# Octaves, Zouks, Citterns, Tenors and Electrics > CBOM >  Irish tenor banjo - Open back or Resonator?

## Taylor and Tenor

My next question concerning a 17 fret Irish tenor banjo is the banjo style.

For playing solely traditional Irish music, which type would you choose, Open Back or Resonator?  My only music interest is TIM, playing fiddle tunes at kitchen sessions, never in a pub or on a stage.  The instrument will not be used for Bluegrass or Old Time music.

Thanks,  CCS

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## multidon

Open back would be my choice. Lighter smaller easier to hold and carry and old time sound. Resonstors are louder but to open backs are plenty loud with a plastic head.

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## Bertram Henze

Resonator is a de-facto standard in ITM - the tone is louder and not as bone-dry. I have seen pub session players turn up with a dismounted resonator to avoid being heard too loud (and who am I to question their motifs  :Grin: ), but that does not apply in your case, apparently.

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## Steve L

I much prefer the tone of a resonator banjo myself, and all I play is Irish music.  But Angelina Carberry plays an open back and it doesn't get much better that her playing.  There's really no wrong decision.  If you're only playing in your kitchen for fun, you'll probably hear yourself better with an open back and as Don points out, they're physically easy to deal with.

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John Ellington

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## zoukboy

Resonator, definitely. BTW, there really is no such thing as a 17 fret "Irish" tenor. That seems to be a conceit created of the Gold Tone company. There is nothing that makes a 17 fret tenor "Irish." In fact, most of the prominent Irish players use 19 fret tenors as they sound better.

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Tim Griffin

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## Dan Hulse

> In fact, most of the prominent Irish players use 19 fret tenors as they sound better.


Whoa! There's a can of worms right there Zoukboy. They in fact sound "different", as do open backs. It just depends on what you like. I have both and the 17 fret open back is indeed lighter and softer yet has a plunkyness the others lack. BTW I also have mine mounted with a K&K and it's is my main banjo.

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Bob Michel

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## Jill McAuley

I choose to play open back and 17 fret because the smaller size suits me. Like Steve said, Angelina Carberry sounds just fine on a short scale open back. One of my tenors does have a resonator but it's a close fitting one - the B&D Silverbell I had for awhile had a resonator and I found it bulky for my needs - there isn't a right or wrong - go with the one that sounds and feels the best to you. 

Cheers,
Jill

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Loretta Callahan

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## bruce.b

I also prefer the sound and playability of a short scale (17 fret) open back tenor banjo. It's just a bit silly to say one or the other sounds better..... just different.

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## allenhopkins

If you're just participating in seisuns, I'd stick with an open-back, which doesn't project as strongly.  Banjos are loud (news flash!!), and if you want to blend in with other instruments and not dominate, you don't want to be as loud as you can get.

As to neck/scale lengths; in my experience, the main difference is, if you're mostly playing single-note fiddle-tune melodies out of first position, the shorter scale and more closely-spaced frets of a 17-fret make this easier.  I don't think that either type of banjo has a preference as to sound -- at least not one that can't be modified by string selection, head type and tension, etc.

And no, there are no "Irish tenor banjos"; there are tenor banjos that are put into GDAE "Irish" tuning, or some variant thereof.  The shorter-scale 17-fret instruments were made before 19-fret necks were made popular (actually, Gibson had an early 18-fret instrument, I believe), and later 17-fret ones were sold as "student" models (perhaps for kids' smaller hands?).  Now companies are building 17-fret models and marketing them for Celtic playing, but obviously you can play Celtic music on either type.

I have an old 17-fret Bacon Orchestra model, and I do like the shorter scale, coming from mandolin-family instruments.  Nothing to stop someone from getting a 19-fret one and capoing it up a couple of frets, though, if the longer scale's a problem.

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DavidKOS, 

Loretta Callahan

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## Steve L

A lot of what holds true for scale length in octaves and zouks is true for banjos for the most part.  Short lengths have more tub and blub and longer scales have more ping and zing.  I've heard people sound great on 17 frets, but I much prefer 19 fret resonator tenors myself.  Ease of fingering is a whole other issue.  I'm comfortable on 19 coming from a guitar background, but mandolin players may find that difficult to cope with.

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## zookster

I have gone through a number of tenors the last 15 years in my search for the sound I thought would compliment  Irish music. After being lately ambivalent, I am recommited to my banjo playing and currently having a fine time with it. (yeah, I know.....anybody who plays banjo needs to be "recommited.") Open backs, resonators, Regina, Orpheum #3,  no-names, Paramount Style C, 17 fret, 19 fret..........now I have settled on two resonator models, each with its own strength. I wouldn't hesitate taking them to a session, although I'd have to lay off the right hand attack.  My main instrument is a '24 17 fret Silver Bell #2.  It plays like a buzz bomb, very clear and precise.  My new banjo is a '25 Ludwig Ambassador Deluxe. It's got that "antique" sound, a little raspy, and as another member of the local session said the other night "It sounds like those Mick Moloney recordings." OK, I'll go with that. 

  A lot of people assume a 17 fret tenor must have a similarly short scale, but this is not always the case. The B&D comes in at a comfortable 22", while the Ludwig is just 22 3/4".   Sure, open backs are lighter, but I like the 'punch'  the resonator gives to the sound.

By the way, who can guess the original name for a resonator?  It was Paramount who came up with this innovation, and they called it an "Acousticon."   Almost every Irish player I've run into plays a 19 fret, resonator model.

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## Steve L

Just to muddy the waters a bit more, let's put arch topped tone rings into the mix.  I like 'em, myself.

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Clockwork John

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## Kieran

I would choose a 19 fret fitted with a remo fyberskyn head.
Kieran
http://www.moloneymusic.com

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## Eddie Sheehy

I have a 17-fret Bacon TB tuned GDAE - open back, a 19 fret Paramount Aristocrat tuned CGDA (capod 2 it's DAEB (very handy for IT) - resonator, and a Paramount Aristocrat Plectrum Banjo 23 fret 27" scale tuned GDAE - resonator.  I play Irish and American fiddle tunes on them, a bit of Ragtime, Swing, Blues... The 27" scale on the Plectrum banjo is a killer but I have fun.
The two Paramount banjos are Arch-top.

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## Mike Snyder

Personal preference as far as what sound you're looking for. I like plunky and old-timey, so mine are open-backed 17-fret, but I do alot more than just ITM. It's priceless to watch the Scruggs-style fellas faces while playing bluegrass on a short-neck. The open back sure makes it easy to stick a sock monkey in there for a mute.

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## Bob Clark

I can't say as I know anything about banjos at all, but I love the sound of Allison Brown's banjo.  I believe she uses nylon strings but beyond that I know nothing about her instrument. If you don't know about her, you can learn about her here http://compassrecords.com/alison-brown 

I find the banjo player in the Stray Birds has a similar sound to Allison's, but I don't know about her instrument either.  If you don't know about the Stray Birds, check them out here   http://www.thestraybirds.com/fr_home.cfm      I think we'll be hearing a whole lot more about them as time moves on.

The sound of these two banjos seems different to me than most others.  I've never been too big on banjo, but I could listen to Allison Brown play all day and half the night. I caught her band in a very poorly attended concert a year or so back.  They were mesmerizing.

Sorry for the digression, just my uninformed take on this whole banjo thing.

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## allenhopkins

> I can't say as I know anything about banjos at all, but I love the sound of Allison Brown's banjo.  I believe she uses nylon strings but beyond that I know nothing about her instrument…


Brown has played a pre-war Gibson, a Stelling Staghorn for years, and a Nechville, which is the one she's strung with nylon, I believe.

Of course, she's a *five-string* banjoist, with a bluegrass/newgrass/jazz style.  Quite different from "Irish" tenor banjo, which is strung, tuned and picked differently.

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Bob Clark

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## zoukboy

This is what I play:

It's an OME 19 fret tenor with a 12" pot with Silverspun tone ring and a resonator mounted without a flange.

When visiting the OME shop a few years ago I played their 11" tenors w/resonator and one 12" open back set up for Irish tuning. I wanted the high end of the 11" w/resonator but the low end of the 12" open back, so Chuck Ogsbury suggested I try the 12" with a press-fit Weymann resonator just as an experiment. That got close and so I ordered a 12" w/resonator. Later, after playing a friend's Jazz model with the Silverspun tone ring I switched from the rolled brass to the Silverspun. They were at first reluctant to combine those particular elements as they had never done it before but I talked them into it. It's a fantastic sounding instrument.

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## zoukboy

> Whoa! There's a can of worms right there Zoukboy. They in fact sound "different", as do open backs. It just depends on what you like. I have both and the 17 fret open back is indeed lighter and softer yet has a plunkyness the others lack. BTW I also have mine mounted with a K&K and it's is my main banjo.


I should have said, "most of the prominent Irish players use 19 fret tenors because they think they sound better."   :-)

I object to Gold Tone's characterization of a 17 fret as "Irish." It's inaccurate and creates a myth in pursuit of a marketing goal.

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bruce.b, 

Dan Hulse, 

Kieran

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## Taylor and Tenor

Thank you all for responding to both of my inquiries pertaining to tenor banjos.

I am looking for an instrument with GDAE tuning that I will fit in between my Kentucky KM 172 oval hole mandolin and my somewhat large bodied Aria AF tenor guitar with standard CGDA tuning for playing Irish fiddle tunes.  The Aria works well capoed at second fret (DAEB) for tunes in the key of D but leaves something desired when jumping around with finger patterns and string changes from the mandolin.

Hence the continued search for something easier with GDAE tuning.

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## allenhopkins

> ...I am looking for an instrument with GDAE tuning that I will fit in between my Kentucky KM 172 oval hole mandolin and my somewhat large bodied Aria AF tenor guitar with standard CGDA tuning for playing Irish fiddle tunes.search for something easier with GDAE tuning.


What you're looking for is called a "melody banjo," a short-scaled four-string instrument with a scale between mandolin and tenor banjo.  Unfortunately, they're pretty rare; they were a "solution in search of a problem," and never became popular.

Here's one:



A Google search reveals a few of them, some ornate Paramounts, and references to a Gibson model, the Style 11.

You might consider getting a decent tenor banjo, and having the neck modified to a shorter scale.  Or, play a regular scale tenor capoed.

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## Shelagh Moore

I generally play with a resonator although my Whyte Laydie has a pie-plate style resonator that can be spun off in a couple of seconds if I feel like a different sound. I also don't buy into the "Irish players prefer 19 fret tenor banjos" thing which sounds like a gross generalisation. I've been playing TB in ITM for at least 40 years now and have always preferred 17-fret short scale banjos as do a number of other players I know in Ireland, Scotland and Europe. Others of course prefer the "zinginess" of a longer scale. To each his or her own preference  :Wink:

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bruce.b

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## Taylor and Tenor

The majority of tenor banjos I have come across near where I live are 17 fret instruments but may be a regional thing.

I had  Trinity College mandola tuned CDGA for a while.  However, that lead to same problem as my tenor guitar.  Having started with a mandolin and knowing a number of TIM tunes with mandolin fingering, it presents a problem to me shifting over one string from the CGDA tuning and finding the high e, f and g notes on the A string.  The DAEB tuning is easier but a lower C note is missing

Which is why I am looking at a tenor banjo.  My other option is a short scale octave mandolin with a 20 inch scale length made by Trinity College or Gold Tone. I tried a zouk but was the neck was way too long.

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## Jim Garber

I figured I would just revive this thread rather than start a new one. 

I have been playing mandolin, fiddle and 5-string banjo over the decades I have played music, but have been interested in playing fiddle tunes on the banjo. I do like Irish music and other Celtic styles but am more of a generalist. I have been playing old time tunes on the tenor even tuning in cross-tuning for the key of A.

Last year, I found a Gibson TB-Junior for the right price and got the thing together to play in GDAE tuning. The scale is pretty short, tho: 19 inches. The upper strings seem to play in tune but the lower ones not so much especially the low G. The last set I had was the custom GHS set that Elderly sells. The bottom string is .042". Still working out the gauge for the lower strings (hence the rolled up string in the phote. The last 4th string I put on there is a .046. I do like the shorter scale since that way I can still finger it like a mandolin.

A friend of mine has a nice vintage Vega Style M with a Tubaphone tone ring and a larger pot with a skin head. I know that is not the ideal for an "Irish" banjo but for what I want it sounds pretty good. The scale I believe is 21". So I set out to buy one and found a decent deal on eBay tho the banjo needs a lot of cleaning up. I am not sure that the skin head will clean up more than the photo shows.

The Gibson BTW has no tone ring and has lots of tubby plunk (my new nickname). The Gibson is probably about half the weight of the Vega  I can even play it standing up without a strap.

I have been listening to a few of the prominent ITM banjo players, notably Enda Scahill, Gerry O'Connor and Angela Carberry. Great stuff and those folks are true magical musicians.

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## Jacob

A number of years ago, someone at the Banjo Hangout was selling simple round brass rod tone rings to upgrade Goodtime banjos that have no rings. It has changed the tone for the better. Friends that can actually play 5 strings have tried to buy it from me. It just sits under the head, in the middle of the rim. Maybe your Gibson would benefit for something of that sort?

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## Jim Garber

Thanks! Actually, I like the tone of the TB-Junior. As I noted, I am not looking to have that super-bright tone that a lot of the ITM players like. OTOH the Goodtime banjos have 11" rims and the TB-Junior has a sightly smaller rim, around 10-3/4". It is interesting but I think the Vega I got will have the tone I like and just have to see which strings work on it. 

I still own a B&D Silver Bell that would have that super bright sound but it also weighs quite a bit and I still am primarily a mandolin and fiddle player so the shorter scale works fine for me.

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## Shelagh Moore

I'm still using my 17 fret Vega Whyte Laydie in sessions. The rim on mine is 10.75" and, as mentioned before, I usually play with the resonator on (it takes just a few seconds to spin off if needed). A chunky G string is necessary and I think I'm running about a .046 at the moment.

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Jim Garber

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## Jim Garber

I have to really clean up this Vega. I may even replace the head tho dirty it sounds nice. Right now it has an old calfskin head. I look fwd to playing it tho I am having a lot of fun with the Gibson, too.

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## Mike Anderson

Not a banjo guy myself, but for John Carty it's open back: https://www.omebanjos.com/banjos/tenor/vintage/juniper/.

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## Jill McAuley

> Not a banjo guy myself, but for John Carty it's open back: https://www.omebanjos.com/banjos/tenor/vintage/juniper/.


I recently got an Ome Juniper open back tenor and they are AWESOME!

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Mike Anderson

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## Tim Griffin

I researched this a while back and ended up with a Paramount Type A. 19 fret, resonator, cuts through well, and responds well to dynamic playing. A relative deal at less than a grand, I think. The tuners break easily but other than that I haven't had any issues and its 90 years old. NFI there was a Paramount in the classifieds recently.

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## Mike Anderson

Here's what he says at his website:

"Having played and believed whole heartedly in vintage banjos all my life it was with some trepidation that I tried these brand new OME banjos. I was given a hand crafted instruments to try. The instrument had a 12inch pot and I took to it immediately. It has the depth of tone I constantly look for, coupled with an extra sustain which is a particularly great quality for Irish banjo players as this allows our music to breathe. I found I didn’t need to be quite so busy in order to highlight the essence of the tunes. The ability of the instrument to sustain and lengthen the notes has given me a new zest for playing the banjo. Another characteristic I enjoy about it is its immediate efficiency, there’s no wrestling with it like with older instruments, it stays in tune and every note is true even the low A, B and C on the G string which is such a plus. Basically it is ready to play as soon as you take it out of the case and I think it has definitely improved my playing. I am so looking forward to gigging with this instrument." 

Sounds like you made a good investment Jill!  :Smile:

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Jill McAuley

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## Reinhardt

Just looked up Eagle Music in UK who stock Omes, Jeez they're pretty expensive  £2,500. They'd want to be pretty good for that!! Personally, the best tenor banjos I've played have been paramounts. Every one i've played sounds fantastic. Never had one myself. Had a Bacon And Day silver bell which was pretty raucous and a Leedy Senator which was much more restrained but sounded better IMO. I cant really play tunes on the banjo anymore due to a muscular problem in my hand and more importantly, my wife hates the soiso I just have a cheapo chinese  job in case I ever get the notion to annoy the neighbours!!
und of it!!!!I used to play banjo at home a lot without the resonator on and I really loved the sound I got. A bit woody if that makes sense. Really struggled in sessions to be heard though. I'd buy a banjo with a resonator , at least you have the option of taking it off depending on where you play and what sound you want to get.

Best of luck with the banjo Jill. sounds like a fantastic instrument.

John

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Jill McAuley

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## Jill McAuley

> Just looked up Eagle Music in UK who stock Omes, Jeez they're pretty expensive  £2,500. They'd want to be pretty good for that!!


Yes, I'd never even considered one before because of how pricey they are but then lucked into finding one second hand and just couldn't pass up the opportunity as they don't show up often.

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## Reinhardt

That was a stroke of luck Jill. I had a similar experience when I bought my Nigel Forster Bouzouki.You just cant ignore a good bargain!!! Hope it brings you years of pleasure!!!

John

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Jill McAuley

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## Jeff Hildreth

FYI

Gerry (Banjo) O'Connor plays 19 fret resonator back banjos in the standard American (Jazz) tuning of CGDA  the majority of the time. He does play GDAE, but mostly for teaching purposes.  I spent a bit of time with him after a session/concert near Santa Rosa, Ca a few years back... we engaged in some "silver" tequila shooters...  He prefers longer scale 19 fret and CGDA, and resonator backs.

There is no such thing as an "Irish Tenor Banjo".    Unless it is a tenor banjo made by and Irishman.

My first "Irish" banjo was a 1925 Gibson TB-3 Ball Bearing for which I paid the princely sum of $200 to the original owner who bought it new in Moscow, Russia... True story.  I later made a conversion 5 speed neck for it and in a fit of poverty sold it to a player in Maryland who.. 40  years later still owns it.

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## John Flynn

I picked up a 17-fret Concertone from the 20's that was in great shape and was at a great price. I changed out the natural skin head, which was starting to deteriorate, with a Fiberskin and bought an upgraded bridge and an armrest for it. I had a luthier do a setup and change out the friction tuners with 5-star planetaries. It's not a high-end banjo, but I think it sounds good and plays really well. It is more than adequate for my humble level of play. 

One thing I really like about it is that the resonator comes off easily, so I can play it open back if I want to. Two completely different sounds for the price of one! The mode I play in depends on the situation. If I'm with a group that is a lot better than I am, I will likely go open-back and even put a cloth damper between the brace and the head so my bad notes don't stand out. If I really want to cut through in a loud group, I go with the resonator. I can be heard in the largest session with that resonator on.

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