# Music by Genre > Old-Time, Roots, Early Country, Cajun, Tex-Mex >  Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

## stringalong

If this is a duplicate discussion, I apologize.  I couldn't find another one.  

For years and years, I asked fiddlers to tell me / show me the difference between hornpipe and reel rhyhms.  I could not get cogent or meaningful answers.  

A few months ago I found this recording.  The player is doing the same tune, first as a a reel, then as a hornpipe. (I don't know what the tune is, but that doesn't matter.)   https://vimeo.com/35325677 

I also found two dance links. 

hornpipe dancing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgZTxsvWi_4


Reel dancing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvHeTArCnYQ

I've been discussing hornpipe rhythm with some fiddlers online.  So far, I have gotten  a bunch of complicated, technical comments about bowing and notation styles.

I play Rickett's Hornpipe on the mandolin as a hornpipe, with dotted rhythm like the links I post here. One fiddler says hornpipes are played with a backbeat, but the fiddler did not send an audio or video to illustrated this.  Anyone know whether mandolin players play hornpipes with a backbeat -- and can provide a link to a back-beat hornpipe?

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## ampyjoe

Both hornpipes and reels are played in many different ways. For example the hornpipe with dancing clip you show is of competition dancing which has complicated steps and therefore the horpipes are played pretty slow. On the other hand Fisher's hornpipe as played by a bluegrass band will probably be faster than anything played by an Irish style player.

So it depends on whether you're asking about Irish music or American music or another style. However, for Irish music here's a hornpipe into reel set by two nice players, Kevin Burke and John Carty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4plCacl4DQ0

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## HonketyHank

There are several discussions on this topic at thesession.org. All I can say is it's a good thing that the internet doesn't do fisticuffs. The best advice I got was to follow the degree of 'dottedness' or 'swing' that is customary with the session in which you are participating. It will almost certainly vary from one session to another and maybe even from one tune to another.

A tip I just learned, more or less along these lines: If you find a tabledit file of a hornpipe, it will almost certainly be written as straight eighth notes instead of some swing or dottedness. You can force a more hornpipy rhythm on playback by moving the cursor to the beginning of the tune, then going to "MIDI Options" and changing the syncopation level to 1. I am not sure you can do this with the free TablEdit reader, but it works in the full version.

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## stringalong

Hello, HonketyHank and ampyjoe.  Very good information from both of you. Thanks so much.  I like what Ampyjoe says about various ways to play hornpipes and reels.  And I am, well....amused?  ha ha by HonketyHank's remarks that "it's a good thing that the internet doesn't do fisticuffs."  Also, I like  your "The best advice I got was to follow the degree of 'dottedness' or 'swing' that is customary with the session in which you are participating. It will almost certainly vary from one session to another and maybe even from one tune to another."  This is so basic -- yes, that's just the way things ARE, isn't it?  Duh, says me,  and here I was trying to figure out how to do it.....

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## JeffD

> It will almost certainly vary from one session to another and maybe even from one tune to another."  This is so basic -- yes, that's just the way things ARE, isn't it? .


And from one player to another.

Hornpipes in general swing or bounce more than a reel, like dotted eighth sixteenth, (apple apple apple apple) but I have rarely seen a hornpipe written out that way. If I play a hornpipe as if it were a reel, with straight eighths (watermelon watermelon), to me it just sounds boring.

I error the other way. I tend to bounce my reels a little too much.

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## stringalong

Thanks, JeffD.  Yes, from one player to another.  Everyone on this thread has so much to offer to the discussion. Thanks, all!

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## Bertram Henze

Rhythmically, a hornpipe played the Irish way is more related to a jig than to a reel. They write them in 4/4 with dotted quarters and and eighths, but they play them like 6/8 with quarters and eighths, i.e.
not like (8-8-8) 8 (8-8-8) 8
rather like (8-8) 8 (8-8) 8

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## s1m0n

> Rhythmically, a hornpipe played the Irish way is more related to a jig than to a reel. They write them in 4/4 with dotted quarters and and eighths, but they play them like 6/8 with quarters and eighths, i.e.
> not like (8-8-8) 8 (8-8-8) 8
> rather like (8-8) 8 (8-8) 8


I'd be more inclined to say that an Irish hp can be closer to 12/8 than 4/4 or 6/8. The odd-numbered notes (in a run of 8th notes) can be swung to nearly twice the length of the even notes. Do the math, and that comes out to 12/8. Many Irish hornpipes (eg Harvest Home) break into a bar or more of triplets, showing how close the underlying structure is to 12/8. Jig time has a different feel.

Given that different players, styles, and regions swing hornpipes to differing degrees, however, it makes sense to notate them in 4/4 - that's what the various versions have in common - and to trust the musician to add the right amount of 'lift'.

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## Manfred Hacker

I think for most of us mortals on this forum the degree of dottedness also depends on the tempo. Once I get beyond 180 bpm (quarter notes) it gets increasingly difficult to play bouncy hornpipes with barrages of triplets. You can't play dotted if you are hanging on for life!
Only the very best can play real fast, clean and with a dotted feel.

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## stringalong

Yes, Manfred, so true.

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## Gelsenbury

I have this really strange problem with reels: I find it hard to play all those notes fast enough in 4/4 time. The rhythm is the simplest conceivable, but it feels as if there weren't enough way markers or white space for orientation. So I often find myself swinging the rhythm while practising. This turns the tune into something more like a hornpipe or march, and strangely, makes me feel less lost.

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## cbakewell

> So it depends on whether you're asking about Irish music or American music or another style. However, for Irish music here's a hornpipe into reel set by two nice players, Kevin Burke and John Carty.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4plCacl4DQ0


I agree 100%

FWIW, I was taught how to dance the 'English old-style' hornpipe (not a 'thing'. just the only way I can think of to describe it) about 40 years ago. Think rough and ready sailors on a masted ship rather than fancy steps and competition stuff.

I can still do a few steps - about 15 seconds worth before my aging frame gives up.

The 'feel' of clip posted seems about right to me - although a tad faster would be easier to dance to.

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## Ausdoerrt

Well, FWIW, Marla Fibish, whose Irish mando lessons I've been watching over at Peghead Nation, does swing her reels. Not as much as hornpipes, but pronounced enough. I personally like how that sounds.

In addition, practicing fast passages of anything in dotted rhythm is a common and effective exercise.




> Hornpipes in general swing or bounce more than a reel, like dotted eighth sixteenth, (apple apple apple apple) but I have rarely seen a hornpipe written out that way. If I play a hornpipe as if it were a reel, with straight eighths (watermelon watermelon), to me it just sounds boring.


Interesting, cause the explanation I've seen and that made the most sense is that actually the hornpipes are played with emphasis on 1 and 3 (i.e. Watermelon Watermelon), while with the reels every other note is accented (i.e. Apple Apple Apple Apple).

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## stringalong

Isn't it amazing how many interpretations of hornpipe rhythm there are/can  be?  Little did I know that, when I started this rendition of the thread on hornpipes.  Yes,   Ausdoerrt, this is so true of me:  " I personally like how that sounds."  i.e. whatever I do, which is like the links I posted here already.  I will listen to Marla Fibish, whose Irish mando lessons I've been watching over at Peghead Nation --- really looking forward to hearing her!

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## s1m0n

edited

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## JeffD

> Interesting, cause the explanation I've seen and that made the most sense is that actually the hornpipes are played with emphasis on 1 and 3 (i.e. Watermelon Watermelon), while with the reels every other note is accented (i.e. Apple Apple Apple Apple).


Shows the limitations of fruit rhythm. I pronounce "watermelon" pretty evenly, without much emphasis, the way I play a reel but how could one know that. And by "apple" I meant that I pronounce with the "ap" being longer and emphasized over the "ple".

If you are familiar with morse code, I conceive of a hornpipe rhythm as  _ . _ . _ . _ .   
and a reel as . . . . . . . .    

The emphasis you mention in reels, is, in general in my experienced, really toned down. And at some of the speeds reels are played at its more like eight staccato bursts from a machine gun.

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## Jim Garber

> If this is a duplicate discussion, I apologize.  I couldn't find another one.


Not a duplicate thread but similarly discussed *on this thread*.

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## stringalong

Thanks, Jim.  I appreciate the link to a previous, similar discussion.  I found out somewhere (Maybe the Fiddle Hangout) that The Session forum has maybe 8 separate threads on hornpipe vs reel rhythm.  There's also  a discussion at the Fiddle Hangout.

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## stringalong

Just got this email....but can't find simon's post here.  Here's what the email says:

Simon has offered a lot of good info here, too.  s1m0n has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes - in the Old-Time, Roots, Early Country, Cajun, Tex-Mex forum of Mandolin Cafe Forum.

This thread is located at:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...s&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
The OP concerned american old time hornpipes. I responded with info about Irish HPs. We need to consider, however, english country-dance 3/2 hornpipes, which completely unlike what we know. These are the melodies that are commonly called seaman's hornpipes. The association, however, comes from an 18th C stage play with a "sailor's chorus". Real sailors didn't get a vote.

There are a bunch of Playford tunes

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## Ausdoerrt

> Shows the limitations of fruit rhythm. I pronounce "watermelon" pretty evenly, without much emphasis, the way I play a reel but how could one know that. And by "apple" I meant that I pronounce with the "ap" being longer and emphasized over the "ple".
> 
> If you are familiar with morse code, I conceive of a hornpipe rhythm as  _ . _ . _ . _ .   
> and a reel as . . . . . . . .    
> 
> The emphasis you mention in reels, is, in general in my experienced, really toned down. And at some of the speeds reels are played at its more like eight staccato bursts from a machine gun.


Yeah, so moving away from the fruit rhythm  :Laughing: 

The rhythm part you mentioned is really subjective, and I've seen it vary from person to person. It's more pronounced in hornpipes, I think, cause they aren't usually played as fast as reels. But in the Marla Fibish lessons I've mentioned, when she plays the reels slowly, she also does the _ . _ . _ . _ .  It just sort of goes away the faster you play.

So the way I've understood it, the difference between hornpipe and reel is in emphasis/accents more so than rhythm, because both are essentially the same at 4/4. So in hornpipes, the ONE and THREE are emphasized, while in reels it's more even, with a light emphasis on every beat.

So hornpipe: ONE - and-a - THREE - and-a - ONE etc.
Reel: ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR

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## JeffD

> So the way I've understood it, the difference between hornpipe and reel is in emphasis/accents more so than rhythm, because both are essentially the same at 4/4. So in hornpipes, the ONE and THREE are emphasized, while in reels it's more even, with a light emphasis on every beat.
> 
> So hornpipe: ONE - and-a - THREE - and-a - ONE etc.
> Reel: ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR


Well I would go more than that. Its more than than just emphasis, I mean it is emphasis but it is duration of the note. daah dit daah dit daah dit.

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## HonketyHank

OK, here's an extension of the question. How do you pick the notes in a hornpipe?

I have spent some time seeking out jigs to learn so as to become accustomed to the down-up-down down-up-downpicking technique. Few jigs are composed completely of strings of eighth-notes; most have lots of quarter-note eighth-note pairs. In order to preserve the DUD-DUD rhythm, these quarter-eighth pairs are played Dowwwn down Dowwwn down Dowwwn down, ... , right?

So, now, the hornpipe eighth-note pairs are played so as to sound somewhat like the jig's quarter-eighth pairs. Does this mean that one plays hornpipes using pretty much all down strokes (as if it were a jig)? Or do you play alternating down-ups like you would a reel, even though you are applying some swing or dottedness?

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## JeffD

> So, now, the hornpipe eighth-note pairs are played so as to sound somewhat like the jig's quarter-eighth pairs. Does this mean that one plays hornpipes using pretty much all down strokes (as if it were a jig)? Or do you play alternating down-ups like you would a reel, even though you are applying some swing or dottedness?


Well I don't. I play them DUDU-DUDU like reels, just with a different duration.

I am not sure what I do with my jigs. I mean in general I do DDU-DDU or the recommended DUD-DUD, but I will have to see what I do when its not a string of even notes.

But as an over arching concept, I do not attempt to keep my right hand movement rhythmically uniform, I don't really think about it. I pick the notes, find that my hand adjusts. Something like that.

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## Ausdoerrt

I also do DUDU, but with the proper emphasis and "swinging". Most hornpipes are in clear 4/4, and it'd get tiring to play all downstrokes.

Besides, I feel like the picking pattern for jigs isn't so much about rhythm as it is about accenting the 1st and 3rd notes of every three. In hornpipes, you accent the first of every 4, so DUDU does the job.

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## Bertram Henze

> Well I don't. I play them DUDU-DUDU like reels, just with a different duration.


Same here.

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## s1m0n

English country dance 'hornpipes' - in 3/2 rather than a swung 4/4 - have nothing in common but the name with Irish hornpipes. Different rhythm, different melody, different steps, and they're a century earlier. They're not the same tunes at all. Totally a different musical category.

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## HonketyHank

> English country dance 'hornpipes' - in 3/2 rather than a swung 4/4 - have nothing in common but the name with Irish hornpipes. Different rhythm, different melody, different steps, and they're a century earlier. They're not the same tunes at all. Totally a different musical category.


Interesting. Could you post an example?

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## Gelsenbury

> Interesting. Could you post an example?


Here's one: https://youtu.be/Epw5WBuwvig

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## Ausdoerrt

That's way cool, now I gotta try playing some of those. Any recommendations?

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## cbakewell

Rust Gulley (as performed above) is one that plays well on mandolin.

I love the 3/2 Hornpipes, and have collected just about every one that I could find in the ABC archives.

FWIW, these are not the 'English Style' Hornpipes  I referred to my previous post - definitely wouldn't try dancing a sailor's hornpipe to any of these  :Smile:

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## Ausdoerrt

I found this rendition, and I like it a lot:

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## foldedpath

> And from one player to another.
> 
> Hornpipes in general swing or bounce more than a reel, like dotted eighth sixteenth, (apple apple apple apple) but I have rarely seen a hornpipe written out that way. If I play a hornpipe as if it were a reel, with straight eighths (watermelon watermelon), to me it just sounds boring.


That's how I think of it too. Hornpipes need a little bounce to sound lively, but the degree will vary tremendously from one player to another, or one OldTime jam or Irish session gathering to another. There is still always a wee bit of bounce in there somewhere, or it doesn't sound like a hornpipe to my ears.




> I error the other way. I tend to bounce my reels a little too much.


Ah, but reels are self-correcting in that respect. As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, you can't bounce 'em too much if you're playing at anything close to actual dance tempos. There just isn't time between the notes.
 :Smile: 

With reels at dance tempo (circa 105-112 bpm counted as 2/2) we're free to concentrate on other things, like getting a good drive and pulse going with the rhythm. 

As general advice to the OP, I'd say beware of YouTube examples for getting the rhythm feel of a reel, unless they're played close to actual dance tempos where you can hear the subtleties of drive, lift, and degree of emphasis (or not) on the backbeat. With all due respect to my fellow mandolinists, many examples by amateur players on mandolin are just too slow. I'm often guilty of this too, when practicing mandolin at home. Playing in a local session is a good corrective for that, where I'm reminded of the degree of lift and drive the fiddlers, whistlers, and pipers manage at faster tempos.

The example linked early in the thread of Kevin Burke and John Carty is a good tempo to shoot for. The Beare Island reel at the end of the clip runs about 108 bpm (counting 2/2), which is about the tempo I hear reels played in many local session. Some higher-end sessions might go a bit faster, and if you're playing for dancers they might like it closer to 112-115 bpm. But I think somewhere around 108 bpm is a good target for learning, and of course it sounds great in Kevin's hands. If you're playing at that tempo you won't be swinging dotted quarter notes because there just isn't time. Focus on the straight-ahead pulse instead.

I'll leave y'all with this clip I've posted before from fiddler Jamie Laval, where he literally walks you through the reasons why reels are played in this range of tempos:

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Jack Roberts

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