# Octaves, Zouks, Citterns, Tenors and Electrics > CBOM >  Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

## Huda

Any thoughts on the differences between the Greek and Irish Bouzoukis?

I know about the obvious differences like the longer scale and the bowl-back for the Greek Bouzouki. But what about the more subtle differences? How is the TONE different? 

Thanks!

----------


## kmmando

I don't think they compare at all, actually. The Greek instrument, which is, after all the original one, of some 100 years of building, has a bright, brilliant, shimmering, light sound, and, of course there are many variations on the theme. 3 course (6 stringers) are the oldest form of the larger bodied Greek instrument, and are played in a very different rhythmic way to the more modern 8 stringers, which are a 1950's development, and tend to be used as a lead instrument. They are also tuned differently, the 4 course one also having octave strings, and the Greek makers are very particular about using Greek bouzouki strings, as I found out. They are also bowl backed, flat topped, built lightly of European (or Australian) woods, pretty long scale length, often un-truss rodded, and are lined internally with a reflective metal foil. The detailed inlay on the bodies tends to be done into a thin black plastic plate, which is then checked into the soundboard, and this removal of wood may add to the tone. Perhaps our Greek correspondent can amplify on the subject, as I have a lot to learn from those who really know - the Greeks themselves. They are beautiful instruments.

The modern so called Irish bouzouki is really nothing like this at all! A cousin, maybe, but as different as an A4 is from an Embergher.

The best way to compare them is to try and find a shop that sells both and sit down and try both types. You will find them to be rather different, in my opinion, but both equally valid. Finding Greek ones to try is not easy, but just go to Greece for a holiday and try some. I ended up wih two crackers that way, and had great holidays whilst there. 

Incidentally, I completely retuned mine to fifths, so that I could actually play the thing, just to muddy the waters further! And I mainly use it for melody, rather than strumming chordally, which may be the main use of the Irishy bouzouki?

all the best # #Kevin Macleod

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## dave17120

I think Kevin is right. I have both, but play mainly the Irish (as I made it) You could really only compare if they were tuned the same and then used to do the same job..... then you're down to, 'how does this make of Irish bouzouki sound as against that one'. Personal preference?!
Briefly I play more melody, so that may be why I play the shorter Irish. Decide what you want to do with it, then pick one that you like the sound of.
Dave

----------


## Keith Miller

Having played both types I must say I prefer the Greek but again its all a matter of taste Irish music played on Greek zouk sounds even better to my ears than on an "Irish" Listen to Kevin's CDs both he and Alec Finn play Greek zouks they are the reason I am hooked on bouzouki now, even down to buying Greek Rebetica CDs. You have a lot to answer for Kevin ! 

Keith

----------


## kmmando

Well, when I heard Alec in 1976, on the John Peel show, his sound utterly hooked me, so it's a flowing thread of inspiration! However, I'm delighted your hooked, and fully understand the attraction of the Greek bouzouki. I don't actually own an Irish bouzouki at all, and the only thing I have that is roughly in that zone is my Brazilian rosewood bodied Sobell Octave Mandolin, but Stefan's instrument owe a lot to his earlier interest in the European cittern and an early Martin guitar and there are echoes of the shape of the Portuguese gittara in his instruments too. It's actually a great and weighty honour to inspire someone to try an instrument, I feel, and in many ways, it is the key point about music and song - when you feel moved to try something as wonderful as making music, it is one of the great moments in life. I love it!

Cheers Kevin

----------


## BradB

I'm not even sure exactly what constitutes an "Irish" bouzouki. I usually think of them as a flat-top, flat-back instrument. But the Sobells are carved top instruments and are considered by many as the grail for bouzoukis & citterns. The flat and carved instruments are as different from each other as the Greek bouzoukis are different from either one.

BB

----------


## Paul Kotapish

Here's a little article I did for _Acoustic Guitar_ magazine a few years back about the history and evoloution of the bouzouki from its Turkish and Greek roots through the many flatbacked and carved variations now available. Photos, resources, links, etc.

Read the story here.

The piece was edited to fit into a magazine feature format, but there's enough material on the subject out there for a fat book.

----------


## steve V. johnson

Paul, 

Thanks for posting that link! I saw that article when it came out, and I have xeroxes of it in the file cabinet. It should be 'required reading' for all CBOM fans! &lt;GG&gt;

Many thanks,

stv

----------


## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"... I completely retuned mine to fifths..."

Despite being "the Greek correspondent"-in-residence at the Café  I am writing to ask, rather than to answer a question. So, Kevin... in _fifths_, you say? Do you mean CGDA or GDAE?

My curiosity has been whether a Greek bouzouki perhaps one with a reinforced/rebraced top#would be able to sustain the pressure of a (double-course) CGDA-tuned set of strings, becoming _ipso facto_ a mandocello. Now, THAT I would be interested to explore! 

I do have my misgivings, though... one would need to be VERY cautious with choice of strings, gauges, etc. Greek bouzoukis, their soundboards being cant-less, might sink, buckle under pressure, horribly and irreparably.  

But, hey, dreaming can't hurt#or CAN it?  

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## chinatogalway

Well both Andy Irvine and Donal Lunny started out on Greek bouzoukis, a few photos of them on stage as late as 1979 still playing the greek version. Planxty 1979

Andy solo on greek zouk

Donal Lunny on Greek Zouk 1973

The Abnet bouzouki is the middle ground, with a 3 piece dished back.....wonderful !

Abnet 3 piece dihed back

Kieron

----------


## kmmando

"So, Kevin... in fifths, you say? Do you mean CGDA or GDAE?
"

GDAE, top string E, and gauges are about 38 28 16 10, and in pairs not octaves, nice and light. Both have had reproduction bridges built by expert Scottish Luthier Jimmy Moon to take piezo strips under the saddle, as the originals are too narrow. My only comment would be the lack of serious cases for bouzoukis - the flimsy £40 plastic ones the give you are awful.

The tops are holding up fine, the 6 course one is by Victor Dekavallas in Thessaloniki, the 8 string by Bobby Kleftoyannis in Athens. They are superb instruments, and I play them a lot, and adore the sound.

best wishes kevin

----------


## kmmando

Anyone got a web link for Dekavallas bouzouki maker in Thessaloniki in Greece?

----------


## DavidKOS

> I don't think they compare at all, actually. The Greek instrument, which is, after all the original one, of some 100 years of building, has a bright, brilliant, shimmering, light sound, and, of course there are many variations on the theme. 3 course (6 stringers) are the oldest form of the larger bodied Greek instrument, and are played in a very different rhythmic way to the more modern 8 stringers, which are a 1950's development, and tend to be used as a lead instrument. They are also tuned differently, the 4 course one also having octave strings, and the Greek makers are very particular about using Greek bouzouki strings, as I found out. They are also bowl backed, flat topped, built lightly of European (or Australian) woods, pretty long scale length, often un-truss rodded, and are lined internally with a reflective metal foil. The detailed inlay on the bodies tends to be done into a thin black plastic plate, which is then checked into the soundboard, and this removal of wood may add to the tone. Perhaps our Greek correspondent can amplify on the subject, as I have a lot to learn from those who really know - the Greeks themselves. They are beautiful instruments.
> 
> The modern so called Irish bouzouki is really nothing like this at all! A cousin, maybe, but as different as an A4 is from an Embergher.


Not a bad description of the Greek bouzouki! I've been playing Greek tetrachordo bouzouki since I was a teenager, also play trichordo and baglama, but do NOT play Celtic music nor Irish Bouzouki, although I sold them at a music store for years.

Here's a way I've explained it:


The Greek instrument is a lead instrument in a type of Middle Eastern music, the varieties of Greek music like Rebetiko, Laika, Syrtaki, etc. where it's twangy sound is ideal. It's also played with a lot of ornamentation that goes with the melodic style. The two most common versions are the trichordo tuned DAD and the tetrachordo tuned CFAD.

The Irish/Celtic instrument was re-designed to give a strong low end presence, beefed up the body design to make a less twangy, more "solid" tone, and although is used as a melodic instrument found its first great use as a backup instrument. Typical tunings are GDAD, ADAD, GDAE, etc. - and can even have a lower 5th course too sometimes.

Frankly I think the term "bouzouki" should be reserved for the Greek version, and use another term to designate the "Irish" model - I mean, why didn't "blarge" catch on? But I guess that issue's dead, and the name has to do double duty.

----------

Nick Gellie

----------


## DavidKOS

> Well both Andy Irvine and Donal Lunny started out on Greek bouzoukis, a few photos of them on stage as late as 1979 still playing the greek version. 
> Kieron



Yup, that's what I heard too, that's how it began.

I think we owe a lot of both of them in terms of developing the style.

----------


## Mike Anderson

> Anyone got a web link for Dekavallas bouzouki maker in Thessaloniki in Greece?


You bet I do: http://dekavalas.gr/.  :Smile:

----------

DavidKOS, 

kmmando

----------


## Nick Gellie

I would be careful about saying that Irish bouzoukis all have flat tops.  Some are made with an induced arch (i.e. Graham McDonald or Bob Adams of Phil Crump).  The induced arch makes the instrument more responsive and makes it project better.  In fact the induced arch tops sound not too different from a carved top bouzouki (Sobell) .  In some ways either a carved or arch top on an irish bouzouki is one of the differences compared to a flat-top Greek bouzouki.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## DavidKOS

> In some ways either a carved or arch top on an irish bouzouki is one of the differences compared to a flat-top Greek bouzouki.


Good point there, although the whole design of the staved bowl instrument from Greece is so different from the much heavier built Irish versions that there is much more to it than just the type of top.

----------


## Colin Lindsay

> I'm not even sure exactly what constitutes an "Irish" bouzouki. I usually think of them as a flat-top, flat-back instrument. But the Sobells are carved top instruments and are considered by many as the grail for bouzoukis & citterns. The flat and carved instruments are as different from each other as the Greek bouzoukis are different from either one.
> 
> BB


I prefer to call mine a flat-back bouzouki or European bouzouki; I always saw Johnny Moynihans model as a variant, not a new instrument in its own right.
I remember the round back one I played in the early 80s slipped about everywhere on stage and was the very devil to hold and play at the same time, so the shape certainly makes a difference. Mine has more bass than those of the Greek musicians I played with recently; its also unison strung so less treble.

----------


## zoukboy

> Frankly I think the term "bouzouki" should be reserved for the Greek version, and use another term to designate the "Irish" model - I mean, why didn't "blarge" catch on? But I guess that issue's dead, and the name has to do double duty.


So... should we give "guitar" back to the Spanish? or go even further and give the word's Persian root "-tar" back to Iran?  ;-)

And the root of "bouzouki" is a Turkish word, coming from the term _bozuk düzen_.

I think "blarge" didn't catch on because it made less sense than "bouzouki" or "Irish bouzouki," and besides, it was said as a joke, a contraction of "bouzouki + large" for the extra large body 10 string Irish bouzouki made by Andy Manson for Dónal Lunny in the late 70s (IIRC).

----------


## DavidKOS

> So... should we give "guitar" back to the Spanish? or go even further and give the word's Persian root "-tar" back to Iran?  ;-)
> 
> And the root of "bouzouki" is a Turkish word, coming from the term _bozuk düzen_.
> 
> I think "blarge" didn't catch on because it made less sense than "bouzouki" or "Irish bouzouki," and besides, it was said as a joke, a contraction of "bouzouki + large" for the extra large body 10 string Irish bouzouki made by Andy Manson for Dónal Lunny in the late 70s (IIRC).


Not an easy issue, eh? Instrument nomenclature can be silly....is that tambor a drum or a lute? 

I think I was also making a bit of a joke, knowing how the name "blarge" came about.

----------


## Colin Lindsay

> So... should we give "guitar" back to the Spanish? or go even further and give the word's Persian root "-tar" back to Iran?  ;-)
> 
> And the root of "bouzouki" is a Turkish word, coming from the term _bozuk düzen_.


I don’t think the OP advocated not allowing people to use the name, or returning the name to the country of origin; it’s just that if the instrument no longer resembles the thing it is named for and has evolved, then an evolved name might be more apt?
Back in the 1970s everyone was playing the bl**dy things, you could walk into a music shop and buy one off the shelf - which amazingly you can’t do now…  :Smile:

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Nick Gellie

Basically the term Irish Bouzouki is here to stay whether we like it or not.  I am in agreement with Roger that it is a valid name for an instrument that evolved from the Greek Bouzouki.  Some of the Irish bouzoukis don't sound that much different to a Greek Bouzouki, especially when played, amplified, and equalised in a band setting.

I have had and played both.  I actually prefer the Irish Bouzouki to the Greek Bouzouki because of its tone and playability. The bowl back might offer some slight tonal differences but talking to Bob Abrams the other day I am convinced that the top soundboard's thickness, graduations and bracing play a major role in its tone.  There would be of course differences there between the two different types of bouzoukis in the latter respects.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## DavidKOS

> I have had and played both.  I actually prefer the Irish Bouzouki to the Greek Bouzouki because of its tone and playability. .


I'm curious, are you playing Greek music or something else?  Because I can't see how an Irish instrument would be better for Greek music....but I can understand it if you are playing Celtic music or some other non-Greek music.

I play Greek and other Middle eastern music on my bouzouki, not irish tunes or such, so perhaps we are not playing the same repertoire.

----------


## zoukboy

For the past several years I have been on a quest to get an instrument that would sound like a cross between an Irish and Greek bouzouki because in addition to playing a lot of melody in Irish traditional music I also play Greek and other Balkan music. I wanted the attack and response of the Greek instrument without sacrificing the bass response of the larger bodied Irish bouzouki. This led me to the original Irish bouzouki made by Peter Abnett. I considered ordering one from him after exchanging emails it seemed  he was uninterested in using the woods that I wanted, and the fact that he builds without an adjustable truss rod made me nervous, not to mention the fact that the instrument would be coming from England to New Mexico, an abrupt climate change. 

Then I met Herb Taylor at a house concert I was doing in Denver and was taken with his work. He made a very nice raffle instrument for ZoukFest in 2007 and I ran the idea of a staved-back bouzouki by him - he was game and I got the instrument in 2008. It had a bigger, boomier bass than I wanted so he made another, smaller (13" instead of 15") bodied one in 2011 and that did the trick. It is nearly optimal for my playing but now that he has developed the neck-through design (see the prototype here in the MC classifieds) I will be getting a new, small bodied, staved back, neck-through soon.

This approach may not be for everybody, but after decades of playing several Sobells and Stephen O. Smith instruments I was looking for a different sound, one that would hearken back to the early years of the bouzouki in Irish music and away from the more guitaristic sounds that many instruments have. Instead of trying to distance the instrument from its historical connection to the Greek instrument I wanted to strengthen it. YMMV, NFI, etc.

----------

DavidKOS, 

Nick Gellie

----------


## DavidKOS

> For the past several years I have been on a quest to get an instrument that would sound like a cross between an Irish and Greek bouzouki because in addition to playing a lot of melody in Irish traditional music I also play Greek and other Balkan music. I wanted the attack and response of the Greek instrument without sacrificing the bass response of the larger bodied Irish bouzouki. This led me to the original Irish bouzouki made by Peter Abnett.


Man, that's tough, to get an instrument that will sound good on all of those musical styles. It sounds like you have a good handle on it, though.

So not only Greek and Irish bouzouki style but also Bulgarian tambura music too! Cool.

----------

zoukboy

----------


## garryireland

Ive been thinking about getting a greek zouk strung gdad. Itsamazing the difference in price copared to our "Irish" zouks.

----------


## Rob Zamites

> Ive been thinking about getting a greek zouk strung gdad. Itsamazing the difference in price copared to our "Irish" zouks.


Don't you still have your APC? What's wrong with that one?  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Nick Gellie

> I'm curious, are you playing Greek music or something else?  Because I can't see how an Irish instrument would be better for Greek music....but I can understand it if you are playing Celtic music or some other non-Greek music.
> 
> I play Greek and other Middle eastern music on my bouzouki, not irish tunes or such, so perhaps we are not playing the same repertoire.


I actually play both Celtic and Balkan music, particularly Balkan and Macedonian music.

Akin to Roger I have been on a similar quest to find a 'flat backed' Irish Bouzouki that could sound like a cross between a Greek and an Irish Bouzouki and have less of a guitar sound.  I think Roger is on to it in designing a small bodied staved back instrument.  I had an Abnett 5-course octave mandolin recently that had a nice top end like a Greek Bouzouki but the bottom end was too boomy and bassy for me.  It was had a short scale (20.5").  I prefer the tone of a longer scale flat backed bouzouki.  It also made its way from Europe to Australia as well and held up well in our dry Australian climate.  It is now in the hands of another Australian who lives in Sydney and loves it.

In another thread on CBOM Bob Abram's 5 course Irish Bouzouki played by Carol Coronis has a great sound when she sings Greek songs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6niWkm1rEs).  She tunes it to DAEAE but sometimes DADAD.  I think that the tuning she uses also plays a part in the sound she is getting from her instrument.  I also find that even a top end Greek bouzouki can sound a bit raw and metallic particularly when amplified.

I have also had conversations with Joe Foley recently.  He makes his bouzoukis to sound like those of the early days of Planxty.  Again he achieves this with a small bodied flat backed Irish Bouzouki.  He is still passionate about his instruments.  I think that that is great after so many years building Irish Bouzoukis.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## zoukboy

> Ive been thinking about getting a greek zouk strung gdad. Itsamazing the difference in price copared to our "Irish" zouks.


Garry:

I have a friend who has done this and it sounds very good (it's a high quality Greek tetrachordo). The main difference is the sound of the low G course is not nearly as substantial as on most Irish style zouks.

----------


## Nick Gellie

This K.Yairi Irish Bouzouki typifies the sound of the jangly 'Planxty' Style Irish Bouzouki, here played by Donnal Lunny:




There is not too much bass coming through.  It has a nice bass without too much boominess characteristic of a lot of Irish Bouzoukis made these days.  Notice that it too has a small body.  BTW the back and sides are made from Ovangkol tonewood, which is used in Taylor Guitars (http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars...woods/ovangkol).  It also is a sustainably produced tonewood.

----------


## garryireland

> Don't you still have your APC? What's wrong with thadi ht one?


i had to sell all my instruments...

----------


## Nick Gellie

Garry,

What happened - did you lose your job or take on a mortgage? Did you sell them all?

Where are you now in your quest for a bouzouki? Are you tending to an Irish or a Greek bouzouki?

----------


## DavidKOS

> I also find that even a top end Greek bouzouki can sound a bit raw and metallic particularly when amplified.
> 
> I have also had conversations with Joe Foley recently.  He makes his bouzoukis to sound like those of the early days of Planxty.  Again he achieves this with a small bodied flat backed Irish Bouzouki.  He is still passionate about his instruments.  I think that that is great after so many years building Irish Bouzoukis.


Foley is a fine maker, judging from the handful of his instruments I have played.

"even a top end Greek bouzouki can sound a bit raw and metallic"

That's part of the instrument, and to me a big part of what the typical Irish maker is trying to avoid.

Thanks for your insights.

----------


## garryireland

> Garry,
> 
> What happened - did you lose your job or take on a mortgage? Did you sell them all?
> 
> Where are you now in your quest for a bouzouki? Are you tending to an Irish or a Greek bouzouki?


Work has gone sideways and the kids had to have a christmas

----------


## Mike Anderson

> Work has gone sideways and the kids had to have a christmas


Oh damn it all, so sorry to hear that - not the kids having Christmas, I am in the same boat, but the work. Have had to sell many instruments in the past myself, so I relate. That's why I could never have ordered the Andy Irvine books and DVD for myself, but am so grateful my brother and wife got them for me. 

Only one thing to do eh? Get something that pays the bills and hopefully lets you save for a good instrument or two. That's my resolution for 2015. Just glad I have my TC and my bodhran. And if you want something bespoke instead of a used instrument do think about Foley when the time comes Garry - he's in Dublin (no shipping or duty or any of that crap), you could meet the man and tell him exactly what you want. And you'd have a lifetime instrument of great quality and beauty and playability. So I hear anyway.  :Smile:  Good luck man!

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

> Foley is a fine maker, judging from the handful of his instruments I have played.
> 
> "even a top end Greek bouzouki can sound a bit raw and metallic"
> 
> That's part of the instrument, and to me a big part of what the typical Irish maker is trying to avoid.
> 
> Thanks for your insights.


Actually it's not what the Irish makers used to avoid.  Roger's zouk is the closest to a Greek zouk tuned GGDDAADD and with unison strings that I've heard - just like the older zouks Andy and Donal used to play.  Even Joe Foley's modern zouks have that almost no break angle and little downward pressure on the bridge like a Greek zouk which seem to accentate the jangly sound.
The trend here in the USA is to go for shorter scale lengths, heavier strings, big break angle, serious pressure on bridge and this changes the sound completely - but it still sounds great.  If I wanted a "Lunney" sound I'd go for a Greek zouk, an Andy Manson, a Peter Abnett, a Joe Foley, or a Herb Taylor.  I'd be looking at a min of 24" and a max of 27", almost no break angle, and light strings.

----------

Nick Gellie

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

Joe Foley's zouks are in big demand and are not inexpensive, whether bought in the US or in Ireland - but they are well worth the price.  Easiest way to get hold of Joe is to buy him a pint in O'Donoghue's , Merrion Row, on a Sunday night where he leads an ITM Session...

----------

Mike Anderson, 

Nick Gellie

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

Thi sis a flatback zouk made by Dio Dinos - low break angle, long scale length (26"), jangly sound.  Dio Dinos also made Alec Finns guitar and bowlback zouk.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## DavidKOS

> The trend here in the USA is to go for shorter scale lengths, heavier strings, big break angle, serious pressure on bridge and this changes the sound completely - but it still sounds great.


That must be what I've heard more often for quite a while now.

And yes, Foley instruments are reasonable in price for what they are.

----------


## DavidKOS

> Thi sis a flatback zouk made by Dio Dinos - low break angle, long scale length (26"), jangly sound.  Dio Dinos also made Alec Finns guitar and bowlback zouk.


Even the Saavas pickup!

----------


## Nick Gellie

Eddie, What is the break angle used on the Dio Dinos and Foley instruments?

It seems that most of the members who have posted on this thread prefer the jangly sound of the Greek bouzouki and ones made by Joe Foley to the more bottom end sound produced by most American instrument bouzouki makers.  How did that come about I wonder?

Maybe they were responding to the requests from guitar players to make a bouzouki sound more like guitar (i.e a smoother more rounded response).

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

> Eddie, What is the break angle used on the Dio Dinos and Foley instruments?
> 
> It seems that most of the members who have posted on this thread prefer the jangly sound of the Greek bouzouki and ones made by Joe Foley to the more bottom end sound produced by most American instrument bouzouki makers.  How did that come about I wonder?
> 
> Maybe they were responding to the requests from guitar players to make a bouzouki sound more like guitar (i.e a smoother more rounded response).


The neck angle on the body appears to be straight and they have a low bridge.
The first short-scale zouk I saw was Tim O'Brien's Giacomel and as he tuned it GGDDAAEE it was possibly the first OM...

----------


## Nick Gellie

There is one thing that is common with the Irish Bouzoukis (i.e. Foley, Yairi) and Greek Bouzoukis is that they have slim long necks and narrow nuts (approx. 34 mm).  A lot of other bouzoukis are made with chunkier necks.  According to Jeo Foley, you need a slim neck with narrow neck so that you can move around on the fingerboard.  The same would go for a Greek Bouzouki.

----------


## Colin Lindsay

> The first short-scale zouk I saw was Tim O'Brien's Giacomel and as he tuned it GGDDAAEE it was possibly the first OM...


Arent we going full circle here? Irish musicians take a greek bouzouki with the longer scale and replicate it using a cittern body and a longer neck. They call it the Irish bouzouki. They then shorten the neck to practically standard OM and tune it GDAE but call it the short-scale Irish bouzouki.. next theyll widen and flare the body, go for six strings tuned EGBDAE and call it the Irish guitar  :Smile:

----------

DavidKOS, 

John Kelly

----------


## Nick Gellie

I agree Colin - we have come full circle.  My opinion is that the guitar shape has influenced the emergence of GOMs because it is comfortable to play standing up.  I had a Graham McDonald GOM years ago.  It was fashionable to have one then and now I suppose.  I am not mad keen on the guitar sound that comes from such instruments although Graham McDonald reckons he can make a GOM have more of the bouzouki sound through careful construction, bracing, woods used, etc..  

The Sobell GOM suits Andy Irvine in his role as a solo artist.  In his days with Planxty he had Donnal Lunny do all that backing work on the Irish Bouzouki to create that jangly sound with the sound of two instruments.  Andy Irvine commented on one of his videos that he had to redo the backing when going solo because he longer had the backing of the 'boys' helping him out.  When I hear more modern versions of the Irish Bouzouki being played, they do not do much for me. In a way I have gone full circle back to the original Lunny sound.  It is wonderful to talk to Joe Foley about it.  I love the way he said in his irish accent ' I love seeing players knocking the sparks off a bouzouki when they first get their hands on it'.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Nick Gellie

> Actually it's not what the Irish makers used to avoid.  Roger's zouk is the closest to a Greek zouk tuned GGDDAADD and with unison strings that I've heard - just like the older zouks Andy and Donal used to play.  Even Joe Foley's modern zouks have that almost no break angle and little downward pressure on the bridge like a Greek zouk which seem to accentate the jangly sound.
> The trend here in the USA is to go for shorter scale lengths, heavier strings, big break angle, serious pressure on bridge and this changes the sound completely - but it still sounds great.  If I wanted a "Lunney" sound I'd go for a Greek zouk, an Andy Manson, a Peter Abnett, a Joe Foley, or a Herb Taylor.  I'd be looking at a min of 24" and a max of 27", almost no break angle, and light strings.


I think Donal Lunny's K.Yairi Irish Bouzouki is closer to the 'Lunny' sound than the Herb Taylor prototype Irish Bouzouki.  For me there is still quite a lot of bottom end in the Herb Taylor Irish Bouzouki prototype that Roger referred to, based on the sound clip I listened to on Herb Taylor's website.

----------


## Francis J

Fascinating to hear comments about the "Donal Lunny sound" as if it has arrived someplace and remained static for ever, The video clips used to illustrate the sound are poor recordings using a camera mic, and picking up some of the PA reverberation in a church.  In a music career spanning more than forty years a musician of Donal Lunny's status would have owned and played several dozen instruments, All having the same sound???  I think I detect a small portion of size-envy here! Spoken in my Irish accent.

----------


## garryireland

> Fascinating to hear comments about the "Donal Lunny sound" as if it has arrived someplace and remained static for ever, The video clips used to illustrate the sound are poor recordings using a camera mic, and picking up some of the PA reverberation in a church.  In a music career spanning more than forty years a musician of Donal Lunny's status would have owned and played several dozen instruments, All having the same sound???  I think I detect a small portion of size-envy here! Spoken in my Irish accent.


I suppose the point being made is Donal has always had small body zouks, aside fron that Blarge of course.  I personally don't like that jangly sound and prefer an arch top or back.  Since you are only up the road from me we should have a session!

----------


## Nick Gellie

There are some other video clips that better illustrate the sound of Donal Lunny's Yairi bouzouki.  I just haven't put them up.  Like Garry says, my point is that Donal Lunny has had for the most part small bodied bouzoukis starting off with his Abnett which he played for quite a while and features in quite a number of his earlier albums.  I have owned an Abnett bouzouki and a cittern in the past.  Both were reminiscent of the 'Lunny' tone because of the three pieced staved back in which Roger Landes alluded to Herb Taylor's prototype.

As for size envy, I have none.  I just appreciate good tone from an instrument.  The jangly sound in a bouzouki has to combine with some smoothness otherwise it would come as too harsh on the ears.  It is a fine balance for an instrument maker to try and create that tonal balance.  From what I have listened to, the Joe Foley's small bodied Irish bouzouki achieves that.  I am not a great fan of the larger bodied irish bouzoukis projecting a boomy bass.  By comparison, the Greek Bouzouki has a relatively small body.

----------


## Francis J

I get the picture Garry, and actually I'm always amused at how this story is told.  Fact is that people in Ireland refer to these instruments as "Bouzouki".  The name "Irish bouzouki" is one you will never hear in Ireland. We respect the fact that it's a variation of a Greek variation. 
   Nick Gellie said  "I think Donal Lunny's K.Yairi Irish Bouzouki is closer to the 'Lunny' sound"  There might be a simple explanation for that Nick!  :Confused:

----------


## Colin Lindsay

> There are some other video clips that better illustrate the sound of Donal Lunny's Yairi bouzouki.  I just haven't put them up.  Like Garry says, my point is that Donal Lunny has had for the most part small bodied bouzoukis starting off with his Abnett which he played for quite a while and features in quite a number of his earlier albums.  I have owned an Abnett bouzouki and a cittern in the past.  Both were reminiscent of the 'Lunny' tone because of the three pieced staved back in which Roger Landes alluded to Herb Taylor's prototype.


I think a lot of the evolution has come through what exactly is being played. The early days of Planxty featured bouzoukis and mandolas etc as accompaniment instruments to pipes or whistles, playing tunes or harmonies, with Christy Moore’s guitar providing the strumming background. When Andy for example became a solo musician he moved to a more mellow, guitar sound hence the guitar bouzouki or the bass bouzouki; warmer and less strident. Donal also developed the bouzouki strumming prevalent on his solo albums to complement or back-up pipes or fiddles and again appears to have gone for larger, deeper bodies for that bass accompaniment sound. If I listen to Mozaik, for example, Andy's melodies appear more strident and treble from smaller-bodied instruments that need the projection; other solo albums feature the beautiful mellow lower bass strings to complement his voice. 
As the bouzouki (and as Francis J says, I never refer to it as ‘Irish’ bouzouki over here) becomes more and more of a replacement for the guitar we’ll see more of those warmer, mellow instruments to complement it's smaller cousins.
Incidentally it’s one of the reasons I sold my Gazuki, firstly people thought it was just a guitar, and secondly I couldn’t get the stage projection I needed to be heard over small pipes and flutes in my last band. It was great when recording but not on stage.

----------

Mike Anderson, 

Nick Gellie, 

Rob Zamites

----------


## Nick Gellie

Colin, I really appreciate your insights from your own experience playing different types of Irish Bouzoukis.  In order to play with small pipes and flutes you need some cut and projection and a Gazouki did not quite have it.  Gazoukis are good for soloists, duos, and bands where the bouzouki is the principal backing instrument.

The teardrop-shape with a flat-top or an arch-top provides more projection and cut in a band situation.  The bouzouki player in Llan de Cubel does wonderful backing when combined with a guitar in a similar manner to Ciarran Curran and Dáithí Sproule in Altan.  In both bands a Sobell long necked Irish Bouzouki is being played.  Eamonn Doorley manages to get his Foley to project in Julie Fowlis's band.  He does play a Gazouki now (perhaps a Sobell).  The flat-tops project and sound better in an acoustic setting perhaps.

----------


## mrmando

> Frankly I think the term "bouzouki" should be reserved for the Greek version, and use another term to designate the "Irish" model ... But I guess that issue's dead, and the name has to do double duty.


Well, if "mandolin" can mean a Gibson-style carved instrument, a flattop, or a bowlback, then surely "bouzouki" can signify more than one thing.

----------

Nick Gellie, 

Rob Zamites, 

zoukboy

----------


## DavidKOS

> Well, if "mandolin" can mean a Gibson-style carved instrument, a flattop, or a bowlback, then surely "bouzouki" can signify more than one thing.


I guess if they can call the little archtop f-hole guitar instrument that is tuned like a real Neapolitan mandolin a "mandolin", all bets are off.

----------


## zoukboy

> Arent we going full circle here? Irish musicians take a greek bouzouki with the longer scale and replicate it using a cittern body and a longer neck. They call it the Irish bouzouki. They then shorten the neck to practically standard OM and tune it GDAE but call it the short-scale Irish bouzouki.. next theyll widen and flare the body, go for six strings tuned EGBDAE and call it the Irish guitar


But it wasn't a "cittern body." There is very little correlation between a cittern and the original Irish bouzouki bodies, unless you are referring to Sobell's "cittern" design, which came later and was no doubt influenced by early Irish bouzoukis as well as the "mandolin with a tenor banjo scale length" that Dave Richardson of the Boys of the Lough commissioned and which inspired Sobell (who was then building lap dulcimers) to give it a go.

----------


## zoukboy

> As the bouzouki (and as Francis J says, I never refer to it as Irish bouzouki over here)


FWIW, I think the construction "Irish bouzouki" developed outside of Ireland, perhaps in the US or UK or Australia, to avoid confusion. Obviously, if an Irish person is playing Irish music on a bouzouki (of whatever sort) they would have no need to use the "Irish" adjective as a qualifier. I think it's analogous to the use of "Spanish" guitar in the US, first for the gut strung instrument and eventually for all guitars that were played by fretting the rather than using a slide to distinguish them from "Hawaiian" guitars. (Gibson's code for it's early electric guitars was "ES" followed by a model number, which stood for "Electric Spanish.") It made sense at the time when guitars were still fairly rare in American life.

----------

DavidKOS, 

Nick Gellie, 

Rob Zamites

----------


## Mike Anderson

> as well as the "mandolin with a tenor banjo scale length" that Dave Richardson of the Boys of the Lough commissioned and which inspired Sobell


Ah-ha, so that's what this is? Always wondered...thanks Roger!



Long as I'm asking about mystery instruments, can you please tell me what this is if you know? One of the elusive Sobell pin-bridges?

----------


## zoukboy

> Ah-ha, so that's what this is? Always wondered...thanks Roger!
> 
> 
> 
> Long as I'm asking about mystery instruments, can you please tell me what this is if you know? One of the elusive Sobell pin-bridges?


Mike,

The one on the BotL cover might actually be Dave's first Sobell. The earlier instrument - whose maker I do not know - can be seen in this illustration:



In the Andy photo that is a Sobell bouzouki with a pin bridge.

----------


## zoukboy

> Ah-ha, so that's what this is? Always wondered...thanks Roger!


Looking closer at it I am almost sure that is an early Sobell. Very similar to these:

----------


## Mike Anderson

> Mike,
> 
> The one on the BotL cover might actually be Dave's first Sobell. The earlier instrument - whose maker I do not know - can be seen in this illustration:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Andy photo that is a Sobell bouzouki with a pin bridge.


Thanks Roger - I'd always thought the one on the cover of the second BoTL album was a fantasy illustration by someone who didn't have the instrument handy. You can see a nice illustration of the other one on the cover of "The Piper's Broken Finger":



Looks like a volume and tone control on it, but it's just water drops.  :Smile:

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

dup

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

On that BOTL Cover, I've seen a headstock like that on a Manson and an Abnett... but that fretboard seems overly wide - probably just a fantasy sketch...

----------


## zoukboy

> On that BOTL Cover, I've seen a headstock like that on a Manson and an Abnett...


Interesting, but I am fairly certain neither Manson nor Abnett were the source of Richardson's first octave mandolin. It's been a while since I talked to him but I am confident that I would have remembered it since I am well familiar with them and their work. That first instrument Dave got was by a builder in Scotland or the north of England but I didn't get his name. I am trying to find out, though.

----------


## Mike Anderson

> Interesting, but I am fairly certain neither Manson nor Abnett were the source of Richardson's first octave mandolin. It's been a while since I talked to him but I am confident that I would have remembered it since I am well familiar with them and their work. That first instrument Dave got was by a builder in Scotland or the north of England but I didn't get his name. I am trying to find out, though.


Cool, hope it works out Roger.

----------


## zoukboy

> On that BOTL Cover, I've seen a headstock like that on a Manson and an Abnett... but that fretboard seems overly wide - probably just a fantasy sketch...


Could be, but I do remember Dave referring to that cover.  I have not been able to find a photo of it online.

----------


## Rob Zamites

I just love the threads and tales of the origins of our now 'modern' CBOMs. It's fascinating, and as a budding luthier, I appreciate knowing the history as much as I can. Thanks to our CBOM historians  :Coffee:

----------

zoukboy

----------


## zoukboy

I have been collecting data on this for quite some time. I will post bullet points eventually but need a few more details.

----------


## Graham McDonald

I think I have an old Frets magazine with an interview with Dave Richardson which might clear up the origin of his first zouky/citterny thing. I will look this evening. Interesting reading the comments about the Lunny sound. I suspect it is as much Donal as the instrument. He has had quite a number of instruments over the years. I made his a flat-top pin bridge instrument 12-13 years ago which he used for a couple of years, including the first Mozaik tour out here in 03 or 04, but he told me it was too responsive for what he wanted to do and then he found the Yairi. The top then split when he left it in a car in Okinawa and I don't know what happened to it after then. It has always been interesting to notice that the shorter scale octave mandolin seems to have become more popular in the US than in Europe and that the thinking behind them is more the sturdy carved Gibson approach than the lighter European bowlback mandolin style. Trying to track down the originasof the American octave mandolin or octave mandola has been interesting. They were around early last century, but fell out of fachion in favour of the tenor mandola. Rich Westerman made some in the late 70s. I have a photo of Alex Finn and another member of De Dannan with a couple of Rich's instruments, including a short scale bouzouki like object . That is as far back as I have been able to track a modern octave mandolin, but I am happy to be corrected. The new book will have a lengthy section on the history of the (Irish) bouzouki and I think I have a fairly definitive story there

cheers

----------

DavidKOS, 

Nick Gellie

----------


## zoukboy

> I think I have an old Frets magazine with an interview with Dave Richardson which might clear up the origin of his first zouky/citterny thing. I will look this evening. Interesting reading the comments about the Lunny sound. I suspect it is as much Donal as the instrument.


Hello Graham!

I am sure you are right about that.




> It has always been interesting to notice that the shorter scale octave mandolin seems to have become more popular in the US than in Europe and that the thinking behind them is more the sturdy carved Gibson approach than the lighter European bowlback mandolin style. Trying to track down the originas of the American octave mandolin or octave mandola has been interesting. They were around early last century, but fell out of fachion in favour of the tenor mandola. Rich Westerman made some in the late 70s. I have a photo of Alex Finn and another member of De Dannan with a couple of Rich's instruments, including a short scale bouzouki like object . That is as far back as I have been able to track a modern octave mandolin, but I am happy to be corrected. The new book will have a lengthy section on the history of the (Irish) bouzouki and I think I have a fairly definitive story there


Re: octave mandolins - several flat-backed tenor mandolas/octave mandolins were made by the Larson Brothers and badged with William Stahl's label. I have seen at least two of these in person.

As far as the modern instrument in the mold of Gibson arched top/back mandos the first one of those I ever heard of was a Monteleone owned by Darol Anger which he and Mike Marshall played on the Rounder LP "The Duo" released back in 1983. I suspect that was not the first one built coming from a "Gibson-esque" perspective though I have no earlier citations of the term "octave mandolin" or of any similar instrument. As you noted there were tenor mandolas, and I know of at least one Greek builder who built a four course bouzouki decades before Hiotis that was meant to be tuned G2D3A3E4 but to my knowledge it was a one-off.

----------


## Graham McDonald

In the early days of last century there was considerable discussion (especially in the pages of The Cadenza) on the virtues of the tenor and octave mandolas. At the 1908 convention of the American Guild of Banjoists, Mandolinists & Guitarists it was decided that the tenor mandola was the fit and proper instrument for mandolin orchestras, rather than the octave tuned mandola. While some of the manufacturers continued to make octave mandolas, they were very much in a minority and faded from view in the 1920s. They certainly don't turn up in catalogues from the 20s on.

It is interesting that Monteleone made one in the early 80s. On request from Darol Angar? I knew a musician in Melbourne who had a similar Steve Gilchrist instrument from around the same period. That one has an F stlye mandocello sized body and (from memory) around a 21" scale.

cheers

----------


## zoukboy

> It is interesting that Monteleone made one in the early 80s. On request from Darol Angar? I knew a musician in Melbourne who had a similar Steve Gilchrist instrument from around the same period. That one has an F stlye mandocello sized body and (from memory) around a 21" scale.


As far as I know it was at Darol's request, but it should be easy enough to find out. IIRC it looked like a big F4.

----------


## foldedpath

> Re: octave mandolins - several flat-backed tenor mandolas/octave mandolins were made by the Larson Brothers and badged with William Stahl's label. I have seen at least two of these in person.
> 
> As far as the modern instrument in the mold of Gibson arched top/back mandos the first one of those I ever heard of was a Monteleone owned by Darol Anger which he and Mike Marshall played on the Rounder LP "The Duo" released back in 1983. I suspect that was not the first one built coming from a "Gibson-esque" perspective though I have no earlier citations of the term "octave mandolin" or of any similar instrument.


Well, there is at least one Gibson OM example from 1904. Might have been a one-off, but I'm not sure that's been proven. Here's the Cafe link with photos:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ctave-Mandolin

If one were inclined... and I am, as an owner and enthusiast of the "Big Gibson" approach to this  :Smile: ... one might draw a direct link between this instrument and what Bruce Weber and others started doing in scaling up the Gibson mandolin design in the late part of that century. 

That Gibson OM is a 21 1/4" scale by the way, which isn't far off the 22" scale length of Weber's standard OM scale length, with 20" as an option.

----------


## garryireland

> Oh damn it all, so sorry to hear that - not the kids having Christmas, I am in the same boat, but the work. Have had to sell many instruments in the past myself, so I relate. That's why I could never have ordered the Andy Irvine books and DVD for myself, but am so grateful my brother and wife got them for me. 
> 
> Only one thing to do eh? Get something that pays the bills and hopefully lets you save for a good instrument or two. That's my resolution for 2015. Just glad I have my TC and my bodhran. And if you want something bespoke instead of a used instrument do think about Foley when the time comes Garry - he's in Dublin (no shipping or duty or any of that crap), you could meet the man and tell him exactly what you want. And you'd have a lifetime instrument of great quality and beauty and playability. So I hear anyway.  Good luck man!


did i mention i got my Irvine songbook signed by the man himself?????

----------


## Mike Anderson

> did i mention i got my Irvine songbook signed by the man himself?????


Always a silver lining.  :Smile:

----------


## zoukboy

> As far as the modern instrument in the mold of Gibson arched top/back mandos the first one of those I ever heard of was a Monteleone owned by Darol Anger which he and Mike Marshall played on the Rounder LP "The Duo" released back in 1983.


CORRECTION: The octave mandolin in question was built by *Gilchrist*, not Monteleone (my bad), and Darol says it started out as a mandola. Waiting for other data like scale length, etc.

----------


## Graham McDonald

According to an article in the October 1980 Frets on The Boys of the Loch, Dave Richardson's first double strung instrument  was based on a the size of a Levin mandolin body with a 19" scale (tenor banjo) neck and built by Gerald Short from Chesterfield. That was around 1970.  The Short instrument was replaced by a Sobell in 1975. What Dave probably didn't realise at the time was that Levin had been making flat backed tenor and octave mandolas since the 1920s, though I have no idea of their availability in the UK.

Cheers

----------

zoukboy

----------


## Mike Anderson

Thanks Graham. would love to see some photos some day, and some of the Sobell as well.

----------


## garryireland

If anyone has a greek bouzouki id be interested in buying

----------


## Graham McDonald

Here is the photo of the Boys of the Loch  from the Frets article, which I think is the same instrument that was posted earlier.

----------


## Mike Anderson

> Here is the photo of the Boys of the Loch  from the Frets article, which I think is the same instrument that was posted earlier.


Brilliant, thanks so much Graham!

----------


## zoukboy

> Here is the photo of the Boys of the Loch  from the Frets article, which I think is the same instrument that was posted earlier.


Graham,

Is that photo captioned in the Frets article? Does it confirm the instrument in the photo is the Short? It looks to me like the very earliest Sobells.

----------


## Graham McDonald

No captions except the names of the players and I think it is the Sobell. I did some googling a few years ago trying to find something out about Gerald Short, but came up with nothing. Perhaps time to try agin!

----------

zoukboy

----------


## zoukboy

> CORRECTION: The octave mandolin in question was built by *Gilchrist*, not Monteleone (my bad), and Darol says it started out as a mandola. Waiting for other data like scale length, etc.


UPDATE: from Darol:
"The Gilchrist was a giant F-5 with a 17&3/4 " scale. Too short for an octave mandolin really. but it's tremendous as a mandola."

----------


## Colin Lindsay

> But it wasn't a "cittern body." There is very little correlation between a cittern and the original Irish bouzouki bodies, unless you are referring to Sobell's "cittern" design, which came later


I just meant the general teardrop design, which would have been used on any number of instruments, unless they were all invented later. Judging by some of the theories that abound, it will take Sci-fi fans interested in parallel universes and time travel to be able to explain which came first.  :Smile: 

Johnnys bouzouki is shown below along with an early cittern.

----------


## zoukboy

> I just meant the general teardrop design, which would have been used on any number of instruments, unless they were all invented later. Judging by some of the theories that abound, it will take Sci-fi fans interested in parallel universes and time travel to be able to explain which came first.


Actually the historical record is pretty clear on this.

I wasn't referring to Johnny's instrument, which was made by John Bailey for John Pearse in 1963, and which Pearse gave to Johnny in 1967. Pearse had asked Bailey to build a replacement for his damaged Greek bouzouki, but Bailey refused to make a staved back, so Pearse took him an old Preston English Guitar to use as a model. So in the case of this particular instrument there is a connection between it and the historical English guitar. 

 

It should be noted that this instrument was not conceived or built as an "Irish bouzouki" however much it resembles those that were. And it took Johnny retuning it to GDAD and playing Irish music on it to bring into that sphere. Pearse later said he had "unwittingly" introduced the Irish bouzouki but that is not really true (and he might have been joking).

All the pioneering Irish musicians who played bouzouki started with Greek instruments and all of them except Alec Finn switched once alternatives were provided by instrument builders. The first Irish bouzouki to be conceived and built _as such_ was the partially staved back one Peter Abnett built for Dónal Lunny in 1970. The English guitar/cittern influence on Abnett was limited to the decoration at the end of the headstock.

Most of the supposed influence of the historical English guitar/cittern on the Irish bouzouki has been perceived after the fact and is based on observance of apparent similarities such as the "flat back" in spite of the fact that the first examples - Abnett's - were not flat-backed. 



I have watched and participated in this discussion for over twenty years now, and I have a theory why these arguments are being made (having to do with competing socio-cultural identities) and I may write an article on it at some point. In the meantime it's interesting and fun to discuss the actual historical record here among friends.

----------

DavidKOS, 

Nick Gellie, 

Rob Zamites

----------


## zookster

I'm with you guys, I always stick to fifths regardless of which instrument I am playing.  

With the Irish bouzouki, i have gone back and forth with the tone depending on whether I'm using Bushmills or Jamieson. Normally, with the Bushmills, the sound is somewhat better, but by the end of the night, it's hard to tell the difference.

With the Greek bouzouki, I adhere strictly to ouzo, but I have to admit, in very short order the sound begins to deteriorate and the other session members become irritated. I did wind up in one woman's lap the other night, and that didn't help the tone, either.
However, she did compliment me on my pirouette off of the makeshift platform where the session gathers.  It took a while to retune the instrument from the sidewalk outside the main door, but  fortunately, two pedestrians threw change into my case.

----------

Nick Gellie, 

Rob Zamites, 

Spookydirt, 

zoukboy

----------


## Mike Anderson

> I'm with you guys, I always stick to fifths regardless of which instrument I am playing.  
> 
> With the Irish bouzouki, i have gone back and forth with the tone depending on whether I'm using Bushmills or Jamieson. Normally, with the Bushmills, the sound is somewhat better, but by the end of the night, it's hard to tell the difference.
> 
> With the Greek bouzouki, I adhere strictly to ouzo, but I have to admit, in very short order the sound begins to deteriorate and the other session members become irritated. I did wind up in one woman's lap the other night, and that didn't help the tone, either.
> However, she did compliment me on my pirouette off of the makeshift platform where the session gathers.  It took a while to retune the instrument from the sidewalk outside the main door, but  fortunately, two pedestrians threw change into my case.


 :Laughing:  :Cool:

----------


## Mike Anderson

Here's one I've wondered about**: Donal Lunny from a Youtube video. Could this be another Yairi, maybe completely one-off for Donal? Looks like he has a guitar in that same very unusual body style. Anyone who knows anything about his current instruments, I'm very curious.

----------


## garryireland

> Here's one I've wondered about**: Donal Lunny from a Youtube video. Could this be another Yairi, maybe completely one-off for Donal? Looks like he has a guitar in that same very unusual body style. Anyone who knows anything about his current instruments, I'm very curious.


He has had that Yari guitar for a decade or more but that other pic sure looks like a gazuki, pretty cool

----------


## Francis J

I'm not sure where this might fit in to the present discussion, but the photo below is of me playing a bouzouki in 1975, 4 courses,Italian made instrument "Eko".  Not a pioneering design, but just an illustration of the fluid nature of the development of the instrument, and it's use first in folk bands ( as distinct from Traditional groups) in Ireland.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Rob Zamites

> I'm not sure where this might fit in to the present discussion, but the photo below is of me playing a bouzouki in 1975, 4 courses,German(?) made instrument "Eko".  Not a pioneering design, but just an illustration of the fluid nature of the development of the instrument, and it's use first in folk bands ( as distinct from Traditional groups) in Ireland.


What a handsome devil you are!  :Redface:

----------


## Francis J

Why thank you Rob, but it's "were" not "are" !  Nearly forty years of rain and wind have played havoc with the complexion, but still can do the devil when called on.. :Whistling:

----------


## Colin Lindsay

> I'm not sure where this might fit in to the present discussion, but the photo below is of me playing a bouzouki in 1975, 4 courses,Italian made instrument "Eko".  Not a pioneering design, but just an illustration of the fluid nature of the development of the instrument, and it's use first in folk bands ( as distinct from Traditional groups) in Ireland.


Same as mine!! Cost me £40 if I remember rightly, but bought straight off the shelf of a local music shop. Seems like we were all playing them, as anything else was just too hard to find, or too expensive.

----------


## zoukboy

Colin and Francis:

I'd be very interested in when you each took up the Greek bouzouki and what inspired you to do that.

Thanks!  :-)

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

> Same as mine!! Cost me £40 if I remember rightly, but bought straight off the shelf of a local music shop. Seems like we were all playing them, as anything else was just too hard to find, or too expensive….


 I had one that cost me £36 pounds mid 70's.  Planxty was all the rage but we also covered a few Cat Stevens and Joni Mitchell numbers on it.  The first two tunes I learned on it were The Blacksmith and Merrily Kissed the Quaker - but in Greek Tuning.

----------


## citeog

Did anyone cop on to that odd-looking split saddle in the second Donal Lunny pic? It's compensated under the B string as per usual but the split then favours the two lowest bass strings. Almost like an upside-down Lowden/Takamine arrangement. 

Sorry for the non-bouzouki query but I'm mystified by that...

Paul

----------


## Nick Gellie

I originally had a 22" Rick Westerman Irish bouzouki back in 1981.  The neck split but I repaired it with wood glue and it was fine after that.  I also had a 4-course Greek bouzouki bought in some underground Greek Bouzouki shop in Sydney in 1985.  Of course the neck bowed eventually and I got a 3-course Greek Bouzouki from a shop in Brunswick in 1989.  The neck bowed similarly bowed after three years.

in 1995 I had a custom-ordered Greek from a fantastic luthier in South Australia called George Stasinopolous.  Here is his website http://www.bouzoukimaker.com/index.html - he makes fantastic Greek bouzoukis, as good as anyone back in Greece.  I set it up as DGAD.  It was a great instrument with natural walnut for the back and plain soundboard on the front.  It had a laminated neck so no neck bowing as a result.  I sold to a Greek bloke in Sydney who was wanting to start playing Greek Bouzouki. I then ordered a 3-course version of the Greek Bouzouki from him - same plane walnut staved back and laminated neck.  I sold it to a really Greek bouzouki player in Melbourne who wanted to play traditional Greek tunes and songs on it.  He already had a 4-course Greek bouzouki for playing Rembetika music. 

I have since gone back to the Irish Bouzouki because although i like playing Greek music, I did not have the time to develop adept skilled playing on the Greek Bouzouki in the Greek style.  The Irish Bouzouki is my compromise between playing Balkan and Celtic music.  So like Roger I have been looking for an Irish Bouzouki that has that Greek sound.  I really appreciate his efforts to get Herb Taylor to build a three piece staved back bouzouki that has the tonal attributes of a Greek Bouzouki.  

I gather that most cafe members and perhaps visitors to the cafe are looking for that right blend in an Irish Bouzouki.  Now that Peter Abnett has retired from making instruments, there is an opening for luthiers around the world to make staved-back Irish bouzoukis.  Herb Taylor is already down that path in the USA.  Joe Foley in Ireland has made them in the past but his flat backed bouzoukis are great sounding instruments.  Maybe we need a luthier in Australia to make similar instruments.  In many ways this approach is really exciting new ground for the development of the Irish Bouzouki.

----------

zoukboy

----------


## DavidKOS

> although i like playing Greek music, I did not have the time to develop adept skilled playing on the Greek Bouzouki in the Greek style.


Although I really appreciate what you guys have done with the instrument, it seems not too many of us around here play "Greek Bouzouki in the Greek style". Am I wrong?

----------


## zoukboy

> I had one that cost me £36 pounds mid 70's.  Planxty was all the rage but we also covered a few Cat Stevens and Joni Mitchell numbers on it.  The first two tunes I learned on it were The Blacksmith and Merrily Kissed the Quaker - but in Greek Tuning.


Thanks, Eddie. Do you know the year you bought it?

----------


## zoukboy

> Although I really appreciate what you guys have done with the instrument, it seems not too many of us around here play "Greek Bouzouki in the Greek style". Am I wrong?


I have in the past but don't now. I found I preferred to play Greek music on either oud, lavta, or laouto.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## zoukboy

> I originally had a 22" Rick Westerman Irish bouzouki back in 1981.


Thanks, Nick.

Anyone else with early experience with the Irish bouzouki, cittern, Greek bouzouki in Celtic music, etc., feel free to chime in. 

Kevin and Dagger: when did you take up the instrument?

----------


## DavidKOS

> I have in the past but don't now. I found I preferred to play Greek music on either oud, lavta, or laouto.


lavta, that's the Turkish one with tambur fretting, right? Those are very cool too. Tuned mandolin style in bolahenk tuning if I recall.

----------


## zoukboy

Greek/Turkish, yes. Nylon strung with four unison courses with a single bass, tuned D2 A2 D3 A3. 27 nylon frets to the octave. *Great* instrument.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

> Thanks, Eddie. Do you know the year you bought it?


I think 1975, a friend of mine brought it back from a trip to Greece.   It was playable but not great.

----------

zoukboy

----------


## Nick Gellie

> I have in the past but don't now. I found I preferred to play Greek music on either oud, lavta, or laouto.


I agree wholeheartedly with you Roger regarding playing Greek music with an oud, lavta, or laouto.  One of my favourite bands here playing Greek music is the Habibis who have both the Greek Bouzouki and the Laouto in their band.

----------


## Colin Lindsay

> Colin and Francis:
> 
> I'd be very interested in when you each took up the Greek bouzouki and what inspired you to do that.
> 
> Thanks!  :-)


Literally, there was nothing else! I could walk into any music shop and browse the oddities and trade-ins, but apart from guitars, keyboards and drums there was always very little in odd or unusual instruments in my area. The bouzouki was bought brand new one day when I spotted it hanging off a shelf, but I tuned it GDAE from the start. I have photos of me playing it when supporting Andy Irvine at a concert in Coleraine, Northern Ireland and he gave me a bit of advice on using heavier strings as it wouldn’t stay in tune; it probably sounded terrible. I had a bodhran, 6 and 12-string acoustic guitar, lyre (for Alan Stivell tunes!), autoharp, bouzouki and a collection of tin whistles; dabbled a bit in electric guitars with some strange cutaway thing that was played by one of the members of Horslips. Later on I added a Tasco synthesiser for Horslips tunes or when Moving Hearts came out around 1981; the bouzouki is leaning against it in the photo. I remember being given a bodhran that had belonged to Sean O’Riada to play at a concert in Portstewart Town Hall back around 1982 so I must have sounded alright to some…  :Grin:

----------


## DavidKOS

> Greek/Turkish, yes. Nylon strung with four unison courses with a single bass, tuned D2 A2 D3 A3. 27 nylon frets to the octave. *Great* instrument.


Yeah, although I was taught a different tuning by a Turkish musician.

The instrument reads Turkish classical music as if it were tuned  C G D A, according to my sources.  But this is in "Turk nota" which means that the A actually sounds E (called bolahenk tuning) and thus is really GDAE!

I suppose you could tune it any way you want.

----------


## zoukboy

> Yeah, although I was taught a different tuning by a Turkish musician.
> 
> The instrument reads Turkish classical music as if it were tuned  C G D A, according to my sources.  But this is in "Turk nota" which means that the A actually sounds E (called bolahenk tuning) and thus is really GDAE!
> 
> I suppose you could tune it any way you want.


David,

I am aware that there are "sources" that list that tuning for lavta but I don't know a single musician who uses it.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## DavidKOS

> David,
> 
> I am aware that there are "sources" that list that tuning for lavta but I don't know a single musician who uses it.


Do you hang out with classically trained Turkish musicians much?
Just curious...and I've seen your tuning used too. By one of the Turks!

It really depends on where you want to tune it I guess, like the Turkish ud, which I've seen usually tuned to the high string having a concert pitch of D, but have seen it at C and as low a G.

That tambur fretting is killer, you can play almost anything on it.

I can also see how the Greek lauto CDGA can easily become DADA.

Anyway, from what I heard last year at Lark camp, the lavta is growing in popularity these days.

----------


## Francis J

My introduction to Bouzouki was very similar to Colin's.  In 1974/5 you had no choice in terms of instrument, and less choice in strings.  I tuned mine GDAE, as I was coming from mandolin, and I thought of it as a BIG mandolin.  There was no instruction available, and you learned by listening to vinyl records or radio, and there was precious little folk music on radio in Ireland, apart from BBC.  I never thought of it as Greek, although I would have heard some commercial Greek style music, and I knew Johnny Moynihan had brought his one from Greece.
  The development of a local variation of the instrument was probably as much a result of the lack of availability of decent, serviceable imported Bouzoukis, as a desire to innovate.  The makers would have thought about new approaches, not because they disapproved of the Greek method of construction, but wanted to use guitar making skills which they already had perfected.  The result was never going to be anything radical, but it solved the issue of availability, and meant that musicians could crossover easily from mandolin or tenor banjo to bouzouki without trauma.
   Of course there's also the point that there were very few luthiers in Ireland in the seventies, a handful at most, and as has been mentioned above, the first variations came from England.   I've seen a couple of radically different constructions in my time, and have owned a few remarkable ones too, but I've had my Foley, no 309 since 1996, and it should see me out!!
   Whatever it is, I call it my Bouzouki

----------

DavidKOS, 

des, 

Nick Gellie, 

Rob Zamites, 

zoukboy

----------


## Francis J

Edit. double post

----------


## garryireland

I have the chance to get one on ebay.  Truss rod and seems in good nick.  Yay or nay?

----------


## Colin Lindsay

If you want to post the link, we can all give our sixpenny-worth…  :Smile:  I promise we’ll not outbid you…

----------


## garryireland

> If you want to post the link, we can all give our sixpenny-worth…  I promise we’ll not outbid you…


If you need someone to babysit your Sobell you know where to call!

----------


## Dagger Gordon

> Thanks, Nick.
> 
> Anyone else with early experience with the Irish bouzouki, cittern, Greek bouzouki in Celtic music, etc., feel free to chime in. 
> 
> Kevin and Dagger: when did you take up the instrument?


Hey Roger,

I'm sorry, I just saw this thread today as it turned up in the Irish/Portuguese thread that's ongoing at the moment (December 2015). I was away last January and missed it.

So to answer your question almost a year late, I would have probably taken it up around 1977 or 1978 maybe?  Quite a lot of Sobell instruments were being played in Scotland at the time.  In the mid seventies I was playing mandolin, tenor banjo and guitar. I started mandolin about 1972 I think.

----------

cayuga red, 

zoukboy

----------


## Colin Lindsay

> My introduction to Bouzouki was very similar to Colin's.  In 1974/5 you had no choice in terms of instrument, and less choice in strings.  I tuned mine GDAE, as I was coming from mandolin, and I thought of it as a BIG mandolin.  There was no instruction available, and you learned by listening to vinyl records or radio, and there was precious little folk music on radio in Ireland, apart from BBC.


Gawd yes! I remember buying LPs and playing them repeatedly, again and again, until I had the tunes note perfect - even down to the trills and embellishments of the musician playing in the recording. I can remember my first half-dozen LPs and it's funny how many of my favourite little throwaway tunes for practice come from those same recordings, even after so many years. No iTunes in those days, so fewer tunes and more time for each one! I used to hunt flea markets - Smithfield in Belfast - for instruments, or record shops like Knights in Botanic Avenue for old LPs of folk musicians. I got my first stereo record player from a junk shop too - a huge 'Elizabethan' set. 
There was definitely no instruction with the instruments and the added bonus of THAT was that we came up with our own styles, tunings and other affectations - there was no-one to correct us, but there were also no limits on personal inspiration or technique. The fact that we were broke also meant we had to adapt and overcome limitations such as rubbish frets or cheap strings. Years later I was embarrassed when I couldn't play some of the basic techniques and tunes that other musicians had mastered so simply, but it was only when I realised that I could play MY preferred tunes way better than they could that I realised I had my own style and methodology that was in it's own way, unique. Similarly when I could afford good instruments I found they almost played themselves, it was so easy after years of bent necks and poor manufacture..  :Smile:  To paraphrase Frank Sinatra: we did it our way...
Sometimes I miss heavy black tape and the smell of solder from dodgy cables...

----------


## ollaimh

my first bouzouki was a greek funky one i found in an antique store on vancouver island



it was free?   i bought a sitar and the zouk for 200 bucks, the sitar sold for 350, more than enough to fix up the greek and i was off to the races.  i love the delicate and ehterial tone of greek bouzouki, and the big wang sound .   irish have more reverbs and punch from the heavier build and strings but equally good for many thing.  

so i like both

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## ollaimh

now when i playgreek i have a small collection.  like a stathoupoulo that was in pieces in a toronto junk store window--which took a lot of repair but i love the shorter scale and the amazingly loud warm tone from such a small instrument

from 1913, or a sasso from ebay, which also needed repair but a long 27 inch scale

i love the sound of old instruments.   same for portuguese guitars.  i love the funkier tone of the antique instruments over the big sound of the modern ones.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## DavidKOS

> from 1913, or a sasso ....
> i love the sound of old instruments.   same for portuguese guitars.  i love the funkier tone of the antique instruments over the big sound of the modern ones.


Was that Sasso originally set up as a trikordo? A lot of those early bouzoukis has mandolin tuners but were set up with only 3 courses.

----------


## ollaimh

i don't know how the sasso was origionally sett up. it came without strings and hadn't been played for awhile.  the neck was wider than the stathoupoulo, so i am guessing it was either meant for four courses or with a bass quad row of four strings like some early stathoupoulos and early peleponese bouzoukia.  the sasso is loud and jangly but not the tone of the stathoupoulo. the s as an amazing tone for such a small body. he was a real genius!!

in fact i prefer the more metalic and jangly irish zouks as well. if i want lots of bass i play guitar.

i still regularilly play that cheapo i put up pics of first.  very punchy and jangly.  real mother of toilet seat inlay!!

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## michael zwingli

Hey, Kevin...I can certainly discern your love for the bouzouki from your post, but, ouch!!! Your comments seem to reveal a bias against the Irish instrument. Actually, the Greek bouzouki is not the original, but was itself developed from the Turkish "bozuk", which itself probably has a common ancestor with the oud. The Irish instrument, which is actually more  properly called an octave mandolin, was hybridized from Greek bouzoukis and mandolins to be a better accompaniment in Irish music, and more comfortable in session playing. I actually wish that the Irish would stop using the term bouzouki for the thing, and instead use "octave mandolin", or something else, so that these unfortunate comparisons will cease.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## zoukboy

> Hey, Kevin...I can certainly discern your love for the bouzouki from your post, but, ouch!!! Your comments seem to reveal a bias against the Irish instrument. Actually, the Greek bouzouki is not the original, but was itself developed from the Turkish "bozuk", which itself probably has a common ancestor with the oud. The Irish instrument, which is actually more  properly called an octave mandolin, was hybridized from Greek bouzoukis and mandolins to be a better accompaniment in Irish music, and more comfortable in session playing. I actually wish that the Irish would stop using the term bouzouki for the thing, and instead use "octave mandolin", or something else, so that these unfortunate comparisons will cease.


Yeah... good luck with that!  :-)

----------

Dagger Gordon

----------


## Dacraw54

> Hey, Kevin...I can certainly discern your love for the bouzouki from your post, but, ouch!!! Your comments seem to reveal a bias against the Irish instrument. Actually, the Greek bouzouki is not the original, but was itself developed from the Turkish "bozuk", which itself probably has a common ancestor with the oud. The Irish instrument, which is actually more  properly called an octave mandolin, was hybridized from Greek bouzoukis and mandolins to be a better accompaniment in Irish music, and more comfortable in session playing. I actually wish that the Irish would stop using the term bouzouki for the thing, and instead use "octave mandolin", or something else, so that these unfortunate comparisons will cease.


Considering that the term Octave Mandolin and Cittern as used by Americans didn't exist in the 70's in Ireland, and in European Classical circles they referred to different instruments.
Leave the Irish alone, magnificent innovators that they are, and let the replicators cease from inventing 'names'.

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## Dagger Gordon

> I actually wish that the Irish would stop using the term bouzouki for the thing, and instead use "octave mandolin", or something else, so that these unfortunate comparisons will cease.


I think we're stuck with it now! But actually I agree with you.

----------


## Seter

I tune my Irish bouzouki like a Greek bouzouki, what does that make it? I usually just call it a bouzouki, plain and simple.

----------


## Colin Lindsay

> Considering that the term Octave Mandolin and Cittern as used by Americans didn't exist in the 70's in Ireland, and in European Classical circles they referred to different instruments.
> Leave the Irish alone, magnificent innovators that they are, and let the replicators cease from inventing 'names'.


Of course they did, at least cittern did, due to the availability of folk LPs from the mainland in the 1960s and 1970s. We're not as backward as all that!
If we WERE to lose a name it's this dreadful "IRISH' bouzouki label that pervades everywhere; to many of us living here it's a flatback or European model. Many times I've joked that I play 'Irish' guitar, 'Irish' hurdy-gurdy, 'Irish' clarinet etc as it seems to make as much sense.

----------


## Dacraw54

> Of course they did, at least cittern did, due to the availability of folk LPs from the mainland in the 1960s and 1970s. We're not as backward as all that!
> If we WERE to lose a name it's this dreadful "IRISH' bouzouki label that pervades everywhere; to many of us living here it's a flatback or European model. Many times I've joked that I play 'Irish' guitar, 'Irish' hurdy-gurdy, 'Irish' clarinet etc as it seems to make as much sense.


As a bouzouki (Greek modified) player in Ireland (Southern) in the early 70's I beg to differ.  I never heard or saw a 5 course 'bouzouki' - call it what you will.  I also never heard the term Octave Mandolin.
In the USA in the late 80's I rekindled my interest with a Johnston Bouzouki.  I bought Tim O'Brien's DVD "Mandolin and Bouzouki of Tim O'Brien' - funny thing was that with a Giacomel 20" Scale 'bouzouki' tuned to GDAE Tim had what is now called an Octave Mandolin.  I then got Zan McCleods  DVD and he explained Cittern and a few other names that clearly he was not comfortable with.

What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet...

----------


## DavidKOS

> What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet...


So as I see it we have these instruments, all with chromatic metal frets and machine tuning gears, to deal with:

Bowl backed:

6 and 8 string instruments, varying in size from the little baglama to the tzouras to the full size bouzouki.

Liuto Cantabile, 5 courses, tuned CDGAE

Flat back instruments:

made like the 8 string bowl back as above, but flat.

Carved or archtop style instruments:

Short scale, 4 courses, usually tuned like an octave mandolin

Long scale 4 and 5 course instruments, tuned a number of ways.

and so on.

Maybe it's not the instrument itself that defines these things.

_Perhaps it's the music we play on them that defines them_.

Give one of you guys a "bouzouki", tuned however you want, and you can play a nice jig or reel for me...then hand me the same instrument, and I'll tune it DAD, CFAD, or GDAD, and play a hasapiko or zeibekiko for you. Or tune it (C) GDAE and play some Italian music.

----------

OneChordTrick

----------


## Colin Lindsay

> As a bouzouki (Greek modified) player in Ireland (Southern) in the early 70's I beg to differ.  I never heard or saw a 5 course 'bouzouki' - call it what you will.  I also never heard the term Octave Mandolin.
> 
> What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet...


YOU didn't. That doesn't mean that no-one did, and again I'll reinforce that, by reading the sleeve notes of the LPs I used to listen to, I was familiar with the sound of, and the name of, a cittern. It was NOT referred to as a 10-string bouzouki, nor indeed was ANY bouzouki over here referred to as an 'IRISH' bouzouki until many years later. I have a number of novels, too, that I read in the 1960s that mentioned the cittern and had drawings, so I was familiar with the concept long before the sound.

What's in a name? It's the appropriation of the name 'bouzouki' as being somehow invented over here, and then applied to every other instrument as though they're a variation of the same instrument, that gets my goat. No matter the name of the goat. The instrument itself, I love.

----------


## DavidKOS

> YOU didn't. That doesn't mean that no-one did, and again I'll reinforce that, by reading the sleeve notes of the LPs I used to listen to, I was familiar with the sound of, and the name of, a cittern. It was NOT referred to as a 10-string bouzouki, nor indeed was ANY bouzouki over here referred to as an 'IRISH' bouzouki until many years later. I have a number of novels, too, that I read in the 1960s that mentioned the cittern and had drawings, so I was familiar with the concept long before the sound.
> 
> *What's in a name?* It's the appropriation of the name 'bouzouki' as being somehow invented over here, and then applied to every other instrument as though they're a variation of the same instrument, that gets my goat. No matter the name of the goat. The instrument itself, I love.


Let's be honest and historically accurate.

Some creative Irish musicians realized you could use a DAD Greek bouzouki and use it in ITM.

Then the whole concept grew...more strings, more body size, carved top, etc.

And then the other issues happened...like  the whole Sobell thing, and so on. And now we have a mish-mash of terms, tunings, and styles.

Back to my point...what *MUSIC* do you play on your bouzouki/octave mandolin/whatever?

----------


## Dacraw54

> YOU didn't. That doesn't mean that no-one did, and again I'll reinforce that, by reading the sleeve notes of the LPs I used to listen to, I was familiar with the sound of, and the name of, a cittern. It was NOT referred to as a 10-string bouzouki, nor indeed was ANY bouzouki over here referred to as an 'IRISH' bouzouki until many years later. I have a number of novels, too, that I read in the 1960s that mentioned the cittern and had drawings, so I was familiar with the concept long before the sound.
> 
> What's in a name? It's the appropriation of the name 'bouzouki' as being somehow invented over here, and then applied to every other instrument as though they're a variation of the same instrument, that gets my goat. No matter the name of the goat. The instrument itself, I love.


I'll tell you what.  Why don't you remember your memories as things that you did and happened to you and I'll do the same, as I have done.  You are totally wrong about my experience, and I couldn't give a toss about yours.

I'd never heard of a Bouzouki before Johnny Moynihan played one.  Then I got one - a Greek Bouzouki.  I learned The Blacksmith, Merrily Kissed the Quaker, Zorba the Greek, and Never on a Sunday, in short order on a Greek tetrachordo zouk in Greek tuning.   Then, like Donal Lunny (actually copying him) I changed the strings and tuning to GgDdAADD.   I use whatever name to describe an instrument that the person I'm talking to understands - Bouzouki, Octave Mandolin, Cittern, Blarge, Blarz, Dordan, Octave Mandola, Guizouki, Zouktar, Boutar, Thingymajig, The Beast,

----------


## DavidKOS

> I use whatever name to describe an instrument that the person I'm talking to understands - Bouzouki, Octave Mandolin, Cittern, *Blarge*, Blarz, Dordan, Octave Mandola, Guizouki, Zouktar, Boutar, Thingymajig, The Beast,


I always hoped Blarge would catch on as the name...it has a great humorous sound as a word.

----------


## Beanzy

Maybe blarge is too close to the sound of someone needing a clear run to the bogs after a feed of pints. 
You could ask someone what that thing is and watch everyone scatter to clear a path as they answered.

The thing with the Irish Bouzouki is theres great satisfaction in saying the word, especially in a decent Irish accent. 
Its actually a kick to say the word. It comes out like bazzouukey, sometimes prefixed with the affectionate bleedin to get some extra twist into it. Its a great word & Im glad we nicked it  :Wink:  
Really were talking about hiberno-english, a language where words get mashed up & meanings reversed just for the heck of it, or have bits added to make the word more interesting to use, efficiency and accuracy are secondary considerations there. 
Were great manglers of other peoples words, possibly because weve been at it for so long.

Interesting bit of trivia, those funky tuners for citterns and english guitars (also used in Portuguese gitarras)  used to be made in Dublin up until the end of the 1800s

----------

DavidKOS

----------


## michael zwingli

Please, take it easy, boys. I feel badly now that I started a bit of a toss up between Colin and Dacraw, with whom I agree completely in his referral to the Irish genius for innovation. Actually, I intended to post in defense of the Irish instrument, not to disparage it. Irish and Scottish trad are the musical styles that I prefer, and I love the sound that the "Irish bouzouki" brings to the repertoire, so light and playful. My concern, though, is that, whatever Johnny Moynihan and Alec Finn might have called what they played, all of the subsequent innovations have resulted in an instrument which is more like a large bodied mandolin (or a mandola) with an increased scale length than it is like a Greek tetrachordo bouzouki. Must we call any four-course hollow bodied chordophone with a smaller body than a guitar and a longer scale than a mando a "bouzouki"? I think not. The term "Irish bouzouki" is fine in and of itself, and I agree with Beanzy that the word "bouzouki" is catchy and fun to say. But, again, the problem that I have with it is that as long as we call our thing a "bouzouki", players of the Greek instrument, which is a beautiful instrument in its own right (please don't misinterpret me), will have opportunity to insinuate that the "Irishy" bouzouki is somehow a degeneration of the Greek "original", which, as I noted earlier, might be characterized as a knock-off of the Turkish "original", et cetera (very little is truly original in this world...as the author of Ecclesiastes noted: The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.). Can we not dip into the Gaelic etymology to devise a name for our particular and unique instrument, and so avoid such unfavorable suggestions? The Gaelic League has been working for 125 years now to prevent the complete demise of, and to promote the use and integration of Gaelic in everyday life. One way this can be accomplished is by using Gaelic morphemes in devising names for new things, right? Should we not use our language to name the things developed by ourselves (I am of Irish ancestry, a Moore, on my mom's side)? Zoukboy and Dagger might be right...the name "bouzouki" now seems to be entrenched, but you never know...

----------


## Dacraw54

Jimmy Crowley had a Dordán, but that didn't catch on either.  I had a 5-course Foley with a 17" spread and BLARZ on the label.  I asked Joe about it and he said "Sure they were coming to me with all sorts of names they wanted..."

----------


## michael zwingli

> Jimmy Crowley had a Dordán, but that didn't catch on either.  I had a 5-course Foley with a 17" spread and BLARZ on the label.  I asked Joe about it and he said "Sure they were coming to me with all sorts of names they wanted..."


I looked up dordan in Irish, and it seems to mean "fuzz". Funny enough name. Not sure what to make of BLARZ, though.

----------


## Dacraw54

BLARZ = Bleedin' Large Zouk
DORDAN = Drone

----------

