# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Whats the hardest tune you can play on mandolin? (Or family)

## David Lewis

Mine is, I think 'Spain' by Chick Corea. I was curious as to what others could play. Now your hardest tune may be someone elses warmup. Having got Spain, Im looking fir something else I can sink my teeth into. But Im also interested in what people think is hard. It took me a month to learn all the sections and integrate them so its fairly seamless. Most tunes take me anything from straight away to two days. 

All levels and tunes welcome. No judgement and no condescension. 

Whats your hardest tune?

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## AlanN

Brilliancy, as played by Sam Bush, to get clean and up to speed (and then Chris' harmony?...fuggedaboutit...)

Be Bop and Donna Lee are next - ugh.

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geechee, 

Paul Statman

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## T.D.Nydn

Raffaele Calace ll preludio,op.49,,I have it memorized and play it on a F5,,next Orange Blossom Special played to speed as per the sheet music written by Ervin T. Rouse in 1938,,finally the theme to the jetsons,still working on it...

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## mandocrucian

*"Hardest*" is a rather relative term. Is it the basic tune itself, or what a player does to/with it?

Even the _simplest_ and/or _slowest_ of tunes can _become difficult_ if/when the advanced finesse and articulation elements/techniques are incoprporated: slurring, bending, vibrato, harmonic chiming, across-the strings melodic crosspicking, ornamentation, working the entire neck, volume/tone dymanics, doublestops, split-string, playing a simultaneous harmony line(s), muting, adding in backup chords behind the lead line, etc. etc.

It's been awhile since I've played it on mandolin, and probably can't remember it all  (fortunately I've got it written down in a notebook somewhere), but I had a pretty sublime version of _"Sleepwalk"_  worked up.

For tricky guitar-style rhythm backup, the Johnny Winter version of _"Rock N Roll Hoochie Koo"_ is rough, especially if you harmonize the single string licks with what Rick Derringer was playing in tandem.

But if it's just single string melody you are talking about, Paganini's _"Modo Perpetuo"_ is a real bear, and I never did get it past the 50% mark tempo-wise. Real good shifting exercise.   The Kreutzer (violin) bowing and doublestop etudes are tough on mandolin too.

NH

(I would like to be able to replicate Etta James' phrasing/intonation/etc of _"At Last"_ on the flute!  Or maybe come close to Sandy Denny on some of her stuff.  Capturing the vocal nuances of a great vocalist can be just as difficult as playing any high-speed barn-burner, imo)

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Eric Platt, 

Jess L.

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## UsuallyPickin

I'm with Alan. Brilliancy is at the very top of my hard to play list. I have been thinking about Little Rock Getaway lately as a recent guitar lesson involved that tune. Here's hoping it won't be more difficult on mandolin than it is on guitar. Sheesh.  T.D. if you have a fondness for T.V. tunes check out the theme from Mr. Ed.  R/

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T.D.Nydn

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## fatt-dad

I'll continue to struggle on Bach!  I have a half-dozen of the two-part Inventions worked up, but they're hard to make clean.

f-d

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Jim Garber, 

lflngpicker

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## JeffD

I find the hardest tunes, the hardest musical endeavors I push through, are classical ensemble pieces. In addition to the music being challenging, the importance of my voice in the ensemble makes it necessary that I get it right, and get it right while listening to others _doing something else, something usually very different_.

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David Lewis

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## DavidKOS

Probably the Bach Partita in E BMV 1006.

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David Lewis, 

Jim Garber, 

lflngpicker, 

William Smith

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## foldedpath

I haven't played much else besides Irish/Scottish and related trad in the last few years, and most of that is not very difficult. A few tunes stand out though. 

One that took me a while is "Ian Green of Greentrax," a Gordon Duncan pipe tune with a fiendish syncopated bit in the third section. Had to burn that into muscle memory, so I don't try to think about it. The "Tolka Polka" is another one that took a while to get under my fingers. I'm still working on the double 16th note run in "King George IV strathspey." Haven't quite got that up to speed yet, and may never match what the Cape Breton fiddlers do with that one. 

Most of the repertoire isn't very difficult. It's meant to get your feet moving, not too flashy or difficult to play well, compared to other genres like Jazz or Classical. The hardest part is learning _enough_ tunes to play with others, since there are so many!

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David Lewis

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## Drew Egerton

Hardest for me is probably jazz stuff that I am just not familiar with yet. If I called myself a 7/10 bluegrass picker, I am a 2/10 in jazz lol.

As far as tunes I actually can somewhat play, I think Wild Fiddler's Rag off Alan Bibey's In the Blue Room is one that is always a challenge. Never mind the tempo he recorded it at. The stretches and moving around the neck is a workout and I always feel cramped up by the end of it. A good tune to practice staying relaxed! (in theory)

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David Lewis

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## David L

"Flaky", by Jethro Burns, is physically hard because it is all double stops, often while holding one finger down and changing others. Another, also because of double stops, is my arrangement of "A Mis Colegas". I transcribed it from a South American cd of tiple music.

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David Lewis

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## David Lewis

> *"Hardest*" is a rather relative term. Is it the basic tune itself, or what a player does to/with it?
> 
> Even the _simplest_ and/or _slowest_ of tunes can _become difficult_ if/when the advanced finesse and articulation elements/techniques are incoprporated: slurring, bending, vibrato, harmonic chiming, across-the strings melodic crosspicking, ornamentation, working the entire neck, volume/tone dymanics, doublestops, split-string, playing a simultaneous harmony line(s), muting, adding in backup chords behind the lead line, etc. etc.
> 
> It's been awhile since I've played it on mandolin, and probably can't remember it all  (fortunately I've got it written down in a notebook somewhere), but I had a pretty sublime version of _"Sleepwalk"_  worked up.
> 
> For tricky guitar-style rhythm backup, the Johnny Winter version of _"Rock N Roll Hoochie Koo"_ is rough, especially if you harmonize the single string licks with what Rick Derringer was playing in tandem.
> 
> But if it's just single string melody you are talking about, Paganini's _"Modo Perpetuo"_ is a real bear, and I never did get it past the 50% mark tempo-wise. Real good shifting exercise.   The Kreutzer (violin) bowing and doublestop etudes are tough on mandolin too.
> ...


That was part of my question. For some players, something like 'twinkle twinkle little star' might be hard, because they’ve just started or because they arrange it in some way that has a high degree of technical finesse. Someone may have had an accident your a medical condition is what is quite easy for you or I might be a technical achievement for them. 

There are some great answers here. Keep them coming.

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## Eric Platt

Haven't been playing long enough to really be able to play difficult pieces. Probably the toughest I try is Sakkijarvan Polka. In Cm. Can get through it in Am. But the switch over to Cm is harder than I expected. And am nowhere near actual Finnish polka speed. Thankfully the accordion player I play it with from time to time can slow it down for me. Although that makes it more difficult for her.

But on most pieces, am still not satisfied with my phrasing, picking and finger pressure. So many things need to be worked on at different levels.

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David Lewis

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## Mark Gunter

In all seriousness, it’s all hard for me.

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David Lewis, 

George R. Lane, 

mugbucket

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## Andy B

In 2011 I learned the mandolin accompaniment to the one aria in Mozart’s opera Don Giovanni that features mandolin. I had to memorize it because I was on stage in the character of a street musician who is paid by Don G to help him woo a maid with song. I did two shows with an opera company in Albany. Most of the company were in their 20’s with powerful voices and strong acting skills to boot. 
I think the most challenging part of the music was learning the fingerings. The mandolin part is lovely, as busy as the vocal line is calm. What most struck me about it apart from the beauty and creativity of the music was that it moved through the circle of fifths just like so much popular music. The whole experience was very worthwhile for a bluegrass musician with no prior classical music experience.

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David Lewis, 

DavidKOS

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## JeffD

There is a way I hope it is always difficult. I mean, I don't really ever want to sit back and say its good enough. I don't rule out having a metric tonne of fun. I mean that I want always to be struggling to make it better.

Because there always is better. In the classical world i am holding on with my teeth, in the fiddle tune repertory not so much. There I am trying to make my playing more musical. Which is also a real challenge.

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David Lewis, 

Mark Gunter

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## KGreene

Fairly recently I asked this same question … "that seems hard to play, is it?" (can't remember the player or the tune at the moment) but his answer was very motivating ..…_ "no, it's not hard to play at all, but it was pretty hard to learn"._

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David Lewis, 

Jess L., 

Mark Gunter, 

MontanaMatt, 

Paul Statman

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## MontanaMatt

> Fairly recently I asked this same question … "that seems hard to play, is it?" (can't remember the player or the tune at the moment) but his answer was very motivating ..…_ "no, it's not hard to play at all, but it was pretty hard to learn"._


I was searching for an answer...your quote helped me answer.
Tim O.- The High Road 
And Bryan Sutton- Whipper Snapper.
Both were hard to learn, but are loads of fun to play.

Also, anything in Bflat, not fun for me.

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David Lewis

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## Mark Gunter

> Also, anything in Bflat, not fun for me.


I suppose that includes Gm then? I love to play in Gm, just not any good at it yet.

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David Lewis

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## soliver

Still struggle with Blackberry Blossom.

Agreed... Bflat sucks on mandolin.

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David Lewis

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## Ivan Kelsall

The 2 mandolin instrumentals that i simply 'had to learn' were '' Eighth of February'' by John Reischman, & the mandolin 'classic' by Herschel Sizemore ''Rebecca''. I'd learned to play Rebecca on banjo after hearing Jim Mills play it. It's such a terrific melody that when i came to mandolin it was at the top of my ''have to play it'' list.

  I can't however say if they were 'hard' tunes to play,but simply a tad tricky to learn by ear. I broke them down into seactions,learned each one, then strung them together. 

    'Brilliancy'' - I've heard 'of it',but never actually heard it.I must look it up,although these days,i concentrate more on playing back up & trying to come up with decent solos to songs. I wasted far too much time learning banjo instrumentals & then never playing them anywhere,forgetting them & then going on the the next one ad nauseum,to start to do the same on mandolin - but the odd 'challenge' might make life interesting,
                                                              Ivan :Wink:

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Bill Foss, 

David Lewis, 

Rob Ross, 

Toycona

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## Frankdolin

The song I'm trying to learn now.

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David Lewis, 

George R. Lane, 

mugbucket, 

Paul Statman

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## Bill McCall

Tom Bekeny’s solo on Panhandle Rag, from the Kathy Kallick album.  The rhythm, phrasing and fingering are plenty challenging.  We don’t have to talk about speed.

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## Bill Slovin

I'd say the hardest tunes I know are the Choro piece Desvairada, Bach's Dm Gigue, and another Choro called O Voo da Mosca (The Flight of the Fly).  I also spent a bunch of time learning the lead and harmony parts for Brilliancy and those are pretty tough too especially when pushing up the tempo.

I agree with what many people have said here which is that you can make any tune hard.  Just listen to Mark O'Connor play Boil Them Cabbage Down.

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Papawooly, 

Toycona

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## UsuallyPickin

Thanks I had forgotten about this Reischman tune. He always gets my foot tapping. R/

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Ivan Kelsall

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## MikeZito

The hardest thing I can play in an A-minor scale . . . 

Yeah, I am a pretty pathetic mandolin player - but at least I have fun!

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George R. Lane

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## Bruce Clausen

> In 2011 I learned the mandolin accompaniment to the one aria in Mozarts opera Don Giovanni that features mandolin. I had to memorize it because I was on stage in the character of a street musician who is paid by Don G to help him woo a maid with song. I did two shows with an opera company in Albany.


That does sound hard to do well.  I played that bit on a run in Vancouver way back, but was fortunately sitting comfortably, reading the part in the pit while an actor on stage pretended to play on a prop mandolin.  No acting, and no costume or make-up.

Also used to play in a band that did Spain and Armando's Rumba.  Fun tunes to solo on, but with some tricky bits in the head.  Then there are tunes that are easy to play but really hard (for me) to solo over;  I never got comfortable with Moment's Notice by Coltrane, let alone Giant Steps.

The hardest tune I've played a lot on mandolin is probably Um a Zero by Pixinguinha.  It's longish and relentless and moves pretty fast, and you really are supposed to get all the notes, unlike the situation with a lot of jazz tunes, where you can make your own version.  (I did a quartet recording of it 10 or so years ago using my Mowry mandolin, and I see Andrew still has the clip up on his website, on the Listen page.)

On guitar my toughest assigment was the opera The Lighthouse by Peter Maxwell Davis, 80 minutes of non-stop playing.  Fiercely complex and difficult music, but very great.

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Mark Gunter

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## David Lewis

> The hardest thing I can play in an A-minor scale . . . 
> 
> Yeah, I am a pretty pathetic mandolin player - but at least I have fun!


The main point of any musical endeavour. To have fun

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Jess L., 

Paul Statman

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## Jess L.

> In all seriousness, its all hard for me.


Wouldn't know it by your playing,  :Smile:  the videos you've posted sound pretty darn good.  :Mandosmiley:  

Of course we don't know how hard you may have had to work at making those tunes sound good, and how many hours of practice might have went into it. 

But I guess that's part of being a truly good musician, is the appearance of effortless ease where the musician can make everything _look_ easy, even when it might have been a real challenge to learn. 

(Off-topic side note: I suppose the exception to that last paragraph would be how some prominent rock guitarists do, maybe I'm misinterpreting their actions but it seems like they intentionally *exaggerate* the difficulty, with gratuitous high-up-the-neck fretboard gymnastics as if they're trying to wow non-musician audiences who see it and think, "OMG that person must be a *really* good musician because look at how difficult that _looks_!" Gotta say that seeing flashy visuals just doesn't do anything for me, if anything it's kind of a turn-off because it just looks like grandstanding which makes me suspicious that maybe they're not as talented as people think they are, but obviously crowds seem to love it and I guess if a musician is trying to make money selling tickets that's one way to do it. And no it's not sour grapes or jealousy on my part, I *can* play that way (on electric guitar anyway, haven't tried it on mandolin) but most of the time I see no merit in doing so unless it improves the actual *sound*. But I digress.)  :Whistling:  





> *"Hardest*" is a rather relative term. Is it the basic tune itself, or what a player does to/with it?
> 
> Even the _simplest_ and/or _slowest_ of tunes can _become difficult_ if/when the advanced finesse and articulation elements/techniques are incoprporated: slurring, bending, vibrato, harmonic chiming, across-the strings melodic crosspicking, ornamentation, working the entire neck, volume/tone dymanics, doublestops, split-string, playing a simultaneous harmony line(s), muting, adding in backup chords behind the lead line, etc. etc.
> 
> ... Capturing the vocal nuances of a great vocalist can be just as difficult as playing any high-speed barn-burner, imo ...


Agree totally. 

It's one thing to blast through a tune at warp speed and hit all the right notes. That's a phase that everyone has to go through. In my own playing, it took me a good long time (years)  :Disbelief:  to even realize that there was more beyond just "playing the notes".  :Redface:  

But trying to take it to the next level, finally realizing that there's a whole 'nother aspect to it - the subtle expressive nuance stuff that truly brings the music to life - starts a whole new round of _"How do they do that, I must learn how to do that!"_.  :Grin:  

And (IMO) that's a *good* thing, because without new stuff to learn, music wouldn't be any fun. 

It's good to always something on the horizon to aim for. 

I think that even for many pro musicians, there isn't a point at which they think they've "arrived" (done everything there is to do, nothing left to learn), rather it's just a constant pursuit of different levels of excellence. 

So the question of difficulty, is an interesting one because there are so many possible angles to it.

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## Daniel Nestlerode

> (I would like to be able to replicate Etta James' phrasing/intonation/etc of _"At Last"_ on the flute!  Or maybe come close to Sandy Denny on some of her stuff.  Capturing the vocal nuances of a great vocalist can be just as difficult as playing any high-speed barn-burner, imo)


Niles, your postscript reminded me of Jeff Beck's instrumental work.  He's inspired by south Asian singers who use microtones.  Slurs his notes both with left hand bends and judicious use of the vibrato arms on his Strats.  Now THAT's hard!   :Smile: 

To answer the question for myself:
Yardbird Suite as arranged by Don Stiernberg.  I've never quite mastered it.

Daniel

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John Soper, 

mandocrucian

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## Doc Ivory

For me its Bach.
I do persist to make it sound clean and smooth but perhaps that will be forever illusive.
I'll keep tryin' though!

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DavidKOS, 

Paul Statman

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## Toycona

I saw that someone put "8th of February" by John Reischman. I wrestled with that for years. I also have wrangled with "Song for Tom Morrow" by Vasen. Both of those are technically challenging songs for me. A traditional song that really challenges is "Jerusalem Ridge." I've played that on and off for years, and if I wait too long, it feels like starting over. Regarding ear training on tough tunes,  once I gave up tabs (thanks to a Marla Fibish class), I learn things more quickly by ear. They stay in my head and under my fingers more readily.

But above all, have fun!

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## Drew Streip

Ironically, some of the harder-_sounding_ tunes tend to be easier to play, because they're often built around scales or arpeggios, but played at a challenging tempo. 

"Brilliancy" is one of the few tunes I can play proficiently all the way through, solo, with some embellishments, _and_ make it sound like music. 

Early Chris Thile tunes (Jessamyn's Reel, Ah Spring, Ode to a Butterfly) also qualify on the "A" parts but most of the "B" parts are lacking.

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## Chris Pritchett

Have a go at 'Flippen'

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## mandocrucian

*"To shred, or to sing,..... that... is the question."*

Would you prefer the *"blue pill"* or the *"red"* ?



But, you can always opt for a *purple* cap (of various shades) instead.

NH

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## catmandu2

> Niles, your postscript reminded me of Jeff Beck's instrumental work.  He's inspired by south Asian singers who use microtones.  Slurs his notes both with left hand bends and judicious use of the vibrato arms on his Strats.  Now THAT's hard!


(Not mndln-related, but...)

I have a congruent observation to this.  Taking up trad Chinese music (on guzheng), I found - even though much of the music is what we'd call "slow" - it is "difficult" indeed...perhaps as difficult as any other form ive played in respects.  It is this aspect you cite - (Eng) portamentos, slurs, and various ornaments - that are accentuated in traditional Asian forms.  Emanating from vocal traditions, these idioms and instruments like the long zithers, dan bau, and of course winds, etc, highly emulate vocal properties, "lyrical" effects, etc., and in essence afford an infinite (continuous) variety of pitches, and embellishments.  A very old, deep tradition.  

*and as well, why I love Jeff Beck.  And why a strat is an eminently superlative instrument :Smile:

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## derbex

Arrangements wot I wrote -I seem to have developed a knack for taking a simple tune and turning it into a finger buster. Any pretence that it's to show off my virtuosic  playing is quick dispelled when I pick up the mandolin, they often sound good in Musescore though.

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## catmandu2

Oh, in case it wasn't clear  - in my allusion: the "hard" part is inherent in a form with such affinity with song/singing and the infinite subtle inflections of vocalization.

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## Mark Gunter

> (I would like to be able to replicate Etta James' phrasing/intonation/etc of _"At Last"_ ... Capturing the vocal nuances of a great vocalist can be just as difficult as playing any high-speed barn-burner, imo)


+1 
I'd love to get the soul of _At Last_ or _I'd Rather Go Blind_ whether in vocals or on any instrument.

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## Jon Hall

Any song with a smooth measured tremolo and closed position fingering.

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## ImTheMan_do

I'm sure it's child's play for you vets, but I've been playing for a week and a day, and just got down whiskey before breakfast haha! learning all the time.

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## yankees1

Every tune is hard for me until I learn it ! What I lack in ability I have in determination and sticktoiveness ( no such word) !!!

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Paul Statman

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## ralph johansson

> 'Brilliancy'' - I've heard 'of it',but never actually heard it.I must look it up,although these days,i concentrate more on playing back up & trying to come up with decent solos to songs. I wasted far too much time learning banjo instrumentals & then never playing them anywhere,forgetting them & then going on the the next one ad nauseum,to start to do the same on mandolin - but the odd 'challenge' might make life interesting,
>                                                               Ivan



Brilliancy is a fiddle tune in the key of A, in three parts, popularized by Howdy Forrester. It's composed of parts from two traditional hornpipes, Passaic and Trafalgar (as I found out from the collection 1000 Fiddle Tunes). I heard Forrester's version (with Jimmy Riddle on piano) on the radio in 1960 and thought it was the prettiest tune I'd heard. So I looked up Forrester's LP in the Schwann catalog and ordered it from a local record store. It took about half a year to get it. I transcribed it in 1965 and the awkward string crossings on the guitar were my main motive for taking up the mandolin (incidentally, the second part  depends on having an open e string available) in 1967. I used to know it pretty well to the point of recording it with a four piece bluegrass band in 1969. However, the most difficult piece on Forrester's LP is High Level Hornpipe, not because of the key (Bb), but the lack of rests. 

The most difficult piece I used to know (I haven't played it in many years) is "Artistry", a rag that I composed 50 years ago: https://www.mandohangout.com/myhangou

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Paul Statman

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## ralph johansson

[QUOTE=ralph johansson;1680485]Brilliancy is a fiddle tune in the key of A, in three parts, popularized by Howdy Forrester. It's composed of parts from two traditional hornpipes, Passaic and Trafalgar (as I found out from the collection 1000 Fiddle Tunes). I heard Forrester's version (with Jimmy Riddle on piano) on the radio in 1960 and thought it was the prettiest tune I'd heard. So I looked up Forrester's LP in the Schwann catalog and ordered it from a local record store. It took about half a year to get it. I transcribed it in 1965 and the awkward string crossings on the guitar were my main motive for taking up the mandolin (incidentally, the second part  depends on having an open e string available) in 1967. I used to know it pretty well to the point of recording it with a four piece bluegrass band in 1969. However, the most difficult piece on Forrester's LP is High Level Hornpipe, not because of the key (Bb), but the lack of rests. 

The most difficult piece I used to know (I haven't played it in many years) is "Artistry", a rag that I composed 50 years ago: 
https://www.mandohangout.com/myhango...c.asp?id=22331

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## sbhikes

Been working on Farewell Waltz (Doc Roberts) for a long long time.

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## LadysSolo

Most classical pieces I've tried have one movement I find (relatively) easy and two movements where I go "Huh?!?" so I keep working and working..... I've recently tried some more Celtic works, those are fun challenges but manageable. Bach is really stretching my abilities, but stretch I must if I want to get better! And jam pieces (mostly chords) are fun to keep me thinking I am getting somewhere unless (as has been mentioned) they are playing in Bb! LOL!!  :Mandosmiley:

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## Paul Statman

They all get easier with repetition, and some that I still really enjoy after cracking them and were among my go-to 'exercises':

Flickin' My Pick (in Aɓ) - Jethro Burns 'Back To Back'
16..16  (just the opening lines) - Dawg 'Hot Dawg'
The Open Road - Bela Fleck 'Drive'

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## Bill Findley

As of right now, it’s Section 2 of Chen’s Standard Notation for the Tab-Addicted Mandolinist and Etude 1 of Aaron Weinstein’s Mandolin Chord Melody System.

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## mandos&turtles

I'd say the most challenging piece I can currently play is the first movement from Fantasia No. 4 by Georg Phillip Telemann TVW40:17

My fiance is a classical violinist, we're working on Bach's Concerto for Two Violins in D minor. Its fun to play but like any Bach piece its a tough nut to crack

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## yankees1

All songs that I learn are difficult due to beginning to play at 64 years of age and no musical ability !! But, at almost 72 I have stuck to it !

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Jess L., 

Mark Gunter, 

Mark Wilson, 

Paul Statman

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## Nol

> In all seriousness, its all hard for me.


Try Horse with no name... only two cords...

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## Mark Gunter

> Try Horse with no name... only two cords...


I play (after a fashion) Jack Danielson's reel, which is only two chords. Also, I recently recorded Chuck Berry's _You Never Can Tell_ with acoustic guitar and mandolin (watch it here) which also has only two chords. I've never played _Horse With No Name_ in my life, but  it is a cool sounding tune when America plays it; who knows, I may try  that one some day. But I can almost guarantee that it won't be easy for  me, LOL.

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## Paul Statman

> I've never played _Horse With No Name_ in my life, but  it is a cool sounding tune when America plays it; who knows, I may try  that one some day. But I can almost guarantee that it won't be easy for  me, LOL.


Whether you think you can, or whether you think you can't - you're right!

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## Mark Gunter

> Whether you think you can, or whether you think you can't - you're right!


Thanks for the encouragement, mandopixie. Maybe I should explain, I've been playing music I want to play for over 50 years, mostly on guitar, and only picked up mandolin a few years ago. When I say that I've never played _A Horse With No Name_, really it's because I've never been inclined to. But I'm not knocking the song, it does have a good, easy-going sort of groove when I hear it on the radio. Who knows, I may try it someday.

Pretty much everything I've learned musically over the past 50 years has been hard. There are many things I can play maybe well enough to entertain people, and some of that is easy, but it was hard to get there. Learning to play a tune on the mandolin took me about 15 minutes the first time I picked one up, but it didn't sound very good, and everything I do or try to do now is hard to learn, or to polish, or to find a pleasing arrangement that suits me. But I am not saying that I can't play or that I think I can't play. I'm saying that, realistically, I'm not very good and I have to work at sounding better, and it's usually hard. I don't work at it nearly as much as I should, though that type of work is a joy when I do it.

I agree 100% with your assessment: If you believe you can do it and you persevere in the attempt, you're likely to succeed. If you believe you can't do it, you've already mentally closed the doors on it.

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Jess L., 

Paul Statman

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## Paul Statman

Sounds like you're doing okay, Mark! It does get easier with time and practice, though - don't you find?  :Mandosmiley: 

"Never give up"!

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Mark Gunter

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## Mark Gunter

:Wink:

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Paul Statman

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## marbelizer

The hardest ones that I can play up to speed are by Ronnie McCoury Baltimore Johnny and Quicksburg Rendezvous. No where near as clean as Ronnie picks of course. It always helps with difficult tunes to be warmed up, in the groove and have the right amount of beer. But that's just me.

God bless ya'll with your Bach. I got over that when I was a kid taking piano lessons. I love listening to classical music on mandolin though so beautiful. What the instrument was designed to do.

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## Jess L.

> ... It does get easier with time and practice, though - don't you find?


Except... for me anyway, for each new tune learned, it often involves some new level of skill required to make the tune sound right. 

So I'm still having to work at things. (Been plinking around on stringed instruments since the age of 2 1/2 and that was a *long* time ago! Dinosaurs  :Wink:  'n' all... but then later as an adult I went for many years without playing at all, so still having to do some catch-up.)

I seldom even bother learning 'easy' tunes anymore, instead I choose pieces that challenge me a little bit in some way, so that (a) I have something new to learn, and (b) I don't get bored. 

So for most everything I learn nowadays, the learning process still isn't a whole lot easier than it ever was, because the difficulty level gets higher as I go along. 

That is a choice, however. I personally enjoy the process. 

A side-effect of that approach, is that one's skill level gradually improves over time, a little bit at a time, and it's not "work" but more in the "fun" category. 

But each *next* new challenge/tune is still going to require a bit of effort to make it all work right. Then on to the next one after that, and so on. 

One gets to make actual _music_  :Mandosmiley:  in the process, and occasionally some of it even still sounds ok years later. (Assuming that one records their efforts, as a learning tool.)

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Paul Statman

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## JeffD

> I suppose the exception to that last paragraph would be how some prominent rock guitarists do, maybe I'm misinterpreting their actions but it seems like they intentionally *exaggerate* the difficulty, with gratuitous high-up-the-neck fretboard gymnastics as if they're trying to wow non-musician audiences who see it and think, "OMG that person must be a *really* good musician because look at how difficult that _looks!"_


Its kind of funny to see the same uber musician on his instructional video, where he is playing all these licks with a contented smile, graceful fingers, as if its as easy as drinking water. 

Its all an act.

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## JeffD

> I seldom even bother learning 'easy' tunes anymore, instead I choose pieces that challenge me a little bit in some way, so that (a) I have something new to learn, and (b) I don't get bored.


Some things are easier to learn than others, especially if you are well versed in the genre. Another Irish hornpipe is relatively easy to learn after having played so many Irish  hornpipes in the past. The tradition helps fill in the gaps.

But all that said, I do not, and have not, pursued anything for its difficulty (or ease), in a long time. And i think most of us are more or less like this, we pursue a tune because of how great or beautiful the tune is. We may differ on what is great or what is beautiful, but I believe most of us use some aesthetic criteria to motivate us, as opposed to difficulty or ease.

A striking example or two (blasphemy warning). I won't spend time learning Brilliancy. I could spend a lot of energy and get it down reasonably well, but at the end of the day what do I have? A show off tune that is not all that pretty (to me), and is a signature tune of someone else. So those that know the tune will know I ain't no Sam Bush, and those that don't know the tune will say, wow what an athletic performance. Who is he trying to impress? 

Bill Monroe's Rawhide. is another example for the exact same reasons.

Sam and Bill have done, IMO, much more musical, pretty, and inspiring music than this, and I would much rather pursue those. At least, if its difficult, in pursuit you are obtaining something beautiful.

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Ivan Kelsall

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## JeffD

> (I would like to be able to replicate Etta James' phrasing/intonation/etc of _"At Last" on the flute! Or maybe come close to Sandy Denny on some of her stuff. Capturing the vocal nuances of a great vocalist can be just as difficult as playing any high-speed barn-burner, imo)_


Getting Etta James' vocal style is a difficulty worth pursuing!!!! And that is where one can really perceive the expressive limits of the mandolin. A violin could come a lot closer. (Mind you, the expressive limits, and every other limit to the mandolin are so far from my ability that I might as well say the mandolin has infinite abilities. You can't measure the difference between unobtainable by me, and unobtainable even in theory.)

I heard a master class by I think Isaac Stern. He talked about getting inspiration from vocal stylings, as opposed to only emulating great violinists. I think this is even more important with we mandolinners. There is a creeping sameness in our playing, that is IMO to me and YMMV, a sameness that is kind of off putting.

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## JuddTaylor

Some Chris Thile thing I learned a long time ago. I can't even remember the name of it. It's a real finger twister. 

I play Sam's brilliancy a lot too, but mostly because it's so damn fun, Thile stuff is harder for me.

EDIT: Just looked it up: Bittersweet Reel.

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## Jess L.

> ...But all that said, I do not, and have not, pursued anything for its difficulty (or ease), in a long time. And i think most of us are more or less like this, we pursue a tune because of how great or beautiful the tune is. We may differ on what is great or what is beautiful, but I believe most of us use some aesthetic criteria to motivate us, as opposed to difficulty or ease. ...


I guess I didn't explain myself well enough. I wasn't referring to finger gymnastics or show-off stuff, but rather the intricacies (however that's spelled) & the nuance & detail and, most importantly to me, the expression. If the expression isn't right, even a physically simple tune won't sound good. That's what I meant by pursuing difficulty. It *is* all about the sound, I agree.  :Smile:

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## OneChordTrick

> Try Horse with no name... only two cords...


2 chords, thats twice as hard as I can manage  :Grin: 

Been playing seriously for 18 months and Ive almost mastered* Callums Road

* meaning that a sympathetic listener wouldnt cover their ears and would be able to identify the tune without looking at my score.

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## ralph johansson

> I was searching for an answer...your quote helped me answer.
> Tim O.- The High Road 
> And Bryan Sutton- Whipper Snapper.
> Both were hard to learn, but are loads of fun to play.
> 
> Also, anything in Bflat, not fun for me.


I'm puzzled by this -- if the difficulty of a few songs ("anything" suggests several songs) lay in the key, and you actually learned those songs, wouldn't that mean that you overcame that difficulty? Because, as Paul Anastasio once said, there really are no difficult keys, only unfamiiar ones. Personally I admit that I'm not that much at home in the key of Db but that's simply because of lack of material. I do play one song in that key, "I saw mommy kissing Santa Claus", and I sometimes enjoy improvising a blues in just about any key. 

I never studied the mandolin as systematically as the guitar, which I approached 
key by key, Bb being the fourth (C,F,G,Bb,D, Eb, etc.) -- on mandolin, after ten years of guitar, I just started playing. I've written at least two originals in Bb, one of them using the open d a lot,  and there are several tunes that work particularly well  in that key, such as Sailor's Hornpipe (much easier than A!!), Slow Poke (Chilton Price), and  Zambesi. Once you try these tunes you will understand why.

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Paul Statman

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## Bertram Henze

I don't know if hardest is the right word. Tunes fall into three categories for me:
- those that are so easy I can play them as they are within a week (Give me something like Wise Maid any day)
- those that I have to adapt to make them playable and then to practise a lot (Piper's Despair comes into mind)
- those that are so unplayable that I give up after 1 hour (Tommy's Tarbukas is the last of those I can remember)

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## LadysSolo

I have some I don't even bother trying - I can look at them and see that I am nowhere close to good enough to play them. So I put them away for another day (Years down the road....)

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## Mark Gunter

> I have some I don't even bother trying - I can look at them and see that I am nowhere close to good enough to play them. So I put them away for another day (Years down the road....)


You've hit on one of the things that makes this question (thread title question) impossible for me to answer. There are a lot of difficult pieces I've begun learning over the past few years and _can't yet play on the mandolin_, but the question is, "What's the hardest tune you _can play on the mandolin._"

There are many, many tunes I can play on the mandolin and most of it was hard to learn, easy to play once learned, and very difficult to improve musically with all the nuance I desire. So there just is no honest way to answer this question as asked other than to say it's all been hard for me. I can honestly say that most days I can play nothing at all well on the mandolin, and occasionally I can play some things well, especially if having fun playing with others or performing for someone solo _with no recording being made._

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Paul Statman

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## AaronWeinstein

> As of right now, its Section 2 of Chens Standard Notation for the Tab-Addicted Mandolinist and Etude 1 of Aaron Weinsteins Mandolin Chord Melody System.


Yay!!

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Bill Findley

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## AlanN

> Some Chris Thile thing I learned a long time ago. 
> EDIT: Just looked it up: Bittersweet Reel.


Lovely tune, and yep, hard to pick. Another one is Wild Fiddler's Rag, from the pick of Alan Bibey. It is, as Jethro would say, a bear.

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## Paul Statman

I just read this in the comments section of an inspiration and gratitude site:

I teach piano lessons. When Students bring in music that most people could not play because it is so hard, I realize to maintain my student's perception of me being able to teach them, I need to play this very hard music with ease. So I say to myself, this is easy. My brain speeds up and makes it easy. If I keep the point of view that it is hard, my brain slows down and actually makes it almost impossible to play. I often give my students very hard pieces of music and they cannot play it. I tell them to change their lie from, "This is hard", to "This is easy", and their brain speeds up and makes it easy, and then they can play the music with no problem. The music is really neither hard or easy. It is merely the meaning we give to it, which in turn controls the speed that our brain processes the notes.

This 'changing the lie' I have been using for ten years and it works fantastically well for me and my students. I use this in many other situations and it works for me like real magic.
- William Young

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## Nol

> In all seriousness, its all hard for me.


Ditto

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## Ranald

I've been working for many moons on Scott Joplin's "The Entertainer" from Janet Davis's book. It has four parts, all with tricky syncopated rhythms. I have the first part, which most people know, committed to memory. I can play the second part, but haven't memorized it yet. As for the next two... ask me next year. Part of my issue is that I like to play everything in my repertoire without reading music, while others might be happy to read. So "The Entertainer" is the most difficult piece of music that I can't play. On the other hand, I can recall struggling through tunes bar by bar, trying to get the changes and timing, though I can play them reasonably well now. As the man said when someone exclaimed, That must be hard to play: "No, but it was hard to learn."

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## Joel Glassman

I found parts of Chorinho Pra Ele by Hermeto to be impossible.
The "John Coltrane plays Choro" part  :Disbelief: 
Here it is with Hamilton, who does a great job of course.

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Paul Statman

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## Tom Wright

> I found parts of Chorinho Pra Ele by Hermeto to be impossible...


I have never in my life been able to play as fast as Hamilton does in that video, on any instrument, but it might be worthwhile to learn that piece. We recently were playing Pascoals  Bebe at our jazz workshop.

What is the best source for the sheet music of that tune?

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## Joel Glassman

Search Google and hit the "images" button. 
I never tried to play the double-time passages in that tune.
The clarinet player did it with ease...

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## Tom Wright

> I never tried to play the double-time passages in that tune. The clarinet player did it with ease...


I found the chart at Scribd.

I can probably get the 32nd note bars up to speed after some work because they are kind of scale-like and each bar is the same as the previous one for fingering convenience (up a minor third each time). Im already close, but what blows my mind is Hamilton playing the main body of the choro at double time. Never, ever, and few in the world could come close to that, I think.

Im working on Dudu Maias Turuna, a very arpeggiating choro waltz, like O Voo da Mosca but with wild jumps. Because Dudu posts some sheet music for free download Ill offer it  you might like working on this. I included some fingerings that help with the large leaps.

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## Joel Glassman

Thanks Tom--
I find choro based on arpeggiated figures to be the best technical
practice. Its also much more melodically interesting than the usual exercises.
Will check this out.

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