# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  Serial Numbers

## Sweetpea44

Would there be a reason for a seller to not disclose an instrument's serial number?  I generally see people stating the number on ads, when I look in the classifieds and eBay.  But, earlier, I saw an instrument on eBay and in one of the photographs the seller put his thumb up against the serial number in the sound hole.  Would there be a reason for that?   :Confused:

----------


## mandolinlee

Might suspect that it's hot (stolen).
Lee

----------


## f5loar

You often see the last 2 digits blanked out so you can still date it by the first numbers.  I see no reason to hide the serial no. unless you have something else to hide.

----------


## fatt-dad

It could protect a seller that doesn't have insurgence and proof of purchase I guess.

f-d

----------


## P.D. Kirby

If it was a high end Mandolin like a 24' Loar a Gil or Monty I could see the seller hiding the last 2 numbers just to protect his privacy but if it's a 2 to 4k mandolin I would first ask for the number before judging the seller as a crook.

Since we are on serial numbers, everyone should have as much documentation including serial numbers, detailed descriptions and good clear pictures of every instrument you own. God forbid you were to have your house or car broken into and have one of your instruments stolen. Even if the Police are able to recover the instrument you must be able to prove ownership or it might become part of a Police auction. Don't assume your homeowners policy covers your instruments even if you have a great policy with a high house/contents replacement value. Most insurance companies require you to buy a rider for your instruments and provide proof of value and detailed identification (pictures, receipts, appraisals) if you wish to be reimbursed for the actual value of the instrument. My insurance company will pay something like $150.00 an instrument according to their schedule unless you take out a separate rider (mine charged me an extra $50 a year YMMV) as described above.  I was not aware of all this until about 10 years ago when a good friends house was robbed and he lost over 25k worth of various guitars, banjos, mandolins and sound equipment. His insurance company offered him less than 1k because he didn't have a rider or any good records of ownership. So get out the camera and call your Insurance Agent...

----------


## Sweetpea44

Good tip concerning the insurance aspect of instruments/serial numbers.

Here's the eBay link to the instrument I was referencing.  It's a Weber OM.  In one photograph, you can kind of make out the numbers if you zoom in.  However, in the photograph specifically showing the sound hole, the seller has deliberately placed a finger to block the numbers.  I just thought that odd.  

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MANDOLIN-SAG...71033654388%26

----------


## mrmando

Well, the seller is a pawnshop owner, so he might suspect that he has a hot instrument ... or that someone will try to scam him by claiming it's theirs.

He's probably better off just not posting a photo of the label. Putting his digit over the serial number just raises questions, if not red flags.

----------


## barney 59

I spent about 5 minutes trying to figure out a scam that could be done if all you had was the description of an instrument and the serial #. It'd probably take at least another 15 minutes to actually figure one out and I'm not going to waste my time with it 'cause I'd never use it but if there is one someone will figure it out. I've followed ebay auctions for a long time and I have noticed that there is a fairly high number of instruments that sell on ebay and then reappear later. My first thought was to take advantage of that--report an item stolen that you never had and when it shows up somewhere claim it. I have a whole bunch of instruments that I have no idea where they've been before I got them and wouldn't have a leg to stand on if someone showed up with some kind of documentation that it was theirs. It would be really easy to fabricate some kind of receipt and if you have a serial number----. I had a friend that got totally hosed over a Les Paul that he had purchased and later listed on ebay. In this particular case it had actually been stolen and years before and many states away but the former owner saw the listing and the cops showed up at my friends door. They figured out that he was just someone that dabbled in instruments and didn't charge him or anything but they did confiscate the guitar. He was out $17,000!  Probably best to keep the full serial # to an instrument you own to yourself.

----------


## Sweetpea44

Yeah, I noticed the seller was a pawnshop owner, but with all positive reviews.  The instrument appears to be an authentic Weber instrument, based on the photographs.  I wouldn't think anything of it, if it weren't for that one photograph .... but I do understand why he might have done that.  I'm assuming then that the seller wouldn't have any information about the instrument (year of make, etc).  Could end up being a good deal based on bids?  Don't know how much a Sage 1 retails for normally in the used market.

----------


## Marty Jacobson

Scammers sometimes take photos from legitimate auctions. Perhaps the seller is concerned about that. I'd just ask them, they probably will set your mind at ease.

----------


## mandobassman

> Good tip concerning the insurance aspect of instruments/serial numbers.
> 
> Here's the eBay link to the instrument I was referencing.  It's a Weber OM.  In one photograph, you can kind of make out the numbers if you zoom in.  However, in the photograph specifically showing the sound hole, the seller has deliberately placed a finger to block the numbers.  I just thought that odd.  
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/MANDOLIN-SAG...71033654388%26


I find it interesting that he covered up the numbers in one photograph but in the one photo that you described showing the sound hole uncovered, anyone with even minor photo editing tools can easily make out the number.  I was able to enlarge it in Photoshop and very easily read the number.  If the seller was trying to not show the number he or she didn't do a very good job.

----------


## Stephen Porter

I recently asked an eBay seller for the serial number of a Deering banjo he had listed.   He responded that "he did not disclose SN's."   He never responded to my follow up question about why.  I'd be very uncomfortable about buying any instruments, especially vintage, without getting the number. 

STP

----------


## G7MOF

> It could protect a seller that doesn't have insurgence and proof of purchase I guess.
> 
> f-d


That's what I think. They also blank out vehicle registration numbers to stop you tracing them. (Another security precaution)!!!

----------


## fatt-dad

> It could protect a seller that doesn't have insurgence and proof of purchase I guess.
> 
> f-d


or one that doesn't have insurance either, I guess. (stupid smartphone's correcting my typing again.)

f-d

----------


## mrmando

> I spent about 5 minutes trying to figure out a scam that could be done if all you had was the description of an instrument and the serial #. It'd probably take at least another 15 minutes to actually figure one out and I'm not going to waste my time with it 'cause I'd never use it but if there is one someone will figure it out.


Paranoia doesn't have to make sense. Some people are afraid of being scammed even when there's little or no actual danger of it.

----------


## Willie Poole

I don`t think just having a photo of an instrument would be all you need if putting in a claim to an insurance company for a stolen instrument, I am just assuming you would need othr proof like a bill of sale or receipt of some kind, even then you could have sold the instrument and then claim it was stolen, I am not up on such things, just speculating as to what may be needed as proof....
   I have photos and reciepts on all of my instruments except one that was a custom made mandolin and not purchased from a dealer....

     Willie

----------


## barney 59

> Paranoia doesn't have to make sense. Some people are afraid of being scammed even when there's little or no actual danger of it.


I don't know if paranoia would be a fair term. The odds of an individual actually getting caught up in a particular scam are probably or at least usually pretty small. The possibility that if there is a scam possible that someone somewhere is trying to pull it off is most likely close to 100%. If someone foolishly leaves themselves wide open as a target their chances of becoming a victim would likely increase dramatically. Some people must answer those things like I get in my email where my bank is asking for all my secret information. (I just realized as I wrote that that I never got one of those phoney things from a bank that I DON'T have an account with--now THAT makes ME paranoid! I"m being targeted by people that know something about me, and maybe  a lot!. It's not completely random!)   That's the point I guess --a serial number is information and can someone use that information in some way to cause you harm? I don't know but if someone wants to keep the serial number of their instrument from being public information why not?

----------


## Jim Garber

What harm does it do to obscure part of the SN? As long as the potential bidders have enough info to determine the year of manufacture, that is really all they would need. I would rather err on the side of caution and not have anyone hijack my eBay posting. I removed my year of birth from Facebook for a similar reason.

----------


## P.D. Kirby

> I don`t think just having a photo of an instrument would be all you need if putting in a claim to an insurance company for a stolen instrument, I am just assuming you would need othr proof like a bill of sale or receipt of some kind, even then you could have sold the instrument and then claim it was stolen, I am not up on such things, just speculating as to what may be needed as proof....
>    I have photos and reciepts on all of my instruments except one that was a custom made mandolin and not purchased from a dealer....
> 
>      Willie


When I added the rider to my policy they made me submit all the information regarding year made, type and model number, serial number several photos and either a bill of sale or a Ad showing the current selling price. If I buy or sell anything and want it covered I have to submit a revised list. All in all it's worth it to me because I have a truckload of instruments and sound equipment from the good ole days of Rock n Roll. I have more money tied up in Microphones than I do in Speakers and I have some big speakers.

----------


## mrmando

> I removed my year of birth from Facebook for a similar reason.


Shucks ... there goes my plan to populate the universe with phony Jim Garbers.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

> What harm does it do to obscure part of the SN? As long as the potential bidders have enough info to determine the year of manufacture, that is really all they would need. I would rather err on the side of caution and not have anyone hijack my eBay posting. I removed my year of birth from Facebook for a similar reason.


This I agree with.  I have always thought it a bit peculiar of the folks that do not disclose the entire serial number.  But these days there are more reasons for the action than the implied ownership/something to hide comments

I too, just went through my Facebook account to understand and fix things.  We should worry more about that than knowing every digit of a mando or guitar we might think of buying. And don't sign up for this new crap that let's Facebook suggest rental cars and hotels and day trips based on you outlook calendar and email header information

If we spent a little more time understanding where all this was going we would all be better off

(Posted from my Facebook Mandolin Cafe plug-in app at 7:12pm 5/6/13 from coordinates e1234422.12/n123458.234.  Any related photos on my phone will be automatically attached to this post)



D

----------


## Sweetpea44

Ok- I tried getting some information about the instrument from the Weber company itself.  Here's the response I got from Bruce:

"My records show this instrument was stolen from it's original owner.  I've contacted him.  Thought it was kind of weird he had his finger over the serial #.  Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
All the best,
Bruce"

So there you have it!  Looked suspicious and it was suspicious.  I hope the original owner is contacted as well.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Well, in this case I stand corrected, but still don't think it is the usual case

----------


## fatt-dad

Wow!

f-d

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I must add that I did not see the post with the link by the OP.  In this case, yes, it is suspicious.

----------


## Russ Donahue

I thought about bidding on that instrument...was puzzled by the finger and moved on.  Glad I didn't get caught up in a potential "recovery of stolen property" mess....though I hope someone gets their instrument back!

----------

