# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  Six songs to define bluegrass

## Ted Lehmann

I'm reading a book called This is Your Brain on Music by Daniel Levitin, a neuropsychologist who has also been a rock musician, record producer and more. At one point he is asked by a mentor at Stanford to choose six songs that would "capture all of rack and roll."
Here are the songs he chose:

1) "Long Talll Sally," Little Richard
2) "Roll Over Beethoven," The Beatles
3) "All Along the Watchtower," Jimi Hendrix
4} "Wonderful Tonight," Eric Clapton
5) "Little Red Corvette," Prince
6) "Anarchy in the U-K," the Sex Pistols

What six songs would you choose to define bluegrass for a person who doesn't know the music, but who is interested? - Ted

Ted Lehmann
www.tedlehmann.blogspot.com

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## Rick Schmidlin

UM?

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## mandopete

No.

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## bradeinhorn

hmm...good one....

probably a monroe burner, monroe waltz, monroe blues, monroe gospel, major instrumental and minor instrumental (by monroe). that would cover all the bases in six songs, right?

i like my answer.

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## Peter Hackman

Define "define".

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## MikeEdgerton

It might be easier to define "define" than to define "bluegrass".

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## AlanN

Oh no, please...no....

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## sgarrity

Bill, Lester and Earl with Chubby and Howard singin' about broken hearts, lost love and hard times.....that there is bluegrass! Talk amongst yourselves

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## Jkf_Alone

1. Uncle Pen
2. Muleskinner Blues
3. I saw the Light
4. Shady Grove
5. Kentucky Mandolin
6. Feasting Tonight

Why all bill monroe? because he was bluegrass. to me he was the innovator and someone who played the way he played because thats how he did it. I love Ralph Stanley as well, but dont really consider what he did bluegrass, as he was just as much an innovator. you can call the music of Ralph, Bill, Doyle, heck even nickel creek Bluegrass if it makes it easier to define, but really the artists in acoustic music define themselves. pretty much the only music i dont like is when people try to define it too closely (contemporary country, Rap) and the kind with Kazoos

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## Peter Hackman

Somehow it's typical that out of #the six tunes proposed only two are true Bluegrass originals.

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## Jkf_Alone

the reason for that is to show that bluegrass is a flavor that bill monroe added to the tunes he did. as i said in my previous post i said he played because thats how he liked to play basically. i saw the light was written by bill monroe and hank williams, kentucky mandolin was written by bill, muleskinner i think was too and who else could have written uncle pen?

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## Jkf_Alone

why so many groans and eye rolls after teds post? if you dont like the thread you dont have to read it.

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9lbShellhamer, 

Bernie Daniel, 

Timbofood

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## mandopete

Combining the words "define" and "bluegrass" should be forbidden.

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## MikeEdgerton

Oh no, somebody actually listed songs. That's not fun.

Who was this Bill Moroe guy anyway, do I know him, is he a folk singer?

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## Jkf_Alone

what he asked for was a series of songs that you would give someone who is interested in bluegrass, but not sure where to start. not a list that contains every aspect of a genre. I am far younger than most people on this board, and am the only person in my group of friends and aquaintances i know that listens to bluegrass beyond nickel creek. if someone asked me "hey where did this style that nickel creek plays come from?" i would burn them the songs mentioned and give them an idea of what to listen for. i am 27 by the way as of 9/4 ( wow it feels strange to say that, 3 years away from geritol)I heard old country as a child (only live music in my area) and bluegrass as a teenager then activly started listening to it about 3 years ago, to me its new and more modern than anything ive heard. it strips away all the junk from folk music and gets to the heart, as someones quote says "through the nose"

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## Mike Bunting

I like bradinborn's answer and Jimmy Rogers wrote Muleskinner Blues (Blue Yodel #8)

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## Jkf_Alone

thanks mike. like i said i havent been around the music that long. i guess i just wish someone would have posted the answer i did when i started listening to the style.

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## Tim

> Somehow it's typical that out of #the six tunes proposed only two are true Bluegrass originals.


To the extent this is possible, that is exactly why those work (although probably need a particular performance note). #Bluegrass wasn't a completely new thing, it was a mixture of a lot of parts of existing things. #Songs like Muleskinner, not a bluegrass original could be the prime example of what bluegrass is, especially if contrasted with the Jimmy Rogers version.

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9lbShellhamer

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## Tim

Also, to the "thread detractors": #When attempts to define bluegrass come up on this board, the general answer is that it can't be defined but "I know it when I hear it". #Asking for a few songs that give examples of the genre seems to be a logical question after that answer.

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9lbShellhamer

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## Peter Hackman

> the reason for that is to show that bluegrass is a flavor that bill monroe added to the tunes he did. as i said in my previous post i said he played because thats how he liked to play basically. i saw the light was written by bill monroe and hank williams, kentucky mandolin was written by bill, muleskinner i think was too and #who else could have written uncle pen?


I meant no criticism; simply an observation on the role and position of
BG in relation to other traditions. 

Mule Skinner Blues (or Blue Yodel No. 8) was recorded by Jimmie Rodgers in 1930, who probably put it together, at least in part, from various traditional sources. Monroe transformed it into something even bluesier, in a higher key, with long instrumental interludes - in that respect it is archetypically BG. The same could be said about Uncle Pen that integrates a fiddle tune with a simple story song and quotes a traditional fiddle tune at the end
 Yes, they could be on my list. 

I Saw the Light was recorded by Hank Williams in 1948. I doubt very strongly that Monroe had anything to do with it. It's credited to Williams, but Fred Rose may have helped with it.

If I were to list a gospel song as "defining" BG, I would rather pick Protect My Soul or Get Down on Your Knees and Pray,
 which have a much stronger traditional feel.

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## Jkf_Alone

ok heh, i guess i dont have the bluegrass cred to defend my post, someone else please just post 6 songs so they can get it.

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## sgarrity

1. Uncle Pen
2. Bluegrass Special (or Foggy Mtn Special, your choice)
3. Kentucky Waltz
4. Jerusalem Ridge
5. I'm On My Way Back To the Old Home (right title??)
6. What Would You Give In Exchange For Your Soul

Now see what y'all made me go an do?

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## entau

I actually don't see where "wonderful tonight" fits in to the 6 rock songs - so I've been scratchin my head from the first post

funny - when Peter Schickely ( forgive the spelling please)played an example of bluegrass on his Schickely mix show - he did not play Monroe - he played Earnest Stoneman
- not that Peter Schickely is in the know about bluegrass - but his show was about displaying various musical concepts to an relatively generic audience.

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## kelvin

Ok I will have a stab at it, but the only way I can answer is to list the six songs that define bluegrass to me. so here it goes
1. Blue Moon of Kentucky performed by Bill Monroe
2. Foggy Mountain Breakdown performed by Flatt and Scruggs
3. Nellie Kane performed by Hot Rize
4. On the Boulevard performed by New Grass Revival
5. Uncle Pen performed by Bill Monroe
6. Salty Dog Blues performed by Flatt and Scruggs

These songs exposed me to not only traditional forms of bluegrass but new and experimental ways to play. 

Just my two cents

Kelvin

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DavidKOS

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## bradeinhorn

I'll take some of the heat off him since this is interesting. many of these i feel can be substituted of course, but i like my general formula stated up above as best possible way to capture "bluegrass". Not that it really matters as his versions/arrangments were so definitive, but sorry if these aren't all written by monroe.

1) On My Way Back to the Old Home
2) Blue Moon of Kentucky
3) Wicked Path of Sin
4) Blue Night
5) Gold Rush
6) Jerusalem Ridge

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## Jkf_Alone

GREAT! this is what i was expecting when i saw this thread. I almost Sgarrity i almost put "what would you give" in, but ive only ever heard it done by Bill and Doc, I love the mandolin fills on that song.

i would probably add soldiers joy - bill and doc as well

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## bradeinhorn

i think the coolest version of soldier's joy i've heard is Doc and Dawg.

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## Jkf_Alone

I'll have to give that a listen sometime. I havent listened to much grisman yet.

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## sgarrity

You want cool versions of Soldier's Joy???

Doc and Dawg -- Lightening fast
The Little Grasscals -- Compton does a chord position break that is amazing
Monroe Documentary -- The master himself sits on the couch and tears it up

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## Tighthead

For ME (and probably no one else, and in no particular order):

1. Raw Hide
2. All the Good Times are Past and Gone
3. Molly & Tenbrooks
4. Blue Grass Breakdown
5. The Old Home Place
6. Roanoke

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DavidKOS

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## Peter Hackman

My answer is not to be taken too seriously, just a game we're playing.

I wouldn't give only tunes associated with Monroe; Bluegrass is the *genre* it is because other people elaborated on the concept. So my list would have to include something by the early pioneers other than Monroe, but also later songs that in various ways opened new directions, reached new audiences, etc.

Two such songs would be:

6. Bringing Mary Home, Country Gentlemen
5. Rocky Top or some other tune associated with the Osborne Brothers
(e.g., Up this Hill and Down)

Pioneers: would have to be the Stanley Brothers and Flatt&Scruggs

4. Little Glass of Wine or Girl Behind the Bar (Stanleys)
3. Dim Lights, Thick Smoke (Flatt & Scruggs). 


Then, inevitably, two Monroe numbers

2. Uncle Pen (which couldn't really be mistaken for an "old-timey" number,
nor a country cover, of which Monroe recorded quite a few).

1. Mule Skinner Blues, his first number on the Opry, his first recording with a band, his first number as solo singer, the tune that defined the beat, and some of the group dynamics of the genre. Also, his opening number
on most of the live performances I watched (his second number was just as often Uncle Pen).

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DavidKOS

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## hoffmannia2k7

who cut more side, ernest stoneman, gid tanner, or bill monroe? just curious

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## swolock

I'm a beginner mandolin player and not very familiar with the bluegrass repertoire, but I would like to learn a set of bluegrass standards. Asking for a top 6 or top 10 or top 100 is an excellent way to understand the bluegrass catalog. Just like in movies, books, and music in other styles, top lists are a fine way to appreciate the collection as well as what people are enjoying at the time. If there isn't already one, #I would like to see a poll of the bluegrass all-time top 100. That would give me a solid list to begin working through.javascript**:emoticon('')

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## mrbook

Can't You Hear Me Callin'
Foggy Mountain Breakdown
Jerusalem Ridge
I'm Blue, I'm Lonesome
Blue Moon of Kentucky
Head Over Heels

Not necessarily in that order

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9lbShellhamer

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## Kapellmeister

Foggy Mountain Breakdown
Uncle Pen
Blue Moon Of Kentucky
Rocky Top
Roll In My Sweet Baby's Arms
Workin' On A Building

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DavidKOS

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## Bradley

[QUOTE]I love Ralph Stanley as well, but dont really consider what he did bluegrass...

I understand that point, but if you would travel down into Eastern Ky and the Virginias you would have a totally different reply that goes something like..."The Stanley Brothers are what everything else is measured by"....

Not trying to start a flame, but just adding a regional perspective......

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## Jkf_Alone

bradley i agree with ya, but im just saying what the stanley Bros did was dramatically different than what bill did in songwriting, performing and vocal harmonies. it was in some ways more hard edged than what bill did. also thier harmonies sounded at times more african (black lady mombassa?) than appalachian. thats what i love about them, they didnt try to copy each other all that much.

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## DuffDaddy

1. That's All Right Mama - Elvis Presley
2. Seventeen - Beatles
3. Voodoo Child Slight Return - Jimi Hendrix
4. Satisfaction - Rolling Stones
5. Rock N Roll - Led Zeppelin
6. Like a Rolling Stone - Dylan

what was that question again?

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DavidKOS

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## Nick Alberty

Six songs to define bluegrass.....that's hard to tell. I think six good ones (though there may be more)...are:

1: Blue Moon Of Kentucky (of course)
2: Sunny Side Of The Mountain
3: Rocky Top
4: Foggy Mountain Breakdown
5: Lonesome Pine
6: Fox On The Run

These are my picks....some old, some new, some overplayed...but all give a good feel for what bluegrass is.

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DavidKOS

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## Peter Hackman

> bradley i agree with ya, but im just saying what the stanley Bros did was dramatically different than what bill did in songwriting, performing and vocal harmonies. it was in some ways more hard edged than what bill did. also thier harmonies sounded at times more african (black lady mombassa?) than appalachian. thats what i love about them, they didnt try to copy each other all that much.


By that reasoning, Bluegrass music has never existed.

The reason we (sometimes) do speak of Bluegrass as a _genre_, or, better, a *tradition* is
that some people took off from Monroe's '45 group and developed that concept in various directions. These people were to a varying extent innovators - some of them a lot more than the Stanleys -
 but hardly originators: there simply is no "Cut-Up music" or "Clinch Mountain music", or even "Foggy Mountain music".

Were it not for those people we would simply speak of Monroe and 
(maybe) his imitators and probably Monroe's own style would have developed in directions none of us can imagine for lack of new sidemen to fill the roles of the old ones. Just as it indeed changed quite a bit in the Victor and early Columbia days.

In the years just after the formation of Monroe's group with Flatt and Scruggs the Stanleys followed him close enough to 
cause Monroe to leave Columbia when that company signed the Stanleys.
I need not recount the full story which is clearly documented in Rosenberg's History, pp. 80-85. I also recommend Neils' article "From Sound to Style",
which I believe was reprinted in Bluegrass Unlimited.

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## fatt-dad

re: Soldier's Joy. It's only a song if you are singing the lyrics. Versions that do not include the lyrics should not be in a list of "Songs" that define Bluegrass. Maybe a list of "Tunes" that define Bluegrass.

Not trying to play the cop, but. . . . . 

fatt otherwise-I'm-not-willing-to-play dad

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## Jkf_Alone

Fatt , then several lists here are invalid by your reckoning.

Pete, no genre really exists, its just a catch all to easily identify music. What defines a genre is a subjective thing from person to person. someone who has only heard 3rd generation Bluegrass might not call 1st generation stuff bluegrass. think jazz, if someone has only heard smooth jazz from the radio all their life, would they consider the out-their stuff jazz? probably not.

i guess my point is this, the posts here should be simply stated and amended, rather than twiggling on the fipply points.

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## lgc

Someone who's only heard third gen BG is ignorant and there opinion is less valid than someone who is more fully informed. Sure, the definition is subjective but it's still has to be informed. Just because someone hasn't heard music before a certain point doesn't mean that it ceases to have existed. At least I hope that's not the case.     

Best soilders joy-Holy Modal Rounders

Bold General Washington and old Rochambeau
Buggering the hessians while the fire light's aglow
Spending all their money, drinking all their pay
They're never going to end the war this a way.

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Timbofood

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## fatt-dad

I think "Hail to the Redskins" by the Seldom Scene should be on a list (even though they don't sing the lyrics and really blew it yesterday).
I think NGR's Lonesome Fiddle Blues (again, no lyrics) should be on some list too.
I like "The Old Homeplace" - now that's a good bluegrass song.

You guys can finish the list, but I got you half way there.

f-d

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## Jkf_Alone

Igc, I agree. some consider my opinion less valid because i have little interest in 3rd generation BG though. I'm sure there are some wonderful bands out there, but since BG is only a portion of my listening, it is usually a 1st generation album that I pick up when i have a hankerin for new music. 1st generation stuff is usually cheaper too.

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## keymandoguy

For those of you who dont know Bill Monroe wouldnt play rocky top as he said he was a member of MART which stood for musicians against Rocky Top. So since he was the Inovator is Rocky Top bluegrass ?

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DavidKOS

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## lgc

He didn't say it wans't BG, jst that he wouldn't play it.

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## Peter Hackman

> For those of you who dont know Bill Monroe wouldnt play rocky top as he said he was a member of MART #which stood for musicians against Rocky Top. So since he was the Inovator is Rocky Top bluegrass ?


The originator of a tradition (and in this case the BG tradition originated with a specific *group*) doesn't own it. Tradition can't be controlled - it lives by 
evolution.

I would say that the Osborne Brothers, in spite of added drums, piano, and even pedal steel (on record, in the 60's) were much more part of that tradition
tha,n say, many "progressive BG" bands (a statement that has nothing to do with
personal preferences).

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## Peter Hackman

> Pete, no genre really exists, its just a catch all to easily identify music. What defines a genre is a subjective thing from person to person. someone who has only heard 3rd generation Bluegrass might not call 1st generation stuff bluegrass. think jazz, if someone has only heard smooth jazz from the radio all their life, would they consider the out-their stuff jazz? probably not.


Well, as I emphasized in *boldface*, it's more meaningful to speak of
Bluegrass as a *tradition*. And there is indeed such a tradition
originating in the Monroe-Flatt-Scruggs group
(and in none of Monroe's earlier groups).
 A tradition that starts with
various people modeling their sound and group interaction on the MFS group, then branching out 

Some of the manifestations of such a tradition is
sidemen serving apprenticeship with established groups, then striking out on their own, performers sitting in with one another, backstage jams, and, at least in the late 60's, festivals. In spite of individual stylistic differences 
there were certain core values that enabled musicians to come togehter
in impromptu performances, sometimes on stage, sometimes in the parking lot.


The Stanleys were *very much* a part of this tradition, in fact one of the very first bands to copy elements of Monroe's style, before including other, often older, influences, such as the Carter Family. That gave them a clear and strong identity, but that alone doesn't make them true innovators,
not at the level of invention of Sonny Osborne, Don Reno, Richard Greene,
and a few others.

As a tradition can only survive by evolution it's futile to define the genre.
People who do, rather define their preferences, and stick to them.
 Here's lots of stuff
that I don't like and acknowledge as part of the bluegrass tradition.
I don't know if there's much of it left today, as I haven't followed the 
tradidition after the early 70's.

The list I made was not a list of personal favorites. I tried to pick songs of some historic significance, songs that established the tradition, and songs that pointed to new directions. In that respect I should have picked an older 
Flatt&Scruggs piece, from the Mercury days, perhaps Will the Roses Bloom,
or Doin' My Time.

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DavidKOS

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## Jkf_Alone

pete, We've already established you got more bluegrass cred than me. i guess i can see your point on genre vs. tradition, but there is a new thread on old time that kinda sums up what i'd say about genres or traditions. this thread here has gotten pretty far off topic, and it is partially my fault. I will truely bow out from commenting any further on this particular topic and return to lurking

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## powercat

After reading through the first page of this thread, I was worried that no one was going to mention "Rocky Top".  As a kid, I think that was my first exposure to bluegrass, and still one of my favorite tunes to this day.

I would add "Wayfaring Stranger" in there somewhere, as well as "Walls of Time".

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Darren Bailey, 

DavidKOS

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## Bing Cullen

I wouldn't have chosen those particular songs in the first post to define Rock and roll because Beatles is a cover of Chuck Berry's song and they do the Chuck Berry arrangement basically...and just about any Chuck Berry song from the 50's would give anyone a fair idea of what rock and roll is. The same idea could be extended to this thread...what songs would you be able to play to someone to illustrate what bluegrass music is? Didn't use the word define. To me Bluegras has to be a song which is kicked off by an instrument to set the tempo and mood and outline the melody, then the song is sung in a strong and clear high voice telling a story, then a chorus is sung echoing the theme of the first verse. 
The chorus may include two or three more voices singing harmmony parts from bass to tenor, then an instrument (fiddle, mandolin, banjo, guitar, or dobro)plays a verse closely approaching the melody of the song, sometimes repeating the verse in an improvised or syncopated manner. The song continues verse/chorus/break till its logical conclusion (storywise) and every one finishes together in a crescendo or sometimes whatever is musically opposite to a crescendo...a descendo? Having said that I'd nominate say any Bill Monroe gospel song...The old Crossroads, then Heavy traffic Ahead maybe. Then there's Closeby...not a typical format but to me the twin fiddles and the general theme seems to epitomise Bluegrass. Stanley Brothers White Dove and Flatt and Scruggs Little Cabin Home would be enough to show anyone the original stuff. But then Bill Monroe wouldn't have a dobro in his band.

That would be enough to illustrate it, then you'd need to jump ahead to Alison Krauss's Everytime you say Goodbye and Chris Thile's Ode to a Butterfly to show where its got to now.:p

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DavidKOS

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## AlanN

Bing,

Bada-bing-bada-boom!

You nailed it.

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## mando-tech

> I meant no criticism; simply an observation on the role and position of
> BG in relation to other traditions. 
> 
> Mule Skinner Blues (or Blue Yodel No. 8) was recorded by Jimmie Rodgers in 1930, who probably put it together, at least in part, from various traditional sources. Monroe transformed it into something even bluesier, in a higher key, with long instrumental interludes - in that respect it is archetypically BG. The same could be said about Uncle Pen that integrates a fiddle tune with a simple story song and quotes a traditional fiddle tune at the end
>  Yes, they could be on my list. 
> 
> I Saw the Light was recorded by Hank Williams in 1948. I doubt very strongly that Monroe had anything to do with it. It's credited to Williams, but Fred Rose may have helped with it
> 
> If I were to list a gospel song as "defining" BG, I would rather pick Protect My Soul or Get Down on Your Knees and Pray,
>  which have a much stronger traditional feel.


   FYI-Monroe's version of Muleskinner Blues lacks a lot of the JR credentials,...you should know that Rodgers said "pint of booze" instead of "walking cane", and "mule's behind" instead of "any old time" !

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## mando-tech

> 1. Uncle Pen
> 2. Bluegrass Special (or Foggy Mtn Special, your choice)
> 3. Kentucky Waltz
> 4. Jerusalem Ridge
> 5. I'm On My Way Back To the Old Home (right title??)
> 6. What Would You Give In Exchange For Your Soul
> 
> Now see what y'all made me go an do?


   - No. 1 is a good choice.
   - No. 2 is a bad choice.
   - No. 3 is too short, Bill should have written another verse !
   - N0. 4 is a great tune, but not a good choice, -its too difficult for the common   
     musician !
   - No. 5 is a great choice, ...couldn't agree more!
   - No. 6 is a bad choice, its an old, old, sacred song that's been in the hymn books 
     for ages !!

     Lets face it, not all people have the ability or insight to know what is a great BG
     song !

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DavidKOS

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## Bill McCall

In no particular order:

Nine Pound Hammer
Ridin that Midnite Train
I'm Gonna Sleep with One Eye Open
Cryin Holy Unto the Lord
Rollin in My Sweet Baby's Arms
Hello City Limits

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DavidKOS

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## Darren Bailey

Right now I'd pick anything off Grasstowne 4 - what a fantastic Bluegrass album. As for the past...

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Rush Burkhardt

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## DavidKOS

> I'm reading a book called This is Your Brain on Music by Daniel Levitin, a neuropsychologist who has also been a rock musician, record producer and more. At one point he is asked by a mentor at Stanford to choose six songs that would "capture all of rack and roll."
> Here are the songs he chose:
> 
> 1) "Long Talll Sally," Little Richard
> 2) "Roll Over Beethoven," The Beatles
> 3) "All Along the Watchtower," Jimi Hendrix
> 4} "Wonderful Tonight," Eric Clapton
> 5) "Little Red Corvette," Prince
> 6) "Anarchy in the U-K," the Sex Pistols
> ...


Before we get to that, that's a pretty odd list. I can see the first ones ( and not the best Beatles choice!!!), but not the last three...and there would be lots better tunes. 

Frankly 6 songs cannot define a genre. Period.

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## DavidKOS

> 1. That's All Right Mama - Elvis Presley
> 2. Seventeen - Beatles
> 3. Voodoo Child Slight Return - Jimi Hendrix
> 4. Satisfaction - Rolling Stones
> 5. Rock N Roll - Led Zeppelin
> 6. Like a Rolling Stone - Dylan
> 
> what was that question again?


A much better list!

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## Ole Joe Clark

Pop corn for sale: $2.00 per bag.  :Whistling:   :Popcorn:

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## T.D.Nydn

My choices: rawhide,,little Maggie,,foggy mountain breakdown,,orange blossum special,,Sally Goodin,,,black mountain rag,,,,,,,the seconds that didn't make the list,,,,: the theme to the Jetsons,,,happy birthday to you,,,soundtrack to Godzilla vs. king ghidorah,,zigeunerweisen,,an opticians eye chart,,,wake up dead,,,

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DavidKOS

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## Willie Poole

We all know that now days there isn`t a true definition of Bluegrass, the new songs have strayed away from the traditional sound so far that it just about makes it impossible to define it, BUT you`ll know it when you hear it.....Just having a guitar, banjo, fiddle, mandolin and a bass doesn`t make it bluegrass in my opinion...

    Willie

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## jaycat

> 2. Seventeen - Beatles


?? Huh ??

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## DavidKOS

> ?? Huh ??


"I Saw Her Standing There"

"Seventeen" may have been an early alternate title.

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## crisscross

Didn't read the whole thread, but to me as an outsider, BG seems more a certain way of playing and arranging music, than a genre known for its special features in composing music. You can arrange pretty much any tune as a BGtune as long as it isn't full of sophisticated jazz chords. Give it a 5string banjo played scruggs style, a mandolin doing chop chords, a flatpicked guitar, a fiddle and it soon turns into BG.
Take the same tune, add some drums and an electric guitar played through a Marshall stack and it becomes rock.
Play it on a flamenco guitar with lots of rasguados and golpes and it becomes flamenco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsbGXUdse8

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DavidKOS

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## crisscross

> Why all bill monroe? because he was bluegrass. to me he was the innovator and someone who played the way he played because thats how he did it.


What I miss in this discussion are objective criteria as to what makes a song BG, like for example a figured bass is typical for baroque music. So what are the typical songwriting characteristcs that sets a BG song apart from an up-tempo country song?

One of my favorite songs is "John Hardy":
played by the Bluegrass Allstars it becomes, well...BG


played by Leadbelly it becomes folk-blues


played by Uncle Tupelo it becomes alt-country

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## Timbofood

I've waited a while to say anything here but, I have to weigh in with an agreement about "first generation" Bluegrass
As a genre I see it not being all Bill Monroe but, as more the whole circle of early road pounders, farm report singers, all the draining time spent sharing this music with the "outside world".
They were the defining purveyors without whom this genre would still be locked in the hills.
By that I really mean all the old guys.
Monroe
The Stanley's
Don Reno
Flatt and Scruggs
Red Allen
And later, The Country Gentlemen

I use the The Country Gentlemen as the "bridge" from the "old guard" to the new blood and style. After the gents, at least, to me the sound changes due to new music and, the "folk" influence. Not that is bad, far from it, the newer performers have done much to promote and broaden the appreciation of a music which I deeply enjoy.
In some ways I feel a bit like Doyle Lawson and Quicksilver have really driven the "slicker" sound. Without that influence, I do not see the diversity of so many new "hot" bands ever coming into focus.
It was time for the music to change, the guys like me who were inspired to play this music by the likes of Monroe, The Stanley's, Larry Sparks and so many of the earlier promoters can be happy to know we saw them in some ways "at their zenith". I suppose that is an arguable point but, without the root, there is no grass.
I have many fond memories of seeing and meeting some of the greats who are no longer with us and feel sorry for those who have a fondness for the music and weren't so lucky. Listen to some Reno and Smiley, find the old videos with Ronnie at what looks like ten. Try to find the early performers, not a great amount of film out there but, I have said this a hundred times if I've said it once:
It's pretty hard to know where you're going if, you don't know where you've been.

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DavidKOS

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## crisscross

> It's pretty hard to know where you're going if, you don't know where you've been.


I guess that applies to any genre.
Take for example blues: You should know Lightnin' Hopkins, B.B. King, then you can move on to SRV or Joe Bonamassa.
Or Jazz guitar: Know your Charlie Christian and Django before moving on to John Scofield or Pat Metheney.
Or Hard&Heavy: the roots are Black Sabbath, Led Zep, Deep Purple, nowadays it's...(fill in your own names, I don't know)

What would be interesting for me is the following question: are there any songs, that by themselves define the genre bluegrass?
Not so much by who played them in a specific way, but rather by the way they are composed? Are there any specific songwriting characteristics you only find in BG?

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## poymando

If I had to define bluegrass for a complete newcomer, I'd play them Earl Taylor and Jim McCall's LP, Blue Grass Favorites. 
There it is!

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## T.D.Nydn

"first generation " bluegrass,is that what you kids are calling it now? Folks,,that is bluegrass..Monroe on mandolin and Scruggs on banjo,,but don't forget,people like doc Watson and Norman Blake did a lot for bluegrass guitar....

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## Bernie Daniel

> 1. Uncle Pen
> 2. Muleskinner Blues
> 3. I saw the Light
> 4. Shady Grove
> 5. Kentucky Mandolin
> 6. Feasting Tonight
> ...


I think your picks are good  --- everyone has a different answer though I'd guess;

1.  Uncle Pen (of course it is the story of why Bill created bluegrass),
2.  Foggy Mountain Breakdown (maybe the tune most associated with the sound of bluegrass?),
3.  I hear a voice calling (aka  "A voice from on high", this IS the "high lonesome" sound);
4.  Rawhide (Bill Monroe's most famous tune?),
5.  Blue Moon of Kentucky (connection to Kentucky and also the way Bill  & bluegrass influenced pop music via Elvis);
6.  Sunny side of the Mountain (Jimmy Martin took bluegrass beyond its first boundaries).

And there you have it.  :Smile:

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DavidKOS

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## Seattle

I need Salty Dog Blues to be included... :Smile: 

I can't even begin to comment on the Rock and Roll choices listed earlier!  :Smile:

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## Mandoplumb

> Didn't read the whole thread, but to me as an outsider, BG seems more a certain way of playing and arranging music, than a genre known for its special features in composing music. You can arrange pretty much any tune as a BGtune as long as it isn't full of sophisticated jazz chords. Give it a 5string banjo played scruggs style, a mandolin doing chop chords, a flatpicked guitar, a fiddle and it soon turns into BG.
> Take the same tune, add some drums and an electric guitar played through a Marshall stack and it becomes rock.
> Play it on a flamenco guitar with lots of rasguados and golpes and it becomes flamenco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsbGXUdse8


Bluegrass is a certain way of playing but isn't that what all genres are. A certain beat or timing,a certain complexity,a certain general chord usage, a certain list of instruments, all a way of playing. Any song can be any genre if the certainties are considered. Most music is a combination of several genres and those of us who prefer the pure strand are called stick-in-the-muds. Yes music evolves but when you lose the "certainties" you have changed the genre whatever that genre.

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## Bernie Daniel

> I need Salty Dog Blues to be included...
> 
> I can't even begin to comment on the Rock and Roll choices listed earlier!


OTOH:   "Salty Dog Blues" is an early 1900's folk song in the public domain and it has been recorded by blues, jazz, country music, bluegrass groups and other styles. The oldest recordings of the song credit Papa Charlie Jackson, who adapted the song directly from the African-American traditional for Broadway in 1924 --- less socially acceptable versions of the song have been around long before that."  (that is a paraphrase of another person's description of the song). :Mandosmiley:

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## Timbofood

"First generation" just fell under my hands while writing, but, I think that is fairly accurate. Thanks for calling me a kid, BTW.  :Wink: 
Not shorting "Doc" or Norman Blake by any means.  By your statement, anything other than the line up you offer is "not" bluegrass?
I agree with the evolution of a genre, it will always be in a state of change. There will be those who, myself included, will feel the desire to maintain the sound and feel of the "Masters" but, I'm no Bill Monroe and cannot fully echo his style. I can share the idea but not note for note, I know there are pickers out there who have put the time in to do that, Bravo! It's just not me. I have moments when things do sound very "Monroe-esque" and they make me quite pleased.
I see the genre still being help to a pretty high standard, there are always going to be bands to "push the envelope" and there's nothing wrong with that. When someone asks me "What is Bluegrass" I can only tell them to listen to Bill, Lester, Earl, etc.
Then they come back and ask "What about (insert "new" band here) ?" I tell them what I think. And, I think there are a lot of new bands, not all so new anymore, that have developed a newer, slicker sound but, if you listen carefully, several still tip their hat to the pioneers. Sometimes it's a little buried but, some really do remember where they came from.

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## Scott Tichenor

The need to boil down an entire genre of music down to a few songs is an invention of convenience for the publishing industry looking to generate comments. See how well it works? Not interested.

How many different answers are there?
As many as the number of people that feel the need to respond.

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DavidKOS, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

Timbofood

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## DavidKOS

> The need to boil down an entire genre of music down to a few songs is an invention of convenience for the publishing industry looking to generate comments.


Boiling down music to easily marketable genres with catchy names is one of the music industry's other tricks.

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Bernie Daniel, 

David Lewis

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## T.D.Nydn

I'm not saying at all that the six choices I made are "it" and anything else ain't bluegrass.what I'm saying is the six tunes I choose might define bluegrass.i picked a definitive mandolin tune,banjo tune,fiddle tune and guitar tune,with two traditional vocal tunes.most people seem to agree that rawhide and foggy mountain breakdown make the list."first generation" is a good term to use,but I don't listen to that much anymore anyway,I think if you started bluegrass five years ago your choices might be different than if you started fifty years ago.i keep a open musical,mind,,I love buckethead,,,the young musicians today probably most play better ,and many of them really amaze me how really good they are...

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## Timbofood

TD, I think we're pretty much in the same camp, I keep an open mind and am really impressed with the caliber of some of todays pickers. Not all my brand but, technically, pretty amazing.
One band I am always impressed with is "Special Consencus"! Every time I see them I can see they "get" the value of knowing the history. Greg has surrounded himself with talent and, some of the less well known Flatt and Scruggs tunes that Jason used to sing were just so much fun to listen to.

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T.D.Nydn

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## 9lbShellhamer

To the OP- THANK you for posting a fun way to simply think about 6 songs that could best define a genre. 

To the few who posted their ideas of 6 songs that could possibly define the genre. Thank you.

This could have been a fun thread were it not for all the folks in need of smile or a hug who hopefully feel better now after grumbling about whatever they were grumbling about to feel better or heard...

I really enjoyed some of the mentions,

I don't know if I would have thought of Uncle Pen, but it sure belongs in the list! I am a little surprised there aren't more gospel numbers. I think its a big part of the genre, so I might toss in model church by the Bluegrass Album Band.

Hard Hearted by Jim and Jesse.

Hmmnnn... I feel like Sam Bush should be in here somewhere but uh oh... now I see the trouble. hahaha. Bluegrass...are we allowing newgrass? Hahahaha

Sittin on top of the world- Lonesome River Band

Pretty Polly Ralph Stanley- (Gotta have a murder ballad, right?! )

Blue Night- Hot Rize

This list needs refinement still.....

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Bernie Daniel, 

Mark Wilson

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## Mark Wilson

Yeah but... part of the fun in a thread like this *is* folks fussing over it

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9lbShellhamer, 

Timbofood

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## 9lbShellhamer

> Yeah but... part of the fun in a thread like this *is* folks fussing over it



True. 

In coming up with my own list I was worried... wait, that's newgrass! Wait! That's Mashgrass! Wait! Then I realized it's all Bluegrass.  :Mandosmiley:  Now I'm just a product of the machine.  :Wink:

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## brunello97

> The need to boil down an entire genre of music down to a few songs is an invention of convenience for the publishing industry looking to generate comments. See how well it works? Not interested.
> 
> How many different answers are there?
> As many as the number of people that feel the need to respond.


That's what I know, Scott.  I don't even really like bluegrass, but have found this conversation, however Troll-isch, to be enlightening about some key tunes to listen to.  Besides the obvious chestnuts.

Mick

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## Bernie Daniel

> The need to boil down an entire genre of music down to a few songs is an invention of convenience for the publishing industry looking to generate comments. See how well it works? Not interested.
> 
> How many different answers are there?
> As many as the number of people that feel the need to respond.


As many answers as there are respondents?  Certainly!   In fact, that is proven in this thread.  But looking at all of the answers tells me a little bit about how other followers of bluegrass think about it  -- and that is of interest to me.   

I also see what you mean about "the convenience of the publishing industry".  But that is a good thing right?

I'm not a professional (or even a non-professional) in any aspect of the music business but don't you all want the publishing industry to sell more records and promote the music so as to generate money and publicity for the musicians?

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## DataNick

crisscross,

Before Tony Rice and his "BlueGrass All-Stars" did John-Hardy, Monroe recorded his almost 20 years earlier. What's interesting to me about Bill Monroe's versions of folk and fiddle tunes is that his arrangement in his mind was the _"right way"_ to play the tune. His perceptions about _"right & wrong"_ re: song renditions has to do with how he first heard songs performed and remebered songs performed by 19th century musicians...

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Bernie Daniel, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

T.D.Nydn

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## T.D.Nydn

That is excellent without a doubt as you can get...what drew me to bluegrass growing up was the fact that it was "the " fast instrumental music of the day,.you couldn't find that anywhere else ..

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DataNick

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## Timbofood

I'd be hard pressed not to call that a fairly good example of what bluegrass is!

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DataNick

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## crisscross

What I wanted to demonstrate using "John Hardy" as an example is, that as far as I can see, BG is more a way of playing a certain song, than the choice of the song in itself. 
So maybe the right starting question would have been "6 songs x in the version of musician y ?"

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## DataNick

> What I wanted to demonstrate using "John Hardy" as an example is, that as far as I can see, BG is more a way of playing a certain song, than the choice of the song in itself...


Roger That!

I just wanted to show another "interpretation", and yes more of a way of playing a certain song...Tony sings the lyrics, Monroe didn't for example...it's all good Brotha!

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## John O'Brien

People tend to be very passionate about the tradition, but to a larger extent, about the music. 

It's like wine. The classic notion of a fine aged wine is desirable and valuable, and to those "in the know" usually considered superior. Some people find a great deal of enjoyment from a bottle of wine under $10. It's personal, and makes the individual happy. That's the thing with music, it's consumed by individuals, some more passionate or experienced than others, but it's essentially based on a personal relationship with music. That's a great thing, that's why people are fans of one artist but not another, no reason to be nasty or elitist.

Each of us has an interesting and unique journey that got us to this 8 year old thread. Most of you have the benefit of a several decade head start over me, but I'm putting in the time and effort! 

My journey started with hearing Bela Fleck's _Katmandu_ coming out of a speaker in a bush at Disney's Fort Wilderness in 2010. That was my gateway drug! From there it was Punch Brothers, then Old and In The Way, then I discovered Bill Monroe.... five years of research, collecting, listening, and now I'm a year and a half into my mando playing (on my third mandolin!), and even started a podcast! I dove right in!

I look at this thread like this... if a friend asked me to make them a mixtape of how or why I love bluegrass, what would I put on it?

I would put together a playlist that looks like this:
1. Uncle Pen - Bill Monroe
2. Fox On The Run - Country Gentlemen
3. Nellie Kane - Hot Rize
4. Blue Ridge Cabin Home - Flatt & Scruggs
5. Pig In A Pen - Old & In The Way
6. Rye Whiskey - Punch Brothers 

Number 6 starts the next thread... how did the mandolin choose you?

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9lbShellhamer, 

DataNick, 

Timbofood

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## ralph johansson

> crisscross,
> 
> Before Tony Rice and his "BlueGrass All-Stars" did John-Hardy, Monroe recorded his almost 20 years earlier. What's interesting to me about Bill Monroe's versions of folk and fiddle tunes is that his arrangement in his mind was the _"right way"_ to play the tune. His perceptions about _"right & wrong"_ re: song renditions has to do with how he first heard songs performed and remebered songs performed by 19th century musicians...


This tune was brought to the session by the banjo player, Tony Ellis, so it's not really Monroe´s  version.  It was the first time in 20 years that Monroe recorded a traditional instrumental (a song without its lyrics, really), and the first time ever that he recorded a banjo instrumental. Note that the original versions of Bluegrass Breakdown and Pine County featured the mandolin.

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DataNick

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## Seattle

I think we can all agree that this should be on any bluegrass list... :Smile:

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Mark Wilson, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

Seattle, that's a great example of a band that proves my theory
"You have to know where you've been to know where you are going."
Excellent example of how "genre" can be translated and incorporated into what may not have started out as a "bluegrass" piece.
"Lovers concerto" done by Doyle Lawson is another. It's not "making it bluegrass" it's an interpretation. It's growth with roots in the "right" place.
That was really fun, thanks for sharing!

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## dwc

Blue Moon of Kentucky
Muleskinner Blues
Foggy Mountain Breakdown
Molly and Tenbrooks
Rocky Top
Drifting too Far From the Shore

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DavidKOS

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## WW52

Perhaps it would be easier to list the six bluegrass songs you never want to hear again. Ever.

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Timbofood

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## David Lewis

> Perhaps it would be easier to list the six bluegrass songs you never want to hear again. Ever.


Well. Yes. 

But plowing on ....


1) uncle pen. 

2) mule skinner blues. This is, by some reckonings the first song that Monroe plays in a bluegrass style. 

3) my home ain't in the hall of fame : j d Crowe 

4) foggy mountain breakdown. I don't care that you've all heard it 250099999 and 6 times. Why do you think you have?

5) duelling banjos. See commentary on 4) above. 

6) can't stop now. New grass revival. 

Missing Duffey, Kraus, Sierra hull, mccoury. Thile. 

It can't be done. 

Let's try rock and roll. 

1) heartbreak hotel
2) johnny b Goode 
3) twist and shout (the Beatles)
4) honky tonk woman 
5) my generation
6) ... (Queen, Bowie, led Zeppelin, little Richard,....)

Now. Can't be done either. 

But it sure is fun trying.

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## jaycat

> . . . Let's try rock and roll. . . . 
> 
> 3) twist and shout (the Beatles)


They did write some of their own songs, you know!

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Timbofood

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## Timbofood

WW52, that is just......

 :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Grin: 
Tears are running down my face! Now, there's a big pile just waiting for a match! I smell kerosene somewhere...
I think I will just keep that to myself! Oh my goodness, that would be hilarious!

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WW52

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## WW52

Well, that's a relief. I was a little concerned my last post might've got me banned from the Café.

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Timbofood

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## David Lewis

> They did write some of their own songs, you know!


I'd heard something of the kind. Ringo apparently.  :Wink: 

But seriously, 'twist and shout' is where rock music began as opposed to rock and roll. 

Which makes all my rock songs invalid ...

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## Mandoplumb

> What I wanted to demonstrate using "John Hardy" as an example is, that as far as I can see, BG is more a way of playing a certain song, than the choice of the song in itself. 
> So maybe the right starting question would have been "6 songs x in the version of musician y ?"


Any genre is the way you play the song. If you play Foggy Mountain Breakdown in an orchestra is would not be bluegrass but that don't mean it wasn't when Earl played it. Is Jazz not a genre because songs written by Jazz artist were later done by Don Reno and Hank Williams? No genre can own a song, it is what it is because of the waybit is played.

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## David Lewis

6 players who define bluegrass?

Monroe 
Scruggs
Del mccoury 
J d Crowe 
Sam bush
Alison Kraus 


That shouldn't cause any argument.

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## mikeyes

I think everyone means tunes and songs, not just songs - a pet peeve, so ignore.

A non-scientific survey of my eleven feet of vinyl bluegrass records (that ends with NGR) shows that  the vast majority of cuts are songs of various types including a significant gospel presence which reflects the tastes of the bands.   Tunes are what brings fans in and songs are the base of the music.   The base is often hard to grasp for someone not brought up in the culture, but tunes are fun and universally accepted.

I guess my point is that if you want to introduce bluegrass to others, have them listen to tunes first then songs.  Since everyone loves the banjo, Earl Scruggs comes to mind, then Lester Flatt, then maybe Bill Monroe, etc.

In the book mentioned above, the question was not how do you introduce someone to rock and roll, but what captures the essence of R&R.  These are two different questions and if I was to answer the actual question, I'd use WSM as the model.  Bill Monroe was an innovator and a musical genius from which a lot of things sprung (he is in the rock and roll hall of fame, after all) including those genera that we fight over as to whether or not they are bluegrass.  He innovated right up to the last days of his life and set one of the stylistic paths that hallmarks bluegrass forms.  His is not the only one and he did not promote the music very well in the beginning (that was Louise Scruggs) but he is the person who set the mark.  Hence Bill Monroe captures the essence if not all the forms.

When I learned about BG, I was 13 years old listening to the Flatt and Scruggs in Nashville (1957.)  I didn't even know who Bill Monroe was until I was 15 or so when I heard him on the Opry.  Even then I figured that he was just another F&S clone. i started to appreciate him in high school and followed him in college whenever I could.  Things have changed quite a bit since then, but even bands like the Punch Brothers pay homage to WSM which is telling if you are looking for an essence.  

So if you want to introduce someone to bluegrass, figure out what they like and show it to them be it Del or Thile.  If you want to feel the music and gain insight, listen to Bill Monroe.  The latter will take a lot of time for a beginner to get to your stage, but will bring a lot of satisfaction when the essence is finally grasped.

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## AlanN

> I think everyone means tunes and songs, not just songs - a pet peeve, so ignore.
> 
> A non-scientific survey of my eleven feet of vinyl bluegrass records (that ends with NGR) shows that  the vast majority of cuts are songs of various types including a significant gospel presence which reflects the tastes of the bands.   Tunes are what brings fans in and songs are the base of the music.   The base is often hard to grasp for someone not brought up in the culture, but tunes are fun and universally accepted.
> 
> I guess my point is that if you want to introduce bluegrass to others, have them listen to tunes first then songs.  Since everyone loves the banjo, Earl Scruggs comes to mind, then Lester Flatt, then maybe Bill Monroe, etc.
> 
> In the book mentioned above, the question was not how do you introduce someone to rock and roll, but what captures the essence of R&R.  These are two different questions and if I was to answer the actual question, I'd use WSM as the model.  Bill Monroe was an innovator and a musial genius from which a lot of things sprung (he is in the rock and roll hall of fame, after all) including those genera that we fight over as to whether or not they are bluegrass.  He innovated right up to the last days of his life and set one of the stylistic paths that hallmarks bluegrass forms.  His is not the only one and he did not promote the music very well in the beginning (that was Louise Scruggs) but he is the person who set the mark.  Hence Bill Monroe captures the essence if not all the forms.
> 
> When I learned about BG, I was 13 years old listening to the Flatt and Scruggs in Nashville (1957.)  I didn't even know who Bill Monroe was until I was 15 or so when I heard him on the Opry.  Even then I figured that he was just another F&S clone. i started to appreciate him in high school and followed him in college whenever I could.  Things have changed quite a bit since then, but even bands like the Punch Brothers pay homage to WSM which is telling if you are looking for an essence.  
> ...


Well-said, Mike. Those who know, know.

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## Mandoplumb

If you want hardcore bluegrass listen to Stanley brothers. Some said they are more old time but I think when Carter was alive they were very much bluegrass, especially late 50s early 60s.

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## FLATROCK HILL

> When I learned about BG, I was 13 years old listening to the Flatt and Scruggs in Nashville (1957.)  I didn't even know who Bill Monroe was until I was 15 or so when I heard him on the Opry.  Even then I figured that he was just another F&S clone.


That is an interesting recollection of your thoughts from 'back in the day'. I'll bet I find it more amusing than Bill would have though.  :Smile:

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## mikeyes

Flatt and Scruggs had a sponsored half hour on the Opry and a syndicated TV show at the time while WSM was playing backwater towns in the South.  He was at the level of the Skillet Lickers compared to F&S from a popularity standpoint.  Once I learned more about him, my mind changed but I had to learn from local musicians first.  One of my brother's friends parents owned a drive in movie whose manager had played with Monroe (I wish I could remember his name) and I went over to his house an learned a lot about Monroe including how hard it was to work with him.  I was 17 at the time.

I knew a lot more about Flatt and Scruggs because my dad was friends with the Williams brothers who owned Martha White Mills.  They used to get me and my family tickets to the Opry and back stage passes to meet with them.  It ws quite a journey.

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FLATROCK HILL, 

Timbofood

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