# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  a nice zither

## kkmm

I happen to see this instrument on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE7tN3-u8rs

I love the sound and its versatility, it seems to be a lap steel guitar (for melody) combined with a harp (for accompaniment).

I read something about this instrument on the Web but its weight is never mentioned.
Is this instrument still made and new one can be found and bought ?

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## Jim Garber

That is your standard concert zither. The fretted parts is not usually played as a lap steel but actually fretted. The frets are very high -- much higher than guitar or mandolin -- so you can also bend the melody notes.

My friend and former bandmate plays all sorts of music on it. He demos and explains here:



He does play some slide/blues here:

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## kkmm

How much one of these would weight ?

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## Jim Garber

Not much. Ken's is like the Steinway of zithers. Mostly more strings for the basses and it goes further down in the bass. I have a Schwartzer prob from around 1900 or so with the case, maybe weighs 10 lbs. or less.

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## Gregory Tidwell

> Not much. Ken's is like the Steinway of zithers. Mostly more strings for the basses and it goes further down in the bass. I have a Schwartzer prob from around 1900 or so with the case, maybe weighs 10 lbs. or less.


Hey Jim!  Is that Ken Bloom?  I don't know the guy, but I have followed his videos on You Tube for some time.  I think he makes dulcimers and bowed dulcimers?  Ive only seen his dulcimer stuff.  Had no idea he was such a wiz on the zither too.  Gonna look for more when I get home from work tonight.  

If he is the guy I am thinking of, please tell him if you are able that he has a You Tube fan in CA who really appreciates his videos.

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## Jim Garber

Ken is a wiz on many instruments, usually strange ones. He also plays Ukrainian bandura, Finnish kantele, saxophone, clarinet and, of course, anything with frets. Has singlehandedly started a *bowed dulcimer movement* in NC.

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## kkmm

How much would one of these cost ? I mean the price range (low end to high end if there are such things).
I love the sound and would not mind learn how to play this.

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## Jim Garber

A zither or a bowed dulcimer?

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## chuck3

Interesting thread.  Seeing those zithers reminds me that we had a zither looking much like those in the house when I was growing up, along with an old bowlback mandolin, a nylon string guitar and an upright piano.  I gravitated to the guitar and piano, fooled around with the mando and really couldn't figure out what to do with the zither.

With that background, of course I became a bass player, but then eventually the lure of the mando returned.  The lure of the zither has yet to do so.  But there are some awesome harp-guitars at Retrofret.

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## Jim Garber

Zithers are out there and , as Chuck3 noted are prob as poplar as bowlback mandolins (meaning not much), but that also means that you might be able to find one for cheap. The hard part is finding parts or strings. 

A quick search found them offered *here* and *here*. Not cheap, as you can see.

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## Bill Snyder

I don't speak German but I still found this video to be interesting.

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Jim Garber, 

kkmm

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, Bill. That is great! I don't know if it is the afternoon after a big lunch but that woman's voice makes me nicely sleepy. I am ready for a nap.  :Smile:

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## chuck3

I remembered that I took a picture of the harp-guitar when I last visited Retrofret.  It's second from the right.  I wonder how that works relative to the zither.  Both have a fretted board and resonating open strings.  But reading some of the material Jim linked, zither appears to be tuned completely differently than a guitar.

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## Jim Garber

Harp guitars have the fretboard strings tuned the same as standard 6 string guitars with the harp strings for bass notes. For more about harp guitars than you would ever imagine, go to Gregg Miner's *harpguitars.net*.

You could, I suppose tune the fretted part of the concert zither to the top 5 strings of a guitar. The zither players play chords and bass notes to accompany the fretted strings melody.

Perhaps the instrument cousin that might be closer to the concert zither is the *Ukrainian bandura*. TGhe one pictured below has harp strings as well. Most modern ones only have the treble "zither" strings.

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## chuck3

whoa - a bada$$ looking dude playing a bada$$ looking instrument!

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## kkmm

Bill,
Thanks for much for the video. I was wondering how this instrument is built (especially the bracing part), this video shows all.
If I am not mistaken, the "nut" is on the left (curved) side of the player and the "bridge" is on the right (straight) side.
The location of these two pieces are very close to the edge of the sound board and do not put much pressure on the sound board (at least that's what I think).
It is a very interesting instrument that draw a lot of my attention.

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## JeffD

The classic.

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## kkmm

My interest in this zither overwhelmed my mind, so I bid one on eBay and won ;-)
The total is 30$ plus 18$ for shipping charge.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/350928480412...84.m1439.l2648
Knowing nothing about this, I still believe this is a very good deal.
The ads says it is in excellent playing condition (whatever that means).

All of this happens because of a youtube video !!! But I am glad I own one.

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## Jim Garber

Hopefully that crack is the only thing wrong. In that case, you did great. I would loosen the string some ASAP.

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## kkmm

> How much would one of these cost ?





> A zither or a bowed dulcimer?


My question is about the zither which is the main subject of the thread I started.
BTW, I just won one from eBay. Don't know how good it is until I received it.
I have never touched this instrument my life, but plugging a few strings and listen to the sound can tell me just a bit about how good it sounds.

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## kkmm

I hope the crack is the joint separation of the back plate. 
I assume the back plate is made by joining two pieces just like mandolins top & back as shown in the video on post #11 by Bill Snyder (thanks again, Bill).
I will manage to fix the "crack" after I get it.
Please stay tuned and help me out next week.

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## Jim Garber

It is prob a decent instrument either imported from germany or possibly made by Schwarzer who was a German make who worked out of the St. Louis area. I have a Schwarzer I got in exc condition which i restrung and then never learned to play. Hopefully you will learn to play it.

Here are a couple of tutorials.

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## kkmm

Jim,
thanks for your encouragement. Yes, I will learn to play it, at least for my own enjoyment.
However, the first thing is to make sure the instrument is in good shape to play, stay tuned, etc...
I plan to swap the 5 "guitar" strings such that the bass ones are closer to me (just to have familiar look of a guitar or mandolin fretboard).
I just retired last month (will be 62 next Jan) and will have time to enjoy all my instruments. 
I found a "zither" forum where I can get infos about this.
I currently play music for churches a lot more than I used to (4 to 5 times a week, piano/guitar/keyboard).

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## Masterbilt

Zithers a various types were/are also quite popular in Switzerland (where I live). There is also a Zither museum near Berne. Here some photos from their collection of historic instruments (german language website):
http://www.zither.ch/Zitherzentrum/I...strumente.html

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## kkmm

Are there new concert zithers being made these days ?
Update: I went out of town for a week, and asked the seller to delay shipping by a few days.
It's on the way to my home now, hopefully will get it by Wed/Thu.

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## mandolinlee

kkmm -

Good luck with your zither. Here's hoping you can learn to play it. Keep us posted of your progress, we're interested.

Lee

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## Jim Garber

Looks like *this site* is the Mandolin Cafe for zitherists. I don't see any contemporary builders list tho.

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## kkmm

I just retired so I will keep myself busy learning this intricate instrument.
However, I am praying that the one I bought is in "excellent playing condition" as advertized.
This means: all the tuning mechanism are in good shape (at least the first dozen harmony strings) and the strings stay tuned.
Once I get it, I will post some infos here such as its exact dimensions and some sound samples, I will just pluck the strings and record how they sound.
Since the fretboard strings are tuned in 5-th like a mandola (C G D A A), I will be able to play some tunes (without the harmony part) within a few days. Playing both together will require a lot of practice of my part.

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## Jim Garber

I would still loosen the strings and have someone take a look at that back crack before you tune it to pitch. Remember that there something like 32 strings pulling on that structure. Also, at some point you may want to put new strings on it. Who knows how old those are and they may not stay in tune.

Let us know how it turns out when you get it.

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## kkmm

Jim,
thanks for the suggestion about the crack. Definitely I will take a look and as I mentioned earlier, I will see if this is simply a joint separation. If it is I will attempt to fix it myself (I have enough tools, HHG, wood glue to tackle this job). If it turns out to be too difficult for me, I will bring it to a pro.
Still praying for "excellent playing condition".

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## kkmm

I finally got it. It was delivered to my neighbor's door in the afternoon while I sat at home waiting for it.
In the evening, my neighbor brought it to me, I only have time to open the box and take a quick look, then had to go for a Xmas music rehearsal !!!

Today, I examine the whole thing carefully and took some photos.


1) The first thing is to look at the crack on the back (as shown in post#29), it is indeed the joint separation, it's perfectly straight and I guess due to the dryness, the wood contract and cause the joint to separate. The gap is about 0.010" max.
I doubt that I can use HHG to reglue and clamp to close the gap. Imagine the back of a guitar got separated at the center line.
I am thinking about filling this crack with epoxy to close it, knowing epoxy may not be a good choice.
*** PLEASE ADVISE me as to how to fix this separation ***

2) The distance from fret zero to fret#12 is 8"1/8 and fret zero to "saddle" is 16"3/8 (so there are some saddle compensation)
    However, the notes at fret#12 are sharp !!! I can hear it. This is another issue for me to address

3) I try to play a few tunes such as Silent Night, Tennessee Waltz (only the melody part) and manage to produce the tunes. But fretting is kind of awkward (will get used to this with a lot of practice) and very hard to fret the notes. I notice the strings are kind of heavy strings (instead of medium or light) compared to guitar steel strings. To reduce the tension I change the tuning (from CGDAA  to GDAEE) and it is a bit easier to fret the notes.

4) also noticed the string action at fret#12 is 0.090" (2.25mm or 5.8/64"), on my guitar, the string action at the same distance from the nut is only 0.060" (4/64"). I will use lighter strings to see if the intonation issue at fret#12 goes away or not, if not, I will lower the saddle a bit. I also figure out a way to move the saddle, only if absolutely necessary, a bit farther from the fretboard to get good intonation.

5) observation: the "nut" which is fret zero is the part that transfer the string vibration to the soundboard, the "saddle+bridge" are at the edges of the instrument and therefore does not contribute much to the sound (I could be wrong about this).

6) the tuning heads are "rectangular", not square, fortunately the tuning wrench is included in the box. I will make damn sure I NEVER lose it.

Above are some issues that are manageable. Below are the good things , including potential improvements:
1) the instrument is in excellent condition (other than the split on the back plate), the finish is pristine on the top and the back. A little touch up work will address some minor scratchs at the sides
2) the hard case is in good shape, requiring only a few touch up as the (black) paint or stain got scratched. I intend to use the black fabric to cover the entire box with corner pieces (I built two hard cases for two of my keyboards this way), a small project for me to do
3) the brass handle is in perfect condition, just look antique (and I like that part)
4) the fabric inside the case is sky blue in color, I plan to replace with red ones (another small project)
5) steel strings (for acoustic guitar) can be used on the fretboard of this instrument and the ball end with a hole in the center perfectly match the pins on the bridge side. The other 26 strings (12 harmony strings, 12 bass strings and 2 contra-bass strings) appear to be steel string too, however, I will check in the zither forum, before I replace them.

I am very happy with this instrument (as I only paid 48$ for it, others listed on eBay have numerous defects and cost 200$ to 450$, some without hard cases). My wife is happy too as it looks beautiful and only cost peanuts, another subject she can brag with our friends.

and last: *** PLEASE ADVISE me as to how to fix the separation on the back ***

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## kkmm

Another strange detail: the instrument has 3 feet at the bottom where they touch the table. And these feet have pointed tip, which is the tip of a nail. This is how it is designed to grip the table during play. In the last photo of previous post, there are 3 round things for the pointed feet to rest on and not poking thru the fabric.
So I may need to build a special table for it (explained in the zither forum).

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## Jim Garber

> 2) The distance from fret zero to fret#12 is 8"1/8 and fret zero to "saddle" is 16"3/8 (so there are some saddle compensation)
>     However, the notes at fret#12 are sharp !!! I can hear it. This is another issue for me to address


My suggestion: before you fiddle with intonation, change the strings, at least on the fretboard part. These strings are prob decades old and prob have lots whatever intonation and tone they would have had.




> 6) the tuning heads are "rectangular", not square, fortunately the tuning wrench is included in the box. I will make damn sure I NEVER lose it.


I believe that there are tuning wrenches that are star-shaped and might take odd-shaped tuner pins. Then again, best to hold onto the ones that work. Of course, the zither forums might have more accurate info than you can find, certainly from me. 

When I got mine, there was Zapf's Music Store in Philadelphia. AFAIK they are closed but at that time they carried lots of zither items. I got strings and a book. I will try to find the book.

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## kkmm

The strings just got shipped and yes I will wait until I try the new strings.
Once the instrument proves playable good enough (no slipping pins, no new cracks, etc..) I will buy a set of real zither strings (about 175$ to 200$ a set !!!).

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## kkmm

I found one set of new steel strings and put them on this zither. It does sound better with these new strings, no intonation problem.
After a few days of practice, I found out that fretting is easier if I press the string close to the fret.
Yesterday, I spent about 2 hours to enhance the hard case (which is old and has some small cracks, scratches and faded stain). I simply glue the black fabric, the kind used for speakers, portable amps, etc...

Here are the before / after photo of the case.

I know this destroys the antique look of the case, but I want the hard case to look neat.
(and never has intention to sell this instrument).

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## Jim Garber

Your excitement is contagious. I may have to dig mine out and give it a whirl. I hope it is still playable. I have to also find that book.

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## chip

I have one in my store right now. Exquisite rosewood front and back.

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## Timbofood

I first met Ken Bloom way back in the mid-late 70's what an interesting time we had! He played at the only place which had anything other mainstream music. Canterbury house was the predecessor to what has become the Kazoo folklife organization. Back then it was run by some very thoughtful talent searchers! The place may have actually seated seventy five (very friendly) patrons.  Mike Seeger, Martin, Bogen, and the Armstrongs, Jim Ringer with Mary McCaslin, Utah Phillips, Larry Sparks, Ken Bloom, Sparky Rucker. And the list goes on and on!  That place formed the base for my musical interest which still influences my taste.  Nothing like that will probably ever be as much fun for me.
I love how the cafe is "broadening scope" with concert zithers, strong work Scott!
To address the sharp pointy foot issue, I remember Ken having something like a breadboard since he played it on his "lap"

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## kkmm

> To address the sharp pointy foot issue, I remember Ken having something like a breadboard since he played it on his "lap"


I happen to have a wooden board that I built for a different purpose and it fit perfectly this zither. I can put it on my lap and play.
Today, I tried to tune the harmony strings and bass strings up to pitch, but many of them have extremely low tension when tuned to pitch, and therefore does not produce good volume & tone.
And they are so closed together, I have a hard time to pluck the one I want to pluck.

Can some of you with this type of zithers give me one piece of info: what is the distance from the harmony string#1 to the contra-bass string#1 (ie from string#1 to string#25). Mine is just a bit less than 5.5 inch.
The melody strings spacing are wider and easier to play (2" from the first string to the fifth).

The hard part about this instrument is there is no others around to compare like with guitars, mandolins, ukuleles.

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## Timbofood

So, the  bread board  thing was not......an imagined support! I thought I imagined most of the few times I picked with Ken!
I was so much older then....

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## marcodamusician

Hey All, I have to toss in this video of Kerry Christensen since we're speaking of the zither. He is one of the finest yodelers in the world but he also plays the accordion, guitar and zither. Here he's discussing the zither and then gives a demo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIUPmCOXdCY

Oh, just a warning. If you're interested in any of Kerry's music then go to his site. People will try to rip you off on amazon because he doesn't really sell his music there. 
http://kerrychristensen.com/

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## Martin Jonas

All this talk about zithers reminded me that my grandmother used to play one, and I was always fascinated by the elaborate nature of the instrument when she played it at family gatherings.  She died when I was in my early teens, so my recollections are rather vague -- I have no associations of the sound or repertoire, just this image of her playing.  Her oldest daughter, my aunt, also took up the zither and still plays it to this day, but I've never seen her do it.

Strings and various accessories (tuning keys, thumb rings etc) can be bought from Schneider Musik in Germany.

Martin

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## kkmm

That a nice zither playing from Kerry Christensen. I heard he said: "this is one of the most difficult instruments to play".
After a few days just playing the melody using the fretboard strings, I found it's so damn hard to fret compared to heavy strings on acoustic guitar. Certainly due to my "just a few days of practice". I can play lots of tunes, but they all sound like a novice (which is who I am on this) !!! And the accompaniment sounds quite simple but extremely difficult to carry out while playing the melody. Well, just need hell lot of practice. The second piece he plays would be no big deal on a piano, but on this zither thing is a different animal.
However, I love it and continue to stick with it.
The zither forum already warns zither newbees: no matter how good you are on other instruments, you are just a novice when beginning to play the zither (something along this idea).

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## marcodamusician

kkmm, isn't that true though about any instrument we play? The Mandolin, while not as hard as a zither, isn't a super easy instrument to learn how to play. That's why we practice daily to learn. Kerry, in his early days of yodeling, would practice the zither in between gigs at Disney. Yes, that was one of his first jobs. He would take the three or four hours between sets and practice on his zither. Jimmi Hendrix always traveled with a guitar in his hand. His friends would say he was always playing even when he wasn't. In other words, he was playing the music in his head before he ever touched the strings. I think we all begin to hear music in our heads when our instrument becomes a part of us, right? 

Oh, and I agree. The Zither is an amazing instrument. I think I'll leave this one for you. I love the sound but am satisfied with the guitar, mandolin, banjo, didgeridoo, steel drum and various flutes. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_hKVDtzMGg

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## Jim Garber

Here's a nice sweet sounding tune on what looks like a large modern zither.

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## kkmm

Thanks Jim for this post. It's very inspiring. The player's left hand moves so smoothly, and although the melody tune is not fast, it's really takes a lot of practice to be able to fret like that. On the mandolin or guitar, I have no problem to play a tune like this smootly, no way on the zither yet. The zither is really something totally different.
There is a detail in the video that I like to ask: what is the slanted line that cross the harmony strings ? Is this just an artifact of video recording or an actual "saddle" or something ?
BTW: after one week fiddling around with my zither, and compare it against the ones listed on eBay, mine is truly "in excellent playing condition" as advertised, nothing need to be fixed except replacing the strings.
Think about a 5 year-old mandolin, well kept and, that's what it looks like.
The split on the back is simply caused by dried glue, not a crack and has no effect on the structure of the instrument/
I will certainly have a lot of fun and hard work with this one in the next decade.

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## kkmm

Two days ago, I remove all harmony and bass strings (26 in total) and replace them with (cheap) steel guitar strings and also tune it in my way (which is not standard).  I spent about 20$ for 8 sets of guitar steel strings.

The harmony strings + some bass strings are tuned chromatically from G4 down to C3. I will paint some strings to be black (like a black keys on piano) to help me locating the notes.
Then a few bass strings with the bass notes: B2 A2 G2 F2  (plenty for me to practice).

This non-standard tuning scheme will certainly limit which keys I can play with but for the next 6 months, playing in C, G, D are plenty of works. So don't beat me up on this deviation from standard (in case you know what the zither standard tuning is)

There is a few reasons for this:
1) a new string set cost about 200$, I will spend this amount only if my zither proves to be in really good shape,
2) I could not find any information on zither strings gauges, and therefore can't place guitar strings at the right slot for standard tuning (with time, I will be able to figure this out, not perfect but close and on the safe side, i.e. lower tension). Once I figure this out, I will go back to standard Munich tuning immediately
2) guitar strings allow me to test that all the tuning pins hold tune and do not slip (so far so good, no issue here)
3) allow me to practice playing the harmony part with strings really close to each other (just the harmony part right now)

The harmony strings sound good on this zither, I will have to practice a lot to be able to play the 3 chord C / F and G cleanly.
Playing the simple 3 note arpeggio (3/4 time) :  C E G E G E C  is extremely easy on any instrument but certainly not on this zither due to the tiny gap between strings.

With real zither strings and standard tuning, it's easier to switch between the 3 main chords (C F G for example), as one only need to shift by one or two string position. much more difficult with my current tuning.

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## Jim Garber

I believe that some folks buy piano wire for zithers and figure out how to make the loops. 

BTW there is another older thread on the Cafe (2006) with some info *here*.

*Updated German string site Concert Zither page*.

If I ever get a moment, I will dig my zither out. I never did get to learn to play it tho. Right now I am trying to find time for the nyckelharpa.

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## kkmm

Jim,
thanks for the link to the store that sells zither strings, I bookmarked it.
I am glad the price is in the 120$-140$ range.
I just email them to ask for shipping cost to CA, USA.
The zither learning curve is huge compared to other instruments.
I made my decision to learn it as I just retired and have time for it.
(besides continue to play other instruments).
This morning, I had a chance to see another zither. It appears to be larger in size, the harmony / bass strings gap is larger than mine and therefore should be easier to pluck the strings.

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## Jacob

A zither player was featured in the Strauss waltz "Tales from the Vienna Woods" performed by the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra in the 2014 New Year's Day Celebration.

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## kkmm

When I practice playing this zither, my IMAGINATION (and creativity, an attribute of my design engineering career) pops up and I think about making an instrument similar to the concert zither, except the accompaniement part only needs about 6 strings like a guitar (iwth a separate neck), and I could design a electro mechanical device, micro-processor controlled, which has one pin for each string & fret slots for the first 5 ot 7 fret position. A set of pedals (one chord per pedal) and the microprocessor will translate the contact of each pedal to a set of pins corresponding to a chord. This way, one can play melody and simply swipe the accompaniement strings to produce the right chord (as if there is a second guitar player). This device can be certainly used on a normal guitar so that one can play leads / melody along with chords without too much hassles. One just need to finger the frets for the melody on trebble strings and the lower strings (pressed down for proper chords by the device) can be plucked or strummed to produce the chord (selected by stepping on the proper pedal).

WAY TOO MUCH FROM MY IMAGINATION but I am certain it is doable. And someone could file a patent for this design if it does not exist yet.

Then I found something called the "autoharp" which has chord buttons !!!. I did some look up on it and watch a couple youtube video and understood how this chord mechanism works. Pretty simple.
It looks like the easiest instrument to play (at least the strumming part, the melody part is kind of tricky but not that hard) while the concert zither is on the other end from the difficulty scale !!!
This afternoon, I had a chance to see , touch and try one 21-chord auto harp, first time ever, and I strummed it so easily to some usual chord sequence, it sounds sweet.
Oh Oh, MIAS ( musical instrument AS kicks in again), but I resist myself from buying that one. 
It has 36 strings and takes about 30 minutes to tune it.

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## Jim Garber

Harp guitar...

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## kkmm

Yes, I have seen these harp guitar photos. However, the harp strings are fixed at certain notes (no frets), probably bass notes.
It's still better than none.

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## Jim Garber

> I think about making an instrument similar to the concert zither, except the accompaniment part only needs about 6 strings like a guitar (with a separate neck)


I would think a zither design with only 6 strings would prob include mainly bass notes. Hence the harp guitar. There were a bunch of variants on zithers that had melody strings and other strings arranged in chord groupings. And then, as you mention, there was the autoharp.

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## kkmm

Hmm... I can't resist the autoharp, so after seeing and playing one, I bid and won this one on eBay ( seller is a pawn shop, I think I am lucky here too to get a good deal). But let's wait and see when it arrives to my home.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=231127055586

The strange thing is NO ONE bids this one except me. There are identical auto harp (same brand, same look) that had a few bids up to 150$ and bidding is still going on.

I am still practicing the zither (and others such as guitars, piano, keyboards, mandolins as I do play gigs very often with them), but I am far away from being playing the zither well enough even just to show off to friends. I have to remove every other strings so the spacing is not too narrow, and tune the remaining string my own way (just to get a few chords to play).

[ I just retired so I have plenty of time for this hobby ]

This auto harp is the easiest instrument to play (if you already know strumming and chords names).

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## Jim Garber

You got a good deal on that autoharp if it is in good shape. I think that is a fairly new one. I also have a 21 bar one but I found that the std button arrangement makes little sense for accompaniment of songs. For instance, the minor chords should be positioned near the relative major, for example Am should be near C. I remember moving the bars and also buying a few others -- you can get custom bars and buttons for chords they do not provide.

I play a lot of tunes and songs in D and the relative minor chord missing is Bm so I think I ordered one of those.

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## kkmm

Hi Jim,

you are right about the chord buttons arrangement. I have done some research on the Web and found this arrangement which looks more logical:

Ab----Bb7----F7---C7---G7---D7---A7
--Eb-----Bb----F----C----G----D----A
----Cm-----Gm---Dm---Am---Em---E7---B7

This is the first thing I will do, remove the chord bars, do some cleaning first (as it is dusty), then put the bars back to get the configuration above. Then, on a cheat sheet I will have to write down all the keys I can play with, something like:

in C Major: C  F  G  G7 Am Dm Em E7 A7  (can be used)
in D Major: D  G  A  A7      Em          B7  (missing Bm, F#m)
in G Major: G  C  D  D7 Em Am      B7 E7  (missing Bm)
etc.....

This will tell me quickly whether a song can be played with this autoharp or not.
For example, I play many songs in F#m key to fit with with singer's voice, Gm is a bit stressing sometimes. F#m requires these missing chords: C#, Bm, so I have to avoid these songs.

Most of the times, the X7-th chords can be substituted with X chord, so going forward and I may replace the X7-th chords with other chords I need more often, thus making the instrument more versatile.

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## kkmm

By the way, there is an Android Apps called "Real Guitar" that can be used on an Android tablet and the player can select the main key. It will show other corresponding chords and one can play it like an auto harp. It sounds good when plug into an amp.
This mode should be called "auto harp".
There is also a custom chord config for 7 chords total for each key. That's more than what a real auto harp can handle.
The downside for the table is there is no touch sensitivity, no matter how soft or hard the finger sweeps the "strings", the volume is the same.

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## Jim Garber

Actually I prefer to keep the upper two rows as-is and just have the relative minors on the third row. That way you have the 1-4-5 of each key in a nice compact triangle with the minor nearby. 

If I can dig out my autoharp I can show you how I have it set up. I actually used to play it a bunch in my old time band many moons ago. Great for Carter Family and the like.

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## kkmm

Hi Jim,

Is this is what you have done on your auto harp ?

Eb---	Bb---	F----	C----	G----	D----	A
F7---	C7---	G7---	D7---	A7---	E7---	B7
Cm---Gm---Dm---Am--	Em---Ab---	Bb7

This arrangement makes a lot of sense as they are arranged in 5-th.
This also shows the Ab and Bb7 can be replaced by the Bm and F#m that I need.

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## Jim Garber

Yeah, something like that. I will see if I can get my autoharp from my closet. Time to take a look. That last time I played it was for my daughter's 2nd grade class and she is in college now. I suppose it needs to be tuned, too.

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## kkmm

Hi Jim,

Yours must be a high quality one. I heard that new ones are built with lower quality than vintage  ones. From what I read on the Web (in various place), the Rhythm Band (ChromAharp) is built better than the Oscar Smith. Again, I have to wait to see if it is good quality or not. Can't compare with the OS as I don't have one of these.

About the string tuning on this harp (and on my concert zither), I use a small rigid tube to extend the handle lenght and therefore it's easier to get the string in tune (less force to turn the pin and the pin turns LESS with the same handle displacement.

After going thru zither tuning (30 some strings) , mandolin and guitar string tuning are piece of cake.

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## Jim Garber

I guess I bought it in the late 1970s -- it was still plywood but built pretty solidly. I think I got a star tuner from a piano shop which worked better than the wrench that came with it.

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## kkmm

Mine is without a tuner wrench !!! I will have to buy one after measuring the (square) pin size.
Maybe the zither tuner (for rectangular pin heads) could work temporarily. However, if it does not grip the pin head tightly, I will not make any turn for fear this will damage the pin heads.
I will be on 8 days vacation starting from tomorrow, so I won't see it until Friday next week.

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## rbenjes

You have a "Konzertzither" This is a "folk" instrument and regularly played in the German speaking word. It came to fame in the classic movie "The Third Man". Go to you tube for more information.

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## Petrus

Here's a zither up on eBay recently.



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Franz-Schwar...s/181438668075

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## kkmm

I have decided to put the concert zither on the side (still in very decent condition) and start playing the auto harp instead.
So far, I bought 4 auto harps from eBay and the cheapest one turns out to be the best sounding one as it is built with solid wood. I sold the other 3 fairly quickly on local CraigList (after doing works on them to ensure they play well).
It took me only 4 weeks to be able to play a dozen songs (melody and accompaniement) and now almost any tune I know.
The concert zither is really hard due to the narrow string gap. I cannot even play harmony strings cleanly. This nice concert zither is now part of my instrument collection, the only one for display only.

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## Jim Garber

When you are ready to move up in your AAS: check out *Orthey Dulci-Harps*. A friend of mine is an excellent autoharp player and he plays one of these. It sounds like a grand piano.

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## kkmm

I take a look at these Orthey Dulci-Harps. I have no doubt they have highest quality. For now I will continue to practice with the "el-cheapo" one I got. It was sold by someone (on eBay) who know nothing about these instruments and that's why it's cheap (15$ + 25$ shipping !!!). Probably he just want to get rid of it.
I performed this instrument to various groups of friends and all said it sound wonderful. Now I have a dream for Orthey Dulci-Harps.
The last couple days, I look at some of the "lever harps" on local CL, and felt the urge to buy one but I need to control myself. My wife told me why not buying a violin (since I am playing mandolins and she love violin sound, remembering what I did with it about 25 years ago), I still can't decide.

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## clobflute

European zithers are very cute  :Smile: 

I love the ethnological developments of these instruments across the world.  The techniques are very different across the different zithers of course.   I tried learning lever harp, but just wasn't getting enough practice time. 

In the end, I opted for a horizontal zither - here's mine - a bit larger than a laptop kantele or German autoharp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuErovibtJk

It's made of aged rosewood; moveable bridges.   It's native base key is diatonic, although you can play atonal music and achieve microtones easily.  I love its open resonance.

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## kkmm

These "horizontal zither" are called Gu-Zheng, I grew up see it played all around. But it's not for the kind of western music I am used to. To my understanding, it is tuned based on a chosen pentatonic scale (C / D / E / G / A  for example OR all the black keys on a piano !!!). It could be re-tuned to different keys but not practical to change key during a live session.
The concert zither can play music written for piano and that makes it attractive, but it's too difficult for me. I love the autoharp, so easy to play.

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## clobflute

What kind of 'western' music are you into?  

Music like the Moonlight Sonata; Ave Maria, or Mario Super Bros are Justin Bieber are very simple to transcribe onto the gu-zheng zither. 

The base scale can be D major, C, G, F, Bb, Eb with skilled performers switching between major and minor keys.  Some atonal pieces and microtonal pieces have been written for guzheng.   I see what you mean:  how can you get a full chromatic scale from  a 5 string octave, which repeats over 4 octaves?   

The moveable bridges are actually moved during concert.  Listen to this piece:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mGM2qhl680

during which, the player moves the bridge.   This is standard practice during performance.   She was playing in California recently ...

So say the strings are tuned in pentatonic D major:   D, E, Fsharp, A, B.   
By bending the strings (left string side of the bridge is partially depressed, whilst right hand plucks), you also add:

D sharp/Eflat; F natural, G, Bflat, C.    

The missing Csharp, Gsharp are also attained by further increasing the string pressure of the left side, or simply by moving the bridges, but that's only of interest for players. Microtones are achieved by subtle left hand string pressure, and arpeggios are completely flawlessly executed - even a 4 year old cannot screw up an arpeggio on a guzheng, since the whole four octaves are practically strung in pitch to make it impossible, at least in the simple major keys. 

It is this peculiar glissandi technique, combined with polychromatic techniques of the left hand playing gives the guzheng zither its strong oriental coloration and tonal complexity.    It is an instrument which is really necessary to have good lessons for.      I guess I'm fascinated by it because I never grew up nor ever saw one being played live until a few years ago.  When I as learning piano in college, variations in note pitch was impossible - notes were essentially always the same pitch, with very little tone colour (compared to a flute, or guitar).   There's something beautiful about plucked string instruments with wood resonance; piano keys and hammers don't quite do it for me, but then, this may be my fascination with orientalism  :Smile:

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## kkmm

The Gu-Zheng is a special and interesting instrument. Tuned in pentatonic scale but intermediate notes can be achieved by putting more pressure on the strings with left hand fingers. I do play the mono-chord (single string instrument) and it can play ANY note in an octave including microtonal notes (such as a note between F and F#). This instrument plays using harmonic technique. Typically the string is tune in C and can produce (from low to high)  C, G, E, G C as harmonic notes. All other notes are obtained by bending, with the left hand,  the "whammy bar" which the string is attached to.

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