# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  Bluegrass Underground

## Willie Poole

On TV last night I watched The Traveling McCourys, the show is called Bluegrass Underground because it is performed in a cave in Tennessee...I did not hear one song that could be classified as bluegrass....The guitar player was Keller (something or the other) and he didn`t even wear any shoes and his guitar playing was all over the place, chords that I know weren`t even in the songs they played...

    This is what discusses me when they call that kind of music "Bluegrass", we all know the talents of Ronnie and Rob and along with Jason Carter on fiddle they are about as good as any band out there but I guess they want to make a splash without dad...As much as I enjoy them with Del I will not go to see or even listen to them without dad....

    Just my opinion, more power to you if you enjoy them....

    Willie

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## journeybear

Willie, I've mentioned this show a few times since one of my local PBS stations started running it this year. I agree with you that the title is misleading, as its current roster of performers vary far and wide and many have little or nothing to do with bluegrass. Perhaps it started out with more traditional performers, I don't know, but it's in its fourth season now. They did have The Gibson Brothers on last week, the David Grisman Folk/Jazz Trio two weeks before that, and the Steep Canyon Rangers earlier on. The show you saw is scheduled for this week here. I've been looking forward to it, even though my favorite McCoury is Del.

The website could be easier to navigate, but there are a few videos there, including Ralph Stanley  doing "O Death" a capella and Jerry Douglas - with drums. So, not strictly bluegrass.  :Wink: 

They tape all the shows for the season during one weekend, and this year that's coming up at the end of next month. They have some bluegrass, and also some other stuff. They seem to be able to attract a lot of top notch talent. The lure of playing in a cavern chamber 333 feet below the ground, in apparently very good acoustics, is surely irresistible to a lot of performers, and they are building quite a roster of alumni.

The Complete Season 5 Bluegrass Underground lineup: 

Friday, March 27
Bela Fleck & Abigail Washburn
Hot Rize
Robert Earl Keen
Chatham County Line 

Saturday, March 28
Jerry Douglas presents The Earls of Leicester
Lee Ann Womack
Amos Lee
The Quebe Sisters 

Sunday, March 29
Leftover Salmon
Railroad Earth
Greensky Bluegrass

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## emzech

Wow. I'm very excited for March 29th now! Thanks, journeybear, for the heads up!

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## journeybear

Um, sorry - sold out. Not sure what the seating capacity is, but I'm sure the demand for tickets for those bands was strong. But looking at the show times, they run a tight schedule of 45 minutes, half of which (23 minutes) makes it to broadcast.

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## JH Murray

Bluegrass Underground is put together by the same people who do the Music City Roots show out of Nashville. Very similar  line up between the two programs.

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## Jackgaryk

I usually set up the dvr to record bluegrass underground.  If they have a good mandolin picker I will watch the show. If not....I delete it.  As far as the cave...I'm only about 80 miles away and never wanted to go see it live.  Late night in my recliner with a mandolin in my lap with the surround sound kicking does it for me.  well maybe an adult beverage or three. Retirement is good!

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## emzech

> Um, sorry - sold out. Not sure what the seating capacity is, but I'm sure the demand for tickets for those bands was strong. But looking at the show times, they run a tight schedule of 45 minutes, half of which (23 minutes) makes it to broadcast.


Ah, I think I misunderstood your post. I thought those were the TV air times, not the recording dates. I had heard that Greensky was going to be on the program this year, but hadn't heard about RRE or LS being there so I was happy to see them. It kind of makes sense they would all play/record on the same day. But I wasn't planning on buying a ticket. I live 1,000 miles north in middle of the glacier formerly known as Massachusetts, plus I'm a bit too claustrophobic to hangout in a hole deep underground.

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## mbruno

Honestly, the venue just looks awesome.  I'd like to go just to go there and experience it - and I live in San Diego.  

Never seen a show in a cave before.  Now I feel like I have to  :Smile:

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## David Cottingham

Reminds me of a fun band who call themselves Blueground Undergrass.

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## coletrickle

> On TV last night I watched The Traveling McCourys, the show is called Bluegrass Underground because it is performed in a cave in Tennessee...I did not hear one song that could be classified as bluegrass....The guitar player was Keller (something or the other) and he didn`t even wear any shoes and his guitar playing was all over the place, chords that I know weren`t even in the songs they played...
> 
>     This is what discusses me when they call that kind of music "Bluegrass", we all know the talents of Ronnie and Rob and along with Jason Carter on fiddle they are about as good as any band out there but I guess they want to make a splash without dad...As much as I enjoy them with Del I will not go to see or even listen to them without dad....
> 
>     Just my opinion, more power to you if you enjoy them....
> 
>     Willie


I didn't watch this but if you are talking about Keller Williams, I wonder if the set was more about his songs with the McCoury's backing him. I've seen The Traveling McCourys live and I thought they had a nice mix of traditional bluegrass, with bit of a progressive spin on some songs. While not everything was traditional, they had a lot of numbers there were straight up bluegrass. Keller is not bluegrass and if they are playing with him, it is going to be a much different set. 

On another note, the McCoury's album with the Lee Boys (Meetin' In the Middle) is such a great album. Cross section of bluegrass gospel and sacred steel...really cool sound (not traditional bluegrass).

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## journeybear

> I'm a bit too claustrophobic to hangout in a hole deep underground.


I know shat you mean. I've done some caving, and some of them were really just a little more than a hole in the ground. This looks like an enormous room as far as caves go. It also looks really cool - and I don't mean the constant 56°  :Wink:  so I'd be willing to give it a try. If I am reading the website right, tickets for each taping are $30, which isn't too bad for set from 3-4 acts. It looks like they have other shows during the year, too, not just for the weekend that is taped for later broadcast on PBS. In fact, coming up is IIIrd Time Out, a bluegrass band. Imagine that - I actually brought it back around to the original topic.  :Smile:

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## Willie Poole

Coletrickle,  Thanks for that info, I had not seen The Travelin`McCoury`s until that show and you are most likely correct that they were just backing up Keller Williams, I wasn`t really putting them down for what they were playing, what gets me is how promoters can call stuff like that "Bluegrass", but Robbie did play The Foggy Mountain Breakdown at the end of one song....I had never heard of Keller Williams before and don`t care if I ever see or hear of him again, CAN`T  HE  AFFORD  SHOES? Playing in a 56 degree cave must have made his feet cold....I have a friend that lived real close to the cave and he said he never really cared about going either maybe he felt uncomfortable under ground too...And he loves and plays bluegrass, actually he plays a banjo UGH...

    Willie

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## DataNick

Travellin McCourys did a "Jam Band" set with the String Cheese Incident out here last year at Huck Finn. It was not at all what most people I run with would call Bluegrass; but apparently the popular trend these days is to lump most flavors of Acoustic music with a "Country" type instrumentation into a "Bluegrass" label (re: Ricky Skaggs having Peter Frampton do "Baby I Love Your Way" on the Opry). It is not the Bluegrass of Bill Monroe, Flatt & Scruggs, Stanley Brothers, etc. As the saying goes however, "It is what it is", and it is futile to argue about it. 

It is refreshing however that apparently a significant number of young people are listening to acoustic music versus the "pop" stuff, so that's a silver lining. When you share with young people that you play or are into bluegrass, those are the kinds of acts they're thinking of (String Cheese, Barefoot Movement, Yonder Mountain Stringband, Della Mae, etc).

My personal experience however is when "introduced" to Bill Monroe, Flatt & Scruggs, Stanley Brothers, etc that young people dig it.

The labels have shifted, but there's room for everybody!

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sgarrity, 

Tom Coletti

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## mbruno

I loved Huck Finn last year and I'm not a huge fan of Cheese in general.  I love the blend of traditional and new.  I'm in to jam bands like Phish and Travelin McCourys and etc - but something about Cheese I just don't like that much.  Maybe I need to listen to them more.

The thing that always strikes me as odd is that Bill Monroe has been quoted a few times saying stuff like "I was determined to carge out a music of my own. I didn't want to copy anybody."  Then the died hard Monroe-ians get in a hissy fit when someone changes their bluegrass music because they didn't copy Bill.  Bluegrass (and all music) is meant to change with the times.  There's something wonderful about the old music, it's great to hear standards redone and new songs that sound like old ones - but hearing something fresh is just amazing.

Chris Thile's genere hopping youtube is a good example.  Blur the lines, get excited about music, do weird things, and have fun.

All that said, Nick I agree.  Once people hear the old stuff, they love it.  I know that happened to me - but I still like playing Paranoid Android on mandolin even though I'll never get to play it at the bluegrass jams  :Smile:

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Ellen T, 

Tom Coletti

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## DataNick

> ...All that said, Nick I agree.  Once people hear the old stuff, they love it.  I know that happened to me - but I still like playing Paranoid Android on mandolin even though I'll never get to play it at the bluegrass jams


I hear ya Bruno, and I'll play "Back In Black" on the mando, but not at a Bluegrass jam either  :Smile:

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## CES

Willie,

Keller Williams doesn't play your kind of music, but he's a really talented musician. He's a master of the one man band set up with a looper. Lays down bass line, drums, keys, rhythm guitar, then plays lead and sings. His music isn't my favorite, either, as there's only so much jam band I can take on recordings (live it's definitely a better experience), but the guy can rip it...but, agree totally that it ain't bluegrass!! 

Peace,

Chuck

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## mbruno

> I hear ya Bruno, and I'll play "Back In Black" on the mando, but not at a Bluegrass jam either


Next time I see you at a jam, let's rock out  :Wink: 

I just taught Wish You Were Here and Red Haired Boy in the same lesson  :Smile:

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DataNick

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## Tom Coletti

> The thing that always strikes me as odd is that Bill Monroe has been quoted a few times saying stuff like "I was determined to carve out a music of my own. I didn't want to copy anybody."  Then the died hard Monroe-ians get in a hissy fit when someone changes their bluegrass music because they didn't copy Bill.


I've been saying this constantly, but trying to throw reason at those who took everything that the guy lived for, turned it on its head, and made a false prophet to violently defend is like trying to kick water uphill. You're not going to win.

--Tom

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## Tom Coletti

> On TV last night I watched The Traveling McCourys, the show is called Bluegrass Underground because it is performed in a cave in Tennessee...I did not hear one song that could be classified as bluegrass....The guitar player was Keller (something or the other) and he didn`t even wear any shoes and his guitar playing was all over the place, chords that I know weren`t even in the songs they played...
> 
>     This is what discusses me when they call that kind of music "Bluegrass", we all know the talents of Ronnie and Rob and along with Jason Carter on fiddle they are about as good as any band out there but I guess they want to make a splash without dad...As much as I enjoy them with Del I will not go to see or even listen to them without dad....
> 
>     Just my opinion, more power to you if you enjoy them....
> 
>     Willie


I told myself not to jump in the trenches, but not one song? I'll call and re-raise.

With neither prior knowledge nor prejudice towards the artists or venue described, I dug through some video clips to see how blasphemous this supposedly was. First, a warmup piece to familiarize one's self with The Travelin' McCourys. Something undoubtedly early bluegrass, like say, Train 45?




Now a video from the Bluegrass Underground set with Keller Williams, colloquially known as the Antichrist by the accusations set in the original post:




There's a traditional 1-4-5 bluegrass chord progression in C, traditional Scruggs-style banjo, traditional quintet of instruments, traditional rhythm held by the bass and mandolin chop on the downbeat and upbeat, respectively, traditional high tenor harmonies, traditional pattern of vocal chorus intermixed with instrumental breaks in which each instrument improvises around a melody, a mention of Prohibition-era alcohol, and the mandolinist even has a history of playing in a very Monroe-esque style right down to chord-based and double-stop-based runs and eighth notes with only down strokes. 

If this isn't "Real, True, Traditional, and Other Applicable Meaningless Buzzword Bluegrass," then I don't know what to tell ya, man... Maybe they did covers of non-bluegrass or progressive bluegrass numbers on other tracks, but there is indisputable proof that at least one track in that show could at the very least potentially qualify as bluegrass just by meeting all of the commonly-accepted criteria.

As a side note, who cares if Keller didn't wear shoes? Bill probably hasn't worn shoes since 1996. Haven't heard him complain.

--Tom

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## Mark Christensen

I think good Ol' Willie should post a video of himself playing Bluegrass so all us hacks and pro's alike can finally see the right way to play it. Can I wear sandals?

Tom Colletti there's no point in trying to convince Willie the Master of "That ain't Bluegrass" of anything. In fact you could be subjected to a PM by him (like I was) telling you how right he is ad nauseam. It ain't worth it.

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stevedenver

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## Jackgaryk

thanks Tom C for the "train 45" video.  have not seen it before.  That guitar picker is Cody Kilby.  imho one of the greatest bluegrass flatpickers ever.  got to see him live with Ricky Skaggs & Kentucky Thunder and been a fan of theirs since.  

"Oh yeah....the boy can play"

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## Mandomax

I wasn't going to weigh in, but Willie getting a lot of undeserved hate in this thread, IMHO.  Having seen Del and the boys over 20X, and the Travelin' McCourys over 15x (with Jeff White, Jake Stargel, Cody Kilby, Bill Nershi, and Keller Williams occupying the guitar slot at various times), I will state that my least favorite incarnation of the group has been featuring Keller on guitar.  
Keller has his own schtick, which I won't comment on, but when you try to shoehorn that in with one of the finest bluegrass bands on the planet, "that dog don't hunt."  He doesn't play bluegrass guitar- no powerful Flatt runs, no driving bass runs, just no drive in general.  During one show I attended, Keller started improvising on the letters of alphabet- it was as bad as it sounds.  
Throwing in that clip of "Train 45" was not analogous AT ALL- Cody Kilby is one of the finest flatpickers out there, and knows his way around a guit-box.  My personal opinion is that The McCoury Boys are smart businessmen, and they know their demographic lately has been the jam band scene.  Combining forces with Keller increases their draw, which leads to some nice folding money.
Music is a huge tent, with room enough for us all.  But words have meaning, and continued dilution of a word by broadening its definition eventually removes any semblance of what it was intended to describe in the beginning. I have typed too much already, but I will finish out by stating Ronnie is what I aspire to be as a picker and a man- great person, father and husband.

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DataNick, 

Jackgaryk

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## Willie Poole

Mandomax, Thanks 

   Mark, I am too dumb on this computer to know how to post a video but I will PM you so you can see one or three that is of me playing "Bluegrass".....If you think going barefoot while playing at a show where people pay quite a bit to get in to enjoy music then you need to be raised in a jungle, I have never done a thing to upset you that I know of and will say this that I have played with a few of the big bluegrass names in my time so I do believe I know what really makes music bluegrass, I have also found that what people on the west cost, namely the younger crowd, accept as bluegrass is different then what we on the east cost prefer...If you really think that what Keller Williams is playing falls into the Bluegrass category then you are the one that needs to be re educated....I did not knock what or how they played just the fact that is being sold as "Bluegrass" for that I blame the promoters, not the pickers because they need to make a living...

     On second thought I will not PM you to show you those videos, you wouldn`t like them anyway because we are wearing shoes (boots)....

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Mark Christensen

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## journeybear

> ... I did not knock what or how they played just the fact that is being sold as "Bluegrass" for that I blame the promoters, not the pickers ...


Hey, folks. As I said before, the name of the show is "Bluegrass Underground," but it's not all bluegrass. I haven't been able to find the complete roster of performers so I could see whether it ever was - yet - but I have a feeling it never was, in order to appeal to a wider demographic range. So yes, the name of the program is misleading. Discuss. 



OK, are you done? OK, cool. Not a whole lot there, IMO.  :Whistling:

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## Mark Christensen

Hey Willie you kill me! Yea I've heard this all before from you about all the great people you've played with etc. etc. I guess that gives you the right to condemn someone because he doesn't wear shoes on stage or doesn't play a proper G run and Willie I'm way into middle age and have lived on both coasts, the south and the Mid-West. Tell you what, why don't you just make a big list of all the people that don't play bluegrass to your liking and why, then we'll know where you really stand. C'mon get it out of your system in one giant post. Another thing Willie if you don't like the program on tv change the channel. Yea and I figured you wouldn't come up with an actual video.

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## journeybear

Still searching for Season 1. As we can see from this, though, they were more bluegrass oriented in the second season, though still hardly strictly bluegrass.

Season 2 Taping Schedule

2/24/12
Del McCoury Band
The Civil Wars
Doyle Lawson and Quicksilver
David Mayfield Parade 

2/24/12
Vince Gill
Jim Lauderdale
The Timejumpers
Sarah Jarosz 

2/26/12
Jerry Douglas
Scott Miller
The Black Lillies
The Vespers

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## Eric C.

If someone knows Willie's beliefs on what bluegrass is - or isn't- why on earth would they open a thread with "Bluegrass" in the title, in the "Bluegrass" forum that was started by Willie other than to directly attack him? There is no requirement to open every thread on the forums, especially one that so obviously would upset and offend you to the point that personal attacks would be typed up? Bad form.

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## Timbofood

Gee Mark, sounds like you have an axe to grind with Willie. This is all about opinion, I think we know where Willie stands and increasingly we are learning about what you like, the two may never align which is fine but, you don't need to get snotty about it, do you?
Just saying, it's a lot easier to be nice.

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## Mark Christensen

I personally opened the thread because I like the show and thought for once Willie might have something good to say but no the same ol' "That ain't Bluegrass" BS. What's bad form is condemning working musicians making a living and posting about it. He could easily have chosen to change the channel and keep his mouth closed.

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## Mark Christensen

Hey Timbofood, again you're sticking up for your buddy, I get it but I have just as much of a right to express my opinion as he does on this forum and I think it's in really poor taste to judge working musicians for no other reason than he doesn't agree with the title used. It's ridiculous. That nice enough for ya?
I decided to add this Timbofood, I've read plenty of comments from you where you're pretty snotty( you're word) to other posters including myself in the past, is this a one way street or do you practice what you preach?

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## Timbofood

Mark, I have expressed my opinion, maybe a bit harshly from time to time, but what I see coming from you toward Willie is pretty pointed. I don't know Willie from Adams off ox and have taken exception to his views in the past, so, I will simply excuse myself from this little rant.
I have watched "BG Underground" a few times, and Willie, had you only seen the Doyle Lawson show, you might feel differently, I have only seen the clip shared earlier in the thread, not to my normal taste but, mighty hot picking by the Traveling McCourys. As far as footwear, if he's not waving a stinky foot in my general direction, who cares? I completely agree, we have the ability to excercise complete censorship, change the channel, or turn the thing off!
Have a better day tomorrow, both of you.
T

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## Mark Christensen

Oh I get it, when you do it TimboFood it's a bit harsh but when I express my opinion it's pretty pointed. So I guess it's a two way street then? Sounds like Hypocrite St. to me and I don't appreciate the digs that this is a rant or I'm having a bad day. I was expressing my opinion.

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## Timbofood

"Life gets tedious, don't it?" Doc Watson
Good night Mark

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## DataNick

Speaking from experience (when I got into it with JourneyBear), Bluegrass is a topic best left alone on the Cafe. A fascinating topic that stirs up the most heated emotions, but one best left alone, IMHO. I don't see where either side of this debate will ever agree, or come to some kind of consensus.

And to set the record straight for myself; though I may disagree with you, I respect and stand up for your freedom of conscience in any thought process, Bluegrass included.

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journeybear, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

Cooler heads may or may not prevail come the 'morrow but, I have been subject to venom before and will walk away from a personal attack, un warranted as I may feel it may be. We must simply agree to disagree, and not call names, Yes?

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DataNick

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## journeybear

I'm not completely sure, but I think the disagreement Nick and I had that one time was more about semantics than music. I don't see any reason why bluegrass should be off-limits for discussion. It's bound to come up here, pretty often.  :Wink:  And I don't recall any instances where Tim has said anything snotty. He may have made an attempt at humor that fell a bit short - we all do that, and lord knows I've done so myself - but I haven't noticed any attitude from him of that sort. Anyway, I don't see why this subject should be generating such high emotions. It doesn't seem warranted in this case.

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DataNick, 

Timbofood

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## Tom Coletti

I don't know how this went from repetitive exasperation to genuine animosity, but 2:03 AM is as good of a bedtime as any.

Reopen with caution. Some tact may help, too. 

--Tom

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## Franc Homier Lieu

Well, this might not clear the air, but it could provide some relief from the pent up  pressure on this thread: Keller Williams' cover of the Bill Monroe classic:

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## journeybear

My local PBS station will be running this episode tonight. Then I'll get to see for myself what all the fuss is about. That is, whether it's a lot of huffin' and puffin' for nothin', or, what's all the hubbub, bub?

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## Willie Poole

Mark, I usually tape all shows that are called bluegrass and then when I watch a few songs and don`t like what I am hearing I hit the stop button  rewind the tape..

   Like I said I don`t know what I have done to piss you off.... I guess you can play and call music anything you like....And I will do the same, if you think that was bluegrass then that is your opinion and you certainly are entitled to that....I`m sorry if my definition isn`t the same as yours.....

     I hope this is finished now...I won`t answer any more on this subject so you can have the last word, it seems that is all you want anyway....

    Willie (BOOTS)

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## CES

Willie,

Your opinion regarding footwear, or the lack thereof, is completely irrelevant to whether someone is playing bluegrass music. I'll avoid social commentary about generational and genre related differences regarding definitions of professionalism, but that ain't got nothing to do with how someone's music sounds...

Peace, 
Chuck

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Tom Coletti

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## Jackgaryk

> My local PBS station will be running this episode tonight. Then I'll get to see for myself what all the fuss is about. That is, whether it's a lot of huffin' and puffin' for nothin', or, what's all the hubbub, bub?


JB...just checked my local pbs listing and tonight features dave egger (cellist, pianist) with amy lee (classical trained pianist and rock band vocalist) along with a irish hip hop dance group called hammerstep. hope you enjoy your BGU show tonight.

up here in north Georgia that probably aint gonna get a lot of blugrass fan attention. but like you JB....I could be wrong. :Smile:

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## journeybear

Mm-hmm, yep. That episode ran here six weeks ago. Hit or miss on that one. And definitely NOT bluegrass. Nor was the following week's offering, Jason Isbell. But if they follow the same schedule as my station, in two weeks you'll get David Grisman Folk/Jazz Trio - not bluegrass, but that mandolin picker shows some promise, if he sticks with it  :Wink:  - followed by Lucinda Williams, who was excellent, and then The Gibson Brothers, some actual bluegrass, for a change.  :Whistling: 

Someone might want to write the show's producers a letter, suggesting they consider changing the name to better reflect the music they feature. They may well feel that they've built up a fan base and name recognition and don't feel such a change is needed or wanted.

Here's what I have for this season's broadcast schedule (I posted this a couple-few weeks ago on the Mandolins On TV - Advance Notice thread).

Widespread Panic
Steep Canyon Rangers
Dave Eggar with Amy Lee; Hammerstep
Jason Isbell And The 400 Unit
David Grisman Folk/Jazz Trio
Lucinda Williams
The Gibson Brothers
Davina & the Vagabonds
Keller Williams with The Travelin' McCourys
Shovels & Rope
Hayes Carll
Michael Martin Murphey
Chip Taylor

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Jackgaryk

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## Timbofood

Hey BOOTS, 
I am fond of Dan Post and Tony Lama personally.
I think you and I have a somewhat similar feel for our musical preferences, others may or may not, I have no interest in the challenge of changing peoples taste, I find it completely futile.
Somehow you and I have deeply offended some folks here, I am content to let sleeping dogs lie.
Apparently agreeing with one is defense of an opinion to another.
Done with this one.
Thanks to Tom Colleti and JB for their voice of reason.
Time to make some afternoon snacks!
Comfortable house slippers!

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## Jackgaryk

I gotta tell you Tim...this thread has kept me on the edge of my seat. it has the makings of a good book and it may never end.  btw I really like my timberland boots.    :Laughing:

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## Timbofood

Soap opera more accurately! :Laughing: 
I have a pair of "Chippewas" I got about thirty years ago, they are still going strong, and a pair of UGGs patterned after Sorels about thirteen years old and they are going strong. I am not hard on footwear.
Thanks Jack! 
Be careful, you may now be a "buddy" and could be..... Well, you get it :Wink:

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Jackgaryk

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## Tom Coletti

I don't think anyone is arguing about whether or not it's bluegrass at this point. From what's available online, their set was a non-traditional acoustic outing that covered a variety of genres and cross-pollination through 5 of the main bluegrass instruments, save for the one more-or-less traditionally-approached bluegrass tune that I mentioned and analyzed on the first page.

The blanket-statement dismissals regarding shoe or no shoe (or young people on the west coast or Chris Thile's hair or names on a headstock in the last few escapades) seem to be what cheesed off the most people, simply because they're pointless, petty visual aesthetic arguments that derail any relevant discussion on sound. The refusal to give the McCourys a shot sans Del was another somewhat hasty judgement, since they really do follow more of a traditional strain than most when they're not playing with Keller. It's surely possible to be a bluegrass band that plays in the traditional style but occasionally showcases other abilities to better relate to a guest musician's different background. That being said, the "stop yelling at me so I can yell at you" method of conveying a point didn't really work here. 

--Tom (FLIP FLOPS)

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## Mark Christensen

So what's the purpose of this forum? To put down working musicians or others trying to enjoy the mandolin? Is it to placate to a few with thousands of comments with their snide remarks? This post it's about Keller Williams, last it was about Ricky Skaggs then it was about some kids he jammed with in Florida and on and on. I don't see how these opinions on an open forum would change anything about Traditional Bluegrass, other than to dump on people I don't see the point, to me it's bordering on bigotry, that's what I'm objecting to. I have a thick skin, in fact most of the time I'm laughing about the response's to my response's but that doesn't change the fact IMHO that dumping on other musicians is not what this forums about regardless of your so-called Bluegrass pedigree. If that's ok with you that's more of a reflection on you than me. I'm not a fan of Keller Williams but he's not the first musician to not wear shoes on stage. It has nothing to do with the music, period.

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## Tom Coletti

Hell, I made one of those dumb "Bill Monroe sucks" threads in the past, only to realize that I was drawing hasty conclusions from examples from his waning years that weren't his best playing, so once I saw the full picture I grew out of that stigma and had some respect for the guy when I later delved into his philosophy of not wanting to copy people. That put his adamant opposition to others copying him a more noble perspective: he was trying to prevent the formation of the current bluegrass police. Bluegrass was progressive when Bill and the Bluegrass Boys started it, and he wanted it to keep progressing with new artists and new influences.

My point, Mark, is that we all say stupid crap that we later grow out of. Willie will probably look past unkempt hair and bare feet at some point, and then we can all laugh it off over a pint while playing Temperance Reel in a final act of irony.

--Tom

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## Timbofood

We are all our own worst enemies or best friends. Given an opportunity to simply play some tunes together, I hope, Mark, Willie and I would just play some music and not piss anyone off. No harm, no foul, simple difference of opinion, isn't that REALLY what this crankiness is all about?
I have been wrong before but, not been wrong about having an opinion.
From "Paper Moon": 
" You go to your church and, I'll go to mine"
Pax vobiscum

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## journeybear

OK, so I just watched this episode, and I've got mixed feelings. First, they sounded more bluegrass-y than I was expecting, yet half the time they didn't sound like traditional bluegrass. They used the elements and instruments of bluegrass, sometimes in interesting ways, but somehow the overall effect wasn't very involving. I kept nodding off, which is not a good sign. The pickers were good, the singing was fine, it just was lacking in some way. I didn't feel much passion, or at least not enough to maintain my interest. I don't think it had anything to do with someone performing barefoot, which I probably wouldn't have even noticed if it hadn't been mentioned here. It did seem a bit weird, though - never seen that in a bluegrass context, or, for that matter, for a guy to do it. Girls do it now and then, and more in the pop and rock world; Joss Stone is known for this, for instance, but on an oriental rug, not on a bare stage in 56° room. Not that it matters, but, eh, whatever.

It's worth noting that right at the start of the show there's a bit of introductory footage with the following four title phrases in succession: "Bluegrass - Roots Rock - Neo-Folk - Americana." This is their way of telling viewers what to expect, regardless of the name of the show. So, you know, tune in, but pay attention, and you won't misunderstand.

----------

Jackgaryk

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## Rex Hart

> Hell, I made one of those dumb "Bill Monroe sucks" threads in the past, only to realize that I was drawing hasty conclusions from examples from his waning years that weren't his best playing, so once I saw the full picture I grew out of that stigma and had some respect for the guy when I later delved into his philosophy of not wanting to copy people. That put his adamant opposition to others copying him a more noble perspective: he was trying to prevent the formation of the current bluegrass police. Bluegrass was progressive when Bill and the Bluegrass Boys started it, and he wanted it to keep progressing with new artists and new influences.
> 
> 
> 
> My point, Mark, is that we all say stupid crap that we later grow out of. Willie will probably look past unkempt hair and bare feet at some point, and then we can all laugh it off over a pint while playing Temperance Reel in a final act of irony.
> 
> --Tom


I know, I got my head bit off on this forum one time for merely suggesting that some of Bill's later works were not all classics and I am a huge Monroe fan. Some things are sacred cows.

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## Timbofood

JB, don't you just get mad at yourself when you build something up and then you fall asleep in the middle of a show? It must be either age, or less than stellar entertainment.

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## journeybear

Well, yeah, and it was a bit of both. Plus it runs at 12:30 AM here, I'd had four or five beers at the gig, so ... I  wasn't all that psyched about it to begin with, and if it had been more involving it might have been different, but I was taping it anyway so it didn't really matter if I dozed off ... :Sleepy:

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## journeybear

Well, so ... just to keep all y'all in the loop, the Miami PBS stations have gone to pledge programming. I didn't know they did this in March, but there you go. And they started a day or two early, so that took care of the next few installments of this program - and Austin City Limits, Front And Center, and who knows what else, until the other side of this, which will last* all month.*  :Crying:  And there's no guarantee they will pick up where they left off, or even if they'll continue with these shows. They really are the worst about this, devoting at least a third, maybe nearly half, of the year to pledge programming. And a lot of it is just the most godawful stuff. So that means this much-debated show will be the last impression of the series running through my mind. Thanks to all concerned!  :Mad:

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## Willie Poole

J.B....I noticed that the show hasn`t been on up here in Tampa/Lakeland area for the past two weeks either, some schedule changes or maybe a lot of complaints, who knows...

    Willie

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## journeybear

Well, it's back for me here, starting tonight, and picking up right where it left off with the next act on the season schedule, Shovels & Rope. Next week, Hayes Carll. No MC, though ... But I'm just grateful the fundraising is over, apparently early. Hopefully that's a good sign.  :Wink:

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## Hallmark498

One of the best shows Ive ever seen was the Travellin McCourys with Dan Tyminski!  Trait down the road, low down bluegrass

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## Mandoplumb

Bluegrass music MUST drive or it ain't grass. I'm not talking speed, the classic Country Gentlemen, Flatt and Scruggs, Jimmy Martin as well as others did slower songs, but they all had that DRIVE. That great bluegrass tambourin player I saw on bluegrass underground last night did not. There is a lot of good music on B.U. But it ain't bluegrass so why call it bluegrass.

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## journeybear

Oh, for cryin' out loud! Did you read through the thread before you got up on your soap box? This subject has been dealt with exhaustively. All you're gonna do is stir it all up again and take this thread back down the rabbit hole that it took a lot of doing to save it from. Phooey!  :Mad:

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bassthumper, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

JB, I wonder just how true your statement about how some folks may or may not actually read a thread before jumping in for whatever reason, positive or negative.

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## allenhopkins

Well, I read the whole thread before jumping in.  There are certain things that the average person who likes bluegrass, looks for when a show/album/band/whatever is labeled "bluegrass."  If you're going to call a show _Bluegrass Underground,_ and then feature _Shovels & Rope,_ someone's going to take exception to it.

There's a certain perspective, which can be summed up by, "What I *like* is bluegrass, what I *don't like* isn't."  Usually followed by some grumbling about repertoire, instrumental technique, personal appearance/hygiene, or other factors.

Even Monroe grudgingly acknowledged that his "hippie fans" had more specific knowledge and appreciation of his music, than a lot of his more mainstream-Southern listeners.  There can be musicians who really love traditional bluegrass, were raised playing it, and can still play it beautifully and traditionally -- but still want to do something _different,_ whether they consider it "extending the boundaries," or just going in a different direction.  How about Thile, Grisman, Fleck, Skaggs, Bush, Statman, O'Connor, Douglas -- couldn't we compile a near-endless list?

As someone who really has enjoyed bluegrass for 50 years, I've sat through controversies about electric bass, piezo pickups, female lead singers, drums, harmonica, long hair, costume, lead guitar, extended jams -- and more topics that I've forgotten.  "Newgrass" and "jamgrass" and "jazzgrass" and what-the-hell the _New South_ was doing with pedal steel.  It's an endless source of debate -- which is not an excuse to get personal, guys.

Bill Monroe was an innovator (obviously) when he put together the style.  Other innovators have come along; some innovations were accepted (Josh Graves' Dobro, lead guitar from Doc Watson, Dan Crary, Tony Rice _et. al._).  Others are still frowned on (Charlie McCoy's harmonica).  No one's gonna solve it, no one's "right" or "wrong," it's a matter largely of taste within a pretty loose framework.

If we accept that, we can start being nicer to each other, I think.

----------

DataNick, 

journeybear, 

t.drexel, 

Timbofood

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## journeybear

Allen - Points well-considered and well-written as usual. Pretty much in agreement on all that.

Tim - I may have been in a bit of a grumpy mood at the time, but it did strike me that way. It seemed to me, and still does, that the subject had been done to a turn and nothing new was being added. Perhaps if the poster had said something like "I agree with so-and-so when he said such-and-such" I would most likely have just rolled my eyes and muttered under my breath. Such was not the case.

Times like this I wonder whether I'm wasting my time formulating commentary on various issues if people aren't reading what I have to say. Regardless of its worth, if it's been contributed to a discussion, it behooves one to get up to speed with what's been said already before saying more. Repetition can easily lead to a discussion going around and around rather than toward something more elevating. Repetition can easily lead to a discussion going around and around rather than toward something more elevating. Repetition can  - well, I think I've made my point, No need to drive this deeper into the ground.

To sum up, then: "What is bluegrass?" isn't really the question here. "What is 'Bluegrass Underground' and why is it called that?" is. No one here seems to know the answer to that - not that this will stop people from guessing  :Wink:  - but the show *did* start out more bluegrass-oriented  than it is now, and it still does include bluegrass in its programming. I suggest people who have issues with the show's name write its producers and let them know. We're just chatting amongst ourselves here, without having any actual effect on the rest of the world.  :Whistling:

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allenhopkins

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## Timbofood

I like your take on it too Allen, nicely put.
JB-I get grumpy too, I know what you mean about someone jumping in with a repeat of an earlier complaint with no acknowledgement to the prior post. I have been the subject of some less than courteous posts when simply agreeing with someone. Opinions and tastes change for some, in sometimes irratic manner. And as Allen said (to paraphrase) music changes, and is appreciated in many differing personal ways. 
I started out with very straight traditional taste in BG music, I have become more accepting of more recent developments in the music, some is simply not for me. I won't shriek "That's not" anything about anyone's interpretation of a musical style, it just may not be mine. I have said it before:
It would be a boring life indeed if we all liked exactly the same things!
Vive Le difference! (Pepe Le Peuw)

----------

allenhopkins, 

journeybear

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## journeybear

_Exactement, mon ami!_ There are so many kinds of music, and so many variations within these, it's a virtually endless form of amusement. And to be sure, if this show did provide nothing but bluegrass, I would probably not be tuning in quite so frequently. (I'm not a big bluegrass fan, but I do like a lot of different kinds of music, bluegrass included.) I like these shows that offer a wide variety of styles - even Austin City Limits, though sometimes I wonder about their choices, too, over the last few years.  :Wink:  It's always good to hear something new from musicians you already know and like, and also learn about ones you don't. It's like what Woody Allen said about relationships and sharks, that have to keep moving or they die. You don't want to be left with a dead shark in your CD player (or iPod, or turntable). It can be really hard to get the smell out.  :Disbelief:

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## Ivan Kelsall

I've watched many YouTube clips of the Bluegrass Underground & they seem to have bands from many genres of 'country music'. I assume they do that so that their programmes suit a wide array of people,not simply the die hard Bluegrass fans. One of my favourite US Bluegrass Radio stations is ''The Bluegrass Mix'',with the accent on the 'mix' part of the name. They play a selection of country music from across the board,from Bluegrass to what used to be called Country & Western,but i'd say that maybe there's still more bluegrass than other forms of country music being played. I tuned in yesterday & found to my horror that they're now broadcasting adverts,i assume to raise cash for the station,so who can blame them really. It has however taken the bloom off my listening & 'pick-along' pleasure. The other US station i used to listen to,''Front Porch Bluegrass'' was fine until somehow or other,i began to get ads. broadcast for _UK products & companies._ How that happened i don't know.
   The bottom line is that these days, in order to keep their heads above water,radio stations et al,are having to broaden their horizons & try to appeal to more folk - haven't AKUS been doing that for a long while now. They quit calling themselves a Bluegrass band a few years back,& i quit buying their records. However, i'm sure that the stuff they do record sells to lots of folk outside the Bluegrass field - so be it !,
                                                   Ivan :Wink:

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Timbofood, 

Tony Pearce

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## Mandoplumb

The point I was making in my last post was the name of the program.  Some seemed to misunderstand that. There is a lot of good music on there as well as some not so good IMHO but why call it bluegrass when only a small percentage is bluegrass. Supose there was a show entitled History of the Gibson Mandolins, when you turned it on there was hundreds on mandolins all brands and a story of each but the only reference to a Gibson was the A Jr. And a lump scroll. While all the information on all those mandolins would be interesting would you not think the program was misnamed.

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## Timbofood

They call Gatorade a sports drink but, it doesn't contain sports. :Grin: 
I appreciate your point mandoplumb, and as stated, it started out with a far more BG direction. It has had to broaden it's scope, just as Austin City limits has, I have not seen much of anyone on there I care about in several years. So here we have the responsibility of the viewer to edit their own choices regardless of title, change the channel if you don't like what they are showing or, shut it off and go practice. We few mandolin/bluegrass hard liners will never be the majority, and will suffer a lot of headaches if foot stamping over what is or isn't our view of what any genre may be. When I don't like something, I put in a movie, easy enough.

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## Willie Poole

Quite a few years ago I attended the festivals at Graves Mountain Va., while I mostly did field picking I did spend some time at the stage listening to good bluegrass and then for some reason all of that changed and they started booking some non bluegrass bands so I don`t go any more mainly because it is about 90 miles from where I live one way.....As I have stated on here many times, play what you want and call it what you like but a die hard bluegrasser knows what the real deal is...I like and listen to other kinds of music so it isn`t that I don`t like what is being played at the festivals, it`s just that I don`t think it is right to call it a "Bluegrass festival" and have it all mixed up with other forms of music...One year at Culpepper they booked a few country acts along with bluegrass acts and people left the stage area when the country bands came on, they were good bands but people just wanted bluegrass and that's what they expected to hear... We had a jam session up on the hill that had three times as many people listening to us than what was at the stage listening to Grand Pa Jones and then Porter Wagoner, and they were a big draw at The Opry... Porter later recorded a bluegrass album and sent me a autographed copy of the record, I knew Mack McGahee from years before and he introduced me to Porter....

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Tim - _"... it doesn't contain sports."_. It doesn't contain Gators either - but of course you knew that !. At the weekened show at the IBMA Festival back in'92,not all the artistes on board were Bluegrass either. It was the first time most folks had seen or heard Leroy Troy & he knocked 'em cold !!!. Eddie & Martha Adcock's spot was more 'Folky' than Bluegrass as well,but who cared,certainly not the audience. I have to admit one thing as well,personally,a 100% non-stop Bluegrass show would get a bit tiresome,too much ''all the same sound''. The relief that other music forms brings isn't to be underestimated,& sometime,i've found myself thinking ''I like this stuff'' on being presented with a different form of music. I can't imagine too many folk being disappointed if,in the context of a Bluegrass show,a duo as good as Gillian Welch & David Rawlings came on stage to play & sing.
   As long as Bluegrass Festivals stick 'mainly' to Bluegrass & keep their identity,then a variety of 'associated' music should go down well (IMHO).After all,isn't what we do as musicians as much about the instruments we play,as in _what genre of music_ we play them ?. Good musicianship in any genre of music works 'for me' - as long as i like the music. If i don't, i just wait for the next band along, :Grin: 
                      Ivan :Wink:

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journeybear

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## Timbofood

"Good musicianship in any genre works for me." Boy, ain't that the truth! I love hearing pretty much any musician that "knows his onions" play. Some genres, even played by the "best", don't snap my cap however. It's easy enough for me to excercise ultimate censorship and turn them off.
Choice is a wonderful thing.

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## journeybear

> personally,a 100% non-stop Bluegrass show would get a bit tiresome,too much ''all the same sound''. The relief that other music forms brings isn't to be underestimated,& sometime,i've found myself thinking ''I like this stuff'' on being presented with a different form of music. I can't imagine too many folk being disappointed if,in the context of a Bluegrass show,a duo as good as Gillian Welch & David Rawlings came on stage to play & sing.


Yes to all that. I'm sure this is why there is the diversity we have been seeing for a good long while at festivals. Also, offering variety increases the chances people who might not attend if it were strictly bluegrass will be interested in going, and then be introduced to bluegrass and other artists they might not have had the chance to hear otherwise. I think willie's objection is that some of the people in these lineups are a bit too far from bluegrass for his liking. Also, the name of the festivals. As much as one could say, "What's in a name?" it does matter, and could affect some people's decision-making process.




> As long as Bluegrass Festivals stick 'mainly' to Bluegrass & keep their identity,then a variety of 'associated' music should go down well (IMHO).After all,isn't what we do as musicians as much about the instruments we play,as in _what genre of music_ we play them ?. Good musicianship in any genre of music works 'for me' - as long as i like the music. If i don't, i just wait for the next band along,


Good points, and good qualifiers.  :Wink:  I especially like the point about the instruments. When I first started going to bluegrass festivals, one motivation was that I knew I would hear mandolins being played. At the time (mid-80s) that was a pretty rare occurrence. Even if I wasn't crazy about the style of music, I enjoyed hearing the instrument being played well by people who knew how, and I took a lot of cues on how it was done from hearing and seeing that - and applying this learning to how I wanted to play, even if I was playing different types of music.

PS: Just in case anyone is confused about how Gatorade got its name (and if anyone really cares), it was developed by and for the sports programs of the University of Florida, and named for them - the Gators.  :Grin:

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## Timbofood

So, JB if it had been developed by the "other" school it might have been called.......
Wait for it....







Seminole fluid!

Quick, to the corner!

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## Willie Poole

If a festival is going to incorporate a variety of music types then let them put that info in their fliers and maybe change the name to "Bluegrass/country/folk festival" I would still go....I also have heard a lot of different kinds of music that I really enjoyed , I`m just saying that I don`t hold with a promoter calling it bluegrass just to attract more people...I must agree that after three days of listening to bluegrass I don`t even want to play it on the radio on my way home...Now I only got for one day....

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## bassthumper

did'nt BM tell Grisman&Garcia that he'ld teach them bluegrass but then they would have to invent their own style because bluegrass was his??

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## Ivan Kelsall

Willie e-mailed me to tell me that folk at some of the festivals he's attended just want Bluegrass music & no other. I can understand that. If that's what those folk want & are used to getting,then any diversion from Bluegrass isn't going to go down too good.However,in other parts of the US,which let's face it,is one heck of a sized country,Bluegrass music won't be in such demand & other genres of music will literally 'fit the bill' & be acceptable. Over here in the UK where Bluegrass music is pretty well known after so many years,but where we don't have the numbers of Bluegrass bands to fill out a 3 or 4 day festival,then bands etc.from 'associated' forms of music are brought into add some 'difference',which as i mentioned,for me,is a good thing. I've been immersed in Bluegrass music for over 50 years & i listen to it & play it every day - but,i also listen to other forms of music as well. A diet of 100% ,non-stop Bluegrass music wouldn't fulfill my personal musical appetite any more than eating exactly the same food every day would be acceptable - i need variety,& apparently,so do many others,
                                                                                                    Ivan

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## M.Marmot

Now for the sake of argument let's move the focus from the first to the second word from 'Bluegrass' to 'Underground'.

If this programme was called 'Strictly Bluegrass'* then i might say the claimant has a case ... but, but this is not 'Strictly Bluegrass' nor 'Pedantically and Reductively Defined Bluegrass' but it is 'Bluegrass Underground' NOW, I'm just a simple country chicken, but it seems to me that grass, blue or not, grows above ground, so maybe, just maybe, we might find some relevence in this second, overlooked word 'underground'.

Sure, i know, we could take it at face value, afterall, the show takes place in a cave; but, maybe, just maybe, there's something more to this word 'underground' than we are currently considering ...

Now, i'm just a simple poulet du pays, but it seems to me that 'underground' also has some subversive meanings; lets have a look at the dictionary

_
Underground:

2. a group or movement organized secretly to work against an existing regime.

"the French underground"

synonyms:	resistance movement, resistance, illegal opposition_ 

Well now, scratch my grits, a person could almost read this title not simply as Bluegrass being played under the ground, but also, Bluegrass as a subversive undercurrent in other more mainstream musics, or, heavens to betsy, the influence of alternative musicial undercurrents on Bluegrass.

Now, in that light it seems, to me at least, befuddled as i am, that the case could be made that the title and music are matched in brief and content, and that this case should be closed ... so, until the next 'this does not meet my definition of bluegrass' thread - i bid you adieu.

*(by the by; i'm laying claim to the film treatment 'Strictly Bluegrass' right now - a cross between strictly ballroom and 'Alabama Monroe' - contact me hollywood)

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## Willie Poole

Could also be called "Folk Music Underground", that would be closer according to your opinion....

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## allenhopkins

> Could also be called "Folk Music Underground", that would be closer according to your opinion....


Or just _"Music Underground"_ which might make more sense.  Of course, it does come from Tennessee, and while that's not the "Blue Grass State," it's close.

Willie does have a point, that using the word "bluegrass" creates some expectations, which the musical lineup often doesn't meet.  We diverged a bit into the endless argument over what is or isn't bluegrass, which is interminable, unsolvable, and sometimes a bit nasty.  As I said above, it deteriorates into "What I *like* is bluegrass, what I *don't like* isn't."  The height (or depths) of subjectivism.

Perhaps the moral of the story is that if you use the word "bluegrass," be prepared for some scrutiny.  I don't like the term "Bluegrass Police," but...

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## M.Marmot

> Could also be called "Folk Music Underground", that would be closer according to your opinion....


yes, quite.

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## Timbofood

"Cave tunes"

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## allenhopkins

And *Cave-*_at auditor,_ right?

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## journeybear

Just a couple more things before I lose all interest in the subject:

1) I noticed while tuning in the latest episode (Texas singer-songwriter, no MC or BGC), I noticed the voice-over announcer say the following as part of the show's introductory remarks: "A little bit bluegrass, a little bit underground." With that disclaimer, they're off the hook. Can't be held accountable at all.

2) They really ought to get Nick Cave And The Bad Seeds on the show, just once.

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## Paul Merlo

[complaint post] 
I still can't believe not one PBS station in MI carries this show. Does anybody have a way to stream it to my house on the intra-webs? I especially want to see the Greensky Bluegrass / Leftover Salmon / Railroad Earth episode coming up because I love those bands.  I am lucky enough to have a ticket to the Paul Hoffman Trio at the Detroit Hopcat this Friday tho - so that should be awesome.

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## Timbofood

Paul, I have seen it, I believe WGVU used used to run it. I saw Doyle Lawson on it once. Maybe they got wind of this thread and didn't want the controversy visited on them. :Laughing: 
Have fun at the Hopcat show.

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## Willie Poole

The last show I saw here in Florida was with Micheal Martin Murphy, he did play the banjo and sang one bluegrass song but the rest was more country, he is a good entertainer and I enjoyed the show except for the tinny mandolin, he has some nice recordings also....

   See, I am not just a bluegrasser....

    Willie

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## journeybear

Right. That's the second to last show of the season for me, coming up this Saturday on Miami PBS. Next is Chip Taylor (wrote "Wild Thing," "Angel of the Morning," and "Try (Just a Little Bit Harder)," covered very well by Janis Joplin). No idea what they'll air after that - more from this season, or previous seasons, or something else altogether. I hope they go back to hour-long shows. They tend to be better.

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## journeybear

So, just watched the show with Michael Martin Murphey. Pretty good all around. I see what willie was saying about the tone of the mandolin - could have been a little fuller. Couldn't make out its brand. Going out on a limb here, but judging by the way the guy playing it spells his name, Ryan Murphey, he's Michael's son. It got featured a good amount, and it was really nice to hear the riff from "Wildfire" played on a mandolin. Some decent fiddling, too. All in all, there were a few numbers that were upbeat enough to be taken for bluegrass, even a slow one that was in the ballpark. Not saying it *was* bluegrass, but there was enough there for bluegrass fans to like. In case that matters ...  :Whistling:

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## stevedenver

last time I looked, this was the mandolin café

and OP is clear that he has his opinion and others may feel differently.

when I see anything remotely 'roots' or 'americana', barefeet, long hair, tamborines etc, I see the glass as half full.  There are lots of folks that have little exposure.  there is plenty of prime time exposure of pop industrial mass market stuff.  if this is a softened exposure, making music a little bit more palatable, intriguing, friendly, to someone unaccustomed to BG, who only loves Beyoncé or DJ Snake, etc., its great.

Sam Bush said on an NPR interview regarding some history on Telluride that when they first played Telluride, on the east coast his band , Newgrass Revival, was considered rock and roll, and on the west coast, considered bluegrass, when in fact, it was incorporating some contemporary songs into the BG genre, with BG instrumentation and harmonies. 

Glad we didn't throw that baby out with the bathwater.

I am thankful that, due to so many members, I have broadened my understanding of not only the different genres of mandolin, but also the wonderful variations and styles, melds and creativity.  

And, from a western guy, thanks to John Hartford and so many other brilliant players i have seen , I have learned that bluegrass isn't only played by folks that were extras in Deliverance............

descends soap box, heads to coffee pot........

----------

allenhopkins, 

Timbofood

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## Willie Poole

Steve, In a town here near DC called Bethesda there was a pub called The Red Fox Inn that always featured some hardcore bluegrass bands, Country Gentlemen, Cliff Waldron and The Seldom Scene, I was usually in the audience most every week and they brought on the NGR and what a shock, an electric bass, which we had never considered in bluegrass and songs that were taken right from the top listings of rock and roll of that era...Needless to say they were not very popular on that first appearance although they were real good talented pickers, it was the material that they presented that sort of turned everyone off...I did stay for the whole three hours because I really thought the management would only book in true bluegrass bands and I waited to see and hear some traditional bluegrass, I went back and seen them a few more times and tried to keep an open mind about what they were trying to prove, I never did see the place over crowded when they played but we all know that they were a popular band out west as you say, I suppose that they were the turning point to what some call bluegrass today....I understand that there is room for more types of bands out there but I hate to see traditional bluegrass being pushed away like traditional country got pushed away some years ago...I just drove up to Md. from Florida and never did find any true country music on my radio, what a shame that it has been lost....Just my opinion and I don`t mean to step on any ones toes...I am just telling my age I suppose....

      Willie

----------

stevedenver

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## Bob A

I can't say I know much about bluegrass, but I take Willie's point, and whatever anyone may think about innovation, I can understand how the desire to make one's mark on one's music can have unintended and perhaps distressing consequences.

It's all very well to modify what you play to fit your personality, or your audience, especially if it's how you earn your bread. But if you get too far away from the rootstock, what grows out might have value, but it will have lost contact with its origin. If the original stuff is lost, ultimately the branches will wither, or at best grow into something unrecognisable.

The core of a musical tradition formed from close-knit groups of musicians, playing the music they heard their families play, in a setting where there was little outside influence, is in some danger of being lost. The cultural milieu which formed it has been deeply modified by ubiquitous modern media. This affords some cross-pollination, which is a good thing, but it loses the part that comes from the way it was first formed and carried on in the traditional setting.

Of course, a lot of the cultures of mankind have been permanently altered, and to a large extent destroyed, by the giant homogenizing beast that is making us, more and more, a monoculture. Ways of living are being abandoned and forgotten. This will become problematic if anything should destabilise the system that sustains us all. 

All this might seem far afield from Willie's complaint, but of course it is not; we are in a time of rapid and incredibly extensive change, and much that is valuable may be lost.

And speaking personally, I find the specter of a modern pseudo-bluegrass band of musicians going shoeless on television to be insulting. 

Hang in there, Willie, you're old and in the way, but some things are worth slowing down for. Catch a look before it's gone, people, and don't run the man down.

----------


## Ole Joe Clark

"Hang in there, Willie, you're old and in the way, but some things are worth slowing down for. Catch a look before it's gone, people, and don't run the man down". 

Willie may be old, like a lot of us on this forum, but he is not in the way. Apologies are in order.

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## journeybear

Nah. That;s just a bit of good-natured ribbing. Ain't no part of nothing.

----------


## Bob A

Making a point. First off, Willie's no spring chicken; second, old folks' viewpoints are frequently dismissed as old-fashioned nostalgic claptrap, even though they aren't; third, didn't Grisman and Garcia have a CD with this title? 

Some things have a deeper resonance for people with deeper memories and experience. Of course, if it did in fact hurt Willie's feelings, I'd apologise for that; that's not the way it was meant, at all.

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## allenhopkins

There are couple songs entitled _Old and In the Way;_ this is a decent version of the Charlie Poole song:



Another one attributed to David Grisman, and recorded by the band of the same name, the Grisman/Clements/Garcia/Rowan collaboration _Old and In the Way_:



So the phrase "old and in the way" has kicked around old-time and bluegrass music for nearly a century now, and it probably preceded that, as the Poole song is credited to "P J Downing and L J Billings," and is probably late-19th-century sentimental.

As an old person myself, I try to stay _out_ of the way...

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## Willie Poole

Ironic Allen since Charlie Poole is a distant relative of mine, great great uncle I believe...

   Bob A. you sound as if you know me, true?

   Willie

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allenhopkins

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## Bob A

> Ironic Allen since Charlie Poole is a distant relative of mine, great great uncle I believe...
> 
>    Bob A. you sound as if you know me, true?
> 
>    Willie


We've exchanged words here now and then; I've been absent from the board for a couple years, just came back.

Nice to see you're still around.

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## stevedenver

well, imho, with the advent of recording, theres little chance of traditional music being abandoned or forgotten. to the contrary, most tradionalists as well as progressive bg musos have utilized these sources. 

and, the earth and most of its cultures do progress.  even gallileo eouldnt be persecuted today.  nothing stays the same, but, history isnt lost as a result.

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## Timbofood

I'm usually in the way!
I don't see a slight get there. 
That Charlie Poole number is one I have enjoyed for a LONG time, since before I was old and in the way. :Wink: 
Nice Washburn there too Allen, I have recently become caretaker to one of similar design. Have had it for about a year and not had enough time to get back into the old timey swing of it, maybe this summer on the patio, not so loud as to annoy the neighbors.....too much.

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## allenhopkins

> ...Nice Washburn there too Allen, I have recently become caretaker to one of similar design. Have had it for about a year and not had enough time to get back into the old timey swing of it, maybe this summer on the patio, not so loud as to annoy the neighbors.....too much.


Well, I'm not the player on the vid; just found it on YouTube.  I have the Poole version on Hank Sapoznik's boxed set of Poole and his "sources," _You Ain't Talkin' To Me._  Think I first heard it by Highwoods String Band in the '70's, but maybe not.

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## Timbofood

I first heard it sung by Pete Humphreys and J.P. Jenks as the "Happy Days Show" probably in about 1974.
Pete is now playing with "The Lonesome Moonlight Trio" sings as well as ever! 
JP had a Washburn too!
I remember the Highwoods version, what a fun band they were!

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