# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  Dawgology

## humblemex

I've started this topic as a place to share photos and memories of the birth and growth of "Dawg" music (and by extension "New Acoustic Music") and the mandolin revival of the 1970s. 

My clumsy attempt to define this form would be something like "acoustic instrumental music that integrates many genres, including bluegrass, jazz, classical and ethnic strains, into a seamless whole to create something new. Pieces are often composed with strict written parts performed by virtuoso musicians and combined with wide sections left open for improvisation." I welcome a refinement of this definition from anyone, because I'm sure it means more than what I've come up with.

Though there were hints and examples of the form before the landmark "The David Grisman Quintet" album (aka Kaleidoscope F-5) released in 1977, I believe that album codified the form and launched a thousand ships. Thus the title of this topic, which also happens to be one of my favorite Dawg tunes. It is not meant to be strictly limited to David Grisman though my contributions will primarily focus on him and the musicians he has worked with over the years both in and outside of his band.

I was extremely fortunate to be in the right place at the right time to befriend, interview, and photograph many of the artists who created this music. Since a previous topic has confirmed that there are a lot of us old f*rts here, I know there are others who witnessed this birth and were as dumbstruck as I by the DGQ and the other great musicians who have contributed to its growth. Two I personally know of and shared experiences with are Arthur Stern and Bruce Harvie. To really make this work, I implore them and all others who were changed by this music to contribute their memories and photos. In particular, I would really like to hear from Niles and others across the pond on its international impact and their personal approach to the mandolin.

The images I will post have been sitting in my files for as long as 30+ years. Many have been published but many more have never been seen. I can't think of a better bunch of folks to share them with or who would appreciate them more. My only ground rule is that they stay here in the Cafe. Please do not post them on any other forum or website without asking me first. They are copyrighted, and I ask that you respect that. If you know people with photos and memories to share who are not on this forum, please direct them here. Let's create a collective history right here on the Café.

And, now, on with the show.

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andymando, 

brunello97, 

mcgroup53

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## humblemex

I knew who David Grisman was from his work with the Dead, Old and In The Way, and Maria Muldaur, but I didnt get knocked over the head until I saw a version of the Great American String Band play at the Golden Gate Bluegrass Festival in September of 1974. The band that night consisted of Richard Greene on fiddle, David Nichtern on guitar, Jerry Garcia on banjo, and Taj Mahal on bass. Id never heard anything like it, but I recognized the elements. I was particularly knocked out by the Hot Club stuff and Davids tunes, and it immediately set me on a significantly deeper path into acoustic string music. I dug out everything available of Django and the Hot Club in the Guitar Player library, got turned on to Eddie Lang and Joe Venuti, and re-awoke my interest in bluegrass.
I didnt see David play again until July of 1976. This time it was a gig billed as the Great American Music Band, a one-shot at San Francisco's Great American Music Hall featuring Dawg, Tony Rice , J. D. Crowe, Richard Greene, Jerry Douglas, and Todd Phillips on bass. They were great, of course, but in the middle of the show, David announced he had a new band he was recording with that had two mandolins, and introduced the David Grisman Quintet with Tony, Darol, Todd, and Bill Amatneek. They only played two or three tunes, but I was hammered by the sound and the concept. Unfortunately, I was so captured by the music, I forgot to take many pictures. Ive got only three frames of that first sighting. I cant remember what tunes they played but I know one of them was Ricochet because one frame has David, Todd, and Darol all playing mandolin. I couldnt believe how complete the vision and execution was. I was an instant Dawghead.

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Drew Egerton, 

J Walsh, 

Lee Lauridsen, 

Mandobart

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## SternART

Jon, there were a few other GASB gigs with the lineup of:
 Great American String Band 
  * Jerry Garcia - banjo, vocals
  * David Grisman - mandolin, vocals
  * David Nichtern - guitar, vocals
  * Richard Greene - fiddle
  * Taj Mahal - bass 
  * Buell Neidlinger - bass (4-26-1974 to 6-13-1974)
 Their set lists looked like this:
 Colored Aristocracy, Cedar Hill, I'll Be A Gambler If You Deal The Cards
My Plastic Banana Is Not Stupid, Moonlight Waltz
Swing '42, Methodist Preacher
Set II
Limehouse Blues, Bud's Bounce, Dawg's Bull
Russian Lullaby, Virgin's Lament, Swing '42
Drink Up And Go Home, Dawg's Rag

I know Maria Mauldaur played with them at a few gigs & they opened for the Grateful Dead at least once. There are 4 or 5 tapes floating around. I saw them at the Keystone Berkeley twice, back when Maria had a hit with Midnight at the Oasis, but she wasn't with them all the time. Buell Neidlinger was in there for a few gigs too, on bass. There were a few later gigs at the Great American Music Hall in SF and the band took on the name of the venue, or Great American Music Band. I saw two or three gigs there in 1975. This was without Jerry & Taj, a band fronted by David & Richard & really the precurser of the DGQ. As I recall it was mostly instrumental, with already orchestrated versions of Dawg's Rag & maybe Thailand among others. I was following David whenever I saw a Bay Area gig, everything I heard about after OAITW. Later, when I was archivist for David I know there is a tape of another even earlier version of the band w/o Jerry and Taj with John Carlini and a woman on rhythm guitar, a bass player,and then featuring Richard & David. My tape collection got flooded out about 15 years ago, and I think I still have a tape of the earlier band.....I'll try & ask David about it. Richard left in 1975 to work with Loggins and Messina. The earliest gigs of the David Grisman Quintet, were pre Bill Amatneek and had Joe Carroll on bass. The first official gig was in Bolinas, CA in 1976, which I bootleged an audience tape of with a Nakamici cassette player. Joe was at that gig & did a tour of Japan with the band. If I'm not mistaken Bill Keith & Richard Greene were on that tour, and there were 2 sets, a bluegrass set with Richard & Bill..then a DGQ set. I was taping live shows by then, with David's permission using a Revox 1/2 track, with separate mics on each stand. This is around when Bill Amatneek came on board as bass player, which was pretty early. I continued to tape the local shows for several years in the early days of Dawg Music, and mix many of the gigs from the board. Todd Phillips built and repaired mandolins in the back of my art studio, and with Darol also living in Oakland, my studio became a place where the band would hang. I would drive Todd & Darol to gigs in my Citroen convertible, with the Revox in the trunk. In about a year there was a change in the lineup, Amatneek was out & Todd Phillips took over the bass spot with young Mike Marshall joining as 2nd mandolin. Mike's on Hot Dawg, playing some parts for David, then suffering from tendinitis. This was the transition to one of my favorite versions of the DGQ.

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j. condino, 

Lee Lauridsen

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## Monte37

Hey guys, note also that Bill Amatnick (?spelling) is the man on bass, and was for a long while. A good ole friend from Mill Valley.
If its got three mando's, it is Ricochette. I was at this gig as well as you two. Matter of fact, all of the gigs you state.
I too am an old ####...I was even censored in that string.
HI Art!

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## Monte37

oops, I see it, Bill, was there somewhere in all those words. A vertual tome of messaging.

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## dtb

splurge this past week-end picking up Grisman's....DGBE and travaersata....like both very much. I got to see the first quintet, and the latest a few times. highlights of my life for sure.

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## humblemex

As Arthur says, there were several variations of the Great American String Band. Somewhere around here I've got a cassette with seven tunes on it from a gig with Richard Greene, John Carlini, and a woman named Ellen Kearney on rhythm guitar. I remember Arthur and I spent an afternoon listening to tapes of many DGQ gigs and I dubbed a few down to cassette with Dawg's permission.

Dawg says the original DGQ rehearsed for almost a year before doing their first gig. The first gig was at the Bolinas Community Center in Jan of 1976, and it's possible to hear two cuts, Cedal Hill and Theme from Capone, from that first gig on the DGQ 20 anthology. T. Rice plays mandocello on the second one.

In May, the band took a short tour to Japan, where they received with great enthusiasm. Here is one of my prized possessions--a poster from that tour. Gotta believe there can't be more than a few of them.

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j. condino, 

Lee Lauridsen

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## SternART

Thanks Jon, a net search for Ellen Kearney, puts her on a Maria Mauldaur album & on a Carly Simon album.......sounds reasonable.
That poster is the Japanese tour with I mentioned with Joe Carroll, Bill Amatneek started in after that with the DGQ. I think I 
still have one of those posters too.....wonder what we could get for them on EBAY?! Nice look for Tony, eh?! Todd too......
The Blue Bell mandolin that was my first F5 came back with them from that tour. After Todd hot rodded it, wasn't too bad, for
the era anyway......not the best era for mandos, guys comin' up now have so many better choices.

There is a great article in the current Fretboard Journal on Tony Rice, or more to the point, his legendary D-28. Great photos
and a nice article by Art Dudley. Tony is the cover & featured article.

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## bgmando

Ah, the 70s. Pungent smoke in the air and hope everywhere.

  And a DGQ LP vinyl disc to further blow a small-town Midwestern boy's mind.

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## Monte37

Hey Art,
I still have the program "book" from that tour. I remember the phonetic spelling of the song titles.

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## SternART

Here is an innerestin' story.......about that first DGQ record.....a college kid was at a party, heard the record playing, went over & checked it out, to see what the heck was playing. Next day went out & bought himself a mandolin. The story is about Joe Craven. How 'bout that.....eventually ends up a member of the DGQ for like 15+ years. That album inspired a whole generation to take up the instrument, much like Chris Thile's playing today has planted a new crop, or Big Mon's playing had done the same for an earlier generation. I'm still trying to play that first album, getting it up to speed is a problem I've encountered. Those guys were pretty darn good back in the day & now they have had 30 years to practice & get better. It has certainly been fun following the careers of the DGQ alumni. I see the Mandolin Symposium, or the Mandolin Cafe, or Comando, as an extension of the spirit that started with the Mandolin World News. "Mandolin Player Unite"

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## Scotti Adams

..pics..I wanna see pics...

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## mandopete

Hey Jon - we missed you at Wintergrass this year!

Sorry I don't have any photos to contribute, but I have done several interviews with The Dawg as part of Wintergrass and I also got to thinking about how Dawg music has always been a big part of that festival. This year it was well represented by two DGQ alumni in Mike Marshall and Joe Craven.

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## mythicfish

Let me know when we get to the part when D(aw)G claims paternity of Anna Nicole Smiths baby.

Curt

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## SternART

Wasn't it ol' Bill that said something like....."That don't have no part of nothing!"

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## Paul Kotapish

My first exposure to David Grisman was through the rock world and his work with Peter Rowan in Earth Opera, their psychedelic roots/folk/rock ensemble from the late '60s. I still have both of those very strange recordings, but I can't say that I play them much. I also took note of his guest appearances on _Workingman's Dead_ and _American Beauty_. Shortly after that I picked up on his bluegrass work with Red Allen and the Kentuckians from a few years earlier. Those County label sides they recorded are still worth listening to.

I didn't get to see him live until late 1974 or so when a version of the Great American Music Band opened for Maria Muldaur in Portland, Oregon. They played a stunning opening set and then some of them joined Maria's band on selected numbers. Grisman had played on Maria's eponymous debut which was enjoying a fair amount of success at the time. That was one of the greatest concerts ever. 

Never got to hear to original DG quintet with Todd Phillips on mandolin, but I heard many concerts by later iterations, including that amazing tour they did with Stephane Grappelli shortly after Mike Marshall joined the band. That was another memorable night.

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## SternART

I never caught Earth Opera live, but did see SeaTrain with Rowan & Richard Greene.
OAITW was my first exposure to Grisman.......couldn't figure out who was the guy
stealing the show from Jerry, this was at the old Keystone Berkeley. I talked to David at
the break & became interested in the mandolin from that point. I didn't even know
about Monroe, or Django & Stephane at this point, Never heard of Homer & Jethro. but started 
researching the orgins of the tunes. I'd seen Clarence White with the Byrds, but didn't know 
about Roland, or even the Muleskinner Band till years later. Being a Deadhead & following Garcia was 
like Roots Music 101 and set me off on the right path.

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## AlanN

> including that amazing tour they did with Stephane Grappelli shortly after Mike Marshall joined the band. That was another memorable night.


Yes, I caught that band at Carnegie Hall, 1980 or 81. It was special.

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## fwoompf

This topic is awesome. As someone who wasn't alive to see my favorite DGQ lineup (Grisman/Anger/Marshall/O'Conner/Wasserman) it's been a real treat. That story about Joe Craven is great!

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## humblemex

After the show, I made a point of going backstage to meet David and Tony. I was a writer and the staff photographer for Guitar Player by then, so they were happy to talk to me since I was also obviously a fan. We hit if off right away, and Dawg invited me out to his house to hear some of the final mixes for Kaleidoscope F-5.

In February 1977, Bill Monroe played the Great American Music Hall and David invited me along to meet him. When we entered Bill's dressing room an hour before the show, he was talking to a fan who had brought at least 20 albums for him to sign. Bill cheerfully signed them all. Tony and mandolinist Butch Waller of High Country were also there. Naturally, Big Mon commanded the room, and the disciples were genuinely humble and respectful as he picked up his mandolin and demonstrated why he was the Godfather.

David and Tony each had their instruments but only Tony joined in. As Dawg told me later, another mandolinist simply did not compete with The Man unless specifically invited. Besides, they had a history. At one point, Dawg was widely considered the heir apparent before he stepped away from bluegrass and started writing and playing music that definitely did not conform to Monroe's specifications. After a few tunes, Bill asked David if he still remembered how to play bluegrass, and they ripped into a smoldering "Rawhide" backed by Tony. When they finished, he asked Tony for his guitar, reminding T (as if he didn't know) that he had played guitar on "Muleskinner Blues," his first recording as a bandleader after leaving brother Charlie. 

All in all, it was an otherworldly experience. Then we went upstairs and watched Bill, Kenny Baker, Butch Robins, and Wayne Lewis tear it up for an enthusiastic full house.

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Drew Egerton

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## wah

Amen to that Garnet! Fantastic topic. We've got a bootleg cd of the Great American String Band (it's my girlfriends - she's a Jerry worshipper and grabs anything he's on) so it's good to read something about that band. Speaking of my girlfriend, she gave me DGQ 20 for Valentine's day. I was blown away - especially by the first cd that has so much stuff I never heard before. And SternART thank you for that statement, "being a Deadhead and following Garcia was like Roots Music 101." Since I had grown up listening to old Country and some Bluegrass I didn't always appreciate it at the time but Jerry and the rest of the guys opened our eyes to a lot of great music. 

Joe Craven - for years I went to everywhere he played in Davis and just thought of him as a rythm guy delving into all this Latin and World stuff. I don't think I saw him with mandolin or fiddle until I saw him with Grisman.

Wayne

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## humblemex

Bill and T.

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## bgmando

Jon -- thanks so much for posting that photo of Bill Monroe playing Tony's guitar.

  If I'm remembering right -- I've got it in a Pickin' magazine that's in a stack of stuff I've saved out in a box in the garage.

  I loved acoustic music from childhood but was not exposed to anything but snatches on television here and there, until I bought Nitty Gritty's Uncle Teddy album.
 From there -- other things followed, and I bought the Sea Train albums just because it listed a fiddler on it.
  I heard DGQ before I heard the old individual Monroe LPs.

  But at some point, I began to explore Monroe.
  The photo of Monroe playing Tony's guitar, with T looking on, really struck home with me at that time.
 Believe it or not, it's a picture that comes into my mind to this day, fairly often.
  Your photograph made a deep, and recurring impression on me. One of the geat bluegrass pics ever.
  Great to see it again.

  MORE!

Bill Graham -- (the journalist, not the fillmore one that's done gone on)

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## jasona

Many thanks for this oustanding thread.

In case you didn't know, this MP3 by the Creaking Trees, the Dynamic Duo, is written for DGQ members Darrol Anger and Mike Marshall. It makes for a nice soundtrack for reading these posts.

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## SternART

Hey Wayne.....I first saw Joe Craven jamming mandolin at the Grass Valley festival several years before he met David.
He was in a Django/Swing type jam & just tearing it up......I even went & woke up my friends to hear him, I knew he
had it & wasn't surprised at all when he made it into the DGQ. Joe is incredibly musical, it just oozes out of him.
And so versatile...... need twin mando....need a fiddle solo.....rhythm ace.....comic relief, Joe was a cool addition & he was 
jammin' at that festival with Rick Montgomery who also joined the band with Joe in a package deal.

Great Big Mon shots Jon.....must have been the next tour Monroe did thru SF, or possibly the prior or next night.......again at the Music Hall, 
when Mike was already in the band......I got to go backstage with them & David told Bill this young kid was pretty good on the manalin......Bill 
asked Mike to play, they broke out their mandolins & I was treated to some triple mandolin. BTW Mike ripped it and Bill really lit up with a BIG smile....
Bill also totally ripped it on his solo, just to show who was boss. I got in trouble with Bill, just a year later.....Frank Wakefield opened for Monroe 
& had Darol Anger & Todd Phillips in the band, this was also being broadcast live over the radio in Oct of '78. Since I taped the DGQ all the time 
at the Music Hall & everyone on their staff had seen me around, I just took the Revox and set up with the radio crew, in the room downstairs next 
to the dressing room. In the break between his sets Bill looked in there and saw the reel to reel machine & freaked, asked who I was.  
I told him I was there with Frank's band, loved the BG music and since anyone could tape it at home, I saw no harm in taping it from the GAMH. 
He made me erase the tape right there in front of him.....I guess he worried about the quality of the tape, but anyone could have taped it at home. 
Boy...busted by Bill Monroe , now thats the good ol' days!

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## SternART

I used to drive Mike & Darol to the gigs.....top down on the DS Cabriolet & they would practice on
the way to the gig....driving IN THE CAR!!!....now a '64 Citroen convertible is a rare sighting anyway, but
with a longhaired guy fiddling in the back seat, and an even longer haired guy riding shotgun & playing
mando (those were Todd's glory days with long hair), and an even longer haired ponytailed guy driving,
we must have been a sight to behold. They played a lot of hole in the wall clubs in those days between the
good gigs like the GAMH. I remember one Keystone Berkeley gig, early on.....maybe 6 or 7 was all there
were in the audience. Dawggy came out & asked them if they should play, the band was about as big as the 
audience that night, but they were privvy to TWO smokin' sets of Dawg music.....this was before the first 
record hit & they moved a rung up the ladder of show biz success. I KNEW how great David's music & band 
were & felt privileged to be so close to all that creative energy.....not only are they talented, but they are 
very bright guys too. David was feeding them jazz records, stuff like Bill Evans Trio, or 50's Miles Davis, we loved Oliver 
Nelson's arrangements....Blues and the Abstract truth etc. The DGQ went thru a growth spurt, John Carlini was out for
arranging the King of the Gypsies movie score, and Tony Rice became a jazz chord monster, from jammin' with
John.....everyone was improving all the time & David kept honing the arrangements & allowing room for creative 
soloing....everyone was really dedicated & working hard to improve as musicians. Great energy to be around.
I'm really proud on them boys, watching their careers blossom for 30 years has been great fun.

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## Scotti Adams

..this is great stuff...keep it rolling.

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## jmcgann

A few days after I turned 18, the DGQ played their first tour, and I was new at Berklee. Went to the show and...

I Became A Man!!!     

Seriously- that, to me, threw down the gauntlet, big time. Got me a metronome and realized how far I had to go!!!

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## Patrick Melly

Arthur wrote: "They played a lot of hole in the wall clubs in those days between the good gigs "

My first DGQ sighting (maybe their 2nd or 3rd gig) was at a slightly surreal venue - they played at an elderly lady's storefront "opera house" out in the fogbound avenues of San Francisco - it was filled with the lady's ferns and cats and she was scooting around to rescue both from the crowd. It was sold out when we got there - when the ticket guy walked away we followed him in. I had come to hear Tony Rice - I was learning to flatpick guitar then - but we were unprepared for what we heard inside. The format was as described above - bluegrass(y) before the break, DGQ after.
The first set was dazzling enough: Richard Greene and Darol doing twin fiddles on one mike (quite a visual, given their respective heights); Bill
Keith wowing my banjo-picking girlfriend (I'm still married to her, sold the banjo); T. Rice as still as a statue while blazing away on these impossibly
fast & cool solos; Grisman bopping around as if possessed. 
Then the DGQ played, and changed everything I thought I knew about acoustic music. I like to think the whole crowd knew something very
different was unfolding in front of us. The crowd was certainly hanging on every note.
After that show I borrowed my mom's Vega cylinderback and started trying to find the territory the DGQ introduced us to that night. Not there yet.

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## SternART

Patrick......was that the gig the PA broke in the middle & we somehow patched it back together to work again?

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## Monte37

My notes:
I remember all the small "church/hall" gigs that were totally accoustic where Rudy would get up and do some tunes.
I remember Rudy correcting my music at his J street candy store, and all the times he visited our group when we played at the GMH.
I remember starting the count of Ricochette to Hal Blaine.
...all the people I met as result of David any time I visited or at gigs...everyone really.
Daryl living downstairs at David's and always playing...always.
I remember that Joe Craven first played his fiddle case with his hands.
I always remember Art and his omnipresent tape machine..no MP3 then.
I remember how we all felt we were witness to something special.
 I remember first seeing David play after us at the Stanford KZOO radio station with Skunk Cabbage. David and Clarence.
I remember asking David for lessons at Gryphon Music, and him saying yes...I end with my start.

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## humblemex

Great stuff indeed, Arthur. I knew you'd have the goods. Lots of good stuff from others, too. Can you remember where and when we met? Was it at the Family Light Music School gig in Sausalito five days after the Monroe show? That was actually the first time I saw a full DGQ set, and I knew then I was going to be hanging around as close as they would let me. I loved the whole sound but the combination of Dawg and T was unprecedented and irresistible. The Gasoline Brothers, indeed."

If we didn't meet there, it must have been backstage at the Music Hall six weeks later in March, 1977. Let us be clear: Arthur Stern is arguably Dawghead #1. We were instant musical soul mates, bound by a shared love of the DGQ, the Grateful Dead, fruits of the earth, and the mandolin. The Dead connection is no fluke; Dawgheads # 2 and #3 are likely Jay Ceballos and Mary Barry, two kind souls and musicians who have been Deadheads pretty much as long as there have been Deadheads.

When I first started taking photography seriously in the late '60s, I began a log that tracked every roll. Each entry has a roll number, the date it was exposed, the subject(s), and the venue. Because of that, I can be pretty darn precise in establishing dates when things happened. I can't tell you how happy I am that I made that decision; the log and my contact sheets are my journals.

The Monroe gig I talked about was the year before Frank opened for him. That was in Oct, 1978, and Frank's band consisted of Darol Anger, Todd Phillips, Kathy Kallick, and an unidentified banjo player. I'll bet someone here knows. I definitely remember you getting busted by the man himself. Hope you knew somebody that was taping at home.

FWIW, I believe Joe Craven ranks with Tony Rice, Darol Anger, Mark O'Connor, and Mike Marshall in the Hall of Fame of most-gifted, influential DGQ alumni.

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## Dan Cole

This entire thread is great. I think it really reinforces something my dad told me a long time ago. He said "if you want to bowl 300 games, you have to bowl with guys that bowl 300 games." Same goes for the mandolin, or anything else one wants to aspire to. Being lucky enough to be in such an influencial circle in anything you do really is a key to success. 

Art, et al, I envy you!

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## tjg

A book should be written! Great info!

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## Patrick Melly

Arthur wrote:".....was that the gig the PA broke in the middle..."

I don't remember a total breakdown - I do recall many audience calls for more volume for individual instruments, to the point 
that David said something like "You go back there and tell them - I can't even deal with telling them." 
Arthur, do you think that show got taped? It was very early.

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## AlanN

Enjoyable reading, for sure. And sure beats reading about Anna Nicole Smith  

And Tim Ware fits in here somewhere, as he was in a parallel universe, mando wise. I remember reading that he saw the DGQ in a church in the day, and was somewhat crest-fallen, as he was doing something similar, but different, with mandolins.

It was all good, still is, actually.

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## Scotti Adams

..hey..Ive got a Tim Ware Lp...nice stuff.

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## SternART

Jon, I can't recall if we were introduced in Sausalito, or if I just saw you hangin'.....I remember you were always so discreet, you'd zip down close to the stage a coupla times a show, stay low, shoot & disappear. And once you were "in the club" backstage, we were almost invisable. As long as we didn't interrupt & let them take care of bidness, we were welcome to be in there. The band would circle up & reherse changes in the harmony lines, arrangements, order of solos, etc right down to the wire.....how did they remember all that stuff???.....David drove the bus, but it was like spontaneous group art, created right before our eyes. That last photo, the "Gasoline Brothers" was my favorite time backstage. Tony used to tune up and play the same exact run every time.....and that intuitive thing he & David share is a special musical brotherhood, there was just an inner joy they had hearing & playing off of each other. And the TONE of those two players with great instruments, heard from up close is etched into my soul......so many times, the band would stand in a half circle around me for one more rehersal tune, before hitting the stage.....now that is surround-sound! I made a point of going downstairs at the Music Hall, to greet them as they made their was back to the dressing room, to congratulate them on a good set.......was talkin to Tony once & telling him I thought this particular section of his solo in 16-16 was incredible......He said heeeey....I was thinking that too, I wonder what I was playing?!......he was just "in the zone". Darol & Mike lived virtually next door to each other in houses in the Oakland flatlands & were "always" playing together. They developed a special bond & musical partnership that lives till today. Another great combination. A vivid memory I have was listening to Todd teach his old mando parts to Mike.....all day..... while I was working on a stained glass project in my art studio. When Todd switched to bass, Mike became the 2nd mandolin voice in the band. Marshall was like a human tape recorder, heard it, played it back once or twice & he had it. And the kid could just swing the rhythm, his heros were Sam & David & his rhythm was like a combination.....when Mike showed up on David's porch, from Florida, he already had learned most of the licks on the first album.......Jon....you mention Jay & Mary, they became regulars backstage too, and now years later play in the Djunkyard Gypsies, a swing band up in the Grass Valley area. I remember them coming up to the soundboard & asking if they could meet David, so I took them backstage.....wasn't like there was any security or anything....anyone could have met them if they wanted to....and do you remember Darol's grandmother?.....she brought baked good to all the Music Hall gigs.....after the first record came out those Fri/Sat night gigs, every month or two at the Music Hall were a special part of the genesis of the DGQ.....I'll tell you though, I wasn't a player till '79 when I figured I was hangin' around all this incredible music, maybe I should give it a try too, Todd loaned me a Gibson A model, and showed me how to hold a pick & David already had Ten Tunes in Nine Keys out & that had a coupla Dawg tunes in there & I was off.....Marshall really knows how to teach too, many of my early lessons were with Mike and ideas he shared with me were usually over my head, but later as I developed enough to understand what he was talking about, I saw the basic building blocks of music were being made simple....he always could see exactly where I was, teach me something I could work into, but also leave me with some hot lick that I could do now.....so I saw immediate progress & in my world of puppy Dawg music.....I was jammin'.....once he made an observation to me about Sam & David that really hit home for me. Mike said that Sam's playing went in spirals and David's was more symmetric......perfect way to communicate music to a visual artist.......playing the mandolin is one of the hardest things I've ever tried to do, knowing world class players I saw what was possible, but it also gave me a much better understanding of how talented they really are. In that respect these guys are really musician's musicians.....you almost have to play yourself to understand the level of difficuly and the creativity & proficiency in their playing. So many of the audience members were also musicians....Tim Ware was mentioned, Bob Alekno, Dix Bruce, Dave Balakrishnan, Becky Smith, Richard Sommers, Jim Kirkland, Tom Rozum among others, many got involved in the Mandolin World News. A "New Acoustic" scene evolved in the Bay Area, mandolins were cool, and there were a lot bands, some shortlived for a few gigs others with longer duration. Many of these had DGQ members, moonlighting or experimenting with their own tunes and ideas. It was a cool era to be in the Bay Area.

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## mandopete

A book, I agree! #DAWG music is so important and it sounds like you folks may have enough material and pictures possibly for a book.

Speaking of great stories, I love the one that David tells about meeting Todd Phillips. #He said that Todd approached him with a deal to trade mandolin bridges that Todd made for mandolin lessons.

Grisman summed it up with, "pretty soon I didn't need any more mandolin bridges and Todd didn't need any more lessons."

Great stuff.

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## bgmando

SternArt -- wonderful stuff, thanks.

  In the Midwest -- So many of us had loved the Lovin Spoonful and Byrds and Buffalo Springfield. Bands that all mixed folkie/acoustic stuff with rock. Then there was The Band and Dirt Band.

  So many folks were in a "folk-rock-mixed" mode as they learned to play, formed bands and jammed.

  Hearing the DGQ first album froze people in their tracks.

  Suddenly there was a swing from folk-rock leanings to jazz among the cool and proficient players. And as an antidote to Dawg overdose -- a push to sharpen Monroe and rootsy tone tunes in the repertoire.

  I think delights found inside the door Dawg opened made players suddenly look for other doors they may have missed, too.

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## humblemex

> A book, I agree! #DAWG music is so impotant and it sounds like you folks may have enough material and pictures possibly for a book.


First things first. Funny, but I knew I was documenting something important from the first time I saw these guys. Dawg knew, too, and we talked about "the book" that would happen someday. In fact, after David gave me my first good mandolin in 1979, an f-style Blue Bell, I promised him I would provide the photos gratis. Here we are almost 30 years later and that book seems a steep hill to climb. That's why I started this topic. I love the idea of a collective experience, and the web gives us options we never dreamed of long ago. Believe me, it's already occurred to me that we can also post mp3s.

My general plan is to introduce the photos and commentary more or less chronologically. One great benefit to this form is that people can post their comments and images in any order as their memories are tweaked. The whole chronology can be sorted out later. I've got a lot of images and I'm in no hurry to get them all posted. To a certain extent, it behooves us to stretch this out and get as many knowledgeable voices involved as we can.

Tim Ware was certainly a pioneer. His "Tim Ware Group," released in 1980 on Kaleidoscope, was one earliest examples of bands who adopted Dawg's example. Unfortunately, I don't think that's ever made it to CD although I understand there is a "Greatest Hits" package available from Menus and Music (http://www.menusandmusic.com), a mail order web site run by Sharon O'Connor, the former cellist in Tim's band. I can't figure out how to find it on her site, however. Tim now builds beautiful websites for a living, including Arthur Stern's if I'm not mistaken.

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## mandopete

A little off track, but your comment about "knowing this was something important" makes me think about what Chris Thile is doing today.

So is this idea going to merely live as a thread here on the cafe or is there some plan to publish these sort of memoirs?

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## humblemex

> So is this idea going to merely live as a thread here on the cafe or is there some plan to publish these sort of memoirs?


As I said, first things first. Let's see where it goes. Meanwhile, it's free and happening right now here on the Cafe.

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## mandopete

Merci Phil,

That's some incredible stuff and with the score to boot.

Tres Magnifque!

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## SternART

It was a long stretch between Marshall & then Thile showing up. I thought Chris' How to Grow Band with Bryan Sutton
was like the next generation's Strength In Numbers Band. A nice growth step for Chris, I enjoyed them at Wgrass.
Unfortunately they didn't play this Blind leading the Blind (first movement) I've heard about. While Chris & these
other young musicians are major talents, the difference with the DGQ was IMO the compositions that Grisman wrote. His
body of incredible original music & arrangements has passed the test of time. That first album sounds as fresh today 
THIRTY years later, as it did in the late 70's. I look forward to seeing where Thile can take the mandolin.

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## AlanN

> #That first album sounds as fresh today 
> THIRTY years later, as it did in the late 70's.


With you there, buddy.

As is often the case, at least for me, the first is the best. I group the 2 Grisman albums, Kaleidoscope F-5 and Hot Dawg together as coming from the same space, largely because of Tony Rice.

Spectrum was a band in the late 70's with Gaudreau, Fleck, Lawson. They put out 3 records, the first, to me, is the best.

Doyle Lawson's first Quicksilver LP is da bomb, in spite of the elec. bass. Will The Circle Be Unbroken 1 beats 2. 
Country Gazzette first record is great.

You get my idea.

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## Scotti Adams

..yea..I always thought the first Manzanita was the best too  #Seriously...does anyone know what # Pag Doyle recorded that first Lp with? That thing was huge sounding.

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## humblemex

I can't pinpoint the month that Kaleidoscope F-5 was released but it was probably sometime in the spring of 1977. Right away it created an identity for the band and generated airplay. As we have since discovered, it also galvanized acoustic musicians everywhere. Mike Marshall is just one of many players who have told me that album literally changed their life.

I guess that shouldn't have been so surprising when you think about what hearing Dawg music for the first time did to Tony Rice. In a 1977 Guitar Player interview, he described how Bill Keith had recruited him to play on his album, Some Bluegrass, for Rounder. At the time, Tony was the bluegrass guitarist and the bluegrass vocalist playing in the hottest bluegrass band anywhere, J.D. Crowe and New South with Ricky Skaggs, Jerry Dougas, and Bobby Slone.

"When I got to the gig, Grisman was there," he recalls. "This cat really fascinated me because before we even got to the studio to start the album, he played a tape of him and Richard Greene with The Great American Music Band. From the minute he put the tape on, it sounded like something I had always heard in my head, acoustic instrumental music arranged like we're playing it now--without vocals. All of a sudden this guy shows up and he has this tape of him doing it. I wanted to part of it right then, but I was playing six nights a week with J.D.

"David and I kept in close contact, and he kept asking me when I was going to come to California. I was dying to but I had a commitment to J.D. and was making a living. In hindsight, I should have gone with David right then. I finally just had to play this music so I moved to California in October 1975 and slept on Grisman's couch for months while we rehearsed for hours every day."

With the album, 1977 was the breakout year for Dawg music. I must have seen the band perform 10 times that year. I know it had a big effect in U.S. but I'm curious how it long it took for its impact to be felt overseas. The mandolin family had long been a staple of British, Irish, and Scottish traditional music with outstanding players such as Dave Swarbrick, Andy Irvine, and Mick Moloney. Anybody who was there who can shed light on that?


Tony Rice, Bill Amatneek, John Carlini backstage at the Great American Music Hall in San Francisco.

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## SternART

Possibly that photo taken with John Carlini was the era where they were working on the King of the Gypsies soundtrack. The move was released in '78...and as I recall the first record was heard by Federico De Laurentiis, son of Dino De Laurentiis the famed movie producer, and Grisman got the gig for the soundtrack. Carlini at the time was conducting and composing for the Ice Capades. I remember him coming to the Bay Area when scheduling permitted, taking David's Gypsy tunes and orchestrating them for the symphonic parts of the soundtrack. This was the movie where David hired Stephanne Grappelli to both play and act in the movie. In fact Grisman, Carlini, Andy Statman, Matt Glaser, Buell Neidlinger and others became the band appearing in several scenes in the movie, most notably the Gypsy wedding, and a funeral scene. They had David shave his beard, for the only time I can remember, except for a big handlebar moustache. This was just one of the doors that opened from the first DGQ record. Too bad the movie wasn't a BIG hit, so the music would have been heard by more people. There were plans for a soundtrack album, that were scrapped when the movie flopped. I think it was even recorded but never released. A medley of tunes from the movie became a part of the set list in this era. But one thing leads to another and the Grappelli connection was made and Stephanne then recorded a few tunes on the DGQ's next album, Hot Dawg.

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## glauber

> Jon, there were a few other GASB gigs with the lineup of:
>  Great American String Band 
>   * Jerry Garcia - banjo, vocals
>   * David Grisman - mandolin, vocals
>   * David Nichtern - guitar, vocals
>   * Richard Greene - fiddle
>   * Taj Mahal - bass 
>   * Buell Neidlinger - bass (4-26-1974 to 6-13-1974)


I found a torrent for GASB, June 13 1974, Berkeley, CA

It doesn't seem to be well seeded right now, though.  
[edit: it actually downloaded pretty quickly, in case anyone else wants to try]

I was curious about Taj on bass (though from the dates you mention, he wasn't in this one). How amazing how many of my favorite Americans are connected.

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## mandocrucian

Jon, 

Got any photos of Dan Hicks & His Hot Licks? Great west coast acoustic string swing, but overlooked/underappreciated by the grassy contingent because none of them came out of that genre, and, it predated the dawg stuff by at least 5+ years and the records (in the stores) were always filed in the "rock" bins.

Tim Ware, always sounded, to me, more like SF rock, but on acsoutics. (think: It's A Beautiful Day, Youngbloods, Dino Valenti-lineup up of QMS).

Hard to downplay the (UK) folk-jazz fusion of guitarist Davey Graham which inspired John#Renbourn & Bert Jansch both solo and with The Pentangle.

There was also Van Morrison's _Astral Weeks_, and the drumless John Mayall lineup with Jon Mark and Johnny Almond which produced _The Turning Point_ and _Empty Rooms_.

NH

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## Dagger Gordon

Humblemex,
regarding the impact of Dawg music in Britain.

I first came across this sort of thing in Chapelhill, North Carolina in early 1981.
I went throught a spell of listening to a lot of it, buying a couple of Rice albums (I love Reischman's playing on Backwaters), Grisman's Quintet 80, and Markology by Mark O'Connor (his guitar album) and one or two others.

I've often pondered whether it had much influence over here, and I have to conclude that I don't really think it did. Niles is certainly right in highlighting Pentangle and Davey Graham etc, but that was surely well before Dawg.

One group I believe was influenced by this idea of 'New Acoustic Music' (isn't that what it's called?) is the Edinburgh based Easy Club. They put a sort of synchopated swing into fiddle tunes, and had a great writer in Jim Sutherland. The way they played songs was also very effective.

I always expected them to be more successful than they seemed to be, and their influence doesn't seem to have been long lasting.

However, Jim Sutherland himself has gone on to be quite an influential producer.

There has been quite a bit of adventurous trad related music come out of Scotland in the last 25 years or so, but it is difficult to say whether Dawg influenced it much. Shooglenifty have always been a very progressive but quite electric band, and their early albums were produced by Sutherland.

The Scottish jazz community have always shown an interest in the 'folk' scene.
Examples might include Hamish Moore and Dick Lee's wild bagpipe/sax combinations and The Cauld Blast Orchestra. More recently we've had The Unusual Suspects - a terrific big band made up of folkies and jazzers, and Salsa Celtica - a very successful salsa/Celtic/jazz band. A number of harp players like Savourna Stevenson have also done some things that could be considered 'new acoustic music', although I'm not sure she's necessarily directly influenced by Dawg. I wouldn't be surprised, however.

In Ireland, we've had Moving Hearts and Davy Spillane doing intersting things, plus a very original group called Deiseal, wth a line-up of whistle, bouzouki and double bass, who I suspect were influenced. They had an amazing version of the old harp tune 'Si beag, si mhor'. 
I also think the Anglo/Irish band Flook could perhaps be included. They're really great.

Scandinavian influences have become quite strong in recent years. I'll let Niles handle that.

Cheers,

Dagger.

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## glauber

> In Ireland, we've had Moving Hearts and Davy Spillane doing intersting things, plus a very original group called Deiseal, wth a line-up of whistle, bouzouki and double bass, who I suspect were influenced. They had an amazing version of the old harp tune 'Si beag, si mhor'. 
> I also think the Anglo/Irish band Flook could perhaps be included. They're really great.


Flook is terrific. So is Lunasa. I would think the whole Bothy Band lineage qualifies, all the high-energy Irish trad power bands. 

The things i know by Spillane are more in the New Age vein.

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## Dagger Gordon

The Bothy Band's first album was 1975, I believe, predating any Dawg influence. I think the Irish high energy band was a different kind of thing from what I associate with Dawg/Rice etc.

Flook and Deiseal I would regard as altogether more jazzy based and more experimental in style than the likes of Altan, for example.

Spillane definitely made an effort to fuse Irish music with other styles, even having Albert Lee and Jerry Douglas on his first album.

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## glauber

Right, i meant similar in having taken a traditional music form and transformed it in creative ways without abandoning the music's traditional roots. But i see i was straying from the purpose of the thread.

There must be groups that did similar things in many countries, without being directly influenced by Dawg. I'm thinking of a Brazilian group called "Quinteto Violado". We probably won't ever know most of these groups.

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## mandocrucian

> I've often pondered whether it had much influence over here, and I have to conclude that I don't really think it did. Niles is certainly right in highlighting Pentangle and Davey Graham etc, but that was surely well before Dawg.


Graham was mid 60's - the "inventor" of DADGAD (though I'm sure the tuning had been previously used somewhere, but he kicked off the whole "English guitar" thing. Which developed both the trad. folk (Carthy etc) and jazzier (Renbourn, Jansch, John Martyn, Nick Drake..) branches 

The "dawg music" thing was largely a bluegrass-rooted phenomena. Grisman was definitely the introduction vector (for jazzier sounds) for many of the bluegrass persuasion. But there were plenty of other folks out there that were doing fusions, or had been (independently) influenced by Django, Slim & Slam, or Chico Hamilton Quintet of the late 50s, and others. There was the Paul Winter Consort, which spun off Oregon - this was fusion coming from the jazz end. #

So, I brought up Dan Hicks in this light - Dan was doing his thing 68-72 (at his height) with a great acoustic swing outfit (Sid Page!) but Hicks was reaching a vastly different audience than those who got into Grisman via Tony Rice/NGR/and the progressive BG of the 70s.

Trischka, Bottle Hill, Central Park Sheiks and the northeast BG contingent were doing some 'parallel' type stuff too.

Besides Graham, Pentangle, (in the UK) there was Diz Disley (who was so much a Djangophile, that supposedly he was visiting Django's widow and couldn't resist the temptation to grab Django's guitar and tried to runn-oft with it. RT told me this!), Nick Drake, Incredible String Band, Dandoshaft. #Later there was Whippersnapper (Swarbrick, Chris Leslie, and from Dandoshaft - Martin Jenkins and Kevin Dempsey) who would have really appealed to the "new acoustic" fans had they been aware of them.

Bothy Band had nothing to do with dawg at all, being a continuation of the Sweeney's Men &gt; Planxty evolution.

I suppose one's musical worldview is contingent on what (and how much) you've been exposed to.

NH
* * * * * * * * *
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Chico Hamilton - various recordings from 1955-65

Oregon - _Into The Woods_ (1978)

Van Morrison - _Astral Weeks_ (1968)

John Mayall - _The Turning Point_ #(1969), _Empty Rooms_ (1970) 

Davey Graham - _Folk, Blues & Beyond..._

John Renbourn - _Sir John Alot_ (1968)

Pentangle - _Pentangle_ (1968), _Sweet Child_ (1968), _Basket of Light_ (1969), _Light Flight: The Anthology_

Nick Drake - #_Five Leaves Left_ (1969), _Bryter Layter_ # (1970)

Sweetwater - _Sweetwater_ (1968)

Dan Hicks & His Hot Licks - _Where's The Money?_ (1971), _Striking It Rich_ (1972), _Last Train To Hicksville_ (1973)
Dan Hicks - _It Happened One Bite_</span>

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## SternART

You know Niles.......I was a BIG Dan Hicks fan, went to numerous gigs, and in my previous life (as a rock & roll photographer) had even
put together a few "concept" photos for a possible record cover. I have some cool in camera multiple exposures shot with a Nikon F2 back in the day.
I know I have some large prints somewhere, and I suspect there are boxes of slides, but I haven't looked for any of that stuff in 25 years.

There was a "last concert" before several inevitable comeback attempts.....at a SF club in the basement of a Church, about 1972, where Dan greeted everyone and thanked them as they came in the front door.....he was drunk as a skunk! While Sid Page and John Girton were super musicians, that was primarily a vocal group with a hot band. There is a DGQ/Hicks connection though....Rob Wasserman who became the DGQ's 4th bass player was a Hicks alumni. I recall Naiomi Ruth Eisenberg, and Maryanne Price visiting him backstage at a Music Hall gig.....but I could be wrong on that. You should get that Hicks DVD where alumni all show up for his 60th birthday gig at the Warfield in SF. I don't think he ever revived his career to that 68-72 peak era you mentioned, but I'm pretty sure he still plays now & then out here. I can see where a band like the Diddy-Bops comes right out of that Eisenberg/Price mold. The two Lickettes have done some gigs out this way too.

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## Paul Kotapish

FWIW, I know from conversations with Kevin Burke and Mícháel Ó Domhnaill that they were not really aware of the whole Dawg phenomenon at the time the Bothy Band was performing, and that group was pretty much defunct before the the DGQ was out and touring.

One of the interesting things that came out of those conversations was the very different attitude toward improvisation that the Irish musicians held. The common ground between the European folk revivalists and the Dawg school is that the bands were able to pull off incrdibly tight, complicated arrangements. With Grisman and Co. those arrangements were launching pads for statospheric improvisation by the soloists. In the case of the Bothy Band et al, improvisation was not really part of the formula, except at the most micro level of when and how to ornament a phrase or turn. And in instances where the arrangements featured tight duet or trio melodies, even the placement of ornaments was worked out in unison.

There were also big differences in the way that harmonies, counterpoint, and such were employed, but I think that improvisation is the big difference.

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## dzen

I saw the Grisman quintet (?) in Omaha about 7 years ago. After falling completely in love with the Tony Rice era stuff 20 years earlier, it had been one of the goals of my life to see them live, and I finally got the opportunity. Somehow they never made it to Nebraska. I hadn't heard anything they'd done for many years and was a little apprehensive as to how they'd weathered the years, musically speaking. I mean, a flute player? Percussion? A Brazilian guitarist? It was one of the best shows I've ever seen. The guy doing percussion sounds with his mouth was great fun to watch and hear (forgive me, don't remember his name). 

I saw "Grateful Dawg" a couple years later and it was interesting that the vocal percussionist was on it, but you could never see his mouth when he was doing his stuff. Was that intentional? What was the reason?   Dale

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## SternART

Joe Craven would often immitate the cymbals of a drum kit vocally....with his mouth. When he started with the DGQ percussion was usually just his fiddle case, but over the years he added to his kit. I saw a solo on a styrofoam cup once that was extremely musical. Joe can use anything including his own head to create music. He certainly added a whimsical or comedic element to the show, as well as tasty fiddle & mando solos. He was always in the groove big time on percussion. Add flashy dresser, too.

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## wsm

> Joe can use anything including his own head to create music.


Couple of months ago, I saw Joe lower his mic down to about floor level. #Untie his shoe and play an incredible solo on his shoelaces. #Wayne, I think I saw you hanging around in the back somewhere..

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## humblemex

Okay, now we're cooking. I was always vaguely aware of what the Brits were doing acoustically via bands like Fairport Convention and The Incredible String Band who made a small dent in the American market. Now I've got a list of a dozen more sources I need to check out. I'm not surprised that the DGQ didn't immediately bowl people over in Europe because there was such an established tradition already in place. Interesting, though, that one of David's primary influences were French and Belgian, Stephane Grappelli and Django Reinhart.

I think the Japanese were right on top of it, though, because there was an active bluegrass community and they were building instruments.

Dan Hicks was definitely an anomaly in that whole San Francisco scene and they kicked butt. Hicks was a killer rhythm guitarist and singer who wrote great songs like "I Scare Myself," How Can I Miss You When You Won't Go Away," "Walkin' One and Only," and "Canned Music." He was actually a member of *the* seminal San Francisco band, The Charletons. I never photographed him during the day. It was 1984 during his "comeback before I got the chance." Ol' Dan was pretty drunk for a long time and got pretty mean to the audience during his shows. You couldn't watch his show with a thin skin. The good news is that he is sober and fully up and running, releasing new albums and performing. Check out his website at www.DanHicks.net.

Arthur, that picture of Carlini and T was from January 1977, well before the King of the Gypsys thing happened. That was actually before I saw the first full DGQ set at Family at another kind of hybrid band performance with Jerry Douglas and Carlini. John was an original member of the Great American String Band who had gone off to be the musical director of the Ice Capades. He worked very closely with David on the arrangements and notation. Somewhere around here, I've got an original transcription of E.M.D. in his hand. What I remember most from that evening was a gorgeous duet of Tony and John on "Norwegian Wood."

I've asked a couple of boys in the band to check this topic out and see if they have anything to add. Just heard from Mike Marshall, who says he all over it. Stay tuned.

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## Dagger Gordon

I think Flook, Deiseal and Davy Spillane have embraced improvisation in a way that earlier bands like the Bothies didn't, which is why I included them.

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## humblemex

Correction: The shot of T and Carlini actually dates to May 27, 1977, which does indeed put it in the early window of work on King of the Gypsies. That would definitely account for John's presence, since he lived on the east coast. For some reason, every time I was around David my mind would get fuzzy, I'd laugh a lot, and forget things. Must have been something in the air that still effects my memory. Their opening act for this show was the incredible Ricky Jay, and astounding magician and arguably the greatest slight-of-hand artist anywhere. His card-throwing tricks defied the imagination. He even wrote a book about it called "Cards As Weapons," unfortunately long out of print. I remember being in Los Angeles 15 or 20 years ago and I came across a theater that was advertising Ricky for a two-week run. I immediately tried to buy tickets but the guy just laughed at me; all shows had long since been sold out.

This shot of the band is from August 19, 1977. It was actually used as a promo shot for a while. They were smokin' and on top of their game. Yogive you an idea of what they were playing those days, here's a set list from May 28, 1977. 

14 Miles to Barstow
Janice
Opus 57
Opus 38
Old Gray Coat
Groovin' High
Japan
Dawgology
16-16
Swing '51
Norwegian Wood
Swing '42
Spain
Ricochet
Fish Scale
Opus 12
Minor Swing

(sigh) Those were the days. And thanks Phillippe for the newspaper clipping from the Japanese tour.

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## bush-man

This is such fantastic stuff. I am enjoying reading every post. As for me, I had highly eclectic musical tastes, and listened to most of the bands that have been mentioned here, back in the day. I was also a huge Hicks fan and saw him in the early 70's at a bowling alley in Pa somewhere. hehehe I also saw him years later when he was doing gigs in NY at the Lone Star Cafe. 

The Central Park Shieks! Man did I love those guys. I wish I still had their album. Great swinging music. As for Dawg, I was right on the first DGQ release. I was coming from Trishka, and Barrenburg and Keith and all those bg/ng cats. I was also heavily into all the ECM jazz releases, like Pat Methany, Jan Gabberreck, Kenny Wheeler, Ralph Towner, et all. 

The only time I got to see Dawg was at a bg festival in Virgina in the early 70's [culpepper?], where he performed with Old and In the Way. Great times, great music, great memories. Keep it coming!

a gratefull russell

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## humblemex

> "You mean the italian newspaper clipping from the European tour?"


Yes, of course. Funny thing is I didn't even know about a European tour that year. Is there a date anywhere on that clipping?

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## humblemex

When I started hanging around David, it wasn't long before I got the urge to buy a mandolin. I'd plunked out a few chords on the guitar by then but I really loved the mandolin tremolo and the logic of the fingerboard. So I worked out a deal for a cool Ibanez two-point with Charlie Cowles, who then owned Tree Frog Music in my San Francisco Richmond neighborhood. If I recall correctly, there was no cash involved; I swapped him photos and copies of Guitar Player magazine he could sell in the store. The Ibanez was actually quite good but, of course, I stupidly sold it in the early '90s in the music store I co-owned. I mean, who needs more than one mandolin? Many of you Bay Area people know that Charlie now owns Tall Toad Music in Petaluma.

When I told David, he immediately gave me a copy of his little self- published "Ten Tunes in Nine Keys" and turned me on to the Mandolin World News. What a revelation. David and Darol published the first issue in Spring 1976. Remember, these were the days before computers, so every thing was done by conventional offset printing methods: the copy was typeset and photos were screened. The music, and there was lots of it, was beautifully handwritten (mostly by Darol, I think) in both notation and tab. The copy was then pasted up, photographed with a copy camera, and printing plates were burned. Only then was the magazine printed. It wasn't easy and it wasn't cheap, but it *was* a labor of great love and a gift to mandolinists everywhere.

The first issue was 24 pages, measured 5 1/2 x 8 1/2, and cost a buck. It included a list of source material for mandolin music publications and recordings, transcriptions of Byron Berline's "Snowball" and Beethoven's "Sonatine C-Dur, a tiny blurb on the DGQ, some basic mechanical exercises by Dawg, and an article on bridge placement and string compensation by Todd Phillips. The second issue was dated Summer 1976 and opened with appreciative letters from Jethro Burns and other mandolinists throughout the country. Bob Bruen did a short interview with Rudy Cipolla and Rudy contributed a study for two mandolins. Darol contributed a transcription of Jethro's "Back Up and Push, Dawg did a piece on voicing chords, and Todd wrote about mandolin set-up. The staff consisted of Dawg, Todd, Darol, Janice Bain (*the* "Janice) and Bob Bruen. As time passed, others began contributing articles and transcriptions. Niles Hokkanen was onboard by the fifth issue with a transcription of Mick Moloney's "Reel for Mandolin," classical great Marilyn Mair did a piece on studying with Vinzenz Hladky, and Jethro debuted his column, "Jethro Speaks."

Eventually the staff and the magazine expanded with more authors contributing. A random selection I looked at included Don Stiernberg, John McGann, Tim Ware, Mike Marshall, Joe Carr, Tony Williamson, Scott Hambly, Hugo D'Alton, Bob Alekno, and Rich Del Grosso This was truly a magazine written by mandolin players for mandolin players. By the end of the third year, Dix Bruce took over as editor and the fun just kept on coming. Dix and the others held out until Vol 7, #3 in Autumn 1983 when it became clear there really wasn't any advertising to support the publication. By then it had expanded to 54 pages. After suspending publication for a year, Don Stiernberg and his brother John took over and produced four more issues before tossing in the towel at the end of 1984. MWN produced a total of 31 issues, and it's remarkable how fresh and relevant just about everything in every issue still is today, although the classifieds are a hoot. Issue. Once I started looking through my back issues, I spent almost six hours and marked at least 20 pieces I want to return to. Though Michael HolmesI briefly published "Mandolin Notebook" through six issues in 1977-78, it was 1987 before anything remotely equal to MWN existed when Niles started "Mandocrucian Digest."

Fortunately, photo copies of all 31 issues are still available from Dix at his web site, www.musixnow.com. You owe it to yourselves to experience this wonderful publication.

----------


## humblemex

Jethro Speaks

----------


## humblemex

Jethro Speak Part 2

----------


## humblemex

CORRECTION: MWN did not suspend publication for a year after Dix gave it up. The last issue from Dix was Vol 7, #3 in Autumn, 1983, with Mike Marshall on the cover. When the Stiernbergs took over they decided to make a clean break and skipped Vol 7, #4 and all of Vol 8. They started in March 1984 with Vol. 9, #1. The four issues they produced looked and read really good.

"It all worked out pretty well despite the bumps," says Dix. "I loved that little magazine and if we'd had computers in those days, I bet I'd still be doing it."

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Jon, 
> 
> Got any photos of Dan Hicks & His Hot Licks? Great west coast acoustic string swing, but overlooked/underappreciated by the grassy contingent because none of them came out of that genre, and, it predated the dawg stuff by at least 5+ years and the records (in the stores) were always filed in the "rock" bins.
> 
> Tim Ware, always sounded, to me, more like SF rock, but on acsoutics. (think: It's A Beautiful Day, Youngbloods, Dino Valenti-lineup up of QMS).
> 
> Hard to downplay the (UK) folk-jazz fusion of guitarist Davey Graham which inspired John#Renbourn & Bert Jansch both solo and with The Pentangle.
> 
> There was also Van Morrison's _Astral Weeks_, and the drumless John Mayall lineup with Jon Mark and Johnny Almond which produced _The Turning Point_ and _Empty Rooms_.
> ...


I've been trying to understand your point. Are you telling us there was music
before the DGQ? I'm shocked to hear that.

----------


## mandopete

_So You Want To Be A Mandolin Player?_ - words to live by!

----------


## AlanN

I just met Grisman 20 minutes ago, for the first time. He is here for a student discourse on jazz/bg hybrids. He remembered my mandolin, and knew me from, you guessed it, this here website. 

So he does read it, be careful what you say  

Cool MWN montage, Jon. I have memorized all those issues...

----------


## glauber

> So he does read it, be careful what you say


David, you dog!

Ooops, i really blew it now... now i'll never be invited into the DGQ, even though i play mandolin *and* flute!

----------


## mandocrucian

> I've been trying to understand your point. Are you telling us there was music
> before the DGQ? I'm shocked to hear that.


Really _amazing_ ain't it? And "acoustic" as well!




> <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>"Menu" (1977 Nyon Folk Festival)
> Artistes: Amanite, Aristide Padygros, Bill Keith Band, Bluegrass Long Distance, Claude et Alex, Connection, Corrugated Mercury, Country Joe McDonald, Country Ramblers, David Bromberg Band, Derroll Adams, François Béranger, Gentiane, Guedou, Hedhe Hog Pie, Jacques Aylestock, Julie Felix, Kolinda, La Kinkerne, Le Grand Rouge, *Malicorne*, Marcel Dadi, Pierre Bensusan, Pigsty Hill Light Orchestra, Tarot, Yvan et Daniel Haefliger</span>


*Malicorne* - one of the best folk-rock bands of all time. 

Niles H

----------


## Don Stiernberg

Lots of great discussion and nostalgia here, thanks everyone..

 I think one rather amazing fact about "Dawgology" is that after 3 decades it continues as a work in progress, a great body of work which has had an influence on how many of us think about music..

But getting back to Mandolin World News, my favorite memory
is still Jethro's recipe for "Baloney Gravy". I gotta go into the basement now and find that...

----------


## SternART

uuuuuuuummmmmm!!! 

Jethro's Baloney Gravy!!!

----------


## humblemex

[QUOTE= (mandocrucian @ Mar. 06 2007, 11:50)]


> I've been trying to understand your point. Are you telling us there was music
> before the DGQ? I'm shocked to hear that.


There were a couple. Like this guy for instance:

----------


## humblemex

And this guy:

----------


## humblemex

And this guy:

----------


## humblemex

And this guy, to name but a few. But I digress. The topic is, after all, Dawgology

----------


## humblemex

Oh yeah, sorry. Can't forget this guy:

----------


## humblemex

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Kaleidoscope F-5 set a standard for a new breed of acoustic music in several ways, not the least the quality of recording of acoustic instruments. Vol 2, #2 of MWN provided the details.

----------


## humblemex

Part 2-recording the DGQ

----------


## mandopete

All Neumanns - cool!

Got any pictures from that session? #I would love to see the mic placement for the guitar.

----------


## Spruce

Hi Jon....

Was that Monroe pic taken at the GAMH??

I've been trying to get a reading on the date of that show for quite some time now...

Here tis:

_Setlist for Bill Monroe & the Bluegrass Boys 1977 ?? # # 


Venue # #Great American Music Hall#
City # #San Francisco#
State # #CA#

Set/CD 1 (broadcast on KNEW) #Radio &gt; Reel-to-Reel &gt; Masterlink &gt; CD

1: #Bluegrass Breakdown #(fades in)
2: #Muleskinner Blues
3: #My Little Georgia Rose
4: #Kentucky Mandolin
5: #Precious Memories
6: #Jeruselem Ridge
7: #Uncle Pen
8: #Sunset Trail
9: #In the Pines
10: #Footprints in the Snow
11: #Rawhide
12: #Swing Low/I'll Fly Away/I Saw the Light
13: #White Horse Breakdown
14: #Interview #(great!)



Set/CD 2: #(soundboard source unknown)

1: Intro Followed by I'll Never Shed Another Tear 
2: Dear Old Dixie
3: The Broken String Event
4: My Little Georgia Rose
5: The Old Old House
6: Introduction to Jerusalem Ridge
7: Jerusalem Ridge
8: Precious Memories (the Bluegrass Quartet)
9: Right Right On (first public performance)
10: Tennessee Blues
11: Monroe's Hornpipe
12: The Little Girl and the Dreadful Snake
13: The Girl in the Blue Velvet Band
14: Kentucky Waltz
15: Toy Heart
16: Walking in Jerusalem
17: End comments from Bill

Comment # #Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys
Kenny Baker
Wayne Lewis
Randy Davis
Butch Robbins_


Man, the GAMH had to be a photographer's dream venue, no?? #With those wonderful balconies right over the stage and all...

That had to be about my favorite period for seeing music. #Those DGQ shows indeed were all just incredible.

----------


## humblemex

Sorry Pete but I wasn't really around yet when they were recording the album. 

Bruce, the photo of Bill was shot at the Great American Music Hall but the kicker is that played there twice in 1977, Feb. 7 and Oct 3. At least you've got a 1 in 2 chance to get it right.

The GAMH *was* a great place to shoot for a couple of reasons. It had the best acoustic music anywhere in San Francisco and I had a lifetime pass that allowed me just walk into any show. I knew the whole staff. My main man was Gilbert Johnson, who ran the lights. Even if the level was low for most of the show, he would crank it up when he saw me shooting.

----------


## Peter Hackman

> I just met Grisman 20 minutes ago, for the first time. He is here for a student discourse on jazz/bg hybrids. He remembered my mandolin, and knew me from, you guessed it, this here website. 
> 
> So he does read it, be careful what you say  
> 
> Cool MWN montage, Jon. I have memorized all those issues...


Do you (anyone here) think of Grisman's music as a jazz/bg bas..., sorry,# hybrid?

Anyone know Grismans's thoughts on the topic? I mean his thoughts, not
what he might say to critics or journalists.

I really don't hear ANY bg at all, and as for the jazz #this music
seems to be one huge confirmation of Hackmans' Theorem -
that the guitar #is not a piano.


(I'm a bit wary of labels, multilabels and #anti-labels. When people ask me what I play I say it's fusion. You mean like folk-rock or funk-jazz?
No, a fusion of notes).

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Oh yeah, sorry. Can't forget this guy:


In this subthread about who preceded Grisman by how many years
with something else it surprises me that no one has mentioned
Jim Kweskin or Dave van Ronk's Ragtime Jug Band, or 
the (possibly) first band that DG played in, The Even Dozen Jug Band.
Of course, the first two were mainly vocal groups, but I believe
these musicians, and these bands, may very well have affected
the way people think about, and hear, "acoustic" music.
Richard Greene's violin with Kweskin
(or with Gary Burton !!!)
 may have been more 
significant than his playing with Monroe or Muleskinner.

----------


## AlanN

> Do you (anyone here) think of Grisman's music as a jazz/bg bas..., sorry,# hybrid?


I don't think when I listen to music. I just listen. And I don't need to call it anything. If I like it, it gets repeated listening; if I don't, it don't.

----------


## Scotti Adams

> Originally Posted by  (Peter Hackman @ Mar. 07 2007, 08:57)
> 
> Do you (anyone here) think of Grisman's music as a jazz/bg bas..., sorry,# hybrid?
> 
> 
> I don't think when I listen to music. I just listen. And I don't need to call it anything. If I like it, it gets repeated listening; if I don't, it don't.


..same here...

----------


## mandopete

> Originally Posted by  (AlanN @ Mar. 07 2007, 09:17)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by  (Peter Hackman @ Mar. 07 2007, 08:57)
> 
> ...


I agree. 

The hallmark of DAWG music is that it really can't be lumped into any genre.

----------


## mandolooter

aren't labels for beer bottles? When im pickin out some tunes for the day, I think more in flavors than genre's.

----------


## Spruce

_"I really don't hear ANY bg at all"_

Well, the instrumentation alone denotes a BG influence, no??

That, and I hear fiddle-tune influence in a _lot_ of those Dawg tunes...

"Whiskey Before Breakfast" in "Thailand", for instance....

We've mentioned it before on these pages, but _that_ twin-mando lineup in the early DGQ years with Todd on second mando was _the_ element in that music that really made it unique.
And it was only on display in the DGQ for a _very_ short magical period of time...

Hell, when they had the reunion of the "original" DGQ at Wintergrass 5-6 years ago playing the tunes off Kalaidascope F5 (in order!), there wasn't a twin-mando part to be heard. #
Granted, Todd's mando chops aren't up to snuff (by his own admission), but those parts were the element that made that project unique, and it's really been lost over the years...

----------


## gr_store_feet

This is truly an incredible thread; just fascinating insight. I am completely stupefied that Taj Mahal played bass for that GASB. Definitely amazing; two different worlds colliding. Any have any pictures of that? Any recordings? There is no mention of that on any Taj biographies that I have checked out online. I do have a recoding of Taj on bass playing on an old album of Bonnie Raitt's. But I would love to hear any GASB with Taj.

----------


## tango_grass

> "The hallmark of DAWG music is that it really can't be lumped into any genre."


Which is why I love Dawg, Its music. Just plain sweet music.

----------


## AlanN

> Originally Posted by  (mandopete @ Mar. 07 2007, 09:49)
> 
> "The hallmark of DAWG music is that it really can't be lumped into any genre."
> 
> 
> Which is why I love Dawg, Its music. Just plain sweet music.


Man, this has come full circle to the very raison d'etre of Dawg Music. The little blurb by one Janice Bain on the back of K F-5 says it all...and I paraphrase from memory..."They started calling them dawg music. The wierd tunes that were no longer bluegrass, tunes with a difference..."

The whole thing of [naming] it was for it to live in a world where labels are necessary, per the music/commercial/ business viewpoint. I would hazard that David hardly wanted to name it at all....but I'm glad he did

----------


## Dan Cole

I have heard how Jerry Garcia coined the nickname Dawg, but I have also heard it is Grisman's initials. Is there any truth to that?

----------


## Spruce

_"I am completely stupefied that Taj Mahal played bass for that GASB. Definitely amazing; two different worlds colliding. Any have any pictures of that? Any recordings?"_

Well, there are these...

----------


## humblemex

> "We've mentioned it before on these pages, but _that_ twin-mando lineup in the early DGQ years with Todd on second mando was _the_ element in that music that really made it unique.
> And it was only on display in the DGQ for a _very_ short magical period of time..."


You got that right, Bruce. I just noticed that I had not included Todd in my personal DGQ alumni Hall of Fame and that was just an inadvertant omission. That two-mandolin lineup created a unique sound that lasted until 1981 with Todd and then Mike Marshall. It has seldom been seen since except for when Joe Craven occasionally pitched in.

Todd was an essential glue for the original quintet, first on mandolin and then on bass. For the past 25 years, he has been *the* bassist on call for many of the most innovative traditional, bluegrass, and "new acoustic" music recordings. He is also a two-time Grammy winner, first with the New South in 1983 and again in 1997 as the producer of "True Life Blues," the tribute album to Bill Monroe. He has also produced two David Grier albums and is a key member of Phillips, Grier, and Flinner as well as Laurie Lewis' bluegrass band.

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Originally Posted by  (Spruce @ Mar. 07 2007, 11:33)
> 
> "We've mentioned it before on these pages, but _that_ twin-mando lineup in the early DGQ years with Todd on second mando was _the_ element in that music that really made it unique.
> And it was only on display in the DGQ for a _very_ short magical period of time..."
> 
> 
> You got that right, Bruce. I just noticed that I had not included Todd in my personal DGQ alumni Hall of Fame and that was just an inadvertant omission. That two-mandolin lineup created a unique sound that lasted until 1981 with Todd and then Mike Marshall. It has seldom been seen since except for when Joe Craven occasionally pitched in.
> 
> Todd was an essential glue for the original quintet, first on mandolin and then on bass. For the past 25 years, he has been *the* bassist on call for many of the most innovative traditional, bluegrass, and "new acoustic" music recordings. He is also a two-time Grammy winner, first with the New South in 1983 and again in 1997 as the producer of "True Life Blues," the tribute album to Bill Monroe. He has also produced two David Grier albums and is a key member of Phillips, Grier, and Flinner as well as Laurie Lewis' bluegrass band.


One of my absolute favorites on bass.

Hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but a CD I often return to is
his "timeframe" with Paul McCandless on double reeds, soprano sax,
and bass clarinet, a marimba player, and drums. Not exactly
a string band, and yet somehow connected with the DGQ and
all it inspired (check the thank yous on the booklet).

----------


## SternART

Todd's CD "In The Pines" is absolutely top drawer too. Those guys play it pretty straight on this one, definitely not Psychograss, another band Todd is involved with. In The Pines has soul though, top pickers playing more traditionally than they sometimes do.....but VERY hip none the less. Incredible mando playing by Marshall & Reischman, with Stuart Duncan, Darol Anger, Tim O'brien & Laurie Lewis on fiddle on various cuts, Scott Nygaard on guitar and Tony Trischka on banjo. If you don't have this CD find it, you won't be disappointed. Tunes like In The Willow Garden, Sally Ann, Liza Jane, Midnight on the Stormy Deep, In The Pines......a very fine instrumental CD!

----------


## glauber

> Originally Posted by  (SternART @ Feb. 26 2007, 19:26)
> 
> Jon, there were a few other GASB gigs with the lineup of:
>  Great American String Band 
>   * Jerry Garcia - banjo, vocals
>   * David Grisman - mandolin, vocals
>   * David Nichtern - guitar, vocals
>   * Richard Greene - fiddle
>   * Taj Mahal - bass 
> ...


I've been listening to this one... nice sound, despite some tape hiss. To my untrained ears, Jerry seems to play some pretty good banjo. At least a few tracks sound like Jerry may be playing lead guitar too.

----------


## SternART

That is the GREAT Buell Neidlinger on bass @ the Keystone Berkeley gig. Mr. Buellgrass himself. Neidlinger was on Richard Greene's Grass is Greener Band recordings and has some of his own Buellgrass out, some cool stuff on CD with Andy Statman & Richard, culled from older records. He has quite a resume, everything from Chamber music with guys like Richard Stoltzman, recordings with the London Symphony as 1st chair. AND recording with Cecil Taylor in the late 50's...lone young white guy in that scene, friends with Herby Nichols, even put out some of his charts a few years back. Buell is a big Monk-ophile recording many of his tunes over the years. And he was on every commercial, movie soundtrack, etc to come out of LA in the era he lived there. Edgar Meyer is like this generations main crossover go to guy....Buell was the previous generations go to bass player. Buell is cool! He was like a prodigy cello player in his youth.
There was a one time gig called the David Grisman Orchestra @ the GAMH. It had Richard, Buell, Andy Statman, hmmmmm can't recall who was on guitar, might have been Carlini & Grisman. Now that was a cool 2 mandolin band there. As I recall it was like a special gig in between versions of the DGQ.

Glauber....If you want Taj on bass on these GASB recordings the shows where they opened for the Grateful Dead at stadiums are some of the ones you want to find. Try the Ebbets Field & Pilgrimage Theater gigs, from above....... as well as one from..... I think it was Santa Barbara where they opened for the Dead.

----------


## mandopete

> Hell, when they had the reunion of the "original" DGQ at Wintergrass 5-6 years ago playing the tunes off Kalaidascope F5 (in order!), there wasn't a twin-mando part to be heard. #


Now I seem to recall that they did one tune with 3 mandolins - David, Mike and Todd. #I can't recall which tune, maybe Ricochet?

David commented in my interview how much he liked having two mandolins in the band. #In that way the "chop" wouldn't drop out when the mandolin solo'ed. This is something I notice quite a bit in bluegrass. #Sometimes a banjo, fiddle or dobro will pick up the chop when the mandolin solos. #Other times on recordings I think they will just run the chop through the entire song and dub the mandolin break.

Oh yeah, the other thing I remember from the reunion gig at Wintergrass was when David was yelling out the reminder for the stop in the middle of Tony's break on E.M.D. - just like the record.

----------


## mandopete

So I went into the closet here and dug out my copy of *Kaleidocsope F-5* (on vinyl), which I have always called "The David Grisman Quintet" album. #I recall that for years I thought this was bluegrass music, or at least what it had become by 1976.

The picture of the instruments on the cover is an absolute classic!

----------


## Spruce

_"Buell is a big Monk-ophile recording many of his tunes over the years."_

Buell told me a story about how he used to sit on Monk's stoop and listen to him practice...
Pretty cool...

_"There was a one time gig called the David Grisman Orchestra @ the GAMH. #It had Richard, Buell, Andy Statman, hmmmmm can't recall who was on guitar, might have been Carlini & Grisman. #Now that was a cool 2 mandolin band there. #As I recall it was like a special gig in between versions of the DGQ."_

That was a cool gig....
I've got a recording of it here somewhere...
Statman was on fire...

----------


## humblemex

Arthur,

Impressive memory for someone who hung around the Dead a lot.

Since you mentioned it, here's a jump ahead in chronology to the David Grisman Orchestra from May 27, 1978.

L-R: Darol Anger, John Carlini, Todd Phillips, Andy Statman, Dawg, Buell Neidlinger, Tony Rice, and Richard Greene. Actually, this was during the finale when Todd joined the band onstage for "Ricochet."

----------


## SternART

Great service Jon!!!
Buell & Richard opened with a duet set......I remember an incredible version of Danny Boy!

Spruce.....Buell is full of GREAT stories, he has retired up your way hasn't he? Another
island dweller. If you run into him, please give him my regards!

----------


## mandopete

He was at Wintergrass a couple of years ago with "Buell-grass" featuring people like Danny Barnes. As I recall he even played a Monk tune and handed each of the band members a lead sheet. I'm not sure how man of them, besides Danny, even read music.

----------


## JeffD

> *Malicorne* - one of the best folk-rock bands of all time. 
> 
> Niles H


Yes yes and again yes. 

The French "Steeleye Span", perhaps in many ways more interesting.

----------


## humblemex

Buellgrass

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Originally Posted by  (tango_grass @ Mar. 07 2007, 13:20)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by  (mandopete @ Mar. 07 2007, 09:49)
> 
> ...


But she had to mention "bluegrass" , "no longer bluegrass", as if
the music came from there, or was a conscious negation of that
genre, instead of just an affirmation of the players' temperaments
and varied backgrounds.

One reason I did not take to the DGQ in 77 was that it was presented
to me as the latest in bg or even the "future" at a time when I
had closed the door on that tradition. The labels blocked me. More
importantly, though, I was deeply into other things, e.g. the extremely varied and open-minded jazz scene of the day, especially in Europe.
 When my listening habits gradually
changed (I had all but stopped playing) there was room for this kind of stuff
and I got Hot Dawg and the Anger-Marshall collaborations before
the Kaleidoscope LP.

Had I been playing in 77 that LP could have come as an answer to my prayers.
Being frustrated with the limitations of BG, and not quite a jazz player
(I just knew some things about its harmony), that LP could have sparked my
desire to play again, and helped validate some of the things I had been fumbling with in the early 70's, a sort of neither-nor music.

My question was prompted by the fact that Grisman actually gave a seminar
on "jazz/bg hybrids". Was that his way of thinking of his own music or just the subject commissioned? Well, Ligeti once was asked to deliver a lecture
on the future of music, and realizing nothing could be said he said nothing -
that was his lecture. There's always a way uf unasking the question.

If someone were to ask me what the DGQ was about I would probably say
"a string band parallel to jazz" (I could even make that more explicit)
 No Schidt about "fusion", "genre-busting", or "integration".

----------


## AlanN

The old set lists often included My Plastic Banana Is Not Stupid. Tony Rice recorded it (called Plastic Banana) on his eponymous Rounder release.

My question to those in-the-know: is this a TR original? It is a fun tune to pick, and has a tricky move where it goes from Bb to A.

----------


## SternART

Isn't that a David Nichtern tune? I seem to recall them introducing it that way....but I could be wrong.

----------


## Spruce

> Buellgrass



Well Buell did record a couple LPs under the moniker "Buellgrass", and they are keepers for sure...

In fact, you could add that band to the top of the list of newgrass pioneers....
I think they were playing in the late 70's, and recording around '80 or so...

Lineup:

BUELL NEIDLINGER	bass 
RICHARD GREENE	violin 
ANDY STATMAN	mandolin and clarinet 
PETER IVERS	harmonicas 
PETER ERSKINE	drums 
MARTY KRYSTALL	tenor, soprano saxes and clarinets

Check one LP out here...

BTW, I just had a listen to a crazy live Spinal Tap bootleg with Richard Greene sitting in on "Clam Caravan"....
Pretty cool....

Check it out here...

----------


## 250sc

I think I'll have to buy a copy of that one. Didn't Peter Erskine used to play in Weather Report. I know I recognize the name from somewhere.

----------


## Peter Hackman

> I think I'll have to buy a copy of that one. Didn't Peter Erskine used to play in Weather Report. I know I recognize the name from somewhere.


He's recorded with Ralph Towner. Also toured and recorded with 
British pianist John Taylor and Swedish bass player Palle Danielsson.
Several CDs on ECM.

----------


## mandopete

> Didn't Peter Erskine used to play in Weather Report. I know I recognize the name from somewhere.


Yes. I also saw him with Stan Kenton's Big Band in high school. He's one of my all-time favorite jazz drummers.

----------


## humblemex

> Check one LP out here...


Oh, yeah. That is way cool. Ordering that one now. Spruce, could you or someone please post a link to tutorial on the world of torrents and the software necessary to play them. Is this the same as .shn files?

Jon

----------


## gr_store_feet

Gentleman, many thanks for the torrents. Can't wait...

----------


## Spruce

> Originally Posted by  (Spruce @ Mar. 08 2007, 12:01)
> 
> Check one LP out here...
> 
> 
> Oh, yeah. That is way cool. Ordering that one now. Spruce, could you or someone please post a link to tutorial on the world of torrents and the software necessary to play them. Is this the same as .shn files?
> 
> Jon


Well, torrents are dicey for me to explain. #I think someone else might be able to do that better...

I'm _heavily_ into Dimeadozen these days.

Set that page to your default page, so that if you get an opening, you'll be able to sign up. #They only allow 100,000 members (or something like that), but openings _do_ come up, and you'll be able to sign up within a few days or so if you keep trying...

Configuring your computer to download torrents is a bit tricky (I'm running a Mac), but doable for the layman. #There's a FAQ page at Dimeadozen that will run you through it...

Anyway, all these fantastic concerts come up there on a regular basis...

I'm just now figuring out how to upload all the concerts I recorded back in the day, so I'll be able to give back to the community soon...

Oh, and check out Wolfgang's Vault...

There's a pretty cool collection (mostly rock) of shows there...

The Hendrix stuff from Winterland is just incredible, as are others like this one or this gem...

Anyway, _everything_ is out there these days in the best quality imaginable...
Pretty damn cool.... #

----------


## jefflester

> Originally Posted by  (Spruce @ Mar. 08 2007, 12:01)
> 
> Check one LP out here...
> 
> 
> Oh, yeah. That is way cool. Ordering that one now. Spruce, could you or someone please post a link to tutorial on the world of torrents and the software necessary to play them. Is this the same as .shn files?
> 
> Jon


torrents are a distribution method, not a file type. The files are either SHN or FLAC.

Check out http://wiki.etree.org/ for FAQs about SHN, FLAC, and BitTorrent.

-Jeff (your suite-mate from Mando Sypoisum 2004, Hi Jon!)

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## humblemex

Thanks Bruce and Jeff,

I've done as Bruce suggested in setting my default homepage. Right this minute they have 100,001 users. As for Wolfgang's Vault, I've been keeping Audio HiJack Pro very busy grabbing as much as that as I want, and there is lots.

Now I'm headed over to the etree FAQ page Jeff suggested. Time to ramp up on this stuff because there is so much great stuff available. Any other tutorial recommendations and download sites are much appreciated.

Jon

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## bush-man

Jon, once you get a bit torrent client, and there are a lot of them, then all you need to do is click on the torrent you want to download it. You will find a good explination of how torrents work on the etree faq. etree is a fantastic source of torrents, and the site I use most. It is strictly a "taper friendly" site, so you will only find artists that allow taping there. 

http://bt.etree.org/

russell

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## glauber

For a Windows-based client, my recommendation is utorrent (micro-torrent). Torrents are very good for downloading big files. Just leave your computer on. It's surprisingly fast when other people are also downloading, because the application polls the network bandwidths, otherwise it's very slow but dependable. I've had shows take 3 weeks to download.

----------


## humblemex

Though it was Dawg's vision that launched his new synthesis of acoustic music, it wouldn't have developed quite the same way without the musicians who implemented that vision. David and Tony were the most out-front sound of the band, and we've talked about Todd's contributions, but in the long run Darol Anger has been the most adventurous and new acoustic music's greatest ambassador. In fact, it was he who coined the term "new acoustic music." As far as I'm concerned, his body of work and contributions to the world of string-band music is unparalleled.

Darol discovered Dawg the same way many of us did, through Old and in the Way. The difference is that it wasn't Garcia who attracted him but Vassar Clements. He was living in Santa Cruz when someone gave him a couple of bootleg tapes of the Great American Music Band with Richard Greene. He and Todd were good buddies playing in rival bluegrass bands at the time Todd was taking mandolin lessons from David. One day Todd invited Darol to a jam with Grisman. They played some of Dawg's tunes, and when David discovered Darol knew all the parts and Richard's solos, he asked him to come back the next week. The invite stretched into nine years.

Even before Darol left the band in 1984, he and Mike Marshall had been begun collaborating as a duet and with Saheeb, an innovative quartet with pianist Barbara Higbie and violinist David Balakrishnan. After that came the Montreaux Band, which had an enormous impact on the Adult Contemporary format. He and Balakrishnan then co-founded the Turtle Island String Quartet, which bridged the world of chamber music and jazz as no group has before or since. After that came Psychograss, The Duo, Fiddlers Four, and his current project, Republic of Strings with guitarist Scott Nygaard, the brilliant and innovative cellist Rushad Eggleston, and a revolving crew of brilliant young violinists such as Brittany Haas, Gabe Witcher, Jeremy Kittel, and Sara Watkins.

 In 2005, the CD release of "Heritage," his "guided tour through America's great folk songs" in collaboration with artists such as Willie Nelson, Jane Siberry, Tim O'Brien, John Gorka, and Mavis Staples finally appeared. This is an incredible recording that I highly recommend to everybody here.

He has also a dedicated educator and helped found the String Resource Board of the International Association of Jazz Educators and regularly teaches at the Berklee School of Music.

As you can tell, I am an enormous fan of Darol's. In addition to his plethora of talent, he is a genuinely humble and nice guy.

For anyone interested, you can still find a fascinating interview with him on NPR's website at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=1765248

----------


## Spruce

Yep on all that....

Hey, do any of you Bay Area old-timers (figuratively speaking) remember a gig at the GAMH that was MC'ed by the Dawg, and featured Byron Berline (for sure) and (I think) Vassar Clements and their bands??

I think this was my first visit to the GAMH, so it might have been '73 or so??

My memories are very vague about this show (I went backstage # #), and I'd love to have them re-installed....

Did U shoot any pics of that night, Jon??

Anyway, it turned into a mega-jam as I remember, and was my first live exposure to that whole world...

Love to hear from anybody with brain cells remaining from that night...

----------


## SternART

Lately Rushad Eggleston has been playing with his band Crooked Still, who really opened my ears at Wintergrass this year. Darol has had several time National Fiddle Champ Tristan Clarridge on cello in Republic of Strings this past year, and he gets to stand up & fiddle too......I saw Darol & Scott Nygard recently backing up the Anonomous 4, a quartet of women, classical singers, with chart topping CD's of Medieval music.....who recorded a coupla Americana/Roots music albums. Darol played both violin AND mandolin on this tour. I can think of 2 other groups that Darol was in while in the DGQ, one was the Darol Anger Cello Quartet,where Darol played cello, Bob Alekno on guitar, Dave Balakrishnan on violin & Mike. This was pre Saheeb, and really was the seeds of Turtle Island's sound as well as Darol's Republic of Strings. The other was Ook 'n 'm (spelled differently at each gig), but was basically the DGQ without Grisman: Mike, Darol, Todd & Tony, where they played their own original tunes, weird versions of Grisman's tunes, jazz standards, blew off steam and generally ran wild, naked in the streets. This sound was heard on projects like Fiddlistics, and was probably so much fun, it led to Tony & Todd forming the Tony Rice Unit. Psychograss is the closest thing today to Ook 'n 'M. Darol's great tunes like Key Signature, Ride the Wild Turkey & remember Megatones?! They would play way more outside than the DGQ, pushing & pulling the rhythm.....they always ended up on the beat & internally knew the pulse, but it got pleasantly weird. I think it is interesting that the stuff they used to do having fun & kinda goofing off became a bigger part of their style, as they matured as artists. That band was my favorite DGQ offshoot.......and I hear the evolution of this sound in Todd's playing with Grier & Flinner, as well as Psychograss. Darol is a brilliant musician combining a great ear, with a creative mind, always willing to venture into uncharted territory.

----------


## humblemex

Thanks Arthur. That's the great part of this being a collaborative effort: I don't have to remember everything on my own. How could I have forgotten 'ook 'n 'm? Actually, there have probably been several more bands Darol put together that I've forgotten about.

The photo says everything about the wild abandon these guys had with that band. They probably didn't do more than a half-dozen gigs but it was a great ride to see them turned loose from the Dawg's boundries. This was in 1978.

----------


## SternART

Jon that photo reminds me of a good gig....Anyone else at this show? the only time I recall the DGQ playing New Years eve at the GAMH? That was a tough ticket to get. Almost as hard as when the Grateful Dead played the GAMH for a live broadcast in 1975 that included Blues for Allah. The DGQ came out at the very end of the night, a few of them had been drinking pretty heavily, and they actually got up there and played each others instruments, might have even used the piano sometimes on stage.....I seem to recall Todd on piano. Boy...after some tight sets......that was a wild night, talk about playing outside.....I've seen Darol a few times at non DGQ gigs at the GAMH where he got wild & actually played fiddle lying down on his back, goofing off.....Dexter Anger can get carried away & have some fun. We used to call Darol "Dexter" and Todd was "Pop" as nicknames. Tony was just "T" and of course David was "Dawg". I was "Monsieur A" for the Citroen. As I recall it was Todd, Darol & I stood in line for great seats to see Dexter Gordon at the Keystone Corner Jazz Club. We were first row center, right at the stage....what a night! Well Gordon kinda mumbles when he talks, does much better thru his horn......there is a parallel to Anger there. We used to go out as a group to hear jazz when the big shots came to town. I have strong memories of us all looking down on the piano from the balcony on the left, for an Oscar Peterson gig at the Music Hall, with Joe Pass and Niels-Henning Orsted Pederson. Man we LOVED Niels!!! It was so great we spent big money next tour to see them at the Fairmont Hotel. Or we went to see Stephane Grappelli numerous times before the collaborations with Grisman started. Dizz Disley, and Philip Catherine on guitar & either Neils on bass on one tour, or maybe it was Brian Torf on another. Stephane would always play a piano solo during the set. Cool times, I was learning about REAL jazz by hangin out with these guys.

----------


## humblemex

I sure remember the New Year's Eve gig because it was 1978-79, the same night that the Dead closed Winterland. I had a gig shooting the Blues Brothers that night for the record company so I had tickets and backstage passes for two. I knew where my heart was, though. I wanted to celebrate New Year's with my friends at the Music Hall. So, after the Blues Brothers finished, I walked out the front door of Winterland, much to the amazement of the dozens of Deadheads standing outside. Before leaving, though, I picked out the prettiest young thing I could see and handed her a miracle ticket complete with backstage pass. Her expression was priceless. Of course, I had a tape of the Dead show within a week and finally got to actually see it a couple of years ago when the DVD was issued. To tell the truth, though, I'd much rather have a DVD of the DGQ show.

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## bennyb

Howdy all,
I don't have any inside stories to tell, but I remember my first DGQ show. After spending a few years in the woods, I returned to SF Bay Area, ran into a former girlfriend - she said I should check these guys out: so I went to the next show. It was at the College of Marin theatre, and I remember only a couple of things: one was how the rest of the band all looked like ...well hippies from the Bay Area, but Tony R. looked like he'd flown in directly from Nashville, all slick and polished(he sure could play though , the other was when they played Ricochet with the three mandos: the whole show knocked me out, but that visual has stayed in my head. That was David, Todd, and Darol on mandos. Not sure what year? 77?

Bennyb

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## Peter Hackman

> Darol discovered Dawg the same way many of us did, through Old and in the Way. The difference is that it wasn't Garcia who attracted him but Vassar Clements. He was living in Santa Cruz when someone gave him a couple of bootleg tapes of the Great American Music Band with Richard Greene. He and Todd were good buddies playing in rival bluegrass bands at the time Todd was taking mandolin lessons from David. One day Todd invited Darol to a jam with Grisman. They played some of Dawg's tunes, and when David discovered Darol knew all the parts and Richard's solos, he asked him to come back the next week. The invite stretched into nine years.
> 
> 
> 
> For anyone interested, you can still find a fascinating interview with him on NPR's website at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=1765248


Speaking of Anger, anyone familiar with this stuff:

http://www.peterkaukonen.com/music/traveller.html

?

And now we can trace the roots of New Acoustic to the string band
that Peter K and me played in in the mid 60's when he was a student
at Stockholm U !!

----------


## SternART

Sweet Pete, I think his brother Jorma's tune "Embryonic Journey".....on Surrealistic Pillow.... 
is kinda like roots music for me, that acoustic instrumental really spoke to me in my youth.

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## AlanN

An old Saheeb flyer

----------


## Patrick Melly

"..but in the long run Darol Anger has been the most adventurous and new acoustic music's greatest ambassador. "

I can share a Darol story. I left San Francisco in '78 to enter grad school at UCLA film school, leaving behind my musical buddies but bringing along my enthusiasm for the DGQ. In '82 I was finishing my thesis film, building the tracks for the final mix, trying various cuts from recordings against the picture, and I tried a Anger/Barbara Higbie fiddle/piano duet called Brann St. Sonata ( "Fiddlistics', Kaleidoscope F-8) which was perfect. I found Darol playing with Mike Marshall at McCabe's (touring as "the Duo"), and introduced myself by the coffee machine. Darol and Barbara agreed to score the movie; I flew them down to LA when the time came & put them up in my daughter's room in our Venice apartment. We recorded them on the film department scoring stage, gathering a small crowd around the open door as they rehearsed between takes. I still remember that day as a peak experience; they came prepped with scores for the various cues, but could improvise anything,could take any suggestion and run with it. The score evolved throughout the day - changing shape as the two of them played with their eyes glued to the screen, playing off of gestures, emotions, looks...whatever caught their eye.
Plus, as others have said before me, Darol is a great guy - a pleasure to be around. Barbara as well. Their collaborations
are well worth revisiting: Tideline , Live at Montreux, Sign Language.

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## SternART

Cool story Patrick.......that was a great partnership back in the day.

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## humblemex

Saheeb

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## Spruce

_"To tell the truth, though, I'd much rather have a DVD of the DGQ show."_

Duh.... # 

Anybody attend a Tom Waits/DGQ show at Zellerbach in '78 or so??
That was an interesting evening....

Or a gig when the Guild of American Luthiers had their convention in SF, and hired the DGQ to play?
(And lost their shirt in the process)....

One of my favs was their second gig, at a church in Berkeley....
No mics, just pure tones in a good room...

Man, you know you're getting old when you realize that it's been a few months shy of 40 years since the first time you saw Hendrix, even though it seems like yesterday....

----------


## Peter Hackman

> "..but in the long run Darol Anger has been the most adventurous and new acoustic music's greatest ambassador. "
> 
> I can share a Darol story. I left San Francisco in '78 to enter grad school at UCLA film school, leaving behind my #musical buddies but bringing along my enthusiasm for the DGQ. In '82 I was finishing my thesis film, building the tracks for the final mix, trying various cuts from recordings against the picture, and I tried a #Anger/Barbara Higbie fiddle/piano duet called Brann St. Sonata ( "Fiddlistics', Kaleidoscope F-8) #which was perfect. I found Darol playing with Mike Marshall at McCabe's (touring as "the Duo"), and introduced myself by the coffee machine. Darol and Barbara agreed to score the movie; I flew them down to LA when the time came & put them up in my daughter's room in our Venice apartment. #We recorded them on the film department scoring stage, gathering a small crowd around the open door as they rehearsed between takes. I still remember that day as a peak experience; they came prepped with #scores for the various cues, but could improvise anything,could take any suggestion and run with it. The score evolved throughout the day - changing shape as the two of them played with their eyes glued to the screen, playing off of gestures, emotions, looks...whatever caught their eye.
> Plus, as others have said before me, Darol is a great guy - a pleasure to be around. Barbara as well. Their collaborations
> are well worth revisiting: #Tideline , Live at Montreux, #Sign Language.


Tideline is a fantastic album. As, to my ears, it somehow connects
with DGQ and all the stuff it inspired, the prevalent mutli-labels
become even more ridiculous. 

But who am I to oppose #the almighty Internet? Inserting the disc
in my computer I can unequivocally determine the appropriate label
for any commercial CD. DGQ: country. Mike Marshall, Gator
Strut: Jazz. Marshall's Brazilian Duets: Folk.
And Tideline, the ultimate insult: *New Age*.

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## SternART

Saheeb.....they would end shows with the original "fiddles of doom quartet". Usually would play a Monroe tune or medley......take it to the outer limits and back. It is always fun seeing Mike on fiddle too....seems that Gator can play anything with strings. Looks like Dave musta come from another gig or something, he looks a little over dressed for Saheeb, doesn't he?

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## jasona

> Anybody attend a Tom Waits/DGQ show at Zellerbach in '78 or so?? That was an interesting evening....


Shoot, there a recording of this out there? One of my greatest thrills from my time in California was bumping into Tom Waits at a gas station on the 5 between LA and the Bay.

----------


## Monte37

Spruce,
I was at that gig in Berkely as well. We do date ourselves this way. What was the name of that place? Those were all such great concerts as we were seeing it all for the first time. Didn't Rudy play that day as well?

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## Spruce

I don't remember Rudy, but the church was on Bonita Street...

I _do_ remember that they played "Lonnie's Lament", an old Coltrane tune that I never heard them play again...

----------


## humblemex

> Anybody attend a Tom Waits/DGQ show at Zellerbach in '78 or so??
> That was an interesting evening....
> 
> Or a gig when the Guild of American Luthiers had their convention in SF, and hired the DGQ to play?
> (And lost their shirt in the process)....


Don't remember the Tom Waits show. Sorry I missed that one somehow. The only DGQ Zellerbach shows I have any record of were January 1980 and November 1982, when the DGQ opened for Big Mon.

I do remember the GAL gig, though. That was July, 1980. Not only did the DGQ play (Anger, Marshall, O'Connor, Wasserman) but Dawg did a bluegrass set with Sandy Rothman on banjo. I think that was the first time he met Stephen Gilchrist face to face.

----------


## AlanN

Man, that is some photo. I would not have recognized that man as Gilchrist.

----------


## SternART

27 years has added a tad of grey on both them boyz.

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## humblemex

The Quintet performed regularly throughout 1977 but began to slow down as 1978 got underway. Lots of things were happening. In January, Tony went into the studio at 1750 Arch to start recording "Manzanita" with Sam Bush, Ricky Skaggs, Jerry Douglas, and Dawg. Around the same time, Grisman accepted a commission from Dino De Laurentiis to write the score for "King of the Gypsies," a big budget film starring Sterling Hayden, Shelley Winters, Susan Sarandon, Brooke Shields, Judd Hirsch, Annette O'Toole and Eric Roberts. When De Laurentiis asked David who would like to hire to execute the score, he told him Stephane Grappelli. I believe Tony and Diz Disley were featured on guitar. Shortly thereafter, David also began work on "Hot Dawg," the second DGQ album.

The film faded pretty quickly after release, though it was not a stinko by any means. Roberts even drew a Golden Globe nomination for Best Motion Picture Male Acting Debut. The score was terrific, and both Stephane and David appeared in the film as musicians. Famed San Francisco producer David Rubinson told me he thought it was the best film score since "The Third Man," a classic film noire starring Joseph Cotton and Orson Welles made in 1949. High praise indeed. A soundtrack recording was planned but scrapped when the film disappeared so quickly. However, at least two of the tunes, "Gypsy Swing" and "The Tipsy Gypsy" made it into the DGQ repertoire for a while. Unfortunately, the film has not been released on DVD but I just ordered a used VHS copy on Amazon. There are still at least 20 available. 

In April, Stephane made his annual appearance at the Music Hall with his band, guitarists John Ethridge and Diz Disley, and bassist Brian Torff. David and Tony sat in on several tunes. Dawg's beard was just growing back from having been shaved for the movie. It was a great night, with Tiny Moore and Frank Wakefield showing up backstage to jam and meet Stephane.


L-R: Tony Rice, Stephane Grappelli, David Grisman, Diz Disley. Bassist Brian Torff is hidden. And, no, you are not hallucinating. Tony is playing an Ovation, whom he briefly had an endorsement deal with. Fortunately, free guitars and a couple of bucks were not enough, and he got over it quickly.

----------


## SternART

Wasn't it John Carlini in the movie on guitar......and there is a great scene with Grisman, kinda like last men standing? no they were sitting...... leaning against each other.....last guys from the band still playing......wasted..... at the end of the Gipsy wedding bash. You know Gipsies party hard....Been awhile since I've seen it, seems like maybe they had a D'Angelico archtop that John was playing. Grisman had a BIG moustache, he wasn't totally clean shaven, Gipsy garb of fedora type hat & vest over a big collar shirt. He looked quite the part. Anyone seen it more recently than me?

----------


## humblemex

That would make sense that Carlini was the other guitar player since he was intimately involved in the production of the score. I haven't seen the movie since it came out, so I'm looking forward to getting the VHS tape from Amazon.

----------


## Peter Hackman

> L-R: Tony Rice, Stephane Grappelli, David Grisman, Diz Disley. Bassist Brian Torff is hidden. And, no, you are not hallucinating. Tony is playing an Ovation, whom he briefly had an endorsement deal with. Fortunately, free guitars and a couple of bucks were not enough, and he got over it quickly.


There's reference to Ovation on several of Rice's Rounder albums.
Not sure how much he used their products, but to my ears several of the
cuts do not have the typical sound of his D28. I understand
he also used a Cruz.

----------


## mandopete

You know, that picture above with Frank Wakefield makes me think that we have not discussed Frank's influence on the Dawg. Given Frank's unique vision of music and mandolin playing, do other's here think that is part of the evolution of Dawg music that has been somewhat overlooked?

----------


## Scotti Adams

> You know, that picture above with Frank Wakefield makes me think that we have not discussed Frank's influence on the Dawg. Given Frank's unique vision of music and mandolin playing, do other's here think that is part of the evolution of Dawg music that has been somewhat overlooked?


Absoluletly...On the Ovation issue...Crowe told me that T used the Ovation on a few cuts of the infamous New South 0044 Lp..Crowe himself used the Ovation on the Gospel cuts on the Bluegrass Album Band Lps in which he did the Scruggs style guitar pickin.

----------


## mandolooter

Im with Pete on this...what do you guys think?

Thats a great pic of Frank n them too...thanks for all these great pic's Jon!

----------


## mandopete

I was looking for that photo of Dave and Frank jamming (I think it was Fincastle), but I coudn't find it anywhere. That has always been one of my favs.

----------


## mandolooter

Ya know, I don't think I've ever seen a pic of Frank with a mando in his hand without a big smile...he's one happy guy when he's pickin!

----------


## SternART

Frank taught Grisman how to play like Monroe.......I think at the time Wakefield had the best handle on
Monroe's style. Of course this was when David was a pup, he produced a Red Allen album when he was very young,
I think less than 20 years old.....mid 1960's maybe. So he was hangin' with Frank in those days. Then there is 
the Kitchen Tapes. Frank was definitely a mentor to Grisman.....much like David was to Statman.

----------


## mandopete

I agree, but I think it's more than just that. #While Frank certainly influenced David's view of bluegrass, I think it also spilled over into Dawg music as well. #Frank's adventurous spirit must have surely had an effect on Grisman in his earlier years. #There's that unique version of Black Mountain Rag on Early Dawg and I've always thought that Frank's way of thinking about music must have crept into David's consciousness.

----------


## AlanN

> I was looking for that photo of Dave and Frank jamming (I think it was Fincastle), but I coudn't find it anywhere. #That has always been one of my favs.


T'weren't Fincastle.

That was during the late 70's, when Frank had re-located to California and recorded the Blue Stay Away From Me record with Glik and Tom Stern, and Lindner boys.

----------


## AlanN

Cool book, fer sure. But had the ladder + fire hydrant cartoon, never did get that &lt;g&gt;.

----------


## humblemex

> I agree, but I think it's more than just that. #While Frank certainly influenced David's view of bluegrass, I think it also spilled over into Dawg music as well.....I've always thought that Frank's way of thinking about music must have crept into David's consciousness.


David has widely proclaimed his debt to Frank's help and influence, particularly in terms of composition.

----------


## SternART

I didn't think Frank had written very many tunes back in those Red Allen days, but there were some chestnuts....New Camptown Races among others.....he had a very prolific period of writing tons of instrumentals all titled "Jesus Loves this Mandolin Player #, all were consecutively numbered, but this was at a later point in his career. If I'm not mistaken, he started writing them after surviving a serious automobile accident. Someone ought record all those while they can.....some sound New Acoustic, others classical, all very complex instrumentals basically for solo mandolin. I think there are dozens of them. Anyone else know more about these? What year did he start writing them?

David told me Cedar Hill has the chords from a Wakefield tune for the A part....and he added his melody over it, and the minor/major bridge to it.

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## AlanN

> #I think there are dozens of them. #Anyone else know more about these? What year did he start writing them?
> 
> 
> 
> David told me Cedar Hill has the chords from a Wakefield tune for the A part....and he added his melody over it, and the minor/major bridge to it.


I think there are dozens of them. Anyone else know more about these? What year did he start writing them?

Inspired by his solo performances during the early 70's at the famous Cafe Lena in Saratoga Springs, NY, where Lena (now deceased) told him to polish those up and record them.

The tune is "Couldn't Leave Well Enough Alone"

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## Spruce

I have some weird and wonderful memories of Frank playing the Opry in Burlington, Vermont, in '73 or so...

He did a whole solo set of those "Jesus Loves" tunes, but before tearing into them, he took every microphone on stage (7-8 or so??) and set it up in front of his mandolin....

It looked like a White House press conference up there, with Frank grinnin' that feces-eating grin, and banging away on those tunes....

Pretty memorable... #

----------


## Emonortem

Hey guys, thanks so much for this thread. I just purchased a whole lot of Dawg music on iTunes and reading this thread has been amazing, allowing me to attach a story to the music I'm listening to (and trying to play!). Not to mention it's given me something to do at work for the last three days!

I've got a question, how do you pronounce Stephane Grapelli's name? He sure was good... 

Once again, thanks for this insider perspective for this young guy! I'm totally loving learning all this "history"!

----------


## tango_grass

> I've got a question, how do you pronounce Stephane Grapelli's name? #He sure was good...


Stef- on Grappelli. 

But I am probably wrong.

If I was stuck on a desert island and had to jam with one musician for the rest of eternity, it would have to be Stephane Grappelli. I love him.

Live 
David Grisman with Stephane Grappelli has to be the best live jazz album ever. To me.

----------


## humblemex

DYLAN AND THE DAWG

I digress a few years to recount a story David told me when I was preparing a chapter for a book on fan encounters with Dylan a few years ago. Sorry, don't have photos of the two together. This surely falls under the umbrella of Dawgology.


"Though we were there at the same time, and played in some of the same clubs, I didnt know Bob Dylan in the Village. I used to see him around on the street, but I didn't really appreciate that singer/songwriter sort of music then. To me, they were just singing songs and not tuning their guitars. I was into the real folk musicians, like Clarence Ashley, Roscoe Holcomb, and Doc Watson.

	My first real contact with him was in 1974, when he called me out of the blue for some mandolin lessons. I didnt really believe it was him on the phone. It sounded like him, but Id never met the guy. A half-hour later, he was on my back porch with a blonde Gibson F-4. He stayed for three days and then disappeared. Bob was a fine student, but he wasnt that interested in the technical stuff. I showed him some basic fingering and some chords, but I think he just wanted to learn how to write a song on the mandolin. He was interested in bluegrass music and all the other stuff that I was into, so we mostly just listened to records and hung out. I charged him $15.00 a day for the lessons, and he still owes me three dollars.

	The next week, my band opened for Bill Monroe at the Palomino Club in Los Angeles. Dylan was real interested in Bill, so Id told him about the gig. So here we are, playing our new music at a gig opening for Bill Monroe. After our set--Bill had come in after we started--I was out in the parking lot and [violinist] Richard Greene came out and said, I just saw Bill Monroe, and he ignored me. I stood next to him for 10 minutes, and he didnt acknowledge my existence. See, not only had Richard played in Bills band, but Bill had always praised him. But this night, he was giving Richard the cold shoulder.

	I said, Well, hes not gonna do that to me. We were tight; he used to call me up onstage; I named my son Monroe Grisman. He was into me when I was playing successor to the throne, but I wasnt so sure how hed be now that I wasnt playing just bluegrass. So I went inside, and Im standing in the doorway to the dressing room, wondering if I should go say hello or what, and all of a sudden who shows up but Dylan and Robbie Robertson. Bob says, I really dug the set. Hey, I want to meet the man! So, here I am about to be possibly snubbed by Bill, and I have to introduce Bob Dylan to him. Suddenly, Bill turns toward me, sticks out his hand, and smiles. He was real impressed when I introduced Dylan to him; they sang I Saw the Light together backstage."

----------


## Spruce

_"I charged him $15.00 a day for the lessons, and he still owes me three dollars."_

----------


## mandopete

Great story Jon!

----------


## gr_store_feet

Fantastic story and a truly great thread . Thanks again.

----------


## craichead

> Originally Posted by  (humblemex @ Mar. 15 2007, 21:26)
> 
> L-R: Tony Rice, Stephane Grappelli, David Grisman, Diz Disley. Bassist Brian Torff is hidden. And, no, you are not hallucinating. Tony is playing an Ovation, whom he briefly had an endorsement deal with. Fortunately, free guitars and a couple of bucks were not enough, and he got over it quickly.
> 
> 
> There's reference to Ovation on several of Rice's Rounder albums.
> Not sure how much he used their products, but to my ears several of the
> cuts do not have the typical sound of his D28. I understand
> he also used a Cruz.


Manzanita was recorded using the Ovation. Not sure which tunes, but I think the title track is one of them. According to his wife, Pamela, he still has it. There's some stuff on Tony's message board about it a couple years ago. Maybe you could search it if you're interested.

I wonder if he still has the old Hylo Brown guitar he used to use.....

----------


## craichead

> You know, that picture above with Frank Wakefield makes me think that we have not discussed Frank's influence on the Dawg. Given Frank's unique vision of music and mandolin playing, do other's here think that is part of the evolution of Dawg music that has been somewhat overlooked?


If you listen close to Early Dawg, some of the licks are note for note Wakefield.

----------


## humblemex

> [&#92;On the Ovation issue...Crowe told me that T used the Ovation on a few cuts of the infamous New South 0044 Lp..Crowe himself used the Ovation on the Gospel cuts on the Bluegrass Album Band Lps in which he did the Scruggs style guitar pickin.


Who am I to argue with J.D. but I am skeptical of the claim that Tony used it on Rounder 0044. That was recorded in 1975, and the first time I saw it surface was at the Grappelli gig in 1978. That's also the year I shot the photo for this poster for Ovation. Maybe he had it that long, but I wonder why Ovation waited until 1978 to use him as an endorsee. Whatever, it just goes to prove the old adage that it's the player and not the guitar that ultimately makes the sound. Tony Rice could get tone and power out of a rock with strings on it.

----------


## Scotti Adams

..good point Jon..of course Crowes memory probably isnt as good as it once was. I can see it being used on the Manzanita Lp...that even looks like the same shirt T was wearing on the cover...if my memory is as good as it once was.  ..though it does sound like the 'Bone thru-out the Lp.

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## Spruce

_"Tony Rice could get tone and power out of a rock with strings on it. "_

That's a pretty good description of an Ovation, Jon...

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## jmcgann

Another disheartening fact for 'instrument owners'- if the sound ain't in the hands, how does Tony _always_ sound like a million bucks? (I heard he might have used the Ovation on Hot Dawg* as well...)

I've been told (by friends who have played it) that the Clarence D28 has action so low you can barely get a #breath between the strings and the fingerboard #

*Astute observers will note that I timed my post to coincide with the track on side two on which Mr. Grapelli appears

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## humblemex

> I can see it being used on the Manzanita Lp...that even looks like the same shirt T was wearing on the cover...if my memory is as good as it once was.


Your memory passes the test if you mean the back cover. He wore a silver-colored silk shirt on the cover playing the 28. I was at a couple of the "Manzanita" sessions but I never saw the Ovation there. It's entirely possible that it was used, however.

What an album. I love everything Tony has done but "Manzanita" remains my favorite of all the albums he sang on. What a band that was. The speed in which they worked and the comradrie in the studio was awesome. In October, 1979, Tony, Sam, Ricky, Flux, and Todd reunited under the banner of the Manzanita Band for a one-time gig at the Great American Music Hall and played pretty much the whole album. There's a tape of that gig floating around out there.

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## humblemex

Tony and Ricky at the Manzanita Sessions
January 25, 1978

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## jmcgann

For people with banjo-phobia, Manzanita is a great introduction/seduction into bluegrass- I have sprung it on many a student at Berklee who flipped for it! A desert island disc, for sure!

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## humblemex

Enough about the Ovation. Let's talk about Tony's legendary D-28. I understand there is a current article in a magazine about it, but I haven't read it. What I offer here is a transcript of my interview with him in 1977 for a Guitar Player article. It's long but worth the effort I think.

Unfortunately, I only have black and white shots of the guitar. I turned over my color slides to Tony at one point when he was doing an album cover and never got them back. That was my fault for not pursuing them.


HOW DID YOU MEET CLARENCE?

 # # #I met Clarence when I was nine and he was 16. My father's band was playing on the same radio show as the Country Boys, which is the name the White Brothers used then. They were out in back of the building playing when I walked out and saw this cat playing that guitar. It was the first D-28 I'd ever seen up close and I was really struck by the white binding. There was something about the guitar that made it really look old and musty. It was all beat up. I asked him if I could play it and he said "Sure." Back then Clarence didn't play any lead at all. He just picked rhythm and runs.

 # # # That old guitar really fascinated me and it finally ended up setting the standard for what I wanted to hear from a guitar. From that point on, nothing else sounded right to me. There were a couple I heard down through the years that really came close. Bill Monroe used to have a guitar that everybody that joined his band played. It came with the gig. Lester Flatt played it, Jimmy Martin played it -- a lot of cats like that. It was stolen during Peter Rowan's tenure in the band.

WHEN DID YOU FINALLY ACQUIRE THE GUITAR?

 # # About two years ago [1975]. I haven't had it that long. That's a really interesting story. What's more interesting is how Clarence lost it or rather how he got himself in the position that he couldn't get it back. The story was told to me by Bobby Sloan, who played fiddle with the Colonels on "Appalacian Swing."

 # # In 1963, the Colonels went back east for a tour. A couple of years earlier they had met a fellow named Joe Miller, whose family owned a chain of liquor stores in Southern California. Joe really liked bluegrass, and especially the Colonels, so he followed them around for quite awhile. At one point, he had told them that if they ever got strapped for money they should let him know. Sure enough, they got back there and got broke and hungry, and Joe ended up sending everybody in the band money except Roger Bush. Bobby had seen a couple of fiddles he wanted, so he called Joe and had him send some money. Clarence also borrowed some money from him.

 # # They all got back to California and nobody really let Joe know they didn't have any money to pay him back. They just sort of figured that he would shine it on and forget it, except for Clarence. He was just getting out of bluegrass and getting into the electric guitar, so he decided he would give Joe the guitar to hold until he could get him his money back. Later on, they had some kind of words or misunderstanding about the debt of the whole band, and Joe decided the guitar was lawfully his and that Clarence couldn't get it back for any amount of money.

 # # Right up until he died, Clarence had really tried to get it back because he had made a lot of money playing with the Byrds. He offered some ridiculous amount of money--several thousand dollars--but Joe refused to sell it to him as a matter of principle. Roland and Roger Bush also tried to get it back but he just wouldn't give it up to them. Incidentally, Billy Ray Latham was here just a while back and said all those cats are really pissed at me because I got it.

SO HOW DID IT FINALLY END UP IN YOUR HANDS?

	After hearing the story, I picked up the phone one day on a wild hunch and called Miller's Liquor Store in Pasadena. Sure enough, I hit the right place. This guy's brother answered and gave me Joe's number. I called him up and he vaguely remembered me as a little kid who was an up-and-coming picker that followed Clarence around and learned licks from him in the dressing room. I asked him if would consider selling the guitar to me and he said yes. I sort of had a hunch that since Clarence was killed he might have had some regrets having the guitar in his house knowing how badly Clarence wanted it back. Sure enough, that was the scene. He wanted to get rid of it and was just waiting for the right guy to call. When he said he would sell it, I was sure it was going to be a lot of money because the guitar is worth a lot of money. It's a 1934, which was the first year they made them, and there were only 11 made. Norman Blake has one, and I think about six of them are accounted for.

 # # Right after Clarence had given him the guitar, Joe took it to this old violin maker in El Monte to refinish it and get it back into shape. By the time Clarence got rid of it, it was in pretty rough shape. He would grab a D-18 when he played lead because the neck on the 'bone was bowed up and the top was sunk down and scratched up really bad. It hardly had any finish left on it. Plus, Clarence had gotten drunk and shot a hole it once. Still, it sound soooooo good.

	So we got together on the thing and he said he needed to get it appraised. I thought he was going to take it to McCabe's or some place like that, and I fully expected that was going to have to go down to the bank and take out a loan for five or six thousand dollars. I had made up my mind that I was going to get it if I had to pay $15,000 for it. At that point it was no longer a question of money. It was available and I was going to get it.

	Joe took it back to the old violin maker to have it appraised. I don't know where he got his information, but he told Joe that if the guitar was in mint condition it might be worth a grand. He estimated it to be worth five or six hundred dollars in its condition. I offered him the benefit of the doubt - $600. I got a plane ticket and flew out to L.A. to pick it up. I couldn't get to sleep that night knowing I was going to get my hands on that guitar the next morning. Of course I didn't know that it had been refinished. I thought it would look like it had when I first saw it. I remembered every little detail about it. After I picked it up, I took it to Randy Wood who reset the neck, re-bound, and re-fretted it. It's stayed in good shape since then.

----------


## humblemex

The patched bullet hole:

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## mandopete

> Enough about the Ovation. Let's talk about Tony's legendary D-28.


I was interviewed by a local magazine about the Wintergrass music festival here in Tacoma. #Here's a snippet from the article that appeared in January edition of the City Arts magazine...

_Pete Goodall, a Seattle fan and picker, remembers volunteering backstage about ten years ago. #Tony Rice, one of the most influential guitar players in bluegrass, had just performed on a guitar previously owned by the late Clarence White, another legendary player.

"Tony Rice was there with the famous Martin guitar lying in its blue anvil flight case," Goodall recalls. #"I took a good long look at it and thought about how much great music had been made with that guitar. #A young man, maybe fourteen or fifteen, was gawking at it as well, when Tony said, 'Go ahead, play it!' Well the look on that young man's face was worth the price of admission! #He was a pretty good player and Tony commented that he sounded real good. #The boy's mother took a picture of him holding the guitar and standing next to Tony Rice. #To me that's what bluegrass music is all about"._

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## mandopete

> The boy's mother took a picture of him holding the guitar and standing next to Tony Rice.


I got one too, but I was too shy to ask to hold the guitar.

&lt;grins&gt;

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## jmcgann

Good man, Tony!!!

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## JEStanek

Classy! Thanks for the story Pete!
Jamie

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## SternART

The same story T. tells of seeing the guitar for the first time as a youngin'
and Clarence letting him play it.......What goes around comes around......

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## AlanN

I guess this topic is all things Dawg,so...

Just put on my burned-from-LP copy of Dawg Grass/Dawg Jazz. Had been a while since I listened. Man, it sounds better than ever. The opening track on side 1 has Dawg doing his funky/deft/smooth thing in front of a swingin band. His triplet flurries are clean and perfect. And on the grass side, Happy Birthday Bill Monroe is perfect.

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## mandopete

> Just put on my burned-from-LP copy of Dawg Grass/Dawg Jazz.


Yes, one of my all-time favorite Grisman recordings. I wish it would get re-released on CD. Looks like I'm gonna have to follow your lead Alan!

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## Spruce

_ "The boy's mother took a picture of him holding the guitar and standing next to Tony Rice. To me that's what bluegrass music is all about"._

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## AlanN

And that is David Grier on Clarence's left, no?

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## JEStanek

I want to know what's in the Coleman cooler! That picture is almost Brady-esque...

Jamie

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## mandopete

Looks like your average weekend at Darrington.

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## tango_grass

> Looks like your average weekend at Darrington.


Yeah, Pretty much.


The guitar player in a bluegrass band I play with has one of the Martin Clarence White D-28 reproductions and man does that guitar kill! I swear I go to practice just to get 5 minutes to play it. #Now if only I could get ahold of Tony's guitar... # #
 # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #

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## humblemex

> I've been told (by friends who have played it) that the Clarence D28 has action so low you can barely get a #breath between the strings and the fingerboard #


Granted it's been more than 25 years since I've played it, but that was not my experience. I found the action quite high. Also, I just found an interview I did with Darol about Tony where he said, "This band is the rhythm dukes! Tony can get more sheer volume out of an acoustic guitar than anybody I've ever heard. You just don't see that many guitar players who can get through a really fast tune at peak power and volume like he can. The action on Tony's guitar is like two inches off the fingerboard, which contributes to his power."

I don't question your friends' experiences, but I can't understand how he could get that kind of power with a really low action without rattling and breaking up. But then he does a lot of things on a guitar I never thought possible.

I just dug out another inteview I did with Tony when I was writing the liner notes for "Acoustics." He says that he played the 'bone on everything except "Four on Six" (Ovation) and "New Waltz" (Santa Cruz).

Maybe someday I'll get around to copying and transcribing all those early interviews with David, Tony, Darol, Mike, and Mark and post them. They're really interesting and insightful.

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## Spruce

_"Maybe someday I'll get around to copying and transcribing all those early interviews with David, Tony, Darol, Mike, and Mark and post them."_

Well, you do _seem_ to have a lot of time these days, Jon...  

Really great to see you posting to these pages. Facinating thread all the way around....

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## johnparrott

Yes, this is a fascinating thread.

It could be that the guitar Clarence is playing in that fun photo was built by Mark Whitebook...

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## Lefty&French

once again...

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## mandopete

Yeah Officer, I was, um, you know, resting...

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## Spruce

_"Looks like your average weekend at Darrington."_

That dude even _looks_ like Mike Oenbring...

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## JEStanek

Jon, Thanks so much for this thread, and to you others who have shared stories as well. It's a valuable history.

Check this link for my reference to the Brady-esque photo from the Library of Congress.
Meant as a compliment, Jon.

Jamie

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## Peter Hackman

> once again...


Whiskey before Breakfast?

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## Lefty&French

I just wanted to say "One more time" because I posted this very picture some times ago... and wondereed if some experts could perhaps identify the guitar!

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## johnparrott

No expert here, but I saw and played a Whitebook guitar in Louisville that Country Gazette travelled with in the late 70s, and it looked very much like the one in that photo. Al Munde was playing (and singing) "Cherokee" on it backstage , and then he sang a short ditty called "The Ballad of Patty Hearst". It was a great sounding guitar, and I hope to play one like it again some day.

Let's see what those experts say, ...

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## humblemex

> I just wanted to say "One more time" because I posted this very picture some times ago... and wondereed if some experts could perhaps identify the guitar!


I believe it is a Whitebook, built by Mark Whitebook. That's something of a guess since I don't know of any other non-Martin acoustics that Clarence was associated with except one built by Roy Noble. The Whitebook is the guitar he was using at the time he was killed.

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## humblemex

A topic recently started in General Mandolin Discussions called "dawg" questioned the right and rationale for Grisman to call his music "Dawg Music" because it was made up of genres (bluegrass, jazz, classical, etc.) that already existed. You can check out the discussion so far on this but I've decided to post Dawg's explanation of labeling as he told me in an early '80s interview to this ongoing topic of Dawgology. It was triggered by a question I asked about the term "New Acoustic Music."

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE TERM "NEW ACOUSTIC MUSIC" AS COINED BY DAROL?

	"Well it doesn't mean the same thing to me that it does to Darol. I sort of tend to take things literally, and I think it's too general of a term for me. New acoustic music would encompass *any* new acoustic music. Wynton Marsalis is playing new acoustic music and so is the Kronos Quartet. And, actually, how new is new? How old is old? I think he's trying to talk specifically about new acoustic string music. That's why I use the term "Dawg" because I look at it as a personal thing, and I think that's the way music should be looked at. That's what Bill Monroe was doing when he coined the term "bluegrass." He was trying to say that this is *my* music.

	"Basically I think it's helpful to have a label but I figure what I'm doing isn't new. It's just me. When I think of "new" I think of modern. When I think of modern, to me there are things that went down in 1911 that are more modern than what I do. Plus new is always fading into old. I'm a firm believer that there's nothing new under the sun. And I don't think something has to be new to be good.

	"I understand what Darol is getting at I but just wouldn't define it that way. It's too general. Maybe it should be New Acoustic String Music, but that gets pretty awkward to say. It's just a label. The term 'bluegrass' has no real meaning now. To some producer in Hollywood, bluegrass is anything that has a banjo in it or even anything with a vague country sound. I think categorizing comes after the fact. Actually, I like the term New Acoustic Music but it just encompasses more for me than it does for Darol. Terms, when used to define something, should be specific, not general. It's not important to call it anything. It's important to hear it."

BUT MUSIC IS CATEGORIZED BY THE MUSIC INDUSTRY IN ORDER TO MARKET AND DISTRIBUTE IT EFFICIENTLY.

	"Darol ends up on the jazz charts and so do I. Ricky Skaggs ends up on the country charts. As far as I'm concerned I spent more of my career delving into bluegrass than I did jazz, but there are no charts for bluegrass music. I'm not really into a movement to institute a new category. I don't want to call my thing anything but mine. It's all about marketing. That's why we're trying to come up with these names. That's why I've tried to make a record that has a marketing concept. Finally, though, having a term like "Dawg music" doesn't mean a damn thing unless somebody can hear it and react to it."

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## mandopete

Yeah, every time I go to Tower Records I'm looking for the "Dawg" section...

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## CharlieKnuth

I wish Tower Records were still around to look for Dawg music or any kind of music. I hate to see record stores die.

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## Peter Hackman

As I said before, there's an oracle deciding the labels of everything,
the computer.

Not quite sure whether this information is on the CDs or on the Internet,
however, checking one of my "New Acoustic" favorites,
Mike Marshall, and inserting a few of his CDs,
 I found out:
Edgar Meyer: Uncommon Ritual: Classical
Anger-Marshall Band: Brand New Can: Folk
same band:Jam: Rock 
Marshall et al, Wine Country: country (of course!)
The Duo, 1983: Country
Gator Strut: Jazz
which means that the Bach E major partita is both country and jazz,
truly genre-busting!

Almost everything by DGQ is country, except Grisman-Grapelli,
where I leave the label as an exercise.

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## SternART

&lt;&lt;Yeah, every time I go to Tower Records I'm looking for the "Dawg" section...&gt;&gt;

Darn categories....like which XM station would you tune in...to hear the DGQ?!
I hear DGBX on their BG station, or Sam Bush on their Alternative Country station,
but what category would play Anger & Marshall or the DGQ?

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## humblemex

> As I said before, there's an oracle deciding the labels of everything,
> the computer.


Boy, that sure renders labels meaningless doesn't it? The funny part is that most track lists and labels are entered into the CDDB data base by record labels or by people who already own the CD. You'd think they would know better. Dawg music may be a lot of things but it sure isn't country.

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## mandopete

Yeah, it's more like latinjazzgrass to me!

...and I'm with Grisman on the term "New Acoustic Music" - that's vacant. Just about as bad "World Music" - ugh!

----------


## Jeff A

Arthur, I have heard DGQ on the Beyond Jazz channel on XM. I don't know what number it is.

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## chirorehab

Beyond Jazz is channel #72... I heard DGQ there, too!

Great thread...please keep it going!

Your experiences are priceless. With the pictures, I almost feel like I am watching a documentary....

Thanks & keep it coming!

I'd like to hear Don Steirnberg talk about the time Bill Monroe, Dawg & (I think) Frank W. came to see him play..

Eric

My 2 favorite albums of all time:
The first DGQ album & Manzanita

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## humblemex

1978 marked a year of change for the DGQ. As the year began, Tony started recording "Manzanita." A few months later, Darol began work on his album, "Fiddleistics." On Feb 10, the original DGQ with Tony, Darol, Todd, and Bill Amatneek played its final gig at the Great American Music Hall.

During those early months, David began writing and recording the score for "King of the Gypsies." Planning and writing also began on the band's second album, "Hot Dawg." Somewhere in the midst of this, he developed a severe case of tendonitis in his left wrist that dramatically restricted his playing. The condition lasted for months and threatened the progress of recording projects and live performances. His first move was to call in Andy Statman to help on rhythm parts, working with Tony and John Carlini on guitar, Stephane Grappelli on violin, and the great Ray Brown on bass.

In April, during the recording process, Stephane played his annual gig at the Music Hall discussed earlier, with David and Tony sitting in on several tunes. The David Grisman Orchestra gig with Statman, Buell, Richard Greene, Darol, and John Carlini came a month later on May 27. The night before, however, the DGQ played the Music Hall as a quartet with Todd on bass.

At some point, it became necessary to re-do some of the "Gypsies" soundtrack, and Andy couldn't get loose to fly out to L.A. Right about that time, June 1978, a 21-year-old kid from Florida named Mike Marshall literally turned up at David's door one day.

Mike and Dawg had been corresponding for almost two years by then, and Mike had an open invitation to visit anytime he was in the neighborhood. His timing couldn't have been better. In addition to David's injury, the DGQ was very much in a state of flux. Todd had decided he no longer wanted to play mandolin; his primary instrument was bass, and he wanted to do that, which explained the quartet gig. David immediately hired Mike to flesh out the movie soundtrack and set him up to start jamming with Darol, Tony, and Todd.

"I'd heard a tape of him so I knew he was good," David told me in a later interview. "He's the kind of guy where you notice his brilliance right away, and I've been noticing it since. He's got his own way of doing things." When the soundtrack was completed, Mike flew back to Florida to close down his teaching business and pack his things. A month later he moved to the Bay Area and immediately began recording with the DGQ for "Hot Dawg." When Grappelli returned to the Bay Area in October for another Music Hall gig, Mike and David sat in with the band. Tony Rice was conspicuously absent.

----------


## AlanN

Who's the guy on the Ovation? maybe Mark O.?

----------


## DSDarr

> Who's the guy on the Ovation?


Looks a bit like Mark O'Connor to me.

-David

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## Spruce

John Ethridge me thinks...

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## Lefty&French

O'C?

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## humblemex

Sorry about that. Bruce is right; it's John Ethridge

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## SternART

Yep....John Ethridge, the other guitarist at the time was Diz Dizzley if I'm not mistaken. This is in the pre-Martin Taylor era, for Grappelli's touring band.

Jon....I remember a few things a little different.....it wasn't that Todd wanted to stop playing mandolin, but that there was some friction among the band members about the timing, the rhythm. And this is what led to the change, an attempt to perfect the group sound. Tony wasn't happy with the timing. Todd had been a bass player previously in other bands & they tried it out & the groove was back.

Also, wasn't it the great Eddie Gomez on the Grappelli tracks on Hot Dawg.....I know Buell Neidlinger was also on some tracks. Was Ray Brown involved in the rehersals? I don't remember him being on anything prior to the Back to Back sessions. As I recall Todd was on bass on Dawg's Bull, Bill was on one cut too-Janice, his last appearance on a DGQ recording. Then it was Eddie or Buell on the other tracks.

----------


## humblemex

> Yep....John Ethridge, the other guitarist at the time was Diz Dizzley if I'm not mistaken. #This is in the pre-Martin Taylor era, for Grappelli's touring band.
> 
> Jon....I remember a few things a little different.....it wasn't that Todd wanted to stop playing mandolin, but that there was some friction among the band members about the timing, the rhythm. #And this is what led to the change, an attempt to perfect the group sound. #Tony wasn't happy with the timing. Todd had been a bass player previously in other bands & they tried it out & the groove was back.
> 
> Also, wasn't it the great Eddie Gomez on the Grappelli tracks on Hot Dawg.....I know Buell Neidlinger was also on some tracks. #Was Ray Brown involved in the rehersals? #I don't remember him being on anything prior to the Back to Back sessions. #As I recall Todd was on bass on Dawg's Bull, Bill was on one cut too-Janice, his last appearance on a DGQ recording. Then it was Eddie or Buell on the other tracks.


Arthur,

Yes, Diz Disley was the second guitarist. As for the motivation for Todd moving to bass, I think we both might be right. I know Tony was complaining about the groove but I also found a quote from Dawg in an interview I did while writing a story on Mike for Frets that led me to that conclusion.

"I had been thinking about reorganizing the band in the spring of 1978 when Todd had his identity crisis. Remember when I put the Orchestra gig together with Andy, Richard and Buell?.....When I look back on the history of this band, I see that everything happened at just the right time. Todd wanted to play bass and here was Mike." 

Yes, it was Eddie Gomez on "Hot Dawg," but I was talking about the Gypsies soundtrack that Mike was initially called in for. I found out it was Ray Brown on that project from the booklet included with the DGQ-20 collection.

----------


## SternART

Gotchya......I missed that.

----------


## humblemex

Bonus. Just found this in my photo stash. Unfortunately, it's scanned from a print instead of the original transparency so the quality suffers. This is Barkley, immortalized in "Barkley's Bug." Dawg played this tune almost from the start and it finally made it to record on "Quintet '80." David used the image on his 1977 Christmas card.

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## jefflester

> David used the image on his 1977 Christmas card.


It's even got Christmasy colors with the case lining and the grass.

Edit: err, I guess the green stuff is carpet. :-)

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## SternART

Yep.....I've named cats after the Mandolin World News mascot cat......immortalized in the tune Barkley's Bug.

I'm currently on Barkley III.

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Yep.....I've named cats after the Mandolin World News mascot cat......immortalized in the tune Barkley's Bug.
> 
> I'm currently on Barkley III.


Norsk skogkatt? Really beautiful.

----------


## AlanN

Hey SternART,

Nobody is gonna steal yer mandos with that monsty around!

----------


## mandopete

Grrrrrrrrrrrr!

----------


## JEStanek

Nice looking cat, Art.

----------

dawgology is avalible today for free download at grismans site! today i say! tomorrow will be something else.

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## SternART

My Barkley III is a pedigree Maine Coon Cat......Huge cats!!! They are really gentle giants though. I have 4 of these monster cats, parents were show cats, I traded art for them, and think I got the best of the deal. Very cool pets! I've had people visit who were afraid of them, they do have a bit of the wild cat look, and most folks aren't used to cats this size. Heads about the size of a grapefruit.

Hey Jon.....I always though the Dawg himself shot that Barkley cat in the case shot, I remember that X-mas card......man you saved everything!!!
And wasn't Mike already around & in the band for a few months by June of '78?.......hard to remember exactly, but I think I recall Todd teaching Mike the mando parts to the tunes in my studio, and in '78, but much earlier in the year. Tough trying to pinpoint some of these dates, the fact that you have dates on some of your film really helps nail down when the performance photos were taken. There are dates on some of the tapes that were made too. But on some stuff I think it is hard to be really specific. You really do have a wonderful chronology of images......keep 'em coming!!!
I'll try & fill in the gaps, add to the discussion, or if I remember something a bit different, I'll possibly correct any mistakes.... if I can.

----------


## humblemex

> And wasn't Mike already around & in the band for a few months by June of '78?.......hard to remember exactly, but I think I recall Todd teaching Mike the mando parts to the tunes in my studio, and in '78, but much earlier in the year. #Tough trying to pinpoint some of these dates, the fact that you have dates on some of your film really helps nail down when the performance photos were taken. #There are dates on some of the tapes that were made too. #But on some stuff I think it is hard to be really specific. #You really do have a wonderful chronology of images......keep 'em coming!!!
> I'll try & fill in the gaps, add to the discussion, or if I remember something a bit different, I'll possibly correct any mistakes.... if I can.


The mind plays tricks with time. Fortunately, I not only have my photo logs but transcripts of interviews with Dawg, Tony, Mike, Darol, and Mark O'Connor ranging from 1977 up into the '80s and a couple in the '90s. I did stories on all of them at one time or another, and I not only have interviews with each about themselves but I would often interview the others about the person I was doing a story on. Both David and Mike pinpoint Mike's arrival as June, 1978. He immediately started jamming with the band because Dawg was incapacitated, so you aren't that far off in your memories. The band was really getting restless without David to rehearse with.

I still don't know what triggered this decision to start looking back and sharing. Actually, I guess it was when I found my cassettes of live recordings from 1977-1983 and decided it was time to transfer them to digital. It's been really fun to pull out those transcripts that are 25-30 years old and read them, not to mention looking at all the contact sheets. I've also discovered tapes of interviews without transcriptions but I really don't have the motivation or time to transcribe. Maybe someday. Life is way too good and sweet down here in beautiful central Mexico, and I'm as busy as I ever was. The biggest drawback is that I really don't have anyone to play with now, That's probably been the biggest surprise since there are maybe 10,000 English-speaking people living here at peak season, not to mention another 70,000 Mexicans Anybody out there who might be contemplating a vacation to San Miguel de Allende? We have a house next door that we rent out on a weekly and monthly basis for the owner who is only here a couple of weeks each year.

In the meantime, I'll keep it coming as long as I get some feedback and know there are people out there listening and willing to contribute whatever they can.

----------


## tango_grass

A quick note on the song "Dawgology". Its my personal Dawg favorite, I really wish the DGQ would start playing it, I love the different parts and the fact that the solos and part of the melody are in 9/8 time, #really has a cool Flamenco sort of sound.

----------


## Mark in Nevada City

> Hey Wayne.....I first saw Joe Craven jamming mandolin at the Grass Valley festival several years before he met David.
> He was in a Django/Swing type jam & just tearing it up......I even went & woke up my friends to hear him, I knew he
> had it & wasn't surprised at all when he made it into the DGQ. Joe is incredibly musical, it just oozes out of him.
> And so versatile...... need twin mando....need a fiddle solo.....rhythm ace.....comic relief, Joe was a cool addition & he was 
> jammin' at that festival with Rick Montgomery who also joined the band with Joe in a package deal.


Joining this thread a little late. Facinating to hear all this from you guys who were there in the beginning. I have a bit of history with some of the players, but starting in the mid to late 80's when I was in college at Davis, Joe Craven's old stomping grounds. (Wayne, when were you there?)

Joe hosted an a weekly open mic and would sit in with me and some other pickers, in fact that's when I met Rick Montgomery (he wanted to know if I'd consider selling my '54 D-18 Martin--no way! ). Shortly after that I met dobro player Rob Ickes and was playing in some of the same circles. I was a young bluegrass mando player with experimental tendencies, and to find these musicians and the acoustic music scene in the mist of the '80's pop rock that most of my peers were listing to, was heaven come to earth.

I first saw Joe with David in, I think, 1988 (maybe '89? ) at the Strawberry music festival. They did a workshop with Mark O'Connor and Sam Bush and Joe played his fiddle case. From his reaction, it was obvious that that was the first time Sam had seen this. This might have been the last year of New Grass Revival cause I remember one year seeing NGR at Strawberry, then the next Strength in Numbers.

The great musician that Joe Craven is, I've always had a lot of respect for him. One vivid memory I have of Joe from my days in Davis (remember I was in college, and sometimes I couldn't remember something that happened a week later let alone 20 years later) was showing him my "new" mandolin. This would have been '89/early '90 and we were at a party with lots of music and I had just gotten my (then) minty 1917 F4. I didn't want to seem too eager, and one of my buddies said, "Joe you need to check out Mark's new mando." On first inspection Joe said, "it looks playable." ...I was crushed! Then he played a tune with it, then another, then another. When he handed it back he said, "that's a REALLY nice mandolin." Whew, all's right in the world. 

Anyway, I'm still active in the music scene, but just a festival parking lot picker with an occasional stint with the family band or other temporary engagements. I see Joe and Rob Ickes every once in a while, usually just to say "hi," and "remember when..." These guys have gone on to do wonderful things with their music and sometimes I lament not following the path of a pro musician, but my priorities now lie elsewhere and I know those experiences will stay with me a lifetime.

Lots of other memories, like seeing Joe with Grisman & Garcia play a "talking drum solo" or taking a break on a yellow rubber ducky with DGQ, but...enought for now.

cheers, mmm

----------


## AlanN

Nice recollections.

Jon, I, for one, relish your stories. I was Dawg bit big-time and very much enjoy the first-hand accounts on all of them guys. Grisman and all have done remarkable things in the music world. And I finally met him a few weeks ago (and played the Eddie Giacomin mandolin!)

----------


## SternART

Corrado Giacomel mandolin!

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## SternART

Press Release:
DAVID GRISMAN QUINTET ANNOUNCES ADDITION OF PREMIER ACOUSTIC JAZZ GUITARIST FRANK VIGNOLA

San Rafael, CA March 27, 2007  The David Grisman Quintet, acoustic musics most celebrated ensemble has a new guitar player  Frank Vignola.
Frank Vignola is considered by many to be among the top ranked guitarists on the music scene today, having recorded and or performed with an amazing variety of notables from Chet Atkins, to Madonna, Woody Allen, Ringo Starr, Manhattan Transfer, Mark OConnor  to name a few.
The David Grisman Quintet has had quite the roster of stellar guitar personnel throughout its illustrious 30 year career including Tony Rice, Mark OConnor, Mike Marshall, John Carlini and most recently, Enrique Coria. Frank Vignola will have no problem filling the shoes of any of his predecessors and we can all look forward to the next chapter in the enduring legacy of the David Grisman Quintet.

To quote the Dawg himself
I've been happy to call Frank Vignola my friend for some time now, and even happier to announce his membership in the current quintet. Frank is one of the all-time great rhythm men and we all look forward to grooving with him.

----------


## wah

Mark,

I've lived in the Davis area since 1977 when I moved to Winters from the Bay Area. I had three small kids and spent most of my time working and doing family stuff but I got out every now and then. But I only got to see some of this stuff from the outside. 

Wayne

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## humblemex

At the time of the October gig with Stephan, the reorganized DGQ was in the studio hard at work on "Hot Dawg." David's injury was almost healed, primarily through the magic of acupuncture. The last session in the Bay Area was in mid-December, and the band played its first shows with Mike on Dec. 30 and Dec. 31, 1978 at the Great American Music Hall. With Mike around, the mandocello again became a part of the show and Todd's groove was making everyone happy.

----------


## humblemex

That was the New Year's Eve that I ditched the Dead closing Winterland in favor of the DGQ. I wasn't the only Deadhead to do that.

L-R: Todd Phillips, Arthur Stern, Mike Marshall

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## mandopete

...almost 30 years ago!

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## SternART

Hey I remember that coat! I dressed up for NYE. In my art school days I used to shop at the Atelier de Salvation Army.
"Pop" Phillips & I both had way more hair in those days too. The DGQ were hip & happnin' with this lineup.....my personal 
favorite, this band really found the groove. Tony was happy with the changes, Mike was jazzed learning tunes like a sponge....
Darol was dialing in his intonation, and finding his mature voice....and also forging a musical bond/ friendship with Mike, they even
lived just a few houses apart & were always pickin together. Todd was very comfortable holding down the bottom.....and
Dawggy was like a man on a mission....what a cool band...the music in this era was alive with anticipation & excitement at the gigs.....
anything seemed possible. Cool photos Jon! I can't even remember if the Dead did a run of shows and maybe I caught an earlier one, 
by then I was fully converted to a Dawghead. That was over half my life ago. Weird thinking of it like that......

----------


## tango_grass

Are there any live recordings of that group? '77-'79?

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## humblemex

> Are there any live recordings of that group? '77-'79?


There are several floating around though I don't know if any are posted anywhere

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## SternART

Two cuts from that era are on DGQ 20. If you get the box set, you can read this continuing thread and listen along.

----------


## jasona

Looking at Todd and Mike I wonder whether the "Kenora dinner jacket" was the official garb of the DGQ.

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## humblemex

> Two cuts from that era are on DGQ 20. #If you get the box set, you can read this continuing thread and listen along.


My mistake. I thought he was referring to '77-'79 band with Bill on bass. I don't know of any live tapes with Todd on bass. Thanks for directing me to the DGQ-20 set. It's a must-have for all Dawg music lovers.

----------


## jmcgann

Don Hoos of Evanston Il. was a big archiver of live shows back in the cassette days (and may still be for all I know). I am pretty sure there were '77 (and earlier and later) DGQ shows on his list. Somewhere I have a few cassettes...I remember one with Andy Statman sitting in; a pre-DGQ set with Bill Keith and Richard Greene from Tokyo radio plus a European show. I'd imagine tapes from the first couple of DGQ tours do exist...

----------


## AlanN

> Two cuts from that era are on DGQ 20. #


A DGQ 30 is a viable entity now....oh my!

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Yeah, it's more like latinjazzgrass to me!
> 
> ...and I'm with Grisman on the term "New Acoustic Music" - that's vacant. #Just about as bad "World Music" - ugh!


It's such a beautiful anti-label, presumably invented on the spot
to please a critic, and get rid of him.
 Saying nothing says it all.
A-wop-bop-a-loo-bop-a-lop-bap-boom.

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## humblemex

> #The DGQ were hip & happnin' with this lineup.....my personal 
> favorite, this band really found the groove. Tony was happy with the changes, Mike was jazzed learning tunes like a sponge....
> Darol was dialing in his intonation, and finding his mature voice....and also forging a musical bond/ friendship with Mike, they even
> lived just a few houses apart & were always pickin together. Todd was very comfortable holding down the bottom.....and
> Dawggy was like a man on a mission....what a cool band


Indeed, that was a great band but it was also the shortest-lived lineup of the DGQ (with one very brief exception). I don't even have a recording of them except for the two tunes on the DGQ-20 compilation. I know they only played the Music Hall a few times, the last time on March 29, 1979. Twenty-two years later they reunited for a one-shot DGQ reunion at Wintergrass.

1979 was also a volatile year, and it was only in hindsight that I realized how fragile the DGQ was in those days. In January, Tony recorded "Acoustics," his first venture into the all-instrumental realm. In contrast to Grisman's painstaking recording approach, the entire album was completed in just four days without a single overdub. Of course it helped that the musicians were Tony Rice, Richard Greene, Sam Bush, Mike Marshall, David Grisman, and Todd Phillips. I got to hang around for most of the sessions, and they were a sight to behold. Neither Sam or Richard had even seen the chord charts until the day they showed up to record, and the order of solos were determined right before they rolled tape. Richard sight-read the head to "Old Gray Coat," "Four On Six," and "Gasology." He would play it like it was written and then throw in his own thing. The level of pure musicianship in the room was overwhelming. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I realized that it was only a matter of time until Tony decided to do his own thing.

L-R: Richard Greene, Sam Bush, Todd Phillips, Tony Rice. 
Sam was wearing what he called his Peter Frampton look. I've only seen him shaven a couple of times in the nearly 30 years I've known him.

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## AlanN

Awesome.

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## Lefty&French

Passionnant! Encore...

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## humblemex

Sammy Frampton

----------


## humblemex

Tee

----------


## humblemex

Dawg

----------


## humblemex

Richard

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## SternART

I remember adjusting the mic placement for Billy Wolf, engineer for the session, while he set levels....when they were first setting up & going over the tunes. You're right they were winging it, learning the tunes on the spot.....now that is a pro musician, who can get up to speed like that....those guys had great chemistry for that session.....If I'm not mistaken, it was the very first time Richard had played with Sam......and he was totally jazzed by the mando rhythm. Indeed Jon, there was good energy in the room......reminded me of the Manzanita sessions. A LOT of great albums came out of Arch street. I have these memories of driving home from there as the sun came up, after listening to them record all night.....time was suspended when the music was cookin'.....For those not familiar with Arch Street Studios.....it was in the basement of a house in Berkeley, CA right on the North side of the UC Berkeley campus. It had a resident engineer Bob Shumaker, who engineered many sessions, David & Tony also used Billy Wolf quite a bit, he has a great ear..... I tried to be helpful & stay outta the way......and got to be close to the creative process of these incredible albums. I remember Billy Wolf tweaking the machine, an old Ampex 8 track, demagnetizing and aligning the heads, tweaking the board, experimenting with different wires, mics, etc. They really got the most out of that rig & learned how to use it, in fact David bought the board & tape machines when Arch Street closed.....and they got recycled for the birth of Acoustic Disc.

----------


## Spruce

KM84 on the Dawg, KM86 on Tony, and an SM69 stereo mic on the fiddle... 
Neumanns all...

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## hedding

man that picture of the dawg is priceless, looks like he's in a far off place...that's very happy

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## Scotti Adams

What can you guys tell me about the Mar West sessions? That was a cool record.....thanks for the pics and stories...and most of all the memories..

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## Peter Hackman

I suppose those "four days" of recording include mixing, otherwise
it's not *that* remarkable (ECM records typically take 3 days,
and in vinyl days it was not unusual for jazz musicians to record
all their stuff in one day). Not that it matters, really, the result must speak
for itself.

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## Lefty&French

> Not that it matters, really, the result must speak
> for itself.


As you said!

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## humblemex

Reconstructing history from my negative logs and proof sheets is something of an adventure that sometimes severely challenges the brain cells. My first record of the DGQ performing in 1979 doesn't appear to be a DGQ gig at all. Arthur, you're going to have to help me out on this one. It was on Feb 9 at the Music Hall. I distinctly remember the performance but my proof sheets tell a strange story. The order of performance is Dawg and Vassar as a duet, followed by a local SF band called Back in the Saddle featuring Vassar and Richard Somers (who wrote "Ricochet"), followed by the DGQ with Vassar and Todd on P-Bass, and ending with Vassar and Back in the Saddle. Because of what else is on the proof sheets, I am certain this was the order of performance. What I really remember, though, is a trio with Mike on mandocello, Darol on cello, and Vassar flatpicking the cello. Wish I could remember the name of that tune and what that gig was all about.

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## humblemex

Mike, Darol, Vassar

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## mandopete

Now all you need is a bowed-mandocello!

Great, great pix Jon!

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## tango_grass

So thats my next instrument to take up!?!
The Flatpicked Cello!!!

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## AlanN

Hey, Vassar found the WMD!!

----------


## wah

Absolutely mind-blowingly beautiful!!
 You really make me wish I had been there.

Wayne

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## humblemex

I contacted Mike to see what he remembered about this gig. Here is his reply.

"All I know is that Vassar opened a doorway into a new kind of music making
and true creative madness, and all the rest of us cautiously followed him
there. Of course it was only he who knew all the little nooks and crannies
of this place. Only he who was brave enough to go to all the dark hidden
places where all the 'real' magic lived."


RIP Vasser

----------


## tango_grass

hmm, Vassar, What a musician.

----------


## Scotti Adams

I love Vassar's playing...of particular...his back up on the first Old & In The Way Lp....a true Master if there ever was one.

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## Lefty&French

"Clamp"...
I really feel what Mike says about Vassar "music like".

----------


## SternART

Jon......was this gig some kind of a benefit? Does that ring a bell?
I remember the co-bill with Back in the Saddle, but little else.

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## humblemex

[quote=SternART,April 10 2007, 16:52]Jon......was this gig some kind of a benefit? #Does that ring a bell?


Don't know. That's what I'm trying to figure out. You were supposed to remember. 8&gt :Wink:

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## SternART

I went to someone else I know who was there......Richard Somers, known as Monty 37 here on the Cafe. We'll see if he chimes in with any additional information. He was on the bill. BTW that is a vintage photo from the era, and I doubt he is with the same management. In fact that photo was taken at the GAMH, I can tell by the background.

----------


## jasona

That a Monty he's playing?

----------


## humblemex

> That a Monty he's playing?


Let me make a wild guess and say it's Monty #37. By the way, Dawg was playing a Monty that evening.

----------


## humblemex

Here's one for Richard in case he shows up to solve our 28-year-old mystery.

----------


## arlo_k

First of all, I will say this thread has had me intrigued. What a wealth of knowledge and history on one of favorites. Thanks to all.

Pardon a fascinated lurker for interrupting, but I saw this link:

DGQ Clip

Pardon if this was posted previously, but this is way to good to not to share.

Can anyone give any details?

Thanks to all my mandobrethren!

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## humblemex

> Pardon if this was posted previously, but this is way to good to not to share.
> 
> Can anyone give any details?


Thanks for the link. Hadn't seen that one. Certainly most appropriate for this thread. It always amazes me what shows up on YouTube. Can't tell you much more about it than that it falls in a window between Sept. 1979 and Jan. 1981, when Mark O'Connor was the guitar player.

Technical question: what's the most likely way that people are digitizing video that was obviously shot on tape or film? And how expensive is the process?

----------


## Mike McCoy

That clip looks like it came from their Austin City Limits show in '80 I believe.

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## SternART

Was that the same show with Tiny, Jethro & Johnny Gimble?
As I recall....didn't Wasserman played bass with them as well?

----------


## Monte37

Weell, Holycow Art and Jon..you got the pics up here, and along with my alumni Back in the Saddle. Both pics are at the GAMH, and both a half life younger than now. Playin in the midst of these people is hard to realize after years of seeing where this all went...albeit certainly a pleasure. Thanks Art and Jon! If the GAMH walls could talk...are we all writing a book here? 
Yes, that is my one any only Monteleone, and almost new in the pictures. #37, and not too far off from its actual age as well. I appreciate who asked and includes a quote from my friend, and one of our great Mando players, Paul Glasse. I have told him I was young once, and now I can prove it. 

All of us who saw this era knows we stand as witness to a part of the history for all of us madoliners. I got lucky to be there, but as I told Art, we recognized what it was and we gravitated to it, and it became this great thing.

Jon, I need to talk to you about some of these pics, and I certainly need some of the hair back that I see in the pictures for sure. Plenty extra to go around. I will see what I can do about ID'ing the cause.

----------


## jefflester

Info about that Austin City Limits episode.

----------


## mandopete

I thought that looked like Mark O'Connor on guitar - great video!

----------


## humblemex

> All of us who saw this era knows we stand as witness to a part of the history for all of us madoliners. I got lucky to be there, but as I told Art, we recognized what it was and we gravitated to it, and it became this great thing.


Richard,

Tell us about how you came to write "Ricochet" and get it recorded by the Quintet. And what have you been up to for the past 28 years?

----------


## Monte37

How Ricochet got written is something every beginning mandolin player should hear. 
It was at the beginning of this movement when I met David at Gryphon Music. I got the nerve to ask for lessons and he said yes. After this first lesson, my "homework" was to write a tune. So I wrote this thing and called it Ricochet cuz it popped around with triplet pull offs. David liked it and added parts. Then Daryl came in and played the high part and it just jelled. It was one great moment, and I was a rank beginner. David added to it, helped me finish it and added a new chord for me, the min7. Daryl made it the 3 part tune it is, and Rudy Cipolla(don't forget Rudy) corrected my music writting by teaching me the pick up note. My music teacher let me write for the mandolin at school, and Tony's guitar part and a good bass line didn't hurt either. More than one event wrote this tune.
So the moral of this story is to recognize an opportunity and take it. Secondly, just because you are a beginner it doesn't mean you don't have something to offer to a tune. Your naivity may well be the reason for originality. 

David Grisman was/is a very generous man to me, and always honest, good and bad, to what I was doing musically. He opened his door to me and it still remains open. A good friend and deserving of this moniker DAWG. 
The last 28 years Humblemex...long story. But I still play and love the mandolin. Good or bad, I am a mandoliner, and Austin has good mandolin playin brothers and sisters. We have Collings coming on strong, and Tom Ellis's things of beauty. I am doin alright, and the mandolin is in good shape these days. We didn't have a Mandolin Cafe back then. We did have Mandolin World magazine and some of us "here" helped with that. It was our world.
Thanks for asking Jon, or Humblemex. I would like to visit with you and Art and have a sit down. I would like to see about getting some prints you have from the GAMH. That was awesome to see.

----------


## Peter Hackman

Dix Bruce wrote a tune named "Dawg's Pause" because he couldn't get your tune right!

"Pick up note"- is that the same thing as "grace note"?

----------


## SternART

Ok.... I researched the Ovation / T. Rice connection.  A rep from Ovation came to a DGQ gig in '77 and offered T. a guitar if he'd play & endorse it. His first one was a round hole, plastic back......and he didn't like it that much. So he worked with them and had Ovation build one based on variants of what they were offering on different models, but not a stock design. He got one of those ones with multiple sound holes of various sizes, and asked for it to have X bracing. He played that sparingly for awhile.....this is all before the deal with Santa Cruz guitars, which is an on going relationship.

----------


## humblemex

> Ok.... I researched the Ovation / T. Rice connection. # A rep from Ovation came to a DGQ gig in '77 and offered T. a guitar if he'd play & endorse it. His first one was a round hole, plastic back......and he didn't like it that much.


I'm also digging into what tunes he used it on. I've contacted Billy Wolf, who says Tony did use it on other tunes besides "Four On Six" but he couldn't remember which ones. He's says he'll think about it and get back to me.

----------


## Spruce

_"Tony did use it on other tunes besides "Four On Six" but he couldn't remember which ones."_

Well, one would _hope_ that one would be able to tell the difference between an Ovation and Clarence's D-28 on tape... #

----------


## mandopete

Ahh, you just put a KM84 on it and they all sound the same! #

Which recording has the Ovation?

----------


## MandoSquirrel

> Dix Bruce wrote a tune named "Dawg's Pause" because he couldn't get your tune right!
> 
> "Pick up note"- is that the same thing as "grace note"?


"Pick up note" usually means a note, or series thereof, "borrowed" from the last measure, attached before the first measure, to kick off the melody.

----------


## Monte37

Yes, the pick up note in this case of writing Ricochet is the upbeat note before the beginning down beat. If you don't know what a pick up note is, you are still most likely doing all the time.
Rudy Cippolla corrected my music and taught me this when I couldn't write the melody I was playing fit to score. This working on music would always transpire on the glass counter of his J Street candy and magazine store where he lived with his brother. If you talk about this era, you gotta talk about Rudy. David always made sure Rudy was a fixture of everything he could. A revered person who lived a life as a mandoliner from way back. We should elaborate on Rudy. I know some things, but mostly he was always there, an honored guest and friend to us all. He enjoyed us youngsters playin the mandolin. I think Bob Bruen knows a lot about Rudy. Does he ever chime in to the MC?

----------


## SternART

Bob Bruen left the Bay Area for NM a few years ago......he has the boxes of Rudy's charts, and his ol' Gibson A model.
I don't think he is on the Cafe or Comando, but he shares having experienced Rudy more than probably anyone.
It was always a sight when Rudy was in the audience at a DGQ gig with his group of friends of all ages....David would always 
ask him to stand up & take a bow, while the crowd cheered. I have memories of David, Bob & Rudy recording some of Rudy's tunes 
in my music room, as well as attending Rudy's gigs over the years. The elder statesman of Bay Area mandolin players, and thanks to 
Grisman he recorded his first album at 83! Acoustic Disc put out a tribute to Rudy's music in 1997 when I believe he was 96 years old......
and I'm pretty sure he made it to 100.

----------


## humblemex

Rudy was indeed a rare treasure who David always treated with the most respect; Rudy ate it up. When he was introduced in the audience, he would always raise his arms and soak in the applause. David produced Rudy's first album for Rounder, "The World of Rudy Cipolla" in 1983 when he was 83. In 1997, Acoustic Disc created a wonderful CD called "Rudy Cipolla: Portrait of an American Original," that featured several cuts of Rudy with the Argentine Trio in 1937, excerpts of his playing on the "Capone" soundtrack, and subsequent recordings of his own music with a wide variety of musicians including Evan Marshall, Bob Bruen, Grisman, accordionist Jim Boggio, Mike Marshall, Kaila Flexor, the Modern Mandolin Quartet, Radim Zenkl, and the DGQ. 

In a 1980 interview, Dawg talked about his relationship with him:

"I met Rudy through a mutual student, Bob Bruen, who was taking lessons from both of us. I actually took a few lessons with Rudy, and it really helped my sightreading. I'd go over to the Book Nook, and he's just have infinite patience and write things out for me to play. The chords he used in his music very much influenced me. He uses a lot of diminished chords and just has a beautiful sense of melody. He's totally dedicated to writing his own music but didn't even start writing until he was in his mid-40s. He sitting there writing music now."

Rudy didn't quite make it to 100. He died in 2000 at the age of 99, and there was a joyful celebration of his life and music with Dawg, Mike, Radim, Bob Bruen, and 14-piece ensemble performing his music at the Freight and Salvage in Berkeley. For a nice bio, check out http://www.dawgnet.com/acd_html/artists/cipolla.html or better yet, buy the CD with its typically thorough and enlightening booklet that has come to characterize Acoustic Disc releases.

Rudy, July 1988

----------


## Peter Hackman

> Originally Posted by  (Peter Hackman @ April 13 2007, 08:36)
> 
> Dix Bruce wrote a tune named "Dawg's Pause" because he couldn't get your tune right!
> 
> "Pick up note"- is that the same thing as #"grace note"?
> 
> 
> "Pick up note" usually means #a note, or series thereof, "borrowed" from the last measure, attached before the first measure, to kick off the melody.


Of course, I know what a pick-up to a solo means (usually beginning
almost 2 bars early) but I had never heard "pickup" in the context of
one single note.

----------


## Monte37

Yep Peter, an upbeat 1/8th note, or any lead in before the downbeat of a measure. Now don't go confusin me as some musical brain...although I knew written music in very slow terms before, it is only till now that I am delving into getting this better. I can tell a note, but struggle at "hearing what I see" quickly and when put on the spot..like my daughter who can play a chart at first glance. Her ability pushes me to get better to just stay at any keel with her.

RUDY, influenced us all. Our mandolin orchestra in Austin was playing "Julia" and "Parade of the Green Frogs". Rudy taught us orchestration, and I think he liked coming around and seeing Peggy, our singer. He was just a young guy in old man clothes and thick glasses. I see that more and more as I get older. I remember his voice, and how going over written music was like watching a scientist in a lab. 

I am glad in being correct in knowing that Bob knew Rudy before all of us. Bob Bruen was with Shunk Cabbage along with Tom Rigney, whom I ended up playing with in BITS. 

A radio show I played at at Stanford KZOO was followed by Shunk Cabbage, one of the better local BG bands where David and Vassar were playing with them. This was the very first time I saw and heard David and Vassar...a big moment in my mandolin beginnings. 

David, as an archivist, may have recorded more people to keep the history of the mandolin available to us all than anyone I know, and preserving the memory of Rudy was from the heart, as well as what he did for Vassar.
Weell, the storms in Austin is subsiding..think I will go outside.

----------


## MandoSquirrel

> Of course, I know what a pick-up to a solo means (usually beginning
> almost 2 bars early) but I had never heard "pickup" in the context of
> one single note.


I thought, from your posts that you should, but since you asked, just trying to help.

Both of those Rudy Cipolla recordings are great, the earlier one was re-released as "Mandolin Maestro". I hope someone will someday release more of Rudy's music.

----------


## humblemex

In the summer of 1978, Guitar Player Magazine publisher Jim Crockett called me into his office to discuss the possibility of starting a new magazine. I had been babbling so much about Grisman and people like Sam Bush, Bela Fleck, Jerry Douglas, and the whole scene that had been opened up by them, he wondered if there would be be any interest in a magazine devoted to acoustic stringed instruments. Of course, I jumped on the idea. At the time I was the staff photographer and a regular writer for Guitar Player and Keyboard magazines, so I was stoked at the possibility of writing about and photographing the best acoustic musicians in the world.

His idea was to follow the same format that had made GP and Keyboard so successful, i.e., covering the best musicians, craftsmen, and technicians in all idioms on issues about music, technique, lutherie, and equipment. Columnists were well-known artists, and all ads were music related. I always thought of them as trade magazines for musicians.

The first issue of Frets debuted at the 1979 NAMM Show in January bearing a March cover date. I was honored to be asked to write the cover story on Doc Watson and a sidebar interview with Merle Watson. Dawg was also featured in a substantial piece, written by my Guitar Player colleague, Dan Forte. The other stories in the issue included a Guild factory tour, Mike Seeger, Martin Carthy, The Art of Pearl Inlay, and coverage of a weekend seminar with Bill Keith. The workshop columnists in that first issue were Dan Crary on flatpicking, Bill Keith on music theory, Happy Traum on fingerpicking, Alan Munde on 5-String banjo, Mike Auldridge on dobro, and Mary Faith Rhodes on dulcimer. By the second issue, Dawg was writing the mandolin column which he continued to do for the entire life of the magazine. Other columns included Stan Jay on collecting, Tom Hosmer on fiddles, and George Gruhn looking back on turn of the century instruments.

Frets lasted for 10 years despite the fact that it never made money. That's why I believe you'll never see anything like it of its quality again. Guitar Player was making a lot of money in those days and Crockett was happy to subsidize the birth of this new magazine. Furthermore, he would not accept anything less than the editorial quality and integrity of GP and Keyboard, so he actually paid good writers and photographers fairly for their work. He also refused to skimp on staff. I firmly believe that if Frets had been born in the current publishing environment controlled by large corporations, it would have been gone after 6 issues max.

Why did it ultimately fail? There were lots of theories but it mostly came down to a lack of advertisers. Outside of a relatively few instrument (mostly guitar) makers, string companies, pickup manufacturers, Homespun Tapes (then strictly audio cassettes), and sound-reinforcement companies, they just weren't there. Part of the reason some didn't advertise was because they were getting so much free coverage in the magazine. I particularly remember George Gruhn howling when the magazine was killed in 1989 yet he never spent a dime on advertising because, as a columnist, he was getting all the recognition he needed. There was a certain logic to that, but magazines cannot survive without advertisers.

Part of the problem, too, was that the coverage was too wide. At least that's what some people thought, and it's probably true. Maybe that's why we now see only specialized magazines like Acoustic Guitar, Mandolin Magazine, Fiddler, and Banjo Newsletter. Even Guitar Player has largely abandoned the editorial policy and become something of an imitation of Guitar World focusing primarily on rock and roll. I just feel incredibly fortunate to have been a part of that era.

For my part, though, I absolutely loved the idea of a magazine that could have cover stories on Doc Watson, Ravi Shankar, Itzak Perlman, Bill Monroe, Carlos Montoya, Pete Seeger, Sam Bush, Julian Bream, Bonnie Raitt, Pinchas Zuckerman, Bela Fleck, Larry Coryell, Albert Lee, Ricky Skaggs, and of course, David Grisman. Ironically, Frets was finally on the verge of breaking into the black under editor Phil Hood when GPI was sold to a large corporation. All the corporation did, of course, was look at the bottom line and Frets was gone. Fortunately, I still have a complete collection, and they still hold up today. There is tons of valuable instructional material that will never be outdated. And because the writing and editing was so good, the articles are a valuable historical archive. As for me, I also have the great memories and photos of the many wonderful musicians I met, interviewed, and photographed over those ten years.

Fortunately, thanks to eBay, it's still possible to find back issues online. I just looked now and nearly 30 issues are offered for sale from $3.00 to $5.00 each. By checking the "completed items" I notice that most of them actually go unsold, so you might even be able to bargain.



Dawg, Jim Hatlo (Editor, Frets), Gator, Dexter, T. , and Pops

----------


## jmcgann

> Of course, I know what a pick-up to a solo means (usually beginning
> almost 2 bars early) but I had never heard "pickup" in the context of
> one single note.


A pickup bar is an incomplete bar before the actual form of the tune starts- it can be any length (in 4/4 time, it can add up to any number of beats less than 4 complete; so a pickup bar can LOOK like a bar of 7/8, 3/4, 5/8, 2/4, 3/8, 1/4 or 1/8). It is 'understood' that it is outside of the form of the actual piece, and usually is followed by either a double bar line or a repeat sign (facing east!)

----------


## AlanN

I know that Grisman had a workshop column in FRETS, excellent transcriptions and tunes, such as Jethro tunes, fiddle tunes, even a two-issue chef d'oeuvre of Joy Spring. Is there any way a list could be made of all the columns he did? I have most, but not all of his works, and would love to get my mitts on those I lack.

----------


## MandoSquirrel

Just yesterday I found a few more of my "Frets", including one of the "Joy Spring" issues. I've really enjoyed having Jon sharing his pics & stories, as well as Arthur & everyone; I listened & faithfully read MWN & Frets' but the inside stories bring new life to my formative years as a Mando Maniac.

----------


## mandopete

> A pickup bar is an incomplete bar before the actual form of the tune starts...


Come on John, we all know what a pickup bar is - I think there's a ton of 'em down in the Combat Zone and they always start with the words, "Come here often ?"

----------


## humblemex

The spring and summer of '79 marked a slow down of the DGQ.. The last Music Hall gig of the band with Todd and Tony was at the end of March but according to Mike there was a short tour that followed. There were signs of fracture, and the process was accelerated by a couple of events. Darol and Barbara Higbie were married in late spring and decided to spend a few months studying music in Africa. With Darol gone, David hired a new violinist for a nationwide tour--Stephane Grappelli.

My proof sheets show an Ook 'n' M gig with Mike, Darol, Tony, and Todd on 6/15 but nothing with the DGQ again until August 31 at a Mandolin World News benefit at the Music Hall. The acts were Dix Bruce's band Back Up and Push, the Berkeley Mandolin Ensemble with Rudy Cipolla, Frank Wakefield, and the David Grisman *Quartet* with Mike, Mark O'Connor on guitar and Rob Wasserman on bass. Todd also sat in for a few tunes on mandolin with the Quartet.

As I understand it, Todd was the first to leave and Tony quit abruptly when David told him about the tour with Stephane. In a 1980 FRETS interview Tony answered Mark Hunter's question about why he left the band this way: "It never really came down to my leaving. David had the opportunity to play with Stephane Grappelli, and I refused the gig. Grappelli's music is his, David's is David's. Tunes like "Dawg's Rag,"--to me that's Dawg music. If it didn't have that quality, it wasn't Dawg music, and I wasn't interested in playing it."

That might have been the triggering factor but the truth is that Tony was on his way out by this time anyway. Tony is a obviously a great musician but very rigid in many ways, which sometimes caused a conflict. As Mike once told me, he's a hammer with amazing tone but when he plays he is so concerned with timing and tone that he will not sacrifice either for imagination and adventure. Darol and Mike are the exact opposites of that approach. Besides, Tony had clearly begun to form his own idea of what Dawg music, or whatever you want to call it, should be and was ready to start his own band.

The summer music program at the Music Hall wasn't a complete loss, though. Among those who played there were Norman and Nancy Blake and the last performance I saw from the "almost original" Newgrass Revival with Sam, John Cowan, Curtis Burch, and Courtney Johnson.

----------


## humblemex

Rudy, Rob, Dawg
Mandolin World News Benefit

----------


## Spruce

Those old GAMH pics really hammered home some memories from those 70's DGQ gigs...

I saw the Stones early on, Miles at Monterrey, and the Who on one particularly memorable evening in '67, but the DGQ GAMH halls gigs (especially the ones with Todd on mando) were some of the most _potent_ live performances I've ever heard in any genre.

And I don't think I've heard anything that has knocked me out quite as much since...

----------


## Lefty&French

> (...) Besides, Tony had clearly begun to form his own idea of idea of what Dawg music, or whatever you want to call it, should be and was ready to start his own band.


(Three days whithout new posts... # )

I Thought he called his music "Spacegrass"?

----------


## Scotti Adams

..yep.."Spacegrass" it was...

----------


## SternART

Yeaaaahhhhhh!

----------


## mandopete

*Spacegrass* - Not 'jazzy" enough for jazz and not "grassy" enough for bluegrass.

Am I the only one who thinks that the time would be ripe for Tony to take another shot at spacegrass?

----------


## tango_grass

> *Spacegrass* - Not 'jazzy" enough for jazz and not "grassy" enough for bluegrass.
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks that the time would be ripe for Tony to take another shot at spacegrass?


No, you are not the only one, I second that motion!!!

----------


## SternART

I think Ook' n' M should make a record!!!  Tony, Todd, Mike & Darol. Now, that would be HOT!

Those Mandolin World News benefits were fun......was there just one, or two of those? Wasn't there one with
Jethro? He played without a strap, which I recall vividly for some reason. I remember a huge benefit for Sam Bush 
when he was ill......I wonder if I'm confusing that as a MWN benefit. 

And then awhile later when Tony got flooded out, there was a benefit for him too. I bought like
20 tickets for that one & gave them away to friends. That was when he had to leave everything behind
including his old guitar, that was later found floating within the house.

----------


## humblemex

> I think Ook' n' M should make a record!!! # Tony, Todd, Mike & Darol. #Now, that would be HOT!
> 
> Those Mandolin World News benefits were fun......was there just one, or two of those? #Wasn't there one with
> Jethro? He played without a strap, which I recall vividly for some reason. I remember a huge benefit for Sam Bush 
> when he was ill......I wonder if I'm confusing that as a MWN benefit. #
> 
> And then awhile later when Tony got flooded out, there was a benefit for him too.


Yes, there were two MWN benefits, a separate benefit for Sam, and one for Tony. I'll get to all of them as I follow the rough chronological order I've established.

Arthur, didn't you say there were some live recordings of 'ook 'n 'um? Those shows were likely Tony's most adventursome outings ever.

----------


## Jim Hilburn

I lived on the Colorado front range throughout these times, but they always showed up here on their tours.
In '74-5 the Great American Music Band played in Denver although I can't quite remember the venue. I remember Taj and David and I think David Nicturn unless I'm confusing him with a Maria Muldaur show but I think that was Amos Garrett.
Then in '78 the original line-up played Tulagi's on the hill in Boulder. I remember Nugget showing up with cases in hand and got in ahead of the doors opening.
 Then the grouping with Mark and Stephan played the Rainbow in Denver in '79.

----------


## SternART

I don't have any Ook' n' M recordings for back in the day......but I'm pretty sure they played a more recent gig, maybe 7 years ago
somewhere in the SouthEast. Maybe someone taped that one......I think it might have been an experimental gig, to see if they should make a record.

I think T. got pretty out there soloing with the DGQ.....I remember one time asking him if he liked his solo he had just played on 16-16, as they came off stage.....his reply was something like.....yeah, I got pretty out there, wish I knew what I played I might try it again. From my perspective, I certainly never thought he was playing it safe or lacking "in the moment" creativity.

----------


## Spruce

_"In '74-5 the Great American Music Band played in Denver although I can't quite remember the venue"_

Ebbetts Field 05/07/74....

Here ya go....

----------


## humblemex

> I think T. got pretty out there soloing with the DGQ.....I remember one time asking him if he liked his solo he had just played on 16-16, as they came off stage.....his reply was something like.....yeah, I got pretty out there, wish I knew what I played I might try it again. From my perspective, I certainly never thought he was playing it safe or lacking "in the moment" creativity.


I didn't either really but both Mike and David mentioned Tony's generally conservative approach to me. Guess the standards and perspective are different when you're playing in the big leagues.

----------


## Jim Hilburn

For some reason I thought it was somewhere other than Ebbett's but obviously not. 
I saw Bromberg there and Emmylou with the original Hot Band another time. The place was tiny and when we saw Doc and Merle we were about 2 feet away from them.

----------


## jefflester

> I don't have any Ook' n' M recordings for back in the day......but I'm pretty sure they played a more recent gig, maybe 7 years ago
> somewhere in the SouthEast. #Maybe someone taped that one......I think it might have been an experimental gig, to see if they should make a record.


They played a couple shows in Nov '99 at the Acoustic Stage in Hickory NC. And there was a SBD of the 11-6-99 show on Bluegrassbox (RIP).

There are torrents of aud recordings of both shows, but they are old torrents (over a year old) and currently have no seeders (click "download" link):
http://db.etree.org/bs_d.php?year=1999&artist_key=2690

----------


## Peter Hackman

> *Spacegrass* - Not 'jazzy" enough for jazz and not "grassy" enough for bluegrass.
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks that the time would be ripe for Tony to take another shot at spacegrass?


As long as he calls it something else.

----------


## humblemex

Ook 'N' M
June 15, 1979
Other Cafe, San Francisco

----------


## SternART

Just back from Santa Fe.....was expecting this thread would have continued.
How 'bout that hair on young Gator......or that hair on Todd? I think that
might be me in the hat.

----------


## MandoSquirrel

Oh for '70's hair again!

----------


## jefflester

> Originally Posted by  (SternART @ April 21 2007, 09:35)
> 
> I don't have any Ook' n' M recordings for back in the day......but I'm pretty sure they played a more recent gig, maybe 7 years ago
> somewhere in the SouthEast. #Maybe someone taped that one......I think it might have been an experimental gig, to see if they should make a record.
> 
> 
> They played a couple shows in Nov '99 at the Acoustic Stage in Hickory NC. And there was a SBD of the 11-6-99 show on Bluegrassbox (RIP).
> 
> There are torrents of aud recordings of both shows, but they are old torrents (over a year old) and currently have no seeders (click "download" link):
> http://db.etree.org/bs_d.php?year=1999&artist_key=2690


Here's a pic from the 11-5-99 show.
From this site

----------


## Peter Hackman

> As I understand it, Todd was the first to leave and Tony quit abruptly when David told him about the tour with Stephane. In a 1980 FRETS interview Tony answered Mark Hunter's question about why he left the band this way: "It never really came down to my leaving. David had the opportunity to play with Stephane Grappelli, and I refused the gig. Grappelli's music is his, David's is David's. Tunes like "Dawg's Rag,"--to me that's Dawg music. If it didn't have that quality, it wasn't Dawg music, and I wasn't interested in playing it."
> 
> That might have been the triggering factor but the truth is that Tony was on his way out by this time anyway. Tony is a obviously a great musician but very rigid in many ways, which sometimes caused a conflict. As Mike once told me, he's a hammer with amazing tone but when he plays he is so concerned with timing and tone that he will not sacrifice either for imagination and adventure. Darol and Mike are the exact opposites of that approach. Besides, Tony had clearly begun to form his own idea of what Dawg music, or whatever you want to call it, should be and was ready to start his own band.


"Rigid" is a very strong word for an attitude that I find very natural.
If you have a thing of your own going, why not stay with it 
and develop it further? Frankly, Grisman's work with Grapelli
isn't nearly as convincing as, e.g., his work with Asmussen
(who is/was - he's 91 - just as much a showman and entertainer
as a jazz musician) and his later latin-oriented thing.

----------


## mandopete

I miss this thread.

----------


## SternART

Hang on for the next chapter......Jon is just catching his breath.

----------


## T W Perez

Yes I am loving this thread.Even though not there personally many of us can look back at our formative years through this thread.From the first time Tony dropped my jaw as a youngster in 74, then getting turned on to the Dawg music as a result.The first band I played in had a set list like EMD,dawgs rag,manzanita etc.at festivals we were known as "those hippies"and really paid some dues getting accepted.Everything was learned off of vinyl,hours and hours,yes these guys are my heros still,thanks for the thread and look forward to more.

----------


## Romkey

The new Fretboard Journal features an article on the David Grisman Quintet.

----------


## humblemex

The Grappelli/Grisman tour opened on Wednesday, Sept. 5, 1979 with a three-night run at the Great American Music Hall. Stephane arrived the weekend before to play a Sunday gig at the Paul Masson Winery in Saratoga with pianist George Shearing and bassist Brian Torff. Rehearsals began the following day.

As you might imagine, the Music Hall was completely sold out for all three dates. The quartet with Dawg, Mark, Mike, and Rob Wasserman essentially functioned as Stephane's band playing his repertoire although they did do a couple of David's tunes. I don't have a tape of those gigs so I couldn't tell you which ones. I do remember, however, that the band sounded remarkably cohesive despite the fact that Mark, who had just turned 18, arrived only five days before the gig from a two-week tour of Japan with Dan Crary and learned the changes for two dozen jazz standards in that time. Stephane loved his playing. At one point in the show, Mike took over on guitar and Mark and Stephane burned the house down with a scorching version of "Tiger Rag."

I met Mark in May, 1978, when he was recording _Markology_, his first solo guitar album. Though he was only 16 at the time, the album was the fifth produced under his name and featured performances with Tony, Dan Crary, and Dawg. By the time he was 14, he had won four National Junior Fiddle Championships, a Grand Masters Fiddle Championship, and the Winfield National Guitar Flatpicking Championship. When he repeated his Winfield win in 1977, the rules were changed to keep two-time winners from competing again for five years. In 1980, he became the first repeat winner in the history of the Grand Masters Fiddling Championship. That same year, following a three-year winning streak in the Open division of the Weiser National Old-Time Fiddle Championship, the rules were again changed because of Mark to force winners to sit out a year following their win. 

To top it off, in 1982 he entered Buck White's World Championship Mandolin Contest in Kerrville, Texas. He didn't even own a mandolin at the time he signed up, and by his own admission he had never practiced one except for "about a month to prepare for the contest." On the way to Texas, he made a side trip to Chicago and took a lesson from Jethro to expand his repertoire. Of course he won, playing Dave Appolon's "Russian Rag," Dawg's "Cedar Hill," Darol's "Ride the Wild Turkey" and a jazz medley of "It's a Rainy Day," "After You've Gone," and "All the Things You Are." His prize was a Luke Thompson mandolin.

But Mark was always more than just a contest player. In a 1981 interview, Dawg called him the most imaginative, versatile, and adventurous guitar player he'd ever worked with. "He doesn't have any stylistic boundaries, and you can't really say he's a direct descendent of anybody. In tunes where the length of the solo is left up to the guitar player, Tony would make it as short as possible. Mark is the other way. I finally had to tell him he was playing too long sometimes. I tried to explain it by telling him to pretend he was climbing a mountain, and when he gets to the top of the mountain, that's it. He said, 'But then I see another mountain to climb.' I couldn't argue with him. He's got his own thing, and that's the most you can say about any musician." 

At the end of the tour, Grisman asked him to be the Quintet's guitarist, and a new era began. Still, Mark was clearly no match for Tony Rice's powerful rhythm (who is?), and it would take some time before a balance was re-established.

----------


## humblemex

On Friday, Sept. 7, the band gathered at KQED-TV studios, the San Francisco PBS station, to tape an appearance on "Over Easy," a local show hosted by Hugh Downs.

----------


## Treblemaker

WOW - what a thread. Not sure how I missed this wonderful noise ongoing for the past 3 months! Jon and Arthur have just cause me to put down my mandolin for a solid hour to read the 14 pages of of captivating first hand history!

For me the Dawg, his music, the work of his followers, the whole kit and caboodle has the immediacy of bluegrass, the never gets old quality of the Beatles catalog and the intriguing rococo delicacy of chamber music. There is always something new to discover. And while my wife may not share my obsession and while decrying each new purchase and download, this is a difficult habit to kick...

At the same time I remain fairly daunted by the depth and breadth of the Dawg's ever-expanding repertoire, the technical virtuosity the complexity and the futility that comes with attempting to internalize 1/100th of it. 

Long live the Dawg and his ilk... and thanks to Acousticdisc.com for the great music.

Digging this heavily...

Treblemaker
www.WorldWideTed.com
www.BrewglassBoys.com
-------------------------------------------------------

BTW:
This gem of a show can be found via bittorrent... 
I'm wondering if any Cafe Patrons were there?


MARIN COUNTY BLUEGRASS FESTIVAL
Golden State College
San Rafael, CA
April 27 & 28, 1974

Homestead Act:
04 - I've Been Everywhere
05 - Take Five (Brubeck)
06 - Way Down In Georgia?
07 - Chime Bells
08 - Diggy Liggy Lo
09 - The Foggy Mountain Breakdown

Emmylou Harris:
10 - Jambalaya
11 - Instrumental
Tut Taylor and Norman Blake:
12 - Southern Railroad Blues

Doc & Merle Watson:
13 - Footprints Through The Snow
14 - Man Walking On The Water &gt;
    Keep on the Sunny Side
15 - Wabash Cannonball

Unknown act:
16 - Mule's Done Gone Away
17 - Are You Missing Me

Doc & Merle Watson:
18 - Poor Boy Blues
19 - Wabash Cannonball
20 - Salt Creek
21 - Tennessee Stud

Great American String Band:
22 - My Plastic Banana
23 - Dawg's Rag (with Richard Green)
24 - I'll Be The Gambler If You'll Deal The Cards

Disc Two  73:23
Great American String Band:
01 - Sweet Georgia Brown

The Hired Hands:
02 - Bear Tracks
03 - Standin' On The Mountain
04 - Pick Away
05 - Cotton Mill Man //
06 - The River Of Jordan

Great American String Band: 4/27/74
(Jerry Garcia, David Grisman, Richard Green, Taj Mahal, David Nichtern)
07 - Mabeline
08 - Johnny B. Goode

Jim & Jesse McReynolds and The Virginia Boys:
09 - Dueling Banjos
Tut Taylor and Norman Blake:
10 - Instrumental
11 - Instrumental

Mac Wiseman:
12 - The Wreck Of The Old 97
13 - Catfish John
14 - Love Letters In The Sand
15 - Shackles And Chains
16 - Prisoner Song
17 - Jimmy Brown
18 - I Wonder How The Old Folks Are At Home
19 - Man Walking On The Water
20 - Keep On The Sunny Side Of Life

Frank Wakefield with Jerry Garcia:
21 - Jesus Loves His Mandolin Player #1
22 - Heartbreak Hotel
23 - Orange Blossom Special

Doc & Merle Watson:
24 - Doc Bog's Country Blues
25 - Movin' On
26 - Wabash Cannonball
27 - Tennessee Stud

Disc Three  79:50

Ramblin' Jack Elliot:
01 - Talking Fishing Blues
02 - Don't Think Twice, It's Alright
03 - Down The Line
04 - Pretty Boy Floyd

Doug Dillard & Frank Wakefield:
05 - Dixie Breakdown

Nitty Gritty Dirt Band with Garcia & Vassar Clements,
Doc Watson, Dave Nelson, John Hartford & Jerry Mills:

06 - Tulane And Johnny
07 - Cosmic Cowboy
08 - Jambalaya
09 - Sally Goodin
10 - Battle Of New Orleans
11 - Teardrops In My Eyes
12 - Bonie Maronie
13 - Randy Lynn Rag
14 - Flint Hill Special
15 - Mr. Bojangles
16 - Honky Tonkin'
17 - Diggy Liggy Lo
18 - Will The Circle Be Unbroken
19 - Way Downtown Fooling Around
20 - Down Yonder

Disc Four  19:31

Old And In The Way: 4/28/74
01 - High Lonesome Sound (brief tape munch)
02 - Pig In A Pen
03 - Panama Red
04 - Wild Horses
05 - The Hobo Song

Cool Stuff!!!

----------


## Jan Ellefsen

Hi Treblemaker 
Where can one find that bittorrent?

----------


## Spruce

_"I'm wondering if any Cafe Patrons were there?"_

I missed that one.... 

As I remember, no one got paid....

----------


## mandopete

Ah the thread is back to life, good bump!

----------


## SternART

I missed that one too......at that point I was just beginning my BG journey, and somehow the word that Jerry was gonna be playing didn't filter down to me. 
I was one of the original Dead tape fanatics.....if I caught wind of a Garcia appearance, I would have made the scene.

Have I told the story about Stephanne Grappelli pinching my cheek backstage.....and calling me a naughty boy? I'll have to figure out how to word it
to pass the censorship aspects of the Cafe. (and hey....keep you're minds out of the gutter, it's not what you're thinking)

----------


## mandolooter

[QUOTE]. (and hey....keep you're minds out of the gutter, it's not what you're thinking) 

who?.....us!

----------


## humblemex

> This gem of a show can be found via bittorrent... 
> I'm wondering if any Cafe Patrons were there?


Yep, I was there for most of it. It was my first bluegrass festival, and what a beauty. It was actually called the Golden Gate Bluegrass Festival and was held at the Marin Civic Center. And it actually ran for three days, Apr 26-28. Too bad it was a financial bust because it was 26 years before another one of that magnitude happened in the Bay Area. I didn't realize that no one got paid though. It was put together by the couple who ran Paul's Saloon, the legendary North Beach bluegrass bar in the '60s and '70s. As I understood it, they mortgaged their house to finance the festival and almost lost it as a result of the financial failure.

They had a great vision, though. I'm sure it was the first time that many of the artists had ever played the Bay Area. It was certainly the first time I'd ever seen Ralph Stanley, Jimmy Martin, Jim and Jesse, Mac Wiseman, Norman Blake, Tut Taylor and Vassar Clements. The whole festival was dedicated to Vassar, and he sat in with many of the acts. As I recall, I just showed up and managed to talk my way backstage with my camera and Guitar Player credentials. That was also the first time I saw the Great American String Band though I missed the Old and in the Way show. Not sure why.

I remember how surprised I was to see Ralph Stanley sitting at a table selling his records and trinkets. It was the first time I'd seen anything like that. I've still got the Curly Ray Cline keychain I bought that day. I also recall that was Roy Lee Centers' last gig. The day he got home from the festival he was brutally murdered by a local deputy sheriff.


Backstage Banjo Jam-John McEuen, Steve Martin, Jerry Garcia

----------


## Treblemaker

Marin County BG Fest - 1974.
Here's the link - but you need to be a member and I can't help ya there:

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-d...d=146645&hit=1

-Treblemaker

----------


## SternART

Ok Grappelli story.......remember this was in the old days before there was a ban on smoking in public buildings.
I was backstage......between sets, I was imbibing, smoking, whatever you might want to call it.....standing with
a few musicians & friends....and Stephane comes up, pinches my cheek and calls me a "naughty boy" in his very French 
accent. Now at first I was in the gutter too......thinking he was hitting on me.....but it soon became apparent that he
too was interested in joining in......should have been more obvious I'm not THAT cute.....

----------


## SternART

That photo with Grappelli reminded me of another story.....that is the band that played on the Tonight Show w/ Johnny Carson.
My father is long gone......but back then he knew I was friends with Grisman, never made much mention of it...TILL he played
the Tonight Show. My old man was deep into acts that would like play in Vegas, or be on with Carson. All of a sudden my Dad
wants to meet Grisman.....so next time he visited the Bay Area, he asked me again. I called up David & sheepished asked him
to do me a favor.....could I bring my parents over? They wanted to meet him. Dawg was cool.....said bring 'em over. So after
introductions we're sitting in Grisman's living room & my Dad says.....well aren't you going to play something for us?......I
was thinking geeze how rude.....David took it all in stride, he got out TWO mandolins & we played a coupla duets for my parents.
I was really only a beginner then, but knew my 10 tunes in 9 keys. We played a harmony on Japan (opus 23 in 10 Tunes) and
then Opus 38. I remember playing the chords several times thru, as David soloed away. My parents applauded, and we went off on
our merry way......I'll always remember how generous David was to allow that to happen.....hows that for a good friend!!!

----------


## mdlorenz

This thread deserves a bump.

----------


## Buddah

This thread does indeed deserve a bump...amazing stuff!! Anybody out there have any "insider" info/stories on the more recent incarnations of the DGQ? How did Dawg come to add Matt Eakle(sp?)? George Marsh? Frank Vignola?

----------


## kmiller1610

Great stuff. I have been gradually working my way backward to see what I missed and this thread just gave me several dozen new doors to open! Thanks!

----------


## Kevin Briggs

> couldn't figure out who was the guy
> stealing the show from Jerry,....


I don't mean to take away from the thread ... but that was Vassar stealing the show in OAITW.

----------


## gonzograss

Good gracious!!! Where have I been? Will have to go back to page 3 and continue this wonderful journey. Just a quick check-in to say THANK YOU. We've needed this for a long time. I've followed DAWG from afar (the Ozarks and West Virginia) through the 70's and all the way to the present.
From the time I traded for my first decent instrument (a 20's F-4) @ Winfield the year Orrin Star won guitar (76 or 77?)I've been captivated, mesmerized, permanently seduced by the music. Some years it was kind of lonely trying to play along w/ the albums (forget finding any people to play it with!) but by 1982-83 I finally got to see/hear my heroes in person @ the Ringling Museum in Sarasota Florida. That was the Gator, Robbie Wasserman, Darol Anger iteration. I still feel the goosebumps. What a magnificent evening in that arabesque setting under the stars and palm fronds. I even have a crude tape recording of it, which is somewhat spoiled by a drunken woman's repeated and strident shouting. But the music was glorious and every time I've seen David over the years I've spent weeks going back over the great tunes that never grow stale. A couple of years ago when I saw him at the Birchmere in Alexandria he was no less inspired and inspiring than in the late 70's. Spent a good 45 minutes chatting w/ Dawg and Matt Eakle - still as accessible as ever. This was before Joe Craven left. Haven't yet caught Vignola in the band but have some of his other stuff and can't wait to hear what his presence is contributing to the evolution of DAWG and his music.
I may have a few photos - have to dig them up. But will be hungrily taking in all this wonderful history. I add my encouragement to that of others who have expressed excitement at the idea of a Book. Wouldn't it be a powerful addition to the history of American music to compile a heavily illustrated coffee table-type volume, along the lines of Michael Dregni's "Django - an Illustrated History of Gypsy Jazz"?
Again, bless you for starting this thread. I wasn't privileged to have lived out there to be close to all this as it began, but I was digging it from where I was. 
As a lifelong musician I can't think of another figure who has consistently given me that feeling that one gets from the very best, most passionate and creative music.
Please continue.

 Joe Hannabach (Gonzograss)

----------


## grassrootphilosopher

> Yes, there were two MWN benefits, a separate benefit for Sam, and one for Tony. I'll get to all of them as I follow the rough chronological order I've established.
> 
> Arthur, didn't you say there were some live recordings of 'ook 'n 'um? Those shows were likely Tony's most adventursome outings ever.


Mr. Sievert,

I think this thread deserves to go on, and with a vengance. 

Had my parents taken notice of bluegrass, dawg music and such, I might have seen Clarence White on his European tour with the White Brothers as a second grader, or I might have visited the Grisman appearance at Montreux, France, or... 

The first bluegrass festival I was at was at Lake Havasu Az. in the year of 1990. I met Bob Applebaum and Pat Cloud though.

Well it wasn´t until I about graduated from what we call Gymnasium (advanced secondary education preparing for university) that i found "acousticity" at my cousin´s house (who by the way along with my uncle, his father, is responsible for giving me the first clue what this music is about by giving me Doc & Merle Watson "Balads From The Deep Gap" as a birthday present). My cousin had (still has) a ton of vinyl records that would make a freak freak out. I listened to some Monk (the album with Monk in a Tom Mix hat and gun belt), Bessie Smith, Clint Howard and Fred Price ("The Ballad Of Finlay Preston") and the Dawg hung in there. 

Now, Mr. Sievert, I´d love to hear about those benefit shows. 

Mr. Stern, I´d very much appreciate your input too. 

There must be a bunch of people out there, that have something to tell. So go ahead y´all.

----------


## theBlood

I saw Grisman in 1967 in SF playing with a group called the Smoky Grass Boys that included a pregnant bass player, who, if memory serves was his girlfriend. My buddies and I taped the show with our sony and traded him later for a tape of Monroe at Bean Blossom. Nobody was there that day, so it was interesting to see him progress.

----------


## SternART

Maybe we can get this bus on the road again.

----------


## Monte37

I do have to chime in on this...Jon, Art, and myself were standing in the same spots, same time. I think what strikes me the most about this time was how we had to gather to see these events. We met there. We didn't group email. We knew we would see each other at each event. People were hanging off the balcony as we gathered at the Great American Music Hall, Which,I have to take a chance and say that it was the major hub at the time for this music. A great place where the owners were committed to excellence in music. David and cast was never better than at this place...okay, my opinion. But some nights the roof lifted...maybe see you Art and Jon this June!

----------


## SternART

RT
If you're talking Symposium.......I'll be there!
Arthur

----------


## jc2

In 1979 or 1980, the group appeared on the Today Show with Stephane Grappelli. I had never seen them before, dug out my boom box and got a ###### cassette recording of them burning up "Sweet Georgia Brown" with Stephane at the end shouting "Vive L'America!" I went right out and bought the album.

----------


## Spruce

_"David and cast was never better than at this place...okay, my opinion."_

Mine too...

The DGQ at the GAMH in the early days with Todd on second mando--with a flock of shockmounted Neumanns spread across the stage in front of them--were some of the finest musical events I've ever seen, in _any_ genre...

And the recordings that came off of those Neumanns--combined with the distinctive acoustics of the GAMH--are some of my favorite recordings ever made....

----------


## mandopete

I'm whiling away the time listening to *The Rounder Album* waiting for this thread to fire up again!

Hey, speaking of The Rounder Album, did anyone else notice Alison Krauss' tribute to Dawg and Tony in her version of *Sawing On The Strings* (one of my all time fav's) on A Hundred Miles Or More? #Nice double mando!

----------


## SternART

I recall a DGQ gig.......back before anybody had heard of her.... at the GAMH where Alison sat in with them on fiddle.
What I can't recall is if she was part of the opening act? She tore it up on the fiddle, I remember being impressed,
and also recall her asking who I was backstage. My first exposure to Alison.....this was pre-Union Station.

----------


## mdlorenz

Must've looked at this thread about 30 times... never gets old.

----------


## SternART

It was a very cool time to live in the SF BAy Area and be into new acoustic music!
Grisman's music has been like the sountrack of my life.

----------


## Eliot Greenspan

Wow, just discovered this thread. Fabulous and fascinating. Haven't read through it all yet, as some work must be done, but thought I'd quickly add how it affected this east coast teenager.

1977, already a 16-year old Deadhead and taking guitar lessons in burbs of NYC. Guitar teacher turns me on to DGQ and that first album. Nuff' said. Went and saw that line-up at Bottom Line, I think. '78 or '79.

Buy mandolin. Kentucky KM 650. That meatgrinder's hanging on the wall these days.

1979 in college in Boston. Do one battle of the band gigs, w/ hastily formed Red Clay Black Moutain Rambling Boys, or some such name we came up w/. Featuring Hahn Rowe, who went on to work w/ Moby and David Byrne amongst others on fiddle. Some guy in audience says, you sound like Grisman (a ridiculous statement, aided I'm sure by the kegs...). 1980 or 81 buy front row tix for the Grisman/Grappelli show at Berkelee College. Buying tix, the teller says, you might also like to see this band w/ tix also just going on sale that day, and so get second row for Oregon. A band I had never heard of. Also, life changing musical exp. (and suprising to see Towner and McCandless turn up so much in this thread, 1982, actually went and studied guitar w/ Ralph at Naropa. Fabulous, band, fabulous guys). 

but back to DGQ, actually, that's pretty much all I got, except for a couple decades of listening to, seeing shows and buying discs. Definitely a musical quantum shift kinda band, that definitely shifted me.

thanks for this thread, the photos, and info. Great stuff.

----------


## lenf12

Great thread, you guys. I got hooked on the sound or OAITW in '74 or so and DGQ in '76 but living on the East Coast, didn't get a chance to hear them live until the tour with Stephane Grapelli in '80 or '81. Very interesting reading!! Does David ever post to this message board?

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

----------


## mandocaster

I miss living in the SF bay area.  The music scene was so amazing in the 80's when I was there.  I don't miss the cost of living.  

I wish there was radio airplay for new acoustic music.  Thiele has gotten a little.  I think a fair number of people would appreciate it, if they ever heard it.

If anyone knows if there is anything on XM, let me know.

----------


## fishdawg40

I have a few questions, maybe Arthur knows.  First, what happened with Enrique leaving the band?  Second, when is Dawg's acoustic oasis download site gonna be up?  I heard him do an interview at the end of last year and he said it would be ready in a couple of months.  Just curious.

----------


## MONami

sorry no text

----------


## mandopete

I'm sorry too!  Whenever I see this thread pop up again I'm always hoping for some new photo's or tidbit.

 :Crying:

----------


## mandolirius

<Too bad the movie wasn't a BIG hit, so the music would have been heard by more people. There were plans for a soundtrack album, that were scrapped when the movie flopped. I think it was even recorded but never released. A medley of tunes from the movie became a part of the set list in this era. But one thing leads to another and the Grappelli connection was made and Stephanne then recorded a few tunes on the DGQ's next album, Hot Dawg.>

Just looking through this thread and saw this. The soundtrack WAS recorded. Back in the early 80's I knew someone who knew someone who apparently worked at the studio where it was recorded. He had a copy and I made a cassette tape from it. It is really wonderful music. I really have to get that dubbed onto a CD.

----------


## SternART

Fishdawg.......Enrique left to pursue his other interests, and who could complain about his replacement?......Frank Vignola has added a new energy to the band that reminds me of the 70's band.  Frank can really groove! If you get a chance to see the DGQ by all means go, it is another great era for live Dawg music! I've only seen them twice with Frank, but the last one, a friend I was with thought it was the best concert she had EVER been to. The Acoustic Oasis is coming along......I'm sure the debut will be announced on the Acoustic Disc site as well as here on the Cafe.  Should be FABULOUS!!!

----------


## John Kasley

> I saw Grisman in 1967 in SF playing with a group called the Smoky Grass Boys that included a pregnant bass player, who, if memory serves was his girlfriend. My buddies and I taped the show with our sony and traded him later for a tape of Monroe at Bean Blossom. Nobody was there that day, so it was interesting to see him progress.


There's a poster on Rick Shubb's site(of Shubb Capo fame)  for the Smokey Grass Boys of that era. Rick played banjo in that group.
http://www.shubb.com/cafe/index.html

----------


## mandopete

Yes, The DGQ with Frank Vignola was in fine form when I saw them several months ago here in Seattle and again at the River City Bluegrass festival.  One of the best incarnations of this band to be sure.

Bit off topic, but I'll post it anyways.  What's become of the Frank Vignola group - is Josh Pinkham playing with him anymore?  I have tried unsucessully to get a copy of his recording "Kong Man" - anyone know where it can be found?

Humblemex where are you man?

----------


## mandopete

Went back an re-read this thread and how I need a Dawg fix.

Here's some video 

Who is that that walks in and lays on the couch behind Grisman at the beginning?

----------


## SternART

Cool poster!  I recall back in the days when I was archivist for David, that there was at least one reel to reel tape of a Smokey Grass Boys gig.  But it might not have been that lineup, as I recall it having Bill Keith on banjo. Such a cool name they might have used it a few times for short lived pickup band gigs.  :Wink:

----------


## SternART

Jon (humblemex) is living south of the border enjoying retirement.......

----------


## fishdawg40

> Fishdawg.......Enrique left to pursue his other interests, and who could complain about his replacement?......Frank Vignola has added a new energy to the band that reminds me of the 70's band.  Frank can really groove! If you get a chance to see the DGQ by all means go, it is another great era for live Dawg music! I've only seen them twice with Frank, but the last one, a friend I was with thought it was the best concert she had EVER been to. The Acoustic Oasis is coming along......I'm sure the debut will be announced on the Acoustic Disc site as well as here on the Cafe.  Should be FABULOUS!!!



The replacement is great, I couldn't agree more.  I just liked Enrique's Latin roots.  He was a super nice guy too.  I did see the recent incarnation at Suwannee Springfest.  It was unbelievable.  Dawg was great as usual.  I also saw him at a workshop with Josh Pinkham.  These guys were blazing.....

I can't wait for Acoustic Oasis.  There should be some real gems there.  I'm assuming Acoustic Disc has there $10 a single CD sale because of the switch to digital.  I'm saving up my money for the Oasis.  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Fretbear

I don't know where i got this, but I thought it might interest.....

----------


## RSomers

That pic looks like back to the jug band days. I have a CD David gave me of David on Hootenanny with the even dozen jug band...way before I touched a mandolin or guitar. But, it was what made me want to.
I just wanted to add 2 cents in saying the Enrique was a class act guy. Suberb Latin style player and gentleman always. I did see he released his own CD and would only assume he is taking care of his own career. I haven't heard Abe yet, but by Art's reflections and the video it looks like another great fit. 
And yes, Art and John are our historians of this string. They documented it all, and fortunately I am in a little of it. We go back a bit.

How many great players have we gotten to learn and know of as a result of working their way through Dawg? There is a string right there.

----------


## mandopete

> Jon (humblemex) is living south of the border enjoying retirement.......


I think the Internet reaches down to Mexico too!

 :Smile:

----------


## mandopete

> How many great players have we gotten to learn and know of as a result of working their way through Dawg? There is a string right there.


Ain't that the truth!  I think my interest in bluegrass and mandolin came through the Dawg.  Here's my list of players he got me interested in...

Tony Rice
Todd Phillips
Jerry Douglas
Vassar Clements
Tony Trischka
Ricky Skaggs

(Yes, these were all from the Rounder Album alone)

----------


## SternART

> I think the Internet reaches down to Mexico too!



I heard Jon was on the beach opening a cold one.  

Actually I heard he was organizing his archives, from MANY years of being the staff photographer, as well as writer for Frets and Guitar Player magazines.  He documented much more than the DGQ.  His press pass got him into most venues in the Bay Area, and he was an avid concert photographer, as well as all the magazine studio shots.  In fact he wrote a book on concert photography.......I have an autographed copy here somewhere.  Check out his web site, great, and I mean REALLY great shots of Garcia, Bill Monroe, Joan Baez, Eddie Van Halen, etc.

http://www.humblepress.com/

----------


## SternART

And here Jon documented a Comando pickin' party at my studio, back in 2002:

http://www.humblepress.com/CoMando/index.html

----------


## mandopete

> I heard Jon was on the beach opening a cold one.


Wireless perhaps?

Thanks for the link Art - Jon is certainly one of the best to be sure!

----------


## musicofanatic

Thanks Jon and Art, for the very cool trip down memory lane. My recollections from the era: 
  Finding out at five in the afternoon that DGQ (version one) was opening for Leo Keotke in Flagstaff that night, jumping in the car, hauling ### from Phoenix, getting there just in time to see Tony playing some plastic gtr!!. I had the first record for a month or so at that point and just revelled in the live versions. And they played Spain! Wow! Bailed after their show (Leo who?) to find the boys and got to hang out and yak some. 
I was on the road in the seventies as the mandoliner in a band out of Tucson called _Summerdog Bluegrass Experience, Mariachi & Swing Ensemble_ (really!), and we commonly found ourselves with off time in the bay area  (before or after a gig at Paul's usually). Two amazing shows that I just stumbled upon... 
  (1) Ran into my old pal Steven Andersen on the street in S.F. who said he was in town for the Guild of American Luthiers convention at the (damn brain cramp-what was the name of the hall next to the Exploratorium?!? Palace/Temple of Fine Arts or something like that?!?!) and he got us in. The O'Connor/Wasserman era DGQ were hanging out all day at the instrument exhibition and then played a show there that evening. It was sort of a "kid in a candy store" affair, with the cream of the crop from the exhibiting luthiers; maybe twenty or so incredible inst on stage that the fellas juggled all through their show. I met some Aussie named Gilchrist there. He had a coupla nice mandolins with him. I shoulda bought one!
  (2) Had just seen Tiny Moore, who had befriended my band after a few gigs together through the years, and he mentioned he was part of a show coming up at the GAMH, and would we like to be his guests? Hell, yes!! It was a MWN benefit with (gasp) JETHRO!!! (and, oh, the DGQ and some other mando types were there too, but JETHRO!!!!). Jethro performing solo, doing his Vegas-style lounge act; oh boy, what a treat. Funny as hell between songs as well as during (never heard anyone with that much humor in his playing) wow. Another foggy recollection from that show: Marky and Mikey engaged in some sort of heavy metal duet on K-4's backstage! Those kids!

Can I brag what a true blessing to get to know and jam with (numerous times) Tiny Moore, a true giant amongst mere mortals!! Logged a few hours deconstructing standards with him and Vern Baughman, an amazing Eldon Shamblin devotee.
And further: a shout-out to Richard Somers, who I met and had a nice time chatting with once when Summerdog co-billed with BITS somewhere, sometime in No. Cal. Goodf*ckintimes!!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## mandolirius

<It was a MWN benefit with (gasp) JETHRO!!! (and, oh, the DGQ and some other mando types were there too, but JETHRO!!!!). Jethro performing solo, doing his Vegas-style lounge act; oh boy, what a treat. Funny as hell between songs as well as during (never heard anyone with that much humor in his playing) wow.>

Well put! I consider myself very lucky to have seen Jethro perform solo early on in my mandolin-playing life. It taught me how much could be done with this little instrument. It was a horizon-broadening experience. After that, I'd listen to someone like Joe Pass and, instead of just admiring his playing, I'd find myself wondering if I could do some of that on the mandolin

----------


## AlanN

Musicofanatic, this one's for you

----------


## SternART

COOL hearing your recollections there Musicofanatic.  Yep, Palace of Fine Arts
I'm inquisitive....Where is "out there" that you hail from......and what is your real name?

----------


## musicofanatic

> Musicofanatic, this one's for you


Okay, where'd you get that?!? Is that from a t-shirt or the album cover? That logo cannot appear without proper credit given to it's designer: cartoonist, graphic artist (oh, and he plays some fancy mandolin, too) Tom Rozum. Tommy preceded me in the mandolin chair of this fine Tucson musical institution. Ah, the glorious past!

----------


## AlanN

Yes, hats off to the lovely and talented TAR for the use of this image.

----------


## mdlorenz

About 4 months & no posts... bump   :Smile:

----------


## AlanN

I'll add to the bump.

Musicofanatic is/was a great mandoliner. I remember when the pink record DGQ came out, his band was playing a show. During half-time, they piped this record over the PA, and he picked along perfectly with each tune on Side A as it played. That tattooed my brain right there.

----------


## mandopete

> I remember when the pink record DGQ came out...


Pink record?  You mean like pink vinyl?

Hmmm

----------


## T Foster

The woman on guitar was Ellen Kearney. I was also at the Keystone concert and I remember Maria joined them and played fiddle on a tune


> Jon, there were a few other GASB gigs with the lineup of:
>  Great American String Band 
>   * Jerry Garcia - banjo, vocals
>   * David Grisman - mandolin, vocals
>   * David Nichtern - guitar, vocals
>   * Richard Greene - fiddle
>   * Taj Mahal - bass 
>   * Buell Neidlinger - bass (4-26-1974 to 6-13-1974)
>  Their set lists looked like this:
> ...

----------


## T Foster

> The woman on guitar was Ellen Kearney. I was also at the Keystone concert and I remember Maria joined them and played fiddle on a tune


I was at the DGQ'a 2nd concert in Berkeley. I wasin one of Dawg's mandolin classes with Todd Phillips. This was the first time he met Todd. Todd gave me a ride to the bus station after the class

----------


## T Foster

> I thought, from your posts that you should, but since you asked, just trying to help.
> 
> Both of those Rudy Cipolla recordings are great, the earlier one was re-released as "Mandolin Maestro". I hope someone will someday release more of Rudy's music.


David referred me for Classical mandolin lessons when i was a student at UC-Berkeley in the 1970's. He was a beautifull sould who owned a candy store in S.F He was a wonderful human being

----------


## jim simpson

What a great photo of Dawg playing a bowlback mandolin. I remember seeing a friends bluegrass band at some dive and the mandolin player was playing a bowlback. I remember my first DGQ concert. I thought that would be it since I was on the east coast at the time. Then I got to see him again with DGQ in Bethlehem, PA at Musicfest - wow! Just as good. Then he came to Glenside, PA with Doc Watson - again, just great music! Then he came to Phila. with Old and In The Gray - wow again! Loved hearing Peter again with Dawg plus Herb Pedersen, Bryn Bright, and (R.I.P) Vassar Clements. I thought that I couldn't top that then Dawg comes to Sellersville, PA with the Bluegrass Experience. I've enjoyed each and everytime I've heard Dawg (plus he's always been gracious and approachable).

----------


## T Foster

Kudos to Humble mex for starting this website. When I moved to the West Coast to attend UC-Berkeley. Andy Statman, my teacher in Bklyn, referred me to David. I was in one of his mandolin classes with Todd Phillips. In fact, it was at this classthat they first met. Todd gave me a lift to the bus stationi S. F. after the class. I believe I saw the 2nd concert eevr of the original DGQ in Berkeley. They played w/o any amplification in this small venue. I actuall y had  alesson at Dawg's house in Mill Valley, days after he had been giving private lessons to Mr Dylan

----------


## Capt. E

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that Dawg was the heir apparent to BM until he began branching away from Bill's strict bluegrass doctrine. Who is now considered BM's heir now, Ricky Skaggs perhaps? Perhaps it takes more than one person.

----------


## Spruce

> I believe I saw the 2nd concert eevr of the original DGQ in Berkeley. They played w/o any amplification in this small venue.


Yep.  
Great night...

The tune I remember the most was John Coltrane's "Lonnie's Lament"...

----------


## T Foster

> A book, I agree! #DAWG music is so important and it sounds like you folks may have enough material and pictures possibly for a book.
> 
> Speaking of great stories, I love the one that David tells about meeting Todd Phillips. #He said that Todd approached him with a deal to trade mandolin bridges that Todd made for mandolin lessons.
> 
> Grisman summed it up with, "pretty soon I didn't need any more mandolin bridges and Todd didn't need any more lessons."
> 
> Great stuff.


And to add to the story  I was in the  same mandolin class as Todd in Sausalito. I have the class taped and the moment Todd showed David his Mandolin Bridges, and David being suitably impressed by Todd's work. After the class Todd drove me to the bus station in S.F.

----------


## SternART

Still wondering who musicofanatic is.........and now T Foster.
Do I know either of you from the ol' days?
Arthur

----------


## John Soper

Bump - sitting on the deck of a beach cottage in NC... reminded of this wonderful thread from the link provided in the recent Manzanita posting... it has been > 6 months... anymore Dawg Tales?

----------


## jim simpson

I've posted this shot before but not in this thread. It's from my first of many Dawg performances. Long live the Dawg!

----------


## SternART

I just noticed the bump.....hey Jon Sievert is in the Bay Area & will be visiting my studio in Benicia, CA tomorrow for the Will Patton / John Bird jam-party.  July 3rd Noon - 6.

If anyone needs directions.......PM me.

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## RSomers

Arthur,
Don't need directions, just a car that gets me there and back. Can't believe this string is still alive.
All the best from 1,725 miles away...say hey to Dan.

----------


## SternART

We'll pick a Dawg tune for ya Richard....but I'm still workin' on Richochet......slacker that I am.
So many tunes to learn.......so little time, with trying to earn a living these days.

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## Psyberbilly

> The Quintet performed regularly throughout 1977 but began to slow down as 1978 got underway. Lots of things were happening. In January, Tony went into the studio at 1750 Arch to start recording "Manzanita" with Sam Bush, Ricky Skaggs, Jerry Douglas, and Dawg. Around the same time, Grisman accepted a commission from Dino De Laurentiis to write the score for "King of the Gypsies," a big budget film starring Sterling Hayden, Shelley Winters, Susan Sarandon, Brooke Shields, Judd Hirsch, Annette O'Toole and Eric Roberts. When De Laurentiis asked David who would like to hire to execute the score, he told him Stephane Grappelli. I believe Tony and Diz Disley were featured on guitar. Shortly thereafter, David also began work on "Hot Dawg," the second DGQ album.
> 
> The film faded pretty quickly after release, though it was not a stinko by any means. Roberts even drew a Golden Globe nomination for Best Motion Picture Male Acting Debut. The score was terrific, and both Stephane and David appeared in the film as musicians. Famed San Francisco producer David Rubinson told me he thought it was the best film score since "The Third Man," a classic film noire starring Joseph Cotton and Orson Welles made in 1949. High praise indeed. A soundtrack recording was planned but scrapped when the film disappeared so quickly. However, at least two of the tunes, "Gypsy Swing" and "The Tipsy Gypsy" made it into the DGQ repertoire for a while. Unfortunately, the film has not been released on DVD but I just ordered a used VHS copy on Amazon. There are still at least 20 available. 
> 
> In April, Stephane made his annual appearance at the Music Hall with his band, guitarists John Ethridge and Diz Disley, and bassist Brian Torff. David and Tony sat in on several tunes. Dawg's beard was just growing back from having been shaved for the movie. It was a great night, with Tiny Moore and Frank Wakefield showing up backstage to jam and meet Stephane.
> 
> 
> L-R: Tony Rice, Stephane Grappelli, David Grisman, Diz Disley. Bassist Brian Torff is hidden. And, no, you are not hallucinating. Tony is playing an Ovation, whom he briefly had an endorsement deal with. Fortunately, free guitars and a couple of bucks were not enough, and he got over it quickly.


I was amazed to learn in Tony's book " Still Inside " that the album " Manzanita " was recorded with that Ovation guitar ! All of these decades listening to those tunes with a mental picture of Tony playing them on The Antique . I shouldn't be surprised , he could
probably pulled tone from a cigar box strung with baling twine ...

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## JAFO

Just wanted to give this a bump. I spent hours reading and enjoying this thread and hope there may be some other new folks that would also benefit from it. I met David last summer at Grey Fox when I arranged to bring him and his wife down to Bill Keith's tee pee for some private time. When the statute of limitations runs out I will share the whole story.
Tom

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## SternART

Bill Keith was just here in the SF Bay Area as part of a banjo extravaganza at the Freight & Salvage.......with Alan Munde & Bill Evans.
Great backup band too.......had John Reischman on mando, Jim Nunnally on guitar, Chad Manning on violin and Sharon Gilchrist on bass.  I hadn't seen Bill Keith since he played with Grisman in the good ol' early DGQ days.  He went on that tour of Japan where there was a BG set and a DGQ set.

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## JAFO

Yes, Art Bill was out last week and I haven't talked to him since he got back. I missed his regular gig last night. Bill has decided to only do gigs and dates that are fun for him these days and it seems to be working out well and he is quite busy. Unfortunately, when Bill was out by you guys, Jim Kweskin was playing a small club here and had asked Bill to come play with him. That would have been neat, but Bill had to decline because of the west coast gigs. I caught the Kweskin gig and Jim had gotten two other local guys to come fill out the stage. They received no prior billing and nobody knew until they came up on the 'stage'. The two fill-ins were Happy Traum and John Sebastain. Needless to say, it was quite an evening. I'm very sorry Bill missed that.
Tom

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## johnbaxter

My exposure to Dawg music was through the Tony Rice album ("Tony Rice"). I had heard Tony's name from a friend but had never heard him play, and came across his album at Tower Records. I was impressed with the opening tune (Banks of the Ohio), but didn't pay much attention to the mando intro by Grisman. I didn't know anything about mandolins, and was more focused on the guitar, the reason I bought the album. But, when the second cut, Rattlesnake, started I was blown away. I had never heard music like that, and was unfamiliar with the mandolin. This led to me searching out Grisman's Quintet album, and because I lived in the Bay Area, I had many opportunities to see the Quintet at the Great American Music Hall. I became a huge New Acoustic Music fan and bought a Kentucky mandolin. The thing that continues to amaze me about Grisman is his composing skill. A lot of attention is on his playing, and rightly so, but it is as a composer that I think he really had an influence on New Acoustic Music.

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## SternART

I agree John.......There are a lot of hot pickers who write tunes with lots of notes.........but I don't walk out of the shows humming the tune, like I might after a Grisman show.  The Grisman legacy has a foundation in the great body of of music he has written, then add the recorded output, his record label putting out numerous new & old recordings of note.......his skill at being a bandleader and arranger of his compositions for the band.......or how about as a talent scout, just look at the young cats he keeps finding for his band over the years.....and he also happens to be one of the most expressive and talented players to ever play the mandolin.

Adds up to a heck of a special musician.......a very talented fella.   :Disbelief:

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## ralph johansson

> I was amazed to learn in Tony's book " Still Inside " that the album " Manzanita " was recorded with that Ovation guitar ! All of these decades listening to those tunes with a mental picture of Tony playing them on The Antique . I shouldn't be surprised , he could
> probably pulled tone from a cigar box strung with baling twine ...


According to my copy of the book the song Manzanita, not the whole album, was recorded on the Ovation. So what? Ovations and dreads are different. As I remember them from the 70's Ovations were very clinical-sounding, with few overtones and very even response; they also happened to record very well. Rice probably found it suitable for this type of song. 

Listen to the album River Suite; it's been a long time since I heard it but as I recall about the 3rd or 4th number I took notice, THAT'S got to be the D28. So I inferred that he was playing a Cruz or Ovation on the first few cuts. Hard to tell, because the sound is pretty soggy on Rice's Rounder records, probably too much reverb. And besides I'm not crazy about the recorded sound of his D28.

"Pull tone" is a cute myth. We like to believe that our heroes are capable of endowing an instrument with properties that simply aren't there. What we perceive as "tone" is usually something else. Let's say we would recognize Rice on a Washburn, by his timing, his phrasing, his dynamics and phraseology,  but I don't think he'd be very happy with it.

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## AlanN

Need to re-read that book, but I thought the LP recorded with the Ovation was Backwaters (all but the opening track Common Ground).

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## Spruce

> Need to re-read that book, but I thought the LP recorded with the Ovation was Backwaters (all but the opening track Common Ground).


I finally played an Ovation the other day that indeed was recordable, and thought of those Tony tales...
So I guess they _do_ exist...      :Wink:

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## WaveRay

Cool thread. Thanks, everyone.

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## ETKearney

> As Arthur says, there were several variations of the Great American String Band. Somewhere around here I've got a cassette with seven tunes on it from a gig with Richard Greene, John Carlini, and a woman named Ellen Kearney on rhythm guitar. I remember Arthur and I spent an afternoon listening to tapes of many DGQ gigs and I dubbed a few down to cassette with Dawg's permission.


Good Morning,
I am the "woman named Ellen Kearney" you referred to in this 2006 posting, so I suppose this is a long shot so many years later...A friend was wandering around mando cafe and came across this thread.
I never had any recordings of the band in the configuration you mention, and I'd love to get a digital copy of the recorded 7 tunes you made, if possible. My time with the band was short-lived but oh so interesting. If you need it, you have my permission to contact David Grisman and ask his permission to release it to me. I'd be so appreciative....

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jim simpson, 

smokinop

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## MikeEdgerton

Hi Ellen. You might get lucky as this poster's last activity on the Cafe was Aug-09-2017. You could try sending them a Private Message. Hover your mouse over the original posters name and you'll see an option. That will be delivered to the last e-mail address that this person set up on their profile. Good luck.

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jim simpson

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## jefflester

And Art Stern is very active here and might have those recordings as well.

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## SternART

Back in the day I was Grisman's archivist & had access to his tapes, they were stored in my studio. I don't have a copy, but David probably does somewhere in his archives.

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## AlanN

my bad, wrong cat (or should I say dawg, ha)...carry on...

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## Charlieshafer

Darol Anger also has a ton of old recordings and photos. I can't say they're from the old Quintet days, but there's a lot of stuff he keeps digging up. This is kind of a fun thread to revive, in it's original spirit. Certainly Mike Marshall, Darol Anger and Edgar Meyer   (who isn't a DGQ alumni, but still critical) have continued to influence a huge number of musicians of all ages. When Darol left DGQ and helped found the Turtle Island String Quartet, her was very instrumental in fusing classical into that mix as well. 

I wish I could post a short video of Mike and Darol jamming away post-show with a couple of our fiddle club leaders. One is particularly poignant for me, as she was a kid just taking classical lessons as a middle-schooler, and her parents put her in one of our summer bluegrass camps for kids, and she went on to study at Ithaca, and now takes some private lessons from Darol and another Berklee prof, Sara Caswell. These guys do have an effect on many generations, not just the old folks who remember way back when...

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## Drew Egerton

I'm not typically a fan of reviving old threads, but this one is such a treasure and may be of interest to other Dawg fans. I stumbled across it at the bottom of a long internet worm hole.
I'll just add that the music of this era is still drawing people in and influencing them 45+ years later. The more I have learned about mandolin and music in general, the more I come to love it.

I have been playing mandolin since 2004 or so, but only became interested in Dawg/New Acoustic within the last 5 years or so. Starting with the more bluegrass-y tunes like Cedar Hill, Dawg's Bull, Emd and then growing into the rest. I have also been lucky enough to study with Mike Marshall via ArtistWorks and have learned a great deal in that time including working on some of these tunes. I had the honor to meet Richard Somers a couple of years ago and he gave me a Dawg pick which I treasure for the connection.
I've also started a LP collection consisting of primarily mandolin content featuring Dawg, Mike, Jethro, etc.

I am also greatly looking forward to my first ever trip to California coming up in two weeks to Benicia for Mike's mandolin retreat. I will have to stop by the GAHM to see the place where so much of this amazing music was made. Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread over the years! Quick edit to add that I just found the thread of Arthur Stern's passing, sad to hear after reading all his amazing contributions here.

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jasona, 

Lee Lauridsen

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## mandolin breeze

> I'm not typically a fan of reviving old threads, but this one is such a treasure and may be of interest to other Dawg fans.


Greatest thread in the history of threads . . . it can never end!

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tjmangum

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## Que-sera

Thank you for the revival, i didn't know this thread existed

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tjmangum

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## Paul Cowham

I just listened to the latest episode (#15) of the excellent David Grisman "acoustic encounters" podcast with Danny Barnes. In this edition, Dawg talks about early DGQ and also talks about Arthur Stern towards the end.

It reminded me of this excellent thread...

https://acousticdisc.com/podcast/

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Drew Egerton, 

Lee Lauridsen

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## Nashville

Fascinating!

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tjmangum

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## MandoMaximus

Hey fellow Dawgologist > This live performance of the Jefferson Starship with Dawg sitting in was recently posted on YouTube. Was the first time I've seen his very unique electric F5. Complete with 2 tone knobs and his trademark "Dawg" headstock to boot! Is anyone familiar with this instrument or seen him play it? Fascinated to learn more. Nice version of Bluegrass At the Beach @ 1:08:25. Check his other vids, there's another show where David is playing is blond Giacomel, great version of Mill Valley Waltz and a couple others. What about that electric F5 though?

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Lee Lauridsen

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## WilliamWMeyer

I'm listening to this Maria Muldaur record (https://www.discogs.com/master/10964...The-Sunny-Side), and Dawg is credited on there as playing banjo. Has anyone seen him do this, or did he only do it when Garcia wasn't looking?

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## jefflester

> I'm listening to this Maria Muldaur record (https://www.discogs.com/master/10964...The-Sunny-Side), and Dawg is credited on there as playing banjo. Has anyone seen him do this, or did he only do it when Garcia wasn't looking?


Garcia and Dawg did a banjo duet of "Sweet Sunny South" on the Shady Grove album and live.

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WilliamWMeyer

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## starrbri

Curious question, what is the difference or history of Acoustic Disc vs Acoustic Oasis?

I've been occasionally downloading lossless AD albums and was just curious about the two categories or Labels?

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## Nathan Kellstadt

I'm hoping someone will elaborate if necessary and correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Acoustic Disc is Dawg's record label. Acoustic Oasis is specifically for high quality downloads of Acoustic Disc releases.

I'm also happy to see this thread revived.

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## jefflester

https://acousticdisc.com/music-downloads/

"The Acoustic Disc catalog of CD releases is now available in digital download format..."
"The Acoustic Oasis catalog of digital releases is now available exclusively on this website."

I believe Acoustic Disc is albums that have had an actual physical CD (or cassette or even vinyl) release. Some of them are still available as CDs, but many of them are now out of print. But all(?) are available as downloads. Acoustic Oasis is strictly downloads, alternate titles or hi-def versions of albums that did have a physical release. And many of those that are a download version of a previous ACD title include bonus tracks from the same sessions.

If you're looking at the ACD for a particular title, be sure to check the AO section as well. For instance, the original album "Doc&Dawg"  DLACD-25 14 tracks is $10 to download in the ACD section (and Hi-Def), but there is "Doc Watson & David Grisman Complete Studio Recordings" 35 tracks for $15 (also up to Hi-Def) in the AO section
https://acousticdisc.com/product/doc...dawg-download/
https://acousticdisc.com/product/doc...ings-download/

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## starrbri

> https://acousticdisc.com/music-downloads/
> 
> "The Acoustic Disc catalog of CD releases is now available in digital download format..."
> "The Acoustic Oasis catalog of digital releases is now available exclusively on this website."
> 
> I believe Acoustic Disc is albums that have had an actual physical CD (or cassette or even vinyl) release. Some of them are still available as CDs, but many of them are now out of print. But all(?) are available as downloads. Acoustic Oasis is strictly downloads, alternate titles or hi-def versions of albums that did have a physical release. And many of those that are a download version of a previous ACD title include bonus tracks from the same sessions.
> 
> If you're looking at the ACD for a particular title, be sure to check the AO section as well. For instance, the original album "Doc&Dawg"  DLACD-25 14 tracks is $10 to download in the ACD section (and Hi-Def), but there is "Doc Watson & David Grisman Complete Studio Recordings" 35 tracks for $15 (also up to Hi-Def) in the AO section
> https://acousticdisc.com/product/doc...dawg-download/
> https://acousticdisc.com/product/doc...ings-download/


Ah makes sense.  And great tip, I haven't really ventured into AO.  Will check it out. Thanks!

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## JeffLearman

> https://acousticdisc.com/music-downloads/


  Hey thanks!  Nice to see that "Dawg Jazz / Dawg Grass" is finally available again.  It's one of my favorites but hasn't been available for a long time.  Fortunately I still have a digital copy from vinyl (made using an old DAT recorder by a friend.  A modern rendering would probably sound better.)

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