# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  Tell me about: mandolin rhythm in Irish trad

## SincereCorgi

Hi all; I've been playing mostly bluegrass and old time lately, but somebody invited me to play at a fairly good local Irish session, to my great pleasure, so I'm doing 'homework' to keep from embarrassing myself.

The tunes aren't the problem- I got all the Foinn Seisiún downloads for play-along and some other stuff, and realize that tunes just take time to work their way into your brain and fingers. Since this takes a while, can anybody suggest some strategies for playing tasteful, unobtrusive rhythm on the tunes I don't know? Do people _do_ that on mandolin in trad music? I've watched some Irish guitar rhythm stuff, and could copy it, but I thought I'd throw it open to the Cafe to see what people think.

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## Steve L

Don't do it.  Play the melodies you know or have a pint and enjoy the music.  Take along a recorder or at least a notebook to jot down titles of the tunes they play so you can key in on those.  Think about participating in this session as a long term investment.  Take your time, learn the tunes, listen and make friends.  As tempting as it is to jump right in, it can send a lot of wrong messages if you don't know the tunes.

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## John Flynn

Steve:

I hope you're not saying that "rhythm players are not welcome at sessions!" Because that would imply that guitar and bouzouki players need to sit out also. What you suggest would have most of us sitting out for years.

To the OP, I think there are ways for rhythm players to work into sessions. A great book on it is, "Celtic Back-up for All Instrumentalists" by Chris Smith, although I will warn you, it is not an easy book. There are some issues you will encounter with playing rhythm at sessions. One is that Irish music does not "need" rhythm support in the same sense that bluegrass and old-time do, because the rhythm is inherent in the melodies.That actually frees you up a bit to try some different things. You want avoid any of the BG and OT "boom-chuck" stuff. You can do single strums on down beats, you can mimic the rhythm in the melody, you can mimic the bodhran player, just to name a few things you can try. 

The next issue is playing the right chords and the same chords the other rhythm players are playing. It will not be 1-4-5 very often. You may be in minor or modal keys. You will have minor and seventh chords. You may have more different chords in a given tune than typical in BG and OT. The chords may change at odd intervals compared to BG and OT.

The session I go to has a published set list and standardized chords for each tune in the list. This make it easy for rhythm players. If you don't have that, see if you can make friends with a rhythm player at the session and see if he will show you the ropes.

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## Jim Bevan

I'm with Steve on this one. 

It's a shame that Irish trad in North America seems to have developed the working philosophy that a rhythm player who doesn't know the tune will have something to contribute that will be an improvement over the tune played by itself.

Learn the tune, and also figure out a nice rhythmic counterpart, and then be prepared to improvise your contribution, depending on what you feel is needed.
(Standardized chords don't sound like much fun, and I wouldn't pay much attention to them.)

At any rate, you can play what you want, but ya gotta know the tune!

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## Steve L

John, what I was trying to say to the OP is that someone who's just starting to learn tunes coming into an established Irish session trying to use his orientation to American folk music to hunt and peck for chord changes and trying to play a back beat is not going to endear himself to anyone there. There's also a good chance someone there is already backing and having 2 or more players muddying up the rhythm and the harmony is going to be unpleasant.  Mandolins typically are more melody instruments rather than rhythm in sessions and in my experience a session with standardized chord changes is strange.  If it works for the people involved, that's great but I've not seen that.  There are some incredible guitar and bouzouki players here in the Boston area and playing with them is a joy.

If you want to play this music, you have to absorb it by listening to it and you really have to learn the tunes.  There's no short way around that if you want to do it right.

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## Avi Ziv

Steve, I'm with you on this. That's how I got into it years ago and it worked well for me as well as my fellow players

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## SincereCorgi

I may have given the wrong impression I don't intend to show up and chop I IV V chords on the off-beats. I've listened to a fair amount of trad music and worked through some of the "Celtic Back-Up" book, and I also have enough common sense not to step on the progressions of any resident rhythm players. I guess you could say I've got a "first, do no harm" approach to the thing. My question is: does _anybody_ have a mandolin approach to playing rhythm on Irish tunes? I guess I could just buy a nice, big bodhran. Or spoons... yeah... spoons...

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## michaelpthompson

There are ways for rhythm players to work into an Irish session, but the key is "work in." Don't try to jump in right away, and don't play if you don't know the tune. Maybe you can't play melody on it yet, but you should at least be familiar with the tune before you try to contribute. An Irish session is all about the tune. It's not a place to show off your chops, and it's not a jam. The tunes are traditional, and people have very definite ideas about how they should be played.

I never bring an instrument to a session the first time. Sit back, listen, ask questions if there's a break, get to know people. Find out what the rules are, spoken and unspoken.

Some sessions believe there should be no more than one guitar, one accordion, one banjo, one bodhrán, etc., on a tune. Too much rhythm muddies the water, especially if you haven't played together before. Others are more open, but you need to figure out which before you jump in.

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## foldedpath

Don't do it. Learn the tunes.  :Smile: 

As has often been said of this music: the melody in Irish trad is fixed, and accompaniment is improvised. It's the reverse of what you're used to in OldTime or Bluegrass. There is a reason why you don't have more than one soloist improvising at the same time in traditional Jazz or Bluegrass. There's a similar reason why trad sessions usually try to limit the number of backers improvising chord choices and rhythm accompaniment at the same time. Even a single backer can throw off the melody players, if they haven't quite nailed the progression or the rhythm. The chances for chaos increase exponentially, as more people are flailing away at it. 

The mandolin has an additional problem that guitar and bouzouki players don't have, which is that our instrument sits in the same register as the fiddles. If you play the melody line along with the fiddles, you'll blend right in, and be a part of the music. If you start strumming or arpeggiating chords, then it's much more likely to clash and distract the fiddlers because you're right in their range. 

In an Irish trad session, it's considered perfectly normal to sit out the tunes you don't know. Nobody will think less of you, if you just listen, and gradually learn the tunes that the session plays over time. If you're the only backer at a session, then do your best to fill that role. If a guitar and/or bouzouki player is already filling the backer role, then think carefully about whether your chord contribution is really _needed_, or if you're just doing it because you don't know the tune, and you can't stand not being part of the action. 

As someone else said somewhere; you're either contributing to the music, or you're detracting from it. There is no middle ground -- no "do no harm" position -- in a genre of music like this where melody is the primary thing, and backup is incidental.

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## David Surette

I think mandolin can be just as good a rhythm instrument as bouzouki or guitar, with the added advantage that it's easier to play the tunes on the mando, if you choose to play melody. It is in the same range as the fiddle, so I often try to play parts that focus on the lower two strings. I think the Chris Smith book referenced above is a very good one. I try to use moving lines, in conjunction with open strings, and drone notes on the root or fifth. It's easier to stay out of the way with mandolin than it is with guitar (the downside of this is that the mandolin can't drive the rhythm like a guitar or bouzouki can).

  I am also a firm believer in trying to blend with the aesthetic of a session, and trying to find a session that you feel comfortable and welcomed. It's a two-way street (maybe a three or four way street), and a session is supposed to be fun.

  Thinking of the mandolin as a little bouzouki can help. Open chord strumming works great. Good luck.

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## Tim2723

I think the most important thing to do is to respect the session you're in.  There are all kinds of positions on the matter, and it obviously changes from place to place, so you can get lots of well meaning advice on the Internet that might not apply to your session.  Remember that not all sessions are democracies where you can petition for change, nor are they necessarily free-speech forums where every voice is heard no matter what you have to say.  If your group doesn't want rhythym mandolin, don't do it. The one commonality to every session is that there is no shame in sitting out a tune and listening.

And so that there's no misunderstanding, I'm speaking as one who has wondered into an established session and been asked to sit and listen, not as one who demands what others should do in the session.

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## Alan Epstein

I like the idea that David mentions of of "trying to blend with the aesthetic of a session". 

David... Is there any way you can cover that as a topic at your upcomming March Mandolin workshop in Concord?

Thanks,

Alan

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## Jon Hall

I have never been to Ireland but a couple of my band mates have on several occasions and they have said that many sessions will allow a single rhythm player and a single bodhran. In which case everyone else plays the melody.

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## danb

> I think mandolin can be just as good a rhythm instrument as bouzouki or guitar, with the added advantage that it's easier to play the tunes on the mando, if you choose to play melody. It is in the same range as the fiddle, so I often try to play parts that focus on the lower two strings.


Exactly this. I stick mostly to the bottom three strings, and play softer than I would on a bouzouki, but it sounds wonderful when done right. Double-stops and not-very-busy strumming rhythms are what you are after

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## David Surette

> I like the idea that David mentions of of "trying to blend with the aesthetic of a session". 
> 
> David... Is there any way you can cover that as a topic at your upcomming March Mandolin workshop in Concord?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Alan


Well, Alan, there are two of us on staff that weekend (myself and Keith Murphy) with extensive experience in irish and Celtic music, so I think a lot of these idea could get covered. Plus our open-ended two hour "round table" on Sunday is an ideal forum for that kind of question. You should bring it up! Hope to see lots of you in March.

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## foldedpath

With regard to blending with the aesthetics of a session: I think it's important for OldTime and Bluegrass players to understand how contentious the whole idea of backup can be for session players, especially for those of the non-fretted instrument persuasion. 

For example... and not to be ragging on David here, who is an excellent player in this style of music, but... my Significant Other is a fiddler, and I saw a little puff of steam come out of her ears, when she read David's post about how "_the mandolin can't drive the rhythm like a guitar or bouzouki can_." 

It was the "driving the rhythm" part.  :Smile: 

Some sessions may work that way, but in others, a backer is expected to follow the intrinsic pulse of the melody line, and not lead or drive the rhythm. It's a subtle dance between the backer and the melody players. This is one more reason why it's difficult to integrate too many backers in a session. It takes two to tango, three's a crowd.... 

Again, not all sessions will be like that. There are regional variations, and sessions tend to break out into lower and higher tiers of player ability (the one I help run is firmly in the "intermediate/advancing beginner" category). Some sessions might prefer having a strong rhythm foundation laid down by one or more backers. Just try to be sensitive to which type of session you're joining, and it will work out fine.

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## John Flynn

I'm sure no one here had this intention, but there are multiple posters on this thread who are making Irish sessions seem mighty unfriendly and un-welcoming of beginners. There are multiple threads on the intolerance of some bluegrass and old-time jams, talking about things like "jam police" and "stink-eye," but some of the verbiage I have heard regarding Irish sessions makes that sound mild. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for people knowing the tunes, listening to the music and not muddying things up, IN ANY GENRE, but the idea that in Irish music all a beginning player should do is listen and drink beer for three years before they ever bring their instrument in seems elitist and exclusionary. Fortunately, I have found some sessions that are not like that. Unfortunately, I have found some that are. I have to say that I never noticed latter sounding more Irish than the former.

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## foldedpath

> I'm sure no one here had this intention, but there are multiple posters on this thread who are making Irish sessions seem mighty unfriendly and un-welcoming of beginners.


I hope I haven't given that impression. The session I'm involved with, is actually very welcoming to newcomers. We've been at this less than a year, so we're still trying to build repertoire and encourage new players to join in. On the other hand... yes, we're a little _more_ welcoming if you play a melody instrument, than if you play strictly backup. I don't think that's unusual for Irish sessions. 

If some of the posts sound defensive and un-welcoming about the relationship between melody players and backers in this music, there is usually a reason for it. I've seen startup sessions and other gatherings ruined by insensitive guitar and other backup instrument players. I mean _literally_ ruined, in the sense that good melody players never returned to that particular venue. In an environment like that, you're going to see people get a little defensive about preserving what they're trying to do.

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## Steve L

The phrase in the original post that jumped out at me, ( and I'm sure poor SincereCorgi must feel well and truely beaten up which was not anyone's intention I'm sure) was something to the effect of what can I play on the tunes I don't know.  This is a hot button in a lot of situations and I don't want this guy going to his first session and getting his head bitten off and never wanting to play this music again. 

I've been to sessions where the repertoire was pretty idiosyncratic and I hardly played all night.  I heard some good players and some obscure tunes I might not have known otherwise. And most sessions I've played in want someone who only knows a few tunes to be able to play them and we try to accomodate them by playing some pretty overplayed tunes at a very slow tempo so they get a taste. And I've also been to sessions where the level of playing was so high it was best for me to just sit there and listen.

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## David Surette

Just to clarify... "driving the rhythm" is not limited to any instrument, whether it be a melody player or a backer. In a good session with good players, everyone "plays rhythm". I simply was referring to the fact that the wee mandolin is often a bit quieter than the guitar or bouzouki, never mind the tenor banjo or accordion. 
  No one needs a significant fiddler in their house with ears steaming, and I'd hate to be the one seen as the cause of that!

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## michaelpthompson

> I'm sure no one here had this intention, but there are multiple posters on this thread who are making Irish sessions seem mighty unfriendly and un-welcoming of beginners....[T]he idea that in Irish music all a beginning player should do is listen and drink beer for three years before they ever bring their instrument in seems elitist and exclusionary. Fortunately, I have found some sessions that are not like that. Unfortunately, I have found some that are. I have to say that I never noticed latter sounding more Irish than the former.


Of course you're right John, and there are few places more welcoming than a good Irish session. Just be sure you know what you're getting into. Many sessions are indeed open and welcoming to a wide variety of styles, but some are actually closed to outsiders, and some are not officially closed, but operate as if they were. Three years is obviously an overstatement, but it does pay to learn the personality of a particular session before trying to join in, just to be sure you're adding to the music, not detracting.

We may make this point a little more strongly to those who play in BG, OT, or other "jam" sessions, just because their experience may not properly prepare them for an Irish seisún. This closed minded among the TRAD police will certainly discourage inappropriate session behavior, and even the experienced player may find that just noodling on chords might not fit in as well at an Irish session as they've experienced elsewhere.

Few Irish sessions actually ARE elitist and exclusionary, but some can feel that way if you don't know what to expect. :-)

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## Fretless

This may be of interest....   :Smile: 




Fretless

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## foldedpath

> No one needs a significant fiddler in their house with ears steaming, and I'd hate to be the one seen as the cause of that!


No problem David! That "significant fiddler" phrase went a long way, and you know how these fiddlers can be.... (ducking)

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## michaelpthompson

> This may be of interest....  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fretless


That's hilarious. And Oh, So True. :Mandosmiley:

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## foldedpath

At the risk of adding too many posts to this thread, I'm gonna say one more thing...

We often ignore another big difference between OldTime or Bluegrass jams, and Irish trad sessions. The Irish session tradition started (roughly) in the 1950's, hanging out in a corner of the local public house (or bar, in American slang). That's still a big part of the scene. All the open Irish sessions I know about here in our little corner of the USA, take place in establishments that serve alchohol. It's a relationship established with the bar owner -- you get a night to play music, hopefully with the sports TV turned off, and sometimes with free drinks from the bar, in return for providing free entertainment for the other patrons. 

It's not a paid gig (aside from the free drinks), and no sessioner really thinks of this as a "performance." But there is still an unspoken agreement that the music can't suck too badly, if you're being hosted by the establishment. That's why we don't do slow "learning tunes" at our session, even though it's billed as an intermediate/advancing beginner session. The place for that is private kitchen sessions at our homes, where we're not going to annoy the bar patrons with repeating the same tune 10 times. 

If there is an air of exclusion or elitism at a session, part of that might just be the unique relationship that Irish session leaders have with their commercial establishment hosts. The great thing about a pub-hosted session is that none of the members have to offer their own homes for the music jam, or serve their own refreshments. That's a thing worth preserving. Especially when the local bar has good beer on tap.
 :Wink:

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## Fstpicker

I've attended quite a few Irish sessions held locally, but in all honestly, mostly at one location. The session I attend regularly, and the most popular one in my book, is quite open and friendly to new members, as well as to established/experienced members. It doesn't seem to discourage newer players from becoming a part of the session, if they desire to, and are willing to have an open and learning (non-disruptive) attitude/frame of mind. The format is not particularly structured per say, but rather (and mostly) spontaneous in nature, as far as what songs are played next. The session lasts for at least 3 hours straight, and the time flies by rather quickly with only a few short breaks for bathroom and food and drinks. There are about 6-10 regular players who know Irish music fairly well, and anywhere from 3-6 players who know Irish music very well, and these latter ones tend to lead out in the sessions. Many of the latter group have even traveled on numerous occasions to Ireland, and have been able to develop a report with some of those sessions over the pond in the past several years. And they bring a wealth of experience and enthusiasm to the session. The purpose of the local session is to have an enjoyable time together (have fun!), and also to develop a further appreciation for Irish music, and to foster a learning environment where new tunes are able to be grasped over time. There are times when I do wish that sometimes they would have a session song list with the names and keys of each song posted ahead of time, but that is usually not the case. The leaders end up starting a tune, and the rest of us less-experienced players do our best to follow along, if we can, or we can choose to sit it out if we don't know the tune, which is usually the best common sense option for most. As a guitar rhythm player, I am usually able to figure out a good share of the tunes, as far as what the key is, and the primary chord and rhythm pattern that the tune has. However, they are also times when I just can't quite figure it out, or get it exactly right, and those are the times that I will either play very softly as to not be heard, or not play at all, out of mutual respect for the others. If there are at least one or two other more experienced Irish guitar players there, I will usually follow along with them as they play the chords, starting out very softly, and then only picking up volume if I feel very certain that I have the chords and the rhythm pattern correct. 

The other session that I have attended, and one that I went to only once, I found out rather quickly that it was not an "open" Irish session, even though it was advertised by the restaurant owners as such. No, they didn't kick me out at all, but I knew that they weren't too happy to have newbies in their midst. My wife, who is a bodhran player, was also told in no uncertain terms, that only one bodhran player was allowed to play at a time, and that she and the other two bodhran players had better decide who was going to play each time, and take turns playing accordingly, and that this was always the only way Irish sessions were conducted everywhere in the US, and abroad. Thankfully, I realize that this is not always the case everywhere in the US, and neither is it in Ireland all of the time. In fact, my very well-experienced Irish music friend (from the main session) has shared many videos with my wife and I of numerous Irish Pub sessions that he had attended and participated in personally over there, have revealed to us that this is simply not the case all of the time. By the way, he is an excellent Irish whistle player, as well as an experienced button player. Anyway, the attitude of the "leader" as she informed my wife of this, was well, let's say much less than cordial, but rather quite condescending, even though she (the self-appointed leader) was a very mediocre whistle player at best herself. After our good friend, who also is a bodhran player, was told at the next session in a rude and unfriendly manner that she was not welcome, she complained to the restaurant owners who she knew quite well, and they were frankly aghast and upset with the attitude being promoted by this individual, and ended up talking with the "leader" afterwards. From what I gather, this self-appointed leader, and perhaps even some of her "cronies", were more than likely not asked to come back in that restaurant again to hold their kind of session there.  

My story illustrates to you about the different attitudes of the leadership of these two vastly different sessions, leaders who truly set the mood and the tone of the sessions, and who were to a great extent responsible for their success, or as in the latter case, their probable demise. I know I will never go back to the latter place for another Irish session ever again, as I simply don't have the time to bother with those who have a less than friendly, unkind and/or rude attitude towards other players, who happen to be newbies at times. Come to think of it, weren't we all newbies at one time or another? Sometimes, some players seem to forget this "little" detail. 

The purpose of my posting is not directed at any one person here by any means, but simply a sharing of my own personal experience. In some cases, this may be more of a "beware" or "be careful", so that you can be cautious when picking a new session to attend, and also get an idea of how some sessions can be at times out there. Usually, the word of a fellow musician who knows you best, can give you a "head's up" as to whether the session you are seeking is indeed one that you will want to attend or not.

I do apologize for not addressing the original poster's question here however, and for instead getting off on a tangent and/or a soap box of sorts. 

As a (much less-experienced than guitar) mandolin player, I feel less likely to play the mandolin at an Irish session, at least not until I have much more experience under my belt. I would rather not make a fool of myself for starters. At least not until I have more confidence in my ability to play the melody of the tunes being chosen. But that is just me, and you may feel quite differently about it. 


Jeff

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## michaelpthompson

You make a really good point foldedpath. An Irish TRAD session does become a performance of sorts, which is only one of the things that distinguishes it from a jam.

There are slow, tune-learning sessions, often on an off night. We have a couple of those at a local folk music center as well. We don't usually do tunes more than once, but we go around the circle and let each person choose. Some choose a tune they want to learn, or one they're working on, and we do it at whatever speed they choose. It's a lot more laid back than your usual TRAD session.

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## michaelpthompson

Jeff, your post highlights a lot of the reasons the OP was warned not to just show up and start playing rhythm at an Irish session. Some would have no problem with that, but as you pointed out, there are a few where such behavior will get you a stern talking to, or maybe worse. It is amusing that these people think their way is the only "right" way to conduct a session, but there you are.

Bodhrán players probably suffer this more than others, just because of the bad rep some of the really bad players give the instrument. Some people say, "I can't play an instrument, I'll just whack away on this drum." But if you don't have at least some idea what you're doing, and if you don't already know the tunes, even that is not going to work properly. Rhythm guitarists get tarred with this brush too, and a rhythm mandolin player who just jumped right in would get a similar treatment.

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## Fstpicker

> You make a really good point foldedpath. An Irish TRAD session does become a performance of sorts, which is only one of the things that distinguishes it from a jam.
> 
> There are slow, tune-learning sessions, often on an off night. We have a couple of those at a local folk music center as well. We don't usually do tunes more than once, but we go around the circle and let each person choose. Some choose a tune they want to learn, or one they're working on, and we do it at whatever speed they choose. It's a lot more laid back than your usual TRAD session.


Excellent points, MT. Ideally, there should be some kind of "training" or "learning" session available locally for newbies to attend, where the tunes can be taught and/or caught, and definitely played slower than "normal". Handing out music sheets to learn off of, can be a great way to learn a tune, and a way to get everyone on the same page, so to speak. As you know, some tunes can be played many different ways, depending on who plays it, and/or where it is played. Learning it at least one way, will get you started in the right direction (hopefully), and then if you hear it played slightly different some place else, you will at least be able to recognize this, and realize also that there is not always a "right" way to play a tune, or at least not always only one way a tune is played, and certainly not everywhere. 

Learning tunes off music sheets taken home from a "learner's" session, can be a great way to learn the melody. However, playing at a session at some point helps to catapult one to a new level sooner, than just playing alone by oneself at home. 

At times, I have recorded songs played at a session on my Zoom H2, as simply a tool to help me learn a new tune when I get home, and certainly remember how it goes later on. And we have also had an mP3 of a new tune, at times, emailed to sessions attenders, so they can practice it at home, and be better prepared for the next learning session. As with any training/learning session, you will quite often have a mix of those really experienced players, some not so experienced, and then a continual in-flux of newbies who are coming into the session for the first time. 

And there are times when we have also focused on simply one new tune that we all are trying to learn, instead of trying to learn several new tunes all at once, which can be rather overwhelming to new players/learners. The K.I.S.S. method certainly can apply here..."*K*eep *I*t *S*imple, *S*tupid"!

Jeff

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## foldedpath

You think it's easy being a session leader? Read that last post about bodhran owners complaining to the venue, that three of them aren't allowed to play at the same time.

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## Fstpicker

I don't know if you directed your post at me or not, but I will say that I very much realize and understand that it is not easy being a leader!! I didn't mean to ever imply that it was, either. My very good friend, who is pretty much the leader of our main session, has expressed his concerns/burdens to me on more than one occasion. I really make an effort to thank him and encourage him that he is doing an excellent job, and also to let him know that he is very much appreciated and fully supported by all of us, and admired and respected for his role in the sessions. 

In my story, only one bodhran player complained to the owner about the abusive leader, and she is an individual who is not normally a complainer by any stretch, but this situation more than called for it. If you knew personally the situation as all of us did, I am betting that you would more than likely feel the same way that all of us did in this particular situation, which thankfully (and hopefully) is probably a rare exception out there. 

I rest my case... :Smile: 

Jeff

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## Steve L

I advised the OP that he might make a bad impression playing on tunes he doesn't know.  I never dreamed that would be controversial.

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## Fstpicker

> I advised the OP that he might make a bad impression playing on tunes he doesn't know.  I never dreamed that would be *controversial*.


Hmm...I guess I don't see it quite that way at all in this thread. I believe that the overall consensus has been pretty close to unanimous with the majority of posters here, that new players would be wise to only play the tunes that they know, for their own sake first of all, and certainly for the sake of the other players, out of simple common courtesy. 

I know that there are available as what is referred to as the 10 commandments for various jam sessions out there, and I believe that many of these rules could apply to some of the Irish sessions, although certainly not exclusively by any means, as the Irish sessions may have their own rules that are unique to them, and understandably so. 

Jeff

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## Bertram Henze

Re. knowing the tunes: this might need some explanation.

The harder challenge is not to get the rhythm but to get the chords. Other than in a BG jam, the chords are not fixed - they're improvised. To be able to do so, you have to practise how to come up with chords for a tune you know (and the ole I-IV-V won't get you far with modal scales). 

After a while, when knowing some 50+ tunes and being able to accompany them, you'll find certain recurring chord patterns you can reuse and, most important, get a feeling when to reuse them on the other 3950+ tunes you don't know. Recognizing these patterns by ear in real time and going with them is an ability slowly developing with the tunes you know, and once you got it, knowing tunes is no longer necessary.

I am talking years here, not just a few hours in preparation for your first session. Stay inconspicuous like Jane Goodall (a priceless similarity!) and learn what you can do without disturbing others. Disturbing includes things like
- asking melody players what chords you should play (many of them can't talk while playing)
- playing wrong chords
- worst of all: asking melody players what key the tune is in and then strum that single chord all the time because it seems to fit.

Look at the left hands of the guitar players there (only if they sound good), but beware! - they might have DADGAD tuning.

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## stevieguitarhodges

> ...can anybody suggest some strategies for playing tasteful, unobtrusive rhythm on the tunes I don't know? Do people _do_ that on mandolin in trad music?


Corgi,

I've played (and continue to play) guitar, mandolin, and octave mandolin in Irish sessions for at least 15 years, including sessions in Chicago, Augusta, Swannanoa, and Ireland. I've got a few opinions developed over the years..

Probably the most important thing any musician can do when playing with others is to listen. There is a place for mandolin in ITM, including accompaniment, but you have to be judicious. It is ensemble playing, pure and simple, not just a mindless jam. 

1.  Find a session where you're welcome. People get real finicky about ITM, and you don't want to waste your time with pettiness or turf defense. Beginner sessions are great. Start your own if you want.

2.  You don't have play all the time. Give it a rest if you don't know the tune. There's few things worse than someone who pounds it out clumsily and loudly on any instrument, and mandolin is no different. It's far better to underplay than overplay.

3.  In my book, a mandolin player can chop lightly on reels and polkas for color IF you're certain of the chords to help drive things along, but don't pull or push the rhythm or chop hard like you would a bluegrass tune. Keep a close eye on the guitar player, and try to play his chords if you can. He's louder and boomier. Also remember that you don't have to play all your strings. You can play simple fifths on modal tunes, for instance, with just two notes. Try strumming lightly just once a measure. 

4.  For jigs, you really want to play the melody if possible, but if you're sure of the chords, you can try a light strum or even arpeggiating the chords. But be discrete. The latter works best if the guitar player is sweeping the chords with a pick, but if he's arpeggiating too, then it can get too "tinkly." Listen to Tim O'Brien and Andy Irvine and other octave mandolin/bouzouki players for how they integrate mandolin into Irish music. You can steal a few of those ideas for mandolin. If it works, great. If it doesn't, sit the tune out. Go get another beer.

The politics of playing ITM is to me a separate issue from the musical taste, skills, and knowledge necessary to play ITM in an ensemble setting. People are going to have strong opinions about accompaniment, the role of certain instruments, the venues, choice of tunes, etc. You should pay some attention to that, but playing any style of music with other people requires taste, volume, dynamics, tonality, etc. particularly if you don't have written parts. Listen to Bob Wills' Texas Playboys for ideas on ensemble playing. Their arrangements of relatively simple songs are masterful for their delicate interlocking parts. Less is more!

If you're a sensitive player who is familiar with the tunes and can contribute tastefully and with passion when called for, you should be welcome anywhere.

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## Paul Kotapish

Lots of great comments and advice here.

It's worth noting that the issues discussed are not unique to Irish traditional music by any means, and any particular experience--good or bad--that someone relays in relation to an Irish session can be echoed by folks who have had similar experiences at bluegrass, old-time, swing, jazz, folk, and country sessions. 

In any idiom, a successful session is one in which the expectations of the players is aligned in terms of what the goals of the session are. This can range from feel-good gatherings of friends plunking along on old-time standards to the fierce cutting sessions of hard-core bop. 

An exact match of skill level among the players is far less important than a shared vision about what the musical expectations for a given session is going to be. 

There are plenty of seasoned professionals who are happy to play simple tunes at a moderate tempo and be inclusive of everyone who shows up, regardless of their experience. Conversely, there are some folks leading or attending sessions who have very specific aesthetic expectations. Those polar differences in expectations are entirely neutral. There's nothing wrong with either approach unless some kind of false advertising or misleading pretenses are resulting in disappointment, bruised feelings, or arguments.

Finally, there is no guarantee that a particular idiom will result in a particular kind of session. There are folks playing rarefied, highly techincal forms of old-time music that don't easily include newcomers and folks playing jazz that welcome the one-note-solo approach. Same with ITM. It's all about the expectations and goals of a particular musical setting.

The next time you have a weird time at a musical gathering, it probably has far less to do with the kind of music being played than it does with the expectations of the folks who started the session in the first place.

And, from the dead-horse flogging department, listen, listen, listen. There are plenty of ways to add rhythm mandolin to ITM sessions, but it has to be based on a good understanding of the melody and structure of the tune at hand.

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## EdSherry

I agree with Paul K. both (a) that there's a lot of good stuff here and (b) that the issues are not limited to ITM.

Getting back to the OP's question:

"can anybody suggest some strategies for playing tasteful, unobtrusive rhythm on the tunes I don't know? Do people do that on mandolin in trad music?"

Yes and no.  If you're totally unfamiliar with the tune [no idea of key, etc.], IMHO the best thing to do is to sit it out, record it if you can to practice at home, and if not to ask at the end of the set for the names of the tunes [don't be surprised if the players don't know!] and look them up.  

But after you've learned a bunch of tunes AND their chord progressions, you learn to recognize "common" chord progressions, even to tunes that you don't know all of the notes to.  In such contexts, I'll often "chord along" quietly (!!) on tunes I don't yet know, to try to get the progressions down in my head without distracting the other players.  That said, I've been at what I call "stump the band" sessions where someone pulls out a set of tunes that I've never heard before and that have unusual chord progressions that I can't quite figure out in 'real time.'

I tend to play a lot of "dyads" (two-note "chords" or "double-stops") with a moving contrapuntal line.  Andy Irvine and Alec Finn are masters of this.  

That said, I fully appreciate Bertram H's point that, in many ways, adding chords to trad tunes is a recent 'afterthought', and different people can readily disagree as to what "the chords to the tune" are.  If you're the only rhythm player, you have a lot more freedom than you do if you have to fit in with what another rhythm player is doing.  If there are others playing rhythm, often "less is better."

Like Paul K., I can't stress enough the need to listen to what's going on around you!

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## SincereCorgi

This is kinda what I had in mind:




I realize that this is a concert setting and not a 'session', but this strikes me as tasteful Irish mandolin accompaniment.

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## draino

> This is kinda what I had in mind:
> 
> I realize that this is a concert setting and not a 'session', but this strikes me as tasteful Irish mandolin accompaniment.


I found the playing in the first tune fairly tasteful -- the playing in the second tune seemed very heavy handed to me.  Regardless of the tastefulness, however, I can't imagine that one can develop these kinds of parts on the fly to a tune he does not know.  For example, the first tune in the set the mando is basically playing counterpoint to the melody - not possible unless you know the melody.

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## EdSherry

SincereCorgi -- That's Paul Kotapish playing mando with Kevin Burke/Open House.  

I was just at a show this week with "Curlew" (Paul K on guitar and mando, Bobbi Nikkles on fiddle and Maureen Brennan on harp) and got a front-row view of how Paul played rhythm mando and guitar (superbly, natch!)   [Paul was even kind enough to invite me up to sit in with them on guitar on a couple of tunes.  Thanks, Paul!]

There's a sense in which draino is right that this is not the sort of thing you can do well without KNOWING the tune, or at least knowing the chord progression.  

But after you've got a bunch of tunes and a WHOLE bunch of hours of playing under your belt, it's often possible even on a "new" tune (one you haven't heard before) to have a decent (though not infallible!) sense of where the chord progression is going, and to play along on rhythm even if you don't know all of the intricacies of the melody.   

That said, IMHO you DO have to keep an ear out for what we used to call "the funny chord" -- the part of the melody and/or the chord progression that strays away from what you "expect" it to do.  And there are some tunes that are so "funny" that, for the life of me, I can't figure them out 'on the fly' even after the second or third time through the tune.  

I recall a session at a friend's party last December where Kevin Carr played three tunes in a row that nobody in the room knew [a rare situation, given the quality and experence of the musicians present!] -- afterwards, we called it Kevin's "stump the band" set!

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## Bertram Henze

> I found the playing in the first tune fairly tasteful -- the playing in the second tune seemed very heavy handed to me.  Regardless of the tastefulness, however, I can't imagine that one can develop these kinds of parts on the fly to a tune he does not know.  For example, the first tune in the set the mando is basically playing counterpoint to the melody - not possible unless you know the melody.


+1
The accompaniment to the first tune - Mulqueen's Reel, I play that one myself - is indeed impossible to do without knowing the tune very well. Accompaniment to the second tune is about what a seasoned zouk player could improvize for an unknown tune after listening to the first time round. Both are things to shoot for, but not a first-timer.

Another thing - not every session melody player can get along well with someone playing a counter-melody, some tend to get derailed by that and will tell you so.

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## Gelsenbury

> I'm sure no one here had this intention, but there are multiple posters on this thread who are making Irish sessions seem mighty unfriendly and un-welcoming of beginners. There are multiple threads on the intolerance of some bluegrass and old-time jams, talking about things like "jam police" and "stink-eye," but some of the verbiage I have heard regarding Irish sessions makes that sound mild.


You know, I was thinking that when reading through the responses here and in the "session etiquette" thread. There isn't much here that actually makes me want to find a session and take part. Still interesting to read how the musical aims and corresponding customs of different musical traditions diverge!

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## Narayan Kersak

Yes, I have an approach to share, since I mainly play a lot of accompaniment, since I don't know 4 bazillion tunes.  Since moving here, I'm having to relearn a whole new set of tunes, which are much different from the last session I played at.  

On Jigs, be sure to strum D U D D U D.  A lot of folks try to just hit the 1st and 4th 8th note in the rhythm.  Don't do that.  Drive it.

Know your guitar chords and follow the guitarist.  

As the mandolin player, use different voicings to accentuate the tune.  Sometimes I'll play the D G and A around the 1-3 fret marker, then I'll take it up to around 7-10 marker to give some nice highs.

If you don't know the chords or are having trouble following the guitarist, then just drone on the key, keeping a steady rhythm to help drive.

Focus on some counter melodies if you can.  That's always fun, just don't over do it.

If you find you really have no idea what's going on.  Close your eyes, sit back, listen and enjoy until the next set.

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## Bertram Henze

> Originally Posted by John Flynn
> 
> 
> I'm sure no one here had this intention, but there are multiple posters on this thread who are making Irish sessions seem mighty unfriendly and un-welcoming of beginners. There are multiple threads on the intolerance of some bluegrass and old-time jams, talking about things like "jam police" and "stink-eye," but some of the verbiage I have heard regarding Irish sessions makes that sound mild.
> 
> 
> You know, I was thinking that when reading through the responses here and in the "session etiquette" thread. There isn't much here that actually makes me want to find a session and take part. Still interesting to read how the musical aims and corresponding customs of different musical traditions diverge!


One of the outstanding differences between ITM and BG is that in ITM all players play the melody together, putting things like sync and intonation under much more pressure than in a BG break. 
If you fail in your BG break, it is only your problem while the others may chop along undisturbed. If you fail in a set of reels (and are audible), the general orchestral unison impression of the session is fouled up. A session is in greater danger than a jam, therefore people tend to be more watchful there.

That does not mean that there is no other way in for a beginner than by just sitting and listening. I recommend to pick one tune they play (and which you like), ask the name of the tune (if they remember it) and practise that. Play it along with a recording, then play it along in the session the next time, and learn more tunes and so on. The important point is to work on just one tune at a time until you can play it well. Any session will honor you much more for playing one tune well than for playing 100 tunes badly. And none of those superheroes came out of their mother's womb with a fiddle in hand - they all learned from scratch just as you do.

Plus, there are sessions and sessions - from the slow, quiet, friendly and experimental beginner's session to the loud 140 bpm turbo-craic pro is a wide spectrum. Find your place, because there always is one. Irish music is so wonderful, it does not deserve to be played alone just because of unfriendly people.

P.S. every session should be interested in new people joining and developing, or else the same bunch would be playing week after week, getting older and older until digested Guinness fills their Foley katheter bags...

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## danb

> I realize that this is a concert setting and not a 'session', but this strikes me as tasteful Irish mandolin accompaniment.


One of my favorite sets from one of my favorite players in one of my favorite bands.

That's Kevin Burke on Fiddle, Paul Kotapish on Mandolin, and Mark Graham on the Harmonica. Sandy Silva providing the hoofbeat. That's "Open House", and y'all should really go out and pick up their disks.

That backing is absolutely kicking Paul, and that tune as well as your gorgeous counter part has spread all over the globe. We play it that way in London, just like we did in Milwaukee, Chicago, and San Francisco too.

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## JeffD

> Probably the most important thing any musician can do when playing with others is to listen. .


That can never be overstated. Not just in ITM but in OT, BG, blues, jazz, country, every ensemble group, jam, sing along, tune around. 


Irish was my first tune obsession. When I first started playing Irish music I only played melody. I did not know many chords, or how to back someone up, I just knew some tunes and wanted to play them with others. What on earth would one play if not the tune? Here I come, to play tunes with these people, and here they are playing a tune I know and here they are playing a tune I do not yet know. It was inconceivable that I would know every tune enough to play on every tune, and further I could not conceive of what anyone would expect of me except to sit out, if I didn't know a tune. It never struck me in the slightest as odd to sit out a tune or a set. Its like "here you drive, I don't know the way." It seemed very natural.

I remember the first time I got exhausted at a jam. It was a mark of real progress because I knew enough tunes that I played on every one for long enough to tire out. I sat the next one out just for a break, and it struck me as odd to sit out a tune I knew.

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## michaelpthompson

Good point Jeff. A lot of sessions could be improved if people learned that you don't have to play on every tune. And you really do learn a little bit more at every session, if you're paying attention.

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## Paul Kotapish

> One of my favorite sets from one of my favorite players in one of my favorite bands.
> 
> That's Kevin Burke on Fiddle, Paul Kotapish on Mandolin, and Mark Graham on the Harmonica. Sandy Silva providing the hoofbeat. That's "Open House", and y'all should really go out and pick up their disks.
> 
> That backing is absolutely kicking Paul, and that tune as well as your gorgeous counter part has spread all over the globe. We play it that way in London, just like we did in Milwaukee, Chicago, and San Francisco too.


Thanks for the kind words, Dan. I'm happy with the way that particular set worked out--heavy handed mid section and all--but I would never characterize what I do as traditional Irish music. I play a boatload of tunes that are from the Irish tradition and I have had the good fortune to play with a number of great musicians with impeccable cred in the Irish scene, but I know for a fact that I play with a strong American accent and that my tastes and proclivities are not to everyone's liking in any scene.

And I should make a disclaimer that Open House was never about being a trad Irish band, either. It would have made marketing a lot easier, but that wasn't our focus. Over the course of three CDs and a decade of touring, were seeking out the interesting nooks and crannies and occasional sparks that resulted from the intersection of four fairly strong players with pretty different musical styles. We were also interested in pushing some rather unusual sonic textures and palettes--fiddle with harmonica or clarinet backed by  mandolin or OM or guitar plus foot and body percussion. Again, it was not everyone's cup of tea, but I think we did some interesting stuff.

When we did pieces with the mandolin, I typically played off against Sandy's rhythm parts to provide a solid groove or counter-rhythm rather than contouring the shape of the accompaniment to the specifics of the tune. 

And while it is true that those parts were refined over time and during the recording process, they originally bubbled out of impromptu explorations in the course of sessions where I didn't necessarily know that tune all that well. That first riff, for example is typical of an approach I use all the time when backing up tunes: keeping a steady drone on an open string--typically the tonic or fifth--while improvising a little moving phrase on an adjacent string--above or below the drone. Even if you don't know a specific tune by heart, if you have a general familiarity with tunes like it, you can craft a credible backup part by just implying the changes rather than hammering them home.

As for the heavy-handed chop chords, I would agree that they would not be appropriate in many--or even most--typical sessions, but would also argue that in a roaring set they can work just fine if they are part of a larger rhythm groove, in synch with the other instruments, and are approriately synchopated rather than four-square off beats.

But I may be wrong about all of it, too.

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## Steve L

You can quibble about style but not quality.  That's really great playing, Paul.

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## Fretless

> Originally Posted by *draino* 
> For example, the first tune in the set the mando is basically playing counterpoint to the melody - not possible unless you know the melody.






> Originally Posted by *Bertram Henze*
> Another thing - not every session melody player can get along well with someone playing a counter-melody, some tend to get derailed by that and will tell you so.


Thank you for pointing that out! Two days ago, a member of our mid-level session dropped by the house to ask how his "style" of playing on octave mandolin was fitting in with the tunes we play. He's attended a local high-end session for a number of years and recently was taken aside and told not to play on tunes he doesn't know, which really upset him. It's a long story, but what applies to this thread is that he relies on playing what he thinks is counter-melody in order to play on every single tune, but what he's actually doing is arpeggiating random chords. It's pretty awful.

Bottom line: playing counter-melody is best left to those who can do it, and in a session setting it can be distracting to the melody players, even when done well. I'll never pull the welcome mat out from under my friend, but I sure wish I could FedEx him over to *Paul Kotapish* for a couple of weeks...  :Wink: 

Fretless

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## Gelsenbury

@Bertram:
Thanks, that's much more encouraging! Developing a strong piece to fit in with the session's regular set definitely makes sense. I've just started learning "My darling asleep", which should be a good fit in most places. 

A session in my region has helpfully posted its repertoire on the internet, and the members explicitly welcome beginners because they are looking for new blood. The problem now is to find out whether the session still exists ... and how to get to the more remote village pubs here in Kent without a car ...

Gruß ins Ruhrgebiet!  :Smile:

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## Bertram Henze

> I've just started learning "My darling asleep", which should be a good fit in most places.


Oh yes, that's a standard one. Goes well with "Tripping up the Stairs" in a set.  :Mandosmiley: 




> and how to get to the more remote village pubs here in Kent without a car ...


A car is advisable even in the densely populated area I live in. It means you cannot drink Guinness the whole night through (I usually switch to non-alcoholic Guinness, i.e. Coke), but it is less disappointing should the wrong people turn up, or none at all, which can never be ruled out with an open session.

Thanks for your perfectly German greeting  :Cool:

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## Gelsenbury

Well, I'm originally from the Ruhrpott too ... been in Kent for an almost scary 14 years and a bit, but still visit home often. So if you can recommend any places for good live music nearby, drop me a PM. 

I have a plan to go to one of the Kent sessions next weekend (if it still exists, which I'm inquiring about at the moment), just to listen for the time being ... and perhaps to start talking to people if they seem as welcoming as the website suggests.

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## mattdooman

This has been good info for me as I am looking into attending a session soon (not irish but dulcimer and other acoustic instruments). My question is What are 1 4 and 5 chords? Wow Im a newb.

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## shiloh

I've enjoyed this thread and picked up some good ideas.

The sad part about mandolin playing, for me, is that as much as my heart desires to, I'll never have the ability to play at "session tempo" regarding the melody. It's taken me years to finally admit that to myself. This is the only reason I've mostly abandoned learning Irish tunes and playing in a session. Our local sessions insist you play melody "if you're playing a melody instrument," so that was the door that ultimately shut regarding my participating. I'd love to play some sort of tasteful countermelody or drones or double stops but they will not allow it. So, I'm relegated to not playing, except at home alone for my own enjoyment.

Not to mention that I am currently dealing with hand injuries and playing the mandolin is difficult, even at a slow tempo.... :-(

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## Tim2723

> This has been good info for me as I am looking into attending a session soon (not irish but dulcimer and other acoustic instruments). My question is What are 1 4 and 5 chords? Wow Im a newb.


The numbers refer to the relationship of the chords.  They are the chords based on the first, fourth, and fifth notes of any given scale.  Simply count off the scale on your fingers.  For example, in the key of C you would count C,D,E,F,G,A,B.  The 1,4,5 chords are C, F, and G.  For the G scale count G,A,B,C,D,E,F#, and the chords are G,C,and D.  You might find a notation for the 6m (sixth minor) chord as well.  To get that simply find the sixth note of the scale and play that chord name in its minor form.  For the C scale it's the Am chord, for the G scale it's the Em chord, and so on.  Just remember to include sharps or flats as they occur in the scale of choice. For instance, in the key of F, you would count F,G,A,Bb,C,D,E and play the Bb chord, not the B natural as the number four chord.

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## michaelpthompson

> The sad part about mandolin playing, for me, is that as much as my heart desires to, I'll never have the ability to play at "session tempo" regarding the melody. It's taken me years to finally admit that to myself. This is the only reason I've mostly abandoned learning Irish tunes and playing in a session. Our local sessions insist you play melody "if you're playing a melody instrument," so that was the door that ultimately shut regarding my participating. I'd love to play some sort of tasteful countermelody or drones or double stops but they will not allow it. So, I'm relegated to not playing, except at home alone for my own enjoyment.


Find a better session, or start your own. I host one at a local music school once a month, where we have all sorts of different musicians, breaking out of the mold of the traditional Irish session. Some sessions are more open than others. If you can't find one that's open to your music, get a friend or two and start your own. It only takes two to begin, if at least one of you can play melody. Then word starts to spread and the fun really begins.

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## shiloh

Hi Celtic Bard,
Thank you for your kindness. Actually, I've thought about trying to start one myself. I do have friends who might be willing to play some. They mostly play other genres, but I'm sure they'd be open to learning more Irish tunes. You're right - if I had only one or two others to play with, it would be a whole lot more interesting - and fun!

Jill

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## John Flynn

Jill

I'm in the same spot you are with trad...only on the other end of the country! I was starting to despair that I could ever play at sessions. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I was lucky enough to find a session that publishes its sets, tunes and arrangements. This is really helpful, both in learning the melodies, but also in playing rhythm on the tunes I haven't yet gotten the melody up to speed on. My strategy has been to play along on rhythm on mandolin on most tunes, but then get up to speed on melody, one tune at a time, on GDAE tenor banjo. This group has been very accepting of that.

A bonus with this session group has been that I've developed a friendship with a couple of the players and we occasionally have smaller, slower sessions at each others' houses from time to time. BTW, the guy who organizes our sessions strongly recommends Band-in-a-Box for getting trad tunes up to speed. I haven't tried it yet, but I plan to.

I've found that I can get up to speed on any of these tunes with enough practice, but it just takes longer than I'm used to. When I was playing old-time, I could get two or three tunes a week up to jam speed. With trad, it's tougher going. But I've determined not to give up on it. I just take it one tune at a time. Thinking about the whole tradition at once is too overwhelming.

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## Dagger Gordon

'A bonus with this session group has been that I've developed a friendship with a couple of the players '

That's a big part of it, or should be.

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## shiloh

"I just take it one tune at a time. Thinking about the whole tradition at once is too overwhelming."

Hi John Flynn,
Thank you so much! Your words are inspiring. Just curious - so, do you also work on the tunes (melody) on the mandolin? You mentioned tenor banjo. I've considered tenor banjo, so wondering your thoughts on melody on the banjo vs. mandolin, and why one over the other? Have you played rhythm on the banjo (such as partial chords, etc.)? I bet that would REALLY be discouraged around here!

I've tried to learn several tunes simultaneously. I'm thinking that might be my first mistake. Not that that's right or wrong, but I think I never quite get any of the tunes under my fingers b/c I'm working on too many. Thus I get discouraged, and none of the tunes get learned up to tempo.

One of my favorite ITM mando players is Marla Fibish. I would love to play like Marla (band is Three Mile Stone. LOVE their CD; produced by John Doyle). Having said that, I do not have her innate ability, and she has been playing for many, many years! Marla is dedicated to the music like no one else I know. And no doubt, she sat in hundreds of sessions, listening, and learning one tune at a time.
Jill
San Diego
p.s. I used to live in Pittsburgh, in Moon, near the airport.

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## John Flynn

Jill

Good questions. I occasionally practice melodies on the mandolin, because I have a couple of travel/beater mandolins and they are a lot more portable than the banjo, so it's easier to take them places I might get in some practice time. But I rarely try to play melody on the mandolin at sessions. My mandolin is loud for a wooden instrument but it just doesn't have enough single-note volume for me to even hear myself play at sessions, much less have anyone else hear me! It can keep up on rhythm, though. 

The advantage of tenor banjo for melody is two-fold. First, it has the single-note volume needed for a big session. Second, it is a more accepted trad instrument. I won't even open  up the whole discussion of "what's traditional, what's not, and to what degree." But simply put, no one seems to argue whether or not a tenor banjo fits at an Irish session. I don't play much rhythm on it though. I've tried it and I just don't think 17 fret tenor banjos sound that good chording. Hard to describe, but it's kind of a "grating" tone.  I limit my rhythm to occasional double stops and some cross picking on airs. 

The dixieland players who mostly play chords do it on 21 fret "plectrum" instruments. I think the longer scale allows for more precise intonation and more sustain. But a 21 fret would be hard to play melody on. There are 19 fret tenor banjos that are popular in trad, but I'm not sure how well they work on rhythm.

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## Bertram Henze

> The advantage of tenor banjo for melody is two-fold. First, it has the single-note volume needed for a big session. Second, it is a more accepted trad instrument. I won't even open  up the whole discussion of "what's traditional, what's not, and to what degree." But simply put, no one seems to argue whether or not a tenor banjo fits at an Irish session. I don't play much rhythm on it though. I've tried it and I just don't think 17 fret tenor banjos sound that good chording. Hard to describe, but it's kind of a "grating" tone.  I limit my rhythm to occasional double stops and some cross picking on airs. 
> 
> The dixieland players who mostly play chords do it on 21 fret "plectrum" instruments. I think the longer scale allows for more precise intonation and more sustain. But a 21 fret would be hard to play melody on. There are 19 fret tenor banjos that are popular in trad, but I'm not sure how well they work on rhythm.


I suspect that while not all Irish musicians were happy with the TB on its first appearance, they eventually got used to it - which is, yes, kind of acceptance. 
I think the problem with chording is indeed the lack of sustain, making it an attempt to beat a drum with a bunch of sticks at once.
I used to play melody on a 21-fret, tuned CGDA. I had no problem doing the wide jumps because of the light touch of it - hardly any fretting force required. It was impossible, however, to transfer that technique to my OM later. 

I met a group of jazz musicians at a party once, and they suggested a jam; frightened of being caught with the right instrument in the wrong genre, I said "but I can't play dixieland" and almost got beaten for implying dixieland was jazz...  :Chicken:

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## DougC

So often it is said that one 'should listen' to the music. What exactly should one listen for regarding rhythm?

Also Jill have you seen Julie Lyonn-Liberman's advice about injuries on D'Addario's website? http://www.thelessonroom.com/LessonR...6&mediaid=8974 

What we need is direct electronic access to the brain as in The Matrix. "Ah, now I know how to fly a helicopter in less than a minute".

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## John Flynn

"But I am amazed at the arrogance or let's say just hutzpah of some who think they can do anything with someone's musical gathering." - Doug C.

Well, that brings up another interesting question. Who is the "someone" you're talking about? In other words, who "owns" a musical gathering? If it's at your house, then obviously you own it, no question. If it's an invitation-only event, no matter where it is, I would go so far as to say the inviter probably owns it. But what about a published, open jam or session? It would seem to me the owner of the venue rightfully "owns" the session, for instance, the owner of the bar where the session is held. I mean, the venue owner is the only one in the equation who can cancel or reschedule it, so that makes sense.

I'm amazed at the chutzpah of some people who act like a musical gathering is "theirs" and therefore they can make the rules, when the venue owner does not care, for instance, if you have one rhythm instrument or eight. So then it's not an issue of it being "someone's musical event." It has become an issue of someone trying to impose their idea of musical tradition on someone else. Interestingly, I've never seen problems with the "Trad police" at invitation-only events or events a people's houses. I have only seen them at open sessions where the venue owner clearly did not care one way or another. In my personal experience, it has not always been the organizer of the session or even one of the longest-tenured members who sets themselves up as the "Trad police." It is the just the person with the strongest personality.

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## EdSherry

John F -- I agree that there is often an issue as to "whose session it is."  I've seen situations where some overly-assertive 'regular' who does not represent the consensus of the venue and/or the session regulars usurps the role of the "trad police" and contends that a newcomer should not do something, tending to turn the session into an "insider's" session to the detriment of opening the music up to interested musicians.  Conversely, I've been to a lot of sessions where a newbie to a 'public' session contends [in effect] "they say it's an 'open' session, therefore there's nobody [other than the landlord] who is formally in charge here, and the landlord isn't complaining about what I'm doing, therefore my opinion is just as good as anyone else's, therefore I'm gonna do what I want to do."  


I've been to way too many sessions where the good players, frustrated at the "I'm just as entitled to my opinion as you are / I'm just as entitled to play here as you are" attitude of some clueless newbie, simply stop coming (figuring 'I've got better things to do with my time'), thereby lelading to a "quality death spiral" (the best players stop coming, leading to the average quality falling, leading the next-best tier of players to decide that it isn't worth their time to come, leading to a further reduction in quality, and so on).  


It's unfortunately very difficult to walk the fine line to walk between these two positions.   The venue's owner "may not care" (and may well not be qualified to evaluate the issue) on a case-by-case basis, but the venue's owner clearly DOES care if the session succeeds or fails.   

I wish I had a "magic bullet" to resolve these sorts of issues.  Unfortunately, I'm not aware of one.  The most self-assertive of the 'incumbent' players [which need not by any means be the best players!] often contend (without justification) that it's "their session."  In a public setting, it clearly isn't (as you note, there is a sense in which the venue's owner is the ultimate decision-maker); but there's a sense in which, without their support, the session can degenerate into a "lowest common denominator" session (and possibly die off) if newcomers aren't aware of the standards that "the regulars" aspire to.

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## foldedpath

> So often it is said that one 'should listen' to the music. What exactly should one listen for regarding rhythm?


Listen to the way the rhythm is implicit in the melody line, even when there is no accompaniment at all.... just a gaggle of fiddles, flutes, and other melody instruments with nary a guitar in sight. That's where the rhythm is, and it doesn't depend on a "rhythm section." Listen for the pulse in the fiddler's bow, and the flute player's phrasing of breath, and the pulse of the air in the bellows of a concertina or box player.

It's one of the main differences between Irish trad and American music styles, where the melody leans more on a foundation established by rhythm instrument players. One of the hardest things for an OldTime or Bluegrass rhythm player to understand, in my experience, is the way you don't "lead" the rhythm in Irish trad, you _follow_ the rhythm of the melody players. And you do it in a way that doesn't distract what they're going for, rhythmically.

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## John Flynn

Ed 

I agree completely. The interesting thing is everything you said applies just as well to bluegrass, old-time and any other kind of "participation music." It is not trad specific as far as I can tell. It really boils down to common courtesy and some idea of common practice at a given session. 

It has just been my experience (and others will disagree) that it is more common for newcomers to get run off by the lack of a welcoming attitude than experienced players being forced to quit because of obnoxious newbies. Also, I've rarely (although it does happen) seen a newbie who would not take polite direction from a more experienced player. Newbies tend to be "obnoxious" only because they are trying too hard and no one is giving them helpful suggestions.

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## foldedpath

> "But I am amazed at the arrogance or let's say just hutzpah of some who think they can do anything with someone's musical gathering." - Doug C.
> 
> Well, that brings up another interesting question. Who is the "someone" you're talking about? In other words, who "owns" a musical gathering? If it's at your house, then obviously you own it, no question. If it's an invitation-only event, no matter where it is, I would go so far as to say the inviter probably owns it. But what about a published, open jam or session? It would seem to me the owner of the venue rightfully "owns" the session, for instance, the owner of the bar where the session is held. I mean, the venue owner is the only one in the equation who can cancel or reschedule it, so that makes sense.


Not all Irish sessions are held in pubs, and yes, some of the best are kitchen sessions in private homes. But a pub session in a commercial establishment often has a leader, or groups of "alpha" players who keep things running smoothly, so it doesn't turn into an open mic night for any drunk who wants to sing a song. The bar owner doesn't want to get involved in this. It's just free entertainment... or at most, free drinks and meals for the players. It's the sessions hosts who keep things running smoothly... sending out reminders on the email list, notifying of weather or holiday cancellations, sometimes maintaining a web site for the session, and so on. 

There are about four Irish or "Celtic" sesssions within an hours' drive from where I live, on the Olympic Peninsula side of Puget Sound. All are in bars, or combined bar/restaurants. Three of those sessions are fairly high level, one is more intermediate and a bit more accessible to newbies. All have session leaders who helped get the session rolling, and who act as liasons with the venue owner. 

I help host that intermediate session, and we've been at it for less than a year. We have an arrangement with the bar owner that we're going to keep it an Irish trad session. That means, among other things, one guitar player at a time. We're trying to be friendly to newcomers, while also trying not to let it turn into a cowboy song circle. There are plenty of open mics, OldTime jams, and folk song circles in the area for the hordes of strummers around here, and very few Irish trad sessions like this. 

From what I've learned in the last several years hanging out around trad players, it seems the best Irish sessions happen when someone is making an effort to keep it focused. It doesn't have to be an alpha leader... just a core group who have a defined goal. When there is a lack of focus or leadership, it falls apart, or turns into something else.




> Conversely, I've been to a lot of sessions where a newbie to a 'public' session contends [in effect] "they say it's an 'open' session, therefore there's nobody [other than the landlord] who is formally in charge here, and the landlord isn't complaining about what I'm doing, therefore my opinion is just as good as anyone else's, therefore I'm gonna do what I want to do."


Yep, I've seen that happen too, and it's why we made the effort to try getting this new session established. It can be a difficult balancing act at times, but we have the full support of the bar owner because he likes how we play.... even if it's kinda rough, on some nights.
 :Wink:

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## foldedpath

> It is not trad specific as far as I can tell. It really boils down to common courtesy and some idea of common practice at a given session.


Some idea of common practice, yes. The problems occur when people want to join Irish trad sessions from other traditions, without understanding the common practice people are shooting for, in the session.




> It has just been my experience (and others will disagree) that it is more common for newcomers to get run off by the lack of a welcoming attitude than experienced players being forced to quit because of obnoxious newbies.


Well, I've seen it often enough around here. Three guitar players, all playing at once, can _kill_ an Irish session. That doesn't happen at a Bluegrass or OldTime jam. It's the difference in the nature of the music.

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## Bertram Henze

> What we need is direct electronic access to the brain as in The Matrix. "Ah, now I know how to fly a helicopter in less than a minute".


It has its downside, too - imagine sitting in a session and suddenly the player next to you shifts shape and becomes Bill Monroe!  :Crying: 




> Newbies tend to be "obnoxious" only because they are trying too hard and no one is giving them helpful suggestions.


Really obnoxious people are only those who keep trying too hard (to do the wrong thing) despite everybody giving them helpful suggestions. Those are the only ones in our sessions who get silently expelled with the magic of icy unfriendliness - and even that is not the intentional product of ill will but the automatic effect of our not being able to join with the wrong noise. They can kill a session and leave its dead body behind, but when they're gone it will recover and live again.

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## Randi Gormley

We occasionally field two or three guitars and as many as three bodhrans on some sessions; one of the guitars has been playing Irish for eight years (including workshops with the pros) and plays softly regardless; one finger-picks or strums classic guitar chords and drives me/us nuts, but he also plays a very good bodhran so we deal. Although we're a very welcoming session (we start out beginner and morph after 10 p.m.), most of the guitar players who drift in don't usually come more than once or twice, oddly enough. But what seems to kill a session faster than the occasional rock guitarist who seems confused and bemused by us, is the guy who keeps saying, after every tune we play, 'the rhythm is all wrong, you have to play with more lift! here ...' and pulls out his iPhone and brings up the chieftains or some other professional group so we can hear how it's supposed to be played. Helpful the first five or six times, but it's at the point now where every time he does this, it kills the whole feel of the session and expends all the good will we've built up by playing. He missed last week's session and we had a great time. He was there last night, and we had one of the worst sessions we've had in a long time. Come 10 p.m. and he just talked on and on about how bad we still are ... but he's been part of the group for five years, you can't just freeze him out (for one thing, he doesn't get hints).

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## Bertram Henze

> ...and pulls out his iPhone and brings up the chieftains or some other professional group so we can hear how it's supposed to be played... ...you can't just freeze him out (for one thing, he doesn't get hints).


Oh, a musical suicide bomber.
Does he actually play an instrument? If yes, does his playing have that "lift"? 
I'd ask him to "play for us on your fiddle how it's supposed to sound". If that doesn't help, there's nothing but snatching his iPhone and promising to give it back after the session (unless, of course, it has inadvertently fallen into a glass of Guinness  :Grin: ). Another way would be some service on the web that sends him one text message per minute saying "shut up"; at least a hint he'd get technically.

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## Steve L

I was thinking about this thread this past Sunday.  We had a fellow turn up at our session, a whistle player from Britain.  He was passing through on business and heard about our session somehow and came down to play.  He didn't know a soul and in about 10 minutes he had 8 strangers in a foreign country treating him like an old friend.  He played pretty good, was a really nice guy who clearly had understood the dynamics of sessions for years, sat out the tunes he didn't know and shared tunes, jokes and stories with us for 3 hours.  He's had this experience all over the world playing Irish music.  

This is what's possible if you take the time to know what you're doing.  If he'd come in noodling over things he didn't play or demanding to know by whose authority the session was being run, he would have had a markedly different experience and so would myself and my session mates.

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## Paul Kotapish

As I used to tell my students, *"Learn a chord, start a band."* 

I encourage anyone who finds the session scene frustrating to host a musical gathering with a few like-minded souls of roughly comparable ability, start a "band," and actually work on the music in a mindful way rather than just bashing your way through a whole roster of tunes. 

It isn't important whether you actually want to do formal gigs or not--opportunities will come you way as you get your music together. The main thing is to have a positive musical experience where you feel like you are growing and learning on a regular basis.

You have to be at any particular musical level to start a "band." What's important is the commitment. 

And to tie it back to the original post, you'll have ample opportunity to work out your rhythm and melody parts in the context of a band practice in a way that would never happen at a pub session.

There's an important place for solo woodshedding and informal session playing, but for 40-some years now it's been my experience that I learn more, have more fun, and am prompted to work on my music more when I am committed to a focused musical project.

I used to attend seisuns/sessions on a regular basis--often several times a week--years ago, but at some point I realized that what I really like to do is work on music in a more concentrated manner, and with folks who share roughly the same vision I do for what the music should sound like. These days, whatever musical energy I have goes into playing in the context of bands, and the rehearsals are usually as interesting and fun for me as the performances.

I still like playing impromptu music with players of all levels, and on a good night it can be an incredible high, but I would find it incredibly frustrating if session playing were my primary musical outlet--for all the reasons enumerated in the many articulate posts above.

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## DougC

Thank you Paul. I could not figure why I dropped out of leading a Slow Sessiun. I was not burned out and I grew tired of telling folks that I was tired of coming home late. I did do a lot of sessiuns in 12 years. I even put a book together called the St. Paul / O'Gara's (Pub) Slow Sessiun tune book. You hit on the issue: a need for more focused, project / gig oriented work! I miss the social aspect of playing at the pub but refining a tune set is really what I want to do.

By the way; we did exactly as you suggest. We started teaching ourselves Irish music, about six friends. The group grew so fast we needed a public place. We did a coffee house for a while and then O'Gara's pub. I think it really worked because the 'core' group were all at the same skill level and we helped orient newcomers to the routine. We were encouraged by the regular session players who came late in the evening. Marty McHugh and Tom Dahill and others really became our teachers and beloved friends. This all happened around 1992 -2004. We really had something special and I think it is because we started together.

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## John Flynn

Paul:

Thanks for you post. I think your advice is very good. I will do that, and continue with the one beginner-friendly session I've found. 

Just for the record, I may have asked challenging questions on this thread because they were on my mind and this is a discussion board, but I have never challenged a session leader, never openly questioned the apparent rules of a session, never not responded to a hint to back off, either expressed, or implied by a "look," and never, as far as I know, disrupted a session in any way.

I have been put off by the attitude toward beginners at several sessions and I am not just talking towards me. I have seen some outrageous behavior, even toward some really good musicians, but I won't go into story-telling. Each time, I either quietly pack up early and/or just not come back. My personal experience has been that trad sessions tend to be the least welcoming of any of the kinds of participation music I've been involved with and I'm not talking the complexity of the music, I'm talking the attitude of the players. 

Paul, I think your advice is the best response.

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## EdSherry

What Paul said.  That said, I still enjoy sessions, which offer an experience different from a "band rehearsal" experience.

John F -- I fully agree that there is sometimes a very bad attitude of some "incumbent" players toward newcomers.  Sometimes the newcomer understands the rationale, sometimes not.  [I'm thinking in particular of the "one bodhran/guitar per session" rule that some sessions have.  It can be frustrating to someone who wants to join in and have fun to be told "you'll have to wait your turn" and to play on only one tune set per hour.  On the other hand, I fully understand the reasoning that leads some sessions to adopt such a rule, as without it the rhythm section can turn into a continuous rat-a-tat-a-tat.  Polyrhythms are great, but they have to be worked at, or the result is cacophony!] 

In an ideal world, there would be plenty of good-quality local sessions at all levels of experience/expertise in every geographic area, and every player would gravitate to the session(s) that best suit them.  I'm fortunate to live in the SF Bay Area where there's quite a number of good sessions.  

Unfortunately, there are people who believe they are better than others know they are, and they see nothing wrong in playing along when they should be sitting out and listening.  Some of them get the message; some seem oblivious.  

Others want to make the music over in the image of what they think it should sound like, rather than acknowledging that it's a social scene as well as a music scene.  I've been at sessions where people give you "the look" for having the temerity to play a Scottish tune, or a Nova Scotia tune, or ....  One local player ONLY wants to play jigs, and acts disgusted if you start a hornpipe or a strathspey.  Fortunately, others are more forgiving.

Many bluegrass players I know have simply stopped attending "open jams," preferring to form a band and work up material rather than deal with the hordes of beginners who want (not surprisingly) to join in the fun.  Other sessions I know have become "by invitation only" to keep up the quality to the point where good players want to attend.

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## Bertram Henze

> I still like playing impromptu music with players of all levels, and on a good night it can be an incredible high, but I would find it incredibly frustrating if session playing were my primary musical outlet--for all the reasons enumerated in the many articulate posts above.


Most session players I know have a second life as band players (in fact, it is less often called a band today, instead they call it a "project") and so have I. All of us tend to carry the more robust arrangements from these projects into the sessions to present them to others and to let others participate (that's why the arrangements should be robust). 

From the other end of the spectrum, session players who play together often tend to shape tunesets until they almost become band numbers, thus forming proto-bands within the session.

There is a broad fuzzy gray area between an open session and a band rehearsal. It is good for a newcomer to detect early exactly what he has stumbled into.

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## epicentre

Most established IT groups have "slow jams", where playing at all levels is encouraged.  The accomplished players soft pedal it, and help newcomers.    GO to slow jams, learn to play the melody.  If you go to a regular jam, and don't know the tune, back off and don't play.  It's fun to listen.  No one will chuck you because you listen.  

If you want to chop chord in an IT jam, you might be asked to leave.   If you want to finger pick background blues guitar..........likewise.  

People aren't being snotty; they're playing the music the way it's supposed to be played.  Learn or leave.

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## DougC

I want to know if the players on this discussion that have expressed 'challenging questions' or frustrations with sessiuns understand what we are trying to say.

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## John Flynn

> I want to know if the players on this discussion that have expressed 'challenging questions' or frustrations with sessiuns understand what we are trying to say.


I for one feel I completely understand what you are trying to say. I really would not want sessions to degenerate into something that is not really Trad and I know that's what you are trying to prevent. Good on you for that.

However, I'd like to know if the "Trad Police" side of the argument truly understands and appreciates what the other side of the argument is trying to say. And by "understand and appreciate" I mean NOT taking the position that "We who are good at this have some moral superiority over those who aren't." That's not understanding and appreciating. That's "I won, you lost." And I think what we are saying is that if you have an "open session, beginner's welcome" what does that mean? Beginners are welcome to just sit and listen for...years? I don't think that's a reasonable answer. And I've seen very good sessions that do take beginners in and guide them without losing the character of the music. So it can be done. There is a happy medium and it is much more in the power of session leaders to make that happen than the newbies, because the session leaders have the power. The newbies have none.

BTW, my observation is that it is not just newbies who mess up sessions. I went to a session once that had a piper who showed up every week and played every tune, but was just awful. No timing, bad intonation, way too loud, you name it, but they tolerated him because it seems the pipes always get some leeway and also he helped found the session and had been there for years. I never heard a newbie do as much damage to Trad as this guy did! Yet this session was not newbie-friendly at all.

Now if the session just doesn't want newbies, it shouldn't be an open session. That's fine too. But if you want the fellowship that participation music provides, which should be as big a part of the experience as the music itself, it seems you have to be open to it. Otherwise, as Bertram pointed out, you're a band, not a session.

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## foldedpath

> However, I'd like to know if the "Trad Police" side of the argument truly understands and appreciates what the other side of the argument is trying to say. And by "understand and appreciate" I mean NOT taking the position that "We who are good at this have some moral superiority over those who aren't." That's not understanding and appreciating. That's "I won, you lost." And I think what we are saying is that if you have an "open session, beginner's welcome" what does that mean? Beginners are welcome to just sit and listen for...years? I don't think that's a reasonable answer.


If a session advertises itself as "beginners welcome" then yes, the participants should be doing everything they can to extend that welcome, _while still maintaining the focus of the music_. It doesn't mean that every session can accommodate any number of guitar players, mandolin chord bashers, and bodhran players who want to participate. Some sessions may operate that way, but many will not. There is a far better chance of being welcomed with open arms if you're playing a melody instrument, as in Steve's example of the visiting whistle player. Or a mandolin player willing to learn the tunes, which gets back to questions raised in the first post in this thread. 

Irish sessions get a bad rap because they look so similar to an OldTime jam, from the outside. They attract people with attitudes about "acceptance" based on OldTime, Bluegrass, or Folk jams, who would never dream of carrying those same expectations into a trad jazz jam, or a Choro session, or a gathering of the local chamber music society. 

Players at Irish sessions can sometimes be a little stand-offish, but they also include some of the warmest and most welcoming people I've met, as long as you're willing to take the session on its own terms, and not try to turn it into something else.




> Now if the session just doesn't want newbies, it shouldn't be an open session. That's fine too. But if you want the fellowship that participation music provides, which should be as big a part of the experience as the music itself, it seems you have to be open to it. Otherwise, as Bertram pointed out, you're a band, not a session.


I think you're mixing up the concept of a beginner-friendly session, and an "open" session. Those are not the same thing. 

An open session just means that it's open to anyone who can play at the general level of the existing session. Or at least, hang in there on the outskirts of the core group as a learning, advancing player who isn't going to disrupt the main session. It's not a guarantee that absolute beginners will be able to participate, unless the session is explicitly advertised that way. 

Sessions for absolute beginners aren't a good fit for the typical pub environment anyway (IMO), because most bar owners and patrons don't really want to hear a classroom teaching session with slow repetition of tunes. Remember, the venue owner sees this as free entertainment. I once saw a coffee shop owner actually ask the participants to stop playing, when a casual session started to degenerate into a slow teaching session. Unless the owner of the venue is accommodating, this is the kind of thing that's best done in private homes and workshops. I've done that myself... offering our home for folks to work on tunes between sessions at the pub. Lately we've been doing that once or twice a month.

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## JeffD

Many of the issues brought up in this thread are not exclusive to Irish or any other particular genre of music. A session, or jam in any genre, is a conversation. You would NEVER go up to a group of people at a conference say, having a spirited conversation, and worm your way in and change the subject or speak in a language foreign to the group. No matter how much you wanted to be part of the group you would hang out, listen a lot, see if its a discussion of a subject about which you are knowleadgable enough to contribute. It is exactly like that. Its not a matter of avoiding stink eye, or dictatorial jam leaders, or objecting to a "learn or leave" feeling - its a conversation, and you are welcome to fit in and contribute to the pre-existing conversation, or to listen, or to go elsewhere and start your own conversation. Its not harsh when described that way, and it shouldn't feel harsh in a musical context.

I am, by nature and by decision, very very welcoming and accomodating to newcomers. If you make even a modest attempt to learn and figure it out I will encourage you and pump sunshine your way. In fact my style of correcting inappropriate behavior is to encourage what is right about it, and let the rest drop of its own weight. (Not the best strategy sometimes, I know.)

That being said I have never understood the idea, regardless of the type of music, that someone thinks they can participate meaningfully without knowing the tunes. This has come up in several threads, (perhaps not as much in this one as in others, and not the OPs point either): how can I take a break, or chord backup, or play with musicians, without having to actually learn the tunes? If that were possible, what on earth would be the point of learning the tunes at all? I don't mean it to sound harsh, but on what planet can you meaningfully contribute to something without knowing about it?

I understand the desire, but I don't get the expectation that it could be, or especially the feeling of being put out when it becomes evident that there isn't a ready substitute for knowing what you are doing.

If I have offended I am sorry; I probably need to take a pill or something.

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## JeffD

Of course there is a continuum between absolute beginner and seasoned veteran. And I don't mean that there are no seats available in between. But the more you know the tune the more your participation will be relevant, valuable, contributory, and appreciated. And there are lots of folks to help you get along the way. Help you in all kinds of wonderful ways, up to and including meeting with you after the jam and teaching you a particular tune. 

There are appropriate ways of limited contribution when there is limited facility with a particular tune, and when seen as an interim measure on the path to mastery it can be acceptable at many (but perhaps not all) jams.

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## JeffD

I guess I am going to be hit with a lot of shrapnel, and perhaps not undeservedly. But it just seems so glaringly obvious it needed to be said. Again, I apologize if I have gotten anyone's nose out of joint.

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## Steve L

A phrase that seemed to repeat itself in the thread was "...that can take years".  That's largely up to the player, but I know it took me years be able to play with people for whom it had taken years to attain the abilities they posessed.  That's just the price of admission.  I played guitar professionally for many years before I started playing this music and that was as much a hindrance as a help in many ways. You start with a tune, then another, then a set. If you think you're wasting your time "just listening" and getting to know the tunes and the players and absorbing the craic, well you might be right.  

It's also been suggested that no one gives newbies helpful suggestions.  Whether you like it or not, telling someone to learn the tunes, not playing on tunes you don't know, recording the sets played at your local so you can work on those, not crowding the backer, easing your way in and taking your time are in fact helpful suggestions. There might be slow sessions in the area, some players in the session might teach, there are tunebooks, DVDs, Youtube, websites. Resources abound.  Knowingly or not, when people ask for "advice" sometimes they are seeking ways to circumvent all the time and actual work you have to put into it. 

There are in fact people who come to sessions who don't play a note but love to hear the music being played in a informal setting where they can relax with a drink and a meal and get to know the musicians.  And the few hours of the session might be the only chance for some players to get their nyah-nyahs out.  It's not supposed to be a workshop and as said previously, if the quality slips the customers may go elsewhere and then there's trivia contests, Karaoke, Keno, etc in the pub and nowhere to play and hear the music.

Myself and everyone I play with want to help people who are coming up the way people helped us, but you have to climb the ladder. It's a psychologically complicated scene that doesn't suit everyone and there are jerks and nuts and passive-aggressive cretins in Irish music as there are in any human undertaking.   No one likes them, but they're part of life. The music is bigger than they are, thank God.

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## EdSherry

JeffD -- it's not merely a matter of "knowing the tunes," it's being able to contribute to, rather than detract from, what's happening.  One player who keeps showing up at a local session "knows" the tunes, in the sense of being able to pick them out slowly and out of time.  Unfortunately, he/she (a) can't play a tune in time even at a slow tempo [he/she keeps speeding up on the easy parts and slowing down on the harder parts] and (b) can't play at session tempo.    

I'm usually happy to help show someone the melody/chords, and suggest that they go home and practice until they can play along at tempo.  And the sessions I go to are generally willing to accomodate someone who can lead a tune/set at a moderate tempo by plaing along at their pace, rather than the usual "up to speed" tempo.  

But I agree that, if someone is "just out to have a good time" and doesn't know the tunes and doesn't know the aesthetic and the usual session etiquette, they're likely to see many sessions (not all) as "unwelcoming."  

This applies to experienced players and newbies alike.  You can be a great blues or swing player, but ITM isn't about blues or swing.

Steve L -- well said!  I'm always willing to share my knowledge of available resources with people who are willing to learn.  But that "ladder" exists, and there aren't many shortcuts.

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## John Flynn

Jeff: 

I don't take offense at all. I think you are very even-handed at expressing your opinions and I respect them. I do have a counterpoint. I have to side with the "Trad Police," on one point, which means I am temporarily switching sides. I do think Irish music is different, because of the variety of modes and rhythms that are used. I can definitely sit on an old time or bluegrass jam and do a very good job of playing rhythm by ear 80% of the time, without knowing the tunes. The remaining 20% I can get by watching the guitar players, bringing me up to nearly 100%. About half the time, I can even take a very decent solo break, without knowing the tune, because most of the melodies are not that hard and a many of them are more similar than different. By three times through most bluegrass tunes, I actually do know the tune, even though I've never heard it before. Then putting together a decent break is just not that hard. Can I do it well enough to make me a contender at IBMA? Nope, but it doesn't sound bad either. In fact, I know it sounds better than some "regulars" at jams I've been to, people who have played the same tunes for years. 

Now I have to switch sides again! I also disagree with foldedpath's analogy of likening a trad session to a "jazz jam, or a Choro session, or a gathering of the local chamber music society." Oh, come on! Trad is more complicated than old-time or bluegrass, I admit, but it does not come near the complexity and uniqueness of those three genres. Also, it's apples and oranges. Those are not so much participation music genres. Groups in those genres are more "bands" and their "sessions" are really "rehearsals" and not "open" in any sense.  

Interestingly enough though, we have the largest established mandolin orchestra in the US here is Pittsburgh. They are a serious classical music group. Interestingly, according to their website, they allow newcomers to sit in on their rehearsals without an audition. They'll even send you sheet music in advance. So despite a more challenging music genre, they are more "open" than most trad sessions.

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## michaelpthompson

> I guess I am going to be hit with a lot of shrapnel, and perhaps not undeservedly. But it just seems so glaringly obvious it needed to be said. Again, I apologize if I have gotten anyone's nose out of joint.


Your comments seemed remarkably well-balanced to me Jeff.

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## foldedpath

> Now I have to switch sides again! I also disagree with foldedpath's analogy of likening a trad session to a "jazz jam, or a Choro session, or a gathering of the local chamber music society." Oh, come on! Trad is more complicated than old-time or bluegrass, I admit, but it does not come near the complexity and uniqueness of those three genres.


Let's leave aside the complexity issue for the moment, and just talk about "uniqueness" and shared values and experience. It's not that hard for a Bluegrass player to attend an OldTime jam, or a Blues jam, or a Rock jam, because the musical language is similar, and the cultural conventions of the jam are fairly similar. Especially the reliance on chord backup.

Now, look at where some people attending Irish sessions are coming from: the flute players, pipers, button box players, fiddlers, tin whistle players. Many of these people have never been to something like a Bluegrass or Blues jam in their life. Some may be sliding over from classical music and trying to break the paper habit. Others may have grown up with Irish and related trad music all their life. Or, yes, they may well be coming from American folk styles too. It's a mix.

Anyway, when it comes to the _musical backgrounds_ of the people you're likely to meet at an Irish, Scottish, or similar trad session, it can easily be just as foreign as Choro or Jazz or chamber music. Or to put it another way, a flute player is unlikely to share the same musical history as someone who plays the mandolin, until they both run into each other at an Irish session.
 :Wink:

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## Bertram Henze

> A session, or jam in any genre, is a conversation. You would NEVER go up to a group of people at a conference say, having a spirited conversation, and worm your way in and change the subject or speak in a language foreign to the group.


Very good analogy, about sums it up.




> I have never understood the idea, regardless of the type of music, that someone thinks they can participate meaningfully without knowing the tunes.


If I may take a wild guess - "that music sounds so happy and carefree, it can't be difficult" + "the tunes sound all the same anyway" - ??  :Grin: 

Plus, Irish Trad. is often mistaken for its sinister alcoholic twin genre of drinking dirges and barf ballads where volume is all you need.

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## JeffD

> JeffD -- it's not merely a matter of "knowing the tunes," it's being able to contribute to, rather than detract from, what's happening. .


You are correct. Knowing the series of notes in the right order, like a memorized telephone number, is not the same as knowing how to play the tune in context.

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## zookster

A lot of good comments here.  I'd like to touch on a few points:

"_Drive the Music"_    That's a real problem for beginners, because there is essentially no need to do that.  Dennis Cahill made an interesting comment that  the music doesn't need drive, since the rhythm is "built in" to the melody line.  Listen to any tune, and you'll pick up on the rhythm pretty quickly even with no accompaniment.  What the music does need is "lift", which helps propel the music without driving it. That's when the sparks begin to fly and the music comes to life. Its all about flowing, and not pushing.  The same could be said about the outlook toward a session. 

If you'd like to explore rhythm possibilities, listen to any Dervish album. The interplay between the bouzouki and mandola is inventive, clever, and adds greatly to the texture of the tune/song.  I'm no Brian McDonagh, but I like to use mandola in a session since it creates a space for me between the fiddles and a bouzouki/guitar.  If I want to play in unison, provided I've relearned the fingering on mandola, it also adds some body to the sound.  If you happen upon a like-minded bouzouki player, you can have some fun between the two of you.  However..........it's got to fit.  If what you are doing is not tasteful,  you're not going to be welcome.     

  I could also stress the playing in unison comments, which have been covered.  Learn the tunes, and use the rhythm for effect.   You'll discover playing the melody is a lot more intellectually satisfying than being a rhythm player.

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## Bertram Henze

> "_Drive the Music"_    That's a real problem for beginners, because there is essentially no need to do that.  Dennis Cahill made an interesting comment that  the music doesn't need drive, since the rhythm is "built in" to the melody line.  Listen to any tune, and you'll pick up on the rhythm pretty quickly even with no accompaniment.  What the music does need is "lift", which helps propel the music without driving it. That's when the sparks begin to fly and the music comes to life. Its all about flowing, and not pushing.


That leads to one very important point for all rhythm players: pick up the tempo from the melody instruments AND KEEP IT STEADY!
Our sessions regularly suffer from single persons putting the pedal to the metal and dragging the rest into a death spiral of speed. A single melody player can be reigned in by the others, but a rhythm player has more power - desastrous power. Use it wisely.

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## Steve L

I think the well meaning advice to listen to bands like Dervish or Plantxy for folks new to the music is throwing them into the deep end of the pool. ten to recordings with sparse or no accompaniment to really get a feel for the music.  I really like the Andy McGann & Paddy Reynolds recording with Paul Brady on guitar, The Liz Carol and Tommy Peoples recordings (not together) with Daithi Sproule,  Paddy Keenan's duo recording with Arty McGlynn, the Matt Molloy/ Donal Lunny masterpiece from the 70s, the Kerry Fiddles with Padaig O'Keefe, Denis Murphy, and Julia Clifford, Conal O'Grada's "Cnoc Bui" with "just" flute and bodhran to suggest a scant handful.  The solo piping of Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Leo Rowsome, Patsy Touhey, and Sean Nos singers.

Then things like Paddy in the Smoke, Live At Matt Molloy's and Live at Mona's for some real high level session recordings and certainly the seminal recordings of Michael Coleman both for his transcendent fiddle playing and to hear what bad accompaniment can do to the best playing. The juxtaposition of some of that is just heartbreaking.

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## JeffD

Seamus Ennis, Michael Coleman, oh mannn... listening is so much of it. So very much.

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## DougC

One has to know the tunes in Irish as well as in Jazz standards. Not the case in Old Time, Bluegrass, blues and rock. For mandolin / players at least. I sat in on the Minneapolis Mandolin Orchestra a few times and sight read my way thru, but of course you need to read well enough to join the 'open' session. (It was hard but I didn't make any really big mistakes.)  :Frown:  

So a lot of cultural 'norms' are not apparent to joiners of Irish sessions. This thread is doing very well at flushing out the unspoken aspects that need to be understood. 

Who own's the session?; well WE do. At least in my case. Our Slow Session members all knew what the misunderstandings were going to be and we filled in the newbies very quickly and had them playing along with a high degree of success. The real bad ones have provided us with good stories to recall. And there is still a player in the advanced session who's personality drives everyone away. It' just part of the scene here I guess.

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## JeffD

> One has to know the tunes in Irish as well as in Jazz standards. Not the case in Old Time, Bluegrass, blues and rock. For mandolin / players at least. .


Well you have to know the tune in OT. I suppose one can get away with not knowing the tune a bit with BG, but not for long. And knowing the tune in either genre will make your contribution that much better. 

Rock there was recently a thread on. And I have to admit I do not know. Were I to generalize from what I know elsewhere I suspect that one can do much better knowing the melody.

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## DougC

One fundamental point that seems kind of odd to say on a mandolin forum is that traditional Irish instruments don't have to adapt or interpret the music. Guitar family instruments all have to come up with a 'style' of playing that 'fits' the idiomatic genre.  Even bouzouki players that have come 'into the fold' have to consider what to do; melody, chords, ornaments etc. That's not to say that whistle players sound Irish from the start, but the music was 'composed' a long time ago (probably using a whistle...) and it 'fits' the style. Now I have taken this notion to great extents over oceans of Guinness and can argue that accordions and even fiddles are just not Irish enough. But you get the idea; if you got 6, 8 or 12 strings, you walk in with a WMD - weapon of mass distraction.

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## JeffD

> But you get the idea; if you got 6, 8 or 12 strings, you walk in with a WMD - weapon of mass distraction.


But you won't go wrong playing the melody. (Up to speed and in tune etc. etc.)  You may be able to do some other things, rhythmic and otherwise, (and certainly not well unless you do know the melody), but if you can play the melody that is the way to go.

Foldedpath said it:




> As has often been said of this music: the melody in Irish trad is fixed, and accompaniment is improvised.

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## Jesse Harmon

Well OK this thread has absolutely scared the bejeebies out of me!!!!!!!!  I did pick up some information about playing.  However I wonder about the Jane Goodall analogy, was she "invited" to that gorilla session in first place and I loved this one,  "There are few places more welcoming than a good Irish session, just be sure you know what you're getting into"  and then there's "I don't want this guy getting his head bit off"   Doesn't sound too social to me, think I'll play at home for now.  I don't think I have time left to both get the music and the appropriate behavior right.  I do understand the hypothetical problem obnoxious person but this seems to transcend that difficulty into an undefined area of various kinds of musical opinion and musical self righteousness.

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## DougC

> this seems to transcend that difficulty into an undefined area of various kinds of musical opinion and musical self righteousness.


Well...I guess you don't get it. We are trying hard to help. There is a ton of stuff here and I suppose it looks like opinions and righteous attitudes.

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## foldedpath

Jesse, I was going to say something about how things can look more complicated in online text than they are in real life, and many sessions out there are very welcoming. But then you lost me at the end, with "_this seems to transcend that difficulty into an undefined area of various kinds of musical opinion and musical self righteousness_."

If you're going to form an opinion like that, without even trying to attend a session, then maybe sessions aren't for you. There are lots of other ways to enjoy music.

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## Jesse Harmon

Well I read the whole thread in one setting trying to find out about how to play rhythm and your are right perhaps, things can look more complicated in online text.  However some of the comments about guitar and other instruments seemed take the thread into somewhat a different feel and it seemed an awful lot like musical opinion to me.  I'm here to learn and don't want to offend but you know I think you are right, the session is not my baby.  I would never have gone without listening first anyway as it is laughable that I would sit in with some of the people playing on the thread.  I prefer to have a more structured type of situation, not one that you are trying to guess what is going to please someone else,

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## foldedpath

Jesse, if you haven't given up on the idea completely, I'd highly recommend reading a fun little book called the "Field Guide to the Irish Music Session" by Barry Foy. If it's not at your local library, here's a link where you can buy it:

http://www.frogchartpress.com/fieldguide.html

And here's a link to Barry being interviewed on Rick Steve's travel radio show lst year (skip ahead to the 33 minute mark, it's a 20 minute segment):

http://www.ricksteves.com/radio/stre...program199.asx

What you'll read in the book tracks very closely what's being said here, and you can get a little taste of that in the interview too (although the book is funnier). Maybe that will help convince that there's more than just a few people's random opinions involved here. Also, the ability to suss out the local etiquette of a musical gathering isn't unique to Irish sessions. The same ability to apply the "Jane Goodall" method is useful for attending a Bluegrass or OldTime sessions you're not familiar with. Some of those folks can be _just_ as scary, believe me. 
 :Wink:

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## Steve L

Nothing's for everybody.

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## Jesse Harmon

Thanks I'll follow up on that.  I probably wouldn't have been attending a session anyway whether I ever read this thread.  I just don't have a lot of time for that in my life anyway.  The general tone of some of the posts put me off as did the general tone of my post put you off.  As to Goodall, my point was she was not there by invitation.  I assume the sessions are invitational.  When I invite someone to my house it isn't up to them to feel me out about anything, it is up to me to make the person comfortable with the expectations.  I do thank you and also Steve L for his contributions to the thread.

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## JeffD

> Nothing's for everybody.


While this is certainly true, I would never want my words to be the deciding facor in discouraging someone from seeing whats what first hand. I would not be proud of that outcome, regardless of what I had said.

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## Bertram Henze

I understand the OP is not an ITM lover as such but has been invited to a session and therefore expects to be treated courteously as a guest.

I think it transpires from most of our posts that to participate in a session takes conviction and the will to work for success, otherwise no enjoyment is to be expected. Which applies for many things in life, so nothing special about that, but it creates a conflict with what the OP expected.

The sad thing is that now apperently the whole business is not even tried in reality, because it might have turned out different from both the OP's expectation and our experience. Sessions are unpredictable by nature.
My advice would be: go to the session, try and see what you find and if there is a slot for you to fit in. If not, then that's that, but not even trying is like giving up on life.

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## Steve L

This whole thread had it's genesis in the question "Since this (learning tunes) takes a while, can anyone suggest some strategies for playing...on tunes I don't know?".  He makes a previous statement that he doesn't want to embarrass himself there and poses a subsequent question about what mandolin players "do" in traditional music.  Sidestepping the fact that the mandolin is not a traditional instrument proper, 99% of us, in my experience, play the tune.

Some of us who've been playing at sessions for a while and know that someone unfamiliar with tunes trying to play backing is a real hot button that can throw off other players suggested, since his general attitude is one of trying to do things right, he might not want to play on tunes he doesn't know.  And though some would pay nominal service to this basic idea (knowing the tune), this opened a pandora's box of "trad police", "stink eye", unfriendliness, and post traumatic bodhran disorder.  

I've been trying to imagine someone trying to get a game of doubles going after their second or third tennis lesson or wanting to take on the president of a chess club after reading chapter 4 of  "Chess for Dummies", or telling a karate master that they don't want to bother with a lot of hooey, just teach me how to break bricks.  It seems ridiculous, but to approach playing Irish music with the same realistic expectations is seen as a grotesque violation of an egalitarian world-view.  Why? 

When I say that nothing's for everyone, Jeff, I mean that:

Not everyone that wants to play Irish music can.
Not everyone that can play Irish music wants to.
Not everyone that can play Irish music likes sessions.
Not everyone that likes sessions can deal with the structure of being in a band.
Not everyone in a band can deal with the lack of structure of sessions.
Fitting in a at one session doesn't guarantee you'll fit in all.

On and on.

If someone can be easily dissuaded by a message board exchange and not go see for themselves, they can't have been very keen in the first place.  When I became aware of this music, it was like Saul on the road to Damascus and I wanted to know how I could fit into that world.  I had no expectation that world would fit itself to me.

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## Jesse Harmon

Did someone actually say they "thought the world would fit itself into me"?  I'm not only new to mandolin but new to message boards so maybe I'm having trouble understanding how to read the messages.  I thought the op said he was "invited" to the session and he seemed to be going to great lengths to do the right thing.  I read it as a great opportunity to find out how to play rhythm to Irish music in general.  As I saw the thread develop it seemed to be more about what the definition of a "session" is, and that also would be helpful to me in general although not specifically what the op was asking.  What I object to is the tone of some of these posts by some who are confrontational and sound more like Moses on the Mountain than Saul on the road.

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## Steve L

I give up.

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## Dagger Gordon

"I was thinking about this thread this past Sunday. We had a fellow turn up at our session, a whistle player from Britain. He was passing through on business and heard about our session somehow and came down to play. He didn't know a soul and in about 10 minutes he had 8 strangers in a foreign country treating him like an old friend. He played pretty good, was a really nice guy who clearly had understood the dynamics of sessions for years, sat out the tunes he didn't know and shared tunes, jokes and stories with us for 3 hours. He's had this experience all over the world playing Irish music.

This is what's possible if you take the time to know what you're doing. If he'd come in noodling over things he didn't play or demanding to know by whose authority the session was being run, he would have had a markedly different experience and so would myself and my session mates. "

Steve, I like this story very much.  It's a reminder of how a stranger in town can be welcomed by strangers and immediately feel at ease.  

Note that the visitor didn't just share tunes.  He also had jokes and stories and was a really nice guy.  Remember that a session is also about having a good night in the pub.  It shouldn't be confrontational in any way.

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## Steve L

Thanks for that, Dagger.

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## John Flynn

> Jesse, if you haven't given up on the idea completely, I'd highly recommend reading a fun little book called the "Field Guide to the Irish Music Session" by Barry Foy. If it's not at your local library, here's a link where you can buy it:
> 
> http://www.frogchartpress.com/fieldguide.html
> 
> And here's a link to Barry being interviewed on Rick Steve's travel radio show lst year (skip ahead to the 33 minute mark, it's a 20 minute segment):
> 
> http://www.ricksteves.com/radio/stre...program199.asx
> 
> What you'll read in the book tracks very closely what's being said here, and you can get a little taste of that in the interview too (although the book is funnier). Maybe that will help convince that there's more than just a few people's random opinions involved here. Also, the ability to suss out the local etiquette of a musical gathering isn't unique to Irish sessions. The same ability to apply the "Jane Goodall" method is useful for attending a Bluegrass or OldTime sessions you're not familiar with. Some of those folks can be _just_ as scary, believe me.


I bought and read that book. I think the fact that anyone finds the book "funny" is part of the problem that some folks have tried to express here. I found the book pretentious and offensive, similar to some of the posts here. It basically says that those who can play Irish music know who they are and everyone else should just sit and listen. If newcomers try to play, they should expect rude behavior and ridicule. 

I have attended Irish sessions in multiple cities for a few years, bluegrass and OT jams much longer. I don't consider myself a great player, but I am no beginner either. I have not found that kind of attitude at all Irish sessions, but I have found it much more often at Irish sessions than bluegrass or old-time jams. And I don't think it is entirely due to the music being more complicated. If that is to be the hallmark of Irish sessions, so be it. I find it a sad commentary on my Irish heritage.

I did find it ironic listening to the radio interview where Foy allowed how songs sung at sessions could even be something from U2. That sounds more of a deviation from tradition than having two guitars!

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## JeffD

> If someone can be easily dissuaded by a message board exchange and not go see for themselves, they can't have been very keen in the first place.


I absolutely agree. No arguement at all. Especially consdering that music is not one of those mandatory things that anyone absolutely has to get down.

I guess what I am saying is I personally don't like saying it, as I have hopes that the person will go for it; perhaps come back discouraged, but knowledgeably discouraged as opposed to intimidated by rumor and words.




> When I became aware of this music, it was like Saul on the road to Damascus and I wanted to know how I could fit into that world.  I had no expectation that world would fit itself to me.


Same with me. When the central tenants of participatory music became evident to me, that there were things to learn and that it was some in books but mostly in experience, and that time in the saddle was a shared experience, something all musicians have been through, something that links us all - and that like everything in life you can't expect be respected as accomplished until you are umm....  accomplished -  I was all passion and activity, trying to learn as much as I could as fast as I could. And when I discovered (I remember the moments) that I could do this - - well that was gasoline on the flames.

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## JeffD

> Note that the visitor didn't just share tunes.  He also had jokes and stories and was a really nice guy.


This is a real key. And it ties in with a prior thought of yours Dagger, (and I can't find it to quote it) were you emphasized the value of the friends you make at a session. My goodness, almost of the people in the world I know that I don't work with or fish with I play music with. 





> Remember that a session is also about having a good night in the pub.  It shouldn't be confrontational in any way.


I guess this as good a way of saying it - sometimes there might be a truth that I would not be incorrect in stating, but would be wrong to say, in that we are trying to get along, encourage each other, and have a ripping good time.

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## JeffD

> I have attended Irish sessions in multiple cities for a few years, bluegrass and OT jams much longer. I don't consider myself a great player, but I am no beginner either. I have not found that kind of attitude at all Irish sessions, but I have found it much more often at Irish sessions than bluegrass or old-time jams.


I would dispute that, based on my experience and everyone I know. 

For me - I have gotten the most attitude and stink-eye from bluegrass jams, by far. By a mile. No surprise, however, bluegrass is the genre I came to the latest, and was most inexperienced with. 

The perfect storm is when I have a lot of knowledge and experience that I don't know is irrelevant to the type of music I am about to embark on - so I have both ignorance and confidence.  I think that what ever genre we go into after we have gotten confident elsewhere will feel like where we bump into the most attitude, because we are no-longer as humble as we were when the whole world was new.

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## John Flynn

> I think that what ever genre we go into after we have gotten confident elsewhere will feel like where we bump into the most attitude, because we are no-longer as humble as we were when the whole world was new.


You you are obviously using the "royal 'we'" there!  :Wink:

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## JeffD

:Smile:

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## foldedpath

I could be wrong, but I would guess that most of the people complaining about rejection and unfriendliness, are trying to play chord backup/rhythm instead of playing the melody. It's just not a complaint you hear that often from the melody players. 

If the local sessions seem unapproachable and you want to play a different way, you can always form your own alternative session or hybrid genre that can accommodate more rhythm section players. There's a jam in our town that's a hybrid between Irish, OldTime and folk. Nobody is forcing anyone to attend trad sessions and adapt to that culture, if you're not comfortable with it.

P.S. yes, I heard that comment in the radio interview about U2 songs. I think that was meant more as an "exception that proves the rule," but I could be wrong. At any rate, one or two songs like that might happen at any session (including ours). But a large part of session culture is about making sure the entire night doesn't go that way.

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## DougC

Of course I hold the opinion of an inexperienced guy in the highest esteem! 
If some of this advice seems a bit to hard on guitar players there must be a reason. Fact or opinion, after so much effort one has to give up on the newbie and do something else. Dagger has it right, talk about the good aspects only. 
That book by Barry Foy is very descriptive. And if Martin likes it, I like it. At least he has EARNED his esteem.

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## Jesse Harmon

Oddly enough the reason that I started with mando was that I was really interested in playing melody without dealing with all the complexities of classical guitar harmony, as something fresh.  I said as much on some of my first posts.  So I read this thread  having no clue about rhythm in Irish music and thought maybe I might learn something.  Definitely ironic that I got tangled up in this over rhythms and sessions when I really am not really interested in that part right now being a home player, non boozer.  I would never consider these posts important enough to let it stop me from enjoying a session somewhere even though they seem to be somehow endowed with a general feeling of great importance and a general feel of speaking for the whole Irish community.

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## foldedpath

> Oddly enough the reason that I started with mando was that I was really interested in playing melody without dealing with all the complexities of classical guitar harmony, as something fresh.  I said as much on some of my first posts.  So I read this thread  having no clue about rhythm in Irish music and thought maybe I might learn something.  Definitely ironic that I got tangled up in this over rhythms and sessions when I really am not really interested in that part right now being a home player, non boozer.


The "boozer" thing is irrelevant, and could be seen as borderline insulting (IMO). Yes, Irish sessions often take place in establishments that serve alcohol. That's a tradition that goes back at least 60 years, and further if you include kitchen sessions in private homes. But not all sessions are in pubs and bars.

It's different at every session. At ours, we get our first round of drinks free from the house. It doesn't have to be alcohol if you prefer something else, and non-drinkers are always welcome. Sometimes a random person in the pub will buy the players another round, and that's a nice way to know that your music is appreciated. The other way is when someone in the bar grabs their partner and starts dancing to the tunes, and that's even better. 

It's not about the alcohol. Actually for us, it's more about the happy coincidence that our sessions are on "one dollar Taco night" at the bar. They're good Tacos, too.

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## Bertram Henze

> boozer


I understand this to describe a person out of control due to alcohol. A musician in this state would not be able to reliably play a tuneset. I have seen musicians courteously stop playing because of this ("I forgot all the B parts!") on very rare occasions.
Therefore, those playing a tuneset together will certainly not be boozers. Now the audience, on the other hand...




> endowed with a general feeling of great importance and a general feel of speaking for the whole Irish community.


I have spoken from my own experience only and I guess so did most others here; this does not extend to a more global scale, of course, but I think that is implied and does not have to be mentioned every time.

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## Jock

Me, I'd just head out to the session with my instrument regardless. 

I must admit to having never played mandolin back up at a session but I'm not without a certain amount of experience in the rhythm department  :Wink:  . Having said that I can think of a few mandolin players who can and do play solid back up at sessions (as well as tunes). 

The dynamic at a session can vary from venue to venue but generally good sessions should convey a feeling of human warmth and community, a togetherness (you often see this between complete strangers), even for the none players, essentially because music is being played amongst the greater company rather than at the company, from a stage or through a PA. Indeed I've felt all the session positives at informal backyard bluegrass/old time jams that I attended in a Houston suburb that I stayed in, whilst working out there for my Aberdeen employers Houston branch. Started by trading licks over the high backyard fence and evolved into tunes at hot n spicy craw daddy boils meeting the neighbors.

At a good session everybody, players and non, should feel a part of it. It has to be said that some, maybe a few want to be alpha dogs, take things more seriously than others and from time to time perhaps this can disrupt the flow of some of the positives I mention above. The quality of the music is only one part of what makes a good session good, good humorous inclusive human interaction is just as important.  

I don't think you need to be able to play the tunes to play good back up. What you do need is an appreciation of how the tunes go, the structure and the keys (tonal centers would be a better way of describing keys in scots & irish traditional music). Here's a great link to AlBrown's session.org user name profile that has some great information on traditional music back up/ accompaniment:

>>>>  Have a look  >>>> 

I learned by sitting in adding a chord here a bass run there, there's usually no shortage of tips & advice, not all constructive but most of us have the social skills to deal with the odd knock, even the best players suffer the odd knock from time to time, without it putting us off. 

Sure the tunes don't actually need accompaniment but if done sensitively, it can really add to the music and in that context it's always welcome IME. Next thing you know you'll be chunking out the tunes, or mortgaging the house to buy a set of elbow pipes or such like  :Laughing: 

For it to come together you have to be there, until you sort things out just keep things low key and quiet enough not to disrupt the flow, easy on a mondolin, and above all else enjoy yourself.

For me music is about positives, the only rule is to adhere to basic norms of human interaction and behavior.

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## Bertram Henze

So many words and so little music.
What we all can't say with words, one session can say without a single word.
Once you have been immersed into one good session, the question of playing without knowing the tunes becomes irrelevant because you will go home with a piece of paper full of scribbled tune names, desperately WANTING to learn them all!
That's why I like it, plus...
- no dresscode
- age does not matter
- location does not matter (here's two examples from completely different places:
Potsdam near Berlin, Germany
Lerwick, Shetland)

How can anyone not come back and beg for more...

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## Jesse Harmon

I apologize if I offended with the term boozer. You are right it does have a derogatory connotation, and also a lighter meaning.  Like you said, so many words, and I might add with so little understanding. I am an ex boozer myself and wouldn't consider it a problem if someone said that.  I also did not imply everyone with my "importance", any one reading through this thread would understand I hope.

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## Randi Gormley

The odd thing is that most of us sort of take the craic for granted when discussing ITM sessions and focus on the other stuff. Some of the nicest people I know are the ones I've met at our sessions, including beginner players and professionals who occasionally drop by. Bertram and Jock both made the point very well. If the OP -- or anybody -- is invited to a session, s/he should go and ask questions about backup and whatnot after (or at the site). I realize it's nice to be prepared ahead of time, but you don't know what to prepare for until you've been, at least in my experience.

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## michaelpthompson

> The "boozer" thing is irrelevant, and could be seen as borderline insulting (IMO). Yes, Irish sessions often take place in establishments that serve alcohol. That's a tradition that goes back at least 60 years, and further if you include kitchen sessions in private homes. But not all sessions are in pubs and bars.
> 
> It's different at every session. At ours, we get our first round of drinks free from the house. It doesn't have to be alcohol if you prefer something else, and non-drinkers are always welcome. Sometimes a random person in the pub will buy the players another round, and that's a nice way to know that your music is appreciated. The other way is when someone in the bar grabs their partner and starts dancing to the tunes, and that's even better. 
> 
> It's not about the alcohol. Actually for us, it's more about the happy coincidence that our sessions are on "one dollar Taco night" at the bar. They're good Tacos, too.


I have to agree about that. Most Americans don't have a clue about pubs. In the UK and Ireland, the pub and the church are the social centers of the community. The pub is where you gather with your mates, where you meet new people, where you catch up on the local gossip (AHEM! I mean "news" don't I?). The pub is not about alcohol, it's about social interaction. The alcohol can be a lubricant, but it's far from an essential part of the pub experience.

A bar, by contrast, is mostly about drinking, and maybe trying to get lucky. There are a lot of bars in America, and precious few pubs. Fortunately, many of the pubs host sessions. That makes them even more friendly and inviting than they were.

I've played with plenty of people who drink beverages that contain no alcohol. It makes no difference to either the pub experience or to the session. So the statement "I don't want to play sessions because I'm not a boozer." is both inaccurate and insulting.

This thread started with a question of whether you could just drop into an Irish session and play rhythm mandolin backup without knowing the tunes. In general, the answer is "no." There are common rhythms and common chord patterns in ITM, but you do have to have some idea of the tunes to play along with them, and you need to know something about the social conventions of a TRAD session to blend in effectively. It may look like a lot of boozers banging away, but there's a lot more going on under the surface.  :Popcorn:

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## Jesse Harmon

Bertram, I watched those lovely examples and it is exactly the idea I envisioned about a session.  I did not get that open friendliness in this description in this thread from the first *don't"  to the last  "you don't get it" . Some of the "alpha" dogs in this thread assumed the worst about someone coming to a session, or gave examples in their past history, or dreamed up hypothetical situations gave some pretty solid statements about which instruments were acceptable, etc etc.   Hence the "importance" remark.  By the way I wish posters would have at least their name on the post.

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## Bertram Henze

> In the UK and Ireland, the pub and the church are the social centers of the community. The pub is where you gather with your mates, where you meet new people, where you catch up on the local gossip (AHEM! I mean "news" don't I?). The pub is not about alcohol, it's about social interaction.


Plus, I found that in many areas the pub is still the room with the most expensive furniture around, where the common man can feel like a lord for a few hours. So it's also about lifestyle - the 19th century holodeck.

Last Saturday night, I sat in one of the most perfect sessions we had for months, beside a concertina player and said to him "what is it tonight, only good musicians and the waitress noticed my empty glass before I did" and he said "maybe we are already in heaven and haven't noticed yet?".
One hour later I said, relieved: "reality check positive: she forgot my coke. This can't be heaven."

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## Bertram Henze

> Bertram, I watched those lovely examples and it is exactly the idea I envisioned about a session.  I did not get that open friendliness in this description in this thread from the first *don't"  to the last  "you don't get it" .


Yeah, the good things is what everybody takes for granted. Humans tend to remember the bad things - pity.

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## Jesse Harmon

One famously labeled last word from me on this thread.  On my last visit to Dublin I visited St Pat Cathedral and was told it was refurbished with money donated by Guinness.  It was also mentioned that alcoholism is a national problem by a resident Irish gentleman.  (backed up by various news agencies some time ago)  It continues to be an on going problem in our own country with many people who consider themselves social drinkers taking out innocent people on the highway coming back from these fun events.  Do I sense a little oversensitivity on this booze word?  I really did mean it lightly.

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## Jesse Harmon

One last, "last" post, Michael, I think this post is about the second post by the OP.  He was obviously a seasoned musician even by the first post and I think that I read him "right" in that he was looking to find out about how to play rhythm to Irish music in general.  He stated that the "tunes you don't know" was not what he meant.  That was exactly what I tuned in for but was not what I ended up with.  I keep telling myself not to post, but, you know I come from good Irish stock myself and to do otherwise would be against my natural inclination.  Sorry if I have offended what seems to be most of the posters here.  But I can't resist saying it, I wouldn't change a thing about my meanings, in any of the posts, except maybe some vocabulary to not push any sensitive buttons.

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## JeffD

> Do I sense a little oversensitivity on this booze word?  I really did mean it lightly.


Hey, if I knew all the tunes I would never get to drink.   :Smile:

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## michaelpthompson

No worries Jesse. I found the description of pub goers as boozers to be offensive by nature, but I'm not all that easily offended, so it doesn't even get my back up.

I've followed this thread from the beginning, but it's been complicated, so I may have missed some of the nuances in the "second post" by the OP. However, I think the question of how to play rhythm in Irish music is answered by the advice to attend sessions, listen a lot, play a little, and learn as you go. And remember, there is such a thing as a snobby session where rhythm mandolin may be nekulturny. Not common, but out there. Better to learn in the safety of the Café than the cauldron of the session. :-)

And actually, SincereCorgi seems to have had a good grasp on the situation even then.




> I may have given the wrong impression– I don't intend to show up and chop I IV V chords on the off-beats. I've listened to a fair amount of trad music and worked through some of the "Celtic Back-Up" book, and I also have enough common sense not to step on the progressions of any resident rhythm players. I guess you could say I've got a "first, do no harm" approach to the thing. My question is: does _anybody_ have a mandolin approach to playing rhythm on Irish tunes? I guess I could just buy a nice, big bodhran. Or spoons... yeah... spoons...


That "first, do no harm" approach would seem just the thing.

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## timthebear

Hey guys, 
we live in the age of the internet and huge personal houses, fast cars and multiple possibilities for buying a mandolin and even picks that cost a ridiculous amount of money. Music however, is music, and the most plastic and in some ways the most forgiving of the arts in a lot of ways. Social groupings can be another thing entirely. I have played a good deal of baroque and earlier music on period instruments (only very occasionally the mandolin). The important thing here is that the "traditional" music is being played by live performers, so like it or not, what they say goes until you are one of them, and if they don't outright tell you which way is up in their personal slice of the eighteenth or nineteenth or even twentieth century, it is up to you to insert with taste and trepidation what is appropriate to the piece and the group, always letting what is there already in the musical and social envelope be the guide: you must listen very carefully beforehand to grasp the gist of this. 

Places that aren't fun to be are places to be avoided, no matter how clever he performers are or how lovely the music is. And by the way, when we speak of tradition, whose tradition are we speaking about? Anything advanced in time from its origins has to have deviated significantly from what is original to the point of pretty much "what pleases people" about the concept of traditionality or authenticity, whether it's deciding to play from a single line unrealised figured bass part or whether to use American style modern scrape or Viennese school scrape on your period oboe reed, whether to use authentic gut strings on your axe, or whether you decide to let rhythm instruments have any part at all in your particular traditional view of the ensemble. I myself wouldn't wouldn't play the second violin part in a Haydn string quartet on a kazoo or even a mando (even if I could), but I would have no problem in making up the percussion parts to a renaissance dance for a consort of recorders, or tackling some Bach for my mando, guided always by what happens in the music. 
You are are allowed a certain leeway when the composer is dead, but you do have to contend with the "re-composers" you play with, whoever they are. In my experience, the best fun is had when everyone is focused on the music as a living thing, not on what their relatively narrow view of how it should be done  (to make them happy) though that is a part of it ,for sure. Remember, traditions evolve, especially when you are not aware of what the people 300 miles away are doing, or maybe even 30 miles. We too often think that because we see it/hear it that way, that's the way it has to be. A lot of people hear and see things the same way these days, thanks to what you are using right now. That is in itself not traditional at all (yet), nor is it a way to make a lot of different kinds of interesting variations on the same tune - which is another reality that deserves its own discussion.

Have fun as long as long  its the kind of fun that's fun for all. Other kinds of fun are no fun at all.

tgb

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## John Flynn

> Have fun as long as long  its the kind of fun that's fun for all. Other kinds of fun are no fun at all.


Wow! What a great statement. I could not agree more. 

I will share that I went to my local session last night. A guy showed up from the local paper to do a St. Pat's article on our session that will run in tomorrow's edition. We had a lot of fun, as we always do. 

I talked to our session leader about the ideas in this thread, different kinds of sessions, etc. He said he understands the "purist" point of view, he still goes to two regular "hardcore" sessions and was involved with the CCE organization for many years, which is pretty hardcore. But he said his main idea for the seven years he's been running this session is to get as many people playing Irish music and enjoying it as possible. If people mess up, or distract other players, he makes a comment to them offline, very diplomatically, and that generally works. No Jane Goodall, not even any stink-eye. His approach has not run off serious players as far as he can tell or I can observe. We have some seriously good people, a few of which have played in sessions all over the US and Ireland and who do not object to their being two guitarists, or two bodhran players, or beginners, etc.

I guess each to one's own.

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## JeffD

> His approach has not run off serious players as far as he can tell or I can observe.


If those that aren't listening or being belligerent are being handled diplomatically, there is nothing a serious player needs to run from.




> We have some seriously good people, a few of which have played in sessions all over the US and Ireland and who do not object to their being two guitarists, or two bodhran players, or beginners, etc.


I have not seen serously good people object to anyone trying to learn and fit in. Seriously good people are among the most tolerant and welcoming musicians there are. If they would have trouble with the jam they won't show up to begin with.

Sounds like you've got a great thing going.

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## Jesse Harmon

Michael, sorry if I offended you and pub goers.  Drink, tipple, sip, guzzle, they all have various connotations.  Social drinking in quotes can imply something I suppose.  I used the word often in the days before I decided not to indulge in alcohol beverages.  Is there booze at the partly, is there any booze left in the fridge, it really didn't imply any thing out of control to me.  My friends drink, we have dinner with friends who often have wine and various kinds of liquor at the table.  (booze, sauce, juice, etc)  I don't see the problem here and it was only one of these fast posts that you do.  By the way there's a great pub song that James Croce does, can't think of it right now but probably would he a little too offensive for the pub goers.

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## JeffD

> The important thing here is that the "traditional" music is being played by live performers, so like it or not, what they say goes until you are one of them, and if they don't outright tell you which way is up in their personal slice of the eighteenth or nineteenth or even twentieth century, it is up to you to insert with taste and trepidation what is appropriate to the piece and the group, always letting what is there already in the musical and social envelope be the guide: you must listen very carefully beforehand to grasp the gist of this.


Genius. You just distilled 138 posts down to what needs to be said. Well done.

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## Bertram Henze

I found this one of a band playing the Salamanca Reel. At first, I could not make out what instrument the guy in the middle is playing, but in the last second of the video he turns a bit into the light and...



We learn two things from this video:
- melody players should form the majority in the group for best results,
- venue and audience should actively support the fun.

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## Gelsenbury

Well, after a lot of anxiety being created by some of the stories about unwelcoming sessions, I experienced the opposite today. I turned up to a session that happens regularly across the region, and comes to my area once per month. I didn't bring my mandolin because I just wanted to listen, see if I recognise any of the tunes that were played, and get talking to the musicians. Not only were they very easy to talk to; they positively insisted that I bring my instrument next time, even if it's just to strum a couple of open chords or play along quietly to figure out the tunes. They are good musicians and play much faster than I can, but they reassured me that they all started the same way. It's good to see that there are sessions that take the music seriously, but don't get precious about themselves.

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## michaelpthompson

> Well, after a lot of anxiety being created by some of the stories about unwelcoming sessions, I experienced the opposite today. I turned up to a session that happens regularly across the region, and comes to my area once per month. I didn't bring my mandolin because I just wanted to listen, see if I recognise any of the tunes that were played, and get talking to the musicians. Not only were they very easy to talk to; they positively insisted that I bring my instrument next time, even if it's just to strum a couple of open chords or play along quietly to figure out the tunes. They are good musicians and play much faster than I can, but they reassured me that they all started the same way. It's good to see that there are sessions that take the music seriously, but don't get precious about themselves.


Where's the "Like" button when you need it?

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## JeffD

> Not only were they very easy to talk to; they positively insisted that I bring my instrument next time, even if it's just to strum a couple of open chords or play along quietly to figure out the tunes. They are good musicians and play much faster than I can, but they reassured me that they all started the same way. It's good to see that there are sessions that take the music seriously, but don't get precious about themselves.


I think this is the case for the *overwhelming* majority of jams and sessions, and is the case most of the time. We really have all started the same way, and everyone at a jam had a first jam, and most people are pretty decent, actually.

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## Bertram Henze

> It's good to see that there are sessions that take the music seriously, but don't get precious about themselves.


Well said. I am glad it turned out good for you, now go practice, stay humble and friendly and you'll be a role model of a session player yourself in no time (actually, it might take some time, but a happy one)  :Smile:

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## DougC

It looks like Gelsenbury listens well and and does not have to 'always have the last word'.  Our sessiun is very welcome to folks like this.

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## Bertram Henze

Just found this video of a member of our sessions, who is quite outside average with his playing speed (he is known here as TurboTobi) and his melody vs. rhythm solutions.  :Grin: 



I guess his next step will be surgical fitting of two more arms.

And just in case that was too slow for you...

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## JeffD

Sailors Hornpipe wasn't fast enough. I could still recognize the tune.

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## Peter Kurtze

Whenever I see a double-neck mando-guitar, I'm reminded of John Lennon's illustration for "The Fat Growth on Eric Hearble" . . .

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## Bertram Henze

Yes, it's a funny machine. I once remarked that the logical consequence of marrying these two instruments would be an octave mandolin, but he just answered "No compromises!"  :Sleepy:

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## Gelsenbury

I love that first clip! Including the facial expressions. He's having a lot of fun!  :Smile: 

I can see what you mean about the first two tunes working nicely together in a set. I'll try it *slowly.*

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## John Flynn

My session group played a charity gig (we got fed at least!) for a big crowd this week. We had one full time guitar/rhythm player, two fretted instrument people who played rhythm on some tunes and melody on others, three flutes, a whistle, an accordion, and two percussionists. So on any given tune, melody players were just a little more than half and rhythm/percussion a little less than half. We intentionally sat the accordion player, who is very good, in the middle and asked him to play the loudest and be the "lead melody instrument." We all followed him. Everyone took pains to fit in, we sounded great and the crowd loved it. It was very satisfying and great fun. I think it goes to show there are no hard and fast rules. It's about musicianship.

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## foldedpath

> I think it goes to show there are no hard and fast rules. It's about musicianship.


Well, it goes to show that there are no rules when you're putting together a group for performance. It sounds like your group and the audience had a great time, so congratulations on the gig!  

I don't think it demonstrates any general principle that can be applied to sessions, because every session will have a different take on the "how many backers before there are too many?" question. Having the best musicianship in the world doesn't matter, if the members of a given session simply have an aesthetic preference for the group sound created by a very low ratio of backers to melody players.

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## JeffD

> Having the best musicianship in the world doesn't matter, if the members of a given session simply have an aesthetic preference for the group sound created by a very low ratio of backers to melody players.


Its not an aesthetic preference. Not at all. Its an entirely different goal. The session's goal is for everyone to play music together. It i not, by and large, intended to be a performance. That it may look like a performance to someone not knowing who feels like an audience, is of no concern to the session players.

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## foldedpath

Jeff, in what way is it not an aesthetic preference, if the members of a session prefer to have just one guitar player and one bodhran player instead of several? It's a preference for a particular flavor of group sound, as opposed to an army of guitars, zouks, and multiple Bodhran players in the background. At other sessions, the group may prefer the sound of more backers. It varies. Each session has its own group aesthetic, even if it's "free-for-all jam."

And yes, I'm talking session, not performance: A gathering of like-minded players having a musical conversation, with emphasis on the "like-minded" part.

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## Bertram Henze

> We intentionally sat the accordion player, who is very good, in the middle and asked him to play the loudest and be the "lead melody instrument." We all followed him.


One good accordian player can carry a lot of accompanists, volume-wise. That applies for both gig and session. You might say he does not participate in a session, he IS the session.
The downside is that if he fails to turn up, everybody else is suddenly very lonely with their attempts at music.

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## DougC

Following the best musician in the group is what all sessiun players do. That's if they have any musical sensibilities. Beginners need to learn this sometimes as well. 

Another example is that we had a hard time as beginners learning how to create the lilt and backbeat in the music because we had no one to provide an example. It all sounded as if we were reading notes or a machine was playing the music. There is so much to learn and it is not apparent to the new folks. Online stuff like this discussion, really helps. I wish it were around when we started in 1990.

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## JeffD

Well to my experience, (and mine alone), the choices of who is welcome and who isn't (setting aside totally inappropriate instruments, which is a separate discussion) is based on the mix of musical personalites and how much fun or tension they bring to the experience. I have never been in the circumstance here a guitar was made to feel unwelcome because there were already several playing, or a fiddle was not welcome because there were enough on lead. Has never happened to me. But again, that is me. (Many times I have known multi-instrumentalists who make their own choice as to what to play based on the sonic mix, but that is different, and even there it is often based on what is it more fun to play in this group at this time.)

I suppose it may happen at the higher reaches of talent, but even there it has to my experience been self policing - i.e. a great and venerated fiddler is playing away and so other fiddlers of their own free will take a back seat or decline to play and just listen.

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## JeffD

I have been to more than a few sessions where there was a core center group of a few musicians, calling the tunes, sounding great, and having a blast, surrounded by an ocean of bodhrans, zouks, and guitars that added mostly mud and fog to the overall sound. The core group listened intently to each other, sat close together, and more or less ignored the background noise much as they would ignore the background noise of a crowded bar, and did not appear to be having the least bit less fun for all the mash up mess the overall sound had become.

And  have had the distilled ecstacy to be in the core group of such a session, on several occations, and found that it was not that hard to do, and yea it was a ripping good time. Not that you would want to record it however.

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