# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  Lyon & Healy Mandolin

## Starrshine

So, new here, and my first post.  A bit new to mandos, but well on my way to a love affair.  I have a chance to pick up a L & H today from a guy.  He is not a musician and has inherited this instrument.  He told me over the phone that it has sat in storage for the last 40 years!  It is a model "C" and the serial # is 1303.  This could be a dream come true or a total nightmare.  Anybody got some thoughts?
Bob

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## Jim Garber

Could be a dream come true at the right price and in the right condition. it sort of depends on what the storage conditions were like. if you are confident on your ability to assess playability in a vintage instrument then you are probably fine. Otherwise, I would take along a friend who is familiar with older instruments esp mandolins. If that is not possible, either have an out for yourself: ask the seller if you can take it to a reputable luthier to have it looked over with the possibility that if it is a basket case you would want to return it. 

If it has small cracks, even open ones, those are usually fixable and at not too high cost. If it needs a neck reset that is a multiple-hundred dollar job. Warpage of the neck copuld be another concern.

Bear in mind tho that these are in general excellent mandolins and are pretty highly valued. The style C retails in excellent condition, all original, with all parts for over $1000. 

Oh, also make sure that it has the tailpiece cover. They are quite beautiful and very hard to come by. If you can find one they are pretty expensive.

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## Bob A

The L&H carved mandolins are wonderful instruments. Generally speaking, the sound quality is as good in the model C as in the more costly and fancily-appointed models A & B. I hope this is a good 'un, and that you get a good deal.

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## Django Fret

If it has been in storage for over 40 years, you might want to ask the seller if the strings had been loosened to remove tension on the instrument.  If the strings were removed, see if the bridge is still with it or you'll have a replacement cost for that.  I'd also check to see if the tuners move freely or if they are missing any of the buttons, and look to see if any seams have separated from the sides.  I agree that these are very nice mandolins and hope you do well with this one.

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## James P

Welcome to the Mandolin Cafe, Bob.   :Coffee:

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## Life Is Good

I would want to know more about it. They varied quite a bit. Scale length is important. They used and ebony stiffener instead of a truss rod so check for neck relief.

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## Jim Garber

Actually the neck used something they called "vulcanized fibre" -- sort of rubber or hard plastic. The pickguards were made of the same stuff. The neck is definitely an are to check but that would be the case with any mandolin.

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## Paul Hostetter

I don't get to take that many L&H mandolins apart, but the last two were like this:



First off, it has the Gibsonesque maple V concealed under the board, to beef up the mahogany neck. Then down through the center of the V is another strip of maple and down the center of the whole thing is a strip of ebony, not the hard rubber stuff. They used the vulcanized rubber for other details such as the gear coverplate, binding, tuner buttons, and of course the pickguard. Martin did this at the same time, and called it "black Fiberloid," which sounds like a medical condition.

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## Jennifer

Well, I hope it's as a good of a find as it sounds! Please post some pictures if you buy it!

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## Starrshine

Here it is!!!  It is short scale, but in very good shape!  Not too bad in fret wear, neck is straight, and very few dings.  Laid a ruler across the frets, seemed straight.  Took a couple strings up to close to pitch and checked intonation, seemed OK.  It's missing the tail piece cover.  Serial # is 1303 and his wife said that it had been her grandfather's in the '20s.  I paid $450.
Bob

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## delsbrother

Not an expert, but it _might_ be worth more than that.

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## F-2 Dave

That's beautiful, Bob. What's the back made of?

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## mrmando

The only thing I don't like about these heartwarming stories is that they're not happening to me more often. $450 is a steal, even without the tailpiece cover.

But I got a sweet deal on a Style B last year, so I guess I shouldn't complain too much.

Back looks like the standard birdseye maple.

If you decide you can't handle the short scale, let us know...

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## Life Is Good

It looks really good. I like the Birdseye Maple a lot. I think the tops were always Sitka Spruce. Also it looks really clean. It won't have the volume of a longer scale mandolin but as a L&H it should have great tone. Who could argue with $450? The cleanliness is a big deal. who wants to scrub themselves down after playing a filthy mandolin?

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## Starrshine

Yes, I stole it, I know!  He needed money, and it has found a loving home.  The back is Bird's eye maple.  I am a metal worker, so I feel confident that I could make a facsimile of the cover if I can get some pictures and measurements.  Anybody got one?
Bob

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## mrmando

Bob, my man ... 

If you can actually tool up to make facsimiles of L&H tailpiece covers, you could have a nice little side business going for yourself. Here's a nice closeup of one, from an old thread:



Quite a bit of engraving there. Now I'd say the majority of L&H A, B, and C mandolins still have their tailpiece covers, but suppose 20 percent of them don't. The couple of times I've seen a tailpiece cover for sale, the asking price was around $500. If you're able to come in below that, at $250 or $300, you might find a lot of interested parties. 

Pete Langdell of Rigel Mandolins has made some L&H copies with faithfully reproduced tailpiece covers, so you might want to talk to him about measurements ... I don't think he was able to work out an economy of scale to make mass production practical, but I don't know how much of a metalworker he is. Note also that Eastwood Mandolins has begun making copies of L&H mandolas, but they chickened out when it came to the tailpiece, and went with something much less elaborate.

My Style C is currently in the shop, but if I drop in there, I'm sure I would be allowed to take pictures and make measurements of the tailpiece cover till the cows home.

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## Paul Hostetter

> I think the tops were always Sitka Spruce.


I doubt it. No one was using Sitka back then. 

The tailpiece cover fits the standard Waverly cloud base. The cloud covers are easy to make:



But the L+H covers are not! The trick with the top of the L+H is to dome it properly before engraving it. 

Click here  to see what Weldon Lister, who just posted elsewhere on the Café, is up to with engraving. In case Martin's cows come home early, I have a good tailpiece attached to a Style A in my shop right now, and could also take some detailed photos and measurements if that'd be helpful.

I've seen several of those tailpiece covers become really stupid and insufficient belt buckles, and one that became part of a bolo tie.

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## mrmando

Of course, if you put it on a Waverly base, you lose the nifty built-in string damper thingie.

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## Paul Hostetter

> Of course, if you put it on a Waverly base, you lose the nifty built-in string damper thingie.


Not my point. The part of the base that holds the cover is identical to the simpler Waverly base. It's pretty clear they made them, and simply redeployed part of the pattern for the L&H design. The base is essential to keep!

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## 8ch(pl)

That is a good point paul.

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## bobbyburns

Paul, I have a Lyon and Healy that had a broke neck when I got it, and have had the neck out of a couple more. I have read several times about the vulcanized fiber neck bar, but I'm not sure that that info is correct. I know for a fact that the Style B with the broke neck I have has got ebony in the neck. It has fiber elswhere as you said, but the neck bar is ebony. Has anyone seen a neck apart that actually has the fiber? I wonder if this is a case of bad info being reprinted enough that it is assumed to be true?

$450? Man why would you even question that deal? I'd give that if it was in pieces. If it's playable as is, I think you owe a few kind deeds to the karma fund!

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## Starrshine

> Paul, I have a Lyon and Healy that had a broke neck when I got it, and have had the neck out of a couple more. I have read several times about the vulcanized fiber neck bar, but I'm not sure that that info is correct. I know for a fact that the Style B with the broke neck I have has got ebony in the neck. It has fiber elswhere as you said, but the neck bar is ebony. Has anyone seen a neck apart that actually has the fiber? I wonder if this is a case of bad info being reprinted enough that it is assumed to be true?
> 
> $450? Man why would you even question that deal? I'd give that if it was in pieces. If it's playable as is, I think you owe a few kind deeds to the karma fund!


Yes, I do realize that I scored big time on this wonderful instrument.  In all of this excitement, I forgot to mention one of the things they had entertained doing.  *They were going to give it to their five year old to play with!!!!!*  So, truly, I did the music world a good deed :-).  I took all the strings off last night, cleaned it, and fixed a few minor binding issues.  It sounds sooooooooooo sweet!  
As far as the cover plate, I could give it a go this winter when my work load (job) lightens up.  If I can get a rubbing of one, I would have an accurate copy to manufacture it.  Naturally, they stamped theirs, but there are other ways to achieve the same results.  Thanks for welcoming into the fold folks.  I am a bit of newbie to mandos, but not string instruments.
Bob

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## mrmando

Where do you live, Bob? There might be another L&H owner in your area who could bring you a cover to measure.

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## Jennifer

> They were going to give it to their five year old to play with!!!!!


Gah!  :Disbelief: 

Congrats on your wonderful find!

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## Starrshine

> Where do you live, Bob? There might be another L&H owner in your area who could bring you a cover to measure.


I live in a mountain town called Lake Arrowhead above San Bernardino, CA.  A mile above the L.A. smog  :Smile: 
Bob

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## Jim Garber

> I have read several times about the vulcanized fiber neck bar, but I'm not sure that that info is correct. I know for a fact that the Style B with the broke neck I have has got ebony in the neck. It has fiber elswhere as you said, but the neck bar is ebony. Has anyone seen a neck apart that actually has the fiber? I wonder if this is a case of bad info being reprinted enough that it is assumed to be true?


I could be wrong, but I believe that I have a catalog page from L&H catalog that described the structure of the neck. It also might be in Hubert's book but I will post this evening if I can find it. I will certainly be willing to be corrected on this count esp if I am guilty of spreading the wrong info -- perhaps I could be whipped with some vulcanized fibre.  :Smile:

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## delsbrother

> They were going to give it to their five year old to play with


That's how Thile started..   :Smile:

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## bobbyburns

Jim, I certainly was not trying to accuse anyone of trying to spread false info. I have heard/read that enough myself, that if I hadn't seen a few examples that I was pretty sure were ebony, and had a broken one that I am sure was ebony, then I would be repeating the vulcanized fiber thing myself. Also, I have heard about L&H mandos, with vulcan. fiber, having stability problems. The ones I have had experience with (almost sure are ebony) had necks that are straight as arrows. So Maybe they used fiber at one time and ebony at another? These mandos are so cool and sightings are so few and far between, and we know that catalogs are not always the most accurate source of construction details, so I like to hear from other folks who have actually had the things apart as often as possible. The peghead covering and the pickguards are definitely not the same material as the neck bar in the mandos that I think have ebony reinforcement bars.

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## Starrshine

Looking at my neck very closely under magnification, it doesn't look like wood.  I assumed it was when I first looked at it.  There are a few small area where the finish is gone and I can see no evidence of grain.  But the neck is really straight.
Bob

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## mrmando

So, is there anyone in or near the Inland Empire who can show Bob an L&H tailpiece in person?

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## Starrshine

> So, is there anyone in or near the Inland Empire who can show Bob an L&H tailpiece in person?


We have wonderful jams every Sunday up here in the mountains too  :Smile:   Great bunch of people at all levels
Bob

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...The tailpiece cover fits the standard Waverly cloud base. The cloud covers are easy to make...


Hey, that's the rail on my front porch! There was someone in the classifieds selling the tooling for bending and cutting the cloud covers a while back.

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## Paul Hostetter

> Hey, that's the rail on my front porch!


Dang, I _wondered_ where mine went. 




> There was someone in the classifieds selling the tooling for bending and cutting the cloud covers a while back.


They're pretty easy, because top panel is relatively small and flat; only the part that slides down over the base needs shaping. The much larger L&H top panel has this nice dome to it, plus it's heavy enough to engrave. It would be tempting to cast it, rather than trying to fabricate it.

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## Jim Garber

> I could be wrong, but I believe that I have a catalog page from L&H catalog that described the structure of the neck. It also might be in Hubert's book but I will post this evening if I can find it. I will certainly be willing to be corrected on this count esp if I am guilty of spreading the wrong info -- perhaps I could be whipped with some vulcanized fibre.


Well, I was certainly not wrong that I read it in their catalogs. Maybe they did change their construction over the years, but they do mention that the necks on the carved mandolins are reinforced with "strips of maples and vulcanized fibre" in both the pages I have from catalogs dated 1920 and as late as 1925. 

Here is the 1925 catalog page with a inset of the neck structure. I also scanned the tailpiece features from that page for those interested.

I can scan the page from the 1920 catalog if anyone is interested, but it basically says the same thing. BTW it is possible that we are confusing this "vulcanized fibre" with black rubber. I believe it is closer to bakelite.

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## Starrshine

Darn!  Would love to be able to read it!!  Way too small
Bob

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## Jim Garber

> Darn!  Would love to be able to read it!!  Way too small
> Bob


Bob: Click on the smaller images and they blow up so you can read them. I also cropped the two insets so you can read them even better.

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## Jim Garber

Here are two pages from the 1920 L&H catalog. I figured since this thread is really about the style C you can see what the specs are. At the bottom of the mandocello page is the details and descriptions of the neck construction.

Another oddity I noticed is that the catalog describes the tuning gear cover plate as ebony, not vulcanized fibre. Strange eh?

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## delsbrother

Jim, were there ever style B or C mandolas? Or were they always considered style As?

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## Paul Hostetter

> Bob: Click on the smaller images and they blow up so you can read them. I also cropped the two insets so you can read them even better.


If you open them individually in separate tabs or windows, they're even bigger. Like: full size. 

I'm reading that text which says vulcanite, and I'm looking at the actual instruments and it's ebony. Who am I to believe?

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## brunello97

> Hey, that's the rail on my front porch! There was someone in the classifieds selling the tooling for bending and cutting the cloud covers a while back.



This I would love to see.  Any clue, Mike, as to the contact on this?

Paul, any chance of a neck photo of the L+H you have in your shop?

thanks,

Mick

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## MikeEdgerton

> Any clue, Mike, as to the contact on this?


The classified ad was up a few months back, no idea who had it or if someone bought the stuff.




> It would be tempting to cast it, rather than trying to fabricate it.


I've always been surprised that nobody tried to cast an exact hole to hole replica that incorporated the entire cloud tailpiece in one unit.

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## Starrshine

> If you open them individually in separate tabs or windows, they're even bigger. Like: full size. 
> 
> I'm reading that text which says vulcanite, and I'm looking at the actual instruments and it's ebony. Who am I to believe?


I had the Monday morning fuzzies this morning, got it now.  Great pics!  Played the L & H a lot at my regular Sunday jam, played well, good tone.  Have some intonation problems, I will adjust the bridge.  Sure do like it :Grin: 
As far as casting the cloud, it would certainly be possible, but not practical.  It would be a pretty thin piece to cast and most likely give problems to somebody that didn't have industrial equipment.  The piece, of course, was stamped.  Again, not practical for a small run because of cost.  That leaves engraving as the only way.  An engraving machine with pantograph capabilities would be great; which is how letter engraving is done.
Bob

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## Jim Garber

Well, I have a wonderful sounding, early long scale A with a neck that had come apart. I have a feeling that maybe this one does have "vulcanite" not ebony. Now, if I could only convince Paul to take on the restoration...

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## Paul Hostetter

> Well, I have a wonderful sounding, early long scale A with a neck that had come apart. I have a feeling that maybe this one does have "vulcanite" not ebony. Now, if I could only convince Paul to take on the restoration...


The neck came apart?? You want to foist it on me? Eek!




> Paul, any chance of a neck photo of the L+H you have in your shop?


I posted a photo of the last one above, the other is here, I'll see what I can do. I can't easily post details like why it's ebony and not hard rubber. The current one has a slightly different fingerboard but, like the other, micro-bar-frets that are unplayably flush with a rutted board. Which is why it's here. 




> As far as casting the cloud, it would certainly be possible, but not practical. It would be a pretty thin piece to cast and most likely give problems to somebody that didn't have industrial equipment. The piece, of course, was stamped. Again, not practical for a small run because of cost. That leaves engraving as the only way. An engraving machine with pantograph capabilities would be great; which is how letter engraving is done.


The cloud doesn't need to be cast, it's a simple sheet metal thing. And some were in fact engraved. 

The L&H cover _could_ be cast—I've cast similar things with a simple lost-wax centrifuge— a on-ff. The trick is making a good wax model and sprueing it well. To me it's a tossup whether to shape the cover and engrave it, or make a good wax model and cast it. Both are a challenge.

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## brunello97

No worries, Paul, I was just looking for a close-up if possible.  No reason to doubt that it is wood upon actual inspection.  One could imagine what transpired between original design, ad-copy (and those are marvelous old ads, Jim--the text font and layout + graphics) and then down on the shop floor.  If I had the chance to tag items as 'Vulcanite' back in the 1920s, I'd do it as often as possible....  Certainly enough things I have drawn have been changed on the job site.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I am not expert on human-made materials but here is a wikipedia entry on Vulcanized fibre. Since it's main ingredient is cellulose from wood, it is possible that it could easily resemble ebony or dyed wood. It is not rubber. 




> Vulcanized fibre is a laminated plastic composed of only cellulose. The material is a tough, resilient, hornlike material that is lighter than aluminium, tougher than leather, stiffer than most thermoplastics. The newer wood-laminating grade of vulcanized fibre strengthens wood laminations used in skis, skateboards, support beams and as a sub-laminate under thin wood veneers.


More info on vulcanized fibre, notably:




> In 1859, Thomas Taylor filed a British patent application for a new product called vulcanized fiber; in 1871, Taylor obtained a U.S. patent. "Invention for (an) improved means of giving increased strength to paper," his original application began. Taylor's process transformed wood cellulose -- the raw material of paper -- into a hard laminate that could be used in a number of industrial and commercial applications. Sometimes called the "first plastic," vulcanized fiber has, over the years, been used to produce electrical insulators, musical instrument cases, steamer trunks, athletic knee and shoulder pads, and designer handbags.


Interesting, no? I thought that VF was a L&H advertising term, sounding like the future but it evidently was around for many years before L&H used it.

I wonder if there is any way to tell what the black stuff is in those necks or to distinguish between ebony and VF.

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## brunello97

This is pretty interesting, Jim, I had mistakenly assumed it was some type of rubbery material. (Which doesn't make much sense, on my part.)  One of my brothers is a plastics engineer down in LA and has had a long fascination with early types of celluloid plastics.  I'll pass this along to him. If it is that light, I guess one way then to distinguish it from ebony would be by weight if one could isolate the pieces, which would be pretty hard to do in a repair situation.   

Mick

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## delsbrother

Microscope?

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## jack traylor

> Yes, I stole it, I know!  He needed money, and it has found a loving home.  The back is Bird's eye maple.  I am a metal worker, so I feel confident that I could make a facsimile of the cover if I can get some pictures and measurements.  Anybody got one?
> Bob


 
I have the same instrument, in very good condition and like yours, it is missing the the cover. I would be interested in one if you find that you can manufacture it at a reasonable price.I could use any of a number of ornate tail pieces but the instrument deserves to be returned to its original condition. The Luthier who attends my guitars tells me that the value of my instrument, serial # 1600,far exceeds the $450 that you paid for yours.Well done. I also appreciate your rescue of the instrument as I have done the same with a couple of old Martins and put them into the hands of someone who will love and enjoy them. 
Be at peace,
Jack

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## Paul Hostetter

> I guess one way then to distinguish it from ebony would be by weight if one could isolate the pieces, which would be pretty hard to do in a repair situation.


Heh. I just checked the Style A in my shop and guess what! Its center strip is not ebony, it is fiberpoobah. 



The finish is worn off the back of the neck and it's right there, plain as day. You don't need an electron microscope to see and understand that texture. At its smoothest, ebony would still show some grain. 

Finish doesn't stick well to it, as seen here:



So, crow is on my dinner menu today. Alas, Buddhism takes a hit. 



OK, to another issue: here's a tailpiece cover:



The top is domed nicely, of a piece with the part that engages the base, and the "engraving" is actually die stamped.

Here's the inside, where you can see the 'echo' of the stamping. Engraving would never result in this look.



My take on this is that the original piece of .040" brass was cut to shape and then the top part was stamped first, leaving the dome and the design motif, and then the other part was bent down and formed. I think it was a sweet bit of die making that resulted in this.

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## Starrshine

Hmmmmmmn, you sure it is brass?  I don't see any evidence of plating wearing off in the photos.  I'd venture a guess at nickel silver as the material.  My experience with stamping machines would venture to say that they did the whole shape all at once.  I would also consider that I would make a replica out of nickel silver as there is no need to plate it afterwards.
Bob
PS  Thanks for posting the pictures, the neck looks just like mine and the lack of grain is a dead giveaway

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## Paul Hostetter

> Hmmmmmmn, you sure it is brass?  I don't see any evidence of plating wearing off in the photos. I'd venture a guess at nickel silver as the material.


You might be right. I usually assume things are stamped and then plated. This could indeed be nickel silver through and through. I'll ask the owner if I can do a probe somewhere on the inside. 




> My experience with stamping machines would venture to say that they did the whole shape all at once.  I would also consider that I would make a replica out of nickel silver as there is no need to plate it afterwards.


Indeed. But it's so much harder! I've worked with both, and nickel really puts up a fight.




> Thanks for posting the pictures, the neck looks just like mine and the lack of grain is a dead giveaway


You're right, it sure ain't wood down the middle. Not directly, anyway!

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## brunello97

Great stuff!  I have to remind myself that these L+H mandolins were from the '20s, i.e. post WW1 and that the country was going through the assimilation of a whole range of industrial processes ramped up for military production, auto (and airplane) industry,  construction etc.  A lot of technology was floating around all over.  Probably a fascinating time to be a maker of things. 

Mick

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## Starrshine

> You might be right. I usually assume things are stamped and then plated. This could indeed be nickel silver through and through. I'll ask the owner if I can do a probe somewhere on the inside.


btw, what is the strange looking fiber on the inside?  A scratch test might show a brass color, but I am not sure if there is a specific acid  test color for nickel.  I could look it up in one of my books.






> Indeed. But it's so much harder! I've worked with both, and nickel really puts up a fight


.
I do believe you have to resort to that old adage of getting a bigger hammer :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  


Bob

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## Paul Hostetter

The stuff on the inside is some kind of fabric, wool blanket maybe, padding of a sort, to keep strings from buzzing against the cover. Pretty common in mandolin tailpieces.

I'm waiting for permission to scratch the inside of the tpc somewhere. If it's not obviously brass under some plating, it's a safe bet it's some kind of nickel/white brass alloy.

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## Jim Garber

> So, crow is on my dinner menu today. Alas, Buddhism takes a hit.


Interesting... tho I would have to say that your crow is not a real crow but truly a vulcanized fibre-crow.

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## bobbyburns

OK, so now I'm back to thinking that the broken one I have is an oddity, in that I'm pretty sure it's ebony. It's a style "B" and the head was broke clear off the neck. It was splintered up pretty good. There were definite splinters in the black bar, and I'm sure it was ebony. It didn't look like Paul's picture at all. If it is not ebony, it would be the most convincing wood substitute that I have seen. I recently worked on a style "C" that I noticed has a lot thinner reinforcement in the center. It's still black, but it is about 1/16" thick. Now I'm wondering if maybe the fiber was a standard feature of the "A"s, and other things may have been standard in the "B" and "C" models? I'm going to start looking at these features a little closer now.

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## Jim Garber

> Now I'm wondering if maybe the fiber was a standard feature of the "A"s, and other things may have been standard in the "B" and "C" models? I'm going to start looking at these features a little closer now.


Please look at my catalog cuts for the L&H line (page 2 of this thread, postings #34 and 37). If we are to believe the catalogs, all the L&H carved line (A-C and mandola and mandocello) are specced with vulcanized fibre reinforced necks.

My Style A was broken off at the neck joint which evidently is very common on these and a design fault.

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## bobbyburns

I know the catalog says they are all reinforced the same, but I wonder for what time period, and just how accurate that is. The reinforcement in my B does not look like Paul's A, and I know the C I spoke of has a thinner reinforcement. Other C's I have seen, had necks that looked like my "B". I hope you all see that I'm not wanting to argue here, I'm just trying to put our heads together and figure out a few more details than we have about these mandos that you don't see every day. I have been in love with Lyon/Healy mandos for around 30 years (since I first saw the B with the broke head). In that time, really keeping an eye out for them, I have handled less than 20 of the carved mandos. I've studied the inside of several, but the B is the only one that I have actually had the neck in pieces. I have also noticed that there are a lot of differences from one instrument to the next. I wish I had started making notes about specific details of each instrument years ago. The quality was very consistent, but they were not all identical by any stretch. I think it's a little dangerous to apply one catalog description to the whole run of these instruments. 
 By the way, The guy that I fixed the broken "B" for several years ago. Last year, I was able to buy the mando from his family. It is still one of my favorites. I honestly think the "B" is way classier looking than the "A". The "A" being just a little gaudy for my taste.

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## Starrshine

Well, I gotta say this sure has turned into a very interesting an informative thread!  And it just makes me appreciate my little Pumpkin all the more.  I think one thing that needs to be pointed out, is that in the Wikipedia description of vulcanized fibre, they call it a laminate plastic composed of cellulose.  Since it is a lamination, could that be what you are interpreting as grain?  Interesting article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcanized_fibre
Bob

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## bobbyburns

I've seen my share of raw ebony lumber before, I've dug those splinters out of my hand a few times. If I hadn't seen the broken and splintered piece, I'd have never questioned it. I have also seen a pickguard broken, and I'm sure it is not the same material as is in my neck.
 My broke neck "B" also did not have the "Gibsonesque maple V" in it, as shown in the picture of Paul's "A" in pieces.

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## mrmando

Not to give away too much too soon, but it looks as though an L&H will be heading my way shortly ... and it does not have the tailpiece cover, so I am suddenly even more interested in this topic. 

In fact, in the photos I was sent, the tailpiece base that's on it doesn't look quite like the standard Walter Kirk tailpiece we've all been discussing. Page 125 of Hubert's book has a photo of a 1917 A with an earlier lyre-shaped tailpiece with a much simpler design ... I wonder if what I'm getting is a remnant of one of those tailpieces? When it gets here I'll post a photo. 

I'd guess a Waverly cloud is the best option for a replacement tailpiece until a repro of the Kirk comes along. Time to start keeping an eye out for one. Had a nice engraved one, but I sent it to Mandolin Bros. to put on another mandolin I have on consignment there.

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## mrmando

P.S. Here's a pic of that 1917 tailpiece ... the mandolin belongs to Kieron Seamons: 



P.P.S. Wow, even Mandolin Bros. makes a mistake now and then. They should know there's no way this Style A was made in 1912...

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## Jim Garber

> Not to give away too much too soon, but it looks as though an L&H will be heading my way shortly ... and it does not have the tailpiece cover, so I am suddenly even more interested in this topic.


Well, you didn't give too much away... you didn't tell us which model it is. Good luck on the tailpiece. I bought a Martin 2-15 on ebay that mistakenly had a L&H tailpiece on it in order to get one. Then, ironically, when I brought it to my luthier, he had two basket-case L&Hs and would have sold me a tp cover. Unfortunately, he sold both of those covers since then.

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## Dan Hoover

gee williker's..why can't i find these kind of deals??  :Grin:   i'm curious? is there a final verdict on this vulcanized rubber material? i wonder about bakelite,it was widely used up to WWII,in almost everything..i would think a lot of companies had their own name for it? cheers

Edit: oop's,just read up on vulcanized fibre..going with what the man say's..still??why can't i find these deal's?? cheers

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## Starrshine

> P.P.S. Wow, even Mandolin Bros. makes a mistake now and then. They should know there's no way this Style A was made in 1912...


I have to admit seeing what that one sold for shocked me.  Put some reality to what I really got, but it has found a good home.  I played it all Sunday afternoon at a jam.   An absolute joy  :Smile: 
Bob

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## bobbyburns

By The way, I have a friend with a L&H with the plating worn off most of the tailpiece cover. It is brass.

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## MandoNicity

Just discovered this thread.  Fascinating.  Welcome Starrshine.  

JR

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## mrmando

> I have to admit seeing what that one sold for shocked me.


That's a pretty good deal by Mandolin Bros. standards. They've sold 'em for more. The fact that this one has been refretted with jumbos reduces its collector appeal somewhat. Given that it's asymmetrical, I could believe that instrument is from 1921, but never 1912 ... that's gotta be a typo. They weren't introduced until 1917. The description also repeats the "vulcanized rubber" myth. 

The missing 27th fret might well have been pulled and the slot filled in when it was refretted. Dave Apollon had this done to some of his Gibsons ... it would enable you to play the high A (on the E string) or D (on the A string) at the 28th fret cleanly, at the expense of not being able to play the C# or G# just below them. So I wonder if that instrument could have belonged to Apollon? (If one could prove that it had, I daresay it'd be worth more than $3995.)

Seems to me we've discussed another "Special" L&H elsewhere in these pages, and we've also discussed at least one asymmetrical L&H with the longer 13.75" scale. Frustratingly, the Mandolin Bros. listing doesn't mention the scale length, but if it were longer, that could be what made it "Special." The fact that it's #29 yet 1921 or later strongly suggests that the "Special" instruments were numbered separately from the "Professional" instruments.




> Put some reality to what I really got, but it has found a good home.  I played it all Sunday afternoon at a jam.   An absolute joy 
> Bob


Well, the C is only about half as valuable as the A. Given that your C is minus its tailpiece cover, I'd put its value at $1,400-1,500. You hit a solid triple, but you might get thrown out trying to stretch it into an inside-the-park HR. With the tailpiece cover, the value is more like $1,800-2,000, or $2,200 if the economy recovers.

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## Starrshine

> Well, the C is only about half as valuable as the A. Given that your C is minus its tailpiece cover, I'd put its value at $1,400-1,500. You hit a solid triple, but you might get thrown out trying to stretch it into an inside-the-park HR. With the tailpiece cover, the value is more like $1,800-2,000, or $2,200 if the economy recovers.


Yes, I do understand the difference between the two models, just so pleased that such a good deal came my way.  In some ways I feel a bit sorry for the guy I bought it from as he could have pursued his sale better.  But I do also feel like I rescued it, what a shame it would have been to have given it to a five year old.  My mandolin journey has just begun, all because a lady at a jam borrowed my Guild to sing a song and handed me her mandolin!  Bought a cheap Rogue, which plays well, and now can't put the instrument down!  Feel privileged to own a fine instrument and will enjoy it for many years to come.  Sure don't have any desire to sell it.
Bob

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## bobbyburns

"The description also repeats the "vulcanized rubber" myth. "

I didn't mean to imply that I don't believe they used the fiber, I just don't think you should assume that one is fiber just based on a catalogue description. I don't believe they used it in all of them.

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## Jim Garber

> "The description also repeats the "vulcanized rubber" myth. "
> 
> I didn't mean to imply that I don't believe they used the fiber, I just don't think you should assume that one is fiber just based on a catalogue description. I don't believe they used it in all of them.


Bobby... I didn't even know what you were referring to at the top of your quote... now I realize that you were noting in the Mandolin Bros description that Martin linked to. There are a few sub threads flying around in this thread so it might make it less confusing to be specific.

As to catalogue accuracy -- I agree with you wholeheartedly. Catalogues were not always consistent, but the evidence is out there. We just have to determine whether they used that plastic or not and whether they used it consistently or replaced it with ebony at some time or another.

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## mrmando

> "The description also repeats the "vulcanized rubber" myth. "
> 
> I didn't mean to imply that I don't believe they used the fiber, I just don't think you should assume that one is fiber just based on a catalogue description. I don't believe they used it in all of them.


We're accustomed to the term "vulcanized rubber" because when Charles Goodyear developed the "vulcanization" process, rubber was the first substance he applied it to. You might have heard of Goodyear; he had a tire shop or something. Vulcanization is a chemical process: add sulfur to rubber, and the rubber gets harder and tougher. 

Vulcanized fiber, on the other hand, is made by adding zinc chloride to cotton rag paper. However, I think that when most people encounter the term "vulcanized," they immediately want to fill in the blank after it with "rubber." Vulcanized fiber isn't as well known, perhaps because unlike Goodyear's rubber, it hasn't had a century and a half of advertising behind it.

Either substance -- the rubber or the fiber -- can be made hard and strong enough that it resembles ebony. I wouldn't know how to tell them apart. But the catalogs always say "fibre," not "rubber." In the absence of any hard evidence to the contrary, I submit that when people say L&H mandolins contain rubber, they are succumbing to the sort of fill-in-the-blank confusion I'm describing above.

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## Nat

The general rule for quickly determining the scale-length of a Lyon and Healy is to see if the 12th fret inlay markers are above the top tip of the pickguard (long-scale) or below it (short-scale).

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## delsbrother

> just so pleased that such a good deal came my way.  In some ways I feel a bit sorry for the guy I bought it from as he could have pursued his sale better.  But I do also feel like I rescued it, what a shame it would have been to have given it to a five year old.


I probably should let this go, since there is real information in this thread and I don't want it shut down by harping on it. But I'll just say if you _really_ feel bad about the great grandchild of the original owner being robbed of his inheritance because his parents were ignorant of the value of esoteric vintage musical instruments, instead of patting yourself on the back for "rescuing" it, you could always anonymously send the child some money during the holidays. Or perhaps if you manage to repop those tailpieces, maybe give the family a little taste of your profits. You made it sound earlier like the family could really use the help. Just some ideas for Karmic balance, since you keep bringing it up. YMMV  :Smile:

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## Starrshine

> I probably should let this go, since there is real information in this thread and I don't want it shut down by harping on it. But I'll just say if you _really_ feel bad about the great grandchild of the original owner being robbed of his inheritance because his parents were ignorant of the value of esoteric vintage musical instruments, instead of patting yourself on the back for "rescuing" it, you could always anonymously send the child some money during the holidays. Or perhaps if you manage to repop those tailpieces, maybe give the family a little taste of your profits. You made it sound earlier like the family could really use the help. Just some ideas for Karmic balance, since you keep bringing it up. YMMV


Just so I can set the record straight here, let me say that their intentions was to give it to the five year old as a *TOY* at five years old, so, yes, I rescued it.  These people were satisfied with what they received for the mando as they had no personal use for it and could see that it was going to a good home.  I understand karma very well and pass things along to those that need all the time.  This morning one of my workers told me that his child's electric amp broke and I gave him one of mine.  Think what you want of me, but those people were satisfied and so am I.  I did not buy the mando to resell, I bought it to play.
Bob

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## JEStanek

If everyone was happy and the mandolin was rescued from a 5 year old boy (I know what my 5 year old did to things) then great.  Congratulations Bob on the good find and rescue of a great mandolin.

Consider the guy who discovered he bought $200MM worth of Ansel Adams plate negatives at a garage sale 20 years ago for like $45.  He just bought some old stuff and it turns out to be worth a lot.

Imagine if you didn't have the $450 they wanted so they gave it to the kid anyway...

Jamie

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## delsbrother

I only posted because you expressed "shock" at how little you had given. That's all. As I said, YMMV.

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## Jim Garber

I have been wheeling and dealing instruments for years. I have bought low and sold high and bought high and sold low. It all evens out.

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## mrmando

> Well, you didn't give too much away... you didn't tell us which model it is.


Well, now I'm telling.

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