# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Picking faster?

## Gunnar

So, I know this question has probably been asked before (probably several times) but like any energetic musical youth, I like to play fast. Very fast. But I just learned fire on the mountain on fiddle, and thats a whole new level of fast. I can play it pretty clean at 140bpm on fiddle, but only at 120 on mandolin. When I try 140 it cramps my arm. So, is there an accepted technique for the fastest picking? If so, what is it? If not, how can I pick faster? I plant my pinky on the top between the edge and the treble F hole, and I hold the pick as suggested, between thumb and index finger, pointing opposite directions, with the rest of my hand relaxed. I dont touch the bridge, but when Ive tried, it gets me slightly faster temporarily, and then about the same. Any suggestions?

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## kurth83

That's way beyond me, my top speed is 100-110 bpm, and consistent clean is closer to 90ish.

I have had some pretty good teachers try to explain it, mostly stuff about rest strokes, but I have not achieved that level yet.

Fire on the mountain requires you to pick two courses to get the drone course to ring. 
 Similar to pike county breakdown.

Exercises I have heard to build up to those speeds are essentially tremolo practice, start without the left hand, to get the right hand solid, then bring in the fingerings.  Cramping likely means you are tensing up, the tremolo practice is supposed to get you to be able to do sustained speeds while relaxed.

I've tried pinky plant, resting heel of hand on the bridge, both are about the same, I lean towards heel resting for now, but I think the pinky plant is less RSI prone in the long-run.

There are teachers on this board who can play and teach fast like that, maybe one of them can help.  Lessons with someone like that might be the best option.

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## Gunnar

Ok thanks, I'm a member of banjo Ben Clark's website, and I've asked there too. I'm not droning, just the single notes melody. When I try to go faster I'm definitely tensing up, and my tremolo isn't great, so I'll work on that, thanks. I considered shuffle picking, like the fiddle bowing, but I'm not quite that coordinated. I'm sure I'll get better with time and practice. I plant my pinky cuz I've done that on guitar and banjo so it's what I'm used to

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## kurth83

I'm a Banjo Ben student myself too. :-)

I was thinking of something more like 1-1 Skype lessons, something like what Pete Martin does.

I know he can play that fast, and once tried to explain it to me, but I wasn't ready for it yet.  A short series of focussed 1-1 lessons might get you to the next level.

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## Pete Martin

IMO playing faster has mostly to do with relaxing and not straining.  When you do that you have opposing muscle groups working against each other.  Practice in short bursts with short relaxation in between often gets results.  But this needs to be done over several months and years.

One other thing I noticed when I did a lot of transcribing.  All great players play simpler lines when at top tempos.  Makes sense, no one can play fast what they play at medium and slower tempos.  This means you need to develop a set of licks you can play at top tempo.

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dave vann

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## John Bertotti

I started to play over the fingerboard as an exercise. What I discovered was I was digging in a lot even when I didn't need to the fingerboard shows that with loud clicks. I can play faster if I don't dig in as far and I know I am getting better but not having any clicking on the fingerboard. Still, 120-140 is beyond me. SO take this for what its worth. At the worst, you give it a shot and eliminate clicks.

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## Toni Schula

Try to go from 120 to 121 rather than to 140. Getting faster is s slow process ;-)

By the way as for others, 120 is damn (too) fast for me. There is only one tune that I can play at 120 and this has a lots of quarter notes in it.

You can also try to practise speed bursts: 
https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...ht=speed+burst

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## Simon DS

As I speed up I find the eighth notes start to elongate and take up the space in the measure that should be occupied by the quarter notes. Then the timing goes, there’s a rhythm that’s related more to the number of string changes than a steady beat, and finally it’s often not even recognizable as the original tune.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XxvD41asKCY

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## Gunnar

Ok, thanks for all the advice, I'll work on all of that. The only reason for the 120-140 jump in precise numbers is that I learned it from a site that has backing tracks, and those are the two with none between. And unfortunately I currently don't have a metronome. I'll keep working on it  :Mandosmiley:

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## Gunnar

FWIW, it's my general goal to eventually get here: 
https://youtu.be/tlq62fA_zCU

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HappyPickin

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## T.D.Nydn

I'm a speed picker for sure,been that way my whole life and that's just the way it is,im" too many notes Nydn",,,but I think there is a concept called too fast for your own good..I play comfortably at 130-140,,that's a good picking clip,,150-160 is some fast playing,180+ is to fast,nobody knows what your playing but yourself,barely,even Rawhide can be played to fast,bring it down to 130-140 and you appreciate the notes better,,yes,you get cramped up,after 20 min I'm burned out and need a break,,,planting that pinky might be slowing you down..

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## Gunnar

What would you do instead of planting the pinky?

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## T.D.Nydn

> What would you do instead of planting the pinky?


Basically keep it curled in with the rest of the fingers,,,

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## Drew Egerton

Adam Steffey is just about the only human on earth that can successfully plant a pinky and play extremely fast and clean.
Mike Marshall is very much against the idea and instead prefers the heel of the hand behind the bridge for a reference point.
Try a few months of Mike's online class and he'll get your technique all figured out!

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## Gunnar

So you're saying that the heel is better than the pinky? Can you still play at the sweet spot? I find resting my heel makes my wrist feel tight. I can't take a lesson with Mike Marshall, because I'm a sixteen year old with no job, and as missionaries, my family lives on support. We don't have extra for lessons, and I'm only a banjo Ben member because it was given to me

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## Zac Hilbert

> And unfortunately I currently don't have a metronome. I'll keep working on it


This could be your problem. Get a metronome. Play at 120. Then play at 90. Then try 124. Then play at 60. Then try 128. And so forth. 
Eventually you top out (and if you are lucking, this might be close to 140.)

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Christine Robins, 

John Van Zandt

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## T.D.Nydn

> So you're saying that the heel is better than the pinky? Can you still play at the sweet spot? I find resting my heel makes my wrist feel tight. I can't take a lesson with Mike Marshall, because I'm a sixteen year old with no job, and as missionaries, my family lives on support. We don't have extra for lessons, and I'm only a banjo Ben member because it was given to me


 personaly,I say yes,The Heel Is Vastly superior to pinky rest,and I hit the sweet spot no problem. Playing just super fast is the begining,next is controlling your speed at will.listen to any good piano player,they play anything from whole notes to 32nd or 64th note flourishes,often within just measures,so once you can play hyper speed,,now you can control your speeds during a solo,slow or fast triplets ,during a slow piece you can put in 32nd note flourishes etc. To control and vary your speeds during a solo is a basic musical tool for expressing yourself..

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## T.D.Nydn

As stated above,speed is directly related to tremolo,,you can only play as fast as you can tremolo..since you play violin,the problem is in your right hand ,just got to get them two hands to sync. up..I practice my tremolo constantly,do it while watching TV or whatever,push for consistency ,speed,smoothness,duration,do open string and then any fretted note,work in patterns later,tremolo should be mechanical consistent,like a robot or buzing insect..

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DavidKOS

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## John Van Zandt

> This could be your problem. Get a metronome. Play at 120. Then play at 90. Then try 124. Then play at 60. Then try 128. And so forth. 
> Eventually you top out (and if you are lucking, this might be close to 140.)


This method works for me on a variety of instruments!

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Zac Hilbert

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## Free Rein

Hi Gunnar, Just google metronome, and at the top of the search results is a google metronome.  

The two biggest problems with teaching technique are
1) People can always find a counter example to what you're saying (but Sam bush swings is whole fore arm ... etc. etc.).  
2) People just don't believe you unless you are a big name

Regarding palm or pinkie, they each have advantages: Pinkie plant allows you to pick further from the bridge to get to the "sweet spot".  Palm plant does a couple of things, it prevents you from swinging too wide (and wasting time to get back) and it keeps the swing in the plane of the string.  Without the palm planted people tend to swing at an angle to the string, which weakens your upstroke. Don't let the palm slide up and down as you pick, plant really means PLANT.  If you see dark residue on your palm after playing it's not planted, its sliding.  If you have to apply a little more pressure on the palm to prevent sliding go ahead, that's OK while your building the new technique.

Here are some other things to keep in mind
1) All right hand motion should be from the wrist, not the elbow.  You CAN reach all four strings with the palm planted and not sliding. (Elbow is OK for chopping though).  The wrist should be swinging like a windshield wiper not a corkscrew motion. (Yes I know ... Ray Legere looks like he is doing cork screw).  Palm plant should prevent cork screw.

2) Keep the wrist loose and floppy. Get out of the habit of locking the wrist when picking starts to go off the rails.

3) Hold the pick loose-ish otherwise your wrist locks up

4) Leave as little pick exposed as possible. That way it will find the strings much more easily. If your index finger knuckle rubs the strings a bit, that's OK while you are building the technique.

5) Keep the instrument still (palm plant helps with this).  If the strings are moving around your pick will miss them as speed increases.

6) Don't try to move the pick by wiggling your fingers (Yes I know Tony Rice does this).  More generally don't do compound motions (like wrist + Elbow, or wrist + fingers) because it takes your brain 10 times longer to learn to control/know where the pick is relative to the strings.

7) Stop watching your hand while your doing all of the above!  :Smile: 

Good luck and let us know how you progress.

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Christine Robins

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## DavidKOS

> and my tremolo isn't great, so I'll work on that, thanks.


Working on good alternate picking AND tremolo go hand in hand. Tremolo is just fast picking on a static pitch (or pitches) and fast picking is tremolo with moving notes.

It's the same right and left hand co-ordination.

Plus I do NOT recommend ANY "planting" unless you play lute or 5 string banjo. A free hand is much more flexible.

That said, I am not primarily roots or old time or Bluegrass mandolinist. I'm suggesting traditional Italian/classical mandolin technique...why? Because it works.

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John Van Zandt, 

T.D.Nydn

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## Gunnar

Would it help if I took a video of my right hand and posted it here?

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## DavidKOS

> would it help if i took a video of my right hand and posted it here?


yes!

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## DavidKOS

> As stated above,speed is directly related to tremolo,,you can only play as fast as you can tremolo.... problem is in your right hand ,just got to get them two hands to sync. up..I practice my tremolo constantly.


This is pretty much what I am suggesting in my other post.

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T.D.Nydn

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## Gunnar

Ok, I'll try to get a video up by tomorrow, but it takes long to upload here. I'll get it as soon as I can

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## gtani7

While we're waiting for the vid, here's a good one study, Bush, Joliff, Skehan, McCoury, Hoffman.  Lots of differences in technique, esp. Sam, nobody can pick like him. 

I think it's important to read old threads about practice regimens in general, as well as reading specifically about pick hold, anchoring, wrist motion (forearm rolling vs breaking at the wrist) etc.  Especially working on lots of different chord runs, single note lines, chord melody etc. There's also threads about lowering action to sacrifice tone for speed, which I don't think is a great tradeoff.

Also i think armrests and pickguards can help, I don't have a pickguard installed yet but swear by the Hill Country McClung's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTJJdlswFPE

(One of htese days when i get a consistent work schedule i'm going to sign up for Pete's lessons)

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Gunnar

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## Gunnar

While I'm digging up all my technique, is no plant better than a heel plant?

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## Gunnar

I've seen that video, it's great. I've considered Sam's picking, but gave up trying to imitate it. I had a pickguard, but took it off cuz I preferred to put my pinky on the top instead of the pickguard, and it also made my instrument louder. And now a piece of the pickguard is missing and there's no eyeroll emoji to punctuate this with  :Crying:

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## gtani7

Plant or no: really you could spend the next 24 hours reading old threads about this, three's some tremendous pickers who plant, here's Nick Dumas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1v7zafUqO8

Back 5 years ago, he was just some guy advertising mandolin and fiddle lessons on Seattle craigslist, so i emailed and he didn't want ot teach fiddle, just mandolin.  Now look at him!  Amazing!

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## Drew Egerton

Trying no type of anchoring at all is like trying to write without touching the table at all. Most of us need some kind of reference to keep up with where we are. It's not a hard fixed anchor, just resting and brushing there so you know where you are.

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## Gunnar

Ok, what angle would be best for a picking hand critique video? I've been thinking a view from the fretboard side looking down the FB at my hand?

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## gtani7

These are all guitar vids (there might have been one for mandolin) but good angle/info https://www.youtube.com/user/troygrady

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## Josh Levine

As others have noted, its going to be all about the right hand, especially if you have fiddle experience and knowledge of what to do with the left hand. For my money the best way to improve right hand speed, tone and volume is to do a right hand picking warm up that only utilizes right hand. 

I would set the metronome at 100 or so. If that seems too slow, well speed it up. Since you are shooting for 120 you could start there and slow it down if that is too fast.
Start with 1/4 notes played in each click, do that for a couple minutes, 1 measure per string then move down to the next string and back up. Take inventory of your posture and hand. Your left hand should not be used AT ALL. Just focus on your right hand looking for tension, posture, etc.  
then move to 1/8 notes same deal, 1 measure per string. 
then alternate 1/8 notes so G gets 1 down stroke and D gets the up for a measure. Then go down to D and A. then A and E and back up. 
Sometimes here I will do cross picking
Then move to triplets
Then move to 1/16 notes.

If you can do this easily at 100 move it up to 105 and see how it goes. I guarantee you in a week you will see results if you do this for 10 minutes + per day.

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Gunnar, 

John Van Zandt, 

Simon DS

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## Simon DS

One leap forward that I had was when I did left hand hammer ons with a metronome and realised how poor my timing was when moving from one string to another. 
Thats a five minute exercise with no right hand.

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John Van Zandt

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## Gunnar

Ok, here's the video, I used the offending piece of music as the example 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AH8...w?usp=drivesdk

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DavidKOS, 

John Van Zandt

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## DavidKOS

> While we're waiting for the vid, here's a good one study, Bush, Joliff, Skehan, McCoury, Hoffman.  Lots of differences in technique, esp. Sam, nobody can pick like him.


 I'm curious is you ever watch mandolin players in other styles - like Italian players.




> Trying no type of anchoring at all is like trying to write without touching the table at all. Most of us need some kind of reference to keep up with where we are. It's not a hard fixed anchor,* just resting and brushing* there so you know where you are.


I use the top of the instrument on my bowlback and flat-top mandolins and when playing archtop mandolins I use the pickguard as a place to lightly touch in order to get the hand in place to pick. It's not planted nor resting, it's just a bare touch that gives a sense of spacing.

This is what I learned too from my guitar teachers, using the pickguard as a reference for the picking hand. The old method books I studied from do not plant nor rest hands.





Notice that there is no pinky plant and hand is free to move.

Yes many folks  that are great players plant some part of their hand, but I have not seen the players from Italy nor folks like Apollon use a planted hand.




I know this video has been posted but I'm using it an an example of a really GOOD right hand. Notice Apollon's picking hand is not anchored nor planted but completely free moving.




Another great, Jethro Burns, barely touches the string behind the bridge, but he too can use a free hand and even when it looks like he is planting on the strings behind the bridge, you can see his wrist moves across the strings, so he is just barely touching there for reference.

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T.D.Nydn

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## Gunnar

> Ok, here's the video, I used the offending piece of music as the example 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AH8...w?usp=drivesdk


Any feedback about my technique in this video?

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> Any feedback about my technique in this video?


Please consider that I come from a different style but do know and have heard your style mandolin playing for decades. I can even play a little like that! But I'm an really Italian-style based player that also plays classical, jazz, Klezmer, and a little choro.

You sound good!...but I think planting the 4th finger is limiting the motion of your hand. Now, this works for Scruggs and other related style 5 string banjo styles, the lute, and a number of famous and excellent mandolinists.

But those folks play mandolin well _in spite_ of their technique, not because of it.

Back to you:

How's your tremolo? can you play it fast, clean, and with soft or loud dynamics? 

You will definitely get contradictory responses to mine!

Thanks for being open to constructive criticism.

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Gunnar, 

John Van Zandt

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## T.D.Nydn

Everything that David said,you can't go wrong,,looking at your video,your picking nice and clean,,but that pinky is holding  you back..when it is,mounted,you don't have a true pivoting hand and wrist,the pivoting center is disrupted by the pinky,making almost two opposing forces,,,,curl in the pinky,off the rest,keep your hand pretty much where it is,just lightly behind the bridge,and your hand and wrist now have a free pivot point,,instead of "picking" each note you'll flow through them smoothly,,

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DavidKOS, 

Gunnar

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## Gunnar

Ok, thanks for the feedback, I've been experimenting with hand positioning since I started this thread, and it seems to me like I actually have better mobility with my hand with the pinky than the heel, but my general speed and accuracy is similar. I also pick far enough towards the fretboard that I'm accidentally palm muting a lot. My current thought is that it's probably not an either or, I'll practice both techniques to keep in my toolbox. Cuz like I said, my hand seems more mobile when pinky planting, so it's useful for things like crosspicking. David, my tremolo is not super good, cuz I started playing mandolin earlier this year, and since I mostly like picking fiddle tunes (bluegrass and Irish) I haven't specifically practiced tremolo. Also check this video 


For a longer look at my technique. I still feel like planting my palm (or even slightly brushing it) makes my wrist feel stiffer, but I'm gonna keep practicing it. Thanks for the help

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DavidKOS

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## DavidKOS

> David, my tremolo is not super good, cuz I started playing mandolin earlier this year, and since I mostly like picking fiddle tunes (bluegrass and Irish) I haven't specifically practiced tremolo.


Actually, when you are strumming, your hand is loose and free - can you also pick with your right hand that unanchored?  There's no need to change your hand from strumming to picking lines by planting.

You're doing fine for a less-than-one-year player.

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## Gunnar

No, I can't pick unanchored (ok, I _can_ but not with any accuracy or speed) I've always had to anchor. There's one instrument I can play melody on with anchor (Besides fiddle) and it's clawhammer on banjo. But I can't convert that to a pick  :Frown:

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DavidKOS

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## Bad Monkey

> Ok, thanks for all the advice, I'll work on all of that. The only reason for the 120-140 jump in precise numbers is that I learned it from a site that has backing tracks, and those are the two with none between. And unfortunately I currently don't have a metronome. I'll keep working on it


you're posting on a computer or a smartphone, you've got a metronome. 
https://www.google.com/search?q=onli...hrome&ie=UTF-8

there are a whole bunch of free aps for android and iphones as well. 
grab a tuner ap while you're at it, you never know when it'll come in handy.

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## dadsaster

This is basically how I pick -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awFeDMNiKX4 except on mandolin.  Strumming using a floating position with the wrist slightly cocked and touching down with the heel of the palm for crosspicking/tremelo/single line stuff.  Pretty quickly you switch between the two unconsciously.

That picky is getting in your way IMO.  I'm not sure what you mean by "better mobility" with the pinky down but I would give it a little more time.  Baron says most of my thoughts here -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-LurFm53dI

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DavidKOS

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## Gunnar

Ok, what I meant by better mobility is with the pinky I can easily reach the G string when playing mostly on the E, with the palm I have to stretch or move my plant to get there. Also, when planting my heel, my arm tends to lift up off the lower bout (where you install an armrest) and my picking gets very tense. Anyone experience that? I'll check out the videos later, internet here is dodgy. (Which is part of the reason I don't usually use Google metronome, the other reason is I usually can't hear it)

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DavidKOS

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## dadsaster

> Ok, what I meant by better mobility is with the pinky I can easily reach the G string when playing mostly on the E, with the palm I have to stretch or move my plant to get there. Also, when planting my heel, my arm tends to lift up off the lower bout (where you install an armrest) and my picking gets very tense. Anyone experience that? I'll check out the videos later, internet here is dodgy. (Which is part of the reason I don't usually use Google metronome, the other reason is I usually can't hear it)


When brushing lightly with the palm, you do have to slide your hand up and down along the bridge (arm movement from the elbow) when crossing strings.  It looks to me like you do this when pinky planting, which is causing you to feel more mobile.  Not to be pedantic but don't "plant" your heel, allow it to move along the bridge to reference which string you are on.

Mike Marshall has an exercise to practice string crossings:

G -> D, G -> A, G -> E, 
D -> A, D -> E, D -> G,
A -> E, A -> D, A -> G,
E -> A, E -> D, E -> G

All while preserving the down/up picking pattern.  You come at every string combination in both directions.  I still warm up with this regularly.

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## archerscreek

How are people measuring this? Does 140 = 140 quarter notes and thus 280 eighth notes played per minute?

I ask because discussions of speed in BPM seem to be all over the map regarding what each click on the metronome actually means. For example, I have an article where Steve Kaufman recommends picking fiddle tunes at 250 beats per minute, but then I also read a Guitar World article that measured a player's speed according to how many BPM a player could set the metronome at and still play four sixteenth notes per click. Applying the Guitar World standard to Kaufman's standard, that would mean a player should pick 1000 notes per minute playing a fiddle tune. I highly doubt that's ever happened. Haha.

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## Gunnar

This is four eighth notes per click. Easy way to figure it out, go turn your metronome on and set it to 140, then play along. If you can keep up, were probably talking about playing twice as fast (that's how I figured it out, I didn't know. I've regularly played at 250, but half as many notes per beat)

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## pops1

If you work on your tremolo turn your pick at more of an angle, it will give less resistance and glide easier across the strings. It will also be quieter, when learning tremolo you tend to pick harder than you need to and this helps. You can also turn your pick a little for the hot tunes.

I don't plant, but my fingers touch the guard or top if no guard. They move with my wrists and help control pick depth and accuracy for me. They touch very lightly and don't slow me down, I play dances, and for a group of hot dancers in a square the tempo gets to be very fast.

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DavidKOS

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## Dave Sheets

Watch your video closely.   When you switch from strumming to picking, you can see the muscles in your hand tense up, and that costs you speed.    Try practicing with a metronome on a phone or the computer and stay loose.   I'm not sure where I get to, somewhere around 130 or so,  haven't really tried to get above there,  but to hit that,  I have to stay loose.   For me,  bluechip picks help because they don't slide around on me, so my grip can stay loose.

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## Gunnar

Ok thanks. Pops1, do your fingers brush across the top? How do they do that? My mandolin has a nitro finish that is too sticky for my fingers to slide on. 
Dave, I'm currently working on staying loose, I can actually play the piece I asked about at 137 bpm, it's the last three that I can't get, but it's not loose at that speed. I'm working on the excersise from the "developing a fast precise tremolo" video. I use a Dunlop primetone pick, (large triangle 1.4) which is easily the best pick I've used, but I've not tried BC, Wegen, or any other boutique options.

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## Gunnar

Oh and btw, I've made it to 140, with a proper warm up I can play once through fire on the mountain at that speed, I'm gonna see just how fast I can get with daily practice, I play it at 160 on fiddle, so that's my current goal

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## Dave Sheets

Hey, nice!   I think you're getting me inspired to go sit down with the metronome.

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## Relio

> Hey, nice!   I think you're getting me inspired to go sit down with the metronome.


Practice with metronome and try pushing the pace everyday. Try different things with both hands, pressure, technique to find what works for you. Ultimately it will come down to how many hours you sit behind the mandolin. Good luck.

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## HappyPickin

> FWIW, it's my general goal to eventually get here: 
> https://youtu.be/tlq62fA_zCU


11 time IBMA Fiddle Player of the Year Michael Cleveland is also one heck of a mandolin player. He really likes to mash on it. I've never heard him play it at a mortal human's tempo.

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Gunnar

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## timmandolin

The best advice that I can give you is to stay loose and use a metronome. Just about everyone says this, but it's the truth. The more you tense up, the less you will be able to move faster because you are expelling so much energy to keep your muscles tense. I've heard some people say that it helps to keep your whole arm moving, but I generally don't do that. I just use my wrist and kind of flick it. 

Either way, the concept is the same. Slowly work your way up. Or, in your case, start fast and work your way up to even faster. You can always get faster. It just might take some time and effort.

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Gunnar

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## Gunnar

Well, daily practice of right hand technique did not end up happening.... I've been playing daily, but not focused practice on technique. Turns out, I was premature in blaming my right hand for my (relative) lack of speed. While my left hand can play that fast on fiddle, mandolin is a bit different. Also, synchronization between my hands is more important on mandolin. I'm still trying to get faster, but I'm also trying to get good tone and cleanliness in my playing. I have noticed that I can play faster with a closed fist resting the heel of my hand behind the bridge, but it doesn't have nearly as good tone, and it's hard to play the lower strings. So I compromise, when I need outright speed, I close my hand, when power or tone are more important I plant/brush my pinky

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## ralph johansson

> FWIW, it's my general goal to eventually get here: 
> https://youtu.be/tlq62fA_zCU



Why? The only mandolin player I know of who can create rhythmic interest at tempos like that is Chris Thile. Many times I don't realize how fast some of his tunes are until I attempt them myself.

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## ralph johansson

> I've seen that video, it's great. I've considered Sam's picking, but gave up trying to imitate it.


I'm glad you did and I wonder why you even attempted that. Bush had to revise his technique because  of an accident that made his wrist stiffen. This video illustrates what his his technique  was like before the accident:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_Q_fkvCLnY

Pretty orthodox, I'd say.

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## Gunnar

> Why? The only mandolin player I know of who can create rhythmic interest at tempos like that is Chris Thile. Many times I don't realize how fast some of his tunes are until I attempt them myself.


Why? Why not? I have no intentions of becoming Chris Thile. I want to get to where I can play that fast so I can. It'll make me cleaner at slower speeds, and if I happen to join a jam with Kentucky Thunder, I'll be able to keep up. I don't want to play everything at that speed, but I want the ability in case I need it

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## Gunnar

> I'm glad you did and I wonder why you even attempted that. Bush had to revise his technique because  of an accident that made his wrist stiffen. This video illustrates what his his technique  was like before the accident:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_Q_fkvCLnY
> 
> Pretty orthodox, I'd say.


I attempted (briefly) to imitate his picking because he has the most relaxed looking right hand of anyone I've seen. I've heard his wrist is broken or something, but it looks loose to me. In that video his technique is pretty orthodox, but not nearly as interesting as it is now

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## tmsweeney

probably been said  a million times here but play at a speed you are comfortable with - with a metronome.
Its kind of like push ups and sit ups, you do 10 push ups one night you are not going to see gains in strength the next day, you need to keep doing push ups daily an increasing the volume as much as you can.
Make sure the notes are clean at the speed that works for you - then start to speed the metronome up, if it becomes clumsy, back-off the speed until you are ready to move ahead. There is no "fast" way to gain speed in playing. It's probably worth while to practice with different melody lines (or fiddle tunes) instead of the same one, and very worth it to  move between keys ( C, G , D A, F, Bb ect), you don't need to rework the tune in the new key (but if you want to that teaches a lot about the circle of fifths) just find tunes that work in the native key - Red Haired Boy or Salt Creek for A, Cuckoo's Nest for D, New Camptown races for Bb and so on. These are just suggestions, any melody will work( I suggest starting simple -Angelina Baker then move forward to more difficult tunes). Also worth while to practice rhythm with a metronome. The right hand is very important so if you start cramping or stiffening up, time to take a break, and maybe re think hand position or ask a professional teacher, Banjo Ben is as good as anyone  else IMHO.

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BadExampleMan, 

Gunnar

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## BadExampleMan

This thread came along at exactly the right time for me. I'd like to share what I've been doing that's helped my speed, and also ask for some advice.

I try to do about half an hour of just tremolo practice daily. That's what I *try* to do. In general if I manage to do that 4 days out of 7 I call it a win. :-)

I use an (online) metronome. I start at a speed well within my comfort zone and then work up at +10bpm until things start to fall apart and then back off 5 and finish there.

At each speed I start at the G string and hang out there about 2 minutes, then go up through each string in turn for the same ~2min, and then back down. I concentrate on crossing the strings smoothly and keeping in time. Then I do 2 strings at a time, GD then DA then AE.

I've gotten a lot better at relaxing my right arm. Just not holding the pick too tight actually made a huge difference for all the muscle groups. But I still find I get tension and hence fatigue, mostly at my shoulder and my bicep. Is there any advice on how to work on that?

The other thing is, while my current best is about 140 bpm for tremelo (16th notes), I can't fret anywhere near that fast. Doing 8th notes at that speed is right on my ragged edge. (My benchmark song is Jerusalem Ridge because, one, lots of variety in rhythms and string crossing and two, cmon, it's Jerusalem Ridge!) What kind of exercises have worked for you to speed up your fretting hand?

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Gunnar

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## JeffD

Here is a different take-

The dirty little secret is that playing fast is not all right hand. And if playing a tune fast is seeming like an athletic event, there are other things to attend to. 

Ok sure you have to get it moving. But it is likely that speed of the right hand is not the issue, or at least not the whole issue. And the "speed"of the left hand really isn't either.

What I have learned over the past several years is that how you finger the notes of a tune make a huge difference in how fast you can play it. 

So many things become so simple if you can move between position, for example. I know several tunes that become butter left all day in the sunshine when you move the B part to third position. 

Things that depend on scales that happen to be break between two strings become so much easier to finger when you do the scale per the FFcP method.

Keeping fingers down and at the ready, perhaps even on the same string but below the note you are playing, greatly decrease "transition time" between notes or riffs.

I invite the great teachers on this site to correct me if I am wrong, but I think that if you are able to do a decent tremolo with your right hand, you have the picking and athleticism already, and everything else is left hand cleverness.

I leave you with this. https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...ghlight=reuven

Watch in this case Yaki's left hand. It is so relaxed, is not doing any incredible reaches or complicated string jumping. It is put in places where complicated jumps and reaches are not needed to play the notes.

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BadExampleMan, 

DavidKOS, 

John Bertotti, 

Simon DS

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## Mandoplumb

Speed is mental. Yes it is technique up to a certain point, but after that it becomes mental. For instance JeffD talks about leaving fingers down behind each other, we know that the milli-second that saves is immaterial but if it helps then by all means do it. It seems faster mental. We once had a rhythm guitar player that would flake out on really fast numbers and drag us down. I kept telling him to "push the beat" he was really playing fast enough he just wasn't in time.     mental. If I concentrated on keeping speed up with mandolin chop he would be ever so slightly behind me but he stayed there did not get futher behind.  Mental.   He couldn't get the push in his head.    Mental.     I told him to practice with a record a song of medium speed and try to speed up the song with his guitar like he was with a band that was slowing a song down. It put in his mind how a bluegrass guitar was supposed to drive a song and you could not out play his rhythm.   Mental

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BadExampleMan, 

DavidKOS

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## BadExampleMan

(Progress update: just got neeeearly all the way thru Jerusalem Ridge at 150 bpm before falling apart completely. Yay me.)

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## JeffD

> One other thing I noticed when I did a lot of transcribing.  All great players play simpler lines when at top tempos.  Makes sense, no one can play fast what they play at medium and slower tempos. .


I read right past this the other day. Makes so much sense.

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J.C. Bryant, 

Simon DS

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## ralph johansson

> That's way beyond me, my top speed is 100-110 bpm, and consistent clean is closer to 90ish.
> 
> I have had some pretty good teachers try to explain it, mostly stuff about rest strokes, but I have not achieved that level yet.
> 
> Fire on the mountain requires you to pick two courses to get the drone course to ring. 
>  Similar to pike county breakdown.
> 
> Exercises I have heard to build up to those speeds are essentially tremolo practice, start without the left hand, to get the right hand solid, then bring in the fingerings.  Cramping likely means you are tensing up, the tremolo practice is supposed to get you to be able to do sustained speeds while relaxed.
> 
> ...


As I've said many times before: don't plant, don't rest. On a mandolin with pickguard the most natural technique is to play with loosely curled fingers, brushing across the guard. On a mando without guard the most common technique is having  the wrist brush across the strings behing the bridge, touching the strings "ever so slightly", to quote Mike Marshall.  Because they're there.

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## ralph johansson

> How are people measuring this? Does 140 = 140 quarter notes and thus 280 eighth notes played per minute?
> 
> I ask because discussions of speed in BPM seem to be all over the map regarding what each click on the metronome actually means. For example, I have an article where Steve Kaufman recommends picking fiddle tunes at 250 beats per minute, but then I also read a Guitar World article that measured a player's speed according to how many BPM a player could set the metronome at and still play four sixteenth notes per click. Applying the Guitar World standard to Kaufman's standard, that would mean a player should pick 1000 notes per minute playing a fiddle tune. I highly doubt that's ever happened. Haha.


The confusion arises because some people think 2/2, others think 4/4. 250 bpm in 4/4 is the same tempo as 125 bpm in 2/2. 62.5 bars per minute. I think of 60 (in 2/2) as medium, 90 as medium up, and 120 as fast.

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J.C. Bryant

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## hucklebilly

> Well, daily practice of right hand technique did not end up happening.... I've been playing daily, but not focused practice on technique. Turns out, I was premature in blaming my right hand for my (relative) lack of speed. While my left hand can play that fast on fiddle, mandolin is a bit different. Also, synchronization between my hands is more important on mandolin. I'm still trying to get faster, but I'm also trying to get good tone and cleanliness in my playing. I have noticed that I can play faster with a closed fist resting the heel of my hand behind the bridge, but it doesn't have nearly as good tone, and it's hard to play the lower strings. So I compromise, when I need outright speed, I close my hand, when power or tone are more important I plant/brush my pinky


I've made a long progression from brushing the pinky finger to a relaxed closed fist and it's made a huge difference. But don't rest the heel of the hand behind the bridge! What you don't want is a "windshield wiper" effect because that uses the same muscles on the top of the hand to engage on both the downstroke and the upstroke. If you think of the strings like a plane, you have to break the plane to strike the string and then get the pick back on top of the plane to pick the next note. (See Troy Grady's tutorial on pick slanting on Cracking the Code on this point.) The key is to let the muscles on the top of the hand relax on the upstroke--I've heard it compared to picking up a suitcase, but I tend to think of it as a heavy middle knuckle on my middle finger. As I begin the upstroke I imagine that knuckle feeling very heavy and and then I kind of cup my hand slightly into the pick stroke. I don't know if that makes any sense. Harder to describe in words than demonstrate in person.

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## Simon DS

Agree with a lot of the techniques you guys are talking about.
My technique (today) was 2 hours of playing the metronome pattern below. 
The strum pattern is D-UDU-D-U-D-
It’s a triplets exercise and the idea is to play it slow and as efficiently, smoothly, gracefully even, as possible (in terms of hand movement). You have to practice it long enough that you get bored and relax, leave your fingers to do the thinking. 
Then make changes, arpeggios etc to get your fingers out of the rut.

The basic pattern is D-U-D- D-U-D- ie. 6/8 time. 

Anyway, I did that and later in the day, playing 4/4 time my fingers were dancing all over the fretboard, clean and fast. Like magic, but not.



Good luck!  :Smile: 

ps. ‘relax’ meaning let your fingers do the thinking, or get your head to be relaxed.

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## Gunnar

Here's fire on the mountain at 160 bpm on fiddle, and I noticed at that speed tone goes bye bye, so I think 140 is probably an ideal performance speed.

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## DavidKOS

> I invite the great teachers on this site to correct me if I am wrong, but I think that if you are able to do a *decent tremolo* with your right hand, you have the picking and athleticism already, and everything else is left hand cleverness.


good point

If you can't play a good tremolo, you cannot play a fast moving line.

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## fiddlinduke

> Ok, thanks for all the advice, I'll work on all of that. The only reason for the 120-140 jump in precise numbers is that I learned it from a site that has backing tracks, and those are the two with none between. And unfortunately I currently don't have a metronome. I'll keep working on it


Yes you do have a metronome. There are a bunch of free online ones.

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## Gunnar

> Yes you do have a metronome. There are a bunch of free online ones.


That's been mentioned a couple times, and I used it for a while, but usually when I'm practicing mandolin is after my mom has me off the internet, or when the internet is down (frequently). But occasionally I do use it online, which is fine but it's not loud enough

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## John Bertotti

> That's been mentioned a couple times, and I used it for a while, but usually when I'm practicing mandolin is after my mom has me off the internet, or when the internet is down (frequently). But occasionally I do use it online, which is fine but it's not loud enough


Do you have a smart phone or tablet? There are a ton of metronome apps. A metronome is not expensive at the music store either, for a good basic one.

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## Gunnar

> Do you have a smart phone or tablet? There are a ton of metronome apps. A metronome is not expensive at the music store either, for a good basic one.


Yeah, and I had a metronome app on a previous phone, but it was always way too quiet so I haven't gotten one again. There's no music stores anywhere close to me, and a real metronome is priced out of my range, although I love real metronomes, they sound great and I like to see the swinging arm. I'm probably just making excuses, and just need to go practice....

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## John Bertotti

Type in metronome on Amazon. They range fro 16$, got mine on sale for closer to ten on up even some swinging arm types for 35 on up. The one I have as a dial and you turn it to the bpm you want itnis loud or quiet and will click or beep. Look around some are under ten bucks.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=metronome&ref=is_s

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Gunnar

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## derbex

> Yeah, and I had a metronome app on a previous phone, but it was always way too quiet so I haven't gotten one again. There's no music stores anywhere close to me, and a real metronome is priced out of my range, although I love real metronomes, they sound great and I like to see the swinging arm. I'm probably just making excuses, and just need to go practice....


If the phone is too quiet on it's own you could always use a smart speaker or headphones, even if just in one ear. If all else fails you could put the phone on an empty box or tin to try to make it louder.

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## Br1ck

Play at 122 bpm, then 124 bpm, then 126 bpm.........

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## Gunnar

Well, yesterday I practiced for (unknown period of time) with Google metronome, I played tunes, and practiced tremolo, I'm gonna try to practice with it for a week and see what happens. I'm really wanting to improve my tremolo since I'm not good at that. I experimented with different ways of holding my right hand, and found I got the best tone when I planted my pinky, picked right over the end of the fretboard, and kept my hand away from the bridge. I think it's probably a combination of angle of attack and leverage, but I also am pretty sure that resting my hand on the bridge muted the tone. It was WAY quieter, and I think it makes sense on the same principle as a banjo or fiddle mute. As soon as I get off here I'll go practice with a metronome

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## ralph johansson

> Well, yesterday I practiced for (unknown period of time) with Google metronome, I played tunes, and practiced tremolo, I'm gonna try to practice with it for a week and see what happens. I'm really wanting to improve my tremolo since I'm not good at that. I experimented with different ways of holding my right hand, and found I got the best tone when I planted my pinky, picked right over the end of the fretboard, and kept my hand away from the bridge. I think it's probably a combination of angle of attack and leverage, but I also am pretty sure that resting my hand on the bridge muted the tone. It was WAY quieter, and I think it makes sense on the same principle as a banjo or fiddle mute. As soon as I get off here I'll go practice with a metronome


When you say "plant" and "rest" do you mean literally? I've noticed a lot of confusion from the somewhat arbitrary use of these words. No one in his right mind *rests* his right hand on the bridge (or, more reasonably, behind it). Some people touch the strings behind the bridge ("ever so slightly" to quote Mike Marshall), others touch the foot of the bridge, but *rest*?? As for pinky it is quite common to drag the pinky along the top of the mandolin, which is  very poor idea if you have small hands (like me) or don't want to stain the or scratch the top, but, again "plant"? 

There *are* many good right hand techniques, and many more bad ones, as people's anatomy differ. Not quite so with the left hand.

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## Simon DS

Got tired of the Dunlop 1.5mm picks I normally use, 50¢ each, so I bought a Dunlop Stubby triangle.
They cost 70¢ and have a hard plastic, but also slightly sticky feel to them.
And what do you know! 
I can now play as fast as before, but cleaner. Haven’t tested it yet, but I imagine my top speed has increased.

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## Gunnar

> When you say "plant" and "rest" do you mean literally? I've noticed a lot of confusion from the somewhat arbitrary use of these words. No one in his right mind *rests* his right hand on the bridge (or, more reasonably, behind it). Some people touch the strings behind the bridge ("ever so slightly" to quote Mike Marshall), others touch the foot of the bridge, but *rest*?? As for pinky it is quite common to drag the pinky along the top of the mandolin, which is  very poor idea if you have small hands (like me) or don't want to stain the or scratch the top, but, again "plant"? 
> 
> There *are* many good right hand techniques, and many more bad ones, as people's anatomy differ. Not quite so with the left hand.


When I "rest" my palm on the bridge, (or behind it actually) it's not unmovably fixed, it's just resting a little. When I plant my pinky, it's a slightly more solid contact, (the same basic technique I use on guitar) but also not unmovable. It does slide around some, and it comes completely off when I play certain right hand ornaments. I cam play without planting or resting, but I find that I get more volume, speed, accuracy and tone with my pinky down than up. And in the event that I need to pick a little faster, resting my palm instead of pinky gets me a little extra speed (at the expense of tone)

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## ralph johansson

> When I "rest" my palm on the bridge, (or behind it actually) it's not unmovably fixed, it's just resting a little. When I plant my pinky, it's a slightly more solid contact, (the same basic technique I use on guitar) but also not unmovable. It does slide around some, and it comes completely off when I play certain right hand ornaments. I cam play without planting or resting, but I find that I get more volume, speed, accuracy and tone with my pinky down than up. And in the event that I need to pick a little faster, resting my palm instead of pinky gets me a little extra speed (at the expense of tone)



I usually reject advice like "whatever works for you", but   judging from  posts like this one, and your videos, you seem to be in control, and very clear about your goals.

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Gunnar

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## Don Julin

https://www.mandolinshealtheworld.co...ories/20181218

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Gunnar

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