# Music by Genre > Old-Time, Roots, Early Country, Cajun, Tex-Mex >  Describe old-time

## billkilpatrick

- as distinct from country, country and western and bluegrass. probably been done before but - as someone said - a refreshing point of view is always welcome.

never heard of "early country" before - would stephen foster be correct? ... 19th cent. popular songs?:

http://www.stephen-foster-songs.de/Archiv.htm

- bill

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## AlanN

I once heard a radio DJ call it **fiddle and banjo cra9**

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## sunburst

I believe this "description" came form a case sticker:

"Old-time music - it's not as bad as it sounds"

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## lgc

Old time isn't distinct from country because in many ways it is the only country. If you take the genre title "Country" literally, and I don't know why one wouldn't, then old time is the only form of music in the country umbrella that represents a purely country aesthetic-the lives of those who lived in rural post industrialized America. This is especially true of the field recordings where people took wax cylinder recorders and captured the music of the country in the country. 

Old time is not a kind of music. It is music from a time. Blues, fiddle music, some jazz, cowboy songs, rag, brother duets are all part of what today is concidered country.

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## Paul Kotapish

Bill,

There have been a number of previous threads about this topic, and scholars differ. 

As most commonly used, the term "old time" refers to tradition-based string-band, solo, and duet music of the rural south, and would include instrumental dance tunes and airs as well as ballads, play-party ditties, and novelty songs.

In general this refers to the styles that were common prior to the particular variant of old-time string band music that evolved into bluegrass under Bill Monroe's guidance Some folks like to parse the meaning a little more specifically to mean just fiddle and banjo music (clawhammer or frailing or pre-Scruggs two- or three-finger styles), but most folks have a more inclusive meaning that would embrace the mandolin and guitar duets such as the Monroe Brothers or the Blue Sky Boys, the early recordings of Doc Watson, and most of Norman Blake's work, for example. 

In my book, old-time music includes folk music performed primarily at home by tradionalists such as the Hammonds family or the Watson family or the Richie family as well as the commercial string-band music of early country artists like the Carter Family, Gid Tanner and the Skillet Lickers, Charlie Poole and the North Carolina Ramblers, et al. 

Modern revivalists and practitioners of old-time music include the seminal New Lost City Ramblers, Tom, Brad & Alice, Foghorn Stringband, Stairwell Sisters, Chicken Chokers, and many, many others.

A lot of folks make a clear distinction between old-time music and bluegrass; others--me, for instance--view bluegrass as a specific variant of the broader realm old-time string-band music. 

Here's a handy link to the Old-Time Music Home Page.

You'll get some more opinions and resources there.

Here's a link to a previous discuss here about "What is Old-Time Music?"

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## John Flynn

This is a quote I got from an old time site on the web that works for me:



> Old-time music is the hand-made and homemade music of the southern Appalachians and rural pioneer America. Growing out of Anglo-Scots-Irish traditions with some African-American elements thrown in, it was commercialized in the 1920s and 30s as hillbilly music. String bands usually include a fiddle, banjo, guitar, and string bass, but mandolins, dulcimers, and other instruments are also used. Old-time vocals include gospel, ballads, and lyric songs.


I don't think the differences with Country and Western deserve much discussion. As has been discussed in other threads, C&W today is just pop music with steel guitars and cowboy hats. It has no relation to old-time that I can see or hear. 

The following are differences that I have noticed, at least in my local area, between bluegrass and old-time. #While any one of those differences might leave only a blurred distinction between the genres, the whole list, taken together, makes a big difference. Most people familiar with either genre could tell the difference almost immediately on first hearing a tune bring played. 

NOTE: There are certainly exceptions to all of the items below and they are not intended to be a set of "rules" or a completely valid set of characteristics. These are just some observations and opinions developed for my own use. YMMV.

1. Solo breaks are the usual practice in BG. They are never done in OT.

2. Singing, especially harmony singing, is done on most BG tunes. It is done in only a few OT tunes.

3. Blues progressions are common in some BG tunes, but rarely if at all in OT.

4. Blue notes, such as flatted thirds and sevenths, in both chords and melodies, are common in BG, but almost never heard in OT.

5. BG has much more emphasis on performance for audiences. OT is much more what I call "participation music," oriented toward jams and contra dances. 

6. BG has gotten fairly commercial. Most of the big players are national/international celebrities that make a full-time living from playing music. Therefore commercial interests control much of what happens in BG. OT is still mostly non-commercial. The big players are regional celebrities at best and most still have day jobs. As the saying goes, "There's tens of dollars to be made playing old-time."

7. BG is popular music that is about 50  75 years old and has developed a strong, loyal fan base. It was developed by Bill Monroe from OT and the blues, with his own unique spin. OT on the other hand, is true folk music that has evolved over centuries. It has been an ingrained part of rural American and European cultures.

8. BG is usually played standing up. OT is usually played sitting down.

9. In OT, mandolin is not too common. When it is used, it is more commonly an oval hole type with a sweet, melodic sound. In BG, it is a key instrument and it is typically an F-hole type with a sharp, percussive sound.

10. OT uses open-backed banjos, played in the clawhammer, or similar, style. BG uses resonator banjos, played three-finger style. Many say the latter is key to the BG sound and it is never heard in OT.

11. The guitar in OT generally only plays rhythm and bass runs and the emphasis is on a sweeter tone. In BG, the guitar plays solos as well as rhythm and tends to be more percussive. 

12. Instruments such as mountain dulcimer, hammered dulcimer, hardanger fiddle and banjo uke are known and accepted in OT, but not at all in BG. Bass and dobro are very common in BG, but rare in OT.

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## lgc

I disagee with all but 6,7,10,12. Ols time is unbelievably broad as a form. From Blind Blake to Ariona Dranes. Both break a buncha those rules and they are just the tip.

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## John Flynn

Like I said, they are not rules, just observations that work for me.

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## AlanN

uh oh..are we heading to a "That ain't old-time" discussion? I hope so

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## mingusb1

Oldtime is not a crime.

Z

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## mandolirius

&lt;Oldtime is not a crime.&gt;

nor is it a punishment 


i thought mando johnny's observations were pretty accurate except for:

&lt;6. BG has gotten fairly commercial. Most of the big players are national/international celebrities that make a full-time living from playing music. Therefore commercial interests control much of what happens in BG. OT is still mostly non-commercial. The big players are regional celebrities at best and most still have day jobs. As the saying goes, "There's tens of dollars to be made playing old-time."&gt;

Around here old-time music is on fire. There are lots of new players, new bands and they are getting followings and gigs. The early 20's folks are more interested in old-time than bluegrass. I think it's because they see it as more of a group participation, "let's all get together and have some fun" type of experience than bluegrass, which seems to be more about practising with your band and getting better. Not to say old-time players aren't doing that, but the old-time jams around here are more attractive to this generation than the bluegrass jams. There are tons of clawhammer banjo players here now, but bluegrass banjo players are rare as hen's teeth.   

I just got back from a weekend long jam camp and all the old-time players were under 30, the bluegrass player for the most part were over 30.

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## lgc

I saw if a form of muic is on the Harry Smith Anthology then it is old time. I ain't saying what old time ain't, I'm sayin what old time ain't ain't.

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## John Flynn

> bluegrass banjo players are rare as hen's teeth


Sounds like heaven to me!

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## mandolirius

Quote 
bluegrass banjo players are rare as hen's teeth 

Sounds like heaven to me! 


It is, until you need one for a gig.

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## james condino

The boys in the Foghorn String Band describe it as this:

"In bluegrass, everybody takes a turn soloing and it gets passed around. In old time, everybody solos, all of the time..."

j.
www.condino.com

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## lgc

After I last posted I walked away and thought about the views about BG and OT on this board and in the broader discourse. How is it that OT, which may be the single broadest musical genre of all time,ever, is so narrowly defined to mean Appilachain fiddle music? It is 2 or 3 dozen forms of music. And then how is BG, which is a farily narrow genre of music, with a disrinct starting point, a small group of distinct originators, and a defined set of aesthetics get so broad that any music with three finger banjo in it is BG?

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## lgc

http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=47357;hl=lgc

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## Michael H Geimer

Contra Dances are probably the most common, public situations to hear Old-Time music, so it doesn't surprise me that the term is often associated with Appalachian (and New England) fiddle tunes.

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## mandolirius

&lt;How is it that OT, which may be the single broadest musical genre of all time,ever, is so narrowly defined to mean Appilachain fiddle music? It is 2 or 3 dozen forms of music. And then how is BG, which is a farily narrow genre of music, with a disrinct starting point, a small group of distinct originators, and a defined set of aesthetics get so broad that any music with three finger banjo in it is BG?&gt; 

How? Because labels aren't accurate. I think, of the 2 or 3 dozen forms you're thinking of, most of those would fall under "country" in my mind. Now my definition of country is basically the myriad of styles that first went on the air as the Grand Ol' Opry. So I'm undoubtedly thinking of some of the same things you are, only you're classifying them as old time. And if we were having this discussion anytime prior to 1950, we wouldn't even be calling any music bluegrass, because there was no such word for a musical style. It was the name of one guy's band or a type of green shoot that looks blue in the light. And zipping right along to modern times, you would not believe the bands I hear described as bluegrass (along with four or five other stylistic labels) in the local music rags:     
"celtic/cajun/blues/rock/bluegrass titans" was one I recall. I guess it's easy to be a titan. Just create your own category and you're the king of it. Labels to me are just not useful, other than for occasional comedic relief, so I pay them very little heed.

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## OregonMike

Good discussion - We saw Dirk Powell and Riley Baugus play with Foghorn Stringband last night and it was some of the finest "Old Time" music I could imagine - classic dance hall barn burners (not once did I even think Bluegrass). They also played several of their Cold Mountain tracks with Tim Eriksen who was stunningly good.

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## mythicfish

It's the name of a kind of music used by "the people who play it" in order to differentiate themselves from" the people who don't play it". #In that respect, it's identical to bluegrass.

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## John Flynn

I think it's important to have a context for a discussion about a genre title like "old-time" or "bluegrass." What I mean is, that defining "old-time" as "only Appalachian fiddle tunes," for instance, has one implication if you are in a broad discussion of musicology, but quite another implication if you are using it to define what kind of music is going to be played at given jam in a given part of the country. 

I'm fine with people calling anything old-time that they want to call old-time for the sake of academic argument or even a discussion over a beer. But if you are attending an "old-time jam" in my area of the country, what kinds of tunes will be called and played at that jam, and what kinds of instruments will be welcomed, will fit into a pretty narrow set of characteristics. That is not any rule I have made, or even the way I would like it to be. It's just they way it is. I am sure there are different sets of characteristics everywhere you go. 

I think the failure to clearly define the context for the definition is why these kinds of discussions often become pointless, unresolvable debates.

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## Michael H Geimer

With the OP's reference to Stephen Foster, I don't think the question was coming from the perspective of Old Time Jamming.

I think the recent online libraries of field recordings are going to expose a lot of people to rural mountain music who may not know anything of Old Time Jamming (and it's regional expectations).

IMO, it's the jams and dances that have narrowed the expectations to songs and performance styles that fit the local events.

Solo ballads, slow tempo tunes, and vocal songs aren't as useful to a dance, and so they aren't always welcome. That doesn't mean they aren't part of the genre. They just got left out of the jam and dance scene.

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## John Flynn

> With the OP's reference to Stephen Foster, I don't think the question was coming from the perspective of Old Time Jamming.


I see the first post in a thread as a conversation starter. The conversation can then go in all sorts of directions and like it or not, it usually does. I don't see the purpose of a post as just strictly answering the OP's question, especially if it has already been answered several times in earlier posts. Also, I've heard Steven Foster tunes called at OT jams, so I wouldn't see that as a limiting factor in any case.

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## Michael H Geimer

Yes, all in conversation. I was hoping you would take my comments above in a conversational spirit, and not in an argumentative way.

Friday!

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## John Flynn

I did take it that way, thanks. Yes, Friday.

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## JGWoods

Well I know it when I hear it. 
Once you get up on stage and start playing Old Time you are off on the fringe of it. I won't say it belongs on the porch, but it came from there. 
Folks should dance, or sing along, or talk away like it's not even there. It's music you want to join in on, tap your feet, hum, play the spoons, sway along with your girl- and pass that fruit jar will'ya. 
If you ain't smilin' it ain't old time.

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## mythicfish

"It's the name of a kind of music used by "the people who play it" in order to differentiate themselves from" the people who don't play it". In that respect, it's identical to bluegrass. "





"But if you are attending an "old-time jam" in my area of the country, what kinds of tunes will be called and played at that jam, and what kinds of instruments will be welcomed, will fit into a pretty narrow set of characteristics. That is not any rule I have made, or even the way I would like it to be. It's just they way it is. I am sure there are different sets of characteristics everywhere you go. "

I rest my case. # # #

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## John Flynn

> Well I know it when I hear it. 
> Once you get up on stage and start playing Old Time you are off on the fringe of it. I won't say it belongs on the porch, but it came from there. 
> Folks should dance, or sing along, or talk away like it's not even there. It's music you want to join in on, tap your feet, hum, play the spoons, sway along with your girl- and pass that fruit jar will'ya. If you ain't smilin' it ain't old time.


There it is, right there. Thanks JG.

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## billkilpatrick

thanks everyone ... not what you would call "gin" clear, however (smiley symbol).

from what i gather, "old-time" means "slow" - tunes one could dance to with a partner wearing whale bone corset and crinoline and performances in which melody is served by the instruments (mainly string) rather than being a vehicle for blistering technique.

if this was mentioned, i missed it but shouldn't "old-time" music be considered as uniquely american?

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## mythicfish

So, if it's "only this" and it can't be "that" ...
Oh Brother, where am I?

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## John Flynn

> from what i gather, "old-time" means "slow"


Well, that is another regional thing, I guess. In my area, Illinois/Missouri, the tendency is to play blazing fast. Sometimes we slow down to what I would consider "medium speed" if we are playing a contra dance, but for performances and jams, we are at speeds that rival anything you would hear in bluegrass.

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## Gutbucket

I've watched Bruce Molskey play oldtimey tunes many times, and he definately doesn't play them slow.

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## lgc

I don't think that it is uniquely American because much if not most came from European traditions. It served the same function as Italian, Irish, German and many other folk musics of Europe and contained similar form and aesthetics. As to old time not being country or vicy versus, I would love to hear, specificly, what the differences are from country of the 20's and 30's and the "old time" of that period. How wasn't Jimmy Rodgers OT? And how wasn't Earl Johnson country?

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## PhilGE

Having danced to what I've always called "old-time music" for many, many a moon, "old-time" conjures up a contra and/or square dance with a string band playing fiddle tunes waaaay into the night. That's not to exclude other definitions whatsoever. Though I've never met Mando Johnny, I remember the St. Louis music and dance scene he describes. Old-time fiddle tunes being played well and at a good clip is kind of like "home" to me. That's probably why I like Foghorn. The Freight Hoppers were a bit too fast for my taste.

and now off to work!

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## hoffmannia2k7

I first got into acoustic music through modern music, the lieks of david grisman, bela fleck, a friend gave me the four-disc bill monroe collection, I loved flatt and Scruggs, I got into the first newgrass revival disc. 
Then in Massachusetts i met some old-time folks this happened after listening to John Hartford's Hamilton Ironworks, hearing the Holy Modal Rounders 1 and 2, and getting a copy of the Harry Smith Anthology of American Folk Music. Since then I have definitely leaned toward old-time music.

I don't want to pigeon hole old-time though.

I rally enjoy early mandolin music of which there is plenty and the majority of it does not include fiddle or clawhammer banjo.

I love early blues, of which there are plenty of flat-notes and off keys.

I really like the string bands like the skillet lickers, the hometown boys, eral johnson, fiddling john carson.

Of course there is the vaudeville type music of charlie poole and uncle dave macon.

Then you always can listen to the raggy stuff like the East Texas Serenaders or Grinnell Giggers.

You can listen to the monroe brothers, blue sky boys, delmore brothers.

Buell Kazee, Dick Justice, Roscoe Holcomb, Dock Boggs and a slew of other balladeers

The only kind of old-time music that doesn't get my fancy is the fiddle and clawhammer banjo duetty stuff which is the main thing people associate old-time music with.

Vernon dalhardt, Bud Billings, Otto Gray and His Oklahoma Cowboy feature lots of instrumental solos by different instruments in almost every cut. There is no clawhammer banjo in these groups, but I still consider this old-time. 

There is also plenty of dobro in old-time, in my opinion. Red Mountain Trio, Nelstone's Hawaiians, Jimmie Rodgers.

But really if we couldn't argue about genres what would we do all day?

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## lgc

For slide, don't forget tarlton and darby or vicy versa and the Dixon brothers.

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## resophonic

Nobody has mentioned an important difference when comparing Old time to Bluegrass. Bluegrass places rhythmic emphasis on the back beat, chopping on the mando or the fiddle. This is not done in Old Time, backing places rhythmic emphasis on the down beat. The guitar backing and base runs reinforce this.

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## MikeEdgerton

The term "fiddle and banjo cr@p" was from a Martin Mull album where he mentioned the "folk music scare of the 60's, where that fiddle and banjo cr@p almost caught on...."

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## Fred Keller

Best definitions I was ever given were the following:

Bluegrass: you sing about jesus and mama

Old Time: You sing about chickens and whiskey.

I love--and play--both, so I offer this for fun. I do, however, lay claim to the future albume title: "Jesus, Mama, Chickens, and Whiskey"

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## lgc

You could make it a sentance-"Jeseus mama: chickens and whisky!"

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## hoffmannia2k7

whiskey! jesus, mama chickens.

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## lgc

Jesus-Chickens, Whisky-Mama

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## Fred Keller

I like that, lgc! I'm one of Compton's web-students so I gave him the definition. He liked it and asked if he could use it. I told him "fine, so long as you credit me in bold type on the cover." I won't hold my breath

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## hoffmannia2k7

long live mike compton web lessons!

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## hoffmannia2k7

if you s^%&$ enough D&&^e perhaps you can take webcam lessons fro Bill Monroe from beyond the grave

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## Michael H Geimer

Mama Jesus' Chicken Whiskey®

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## Fred Keller

_"Just a pint before bedtime, and say goodbye to that cold
"_

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## poymando

I think what "old-time" was in the '20s-'30s when a lot of it was commercially recorded, is very different from what "old-time" is to a contemporary picker. I think the current scene owes more to the changes made to the music by the Hollow Rock String Band, Fuzzy Mtn, Highwoods etc in the late '60s-'70s than to the music of Charlie Poole, Riley Puckett or Clarence Ashley etc..

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## JeffD

> The following are differences that I have noticed, at least in my local area, between bluegrass and old-time. 
> 
> 
>  These are just some observations and opinions developed for my own use. YMMV.


Yes I would agree with all of them. 

I play both OT and BG, and have had a ripping good time at both OT and BG jams.

I think the increased commercialism of BG compared to OT has resulted in a lot higher percentage of folks with "performance ambitions" in the BG community. Both have their performers and wannabees to be sure, but I perceive there is more of that in BG. OT has a lot more "back porch pickers" who are in it for the community and the friends and the jamming, and the corn bread and chili.

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## poymando

I play music full-time and play both bluegrass and old time styles. As far as the commercial aspects of OT or BG, it is much easier to sell "bluegrass" as the general public has an idea of what it is even if they really don't know anything about the music. Old-time is more of a challenge to find work for. And in areas like where I'm from (upper Midwest)"old-time" means something entirely different to some people (accordion music, European traditional music) Another interesting anecdote....
I was speaking to a bluegrass musician (who comes from a family of trad string band players) from the Galax area a few years back and we were discussing our interest in both OT and BG. She suggested I come down there sometime to check out their festival. I mentioned that I had been to Clifftop and she said "oh, we call that "hippie music". I don't think she was disparaging the music at all, just drawing a distinction.

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## billkilpatrick

"old-time, string band music" works for me too - further defined as being "american" ... "italian" etc..

to me, bluegrass suggests flash ... intensity and speed (bling-grass?) played by pukah musicians who really know their stuff - old-time suggests "folks" having a go (as previously stated) out on the back porch.

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## JeffD

I remember the fellow from Dry Branch Fire Squad, I forget his name, (many years ago), saying that OT is as close as you can get to not being able to pick at all, or some such.

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## JeffD

> Best definitions I was ever given were the following:
> 
> Bluegrass: #you sing about jesus and mama
> 
> Old Time: #You sing about chickens and whiskey.


Like all good jokes, there is something true in that.

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## hoffmannia2k7

poy mando, you summed it up for me in a nutshell

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## El Greco

Robert Cantwell's "Bluegrass Breakdown:..." book attempts to describe old time a little bit, albeit only in its relation to how Mr. Monroe created a new genre. 

Nevertheless, "old time" music in a relatively young nation such as the U.S. brings up connotations of "early settlers's music" from the old world to me (and that includes Africans uprooted and brought here, not only Europe). In that sense, old time probably is influenced by the musical traditions the first inhabitants of this land brought together from their respective homeland and shared in the fields, marketplaces, front porches, etc.

In my mind, old time is the basis of genres such as bluegrass, blues and jazz. It has celtic, germanic, hispanic and african roots, which means melodies, tempos and instrumentation or no instrumentation are in flux.

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## El Greco

Old time cannot be about chicken and whiskey IMHO. There were not many chickens around and whiskey was distilled only by those who could afford it. Subjects revolve around death, misery, moonshine, "mishaps," beauty, ancestry, hunting, land, etc.

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## 8picker

back to the origional question about stephen foster;my band recorded a stephen foster song on each of four cd's.Im pretty sure we play old time.
www.roughdeal.com

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## Paul Kotapish

> I think what "old-time" was in the '20s-'30s when a lot of it was commercially recorded, is very different from what "old-time" is to a contemporary picker. I think the current scene owes more to the changes made to the music by the Hollow Rock String Band, Fuzzy Mtn, Highwoods etc in the late '60s-'70s than to the music of Charlie Poole, Riley Puckett or Clarence Ashley etc..


Poymando,

My observation is that folks who are serious about playing old-time music today are much more likely to be learning from visits with old masters or from field recordings than they are from recordings of the '60s and '70s revivalists you mentioned. One of the wonderful boons of modern audion technology and distribution is that formerly arcane sources available to only a few inside acolytes are now in common distribution. With a few clicks of the mouse one can be listening to Marcus Martin playing "Cousin Sally Brown" or Burl Hammons playing "Fine Times at Our House," and this access has--in my experience, anyway--led to a much more sophisticated and discerning bunch of old-time musicians in recent years.

While it is true that there are lot of old-time string bands performing in the style of some of the revival bands, there are plenty of musicians who are woodshedding with decidedly noncommercial sources and are performing the music in a decidely noncommercial manner. And even bands with more of a show-biz slant seem to be emulating the performance styles of acts from the early part of the last century rather than that of the latter half. 

As for the so-called commercial aspects of old-time versus bluegrass, this is an area with endless shades of gray and very little black and white. Bluegrass music--that is, the string band music of Bill Monroe and the Blue Grass Boys and their myriad emulators, enthusiasts, and reinterpreters--was unapologetically "commercial" right from the get go. Monroe wanted a red-hot band to fulfill his artistic vision and he wanted crowds of people paying money to hear them play and he wanted his music on the radio and on record players. It's impossible to speculate on whether he would have arrived at the same artistic vision without the commercial aspirations, but two were intertwined from the inception of the idiom. 

Old-time music has always been a mix of tradition and commerce, and has always included both the front porch and the limelight. 

Just one guy's opinion. YMMV.

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## poymando

I wonder if Stephen Foster is most truly a "Pop" songwriter rather than old-time. (Although his as well as other pop/tin pan alley songs made their way into the folk/old time repertoire)

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## poymando

Hi Paul et al,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. After spending a week at Clifftop this last summer I have some observations (and opinions)
Yes, I think some players are learning from archival/commercial recordings but I wonder if they are moving into a minority. The vast majority of bands and jams were playing in the more contemporary trance/everybody plays lead style. There is an excellent essay titled "Looking for Henry Reed: Confessions of a Revivalist" by one of the styles founders, Tom Carter, in the book Sounds Of The South. It is a very interesting read and it describes the roots and reasons behind the contemporary sound.
I have also recently seen a number of threads talking about the influence of punk music on contemporary old time music.
I have not heard very many "old time" sounding old time bands. There are certainly a few out there but they are a minority. (I heard a number of the more reactionary of those folks have started a Harry Smith festival)
I definitely agree on the commercial origins of BG. Interestingly enough, that music has morphed into a non-professional,folk music for some people. An interesting topic this..

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## lgc

The HArry Smith Festival is great. There's some real old timey stuff there. Peple who learn the skillet lickers catalouge front to back complete with skits. And they don't pretty it up like the mainsteam bands do. It is beautiful stuff. NOrthern Mass and Southern VT are the place to go to hear some great OT.

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## 8picker

My impression is that Stephen Foster was indeed a writer of popular songwriter...and one of the most "successful" of his time. This of course didn't mean he was a rich man. I believe he died penniless, although I'm not sure if that was his own doing or that the publishers of his songs ushered him into poverty. I guess I'd better do some research. 

Old time music is so many things to so many people...for me, in 2007 its about a way of playing, as much as what you play. commercial, non-commercial, with obvious tinges of rock and roll, hell- I've heard "old time" bands with a beatles edge to their singing (please don't ask me to explain). 

All I know is its a lot less fun when people start drawing lines in the sand. As a wise person said on another similar thread; "don't worry. play."

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## poymando

[quote=lgc,Nov. 28 2007, 15:53]The HArry Smith Festival is great. There's some real old timey stuff there. Peple who learn the skillet lickers catalouge front to back complete with skits. And they don't pretty it up like the mainsteam bands do. It is beautiful stuff. NOrthern Mass and Southern VT are the place to go to hear some great OT.



I heard it was great. I hope to make it out there sometime.

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## billkilpatrick

> #NOrthern Mass and Southern VT are the place to go to hear some great OT.


i'm an infrequent (alas) visitor to southern vermont (quechee) - please elaborate.

- bill

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## lgc

They just have the best OT fiddlers I've heard. Real Earl Johnson/Gid Tanner type stuff, alota drive and fire with a deep and genuine lilt. But all kindsa stuff-cajun, early country, Appalachian, you name it. Really amazing players. They just have the touch. Nothing sterile about it, like a lot of new time being played now.

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## 8picker

i feel i must add, because I see Bill is a charango enthusiast. I can't find many people here in Ireland to back appalachian tunes with a guitar (or anything else) there's a few old time players, but we're pretty well spread about the place. I have the good fortune of playing with a great fiddler who can back southern tunes with his charango with a wicked down beat...sort of banjo-ukey. Just thought you'd appreciate the connection.

Oh yeah...before someone points it out- I'm aware that the Beatles (I mentioned them earlier) and their harmonies are in no small way endebted (sp?) to the American old time tradition.

PS

I lived in VT for years...and up there are some of the most southern sounding northerners you'll ever hear.

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## billkilpatrick

> ... a great fiddler who can back southern tunes with his charango with a wicked down beat...sort of #banjo-ukey. Just thought you'd appreciate the connection.


WHOA! ... mp3's pleeze!

(coming along nicely with my - infinitely more sane - mandolin)

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## bones12

I do live in Vermont and echo the great music here. We moved here from North Carolina and have played old time here and there for over 25 years--it is wonderful. This is a small state and we all travel to play. Old time music has always been a life-style driven music that grabs you and won't let go. Doug in Vermont

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## Paul Kotapish

> There is an excellent essay titled "Looking for Henry Reed: Confessions of a Revivalist" by one of the styles founders, Tom Carter, in the book Sounds Of The South. It is a very interesting read and it describes the roots and reasons behind the contemporary sound.
> 
> I have not heard very many "old time" sounding old time bands. There are certainly a few out there but they are a minority.


Poymando,

Thanks for the tip on the Tom Carter article. I'll check that out. Tom definitely has some bona fide old-time music credentials, but the last time we played together we were fooling around with banjo and bouzouki duets on trad material played with Afro-pop and reggae grooves. I'm afraid we would not have passed the old-time-music litmus test with a jury of deaf monkeys.

I'm curious about your Clifftop experiences and which bands or individual musicians would qualify as sounding old-time. What's the difference between them and the not-so-old-time musicians--to your ear. (Rhythm, instrumentation, bowing, microtonal intonation, arrangements, soloing, what?) I'm not disagreeing with your analysis, but it would be helpful to know your criteria. Most of the folks I know who go there are pretty particular about the details of the music, and many of them are happiest when the band comprises no more than one fiddle and one banjo.

There was some rather heated discussion fostered by a review in the _Old Time Herold_ a few years ago in which a noted-and-much-admired old-time musician chided some other rather prominent and equally admired old-time fiddlers of roughly my generation (born mid century or thereabouts) for playing with modern intonation that didn't accurately reproduce the microtonal scale subtleties of certain regional fiddlers. Opinions were a tad hyperbolical on the subject, and that is one area where I would agree that most younger musicians do not seem to be carrying on the details of the traditions.

Just one guy's opionion.

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## bassthumper

OLD TIME covers a broad spectrum....unless one resides in my neck of the woods where it is limmited to one repetative clangy-clangy song with 14.000 titles and nary a break or heaven forbid upstroke on the guitar....i love to hear it when traveling....but close the windows when it pulls up in the yard....

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## poymando

Hi Paul,
Thanks again for another thoughtful post. As to my OT criteria, I don't think I can get down to microtonal intonation but I would post a few observations. As to musicians I heard that were playing really "old time" sounding stuff. Paul Brown, Mike Seeger, Dave Rice, Benton Flippen, some folks from Arkansas (don't know their names but they were playing lots of Grinell Giggers stuff. Nice rags)a young singer named Nate Lane, a young woman who was a ballad singer, my travel partner, (who is "Mr C" and is way into MS string bands from the '20s)
Old time...."Sounds like dead guys"
As to ear differences, the big one for me would be polyrhythms in older recordings compared with the unison playing of more recent styles. The older stuff is just more funky, more rhythmic and perhaps is closer to the African American influence on the music.
Another thing missing for me is the lack of variety. No offbeat sounds like bowed cello, very little fingerpicked banjo, very little singing, few waltzes. I play banjo as well and I think the current approach for that instrument has really become homogenized.
Perhaps there were folks hiding out in the woods but I really had my ears open the whole week for the scary stuff and did not find much.
That said, the level of playing in general is extremely high.
Lots of super players down there and it is a wonderful festival. Old time music certainly seems to be having another little revival and there is no shortage of fantastic musicians out there.
I'm making observations, not saying one approach is better than the next. I think if I want to listen to OT music, I'm going straight into the graveyard to hear Dock Boggs, Bill Cornett, East TX Seranaders, Mississippi Shieks, Frank Hutchison, Monroe Bros, Doc Roberts etc.
I think if I'm looking for a good time though, I'd probably join the big jam around the campfire!

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## mandolooter

not sure what time it is...here

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## billkilpatrick

in an unrelated thread, here at the cafe, a sagacious gent suggested that improvisation should be true to the tune - as opposed to (i imagine) a flurry of notes and a frenetic display of technique.

could staying "true to the tune" be a distinuishing characteristic of old-time?

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## mandroid

It's all in the Public domain , by now?

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## poymando

That is priceless!

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## Paul Kotapish

> This is the real thing:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAD23x_3Q90
> 
> 
> Note the microtonal intonation.


Brilliant!

Two of the things I loved about folk/bluegrass/old-time festivals in the '60s and '70s was the relative lack of boundaries between the various idioms compared to what you find today and the sense of fun and playfulness that many of the acts displayed. Sure it was corny, but it doesn't get much better than that rendition of "You Are My Sunshine" by Cousin Emmy. That contemplative taxim at the beginning is particularly memorable.

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## Dave Gumbart

Okay, a bit of an aside (and, admittedly, I haven't read every post on this thread thoroughly). I'm surprised no one has brought up Ron Thomason's statement on old-time music. Maybe not the exact quote, but it goes something like this. "There's a fine line between being able to play old-time and not being able to play at all." Of course, when he says it, it's actually funny.

I don't know if it qualifies as an old-time song, but hearing the Reeltime Travelers do their song "Hallelujah" (Martha Scanlon's song, really), certainly qualifies as great music, in my book. Too bad there aren't so many fruit jars up in the northeast....

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## mandolooter

that was funny

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## poymando

The comedy routine made me think of the Goose Island Ramblers. This is a interesting read about a great old time band that mixed all sorts of traditions with a healthy dose of comedy:
http://csumc.wisc.edu/newslet....r06.htm
I saw Bruce and George play this last spring and they are as good as any traditional performers I've ever seen. Both of them are still playing really well.

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## Peter Hackman

> in an unrelated thread, here at the cafe, a sagacious gent suggested that improvisation should be true to the tune - as opposed to (i imagine) a flurry of notes and a frenetic display of technique.
> 
> could staying "true to the tune" be a distinuishing characteristic of old-time?


As for the first paragraph: the logical opposite of one extreme is not the other extreme. In jazz, for instance, there are lots of improvised solos that are neither "true to the tune" nor "a flurry of notes and a frenetic display of technique".

High-level # improvisation, however, does require quite a bit of technical ability, to prepare you for whatever comes into your mind, and for a logical continuation of your momentary inspiration. In some sense, improvisation requires a lot more technique than is actually used. 

The answer to the second question is "no". I don't know why you are so keen on having definitions and dichotomies. Lots of BG solos are very "true to the tune" with little or no improvisation; there were pre-BG string bands that played take-off solos (esp. in Texas) and although some old-time recordings feature repeated non-improvised solos these may very well deviate quite a bit from the melody. One example is the Carter Family's "Hello Stranger".

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## Peter Hackman

> As for the so-called commercial aspects of old-time versus bluegrass, this is an area with endless shades of gray and very little black and white. Bluegrass music--that is, the string band music of Bill Monroe and the Blue Grass Boys and their myriad emulators, enthusiasts, and reinterpreters--was unapologetically "commercial" right from the get go. Monroe wanted a red-hot band to fulfill his artistic vision and he wanted crowds of people paying money to hear them play and he wanted his music on the radio and on record players. It's impossible to speculate on whether he would have arrived at the same artistic vision without the commercial aspirations, but two were intertwined from the inception of the idiom. 
> 
> Old-time music has always been a mix of tradition and commerce, and has always included both the front porch and the limelight. 
> 
> Just one guy's opinion. YMMV.


I think you are glossing over the (to me) important distinction between "professional" and "commercial". I've known many full-time professionals (mostly jazz musicians) and I think I know something about their working conditions, and their constant struggle to resist dumbing down and diluting their art to land more gigs, or sell more records. 

And the non-trivial time spent on telephone calls etc. spent on getting just one single gig.
They would write me off as an ingorant or even idiot were I term their music "commercial".

Yet, someone called jflynnstl writes, referring to bluegrass, that many of its practioners are full-time musicians, and THEREFORE controlled by commercial interests, whoever they are. 

 Note the "therefore".

 And JeffD writes about the increasing commercialISM of bluegrass - N.B., *not* the increasing acceptance, not the increasing commercial success, etc. -
but actually "IcommercialISM", connoting sell-out, prostitution, dumbing down.

As you can see above both are unable to explain what they are talking about. Sometimes words come much too easily.

So much can be said about the curent BG scvene that some of the most successful acts (with a few records out on independent labels) play stuff that is much more demanding on the listener than anything by, say, the Stanley Brothers or Jimmy Martin.

As for Monroe he became a professional musician in 1934. For several years he and his brother performed and recorded successfully within the broad category of what is now called old-time music.

 His later development through the Victor, Columbia and early Decca years was mainly driven by pride and the desire to raise his art to a higher level of professionalism. Compare, for instance, his treatment of instrumentals on the Victor sessions with those on Columbia; the latter are much less repetitive, with very conscious contrast between segments of a solo or different solos from one player. 

Most importantly, his group sound was entirely formed by a group of touring musicians, and yet today I don't know of any successful act in BG that was the brainchild of some A&R man. 

To me, bluegrass is an artform, the same way jazz is an artform, although I listen much more to the latter. I'm happy if it sells enough records to allow its practioners a comfortable living, without speculative commercial concessions.

Just curious how much these cats actually sell. A pre-depression old-timey act like Gid Tanner's Skillet Lickers routinely sold several hundred thousand copies each of their singles, Jimmie Rodgers typically sold something like half a million.

Wonder if today's commercialistic BG acts sell that much? I really don't know.
THEREFORE I make no rash statements on the issue.

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## Nick Royal

One interesting defintion I read awhile back re: old time music vs bluegrass, was in that in old time music, the audience wasn't important--most people were/could be participants. In Bluegrass music, there was/is a band and an audience. The former one involves more participantion.
Nick Royal
Santa Cruz, CA

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## mythicfish

"One interesting defintion I read awhile back re: old time music vs bluegrass, was in that in old time music, the audience wasn't important"

OT music ... the rehersal that never ends.

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## Paul Kotapish

> I think you are glossing over the (to me) important distinction between "professional" and "commercial".


Peter, 

I take your point, but the semantic differences between the terms "professional" versus "commercial," strike me as an artificial distinction. As soon as you present your music to an audience--in any manner--in exchange for money, you are engaged in a commercial enterprise. Commercial success does not automatically equate with artistic compromise, nor is commercial failure some sign of artistic integrity. The Grateful Dead were one of the most commercially successful touring acts ever, and they did so while steadfastly breaking all the conventional rules for achieving pop success. Similarly the Beatles, Bob Dylan, Miles Davis, and even Bill Monroe had some of their greatest commerical successes while striking out in new and unexpected artistic directions that were thought at the time to be the antithesis of "commercial."

Just one guy's opinion.

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## lgc

The Beatles were never thought of as the antithesis of commercial. I do agree however that that distinction between commercial and professional is artificial.

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## billkilpatrick

> Originally Posted by  (Peter Hackman @ Dec. 01 2007, 07:44)
> 
> I think you are glossing over the (to me) important distinction between "professional" and "commercial".
> 
> 
> Peter, 
> 
> Commercial success does not automatically equate with artistic compromise, nor is commercial failure some sign of artistic integrity.


most definately NOT in my case but more often than not, success has to do with intelligence and talent ... and good ol' serendipity. in any given style of music there are those who recreate it and those who re-enact it - seems to me that the former have a better chance of success.

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## Paul Kotapish

> The Beatles were never thought of as the antithesis of commercial. #I do agree however that that distinction between commercial and professional is artificial.


Scholars differ, I reckon. In my neck of the woods there was a lot of head scratching at the time on the part of some listeners who weren't ready to follow the lads into the land of psychedelia and beyond on their post-_Revolver_ releases--despite the critical acclaim. I recall that my 11th-grade English teacher got reamed for having us delve into "Revolution 9" and other "White Album" selections, with parents and even some of the students denouncing that particular release as "just noise." Maybe that wasn't precisely the antithesis of what was popular commercial music at the time, but it certainly wasn't Herman's Hermits.

. . . and speaking of digressions, how about Tommy Jarrell's bowing on "Drunken Hiccups"?

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## ricardo

6++++ fiddlers playing SALLY "GOOD"N - all in unison...- for 25+/- minutes - they don't all stop together.., they jus' kinda'....QUIT!!### - Now THAT really....."sends me"--- right OUT the door! - OK!, OK! - here come the flaming arrows..hee..hee.. (Welllll, that's MY opinion of "ol' timey" - are #we still friends...! Moose.

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## Fred Keller

> 6++++ fiddlers playing SALLY "GOOD"N - all in unison...- for 25+/- minutes - they don't all stop together.., they jus' kinda'....QUIT!!### - Now THAT really....."sends me"--- right OUT the door! - OK!, OK! - here come the flaming arrows..hee..hee.. (Welllll, that's MY opinion of "ol' timey" - are we still friends...!


Hyuck. Hyuck. Hyuck.

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## billkilpatrick

don't know if this thread has run its course or not but i think i've got a good idea of what old-time is:

- it's "old" - in the sense of "good ol' days ... old ways are the best ... old folks at home ... etc., etc.." a romantic, sentimental appreciation for how the music is played.

- it's "slow" - as opposed to blisteringly quick. been listening to some old recordings of "orange blossom special" and "traced her little footprints in the snow" by bill monroe and judged by these i'd say they better have crash barriers where ever that train is headed and that poor girl must have been away from the stocks and out of that cabin like a shot.

- it's "folk" music - suggesting informality and a degree of audience participation (polite applause in the place of dixie yells, at least.)

- it's "simple" - meaning essential; minimal yet all encompassing.

like jimi hendrix and those who followed him, bill monroe inspired people to play his style of music. imho - bluegrass musicians could just as rightly be "bill monroe musicians" - those who play the same material in a slower, simpler, more folk related style are "old-time" musicians.

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## Fred Keller

Bill:

I think the biggest problem with this whole discussion is that artistic definitions are most apt for forms that have stopped moving, stopped being relevant, which are, in fact, dead.

Old time is not dead and so defining it feels more like one of two analogies: 

1. It's like the old story of the blind people trying to define an elephant. Each stands near one particular physical feature and therefore an elephant is long and snakelike or thick and tree-like, and so forth.
2. Writing about music is like dancing about literature  

My point is simply that we can come close to defining certain narrow portions of it, but since it's still changing and evolving we'll never have one sentence or paragraph that ties it all up. And that's a good thing!

Now I don't want to be a topic killer and I do think discussion along these lines is fun, so I'll throw out another wrinkle: what about new tunes written in an "old time style" (whatever that may be)? Is it old time because one intends it to be or does one need to wait a certain number of years to see if it makes it into the tradition?

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## billkilpatrick

> ...#what about new tunes written in an "old time style" (whatever that may be)? #Is it old time because one intends it to be or does one need to wait a certain number of years to see if it makes it into the tradition?


having seen your youtube videos and visited your "whistlepig" (where on earth ...?) site, i'd say intent is all you need.

take your point about an active, living art form being harder to define than a dead one.

maybe - when people ask "what sort of music do you play?" - i should just say "quiet."

nice tunes, by the way.

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## Mike Buesseler

_"whistlepig" (where on earth ...?)"_

Oooh, Fred, can I tell him? (A Whistlepig is also known as a groundhog, or in some parts of North America, a marmot, or a woodchuck. And, they do whistle!)

I don't think anyone could argue that some of your tunes are Old-Time, Fred. Well, not _me_, anyway! 

_"maybe - when people ask "what sort of music do you play?" - i should just say "quiet."_

Bill, you should just say, "_Beautiful_ music."

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## Fred Keller

> Bill, you should just say, "Beautiful music."


Dingdingding! We have a winnah. Nice, Mike!

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## Mike Buesseler

Oh,WOW! Thanks, Fred! Yahoo!!! 

Ok...I'll take "Italian Charango Players" for $200!

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## billkilpatrick

> Ok...I'll take "Italian Charango Players" for $200!


will that be cash or cheque? ... do i have to wear a tie?

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## mythicfish

This thread has gone on almost as long as it takes some OT bands to introduce a song.

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## lgc

But not nearly as long as a Thile break.

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## Fred Keller

Well, I posted a pic with our alternate logo, but forgot it had some mild swearing on it. Finally figured out how to delete. Whew! Don't want to offend...

Anyway, Pete: what kind of guitar is that! I love it and would cut down on explanation time when people ask what our name means.

I also agree that we're far from "describing old time." An image of dead horses and guys with broom handles comes to mind.

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## Mike Buesseler

Bill, I guess they don't play "Jeopardy" in Italy, eh? The question would be, "This American native sings beautifully and plays the charango in Italy." The answer would be, "Bill Kilpatrick"! (I would win, of course.  ) 

Fred, I've reported _you_ to the FBI, the AFTB, the Bluegrass Police, the Salvation Army, the FCC, the Sons of the Pioneers, and the Pork Producers of America. This sort of thing has GOT to stop!

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## entau

when I bring my octave mandolin or mandcello to a purley bluegrass situation - the instrument get's funny looks and am generlly not invited to play
when I bring an octave or mandocello to an Old Time situation - the instrument get's funny looks - but am invited to play.

the OT players are very serious about the choice of tunes -
but will venture over into celtic or other genere stuff occasionally - they tend to be into rare tunes - found in only certain books or rare recordings - not to mention arguing over the authenticity of notated version
most OT jams I have been to have been fiddle dominant
OT jams do not seem to need or care for a bass -
the ones I've been to would be happy with fiddles alone

BG tends to put more limitations on what is acceptable
BGers tend to be into the latest "hot" version of a tune
BGers prefer a bass 


most BG jams I have been to have been banjo dominant.
( I have been the only mandolin -with like 3 or 4 banjos several times)

this of course is only from my own personal experience

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## Fred Keller

> Fred, I've reported you to the FBI, the AFTB, the Bluegrass Police, the Salvation Army, the FCC, the Sons of the Pioneers, and the Pork Producers of America. This sort of thing has GOT to stop!


As long as you say nothing--NOTHING, mind you--to the Egg Council. Those guys play for keeps.

Entau:

Interesting take on the octave scene. Yeah, I've seen none at bluegrass jams and some at OT jams. It "fits" more in OT, somehow, and have been at jams with as many as 2 in the group. Fiddles definitely dominate, but this was not always the case. I've been told it's a fairly recent (say last 30 years) phenomenon with banjos, mandos, harmonicas, and dulcimers playing a much larger role in the past.

My experiences with OT differ somewhat from yours, which definitely leads me back to the notion of only being able to "define" it in a very narrow sense. For example, I've been at jams that are strict about tunes (or instruments, or vocals, you name it) and lax about them; some have added swing and blues, some only "standards," and on and on. I've been at bluegrass jams and seen the same kind of variety. The music that gets played is inflected by the people who play it. It's like milk in the refrigerator: takes on the flavor of whatever it's close to.

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## entau

Fred - yup - the alternative is to jam with loops or band in the box or recordings - less "conflicts of interest" but - I have never bought a beer for( or had a beer purchased for me by) , swapped stories with , or ran into at a show or about town with any of the above.

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## dan@kins

Regarding Stephen Foster.... I'd consider some of his music old time music. He wrote Angelina Baker or Angeline the Baker.

Hard to imagine that song isn't old time.

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## JeffD

From Jeff Todd Titon, a an ethnomusicologist who edited a really fantastic collection of fiddle tunes entitled "Old-Time Kentucky Fiddle Tunes"


"...bluegrass music, a virtuoso acoustic representation of old-time string band music meant for listening rather than dancing."

His definition of old-time is a bit more complicated. And, BTW, the tunes are really wonderful.

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## billkilpatrick

> "...bluegrass music, a virtuoso acoustic representation of old-time string band music meant for listening rather than dancing."


i think that's it. i'm sure there are bluegrass tunes one can dance to but i think bill monroe get tired - and bored - of playing these tunes in accord with the cadence of people's feet.

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## John Flynn

> Regarding Stephen Foster.... I'd consider some of his music old time music. He wrote Angelina Baker or Angeline the Baker.
> 
> Hard to imagine that song isn't old time.


The old-time tune is "Angeline the Baker" and it is traditional. Foster wrote "Angelina Baker," which appears to be an adaptation of the traditional "Angeline the Baker." In the lyrics, Foster "smoothed out" some of the harsher references to the hardships of slavery, made the lyrics more "comical" and put them into pseudo-Negro dialect. He also changed the melody, especially in the A part.

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## JeffD

> here we have this "commercialism" thing again. What exactly does it mean? In normal usage, commercialism, going commercial etc., means compromising or prostituting your art for economic reasons. It's a very strong statement wanting justification.


This really deserves its own thread, what the heck do we mean when we refer to commercialism, and is it really that?

And to be honest, I haven't thought about it in terms of prostituting art or control by external organizations. I was thinking of how the music seems to coalesce around the successful versions. Folks start wanting to play like so and so, or play a tune they heard off of this or that CD, and a greater percentage of the players aspire to making a CD or gigging.

By contrast, my experience with OT is that there is less (not none but less) emulation, and more tunes are learned at the jam or from friends, and fewer (fewer, not none) folks aspire to more than playing a dance or two.

Of course there are exceptions, and I am generalizing from my specific experience.

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## hoffmannia2k7

Old-time music. Fate Norris old time string band.

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## Griffis

Man, I love that pic of Fate Norris. I had it as my screensaver a long time ago.

There's some great discussion on this thread.

I have a couple of things to add to the chorus, at least my worthless $0.02.

When speaking of American folk forms, especially what we call country, I can definitely see a division between "Old Time" and bluegrass and more recent strands of country music.

The "Old Timers", for one thing, were typically not professional musicians. Of course you have your Uncle Dave Macons and some others who were superstars of a sort, but most of the recordings I have of early stringband country (and solo artists as well) are by people who were workers in cotton mills, mines and all kinds of other places. They would hear of an H.C. Spiers or someone coming to record local musicians and go to whatever hotel lobby or storefront they had set up for the occasion. Heck, Jimmie Rodgers and the Carter Family both started this way.

Around the end of WW2, this music shifted to a degree, with the advent of guys like Bill Monroe. European performance standards began to infiltrate the music (and bear in mind I like SOME early bluegrass and admire Monroe, etc.) But the music came to be less about old song traditions and simple people recording their tunes in less pretentious ways and mre natural settings and came to be more about technical flash.

Personally, I have a very broad definition of Old Time. I realize when people mention it they are typically speaking of pre-bluegrass country music...I especially think of 1920s-1930s-era hillbilly and mountain music, much of it derived from Old World tunes that immigrated to these shores and often became updated to reflect topical situations and stories.

However, I really classify anything recorded before WW2 as "Old Time." WW2 seems to be a good dividing point for me, and 90% of what I listen to was recorded prior to WW2. Be it hot jazz, stringband country, rural blues, Hawaiian, calypso, mariachi, or even earlier ragtime and popular songs of the cylinder recording era, I tend to lump it all together as "Old Time" music.

Sacrilege, I know.

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## ajh

....so how would Hartford be categorized?

And his "Aeroplane" rules for ensemble playing fit with any specific genre?

A sincere question.

Tony

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## entau

Easy 

Hartford is classified as

          Genius

"as uncertain as it is uneven"

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## Paul Kotapish

I'm with Peter and Griffis in my broader use of the term old-time music. I think there is more confusion in trying to categorize musicians than in categorizing the music itself. John Hartford was certain an old-time musician when he played old-time music, but he was also a singer-songwriter, a pop artist, and even an Irish fiddler on occasion. Doc Watson was an old-time musician when he played with Ashley, Price, et al, but he could also play the heck out of an electric guitar on rockabilly numbers. I first saw Doc and Merle Watson play at a bluegrass festival in Culpepper, Virginia, a festival that also featured John Hartford with Norman Blake, the Dillards, Grandpa Jones, and a host of bluegrass acts such as J.D. Crowe and the New South, and the Seldom Scene, Jim and Jesse and the Virginia Boys, and others. What I remember is that there was no distinction made between the various acts. I remember Grandpa Jones saying during one of his sets, "I don't know what all this talk is about 'bluegrass.' It's all just old-time music to me."

That kind of sums it up for me, too. 

It's not at all unusual in rural communities where traditional music is still handed down through families and neighbors for local musicians to be equally adept--and enthusiastic about--both traditional (old-time) and contemporary (pop, rock, jazz). In this country there tends to be an artifically rigid disconnect between traditional music and the classical world, but that particular barrier is a lot more porous in Europe and elsewhere. There are plenty of leading lights in the Irish, French, Scandinavian, and Balkan trad scenes who also had extensive classical training, and the two realms are not perceived as mutually exclusive.

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## jmcgann

> It's not at all unusual in rural communities where traditional music is still handed down through families and neighbors for local musicians to be equally adept--and enthusiastic about--both traditional (old-time) and contemporary (pop, rock, jazz). In this country there tends to be an artifically rigid disconnect between traditional music and the classical world, but that particular barrier is a lot more porous in Europe and elsewhere. There are plenty of leading lights in the Irish, French, Scandinavian, and Balkan trad scenes who also had extensive classical training, and the two realms are not perceived as mutually exclusive.


Very very good points. 

In my experience, the self appointed "keepers of the flame" get very threatened by "other" styles. Almost always, the self appointed are themselves "foreign" to the traditions they so uphold. 

Interesting psychology at play- the things we dislike the most in others are often reflections of things we dislike in ourselves. Like "outsiders"!

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## JeffD

> In my experience, the self appointed "keepers of the flame" get very threatened by "other" styles. Almost always, the self appointed are themselves "foreign" to the traditions they so uphold.


Isn't that the honest truth. I have seen it more than a few times.

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## hoffmannia2k7

Saw the velocity Ramblers on sunday. Great mandolin and mandocello playing by Pat Conte and John Cohen both. A good mix of old-time music and disco (I will survive).

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## JGWoods

> "...I'll throw out another wrinkle: what about new tunes written in an "old time style" (whatever that may be)? Is it old time because one intends it to be or does one need to wait a certain number of years to see if it makes it into the tradition?


Interesting question.
I can certainly be "fooled" by a new tune passing for old, and I see no problem with the idea that one can write a new, old, tune.
but
there's the issue of copyright and public domain and what can be performed without infringing on the rights of the author who deserves to be compensated in accordance with whatever regulations apply.
The result, to me, is that "Old Time" tunes are all in the public domain. Ones that aren't don't get played, or can be the cause of trouble if they are. 
I dearly love many an old tune, and some new ones too, but I only play the new ones at home. Out at the bar where I jam we only play public domain tunes.
SO- a new tunes makes it into the tradition the day it goes into public domain...?

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## Paul Kotapish

I think that the infusion of new tunes is one of the really exciting aspects of the traditional music scene around the globe. There are wonderful new tunes coming out of the old-time, Irish, Scottish, French, Balkan, Scandinavian, and Eastern scenes that are so steeped in the tradition as to be indistinguishable from the "genuine" antique articles.

Mark Simos, David Cahn, Garry Harrison, Hank Bradley, Sam Barlett et al have contributed hundreds of new tunes to the old-time repertoire, many of which have become accepted as "traditional" old-time tunes already. A lot of folks are still convinced that "Ashokan Farewell" is a venerable 19th C. tune, for example, despite loads of publicity about its fairly recent invention.

And some modern tunesmiths are slipping their creations into the commonweal without any fanfare. 

Frankie Gavin has been quietly introducing his own tunes into the tradional Irish fiddle repertoire for years without letting on that he is the composer, and I'm sure that many others are doing the same. #

The profusion of "tune suckers" (cassette, minidisc, or MP3 recorders) has helped this rapid assimilation. Folks go home from a week at Clifftop or Fiddle Tunes in Pt. Townsend and learn the tunes they recorded at sessions--often without benefit of knowing the name or provenance of the tunes they are learning. Before long . . . a brand new tune is accepted as part of the tradition.

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## lgc

The Hunger Mt. Boys do a really good job of reinventing oldtime.

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## 8picker

reinventing old time. now i've heard everything. six pages to describe old time. when is someone gonna stick a fork in this thread? its growin whiskers

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## Alex Fields

> In my experience, the self appointed "keepers of the flame" get very threatened by "other" styles. Almost always, the self appointed are themselves "foreign" to the traditions they so uphold.


On the other hand, someone like Bruce Molsky who is regarded as one of the best and is one of the most influential old time fiddlers around today is also way into other traditions and contemporary stuff. Seems like the antipathy to anything different comes mostly from mediocre players and not the ones who are really the best at what they do--because the latter usually just like good music, rather than liking tradition for its own sake.

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## 8picker

my apologies are hereby offered for rolling my eyes in previous reply. I guess it was unfair. In future I will think first. By way of a peace offering here's a damn good definition from an authority of some credibilty:

http://mikeseeger.info/html/oldtime.html

it may have been posted before
Mike Seeger's definition

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## Paul Kotapish

I like Mike's definition, and his inclusive lists of suggested recordings is broad enough to embrace Elizabeth Cotten, the Carter Family, some great brother duets, and a host of hot string bands--new and old. 

I particularly like his list of reasons why he plays old-time music.

Works for me.

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## harwilli55

I just read the Mike Seeger article !!! Thanks !! Interesting, especially because I had this same discussion with the leader of an old time jam just this week. He is a Clifftop fiddle contest winner and versed in old time musicology. He looked at my list of songs that I have learned or am learning, telling me that my list " was represented by that "O-rish music and that hippie contra stuff in which barefoot sundressed longhaired girls with flowers in their hair dance in swarms like butterflies"  All said tongue in cheek with a mischevious smile. 

I asked him what his definition of "old time" music was. His answer " the syncopation of black banjo music....period" . He traces old time from the confluence and introduction of the African banjo syncopation and southern appalachian fiddlers isolation which resulted in the fiddle tunes that tend to have more obscure variations and with strong bowing differentiations. Tunes from fiddlers influenced by the banjo have inherently, instantly recognizable syncopation that is lacking in other styles of music from that period. 

Although the conversation was short, I was fascinated and thought to see what say you to his thoughts ?

Harlan

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## Paul Kotapish

This description has a lot of merit when discussing old-time fiddle and banjo dance music (hoedowns, breakdowns, reels) but is perhaps a bit less relevant in discussing other old-time expressions.

A lot of scholars concur that old-time fiddle music, in particular, is the melding of Irish/Scottish/English traditions with African rhythms as disseminated through banjo music. Alan Jabbour (former director of the American Folklife Center at the Library of Congress and noted fiddler and tune catcher) and Tom Sauber (noted fiddler, banjo player, and one of the best old-time musicians I've ever met) have both posited the proposition that old-time fiddling is distinguished by syncopated bowing that--in varying degrees of subtelety--incorporates an African-based 3-3-2 (Bo Diddley) groove. Each can provide endless examples of how this is manifested in a large number of tunes. Those grooves are a little harder to articulate with a pick on the mandolin than they are with a bow on a fiddle, but that's what provides the right kick to old-time dance music.

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## mythicfish

"my list " was represented by that "O-rish music and that hippie contra stuff in which barefoot sundressed longhaired girls with flowers in their hair dance in swarms like butterflies"  All said tongue in cheek with a mischevious smile. "

Add to this, the trend of barefoot, sundressed, long-haired MEN ... I kid you not.

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## harwilli55

Crikey Curt, how could I forget sundressed, long-haired hirsute men.....lol.

Paul, do you have any links to either Alan Jabour's writings or Tom Sauber. I googled both but could not find much beyond some mention in the National Folk Life Project. I am becoming fascinated with learning more about the diversity and speciation within "Old Time". As Paul Muad'dib said " Wheels within wheels with wheels". 

Part of my interest lays in how music was used, taught and learned. Especially in the isolation of communities that developed their own styles from hand me down tunes. How those tunes variated over time and geography seems fascinating. The origins of songs and tunes are also fascinating. Interpretation and stylistic differences, especially the bowing techniques that differentiated fiddlers.

I shall have to listen and work with the 3-2-2 to gain undertanding of that influence. Thanks for posting that.

Harlan

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## poymando

This book, Sounds of the South, has some really interesting essays:
http://www.dukeupress.edu/cgibin....tem=999
I'd also highly recommend any of Bill Malone's books on the history of country (old time!) music. They are scholarly, well researched and very readable.

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