# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  The search continues...

## Demetrius

I'm having the hardest time choosing what move to make next.
What will it take to decide and pull the trigger on one of them? 
It's down to these anyway. "For now"

1. Brentrup M23v 2003 mint
2. Wiens F-5 2013 mint
3. Apitius F 2015 mint
4. Givens F-5 1992 w/truss rod excellent condition 
5. Givens F-5 1989  great condition
But doesn't have a truss rod so Im iffy.

This is where it's at, unless someone comes along with something
interesting that they're selling

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lflngpicker

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## DataNick

You're shopping in tall cotton there buddy!

Best regards on your purchase decision; let us know what you choose...

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Demetrius, 

lflngpicker

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## Mark Wilson

Nice list.  Have you played them or are you buying online?

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Demetrius

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## lenf12

The first 3 builders are all still alive so I vote for the '92 Givens F-5 w/trussrod. Bob isn't making them anymore...

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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Demetrius

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## UsuallyPickin

I have a Givens A w/o a truss rod and it is holding up well. I have always had a curiosity about Apitius instruments. I have not played one but those I have heard being played were excellent. R/

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Demetrius

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## MikeEdgerton

> The first 3 builders are all still alive so I vote for the '92 Givens F-5 w/trussrod. Bob isn't making them anymore...
> 
> Len B.
> Clearwater, FL


True but I don't think Hans is building mandolins anymore.

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Demetrius

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## Demetrius

Hi Mark, 
    Ive played Apitius mandolins before and have loved every one, I have not played this 
specific one but its a very recent one and I trust the improvments that Oliver has stated 
really are improvements. These are all Varnish models now...

    I haven't played a Givens mandolin that I wasn't in love with yet. but Ive never played one of his F's also
the truss rod thing would give me a peace of mind.

The Wiens, is stunning and Im going to admit that I am basing a lot of my thoughts on this mandolin based on looks.
I feel like shallow Hal. How can something that good looking not sound good? Im hoping this is true lol

    I have played the Brentrup a couple of times, and it was breathtakingly beautiful.. 
the sound was nice but I thought it was weak, like something was stopping it from doing
what Hans meant it to do. I noticed it had a pretty thick top from what I could sight from
the edge of the f holes. I wanted to investigate further, but I didn't wanna go sticking my 
fingers in someone else's mandolin. A major factor is the mandolin is from 2003 and I don't 
think its had any play in the past 7 years, and before that it was rarely touch since it had been
ordered. I really feel this thing is asleep and never woke up to begin with. in fact I feel it still 
believes it is a tree. Anyhow as I was heading out the seller walked up to and showed me the 
pack of strings a local luthier had put on it two years before. It was a set of j-62 D'addario mando
strings. I then realized that these strings were not enough to drive the never woken up top on this 
mando. I don't know, to be honest I have no experience with these strings but I really have a feeling 
this may have a little bit to do with whats going on. thoughts?

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## pops1

I left for 10 days and took my backup mandolin while my Brentrup sat home. When I got back it was dead, but some playing brought it back. They are heavier than other mandolins, but I can have a very low action and hit it hard and it doesn't flinch. They can be driven hard and smile. I have played a couple of Givens lately, Collings, Weber, Gibson Loar, and many others, but nothing matches the complexity of my Brentrup. Not as loud as some, loud enough, but oh the sound. When I got it it had not been played for a year and then not much before that. After much playing this mandolin is all I could ask for. Some strings won't be as nice and the intonation needs to be spot on on mine, maybe more so than other mandolins. I wish I could be in your position of choice. DO NOT ENVY THY NEIGHBORS MANDOLIN. Have fun choosing and enjoy your purchase.

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Demetrius

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## Demetrius

My brothers Brentrup and and my work partners Brentrup are both two of the most reaponsuve instruments ever.

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## Demetrius

The biggest regret out of any instrument I've ever parted with was a Brentrup F5-c.. 
I kid you not, I think about that mandolin everyday.

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## MikeEdgerton

My mandolin biggest regret was not buying a Brentrup snakehead that Hans offered me. Instead I bought my wife a car.

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Demetrius

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## Bill13

Which one sounds the best?

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Demetrius

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## mrmando

> Which one sounds the best?


Probably the Brentrup, unless the car's had a tuneup recently.

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DataNick, 

Demetrius, 

LadysSolo, 

red7flag

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## Jeff Mando

Brentrup, it is!

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Demetrius

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## Demetrius

If only it were that easy...

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Demetrius -_ "...like something was stopping it from doing what Hans meant it to do. I noticed it had a pretty thick top..."_
It sounds pretty much the way my Czech. built Lebeda sounded when i first got it. It's a slightly larger than standard size for a mandolin & i suspect that the top could have been made thinner ( but i'm no luthier - so that's guess). I tried different string brands / gauges on it with no real improvement until i found the DR MD11 strings,which i now use on it. They are a very powerful string, as strong & punchy as you'd ever need with no loss of tone either. They might just be the answer to the Brentrup's ''sonic deficiency''.
   They're the same gauges as EJ74's ( old J74's) & as easy to play on,but they're a totally different animal, :Disbelief: 
                                                                                                                                                Ivan :Chicken:

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Demetrius

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## pops1

Demetrius, I have been making up string sets from GHS white bronze guitar strings. I use standard 11,16,26, but because of a smaller core winding and lack of a 40 I use a 42. These strings are dry, don't color the sound like bronze, are clean and really let the Brentrup shine. I know it would be hard to change strings on a mandolin you are looking at, and you have to take off the ball ends on the wound strings, but it may let you know more of the sound. Also if you can wake it up before making a decision. Once awake I doubt it will get time to sleep from playing joy.

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Demetrius

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## Mandobar

I take it you returned the Givens A.  

Hans specifically made his tops very thick.  It was part of his design.

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Demetrius

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## Demetrius

Mandobar, I did send it back but not nessesarliy as a return. they are going to contact me 
about options for stabilizing the neck. either with compression frets, or a carbon fiber rod, or 
perhaps both? Idk, somehow I think that would change the sound. They will hopefully be able
to do it, and hopefully not quote me too much. At this point I don't think I can part with it fully, 
but regardless, Im gonna get one of the mandolins mentioned above.

He made his tops thick? just then or even recently?

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## Mandobar

The tops are pretty thick on all the Brentrups I have owned, and I believe that Hans told me he preferred to build that way.

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Demetrius

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## Jim Garber

Demetrius: 
I have been following your multiple posts on various threads on your searching for the perfect instrument. Frankly, I don't believe that any of us can truly help you to come up with a solution. As you no doubt know, you are the final arbiter for this decision. In the ideal fantasy world if you can get all those mandolins you list above in one room each with a fresh set of strings and play them one after each other for a day, perhaps you will can most easily find your one true love.

Since that situation is most likely out of the question, I think you may just have to settle for what most of us do. Play as many as you can first. Maybe you will have to set aside some extra cash to play for multiple shipping costs to try them out with returns or even travel to a place that has many of these. At some point you will just have to settle for one.

In my mandolin ownership history I have serially owned and upgraded one after another. I now have small collection of ones that I pick to play. I have owed some of these for multiple decades. My most recent acquisition of them all is my 2007 Brentrup snakehead A4C. That is my usual first choice playing instrument these days. My more bluegrassy one is my 83 Flatiron A5-2. I don't think I ever assumed that I would find the ultimate mandolin but just took them as they come then moved one if one played or sounded better or fit the styles I was into at that time. Similar process worked for me for guitars and fiddles.

One thing I don't recall ever hearing you say in your recent posts: what is your main playing mandolin these days?

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Demetrius

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## Demetrius

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the feed back, I get what you're saying... I may end up traveling to some places.
As far as what I'm playing these days, up until a month ago I was pickin on a Dudenbostel F-5.
Before that, a Brunkalls A-5, before that a Brentrup F-5c, and before that a Gibson Distressed 
Mastermodel. All great mandolins, but if I could have one back it would be the Brentrup F-5c.
Maybe the current owner will sell it back to me one day, (you know who you are)..  :Smile:

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## Jim Garber

Man, I am sure that you know your mandolins and you certainly have the experience. Good luck on your search.

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Demetrius

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## Mandobar

I have to admit, I have not sold one thing yet that I would buy back.

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Demetrius

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## Jeff Mando

Dare I say......there is no ultimate......well, there is......until the next one comes along!  :Grin: 

I love all my instruments and many I've had for 30-40 years, but they all have areas that could be tweaked soundwise or personality-wise, but that's what makes them appeal to me.  And, I'm glad that I can hear those things as a measure for comparison when I try other instruments.

And, I hate to say it, having some age behind me means I'm no longer in a race to find anything, these days.  If it comes, it will present itself, IMHO.

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Demetrius

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## Paul Busman

Demetrius-- what are you playing now and why do you want to change? Just curious.

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## Jim Garber

> Hi Jim,
> 
> Thanks for the feed back, I get what you're saying... I may end up traveling to some places.
> As far as what I'm playing these days, up until a month ago I was pickin on a Dudenbostel F-5.
> Before that, a Brunkalls A-5, before that a Brentrup F-5c, and before that a Gibson Distressed 
> Mastermodel. All great mandolins, but if I could have one back it would be the Brentrup F-5c.
> Maybe the current owner will sell it back to me one day, (you know who you are)..





> Demetrius-- what are you playing now and why do you want to change? Just curious.


Paul: I asked the same question and he answered above. It sounds like the search for ultimate perfection which I agree with previous poster, might be impossible in reality. OTOH it is fun to try to get near that goal. On the third hand, it sounds like Demetrius has been pretty near that place a number of times.

BTW what is the difference between a Brentrup M23v and an F5c? Is it that M23 is copy of a specific Loar whereas F5c is general classic F5?

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## Mandobar

It sounds like the OP does not have a mandolin right now.

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## Jim Garber

> It sounds like the OP does not have a mandolin right now.


Hmmmm... I cannot imagine selling off every mandolin I own and not have at least one to play.

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## Mandobar

I may have assumed incorrectly, but he doesn't mention a "current" mandolin.

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## Demetrius

Mandobar, you are absolutely correct! Currently there is not a mandolin
In my collection of instruments. This is why I seem a little insane...

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Mandobar

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## Demetrius

There is a Hester F-5 for sale, anyone know anything about those?
Also, I got some video clips and great photos of 3 Hogan mandolins. 
The guy can build...

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## Mandobar

Take a deep breath, D.  Remember instruments are easier to buy than to sell.

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Demetrius

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## Jim Garber

We need a mandolin lending library so Demetrius can take his time finding one he loves. Actually, after re-reading his posts, it seems like there are many he loves. Commitment can be difficult esp when presented by multiple possibilities. The OP started with 5 possibilities but now I see that he has added a few more and additional possible makers to explore.

Knowing how many excellent makers are out there, I think if I were in his position I might go insane. In actual fact, tho, I am already insane, so maybe it makes no difference. OTOH I do have plenty of mandolins I love to play in my house.

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DataNick, 

Demetrius

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## Demetrius

Mando bar and Jim... You've both hit the nail on the head...
"Option shock"

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## sblock

Well, many of your fellow mandolin players here in the Mandolin Cafe can easily identify with your desire to get the best-possible sounding mandolin.  But most of us are bewildered to learn that you would divest yourself of _all_ mandolins in that process. I, for one, just can't imagine doing that, myself! Perhaps, at heart, you're something more of a _instrument collector_, but less of a mandolin player? Or perhaps the mandolin is just not your main love as an instrument?  Otherwise, this behavior makes no sense to me at all.  It can't be about the money, because most of us don't have the financial wherewithal to have previously owned such pricey instruments as a Dudenbostel, a Brentrup, and a Gibson Distressed Master Model -- as you have. Yow:  those instruments are mostly up in the $10,000-$20,000 range.  You'd think that with that kind of investment (not to mention all your other instruments), you'd also own a "beater" mandolin in the $3,000-$6,000 range: one that would probably outplay 90% of the instruments that others have here on the Mandolin Cafe.

Still, despite not being able to identify with your predicament, I suppose many of us would love to have this "problem" -- the ability to invest ~$20,000 in an instrument, and "option shock" about the many possibilities that it entails.

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DataNick, 

RyanRussell

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## Jim Garber

> Mando bar and Jim... You've both hit the nail on the head...
> "Option shock"


Well, if it were me and after playing a decent number of mandolins, I think I would opt for a Nugget A (given my budget and assuming I sold a god many of my other instruments. However, considering your statement about your long lost Brentrup, I would just pick one of these: *Brentrups for sale*.

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Demetrius

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## LadysSolo

Wow! There are some beauties on Brentrups for sale. How could you choose by looks? If they sound as good as they look, Incredible!

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Demetrius

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## Steve Roberts

> Well, if it were me and after playing a decent number of mandolins, I think I would opt for a Nugget A (given my budget and assuming I sold a god many of my other instruments. However, considering your statement about your long lost Brentrup, I would just pick one of these: *Brentrups for sale*.


Thanks for the link! The picture of Charley Rappaport holding the blacktop 3 point made me smile.  A great musician holding a stunning mandolin.  Perfect.

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Demetrius

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## Demetrius

Yes the Brentrup in the lineup Im looking at is one of the most pretty mandolins you'll ever see...

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## Mandobar

Those are old ads.  The black three pointer is long sold.

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## JeffD

> Mando bar and Jim... You've both hit the nail on the head...
> "Option shock"


The way to get past option shock is to realize two things:

No matter what you decide, you will regret it. You have some great options, and to some small extent you will always regret the unchosen ones. (In the same way, whatever you chose, through playing it often, you will come to love it and to believe it was the perfect choice.) 

No matter what you decide, there is a good chance this is not the last mandolin you will ever acquire. Four mandolins ago I purchased the last mandolin I would ever want. And I am not profligate.


The funnest part of the adventure is playing the darn thing.  :Smile:

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Demetrius

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## Demetrius

I've actually never played a Gilchrist A.
This is in the classifieds at I think a very good price.
Does anyone know how they compare to 
The F's?

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/99788#99788

P.S. Yes another one added to the list. :Crying:

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## Wilbur James

I would go for the Gilchrist.

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## Jim Garber

> I've actually never played a Gilchrist A.
> This is in the classifieds at I think a very good price.
> Does anyone know how they compare to 
> The F's?
> 
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/99788#99788
> 
> P.S. Yes another one added to the list.


Joe Walsh played/plays one. It sounds *great in his hands*. I heard him a few years ago on this mandolin when he played with the Gibson Brothers.

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## Demetrius

Actually then I take it back, I have played a Gilchrist A.
I've played Joes black top. He got a nugget A recently that was pretty ridiculously good in every way.

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## Demetrius

Actually I double take it back, I played a Gilchrist blonde A too.
Very fancy. Both were not what I love... I am into lots of sustain.
I love Engleman which is probably why I loved the sound of the Givens.
Any mandolin I've played with an Engleman top has had this quality I love. 
The only thing is none cut through very well aside from the Givens.

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## Jim Garber

Sustain...? The best f-holes with sustain in my book (I hate to say it) are Monteleone's beauties. A friend has a Baby Grand from the 1980s that is among my top mandolins ever and I have also played one of the super rare A models he made. Sustain and sweetness all the way up the neck.

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Demetrius

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## Demetrius

Yeh I mean don't get me wrong the Gils were great mandolins in every way. But just too dry 
For what I do. I like semi dark, tons of sustain with over tones. A nice complex mandolin.
Engleman and German spruce both seem to have that sonic quality

- - - Updated - - -

I've dreamed about a monti baby grand.

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## sgarrity

You need a Heiden with an Engelmann top!

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DataNick

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## pheffernan

Isn't A. Lawrence Smart the Engelmann guru?

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/100059#100059

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lflngpicker

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## Jim Garber

> You need a Heiden with an Engelmann top!





> Isn't A. Lawrence Smart the Engelmann guru?
> 
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/100059#100059


As the possibility list grows...

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Demetrius

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## Demetrius

I had a chance lastnight to sit down and play Mike Marshalls Loar.
It ruined everything lol. I forgot how great that thing sounded.
I Just need to pretend that sound and feel doesn't exist.

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## Mandobar

Could it also be that Mike has been strumming away on it for years.  Joe Walsh told me that when he bought his Gilchrist A he made a conscious commitment to keep it and play it for 3 years.

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DataNick, 

Demetrius

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## Jim Garber

> I had a chance lastnight to sit down and play Mike Marshalls Loar.
> It ruined everything lol. I forgot how great that thing sounded.
> I Just need to pretend that sound and feel doesn't exist.


Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it Mike's Loar that was regraduated back in the 1980s by John Monteleone? I remember seeing the jar of shavings that John kept on his workbench.

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Demetrius

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## Demetrius

Well that's exactly it, there's no real way to know how a modern builders mandolin will sound like in 80+ years.
I will say though, Mikes mandolin has been reworked in just about everyway. And it's still to him
not perfect. But he's love the sound enough to hang onto it all these years and slowly make it more of an instrument that would fit his needs. Changing neck angles with shims under the fingerboard, ripping a Virzi out, I think even re graduating the inside. He showed me a graphite nut he's trying on it in hopes it'll be more in tune. He looked at me and said there's no difference. Mandolins will never be completely in tune. It's like someone said on here, there is no ideal. All we can hope for is we find along the way whats closest to our ideal.

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## Hallmark498

Have you tried an Ellis?  

Wondering if Tom does/would do a Engelmann top?

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Demetrius

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## Jim Garber

> Well that's exactly it, there's no real way to know how a modern builders mandolin will sound like in 80+ years.
> 
> I will say though, Mikes mandolin has been reworked in just about everyway. And it's still to him
> not perfect. But he's love the sound enough to hang onto it all these years and slowly make it more of an instrument that would fit his needs. Changing neck angles with shims under the fingerboard, ripping a Virzi out, I think even re graduating the inside. He showed me a graphite nut he's trying on it in hopes it'll be more in tune. He looked at me and said there's no difference. Mandolins will never be completely in tune. It's like someone said on here, there is no ideal. All we can hope for is we find along the way whats closest to our ideal.


Yup... we cannot expect perfection. I have mandolins that I have owned and played for decades now and I am still tinkering with them for tone and playability. My tastes in those may have also changed over the years but I do know what I like (as do you) so I know where I want to go, tho I may not know how to get there. So, I suppose you grab something close enough and tinker it to your liking. 

As for what it will sound like in 80+ years: I will not be here to find out but I would go for how it sounds and plays in the present. That is all we really can do.

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DataNick

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## Demetrius

Mike really seems to love the Northfields. He said the newest and the highest end stuff will blow you your mind completely away.
In his words, (we're going all the way with these)...

When asking him about his thoughts on other makers, He said he loves Ashley Broders Apitius. 
He also really likes Tom Rozum's Wiens too. I specifically asked him about these mandolins of course.
I just wanted to clarify that this wasn't by coincidence since these are two of the 300 mandolins Im agonizing about lol.
He also was also very impressed with my brothers Brentrup Stealth. He played it for about 30 min or so, and said 
only positives about it. We've known him long enough to trust he'd be brutily honest about a mandolin that we show him.
Its happened in the past... He thought the Brentrup really maintained its integrity all of the way up the neck.

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## Mandobar

A lot of the sound comes from the player too.  I once heard Charlie Rappaport playing a mandolin at Acoustic Music Works in Pittsburgh.  It sounded so good I just had to have it............and lo and behold it was a Kentucky KM150.

True story.

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DataNick

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## Billy Packard

Hey there! I got my #246 Gilchrist A3 in 1993 and it has been a perfect mando!  Bright on top with full, warm mid and lower end and sustain until you're finished with the note.  Engelmann top and sugar maple S&B with X bracing.  It is sequentially very near Walsh's and sounds very similar.  Gilchrist has an archive with details on each instrument he's built..
http://www.gilchristmandolins.com/archive/

The first time I actually met Stephen Gilchrist I asked him if the difference between A models and F models was cosmetic and he resoundingly said YES!  The countless other details make up the instrument.

Yesterday I went to Gryphon Stringed instruments and spent time playing a 1987 Gilchrist F5 Fern, (#173) That is priced at $16,250.00 and I must say it sounds very much like the Lloyd Loar instruments I've had the opportunity to play.  The E & A strings are very bright and loud and the D and G strings are strong and focused.  You should check out this one while you're looking,

it.https://shop.gryphonstrings.com/prod...ius-neck-48547

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## Demetrius

Hah! Good story Mandobar...
Hands do make all the difference.

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## sblock

For the amount of money you'd need to spend to get one of those extremely high-end instruments that you're considering ($12,000-$25,000, and possibly more, if you opt for a signed Loar), it would well be worth your while to get better educated _with your own ears_.  Soliciting other folks' opinions about whatever they think sounds great may make for some interesting reading, but it simply won't cut it, I'm afraid, in guiding any purchase of this type -- however informative these opinions may appear to you on the surface. In the final analysis, it's a whole lot  of money at play in this game, and _only you_ can decide what you truly like.  Among these rarified instruments, _even from a single luthier_, there is still too much variation from one mandolin to the next to be able to make very useful generalizations.  This becomes even more variable when you consider instruments of different ages, different woods, and with different playing histories.  When you fold in the way that YOU play -- and not someone else! -- things become even more variable.  Simply because Mike Marshall or Adam Steffey (or whoever) can draw an amazing tone from some or other instrument does not mean that you'll be able to do the same.  The chances are good that you will sound like, well, _you_!  But no question about it, some mandolins will please your ear more than others.   And you are right to try to find those.

The only way to do this, in my opinion, is to go and *play the actual mandolin*.  Recordings don't do it justice, and they cannot speak to the playability of an instrument, either, which is a big factor.  Opinions of so-called experts matter little, and can only provide a crude guide.  Once you're up in the range of more than $10,000, anything you consider will be among "the very best" in the opinion of at least one or two experts!  That's a reason why these instruments command such high prices, after all.  Pictures mean nothing, either.  There is _no other way_:  you have to play the instrument yourself.

A round-trip plane trip to Nashville (from California?  Is that where you are?) is a small amount of money compared to what you might spend on a truly great mandolin.  So my advice is to take a field trip to Nashville very soon, and visit both Carter Vintage Guitars and Gruhns Guitars.  Between them, they have the best selection of high-end mandolins in the world right now, bar none.  Spend a day or two, and play everything in the shops.  While you're at it, bring along a trusted and talented mandolinist friend, to play them all in front of you, in addition to your own playing behind the instruments. And bounce your thoughts off your friend.  THAT'S the best way to decide, in my opinion.  You will not reach any conclusions reading threads on the Mandolin Cafe, however well-meaning the advice given here is.

Oh, and afterwards, please write up a full report of your experiences on this trip for all to read here!  We'd love to learn about whatever you tried, and whatever decided to you get, and why. 

Some of us can only live vicariously through the experiences of those with pockets so deep they run to five figures on up.  :Popcorn:

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Billy Packard, 

choctaw61, 

DataNick, 

mandotool

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## sgarrity

Last weekend I was at a jam and we had a '24 Loar, a '99 Gilchrist F5, my Kimble F5, and an Ellis F5.  I got to play that Loar for about an hour.  I've played the Gil and Ellis many other times.  As we sat and picked tunes and swapped mandolins every one of us was having a wonderful time no matter the instrument we were playing.  I think any one of us would have been happy to take any of those mandolins home with us.  The Loar, Gil, and Kimble all had the more focused mid-range we associate with a "bluegrass" mandolin.  The Ellis was bassier with more overtones and provided more auditory feedback to the player.  So many great options out there!

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almeriastrings, 

DataNick, 

Ivan Kelsall

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## DataNick

> I had a chance lastnight to sit down and play Mike Marshalls Loar...


Now you've lost me....LOL!....don't think I can relate to your conumdrum; waaaaay out of my league Brotha...LOL!

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## Demetrius

Sblock... Thanks so much for chiming in Sir. Everything you said made so much sense,
and it means a lot to me that you took the time to write that out. I at the very least will
owe you and all the other fine folks on here a nice description of my experience should 
I head to Nashville. Thats scenerio really does make a boat load of sense. Ill post a full 
review of the experience as well as on the chosen instrument.

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## Jeff Mando

> I had a chance lastnight to sit down and play Mike Marshalls Loar.
> It ruined everything lol. I forgot how great that thing sounded.
> I Just need to pretend that sound and feel doesn't exist.


I had a similar experience with an all original 1958 Stratocaster I played about 20 years ago.  It pretty much ruined the "chase" for electric guitars for me.  Shoulda bought it.......... :Crying:

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DataNick

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## pheffernan

> Mike really seems to love the Northfields. He said the newest and the highest end stuff will blow you your mind completely away. In his words, (we're going all the way with these)...


The Northfield Artist with five bars and an Engelmann top might provide the tone you're chasing.

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## Demetrius

I believe I may have found it!
Stand by.

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## Jim Garber

> I believe I may have found it!
> Stand by.


We are waiting with bated breath.  :Smile:

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## Dale Ludewig

Perhaps Demetrius has found the Schmergel......  In a pawn shop on a side street off Broadway?

----------


## darylcrisp

Demetrius
one of the folks in this group has to be you-the instruments you mentioned made me immediately think of this.
I'm thinking you may be the player at the start?





and while at it, throwing this Campy in the mix
http://themusicemporium.com/mandolin...anella-f5-2005

----------


## Mark Wilson

> Perhaps Demetrius has found the Schmergel......  In a pawn shop on a side street off Broadway?


I think I might have played that one. Hard to read the script from the glow and all.  I remember it was pricey.

----------


## Demetrius

Daryl, Thats is correct... It is I in the video.
I miss that Dude mando :-/

----------


## darylcrisp

> Daryl, Thats is correct... It is I in the video.
> I miss that Dude mando :-/


I remember finding this video over a year ago, a couple months after I started playing. That video, and how you play-your manipulation of the pick angle, using different areas of the fretboard, and a light touch, have influenced me heavily.

Thank you for that video.

I agree, that Dude in your hands was wonderful. I liked immediately-and still do, the Brentrup also. Love its shape and sound.

This thread is even more interesting now.

And I think you might get along with a certain Northfield quite well.

d

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Mandobar

Different mandolins require different approaches.  A few years back at a mandolin festival I watched as some really fine mandolinists exchanged mandolins to play a few tunes and you could see them adjust how they approached the different instruments after a few bars.  

For the life of me, I cannot see Demetrius going for a Northfield after owning and playing Thile's ex-Dude for a few years. Northfields are what they are, but I notice Adam Steffey is still playing his other mandolins and so is Mike Marshall.  I'm always very wary when people endorse models for compensation (of any kind).

----------

DataNick, 

Demetrius, 

jmkatcher

----------


## darylcrisp

> Different mandolins require different approaches.  A few years back at a mandolin festival I watched as some really fine mandolinists exchanged mandolins to play a few tunes and you could see them adjust how they approached the different instruments after a few bars.  
> 
> For the life of me, I cannot see Demetrius going for a Northfield after owning and playing Thile's ex-Dude for a few years. Northfields are what they are, but I notice Adam Steffey is still playing his other mandolins and so is Mike Marshall.  I'm always very wary when people endorse models for compensation (of any kind).


Marshall and Steffey are playing/working on the Artist models which are different in a lot of ways than the standard Northfield models. Marshall's Artist model is what Mr D recently played.
Fun thread-interesting to see what lands in the lap when the dust settles.

d

----------


## Mandobar

Endorsers generally get instruments with better woods, hardware, etc.  They all get paid to play those instruments (either via cash and or instruments- which, my fellow musicians, are taxable on the fair market value sayeth the IRS. They are not gifts, as businesses are not eligible to give gifts over $400, and only for certain purposes).  

That said, I still can't see D with anything other than a Brentrup, a Nugget (last time I saw Don Julin he had a Nugget), or something along those lines.  We are, as mandolin buyers, creatures of habit.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Drum role please? Pumpumpumpumpumpum!
I decided to make the move on a Gilchrist model 5.
It had all the specifics I was looking for. So stay tuned 
for more feedback on this Mando... 
A huge thanks to Bill P!

----------

9lbShellhamer, 

Billy Packard, 

darylcrisp, 

Steve-o

----------


## Russ Donahue

Congratulations.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Thanks for the kind words Daryl...
It's much appreciated!

----------


## darylcrisp

> Thanks for the kind words Daryl...
> It's much appreciated!


now you must come back and post us a nice long video when you get this Gil in hand and have the time to do so.

d

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

I would love to do so, and I will!

----------


## UlsterMando

It must have been difficult to part with your Dudenbostel.
It's a hard act to follow. 
I hope that in the Gil' you find your keeper.
Congrats.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Ken Waltham

> Drum role please? Pumpumpumpumpumpum!
> I decided to make the move on a Gilchrist model 5.
> It had all the specifics I was looking for. So stay tuned 
> for more feedback on this Mando... 
> A huge thanks to Bill P!



Smart move.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Yeh Ken, I think so too...

----------


## sgarrity

Look forward to seeing what you decided on....

----------


## Demetrius

Here it is!

----------

darylcrisp, 

DataNick, 

Glassweb, 

sgarrity, 

Steve-o

----------


## Nick Gellie

Well done Demetrius.  Where did you get your mandolin from and what is its provenance?  

You aimed high and got what you wanted I hope.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Atlanta Mando Mike

I've never seen a Gil with that finish before.  The coloring is a bit more reminiscent of a Heiden to me.  Very Cool!

----------


## Relio

That's a beauty! Congrats!!!

----------


## Demetrius

It's his Cremona

----------


## AlanN

Year?

----------


## Demetrius

Hi Alan, it's a 1987.

Question- They told me the mandolin is coming in a heavy rectangular flight case...
What on earth could that be? It's not a Calton or anything like that, could it possibly be 
one of those overly heavy anvil cases? I completely forgot to ask. I guess I'll find out but perhaps someone could fill me in on what they think this case could be.

----------


## sgarrity

Gary Price made some. So did Mark Leaf?  Maybe his were more coffin-shaped.

----------


## Demetrius

The package is supposedly like 25lbs

----------


## Demetrius

I feel like if it was anything better than a really heavy scary case then they wouldve noted it...
all I'm pictureing is the 3x5 ft case with a lot of foam with this little mandolin way in the middle

----------


## Don Grieser

There were some old rectangular Caltons.

----------


## Atlanta Mando Mike

Waiting for a mandolin... Time slows down!!

----------


## Demetrius

Yeh it's the only time I become a total insomniac

----------

Billy Packard

----------


## AlanN

> Hi Alan, it's a 1987.


Thank you. Have fun with it.

----------


## Billy Packard

Hey Dem, I did see the case & I didn't recognize it brand-wise.  It did look overbuilt to be sure!
How you holding up?  What day will you actually get it?

----------


## Demetrius

It feels and sounds like a Loar-
With a huge splash of Gilchrist madness...

----------


## Richard Mott

Wow, that is huge, beautiful!!!!

----------


## Relio

> It feels and sounds like a Loar-
> With a huge splash of Gilchrist madness...


Beautiful! Give us more pics when you get it home.

----------


## JAK

Is that the Gil that was at Gryphon Strings?

----------


## Demetrius

Yes it's the one from Gryphon strings.

----------


## sgarrity

Looks good!

----------


## Atlanta Mando Mike

So how is this one compared to the Givens A model you had?

----------


## Mark Seale

That's a whole lot of goodness.

----------


## Alex Orr

This has been a fascinating thread to read.  I play a 1999 Brentrup M23v.  It's actually Hans' third mandolin.  I've received a number of comments about the thickness of the top and I have long wondered if, over time, perhaps he tinned them down.  The general rule seems to be thinner top, more vibration, better sound and volume.  I know it's not quite that simple, but that does seem to be a general rule of thumb.  And yet...it's hard for me to recall a louder mandolin than I've played than my Brentrup.  Furthermore, it is one of the boomier bass and mid-range mandolins I've ever played and has mighty chop.  My biggest issue is the wide-neck (something I think he moved away from very quickly) and the lack of an adjustable truss rod, which admittedly hasn't been a problem yet and hopefully never will.  I really do hate the fretboard, and it's got a ton of dings and finish checking, but every time I think about selling it, I just can't imagine parting with the sound of the thing.  So, put me in the camp of Brentrup owners who think Hans' makes amazing sounding instruments.

----------


## Billy Packard

> This has been a fascinating thread to read.  I play a 1999 Brentrup M23v.  It's actually Hans' third mandolin.  I've received a number of comments about the thickness of the top and I have long wondered if, over time, perhaps he tinned them down.  The general rule seems to be thinner top, more vibration, better sound and volume.  I know it's not quite that simple, but that does seem to be a general rule of thumb.  And yet...it's hard for me to recall a louder mandolin than I've played than my Brentrup.  Furthermore, it is one of the boomier bass and mid-range mandolins I've ever played and has mighty chop.  My biggest issue is the wide-neck (something I think he moved away from very quickly) and the lack of an adjustable truss rod, which admittedly hasn't been a problem yet and hopefully never will.  I really do hate the fretboard, and it's got a ton of dings and finish checking, but every time I think about selling it, I just can't imagine parting with the sound of the thing.  So, put me in the camp of Brentrup owners who think Hans' makes amazing sounding instruments.


Alex, I once saw Lynn Dudenbostel reshaping a mando neck.  Also the builder could replace the neck with nominal effect.  ( I know how you feel hating the width!)

----------


## Demetrius

Well... The plot thickens Mando folks. After thinking long and hard about it,
I've decided the Gilchrist is going back... In fact I just left UPS and it is on its way back.
And we thought this thread was coming to an end. Ha! Not quite yet...

- - - Updated - - -

Ps Alex, Id love to talk more about that Brentrup of yours.

----------


## JAK

Sending it back because....???? Not sure but it seems like when this Gil first went up for sale it disappeared for a few days on the Gryphon website, and then came back = somebody else had it on approval and then sent it back? Anyway, what's up Demetrius? Curious minds are all over the place!

----------


## Capt. E

> I take it you returned the Givens A.  
> 
> Hans specifically made his tops very thick.  It was part of his design.


Top thickness is an interesting subject. Compare a vintage Gibson oval with a similar year Martin...the Martin's top is much thinner, but has much less volume than the Gibson and a different tone.

----------


## Demetrius

The Gil was originally taken off the site because a store worker thought they may be interested in it but they decided against it. 
They simply like their old mandolin better.

----------


## Demetrius

I sent it back because I felt it had a couple of cosmetuc issues.
Issues that I thought I could see in the Website pics, so I inquireed about them 
Before ordering. Unfortunately the sales person or no one else could see what I meant so I was assured it was fine.
When it arrived I inspected the instrument and those issues were not my imagination. 
Nothing big,just binding separation issues. Needless to say it still made me uncomfortable. So I immediately  contacted Gryphon and they were very cooperative and offered to fix it. There is also some set up issues that I just didn't feel like dealing with.I just felt like it was a lot of money to spend to have to worry about some of what it had going on. I communicated with Steve Gilchrest about this mandolin and he is just an unbelievably cool person. I can't even get over it to be honest. He makes an incredible mandolin, and as a human being he is equally kind hearted and passionate about what he does. That said, someone got their hands on this mandolin,   somewhere alone the line someone got hold of this mandolin and the set up was absolutely terrible. The bridge top didn't match the radius, so you can imagine what that did to the outer strings physically and tonally. The mandolin has naturally aged in a way that a mandolin ages without even being played. Finish checking Looks gorgeous, but I have a feeling this mandolin hasn't been played a lot it is was more so collected than anything. I don't think it ever opened up or it went back to sleep either way I didn't want to take a chance on that aspect either. I have to be completely happy where it is and if it gets better great but if it stayed the same I'd have to know that I'd be able to live with the sound exactly the way it is. It was a mid range monster he could probably cut through any max I even had a chance to record with it on and electronic project my friend is doing.I just played a little rough in the beginning and little froze throughout nothing too crazy but it was still enough to see that it is an incredible recording instrument. It lacked in the base but I do feel like a set of had a lot to do with this.

- - - Updated - - -

PS excuse me for the typos, I typed this on my iPhone.

----------


## Demetrius

I'm still very torn about sending it back, but either way house repairs need to be done on it. 
Same thing happened with the Givens. I saw back seam separation in the website photos and was assured it was fine. Well, it arrived and no not fine lol! I have to say I still feel that specific Givens is one of the best mandolins on earth. It's all subjective though, most people would say it's not bass heavy enough.  No it wasn't bass strong but it was tonally pure beauty. In fact the Gil and the Giv had very similar tonal aspects to them. They were both very powerful in the mid range area , I felt the Gil would cut better in any mix, but the Givens was pure sonic magic and can be described as smooth and buttery to play. And visually, out of any mando I've looked at was  simply my favorite. His sunburst was in my opinion as good as it gets.

----------


## Demetrius

Oh Yeh the lack of truss rod and tiny neck combination on the Givens was another concern.
If someone can give me a solution to that I'd be very tempted and getting that mandolin back. I have thought about it every day since I sent it back. I'm sure the Gilchrest will have the same effect on me though. We shall see. It's clear I've got Mando psychological issues here.

----------


## Demetrius

I mean to me, this is an elegant looking piece...
And the sound matched perfectly.

----------


## Jeff Mando

Hard to believe Gryphon would sell a Gilchrist, or any mandolin, with a poor setup.

----------


## Mandobar

That's why every musician needs to know a good luthier.  I have mine on retainer.

----------

Billy Packard

----------


## Josh Levine

You got it bad dude. I think I trip to Nashville is in order to sort all of this out. If you are dropping 5 figures on a mandolin might as well go play a few dozen of em.

----------

Denman John

----------


## Perilous Deep

Been following this to see where you end up. Given your love for Givens, have you checked out this F-5 with adjustable truss rod that's at Greg Boyd? He's certainly seen a fair few pass through there and speaks very highly of this one, which seems to be a rare example of adjustable truss Givens:

http://gregboyd.com/instrument_detai...ument_key=2047

----------


## Mandobar

The problem with a prolonged search that involves buying and returning instruments, and you need to be realistic about this, is that you wear out your welcome at a lot of places with expensive returns.  It's also a very expensive proposition as shipping and insurance costs have gone up.

While it is prudent to try instruments out, from a seller's perspective, the instrument is tied up for a number of days, and there is risk in shipping expensive instruments.  It might be cheaper to buy a plane ticket or take a short trip and check things out in person.

----------

DataNick, 

houseworker

----------


## Relio

I had a similar experience when I was in the market. I purchased a Duff that seemed dead when I received it. I didn't want to wait past the return window to see if it would open up. Then I purchased an Altman at an extremely good price, but the set up was horrible. With the bridge all the way down the action was extremely high and the top was slightly sunken in under the bridge. I came really close to getting out of bed at 2 a.m. one morning and making the 9 hour drive to Nashville. Later that week I purchased a Kimble and fell in love. And now, I'm set for life.... That's my love story :-)

----------


## Demetrius

Mandobar you and I seem to be on the same about most things and I agree with your last post.
I will say, in these last to instances there was something physically wrong with both mandolins sent.
Separating binding in four places on one Mando, and a split back seam on the other was just something
That made me uncomfortable with the purchase.

----------


## Mandobar

See, now Demetrius, if I liked them, despite their warts, I would have zipped down to my luthier with mandolin in hand and had him take a look see.  I've been through the binding issue before, and it took a bit, but after the fix you could not tell.  The problem with some mandolins is that they look perfect and sound "meh", and others have really been played and sound great, but look craggy.  Craggy can be fixed, and as I remember, the Gil was priced fairly low (compared to others on the market).  "Meh", well sometimes, they never progress beyond "meh".

----------


## Demetrius

Has anyone played the 2014 Duff at Carter? Or the 2011 Gilchrist A3 theyre aelling?

----------


## Demetrius

Also , Yeh man I was wondering about that sweet F Givens  at Greg Boyd

----------


## Demetrius

I think I'm gonna get a therapist next...

----------

The Musician's Wife

----------


## pheffernan

> I think I'm gonna get a therapist next...


They too have scrolls and points.

----------

Don Grieser

----------


## Jim Garber

Demetrius: Too bad that *2012 Dudenbostel A* at Music Emporium is on hold. That might have been the logical next on the list. 

I assume you are only interested in second-hand? You could just commission from the maker who has the best of the best (for you, that is). I second (or third) the suggestion to take a trip to Nashville or other place where there are a good pile of possibilities. Mandolin Brothers used to be that for me but alas...

I can't recall if you owned a Nugget or not in your past (too lazy to look earlier in this epic thread.)

----------


## Demetrius

Hi Jim,

    Believe it or not I sat and played that Dude for hrs, and yes it was GREAT!
Had it been a slightly smaller neck I would've considered it.

----------


## Jim Nollman

The most recent posts here remind me of what I just went through. I have been buying and selling mandolins of ever-increasing value for the past 5 years, always trying to build up my mandolin equity. Finally, this past April I sold two fine mandolins and made a promise to myself to buy something special, with the idea of looking for a keeper. 

After a few false starts, I pulled the trigger on an Altman two-point I saw on the Cafe. I am well aware of Bob's stellar reputation, so this one caught my eye because the price was incredibly low. But viewing the pics in the ad, I thought the low price had to be a function of the top plate showing some very noticeable fingernail scratches.

I got the Altman for a 48 hour trial. During that time period, probably to a fault, I focused on the tone and the playability. I gave the tone an 8 because it obviously needed a setup. The playability got a 6 because it looked to be badly in need of a fret dressing. During those same 48 hours, I got a message from a Cafe friend who pays attention to high end mandolins in the Classifieds. He told me that the Altman's seller had the same instrument listed in the Cafe Classifieds a year ago, at about twice the price he had quoted me. So I offered him 80% of his selling price. He immediately accepted it. 

Within the first week, I got the scratches eliminated by a local luthier who touched up the scratches with a French polish. He also dressed the frets. Unfortunately, when I got it back, I noticed some new problems. The tuners were utter junk. I called Bob Altman, who told me that all his mandolins had waverly tuners. I can only presume that the seller had stripped them off to sell separately, which was one way he could lower the price without suffering a total loss. I felt a bit like a chump, for not noticing that beforehand.  I'm not a big fan of Waverlys, so i bought some black and brass Rubner tuners. They look and they work GREAT. 

Perhaps more seriously, only after the tuners were installed, I noticed that the new fret dressing had left me with very little fret at several locations on the fingerboard. It was actually less playable than before. So I gave the mandolin to a well-known mandolin repair specialist, with my permission to do anything to make it play and sound perfectly. He changed the frets to EVO gold, resurfaced the fingerboard, raised the nut a tad, nudged the internal rod, and set it with the low action i prefer. 

I just got it back. It is  finally  the best sounding mandolin I have ever owned. And it is the keeper I had originally sought.  

One last thing. I talked to Bob Altman again about how I had restored the mandolin to something close to its original condition. He told me that he's now getting almost $20k for a mandolin, and that he's probably going to retire in a few more years. He told me to hold on to the mandolin ESPECIALLY if it proved to be an example of his craftsmanship and his much sought after sound. He thought that all I had spent on it, was a pittance to what it would eventually be worth. It's good to know although, truly, it is a keeper.

----------

DataNick

----------


## Demetrius

Wow Jim! Oh god now Im panicking that I sent it back. It's 8:14pm and Im laying on my couch reading what you just wrote and it makes me think to myself. Why on earth didn't I get this set up???? Partly due to outside influence. I brought it to the music emporium and between a worker there whom I know very well, and some random customers all agreed it was missing it's low end.This mandolin had substantially been effected by something that stripped it of its low end. Could it be that it just hadn't been played in a long time? 
Well actually I know for a fact it wasn't played for a long time. Either way this needed to be mailed back do to the binding separation.  
So I just have to keep telling myself that. Maybe I should call them tomorrow and say, I want to send it to Steve Gilchrist for a good set up after repairs on their part have been made.

----------


## Demetrius

Believe me the Givens F at Boyd is running through my head too. If it's anything like the Givens A I had but with a truss rod 
Then I'm intrigued... Only thing I don't like is it looks rather weird. Like the scroll work is like geeZ. The Gilchrist was visual perfect and that Givens visually isn't the prettiest girl on the block Greg said it sounds amazing though. I feel like shallow hal. Anyone seen that movie? That's me. Shallow Dem

----------


## Josh Levine

Have you played the Campanella at Music Emporium, Demetrius? Curious about that one. Looks like it could be a monster.

----------


## chasray

> Has anyone played the 2014 Duff at Carter? Or the 2011 Gilchrist A3 theyre aelling?


I played the Gilchrist A3 just last week and just loved it and would have bought it if I could. But, I'm not an expert.

----------


## pops1

Demetrius, look at the classifieds right now. New Givens  just hit the market.

----------


## Demetrius

Only thing... He only posted one mandolin for sale...
There must be two missing in that add cause there is no way 
He is selling that one f5 for $35k. Lol
I'm so confused right now

----------


## JAK

Having over 20 years experience with Gryphon Strings, I cannot imagine them sending or having a mandolin for sale that needs a set-up, or selling a mando that has binding issues unless they tell you about it upfront. Perhaps the binding became a problem during shipping? Whatever happened I don't think Gryphon's reputation should be on the line here (no financial or professional relationship except I buy from them occasionally). They have expert luthiers and repairmen on site, so that really makes me wonder what happened here with the Gil. If it were me looking for a new mandolin I'd go an PLAY a bunch and wait until one really, really "spoke to me." As someone before posted, for the money a Gil costs, I'd take a train, plane, or automobile and go to some shops and play a bunch. That way I wouldn't have any surprises. If I were in your shoes right now Demetrius I wouldn't jump-the-gun and have the same thing happen to you again. Just my two cents.

----------


## Demetrius

Hi jack,
  Yeh somewhere along the line the Gilchrist had a bad set up. 
For one the bridge too doesn't match the radius of the fretboard.
So the g and e are significantly higher off the board than the D and a. 
It's got a very tight radius so this was very noticeable. Also the bridge
was converted to a full contact bridge. Not by sanding the feet, but by 
Filling in the space. I just don't like it done that way. I think it suffered tonally.
Also, now looking back at the pics I saved of the Gil from the website sho the separation.
I zoomed I a few days ago cause I speculated the same thing. Could have happened when being shipped. But I can at least spot two of th four. 
In no way is my opinion of Gryphon strings altered. They are a good shop,
Good people and I was very happy with how easy they were to communicate this issue with.
I absolutely would purchase a mandolin from them again. Heck maybe I'll just end up sticking with the Gil once it's fixed.

----------


## Demetrius

I've been typing this all on my phone, I swear that's why it looks so strange.

----------


## Demetrius

Jim Nollman, Wow now that's one heck of a story!

----------


## Jeff Mando

I've been following your various threads, and I'm cheering for you, Demetrius!  My thoughts are that a Gil should have an exceptional sound.  But, being an '87, some minor maintenance and adjustment may be required to get it to the standards you require.  Once repaired and setup, it may just be the "one".

----------

Mandobar

----------


## kathclapp

> It feels and sounds like a Loar-
> With a huge splash of Gilchrist madness...


Beautifl! :Smile:

----------


## Perilous Deep

> Believe me the Givens F at Boyd is running through my head too. If it's anything like the Givens A I had but with a truss rod 
> Then I'm intrigued... Only thing I don't like is it looks rather weird. Like the scroll work is like geeZ. The Gilchrist was visual perfect and that Givens visually isn't the prettiest girl on the block Greg said it sounds amazing though. I feel like shallow hal. Anyone seen that movie? That's me. Shallow Dem


Is it? The photos are at a slight angle to the face of the mandolin, so perhaps just a perspective effect? I mean, it's definitely the case that the binding work is not ultra-clean, so if fit and finish perfection is a priority, I imagine you'd always be a little dissatisfied there. Anyway, NFI or anything, just looks like a fine instrument to me.

----------


## Mandobar

Bob Givens was not known for his fit and finish.  Rather these mandolin are coveted for their sound and tonal qualities.  I don't think anyone should be shopping for a Givens whose focus is on fit and finish.

----------


## Demetrius

Yeh I mean I will admit the A6 I had visually was close to perfect. 
Everything was symmetrical and the work was clean as can be.
However, I don't think any of the F's Ive seen have bee in that camp.
I don't know, I guess if the one at Greg Boyd is simply as good 
as he says it is, then who cares about the scroll right? A friend of mine 
went in there and sent me a few detailed pics from a bunch of 
different angles, she also sent  a video and as expected you 
can't tell a whole lot from the video.
Also, below is the Brentrup and Wiens that Ive been debating on...

----------


## Jim Nollman

Glad to hear you picked up a few tips from the story of my own recent purchase of an imperfect Altman. It seems to me that if you are going to buy any of the expensive mandolins you mention, you owe it to yourself either to educate yourself to the fine points of mandolin functionality, OR find (or hire) a consultant to guide you in your search to discover what's there in any mandolin already, and what's just below the surface waiting to be freed. Instead of turning down a Gilchrist because of an improper setup or the trivia of loose binding, you need to have some better ears who will tell you if that mandolin is going to fulfill your dreams once it gets its gingerbread repaired plus a professional setup. Don't rely on a retailer to do that. You may not even be able to hear it in the store. And be aware that despite all the comments elicited by your video of playing ten mandolins, that video doesn't actually provide enough sonic quality for anyone to honestly help you. All those mandolins sounded about the same to me. Yes, its just as true that they all sound differently up close in real time. 

My story was meant to explain that, at first sight,  I acted oblivious to some obvious flaws with that Altman. But I have played mandolin for a very long time. Once I played my first performance with that Altman, each of the flaws became obvious. Once I diagnosed the problems, I knew precisely what I needed to do (and who I needed to call)  to fix them. 

And here's  the important part. Once i diagnosed the problems, I felt  that it was going to be very much worthwhile for me to spend the money to hire a pro to fix them. I knew that in the end, this mandolin was going to sound incredible.

My story describes some major repairs, and when it was complete, I had spent an extra (plus or minus) $800. Certainly, that's too much money to spend restoring an Eastman, and maybe even a Weber. But Bob Altman's reputation made me realize that I was always dealing on a different level here. The mandolin I own now has that clear-as-a-bell bubbly tone and bottomless woofing chop that I have always sought. 

Demetrius, you can swap out Bob Altman's name in the above paragraph, and replace it with any of the builders you have been discussing.

----------

Billy Packard, 

Demetrius, 

houseworker

----------


## Hallmark498

Kennard's A3 looks awesome

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/100786#100786

----------

sgarrity

----------


## darylcrisp

> Yeh I mean I will admit the A6 I had visually was close to perfect. 
> Everything was symmetrical and the work was clean as can be.
> However, I don't think any of the F's Ive seen have bee in that camp.
> I don't know, I guess if the one at Greg Boyd is simply as good 
> as he says it is, then who cares about the scroll right? A friend of mine 
> went in there and sent me a few detailed pics from a bunch of 
> different angles, she also sent  a video and as expected you 
> can't tell a whole lot from the video.
> Also, below is the Brentrup and Wiens that Ive been debating on...


my vote:

Brentrup, probably not going to be any more made
and of any that you had that you miss most, which one was it........................Brentrup?

d

----------


## Demetrius

Yeh the F-5c I had was awesome... And still Is pretty awesome 
Except I don't wanna know that it's still awesome 
cause I don't own it lol. Jk  Mr Larry

----------


## Demetrius

Is be very happy to try out a Brentrup V-8. My brother has a stealth and 
Quite honestly Id be happy forever with that. I could A. Have my brother 
 kidnapped and steal his stealth, or I can locate one for sale. I like all those 
crazy models that Brentrup came up with. If the one at Carter was significantly 
less $  Id be all over it.ive posted want ads looking for a very specific V8.
This one, if the owner of this came forward, I would buy it on the spot and 
This thread would be finished!

----------


## pops1

I agree and wish I could afford either the Stealth or V-8. Love the looks of both. Don't get me wrong I love my 23V, but oh boy those curvy others.

----------


## Demetrius

Someone emailed me and said at one point they purchased a V8 for $6800

----------


## Demetrius

I'm starting to lose my mind a bit so it's good for some cafe folks to keep me grounded.
Am I nuts for looking at this mandolin and blushing a bit? Only thing is it's laquer and has 
no truss rod... But wouldn't that look rad my bro and I doing mandolin duets? Me on this 
Ivory beast and him on his black stealth?


- - - Updated - - -

----------

Billy Packard

----------


## houseworker

Get a Kentucky KM-150 from the Mandolin Store: https://themandolinstore.com/product...-with-gig-bag/

Everything you're looking for and more.

----------

almeriastrings, 

Demetrius, 

Franc Homier Lieu, 

hank, 

Mark Wilson

----------


## Demetrius

Nooooo... You get a kentucky from the mandolin store...

----------


## Mandobar

............and I think we are about done here.

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Hi guys,

I'm debating on whether or not to start a new thread, but this one is especially golden.

As the wife of a musician - and one that is currently obsessing about/nursing an addiction with his mandolin search - I've decided to start recording the ongoing search in a blog. Somehow his search has captivated quite the audience (not only online, but the people he encounters in everyday life), and I figured I had a unique perspective on it to share. Tune in for narrative posts, video clips, and other random bits that chronicle his adventures - and sometimes woes - in mandolin hunting.

Let's face it. There is an inherent competition that happens when a man has both a passion (cough obsession cough) for the mandolin and an actual woman in his life. I am literally competing for bed space with Amanda Lynn... 

Here's the link to my blog - hope you check out the first post and comment! An especially illuminating video clip is coming shortly...

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/



-Kate, the wife of a musician

----------

Billy Packard, 

RyanRussell, 

Steve-o

----------


## Austin Bob

My personal experience is that as a musician, I strive for, but never obtain absolute perfection.

I want the same perfection in my instruments, and can quite literally become obsessed with my next purchase. Of course once I purchase said instrument, I am never fully satisfied, and often get a case of buyer's remorse.

As an example, I've always wanted a Les Paul, and finally bought one as a birthday present to myself, along with the required Marshall amp. It took me three months to pick out the one I wanted. I was not satisfied with the intonation (the bridge had to be in the extreme adjustment to be in tune), and ended up sending it back and bought another, more expensive model. The intonation is spot on. Same with the amp. Took the first one back because the tone wasn't quite what I wanted. 

Long story short, I played it a bunch the first few months, but it's been over a month since I've taken it out of the case. The thrill of searching for it was much greater than the thrill of actually owning one.

Enjoy your search, it may be the best part.

----------


## Mandobar

If you need instruments to play gigs, they tend to get out of their cases more.  I have a question, Demetrius, if you don't have a mandolin right now, does that mean you are turning down gigs, or are you borrowing a mandolin from somewhere?  How are you practicing, or is that what's making you antsy?

----------


## Jim Garber

The amazing thing for me about our dear friend Demetrius is that, after playing mandolin for many years and owning some of the finest handmade instruments on this earth he is 100% mandolinless at this moment. I posted way back in this thread that I found this oddly amazing. I know some might find this ridiculous but the reason I love mandolins is to actually play them, to make music and to create lovely tones, to commune with others who play similar music. I wonder if The Search itself for the perfect mandolin has overcome the actual motivating factor instead of the reason for the search, that is to find an excellent instrument to play. 

If I were Demetrius, I would at least have some acceptable instrument to play. Otherwise, by the time he finds the One he may no onger be able to play. At least borrow a temporary mandolin to remind himself of the joy of playing and the true reason for all this.

----------

Jim Nollman, 

Mandobar, 

Mark Wilson

----------


## MikeEdgerton

> ...I know some might find this ridiculous but the reason I love mandolins is to actually play them, to make music and to create lovely tones, to commune with others who play similar music...


Whoa, you can play mandolins too? I thought they were just to have hidden away in a case to keep them safe. Why wasn't I informed?  :Cool:

----------


## Demetrius

There is always a beautiful Apitius...

----------


## Mandobar

Jim, my point exactly.  It's like a bus driver without a bus, or an outfielder (baseball analogy) out on the field with no glove.  In the Campanella thread he deems the builder as an amazing builder.  Certainly, it would make a good "place holder" while he continues the search, but perhaps, as you say, the search has overwhelmed the purpose of the activity.

Sooner or later, with no practice, you lose your callouses.

----------


## Demetrius

So to answer the presented question. What am I playing now? Or how am I making my musical living without a mandolin? 
Answer: My gracious brother just as I'm about to cry swoops in with is Brentrup Stealth and saves me for a moment. 
He lets me use it for short spurts of time. A couple hrs or so when needed. 
Then when I go home to a mandolinless home, that's when the dark hrs begin. lol 
Thank God for Youtube mandolin videos!!!
Oh and the album bluegrass mandolin extravaganza! That keeps me happy during my daily travels.

----------


## Demetrius

Ummm why did my wife's thread get locked? 
I don't believe there was anything of offense 
posted on there. It was mandolin related, and simply 
showing her perspective as the wife of a mandolin
obsessed husband. No profanity, no accusations,
or anything negativeness  directed to any specific individual.
Locking somones thread for no informed reason is a
disrespect in itself. What a shame... it was light hearted
and she was playing off of that and adding humor to it.
Every comment made to me was appreciated very much.
I saw it all as part of my quest in finding my next mandolin.

----------


## Demetrius

P.S. Mandobar I was going to reply to your statement on the other forbidden thread, 
But it was closed before I could do so. Anyhow, yes I probably will just pick something
up in the meantime. I sort of just lost my appetite for posting a whole lot more about it.

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

> Ummm why did my wife's thread get locked? 
> I don't believe there was anything of offense 
> posted on there. It was mandolin related, and simply 
> showing her perspective as the wife of a mandolin
> obsessed husband. No profanity, no accusations,
> or anything negativeness  directed to any specific individual.
> Locking somones thread for no informed reason is a
> disrespect in itself. What a shame... it was light hearted
> and she was playing off of that and adding humor to it.
> ...


From the posting guidelines:

- Discussions started with the specific purpose or that end up used specifically for the purpose of antagonizing or calling into question a moderator's control of this forum or the site owner's right to enforce forum policy is forbidden and may result in immediate and permanent loss of membership and posting privileges. If you have concerns regarding forum policy contact a moderator or the site owner privately.

And now that you've ranted to my email in-box and demanded a phone call to explain policies that have been in place for close to 20 years, let me say continue to do so and publicly questioning forum guidelines and you'll be shown the door. Or leave if you wish. If you need to chatter with your spouse might be best you do it in the privacy of your home instead of dragging the forum around. We've had enough.

----------


## Steve-o

Scott,

While I agree that the OPs off-line response was inappropriate, I respectfully join with the other folks who were enjoying this thread and didn't find any of the discussion offensive or inappropriate.  I hope we can return to a friendly discourse. Thanks for unlocking it.

P.S. I will continue to follow the blog site.  I'm rather enjoying hearing about MAS from a spouse's perspective.

----------

Billy Packard, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Demetrius

I think we have a unique community here, it's all about passion for a pretty special musical instrument.
We are all like minded in that way. I would like to publically apologize for my jumping the gun, and 
Responding in a way that could easily be conveyed as inappropriate. That being said I apologize to 
The moderators and mc ownership for the comment and hope you will accept it. And thank you for 
returning the thread. Again, the search continues and I value every single comment made on here. 
Believe it or not even though I portrey a lost soul without a mandolin I really am enjoying this process and have a lot of you to thank for it. All the best to the Cafe and cafe members.
Sincerely,
Demetrius

----------

Billy Packard, 

Steve-o, 

UlsterMando

----------


## August Watters

> . . .be aware that despite all the comments elicited by your video of playing ten mandolins, that video doesn't actually provide enough sonic quality for anyone to honestly help you.


Yes. And even with a high-resolution recording, the technology is affecting the perceived sound. mp3s are a lot better than nothing, but I don't think you're going to get more than a ballpark impression of the sound of an instrument this way.

And then there's the problem of picks: the pick in the photograph of Kate's blog attenuates the high end. They're good picks, I use them too, sometimes, when I want to attenuate the highs. But no one is going to explore the full range of an instrument's tonal possibilities with a pick that's reducing its frequency range.

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## UlsterMando

The thread continues . . .

----------


## Demetrius

August! How the heck have you been? Great seeing you chime in...
I agree videos are a tough way to capture the sonic characteristics of the mandolin. 
And picks, thats a whole other story. 
Oh no! Seeing your name has immediately brought my mind to bowl backs.
Hmmm maybe a bowl back should be tried????  :Smile:

----------


## UlsterMando

:Mandosmiley:  Mas hysteria  :Mandosmiley: 

Glad to hear that with your brother's help
you're  not stuck for a mando in the meantime.
You take your time finding what you want !
This may be the only place on earth that 
such mando-drama finds a ready audience.

The search continues . . .

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Thanks Mando Unlster! You guys all rock! 
I'm glad you're enjoying it, I'm enjoying it too.

----------


## August Watters

> Oh no! Seeing your name has immediately brought my mind to bowl backs.
> Hmmm maybe a bowl back should be tried????


If bowlbacks are in your radar, your decision is about to get a whole lot more complicated. I've been serving as a consultant for a new store, opening soon in the South. That's as much as I can say for now.   :Whistling:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Jim Garber

Ah, thanks to Scott and other moderators for the cool heads that prevailed (especially here in the east where it is way too hot). If nothing else, assuming that this thread ever reaches a conclusion I think many of us would love to know what he ends up with.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## CES

Check out the 2 point Monteleone that just dropped into the classifieds.  Oh, if I didn't have a kid in college and another a couple of years away from college...

----------


## Demetrius

Id love to know what I'll end up with too...
It changes from moment to moment. It's really does,
But at the moment I'm highly considering a mint condition 
Wiens F-5.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Oh no! Seeing your name has immediately brought my mind to bowl backs.
> Hmmm maybe a bowl back should be tried????


No!! As one of the founding members of the Loyal Order of the Bowl, I consulted the rest of our esteemed board and you are forbidden to even consider a bowlback. Besides, you already rules out oval holed carved tops, why would you even consider... oh, never mind!  :Smile:

----------


## Jim Garber

> Check out the 2 point Monteleone that just dropped into the classifieds.  Oh, if I didn't have a kid in college and another a couple of years away from college...


My very favorite mandolin on earth is a Baby Grand but less ornate that than one but has the ultimate sound esp in the hands of its very capable owner who I know would never sell it. 

I did play a fancy one like the one in the classifieds when one was at Mandolin Brothers and I hate to to say it but that one did not quite measure up to the one I know and love. I have played a few Grand Artists that did tho.

----------


## Demetrius

Jim you're probably right, I probably should open the bowl back can of worms. 
The Wiens is really calling out to me
At the moment... I won't know until I try it but 
That may be my next step in my
Quest. 
2013 Wiens F-5
2016 Apitius Rosine
2004 Brentrup M23v
1992 Givens F-5 w/truss rod
1987 Givens A6 that I've already for a week.
Pretty great mandolin but not good for all applications.
Just very sweet to play.
1987 Givens A6

----------


## Denman John

I know that the 12th fret in Toronto has a new Apitius Rosine just in.  As for the other Apitius in the classifieds, that one sold a few days ago  :Whistling:

----------


## Steve-o

> I know that the 12th fret in Toronto has a new Apitius Rosine just in.  As for the other Apitius in the classifieds, that one sold a few days ago


12th fret also has a Heiden F5 with a tempting price.

----------


## Demetrius

Yes that is definitely on my radar

----------


## LadysSolo

I am reminded of the immortal words of Mr Spock (Star Trek) when he expressed the sentiment that even though it was not logical, wanting is more desirable than having. It seems that this may be the case here, where the chase is more desirable than having a wonderful mandolin......

----------


## Demetrius

Although I will admit I do like to chase, I really am at this point just looking for a mandolin 
that'll inspire me.  feel and tone are everything to me, and then esthetics.  The mandolins on
that list are the ones I'm trying to  decide from currently.

----------


## darylcrisp

not sure if this one would work for you, but I know a friend who stopped by and checked it out-and the Ellis before it sold, and he was enamoured with the Passernig F.

he had never played one, had heard only good things of them, and said it was probably the best mandolin he had ever laid hands on.
said it was beautiful in looks and extremely well set up.

and only $7500

http://www.smokymountainguitars.com/...olins/558.html



just trying to add even more confusion :Grin:  to your life...................

----------


## Demetrius

Thanks Daryl lol
It looks lovely!

----------


## Mark Wilson

Have you considered getting a second or a beater for now?  Ellis, Duff, Kimble, Passernig, Gibson MM etc

Something to nice to *play* while you continue searching for the one.   :Cool:

----------


## pops1

Demetrius, I have seen your list (very impressive) and I know you are agonizing over this decision. I also know it is hard to order a mandolin, play it and send it back, order another and try to compare them. Have you thought of discussing with all sellers and temporally buying all at once so you can have a few days with them all at once to make a better more informed decision on which one speaks to you. It might cost you less than trying to travel to each place and play them one at a time. This may sound crazy, but then........who knows. Just a thought.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Jeff Mando

> Have you thought of discussing with all sellers and temporally buying all at once so you can have a few days with them all at once to make a better more informed decision on which one speaks to you.


I don't know of any sellers who would agree to this -- buy 5 mandolins from 5 separate dealers, knowing up front 4 will be sent back?  Or maybe all 5.....that borders on abuse of the return privilege, IMHO.  At least, if I were the seller I would feel taken advantage of, not to mention the risk to the instruments during shipping.  Best not to mention this "strategy" on the front end.

OTOH, nothing wrong with going to Carter's (or wherever) and spending 3 or 4 hours playing everything in the shop.  Then going to another place and doing the same thing.

The OP is an experienced player and knows what appeals to him.  Something will stand out from the crowd.

----------


## Demetrius

Id spend three days at Carters and probably walk out with a guitar instead lol!

----------


## UlsterMando

OTOH, nothing wrong with going to Carter's (or wherever) and spending 3 or 4 hours playing everything in the shop.  Then going to another place and doing the same thing.

This sounds like your best move.

----------


## Demetrius

She sure was pretty... but I don't think was ever played very much.
Can anyone chime in who has or had a M23V and how it changed tonally from when you first received it?

----------


## JAK

Where's the Glichrist? Who has it NOW?

----------


## pops1

I posted before about a 23V, but it was a typo, I have a 21V. It had not been played much before I got it, it was bright on top and dead on the bottom. Refitted the bridge as I believe a new mandolin top will settle due to the string tension so the bridge was refit. Play, Play, Play now this same mandolin is warm in the highs and very nice in the lows with much sustain and balance. I am in the middle of prototyping some new strings for GHS and am waiting for the new heavier gauge of wound strings to come hopefully next week. They make this mandolin even better. In my opinion it has changed hugely for the better and I haven't found one I like better. I get MAS and play others, but I keep coming home to mine. The grass always seems greener until it is tasted then you know the sweetest grass is at home. For me, so far at least. I know there are mandolins out there that I will like better at some point, time will tell, but until I find one this is the one. It is very distressed with many gigs and thousands of hours of playing and it makes me smile every day.

----------

Billy Packard, 

Demetrius

----------


## pops1

Another note on the Brentrup, I left for ten or so days and took another mandolin as I knew I wouldn't get to play much and the environment wouldn't be great. When I got home the Brentrup had shut down, it of course opened back up with about 20 minutes of playing, but if the one you are looking at hasn't been played that is something to consider.

----------


## Jim Garber

The one Apitius I played had a very narrow neck, even too narrow for me and I prefer narrow necks (like 1-1/8" or even less) vs. wider (like 1-1/4"+).

As for mandolins that change over time... I am not a firm believer in that. I think the player is the one who changes. If you pick up a mandolin and play it for at least 30 minutes you should have a very good idea of the tonal qualities and potential. Yes, it can change with improved setup or different strings, picks etc. but I still think that if it is not close to what you perceive as your tonal ideal, then walk away. It might change some but not in a large way IMHO.

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> Although I will admit I do like to chase, I really am at this point just looking for a mandolin 
> that'll inspire me. feel and tone are everything to me, and then esthetics.  The mandolins on
> that list are the ones I'm trying to  decide from currently.


For the record: What especially does inspire you? What tone are you looking for? What´s the feel that you want? And what is improtant aesthetically.

I know that I sometimes feel prejudiced in favor or against an instrument... What is it with you? Explain please.

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Hi All,

I've updated the blog recording my wonderful husband's adventures in mandolin hunting... There are a few especially interesting new videos to check out:

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com

Enjoy :-)

-Kate

----------


## Demetrius

I love that I get to share this experience with my sweetie... 
She caught me lusting over a Bretrup V8 with my mum.
I think my mum liked it too. I really wish I could track a nice 
used one of these at a good price.

----------


## pops1

> I love that I get to share this experience with my sweetie... 
> She caught me lusting over a Bretrup V8 with my mum.
> I think my mum liked it too. I really wish I could track a nice 
> used one of these at a good price.


Saw one at Carters if I am remembering right, 18K tho

----------


## Demetrius

Can someone please help me find this mandolin?
Maybe the owner would be willing to share their 
thoughts on it, or maybe even willing to part with it.
https://brentrupmandolinregistry.wor...08-eclipse-v6/

----------


## pheffernan

> And then there's the problem of picks: the pick in the photograph of Kate's blog attenuates the high end. They're good picks, I use them too, sometimes, when I want to attenuate the highs. But no one is going to explore the full range of an instrument's tonal possibilities with a pick that's reducing its frequency range.


I too find the Wegen TF140's to be bright (but oh so comfortable to hold). What pick(s) would you use or propose "to explore the full range of an instrument's tonal possibilities?"

----------


## August Watters

> What pick(s) would you use or propose "to explore the full range of an instrument's tonal possibilities?"


On an acoustical level, I think what's needed is a pick that doesn't attenuate any part of the instrument's frequency range -- you can learn, in time, to do that with your technique, but if you start with a pick that's eliminating part of the frequency range, you're losing some of the sound up front. Sometimes you WANT to do that, for aesthetic purposes (I sometimes use the Wegen for Bach) but I think it should be conscious choice. And if that's your path, that's great -- nothing wrong with focusing on one set of possibilities over another; we all do it all the time.

I don't like most guitar picks for the same reason, plus the standard shape is not ideal for me. I like the Clayton Ultem picks (NFI) because the material is neutral enough not to absorb highs, and there's a small teardrop-shape for mandolin. But that shape isn't ideal either, at least for me. The small elongated pick by Dogal designed by Ugo Orlandi is excellent, and has recently become available from Strings By Mail (again, NFI). But they're designed for bowlback and the heaviest one is not heavy enough for most carved-instrument players. I suspect Blue Chip would be a good choice, except the shape and weight is all wrong for bowlback mandolin, which is what I play most.

So I don't have a perfect solution to recommend (for now). Marilynn Mair recommends buying guitar picks and cutting them down. I am however working with a manufacturer to address this problem, and expect to have an announcement soon.   :Whistling:

----------

Bob Clark, 

darylcrisp, 

Demetrius, 

pheffernan

----------


## Steve Sorensen

:Mandosmiley:

----------

hank, 

JKA

----------


## Jim Garber

> I love that I get to share this experience with my sweetie... 
> She caught me lusting over a Bretrup V8 with my mum.
> I think my mum liked it too. I really wish I could track a nice 
> used one of these at a good price.





> Can someone please help me find this mandolin?
> Maybe the owner would be willing to share their 
> thoughts on it, or maybe even willing to part with it.
> https://brentrupmandolinregistry.wor...08-eclipse-v6/


I have a feeling that Hans only made a few of these. So far I have seen maybe 3 or 4. I wonder if Larry has a list of how many of these he made.

Frankly, that blackburst has been at Carter's for a few months (at least). If this is the dream of yours, why not contact them and work something out?

I assume that you contacted G. Fisher who, I think, owned this one?

----------

Jim Nollman, 

John Eischen, 

Mandobar

----------


## Mandobar

Make an offer.  All they can say is "no".

----------


## darylcrisp

may not be the style you want or like, but here's another one

http://www.guitarrodeo.com/mandolins...-mandolin.html

maybe contact Hans himself, never know, he might have one stashed at home that he hasn't let go of.

d

----------


## Jim Garber

> may not be the style you want or like, but here's another one
> 
> http://www.guitarrodeo.com/mandolins...-mandolin.html
> 
> maybe contact Hans himself, never know, he might have one stashed at home that he hasn't let go of.
> 
> d


OP seems to have ruled out oval holes, or at least he says that. Then again he mentioned bowlbacks but we are not allowing that. I have no control over the ruling board for oval holes on this case and so I refer that matter to the Mandolin Advisory Commission.  :Smile:

----------


## Jim Garber

> I don't like most guitar picks for the same reason, plus the standard shape is not ideal for me. I like the Clayton Ultem picks (NFI) because the material is neutral enough not to absorb highs, and there's a small teardrop-shape for mandolin. But that shape isn't ideal either, at least for me. The small elongated pick by Dogal designed by Ugo Orlandi is excellent, and has recently become available from Strings By Mail (again, NFI). But they're designed for bowlback and the heaviest one is not heavy enough for most carved-instrument players. I suspect Blue Chip would be a good choice, except the shape and weight is all wrong for bowlback mandolin, which is what I play most.


I use jazz picks on mandolin for the most part these days, mostly BCs and ultems and the now discontinued (in the Gibson tradition) black Gibson small teardrops. In the past I also liked John Pearse jazz picks. At one point those were the favorites of Carlo Aonzo on his bowlbacks. Every player tho has his or her preferences and the mandolins and strings also dictate the best tone. 

I tried the Dogal picks and did not like them for bowlbacks or anything else. Not only were they too small for me but they were a bit too soft as I recall.

----------


## Mandobar

I believe the oval hole at Guitar Rodeo was consigned by Hans himself

----------


## Jim Nollman

A few of us over here in the Pacific Northwest have lately been discussing the excellent qualities of the mandolins made by the Canadian Luthier, Alan Beardsell. Haven't heard any mention of him yet, in this thread.

----------


## August Watters

> Every player tho has his or her preferences and the mandolins and strings also dictate the best tone. 
> 
> I tried the Dogal picks and did not like them for bowlbacks or anything else. Not only were they too small for me but they were a bit too soft as I recall.


Fair enough, and agreed, we all find something different. But all of my Italian mandolinist friends I've asked (including Carlo), who have had the opportunity to study Ugo Orlandi's method, report that they departed from Ugo's path only after years of study.

To make an observation about trends: The Dogal picks are standard issue for Ugo's students in the Italian conservatories. To me, that makes them worth an experiment -- to see how the technique and tone develops with this tool. Another trend: looking at mandolin picks left from from the golden era, or representations of them in old books. You see a lot of teardrop shapes, narrower than guitar picks. Weights tend to be light by today's standards. My view is that you don't need a heavy pick to get all the bass response, you just need to cultivate the right hand.

My favorites are a few old picks I found in different places -- weights from .72mm to .86mm. Love the old Pettine picks!

----------


## The Musician's Wife

In an act of final desperation, Demetrius' mandolin search is being put to a vote. Whatever mandolin gets the highest number of votes wins.

​-Gilchrist F5 (used)
-Gilchrist model 3 (used)
-Wiens F5 (used)
-Givens A6 (used)
-Brentrup M23V (used)
-Apitius F5 Classic

----------


## JKA

> In an act of final desperation, Demetrius' mandolin search is being put to a vote. Whatever mandolin gets the highest number of votes wins.
> 
> ​-Gilchrist F5 (used)
> -Gilchrist model 3 (used)
> -Wiens F5 (used)
> -Givens A6 (used)
> -Brentrup M23V (used)
> -Apitius F5 Classic


My vote would be buy a good Eastman and spend the rest on therapy🙂

----------

jaycat, 

John Eischen

----------


## Sheryl McDonald

_>>In an act of final desperation, Demetrius' mandolin search is being put to a vote. Whatever mandolin gets the highest number of votes wins.<<_

That means Demetrius hasn't met the right mandolin yet. :-)

----------


## jaycat

> My vote would be buy a good Eastman and spend the rest on therapy��


Or donate to charity. Enough of all this one-percenter angst.

Sorry to sound preachy, but it is Sunday morning.

----------

Franc Homier Lieu

----------


## UlsterMando

[QUOTE=The Musician's Wife;1510202]



In an act of final desperation, Demetrius' mandolin search is being put to a vote. Whatever mandolin gets the highest number of votes wins.

​-Gilchrist F5 (used)
-Gilchrist model 3 (used)
-Wiens F5 (used)
-Givens A6 (used)
-Brentrup M23V (used)
-Apitius F5 Classic[/

I was wrong, this is not a mando-drama, it's a soap . . .  :Popcorn:

----------


## Josh Levine

I think it's called "first world problems"

----------

Sheryl McDonald

----------


## Demetrius

Isn't that the same thing?

----------


## pops1

Put the names in a hat and draw one out.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## KMaynard

I've been following the thread from the beginning. However, I'm now wondering if this isn't just some sort of publicity stunt. With the addition of the wife and a blog, now vlog, all signs point to something else going on here besides trying to find a mandolin.

Just one bystanders opinion.

----------

Franc Homier Lieu, 

houseworker

----------


## Demetrius

A publicity stunt? Really?

----------


## Denman John

Unplug for the day and go for a walk in the woods alone ...

My vote would be for the Apitius  :Mandosmiley:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

How's that a publicity stunt? That's giving me way too much credit.

It's simple: I want a mandolin, I'm having trouble deciding, and my wife finds it slightly humorous, so (since she's an English teacher and enjoys writing), she decided to share the experience in a blog.

As far as myself, I find everyone on here incredibly helpful, and I love sharing this experience with you guys.

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## Demetrius

Thanks, Denman John. Yeah, that Apitius looks like a killer mandolin. Thanks for the vote.

----------


## George R. Lane

> Can someone please help me find this mandolin?
> Maybe the owner would be willing to share their 
> thoughts on it, or maybe even willing to part with it.
> https://brentrupmandolinregistry.wor...08-eclipse-v6/


I visited Hans in the fall of 2008 and spent a few hours getting a shop tour and playing several of his instruments. I remember that Eclipse because of the tailpiece cover. At that time I wasn't much of a player, but that one had the sweetest tone and if I had the money I would have went home with it. Hans is gracious man to let a beginner play so many mandos and to explain how each of the 8 instruments were made and why he chose the woods for them. I explained that
I would not be able to purchase one of his mandolins, as I just was starting a new business and he said that didn't matter because he was happy just to talk about his mandolin and get any feedback from either a beginner or a professional.It just a shame he had to stop building. It is a great loss to the musical world.

----------

darylcrisp, 

Demetrius

----------


## Steve-o

I vote for the Wiens.  

Ignore those negative comments.  If folks are jealous or cynical, they should leave this thread alone.  I've enjoyed it.

----------

Demetrius, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Jim Garber

Brentrup M23V (used)  that is my vote. 

My reasons (if you need them):
I believe that you mentioned him as a builder more than any otherhe is no longer building vs. the others who are still buildingI am prejudiced in his favor as an owner of one of his and my favorite mandolin

Does the predictor of the most votes win something? BTW, Demetrius, I think you might consider a Mix/NewMad mandolin so you can play in the shower.  :Smile:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## JKA

After therapy I would buy the Apitius (keeping the Eastman as a beater) because:
They sound great
They look traditional
They're made by a great luthier 
You won't lose out financially
They have kudos
They are niche 
You might discover it's the one 
You might choose to fall in love with it
You'll become part of its journey and history (a copy of your wife's blog should accompany its travels)
You'll have fun playing it
You'll be inspired

Having read through the reasons why, I've just realised this applies to any of the aforementioned mandolins...oops

----------

Demetrius, 

UlsterMando

----------


## pops1

Without them all in my hand to play for hours and hours I would find this a hard decision too. Even if you call each seller and have them play into the phone and use a headphone on your phone for the best possible sound (however bad that is) it would still be a hard decision. You have chosen some wonderful mandolins and I believe you or anyone here would be very glad to have any one of them. Other than my post of the hat, you could play pin the tail on the mandolin and have some, if not a conscious, choice in the matter. Good luck.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## 9lbShellhamer

My vote is to buy none of them.  :Grin: 

You clearly have the funds for the right mandolin whatever it is, but it's impossible to gauge which mandolin is your..._soulmate,_ without playing it. Mandolins from even the same builder can sound different. 

Taking a trip to Nashville and hanging at Carter's would be my vote. Wait until one BLOWS YOUR MIND, then buy it. Those are sure fire odds of buying, "the one", otherwise to be honest it's really russian roulette. 

Quite often I've made a trip to Carter to play one, and it thoroughly underwhelmed me, only to have another I didn't suspect blow my socks off, then I go back a year later, only to have the make and model that once blew my mind feel lackluster while another mandolin seems explosive. The point here being, its about the individual mandolin in hand, not only the builder. 


Enjoy the journey.  :Mandosmiley:

----------

Billy Packard, 

red7flag

----------


## red7flag

I totally agree with Troy.  What you get from this thread is the logical reasons a person would pick what ever instrument THEY prefer.  But, as Troy stated, what you are looking for is a soul mate, not the soul mate of others.  I would just continue the search.  I have always been told if I have to think about it, it is the wrong decision.  How do you know?  You just reach in your gut and see if it feels right.  My only mandolin buys that I regret were logical ones.  But in the end, if it does not feel right, it just doesn't stick.  This is why had to buy an Ellis for the second time.  I listened to my defective reasoning and sold my first one.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Steve-o

I totally agree with you Troy and Tony. I think the voting concept was just for the fun of it (right Demetrius?).  If it were my choice, I'd make a trip to Nashville just like you suggest and spend a long time playing as many high end mandolins as possible.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Bob Clark

I agree with Troy, as well.  If you buy based on this poll, I think you will be back in the market in no time.  I think it would be best to spend some time traveling to a few stores, playing a bunch of mandolins and letting the right one find you.  In time, it will find you.  Don't rush it.  Really, you _can't_ rush it.  It happens when it happens.

Best wishes for a successful search,

Bob

----------


## darylcrisp

OK

D,  buy my Northfield F5s. Take the remainder funds, and take your mom and wife on a nice quiet vacation, some old world town near an ocean. No computer, no cell phones, and take the NF. Play it, fall in love. Come home and soon you will be hanging out with Mike M, Emory L, and the other members in Michigan. You will advance into the Artist series and put my old NF in the classifieds, well worn and broken in , it will be grabbed up quickly. We will watch you in video as you play your englemann top, 5 bar Artist model. And it will sound great.

Nothing to fix, nothing to wonder about, you will finally be in your zone.

**and if you go against my advice, I vote Apitius**

d

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Wow, some incredible votes here and definite fine words of wisdom. 
I plan to respond to each suggestion, and comment on here for I am extremely 
grateful for the time you've taken to post. Believe it or not, it helps and it makes it fun. 
I love how's some of you are posting your votes and stating the reason why you 
are voting for those specific builders. I loved the Hans Brentrup story.... Thank you so much for that. I have a story that I will share with you all of how I came 
Across the guitar that I've been exclusively been my #1 acoustic guitar for 10 years. 
I know it's regarding a guitar but I promise the story coincides with this  Mando search. 
Hey at least it's not a banjo story. Lol

----------


## Demetrius

I believe voting wise Brentrup and Apitius are in the lead.
These are two of the nicest guys in the world of lutherie...

----------


## Josh Levine

> OK
> 
> D,  buy my Northfield F5s. Take the remainder funds, and take your mom and wife on a nice quiet vacation, some old world town near an ocean. No computer, no cell phones, and take the NF. Play it, fall in love. Come home and soon you will be hanging out with Mike M, Emory L, and the other members in Michigan. You will advance into the Artist series and put my old NF in the classifieds, well worn and broken in , it will be grabbed up quickly. We will watch you in video as you play your englemann top, 5 bar Artist model. And it will sound great.
> 
> Nothing to fix, nothing to wonder about, you will finally be in your zone.
> 
> **and if you go against my advice, I vote Apitius**
> 
> d


... D has this thread flared up your own MAS?

----------


## William Smith

Its too bad about the Gilchrist, just wondering why you just didn't fix the binding and do the setup yourself,or had someone else do it for ya, every high end mandolin I bought/traded for needed a setup and its not all that hard to do it right, My 82 Gil I bought was terrible and my thinking at the time was why in the H did they send this to me like that, well I refit the bridge, adjusted the rod checked out spacing and bam, Heck of a mandolin. Maybe you already said and for that sorry but this is a long thread! I even got a radius fretboard mandolin with a flat bridge/saddle awful man, just changed it out. Now a dream. You mentioned that the Gil needed "waking" up or played well with the correct setup it would have been like night and day. Is the Gil back at Gryphons yet, to late to set her up yet? Just curious I guess.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## LadysSolo

It can happen with any instrument - I had it happen with my current favorite guitar - I went to play two guitars, and one "spoke to me" as soon as I played it. I played some others, and the favorite was out of my price range. The second favorite was in my price range, and had the guy not taken my offer I would have been okay with #2, but he took my offer on the favorite, and I smile every time I play it. I feel the same about my mandolins, but they all have "grown on me," so to speak. I now feel the same about them too, they have become "soulmates."

----------

Demetrius

----------


## CES

Can't recall if anyone has mentioned Giacomel yet. I played one at Gruhn's a couple of summers ago, and it could have been my "the one." It just came alive in my hands and blew my doors off. My wife, who's a musician who sings and plays piano but really could care less about my little portable instruments, paid attention to that one (it was the only one that really turned her head that day, between 3 stores and a couple dozen mandos). Then she saw the look on my face and was actually afraid we were going to leave with it. Believe me, I was crunching numbers like crazy. Unfortunately, my budget was only conducive to the National RM-1 that I took home from Artisan Guitars  :Wink: . Don't let the funky style throw you, they (the Giacomels) look positively gorgeous in person.

I agree that a trip to Nashville or maybe Elderly may be the best route for you. That Saturday was an education for me, and I'll totally agree that I was unimpressed in a couple I went expecting to love, and very impressed with a few I wouldn't have thought twice about had I not gotten them into my hands.

This MAS thing is a BEAST!

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

And just to think, I lived in Nashville for 7 yrs and of course I wasn't on a search for a mandolin that entire time.
In fact when I was 16 had bought a cheap Washburn mandolin while I was living in New England, just to mess around on.
I sold everything to move to Nashville and almost immediately revisited the mandolin. I was really just starting out 
I rem bought the prototype Gibson F-9. Id go to the factory in Opry Mills and watch these mandolins being built and I was a kid in a candy store. Everyone there was so nice to me, and would let me try every mandolin they had. I rem seeing Nickel Creek doing a cmt appearance there, was anyone else there? Id spend a lot of time at Gruhn back then too but the selection wasn't what it is today. Maybe it was and they just had it all upstairs. I just wasn't plugged into that world enough then to know the difference. I rem they brought me upstairs and Ricky Skaggs was up there, and I was like hey where are the stratocasters at? I wish Carters had been around back then, but they were working at Gruhn still. Then again I would've mostly been looking at the strats. Anyhow I was telling my buddy about the latest mandolin video from Carters of the Gilchrist Model 3. Ive been eyeing that on the website and they finally put up a video. The cool thing is that was my first mandolin teacher "Marc Macglashan".. He's the guy in that video, he's still as awesome as ever. I still have all those old lessons on video that I recorded with my camcorder. Im just rambling right now, but all these comments about visiting Nashville has left me very nostalgic. Ive been back since but it was always just a quick through when I was on tour. Anyhow keep all the votes coming, and really explain why you think thats a good mandolin to go for. 
Thanks,
Dem

----------


## Charles E.

Have you considered the new mandolins that Steve Sorensen is building? He is very much inspired by Hans Bentrup. His new "F" models are spectacular to look at and I have heard them played at the IBMA, first class all the way.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ensen-VX/page2

----------

Mandobar

----------


## JAK

The Gil is not on Gryphon's website. Did you send it back there Demetrius?

----------


## Jeff Mando

Certainly, a lot of fine builders mentioned, but if a Gilchrist was in reach, that would be my first choice. (besides a Loar, which I can't afford)  Next up, would be a Dude.  After that which ever one sounded best.  That's just me, the OP is going for something that he has in his mind and those might not be his choices.....

----------


## darylcrisp

> ... D has this thread flared up your own MAS?


no, not at all. I find it a fun thread, its kinda neat seeing/hearing about all these mandos I know i'll never own.

I especially enjoy seeing/reading about Brentrups and the Apitius models-I like how they sound and look.

I'm real happy with my Collings and Northfield, I've been on a trading spree with acoustic guitars this past month and I just put a deposit on a Jason Bowerman koa Weissenborn I found last week(been looking for one of these for 6 years), I put one of my mandos up for sale recently, but I really don't want it to go, its taken me a couple to get where I'm at and I just really like and enjoy both.so I've listed a few guitars to sell, so if either of those sell, everything else stays(well, for this week at least-lol).

d

----------


## Atlanta Mando Mike

I'd by the Gil F5, send it to one of the top guys to get it Really set up with the right bridge, set up, fix whatever binding it needs- Michael Heiden, will Kimble, David Harvey at Gibson, someone like that.  You liked the mandolin, give it a year.  Really give yourself time to bond with it.  That's my vote.  Good luck

----------


## Demetrius

These are all incredible and honestly it's helping me zero down on some things I haven't really focused on enough. A very big thanks to all, keep'em coming!

----------


## Demetrius

My wife believes she has convinced me that I will be able think more clearly about this while doing the dishes lol.
Yeh ok sweetie... Ha

----------


## red7flag

MMMM...  I wonder if that is why I get the dishes so often.  My wife is a cleaver one she is.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## pops1

Good Grief, I just finished the dishes, WHAT HAS THIS THREAD BECOME????

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Hey where has Mandobar gone to? 
I knew something felt like it was missing in this thread...

----------


## Demetrius

If this turned up in the classifieds I believe this thread would come to an end,
and Id start a new thread called "the search has ended"...

----------


## darylcrisp

I just cooked dinner, AND did the dishes!

hummm

d

----------


## pops1

Some how me thinks there is another side to a mandolin players life that has not previously come to light, sparkling clean light.

----------


## Demetrius

What do you mean pops?

----------


## Steve-o

> If this turned up in the classifieds I believe this thread would come to an end,
> and Id start a new thread called "the search has ended"...


Hey now! That Eclipse was not on the voter ballot.  Is this a write-in?  :Whistling: 

(It does have some real mojo in the looks department).

----------


## Demetrius

Yeh, I didn't even bother putting it on there cause Ive posted an ad in the classifieds looking for that mandolin.
Nothing!

- - - Updated - - -

Ive narrowed it down to 2 mandolins...  :Smile:

----------


## Steve-o

> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Ive narrowed it down to 2 mandolins...


And you're going to leave us hanging on which two?

----------


## Demetrius

The Final 2
1- Gilchrist
2- Wiens

----------

Steve-o

----------


## Josh Levine

Model 3 or model 5?

I feel like if you liked the Gil and want one that is ready a recent model 3 makes sense.

----------


## JeffD

> If this turned up in the classifieds I believe this thread would come to an end,
> and Id start a new thread called "the search has ended"...


This search has ended. The next one has begun.  :Smile:

----------


## Demetrius

Both mandolins are F's
Gilchrist older
Wiens newer

----------

Billy Packard

----------


## Mark Seale

Gilchrist and knowing that he will be at Carter's in the next couple of months to deliver new instruments, I'd have the master tend to his own work.

----------


## George R. Lane

There are two Gilchrist's in the classifieds. Demetrius, I hear them calling you.

----------


## barry

I'm really enjoying this thread since I don't (currently) have MAS.  It allows me to view the madness objectively.

Demetrius,

Come on now!  Think about this.  Considering the fact that you have had some fine instruments in the past, and considering how obsessed you are with finding the perfect instrument right now......It tell me that, whatever you buy, it will not be the last one you buy, sell, or trade.

In that case,  buy one of the Gilchrists.  There is an established market for them.  It will be the easiest to move along when it's time.  And believe me, that time will come.

----------


## Demetrius

Are the Gilchrist that he's bringing to Nashville all special orders? are they spoken for?

----------


## Larry S Sherman

> Can anyone chime in who has or had a M23V and how it changed tonally from when you first received it?


My experience is that a M23V will take some time to break in, but once that happens it will be night and day. I'm not trying to sell anyone on this...just my experience. My M23VB is the best mandolin I've ever played, and I've played other really great M23Vs.

Regarding the particular Brentrup M23V being discussed...for some reason I feel like it is destined to end up with me at some point. I'm hoping someone will buy t before that happens.

Larry

----------


## Demetrius

That's so interesting Larry cause I feel like the F5c you have is destined to be back with me.  :Smile: 
You sell that to me and you can have the M23v.

----------


## Larry S Sherman

> That's so interesting Larry cause I feel like the F5c you have is destined to be back with me. 
> You sell that to me and you can have the M23v.


Lol  :Smile:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Mark Seale

> Are the Gilchrist that he's bringing to Nashville all special orders? are they spoken for?


http://www.gilchristmandolins.com/current/

I think one 5 is unspoken for.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Ok well as fate would have it, the specific Gilchrist F5 I was reconsidering is not going to work out.
Sooooooo..... The Search continues!!!!!!!

----------


## Jeff Mando

I'm sensing some parallels -- basically the search to attain nirvana......a lifetime dedication and determination toward a goal.  Well, not quite a lifetime -- just 12 pages, so far........ :Mandosmiley:  :Cool:  :Grin:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## UlsterMando

Schmergel Devastator ?




.

----------

Demetrius, 

Josh Levine

----------


## Billy Packard

(Music please)  
Oh when those mandos, 
go marching in, 
oh when the mandos go marrrching in,
I wanna seeeee what he chooses, 
when those mandos go marching in.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Larry really could put an end to all of this...  :Wink:

----------


## darylcrisp

D
whichever mando you end up with, you absolutely must put it in one of these cases:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...se-at-elderlys

 :Grin:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Daryl, I know what you're doing lol... You know that once I find a mandolin, the search will continue for a case lol.
Believe it or not I have three mandolin cases and no mandolin... I have a beautiful brown calton case with
vintage green interior.  that is where I'll house the new/old mandolin

Latest mandolin list:
1.Brentrup M23v unless Larry Sherman sell me his/my F5c lol
2.Wiens awesomness model mandolin
3.Gilchrist model 3 if Carter responds to my email offer
5.And I think at this point Im still gonna get a Givens A6 either way.
Im obsessed with them but it doesn't have a truss rod and it would 
never handle the extreme climate changes of travel.

The Campanella at the music emporium was gone by the time I went to call and make an offer.
How long did that last? like 5 min? ha.. Also to whoever bought that mandolin, you stink.. but Im happy for you anyway..

----------

Billy Packard

----------


## darylcrisp

> Daryl, I know what you're doing lol... You know that once I find a mandolin, the search will continue for a case lol.
> Believe it or not I have three mandolin cases and no mandolin... I have a beautiful brown calton case with
> vintage green interior. 
> 
> Latest mandolin list:
> 1.Brentrup M23v unless Larry Sherman sell me his/my F5c lol
> 2.Wiens awesomness model mandolin
> 3.Gilchrist model 3 if Carter responds to my email offer
> 5.And I think at this point Im still gonna get a Givens A6 either way.
> ...


http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...-of-a-mandolin
the thought immediately crossed my mind upon watching it cross over to SOLD
Demetrius!

----------


## Demetrius

That thing looked perfect Daryl... I think whoever bought it should read this thread and sell it right over to me. haha!

----------


## Mandobar

I have one of Joe's A models.  You'd be hard pressed to find a better mandolin- anywhere.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Yeh Im bummed I missed out on that...

----------


## Mandobar

Joe was Larry Smart's apprentice for two years 

http://acousticmusicworks.com/mandol...ectacular-4750

This is a great price for this.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## pops1

Demetrius, there is another model 3 in the classifieds here for less than the one at Carters.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/100872#100872

----------

Demetrius

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Another morning, another new video to share:

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...ave-a-mandolin

Onward we go...

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Canoedad

This thread is a reality TV show

 :Popcorn:

----------

Demetrius, 

Sheryl McDonald, 

Steve-o

----------


## sgarrity

I've never played a Campanella but the videos of them have always sounded great.  I love the aesthetic!

- - - Updated - - -




> This thread is a reality TV show



Naw, we're good.  Nobody's flipped a table yet or pulled anyone else's hair..... :Laughing:

----------

Billy Packard, 

Demetrius

----------


## sblock

If this thread is not actually some kind of a put-on -- as some have speculated, because it's so absurd -- then I think it's time for some tough love, here! So here goes. Yes, we all love mandolins here on the Cafe, but most of us can only dream of being able to drop five figures or more on the purchase of a truly high-end instrument.  And by the time any of us are spending in excess of $10,000 on the next mandolin, we tend to be rather accomplished players, with "educated ears," a great deal of accumulated knowledge about luthiers, and a whole lot of personal listening experience under our belt. But not you.

Now, along you come, with -- seemingly -- *a whole lot more money than common sense*. Or playing experience, for that matter. You say you want to buy a really high-end mandolin, and ask the MC for input, much of which you seem to have ignored. And you agonize endlessly, unable to make up your mind. You don't even _own_ a mandolin, and now there's an awful video of you lying in bed and whining to your wife about that, which she posted.  Most of us would be would be truly embarrassed to have something like that show up in a public forum.  And most of us would not be reduced to zero mandolins, yet attempting to buy some of the highest-priced ones out there. To me, you seem more like an obsessed collector with an impressive bankroll than an impressive player. A real mandolin player who can afford an instrument in the $10,000+ range would never get down to zero mandolins, because he or she would likely own one or more lesser instruments before springing for a Gilchrist, Wiens, Brentrup, Nugget, or what-have-you.

Then there's the profound silliness associated with your recent (failed) purchase -- and return -- of a fabulous, $16,000+ Gilchrist F5 from Gryphon Instruments, one of the leading shops in our nation.  You bought this mandolin without even listening to it, or so it seems.  And you promptly returned it because -- what?!? -- you were shocked, SHOCKED, that the binding was loose in some places, the finish had some crazing, and the setup was sub-optimal.  You very clearly don't understand high-end mandolins.  Lots of these have finish crazing; it makes little difference. Loose binding is easily re-glued for a negligible cost compared to the mandolin.  And the setup?! Well, the setup is so easy to fix that any competent mandolin luthier, and many of us players as well, are able to adjust this to perfection.  Not only that, but according to you, Gryphon offered to remedy these trivial issues, but you decided against that because you'd developed cold feet, or buyers' remorse, or some other silly feeling.  Oh, for goodness' sake, man!  

So now you are back to searching, and endless (and mostly pointless) online speculation.  Earlier in this thread, I advised you to educate your head and ears FIRST before plunking down such a thick wad of cash.  Very clearly, you lack that education. And you failed to heed my advice.  I advised you to buy a plane ticket to Nashville, and visit Carter Vintage Guitars and Gruhns Guitars, and play every mandolin in their shops (over 200, I reckon).  There, you will find Gilchrists, Altmans, Hendersons, Wiens, Brentrups, Heidens, Nuggets, Ellis's, Duffs, Kimbles, etc., _GALORE_.  And scads of Gibsons, including the RS DMM and the occasional Lloyd Loar-signed Gibson F5 from 1922-4.  You will be able to get that education that you very desperately need. _ It will be lots of fun, besides!_ And the cost of this little field trip, at around $1,000, will simply pale in comparison to what you're thinking about spending on an instrument.  So think of it as a kind of "buyer's insurance," or perhaps as an investment in your musical education. A wise investment.

*Never, ever buy a high-end mandolin without hearing and seeing it first.* Unless you really, really know what you're doing, that is.  And you don't.

I realize this sounds mean (sorry), but I'm trying to be honest here, and to reiterate some good advice.  Your impetuous -- and frankly, embarrassing -- 'journey' to this point has raised a lot of eyebrows here on the Mandoln Cafe, I can assure you. Keep most of your money in your pocket until you are more sure about what you're doing.  And while you're seeking that ultimate instrument (ain't no such thing, I reckon'), you might consider buying a "lesser" mandolin just to tide you over -- if nothing else, so you'll stop making those awful, whining videos that your wife posts. Most of us here would be deliriously happy plunking along on a Kentucky, Eastman, Weber, The Loar, Northfield, or whatever until The One happens to come along.

There is MAS, and then there's *MAS*.  Tough love, indeed.   :Popcorn:

----------

f5joe, 

Franc Homier Lieu, 

houseworker, 

JKA, 

KMaynard, 

Manfred Hacker, 

Rich Benson, 

Upis Land

----------


## darylcrisp

Dem
have you noticed the Monteleone F at Mandomutt

http://www.mandomutt.com/products-pa...leone-f-5-fern

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Josh Levine

:Popcorn:

----------

Demetrius, 

Sheryl McDonald

----------


## Billy Packard

Man, sblock, you sure are a grouch.  

Don't read it if it bothers you.  

Otherwise, as the old ones say, "If you don't have something nice to say don't say nothing at all."

----------

Atlanta Mando Mike, 

darylcrisp, 

Demetrius, 

Hallmark498, 

Steve-o, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Atlanta Mando Mike

Sblock, I met Demetrius at a house concert probably 6 years ago in Atlanta.  At that point, he had 2 great, very high quality mandolins in the 5 digit range-So he is experienced in mandolins. And he was mandolin crazy then as well. He is a good player, was part of a band that toured so he is an experienced player.  

I've bought multiple very high end mandolins without playing first and just payed shipping back multiple times and others have done the same to me.  That's the point of buying on approval.  In general, the vast majority of what you wrote is you making assumptions that aren't true-many experienced players and collectors buy and sell without playing first. If that weren't the case, why have the classifieds at all?  That's where I've bought and sold many mandolins btw, including the 2 I own right now-each without playing first.  It's also not much different than having one built really as you can't play those first.

If the powers that be want to kick him off and stop this then let them, that's their right-but you don't speak for everyone here.  Plenty of people relate to the guy, even if he has the most aggressive case of MAS I've ever seen to the point of caricature.  My wife actually has subscribed to his wife's blog because she sees similarities to my own bouts of MAS (Albeit less aggressive).  

I think he's being real and don't see the point of bad-mouthing him.  And even if not, who cares, its entertaining.  Are you really looking for another thread on if Loars are worth it or what spruce is best?

----------

Billy Packard, 

darylcrisp, 

Demetrius, 

Frank Russell, 

sgarrity, 

Steve-o, 

UlsterMando

----------


## darylcrisp

Sblock

not fair, not nice

d

----------

Billy Packard, 

Demetrius, 

sgarrity, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Hallmark498

Slighted

----------


## Mark Wilson

> *Never, ever buy a high-end mandolin without hearing and seeing it first.* Unless you really, really know what you're doing, that is.


In my case even playing it first doesn't guarantee results.

I think most of us have a tone/sound in our head, that we've heard in recordings or elsewhere. 

And in looking for it, fail to take into account that a good part of the 'sound' we seek is only achievable thru a better pickers hands.  I could record a clip with John Reischman's Loar and no one here would go on about the mandolin sounding special.

A better or best mandolin is a goal, but I acknowledge I might not detect special from ordinary after entering the middle/upper tier of well made mandolins.

Not saying that is at play here, just adding my 2 cents.

----------

Malin

----------


## Demetrius

Daryl,
 I did see the Monteleone, it's beautiful...
Thanks for the heads up kind Sir, it's much appreciated

----------


## Demetrius

Has anyone tried the 2014 F-5 Duff at Carter?

Also does anyone here feel that daddario  j62 strings could 
Inhibit the sound of un unplayed instrument with a rather thick top?
When I played this Brentrup it had J 62's on. I've never used anything 
other than 74's and 75's so I have no experience with 62's.  I felt the 
mandolin sounded like it wasn't transferring enough vibration to the top, 
could that gauge string contribute to this?

1.Wiens
2.Brentrup
3.Givens

----------


## Austin Bob

> *Never, ever buy a high-end mandolin without hearing and seeing it first.* Unless you really, really know what you're doing, that is.  And you don't.


I'm going to ignore the rest of your post, but I will comment on this part. Anyone who is buying a high end mandolin has little choice in the matter, especially if you want a new one. In most cases you end up buying the reputation of the builder more than anything. Any builder that can charge more than 10K for a new mandolin likely does so because their work is respected and in demand. I challenge you to find a large selection of new, *A list* mandolin to go play. You won't find them, because they aren't available.

I bought my Gibson sight unseen. I put my trust in TMS after making multiple phone calls and trading many emails. When I did receive it, I had 48 hours to play it in my own home, in the room where I usually play, and without the worry of having someone stand over me while I played it. 

I know this thread is about used mandolins for the most part. But if you think the only way to buy a mandolin is by the method you suggest, I think you might be surprised at just how many high end mandolins are bought on approval, without the benefit of playing them first.

----------

Demetrius, 

Hallmark498, 

red7flag, 

sgarrity, 

UlsterMando

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

The Duff at Carter? I figure you're talking about this one.?.http://www.cartervintage.com/mandopa...dopage.html#14 

I haven't tried that one, but like that, my own Duff F5 is a 2014 build that originally came through Carter Vintage. I like it a lot. 
Whether or not it would be up to your standards though, is anybody's guess. 

I don't agree with all of the tough-love advice given in a previous post, but I do wholeheartedly agree with one point. *Get yourself a beater.* Enjoy yourself. Take the pressure off of this ultimate-mandolin-of-a-lifetime-purchase.

----------

sblock

----------


## sblock

> Sblock, I met Demetrius at a house concert probably 6 years ago in Atlanta.  At that point, he had 2 great, very high quality mandolins in the 5 digit range-So he is experienced in mandolins. And he was mandolin crazy then as well. He is a good player, was part of a band that toured so he is an experienced player.  
> 
> I've bought multiple very high end mandolins without playing first and just payed shipping back multiple times and others have done the same to me.  That's the point of buying on approval.  In general, the vast majority of what you wrote is you making assumptions that aren't true-many experienced players and collectors buy and sell without playing first. If that weren't the case, why have the classifieds at all?  That's where I've bought and sold many mandolins btw, including the 2 I own right now-each without playing first.  It's also not much different than having one built really as you can't play those first.
> 
> If the powers that be want to kick him off and stop this then let them, that's their right-but you don't speak for everyone here.  Plenty of people relate to the guy, even if he has the most aggressive case of MAS I've ever seen to the point of caricature.  My wife actually has subscribed to his wife's blog because she sees similarities to my own bouts of MAS (Albeit less aggressive).  
> 
> I think he's being real and don't see the point of bad-mouthing him.  And even if not, who cares, its entertaining.  Are you really looking for another thread on if Loars are worth it or what spruce is best?


Several reactions:

1) You described Demetrius as "mandolin crazy."  Yes, precisely:  _I think you just nailed it_.  He _is_ acting crazy, and not very rationally.  If you listened to those whining videos, you might realize just _how_ crazy.  Give me a break.

2) I find it quite believable that he's an experienced player of stringed instruments. Guitar, perhaps?  But he seems rather naive (but enthusiastic, nevertheless) about mandolins, to my way of thinking.  As I wrote, I think he has more money than common sense.  There are lots of people like that in Silicon Valley, where I live, so I speak from experience.

3) It is one thing to buy a mandolin for a few thousand dollars on approval without first hearing and seeing it, first hand. Many of us do that all the time.  I know that I have, myself. I have even returned a mandolin that didn't meet my expectations. I agree with you that this is perfectly normal. And thank goodness for the MC Classified Ads (a national treasure)! But it is quite another thing to spend $16,000 or more dollars on something, sight unseen.  In _that_ lofty price range, you'd be well advised to make the pilgrimage to hear the instrument in person before making the investment. The cost of such a voyage is less than 10% of the value of the instrument, after all.  I stand by my advice to go on a "voyage of discovery" to Nashville.  Or to wherever the coveted mandolin may be.  And 'covet' would seem to be the operative word, here!

4) NO one, and least of all myself, is suggesting for an instant that "powers that be ... kick him off and stop this"!! Just because I happen to think Demetrius is going about all this in a foolish way, I have never suggested for one moment that he (nor anyone else) be silenced.  Wherever did you get that from?!  I think you may be jumping the gun, here. It's not very fair to attribute things to me that I never said or wrote.

5) You describe that "he has the most aggressive case of MAS I've ever seen to the point of caricature."  Yes, _I think you nailed it_, once again.  Many of us are slack-jawed at his behavior.  Some folks thought it might be a complete put-on. Others have described it as "reality TV."  But I very much doubt that lots of people "relate to the guy."  At least, they don't relate to the part about having around $20,000 to spend, and an apparent need to rush to judgment.  And they don't hide under the sheets in bed and whine about not having a mandolin. Most of us operate a little differently than that:  I suspect that you do, too, Mike.

6) Yes, I agree with you that there seems to be a lot of entertainment value in this thread, which has now grown to over 300 posts!  Part of it is incredulity. Part of it is _schadenfreude_.  Part of it is _voyeurism_. Part of it is fantasy. Part of it is vicariousness. Etc. And yup, it sure beats discussing if "Loars are worth it," "What spruce is best," and other forms of flogging-the-dead-horse.  You certainly raise an excellent point, there!

7) I have NEVER claimed to speak for everyone on the MC. _Heaven forfend!_  But I'd wager you that a good many MC readers feel much as I do.  You have only to look that all the "thanks" after some of my posts to realize that.  And I concede that some others may feel more as you do, in that they "relate" to something or other in Demetrius' quest. And that's perfectly OK by me.  I just think he's going about this thing all wrong, that's all.  Like a crazy man with an obsession, in fact.

8) Hey, I wasn't "bad-mouthing" Demetrius.  There were no _ad hominen_ attacks. I didn't use any nasty or rude language. I politely disagreed, and, while perhaps more forceful than some, my message is clear and honest.

Let the games continue...

----------

f5joe, 

Franc Homier Lieu, 

JKA, 

LadysSolo

----------


## red7flag

While I would not be proceeding the way Demetrius is, I have found that he did raise a long dormant MAS issue of my own.  I am not sure if I should thank or condemn him for it.  JK.  I will address that MAS in another thread.

----------


## sgarrity

I've been on this forum since the late 1990s (remember ASCII tab??).  Trust me when I say there have been PLENTY of MAS afflicted characters through here over the years.  There's a fine line between passion and obsession although many would argue that passion is nothing but obsession for the lazy!  I have personally bought, sold and traded more high quality mandolins than I can remember and I don't hold a candle to some of our other forum members.  It's part of the journey and part of the fun.

I've met Demetrius and shared a few tunes with him.  He's a real musician and a VERY capable mandolin player.  Lighten up and have some fun.  Or don't....there are plenty of other threads you can comment on.......

----------

UlsterMando

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## sblock

> I've been on this forum since the late 1990s (remember ASCII tab??).  Trust me when I say there have been PLENTY of MAS afflicted characters through here over the years.  There's a fine line between passion and obsession although many would argue that passion is nothing but obsession for the lazy!  I have personally bought, sold and traded more high quality mandolins than I can remember and I don't hold a candle to some of our other forum members.  It's part of the journey and part of the fun.
> 
> I've met Demetrius and shared a few tunes with him.  He's a real musician and a VERY capable mandolin player.  Lighten up and have some fun.  Or don't....there are plenty of other threads you can comment on.......


How ironic that Atlanta Mike wrote in to tell me that I was somehow trying to kick Demetrius off this thread (nothing of the kind was said), and you, Shaun, are now suggesting that I ought to leave the thread myself.  Yow: that sets off my hypocrisy detector faster than today's politicians. How about the idea that there is plenty of room under this tent for all sorts of opinions? -- and that includes disagreements!  Please stop trying to silence your fellow MC aficionados.  

I didn't write that Demetrius was not a capable musician, either!  What careless reading. (I have no information about that one way or the other, and besides, I would not be inclined to demean any fellow musician about their playing, regardless.)  In fact, what I wrote was this:  "I find it quite believable that he's an experienced player of stringed instruments. Guitar, perhaps? But he seems rather naive (but enthusiastic, nevertheless) about mandolins, to my way of thinking. As I wrote, I think he has more money than common sense."  

I stick by that.  The proof is in the pudding.

----------

Franc Homier Lieu, 

houseworker

----------


## Demetrius

Everyone,  

Just smile... It's summer, we don't have to shovel snow. Lol! There much to be happy about. Honestly, I didn't start this thread to be political by any stretch, and certainly didn't mean to get under anyone's skin. I figure there's lots of threads to read through and it's just as easy to skip over mine if it makes anyone's blood boil. Personally I'm enjoying the process of finding a mandolin. Yeh I'm a little dramatic - no, very dramatic - and have a bad case of MAS. So what? That's my choice... My wife and I are having fun with this mandolin search. 
And thank you all for being a part of it... I welcome any and all comments, and see it all as positive movement in my search.
Good day,
Dem

----------

Billy Packard, 

darylcrisp, 

Steve-o, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Hallmark498

PLEASE!

Don't feed the trolls.

----------

sgarrity

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## Franc Homier Lieu

> PLEASE!
> 
> Don't feed the trolls.


The idea that sblock is trolling is ridiculous. Not as ridiculous as that blog and that video, but pretty ridiculous.

----------

f5joe, 

houseworker, 

JKA, 

jmkatcher, 

Jstring

----------


## Jstring

Adam Steffey finds a Collings A or a standard Northfield to be perfectly acceptable...

Andy Statman's Gibson A met his needs for many years...

David Benedict does amazing things on a Flatiron every Monday.....

Jesse McReynolds revolutionized cross picking on a Stiver....

I could go on but I think you get my point....

Demetrius plays mandolin in a fairly well-known band (Tripping Lily, right?) and doesn't even own a mandolin?
Man, go for a jog, take a cold shower, go buy a mandolin, walk away from this thread, and make some music....

----------

Bob Clark, 

Franc Homier Lieu

----------


## JKA

Demetious, you are bonkers but in a very positive way. What's great is that you know it too. I've never been much for soap operas myself but but I think you've come up with a classic. I for one am hanging on to the bitter end to see how this resolves...So, thank you Dem for starting this fabulous thread. I'm a little unsure at the moment as to what's in pole position on the mandolin front though...an update please? (You still needed the tough love talk though)

----------


## Russ Donahue

I am enjoying D's search, and glad that he is sharing it with us. Along the way I've been learning about mandolins, their makers and their players. And about some of our colleagues here at the Cafe.

Thanks Demetrius!

----------

darylcrisp, 

Demetrius, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Demetrius

Wiens F-5
Brentrup M23V
Givens F-5
Givens A6

----------


## George R. Lane

What really irritates me the most is every time I log onto the Cafe, this is the first thread I look for. This is like watching an accident is slow motion and not being able to look away. Demetrius keep posting and I will wait till the very end. Hopefully you won't decide on one of those Vietnamese mandolins.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Hey, all you passionate mandolin folks,

I've actually come to really enjoy this forum myself...and wrote a few of my own thoughts about passion/obsession in a new post on my blog:

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/home/the-wife-speaks

I also have to testify to the fact that my husband is playing and making music everyday on his beloved guitar... He's not the mandolinist for Tripping Lily - he's the guitarist. He just loves the mandolin in a different way, and sometimes it brings out the nut in him. A crazy, passionate nut that this lady considers herself lucky to have as a partner...

Kate

----------

Billy Packard, 

darylcrisp, 

Steve-o, 

UlsterMando

----------


## UlsterMando

Demetrius and a lot of other members including me are having fun 
talking about mandolins. Isn't that what the Cafe is here for ? 

If I'm not interested in a thread I just look at another one, there are 
plenty of alternatives, so I say . . .

Continue the search . . .           :Mandosmiley:

----------

Billy Packard, 

darylcrisp, 

Demetrius, 

Russ Donahue, 

Steve-o

----------


## barry

Hey Demetrius,

I just listened to some YouTube videos of your band.  I enjoyed it. Very nice.
 Does your mandolin style mirror your guitar style?  If so, I'm surprised you got rid of the Dudenbostel.  I would have thought that would be a great fit.  What was it lacking that you wanted?

----------


## Demetrius

Hi Barry,
  Thanks for chiming in, and thanks for listening to some of TL's music. We've been on a hiatus for a bit and each partaking in some solo projects.

    As far as the Dudenbostel, I'm such a huge fan of Lynn's work. Such a fan... The particular Dudenbostel that I had for a bit was a fantastic mandolin, and  this only speaks for #14 but I felt when playing up the neck it just lost it. There was a good size hump up there and it made it a bit splatty. Best low end in the world, and even high end in first and second position was gold. Past that it just didn't give... It also didn't cut very well in Jams, but recorded so beautifully. Lynn doesn't make a bad mandolin period!

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## Robb Todd

I can relate to Dem (only slightly) and to sblock. Part of me thinks this may be a parody of all our collective behaviour from time to time. What it highlights is some of the endless obsession in the forum which can cause mando anxiety. None of it is intended indeed everyone here has the best of intentions and are kind and helpful.
I was recently looking to buy a Gil largely because I am fortunate enough to be able to and because I am in OZ i thought it would be nice to have some stay in the country. I knew I wanted a model 3 (A) because as a heretic I dont like the look of the F (yes i know that makes me crazier then Dem). Then it started... what condition, what wood was the top, one piece back was essential, D Log of course, which bracing..parrallel what was he thinking with X bracing.. really steve. 

Ironically being in Oz means I cant play any for sale before I buy nor can I realistically return it. 
Logistics became a very big issue. Then in the classifieds a model 3 which was here in OZ popped up. No tail piece, wrong back, wrong bracing and cosmetically was not a museum piece. 
I was going to fly down and play it but I had an epiphany maybe its just meant to be. Steve agreed to look at it and called me when I was driving my daughter around on a Saturday morning. He played it over the phone. I could not tell what it was really like but I could tell Steve was loving being reunited with it and that it was a good one if somewhat battered. So I just went with the flow. Steve set it up. 
When it arrived it was an ugly duckling but boy it boomed and was something special, at least to my ear.

Point is, if this is a parody its the parody we deserve from time to time. If not, then Dem sometimes you have to take a risk if you buy any of those you will always be able to sell it for just as much so its not much of a risk. 
BTW Dem please dont take my advice and buy something. I need the diversion with my morning coffee.

----------


## LadysSolo

I think what MarkWilson was saying about looking for a particular sound that requires a better player reminds me of the horse world (of which I am also a part.) At the upper levels, the 6-figure horses ARE really better than the $6,000 - $10,000 horses but we mere mortals (who are not professionals) would not be able to ride those horses to the peak of their ability. Similar to those of us in the $2,000 - $5,000 mandolin price range versus those in the 5-figure price range. We can notice the difference, but likely would never be able to get it out of the mandolin. Just my thoughts.....

----------


## George R. Lane

Demetrius.
You are not the only guy without a mandolin. I took my Yellowstone (aka Isabella) to Bruce Weber today for a re-fret. I am so lonely without her. I got so bored I played about 30 games of solitaire on the computer. I am slowly going crazy, thank goodness Bruce said it would just be a few days.

----------

Billy Packard

----------


## Demetrius

George, I feel your pain man...

----------


## George R. Lane

All I can say is; :Crying:  :Crying:  :Crying:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Frank Russell

Demetrius- as I posted earlier, some of Bob Givens' A models DO have truss rods, but they are only accessible thru the tailpiece hole.  Contact Greg Boyd, he may have info on specific dates for this feature.  I have owned two like this, an A4, and an A6.  These look like there's no truss rod, since there's no cover on the headstock.  Easily seen with some light and a dental mirror through an f-hole.  I still have the long Allen wrench tool around here somewhere, think I bought it from Greg Boyd.  Frank

----------

Demetrius

----------


## darylcrisp

Dem
not sure if The Parlor has been mentioned in Knoxvegas, this shop always has a good supply of Givens as well-its a neat place.

it had slipped my memory.

http://theparlorknoxville.com/mandolins

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Hi Daryl, 

    Thank you for the link!

- - - Updated - - -

Does anyone know what a 3 year old, in excellent condition Wiens should be selling for in this market? It is a private sale...

----------


## Atlanta Mando Mike

IMO, Weins don't really have an efficient market, mostly because of some of the things that happened in the past.  I would think the 70% of new rule would apply still.  Probably puts it in the $6500-$7800 price range depending on condition, case, etc...I think a new one is a little over $10k. It's a buyers market though and selling a mandolin takes longer than it used to.  I'm sure you know that.

----------


## Mandobar

The market is very soft right now.  The guideline, used by dealers, in a good market was 80% of the new cost, depending on the instrument. If you were trading in, then it was 70% of that price.  Right now, on a trade you would be lucky to get 60%.  

I'm kinda of shocked at the hump in the fretboard on the Dude that Demetrius owned.  But not surprised about the lack of volume.  Engelman topped mandolins are not going to have the volume that an adirondack topped mandolin is going to have.  Also, a low set up will kill volume, which is why getting an instrument set up is so important.  Good luthier = musicians' best friend.

----------


## Atlanta Mando Mike

Mandobar, I don't know if I agree on the Engelman comment.  I've got an Engelamn topped Daley right now that is loud and cuts big time. I've always thought Engelman's wouldn't be as good bluegrass mandolins and this one is a bluegrass beast.  I've had red spruce topped mandolins that weren't that loud as well.

----------


## Mandobar

Not saying they are not great bluegrass mandolins.  My comment was about volume.  I also commented that set up can kill volume also.  Tonal qualities can be affected by many different variables, such as wood pairings, bridge materials, neck angle, string so, material, etc.

Demetrius made a comment about the volume of his former mandolin in a jam.  When playing with a band things tend to be more controlled as band members, who play together frequently are more conscious of each other's playing.  In a jam, it's easy to be outnumbered by guitar players, fiddlers, and banjo players.  

If I remember correctly, Thile's Dudes were set with very low action.  That in itself would decrease volume.

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> For the record: What especially does inspire you? What tone are you looking for? What´s the feel that you want? And what is improtant aesthetically.
> 
> I know that I sometimes feel prejudiced in favor or against an instrument... What is it with you? Explain please.


Was my question answered? If so, where? I´d really like to know. Because:

- This thread is about one´s search for THE ULTIMATE
- This thread shows situations that we all experienced once (or many times over), namely: Which is the best instrument that I can afford.
- This thread shows that nobody has unlimited access to all existing interesting instruments. 
- This thread shows that many instrumental properties come into play when one is inclined to loosen funds for the right instrument.

I find interesting that
- an instrument needn´t feel loud in order to cut through a mix (I think that cut and loudness is often used synonymously although they mean something different)
- (percieved) loudness often sacrifices tone (this is my perception)
- the tonal qualities as well as cut and loudness of a Lloyd Loar type mandolin cannot be well judged by the player because he does not hear them well enough.

I like
- Duff mandolins (I´m totally prejudiced)
- Gilchrist mandolins (starting around the millenium; soft spot for S-hole Gilchrists; find other Gils overrated pricewise)
- Brentrup mandos (played a very nice F-5 PML in Brighton UK a few years back; setup was not really ok but the mando was excellent despite less than optimal setup; it had a very nice sound - up there with a Heiden that I played that day)
- HoGo mandolins (Adrian Minarovic from Slovakia builds them; I think they are right up there with the top tier builder mandolins and they are built like a prewar F-5)
- the Lloyd Loar F-5 tone (having played two examples, this stuck with me ever since)

I would like to play
- a Dudenbostel
- a Monteleone F-5
- a Wiens F-5

I second the comments about the limited market and the realistic price information for a Wiens. (For the record; in 2012 sgarrity´s asking price of a Wiens was about 13 k, which at that time was about Jamie Wiens´ asking price for a new one)

And Demetrius... I´d like to know what caused the ranking of 
Wiens F-5
Brentrup M23V
Givens F-5
Givens A6

Also... did you consider the Brentrup V8 at Carter´s (http://www.cartervintage.com/mandopa...e.html#brent)? If not, why?

----------


## Demetrius

I like sustain, and a complexity of tone... Stringy mandolins where you hear the stings more than the wood is something I can't tolerate. The Dude and the Givens both delivered this wood tone perfectly. They were both dark tonally and both have engleman tops. The sacrifice in dark, "to me" is that in a jam dark doesn't cut through. That is to my ears maybe not to someone else's. None of what I'm saying here is a fact, it's all a matter of how my ear perceives a particular sound quality. Ironically the Gilchrist is engleman top aswell and without a doubt the loudest most cut through mandolin I've ever encountered. Dare I say It was almost too much? Nahhh I'm probably just trying to make myself feel better for not sticking with it. In other words it sounded like Red and Engelmann all mashed up it wasn't the prettiest sound but I really believe that is from the terrible set up. That mandolin had loads of sustain, therefore if you're looking for something dry with no overtones then that mandolin is NOT for you . Low and behold I actually emailed to get the Gilchrist back and said I'll take it again, but was literally told in response "it's clearly not the mandolin for you". I was like Ummm ok guess not then. Anyhow, i think in the end I'll end up with something that is the complete opposite of what I was looking for and I'll learn to make it do what I want it to do. This happened when I ordered my acoustic guitar back 11yrs ago. When I received it I could stand it, it was soooo boxy sounding. Guess what? It's still boxy sounding but I learned how to pull tone out of a boxy guitar and now that guitar is my favorite instrument on earth. I formed it, and it formed me into how I play guitar today. 
So that being said, I'm down to two mandolins in my Mando search. If any of you have some opinions or facts about either of these mandolins, let it be said now. And please no bringing up old threads of bad business practices. I'm aware of that story and as far as Im concerned it's history. Plus both instrument are already built and sold in the used market, so builder business discussion in this situation would be irrelivant. I Look forward to everyones vote. Decision wil be made today!

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Good morning! Another reflective video clip for you guys:

----------


## Canoedad

> Low and behold I actually emailed to get the Gilchrist back and said I'll take it again, but was literally told in response "it's clearly not the mandolin for you". I was like Ummm ok guess not then.


Demetrius, They won't re-sell it to you?  What this reality show needs now is a straw purchaser!  Don't give up so easily.

----------


## Demetrius

I mean my concerns were valid and they agreed with everything I said about the mandolin. They were very respectful but in the end I just think they were ready to move one, and sort of wanted me to do the same. 
It ended on a good note but I won't lie, I'll always regret not being more patient with that one. 
I've learned and that's all I can ask for at this point. :/

----------


## Mark Seale

Simple.  Both.

----------


## Jeff Mando

> Demetrius, They won't re-sell it to you?  What this reality show needs now is a straw purchaser!  Don't give up so easily.


Maybe reality show combined with some group therapy.  I think these concepts are personal and hard for most of us to put into words.  At least, in a way that others can understand or relate to.  It is easier to say, "Bill Monroe played a Gibson, so I want a Gibson."  Or maybe, "I've always wanted a Gibson, so I bought one."  Beyond that, you lose people -- talking wood species, cutting power, volume, sustain -- heck, everybody wants a mandolin that is loud, cuts through the mix, has sustain, and a good woody tone, don't they?  Nobody, wants a thin, wimpy sounding mandolin.  It is only in relation to other instruments that these differences can be heard and again, are hard to describe in words -- you had to be there -- in other words!  Another factor that some might find annoying is that most of us don't have the opportunity to pursue the "ultimate" with any aspect of our lives, with the exception of getting our favorite meal on our birthdays!  Most of us have to settle for what we can afford and limit ourselves to a certain price range.  Which is actually, good because it narrows the choices.  I think the OP is in a lucky position to possibly purchase his "lifetime" mandolin and it makes sense to choose wisely.  Again, good luck with that.

As far as a shop not wanting to sell again an item that has been returned, I can understand their position.  First, a $16K return is a pretty good hit on any small business and would probably hurt their cash flow for the month.  Also, it may have been a consignment (as is often the case with high-end items) and they may have had to calm an excited consignor who was told their item had sold.  No fun, there.  Another thing is just the risk to the instrument everytime it is shipped.  We take this for granted, but it is a huge risk.  To me, that is a necessary evil of living in an age with such selection, thanks to the internet.  Finally, it may come down to the shop owner not being able to relate and just saying "no."

----------


## Demetrius

Yeh, trust me I totally see where they are coming from... I don't think they'd fully object if I called now to be honest but I feel they at this point they are a little comfortable and I truly do not blame them. I own a business, I get it.

----------


## JKA

Demetrius 
I'd be really interested to know about your journey when you eventually found your guitar. I literally spent many years searching for my ultimate acoustic having owned dozens of high end acoustics over many years but was never really satisfied until 'the one' came along. 

I thought I'd found it when I bought my Martin D45, or at least I tried to convince myself that was the one. I eventually found my guitar purely by chance and will never look for anything else as my baby does it all and sounds better than anything I've been lucky enough to own, or play in the past. My guitar isn't anything special to look at, is over engineered and has a neck that shouldn't suit my small hands. It starts to sing even before I pick it up. It wasn't particularly expensive either. 

I suspect your keeper mandolin will end up being something you did not expect and you'll happen upon it when the stars are aligned. I would suggest you don't force it...buy what takes your fancy now, keep an open mind and recognise 'the one' when it's in your hands, then pull the trigger and don't look back.

What acoustic did I end up with? A Tacoma made Guild D55...the perfect guitar.

Keith

----------

Billy Packard

----------


## Demetrius

Hey Keith, that was a great post.. Thanks for that.
The guitar I ended up with is a Brunkalla Patlor guitar. 
I've beat the heck out of it and it always gives bavk.
When I say I love it I mean it. I wouldn't sell it for anything.
I've had about 20 offers on it over the years, redicukoua 
Over the top offers and I didn't think twice about it. Money 
an't rebuilt one of these  guitar

----------


## sblock

Well, it's gratifying to learn that you "get it."  That's a start, at least!  Gryphon Music is, arguably, the best music store this side of the Mississippi, and I am very fortunate to live near them. They are true professionals, and Frank Ford, their master luthier, is a world treasure.  They really know their business.  In light of the circumstances, I can easily understand why they regret having you as a customer! You seem to be having tremendous difficulty in making up your mind, but at the same time, you are also having tremendous difficulty containing your compulsions. That's a very bad combination indeed, because it leads you to act impulsively, and before you're ready.  When we're talking about truly high-end instruments that cost from $10,000 to $20,000, that makes for some very expensive mistakes.  And expensive mistakes not only cost you -- they cost the store something, as well.  This unfortunate return-and-refusal should be a life lesson for you, if you will learn it.

There are plenty of people here on the Cafe who are rooting for you to find the mandolin of your dreams.  And believe it or not, I'm one of them, too -- despite the tough love. But many of us are flabbergasted, and even transfixed, at the seemingly reckless way you are going about it all.  I think that's a good part of the reason for the popularity of this thread.  We all would love to have a truly great mandolin (some already do; most don't), but very few of us would go about getting one your way, with all the _sturm und drang_.

Unless you're exceedingly lucky, finding The One _takes patience_.  It also takes knowledge, experience, ear training, and quite a bit of research.  It probably takes more than a bit of serendipity, too, but that part is beyond our control.  Still, there are certain things that are very much under your control, and you should try to channel at least some of your passion (obsession?), which is more than evident, into these things.  Don't be so quick to pull the trigger.  

Under the circumstances, it might be a good idea to get a lesser mandolin right away, just to tide you over, and to alleviate some of the compulsion you seem to feel to spend a huge amount of money RIGHT NOW.  It may also buy you the time to get better educated about the spectrum of sounds available, experiencing more high-end instruments _in person_, and better understand the sounds that you prefer.  Several folks have already suggested that you buy a "beater."  Or something quite a bit better than that, in the few-thousand range, like a Weber or Pava or Northfield, etc. This seems like a great suggestion, and it should take some of the edge off.  You might even discover that you love it, and regardless, you will learn more about coaxing great tone from your instrument, even as you search for something still better. It will buy you time.  Time to take that field trip to Nashville, and compare hundreds of top-end mandolins within a couple of days. Or time to "taste" many mandolins in other settings, such as visits to luthiers, festivals, jams, musicians' homes, etc. That will educate your ears, and help you to better understand your own likes and dislikes. Which you have, but they are not fully formed!  When The One eventually comes along, it should be like falling in love (or as they have it in the romantic literature, anyway):  you will be ready, and you will know it on the spot.

Of course, 50% of marriages end in divorce, and most cases of MAS are never fully satisfied, despite all the foregoing.  So this might be a lifelong quest.  And that's fine too.  But it doesn't have to be an ambling, random walk, filled with impetuous buys and a high proportion of regrettable decisions.  You seem to be careening through this process, when you might be better off by soberly focusing on it.

By the way, your wife is one of the most indulgent I have ever encountered.  She doesn't seem the least bit troubled when passion turns into obsession, and begins to spin out of control.  Hang onto her; she is worth more than any mandolin.

----------

Franc Homier Lieu

----------


## JeffD

What this thread demonstrates is that many folks enjoy the hunt almost as much, (or maybe just as much) as the playing. A bit like fishing, where the big three activities are fishing, talking/reading about fishing, shopping for equipment. Got to love it.

----------

Billy Packard, 

Demetrius

----------


## JKA

> Hey Keith, that was a great post.. Thanks for that.
> The guitar I ended up with is a Brunkalla Patlor guitar. 
> I've beat the heck out of it and it always gives bavk.
> When I say I love it I mean it. I wouldn't sell it for anything.
> I've had about 20 offers on it over the years, redicukoua 
> Over the top offers and I didn't think twice about it. Money 
> an't rebuilt one of these  guitar


Demetrius...just goes to prove "keeper" can mean "keeper" it's a good feeling isn't it? That's the feeling heading your way regarding your mandolin search...however long that may take you. Be patient, enjoy the journey and enjoy the plethora of fabulous mandolins you're likely to encounter on the way. 

Keith

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> What this thread demonstrates is that many folks enjoy the hunt almost as much, (or maybe just as much) as the playing. A bit like fishing, where the big three activities are fishing, talking/reading about fishing, shopping for equipment. Got to love it.


Isn't there a difference between sincerely hunting for a mandolin and making 100+ posts in a thread you started about looking for a mandolin? I think sblock has nailed it (repeatedly).

----------

houseworker

----------


## Demetrius

Thanks Keith,

    I really appreciate the kind words, and Im grateful for every single post in this thread...
Yes! The keepers really are something to embrace once they've been found.

----------


## Jstring

Whenever I've changed my mind or gotten cold feet about an instrument that I've bought from a helpful small shop (like Gryphon), I always tell them to bill my credit card for $50 or $100 to compensate them for shipping, credit card fees, employee time, packaging, etc. 

It's always been gratefully accepted, and I know I'll be welcome if I wish to buy from that shop again...

Just something to think about...

----------

houseworker

----------


## darylcrisp

> I mean my concerns were valid and they agreed with everything I said about the mandolin. They were very respectful but in the end I just think they were ready to move one, and sort of wanted me to do the same. 
> It ended on a good note but I won't lie, I'll always regret not being more patient with that one. 
> I've learned and that's all I can ask for at this point. :/


if you really want it, give someone you trust the funds and have them buy it and have it shipped.

kind of a roundabout situation, I had a legal eagle friend and we both were heavily into whitewater kayaking. Whitewater kayaks are as or more addictive than MAS. After he had around 4 at home, he started buying and shipping others to land at my house-he was there a lot anyhow and he just kept them stored. come to think about it, he did the same thing with a Harley too. I used to have all kinds of neat stuff he would buy and keep at my house.

just a thought
d

----------


## JeffD

> Isn't there a difference between sincerely hunting for a mandolin and making 100+ posts in a thread you started about looking for a mandolin? I think sblock has nailed it (repeatedly).


Well, interesting. 

I am thinking that there is enough fun in the shopping that ending the shopping with a purchase is kind of a bummer. I think is in agreement with sblock.

Some folks don't even stop shopping after purchase, with still more comparisons with what is available for sale, or complaints about not getting the best in the universe deal.


My own personal taste is that I love the playing so much more than the shopping, and also that whatever I buy won't be my last purchase, and that I likely will be more informed next time by gaining playing experience with what I have.

 So who knows. I just enjoy folks having fun. And with so very many of my own posts it is made clear that I love talking about mandolinning a bunch.

----------


## Demetrius

That Campanella keeps haunting me  :Smile:

----------


## Demetrius

????

----------


## usqebach

Oh no!  Now I'm completely sucked in!

Which one arrived with the binding coming off - the Givens F-5?

Wasn't the point made that binding can easily be reglued?

What's the verdict?

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Jeff Mando

> Which one arrived with the binding coming off - the Givens F-5?


It's only 15 pages...........what else do you have to do today, anyway?

----------

Demetrius

----------


## UlsterMando

[/QUOTE]

Hi Demetrius, 
     I obviously can't hear the mandolins to compare them
but I do have a comment on one point about the way they look.
     I have always loved the slight swell in the fretboard extension as seen
on the Wiens. As details go it is subtle, but it's something I really like.
In an instrument that is all about curves, it baffles me that so many 
builders choose not to include this little delight.

      Please continue . . .

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Billy Packard

Actually Jeff, I gotta do my laundry!  Specifically my Mt. Bike stuff AND as always I bring along a mando to play while I wait.  Nice reverb in the laundry mat and I've made a big fan out of the owner!
THEN I'll get back and see the latest in Dem's journey.  I think he's going for the Wiens, to be candid.  Though the Givens F5 intrigues him.
Billy Packard

----------

Demetrius

----------


## usqebach

Okay, so now I'm really flummoxed!

I got faked out when Kate (now we are getting to know D's wife - Hi Kate!) posted the video on p.14, with D's final thought on it being that the Givens was the most comfortable fit, along with D's previous post which said "the decision will be made today!".  Fast forward to D's post at 12:56 today, where he originally posted "it arrived with the binding coming off" which has since been changed to read "That Campanella keeps haunting me."

That left my post making little sense to those that followed.

To take Jeff Mando's point to a higher level, it is entirely possible that my time spent unraveling this thread has cost my business almost the  purchase price of any of these mandolins!  I may have to buy D a mandolin and send it to him just to close out the thread and allow me to get back to work. Now that's a very clever strategy - holding someone's attention hostage with the ransom demand being a mandolin!

p.s. Upon rereading this, I want to stress that this is all in good fun.   No ill intent towards Demetrius or Kate intended.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Relio

> 


Hi Demetrius, 
     I obviously can't hear the mandolins to compare them
but I do have a comment on one point about the way they look.
     I have always loved the slight swell in the fretboard extension as seen
on the Wiens. As details go it is subtle, but it's something I really like.
In an instrument that is all about curves, it baffles me that so many 
builders choose not to include this little delight.

      Please continue . . .[/QUOTE]

That is an interesting design feature. I actually prefer no extension because I get a lot of pick clicking. This is a really entertaining thread!

----------

Demetrius

----------


## UlsterMando

> Hi Demetrius, 
>      I obviously can't hear the mandolins to compare them
> but I do have a comment on one point about the way they look.
>      I have always loved the slight swell in the fretboard extension as seen
> on the Wiens. As details go it is subtle, but it's something I really like.
> In an instrument that is all about curves, it baffles me that so many 
> builders choose not to include this little delight.
> 
>       Please continue . . .


That is an interesting design feature. I actually prefer no extension because I get a lot of pick clicking. This is a really entertaining thread![/QUOTE]

"If you want to get the soul baby, you gots to get the scoop . . ."  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## UlsterMando

" It is better to travel than to arrive "
                                      Buddha

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> I like sustain, and a complexity of tone... Stringy ... I can't tolerate. (good is) ....dark tonally ...Decision wil be made today!


Thanks for clarifying. I believe I understand better.

Now for "criticism":
- dark works alone...but not necessarily in a band/ensemble context. If you want a dark mandolin you need a bright(er) complementary instrument (brighter guitar etc.). All dark instruments don´t work together. 
- Stringy is subjective. One may call the typical prewar F-5 sound stringy... I tend to call it muscular. The LL-sound (to my ears) is not voluptouos/creamy... 

To make matters worse (he, he, he, he...); look and listen here (and you know why):




or




But dark and complex leads me to think:



But that opens up a whole new can of worms (f vs. oval).

The hatchet is being droped today... with a haunting Campanella to go along...? So which one is it?

----------

darylcrisp

----------


## Bob Clark

> That Campanella keeps haunting me


Campanellas can have that effect.  Although I believe I am one of the few who have actually been cured of MAS, if ever I suffer a relapse, a Campanella will be the cause (and likely the cure).

----------


## Bob Clark

> " It is better to travel than to arrive "
>                                       Buddha


Or as Harry Chapin put it _"It's got to be the going not the getting there that's good."_

I have always enjoyed the search, but ultimately it's an itch that must be scratched.  Playing the new mandolin does the scratching.  Let's hope this search gets the job done for Demetrius. :Grin:

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## Russ Donahue

This journey has caused my (abated) MAS to flare again...has me thinking of how to leverage several instruments to acquire a new one...as has been pointed out, it's that thinking, questioning and anticipating that makes MAS such fun!

Keep going D!

----------


## Demetrius

Usqebach.
I think there was a mix up... I was refering to the Gilchrist that had arrived with binding separated in a few spots.
I was answering someone else with that.

----------


## Demetrius

Jim, You can totally buy me a mandolin though.
Id gladly accept lol!

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Hi, usqebach... Jim?

Yeah, there was a bit of a delay in posting the video - about a day, in fact. Oh, how quickly things change in this quest for a mandolin ;-) Sorry for the confusion.

While I'm also sorry that this thread has been distracting you from work, I'm glad it's been entertaining at least! I can't believe how much I'm checking posts now, too...

Kate

----------


## Demetrius

Relio!!!! I completely know what you mean about that fret board extension thing. I believe a builder by he name of holobek also does this same thing. That is so so neat that you noticed that.

----------


## Demetrius

Grassrootphilosopher,
Do you hear the creaminess in the dudes low end in those videos? 
I enjoyed playing the Gil in those as well. It can be slightly dark,
But as long as the mandolin has killer mid range then it'll cut through.
I had a Brentrup f5c that can be destined as this perfectly. It was dark but 
Bright too? Where it needed to be and amd had killer focused mid range.

----------


## pheffernan

> - dark works alone...but not necessarily in a band/ensemble context.


So if I'm reading you correctly, Demetrius (and by extension I and the rest of us) needs more than one dream mandolin, i.e. a darker one for solo play or perhaps smaller ensembles with a brighter one in reserve for band and ensemble contexts? I must confess I had an intuition that might be the case.  :Cool:

----------


## JeffD

> So if I'm reading you correctly, Demetrius (and by extension I and the rest of us) needs more than one dream mandolin, i.e. a darker one for solo play or perhaps smaller ensembles with a brighter one in reserve for band and ensemble contexts? I must confess I had an intuition that might be the case.


Cannot argue with this.

However, it might be accomplished, to a large extent, with pick choice. A great mandolin with a 1.4 mm BC pick or a 1.5 mm Primetone might have a dark creamy tone, and then the same mandolin with one of those pointy 0.75 mm Pickboys might sound bright and scintillating.


So the bad news is you might not need two mandolins. But the good news is you have to try each mandolin both with heavy picks and light pointy picks to see how it performs at each end of the spectrum.

More stuff to consider, now we are getting somewhere.

----------


## Demetrius

Id be lying if I said two mandolins wouldn't be a good plan.

----------


## JeffD

> Id be lying if I said two mandolins wouldn't be a good plan.


Yea but then the decision is easier.  :Wink:  Take your time, find the one that does both.  :Whistling:  We are having fun watching.

----------


## sblock

_Schadenfreude_  :Wink:

----------


## UlsterMando

> Relio!!!! I completely know what you mean about that fret board extension thing. I believe a builder by he name of holobek also does this same thing. That is so so neat that you noticed that.


To avoid confusion, I think you might be replying to me rather than Relio.
Relio prefers an attenuated extension to avoid pick click. My own view is that
a scooped Florida retains the balanced look of the instrument while solving
the click issue.
Just to bore a little on the same issue, I Really don't like the Gilchrist
"Shrunken Florida". For me it has the appearance of a withered limb.
If I were ever to commission an instrument from him, a fully grown 
peninsula would be one of my main cosmetic issues. 
It's all about the details.

By the way, If you do go for two mandolins, will this thread be twice as long ?

Please continue searching . . .

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Ken Waltham

I like the Gilchrist mandolin at Gruhn's. The 2008 model, I think it is. Sidebound like Bill's, pretty cool.

----------

RichieK

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> Just to bore a little on the same issue, I Really don't like the Gilchrist
> "Shrunken Florida". For me it has the appearance of a withered limb.
> If I were ever to commission an instrument from him, a fully grown 
> peninsula would be one of my main cosmetic issues.


My Duff F5 has pretty much the same fingerboard extension as the Gil...what you refer to as a "Shrunken Florida". I happen to like it.
I guess...right or wrong... I feel no need to compensate.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Fine music, a tasty dinner, and my beautiful wife... What more could one ask for?
Ok maybe a mandolin in the scenario would be the icing on the cake, but soon!

----------


## LadysSolo

I think if you have it down to a choice between two mandolins, get them both. That's how I ended up with a Pava and a Weber - I couldn't choose between them (but now my MAS is cured....)     :Mandosmiley:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## pops1

I don't think you could go wrong with either, but if you get one then the other will be the one you think you should have gotten. I think I may have to agree with LadysSolo on this one. It's hard to get past the "grass is greener" effect you know.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## darylcrisp

Olaf
thanks for this earlier.
amazing mandolin, amazing skill and play
the sound of this mandolin is what I've been looking for.....................oh no............

----------

Demetrius, 

Denman John

----------


## Demetrius

Hello Gang! I said I would pick a mandolin today and I have...  :Smile:

----------


## George R. Lane

Demetrius,
Are toying with us? Come on and let us know and let this madness end. :Grin:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

I would never toy with anyone on here, but I don't plan on just giving it away that boringly either...
That is like investing 2 hrs of your time watching a movie that has a terrible ending.
I owe more to you and to the others for all the great posts responses, not to mention 
the incredible amount of private messages and helpful pointers that I've received.

----------


## darylcrisp

send me the $, i'll buy and get the Gilchrist shipped in, come by the house anytime and play to your hearts content.
you can check out my friends kayaks and Harley while you are here.

your welcome
d

----------


## Demetrius

Darycrisp, include a fine dinner in this equation and its a deal! lol

----------


## UlsterMando

Hi there FLATROCK HILL, enjoy the Duff. Nice mandolin!


" Fretboard extension innuendo ain't no part of nuthin'. "
                                                         W S Monroe.

----------

FLATROCK HILL

----------


## Mandobar

I'd put different strings on that Gil Jr. to take some of the shrill off the top end.

----------


## Steve-o

> I would never toy with anyone on here, but I don't plan on just giving it away that boringly either...


 :Whistling:  :Popcorn:

----------

Billy Packard

----------


## Mandobar

I'd be surprised if Gryphon will ship the Gil to anyone at this point.  I think they are well aware of this thread, as are other shop owners.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Yeh it's a very hot time of year, I wouldn't do anything but overnight a package.

----------


## Jim Garber

I have been away from this thread for a few days. I am glad to see it is plugging along and effectively competing with any of the Blue Chip threads.  :Smile: 

Keep up the good work. I wonder if many of us will miss this thread if it actually ends. I have a feeling tho that part of its longevity is the social aspect of this search which has elements of a community decision. Most of us do all this in private and make our decisions known after they are done. We are privy to all of Dem's ins and outs and thoughts.

----------

Billy Packard, 

Mark Wilson

----------


## Jeff Mando

> I have been away from this thread for a few days. I am glad to see it is plugging along and effectively competing with any of the Blue Chip threads.


I would put this thread somewhere between "Blue Chip mania"  :Sleepy:  and "I don't know a thing about mandolins, but we found Grandpa's old mandolin in the closet -- it says The Gibson on the peghead and the label is signed by someone named Lloyd Loar -- do you think it could be worth anything?"  :Disbelief:

----------


## Canoedad

> I would put this thread somewhere between "Blue Chip mania"  and "I don't know a thing about mandolins, but we found Grandpa's old mandolin in the closet -- it says The Gibson on the peghead and the label is signed by someone named Lloyd Loar -- do you think it could be worth anything?"


A "pick search" parody thread might be fun, where the author literally has no pick!   :Grin: 

(Hey I'm just trying to keep this thing going while the next episode is being filmed.  I'm hooked.)

----------

Jill McAuley

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Good afternoon, folks! Just wanted to share a video clip of Demetrius singing an original song on his brother's Brentrup. It's an iPhone recording, so it's a bit rough, but a great song nonetheless:

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...al-song-by-dem

----------

Billy Packard, 

darylcrisp, 

Russ Donahue

----------


## Russ Donahue

Anyone approached you for the movie rights yet for this thread?

----------

Billy Packard, 

Josh Levine

----------


## pops1

Kate, you are a treasure. I love what you say about being a musicians wife.

----------

Billy Packard, 

darylcrisp, 

Demetrius, 

The Musician's Wife

----------


## Demetrius

Hey now! That was me singin in the bathroom! How'd it make its way on to the blog dear???

----------


## Demetrius

Pops she is a treasure, that's for sure...

----------

The Musician's Wife

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Sweetie, it doesn't matter if you're singing on stage or in the bathroom. I'm your #1 fan...xo

Plus, didn't you know that bathrooms are like the closest household room to a stage? Great acoustics ;-)

Also, I honestly think that particular Brentrup supports your vocals really well...what'd you guys think?

----------

Demetrius

----------


## UlsterMando

Demetrius, I'm sorry I can't remember if it has been covered yet or not but, if not, 
have you considered ordering your dream mandolin from the luthier you feel could 
best meet your requirements ?

Your thread could morph into - The wait continues . . .

----------

Demetrius

----------


## David Surette

Just binge-read the entire thread in 45 minutes (with some skimming). Holy moly. I love it.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Jim Garber

> Demetrius, I'm sorry I can't remember if it has been covered yet or not but, if not, 
> have you considered ordering your dream mandolin from the luthier you feel could 
> best meet your requirements ?
> 
> Your thread could morph into - The wait continues . . .


Not sure if he ever mentioned it but I am guessing there is some undercurrent of getting an ultimate deal on the perfect mandolin. Otherwise…

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Jim Garber

> Just binge-read the entire thread in 45 minutes (with some skimming). Holy moly. I love it.


Soon to be a major motion sickness.  :Smile:

----------

Bertram Henze, 

Demetrius, 

Russ Donahue

----------


## Demetrius

Jim lol

----------


## Demetrius

I just played my good friends Brentrup for a couples hrs and it literally makes me want to fly to Minnesota and shake Hans Brentrups hand off... It pushes so much air it nearly parted my eyebrows... :Smile:

----------


## Russ Donahue

> Hey now! That was me singin in the bathroom! How'd it make its way on to the blog dear???


Nice playing Demetrius.  And was that a capo I saw on the neck?  Do you use one often? You have me rethinking past views about "cheaters" on a mandolin....'course I use one all the time on a guitar and never think twice.

----------


## Russ Donahue

> Sweetie, it doesn't matter if you're singing on stage or in the bathroom. I'm your #1 fan...xo
> 
> Plus, didn't you know that bathrooms are like the closest household room to a stage? Great acoustics ;-)
> 
> Also, I honestly think that particular Brentrup supports your vocals really well...what'd you guys think?


Yeah....I don't think of using any of my mandos for solo accompaniment 'cause they never feel like there's enough bottom to support my voice. But like your wife says (does she have a name?) that Brentrup sounds like it matches your voice just right. Maybe you should make a deal with your brother for that one. I would!

----------


## The Musician's Wife

A little video clip before bed...

By that I mean, of course, my bedtime 'cause I know how all you musicians roll at night!

Dem is "Grateful to Gryphon" -

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...ful-to-gryphon

----------

Austin Bob, 

Russ Donahue

----------


## jaycat

This is better than the Loud Family.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I just played my good friends Brentrup for a couples hrs and it literally makes me want to fly to Minnesota and shake Hans Brentrups hand off... It pushes so much air it nearly parted my eyebrows...


I have written Hans multiple times to thank him for making mine.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Steve-o

> A little video clip before bed...


So, a package is coming tomorrow.  :Whistling:

----------


## JeffD

This tread started July 9th. So while you were busy chosing a mandolin amongst alternatives any one of which would make anyone happy for the rest of his or her whole life, I :

Played a concert of mandolin chamber music
Played in four weekly jam sessions, one of which I hosted at my house
Rehearsed 3 times with my Charlie Poole tribute band
Recorded four more tunes in the studio, met twice to practice four new ones for the project
Learned two new fiddle tunes just for the fun of it.
Learned the song "Abeline" on mandolin and guitar.
Memorized the Andante and first two variations of Beethovens WoO 44b Werke Fur Mandoline und Klavier

Dude, you're missing a lot of music while making this decision. I sure hope you are having fun.  :Smile:

----------

Franc Homier Lieu, 

Jim Garber

----------


## pops1

> I have written Hans multiple times to thank him for making mine.


I have called him several times to tell him how much I enjoy his mandolin. Way to go Jim.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Same here... I write him a note every few months to check up on how he's doing. 
His mandolins are a beast of their own. I love singing with them...

----------


## pheffernan

Yeah but Jeff, which of your suboptimal mandolins did you shoehorn into each of these applications?  :Grin:

----------


## Mandobar

There's a nice Gil F5 in the classifieds out in PA.  Couple of hour drive and you could try it out in person.

That said, I have been doing outdoor gigs all summer, and there is no way that I would stand outside in 90 degree plus heat, with 70 percent humidity with a $10k instrument and play for three hours.  I'm using a Northfield for these gigs and even feel bad about that.  I don't think I will be booking any more of them any time soon, but it really made me think.

----------


## The Musician's Wife

A little teaser video of Dem bringing out his package...

The battle is over...or is it?

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...battle-is-over

----------


## JeffD

> Yeah but Jeff, which of your suboptimal mandolins did you shoehorn into each of these applications?


That is exactly the point. Nailed. Boom - 

I would much much much rather play lots of music, have a lot of fun, soak up the endorphins on real good and good enough instruments, than miss a lot of music making opportunities in the hopes of snagging "the optimal instrument." Especially when the criteria for "optimal" changes with time and experience. 

The only thing I am sure of is I can never ever get any of the time back. Ever. And... there is no way to live a life without accumulating things to regret. No decision is ever perfect.

But, as has been said, for many, the fun of the chase is part of the hobby. Heaven forbid everyone should enjoy it my way.  :Smile:

----------

Mandobar

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Originally Posted by pheffernan
> 
> 
> Yeah but Jeff, which of your suboptimal mandolins did you shoehorn into each of these applications? 
> 
> 
> That is exactly the point. Nailed. Boom -


For those who can't decide - waiting for a decision actually means playing *no mandolin*, which is the worst mandolin you can possibly play: any other mandolin is better than that. And once you have decided on an instrument, how will you decide on a piece of music to learn? There is so much to choose from. The doctors have a word for that: eleutherophobia.

The red wire or the blue one? Time is running out...  :Mandosmiley:

----------

Mandobar

----------


## Relio

> I would much much much rather play lots of music, have a lot of fun, soak up the endorphins on real good and good enough instruments, than miss a lot of music making opportunities in the hopes of snagging "the optimal instrument." Especially when the criteria for "optimal" changes with time and experience.


I would much much much rather not play for a month and own a $20,000 mandolin :-) :-P Looks like he received the mandolin already, can't wait to see what he got! This has been a fun thread.

----------


## Mandobar

> I would much much much rather not play for a month and own a $20,000 mandolin :-) :-P Looks like he received the mandolin already, can't wait to see what he got! This has been a fun thread.


That defies the entire idea behind playing the mandolin.

----------

Franc Homier Lieu

----------


## JeffD

> I would much much much rather not play for a month and own a $20,000 mandolin


An interesting question. How much money would someone have to give me to give up mandolin for a month. And is $20,000 enough? Perhaps it is.

OTOH, if I had $20,000 budgeted and ready to go, and it was just a matter of picking the mandolin out and buying it, I am not sure a month of not having a mandolin would be worth the increment towards optimal that agonizing for that month buys me.




> can't wait to see what he got! This has been a fun thread.


Yes. Very fun. We spectators have the best of both worlds, we get to watch someone live our fantasy, and spend serious money on a mandolin and sympathetically agonize the decision. And at the same time get to play the mandolin we have.  :Smile:

----------


## sblock

What we have here is a highly unusual case.

It is very rare for a mandolin player to purchase a very high-end mandolin ($10,000 on up) as his or her only mandolin, and yet own no other, lesser model as a backup. In fact, most players with high-end mandolins own _more than one_ backup instrument. After all, what do you do when the high-end instrument inevitably needs some repair? What do you do in situations when you don't want to risk loss or damage to the high-end instrument?  Personally, I can think of no player with a $10,000+ instrument who doesn't already have one or more other mandolins.  

It is even rarer for someone to go _without any mandolin at all_ while searching for a high-end instrument.

I've said this before:  this is an example of someone having more money than common sense.  Furthermore, it's a dangerous combination when anyone has so much trouble making up their own mind, and yet at the very same time feels compelled to act impulsively, and not deliberately.

While it's been fun for many MC readers to see the decision-making process of the OP "laid bare" in this thread, very few of us would ever act in this way ourselves.  Yes, we'd all _love_ to own a great mandolin, if we had the resources to buy one, but our decision processes would be rather different.  How many of us would ask other MC readers to vote for the choice, substituting their opinions for our own? How many of us would buy a $16,000 Gilchrist, only to return it for the reasons stated earlier?  How many would post a video of ourselves whining under the bedsheets about not having a mandolin? How many would so publicly agonize about their inability to decide, and their compulsion to rush to buy?

No doubt in my mind:  this thread has become the new "reality TV" of the MC.  We've become fixated on observing the behavior of someone who is acting out rather intemperately -- and we're loving every minute of it. We're having vicarious fantasies. And by so doing, we are egging on the behavior, and urging the OP to become ever-more outrageous.  

Soon though, this thread will jump the shark. The Big Reveal will happen -- but then, there will be the inevitable feeling of let-down, because the Ultimate Mandolin will not have been discovered, and there will be no new practical insights into how to conduct The Quest.  Viewership will droop.  But hey, I wonder what next season will bring?!   :Laughing:

----------

f5joe, 

Franc Homier Lieu, 

houseworker

----------


## houseworker

He'll send it back - he doesn't like the J74s or some such.

----------

Franc Homier Lieu, 

Teak

----------


## Josh Levine

Sblock, at this point it seems like you just want to use this as your own pulpit to express your opinion/feelings and get some viewership. You've already stated your opinion on op's financial situation. Yes, this is full of theatrics and Tom Foolery. Just recognize that you are consuming and milking this just as much as anyone else.

----------

Russ Donahue, 

Steve-o

----------


## sblock

You bet!  :Mandosmiley: 


P.S.  TV shows have a role, but so do TV critics.

----------


## Relio

> What we have here is a highly unusual case.
> 
> It is very rare for a mandolin player to purchase a very high-end mandolin ($10,000 on up) as his or her only mandolin, and yet own no other, lesser model as a backup. In fact, most players with high-end mandolins own _more than one_ backup instrument. After all, what do you do when the high-end instrument inevitably needs some repair? What do you do in situations when you don't want to risk loss or damage to the high-end instrument?  Personally, I can think of no player with a $10,000+ instrument who doesn't already have one or more other mandolins.  
> 
> It is even rarer for someone to go _without any mandolin at all_ while searching for a high-end instrument.
> 
> I've said this before:  this is an example of someone having more money than common sense.  Furthermore, it's a dangerous combination when anyone has so much trouble making up their own mind, and yet at the very same time feels compelled to act impulsively, and not deliberately.
> 
> While it's been fun for many MC readers to see the decision-making process of the OP "laid bare" in this thread, very few of us would ever act in this way ourselves.  Yes, we'd all _love_ to own a great mandolin, if we had the resources to buy one, but our decision processes would be rather different.  How many of us would ask other MC readers to vote for the choice, substituting their opinions for our own? How many of us would buy a $16,000 Gilchrist, only to return it for the reasons stated earlier?  How many would post a video of ourselves whining under the bedsheets about not having a mandolin? How many would so publicly agonize about their inability to decide, and their compulsion to rush to buy?
> ...


A bit of advice, do not join a Patek Philippe forum, you will likely have a heart attack. Although it would be a bit entertaining watching you lecture their forum members on how, and what process to use, to spend their money.

----------

Jeff Mando, 

sgarrity, 

UlsterMando

----------


## sblock

Yes, a high income may give you the option to act as foolishly as you may choose -- as we have seen. However, having disposable wealth does not immunize someone against unwise acts. Nor does it immunize someone against all criticism for those acts. And just because you _can_ do something does not mean that you _should_ do that thing, after all.  If your point is that someone can do whatever they want with their own money, then I agree.  If your point is that the rest of us somehow have to agree with them about their decisions, or remain silent, well then, we disagree.

----------

f5joe, 

houseworker

----------


## pops1

I consider myself fortunate to have a very nice mandolin, and a couple other nice mandolins. I can only dream oh having a mandolin in excess on $10,000 unless I win the lottery, which I don't play, or inherit some serious money, which most likely won't happen. I have been enjoying this thread as here in the country where we live we don't get TV and can't watch reality shows, not that I would, well maybe I am following this. I am curious, (should I say that see below) to see what is in the box, hopefully it is a mandolin. I am also feeling good that one of the choices is a Brentrup, which while not an F, or a V8, I own and love. So I get to kind of be part of the search for an expensive mandolin that I can't afford,  but one that may sound similar to what I have. Don't get me wrong I like my A models and prefer them. I am also glad that they don't cost nearly as much and an F model does. I think my Brentrup sounds like a million bucks and while I would also like to own a Gilchrest, Dude, Red Diamond, Monteleone, Ellis, Kimble, well you get the idea, I am very happy with my mandolin. I am hoping Demetrius is getting a mandolin he will be as happy with as I am with mine, and it also makes me really glad I did not have to go through all this to get the one I connect to. Yes I went thru a few along the way, but always had a couple to play while the search went on.

Have you opened the box yet? Suspense is killing me, curiosity killed the cat so won't go there. :Laughing:

----------


## Steve-o

Dem - Let me join with the others who are enjoying this thread and say thanks for bringing us along on the journey. You and your wife seem like fun, good natured people, and I believe that you intentionally made a bit of theater out of something we all relate to here - MAS. I haven't followed a thread so closely on this forum in a long time. I look forward to finding out what's in the box, however you choose to tell the story.

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

Demetrius,
From what I can tell, sblock is genuinely trying to help. Remember that when you feel that first twinge of disappointment and dissatisfaction with your latest dream mandolin. Reading through this thread I have seen you express plenty of regrets about the foolish decisions you have already made. The only thing left to do is to learn from those mistakes.

----------


## Bob Clark

I'd be curious to know whether this stoked the latent MAS in other Cafe members, and whether some sales will be made on account of it.  Perhaps mandolin retailers should sponsor a thread like this once in a while when sales are a bit sluggish! :Grin:

----------


## DataNick

Wow!...435 posts, videos of whining under the sheets, the OP rancoring with the site owner about his wife's thread cancellation...

where's the  :Popcorn:

----------


## Hallmark498

> Wow!...435 posts, videos of whining under the sheets, the OP rancoring with the site owner about his wife's thread cancellation...
> 
> where's the


You forgot about sblock that seemingly stepped down from heaven to enlighten the OP with such valuable wisdom.

----------

Billy Packard, 

Relio, 

UlsterMando

----------


## UlsterMando

Fun . . . Anybody ? . . . Anybody ?

It's a pity that some senses of humour are failing. Mine is intact.
Demetrius is absolutely entitled to talk us through his mandolin search
for as long as he pleases. I've said it before and I say it again;

discussion ad nauseum is expected here, ad hominem is not !

Continue the search . . .

----------

Billy Packard, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Russ Donahue, 

Steve-o

----------


## Hallmark498

We "could" argue

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Another video clip before finally opening the package from the morning UPS trip...glad you all are having as much fun with this as we are! Life is either a tragedy or a comedy, am I right, friends?

We are a go...

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/home/we-are-a-go

----------

Billy Packard, 

Relio

----------


## UlsterMando

Drum roll . . .

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

Why don't we just use the drum roll from the post before he got the Gil? Or was there something wrong with that drum and he returned it?

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> Drum role please? Pumpumpumpumpumpum!


Oh yeah, I can hear it now. Smart move sending the drum back.

----------


## Jeff Mando

> A bit of advice, do not join a Patek Philippe forum, you will likely have a heart attack. Although it would be a bit entertaining watching you lecture their forum members on how, and what process to use, to spend their money.


Good point and gave me a chuckle.  My friend, who is retired, but owned a vintage guitar shop for years, likes to remind me that compared to collecting Van Gogh's or vintage automobiles -- we have a rather "inexpensive" hobby....

----------

Hallmark498, 

Relio, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Hallmark498

I'm going with a Gil F5.

----------


## Bob Clark

But will this statement on the Cafe homepage set off another round of hand wringing, videos, posting. . .?

_We have the inside on a spectacular used Gilchrist F-5 being sold by a public figure in music. Contact us if you're in the market._

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

I can't wait to find out. And by that I mean I can't wait to find out which retailer will be publicly maligned by Demetrius when he changes his mind about a mandolin he bought without ever playing it. The anticipation is killing me!

Seriously, if I had a nickel for every newbie who is patiently instructed by cafe members to first _play_ any mandolin he or she is thinking about buying (usually working with a $300-$500 budget), well, I would have enough to buy (and then return) a Gil or two myself.

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> Wow!...435 posts, videos of whining under the sheets, the OP rancoring with the site owner about his wife's thread cancellation...
> 
> where's the


Don't forget, nearly 25,000 page views, or about as many as a mediocre cat video on YouTube. But does Mr. Whiskers get his own blog? I don't think so.  :Wink:

----------

DataNick

----------


## DataNick

I've finally figured it out!

This is a social science experiment for a master's level class at some university...

----------

LadysSolo

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

This is MAS...mas mejor than a novella on Telemundo that is!

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Here it is, folks...at the stroke of 5:01...

The big reveal:

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/home/the-big-reveal

----------

darylcrisp, 

DataNick, 

John Eischen, 

Steve-o

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> I've finally figured it out!
> 
> This is a social science experiment for a master's level class at some university...


You may be right about the 'experiment' part Nick. At any time I expect to cut away to the Aliens discussing how a little disruption can throw Claude Akins and his whole neighborhood into a chaotic frenzy.

----------

DataNick

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

Just watched the breathtaking 'big reveal'. 
In all seriousness Demetrius...I hope it sounds as good as it looks. It looks about as good as it gets!

----------

darylcrisp, 

DataNick

----------


## Relio

Looked like a crappy packaging job, but a very cool reveal!!! I'd also like to see a review on the Hoffee case. I was able to guess what kind it was before you revealed the headstock because of the fretboard extension shape. I've bought four "high-end" instruments without playing them. It's such a scary feeling right before you play it, hoping it will sound as good as you hope. Out of my four experiences with this, two were VERY positive and two were disappointing (those 2 were returned). I hope you love the instrument. Also, Wiens are quite a bit less expensive than a Gil, so there's another positive. CONGRATS!

----------

Billy Packard, 

UlsterMando

----------


## George R. Lane

The Wiens, an excellent choice. Demetrius enjoy her for a long time. Now I can get back to my life.

----------

Billy Packard, 

DataNick, 

FLATROCK HILL

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> I would never toy with anyone on here, but I don't plan on just giving it away that boringly either...
> That is like investing 2 hrs of your time watching a movie that has a terrible ending.
> I owe more to you and to the others for all the great posts responses, not to mention 
> the incredible amount of private messages and helpful pointers that I've received.


I kinda took this to mean that you would do more than show us the headstock. My movie was supposed to end with, you know, you _playing_ the mandolin. Oh well.

----------


## UlsterMando

I knew it. The fretboard extension . . . irresistible !

Seriously, the mandolin looks gorgeous ! 
I look forward to the review . . . Congratulations !!

----------


## Josh Levine

That's he sequel

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> Looked like a crappy packaging job,


Yes, but I want to know what second rate mandolin dealer did such a shoddy packing job. Let the reputation besmirching begin!

----------


## DataNick

Now playing at The Mandolin Cafe:

_Demetrius's Big Adventure_
_Darryl Crisp's Mandolin of the Minute_
_What Sounds Like A Loar_
_Bill Monroe's Bluegrass America_
_Chris Thile_


...Think I'll go to another theatre and catch _Star Trek Beyond_ tonite...YMMV

----------

9lbShellhamer, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

George R. Lane, 

sgarrity

----------


## Josh Levine

Interested to hear how this thing sizes up to the menagerie of world class instruments Dem has owned/played.

----------


## Nick Gellie

Demetrius, might I suggest you write your needs down paper.

I would suggest that you write it down like JimMagill did in this review of his Heiden F5:

http://www.magills.net/HeidenF5.html

----------


## UlsterMando

> Interested to hear how this thing sizes up to the menagerie of world class instruments Dem has owned/played.


Second that.
I've always loved the details of the Wiens build. 
I have my dream mandolin, but if I ever get the itch again . . .
Dovetailed bone body points . . . Wonderful !

----------


## pheffernan

So how long is the approval period?  :Whistling:

----------


## JeffD

Is that a picture on the mantle of D playing with or for CT. If so, that's a story I want to hear.

----------


## darylcrisp

> Now playing at The Mandolin Cafe:
> 
> _Demetrius's Big Adventure_
> _Darryl Crisp's Mandolin of the Minute_
> _What Sounds Like A Loar_
> _Bill Monroe's Bluegrass America_
> _Chris Thile_
> 
> 
> ...Think I'll go to another theatre and catch _Star Trek Beyond_ tonite...YMMV


getting ready to cause a vortex, I have a new Wegen pick, and I like it better than the Blue Chip that I never use..........
d

----------

DataNick, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Steve-o

> The Wiens, an excellent choice. Demetrius enjoy her for a long time. Now I can get back to my life.


Yes!  You selected my vote Dem.  And it's drop dead gorgeous.  Can't wait to hear the review.

----------


## JAK

IMHO you can never tell if you like one mandolin better than another unless you play A/B them both in the same place at the same time. You mind will fool you unless you have a direct comparison. That said, I have the same philosophy that Grisman has = different mandolins have different voices, so enjoy the individual voice of each one. If you are happy with what you have, then you have arrived (until MAS strikes again).

----------

DataNick

----------


## Mark Wilson

> IMHO you can never tell if you like *one mandolin better than another* unless you play A/B them both in the same place at the same time.


Same here

----------


## Josh Levine

> Same here


My thought process when I have a nice mandolin in my hands. "Oh, this sounds nice"

----------


## Steve-o

I have a sneaking suspicion that Dem is not done with his Brentrup quest. Just sayin'.

----------


## Demetrius



----------


## UlsterMando

I can help sblock with some of the points they raised . . .


" . . . most of us can only dream of being able to drop five figures or more on the purchase 
of a truly high-end instrument.  And by the time any of us are spending in excess of $10,000 
on the next mandolin, we tend to be rather accomplished players, with "educated ears," a great 
deal of accumulated knowledge about luthiers, and a whole lot of personal listening experience 
under our belt. But not you. "

Most of us = not all of us.




" . . . and now there's an awful video of you lying in bed and whining to your wife about that, which she posted. "

It's humour.



" Most of us would be would be truly embarrassed to have something like that show 
up in a public forum.  And most of us would not be reduced to zero mandolins, 
yet attempting to buy some of the highest-priced ones out there. "

Most of us = not all of us. 



" A real mandolin player who can afford an instrument in the $10,000+ range would 
never get down to zero mandolins, because he or she would likely own one or more 
lesser instruments before springing for a Gilchrist, Wiens, Brentrup, Nugget, or what-have-you. "

What is a "real mandolin player" ?



" Then there's the profound silliness associated with your recent (failed) purchase -- and return -- of a fabulous, $16,000+ Gilchrist F5 from Gryphon Instruments, one of the leading shops in our nation.  You bought this mandolin without even listening to it, or so it seems.  And you promptly returned it because -- what?!? -- you were shocked, SHOCKED, that the binding was loose in some places, the finish had some crazing, and the setup was sub-optimal.  You very clearly don't understand high-end mandolins.  Lots of these have finish crazing; it makes little difference. Loose binding is easily re-glued for a negligible cost compared to the mandolin.  And the setup?! Well, the setup is so easy to fix that any competent mandolin luthier, and many of us players as well, are able to adjust this to perfection.  Not only that, but according to you, Gryphon offered to remedy these trivial issues, but you decided against that because you'd developed cold feet, or buyers' remorse, or some other silly feeling.  Oh, for goodness' sake, man! "

Approvall period = you may disapprove. 



" So now you are back to searching, and endless (and mostly pointless) online speculation. "

Most speculation is pointless eg.
Cafe members could be polite in their correspondence - couldn't they ?




" Your impetuous -- and frankly, embarrassing -- 'journey' to this point has raised a lot
of eyebrows here on the Mandoln Cafe, I can assure you "

Personal favourite.




" if nothing else, so you'll stop making those awful, whining videos 
that your wife posts "

It's humour.




" Most of us here would be deliriously happy plunking along on a Kentucky, Eastman, Weber, 
The Loar, Northfield, or whatever until The One happens to come along."

Most of us = Not all of us.



Demetrius, I hope that you are enjoying the new mandolin 
and that you guys will share a video of it in action soon.
Cheers

----------

Austin Bob, 

Drew Streip, 

Hallmark498

----------


## Drew Streip

Ulster -- it's nice to see how the 1% lives, am I right?! 

I think the real entertainment (and insight) comes from seeing the parallels with our own buying habits. Trust me: I took just as long to pull the trigger on my mando, at about 1/10th of Dem's budget. I played ones that "should" have satisfied me, but they just didn't. I probably would have written about it too (because I love to write and share stories) -- but I didn't even know about the Cafe yet. 

A new car is an interesting parallel, because it costs as much or more, but serves a different purpose. Demetrius is making a luxury purchase of $10K because he has that luxury. Many decent daily drivers can be had for about that much, but you try not to go without a car because it means the potential loss of livelihood. A mando? As good a player as Demetrius is, I assume he didn't earn his money solely by performing. (Side note: Dem, if you _did_ then I apologize and I want to start playing with you!) 

Congrats on the Wiens! It looks fantastic.

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## JKA

Personally I think Sbloc is having as much fun as we are following and contributing to this thread. It's good to have a range of opinions and I for one don't think Sbloc is doing anything other than making this thread even more interesting ( as well as pointing out a lot of what some of us are thinking but not wanting to court controversy)

I for one hope it continues...beats reading about the current plight that's happening in the world today. I had a similar dilemma when I used to suffer from GAS but my MAS has cured that (thank goodness) and as I get older I begin to understand more about the important things in life...like mandolins (whether we get to own them or not), good karma and a loving home.

----------

DataNick, 

Russ Donahue

----------


## UlsterMando

Drew Streip, indeed you are right !

Well Drew, hey it's all good clean fun.
Visited Chattanooga years ago to catch up with the late great Randy Howard
and Cathy Chiavola. We were adopted by one of Cathy's mandolin playing friends
who treated us like family during our stay. Great people, Great place.

    I understand Demetrius. My own high end mandolin purchases have been 
slightly nerve shredding experiences; whether to "pull the trigger" or not,
in the parlance of our times, was never a quick decision. Over the years 
I have learned to trust my intuition when making these decisions. 
   Demetrius is in the middle of this now and the sane mandolinist (oxymoron?) 
will understand. Yes it's hilarious and wonderfully entertaining. He clearly knows this.
I'm not alone in enjoying his irrepressible enthusiasm and good humour; as a fellow 
mando-maniac and as a character, Demetrius definitely adds to the gaiety of the Cafe.
It's a fun thread.
    I haven't chuckled so much since I was berated for writing long sentences . . . there
are clearly banjo players here too !

----------

Billy Packard

----------


## Mandobar

Too bad it's all over.  I was told that the Music Emporium is getting a Kimble 2-pointer today...........

----------

BelleHaven

----------


## UlsterMando

> Personally I think Sbloc is having as much fun as we are following and contributing to this thread. It's good to have a range of opinions and I for one don't think Sbloc is doing anything other than making this thread even more interesting ( as well as pointing out a lot of what some of us are thinking but not wanting to court controversy)
> 
> I for one hope it continues...beats reading about the current plight that's happening in the world today. I had a similar dilemma when I used to suffer from GAS but my MAS has cured that (thank goodness) and as I get older I begin to understand more about the important things in life...like mandolins (whether we get to own them or not), good karma and a loving home.


I think sblock speaks from the heart and that is as it should be. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Politeness is increasingly seen ad an "old fashioned" idea these days but in communicating with
others it really does help everything. 
Sblock does offer good advice. Choosing to add touches which suggest, however mildly, ridicule 
or contempt, simply obscures that sound advice. We must remember that it is difficult to evaluate
the tone of comments which, if made face to face, might clearly be understood as comic.
I agree that sblock's contribution has made this thread more interesting... 
I would actually second much of sblock's advice. Lots of solid good sense there.


Thanks, JKA  . . . mandolins good karma and a loving home.
You make a good deal of sense yourself.

----------

Hallmark498, 

Steve-o

----------


## Nick Gellie

I will put a good home,  loving family, ahead of the lust for a mandolin any day.  Isn't the underlying motivation behind MAS lust and the desire for something special and exquisite in a mandolin at a given price? Thus endeth the lesson. :Disbelief:

----------


## pheffernan

> I will put a good home,  loving family, ahead of the lust for a mandolin any day.  Isn't the underlying motivation behind MAS lust and the desire for something special and exquisite in a mandolin at a given price? Thus endeth the lesson.


You teach us with your words and your example, Nic.  :Laughing: 

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/101123#101123

----------

Mandobar

----------


## Steve-o

> Too bad it's all over.  I was told that the Music Emporium is getting a Kimble 2-pointer today...........


Who says it's all over?   :Wink:  :Popcorn:

----------

DataNick, 

UlsterMando

----------


## DataNick

My contribution to this Sat morning's funnies:

I must be weird I guess; here's how I acquired my 94'F5L:

Cafe member Eddie Sheehy sends out an email to his mando buddies saying he's just played a real good Gibson F5 that has a lot of cosmetic damage but is really good, nonetheless, and that the seller is in a crunch to sell quickly. Eddie also gave the Craigslist link. I checked it out on Craigslist, contacted the seller, arranged a meetup at Eddie's place for that Sat, met the seller there (who I knew)played it, worked out a buying arrangement, went home with the mandolin.

Guess I'm weird!....OK back to the regularly scheduled Sat morning funnies; hey I'm getting entertained, it ain't Star Trek, but it's entertainment...YMMV

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

Well Nick, Your story may not have all of the twists and turns...edge-of-your-seat suspense to be found in this thread but...
If I remember correctly, there was a small docu-thread that accompanied the funding, purchase and initial bonding with your new (to you) Gibson. More of a short story than a Tolstoy novel.  :Wink:

----------

DataNick

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Happy Saturday, Everyone :-)

Here's a video clip of Dem playing a lullaby duet with his brother, Alex - appropriately served as a lullaby to our 4-year-old asleep in bed. Dem is playing his new Wiens and Alex is, of course, on his Brentrup.

The video got a bit cut off before the solo section because of silly iPhone storage issues, but it's still a 3-minute gem.

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...dnight-lullaby

Enjoy!

----------

Russ Donahue, 

Steve-o, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Demetrius

This is what prolonged MAS bout does to a mandolinist and the thier spouse...  :Smile:

----------

Billy Packard, 

George R. Lane, 

Hendrik Ahrend

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Okay, oops...apparently it was a major faux pas to write "his new Wiens" instead of "the Wiens on trial"...sorry, Sweetie! I'm still learning the ropes here...

----------

Demetrius

----------


## DataNick

Demetrius,

I must admit I'm intrigued, and btw: Congrats! Hope this one works out for you.

What exactly is your name, where are you located, and what is the band you play in?
I'd like to check you guys out on YouTube, etc. if OK.

I'll start:

B.K. (Nick) Nicholson 
Fallbrook, CA.

Bands:
Desperado
High Mountain Road
The GrassBlasters

YouTube videos posted on each page for reference

Your turn:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Dave Reiner

Hi Dem, 

So I won't see you over at the Music Emporium today?

Sad to lose the thrill of the hunt :-)

Dave

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Josh Levine

> Okay, oops...apparently it was a major faux pas to write "his new Wiens" instead of "the Wiens on trial"...sorry, Sweetie! I'm still learning the ropes here...


Uhoh, this and the lack of excitement about the Wiens seems like foreshadowing...

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Josh Levine

> My contribution to this Sat morning's funnies:
> 
> I must be weird I guess; here's how I acquired my 94'F5L:
> 
> Cafe member Eddie Sheehy sends out an email to his mando buddies saying he's just played a real good Gibson F5 that has a lot of cosmetic damage but is really good, nonetheless, and that the seller is in a crunch to sell quickly. Eddie also gave the Craigslist link. I checked it out on Craigslist, contacted the seller, arranged a meetup at Eddie's place for that Sat, met the seller there (who I knew)played it, worked out a buying arrangement, went home with the mandolin.
> 
> Guess I'm weird!....OK back to the regularly scheduled Sat morning funnies; hey I'm getting entertained, it ain't Star Trek, but it's entertainment...YMMV


Don't omit the crying under the sheets videos, Nick...

----------

DataNick, 

Demetrius

----------


## George R. Lane

I don't understand why a few of you are so upset with Demetrius about his journey to find his "one". It seems he has the blessing from his wife and must have the $$ to make such a purchase, so why do you care, it is not your concern. If you have an opposing opinion keep it to yourself. Like the old saying, 'If you have nothing good to say, keep it to yourself'. I hope the Wiens is the 'One' and his journey is over and he and his family live happily ever after. Just my 2 cents.

----------

Clement Barrera-Ng, 

Demetrius, 

UlsterMando

----------


## JKA

> Happy Saturday, Everyone :-)
> 
> Here's a video clip of Dem playing a lullaby duet with his brother, Alex - appropriately served as a lullaby to our 4-year-old asleep in bed. Dem is playing his new Wiens and Alex is, of course, on his Brentrup.
> 
> The video got a bit cut off before the solo section because of silly iPhone storage issues, but it's still a 3-minute gem.
> 
> http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...dnight-lullaby
> 
> Enjoy!


Beautiful...outstanding musicianship from you and your brother. When I play with mine there's almost a telepathy between us, it's fairly obvious this is the same for you guys...must be the sibling thing.

----------

Demetrius, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Mark Wilson

> I hope the Wiens is the 'One' and his journey is over


absolutely - but if there is a pool I want in.

----------

Demetrius, 

George R. Lane

----------


## DataNick

> I don't understand why a few of you are so upset with Demetrius about his journey to find his "one". It seems he has the blessing from his wife and must have the $$ to make such a purchase, so why do you care, it is not your concern. If you have an opposing opinion keep it to yourself. Like the old saying, 'If you have nothing good to say, keep it to yourself'. I hope the Wiens is the 'One' and his journey is over and he and his family live happily ever after. Just my 2 cents.


I'm not upset George...I'm intrigued in an "amused" sort of way...I'd like to know more about Demetrius as I posted earlier and am grateful for his "sharing"...

----------

Demetrius

----------


## JeffD

> My own high end mandolin purchases have been 
> slightly nerve shredding experiences;


This is what I struggle to understand. Its exciting, yes, but I am not sure being over the top excited and wanting to get it right is the same as nerve shredding. Nerve shredding is facing a plant layoff, or having to fire an employee. Nerve shredding is sitting in the waiting room of a hospital to learn the results.

Well maybe its just semantics.

My first super quality mandolin - I purchased by walking into Mandolin Emporium, in the Boston area, many many years ago, playing a few mandolins, and getting some prices, walking around the block a couple of times to decide if I wanted to spend $1000.00 on a mandolin, (this is back in the 80s) and then buying it. 

Mandolin purchases since then have been about the same in terms of emotional disruption. Sometimes I might have to "walk around the block" three or four times, but nothing has ever taken more than a day to pull that trigger. Understand, I may have lusted after a particular model for years, and patiently saved for it, but when time came it was pretty much "I'll take that one thank you."

We are all different. I have some really wonderful mandolins, that I would not be ashamed to play with anyone else's, but I have not spent the serious kind of money discussed here. Maybe that is the  key. When one spends that kind of money one does not want to compromise.

I don't want to own any mandolin so expensive that it costs me a month of nervous agitation before I even acquire it. Not to mention the worry and obsessive care I would take in storing, transporting, and playing the darn thing.

But I think D made a good decision, and has a mandolin that will make him happy for the rest of his life, and life being what it is, that is a very good thing.

And I love watching this movie, it at least makes more sense to me than most of what is on tv.

----------

Demetrius, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Demetrius

Yup! It's a keeper... Stay tuned for more info as soon as I can put this down for a sec...

----------

Billy Packard, 

Clement Barrera-Ng, 

DataNick, 

John Eischen, 

Mark Wilson, 

sgarrity, 

Steve-o, 

TEvans, 

UlsterMando

----------


## sgarrity

That's a beauty!

----------


## George R. Lane

> I'm not upset George...I'm intrigued in an "amused" sort of way...I'd like to know more about Demetrius as I posted earlier and am grateful for his "sharing"...



Nick,
I wasn't referring to you. I understand where you are coming from.

----------

DataNick

----------


## Demetrius

Fact: Every person on this thread had a part in my decision. Ultimately, in the end it was my fingers and ears that gave it the go, but all the incredible words of mando wisdom on here played a big part in my search. So, thank you! 

Now that being said, if you think this thread and our silly videos have now come to an end, then I'm sorry to say... 
You're wrong... There is always another "search to continue"...

----------

Steve-o

----------


## DataNick

Good on you Brotha!

PM me with who you are, were you're at, what's your band's name etc....would like to keep in contact offline...

----------


## houseworker

> I don't understand why a few of you are so upset with Demetrius about his journey to find his "one". It seems he has the blessing from his wife and must have the $$ to make such a purchase, so why do you care, it is not your concern. If you have an opposing opinion keep it to yourself. Like the old saying, 'If you have nothing good to say, keep it to yourself'


You could have usefully offered that advice to Demetrius before he started sending the site owner abusive emails, couldn't you?

----------

Franc Homier Lieu

----------


## Josh Levine

> You could have usefully offered that advice to Demetrius before he started sending the site owner abusive emails, couldn't you?


Last I checked, Scott is pretty good at moderating the site on his own and with the mods.

----------

sgarrity, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Jim Garber

Congratulations, Demetrius. Lovely playing on that video (tho I would have liked better lighting). I embedded it below for convenience.

I also have to say that throughout the journey Demetrius and, of course, his lovely wife both maintained a wonderful attitude throughout.

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## jaycat

> . . . Like the old saying, 'If you have nothing good to say, keep it to yourself'. . . .


Or as sometimes quoted, "if you have nothing good to say, you come sit right here next to me."

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> If you have an opposing opinion keep it to yourself.


Nope.

----------


## Mandobar

> Who says it's all over?


I believe Demetrius has

----------


## Relio

Glad to hear it's a keeper. Enjoy in good health!

----------


## Nick Gellie

> You teach us with your words and your example, Nic. 
> 
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/101123#101123


Pat you are welcome into my home any day and see the example I set.  I must admit I feel for Demetrius in the pursuit of his ultimate mandolin.  I hope he has no buyer remorse and keeps the Wiens for a very long time.

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## UlsterMando

Genuinely happy for you. 
It looks great in the photos
It sounds great in the video. 
Enjoy.

----------


## Sheryl McDonald

Ahh, but even Dem said it -- the search isn't over.  

Doesn't he need a backup mandolin?

What I seemed to miss reading  in this story, is how Dem ended up with no mandolins.  That doesn't sound like a mandocafe member at all. There should have been a campfire mandolin stashed somewhere in the house!

----------


## JeffD

So I am still waiting to hear about that picture of you playing with Chris Thile...

----------


## greg_tsam

I'm glad I missed all the fireworks and just saw the lullaby. Great mando. Congrats!

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> So I am still waiting to hear about that picture of you playing with Chris Thile...


Ahh yes. The summer that picture was taken, Chris had been making use of his gym membership. His upper body size and strength was pretty impressive. Showing off for the chicks one evening, he uncurled his scroll with his bare hands!

----------


## Demetrius

That's my brother Alex...

----------

FLATROCK HILL

----------


## JeffD

Where are my glasses. Holdup.

----------


## DataNick

> Demetrius,
> 
> I must admit I'm intrigued, and btw: Congrats! Hope this one works out for you.
> 
> What exactly is your name, where are you located, and what is the band you play in?
> I'd like to check you guys out on YouTube, etc. if OK.
> 
> I'll start:
> 
> ...


Silence from one Mr. Demetrius...hmmm.....even Dawg & Steffey have posted here authenticating who they were...still waiting Brotha....

----------


## Jim Garber

> Silence from one Mr. Demetrius...hmmm.....even Dawg & Steffey have posted here authenticating who they were...still waiting Brotha....


I would imagine he is really busy playing his new mandolin. His Youtube channel is Demetrius BecrelisI assume that is his name.

Here's the one video, very nice playing on his brother's Stealth. Hey that could be the title of the film adapted from this thread: "His Brother's Stealth".

----------

DataNick

----------


## Eric C.

> Silence from one Mr. Demetrius...hmmm.....even Dawg & Steffey have posted here authenticating who they were...still waiting Brotha....


Nick,
Pretty sure band name is somewhere in this thread. He plays guitar in it if I remember. I'm not re-reading haha.

----------

DataNick

----------


## Josh Levine

Just gotta poke around Nick... http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/TrippingLily

----------

DataNick

----------


## Russ Donahue

Look up Tripping Lilly. And man, lets not be rough on one another. This is a congenial space.

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## Demetrius

http://www.cdbaby.com/m/cd/trippinglily1

We are on hiatus and each doing individual projects for the time being. 11 years on the rd was a good run, but we were all ready for something different. The link above is a 7 yr old example. We supported the heck out of that record for 4 yrs I believe. All instrumentation was recorded primarily live. The mandolins used on that record was a Red Diamond F-5 and a Martin F Brunkalla F-5.

----------

DataNick

----------


## DataNick

Thanks D!

No chapsticks, just vettin...Love your playing Brotha!

----------


## Canoedad

So is it boxed up yet?   

We're starving for content over here!   :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Demetrius

When I'm silent, it's never a good thing.... Just sayin

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Hi All.

I have a confession to make.

I was not supportive of Demetrius getting the Gilchrist F-5.

Demetrius felt a connection with this instrument, even though there were some issues... and still I was not supportive. I was concerned about a whole host of things that, ultimately, had nothing to do with what Demetrius felt with that instrument.

What I didn't realize is, that even though most people didn't even like this particular Gilchrist, my husband thought it was indeed perfect...for him.

Now, the Wiens is undoubtedly a beautiful, powerful mandolin. Literally everyone has said so. It has consistent sound, good set-up, impeccably crafted...it has it all. In fact, the Wiens is probably the mandolin most players would prefer over the Gilchrist... but not Demetrius. He likes the tight radius'd board, Engleman top, and other unique things that made this Gilchrist speak to only him.

So, we've figured out what mandolin Demetrius wants, right? You may think, okay this is it!

Herein lies the problem: The time has passed to return the Wiens.

So, I'm asking you all...what do I do? Do I help him sell the Wiens and try to get back the Gilchrist? How will that look in the small mandolin buying and selling world? How do I even go about doing this, much less without getting some majorly negative responses?

Any and all help you can provide to me would be greatly appreciated.

--The Musician's Wife

----------


## KMaynard

:Popcorn:

----------


## JKA

Excuse my ignorance but can somebody please explain to me the significance of the reference to 'Popcorn' that's so often seen on a thread?

I know it's probably a dumb question but hey...if you don't ask...

Cheers

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> So, I'm asking you all...what do I do?


Why not go back and read this thread from the beginning? Lots of good advice there.

----------


## Steve-o

> Excuse my ignorance but can somebody please explain to me the significance of the reference to 'Popcorn' that's so often seen on a thread?
> 
> I know it's probably a dumb question but hey...if you don't ask...
> 
> Cheers


JKA,

I take it as a reference to sitting back and watching a movie, or in this case, the drama of a reality TV show.

----------

greg_tsam

----------


## Jstring

> Excuse my ignorance but can somebody please explain to me the significance of the reference to 'Popcorn' that's so often seen on a thread?
> 
> I know it's probably a dumb question but hey...if you don't ask...
> 
> Cheers


The meaning of popcorn? The person who posts a popcorn is essentially saying: "this thread is so contentious that it's about to blow up with fiery comments traded back and forth... I'm going to sit back, eat some popcorn, and see how long it takes this thread to get locked!"

For example, if someone asks "isn't a 'The Loar' just as good as a Lloyd Loar?".... Popcorn!!

Or, "wouldn't it be dumb to pay $35 for a pick?"... Popcorn!!!

In this thread, popcorn is very appropriate.... Although I think the OPs very nice wife should stop encouraging her husband's behavior at this point and tell him to go play his amazing mandolin....

----------


## Steve-o

My advice would be to keep both mandolins, but that might not be doable at this price point. There's nothing wrong with acquiring instruments, playing them, and then moving them along in catch-and-release fashion.  The word of caution here is, how do you know (based on Dem's track record) that he won't change his mind again one week later assuming he can even acquire the Gil?

----------


## JKA

Thank you for taking the time to explain the Popcorn reference Steve and Jstring...I appreciate it. 
Time to hunker down (with my popcorn) and see how this pans out.

----------


## almeriastrings

> JKA,
> 
> I take it as a reference to sitting back and watching a movie, or in this case, the drama of a reality TV show.


Or a highly predictable train wreck in slow motion.

 :Popcorn:

----------

Franc Homier Lieu, 

greg_tsam, 

houseworker

----------


## Eric C.

This thread was entertaining, now it's just absurd...

----------


## Bob Clark

There were quite a few postings urging Demetrius to slow down, do some exploration and give it some thought.  These recommendations seem to have gone unheeded.  I think the recent turn of events demonstrates that they were wise counsel indeed.  

I really do wish Demetrius all the best in his musical endeavors.  I remember being impressed by Tripping Lily way back when.  Obviously he is a talented and accomplished musician and I really respect that.  

But rather than requesting yet more advice, I think it may be beneficial to do what has already been suggested by some.  Slow down.  Do some exploration.  Give it some thought.  

There are great mandolins for sale today and there will be great mandolins for sale tomorrow.  They are not going away.  Relax and take it slowly.  In time, the right one will come along. 

I really am trying to purr more and hiss less.  Thus far, I think I am succeeding.  My comments above really are meant to help.

----------

almeriastrings, 

DataNick, 

George R. Lane, 

houseworker, 

Josh Levine, 

Roman Pekar, 

sgarrity

----------


## Demetrius

Hey guys! Really everything is fine, I'm just trying to adjust to the flatboard. The sound of the Wiens is warm, dark, and woody.The feel of it is to me, milky? Does that make sense? Which is good... It doesn't seem to have much sustain which is another thing I'm trying to adjust to. I'm sure in time I will, it's just gonna time getting to know it. It is the only flatboard, adi topped instrument I own so it's response and feel and sound are just foreign to me. I agree with those who say, stick with the Wiens and just play the heck out of it and make it my own, which I have been doing it. This would explain my disappearance since I got it. In fact I apologize cause there have been a few posters who have asked questions and I haven't been to repos naive to those, so again I do apologize. Same to the private messages, I will answer all of them. But going back to the Mando What I really do like about it is, it's a blank pallet. You know what I mean? It is fundimentaly a very solid, even and rather non complex core sound, which leads me to believe through lots of play it'll evolve to the way I play it. For those of you with Adi topped instruments Id love to hear your expirience with how it broke it. All I've really ever had was engelman tops, and the two mandos that were adi I moved before I could find out how they open. Thanks for reading, and I just appreciate you all so much. I really do...

Dem

----------


## Stevo75

This thread has done more to cure my MAS than anything else.  :Smile:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## William Smith

> This thread has done more to cure my MAS than anything else.


Never a cure my friend! NEVER

----------


## Upis Land

Dem,

I'd say you're in great position of opportunity. The Wiens has something to teach you. Rejoice in learning its lessons. Give it three or more months. Mastering its differences is bound to make you a better player. Then when the time is right another instrument may present itself for the next leg of the journey. Or else maybe the Wiens won't let you go. But you will know. All is well.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

I like that idea, that is essentially what happened with my acoustic guitar that I had made..
11 years later its still my favorite guitar ever.. At first? Not so much, it took time to get aquatinted but once we connected, well that was the end of GAS.

----------


## Perilous Deep

Along the lines of what Upis suggested: take Joe Walsh's advice speaking about getting his Gilchrist Model 3 in this video. He made a commitment to himself to play it for year before making any decision about whether it was the one to keep for good. Prudent advice, especially if you're dealing with a new(-ish) mandolin that needs some time to get played in.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Although this is a 2013 Wiens build, it is basically a new instrument. I don't think this got much play if any. 

Any words on Red spruce topped mandos? Any specific character traits that trickle out after different durations of time with solid 5 hrs of play daily?

----------


## Jim Garber

> I'm just trying to adjust to the flatboard.


Contact Jamie and ask him if he will replace the fretboard with a radiused one made to your specs. If he is willing, have him make any other adjustments or fixes so it is closer to perfect. Play this mandolin to your heart's content and, as others suggested give it some time. You are an excellent player and you should be able to get what you want out of it from slightly adapting playing styles, trying different strings, picks, etc. See how it goes. I would think you could sell it for a decent price. It is a very desirable mandolin. Just my dos centavos.

----------


## almeriastrings

OK... well... I can tell you I had (still have, actually) a new Jim Triggs '23 F5 that has a red spruce top and is very, very dry. Definitely in the 'Loar' camp.... too dry, and a bit 'tight' for my tastes in some ways, but... a very good mandolin. I also have my Ellis F-5 Special... now that has a lot more "richness", sustain, overtones... and is without a doubt "THE" one for me - bar none. So, red spruce mandolins differ a lot. There are other things going on. All of them have different voices and they are all (at this kind of level) fine instruments.... bottom line: find something you like and play it!

----------

DataNick, 

Flame Maple

----------


## Demetrius

Thanks Jim, good advice my friend...

Almeriastrings, if your Ellis a Red spruce top? yeh its the dryness Im trying to get used to... very very dry.
The Gilchrist had to almost everyone who played it too much sustain and was too bright but for me it just really worked. 
It was the furthest thing from a hoss, and not a whole of of bottom end at all, but again to me it just worked.
As far as the Gilchrist there was more to the story when I returned it and I just don't want to  post about it but believe 
me when I say I expressed wanting it back after minor repairs were done. Not much more I could do...

----------


## Demetrius

I will say though, I think the dryness on the Wiens is due to the fact it just needs to be played. Im already hearing a spidget of complexity setting in... Not in a sustain way, but in a choral type of way.

----------

Billy Packard

----------


## Relio

When I was in the market I was torn for a bit between a Kimble F5 and an Ellis F5. The Ellis instruments I played did have more overtones and complexity. In person I was leaning a bit towards the complex sound, but on recordings I preferred the drier, fundamental tone. I ended up going with the Kimble and I could not be happier. The nice thing about your Wiens is that it should hold its value fairly well so if you decide to sell it in a couple years you shouldn't take a huge hit. A funny thing I've noticed is that many of my favorite things in life, I didn't like much when I was first introduced to it. I'd give your Wiens time....

----------


## almeriastrings

> Almeriastrings, if your Ellis a Red spruce top? .



Yes.

----------


## sgarrity

Get a Tone-Rite and use it.  I'm not sure if it was the placebo effect or if it really worked but when I used it on my former Gilchrist, it made a difference to me.  I like the fuller, more modern tone that Engelmann tends to impart which is why I have a Heiden with a one piece Engelmann top and a one piece red maple back.  But I also love the dry, clear, fundamental tone of a good Red Spruce topped bluegrass beast, which is why I have a Kimble F5 in those woods.  So see, the obvious solution to your dilemma is a second mandolin!   :Grin:   :Mandosmiley: 

But seriously, keep it for 6-12 months, play the heck out of it and then move it down the road if you haven't bonded.  There are other Engelmann topped Gils out there.  Charlie Derrington's old F5 Classical model was the one that got away for me.

----------

DataNick

----------


## 9lbShellhamer

I have, or, _have_ owned several Red Spruce topped mandolins and they couldn't be any more different... 

The Northfield was a December of 2015 build. It was loud, and INCREDIBLY open and resonant. The treble was rich and sweet and wet. The treble notes had good clarity but the bass courses did not have _great_ note clarity. It had sustain for days and had great playability. I sold it because I got an opportunity to buy a Gibson F5 Custom and I wasn't in love with the soft finish of the Northfield. If it wasn't for the finish issues I would wish I still owned the Northfield. It's sacrilege to say this, but it sounded as good as an Ellis, it had a GIANT midrange as well. The Northfield didn't cut like my Collings in a jam, but neither does my Gibson.. Nothing beats the Collings in a jam. 

My Collings is the embodiment of what I want out of a Red Spruce topped mandolin. It has the loudest, punchiest, most beastly tone. It's really complex too. If there was ever a banjo DESTROYER, this is it. It's a 2002...so it's aged and been played a lot in the last few years. (I can only recall one SPECIFIC Heiden that might have equalled it's cutting power, and that one Heiden beat it in most other areas, like note clarity, etc. Also, there was one Gil that may cut as well and ONE Altman I played.) The Collings tone is very very bright and it is OPEN. It does not have as much sustain as the Northfield. It has more than my Gibson though. The Gibson has more note clarity than the Collings. The Gibson isn't a adi top though and that's what you want info on. 

Once again, I think it really depends on each individual mandolin, not necessarily the reputation of the builder. My Collings sounds much more open and resonant and COMPLEX than other newer Collings' I've played...maybe it's the age, or maybe mine is just great. 

My advice would be to play the Wiens for a while, and settle into it, but if you don't LOVE it, then sell it. The whole point of this journey is to find one that you LOVE more than you could ever imagine. If your budget is theoretically unlimited (which is is at the $20K price point),you have like 99.99% of the worlds available mandolins at your price-point.  you should LOVE it's looks, LOVE it's tone, LOVE it's fretboard, LOVE 100% of it. Don't settle, don't sell yourself short. 

You should have your soulmate at that price. 

Hang on to the Wiens for a few months, but SELL it if you don't fall madly in love, and if you sell it: Take the money, take a trip to Nashville, play before you buy, you'll be shocked at what you find you like vs what you don't. Shopping online for a mandolins is a wild goose chase... Its VERY fun, but it's a goose chase.

BEST of luck as the journey continues. :Smile:

----------

darylcrisp, 

DataNick, 

Sheryl McDonald

----------


## sblock

With each new post to this trainwreck of a thread, I feel increasingly vindicated about all the helpful advice that was offered, but promptly ignored.  And _shame on those of you_ who told me to shut up and go away.  You truly don't understand what the MC is about when attempt to silence opinions that happen diverge from your own.  

Here is a recap of some of the advice:

1) Don't be compulsive and act in a rush when going about purchasing a truly high-end mandolin.  Take the time to better educate your ears and hands first about the wide variety of sounds and playabilities that exist out there in this lofty price range.  Travel to some places where you can gain more first-hand experience before shelling out $10,000-$20,000 -- or more.  It's better to compare mandolins on an A/B basis when you can, rather than simply relying on your memory.  The cost of a plane flight to Nashville is less than 10% of what you're thinking about spending, so consider that.  Even if you come back with nothing, you will have learned a great deal.

2)  Don't buy a high-end instrument as your first and only mandolin. Get something decent, but perhaps not truly top-end, to tide you over as you search for the ultimate mandolin. Something in the $2,000-$4,000 range, like a Pava, Northfield, Collings, Weber, or the like would do very very nicely indeed. This should remove some of the edge, and your compulsion to buy.  Or just get a 'beater,' in the $800-$1500 range.  But have something to fall back on.  Besides, you will need this mandolin whenever your high-end instrument goes in for repair, or whenever you go places where you can't risk taking along that expensive instrument.  The purchase of a "lesser" mandolin only represents 10%-30% of what you'd spend on that top-end instrument, so it's a solid investment.

3) Don't purchase and then return a high-end instrument for trivial reasons that are easily remedied by any competent luthier, like a bit of loose binding or some crazed finish or a minor issue with the bridge or setup.  That betrays a real ignorance, and shows that you don't understand much about what you're doing.  Buyer's remorse is less likely to occur when you are on top of your game.

4) Don't whine!


People love this thread because it illustrates a clear example the heartfelt passion that underlies MAS, which so many of us suffer from. We feel empathy, and we are experiencing vicariously with you.  And that's all fine.  But when your evident passion gives way to obsession followed by impulsive actions, it begins to lose sense.  You really need to slow down a bit and catch your breath, I'd argue. Your wife now writes that you may have settled for that Wiens when you liked the Gilchrist better.  And you appear to have panicked on the Gilchrist and sent it back due to some minor issues that really weren't about the sound. And now the dealer, who offered to fix the minor things (Gryphon), would rather not deal with you -- and small wonder!  There surely must be a lot of buyer's remorse, now that the return period for the Wiens has lapsed, the Gilchrist is stuck in your mind, and you are out many thousands of dollars that you rushed into spending before doing all your homework.  And that's not funny; it's tragic. These are all symptoms of a lack of confidence, or knowledge, or both, i.e., of not really knowing what you're truly doing. That's my opinion, anyway, and I'm sticking to it. 

There are some lessons to be learned from this thread for all of us on the MC. Lessons about passion versus obsession. Lessons about having a lot of disposable income to spend. Lessons about listening to our MC colleagues, and not rushing to silence them.  Lessons about listening to mandolins, and not rushing to buy them.  

But what the hell, learn to love that Wiens -- enjoy it: I'm sure it's a terrific mandolin, regardless if it's not The One -- and move forward with your life, poorer but wiser.

----------

Benski, 

DataNick, 

Demetrius, 

f5joe, 

Franc Homier Lieu, 

houseworker, 

Roman Pekar, 

The Musician's Wife

----------


## Demetrius

Thank you Sblock

----------


## JeffD

> But what the hell, learn to love that Wiens -- enjoy it: I'm sure it's a terrific mandolin, regardless if it's not The One -- and move forward with your life.


It is OH MY GOD terrific. Money cannot buy happiness but it can buy you a world class mandolin to play until you find happiness.

I would only add to sblocks comments:

I have never made a decision where I wondered if the other choice might have been better. And that question, or twinge of regret lasts a while with me. I have learned to ignore it because, I now realize, I would have the same feelings if I chose the other option. There is no escaping some kind of questioning and regret. There is no decision that avoids it. None. 

The best thing, IMO, that you can do, is get on to playing the dern thing and enjoy the  potatoes out of it, knowing you have an awesome mandolin in your  hands that many, many of us can only experience vicariously through your joy.

There are other mandolins, and differences that are more or less significant to your tastes, but there really are few if any mandolins better than what you have.

Stop shopping and get on with the joy. You really don't have the wrong mandolin. None of  your choices were the wrong mandolin.

----------

darylcrisp, 

Demetrius

----------


## Bob Clark

> Stop shopping and get on with the joy. You really don't have the wrong mandolin. None of  your choices were the wrong mandolin.


To that, I can only add:

_"If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with."_
Stephen Stills

PS. Maybe not original to Stephen stills, but that's who most of us know it from.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## JeffD

Yes. Even more so because the one he is with is an amazing one. The difference between the one he has and his other options is far far smaller than the difference between what he has and what most of us have.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## UlsterMando

> It iThe best thing, IMO, that you can do, is get on to playing the dern thing and enjoy the  potatoes out of it . . .


Enjoy the potatoes out of it !
JeffD you crack me up sir. 

 :Cow:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Relio

> .... and move forward with your life, poorer but wiser.


Poorer? From what I gathered, he moved an instrument to free up funds for this purchase. Also, these instruments tend to hold their value pretty well, it's not like he flushed money down a toilet.

----------

Demetrius, 

UlsterMando

----------


## JeffD

I just have a bit of experience that has driven home to me that most of us will lose our health before we lose our life, and I intend to get the maximum amount of playing into the time I have available.

----------

Mandobar, 

UlsterMando

----------


## JeffD

I will admit it is hard for me to think it, much less say it, without a crooked kind of smile and a raised eyebrow. Repeat after me:




> I have a Weins, my own, to have and to hold and to play for ever. 
> 
> But its not a Gilchrist.


I see you smiling.

----------


## Mandobar

> Poorer? From what I gathered, he moved an instrument to free up funds for this purchase. Also, these instruments tend to hold their value pretty well, it's not like he flushed money down a toilet.


Nothing right now is holding value.  I've been buying and selling instruments for more than 20 years and have never seen the market like this.

And it costs money to ship overnight, both ways, several times.

----------

DataNick, 

Franc Homier Lieu, 

sgarrity

----------


## sblock

"Live!  Life's a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death"   _Auntie Mame_

You have plenty to enjoy, and plenty of time to begin the real enjoyment.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Relio

> Nothing right now is holding value.  I've been buying and selling instruments for more than 20 years and have never seen the market like this.
> 
> And it costs money to ship overnight, both ways, several times.


Nothing... Really? Ok... I made money on my last mando sale... I wonder what I'm doing wrong....

----------


## Steve-o

> Nothing right now is holding value.  I've been buying and selling instruments for more than 20 years and have never seen the market like this.
> 
> And it costs money to ship overnight, both ways, several times.


All the more reason to keep the Wiens for a year or two.  He presumably bought low, and with the right timing, may be able to sell high.

----------


## sblock

> Poorer? From what I gathered, he moved an instrument to free up funds for this purchase. Also, these instruments tend to hold their value pretty well, it's not like he flushed money down a toilet.


I believe that money invested in a great instrument is rarely money "flushed down the toilet."  I never implied that, and I never would write that! I can't understand where you got that.  But whenever we invest a lot of money, we are -- by definition -- poorer for having made the expense. Yes, we might be able to recoup the investment.  We might even be able to make a profit, if the value of the instrument appreciates significantly.  But except for a few collectors and dealers, most of us get mandolins for the pleasure of playing them, and don't really think of them as practical investments. And most of us "lose money," if you think about it that way.  If it were just about the money, we'd probably be better off by keeping our money in the bank, or investing it in stocks, bonds, or real estate.  But if we did that, we'd have no great mandolin to play!

The best advice is still this, regardless of the path:  Educate yourself. Buy whatever you can afford to buy, play it like there's no tomorrow, and enjoy it.  And try not to look back.  :Smile:

----------

DataNick

----------


## Demetrius

Looks like an autumn sky...

----------

Russ Donahue, 

sgarrity

----------


## barry

Demetrius,

You bought a fine instrument.  Enjoy playing it.  But, keep in mind, you are not forced into a lifelong commitment.  Learn what it does well.  Determine what it does for you.  Or, what it doesn't.  I know from experience that if I don't absolutely love an instrument from the start, I never will.  
But that doesn't mean you can't still have a meaningful fling, even if it's a temporary thing.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## UlsterMando

> The best advice is still this, regardless of the path:  Educate yourself. Buy whatever you can afford to buy, play it like there's no tomorrow, and enjoy it.  And try not to look back.


Nicely summed up.
But don't just enjoy it. Enjoy the potatoes out of it.

----------


## red7flag

Demetrius, Your journey stimulated my own.  But, mine after three days of research and Cafe opinions, I was plain tired and ready to make a decision.  You can find the thread in the CBOM section here: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...rester-Cittern  I really enjoyed the experience, but was not willing to draw it out as I really desired resolution.  I wish to thank you for your story, but glad I was able to cut mine short.  Thanks for you example, even if I only partially followed it.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## jaycat

> Looks like an autumn sky...


Oh, that thing one can admire for free?

----------

Demetrius, 

Franc Homier Lieu

----------


## The Musician's Wife

An interview with Dem about the Wiens...

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...rview-with-dem

----------

darylcrisp

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

Ok...it's time to replace the picture on top of your home page with the new Wiens. 
(Maybe that one never belonged to Demetrius.?. I see it has the dreaded flat fingeboard.)

----------


## LadysSolo

I stand by my original opinion: If you can afford it, buy the Gil too and enjoy them both!

----------


## Demetrius

The Gil sold..... :~/

----------


## sgarrity

It's a video and I get the shortcomings, but that thing sounds good.  MUCH better than the Wiens I had for a short period of time.

----------


## Jeff Mando

Note to self:  If I'm ever in the market for a high-end mandolin, hopefully I can keep the process down to asking a few select technical questions -- nut width, radius, fret size, materials, year -- and then decide based on playing it and how it sounds to my ears.  I don't think any of us would come out looking all that healthy after having laid bare the decision process and the personal emotions that get stirred up.  I don't need an audience for that.  Well, maybe just my dog............... :Cool:

----------


## greg_tsam

Hilarious thread if you consider the mass of personalities that make the MC so much fun while also trying at times. I know this thread started with D asking for opinions. That'll teach him.

----------

Demetrius, 

UlsterMando

----------


## darylcrisp

give us a full tune Dem so we can hear it good. it sure sounds like it wants to bust loose and take off, sounds like it has your touch also.

yes, remove the pickguard.

d

----------

Demetrius, 

The Musician's Wife

----------


## jaycat



----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Cool tune, and great band he had...

----------


## The Musician's Wife

A video clip of Dem serenading on our deck...with crickets in the background...

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...h-the-crickets

----------

Austin Bob, 

darylcrisp, 

Demetrius, 

Russ Donahue

----------


## Relio

> A video clip of Dem serenading on our deck...with crickets in the background...
> 
> http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...h-the-crickets


Based on the soft, slow style of music he plays, I understand why he's drawn towards more sustain and Engelmann tops. I'd love to hear some hard driving 'grass... whip that mule!

----------

Demetrius

----------


## DataNick

> The Gil sold..... :~/


Whole bunch of Gils out there...just sayin'...YMMV

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Mandobar

> Nothing... Really? Ok... I made money on my last mando sale... I wonder what I'm doing wrong....


Then make sure you declare the income.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Russ Donahue

Nice...

----------

Demetrius

----------


## darylcrisp

> A video clip of Dem serenading on our deck...with crickets in the background...
> 
> http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...h-the-crickets


very pleasant, love this type of mando music
oops, did I hear first scratch!
now you got to sell it to me at a discount

d

----------

Demetrius

----------


## 9lbShellhamer

It really sounds like a strong and responsive mandolin. What a combination of beauty and power.

----------

Demetrius, 

UlsterMando

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Again with the bathroom acoustics...

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...h-his-pants-up

----------


## sgarrity

> A video clip of Dem serenading on our deck...with crickets in the background...
> 
> http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...h-the-crickets


That was beautiful!

----------


## Steve-o

> That was beautiful!


Agreed.  I think you need to invite all of us from this thread to your house party this weekend!

----------

The Musician's Wife

----------


## The Musician's Wife

> Agreed.  I think you need to invite all of us from this thread to your house party this weekend!


Okay, hmm...tell you what. If you promise to bring a mando (and don't mind possiby ending up on my blog!) consider yourselves invited :-)

----------

Steve-o

----------


## Austin Bob

> A video clip of Dem serenading on our deck...with crickets in the background...
> 
> http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...h-the-crickets


Nice, what is the name of that tune?

----------


## Demetrius

The name of the instrumental is "citrus afternoon"
Thanks for listening!

Dem

----------


## The Musician's Wife

For Pete's sake, here we go again...

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/home/waitwhat

----------


## barry

> For Pete's sake, here we go again...
> 
> http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/home/waitwhat




I see where this is heading.  I noticed the Nugget A-style in the classifieds.  Based on the description, I say it would be an ideal fit for Demetrius's playing style.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

And it's just two hrs away!!!

----------

barry

----------


## barry

> And it's just two hrs away!!!


I thought about you the moment I saw the listing.

----------


## Relio

How about taking the funds you'd use to buy an a-style and getting lessons for a couple years from a top level professional. I've been considering doing this lately, it'd have to be over Skype.

----------

sblock

----------


## Canoedad

> For Pete's sake, here we go again...
> 
> http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/home/waitwhat


Ummm, a message is being sent here, and it's not about mandolins per se.

----------

Demetrius, 

The Musician's Wife

----------


## barry

> Ummm, a message is being sent here, and it's not about mandolins per se.


It's ALWAYS about mandolins.   :Wink:

----------


## Demetrius

And no she's not crying out for help... Lol

----------


## JeffD

Hilarious

----------

Demetrius

----------


## sgarrity

It's funny because we've all been there!!!

----------

Demetrius

----------


## JeffD

> It's funny because we've all been there!!!


Yes.

I worked with a fellow who bought and sold a lot of guitars. (Guitars, radio equipment, fishing and hunting gear). He would buy good good stuff, new. Somewhere down the line, almost like clockwork, he would be selling the guitar or whatever he had bought at a deep discount so it would sell quickly. We speculated that he had neglected to tell his wife, much less discuss it with her and just had no impulse control, and when she finds them he sells them. But that was Friday afternoon talk, though likely something close to that was happening.

I remember asking him to buy a mandolin, hoping to fuel the secondary market and get in on a great deal.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## TEvans

A5's for life. Get the nugget!!!

----------

Demetrius

----------


## 9lbShellhamer

That Nugget is gorgeous. I love everything about it.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Billy Packard

I remember a story here on the Cafe about a guy who was terminally ill.  He asked his best friend to manage the sale of his guitars and mandolins because he had told his wife the instruments were all very cheap when he bought them...and they weren't!
Billy

----------

Demetrius, 

The Musician's Wife

----------


## Benski

I think ol' Dem better be careful while he's downstairs on his computer shopping for an A-model that she isn't upstairs on her iPad shopping for a baseball bat.

 :Mandosmiley: 



Ellis F5

----------

The Musician's Wife

----------


## sblock

> ... We speculated that he had neglected to tell his wife, much less discuss it with her and just had no impulse control, and when she finds them he sells them. But that was Friday afternoon talk, though likely something close to that was happening...


Yes, the two key words here, which had heretofore been missing from this thread, are "_impulse control_."  Impulse control indeed. The recent purchase of an expensive Wiens F5 does not seem to have suppressed Demetrius' case of MAS very much, based on the available evidence.  Wow, he has it real bad!  And a bunch of you seem to be egging him on here, probably for your own personal reasons, but not necessarily out of serious concern for his financial, musical, or marital well-being.  I suspect you just want him to act out your fantasies.  Alcoholics have "co-alcoholics" who indulge their addictions and give them implicit permission.  I think we've discovered a new category of enabler here:  the *co-MAS* fancier!  They're coming out of the woodwork.

So yeah.  Grab that Nugget A model while it's hot. And when you have it, buy a Gilchrist F5, to make up for the one you lost/returned in haste.  And save up for a 1922-24 Gibson Loar-signed F5, without which your life will never be complete.  And don't forget to make room for a mandola, octave mandolin, and mandocello in the collection.  

Or, you could take the suggestion from earlier in the thread and spend some money on mandolin lessons with a top pro. Hmm...

----------

Billy Packard, 

DataNick, 

Demetrius, 

f5joe, 

houseworker, 

Nick Gellie, 

The Musician's Wife

----------


## Demetrius

Sblock I'm not gonna lie, that was brilliant...
Credit is given where credit is due.

----------

sblock

----------


## The Musician's Wife

> Yes, the two key words here, which had heretofore been missing from this thread, are "_impulse control_."  Impulse control indeed. The recent purchase of an expensive Wiens F5 does not seem to have suppressed Demetrius' case of MAS very much, based on the available evidence.  Wow, he has it real bad!  And a bunch of you seem to be egging him on here, probably for your own personal reasons, but not necessarily out of serious concern for his financial, musical, or marital well-being.  I suspect you just want him to act out your fantasies.  Alcoholics have "co-alcoholics" who indulge their addictions and give them implicit permission.  I think we've discovered a new category of enabler here:  the *co-MAS* fancier!  They're coming out of the woodwork.
> 
> So yeah.  Grab that Nugget A model while it's hot. And when you have it, buy a Gilchrist F5, to make up for the one you lost/returned in haste.  And save up for a 1922-24 Gibson Loar-signed F5, without which your life will never be complete.  And don't forget to make room for a mandola, octave mandolin, and mandocello in the collection.  
> 
> Or, you could take the suggestion from earlier in the thread and spend some money on mandolin lessons with a top pro. Hmm...


Sblock... your comments make me wonder if there should be MAS sponsors, a la AA ones.

Not a bad idea, all things considered...  :Smile:

----------

sblock

----------


## barry

There is a cure.  I'm actually on a five step program.  I quit buying mandolins and started buying acoustic guitars.  Then I moved on to electric guitars.  That was followed by a year's worth of amplifier purchases.  I figure another couple of years of buying effects pedals, and I'll be totally clean.

----------

Billy Packard, 

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Yeh last year was effects pedals for me... Have you tried the Liquid ambient by the company Flux? It is delicious....

----------


## Relio

> There is a cure.  I'm actually on a five step program.  I quit buying mandolins and started buying acoustic guitars.  Then I moved on to electric guitars.  That was followed by a year's worth of amplifier purchases.  I figure another couple of years of buying effects pedals, and I'll be totally clean.





> Yeh last year was effects pedals for me... Have you tried the Liquid ambient by the company Flux? It is delicious....


I think Barry makes a really good point. I've gone through a few stages of obsessive (and expensive) buying binges. However, once my focus moves to the next type of purchase my obsession over the previous material item will fade. Maybe you need to look into buying something else until your mando craze mellows out.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## DataNick

I still say this is an elaborate social science experiment...

----------


## Demetrius

Id love a 50's strat...

----------


## catmandu2

Avoid developing an appetite for vintage synths, or vintage electronic gear in general...

Just sayin..

----------


## darylcrisp

just passing thru, taking a moments break, hummm, whats this, you never ever see these for sale.............

englemann, radius FB, built by Voight................... I've saw one for sale and it lasted a few hours, but no worries as you are looking for an A :Cool: 


http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/101316#101316

----------


## 9lbShellhamer

Think about it like this...

People say the mandolin market is soft right now... Used mandolins are cheaper than ever. In the investment world we all know you should buy low, sell high. 

There is loads of synergy here. If we just gave in to MAS, not only would the market become a sellers market as scarcity was created in the used market, but our mandolins will get hotter the more we buy. It's a beautiful thing here. Buy low. Buy buy buy. It's simple. Just create a bubble.

Who's ordering that nugget? It's the gift that keeps on giving. Do it. You know you want to. Doooo it.  :Wink:

----------

darylcrisp, 

DataNick, 

Josh Levine

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Exhibit A why a musician's wife, girlfriend, etc. can get a tad (albeit irrationally) jealous of the musician's leading instrument...

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...gust-14th-2016

Hope you all are fitting in some quality Sunday nap time snuggles of your own...

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Billy Packard

Bedtime!

----------

Demetrius, 

The Musician's Wife

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> Exhibit A why a musician's wife, girlfriend, etc. can get a tad (albeit irrationally) jealous of the musician's leading instrument...
> 
> http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...gust-14th-2016
> 
> Hope you all are fitting in some quality Sunday nap time snuggles of your own...


I'd guess (hope) that is a 'posed' photo of your hubby napping with his new partner. If not...if he really nods off like that, the scream you hear when he wakes up will most likely be due to his discovering his baby on the floor with a broken headstock...or neck...or worse.

----------

The Musician's Wife

----------


## Demetrius

I found out she took this pic when I decided to visit the thread...
Im closing the blinds next time I go to the bathroom

----------

FLATROCK HILL

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

The 'Thanks' I gave you was for closing the blinds. :Wink:

----------


## The Musician's Wife

To follow up musician snuggle time, it went a step further with some musician dirty talk.

And suddenly we go from G to PG-13... Look out, folks!

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...lk-dirty-to-me

----------


## The Musician's Wife

> Bedtime!


What a pretty mandolin...I tend to enjoy the look and sound of an oval hole over the f holes.

Geez. More dirty talk, it sounds like.

----------


## sgarrity

DUDE!?!  :Disbelief:   :Confused:   :Grin:

----------


## Josh Levine

:Popcorn:

----------


## darylcrisp

just getting ready to say, 

"Dem, this thread is dying, we need some action"......................

----------


## almeriastrings

Nice Wiens just appeared in the classifieds...

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/101424#101424

 :Whistling:

----------

houseworker

----------


## Denman John

This thread has the potential to hit 50 pages ...  :Popcorn:

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> Nice Wiens just appeared in the classifieds...
> 
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/101424#101424


I wonder why the owner is selling after less than two weeks? There must be something seriously wrong with it. I think I will pass. But I am sure at that price (FIRM no less!) it won't last long.  :Wink:

----------

houseworker

----------


## Bertram Henze

> ...selling after less than two weeks? There must be something seriously wrong with it.


...or with the seller, or with his budget.

----------

houseworker

----------


## Bob Clark

I think this whole episode has gone just a little too far.  

Again, a lot of good advice has been posted in this thread.  It wouldn't be a bad idea to reconsider some of it that has not been followed to date.

----------

sblock

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> ...or with the seller


The thought never occurred to me.

----------


## KMaynard

I've been a skeptic of Dem's reasoning and search from the beginning and really thought this was some sort of social media experiment. However, watching some of the videos and listening to Dem's style, I knew he was making a mistake buying a mandolin that is cloning the "loar" tone. This is traditionally a bluegrasser's instrument. I think he needs and wants a mandolin with a more modern tone and lots of sustain. Just the opposite of what he has in the Wiens, or any other gibson clone, which should be dry with fast decaying notes and tonally mid-range centric. 

My advice is to concentrate on mandolins that have an Engelmann or Italian spruce top. If you can't find a Gilchrist with Engelmann, then look at a nice Collings MF5V with hard maple back and Engelmann/Italian spruce top. These, in my opinion, would be perfect for your style.

----------

almeriastrings, 

Benski, 

ccravens, 

DataNick

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> I've been a skeptic about Dem's reasoning and search from the beginning and thought this was some sort of social media experiment.


I think 'experiment' is giving too much credit. It seems clear enough to me that Demetrius likes the attention he is getting from this thread more than he likes playing any mandolin. The only way to keep this thread (and the utterly redundant blog) going is to keep buying high end mandolins after pretending to consult with cafe members and then change his mind minutes after declaring the most recent purchase 'a keeper.' He has exactly zero credibility left, but people will ignore that and continue to make suggestions.

----------

f5joe, 

houseworker

----------


## barry

I agree.  I knew the Weins wasn't a good fit from the start.  Demetrius is making a mistake in his evsluation process.  I know, because I've done it myself.  Often times, an instrument "tests" well, but the test criteria that one uses are not relevant to their natural playing style.

Everyone likes to pick up a mandolin and go Thunk, Thunk.....beat it down low, then see how much gas it has up high.....Beat it.  Tickle it.  Beat it some more.....
But a good bit of that is not applicable to real-world playing.  The idea is to find a companion, not merely an instrument that "shows well".

----------

almeriastrings, 

DataNick

----------


## Nick Gellie

Well said KMaynard.  I could not agree with you more.  Demetrius could even go with a Collings MT2V with an Englemann Spruce top and a hard maple back.  I have been trying to suggest to him that there are alternatives to all the Gibson Loar copies.  They are great mandolins but as you say they may not suit his style.

My advice Demetrius is to go down to Carter Vintage for a weekend in Nashville and have a holiday with your wife and get away from the computer, Ipad, or Iphone and play the hell out of every mandolin there until you find the one with the right tone, touch, playability, and lastly but not least looks.  Get this MAS out of your system.  No mandolin is ever going to be perfect.  

One thing I can say when you get beyond your current craze, you will feel relieved when you are no longing searching for a mandolin and you are content with what you have.  I remember seeing you had a Collings MT2 a year ago.  Maybe you should have stuck with it and worked the tone you wanted out of it.  If Adam Steffey, Mike Marshall, Matt Flinner and a host of others can do it, we can all do it.  That is what I have learnt.  Work with what you have got.  You will surprise yourself.

O what the heck you could even try one of these beautiful mandolins:


https://vimeo.com/171202098

----------

almeriastrings, 

Clement Barrera-Ng, 

DataNick

----------


## red7flag

Two days at Carter's and I came home with a Girouard Mandola.  This after just commissioning a Nyberg, you guessed it, mandola.  What a great experience.  I am not sure if I could afford too many more visits to Carter's however.  Now back to this thread, the MC Reality Show.  I know from the experience of the last week that I can only go a few days of serious looking without getting hooked.  Also, for me, the buying experience, cries for an end, unlike this thread.  I want closure.  And usually the choices are after a short time pretty narrow.  Once in a while a new thought comes to mind, but after playing mandolin family for twenty years and being a regular cafe participant for about the same length of time, not many new ideas surprise me (Brentrup V8 and Sorensen VX aside).  Guess I'm not much for drama either.  Oh well, time to play the Girouard and put this thread to bed.

----------

houseworker

----------


## Benski

To riff on Hendrex:
"...and the wind cries...Kardashian."

----------


## JeffD

> The idea is to find a companion, not merely an instrument that "shows well".


This is gigantic. Well said.

----------

almeriastrings, 

DataNick

----------


## Mark Seale

Maybe it's time to look for a Monteleone Style B.  Listen to some of Paul Glasse's recordings, that mandolin has as musical a voice as any I've heard.

----------


## William Smith

Dem just needs to find the "ONE", nothing wrong with searching and trying a bunch to find one that speaks to him. When he finds it there should be no doubt no regrets just happy bliss, For some of us its an obsession, I found my ONE but hey always lookin, When I should be playing....Happy Hunting

----------


## Relio

> Dem just needs to find the "ONE", nothing wrong with searching and trying a bunch to find one that speaks to him. When he finds it there should be no doubt no regrets just happy bliss, For some of us its an obsession, I found my ONE but hey always lookin, When I should be playing....Happy Hunting


People should also keep in mind that many factors affect the sound of a mandolin (e.g. strings, pick, weather, etc.). A mando might sound amazing one day, and in a different environment sound lacking. What I'm trying to say is, no mandolin will sound "perfect" all of the time. The three factors I look at when trying mandolins are feel in my hands/playability, volume, and tone. I've played a good number that have all three.

----------


## Mark Wilson

Maybe once you've dated a supermodel, the prettiest girl in town is not enough.

Cleanse your palate.  Play a $50 mandolin without a setup for 30 days and try the Wiens again  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Jeff Mando

Long thread here, but starting to feel like a "victim" of a con game.  Sure, I've been entertained.  But, like our favorite television characters, we have an emotional investment in hoping our protagonist finds what he is looking for.  Turns out, he doesn't even know, himself!

----------

DataNick, 

Franc Homier Lieu

----------


## allenhopkins

*Twenty-six* pages!!??

Please refer to the Department of Redundancy Department.

----------

sblock

----------


## Eric C.

Hopefully the well-known shops with high end mandolin's don't catch drift of this rather....strange catch and release thing. I'd be hesitant to sell to someone like this.

----------


## Mandobar

> Hopefully the well-known shops with high end mandolin's don't catch drift of this rather....strange catch and release thing. I'd be hesitant to sell to someone like this.


Too late.  They have ALL seen it.

----------


## barry

I really see nothing wrong with Demetrius.  He is just doing what many of us have done.  The only difference is he went public with the process on the forum.

There are a great deal of (non-dealer) individuals who frequently sell fine instruments in the classified section of this website.  Those guys are no different than Demetrius, or me.......or possibly you.  

They just don't have wives who find the sport interesting enough to blog about.

----------

Austin Bob, 

darylcrisp, 

DataNick, 

sgarrity, 

Steve-o

----------


## houseworker

> They just don't have wives who find the sport interesting enough to blog about.


I'm not convinced Demetrius does either.  There's an unpleasant whiff of testosterone coming off that blog.

The real Katherine Becrelis blogs here: http://thehousegodbuilt.weebly.com/

----------


## Josh Levine

Businesses are open to make money. If he wants to pay retail for their instruments and then sell them for less money on the secondary market, I am sure they would love his repeat business.

----------


## Mandobar

Credibility among buyers and sellers is important, especially dealing in high end instruments.  Many instruments change hands very quietly, with few people knowing their availability.  If your credibility as a buyer is suspect, especially if you waffle with making decisions over transactions, you become persona non-grata.  Build a reputation as some who cannot consummate a sale and doors close.  You can pooh pooh this all you want, but the community is very small, and gets even smaller in the upper pricing echelon.

Blogging and threads like this are entertaining, but there is a downside too.

----------

Bob Clark, 

f5joe, 

Jill McAuley

----------


## Mandobar

> Businesses are open to make money. If he wants to pay retail for their instruments and then sell them for less money on the secondary market, I am sure they would love his repeat business.


You'd be surprised.  It's not worth the hassle.  Most of the high end stuff is consigned, and stores are very careful about shipping out these instruments.  Many, including Gryphon no longer ship consigned instruments.  If you want to buy it, you go in person or send someone to buy it for you.

----------


## Josh Levine

Maybe I'm wrong, but since this thread started he's at 50% keeping the high dollar instruments. Those are great odds when you factor in the fact the he pays shipping and the item is insured. They also already have the money and can refund accordingly if there is any funny business. Seems like a great customer to me, especially considering that if you treat him well he could be a repeat customer.

----------


## Jeff Mando

> Maybe I'm wrong, but since this thread started he's at 50% keeping the high dollar instruments. Those are great odds when you factor in the fact the he pays shipping and the item is insured.


My memory may be wrong, but a Givens was bought and returned to Elderly.  A Gilchrist was bought and returned to Gryphon.  The Wiens was bought and is now up for sale a week or so later......that's 0 for 3 in my book, not 50% ???

People keep mentioning the instruments are insured like there is no risk involved......ANYTIME an instrument is put in the hands of a non-player there is risk, let alone put into a box and sent coast to coast!  Yes, the VALUE can be insured.  The instrument cannot -- by that I mean, if the instrument gets damaged, it is still damaged, regardless of insurance.........I say that speaking to a forum of mandolin lovers!

----------


## Josh Levine

Dude the Wiens is for sale on the secondary market because he bought it. I guarantee you the store that sold the Wiens could care less now that it is out of their inventory. I forgot about the Givens. He is clearly serious about buying high dollar items and does not have the reputation of serial returning. If he wanted something I was selling, I would gladly sell to him and I'd be polite about it.

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## CES

I've never bought an instrument anywhere close to this price range, and if I did I'd want to make sure I was getting what I really wanted. I've bought several instruments online, but all for < 1600 dollars. Though I've been disappointed in at least two of them  (tone on one, playability on the other), I've not returned any of them, because they all arrived in the condition advertised. I gave the one that disappointed me in tone to my brother, who needed an A/E mando for his praise band (and runs it through a preamp into a board that meets his requirements well), because I didn't want to go through the hassle of selling it (and it was only $350, but he couldn't afford it at the time, so it genuinely helped out him and his ministry). The other I just fixed the set up issue. Honestly, it was cheaper to do that than it would have been to pay the shipping both ways, and it plays great now.

I have a personal rule that I won't buy anything over 2000 dollars without playing it first. I may someday break that rule for something rare or something very difficult to find, but probably not. Nashville is only a 6 hour drive away, and my wife enjoys that town as well, so...I agree with all of those suggesting the OP take a trip to Nashville or Elderly and refuse to buy unless you find one you truly can't put down.

----------


## Relio

> I've never bought an instrument anywhere close to this price range, and if I did I'd want to make sure I was getting what I really wanted. I've bought several instruments online, but all for < 1600 dollars. Though I've been disappointed in at least two of them  (tone on one, playability on the other), I've not returned any of them, because they all arrived in the condition advertised. I gave the one that disappointed me in tone to my brother, who needed an A/E mando for his praise band (and runs it through a preamp into a board that meets his requirements well), because I didn't want to go through the hassle of selling it (and it was only $350, but he couldn't afford it at the time, so it genuinely helped out him and his ministry). The other I just fixed the set up issue. Honestly, it was cheaper to do that than it would have been to pay the shipping both ways, and it plays great now.
> 
> I have a personal rule that I won't buy anything over 2000 dollars without playing it first. I may someday break that rule for something rare or something very difficult to find, but probably not. Nashville is only a 6 hour drive away, and my wife enjoys that town as well, so...I agree with all of those suggesting the OP take a trip to Nashville or Elderly and refuse to buy unless you find one you truly can't put down.


What happens when the instrument you are interested in is located in Texas? There are mandolins up for sale in this price range constantly in the classifieds, and they are located all over the country. I'd say it's very common for someone to buy a $10,000 mandolin without playing it first. Unless you live close to Nashville, you're going to have a hard time finding a big grouping of these mandolins for sale in one location.

----------


## Sheryl McDonald

> Dem just needs to find the "ONE", nothing wrong with searching and trying a bunch to find one that speaks to him. When he finds it there should be no doubt no regrets just happy bliss, For some of us its an obsession, I found my ONE but hey always lookin, When I should be playing....Happy Hunting


He just needs to find "the one" without having to buy them all to try them out.

----------


## Jeff Mando

> He is clearly serious about buying high dollar items and does not have the reputation of serial returning.


I agree with the first part and am not sure how we should define the second part.  I say this having worked retail for a vintage guitar shop.  Part of it is that wealthy customers are given "extra" leeway because the store is hoping for a big sale.  Sometimes it is something small like an extra day to decide or an extra adjustment or two, and it is unwritten, but the customer knows they have that power.  Sometimes, the extra leeway is carried too far.  Usually business is conducted in a gentlemanly manner resulting in a successful sale and it never comes up.  I think this discussion has been enlightening for many of us, not only because of the value of the instruments involved, but also that Demetrius is so open about sharing his viewpoint/feelings -- whether or not we happen to agree with him.

----------


## darylcrisp

[QUOTE=Jeff Mando;1514089]I agree with the first part and am not sure how we should define the second part.  I say this having worked retail for a vintage guitar shop.  Part of it is that wealthy customers are given "extra" leeway because the store is hoping for a big sale.  Sometimes it is something small like an extra day to decide or an extra adjustment or two, and it is unwritten, but the customer knows they have that power.  Sometimes, the extra leeway is carried too far.  Usually business is conducted in a gentlemanly manner resulting in a successful sale and it never comes up. * I think this discussion has been enlightening for many of us, not only because of the value of the instruments involved, but also that Demetrius is so open about sharing his viewpoint/feelings -- whether or not we happen to agree with him.[/QUOTE*]

+1
its his $ and time. 
I'm enjoying the thread.

So my thought at this point, Dem, take the Wiens, take a few days, and head to nashvegas. Carters might do a decent swap for that V8. Or, you might find another one that appeals better. Take a few days there and play them out. 

d

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> So my thought at this point, Dem, take the Wiens, take a few days, and head to nashvegas.


It is just adorable that at this point any of you think he is actually going to listen to your advice. 

Just adorable.

----------

John Eischen

----------


## dhergert

I'm wondering if Dem will go through this same process as he continues acquiring each of the other required 5 to 10 mandolins that are necessary to satisfy his MAS...  If so, this thread is going to be about 250 pages.

My personal thought is that life is too short -- it's time to settle down and make music.   But for some people the chase is more fun than the capture.  To each their own, as long as The Musician's Wife is also enjoying the ride.

-- Don

----------


## darylcrisp

> It is just adorable that at this point any of you think he is actually going to listen to your advice. 
> 
> Just adorable.


I say, throw in a lunch at Jacks BBQ on broadstreet, an ice cream cone, and we go one step further to lovely.

just lovely. 
take in a show at the Ryman, and we go to having a grand time.
just grand.
I say go for grand. 
trip, mandos, Jacks BBQ, ice cream, show at the Ryman.



this Franc, is adorable:

----------

Russ Donahue

----------


## sblock

I find myself repeating the observation that this is the triumph of money over common sense.  

By now, the financial losses associated with turning over three high-end mandolins (Givens, Gilchrist, Wiens) in rapid succession  --including shipping, insurance, loss at resale -- would easily have paid for that exploratory trip to Nashville that so many of us recommended.

----------

houseworker

----------


## Nick Gellie

[QUOTE=darylcrisp;1514092]


> I agree with the first part and am not sure how we should define the second part.  I say this having worked retail for a vintage guitar shop.  Part of it is that wealthy customers are given "extra" leeway because the store is hoping for a big sale.  Sometimes it is something small like an extra day to decide or an extra adjustment or two, and it is unwritten, but the customer knows they have that power.  Sometimes, the extra leeway is carried too far.  Usually business is conducted in a gentlemanly manner resulting in a successful sale and it never comes up. * I think this discussion has been enlightening for many of us, not only because of the value of the instruments involved, but also that Demetrius is so open about sharing his viewpoint/feelings -- whether or not we happen to agree with him.[/QUOTE*]
> 
> +1
> its his $ and time. 
> I'm enjoying the thread.
> 
> So my thought at this point, Dem, take the Wiens, take a few days, and head to nashvegas. Carters might do a decent swap for that V8. Or, you might find another one that appeals better. Take a few days there and play them out. 
> 
> d


I am not sure that Demetrius has taken heed of the good advice given here on the cafe.  Daryl is reiterating what I suggested a few posts ago.  I go back to the mandolin tasting meet in Massachusetts some time back.  Based on that video I could not find much difference in tone among the Dudenbostels, Gilchrists, etc.  Basically there were pretty much all F5s with an Adi top probably graduated to the same specs with some tweaks here and there.  The Wiens he has at the moment has the same genetics and tone as the ones I have mentioned.  What it comes down to is look and feel of the instrument when you play it.  How your left hands feels around the neck is pretty important, the type of frets used and how well the fretboard is put together, all makes a huge difference to a mandolin.  Whether you like it or not Collings have pretty much nailed it when it comes to putting this altogether.  Some Collings may sound a bit bright but guess what they sound great miked up and they cut through the mix.

Basically we can go on advising Demetrius about what to look for and not see much progress.  Until he starts posting some decent feedback on what makes him tic as a musician and how he intends to use a mandolin and responding in detail to some of the very good posts and advice on here we will be just blowing in the wind.  Like Bob Dylan wrote in his refrain  ' the answer my friend is blowing in the wind'.

----------


## Demetrius

I laugh when people state their opinions and assumptions of me as if they are facts. I think it's entertaining that the ones who bad mouth me the most, are also the ones who post the most. You will literally never get under my skin... Lol

Like someone on here said before, I'm not doing anything different than most of the people on here. Only difference is my wife and I chose to make it public. If you don't like it, then it's simple: don't read it..

So, lighten up lads, no need to get all worked up. Besides it's my time and money not yours..

P.S. Only thing that was out of line, and I will say this to the individual who said that there is a whiff of testosterone on my wife's blog... Really? You're gonna go there, dude? Come on man... Keep this nice, especially to the ladies. That's being a gentleman.

----------

Billy Packard, 

ccravens, 

darylcrisp, 

George R. Lane, 

JKA, 

Russ Donahue, 

sgarrity, 

Steve-o, 

UlsterMando

----------


## CES

But I do live close-ish to Nashville...that's why I said it's only a 6 hour drive. And also why I threw Elderly in there; isn't Dem from Michigan?

Also, if the instrument is in Texas, I have a brother in Fort Worth, which puts Austin in striking distance. 

Spending even more than 3 or 4 grand on a hobby is a big deal for me. I'm admittedly not a pro. Hence the (very personal and certainly not applicable to everyone) rule.

Fwiw (absolutely zilch), I am ambivalent regarding Dem's search. It's his time and dime, and he can do with it as he pleases, accepting whatever consequences (positive or negative) may come. I'm just enjoying watching how worked up some folks are getting over this thread  :Smile:

----------


## William Smith

> I laugh when people state thier opinions and assumptions of me as if they are facts.. I think it's entertaining that the ones who bad mouth me the most are the ones who post the most. You will literally never get under my skin... Lol
> Like someone on here said before, I'm not doing anything different than most of the people on here. Only difference is my wife and I chose to make it public. if you don't like it then it's simple, don't read it..
> So Lighten up lads, no need to get all worked up. Besides it's my time and money not yours..
> 
> P.S. Only thing that was out of line, and I will say this to the individual who implied a whiff of testosterone on my wife's blog? Really? You're gonna go there dude? Come one man... Keep this nice especially to the ladies. That's being a gentle-man



Well Said. Happy Hunting,Best O' Luck on finding YOUR treasure :Smile:

----------

Demetrius, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> P.S. Only thing that was out of line, and I will say this to the individual who said that there is a whiff of testosterone on my wife's blog... Really? You're gonna go there, dude? Come on man... Keep this nice, especially to the ladies. That's being a gentleman.


I think you misunderstand houseworker's point.

----------


## Demetrius

Anyhow... Back to mandolins!
 :Smile:

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## Stevo75

> I think you misunderstand houseworker's point.


Yeah, I think he was saying that you (Demetrius) are the one behind your wife's blog. That it's not really her but you coordinating it somehow.

But you're right, leave that kind of thing out of this thread.

----------


## Demetrius

None the less that was a ridiculous statement, and accusation. And that's still not offensive to my wife how?
No Nevermind.. Seriously back to mandolins...

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

Indeed, back to mandolins.

In this thread

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...57#post1507157

you wrote:

"Hi, I'm interested in some feedback from some Wiens mandolin owners. 
I can't seem to find but a couple videos on YouTube, I'd also love to hear from
some owners that have really broken them in and explain how it withstood
the test of time. He really does do beautiful work, I really hope some owners 
chime in here."

So I am wondering, now that you are a Wiens owner (and also looking to sell a Wiens), are you going to post a full length video of yourself putting the Wiens through its paces?

----------


## mtucker

This is all about what it was intended to be....FUN!   Seriously, this is a pile of wood and glue, we're not solving world peace here!

----------

sgarrity, 

UlsterMando

----------


## barry

> This is all about what it was intended to be....FUN!   Seriously, this is a pile of wood and glue, we're not solving world peace here!



.....and the Mona Lisa is just some dried paint on a board.

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> This is all about what it was intended to be....FUN!


If fun involves having $10,000 tied up in something you don't even like that much, then I must be having tonnes of fun with my new mini-van. :Wink:

----------


## Br1ck

> .....and the Mona Lisa is just some dried paint on a board.


Regarding the Mona Lisa, I've read many times where people warn that it is a letdown, not very big, etc. It most certainly is not a letdown, but a masterpiece.

Like art, instruments are a subjective evaluation.

How someone else chooses to go about finding the perfect instrument for them is entirely up to them.

My method happens to be, mostly out of my own ignorance, like Silverangel, find Silverangel in classifieds, buy Silverangel, play Silverangel, be happy with Silverangel. YMMV

----------


## Canoedad

> If fun involves having $10,000 tied up in something you don't even like that much, then I must be having tonnes of fun with my new mini-van.


Hey now!  Nothing will get this thread locked down faster than a bout of mini-van shaming.  Mine's got 180,000 on it and I'm already lusting after its replacement.  I think I've got VAS!

----------

lflngpicker

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> Hey now!  Nothing will get this thread locked down faster than a bout of mini-van shaming.  Mine's got 180,000 on it and I'm already lusting after its replacement.  I think I've got VAS!


Don't get me wrong. I would drive a mini-van even if I were single with no kids. We had a 2011 Toyota Sienna that I loved and love even more now. But in our search for 'the one' mini-van that would make us happy forever, we foolishly traded the Sienna for another make and model which, I kid you not, we bought without ever seeing let alone test driving.

----------

Eric C.

----------


## Canoedad

> Don't get me wrong. I would drive a mini-van even if I were single with no kids. We had a 2011 Toyota Sienna that I loved and love even more now. But in our search for 'the one' mini-van that would make us happy forever, we foolishly traded the Sienna for another make and model which, I kid you not, we bought without ever seeing let alone test driving.


Ah, makes perfect sense now.  Ours is a Sienna and its replacement will definitely be another Sienna.   But the new one will have Bluetooth for better mandolin jamming.

----------

lflngpicker

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> Don't get me wrong. I would drive a mini-van even if I were single with no kids. We had a 2011 Toyota Sienna that I loved and love even more now. But in our search for 'the one' mini-van that would make us happy forever, we foolishly traded the Sienna for another make and model which, I kid you not, we bought without ever seeing let alone test driving.


A valuable lesson there! Next time, do the sensible thing. 
Log onto the Mini-Van Cafe. 
Ask for lots of advice. 
Ignore most of it.  
Buy mini-van.
Sell mini-van. 
Repeat.

----------

almeriastrings, 

Franc Homier Lieu, 

lflngpicker, 

Relio

----------


## Relio

> A valuable lesson there! Next time, do the sensible thing. 
> Log onto the Mini-Van Cafe. 
> Ask for lots of advice. 
> Ignore most of it.  
> Buy mini-van.
> Sell mini-van. 
> Repeat.


LOL - best post on thread, thread can now be closed!

----------

FLATROCK HILL

----------


## dhergert

Dem, I'm one of those people who love to look at the back of the book to see how it's going to end, or to hear or read about spoilers for the big movies, to see what to expect.  I think it just gives me more patience to endure through the rest of the story...

Soooo, I keep thinking that after all of your checking of modern mandolins, you're going to end up going to Carter's or Gruhn's and come out with a '23 or '24 signed LLoar F5.   Is that within the scope of your current search?

-- Don

----------


## JKA

Dem, I think it's cool that you have made your quest so public. it's a great thread and I'm enjoying it immensely.
I would suggest not being too hasty in getting rid of your current mandolin though as I suspect the tone you're after is in there...you just have to try and coax it out. 

I'm a great believer that tone is something the player produces (junk instruments being the exception) 

I'm sure you've seen a few players all play the same mandolin (or guitars etc) and no doubt you've noticed a different tone each time. No one can make my guitars or mandolins sound the same as when I play them (for better or worse) and that really is down to my playing style and what I can coax out of the instruments 

Personally I think your mandolin sounds stunning and you're not going to get anything better...just different

----------

Demetrius, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Demetrius

VAS! I love it!!! I don't have one but Vans Rock...You can fit a whole bunch of instruments in them, what's not to love?

----------


## JeffD

This has been a fun journey for me. 

I think, ultimately, Dem has had a harder time of it because of all of our advice. I can't help feeling that by bringing in all of us he has made the decision harder to make, and the ins and outs of it loom larger. Its like those small camping tents that take five minutes to put up, ten minutes if you have help.

One side effect of this thread is that I really am enjoying the mandolins I have. What I mean is that it is nice to be settled down and liking what I have. I keep  MAS at bay (never in remission) by enjoying the potatoes out of what I do have, and by realizing that getting what I would really really want is not realistic. 

Being able to nail some riff tonefully with authority and without hesitation, and the promise that other riffs will come if I work on them in a similar fashion, well that takes away any burning about not having exactly the mandolin that I want. I know, its apples and staple guns, but life and health are short.

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## Demetrius

JKA, well said my man... Trust me the Wiens is extraordinary in every sense...It's everything most people would look for in a killer mandolin. I only had it on trial for 24 hrs, and I wanted to perform with it, record with it and so on... The flat board messes with me a bit, and that specific neck profile has proven to aggravate an old hand injury. Also I like loads of sustain with the stuff I play. Maybe in time it'll come? Idk, and no one does but it is red spruce so we all know changes will occur. In fact they already have! If it sells it sells, if not? Believe me I won't be upset.. If someone does buy this they will be a very lucky and happy Mando player. But again,  I don't mind if this was to never go anywhere, I've been playing the heck out of it.

----------


## Jeff Mando

The kindest thing I can come up with is that hopefully Dem is able to hear subtleties that mere mortals like myself cannot hear.  And, that is precisely what is expected in that price range, right?  That is what makes people seek out a boutique instrument over a Master Model Gibson, for example.  I get that.

In other words, it's OK to be super, super fussy -- if you can back it up.  Most of us can't, to be honest.  And, I say that thinking I have a pretty good ear.

In most areas of life, we compromise.  There is no other option.  If I tell my boss what I really think of him, I won't have a job any longer.  If I refuse to consider my wife's opinion, life is more difficult.  THE EXCEPTION, might lie in Art and the pursuit of the unknown chord and beauty......

Speaking as a former artist, myself, I quickly understood that you can go crazy chasing dreams that few ever achieve.  Being a musician is a better fit for me. (although quite a demotion!)  :Wink: 

PS.  Don't you think that Loar owners probably sit around and sulk about so and so's Loar having a better mid-range than mine, so and so's Loar has a better "bark", etc.....it never really ends, my friend.  March down to the local soup kitchen and dish out some lunches and make some folks happy, it'll do wonders all around.

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## JeffD

I had a friend who worked for a race car driver. He was a genius mechanic with a real passion for getting every stinking inch of performance out of a car.

His own car was an old beat up Datsun B-210 (remember them? before Nissan.) 

Why? Because he knew exactly what he wanted in a car, exactly exactly. And not being able to get that, he knew he would always be dissatisfied. So, he figured, if I am going to be dissatisfied anyway, just drive something, who cares what, and get onnn with it.

Not that I recommend that approach. Just smiling at the practicality of it.

----------


## JeffD

> it never really ends, my friend.  March down to the local soup kitchen and dish out some lunches and make some folks happy, it'll do wonders all around.


It really does.

----------

Jeff Mando, 

lflngpicker

----------


## Canoedad

> The kindest thing I can come up with is that hopefully Dem is able to hear subtleties that mere mortals like myself cannot hear.  And, that is precisely what is expected in that price range, right?  That is what makes people seek out a boutique instrument over a Master Model Gibson, for example.  I get that.
> 
> In other words, it's OK to be super, super fussy -- if you can back it up.  Most of us can't, to be honest.  And, I say that thinking I have a pretty good ear.
> 
> In most areas of life, we compromise.  There is no other option.


Jeff, If you think Dem is not compromising by settling for a 10-12K mandolin, IMO you're missing it.  Of course he is!  That's why the suggestions pointing toward the 18k Bentrup at Carters go unacknowledged.  :Mandosmiley:

----------

Jeff Mando

----------


## Demetrius

That actual Brentrup was for sale already for muchh less... 
Just knowing that, I can't do it... Nope
Not saying it shouldn't be, just saying it wasn't

----------

Canoedad

----------


## Demetrius

So I'm sitting playing the Wiens and the one thing that comes to mind is... Beat the heck out of it and play some hard driving bluegrass. Only problem is... I just don't play like that. That's actually why I parted with my Gibson distressed master model a while back. It beggs for that type of attack, only I feel this is even more Loar like than the Gibson Dmm. 

   What I've learned in this is, I need to stick with engleman top, radius fingerboard, and lots of sustain with a sissy low action. This Adi top has a lot to give and it ain't gonna happen with the way I play. Its dry, very very very deep woody tone, all the way up the board, extremely even. Open strings sound just like fretted notes. 

    When this sells I'm gonna seek out an engleman, European, or German top...

----------


## Nick Gellie

> So I'm sitting playing the Wiens and the one thing that comes to mind is... Beat the heck out of it and play some hard driving bluegrass. Only problem is... I just don't play like that. That's actually why I parted with my Gibson distressed master model a while back. It beggs for that type of attack, only I feel this is even more Loar like than the Gibson Dmm. 
> 
>    What I've learned in this is, I need to stick with engleman top, radius fingerboard, and lots of sustain with a sissy low action. This Adi top has a lot to give and it ain't gonna happen with the way I play. Its dry, very very very deep woody tone, all the way up the board, extremely even. Open strings sound just like fretted notes. 
> 
>     When this sells I'm gonna seek out an engleman, European, or German top...


You can't go much wrong with this 5 bar Engelmann Spruce top Artist series F5 from Northfield.  It really shines with the softer playing you want from a mandolin.  Just make sure that the neck profile suits you:

----------

Demetrius, 

George R. Lane, 

lflngpicker

----------


## Charles E.

What I've learned in this is, I need to stick with engleman top, radius fingerboard, and lots of sustain with a sissy low action. This Adi top has a lot to give and it ain't gonna happen with the way I play. Its dry, very very very deep woody tone, all the way up the board, extremely even. Open strings sound just like fretted notes. 

    When this sells I'm gonna seek out an engleman, European, or German top...[/QUOTE]

Perhaps this is what you are looking for.............

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/101316#101316

Dan is an excellent player and builder, super clean in both regards.

----------


## barry

> So I'm sitting playing the Wiens and the one thing that comes to mind is... Beat the heck out of it and play some hard driving bluegrass. Only problem is... I just don't play like that. That's actually why I parted with my Gibson distressed master model a while back. It beggs for that type of attack, only I feel this is even more Loar like than the Gibson Dmm. 
> 
>    What I've learned in this is, I need to stick with engleman top, radius fingerboard, and lots of sustain with a sissy low action. This Adi top has a lot to give and it ain't gonna happen with the way I play. Its dry, very very very deep woody tone, all the way up the board, extremely even. Open strings sound just like fretted notes. 
> 
>     When this sells I'm gonna seek out an engleman, European, or German top...






I tend to think that the second mandolin demo'd in this clip is exactly what your after.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Barry I loooove that Gil tone...

----------


## Mark Wilson

> Seriously, this is a pile of wood and glue, we're not solving world peace here!


I dunno.  If everyone had one of these the world might be a lot more peaceful  
http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/101490#101490

I get what D is saying about finding a mandolin that responds best to your style of play. I don't play aggressive and leave some tone on the table with some top mandolins that sound great with another player.

----------

lflngpicker, 

Sheryl McDonald

----------


## lflngpicker

Mark, I will need to sell my mini-van...  :Whistling:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Heres a clip of my bro Alex just noodling on the Wiens...

----------

Billy Packard, 

darylcrisp

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

And you want to sell that.?. :Disbelief:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Bertram Henze

> And you want to sell that.?.


I can't understand it either. Winning involves the ability to detect when you have won.
Excellent playing, by the way.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## William Smith

> And you want to sell that.?.



Nice horn! I'd buy her if my Gil sells. Wiens are one of the best crafted newish mandolins in the old style today. Mandolin sounds like a pretty good one to me anyway. It just needs played and aged a little and here is a chance for someone to get one of these without a horrendous wait, as I've I heard it takes to get a brand new one from this GREAT builder. Check out the Wiens website and one should be astonished at the quality "if your mando crazy like most of us you will not be let down"
   I have no FI in this plug for this, I just really respect the Wiens mandolins, I've owned a bunch of high quality mandolins and these stand out! I've never played one but it might be worth the catch and release program that some of us are guilty of and if Dem. wants to go after something else Kool man just do it but that Wiens sure is sweet. Too bad we can't keep em all on the quest for our precious! :Grin:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Bluegrasser what kind of Gil ya got?  :Smile:

----------


## seg

Haha!! This is great!!

----------


## Bob Clark

> Bluegrasser what kind of Gil ya got?


Do I detect a potential trade in the works?  How about alternating joint custody of both mandolins?

----------


## Jeff Mando

> How about alternating joint custody of both mandolins?


Like the Traveling Pick Sampler!   :Laughing:

----------

Billy Packard

----------


## Demetrius

I don't know... Im not gonna lie, Im starting to second guess the classified ad. This thing is sounding beast like today... Perhaps Im just in a beast like kind of mood.  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Canoedad

> I don't know... Im not gonna lie, Im starting to second guess the classified ad. This thing is sounding beast like today... Perhaps Im just in a beast like kind of mood.


Keep the ad up, but add a three day _recall_ period!

----------


## Demetrius

lol... I would never back out on someone after the fact, that would not be nice.

----------


## Canoedad

> lol... I would never back out on someone after the fact, that would not be nice.


Hey I'm just trying to help the show's ratings  :Wink:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Just posted the video of Alex on the Wiens to my blog...

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...g-on-the-wiens

----------


## Eric C.

Why would we need to go to the blog to watch when it's just a few posts above...

----------


## Demetrius

The question is why not? Perhaps she didn't see it?
Play nice...
Back to mandolins.

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> Why would we need to go to the blog to watch when it's just a few posts above...


Maybe because the blog video has a big 'for sale' sign and a link the the Cafe classified ad.  :Whistling:

----------


## barry

Hmmm......I wish MY brother was into guitars and mandolins.  He just likes tennis and golf.

----------


## Demetrius

Anyways, Back to mandolins.. Lol these guys...
And Barry don't worry he's obsessed with golf...

----------


## sblock

My summary so far is as follows. There seem to be two ways to find just the right mandolin.

EITHER

1)  Keep trying different mandolins until you find the one that you like best.

OR

2)  Keep buying different mandolins until you find the one that you like best.


I think both approaches work, but the OP seems more inclined than some of us towards the second approach.  I can't say if it's more efficient than the first. But without a doubt, it's the more expensive of the two!    :Smile:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> The Youtube video says nothing about being for sale...


The blog did, and it had the link to the cafe ad. 
Just clicked on the link to the blog and got a 404 error. But it had 'for sale' above and a link to the ad below.

----------


## Billy Packard

Remember, 

Demetrius has a home, a family, a business to run and many people who rely on him.  Trips far afield are probably not an option for him anymore that they would be for many of us.  

Jus' sayin'

Billy

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Update: Wiens took on a new characteristic today. I'm hearing a bit more sustain creeping out.
It's also very precise which Im really appreciating... Hmmm idk guys this is a tough one.

----------


## Andrew B. Carlson

Dem, didn't see if anyone asked, but what are the noticeable tonal differences between the Gil and the Wiens?

----------


## William Smith

> Bluegrasser what kind of Gil ya got?


Hey man its an X braced, S-hole, radius, tabaccy 1982, #82138 plenty of pix in the archive, sound/tone is GREAT, volume pretty good but I'm used to/spoiled rotten with my old tone bared BEAST. Playability is sweet after I set her up "mine also came from store with a bad fit original bridge so I worked on her, a little truss rod adjustment, flush bridge instead of gap, some slotting" plays like greased lightning. Finish has ware, varnish sinking in top, like it but bigger neck shape than I'm used to.

----------


## Demetrius

Sounds a lot like the one I had and miss. Despite the set up issues it had a magic...

----------


## Demetrius

Sounds a lot like the one I had and miss. Despite the set up issues it had a magic...

Andrew Im at work but I wil answer that great question afterwards. 

Stand by!
Dem

----------

Andrew B. Carlson

----------


## William Smith

> Sounds a lot like the one I had and miss. Despite the set up issues it had a magic...


Yes these early Gils sure have a voice, must be the woods used or X bracing or varnish or just plain and simple yes MAGIC :Wink:

----------


## Demetrius

Only difference mine was tone bar. Who told you that the top was sinking in your Gil?

----------


## Jim Garber

> JKA, well said my man... Trust me the Wiens is extraordinary in every sense...It's everything most people would look for in a killer mandolin. I only had it on trial for 24 hrs, and I wanted to perform with it, record with it and so on... The flat board messes with me a bit, and that specific neck profile has proven to aggravate an old hand injury. Also I like loads of sustain with the stuff I play. Maybe in time it'll come? Idk, and no one does but it is red spruce so we all know changes will occur. In fact they already have! If it sells it sells, if not? Believe me I won't be upset.. If someone does buy this they will be a very lucky and happy Mando player. But again, I don't mind if this was to never go anywhere, I've been playing the heck out of it.


So, how about contacting Jamie and asking him for any remedies on this particular instrument. As I suggested before: have him make a radiused board or even maybe (if possible) rework the neck profile to your liking. If you love the tone, fix the things you don't like. Is there any reason why you would not consider that?

----------


## Demetrius

Hi Jim, 

     Its definitely a possibility, but Im going to live with it for a while the way it is and see if I can adjust...

----------


## pops1

I have both flat fingerboards and radiused boards, think I used to prefer the radius, but now I think I am back to the flat. It's easy to go between them if you do it at all often, like playing mandolin then guitar. Guitar players have a hard time going to mandolin at first, but once you are used to something going between something else you are used to is a breeze. 

Wish I had a breeze, it's hot here.

----------


## barry

> Only difference mine was tone bar. Who told you that the top was sinking in your Gil?



I think he said the "varnish is sinking into the top".  He was only referring to the aging finish.

----------


## Billy Packard

Barry...I understood what he meant.  Very thin lacquer will do that also.

----------


## TEvans

Demetrius -- I often think of a video of John Reischman talking about his Loar.  (The Fretboard Journal video, I'm sure we've all seen it)  In that video he talks about how different his Loar sounds from other Loars, and how different all the other Loars sound from all the other Loars.  He attributes a good deal of this to each player "playing a tone into" an instrument.  Because he has played that Loar so much, and tried to pull out the tone that he likes to hear so much, that's the tone that comes out of it.

I think there is definitely some truth behind this.  Your unique style of playing - different from any other mandolin player - is going to cause the top and back of that instrument to vibrate and resonate differently (maybe slightly, maybe drastically different) from any other player.  

SO, all this to say, I think that the more you play that Wiens, and the more you seek to pull out the tone that you want to hear, the more that mandolin is going to produce that tone.  Maybe time is what you need!

I agree on the flat board, though.  I certainly have not liked the feeling of flat boards when I've played them.  Radiuses all the way!

----------

Billy Packard, 

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

TEvans, I could couldn't agree with you any more... Ive been playing this Wiens about 8 hrs a day since I got it and Im already starting to hear this happening. in fact in the last couple of days its taken on some dramatic changes. The thing Im starting to realize about this mandolin is the core sound is spectacular. Its not complex, which may or may not come in time. I just dont know, but what I do know is that what is there now is the following.
1. Pure wood tone, very little string sound aside for the slide noise that comes from the exp strings.
2. Solid note, with a rather quick decay. The tapering of sound is pleasant though, not muted and it evenly falls to silence without losing that warm wood tone.
3. Very responsive, and explosive... Recording may be a bit of a challenge. Every single note on this fretboard has that explosive pop but with that thup sound that Ive loved in every Loar Ive ever played.
4. Fit and finish is by far best Ive seen to date. I can't imagine a human doing any better hand work than this.
5. Dave Harvey did the set up on this Wiens and I think from this point on, every instrument I ever get set up on will be done by him definitely.

Thanks, 
Dem

----------

Billy Packard, 

TEvans

----------


## TEvans

Just keep playing the tone you want into it!  It's got all the foundations it needs - great build, great woods. It's only gonna get better with time!

Happy pickin', brother!

----------


## Andrew B. Carlson

I have yet to play a Wiens, but his shop is a days drive from me, and I hope to visit one day. I just love the painful attention to detail to replicate some of Loar's designs. The dovetailed points, the fretboard swell etc. (I know Dude does that too) Being that the F5 mandolin is art in itself, much of my appreciation of it is as a piece of art. And it's playable too!

----------


## William Smith

> I think he said the "varnish is sinking into the top".  He was only referring to the aging finish.


Yes the varnish sinking in the top is what I believe I said. The top on mine did have a bit of a dent in it under each side of the bridge feet so to speak so I refit bridge for a full contact, That corrected the top after a while. I've always done this to my mandolins, I think and I'm pretty sure that doing this will save a top! Really don't know for sure if this makes or takes away anything soundwise to a mandolin, for sure it didn't hurt my Gil but made it better, I'm sure if Dem did this to the Gil he had, it would correct any issues with the denting. The X-bracing on these is so different than tone bar. Fuller more lowish end, pretty fat sounding compared to your traditional Gibson trebly higher mid range, The x gives it a type of Ronnie McCoury sound, I'd bet his Gil is X braced? Listen to his Gil stuff then his Loar stuff.

----------


## Billy Packard

Re bluegrasser78, 

I have a lovely Weber Fern that Bruce re-graduated the top and back plates on and in the process refinished it with super thin lacquer that has since followed the grain perfectly. 

The Gichrist A3 with the varnish finish is identical. They both have that three demential quality but no plate-sink.

Also, the Fern has tone bars with a more focused, even sound while the Gil with X bracing is just like you point out above.  They both have radius fretboards with stainless frets.

Also of note, the Fern is over-sized and has a more expansive projection.  As well as a cedar top with very tiny grain.

Billy

----------


## Demetrius

I decided to stay with the Wiens... It's proving to be something Id be silly to part with...

----------

Billy Packard, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Steve-o, 

UlsterMando

----------


## George R. Lane

Good choice. I hope the two of you will live happily ever after, and your wife also.  :Wink:

----------


## Demetrius



----------

Andrew B. Carlson, 

Billy Packard, 

Russ Donahue

----------


## Demetrius



----------

Andrew B. Carlson, 

Russ Donahue

----------


## Demetrius



----------

Andrew B. Carlson, 

Billy Packard, 

Relio, 

Russ Donahue, 

Steve-o, 

TEvans, 

UlsterMando

----------


## UlsterMando

In the video clips you guys really make the Wiens sound good; I'm not surprised 
that you are thinking of holding on to it. Good for you! I hope you find the inspiration 
in it which you are searching for. 
It's a bonny thing.

I'm also enjoying the videos of your band. Good stuff.

----------

Billy Packard

----------


## kudzugypsy

wow - that Weins has had 4 owners in the last year & half...crazy - i talked to a guy about it when it was in VA (he was 2nd owner i think) - then was in AL for a few months and the new ad had it in MA - he couldnt have owned it long as i was talking to the owner in AL a few months ago. 
sweet looking mando for sure - glad to know you like it.

----------


## Demetrius

Wow interesting.... They must have just looked at it and not played it then, cause I don't believe this had a single sign of play on it... One small mark on the scroll but that was from when it was with Wiens. Anyhow yeh, killer mando. Easily up to par with my Dude and Gibson dmm I had.

----------


## Demetrius

My only reserve is hand pain... Not sure what it is about the neck profile, it's seems normal but for some reason it agrevates this hand injury. I refuse to have the neck reshaped, I've been there done that and it never turns out right.
The Gil I had was the perfect neck profile for my hands.

----------


## mtucker

This vid makes me want one of these laminated A's.

----------


## Demetrius

Is it really laminated? Idk...

----------


## Mandobar

It's a bowlback.  And Carlo could make a KM150 sound like a '24 Loar.

----------


## mtucker

> Is it really laminated? Idk...


I was kind of joking about the back side of it, but it sure sounds good when he takes it to the lower register.

----------


## Mark Seale

> The Gil I had was the perfect neck profile for my hands.


This is one of the areas I think gets missed.  There are several builders now that I think can approach the quality of sound of a Gilchrist (although I do think he has more consistency and control over sound than just about anyone,) but few can nail playability the way he does.

----------

Demetrius, 

sgarrity

----------


## Nick Gellie

I played two Gils on the weekend.  One x-braced and one tone bar braced.  The first was made in 1994 and the second in 2003.  Both had flat boards and skinny frets.  The tone bar braced one had the the loudest and the deepest chop while the x-braced was louder and more developed for melody playing.

I would say your Wiens would be closer to the tone bar braced Gil. You could still extract lots of smooth tone out of both though.  Playability side they were both excellent even though the 2003 one had more relief set into the neck.  The other one was straight as a die.

Just my thoughts.

----------


## Jim Garber

> This vid makes me want one of these laminated A's.


Why do you say the Giacomel mandolins are laminated? I think it was made of solid woods. Actually the one Carlo is playing in the video is a bowlback.

----------


## Demetrius

Whatever it is i love the look.

----------


## Relio

[QUOTE=Jim Garber;1515625][QUOTE=mtucker;1515182]This vid makes me want one of these laminated A's.


> Why do you say the Giacomel mandolins are laminated? I think it was made of solid woods. Actually the one Carlo is playing in the video is a bowlback.


Those guys can really pick. sweeeet!

----------


## Jeff Mando

> Why do you say the Giacomel mandolins are laminated? I think it was made of solid woods. Actually the one Carlo is playing in the video is a bowlback.


All bowlbacks are laminated -- if you define the individual sections of the bowl as "laminations" and are glued together.  Not plywood, but technically laminated......i.e. assembled from layers, strips, pieces, etc......

----------


## Austin Bob

> All bowlbacks are laminated -- if you define the individual sections of the bowl as "laminations" and are glued together.  Not plywood, but technically laminated......i.e. assembled from layers, strips, pieces, etc......


Not sure I follow you. Aren't all mandolins assembled from pieces that are glued together?

----------


## Jeff Mando

Speaking only of the back.  Instead of defining the layers that make up the thickness of a back as lamination, I'm suggesting the layers that make up the width of the back, also could be considered laminations.  In the case of a bowlback, sometimes those sections are mighty thin.  Also, I recall some 60's guitars using 30-40 thin laminations lengthwise for the neck wood.  Seems certain Framus and Kawai brands used this technique.  For bowlbacks we consider the more sections to indicate a better quality instrument.  For the Framus and Kawai necks, I'm sure it was a cost-saving measure.....

----------


## mtucker

Jim,

It was a tongue and cheek remark... and as Jeff points out...is indeed fact, technically...just not layered lam as we all associate with cheaper instruments, laminated nonetheless.

I happen to love the look of it as I do Brian Dean's LaBraid instruments. It's voiced splendidly especially in the higher registers. Remarkable how bluegrass sounding it is in the lower end. A big part of tone comes from the hands and those are some great hands playing it!




> Why do you say the Giacomel mandolins are laminated? I think it was made of solid woods. Actually the one Carlo is playing in the video is a bowlback.

----------


## Demetrius

Not to change the subject but....
I sold the Wiens...  :Whistling:

----------

9lbShellhamer, 

barry

----------


## JeffD

You are like the cat at the door, hesitant to come in, coming in, wanting to going out, hesitating at the open door, going out, all because making a choice takes away the freedom of the choice itself.   :Smile: 

Or maybe this is like a pot boiler detective mystery, where every 31 pages some major character gets killed. At about page 62 of this thread we will see you selling the Dudenbostel you are about to agonize over and eventually purchase.  :Smile:

----------


## UlsterMando

> Not to change the subject but....
> I sold the Wiens...


The search continues !

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> Not to change the subject but....
> I sold the Wiens...


Now Demetrius, the question is...How many more posts until the Wiens is referred to (with a nostalgic sigh) as *'The one that got away'*?

----------

Franc Homier Lieu

----------


## catmandu2

> I decided to stay with the Wiens... It's proving to be something Id be silly to part with...


Awesome, congrats!

- - - Updated - - -




> Not to change the subject but....
> I sold the Wiens...


Oh

----------

Mark Wilson, 

UlsterMando

----------


## JKA

> Not to change the subject but....
> I sold the Wiens...


Good for you Dem...I'm sure the process of elimination will lead to the right one for you. Now back to the fun part of the continuing search. Might be worth staying away from F's for the time being and trying out some ovals for that sustain you're looking for.

It only took me about 40 years to find my perfect guitar so I suspect this thread still has some legs left...

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## JeffD

The day traders talk about a "pattern of indecision after a big move".

----------


## Jeff Mando

I think we're good for another 31 pages!

----------


## Demetrius

Great mandolin in every respect, and the new owner is a lucky person to own it. 
For me personally it was just a matter of fact that it aggravated my old hand injury. 
Period...

----------


## UlsterMando

Let music sound while he doth make his choice . . .

----------


## UlsterMando

> The day traders talk about a "pattern of indecision after a big move".


Let the day traders talk . . . They also say that dead cats bounce.

----------


## Jeff Mando

Those documentaries come to mind, where the person is addicted to plastic surgery (or drugs or anorexia or body building, whatever...) and the person involved can't see what everyone else is seeing.

Example:  Michael Jackson, Lisa Rinna, Charlie Sheen, Trump, well, too many to list......

----------


## Billy Packard

You know the old saying...

"The best is yet to come!"

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## UlsterMando

> Those documentaries come to mind, where the person is addicted to plastic surgery (or drugs or anorexia or body building, whatever...) and the person involved can't see what everyone else is seeing.



Those documentaries come to mind, where the person is addicted to art 
or music (or architecture or luthiery or gymnastics or whatever) and everyone 
else can't see what the person involved is seeing.

----------

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Jeff Mando

----------


## sgarrity

The Wiens I used to have had a neck like a baseball bat.  I had it for a few weeks before moving it on.

----------


## UlsterMando

It was aggravating an injury. No choice.

----------


## catmandu2

> Great mandolin in every respect, and the new owner is a lucky person to own it. 
> For me personally it was just a matter of fact that it aggravated my old hand injury. 
> Period...


I think I saw somewhere you'd said you were playing the Wiens 7 or 8 hours a day..  Perhaps this would have impact on reaggravating an injury?

Maybe it wasn't here I saw that figure...  At any rate, nothing like a lovely new instrument to inspire "too much" playing, and reaggravating injury...been there/done that many times  :Frown:

----------

Franc Homier Lieu

----------


## Mark Seale

May as well...

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/101490#101490

----------


## usqebach

So now it seems you have the opportunity to learn from two decisions made in haste: returning the Gil, then buying the Wiens.  Glad it worked out, and you are back to square one.

Seems like now is the perfect time to reset the frame and patiently go about finding a quality instrument that suits you.

I love the idea of buying something in a lower price range (3-5 k?) to keep a mandolin in your hands while you are waiting for "the one." to appear.  Might want to go with something a little more predictable and consistent like a  Collings that you can use as a reference, then determine the attributes you like or dislike about it.  Then you can focus on builders who have that attribute as a hallmark.  You can probably sell the Collings for about what you have in it.

Also, once you are really sure what you want, get thee to Nashville.  Between Gruhn's and Carter's, they have one of just about everything.

I've certainly tried the "random grasping at straws" approach, and have a closet full of fiddles and mandolins to show for it.

----------

DataNick, 

JonDoug

----------


## Jeff Mando

Forty or so years ago, when everybody was getting into home stereo, my buddy had a nice outfit and I decided I wanted one, too.  I read every magazine (in the days before the internet!) review, went to all the stereo shops, compared many components in my price range and above my price range......THEN, drumroll please -- I bought what my buddy had!  :Grin:

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## UlsterMando

> May as well...
> 
> http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/101490#101490



Good one Mr. Seale.

Demetrius, I don't recall you talking about these in your mandolin history.
You clearly love some of the more flamboyant designs so . . .   :Coffee: 
I've always found these a treat for the eyes. I've played a couple, a friend's
and one at TAMCO in Brighton, both gorgeous.
One more itch to scratch ?

----------


## barry

I think the wise move is to find a Gilchrist that speaks to you.  Based on what you (and your wife) have shared, it's what you really want.  You are just going to be creating more second-guessing for yourself until you scratch the itch.

----------

DataNick, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Demetrius

Barry  :Smile:

----------


## Andrew B. Carlson

Maybe you've tried one, or maybe you don't desire one, but have you tried new Northfield Artist series? I hear nothing but good things, both from amateurs and pros.

----------


## William Smith

> It was aggravating an injury. No choice.


I kinda figured the Wiens wouldn't last just by the picture you posted of the back of the neck, them thick deep V's really stink in my opinion, not real comfy for me, I like a small, thin rounded neck, something one can play all day without agony. The hunt is on once again KOOL!. :Popcorn:

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## Clement Barrera-Ng

> Great mandolin in every respect, and the new owner is a lucky person to own it. 
> For me personally it was just a matter of fact that it aggravated my old hand injury. 
> Period...


I can relate to that. Things like that makes even the best instruments impossible to enjoy. I guess keep looking.

----------


## Demetrius

Wow!!! What a twist and turn this search has taken on today!!!

----------


## Demetrius

Actually the next shape is pretty standard on my ol Wien. It was almost identical to the Charlie Derrington distressed Master Model that I used to own. I truly can't say anything bad about the Wiens he makes every bit the quality of a mandolin that Dudenbostels and the Gilchrist builds. Cosmetically I think he trumps anyone I've seen...I also couldn't get used to the flat board. Between that and then standard neck shape which I've never been able to get used  I was left with no choice but to sell it, since it was still in amazing condition. Some day I plan on working with Wiens to have an exact next shape and radius that I would. Everything else I would say keep the same and make it as close to the one I had as possible. I am very happy as to where the mandolin  is going to. Some great hands  in my opinion... I'll be hard-pressed to get something that sounds as good as that mandolin did but that's OK again I'm happy about where it went

----------


## UlsterMando

Who ever loved that loved not at first sight ?

You'll know it when you find the one.
Does the Monteleone not appeal ?

----------


## Josh Levine

The search continues...

----------


## Andrew B. Carlson

Hearing about the big neck on the Wiens just makes me want to try one that much more.

----------


## William Smith

> Hearing about the big neck on the Wiens just makes me want to try one that much more.


The main reason I put my Gil up for sale is the big neck :Crying:

----------


## Demetrius

I have a something arriving tomorrow morning  :Smile:

----------


## Andrew B. Carlson

> I have a something arriving tomorrow morning


Can I live your life for a few weeks please?

----------


## barry

> I have a something arriving tomorrow morning


Can we guess?  

I'll start.

Does it have S-holes?

----------


## Demetrius

I would love to start a guessing competition and whoever gets it will win? 
Ummm idk yet... I have to decide that

----------


## Demetrius

Whoever gets it first will get something..
I'm just not sure what. A cd of some sort...

----------


## Denman John

Would this be it?  I'll send ya my address  :Wink:

----------


## Demetrius

Actually before we proceed am I aloud to do that on here? If someone knows or if an admin wants to chime in and verify its cool Id love to start a guessing contest with a cd prize.  Like gentlemens betting

----------


## Demetrius

Oh boy... Already some guesses

----------


## Mark Seale

> The main reason I put my Gil up for sale is the big neck


I've got a small neck Gil that is pretty perfect.  I think it just takes looking and asking the questions.

----------


## Demetrius

Mando man! After all this Im starting to turn into a mandolin

----------


## UlsterMando

> Mando man! After all this Im starting to turn into a mandolin


I'm not sure about that neck profile.

I guess your silence on the "Monte" is telling. :Popcorn:

----------


## JKA

It'll be a Brentup (or Gil or...)

Can I have a Blue Chip please instead of a CD? (can't find any in the UK)

----------


## pops1

My guess would also be a Brentrup, too much love there in past posts, but then Alex has a Brentrup soooooo?????

----------


## CES

For kicks and giggles, I'm voting for the Brentrup you let slip away...

----------


## barry

Anything other than a Gil is going to add dozens of pages to this thread.

----------

Denman John, 

sgarrity, 

The Musician's Wife

----------


## Demetrius

Barry lol

----------


## Atlanta Mando Mike

i imagine the problems with the incoming mandolin to be-  "The mandolin will be too loud", " I just couldn't get used to it... Sounded too much like Reishman's Loar", "the case was just too squeaky", "I loved everything about the mandolin but one tuner was a little stiff so I had to send it back"...  :Smile:

----------

Demetrius, 

houseworker, 

Jill McAuley, 

Malin, 

Mark Wilson, 

vetus scotia

----------


## almeriastrings

> "the case was just too squeaky"


Yes... that's always a major deal-breaker.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## barry

.......and then "release it".

('cause that's how we roll at Ye Ol' Mandolin Cafe)


B

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Jim Garber

Man, I neglected to check this thread for a few days and look what happened. 

I was going to suggest again that you commission a mandolin from one of the best builders with you exact specs but with your track record I have a feeling that if any of those folks are reading this they might not want to take that chance. I still think the best bet for you would be to buy an existing mandolin and have the original luthier, if possible, customize it.

I know: what fun is that?

----------


## Demetrius

So what else would I be doing right now? Ups tracking site...

----------


## William Smith

> So what else would I be doing right now? Ups tracking site...


NICEEEE! Whatever she is, Hope it passes the test but if not send that beast back from where it came...You'll know when you find a keeper. "really don't have to tell you or anyone that but hey" Perhaps a Nugget is in your future :Cool:  That Wiens was Kool,sounded pretty darn good to me, His building and attention to detail is about the best thats out there, Too bad about the neck, thats one of my problems with so many mandolins. I recently tried a 37 F-5 and if the neck would've been less beefy and not needing a neckset I would've taken it home. 
     Personally I don't mind shaving down a neck,Just know exactly where/how deep that truss rod is! I've been known to be a little nutty :Grin:

----------


## soliver

If I were to venture a guess, it'd be the Monte mentioned earlier, or a Gil.

----------


## Upis Land

it's a gil!

----------


## Bill McCall

Don't worry, whatever it turns out to be, it'll get some love before its rejected because the sunburst is too dark/light in one area and "I just can't get used to it."  I also suspect that the number of willing sellers decreases each day.

----------

Franc Homier Lieu

----------


## JeffD

> Don't worry, whatever it turns out to be, it'll get some love before its rejected because...


I hate to think you are right, but its clearly the way to bet.

I look forward to hearing from Dem in the future, maybe, someday, about issues of technique and tone production, issues of tunes and chords, playing in a band, or solo, or jamming, all the other parts of the mandolin world that become important once the tools have been selected and acquired.

----------

Jstring

----------


## Jstring

> Don't worry, whatever it turns out to be, it'll get some love before its rejected because the sunburst is too dark/light in one area and "I just can't get used to it."  I also suspect that the number of willing sellers decreases each day.


Seriously.... I can't believe anyone would ship him a high-dollar mandolin if they've seen this thread.

What I find most curious: as someone who gigs a few times per month, I've learned that the mandolin I'm playing is irrelevant. The audience only cares if I'm playing interesting music and playing it well. And I certainly don't want to take a $10-20k mandolin to crowded bars or coffee shops. 

The OP has actually recorded and toured? You'd think he would be more obsessed with the music than the instrument.

----------

Franc Homier Lieu, 

Jill McAuley

----------


## Demetrius

Wow... Harsh lol
That's really sad...

----------

Billy Packard, 

Mark Wilson, 

sgarrity, 

Steve-o, 

UlsterMando, 

William Smith

----------


## ajm2qc03

more power to you, Dem...if I had the money to "INVEST" (because instruments like those are surely investments, especially in this market) then I would in a heart beat. as I'm sure anybody on this thread would do. do what makes you happy and if a nice instrument, albeit damn nice, facilitates that happiness, why would anybody NOT do that. I'm excited to see what you get

----------

Billy Packard, 

Demetrius, 

Steve-o, 

UlsterMando, 

William Smith

----------


## Hallmark498

26 Gibson F5 at carters would do

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Mandobar

No instrument is an investment, as the resale market has not hit bottom yet.  In another year, you will see at least a 20% drop in used prices and values over what they are today. There are more people selling now, than buying.  There are a lot of collectors weeping right now over resale prices as they cash out towards retirement.  Last year a 40's Martin 000-28 was $19k, the same instrument is now $14k and still not selling.  Don't buy anything as an investment.  Buy it because you like it and are going to play it.

----------

Clement Barrera-Ng, 

Mark Wilson

----------


## William Smith

> 26 Gibson F5 at carters would do


I'm in lust with that fern.. Sweeeeeeeeeet. There is a video of it. Nice
    And Dem, good for you with whatever you get, thats your choice and business! If you don't like her send it back and try another. I'd think anyone would sell to ya, thats business for a potential sale, eventually. When I spend $$ on anything regardless of price I'd like to be happy wouldn't anyone else!

----------

lflngpicker

----------


## Upis Land

> No instrument is an investment, as the resale market has not hit bottom yet.  In another year, you will see at least a 20% drop in used prices and values over what they are today. There are more people selling now, than buying.  There are a lot of collectors weeping right now over resale prices as they cash out towards retirement.  Last year a 40's Martin 000-28 was $19k, the same instrument is now $14k and still not selling.  Don't buy anything as an investment.  Buy it because you like it and are going to play it.


Agree with your last point fully. The best reason to buy an instrument is to like and play it. I think what you mean to say is that market timing is poor for an instrument as a short term investment; and that is probably sage advice! But don't take away folks rationalization of instruments as an investment. No investment is risk free, and surely there are both better and worse investments than fine musical instruments. 

One of the principles of permaculture is stacking functions- for instance planting one tree for food, shade, erosion control and as a privacy barrier. In this way a great mandolin is both a joy to play and a long term place to park disposable income, i.e. an investment.

Just doing my part to keep the fun going.

----------

Bob Clark, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Mandobar

Upis, I like the tree analogy, especially the point about erosion control. :Smile:

----------


## The Musician's Wife

OK, here goes... a teaser video before revealing the final purchase...

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/home/stay-tuned

----------

lflngpicker

----------


## JeffD

It is only an investment if you plan to sell it. Except for securities and my house, I don't buy anything I plan to sell. More often than not I have had to pay to have my cars taken away.

----------

lflngpicker

----------


## UlsterMando

While we await the big reveal
. . . A mandolin favourite.

----------

lflngpicker, 

Mark Seale

----------


## DataNick

> OK, here goes... a teaser video before revealing the final purchase...
> 
> http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/home/stay-tuned


_Final!_  Who are you guys kiddin?


Box looked like _Collings_ on the front

----------

lflngpicker

----------


## UlsterMando

> _Final!_  Who are you guys kiddin?
> 
> 
> Box looked like _Collings_ on the front


Chap says it isn't a Collings.

----------

DataNick

----------


## Upis Land

> It is only an investment if you plan to sell it.


Nonesense! If you don't sell your mandolin your grandchildren will.




> More often than not I have had to pay to have my cars taken.


Everyone knows, or should know, autos are consumables, so they don't count.

Back to the subject on hand... is it a gil? ...oh boy!

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## Clement Barrera-Ng

Maybe Dem got a MF5V as a beater while his search continues.. ?  :Popcorn:  Can't wait for the big reveal!

----------


## The Musician's Wife

Here we go...It's been real, guys... but I really think this search has officially ended...

http://themusicianswife.weebly.com/h...arch-has-ended

----------


## UlsterMando

Glad to see you found the one.
It was a fun ride. Well done ! 
Enjoy the potatoes out of it ! (Thanks JeffD)

----------


## barry

Well done!

----------


## Mark Seale

> While we await the big reveal
> . . . A mandolin favourite.


Zeidler?

----------

UlsterMando

----------


## Sheryl McDonald

> Great mandolin in every respect, and the new owner is a lucky person to own it. 
> For me personally it was just a matter of fact that it aggravated my old hand injury. 
> Period...


So what does the Gil neck look like?

----------


## Demetrius

Id say it is fairly large with a definite v

----------


## catmandu2

> Id say it is fairly large with a definite v


Uh oh...I hear a slight rumbling of trepidation...!

Ha, just kidding.  Cool with me if you change axes every week.  But hey, wasn't it the "v"-neck you all didn't like (due to injury exacerbation? - or perhaps it was someone else who'd mentioned that about the "v"s).  I realize this is apples to oranges, but I had a big problem when I played on (basses) with small  necks (Kays) - which I LOVED at the time, and hated the big fat necks.  Turns out, the fat ones are much better in maintaining hand comfort, and is the case for roughly 90% of players I know..

Anyway, may or may not have any correlation .. your account just made me think of it.  Cheers and congrats -

----------


## sgarrity

Congrats on the Gil!

----------


## Clement Barrera-Ng

Nice! Is this the same one from gryphon? And was there a video of you playing it from before? If not don't forget to record one.

----------


## Malin

Nooooo send her back! I don't want this thread to end!!!!
Just kidding....  Enjoy!

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> I sent it back because I felt it had a couple of cosmetuc issues.
> Issues that I thought I could see in the Website pics, so I inquireed about them 
> Before ordering. Unfortunately the sales person or no one else could see what I meant so I was assured it was fine.
> When it arrived I inspected the instrument and those issues were not my imagination. 
> Nothing big,just binding separation issues. Needless to say it still made me uncomfortable. So I immediately  contacted Gryphon and they were very cooperative and offered to fix it. There is also some set up issues that I just didn't feel like dealing with.I just felt like it was a lot of money to spend to have to worry about some of what it had going on. I communicated with Steve Gilchrest about this mandolin and he is just an unbelievably cool person. I can't even get over it to be honest. He makes an incredible mandolin, and as a human being he is equally kind hearted and passionate about what he does. That said, someone got their hands on this mandolin,   somewhere alone the line someone got hold of this mandolin and the set up was absolutely terrible. The bridge top didn't match the radius, so you can imagine what that did to the outer strings physically and tonally. The mandolin has naturally aged in a way that a mandolin ages without even being played. Finish checking Looks gorgeous, but I have a feeling this mandolin hasn't been played a lot it is was more so collected than anything. I don't think it ever opened up or it went back to sleep either way I didn't want to take a chance on that aspect either. I have to be completely happy where it is and if it gets better great but if it stayed the same I'd have to know that I'd be able to live with the sound exactly the way it is. It was a mid range monster he could probably cut through any max I even had a chance to record with it on and electronic project my friend is doing.I just played a little rough in the beginning and little froze throughout nothing too crazy but it was still enough to see that it is an incredible recording instrument. It lacked in the base but I do feel like a set of had a lot to do with this.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> PS excuse me for the typos, I typed this on my iPhone.


How is the set up? And the cosmetic issues, have they been taken care of? Does that case squeak?  :Grin:

----------


## UlsterMando

> Zeidler?


Yes Mark . . . Zeidler.

The most beautifully evolved F5 design I've ever seen.
I hope that sight of this doesn't prompt Demetrius to do anything rash !


Images are reproduced with the kind permission of Gruhn Guitars.

----------


## mtucker

Merry Christmas!

----------


## barry

Can we get a video demo?

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> TEvans, I could couldn't agree with you any more... Ive been playing this Wiens about 8 hrs a day since I got it and Im already starting to hear this happening. in fact in the last couple of days its taken on some dramatic changes. The thing Im starting to realize about this mandolin is the core sound is spectacular. Its not complex, which may or may not come in time. I just dont know, but what I do know is that what is there now is the following.
> 1. Pure wood tone, very little string sound aside for the slide noise that comes from the exp strings.
> 2. Solid note, with a rather quick decay. The tapering of sound is pleasant though, not muted and it evenly falls to silence without losing that warm wood tone.
> 3. Very responsive, and explosive... Recording may be a bit of a challenge. Every single note on this fretboard has that explosive pop but with that thup sound that Ive loved in every Loar Ive ever played.
> 4. Fit and finish is by far best Ive seen to date. I can't imagine a human doing any better hand work than this.
> 5. Dave Harvey did the set up on this Wiens and I think from this point on, every instrument I ever get set up on will be done by him definitely.
> 
> Thanks, 
> Dem


If you start playing the Gil 8 hours a day, 1) please record some video and 2) stop playing 8 hours a day if you have a hand injury that is acting up.

----------


## JeffD

Nice nice mandolin. Time for the honeymoon.

That case looks interesting too.

----------


## Jeff Mando

I hate to encourage him, but after 35 pages.......OK, how about some pics/video ?

(probably still practicing......it's only been 7 hours and 49 minutes...... :Wink: )

----------


## Hallmark498

> If you start playing the Gil 8 hours a day, 1) please record some video and 2) stop playing 8 hours a day if you have a hand injury that is acting up.


Amen!  I don't care what it is, 8hours of anything would kill my hands.

Demetrius; Who did the setup and how does the Gil smell?

----------


## Relio

Congrats! Enjoy your Gil in good health!!

----------


## Billy Packard

> Amen!  I don't care what it is, 8hours of anything would kill my hands.
> 
> Demetrius; Who did the setup and how does the Gil smell?


Jeff! You reminded me of a time, a long time ago!

I met with Stephen about 3 years after I got my Gil A3, about 1996 at The Carmel Music store.  The FIRST thing Steve did was put his big schnoz up to one of the F-holes and take a big sniff!  That startled me and I never remembered to ask him what he was looking/sniffing for.

Billy Packard

billypackardmandolin.com

----------


## Jeff Mando

> Jeff! You reminded me of a time, a long time ago!


Me too, I can barely remember back then, back before this thread started!   :Whistling:

----------


## Demetrius

Here's some pics, I'll post a few videos soon...

----------

Billy Packard, 

DataNick, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Steve-o, 

TEvans, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Austin Bob

> Here's some pics, I'll post a few videos soon...


Mando envy.

----------


## Mark Seale

Dig the flowerpot tonegard.

----------


## Jim Garber

Nice! Congratulations.

The wife posts:



> I really think it's over this time, folks.


Do we believe it? It is not over until it is over… or is it ever over… or over ever?

So it also looks like before this acquisition you cleared your house of all mandolins but kept an empty Calton case, just in case (no pun intended)?

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Nick Gellie

Well I always thought it was going to be a Gilchrist even though the prices for them are way too high but them folks out there still want to buy them for that price and Steve is benefiting.

----------


## Demetrius

It would be silly for me to say, it's over and mean it cause let's face it... There's always a mandolin out there that you could play and like more than the one you have. Right now this mandolin is wonderful for what I'm doing, but if in the future I evolve and change what I'm doing then maybe the need for a different sounding mandolin will come too. There's always a chance for a new search, but for now I'm really loving what I found...

----------

UlsterMando, 

William Smith

----------


## almeriastrings

Hey, if it falls beneath expectations in a week or two, you could always go on a hunt around barber's shops in Florida.

Has been known to work for some.

----------

DataNick, 

UlsterMando

----------


## CES

Congrats, man!

----------


## Demetrius



----------

sgarrity

----------


## William Smith

> Dig the flowerpot tonegard.


Yeh man that is Kool! Where can ya get one of those tonegards? Do they make other designs?

----------


## Mark Seale

> Yeh man that is Kool! Where can ya get one of those tonegards? Do they make other designs?


You can get them directly from Tony as well as other custom designs.

----------


## sblock

> Yeh man that is Kool! Where can ya get one of those tonegards? Do they make other designs?


Get in touch with Tony Pires at ToneGard.  (I have NFI.) There are many custom designs he's made in the past, including a kokopeli, Dawg, flowerpot, and so on, in addition to the standard Art Deco and Sunrise versions.  Click  *here*.

----------


## Demetrius

Unfortunately Gibson won't permit him to sell the flower pots anymore. He originally made a bunch that Gibson offered with the Skaggs distressed Master models.

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

This was a truly remarkable thread. It really is too bad that it is dying down now that the final for now purchase has been made. But on the other hand, this discussion was such a sensation that Demetrius and his search are now part of the Cafe's culture. References to him and his buying and selling will no doubt continue to turn up in other threads for a long time to come, like in this one

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ds-users/page4

Demetrius is the new 'ham sandwich'!

----------

Demetrius

----------


## usqebach

Demetrius,

Sorry if I have missed something obvious.

Was this THE Gilchrist that was originally returned back to Gryphon, or is it A Gilchrist that was acquired elsewhere?

Question to follow depending on the answer.

----------


## Demetrius

Hi Jim,

    Yes this is indeed the one from Gryphon... Great group of guys over there!

----------


## George R. Lane

I take they made all the necessary repairs?

----------


## Demetrius

They did everything they could to make it a really pleasant experience, and it is very muchappreciated... I will be buying more from them for sure...

----------


## John Soper

Demetrius:

Based on this thread, I would make a safe bet that you will be buying from Gryphon (or somebody) again!  :Whistling:

----------

Demetrius

----------


## Demetrius

Indeed

----------


## Demetrius

Ok so what I love most about this particular Gil, is its incredibly strong mid range... I brought it to a jam the other night with probably 15 musicians going at it at once. When I took a break, no matter how loud the others were playing the Gil cut through all of it with no effort. I didn't have to change my technique and hit it harder just to hear what I was doing. Its sooooooo responsive with a boat load of sustain. What is ironic, is how bright it is for an engelman topped mandolin. I know all wood can vary but most of the engelman topped mandolins Ive played had a bit of a darkness to them and didn't always cut through a mix well. Im just speaking from the ones Ive played, Im sure there are ones out there that can cut through a banjo, and thats exactly what this Gilchrist is doing. Id love to hear from others that may have experienced this delightful surprise with their engelman topped mandolins. Steve said this mandolin #173 is graduated very similar to McCourys "big red"... What a beast that one is, especially after all those years of the Ronnie hammering on it. I don't even know if his Loar could catch up at this point...


Dem

----------

9lbShellhamer, 

Billy Packard, 

TEvans

----------


## Josh Levine

Dem, 

Did you post a video? Haven't seen one yet, but want to hear this beast.

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## Atlanta Mando Mike

I've got an engelmann topped Daley that is similar.  It's a quintessential bluegrass mandolin with a big chop and lots of cut.  I was surprised but then again, the wood guys say it's less about the name and more about the grain and individual piece of wood itself.  Who knows?  Mandolins seem to defy my expectation all the time.  I've come to the opinion that it's the mandolin and not all the other things.  What I like and don't like seems to be less about maker, wood type, body style, nut width, radius vs straight, big frets vs thin frets and all the other things and more about how they all come together in a specific mandolin.  Each is different.  The rules get broken all the time.

----------

Billy Packard, 

DataNick, 

MediumMando5722, 

sgarrity, 

UlsterMando

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## Demetrius

Here is a little noodling on this quiet Sunday afternoon...

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sgarrity, 

TEvans

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## Jim Garber

Nice, Dem. For us geeks, what strings and what pick are you using?

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Demetrius

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## mandowilli

Pick noise on the Florida extension. 

Send it back.

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Demetrius

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## barry

I see where you're coming from, Demetrius.  The Gil has a mature tone.  The Wiens had more brilliance and tonal density, but was greener sounding overall.  Instruments have to fit like a comfortable shoe.

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Billy Packard, 

Demetrius

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## Demetrius

Jim, thanks man... I'm using a white wegan tf-140. The strings are whatever came on the Gil. I'm assuming exp74's but I'll be making the switch to standard ej74's. 


Will, ha ha... Real funny... What's your address? I'll just send it to you...


Barry, Yeh I mean the Wiens was already a monster, and to be honest I could see myself takin a crack at another Wiens someday. Heck I may even try to get that one back if the new owner ever wanted to part with it. The Gil is my number one and will stay that way. It is my hoss, my crusher... It's one of those mandos. You can buy others to add to the collection but that will always b the machine you take out to get the work done... I will say this Gil is about 30 years old and certainly sounds it but not from play. This thing wasn't played at all I don't think. The only sign of wear is from I swear natural curing and aging. There is finish crazing just about everywhere, but there is almost no play wear at all.
I love love love, the mid range... That's the chase for a lot of builders and Gilcrist really hit it hard on this Mando...

Best,
Dem

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## UlsterMando

I really liked the tone the Weins delivered but I understand why it had to go. 
The Gilchrist sounds great. My old headmaster used to say,
"Good things come to he who waits . . . _long enough_"

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Demetrius

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## KMaynard

Dem, back on page 14 of this thread you state Gryphon wouldn't sell this to you again. You called and ask and they politely told you it evidently wasn't the mandolin for you. Then i remember seeing it leave the webpage listings at gryphon a couple days after and someone said it had sold. Then two weeks later you bought it. How did all that happen?

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## Jeff Mando

> Dem, back on page 14 of this thread you state Gryphon wouldn't sell this to you again. You called and ask and they politely told you it evidently wasn't the mandolin for you. Then i remember seeing it leave the webpage listings at gryphon a couple days after and someone said it had sold. Then two weeks later you bought it. How did all that happen?


 :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:  :Popcorn:

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## Franc Homier Lieu

> I see where you're coming from, Demetrius.  The Gil has a mature tone.  The Wiens had more brilliance and tonal density, but was greener sounding overall.  Instruments have to fit like a comfortable shoe.


Wow. That is a lot of nuance from a couple of minutes of iPhone video. I am sure it is an exquisite instrument, but to me on that video it just sounds like almost any other mandolin. Same with the Wiens.

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## barry

> Wow. That is a lot of nuance from a couple of minutes of iPhone video. I am sure it is an exquisite instrument, but to me on that video it just sounds like almost any other mandolin. Same with the Wiens.


I based my comparison on the video of his brother playing the Wiens that comes up after Demetrius's most recent video ends.  I realize there is a different player, different touch, and different music.  I've just played enough of them to hear how they respond to what's being given to them.

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## jaycat

> . . . My old headmaster used to say,
> "Good things come to *he* who waits . . . _long enough_"


Your schoolmaster didn't know when to use the objective case?

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## Manfred Hacker

There must be hundreds of thousands of people watching right now !  :Mandosmiley: 
I have problems viewing the video.

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Demetrius

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## Demetrius

Manfred how's your Brentrup? I love that Mando!!!

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## catmandu2

Love the one you're with.  :Smile:

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## Manfred Hacker

Demetrius, I am getting ready to post something that makes you send me offers  :Grin: 

Just need to change strings first. I have been trying out Thomastiks for the first time and only like the longevity but not so much the tone (on that mandolin)
This is how they sound:
https://youtu.be/hayGCSh656U

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## Demetrius

Manfred, have you shared this with my brother? He was thinking of trying a set of flat wound on his Brentrup.

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## UlsterMando

[QUOTE=jaycat;1517127]Your schoolmaster didn't know when to use the objective case?[/QUOTE


The objective case ain't no part of nuthin'.

----------

jaycat

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## sblock

> Dem, back on page 14 of this thread you state Gryphon wouldn't sell this to you again. You called and ask and they politely told you it evidently wasn't the mandolin for you. Then i remember seeing it leave the webpage listings at gryphon a couple days after and someone said it had sold. Then two weeks later you bought it. How did all that happen?


+1   We're waiting to find out the true story.

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## Canoedad

> +1  We're waiting to find out the true story.


New thread:  How The Search Concluded

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## Demetrius

As far as the very specifics of the ending business transaction between Gryphon and I, that stays between Gryphon and I... If they would like to post the story on here then they are free too do so. I will not do so without thier permission.. 

What I will say is that in ended up being an overall very pleasant experience for both buyer and seller, and we both walked away saying we look forward to future transactions with one another. There was a minor email mis communication during the original return of the Gil that was quickly resolved... Gryphon truly is a world class company to deal with.
Ok, back to playing!

Dem

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## KMaynard

I still don't understand. I don't want to know price, etc, but I think you owe it to this thread and the people who've contributed by explaining the timeline. I'm not accusing you of deception, but there's a lot of questions unanswered as you kept this thread going on and on. There seems to be some things that just don't add up. You sent the Gilchrist back, said they wouldn't sell it back to you, it was then listed on their site for sale, then 2 days after that, about August 6 or 7 it was taken off and said it was sold. Now, fast foward to 8/26/16 and it arrived at your house again. But in the interim, you purchased the Wiens and then listed that for sale. 

It's up to you to respond, but I really do think it's the least you could do for the thread followers.

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## Jeff Mando

Maybe he made an offer they couldn't refuse........... :Smile:

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## Canoedad

> Maybe he made an offer they couldn't refuse...........


Or maybe Demetrius made an offer _he_ couldn't refuse.  Wait for it ...

----------


## catmandu2

> I still don't understand. I don't want to know price, etc, but I think you owe it to this thread and the people who've contributed by explaining the timeline. I'm not accusing you of deception, but there's a lot of questions unanswered as you kept this thread going on and on. There seems to be some things that just don't add up. You sent the Gilchrist back, said they wouldn't sell it back to you, it was then listed on their site for sale, then 2 days after that, about August 6 or 7 it was taken off and said it was sold. Now, fast foward to 8/26/16 and it arrived at your house again. But in the interim, you purchased the Wiens and then listed that for sale. 
> 
> It's up to you to respond, but I really do think it's the least you could do for the thread followers.


Kmaynard, I havent read the entirety, but i read "the wife speaks" part, where it says: "...what are you passionate about sometimes to the point of insanity?" 

Does there have to be a "rational" explanation to any of this?  Maybe they just like to buy expensive mandolins...?

----------


## Mandobar

The transaction is between Dem and Gryphon.  Period. If he says he will not discuss it let's all respect his decision.  He owes us nothing.  Everyone who has signed in here has done so of their own free will.  Let him have some privacy over the transaction.

----------

Billy Packard, 

Demetrius, 

George R. Lane, 

JEStanek, 

JKA, 

sgarrity, 

Steve-o, 

UlsterMando

----------


## William Smith

Very Nice Gil Dem. I'm glad that they fixed the issues you had with it, curious did they fit a full contact bridge on her? If I remember correct there was some dipping going on, on the top from the bridge feet, my 82 Gil also had this and I fit a full contact and problem gone!
  Yours sounds pretty much like my 82, I wonder what top wood was used on mine? Mine is X-braced.

----------

Demetrius

----------


## houseworker

> The transaction is between Dem and Gryphon.  Period. If he says he will not discuss it let's all respect his decision.


It would have been far better if Dem had exercised some discretion in his dealings with Gryphon from the outset rather than appearing happy to trash their reputation.

----------


## sgarrity

No one's reputation was thrashed here.  Gryphon sold a high end mandolin and I'm sure made a profit.  Dem got the mandolin he wanted.  Case closed!

----------

Billy Packard, 

Demetrius, 

George R. Lane, 

Steve-o, 

UlsterMando

----------


## JKA

> No one's reputation was thrashed here.  Gryphon sold a high end mandolin and I'm sure made a profit.  Dem got the mandolin he wanted.  Case closed!


I'm in total agreement with you on this one. Dem got the mandolin he wanted, Gryphon got a sale, we've been endlessly entertained, nobody died, the sun will come up tomorrow (well, maybe not in the North East of England) and we'll all continue with our passion. Life is beautiful.

----------

Demetrius, 

sgarrity, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

> No one's reputation was thrashed here.  Gryphon sold a high end mandolin and I'm sure made a profit.  Dem got the mandolin he wanted.  Case closed!


Exactly. In fact I just went to Gryphon's website and found this testimonial on the main page:




> I sent it back because I felt it had a couple of cosmetuc issues.
> Issues that I thought I could see in the Website pics, so I inquireed about them 
> Before ordering. Unfortunately the sales person or no one else could see what I meant so I was assured it was fine.
> When it arrived I inspected the instrument and those issues were not my imagination. 
> Nothing big,just binding separation issues. Needless to say it still made me uncomfortable. So I immediately  contacted Gryphon and they were very cooperative and offered to fix it. There is also some set up issues that I just didn't feel like dealing with.I just felt like it was a lot of money to spend to have to worry about some of what it had going on. I communicated with Steve Gilchrest about this mandolin and he is just an unbelievably cool person. I can't even get over it to be honest. He makes an incredible mandolin, and as a human being he is equally kind hearted and passionate about what he does. That said, someone got their hands on this mandolin,   somewhere alone the line someone got hold of this mandolin and the set up was absolutely terrible. The bridge top didn't match the radius, so you can imagine what that did to the outer strings physically and tonally. The mandolin has naturally aged in a way that a mandolin ages without even being played. Finish checking Looks gorgeous, but I have a feeling this mandolin hasn't been played a lot it is was more so collected than anything. I don't think it ever opened up or it went back to sleep either way I didn't want to take a chance on that aspect either. I have to be completely happy where it is and if it gets better great but if it stayed the same I'd have to know that I'd be able to live with the sound exactly the way it is. It was a mid range monster he could probably cut through any max I even had a chance to record with it on and electronic project my friend is doing.I just played a little rough in the beginning and little froze throughout nothing too crazy but it was still enough to see that it is an incredible recording instrument. It lacked in the base but I do feel like a set of had a lot to do with this.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> PS excuse me for the typos, I typed this on my iPhone.


But how do we know that Gryphon did not pay for this endorsement? I mean, such effusive praise is suspicious.

----------


## Demetrius

What the heck??? You have got to be joking... lol! Wow Im speechless...
 :Disbelief:

----------

Billy Packard

----------


## ollaimh

the best sounding mandolin i ever tried was an apitius A with two point body.  it was an elegant design and an amazing loud warm and crisp tone. like a twenties gibson snakehead on steroids, with a touch of sweet.
i met givens decades ago out in spokane washington.  he had mandolins at a guitar store called the guitar emporium or the guitar gallery, something like that.  the As blew me away as well.  he came up to me when i was busking the downtown lunch crowd with a bouzouki and a harp.   he invited me up to his place but foolishly i went on to the next gig and never came back. he thought he could make a better bouzouki.  and i imagine he could have. i didn't know who he was. nice guy. we ate together at the hippie health food spot after.   those great A were going for 1500 at the time--a steal.  i had just bought a 1924 gibson snakehead from the  store called the sound hole, and couldn't afford another mandolin.  i rreally shold have hung around and gone up to his place.

but i really liked that apitius  two point A, it was at the 12th frett in toronto for around five grand cnd.  shoulda bought that one as well but couldn't afford it.

----------


## Josh Levine

> It would have been far better if Dem had exercised some discretion in his dealings with Gryphon from the outset rather than appearing happy to trash their reputation.


Seriously, everybody involved in this transaction is happy but you.

----------

George R. Lane, 

sgarrity, 

UlsterMando

----------


## Franc Homier Lieu

Edited. Nevermind.

----------


## Demetrius

Ollaimh,

    I agree Apitius mandolins are remarkable, and Givens A mandos are hands down some of my favorite creations of all time... Thanks for chiming in, I enjoyed reading your story, about Chillin with Givens.

----------


## Jeff Mando

> The transaction is between Dem and Gryphon..............Let him have some privacy over the transaction.


Normally, I would agree.  But, 37 pages later, 3 mandolins (well, 4 if you count the Gil twice!), a bunch of videos, detailed descriptions regarding the nuance of sound, wood type, bracing, playing styles, a separate wife blog, and countless boxes of Kleenex later -- I would say, the expectation and assumption of privacy is probably out the window, in this case.  But hey, that's the beauty of just being Dem -- he is willing to lay it all out there for us.  It has been an interesting journey, highly entertaining, and the end result seems very good!   :Smile:

----------

Billy Packard, 

Demetrius, 

Mark Wilson, 

sblock

----------

