# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  1938 F-5s!!!:  #2 and #3 from the 801-D batch

## Mandolin Central

An Absolutely Marvelous find just landed in Mandolin Central: a pair of consecutively serial numbered F-5s, number 2 and number 3 of the factory order number 801-D batch from 1938...and, they are in extremely fine, original showroom condition!  Just a handful of F-5s shipped that year, I know of a very famous one...Wonder if anyone knows the whereabouts of any of the other F-5s from this batch?  Especially 801-D1.

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Bernie Daniel, 

Darryl Wolfe, 

Greg Stec, 

Masterbilt, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

sgrexa, 

William Smith

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## sgrexa

Fascinating! Tony, are you able to tell us the story of how two consecutively numbered F5s from 1938 happened to remain in this apparently same excellent condition and arrive together at your shop some 76 years later?

Sean

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## Danny Clark

i use to have #95335 its a 1938 from the 801d batch ,i think Brian Eckenburg in CA has it now
Danny

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## mtucker

Aesthetically, I'm drawn to the one on the right .. shading on the body, peg head inlay, condition, etc., looks new! How do they play? Which sounds best?

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## LongBlackVeil

I like the one on the lefts burst better though, the left one is too big for me, I like a little more black on the edges. Pretty cool though, I'm wondering if they've stayed together all this time or if they're reuniting for the first time?

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## Darryl Wolfe

D-4 is known...95305

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## Capt. E

Wow! Does anyone know how many were in the batch...less than 10, I am sure.
Also, how do these sit virtually unplayed for almost 80 years.

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## Ken Waltham

Interesting, Tony. I found 801D-2 out of the woodwork in Toronto, Ontario. You may see it on the archives, photos in my living room.
It is 95335. I don't think it is one of those two, is it? It had the export stamp, "made in the USA" on the back of the peghead.
I also found another 1937 or 1938 out of the woodwork in Hamilton, Ontario. I looked, and it's not in the archives. I could only find a couple of photos here at home, and I failed to list the serial number on the photo. I wonder if that could have been 801D-1. Very possibly.
I sold it to Mitch Simpson years ago, and I think it went from there to Grisman.

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## Darryl Wolfe

> Interesting, Tony. I found 801D-2 out of the woodwork in Toronto, Ontario. You may see it on the archives, photos in my living room.
> It is 95335. I don't think it is one of those two, is it? It had the export stamp, "made in the USA" on the back of the peghead.
> I also found another 1937 or 1938 out of the woodwork in Hamilton, Ontario. I looked, and it's not in the archives. I could only find a couple of photos here at home, and I failed to list the serial number on the photo. I wonder if that could have been 801D-1. Very possibly.
> I sold it to Mitch Simpson years ago, and I think it went from there to Grisman.




Ken...I have you down as owning or owned 95305  the D-4..with export stamp

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## Mandolin Central

The famous one I referred to is "Hoss"...the amazing axe of the even more amazing Sam Bush.  To me the FON seems unreadable, although the mandolin archive lists it as part of the "C" batch, which would have put the manufacture date at 1937.  However, Joe Spann has kindly supplied us with records showing that Hoss was first sold on 15 November, 1938 to Mr. Alonze Workman in Freemont Furnace PA.  Is it possible Hoss sat around the factory for a year before shipping out?  Or, could Hoss, (pictured in the middle of the photo below) possibly be 801D-1???!!!

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## Capt. E

I understand that "Hoss" has also gone through quite a lot of modification to the point that it is very unique. Certainly a good ways from original condition.

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## Ken Waltham

> Ken...I have you down as owning or owned 95305  the D-4..with export stamp


OK, so I found both D-2 and D-4 here in Canada. I figured you would have a record of that from back in the day! Thanks, Darryl.

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## Tom C

More work than you can imagine. Sam told me of some horrific stage accidents once. Something like an amp falling into it..etc

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## Capt. E

You think Sam would be interested in both of the subject instruments above? Maybe he needs some parts.

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## Spruce

> You think Sam would be interested in both of the subject instruments above? Maybe he needs some parts.


Hoss's brother (one serial # removed) was for sale recently, and it was one of the finest mandolins I have ever played...  
If only...      :Frown:

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## f5loar

Does one have a pearl nut and the other a bone nut?  Sure look like they were made by the same guy(s) at Gibson.  I doubt by this time there were many left from the Loar era that could build the F5.  I recall looking at Hoss pretty close and remember a "C" there.
It's the other numbers hard to see.  Any from 1935 to 1939 are rare as in number made.

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## lenf12

Great find Tony!! Will they be offered for sale? I rather favor the one on the left but either would get lots of playing time at my house.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## sgrexa

> I doubt by this time there were many left from the Loar era that could build the F5.


Why, it was only 13 years later though the depression had occurred and that might have caused Gibson to lay off a good number of employees? I am curious about the people who actually did build the Loars and Ferns. Do we know much about them?

Sean

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## Joe Spann

> Why, it was only 13 years later though the depression had occurred and that might have caused Gibson to lay off a good number of employees? I am curious about the people who actually did build the Loars and Ferns. Do we know much about them? Sean


Is this a good place to mention my book..?

Joe

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sgrexa

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## Gary Hedrick

Yes

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## Gary Hedrick

and what hasn't Ken owned at one time?????

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## lenf12

Gary asked "and what hasn't Ken owned at one time?????"

I'm pretty sure Mr. Waltham has never owned my 1916 F-4 or my 1956 F-12 but I could be wrong. I'd love to see his collection of "keepers".

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## lenf12

Doesn't Barry Mitteroff own an F-5 from about this vintage? I believe his Gibby is currently in retirement as he's playing a great sounding Buckeye iirc.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## Gary Hedrick

I am not sure what constitutes a keeper for him.....but I guess I am not one for talking as many as I have gone through over the years.....just is that his are a notch or two above my level.....the man has really good taste in mandolins   


> Gary asked "and what hasn't Ken owned at one time?????"
> 
> I'm pretty sure Mr. Waltham has never owned my 1916 F-4 or my 1956 F-12 but I could be wrong. I'd love to see his collection of "keepers".
> 
> Len B.
> Clearwater, FL

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## f5loar

Barry's is a 41.  Different looking animal. Joe it's always time to mention your book and updates on your forthcoming book!

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Dick Staber's (Del McCoury's mandolin player in the early '70s) should be one of those 1938s. I played it decades ago, but remember that I really enjoyed it.  :Mandosmiley:

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## Capt. E

> Why, it was only 13 years later though the depression had occurred and that might have caused Gibson to lay off a good number of employees? I am curious about the people who actually did build the Loars and Ferns. Do we know much about them?
> 
> Sean


Actually, the layoff of Gibson employees probably began in the middle 20's. They had a big excess of production when LL left and the demand for mandolins was already rapidly declining.

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## Tom Smart

The tuners are gold-plated but it looks like the tailpieces are not. Is that just because the gold has worn off, or maybe because the tailpieces have been replaced?

Could an F5 from that time have originally come with gold-plated tuners along with a nickel-plated tailpiece?

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## uncle ken

The round end tuners from the 30's are solid brass, not gold plated.

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## Ken Waltham

> The round end tuners from the 30's are solid brass, not gold plated.


And... the gold plating does wear off the tailpiece covers. yes, they were definitely gold plated. Different than in the 20's, though. Those were "gold filled" a different process, I believe. It looks "softer", less shine. But, it wears off just as easily.

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