# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  yellow locust/black locust tone wood ?

## 300win

Any of ya'll mandolin luthiers ever use yellow or black locust for the back and rims of a mando build ? Reason I was wondering is that a local guitar luthier Larry Dumas of Mount Airy, North Carolina has built some Martin D style guitar out of what we call down here yeller locust that are MONSTERS in tone and volume. Only thing I got against any of his guitars that I've played are the necks, way to thick and depth. If any of you ain't built one out of this wood might be worth a try. Another thing about the guitars that Mr. Dumas has built out of locust is that they are very nice looking, pretty grain pattern etc. I've never asked him about the working qualitys of the wood but plan to next time I see him. Also he uses black pine wood for the braces rather than spruce. Another oddity.

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## Spruce

I'm sure locust would make fine back and sides...
I've seen it in guitars....

And one of those locusts--I can't remember which one--glows in the dark under black lights...!

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## tree

Black locust (_Robinia pseudoacacia_) is the "yeller locust" of the Appalachians.  Spruce is correct - on p. 140 of Hoadley's book Understanding Wood, Table 14 is a partial list of North American woods exhibiting noteworthy fluorescence under UV light.  _Robinia_ is listed as fluorescing bright yellow.  How cool is that?

The biggest potential issue with _Robinia_ is finding one that isn't riddled with holes from locust borer.  Not an insurmountable problem, but something to consider.

Black locust is also probably the hottest burning firewood available.  The stuff is like nuclear reactor rods.  The Forest Service published a booklet (FS-466), it may be out of print by now, Important Forest Trees of the Eastern United States.  That booklet describes the wood of black locust as "very heavy, very hard, and exceedingly strong and stiff.  It has very high shock resistance, high nail-holding qualities, and good durability and decay resistance.  It is moderately low in shrinkage and turns well although it is generally difficult to work with hand tools."

I've never seen an instrument built of it, but I'd love to.

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## 300win

> Black locust (_Robinia pseudoacacia_) is the "yeller locust" of the Appalachians.  Spruce is correct - on p. 140 of Hoadley's book Understanding Wood, Table 14 is a partial list of North American woods exhibiting noteworthy fluorescence under UV light.  _Robinia_ is listed as fluorescing bright yellow.  How cool is that?
> 
> The biggest potential issue with _Robinia_ is finding one that isn't riddled with holes from locust borer.  Not an insurmountable problem, but something to consider.
> 
> Black locust is also probably the hottest burning firewood available.  The stuff is like nuclear reactor rods.  The Forest Service published a booklet (FS-466), it may be out of print by now, Important Forest Trees of the Eastern United States.  That booklet describes the wood of black locust as "very heavy, very hard, and exceedingly strong and stiff.  It has very high shock resistance, high nail-holding qualities, and good durability and decay resistance.  It is moderately low in shrinkage and turns well although it is generally difficult to work with hand tools."
> 
> I've never seen an instrument built of it, but I'd love to.


Yep. ol yeller locust is yeller even without a black light. Yep I know the qualities of it first hand. Have sawed and cut it since I was a youngin'. Driving a nail in it is almost as easy as driving a hard case nail in cement. And yes it will burn like Hades. Splits easy, one of the easiest splitting woods I've seen. Dense as iron too. I just was suprized to hear them guitars made out of it, they are awesome inj everyway. Down here where I live we ain't got any of the wood borers in locust. You go cut one and it is solid as it can be.

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## s1m0n

I've seen black locust growing from Ontario to Vancouver, although always as a landscape tree or its descendents. It's not yet escaped into the wild, but I've found it a very determined hedge-row infighter, so I don't doubt that it could.

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## sunburst

Clark, I have that booklet, but I can't find it right now.
Take a look at what they wrote about red spruce and see if you think there were and luthiers in the room when they were putting that booklet together!

I've had a lot of locust in my shop, but by far most of it has been for the shop wood stove. 
It taps just about like rosewood though it isn't as heavy, and I have a couple of back blanks worked up for mandolins but haven't used it for instruments yet. I've seen curly locust once or twice and I'd love to get my hands on some of that!

I got the idea of locust as a tonewood probably 25 or more years ago when my dad built a foot bridge with locust lumber. He made my mom a cutting board for the kitchen from a scrap, and I walked through the kitchen one day where the cutting board, by then stained from foods and tannins, was in the dish drainer, glossy with water. From the corner of my eye my mind detected rosewood(!) and I turned to look. The resemblance to rosewood was a surprise, and then I figured out that rosewoods are in the family _leguminosae_ along with locust, so my curiosity went up another notch.
I decided to find some locust big enough to build a guitar, but so far I haven't done it. Others have "beaten me to it" over the years and all reports are of good sounding guitars made from locust.

Simon, locust is a pioneer species in forest succession, meaning it is one of the first species to take over cleared land. It root-sprouts like crazy, but it doesn't compete particularly well in forest stands, so unless there is cleared land it is not likely to "escape into the wild" even if the climate is favorable. Around here it grows like a weed anywhere cleared land is abandoned or left to grow up (along with eastern redcedar).

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## billhay4

Locust fenceposts last forever almost. Very rot resistant.
Never thought of it as tonewood, but the idea is intriguing. It grows pretty large back in the Virginia mountains and has a variety of colors from reddish brown to the yellow previously mentioned.
Bill

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## Spruce

> It taps just about like rosewood...
> 
> From the corner of my eye my mind detected rosewood(!) and I turned to look. The resemblance to rosewood was a surprise, and then I figured out that rosewoods are in the family _leguminosae_ along with locust, so my curiosity went up another notch.


I didn't want to drag the "R" word into this, but I _do_ remember someone luthery-related saying that locust bore a close resemblance to Brazilian Rosewood in it's specs...
Near the top of the list, as I remember....

Might have been wishful hyperbole, but it _did_ stick in my mind all these years...

As far as the black-light deal goes, the World Forestry Center in Portland had a cool exhibit where they displayed all these chunks of wood under black light, and I remember locust looking _really_ cool...

Another 25 year old memory....   :Wink:

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## 300win

All I can say fellers is some of ya'll that builds mandolin ought to try it, if they turn out anything like Mr. Dumas guitars sound it would be a loud tone mandolin. Another thing about his guitars, they are really lightweight.

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## tree

> Clark, I have that booklet, but I can't find it right now.
> Take a look at what they wrote about red spruce and see if you think there were and luthiers in the room when they were putting that booklet together!


Doesn't look like it to me.  For some species or groups (the important  :Wink:  commercial ones) there's a composite photo of tangential, radial and transverse plane of the wood, and couple of paragraphs summarizing the technical properties and the uses.  Apparently the spruces didn't merit such ink.  This meager sentence is tacked on to the description of the red spruce tree: "The wood is used for lumber and pulpwood." 

But in all fairness, the booklet was copyrighted in 1968, and mine was printed in 1991.  I doubt if it was revised much, if any, in later printings.

If you want to see some really neat photos of the physiological structure of _Robinia_ wood, track down an arborist who has a copy of Dr. Alex Shigo's book, Tree Anatomy.  It's a coffee-table book with some beautiful photos taken under low magnification, high optical quality microscopes.

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## Paul Hostetter

I've used yellow locust for necks, and I'd use it again. I got it from a boatbuilding friend who uses it for keels, for which he felt it was unexcelled. It's not much to look at, really, but it sure is tough! I've restored two lutes and a harp-lute, all made of yellow locust, they were lovely instruments, though it was just used for necks and bowls. I would never liken it to BRW. More like oak, only tougher.

Yellow locust is a seriously weedy tree that has invaded California, growing wild all over Gold Country. It's also gotten completely out of control in southern France, where they good-naturedly call it acacia. It was originally imported from N. America as an ornamental! Not a good citizen, but at least a useful one at times. My friend Thierry's home in Dordogne has lovely floors and interior house trim all in yellow locust. Good firewood too.

Able, of Port Townsend. Keel and ribs of yellow locust:

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## MANNDOLINS

Black Locust is great for fence posts, firewood and I've used it for bridge plates on couple guitars...also great for dulling a chainsaw blade! :Frown:

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## Charles E.

Paul, now that's a pretty boat! My dad is a boat builder and I have often thought of instrument builders and boat builders as kindred spirits.

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## Paul Hostetter

Charles - I think so too. My father built boats and was an avid sailor. My old friend Bertram Levy built Able. It's a Lyle Hess cutter, and I was with Bertram, his wife Bobbie, and Lyle, on the maiden voyage. (What a party!) The yellow locust in her was actually cut from a huge tree that grew in PT, not far from Bertram's house. He always noticed it because it was such an enormous, grand specimen. Then one day, it was gone! The owners of the house wanted more sun, called the arborist, and off to the dump it went. Then off to the dump we went, in Bertram's '37 Dodge pickup, where we met a guy with a tractor who loaded big pieces and we took it back to his shop where he butchered it and incorporated the tree into the boat. Quite a production. I still have a couple of pieces of that tree, and plans for them.

Bertram was the mandolin player in the Hollow Rock String Band, if you remember them: Tommy and Bobbie Thompson, Alan Jabbour, and the indefatigable BJL. I don't think he's played mandolin since then, rather banjo, fiddle, concertina and bandoneon, but there's your mandatory mandolin content.

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## John Gardinsky

As the fellow who did the site prep for my house said " thems dirty trees".  I have probably a dozen Black Locusts that I can see from my house and they do drop a lot of debris. Their growth rate is relentless.  I personally like them except for the thorns.  Kinda shaped like something from Sleepy Hollow. Supposedly they can cause a chainsaw to throw a spark though I haven't witnessed it.  Probably someone cutting through a fence post staple told me that.  I am certain they would give a person's chisel a workout.  I have seen some locust with a little red in it on some recurve bow limbs. Might make a good bridge or fingerboard? It's cousin the Ky. Coffee Tree comes in much larger sizes.  Not sure how dense it is though in comparison.  John

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## John Bertotti

Back in the 60's my dad had a local sawyer cut a piece of Honey Locust. I was only abut three or four but I remember ti taking several guys to carry that chunk of work bench in. The sawyer said it was the hardest stuff he had cut took two of those old big round blades taller then me to cut it. I remember dad telling me it had a very high mineral content which was why it was so hard on the blades.

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## sunburst

> Supposedly they can cause a chainsaw to throw a spark though I haven't witnessed it.


I've done it, it doesn't take a staple, a chainsaw will throw sparks sawing locust. It's not really that bad on chisels though, it works pretty well with hand and power tools.

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## John Bertotti

So the stuff we knew as Honey Locust in iowa, what is it, is it really honey locust or is that just a regional name for it?

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## sunburst

Black locust = _Robinia pseudoacacia_
Honeylocust = _Gleditsia triacanthos_

They're different trees, both grow native around here in central Virginia. The thorns of honeylocust are pretty spectacular!

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## John Arnold

> Might make a good bridge or fingerboard?


It makes a better bridge or bridgeplate than fingerboard. The texture is not all that inviting for a fingerboard, but probably equivalent to porous specimens of Indian rosewood. 
I think the tap tone is closer to rosewood than any other domestic wood, with the possible exception of Osage orange. 
BL is one wood that I have used from the beginning of my guitar making. It is one of the stiffest (if not the stiffest) domestic woods. I first exploited its stiffness by using it for back braces and the top cross brace. It makes great bridgeplates, being harder and stiffer than maple, but not much denser. I have also used it for neck reinforcements, in lieu of ebony. One of my early guitars had a BL four-piece back, cut from a 4 X 4 that my brother fished out of the Nolichucky river. 
After I obtained my resaw in 1990, I began sawing larger BL logs that would make two-piece QS guitar backs. Since then I have built two locust guitars, both of which were stellar. One was built for MerleFest, and as Doc Watson played it, he related how he had made a porch swing from BL. 
I am not that familiar with the locust borer, but the pests I have found in the heart of the larger local trees appear to be black ants. The 'chambers' consist of holes about 1/4" in diameter, and are usually restricted to the stump.

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j. condino

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## John Bertotti

Sunburst thanks! As to the thorns I steped on them once. A whole world of hurt I had never experienced as a kid till that point. I have even seen them puncture tires. Wish I could find a source to buy some Locust around here.

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## Jerry Haynes

I have built 3 mandos with locust back and sides.  Two were with Honey Locust,  not sure just what locust I used on the other.  Not really any difference than working with maple.    www.mountaindrive.webs.net  ,   click on mandolins,  last pic is honey.   Jerry

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## tree

Here's a reference for the (black) locust borer:  http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/fi...ust/locust.htm

Here's one for the common Honeylocust (not black locust) tree: http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=GLTR

I have a couple of wide (10 or 11 inch) honeylocust boards that were given to me by a friend who had part of his new house floored with them.  They're mostly a beautiful reddish brown with some light sapwood, but these pieces were passed over for flooring because of various defects.  Because of that, it'll be a bit of a challenge to work out the best use of them, but I'm not complaining - that'll be good mental exercise.

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## Paul Hostetter

> Black locust = _Robinia pseudoacacia_
> Honeylocust = _Gleditsia triacanthos_
> 
> They're different trees, both grow native around here in central Virginia. The thorns of honeylocust are pretty spectacular!


Twice blessed! I've lost lots of blood to the shorter thorns on the black (AKA yellow) locust. Robinia takes its name from a Frenchman named Jean Robin who imported that tree to France in 1601! No wonder it's everywhere over there. I guess the honey and the timber make it worth it. Interesting that the honeylocust is _not_ a nectar source for bees. Even more interesting that two trees with such similar qualities, both in the pea family, are of differing genii.

I agree it wouldn't make a great board, though I have made good boards from osage orange. They look odd at first, but the stuff is up to that task.

Clark, your link led nowhere near mandolins. Can you either post the photo or give a more specific link? I'd love to see what you did there.

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## tree

> Clark, your link led nowhere near mandolins. Can you either post the photo or give a more specific link? I'd love to see what you did there.


That would be correct - the first link should have led to a fact sheet on a beetle (locust borer) and the second to a reference page on the Honeylocust tree.  Sorry for the confusion, I think the bug is rather striking (it is in person, anyway) and since this thread was beginning to include a species other than _Robinia_, I thought the link to the _Gleditsia_ info might be worthwhile - there's a photo of the thorns there.

I've done nothing yet with the _Gleditsia_ boards.  Don't even have a photo to share, but maybe I can remember to try to shoot one next week when I'm home.

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## Paul Hostetter

Clark - sorry, I meant to direct that, not to you, but to Jerry Haynes who pointed us to:




> www.mountaindrive.webs.net , click on mandolins, last pic is honey.


Trouble:



More trouble:

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## Jerry Haynes

Mountaindrive.webs.com    sorry bout that.     Jerry

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## John Arnold

> Interesting that the honeylocust is not a nectar source for bees.


The pulp in the seed pods is edible and very sweet tasting. I learned that fact from an oldtimer. Yes, I have tried it (but don't start calling me Bear Grills).

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## s1m0n

> Simon, locust is a pioneer species in forest succession, meaning it is one of the first species to take over cleared land. It root-sprouts like crazy, but it doesn't compete particularly well in forest stands, so unless there is cleared land it is not likely to "escape into the wild" even if the climate is favorable. Around here it grows like a weed anywhere cleared land is abandoned or left to grow up (along with eastern redcedar).


I'm sure that's the case in Virginia, but Canada has very little of what we call Carolinian forest. Black Locust isn't native to the great lakes and boreal forests. Here it's classified as an invasive alien species, although one that's reasonably benign.

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## Paul Hostetter

Perhaps it's considered benign because it's so cold up there? The root sprout thing is intense here in California. 

I never heard the term "Carolinian forest" before. Being from Detroit, I feel a little sheepish about that. I'm sure it doesn’t stop at the straits.

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## s1m0n

> Perhaps it's considered benign because it's so cold up there? The root sprout thing is intense here in California.


It's not really about how well it grows, but because it doesn't appear to be displacing any native species. Invasive species which do those things are considered more of a threat. As an example, purple loosetrife (an alien species introduced from Europe as a garden flower) is spreading into wetlands, where it crowds out the native cattails. Cattails are an important part of wetlands ecology; They're a major food item for a range of animals, and they're the preferred nesting site for redwing blackbirds, and others. This makes loosestrife a much more damaging invader, and no doubt the gummints' list reflects the fact. Locust doesn't do that much damage, so they're classed as more benign.





> I never heard the term "Carolinian forest" before. Being from Detroit, I feel a little sheepish about that. I'm sure it doesn’t stop at the straits.


The wikipedia link says that the term is more frequently used in Canada, but that's likely because we have several different kinds of forest and we need to distinguish between them. In the USA, practically the entire eastern seaboard is (or was) CF from the Canadian border to the beginning of the southern mangrove swamp zone and from the atlantic until the prairie begins.

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## surfnut

Hey Paul is "black locust" the yellow acacia stuff on Highway 17 near Pasatiempo before the fishook, that stuff really gets my allergies going in Feb.  Lots of that around here.

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## Paul Hostetter

> Hey Paul is "black locust" the yellow acacia stuff on Highway 17 near Pasatiempo before the fishook, that stuff really gets my allergies going in Feb.  Lots of that around here.


There sure is a lot of that, but it's not the same tree at all. Thank goodness. Our local acacia (also in the pea family) Blackwood Acacia, AKA _Acacia melanoxylon_, is from Australia. A landscape item that got away. 

And by the way, the yellow flowers do not cause allergies. Everyone thinks they do, but in fact, the acacias flower at the same time as redwoods, which really do cause allergies. Everyone blames the acacias, because they can see and smell them (and no one sees the redwoods spewing pollen), but the blame is misplaced.  

FWIW, the local acacia is very closely related to koa and some of the local trees have fabulous figureindistinguishable from good koaand make great instruments. 

If you want to see the other (evil!) locust, look at the trees along High Street going up to the main entrance of UCSC, especially the ones right at the intersection of Bay and High, by the Barn Theater, where the UC Farm and Garden folks set up their produce standthat's black locust.

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## Michael Gowell

My 17-ft custom built rowing dory has black locust frames...a dory guy would call it "cedar (planks) over black locust" rather than the more common "pine over oak."  Finestkind, as they say.  The boatbuilder just called a small rural mill willing to custom cut and the mill guy hustled the log from one of the loggers who sell to him.  I remember hearing the joke at the time that farmers preferred black locust over granite for fenceposts because it would generally outlast the granite by a dozen years.

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## surfnut

Thanks Paul I know the trees you are talking about. I saw the yellow flowers at the top of the page along with the locust borer and wondered if there were two different phases of black locust. Everybody I know whine about the yellow acacia and their allergies. Will it be PC ,around here, to complain about redwood allergies?

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## Paul Hostetter

I feel sort of guilty spilling the beans (so to speak) about redwood pollen allergies, since I don't think anyone would miss the acacias if they all vanished overnight. But if they did, how could they blame them anymore when they're sneezing and dripping? I love redwoods, and forgive them.

Our "local" locust has pale flowers, more white than yellow, which are like little bowls. When it rains during the flowering season, those bowls fill up and their weight often pulls branches down and snaps them off.

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## big smiley guy

I've never seen locust used for anything aesthetic down here in the South.  Where I'm from it used to be the common wood used in construction of footings and foundations because of its slow rate of decay.  My grandfather used to say that was all it was really good for.

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## buddyellis

> Mountaindrive.webs.com    sorry bout that.     Jerry


 Here's the pic

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## Paul Hostetter

Lush!

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## Jerry Haynes

Thanks Buddy for posting the locust pic,   I can build um,  but can't post a picture.     Jerry

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## DerTiefster

An aside...
When we lived in the S.F. Bay Area, driving by the yellow plants in the spring would bring tears and sneezes to my wife almost immediately.  Close the car windows and the problem was not as acute, but it was strongly correlated with the yellow acacia blossoms.  I'd only think your study authors were correct if they could show me that acacias prefer sites which experience a plume of redwood pollen during the springtime.  She never had problems which were associated as strongly with meeting up face to face with actual redwoods.  Just input for the thought machine.

This isn't intended to start up an internal allergen identification sub-thread within this thread, and I hope that doesn't happen.

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