# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  We need to keep this quiet

## MikeEdgerton

I shudder at the thought of this getting out.

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## Psyberbilly

I don't know which is more disturbing , the part of the add that is circled , or the fact that they offer it WITH A PICKUP !!!! That's just wrong on SO many levels ......

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## Ed Goist

> ...snip...they offer it WITH A PICKUP !!!!...snip...


Just imagine...  :Disbelief:

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## journeybear

Just think - if John Sebastian had had an electric back in the day ... "Do You Believe In Magic" would have been _very_ different! (For one, we could have _heard_ him ...)

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## JEStanek

I'm envisioning Jean Ritchie in Kiss makeup an autoharp and that stack!  Horrifying but Halloween is coming.  I have the greatest admiration for Jean, too.

Jamie

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## EdSherry

Mike -- Oh, I dunno.  Maybe the world SHOULD know about this dire threat to both human sanity and musical integrity!    (I've been to "bluegrass" jams where an a*t*h*rp player has showed up ,,, though the jam sure didn't last long after that.)

PS -- Jamie, why Jean Ritche?  What about Mother Maybelle Carter?  (An even more shudder-inducing concept if I ever heard one.)  

Of course, Maybelle's been dead for 33 years, which might make the Kiss makeup appropriate (in some perverted way that I don't really want to contemplate when I'm sober ...)

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## JEStanek

It was 'cause Maybelle is deceased.  I try and keep my zombie love off here and on FB.

Jamie

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## MikeEdgerton

That does it. I'm here to admit that I already own that autoharp. I'm gonna go figure out how to play Foggy Mountain Breakdown on it then I'm going to work on Rawhide.

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## Marty Henrickson

Mike, maybe you should get a fuzz pedal to go with that.  "Wildwood Flower", indeed.

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## MikeEdgerton

I do have a fuzz pedal laying around. Hmmm.

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## Joe Mendel

I think it would sound much bigger with a chorus AND a fuzz.

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## allenhopkins

Sebastian _did_ have a pickup on his Autoharp for _Do You Believe In Magic;_ looks like he was playing into a Fender, though, not a Marshall (and you can hear him):



I'd post Drew Smith vids just to prove that Autoharp can, in the right hands, be a great instrument in a variety of genres, but doubt that I'd change any minds.  So I'll just leave you with Kilby Snow:

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## journeybear

Barely.  :Frown:  He (or the sound guy, actually) could have done better. This would have been nice for him to have, is all I'm saying.  :Whistling: 

I'm one you don't have to convince about the magic of the autoharp. I got hipped to it a long time ago. I have to wonder why the copywriter on that ad thought to use the phrase "bluegrass autoharp," as it has had little use in the genre as far as I know, and also I don't see how this model is more suitable for bluegrass usage than others. The term "clueless" comes to mind.  :Grin: 

And Jamie - never mind Jean Ritchie. I want to hear Bryan Bowers burn it up on one of these babies!

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## Ivan Kelsall

I got a promo.e-mail from Janet Davis this morning re.the Autoharp ( i buy my strings from her). I love Autoharp & was introduced to the sound of it years back,by Bill Clifton when he lived in the UK & also by Mike Seeger - both great players.I have a great LP featuring Bill Clifton,Mike Seeger,Mike Auldridge & Tom Gray with terrific renditions of very well known tunes.
   I know Mike's thread title is very 'tongue in cheek' - but i love 'em, http://youtu.be/6ohFTzsSIsM
                                                                                           Ivan :Wink:

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## Marty Henrickson

> snip....I have to wonder why the copywriter on that ad thought to use the phrase "bluegrass autoharp," as it has had little use in the genre as far as I know, and also I don't see how this model is more suitable for bluegrass usage than others......snip


It probably has more "bark", "thump", and a "woody" tone.

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## journeybear

> Mike, maybe you should get a fuzz pedal to go with that.





> I do have a fuzz pedal laying around. Hmmm.


You're too late. It's been done.



Also, there was something of this going on back in the psychedelic era, from Roger and Wendy [Penney], aka Bermuda Triangle Band:







And there was also this - not exactly rock autoharp. but autoharp in a rock context, mixed front and center. Watch these on youtube and read the notes:





Those days are long gone, of course, and the bluegrass community need not fear any intrusion from these gentle souls. But it's nice to learn that at least some people made the effort to explore these possibilities. It helps me hold out hope that something similar may have been done with electric mandolin back in the day, other than by Seals And Crofts, which will someday be rediscovered.  :Mandosmiley:

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## Dale Ludewig

I know that this is a constantly lurking fear, but what (just thinkin') if Jack White had one of these things?  And donned a paisley granny dress?  Perhaps to do a version of Dust in the Wind?
Perhaps Dr. Eugene could weigh in.

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## Denny Gies

I have been trying to sell a set of "Bluegrass Spoons" for years and, no matter how low I set the price I have had no takers.  No amp though.

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## mandopete

Too, too funny!

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## Ed Goist

That _Crimson and Clover_ video Rocks the House! Thanks JB.
Dale, I've already e-mailed the link to this video to Jack White.

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## Mike Bunting

One more.

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## Dennis Ladd

This is great.

As an Autoharp player of long standing I have to say I never thought of it as a bluegrass instrument ... though Kilby Snow can make it just about sound like one. What a player!

My favorite Autoharp-at-a-bluegrass-jam story: A fellow was strumming along with the jam on his A'harp. I knew him well enough to ask if I could play it on the next tune. I did (rhythm only - no fabulous solo!). When the song was done I handed it back with thanks and he said, "I noticed you changed chords! A lot!"

Yep. I did. Used all three chords and in their proper order. :Wink: 

My main A'harp influence when I started: Mike Seeger. He plays bluegrass, too, you know.

Dennis

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## catmandu2

I've never been a big autoharp guy, but I can see why folks like them--for personal playing. they make a nice sound.

Greg Boyd's former partner--Pete Barberio--builds some very fine and beautiful autoharps; last week he showed me a recently finished instrument he built for himself--exotic woods and ornamental appointments.  If Dennis and Ivan and other devotees are interested in these high-end, elegant autoharps, you might check out Pete's builds here in Missoula.

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## Dale Ludewig

Hey, don't get me wrong.  I think they're fine, autoharps in general.  I used to have one.  I can't figure out where it went over the years.  It got away from me somehow.  I doubt I ever got much past You Are My Sunshine or something like that on it.  But it was fun.  Catmandu, that is a beautiful looking instrument.  But, is it a banjo killer?  That being, of course, the point of any instrument's need to be.   :Smile:

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## JeffD

:Laughing:

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## catmandu2

> ...banjo killer?  That being, of course, the point of any instrument's need to be.



Ha...them's feudin words course




Yes, I had a couple of AHs over the years...never did play them though.  My last one is currently residing in Pete's shop--included in various trades...a little, lightweight Rhythm King or some such--those standard little vintage ones...mentioned it as an after thought, but Pete likes it...(well you never know about those autoharp, hippie types?... :Wink: )

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## Dale Ludewig

Yeah, well.........
Say, they mispelled my name in that picture.

Autoharps and mountain dulcimers.  They take out the bad notes one way or 'nother.  They'd do it to mandolins except then we'd need to use capos.

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## allenhopkins

I think I have seven Autoharp-type instruments.  Three are old Zimmermann models; a five-bar from the original Philadelphia shop, and an eight-bar and a "Model De Luxe," with the shifters so you can make 15 chords from six bars, from Dolgeville.  Then a Schmidt standard Model 73 12-bar "black box" from the 1940's -- you can tell by the extra high "D" string -- and a Schmidt "Guitaro" 15-bar guitar-shaped one from the 1970's.  Plus, two very nice small-builder ones: a rosewood Autorinoharp (built by Mike Autorino) from the 1970's, and a Tom Morgan 15-bar from, I'm guessing, late '70's-early '80's.

I love the sound of the Autoharp, and am only sorry that other instruments have sorta "crowded out" Autoharp from my playing.  Keep telling myself I need to get back to it, but other things keep intruding.  Since I watched Mike Seeger play his Schmidt Appalachian model back in the '60's, I've enjoyed the sound and the act of hugging it to the chest while playing it.

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## Joe Mendel

I'll admit to liking the Autoharp as well, I have a few of them lying around and actually pick one up once in a while. There's a local gal, Alex Usher http://www.melbay.com/authors.asp?author=991 who can do amazing things with an Autoharp. If I remember correctly she didn't start playing it until she was well into her 70s. I've had the pleasure of jamming with her in years past, she always makes it sound really good. She makes it look easy too, which partially explains why I own some, as with all instruments, it's not that easy to play well.

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## Marty Henrickson

I really enjoyed the Kilby Snow and Bryan Bowers videos, and "Lost Worlds" is okay, although I probably would've enjoyed it more in a more, ahem, "enhanced" era of my life.

I wouldn't mind adding an autoharp to my collection, though probably not amplified.

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## Psyberbilly

> It probably has more "bark", "thump", and a "woody" tone.


I agree wholeheartedly , but I have been having problems with the stretch and getting my G chop chord to sound clear on my harp . Maybe I should upgrade. ( Oh no , HAS rears it's ugly head ! If I beat it , will that make me a HAS been ?) . But that's another thread I guess . 

Of course this ad is a case of false advertising , this can't be a blurgrass autoharp , as it is painfully obvious from the photo that it possesses no scroll . I am sure there are ways to make it sound more "bluegrassy" ( let's see , 18 pairs of Scruggs tuners would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of .....)

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...But, is it a banjo killer?...


No, but it would probably kill a BG jam  :Smile:

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## Paul Kotapish

When I went to my first bluegrass festival back in '72, I didn't really know the idiom particularly well, and I assumed that all of the musicians on stage there in Watermelon Park fell under the bluegrass rubric. There were several acts with autoharps, including Bryan Bowers (in the video above), who really got the crowd going with that thing. Moreover, _Will the Circle Be Unbroken_ came out that same year and was a big mainstream "bluegrass" hit, and Mother Maybelle played autoharp on a few tracks on there, too. 

It might have been fleeting and tangential, but for a while there it seemed like autoharps really were bluegrass instruments. 

A few years after that, I got a job in an acoustic-instrument shop where my first task was refurbishing, restringing, and tuning up about 30 vintage Oscar Schmidts, and my enthusiasm for the autoharp waned considerably. Still, a well-played autoharp makes a very sweet accompaniment for mandolin tunes, whatever you call the idiom.

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## journeybear

> ... my first task was refurbishing, restringing, and tuning up about 30 vintage Oscar Schmidts, and my enthusiasm for the autoharp waned considerably.


I feel for you. I can only imagine - and even then, just barely. The horror!  :Disbelief: 

I have an autoharp, found it at a yard sale, and the seller actually gave me money to take it!  :Grin:  Howzat, you say?  :Confused:  Well, I was mostly interested in a bunch of CDs, and while we were settling on a price, I mentioned the autoharp (unstrung, BTW). He knocked a few bucks off the price of the CDs if I would take the autoharp off his hands, so I did. When I got home I started looking up the price of a set of strings ... Long story short, it has gone from taking up a bit of room at his place to taking up a bit of room at mine. That's OK - it's black, and looks nice in the music area.  :Wink:

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## Dale Ludewig

Oh no, for kripes sake.  A naked autoharp?  Gak!  Some things are forgiveable.  Some things aren't.  JB, I only hope you hang it on a wall and put a little mirror into the "soundhole".   :Smile:

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## jschall84

> But, is it a banjo killer?  That being, of course, the point of any instrument's need to be.


Sure is, just gotta throw it hard enough  :Smile:

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## allenhopkins

> ...Still, a well-played autoharp makes a very sweet accompaniment for mandolin tunes, whatever you call the idiom.


*A Drew Smith gallery:*

Well-played Autoharp and mandolin, with Mike Resnick



Bluegrass Autoharp, with Roger Sprung (shortly after this vid was shot, I believe they actually got in tune with each other)



I've done workshops with Drew the last three years at New England Folk Festival (NEFFA) -- great guy, great player...

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## journeybear

> Oh no, for kripes sake.  A naked autoharp?  Gak!  Some things are forgiveable.  Some things aren't.  JB, I only hope you hang it on a wall and put a little mirror into the "soundhole".


It's _leaning_ against the wall, right next to the record player. A place of honor, actually, two examples of outmoded music production technology. Saving it (both, really) from the dustbin is enough. But perhaps I will dress it up a bit. It's a Zimmermann, with matte black finish. I think I have a strip of red and black lace around here somewhere, which if properly placed could be just the thing.  :Wink:

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## mandolino maximus

I wonder what the Vivaldi mandolin concerto sounds like on auoharp with a full autoharp orchestra.  And where can I get an autocello.?




Probably have to wait an eternity for an answer to these important questions.

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## TonyP

yup, just when I thought it I'd never do another AHgard, this happened, thanks to Peter Lee

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## MikeEdgerton

You know, if you got the autoharp burning you could probably fry burgers on that thing  :Smile:

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## journeybear

> But, is it a banjo killer?  That being, of course, the point of any instrument's need to be.


Except for banjos, though.  :Wink:  If banjos start turning on each other and trying to kill each other ... oh, the carnage! And can you imagine the horrible cacaphony that would ensue?  :Disbelief:  I know there are some who can barely (or not even) tolerate the sound of a banjo being played well (or believe this can be done), but the sound of banjos _killing_ banjos? Oh! The horror, the horror ...  :Crying:

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## Geordie

> banjo killer


This made me think of this comic;

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## Mandolin Mick

:Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

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## Spencer

I used to play bluegrass with The Gordons a long time ago, and Roberta plays an autoharp, and she makes it work very well with their music, thank you.  I'm afraid the autoharp is getting an undeservedly bad rap here.  

Spencer

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## journeybear

Rap ... hmmm ... Anyone know of autoharp being used in rap? It fits well enough into folk, bluegrass, pop, and country ... but rap? That would be innovative use. Wide open for opportunity, methinks.  :Smile:

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## Dale Ludewig

At the risk of sounding haughty, Spencer, I don't quite know what to say.  To quote Tom Hanks from some baseball movie (about girls playing baseball, no less!) "there's no crying in baseball".  There's no autoharp in 'real' bluegrass.  Well, maybe in Denmark....  or that side of the pond.   :Wink:

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## Spencer

> There's no autoharp in 'real' bluegrass.  Well, maybe in Denmark....  or that side of the pond.


The Gordon's are from your backyard, Sparta, IL.  I played with them when I lived in Champaign. Nobody I know over here plays autoharp.

Spencer

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## Dale Ludewig

I stand corrected.   :Smile:

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## journeybear

On the other hand, no one over here plays nyckelharpa. AFAIK.  :Wink: 



PS: Of course, I know that's not true, and also that the instrument is Swedish in origin, but this is comedy, not musicology.

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## Dave Greenspoon

I'm thinking Dueling Autoharps...at twenty paces!

And also..."flower shaped soundhole"???  Am I the only Member of the Tribe who saw a six-pointed Magen David there?

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## Elliot Luber

I kinda like autoharp, but I tend to agree with what was said earlier that it's more of a personal instrument than an ensemble piece. Of course, rules were mean to be broken.

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## JeffD

A good autoharpist at a sparsely attended jam can really fill out the sound.

And of course they are great on OT.

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## journeybear

> And also..."flower shaped soundhole"???  Am I the only Member of the Tribe who saw a six-pointed Magen David there?


Dude! Good eye! I know *I* didn't look too closely at it, attention diverted by the verbiage.





> A good autoharpist at a sparsely attended jam can really fill out the sound.


So can a good mandolinist.  :Smile:  But then I admit to a certain bias. Unabashedly.  :Mandosmiley: 

I was thinking about the "auto-" part of its name, and how its automatic sound production is achieved without touching the strings at all, if one is using fingerpicks. Perhaps the resulting music is a bit sterile for some, or this aspect is subconsciously perceived as distant. Also, such human-sounding elements as vibrato and string bending are not permitted. Maybe its music could be more deeply felt if it were possible to incorporate human touch into its making, say with fingers on frets, so that the interplay between ringing tones and bent notes were enabled. But then, one would have ... a mandolin!  :Mandosmiley:

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## allenhopkins

> I was thinking about the "auto-" part of its name, and how its automatic sound production is achieved without touching the strings at all, if one is using fingerpicks. Perhaps the resulting music is a bit sterile for some, or this aspect is subconsciously perceived as distant. Also, such human-sounding elements as vibrato and string bending are not permitted. Maybe its music could be more deeply felt if it were possible to incorporate human touch into its making, say with fingers on frets, so that the interplay between ringing tones and bent notes were enabled...


A good Autoharp player can evoke as much emotion and personal expressiveness from his/her instrument, as any good musician can from any instrument.  The pianist's fingers never touch strings, but can't we hear emotion from Rubinstein, Joplin -- or Fats Waller, or even Jerry Lee Lewis? 

When Charles Zimmermann patented the Autoharp in the 1880's, he perceived it as a device to popularize his "simplified" new music notation method, and to enable anyone to play music without having to learn complicated instrumental techniques.  Alfred Dolge, and later the Oscar Schmidt Co., continued this perspective; instruments were sold door-to-door, to "average Joes and Joans" without musical training.  It was a democratic (small "d") instrument, and I've often called it "the ancestor of the radio" -- push a button and make music!  Unfortunately for the Autoharp, tuning one is a bit harder than tuning your radio, so many of those door-to-door sales quickly went to the attic, from which we now may exhume them and play them a century later.

Though there was a real attempt to use the Autoharp for "serious" music in the late 19th century, the "rise" of the instrument -- to the extent it's ever "risen" -- was based on folk/country performers like Ernest Stoneman, Maybelle and Sarah Carter, Kilby Snow, Ken & Neriah Benfield, etc.  Later, modern Autoharp players like Bryan Bowers, Evo Bluestein and Mike Seeger brought the instrument to folk audiences, and there arose a thriving "under-the-radar" community of Autoharpists, with magazines, recordings, conventions etc.  Builders like Mike Autorino, Tom Morgan, and the contemporary George Orthey, Pete d'Aigle etc. are building finely made instruments, and Oscar Schmidt and others are providing the obligatory Asian-built mid-range 'harps.

I got started playing Autoharp after hearing Mike Seeger in the '60's, and my first public gig was at the Denver Folklore Center's open mic night in 1966, playing _Victory Rag_ on a recently-purchased Schmidt Appalachian model.  Dismissing the instrument as a mere "strum-strum" that clogs up your local jam, is like dismissing mandolin because all you've heard is someone flailing away on chords without knowing how to play melody.  Go to YouTube, search for Kilby Snow or Drew Smith or Bryan Bowers, and listen to what the Autoharp is capable of doing.  And, IMHO, that includes bluegrass -- in some contexts.  Dig out the original Country Gentlemen recording of _New Freedom Bell_ and listen to Mike Seeger's 'harp break.  Or check out Flatt & Scruggs' _Songs of the Famous Carter Family_ LP with Maybelle sitting in on some tunes.

The Cafe is seldom at its best when we become dismissive or mocking.  _Mea culpa,_ sometimes, but I try to catch myself...

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## catmandu2

> The Cafe is seldom at its best when we become dismissive or mocking.  _Mea culpa,_ sometimes, but I try to catch myself...


I don't mind so much when folks make sport...but find it humorous when such folks are themselves defensive  :Crying:   (I've been villified for being "contrarian" by self-professed "contrarians"  :Laughing: )

What were you doing in Denver around that time, if I may ask?  Ft. Carson, BAC?

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## MikeEdgerton

I played for a few years with a guy that could take a break on an autoharp that would put a lot of guitarists to shame but I still don't think of it as a bluegrass instrument, no matter what the shape of the sound hole is. The instrument can be mastered like every other instument. The autoharp can be beautiful and doesn't have to be played by someone that has no ability.

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## ilovemyF9

Respect all instruments, even the Banjo; I lost count, over the years, on the amount of times electric Guitar players mocked the Mando.  

P.S. Thanks Allen for the Kilby clip!

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## AlanN

May have already been mentioned (maybe even by me)...I ain't about to look through this thread...but FW recorded a couple of catchy a.h. pieces on his most excellent eponymously-titled Rounder 0007 release from the mid 70's. One was called Dance Of The Sandcrab.

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## allenhopkins

> ...What were you doing in Denver around that time, if I may ask?  Ft. Carson, BAC?


Company A, 2d Battalion (Mechanized), 61st Infantry, 5th Infantry Division, Ft. Carson CO.  Motor pool clerk, 81mm mortar squad leader, company clerk (Sp5).  Regular habitue of Harry Tuft's *Denver Folklore Center* on weekends, making friends with Dave Ferretta, Mary "Sunshine" Stribling, Toad Hannah, Jan Alexander (who taught me _Norwegian Wood_ on the Autoharp), Peaches Naylor, other Denver folkies of that time.  Still own a Muse (by Ode) banjo I bought there in 1967, just a bit before my active duty was over and I went back to NY.

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## catmandu2

I have an old (pre CA) Christy plectrum banjo (although I didn't hit CO until 1980)

Ah the good ol days, eh?  Our kids are still living down there...but I fled the congestion 10 years ago

(say, did that CD make it through the mail?)

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## Mandolin Mick

I knew somebody who played autoharp as the accompaniment to their singing like a guitar and did it very effectively; but it wasn't Bluegrass. 

I don't see the autoharp as a Bluegrass instrument ... but it would probably work better than say ... a glockenspiel ...  :Wink:

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## Spencer

I don't think anybody considers autoharp a bluegrass instrument either.  What I experienced was playing in a bluegrass band where the autoharp was used as a rhythm instrument, and it was actually a nice supplement, with the ringing chords painting a sort of background color of tones, if I can use a painting analogy.  I can't see it as a lead instrument.

Isn't it about time this thread slowly faded away?

Spencer

Spencer

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## MikeEdgerton

Is there any particular reason it should fade away? For what it's worth, when someone says a thread should end it usually goes on and on.  :Smile:

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## journeybear

> The Cafe is seldom at its best when we become dismissive or mocking.  _Mea culpa,_ sometimes, but I try to catch myself...


As do I. Indeed, I usually measure my words very carefully in such instances. But I believe I am entitled to use humor to make a point or bring aspects of a topic into a discussion, especially when said discussion, topic, and/or aspect is humorous to begin with. That said, your argument isn't with me. As I stated in Post#13,




> I'm one you don't have to convince about the magic of the autoharp. I got hipped to it a long time ago.


and I have not wavered from this. In fact, I have spent a fair amount of time searching the web for usage of electric autoharp (which was part of the OP), posting a few examples, and describing my enjoyment of some of them.

IMO, sometimes the Café _is_ at its best when posters mock, as through this process topics may be seen in a different light. And if someone is inspired to defend the object of mockery, whether actual or merely perceived as such, the resultant information, informed by passion, is often compelling. That seems to have been the case here, as your response to my post extols the virtues of the instrument to an extent that you might not have otherwise. I am not an advocate of the devil's advocate approach to furthering discussion, and have taken some to task for using this method haphazardly, but I am in favor of exploring as many aspects of an issue from as many viewpoints as possible. That said, in my post which you found unsettling, I was posing some questions about aspects of the autoharp, albeit humorously, which I thought might help explain why so many people (other than me, it seems necessary to reiterate) find the instrument annoying. I chose to take my argument to a logical conclusion of an absurd nature to show how absurd this conclusion was, to show how absurd blind acceptance of revilement of the autoharp by  mandolinists is when the instruments have much in common, but mostly for fun. I believe I have a right to concoct flights of fancy here, and if not, then a sorry state of dry erudition will ensue. 

Of course the human touch as stated in my post is not that important. We use picks in sound production, don't we? Any instrument can be very expressive when masterfully played, or even just played well. Even banjos, bagpipes, accordions, musical saws, trombones, etc etc etc  (fill in your favorite least favorite instrument here [ __________________________ ]). It is the playing and the context that make the difference, more than the instrument itself.

My problem with the OP isn't with the autoharp, but with the way this one is advertised. And your problem isn't (or shouldn't be) with me. You might want to take to task those who advocate various forms of physical harm to the instrument. 

And Spencer - threads die more often from apathy than anything else, on their own rather than by outside action, when people lose interest in them or run out of things to say. We haven't quite got there yet. Almost, perhaps, but not quite.  :Smile:

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## AlanN

And if nothing else, you can quote your very own post and write a few paragraphs about that!  :Wink:

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## journeybear

I believe I am entitled to defend and/or explain what I have said. And while there are those who say that if a joke has to be explained it couldn't have been very funny, there are also those who just don't get it. And believe it or not, I don't like talking about myself as a rule - I really don't, regardless of evidence to the contrary - but if I believe my experiences can be instructive, informative, entertaining, or - especially - useful to others, I will, knowing I am making myself available for mockery, abuse, and misinterpretation. So it goes. People are not perfect, and often revel in their and others' imperfections.

I said what I said, thought it was pretty good and worth sharing, and if one person objected, and said why he did and at length and with well-considered verbiage, that doesn't make me wrong. Even if I agree with him. I believe there was some misinterpretation at play, which I felt necessary to dispel. No big whup.

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## catmandu2

> ... and have taken some to task for using this method haphazardly,


JB is on the case!   :Wink:

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## journeybear

Eh.  :Disbelief:   :Confused:   :Mad:   :Whistling:   :Sleepy: 

Anyway ... they're out there ...





Look at this rig! Wish he had just played it. Probably sounds monstrous, if he can control all that.



Maybe not the most advanced songwriting, but he gets a good rock tone out of the instrument. A variety of them, actually.



This is more atmospheric, ambient, mellow - an autoharp and drums duo.



A bunch of vidclips featuring this player and singer. Note also - MC, on a wall hanger.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Is there any particular reason it should fade away?


Well, then again, maybe there is.  :Cool:

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## AlanN

:Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

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## catmandu2

Talk about advocating for the devil haphazardly..._six_ autoharp vids?

(I gotta say thank you [not] for that Billy Nayer Show vid...what a charming performer...an example of how autoharps can be used for evil)

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## journeybear

> Well, then again, maybe there is.


 :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing:  *

Oh, it will, soon as I stop posting these.  :Wink:  Still, it is interesting to see people have tried various ways of playing electric autoharp. I'm still partial to Bermuda Triangle, old hippie that I am, but that kid from Tiny Mountains got a good rock tone out of his axe. So not only is it possible (theoretical) it's doable (practical). Desirable? You decide.  :Grin: 

Personally, I'd rather explore pushing the boundaries with electric mandolin. I like bending notes. AFAIK autoharps are subtractive - ie, they select notes by dampening the unwanted ones. If a reverse apparatus were devised, one that fretted notes when a bar was pressed, presumably pressing it harder would bend notes. I don't really se how that would work; just spitballing here. But it did look like the guy in The Billy Nayer Show was going to bend strings in his solo, though it was just fingerpicking.

cat - thou dost misinterpret. These are examples of electric autoharp music. _Trying_ to bring the discussion back to topic from the _ad hominem_ derail. You dig, now?

* So, I am not the only one to quote himself. But then, might as well utilize all the resources available.  :Wink:

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## Dale Ludewig

JB, that reverse apparatus you're speaking of- sounds like a piano...

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## catmandu2

> cat - thou dost misinterpret. These are examples of electric autoharp music. _Trying_ to bring the discussion back to topic from the _ad hominem_ derail. You dig, now?


It depends of course on how one defines devil's advocacy

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## journeybear

Well, yes ...  :Whistling:  ... but I was imagining something the size of an autoharp, with similar action.

I still think one main aspect of the autoharp that keeps it from really rocking out is it produces chords. Unless your style melds chords and melody (a la Townshend for instance), rocking out this way is difficult. Melody on an autoharp, AFAIK, is produced by plucking while a chord is open, and unless your gear is tweaked to where that sounds righteous, it is likely to fall short of this. If that is your intent, of course.  :Smile:

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## journeybear

> It depends of course on how one defines devil's advocacy


Now, are you taking the devil's side here? Or is this contrariness for contrariness's sake? Or is _that_ question a contrarian one by nature? Or is it contrary to expound a contrary point of view to being contrary and thus be in agreement? AAAHHH!!!  :Crying: 

If it's only me interested in finding examples of good electric autoharp music, then maybe this thread is indeed dying. I do have other things to do which aren't getting done. If you do want to search more, feel free. That one from The Billy Nayer Show was the least annoyingly self-serious, the ones featuring Clare Hampshire on electric autoharp in a band bury her in the mix, I didn't see another interesting one from Tiny Mountain, and so on, but please look for yourself. I didn't look too hard for bluegrass autoharp, another main aspect of the OP. My main point is/was, there is stuff out there. Have a look-see.

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## catmandu2

> Now, are you taking the devil's side here? Or is this contrariness for contrariness's sake? Or is _that_ question a contrarian one by nature? Or is it contrary to expound a contrary point of view to being contrary and thus be in agreement? AAAHHH!!!


Well, I was thinking of Jeff.  But you _are_ my favorite MC bloviator   :Wink:

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## journeybear

Jeff? When did he ring in?  :Confused: 

As to bloviation - nice to know I'm somebody's favorite something around here.  :Grin:  I think that's misplaced, though, because while I may go on at length at times, I generally mean what I say, and try to be as clear as possible. Besides, I thought you were your _own_ favorite bloviator.  :Disbelief: 

But while Mike does have the power and perhaps desire to close this thread, I hope he doesn't, as there has been some interesting discussion here, and I am still waiting for more input from Allen. He probably has better things to do, as do most of us, for sure.  :Wink:  But Mike did start this thread, after all, with a humorous title and intent, so while such frivolity has taken a not unexpected course, he is going to do what he is going to do. But I've seen far worse. This thread is clearly not about to fade out from apathy. But I do wish people would spend more time looking for more autoharp videos. That would serve some useful purpose, while personal _ripostes_ do not.

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## catmandu2

> Jeff? When did he ring in? 
> 
> As to bloviation - nice to know I'm somebody's favorite something around here.  I think that's misplaced, though, because while I may go on at length at times, I generally mean what I say, and try to be as clear as possible. Besides, I thought you were your _own_ favorite bloviator. 
> 
> But while Mike does have the power and perhaps desire to close this thread, I hope he doesn't, as there has been some interesting discussion here, and I am still waiting for more input from Allen. But Mike did start this thread, after all, with a humorous title and intent, so while such frivolity has taken a not unexpected course, he is going to do what he is going to do. But this thread is clearly not about to fade out from apathy. That would serve some useful purpose, while personal ripostes do not.


Don't be so defensive   :Smile: .  I don't want you to get upset on an autoharp thread, of all things..

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## journeybear

True enough. I'm just trying to steer the conversation back toward topic. But if I feel I need to defend myself I will.

Man! I wish we had a smiley of two smileys shaking hands. That would help settle contentious _repartées_.  :Wink: 

Now, I am not saying this is all that good, or even that I like it. But he has taken some time to work out a variety of sounds, and I appreciate the effort. Sounds kind of like an organ here.

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## Ed Goist

> ...snip...
> Isn't it about time this thread slowly faded away?
> Spencer


I find the resiliency (or lack thereof) of various threads on the Cafe quite interesting and often unpredictable. 

There will be threads the title and first post to which will cause me to think, _"Now this is going to generate LOTS of interest and great responses"_, and then...there will be just one or two replies to it, and the thread will inexplicably fade away.  :Confused: 

Then, on the other hand...Well...There's threads like this one.  :Confused:

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## catmandu2

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing Jack White produce an all-autoharp record...with guests Eddie Vedder, Del McCoury and PHJB...doing all trad BG standards

(I confess to a penchant for frivolous play, at times)

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## MikeEdgerton

> But while Mike does have the power and perhaps desire to close this thread....


I have no desire to close this thread. Threads get closed when someone goes over the line, and I don't see that here.




> ...while I may go on at length at times...


It's one of your endearing qualities. The Moderators get paid by the number of words we have to read and your posts have made me a rich man.  :Smile:

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## catmandu2

> Threads get closed when someone goes over the line, and I don't see that here.




That's right, Mike's threshhold is _seven_ consecutive autoharp vids...whch, incidentally, is exactly the number of angels that can play BG autoharp on the head of a pin, which _could_ kill a banjo, theoretically (to get us back "on topic")

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## Paul Kotapish

Bryan Bowers can deliver a tune on the autoharp with some punch:

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## journeybear

> The Moderators get paid by the number of words we have to read and your posts have made me a rich man.


 :Laughing:  Here to help!  :Laughing: 

Guess there's no chance of me becoming a moderator. Boy, could I ever pad my account!  :Grin: 

Thanks for that, Paul. In the hands of a master, almost any instrument can produce wonderful music. Bryan Bowers has certainly put in his 10,000 hours; probably had already when i saw him back in '73 or '74. I think it's safe to assume that is custom-made, with only five bars. What he gets out of it is truly remarkable. When I saw him he played what sounded like a pretty straightforward children's song, then explained he had played the chords, melody, and two counterpoints simultaneously. He played each part separately, then all together again. Truly enlightening. One of the best music lessons I have ever had.

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## Spencer

> For what it's worth, when someone says a thread should end it usually goes on and on.



I'll remember that next time, you sure hit the nail on the head this time.  

Spencer

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## allenhopkins

> ...I am still waiting for more input from Allen. He probably has better things to do...


Not really.  I'm trying to put together a concert for Thursday (tomorrow) night, of songs from the first century or so of American military history; I've been asked to do a series of three Veterans' Day-themed concerts on consecutive Thursdays at a small-town library in Orleans County.  So I was learning a song about Oliver Hazard Perry's victory over the British fleet on Lake Erie.  Concertina accompaniment; won't be using Autoharp (or mandolin) for this gig, though I'm sneaking in my Octafone.

By the way, _Perry's Victory_ really sticks it to Queen Charlotte of England; rhymes her with "varlet," and I think the author would have used "harlot" if not for fear of censoring -- but, I digress...

I have to confess I've not perused the electric Autoharp vids, since I'm sorta hostile to electric instruments in general, and not really all that interested in the Autoharp's applicability to rock'n'roll.  Not a criticism: it's just my own idiosyncratic wiring (hey, a kinda _double entendre,_ right?).

What frustrated me was the hypothesis that, because one can't bend Autoharp strings, or because flesh doesn't touch steel/brass, the instrument is handicapped in expressing emotion.  Listen to Mike Seeger's rendition of _The Two Soldiers_ on his old, out-of-print Vanguard LP -- a tune later picked up by Garcia/Grisman -- and you can hear all the emotion you'd ever want, in this plaintive Civil War ballad fragment.  (Think you can buy it from iTunes.)  I can't accompany this song on any other instrument but Autoharp, perhaps due to pure habituation, but it just seems to _fit_ there.

The other thing that stimulates my continuing thread involvement, is the oft-repeated opinion that this or that instrument *just doesn't belong* in bluegrass music.  Over the years, I've heard this said about lead guitar, electric bass, harmonica, mandola, cello, Autoharp, piano, accordion, drums, etc. etc.  Got pretty good at unearthing exceptions to all of these "rules," only to get the response, "Well, that's not _really_ bluegrass."

Really?  Flatt & Scruggs, Country Gentlemen, Bill Monroe, Lewis Family, Stonemans, Jimmy Martin, Ricky Skaggs, etc. aren't *really* bluegrass?  I know, I know, "isolated examples," "the producer made them do it against their better judgment," "(s)he was the fiddler's wife/lead singer's girlfriend/bandleader's grandson and got in the band that way," "they were trying to appeal to a non-bluegrass audience," yadda yadda.

I was talking this over with my kid, who's much more a scholar of pop/country/folkie music than I (he helped clean up the "Bill Monroe" _Wikipedia_ article a decade ago), and he said bluegrass is one of the most exclusionary music genres he's ever seen.  Entirely too much effort devoted to trying to keep people/instruments/styles/repertoire _out_, IMHO.

So poop on the SPBGMA contest rules, and if someone wants to buy a "bluegrass Autoharp" and play bluegrass on it, more power to him/her.  The idea that you can have an innovative, _avant garde,_ challenging offshoot of mid-20th-century hillbilly music, and cryogenically freeze it so that it cannot evolve, seems misguided to me, and I'm pretty sure that musicians who like the genre and are playing with its boundaries -- some of our mandolin icons, for example -- are unimpressed by scriptural orthodoxy on who and what are "in" and "out."

Of course, I may be wrong...

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## Dobe

You beat me to it mike, by about 2 weeks I was thinkin' Bryan B; Ever hear the banter on the 1st "Circle" album w/ (don't quote me here) Doc & one of the Carter gals ? Somethin' about having re-strung her harp and would 'never again' do it ! (you think 8 strings is bad).  One of those videos inspired me to blow a little flower motif into the top of my autoharp !  :Smile:

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## journeybear

Thanks for all your insight, Allen. What you have had to say has the weight of years of personal experience added to its considered analysis. I appreciate your taking the time to put all that into words. 

My post, which had the unfortunate and unintended result of bothering someone I respect, was not so much hypothesis as conjecture, an attempt to deduce a reason why so many seem to dislike the instrument, whether there is some intrinsic aspect of it that makes it unappealing and an object of scorn. I couldn't think of anything that made sense, so I started with a nonsensical premise and took this to a logical yet absurd conclusion to illustrate the absurdity of this notion, and also demonstrate commonality between autoharp and mandolin. I hoped to bring some discussion to bear on why such a pleasant, even innocuous instrument, should be the object of derision. I don't think that has been determined, which leads me to conclude that enough people deem it an easy target that they will throw potshots at it and assume an adequate level of agreement. I don't understand this - it's not as if it were a banjo  :Wink:  , itself a recipient of an inordinate amount of cyberbullying - but there it is. Of course, there is no reason autoharp can't be an expressive instrument - any well-played instrument can (yes, even percussion). I haven't seen anyone explain _why_ they don't like it, but just use it as a punch line. 

Anyway, I have had a lot of fun looking for examples of diverse uses and styles of play and have learned a lot in so doing. Some of what I have found has been entertaining, even enlightening, and lends credence to the notion that the instrument has potential far beyond what uninformed people assume. I don't expect it to replace guitar as the instrument of choice in rock bands, or fiddle, banjo, or mandolin in bluegrass bands, but it can hold its own. It will be perceived as a novelty item, as will any instrument when used outside of its normally accepted context, but if enough people add it to their arsenal and more listeners become accustomed to it, that may change. Ignorance is _not_ bliss, it's just ignorance - that is, a state of not knowing - but curiosity, investigation, and discovery can lead to learning and enlightenment.

All right, climbing off the soapbox, for now. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming, already in progress ...

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## catmandu2

> I haven't seen anyone explain _why_ they don't like it...


You really need an explanation here?  Seems axiomatic (or automatic)..

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## journeybear

It might be too late. If an odd instrument starts getting used in commercials, it could be a harbinger of mainstream acceptance. Look how often ukulele has been showing up lately, coincident with Train's monster hit, "Hey Soul Sister." I think there is autoharp in the first commercial.






> You really need an explanation here?  Seems axiomatic (or automatic)..


I don't know if I _need_ one, but I would very much _like_ one. I want to understand why people want to vilify an instrument that can be delightful and even thrilling when played well and at its worst is merely innocuous. I would like to see some explanations of people's objections rather than quips and easy punch-line humor. And once this is settled, we may turn the same attention to banjos.  :Disbelief:

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## catmandu2

> I don't know if I _need_ one, but I would very much _like_ one.


Well I'll try to help you out.  While I perhaps can't provide you with data that would necessarily persuade you, I can render my opinion: of all the instruments, it has very limited expressive potential.

I like zithers, kantele, dulcimers and harp-type instruments of all types--they all provide a nice texture.  Standing alone, the sound (and style of playing in which autoharp is typically deployed, due largely to its inherent limitations) of these instruments typcally don't hold my attention for very long.  Your word "innocuous" is apt, I think.  I wouldn't necessarily regard this as "villification"--since I think all instruments are fine--but merely a qualitative comparison of their sonic potential.  (But, I don't care much for the sound of Bach played on mandolin either)

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## catmandu2

But yeah, for simple folk music accompanument, Carter family, etc. autoharp is great...in fact, perhaps  better than a $2K Collings mandolin or somethng..

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## journeybear

Thanks for that, cat. I have been bothered by the knee-jerk reactions expressed at the mere mention of "autoharp" - not on the same level as "banjo," which I kind of understand,* but still, it was like, "autoharps - ewwwhhh!" I just don't see why that would be.

There have been some examples offered showing some very nice, even beautiful playing. Perhaps it is because these show masters at work, rather than everyday folks, which are more what pickers are likely to encounter at jams and song circles, they may not be as much help in dispelling this negative reaction as a proponent would like. Also, since autoharps are not customarily included in bands which feature mandolin, such as bluegrass and country, many mandolinists may subconsciously and even consciously feel they don't belong. I can't say I really feel one way or the other about any of this, having encountered them only occasionally over the years, and hardly at all since I have been down here, nine years now, which is far out of the pickin' loop. I recall liking them, unless they were played poorly, loudly, inappropriately, or in a dominating way.

* Which brings me back to banjos again, somehow.  :Wink:  I think a lot of us just jump at the chance to dump on banjos, something I hardly ever encountered before joining up. In fact, early on I had to ask why this was so, and was informed it was mostly gentle ribbing. I get that, and also since a lot of us play in bands with banjos, and perhaps get upstaged or overlooked in favor of banjo pickers, there is bound to be a certain amount of resentment there. Personally, I think people ought to get over that, and try to get along, despite the temptation to take a pot shot here and there - even though it is awfully easy to do that. As someone who has been playing an overlooked, unpopular, underappreciated instrument for the greater part of my life, has indeed devoted much of his life to it, I understand and sympathize with anyone who has a chip on his shoulder. So I feel a bit of a need to stick up for the autoharp. In fact, participating in this thread has opened my mind a good bit to its capabilities. I hope others do, too. There's so much good music out there, it seems best to be open to it. And one would only do _oneself_ a disservice not to do so.

OK - someone else's soapbox!  :Grin:

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## catmandu2

Well I wouldn't take any of this overly seriously.  All instruments are good.  And each have their niche--some are more likely to be relegated to their niche than others.  The melodeon (diatoinic button accordian) was conceived as an instrument made to be easy to thump out a danceable tune by the dilettante or "non-musician."  But it can also do this:




All instruments are good--don't get caught up in that BS bashing on instruments; there are far better ways to spend time...like making music...with a comb, jaw harp, animal vellum, whatever you;ve got..  I have a couple of pokerworks--I paid $200 for my presswood like Hermeto's there: it's one of the most basic boxes available, but look what it's capable of...

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## journeybear

Thanks for that perspective. It's true, like the old professor said: It ain't what ya got, it's what ya do with it that counts.  :Wink:  And some people can do remarkable things with what eludes others. Music is in the mind; the instrument is just a means for imterfacing one's imagination with others.  :Mandosmiley:

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## catmandu2

Yes, it doesn't take much material to make music--only imagination

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## journeybear

Well, that looks like it was a lot of fun - both the making and the listening. Point well taken. But no need to trot out any clips of Stomp and the like.  :Grin: 

Somehow this reminded me of one of my favorite unexpected musical moments in cinema, a picnic scene in Bernardo Bertolucci's "1900." In the shade of a grove of trees, a dozen or more people start playing ocarinas of various sizes. They produce a remarkably complex and delightful sound, perhaps a bit reminiscent of a calliope, much more delightful as an ensemble than I would have thought possible. Wish me luck finding a clip.  :Smile:

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## allenhopkins

> ...one of my favorite unexpected musical moments in cinema, a picnic scene in Bernardo Bertolucci's "1900." In the shade of a grove of trees, a dozen or more people start playing ocarinas of various sizes. They produce a remarkably complex and delightful sound, perhaps a bit reminiscent of a calliope, much more delightful as an ensemble than I would have thought possible. *Wish me luck finding a clip.*


That would be *here:*

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## journeybear

Thank you so much! Music so simple yet elegant, produced even on such simple instruments by players working in concert with each other, really is the essence of charm and delight. You made my day!  :Mandosmiley: 


(This _really_ goes to 11!)

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## catmandu2

Speaking of calliopes...

That scene reminds me of the forest in the Quay's "Piano Tuner..."  (albeit, not _quite_ as surreal..)

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## Dale Ludewig

Thanks Allen.  That was beautiful.  I don't think I've seen that movie.  Yet.  Another for the todo list.

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## Paul Statman

> I shudder at the thought of this getting out.


Janet Davis is a banjo player. Just sayin'..

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