# Music by Genre > Old-Time, Roots, Early Country, Cajun, Tex-Mex >  Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

## Jim Nollman

http://dwightdiller.com/links/why-bl...-not-the-same/

----------

Anglocelt, 

DavidKOS, 

Gelsenbury, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## Gelsenbury

Interesting! The blog is obviously making a partisan argument rather than making any attempt at detached objectivity, but precisely because of this passionate advocacy it gives the reader a feel of the emotion going into the music. 

I don't know much about either Bluegrass or Oldtime, so I found it very interesting. Some sound examples would be useful.

----------

DavidKOS, 

lflngpicker, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## DavidKOS

> Interesting! The blog is obviously making a *partisan argument* rather than making any attempt at detached objectivity, but precisely because of this passionate advocacy it gives the reader a feel of the emotion going into the music. 
> 
> I don't know much about either Bluegrass or Oldtime, so I found it very interesting. Some sound examples would be useful.


" The fine art of oldtime guitar backup or even of oldtime bands without continuous chordal backup of any kind has given way to the heavy thumping sound and rhythmic geometry ( Dwight’s squared off meters) of plucked bass and bluegrass guitar tempo favored by modernized clog dancers and festival jams and groove music."

You think?

----------

Jess L., 

Mark Gunter

----------


## Mike Snyder

Bluegrass musicians use the tune to show off their musicianship. Old Time musicians use their musicianship to show off the tune.

----------

Anglocelt, 

Caleb, 

chuck3, 

DataNick, 

David L, 

Denman John, 

fentonjames, 

George R. Lane, 

Jess L., 

Jim Garber, 

Jim Nollman, 

JLewis, 

JRG, 

lflngpicker, 

Mark Gunter, 

MikeZito, 

Shelagh Moore, 

Steve VandeWater, 

Timbofood, 

yankees1

----------


## Jim Garber

I like both but play OT. I am not sure what that quote that David posts means. Guitar backup is relatively modern. Earlier would be primarily fiddle and banjo.

Frankly I love all music played with soul. I love the square tunes, round tunes, trapezoidal and crooked. It’s all good.

----------

George R. Lane, 

jpugh, 

lflngpicker, 

Mark Gunter, 

Scott Rucker

----------


## Chris Daniels

While I enjoy playing both within my limited repertoire and certainly have no expertise in either 'old time' or bluegrass, I do enjoy reading and learning about music in all forms so found this an interesting if academic opinion piece.

But, in remembrance of our most recent BG genre dustup (a mild one indeed out of the innuerable multitude), this line nearly made me spit coffee all over my screen: "So an alternative inclusive cover name for bluegrass derived genres is a non-issue for bluegrass."

Seriously?

C.

----------


## Charlieshafer

> Interesting! The blog is obviously making a partisan argument rather than making any attempt at detached objectivity, but precisely because of this passionate advocacy it gives the reader a feel of the emotion going into the music. 
> 
> I don't know much about either Bluegrass or Oldtime, so I found it very interesting. Some sound examples would be useful.


I didn't think there was anything partisan about it. He was simply trying, pretty effectively, to differentiate the two. I do see what his main premise is, though, and that's to avoid lumping forms under one umbrella. That's easy to see that we on the Cafe do that all the time, trying to find what the essence of bluegrass is vs. the new alternative stuff. The trad bluegrassers don't consider it bluegrass, and they're absolutely right, it's not. The urge to put things under an umbrella is one of two things: either a function of folks who need to sell cd's or tickets, or musicology purists who like the historical aspect of the music of their choice, and want to make sure everyone knows it's history. 

There was some post on another thread where a point was trying to be made that they don't sit around an bluegrass late night jams and play Thile's tunes, as if they were unmemorable or uninteresting. That post is missing the point in that Thile doesn't play bluegrass. I wouldn't expect a campground jam at a bluegrass festival to be playing Stravinsky, or working on their Gregorian Chant repertoire, either. That's why the fear of trying to homogenize everything is unfounded. Everyone protects their musical boundaries. Way too much for my liking, but that's just the way I like to listen and play, and not everyone else's.

I think I disagree with him on one point, though. He stated that bluegrass was firmly rooted in Scrugg's style banjo, or Keith, etc. I'm taking this to mean that the individual musicians were key to the sound, and that no deviation was acceptable (to a degree...). I find that every idiom has it's hard-core proponents. he mentions Koken banjo playing in old time, but that's not a great example, as Walt was one of the hippie dudes in the '70's influenced by the old guys. Old-time hard-core followers are absolutely slaves to the main guys, like a Wade Ward, a Tommy Jarrell, etc. My own son is in this camp, playing tunes from old '78's, and able to play the same tune 4-5 different ways, knowing exactly what recording, by date and studio, where each version came from. When he and his jam partners get together, it's not "Let's play Tune X," it;s "Let's play the August 11, 1937 version of tune X as played by Sunscreen Flipbox on the Okeh label."

Irish trad players, same thing. So we're all creatures of our own personal preferences, and of our own personalities' predilections for how we follow and play. I don't think the author needs to worry about any big lumped-in umbrella..

----------

Bob Visentin, 

Chris Daniels, 

DataNick, 

doublestoptremolo, 

jpugh, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## Jim Garber

I wonder how old these posts were that Allen Feldman made. They were all posted on Banjo-L, a listserv. Dwight Diller does not mention a date on these. 

When I first started playing OT music there was a real divide between OT and bluegrass and few players would be caught dead playing the other genres. Over the last few years there has been a mixing of the players. I know of a few bluegrass banjo players who switched over to playing clawhammer. Our jam session has a few bluegrass players learning old time fiddle. Mike Compton, considered by many to be the inheritor of Monroe-style mandolin playing has also been called an old time player. 

I honestly think that most folks don't care and play the music they want in the manner they want.

----------

allenhopkins, 

DavidKOS, 

jpugh, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

I own and cherish a copy of Allen Feldman's Northern Fiddler and consider it an important book about some of the history of Irish fiddling of Donegal. It's a must read, but unfortunately, long out of print. I admire Feldman for authoring it.

But that blog post made up from his online ramblings, I'm sorry. That's a long-winded pile of soapbox bunk. Musical elitism at its finest, looking down the nose of those _other_ inferior types of music. Music is always moving, always changing. His beloved old-time is not even close to what it was in the 1920s. Sorry, much of it too has been Nashville'ized. He lost me at "oldtime music stands against homogenization." Oh, an entire genre defined by who? Cranky 70 and 80 year old internet keyboard jockeys, or the old-time playing kids that will graduate from Berklee College of Music? Or the ones playing it that grew up listening to NSYNC?

Where can one apply to regain the 10 minutes lost reading that?

Carry on.

----------

Charlieshafer, 

David L, 

GrooverMcTube, 

Mando Mort, 

Mark Gunter, 

Paul Kotapish, 

Scott Rucker, 

SincereCorgi, 

Timbofood

----------


## ralph johansson

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/e...awing-the-Line

----------


## doublestoptremolo

I thought it was a pretty good article. I like this part: 

"I, for one, do not accept the myth that bluegrass is the lineal descendent of oldtime music. Rather, bluegrass is a modern very urbanized genre, connected to the 1930s-50s industrialization of rural Southerners, that drew on a diversity of musical genres that
were available through radio and phonograph such as oldtime, western swing, gospel, big band jazz, blues, parlor songs, Hawaiian music, etc in order to create something new that expressed the experience of mountain folk in urban exile."
I think this is a good description of the problem I see with some bluegrassers' view of the history of the music. A lot of it comes from Monroe/Rinzler and a lot from the baby boomers who embraced the music in the 60s. It's the folk-ization of bluegrass, where it goes from a sub genre of country and western to "folk" music. 

Although ahistorical, it's probably also the only reason people are still into bluegrass today, why more people know about Bill Monroe than Red Foley and Floyd Tillman. I have the "Music of Bill Monroe" book from Rosenberg and Wolfe, which is exhaustively researched, well-written, and put out by a University Press, but there's no equivalent for Roy Acuff even though he sold tons more records. And the fiddling on Roy Acuff's 1940s and 50s recordings owe a lot more to old time than that on Monroe's records.

And this passage:

The social organization of the bluegrass band with its division between virtuoso soloist and backup musicians is a product of the mechanized era and of urban individualism. It is a product of mass media and of the proscenium stage (audience/performer divisions, frontstage/ backdrop divisions) where it was originally designed to be performed, or around the microphone the electronic acoustic equivalent of a proscenium stage. Bluegrass is a musical genre that is also a dramatic form with its soloist and chorus.
The thing is, I really like stage music. Bands where everybody dresses up, wears cowboy hats, plays a three-minute hillbilly pop song with short instrumental breaks for an audience. Nothing in that description reads as negative to me (maybe "virtuoso" - Monroe could be virtuosic but usually wasn't (maybe like 5% of his recorded breaks strike me as virtuosic), Ralph Stanley and Curly Sechler were good on their instruments but maybe not virtuoso). Popular country and western music is some of my favorite music. That's why I like Jimmy Martin, Jesse McReynolds, Bobby Osborne--they are just darned good country singers and they made great country records. I like these artists for the same reasons I like Porter Wagoner, George Strait, Dolly Parton, Hank Williams, Conway Twitty, Keith Whitley, etc. They're entertainers who did a great job of entertaining.

So I think the Bluegrass Creation Myth irks old-time partisans and gets in the way of appreciating bluegrass for what it really is and was.

----------

Bill McCall, 

jesserules

----------


## Roger Adams

"This stage-centered music can be contrasted to the very different *communalism of the oldtime session*, which was part of the Afro-Anglo-Celtic community barn, or kitchen and/or circle dance. Oldtime music’s anti-individualism is characterized by ensemble playing unison melody lines, or antiphonic call and response, forms in which back up instruments may be welcomed but are not essential and can readily be dispensed with, without diminishing the genre. *Tunes may not have a beginning or an end. Tommy Jarrell once described the circle as the effect he tried to reach in playing a fiddle tune, a melody that went round and round in an endless continuous curve."*

I enjoy OT music as well as BG, and personally see them as "brothers of the same mother."  I like to combine elements of the two in order to give texture and variety to some songs.  However, the "communalism" of OT, in my opinion, works poorly as a performance model.  The "endless continuous curve" of the fiddles sawing around in a seemingly endless circle simply numbs most folks, outside of a contra dance.

----------


## JeffD

> That's a long-winded pile of soapbox bunk. Musical elitism at its finest, looking down the nose of those _other_ inferior types of music. .


Yes!

There is a video that we were all sharing around, called "Why Old Time" that I thought did a good job of making distinctions without making speeches. I don't know what ever happened to that video.

----------


## DavidKOS

> Bluegrass musicians use the tune to show off their musicianship. Old Time musicians use their musicianship to show off the tune.


That also sounds like a prejudiced comment.




> I like both but play OT. I am not sure what that quote that David posts means. Guitar backup is relatively modern. Earlier would be primarily fiddle and banjo.


I was using a quote from the article to show how the writer had a bias against BG in favor of Old-time.

Of course, though, one must admit BG music is the deliberate, commercial product of highly professional musical entertainers, unlike Old-time music.

In my opinion, that's why it has been so popular.

----------


## Charlieshafer

The good thing about threads like this is they give you something to do if you're stuck in yet another nor'easter. Outside of that..

I was going to use the old "Old-time is meant for playing in groups just looking to have fun" thing, but then, so is bluegrass, and I have a trumpeter friend who plays New Orleans parade music with a bunch of guys for fun, my wife plays in a Baroque group that meets every Friday, for fun, I play in a stringboard/jazz group for fun, all of us play in some sort of weird mutant group that we go terrorize open mics, for fun. So the "playing together in a group for fun" thing is meaningless.

Another tenet of old-time is that's it's for dancing. But so's Irish, Scots, Baroque, blues, hip hop, so that doesn't work.

Maybe any given idiom exists strictly for discussion in forums, so we can all whine when some guy doesn't do this or that right, and applaud when this or that person does do something right, and pat ourselves on the back when we know the difference.

Basically, we're all the same nuts, we just landed in different bowls.

----------

bobby bill, 

DavidKOS

----------


## JeffD

> Bluegrass musicians use the tune to show off their musicianship. Old Time musicians use their musicianship to show off the tune.


There is truth to that. Bluegrass is more of a performance music, and solos and breaks to show the talent of the performers. 

Old time, at least traditionally, is not really a performance music. To my experience (and infinite pleasure) it has more of the porch about it than the stage, more about enjoying the moment than getting it exactly right for a recording. And working to make the moment with the tune something subline, infinite and fun.

There are, of course, exceptions and overlap. The biggest exception, to my mind, is the large increase in old time recording and old time performance. But I would think most folks with experience in both genres could agree on this distinction as being for the most part true.

Not bluegrass:

----------

DavidKOS, 

Jess L.

----------


## Jim Nollman

I detect a bit of anti-intellectualism in some of these comments. It reminds me of why we keep opinions about religion, politics, and bluegrass away from the dinner table.

The author starts from the premise that all great music is derivative. In this example, bluegrass marries the improvisational form of New Orleans jazz to the content of the old time tunes of Appalachia. And yes, certainly, other influences are flowing in this river as well. Or check out a similar discussion in the thread that does (or does not) connect old time to rags. It's the same discussion about musical genres, although ragtime clearly doesn't stir the same passions as bluegrass.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Charlieshafer

> I detect a bit of anti-intellectualism in some of these comments.


But isn't the intent of music we're discussing non-intellectual? Old time certainly was low country (as in worker, farmer, folks of "low intellect" as per the mill owners, plantation owners, bankers, city dandies, etc. Bluegrass certainly didn't come from the drawing boards of Vienna, or the Sutton Place brownstones of NYC. If anything, the temptation is to try to over-analyze everything. I don't think anyone is trying to be anti-intellectual; the whole point of the article in question was to show the roots or differences, and for that you need to go to the original intent. The phrasing you use to discuss the music can be as intellectual as you want, but the music itself isn;t, so perhaps ;looking at it from a non-intellectual view might be more intellectually enlightening.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Jim Nollman

Sure, old time music was decidedly non-intellectual. One irony is that most of the folks I seem to meet out here on the West Coast who live and breathe this music are all college educated. They are the same folks who, years ago, rediscovered country blues. 

Anti-intellectualism attacks opinions by attacking opinion-makers as never having lived in the so-called real world.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Gelsenbury

> Not bluegrass:


Inspiring! What a vivid example.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## JeffD

> I detect a bit of anti-intellectualism in some of these comments. It reminds me of why we keep opinions about religion, politics, and bluegrass away from the dinner table..


The refuge from all of this, from anti-intellectualism, from pseudo-intellectualism, and the rest of it, whether suspected, demonstrated, implied or inferred, is:

Playing the music. Its what we mandolinners can do. We can play the music.

Talking about the music is not playing the music.
Reading about the music is not playing the music.
Researching the history of the music is not playing the music.
Writing about the music is not playing the music.

We can play the music with friends with whom we have nothing to talk, nothing upon which we agree. And have such a wonderful intimate visiting and sharing experience, deeper than we could have if we had something to say.

Play the music. That is the important part. The rest is just a monkey chattering.

----------

DavidKOS, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## JeffD

> Inspiring! What a vivid example.


The lyrics tell you when to laugh. What else could 

"Ha, ha, ha, you and me,
Little brown jug, don't I love thee!"

possibly mean?

----------


## JeffD

Not bluegrass:




Is bluegrass:






Oh and I dearly dearly love both.

----------

George R. Lane, 

Jess L.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I was using a quote from the article to show how the writer had a bias against BG in favor of Old-time.


Oh, I know and I knew that you weren't saying that.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Jess L.

> ... I play in a stringboard/jazz group for fun, all of us play in some sort of weird mutant group that we go terrorize open mics, ...


 :Laughing:  Lol! That _does_ sound like fun!  :Smile: 




> ... Basically, we're all the same nuts, we just landed in different bowls.


Good one!  :Mandosmiley:   :Smile:

----------

Charlieshafer

----------


## ralph johansson

> Not bluegrass:


A nice illustration of the James-Lange theory of emotion. The fun is in the laughter.

----------


## Tom Wright

Bluegrass has always been about performance, about delivering a song with skill and virtuosity, to my understanding. 

The fiddle tunes we play for contra dances have a purpose: driving the dance, and genre purity is mainly ignored. Instrumentation is variable, plenty of amplification for large rooms, and we improvise plenty, both in melodic and harmonic ways, as well as adding various types of percussion. English Country Dance gets even farther from genre purity, mixing tunes from the 17th and 18th centuries with modern tunes written for the dancers. Instrumentation even more variable; clarinet, cello, flute, violin, mandolin, guitar, and always piano for both English and contra dances.

Isn't "Old-Time" just the social version of dance music? It's playing dance tunes without having to accommodate dancers.

Putting things another way: Bluegrass is a commercial venture, Old Time is a social activity, and playing dance music is utilitarian. The first two have reasons for rules of a sort, branding for bluegrass and style consistency for Old Time sessions. Jam sessions are their own world, with jazz jams being fairly open but still exhibiting some discrimination against some instruments or tunes.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## DavidKOS

> *English Country Dance gets even farther from genre purity*, mixing tunes from the 17th and 18th centuries with modern tunes written for the dancers. Instrumentation even more variable; clarinet, cello, flute, violin, mandolin, guitar, and always piano for both English and contra dances.


Man, you said a mouthful there!

----------


## doublestoptremolo

Bluegrass started as a commercial venture, and still is, but it also became something else. Bluegrass jams are social activities, and they're really what keeps the music going. A lot of people (myself included) like playing bluegrass more than listening to it being performed. That's why people go to weeklong bluegrass festivals and never go near the stage. I can think of maybe 5 to 10 bluegrass acts that I would be interested in paying to see. Just because bluegrass is marginally more commercially successful than old-time doesn't mean it's like a Steve Miller Band concert.

Performance? Virtuosity? Skill? Sorry, not many of the bluegrass jams I've been to. We suck just as much as the old timers do, probably more so, just in more keys.

I think one main reason that bluegrass _is_ marginally more commercially successful than old-time, though, is it has songs, which normal people (those that don't spend a lot of time on instrument forums) prefer. The comment about "tunes" above misses the point: bluegrass isn't really a tune music, it's a song music. You wouldn't know it from looking at the Monroe camp jam list or reading Mandolin Cafe, but Bill Monroe was a country singing star who played the occasional instrumental. Flatt and Scruggs were country stars. There's a reason _Master of Bluegrass_ and _Foggy Mountain Banjo_ go in and out of print--few people other than pickers want to listen to instrumentals. 

And--just my experience--it's easier to learn to play along to a vocal number than to a fiddle tune. Say you're jamming with some others and newbie who plays guitar but generally Pink Floyd, Zeppelin, etc. comes up and wants to join in. What's easier for him to play along to? Will the Circle be Unbroken, This Land is Your Land, Little Georgia Rose, Wagon Wheel--or Ducks on the Millpond, West Fork Gals, Katy Hill?

----------

Canuckle, 

Charlieshafer, 

DavidKOS, 

Jess L., 

Mark Gunter

----------


## doublestoptremolo

And just to clarify, I was referring to the older jam lists from the Monroe camp, like this one, with a lot of instrumentals only 15 mandolinists in the country know how to play: http://monroemandolincamp.com/wp-con...w-Jam-List.pdf. The newer list is more balanced, with actual songs.

Then there's this book, ostensibly for "the bluegrass mandolinist," but full of obscure tunes that stand about as much chance of being played at a bluegrass jam as "Billie Jean" or "The Girl from Impanema": http://www.louismartinmusicbmi.com/samples.htm

----------


## JeffD

> Isn't "Old-Time" just the social version of dance music? It's playing dance tunes without having to accommodate dancers.


I can go with that to a point. So much of the OT music I play is dance music, or dance forms, or was dance music in past times. But there are other sources for the tunes as well, and they get folded in. [I am not an ethno-musicologist, or a music historian. This is all just based on my listening a lot, and some reading.] For example there are more than a few tunes derived from popular music and songs of times long long past. Popular, political, military, regional and just plain goofy entertainment songs and music nobody ever danced to. And then all the crooked tunes, that cannot today be used for a dance. I don't think they are all just mutations and deformations of dance tunes, though some may be. And I am convinced that some tunes originated with some fiddler umpty ump decades past making a go at a theme from classical music.




> Putting things another way: Bluegrass is a commercial venture, Old Time is a social activity, and playing dance music is utilitarian.


While not rigorously true in every case, (so few things are) yea, I can go with that as a characterization. My only modification might be to change "commercial venture" to "performance activity". But I get what you mean.

At least in my experience, etc., etc.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## A 4

A while back, and I assume it was here on the Mandolin Cafe, I read about Todd Phillips album "In the Pines," which I thought was described as a very influential and early "progressive bluegrass" record.  So I listened to it, and one of my reactions was that "these are old-time fiddle tunes, just slowed way down and with a lot more notes added."  Maybe bluegrass and old-time are not the same, but progressive bluegrass and old-time are closer?  A lot of people nowadays, many who seem to be associated with Berklee, have at least a familiarity with old-time.

Looking it up now, I see "In the Pines" is 1995, which doesn't seem that early to me.  And no disrespect intended from my description above - it is fantastic.

----------


## allenhopkins

When did evolution give us this instinctive need to categorize everything?

If bluegrass is "stage music" -- which maybe is how it started, but not really _all_ it is now -- and old-time is "communal (living room/back porch) music, with no soloists and few songs (and no time limits on tunes), where do you put Charlie Poole?  Or the Skillet Lickers with their _"Corn Liquor Still"_ comedy skits?  Or Snuffy Jenkins, Mainer's Mountaineers, Dock Walsh and the Carolina Tar Heels?  All non-bluegrass (pre-bluegrass?) groups that put on stage shows, toured around as professional entertainers; I'd call them old-time musicians, based on style and repertoire, but developed well beyond the "communal" or even dance-band environment that the essayist contends is essential to old-time music.

Quite a few of those old-time bands whose music city-billy musicians try to emulate today, were professional groups organized by impresarios and "lead" musicians to perform for audiences, and to make recordings.  Old-time music, for many musicians of 70-90 years ago, was "stage music" to the extent that they could make a living performing it professionally.  They went on the radio, booked concerts, recorded 78's for Victor or Bluebird or Gennett, put out songbooks -- same thing that Bill Monroe would do ten or 20 years later.

So what's the difference now?  For one thing, commercial acceptance.  Bluegrass has had an audience -- one whose size has varied, but which never went away -- since Bill and Charile Monroe split and Bill formed the Blue Grass Boys.  Bluegrass on the Opry, the Wheeling Jamboree, at Bean Blossom and Fincastle, on Decca and Columbia Records.  It's spawned a host of amateur pickers, but also a host of professional and semi-pro performing bands, who can find audiences and make a little money, and release their own recordings.

Old-time performing groups, in contrast, found their audiences diminishing.  You might still get a tune from the Crook Brothers or Sam and Kirk Magee on the Opry, and festivals like Galax and Union Grove continued to feature old-time fiddle and fiddle bands, but old-time music became a _musician's_ style, one that emphasized people playing together in a non-performance setting.  Not that some of those musicians wouldn't have liked to draw an audience, make a record, get a radio spot -- but the opportunity wasn't there.

Until  the New Lost City Ramblers brought historical scholarship (I guess) and research into old-time music, both professional and amateur, from 30-40 years before, into live performance in the folk revival.  Which set off an old-time revival, as new bands of young musicians got together to perform old-time music professionally and semi-professionally.  Walt Koken's name was brought up; much of what grabbed me about old-time music came from listening to him and the rest of the Highwoods String Band 45 years ago.  So the stage-show approach of Charlie Poole and Gid Tanner gets recycled by the Red Clay Ramblers or the Sweets Mill String Band.

So now we still have professional old-time music, though much less than professional bluegrass music.  And we have groups of amateur old-time and bluegrass musicians who get together to play, in styles that are distinct but constantly demonstrate their similarity and past linkages.  What I love, is the willingness of so many musicians to play music that cuts across the categories.  I may go to what's labeled a "bluegrass jam" in a little western NY town, and hear musicians play _Angelina Baker,_ followed by _Whiskey Before Breakfast, Faded Love,_ and _Blackberry Blossom_ -- without caring that they're playing old-time, Celtic, Western swing, and bluegrass in some kind of music-tradition mash-up.  Categories be damned!

As for back-up guitar, the Old-Time Police should make all guitarists emulate Riley Puckett, and play bass runs with their fingers.  No more flat-picks!

----------

bobby bill, 

Canuckle, 

DavidKOS, 

doublestoptremolo, 

John Lloyd, 

ralph johansson

----------


## JeffD

> As for back-up guitar, the Old-Time Police should make all guitarists emulate Riley Puckett, and play bass runs with their fingers.  No more flat-picks!


Amen!

----------

allenhopkins

----------


## Jack Roberts

> ....Performance? Virtuosity? Skill? Sorry, not many of the bluegrass jams I've been to. We suck just as much as the old timers do, probably more so, just in more keys.....


Ouch!  That will leave a mark...

----------


## foldedpath

> Performance? Virtuosity? Skill? Sorry, not many of the bluegrass jams I've been to. We suck just as much as the old timers do, probably more so, just in more keys.


Irish trad sessions can suck just as much as OldTime or Bluegrass jams. We just call them "modes" instead of keys. It gives the guitar player a little more excuse for being confused.

----------

Charlieshafer, 

Jess L.

----------


## yankees1

> Bluegrass musicians use the tune to show off their musicianship. Old Time musicians use their musicianship to show off the tune.


 Beautifully said !

----------


## Jess L.

> ... What I love, is the willingness of so many musicians to play music that cuts across the categories. ...


I like that too.  :Mandosmiley:  It's enjoyable to play, _and_ to listen to. (IMO) 




> ... Performance? Virtuosity? Skill? Sorry, not many of the bluegrass jams I've been to. We suck just as much as the old timers do, probably more so, just in *more keys*. ...





> Irish trad sessions can suck just as much as OldTime or Bluegrass jams. We just call them "modes" instead of keys. It gives the guitar player a little more excuse for being confused.


 :Laughing:  Lol!  :Smile:

----------

allenhopkins

----------


## Jess L.

> I detect a bit of anti-intellectualism in some of these comments. ...


I'm not sufficiently intellectual to even _know_ whether or not I'm intellectual or anti-intellectual.  :Laughing:  

However, years ago:   

I was waiting in line at the Post Office to buy some stamps (back when people still sent things called 'letters' lol). A kindly-looking and very elderly gentlemen was standing in line behind me. After some time, he asked, very politely:  

_"Excuse me miss, are you an intellectual?"_ 
My instantaneous reflex response was, _"Certainly not!"_ Yeah my reaction surprised even me, especially since the phrase "certainly not" is, in itself, stereotypically something only 'intellectuals' would say.  :Laughing:  Then I caught myself and realized he meant no harm, he wasn't trying to be insulting, he was probably just lonely and figured that might be a good conversation starter... it _was_ a college town after all, probably half the people there would qualify as intellectuals (in the _good_ sense of the word, that is). So we ended up having a good little chat about music (heh the only thing I know to talk about is music, cars, & tech).  :Laughing:  

As to my initial reaction feeling insulted that someone thought I was an "intellectual",  :Whistling:  I don't know where that comes from...  :Confused:  family & community I guess. Certainly not something I'm proud of, rather just an observation. Most of my early brainwashing er I mean socializing, I've managed to dispense with and reprogram to something more useful in modern society, but there are straggler leftovers from time to time.

----------


## Jess L.

> A nice illustration of the *James-Lange theory of emotion*. The fun is in the laughter.


Not sure I follow... maybe I misunderstood what you meant? 

I'd say that it looks like the people in the video are laughing & smiling *because* they're having fun, not the other way around. In other words, the fun happens first, because they're enjoying the music they're playing, and _then_ the outward display follows. (Not referring to the lyrics, but to the players' body movements etc.) 

If they weren't having fun, they wouldn't have any reason to act as happy as they do - they're not on-stage getting paid to put on a show. The players' good-times behavior seems genuine, not just contrived just to fit the tune, although of course that works well there too.  :Smile: 

So I went ahead and looked up a webpage about the James Lange theory of emotion. If I'm understanding what they're saying there, I have doubts about the theory's accuracy. The webpage's author does as well: 

_"... modern researchers largely discount the James-Lange theory, ..."_
_"... It was the later work of neuroscientists and experimental physiologists who demonstrated further flaws with the James-Lange theory of emotions. ..."_
_"... Another issue with the theory is that when tested by applying electrical stimulation, applying stimulation to the same site does not lead to the same emotions every time. A person may have the exact same physiological response to a stimulus, yet experience an entirely different emotion. Factors such as the individual's existing mental state, cues in the environment, and the reactions of other people can all play a role in the resulting emotional response. ..."_ 
*However*, the page also says: 

_"... there are some instances where physiological responses do lead to experiencing emotions. Developing a panic disorder and specific phobias are two examples. ..."_
etc. 

That page mentions a *different* theory, the Cannon-Bard theory of emotion, which seems to make more sense to me. 

Not sure this is related, but I can say one thing I've observed with regards to PTSD - a loud noise, for instance, can produce two distinct and separate reactions - (1) the conscious mind hears the noise, realizes it's something harmless and nothing to worry about, and then (2) a split second later the body reacts anyway (startled effect or jumping etc). For a fraction of a second, the part of the mind that controls the body seems to be either unaware of, or disregards for some reason, the _other_ part of the mind that's concluded that the sound was nothing to worry about. Not sure which one of the "emotion theories" that might fit into, maybe neither. 

But hey what do I know, I'm not a researcher. 

Anyway, yeah I know this isn't ShrinkCafe  :Wink:  but there's some degree of relevance I think - because the enjoyment factor of music is a strong motivating force to continue playing said music even if there is little or no monetary compensation or world fame-and-fortune rockstar status involved. The music generates its own rewards.  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## DavidKOS

> If bluegrass is "stage music" -- which maybe is how it started, but not really _all_ it is now -- and old-time is "communal (living room/back porch) music, with no soloists and few songs (and no time limits on tunes), where do you put Charlie Poole?  Or the Skillet Lickers with their _"Corn Liquor Still"_ comedy skits?  Or Snuffy Jenkins, Mainer's Mountaineers, Dock Walsh and the Carolina Tar Heels?  All non-bluegrass (pre-bluegrass?) groups that put on stage shows, toured around as *professional entertainers*; I'd call them old-time musicians, based on style and repertoire, but developed well beyond the "communal" or even dance-band environment that the essayist contends is essential to old-time music.


They were indeed professional musicians and entertainers. As were the BG boys, F and S, etc.





> As for back-up guitar, the Old-Time Police should make all guitarists emulate Riley Puckett, and play bass runs with their fingers.  No more flat-picks!


https://www.flatpickerhangout.com/archive/5341

"describes the techniques in the book as taken from source recordings, of guitar players using thumbpicks and sometimes fingerpicks, and describes the use of a flat pick as a modern innovation. He intends for the book to apply to those who use a flatpick. The author might delight in discovering several early guitarists in fact did use a flatpick, and were quite influential. "

http://eamusic.dartmouth.edu/~larry/...uckette_OP.pdf

comments about Puckett and flatpicking solos.

https://www.banjohangout.org/archive/256714

"Riley Puckett is the man most guitarists have to hear and should pay close attention to. While the Boom Chuck is great and actually preferable to almost anything else. A real flatpicker will find a lot of red meat listening to Puckett's sides with Gid Tanner and the Skillet Lickers. Riley kept his runs running from beginning to end (by way of the middle) and was able to syncopate while still holding down the rhythm astutely."

https://oldtimeparty.wordpress.com/2...riley-puckett/

no agreement on exactly what picks Puckett used - but mostly a combination of thumb-pick and finger picks, not a flatpick.

but one response was interesting:

Dave Pounds Says:	
December 5, 2014 at 10:10 pm | Reply
Well, all I can say is that I am* his grandson, and according to his daughter* (who knew him better than any of the people you mentioned and who I am looking at right this minute), he played *right-handed, high off the bridge, and used a thumb pick and a pick on all four fingers…and, yes, we have a full set of the picks he used INCLUDING one of the small steel picks that he used on his pinky.*

So there you have it - full on 5 finger picking!

Thanks for mentioning Riley.

----------

allenhopkins, 

Charlieshafer, 

doublestoptremolo

----------


## ralph johansson

> When did evolution give us this instinctive need to categorize everything?
> 
> If bluegrass is "stage music" -- which maybe is how it started, but not really _all_ it is now -- and old-time is "communal (living room/back porch) music, with no soloists and few songs (and no time limits on tunes), where do you put Charlie Poole?  Or the Skillet Lickers with their _"Corn Liquor Still"_ comedy skits?  Or Snuffy Jenkins, Mainer's Mountaineers, Dock Walsh and the Carolina Tar Heels?  All non-bluegrass (pre-bluegrass?) groups that put on stage shows, toured around as professional entertainers; I'd call them old-time musicians, based on style and repertoire, but developed well beyond the "communal" or even dance-band environment that the essayist contends is essential to old-time music.
> 
> -------------------
> As for back-up guitar, the Old-Time Police should make all guitarists emulate Riley Puckett, and play bass runs with their fingers.  No more flat-picks!




You saved me a lot of work with this post! Indeed, all those acts performed, and recorded. Some sold quite well, e.g., before the Depression a new single by the Skillet Lickers sold around 200,000 copies. And one of their best known songs, Down Yonder, was a pop song by L Wolfe Gilbert.


It's a bit disturbing that the only videos of contemporary old-time linked to here feature rank amateurs. For some truly professional exponents of the genre I would cite Bruce Molsky and Rachel Eddy; and Eddy in particular approaches the "genre" in quite an unprejudiced manner. There's a YouTube video of her on stage with a cello. During her years in Sweden she led an all-female group called the Liza Janes with snare drum and cajón and some (to my ears) BG-inspired rhythm mandolin. Check out her album "Hand on the Plow" with its beautiful blend  of ancient and modern influences (esp. in the rhythm)

----------

allenhopkins, 

DavidKOS

----------


## A 4

> It's a bit disturbing that the only videos of contemporary old-time linked to here feature rank amateurs. For some truly professional exponents of the genre I would cite Bruce Molsky and Rachel Eddy; and Eddy in particular approaches the "genre" in quite an unprejudiced manner.


That video of Little Brown Jug features Tricia Spencer, who is a professional musician (maybe she also has a day job, like many Old-Time pros).  She is half of Spencer and Raines, who I really like.

Not Bluegrass: 




Just because so many of the videos are at Clifftop doesn't mean they don't play inside sometimes.  Here's Rachael Eddy (Not Bluegrass):

----------

Jess L.

----------


## JeffD

> It's a bit disturbing that the only videos of contemporary old-time linked to here feature rank amateurs. For some truly professional exponents of the genre I would cite Bruce Molsky and Rachel Eddy; and Eddy in particular approaches the "genre" in quite an unprejudiced manner.


Ralph I am going to have to disagree with you. (Not with your observation, but with your being disturbed.) 

Yes there are many professionals in the genre. But, as opposed to BG, the main thrust of OT is you me and your neighbor and that guy across town on that old banjo, and who my great grampa played with, and where did you learn that tune, and l'll make the corn bread and chili and you and your brother come over for a jam.

Yes there are exceptions. Wonderful expections. There are bluegrass jams dominated by folks without a thought of getting acclaim or professional opportunities, and, as you point out there are more and more and many OT bands making CDs and making money.

But my point is the emphasis, the main thrust. Even when done at a party or jam, BG is "stage oriented", and even when done on stage, OT is trying to evoke the back porch.

I was linking jams, without regard as to whether they perform or record. They play, and that moment when they play, is the whole point of OT. 

BG is much more star oriented and IMO star worshiping. OT has that aspect, and is becoming that way more and more, but am not happy about it. I think it entirely misses the point. I enjoy those might who join me in my "rank amateur" jam because they like the tune we are playing, much more than those who join a Rachel Eddy jam because its Rachel. (And don't get me wrong, I think Rachel Eddy's playing is sublime, absolutely.) If I name drop, it will be the name of a tune!  :Smile: 

IMO etc., etc.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## JeffD

Not Bluegrass:




Yes I know the Canote Brothers perform and are among the best. Among my favorites. 

But isn't this jam full of sublime moments.

I much prefer when they "hold court" (I hate that description), than when they are on stage.

----------


## JeffD

Ralph, I am not in any way trying to pick a fight. I did not mean to come across that way. There is just perhaps a phase angle between how you and i come at this. On most things we likely agree more than we disagree.

----------


## Mike Snyder

At my skill level, I dont believe that I could sit with a top bluegrass band and feel that I added something of value to the tunes. They are very advanced technically and that is needed to be successful in that genre. I have sat in jam situation with Spencer and Raines and Raines mentioned that the tenor banjo sounded good on a particular tune. Those two have the advanced abilities to play across genres. Top shelf in old time music today. The music is just more accessible to mid-level musicians like me. I have played mandolin in several bluegrass bands and was barely hanging on by my teeth at every performance. Probably had to do with the anatomy of a bgrass tune. I have to play this break at this point in this tune and I hit a clam note I have to catch myself and pull it out of the ashes. There is more freedom of movement in old time. Play to your strength. Spencer and Raines are the perfect example. He knows a couple thousand tunes and plays the melody clean and clear. She is the master of rhythm fiddle. Chordal monster fiddler and ALWAYS knows what a tune needs to make it better. Plenty of bgrass players have this sort of intuitive ability, too, but in the confines of performance it is less apparent. 
  Or maybe Im just a huge S&R fan.

----------


## JeffD

> Looking it up now, I see "In the Pines" is 1995, which doesn't seem that early to me.  And no disrespect intended from my description above - it is fantastic.


Not sure what you mean.  :Confused:

----------


## doublestoptremolo

> But, as opposed to BG, the main thrust of OT is you me and your neighbor and that guy across town on that old banjo, and who my great grampa played with, and where did you learn that tune, and l'll make the corn bread and chili and you and your brother come over for a jam.


Everything in the paragraph applies to a bluegrass jam, though. The fact that we might have learned the songs off records originally doesn't negate the community aspect of it. 




> There are bluegrass jams dominated by folks without a thought of getting acclaim or professional opportunities . . .


Lord I would hope so. Not the best career path. :Smile: 




> But my point is the emphasis, the main thrust. Even when done at a party or jam, BG is "stage oriented"


This I don't get. How is gathering with friends and strangers--in a campground, church fellowship hall, parking lot, under a tree, or on someone's back porch--and standing or sitting in a circle and playing bluegrass songs, "stage oriented"?

----------


## JeffD

> Bluegrass musicians use the tune to show off their musicianship. Old Time musicians use their musicianship to show off the tune.


Of course there are exceptions, and everyone who plays wants to be heard, but as a general emphasis of the genre, I agree with you 100%.

----------


## A 4

> Not sure what you mean.


I described "In the Pines" as slowed down with more notes added.  Didn't want anyone to confuse that as meaning bad or inferior in any way - it's just a different way to play great tunes.  I'll link to an example below - and I am loving the stuff linked as "Not Bluegrass," so I will keep that up.

Not Bluegrass:

----------

Ranald

----------


## Mike Snyder

I’m sure you’re right. I want to be heard or I wouldn’t busk. But in an OTjam I want to become a part of the whole. I want to be inside the tune, to live there. Ultimately, I want to inhabit the tunes to the point that I can lay out and feel that fullness of the tune with my ears alone and to dance with the tune without movement.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## JeffD

> This I don't get. How is gathering with friends and strangers--in a campground, church fellowship hall, parking lot, under a tree, or on someone's back porch--and standing or sitting in a circle and playing bluegrass songs, "stage oriented"?


Little things. Seen in contrast to OT anyway.

Like - so many bluegrass jam sessions, casual jams in parking lots etc., are conducted standing up. Standing up? 

Like taking a break, improvising to show your chops, and soloing is an integral part of BG. (A rather isolated OT fiddler I knew once said about it "what, are they hoping there is a talent scout in the audience?" Not that I would buy a lot of what this OT fiddler would say, actually, he was a character, but he said a lot of funny things.)

There is more competition in casual BG jams. Like two sail boats on the same water, when there are two mandolin players at the same jam they seem many times to be eyeing each other and preparing to drop their gloves.

Emphasis on fast. Because it sounds more impressive.

By way of contrast, most OT jams I have attended, were sitting down, maybe some slight ornamentation of a tune but no real improvisation, (heck the tune is good enough as it is), many many (many) reps of each tune because its so much fun to "get into" the tune, emphasis on playing the tune at the speed that is right for the tune, and an atmosphere of doing what you can for the tune while enjoying your place in the synergy.

----------

DavidKOS, 

Jess L.

----------


## JeffD

> I’m sure you’re right. I want to be heard or I wouldn’t busk. But in an OTjam I want to become a part of the whole. I want to be inside the tune, to live there. Ultimately, I want to inhabit the tunes to the point that I can lay out and feel that fullness of the tune with my ears alone and to dance with the tune without movement.


YES! Well said.

----------


## JeffD

[QUOTE]


> I described "In the Pines" as slowed down with more notes added.  Didn't want anyone to confuse that as meaning bad or inferior in any way - it's just a different way to play great tunes.


OK. I did not understand. In the Pines is an old old tune/song.




> Not Bluegrass:


Real cool. The early recordings of this are real fast. I like it. 

Contrast to a more traditional version:




And (why not) contrast to how Kenny Baker played it, at 2:20 on this recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg2ayrwhlQM

----------

DavidKOS, 

Ranald

----------


## A 4

[QUOTE=JeffD;1640474]


> OK. I did not understand. In the Pines is an old old tune/song.


I was referring to the Todd Phillips Album from the 1990s, which is called "In the Pines," which has several fiddle tunes on it, and "In the Pines" done as an instrumental.  

Looks Like JeffD's video link did not come through.  

Not Bluegrass:

----------


## JeffD

I guess my point, more succinctly, is that when you show OT music done by consummate musicians, on the stage, in front of an audience, its great, its amazing, but it kind of misses vein. IMO etc., etc.

----------


## doublestoptremolo

> The music is just more accessible to mid-level musicians like me.


I feel the opposite. Old time is about playing the melody, Bluegrass _can_ be about playing the melody with a few extra ornamentations (harmony, tremolo). But the melodies in fiddle tunes have a lot more notes than the melodies to a vocal number. And the lyrics, to me, make it easier to distinguish the melodies. I could envision learning 100-150 bluegrass songs, but I'd probably top out at 50 fiddle tunes.

----------


## Charlieshafer

I think there are a few too many generalizations going on here. Bluegrass has gone from performance music to social-picking music. A year or so ago, there was a thread here asking about who went to bluegrass festivals and why. The overwhelming majority said they went to pick in the campground, and many said they seldom even venture to see what's on the stage. While some bluegrass is still "for performance only", the number of those traditional bluegrass groups is shrinking. The cross-over groups are taking charge. 

As to the relative difficulty, old-time can be pretty challenging for the fiddler or banjo player if they choose to make it that way. Bluegrass has speed at times, and it's pretty much of the "let's see how many notes we can play in as little time as possible" variety. Most bluegrass solos tend to be lick oriented, a flurry of stuff followed by a well-rehearsed tail that leads to the next soloist.

The slides, double stops, etc., are common to both bluegrass and old-time, it's just bluegrass is usually a little faster. Learn old time techniques, and they work perfectly well with bluegrass.

So much is made about the purpose of this being that, or vice verse, but it's all been running together over the past 20 years or so. The increase in festivals and music camps has largely been responsible for this, but as many folks sit around and pick bluegrass as play old time now. Both old time and bluegrass have had younger players pushing boundaries and simultaneously annoying the purists. And a number of platers now are ripping on old-time tunes as fast or faster than some bluegrass tunes. It's all a blur now, and the labels are there simply for marketing purposes.

----------

DataNick, 

Jess L.

----------


## Charles E.

I agree that the art of Old Time guitar back up is getting lost. I know of only a few guitar players that get it. Joe Newberry is one.

The Foghorn Stringband also does a good job.

----------


## Gelsenbury

I'm enjoying this thread and the video examples! It's an education about bluegrass (about which I know very little) and old-time (about which I know even less), regardless of how blurred the boundaries are in practice. 

Most people who play music also consume "stage music" in some form, whether in recorded form or at concerts. It doesn't work the other way round! Commercial music is so ubiquitous today that taking part in amateur communal music-making has something of a primaeval appeal to it. This is somewhat ironic considering that it pre-dates recorded music by centuries. But we live in topsy-turvy times. 

My reason for saying this is that it makes very little sense to say that one categorically doesn't like commercial, recorded, staged, or "performance" music. But it does make sense to have a particular love of communal music. I think this may be what the blogger means. 

I, for one, really like it when people - regardless of skill or equipment - join in with the playing, singing, or dancing. It's what folk music is all about in my mind.

----------


## Mark Gunter

One indication of the author's bias is his scorn for the idea that Bluegrass be considered "roots" music. Old Time music has its roots, and has become a branch of something, and a root of something, etc. etc. In 2018, Bluegrass Music is much a roots music as Old Time is a roots music. I assume when we speak of "roots" in music we are referencing the same type of analogy as we use genealogically speaking of a "family tree" - so we have parents and offspring - offspring become parents and have offspring, and etc. in the circle of life.

I think in the American music tradition, when one thinks of roots he must first think of Native American music, and then of the musical traditions that immigrants brought in, notably (but not limited to) from the British Isles and from Africa.

If Old Time music is roots music, but Bluegrass is not, then did Adam and Eve sing Old Time tunes?

IMHO not enough emphasis is placed on the effects of Native American musical traditions and their effect on the practitioners of music from the British Isles and the practitioners of music from Africa and the Caribbean isles in any of these discussions of Americana and Roots.

----------

DavidKOS, 

Jess L.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Not Bluegrass:


Very nice and definitely not Bluegrass but Not Old Time either. This is more the modernized amalgamated arranged style coming out of the Berklee crowd. If you listen carefully there are some well-orchestrated jazz licks and a few jazz-substituted chords thrown in there. Lovely listening music by top musicians.

----------


## Mark Gunter

I believe that, historically speaking, _social bluegrass_ ("parking lot picking" or "bluegrass jam night" or "bluegrass porch [or campground] picking") is an offshoot of _commercial bluegrass_. If we wanted to define a "pure bluegrass" genre, the form would be that of a performing professional ensemble. Once we move to "parking lot picking" the form can and does change a great deal from time to time with regard to the song catalog and even instrumentation. Seven guitars, a harmonica and a mandolin is not the original bluegrass - but no reason it couldn't be a bluegrass jam.

The "bluegrass jam" is really as much an offshoot of bluegrass as is newgrass or Dawg music.

----------

DavidKOS, 

Jess L.

----------


## A 4

Since this thread was started by something published by Dwight Diller, we may as well see a Dwight Diller video, too.

Not Bluegrass:

----------

Jess L., 

Ranald

----------


## Jess L.

> ... IMHO not enough emphasis is placed on the effects of *Native American* musical traditions and their effect on the practitioners of music from the *British Isles* and the practitioners of music from *Africa* and the *Caribbean* isles in any of these discussions of Americana and Roots.


I like this example of *Metis* fiddling.  :Mandosmiley:  Not Bluegrass: 



_(or direct link)_ 

That's a Canadian band, but there are people who identify as Metis in the U.S. as well, and besides, geographically speaking, the continent of North America includes more than just the U.S. anyway.  :Smile:

----------


## Charlieshafer

That's confusing to me. Is the group made up of the hybrid/Metis people? (I'm just using the Wiki definition of Mets, being a french derivative of the word hybrid of indigenous and French Canadians). That sounds awfully like a classical string quartet playing a Quebecois tune, but then, I can't say I know the tune for sure. Is it a Native Canadian tune? Beautifully played whatever it is.

Rē Mrk's comment, I have never heard of anyone trying to bridge Native American sounds with European/African imported traditions. Are there any studies on this? I'd be curious to hear if there are any, or any musicians doing this.

----------


## Ranald

> That's confusing to me. Is the group made up of the hybrid/Metis people? (I'm just using the Wiki definition of Mets, being a french derivative of the word hybrid of indigenous and French Canadians). That sounds awfully like a classical string quartet playing a Quebecois tune, but then, I can't say I know the tune for sure. Is it a Native Canadian tune? Beautifully played whatever it is.
> 
> Rē Mrk's comment, I have never heard of anyone trying to bridge Native American sounds with European/African imported traditions. Are there any studies on this? I'd be curious to hear if there are any, or any musicians doing this.


That is by no means typical Metis fiddling, but artfully arranged traditional Metis music, as when a fiddler suffers through the process of playing with a symphony orchestra. (Sigh, it isn't easy for a traditional musician to make a living.) Search YouTube for "Metis fiddling Manitoba" or "Metis fiddling Saskatchewan" for a great many examples of traditional fiddling. For studies and recordings of Metis and indigenous fiddling and the connections between Native and European music, check out Ann Lederman's work. I'm rushing out the door, but you should be able to find her material or references at least on Google. I'm off to the sugar bush.

----------

Charlieshafer, 

Jess L.

----------


## Jess L.

> ... Is the group made up of the hybrid/Metis people? (I'm just using the Wiki definition of Mets, being a french derivative of the word hybrid of indigenous and French Canadians). ...


The band's website says: 

_"Born in Winnipeg with proud Métis roots, siblings Alyssa, Conlin, Nicholas, and Danton perform Métis fiddle music passed down by their elders, while drawing on their diverse backgrounds in classical music, jazz and beyond. ..."_
So it looks like they're playing trad tunes but changing it up a bit with other influences as well. 

I think I hear a very subtle drum in places in the tune, I don't know if that's a First Nations influence or more like Irish bodhran or ?? 

In any case, I love the nice rhythm and bounce they get with that tune.  :Mandosmiley:  




> ... That sounds awfully like a classical string quartet playing a Quebecois tune, ...


It'd have to be an exceptionally good one (IMO).  :Laughing:  Not meaning to be argumentative or anything, but I'd be skeptical that the average classical string quartet would be able to bring a fiddle tune to life that well, without prior fiddle-tunes experience. I've heard plenty of classically-trained violinists trying to play fiddle tunes which they regard as "simple", yeah they get all the _notes_ right and they think that's all there is to it, but the rhythm is all wrong/missing and the end result is just a string of meaningless notes without feeling, unlistenable. 

It's my guess that the musicians in the Metis video already had plenty of experience in playing fiddle tunes & dance music, before they ventured off into the classical/jazz/etc influences mentioned on their webpage. 

Anyway, seems they're well received: 

_"... [debut album North West Voyage] received "Best Traditional Album" at the 2012 Canadian Folk Music Awards.  ... The group has performed their music for audiences across Canada and internationally; from intimate settings in libraries, museums and schools, to festivals and events such as the 2015 Para-Pan Am Games opening ceremony, the 2010 Vancouver Olympics, the National Aboriginal Achievement Awards, the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian, the Mariposa Folk Festival, and the Alianait festival in Iqaluit, Nunavut."_



> ... I can't say I know the tune for sure. Is it a Native Canadian tune? ...


Good question - I don't know. That YouTube video was apparently uploaded by someone else other than the band, and below the video on the YouTube page the tune is identified as a medley of three tunes, but that can't be right  :Confused:  because (to me anyway) it doesn't sound like three separate tunes. It sounds like one tune. Anyway here's what the YouTube page says: 

_"La Grande Gigue Simple / Red River Jig / Big John McNeil"_
Maybe it's one of those? If I had to guess, I'd say the first one just because the name looks French and, to my ears, the playing sounds like it has a strong French influence as well.  :Mandosmiley:  But I could be wrong. If I can remember it tonight, if someone else hasn't already ID'd the tune, I might look up those tunes and see if any of them is a match. 




> ... Beautifully played whatever it is. ...


Yes.  :Mandosmiley:  

Hearing awesome fiddling like that, makes me want to buy another fiddle,  :Disbelief:  but... I've been down that rabbit hole before and after years of it I was still never quite satisfied with my fiddling. Bowing and rhythm/'feel' was no problem, but my sense of pitch is not really good enough (especially nowadays) to be playing a fretless instrument anymore. I can tell when a note is 'off' but I can't tell if it's sharp or flat without trial-and-error each time... not a good match for fiddle. I like my frets.  :Grin:  So I will have to content myself with listening to other people playing great fiddle tunes, instead of like in the old days whenever I heard a cool tune I'd be like "I gotta learn how to play that! I gotta buy that instrument!" I even bought a set of Uilleann pipes one time.  :Whistling:  (Now _those_ were a definite challenge, I never got very far with it, it seems that me & reeds do not get along very well.)  :Laughing:

----------


## Charlieshafer

"It'd have to be an exceptionally good one (IMO).  Not meaning to be argumentative or anything, but I'd be skeptical that the average classical string quartet would be able to bring a fiddle tune to life that well, without prior fiddle-tunes experience. I've heard plenty of classically-trained violinists trying to play fiddle tunes which they regard as "simple", yeah they get all the notes right and they think that's all there is to it, but the rhythm is all wrong/missing and the end result is just a string of meaningless notes without feeling, unlistenable. "

Don't start down that road!  :Wink:  Excellent musicians pick up all the subtleties if forms no matter what the stye, that's what music is. You might be hearing amateur classical musicians trying different things out, but the good musicians play anything well. I've worked with classical violinist and cellists for years, introducing fiddle forms for both their fun and to use for teaching. The good players are on it in a heartbeat. 

it's the same thing discussed on any trad forum and thread, that sort of "we're great and no one else can duplicate our marvelous send of musical perfection" which drives people from ever wanting to even try to play their music. Hard core trad sessions in all forms, Irish, Bluegrass, Old-time, etc are dying out, and being replaced by much more free-form sessions and jams. Pockets of the hard core exist, but most people want to have fun, and it's not fun to be told you're not authentic, especially when you're playing is every bit as good as the person who is guarding the tradition. I can't tell you how many kids in the college master's programs for classical violin make a ton of money playing all sorts of Irish pubs, bluegrass gigs, etc all around the area. They must be good because they're also winning competitions. Like Mairi Black winning Glenfiddich.

- - - Updated - - -




> That is by no means typical Metis fiddling, but artfully arranged traditional Metis music, as when a fiddler suffers through the process of playing with a symphony orchestra. (Sigh, it isn't easy for a traditional musician to make a living.) Search YouTube for "Metis fiddling Manitoba" or "Metis fiddling Saskatchewan" for a great many examples of traditional fiddling. For studies and recordings of Metis and indigenous fiddling and the connections between Native and European music, check out Ann Lederman's work. I'm rushing out the door, but you should be able to find her material or references at least on Google. I'm off to the sugar bush.


Excellent, thanks! I'll be doing some research!

----------

Ranald

----------


## JeffD

> Very nice and definitely not Bluegrass but Not Old Time either. ...


Absolutely agree.

----------


## JeffD

> I believe that, historically speaking, _social bluegrass_ ("parking lot picking" or "bluegrass jam night" or "bluegrass porch [or campground] picking") is an offshoot of _commercial bluegrass_..


And it could arguably be said that stage and performance old time is an off shoot of back porch old time. With a huge exception to be made for playing dances, which is a performance of sorts that has been part of OT for ever.


I love listening to the very early recordings of old time music, and it is often within a little radio skit, with the musicians playing goofy characters, and involving moonshine, lack of urban sophistication, gettin' together to pick, etc. The idea, I think, was to provide a context for folks who had never heard this music before. A context and a stereotype unfortunately, but the point is that music being recorded music was understood to have come from somewhere, from a tradition that wasn't performance per se.

----------


## JeffD

> The Foghorn Stringband also does a good job.


Yes indeed.

----------


## JeffD

> ".... ....  Not meaning to be argumentative or anything, but I'd be skeptical that the average classical string quartet would be able to bring a fiddle tune to life that well... ... "
> 
> Don't start down that road!  Excellent musicians pick up all the subtleties if forms no matter what the stye, that's what music is.


YES!

Adherents of every genre have gigantic blind spots in there understanding of the abilities of adherents of other genres.

There are many things "the average" string quartet musician can't do, just like the average musician of any genre.

----------

Mandoplumb

----------


## Mark Gunter

> Rē Mrk's comment, I have never heard of anyone trying to bridge Native American sounds with European/African imported traditions. Are there any studies on this? I'd be curious to hear if there are any, or any musicians doing this.


Hi Charlie, I haven't read any scholarly studies, but it is a field of interest to me, so I do hope to find time to delve into it more. There is the evidentiary problem of studying a culture that was subjected to genicide - much of the blending of Native American culture with European culture occurred early in the history of America, and was hampered later by the "Indian Wars". The blending of African and Native American cultures continued as African Americans sought refuge with Native Americans, the only group ostracized more than them.

For starters I can point you to a popular treatment rather than a scholarly study; it is an eye-opening piece about recent past and current musicians doing this - you probably know most of the musicians, though you may be totally unaware of the Native American culture they bring to the table. Due to the state-sponsored ostracism of Native Americans and their culture that has continued to recent times, the influence has most often been hidden from view. The movie is titled _Rumble: The Indians Who Rocked The World_

I'll be happy to share other resources with you as I find them, Charlie, and would appreciate the same consideration if you come across related material.

It is of note that the massacre popularly known as _Wounded Knee_ resulted largely due to Native American music.

----------

Charlieshafer, 

Jess L.

----------


## foldedpath

> Hard core trad sessions in all forms, Irish, Bluegrass, Old-time, etc are dying out, and being replaced by much more free-form sessions and jams.


I have to disagree with that. Nothing is "dying out" and being replaced by free-form sessions and jams in my part of the USA, anyway. Maybe you're just located too close to Berklee? Too many young, jazz-trained overachievers?

 :Wink:  I kid, I kid...

We have plenty of the usual OldTime jams out here in the PNW. They do tend to skew towards an older demographic, but that's because people have more time when they're retired, and many are reviving an earlier interest in playing music from when they were younger. There is an entire Fiddle Tunes Festival in my town dedicated to learning and preserving trad music, with an emphasis on Americana but also some international genres. There are always plenty of kids and teenagers at that festival. It's not all us oldsters.

As far as Irish/Scottish trad goes, I've attended many sessions in my area and never seen a free-form jam. If anything, the tendency is to dig deeper in the tradition, finding the older and more obscure tunes in order to avoid the overplayed session standards. 

And if you want to hear some respect for tradition and zero interest in free-form music, talk to one of the local Scottish pipers! They're about as conservative as it gets. 




> Pockets of the hard core exist, but most people want to have fun, and it's not fun to be told you're not authentic, especially when you're playing is every bit as good as the person who is guarding the tradition.


I think you're overdoing the "session police" angle here. Some Irish sessions and OldTime jams may have this issue, but most of the ones I know of are friendlier than that. Having fun is the whole point!

There is a need to keep at least some boundaries, to keep an Irish session or OldTime jam from turning into a Grateful Dead singalong for the guitar army. That can certainly look like "hard core" to an outsider, but it's just the way it works. Without some boundaries, you can't get together and have fun playing trad with other like-minded musicians.

----------

Charlieshafer, 

DavidKOS, 

Jess L.

----------


## Ranald

> That's confusing to me. Is the group made up of the hybrid/Metis people? (I'm just using the Wiki definition of Mets, being a french derivative of the word hybrid of indigenous and French Canadians). That sounds awfully like a classical string quartet playing a Quebecois tune, but then, I can't say I know the tune for sure. Is it a Native Canadian tune? Beautifully played whatever it is.
> 
> Rē Mrk's comment, I have never heard of anyone trying to bridge Native American sounds with European/African imported traditions. Are there any studies on this? I'd be curious to hear if there are any, or any musicians doing this.


I have no doubt that these young people are Metis or First Nations (Indian) folks, and likely fiddlers too, as the Metis culture puts great cultural value on their fiddling. The "Red River Jig" is their national anthem, so to speak. However, I get a strong sense of a music teacher, whether Metis or otherwise, in the background. This isn't an indication of what Metis fiddling has turned into or where it's heading. The musical culture of the Metis people is alive and well. In fact, you can go anywhere in Canada and find plenty of fiddlers or accordion players, though you often have to avoid the "folkies" and perhaps get out of town to find them. 

By the way, Metis musical culture is going through all the issues discussed in this thread, such as commercialization, formal training, and professional and amateur musicians. A couple of Canada's most popular fiddlers in the 1930's to 50's, King Ganan and Andy DeJarlis, were both Metis from Manitoba. Both had "dance orchestras", playing swing and popular music as well as traditional tunes. They were, after all, professional musicians making a living, and, for all I know, might have loved popular music as well.

Here's some contemporary Metis fiddling at a Red River Jig contest, with evidence of a crossover with county and rock music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHQX4Htg3wM

----------

Jess L.

----------


## Charlieshafer

Thanks to Mark, Ranald and Foldedpath for their replies. There's a lot to be uncovered here, and will be fun to explore.

As far as the session thing goes, I'm not disagreeing that there's a place for the hard-core traditional sessions/jams. That's how to keep traditions alive. But here, it's hard to find the hard-core sessions. They exist, but are getting smaller. And what Folded says about the Berklee scene is true, it does influence things. Between that and being close to Brooklyn, as well as Juillard (not to mention Yale's own programs in early music) it's hard to see how anyone can play anything straight anymore. Moira Smiley, vocalist for Solas and Seamus Egan, as well as many others, leaves a traditional Irish show here to head into NYC to work with a contemporary classical choir. Mairi Black leads a Scots workshop after winning Glenfiddich, then has to sit in with an orchestra that's short  a few for a Vivalsi show. It's a stylistic mess, and everyone loves it. 

But to the First Peoples and Native American mix, I think we'd all better get on with our documenting as much as possible as soon as possible. Ronald's comment about how Metis fiddling is going through the same issues is very telling. It's like the gentrification of music. I happen to like the morphing, as long as there's plenty of documented examples of the old. In a way, it's the same as a few fiddlers I know who try to emulate Tommy Jarrell's stuff perfectly. I suppose that's a fun exercise, but I have hours of recordings of Tommy to listen to if I want. 

So let's get on it. Ranald, one last question: does anyone have knowledge of when the fiddles were first introduced to First People culture, and when it became a "thing?" Oh, and we're hosting the East Pointers tomorrow night. If you don't mind the 9 hour drive, we're here!

Added edit: just watched the video you linked to, really fun stuff. The video that came on afterwards was a Metis Orange Blossom Special. The fiddling and dancing were great, and hearing the announcer introduce the Orange Blossom with a Canadian accent was pretty cool.

While looking for Mark's movie suggestion, I found the soundtrack and was surprised to see a lot of non-Native American artists. So I went back to a guy, Keith Secola, and American Indian who was introduced to me by, yeah Ranald, a Canadian.

----------

foldedpath, 

Ranald

----------


## Mark Gunter

Not Bluegrass.
Not Old Time.

"Julie": by Rhiannon Giddens of Occaneechi descent



"Great Grandpa's Banjo": Pura Fe (Tuscarora) & Rhiannon Giddens (Occaneechi)



Rhiannon Giddens: On the Lost History of the Black Banjo

----------

Bob Visentin, 

Charlieshafer, 

Jess L.

----------


## Mark Gunter

> While looking for Mark's movie suggestion, I found the soundtrack and was surprised to see a lot of non-Native American artists.


Charlie, go beyond the soundtrack - as I mentioned in an earlier post, something to the effect that you will recognize many of the musicians and will have had no idea of their deep Native American heritage. It's admittedly a popular documentary, not a scholarly study, but it is well documented. The show is primarily about the contribution of Native Americans to modern music - especially rock and roll - but it delves into roots music, jazz, etc.

The musical history of America is largely rooted in undocumented interaction between native and imported slaves and indentured servants and their masters. I would expect that the best or most well-documented history of native contributions would be in the north, the Metis culture, and in the south, the Creole culture in Louisiana.

People with Native American ancestry featured or interviewed in this movie (not exhaustive):

Name - (occupation) - tribal ancestry
_(m = musician)_

Robbie Robertson (m) Mohawk
Link Wray (m) Shawnee
Joy Harjo (poet) Muskogee/Creek
Steve Salas (m) Apache
Ron Welborn (jazz historian) Gingaskin Cherokee
Jennifer Kreisberg (m) Tuscarora
Pura Fe (m) Tuscarora
John Trudell (poet) Santee Dakota
Monk Boudreaux (m) Choctaw
Aaron, Ivan & Cyril Neville (m) Choctaw
Erich Jarvis (historian/geneticist) Tuscarora
Rhiannon Giddens (m) Occaneechi
Charlie Patton (m) Choctaw
Malinda Lowery (historian) Lumbee
Corey Harris (m) Choctaw
Howlin' Wolf (m) Choctaw
Mildred Bailey (m) Couer D'Alene
Chad S. Hamill (ethnomusicologist) Spokane
Buffy Saint-Marie (m) Cree
Gary Farmer (actor) Cayuga
Bill Miller (m) Mohican
Adam Beach (actor) Saulteaux
Jimi Hendrix (m) Cherokee
Jesse Ed Davis (m) Kiowa
Ricky Medlocke (m) Lakota Sioux
Pat Vegas (m) Yaqui/Shoshone
Taboo (m) Shoshone
Randy Castillo (m) Isleta Pueblo/Apache

This documentary currently can be streamed if you have Amazon Prime; a DVD of this movie can be borrowed through Netflix if you have that service.

----------

brunello97, 

Charlieshafer, 

Jess L.

----------


## Jess L.

> ... Excellent musicians pick up all the subtleties if forms *no matter what the stye*, that's what *music* is. ...


Two points here: (1) Apparently then, there aren't nearly as many "excellent" musicians in the general population as one might wish, and (2) it seems to me that what you're saying is based on the assumption that "music" is some sort of universal constant where if musicians master one style then they're automatically masters of all the other styles as well. I don't see that happening. 

Perhaps one's judgment could be clouded by not being able to discern the differences between styles, and/or the differences between great music (stuff that moves people in positive ways) and mediocre barely-passable music (stuff that makes people want to wear earplugs permanently). If that were the case, then it would be easier to think that someone who's good at playing "style a" could just instantly transfer over and play "style b" even though they were completely unfamiliar with "style b". 

One wonders, do these musicians that you're referencing also have the capability to just jump right in and start playing complicated classical ragas from India, or music from other non-Western cultures whose idea of music can be quite different from ours, while understanding all the complex rhythms and other factors that go into making that music what it is? Or are they just bulldozing their way through it and assuming that's good enough? 




> ... You might be hearing *amateur* classical musicians trying different things out, but the good musicians play *anything* well. I've worked with classical violinist and cellists for years, introducing fiddle forms for both their fun and to use for teaching. The good players are on it in a heartbeat. ...


I was hearing professional, not "amateur", classical musicians. 

Apparently then, going by your criteria, they were not "good musicians" since they were unable to adequately process fiddle tunes. 

You might have significantly higher exposure to such "good musicians" than the rest of us, given your geographic proximity to various music colleges or whatever it is that goes on up there.  :Smile:  




> ... it's the same thing discussed on any trad forum and thread, that sort of "we're great and no one else can duplicate our marvelous send of musical perfection" which drives people from ever wanting to even try to play their music. ...


That's a good point, but with all due respect, it has nothing to do with what I'd written earlier, not sure why it was in a reply to me. 

What I was getting at, and I'm sure that everyone could agree on this, is that there is a vast *difference* between *mechanically playing a string of notes* like an unskilled robot or the worst imaginable MIDI, vs playing the exact same notes but putting in *subtle expression (velocity, phrasing, etc*) to make it sound more enjoyable to listen to.  

Not Bluegrass, not oldtime (and despite the author's attempt at something different at 0:24, still annoying and dead-sounding) - some ice-cream-truck-style MIDI music:  :Disbelief:   :Laughing:  



_(or direct link)_
That's how a lot of violinists sound, to fiddlers (the few that are left, anyway). All notes, no feeling. Although, the video's harmony line at 0:44 was somewhat intriguing...  :Smile:  

However, I really don't subscribe to musical snobbery, which is pretty obvious by my own choices for playing music - electric instruments for trad tunes,  :Grin:  'unauthorized'  :Wink:  variations on classical pieces,  :Cool:  all sorts of things that would have the purists' knickers in a knot.  :Laughing:  I'm all for playing whatever you want as long as you can *make it sound good* (yeah I know, the definition of "good" can vary by person), and as long as it isn't disrupting someone else's trip. 

But, that said, just to play devil's advocate for a moment - sometimes the people who complain the most about trad purists, are the people who are musically clueless enough to wantonly bulldoze over everything that the trad players consider valuable. Not always, maybe not even often, but sometimes. 




> ... I can't tell you how many kids in the *college master's programs* for classical violin *make a ton of money* playing all sorts of *Irish pubs*, *bluegrass gigs*, etc all around the area. ...


Ha! That's like waving a proverbial red flag in front of a bull.  :Laughing:  I will refrain from being lured into that topic aside from saying that the classically-trained violinists have put a lot of regular fiddlers out of work over the last few decades since the violinists took up an interest in trying to muddle their way through fiddle tunes. Non-musician audiences have now been conditioned to expect slick well-trained studio-quality violin technique rather than regular fiddlers. That's fine if that's what audiences want, those are the breaks, the cream rises and everyone else gets left out, but it's not a happy topic among some of the elder fiddlers. 




> ... They *must be good* because they're also *winning competitions*. ...


Ah yes, *"contest style" fiddling*, has it changed much since the 1970s? Then it was little more than a way to show off one's prowess in technical ability and finger dexterity, musicality be damned, no one cared if it actually *sounded* good as long as it *looked* flashy and impressive. Style over substance. Physically impressive, musically disastrous.  :Frown:  Not good for much except for gullible audiences (who the judges pandered to) who equated "it looks _so_ difficult!" with "good music". Same as how audiences go wild over "guitar gods" who play flashy stuff way up the neck just because audiences think it looks cool.  :Whistling:  The true test of any music, IMO, is to listen to it with your eyes closed, hear the sound without the distraction of the showmanship and flashy gymnastics. With the sound alone and no visuals, can you still tolerate listening to it? Does it still seem impressive? 

Even some of the earlier contest-style fiddlers have since gotten a clue, and they no longer play that way, now they play with much more maturity and musicality and 'soul'. I won't name names as it would be unfair to drag their names through the mud for something they're not even engaging in anymore.

----------

Mandoplumb

----------


## Mark Gunter

Quoting from the first paragraph of Diller's blog post: _"The unfortunate trend in this country is to homogenize things."_

Unfortunate for whom? His beloved Appalachian Old Time is a homogenization already. I think that when one whines about the unfortunate consequences of homogenization, he should be careful to also celebrate the collateral benefits of it.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## Ranald

Sorry for the length of this. The topic is Metis and Native music of Canada. If you're not interested, skip this one. I don't know why the quotes aren't coming in. I've added quotation marks.

from Post 78: "But to the First Peoples and Native American mix, I think we'd all better get on with our documenting as much as possible as soon as possible. Ronald's comment about how Metis fiddling is going through the same issues is very telling. It's like the gentrification of music. I happen to like the morphing, as long as there's plenty of documented examples of the old. In a way, it's the same as a few fiddlers I know who try to emulate Tommy Jarrell's stuff perfectly. I suppose that's a fun exercise, but I have hours of recordings of Tommy to listen to if I want. "

"So let's get on it. Ranald, one last question: does anyone have knowledge of when the fiddles were first introduced to First People culture, and when it became a "thing?"" 

Charlie and all, I don't want to get into a treatise on Canadian cultural history, but I'd like to make a few points in regard to First Nations and Metis music and culture. Understand that I belong to neither group and do not speak for them. Native people of Canada, as of the USA and elsewhere, belong to dynamic and thriving but damaged societies, living in and adjusting to the 21st century, as the rest of us are. They resent being regarded as people "of the past". Most aren't interested in preserving or reviving the folk music from any particular part of their 500-year history of contact with people from across the oceans. However, Ann Lederman, a fiddler, trained violinist, and ethnomusicologist, did "field collecting" in the 1980's, resulting in two LP's entitled "Old Native and Metis Fiddling in Manitoba", vols. 1 & 2. This is an excellent collection of music by fiddlers playing in older styles, with many "crooked tunes", removed from mainstream ideas of timing. Unfortunately, the recordings are hard to get. On Ann's website, she says that they will be available again soon.
See bottom of page:   http://www.annelederman.com/cd.htm
If you listen to contemporary Native and Metis fiddling from Manitoba on YouTube, you'll find few if any fiddlers playing like the old guys in her collection. Like other societies, theirs changes.

As I said, there's been continuous European contact with indigenous Canadians for five hundred years. Our history is different than that of the US in that the colonial powers were generally less interested in agriculture than in extracting natural resources, i.e., fish, furs, lumber, and eventually minerals. The fur trade spread across Canada from the east coast to the Rocky Mountains (the west coast had a separate fur trade), with the First Nations people and Europeans working cooperatively. To oversimplify, Native people trapped and cured furs, while Europeans traded for them to sell overseas. As a result, Canada had less genocide, though eventually, especially when the fur trade lost importance, we had the same "cultural genocide" (attempting to destroy the cultures) land theft, and similar cruel governmental policies. 

Fiddles came with the Europeans and European Canadians, especially both French-Canadian traders operating out of Montreal, and Scots trading for the (British) Hudson's Bay Company. Violins spread across the country with traders. Settlers -- United Empire Loyalists (refugees from the American Revolution), Scots, English, Irish, French, African-Americans, Germans Ukranians, etc. -- also brought their fiddles with them, and, people being what they are, Native people both obtained and made fiddles in a slow process over the centuries, to the point where I think it would be hard to find a reserve in Canada without a few fiddlers and other musicians generally.

Regarding Metis culture, the word "Metis" (there should be an accent on the "e" but I'm a primitive with computers) is politically charged these days, and is used in more than one way. First, there was a Metis Nation in the west, made up of people who were mainly the descendants of French-Canadian fur traders and First Nations women. They were a distinct society, with many people employed in transporting furs and supplies, and hunting buffalo to provide food for the fur trade. Fiddling was popular with these people. To complicate things, their neighbours of similar background, but of Scottish rather than French ancestry, were called, and called themselves, "half-breeds" or "breeds". Those terms are no longer acceptable, so they tend to use "Metis" as well. Both groups associated, intermarried and played music together. And both groups loved fiddling. 

To further complicate things, the term "Metis" in recent years has come to refer to people of Native and European parentage, anywhere in Canada. In this decade, some people with a little Native ancestry, perhaps generations back, call themselves, "Metis." African-Canadians, many of whom have First Nations ancestors, are now asking why does the definition of Metis say indigenous and "European" and not include "African"? The name issue is complex and political, with tension among the various actors -- and that's not even getting into the role of government. But, when we refer to "Metis fiddling", we mostly mean music from the Metis Nation of the west, with strong Scottish and French influences. Is anyone still with me?



from 78: "Oh, and we're hosting the East Pointers tomorrow night. If you don't mind the 9 hour drive, we're here!"

Sorry not to get down to hear The East Pointers, Charlie, but the Lear Jet needed some work. I hope you enjoyed the concert. Perhaps I'll catch them on the Island in the summer.



Added edit: "just watched the video you linked to, really fun stuff. The video that came on afterwards was a Metis Orange Blossom Special. The fiddling and dancing were great, and hearing the announcer introduce the Orange Blossom with a Canadian accent was pretty cool."

Yeah, we play many American tunes up here, just as you play ours. "Whisky Before Breakfast" is generally regarded as having Canadian Metis origins. And don't tell any Texans out there, but "The Red River Valley" goes back in Manitoba well before the music hall song, "In The Bright Mohawk Valley", that supposedly became "The Red River Valley" (a different Red River). Let's not fight though  :Smile: 

Now, back to our mandolins.

----------

Drew Barton, 

Jess L.

----------


## Ranald

A brief note on "not looking like Natives":

Comments of this sort have come up more than once on this thread. Ethnicity is not a matter of blood line. To a large degree it is a matter of cultural choices made by members of the both ethnic group and the larger society ("you're not one of us, you belong to them"). In five hundred years of contact and intermarriage, you're about as likely to find what some Brits call "a pureblood red Indian" as you are to find a genetically pure Celt or Anglo-Saxon (and please don't use the term "pureblood" unless you're talking about animal breeding). Some Native people have blonde hair and blues eyes or perhaps dark brown skin with curly black hair, but live culturally as Native people and are accepted as such by their relatives and neighbours. Furthermore, most First Nations bands have long histories of adopting outsiders of differing ages. In general, it's not for outsiders to judge who is or is not Native according to their appearances -- which doesn't mean that we can all claim to be indigenous.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## Jess L.

Great info, Ranald, thanks!  :Mandosmiley:

----------

Ranald

----------


## Jess L.

> Quoting from the first paragraph of Diller's blog post: _"The unfortunate trend in this country is to homogenize things."_
> 
> Unfortunate for whom? His beloved Appalachian Old Time is a homogenization already. I think that when one whines about the unfortunate consequences of homogenization, he should be careful to also celebrate the collateral benefits of it.


Excellent point.  :Smile:

----------


## Jim Nollman

The old time well is bottomless.

The first time I ever heard Scottish fiddle music was not in Scotland or Vermont, but during an impromptu session with native Inuvialuit musicians in Inuvik up on the Beaufort Sea in 1987. They told me the tradition had been brought to the Arctic by Scottish trappers who were marrying into their culture 100 years ago. 

Also of note, just last month my wife and I hosted two the most celebrated musicians of modern Contra dance, both of them now in their mid-80s. When I asked the man what he was listening to these days, he pulled out a CD of Andy DeJarlis and gifted it to me. I thought I knew a lot about old time music, but I had to confess to him that I'd never heard of Andy DeJarlis, let alone Metis music which he sometimes referred to it as Saskatchewan tunes. My guest proceeded to give a detailed lecture of the special traits of the music, its origins, its catchiest tunes, and its greatest players. My other guest  then pulled out her fiddle to play the Metis classic, "Big John McNeill."

----------

Jess L., 

Ranald

----------


## Ranald

> The old time well is bottomless.
> 
> Also of note, just last month my wife and I hosted two the most celebrated musicians of modern Contra dance, both of them now in their mid-80s. When I asked the man what he was listening to these days, he pulled out a CD of Andy DeJarlis and gifted it to me. I thought I knew a lot about old time music, but I had to confess to him that I'd never heard of Andy DeJarlis, let alone Metis music which he sometimes referred to it as Saskatchewan tunes. My guest proceeded to give a detailed lecture of the special traits of the music, its origins, its catchiest tunes, and its greatest players. My other guest  then pulled out her fiddle to play the Metis classic, "Big John McNeill."


Thanks, Jim. I'm not sure whether your remark on the "Metis classic, 'Big John MacNeil'" was serious or in jest. "Big John", which has become a Canadian classic, was written by Peter Milne, a Scottish fiddler (1824-1908). To most Canadians, it's "Big John MacNeil", though it's known to Scots, including Milne, and to many Cape Bretoners as "John MacNeil's Reel." The popular New Brunswick fiddler, Don Messer, who had national radio and television shows in the mid-20th century, helped popularize it to the point that I'd call it one of the three favourite tunes of Canadian old-time fiddle devotees. The others are both Canadian tunes: "St. Ann's (or Anne's) Reel", a traditional French-Canadian piece also spread in part by Don Messer, and; "Maple Sugar", by the Ontario fiddler Ward Allen, and also played by Messer -- I can't overemphasize the importance of Don Messer's influence. By now, no doubt "Big John MacNeil" has become a "Metis classic", as it has become a classic for other Canadians.

Boy, we're getting off the original topic of this thread, but Messer's influence brings up the complexity of issues affecting traditional and commercial music. Messer was a fiddler, brought up in a culture of informal fiddling, but also had classical training on violin. He was both a folk (traditional) and commercial musician. His music, coming into homes across the country, greatly affected a large numbers of fiddlers, who in an earlier era would have been learning primarily from local fiddlers in regional styles.

Don Messer, "Big John MacNeil":                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13s0A-Gj_8c

Don Messer, "St. Ann's Reel"                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzAzShZVw_g

Ward Allen, "Maple Sugar":                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIYRYZHZYJc

Here's a good explanation of Metis fiddling techniques with "Big John MacNeil" at 8:40:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZtIL5k2gPM

----------

Jess L.

----------


## Jim Nollman

Ranald, Thanks for the info about Big John. I had no idea.  It makes me suspect that referring to a tune as Metis, often means that the tune has been  embraced by these native musicians who make it their own by playing in the unique Metis style.  Doesn't that also happen with Scottish tunes played within the Cape Breton community? 

Actually, it seems to happen almost everywhere all the time. Next time you're in an old time jam,  focus on what notes the different musicians  are actually playing, and tell me that each person is NOT playing a slightly different melody. 

Then there's the so-called fiddle/mandolin no man's land.  once in a while an anal fiddler will complain I'm not getting the melody right. My usual response is that what I am actually not doing is playing the melody on a fiddle, but on a mandolin.

Or one final example. I recently  learned Durang's hornpipe. When I was looking up recordings of it on Spotify, I found many many versions. Some of them weren't even close to others, although all of them followed the same chord progression, although not always in the same key.  As I learned the tune, I finally chose an A part from one version, and added a B part from another version, and even added a few choice phrases from yet another version. The end result was a new version of Durang's Hornpipe unique to me.

----------

Ranald

----------


## Ranald

> Ranald, Thanks for the info about Big John. I had no idea.  It makes me suspect that referring to a tune as Metis, often means that the tune has been  embraced by these native musicians who make it their own by playing in the unique Metis style.  Doesn't that also happen with Scottish tunes played within the Cape Breton community?


I'm with you Jim, a great many of "our" tunes, no matter who "we" are, are borrowed, put into our style, and played so much that eventually we have a kind of folk ownership of them. You're correct about Cape Breton. Many of the tunes everyone plays are from Scotland and Ireland, or even from Don Messer, but changed into Cape Breton style. "Paddy on The Turnpike" sounds much different with a Cape Breton accent, than when fiddlers in Ontario play it. Many American standards come from other countries as well.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## JeffD

Despite the instrument line-up, and despite playing standing up, still not bluegrass:

----------

Jess L.

----------


## JeffD

> Unfortunate for whom? His beloved Appalachian Old Time is a homogenization already. I think that when one whines about the unfortunate consequences of homogenization, he should be careful to also celebrate the collateral benefits of it.


It is a difficult issue. 

There was a unique musical culture in western PA, that was a melding of Irish and German fiddle tunes and Civil War marches. Samuel Bayard's book Dance to the Fiddle March to the Fife, documents a lot of the music. He bemoans the loss of the entire musical sub-culture because of assimilation into the larger fiddle music culture, typified I suppose, by things like Cole's 1000 Fiddle Tunes, Ryan's Mammoth, Fiddler's Fake Book, etc. The next generation was learning fiddle music from the books and recordings more than from their parents and neighbors parents.

There are areas where, due to local anomalies of geology and geography, a music culture remained isolated from radio broadcasts long into the more modern era, and so have and are losing fast, the last vestiges of a local flavor to their fiddle music. 

It is heartbreaking on the one hand, and amazing on the other. Perhaps it is wonderful that fiddle music is available everywhere on on youtube, and CD and tunebooks, and that it is enticing a lot of folks to participate and join the fun and carry it forward. At the same time it leads to homogenization and loss of local charm.

I grew up in New Jersey, and had no knowledge of folk music or fiddle tunes, or old time, or bluegrass until I had been playing mandolin for several years. So without CDs and tune books and all of that, i would be nowhere. I have no regional culture or tradition to pull from, and never have. So just about my whole musical life is a collateral befit of the same cultural forces that lead to homogenization.

And, for the record, there was hardly any and probably no old time mandolin, until after the folk scare of the '60s anyway.

It is very hard to know how to feel. Very hard to know if I am being genuine, or a pale emulation, or derivative, or what. My solution, as i stated before, is to go into denial - just play the music, often, a lot, constantly, and where important distinctions need to be made I let the music decide.

The ridiculous old time fiddler I referenced earlier once told me "you don't want to have the kind of poverty and bad dentistry that it requires to be genuine."

----------


## Jim Garber

> It is a difficult issue. 
> 
> There was a unique musical culture in western PA, that was a melding of Irish and German fiddle tunes and Civil War marches. Samuel Bayard's book Dance to the Fiddle March to the Fife, documents a lot of the music. He bemoans the loss of the entire musical sub-culture because of assimilation into the larger fiddle music culture, typified I suppose, by things like Cole's 1000 Fiddle Tunes, Ryan's Mammoth, Fiddler's Fake Book, etc. The next generation was learning fiddle music from the books and recordings more than from their parents and neighbors parents.


In the meantime, Bayard documented those tunes and there are people like us who play them. 

I worked with my friend Ray Alden, a wonderful old time musician and collector and documenter of music, in the early days of his organization the *Field Recorders' Collective* and am now on the board for that organization. It is amazing how much documentation has been done recording and and documenting regional old time and other styles of folk music in the US and Canada as well as other regions of the world. In our FRC catalog we cover more than 17 states with regional variants of old time music as well as gospel, Quebecois, Cajun and other ethnic genres and we have only scratched the surface. I have friends outside the organization who have delved deeply into the music of Texas, Mississippi, Illinois, New York, etc. And check out *Virtual Gramophone*, a massive archive of recorded music from all over Canada.

And there are modern musicians who carry on these traditions into this century. And I see this as more of a continuum rather than something that was frozen in time and may never be revived.

----------

Mark Gunter, 

Ranald

----------


## JeffD

> In the meantime, Bayard documented those tunes and there are people like us who play them. 
> ...
> 
> And there are modern musicians who carry on these traditions into this century. And I see this as more of a continuum rather than something that was frozen in time and may never be revived.


Its wonderful.

----------


## A 4

> And I see this as more of a continuum rather than something that was frozen in time and may never be revived.


This reminds me of Harry Bollick, who is reviving tunes from a specific county in Mississippi.  As far as I can tell, this is a completely dead tradition, except tunes were recorded on sheet music during the Depression, but also probably some old 78s.  He is tying to bring these tunes back to life.  Here's a link to him as a guest on the "Get Up in the Cool" podcast:
http://www.camerondewhitt.com/getupi...ol/harrybolick

Jake Blount is a young guy also trying to dig into the recesses of the past, specifically with Black and Native American fiddlers.

Not Bluegrass:



Not Bluegrass:

----------

Ranald

----------


## Jim Garber

[QUOTE=A 4;1644345]This reminds me of Harry Bollick, who is reviving tunes from a specific county in Mississippi.  As far as I can tell, this is a completely dead tradition, except tunes were recorded on sheet music during the Depression, but also probably some old 78s.  He is tying to bring these tunes back to life.  Here's a link to him as a guest on the "Get Up in the Cool" podcast:
http://www.camerondewhitt.com/getupi...ol/harrybolick

Harry is one of my best friends and we play music often. He is the one I mentioned above about the Mississippi traditions.

----------


## Jim Nollman

First of all, a sincere thank you to Jim Garber for all his years of work in digging up these tunes and then making them publicly available via web archiving. Plus, I have never heard of Harry Bollick's work until today, and I can already see that his archive of tunes is yet another great source of old time tunes. 

Comments here about Harry Bollick remind me a bit of what Vivian Williams did after discovering sheet music and set lists passed down from mining and logging camp events in 19th century Idaho. She went and recorded a CD of all the tunes from one particular 19th century event, bypassing modern interpretations of some of the tunes in favor of  the original notation, and, with friends, included voluminous notes on the tunes, the locale, and the band leader.

As I read those notes while listening to the CD, I was surprised by how many distinct dances were represented by that old set list, and especially the way tunes were joined into sets that would involve two or even three different dances, one right after the next. 

Today, so much attention is given to old time tunes among so many avid musicians. And yet, so little attention is given to the dances that go with those tunes. I've played contra dances for some years now, during which our band always includes a few waltzes and an occasional Swedish Hambo, to break up the usual line format. But our band has never played a mazurka, or a quickstep, or a quadrille for people actually doing these dances. And even when we play a polka, of which we know our share, it is always interpreted as a contra dance. 

It makes me wonder. Is there any place in the world where people regularly come together to dance mazurkas and quadrilles and quicksteps? Or have they all gone the way of the watusi the peppermint twist and the mashed potato.

----------


## A 4

And I had never heard of Vivian Williams before.  I am so impressed with the folks who dig deep to save and provide the music for the rest of us.  I am further reminded of the efforts of Alan Jabbour to preserve the music of Henry Reed.  

Jim Garber, since you are friends, thank Harry Bollick for me if you get a chance.  I've got one of his Mississippi tunes into the rotation, having learned it a workshop, and am working on Roll them Simelons, too.

Jim Nollman, thanks for your version of Winderslide, which introduced me to the tune for the first time, via the MP3 collection here at the Mandolincafe.

----------


## Mark Gunter

> In the meantime, Bayard documented those tunes and there are people like us who play them. 
> 
> I worked with my friend Ray Alden, a wonderful old time musician and collector and documenter of music, in the early days of his organization the *Field Recorders' Collective* and am now on the board for that organization. It is amazing how much documentation has been done recording and and documenting regional old time and other styles of folk music in the US and Canada as well as other regions of the world. In our FRC catalog we cover more than 17 states with regional variants of old time music as well as gospel, Quebecois, Cajun and other ethnic genres and we have only scratched the surface. I have friends outside the organization who have delved deeply into the music of Texas, Mississippi, Illinois, New York, etc. And check out *Virtual Gramophone*, a massive archive of recorded music from all over Canada.
> 
> And there are modern musicians who carry on these traditions into this century. And I see this as more of a continuum rather than something that was frozen in time and may never be revived.


Quoting Jim's entire post, because my first thought while reading Jeff's musing about the "difficult issue" was that it is less difficult in our day and time, due to the invention of audio recording.

Music is and always has been in a continuum - that's the way I see it. There was a time when the church resisted every attempt at expanding music - adding colors, changing rhythms, tampering with lyrics - and there was a time when the church, along with scientific philosophies and even mathematicians resisted tempered ("tampered with") tuning schemes. Yet the field of music and the practice and playing of music continued to morph along. Unfortunately, the further back in time we go to study _music_ the less we actually know about what the music was like and how it must have sounded. Fortunately (perhaps), the advent of tempered tuning has allowed music to flower and blossom at a rate never before seen in history, and the current information age homogenization is now playing a role in that as well.

As long as our civilization survives, we'll now have sonic records of much of the music that was extant beginning from the time that field recordings were made. That is cause for celebration!

Worrying over how music is changing is a bit of a lost cause, I think. We have plenty of absolutely great music being played today, and growing from earlier roots. Folk who are overly concerned about their music being changed or lost would do well to simply record their music. The idea that music which was passed down from generation to generation (in the days before recording devices and the information age came to be) was somehow pristine and not in a continuous state of flux is a difficult proposition in and of itself.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## Mark Gunter

> There was a unique musical culture in western PA


Jeff, just to further illustrate how my own mind works in thinking about these things ...

I'm in full sympathy with what your fiend feels, and with your own difficulty grappling with this issue. In my life, I was surrounded by a large extended family in rural Louisiana, and families and relatives used to visit each other. Gatherings that included feasting, working together, playing together and singing together were common. Old songs were sung, _She'll be Coming Round the Mountain, Old Dan Tucker, On Top of Old Smokey,_ etc. etc. In the present day, this type of stuff has all but vanished.

Yet, where music is concerned, virtually none of the old songs and hymns I sang as a child have been lost!

Further, the phrase I quoted above could easily have been finished as follows:

"There was a unique musical culture in Ur of the Chaldess, but ..."
"There was a unique musical culture in Athens around 200 BC, but ..."

----------


## Jim Nollman

I've always felt that the way  music is continually changing is one of the very best things about it. Just look at all the  ways that Appalachian musicians deconstructed their own Irish and Scottish roots music. Fantastic. And once the new genre seemed established awhile, look at the way that Bill Monroe messed with it to create bluegrass. 

Why anyone would complain about this creative process is beyond me. Not to mention how hopeless it is to complain, given that so many dedicated musicians work nonstop to develop an original sound. Let's be happy listening to recordings that go back to the 1920s rather than trying to criticize new arrangements of old tunes, which sounds too much like  the music police. 

 One of the tunes I'm learning this week is Evening Prayer Blues. It came to life not by Bill Monroe nor as bluegrass, but composed on harmonica in 1927 by DeFord Bailey. DeFord was a black composer who performed at the Grand Old Opry. Is that enough reason to label the original as country blues or as country music? I prefer to think of it as Old Time, but for no scholarly reason. 

In learning the tune, I confess to not being a big fan of upbeat bluegrass tremolo. So I've mostly avoided the many versions by established bluegrass mandolin players. That's just me. I started by listening to the original on harmonica by DeFord, then settled on two newer versions which I'll  whittle down to the one I'll  load into the _Amazing Slow Downer_ in order to learn the basic melody to which I will add my own musical "features". The first version I like is by  the Irish fiddler, Kevin Burke. His arrangement actually reminds me of a slow blues recorded by British blues bands in the 1960s. Makes me wonder what Jimi Hendrix would have done with this tune. The second version is by The American Fiddle Ensemble, fronted by Darol Anger, and which displays gorgeous harmonic textures vaguely reminiscent of Stevie Wonder, but filtered through Eurojazz.

----------

Drew Barton, 

Jess L.

----------


## Jess L.

> I've always felt that the way music is continually changing is one of the very best things about it. Just look at all the ways that Appalachian musicians deconstructed their own Irish and Scottish roots music. Fantastic. ...


Yup.  :Mandosmiley:  Well stated.  :Smile:  

Just imagine if the early Appalachian settlers had implemented a strict "no changes allowed in the music" policy. If that had been combined with jealousy guarding their repertoire such that no one else was allowed to hear it except the select few who already maintained the style in the 'correct' manner, there would never have been the development of oldtime American fiddle/banjo styles, as well as no bluegrass.  :Disbelief:  




> ... And once the new genre seemed established awhile, look at the way that Bill Monroe messed with it to create bluegrass. ...


Exactly.  :Smile:  




> .. Why anyone would complain about this creative process is beyond me. ...


I think that for individuals, it's related to a sense of personal loss, an emotional feeling of losing something that's been important in one's life. 

Hearing old recordings of fantastically wonderful things that don't exist anymore, and feeling a different kind of sense of loss, like "why don't they play it like that anymore." 

Part of the problem, IMO, is artificially induced by the very recordings that serve to document the music. 

(a) If people never heard old recordings from before their own time, they would know what they were missing. 

(b) Similarly, even for people who were active participants in an older style that's not being played anymore, if they weren't reminded of it by hearing recordings, it probably wouldn't be such a raw/sensitive subject area. 

Kind of like looking at photos of people who are long since deceased. At times, it can just remind one of one's loss, of what they don't have anymore. In a way, photos - and audio recordings - are like rubbing a person's nose in all the things they've lost that don't exist anymore. Of course, different personality types handle such things differently, and healing occurs that allows such reminders of the past to coexist peacefully with current life. Some people are content with memories, whereas for other people it just re-opens old wounds... 

To hear old recordings of *music* that no one plays anymore, that one had a deep personal connection to in years past, would seem like a futile exercise and not good for much except starting a round of depression, *unless* one has the intent (and the ability) to revive/resurrect the style and/or convince some friends to try playing that style at jams etc and/or find some other useful/practical application for the style. There's a difference between wallowing in the past vs discovering new ways to make old stuff useful again. 

Anyway I think that such emotional angles and feelings of either actual or impending loss are why people get riled up about 'preserving' a style and trying to maintain a 'purity' of genre, such that they become opposed to changes that make the music sound like something different or more 'modern', etc etc.

----------


## JeffD

> Harry is one of my best friends and we play music often. He is the one I mentioned above about the Mississippi traditions.


I met him at Lake Genero just before his book came out. Great guy, very very knowledgeable, lots of fun to jam with. I got his book as soon as I could.

----------


## JeffD

> I've always felt that the way  music is continually changing is one of the very best things about it. .


That is why it is a difficult for me. It feels as if things change faster than the time it takes to really learn about them sometimes.

Of course in the grand scheme of things whatever genre is a snapshot in the continuum of a long history of other music. And what ever one loves came from somewhere, and is going somewhere.

So the process is wonderful because it creates ever new and great music. And the process is hideous because it erodes things just as you start to really "get it" and fall in love.

Embracing the change is even harder for me, because I then hesitate to fall deeply for something that is leaving.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## JeffD

> Quoting Jim's entire post, because my first thought while reading Jeff's musing about the "difficult issue" was that it is less difficult in our day and time, due to the invention of audio recording.


I agree and I disagree.  :Frown:   On the one hand without recording a lot of the music I play would not have been there for me to find. At the same time, the part of old time that I particularly love is in the moment. We playing music with each other, not practicing for a recording, not working on how we want to be remembered. 

Similarly with tune books. They preserve something, and by preserving it they help in its ossification. 




Same with tune book

----------


## JeffD

> The old time well is bottomless.


Yes.

And bottomless as a philosophical topic as well I fear.  :Smile:

----------


## Jim Nollman

Although bottomless, who can say exactly what the old time grab bag actually encompasses. I get advertised as a player of old time music, but my performance includes 16th century English dance tunes, to Durangs hornpipe written in the newly formed USA of the late 1700s, to civil war tunes like Booth Shot Lincoln and Abe's Retreat, to  chromatic waltzes from the 1910s, to southern string band rags and quadrilles from the 1930s some of which remind me of New Orleans Jazz and others of Debussy, to Cape Breton reels, to several tunes composed in the last 30 years by the likes of JP Fraley and the Wailing Jennies. 

It's not rock and roll. It's not bluegrass. It sounds a lot like old time to me. And yet a lot of the fiddle players who think they know best what this music is supposed to sound like, don't think very much of mandolin players leading the melody.

----------


## pops1

Old time music was a constantly changing music from the beginning. As touring musicians came thru they would learn tunes from the local musicians. By the next day and the next town they would play the new tunes as best as they could remember them. They then were learned by those folks in the town and a repeat of this would continue on. Fiddle tunes and styles of fiddling varied not only from state to state, but from county to county. When a recording was done, it was the persons version of the tune as they played it. It may have already changed a dozen times before it was recorded so even the old recording are not necessarily the original tune.

----------

Jess L.

----------


## Mando Mort

Unfortunately, much time is spent on this site arguing about musical labels.  I could care less what people call their music.  I like lots of different styles and don't care if I break some stupid rules by blending different styles.  Why not be more inclusive rather than more exclusive?  Doesn't make sense...

----------

Bill Kammerzell

----------


## Bill Kammerzell

> Unfortunately, much time is spent on this site arguing about musical labels.  I could care less what people call their music.  I like lots of different styles and don't care if I break some stupid rules by blending different styles.  Why not be more inclusive rather than more exclusive?  Doesn't make sense...


For me music of all genres constantly evolve. Like the evolution of Charley Monroe's 1948 version of Rosa Lee McFall up thru the Grateful Dead version. Not everyone likes being inclusive, but I sure do. Fact is, Charley might not have written that though he is often given credit. There is a Library of Congress entry from 1937 for a J.M. Pasley listed for that song.

----------

Jim Botluk, 

Mark Gunter

----------

