# Instruments and Equipment > Equipment >  Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

## bluesean

Dear Pickers,
New member here and I've got a possibly unique question for you.  I'm a professional bassist down in here in Austin and have gotten some gigs lately where I've needed to double on mandolin.  I've squeaked by but have also been bitten by the mando bug...I'd like to learn to play it well.  So, has anyone ever heard of stringing a mandolin so that you can play it in fourths, like my bass and my guitar are tuned?  I imagine that once you had an idea of which gage of string would work you could improvise using guitar strings as mandolin strings, bazouki, lute...any ideas would be very welcome and gratefully received.
Thanks,
BlueSean

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## Steve Ostrander

You would have to transpose all mandolin tabs and figure out your own chord charts. Sounds like a lot of hassle to me. Why not just learn to play it as strung in fifths?  I played gtr and bass before mando and it really wasn't that difficult to crossover to mando.

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## mandroid

the merits of 5th tuning is having so much shorter scale you have a 2 octave range with out shifting up the neck.

it just lays in your hand right .

and [if you read standard notation] you can borrow scores from the Violin section to play.

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## Mark Levesque

Studio guitar ace Tommy Tedesco used a guitar tuning (EBGD) for mandolin with the string gauges .009, .012, .017 and .024.   I think you could do .11,.13,.18 and .24 for a slightly thicker sound.
Here's a page from Tedesco's book where he shows his tunings.

However, it's much easier to finger the mandolin in mandolin tuning. Also, the chords in mandolin tuning sound great and the low G string is necessary for the percussive flavor of the mandolin sound............I'm sure you will eventually want to learn mandolin tuning

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## Mike Bunting

That would be correct, except that most of us are used to naming strings from low to high, i.e. DGBE.  :Smile:

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## Mark Levesque

Actually, I originally wrote the post DGBE, but then I realized that I had listed the gauges from high to low. 

You're right Mike, I should have changed the gauge order instead of the string order......................geez, this stuff is complicated!

What order do you list your gauges if someone should ask you?? :Disbelief:

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## bobby bill

Play in front of a mirror and just make sure the guy in the mirror is playing the notes you would play on the bass.

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## Coffeecup

It seems to me that doing that would limit what you could do with the mandolin without giving any great advantage in reduced learning.  At first glance it might seem that with the same tuning you just simply switch straight across, but with the mandolin one finger covers two frets (because they're narrow) so well known tunes or licks have to be re-thought.
In the band situation, what function will the mando be serving?  I don't imagine it would mirror what you do now with the bass so you will be learning new parts anyway.  I would think that it would be better to stay with the mando's standard tuning and work the strengths in that area.  The fifths tuning seems to give a more logical layout on the fretboard so with your prior knowledge you'll pick it up in no time.

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## bluesean

Thanks, Mark, for your informative reply!  I imagine you're right about eventually wanting to learn the traditional tuning but, this way, I could literally hit the ground runnin' (or pickin', as it may be).  
Again, thanks!
BlueSean

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## ...and Master of None

Hmmm, a mandolin in fourths?  Isn't that a Ukelele?  :Laughing: 

Seriously, I play guitar and bass and it was the fact that mandos are tuned in fifths that attracted me to them (after experimenting with CGDACE tuning on guitar).

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## Mike Bunting

> Actually, I originally wrote the post DGBE, but then I realized that I had listed the gauges from high to low. 
> 
> You're right Mike, I should have changed the gauge order instead of the string order......................geez, this stuff is complicated!
> 
> What order do you list your gauges if someone should ask you??


Just a small point, I guess, no big deal. If someone asked me, no one has sofar, I suppose I'd just say heavy or medium, maybe I'd say that it's a trade secret!   :Grin:

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## rico mando

:Confused: This does not make sense usually its someone having to fill in on bass.must be nice to live some where there are so many bass players that they get stuck playing mando or guitar.

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## Jim MacDaniel

Another option is the Bandurria, which has a slightly shorter scale than the mandolin, but has 6 courses of strings tuned in fourths -- that way you would have a mandolin-like sound in your familiar fourths tuning without sacrificing a decent range in first position.

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## mandroid

EADG  pitches what you want ? or tuned G C F Bb ascending 4ths from G [top space on the Bass Clef]

If EADG which E you want to have as your Low pitch ? lowest line on the treble clef, or lower,
 3rd space on the bass clef?

the latter will be tough to pull off with a  short 14" scale,  the former
 maybe  modeled after an extra light gage super slinky guitar set  where  G isn't wound on those 
sets and a wound .O24 for the E.
 since you will be  asking them to start at a pitch that is like 2nd fret on the existing  mandolin D string , typically a wound .024" or a .026".the higher strings would be a bit larger a couple thousandths ,as the pitch difference is 2 steps less , but the other 3 courses  would be plain steel.

maybe a candidate for an M6  gibson's half scale guitar with an A shaped body, and it's gold tone made replica.

nah, Get a real Mandolin and take a few lessons , If Chris Hillman Can do well on both mandolin or Bass ,
 so can you. 
 :Popcorn:

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## Phil Goodson

You could tune in fourths, ............... but it would just be so wrong.  The muses and demons would be after you in no time!  :Crying:  :Wink:  :Whistling:   (It would be very sad)

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## Cheryl Watson

If you really want to play the mandolin well, I'd say tune it to standard mandolin tuning.  That Tommy Tedesco tuning is cool and depending on the style of music you are playing, it could sound really good.  You could use that for now for gigs to get by and meanwhile, back at the ranch, learn how to play it in standard tuning.

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## axeman2000x

I have played the guitar for 30+ years.  Then about three months ago I got a chance to play mandolin with an old timey acoustic band with a weekly pub gig.  With only a week before my first performance, I got a friend's mandolin and explored tunings that would allow me to sound like a mandolin and still be able to step in and start gigging right away.  This is the tuning that I found, and it works great.  From low to high: A (one step above standard tuning), D (standard), G (one step lower than standard), C (two steps below standard). 

I use standard medium gauge strings and it works great.  Any lick you could play on bass you could play in this tuning, you just have to remember that the A string is the low string.

This is a great tuning for playing in the keys of G, C, Am, or D (two finger open chords for all these). 

I think it is also easier on the instrument (less pressure on the top and neck), because the E and A strings are really really taut in standard tuning.

I did have to figure out the chords on my own.  But it was no big deal. 

I have been playing weekly for almost three months...and may be the only mandolinist with a regular paid gig in central PA.

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## i-vibe

stringing in fourths......nah, i like to do it all in one setting. badoom-crash. i'll be here all week, ladies and germs.

welcome to the board and mando playing, bluesean.

i immediately thought of t tedesco too having read his old articles in Guitar Player of yesteryear. he tuned EVERYTHING in 'guitar tuning' so he could sightread anything that was put in front of him on the gazillion studio dates he worked.

i suspect 90% of that stuff involved him playing some melody line and not much if any chording.

as others have said it's not that hard to get your head around the different tuning and there are huge benefits to be gained from it.

count me as another who went from bass, and gtr playing over to mando. 

of course if ya try the 4ths thing and like it....and no animals or small chillens are getting hurt.......

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## Gerard Dick

WHY would you? Fifths make so much more sense.

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## mandroid

They are tuned in 4ths , descending 4ths ,   that is  is the inverse of Ascending 5ths.. 

In other words, your circle of 5ths is a circle of 4ths if you go the other way around.

OK in reality the note on the 5th fret is an octave higher than the open lower string .

but GDAE and EADG are mirror images 

By the way at the tenor guitar gathering, here, I learned for tenor guitar 
DGBE is 'the Chicago tuning' .. 

Plectrum banjo players that grew up playing the guitar use Chicago tuning too.

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## Ian Rossiter

What about those Goldtone 6-string mandolins??? Perhaps that would solve your problems. Tuned;E,A,D,G,B,E. That way you'd have a dedicated instrument for the gig and you can still woodshed Fifths mandolin in your spare time. 
 Tedesco is one of my Idols btw, I have his books but have you ever seen his Hot Licks video??? Just awesome.

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## i-vibe

what i most remember about T.T. from those articles......he was one funny guy!

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## Mandolin Mick

As a mandolinist, bassist, & classical guitarist, my question is ... WHY???  :Disbelief: 

Being tuned in 5ths makes the mandolin a superior instrument to the guitar and bass for learning, improvising, tuning ,etc.

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## Phil Vinyard

Just to add to the confusion: I've been pressed into service playing a bass before and quietly tuned it in fifths. Take the G up to an A, leave the D alone, take the A down to a G, and the E down to a C. Maybe you should just completely convert to the world of fifths...

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## John Kasley

4ths and 5ths are both perfect intervals, so I guess whichever suits your fancy is ok. I'll stick with 5ths.

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## EdSherry

Others have already mentioned this, but (a) I doubt you are going to be playing bass-type lines on a mando [though you never know!], and (b) the one-finger-per-fret approach to guitar [not to mention the traditional approach to bass] simply doesn't work on the much-shorter-scale mandolin.  

Tommy Tedesco's "tune everything like the TOP strings of a guitar" framework made a lot of sense for him, given that (a) he was a monster sight-reader and (b) the studio producers typically wanted "a mandolin sound" [or "a balalaika sound"] and were less concerned with "authenticity" to traditional playing styles.

Personally, I'd go with standard fifths-tuning and just learn to live with the differences.

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## Jim Broyles

> Just to add to the confusion: I've been pressed into service playing a bass before and quietly tuned it in fifths. Take the G up to an A, leave the D alone, take the A down to a G, and the E down to a C. Maybe you should just completely convert to the world of fifths...


There is one good reason why, even in the 5ths world , basses are tuned in 4ths - the stretches are too big for the average player's hands. I have fairly long fingers - 9-1/2" span, and I play electric bass more than I play mandolin. I have no problem adjusting to bass after playing mandolin and I see no reason to tune a bass in 5ths.

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## axeman2000x

For all the people asking "why tune in fourths?" The answer is simple, so an accomplished guitarist can gig on mandolin without spending a year or so learning to play in fifths.  It is a practical matter.  I started playing mandolin in June 2010 and I have already played over 10 paying gigs on mandolin full time.  I don't think I ever will have to learn to play in traditional violin tuning, because I can do everything I want to right now with it tuned in fourths.   (I suppose if I ever wanted to take up classical mandolin....but then I would have to learn to sight read, and I don't think that is ever going to happen.) 

Voicing of chords is something to keep in mind, however.  Standard tuning makes tight chord voicings difficult, so mandolin chords traditionally sound different from Uke chords.  I try to avoid tight chord voicings so I sound more traditional.  For that matter, I think chords played in the Chicago tuning described above are not likely to sound like a traditional mandolin...while my ADGC tuning does sound pretty traditional...as long as I try to avoid really close chord voicings typical of a guitar or uke.

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## i-vibe

don't let the nay sayers get ya down. there's always gonna be some stick in the mud tellin' ya about 'the right way to do it'

if it's working for you ...there ya go.




> There is one good reason why, even in the 5ths world , basses are tuned in 4ths - the stretches are too big for the average player's hands. I have fairly long fingers - 9-1/2" span, and I play electric bass more than I play mandolin. I have no problem adjusting to bass after playing mandolin and I see no reason to tune a bass in 5ths.


sure glad no one ever told Red Mitchell to tune his bass in 4ths. he has to be one of the all time greats. great accompaniest, he could solo like a horn, and whatta sound. all tuned in 5ths.

thought not as common as standard 4ths tuning, there are bassists that use and see benefits of playing out of this tuning. 

i forget which one, but one of the big string companies has a specific set for double bass players who tune in 5ths.

goes to show...there's usually more than one way of doing something.

full disclosure...a while back i tried to get my little brain around 5ths tuning for bass.....and couldn't.

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## Hal Loflin

> They are tuned in 4ths , descending 4ths ,   that is  is the inverse of Ascending 5ths.. 
> 
> In other words, your circle of 5ths is a circle of 4ths if you go the other way around.
> 
> OK in reality the note on the 5th fret is an octave higher than the open lower string .
> 
> but GDAE and EADG are mirror images


So...If he got a left handed mandolin and flipped it over and played it right handed would he not be playing a mini bass with double course strings? Unless of course he plays left handed then he would need a right handed mandolin flipped over...

Just saying. I have always found it very easy, in my flipped out mind, to approach the mandolin as a upside down guitar (OH NO...BLASPHEMY...I WILL BE BANNED FOR SURE!). It just came easy to me since I had played acoustic guitar for 20+ years. In no time I was playing two and three finger chords when I first started by using upside down guitar chords.

But then I always felt that guitar tab was upside down too.

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## Mandolin Mick

axeman2000x-

You are at liberty to do whatever you want.  :Smile: 

But, as an accomplished guitarist and bassist in my own right I can tell you ... It doesn't take a year for an accomplished musician to learn to play in 5ths, and learning to sight read doesn't take long either. Both will make you a better musician. 

I highly recommend learning to do both. If you are a natural musician either will only take you days to get a working knowledge; if that long.

Good luck!!!

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## Jim Broyles

> I highly recommend learning to do both. If you are a natural musician either will only take you days to get a working knowledge; if that long.


+1. It took me about an hour to get used to 5ths tuning after playing guitar for over 45 years.

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## Mandolin Mick

Jim-

Thanx for seconding the motion! :Wink:

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## axeman2000x

So you are saying that within one hour you were ready to start gigging and soloing on nearly every song for 2+ hours??  That is what I did after a week working out my nonstandard tuning.  

The OP was someone like me looking for help because he has a gig playing mandolin and wants to do a good job at it.  From what I gather, most of the advice he has gotten here is to not do it unless he can do it in traditional violin tuning....as if he would be violating some natural law or something.  My posting tells him how I have done it...I play mandolin exclusively in my acoustic trio and am the primary soloist.  No one would ever guess that I am less than three months in on the mandolin.  I am not a home hobbyist who thinks that learning a few two finger chords makes one a skilled gig-ready musician.

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## man dough nollij

Wouldn't a mandolin tuned in fourths be a mandukulele? Or would it be a ukulelin?

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## axeman2000x

Ukes are not normally tuned in fourths: http://www.ezfolk.com/uke/Tuning/tuning.html.  That said, you can do cool things on a uke that you can't do on a mandolin, such as simulate a clawhammer banjo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ilDBzjS-Q

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## Mandolin Mick

I never said that in 1 hour you would be ready for 2+ hours of gigging. I understand why you did what you did *then*.

I said that if you do it *now*, you'll be a better musician for it. You may be fooling others, but there's a reason things are done the way they've been done for hundreds of years by accomplished mandolinists. 

I've been around the block, play 9 instruments, and played professionally as a mandolinist, classical guitarist and rock bassist for over 35 years. I've played with guys who are open to new things and guys who weren't ...

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## i-vibe

> There is one good reason why, even in the 5ths world , basses are tuned in 4ths - the stretches are too big for the average player's hands. I have fairly long fingers - 9-1/2" span, and I play electric bass more than I play mandolin. I have no problem adjusting to bass after playing mandolin and I see no reason to tune a bass in 5ths.


fair enough...though YOU might not see any reason for it....others will. 

these are the fifths tuning bass strings i was thinking of earlier....made by Thomastik. and apparantly they're made in three different gauges.


http://www.lemurmusic.com/Red-Mitche.../products/320/





In Orchestra Tuning (G-D-A-E) 

Light Tension - Weich is the German Word for soft and that's a good description for these lighter gauge strings. There is less mass on a weich gauge Spirocore so it's a bit easier in the hand, without sacrificing any noticeable volume or sustain. Players who want less tension for the top plate of their bass choose a lighter tension string. This one delivers all the Spirocore punch you would expect.

Medium Tension - Red Wraps is our pet name for these Spirocores. They are the benchmark for a jazz string in so many ways: superior volume and sustain, good growl and a true bass fundamental. Give your mediums a week or so to 'settle down' for the most long term durability of any steel string we know of. 

Heavy Tension - Stark is the German word for heavy and these strings are much thicker and heavier than other makers' heavy gauge strings. Use them when you really need more volume - there is enough mass on a Spirocore Stark to drive a truck. Your hands need to be stronger to play them, too. That being said, Spirocore Stark delivers a focused pitch every time.

Fractional sizes - Almost all the Spirocores we sell are considered full size (4/4). We do that to fit the greatest number of string playing lengths. We also stock Spirocore 3/4 size in Medium & Weich Tension, as well as Spirocore 1/2 size in Medium, and Spirocore 1/4 size in Medium.

Extra Strings - Lemur stocks all the extension fourth strings, High C and Low B 5th strings in each Gauge.

In Solo Tuning (A-E-B-F#)

Solo Tuning Strings - The Thinnest Gauge steel strings are made to be tuned up a step from Orchestra Tuning sets. Because most musicians using solo tuning are arco players, they prefer Belcanto Solo, which was designed from day-one to be a bowed string. Still, if you want that Spirocore punch and sustain in the thinnest possible gauge, then this solo tuning string may be right for your bass/your play.

Fractional Sizes - We stock the true 3/4 size solo tuning Spirocore as well as a 1/2 size solo tuning set.

Extra Strings - Thomastik Makes and Lemur Stocks an Extension 4th string (F#) as well as a Low 5th string tuning to C#. We consider both of these strings to be rare birds (not made by many manufacturers) and so we USE THEM FREQUENTLY since they have great center of pitch, remain focused, and are readily available. 

In Fifths Tuning (A-D-G-C)

In this tuning, the double bass is tuned like a cello but an octave lower (A-D-G-C.) Fifths tuning was once a very common double bass tuning but has been supplanted by standard tuning in fourths. However, Fifths tuning has been re-adopted by a handful of bassists, most notably (the late) Red Mitchell who lends his name to this particular Spirocore sets. Other players who tune in 5ths include Joel Quarrington, Dennis Mazzuso, Silvio Dalla Torre, Paul Unger,and Larry Holloway. 5ths tuning is definitely gaining in popularity. 

The advantages of fifths tuning seem to be that:

The bass achieves better intonation with the rest of the string section due to the uniform tuning with upper strings and cello. 
It's a very good method of reaching a low C, without an extension or a fifth string. 
Jazz players find it easier to reach the major tenth which can be played easily without a position shift. 
Increased resonance, volume and quality of sound. 
The strings have more common overtones, causing the strings to vibrate sympathetically. 
For years we had to mix-n-match from a variety of manufacturers to make good 5ths Tuning Sets. Now we have the Red Mitchell 5ths Tuning Set in both Medium and Weich Gauges. Yipes! Chosing bass strings is getting easier, thanks to Thomastik-Infeld.

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## i-vibe

...and doesn't robert fripp (king crimson gtrst) use some unusual tuning? 

fifths? or maybe fourths all the way across?

yep...there IS more than way to scale a fish.

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## axeman2000x

> I never said that in 1 hour you would be ready for 2+ hours of gigging. I understand why you did what you did *then*.
> 
> I said that if you do it *now*, you'll be a better musician for it. You may be fooling others, but there's a reason things are done the way they've been done for hundreds of years by accomplished mandolinists. 
> 
> I've been around the block, play 9 instruments, and played professionally as a mandolinist, classical guitarist and rock bassist for over 35 years. I've played with guys who are open to new things and guys who weren't ...


Jim was the guy who said he only needed an hour to be up and running on mandolin.  I was responding to him. It isn't always about you Mick.

Regarding being open to new things, I came up with my own tuning!  You are the guy that is saying do it the old fashioned way, the way that made mandolin so vitally popular and loved by the millions (wait...I forgot it really isn't very popular or loved...maybe it is time to innovate?)

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## Mandolin Mick

Thanx for proving my point!!! :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

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## Jim Broyles

No I didn't. I said I was used to 5ths in an hour. I still had to learn the mandolin fretboard and practice until I had some mando chops.  Nowadays, it is instantaneous. I go from mandolin to guitar, mandolin to bass, bass to guitar or mandolin and I do not need time to get my bearings.  You can have your own tuning and if it makes for  happy, go for it. I have no desire to attempt to play the bass in 5ths tuning. I also don't see why there is even contention about this issue. It isn't what usually happens on the Cafe.

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## Jim Broyles

Double post. :Disbelief:

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## axeman2000x

I think you guys got sort of offended that folks like me are taking up the mandolin and making it our own without paying dues and bowing to your sacred traditions.  I am about making music not rules and traditions.  You come off as really narrow-minded when you claim that unless you do it our way you are doing it wrong.  Music is about creativity.

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## Mandolin Mick

This is my last word on this, like Jim said, the Cafe's not about contention.

If you re-read my posts you'd see that I was trying to help you to be a better musician. 

I also knew that you were addressing Jim. I was just clarifying the purpose of why I wrote what I did. I know it's not all about me. What I was doing was reaching out to a fellow musician.

I don't know how old you are, but hopefully you'll become teachable somewhere down the line. 

Good Luck to you!

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## Jim Broyles

You're kidding, right?  You haven't been around here long enough. Did you see one post in this thread telling you that unless you do something a certain way you are doing it wrong? What you are doing wrong is coming on here and acting like you invented creativity and music and telling us that we are wrong if we don't see any reason to embrace your idea.

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## Tom Wright

Man up and tune right. 

Just kidding---if you're actually getting work you should do what works. But if you get a chart done by someone who knows the mando range it might be awkward.

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## axeman2000x

> This is my last word on this, like Jim said, the Cafe's not about contention.
> 
> If you re-read my posts you'd see that I was trying to help you to be a better musician. 
> 
> I also knew that you were addressing Jim. I was just clarifying the purpose of why I wrote what I did. I know it's not all about me. What I was doing was reaching out to a fellow musician.
> 
> I don't know how old you are, but hopefully you'll become teachable somewhere down the line. 
> 
> Good Luck to you!


I understand that you think you are being helpful by telling me that I am "fooling" the audience by playing in nonstandard tuning and really should change what I am doing for the sake of good music and my immortal soul.  Thanks.  I got it.  YOu are really a great guy who just wants to help.  Wow, I feel so guilty cheating the audience the way I have. I am going to cancel my 20+ scheduled  gigs right away!!  Thanks for helping me see the light!!

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## Jim Broyles

Dude. You're protesting too much. Relax. Tune how you want. We're all impressed. :Cool:

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## Jim Broyles

Full disclosure: I didn't read this whole thread until now. I basically responded to Phil Vinyard's post about tuning a bass in 5ths  and suddenly I was in the middle of a spat about music, creativity and rules. Now that I have read the whole thread, I have formed an opinion. A mandolin tuned like a guitar will only sound sort of like a mandolin. The licks are different, the instrument itself will probably sound different, given the different string tensions, and the music will sound like you're playing guitar licks on a mandolin. Might as well put a capo on the 7th fret or so of a 12 string. Do it all you want, if it makes you happy. By the way, I'm an "accomplished guitarist" and A D G C does  not even come close to being intuitive for me. A D F#B would work, then it would be tuned more like the top four strings on a guitar, but straight 4ths? You'd have to be used to playing all your chords and licks on the bottom four strings.

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## MikeEdgerton

Just a few things, I don't care how anybody tunes, and it's better to read more and post less if you're easily offended by people that don't agree with you. It's also good to take a look at the posting guidelines. We take them seriously.

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## axeman2000x

I will attempt to answer some of the issues that have been brought up here:

1. Regarding string tensions: 

The ADGC tuning keeps the strings close to where they would be in standard tuning.  In my opinion, tightening up from G to A on the fourth string gets rid of the flabbiness inherent in the low string (you either know what I am talking about here or you don't, but let's not get into a huge debate about whether the low string tends to sound flabby).  It sounds better tuned to A, in my opinion.  Not flabby at all.

2. Regarding making sense of the tuning from a guitarist's/bassist's point of view:

a) If you have ever played 6 string bass, what you have is the top four strings of a conventionally tuned 6 string bass.  Easy.

b) If you play guitar, it is a little tougher: what you have is the bottom four strings of the guitar capoed at the fifth fret.  So when you play an Em chord, it is an Am chord.  A G chord is a C chord, etc.  It took me a few weeks to get that straight but i have it down now. 

3. Regarding Making Music:

In terms of what you can play, fourths tuning opens up the instrument to new things.  I like lots of close harmonies and banjo type rolls, and I could not do them in standard tuning (I did try this and found that this tuning limited what I could play because the string intervals are too wide).  It does not sound like a guitar or a 12 string capoed.  I sounds just like a mandolin.  If the riffs are different than the conventional mandolin riffs, well, I don't think any one cares...and I don't hear any of those traditional mandolin riffs in my head anyway, so that is not what I am trying to produce. 

4. Regarding Naysayers:

You don't know until you try.  Take your extra mandolin and tune it up this way and try it for a week and then post your comments.  Don't tell me it doesn't work or doesn't sound good or is unmusical or sounds like a guitar or is cheating until you try it. 

5. The bottom line:

My ADGC tuning allows the music I hear in my head to come out on the mandolin.  I control the instrument not the other way around.

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## Jim Broyles

I don't know about any flabbiness in the G string with GHS Silk and Bronze .040 G strings. The real problem is the flabbiness of the C and G strings when they are supposed to be E and A, plus the fact that it's the bottom four strings of a guitar capoed at 5 (actually 17.) Who plays everything on the bottom four strings? A D F# B makes a ton more sense to me but only if I really didn't feel like learning how to play the mandolin. String tension is about 12 total pounds less, but most of it is in the two highest strings. They are pretty slack and sound very weak, to my ears.  You like it? Play it that way. I'm done.

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## Brent Hutto

Heck, I bought a mandolin because it's tuned in fifths. Can't bow a fiddle worth a lick so I took up guitar but every so often I gotta play on an instrument where the notes are right where I want them to be!

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## axeman2000x

Jim, 

I have medium gauge strings on, and no slackness on the high strings in my tuning...nice full tone.  I suppose if you are using really light gauge strings then tuning down might be an issue, but it has not been my experience. 

(Slackness of the G string is something I have noticed in music stores...might be due to cheap/dead strings or low tuning the mandolin?)

Regarding technique: on the (electric) guitar, you can bend strings and sustain and make it sing.  But you don't usually bend the lower strings as much on a guitar.  Because you can't musically bend double course strings, it is better to orgainize the alternative tuned mandolin as if it were the lower strings of the guitar so you don't find yourself trying to do all those Chuck Berry licks that involve bends that don't work on mandolin.  

Again, try it.  You seem really stuck on saying that ADGC tuning doesn't work...or doesn't make sense, etc.  Experiment first...then draw conclusions. 

(Or just decide it is not something you are interested in and move on.)

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## i-vibe

slack in string?....easy enough remedy....use a thicker gauge string.  :Wink: 

just like using 5ths tuning on a bass.....

_oh my gawd, the E string is too flabby when tuned down to a low C_  :Frown: 

that's why they make different gauge strings....put a .125 -.130 on there and pooof... NO flab.

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## i-vibe

> but every so often I gotta play on an instrument where the notes are right where I want them to be!



which brings us full circle back to these guys that wanna use their alternate tunings. the notes are right where they want 'em to be!

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## Jim Broyles

GHS Silk & Bronze are .011, .015, .026 and .040 -    IOW, medium. A tuned to G and E tuned to C = flabby. Weak tone. I did it. I'm not just an automatic naysayer, I tried it. Sounds Crummy to my ears. The end. Not stuck, it just doesn't make sense to me. You like it?  Play it. Now I'm really done.

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## i-vibe

_right gauge strings...must use right gauge strings.....must use......_

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## axeman2000x

I should think a plain steel .011 string should ring loud and true even tuned down to C.  But if you want to maintain something like the 18 lbs of string tension that you have with an .011 steel string tuned to E, then you would have to go with a heavier gauge.  In my case, I don't notice any slackness with .011's--I am guessing I still have at least 12-14 lbs on the E string even with it tuned down to C.  Slightly less tension means reduced pressure on your instrument and less strain on your fingers, which I view as good things.

Like i-vibe implies above, at worst this is a minor tweaking issue, not an insurmountable flaw.

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## JeffD

Sure you can do it. But you would be avoiding one of the big advatages the manolin has, which is the amount of notes you can reach with one hand. With the frets close together it just makes sense to tune the strings farther apart.

It would be like rigging a fly rod with a quarter ounce jig. Sure you could do it, but you avoid the advantages of the fly rod.


Also, if you tune the mandolin like something else you will tend to see it like a small version of something else. You will tend to play it like a small version of something else. You won't be playing the mandolin, you will be playing something else on the mandolin. You might miss the possibilities of the mandolin itself.

All that being said, it will probably sound fine.

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## axeman2000x

Or you might be opening up the mandolin to new possibilities, and perhaps even bringing it to a larger audience?  From what I gather here (from some of the posts), the mandolin has a sort of identity crisis if the tuning is altered.  If you use a different tuning on guitar it is still a guitar.  For example, Keith Richards has been played a five string G-tuned guitar since the early 70s.  It is part of his distinctive signature _ guitar_ sound.

Does this phenomenon speak to something about the mandolin community's self doubt and thus it's desire to place the mandolin in a specific musical niche that is distinct from other plucked string instruments such as the uke, the banjo or the guitar?

Well, don't sell this instrument short.  It's double course strings and the distinctive bright percussive tone give the mandolin a clear identity in my view, not the tuning...which is only something the player (and perhaps the rare expert listener) would be aware of.

Anyway, I hope that my posts will help the OP or anyone like him get and keep the gig. There are tons of guitar players and very few mandolinists, so there are opportunties for gigs to help liven up acoustic acts, etc.  If you can wail on the guitar or bass, with a few weeks of intense practice you can wail on the mandolin too...and it won't sound like a guitar no matter what you play.

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## MikeEdgerton

Take some time to visit the Posting Guidelines, you're getting really close to trolling and we don't do that here.

Posting Guidelines

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## mandroid

How many Violins are tuned in 4ths?  its the other cousin of the mandolin..
 where the tuning intervals came from.. 

Violins , Violas and Cellos are all 5ths  ... 
 Im going to go pour a drink from a 5th right now
 :Wink:

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## delsbrother

Axeman, do you have any recordings/youtube vids featuring this tuning?

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## axeman2000x

I will try to record something in the near future.

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## JeffD

> Does this phenomenon speak to something about the mandolin community's self doubt and thus it's desire to place the mandolin in a specific musical niche that is distinct from other plucked string instruments such as the uke, the banjo or the guitar?
> 
> .


Not in the slightest. 

I think there is a huge difference between investigating alternate tunings for their potential (I have a mandolin I keep in calico tuning), and tuning an instrument the way your previous instrument was tuned because thats what you are comfortable with.

The first is seeking new frontiers and musical growth. Making the mandolin new again. The other is mitigating the uncertainty of the new instrument by seeking comfort with the familiar.

There is nothing inherently wrong with either approach mind you, I just think its better not to confuse them.

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## Jim Broyles

> Not in the slightest. 
> 
> *I think there is a huge difference between investigating alternate tunings for their potential (I have a mandolin I keep in calico tuning), and tuning an instrument the way your previous instrument was tuned because thats what you are comfortable with.
> 
> The first is seeking new frontiers and musical growth. Making the mandolin new again. The other is mitigating the uncertainty of the new instrument by seeking comfort with the familiar.
> *
> There is nothing inherently wrong with either approach mind you, I just think its better not to confuse them.


Agree 100%

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## axeman2000x

> Not in the slightest. 
> 
> I think there is a huge difference between investigating alternate tunings for their potential (I have a mandolin I keep in calico tuning), and tuning an instrument the way your previous instrument was tuned because thats what you are comfortable with.
> 
> The first is seeking new frontiers and musical growth. Making the mandolin new again. The other is mitigating the uncertainty of the new instrument by seeking comfort with the familiar.
> 
> There is nothing inherently wrong with either approach mind you, I just think its better not to confuse them.


So the real issue that is sticking in the craw of some of you is that you think I am avoiding new frontiers and musical growth?  I don't agree with that assessment.  It is about making the instrument play what I want it to play, and because of the big intervals in standard tuning, you simply can't do lots of close harmonies (Edit: "double stops"), close arpeggios, etc.  And I still had to work hard finding all the new chord forms on my own, improving my right hand technique, getting used to the small fretboard, training myself not to try to do bends, palm muting and other guitar specific skills that don't really work on mandolin.  While it is tuned in fourths, the ADGC tuning is not a direct match to a guitar or bass. (I discuss all this above).

The bottom line: I don't want to be limited by the instrument so I devised a way to make the instrument play what I want it to and yet still sound like a mandolin.  I suspect that the large intervals in standard tuning lulls the typical player into a "traditional box" that is not in touch with the kind of music an American pub audience wants to hear all night.  My acoustic group plays everything from old timey stuff to Neil Young to Rolling Stones and CCR and even LaGrange by ZZ Top.  I am not saying that a traditional style player could not do a good job covering this range...but I think the tuning issue stacks the cards against you.

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## wreded

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!  Deep breath everybody.
No one has said anyone *has* to play mandolin in "traditional" tuning.
i also come from a guitar background and know quite a few different tunings for guitar that make some tunes either more easily playable or possible in the first place.  Different tunings actually make the guitar a different instrument from my perspective.
After picking up mandolin (and a little bit of initial confusion) i have no problems going back and forth.  Of course i'm not a gigging musician either.  Do what works for You and serves the music, that's the bottom line.
Personally i haven't exhausted the possibilities of "traditional" tuning and find that, for me, i can more easily find melodies and harmonies without over thinking.  (Not that i'm strong in *that* department either!)
Do what's best for the music and, as time allows, try out "traditional" tuning to see if it makes more sense.  If it doesn't, no harm done.

And let us know how Your mandolin journey goes.  As You can see, we're all interested.

Dave

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## cstewart

I have nothing to add to the tuning debate, but here's a chord generator that should work regardless of how your mandolin is strung:

http://www.mandochords.com/

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## JeffD

> So the real issue that is sticking in the craw of some of you is that you think I am avoiding new frontiers and musical growth?  I don't agree with that assessment.  It is about making the instrument play what I want it to play, and because of the big intervals in standard tuning, you simply can't do lots of close harmonies (Edit: "double stops"), close arpeggios, etc. .


Well I would of course take issue with what close harmonies and close arpeggios one can't do on the mandolin in standard tuning. Mandolin players have been doing them for eons, but perhaps not fingered the way you intend.

More to the point, if it is about making the mandolin play what you want it to play, as you say, then I am wrong in my comment. Because I have been trying to do the very same thing most of my adult life.   :Grin:   :Crying: 

I was confused by your statement earlier that you did it "to sound like a mandolin and still be able to step in and start gigging right away." My apologies if I read too much into it.

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## mandroid

If you got the gig , play the thing, tuned however you choose , and they still come across with cash,
 then it's all good.   :Wink: 

Whatever floats your Boat ..

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## Jim Broyles

> I suspect that the large intervals in standard tuning lulls the typical player into a "traditional box" that is not in touch with the kind of music an American pub audience wants to hear all night. My acoustic group plays everything from old timey stuff to Neil Young to Rolling Stones and CCR and even LaGrange by ZZ Top. I am not saying that a traditional style player could not do a good job covering this range...but I think the tuning issue stacks the cards against you.


Yeah. That darn Grisman. Can't play a bleedin' thing people want to hear. Neither can Thile, Marshall (either one) or even our own Jim Richter. He has a heckuva time getting his standard tuned mandolins to sound good doing blues and rock. Can't be done.

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## i-vibe

ok, this is getting to be much like a conversation between two folks w opposing religious or political views.....

no matter how much they go round and round they're never gonna change the other's viewpoint. dig?

seems like we got more important things to talk about...like which pick we all prefer.  :Wink:

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## axeman2000x

> I have nothing to add to the tuning debate, but here's a chord generator that should work regardless of how your mandolin is strung:
> 
> http://www.mandochords.com/


Wow, this is really helpful...it does work for ADGC. Thanks!!

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## axeman2000x

I just checked out Jim Richter on youtube, and he does a good job translating some of the guitar riffs (double stops) I was talking about to mandolin in standard tuning.  Here a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpWys...eature=related.  In my tuning when I play this same song I have more open chords (F and C chords, as on the guitar), and I like that fuller open chord sound, but obviously with some dedication and study one can translate these things to mandolin in standard tuning without losing too much.

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## axeman2000x

For the record, I think I might have overstated my case on the virtues of the fourths tuning.  As I listen to more mandolin music and develop my ear more I will seek to master traditional tuning to tap into the more traditional signature sounds of the instrument.  That said, if you are playing a lot of pop or rock-oriented music (including 60s and 70s style folk rock and/or country rock) and are expected to fill the niche usually filled by a lead guitar on the original recordings, fouths tuning works well and does still sound like a mandolin (tone-wise at least).    

BTW: My group is working on a recording of Suzy Q by CCR.  I play the distinctive riff on the mandolin.  I will post a link to it here in a few weeks after we get together to finish the recording.

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## Mandolin Mick

If you want to hear & see some rock mandolin playing that will blow your mind ... watch Dash Crofts of Seals & Crofts at the California Jam `74 on YouTube (Ridin' Thumb & other selections). I thought somebody was playing a Les Paul through a Marshall amp. It's him on the mandolin in standard mandolin tuning!

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## Steve Ostrander

I would just tune in 5ths and learn to play it, in case somebody ever offers to let you play their Loar... :Smile:

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## JeffD

> I would just tune in 5ths and learn to play it, in case somebody ever offers to let you play their Loar...


Could happen. One never knows.  :Laughing:

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## mandroid

If leads are your forte', and the guitar is embedded in the lower brain stem , 
go for Chicago  tenor Guitar tuning. DGBE
 :Coffee:

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## Jim Broyles

> If leads are your forte', and the guitar is embedded in the lower brain stem , 
> go for Chicago  tenor Guitar tuning. DGBE


 That's why I said that A D F# B was more intuitive to me than A D G C. I have never centered my lead guitar playing on the the bottom four strings.  I still see no reason to tune a mandolin in  4ths.

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## axeman2000x

Okay, here is the recording I said I would post.  All the mandolin was recorded one take with just a cheap mic plugged straight into the computer (using GarageBand).  I play all the parts except the bass.  Yes, I am playing mandolin in nonstandard fourths tuning. 

http://www.divshare.com/download/12770222-c1b

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## axeman2000x

> Okay, here is the recording I said I would post.  All the mandolin was recorded one take with just a cheap mic plugged straight into the computer (using GarageBand).  I play all the parts except the bass.  Yes, I am playing mandolin in nonstandard fourths tuning. 
> 
> http://www.divshare.com/download/12770222-c1b


Looks like about 30 hits from this site already.  With all the resistance last month, I would have thought someone would be telling me it just sounds wrong...like a uke or a capoed guitar played in the higher octave.

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## Jim Broyles

Okay, you want a critique?  First, the initial note in the riff should be the flat 7 not the root.  As far as the sound, A to C leaves too many notes unavailable or hard to get at (BTW,  why did you do it in Eb?) and standard tuning gives you an open E to do this song in and a low G to be the flat 3rd. It took me 30 seconds to cop the riff and play along with you and mine sounded like a mandolin not a little guitar. Other than that it was fine.

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## axeman2000x

> Okay, you want a critique?  First, the initial note in the riff should be the flat 7 not the root.  As far as the sound, A to C leaves too many notes unavailable or hard to get at (BTW,  why did you do it in Eb?) and standard tuning gives you an open E to do this song in and a low G to be the flat 3rd. It took me 30 seconds to cop the riff and play along with you and mine sounded like a mandolin not a little guitar. Other than that it was fine.


Listen closer and you should be able to hear a flat 7th...I am playing a double stop.  (Not trying to copy anyone else anyway, but can't resist the urge to correct your erroneous claim.) I am not claiming I got a deep rich tone here (tone is kinda thin...I used a cheap dynamic vocal mic with no preamp and the level was really low).  But a little guitar?  (What does a little guitar sound like anyway?)

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## Jim Broyles

The fills and solos sound like guitar riffs. Claim wasn't erroneous - you are playing the root. Flat 7 and root together sounds dissonant, and all I could hear  was the root. 

Due to the nature of the relationship  of the strings to one another on a mandolin, the typical mandolin licks have a uniquely mandolin sound. What you played was not awful sounding, it just  didn't sound like what people who know what a mandolin sounds like expect to hear.  

Why I disdain stuff like "Losing My Religion" because the mandolin is simply being used as a novelty rather than adding "mandolin" to the sound. Your "Suzy Q" sounds like a high guitar, not a mandolin.

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## axeman2000x

Yes, the double stop is dissonnant.  If you can hear the dissonance you are hearing the flat 7th and the root together. 

Okay, if it sounds like a little guitar because of the licks, I accept that.   The licks are indeed adapted from the guitar.  I am not sure what a purist mandolin approach to susie q would be...it might sound cool...as I am not a purist, I obviously could not produce such a thing.  I leave that to you to record if you feel up to the challenge.

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## axeman2000x

"Bluegrass" approach to CCR, "Pickin on CCR" includes "Susie Q."  Short clip on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Pickin-Creeden.../dp/B00000J7VJ

Is this purist enough for you?  To me this is a gimmick...but to each their own.

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## Jim Broyles

Look, once more, and hopefully finally, I am not a "mandolin purist."  I am a musician who played guitar for 43 years, then decided to play mandolin. I wanted to play _mandolin_, not a little, double-course guitar. Therefore, I learned to play all those familiar blues licks, but on the mandolin, and doing the different things you have to do when the notes aren't right there like you're used to. And I listened to mandolin playing that I liked. Bluegrass, mostly, but not exclusively. And I stole the licks I liked the most. Then I incorporated them into playing the songs I had already been playing for years - but now the fills and licks sounded mandolin-y, not just like I was too lazy to figure out how to translate them from guitar to mandolin so I re-tuned my mandolin. Listen to Jim Richter on YouTube. He plays blues and rock from a guitar background on a standard-tuned mandolin, but he sounds highly cool doing it, because he's playing _mandolin,_ NOT little guitar.

Pickin' on Creedence = lame. I didn't say it had to be bluegrass to be good. Your arrangement is fine. Harp is cool. Just play mandolin on it.

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## axeman2000x

It is really about making good music.  You may not be amazed by my playing, but I have practiced and performed 200+ hours to get as good as I am since starting in June.  (Check out my tremolo picking on the recording...something that I had to develop...and am working on daily to improve).  I'm not going to tell you that all your effort and identity that you have put into developing your more traditional approach is wrong.  We are really just apples and oranges. I came to the mandolin as a working musician only...wanting an instrument with a timbre and pitch that projects well as a lead instrument in an acoustic group.  I had no interest in the mandolin before my acoustic group came together and I found that my acoustic guitar playing was not cutting it as a lead instrument over the top of the bass and other acoustic guitar.  I tried the mandolin that one of the guys had sitting around, and our sound come together almost magically (after I figured out how to make the mandolin work for me).  And I have been working ever since...14 paid gigs since June...and bookings through the end of the year.  There are other mandolinists around, but I think I am the only one who is actually working.  Oh...and we play "Losing my Religion" at every gig...people love it. (We would play "Maggie Mae" too if someone could sing it)

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## Jim Broyles

Okay. I'm out, again. Enjoy your mandolin.

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## Hal Loflin

Hey axeman...I thought it was very good. I too came from a guitar background (20 years) to mandolin. To me...one of the great things about music is that one can play many different instruments in many different ways and create music that pleases. You have done this and have also found work. Congrats!!! Plow on!

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## delsbrother

> Looks like about 30 hits from this site already.  With all the resistance last month, I would have thought someone would be telling me it just sounds wrong...like a uke or a capoed guitar played in the higher octave.


I was going to say it sounds out of tune.  :Laughing:   But that style fits in with the song, I guess. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a "problem" with how you tune your mandolin, if it works for you. I'm certainly not a "purist" of any kind. But as far as it being a particularly ground-breaking innovation.. well, you're entitled to your opinion.

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## Mandolin Mick

Sounds like a mandolin tuned like a guitar. You might as well play the guitar. Instead of stubbornly sticking to your guns, you could've learned how to sight read musical notation by now and started to learn how to play the mandolin.

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## JeffD

> Why I disdain stuff like "Losing My Religion" because the mandolin is simply being used as a novelty rather than adding "mandolin" to the sound. .


Jim I think you have something there. I mean sure, someone is going to say we cannot hear the intent, but I have never been enthusiastic about the mandolin in that song, and this is the feeling I come away with.

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## JeffD

> Looks like about 30 hits from this site already.  With all the resistance last month, I would have thought someone would be telling me it just sounds wrong...like a uke or a capoed guitar played in the higher octave.


Its fine. And if I didn't know it was tuned in fourths that would not have been my first thought. 

If you told me that you tuned a mandolin in fourths to get some new cool sound from it, and then that was your example, I would be underwhelmed, because I would be expecting something really new and different sounding.

But it got the job done, which was your goal, and I can't argue with that.

I suppose one might listen and say "did you really need a mandolin to do that?" but I can make that comment about a lot of music done on a standard tuned mandolin where the player doesn't take advantage of what is mandolinny about the mandolin.

My objection was not with how it might sound, it is more with motiviation, stretching the boundaries of our expectations of the instrument with alternate tunings, versus short cutting the learning curve because its easier.

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## axeman2000x

I am not claiming that I am making some grand innovation, just wanting something that works for gigging purposes.  Here is another recording...Friend of the Devil...it is a live recording with mistakes and things I would change, but shows my approach to using mandolin as a lead instrument in an acoustic group.  Not claiming it is unique or sounds like traditional fiddle oriented mandolin.  And yes I am a little out of tune at one point on this one. 
http://www.divshare.com/download/12820334-2f7

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## Earl Gamage

I'd like to point out that you could get your bass and rythym player to back off a tad when you play lead on your acoustic guitar.  That has to be done any time an acoustic plays lead because it's the quietest lead instrument unless you want to count the bass.

Good work on the rythym and the fills with your mandolin.  I don't think the leads will sound just right to most folks on this board even though why it's different is kind of undefinable and you might not notice it if you did not know it was guitar tuned.

Have fun and play it your way. :Smile:

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## axeman2000x

> Good work on the rythym and the fills with your mandolin.  I don't think the leads will sound just right to most folks on this board even though why it's different is kind of undefinable and you might not notice it if you did not know it was guitar tuned.
> 
> Have fun and play it your way.


Thanks.  The solo is rough so that is probably part of why folks would not dig it as much as the fills, etc.  

The other issue is that it is not really guitar tuned...as Jim B has pointed out vigorously.  A guitarist can't just instantly pick up my mandolin and start playing familiar songs.  It is a tuning that I feel closely retains the timbre and range of the standard tuned mandolin yet is guitarist friendly for the reasons I have described above.

There is a certain banjo quality to the way I play the walk down riff in "Friend of the Devil" because I have an open G droning (not the low G of standard tuning but an octave higher as on banjo).  I suppose you can find a way to do that in standard tuning too, but not obvious to me.

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## delsbrother

In the second clip I think the arrangement kind of lets you down (I mean, you're literally playing a mandolin-voiced version of the guitar part). For me it's not just a question of timbre, it's a question of phrasing. In the bluesy number you first posted you can get away with more guitar-based ideas.

Here's a pretty good version in standard tuning, full of the kind of licks and fills that most mandolin players like to emulate. YMMV. Pretty sure the mando player's booked solid, too!  :Smile:

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## axeman2000x

> In the second clip I think the arrangement kind of lets you down (I mean, you're literally playing a mandolin-voiced version of the guitar part). For me it's not just a question of timbre, it's a question of phrasing. In the bluesy number you first posted you can get away with more guitar-based ideas.
> 
> Here's a pretty good version in standard tuning, full of the kind of licks and fills that most mandolin players like to emulate. YMMV. Pretty sure the mando player's booked solid, too!


This is the first time I have been criticized for playing something too close to the original.  

Regarding your implicit (and unfavorable) comparison to Dawg...well at first I thought it was sort of absurd because I am a local guy making something like $25-50 a gig and I have been playing mandolin for only about four months.  But then I thought, gee whiz...this guy is taking what I am doing seriously enough to make that sort of comparison and not think it totally absurd.  In a way, that is a really nice compliment...even though I don't think you meant to be so supportive.

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## delsbrother

The only thing I fully support is _athletics_.  :Laughing: 

I'm not _comparing_ you to Grisman. I'm trying to show you what a mandolin sounds like. It's a lot easier to get those sounds in standard tuning, but I'm assuming you want to sound like that. Listen to your comping vs. Grisman's, for instance - they sound really different, not just because of the obvious difference in your skill levels, but because of the voicing of the chords. The double stops sound different too, even in the original track.

If all you want to do is "pass" as a mandolin for a non-critical audience, you've obviously succeeded; I don't think it's a bad sound at all. I just thought it was comical how you kept implying it was your tuning that was getting you gigs, while other mandolin "purists" using standard tuning were not. There are many mandolinists who have overcome the _burden_ of our tuning, LOL.

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## Mike Bunting

> This is the first time I have been criticized for playing something too close to the original.


 Really! I never look to see if a band doing a cover replicates the original exactly. In the first place, it's impossible and secondly I like to hear a creative interpretation. It's no compliment to tell someone that they sound like someone else, I'd prefer to hear your ideas not rehashed borrowed licks.

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## axeman2000x

It could be argued that "Perfect is the enemy of the good."  It all depends on what your goals are and what kind of music you want to make.   The original poster seemed like someone more like me...he didn't want to play like Dawg or anything that lofty...he just wanted to add something different to the sound of his group.  I got into all this discussion here because I had worked out a method for achieving that same practical goal.  I was excited to share my approach, and surprised by what seemed like a lot of folks telling me it couldn't work, when I knew that I was using it to good (although not "perfect") results in a working band.

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## axeman2000x

I found a solution to the controversy!!  I shall henceforth call my fourths tuned instrument an "Octolin."  Since the only issue any of you seem to have with my playing is that it is not mandoliny enough, that problem is now resolved: It is not mandoliny because I am playing the octolin not the mandolin.  Now I just need a luthier to build me an instrument that retains the basic timbre of the mandolin but does not look like any familar model so when people say, "what is that ....some sort of mandolin?" I can respond, "Nope, it is an Octolin."

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## JEStanek

You'll hear "What's with the little guitar?" Even more than the rest of us!  :Smile: 

Jamie

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## axeman2000x

Okay, here is my Octolin Wiki.  I think this just about covers it.  It is really geared to explaining what I am doing rather than to converting anyone to "octolin" tuned mandolin.

Octolin uses a standard mandolin tuned to A D G C (low to high).  It sounds similar to mandolin in terms of timbre and picking technique. However, it is tuned in fourths (like a guitar) and involves a playing approach more similar to guitar than to violin or mandolin. While the timbre is distinctly that of a mandolin, the octolin tuning and approach stems from the guitar tradition and involves scales and chord voicings that have been essentially transplanted or translated from the guitar. The result is a somewhat hybrid sound and approach distinct from the mandolin tradition. While one can mimic traditional mandolin somewhat on the octolin (chop chords, etc.), it not designed as a substitute for mandolin in traditional fiddle-tuned mandolin music, such as bluegrass, etc. 

Samples of my Octolin playing: 

http://www.divshare.com/download/12770222-c1b
http://www.divshare.com/download/12820334-2f7

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## delsbrother

Wouldn't "Guitarlin" be more appropriate? Though I guess you could get into trademark trouble..  :Wink: 

You know, every time we discuss guitar/mando hybrids (like the M6, Mondo Mando, etc.) there's always someone who can't understand why _anyone_ would want such a thing. Well, here's proof - there is at least one person!

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## axeman2000x

This discussion has motivated me to explore more traditional mandolin style on my Octolin.  Seems I was already playing the "Bill Monroe" voiced chop chord, which is actually more guitar voiced than some of you might have realized.  In terms of the David Grisman type double stop tremolo, it requires advanced picking skill but can be done with Octolin chord voicings.  However, there is something I have overlooked until now: 

 When I compare the two tunings on my mandolin, the Octolin tuning is brighter and more twangy than the mandolin tuning, due partly to the G string sounding louder, fuller, and brighter when it is brought up to A.  On mandolin, the G string has a darker timbre due to its lower string tension (I suppose that some players attenuate that with a larger gauge string...I have a .040 on mine).  Meanwhile the E string is really taut and tends to have a "pingy" tone (with a .011).  That distinctive sound is toned down greatly on Octolin. So on mandolin you have a rich mix of timbres available due to the uneven string tensions.  Someone like Grisman really showcases that range of timbres, creating a rich complex sound (apart from typical "wide" mandolin voicings).  Because the string tensions are much more uniform on Octolin, the timbre changes across strings is reduced, and the overall timbre is much like the D and A strings on Mandolin.  There are pros and cons to this timbre difference, but it does make octolin a good choice if you want to do a lot of simple guitar like strumming of open chords to fill out the sound in an acoustic duo or trio.  You Nashville guys who want a high tuned part that blends well with the acoustic guitars (yets adds a distinct tonal color) should also consider the potential of an Octolin tuned mandolin.

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## smsuryan

i did that when i first got a mandolin until i realized i had an 8 string ukelele...lol..then i tuned it to E so it would match my guitar when i record....but hey whatever works for you yknow..

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## axeman2000x

New original song showing the unique "Octolin" sound for old timey music...again a distinct sound that is not "mandoliny" (actually the "melody" could not be played this way in standard tuning).

http://www.divshare.com/download/13117856-c7e

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## cstewart

Sounds nice!

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## axeman2000x

> Sounds nice!


Thanks!

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## axeman2000x

Here is another recording of an original song that my trio finished yesterday.  It is called "Bitter Soul." I think it shows how well the octolin tuning can blend with guitar to provide a lush open chord rhythm.  It also demonstrates double stop tremolo with major and minor thirds in some parts.  The solo sounds "mandoliny" but does involves several guitar-oriented blues licks. 

http://www.divshare.com/download/13175723-483

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## Earl Gamage

> New original song showing the unique "Octolin" sound for old timey music...again a distinct sound that is not "mandoliny" (actually the "melody" could not be played this way in standard tuning).
> 
> http://www.divshare.com/download/13117856-c7e


I like your playing.  It's apparent that you have really gotten used to your octolin tuning.  Much more in the groove than your earlier posts.

The only thing I personally don't like is it sounds like you are using a click track or track of some type to keep time, which is ok, I just like the more live sound better.

I think that's great work figuring out something you enjoy and it works for you.

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## JeffD

> That distinctive sound is toned down greatly on Octolin. So on mandolin you have a rich mix of timbres available due to the uneven string tensions.  ... creating a rich complex sound...  Because the string tensions are much more uniform on Octolin, the timbre changes across strings is reduced, and the overall timbre is much like the D and A strings on Mandolin...  ... octolin a good choice if you want to do a lot of simple guitar like strumming of open chords to fill out the sound in an acoustic duo or trio.


Absolutely nothing there I can disagree with.

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## axeman2000x

> I like your playing.  It's apparent that you have really gotten used to your octolin tuning.  Much more in the groove than your earlier posts.
> 
> The only thing I personally don't like is it sounds like you are using a click track or track of some type to keep time, which is ok, I just like the more live sound better.
> 
> I think that's great work figuring out something you enjoy and it works for you.


Thanks Earl.  Your point about the "click track" is well taken. 

Things that I have done to improve my sound and performance:

1) The latest two recordings use a Nady SPC-25 condenser microphone.  It is only $40 and does not require phantom power.  It sounds great for recording acoustic instruments and can be used in live situations as well. (Earlier recordings used dynamic mics.)

2.) I use medium strings (.011 -.040) but just changed the "E" string to a slightly beefer .0115 to regain some of the "pluckiness" on that string that gets lost when tuned down down to G. (This change is only on "Bitter Soul".)

3.) I have found a pick that works better for me: the large Fender 346 celluloid pick in "Heavy".

4.) I have been working on double stop tremolo, and more precision on my single note tremolo.  I play fewer guitar like runs and scales and use a lot more tremolo.

5.) I have been picking further up the neck to get a warmer sound (depending on what sound I am trying to get in a particular song.)

6.) In fast songs, I have been doing less washboard-like (partially muted moveable chords) rhythms and doing more refined "bluegrass" chopping, although in a trio you sometimes do need more than just 2-4 chops to keep fast songs driving along.

7.) I have been attempting to maximize my one octave up open G string as a "drone string" in the many many songs in G. (In octolin tuning, the "A string" is tuned down to a G.)  This is the case in "Cup of Joe."  

8.) I have been listening to mandolin recordings...something I had never done before picking up the mandolin in June.

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## mandroid

One of my friends  left the Doghouse bass at home and showed up at our jam with a  baritone uke sized
4 silicon stringed Bass and a small amp, that sounded pretty good . 

It's tuned in 4ths like a Bass ..

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## J. Galoshes Esq.

When I first started playing I tuned in tritones. 

It gave me the sound I was used to getting from playing other instruments.

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## axeman2000x

Thoughts on a fouths tuned mandolin based about 6 months of semi-pro experience....

For live performance I have switched from mandolin to what I am calling a Cuatro (small four stringed guitar).  The body of the instrument is simply a Lanikai Tenor Ukulele (LU-21T) using special (nylon-based) strings and my A D G C tuning. http://www.lanikaiukes.com/images/Pr...ies/LU-21T.jpg

 I don't have a recording, but the timbre is very Latin/Brazilian... sort of a cross between a requinto guitar and a flat top round hole mandolin.  I play it the same way as the octolin tuned mandolin described here previously. It does not sound like a Uke, largely because I use a pick and have totally different tuning and strings (non re-entrant tuning; two wound classical guitar strings; higher tension strings that respond well to mandolin-style tremolo picking).  (I also scoop the midrange on my amp to reduce any lingering Uke-like boxiness.)

Cons:

1. I have to amp the Cuatro (it is does not cut through like a F hole mandolin), which means hauling a small amp and fussing with a surface mount pickup. 

2. No string sets are manufactured for this and no two nylon based string brands sound alike.

3. The string tension is probably higher than this very lightly built $100 instrument was made to handle.

Pros:

1. It is vastly easier to play due to the longer scale and the single course nylon based strings.  An overall much more "forgiving" instrument.

2. I can bend strings for vibrato (as in ballads) for guitar like blues licks (but only about 1/2 step). A lot more "emotional" range as a solo instrument.

3. It has a fuller, sweeter tone that fits a three piece folk group better overall.  The members of my group like this timbre better for most of the pop rock blues sort of thing.  And I can do a reasonable "mandolin chop" on it using the Bluegrass approved chord voicing, so it even works okay for bluegrass type rhythm (not ideal though).

4. Gives me time to learn standard mandolin tuning and use that on some songs for authentic folksy mandolin sound.  Now that I have found something that works better for my needs, I can reserve the mandolin as the "specialty" instrument that many people on this list see it as, rather than the full range instrument that I needed to get through 2-3 hour gigs.  Much of what makes the mandolin so distinct is the fiddle tuning...which in my view is a little too much of a specialized sound for my needs, but an awesome sound for three for four songs each hour.

Finally...and most important in my view:

As I play all the same parts on the Cuatro as I have on the octolin tuned mandolin (but now slightly better), people have not really noticed the difference in instruments in performances.  This has been a real reality check for the tone freak in me.  The comments have not been wow that is really different, but "wow, it sounds so much like your mandolin.  I am really amazed!!"  It is sort of like the difference between playing an classical guitar and a steel string guitar...a guitarist will instantly know the difference, but the general audience really does not because it is only a slight variation in timbre.  But because the instruments look very different, people think that the sound difference should be noticeable to them, and are surprised that they really can't "hear" the difference in the band situation.

This lesson is something for folks on a "tone quest" to remember (and a shocker for me)... differences in timbre that are obvious to the expert go virtually unnoticed to almost everyone else in actual live performance!  If you aim to be a semi pro pub performer like me (someone who plays for money in the local gigging circuit), get a decently playable instrument that sounds good enough.  Then practice practice practice, both alone and with your group.  At that level it is almost completely a waste of time and money to invest in refining your "tone" through various tweaks, etc.  If you have the licks and are also a good combo player, the paying audience won't care that much about the timbre of your particular instrument.  And you can always rent or borrow a "fine" instrument if you record.

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## JeffD

> This lesson is something for folks on a "tone quest" to remember (and a shocker for me)... differences in timbre that are obvious to the expert go virtually unnoticed to almost everyone else in actual live performance!.


Others have corroborated your findings here, and it is kind of disconcerting.

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## delsbrother

> I have switched from mandolin to what I am calling a Cuatro (small four stringed guitar).


LOL, you realize there's already an instrument called that, right? Does your "Cuatro" sound like a Cuatro?

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## JEStanek

Cuatro Typically tuned ADF#B Venezuelan or BEADG Puerto Rican style.
Puerto Rican style shown below.


Jamie

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## EdSherry

Re the proposition that " differences in timbre that are obvious to the expert go virtually unnoticed to almost everyone else in actual live performance!': Tommy Tedesco, the late great LA-based session player, had a "stable" of 20+ instruments (banjos, mandos, etc.), all of which he tuned like the topmost strings of a guitar.  (E.g., his mandos were tuned DGBE.)  

He was a monster sightreader, and used the various instruments to lend a tonal "flavor" to the material he recorded, while still [generally] playing in the tuning he was most comfortable with.  

If the producer wanted an "authentic" mandolin sound, he could hire a "real" mandolin player.  But if all that was wanted was a "sonic flavor" (e.g., a 30 second scene of an Italian restaurant with a "mandolin" sound, and a 15-second scene of a Mississippi riverboat with a "riverboat banjo" sound), Tedesco could make that happen par excellence.

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## axeman2000x

I use the term Cuatro because it is generic for "small four stringed guitar."  You can call it the "Cuatro Americano" if it helps you keep from getting mixed up with the other various instruments that use the name (some of which have more than four strings).  I will post a recording in the future and you can judge for yourself what you think it sounds like. I just got back from playing a 2.5 hour gig on it, and it is a vast improvement on its Octolin predocessor in terms of tone and playablility...although it does not "cut through" without amplification.  (On an F hole mandolin you can really dig in and blast through; or you can back off and play very quietly depending on how hard to drive the strings with your picking hand.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuatro_(instrument)




> LOL, you realize there's already an instrument called that, right? Does your "Cuatro" sound like a Cuatro?

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## foldedpath

> Quote Originally Posted by axeman2000x
> This lesson is something for folks on a "tone quest" to remember (and a shocker for me)... differences in timbre that are obvious to the expert go virtually unnoticed to almost everyone else in actual live performance!.
> 			
> 		
> 
> Others have corroborated your findings here, and it is kind of disconcerting.


I wouldn't corroborate it, myself, and I don't think it's a necessary conclusion. What Axeman2000 has found is that _his_ audience can't tell the difference, with _his_ style of music, playing _his_ instruments with whatever sound reinforcement system _he's_ using. 

We don't all play the same music, to the same audiences. Some are more discerning about the details than others. I've played gigs where a majority of the audience are other acoustic musicians from the area, interested in checking out what we're doing. I'm absolutely sure an audience like that cares about which instruments we're playing, and how they sound through the PA system.

The quality of sound reinforcement makes a big difference too. Pickups can have a flattening-out effect on acoustic instruments, compared to using a clip-on or external microphone. A mandolin will still sound like a mandolin and not a banjo, but the more subtle distinctions in tone between different mandolins can be lost. The flattening-out effect is worse when instruments are run through a PA system designed mainly for vocal reproduction, that isn't flat in frequency response and can't extend smoothly into the lows and highs. I've heard band PA's where it wouldn't matter whether the artist was playing a $200 plywood-topped mandolin or a Gilchrist, because the sound reinforcement simply couldn't capture and reproduce the difference. 

Having an audience that "doesn't care about the difference" is a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you don't provide them with a sound that could help them care about it. We can't always play in perfect rooms, and some situations like loud bar gigs do pretty much force a "lowest common denominator" solution for sound reinforcement. But not all gigs are like that.

Anyway, sorry for the rant... this is a recurring theme in discussions we've had in the hardware section, with different people leaning in different directions on the question of "how good does your setup really need to be? Does it matter to the audience?" There is no single answer, because we're all playing different music to different audiences. The trick is to figure out what's worth delivering to _your_ specific audience, or the type of audience you want to attract.

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## axeman2000x

If you are going to gig at the pub level, you have to balance your idealism with pragmatism or you will quit and never progress as a working musician.  A gigging musician at the local level will often find conditions that are unfavorable but must be dealt with, such as playing outside in cold weather, or being crammed in corner of a bar with no line of sight to the audience, smoke filled rooms, uninterested audiences, etc.

Bill Monroe, a hero to many here, strikes me as someone who had a good balance of idealism and pragmatism with regard to being a working musician.  He was both an artist and an entertainer.  Had he been only an artist, I don't think he would have worked much and we would never have heard of him.  It could be argued that we like the sound of his old damaged mandolin because he is the one who played it...if he had played a round hole model, that could very well be the gold standard for Bluegrass today. I don't know.

That said, I think one has to have fun playing one's instrument, and for many of us that means fussing with strings, picks, etc.  Many of us can't really help ourselves from investing lots of energy into upgrading instruments and "tweaking tone" on a lifetime quest of sorts.  Hopefully the effort we are putting into that is not taking away from developing our chops.




> I wouldn't corroborate it, myself, and I don't think it's a necessary conclusion. What Axeman2000 has found is that _his_ audience can't tell the difference, with _his_ style of music, playing _his_ instruments with whatever sound reinforcement system _he's_ using. 
> 
> We don't all play the same music, to the same audiences. Some are more discerning about the details than others. I've played gigs where a majority of the audience are other acoustic musicians from the area, interested in checking out what we're doing. I'm absolutely sure an audience like that cares about which instruments we're playing, and how they sound through the PA system.
> 
> The quality of sound reinforcement makes a big difference too. Pickups can have a flattening-out effect on acoustic instruments, compared to using a clip-on or external microphone. A mandolin will still sound like a mandolin and not a banjo, but the more subtle distinctions in tone between different mandolins can be lost. The flattening-out effect is worse when instruments are run through a PA system designed mainly for vocal reproduction, that isn't flat in frequency response and can't extend smoothly into the lows and highs. I've heard band PA's where it wouldn't matter whether the artist was playing a $200 plywood-topped mandolin or a Gilchrist, because the sound reinforcement simply couldn't capture and reproduce the difference. 
> 
> Having an audience that "doesn't care about the difference" is a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you don't provide them with a sound that could help them care about it. We can't always play in perfect rooms, and some situations like loud bar gigs do pretty much force a "lowest common denominator" solution for sound reinforcement. But not all gigs are like that.
> 
> Anyway, sorry for the rant... this is a recurring theme in discussions we've had in the hardware section, with different people leaning in different directions on the question of "how good does your setup really need to be? Does it matter to the audience?" There is no single answer, because we're all playing different music to different audiences. The trick is to figure out what's worth delivering to _your_ specific audience, or the type of audience you want to attract.

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## JeffD

> I wouldn't corroborate it, myself, and I don't think it's a necessary conclusion. .


No, your comments are right. I guess the most correct way to say it is that in many (most cases?) the live musician cares about the tone and timbre a lot more than the live audience can discern.

There are those in the audience that do care, I have noticed. This in my experience seems to be most true in the case of a live studio audience at an FM radio station. Many more of the folks in such an audience are really really listening to the instruments as much as the tune or the playing, and are perhaps more used to making fine distinctions in tone. Another case would be small intimate audiences as we have at house concerts.  I had a classical harp and guitar duet play at a house concert and the audience of between 15 and 20 was very interested in the differences in sound between the different guitars and harps.

So, yea, there are exceptions worthy of noting.

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## axeman2000x

> I guess the most correct way to say it is that in many (most cases?) the live musician cares about the tone and timbre a lot more than the live audience can discern.


This is the spirit of what I was getting at.  But take heart in this: Live audiences (usually) do respond to whether anything magical is happening performance wise.   And probably the most important element in creating that magic is putting heart and soul into the performance.

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## axeman2000x

I forgot that I said I would post a recording of my "Cuatro Americano."  Here is the rhythm part for "Wichita Lineman" (recorded crudely in one take through my computer mic.) http://www.divshare.com/download/14028629-7fc

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## mandroid

Yea as above, theres a 'Chicago' tuning for Tenor guitars,  DGBE,  
so the guitar people still unconvinced they can learn the violin
interval tuning of the mandolin, might go there..

Or they might just get a tenor guitar , too...

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## Rob Gerety

I play guitar and mandolin.  I think guitar is best in 4ths (or standard) and a mandolin is best in 5ths.  There is a reason why the instruments gravitated to these standard tunings.

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## axeman2000x

But the downside of the fiddle tuned mandolin is that it is ill suited for closely voiced chords, like those in "Wichita Lineman."  It probably can be done, but it is not a natural fit.  Mandolin is great for fiddle songs, bluegrass, etc...but has not really broken into the rock/pop genre with the exception of a few tunes and a few bands.   And the reason is pretty obvious.  I now use standard tuned mandolin on a few songs, and it colors the overall sound of the group greatly, which is nice for a few songs.  It is the fiddle tuning moreso than the timbre of the instrument that gives it its unique sound, in my opinion as someone who has experiemented with alternative tunings. 




> I play guitar and mandolin.  I think guitar is best in 4ths (or standard) and a mandolin is best in 5ths.  There is a reason why the instruments gravitated to these standard tunings.

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