# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  scottish tunes question

## Werner Jaekel

These days I am  concentrating on transcribing tunes from Allen Fergusen posted  on soundcloud and youtube. There is such a great number of beautiful tunes. I listen to them, slow them down with audacity and then write them down. So far I managed Hectors Return, Highlanders Farewell, Rolling Hills of Western Ross,John MacCalls Farewell to the Scottish Horse, Cabar Feidh, Donald Cameron, Maggie Cameron, Redcastle Reel, Barn Owls of Brahan, Black Dog across the Firth, Stills of Ferintosh. Ord Hill is still a puzzle to me. But not for long. 

Between listening and writing I noticed something puzzling me. In Donald Cameron (P/M H. MacKay) i.e. 1st bar the staff shows an f  ( 1st on e-sting) but  the f sharp ( 2nd on e-string)is played. The key signature is in C. Same with c (3rd a-string) where c sharp ( 4th on a string) is played, 5th bar. Is this shift due to a particular scale or why is it ? I noticed these shifts before with different tunes, contradicting the given key signature.

https://soundcloud.com/allanferg/donald-cameron

Outing myself as a layman in music theory , but ok. With your kind help I may become a bit wiser. :Smile: 

(Some of the titles mentioned are compositions and copyright by Allen Ferguson. So I will be reluctant to present my notes without his permission.)

One more : Is there any free original piping sheetmusic for Maggie Cameron ? For the twiddly bits.

Thank you.

Werner

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## AP8221

Pipe music doesn't show the accidental (black on a piano) notes in the A mix scale which pipes play as the c sharp and f sharp are the notes sounded by the correct fingering on the chanter.

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Werner Jaekel

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## Niall Anderson

For Maggie Cameron, this may work
http://www.folktunefinder.com/tune/17600/

Otherwise search for the tune name at folktunefinder.com, and look for the first version that shows pipe ornamentation. That one is taken from the Scots Guards collection, which is a standard of sorts. I'm not sure that the image is displaying correctly, though - you might want to try the ABC somewhere else or download abc explorer...

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Clicker, 

Werner Jaekel

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## Werner Jaekel

Niall Anderson 
Thank you. Found Maggie Cameron. Very useful link.

AP8221, thank you.
Could you elaborate on this point, please ? The staff does not show any key signature, no flats, no sharps. So it should be in C major.  But it is not.  Trying to learn from chanters by ear is very difficult, because of the key they use. It does not match with my mandolin.  Allen Ferguson ist playing these shifts and it sounds more correct than following the staff. I looked up Hal Leonards Mandolin Scale Finder where C Mix is confirming the original staff, with C being the root ( 3rd on A ). What is this about the fingering on the chanter ?  To your knowledge, which key is used for Donald Cameron piping ? I found the notation on the internet. Maybe it is not correct.

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## Niall Anderson

Werner, 

The tradition in publishing music for the Highland Bagpipe has been to omit key signatures, because the pipe chanter is essentially limited to nine (and only nine) notes - G natural, A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G natural, A from low to high. Thus pipers talk about playing a C, when actually they are playing a C# (leaving aside the issue that the big pipes transpose up to Bb or higher - sorry, lots of complications here). Pipers don't really need to worry about key signatures because they are stuck in one place! So, if what you see is a piece of music intended for pipers, it should be interpreted as having two sharps (C and F), and played appropriately. That's what you will usually hear if you are listening to a fiddler playing a pipe tune or someone playing bellows-blown pipes (smallpipes or border pipes, which are usually pitched in concert A - thus the sounds match the notes).

Again apologies for all this - the piping community does its own thing, and until recently hasn't really expected non-pipers to be trying to play the music, I think!

Hope that helps. Good luck, and do ask if there's anything else I can help with (feel free to message me if you prefer).

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Leigh Coates, 

Werner Jaekel

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## John Kelly

Niall has explained the situation very well here, Werner.  The bagpipe music, if you are working from that, will show all the embellishments a piper might play in a tune, and many of those are unique to the pipes.  Remember that a piper will always have a note playing (plus the A bass and tenor drones) as a result of the way the instrument is made - a big bag full of air is pumping that air down the drones and chanter all the time and so the note cannot be cut off the way a brass player or others can do.  The piper uses the embellishments to compensate in some ways as well as to add to the tune.  Many of the young pipers at the cutting edge of modern piping are exploring ways of bending notes and adding other embellishments - and in many cases they are not especially welcomed by many traditionalists, but that is as it always has been.  Have a listen to anything by Fred Morrison for examples of modern piping.

When we play from pipe scores we just know to sharpen the C and F and keep the G natural.  When a piper plays Scottish tunes not written for the pipes he will by default play all the G notes as naturals, though we will be playing G sharps where the key is in A major.

Yhe abc files you have got from me ( I think it is you!) are from pipe scores but modified by me or others to suit our strings.
As Niall says, feel free to mail us and we might be able to help you further.

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Niall Anderson, 

Werner Jaekel

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## Werner Jaekel

At last ! Got it ! 

Thank you very much, Niall and John.  Now I understand what puzzled me for a long time. You two explained it very well. 

The reason why I am concentrating on Allen Fergusons music is the way he is maintaining the "scottishness" and the impression of the pipe's character in his fiddle interpretation, and the way he is using embellishment and twiddly bits ( love this word), incorporating even his own wherever he sees fit to do so. This is the way I want to do it on the mandolin.

By concentrating at slow speed on the nitty gritty and writing down each note I am learning alot 

He told me about an interesting page http://www.pipetunes.ca/. 

Yes, John, thank you for the abc files.

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## Werner Jaekel

one more question : the chanter's key does not match the mandolins'. Try to learn from the pipes by ear is rather difficult, it never sounds right. How should I set the capo on the octav mandolin gdae to follow the pipes ? Following Niall's explanation it should be G, but it is still sounding queer. Or is it the poor quality digitilisation ?

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## Jacob

Perhaps this may help. *The Pitch and Scale of the Great Highland Bagpipe*
"The precise frequencies of the notes on the chanter do not match those of a piano, guitar, or standard Western wind instruments."

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Werner Jaekel

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## Bertram Henze

I guess the highland pipes, being supposed to play alone or among other highland pipes, can afford to sport just intonation. This is a set of intervals based on overtones, i.e. rational ratios of frequencies (e.g. 3/2, 5/4 etc.) against one base note. Such an instrument is not good at playing together with a just-intonated instrument of a different base note or an instrument of equal temperament tuning (such as the piano or our fretted instruments).

There have been bands with mixed instrumentation who had a piper (Tannahill Weavers, Kentigern come to mind), but I guess a piper can tweak a tone if it is too far off the general equal-tempered environment.

There's a lot of guessing I am doing here...  :Grin:

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Werner Jaekel

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## Ronny

As Niall said, the bagpipe transpose to Bb, so the scale is :
Bb C D Eb F G A Bb, with a low Bb...
But now the A frequency isn't 440Hz, but it tend to be around 450 Hz (last summer, when I played at the Festival Interceltique de Lorient for the piping contest, pipes were around 448Hz to ensure stability of the sound).

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Werner Jaekel

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## Dagger Gordon

Remember also that there are different types of Scottish pipes.

The main ones you might hear in pipe bands are usually called Highland pipes, or big pipes, or The Great Highland Bagpipe. These need to be blown by the mouth.

However there has been a revival in recent years of bellows-blown pipes. As far as I know the fingering is exactly the same.

The big pipes are tuned somewhere around Bb, but this may not always be exactly the case. If the piper know he needs to play with other instruments he may try to get them tuned exactly, but if he is playing on his own he doesn't really need to worry about it.
If that is the case, you could put a capo on the first fret and play the tunes as if they were in A and D rather than Bb or Eb.
The various types of bellows pipes - Border pipes, Scottish small pipes etc - are more user friendly for playing with instruments like the accordion as they are usually tuned to A and are not so loud.

If you were playing a pipe tune in the key of A, you would refer to it as being in A although strictly speaking it might be played in Bb.

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Niall Anderson, 

Werner Jaekel

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## Niall Anderson

> one more question : the chanter's key does not match the mandolins'. Try to learn from the pipes by ear is rather difficult, it never sounds right. How should I set the capo on the octav mandolin gdae to follow the pipes ? Following Niall's explanation it should be G, but it is still sounding queer. Or is it the poor quality digitilisation ?


As Dagger said, capo'ing at first fret should get you more or less there, but the individual set of pipes you are listening to may be tuned slightly sharp of Bb (see comments from others regarding this issue). I guess you then have to sharpen the tuning of each individual string so that you bring the whole octave mandolin up to the pitch of the pipes. To get a sense of where the pipes are, see if you can match your A course once capo'ed (starting with GDAE at standard pitch) to the drones, then set the rest of your strings so your instrument is in tune. That's about the best you can manage (and should be close enough for most purposes).

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Bernie Daniel, 

Werner Jaekel

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## Niall Anderson

The other thing to mention is that the pipe scale is really based on the low A to high A octave (based on the written notation), with a "leading note" of low G natural below that. The drones therefore tune to that key note, A, and the pipes "work" harmonically around that. Thus, the most common keys/ modes for pipe tunes as written work out as A (Mixolydian mode = Major scale with G natural instead of G#) and D Ionian (= standard Major scale).

Not sure if that's useful additional information... Too much?

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Werner Jaekel

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## Werner Jaekel

so much information in one thread, and exactly what I wanted to know. No, the information is not too much. With all these details I get the picture and it is all adding up. 

There are a few examples on youtube, but rarely using the Great Highland Bagpipe, rather the Uilleann pipes, Northumbrian or Scottish Small Pipes , like in "The High Drive". 

I noticed in massed piping competitions there is one person going around checking each instrument's intonation. So there must be a way to influence the pitch within a certain range, like Dagger said" to get them tunes exactly". And soloists probably choose the pitch which they prefer, anything from 450 to 480 Hz. 

I might be the discrepancy in pitch and scale to "equal temperament" what makes the pipes so powerful to me, giving me the goosebumps each time when I hear them playing. Small wonder they led the way into battle.

"Pipe music does not require this ability to modulate to different keys. The nine notes available on the chanter are fixed, the chanter melody is played against the unchanging tone of the drones, and traditional pipe music does not involve harmony-playing between chanters. Thus, we are able to trade in harmonic flexibility for much enhanced purity of tuning. "http://publish.uwo.ca/~emacphe3/pipes/acoustics/pipescale.html

Yet these massed pipebands sound so clear and precise like one instrument.

Now I also understand the limited range of notes used in notation for pipes. And how the composition is successfully compensating for this, and, as John said, "a big bag full of air is pumping that air down the drones and chanter all the time and so the note cannot be cut off the way a brass player or others can do. The piper uses the embellishments to compensate in some ways as well as to add to the tune."

I am grateful for this insight in scottish music, finding it even more interesting now. 

So from now on I will not have to use the rubber so much but put in the correct note straight away. I know now what to look out for.

Thank you.

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## John Kelly

Put a capo at the first fret, Werner, as Dagger et al have said, and play your chords as you'd do if un-capoed - that sounds really obscure!  When you watch any of the pipe bands tuning nowadays there is usually one of the band members going around with an electronic tuner getting the drones into tune and pitch.  The top bands, in fact I'd guess most of the bands in the top 2 or three grades, will have matching chanters precision-turned to ensure they are all producing the same sound, then the drones will be brought into line to suite the chanters, this being done by sliding the drones in their mounts to adjust the pitch - a bit like a trumpet player can slide part of the trumpet to adjust its pitch.
Now this ia what I call a thread!  :Cool:

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Bernie Daniel, 

Werner Jaekel

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## Werner Jaekel

still digging ...... :Coffee: 

http://qanda.themacleods.net/qanda/skmqa019.htm
Quote:
"What musical key does the bagpipe play in?

This is a very confusing point for many people. It's sad to say that many amateur musicians (read "most pipers"!) do not know the difference between the tuning pitch and the key. Terrible mistakes can result from this misunderstanding. *It's generally only an issue when bagpipers try to play with guitars, organs, orchestras or other bands.*

I know of pipers who've told orchestras that they'd be happy to play Amazing Grace in B-flat with the orchestra.  :Smile: .................. This can lead to very embarrassing situations and can potentially ruin a musical program. Please read on to find out why this DOESN'T WORK.

For the benefit of all, it must be known that the key of the instrument is not necessarily the pitch to which it is tuned. :Disbelief: 

The low A on the modern chanter of great highland bagpipe (and the drones) are commonly tuned to above concert B flat, which is 466.16 Hz. With the application of some tape and a bit of adjustment of the reeds, the instrument can be adjusted such that low A on the chanter (and the drones) vibrate at 466.16 Hz. This is a concert B-flat tuning of the instrument, but it is not necessarily the key.

(Please note that most bagpipes today tune at 476 to 480 Hz!  This is roughly halfway between B-flat and B.  Setting up a concert B-flat bagpipe can be challenging.  Setting up a concert A pitch instrument is difficult.).............."

"adjusts the tuning (with tape, sealing way, dowels, *baling wire* and other stuff)" :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Smile: 

also like this one http://bagpipejourney.com/

Now I look for book with some interesting bagpipe scores, preferrably original versions by Donald Cameron etc

To me Allen Ferguson's  "Maggie Cameron" is a good example to transcribe a bagpipe tune successfully, maintaining the character with the potential of the chromatic fiddle.
Another very good example is Dagger Gordons "Braes of Castlegrant" on the mandolin. Or "MacLean of Pennycross" again by Allen. And, and, and......and folks on Mandolin Cafe,of course....

Back to  :Mandosmiley:  now and Maggie Cameron with Allen backing

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## Werner Jaekel

Hi John, we were posting simultaneously, it seems... 

and baling wire :Laughing: 

The pitch seems to be the point. But all I want to do is to learn bagpipe tunes by ear and to write them down, adding my own ideas in another script. 

This morning I did Maggie Cameron from the score, but thought that this score might not be the original version as composed by Donald Cameron. A bit too silmplistic. I miss the B part as played in mid versions available. 

missing in the score: (from http://www.folktunefinder.com/tune/17600/)
e2 c>e A/A/A c>e | A/A/A c>e A/A/A (3agf |
e2 c>e A/A/A c>e | (3dcB g>B B<dd<f |
e2 c>e A/A/A c>e | A/A/A c>e A/A/A (3agf |

in 

X: 2
T: Maggie Cameron
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: strathspey
K: A Mixolydian
d<f |
e2 c<A c<ec>A | e>cA>c c<ee<f |
e2 c<A c<ec>A | d>BG>B B<dd<f |
e2 c<A c<ec>A | e>cA>c e2 (3agf |
e>Ac>A (3cde c>A | d>BG>B B<dd<f ||
e<ac>a e>ac>a | (3gfe a>c c<ee<f |
e<ac>a e>fg>e | (3dcB g>B B<dd<f |
e<ac>a e>ac>a | (3gfe a>c e2 (3efg |
(3agf g>e (3fed e>c | (3dcB g>B B<dd<f ||
*e2 c>e A/A/A c>e | A/A/A c>e A/A/A (3agf |
e2 c>e A/A/A c>e | (3dcB g>B B<dd<f |
e2 c>e A/A/A c>e | A/A/A c>e A/A/A (3agf |*
e>Ac>A (3cde c>A | (3dcB g>B B<dd<f ||
e<aa>g f>ea<b | a>fe>d (3cde e<f |
e<aa>g f>ea>c | (3dcB g>B B<dd<f |
e<aa>g f>ea<b | a>fe>d (3cde (3efg |
(3agf g>e (3fed e>c | (3dcB g>B B<d ||

Allen Ferguson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=occqyEq5CA8 is also omitting this part wich leaves me wondering wich one is the original. Though to me his version is perfect.

This is why I am looking for a book with bagpipe scores. 

Another thing is that I discovered a pattern embellishments are used, as you said, for fading out the notes and to add to the composition.  There is no way around studying scores , really. 

Yes, this is a wonderful thread and I enjoy it. With so many knowledgeable and competent people onboard.  Mandolin Cafe is great.

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## Niall Anderson

Many, many books of pipe tunes out there - try the online shops at the National Piping Centre or College of Piping (both in Glasgow) for some inspiration...

The other thing that may be useful is the following site

http://www.pipetunesearch.org/

which lets you enter a pipe tune name, then tells you which books of tunes it is in - so, for example, it says that Maggie Cameron is in Scots Guards Volume I, but also found in Willie Ross volume 2, Glendaruel Collection, Seumas MacNeill book 1 etc. That would let you track down a printed version by buying an appropriate book. You should note that the same tune can be arranged in different ways in different books, so to find an original you would need a collection by the composer, more than likely! Don't know if Donald Cameron published a collection of his own tunes, but the above shops may reveal this.

Maggie Cameron is a 4 part tune, I think (certainly in Scots Guards) so the problem you found above must be an error in the abc file - a few bars have been lost along the way. Sorry about that!

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Werner Jaekel

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## Werner Jaekel

Thank you, Niall. That's really a whole bunch of books of pipe tunes. 

One of my daughters lives in Edinburgh. I would like her to bring me some pipe tune books when she comes for Christmas. I see you also live in Edinburgh. Can you tell me, please, where to go for the books ? I searched the internet. Scayles seems not no be the place. 
They will probably have a limited selection. How about the Ross' book , vol 1 and 2 ? Or could you name one or two books ?

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## Niall Anderson

Hi again. Bagpipes Galore at 20 Haymarket Terrace is worth a try. At their previous shop on the High Street they had a good selection of books. Their website doesn't list quite as wide a range as I remember, but they may still have more in store. See www.bagpipe.co.uk. Blackwells bookshop on North Bridge might be worth a try too - they have some good music manuscripts and CDs there. I'm probably forgetting other obvious candidates, but will post again when I think of them.

Might be feasible to order from Glasgow but have stuff sent here to Edinburgh in the time available before Christmas?

In terms of books, I'd suggest the Scots Guards collection (I see a third volume has just been released, but can't see what is in it) for classic, common tunes played by bands and individual pipers all over the world. I would also strongly recommend Pipe Major Donald Macleod's collection (6 volumes, plus there is a more recent collected set of 6 in one volume) - loads of brilliant tunes throughout. I don't have any of the Ross books, but you wouldn't go wrong with them - again, they are classics.

If you want tunes in an older, less band-influenced style (but lots of modern compositions) try Allan Macdonald's Moidart Collection (now 2 volumes, go for no.1 to start). Very different, plus pipe settings of some Irish tunes.

Lots to enjoy...

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Werner Jaekel

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## Werner Jaekel

Thank you, Niall.
I have chosen "Seaforth Highlanders"  and the Moidart Collection 1 and 2. Reason is I want new stuff as many as possible. Many of the Scots Guards Books' titles I have in one way or another. And I still can get others later on.

Bagpipes Galore does not have Pipe Major Donald Macleod's collection in stock. 

For any odd ones I get them via  http://www.pipetunes.ca/. Like Marion and Donald. 

Luke Plumb and James Mackintosh present a nice version of that one on " A Splendid Notion". I just can't find the notation 

I don't know, but could it be that notation to be played by large bands is  different from the ones for solopipers ? And would this be reflected in the volumes by the Scots Guards ? A question only, this thought struck my mind while browsing for contents. 




> If you want tunes in an older, less band-influenced style

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## Werner Jaekel

digging deeper.... :Smile: 

come across this page, *about irish music*

http://hspeek.home.xs4all.nl/dadgad/theory.html





> "*Chord Scales" and accompanying Irish dance music.Which Scales Are Relevant ?* 
> I  II III IV V  VI VII I
> *Dmajor*:  D  E  F#  G  A  B  C#  d
> *Gmajor*:  G  A  B   C  D  E  F#  g





> For the Dmajor scale it would result in:
> 
> root: D  E  F# G  A  B  C# 
> 3rd : F# G  A  B  C# D  E
> 5th : A  B  C# D  E  F# G


Dmajor =##  similar to A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A  




> These 8 scales are the basis for Irish folk/dance music, and will lead us to deriving the appropriate chords for providing backup for this type of music. [Note: occasionally you will come across a tune in Amajor, a key which is not listed here. I've heard a theory (I think it was Arty McGlynn who told me this) that these tunes are not originally Irish, but imported from Scotland. The ideas presented here do not apply to such tunes ......................]


*My question. * 

_How much is scottish and irish music notation in general influenced by the scales of the  pipes, irish = Uilleann pipes, scottish various bagpipes ?_ 

*why would a scale Amajor be more related to Scotland ?*



> A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A ? If the G were G#, then this would be an A Major scale


*Is it because the the Big Highland ?
*
The first pipes in Ireland were like th e scottish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uilleann_Pipes and in *D*

Uileann= D, E♭, E, F♯, G, A, B, C, C♯, D' (also called "back D")though being fully chromatic commonly played in D.

*If therer are only 2 scales relevant in irish music, how about scottish ? And have the pipes anything to do with this ?*

This post is a bit confusing, to me also. Sorry. But maybe some person is out there who understands what I would like to know ? It it not purely theoretical. 

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14684  :Grin:

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## Niall Anderson

> Like Marion and Donald. 
> 
> Luke Plumb and James Mackintosh present a nice version of that one on " A Splendid Notion". I just can't find the notation 
> 
> I don't know, but could it be that notation to be played by large bands is  different from the ones for solopipers ? And would this be reflected in the volumes by the Scots Guards ? A question only, this thought struck my mind while browsing for contents.


Looks like Marion and Donald is in the Seaforth collection, so that is taken care of... 

Do you mean notation or repertoire in the above? I'm not terribly sure what bands do in terms of arrangements (never played in one) - they may simplify some elements to make it easier for the band to play together. The pipe major has the responsibility for arranging their sets, I think, so that might happen. Solo players may well change ornamentation a lot to add variety and show off technique, so perhaps not that unlike other instruments.

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Werner Jaekel

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## Niall Anderson

> *My question. * 
> 
> _How much is scottish and irish music notation in general influenced by the scales of the  pipes, irish = Uilleann pipes, scottish various bagpipes ?_ 
> 
> *why would a scale Amajor be more related to Scotland ?*
> 
> 
> *Is it because the the Big Highland ?
> *
> ...


I think there is probably a PhD thesis or two in answering these questions, but my (unresearched) view would be that Scottish repertoire has of course a big representation  of pipe tunes, and because of how those are notated (see discussion above), that means a big influence of the A mixolydian mode. Of course, lots of pipe tunes are in D also, which is a great key for fiddle, so that's extremely common. Straight A major is great for fiddle (or mandolin) too, because of the AE top strings, so it's probably a combination of both these factors for A being common in Scottish music.

D and G are the common home keys for Uilleann pipes and tin whistle, thus that has a similar influence for Irish music (there are probably similar issues with Uilleanns with respect to transposing, given that older chanters were often in Bb or C, and many people still prefer the sound of those pitches and play them...). It's not really correct to say that these are the only 2 scales relevant to Irish music, more that these are probabaly the most common.

For more mandolin content in this thread, can I recommend the Scottish band Pipedown, whose line up is big pipes/ smallpipes, mandolin, guitar and percussion. They've got 2 very nice CDs out, and the chanters (big and small) played on the CD are both in concert Bb!

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Werner Jaekel

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## Werner Jaekel

just spoke to my daughter ringing from the the Bagpipes Galore shop. They have the Pipe Major Donald Macleod's collection in stock. 

Spoke to the shop owner (?)on the phone, and he recommended one of them to me. A very nice and helpful person. He was even lilting into the phone for me to demonstrate some tunes from the Pipe Major Donald Macleod's collection.  :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile: 

That would never happen in Germany  :Crying: .  

She will also bring "Pipedown" cds.




> Do you mean notation or repertoire in the above? I'm not terribly sure what bands do in terms of arrangements (never played in one) - *they may simplify some elements to make it easier for the band to play together.* The pipe major has the responsibility for arranging their sets, I think, so that might happen. *Solo players may well change ornamentation a lot to add variety and show off technique*, so perhaps not that unlike other instruments.


Would this reflect in some volumes, like the  Scots Guards'? 

I meant in notation. The reason why I resort to tune books now is that I am getting tired of simplyfied abc and tabs with many details missing. I want to learn from the real thing. I noticed that when I was working on the Donald Cameron notation. 

I would be more interested in notation for soloplayers. 

reading http://hspeek.home.xs4all.nl/dadgad/theory.html  I wondered if one could apply this to all celtic. And that maybe the celtic music tradition is deriving from mainly the scales and possibilities of the pipes. Common denominator being the scales of the Uilleann and the scottish bagpipes. Both share a common tradition to some point

In other words, is all orginal celtic folk music also influenced by these scales ? 

So maybe in 90 % one gets around with a limited number of scales and chords, both scottish and irish, mainly in D and G, and A 

That makes it easier to learn by ear , to write them down and to add to them.

In this thread I did learn alot. It is like reaching a new level. Very interesting.

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## Niall Anderson

[QUOTE=Werner]
just spoke to my daughter ringing from the the Bagpipes Galore shop. They have the Pipe Major Donald Macleod's collection in stock. 

Spoke to the shop owner (?)on the phone, and he recommended one of them to me. A very nice and helpful person. He was even lilting into the phone for me to demonstrate some tunes from the Pipe Major Donald Macleod's collection.  :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile: 
[/QUOTE ]

Brilliant - love it! Really glad that worked out.


[QUOTE=Werner]
Would this reflect in some volumes, like the  Scots Guards'? 
[/QUOTE ]

Possibly, but I've never seen SG arrangements as being particularly simple... There's probably another discussion to be had here about what an "authentic" arrangement is for a piece of traditional music - with many of the tunes in these collections, you are getting one person's view of how the tune might be played, so it's worth no more nor less than that. The exception (in some sense) is with something like the Donald Macleod book - there you are getting the composer's view of his own tune (although the collection includes some other people's tunes and some trad. as well), so in that case perhaps you could claim that that is authentic.



[QUOTE=Werner]
I would be more interested in notation for soloplayers. 
[/QUOTE ]

Not sure if there is such a thing - the variations I was talking about are probably improvised/ personalised, so not necessarily written down anywhere. That said, things like the Allan Macdonald book are perhaps more geared towards solo playing (that is, Allan probably doesn't compose for bands as such, but more for tunes he would play in recitals etc). Similarly, modern composers like Gordon Duncan, Fred Morrison, etc would have an eye to their solo work when writing, although GD was of course also writing for the Vale of Atholl band, so my thesis breaks down a bit there!

In terms of influences in Irish and Scottish music, pipes will certainly have played a role, but the harp and fiddle musn't be neglected - they must have played a huge (bigger?) role. So, in short, it's complicated...

One other comment I meant to make earlier and forgot - if you are planning to play these tunes on octave mandolin, I wouldn't necessarily think you should  try to duplicate pipe ornamentation. The grace note movements are very specific to the shape of the chanter and the way that you play a chanter - things that are easy to do there become difficult and rather unimpressive sounding on a fretboard. It's about extracting the essence of the tune, not every last detail... Perhaps Dagger can advise here, as someone with long expereince of transferring pipe tunes to mandolin?

----------

Werner Jaekel

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## JeffD

> There's probably another discussion to be had here about what an "authentic" arrangement is for a piece of traditional music - with many of the tunes in these collections, you are getting one person's view of how the tune might be played, so it's worth no more nor less than that.


To generalize, this is often the case with any collection of tunes. 





> It's about extracting the essence of the tune, not every last detail.


Also, generalizing from pipe tunes to all of traditional music including fiddle tunes, the above is the entire job.  I have had to use judgement if I hadn't heard the tune before, to separate out the transcriber's or editor's ornamentation from what is essential to the tune. I can tell I cut too deep by identifying what, if changed, would render it a different tune.

If I have a recording, or in fact several recordings from several artists, I like to listen and whistle or hum the tune until I get it without the recording. Then I test my hummed version against the other recording and see if what I have can still be called, "the same tune".  If it can, then thats what I keep.

Of course over time as I play it my own ornaments and preferences creep in. But I see that as OK (if tasteful), as long as I put in the effort to start with a clean tune.

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Werner Jaekel

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## John Kelly

The thread continues to fascinate!  Niall's point about not trying to duplicate exactly the ornamentations on the pipe score is a very valid one - those ornamentations are very much for the chanter and the way it is played and fingered.  Look at hammer-ons and pull-offs in your ornamentations on the mandolin or octave - A favourite of mine is to hammer from the F# on the E string to the high A, and from the open A to the C# or D.
Loved your anecdote of the Edinburgh shopkeeper in Bagpipes Galore.  :Smile:   Remember that this was how pipe music was originally passed on, using sung sounds to represent the tunes and their ornamentations.  The language was called Cantarach and I have heard pipe tutors teaching a class the rudiments of pibroch by singing to them and having them repeat the sounds, each of which represents a particular note or phrase/ornamentation on the pipes.  It is a fascinating experience listening to this.
Here is a link to a page where you will find a Mary Morrison from Barra singing Mrs MacLeod of Raasay in cantarach.  Sounds positively tribal!  http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/...tcm4554493.asp
Scroll down of the right of the page to find her version among many other versions.

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Werner Jaekel

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## Werner Jaekel

Mostly I use the mandolin. But when I tried to learn by ear from pipes I thought the octav is closer. 

Mary Morrison from Barra singing Mrs MacLeod of Raasay

Love it !  When I was living in Ireland there are these "Singing Pubs". The locals gathered there to drink and make music. Especially in Donegal they were very fit in lilting. Perfect. Very enjoyable. And the porter was gone down in no time..Wished I had never left...

By the way. The man in the shop did a perfect job. One could imagine the pipes... 

There is an example on youtube some playing Maggie Cameron on the guitar   http://youtu.be/V8GkLTnownM. 

Well done, but no longer particularly "scottish"  

This can be done any composition, make it jazzy, bluesy or waltz. 

Allan Ferguson is staying close to the notation but expands on the ornamentation sometimes.  He leaves out passages and elaborates on others. It still sounds as scottish as can be. ( Donals Cameron , beginning of third and fourth staff e c sharp a a *g* a)   This one way to do it, the other like you said, John, with hammer ons and pull offs. 
https://soundcloud.com/allanferg/donald-cameron

Scottish tunes are very distinctiv. I recognise them straight away from irish, for example. Slow or fast. Many of them are so beautiful with an obvoius tempation to take them somewhere else. In popular music this is done quite often, without naming the origin. 

People like from Fleadh Cheoil would hardly improvise on a tune. That's fine. Tradition is very important. 
But once in their kitchen, or loo ( pipes, see youtube), they probably do.




> Also, generalizing from pipe tunes to all of traditional music including fiddle tunes, the above is the entire job. I have had to use judgement if I hadn't heard the tune before, to separate out the transcriber's or editor's ornamentation from what is essential to the tune. I can tell I cut too deep by identifying what, if changed, would render it a different tune.


This requires some experience.  Beside tradition, which should be maintained, that's the fine art in music, I think.

But why should the scales in celtic predominantly be reuduced to G, D and A ?


the harp: nowadays http://www.celticharper.com/tuneharp.html
An example of a diatonic scale would be: C D E F G A B C
An example of a chromatic scale would be: C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C 

scale (1840)
http://www.calumcille.com/modhan/gleusan/1A.html
D E F G A B C D E F G  A B C D ( without levers)

http://www.calumcille.com/




> The Gaelic song tradition in Scotland is very diatonic.  *A strong relationship would have existed between song and the diatonically tuned harp or lyre.*  ................The harper could not change tuning manually while playing.  *evidence for an
> influence on Irish song from chromatic English song.*  However, the harp tunings
> provided by Edward Bunting cater for a mostly diatonic harp tradition and some
> chromaticism only at the octave, eg the F# being sounded only an octave below F
> natural and not a semitone above it.  The Gaelic harp/song tradition in Ireland
> therefore seems to have been strongly diatonic as in Scotland.................. Any harper working with a singer, as per the historical model of harper and reciter, would need to know how to set his instrument so that certain types of tunes, with certain scales and certain melodic ranges, could be fitted on the harp gamut in a position appropriate to the singer's vocal range.  
> .



http://www.celtic-instruments.com/pi...s/history.html
bagpipes arrived in Scotland sometime during the 1300s
Around the 11th century, small triangular harps appeared in Ireland and the Scottish Highlands.

http://www.oldmusicproject.com/occ/tunes.html 
O'Carolan was a harper. Mostly used by him : D, G, C, a few  F, A 




> Bowed instruments appear in numerous European carvings and illustrations dating from around 900 A.D. ....The term 'fiddle' itself is somewhat general; it was originally the term for a twelfth century instrument, which was constructed of flat boards for the top, back and sides. This original 'fiddle' developed into the litre da braccio, the most significant predecessor of the violin. The term was later adopted for any member of the classical strings family, but has become particularly associated with the violin in the context of traditional music in Europe and America.
> 
> The earliest examples of a bowed instrument and of a bow itself date from the eleventh century and were excavated in Dublin in the eighteenth century. The bow is the earliest example of a medieval bow in Europe. According to "The Companion to Irish Traditional Music" ( Vallely 1999, pg 123) The earliest reference to the fiddle in Ireland is from a seventh century account of the Fair of Carman by O'Curry:


So, fiddle, harp or bagpipes, they are around for a very long time. The harp was used before the pipes. 1100 vs 1300, the fiddle maybe even before that. ( last year I bought a Sarangi in Nepal. Looks like something which could have been used around that time) 

But which one was more widely used in public, by composers and by common people ? Which one had more influence ? On predominant scales?

Maybe their use resulted in different scales for different genres.. Being either Chromatic or diatonic ,  basically the fiddle vs the pipes . But why then is folkmusic predominatly in D,G and Amajor for scottish I still not clear to me.

Anyway, it is getting rather theoretical. But an interesting subject.

Maybe that the irish, the scottish or the english simply fancy  certain scales , because of tradition . 

New idea: maybe these scales are more easily handled in cantarach and lilting or portaireacht bhéil  , pitch wise. No problem for Mary Morrison from Barra.

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## Niall Anderson

Thinking more about this question of the predominant keys in Scottish and Irish music, I'm convinced that the explanation is the tuning of the fiddle : GDAE gives you the first and fifth of the keys G, D, A, so these sound particularly strong. Maybe someone else knows of some academic work on this, but I'm sure that has major influence.

In terms of getting tunes to sound Scottish, how about this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI7zS...e_gdata_player

Scottish guitarist Tony MacManus, playing the Seagull by Donald Macleod in DAEAAE tuning (capo'ed to bring it into GHB pitch). I think he does a marvellous job of imitating a pipe band using drone notes and guitar (not pipe) ornamentation. Lots of triplets reproducing the effects of birls. Enjoy!

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Werner Jaekel

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## Pasha Alden

Hi there 

Being from Scotish heritage I find this interesting and am so pleased that someone is working on tunes for the mandolin from those beautiful but cold lands.  Sorry am even a greater novice than you are with music theory, but the mandolin will help me pick it up.  Played some violin, piano and recorder before, even Oeboe.

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## Werner Jaekel

Hi  Vannillamandolin, 

yes, further up north Scotland is even colder than Germany. But beautiful indeed. My wife has some relatives in South Africa by the name of Garbade. 

So you are playing Oboe. There are some speculations on the internet that the Oboe is a forerunner to the bagpipes. Actually, of all the wind instruments the Oboe is my favourite, after the bagpipes. Very mellow, soft and warm. Used to the mandolin I wonder what it is like to play the fiddle. Is it any easier or is the fingerboard very different ? Must try a shop. 

My fascination for irish and scottish is as old as I can remember. Must be in the genes. :Laughing: 
And there is plenty of material and information on the internet, even a forum like this one. But not so much in scottish pipe music. 

I never bothered about music theory. With the abc, tab ,tef and mid I got around fine. But inevitably there comes a point when simply playing from a sheet with tabs is getting boring and when curiosity is taking over. I started playing late in life. So if I want to get somewhere I have to catch up. I dig into the theory only as much as needed to understand what I am working on. And it is essential if one wants to expand on a theme to be familiar with modal scayles, the circle, harmonies etc. 




> Sorry am even a greater novice than you are with music theory


But you play the violin, piano ,recorder and Oeboe. That's what one calls a kind understatement, I guess. :Smile: 

What genre of  music are you into ?

Hi Niall and John, 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI7zS...e_gdata_player

that's fantastic. 

 So far I did not manage to find a way for the embellishments without messing up the tune. Maybe a question of placing emphasis and gravity on certain notes, and speed of course. What is meant for the chanters does not work on the mandolin. Not without alot of practise, anyway.

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## PseudoCelt

> ...why should the scales in Celtic predominantly be reduced to G, D and A?
> 
> Maybe their use resulted in different scales for different genres.. Being either chromatic or diatonic,  basically the fiddle vs the pipes . But why then is folkmusic predominantly in D, G and Amajor for scottish I still not clear to me.
> 
> Maybe that the irish, the scottish or the english simply fancy certain scales, because of tradition.


*Disclaimer:*  I'm not an expert, but...

I think the common scales in Scottish/Irish music derive partly from the limitations of the non-chromatic instruments used to play the music: pipes, flute, whistle, etc.  A whistle or flute in D can easily play tunes in certain D major-related modes (D ionian, E dorian, A mix, B aeolian) and G major-related modes (G ionian, A dorian, D mixolydian).  These seven modal scales cover a large proportion of Irish and Scottish tunes.

The standardisation of instruments playing modes specifically based around G, D and A major, rather than other keys, could have been influenced by the keys easily played in first position on the fiddle.

I think the harp mostly occupied a separate tradition, and was never really a folk instrument in the sense of being used by the common people.  However, a simple harp would have the same limitations in terms of available modes as the other non-chromatic instruments.

Patrick

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Werner Jaekel

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## John Kelly

Hi Werner,
tried to go to the link in your last mail quote:

"Hi Niall and John, 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI7zS...e_gdata_player

that's fantastic."  Unfortunately I got a "This video does not exist" message from the site.
has it been removed, or is there a fault in the address?

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## Niall Anderson

John, 

I think that' s the URL of Tony MacManus I posted upthread. That link still works, although the forum has shortened it slightly. Presumably quoting it doesn't include the full URL behind the shortened version, so it doesnt work second time round.

Niall

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## Werner Jaekel

Hi John, yes, your link does not work. 

"The Seagull" taught by Tony McManus " title 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI7zS...e_gdata_player

this one is working for me. 
But the share link is this one 

http://youtu.be/dI7zSSRTw0c

Try embedding 

http://<iframe width="420" height="3...reen></iframe>




> <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dI7zSSRTw0c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Doing something wrong with embedding


Hi  PseudoCelt,

D ionian = d e fsharp g a b csharp =1 2 3 4 5 6 7 formula

E dorian = e fsharp g a b csharp d= 1 2 flat3 4 5 6 flat7

A mix= a b csharp d e fsharp g =1 2 3 4 5 6 flat7

B aeolian natural minor = b csharp d e fsharp g a =1 2 flat3 4 5 flat6 flat7 


G ionian = g a b c d e fsharp

A dorian = a b c d e fsharp g

D mix=d e fsharp g a b c

source mandolin scale finder Hal Leonard

checking the fingerboard 1st position fits, but same with many  others

diatonic  five whole steps and two half steps for each octave

You may have a point there. 

Easily distinguishable irish or/and scottish demand a certain scale and tempo. People in the countryside learning music via tradition did what has always been done, using the scale handed down to them in order to sound familiar. ( Mary Morrison from Barra.) 

I do not believe many played anything other than 1st position. Other instruments were the pipes, flute, whistle, and most important, the voice. 

I think you are right with the harp.  O'Carolan earned his bread and bed composing and singing for whealthy people.

I suppose something like Fleadh Cheoil exists for a long time. I was reading that O'Carolan furiously objected to some other musician producing something unfamiliar. 

Is there something in Scotland like Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann ?

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## Werner Jaekel

The High Drive 

http://youtu.be/d-EmeFp-TA0

http://randscullard.com/CircleOfFifths/UserGuide.htm

mixolodian  minor *G*(v) *D*(ii) *A* (vi) 
major Bflat (VII) F(IV)  C (I)
diminished E (iii °)

my conlusion:  I still don't know why in celtic predominatly C D and A is used. This forum was very helpful and I learned alot. 

But I know now what to look out for with the bagpipe tune books I ordered. 

Thanks anyway. And I will the try the capo 1st fret. 

 :Smile:  :Mandosmiley:  :Smile:

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## Bernie Daniel

Werner thanks for starting this string and thanks to Niall, John, Dagger and others who provided the outline for a good book on how to play pipe tunes on the mandolin!  :Smile:    From my view this is one of the best threads ever --if fact I'm thinking of copying these posts into a Word file for reference later.

Pipers are clearly in a world of their own!

Werner exactly what is your final product as you work through this tunes -- a score in standard notation or are you putting it in to ABC?

Also exactly how are you working this?  I gather you slow the tune down and then do you have good enough pitch to write out the right note directly or what?  

Anyway it's a great project you've started there.  Maybe the end product is "Werner Jaekel's Pipe tune for the Mandolin" book!  :Smile:

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Werner Jaekel

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## Werner Jaekel

:Smile: 

Hi Bernie, are you seroius ? You are very kind. Thank you. 

What you are implying is more a job for the persons mentioned, John Kelly, Dagger Gordon, Niall Anderson and others.

They have the knowledge I am looking for.

Yes, pipers are a world of their own. And also the notation. 

Chance given I would ask a piper to play a key tone and use the chromatic tuner to adapt to the pitch until I reach the exact tone.

The motivs for this thread are firstly my interest in celtic, especially scottish. Why scottish I don't know. It simply appeals to me. Maybe it is the rhythm, the scales used, the harmonies. I believe the mandolin especially lends itself to play this kind of music. Particularly to the scotch snap. 

An example is " John MacColl's Farewell to the Scottish Horse". Not the one on the internet but by Allan. 
https://soundcloud.com/allanferg/joh...arewell-to-the
Plenty of snapping here and great fun to play

My knowledge in music theory is limited, learning as I go. Reading standard notation I can instantly assign the correct mandolins' fret, but playing from standard notation at faster speeds would require more practise. So I take some paper and write down the tabs. I am working on abc theory to be able to convert later

With Allan Ferguson's tunes, for example, I slow them down with Audacity and write them down as tabs. Same with other tunes where I have only mp3 available ( Dagger Gordon's Wades Welcome, Ardross Hall, Luke PLumb's Marion and Donald....) This is a very useful hearing training for following any melody. 

interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombard_rhythm

The Lombard rhythm or Scotch snap is a syncopated musical rhythm in which a short, accented note is followed by a longer one. This reverses the pattern normally associated with dotted notes or notes inégales, in which the longer value precedes the shorter.
The "Scotch snap" of Scotland also feature syncopation.

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## Bernie Daniel

Well maybe I got carried away a little and perhaps I should have qualified it a little and said it was *one of the best strings ever* especially on Scottish bagpipe music!! :Laughing:  

But it still was an excellent string because it answered a lot of questions that I wondered about as well and it answered some questions that I had not even thought of but should have!! 

I also seem to find Scottish music most interesting of the Celtic genera although I should be a bit careful as my wife all her family here came from the Emerald Isle. 

I think it is pretty great that you can transcribe directly from mp3 to tab.  I've never tried to do that I just slow it down until I can learn by ear what note to play -- I suppose writing it down might actually be more efficient?

Anyway is a great thread and I do play to copy the individual posts into a Word doc and then edit and organize the information about pipes and the music for future reference.

And thanks a lot for the tip on the "Farewell to the Scottish Horse" what a totally delightful tune -- need to learn that one.  The horses gait in the rhythm is the icing on the cake!

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Werner Jaekel

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## Werner Jaekel

Bernie, thanks again. 

If you ever find more information on this topic I would be grateful if you would share it. 

My work is really starting when I receive the books. 

The occasional irish tune might offer some consolation to your family.  :Mandosmiley:  :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile: 

But indeed, they are different. 

And that is another question I would like to know. What makes them different. But I better stop here now.

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## Jock

Great thread Werner 

I think learning to sing the tunes out accurately, no matter how crappy the singing, helps immensely. It's what I do when I'm learning a new tune, as do others that I know. 

When learning by ear, try putting the tune down as an abc directly, TAB won't play it back for you, as far as I'm aware. Having a tune down as an abc first draft allows you to iron out those little inaccuracies on play back. Also teaches you quite a bit about the music, especially how to write out the various ornaments particularly triplets, eg: the difference between (3AAA and AA/A/ being able to hear it is rather handy. Singing all the while of course. 

In abc I've been trying to get to grips with notating pipe 2/4 marches and my approach to have them play back reasonably is double the 2 of the 2/4 so notating as 4/4, but then half the L field 1/16 instead of 1/8. 2/4's should play fine notated this way, in most abc editors.

So, by way of a pre book arrival preview here are a couple of 2/4's. First one is a special tune to me and from PM DM's book 6, the other an old favorite:

X: 1
T: The Hills of Kintail
C: PM Donald MacLeod
M: 2/4
L: 1/16
R: march
K: HP
e2 | A2A>B e>Ae>d | B<AG>B d>ed>B | A2A<B A>Be>f | g>ef>d e2d>B |
A2A>B e>Ae>d | B<AG>B d>ed>B | e>fg>e d>BG>A | A<BA2 A2 :|
B<d | e>aa>g a2e>f | g2e>f g>ed>B | e>aa>g a>ge<a | g>ef>d e2d<d |
[1 e>aa>g a2e>f | g2e>f g>ed>B | e>fg>e d>BG>A | A<BA2 A2 :| [2 e2A>B G2A>B |
B<de>f g>ed>B | e>fg>e d>BG>A | A<BA2 A2 ||
B<d | e>Ae>d e>fg>e | d>BA>B G>Bd>B | e>Ae>d A>Be>f | g>ef>d e2B<d |
e>Ae>d e>fg>e | d>ed>B G>Bd>B | e>fg>e d>BG>A | A<BA2 A2 :| 
g2 | a>ge>f g>ef>d | e>Bd>B G>Bd>B | a>ge<a a>ge>f | g>ef>d e2g2 |
[1 a>ge>f g>ef>d | e>Bd>B G>Bd>B | e>fg>e d>BG>A | A<BA2 A2 :| [2 B<de>d B2A>B |
G>AB>A B2G>B | e>fg>e d>BG>A | A<BA2 A2 || 

X: 2
T: The Clan MacColl
C: ? Cant remember 
M: 2/4
L: 1/16
R: march
K: HP
|: e>d | c2d>B A<Ac<e | a2c>d e2d>c | d2G2 G<GB<e | d>cB>c d2e>d |
c2d>B A<Ac<e | a2c>d e2d>c | B<GB<d c<ef>e | c2A2 A2 :|
|: c>d | e2f>g a2g<e | g2a>g e2d>c | d2G2 G<GB<e | d>cB>c d2c>d |
e2c>A a2g<e | g2a>f e2d>c | B<GB<d c<ef>e | c2A2 A2 :|
|: e>c | A2A>c A<eA>c | c<ac>d e2d>c | B<dc<e B<dG>B | B<gB>c d2e>c |
A2A>c A<eA>c | c<ac>d e2d>c | B<GB<e c<ef>e | c2A2 A2 :|
|: c>d | e>ca>f e>Ac<e | e<ac>d e2d>c | B<dc<e d>GB<d | d<gB>c d2c>d |
[1 e>ca>f e>Ac<e | g2a>f e2d>c | B<GB<d c<ea>e | c2A2 A2 :|
[2 e>cd>B c<Ac>e | g2a>f e2d>c | B<GB<d c<ef>e | c2A2 A2 ||

Here's a couple of abc tutorials I've found useful;

http://www.lesession.co.uk/abc/abc_notation.htm#intro

http://www.lesession.co.uk/abc/abc_notation_part2.htm

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Werner Jaekel

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## Jock

Should also add that most abc editors will allow "HP" (Highland Pipe) in the (key) K: field, if it doesn't work just swap out HP for Amix.

HP, if the editor allows it, is a handy fit all key designation for any highland pipe tune regardless of key.

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## Werner Jaekel

Hi Jock, thank you.




> I think learning to sing the tunes out accurately, no matter how crappy the singing, helps immensely. It's what I do when I'm learning a new tune, as do others that I know.


Yes, also my experience. But unfortunatly there is a divergence between the tone in my mind and what my throat is making of it. I never trained my voice. It is something I always wanted to do. Singing while playing. Many people do, however quietly.

True, whenever I am able to play fluently it is because my mind is slightly ahead, aware of the detail following. 

I am a mad collector of tunes. I have thousands and I like them all, nearly. I should be more disciplined and restrict my repertoire to a smaller number and then I could learn them by heart. So I play from the sheet, nearly any of them.  I open a folder and start playing.

Doodling without any sheet, it is surprising to me how many develop from my mind, hidden in some corner of it.

You are right. Absolutely.




> When learning by ear, try putting the tune down as an abc directly, TAB won't play it back for you, as far as I'm aware. Having a tune down as an abc first draft allows you to iron out those little inaccuracies on play back. Also teaches you quite a bit about the music, especially how to write out the various ornaments particularly triplets, eg: the difference between (3AAA and AA/A/ being able to hear it is rather handy. Singing all the while of course.


The reason why I am putting them down as tab is because I hear a tone, fret it and write it down. It works very fast. Sometimes I listen to a complete line and put it down. Putting it down as abc requires a good ear . This is what I would like to accomplish. This is also why I am into the theory of the abc now. I want to be able to do that. 

The short cold winter days are perfect for this job.

You are right here also, abc says alot more than tabs.

May I ask you, are you practising cantarach ? I would guess that you started very early and grew up with the music from a very young age on ? And all of your family is probably engaged in music ? 




> In abc I've been trying to get to grips with notating pipe 2/4 marches and my approach to have them play back reasonably is double the 2 of the 2/4 so notating as 4/4, but then half the L field 1/16 instead of 1/8. 2/4's should play fine notated this way, in most abc editors.
> 
> So, by way of a pre book arrival preview here are a couple of 2/4's. First one is a special tune to me and from PM DM's book 6, the other an old favorite:


I am really grateful for this. This will serve to me as an example how to do it. 

Do you have anything on youtube or soundcloud ?  

I converted them to mid and tef. Perfect job. I will start to learn them straight away.

Which speed would you use on the mandolin and the pipes resp. ? 




> Should also add that most abc editors will allow "HP" (Highland Pipe) in the (key) K: field, if it doesn't work just swap out HP for Amix.
> 
> HP, if the editor allows it, is a handy fit all key designation for any highland pipe tune regardless of key.


Thank you.

I printed the two and went over them at an even undotted pace, with some gravity and emphasis  in some places. . They are  beautiful.  :Grin:  :Mandosmiley:  :Grin: 

http://www.pipetunes.ca/browseproducts.asp  The Clan MacColl composer John MacColl

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## Niall Anderson

> The High Drive 
> 
> http://youtu.be/d-EmeFp-TA0
> 
> http://randscullard.com/CircleOfFifths/UserGuide.htm
> 
> mixolodian  minor *G*(v) *D*(ii) *A* (vi) 
> major Bflat (VII) F(IV)  C (I)
> diminished E (iii °)
> ...


Werner, 

Just checking in - my wife has just given birth to a little boy, so this is my first quiet moment for a couple of days to browse the forum. 

The closest Scottish equivalent to CCE is the Feis movement - Dagger teaches mandolin and guitar for them. They run classes and teaching weekends mainly for young people, but some adult-related courses too. I met Dagger at an adult Feis 2 years ago like this.  There are also some city-specific organisations that promote music, song and dance - Scots Music Group in Edinbugh, SCAT in Aberdeen, Glasgow Fiddle Workshop, plus a few more.

Loved the bassoon on the High Drive video! Also maybe useful for learning - the pipes being played initially are probably smallpipes in A, and the big set is probably using a border/ reel pipe chanter also in A, so it means you don't have to worry about all the complexities of highland pipe tuning. Havent been able to check the pitch directly - am sitting in the hospital at the moment, with wife and baby asleep for now!

Anyway, ditto to the comments about this being an interesting thread, and hope my contributions have been useful. I started off playing smallpipes a number of years ago, and have only more recently swapped to playing mandolin and cittern, at least in part because they are slightly more compatible with having young children in the house! Good fun to chat about all things pipe-related.

Regards,

Niall

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Werner Jaekel

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## Werner Jaekel

Congratulations !  And best wishes to your new baby boy and the happy mother.  

And thank you for your interesting contributions to this thread. 

Regards

Werner

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## John Kelly

Niall, only know you through this forum, but my best wishes to you, your wife and the newly-born piper/mandolin player!  Can just imagine your next tune - Niall Anderson's Welcome to (add in name here).  I think probably a 2/4 march.

Jock, many thanks for the two great 2/4s you have posted here.  Two more for me to have great pleasure learning.

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## Werner Jaekel

Niall, John,

what a wonderful conclusion for a thread. 

John has expressed it perfectly.

Best wishes. :Smile:

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## kmmando

Hi Werner,
here's my efforts at the lovely 6/8 pipe march by the great John MacColl - there's a recent collection of his tremendous tunes now available. I thought it might be of interest to try these on the mandolin. There's a couple more Scottish sets I'll pop up shortly, Scottish styled tunes, might be of interest, playing's a bit ropey as I haven't played a lot of late. 
regards, Kevin Macleod    Edinburgh

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Tosh Marshall, 

Werner Jaekel

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## kmmando

An example of how I'd attempt to play a big 2/4 march and a pipe reel

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Werner Jaekel

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## kmmando

The Highland Schottishe type tempo - I love playing these, but fail to remember their names.
They are played in a variety of different ways in Scotland, actually, all equally attractive.







finally a couple of contemporary Scottish waltz compositions in the traditional idiom.

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Werner Jaekel

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## kmmando

There's a Sobell here I see,
http://www.acousticmusic.org/Sobell-Mandolin-p-742.html

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## Nigel Gatherer

Hi Kevin. The schottisches are _J F Mackenzie Esq of Garrynahine_ by Pipe Major William Ross and _Captain Horn_.

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Werner Jaekel

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## Werner Jaekel

:Smile:  what a thread...

Whenever I think the forum has lost interest in this thread something grand is coming up. 

So happened with Jock, then a new little Niall, and now it is you, kmmando.  :Smile: 

THANK YOU !!!! Love it.




> http://www.acousticmusic.org/Sobell-Mandolin-p-742.html


The page shows a Sobell but it is not in the sales section.

Well, the Sobell is a special instrument, but it does not play by itself. 

My KM 1000 does not have the full potential I am looking for. For tunes like Hectors Return, Highlanders Farewell, Gloom on my Soul or other slow tunes it lacks sustain and volume. I will go to Brighton in the near future for another.

Would be nice  to have the notation for the 2 Highland Schottisches and the waltzes.   If I had a clue about their titles I could go searching.

When posting I saw Nigels'.  Thank you, Nigel.

I have great interest in this collection by John MacColl. Who is the distributor ? 

May I download these files for my own use ?

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## Werner Jaekel

X: 1
T: J. F. Mackenzie Esq. of Garrynahine
C: Pipe Major W. Ross
R: strathspey
B:
Z: John Chambers <jc:trillian.mit.edu>
N:
M: C
L: 1/8
K: A
A \
| "A"{B}A2 c<B c<e e>f | {g}a>f e>c "D"f>e "E7"(3fga \
| "A"{B}A2 c<B c<e f>e | "D"(3fga "E7"{ef}e>c "A"{B}A2 Aa |
| "A"{B}A2 c<B "F#m"c<e e>f | "D"{g}a>f "A"e>c "Bm"f>e "E7"(3fga \
| "A"{d}c2 e<c "Bm"B>c f>e | "D"(3fga "E7"{ef}e>c "A"{B}A2 AB |]
[|"A"A<a a>e "D"f>a "(E7)"f>e | "A"c<e f>e "D"f<a "(E7)"f>e \
| "A"A<a a>e "D"f<a "(E7)"f>e | "D"(3fga "E7"{ef}e>c "A"{B}A2 A>B |
| "A"A<a a>e "D"f>a "(E7)"f>e | "A"c<e f>e "D"f<a "(E7)"f>e \
| "A"{d}c2 e<c "Bm"B>c f>e | "D"(3fga "E7"{ef}e>c "A"{B}A2 A |]

(This is one piece for learning abc notation. I want to learn this notation and I am thinking about opening a thread somewhere to exchange experience and knowledge. Or does it exist ? )

X: 1
T:Captain Horn
M:C
L:1/8
Q:80
C:Strathspey
S:
K:HP
|: {g}e|
{g}f3/2A/2{gAGAG}A2{g}B/2{d}G3/2{dc}d3/2e/2|
{g}f3/2A/2{gAGAG}A2{g}B/2d3/2{gdG}d3/2e/2|  !
{g}f3/2A/2{gAGAG}A2{g}B/2{d}G3/2{gf}g2|
{g}f/2a3/2{ef}e3/2d/2{g}B/2d3/2{gdG}d:| |:
e|  !
{g}f2{gfg}f3/2d/2{g}f2{g}f/2a3/2|
f2{gfg}f3/2d/2{g}e3/2f/2{ag}a2|
f2{gfg}f3/2d/2{g}e3/2f/2{gf}g3/2e/2|  !
{ag}a3/2f/2{gef}e3/2d/2{g}B/2d3/2{gdG}d:|


http://abcnotation.com/tunePage?a=me...THORN.ABC/0000


*John MacColl tune collection:* 

http://www.hendersongroupltd.com/car...?idproduct=896

Is this the one, or is there another more recent one ?

*And one more question to the experts:

tempo*

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/at...5&d=1328207822

how about scottish tunes ? 

Would you apply same tempi ? 

What is the usual tempo for the bagpipes and which tempo would you apply to the mandolin ?

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## Dagger Gordon

> There's a Sobell here I see,
> http://www.acousticmusic.org/Sobell-Mandolin-p-742.html


I once bought a Gibson mandolin from that shop, actually.

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## Bertram Henze

There's this thread on the Song-a-Week group featuring _Leaving Glenurquhart_ with a rendition and ABC from John Kelly and an attempt of a rendition from myself, plus loads of happy discussion.

P.S. just noticed that Werner is aware of that thread because he posted in it himself.

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Werner Jaekel

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## Werner Jaekel

:Smile: 


> P.S. just noticed that Werner is aware of that thread because he posted in it himself.


Yes, so is any member, including John, quite active there. Leaving Glenurquhart was presented by him. A great tune, one of my favourites. 

Different thread, different intentions.

Again,my intention in this thread is to understand what is special and different about *scottish* music, and what to be aware of when playing *scottish*.

It started with a transciption and a divergence in notation and execution. From there we came to modal scales and the ones used in scottish music. 

And my wish to delve into scottish standard notation to find more about that. 

Problems with learning by ear were brought up.

The question aroused why the keys D G A are used in celtic predominatly. And if instruments used in celtic and their history have anything to do with this. 

Examples were presented, in abc and performance. 

Some comments made me aware that I should become familiar with abc notation to be able to share any tunes from the pipe tune books. For myself I would just scribble a bit, which I am doing presently. 

There are some specialities in abc notation with scottish.

Kevin's videos are a perfect example how play scottish mandolin. 

I never expected so much attention for this thread. 

It shows that there is a certain demand for special threads like this one. 

We have a very big celtic music scene in Europe with a wonderful tradition. I like and play any genre. I also like all mando music from across the big pond. Very much so. 

But , honestly, I wished the celtic section would be a bit more activ here on this great forum. Especially the scottish.They have alot to offer.  :Smile: 

(We all know how strong and powerful it proved to be in history and time, with it's revival. Same happened in Ireland. )

Go and visit the Edinburgh Tatoo. Completely booked, with masses flooding the city, from all over the world. Not only within the castle, but all over the place performances happening. 

I suppose Scot's intentions in creating a Forum: Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk are pointing this way. To give each genre some space.

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## kmmando

Hi Werner, here's the second waltz that you were interested in.
Hope this is of use - its named for my family crofthouse in Polbain, in Coigach, Lochbroom in the NW Highlands of Scotland.

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## kmmando

Thanks for the tune names Nigel, I can't recall most of the names of tunes I know these days! Hundreds of tunes with The Occasionals and I recall about 5 names - the rest is done by nods winks grunts and spontaneous reaction to what Freeland is playing next! No actual names though!
Trust all goes well with you. Kevin

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## donaidh

Here's a pdf I had of the 2/4 March Kevin is playing in the video, in standard notation and mandolin tab. 

_John MacColl's March To Kilbowie Cottage by P/M Willie Lawrie._

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## Jock

Thanks Werner  :Redface:  glad you like those, as to speed, Kevin about nails it there with his video, 2/4's are often played together or more readily as the march (or marches) of the march strathspey & reel sets beloved of pipers.

I'm not a piper so my singing of tunes isn't as disciplined as proper piping cantarach, so not really. But I've been around enough piping to have been exposed to quite a bit of it over the years. Singing of tunes helps to communicate them, over the phone or in person so similar to cantarach but more individual. Quite normal to be talking about a tune and have someone ask you to sing a bit of it. I suppose similar to irish diddling but borrowing more from cantarach.   

Then there's a huge body of gaelic song, such as "port a beul", mouth music, a significant part of the scots repertoire, the melodies of which, can be found preserved in the various song styles and traditions.

Here's one I learned by singing;

(Dots borrowed from the session.org)

X: 1
T: A Bhriogais Uallach
R: three-two
M: 3/2
L: 1/8
K: HP
|:AAAB A2AB AGd2|deee c2Bc dcB2|deee A2AB AGd2|eAA2 (G2G)A BAA2:|
|:aeee edde eeg2|gaaa f2ef gfe2|deAB GAAA Bde2|gAA2 (G2G)A BdA2):|

Here's a link to the battlefield bands youtube release of a medley arranged around this song. The first part of this tune is traditional and I seem to remember that the Portree piping Doctor, Dr Angus MacDonald, a lochaber man originally, added the second. He also recorded it on his first solo album, A’ Sireadh Spors, great small tunes piping album  :Wink: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj5Q_I6YAFU

Different key and they don't repeat the parts in the singing of this as a port a beul, plus when Mike kicks in with the pipes they repeat only the first part, still using the vocal as the guide, by singing the melody along with the vocal it's quite an easy job to square the two and adapt the abc accordingly. 

I learned it from Dr Angus's album initially but didn't really do much with it, now I simply imagine the song when I play it and try and phrase it as though I were singing it, so learned through singing. Woks great on the mandolin but more common for me to be playing the banjo at the moment. Works with reels and a pal and I were using it after a couple of 3/4 marches to liven things up a little.

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## kmmando

Where in the NW are you John? Anywhere near Coigach?

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## Bertram Henze

> I can't recall most of the names of tunes I know these days!


I can relate. It is only just starting for me, but growing fast. I think it is a case of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle: the tune and its name can't be known within the same universe...

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## Jock

I'm in south west ross Kevin.

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## kmmando

Perhaps our paths will cross up north sometime for a tune, you never know! regards, Kevin

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## John Kelly

Hi all, and especially Werner, here is an upload to my SoundCloud page of a fine 6/8 march, "Mrs Lily Christie", by PM Donald Shaw Ramsay.  Played on my octave, Werner, with some basic embellishments and acoustic guitar backing.  Hope it somehow manages to sound Scottish!

http://snd.sc/V3O9KX

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## kmmando

Nice one John, sounds richt Scottish to me! Well done! Its interesting that the longer scale length instruments are, to my mind, better suited to pipe music playing, as the sustain length on each note is greater than on the mandolin, and can be controlled to emphasise the dotted crochet/quaver that predominates in piping, creating the cut and snap of piping. Super, and one of your own custom made instruments as well - very impressive!
regards, Kevin

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## Sgriob

Very nice, Kevin. Sounds just like my Sobell mandola's wee brother. Matchless instruments.

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## kmmando

This one was made in 1983, £310! When was the mandola made? Cheers, Kevin

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## Sgriob

> This one was made in 1983, £310! When was the mandola made? Cheers, Kevin


Around 1998, Kevin,* if I remember aright. About $1500, but don't quote me!  I convinced Mrs. Sgriob by telling her it was a savings because I'd never need to by another instrument for the rest of my life. I lied, of course, but nothing I've bought since matches the Sobell. It  may be me, but the sound has improved with age. 

I am still pining for one of Stefan's big body mandolins. I can't think of any other reason for buying a raffle ticket. 

(*Surely not Kevin MacLeod of Perthshire, expert fiddler and internationally famous wind-power expert?)

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## kmmando

No, a different Kevin Macleod, and its been a while since I scraped a bow on a fiddle!
The sobells are great. My brother in law has a fine late 70's mandolin withe the rings cedar and big body. Sounds wonderful.
Cheers, kevin

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## Werner Jaekel

Thank you for generously sharing and answering my questions, everybody.. This is a great forum. Where would I be without it.

Also to Kevin for sharing the videos via email.  

http://vimeo.com/53160635#
Kevin, a bit enviously I followed this jig. I noticed this similar kind of playing to Luke Plumbs’. 

I opened a thread http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...68#post1116768

I would very much appreciate if  you could spare some time and contribute.

Is a jig in Scotland played any differently  as in Ireland ?  

Interesting threads by the way:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...n-session-2012

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...uke-Plumb-2007

Jocks information about  "port a beul" and cantarach brought some memory to my mind, some LP vinyl from the 60 or 70 ties. In my mind I am hearing two voices singing. I know this is the tune but I can’t remember who it was.
Maybe the Johnstons In “ The Jacobites by Name”. Not sure. I just thought of  Dolores Keane, browsed the net and found this http://prostopleer.com/tracks/4922729eTTj  Dolores Keane & John Faulkner "Mouth Music (Lilting)". Going through so many LP vinyls is a tedious job. Many I have digitalised, including 5hand Reel, one of my alltime favourites.

I received the tune books and cds. 
The Seaforth Highlanders
PM Donald MacLoed's Collection Book 1
The Moidart Collection One and Two
And two Pipedown cds. 

The man from the Bagpipes Galore shop marked these tunes in PM Donald MacLeod's collection. 
Colin's Cattle
Thick lies the mist on yonder hill   
Mrs Mac Donald of Uig              
Lady Lever Park
John Macmillan of Barra.
Glasgow Police Pipers

Does anone know this tune ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyOoeQkCElo

Good thing is that there are many reference tunes on http://www.pipetunes.ca/  in mp3. 

John, this sounds very scottish to me. Not surprisingly … "my maternal granny used to sing to me - she was a Cameron of Locheil "...( from soundcloud)…..) You have a nice collection on soundcloud by now. Very good.
Where do you get all these interesting tunes from ? May I ask which tune books you are using ? Do you know the books mentioned? Do you have a favourite in any of those ?

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## donaidh

The tune on your Youtube clip is "The Trip To Modera" by the late, great Scottish piper Gordon Duncan. I've attached a pdf that I had tabbed out. Hope it's legible enough.

Gordon Duncan wrote so many fantastic tunes, The Famous Baravan, The Soup Dragon, Jig O' Beer, The Sleeping Tune, Break Yer Bass Drone, Andy Renwick's Ferret, The Ramnee Ceilidh, The High Drive, Pipe Major Sandy Spence - to name but nine!

Gordon tragically died in 2005 at the age of 41.

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## kmmando

Scottish jigs versus Irish, well I suppose Irish tunes tend to have come from their requirement for a certain type of dance, which is probably distinct from Scottish jigs, and of course pipe jigs are composed for the pipes and narrower pipe scale.

My main view of Scottish versus Irish is that there are a lot more ornaments in Irish playing, its smoother, speedier, and doesn't have the dotted crochet/quaver emphasis that exists ,to a degree in Scottish playing, and we tend to have a wider tempo range, with the martial piping rhythms. However, many modern musicians in Scotland are playing styles and repertoires that to my ears are light years away from the music played here 30 years ago, such is progression. Its almost a trad jazz, in some ways. If I can get round to it I'll try and do a close up film of the jig patterns I attempt when I play a jig, if that could be of use? I'm afraid there's no getting away from just practicing the dud-dud pattern and all its variants within a specific tune ....
cheers
Kevin

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## kmmando

Hi Werner,
Here's 3 close ups, as best I could do, with a slowish version of three tunes, one a pipe jig the other two Irish jigs.

I would normally play these a wee bit swifter, and I probably wouldn't play them exactly the same way every time as its fun to augment the basic tunes, but I hope they give some impression of the Down Up Down repetitive picking pattern and variations as dictated by the actual tune. 

Observing Alec Finn over the years seems to have influenced me in that I would sometimes use an up-stroke on the top E towards the A, as a form of emphasis at the end of a phrase. He enunciates this perfectly in his accompaniment, and its part of his unique signature style. By the way we may record in 2013, don't know if anyone's interested? Might give me an idea how many cds to press, 20 or 30 perhaps!?

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## kmmando

As good as it gets in my book!

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Loretta Callahan

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## ptritz

Kevin - I'd be interested in a CD of your playing.  I guess that means press at least 31.

Pete

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## kmmando

One anyway! The old ones are still around somewhere on Greentrax, though Polbain to Oranmore with Alec Finn is only on download now ....

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## John Kelly

Make that 32, Kevin.  Interesting grip you use on your pick - you seem to hold it in your thumb and second finger and it certainly works well for you!
Have a great 2013.

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## kmmando

Yes, its a bit odd, but I basically got hold of a plectrum in 1976 and held it comfortably for me - its not dissimilar to how I hold a pen actually. It may have had something to do with how I was taught to bow from the age of 4 by a highly skilled classical violin tutor, Harry Ogilvie of Dundee. But its not great for tremolo work, unlike the standard taught thumb and first finger hold, but the three point contact helps with my style of playing perhaps. 32 and counting - should I order up that yacht yet? 
And a grand 2013 with lots of tunes and new instruments from your most capable hands John. Slainte.

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## doon can

> By the way we may record in 2013, don't know if anyone's interested? Might give me an idea how many cds to press, 20 or 30 perhaps!?


Hopefully you´ll press a couple of extra discs for Sweden Kevin! Always have appreciated your CDs, great tunes and pure playing. If you ever fancy doing a masterclass over here I know of a few folk who´d be interested. 

Duncan

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## kmmando

Thank you Duncan, that's grand to hear. The idea of a trip to Sweden sounds fun, but the finances might be a problem, unlees you've a pal with a helicopter? Who knows, it could happen, as long as the arilines didn't smash my mandolin!
cheers
Kevin

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## Bertram Henze

> ...It may have had something to do with how I was taught to bow from the age of 4 by a highly skilled classical violin tutor


An ex violin student myself, I can say that totally makes sense and corresponds to the depth of things learned at that age (i.e. next to impossible to unlearn). From that view, I am glad I started violin at the age of 10 (and stopped at 19) so I was able to finally get around to the orthodox power grip around 45!  :Redface: 

It is amazing, however, how obviously well that grip is working for you.

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## kmmando

Best not to think about the pick, just the notes and music you want to make well.
Cheers Bertram, and all the best for 2013

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## Bertram Henze

That's right, Kevin, Thinking is a Music Hazard.

Have a happy New Year (the new one or the old one, whichever works for you).

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## Werner Jaekel

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ction-training

Thank you, Kevin. I will study your videos in detail, and I am sure to get there now. Sometime. :Smile:

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## Nate the Deaf Piper

Greetings.  Lots of good information on this topic.

As a GHB piper, I'd say that's not too bad for playing, but I would probably slow it down and focus on cuts and holds.  It sounds a bit too smooth for me, like Irish or classical mandolin playing.  Pipe playing is about the cuts and holds.  The general rule as explained to me is that if you think you held it too long, you are probably just about there.

Nate the Deaf Piper




> Hi Werner,
> here's my efforts at the lovely 6/8 pipe march by the great John MacColl - there's a recent collection of his tremendous tunes now available. I thought it might be of interest to try these on the mandolin. There's a couple more Scottish sets I'll pop up shortly, Scottish styled tunes, might be of interest, playing's a bit ropey as I haven't played a lot of late. 
> regards, Kevin Macleod    Edinburgh

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