# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Classical plectrum choice

## Bryon Winger

Hey folks. I'm not certain this is really the proper section to post a pick question, but being as it seems to pertain mostly to the classical genre I thought I'd give it a shot.

I have been eyeing up Red Bear's versions of the Neapolitan and Roman plectrums for a short while now. I am curious about the difference in technique between the two schools and am not sure which I should try first.

I do have Mair's book and she recommends the Pettine style. I have also recently tried my hand at making a Roman plectrum, but I can't say that I understand how to properly use it. So far I don't prefer it - of course, I'm also second guessing whether or not I have it beveled enough or properly, if I'm holding it correctly etc.

I'm mostly interested in the technique differences from someone who has tried both. I'm also curious as to how popular the two plectrum styles are in the non-bluegrass world compared the more common guitar pick shapes.

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## vkioulaphides

Hello, Bryon.

As you may know, we are open-minded, non-doctrinaire folks in this little corner of the Café, so please rest assured that you haven't stepped right into a hornet's nest ;-) That said, words are poor substitutes for personal, tactile experience; we can talk all the way to infinity and back, and still not have helped you anywhere near as much as personal trial and error would.

With all the above duly disclaimed: I have tried just about all kinds of mandolin picks— the "Neapolitan" being by far the most common. (Yet, even there, you will find several variants with significant differences between them.) Guitar picks are generally not appropriate, although some folks do use them, and to good effect. As of the last 3-4 years, I have settled on/with Roman (a.k.a. Ranieri) picks, but that may very well be because I come from a bowed-string background, or whatever other quirk in my musical upbringing. This is a minority-within-a-minority view.

I am told —but have no personal experience, pro or con— that Red Bear's Roman picks are too thick to be of use; YMMV. I have also tried thin, Pettine picks, and did like them quite a lot, at least for a while. I had also had several picks made on Calace's specifications, and used (and liked) _them_ for a while, too.

In short: carve your own path. Try ALL sorts of picks! Ultimately, you alone are the final authority on what works best for you.

Cheers,

Victor

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## Bryon Winger

Thank you Victor. I do enjoy trying out difference picks. I played guitar for many years before discovering the joy of the mandolin and oddly enough, never got into the obsession of picks until I switched over. I love Red Bears material and they are the only easy source for me of the classical style plectrums. I would probably ask for one a bit thinner however. I have gotten used to the large triangular shape over the guitar shape, but can't help but feel I'm missing out on something pick-wise. I am hoping for a bit more brightness and more control over my tremolo, hence my continuing search.

Perhaps I should just try both styles, I suppose I will eventually anyhow. Is there some place on the web where I might find more information about the two techniques and how to do them appropriately?

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## vkioulaphides

For some instructive information on the Roman/Ranieri pick, you can start here: 



The Neapolitan pick is amply enough represented, so you should have absolutely no difficulty finding sources, outlets, references, etc.

Good luck!

Victor

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## Simen Kjaersdalen

I just wish to mention another "school": Fingers. I belong to that.  :Smile:

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## Jim Garber

Wise advice above. be aware that there are few trends in classical but  many variants and schools of thought, esp when it comes to picks. Despite the fact that Red Bear makes one -- and I think certain folks on this section of the forums might have influenced their making -- we players of the Roman style plectra (Victor and I, for instance) are in a real minority. We classical players are in a minority anyway, but among the more prominent players only a few in Europe actually use that style of pick, notable Ralf Leenen and his group and Alex Timmerman and the member of his group Het Consort. I don't know who uses the Neapolitan style off hand but there are quite a few players who use other kinds of pick. German style players use the small jazz-shaped softer plastic picks to go with the mellow sound of their Thomastik-strung bowlbacks. I know that Carlo Aonzo uses a small jazz pick -- at one time the one one made by John Pearse's company. 

I think whatever you use depends on who you are instructed by and what works for you. Some of it depends on the type of music you play and the type of instrument you play it on.

I have a bucket of picks and I switch off depending on what music I play. I do own a Red bear Roman pick but I don;t use it much. I either use one I made myself from ultem material or one a few organic material ones. I like the sound and feel of them in general.

As they say YMMV. Try lots of picks and you don't even have to stick with one or the other.

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## vkioulaphides

> I either use one I made myself from ultem material... I like the sound and feel of them in general.


All too modestly, James veils the fact that his home-made Ultem picks are actually very, VERY good: they _sound_ good, they _feel_ good— AND keep the endangered tortoise population intact ;-) The larger point is that, given adequate material, information, and of course patience and skill, you can make your own. 

I also do not wish to bad-mouth Red Bear, which seems to be a reputable and responsive company; what I know is second-hand, and the complaint I have heard may in fact apply only to picks they made earlier on, i.e. before they were steered in the right direction by various mandolinists. So I would not cross them off your shopping list, but perhaps (IF you choose to patronize them— I am no spokesman for the company) you should opt for the more, ah... ~slender~ models on their catalogue.

---

Jim is also correct in brining the parameter of _rigidity_ into the conversation: the players of the so called New German School use picks that are hardly extraordinary in their _shape_, yet truly, characteristically, deliberately extraordinary in their Gummi-Bear, rubbery _softness_. So you should not only experiment with various different _shapes_, but also degrees of hardness— to say nothing of degrees of _sharpness_, i.e. beveling acuity.

Fun! :-)

Cheers,

Victor

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## bratsche

I've recently made myself a Roman style pick that I like.  I had made a couple in the past (for other people) that I was unimpressed with, and which caused me to write them off,  but I learned that was because they were -for me- too thin.  Still, I had seen Ralf's video on how to play with one, and thought it looked fairly intuitive.  Well, a thicker one worked a whole lot better, and I can play with it much more easily than with a shorter narrow-pointy pick (like a Pettine style).  It is of 2.4mm thick ivory,  but the bevels are very smooth and gradual and about 3/16" wide all around, so the edges are much more delicate than you'd think.  Bear in mind that in general compared with classical players, I like my picks thicker and more rigid than many people do, and I play most often on flatback mandolas. But it has been a very intriguing experience.  I find the pick surprisingly easy to control and play with precision, especially on string crossings.  I don't use it all the time, by any means, but it's nice to have an additional tool to experiment with that works for me.  

bratsche

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## vkioulaphides

In fact, I have bratsche to thank for her erstwhile simile of the pick as a "mini-bow". Somehow, that made ALL the sense in the world to me, especially as I tried to figure out what to do with the longer, Roman pick. But, as above, YMMV.

Cheers, 

Victor

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## bratsche

Hmmm...  yes, I remember saying that, Victor...  for me, it mainly applied when I used my infamous 3-finger hold with the middle finger across from the thumb, which I've since abandoned on regular style picks. It was a major re-training to achieve any degree of nimbleness and accuracy using just the index finger and thumb, but now that's pretty much all I use, as I find that it is better for my endurance.   Odd, but with a two-finger hold, I don't think I'd ever have come up with the "mini-bow" analogy at all.

Analysis time again... okay, with the Roman style pick, I find my middle finger only occasionally plays a supportive role (for me), underneath the pick, but not always.  It's still more of a role than it usually has anymore with the triangle picks I use otherwise.  But still not "bow-like" enough for me to make that connection there, either.  

Just curious, now, do you play the bass with a French or a German bow, Victor?

bratsche

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## Bryon Winger

Thanks for the replies. I like the idea of a pick being more bow-like, are either of the two classical styles generally more expressive than the other? I would imagine it depends more on how one uses it and their experience.

I have asked Alison Stephens and Avi Avital about their pick choices and was surprised to hear of their using a more traditional pick. Well, Miss Stephens sounded like she's gone back and forth quite a bit, but she more or less like the smaller shaped picks. Avi mentioned that he preferred a thinner Dunlop. I am led to believe that the longer picks tend to allow more tonal variations and a faster and more controlled tremolo, but is this gospel or just tradition? Is the Pettine shape inherently any less dynamic than the Reineri shape? I seem to come across more information on the Reineri style on the internet, but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places!

I am hoping to try making another Roman pick soon, my last one isn't very symmetrical and the edges definitely need more buffing and smoothing. The material I have is also about 3.1 mm thick, so I'll have to figure out how to thin that down some as well. I sincerely appreciate the replies so far.

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## Jim Garber

Byron: what material are you using for your pick?

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## Bryon Winger

I'm not really sure on the material. It was something I picked up from work - it was used for some signs that hung from the ceiling in the store. There was an extra panel that had sat unused for years that I was able to salvage. It's pretty hard, it takes a lot of sanding to remove a little. I did the basic shape on a bandsaw and took an orbital sander to the edges. I need to see if my wife has any nail files lying around! I made another one sometime last year, but the plastic was so soft I could see it fall away while I was playing. I have a good bit of this new stuff, maybe a 6" x 24" panel or so. It's white, so nothing pretty or fancy here. It has a very dull sound when dropped, not the nice click of the better materials, but it might be nice for experimenting.

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## vkioulaphides

By way of two-in-one replies:

Bratsche, I play the so-called "German" bow, as my bass lineage hails from (mostly) German-speaking Central Europe, namely: Vaclav Hause (b. 1764) — Josef Hrabe (of Etudes fame, at least among bass players)— Franz Simandl (the author of the Method that was mother's milk to me, and to thousands of others)— Ludwig Emanuel Manoly — Hermann Reinshagen (at Juilliard, in New York) — Frederick Zimmermann — David Walter — Me ;-)

Obviously, the "ethnic" designation is misleading, as many of those luminaries of yesteryear were Czechs, Bohemians, Hungarians, etc. The German-vs-French bow polemic has also done much, IMHO, to hamper _real_, substantive advances in technique. In fact, I'd much rather have the two bows renamed "Dragonetti bow" (under-hand, gamba-like, i.e. "German") and "Bottesini bow" (above-hand, cello-like, i.e. "French").

Without ANY claim of "superiority", however, it is simply an anatomical fact that the middle- and ring-fingers play a more active role on "German" bow, since the stick is held up by the index and middle fingers, while the "tilt" of the bow is steered by the ring-finger; on "French" bow, those fingers are crucial to the _balance_ of the bow, but (to my knowledge and understanding) less "active" in the motions of the the bow, in the "steering" of the bow from frog to tip. 

---

No, Bryon, there is absolutely no reason to believe that either pick is more "expressive"; that is an _artistic_ quality, not a mechanical one. Ditto, on bows. My $0.02 worth is: do what works best for you; master the mechanics; sing your heart out! ;-)

Cheers,

Victor

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## Simen Kjaersdalen

This summer I found a feather when I was in the mountains here in Norway, probably from a big majestic bird called "Lom". I tried it as a plectrum (of course) and actually it worked really well on my gut-strung mandolin. Really good balance, strong and clear sound... Recommended!

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## K. WONG

Dear Simen
I have a big feather that I found on a lake after a storm, it came from a swan.
I would like to use it on my Nylgut strung mandolino, but I suppose that I have to have it shaped and I do not know how. Would you show me a photo of the point of the feather that you have mentioned, so that I can use it on my mandolino?
Thanks
Kasper

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## Simen Kjaersdalen

Well, of course I was not the one to invent the feather-plectrum. The eagle feather is the traditional choice for the Oud, and I'm sure my feather would feel quite ashamed next to the real feather-plectrums of the oud-masters. But here are some pictures that you can use:

http://zalzalya.multiply.com/photos/album/15/

And then everyone could learn something from this man. Keep listening, and you will at the end hear a famous tune done in a very special way:



According to the info I found, he uses an eagle-plectrum. But I think those are not legal for ordinary players. But hommade swan and "lom" plectrums sure must be ok!  :Wink:

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## billkilpatrick

an oud pick (risha) works for me - you can make a lovely syncopated, "teeter-totter" like sound with it:

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## Simen Kjaersdalen

This is such great playing! I never get tired of listening to this one.

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## Margriet

> I am curious about the difference in technique between the two schools and am not sure which I should try first.
> 
> I have also recently tried my hand at making a Roman plectrum, but I can't say that I understand how to properly use it. So far I don't prefer it - of course, I'm also second guessing whether or not I have it beveled enough or properly, if I'm holding it correctly etc.


I also made myself Roman plectra from different material: celluloid, plastic, old tortoise shell, horn. Each material has its own character. Besides the properties of material (f.i. elasticity, hardness) the shape makes difference in sound as well: if the points are sharp, how thick they are, how they are going from thick to thin etc. Mostly I made Ranieri models. Recently I made also a smaller, Roman model, as taken for Embergher mandolins in the past. 

I can compare it with bowed playing: like it is very important how the bow is made: material, shape, it is also with the plectrum: you hear difference in sound. And the way you hold it and use it, means maybe even more.

Playing a Roman plectrum gives me lots of things to discover. 
The long shape, the part of the plectrum that sticks above your hand, moves and reacts on the part that touches the strings. The way of holding it - lose or strongly, means difference in sound. 
This way you are able to choose and being conscious what sound you want and what you can do in order to get this sound. The fingers of the right hand, that do not hold the plectrum, have their function in hanging and having weight. It is rather difficult to explain this in English for me, I hope you understand what I mean. I study this by trying and to look very well at people who use this technique. These are teachers and examples for me and I am so lucky to live in the same country. Alex talks from this technique from time to time her on cafe. Maybe looking to videos is also helpful for you. Here are some examples where you can see the technique well.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JUSrxvg6cAhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zVqVuZeS20

Of course is experimenting, trying very important. It is already nice to discover that there is so much possible and to refine and expand technique and get better result.

Margriet

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## Bryon Winger

Well, I was able to better refine the most recent Roman pick of mine. I brought the thickness down to about 2.4 mm and spent much more time beveling the edge to what seemed more appropriate. It certainly sounds better with a smoother edge, but I imagined it would. I'm not sure I'll end up using it a whole lot though, I still seem to prefer the tone I get better with my Red Bear large triangle. The tone with this Roman pick is thinner without adding too much more treble, whereas the Red Bear is has a very full tone, not overly warm and not lacking in brightness (although I could use a little more). Its not dark like some of the cheaper versions that I've tried. I don't know if its more in the material or the bevel, but the Red Bear is very smooth and I mostly like the tone as is.

I may still go with a Pettine style and see if the narrower tip is more to my liking. I'm beginning to think that I *want* to like a Roman pick for some reason. I will continue to try the pick I made and see if I begin to like it more as I become comfortable with it. I am pretty certain that a different material (and thinner) would be more to my liking versus what I've made so far. On the other hand, it might just not be the plectrum shape for me either. Time will tell.

Oh and thanks for the links and videos, I'll be sure to check them out when I get the chance. And Margriet, I understood your English just fine!

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## Jim Garber

I am not expert on the Roman style, but I know someone who is. I think that the key is the bevel *and* the quality of the point. I showed him one of mine and he said that one point was quite nice whereas the other was not there. This is a much thinner lone that yours however by at least half. I tried making a thicker plectrum from this same Ultem plastic but with much less success. 

There is no real reason to *have to* like the Roman pick -- it is only as good as the music can make from it. As noted, there are plenty of players who do not use that style of pick and who are excellent players.

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## Margriet

> I'm beginning to think that I *want* to like a Roman pick for some reason. I will continue to try the pick I made and see if I begin to like it more as I become comfortable with it. I am pretty certain that a different material (and thinner) would be more to my liking versus what I've made so far. On the other hand, it might just not be the plectrum shape for me either. Time will tell.


Bryon: you say: "time will tell." I would add: " experimenting and studying" and "trial and error".
There are so many factors that influence your tone, that it is a study to find out how you can get the sound and effects you like. Your ears know, certainly.....
I see you do not want to drop immediately a kind of plectrum before you take another, if you want to make a choice, you want to know the properties well and the possibilities it gives you. I am not sure that your Roman plectrum will sound more warm and full, when you make it of different material and make it thinner. My experience so far (but I am a beginner!) is that a too thin plectrum makes thinner sound. If I take a thicker plectrum, but in Roman style, it has a fuller tone and the lightness and brightness come with the moving. 
As I said before: there is a lot to discover. I want to know everything about, to be able to make good choices. So I am experimenting and studying. And in order to NOT be the inventor of the wheel again and to make useless errors while trying, I profit of the experience and knowledge of others.
Wish you good search ! The process itself is interesting and worth.

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## Bryon Winger

Oh I don't think I'm really set on NEEDING to like the Roman pick, I think I just set my expectations higher than I should have. I think in my head I generally associate the larger thick triangles with bluegrass - nothing against the genre per se, but I usually don't think of it as extremely dynamic when compared to classical music. Hence my false reasoning that the longer twin tipped Roman pick surely must be inherently more dynamic and expressive than the bluegrass counterpart. I see that I'm probably very wrong here. I think that mental "image" of what works where is the basis of my confusion.

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## Margriet

> Hence my false reasoning that the longer twin tipped Roman pick surely must be inherently more dynamic and expressive than the bluegrass counterpart. I see that I'm probably very wrong here. I think that mental "image" of what works where is the basis of my confusion.


Maybe.....maybe you are not wrong. The more reason to try and examine. As said before: there is not only the thickness that matters: also the shape, the size, the kind of material, the technique of playing. I hope, there are more people coming to share their experiences. Or people who know threads on cafe about this item that are still to be seen. Sometimes I tried to enter an old thread and I did not manage, because it was too old and "forbidden area".
I have no experience with bluegrass picks.

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## bratsche

Wow... 
three months since my last post here.  Just had to jump in again to say *the Roman plectrum rules!*
I definitely understand why so many classical players exclusively use this "funny" shape.  After more than a decade of experimentation, and settling for most of that time on various large triangles as my favorites, I have found that this elongated Roman pick leaves the triangles in the dust for me, literally, in every aspect: tone control, articulateness, expression, clarity, volume, accuracy of intricate passagework - You name it.  I tried going back to the triangle for several days, and was just getting used to it again... then I picked up the Roman one, and it blew everything I had just done right out of the water.   It was like coming home again!

I am so impressed!  I wish I had tried this many years earlier.  Live and learn, they say.   :Laughing: 

bratsche

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## Jim Garber

> I definitely understand why so many classical players exclusively use this "funny" shape.


Hmmmm... I did not know that was the case. I agree with you that it is a great invention but even among the classical players few use them with the exception of the disciples and admirers of Silvio Ranieri. I don't even know how many Roman players use that sort of pick.

Just curious... where did you get yours or did you make it yourself?

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## vkioulaphides

We may be _few_, Jim, but we are _proud_.  :Wink: 

Seriously, now, while you (Jim) are right as regards the "market-share" of Roman picks too dumb a pun, even for me, to speak of "slim pickings" I must say that I TOTALLY share bratsche's "revelation", simply by having had _exactly_ the same personal/musical experience as she did. 

This, of course, is not any mark of purported "superiority", but a shared revelation strikingly by some of us _bowed_-string players that the Roman/Ranieri pick is indeed a Most Wonderful Thing.  :Smile: 

Speaking of which... time to play some. Later...  :Mandosmiley: 

Cheers,

Victor

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## Margriet

me too, I agree with bratsche - and with Victor. And I am a bowed-string player as well. I had the same with this plectrum as with the bow: so many possibilities !

Never too late, bratsche, we enjoy!

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## bratsche

*Jim*, I made it myself (see post #8, this thread, for the details).  

Maybe I overstated "so many"... but I was thinking of our friends abroad, with all their spectacular talent, particularly in the Netherlands!

Now, I wonder how rare will be the sub-species of *flatback mandola Roman plectrum players*??   :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing: 

*Victor*, I truly hope one day to play one of your excellent compositions.  I have downloaded many of them, in hopes.  They are still rather demanding for me to proper justice.   But, I can aspire...  :Grin: 

bratsche

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## Glassweb

hey guys... excuse my ignorance, but what's a Roman pick look like? Thanks!

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## Jim Garber

Here are a few of mine of various material.

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## Richard Walz

I wrote an article about plectrum some time ago (must be available on the net somewhere). As for a good choice of pick for the classical mandolin, there are 2 directions to go (in my opinion), either with the Roman style and this will require quite a radical change in plectrum technique or with the more traditional or common 'teardrop form' that was the choice of most of the mandolin virtuosos of the early part of the 20th century. You get an approximate shape and thickness with the small Gibson or Fender teardrop (0,70mm) and, if tortoiseshell is off limits, than the best material is celluloid. I found the heartshape celluloid (and tshell) picks made in Japan to be ideal though my personal choice has always been the Pettine style pick. With the pick comes the choice of strings and instrument. I don't like the nylon or equivalent picks, nor the rubber style used in Germany. Of course, they make a nice warm (helas dull) sound but they possibilities of tonal expression become severely limited with this type of pick.

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## vkioulaphides

... and here, of course, you get an illustrious "exception-to-the-exception", our own Maestro Richard Walz: also a fine violinist, and yet quite non-Roman, pick-wise, but of Pettine persuasion— nice picks, those!

 So it is wise to steer clear of generalizations, as they are generally off the mark— or at least allow for SO many exceptions that their generality is left rather shaky.  :Laughing: 

I just try to _play_ (and clearly need all the help I can get  :Wink:  ). I also come from the MOST acrimonious background of "French" vs "German" (bass)-bows, an argument that is inane beyond words...

Bratsche, I am ENORMOUSLY honored that a colleague like yourself is trying her hand at my mandolin solo works. I suspect, however, that you are being somewhat too modest: as a professional-grade violist, you must certainly be able to play some of those works with no trouble at all— even on the larger scale of the mandola. For one, immediate example, my Suite for Ali was written for her to play on her "Beast", her Pecoraro _octave_-mandolin; all the passagework is laid out on the fingerboard with _that_, significantly larger scale-length in mind. So you should have absolutely no problem with it. (Needless to say, you can play it sounding a fifth lower, fingered as on a mandolin— that is, for example, the way Alex plays the Sarabande and the Gigue on the _mandoloncello_, also a CGDA-tuned instrument).

Cheers,

Victor

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## antekboodzik

Hello,

Could You tell me if You know a good source of celluloid sheets suitable for making roman picks in Europe? I have been lookng for that with no success, except some rather thin (0.7-0.8mm) pickguards, or laminated ones for electric guitars. 
Are there laws in UE that suspend trading the celluloid?

Here are some of picks I made myself, two on top from garbaged CDs, the lower one from some plastic coverage of blank cd cake box. They are ok, but somehow undurable, too thin (I think), and unpractical - clear plastic is hardly seen and easy to lose.



Cheers, Antek.

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## timthebear

I note with pleasure this discussion since I have tried making picks from a couple of different materials. My wife used to work as a teacher for a guy who moved pianos and restored them. One time I must have expressed an interest in the ivory that naturally comes from such an enterprise in terms of key tops. I have made at least one ivory pick before and didn't like it because it was too big, broad, and inflexible. But along with all the ivory in that bag was some plastic, which I had pretty much regarded as being useless. I tried a few picks from this material, liking best the broadest and stiffest (I don't care for excessive pinginess in mandolin tone, which for me comes with a tip that is pretty small and snappy). Being a bassoonist, I used my reed knife (no, _not_ the tip knife) to help with the shaping and carving, liking best the ones with the most regular and limited taper (like keeping a "heart" in the reed). Some piano keys are perhaps old enough to be celluloid; I don't know. The material I have is a relatively creamy composition that is pretty tough, but not at all brittle. I found the nylon picks I had to make a pretty raggedy-feeling, if not sounding, attack. I will try making a roman pick; I can see how the length would allow for some flexibility of response, kind of like a bow. I am curious to see what one might look like in cross section. 
tgb

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## Schlegel

The cross-section is much like the outline- a flatish pointy oval

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## JeffD

I have wrestled with the Red Bear Roman, and just can't seem to get the hang of it. I would love to see a slow motion video of one of you playing with it. I am especially having trouble with tremolo, and string crossings. It just feels so awkward and clunky. And I have given it more than the old college try.

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## Jim Garber

Jeff: come on down to southern NY state sometime and I can show you what I do. Of course, there is no guarantee that it is correct but it seems to work okay and sound does come out the of the mandolin.

For the real expert, check out Ralf Leenen's video.

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## Richard Walz

Great material for making picks and probably the right gauge or thickness for the Ranieri/Roman style pick are old imitation piano ivory. In otherwords the keytops made from celluloid 'ivory' piano keytops.

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## brunello97

> ........ but it seems to work okay and sound does come out the of the mandolin.


 :Smile: 

Mick

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## Ed Goist

I've been following this discussion with much interest.

I currently use (and very much like) a pick that is pointed, fairly narrow (side to side), and fairly thick (1.2mm). My current pick of choice is this relatively small teardrop shaped pick:




However, I'm thinking that the longer Roman plectrum would be worth a try. I like the idea of a pick that is narrow, larger (long), and pointed all at the same time.

Unfortunately, I am having a hard time finding a relatively inexpensive commercial example of one. I'd love to give one of these a try, but can't see spending $30 without knowing I'll use it.

Does anyone have any suggestions where I should look?

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## Jim Garber

There are few commercial examples available. The best ones (aside from excellent ones that were given to me by friends who play in this style) so far were ones I made myself out of a sheet of ultem plastic (third example pictured in post #32 above).

BTW I used this pattern from Ralf Leenen.

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## Margriet

> However, I'm thinking that the longer Roman plectrum would be worth a try. I like the idea of a pick that is narrow, larger (long), and pointed all at the same time.
> 
> Unfortunately, I am having a hard time finding a relatively inexpensive commercial example of one. I'd love to give one of these a try, but can't see spending $30 without knowing I'll use it.
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions where I should look?



Ed, why not trying to make yourself ? On the website of Alex: www.embergher.com there is explained how to make them. We did. We experimented first with plastic, with cowhorn. Later I found old celluloid and tortoise shell, those give better results. Once you know that you like it, you can make or buy better ones. Every material has it's own character. Trying and experimenting learns you the effects of kind of material, different shape, thickness, the sharpness of the point. If you make it yourself, it is also up to you to change it, to file again, to polish.... After this you will better know what you are searching for. 
It is something I like, maybe you as well. 

Margriet

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## vkioulaphides

I can attest as eyewitness that Margriet made one such pick _in my presence_, over a cup of coffee and a friendly chat at my home last week.  :Grin:  So she certainly _means_ what she _says_. Sure, why not experiment? There are SO many variables there, not least of all the _strings_, to say nothing of the mandolin _itself_. Try, listen, try harder/better next time...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Ed Goist

Jim; thanks for the "four circle" pattern. That's something that I think even I can do!
Margriet and Victor, thanks for the replies.
Any suggestions on where I can find a sheet of suitable raw materials?

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## Jim Garber

I got 2 sheets (.03 and .06) of Ultem at smallparts.com. You can make quite a few picks from that. it is pretty tough material. The thinner stuff you can cut with a sharp scissors. The thicker I used a tin snips. I rough shaped and bevelled with a Dremel tool then used finer and finer nail polishers to smooth the edges out.

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## Margriet

:Smile:  :Smile: 


> the "four circle" pattern.


that is a good start, indeed.




> Any suggestions on where I can find a sheet of suitable raw materials?


Just to try and without spending money, you can take something old, that you have or find in your neighborhood. We made plectra f.i. from an old printer, from a comb. We experienced in making and learned of the kind of material ( mostly too soft = rapidly using and not clear sound). Meanwhile looking for real celluloid, by fleamarkets/ antique shops/advertisements. ( once you are infected  :Laughing: .

Another option: I can make you one of celluloid and send. If you do not like, send it back.
Margriet

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## antekboodzik

Fast picks:



The picture is slef-explanatory (I hope). After cutting, the edges need to be done  - at least with nail-care-polish file.
These picks are rather thin, I think (as for mandolin).

 

But if you want the tickness to be decreasing gradually, it will require much more work.



Anyway, still no celluloid. Some old accordions have the "speaker" covered with celluloid frame. But it is as hard to find as an old piano keyboard....

Margriet: Thanks a lot for your effort  :Smile:  but for a now, I would try more for myslef. If everything let down, I would ask you.

----------


## timthebear

I found that a wet emery finishing sponge with a variety of surfaces was useful to take down and then polish (plastic) surfaces after getting a general shape (not a roman shape yet) roughed in. It does have the advantage of being more "circular" in its abrasion, rather than emery paper, which would tend toward a more flat take off; it's also what I had on hand. It might be interesting to try also for final finishing what reed players call _dutch rush_ - that is, horsetail (equisetum), which has a high silica content but is pretty gentle in its action. I didn't find a dremel terribly useful except for some pretty brutal removal (plastic burns), but I don't have fine skill with it. it was ok for polishing, which would probably be better with some very fine abrasive like the sort of liquid abrasive you use on a car polisher.   
tgb

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## Ed Goist

I've decided making a Roman Plectrum for myself is a little too daunting of a task. (This kind of thing doesn't fit nicely into my skill set  :Smile:  ).
Hence, I've decided to go about this a little differently. 
Hoping someone can help me out.

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## antekboodzik

My trouble is where to get apropriate material for roman plectrums, not how to make them or polish.

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## Jim Garber

anteboodzik... I find the Ultem plastic excellent material but so far I have been able to shape the thinner material down but have a hard time working the thicker one (about 1.5mm). I can rough shape3 using my Dremel tool but have to find the right machinery or abrasives to polish it and shape it.

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## bratsche

I would like to start experimenting with different materials, too.  They are unfortunately hard to come by, though, especially since 1.5mm is a thickness I consider ultra-thin for my Roman plectra (any thinner than that I've found useless to me) and I prefer it to be over 2mm, ideally around 2.4mm, because I like to grade the bevel very very gradually so it (the bevel) is at least 1/4" -3/8" wide and so smooth as to have no visible "seam".  I form my bevel with sandpaper (by rubbing the plectrum on the sandpaper, not the sandpaper on the plectrum!) and then polish it with MicroMesh 1500 grit all the way down to 8000.

bratsche

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## Jim Garber

bratsche, I would be interested in what materials you have used? 

The Ultem I have used comes in .09"/2.28mm 12x12" for $41.67. You should get plenty of picks out of that sheet. However, this stuff is super tough and prob would need to be rough cut with a bandsaw and may take a fair amount of time and effort to get that bevel right. 

I have a pro-made plectrum from Europe but I would be surprised if it is much more than 1.5mm at the thickest. I will try to measure it with a micrometer sometime.

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## bratsche

I've only used an antique dental material so far, Jim.

Is the ultem material flexible or stiff?  I am hesitant to purchase so much.  I'd like to ideally find a small amount of whatever stuff, enough to make one or two picks, to see if I like the material.

I wonder what the dark materials in the picture by Ralf that Ed used in his want ad are.  The picks are lovely looking!  The reflections on the one at the far left show the kind of seamless thickness gradation I like to aim for.  (I don't like quite as sharp a point as that, though!)

bratsche

----------


## Jim Garber

> I wonder what the dark materials in the picture by Ralf that Ed used in his want ad are.  The picks are lovely looking!  The reflections on the one at the far left show the kind of seamless thickness gradation I like to aim for.  (I don't like quite as sharp a point as that, though!)


This is the "material that cannot be named". I learned my lesson from a prior thread.  I will PM you.

----------


## bratsche

Oh, bummer.  Say no more!  Mine can barely be named around here either. Guess I should edit my post so this thread isn't threatened.   :Disbelief: 

bratsche

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## antekboodzik

> This is the "material that cannot be named". I learned my lesson from a prior thread.  I will PM you.


Not a celluloid? Why it is so strange around?

----------


## antekboodzik

And finally....

Smell of a camphor !!! (a smell of success  :Smile:  )

In desperation, I have "starighten" a celluloid thumb pick, screwing it between two pieces of dry plywood, and boiling it in water for a some time.



It makes quite interesting shape:



I must admit, that this is my best pick so far. Celluloid is much more easy to cut (with scissors) and shape than a CD-plastic, and produces a sweet, light tone, without ringing and popping on the string. But it is still quite thin (not more than 1,2mm). 

And still to idea how to get just one thicker celluloid sheet... It is a secret, where do they have it, or what?

----------


## bratsche

Hi Antek - That was certainly a clever idea!  I don't know about celluloid in Europe, but perhaps you might be interested in *this source* in America I found online.  The celluloid sheets they have are a little over 3mm thick, but they look attractive, and I might try one myself some day. 

bratsche

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## antekboodzik

Bratsche, thanks a lot, but actually I emailed them and they didn't reply me... Don't know, it is suspended to send the celluloid, as it is highly flammamble? Please, let me know if you would be purchasing it  :Smile:

----------


## Margriet

Antek:



> Smell of a camphor !!! (a smell of success  )


Yes! the smell of camphor !
This is one of the characteristics that you recognize at celluloid, when you work on it.




> I must admit, that this is my best pick so far. Celluloid is much more easy to cut (with scissors) and shape than a CD-plastic. But it is still quite thin (not more than 1,2mm).


I cut it with a small hacksaw or fretsaw and file with keyfiles in the right shape( I hope all these translations of technical things do work....) I think the material I actually have, is too thick for scissors. I welcome the suggestion, given before, of nailfiles ! 
Timthebear:
The finishing I do with sandpaper (very fine) and at the final end, olive oil and polish, called in German "Bimmstein", "Tripel" or "Wiener Kalk". It is actually VERY fine powder. I would like to try your suggestions as well: 


> It might be interesting to try also for final finishing what reed players call dutch rush - that is, horsetail (equisetum), which has a high silica content but is pretty gentle in its action.


 


> some very fine abrasive like the sort of liquid abrasive you use on a car polisher.


Maybe also the (cheap) stuff to clean, f.i. in the kitchen, will work as well, I do not know yet.




> And still to idea how to get just one thicker celluloid sheet... It is a secret, where do they have it, or what?


Bratsche: what a great found! So far I used old celluloid and sometimes I needed to sacrifice a nice made thing. I see now, that Antek had problems with ordering. Hope it turns out well.
There are also suggestions of Jim "ultem" and Richard "celluloid ivory tops of piano keys". Are that tops of the keys thick enough ?




> In desperation, I have "starighten" a celluloid thumb pick, screwing it between two pieces of dry plywood, and boiling it in water for a some time.


Very happy to know that this is working. I am wondering how recycable celluloid is. This is something for the chemists among us. Is it and end-product ? Like you cannot turn the process the other way round with 2-components glue? Or is there a way to melt it, solve it, glue too thin material to each other like multiplex? If so, what kind of glue will be appropriate? 




> and produces a sweet, light tone, without ringing and popping on the string


Yes, that is also my experience. My teacher (Sebastiaan de Grebber) likes it a lot.

Tim: 


> I can see how the length would allow for some flexibility of response, kind of like a bow. I am curious to see what one might look like in cross section.


I do not exactly know what you are meaning ( it is because of the language, sorry).
For sure you have flexibility because of the length. The piece that comes above your hand is "flippering", while your last three fingers are "hanging", in e reaxed way, as a contra-weight. This is a matter of right - hand technique, which Alex Timmerman can explain. He did it, in the past, but the thread has come unreachable.  Maybe he will chime in, once he has time. Sofar we can have a look at the hands of players, on video. And trying, practicing.

Margriet

----------


## bratsche

Well, you'll be happy to know that I gave in to temptation, and ordered *a small slab* of the pretty celluloid that looks like that-material-which-shall-not-be-named.  When I figured out that I should be able to get 10 or more picks out of it, I was sold.  At 3mm+, I strongly doubt that scissors will cut it.  LOL!  And if it's flammable, I might want to avoid high speed tools as well.  Time for the coping saw, methinks.  

This should be interesting... I love to experiment!  :Grin: 

bratsche

----------


## Margriet

> This should be interesting... I love to experiment! 
> 
> bratsche


Me too! Good that you could order. I will have a try as well. This is much better than putting the saw in nice vintage/antique things.

Today I tried on a small piece of thick celluloid, to make it thinner and flatter and warmed it into boiling water......it changed of color ànd of character of material. No success...... I don't know how Antek did succeed.

Bratsche, I would take a saw and files on the material that has that thickness as you describe. There is risk that the material breaks, with scissors, it is too thick. Success, with making this small surfboard! I am curious to your experiences.

Margriet

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## bratsche

> Success, with making this small surfboard!
> margriet


*"Small surfboard"*, indeed! LOL! 
  :Laughing: 

bratsche

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## vkioulaphides

Tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny little surfers in Malibu LOVE these!  :Laughing: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## antekboodzik

Margriet: Celluloid doesn't became liquid in temperature, it just get softer and can be bend etc. I succeded, as I have softened (in just warm water) and bent upwards a thumbpick to be at least straight enought to put it between two scraps of plywood. Then, screwed up tightly with clamps, it was boiled for some time, just to start the wood to soak and expand, so it made a pretty high pressure over my celluloid piece. Then, I have cooled it rapidly in cold water, to save new shape... It is written correctly?  :Smile: 

Also, you can just dry a nitrocellulose laquer finish, pourng it into a flat surface, about 150-200% of final thickness... teflon frying pan would be perfect just to not to get the finish to stay on it  :Smile:  I wonder if it is even possible. Nitrocelluloses can be made at home too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDmKStZbbOg 
Easy, isn't it?

Back to reality, let us know if you purchase any celluloid shets  :Smile: 

best regards, Antek.

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## Margriet

Hi Antek,

thanks for your explanation and link. I enjoyed the video (and Metallica  :Cool: ).

I think I boiled my piece of celluloid to long and that it was too thick to bent or flatten slightly.

On the video they recycle ping pong balls. What gives me the hope that I will be able to recycle small pieces of celluloid ( with tortoise shell pattern), that I gathered, like teeth of a comb and the small pieces that rest if you saw a plectrum. It is wothto try.

I am feeling like we are alchemists  :Laughing: 

We will keep in touch, I like this thread.

Margriet

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## bratsche

Another possible celluloid source, lifted from a current thread on pickguard material:

http://www.axinc.net/category_s/47.htm

bratsche

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## Jim Garber

Main problem is that Axion adds $25 haz/mat shipping surcharge. I did not see that on the Texas Knife site tho it may appear when you finalize the order.

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## bratsche

Whoa!  I didn't see that, sorry!   Texas Knife has shipped my order already (for $6.35) and there was nothing like that added.  Whew!

bratsche

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## billkilpatrick

> And finally....
> 
> Smell of a camphor !!! (a smell of success  )
> 
> In desperation, I have "starighten" a celluloid thumb pick, screwing it between two pieces of dry plywood, and boiling it in water for a some time.
> 
> 
> 
> It makes quite interesting shape:
> ...


brill' idea!

----------


## bratsche

I am pleased with the product and service offered by Texas Knife.  It arrived in record time.  Here is my first attempt at a celluloid Roman pick.  I like it!  It produces a good full sound on my mandola, even as pointy as it is (I decided not to round it too much at first, in order to test it this way), and the material feels good in my hand and is attractive to look at, too.

For the record, I don't know what all the hubbub about flammability was about.  There was no way I was cutting this material to shape with a saw by hand, I knew that in the first instant I tried it!  So I went outside and gingerly touched the diamond wheel of my Dremel to it, expecting it to burst into flames at any moment, but it did not, and was actually quite pleasant to work with.  

Surf's up!   :Laughing: 

bratsche

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## Jim Garber

Nice work. Bratsche! Margriet gave me a nice piece of celluloid so when the weather gets nice -- I like to work outside with this stuff -- I will try a few picks as well.

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## Margriet

Nice, Bratsche !
Very good to know, that the Texas knife celluloid works well. It is such good knews, to know that it is still available and for a reasonable price.

About flammability: I always work on my lap, just where I am, do not go outside specifically for it. I think it will burn, when it gets fire. Pingpong balls are made of celluloid as well and they burn in a moment to nothing, when we experimented in childhood. Maybe because of that story it has it's name of being flammable. But you can smell the camphor, isn't it ? 
How do you like the thickness? And what did you do for polishing?

I like the shape of your plectrum. What do you mean with "I decided not to round it too much at first" ? It seems to be nice. If I see it well, the two points have a bit difference in being round/pointy. My last one by coincidence as well. By this you can try out what you like, it gives a bit different sound.

Jim, my piece is good enough, maybe the piece of Bratsche is a bit thicker and even better. 

Margriet

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## billkilpatrick

> Surf's up!  bratsche


very pretty - complimenti - but that photo does, indeed, look like the hand of big kahuna bequeathing the first surfboard to hawaii.

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## Jim Garber

> Jim, my piece is good enough, maybe the piece of Bratsche is a bit thicker and even better.


The one I got from you (thanks so much, again!) is about 2mm whereas the Bratsche/Texas Knife piece is 3mm/1.8". I think the ideal is to have that center of the pick pretty thick and taper to the sides. I will experiment with the euro-celluloid (from Margriet) then might order a piece of the thicker piece. In the meantime I also have a piece of old piano keyboard top but that is thinner than both so may not be as good.

----------


## bratsche

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!  

Margriet, I like the thickness just fine.  I like thick picks, but Jim has it exactly right - I have very strongly tapered it to the sides.  So it does not play like you think a 3.2mm pick would!  I polished it as I do generally, using finer and finer sandpaper followed by MicroMesh in varying grades, all the way down to 8000 or 12000 grit.   A long and tedious process, but it ends up very smooth and glassy.  Now, I thought I knew what to expect camphor to smell like, but I must have had it confused with something else.  But it does have a very distinctive odor!




> What do you mean with "I decided not to round it too much at first" ? It seems to be nice. If I see it well, the two points have a bit difference in being round/pointy. My last one by coincidence as well. By this you can try out what you like, it gives a bit different sound.
> Margriet


Before I ever tried playing with a Roman shaped plectrum, I had used triangular picks that were more rounded on the points.  I never really liked picks that were super-pointy, because I seemed to always hear more playing noise with them.  Thus when I first made my own elongated, Roman-shaped picks, I would slightly round the points of them.  With this new celluloid one, I have not done so because I wanted to try it in all of its pointy glory first.  I may eventually make one of the points rounder, or else just make another plectrum with rounded points, to compare them. (I also wonder how long it takes a pointy point in this material to wear down naturally by abrasion to become more rounded.)

Next experiment will be with the Ultem material which Jim so kindly sent me, and which is less than half as thick as the celluloid.

Here is something interesting I read on the Ultem page Jim linked to up-topic.  About the material, it says:

_"It is soluble in partially halogenated solvents but resistant to alcohols, acids and hydrocarbon solvents."_

I wonder if I  were to find a "partially halogenated solvent" (whatever that would be; I am not a chemist!) if I could use it to slightly melt and join two thicknesses of the Ultem together?  

If that is not feasible or possible, maybe one day I will spring for a sheet of the thicker Ultem.  Or maybe, if several of us were interested, we could split the order. (A square foot sure is a lot of pick material...)

bratsche

----------


## Jim Garber

I am curious how you like the Ultem material. A sheet of 12 X12 X 1/8" (3.2mm) would only be $41 plus shipping. Not so bad, really.

----------


## timthebear

[QUOTE=bratsche;918558]

I never really liked picks that were super-pointy, because I seemed to always hear more playing noise with them.  Thus when I first made my own elongated, Roman-shaped picks, I would slightly round the points of them.  With this new celluloid one, I have not done so because I wanted to try it in all of its pointy glory first.  I may eventually make one of the points rounder, or else just make another plectrum with rounded points, to compare them. 


I didn't either. I have finally made what looks to pretty much like the Roman plectra I've seen, from a recycled piano key top (celluloid, I think, from the smell) and have enjoyed its precision minus pick-related pinging. I thought perhaps that mine wasn't quite pointy enough; as a bassoonist, I remember being very concerned about the tip in reedmaking, and this is very similar in some ways. Anyway, being a 2 pointed critter, it turned out slightly broader on one end; I find that I like the finer point, but I can see that it is going to wear away relatively quickly and require fairly frequent adjustment - also like a reed, I'm chagrined to say. Making two ends with different playing characteristics seems pretty obvious to me, but I've no experience with this other than quite lately.
Does anyone have any experience in making a Roman type pick with ivory? I have scads of it, much more than celluloid. It would of course be much stiffer and would have a different response pattern. It might need to be too thin to be of much use in order for it to work satisfactorily. Any ideas or experiences?

regards from the coast,
tgb

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## Jim Garber

I also just bought a piece of piano key that the seller says is genuine pachyderm dental tissue. I know that bratsche makes regular picks from that material.

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## bratsche

Yes, I have made myself a few Roman ones, but not from piano key tops - those are rarely above 1.1mm thick, many are under 1mm.  Much too thin for my liking, especially for the Roman style.  At that length, they would flex - I want them to be stiff, whatever the composition material - just my preference.

Jim, regarding the Ultem (which I haven't had time to work with yet, I've been busy and a little under the weather), I wasn't saying that was a bad price for the thicker material, but truthfully, times are really tough (my season just ended until November, along with other things I won't bore you with) and since it would be much more pick material than I would ever use, I'd feel a lot better about going in with somebody (or somebodies) who had an interest, rather than buying the whole sheet myself.

bratsche

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## Jim Garber

bratsche: I was not quibbling with you on the price... in fact I would prob go in with you on a sheet and yes, you can get quite a few picks from that sheet.

I was talking with a friend who is setting up some sort of CNC machine and he was saying that he may be able to cut blanks out of that material on his machine. I have no heard back yet tho.

----------


## Margriet

I like as well the material to be stiff enough - so thick enough and the points not too pointy. And I think two different points are useful. I am also experimenting with a smaller shape, more narrow. 
The celluloid that I have, is from an antique small tray. As I said, it is good enough, but I think I prefer the Texas-knife-Bratsche material, with 3mm thickness. No need anymore to saw the old nice things.
About recycling of celluloid: I asked a chemist and he said it is a polymere. Melting is not possible, only maybe solving like the pingpongball in the video of Antek, but he thinks there will be also the rest of aceton, that is not ideal. When I asked about gluing thin pieces to each other, he answered that polymere is a kind of plastic, so that is difficult to glue that it stays together for always.
Knowing the celluloid that Bratsche bought and used is good ( thanks for sharing, Bratsche) and payable, I conclude not to put energy anymore in trying to recycle. The pieces I have are still good. If I need more, I would go for the Bratsche material. And if you have too much, Bratsche, I can share and buy a piece from you. The same with the ultem, Jim and my celluloid or cow horn. ( though the cow horn is a bit soft.)

Timthebear, I heard of a mandolinist who used piano key ivory for a plectrum; he says it is difficult to play, because you have to be very relaxing with the right hand.

Margriet :Smile:

----------


## bratsche

I've just finished my first Roman plectrum with the Ultem that Jim sent - and it is really amazing material!  Despite being half as thick as the celluloid, it was actually more difficult to work, which I assume to mean it is significantly harder.  He told me it was some tough stuff; well, that is certainly true on the polishing end.  I deliberately only polished the edges of this pick, and made the center portion a little rougher with 400 grit sandpaper.  Ironically, this material is highly polished to begin with, which I found out after finally realizing it had a protective film covering both faces.  That was a big "duh" moment for me, as I had wondered why it seemed to be so brittle that it was de-laminating at the surface, or something.  But the reason I roughed it up is because I made a nick on the surface while cutting out the shape, and wanted to camouflage it!

As to how it plays, it really gives a wonderful big sound.  It is noticeably more bright a sound than the darker-timbred celluloid tone, but I don't know if that is only because it's thinner.  It's a clear, pure kind of bright, without any harshness.  (I am comparing the two on one of my mandolas.)

If I get some thicker Ultem, it will be interesting to compare the thicknesses, but it will surely take a while to make a pick just based on how long this one took. On the positive side, I imagine it will last very long, just judging how long this one took to sand and polish!   Oh - and this one is actually a wee bit flexible.  I don't know how that will affect my enjoyment of playing with it, as I've only done so for a short time.  But you can feel the strings' vibration through it in your fingers, which I am not accustomed to from playing only with picks that are 100% rigid.

But initially - I am very favorably impressed with the quality.  Thank you again, Jim!  I hope you've all had a wonderful Easter! 

bratsche

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice job, bratsche! I have only been successful on the thinner stuff. Even thicker will be really interesting.

----------


## michaelhooper

Fender Heavy, Teardrop 354. Always. They are nice and stiff and you can buy them cheaply (by the 1/2 gross). I tend to go through them quite quickly: if I'm playing normally, they last a few weeks; if I'm playing something contemporary, they might only last a piece... I don't usually use fake-tortoiseshell ones, since my preference is for white, but that's what they sent me last order.
After some playing the edges do wear down. That in itself isn't the problem. What can be tricky is that one gets used to playing with a worn plectrum, and then the one uses a fresh one those extra 1/2 millimetres are the difference between a delicate played at speed upstroke and missing. I find it takes 20 minutes or so to get back accuracy after that kind of change. On the other hand, I do think they are nicer to use after a little playing, if only so they stick to the fingers better. That may sound unpleasant, but it's useful for keeping the wrist loose.
Also, I think this plectrum has, for me, the right curvature. Although I don't really move it around much, sometimes it is necessary to be percussive with the edge, hitting the string. Anything too big and one is prone to hit too many strings at once!
(I do find it easier to tremolo with a stiffer plectrum, though it doesn't make that much difference.)
By the way, the pic is my normal hand position when playing (well, more normally there's a mandolin there...). Fingers out of the way, arched wrist, nice and loose.

----------


## JeffD

Here is some superlative playing - and some close ups of classical plectrum technique.

----------


## timthebear

The same with the ultem, Jim and my celluloid or cow horn. ( though the cow horn is a bit soft.)

Thanks, Margriet, for the info about the ivory. I do not much like working with ivory (nor do the others in my house) because it stinks when you work it. Maybe I will save it for some other purpose. I think it might be pretty miserable to play with as well; too hard. I have to say that I saw it once again listed as plectrum material in a facsimile of a mandolineschule that I was reading for fun on the web, along with bone, which seems like a most unlikely material. I was just thinking about the possibility of horn as a plectrum material when I saw your comment. There might be some bison horn available locally, and there is an elk farm nearby, not to mention the many cattle farms hereabouts. I wonder if they are all pretty much the same. 
Here's a question for anyone: are all shells of turtles verboten, or just the shells of  tortoise? It is not uncommon here to come across the shell of road-killed turtles, some of which can be reasonably large. Has anyone ever done that kind of recycling? 

I am enjoying using the Roman plectrum I have made. The thin breadth has allowed me to shift from a three fingered grip (PIM) which I have usually used with broader picks to a two fingered grip (PI). It allows some control over the precision in depth of stroke to avoid hitting the fingerboard extension on my mando which runs right over the sound hole and is really quite close to the string and rather annoying since it changes the voice of the first course. 

Have fun.

tgb

----------


## antekboodzik

> About recycling of celluloid: I asked a chemist and he said it is a polymere. Melting is not possible, only maybe solving like the pingpongball in the video of Antek, but he thinks there will be also the rest of aceton, that is not ideal. When I asked about gluing thin pieces to each other, he answered that polymere is a kind of plastic, so that is difficult to glue that it stays together for always.
> Margriet


Sorry, celluloid can be solved with ease, glued, melted (but it is technically challenging, as it is flammamble - correct me if you see mistakes or misspeches), and it is not exactly a polymere...  :Smile:  please look at this:

   

I cut three thumbpicks onto a small parts, put it in a jar and add acetone (100% from hardware store, acetone for removing nail laquer has too much water). It took far less time to solve I have expected (hours, not days), but at first I made the mixture too dense, so I added some more acetone and let it stay fot a night. Then I have poured it to some plastic packet and it produced funny, celluloid boat (nottice the initial level of a liquid mixture):



It is not perfect, only "walls" of the boat are stiff and transparent, the flat, bottom part is matty and somehow flexible, but maybe it not dried completely. And still quite thin in fact...
May I join you in the celluloid sharing business?  :Smile: 
Greetings, Antek.

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## bratsche

Very interesting experiment.  So now I may need to be saving my leftover celluloid scrap.  ;-)   Antek, you asked for correction: the particular word you (and Margriet, too) want for describing this process is "*dis*solve", not "solve".

Timthebear: I would never recommend working indoors with ivory, for the reason you noted, or not wearing a mask when stirring up dust from it.  That "stink" is rather like a dentist drilling your teeth, no?

JeffD: thanks for posting one of my favorite Bach mandolin videos from YouTube.   That is certainly some technique to emulate!  (If only!)

bratsche

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## JeffD

My favorite as well. Its the real deal.

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi JeffD and Bratsche,

Yest that one is sure an excellent and beautiful Bach performance! There is another Bach video by Sebastiaan de Grebber that I like very much. And also on that one you can see how 
the Roman plectrum - a real _'classical'_ plectrum - can be used. 

Enjoy and here is the link to that one.


Best, Alex.

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## Margriet

thanks everyone contributing here, I like it very much, we help each other this way.

Jeff and Alex, thanks for sharing the videos, I like them a lot and they are very helpful to seeing the technique of holding and playing the Roman plectrum.

Bratsche, yes, *dissolve* that is the word.....thanks.

Antek: it seems that my "chemist man" was wrong. I showed him the formule on the web, but....  
Sorry, for the wrong information and thanks for sharing your experiments.
I have rest parts of cutting and also teeth of a comb, I can always have a try like you, instead of throwing them away. Anyway, I am glad with the availability that Bratsche discovered.
What exactly are you meaning by "joining in the celluloid sharing business?" To send each other examples? To buy together a bigger piece at Texas knifes ? To share experiences ?

Timthebear: I did not want to discourage you, making plectra out of horn. The ones we made are rather nice and it is also a question of taste and the effect on the instrument, the strings and the music. For the mandoloncello of Alex it was a bit too soft. But some others liked it on the mandolin. We made them from horn of a Scottish Highlander. We did not discover yet the whole horn, maybe there are softer and harder parts of the horn. So I would say: have a try, and find out what you like. 
About the tortoise shell: I do not have an answer on your question about the road- killed turtles, I do not know. The only tortoise shell I recycled, was from before 1947. There were things made of it and I could make plectra out of these.

Margriet

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## antekboodzik

> To buy together a bigger piece at Texas knifes ?


Yes, that would be a good idea. From here:
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/index...th=587_604_607
or here, at least as far at it is not a laminated material:
http://www.axinc.net/category_s/47.htm

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## Enzo Puzzovio

Hello everyone, I've just joined the Café. I'm about to take up the baroque mandolino and puzzled about choice of plectrum for a gut-strung 6-course instrument. Some of the repertoire appears better with fingers, other pieces with plectrum. But what to use?

Enzo

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## Jim Garber

Enzo, welcome to the Cafe and to the Classical section. I am certainly no expert on mandolino but from others I have gathered that they are often played with a feather quill plectrum. I would also imagine that fingers are proper as well. BTW who mad your instrument and how did you come to choose that type of mandolin? It might be nice to see photos, if you have some.

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Enzo, 

To play the *Mandolino* that is strung with gut-strings you use a wooden quill. 

And more in particular a quill made of the wood of the cherry tree.

_Here you can find info about how to make such a quill:_ http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...light=plectrum


Best and success, 

Alex.

PS. _Here is a writing on the subject I shared with people at Facebook some time ago:_ http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=...08523005855291

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## Jim Garber

Ah, I stand corrected...

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