# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Why hide glue?

## dorenac

I'm having a discussion with a friend about whether hide glue is the preferred luthier's glue and if so why.  His contention is luthiers use hide glue because it makes taking an instrument apart  easy when repairs are necessary, which it does.  He also contends that luthiers are NOT woodworkers.  What other adhesives are used?  I would appreciate some insight from the builders out there , as well as other comments.
Thanks

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## Hans

Most of us that use HHG (hot hide glue) use it because once it dries it's brittle and most of the white or yellow glues are rubbery. It just transmits vibrations better than anything else except maybe hot fish glue (whew!). It's easy to take apart, but is exceedingly strong when the parts fit. You can make rub joints with it, and it doesn't slide around much after it jells a little. 
It's relatively simple to make up and stores in the freezer well for several weeks. Cleans up easily with a stick of wood and sands better than that rubbery stuff.
What's not to like?  :Smile: 
Regular Titebond is a second choice (aside from fish glue), but suffers from being rubbery and it creeps.
Cyano works for inlay and certain small apps, same with epoxy and Weldon 16 or Duco for celluloid binding.

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## lenf12

How much money is riding on the answer?  :Laughing:  Your friend is correct for the most part. Hide glue was the traditional adhesive used in violin making. There are some applications where other adhesives like CA and woodworking glues are more appropriate in luthiery. 

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## MikeEdgerton

Hide Glue is a favorite topic here in this section. Here are two pages of discussions. It's an education unto itself.

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## Steevarino

Why hide glue?

I hide my glue so other people won't use it all up...

Oh, and I sometimes use hide glue for two reasons.  The first reason is that it is an easily reversible joint, should disassembly ever become necessarry.  Second, some people (myself included) believe that thhe use of hide glue will impart better tonal characteristics to the instrument.

The comment about luthiers not being woodworkers is pretty much assinine.  How would he know if a person is not both?  Several of the skills are transferrable, anyway.  I'd rather build guitars, etc. than cabinets or tables and chairs, thank you very much!



I also use LMI glue, Titebond Original, various cyanos, and epoxy from time to time, depending upon the application.

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## sunburst

I'm not a big believer in different glues "transmitting vibrations" differently and stuff like that. I think the biggest advantage of hide glue in instrument construction is it's resistance to plastic deformation or cold creep. As for the strength, hide glue joints have extremely high tensile strength but relatively low sheer strength. That can be an advantage in some repair situations. Joints made with Titebond et al are easily disassembled for repair, but the old adhesive is much more of a problem to deal with than old hide glue. Hide glue discolors wood less than just about any glue, so it has that advantage in lutherie.

No one glue or adhesive is "best" for everything, but hide glue has the best characteristics as an instrument glue in most joints in a new instrument and many repairs in existing instruments.

As for the friend's statement that luthiers are not woodworkers, that's ludicrous. It's true that many people get into building instruments without any formal or even informal training as woodworkers, and it's true that many aspects of lutherie violate traditional rules of woodworking to one degree or another, but it's also true that many luthiers are woodworkers first and/or woodworkers alongside their lutherie work. If I spend my work time building and repairing instruments made of wood, how can I not be a woodworker?

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## Rick Turner

Luthiers who build instruments out of wood are not woodworkers?  OK, many may not be carpenters or cabinet makers (though some of us have been, and I do mean professionally...), but I dare say that many luthiers know a lot more about woodworking than your average plywood humping cabinet shop wallah.  What is a woodworker, anyway?

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## John Flynn

Mike Compton told me that Steve Gilchrist jokingly refers to himself as a "wood butcher!" :Laughing:

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## Rick Turner

I'm once again going to put in a good word for DeGlueGoo...a gel that dissolves water based glues including HHG, Titebond, LMI white glue, etc.   It only works on glue on the surface, so it's perfect for cleanup.   It won't penetrate a glue joint...at least not unless you just soak it for a long, long time.

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## sunburst

Yep, DeGlue Goo is handy stuff.
As a side story, I'd heard of DeGlue Goo and wanted to give it a try and then I found out that the guy who makes the stuff was working where I used to work(!) and lives right over the mountain from me. A friend brought him by my shop one day, and when we were introduced I realized he was someone I worked for about 30 years ago! He's a trained woodworker and furniture restorer, and one of the main people from whom I've learned what I've learned about wood, wood movement, hand tools, power tools, finishing etc.. DeGlue Goo was developed by and is made by a true woodworker, it's not just a product of some corporate idea group or whatever.

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## Hans

Sorry, but if your friend thinks Luthiers are not woodworkers, he's an idiot (my apology, that makes me  :Mad: ). I have also been a cabinetmaker for 30+ years. Luthiers know more about glue, wood and finish than any run of the mill woodworker, cabinetmaker, furnituremaker, carpenter, finish carpenter, you name it. After all, what is an instrument but a fancy cabinet with strings built to incredible tolerances with miraculous joinery and with a stupendous finish?

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## MikeEdgerton

De-Glue Goo website

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## P Josey

Besides the already mentioned benefits of hide glue, I just enjoy the process of using it. Also I get a better sense of "oneness" between parts glued with hide glue..if that makes sense.

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## EdHanrahan

> ... also contends that luthiers are NOT woodworkers.


You bet!  Just like DaVinci wasn't a painter.  He probably never even _touched_ the broad side of a barn!

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## Tom C

> Sorry, but if your friend thinks Luthiers are not woodworkers, he's an idiot (my apology, that makes me ). I have also been a cabinetmaker for 30+ years. Luthiers know more about glue, wood and finish than any run of the mill woodworker, cabinetmaker, furnituremaker, carpenter, finish carpenter, you name it. After all, what is an instrument but a fancy cabinet with strings built to incredible tolerances with miraculous joinery and with a stupendous finish?



+ for luthiers , it's not just about looks. I do not care what my cabinets sound like.

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## Steevarino

Sorry, but this thing about luthiers not being woodworkers is sort of sticking in my craw, as they say.  Reminds me of an odd day I had a year or so ago.  A friend of mine had some awesome wood with an incredible back-story to it.  He invited me to come over and get some, to make a guitar for him, as well as some other instruments beyond that.  It just so happens he had invited Mr. WoodWorker to come over at the same time.  It was known that I was going to be making guitars and mandolins out of the wood I got.  Herr WoodWorker was going to make a bed.  Boy, did this Guru of the Lignins look straight down his long nose at me!  For every board I got, this guy soaked up ten or so.  It was an awkward situation, to say the least.  The weird thing was the vibe I was getting from this guy.  He was the Shizz, not me.  He made that very clear, leather pants and all, throwing out latin names like he really knew what he was talking about.  All the time, I was thinking of (but not saying) what great instruments those boards could have made...

Similar to Hans, I was a WoodWorker for more than 20 years before I started making instruments, building everything from simple furniture to computer-assisted production handweaving looms that sold for $30K plus (over a decade ago).  I can say that I have learned way more in my 10-15 years of luthing than I did in all the previous years of standard woodworking.

Well, now that I got that off my chest, I can check out that de-glue-goo stuff, and get a couple of necks ready for the J-45ish bodies that are hanging in the finish room.

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## Larry Simonson

Luthiery is the PhD level of woodworking!

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## Mandoviol

Luthiery - you take _wood_ and then you _work_ it into something that particularly can hold up to giant stresses on its frame and produce mellifluous frequencies, as has been aforementioned.

Regarding hide glue: I've always heard from violin makers that it's the glue of choice because it handles temperature and humidity changes well, allowing the instrument to swell and contract without breaking the bond (eventually the glue can separate, but it takes a long time--nearly 90 years in my violin's case).  They don't like a lot of yellow glues because these do not allow the instrument to move with the weather (case in point: my Pfretzschner violin came with the neck glued on with yellow glue.  There was a hole at the base of the neck where it had begun separating from the body of the instrument and you could see daylight on the other side).  Yellow glues also are supposed to make cracking easier because of their inelasticity.

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## Ivan Kelsall

It's all a question of the correct 'terminology' for the particular task in hand. If Hans was going to go back into the furniture business ie. 8-stringed wardrobes or some such,i'd think of him as a Cabinet Maker. But,in his current incarnation as a _Maker of fine musical instruments_,he's a 'Luthier'. A 'joiner' is usually somebody that fits doors or windows or other household wares. Traditionally a 'true' _joiner_,was a person who made joints in wood _without the use of nails_,so a luthier could be described as a _super-joiner_ with a musical bent. You'd usually employ a 'carpenter' to fit a staircase or new floorboards. But terminologies get a bit fractured as to their proper usage over time.
  Re.the question - having used both hide & fish glue in the distant past,i'll go with hide glue - i very nearly did a few times,when i cooked up a batch on my mother's cooker. Fish glue IMHO,has to be one of the smelliest substances on earth,but it's a great glue. Just make sure that you're well away from any inhabited area when you mix that stuff up,
                                                                                   Ivan :Grin:

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## sunburst

While we luthiers are bubbling up with indignation here about being called 'NOT woodworkers', let us remember that we didn't hear this from the source, but instead second hand. We don't know the context or the exact wording of the remark as it was said by the "friend". 
It could be that the "friend" meant luthiers are different in their glue needs from ordinary wood workers, or he might have meant that luthiers are 'beyond' wood workers, whatever, but as I said before, we luthiers work with wood when we work, so we are wood workers, and so are jointers, carpenters, cabinet makers, furniture makers etc..

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## Lefty Luthier

I have known no competent luthier that was not a talented woodworker. In my case, for years I built custom wood plugs from which fiberglass boat molds were cast, wood strip canoes and kayaks, and lots of custom furniture. The big difference is that most woodworkers don't have Masters Degrees in Structural Dynamics and 50 years as an acoustic researcher.

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## dorenac

This "friend" said that if PVA glues had existed back in the old days, then woodworkers would have never used hide glue.  And I said that he should contact some luthiers about that. He replied that luthiers weren't wood workers. It seems to me that although many other glues are available today as well as hide glue,  the latter still is, if not the preferred glue, is a glue of choice for many luthiers.  Not being a luthier, my assumption is that its acoustic properties have much to do with it.  

Actually this thread wasn't meant to instigate anything, it was meant as an innocent question about the interesting topic of glues and why hide glue still seems to hold its own when there are so many high tech choices these days.

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## sunburst

It comes down to using a suitable glue or adhesive for the purpose at hand. No one glue is perfect, and no one glue is best for all applications. There are furniture joints that can be handled better by other adhesives, and there are joints in lutherie that can be handled as well as hide glue by other adhesives, but hide glue's resistance to creep, resistance to dry heat, reversibility, color, hardness when dry, and ease of repair make it second to none for almost all joints in lutherie.
Hide glue is not the best glue for fly rods, canoes, or any objects that are to be used and kept mostly outdoors, etc.. The list of situations where hide glue is not the best choice is long, and since many of those situations have been around much longer than many "modern" adhesives, hide glue ended up being used for many of them. Is it any wonder that many woodworkers think it is inferior to "modern" adhesives, especially if they are only woodworkers don't understand lutherie and it's glue requirements?

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## Mario Proulx

Must...not...join... the glue...thread....

Must.....resist......

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## Elliot Luber

I never hide glue. It's always right out there on the counter. :-)

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## Rick Turner

Mario Proulx, PhG    Philosopher of Glume...

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## MikeEdgerton

Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hide Glue?

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## BadeInBulverde

Hmmmm ... I always felt like ... 

If I build something I'm going to "sit at or on", "sleep on" , "put something small in" or "hang my hat on" ... I was at the time a "woodworker" ... 

If I build something I will "live in", "park a car in" or "store something BIG like a horse or a lawn mower in" .... I was at the time a "carpenter" ... 

and ... 

If I build something that I "will string up and play ..." I was a luthier (or trying to be at least) ...  :Redface: 

Never realized it was one or the other ....  :Popcorn: 

Heck .. .sometimes I even weld metal things together ... making me a "metal worker" ... NOT however; a "metal sculptor"  ...

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## sprucetop1

> Most of us that use HHG (hot hide glue) use it because once it dries it's brittle and most of the white or yellow glues are rubbery. It just transmits vibrations better than anything else except maybe hot fish glue (whew!). It's easy to take apart, but is exceedingly strong when the parts fit. You can make rub joints with it, and it doesn't slide around much after it jells a little. 
> It's relatively simple to make up and stores in the freezer well for several weeks. Cleans up easily with a stick of wood and sands better than that rubbery stuff.
> What's not to like? 
> Regular Titebond is a second choice (aside from fish glue), but suffers from being rubbery and it creeps.
> Cyano works for inlay and certain small apps, same with epoxy and Weldon 16 or Duco for celluloid binding.



Hans......I see that you have found that Titebond Regular can suffer from creep.    I've built quite a few instruments over the last few years (banjos, guitars, mandolins, hammer dulcimers and violins) and have used hide glue exclusively on the violins, but both Titebond regular and hide glue for fretted insts. The guitars were built with all the joints glued with Titebond.   I have yet to see any creep issues with Titebond, and some of those insts. were built more than 20 years ago, and have been under full string tension all that time.   I would be grateful for advice as to where the use of Titebond Regular should be discouraged.........thanks....John

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

Don't think I saw any mention of one of hide glues greatest advantages... the ability to reactivate old glue with steam or by adding more glue to an open joint.  Just add a bit of hot glue, clamp it up, and you are good to go.  Modern glues require the joint to be cleaned up before any glue is added.

Woodworkers must carefully construct an item to stand up to years of use and apply a beautiful finish.  Luthiers must carefully construct an item to stand up to years of use, apply a beautiful finish AND make it sound good!   Maybe there is a difference. <G>  

Lynn

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## Charles E.

> must...not...join... The glue...thread....
> 
> Must.....resist......


 :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing:

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## nvanlaar

Not to take this off track, but I was told to store CA in the freezer to increase shelf life.  Is this true?  It seems this would encourage perspiration in the bottle if there is any air in it.  Does that effect CA?

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## MikeEdgerton

It's been discussed before, it's best stored cold.

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## DerTiefster

I have to say that if our O.P. of this thread was not in fact carefully crafting a "troll" post, he did the best job of it that I have ever seen done without intent.  When I read that first post, I was absolutely in awe.  He put into it exactly enough real information, added a question posed sufficiently innocently to be considered worth answering, added an inflammatory hook to really dress it all up, and then polished it off with another innocently posed realistic-looking question.  If he's innocent in all this, I hope he never actually tries to misbehave.

However, I must say that the answers I have read so far and personal stories accompanying them make it all worthwhile to me as a reader.  Thank you, dorenac.  No, this is not a troll, nor are any of my immediate family.

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## Michael Lewis

Oh my. :Popcorn:  :Laughing:  :Popcorn: 

There are none so blind as them who refuse to see.

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## John Arnold

> I was told to store CA in the freezer to increase shelf life. Is this true? It seems this would encourage perspiration in the bottle if there is any air in it. Does that effect CA?


I store my CA in the freezer before I open it. I developed that routine because I must use the odorless variety, which has a shorter shelf life. As long as I use it up in a month or two, I have had good luck with shelf life after it is opened. I do buy my CA from a supplier who has a lot of turnaround, so it is always fresh.
Water does affect CA, but the only condensation I ever see is when a cold bottle is brought out of the freezer. Once it warms up, the condensation goes away. 
I have used hide glue for years for repairs, and I like the way it works.
If you have ever seen a guitar built by a furniture maker, it would leave little doubt about who practices the higher form of woodworking. Norman Blake showed me a guitar made by a local carpenter. He attached the neck to the wider end of the body. As you may expect, it didn't have much bass.

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## Ivan Kelsall

*LeftyL.* -  Making wooden 'plugs' (what i term a 'master model' - nothing to do with Gibson either),you'd be what i know of as a _'pattern maker'_. You work from drawn contours to construct a wooden mold, from which either a fibreglass 'splash' can be made as a 'female' mold tool, or used as a 'male' mold tool to directly shape the item to be made,
                                                                                                 Ivan :Chicken:

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## dorenac

Once again I plead innocence in all its nuances or meanings.  You see I have two allegiances.  One to the bamboo rodmakers world to which I belong and another to mandolin players to which I belong.  And I have a great amount of awe for the makers/builders of both.  So when I hear someone making pronouncements that IMHO perhaps don't have the benefit of experience I can become a bit worked-up.

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## David Houchens

In my past life I was a stone mason. I guess my glue of choice then was portland cement. It doesn't reverse well.
Sometimes we used no glue at all. This reversed very well.
While not being a woodworker skill, we did cut up a lot of wood to fuel the fire under the waterbarrel in the winter.
I like hot hide glue, and will keep on using it.

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## PT66

If you were to rate glue on a scale of 1 to 10 with Elmers school glue at 1 and hot hide glue at 10 where would liquid hide glue fall, before or after titebond?

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## sunburst

Dave, I wasn't going to answer that question because there is no answer to the question the way it is asked, but then I realized there _is_ an answer, but the answer is a question;
What's the task?

If the task is for an experienced builder to glue a mandolin top to a mandolin rim, I'd put hot hide glue at "10".
If the task is for a first time builder to glue a mandolin top to the rim, I'd probaby put Titebond (or similar) at "10".
If the task is a craft project or a group of 6 year olds, I'd put school glue at "10"
If the task is to assemble something for temporary use and the joints take some time to assemble, liquid hide glue might be at "10".
If you're building a wooden canoe, epoxy would probably be "10".

All glues and adhesives would shuffle into different orders for every task, sometimes more than one is plenty good for the task at hand, some people will prefer different glues for the same task.

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## PT66

Lets say the task is a builder that doesn't do enough building to have hot hide glue. The task is joining two halves of a flat top. In the past I have used Titebond. Is liquid hide glue better or worse?

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## sunburst

I'd stick with Titebond. Liguid hide glue has a mixed reputation, but mostly a poor reputation.
The important thing, as always, is a good joint and good technique assembling the joint.

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## Larry Simonson

A friend recently gave me a fiddle that, according to her, was the worst instrument she had ever laid her bow to.  I being a beginning luthier (one mando kit and one from scratch -done with titebond) offered to have a look at this fiddle, knowing that there was no risk of harming it.   So I removed the belly- it came off cleanly in 30 min thanks to its hide glue construction.  I found the bass bar was cracked and the graduations quite thick so I'm fixin to mess with it and will want to glue it back on to see if I did it any good.  Now, the problem is that I have no experience with hot hide glue and can imagine that keeping that glue hot on that big stretch of a glue line and getting it clamped in exactly the right place is going to be a tricky.  I will get some hide glue and practice with it a bit but would appreciate any advice.

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## Mario Proulx

Do a few dry runs and time yourself; if you can get the top clamped back on within a minute, you're good to go. If not, work out your technique so that you can get it clamped within the minute; this means having all clamps handy and within arm's reach. Then warm the ribs and belly with a hair drier, quickly apply the glue, and go for it. And if you run out of time and it gels halfway around, no problem; as Lynn said, it reactivates 100%, so dip a brush into the hot water, and keep working your way around. Cellos and basses are done in sections; no problem there, either.

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## Larry Simonson

Thanks Mario for your help. This is a good learning opportunity for me- I really don't want to use titebond on a fiddle.   Maybe I'll get to be a hot hide glue advocate.

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## lastchair

> A friend recently gave me a fiddle that, according to her, was the worst instrument she had ever laid her bow to.  I being a beginning luthier (one mando kit and one from scratch -done with titebond) offered to have a look at this fiddle, knowing that there was no risk of harming it.   So I removed the belly- it came off cleanly in 30 min thanks to its hide glue construction.  I found the bass bar was cracked and the graduations quite thick so I'm fixin to mess with it and will want to glue it back on to see if I did it any good.  Now, the problem is that I have no experience with hot hide glue and can imagine that keeping that glue hot on that big stretch of a glue line and getting it clamped in exactly the right place is going to be a tricky.  I will get some hide glue and practice with it a bit but would appreciate any advice.


I was at a violin shop and talking to the repairman as he calmly clamped and glued back a violin top.  He basically had the glue over a hot plate, and a palette knife.  He preclamped the violin top in the right position position.  Then he went around the rim, loosening the clamp, dipping his palette knife into the glue, and inserting the glue into the space, tightened the clamp, loosened the next clamp, dip knife, insert glue, tightened the clamp, loose the next one, etc until he went all the way around.  Of course I'm sure he probably prepared the surfaces before I showed up, so I don't know what he did before clamping.

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## Herb H

> Why hide glue?
> 
> I also use LMI glue, Titebond Original, various cyanos, and epoxy from time to time, depending upon the application.


I've observed that when LMI glue squeeze-out is missed, and has to be cleaned up after drying, it is strong and rock hard.  On that basis, and the general good experience with it, I'd rank LMI as the number one substitute for HHG.

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## Charles E.

As lastchair said, clamp up the top dry ( starting with the C- bouts to line up the corners ) then when you have it where you want you can glue a section at a time, four or five clamps, reclamp and clean up the glue as you go. you will need to make a caul to fit under the fingerboard and is wide enough to clamp the top to the neck block.

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## D.E.Williams

It really is ignorance that some folks think that hide glue or fish glue (which I am using more and more these days) is a poor glue for "woodworking".  It would be correct if you were making outdoor furniture, or other things that don't have the requirements that so many others in this thread have stated so eloquently.  Not woodworkers?  I guess that's true.  We're also metal workers, and workers of shell and stone, and other inlay materials.  It's more like we're crafters of many things, and not limited to wood.  But last I knew, rosewood, and ebony, and maple, and mahogany and cherry and spruce, and cedar and redwood etc. etc. are all woods.  Making a statement that a luthier isn't a woodworker just shows the same ignorance.

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## Bill Snyder

> Lets say the task is a builder that doesn't do enough building to have hot hide glue.


How much building to you need to do to have hot hide glue? I ask because it can't be the cost and whether you build one a year or every two years or build ten a year you still have to make the batches the same way. There are several alternatives to the high priced glue pots.
Order some hide glue, get a _Little Dipper_ miniature crock pot and practice with it. I got my_ Little Dipper_ from Goodwill for $5 or less.

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## Mario Proulx

I visit Value Village, a second hand store of sorts, often, and have purchased Little Dipper crock pots for $1 to $2. I think I have 5 now. Yet my original Little Dipper is something like 5 years old and still working perfect. methinks that I have a lifetime's worth of glue pots <lol>

Frank Ford has neat ideas for users who need just a wee bit of hide glue at a time. The dry glue lasts indefinitely, so it surely isn't a cost issue. One pound of hide glue costs about the same as a bottle of Titebond or such, yet has no shelf life limit. In fact, while explaining hot hide glue to one person, he lit up and said "so, you use hide glue to save money!". God Bless his widow....

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## kyken

The biggest problem I have with hide glue is my dog sits and begs when I heat it up. I usually have to give him a little taste once in a while, good for his diareahahaha.....

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## jlsmandolin1952

If ya think about it, those old violin makers would probably have given their (whatever), to have some of the modern day glues available today?
                                               John

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## sunburst

If ya think about it, those old violin repairmen would probably have given those makers plenty of grief for using some of the modern day glues available today?

Actually, violin family instrument makers are about the only ones that have stayed with hide glue all along, and part of the reason is the dogmatic traditionalism that tends to be passed down among violin makers and their teachers. Makers of guitars and other instruments nearly abandoned the use of hide glue for years because of modern adhesives, their convenience and ease of use, and all the "propaganda" about the superiority of modern adhesives over the the old technology that is hide glue. It is only recently that the virtues of hide glue are being rediscovered, and now it tends to be thought of as a "deluxe" way of building; at least some companies use it's current desirability among the buyers as a way to charge more for using it, though it used to be their standard, so the "hype" can go both ways.

Things like this go on all the time. Leather was almost completely replaced by the "superior" vinyl for upholstery, polyester and nylon almost completely replaced wool and cotton in clothing, but in each case we eventually realize that the "superiority" of modern products over the tried and true is sometimes hype and "sales speak" and realize that the tried and true have their place among the newer products, and sometimes they are still "better".

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## Jim Hilburn

Since I'm not making glue joints all day and I only need hot glue occasionally I've gotten to where I first fill a jar with hot tap water and then heat that in the microwave for a couple of minutes. I still pour it in my crockpot but I don't even plug it in.
My glue is in a spice bottle in the frig and I nuke it for 10-20 seconds depending on how much is there and then put it into the hot water. I've usually brought the water right up to the 145 mark and I do my gluing within 5 minutes of starting the whole process.

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## jlsmandolin1952

Back in the days of the old luthiers, I believe they had 2 choices of glue. Hide glue and Hide glue?
            I agree with alot of the responses, and as well, when I restore an old violin, I still use hide glue myself, along with white glues. Depending on what I'm gluing.
                                         John

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## Ed Lee

Just a short comment: "Hide Glue" is often sold as "Rabbit skin glue", not that all hide glues originate from a rabbit source as other animal hides are also converted to such.  So far, my only utilization of a hide glue was to produce a stipple effect for improved hand grip ... nothing at all to relate to a musical instrument.  Correction - I did use it to bond boards in a table top in school workshop 60 years ago.

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## sunburst

Rabbit glue is usually _called_ rabbit glue. Here's a quote from Frank Fords frets.com:

"Hide glue is derived from the collagen found in animal hides. It is very similar to the gelatin we eat and is not toxic. In the U.S. edible gelatin is made from pork skins and hide glue from beef hides."

Frank has done his research and knows his glue.

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## Rick Turner

I just posted this over at the Australia/New Zealand Luthiers' Forum:

Glues I use in lutherie, where I use them, and a bit about why.

Hot hide glue
	Center seams for tops and backs	
	Gluing braces to tops and backs
	Bridges on acoustic instruments
	Kerfing for acoustic guitars
	Tops to sides on acoustic guitars

	Traditional, and still a favorite for many lutherie jobs.  May have tonal benefits because of how hard it cures.  Has better heat resistance than Titebond and other 	“carpenters’ glues”.  Very low cold creep.  Only good for well fit joints.  Reversible with moist heat.  New glue reconstitutes old so good in repairs of previous HHG glue work.

LMI white glue
	Peghead scarf joint
	Most assembly of semi-hollow guitar bodies

	This glue (I believe it to be a polyvinyl acetate..PVA) has the convenience of 	Franklin Titebond and other “carpenters’ glues”, yet cures much harder and seems to have some of the favorable qualities of hot hide glue.  It is known for low “cold creep”, a possible real factor with regard to tone and the need for neck resets on acoustic guitars.

WEST Epoxy
	Laminating necks
	Fingerboard joints
	Pore filling

	Developed initially for the purpose of making cold molded yachts by the Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique.  Cures hard and very clear; great for bonding difficult to glue woods; does not introduce water into the glue line; joints can be taken apart with heat if need be.

Franklin Polyurethane
	Center block to tops on semi hollow Renaissance guitars
	Laminating layered “skate boards” for “back strap” peghead overlays

	I generally do not use any water with the PU glue, and so it’s great for gluing the 	centerblocks onto cedar, spruce, or other wood tops as the glue line does not 	telegraph through very much.  With peghead overlays, again, the lack of water 	makes for a stable layup without subsequent shrinkage as you’d get with the LMI white glue or HHG.  

Thin Superglue
	Frets
	Inlay dots
	Some polyester finish repair
	Some binding work
	Some quick repairs

	Take care with accelerator as it can cause foaming of the glue.  Works well with baking soda as a temporary nut slot filler when the slots are too deep.

Thick Superglue
	Inlay
	Some binding work
	Quick repairs
	Making jigs and fixtures
	Bonding carbon fiber to wood

Duco and other acetone based glues
	Binding (plastic/celluloid)

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## fishtownmike

I just want to state I build instruments and I am NOT a woodworker. I am a wood artisan. :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:   I don't use hide glue. I prefer LMI's instrument makers glue but i am also planing on trying fish glue....Mike

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## Mario Proulx

*In the U.S. edible gelatin is made from pork skins and hide glue from beef hides.*

Regular Mulligan & Higgins(spelling?) hide glue is beef, while their high clarity is pork. either one is available in all strength grades, only difference being the slight color of regular and the nearly clear color of the high clarity glues. I began on regular and switched to high clarity when I bought my barrel in 2000. They're about the same to work with, but apart from the clarity/lack of, I'd argue the smell of the high clarity is much milder, and very pleasing, also.

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## David Houchens

The hide glue I use is from LMI. I don't know if its beef or pork. Might grill some this afternoon and see if I can tell.

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## Mario Proulx

Is it clear and transparent? If not, it's regular(most likely). A one inch thick, jelled lump(I make a one cup batch of glue at a time, let it gel, and cut it into small cubes to freeze) of high clarity glue is only slightly amber, and I can read a newspaper through that one inch lump. There's no advantage to the glue other than it being as invisible as possible, especially on spruce joins, but I figured since I was buying a lifetime's worth, I may as well ante up for the pretty stuff  :Wink:

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## Rick Turner

Pork glue mandolins are trafe...

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## D.E.Williams

> I began on regular and switched to high clarity when I bought my barrel in....


 :Disbelief: 

Mario, leave it to you to buy a barrel full of the stuff !
 :Laughing:

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## Mario Proulx

T'was a bargain! Can't resist a good bargain  :Smile:

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## RJinRI

> . Joints made with Titebond et al are easily disassembled for repair, but the old adhesive is much more of a problem to deal with than old hide glue.


Could someone direct me to a good method/procedure that explains how to repair a Titebond (original) joint
thanks

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## sunburst

In many cases, if the parts fit very well and all is clean, all you need to do is add more hot hide glue to the joint and clamp. The old glue will re-hydrate from the moisture in the new glue and bond with the new glue. If the joint needs to be cleaned and/or re-fit, there is no need to remove all remnants of old hide glue because it will bond with the new glue.
Titebond won't do that, so for the best repair joints, all old glue must be removed.

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## Paul Kotapish

As mentioned above, Frank Ford (Gryphon) has been a crusader for HHG. Here are a couple of interesting pages from his research:

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luth.../gluetest.html
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luth.../hideglue.html
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luth...gluechart.html

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## Rick Turner

For glue removal and cleanup, check out "De-Glue Goo", and acetic acid product that melts hot hide glue, Titebond, and other PVA glues.

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## Dale Ludewig

I just tuned into this thread and it is to me :  a hoot!  One of the reasons I visit this site every day.  It really seems to show how much knowledge is out there for free.  The question re: hot hide glue is not the issue, or I don't think it's the main one.  It's how much knowledge is shared.  What a wonderful thing.  Very cool.

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## Rolfe

I use epoxies, mostly LMI All Wood, because epoxy cures nearly as hard as hide glue, gives more time for part positioning, fills gaps better, and is not sensitive to moisture.  Some luthiers believe it cannot be taken apart, but heat (270 degrees) will break it down, and I have removed and reglued fingerboards and other parts that were epoxied.  I also use it for fretting as I have long been a fan of the Teeter method.  I can refret a Teeter-style fingerboard in an hour and a half not counting curing time.  I try to build right in the first place and not take into consideration later disassembly.  And, over three decades of epoxy use, the only times the joint has failed have been glue starvation (my fault, obviously).  Never had tone bars come loose.

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## MikeEdgerton

> For glue removal and cleanup, check out "De-Glue Goo", and acetic acid product that melts hot hide glue, Titebond, and other PVA glues.


Here's a link to the manufacturers site.

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## David Newton

Rolfe.
I think you are one of the "old greats" in this field.
It inspires me to know that a builder can choose a method and materials, continue to refine it's use and find success, and not follow blindly every wind of change that comes along.

P.S. I poked around your shop, one day that you were gone, in San Antonio. I hope I didn't mess anything up.

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## Rolfe

> Rolfe.
> I think you are one of the "old greats" in this field.
> It inspires me to know that a builder can choose a method and materials, continue to refine it's use and find success, and not follow blindly every wind of change that comes along.
> 
> P.S. I poked around your shop, one day that you were gone, in San Antonio. I hope I didn't mess anything up.


So you were the one who took the Loar quartet!!!!   Thanks for the kind words, David.

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## Gail Hester

I removed my post when I realized it was an old thread.

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## polkat

Of course we are wood workers, but more importantly, we are wood artists as well. I'd bet that most luthiers have far more skills in small wood working then any carpenter does (no offense to carpenters on this board!)!

Anyway, I read a study somehwere that traditional hide glue was tested against other glues for transmitting tonal waves between wood pieces, and found to be far superior to all others (in that respect). Not sure where I read it, but it was on the internet. It's probably also the easiest glue to clean up once clamps are set. And if an old hide glue joint is clean, it can be reglued without removing the old glue. There are other advantages, but as an early poster here said...what's not to like? Liquid hide glue (at least the stuff made by Franklin) is pretty useless in instrument making (even though they show a violin on the lable:-). It has preservatives in it that lower the strength, and it creeps when cured. When I first started learning to make violins, I used it. I hung that violin strung up and tuned, on my wall. One 100degree summer day I sat in a chair and watched that violin peel itself apart and fall to the floor. I'll never use it again, although I guess it has it's places.

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## Capt. E

The fact that hide glue does not hold up out doors is one reason windsor style chairs were developed. Not a spot of glue in them, but held together with splines and pins. They were originally outdoor furniture. One reason most 18th century examples have lost at least some of their feet over the years from exposure to the wet and the dirt. Chairmaking is another woodworking specialty I admire, especially makers of windsors. Doesn't come up to the level of lutherie, however.

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