# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  Gibson "The Virginians" H-4 ?

## mandotool

Some of you will recall this H-4 surfacing on the big auction site this past november.
It left a long list of in unanswered questions....I'm wondering if any of us here at the cafe dug up any info or if there was any precedent for a custom job like this?
any comments from the new owner would also be welcome..
more photos can be found  at.http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...253D&viewitem=

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## Mike Black

Thought that I'd add some of the "Item Description"

Here we have a very neat instrument with a bit of uncovered history.  The instrument is a circa 1924-35 Gibson H-4 mandola, no serial number on the label.  On the label is typed the name "Bill Haislip".  Haislip's name is also written on the outside of the case and on a label on the outside of the case.  I'm not sure how Mr. Haislip got his name on the label but its there.  Also on the instrument in stenciled paint is the word "The Virginians".  From what I could find the Virginians were a jazz band in the 1920's and 1930's. 

The instrument is in very nice condition and appears to be all original including finish and hardware with the exception of the tailpiece cover, pickguard, and the custom truss rod cover.  The truss rod cover appears to be silver and is engraved, "To Bill from Madeline 12-25-26".

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## EdHanrahan

> It left a long list of in unanswered questions....


I guess so!!  Didn't see the original post, but these anomalies jump out at me:

1) Riser block w/ binding is obvious on the treble side but not apparent on the bass side.
2) Neck joins body at the 10th or 11th fret, based on interpretation of the riser block, above.
(Or might these features be common on mandolas?)

3) Strung w/ mandolin strings, or at least an unwound 2nd course, being D where mandolin would be A.
4) Saddle is installed backward for normal mandola usage (w/ 3 lower pairs wound, high A needing shorter compensation).
5) Saddle is wrong for this string set regardless of _how_ it faces!

Looking forward to the more expert opinions!

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## nearandfar

Thank you for starting this thread--I am the new owner of this mandola and have also been wondering about the precedent of an individual's name in lieu of a serial number on a Gibson instrument.
--My welcome surprise with this instrument when it arrived was that it has a virzi (#10078).  The FON is 11093A which is listed on the archive as the FON for 76274 and 76289, two H4 mandolas which also have virzis.
--I have restrung this instrument with mandola strings (yes, as shown in the eBay picture it had been set up with mandolin strings) and placed the saddle properly, and am pleased to report that the playability and tone are as exceptional as one would hope for in such an instrument.

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## Pete Martin

What a cool instrument!!

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## mandotool

Congratulations on a H-4 well got..and a Virzi to boot...
The FON and Serial Numbers you provided place this H-4 prior to the March 31,1924 Batch of signed Loars...yet the inscription indicates that it may have been special ordered  or perhaps went back to the factory? and then presented as a christmas gift Dec.25,1926
Quote from the listing..."The truss rod cover appears to be silver and is engraved, "To Bill from Madeline 12-25-26"
Any evidence of a prior label under the "Bill Haislip" label indicating it may have gone back to the factory?
a whole bunch of ??? but one thing that is very clear...Madeline was quite a woman...

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## NVG

I don't  know if this adds anything but I have H-4, #76284 that also has a Virzi.

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## John Gass

This has to be one of the coolest vintage Gibson's I've seen. How about some more photos?

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## Bernie Daniel

Would you guess that the label removed altered and then re-glued?  Because it is not centered?  Maybe its an optical illusion? 

If it is misplaced you could justify removing it to center it and then hopefully get the serial number underneath -- if that was of importance to you.

I think that the bridge base piece is wrong too.  Looks to narrow for a mandola bridge.

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## Nat

As per the front page, it's back:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161046256207

Same pictures as before, seller has zero feedback.  Scam?  Nearandfar, are you the seller?

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## Scott Tichenor

I'll hold judgement for now but after a few minutes of searching I'm starting to get uncomfortable about this listing. Words appear to be plucked from a site called vintagemandolin.net which is new to me.

http://vintagemandolin.net/vintage-c...re-flamed/4204

But to be fair they're also contained within this thread. Appears that individual that posted as owner is still active so will await to hear from them.

EDIT: I want to be careful here. Not saying it's a bogus eBay ad because honestly I don't know, but I've removed it from the Cafe home page, Twitter, Facebook and Google+. The registration of that domain (vintagemandolin.net) appears to originate out of Panama. Possible, yes. Probable?

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## f5loar

If that ebay ad is a scam it's the best one I've ever seen.  If the scammers are getting this good we all in trouble in buying anything from ebay.  Deserves further investigation by Scott.

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## mrmando

FWIW, Vintagemandolin.net appears to be an aggregator site, running bots that make automatic copies of online ads containing the words "vintage mandolin." Not sure what the point is, except maybe to make a little dough off the Google ads. So whether the site copied the ad or the ad copied the site is a bit of a chicken-and-egg conundrum. Possibly the site copied the old ad and the new ad copied the site. 

When we have the owner saying he's on the West Coast, has restrung the instrument with mandola strings, and has discovered that it contains a Virzi, it's suspicious that the new ad professes that the instrument is in Chicago, reuses the old photos with mandolin strings, and makes no mention of the Virzi.

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Jim Garber

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## nearandfar

Yes, the eBay listing on this mandola, which remains in my posession, is a scam.  Great detective work, Scott and others, and thanks for letting me know about the eBay posting.  Sorry, eBay bidders bidding on this mandola, but this instrument is not up for sale.  I have notified eBay and expect (hope) they will end this listing shortly.  Happy Fathers Day all.

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## John McCoy

It's been removed.

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## mrmando

Gosh, Greg. First your D'Angelico and now this. The curse of owning an interesting instrument.

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## f5loar

I got the notice that ebay stopped it on their terms which pretty much means it was a scam.  Can anyone tell me what they saw was a scam about it other than the seller never had it to sell?  What were the signs you saw?  I didn't see any.

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## Scott Tichenor

I plucked a long sentence off the eBay auction and put it into Google and came up with this page on vintagemandolin.net. If you click more information on that site it doesn't have any, saying it's expired. I take that to mean they robbed it off eBay, including the pictures, and wanted people to think they owned it and we know where those came from thanks to this discussion. The registration of the domain name points to  Panama. That doesn't make sense. The other search of that long sentence pointed back to this very thread and it's too curious someone just bought it and is now starting it ultra-low on eBay. Too much smoke for me and I concluded things looked too good to be true and yanked it from everywhere I'd posted it.

A quick PM to the guy that said he purchased it originally confirmed it all, but it was someone else above my first post that really made me look twice.

Also, the entire vintagemandolin.net site, there's nothing good going on there. That's essentially robbing information off of other sites and trying to use it to make money in various ways related to monetizing links, a common practice. Don't be surprised if you see items that have appeared on our Classifieds showing up there. Actually, now that I think about it believe we can block their bots easily enough. I'll also assume those folks might be reading this. Fair enough. We like a good challenge and knowing who we're working against. Game on.

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## f5loar

But we (or you) caught this scam from your memory of the mandola already being sold on ebay.  To the new ebayer looking for a Gibson mandola I saw nothing in this last attempt by a scammer to show me or anyone else it was a scam.  If I did not read about here I would have bid on it and likely got it (or not).  So is there anything that you saw on it that would raise the flag just by looking at it?  It did not have information for a BIN outside ebay like most scammers go for.  It had the paypal payment.  I get the feeling if I had asked questions about they would have responded through MyEbay making the communication look real. Everything went through ebay as they picked up on my bid attempt which did go through and ebay notified me of the cancelation since they knew I bid on it through ebay.  So if this scammer is doing legit listing through ebay and only using info. from other sites for an item he does not have this is not good for anyone buying off ebay.  Had this auction gone through, I suspect the seller would demand no PayPal and a wire transfer which of course would raise the flag for me.

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## sgarrity

How about it's a rare item, started with a super cheap price, and the seller has no feedback.  That's good enough for me.

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Gary Hedrick, 

Scott Tichenor

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## Scott Tichenor

The problem here is if someone with the wrong intention gets the text and images of a former auction or listing somewhere and now Google can't get fine same info, a buyer is pretty much helpless. We have similar attempts with the Classifieds but almost always catch those folks before the ad is active (don't ask, we have protection in place).

Remember that same F-4 that pops up several times a month on eBay? Always on accounts that have years of use. That guy is just dumb! I privately call it the most widely viewed Gibson F-4 of all time. This was a real unusual instrument, another dumb thing to do but obviously these people are just looking for categories of pricey products that will sell.

There was nothing in this ad to tip off because the information was all accurate--problem is someone else wrote it for the legitimate sale. Direct copy and paste. This was really a community effort started by Nat. I contacted the owner of the instrument (maybe others did as well) and he confirmed he had possession of it. Otherwise, those bidders were screwed had the owner (and others) not reported it to eBay. I rarely report eBay fraudulent auctions but did this time.

What I didn't like was that site vintagemandolin.net having the listing as well. Still don't know if they're related but I'm certain enough that I had Dan take steps to make things a bit more difficult for them. I don't need items on our Classifieds appearing on eBay with someone else's words and image. Dan provided more info on that site: Panama registration, hosted in Michigan.

Other thing that raised suspicion: low starting bid on an item. Who does that any more? Look at 5,000 items in the Musical Instruments category and 4,500 are just retail sales. Another 400 are ridiculous starting prices. Very few true auctions with low starting prices. New seller, just too much smoke. Had to be a fire there.

EDIT: might be a good thread to start, a sharing of information on how to evaluate whether an eBay auction is legit or not. I have my ways, sure others have theirs.

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## Scott Tichenor

Have a look at this search result: 

I'm not sure how Mr. Haislip got his name on the label but its there.  Also on the instrument in stenciled paint is the word "The Virginians"

Thanks to Mike Black for giving us that description above. So that slapped into Google tells us the instrument has been on eBay at one time thanks to this discussion about it. Then it also shows up on the now removed eBay auction as a search result, and at the bottom of the page you see all of those consecutive bolded words on vintagemandolin.net. Red flag for me. 

I grab what's an unusual consecutive string, usually a long one, plug it into Google and they're typically very good about showing the history of what you're searching on. But that's just one step in many that need to be taken.

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## Gary Hedrick

I remembered the item....hard to forget this one and like was stated above the seller feedback and price along with the earlier listing and I reported it to  Ebay.....

and Scott add the H2 to the list of fraud......it is posted on Ebay a lot also.....

lovely folks

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## FL Dawg

If it's any consolation to the current owner, I saw the pictures in the "auction" and was very excited to do some bidding! What an amazing mandola given as a Christmas gift in 1926, maybe from wife to husband. I love the band name painted on the front... maybe we'll get some more (watermarked) photos to drool over.

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