# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Griffith Loar A-5 drawings?

## Vernon Hughes

Are there any accurate griffith loar a-5 plans out there taken from the original? Are siminoffs accurate? Thanks!

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## Mike Black

Siminoff's drawings are supposed to be from the Griffith A5, but I know for sure that the headstock is way off.  Someone said that he reduced it to 75% from the original so it would fit in a normal case.   There are a few threads that have a lot of information in regards to the A5 including one with the Hacklinger gauge measurements of the top and back taken by the late great John Sullivan.

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## j. condino

There is some amazing information on that one particular mandolin in a very tidy specific technical reference package for luthiers that is lurking on the near horizon that will eventually be available to the public. It is not my work, but I've seen it and it will set a new standard. For now, reading up on those old threads and finding a luthier dork type who has had good hands-on contact with it are your best bet. John's hack' maps are pretty accurate. He was a great guy and amazing builder who lived just a few blocks away from me in Portland.

Mike, did you hack' the rib thickness when you saw it?

The Griffith A  is my favorite Loar! :Wink: 

j.
www.condino.com

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## f5loar

I know who doesn't have it...... The Gibson Co.   Their attempt to copy it in the 90s as the A5L is about as far from the original as you can get.  I know a few high end luthiers that made their own spec sheets but I'm sure they would not want me to tell.

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j. condino, 

stratman62

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## Vernon Hughes

I've been pouring over the years old threads here,and have the great grad specs that most everybody else has..I'm assuming someone, while having it in hand, made at least a tracing of the body and peghead? I'm happy so far with this first attempt at a replica A5,just was hoping to get something drawn off the beast itself to see how close I am.

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## fatt-dad

can I come play it when it's done?  I love these projects!

f-d

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## Darryl Wolfe

Let me just say this, and only once.  The only thing secret and special about the Loar A5 is that there is nothing secret and special about the Loar A5.  If you have a Loar era snakehead mandolin of any model in your hands, there is nothing else to figure out.  Just build the thing 1-3/8 thick instead of 1-1/2, carve the top and back the same (as the oval hole snake) but suddenly dive it under the fingerboard extension.  Install the neck/15th fret the same distance from the tip of the body as the F5's are.  Cut the f-holes in the appropriate position in relationship to the bridge.  DONE

I learned this 3-4 years ago when I made a special trip to visit and measure it.  I took my F5 and my A4 with me for comparison.  Until this time (now), I have been hesistante to soften the mystique of the A5 with my findings.  But I could have left my Loar F5 at home. So, think A-model forms...all of them...slightly modifiy to suit.

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Benjamin T, 

DataNick, 

dave vann, 

David Rambo, 

djweiss, 

Fretbear, 

j. condino, 

Jim Garber, 

Marty Jacobson, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Paul Statman, 

Roman Pekar, 

Spruce, 

stratman62, 

sunburst, 

Vernon Hughes, 

Westbrook

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## terzinator

So easy a child could do it!

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## Darryl Wolfe

> So easy a child could do it!


Any decent luthier with a snakehead A4 in one hand and a decent straight on shot of the A5 in the other.

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j. condino, 

Vernon Hughes

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## Jim Garber

> Let me just say this, and only once.  The only thing secret and special about the Loar A5 is that there is nothing secret and special about the Loar A5.  If you have a Loar era snakehead mandolin of any model in your hands, there is nothing else to figure out.  Just build the thing 1-3/8 thick instead of 1-1/2, carve the top and back the same (as the oval hole snake) but suddenly dive it under the fingerboard extension.  Install the neck/15th fret the same distance from the tip of the body as the F5's are.  Cut the f-holes in the appropriate position in relationship to the bridge.  DONE
> 
> I learned this 3-4 years ago when I made a special trip to visit and measure it.  I took my F5 and my A4 with me for comparison.  Until this time (now), I have been hesistante to soften the mystique of the A5 with my findings.  But I could have left my Loar F5 at home. So, think A-model forms...all of them...slightly modifiy to suit.


That is very interesting. So all Loar era mandolins (including F5s) have the same top carving profile? That would basically mean that the major sound-producing difference would be the position of the bridge, the f-holes, the bracing and (as you mention above) the depth of the soundbox?

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## Darryl Wolfe

That is correct Jim.  Edit, I may have read you wrong.  F5's are F5's, A models are A models (including the A5), with respect to basic carving profiles for the tops and backs.  The A5 used the same rib/sides fixture as the rest of the A models.  Some folks think the A5 peghead is different, it is not.

Here is a more properly positioned comparison.  Anybody want to move on to how some A2z's got curly maple backs??

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Jim Garber, 

Marty Jacobson

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## Jim Garber

> That is correct Jim.  Edit, I may have read you wrong.  F5's are F5's, A models are A models (including the A5), with respect to basic carving profiles for the tops and backs.  The A5 used the same rib/sides fixture as the rest of the A models.  Some folks think the A5 peghead is different, it is not.


I was just reading Tut's account *here*. In it he mentions this:




> Dr. Griffith's wife , on occasion, would borrow his F-5 to play or teach. The points on the mandolin hurt her legs so she asked Dr. Griffith to he an F-5 without any points.


So F5 has a different carving pattern than an A? How about an F4 -- how does that compare in terms of carving patterns?

It sort of does make sense but did Mrs. Griffith actually get, as Tut says, an F5 without points or, as you say, an A with F-holes?

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## Darryl Wolfe

She got an A with F-holes and a longer neck orientation and Style 5 appointments.

The F5 has a carving pattern for the top
The F4 has a carving pattern for the top
They share the carving pattern and body molds for the back and the rim set

All A models share the same carving pattern for the top and back...and share the rim set body mold/form.

The A5 was made off of the same three patterns as all other A-models.
The A5 neck was roughed out and mostly finished as an F5 neck.. and cut with the same snakehead template as the A models. 

It is possible that they made a carving pattern for the top of the A5 instead of modifying the spruce top it has afterwards.  Either way, they modified something that was carved from the same A4/A2 pattern be it a spruce top or a new hardwood pattern..

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j. condino, 

Jim Garber

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## j. condino

Darryl pretty much sums it up about this mandolin and a lot of others! The same basic ideas goes for the ten string. The big mystery is that if you don't have the whole scroll obsession thing, you only have a few choices in historic instruments, so this one stands out in the scroll geek crowd. It was made in a factory where guys were concerned about going to lunch on time and getting the weekend off and not getting yelled at by the managemnet dorks who called the neck a "handle"  and considered themselves a musician because they won a yodelling contest in high scool..... :Wink: 

j.
www.condino.com

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Vernon Hughes

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## Spruce

> The A5 neck was roughed out and mostly finished as an F5 neck.. and cut with the same snakehead template as the A models.


Any speculation as to how the A5 neck wound up to be offset, in a similar manner to the F5s??
Maybe they just modified a pre-cut F5 block, and thus the similarity??

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## Darryl Wolfe

Again, I mentioned softening or diluting the mystique of the Loar A5.  As James says the 10 string was done the same way..in a factory.

But, these two instruments DO have a special place and mystique.  They are unlike any other Style 5 instruments and they are unlike their visually similar A and H model kins

Both sound like a Loar Style 5 instrument.

The Loar A5 sounds similar, but yet very different than Loar F5's.  This is because it is different.  It has a less symetrical and more elongated curvature to the top.  It has substantially more air volume inside than an F5, because the vibrating top and back plates are indeed much longer than the F5.  In fact, if the A5 had been fitted with an F5 peghead, it would not fit in any of the cases made for an F5.  They might have even figured that out beforehand.

Most everything I have said about the A5 holds true for the 10-string mando-viola.  It was made from the H2 madola forms and carving patterns and modified to suit.

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j. condino, 

stratman62

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...considered themselves a musician because they won a yodelling contest in high scool.....


Do you mean someone else actually won a yodeling contest in high school?

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j. condino, 

stratman62, 

Trey Young

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## Darryl Wolfe

> Any speculation as to how the A5 neck wound up to be offset, in a similar manner to the F5s??
> Maybe they just modified a pre-cut F5 block, and thus the similarity??


Yes...that more or less fits the same situation.  If you look at the body (and not the neck), everything was done like an F5 in that area.  The position of the cross piece and it's relationship to the dovetail is like an F5.  A typical A model has the crosspiece much further south.  So, however they were fitting necks and cutting dovetails had to match the neck they were fitting to it....and there is the replicated offset.

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Spruce, 

Vernon Hughes

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here is the only subject that deserves a real Hmmmm.....

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robert.najlis, 

Spruce

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## MikeEdgerton

Darryl, was the Ms. Griffith Loar drilled for a pickguard?

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## Spruce

Yep.
The pickguard was floating in the case when I played it...

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stratman62

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## Darryl Wolfe

One more of my comparison shots.  Keep in mind that the two photos are not precisely the same angle

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j. condino, 

Spruce, 

stratman62

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## Darryl Wolfe

Pickguard???...The one I traced?

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## Spruce

This is probably a pic I robbed from these pages (yours Darryl?), but I've got one here that's similar, with a 'guard floating in the case...

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## sunburst

All this further confirms my impression of the Gibson factory of the day. "They used what they had". New designs take time (time=$$), so if you already have an "A" body mold and snake head templates, you're done with the design phase! Just add F-holes!

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j. condino, 

Vernon Hughes

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## Jim Garber

I love this stuff, guys! Thanks a ton, Darryl for filling in all these blanks.

I wonder what they charged Griffith for this one. Any sales receipts? I am just curious. There really wasn't a custom shop at that time -- it seems like there were very few one-off instruments. I have seen at least one 12 string A model plus the aforementioned 10- string Loar and the truly oddball post-Loar Lil Pup.

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## Darryl Wolfe

> I love this stuff, guys! Thanks a ton, Darryl for filling in all these blanks.
> 
> I wonder what they charged Griffith for this one. Any sales receipts? I am just curious. There really wasn't a custom shop at that time -- it seems like there were very few one-off instruments. I have seen at least one 12 string A model plus the aforementioned 10- string Loar and the truly oddball post-Loar Lil Pup.


That one truly is unique.  I would be looking to see if they possibly used one side of an F5 mold to achieve that.  Note that the body is unquestionably shorter than an A from the period, and likely replicates the length and configuration of an F body on the treble bout w/o one point

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## terzinator

is that two-point mold the same as later two-points? The points certainly look smaller than the Jethro ones, but maybe it's just an illusion.

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## Fretbear

> Here is the only subject that deserves a real Hmmmm.....


Those F holes are definitely smaller than on the F style, but still look a bit wider than what was used on the Loar mandolas.

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## Larry Mossman

I have a (somewhat) related question -  are there any recordings of this Loar A5 ?  
Would love to hear this instrument.   thx - Larry

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## djweiss

Tone Poems Vol 1 (Grisman and Rice) and Aereoplane (John Hartford) albums have it.  Tut Taylor put out a youtube video with it, as well.

-DJW

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## terzinator

> Tone Poems Vol 1 (Grisman and Rice)


anyone have a list of which instruments are on which tracks? (I downloaded this album from iTunes a few years ago; one downside being I don't have any documentation or liner notes...)

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## Paul Kotapish

> So easy a child could do it!




"Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make heads nor tails of it." 

(_Duck Soup_)

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Vernon Hughes

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## djweiss

This thread lists the instruments...Loar A5 on track 9.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ms-instruments

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## Spruce

> Tone Poems Vol 1 (Grisman and Rice) and Aereoplane (John Hartford) albums have it.


There's a tune of Tut's called "Ruff 'n Ready"  on Steam Powered Aereo-Takes that _really_ shows off what that mandolin can do...
Really nice recording, too...

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## terzinator

> This thread lists the instruments...Loar A5 on track 9.
> 
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ms-instruments


By my calculations, that would be "I Don't Want Your Mandolins Mister"

Supple. Poppy. Sure sounds nice.

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## Darryl Wolfe

There is also an obscure Tut Taylor album with "Griffith Mandolin Society" recorded by Tut on it.  It's a very earworming simplistic recording, but fabulous tune.   Remeber, Tut is missing some portions of a finger or two, which is likely why he played Dobro in the first place.  With that said, he does a mandolin like nobody else.

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stratman62

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## djweiss

Tut's video:

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stratman62, 

Westbrook

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## mandotool

> There is also an obscure Tut Taylor album with "Griffith Mandolin Society" recorded by Tut on it.  It's a very earworming simplistic recording, but fabulous tune.   Remeber, Tut is missing some portions of a finger or two, which is likely why he played Dobro in the first place.  With that said, he does a mandolin like nobody else.


pure gold...Thanks Darryl
Found it herehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B6fLwQjegk

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Bigtuna

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## Phil Goodson

Anybody know which mandos are used on the songs on this link?  Is Tut playing?  Is the A-5 used?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B6fLwQjegk

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## tom.gibson

Hi all,

I think is still broadly on topic. I'm interested to know what the Helmholtz/air chamber frequency of the Loar A5 is. I remember reading in an old thread that it's the same D sharpish frequency as the F5, but was a bit sceptical. As Darryl Wolfe says, "it has substantially more air volume than an F5." 

Has anyone here been intimate enough to hum in its holes?

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j. condino

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

> Tut's video:


Thank you for posting that. This was the video I was looking for. I remember seeing it a while back and was blown away.  There are a couple of 'outtakes' from the short film also:

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## Vernon Hughes

tom.gibson..The A-5 copy I just built,by chance,error or luck pretty much pegs a D# when tapped in front of my strobe tuner when it was in the white..I just finished buffing it out ( my first time power buffing,went better than I expected) and hope to get it strung up this weekend and will post a video..We'll see!

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tom.gibson

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## Timbofood

I gotta buy more popcorn before I start reading any more! Fascinating information Darryl! And the rest of you too.

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stratman62

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## Spruce

> Any decent luthier with a snakehead A4 in one hand and a decent straight on shot of the A5 in the other.


All righty, that does it...

I'm nowhere near "decent", but it's time to pull the trigger on building a #74003 copy...
Been wanting to do this for a long time now...

My friend John Sullivan had massive plans to build a few #74003 copies, and never got the chance...   :Frown: 
I inherited the wood that he had picked out, and it matches the original very nicely...
Red Spruce top, and a nice hard maple back...
All glued up and ready to roll, so John was pretty close to getting to these...  
Oh well...

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Jim Garber, 

Vernon Hughes

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## sunburst

I don't remember where this wood came from, Bruce, but it might be destined for some mind of "copy" eventually.

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## Jim Garber

> All righty, that does it...
> 
> I'm nowhere near "decent", but it's time to pull the trigger on building a #74003 copy...
> Been wanting to do this for a long time now...
> 
> My friend John Sullivan had massive plans to build a few #74003 copies, and never got the chance...  
> I inherited the wood that he had picked out, and it matches the original very nicely...
> Red Spruce top, and a nice hard maple back...
> All glued up and ready to roll, so John was pretty close to getting to these...  
> Oh well...


So, Bruce, are you going to make the mandolin?

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## sunburst

> So, Bruce, are you going to make the mandolin?


He's been threatening to as long as I've known him...  :Wink:

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Spruce, 

stratman62

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## MikeEdgerton

This will be a tough build as he is the king of distressing instruments.

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## Spruce

> So, Bruce, are you going to make the mandolin?


As we speak...




> He's been threatening to as long as I've known him...


 :Smile: 




> This will be a tough build as he is the king of distressing instruments.


Hey, the last time I saw #74003 it was getting pretty hammered...
_Lots_ of new wear and tear...
_That_ will be the easy part...

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## MikeEdgerton

I don't know Bruce, it just won't be the same without some mud on it and a hotel sticker.  :Cool: 

I'm looking forward to seeing it.

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## delsbrother

So if I understand the video correctly, technically (though not legally) the mandolin still belongs to Tut? Talk about awkward.

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## j. condino

> He's been threatening to as long as I've known him...


If the rest of us lived a few hundred yards down the road from Doe Bay Hotsprings, like Bruce does, we'd have a good excuse for the same kind of  long term "distractions"... :Wink:  :Wink:  :Wink: 

I remember seeing those plates all glued up at John's house;'glad to see you got them Bruce. It will be a nice tribute to your old friend.

j.
www.condino.com

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## MikeEdgerton

> So if I understand the video correctly, technically (though not legally) the mandolin still belongs to Tut? Talk about awkward.


I think you should consider the video a story, I don't think Tut still owns it.

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## Spruce

> I don't think Tut still owns it.


Nope.
Probably one of his biggest regrets...

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stratman62

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## sunburst

> If the rest of us lived a few hundred yards down the road from Doe Bay Hotsprings, like Bruce does, we'd have a good excuse for the same kind of  long term "distractions"...


Can't find enough distractions around Asheville James?  :Wink:  (There are always plenty around here...)

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j. condino

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## Dale Ludewig

Obviously....  :Smile:

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## Vernon Hughes

I finally finished my take on the A-5..pics posted in the post a picture thread..
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...n-finally-done!

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## mtucker

There's a nice fake A5 right now at Carmel  :Wink:

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## Vernon Hughes

yea,i'll say..I've got many years to go before I could get anywhere near that good..She's a beaut!

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## f5loar

A "Fake" A5 would have the "The Gibson" logo at the top and possibly some nice copied signed labels with serial no. 
And yes there are some real "Fake" A5s out there.

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Vernon Hughes

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## Eric Oliver

> Here is the only subject that deserves a real Hmmmm.....


It appears to me the A-5 has a longer scale length, but is that true?

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## j. condino

Longer than an A0-A4, but the same as an F5.

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## craigw

I have built over a half dozen "Griffith Loar" copies and started initially with the Siminoff plans. I discovered early on that his peghead footprint wasn't true to the original snakehead pattern, being shorter and wider in the upper aspect than the period snakeheads. i got a chance to have a visit with the "Griffith" a few years back when Tut Taylor had it at IBMA in Nashville on display in the Elderly Instruments booth. I was able to do a little measuring to refine my future pegheads. Here are a couple of shots of my latest "Griffith" copy. This one has an engleman top with birdseye maple back, sides and neck. I try to get the pickguard as accurate as I can including a period date stamp. I have always used the same "Loar" scale on the A fretboards as on the Fs. The body is a little longer measuring from the endpin to the 15th fret marker, the f holes are a little more delicate and placed forward and and at a greater angle than the fs due to the forward arching.
I'll post a couple of shots of a "Griffith" copy I completed a few weeks ago. This one has an Engleman top and Birdseye Maple back, sides and neck. I try to capture an accurate pickguard copy that includes a period date stamp.

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Westbrook, 

William Smith

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## Eric Oliver

> Here is the only subject that deserves a real Hmmmm.....


I remain stumped as to what Mr. Darryl is suggesting in that photo that he considers Hmmmm-worthy.

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## William Smith

> I remain stumped as to what Mr. Darryl is suggesting in that photo that he considers Hmmmm-worthy.


The F-hole placement is different between the two I believe.

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## peter.coombe

> The F-hole placement is different between the two I believe.


Nope.  The size of the F-hole is different.  The A5 F-hole is smaller.  The was probably done to keep the tuning of the main air mode the same.  One reason why it sounds like a Loar.

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j. condino

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## j. condino

It is looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo  ooooong overdue for a lot of people to drop all of the Loar unicorns + fairy dust and actually get a job in a factory to see how production works: 

Grab whatever is handy from the stock of readily available parts like the well established A body rib garland, saw the scroll off an F5 top with the soundholes already cut, grab an F5 neck and mod it to a snakehead, likewise for a back, put the parts together and get it out the door before the Pavlovian alarm rings for lunch. End of story, No unicorns. No fairy dust. 'A  simple conglomerate of existing parts that probably took less than three hours of total production time. 

End of story, & end of single unit production. No more made. No more effort spent. Go back to work making the current production models until the next alarm rings for mid day break time.....That is how all factories work, the same way a $30,000 Martin D45 takes approx. 1 1/2 hours of total production time.....

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Jeff Hildreth, 

John Soper, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Rick Jones

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## Eric Oliver

James -
The message about the industrial process that created the Griffith A-5 is understood. I always appreciate your comments - anyone that builds archtop instruments that has surface areas measured in a percent-of-acre deserves a listen.
Mr. Wolfe reported on the non-glamorous origins here 7 years ago. But following those comments on that he offers an image of the A beside an F with the header about something to consider, to Hmmm over.
I see two industrial products. I thought I knew the scale lengths were the same, but in that image the A appeared longer. You confirmed that item.
The bridge is where it has to be. The f holes are where they have to be.
So back to the image...
I'm down to top-bound A and what appears a single-bound F...

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## j. condino

> .... anyone that builds archtop instruments that has surface areas measured in a percent-of-acre deserves a listen.....


That's a great comment! (For the confused observers, I also build double basses.) The two have little in common, but I'll admit that building basses seems much more of a peaceful athletic undertaking while mandolins are much more fussy...

I've played the Griffith, I've measured it,  spent the whole day with it, & regularly admitted that it is probably my favorite Loar. Much of what I like about it is that it gets the job done exceptionally well while maintaining a simple package that is easy to produce. BUT, the basic idea is that they got the formula right by using a combination of existing things that already worked well. Enjoy it for what it is, but feel free to step outside of the box. Lloyd was also a solid violin player. My guess is that he applied the classic cremona build approaches to the mandolin combined with some exceptional wood.

The main reason for the funky bridge placement is that the corpus of an F5 and a teens / '20s  A have a different length from the endpin to the button, F5s being slightly shorter. The bridge position compensates for this. The corpus sizes are also the reason why many modern builders, myself included, use the F5 proportions as their A model:  standardized  feel and build process.

The Gibson factory at that time employed a number of exceptionally skilled European immigrants. I'd bet that more than a couple were trained in some of the violin making schools and applied what they knew to the modern fretted instruments. I'd venture to say that Loar recognized their individual skill sets and utilized them as much as possible, the way a smart young lieutenant will find the most battle seasoned sergeant to teach them the ropes. 

When I was at the the Oberlin Acoustics seminar, in addition to Stradivari violins and such, they analyzed the classic Loar era 16" L5. 'Hit it with lasers and all the science tech, then the reverse engineer it using the same manner that a classic Cremona trained violin builder would start out with a set of dividers & center point, make some arcs, cross the lines, and in a few minutes you'll have the whole classic Italian violin design laid out in symmetry. The 16" L5 worked out almost 100% perfect; my guess is that it was not coincidence. Many of the same approaches would have been used across the spectrum for the production instruments...after trying a few prototypes. 

I'd gather that this one was a prototype that worked. I've always been surprised that they made only one, but it would have been easy for other companies to copy, unlike the F series. If you want my larger theory about design evolution in the A series 100 years ago: 

The company built paddlehead oval holed A models. Lloyd took one of those and built himself an experimental ten string paddlehead mandola. Next, the company came out with snakeheads. He then made the snakehead mandola  prototype (I've played and blueprinted that one too). That worked well, so they took a customer order for a snakehead A5 (the Griffith- a paid experiment). That also worked well, so Loar  expanded the idea and made himself a new snakehead ten string mandola with F holes. It was a great idea that worked well, but then we all know the story of him having too much eggnog at the company Christmas party with some of the management wives and then somehow he lost his job soon after.... :Wink:

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Northwest Steve, 

Rick Jones, 

William Smith

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## Graham McDonald

James, was that L-5 data ever published? I cannot see any obvious link on the Oberlein Acoustics site.

Thanks

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## j. condino

Nope. 

The Oberlin summer workshops are a tremendous source of cutting edge lutherie from all angles, but their emphasis is not on publishing. It is about inspiring people with a hands on approaches to scientific analysis and real time information sharing, taught by some of the best builders in the world. I highly recommend it to anyone with an inquisitive mind who likes a rational, methodical approach to analyzing specific material properties and then going big testing the end result. Ever watch The Red Violin with their Hollywood frequency testing of the violin? It is that sort of thing.  

I do know that the Griffith Loar had all of this number crunching analysis done about six years ago by one of the greatest mandolin builders in the world, who has been going to the Oberlin sessions for a decade. So far, I do not believe it has been made available to the public. I've seen a sneak preview- there is some amazing data in it.....but....for most folks it is pretty heady. 'Better off to build a lot of mandolins from the same batch of woods, listen to your ears, and keep good notes. 

One of the biggest takeaways I got from  Oberlin was in systematic measuring the qualities of your wood- density, mass, specific gravity, using a  Lucci meter to measure the seed of sound, and then calculating the radiation ratio to try and get consistency of materials from instrument to instrument. This is a common approach in the violin and bowmaking world. Almost all pernambuco suppliers give a Lucci reading on every stick of wood sold. You can take all of the measurements you want, but if one mandolin is super dense red spruce, the next is featherweight Engleman, the one after that is punky red cedar, then you need some kind of system to equalize them. 

My well published and proven mandolin plate testing jig was created in response to all of this after the fact. I spent a tremendous amount of money and time on my education and subsequent research, but as a mandolin builder, I don't give a can of beans about pretty math diagrams and fancy visual representations. I want to build mandolins that sound great, have a ton of headroom, are consistent from instrument to instrument, and kick @$$ in a good jam session. Being able to achieve all of this and string it up live with only 11 hours of building time is priceless to me and represents 40 years of  studying instrument building  & 350+ builds. I use it extensively in teaching other builders. I did live demonstrations of the rig at the Guild of American Luthiers Convention and at the ASIA Symposium. You can read more about the whole system published in  American Lutherie, and a couple of threads here: 

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...lins-in-2-days

'Hope that helps....

'Apologies for the thread derail. Back to the original story: Griffith A = very cool mandolin. Build one; don't sweat the little stuff!

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Northwest Steve, 

Rick Jones

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## pheffernan

> Darryl pretty much sums it up about this mandolin and a lot of others! The same basic ideas goes for the ten string.





> Most everything I have said about the A5 holds true for the 10-string mando-viola.  It was made from the H2 madola forms and carving patterns and modified to suit.


So James, with your measurements of the snakehead H2 mandola #75109 discovered at ETSU, do you have any plans to build a tribute to Loars ten string #70321?

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## j. condino

About ten years ago I built four different ten string mandolas. No current orders for one on the books.

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pheffernan

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## pheffernan

> About ten years ago I built four different ten string mandolas. No current orders for one on the books.


If you ever build one to stock, let me know. While I’ve spent this year’s budget, I haven’t blown next year’s yet!  :Laughing:

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j. condino

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## Eric Oliver

Bump.

"Back to the original story: Griffith A = very cool mandolin. Build one; don't sweat the little stuff!" James Condino
Here's my 'Field Grade' interpritation of the Griffith. No little stuff sweated here for sure.

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j. condino

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## Don Grieser

That looks great, Eric. How did it turn out tone-wise? I recently got a Stanley A5 that has the forward shifted ff holes, the A oval body size/shape, and the bridge in front of the top of the arch. It's an exceptional mandolin. I wonder why more people don't build them--it's a design that really works for getting that tone.

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## Eric Oliver

Don,
It might look good from 2,000 miles away...but thanks.
It is still very young. It will need a proper set-up. I'm using a persimmon nut at the moment while the thing settles in...But I like it. It seems to have good sustain, woody and a little woofy on chops and clear and articulate singles.
It's my first red spruce top. 
I do like the balance from the long head block and forward neck set.
I watch the long list of trophy wives, I mean, mandolins you run through with envy. I hope we get to MMC this fall. It needs a lot of hard picking work, and of course I can barely play.

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## Don Grieser

Would love to play it. I'd like to get to MMC, but they aren't making it easy for people who have to fly in.

The Heiden will always be here. The others rotate through from time to time.

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## siminoff

Was excited to come across this thread. When I saw the Griffith A5 at Tut's home back in the mid-1970s, I took a bunch measurements and photos but couldn't get a good tracing of the peghead because of the machines getting in the way. The mandolin was really tight in the F5 case and when we did our A5 Drawings in 2001 - as someone correctly stated previously - we shortened the peghead (which always troubled me a bit) so folks wouldn't have trouble putting the instrument in a standard A-model case. When working on the introduction of the F5L in Kalamazoo around 1978 or 1979 I came across a bunch of the early brass templates and found one for the 1924 A1 snake peghead, and I was able to get a great tracing of it. Although I assume it was the same shape and length as the "Griffith" A5, I have no way of knowing if it is really the same since I don't have access to that A5. 

Many months back I prepared a drawing of the A5 tracing for a few folks who asked for it, but I am still not including it with our A5 Drawing sets because all the other views in the drawings show the shorter peghead length, and case length is still an issue. I put the page (PDF - free download) up on my website for any of you who might want to have it - www.siminoffbooks.com - in the Technical Resources page. 

I'd enjoy knowing if the A1 snake peghead was actually the same size and shape as the peghead of the Griffith A5.

Best to all... Roger

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amowry, 

Bob Schmidt, 

Boharm, 

j. condino, 

jim simpson, 

Mandolin Cafe

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## j. condino

Thx Roger; great to see you here!

The free page PDF is very handy, as well as the mention to use the correct size printer paper. :Smile: 

I've heard mention of those old brass headplate templates from some other folks with a possibility that they are in different hands now after Gibson cleared out the Kalamazoo factory. There was an old guy here in town who was at the "garage sale" when they closed up who purchased a whole bunch of interesting things. He somehow wound up with the entire rack of old leftover shell inlay logos from the 1920s & '30s ( hundreds of them) along with some tooling and such. He passed a while back and I believe the family tossed it all in the dumpster...

Having worked in a factory production environment in the past, I can't imagine if they had an existing brass template already made up that they would make up something completely different for a one off instrument.

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## HoGo

I must have scans and tracings of the brass templates somewhere, as well as of the only remaining original F mould, but cannot locate them right now (among the hundreds of Gigs of accumulated data about Loars)
I wonder where original a style moulds are. I noticed one on the internet that could possibly be original teens gibson mould but have no idea where it is. I have just one pic.
There was a thread about two distinctly different body sizes of old A's few years ago so some differences may be seen on headstocks - if template got damaged or lost they woul make new one which may not be exact match of the previous.
The F-5 mould actually also spots a bit deeper "cutaway" than regular Loar F-5, but typically seen on earlier F-4s so they probably had several moulds that didn't match exactly in some (for them unimportant) details.

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j. condino

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## MikeEdgerton

Darryl Wolfe says the A5 headstock is not different in *this* thread.

And shows a comparison picture in *this* message in the same thread

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j. condino

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## siminoff

Thanks James, and I hope all is well with you, that you're keeping busy, and have stayed clear of this coronavirus thing.

Very sad that so many wonderful tools and fixtures made their way to the dumpsters and into the hands of treasure hunters. I'd much prefer knowing that some of them are in the hands of luthiers who are using them to breath life into new instruments.

Best,
R

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j. condino

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## Timbofood

Hey Roger! Nice to hear from you. I know you would not remember me but, I worked with Bill Halsey at Homespun Music back when you were working on the F-5L project. Anyway, I think I remember Bill making a tracing of the brass template of several peg heads. I may be mistaken but, he might have some insight on this.
Anyway, glad you are still involved Roger!
I agree it is really heart breaking to know so many historically significant parts and pieces of the company ended up in drawers and landfills!
Be well.

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## siminoff

Hi Tim - great to hear from you! 
Yes, Bill had access to those templates, too. He, Abe Wechter, and I had fun going through them. It was a treasure chest of history. Wish I had taken some photos back then.
Best,
Roger

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## Eric Oliver

Now is the time for me to thank Roger for his mandolin building book. Mine is a 2008 model. Thanks for the book and various block sets, plans and such. (Also, thanks for the Go Devil valve guide video).

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j. condino

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## ellisppi

Not a mandolin, but I do own this.

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j. condino

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## MikeEdgerton

> Not a mandolin, but I do own this.


Nice!

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## j. condino

> Not a mandolin, but I do own this.


#@$% Yes!!! Proof that bigfoot exists.... :Wink: 

Very nice Weldon Lister engraved tailpiece!

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