# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Mandocello build thread

## sunburst

There have been a few "built threads" lately, and people seem to find them interesting, so I figured... what's one more?
I debated starting this because this will probably be a long term project (I'm busy with a lot of other things and the customer wants plenty of time to get the money together to pay the balance on completion, so it could be a year or more before it's done), and there could be considerable periods of time when there is no progress to report, but here goes anyway.
A friend (and great musician) has been talking about having a mandocello built for a couple of years, and he finally pulled the trigger and made his deposit, so work has begun. He particularly likes the look and sound of Mike Marshall's mandocello, so that was the jumping off point for designing this one. I decided to stick a little closer to the K4 than to Marshall's Monteleone, but I started drawing with a set of dimensions and little else. Points and scrolls and an oval hole were in the plan from the beginning, so after several days at the drawing table, and half a dozen modifications, I finally decided to consider the outline acceptable and start some actual wood work.
I had this red spruce top stashed away. It might have been big enough for an archtop guitar, but it had a large spike knot in it, so a portion of it was not useable. I found that I could slip the center joint a couple of inches and it would easily accommodate the outline of the 'cello, scroll and all.

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Avi Ziv, 

craigw, 

hank, 

JGWoods, 

John Gardinsky, 

Larry Nixon, 

Marty Jacobson, 

Max Girouard, 

scordatura, 

Tommcgtx, 

tonydxn, 

tree

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## sunburst

The back is hard maple. I forgot I had this wood, but I found it buried in one of the less tidy areas of the shop. I think I bought it for an octave mandolin project that never materialized sometime in the past. It is just big enough for this project, and it is quartered sugar maple. Looks like it probably came from Old Standard, judging by the hanging holes in the corners.

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craigw, 

Marty Jacobson, 

Max Girouard, 

Tommcgtx

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## sunburst

I sawed the out on the bandsaw, and so far this is about all the actual physical work I've done.

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CedarSlayer, 

craigw, 

Marty Jacobson, 

Max Girouard, 

Tommcgtx

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## sunburst

A drawing is one thing, but when you get these things sawed out you start to realize just how big they are! ("from when giant mandolins roamed the earth") The partially carved mandolin back helps put it in perspective.

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Bill Clements, 

craigw, 

Mandobart, 

Marty Jacobson, 

Max Girouard, 

Mike Conner, 

Tommcgtx, 

tree

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## kwerry

Very cool much different from the simple guitar bodied one I did looking forward to watching this..

Kerry

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## Bernie Daniel

Looking awesome so far -- this should be a monster thread!  Hurray!

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## Pete Jenner

Looking forward to this one.

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## Mike Conner

Very cool. And thank you for sharing the process and your thoughts with curious lurkers and wanna-be luthiers like me! //mike

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## Jim Garber

John: This may be obvious, but I assume that this will have an oval soundhole from your mention of the Monteleone and K4. Is that so? Also what kind of bracing are you planning to use and what scale will this be?

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## Ken Olmstead

Shazam!!! This is gonna be sweet!!

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## sunburst

Jim, yes it will have an oval hole. It will be X-braced, and John Monteleone assures me that an extra transverse brace between the sound hole and the head block is needed, so I'll put something there.

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craigw, 

Marty Jacobson

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## Jim Garber

Excellent, John. I am looking fwd to the progress here. Scale length?

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## sunburst

25" scale length.

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## bernabe

Always a treat and way too infrequent when you post your builds, John.

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## Nevin

I will be watching this one.

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## 59jazz

OH YES.....subbed!

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## sunburst

A little progress, not of the glamorous variety, but things that have to be done: blocks.

Corner blocks, as usual, from paulownia.

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hank, 

Tommcgtx

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## sunburst

Even though I have stock big enough to cut the head block from a solid piece of wood, I decided to make a laminated head block to help prevent splitting. A mandocello has a lot of string tension and a lot of leverage with the long neck, so an impact to the neck is more likely to cause failure at the neck joint than it is with a mandolin. Failure at the joint is likely to be from a split head block, so lamination from pieces with opposing grain makes the block more split-resistant.

I prepared a piece of 2" thick stock then ripped it to two just-under 1" thick pieces.

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Charles E., 

hank, 

Tommcgtx

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## sunburst

Why would I rip that stock on the table saw when there is a 30" bandsaw a few feet away, you might ask? It's because there is a 1/4" blade in the bandsaw right now, and I can change the blade in the table saw and make two passes to rip the piece in less time than it would take to get the blade off of the bandsaw, let alone put a rip blade in and set up the saw. Also, I'll be needing the 1/4" blade in the bandsaw soon, so I'd just have to change it back.

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Tommcgtx

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## sunburst

I cut three squares, then set them under a heat lamp to warm them for gluing. I'm laminating with hot hide glue, and since the surfaces are about 6" square, and I need to glue two of them, I'll need some extra working time. The heated parts give me plenty of time to spread the glue, assemble the parts and clamp them.


Heating doesn't, however, give me time to stop in the middle of the procedure and take pictures, so you'll just have to visualize spreading the glue with the glue brush, stacking the slippery pieces and assembling them in the clamps... all with only two hands!

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hank, 

Tommcgtx

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## tree

I would guess that you scrounged and prepared your Paulownia from scratch, since you probably can without too much difficulty.  Thanks for going to the time and effort to post this, John. I love this stuff.

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## sunburst

Clark, you would be correct about that.
Most of this came from a tree that was cut to clear a power line right-of-way just down the road, and left to lie on the ground.

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hank, 

Tommcgtx

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## CedarSlayer

All that and recovered wood!   I can't wait to hear how it sounds!

If it sounds anything like Mike Marshals, please say you will sell patterns!

Bob

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## sunburst

A few hours have passed since gluing up the head block laminate, so it's ready to saw out.

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hank, 

Tommcgtx

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## sunburst

After a little work at the spindle sander, here is the set of blocks for the rim of the 'cello.

The edge of the laminated head block looks like this.

Here's the shape at this point. After I bend the sides to form the rim I'll fit it to the sides in the form.

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Tommcgtx

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## Pete Jenner

Struth mate you've nearly finished!!! Slow down so I can take notes.

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## John Kelly

A superb project, John.

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## Dan of SC

Jonh, What exactly is a mandocello. I thought they were about the same size as a mandola but with 25" scale it must be bigger. Is it about the same as an octave? How will it tune?       Thanks, Danny

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## sunburst

A mandocello fits into the "mandolin family" in the same place as a violoncello fits into the "violin family". It is tuned CGDA, one octave below a mandola (or viola), the same as a cello. An octave mandolin, by contrast, is tuned GDAE one octave below a mandolin.
So, we have; violin, viola, violoncello, and double bass making up the violin family, and we have; mandolin, mandola, mandocello, and mandobass making up the mandolin family. Octave mandolin is a newer instrument that wasn't/isn't commonly used in mandolin orchestras, and as far as I know, there is no corresponding "octave violin", but I could certainly be wrong about that.

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## sunburst

A little more non-glamorous progress. Since this is my first mandocello I didn't have a form. A trip to the hardware store and a trip to a local cabinetmaker (and musician) for some scrap plywood, and here's my form for building the body. I used some scrap lumber for the 'spreader'. Now, when time permits, I can bend the sides and glue up the rim.

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Avi Ziv, 

Bernie Daniel, 

hank, 

Tommcgtx, 

Vernon Hughes

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## Dan of SC

Hey John, This form and spreaders look great. What are those black round things at the ends of the turnbuckles? Do they come with the turnbuckles or are they something you have to make?     Thanks, Danny

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## Bluetickhound

Good stuff! I'm in Guatemala right now and as you might expect, 'net service is spotty at best... when I get back home I should have packages waiting.on.me to get back working on my project. 

John, I'm sure you have been asked this a million times but what is your take on inside (as opposed to outside) molds?

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## Pete Jenner

> Hey John, This form and spreaders look great. What are those black round things at the ends of the turnbuckles? Do they come with the turnbuckles or are they something you have to make?     Thanks, Danny



In Australia we call them washers.

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## Beanzy

[QUOTE=sunburst;1261266]Octave mandolin is a newer instrument that wasn't/isn't commonly used in mandolin orchestras/QUOTE]

...just a wee tidy-up in that what gets called octave mandolin is actually the original mandola instrument. 
It's the 'real deal' with the newer CGDA mandoliola being the new boy on the block, of which Raneri and Embergher seem to have been the main proponents so people could just replicate the Classical quartet and use the same music, read out of the same clefs and sound in the same registers. The older quartets with mandola (GDAE/Octave mandolin) are often referred to as Romantic Quartets. So alll those octave tuned mandolas are more 'mandolinny' in a sense than the wannabe viola tuned ones.

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hank, 

sunburst, 

tonydxn

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## sunburst

> ...I'm sure you have been asked this a million times but what is your take on inside (as opposed to outside) molds?


I've always used an outside mold for mandolins, so I don't have an informed opinion on inside molds. I can see distinct advantages to using an inside mold for violins, but the typical point-and-scroll-bearing-mando-thing (there, that should take in everything from mandolin to mandocello) has an overlapping side piece covering the lower point block inside the rim, so using techniques similar to violin construction, with an inside mold is complicated by that.
As I see it, if it gets the job done, it's fine, and both get the job done. If one is easier than the other, that's an advantage. If we're used to one or the other, that's and advantage, and I'm used to an outside mold.

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hank

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## sunburst

> In Australia we call them washers.


Good call. Fender washers, to be exact. There just a way to hold the big round ends of the turnbuckles in place with a single screw.

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## Bernie Daniel

> A mandocello fits into the "mandolin family" in the same place as a violoncello fits into the "violin family". It is tuned CGDA, one octave below a mandola (or viola), the same as a cello. An octave mandolin, by contrast, is tuned GDAE one octave below a mandolin.
> So, we have; violin, viola, violoncello, and double bass making up the violin family, and we have; mandolin, mandola, mandocello, and mandobass making up the mandolin family. Octave mandolin is a newer instrument that wasn't/isn't commonly used in mandolin orchestras, and as far as I know, there is no corresponding "octave violin", but I could certainly be wrong about that.


There is a "tenor violin" that is today mostly a viola with heavier strings tuned down an octave from the violin.  They are beautiful sounding IMO.  Historically I think there was a violin shaped instrument in between the viola and the cello in both size and pitch but it fell from favor for some reason?

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## Bernie Daniel

> A little more non-glamorous progress. Since this is my first mandocello I didn't have a form. A trip to the hardware store and a trip to a local cabinetmaker (and musician) for some scrap plywood, and here's my form for building the body. I used some scrap lumber for the 'spreader'. Now, when time permits, I can bend the sides and glue up the rim.


Very cool!  Now that you have the forms I guess you'll be making at least one mandocello a year?  Need to get that return on investment eh? :Smile:

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## Tavy

> There is a "tenor violin" that is today mostly a viola with heavier strings tuned down an octave from the violin.  They are beautiful sounding IMO.  Historically I think there was a violin shaped instrument in between the viola and the cello in both size and pitch but it fell from favor for some reason?


I suspect because it was like trying to stick a guitar under your chin  :Smile:

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## sunburst

> Very cool!  Now that you have the forms I guess you'll be making at least one mandocello a year?  Need to get that return on investment eh?


_At least_ one per year, I'm sure... :Whistling: 
Actually, there may never be another. That's one of the things about this business. My mandolin forms have been used many times, so the work that went into them is prorated over multiple instruments. My mandola form is in it's third use as we speak, my octave mandolin form has been used once, and this one is just now being put to use for the first time, and I still have to make a carving cradle for the top and back. Is it any wonder production shops seldom do custom shapes and new models?
Even though this form may turn out to be a single use item, I can't directly charge the customer for the time to build it. It wouldn't be right to charge the first mandocello customer for tooling up any more than it would be right to charge the first mandolin customer for tooling up. Still, there will be much more time spent sanding the 'cello than making the form and carving cradle, so in the grand scheme of things, it's not such a major expense.

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## Bernie Daniel

> I suspect because it was like trying to stick a guitar under your chin


LOL!  There is a neuron in my brain that seems to recall a statement that explained that these instruments were played cello-like between the knees?

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## Bernie Daniel

> _At least_ one per year, I'm sure...
> Actually, there may never be another. That's one of the things about this business. My mandolin forms have been used many times, so the work that went into them is prorated over multiple instruments. My mandola form is in it's third use as we speak, my octave mandolin form has been used once, and this one is just now being put to use for the first time, and I still have to make a carving cradle for the top and back. Is it any wonder production shops seldom do custom shapes and new models?
> Even though this form may turn out to be a single use item, I can't directly charge the customer for the time to build it. It wouldn't be right to charge the first mandocello customer for tooling up any more than it would be right to charge the first mandolin customer for tooling up. Still, there will be much more time spent sanding the 'cello than making the form and carving cradle, so in the grand scheme of things, it's not such a major expense.


I assume the neck will be a modification of an arch top guitar neck?  

But I guess you will also have to carve a mandocello bridge, make a tail-piece -- lot's of custom stuff.   

Do you plan to do a treble side extension on the fret board?  

On the 3 mandocellos that I by conversion the scale lengths the guitars were 24.75", 25" and 22.5".  But in all 3 cases I went with 25 frets under the D and A courses and 22 frets under the C and G courses.  

These fret boards were all about 1.5" at the nut (1.6" including the binding) and they tapered out to 1.9" at the 12th fret (2.0" including binding).

Those dimensions were copied off the 1936 K-1 I have here.  All the fret boards I made were two frets longer then the K-1 because the jumbo body size was so much bigger.

This should be a great project to follow!

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## sunburst

> I assume the neck will be a modification of an arch top guitar neck?  
> 
> Do you plan to do a treble side extension on the fret board?


1- Not really, it will be a big mandolin neck, more or less. Since it's being built from scratch, there is no reason to make a modified guitar neck. A lot will depend on the customer, whom I'll work closely with to determine the neck size and shape.

2- I plan a slight treble extension, in that I'll probably use my usual S-curve end of the fingerboard. It's more for looks than anything else, I rather doubt that the last few frets will be used, and a square cut-off fingerboard just doesn't fit the curvy design of the thing, IMO.

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## sunburst

I got a chance to fire up the bending iron and scorch some wood. This maple wasn't easy to bend so I bent it pretty hot and I'll have to spend some time sanding away some scorch marks. 
It's hard to bend a piece of wood right to the end because there is no leverage to form the bend. I was hoping I could do that, though, because I had stock _just_ long enough to bend the scroll-side piece from one piece of wood... if I could bend it right to the end and if nothing went wrong. The grain cracked in the scroll bend, so I had to cut a couple of inches off and revert to plan B, being a butt joint at the tail block (as is usual with a pear-shaped or "A" shape), no big deal.
Because of leverage being useful when bending wood, I ended up with this curious shape for the point side piece.

Rather than cut the piece into lengths for the individual pieces of the rim, I bent all the parts for the point side rim from a continuous piece so I had wood to use for bending leverage and so that I would have less scrap and be able to get the whole rim from two pieces of wood. Here are the parts cut from the continuous piece.

Here are the parts for the whole rim.

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Beanzy, 

Bernie Daniel, 

hank, 

Tommcgtx

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## sunburst

I believe the question; "why is an F so much more expensive than an A?" may have come up one or two times (well, OK, maybe one or two _hundred_ times). This is where the reasons start; bending the parts for the rim. Compare those parts to the two parts you see here in the mandola that is also in progress around here.

Only two pieces and two tight bends compared to 4 or 5 pieces, 7 tight bends and 3 miters. (Something to think about?)

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hank

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## sunburst

Here are the rim parts adjusted in length and fitted into the form.


Remember those blocks from a few posts back? Here they are ready to be fit to the rim.


Once again, in an A there are two blocks as opposed to 4 for an F. Each block has to be hand fit to the rim for good glue joints; two relatively easy ones in an A, one relatively easy one and three complicated ones in an F.

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belorsch, 

hank, 

Tommcgtx

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## Dan of SC

John, I hope I'm not bugging you with dumb questions but do the screw parts of these turnbuckles have a loop on the end like an eye screw? Just trying to learn.    Thanks, Danny

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## sunburst

Yes, the ends are like screw eyes. I fit them pretty closely into the recessed holes, so that is where the pressure is applied, the screws and washers just keep them in there and keep the eyes from turning.

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Tommcgtx

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## sunburst

While I'm waiting for the glue to dry, here is the rim after fitting all the blocks, gluing them in place, clamping the head and tail block and using the spreader to clamp the corner blocks. I'll remove the clamps in a few hours, clean the rim up a little and get it ready for installing the linings for the top.

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Tommcgtx

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## sunburst

A little cleaning up, inside and out, and here's the glued-up rim. Still a few scorch marks, but there's still plenty of sanding to do.
For now, it will stay in the form to maintain the shape. Thin pieces of bent wood, like the sides, tend to either straighten out (usually) or bend tighter (rarely) if left free to move, so keeping the rim in the form will keep it in shape until the top is glued on.

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Marc Berman, 

Tommcgtx

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## AaronVW

Looks great!  Now I'm getting the itch to start building again....

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## sunburst

A little decidedly non-glamorous work with some plywood scraps, and I have my carving cradle mostly done. I did a little wood wasting on the top with the Saf-T-Planer so that I don't have to carve away as much spruce with my aching fingers. No particular plan, just continuing the angle of the wedge-shaped halves of the top all the way around to remove wood with no worries of cutting too deep. I'll carve the arch by eye later.

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hank, 

Tommcgtx

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## Mandoborg

Anyone else notice no matter how many of these things you build, you still enjoy watching  build threads ?? It's what's so great about lutherie !! Thanks for posting this stuff John, and dispensing so much good advice on here. One tip that i'm sure you're aware of that i got a long time ago was , if you get some sides that are particularly hard to bend,  take a piece of clean, white-t shirt , a soak it in some water, ring it out  and drop it right on the pipe. That helped me tremendously and i use it every-time i bend no matter what wood or figure now just out of habit. I use a clean piece every-time so nothing accidentally gets in/on the wood,and just that little bit of steaming cloth between the wood and the iron seems to keep me from scorching.

Jim

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hank, 

Karl Hoyt, 

Tommcgtx

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## sunburst

Good advice, Jim. Actually, I had been bending rosewood and mahogany most recently, so some of the marks weren't so much scorch marks as they were cooked-in residue from the "junk" on the bending iron. I scrubbed it with a wire brush before starting, but still... 
This maple (at just under .080") wanted to bend at a temperature that seemed to be about half a degree hotter than when scorch marks started showing up. I didn't think about the wet rag trick... should have tried it.

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## AlsMusicShopNY

This is a great thread, thanks for posing all these great pictures.  I have built a few brass instruments, but never built anything out of wood.  I have nothing but respect for craftsmen of all sorts.  Very impressive.

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## Pete Jenner

> this will probably be a long term project (I'm busy with a lot of other things and the customer wants plenty of time to get the money together to pay the balance on completion, so it could be a year or more before it's done), and there could be considerable periods of time when there is no progress to report, but here goes anyway.


Really?  :Wink:

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## Bernie Daniel

> Really?


You are not getting a bit cynical down there in the Great Southern Lands eh? --heck you should be enjoying SUMMER!!  :Smile:

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## sunburst

Building an instruments is like building a house in that it looks fast in the early stages. When a house is being framed, it goes from looking like a low cement wall to looking like a house in a few days! Then comes wiring, plumbing, mechanical, flooring, wall treatment, trim, etc. etc., and it looks like the contractor went to the Bahamas with all the bucks he got from framing the house!
Fear not, this project will slow down (haven't even started the plumbing yet  :Wink: ).

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## Pete Jenner

> You are not getting a bit cynical down there in the Great Southern Lands eh? --heck you should be enjoying SUMMER!!


I meant that in the best way of course. So far I'm highly impressed and taking copious notes.

It's freezing here at the moment Bernie. We haven't had much of a summer up here in Bleakheath.

Looking forward to the plumbing though.

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## Bernie Daniel

> It's freezing here at the moment Bernie. We haven't had much of a summer up here in Bleakheath.
> 
> Looking forward to the plumbing though.


No, that can't be with world getting warmer!  LOL!   This should be a fun project to watch!

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## sunburst

In this case it's strictly acoustic, so no electricians required.

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## wildpikr

Bump.... :Popcorn:

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## sunburst

Yep, this is one of those "periods of time when there is no progress to report" that I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. Lots going on around here, hoping for time to do some carving of the top soon...

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## Bluetickhound

I actually meant to ask you about this build yesterday... Glad to see it got bumped up!

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## sunburst

I found a few minutes to do a little work on the 'cello.
I believe we left off here:

I used a couple of planes to waste wood down to the edges of the rough contour lines left by the Saf-T-Planer.

With that wood out of the way, I made a preliminary cut for the "re-curve" area to establish a uniform-depth tough around the edge.

As you can see, I carved into some color in the wood. No problem, the sunburst will cover it.

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## sunburst

At this time, I have the center height established and the trough height established, and I've started carving the arch and checking the shape and symmetry using a marking gauge. Here's what I started with, just from eye-balling the arch shape.

A little more refining...

...and onward from here. Pretty boring for a while, I'll try to photo some steps along the way to the completed top arch.

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Tommcgtx

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## Pete Jenner

Yawn... ...just kidding.  :Wink: 
I was thinking about this a few days ago and hoping you would be doing more soon.

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## Bernie Daniel

Looking very nice indeed.   

John at one point you mentioned a 25" scale but I don't think any other dimensions have been discussed.  From the one pic with a mandolin back on top of the mandocello back it looks the box will be about 14 -15 wide and  17 - 18" long?  How deep will it be?

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## sunburst

The width is about 15 1/8" to 15 1/4" I don't remember the body length right off and I'm not in the shop where I can measure. The depth is still undecided, but it will be under 3". I _think_ I remember thinking of maybe 2 5/8" or so, but I'll have to look back at some earlier work to remember where I was on that.

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Bernie Daniel, 

hank

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## sunburst

OK, here's the top after scraping and checking the contours with the marking gauge. It's lying on my down draft sanding table with a side light to allow me to see the contours of the arch.

I started out with coarse sandpaper (80 grit because I let myself run out of 60 grit) smoothing the recurve area, just using a folded 1/4sheet of sandpaper, fingers and thumb.

I sanded the whole recurve area...

Then moved on to a sanding block to smooth out the scraper marks.

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## sunburst

To make sure I'm keeping the arch symmetrical, I draw contour lines, using my marking gauge, periodically throughout the carving of the outside of the arch. Here are the lines, and a 12" scale held down to the top. I got this one pretty well centered so I don't have to do much work to get it symmetrical. I'll do some selective sanding to smooth up the curves of the contour lines as I continue to sand, continuing to check with the marking gauge and side lighting.

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## sunburst

Bernie, the body length is 19 1/4" and the rim depth (preliminary) is currently just over 2 1/2" It might get to be a little less after gluing the linings and re-surfacing for gluing the plates.

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## Michael Lewis

It's starting to look pretty good, John.  We know it will get better too.  I'm looking forward to seeing your final steps.

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## Bluetickhound

Nice work John. I am about tostart on my plates (or I will be as soon as I can buy or borrow a thickness planer to get my top and back whittled down to size...) and the tip on maintaining symmetry is right on time!

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## Bernie Daniel

It is going to be a monster that is for sure!  Watching that top come to life is just great.

re post #71:  I don't think that I ever knew you could buy those metal engineer's rulers in 12" size (or I'd have one!) -- I have collected three of the 6" ones -- its often handy to have 1/64" markings.

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## Jim Garber

> re post #71:  I don't think that I ever knew you could buy those metal engineer's rulers in 12" size (or I'd have one!) -- I have collected three of the 6" ones -- its often handy to have 1/64" markings.


I am a graphic artist and I have a set of *Schaedler Precision Rulers* which not only are super accurate but flexible. They come in English units and metric as well as printer's units.

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Bernie Daniel

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## sgrexa

> I sawed the out on the bandsaw, and so far this is about all the actual physical work I've done.


John,

Fascinating stuff thank you for posting. Pardon my ignorance, but can you explain the color variation in these plates? I actually thought I was looking at more than one top / back until carefully examining these photos. In some shots the back appears to be tri colored on one side. Maybe you added some stain to show the figure? Same thing with the top, in the last shot I see a creamy colored center strip and the sides almost appear to have flame? Thanks!

Sean

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## sunburst

Sean, the pieces of wood that I used for the top and back were cut as wedge-shaped, book matches pieces. I bought the maple as two wedge-shaped pieces (from Old Standard, IIRC) and I cut the spruce wedges from a split billet taken from a tree from a mountain top in West Virginia. All pieces had been cut to the wedge shape for a pretty long time. As wood is exposed top the atmosphere and to light, the surface changes color. Light colored woods, like maple and spruce, darken as the surface "oxidizes" from exposure.
I made the center joints by gluing the thick edges of the wedges together and then I ran the pieces through the thickness sander to reduce the center thickness to a little more than my desired arch height. What you are seeing is the old, oxidized, darker surface to the outside and the new, sanded, lighter surface in the center of the pieces. What you are seeing that looks like flame is saw marks from the bandsaw I used to saw the wedge shaped pieces from the billet. All this stuff is more obvious when you can see the wood in person rather than in images, and I'm so used to seeing wood in all stages of work that I don't even notice the things you pointed out, so I forget that images can be confusing. The images where the color looks the same on the whole plate are the surfaces that will go to the inside of the instrument. Those surfaces have been sanded level so they are all the same (newer, lighter) color.

----------

sgrexa

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## sunburst

I usually carve mandolin backs first (before the top) for the same reason I start fret work at the bridge end of the fingerboard. It gets easier as I go! I usually just rough out the arch using the Saf-T-Planer then do the rest of the carving by hand (unless I have the blank rough carved by CNC) For this project, CNC was not an option because nobody has the measurements for the instrument... heck, I don't even have the measurements for the back arch, or at least I didn't until now. I decided I wanted to waste wood with the Saf-T-Planer much closer to the final arch this time to save myself more hand carving (and hand pain) than usual, so I carved the top first. Unlike Dave is doing in his curtate cycloid thread, I like to shape my arches by eye. My eye doesn't like the curtate cycloid arch as much as a slightly different arch, so I work by eye rather than from specific measurements. I could start with the cycloid and then modify it more to my liking, but I've always done it this way so... 
This is why I carved the top first this time. Spruce is so much easier to carve than maple that it doesn't take much time and effort to establish an aesthetic arch. I decided to do that, then transfer the top arch to the back plate and modify it for the somewhat different shape.
I set my marking gauge to _specific measurements_, and I decided on 2mm increments. First, I made this little gauge so I could set the marking gauge to the specific measurements.
 
Here are the contour marks on the top arch. It's like a topo map, and it gives me the contour lines to use for arching the back to "match" the top. Here I've transferred the contour lines to the back by simple measurement and modified them for the back shape.

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## sunburst

My next step was to drill depth gauge holes on the contour lines to the proper depth. I used my little home made gauge to set the depth stop on the drill press...

...and drilled each contour line to the correct (whew!) depth.

I then did the same thing with the Saf-T-Planer (set the depth stop in 2mm increments) and hogged off the excess wood right to my contour lines.

----------

Duct Tape, 

hank, 

tree

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## sunburst

I then started the first real hand work on the back plate. The verdict: it's hard wood! It chips easily and resists cutting, requiring frequent tool changes and carving direction changes. Carving the back isn't going to be as much fun as carving the top!
Anyway, I started the hand work by sawing a kerf to separate the scroll from the arch.

Then I used a mallet and gouge to get rid of the excess wood in that area where I couldn't get to with the Saf-T-Planer.

----------

hank

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## sunburst

Using this arsenal of tools, I hogged off the excess wood down to the depth gauge holes, and since I did the contour lines and measured depth holes, I know I'm rough carved much closer to the final arch than I normally would be at this step.

From here I'll carve the preliminary recurve as I did on the top and refine the arch from there.

----------

hank

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## tree

Thanks for the time you take to provide images and information, John.  I may never build an instrument but I can't seem to get enough of this thread.  I understand that progress will be intermittent, but I am thrilled whenever I see you've added to it.  Everybody's wheels turn a little different, and I love learning from the different approaches folks take to solving basic problems.

Totally dig the old saw, I've never seen one with a depth gauge like that one.  Dig the homemade depth gauge, and the homemade "palm" for that big Ibex plane.  Like the squirrel tail plane, too - is it a Stanley, or some other maker?

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## wildpikr

Thanks for the pictures and explanations; it's a fascinating process.

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## sunburst

> Like the squirrel tail plane, too - is it a Stanley, or some other maker?


That little tool was given to me by a fellow. I helped his son out on a college project (building a guitar!) and he gave me that and another tool or two. I don't know who made it, but as you can see it has AMT prominently cast into the handle. As it is, it doesn't offer much control and I don't use it much, but when other tools are not giving good results, like this case with the hard, chip-prone curly maple, sometimes it removes wood easier than other tools. I suppose I could do some set up and modification to improve it, but all those old yard sale chisels and gouges have been waiting longer.

The little Diston back saw with the depth gauge was hanging in an "antique" store (junk shop would be closer). I payed too much money for it, but it was just so cool...

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tree

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## Bluetickhound

I got one of these and it has worked really well on the test pieces I have used it on...

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/Produ...ing-Gouge.aspx

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## sunburst

I tried one of those that a friend owns. It was OK I guess, but It didn't really do anything better than the tools I have, at least for me.

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## Bluetickhound

If you have something that does essentially the same work there's no benefit in having one, I agree... but I haven't gotten to that point yet! One thing (besides finding the time!) that has slowed me down on my H5 more than anything else is having to buy tools along the  way... my next builds (oh yes... there will be more... this is FUN!!) should progress a good bit more rapidly.

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## BradKlein

But it's "coated with titanium nitrate"!! Come to think of it, that might be a nice finish for the 'cello when the time comes. :Wink:

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## Mandoborg

John, i feel your pain, literally !! I'm working on a maple back, from Maine, that while it looks like all the other Maple i've bought from up that way, this piece is like carving granite !!! I'm getting maybe twenty strokes out of the plane before i can actually feel the edge starting to give out !!!  Keep at it, it's all worth it in the end !

Jim

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## BradKlein

In all seriousness, I was a cabinetmaker in another life - long enough to know that there is maple and there is MAPLE. And truthfully, I never developed the edge-tool skills to deal with hard figured maple in the contours of a carved back instrument. 

John, can you generalize about the 'hardness' of maple and the tone of the instrument, or at least how that equation factored into your choice of wood on this project? Does harder equal 'brighter' or does the carving outweigh that one quality? I seem to remember that harder did correlate with heavier, and that'd be a factor as well.

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## sunburst

Harder almost always means heavier, or more dense, to be more correct about it. Sometimes harder doesn't mean harder to carve though. Sometimes wood is "tough" It feels like trying to cut something with a surface just flexible enough to keep it from cutting easily. Add to that the tendency for the curly grain to chip out and that's a difficult piece of wood to carve whether soft or hard.
Why did I choose this pieces for the back? Frankly, it was the only piece I had that was big enough! I had a piece of silver maple (softer, easier to carve) picked out, but I was going to have to glue little 1/4" to 1/2" wings on the edges to make it wide enough. Then I found this piece in the shop, that I had forgotten. It is big enough, it's an attractive and high quality piece of wood, so I'm using it.
I can't really generalize about sound and hardness. I've used back wood from very hard (sugar maple) to pretty darned soft and light (bigleaf and euro), and when I finish a mandolin it always sounds a lot like the last one. I tend to compensate for hardness and stiffness when planing and carving the arch, thickness and graduation, so the sound always comes out very similar. I've heard said, and I tend to agree, that softer woods give us more room for error while harder woods must be worked very close to optimally to give us a good sound.
I've been doing less hand-intensive work today, so my fingers are recovering. I might carve the re-curve this evening.
Sometimes I tape the fingers of my right hand, like athletes tape ankles and wrists, for sessions of carving. That seems to help some.

----------

BradKlein, 

Tommcgtx

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## sunburst

I finally got the recurve area chewed out... kind of looks like I hired a beaver to do it because of the chatter marks, chips, and lines left by the finger planes in this tough wood, but it's turning out OK. Here is the recurve, freshly carved and the first set of contour lines to judge the shape and symmetry of the arch. Because of the drilled depth gauge holes, it's pretty much dead center from the start.

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## sunburst

I took a little more time and started to refine the arch shape...

From here, I'll do a little more work with the finger planes then move on to scrapers and then sandpaper, but now I have to quit having fun with this and get back to work. Folks are waiting on repairs (and instruments) while I'm making wood chips, after all.

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## Pete Jenner

Hmmm ...a beaver eh? *tick tick tick* (that's me thinking)  How much do think they charge per hour?

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## sunburst

They usually charge by the job, but if hourly, union scale.

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## BradKlein



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sunburst

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## sunburst

Going back to wood and how some hard wood can be easy to carve, and vise versa. I just got off the phone with Dale Ludwig, who does my CNC milling for me. He said this mandola back is the hardest piece of maple he's ever put in his CNC machine, but it carves just great with a finger plane. Go figure...

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## Bernie Daniel

> Going back to wood and how some hard wood can be easy to carve, and vise versa. I just got off the phone with Dale Ludwig, who does my CNC milling for me. He said this mandola back is the hardest piece of maple he's ever put in his CNC machine, but it carves just great with a finger plane. Go figure...


Hard wood does not equal "tough" and the reverse?

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## sunburst

It's hard to communicate what I mean my tough, but people who have carved a lot of wood probably know what I mean. Anyone who has worked with much tulip poplar wood knows how much easier it is to cut the heartwood than to cut the sapwood. The heartwood is probably harder, but the sapwood is tougher. I've been trying to think of something common to use as an analogy, but I'm having trouble with that. Lets try this: Suppose you're on a camping trip and you're sharing your snacks with someone. Among your food items you have some carrots and some beef jerky. I'd say the carrot is harder, but if you want to cut each in half I'd say you'd have an easier time cutting the carrot in half than the beef jerky. One is harder, the other is tougher.

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## Pete Jenner

Sounds like a great meal. Did you bring any cheese?

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## sunburst

Limburger!

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Pete Jenner

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## sunburst

Good news!
Well, maybe not for you, but for me. This stuff scrapes _way_ easier than it carves with finger planes. Here it is with all the "beaver" marks scraped away. A little more arch refining with scrapers and it's on to making dust (sanding).

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## Bluetickhound

Even in my extremely limited experience I have seen that for the really hard scraps of maple I have been practicing on that my scapers have been the best option for shaping... I thought I was just "cheating" but I guess whatever method gets the job done is the one to use... the test pieces of spruce are comparatively butterlike in their softness... I don't worry (much) about having trouble getting my top carved into shape but I am concerned about the back. I haven't touched either with any tools yet as I still need to get them thicknessed down to size but I have been working scrap pieces like a madman... the harder the wood the sooner I find myself going straight to the scrapers. Having to frequently stop and burnish them is a pain but the results speak for themselves...

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## sunburst

You'll find that maple and spruce scrape very differently. Hard woods in general scrape much more easily than soft woods like spruce.
You can scrape maple nearly any direction of the grain while spruce only scrapes well in the direction of the grain, and the proper direction of the grain at that. The scraper you see in the photo is a card scraper. It's not shaped like a card, more like a flat egg, but it is filed to a 90 degree edge with a burr turned on each side. For spruce, I use smaller, thinner scrapers filed and ground to a 45 degree angle with a light burr on only the one edge. It needs to be very sharp.
BTW, I scraped that maple back to this point with only one sharpening of the scraper. The edge should last you a while if the scraper is made of good steel. I did use two different scrapers, so one scraper didn't do all the work on the back, but I only had to sharpen one of them.

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## Bernie Daniel

> You'll find that maple and spruce scrape very differently. Hard woods in general scrape much more easily than soft woods like spruce.
> You can scrape maple nearly any direction of the grain while spruce only scrapes well in the direction of the grain, and the proper direction of the grain at that. The scraper you see in the photo is a card scraper. It's not shaped like a card, more like a flat egg, but it is filed to a 90 degree edge with a burr turned on each side. For spruce, I use smaller, thinner scrapers filed and ground to a 45 degree angle with a light burr on only the one edge. It needs to be very sharp.
> BTW, I scraped that maple back to this point with only one sharpening of the scraper. The edge should last you a while if the scraper is made of good steel. I did use two different scrapers, so one scraper didn't do all the work on the back, but I only had to sharpen one of them.


Wow this is all good stuff -- I liked your jerky and carrot analogy and I know exactly what you meant.

I know this is a little OT but relevant I think.  Did it take a long time to learn how to create good scrapers?  I've read about is several times and it still seems a bit like witchcraft to me?

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## BradKlein

I know that the question was to John, but I'll jump in to say that as a cabinet maker, I learned to sharpen scrapers from Tage Frid the influential teacher at RISD. He was a scraper evangelist and it's not hard to learn.

Looks like his books are still in print, with a DVD??? Modern times…

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Vernon Hughes

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## Bernie Daniel

> I know that the question was to John, but I'll jump in to say that as a cabinet maker, I learned to sharpen scrapers from Tage Frid the influential teacher at RISD. He was a scraper evangelist and it's not hard to learn.
> 
> Looks like his books are still in print, with a DVD??? Modern times…


Great tip -- Fab!! Thanks!  I've always wanted to learn that -- I have lucked out a few times but I'd like to be able to fashion scrapers of the size and shape that I want --  consistently!  This mandocello build is a thread where the advantage of a good scraper becomes obvious.

Those small fine maple shavings and the smooth surface that resulted in John's post #103 are very impressive to me -- yes, I realize that I am easily amused.

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Pete Jenner

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## sunburst

> ...I learned to sharpen scrapers from Tage Frid...


As I understand it, he used scrapers between coats of lacquer or varnish. Something I had tried on primers and early lacquer coats to save sanding (before I knew about Tage Frid), but it's hard to imagine such a fine edge on a scraper that it could be used to level lacquer for late coats!
Bernie, yes I did have some trouble learning to sharpen scrapers, but that is mostly because those who taught me weren't very good at it, so I had to mostly figure it out for myself. As for "creating" scrapers, I haven't had much luck with that. I've tried making them form old saw blades, as I'm told works very well, but I must not have ever gotten a good saw blade. Some scrapers, Two Cherries and Diston, for example, have suited me particularly well. Others, such as Sandvik are good, but the edge seems more fragile, so are best for lighter work than this. 

...But I've put the scrapers away for now and moved on to dust making.
I used my Speedblock sander and a rubber sanding block (along with folded sandpaper for the recurve) and sanded the outside of the back to 80 grit. That's enough for now, the inside will be carved, and eventually the scroll, then it will be glued to the rim before anymore sanding on the outside.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

Mandobart, 

Tommcgtx

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## Bluetickhound

Man, these pictures are really inspirational! It's really nice to see just what is possible with some skill and a good measure of patience. You see these finely finished instruments and think "theres no WAY I could ever do that!!" but then you follow a thread like this, see how the process happens from start to finish and it really gives you hope that maybe, (with some bumps along the way) I just might be able to do this!  At least it does for me.

----------

GeoMandoAlex, 

Tommcgtx

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## TJ.

Hey... Mandobart told me about this thread after I just started building a 10-string Mandocello. I've been following this discussion... pretty interesting. Always nice to see other builders techniques. If anyone is interested in checking out the progress on mine... it's here on my Facebook page: 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Crick...41224535892030

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## Pete Jenner

Hey TJ, that's a whopping huge drill bit you are drilling your depth holes with. I like it.

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## Vernon Hughes

Not to hijack a thread but you burnish a scraper,not sharpen it..4 years apprenticeship under an honest to goodness old world cabinetmaker taught me so.

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## Bill Snyder

Vernon you burnish them after you have sharpened them.

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## Vernon Hughes

I was taught to hand file the edges flat,then burnish with the burnishing tool to give it the correct "hook". Whatever works!

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## sunburst

> I was taught to hand file the edges flat,then burnish with the burnishing tool to give it the correct "hook". Whatever works!


That's what I do with card scrapers, but I call it sharpening _and_ burnishing

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## tree

This set of instructions is one way to do it. No financial interest, but I do think highly of these guys.

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## Bernie Daniel

To keep from getting too deep into the scarper topic on this thread and interrupting the build story, I started a separate thread on *burnishing scrapers*.  I think information on how to use scarpers might be fitting for the new string as well?

It is certainly a topic that would like to know more about!

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## sunburst

> To keep from getting too deep into the scarper topic on this thread and interrupting the build story...


Ha! scraper maintenance is the least of the interruptions of the mandocello build! Maybe I can get back to doing a little work on it in a week or so.

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## sunburst

I've been wanting to borrow this tool from my friend, and I finally got it in my hands. It's a small side grinder loaded with a couple of "King Arthur's Tools", a Lancelot and Squire. They are little discs with short lengths of chainsaw chain on the edges, and they remove wood with little effort in a hurry, so they must be used carefully!

I practiced for a while on a scrap of 2/4, and I felt like I was in control of the tool enough to start on the mandocello plates, so... here goes!
I clamped (with wood scraps and screws) the back plate in the carving cradle and into a Workmate, outside in the shade where I could let the chips fly freely.

----------


## sunburst

Here, I've cut away some of the waste wood, using the depth guide holes to let me know when to stop.

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## sunburst

Here's what it looks like after finishing the work with this tool.

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## sunburst

I rough carved the inside of the top and back to near the depth of the holes. This is a close to the depth guide holes as I was comfortable with going. This is enough of the job of wasting excess wood to save quite a bit of time, effort and joint pain. I'll move on to hand carving from here.

----------

sgrexa

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## Pete Jenner

I've been doing that for the last two days.
One down seven to go for me.

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## sunburst

This took me twice as long to set up as it did to do the actual carving! I don't think it was two hours (including a short lunch break) from the time I started setting up to carve until I posted the pictures!

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## Pete Jenner

Cool. Are you going to carve any material from that area outside the holes below the recurve?
I used a Safe-T-Planer in a drill press for the bulk removal. That was pretty quick too.

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## Bluetickhound

That's gutsy, John... I have seen those things and they look like trouble!

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## sunburst

> Cool. Are you going to carve any material from that area outside the holes below the recurve?
> I used a Safe-T-Planer in a drill press for the bulk removal. That was pretty quick too.


I'll be doing that with hand tools.

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## Pete Jenner

Yes I had assumed that. Mad not to.

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## Mandoborg

I love my Lancelot wheel !! I built a dupli-carver a few years ago that now has turned into a table to put junk on !! It took longer to get that thing set-up right than to clamp the plates to a saw-horse outside and grind away at it with the wheel !!! KJeeps the mess outside as well ! One thing i'm sure you know, NEVER try to push the tool away from you as it digs in real nice and will ruin your piece just like that. I've found if you keep pulling the grinder towards you, and 'pet the Doberman ' you can feather that plate to almost finished dimensions.
  This has been an interesting thread. Thanks again for posting this stuff.....

Jim

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## tom.gibson

I've just been testing out an Arbortech Turboplane prior to attacking some big octave mando plates with it. Seems like a really good tool. You can take quite fine cuts with good control.

----------

tdnate

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## sunburst

> One thing i'm sure you know, NEVER try to push the tool away from you as it digs in real nice and will ruin your piece just like that.


I tried that on my 2/4 scrap. I tried to make every non-dangerous mistake I could think of on my scrap wood so that I might (hopefully) know what to avoid when working on the instrument parts! I probably could have cut closer to the bottoms of my depth guide holes, but I didn't want to take any undue chances with a tool capable of this much wood removal when I'm not fully familiar with using it.

Also, Doug (my friend who loaned me the tool) suggested a face shield. That was good advice, but the only face shield I have handy is the one in my fresh air supply respirator. I decided that was no problem, so while I was out in the 80+ degree weather carving away, my air supply pump was in the cool, air conditioned shop supplying me with 68 degree air to breath inside my respirator hood with it's face shield protecting my eyes from flying wood chips!

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## Pete Jenner

John, what is your initial thickness in the centres?

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## sunburst

I set the depth stop to drill the depth holes for a 7mm thickness. The thickness of the plates, after rough carving to near the bottoms of those holes, is from a little over 7mm to a little under 9mm. I'll decide the eventual center thickness as I carve and graduate, depending on the perceived weight and stiffness.

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## Pete Jenner

Ok thanks. Did you drill all the holes at 7mm or just the centre ones?
Can't wait to see what the final thicknesses end up being.

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## sunburst

All the holes were drilled to leave 7mm of thickness. Just a guide for wasting the excess wood from the insides of the plates. The top and back total thickness started out about 18mm, so about 10mm of wood was removed from the centers with the Lancelot tool. That would be quite a bit of work with a mallet and gouge. I'm hoping to start some hand carving on the plates later today.

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## Pete Jenner

Yeah well I did that too. Drilled all the holes to the same depth. Now I'm sorry I did because graduating from there is so bloody hard...  on the next 7 plates I'm going to drill the contours to different depths just to get a better guide.

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## sunburst

I don't find graduating from an even thickness to be difficult, and in fact I prefer to do it this way. I'll reduce the thickness evenly until it starts to flex to suit me, then tie the thin area around the outside into the center thickness and that will be close to done. Perhaps a little more "tweeking from there.

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## Pete Jenner

Well I think that's the difference between an experienced pro like you and a newb like me.

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## sunburst

I rough carved to the bottoms of the guide holes, top and back. I suppose it should have been no surprise that the inside of the back is the same tough maple as the outside of the back, but after the easy time the Lancelot had with it, I almost forgot! Once again, the little squirrel tail plane worked well, and together with a finger plane I rough carved to about 7mm thickness.

Here's the top rough carved to a little under 7mm thick.

----------


## sunburst

The top feels like a little progress has been made, but still heavy and stiff feeling. The back, on the other hand, feels like no progress other than wasting some excess wood has happened. Still feels like a board. I'm thinking of setting up the drill press and drilling another set of depth gauge holes in the back plate at maybe 5mm, and wasting a little more wood before starting to carve and graduate the plate.

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## Pete Jenner

I've got a question along those lines but rather than hijack this venerable thread any further, I'll start a new one.

----------


## sunburst

To follow through with my threat, I drilled another set of depth guide holes and carved to the bottoms of them. The back plate is now evenly thicknesses to about 5mm. It still feels heavy and stiff, but it's starting to show potential for being a part of a musical instrument. It no longer feels like the top of a Les Paul. (OK, so people can make music with a Les Paul, but not without plugging it in!)


From here, I'll refine the area of minimum thickness (the re-curve area) working on the insides of the top and back plates, then start graduating them and reducing the thickness as I see fit.

----------


## sunburst

The back is now 5mm thick in the center, 3mm thick around the minimum area, and ready to be set aside until later.

----------


## Pete Jenner

How does it feel? Any flex front to back?
What sort of maple is it?

----------


## sunburst

How does it feel? It's starting to move a little, a little flex, mostly across grain. It's loosing the high pitched "clink" when tapped, not so heavy now. Still some carving and graduating to go. It's sugar maple: stiff, heavy and hard. I'm not sure what the final thickness will be, It sort of depends on how it feels as it gets thinner.

----------

Pete Jenner

----------


## David Houchens

Looking very nice John.

----------


## Bluetickhound

I have the same deal with my back plate... I have it down to the recommended 4.5mm center and 2.8 in the minimum and its still just as stiff as can be. Being a first effort, I'm skittish about going any thinner...

----------


## sunburst

A small amount of progress. Along with the other instruments I'm building now, this thing will need a neck, so...
Here are three squared neck blanks; one mandolin, one mandola and one mandocello, the subject of this thread. I'm saving set-up time by running them through the early stages together. This is the shape of the neck blanks right after I've worked them out of lumber. They were bandsawn out and squared using the jointer and table saw. I've glued some little pieces of wood at the nut position and run them over my slotting cutter in the table saw to cut the truss rod slots more-or-less parallel to the back of the neck rather than parallel to the fingerboards. That way, the rods can be set deeper without danger of being too close to the back of the neck.


Here, I've cut the pocket for the truss rod nut and prepared a filler stick to cover the rod when it's set in place. I use red spruce for filler sticks. It has a very high stiffness to weight ratio so it saves a little weight in the neck, and it is near the neutral axis of the neck so the difference in stiffness between spruce and the maple that was removed is not too significant.


I glued the stick I with plenty of hide glue on both sides, but none on the bottom so that the rod is not glued in and is free to move and do it's job.

----------


## sunburst

By the way, here's the slotting cutter that I use for truss rod slots. It cuts a round-bottomed slot.

----------


## sunburst

Since the neck blank is square, I can use the table saw to cut off the excess filler stick. I leave just a little so that I don't cut away any of the fingerboard surface of the neck blank.


To remove the rest, I tape a block plane to that I don't dig the corners of the blade into the fingerboard surface, and just plane away the excess cover stick. That step leaves the thickness of the tape still sticking up and a scraper levels that to the fingerboard surface.


The little corner of the cover stick in the peghead area gets cut off with a chisel...

and that leaves the truss rod pocket looking like this.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

Duct Tape, 

Tommcgtx

----------


## sunburst

I figured and marked the correct (I hope!) length, tilted the blade to 6 degrees and cut the heel off using a miter gauge in the table saw.


The blanks are ready to start cutting out the neck shape. I marked the mandolin neck with a template, I marked the mandola neck with a template but had to do it creatively because this one is a shorter scale length than I made the template for, but I don't have a mandocello neck template, so I just drew it and allowed plenty of wood to remove later just to be safe.

----------


## sunburst

I'm not sure exactly what the peghead will look like on this 'cello, but It will probably be a slightly bigger version of an F-5 peghead. It will need peghead "ears" to be wide enough.


Here's where I got the ears. After cutting out the neck shape, I used the scrap that I just sawed off so that it nearly matches in grain direction and figure. That makes the ears less obvious when viewing the finished peghead. I laid the freshly cut peghead on the scrap, marked the ears, then cut them out of the scrap.

----------


## sunburst

Before I have time to handle the freshly cut piece and loose the orientation, I mark the piece L and R (left and right) with the marking on the upward facing surface. That saves time later when I would otherwise be turning the piece over and around trying to remember or figure how it was sawed out. I even put a set of ears on a neck with the grain the wrong way once(!), so now I always mark them as soon as they are cut. I then marked center and cut the piece in two.

----------


## sunburst

Here's a step, the purpose of which will be revealed later.
The center line of the neck is already established and penciled on the neck blank, so now I can remove wood from the sides of the blank without worrying about maintaining center. I ran the neck blank over the jointer to remove some wood from each side, right up to the peghead and stopped there. (jointer guard removed for pictures)

----------


## sunburst

The ears are too small to surface on the jointer safely, so I have to resort to surfacing the faces of them on the dusty ol' belt sander.


For the edges of the ears, the part that glues to the peghead, I set up my #7 plane just like I do for jointing top and back center seams, and ran the pieces over the plane.


Here's the reason I removed wood from the sides of the neck blank on the jointer. I can now run the sides of the peghead over the plane so that I have a good (and hopefully nearly invisible) glue joint holding the ears. You can see that there is clearance between the neck part of the blank and the sole of the plane allowing me to run just the sides of the peghead over the plane.

----------

Pete Jenner, 

Tommcgtx

----------


## sunburst

With good, light-tight joints established, I slathered the ears with hide glue and clamped them in place.

----------


## tom.gibson

Thanks John. I'm just starting an octave neck so this is nice timing for me. 

That neck blank must have been quite a chunk of maple. Did you even consider doing it with a scarf joint and added heel, or is that too untraditional?

----------


## Timbofood

John, I am not a builder but, thanks for sharing all this information! This is a lot of fun to watch!

----------


## sunburst

The glue is dry. I glued the ears a little proud of the surface of the neck blank, so I'm leveling the face of the peghead. A few minutes with a block plane, checking across and diagonally with a straight edge to maintain flatness...


followed by a little block sanding, and the surface is flat and sanded to 80 grit. That's all for now.

----------

Tommcgtx

----------


## Bill Snyder

Any more progress?

----------


## sunburst

> Any more progress?


Not lately, :Frown:  .
Too much going on, and the future owner is in no hurry.

----------


## Pete Jenner

What nut width are you going with John? I had the chance to examine a K2 on the weekend but forgot to bring my calipers with me.  :Smile:

----------


## sunburst

Mike Marshal's Monteleone, the inspiration for this order and the model this one is loosely based upon, has a 1 3/8" nut width, so depending upon the owners preferences, it will probably be close to that.

----------

Pete Jenner

----------


## Pete Jenner

One day I'll learn you about millimetres - if it's the last thing I do.  :Smile: 

No you so much because I know you do metric.

----------


## sunburst

Here's my source for that info. I don't remember where I got this "rubbing" of the nut and saddle of Marshall's 'cello...


You can figure it out in millimeters y'rself!

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Newmexmandoboy

I don't see your attachment, but I'm wondering if you are using the "rubbing" Mike gave to me?
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...nut-and-bridge

----------


## dcoventry

1 inch = 2.54 cm = 25.4 mm
1 3/8 = 36.3 mm

----------


## Bill Snyder

Must be a rounding error somewhere because I come up with 34.925 millimeters.

----------


## sunburst

> I don't see your attachment, but I'm wondering if you are using the "rubbing" Mike gave to me?


I changed it to JPEG, it should shoe up now.
Yep, looks like I stole it from you! Thanks!

----------


## Jim Garber

Google will calculate for you as well. Just put "1 3/8" in mm". Google converts to decimal (1.375") and gives you 34.925mm.

----------


## Pete Jenner

Yeah I know how to do it. I'm just on a crusade.  :Wink:

----------


## Pete Jenner

> Here's my source for that info. I don't remember where I got this "rubbing" of the nut and saddle of Marshall's 'cello...
> 
> 
> You can figure it out in millimeters y'rself!



I like that.

----------


## Mark Seale

John - 

Would you mind posting a couple of pictures of your carving cradle?  Is the top piece of plywood about the same thickness as the edge of the  top/back plate?

----------


## sunburst

I have carving cradles for mandolin, mandola, and now mandocello. All are made the same way, from scrap plywood. All are 1/2" or 5/8" plywood with 1/4" plywood (That's 12mm, 16mm and 6mm for anyone interested...) overlaid for holding the plates. I just used flathead screws to attach the 1/4" ply', and countersunk them deep enough to hopefully avoid hitting them with an errant chisel.
1/4" plywood is actually thinner than 1/4" most of the time, and I leave the edges of my plates a little thick until later in the building process, so it works out fine.
I'll try to get a picture or two in the next couple of days.

----------

Mark Seale

----------


## Timbofood

Oh, Peter!

----------

Pete Jenner

----------


## sunburst

> John - 
> 
> Would you mind posting a couple of pictures of your carving cradle?  Is the top piece of plywood about the same thickness as the edge of the  top/back plate?


Here it is. It's just made from scrap plywood. The main part of 5/8" sheeting grade plywood. 1/2" sheeting grade ply' is often 4 plies these days, and that is not balanced construction, so it warps. This is 5 plies, balanced construction so it stays flatter. The 1/4" scraps that surround the plate in the cradle are attached with screws only. If they were glued, that would cause an imbalance and the cradle would probably warp. Also, if I cut into it and ruin a piece, I can replace it by simply screwing on another piece.

----------


## sunburst

I excavated these places to make room for the thicker area of the scroll when carving the inside of the plates. I used a Forstner bit in the drill press with the depth stop set. If it isn't obvious, this cradle will hold the top or the back, face up or face down.

----------


## sunburst

Here's the thickness of the thin plywood that surrounds and holds the plate for carving. Hopefully this will please everyone...

----------

Duct Tape

----------


## Pete Jenner

Very good.

----------


## sunburst

There are holes in various positions around the cradle for large nails to rest against the edge of a workbench to hold the work in place for carving. I can put two nails through any two holes that will give me a good angle for carving whatever part of the plate I'm working on.

----------


## Mark Seale

Thank you!

----------


## John Kelly

Very helpful, John.  Thanks for your trouble.

----------


## sunburst

I found some time to sharpen a couple of finger planes and do some top carving on a couple of other projects, so I figured I might as well do a little more work on the top of the 'cello while I was set up to carve.
I believer I left off here, rough carved to the bottoms of my depth gauge holes at about 7mm thickness.



I reduced the thickness to about 5.5mm, even thickness across the center of the plate, using a finger plane followed by a scraper. That's the thickness I expect to use for the center of the top (I might thin it more depending on how heavy and stiff it feels after it's graduated).



I used a finger plane to reduce the thickness near the edge to about 3mm.



I scraped away the tool marks...



Then "connected the dots", carving to an even graduation from the thinner edge area to the thicker center area, then scraped away the tool marks.



That's all I'll have time for for a while.

----------

Tommcgtx, 

tree

----------


## Timbofood

How kind of you to share so much of your acquired knowledge John!  I don't build but, I do appreciate the myriad little tweaks and errors that make some of you that do are generous enough to share! It makes me look at every mandolin with more and more respect for the time builders have invested in understanding their craft. Strong work all!

----------


## MinkBrookRambler

In post 184 it looks like you're carving the inside of the plate after the outside's been carved.  As you carve the inside, do you have anything supporting the outside of the plate (i.e. between your workbench and the plate), or is the plate strong enough by itself to hold up to the stresses of having the inside carved out?  

Thanks for your generosity posting all this.

----------


## sunburst

The carving cradle is shown in post #177 (and others), so you can see that the plate is supported all the way around the edge. The rest of the plate (the center part) is not directly supported during carving, but it is plenty strong for carving in this manner. Any stresses applied by carving are slight, and significantly less than the strings will apply later, if I ever get the chance to finish this thing!

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

Duct Tape, 

MinkBrookRambler

----------


## Duct Tape

Digging this up from the deep archives to say how great this thread was for sharing and information. One of my favorite reads so far on MC. 

Did you ever finish it, or maybe starting posting somewhere in another thread?

Thx

Jon

----------


## sunburst

Not finished yet. The future owner had some serious health problems, and the associated serious financial problems, so we sort of put the 'cello project on the back burner. I have done some more work on the 'cello and I have more pictures that I haven't processed for the internet yet. I'll try to post an update soon.

----------

Bluetickhound, 

Duct Tape

----------


## sunburst

Here we go with some more.
I sanded the back to about 80 grit and once again set it aside for later when other things are ready for it.

----------

Inklings

----------


## sunburst

Moving ahead with the top, I sanded it also, especially inside where I sanded it all the way to 220 grit to make ready for fitting the bracing. The braces in the picture are simply lengths of spruce cut from a scrap.

First step is to mark for the initial cut for fitting the braces to the top. This pencil stub taped to a small wood scrap is the precision tool that I use to mark the cut line. Just drag the tool along the top and it marks the curve of the top onto the brace.

----------

Duct Tape, 

Pete Jenner

----------


## sunburst

First, use the mark to guide the bandsaw for the initial cut.

Then on to the spindle sander.

----------


## sunburst

With most of the waste removed, the rest is chalk fitting the braces to the top.
I start with a finger plane...

then scrapers as the fit improves...

then finally some sanding. I use emery boards because they are sort of like little sanding blocks and they help me keep from rolling the edges and rounding the surface of the bottom of the braces.

----------


## sunburst

With both arms of the X-brace fit to the top, here is the box joint where the two arms cross...

and here is the X-brace laid in place on the top where it will be glued.

----------


## sunburst

I used my go-bar deck to clamp the braces in place for gluing.

----------


## sunburst

I like to cap the joint of an X-brace to help with the strength at the joint. In Martin guitars you'll see a linen patch for this purpose, but I like to use a little piece of spruce. In order to glue the cap the brace surface must first be lowered to it's final center height and planed flat and straight for a good glue surface.

Here's the little spruce cap sitting in position and showing a good fit.

----------

Duct Tape

----------


## sunburst

Glued and clamped, then cut down to a thin strip.

----------

Duct Tape

----------


## sunburst

I started carving the braces by tapering the ends...

then carving with finger planes...

and some chisel work.

----------


## sunburst

The completed bracing looks like this.

----------

Duct Tape

----------


## sunburst

Looks like I neglected to get any shots of the process of gluing the top linings into the rim, but that is done, and here is the process of gluing the top to the rim. I used an assortment of padded clamping cauls, some that I made for an octave mandolin and others that I made for random purposes. I didn't have to make custom cauls for this instrument. Custom cauls would have looked better in the photos, but this assortment worked just fine for a good glue joint.
Hopefully I'll get some shots of gluing the back linings to the rim when that happens. It is the same process as the top linings.
I glued the top to the rim with the rim in the form in order to maintain the proper rim shape. 


Here's what it looks like now.

----------

bernabe, 

Pete Brown, 

Verne Andru

----------


## Duct Tape

Wow, you're back in a big way. Thanks!

----------


## Clinton Johnson

Well!!! I've just spent most of the morning carefully reading and examining every post of this thread.  I don't know how I've managed to miss  it but thank you Duct for giving the bump.  And thank you JOHN HAMLETT for being so forthcoming with your knowledge and expertise on the building process!  I'll certainly be implementing some of these techniques on my next project for sure.
   Ive just recently used John Hamlets photo essay on dovetailed points which gave me the courage to even attempt it. Not a great first time attempt but at least it's a start.  All info that he imparts is invaluable to us newbie folk. Thanks again!

----------


## GeoMandoAlex

Just finished reading the whole thread.  Thank you join for letting us see your build.

----------


## sunburst

I didn't really start this thread at the beginning of the process, so now I find myself having to return to unfinished business.
This is my original full scale drawing of the instrument. It was wintertime when I started the drawing and the only paper large enough that I had easy access to was some wrapping paper. This is the back side or a piece of wrapping paper. It got water-damaged some time during the process of moving my shop 400 miles, so it looks a little rough.
Anyway, I hadn't really finished the drawing when I started construction because all I had for the peghead was a very rough sketch. I knew I was using a shape based on the usual F5 peghead, but I didn't finish adapting it for the width of the neck.
As I usually do with a design, I have this hanging in a prominent place (next to the finish room door in my shop) so that I see it every day. When I look at something day after day I eventually see things that I think need to be adjusted. I am now in that process with the peghead.

My first draft of the peghead is drawn on a piece of tracing paper and attached to the main drawing with bits of masking tape.

----------


## sunburst

I've already seen some lines that need to be adjusted, so today I removed the peghead drawing from the main drawing and dug out this old light box that I got from a luthier who was selling out and moving on.

Tracing paper makes this process easier.

First, I find sections of French curves that match up to the old sketch and mark (with masking tape) the section I want to use to modify the lines. This helps me maintain symmetry, along with measuring and maintaining equal distance from my center line.

----------


## sunburst

Here is part of the mess I made tracing over the sketch and moving some lines.

I laid a new piece of tracing paper over the old sketch, matched up the center lines and cross lines and modified the drawing. I can do this as many times as it takes to get my eye satisfied with the drawing.
It's back on the wall, and after a day or so of looking at it I'll decide how much more work it needs.


One thing I have learned about myself is; I will never be satisfied with the drawing, so eventually I'll say "good enough!" and proceed even though I still feel the need to get the drawing right. I can't spend too much time on this... but I will.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

Pete Jenner, 

tree, 

Verne Andru

----------


## Timbofood

It's much like boat building as far as making sure the lines are "Fair". When they are right, it looks right, when the line is just a little bit "out" it throws the whole image/project into trouble. The early stages are always the important ones, making sure the entire thing needs to be in balance visually. It's easier to change the drawing than find the problem when in construction!

----------


## sunburst

> ...It's easier to change the drawing than find the problem when in construction!


Yep. As I said, though, my eye is never really satisfied. I still change my "F5" a little bit from time to time trying to get it just right. I will probably only build a few thousand of these mandocellos... well, more likely only one, so it will be what it will be.
I think about production situations when things like this come around. How much time does a designer have to spend on a project before it is put into production and becomes "chiseled in stone"? What is it like to be a designer and see your work in production with a line or two that still needs some work... but it's too late? What is it like to see your design changed for easier production and "it throws the whole image/project into trouble"? How did Orville feel about the instruments of the early Gibson Company?
This is one of the reasons I seldom build parts in batches. What if I decide I need to change something and there are already a dozen of them cut out? I suppose it is one of the reasons I have a one-man shop. Nobody else to blame.
Anyway, the need to proceed with the neck brought about this "back to the drawing board" episode. I need to glue the overlay to the neck blank as the next step in the process, so I'm finally forced to finish the peghead shape so I can get back to work on the cello.

OK, design and building philosophy tangent over. I'll get back to some more interesting pictures soon.

----------


## Bluetickhound

> Yep. As I said, though, my eye is never really satisfied.


Boy howdy, truer words have rarely been spoken. I'll futz around with a drawing for hours trying to tweak it to perfection and after all that time, as often as not, I'll decide the original is the one I like best. Like you, at some point I have to say "good enough" and step away, but for me that's a really hard thing to do. You'd think that after enough incidences of not leaving well enough alone I'd learn but....

----------


## sunburst

It's perfectionism. 
Many people think a perfectionist is someone who does excellent work, approaching perfection. That's not what a perfectionist is, a perfectionist is someone who is not satisfied until things are perfect, and since things are _never_ perfect, a perfectionist is never satisfied. It can be frustrating to the individual and the people around the individual. As I cut my food into neat, uniformly shaped bites, not even realizing I'm doing it, several times I've been asked by an exasperated onlooker; "Why do you do that!!!?".
It's a curse that we must recognize in ourselves and try to moderate so that we don't waste so much time that we never get anything finished.
Anyway, the drawing looks OK to me today, I've marked 5 places where it needs to be refined, and after doing that I'll see what changes those changes warrant, and on it goes until I pronounce it done.

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Karl Hoyt

When I have a new idea I'm percolating, I'll tape the  drawing onto the wall beside the TV... so while I'm zoning out watching the boob tube, I study the drawing... then every so often, I'll jump up and pfutz with a portion of the drawing. I'm lucky in that my wife is an artist too..... so I'll jump up and adjust the sketch. Usually my wife will say "I'm glad you changed that! That line was bugging me all night!" It's  a great partnership. It's so hard to quantify just what 'it' is :  getting a particular line or concept right just by eye...but you know it when you see it.  Thanks for a really great thread!  One of my customers is starting to make noises about wanting a Mandocello... he's waiting to see how my first batch of 3 F-5 mandos comes out.  So far so good, due in part to the Mando Cafe!

----------


## sunburst

> ...I'll tape the  drawing onto the wall beside the TV...


I used to tape my drawings right next to the refrigerator in the kitchen (now it's near the frig in the shop). Funny how things can look so different the next day, or even later, when that drawing is right there were you see it without actively looking at it.
I'm on tracing number 6 on the 'cello peghead, still trying to place the large scroll just right.

----------

Karl Hoyt

----------


## sunburst

Tracing #7, and I finally said "good enough". The size of the instrument and the width of the neck meant this had to be bigger than my F5 style peghead. That may seem obvious, but what is not obvious is that it doesn't take much of a size increase to make a "scrolly" peghead wider than many commercially available ebony overlays. 

I had some wider sheets of ebony, but I've used up all but one piece big enough to make two A-style overlays... I decided not to sacrifice both of those overlays for one 'cello overlay, and that left me with only one option, short of ordering a wider overlay from somewhere. I had this piece of ebony, rough sawn, warped, and over 1/4" thick, but wide enough. Not sure where I got it, I've had it in my wood stash just waiting for it to come in handy.

----------

GeoMandoAlex

----------


## sunburst

I couldn't think of a better way to flatten the warped piece than turning a bunch of it into dust, so I flattened one side on the belt sander.

----------

GeoMandoAlex

----------


## sunburst

That left me with one flat side and still a lot of extra thickness. Rather than turn all of the extra thickness to dust, I decided to 're-saw' off most of the extra wood. I had a 1/4" blade in the bandsaw and I wasn't planning any more re-sawing any time soon so I didn't want to take the time to set the saw up with a wide blade.... I gave the bandsaw a try with the 1/4" blade. It wasn't working, the blade condition was not good enough, the saw set up was not good enough, and the thickness of the wood was so uneven that the blade was sawing out to the side of the piece.
The time I would have spent setting up the saw to re-saw, I instead spent ripping the wood by hand.

That's as far as I got with the bandsaw...

That's a lot of dust, but nothing compared to the dust I would have made sanding away all of the excess thickness, and besides, the scrap went back into the ebony scrap box. Might come in handy someday...

----------


## sunburst

After a few trips through the thickness sander, I had an ebony overlay wide enough for my project. I transferred my drawing (7th tracing) to the ebony...

...and began the process of cutting it out by first marking the center of the circle inside of the small scroll.

I drilled a small center hole...

...to guide a brad point drill bit in the drill press to cut the round hole.

----------


## sunburst

With that hole and the transferred drawing as references, I went to the bandsaw to cut out the overlay. I set the bandsaw up with a 1/8" blade. A fresh set-up and a 1/8" blade gives me considerable control and detail for cutting things like this.

----------


## sunburst

While the bandsaw is freshly set up with a 1/8" blade, it's time to retrieve the body of the instrument and do a little work on it.
With a paper template of my drawing, I transferred the drawing to the scroll.

----------


## sunburst

Here's the first cut, closely (but not _too_ closely) following the line.

...and continuing... 

This blade is getting a little dull and these scorch marks are a result. It still cuts pretty accurately though, and a little scorching is almost unavoidable in a cut like this anyway.

----------

GeoMandoAlex, 

Pete Jenner

----------


## sunburst

Now back to the peghead overlay and the neck.
The neck blank was left in a rough, overly thick condition. To prepare for the overlays (front and back), I used the Saf-T-Planer to remove excess thickness from the peghead and neck shaft. Since the tuners are the same for a mandolin of a mandocello, the thickness of the peghead is the same as well. I lightly superglued these little blocks to the front surface of the peghead to establish the taper of the peghead (same taper as a mandolin peghead)...

...then milled away the excess thickness.

----------


## sunburst

Similar process for the neck shaft taper...

----------


## sunburst

...and that leaves the transition from one plane to the other where a curve must be established. The spindle sander does that very well.

(The wood scrap superglued to the neck blank serves to keep the back surface of the blank parallel to the spindle.)

----------


## sunburst

At this time, I have realized that, in order to get the back veneer overlay (back strap) to come out right, I need to know the final thickness of the neck shaft... and I don't know that!
I grabbed a reject neck blank and roughed out the neck shape just to get a feel for what my thickness might be. I will meet with the future owner this weekend and between the two of us, we will decide on the neck shape and size. I'll most likely have to mill the back of the neck blank again after that decision is made.

----------


## GeoMandoAlex

John, thank you for the updates.  I am really enjoying these build threads.

----------


## tree

Even if I don't build instruments, there is SO much good information here - and not all of it specifically presented as germane to the mandocello build, but you can clearly observe it - about design, problem-solving, technique, set-up . . . I love this thread!!

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Timbofood

I'm with you Tree, I don't build but, the thought process of all these minute steps which render the amazing end product is fascinating!!

----------


## Verne Andru

It's like sculpting with wood - love it and thanks for sharing!

----------


## Pete Jenner

Dude!

----------


## sunburst

A little work on the peghead overlay.
After the spindle sander...

...and after some hand work in the areas inaccessible to the spindle sander. (Once again, work and time not required for an A, at least my A peghead shape.)

----------


## Duct Tape

> John, thank you for the updates.  I am really enjoying these build threads.


Me too. Thanks!

----------


## sunburst

Working on the fingerboard.
To determine the width and taper, I used the planned string spacing at the nut and bridge (taken from Mike Marshall's 'cello) and drew the outer string paths full size. I'm planning a 3/32" space from the first string to the edge of the 'board and the nut and a 1/8" space at the 8th string. I want those spaces to get a little wider toward the bridge, and with that info, determining the width and taper of the 'board is as simple as drawing and measuring.

----------


## sunburst

This is where things got a little strange.
I usually make my own fingerboards, but since this was a scale length I have not used before I ordered a slotted and radiused fingerboard from a supplier. I noticed that one edge was cut straight and the other side was just a rough cut from a bandsaw. In order to find center, I needed two straight, parallel cuts, so I simply ripped of the rough edge with the table saw. After doing that, I noticed that the side I had just ripped was not the same thickness as the other side, and that meant that the arch was not centered on the 'board! 


That was a little disappointing, but It only meant that I needed to rip a little off of the thin side to center the arch. Fortunately, I could do that and still have just enough width for the fingerboard! If it had not been wide enough with the arch centered that would have been _really_ disappointing, but it will work fine, so I guess I dodged a bullet, as they say.

----------


## sunburst

The off-center arch got me curious, so I checked to be sure that the fret slots were square to the edges and I was relieved to find that they were.

I made a test cut to be sure that my table saw miter gauge was square, found that it was, and cut off the excess wood from the end of the 'board.

In the pictures you can see my scribe lines indicating the eventual shape of the 'board.

----------


## sunburst

By measurement, I found that the total taper of the fingerboard is 5/8". I have only these two taper jigs, one for a 9/16'" taper and one for 7/16".

I needed one for a 5/8" taper, so I ripped a 5/8" strip from the edge of a piece of plywood...

...cut three sections from it and then ripped one to 5/16".

Those parts were then glued together into another taper jig that yields a 5/8" taper.

----------


## sunburst

I don't know if any of y'all use these taper jigs, but if you are not familiar with them, don't think I invented them. I got the idea from Sylvan Wells, and in fact, the first one I got is one he gave me.

----------


## sunburst

Since the radius has already been cut (and now centered!) in the 'board, I had to keep the flat side down on the table saw, so I had to use the jig first one way then the other.
Here's the set up for the first cut...

...and the 'board after the first cut.

Here's the set up for the second cut and the 'board after both taper cuts.

----------


## sunburst

I'm using my usual S-curve at the end of the fingerboard. I normally eye-ball that curve anyway, so I didn't have to spend much time on it. It looks good to me held against my full scale drawing, so that will do.

A little touch up of the curve on the spindle sander and the 'board is fully cut.

----------


## Timbofood

I'm going to need a second head to store all this information! Even though I have my doubts about EVER needing it for an instrument build. The information is simply fascinating!

----------


## sunburst

I re-checked and adjusted my center line (we can't expect jigs, even accurate jigs) to give us perfect results every time) and marked my inlay positions after double checking to be sure they are at the correct frets. Marking the wrong fret is an easy error to make, and one I've seen made many times. Hopefully I got these right.

For mandolins I normally use 4mm pearl dots for fingerboard inlays because my sense of proportion tells me that looks best. Since this instrument is significantly bigger than a mandolin I decided to see what different size MOP dots looked like in place. I keep an assortment of MOP dot sizes for various uses so I did a little experimenting.

I tried 4mm dots...

...and 5mm dots...

...and concluded that 5mm dots satisfy my sense of proportion for this fingerboard, so I went with those.
(FWIW, the huge 1/4" dots in an F5 fingerboard have always looked cartoonishly large to my eye. Apparently they just used what they had rather than choosing something appropriately sized.)
I center-punched the inlay positions to prepare for drilling the holes.

----------


## sunburst

I don't have a set of metric drill bits, but luckily I measured and found a brad point bit that is almost exactly the same size as a 5mm pearl dot, so I used it to drill the holes. I drilled using the drill press with the depth stop set so that the pearl dots lie in the holes just slightly proud of the fingerboard surface.
How am I able to have both hands on the fingerboard while drilling, you might ask? This drill press has a foot pedal, one of the main reasons I bought it!

----------


## sunburst

Here are the dots fitting very nicely in their holes...

...and all I needed to do was flood them with superglue (and be sure they stay fully down in the holes).

----------


## sunburst

After letting the CA cure, I moved on to binding. 
I grabbed a scrap board and made this thing. It is about .120" wider and .060" longer than the fingerboard. (Perhaps you can guess how I cut the taper. Hint: I just made a brand new 5/8" taper jig for the table saw.)
Some blue painter's tape on the edges will keep me from securely gluing the fingerboard to the jig.

I clamped the fingerboard in position on the jig, with the jig extending .060" all the way around and started the binding process by bending the piece for the end of the 'board.

I used my usual Duco/acetone mixture and Stewmac binding tape.

----------


## sunburst

After letting the cement cure, I cut the corners for miters. If you look closely you can see the reflection of the binding in the back of the chisel. That is a way to tell when the angle is correct for the cut for the miter.

After making that cut the piece for the side of the fingerboard can be easily fit to the curved piece of binding.
As you can see, I was off just a little on the angle, but it will not matter. The corner will look fine when it's done (unless I mess it up some other way...).

----------


## sunburst

Miter both side pieces and glue them in place, set the 'board aside for the cement to cure, and that's it for the fingerboard for a while.

----------

Verne Andru

----------


## sunburst

Interesting color scheme; orange and blue. (I don't get to decide what color they make the tape.)

----------


## tree

Interesting scrap, too - beech?  Bench top also?

----------


## sunburst

Yep, beech. It is left over from when I remodeled the work bench, so once again you're right, it is wood from the bench. It takes a real wood nerd to notice that!

----------


## amowry

Great, thread, John! It's always interesting seeing the different approaches builders have to all these things.

By the way (going back a few pages) I like how you capped the X brace and tapered the brace ends to nothing. I think those are two structural considerations that get left out a lot.

----------


## Mandoborg

This has been great to follow ! I always learn something with your posts John. I feel somewhat inadequate however in that I scribe my fingerboard taper lines on the blank, cut close on the bandsaw, then make two passes on the jointer to clean it up. I'm not so good with figuring angles and math !!   :O)

----------


## sunburst

> ...I scribe my fingerboard taper lines on the blank, cut close on the bandsaw, then make two passes on the jointer to clean it up. I'm not so good with figuring angles and math !!   :O)


I've done it that way for years; scribe, bandsaw, jointer, hand plane, but the fact is, I sold my jointer when I moved from Va. to Ky., bought another jointer here and haven't set it up yet, so I don't have a jointer to use in the shop. I did do a tiny bit of clean-up with a plane after the table saw cuts. I'm not good with math either. I have to double check, triple check, and continuously review math and measurements to try to minimize errors. I compared the actual 'board to my full scale drawing, and only then did I trust the math.

----------


## Bluetickhound

Very clever tip about the reflection of the binding helping to gauge the miter angle. This whole thread has been one of my favorites since joining. Always nice to see the masters at work!!

----------


## sunburst

More neck work.
I made a "dummy" neck, not the whole thing, just the shape near the nut. I had a few rejected banjo neck blanks in the wood rack, so I grabbed a walnut one (easy to carve) and shaped just the first position part of it into a neck shape, aiming to make it bigger than I thought it should be. That way, I could shave it down until if felt good to me and the future owner. I measured the starting point, then shaved off a little, decided it was a little too "sharp" in the center and rounded the shape a little more, then set it aside for the customer to evaluate. The plan was to have him see what the shape felt like then shave it down until he was happy with the feel.

When he walked into the shop and I handed him the dummy neck he said "That feels great! That's just I want a mandocello neck to feel like!"
So, I lucked out! (The more experienced I get, the luckier I am...)

----------


## sunburst

That gave me a target neck size and shape, so I simply measured the thickness and cut my neck blank to that thickness, minus just a little, and blended the back of the peghead and the back of the neck with a curve that suits my aesthetic sense.
I prepared a piece of ebony veneer to glue onto the back of the peghead for a back strap. Here it is lying on the back of the neck and peghead.

I have this leather-padded, curved caul for clamping these things to mandolin necks. I just eyeball the transition from neck to peghead, but when I do that the curve comes out so similar each time that this caul always fits well enough because of the leather padding.

----------


## sunburst

I set a hand screw clamp to fit the thickness and taper of the peghead, veneer and caul so I wouldn't have to make any adjustments when clamping the glued parts, did a dry run or two, and glued the veneer in place using hide glue. This is not a structural joint, so many of the advantages of hide glue are of no particular concern, and I've used Titebond for this before, but there are two reasons for using hide glue. 1, I had a batch of glue that was getting old and may not be full strength anymore so I might as well use some of it up on this non-critical joint, and 2, where the back strap feathers into the neck shaft, Titebond can show as a curved line that does not stain and finish well. I can get (hopefully) a thinner glue layer with hide glue and a less visible glue line at the transition from ebony to maple at the back of the neck.

----------


## sunburst

After letting the glue cure and removing the clamps it looked like this:

I'll be handling this neck blank quite a bit before sawing the peghead shape, and I've found that the loose veneer corners are prone to catching on things and causing splints in the veneer and just being a general nuisance, so I trimmed away the loose veneer.


At this time I would be ready to glue the shaped, front peghead overlay in place, but while I was waiting for the owner to come over and check out the neck shape I was living with my peghead drawing... and sure enough, I decided to change it, so I'm still working on that. (Tracing number 9 as of now.)

----------


## sunburst

I re-drew the peghead shape a couple more times, called it good enough once more, and quickly, before I decided it wasn't good enough again I reshaped the overlay and glued it in place on the neck blank.
First step was to line up the center lines and align the nut end exactly at the angle between neck and peghead. I clamped the overlay in it's correct position and drilled two holes for dowels. The dowel holes will align with the tuner holes so the dowels will be drilled away when the tuner holes are drilled. At least that is the plan, but I'm relying mostly on math here because this peghead is wider than my usual mandolin peghead, and when I rely on math bad things happen sometimes. I double and triple checked, so hopefully all will be well.

The dowels are round wooden tooth picks. I drove them in the hole and cut them off so that they don't extend all the way through the overlay.

----------


## sunburst

The dowels assure that the overlay is correctly placed when gluing and can't slip around on the fresh hide glue while clamping. Spread the glue, clamp in place with a leather-padded caul and wait for the glue to dry...

----------


## sunburst

With glue dried, clamps removed...

...and with glue squeeze-out cleaned up.

----------


## Mike Conner

John,
 - I really like the toothpick dowel idea. I'm going to use that for sure!
 - Do you insert the "biscuit" reinforcement for the headstock scroll? Maybe with the thicker overlay and backstrap that's enough, but just wonder what your experience is.
//mike

----------


## sunburst

I use toothpicks for dowels in numerous places. I've damaged tools by hitting metal pins and dowels many times in my years of instrument repair, taking damaged instrument s apart. That won't happen when people have to repair mine!
As for the "biscuit" or "scroll strengthener", my opinion can be found here.

----------

Mike Conner

----------


## sunburst

Continuing with the neck: Problem solving mode again...
First problem, I have already run into this one so I was anticipating it.
Mandoin tuners plates have always been flat on the back surface, the surface that fits against the back of the peghead, so that was what I expected when I broke one of my "rules"  some time back, and drilled the tuner holes in a mandolin peghead before I had the tuners in the shop. What could go wrong?
This could go wrong!

Suddenly there is a metal ring of some kind, I suppose for some purpose, at the base of the tuner posts. No problem, I thought, the holes are big enough to accommodate the little ring. It did turn out to be a problem, though, because I use the thin metal tuner bushings, the "20s style", because they are light weight. They require a smaller hole in the peghead than the bulkier bushings that come with most tuners, but still the hole is as big as the diameter of the little ring-thing at the tuner posts. I tried the tuners in the drilled peghead and they fit fully into the holes so I still said "no problem"... until I had the mandolin finishes and was setting it up. The tuner plates would not fit against the back of the peghead when I tried to install them. The ring-things interfered with the peghead holes after the bushings werre installed because of the taper of the peghead. The taper makes it so that the tuner posts do not go straight through the peghead holes but instead enter the holes off-center at the back of the peghead; off-center enough that the ring-things became obstacles. After cursing the manufacturer of the tuners and wondering why they can't just leave well enough alone, I resolved to reinstate my rule: have the tuners in the shop before drilling the peghead!

Well, my tuners were shipped a few days ago, so I used an A-style mandolin neck blank to figure out a way around this new problem.

----------


## sunburst

Here is my tuner hole drilling jig. It is a method of "pin drilling", much like pin routing.
This part of the jig holes the neck.

The bottom surface looks like this.

The holes fit over a pin in the other part of the jig...

...for accurate and repeatable drilling of tuner holes in the peghead.

----------


## sunburst

Here's how the jig is set up. The pin in the bottom part of the jig is pulled out, and a piece of steel rod the same diameter as the pin is chucked into the drill press and aligned exactly with the hole. That assures that when the pin is replaced, it is directly under the drill bit...

...and as long as the operator doesn't forget to lock the drill press table in place after setting up the jig, accurate tuner holes result.

----------


## amowry

Nice pin jig! I've encountered the same problem with the little washer on some tuners--I make a shallow counterbore to accomodate it. A few times I've done it after finishing with a forstner bit when I've forgotten to do it earlier.

----------


## sunburst

The stability of the jig enabled me to drill shallow relief holes into the back of the peghead to accommodate the obstacles on the back of the tuner plates. I chose a drill bit a couple of sizes larger than the one for the holes and drilled shallow holes...

...then drilled with the correct bit for my tuner bushings the rest of the way through. That left the holes stepped at the back of the peghead, leaving room for the tuner plate obstacles.

----------


## sunburst

I installed the tuner bushings in the front of the peghead and tried the tuners. They dropped right into place, so I knew that my little steps in the holes are big enough and I can use the same two drill bits for the mandocello peghead... which brings up the next problem to solve.
The 'cello peghead is wider than the mandolin peghead, so I can't center it in my drill jig and use the same tuner hole pattern. After thinking of various ways to trick the jig into drilling the holes where I wanted them, thinking of a couple of ways to figure it out mathematically, I finally went with this: I decided the distance I wanted the holes to be from the edges of the peghead and drew them in place. I drew lines down the center of each set of holes (each side of the peghead) and continued the lines onto the neck fingerboard surface and the end of the peghead blank. I could then simply visually align the lines with lines on the jig that I drew when I built the jig. That made it so that I knew the holes would be where I drew them on the peghead.
I was relieved that the method worked, and I was able to use my drill jig to drill the stepped holes in the 'cello peghead.

----------


## sunburst

This looks like a time to give a quick overview of my inlay set-up.
I use a Dremel flex shaft tool for inlay. I gave up on regular Dremel tools years ago and I've found that the flex shaft suits my needs better, but it was a challenge figuring out what to do with the motor and shaft while using the router base.
Here's the router base, from Stewmac, that pops onto the end of the flexible shaft.

I had a machinist friend cut threads in the hand piece so that it would fit into the router base (I showed this to the Sterwemac guys and they used the idea for their Foredom hand pieces).
I ended up making this "tower" to hold the motor and shaft more-or-less straight up over the inlay project. The base of the tower has this mechanism to hold it securely to the bench top.
les in the bench top and the mechanism tightens, by spreading the posts apart, for a secure attachment.

----------


## sunburst

There is a top piece that has a swivel mounting made from a castor with the wheel removed so that is can swivel as well as pivot...

...and it mounts in a hole in the top of the tower.

To counterbalance the flex shaft tool, I used what I had, and what I had was this large Crescent wrench. I strategically placed a hook to hang the counterweight...

So that the router base just hovers over the work.

I have to bring the router base down to the work, and when I'm done routing (or if anything goes wrong) all I have to do is let go of the tool and it will sort of float up out of the work.

----------


## sunburst

So anyway, it was with that rig that I routed for inlay and cut the truss rod pocket in the peghead.

I mixed a little black pigment with some superglue and flooded the inlays to secure them in place and serve as a filler.

----------


## sunburst

When I worked "at the factory", there was a shop-made tool to hold pegheads at the correct angle to cut them out on the bandsaw. Well before my time of employment, that tool was named Arthur, so every one I've made and used since I've referred to as Arthur.
It's basically just a tapered piece of wood with a couple of dowels to fit into tuner holes. (The spruce was added at some point when Arthur needed to be taller for clearance for some past operation.)

I knew that Arthur was not going to fit this peghead because it is larger than my usual mandolin/mandola pegheads and the tuner holes are farther from center...

So I quickly made Arthur II.

----------


## sunburst

I roughly cut the peghead shape on the bandsaw...

...and refined the shape on the spindle sander...

...and it is now ready to start installing the peghead binding.

----------


## sunburst

I made sure that the truss rod pocket gives me (and others) plenty of room to place a wrench or nut driver on the adjuster nut.

----------


## tree

So is that a paper template for routing the inlay of your name?  Does it have the centerline and horizontal line (is it a slight arc?) in it when you print it or do you have to add those by hand?

Also, the tower for the flex shaft and motor is way cool . . . especially how it attaches to the dog holes in your bench. Taking notes for my bench - to - be (although I may never build an instrument).

----------


## sunburst

After I designed/drew the logo, I made a computer file that is a full page of logos, and all I have to do is click "print" and (when the printer is working) I've got a whole sheet of printed logos. I draw the center line through each column of logos on the page, then a horizontal line at the bottom edge of the logo. There is no arc, just a couple of parts that are below the horizontal line. Now that you mention it, I could easily add the center and cross lines to my computer file, and I think I will... but I'll keep the other file too so I don't have the distraction of the lines when cutting pearl.

----------


## sunburst

Done. Thanks!

----------


## sunburst

One of the things I like about inlay and bindings is; I don't care how sloppy I am with glue!

The bindings will have to cure a while before I continue with the peghead.

----------


## sunburst

Frets.
First, the fingerboard must be prepared. The binding has cured for well over a week and I'm confident that it will no longer shrink excessively. I started leveling it with the fingerboard with a small plane...

...followed by a scraper...

...and on to dusty ol' sandpaper on a #5 plane body to maintain straightness.

----------


## sunburst

As I mentioned earlier, I bought this 'board radiused and slotted, so I was expecting relatively little work to sand the surface straight and level end to end. Instead, I found this bit of snipe from whatever machining process the supplier used. (Hopefully it will show well in this photo.)

Because of that, a little more sanding than I had anticipated was required. There was also a little bit at the other end of the 'board.

----------


## sunburst

After enough sanding to level the 'board from end to end...
 
...it was time to clean and prepare the fret slots. Gluing bindings to a slotted fingerboard inevitably leaves some glue and dissolved binding material in the ends of the slots.

I use a couple of re-ground  X-acto blades to clean the slots.

----------


## sunburst

A little bit of chamfer at the corners of the fret slots makes it easier to install the frets, easier to remove frets with less chipping, and helps the frets seat fully into the slots. This tool is the best I've found for chamfering fret slots. It is a checkering tool, normally used on gun stocks. There is a small burr attached by a pin to the handle. I have it set to cut on the pull stroke.

It leaves a nice chamfer in the slot.

----------


## sunburst

Level-sanded, slots cleaned and chamfered, the fingerboard is ready for frets. 

I'm using Evo gold fret wire. Here, I've pre-finished the ends of the short frets, and clipped the excess length from the full-length frets. I nipped the ends of the fret tangs to extend the fret beads over the binding before installing.

After filing the fret ends down to the edge of the binding, I'm done with the fret work until after the fingerboard is installed on the instrument. (No, I didn't forget to install two of the frets, the reason for leaving those two out will be covered later.)

----------

Nevin

----------


## sunburst

With the fingerboard to determine the profile, it is simple to center the 'board on the neck blank and mark the sides...

saw to the outside of the lines...

and with that waste wood out of the way, continue with the peghead now that the binding has had some time to cure.

----------


## sunburst

The binding and inlays are quickly leveled on the first belt sander with a 60 grit belt...

then cleaned up some with the second belt sander with a 120 grit belt...

leaving it looking like this.

----------

Pete Jenner

----------


## sunburst

A few minutes with the spindle sander leaves most of the edge of the peghead shaped and smoothed.

Many more minutes with all sorts of improvised hand tools and the the rest of the edge is shaped and smoothed and the binding width is fairly consistent.


I'll quickly mention that, once again, this is a bunch of extra time not needed for an "A".

----------


## sunburst

I have some side dot material that is a different size from any drill bit I have! I don't remember where I got it, and I don't quite understand why someone would make and sell dot material in the USA that is a size different from standard USA drill bits, but somehow I ended up with such material. Normally I would drill holes, press the dot material in and apply a small drop of thin superglue, but since I had to drill holes a few thousandths bigger than the dots, I set them in place with ivoroid "mud".

----------


## Verne Andru

Thanks for the brilliant photos and wonderful walk-through. I'm learning so much.

Q about frets and binding: aside from easier re-frets is there a rationale to putting frets over the binding vs. the inverse?

----------


## sunburst

Putting the frets over the bindings allows maximum use of fingerboard real estate. In other words, there is as much fret as possible for the width of the fingerboard, string spacing can be done without having to allow for the shorter frets if they are installed inside the binding. It is the best way to fret a bound fingerboard, IMO.

----------

Verne Andru

----------


## Nevin

> Putting the frets over the bindings allows maximum use of fingerboard real estate. In other words, there is as much fret as possible for the width of the fingerboard, string spacing can be done without having to allow for the shorter frets if they are installed inside the binding. It is the best way to fret a bound fingerboard, IMO.


I understand this on guitars but on mandolin where there isn't much string bending do you find it makes a significant diference?  Great buld thread BTW and thanks.

----------


## sunburst

> I understand this on guitars but on mandolin where there isn't much string bending do you find it makes a significant diference?.


Yes. 
The old Gibsons used thinner binding on the fingerboards so the short frets and binding tabs were not too much of a problem, and they did the same thing on guitars, BTW. I like using .060" fingerboard binding so that it matches the rest of the instrument, and I like for the entire surface of the fingerboard, including binding, to be usable for the player. The neck can feel slimmer while there is plenty of fret length.
Short frets and binding tabs are a means of speeding production; fret the 'board, grind the frets off square to the edges of the 'board, apply the binding, and cut the binding down to the fingerboard surface leaving the binding bumps covering the ends of the frets. No need for cutting the fret tangs, no need for finishing the fret ends, less labor means less cost for the manufacturer. When building by hand there is no need for that compromise.

----------

Nevin, 

Verne Andru

----------


## sunburst

Ivoroid mud cured, dots leveled, all looks good.

----------


## sunburst

I discovered a mistake. 
Somehow, in an earlier stage of construction, I didn't realize that the neck blank I used was perhaps a little too small for the depth of the body with the riser block. I decided to glue on a piece of matching maple to make the heel long enough to have plenty for setting the neck dovetail. It's very similar to the stacked heel approach to neck building, and the dark sunburst will cover it even if the matching wood doesn't look exactly the same. I'm not even sure how much of it will be left after fitting the dovetail and leveling the back of the rim. It just suits my habits better to have a little extra wood in the neck heel when setting the neck. There is no structural compromise with doing this and all will look fine, so I'm not even considering replacing the neck.
Gluing on a piece of matching maple:

The piece glued and marked:

With the excess cut off.

----------

Timbofood

----------


## sunburst

I decided the size of my neck dovetail and marked both pieces; the neck and the body. I cut outside the lines on the neck and inside the lines on the body so that there is plenty of wood for adjusting the angle as the dovetail is hand fit later.
First the neck. I cut the curve using the bandsaw. Notice the marks indicating where to stop sawing...

...so that I didn't saw into the tail at the larger end.

----------

Timbofood, 

tree

----------


## sunburst

I cut the tail itself using a dovetail saw...

...and finished up the cut with a coping saw.

----------

Duct Tape, 

Timbofood, 

tree

----------


## sunburst

I cut the mortise in the body by hand with the dovetail saw...

...then with chisels and files.

----------

Duct Tape, 

tree

----------


## sunburst

Here's my starting point for fitting the neck to the body.

----------

Duct Tape, 

Pete Jenner, 

tree

----------


## bpatrick

Thanks for the post! Question, why paulownia? Other than a readily available "economical" source? What other woods have you used for blocks? I've only used mahogany so far.

----------


## bpatrick

Never mind on the paulownia question. I researched the forum and found your past answers...https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...d-for-luthiery
Thanks for the great building thread!

----------


## sunburst

> ...What other woods have you used for blocks?...


For mandolin head, corner and end blocks, I've used mahogany, basswood, and paulownia, for end blocks I've also used hard maple and indian rosewood (for strength holding screws and resisting splitting as well as helping to balance the instrument in the hand and on the strap).

----------


## sunburst

Moving beyond the starting point for setting the neck. I turned the neck blank into a neck. First, removing excess wood at the heel using the bandsaw...

...then shaping the heel and the transition areas where the neck heel and the head stock become the neck shaft using mostly the spindle sander and a small drum sander in a drill press powered flex shaft tool.

From here, all I have to do is "connect the dots" and make sure that I keep the neck shaft straight as I remove wood using various tools.

----------

tree

----------


## sunburst

A draw knife is usually a poor choice for curly maple because it can cause serious chip-out. It's worth a try, though, and in this case I was able to get away with using the draw knife to remove a little bit of wood quickly. A draw knife can pull out a large chip at nearly any time, however, so I left plenty of wood for later tools.

The surform tool is a fast, controllable way to remove neck wood...

...followed by course and fine rasp...

Then a scraper. Throughout the process checking periodically with a straight edge to be sure that the neck shaft remains straight.

Finally, a long sanding block with first 50 grit and then 80 grit sandpaper.

----------

tree

----------


## sunburst

After shaping the neck shaft I went back to the transition areas and refined them some. I'll work on them more later, but this is enough for now and I'll proceed to setting the neck in the body.

----------


## Timbofood

Thank you so much John for sharing the whole project, it has been real entertainment, I don't build but, I'm certainly learning more than enough to know it's not a project I have any desire to attempt! Very very interesting!

----------


## sunburst

When setting a neck we must control "roll, pitch and yaw" throughout the process. to control roll, top and back center lines must remain aligned with the neck center line. For pitch, a simple gauge to measure projected height above the top, and for yaw, alignment of neck center line with the body center line.
Here's how I maintain center for the whole length of the instrument (yaw).
I prominently marked the center line on the end of the body, squaring it with the edge of the rim.

Since the neck angle doesn't allow for simply laying a straight edge along the neck and body, I securely taped this straight edge exactly on the center line.

I checked a reject mandolin rib piece against my table saw fence, and planed it straight. I used it as a straight edge to align with the neck center line using the taped straight edge to determine alignment.

----------


## sunburst

With those precautions in mind (roll, pitch and yaw), using chisel, incannel gouge, knife, files, chalk, and some sandpaper, I gradually went from this...

...to this.

As you can see, I managed to keep my center lines pretty well aligned.

----------

David Houchens, 

tree, 

Verne Andru

----------


## sunburst

At this point, I laid the back in place on the rim, shaped the heel button on the back plate to a proportional size and shape that is aesthetically pleasing IMO. I removed some material from the neck heel in accordance with that.
This picture was taken before the one in the post above which shows the heel with the excess material removed.
To me, a graceful, aesthetically shaped neck heel is very important to the look of an instrument. Getting the right proportion, not too big, not too small, establishing good lines and curves in this area go a long way toward making an attractive instrument. I once saw a very old Martin guitar with a very nice slim, graceful neck heel and it made an impression on me. I've striven for similar results ever since. That neck heel was obviously hand shaped by someone who took great pride in his/her work, who wasn't rushed, who was not worried about being laid off or loosing his/her job to a robot or CNC... guess I was born too late...

----------


## sunburst

When we are sanding a mandolin for finish, there is a strong temptation to sand cross-grain in the corner where the neck heel meets the rim. If you look closely at most old Gibsons, including Loars, as well as other manufactured mandolins (and some hand built ones too) you can see the evidence of this temptation in the sanding scratches going across the grain, following the direction of the corner. To help me avoid that, I finish sand the neck heel and the body in the area of the neck joint before gluing the dovetail. Not only does that help keep me from sanding cross grain, it allows me to more easily sand the scroll next to the neck and the neck next to the scroll.

----------

David Houchens, 

Verne Andru

----------


## sunburst

With the dovetail joint fit and the neck heel and rim finish sanded, I glued the neck joint and let the glue cure. Here's the back surface and the top surface with the riser block milled down to the neck surface.

----------

David Houchens

----------


## tree

2 things: 

1) The curved shoulders of the dovetail seem like an impossible challenge to me.  They're end grain, and it appears they're curved in 2 planes. Is the vertical curve in the edge of the shoulder a result of the taper around the curved rim? How much time did that take to fit, once you established your centerline target?

2) I had forgotten how big a beast this thing is until that full photo with your hand and straightedge in post 303 . . .

----------


## sunburst

The curve only appears to me in two planes. The taper of the neck heel is a curve, and where that curve intersects the curve that fits against the rim, another curve appears to be present. I think it's kind of cool how that happens.
How long did it take me to fit the dovetail? Too long. Fitting dovetails and bending sides are two of the jobs that I just can't seem to do quickly. With each bit of wood removed, the effect on all three, roll pitch and yaw, must be considered. That slows the whole process down for me. Guitar neck sets, with their almost flat rim surface, go much faster.

----------

David Houchens, 

Patrick Melly, 

tree

----------


## David Houchens

> With each bit of wood removed, the effect on all three, roll pitch and yaw, must be considered. That slows the whole process down for me. Guitar neck sets, with their almost flat rim surface, go much faster.


 Glad it's not just me.

----------


## tree

> The taper of the neck heel is a curve, and where that curve intersects the curve that fits against the rim, another curve appears to be present. I think it's kind of cool how that happens.


Kind of cool indeed . . . and beautiful, as it happens.

It would be nice if there were some sort of jig that could help those of us with less experience or skill to sort it out . . . James Condino has a dandy sanding jig for a non-tapered dovetail, but I can't wrap my brain around how a tapered one could possibly work. For some problems, I guess the old solutions (trial and refitting with chalk) are still the best.

----------


## sunburst

Here are two strips of paulownia that will become the back linings.

I bent them over the hot pipe (that I use to bend sides)...

...then glued them into the rim, after first freshening the inside of the rim with a little sanding.

----------


## sunburst

After the glue cured I removed the cloths pin clamps. The profile of the lining is still rectangular.

I first shaped the ends of the bindings where they meet the blocks and where I don't have room to use a finger plane, using one of my favorite pocket knives.

The rest of the shaping was done with a small convex sole finger plane, leaving the linings with a fillet profile.

----------

Duct Tape, 

Mike Conner

----------


## Clinton Johnson

Cool I really like that solid lining verses kerfed

----------


## sunburst

Here is a big, round piece of sandpaper that is meant to fit into my radius hollow forms for building guitars. It was sticky-backed when it was new, but it's been stuck to things and peeled loose from them so many times that it is no longer sticky-backed. Anyway, the most convenient reasonably flat surface in the shop is the table saw, so I clamped the sandpaper disc to the table saw to level the back of the rim along with the new linings.

The idea is to be able to sand the back of the rim perfectly flat by rubbing it on the sandpaper on the flat surface. 

It hardly ever really works, though. The neck heel and scroll area usually needs special attention to get the edges done. With mandolins, I can usually manipulate things until I'm satisfied with the flatness of the rim checking with a straight edge. I couldn't do that with this bigger instrument, I guess because of the size, so I made a quick "sanding paddle" that doesn't really look like a paddle. It looks more like a wood scrap with a piece of sandpaper double-stick taped to one end... and in fact, that's what it is; a wood scrap with a piece of sandpaper double-stick taped to one end.

Despite the makeshift nature of the tool, I was able to get the back of the rim plenty flat for gluing the back.

----------

Mike Conner

----------


## sunburst

With the back of the rim sanded flat, I located the back on the rim and drilled holes for tooth pick dowels to locate the back for gluing.

The idea is to align the center lines of the back and rim and establish the exact position of the back on the rim for further work. Things like marking for trimming the back to size...

...and marking for hollowing out the inside of the scroll.

----------

Mike Conner

----------


## sunburst

Hollowing out the inside of the scroll is not something that directly affects the sound, but it saves a few grams of weight, and the accumulation of small weight savings can add up to a lighter instrument, so with planes, gouges and scrapers, I made it look like this.

----------

Mike Conner

----------


## sunburst

I carved away some of the head block for weight saving also. The block is paulownia, so it is very light anyway and the wood carved away doesn't make much difference in the instrument's weight, but it allows me to thin the back plate more in the head block area, and since the back plate is hard maple, there is more weight saving. Another small weight saving to accumulate toward a lighter instrument.
First a couple of incannel gouges, then the sanding drum in the flex shaft.

----------


## sunburst

With the back located with dowels, the inside of the scroll and the head block trimmed of excess material and the edge of the back plate trimmed to near the binding stage, I finally glued the back to the rim using a menagerie of assorted clamps and cauls.

With the box closed I'm done with lutherie for a while and I'll have to work on cosmetics and ornamentation until later when it's time for fret work and set up.

----------

Verne Andru

----------


## sunburst

I've tried various ways of cutting binding slots in mandolins over the years, starting with the Siminoff tool on a Dremel; the tool later sold by Stewmac. I tried laminate trimmer jigs... 
Whatever I used, I always had to clean up the channel by hand to get it ready for bindings, even when the power tool worked pretty well and I didn't have to repair tear-out or other damage. Eventually I figured; if I'm going to have to do so much hand work to the channel anyway, I'll do the whole thing by hand, and I started to cut the top and back plate smaller than the rim outline by a little less than the thickness of the binding so that the ledge is mostly already there when I glue the plates to the rim. To finish the job of cutting for bindings I use a violin purfling cutter with the blade re-ground.

This blade shape not only makes the cutting edge much more durable than the rather fragile point that the tool comes with, but it also centers the cut on the guide post of the tool better so that I am able to follow the edge and get a more predictable cut. I've basically converted the tool into a small gramil.

----------

David Houchens

----------


## sunburst

Of course, this tool nor any other tool, other than perhaps CNC, can do the tight areas of the scroll, so no matter what, the scroll binding slots are the most time consuming.
After using my modified purfling cutter, chisels, gouges, knives, files, sanding drums, emery boards, scrapers, and whatever else did the job, my binding slots were ready to install the bindings and looked like this.

As you can see, I've only rough carved the scroll so far. I cut the binding slots to delineate the shape of the scroll as well as the spiral up to the central circle of the scroll, and once the bindings are installed and cured I'll complete the carving of the scrolls with the bindings as guide lines.

----------

Inklings, 

Mike Conner

----------


## sunburst

I installed the ivoroid bindings using Duco cement mixed with acetone and taped them in place using Stewmac's rather expensive binding tape. I don't really like spending that much for tape, but I haven't found any other tape that has the combination of toughness and "stretchyness", yet it peels loose from spruce with so little danger of pulling up splinters, so it is the best tape I've found for bindings.
Here is the instrument with the bindings glued and the tape removed. It wasn't bound a minute too soon! I thought I was going to beat it to pieces against lamps, tools, benches and other shop items. This thing is huge! Turning it and spinning it around to work on various parts of it takes up an enormous amount of space, and items in that space don't usually move out of the way when they see the mandocello coming.
I'll let the bindings cure and shrink for a while before doing more work, other than installing the point protectors when I get the material for them.

----------

fox, 

Mike Conner

----------


## tree

Tool geek observation: what is it about brass and dark wood in a hand tool that makes it such eye candy? 

I dig the purfling cutter - looks almost like a mini marking knife with a guide.  But I don't envy you cutting the ledge (and everything else you have to do) around the scroll . . .

----------

Timbofood

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> .....This thing is huge! Turning it and spinning it around to work on various parts of it takes up an enormous amount of space, and items in that space don't usually move out of the way when they see the mandocello coming...


Hilarious  There is  never enough bench space even for little things -- looking awesome! Takes you back to when giant mandolins wandered the earth...

----------

Timbofood

----------


## BradKlein

> ...I've basically converted the tool into a small gramil.


Extra point for using the word, 'gramil' which I'd never seen or heard, although I've used what I called a marking gauge for many years!

----------


## Tyler K

> Hilarious  There is  never enough bench space even for little things -- looking awesome! Takes you back to when giant mandolins wandered the earth...


That's what Mike Marshall always says right? It's a good one..

----------


## sunburst

I have some 2 inch square pieces of 1/4" thick ivoroid that I have been using for point protectors on mandolins for several years. Obviously, I can't cut the needed 2 1/2"+ point protectors I need for this mandocello from a 2" square, so I had to get this rather expensive piece of plastic.

It is a 2" by 4" piece of ivoroid (I started to cut it before thinking to snap a pic), so I was able to get the two pieces for the point protectors.


I used bone for point protectors for years, but I concluded that ivoroid is better because of several reasons. Finish chips off of bone pretty easily, and the points do take some lumps. The bone piece itself can be knocked off of the mandolin fairly easily because the material doesn't "give" like plastic. Dyes soak deeply into bone so it is difficult to keep clean while staining the mandoln. Ivoroid can be solvent welded to the bindings and the joints can be seamless. The color of ivoroid matches the bindings exactly, and so forth.

----------


## sunburst

To install the point protectors the first step is to cut away the wood of the corners between the bindings... at least, remove what's left of the wood after banging the points against things in the shop. 
I squared the corners to the rim and filed/sanded the sharp edges to a more comfortable edge, then marked for the cut using a compass. 

I like for the protectors to both be the same width and for that width to be about the same as the width of the binding.

----------


## sunburst

I simply cut away the wood of the corners with a pocket knife. As you can see, I left little tabs of wood to protect the binding from the knife blade. I removed that wood last.

I used a chisel to cut the binding for the dovetail shape of the point. I thought I had a picture of that but I can't find it. It will show up later.

----------


## sunburst

Using a chisel and a file, I fit the ivoroid protectors into the dovetailed bindings.

I did some preliminary shaping of the pieces before installing them to save some time and work later, but still left plenty of material so that the position of the point when the dovetail tightened was not critical.

I glued then in place with ivoroid mud (ivoroid dissolved in acetone) and a dab of Duco cement just to help keep things from drying too fast as I was pressing the points in place.

I taped the points in place to let them cure.

----------


## sunburst

While I was doing that, I was also working on the extender piece that goes under the part of the fingerboard that extends over the body of the instrument. I grabbed a piece of spruce scrap and roughed it to this shape.

I began the process of fitting it to the instrument by chalk fitting the glue surface. It is glued directly over the head block and the contact area is about an inch wide.

The extender will be separated from the riser black by .060" binding. I thinned these binding scraps to about .055" and used them to position the extender for fitting. This helps assure a tight fit later when the ivoroid is installed and the extender glued.

----------


## sunburst

After getting a good fit I was able to thin the extender to near it's final size and lay the fingerboard over it... but first I had to be able to securely place the fingerboard on the neck in it's exact position. I lined up my center lines and clamped the 'board in position...

...so that I could drill these little holes...

...for these little brass pins.

The pins serve to positively locate the 'board, and they will also align it later when I glue the 'board. (There are two pins in two different fret slots, I just took a picture of one.)

----------

Inklings, 

tree

----------


## sunburst

With the board pinned in place, I could draw the shape of the extender...

...then cut it out using the bandsaw.

I use spruce for the extender because of the high stiffness to weight ratio and because it has the same wood movement characteristics as the top to which it is glued. I get a slight weight saving compared to the traditional hardwoods like maple, rosewood, or ebony, and I get a glue joint with less movement and stress when humidity changes cause wood movement. The extender to top glue joint is important structurally because of the constant pressure on the joint from string tension, so I want a strong, stable joint.

----------


## sunburst

After further shaping of the extender I made a tapered clamping caul to install it. I have one of these for mandolins, but it just seemed too small for this, so I made another. I clamped the extender to the tapered caul and drilled two holes through the extender and into the caul.

I then put the extender in place and drilled through those two holes into the surface of the top.

The holes are for toothpick dowels to positively locate the extender for gluing. I also use toothpick dowels to keep the caul in position during gluing and clamping. Now I can pin the extender in place and reduce the thickness to near final thickness, so that the fingerboard surface is straight from the neck onto the extender.

----------


## sunburst

Meanwhile, I still have this bit on binding to deal with at each side. I cut the binding with a razor saw and a slim file until a piece of .060" binding will just press into position.

I have a couple of strips of 1/2" wide ivoroid. I scored and broke off a couple of small sections to fit between the riser and the extender.

1/2" is not wide enough to do the job here without a little creativity, so I shaped the pieces and put them in like this.

I believe some guides call for a continuous piece of plastic here, but there are reasons that I don't do that. On reason is, it is not easy to get the edge of the riser and the end of the extender both perfectly straight every time, and with the gap in the center of the plastic piece perfect straightness is not important for a tight fit at each side. The main reason, however, is shrinkage. Plastics tend to shrink differently from wood, and a continuous piece can later pull in or bulge out after finishing resulting from shrinkage. That is much less likely to happen with two pieces.

----------

Beanzy

----------


## sunburst

I heated up my hide glue and glued the extender in place. As you can see, the tapered caul makes it so that the clamps are aligned for good pressure. The contour of the back would cause problems with a non-tapered caul. The taper also helps the clamps direct a little of their pressure toward the riser block to tighten the pieces on the binding material.

----------


## sunburst

After the glue dried I removed the clamps and flooded the binding pieces with acetone to "weld" then in place.
Attachment 159633
As I wait for corners and these binding pieces to cure, it looks like this.
Attachment 159634

----------


## sunburst

I realized I forgot to show you what the extender looks like.
I've never liked the look of an extender that hides back up under the end of the fingerboard, especially when it is obvious that no effort was made to make the thing presentable, as if it can't bee seen at all. I prefer an extender that sort of looks like an extension of the neck. One that extends all the way to the edges and the end of the fingerboard, and is finished to match the instrument.
Attachment 159635

----------

Beanzy, 

Mike Conner

----------


## Timbofood

I know I've said this before but, thanks John, this has been so much fun for even a non builder to watch progress! All the little things that go into making these fascinating instruments explained and illustrated so nicely! Thanks again.

----------


## sunburst

With the extender glued in place I milled (sanded) the whole top surface of the neck/extender straight and flat, then sanded a little bit of drop-off from the 12th 13th fret area to the end of the extender to get the surface ready for gluing the fingerboard. That flattened the bits of binding that protruded.

----------


## sunburst

I also flattened and refreshed the glue surface of the underside of the fingerboard.
I've found that hot hide glue can draw color from the dark wood of a fingerboard and glue squeeze-out along the bottom of the fingerboard binding can leave a dark line, so I started sizing the underside of fingerboards with a wash of dilute hide glue.

The glue wash dries pretty fast, and when it's dry it only takes a few strokes with a scraper to remove any lumps or uneven areas so that the glue surface is flat and smooth.

----------


## sunburst

The drop-off that I mentioned is the reason for using two clamping cauls to install the fingerboard. One has holes to accommodate the brass pins that position the 'board. As you can see, I've used this caul before and that is why it has several holes in different positions. Both cauls are slightly over-radiused so that they apply pressure mostly along the edges of the 'board.

----------


## sunburst

After a dry run or two, I warmed the neck and the fingerboard for a little extra working time, applied hide glue and quickly clamped the fingerboard in place.

----------


## sunburst

Here's the glue squeeze-out after drying and removing the clamps and cauls.

This shows that I left the neck just a little wide. That allows me to adjust the board to the center line if needed without running into trouble on one side or the other, and it allows me to shape the sides of the neck to blend the bindings into the neck shape.

----------


## sunburst

After filing/scraping/sanding the edges of the neck down to the bindings I was able to see what my glue line looks like. It came out nice and clean looking.

----------


## sunburst

A little work with an incannel gouge...

...followed by some work with a half round file, and the riser and extender are ready for sanding.

----------


## sunburst

With the last two frets installed into the slots where the brass pins were...

...I'll wait a little longer for the corner protectors to cure and shrink before starting to scrape and file the bindings and begin sanding the instrument to prepare for finish.

----------


## sunburst

Bindings have cured for a while and I've carved the edge of the top and back of the scroll to the chosen binding width. I'll continue carving the scroll. I've left it very rough-carved until now. The bindings now determine the outline of the scroll curve, and the rise of the edge of the scroll from the rim to the scroll button. That rise determines the ramp of the crest of the scroll from the top and back to the scroll button.
It is difficult to see, and even more difficult to photograph what I'm looking for here. A want the ramp of the crest to follow the upward sweep of the binding, but not exactly. It's just an eyeball thing. I tried to standardize it early on but found that that didn't work for me, so I have to judge it by eye each time I carve a scroll.
The line I'm looking at is the line you can sort of see in the top and back against my improvised black background. Not only do I want that ramp to be aesthetically pleasing but I want a reasonably close symmetry between the top and back.

I got that line by carving, turning, looking until the line looked good from all directions.
Now that I have said "good enough" on that, I have established the scroll ramp and I can put the curve of the crest anywhere I want to as long as it lies within the flat produced by the establishment of the ramp.
I like for the scroll to display a constant convergence from the outline of the body all the way to the scroll button. That includes the outline of the scroll itself, the space between the scroll and the button, area between the crest and the outer binding as well as the area between the crest and the inner binding. It would seem that that would dictate exactly where the crest would be located, but it actually allows quite a bit of leeway, so I generally have to draw, erase, re-draw and fine tune the line for the crest of the scroll until I finally declare it "good enough". This one turned out like this.

I drew the line on one side then transferred it to the other in order to maintain symmetry, even though we can't see both sides at the same time. I guess it's the same reason we don't put two different kinds of hub caps on each side of the car...

----------

Duct Tape, 

Mike Conner

----------


## sunburst

The parameters of the scroll are now outlined and all I have to do it connect the dots, so to speak.
I used gouges, knives, chisels, planes, scrapers, and any tool that did the job to carve between the bindings and the crest.
Attachment 159776Attachment 159777
I can still massage the crest from side to side a little as I continue to carve, so if the line doesn't look quite right to me I still have the chance to improve it.

----------

Duct Tape

----------


## sunburst

I planed the bindings down in width. I used 1/4" bindings rather than the 3/16" i usually use on mandolins, but I didn't want them to be fully 1/4" wide, just potentially a little wider than 3/16" because of the size of the instrument.

A curved scraper reestablished the re-curve into the binding and started to blend the scroll carving into the plates.

----------

Duct Tape, 

michaelcj, 

Mike Conner

----------


## sunburst

Why is it so hard to find a tool as useful as an incannel gouge?

A bevel edge chisel does the other side of the point just fine.

I've now scraped all the bindings level with the body and it's time to start sanding.

----------

Duct Tape, 

Patrick Melly

----------


## tree

That last shot looks like a calendar photo.  You probably have enough high quality photos to make calendars galore . . .

All those curves and planes and constantly being aware of grain direction, wow.

----------


## tree

The shot with the scraper was the one I was looking at when I posted.

----------


## sunburst

...and sanding...

(80 grit, whole thing.)

----------

bernabe, 

j. condino, 

Pete Jenner

----------


## j. condino

'Looks good John! 'Hope you are charging a good price for all of that hard work you are putting in.....

----------


## fox

It just looks so accurate, symmetrical,  and sharp, outstanding work!

----------


## sunburst

...and sanding.
Sanded the whole thing with 120 grit, constantly side-lighting to observe the contours as well as look for scratches that still need attention...

...then raised the grain by wetting the surface...

... and letting it dry.

----------


## sunburst

With the grain raised, scratches that were hard to see become more evident because the wood fibers swell from their compressed state, so scratches that have been sanded level are now raised and more visible. Not sure how well these will show up at internet resolution, but I'll try a couple of pics.

Also, remaining areas of glue on the surface are easier to see after wetting and raising the grain. Here is a little bit of both; scratches and glue.

----------


## sunburst

These areas got some special attention by sanding them out before proceeding, then I turned my attention to such things as small chips and gaps at the edges of the bindings.
Here's my filler for those.

Durhams doesn't take dyes well once it is dry in a fill, so I added a little of the dark dye that I will be using for the sunburst coloring later. This will help the small fills "disappear" under the finish.

----------


## sunburst

The fills look pretty ugly when they are first applied...

...but after the filler is cured and sanded they are barely visible.


I also touched up a couple of places at the point protectors using some ivoroid mud.

----------

Dave Sheets, 

Duct Tape, 

Matt Harris

----------


## sunburst

With all of the scratches and other problems that I can find touched up, I sanded the whole thing to 220 grit and once again wet the surface to raise the grain. That is the present condition of the project, and assuming I don't find many other things to correct (like this bit of stray glue), the next step is to lightly re-sand and begin the sunburst coloring.

----------


## Pete Jenner

I've found this 'warts and all' thread very enjoyable. Thanks John.

----------


## sunburst

Meanwhile, I'm about to finish sanding on my other current project so that I can retrieve my fresh air supply respirator to once again use in the finish room in the shop so that I can begin the finish process on the mandocelo.


(Anyone who has done drywall work will notice all of the corners and non-90degree angles in this room, and understand the drywall-hell this represents!)

----------

Pete Jenner

----------


## amowry

Ugh. Drywalling is one of my least favorite activities.

----------

j. condino

----------


## sunburst

Yeah. We bought the house with two unfinished rooms (this being one of them). The other one, when the carpet guys were installing the carpet, one of them asked who finished the drywall and I admitted that it was me. He said "Good! now I know who to hire!". I promptly said "You can't afford me!".  :Wink: 

Once a friend (music teacher) called when I was sanding drywall in my former Virginia shop. She asked "What are you doing?" and I told her. She said "yeah, whenever I have a student who doesn't want to learn and a half hour lesson seems like 2 hours I think; 'I could be sanding drywall... on a ceiling' ".
Ever since, whenever I'm doing something I hate, I think "I could be sanding drywall on a ceiling" and things seem much better. Unfortunately, that doesn't work when we actually _are_ sanding drywall on a ceiling.

----------

Duct Tape, 

Mike Black, 

Nevin, 

Timbofood, 

Verne Andru

----------


## amowry

That's a good trick! I usually think to myself "I could be sitting in a cubicle", but I think I'll upgrade.

----------

Mike Black

----------


## j. condino

"I could be sitting next to an out of tune banjo player..."

----------

Duct Tape, 

Mike Black

----------


## Grommet

What a beauty John! This thread has been an awesome read. Your photographs document it superbly. I can't wait to hear this thing come to life.

Scott

----------


## jtv

My one drywalling experience was the edges around a door of a bathroom. That was awful to do.

Also that mandocello is looking gorgeous. I'm jealous of the future owner.

----------


## Timbofood

Two drywall projects...
I would rather have a root canal than do another one! That said, I am going to be doing some "surface work" in my bathroom soon anyway.

----------


## sunburst

I raised the grain again after sanding with 220, found a few more places to touch up, re-sanded, re-wet, called it good enough and lightly sanded to smooth it up for staining.
The first step in a sunburst using hand rubbed dyes (at least, the way I do it) is to dye the whole thing with amber dye. I got this far and started looking it over for problems again.
 
I found a few more light scratches in the top...

...so I sanded them out.

I've done this before, and for some reason, it doesn't cause problems with grain raising again as I continue with the staining process, so I just continue to stain over the sanded areas with no problems.

A note:
I'm using dyes, not stains, but the process here is normally called staining, so I'll sort of be using the words "stain" and "dye" interchangeably, but technically that is not correct because stains and dyes are different.

----------


## sunburst

Here's the whole thing stained amber and ready for the sunburst process.

----------


## sunburst

I didn't take the time to take a series of pictures of the sunburst process, but here are a couple of shots during staining.

----------


## sunburst

Here's the 'cello fully stained and sealed with a couple of light coats of sprayed blonde shellac.

----------


## sunburst

I am now in the process of scraping the bindings, starting with the more difficult parts. I like for jobs to get easier as they go, so I usually start with the hardest part. (I started sanding my drywall in the peak of the ceiling, standing on a ladder.)

You'll see a couple of exacto blades, one in a homemade handle, and an assortment of dental tools. Scraping the binding in the inside of the scrolls is sort of like cleaning curled up teeth, in a way.

What was I thinking when I extended the fingerboard this far over the oval hole binding?!

----------


## sunburst

I'm resting my eyes from scraping right now. I'll probably finish scraping, then touch up some places, then snap a pic or two before starting to spray the finish material.

----------

Mark Seale, 

Timbofood

----------


## Mark Seale

John - 

Any particular technique or advice on staining the interior of the scroll area?

----------


## sunburst

No, Just get dye in there any way you can. I use a cheap (read: disposable) watercolor brush and an air brush mostly. Also, you can "shoe shine" a strip of cotton rag through there. I do that on the peghead scrolls more than the body scroll.

----------

Mark Seale, 

Nevin

----------


## tree

I would imagine the owner's anticipation needle is pegged or maybe snapped off by now. Something about seeing the whole thing stained amber visually brings home how close it is to being finished. 

I sure hope there's a sound clip sometime, but even if not this has been one of my all time favorite threads; I hate to see it end.  Thanks for all of it!

----------


## sunburst

> ...I hate to see it end...


Don't despair, it ain't finished yet. The finish process can present all kinds of problems and take "forever".

----------


## BradKlein

> What was I thinking when I extended the fingerboard this far over the oval hole binding?!


In all seriousness, on the 'next one' would you extend a bit less far than the 2 octave reach on the A string? Or was that just a moment of binding-scraping-induced declaration. The fret's look to be quite usable all the way up - but I can also imagine sacrificing the last couple of steps for more clearance around the pick...

----------


## sunburst

> ...was that just a moment of binding-scraping-induced declaration...


Yes.
I originally drew it with 22 frets, but since Mike Marshall's 'cello is the inspiration for this one, I think I changed the number of frets after discovering that his has 24. I could be remembering incorrectly, but I think that was the reason for the decision. 
Regardless, it is tedious to clean sound hole binding tucked back under the fingerboard extender, and it is just a matter of degree. What's two more frets in the long run?

----------


## Verne Andru

I don't think those notes see much play time, do they? Looks killer tho...

----------


## sunburst

Bindings scraped, spots touched up, first lacquer spray. It will be looking about like this until the finish is fully applied then leveled and buffed. That will take a little while.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

BradKlein, 

Matt Harris, 

Timbofood

----------


## sunburst

...and sanding...

----------


## sunburst

Finished sanding the drywall, painted, and I just returned the floor nailer to the rental place. When I recover from three days of installing oak flooring, guess what? more sanding! Where would the world be without sandpaper?

----------

amowry

----------


## sunburst

I think I have finished spraying the mandocello. I still have to level and buff the finish without going through anywhere, so I don't consider the finish completed until that is done. I'll let it cure for at least a week before starting the buffing process, if I sand or buff through the finish, it's back to the spray room then at least another week of waiting before starting to buff again. Needless to say, I hope that doesn't happen, and I'll try to be on my best behavior working on it.
It is nice to have a proper spray room with a good exhaust fan and filtered incoming air! I don't think there is even a single dust speck in the finish!

----------


## BradKlein

I'm not in the market myself, but I'm sure that many are wondering if this instrument will be for sale, if it's already on reserve, or is a commission. Forgive me if the answer has been posted somewhere previously in the long thread.

----------


## CES

Brad, it's been commissioned. John mentioned it early on. I only remember because I recently bought a Weber Yellowstone Cello, and I'm really liking it. If I bond with it and John is still willing to undertake it, I may be doing the same in a few years...gotta get the kids through college first  :Wink: 

Phenomenal work, John!!

----------

BradKlein

----------


## MinkBrookRambler

A question about grain orientation in the riser block.  In post 294 the riser block is shown with grain running parallel to the grain of the top.  This makes sense aesthetically, but is there any structural reason for it being like that?  

This has become my favorite thread on the cafe.  Thanks.

----------


## sunburst

I can't think of any structural reason. 
Other than simply aesthetics, however, there is the glue joint to consider (actually a structural reason in a way) I want side grain at the glue joint between the riser and the head block so that it resists breaking loose or creeping. The grain could run either parallel to the top or perpendicular to the top and accomplish that, however.
There is finish to consider too. The ends of the riser block are carved to curve down from the fingerboard toward the surface of the top. Scalloped, sort of. If the grain ran perpendicular to the top that would present end grain for finish. Not a big deal, but I'd rather finish side grain.
The riser block is sort of a vestigial organ on a mandolin anyway, it's origin going back to Orville Gibson's early designs. It doesn't really need to be there if a mandolin is designed without it, and since it has no particular purpose other than aesthetics, might as well make it aesthetic!

----------

MinkBrookRambler

----------


## sunburst

...And since I'm waiting for finish to cure, I might as well start making a bridge.
As far as I can tell, there is nowhere to just go out and buy a mandocello bridge, so I decided to make my own. I could have modified an archtop guitar bridge, but since this is a giant mandolin, I just started making a giant mandolin bridge instead.

I like to fit the bridge to the top before buffing the finish so that any finish scratches that happen are not a problem, so that will be the next step. I'll go ahead and fit the roughed out bridge base rather than doing any further work to the bridge.

----------

Bernie Daniel

----------


## sunburst

Those of us who have been working with mandolins for a few decades will remember when we could only get adjustable mandolin bridges with larger diameter thumb wheels. No one was making Loar replica bridges yet, no one was using the smaller thumb wheels we see everywhere today. Mandolins were very much an after-thought for manufacturers, and since electric guitars were the real bread and butter for them, they had bridge thumb wheels for electric guitar bridges, and hey, those are good enough for mandolin bridges.
As it turns out, having been around that long, I had some of the old large ones in the scrap pile and I finally found a use for a couple of them! A giant mandolin bridge needs giant thumb wheels! This pair, that I found attached to a broken mandolin bridge, is even decently presentable. 

The posts from the old broken mandolin bridge were too short, but a trip to the hardware store was all it took to find a couple of set screws to use for posts. Of course, I got that idea from Steve Smith over at Cumberland Acoustic, and like his, these can be adjusted up and down or removed and replaced using a small Allen wrench through the holes in the bottom of the bridge.
The bridge currently looks like this. It is sanded out to about 600 grit, it is fit to the top, but the top of the bridge has not been cut for intonation yet. I don't know what compensation it will need, so I'll save that step until the strings are on.

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> ...And since I'm waiting for finish to cure, I might as well start making a bridge.
> As far as I can tell, there is nowhere to just go out and buy a mandocello bridge, so I decided to make my own. I could have modified an archtop guitar bridge, but since this is a giant mandolin, I just started making a giant mandolin bridge instead.
> 
> I like to fit the bridge to the top before buffing the finish so that any finish scratches that happen are not a problem, so that will be the next step. I'll go ahead and fit the roughed out bridge base rather than doing any further work to the bridge.


Great idea to fit the base up to the top before adding the saddle - much easier to manage and keep parallel with the top plate that way?

----------


## sunburst

> Great idea to fit the base up to the top before adding the saddle - much easier to manage and keep parallel with the top plate that way?


I just did it that way this time because I didn't have my set screw/posts yet. As it turned out, there was a slight resistance putting the bridge top on the posts and that flexed the base just enough to change the fit to the top, so I had to relieve the holes in the bridge top a little with a round file so that there was no resistance and the base wasn't distorted in order to restore the fit.

----------


## sunburst

I started sanding to level for buffing, taking my time, not hurrying. Started with 600 grit because the final sprayed coat was so smooth. Progressed through 1000 grit and moved on to 1200, and that's when I finally sanded through. There are a couple of reasons why I sanded through where I did; when I built my spray room I thought: "what's the biggest thing I'll spray in here?" and I concluded that it would be the body of a large flat top guitar. I didn't anticipate spraying an archtop guitar nor a mandcello. I've now sprayed both in there, and the space is a little cramped but still adequate. Getting a good coat here, on the underside of the lower body point seemed to be a problem though, mostly because I had trouble seeing what I was doing with the over-head lighting in the spray room. So anyway, the finish film was a little thin and a little rough here and in an effort to get it ready for buffing this happened.

It's a small sand-through, it's in an inconspicuous place (you know, like where you test cleaners...), but it has to be fixed.
This is a crow quill (not a real one, an art store crow quill) and sepia drawing ink. I've been using sepia ink for many years to touch up brown colors and I know that this brand can be made to match nearly any part of a sunburst except for the center yellow/amber, as well as walnut, mahogany, rosewood and other things. I also know that it is very colorfast, meaning I can expect the touch-up to stay this color and continue to match as the instrument ages. This brand is very difficult to find, and I've experimented with other brands, some are too red, some are too green, some change color as they age, so I track down Pelican brand drawing ink A sepia when I need more, and use it with confidence.

Here is the touch-up done. Experience tells me that this will look fine under a finish, though it looks too dark now. I basically just inked over the light spot where the color was sanded away, and sort of drew the curl of the grain back in.

I masked off the surrounding finish and used an airbrush to spray more lacquer over the touch-up and the immediate area around it. The touch-up is undetectable. I can't see it myself, and that means that probably nobody else will either, especially where it is on the instrument.

I'll sand and spray this a couple more times over the next couple of days, then I'll have to wait another week or so for the finish to cure before continuing with leveling and buffing.

----------

tree

----------


## HoGo

John, is there a reason why you don't use the original stain you used for the burst for the touchup?
I've used q-tip with bit of stain for touchup like that (either sand-through or on worn spots of my instruments) with good success (undetectable) so far, but I have made just few instruments so I maybe got lucky :-).

----------


## sunburst

One of the people whom I learned a lot of stuff from in my early days of lutherie had a masters of fine arts degree. With all of that art training, he used art supplies for many things where most other luthiers use more common materials. He was the one who got me started using drawing inks for touch up work almost 30 years ago. I find it much more controllable that using dyes. In other words, I can put the color where I want it, use more or less to match, move it around, rub it with my finger, remove it and start over, scrape it off of finish or bindings, draw in grain, etc. etc. Almost the only time I use dyes for small touch-ups like this is when I don't have an appropriate color of ink, and even then I often use a quill rather than a q-tip or other such applicator. 
As with many things in lutherie and other crafts, there is more than one way to do it. There are many ways to apply color, many materials to use, many tools to use, and good results can be had with all of them, but this is what I am used to and it works extremely well for me.

----------

Duct Tape, 

Timbofood

----------


## Timbofood

I'm curious, I spent some years in the art material business, what specific ink are you using? There were so many inks and dyes available some were not what were truly "permanent colors" one that was very much fugitive was "Dr. Martins". Great color but, they epwere designed for retouching and images which would be reproduced and original art would be filed for safety.
Pelikan drawing inks were significantly more permanent. 
Thanks for the fascinating series too!

----------


## sunburst

[QUOTE=Timbofood;1602713
Pelikan drawing inks were significantly more permanent. [/QUOTE]

I misspelled it, but I did mention that the sepia ink that I use is Pelikan brand, and it is "drawing ink A". I also use their black drawing ink and "brilliant braun", which matches red colors of all sorts. 
I more recently discovered that some black ink that I bought for refilling printer cartridges (an experiment that didn't work out) is some seriously black stuff! I started using it to black truss rod pockets rather than painting them.

----------


## Timbofood

Sorry John, I must have missed that line! You clearly stated what you use! Duh!!
This is so cool to watch.

----------


## BradKlein

> I more recently discovered that some black ink that I bought for refilling printer cartridges (an experiment that didn't work out) is some seriously black stuff!


I presume the experiment didn't work out because although you could feed a 'black-top' mandolin into the auxiliary paper tray of the printer, it always jammed. Oh well. Worth a try...

----------

Bernie Daniel

----------


## HoGo

I have a quill somewhere in my shop. Must find it. I've always used sharpened toothpick for tiny places. I also found out that using alcohol dyes for touchup can eat into varnish so I dip q-tip into stain, let it dry and then use drop of water to activate the q-tip and color the spot. (OK I'll admit, my wife always wonders why I have brown spots on my tongue when I get back from finish touchup :-)...)




> I more recently discovered that some black ink that I bought for refilling printer cartridges (an experiment that didn't work out) is some seriously black stuff! I started using it to black truss rod pockets rather than painting them.


I've used black toner powder (for copiers) with good results for blackening fingerboards (maple boards on violins) or headstocks.

----------


## HoGo

> I presume the experiment didn't work out because although you could feed a 'black-top' mandolin into the auxiliary paper tray of the printer, it always jammed. Oh well. Worth a try...


One has to do this before the top is attached to body and preferably flat-top (but don't use the drawer but side-feed) :-)

----------


## sunburst

I've sprayed and sanded the little finish touch-up area enough to wait out the finish cure, and since my materials and technique seem to have raised some curiosity I managed to get a snap shot that shows the result. I had to get the reflections away from the area and overexpose the bindings to get the color to show in the picture. I'll even post a "before" picture next to it to point out where the touch-up is located. I can't see the touch-up in the picture or in person.

----------

Pete Jenner

----------


## Timbofood

Looks great, John!

----------


## sunburst

...and sanding...
Another sanding report. The mandocello is sanded to 1500 grit and it's ready for me to see if I can buff through. Finger's crossed.
The floor is sanded to 100 grit and is nearly ready for finish.

----------

Nevin, 

Pete Jenner

----------


## sunburst

The 'cello survived the buffing wheels with no disasters and no buff-throughs. A little hand rubbing and the finish has a high gloss.

We used to say "you can read the wattage of the light bulb in the reflection!" when we wanted to describe a high gloss finish. Well, it looks like LED light bulbs don't have a wattage printed on them so well have to think of something else. If you can read backwards, however, you can read the warning in the bench lamp that tries to keep me from hurting myself by using a bulb with a wattage too high!

----------


## sunburst

Starting on the fret work.
I masked the fingerboard to keep the finish off of it. Now that the finish is done, the masking tape needs to be removed. Rather than just peeling it off, I cut the finish around the edges of the tape so that the danger of peeling finish off of the instrument is nearly completely eliminated.
I deliberately left the fret ends rather steep at the edge of the 'board (at the binding)...

...so that I can now file the fret ends to a better angle and in the process cut the finish down to the corners of the bindings. 
I used an emery board to file the corner in the curve.

I also filed the corner of the peghead overlay where it meets the nut slot.

----------


## sunburst

With the finish cut all the way around the edge of the masking tape, I pulled it off to leave the fingerboard looking like this. It is pretty clean, hardly any leaks of dyes or finish.

The little bit of color and lacquer that leaked at the frets is easily scraped off with an exacto blade.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Nice!

----------


## sunburst

I've already done this before finishing, but I checked the frets for level once more before proceeding.
I made this "fret rocker" from a yard sale adjustable square. I checked for rockers and tapped down any high frets that I found.

----------


## sunburst

I worked the frets in two sections; from 1 to 12 and from 13 to 24. My drop-off that I established beyond the 12 fret is the reason for that.
After using the fret rocker to get the frets as level as I could, all it took was this 400 grit diamond sharpening "stone" to completely level the frets from 1 to 12. 

As usual, the frets on the extender are not quite so level because of the difficulty of tapping frets on that bouncy, unsupported area. I used a leveling file for a few strokes before moving on the the diamond stone.

Here are the tools I used to level the frets.

----------


## sunburst

After leveling, the frets have a small flat area at the top.

I used this Gurian style crowning file to reestablish the crown on each fret...

...then finished the ends of the frets using a couple of safe edge files followed by polishing with 0000 steel wool.

----------

Nevin

----------


## Timbofood

"I ain't got the words"  -Texas Jack Vermillion.
John that is truly a thing of beauty, and it's owner will have a joy to behold and enjoy for a lifetime!
Thanks for sharing!

----------


## tree

Time for some strings!

----------


## sunburst

I might get the strings today. The need for mandocello strings sort of "snuck" up on me. It's sort of like the bridge; you can't just go out and buy a set. (You don't just go get a mandochello case either. It's currently in a guitar gig bag.)

----------


## BradKlein

> (You don't just go get a mandochello case either. It's currently in a guitar gig bag.)


I speak for the entire Cafe, when I say, "we are looking forward to a long and detailed case-building thread to accompany this excellent and illuminating one!"

----------


## sunburst

> I speak for the entire Cafe, when I say, "we are looking forward to a long and detailed case-building thread to accompany this excellent and illuminating one!"


You'll probably have to entice Cedar Creek to do that thread... If I can get the dollars together to go that route.
(I built a mandolin case once. "Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.")

----------


## sunburst

You know how, when you are almost finished with your first instrument you get really anxious? Can't wait to finish it up and see how it sounds? Work on it for too many hours trying to get done?
Well, I guess we eventually outgrow that.

First, I didn't have a set of mandocello strings so I didn't know how to cut the bridge top. I didn't know if there were plain steel strings and wound strings in the set, all wound strings, or what. So I ordered a set of strings and waited for them to show up. While I was waiting, I was working on the house, working on repairs that people have been waiting for and stuff like that, so the mandocello sort of got back burner treatment for a while.

Finally I get ready to start setting the mandocello up. I found the tuners that I had bought for it, grabbed my box of tailpieces, and...
I ran out of rhodium (looks like nickel) plated tailpieces to match the nickel plated tuners! It takes a while to get e new batch of tailpieces done, so I started trying to find a good set of gold plated tuners. That's not as easy as it used to be. I was going to use Stewmac's elite tuners, but guess what? They don't sell them for F-style in gold plating... so I dis covered that the Schaller "Grandtune" set is available with gold plating, and ordered a set of those.

So, with all my hardware in hand I finally got back to work on the 'cello.

----------


## sunburst

Looks like I left off with the bridge looking like this:


I marked the string positions on the bridge top...

cut shallow notches at the back edge of the bridge top to position the strings for determining the cut of the bridge for intonation compensation, and bent these little pieces of wire.

With these little things, I can put strings on and move the wires until I have good intonation, mark the positions of the wires, then cut for proper intonation.

----------


## sunburst

After cutting the bridge top to my marks, sanding and finishing the bridge, I looked like this.

----------


## sunburst

I'll back up a little bit now.
Here I am preparing the holes in the peghead for tuner bushings...

...and the tuners in place to center-punch for the screw holes... all 10 of them! Yes, that's right, 10 chances to slip with a tool and do damage to the peghead. Some tuners only have 6 screws and that's plenty. At least they used small screws so the holes don't have to be too big and deep (with 10 of them, why not use small screws?), and they used Philips screws so keeping a screw driver from slipping out of a screw is reasonably easy.

Here are the tuners installed.

----------


## sunburst

Unlike some of the big names in mandolin building, Schaller didn't offer to send me a set of these tuners to critique, but while I'm at it, here is something else I found that I don't like.
The posts are too short! I designed my peghead thickness and taper so that the capstan area of tuner posts would all fully extend through the bushings, but just barely. Shorten the post and I end up with less space for winding the strings on the posts closest to the fingerboard. Make one of those strings .074" in diameter, and you get this:

I had to remove that string, cut a little off, and re-install it.

----------


## sunburst

Otherwise, the tuners seem to be pretty well made for factory tuners. The finish and plating is so so, the pearloid buttons (only choice from my source) are just as ugly as the old Schallers (and that's saying something!), and whatever the gear ratio is, I wondered if I would ever get the strings up to pitch, and when I tune the instrument I wonder if the tuner is actually working because I have to turn the tuner so many times before anything starts to happen!
So anyway, I'm not a fan of the Grandtunes, but they'll do the job.

----------


## sunburst

Moving along, I installed a tailpiece and end pin...

strung it up, adjusted the action and intonation, finished the nut, and...

----------

BradKlein, 

David Houchens, 

hank, 

Jim Garber, 

Mandobart, 

Verne Andru

----------


## sunburst



----------

BradKlein, 

David Houchens, 

Duct Tape, 

hank, 

Jim Garber, 

Verne Andru

----------


## sunburst

While I was setting up lights for pictures, I decided to keep this "glamor" shot.

----------

David Houchens, 

hank, 

Jim Garber, 

Mike Conner, 

Verne Andru

----------


## sunburst

So, how does it sound? (I figured nobody was going to ask that, so I'd just go ahead and do it myself.)
Mostly good. The C strings are sort of thumpy because of the short (25") scale, but there isn't much I can do about that. It's kind of like an upright or console piano. The bass strings sort of thump more than a 9 foot grand piano because they are so short and fat. Playing a little closer to the bridge helps a lot with that.
Hopefully, the future owner will do some recording with it soon and then I might be able to link to a youtube.

----------

hank

----------


## Timbofood

John, this has been so much fun to watch, thanks for sharing!

----------


## tree

+1

I've already used some things I learned - most recently, that a no. 102 quill is an excellent tool for delivering coloring agent (dye or ink) to small areas where precision is required.  Thanks for taking the time to document this so well!

----------


## Nevin

Looks very nice.  This has been a great thread.

----------


## sunburst

A couple more snapshots for size perspective. Mandocello and mandolin.

----------

BradKlein, 

David Houchens, 

hank, 

Jim Garber, 

Mandobart, 

Matt Harris, 

mugbucket, 

Paulmazz, 

sebastiaan56, 

Timbofood, 

Verne Andru, 

Vernon Hughes

----------


## mugbucket

This has been one of the most fascinating threads I've followed since joining the Cafe, Thanks John for sharing!

----------


## Duct Tape

Agree with recent comments. Thanks much for allowing us to ride along. Sorry to see the end near. Time to start a new one!

----------


## amowry

Beautiful work, John! Great color. I don't think many people realize how many tedious little steps are in the finishing and setup processes, so it's nice to see them detailed here.

----------

hank

----------


## Bernie Daniel

> So, how does it sound? (I figured nobody was going to ask that, so I'd just go ahead and do it myself.)
> Mostly good. The C strings are sort of thumpy because of the short (25") scale, but there isn't much I can do about that. It's kind of like an upright or console piano. The bass strings sort of thump more than a 9 foot grand piano because they are so short and fat. Playing a little closer to the bridge helps a lot with that.
> Hopefully, the future owner will do some recording with it soon and then I might be able to link to a youtube.


With a 25" scale length and say 0.074" (D'Addario) diameter strings your C-course will be at approximately about 68 - 70 lbs (34 - 35 lbs per string) total tension.  I'm surprised to hear that there is an issue with them sounding thumpy as you describe it?  Those mandocello strings are under close to 10 lbs (average) more tension than mandolin strings for example.  Of course what one person calls "thumpy" someone else might find OK?

Has this been asked before?   Why did you choose an oval hole rather then f-holes?

----------


## sunburst

The C-course sounds good, it's just that the other strings sound better, at least to me. One of the things I strive for in instruments that I build is good string to string balance. With this scale length, it's not easy to do. As I said, moving the pick a little closer to the bridge helps the C. 
The inspiration for this instrument is Mike Marshall's mandocello. The guy who ordered this one did so because he likes Mike's so much and wanted something similar... so, oval hole it is. If I had built it for myself I still would have chosen an oval hole because I think larger mando-family instruments benefit from the rounder, deeper oval hole sound as opposed to the slightly more nasal, cutting f-hole sound. 
I still have possession of the instrument while the future owner is trying to pay off debts and raise money, but he played it for awhile a few days ago and he likes the sound of the C-course just fine. I just think a longer, lighter string would sound better, as is nearly always the case in instruments like this. As I alluded earlier, there is a reason 9 foot grand pianos sound so much better than console and upright pianos. Nothing compares to those loooooong bass strings! In the case of a piano, string length is compromised to make the instrument fit into spaces like living rooms and other smaller spaces. In the case of a mandocello, string length is compromised in order for players to be able to reach and play notes more easily.

----------

Bernie Daniel, 

hank, 

John Kelly, 

Timbofood

----------


## David Houchens

Beautiful John. Merry Christmas too.

----------


## sunburst

Thanks David (and everyone else).
(I might be planning a trip back to the middle of Virginia sometime. I'll let you know.)

----------

David Houchens

----------


## thecelloronin

Gorgeous 'cello! Any chance of getting sound clips up and down the fingerboard? Would F-holes and tone bars possibly have alleviated the "thumpiness" of the C-course?

----------


## sunburst

We're hoping to put together a video soon, and then link to a youtube.
Tone bars and f-holes would do nothing about the scale length, and that is the reason for what I call the "thumpy" aspect of the short, fat C strings. As I see it, only a longer scale length would improve the sound, but then it would be harder to play. The guy who is getting this instrument doesn't have hands as large as Mike Marshall's, and this is the same scale length as Mike Marshall's 'cello. I don't think he would want to play a longer scale.

----------


## dan in va

i just have to say the scroll design of your F5 is simply the most beautiful thing out there, and the Gibson designers missed the boat.  IMHO, the Montelone is really good, but the Hamlett is the most graceful of them all....and a sure cure for scroll envy.  The unplated "string organizer" (another lovely thing) still graces my A5.

David has been doing a good job of taking care of the local luthiery business, but i think of the old Nelson Co shop everytime i go on a cider (nonpasteruized) run to Drumheller's.  The neighborhood just ain't the same without you, John.  Hope you're doing well.

And there's a '56 Martin A that could use a new fretboard and neck narrowing, too.

----------


## Verne Andru

John - beautiful work and excellent blow-by-blow, I learned a ton as others have said.

Looking back over the thread I have to ask - have you made one like this before or were you just going on experience and gut?

Just saying - between the great pictures and descriptive text you have the making of a great book here. Probably wouldn't make it to the top of the NY Times book list, but certainly something that would be treasured by many young and old. Especially with the world going more and more to automation, having an historic record of how building is done by a master would be something I would treasure.

----------


## sunburst

Thanks Verne. I learned quite a bit myself, doing this.
First mandocello, so I suppose it is #1.
I went by experience, research, conversations with John Monteleone, Cave Cohen, the future owner, and in the end using all that and more to just build it by feel, so to speak.
There are people who have built hundreds of guitars, there are people who have built hundreds of mandolins, but how many mandocellos has any one person built? In other words, there just aren't many people with a huge amount of experience building these things, so we must extrapolate (is that the right word?) from our other experiences and from what we can learn from others.

----------

Verne Andru

----------


## dan in va

My all time favorite biology professor would refer to something like this as "pooling our ignorance".

----------

sunburst, 

thecelloronin

----------


## thecelloronin

Hey Sunburst! Just checking in to see if that video ever coalesced. Really interested to hear this beauty roar!

----------


## sunburst

I talked to the future owner of the 'cello and he said he made some videos and recordings with it but he wasn't satisfied with any of them yet. I'll have to loan it to him again and see what happens.

----------


## thecelloronin

> I talked to the future owner of the 'cello and he said he made some videos and recordings with it but he wasn't satisfied with any of them yet. I'll have to loan it to him again and see what happens.


Sounds good John, fingers crossed.

----------


## sunburst

The future owner is once again having some medical expenses, though he keeps saying he is going to start paying down his balance on the mandocello. I'm certainly not pushing him. He doesn't need the stress of me breathing down his neck... and besides, though I can't play it, it's kind of fun to have a mandcello around!
He is an experienced pro musician and is also quite experienced with recording. He has recorded and mixed albums for lots of people, and his standards are high. I must say I'm anxious to have some recordings/video of the 'cello in action!

----------


## thecelloronin

Would he be opposed to you doing a basic recording of some open chords and scales? I'm certainly not trying to push either of you, but the more mandocello there is on the internet, the better  :Smile:

----------


## Timbofood

I really appreciate your sense of compassion John! We just had to cut a vacation short due to a medical emergency and you can’t ever tell when something will come up!

----------


## sunburst

Things move slowly, sometimes.
I don't have any sound files featuring the mandocello, but I was alerted to this youtube where it was used. The guy playing it is the future/part owner. (He is gradually paying for it, and medical bills, and...life goes on...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg8eSGaCHz4

----------


## amowry

Sounds great! Cool song too!

----------


## dan in va

John, i'm not always a fond of how mandocellos sound, but i thought yours was really good sounding in the video.  It's quite a gift to be able to make so many different instruments sound so good, almost as if each one is all you build, able to dial in the sound.  Quite amazing.  Lastly, your F5 is the most graceful my eyes have ever seen.  i struggle with asking you to build one for me someday.  Thanks for posting and all the work you've done on my humble instruments when you lived down the road.  -dy

----------


## scordatura

Hi John,

I watched the YouTube video - _your_ mandocello sounds great. Looking back on the thread, I noticed that the depth of your mandocello seems a bit more than that of the Gibson K-2 I have on loan. I might be wrong?  

Side by side with my traditional cello, the K-2 body seems to be half the depth and length of it. Can increased depth/body-volume play a role in how good the mandocello sounds? -- Trev

----------


## sunburst

> ...Can increased depth/body-volume play a role in how good the mandocello sounds?


Yes.
I did some research before starting this build, part of which was consulting with Dr. Dave Cohen. Turns out, the K2/K4 shape and size is less than optimal because the resonant frequency of the air mass does not couple as well as it could with the resonant frequencies of the plates. That leads to relative weakness of the C (bass) string compared to the rest of the instrument (among other things). The air resonance tends to be too low and/or the plates too high for best coupling. How to improve that? Well, to make the plate resonances lower we can make them bigger, and to make the air resonance higher we can make the internal volume smaller. How to do both at once? Make the body thinner.
The outline of this 'cello is bigger than a K4 and the body depth is shallower (at least shallower than any I've measured). No big scientific calculations to determine how much bigger and how much shallower, just a shot in the (semi)dark. Any move in that direction should be an improvement, until it would eventually get too bag and too shallow and the coupling mismatch would go the other way.

So that's a somewhat long winded way of saying that I made the outline bigger and the body depth shallower in order to attempt to improve upon the sound of the Gibson K design.

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Bernie Daniel, 

hank, 

scordatura, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

I’m never going to build one but, this thread has been a lot of fun to follow, thanks John!

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## soliver

I know this is an old thread, but a friend has been pining for a 'cello. I did a search for Mandocello build threads and found this one. I have been skimming through it and reading bits here and there for the last few days. I have thoroughly enjoyed the read and here is what I have learned:

A. What a wealth of knowledge and giving nature is John Hamlett! 
B. What a great thread!
C. What a beautiful instrument!

I myself have exchanged a good deal of emails with John about my own builds and for those of you who don't know, John is super nice, giving with his knowledge and always a big help. So even though this instrument sis 5 yrs old now, I offer massive respect and kudos for it!

Unfortunately the Youtube link is broken now, so after all that reading about it, I still don't know how it sounds  :Frown:

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Duct Tape

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## Denis Kearns

This thread was a new read for me and quite a delight to see just all the work it takes to make an excellent mandocello. Thanks Spencer for resurrecting this thread and kudos and thanks to John for sharing the process with us, and for enriching our world by constructing works of art that we can make music with.  

The Cafe is a nice place to hang out….

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