# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  1904 Gibson Octave Mandolin

## danb

Thanks to Frank Ford at Gryphon Strings  for emailing me the coolest instrument I've seen in years...

Feast your eyes on this.. #3878 is an original Orville-labeled Gibson Octave mandolin. Handel tuners, inlaid pickguard, pineapple tailpiece.. you betcha!

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Roman Pekar, 

SanzoneGuitar&Mandolin

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## danb

Some more views

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Jim Nollman

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## F-2 Dave

Way, way cool, Dan. What's the doodad between the tuners. Looks like it would enable you to use the octave mando for a giant cufflink if you wanted to. But, it'd be nicer to have two.

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## danb

I was just sitting here wondering what that wingus was too. A hook for the wall? a pick holder? a thingy to make it possible to set it on a table without rocking on the back? the magic winding key that activates the hidden musicbox? Maybe Frank will get a chance to chime in!

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## F-2 Dave

I'm sure it would come right off with a hammer and screwdriver.

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## Frank Ford

Of course, that little gizmo is a strap hanger. . .

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## danb

What do you reckon Frank, my guess is that the pickguard might originally have matched this one..

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## JEStanek

Is that the _only_ Gibson Octave mandolin?  A one off custom?  This is the first I've heard of a big 8 stringer other than a dola or mandocello!  It looks pretty good too.

Jamie

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## ptritz

Wow.  Any idea what this instrument's story is, and how it comes to be in such beautiful condition after 100+ years?  Or has it been restored?

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## goaty76

So, is this believed to be original or did someone do some kind of mod to make it this way?  What is the size of the body (mandolin, mandola, mandocello, or something totally different)?

Phil

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## Jim Garber

Wow, incredible. I think someone on another thread just recently stated that Gibson never made such a thing. Hey, you never now...

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## journeybear

That looks like it was picked up by Dr. Who and brought back directly from 1904 in the TARDIS. Pristine, sparkling, gorgeous - wow!  :Mandosmiley: 

Love the fretboard inlay, each one a different shape. I think the pickguard is just the plain version, and I like its graceful simplicity. There's plenty of other decoration.  :Wink:

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## JeffD

Thats a strap hanger isn't it?

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## sgarrity

What a find!

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## woodwizard

Asolutely beautiful! ... but for some reason the white pickguard just doesn't look right to me.

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## journeybear

I'm not completely sold on it either - plain black would look better to me - but from a historical perspective, it's intriguing. It may be that this is an example of the company experimenting with different looks before settling on the standard black or tortoise shell. I like it being plain, though, rather than the one on that three-pointer - that would be a bit fussy here, with all the other ornamentation already on it.

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## Rob Gerety

Gorgeous.  I bet dollars to donuts it was a custom build.  Love to hear some clips.

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## danb

It sure could be.. you know Rob, it's old enough it could have been a "let's see if there's a market for this" effort in the first couple years of the company!

I guess now we have a nice vintage example compensated bridge for a 21 1/4" scale OM too  :Smile:

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## Jim Garber

Dan, what is the scale length on this OM? I wonder if in this early time Gibson was considering following the European lead of the octave tuning for the mandola as opposed to the alto tuning. Or maybe they just built it for a player who preferred that tuning.

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## tree

What's up with the 2 extra slots in the nut?

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## Martin Jonas

I wonder how the body size and scale length compare to the mandola and the mandocello -- is it a short-necked 'cello, a long-necked 'dola or an entirely unique instrument with an in-between body size?

Martin

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## brunello97

Interesting question, Martin.  I was just trying to do some scaling comps in photoshop.  Pretty crude method-I tried to use the headstock and tailpiece as constants-I'm not sure if the cello scale is appropriately longer the OM. The body proportions do seem a bit cello-ish.   I hope we can get some proper measurements on this.  I'll bet is sounds real nice.

Mick

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## Goodin

is it for sale?

could this quite possibly be the first octave mandolin ever built? or are there bowl back octaves that pre date this one?

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## Jake Wildwood

Really cool find!

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## danb

> I hope we can get some proper measurements on this.  I'll bet is sounds real nice.
> 
> Mick



14-1/4" wide, 2-1/4" deep
Overall length, 34"
21-1/4" scale

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## brunello97

Thanks Dan.  Those numbers put my rough photoshop comp in the ballpark if the ~24-3/4" mandocello scale is usable.  Perhaps they outfitted a  'cello body with a shorter neck.  When did Gibson first start making mandocellos?

Mick

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## danb

As far as I know, right from the start. This is the first (and only so far!) octave mandolin I've seen from Gibson

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## mandoross

> What's up with the 2 extra slots in the nut?


Looks like it may have been strung as a six-string at some point, perhaps guitar tuning.

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## mrmando

> could this quite possibly be the first octave mandolin ever built? or are there bowl back octaves that pre date this one?


Octave mandolins existed before mandolins did. That is to say, the European "mandola," some variants of which would be equivalent to an octave mandolin, was developed in Italy in the 1500s-1600s, and the "mandolino," or "little mandola," came afterward.

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## EdHanrahan

Neat!  But what about the hole in the tailpiece cover, just above "The".  Has that been seen before?

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## mrmando

Yes, I've seen those holes in pineapple TPCs before. I suppose if you had trouble getting the cover off, you could stick a crochet hook in there and pull.

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## foldedpath

That is a very cool instrument! On the one hand, it's great historical ammunition for those of us who play carved "Gibson-ish" archtop OM's (like my Weber) in various styles of music. This makes it more than just a 1980's project to fill the catalog gaps by Weber and others. Hah! We pre-date all those Irish adaptations of the Greek 'zouk! 
 :Smile: 

On the other hand... with no other examples known, it sure seems like a one-off experiment by Gibson that didn't go anywhere. Or maybe a side project from somebody in the shop. It would be great if one other example surfaced, to show that they were at least aiming for some definite market at the time. Still, better this than nothing!

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## danb

> Neat!  But what about the hole in the tailpiece cover, just above "The".  Has that been seen before?


Yes- I've got a bunch in the archive. Seems to show up between serials 2500-3500 or so (ie the earliest factory ones).

Some of the orville hand-builds have the "Factory" tailpiece too. That's quite interesting.. requires more research and documentation!

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## Jim Hilburn

The company was just 2 years old and transitioning from the Orville style of construction to a more factory friendly method that became the ovals we're so accustomed to.
Could have been a time of experimenting on instruments that might fit into the product line. Great to have it surface.

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## Bernie Daniel

When you think you have seen everything you haven't -- wonderful.  Never knew these existed -- would have bet that they didn't.

Then again as they say Gibson made at least one of about everything.  Great find.

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## Bernie Daniel

> What's up with the 2 extra slots in the nut?





> Looks like it may have been strung as a six-string at some point, perhaps guitar tuning.


Might have been a nut from a tenor guitar? -- maybe this means they were cobbling up parts so its a pro-type?

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## journeybear

Maybe so, or maybe it was an error by an apprentice. The bass side slot looks too thin for the strings. This could have been something that a worker was tinkering with in his spare time - though even if he used spare parts such as this nut, and that plain pickguard, he still took the time to do the headstock and fretboard inlay. It"s a puzzler, all right.  :Confused:

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## Bill Snyder

> Might have been a nut from a tenor guitar? -- maybe this means they were cobbling up parts so its a pro-type?


Probably not. A tenor guitar in 1904 would not have been at all common. Washburn (a Lyon and Healy brand at the time) claimed to have invented the tenor guitar just after the turn of the twentieth century so I doubt Gibson had any spare tenor guitar parts at this time.

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## zookster

I am absolutely flabbergasted  (not to mention extremely jealous).  This MUST be the true missing link.  I was sure that Gibson had never made an OM.   Now we only have to wonder whether it was a prototype or a special order.  All the specs jive.  You have got to wonder why it never made it to production, other than the emphasis of the Gibson representatives on current written arrangements that had no OM part.  

  How about  a description of the sound,  Dan?

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## Goodin

i would like to hear it.  any way we can get a recording up here?

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## journeybear

Hey guys - maybe you should quit bugging Dan. Go right to the source - Frank Ford of Gryphon Strings. I have no idea whether or not he would be receptive to such a request, but if I am reading the OP right, that's who has it.

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## Goodin

> Hey guys - maybe you should quit bugging Dan. Go right to the source - Frank Ford of Gryphon Strings. I have no idea whether or not he would be receptive to such a request, but if I am reading the OP right, that's who has it.


i wasnt specifically asking Dan.  I was hoping Frank Ford would chime in here :Wink: .

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## journeybear

Didn't mean to single you out. People keep asking Dan this or that, but he doesn't have the instrument. Mr. Ford has posted only once, two weeks ago, when this thread started. Hoping he'll ring in isn't very efficient.

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## danb

That's ok, I get a lot of cool stuff submitted that I wish I had too. I'd love to have a whack at it too!

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## Mandolian1

Greetings fellow mando lovers,

We found this wonderful instrument from a friend of mine in Michigan whose lady friend had it for many years. It was slightly cracked on the top near the tailpiece and was reconstructed by Elderly's repair shop before we got it five years ago. The inlayed pickguard was replaced by the plain white one instead of being reconstructed. I have tried it with the headstock strap setup too which is fun in a group setting. We've integrated it live with a F-4, H-2 and K-2 with absolutely wonderful results.

I play a 1906 H-2 and have owned four H-4 mandolas since the late sixties. In the early seventies George Gruhn and I discussed these octave versions after reading one of the early teen catalogs. It had a few sentences (in the long diatribe) explaining why Gibson experimented with building a few "Octave Mandolas" (as they called it) and subsequently didn't put them into production. At that time they actually considered it a "b-st-rd instrument" because it trod upon the mandola and mandocello parts in their beloved mando orchestras of the day. Therefore it was left behind by the Gibson herd to float in obscurity. I called Lowell about it when it first arrived in California and he told me about the 3-pointer also pictured in this thread. They might have made more than these two but none others have surfaced thus far.

The somewhat dilapidated tooled leather case is natural instead of the customary black version. It's in a cardboard box awaiting the instruments future museum setting. My next book set with Hal Leonard will show this wonderful instrument in all it's glory and discuss the story of the 'Wayward Octave Mandola.'

Best regards, Robb 
http://www.halleonard.com/product/vi...itemid=332929&

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## mrmando

> At that time they actually considered it a "b-st-rd instrument" because it trod upon the mandola and mandocello parts in their beloved mando orchestras of the day.


That's really ironic. From the European POV, of course, the CGDA tenor mandola is the "b-st-rd instrument." Mandolin orchestras in Europe generally have GDAE octave mandos where Americans would use mandolas. And, as already mentioned, the octave mandola predates every other mandolin-family instrument. That catalog copy is a case of Gibson trying to rewrite history to align with its marketing strategy. 

Thanks for writing in about your instrument ... sounds like it's in more than capable hands.

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## barney 59

This guy just joined yesterday to comment on his never before seen instrument --that's cool-- someone must have contacted him to tell him it's being discussed. From his post I realized that I have met him. He's a pretty good picker I heard him playing mandola and guitar and when I met him he had just finished a book about Les Paul. I'm still meaning to buy that book Robb....

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## JeffD

> What's up with the 2 extra slots in the nut?



This has me really going around and around. 10 slots. And not 2-2-2-2-2, or 2-3-3-2, but evenly spaced 5-5. The bridge is normal 8 string, and the tailpiece I presume is 8 string, as is the headstock obviously. I just can't figure it.

One of a kind, never seen before, hitherto unknown to exist.... or are we looking at some kind of Piltdwon Man? Not a deliberate hoax mind you, but pieces of perfectly ordinary vintage Gibson instruments assembled more recently by some luthier whose motivation has never been recorded.

Many of you are much more informed and have a much mre trained eye, but hmmmmm.

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## Mandoviol

I'm of the opinion that the nut is a replacement b-st-rdized off another instrument (12-string?); no other reason why there would be 10 slots.  Either that, or the little ones between the courses are decorative (why I wouldn't know). But really cool; shame these didn't catch on at Gibson.

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## mrmando

Hm. Now it's for sale at Elderly.

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## Goodin

> Hm. Now it's for sale at Elderly.


Now it is "no longer available".

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## mando1man

Is this what you are lookin for ?

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## goaty76

Congrats on the great purchase!!!  I asked this before but don't think I ever really heard the answer.  What's the size on the body of this instrument?  Is it the size of a mandolin, mandola, mandocello, or something totally different?

Phil

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## mando1man

I believe it's a cello body with a shorter scale neck. It sounds awesome, loud, a guitar killer. Now on to the banjo players.....:-)

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## Andrew B. Carlson

Might we have the pleasure of a video?

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## mando1man

sure, at some point I will, been kinda busy at work. Thanks for asking.

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## F-2 Dave

Glad to see a cafe member end up with it. Is that a white fender bassman cabinet I see behind the mandolin?

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## mando1man

Close, F-2 Dave, it's a bandmaster.

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## mando1man

I ran across this video I made of it last year.

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Mandoviol, 

Mike Black

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## F-2 Dave

Nice. That 'cello has a beautiful voice.

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## Mike Black

Thanks for the sound clip of that rare Gibson octave mandolin.   Sounds great!   Now I want to make one.   :Smile:   :Mandosmiley:

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## mando1man

Thanks, I think a lot of those Orville label instruments sound great. And Francis Cunningham is such a great player. She does a lot of Irish gigs here and plays with Mike Snyder on the Opry.

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