the solo as a whole first - key(s), harmony, rhythm, etc, and I developed quite a bit of my musical vocabulary that way. Later I bought a turntable that had only two speeds, which simply meant I had to listen differently, less linearly, to pick stuff from records. But then I already had a vocabulary! 


 If I transcribed from an EP I slowed it down to 33 1/3. The ratio is close to 4/3 which means the music was lowered by a fourth, so I had to transpose 
it up to pitch. No big deal for a guitarist, of course.

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## August Watters

> I maintain notes are a tool--and a very useful one in certain situations, just as tablature is useful in certain situations. #Neither is inherently superior to the other. #Would you rather have pliers or screwdriver?


Hmm. . .it might have been more accurate to say, would you rather have pliers, or an entire toolkit?

As a musician and a teacher I find the use of tablature to be pretty much limited to explaining ideas to people who don't read standard notation, or reading music that's available only in tablature form. As a teacher it's important to me to nurture the excitement of beginners, so the immediacy of tablature is a useful advantage. As students develop their skills, they need tablature less.

At this point, surely we've had all sides weigh in. Among them, we've had several voices explain why it is that standard notation offers a lot more information than tablature, helps avoid musical dead ends and builds the musical thought process. At least three of those voices are accomplished performers who are also professors at famous music schools.

Maybe it's time to take it or leave it.





> I would never say, "don't listen to the snobs" I would say "listen to the snobs AND the illiterate." #


this is the choice? #

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Originally Posted by  (Peter Hackman @ Oct. 15 2007, 07:08)
> 
> And the answer is still: tab is musically meaningless to someone who doesn't already know the fretboard.
> 
> 
> At the risk of needlessly resuscitating this same conversation after 9 pages, I must say, I don't understand that. #Tab is immediately meaningfull musically (if by that we mean helping someone play music) even if you know nothing except "these are strings, this number is what little metal bar to press behind...now play." #While to make any use of standard, OTOH, you do have to know the fretboard well enough to know where a note falls.
> I would agree that tab doesn't foster increasing ones understanding of the fretboard, while standard does, if that's what you meant.
> 
> 
> ...


I simply meant that without knowledge of the fretboard you can't just look at
the tab and hear the music. # This simple logical observation makes the original question all the more puzzling.


Last paragraph: isn't this amazing: I have no natural talent for music, 
NONE WHATEVER !!!, 
I never took a lesson (no teacher would have accepted me), I never used a book or other instructional material, yet I was able to arrive at various chord forms by simply looking at the fretboard an using my general knowledge of harmony.

I didn't start with chords (not on guitar either), but with single-note stuff.
When I had gained knowledge of the fretboard I started to work out chords and chord combinations. Of course, I was in no great hurry to apply my knowledge to a group situation. Maybe I was shy, or just self-critic.

----------


## mythicfish

Standard notation is nothing more or less than a symbol system.
It is used by composers and transcribers to codify musical "ideas".
It is used by musicians to express these "ideas".
I can't see how any discussion of its merits or shortcomings warrents getting ones knickers in a twist.

"Can you bake a pie?"
"No
"Neither can I"

Curt

----------


## mandelect

> Maybe it's time to take it or leave it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by  
> 
> I would never say, "don't listen to the snobs" I would say "listen to the snobs AND the illiterate."
> ...


Okay wise guy; maybe he meant the "literate & the illiterate" - it's still a wise comment! We all learn from every situation, and every experience informs us in some way. I've heard many a wise word from the illiterate.




> Among them, we've had several voices explain why it is that standard notation offers a lot more information than tablature...


Clearly nonsense, in certain situations, as you so eloquently explain:



> As a teacher it's important to me to nurture the excitement of beginners, so the immediacy of tablature is a useful advantage.


Tablature is, of course *superior* in this situation - it gets results, IMMEDIATELY.

There may be a few professors of outstanding musical ability in here, but their abilities at arguing logic leave a lot to be desired.

PS #You guys are tying yourselves up in knots. August Watters, can you not see that in the space of two short paragraphs, you totally contradict yourself?

----------

MikeyG

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## mandelect

Okay, one last time .....hopefully  

Tab *may* be a superior tool for *most* beginners.

Notation *may* be a superior tool for *most* advanced musicians.

These cannot be absolutes - there are always going to be exceptions.

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## jmcgann

_&lt;Comment removed for violating board posting guidelines&gt;._

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## mandelect

Thankyou John

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## emitfo

_&lt;Comment removed for violating board posting guidelines&gt;_

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## mandelect

LOL

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## mandelect

I've just written a jig called "Tying yourselves up in knots", it's in 0/8 time and available in Tab only, ...for a very short time - if anyone is interested?

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## mandelect

Dear *emitfo*, 

I would love to join your wonderful organisation, but I'm afraid I'm addicted to tab. Do you offer a support group for people like me.

PS. I think I'm addicted to theory and notation too! Am I doomed?

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## JimD

_&lt;Comment removed for violating board posting guidelines&gt;._

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## AlanN

Take it off-line, fellas...please.

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## mandocrucian

> There may be a few professors of outstanding musical ability in here, but their abilities at arguing logic leave a lot to be desired.


Really? 

But have you never noticed, these "perfessers" _all_ happen to use their _real names_, as opposed to hiding behind some acronym, handle or anonymity. Wonder why the latter do that? Too easy to track down a trail of 2 or 3-year-old internet postings which would reveal something along the lines as ..._"Beginner player wants to jam."_? (Or if you're a pro player...put your name where where opinion is.)

Most highly-trained musicians would be considered fools if they decided to be their own lawyer, perform surgery, self-direct investment accounts, do complex repairwork on an $80,000+ vehicle, instantly become a computer code analyst, etc. *And rightly so!* 

_But_ isn't it *ironic* that there are those in those other fields who seem to think that their career training, or the letters behind their names, somehow "magically" transmutes itself in musical expertise of the same degree and level?

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## mandelect

Just trying to avoid the spam Niles.

I am 51 years of age, and by no means a beginner, thankyou!




> But isn't it ironic that there are those in those other fields who seem to think that their career training, or the letters behind their names, somehow "magically" transmutes itself in musical expertise of the same degree and level? #


...and there is no logical reason on earth why a non professional (or amateur) musician's musical skill, and expertise, should not in some cases exceed their professional counterparts. I have met a couple of distinctly amateur, but definitely virtuoso musicians!

PS ...and just to clear one thing up: I am *not* making those claims for myself, though as I said I am no beginner!

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## August Watters

As someone said, standard notation is just a way of writing down ideas; none of this deserves the amount of passion expended here. The title of the thread is silly, since standard notation and tablature are not in conflict.

For the benefit of those whose ideas are not already entrenched, I suggest: Learn both systems. Then you'll be in a position to understand their relative strengths and weaknesses. 

I'm outta here.

August W

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## mandelect

Though I'm hoping that this topic will soon be put to rest, If it is to continue, I would rather stick to discussing the merits of tab and notation.

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## August Watters

> can you not see that in the space of two short paragraphs, you totally contradict yourself?


Here are my two quotes. You decide:




> Among them, we've had several voices explain why it is that standard notation offers a lot more information than tablature...
> 
> As a teacher it's important to me to nurture the excitement of beginners, so the immediacy of tablature is a useful advantage.

----------


## jmcgann

> There may be a few professors of outstanding musical ability in here, but their abilities at arguing logic leave a lot to be desired.


I am very happy for anyone to point out any lack of logic in anything I've claimed here, other than semantics.

*The Fighting Was so Fierce Because The Stakes Were So Small.*

----------


## jmcgann

> But isn't it ironic that there are those in those other fields who seem to think that their career training, or the letters behind their names, somehow "magically" transmutes itself in musical expertise of the same degree and level?


It is, but such is a democracy where everyone is entitled to blare their opinions, informed or not.

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## mandelect

Precisely John, which is why you are still allowed to post here!

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## jmcgann

> and there is no logical reason on earth why a non professional (or amateur) musician's musical skill, and expertise, should not in some cases exceed their professional counterparts. I have met a couple of distinctly amateur, but definitely virtuoso musicians!


Here's a logical reason: Given the same level of "talent":

A) A person who isn't pursing another career, and is willing to live a hand-to-mouth existence in order to be able to eat, sleep and breathe music all day every day, to further their skills as a musician.Income is derived from playing and/or teaching music, period. Has spent many many hours learning the language of theory. Excellent ears. "Professional" assumed to be soulful, expressive player.

B) A person with a 40 hr. a week job, family, mortgage, car payments etc. Loves music, plays occasional gigs. Less time to spend pursuing theory. Excellent ears."Amateur" assumed to be soulful, expressive player.

Who do you reckon is more _likely_ to have a well formed opinion on music? Not as a black-and-white, absolute fact, but where would yu place your money?

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## jmcgann

> Precisely John, which is why you are still allowed to post here!


No, I passed the audition like everyone else

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## mythicfish

I think we should put it to a vote.

Roman alphabet?
Phonetic alphabet?
OK?
Oy vey!

Curt

----------


## JeffD

I would have thought this thread would have worn itself out by now. But in fact I have learned a thing or two in the process so I guess there is still value in it.

Hey John, have any of those other tab systems gotten any traction with serious musicians?

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## mandelect

> B) A person with a 40 hr. a week job, family, mortgage, car payments etc. Loves music, plays occasional gigs. Less time to spend pursuing theory. Excellent ears."Amateur" assumed to be soulful, expressive player.


Actually John, in my case, it is highly likely that on some days I spend more time playing music than you do - can't prove it of course.

My beautiful wife and soul mate of 28 years is now seriously ill with Multiple Sclerosis, Spinal Muscular Atrophy and Epilepsy, which has caused serious brain damage. She can no longer communicate with me other than by using her sparkling green Irish eyes. In between caring for her 24/7 I am fortunate enough to be able to play, practice, learn, listen and generally ease my soul with the beautiful strains of this thing we call music.

Of course that doesn't make me a better musician than you - I bought Upslide a few years ago  # But the example holds true - It is likely that someone somewhere, who also happens to be non-professional, is a better musician than you. Mind you that would be a subjective observation.

----------


## emitfo

> Here's a logical reason: Given the same level of "talent":
> 
> A) A person who isn't pursing another career, and is willing to live a hand-to-mouth existence in order to be able to eat, sleep and breathe music all day every day, to further their skills as a musician.Income is derived from playing and/or teaching music, period. Has spent many many hours learning the language of theory. Excellent ears. "Professional" assumed to be soulful, expressive player.
> 
> B) A person with a 40 hr. a week job, family, mortgage, car payments etc. Loves music, plays occasional gigs. Less time to spend pursuing theory. Excellent ears."Amateur" assumed to be soulful, expressive player.
> 
> Who do you reckon is more likely to have a well formed opinion on music? Not as a black-and-white, absolute fact, but where would yu place your money?


This hypothetical has too many holes in it to be of any use. "Given the same level of 'talent'" ---what does that even mean if it's even possible. I would never make the assumption that someone who is talented in one area, in this case music, is automatically talented in another area, in this case your "well formed opinion." Well formed according to you, me or someone else? A talented musician is a talented musician. They may have other skills as well, perhaps mechanical, perhaps in the are of thoughts or "well formed opinions"...or not. 

I GUESS what is happening is people have a lot vested in their learning of music notation and thus feel the need to not only defend it but often times to covertly denigrate those who don't align themselves with those same ideas. Which is too bad. Sure, I'm guilty of getting riled up when I run into elitist attitudes and even more so from people that should know better. I can't sight read but I can and do read music and make nearly constant use of the theory but I actually consider that a short coming on my part. Paul McCartney and others don't read music and you know what? I would gladly trade my knowledge and even yours if I had that much, to play and create as much and as well as he has and does. *IT'S THE MUSIC* EVERYTHING else is ancillary, supportive and can be used or discarded if that is what the outcome of good music requires.

----------


## KennyR

> I think we should put it to a vote.
> 
> 
> 
> Curt


We should put this to a vote.  
Anybody know how to create one? Maybe Scott Tichenor can help?

----------


## mandelect

It is still not logical to assume that because one is not professional, one cannot have an informed opinion about music. Did you spend hours watching TV as a child John? I didn't; my father refused to have a TV in the house - we were fed a strict diet of classical, opera and organ music right from the word go, along with a smattering of jazz and folk. I rebelled and listened to rock in the late 60's and early 70's, but I've returned with a vengeance to one of the things my father gave me, a love of great music. The great symphonists, string quartets, organ music, jazz, world, folk - I love analogue synthesis too ....and I have a fair bit of knowledge about all of it. Though I'm always learning, always discovering, and forever in awe of some of the amazingly talented and creative people out there.

----------


## jmcgann

OK, I give, uncle! uncle! 

Everyone's opinion is of equal value. 


I can't put across a logical argument.

----------


## jmcgann

> Hey John, have any of those other tab systems gotten any traction with serious musicians?


Not sure what you mean by "other tab systems", Jeff...the lute tab was used back in the day... do you mean the tab with circled numbers for strings and fingerings? Can't say I've seen much of it, although I use it when people pay me to transcribe stuff in tab for them and I feel it would be helpful.

I wouldn't say someone who reads tab isn't a "serious musician", but none of the serious musicians I know personally (flames off, please) use tab other than for teaching.

----------


## mandelect

Must dig out my copy of Upslide again

----------


## Peter Hackman

> ***sigh*** 
> I'll enter in to the fray one last time before exiting *The Thread That Would Not Die*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by  
> ...


Before Scott locks this thread I will submit my reply to this, as calmly as possible.

I'm not defensive; I certainly have weaknesses and limitations as a musician, but I feel no need to defend them. So it's not my style to call someone a "snob" because he has a skill the significance of which I do not grasp; neither do I #maintain that such a skill is dark and mysterious. 

I'm not aware that I ever claimed that one method 
(and I don't see tab vs. standard as a choice of methods)
is inherently superior, etc, etc.
regardless of context; all I've been trying to say is that standard is easier to read - and much faster to write !!!! - 
than tab; I feel competent to judge that as I *know #both.*

(Like so many others I occasionally glance at the tab to see if it offers a fingering solution I hadn't thought of - and much too often do I realize the lack of care that went into it! Really, tab would be a much more interesting option - in certain tricky spots - #if someone could come up with a way of notating, not just fingers, but the whole hand! )

 It may not appear that way to people who have only a partial understanding of notation. To be sure, as I demonstrated by example, there are those to whom notation is just a series of instructions, press that key, flatten that note, etc. They're victims #of poor education. As I'm not a musical pedagogue I can only speculate, but in too many cases it seems that #notation - of either kind - #is introduced too early or not connected with ear training 
 #Many reading mistakes would be avoided simply by *hearing* the next note.

Now I tried to broaden the context a bit, in order to explain the emotions this topic stirs up. Seems I only succeeded in stirring up a broader range of emotions.

I tried to explain that goals aren't independent of methods. 

 I never said that tab vs. standard is such a choice of methods; but many posts in Song and Tune Projects show that some people look for tab to just anything - instead of laying a proper foundation -
and it's natural - and sometimes helpful - 
 to point out that that "method" leads to very limited goals. 

Also, someone looking for less inbreeding, less
mandolin-as-such, and wants to understand his instrument as part of the musical whole had better acquire either a *huge* pair of ears, or complement his smaller pair with the kind of theoretical understanding
that is at least facilitated by standard notation. When I was learning the guitar I felt the necessity to read not only soprano clef but also bass.
Later I studied string quartets so I had to learn C clef (which puts middle
C in the middle of one staff instead of between two staves).

I learned guitar and mandolin very differently. When I started on the guitar I had a very poorly developed ear. I became quite good at sight-reading
and transposing on the spot, and playing in just about any key
(*especially E flat* )
 but I became much too dependent on notation, probably because sheet music was much cheaper than discs. I took me several years to liberate myself of this dependence - which only deepened the theoretical knowledge I had acquired.

When I got started on the mando 8 years later I decided to learn in a much less formal and systematic, #and much more ear-based, #manner. I've learned
a lot form records, slowing down to half speed, etc., which was slow, but a very sound investment. And I was always aided by my theoretical knowledge.
Many jazz musicians, saxophonists, drummers, bass players, also play some piano. Perhaps, to be a really good group musician on mando you must
know at least some other instrument, preferably guitar, bass, or piano.

Anyway, to simply say "do whatever pleases you is cheap and irresponsible populism. A beginner is often a poor judge of the outcome of various learning strategies - as I've noticed after teaching at Universities for 40 years.
A good teacher - and I've seen a few #- knows that his business is not to please the students, thereby conserving their weaknesses and misconceptions, #but to challenge them into realizing their potential.
You'll make fewer friends that way, but deeper friendships.

Now, Scott, you can lock this topic!

----------


## jmcgann

> It is likely that someone somewhere, who also happens to be non-professional, is a better musician than you. Mind you that would be a subjective observation.


Extremely likely; I wouldn't doubt that for a moment, believe me. Especially depending on how you define "better musicians". There are _infants_ now that can play faster than me. 

Nowhere, no how, have I ever claimed to be a better musician than anyone, including the Shaggs. The A/B argument was meant to illustrate the simple idea that not every opinion is equally informed. I'd rather have a chief of cardiac surgery do my bypass than a resident (assuming, like musicians, they must both be drunk; the chief can probably hold his liquor better since he has more experience or he'd have lost the gig already.)  

Very sorry to hear about your wife; I am sure your music is very theraputic for both of you. It's great that we have music in our lives, and your post gives pretty good perspective on how silly all this bickering is.

As them young'uns say: Peace Out!

----------


## JimD

> I GUESS what is happening is people have a lot vested in their learning of music notation and thus feel the need to not only defend it but often times to covertly denigrate those who don't align themselves with those same ideas. Which is too bad. Sure, I'm guilty of getting riled up when I run into elitist attitudes and even more so from people that should know better.


What I don't get is how a orofessional (and yes, a professor) has an opinion about something that he spends his entire life considering and that is somehow "elitist attitude."

I don't know why I ever bother to post in these things.


I, for one, am fed up with the defensive attitudes displayed by some here.

----------


## mandelect

Okay guys; I've obviously got too much time to think here  Just discovered that the Oud has an ancient notation system: 



> ...Their alphabet-based notation used, for example, the letters a, b, g, d, h, w, z, h, t and I to express the musical letters for striking the ud strings named (from low to high-pitched) bamm, mathlath, mathna, zir and hadd. Moreover, scholars of music named the finger positions after the fingers of the human hand: index, middle, ring and small fingers. Therefore, they were able to identify each tone either by means of the finger positions on the string or by the alphabetical letters.


From this system we can find the letters "t", "a" and "b". How about composing a theme and variations, in standard notation, to celebrate our use of notation & tablature - using the western equivalent of the Arabic notes for "t", "a" and "b". Go on John (or Jim) you can do it - let's bring a little harmony to this thread

----------


## mandelect

Okay guys, just joshing. I'll leave you in peace now

----------


## JimD

A little anecdotal evidence:

I teach music theory and ear training at a northeastern conservatory. Over the past 25+ years of teaching (at various institutions) I have found that most of the players of plucked instruments (primarily guitar but occasionally mandolin, lute etc.)had to take the remedial theory and ear training classes. 

This is both on the undergrad and grad levels. The occasional student of those instruments who took the regular theory course had very little experience with tab.

Just something to think about...

----------


## mandocrucian

according to Monty Python.....

----------


## Mark Robertson-Tessi

I have a question for those who have used tab enough to feel proficient. I've never had much reason to use tab, so I never 'learned' it. When I encounter something in tab-only, I find it awkward to sightread. If a tab reader is handed a tab they had never seen (say a fiddle tune, or maybe part of a bach sonata) can they sing it at speed, first try? Just wondering.

Cheers
Mark RT

----------


## emitfo

> I don't know why I ever bother to post in these things.


I do. It's because, like most people, you are basically and in most circumstances honest. There is a malady that those in the teaching profession are prone to becoming afflicted with: I'm the Professor/Teacher/Coach therefore I am right. Since on an almost daily basis--depending on how often a person actually teaches in front of students--this idea is reinforced on a subconscious level it is often difficult to detect. It's kind of like the opposite of an "ad hominem" argument or attack. An idea or concept or opinion is not sound(!) because of who says it but based upon the the idea/concept itself in conjunction with the environment it is placed within. I suggest to you that, whether you are subconsciously aware of this dynamic you actually recognize the need to interact on a level where there is no automatic deferment to your status but only your ideas. 

To me "elitist attitude(s)" are just what I described: You should accept my analysis because I have studied this in depth or whatever. To which I reply a resounding no. The theories must have merit on their own. 

We disagree, that's fine, even exalted (if you saw my now removed post you know what I mean). And by engaging our different views we MAY be able to arrive at an even better understanding. I fight passionately for what I believe in and I hope others do the same AND realize that *THEY ARE ONLY BELIEFS* and thus may be changed more easily than our shoes!

----------


## JimD

An anti-teacher bias, perhaps?

----------


## jmcgann

> An idea or concept or opinion is not sound(!) because of who says it but based upon the the idea/concept itself in conjunction with the environment it is placed within.


Yes, the truth is self evident. Most teachers (many of whom are 'pickers' like everyone else here, who happen to also play other styles of music), myself included, are trying to pass on the truth. Not because "we say so" or have huge egos to feed via a classroom setting (performing takes care of that monstrous job, thanks very much). There are actually lots real life experiences outside of the classroom, like years of performing, recording, touring that we draw from. It's not all "academic"!





> There is a malady that those in the teaching profession are prone to becoming afflicted with: I'm the Professor/Teacher/Coach therefore I am right.


It's not elitist to know something, and pass that knowledge on. We are actually regular guys, believe it or not, and not the pompous stereotypes some of you believe us to be.

I don't look for students to defer or bow down, ever- I look for them to have open minds. I'm happy to discuss alternate views. Sometimes they delude themselves into thinking they already know everything, especially about topics they don't care about.

It sounds like you had some bad experiences with teachers. Me too. But I don't assume they are all "prone" to that jive. 

This is starting to remind me of that very anti-intellectual thread from a few years back. Don't assume that because a person has a teaching post that he/she has stopped learning, has no self-awareness, or assumes he/she has The Answer. They may exist, but none of the people I know who post here resemble that remark in the slightest.

If you knew _me_ at all, you'd realize I am one of the original "question authority" guys. But I _am_ interested in what an "authority" has to say- that's how I learned myself!




> I GUESS what is happening is people have a lot vested in their learning of music notation and thus feel the need to not only defend it but often times to covertly denigrate those who don't align themselves with those same ideas.


Would you kindly point out exactly where I "denigrated" anyone?

----------


## JeffD

> Everyone's opinion is of equal value.


I am an engineer. My professionalism and ability aside, the fact is that people pay me good money for my advice regarding the type of engineering I do. When I talk about engineering I tell you what I know, when I talk about mandolins, I tell you what I think. 

This is true for most of us. But there are some folks some here on this board who really do know, they are paid to know. They charge a good buck to give the musical/mandolinial advice they give us for free. And there are other folks who pay that good buck to get that advice. Someone off the street wants instruction from them - hey the meter is running. 

Comparitive professionalism and ability aside, that fact alone will get me to listen and take seriously what they say. It has weight with me by the mere fact that others value it enough to hand over real money to hear the same things.

Now, if some of these folks start talking about how to build an electric generator, well, then I might get exercised. And you know what - I can't say that I would be as gracious as they are with my time and energy for free, when I have paying customers banging on the door.

----------


## emitfo

> Would you kindly point out exactly where I "denigrated" anyone?


No can do. I've had to write 3 separate, humorous but scathing retorts of various postings (on my computer's notepad) that I'm quite sure, though not specifically prohibited by the TOU, if posted would be read as such by Scott and very possibly get me banned for life. So I must bite my tongue on this whole issue unfortunately because, well I like coming here and being able to post when I am so inclined. Even now I must hold back a smart-gluteus-maximus comment!

So argue away.

I guess I'll just go play some more...so I guess things could be worse!

----------


## jmcgann

> Would you kindly point out exactly where I "denigrated" anyone?
> 
> 
> No can do.


Well, you can extract them from my posts with the handy 'quote' button. If it's something *I* said denigrating someone, how can *you* get kicked off the board?

Or "no can do" because "I no said"?

----------


## Jim Broyles

These last 2 or 3 pages have been fun to read, (except for being too late to the what got removed before it was removed  ) but I think I know what bugs me the most about TAB requests. A lot of the time I don't know the song, so I find it on line, give it a listen and discover that it's an easy I,IV,V song in 4/4 time. There's no reason on Earth, in my opinion, why a person who wants to be able to play that song should not be able to figure it out by ear. I have used TAB to learn passages which I couldn't come up with by myself, such as the Tele solos in "Mercury Blues" by Alan Jackson, but in all honesty, when I go to the Mandozine Tab archives and download a Tab, I play it and learn it by listening to the MIDI, not by reading the Tab. I know there are varying skill levels, but it truly seems to me that some folks are saying. "Cafe members, please open my head and pour mandolin knowledge into it."

----------


## emitfo

> Or "no can do" because "I no said"?


No sir, you are as guilty as anybody else. But apparently my brand of wit  is not considered kosher while barbs and jabs by others are okey-dokey. I _think_ I know the game but being the one on the bottom rung I must acquiesce.

Out.

----------


## jmcgann

I thought so...

----------


## Paul Kotapish

Oy. This thread makes my head hurt.

I haven't read anything that was denigrating or derrogatory from any of the defenders of traditional notation, but some of the responses from tab enthusiasts seem to border on the derisive--and the defensive. 

It's all just personal opinion, folks, and if some folks want to back up their opinions with an indication of the pedigree and experience that went into forming that opinion, it's no reason to take offense and jump into "what-do-the-experts-know-and-who-says-you're-an-expert-anyway" mode. 

Having a different opinion doesn't necessitate tearing down the other side's point of view. 

I learn most everything by ear, but when I do need to lean on the written page, notation is--IMHO--a lot more straightforward and versatile than tab. And--as already mentioned--reading notation sure opens up one's horizons to printed music for other instruments where tab isn't an option (violin, flute, piano, etc.)

Just one guy's opinion.

----------


## mandocrucian

You know, there are (real) "teachers" and then there are guys who "show you some stuff they do".

This whole thing reminds me of playing pool. There's plenty of recreational players that will always opt to sink the easiest ball, without ever thinking whether they'll be in decent position for the next shot(s).

Then there are those who think one shot ahead. Go for the 2nd easiest shot that leaves them with another ball they have a decent chance of sinking.

Then there are the experienced players who are thinking how they are going to run the entire table.

Same analogy - thinking moves ahead - could also be used for chess.

The real teachers are thinking 10 lessons ahead of the student. It's not just what you are going to do today, but getting you ready to handle what is planned for three months from now, or where you need to be headed. The guys who "show you some stuff they do" are only thinking in terms of today, and possibly next week.

But hey, you've got it all figured out on your own, right?

----------


## aries753

Personally, I like standard notation since that's what I am familiar with. Tab is kinda like the Bert Casey video for beginers. "Now press your second finger on the third fret of the second string". WHAT? did he say? By the time I translate all of that he's many measures away from me.
Now on the other hand, tab is usefull if the tune I am trying to play goes way up the neck on the E strings. Once the E changes past a high B then I have to rethink what the notes are. In that case while tab won't tell me the note it will tell me the fret to use. That makes tab a handy thing to have around as a learning tool.
At least for me anyway.:D

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Oy. This thread makes my head hurt.
> 
> I haven't read anything that was denigrating or derrogatory from any of the defenders of traditional notation, but some of the responses from tab enthusiasts seem to border on the derisive--and the defensive. 
> 
> It's all just personal opinion, folks, and if some folks want to back up their opinions with an indication of the pedigree and experience that went into forming that opinion, it's no reason to take offense and jump into "what-do-the-experts-know-and-who-says-you're-an-expert-anyway" mode. 
> 
> Having a different opinion doesn't necessitate tearing down the other side's point of view. 
> 
> I learn most everything by ear, but when I do need to lean on the written page, notation is--IMHO--a lot more straightforward and versatile than tab. And--as already mentioned--reading notation sure opens up one's horizons to printed music for other instruments where tab isn't an option (violin, flute, piano, etc.)
> ...


"My head hurts, therefore I am".

What we see is of course the age-old phenomenon of confusing information with opinion and attacking on arbitrary assumptions because they suit one's prejudiced reactions ("elitism" because you happen to know something) etc. 
 What can I possibly say? "Let no such man be trusted".

MIsterT asks an important question. I've asked it myself several times. It has never been answered. It's more important to some people to go on attacking others in defense of a long forgottten cause. 

When I'm being attacked or ridiculed by less informed people I often delete the post that elicited these attacks - leaving the other guy ranting at no one over nothing.

----------


## AlanN

> When I'm being attacked or ridiculed by less informed people I often delete the post that elicited these attacks - leaving #the other guy ranting at no one over nothing.


Now, that is excellent advice. Sort of like the madman on the street corner, shouting to the world. I like it.

----------


## mandelect

> I haven't read anything that was denigrating or derrogatory from any of the defenders of traditional notation, but some of the responses from tab enthusiasts seem to border on the derisive--and the defensive.


Personally, as a "tab enthusiast", I have no interest in deriding the traditional notationists. You see, I am a traditional notation lover too. I like my theory very much thankyou, and I love to use my ears - indeed my favourite tool has always been my ears! I would just like it to be acknowledged that all these tools can be useful, at some level, to aspiring musicians. The use of tablature would have died out years ago if no-one had a need for it.

P.S ...and as for defensive; why of course yes. Be aware though, that I am also defending the right of a musician to use standard notation, and tablature, or any method he/she might choose in order to reach his/her goals as a musician.

----------


## August Watters

> I would just like it to be acknowledged that all these tools can be useful, at some level, to aspiring musicians. The use of tablature would have died out years ago if no-one had a need for it.


Yes, that's been acknowledged here repeatedly. No one said tablature isn't useful. I've said the opposite several times. 

John carefully explained why and how standard notation contains more information than tablature. Instead of responding to that idea, the tabbies just stated they disagreed, and started calling the dotties "elitists." There's one on every forum.

----------


## mandelect

> Yes, that's been acknowledged here repeatedly. No one said tablature isn't useful. I've said the opposite several times.


Granted - I'm repeating myself now ....must be getting old!

----------


## Jim Garber

> You know, there are (real) "teachers" and then there are guys who "show you some stuff they do".
> 
> This whole thing reminds me of playing pool. There's plenty of recreational players that will always opt to sink the easiest ball, without ever thinking whether they'll be in decent position for the next shot(s).
> 
> Then there are those who think one shot ahead. Go for the 2nd easiest shot that leaves them with another ball they have a decent chance of sinking.
> 
> Then there are the experienced players who are thinking how they are going to run the entire table.
> 
> Same analogy - thinking moves ahead - could also be used for chess.
> ...


Wonderful analogy, Niles! Puts a lot of stuff in life in perspective. I may engrave those words on my forehead.

----------


## lgc

Agreed, Lonestars and Lawdstahs fah all. Wicked pissah idear jmcgann.

----------


## JeffD

> The real teachers are thinking 10 lessons ahead of the student. It's not just what you are going to do today, but getting you ready to handle what is planned for three months from now, or where you need to be headed. The guys who "show you some stuff they do" are only thinking in terms of today, and possibly next week.


Very well said.

As a kid I took banjo lessons. On my third lesson my teacher complained that he had too many students, and suggested that I might want to teach one or two of the absolute beginners.

Me: "I'm just a beginner myself, I've only had three lessons!"

Teacher: "Don't worry about it, you only have to be one or two lessons ahead of the student."

I quit after that and never went back to the banjo.

Jeff

----------


## JeffD

> Almost every instructor at the Mandolin Symposium this year at some point talked about learning the breaks off of some record. How hard it used to be with vinyl etc. Studying at the feet of the greats (as it were) is one of the BEST ways to discover and develop your own style. It doesn't happen in a vacumn.


I agree that learning breaks off of albums is a good way to learn, and goodness knows I have done this too, but I really think there is too much of it. It seems to be what everyone wants to do.

I remember hearing Isaac Stern talking to a young prodigy violinist about this, and he told her not to emulate great violinists, but to listen to a lot of vocal music, and try and imitate the human voice.

Somewhere between studying at the feet of the greats, and devotedly emulating their licks, somewhere between those two extremes. And I think the best way to develop your own style is to listen to all kinds of music, from all kinds of instruments, and play what you enjoy hearing.


I saw it somewhere on this forum and I love it: Be yourself, everyone else is taken!

----------


## Ted Eschliman

Twelve pages now about TAB vs standard notation, and I don't think I've learned anything new about the "argument," or whose Dad can beat up whose, but Niles' earlier post about playing pool was one of the most profound I've read in months. 

Niles, that was cool!

----------


## JeffD

> Twelve pages now about TAB vs standard notation, and I don't think I've learned anything new about the "argument," or whose Dad can beat up whose, but Niles' earlier post about playing pool was one of the most profound I've read in months. 
> 
> Niles, that was cool!


Yea, that by itself was probably worth wading through 8 of the pages.

----------


## DMC

'This hypothetical has too many holes in it to be of any use'

Really? Says Who? Is this your 'well informed' opinion as a professional philosopher (complete with elitists attitudes regarding valid hypotheitcal arguments?) In your own words, 'Well formed according to you, me or someone else?'

'I GUESS what is happening is people have a lot vested in their learning of music notation and thus feel the need to not only defend it but often times to covertly denigrate those who don't align themselves with those same ideas.'

Yeah. But substitute 'music notation' with 'tablature' and that 'GUESS' is even better...

'Sure, I'm guilty of getting riled up when I run into elitist attitudes and even more so from people that should know better'

Me too. Especially those who use the structure and jargon of informal logic in order to try and bolster the soundness of otherwise weak arguments.

'To me "elitist attitude(s)" are just what I described: You should accept my analysis because I have studied this in depth or whatever. To which I reply a resounding no. The theories must have merit on their own'

Of course. This is a trivial point which, if you read the posts carefully, no one is denying. The 'theory' in question is the idea that standard notation contains more information than tab. Where has anyone claimed you should accept this theory on face value due to the 'depth of their study'? Attack the theory itself i.e. the various, LOGICAL reasons given by those for holding this BELIEF

----------


## jmcgann

_&lt;Comment removed. Violates board posting guidelines&gt;._

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## Mike Bunting

Since this thread began, I have learned to read notation.

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## RobP

Ok everyone... think of all the practice time y'all have spent on this discourse 

Cheers,

Rob

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## Paul Kotapish

> The 'theory' in question is the idea that standard notation contains more information than tab. Where has anyone claimed you should accept this theory on face value due to the 'depth of their study'?


Sinebar's orginal post asked a simple question:

QUOTE]I know standard notation pretty good. So should I stick with standard notation and learn to apply it to the mandolin or would it be better to use tab?[[/QUOTE]

There was nothing in the post about which format contains more information. That particular slant on the question has evolved over the last 12 pages.

Lots of folks with a lot of experience have offered a opinions about which was the more useful format, and those opinions were based on a lot more than which format contained more information. 

I don't think anyone has done a serious pedagogical comparison to see which format is the better tool for conveying musical ideas in print. Until we put a million mandolin-playing monkeys in a room with tab and another million monkeys in another room with notation and see which room learns the Bach partitas faster, we probably can't determine that particular point beyond anecdotal experience.

However, the professional teachers in our little community seem to concur that the notation is--at this moment, anyway--the more fluid, expressive, and versatile tool for jotting down musical ideas and conveying them on paper to other musicians. 

But setting aside the particular efficacy of tab versus notation as applied to the mandolin, there are other important reasons for choosing to learn notation and how it applies to the mandolin instead of learning only tab.

Not least of these is the fact that there is an enormous repository of potential mandolin music that is available only in notation. For anyone interested in classical music, jazz, or traditional music from almost anywhere, the ability to read notation will open up far more repertoire than the relatively thin smattering currently available in tab. 

Just one guy's opinion.

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## DMC

Yes. Well put.

I was referring to an argument that arose during the development of this thread. I should have made that clear. 

I believe notation has the potential to convey more information than tab but that tab definitely has its uses. My point is merely that my belief isn't based on a simple appeal to authority. And no one (as far as I can tell though I'm not gonna read the whole thread again!!) has suggsted we should accept this view simply because they are a professional player or teacher.

Should have also wrote, like you, that this is just my opinion.

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