# Octaves, Zouks, Citterns, Tenors and Electrics > CBOM >  Waldzither...

## Markkunkel

Given the recent interest in stuff Waldzither, I thought to start a new thread.  I've had two, this "super spiffy" one with the scrolled peghead, restoration courtesy of our very own Jake Wildwood:

and my present trusty first one, their less ornate but still very very cool model (check out that binding):


I've had both tuned GDAeb, with the G being single-stringed, and they are splendid that way.  A unique and somewhat "medieval" sound.  Anybody else?

MK

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Rob Zamites, 

Rush Burkhardt

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## MonicaJacobson

Whoa! That binding is crazy. The headstock on your previous one is really nice, too. I wouldn't mind having one with that detail. Not at all. Have you done any recordings with the one you have?

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## Markkunkel

> Have you done any recordings with the one you have?


Well, this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P__UC0Z-YTQ

captures the sound and "vibe" pretty nicely.

MK

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## Markkunkel

and this:




MK

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## MonicaJacobson

Ah, both of those are some of our favorite tunes. Cunla was one of the first tunes I ever learned on the mandolin. I want to pair Waldzither and mandolin to play Planxty's Follow Me Up to Carlow with Marty. I suppose that's a Waldzither in Planxty's "As I Roved Out"? I unfortunately haven't been able to find older version, my favorite version, on youtube. You've probably heard it, actually. The one with lots of active mandolin and bouzouki (or Waltzither, I'm now guessing). 

Anyway, I'm rambling. Suffice it to say that after listening to how amazing those celtic tunes sounds on your Waldzither (your playing doesn't hurt either!) I'm getting really excited about Marty finishing ours!

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## Marty Jacobson

Cool stuff, Mark! Just found this cool video of Andy playing his waldzither, only one on youtube that I could find. I got an octave mandolin several years ago when I didn't have a shop and was trying to get that kind of sound, and whether strung in unison or octaves, it never got the same sound.

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## Eddie Sheehy

I have a Waldzither strung as a mandola that I keep in Ireland for when I visit - it was restored by Dave Hynds and he gave it a Celtic 'Look'...

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## Tavy

Might as well throw mine in as well, not as pretty as Mark's, tuned DGDAE with the low D being just a drone really, 50cm scale:



Before and after comparisons:



Almost forgot this one as well, 43cm scale tuned GDAEB:

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Michael Weaver, 

Rob Zamites

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## Markkunkel

Your work on that first one, Tavy, was part of what got me interested in them way back when.  Pretty much your first "instrument restoration," if memory serves, and look at what you are doing now!  Cool stuff...

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## Martin Jonas

Waldzithers are cool.  I have two of them, both with conventional headstocks rather than the Preston-type key tuners (which were a marketing gimmick by Boehm rather than a traditional feature of Thuringian waldzithers).  I have a 9-string from 1925, labelled Zimmermann (a major instrument distributor) and an unlabelled 10-string with a slightly shorter scale.  Originally, the 10-string had a 2+2+2+2+1+1 configuration with one of the bass strings on the fretboard and the other free-swinging outside the neck (the original nut had a little extension protruding to the side for this extra bass).  I've changed it to a conventional five double-string configuration which is less quirky but more practical.

Normally, I tune the Zimmermann (G)DAEA and the 10-string CGDAE, although when I want to play in mandola tuning I sometimes change the Zimmermann to (F)CGDA.  The two instruments sound quite different, the Zimmermann being warm, resonant and mellow and the 10-string more bright and nasal.

Here are some 18th century English cittern duets by William Bates, played on my waldzithers:

1) On the Zimmermann (both voices) -- Duettinos Nos. VII, VI and VIII:



2) On the 10-string (both voices) -- Duettinos Nos. V and I:



There are photos of the waldzithers in the clips as well as photos of 18th century English citterns (it should be obvious which is which).

Martin

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## Markkunkel

Beautiful playing and beautiful instruments, Martin...thanks!

MK

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## MonicaJacobson

That black one looks really snazzy... and Martin, it was really interesting to hear the 18th century music and comparison. Even my six year old was impressed.  :Wink:

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## Tavy

> Your work on that first one, Tavy, was part of what got me interested in them way back when.  Pretty much your first "instrument restoration," if memory serves, and look at what you are doing now!  Cool stuff...


Yep, it's been all downhill from there really...  :Wink:

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## tmsweeney

nice tone on that - deep
pretty cool looking as well

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## Jake Wildwood

WZs are so cool. Having worked on a number of them, though, I really prefer the original "banjo" open C tuning on them to any mandolin-centric mod to them. It sounds lovely with that rich ringing big open chord sound and one can frail them, too... :D

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## Jake Wildwood

p.s. I've never, ever, ever been able to get the original glass bridges on these guys to sound decent.

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## ollaimh

I have an old waldzither with  a fancy head stock.   same pick guard and binding.  the head stock is a little plainer. just a curve without the full scroll.  it has brazillian rosewood  back sides and german spruce top. it's presently out for repair and restoration. I think it is worth repairing because of the woods.  the top droped from the bracing coming lose. a few cracks.  I look forward to it's return ready to go.  I love the playing of andy Irvine and many others , on waldzithers. I noticed that Irvine usually strings them with just four courses and leaves he fifth single string courtse with no string. he did that with his early Portuguese guitar as well.  he is a mandola guy.  it's great to see great music made on odd ball instruments. now every one has handmade top quality stuff. some of the best recordings on youtube have paul brady playing a Yamaha guitar or a greek bouzouki, and Irvine with a greek bouzouki and a waldzither.  there's even a duet with Irvine and mick hanly both playing waldzither.

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## Marty Jacobson

Wow! Mick's is a twin to Mark Kunkel's...

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## Michael Weaver

Wow!! I'm in love.......

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## Markkunkel

> Wow! Mick's is a twin to Mark Kunkel's...


alas, that my playing/singing were even a distant cousin!  Ah well, off to practice.

MK

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## Eddie Sheehy

That was great!  Mick is a neighbour of mine back in Limerick.

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## Markkunkel

> That was great!  Mick is a neighbour of mine back in Limerick.


Limerick, eh?  Hmmm...

A Waldzither player, called Mick
renowned for his playing (clean, slick)
in tones dulcet and brawny
lamented Annie and Johnny
in a way far removed from stuff schtick.  

MK

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## Eddie Sheehy

I know two...

There was a young man from Baku
Who's Limerick stopped at line two

AND...

There was a young man from Verdun

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allenhopkins, 

derbex

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## Roin

> Might as well throw mine in as well, not as pretty as Mark's, tuned DGDAE with the low D being just a drone really, 50cm scale:
> 
> 
> 
> Before and after comparisons:
> 
> 
> 
> Almost forgot this one as well, 43cm scale tuned GDAEB:


Very nice instruments, for me as a thuringian I always feel a bit ashamed that I cant play a thuringian Waldzither  :Redface:

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## ollaimh

I am trying to add the picture

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## ollaimh

ok I added four pictures, all the same. but this is the bohm waldzither just finished repair.  it has an amazing sound. the brazillian rosewood back and sides and german spruce top make it one of my best sounding instruments right out of the workshop.  I replaced the glass bridge with very hard ebony. the glass bridge was a bit too high. I don't know how to shave the glass. any suggestions?  it is a bit louder with glass, but not as mellow as with ebony.  I think ebony sounds better but glass was the traditional bridge.  it is so rich on all strings.  I haven't replaced the brass frets.  after it settles in I may do that.

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## ollaimh



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## ollaimh



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## ollaimh

the waldzither has one of the best sounds I have heard.  it's amazing. the brazillian rosewood back and sides and german spruce top really sing. I replaced the glass bridge with one of hard ebony.   the glass was also a great sound but was a bit too high and I don't know how to shave glass. any suggestions?

I can't believe how good this sounds. it was pretty broke up so I got it for  about $150 including shipping and tax.  the repairs cost considerably more but well worth it.

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## Ronny

Do you tune it like a mandolin with an extra low C or D ?

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## Ronny

Here's my waldzither (scale length : 47cm).
It's tune like a bouzouki.... I wonder myself if I should tune it like a mandola...

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## Martin Jonas

Ronny,

Not sure how tuning like a bouzouki works for a five-course instrument like the waldzither, with its very much shorter scale length.  

I have two waldzithers, one at 43cm (9 strings) and the other 41cm (10 strings).  The shorter of these I tune CGDAE, i.e. like a combined mandola/mandolin.  The E string is very very thin to get to work at that scale length (0.007", I think), and it's prone to snapping.  I don't think it would work with your longer scale length.  As my short-scale waldzither has ten strings, I have a double-course low C, which works just fine at that scale.

My slightly longer-scale 9-string is set up with a single thick bass string (0.070", I think).  The bass string is pretty weak at that scale length but sometimes handy to have to fill out chords or to play single bass notes in piece that is predominatly higher in range.  However, some players simply take it off -- Andy Irvine, for example, when he was playing waldzither.  Usually, I tune the instrument (G)DAEB or (G)DAEA, i.e. like an octave mandolin with an additional high B or A string -- B when I want to preserve fifths tuning, e.g. in classical pieces, and A when I want a high harmony string in Irish playing.  When I'm playing an arrangement that needs viola tuning, I retune one step lower, to (F)CGDA, i.e. alto mandola tuning on the four double courses.  All these tunings are close enough to each other than there's no need change strings.

Martin

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Ronny

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## Colin Lindsay

Just missed one on eBay, it was for sale in Germany and went for around £210 GBP while I
 dithered about.

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## Ronny

I'm restoring another one so if you can wait for it, Footerin'About... (same scale as the previous one).
In fact, the "bouzouki tuning" wasn't very convenient... I will try to tune it higher... (I have to check David Hynds website to dig more informations !!)

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## Colin Lindsay

> I'm restoring another one so if you can wait for it, Footerin'About... (same scale as the previous one).
> In fact, the "bouzouki tuning" wasn't very convenient... I will try to tune it higher... (I have to check David Hynds website to dig more informations !!)


I just might, Ronny - although I have rather nefarious plans for this sort of instrument. tuning of ADGBE for example so if thats not too sacrilegious. :Smile:

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## garryireland

just got one, was thinking of leaving the single string off and going gdae, what strings do u use

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## garryireland

nice. what strings do u use? i want to tune gdae bu dont know what way to leave the 9th string

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## dave17120

I have restored quite a lot of these.... but just recently completed a 'new' one for a friend in Germany who wanted it in the Bohm style but tuned in G. Came out well, great sound..... but as i dont play trad German tuning, my efforts in the video for it were a bit limited..   :Frown:  Dave

And video is here....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4A0...3iklPfSwij96Hw

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derbex

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## Colin Lindsay

This is mine, made by Ernst Oskar Reiche; tuned GDAE with the lower string F. It still has the original glass bridge; amazingly I haven’t broken it yet.

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## Martin Jonas

> This is mine, made by Ernst Oskar Reiche; tuned GDAE with the lower string F. It still has the original glass bridge; amazingly I havent broken it yet.


Looks nice.  Do you really mean GDAE, rather than CGDA?  If so, in what octave -- like a mandolin or like an octave mandolin? Having the lower course tuned F with others tuned GDAE doesn't sound quite right.

I have the shorter of my two waltdzithers tuned GDAE like a mandolin on the four higher courses, but that one has an exceptionally short scale for a waldzither (41cm), and even then the high E course is extremely thin and fragile, and I have the bass course tuned in C.

Martin

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## Colin Lindsay

> Looks nice.  Do you really mean GDAE, rather than CGDA?  If so, in what octave -- like a mandolin or like an octave mandolin? Having the lower course tuned F with others tuned GDAE doesn't sound quite right.
> 
> I have the shorter of my two waltdzithers tuned GDAE like a mandolin on the four higher courses, but that one has an exceptionally short scale for a waldzither (41cm), and even then the high E course is extremely thin and fragile, and I have the bass course tuned in C.
> 
> Martin


Theres only one comment I can make. F! 
Its tuned GDAE and lower as in a mandola, but I meant C for the 9th string. blame the late hour and these cheap glasses (they hold too much).

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## garryireland

ok guys just got the waldzither in the post havnt had time to play it but it looks good. I have it up on the classifieds. question, at the moment it is tuned in the regular open c tuning, how do i translate that to a mandolin tuning without breaking or changing the strings!?
 i cant seem to upload pics here

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/76885

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## garryireland

> Might as well throw mine in as well, not as pretty as Mark's, tuned DGDAE with the low D being just a drone really, 50cm scale:
> 
> 
> 
> Before and after comparisons:
> 
> 
> 
> Almost forgot this one as well, 43cm scale tuned GDAEB:


i have the same as the first one you posted there, just got it yesterday, bit tired looking but sounds great! good job.

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## bratsche

This thread makes me want a waldzither!  




> I replaced the glass bridge with one of hard ebony.   the glass was also a great sound but was a bit too high and I don't know how to shave glass. any suggestions?


I've never seen a glass bridge and it's hard to imagine one, but glass is very hard and brittle and would require grinding, not shaving.  Do you know anyone who does stained glass?  He or she would probably have a glass grinder.  I happen to have one, as I went through a stained glass phase in the '80s-early '90s.  It has diamond grit on the wheel, and must be lubricated with water to avoid overheating.

bratsche

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## Colin Lindsay

A local workman not far from me works in glass and makes mirrors and windows to order; I’d suspect he would make one if asked. I just may…
My first thought about a glass bridge was that the string would rest on a very hard, definite point; not soft like wood, and this may lend itself to a brighter clearer tone? (Just guessing…)
Re Martin’s point above on the tuning - I never really looked into these when I got my first one very recently and automatically tuned it to GDAE, same as all my other instruments - should it be CGDA?

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## Martin Jonas

> A local workman not far from me works in glass and makes mirrors and windows to order; I’d suspect he would make one if asked. I just may…
> My first thought about a glass bridge was that the string would rest on a very hard, definite point; not soft like wood, and this may lend itself to a brighter clearer tone? (Just guessing…)
> Re Martin’s point above on the tuning - I never really looked into these when I got my first one very recently and automatically tuned it to GDAE, same as all my other instruments - should it be CGDA?


For what it's worth, Jake Wildwood has posted here that he has never managed to make the original glass bridges work on the waldzithers he has restored, so you may be better off not spending too much energy on gettin a glass bridge made.  Both of mine have wood bridges and work fine.

Regarding tuning, the original tuning is in open C, so neither GDAE nor CGDA have anything to do with authenticity.  It's all a question of scale length and string gauges.  What's the scale length of yours?  They vary between about 41cm and 50cm.  At the longer end of this, you can make GDAE (one octave below mandolin) work just fine, albeit with a pretty thick gauge G string.  At the shorter end (where mine are), CGDA or DAEB for the four double courses are more likely to be successful, and for _very_ short waldzithers you can get away with mandolin tuning GDAE with a very thin E string.

Martin

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## Colin Lindsay

> What's the scale length of yours?  They vary between about 41cm and 50cm.  
> 
> Martin


Mine is 49cm length; Id like to experiment with the CGDA tuning - possible, without damage?

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## Marty Jacobson

Absolutely. Tenor guitars have up to 23" scale length and are tuned CGDA.
Try these string gauges:
A4  .010" PL == 16.04#
D4  .015" PL == 16.08#
G3  .023" PB == 15.52#
C3  .034" PB == 15.29#
F2  .052" PB == 15.74#

Or if that's too light:

A4  .011" PL == 22.32#
D4  .016" PL == 21.04#
G3  .025" PB == 20.96#
C3  .037" PB == 20.8#
F2  .056" PB == 20.81#

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## Martin Jonas

> Mine is 49cm length; I’d like to experiment with the CGDA tuning - possible, without damage?


That explains the difference between your experience and mine -- my two waldzithers are 43 and 41 cm, and the low G doesn't really work at that scale.  As Marty has said, with your scale length you should be able to make either GDAE or CGDA work just fine, depending on string gauges.

Martin

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## Rob Zamites

Kicking this thread back to life! Soon I will own a fine waldzither lovingly restored by dave17120 (Dave Hynds) and sold to garryireland - now to be mine as soon as it ships here to Michigan:



Dave tearing it up:


And Garry tearing it up:


Currently tuned GDAEB, and will likely stay that way. I cannot wait!  :Mandosmiley:

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## Jim Garber

Just curious about these. How do you deal with stringing these? Do they need loops on both ends like the Portuguese guitarras with those Preston tuners? No one seems to have any problems with that, at least on this thread.

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## Eddie Sheehy

i haven't changed strings on mine yet... only gets played a couple of times a year, when I'm on vacation in Ireland...

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## Rob Zamites

> Just curious about these. How do you deal with stringing these? Do they need loops on both ends like the Portuguese guitarras with those Preston tuners? No one seems to have any problems with that, at least on this thread.


Exactly how they're restrung. However, in this thread, I'd thought about replacing the tailpiece with an Allen MR-10 or TR-10 so I could use ball end strings....

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## Jim Garber

> Exactly how they're restrung. However, in this thread, I'd thought about replacing the tailpiece with an Allen MR-10 or TR-10 so I could use ball end strings....


As a few folks note on that linked thread: you still need to have a strong loop on both ends of each string.

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## Rob Zamites

> As a few folks note on that linked thread: you still need to have a strong loop on both ends of each string.


Maybe I'm missing your point. If I put on a tailpiece that accepts ball end strings, I'd only have to wind the opposite end instead of two ends for each string? What am i missing?

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## Jim Garber

Rob: you can buy strings with one loop, regardless of whether they have ballends or loop ends. What you can't buy AFAIK are double-looped strings. You shouldn't have to create loops on both ends in either case unless you buy unlooped strings. I was just asking how people deal with that. I guess they buy those string looper devices either from John Pearse or Fernandez.

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## Rob Zamites

> Rob: you can buy strings with one loop, regardless of whether they have ballends or loop ends. What you can't buy AFAIK are double-looped strings. You shouldn't have to create loops on both ends in either case unless you buy unlooped strings. I was just asking how people deal with that. I guess they buy those string looper devices either from John Pearse or Fernandez.


Ye gods, pardon me, I have had a strange few days off, with odd sleep patterns and a mushy brain. Of course it doesn't matter if I have ball or loop end strings, since both ends require loops for a waldzither. I need more...sleep, I guess...

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## Martin Jonas

> Rob: you can buy strings with one loop, regardless of whether they have ballends or loop ends. What you can't buy AFAIK are double-looped strings. You shouldn't have to create loops on both ends in either case unless you buy unlooped strings. I was just asking how people deal with that. I guess they buy those string looper devices either from John Pearse or Fernandez.


Fortunately, both of my waldzithers have standard geared tuners -- the Preston tuners were a marketing ploy by Böhm to make their instruments look more self-consciously ancient.  However, as it happens you _can_ buy double-looped strings, at least if you're setting a waldzither up in its traditional open-C tuning rather than mandola tuning.  Optima and Lenzner each offer waldzither strings which will be cut and looped to the precise length specified at the time of ordering.  Available from Schneider-Musik:

Optima
Lenzner

Martin

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## Colin Lindsay

https://soundcloud.com/corncrake/waldzither-sample

Playing a double jig called “Out on the Ocean” on my original glass-bridged Reiche model. A lovely warm sound even through a cheap built-in mic.

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## garryireland

[QUOTE=Colin Lindsay;1344656]https://soundcloud.com/corncrake/waldzither-sample

Playing a double jig called “Out on the Ocean” on my original glass-bridged Reiche model. A lovely warm sound even through a cheap built-in mic.[/QUOT
E]

Nicely played Colin.  Must get you down here for a gig sometime!

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## Mike Anderson

> Given the recent interest in stuff Waldzither, I thought to start a new thread.  I've had two, this "super spiffy" one with the scrolled peghead, restoration courtesy of our very own Jake Wildwood:
> 
> and my present trusty first one, their less ornate but still very very cool model (check out that binding):
> 
> 
> I've had both tuned GDAeb, with the G being single-stringed, and they are splendid that way.  A unique and somewhat "medieval" sound.  Anybody else?
> 
> MK


Well, something triggered some neurons this morning, remembering this instrument and the scrolled headstock: could it be that the well-known image of Andy Irvine playing what I'd always thought of as a Portuguese guitarra from the back of "The Well Below the Valley" is really another one of his waldzithers? 



There is plenty of video footage of him playing one with a plainer headstock, e.g.




If anyone knows if the album picture is really another waldzither that would be great!

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## Jim Garber

I would love to see a photo of a glass bridge that goes on these WZs. Is it compensated? Is it all glass or just the top?

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## Colin Lindsay

> I would love to see a photo of a glass bridge that goes on these WZs.


Your wish is my command! Just a prismatic glass strip with notches for the strings; nothing fancy. As I said earlier I had the notion that the glass edge, being sharp and therefore striking less of the string than a wooden one, may allow for a sharper sound - but this may be just fanciful on my part and have no basis in musical science whatsoever...

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## Jim Garber

It is interesting. The traditional bandolim for choro usually has a bone bridge for the same reason, I would imagine -- a nice bright tone. I would think tho that it is the substance rather than just the shape of the bridge top tho that might contribute something.

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## garryireland

> Well, something triggered some neurons this morning, remembering this instrument and the scrolled headstock: could it be that the well-known image of Andy Irvine playing what I'd always thought of as a Portuguese guitarra from the back of "The Well Below the Valley" is really another one of his waldzithers? 
> 
> 
> 
> There is plenty of video footage of him playing one with a plainer headstock, e.g.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone knows if the album picture is really another waldzither that would be great!


Nope its a guittara restrung as a manolin.  He did the same with the waldzither.  Never had 9 strings on his

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## Mike Anderson

> Nope its a guittara restrung as a manolin.  He did the same with the waldzither.  Never had 9 strings on his


Thanks Garry!!!

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## Rob Zamites

And another kick of this thread, just in case you missed my post in the other one I did:



It's almost certain the 3 course is going to be collecting more and more dust. 'Tis sad, aye, but 'tis true. I just really love the sound of the 'zither. I'm going to take her to Elderly soon and see about lowering the action just a hair, is a wee bit high for my tastes up around the 7th-12th frets.

All in all though, I'd love to see a modern revival of these oh-so-versatile instruments shoot...maybe I'll buy a Kawalek kit *after* I attend the workshop this coming spring, and try modding one up  :Whistling:

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## garryireland

> And another kick of this thread, just in case you missed my post in the other one I did:
> 
> 
> 
> It's almost certain the 3 course is going to be collecting more and more dust. 'Tis sad, aye, but 'tis true. I just really love the sound of the 'zither. I'm going to take her to Elderly soon and see about lowering the action just a hair, is a wee bit high for my tastes up around the 7th-12th frets.
> 
> All in all though, I'd love to see a modern revival of these oh-so-versatile instruments shoot...maybe I'll buy a Kawalek kit *after* I attend the workshop this coming spring, and try modding one up


Oh Rob. I think im gonna have to buy a new one now!

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## Rob Zamites

> Oh Rob. I think im gonna have to buy a new one now!


Dude, it's as versatile of an instrument as I've ever touched, given the scale length, there is more than a few tunings you could use, and with the longer end of that spectrum (43-50cm), add a capo and you're really talking versatile. I'm seriously considering putting the Pope 3 course up for sale, since it hasn't even been _*touched*_ since I got the 'zither!  :Disbelief:

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## garryireland

> Dude, it's as versatile of an instrument as I've ever touched, given the scale length, there is more than a few tunings you could use, and with the longer end of that spectrum (43-50cm), add a capo and you're really talking versatile. I'm seriously considering putting the Pope 3 course up for sale, since it hasn't even been _*touched*_ since I got the 'zither!


glad i could help.and glad it got a good home

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